# Givin over to a reprobate mind?



## Artfuldodger

"And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient" (Romans 1:28) 

"Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith." (2Timothy 3:8) 

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16

When Christians become corrupt or quit retaining the knowledge of God, he can give them a reprobate mind.
Isn't this in a since taking away their free will or is it more like: if you abandon God, he''ll abandon you.
God gave them over to this depraved, disapproved and virtually worthless state of mind. In this depraved mindset people would  exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. Is this depravity temporary? I would assume this depraved person could regain their faith later.


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## Lowjack

If you believe the SAS doctrine you can be saved no matter what.
But I think Romans is speaking of people who have always rejected G-d in the last generation , we might be witnessing this happening right now.


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## Artfuldodger

Lowjack said:


> If you believe the SAS doctrine you can be saved no matter what.
> But I think Romans is speaking of people who have always rejected G-d in the last generation , we might be witnessing this happening right now.



They had God but didn't retain him. Regardless of their faith God gave them a reprobate mind. Were they responsible for their terrible actions while depraved?

If they didn't know God as Christians, why did he reprobate them?


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## Artfuldodger

Romans 1:19-20
They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them.20)For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

(They could not have  been toatally depraved before this event because verse 20 tells us they had no excuse)


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient" (Romans 1:28)
> 
> "Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith." (2Timothy 3:8)
> 
> "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16
> 
> When Christians become corrupt or quit retaining the knowledge of God, he can give them a reprobate mind.
> Isn't this in a since taking away their free will or is it more like: if you abandon God, he''ll abandon you.
> God gave them over to this depraved, disapproved and virtually worthless state of mind. In this depraved mindset people would  exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. Is this depravity temporary? I would assume this depraved person could regain their faith later.


These verses are referring to non-Christians.


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 1:19-20
> They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them.20)For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
> 
> (They could not have  been toatally depraved before this event because verse 20 tells us they had no excuse)


Just because man has a physical awareness does not mean that he has any ability to act upon it.


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> These verses are referring to non-Christians.



All non Christians?


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Just because man has a physical awareness does not mean that he has any ability to act upon it.



I believe they did not have an excuse  to turn from God. He showed them his glory & power in creation. He told them they had no excuse. When they still refused to honor God, he gave them a reprobate mind. Then and only then did they have an excuse for their weirdness, evil, and unnatural acts because they were givin reprobated minds.
My question is will they ever be granted a chance at salvation?


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> I believe they did not have an excuse  to turn from God. He showed them his glory & power in creation. He told them they had no excuse. When they still refused to honor God, he gave them a reprobate mind. Then and only then did they have an excuse for their weirdness, evil, and unnatural acts because they were givin reprobated minds.


They are without excuse. The Atheist can not say, "if you had only shown yourself".



Artfuldodger said:


> My question is will they ever be granted a chance at salvation?


Not the reprobate.


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> These verses are referring to non-Christians.



Why do some non-Christians become reprobate and some   non-Christians stay that way without becoming reprobate?

From what I understand, becoming reprobate is a long drawn out process where you start out kinda bad but become so evil that God finally gives up on you and turns you over to your own lustful ways. At that point your mind is depraved and it's too late for salvation. I don't distinguish between Christians & non-Christians in becoming reprobate.

Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

Galatians 5:19-21 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> Why do some non-Christians become reprobate and some   non-Christians stay that way without becoming reprobate?


If they stay that way, they are reprobate. If a non-Christian remains in unbelief, it is condemnation.



Artfuldodger said:


> From what I understand, becoming reprobate is a long drawn out process where you start out kinda bad but become so evil that God finally gives up on you and turns you over to your own lustful ways. At that point your mind is depraved and it's too late for salvation. I don't distinguish between Christians & non-Christians in becoming reprobate.


As you know, I believe God creates and chooses some men for salvation and some men for destruction. 



Artfuldodger said:


> Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
> 
> Galatians 5:19-21 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.



I would say that these verses indicate a non-Christian or a non-Christian pretending to be Christian.


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## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient" (Romans 1:28)
> 
> "Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith." (2Timothy 3:8)
> 
> "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16
> 
> When Christians become corrupt or quit retaining the knowledge of God, he can give them a reprobate mind.
> Isn't this in a since taking away their free will or is it more like: if you abandon God, he''ll abandon you.
> God gave them over to this depraved, disapproved and virtually worthless state of mind. In this depraved mindset people would  exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. Is this depravity temporary? I would assume this depraved person could regain their faith later.



I don't see any indication that any of these referenced people ever really "accepted" the lordship of Christ.


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## hobbs27

Jesus stands at the door and knocks...Not when we ask, but when He deems it time.He will not stand out in the cold alone forever.

I've had it explained this way and tend to agree with it.

I heard a man testify once before he died that He had rejected salvation many times and God had let him know he was done with him...I can't say what happened to the mans soul but he certainly felt that he was going to open his eyes in he11.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Jesus stands at the door and knocks...Not when we ask, but when He deems it time.He will not stand out in the cold alone forever.
> 
> I've had it explained this way and tend to agree with it.
> 
> I heard a man testify once before he died that He had rejected salvation many times and God had let him know he was done with him...I can't say what happened to the mans soul but he certainly felt that he was going to open his eyes in he11.



Even with "insider information" he still refused. Maybe his heart was already "rebrobated." I wonder at what point God loses his patience? When is it to late to sing "Just As I Am?"


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## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> I don't see any indication that any of these referenced people ever really "accepted" the lordship of Christ.



I must agree that the scripture doesn't relay that information. They could very well be non-believers, believers but not yet convinced, Christians who know Jesus, sinners who know Jesus, Posers who pretend to know Jesus but aren't showing to be Christians by their fruit.
Does it really matter who these people are if they are givin a reprobate mind? What did they do to distinguish themselves to receive such an eternal - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -ation of a reprobate mind?
Not all reprobates will have every trait, but they will manifest enough to send up a red flag. Reprobates are usually: 
        Conniving, Selfish, Disdainful, Impatient, Angry, Underhanded, Sly, Shrewd, Deceitful, Cruel, Untrustworthy, Spiteful, Disloyal, Treacherous, Confrontational, Greedy, Willful, Self-Indulgent, Prideful, Arrogant, Unremorseful, Scornful, Sneaky, Manipulative, Belligerent, Calculating, Scheming, Devious, Cunning, Callous, Brutal, Cold-blooded, Sadistic and Vicious. 

Those are some terrible traits. I've met Christians with some of those traits. I've got some of those traits. Christians continue to sin. Is it the bunch of them combined? Wouldn't you say only God himself knows when he will reprobate someone? When he finally says: I've given this person a free will to follow me and quit sinning but he is getting progressively worse to the point I've had it. He is so evil he will never repent. I'm going to make him a slave of his own sin and give him a reprobate mind. Then he can wallow in his on disgusting sins. And to top all that off, i'll make him a slave to sin. He'll start doing all types of disgusting sins that are beyond disgusting. He will become so depraved he'll start sleeping with men and terrible sins such as this. His salvation is doomed. He is so evil that I will not show him mercy.


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## Artfuldodger

The person about to be reprobated is way evil. After he is reprobated, he is a slave to sin. He starts doing all kinds of evil stuff. He isn't even in control of his actions. It doesn't even matter as his corruption has doomed his fate. Romans 1 tells of all the strange sins a reprobated sinner will do.

Now I don't think the Scriptures tell us but, what criteria does God use to reprobate someones mind? This is something he is going to do to their mind. This is permanent. This isn't like a punishment of, come back later when you repent. How can we then blame the reprobated mind of prideful arrogance when he no longer has a choice? 
And as Gemcgrew believes(and being very civil in this discussion)
God creates and chooses some men for salvation and some men for destruction, why would God turn his back on a non-believer and not give them a chance?
I believe God gives every non believer  way more leniency than people who have heard and still refuse. People who believe and go astray will be far worse off than people who never believed.


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## Ronnie T

It appears they were people who had been given opportunity to accept, but the seed had fallen to the side and the birds came and took it away.


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## gemcgrew

I would say that all men who die in unbelief are reprobate and all of their actions in their lifetime are thoroughly evil. They may have an outward appearance of doing good things but God knows the inward condition. If the inward condition is that of corruption, all of the outward acts are corrupt as well. The elect can never be reprobate and the reprobate can never be elect. We do not know who they are because we view the outward acts. Only God knows.

Consider David, had we only been privileged to snippets of his life, we would no doubt view him as an unbeliever and perhaps even reprobate. But we are privileged to more of his life and have no doubt of his eternal condition. Believers still sin but Christ saves to the uttermost, that is completely. When we stumble and fall, He is faithful and true.


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## Lowjack

Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 1:19-20
> They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them.20)For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
> 
> (They could not have  been toatally depraved before this event because verse 20 tells us they had no excuse)



You answer yourselve or post 3 , they had G-d because they knew of him through the miracles of creation , doesn't necessarily mean they were Christians , it is very hard once knowing the truth to go back to a sinful life, unless you were called a Xtian and was not.


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## Lowjack

Artfuldodger said:


> Why do some non-Christians become reprobate and some   non-Christians stay that way without becoming reprobate?
> 
> From what I understand, becoming reprobate is a long drawn out process where you start out kinda bad but become so evil that God finally gives up on you and turns you over to your own lustful ways. At that point your mind is depraved and it's too late for salvation. I don't distinguish between Christians & non-Christians in becoming reprobate.
> 
> Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
> 
> Galatians 5:19-21 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.



That is a Judgement call belonging only to G-d , but in my human nature and 50+ years of ministry , I can openly say anyone who is given to a reprobate mind was never a Christian or Jew , he was a pretender as many are who sit in church today. John Called them antichrist when he said "they came from us but they were not of us". And Paul speaking of his own said ," Not all of Israel is of Israel".I wrote a book many years ago called "Satan's secret agents"Where I denounced this type of so called Christian or believer.

 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
Hbs 6


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## Artfuldodger

So it's a person who sits in Church pretending to be a Christian. Did this person slowly become evil over his years in the Church? You've seen the list of traits of a person about to be reprobated. Does that sound like someone sitting in a Church? What is the difference from this person verses an ordinary unbeliever? Is it his posing as a Christian? I thoght most people in a Church at least started out believeing and fell by the wayside through neglect. Hardly an evil to the core type person.
What happen to the belief that all sinners have a chance? Do we only get so many chances before we are reprobated?


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## StriperAddict

Artfuldodger said:


> If they didn't know God as Christians, why did he reprobate them?


 
I didn't look at the other q's before I got here, but here goes my take on your question.
Consider that God actually gave them exactly the desires of their heart. This portion of Romans is a progression of the sinful nature, looking to have it's needs met outside of the will of God (the cross), and so it makes perfect sence that anyone with the Adamic nature - unredemmed, without Christ, would do the (deeds) of their true father, the devil.
That nature unchecked will go the way of the slippery slope, with a conscience seared and constantly tainted by the world, flesh and the devil.  

They, not careful asking for one evil, got the whole shooting match. Romans 1 is a very powerful portion of scripture for those suggesting they don't "need" a cross and a New Man...  the New Creation He provides from the sacrifice of Himself.

No surprises here. Right? All in the word, unless I'm missing something?


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> So it's a person who sits in Church pretending to be a Christian. Did this person slowly become evil over his years in the Church?


A reprobate is always an unbeliever but an unbeliever is not necessarily reprobate. An unbeliever may yet experience Grace in their life. The reprobate will remain in unbelief their entire life.


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## Artfuldodger

But these people knew God. I believe they had been converted. There were other pagans who weren't reprobated by God. These converted people were returning to their evil pagan ways of worshipping false Gods. They no longer "retained God in their knowledge."
They didn't have an excuse. Regular old non-believers have an excuse because they are "depraved." These people weren't, they knew God. They weren't like converted Jews and the stronger Gentile Christians. They succumbed to their old pagan ways.
They had turned from God, having known Him, and returned to their idolatrous worship. That's when God gave them a reprobate mind. They had their chance at salvation and blew it. All non-believers have a chance to repent and ask for salvation. 
They turned from God after professing. 
In Mat.12 & Mark 3. we learn that the only thing that earns being cut off by God is,  rejecting the Holy Spirit.
It is better to never know God than to know him and turn your back on him. If you know God and do this, you have know excuse.


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## Artfuldodger

To whom was the Letter to the Romans written?

 What does Rom 1:7 indicate about the intended readers of the Letter to the Romans?
It indicates that the intended readers of the Letter to the Romans were "all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints." In other words, they were the members of the church in Rome.
    What needs to be determined in order to understand Paul's purpose in writing is whether, at the time that he writes his letter, the church in Rome had a majority of Jews or gentiles. 
But I have written very boldly to you on some points so as to remind you of them again, because of the grace that was given me from God, to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the gentiles, ministering as a priest the gospel of God, in order that my offering of the gentiles may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit. 
Reprobate means "counterfeit" as in Counterfeit Christians?" I don't think he was talking to Jews in this chapter. There weren't many in Rome at the time.

I agree with Matthew Henry that these verses could apply to both Christians & non-believers.
quote:
The nature of man, whether pagan or Christian, is still the same; and the charges of the apostle apply more or less to the state and character of men at all times, till they are brought to full submission to the faith of Christ, and renewed by Divine power. There never yet was a man, who had not reason to lament his strong corruptions, and his secret dislike to the will of God. Therefore this chapter is a call to self-examination, the end of which should be, a deep conviction of sin, and of the necessity of deliverance from a state of condemnation.


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## Artfuldodger

Funny but the Pagans thought we were immoral reprobates. This isn't related to the discussion but interesting none the less.
Justin Martyr (ca. 100-165 A.D.)
In the early church era, many pagans believed Christians were immoral reprobates. So Justin attempted to reveal what Christianity is all about. He refuted common errors and rumours that Christians were atheists and that they ate flesh and drank blood. He was concerned with winning civil toleration for Christians. He argued that civil authorities should take pains to see whether in fact the Christian faith is destructive of civic loyalty. He wrote that even if the Christians should be judged foolish and misguided, at least they have done nothing worthy of the death penalty. He appealed to the emperor not to allow anything to prompt him in evaluating Christians other than their righteous life, piety, and love for truth. He pointed out that he and his fellow Christians " stand apart from demons and follow God;...we who once took pleasure in fornication, now embrace self-control; we, who...valued the acquisition of wealth and possessions above everything else, now put what we have into a common fund, and share with everyone in need; we, who hated and killed one another, and would not share our lives with certain people because of their ethnic differences from us, now live intimately with them."

We take for granted being able to witness without being persecuted. I wonder how we would do in an era or area where one could be killed or jailed for spreading the "Word?"  If I was preaching in that era, I would sell my cloak and by a sword. Paul was writing to the church in Rome. He wanted to come to Rome to help them spread the Gospel to these Pagans. Could you imagine being a Roman Christian living in predominately Pagan country or city? Having grown up worshiping false idols? Having no excuse?


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## StriperAddict

Artfuldodger said:


> But these people knew God. I believe they had been converted. There were other pagans who weren't reprobated by God. These converted people were returning to their evil pagan ways of worshipping false Gods. They no loner "retained God in their knowledge."
> They didn't have an excuse. Regular old non-believers have an excuse because they are "depraved." These people weren't, they knew God. They weren't like converted Jews and the stronger Gentile Christians. They succumbed to their old pagan ways.
> They had turned from God, having known Him, and returned to their idolatrous worship. That's when God gave them a reprobate mind. They had their chance at salvation and blew it. All non-believers have a chance to repent and ask for salvation.
> They turned from God after professing.
> In Mat.12 & Mark 3. we learn that the only thing that earns being cut off by God is, rejecting the Holy Spirit.
> It is better to never know God than to know him and turn your back on him. If you know God and do this, you have know excuse.


 
To know God by knowledge is not the same as knowing by Spirit.


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## Artfuldodger

StriperAddict said:


> To know God by knowledge is not the same as knowing by Spirit.



I've looked at it that way but the thing that angered God was their idol worship. These people knew better. There was something different about them. There are people all over the world who worship idols. God hasn't reprobated their minds. They can still repent.
These were posers in the church. Idol worship is a gross injustice yet there are people in the churches who do this.
They would tell you they believe in God. They don't even realized they are doing this idol worship when they hold their job or property as more important than God. 
I realise those examples aren't as blatant as worshipping a false animal God and hopefully God sees it as a difference too.
We didn't grow up worshipping false idols of statues & objects. If we did and because of our sin nature, we might return to that lifestyle.

When we hear the word “idol” we often think of statues and objects reminiscent of those worshipped by pagans in ancient cultures. However, the idols of the 21st century often bear no resemblance to the artifacts used thousands of years ago. Today, we have replaced the “golden calf” with an insatiable drive to reach the top of the corporate ladder or with a myriad of other passionate pursuits. And, sadly, those who aggressively pursue goals and dreams, altogether excluding God, are often admired for their individualism and drive. In the end, however, it doesn’t matter what empty pleasure we chase after or to what or whom we bow down, the result is the same—separation from the one true God.

http://www.gotquestions.org/idol-worship.html


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## Artfuldodger

Lowjack said:


> You answer yourselve or post 3 , they had G-d because they knew of him through the miracles of creation , doesn't necessarily mean they were Christians , it is very hard once knowing the truth to go back to a sinful life, unless you were called a Xtian and was not.



Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. (2 Peter 3:17)

When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. (Ezek. 18:26)

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (Mark 13:13) 

They knew the truth, they might not have practiced it, but they knew it. I believe it is easy to go back to the sinful nature. If it wasn't there wouldn' be so many verses warning us.


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## SemperFiDawg

My view on this matter is pretty simple:  I don't and can't know, and it has no bearing on my calling to share the Gospel.  Only God knows who he will save and has saved.  It's his decision as he alone holds the keys to Heaven.  My and your commission as Christians is only to share the good news.  I take the position that all are lost and go from there.


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