# Doom and gloom



## earl (Sep 8, 2009)

Do you ever think of things other than doom,gloom and what miserable wretches you are ?

 Hope this helps ...

   For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
(Isaiah 55:12) 


Yeah , I know


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## Miguel Cervantes (Sep 8, 2009)

earl said:


> Do you ever think of things other than doom,gloom and what miserable wretches you are ?
> 
> Hope this helps ...
> 
> ...


 



Sorry, the thread title just invoked the thought of this;

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/6TDqvD34hEA&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/6TDqvD34hEA&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


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## gordon 2 (Sep 8, 2009)

earl said:


> Do you ever think of things other than doom,gloom and what miserable wretches you are ?
> 
> Hope this helps ...
> 
> ...



This is not crazy.  Spend enought time is a peaceful hollar, and the sound of the the hills is as song and the trees racket your presence when you get into them. The mountains preform wonders.


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## gtparts (Sep 8, 2009)

earl said:


> Do you ever think of things other than doom,gloom and what miserable wretches you are ?
> 
> Hope this helps ...
> 
> ...




Not since Jesus came into my heart.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 8, 2009)

I was thinking about this very subject today.
People outside the church, the unbelievers of Christ
and those who reject God's word, must be mortified at some
of the comments and thoughts they hear coming from us.

But, here's why.
Receiving a relationship with God results in a few things happening in a person's life.
To consider God and His son Jesus Christ, means that I(we) must consider ourselves in light of what we've found in God.  What we find is that we aren't what we use to think we are.
We aren't as smart of we once thought.
We aren't as successful as we once thought.
We aren't as powerful as we thought we were.
We aren't as good as most people think we are.

But, thru Christ Jesus, we're more than we ever hoped.
There is no doom and gloom.
There's only honestly of our self-worth.
In private, we only compare ourselves to Jesus Christ.
That might sound like doom and gloom, but it isn't.
It's Godly understanding.


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## earl (Sep 8, 2009)

scooter1 said:


> Sorry, the thread title just invoked the thought of this;
> 
> <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/6TDqvD34hEA&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/6TDqvD34hEA&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


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## WTM45 (Sep 8, 2009)

That song meant it was bath time for us young 'uns on a Saturday nite!
Gave me the urge to go start the tub!


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## ddd-shooter (Sep 8, 2009)

Romans 8:1. 
Jesus did not come to condemn, but to save! 

Hallelujah!! 

I am a joyful Christian myself...


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## redneckcamo (Sep 8, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> That song meant it was bath time for us young 'uns on a Saturday nite!


    good times in the good ole days of our childhood longpast !!.....but not forgotten !!



and Earl .....you keep lookin up them scriptures !!


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## christianhunter (Sep 8, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I was thinking about this very subject today.
> People outside the church, the unbelievers of Christ
> and those who reject God's word, must be mortified at some
> of the comments and thoughts they hear coming from us.
> ...



I honestly can't add anything better than this one.


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## Lorri (Sep 8, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I was thinking about this very subject today.
> People outside the church, the unbelievers of Christ
> and those who reject God's word, must be mortified at some
> of the comments and thoughts they hear coming from us.
> ...



Awesome post.


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## Diogenes (Sep 9, 2009)

Ronnie T:   I don’t understand the sequence of thoughts.

You say that, “What we find (in receiving a relationship with God) is that we aren't what we use to think we are.”   I condensed your thought a bit there, but I think fairly and in accurate respect for the thought.  

You observe that this experience of ‘receiving’ causes one to realize that we are not as smart, successful, powerful, or good as we might have previously thought.

I’m all in favor of a bit of genuine humility, having seen first-hand the excesses of egomaniacal humans, and I can hardly disagree with the need for a bit of introspection and broad perspective.  

But from that truth, it looks to me as though a number of steps on the road to genuinely gaining that humility and perspective were skipped merrily over, and the leap was made that one need not work on ones own self in that regard, but need only somehow mysteriously gain , “Godly understanding.”

Now, you say that we are less than our egos wish, which is true enough, but then rather arrogantly let yourself off the hook, by citing your belief that all of those things are regained, “thru Christ Jesus, we're more than we ever hoped,” implying that your shortcomings are redeemed through believing rather than acting.  To my thought, to say that, “There's only honestly of our self-worth. In private, we only compare ourselves to Jesus Christ,” is akin to raising yourself up as a false idol, presuming that you have achieved as near to perfection as is possible by your belief in what you see as that perfection.  All the while forgiving yourself for being only human, after all . . .

So which is it?  Earl makes a sage thought here --  Are the Believers actually the wretched souls writhing in their inadequacies and awaiting the Saving hand of the invisible that they constantly assert, or do they feel that their belief mitigates that problem and counts them out of the equation by standing them above all of the other wretched souls on the planet?  

One can hardly be both humble and superior, can one?


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## christianhunter (Sep 9, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> Ronnie T:   I don’t understand the sequence of thoughts.
> 
> You say that, “What we find (in receiving a relationship with God) is that we aren't what we use to think we are.”   I condensed your thought a bit there, but I think fairly and in accurate respect for the thought.
> 
> ...



Maybe one day,by The Grace of GOD,you will understand.I do not know what it will take.I do not know if it will happen,as long as you rely on the "wisdom of self".GOD Knows!


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## Diogenes (Sep 9, 2009)

CH:  “Maybe one day,by The Grace of GOD,you will understand.I do not know what it will take.I do not know if it will happen,as long as you rely on the "wisdom of self".GOD Knows!”

Sir, maybe one day, by the Grace of learning, you will understand.  I do not know if it will happen, as long as you rely on the wisdom of superstition and ignorance.  

But do us all a favor – make a coherent thought and a rational bit of input.  The constant reliance on rationalizations and accusations and the Divine nature of your own infallible insight drawn solely from your Heavenly Host is wearing, at best, and quite silly at worst.  I’m not, you might notice, affected a whit by threats of brimstone and eternal torments – so do you have anything actually useful to add to the discussion other than your gloomy laments over the state of my soul, and your observation that only the Unknown is true?


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## mtnwoman (Sep 9, 2009)

Ain't no doom and gloom for me either.  

I'm a happy Christian, too.

I've seen doom and gloom in my life, but all that's over now...hallelujah!


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## Israel (Sep 9, 2009)

Thanks for the reminder Earl.
Bless you.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Sep 9, 2009)

Where's Lowjack?? He'll straighten all of this out..


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## Jeffriesw (Sep 9, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I was thinking about this very subject today.
> People outside the church, the unbelievers of Christ
> and those who reject God's word, must be mortified at some
> of the comments and thoughts they hear coming from us.
> ...




Thanks Ronnie T!


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## Jeffriesw (Sep 9, 2009)

scooter1 said:


> Sorry, the thread title just invoked the thought of this;
> 
> <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/6TDqvD34hEA&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/6TDqvD34hEA&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>




Man, I loved that show when I was a kid!


Still watch it some on the RFD channel (345 on Direct TV)
My kids look at me like I am crazy


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## CRT (Sep 9, 2009)

Diogenes,

You cannot understand the paradox because at this point in your life you are still a God-hater (just as I once was). You love your sin and your god is your intellect. Just as the Greeks in New Testament times (see Romans), in your unrighteousness you have suppressed the truth you know about God as not to be held accountable to Him. That is why you not only misunderstand Christianity, but lash out vehemently against those who have been born again. I pray God would "remove your heart of stone, and give you a heart of flesh" so that you can respond to His command to "repent and believe the Gospel". Then my friend, it will all make perfect sense.

God bless.


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## StriperAddict (Sep 9, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I was thinking about this very subject today.
> People outside the church, the unbelievers of Christ
> and those who reject God's word, must be mortified at some
> of the comments and thoughts they hear coming from us.
> ...


 
And Freedom the world does not know.

Grrrreat post, thanks.


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## tomkiller (Sep 9, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> Diogenes,
> 
> You cannot understand the paradox because at this point in your life you are still a God-hater (just as I once was). You love your sin and your god is your intellect. Just as the Greeks in New Testament times (see Romans), in your unrighteousness you have suppressed the truth you know about God as not to be held accountable to Him. That is why you not only misunderstand Christianity, but lash out vehemently against those who have been born again. I pray God would "remove your heart of stone, and give you a heart of flesh" so that you can respond to His command to "repent and believe the Gospel". Then my friend, it will all make perfect sense.
> 
> God bless.



Amen. Excellent post. A few Scriptures:

I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. John 17:14

v. 25 "O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me."

Romans 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

1 Corinthians 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

verse 27 "But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;"

2:12
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

11:32
But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Eph 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

1 Tim 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

verse 16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 9, 2009)

My dear friends, do not underestimate Earl. You might think he is "lost", but the Good Samaritan is also "lost" according to your definitions of salvation.

I find that Earl has a good understanding of the over brearing ignorance or rabbid patriotism of many Christians, not for what they claim or say, but in what they do and support.

I think he is honerable to  many christians as one can be to a hypocritical parent. Many christians are white washed and easily Jingos. They would just as well live in their self made salades worlds, do their lazy banking in a world to come and regrade as impossible-- the Lord's" impractical Kingdom" that they cannot possibly live in.

This might sound strange but I think Earls has both feet on the ground, and that ground is not a worldly island.


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## WTM45 (Sep 9, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> Diogenes,
> 
> You cannot understand the paradox because at this point in your life you are still a God-hater (just as I once was).



I disagree.
One can not hate what to them is not-existant.  Diogenes, like many others around the globe, has not replaced the basic need for proof of existance with "faith."

There exists no more a hatred than how you must view Allah, Buddah or Ra.

The "doom and gloom" is still quite a paradox, that is true.


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## ddd-shooter (Sep 9, 2009)

If all Christianity has to offer the world is gloom and doom, I won't be sharing the gospel with anyone. 
I will be telling people about the "Blessed Hope."

Or as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15
19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable

Or Jesus in John 16:
33These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.


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## CRT (Sep 9, 2009)

WTM45,

You assume that belief warrants reality. Therefore, if one doesn't believe in God, then one cannot hate God. Problem is, belief doesn't warrant reality. I can believe with all my heart that a gun is not loaded, but one fateful squeeze of the trigger may prove otherwise. It doesn't matter what we believe, what matters is what is true. And just because someone can suppress the truth they know about God, for His attributes from the creation are clearly seen, doesn't negate the reality that He exists. Therefore, it also doesn't negate the fact that those who, in their unrighteousness suppress the truth about God and worship the creature rather than the Creator, do so because of their hatred toward Him.

The "gods" you listed really don't exist, whether I believe in them or not. 

Fellow Christians,

I would humbly contend that we are not commanded to prove that God exists. The Bible never seeks to prove God's existense. Paul was clear in Romans that every man knows there is a God, but in unrighteousness suppresses that truth. David was clear in Psalm 14:1 that it is the fool who says in his heart, "There is no God". We are commanded to preach the Gospel. Those who repent and believe will be saved, and those who do not believe will be dammed. Soli Deo Gloria.


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## CRT (Sep 9, 2009)

Gordon2,

How do you define salvation?

Peace.


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## Tim L (Sep 9, 2009)

scooter1 said:


> Sorry, the thread title just invoked the thought of this;
> 
> <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/6TDqvD34hEA&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/6TDqvD34hEA&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>




I was a kid in elementary school the first time I heard that and laughed my head off....one of my classmates at that time, Kim Dukes, recorded that on his tape recorder, brought it to school, and turned it on during Mrs. Flowers english class...the whole class just exploded with laughter (something like 4th to 6th graders)....she asked who did it and off course no one admitted it.  About 7 of us that were "suspects" got paddled by Mr Jarrell, but it was alright, it was funny and from what I remembered he was snickering as he paddled us...that was a funny show, my grandad would start hollowing at "sunshine" whenever she was on, which didn't thrill my grandmother one bit...time sure does fly....


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## WTM45 (Sep 9, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> WTM45,
> 
> You assume that belief warrants reality. Therefore, if one doesn't believe in God, then one cannot hate God. Problem is, belief doesn't warrant reality. I can believe with all my heart that a gun is not loaded, but one fateful squeeze of the trigger may prove otherwise. It doesn't matter what we believe, what matters is what is true. And just because someone can suppress the truth they know about God, for His attributes from the creation are clearly seen, doesn't negate the reality that He exists. Therefore, it also doesn't negate the fact that those who, in their unrighteousness suppress the truth about God and worship the creature rather than the Creator, do so because of their hatred toward Him.
> 
> ...



Your faith is to be commended by your fellow believers.  But it in no way makes a concrete proof of the existance of a deity or of eternity.

Your simple disregard for the deities at the center of others' beliefs only reflects the exclusivity of your chosen belief system.


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## CRT (Sep 9, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Your faith is to be commended by your fellow believers.  But it in no way makes a concrete proof of the existance of a deity or of eternity.
> 
> Your simple disregard for the deities at the center of others' beliefs only reflects the exclusivity of your chosen belief system.



That's the scandal of the Gospel. I can't (and don't have to) prove it and it is exclusive. That is why so many early Christians were martyred and why Christianity is still hated in our time. Rome was as post-modern and pluralistic as America today and when a Christian would not bow down and give alms to man-made dieties or worship Ceasar, they were considered foolish athiests and slaughtered. But it is as our Master told us it would be. And one day, EVERY knee will bow and EVERY toungue will confess that Jesus Christ is LORD.

As for my chosen belief system, I didn't choose Him, He chose me.


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## WTM45 (Sep 9, 2009)

All religious belief systems are to be questioned.  Thoroughly.


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## CRT (Sep 9, 2009)

I don't disagree. 

Peace.


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## Lowjack (Sep 9, 2009)

Gloom and doom will be for those without Christ.


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## CRT (Sep 9, 2009)

Right on, Lowjack.


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## StriperAddict (Sep 9, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Your simple disregard for the deities at the center of others' beliefs only reflects the exclusivity of your chosen belief system.


 
There is a reason for the exclusivity.  The Christian faith has a Savior, but no other religion does.

While I might commend other religious belief systems when it comes to thier teachings on good behavior, good deeds, charity, fidelity, etc., etc.,  not one of them has a clear answer about what is done when the subject of those 'systems' FAILS at those precepts.  The main answer usually is a call to 'try harder', etc.

But a Savior such as Jesus is unique in that His call to us is an offer of forgiveness of sins and offences, as well as infilling by His Spirit to assist the one called... to claim Him as Lord and follow Him in holiness.

This brings up this past Sunday sermon I heard, and I'll drop a link in another thread.  It answers this conflict very well.  
*(Note... I just found that I'm locked out of the video site, I'll shoot the link tomorrow from home.)*


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## earl (Sep 9, 2009)

Rouster said:


> I was a kid in elementary school the first time I heard that and laughed my head off....one of my classmates at that time, Kim Dukes, recorded that on his tape recorder, brought it to school, and turned it on during Mrs. Flowers english class...the whole class just exploded with laughter (something like 4th to 6th graders)....she asked who did it and off course no one admitted it.  About 7 of us that were "suspects" got paddled by Mr Jarrell, but it was alright, it was funny and from what I remembered he was snickering as he paddled us...that was a funny show, my grandad would start hollowing at "sunshine" whenever she was on, which didn't thrill my grandmother one bit...time sure does fly....





Now that you brought it up,I believe those were the only girls my dad didn't complain about being ''dressed for the devil''.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 9, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> Gordon2,
> 
> How do you define salvation?
> 
> Peace.


 Two ways: By knowing and doing the will of my Father. [And this Earl knows and does.]

( You must be aware that my ancestory is gentile, my definition has its cultural slang. My church of choise is RC, and this again colors my definition. Also, you must realise that in my case I trust more in my church since its beginning up to now  (or its membership since the days of the apostles) for truth and definitions than I do how many today depend on Scripture alone and more than not on their own. ) Also my definition is seasoned by my character and my personality and how I was given by grace and by my church--a mansion despite all my frailties and  my errors, as I might reveal to you in my definitions and witness.)


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## Ronnie T (Sep 9, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> WTM45,
> 
> You assume that belief warrants reality. Therefore, if one doesn't believe in God, then one cannot hate God. Problem is, belief doesn't warrant reality. I can believe with all my heart that a gun is not loaded, but one fateful squeeze of the trigger may prove otherwise. It doesn't matter what we believe, what matters is what is true. And just because someone can suppress the truth they know about God, for His attributes from the creation are clearly seen, doesn't negate the reality that He exists. Therefore, it also doesn't negate the fact that those who, in their unrighteousness suppress the truth about God and worship the creature rather than the Creator, do so because of their hatred toward Him.
> 
> ...




I'm with you.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 9, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Your faith is to be commended by your fellow believers.  But it in no way makes a concrete proof of the existance of a deity or of eternity.
> 
> Your simple disregard for the deities at the center of others' beliefs only reflects the exclusivity of your chosen belief system.




Absolutely true in regard to my belief system.
And I'm comfortable with it.

There is but one true God.
All others are man-made.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 9, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> All religious belief systems are to be questioned.  Thoroughly.



Absolutely.
I've questioned my beliefs for over 40 years.
All my questions have been answered.


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## earl (Sep 9, 2009)

Gordon , I'm not sure how to reply.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 9, 2009)

earl said:


> Gordon , I'm not sure how to reply.



That is very honest of you and that is what I have come to respect about you.

Peace bros.


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## The Original Rooster (Sep 9, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> One can hardly be both humble and superior, can one?



Diogenes,
I'm sure that a person with your obvious intelligence can think back in history and identify several people who were both superior and humble at the same time.


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## earl (Sep 9, 2009)

Well I will say thank you for the kind words. And apologize for the heat you will get for some off them.


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## The Original Rooster (Sep 9, 2009)

earl, 
I don't tend to think of the doom and gloom much. I try to remember a verse from Judges about when Gideon was chosen by God to lead Israel. An angel of God approached and said, "Hail mighty warrior, the Lord is with thee!" I try to face every day with that thought.


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## Lowjack (Sep 9, 2009)

RoosterTodd said:


> Diogenes,
> I'm sure that a person with your obvious intelligence can think back in history and identify several people who were both superior and humble at the same time.



Like Mua ? LOL


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## The Original Rooster (Sep 9, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Like Mua ? LOL



Lowjack, how did you know? You're exactly who I had in mind!


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## christianhunter (Sep 9, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> CH:  “Maybe one day,by The Grace of GOD,you will understand.I do not know what it will take.I do not know if it will happen,as long as you rely on the "wisdom of self".GOD Knows!”
> 
> Sir, maybe one day, by the Grace of learning, you will understand.  I do not know if it will happen, as long as you rely on the wisdom of superstition and ignorance.
> 
> But do us all a favor – make a coherent thought and a rational bit of input.  The constant reliance on rationalizations and accusations and the Divine nature of your own infallible insight drawn solely from your Heavenly Host is wearing, at best, and quite silly at worst.  I’m not, you might notice, affected a whit by threats of brimstone and eternal torments – so do you have anything actually useful to add to the discussion other than your gloomy laments over the state of my soul, and your observation that only the Unknown is true?



Well then my dear sir.Why don't you go hop on an atheist forum somewhere.You know hang out with your own kind.I'm really sick to my stomach,with your ignorant unfounded ramblings.


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## WTM45 (Sep 9, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> I'm really sick to my stomach,with your ignorant unfounded ramblings.



Not a very accurate representation of his posts at all.
Not even close.


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## Spotlite (Sep 9, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Your simple disregard for the deities at the center of others' beliefs


There is only but one, no Christian should ever entertain the thought of recognizing another "may" exist 


Ronnie T said:


> There is but one true God.
> All others are man-made.


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## WPTC (Sep 9, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> That song meant it was bath time for us young 'uns on a Saturday nite!
> Gave me the urge to go start the tub!



I agree 100%


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## Ronnie T (Sep 9, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Not a very accurate representation of his posts at all.
> Not even close.



I think Christianhunter was right on target in his response to diogenes.


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## Diogenes (Sep 9, 2009)

5pointCal:  Thank you for the deep and insightful analysis of my life and the state of my mind.  Thank goodness you know me so well as to be able to make such profound bubble-gum wrapper sorts of observations . . . 

CH responds with characteristically intelligent insights, “Well then my dear sir.Why don't you go hope on an atheist forum somewhere.You know hang out with your own kind.I'm really sick to my stomach,with your ignorant unfounded ramblings.”   Sir, really, the personal attacks as a substitute for actual reasoned thought are growing quite tiresome.

Ignorance, for the record, is a lack of knowledge.  So let’s try a thought experiment – Can one demonstrate tangibly, physically, and provably that any God whatsoever exists?  No.  One must simply believe.  Is belief knowledge?  No.  Belief is faith.  Is faith proof?  No.  Faith is by definition trust that is not based on proof.  Faith, then, being based by definition on a lack of sure knowledge would equal what?   Ignorance.    Q.E.D.

So what exactly is the point you make?  That my lack of demonstrated ignorance (belief) is inferior to your demonstrated ignorance (belief)?  Um?  Gentlemen, if believing that all of the profound and eternal truths of the universe are contained in a small green watering can in Geneva, or something equally absurd, is what floats your boat, then have at it.  But be very careful about hurling automatic insults at folks who believe in a small blue watering can in Istanbul, or a giant tree sloth in Indochina.  And understand, please, that your beliefs are far from absolute truths and that from afar they look no different than any other ‘belief’, encompassing everything from aliens and ghosts to gnomes and tree spirits.  

The fact that you, personally, believe something does not make it true.  Accepting that you believe something that I personally find absurd is as far as I will go.  Believe away.  But the closed-minded, mean spirited ridicule of opposing thoughts is but one short step away from the theocracy that many of you advocate for your own viewpoint, but are willing to send your children to die to prevent Islam from establishing.  So add hypocrisy to your ignorance, and ask yourselves some harder questions, eh?


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## farmasis (Sep 9, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> Sir, maybe one day, by the Grace of learning, you will understand. I do not know if it will happen, as long as you rely on the wisdom of superstition and ignorance.





Diogenes said:


> So add hypocrisy to your ignorance, and ask yourselves some harder questions, eh?






Diogenes said:


> ]See, also: narcissism, egotism, narrow, selective, clannish, arrogant, cliquish, disallowing, ostracizing, repudiating, ignoring, forbidding, and ignorant. (Just a few, but I have a whole mess of them, where words are concerned . . . )


http://forum.gon.com/showpost.php?p=3735875&postcount=120


Why can some members constanly refer to believers as ignorant without violating....???



			
				AL33 said:
			
		

> If you cannot restrain yourselves from resorting to insulting or inflaming comments perhaps it would be best if you did not participate here at all. Should you continue to participate and not refrain from antagonistic comments you will be dealt with in a severe way. Your membership on this site was granted as a privilege and subject to termination without an explanation. If removing members that cannot debate civilly is what it is going to take to get this house in order then so be it.



http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=320649


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## WTM45 (Sep 9, 2009)

Being ignorant of a subject is a trait that can be observed, and  pointing that trait out is just part of reasonable discussion and debate.

Wherever there is a lack of knowledge or understanding it can be pointed out.  It is up to both parties to make efforts to not offend or be offended.

Namecalling is a altogether different subject.


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## WTM45 (Sep 9, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I think Christianhunter was right on target in his response to diogenes.



Then simply show how you can prove his responses are "ignorant unfounded ramblings."


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## farmasis (Sep 9, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Being ignorant of a subject is a trait that can be observed, and pointing that trait out is just part of reasonable discussion and debate.
> 
> Wherever there is a lack of knowledge or understanding it can be pointed out. It is up to both parties to make efforts to not offend or be offended.
> 
> Namecalling is a altogether different subject.


 

No sir, I am referring to believers being called ignorant for their beliefs in a supernatural being.

We are not talking about not being knowledgable about something.

Is it OK for me to then refer to atheist as ignortant since they are ignorant to issue requiring faith?


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## WTM45 (Sep 9, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Is it OK for me to then refer to atheist as ignortant since they are ignorant to issue requiring faith?



You would not be the first here to do that.  Many have and still are here posting away on a daily basis.

Ignorant, as an adjective.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 9, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Then simply show how you can prove his responses are "ignorant unfounded ramblings."



His "ignorant unfounded ramblings" prove it from themselves.

If you're asking me to prove it to him or someone else who agrees with him, I can't.

How bout you prove to me that what he says IS accurate!


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## WTM45 (Sep 9, 2009)

Ronnie, what I am advocating is for folks to give a reasonable argument for or against, not just make three word comments and then have others simply "agree" or "Amen" the debate without contribution.

I can say this.  Diogenes presents his points in a manner that provokes thought and discussion.


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## WTM45 (Sep 9, 2009)

The rules of the forum are a simple actuality.  PM me if there is any problem with clarity.


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## farmasis (Sep 9, 2009)

I see nothing from the majority of his post that are anywhere close to thought provoking.

Can I get a concensus from the rest of the moderators that these types of posts are tolerated?


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## WTM45 (Sep 9, 2009)

farmasis said:


> I see nothing from the majority of his post that are anywhere close to thought provoking.
> 
> Can I get a concensus from the rest of the moderators that these types of posts are tolerated?



I can suggest the use of the "Ignore" feature the forum provides.  Simple.

See, we all have to agree that discussion, debate and study will have many different opinions, interpretations and views.

But I'm quite confident in what this team of Moderators and Administrators believe regarding the rules of the forum and their interpretation.

Although forum rule enforcement by a Moderator or an Administrator does not require a group concensus, we very often use that method in making a judgement.  
I will request they look in on this post and share their opinions with you.


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## BeenHuntn (Sep 10, 2009)

earl said:


> Do you ever think of things other than doom,gloom and what miserable wretches you are ?
> 
> Hope this helps ...
> 
> ...



doom and gloom is awesome!  its awesome because God mixed it into His sovereign plan and awesome Word of God...

If it is Gods will for us to be "doom and gloom", than it comes from God and is appointed by God...

you can listen to joel o and never hear the word of God or listen to a man of God that teaches doom and gloom...

but the real "doom and gloom" is reserved for the unbelievers...  believers are not appointed onto wrath...


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## Diogenes (Sep 10, 2009)

Farmasis asks, “Why can some members constanly refer to believers as ignorant without violating....???”

Same reason that believers can constantly hurl personal insults without even thinly disguising them as arguments.  But wait!  Using the word, ‘ignorant’ according to the definition of the word, meaning ‘lacking in knowledge,’ can hardly be taken as an insult, can it?  Believers say time and again that they do not know, but simply believe.  So where does the use of a single word which describes that self-defined condition offend?

Sorry to point that problem out, folks, but I don’t make up any of the words, and didn’t write the dictionary.  Words mean what they mean, and when you describe yourselves as not knowing, then accuse others of ignorance . . . well . . . C’mon.  I expect that I know as much or more of the various religions and theologies bantered about than most of those espousing them, and so my rejection of those thoughts is based on thorough knowledge and careful thought – not on my ‘ignorance’ of someone’s ‘sure knowledge’.  Especially when that knowledge is not knowledge at all, but rather belief.

If the point is that disagreement offends you, and you wish to be shielded from it, then I’m afraid that disappointment is your destiny.  Not only does the majority of the world disagree, but even the various factions within your own faith find it impossible to agree – to the point of hatching the problems in Northern Ireland, among many others, where Christians kill Christians over theological arcana.  Seems to me that silencing dissent by any means necessary is a central theme, and one that has echoes . . . 

And accuracy is easy -- empirical methods offer proofs that are demonstrable and duplicatable.  How about someone prove to me that beliefs are accurate?


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## ddd-shooter (Sep 10, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> Ignorance, for the record, is a lack of knowledge.  So let’s try a thought experiment – Can one demonstrate tangibly, physically, and provably that any God whatsoever exists?  No.  One must simply believe.  Is belief knowledge?  No.  Belief is faith.  Is faith proof?  No.  Faith is by definition trust that is not based on proof.  Faith, then, being based by definition on a lack of sure knowledge would equal what?   Ignorance.    Q.E.D.



I have a problem with your definition of faith. Simple belief is not faith-at least not actual Biblical faith. 
However, I do agree that one need not have scientific proof to enact faith-thats a 'spiritual proof.' 

I believe the reason for Diogenes' bad reputation is the often pompous attitude that stems from a confident trust in one's own intellectual abilities. No offense intended. 
We could all do well to proof-read our messages to make sure we use good manners towards one another.


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## CRT (Sep 10, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> 5pointCal:  Thank you for the deep and insightful analysis of my life and the state of my mind.  Thank goodness you know me so well as to be able to make such profound bubble-gum wrapper sorts of observations . . .




I'm just telling you what God has said about you in His Word. You're welcome.


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## Spotlite (Sep 10, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Being ignorant of a subject is a trait that can be observed, and  pointing that trait out is just part of reasonable discussion and debate.
> 
> Wherever there is a lack of knowledge or understanding it can be pointed out.  It is up to both parties to make efforts to not offend or be offended.
> 
> Namecalling is a altogether different subject.



Being called ignorant is unsulting


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## jmharris23 (Sep 10, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> I have a problem with your definition of faith. Simple belief is not faith-at least not actual Biblical faith.
> However, I do agree that one need not have scientific proof to enact faith-thats a 'spiritual proof.'
> 
> I believe the reason for Diogenes' bad reputation is the often pompous attitude that stems from a confident trust in one's own intellectual abilities. No offense intended.
> We could all do well to proof-read our messages to make sure we use good manners towards one another.




Yep. 

The arrogance of man will be brought low and the pride of men humbled; the Lord alone will be exalted in that day Isa 2:17

This goes for both sides.


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## Spotlite (Sep 10, 2009)

farmasis said:


> No sir, I am referring to believers being called ignorant for their beliefs in a supernatural being.
> 
> We are not talking about not being knowledgable about something.
> 
> Is it OK for me to then refer to atheist as ignortant since they are ignorant to issue requiring faith?



Thats the difference in the use of this "ignorance" phrase. We are called ignorant because we beleive in what we beleive in. Not because we dont understand what we beleive.


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## mtnwoman (Sep 10, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Absolutely.
> I've questioned my beliefs for over 40 years.
> All my questions have been answered.



Me, too...maybe a little longer..LOL.
I was overcome, I didn't 'exactly' come willingly, for many years I resisted, then one day a light bulb came on, or a I walked into the light, or whatever you wanna call it....by the wooing of the Holy Spirit.  That's His job and I (thank God) paid attention for once.  I was overtaken, tackled, redeemed, bought back, snatched back, carried back...hallelujah to the Good Shepherd, who will leave the 90 and 9 and come to get His lost sheep...(me). I didn't even know how lost I was, but He always knew where I was, and when the time came....poof, back to the fold in the twinkling of an eye.


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## mtnwoman (Sep 10, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> You would not be the first here to do that.  Many have and still are here posting away on a daily basis.



I'd be interested in seeing a couple of those posts calling atheists ignorant, if you don't mind. Would you point me in that direction?


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## christianhunter (Sep 10, 2009)

jmharris23 said:


> Yep.
> 
> The arrogance of man will be brought low and the pride of men humbled; the Lord alone will be exalted in that day Isa 2:17
> 
> This goes for both sides.



I agree with you Brother,but lets be honest.When an atheist comes on here,it is not to enlighten.They are tolerated trolls,as I said in another thread.They stay just inside the boundaries of the rules,as they intimidate,and belittle.What would be their purpose on a spiritual forum,as they are atheist?As a quoted 67% of the world has the same thoughts as they do.Why would they feel the need to ridicule,and belittle those of us who know,YES KNOW,there is a GOD!
Because their father,who they do not believe in either, sends them here.They literally serve no purpose in a discussion,on spiritual matters.They come on here for one reason only,and out of fairness,they are tolerated.


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## jmharris23 (Sep 10, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> I agree with you Brother,but lets be honest.When an atheist comes on here,it is not to enlighten.They are tolerated trolls,as I said in another thread.They stay just inside the boundaries of the rules,as they intimidate,and belittle.What would be their purpose on a spiritual forum,as they are atheist?As a quoted 67% of the world has the same thoughts as they do.Why would they feel the need to ridicule,and belittle those of us who know,YES KNOW,there is a GOD!
> Because their father,who they do not believe in either, sends them here.They literally serve no purpose in a discussion,on spiritual matters.They come on here for one reason only,and out of fairness,they are tolerated.



While I agree with you,  those who do not believe are in this world, in this forum, and even in the church. 

As far as being in this forum is concerned, as long as they remain within the rules of this forum they retain that right. 
I don't have to like it, but I must learn to deal with it in love. 

This is a debate forum. Debate is not for everyone. Many in here who call themselves Christian could stand to operate out of love a little more.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 10, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Ronnie, what I am advocating is for folks to give a reasonable argument for or against, not just make three word comments and then have others simply "agree" or "Amen" the debate without contribution.
> 
> I can say this.  Diogenes presents his points in a manner that provokes thought and discussion.



I do believe you are serious.


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## WTM45 (Sep 10, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I do believe you are serious.



As serious as a myocardial infarction.
For one to believe or dis-believe in anything they have to put in some serious thought and investigation, else it is just lip service.
Discussion and debate will always exist.


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## post450 (Sep 10, 2009)

Discussion and debate are great. 

Sarcastic banter, mockery, belittlement, not so much.

There are a few here who need to learn a little common Southern courtesy. It sure goes a long ways.


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## WTM45 (Sep 10, 2009)

post450 said:


> There are a few here who need to learn a little common Southern courtesy. It sure goes a long ways.



I'd say more than a "few."  

It is tough for some, as the exclusivity of their belief system lends itself to disagreement and outright rejection of other's belief systems.
This is a discussion board, not a doctrine meeting of a specific religion or denomination.  There will be disagreement and questioning of interpretations, history, tenents and beliefs.

If someone can not deal with the thoughts of another member, they should place them on their "Ignore" list.


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## jmharris23 (Sep 10, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> For one to believe or dis-believe in anything they have to put in some serious thought and investigation, else it is just lip service.



I will respectfully disagree with my fellow mod on this one. 

Belief in God is not always preceded by serious thought and investigation. 

More often than not in Scripture belief came when the person or persons involved were impacted by God in some way, whether that was through some type of miracle or conviction of their need for God.

For example: A man who was healed from a lifetime of blindness by Christ did not say " let me go home and ponder this, to see if it was a medical anomaly or God actually working in my life" 

His words were: " I was blind but now I see" 

Simple faith is chosen by many. This is often confused by others to think that means we have simple minds.


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## WTM45 (Sep 10, 2009)

Mark, I do not impose any time limitation or minimum requirement on "serious thought and investigation!"

The blind man, who was given sight did it in a very short timeframe!  Others might take a lifetime!


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## PWalls (Sep 10, 2009)

To get back on track, I don't think a Christian should operate under a policy of gloom and doom. A Christian is washed, saved and redeemed by Christ Jesus and has assurance of their final and eternal resting place. That is cause for extreme joy and happiness. A joy that should shine through and attract others that don't have that joy.


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## tomkiller (Sep 10, 2009)

PWalls said:


> To get back on track, I don't think a Christian should operate under a policy of gloom and doom. A Christian is washed, saved and redeemed by Christ Jesus and has assurance of their final and eternal resting place. That is cause for extreme joy and happiness. A joy that should shine through and attract others that don't have that joy.



I think a true Christian should preach and live the whole counsel of God, as the Apostles did. They should preach Christ and Him crucifed, forgiveness of sins in blood of Christ, warning of judgment to come, and the glory that awaits those redeemed of Christ. 

Let's use a hunting analogy. Many of us in Nov. will be squirting ourselves with doe juice so we smell like one hot mama to some buck...and hopefully he follows us right to our stand. lol 

A Christian gives off scent as well. To other Christians we are the scent of eternal life to life, a sweet smell to our brethren. 

To the sinner, unbeliever, wicked, we are the stench of death leading to death. Are you surprised when they are repulsed by it? So, no, the lives of true Christians do not "attract" the lost...our lives actually replulse them because our words and lives testify to the world that its deeds are evil. 

The only One who can attract the stubbon, rebel sinner to Christ is the Holy Spirit.


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## christianhunter (Sep 10, 2009)

tomkiller said:


> I think a true Christian should preach and live the whole counsel of God, as the Apostles did. They should preach Christ and Him crucifed, forgiveness of sins in blood of Christ, warning of judgment to come, and the glory that awaits those redeemed of Christ.
> 
> Let's use a hunting analogy. Many of us in Nov. will be squirting ourselves with doe juice so we smell like one hot mama to some buck...and hopefully he follows us right to our stand. lol
> 
> ...



Amen,well put,and a good analogy.That is three comments with no ascertion of proof.It has been said here time and again,the burden of proof lies on The Christian.It does not,it is by faith.We have shown proof individually at times,of miracles wrought in our lives.They are discounted or avoided,but true none the less.THE HOLY SPIRIT has the final say,and only HE knows who will be converted.


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## WTM45 (Sep 10, 2009)

tomkiller said:


> The only One who can attract the stubbon, rebel sinner to Christ is the Holy Spirit.



But a stubborn and inconsiderate believer can sure contribute to an unbeliever's avoidance of the front door of a church.  They can even work that magic on other believers as well.


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## earl (Sep 10, 2009)

Continuing your analogy, I would have to say scat rather than death . 



''To the sinner, unbeliever, wicked, we are the stench of death leading to death. Are you surprised when they are repulsed by it? So, no, the lives of true Christians do not "attract" the lost...our lives actually replulse them because our words and lives testify to the world that its deeds are evil.''


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## christianhunter (Sep 10, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> But a stubborn and inconsiderate believer can sure contribute to an unbeliever's avoidance of the front door of a church.  They can even work that magic on other believers as well.



That is very true WTM,and I agree.We are human(believers)fully capable of equal sarcasm,anger,arrogance,and any other trait bestowed on us,through speech or word.Only if we could have the wit of THE LORD,when the religious leaders of the day tried to trick HIM.Say with the woman caught in the act of adultery.Where was the man?If she was caught,he was also.Yet they brought her,before THE LORD.HE said,"Let he among you,who is without sin,cast the first stone."They departed from the oldest to the youngest.Why the oldest to the youngest?
The oldest had commited more sin.We are not sinless,we are not perfect.Everyone has a fuse that can be lit,some have a shorter fuse than others.When it comes down to going to Church though,if you are going for the people,you are going for the wrong reason anyway.There are plenty of people who go to Church at Christmas,Easter,Mothers Day,and Fathers Day.


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## PWalls (Sep 10, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> But a stubborn and inconsiderate believer can sure contribute to an unbeliever's avoidance of the front door of a church.  They can even work that magic on other believers as well.



That is the point I was trying to make as well. Christianity is not just about the gloom and doom. It is more than that. Sure, preach gloom and doom (some people only respond to that), but we also need to preach and DISPLAY love as well.

Just to throw it out there, I liken this to the signs of the cross in a Protestant Church and a Catholic Church. In the RCC Church, Christ is still on the cross. I grew up believing that is because we are to focus on Him hanging there as a sign of our sins and what He did for us. Kind of a morbid look. Whereas in a Protestant Church, there is an empty cross to signify what He accomplished for us. Cross is empty because it truly was finished and we have the victory. Two different viewpoints of the same thing.


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## earl (Sep 10, 2009)

I wish I knew how to post a video of ''Don't worry,be happy''or the calypso version of ''Somewhere over the rainbow''

Ya'll need a lesson in happy.


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## farmasis (Sep 10, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> Farmasis asks, “Why can some members constanly refer to believers as ignorant without violating....???”
> 
> Same reason that believers can constantly hurl personal insults without even thinly disguising them as arguments. But wait! Using the word, ‘ignorant’ according to the definition of the word, meaning ‘lacking in knowledge,’ can hardly be taken as an insult, can it? Believers say time and again that they do not know, but simply believe. So where does the use of a single word which describes that self-defined condition offend?
> 
> ...


 
Once again. The same definition makes you ignorant because you are not knowledgable of issue of faith.

Scientist also "do not know" the answers to more questions than they know. Are they ignorant?

(Moderators and Administrators will make the determinations as to what is "namecalling" or against forum rules.)


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## tomkiller (Sep 10, 2009)

earl said:


> I wish I knew how to post a video of ''Don't worry,be happy''or the calypso version of ''Somewhere over the rainbow''
> 
> Ya'll need a lesson in happy.



One quick thought..

Why would I be so concerned with being "happy" in this world? 

When I hear things like you say earl, I hear in my mind these words of Jesus...



> And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
> 
> Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.
> 
> ...



Blessedness to them who weep, hunger, poor, persecuted. 

Woe! to them who laugh now, are rich now, are spoken of well now...


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## ambush80 (Sep 10, 2009)

tomkiller said:


> One quick thought..
> 
> Why would I be so concerned with being "happy" in this world?
> 
> ...



Opiate of the poor.


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## tomkiller (Sep 10, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> Opiate of the poor.



What do you mean?


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## earl (Sep 10, 2009)

tomkiller said:


> One quick thought..
> 
> Why would I be so concerned with being "happy" in this world?
> 
> ...





Google depression,manic depression,etc. It is actually quite unhealthy mentally , and since faith and belief are both 100 % mental  it cannot be good to surround yourself with and be consumed with doom and gloom. But then again it is your choice.


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## Israel (Sep 10, 2009)

tomkiller said:


> What do you mean?



He's quoting a derivative of "religion is the opiate of the masses"


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## ddd-shooter (Sep 10, 2009)

Suffering just for suffering's sake is not Biblical. We are to rejoice when in trouble-just as in our day to day life.

1 Peter 3:
14But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; 

   15But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:


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## Ronnie T (Sep 10, 2009)

As I said in post #5, I don't think for one moment that most Christians live in doom and gloom.

Why should we?  God is our Father, Jesus is Lord.

Bad economy? Who cares?  God is our Father, Jesus is Lord.
Terminal illness?  Who cares?  God is our Father, Jesus is Lord.
Lost our Job?  Who cares?  God is our Father, Jesus is Lord.

It will all work itself out.  It always has and it always will.
God answers prayer and Jesus will return for us.
There is no doom and gloom.

But, there is discontent from time to time as we think about how things could be in Christ's church.
There is occasional sadness as we look at the church and realize that we are not what we could be.  What we have the power(thru Jesus) to do.

But no doom and gloom....... Except from my mother-in-law.


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## Diogenes (Sep 11, 2009)

Mtnwoman asks: “I'd be interested in seeing a couple of those posts calling atheists ignorant, if you don't mind. Would you point me in that direction?”

For a simple start, please see post #48 above, in which CH states, “I'm really sick to my stomach,with your ignorant unfounded ramblings.”   

Not so difficult to find, really . . . 

And refer to post #73, just below, “When an atheist comes on here,it is not to enlighten.They are tolerated trolls,as I said in another thread.”  It is all around you, you see . . .    

Farmasis, with chip firmly on shoulder, observes, “Once again. The same definition makes you ignorant because you are not knowledgable of issue of faith.”  Observed, or rather accused, but by no means true.  Perhaps it was the very aspect of ‘doom and gloom’ that caused me to open my mind, but I was born and raised a Christian, studied diligently, was elected by my peers to serve as the ‘High-School Youth’ representative to my Church counsel, and studied under a PhD theologian.   I continued my studies of the religion forced upon me, and extended those studies to the many other religions available, a pursuit I actively engage all these many, many years later (not to say that I am old, but I remember when the Dead Sea was only sick . . . ).  

So. In a phrase, no, sir, I am hardly ignorant of the issues of faith.  

“Scientist also "do not know" the answers to more questions than they know. Are they ignorant?”   Yes.  The difference is that they admit their ignorance readily.  If all of the answers were known then they could pack up shop, pick up a handy Book that already contains all the answers that need to be known, and could have retired well before they gave you the Internet.  Some folks are working, and others (while reaping the benefits of that work) are arguing that everything is already known.  Go figure.

PWalls makes a sensible point: “Christianity is not just about the gloom and doom. It is more than that.”   Pay attention to that.  I may not agree with the basis, but truth is still truth – Christian ministries in this world, and especially the Catholic church, do more actual good in terms of helping everyone from Aids sufferers to the abject poor to catastrophe victims to unwed mothers and back again than any government could ever hope to do, and they do it through the voluntary efforts of their congregations rather than by taxation forced at gunpoint.  Nobody, and myself especially, can disagree with a desire to do good work, and the Christians in this world do more of that than anyone.  That is unbiased and simple truth.

I take nothing away from that work by my observations, and while I reject the zealous who would ‘convert’ everyone to only their own point of view – regardless of their particular belief – I am a realist, and clearly see and appreciate good works, even when performed for the wrong reasons.  In short, as they say in Creative Writing classes – Show, Do not Tell.


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## farmasis (Sep 11, 2009)

Diogenes said:Farmasis, with chip firmly on shoulder, observes, “Once again. The same definition makes you ignorant because you are not knowledgable of issue of faith.” Observed, or rather accused, but by no means true. Perhaps it was the very aspect of ‘doom and gloom’ that caused me to open my mind, but I was born and raised a Christian, studied diligently, was elected by my peers to serve as the ‘High-School Youth’ representative to my Church counsel, and studied under a PhD theologian. I continued my studies of the religion forced upon me, and extended those studies to the many other religions available, a pursuit I actively engage all these many, many years later (not to say that I am old, but I remember when the Dead Sea was only sick . . . ). 

So. In a phrase, no, sir, I am hardly ignorant of the issues of faith. 

“Scientist also "do not know" the answers to more questions than they know. Are they ignorant?” Yes. The difference is that they admit their ignorance readily. If all of the answers were known then they could pack up shop, pick up a handy Book that already contains all the answers that need to be known, and could have retired well before they gave you the Internet. Some folks are working, and others (while reaping the benefits of that work) are arguing that everything is already known. Go figure.

Sir, no I do not have a chip on my shoulder, but do tire of ignorant athiest referring to belivers as ignorant. yes, you are ignorant of issue of faith because you cannot have knowledge of those issue because you do not have faith. Like I said in another post, that you obviously missed, there is a world of difference in knowing the Bible as a piece of literature and knowing it as a book of faith. You may be well versed in the literary aspects of the document, you may have been the class president of your glee club, but ignorant of faith issues.

I guess everyone who does not know the answer to everything is ignorant by your standards. That would include us all. Could we not be more mature and have a decent conversation that does not include labels?

Now, to the gloom and doom. What does a believer have to be gloom and doom about? We are on the winning team.


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## ddd-shooter (Sep 11, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> So. In a phrase, no, sir, I am hardly ignorant of the issues of faith.
> 
> “Scientist also "do not know" the answers to more questions than they know. Are they ignorant?”   Yes.  The difference is that they admit their ignorance readily.  If all of the answers were known then they could pack up shop, pick up a handy Book that already contains all the answers that need to be known, and could have retired well before they gave you the Internet.  Some folks are working, and others (while reaping the benefits of that work) are arguing that everything is already known.  Go figure.



The fact that you did not 'keep the faith' so to speak shows me you know little about actual faith. Please don't misconstrue this as an attack but the entire premise of faith is an unwavering trust and reliance upon God. 

I have never met a sensible Christian who thinks we should pack up shop and quit pursuing knowledge. You know, there was a time when Christians were leading the way in knowledge. 
We don't need scientists for the internet, Al Gore invented it.


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## earl (Sep 11, 2009)

The problem I see with your take on faith is that it is limited.Unbelievers have faith that a well maintained car will not leave them on the side of the road. Or a well loved wife will not leave with the preacher. S ee what I mean ? Of course we use a liitle more knowledge than just because it's in the bible I believe it.
So you see actual faith can be what ever you make of it. To tell Dio that he knows little about actual faith, appears to be the first stone cast.
IMHO


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## Ronnie T (Sep 11, 2009)

Here's a biblical definition of Christian Faith:

Heb 11:1  "Now faith is being *sure* of what we hope for and *certain* of what we do not see."

This chapter goes on to identify us Christian's as people who believe the universe was created from things that did not exist.

Now, that's faith.


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## gtparts (Sep 12, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> Farmasis asks, “Why can some members constanly refer to believers as ignorant without violating....???”
> 
> Same reason that believers can constantly hurl personal insults without even thinly disguising them as arguments.  But wait!  Using the word, ‘ignorant’ according to the definition of the word, meaning ‘lacking in knowledge,’ can hardly be taken as an insult, can it?  Believers say time and again that they do not know, but simply believe.  So where does the use of a single word which describes that self-defined condition offend?
> 
> ...




Couldn't find where "accuracy" was relevant to the farmasis quotation you cited, but your words bring up a most curious sense that you may be missing something. 

About seven weeks back, I fell off a ladder and cracked a couple of ribs. While I have never seen a scientifically controlled experiment concerning the nature and effect of gravity, I did not need to see one. My understanding of gravity is completely experiential. What I have concluded from experience is that falling off a ladder( and other mishaps, as well) is a real bummer. 

We operate from day to day without giving gravity any real consideration (until we experience instantaneous deceleration by a concrete floor). Gravity is always there and we are constantly under its influence, but we tend to ignore it because we have come to a comfortable level of acceptance of how it effects us(as though it has no effect whatsoever). 

Gravity is not too dissimilar from God in some ways. (Surprise! The creation has some characteristics of the Creator.) We tend to ignore God because He is not constantly "in our face". He doesn't hammer away at us so that He is unavoidably obvious, but reveals Himself in many subtle ways that we, for the most part, shrug off as a natural occurrence or a fluke happening. 

The point is, some become Christians because of the numerous subtle experiences they have with God are sufficient to utterly convince them that He exists and of who He is. Others do not come to that realization until they "fall off a ladder". And still others just never seem to get it, either by subtlety or "cracked ribs".

My question to you is this: Are you determinedly ignoring God's subtle call or are you cursing Him for some "cracked ribs"? 

God is far more concerned about your character and conforming to the image of His Son than you being comfortable.... or pain-free. 

Even the Christians who come by way of "falling off the ladder" praise Him for the encounter.

Peace.


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## Israel (Sep 12, 2009)

gtparts said:


> Couldn't find where "accuracy" was relevant to the farmasis quotation you cited, but your words bring up a most curious sense that you may be missing something.
> 
> About seven weeks back, I fell off a ladder and cracked a couple of ribs. While I have never seen a scientifically controlled experiment concerning the nature and effect of gravity, I did not need to see one. My understanding of gravity is completely experiential. What I have concluded from experience is that falling off a ladder( and other mishaps, as well) is a real bummer.
> 
> ...



First brother, I hope you're getting some relief after that fall...and I am glad you didn't land on your head. Or pierce anything. You're right, we can see blessings in anything...cause God is in everything.
Reminds me of the fellow recently who busted his spleen as he fell into his pool while "playing with his dogs"...thankfully, under the hands of a skilled physician the bleeding was stopped. The point being, life, like gravity has some laws that are immutable. One can make many plans, take many precautions, be wise as a sage, and he will still meet his maker whether he wants to or not. 
We are those who have been made glad of that, having been chosen to make that acquaintance before our eyes are closed in the death of this carcass.
Very few of us recognize playing with a 15 pound dog as a high risk situation.
Some of us don't yet realize scorning the one who daily, meekly, holds his hand out to us can be far more calamitous.
It's then we may wish for a high enough ladder to fall from...or a millstone large enough to be hung round our necks.


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## earl (Sep 12, 2009)

So , once again we are back to the happy side of Christianity . It appears not to be just an opiate for the poor ,but for all. Ya'll have a black day now, ya hear.
''It's then we may wish for a high enough ladder to fall from...or a millstone large enough to be hung round our necks. ''


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## Israel (Sep 12, 2009)

earl said:


> So , once again we are back to the happy side of Christianity . It appears not to be just an opiate for the poor ,but for all. Ya'll have a black day now, ya hear.
> ''It's then we may wish for a high enough ladder to fall from...or a millstone large enough to be hung round our necks. ''



Earl, it's all in the perspective.
Believe God is good enough to give his own son for you.
Or not.
He'll be whatever you need him to be.
Actually you are the one who believes the nature of reality is cruel (these few years...then whooosh...gone).
I've found the author of life because he was out looking for me...and I sure can't apologize for any of his words.
You think you're free? Enlightened? Then choices should be precisely what you desire to exercise that freedom.
Throne or millstone.


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## earl (Sep 12, 2009)

No more cruel than a lion killing and eating a gazelle . That is just life. 

''Actually you are the one who believes the nature of reality is cruel (these few years...then whooosh...gone).''

That is all any one is 100% positive of . All else is belief, faith , and speculation.


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## gtparts (Sep 12, 2009)

earl said:


> No more cruel than a lion killing and eating a gazelle . That is just life.
> 
> ''Actually you are the one who believes the nature of reality is cruel (these few years...then whooosh...gone).''
> 
> That is all any one is 100% positive of . All else is belief, faith , and speculation.



How do you presume to speak for everyone? Positive? I am 100% positive of eternal life through Jesus. I am more certain of that reality than I am of sitting in front of this monitor and keyboard.

All you can truthfully say is that your reality is not necessarily that of anyone else.


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## Israel (Sep 12, 2009)

earl said:


> No more cruel than a lion killing and eating a gazelle . That is just life.
> 
> ''Actually you are the one who believes the nature of reality is cruel (these few years...then whooosh...gone).''
> 
> That is all any one is 100% positive of . All else is belief, faith , and speculation.



Having faith is what pleases God. I am not sure "being positive" in the worldly sense means anything...for even the most "positive" a man can be about anything...is still open to, as you say, speculation.

It's remarkably easy, almost like shooting fish in a barrel, really, to come on here and act as though believers in Christ are either foolish or hypocrites.
Foolish for having a hope the unbeliever does not have, because he can neither prove nor experimentally repeat it; or a hypocrite for not measuring up in some sense to men's perceptions of the author of their faith.
I confess easily to being guilty of both. 
I am a fool and a hypocrite.
But, that being said, and having faith in the power of God, I will say that our words are not simply being lost in the ether, but that there is a judge who weighs and measures each one according to the integrity of the speaker.
Now, that I can make no claim for my own integrity, I trust I have left no doubt. And if I am speaking simply of myself, and for myself, I likewise trust the same judge to measure to me according to the folly of that presumption.
But, having engaged a believer on the basis of the superiority of man's intellect as opposed to faith, I will say this.
You may experience your own shame in the revelation by God of precisely how untrue you are to your own words.
For God is neither a man that he should lie, nor far off that he will not judge rightly in the affairs of men.
That man, (for if you are him), who boasts of reason alone as his guide, who extols his only trust in the rational and experiential as limited to this physical realm of existence can and will be painfully made to face his own hypocrisy of which heretofore he has been ignorant.
God can mangle all the intangibles, all the spiritual morsels men consume casually and unknowingly if need be, show by repossessing all the spiritual shades he has allowed to color a man's life to give it meaning to him...until that man is left like a miserable beast without either an iota of hope or a scintilla of reason. 
Perhaps you think Nebuchadnezzar's story a myth or silly fable?
Do you think you are your own creation?
If so, God is well able to show you the best you can manage of yourself.


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## earl (Sep 12, 2009)

gtparts said:


> How do you presume to speak for everyone? Positive? I am 100% positive of eternal life through Jesus. I am more certain of that reality than I am of sitting in front of this monitor and keyboard.
> 
> All you can truthfully say is that your reality is not necessarily that of anyone else.



!00% positive means you can prove it . Unless you die and can prove you continue to live ,it is only your belief that there is an after life.


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## earl (Sep 12, 2009)

Israel ,I wasn't shooting fish. I commented on your post about what I believe . Your entire post 108 sounds like a street corner sermon, screamed at a passerby for not being a Christian. Kind of gloomy ,you know.


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## gtparts (Sep 12, 2009)

earl said:


> !00% positive means you can prove it . Unless you die and can prove you continue to live ,it is only your belief that there is an after life.



I  fail to see where you have been made arbiter and final authority of what "100% positive" means. It is a statement of the degree of my reliance and confidence. I am under no compulsion to prove anything to anyone, including you. I stand by my statement as posted. I make no claim for anyone else. Either my word is trustworthy in this matter or you have given cause to question my veracity publicly. 

I repeat, "I am 100% positive of eternal life through Jesus."

(Deleted the un-necessary...  Woody's staff.)


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## WTM45 (Sep 12, 2009)

Neither of you can provide proof positive to change each other's stance or belief.  That is an individually interpreted belief.  Each has a right to their stance and interpretation, as well as their own belief.

Let's all relax a little.  It is only a discussion and debate.


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## WTM45 (Sep 12, 2009)

earl said:


> !00% positive means you can prove it . Unless you die and can prove you continue to live ,it is only your belief that there is an after life.



That's a belief he is entitled to if he so wishes.  He only has to provide proof to himself.  You are entitled to your belief as well.


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## earl (Sep 13, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> That's a belief he is entitled to if he so wishes.  He only has to provide proof to himself.  You are entitled to your belief as well.



I would agree up to the point that he tries to convince me personally . At that point , the proof has to be satisfactory to me . 
 And ,yes we are both free to believe what ever silliness we want.


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## farmasis (Sep 13, 2009)

If you see a building on fire and rush in to sound warnings to people inside, is that doom and gloom?

No, only if you choose to stay.


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## mtnwoman (Sep 13, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> But a stubborn and inconsiderate believer can sure contribute to an unbeliever's avoidance of the front door of a church.  They can even work that magic on other believers as well.



True but that is the work of the deceiver. If you are a true believer you know that. If you are an unbeliever then the deceiver has done his job well by keeping you from the word by tricking you to avoid the front door of a church.
The fowler snatches the seed before it can take root.
So I agree with you on this one.

But then again a stubborn and inconsiderate unbeliever can also make you run in the opposite direction, whether you're a believer or not.


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## mtnwoman (Sep 13, 2009)

earl said:


> !00% positive means you can prove it . Unless you die and can prove you continue to live ,it is only your belief that there is an after life.



Same goes for those who say there isn't an afterlife. They can't prove it, it is only their belief.


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## mtnwoman (Sep 13, 2009)

earl said:


> Israel ,I wasn't shooting fish. I commented on your post about what I believe . Your entire post 108 sounds like a street corner sermon, screamed at a passerby for not being a Christian. Kind of gloomy ,you know.



I'm sure he'd rather be out hunting, fishing, eating out, camping, watching the tube, going to a ballgame...but since he's convicted to stand on the 'corner' and try to save those he thinks might be doomed, could be considered gloomy.....you know like the bumper sticker.."I'd rather be fishing". He does it because he's called to be fishers of men...and yeah some people can make it awefullly gloomy by mocking, laughing, etc etc. But still he follows his Lord's will, not for his salvation but for others. How can that possibly be considered doom and gloom...it's only doom and gloom in the eye of the beholder. To those who do it, it's glory.


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## mtnwoman (Sep 13, 2009)

farmasis said:


> If you see a building on fire and rush in to sound warnings to people inside, is that doom and gloom?
> 
> No, only if you choose to stay.



Only if they choose to stay in the building would it be doom and gloom and at least not check out to see if the building was really burning because from where they are they can't "see" it. It might pay them to at least check it out.


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## mtnwoman (Sep 13, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Here's a biblical definition of Christian Faith:
> 
> Heb 11:1  "Now faith is being *sure* of what we hope for and *certain* of what we do not see."



Sort of like gravity, or oxygen? I believe I will wake up in the morning and breath oxygen, even though I can't see it or prove it to anyone except for myself who actually breathes it in, so I know it's there.


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## Israel (Sep 13, 2009)

earl said:


> I would agree up to the point that he tries to convince me personally . At that point , the proof has to be satisfactory to me .
> And ,yes we are both free to believe what ever silliness we want.



Earl, the point is, I can no more convince you than I could convince myself.
As to "tries to convince me [you] personally"...well, that's the only way God works...personally.

I knew a man once who thought he knew much about life, simply because he had his own life. He didn't have a clue as to what life was about...again...simply because he had his own life. He even thought he knew himself. 
Then the author of life, in whom he had already thought he had put his trust, told him about who he really was.
This man couldn't/wouldn't believe it, till it came to pass.
He spent a night weeping bitter tears, very much "doom and gloom" when he learned three things. 

First, he wasn't at all what he thought he was, or was (as is the the pandemic) fond of believing about himself.
Second, he discovered there was one who knew him, not even "better" than he knew himself...but really knew him as the proud, boastful, and cowardly man that he was.

The third thing he learned, and remained delighted in until they (the unbelievers) sought to silence him by killing what he had already surrendered to God, was that the author of life loved and forgave him. 

Of course he continues to speak eloquently and encouragingly of the one who told him the truth of all things.

Now, Earl, I know you have not called me a fool...or even foolish...nor do I think you have taken pot shots at me as one swimming in a barrel.
But it is easy, is it not, to fool ourselves about ourselves.
If I am, as is perhaps being suggested, one who is merely ranting on the street using God as a cloak to elevate myself above those "who are not christian"...then I am going to receive the just recompense for one who twists the truth for selfish gain.
(You know, I won't rule out that I may really even think I am a better person than you are...but regardless of that... I "know this" [and here read with GT's defense of 100% certainty] I know experientially, indubitably, incontrovertibly, with scientific experimental repeatability, God will not let me long suffer under that delusion. And I know that better than I know I need my next breath.)

But likewise, if you are the man who says "I live by man's reason alone, and what I see I believe, and is all that I can know", well, I am saying is God is able to bring you to see far more than you ever have, know things that at first you may not think you want to know ( especially about yourself), but likewise, will not leave you there till you know the joy of being God's chosen, greatly beloved, who delighted in you even while you were a coward and hypocrite.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 13, 2009)

Just an observation. Much of what we learn is not from we are told. 

My wife was pointing out to me from a converstion she had this week with co-workers that children learn much from what their parents do! and less from their parents say or a parent's counsel.

  Many times as we note how well children have turned out, it is not the outcome of telling children what was right and what was wrong that was their best treaching, but rather from their mom's and sometime dad doing what was right that was the greatest teacher. 

The wholesome behaviours that children have as young adults is often the relfextion of parental behaviours,... or they do as their parents do! 


Now their is much in the Gospel that teaches on what Jesus DID! as opposed to what was said to do. As gentiles usually can't chew gum and listen at the same time, I think the parts of the Gospel which tell of what Jesus did  are more powerful than all the teachings on salvation, election etc.

I don't care how high up you are. You can bring all the weather proff bibles up your hunting treestand. If a stag, impala, or deer is rubbing close to you, your spirit will be distracted or stirred off the word...

In my view Earl needs to understand that christians don't have to be perfect. In fact they are not. It is also Ok to DO! as the saints DO, and DO as Jesus did, and not call yourself a christian. Why? Because no one is perfect.

In my case, although I forgive and forget others of that which was hard to take for me,I have often and still have problems in forgiving myself of the worries I have caused others or with the knowledge that I have imperfections to the degree that people need to forgive me.

I am my worst hypocrit. Earl's honesty, how he talks to people here, for me, is a God sent. Earl knows that his father's seed is not far from the tree. It is my wish that someday Earl will know what  good works both his fathers did in him. Until then I watch him do good as both do say.


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## Israel (Sep 13, 2009)

gordon 2 said:


> Just an observation. Much of what we learn is not from we are told.
> 
> My wife was pointing out to me from a converstion she had this week with co-workers that children learn much from what their parents do! and less from their parents say or a parent's counsel.
> 
> ...



Of course you are correct when it comes to our own experience.

The difference with the Lord is as mentioned in Acts Chap 1:

Acts 1: 1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

"Jesus began both to do and to teach."


Jesus never spoke of what he didn't do, never did outside of what he taught. In the sense he was not a hypocrite. And because of this his teaching had power, the very power of God to change men's hearts and minds. 
As is testified somewhere in the scripture:
"he taught them as one having authority, not as the scribes and pharisees"
To the extent there is a gulf between what we say and what we do we will know the frustration of those who watch their words fall to the ground.
But God does not, has never wanted us to know the frustration of hypocrisy. He has promised we would know him who is single of heart and action (elsewhere testified in the scripture) so as to be delivered of, and no longer suffer under the fragmented and fractured self that knows no peace.
To him be glory, now and forever.


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## earl (Sep 13, 2009)

Well dang ,now I am gloomy !! I don't get to be an arbitrator or shoot fish in a barrel. I am a cowardly hypocrite. I think I'm gonna eat a worm.


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## earl (Sep 13, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> Same goes for those who say there isn't an afterlife. They can't prove it, it is only their belief.



ASTUTE
    * Main Entry: as·tute
    * Pronunciation: \É™-Ëˆstüt, a-, -Ëˆstyüt\
    * Function: adjective
    * Etymology: Latin astutus, from astus craft
    * Date: 1565

: having or showing shrewdness and perspicacity <an astute observer> <astute remarks>; also : crafty, wily
synonyms see shrewd


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## Israel (Sep 13, 2009)

But likewise, if you are the man who says "I live by man's reason alone, and what I see I believe, and is all that I can know", well, I am saying is God is able to bring you to see far more than you ever have, know things that at first you may not think you want to know ( especially about yourself), but likewise, will not leave you there till you know the joy of being God's chosen, greatly beloved, who delighted in you even while you were a coward and hypocrite.[/QUOTE]

Matthew 12:37


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## Diogenes (Sep 13, 2009)

Gtparts states: “How do you presume to speak for everyone? Positive? I am 100% positive of eternal life through Jesus. I am more certain of that reality than I am of sitting in front of this monitor and keyboard.

All you can truthfully say is that your reality is not necessarily that of anyone else.”

Actually, we can say with some pretty good and sensible reliance that reality – that which is independently true regardless of whether one believes it or not – is completely the same for everyone.  You do not, for example, have a different reality than others if you wish not to believe in oxygen, or if you do wish to believe in leprechauns.  One’s thoughts on what might or might not be true in the actual physical reality of the universe don’t impress the universe one bit, and not a single thing will change just because one or more individual believes something or does not.  

 So, all one can truthfully say is that the ongoing effort to actually explore and understand that reality is interesting and worth the effort, or that one feels that they already understand all of everything on every level, and need no further learning.  If the latter is the case, and a person feels not only that they already know everything knowable, but feels the need to bully and legislate all others to realize that they, solely and individually, are correct, then what exactly is the resistance to showing the rest of us why we ought to believe you?  Why be so defensive about it?  If you have the ‘proof,’ and want so passionately for everyone to agree, then what is the problem with sharing that ‘proof’?  

If one is 100% sure, then there must be irrefutable evidence that any disagreement is not simply a different interpretation, but is actually 100% wrong.  Positing different realities for different people is hardly a satisfying explanation, since that thought is demonstrably wrong.  But folks who seem to be completely sure keep on wavering between the coy, ‘We don’t need to prove anything, because we are already sure,’ and the accusatory, ‘If someone disagrees they have to prove we are wrong,’ and quite frankly both positions are intellectually indefensible.  Once someone puts forth a proposition, as has been done, the onus is on that person to prove and defend the truth of that proposition.  Simply repeating it from some sort of oratory bully pulpit is little more than a ‘Did not!,’ ‘Did Too!’, sort of playground game.  

So Stand and Deliver folks.  Demonstrate your contention beyond a reasonable doubt.


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## Israel (Sep 13, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> Gtparts states: “How do you presume to speak for everyone? Positive? I am 100% positive of eternal life through Jesus. I am more certain of that reality than I am of sitting in front of this monitor and keyboard.
> 
> All you can truthfully say is that your reality is not necessarily that of anyone else.”
> 
> ...




OK, I'm standing.
Are you watching?


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## Israel (Sep 13, 2009)

Still?


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## Israel (Sep 13, 2009)

Won't be long now.


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## Israel (Sep 14, 2009)

Watch for it.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 14, 2009)

Quote: "Actually, we can say with some pretty good and sensible reliance that reality – that which is independently true regardless of whether one believes it or not – is completely the same for everyone. "

You have never visited a Psyc ward, a prison, an Irish pub or been married very long. The beauty with independent truth a la science is that it is not always certain and subject to probability. In my view spiritual reality deals mostly with interpersonal relationships. Its truths are not always certain as well and subject to probablity.

The O2 that is around me might in fact be CO2 all or in part. My understanding of eternity might be a bit off the mark. Nevertheless, 02 is real and so is eternity--probably. Unless you have other ideas?

I suppose that I could say the concepts of Quantum physics are still outthere to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, and what possible good are they to me?


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## Israel (Sep 14, 2009)

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye...


Yer eyes ever twinkle? 
I'm sure that's a sight.


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## Diogenes (Sep 14, 2009)

Israel, now that isn’t fair – making a fella laugh so hard that he snorts up some perfectly good beer is not in the handbook of accepted debating techniques . . .  But nicely done, sir.  My hat is off to that one.

Gordon 2:  Um?  What?   “The beauty with independent truth a la science is that it is not always certain and subject to probability.”   I’m going to guess that you meant ‘as opposed to science,’ rather than ‘a la science,’ in the context of your post, but in either event I have no real idea what you have in mind.  Independent truth is exactly that – true, and independent of any interpretations.  Truth is always certain, by definition, and cannot be revised in marriages, pubs, or hospitals.  When any individual wishes to believe something other than what is demonstrably real, we tend, as thinking folks, to marginalize them.  Oxygen is not a probability or an uncertainty, nor is the sunrise and sunset, the movement of the planets, magmatic differentiation, the refractive index of dielectrics, or the resistance of MOS-FET silicon semiconductor devices operated at liquid helium temperatures in strong magnetic fields (giving you the basis of determining the basic unit of resistance that operates your computer: the ohm).  

Not knowing, wishing to know, or being unable to understand the truth is one thing, but stating aloud that it is not always certain by way of defense of that viewpoint is astounding.  Certainly science is the process of endlessly exploring, questioning, and refining knowledge, but just as certainly that process that we call the empirical method cannot by any means be compared to faith, which is little more than zestful intuition untainted by any actual knowledge.  Not knowing everything, in other words, is hardly comparable to assuming everything.  

If you have problems understanding, say, the Gurney-Mott process of photoconductance, where a mobile electron is released, and a photograph results, well, that can be explained factually if you wish to devote a bit of thought to the process.  Or you could throw up your hands, say it is really too complicated for you, and contend that God made photographs possible, according to some randomly chosen Bible verse.  One explanation is independent truth, you see, and the other is your own . . .


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## Lowjack (Sep 15, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Here's a biblical definition of Christian Faith:
> 
> Heb 11:1  "Now faith is being *sure* of what we hope for and *certain* of what we do not see."
> 
> ...


That is really a bad transliteration in truth in the Greek the verse reads, is but faith the certainty of the things you await for,being convinced of the things to yet come. (Translation by me from The Greek Textus)
Being sure is no certainty or convinced that things you are waiting for will be so, IMO
Some translation also use the words hope for that is not in the Greek either. There is not hope or being sure in this verse , it is all a certainty that faith is real.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 15, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> Israel, now that isn’t fair – making a fella laugh so hard that he snorts up some perfectly good beer is not in the handbook of accepted debating techniques . . .  But nicely done, sir.  My hat is off to that one.
> 
> Gordon 2:  Um?  What?   “The beauty with independent truth a la science is that it is not always certain and subject to probability.”   I’m going to guess that you meant ‘as opposed to science,’ rather than ‘a la science,’ in the context of your post, but in either event I have no real idea what you have in mind.  Independent truth is exactly that – true, and independent of any interpretations.  Truth is always certain, by definition, and cannot be revised in marriages, pubs, or hospitals.  When any individual wishes to believe something other than what is demonstrably real, we tend, as thinking folks, to marginalize them.  Oxygen is not a probability or an uncertainty, nor is the sunrise and sunset, the movement of the planets, magmatic differentiation, the refractive index of dielectrics, or the resistance of MOS-FET silicon semiconductor devices operated at liquid helium temperatures in strong magnetic fields (giving you the basis of determining the basic unit of resistance that operates your computer: the ohm).
> 
> ...



Quote: "The beauty with independent truth a la science is that it is not always certain and subject to probability.” I’m going to guess that you meant ‘as opposed to science,’ rather than ‘a la science,’ in the context of your post, but in either event I have no real idea what you have in mind. "

No what I meant is that science at best is not always certain and subject to probablility. I did not make that up. That is what scientist say about their work, methods and findings.

Since you make no relationship with my tangent on the scientific method and reality from my reply to your query, it will take a better philosopher than I to connect the dots for you.

Peace bros.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 15, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> That is really a bad transliteration in truth in the Greek the verse reads, is but faith the certainty of the things you await for,being convinced of the things to yet come. (Translation by me from The Greek Textus)
> Being sure is no certainty or convinced that things you are waiting for will be so, IMO
> Some translation also use the words hope for that is not in the Greek either. There is not hope or being sure in this verse , it is all a certainty that faith is real.



Means the same to me.
My being convinced of something makes it a certainty to me.  
Whether it's true or not.  It's faith.


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## Diogenes (Sep 16, 2009)

"My being convinced of something makes it a certainty to me. 
Whether it's true or not. "

Wow.


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## The Original Rooster (Sep 16, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> "My being convinced of something makes it a certainty to me.
> Whether it's true or not. "
> 
> Wow.



What kind of evidence are we talking about here? I mean, what's it going to take? A paperweight off God's desk?

Really, what will it take? What evidence could be produced that any of you would believe? I tend to believe that even if God spoke to you, you'd think you were hearing voices and see a doctor. If he appeared before you in a burning bush, you all would get a fire extinguisher. What would it take?


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## Ronnie T (Sep 16, 2009)

RoosterTodd said:


> What kind of evidence are we talking about here? I mean, what it's going to take? A paperweight off God's desk?
> 
> Really, what will it take? What evidence could be produced that any of you would believe? I tend to believe that even if God spoke to you, you'd think you were hearing voices and see a doctor. If he appeared before you in a burning bush, you all would get a fire extinguisher. What would it take?


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## Diogenes (Sep 18, 2009)

Sorry for the delay.  I’m still stuck on the, “"My being convinced of something makes it a certainty to me.  Whether it's true or not. "

Things like that make my head hurt.

And the best to defend that, then, is this: “I tend to believe that even if God spoke to you, you'd think you were hearing voices and see a doctor. If he appeared before you in a burning bush, you all would get a fire extinguisher. What would it take?”    

Yikes.  

“Even if.”    “If he appeared before you.”   

Yeah.  “If.”   Quite a leap.    Got any of those ‘Even if’s’ on offer?  True or not?  Since being convinced regardless of truth is a certainty unto itself, as stated, then may I politely ask what is it about an ‘if’ that is convincing?  If a bullfrog had wings?  If pigs fly? If your wife is a bowling ball?  If the sky turns out to be a government plot? If aliens are secretly controlling all of our emotions? If it turns out that what we are trying to brush off our shoulder is actually the floor?    

Where do you draw the line with your ‘If’?  At what point do you throw down your hat, and decide that the ‘if’ you currently support is all the truth you need, and all other ‘ifs’ are nonsense?  “Whether it is true or not.”

What???

Did someone really say that?

C’mon now.  Yer funnin’ with me here.  

Either I missed something, or that statement Ronnie made needs a whole new thread.  

(Nice ridicule with the animated emoticons, fellas, but that is hardly more than Junior High slap dash nonsense -- not a substitute for thought . . . )


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## Ronnie T (Sep 18, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> Sorry for the delay.  I’m still stuck on the, “"My being convinced of something makes it a certainty to me.  Whether it's true or not. "
> 
> Certainly you do the same in your life.
> You are convinced, certain that your wife isn't cheating on you.  Until the day you find out differently.
> ...


Sorry, I didn't mean it as redicule.  I just thought his statement about the fire extinguisher was really funny.  Some people didn't believe in God even when blood flowed down their rivers.

Now don't be shocked.  I'll probably block your post's again in a day or two.


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## The Original Rooster (Sep 18, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> Sorry for the delay.  I’m still stuck on the, “"My being convinced of something makes it a certainty to me.  Whether it's true or not. "
> 
> Things like that make my head hurt.
> 
> ...



Respectfully Diogenes, you haven't answered the question (not that you're required to, of course). What evidence would it take?


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