# have you been to seminary/studied theology



## 04ctd (Nov 19, 2013)

in reading some of you on here, I have realized I needed more knowledge: sound scriptural knowledge about what/how/why the Bible says things.

I think there are folks on here who are:
-Bible raised: in church all thier life, know the word
-pulled back from the brink: dearly in love with God for saving them, LOVE the word.
-self taught: know alot, understand alot, good solid men.
-some seminary/schooling: deep thinkers
-seminary/M Div: expound more deeply, relate NT verse to OT verse. 


I have been trying to find a seminary/bible college to enroll in locally (Charleston SC) but they seem to have gone out of style   

what do you guys think, does more education make you more better?

does a preacher with an MDiv do better than a Man of God who is annointed to preach the word of God?


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## formula1 (Nov 19, 2013)

*Re:*

Brother, for the record, I suppose I best represent the "pulled back from the brink: dearly in love with God for saving them, LOVE the word" category you described.  It's a little more than that but the description is pretty good!

More education can certainly help depending on your goal, but I don't think the educated (like a MDiv) are any more likely to be more successful in transfering the gospel to others.  They are generally successful because their education in our society is highly regarded and many will hear them as a result.  We need them, don't get me wrong, but we also need those who just walk and live in God's anointing, who are disciples and are making disciples, serving God wherever they happen to be. It's not the best, the most educated, or the respected that succeed but the servant of all (no matter their education)!  I would say strive for servanthood and if you feel education will make you a better servant, go for it!

There are lots of online Christian education programs that are available out there that I'm sure you could benefit from. God Bless!


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## 04ctd (Nov 19, 2013)

well said.

we had our local church org "brotherhood supper" last nite:
all ~50 SBC churchs in the area get together, and someone talks, and we eat & visit.

Guy talked last nite, was 67 years old. 
no shazam, no WOW, no crazy miracles, just a slow steady walk with God all of his life.  He read the word & followed the word, and 
God blessed him.

just a good simple testimony of a life well lived.


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## rjcruiser (Nov 19, 2013)

What is your goal?

As to your poll question, evangalizing the lost has nothing to do with education.  God will save a person no matter how poorly you think your performance was.  Remember....scripture tells us that if we don't spread the Gospel, the rocks will cry out.

However, if your goal is to teach and to preach, I think Seminary can be a very good thing.  Knowing the original languages...knowing early church history....learning these things can help immensely when expositing a passage of scripture.

I will say though, I've seen knowledge obtained...and a self righteous attitude obtained along with it.  So...education can lead to one's own pride and destruction.

As a little background...I grew up in church, went to a 4 year Christian college and obtained a minor in Bible at that school.  I have many friends and family who have MDivs, ThMs and ThDs as well.  I've got a strong preference towards The Master's Seminary in SoCal....but if picking up and moving to SoCal isn't in your future, I'd look at Luther Rice.  I know several folks that teach/work there and they have an extensive online offering.


In the mean time, I also recommend the gty app for your smartphone.  This is the radio ministry of Dr. John MacArthur and you can stream/download all of his sermons for free to your smartphone.  Also, they have their pastor's conference all online as well and I find these sessions extremely informative and helpful.


At the end of the day, we are called to be faithful.  Run the race with endurance...be faithful...so that when you are called home, you hear God say "Well done good and faithful servant."


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## clayservant (Nov 19, 2013)

2 Timothy 2:15
King James Version (KJV)

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

1 Peter 3


 15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and [a]fear


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## JB0704 (Nov 19, 2013)

04ctd said:


> I have been trying to find a seminary/bible college to enroll in locally (Charleston SC) but they seem to have gone out of style



Couple questions.....have you ever heard of River Church up there?

Also, have you ever looked into Liberty University?

I couldn't answer the poll, as it seems that the options were way too limited.  Some of the smartest people I have ever known had zero education.  However, I am definitely biased towards education just because it can't hurt.

For me, I do not have a seminary degree, but I got my undergrad at a Christian College and it definitely opened some avenues of thought/study while taking the core courses relevant to philosophy and theology.  Can't be a bad thing.


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 19, 2013)

Problem is that some teach what they believe. You need to find one that teaches the entire spectrum, then lets you determine what it is that you believe.


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## hobbs27 (Nov 19, 2013)

Knowledge comes from study, wisdom comes from the fear of God. Which do you desire most?
 A wise old preacher was once told by a lady that she enjoyed his preaching and thought he could go a long way in his ministry if he went to seminary school. His response? " Ma'm I wouldnt trade you any of the pairs of pants I have that Ive worn the knees out of praying for all the education those schools have to offer".
 As 1gr8bldr said too...You will have to learn their way of teaching.  I much rather learn Gods way....


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## hayseed_theology (Nov 19, 2013)

I'm not going to vote in the poll, because I can't say one option is best for everybody.  The Bible and the Holy Spirit are all that are needed for evangelism.  Education doesn't necessarily make you more effective, but it can provide you with more tools.  I have known folks that have led many to Christ but butcher the English language.  Charles Spurgeon and Martyn Lloyd-Jones didn't have a seminary degree, but they were very much used by God and effective evangelists.

That being said, I think theological education can be very beneficial. Seminary gave me a great start.  I went through an M. Div. program.  In fact, I feel strongly enough about pursuing education that I am in the application process to go back and get some more.  For me, education is very important.  Formal seminary training does not guarantee character or effectiveness in ministry, but it can greatly aid in both.


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## BT Charlie (Nov 20, 2013)

My vote similarly would not reflect a valid opinion. I have neither been to seminary nor studied theology.  It shows. I'd dearly love to try seminary.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 20, 2013)

A 2011 poll of Protestant pastors by LifeWay Research revealed that slightly over half reported a belief that the earth is approximately 6000 years old.  Protestant pastors with graduate degrees were much more likely to strongly disagree that the earth is approximately 6000 years old than pastors with a bachelor’s degree or less.

82% of Protestant pastors reported a belief that Adam and Eve were literal people, with evangelical Protestant pastors being more likely to hold this belief.  Protestant pastors with graduate degrees were much more likely to strongly disagree that Adam and Eve were literal people than those pastors with a bachelor’s degree or less.

This demonstrates that formal education does tend to change some of the beliefs held by pastors.

Do you believe that formal education leads pastors away from the truth or toward the truth?


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## formula1 (Nov 20, 2013)

*Re:*

All you need to be effective for the Gospel is to spend time with Jesus! He has given us His Spirit just for this purpose! 

Acts 4:13 
Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated, common men, they were astonished. And they recognized that they had been with Jesus.


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## Dana Young (Nov 20, 2013)

Nothiong wrong with seminary except you had better be Grounded in the word and very familiar with the holy spirit before you start listening to mans way of thinking. 
I have seen many people led astray by some of the seminary proffessors but the holy spirit and the word will never lead you astray.
After you are grounded in the word and not a babe in Christ, and capable of listening to the holy spirit Then seminary can be a good thing.
unfortunatly many are not called by GOD to preach. They are what I call momma called and daddy sent and are looking to seminary for a career as a pastor or a job as a seminary proffessor. Thats the problem with seminary they put more stock in the schooling than the Calling.


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## hayseed_theology (Nov 20, 2013)

There seems to be a general feeling out there that education leads people away from conservative, evangelical theology.  And, I believe HJ's statistics indicate that there is some legitimate ground for that belief.  That has not always been the case, and I pray that it will not be the case in the future.  In American evangelical society, seminaries and bible colleges became bastions of theological liberalism while the conservative believers in the congregations had no idea.  Many unwittingly sent their sons and daughters to their favorite christian college or seminary with little to no idea what was actually being taught in the classrooms.  As the seminaries go, so goes the denomination in the next generation.

Many who went to an SBC seminary in the 50's-80's (even into the 90's) encountered theological liberalism for the first time in that setting.  Consequently, many young impressionable students were convinced by their professors to adopt a more liberal approach to Scripture(meaning the Bible is not necessarily inerrant, creation and flood accounts were simply recapitulated common mesopotamian myths, Adam and Eve were not actual historical figures, miracles actually have natural explanations, the documentary hypothesis theory, etc.).  Thankfully, due to the courageous leadership during the Conservative Resurgence the SBC seminaries have returned to a conservative perspective.  However, many institutions from all different denominations have fallen into liberalism's grasp with little hope of being reclaimed - Mercer University, Emory, Harvard, Princeton, Louisville Presbyterian Seminary, Baylor University, Furman University, Duke, and many others.

That being said, there are many good, conservative bible colleges and seminaries out there that do not lead students into liberalism, but rather equip them to stand against it.  Before you go to a Bible college or seminary, make sure you know what they teach on certain issues.  Seminary should (like it did for me) help you stay grounded in the Word, grow in grace and faith, be conformed to the image of Christ, and listen to the Spirit.  There are some good seminaries that are just as passionate about cultivating godliness and inspiring evangelism as they are about imparting knowledge.

Here I am defending seminary and going back for more, but I will say, in the list of qualifications of an overseer in Timothy, "an M. Div." is absent.  In fact, formal training and oratory skill don't make the list.  The primary qualifications are related to character.  A good seminary or bible college recognizes this and seeks to promote genuine spiritual growth in addition to academics.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 20, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Protestant pastors with graduate degrees were much more likely to strongly disagree that the earth is approximately 6000 years old than pastors with a bachelor’s degree or less.
> 
> Do you believe that formal education leads pastors away from the truth or toward the truth?



What are your thoughts concerning this particular issue?


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 20, 2013)

I always say that no "teachers edition" bible exist. Just the same one for all. In other words,  self taught is just as well and you know where those verses are that founded your belief. Yet, I understand that the thought of someone leading you through study topics simplifies and the input from other classmates could be interesting as well as making new friends


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## hayseed_theology (Nov 20, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> What are your thoughts concerning this particular issue?



I don't think formal education is necessarily good or bad.  It should move students closer to the truth, but the value of it is in large part based on the content of the teaching.  I will use food as an analogy.  Food, in general, should be good for you.  However, the nutritional content is what really determines if it is good or bad for you.  Some formal education leads people away from the truth.  Some formal education leads people toward the truth.  It is all a matter of content.

Often times, when people arrive at liberalism, it is through the avenue of formal education(i.e. a liberal seminary) and not through personal study of the Word of God. Personally, I would classify myself as a young earth creationist.  Rejecting a young earth perspective is often (but not always) a symptom of rejecting inerrancy.  With the number of liberal theological institutions that do and have existed, it is no surprise to me that pastors with some seminary training are more likely to reject the young earth position.


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## hummerpoo (Nov 20, 2013)

Dana Young said:


> Nothiong wrong with seminary except you had better be Grounded in the word and very familiar with the holy spirit before you start listening to mans way of thinking.
> I have seen many people led astray by some of the seminary proffessors but the holy spirit and the word will never lead you astray.
> After you are grounded in the word and not a babe in Christ, and capable of listening to the holy spirit Then seminary can be a good thing.
> unfortunatly many are not called by GOD to preach. They are what I call momma called and daddy sent and are looking to seminary for a career as a pastor or a job as a seminary proffessor. Thats the problem with seminary they put more stock in the schooling than the Calling.



What follows would have been post #5 but I backed off of putting it up.  After reading you post, I thought it might be support for what you said.

I started to make a list of scriptural passages that spoke of those who are “educated”, but the list was too long.

I would not disagree with anything that F1 or rj said, but what I whole heartedly agree with is “discipleship” and “servant hood”; to which I might add “discernment”.

I would not be candid if I did not confess that I have deleted several negative statements concerning religious education because they were not based on personal experience.  Perhaps the most gracious thing I can think of is that one should have his spiritual discernment firmly established before putting himself in the position of having his success or failure judged on the basis of his agreement with the opinion of others.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 21, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> Perhaps the most gracious thing I can think of is that one should have his spiritual discernment firmly established before putting himself in the position of having his success or failure judged on the basis of his agreement with the opinion of others.



The reason I pointed specifically to the issue of the age of the earth (6000 years verses much older) is that in an academic setting it is not solely based upon opinion.

The exact age of the earth may be opinion, but the evidence presented in support of an earth much older than 6000 years is actual scientific data.

I'm not arguing the age of the earth.  I'm just pointing out that "opinion" is not the only thing presented in formal education.


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## hummerpoo (Nov 21, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> The reason I pointed specifically to the issue of the age of the earth (6000 years verses much older) is that in an academic setting it is not solely based upon opinion.
> 
> The exact age of the earth may be opinion, but the evidence presented in support of an earth much older than 6000 years is actual scientific data.
> 
> I'm not arguing the age of the earth.  I'm just pointing out that "opinion" is not the only thing presented in formal education.



And the accuracy, relevancy, applicability, and conclusions drawn from that data are varying degrees of opinion.


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## 04ctd (Nov 21, 2013)

Well...you guys hunted & pecked around ALL my thoughts.

my Dad chewed me out...  he said what 1gr8bldr said "read your Bible..again and again..pray more!"  "God will teach you what you need to know"

Hayseed has my thoughts in line: if you can get FREE education...you ought too.

and Hayseed more or less said: "if their scriptural basis ain't right, they can't teach you right"

And that's where I am: I don't mind going, I can go for free, but i do NOT want to sit thru some crazy stuff that don't line up with what I believe.



I looked at the Liberty University posted above, have to check them out closer.

FWIW, the local "_Baptist College_" (use the term loosely) does NOT even offer theology classes at night.

the closest big name reputable Seminary has ~50% of it's classes on campus (that's in the "distance learning/online" program)  which is ~5 hours away

another seminary has classes in Savannah, but does not take Federal benefits (no GI Bill)


and the last online college I went to, I could have continued right into a mDiv, I called my counselor, and she said "NO...you don't want to get an mDiv here"

God's not the god of confusion....

Keep adding your opinions guys, seems we are mostly thinking the same thing: your relationship with God is more important than your paperwork with man.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 21, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> The reason I pointed specifically to the issue of the age of the earth (6000 years verses much older) is that in an academic setting it is not solely based upon opinion.
> 
> The exact age of the earth may be opinion, but the evidence presented in support of an earth much older than 6000 years is actual scientific data.
> 
> I'm not arguing the age of the earth.  I'm just pointing out that "opinion" is not the only thing presented in formal education.



And I'd have to say that it is my opinion that everything you've said above,,,,,,, is your opinion and might not be the opinion of others.
So it isn't a subject that has to be discussed by Christian educators at all.  At least that's my opinion.


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## hayseed_theology (Nov 21, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> The reason I pointed specifically to the issue of the age of the earth (6000 years verses much older) is that in an academic setting it is not solely based upon opinion.
> 
> The exact age of the earth may be opinion, but the evidence presented in support of an earth much older than 6000 years is actual scientific data.
> 
> I'm not arguing the age of the earth.  I'm just pointing out that "opinion" is not the only thing presented in formal education.



Let's be honest.  There is actual scientific data on both sides of the argument - 



> Based on the measured helium retention, a statistical analysis gives an estimated age for the zircons of 6,000 ± 2,000 years. This age agrees with literal biblical history and is about 250,000 times shorter than the conventional age of 1.5 billion years for zircons. The conclusion is that helium diffusion data strongly supports the young-earth view of history.  -Dr. DeYoung


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## HawgJawl (Nov 21, 2013)

hayseed_theology said:


> Let's be honest.  There is actual scientific data on both sides of the argument -



Absolutely.  And that is the exact point I'm trying to make.  There is scientific data presented in formal education.  Not just opinion.


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## hayseed_theology (Nov 21, 2013)

04ctd said:


> Well...you guys hunted & pecked around ALL my thoughts.
> 
> my Dad chewed me out...  he said what 1gr8bldr said "read your Bible..again and again..pray more!"  "God will teach you what you need to know"
> 
> ...



If you want to do something entirely online, Liberty may be one of the better options.  Any ATS accredited institution is going to require a significant portion of the degree to be completed on campus.  Taking courses through the SEBTS extension in Charleston would be my suggestion, but I realize that requires some work at the main campus.  I understand that might not be an option for you, and I don't know your denominational preferences.

My parents both did an MA through Liberty's seminary.  I think they both found it helpful.  It is perhaps not the most academically rigorous, but it is conservative.  I think Dr. Ergun Caner's departure was a step forward for the institution.


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## Israel (Nov 21, 2013)

What's lacking?
Anything?
Wisdom? Understanding? 
Who has it for is...or better still...who is it for us and to us?
I won't deny an academic may only receive another academic on academic grounds, but God knows how Paul was eventually convinced, and also what he was then further convinced of in its worthlessness.
"Do whatever he tells you" may be a good place to remain.

But then, it might sound like I am trying to teach something.
And you have no need that any man presume to do that.

My testimony is getting whittled down, and I am not stating anything I haven't heard others say, and maybe you've heard it to. I am far less troubled by things I don't understand, as I am when needful, of the things I do understand.


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## JB0704 (Nov 21, 2013)

hayseed_theology said:


> My parents both did an MA through Liberty's seminary.  I think they both found it helpful.  It is perhaps not the most academically rigorous, but it is conservative.  I think Dr. Ergun Caner's departure was a step forward for the institution.



I took one of his classes.  Interesting fella.


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## rjcruiser (Nov 21, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> You need to find one that teaches the entire spectrum, then lets you determine what it is that you believe.



Worst piece of advice imho.  Why would you go to a seminary that taught the exact opposite of what you believe?  



HawgJawl said:


> This demonstrates that formal education does tend to change some of the beliefs held by pastors.
> 
> Do you believe that formal education leads pastors away from the truth or toward the truth?



I think it shows the problem with the piece of information that gr8bldr gave above.  Go to a big name school that teaches everything under the sun and your belief's are more likely to be compromised.



hayseed_theology said:


> There seems to be a general feeling out there that education leads people away from conservative, evangelical theology.  And, I believe HJ's statistics indicate that there is some legitimate ground for that belief.  That has not always been the case, and I pray that it will not be the case in the future.  In American evangelical society, seminaries and bible colleges became bastions of theological liberalism while the conservative believers in the congregations had no idea.  Many unwittingly sent their sons and daughters to their favorite christian college or seminary with little to no idea what was actually being taught in the classrooms.  As the seminaries go, so goes the denomination in the next generation.
> 
> Many who went to an SBC seminary in the 50's-80's (even into the 90's) encountered theological liberalism for the first time in that setting.  Consequently, many young impressionable students were convinced by their professors to adopt a more liberal approach to Scripture(meaning the Bible is not necessarily inerrant, creation and flood accounts were simply recapitulated common mesopotamian myths, Adam and Eve were not actual historical figures, miracles actually have natural explanations, the documentary hypothesis theory, etc.).  Thankfully, due to the courageous leadership during the Conservative Resurgence the SBC seminaries have returned to a conservative perspective.  However, many institutions from all different denominations have fallen into liberalism's grasp with little hope of being reclaimed - Mercer University, Emory, Harvard, Princeton, Louisville Presbyterian Seminary, Baylor University, Furman University, Duke, and many others.
> 
> ...


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## HawgJawl (Nov 21, 2013)

I understand that opinions of professors can be harmful, but how can scientific data be the enemy of a belief that is true?

Factual data (knowledge) can never be a threat to the TRUTH.


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## BT Charlie (Nov 21, 2013)

Israel said:


> What's lacking?
> Anything?
> Wisdom? Understanding?
> Who has it for is...or better still...who is it for us and to us?
> ...



This is wise.  

I have examined my original zeal and motive for desiring seminary knowledge at 12:40 a.m. in the dark of one night.  It boils down to sin: wanting some ammo to debate CenterPinFan better ... and win.  I confess it to all forumites here and now.  Israel, you've already written of the original sin nature of this kind of motive.  And Genesis aptly describes for all time the folly of human knowledge of right and wrong, which separates us from our God, puffing us up in self edification and veiling the glory of God. 

Seems to me if one's irreducible testimony is Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior, then truth is abundantly provided and knowable to a certainty.  

Cool trivia questions and other interrogatories with seemingly impossible solutions delight human knowledge, if not other things in other places.  

They reveal little of God's first love and mercy toward us. 

They do not glorify God or encourage his children. And in the end for some, as HawgJawel's own comments on other threads state, human doctrine and opinion can confuse and crush some's spirit and faith.  

Some of this unfortunately is learned behavior.  Science frequently notes victims repeating upon others the wrongs they've suffered.  For teachers, a steep penalty is promised for those who mislead others.  Injured pupils take note before mirroring the conduct that caused you to stumble.

What is truth? Ha. Get thee behind thee satan.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 21, 2013)

Genesis 1:16-19
And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.


Imagine that I was able to provide scientific evidence that the moon is not a light source.

Would your reaction be:  Get thee behind me college boy with all your fancy heathen learning, the Bible says it, so I believe it!   (knowledge is my enemy)

Or would you be able to accept this as a fact and adjust your interpretation of this scripture to incorporate your knowledge of this fact?   (knowledge is my friend)


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## hayseed_theology (Nov 21, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Absolutely.  And that is the exact point I'm trying to make.  There is scientific data presented in formal education.  Not just opinion.



Gotcha.  I misunderstood the direction you were headed.



JB0704 said:


> I took one of his classes.  Interesting fella.



Yeah, he's got some personality, doesn't he?  



HawgJawl said:


> I understand that opinions of professors can be harmful, but how can scientific data be the enemy of a belief that is true?
> 
> Factual data (knowledge) can never be a threat to the TRUTH.



I am with you - facts are not the enemy of truth; they uphold it.  Concerning the age of the earth question, there is much debate as to what "the facts" actually are.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 21, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Genesis 1:16-19
> And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
> 
> 
> ...



If you did or didn't it wouldn't have any negative connection to the words of God.  It would never cast a shadow on the scripture of what God first said.  And that's one of the problems with higher learning...... quite often, higher learning attempts to take truth beyond what the truth originally revealed.  It attempts to make God say what God did not say.
.


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 21, 2013)

rjcruiser said:


> Worst piece of advice imho.  Why would you go to a seminary that taught the exact opposite of what you believe?


Because knowing both sides gives you a solid foundation. Not a "mom and Pop " or this is what my preacher believes religion, but rather a belief that is based on careful observation. Not a single apollogist exist that does not know both sides. Just saying "it ain't so" is not apologetics. 

Also, "exact opposite" of what you believe is not a correct description, but rather what I was refering to was a place that teaches all the different limbs that have grown from the same tree of Christianity. Point is, that if you go to a seminary with a baptist name, they will teach against catholcism. And vice versa if you go to the Catholic seminary.


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## BT Charlie (Nov 21, 2013)

Peace and certainty fills the former rebel who surrenders his arms at the cross. He may not have answers for other rebels, but his heart knows things only knowable after the rebellion ends. Jesus is Lord and Savior.

Hawg asks:

Would your reaction be: Get thee behind me college boy with all your fancy heathen learning, the Bible says it, so I believe it! (knowledge is my enemy)

No, but since you ask: my truthful reaction is one of deep and uncommon despair over what the questions may reveal about the questioner.

For example -- and, again, you asked -- you seem to mock others' belief in Christ as a form of ignorance, apparently to strike back at a certain stereotype of protestant believers who may have injured you through their doctrine, leaving you faithless.  I ask you to consider it possible your bitter opinions could have similar results upon  others similarly situated as you once were.  You must believe in and fear righteous judgment?

The irony of your comment is that as an attorney I've spent more than a few years in college.  Somehow, despite being exposed to the "fancy heathen learning" -- as you suggest that I would refer to it -- my heart seems to know truths beyond your grasp.  Based on my testimony, that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior, I do and will rebuke satan in the Blood of the Lamb, wherever the enemy tries to manifest himself. But you are not satan, college boy (as you refer to yourself in your analogy to 'Get thee behind thee, Satan.'  Curious, your juxtaposition of your position in the rebuke.) And ours is not a battle between you and I, or flesh and blood, as I think you know.   

I also testified in another of your epic gardens of doubt about a Dr. of geology who likewise repented and accepted Christ as his Lord and Savior, despite a far deeper knowledge and awareness of all science has to say about this little space we occupy.  Again, somehow -- oh, what could it be? -- this fellow embraced Christ despite his heathen knowledge, as you say I would refer to it.  It is obvious even in my unimportant life that advanced education coexists in harmony with this glorious testimony: Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior.

Hawg, you are an incredibly bright guy with a firm command of scripture.  Put down your rebellion so you can understand the important stuff, and drop this trivia.  That is my fervent hope an prayer for you and yours.  The kingdom needs you, and vice versa.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 21, 2013)

Besides you might not have formed all of your beliefs or you may have formed the wrong beliefs just because didn't know any better.
I always say "the more I know, the more I don't know. 
Example, I've been researching different types of life insurance. The more I learn makes me have to learn more. I don't necessarily agree with every insurance salesman's advice but it helps me learn what not to buy by listening and researching.


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## Israel (Nov 22, 2013)

never knowing when I am being presumptuous, rebellious, or ungrateful leaves me in desperate need...for I would walk straight into perdition were it not for the sobering slap of the spirit, the splash of cold water, the very real and precious "hey, I see that!" that comes thundering when I am all about my little life and telling myself I am doing the very best I can.
No, the reproof does not come to encourage me to do better, nor to slavishly self flaggelate over woefully short sightedness. It comes to divert attention and overcome the gravity of self, that black hole from which no light escapes and even warps light emanating from other nearby bodies.
It takes power to overcome entropy.
Something greater than darkness must come into the darkness...disguised almost...to deliver its payload of light.

I was this close >< to loving a well schooled soul for his well schooling. Slap! Right soul. Wrong school and wrong affection.


----------



## BT Charlie (Nov 22, 2013)

Amen.  I dropped my rifle right there at the cross just a second ago it seems, and put my hands up.  But why dog gone it do I always wake up with the thing at port arms all the time?  Scripture does not say I have to continue sinning... But oh how needy I am in Christ.  Thankfully.  Part of me would dearly love to semantically avoid what snatches of self awareness overcome me.  But most of me rests solely in the righteousness of Christ in me. Whew.

Back to string theory, boys.


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 22, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> If you did or didn't it wouldn't have any negative connection to the words of God.  It would never cast a shadow on the scripture of what God first said.  And that's one of the problems with higher learning...... quite often, higher learning attempts to take truth beyond what the truth originally revealed.  It attempts to make God say what God did not say.
> .



So then the second option is a more reasonable approach for you. 



HawgJawl said:


> Or would you be able to accept this as a fact and adjust your interpretation of this scripture to incorporate your knowledge of this fact?   (knowledge is my friend)



This is what I thought.  Knowledge is not your enemy.


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 22, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> Hawg asks:
> 
> Would your reaction be: Get thee behind me college boy with all your fancy heathen learning, the Bible says it, so I believe it! (knowledge is my enemy)
> 
> No, but since you ask: my truthful reaction is one of deep and uncommon despair over what the questions may reveal about the questioner.



The first option for a response was meant to sarcastically illustrate the extreme standpoint of "No, don't get more education. It will turn you away from God".

I think it is clear from the responses that knowledge doesn't have to be the enemy of Christianity.


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 22, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> For example -- and, again, you asked -- you seem to mock others' belief in Christ as a form of ignorance, apparently to strike back at a certain stereotype of protestant believers who may have injured you through their doctrine, leaving you faithless.



I wasn't mocking Christianity.  I was mocking the assertion that education is bad for Christianity.  Facts are no threat to the TRUTH.


----------



## Ronnie T (Nov 22, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> The first option for a response was meant to sarcastically illustrate the extreme standpoint of "No, don't get more education. It will turn you away from God".
> 
> I think it is clear from the responses that knowledge doesn't have to be the enemy of Christianity.



No.  Everyone's point is this:  Just what exactly is knowledge?  Knowledge of error, or mere opinion, might not be considered knowledge at all.


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 22, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> No.  Everyone's point is this:  Just what exactly is knowledge?  Knowledge of error, or mere opinion, might not be considered knowledge at all.



How would a pastor go about isolating themselves from the opinions of others?


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 22, 2013)

Two different pastors are asked a question about the Tower of Babel.

The old country preacher with a 3rd grade education is firm in his position that the tower was just about to reach heaven.

The educated preacher explains the story in a way that incorporates knowledge that a tower could never actually reach heaven.

Which one do you believe would be more effective in convincing lost souls that the Bible is true?


----------



## Ronnie T (Nov 22, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> How would a pastor go about isolating themselves from the opinions of others?



By learning to leave opinions out of conversations and writings that would be harmed by the thoughts, whims, and exaggerations of others.
Opinions are alright for the parking lot.
.


----------



## Ronnie T (Nov 22, 2013)

I would simply stick to the tower story as given in God's word.
.


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 22, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> I would simply stick to the tower story as given in God's word.
> .



What exactly would that be?  What caused God to decide to scatter the people?


----------



## gemcgrew (Nov 22, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Which one do you believe would be more effective in convincing lost souls that the Bible is true?


Neither.


----------



## formula1 (Nov 22, 2013)

*Re:*



Ronnie T said:


> I would simply stick to the tower story as given in God's word.
> .




Me too!  So many miss the point!  Those with the natural mind look to the possibility of such a tower and attempt to discredit or at least shed doubt on the story.

But unity of people apart from God was the real issue and Christ came to restore that unity to those who would receive Him.  He even gave the language of the Spirit at Pentecost through His indwelling, pointing to the goal of Unity of Faith among God's people, wholly submitted Body (His People) to the Head (Christ). To me what happened at Babel and what was poured out in Acts 2 are linked through the Gospel if you think about it. Unity left, then unity through the Spirit returned in perfect union to the Heavenly Father, which was God's intent. And to the extent we kill our old self, Unity returns in Christ's people on this earth! We then become more powerful and effective with the Gospel.

I'm not say it works perfectly, but that's because men and women haven't learned to lay their life down and take up Christ!  God Bless!


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 22, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> I would simply stick to the tower story as given in God's word.
> .





formula1 said:


> Me too!
> 
> But that is NOT what you did.
> 
> ...



You did this.



HawgJawl said:


> The educated preacher explains the story in a way that incorporates knowledge that a tower could never actually reach heaven.


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 22, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Neither.



When asking questions about a product that I am only partially familiar with, I am much more likely to be convinced by a salesman who is knowledgable and gives me information that is consistent with the facts I already know than the salesman who is only able to read to me directly out of the owners manual.  I can read the owners manual myself.  If I'm having trouble understanding a part of the owners manual, the salesman reading it to me isn't going to be helpful.


----------



## formula1 (Nov 22, 2013)

*Re:*



HawgJawl said:


> You did this.



It's true I expounded upon the story and linked it to the Gospel.  But I addressed the spiritual aspect of the story as opposed to addressing the tower itself. I never said the tower could not reach heaven but rather I decided to stick to the point of the matter and link it to the Gospel.

You need to quit looking at what you believe wrong and look at what matters, and that is my point!  God Bless!


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 22, 2013)

formula1 said:


> It's true I expounded upon the story and linked it to the Gospel.  But I addressed the spiritual aspect of the story as opposed to addressing the tower itself. I never said the tower could not reach heaven but rather I decided to stick to the point of the matter and link it to the Gospel.



You provided a reasonable and convincing explanation for the story, as opposed to simply quoting the scripture and saying "It says it in the Bible so it must be true".

Your explanation, even though it avoided the issue of "a tower actually reaching heaven", would be much more believable than an explanation that included the assertion that a tower could in fact reach heaven.

Being educated enough to know that a tower cannot reach heaven is a good thing in this case.


----------



## formula1 (Nov 22, 2013)

*Re:*



HawgJawl said:


> Being educated enough to know that a tower cannot reach heaven is a good thing in this case.



Better to be educated enough to know God wants to speak to you through His Word and seek to find that treasure!  God Bless!


----------



## gemcgrew (Nov 22, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> When asking questions about a product that I am only partially familiar with, I am much more likely to be convinced by a salesman who is knowledgable and gives me information that is consistent with the facts I already know than the salesman who is only able to read to me directly out of the owners manual.  I can read the owners manual myself.  If I'm having trouble understanding a part of the owners manual, the salesman reading it to me isn't going to be helpful.


But your arguments and examples are very telling. They are absent of God. One does not convince an unbeliever that the Bible is true. They are unbelievers. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit". They must be born again.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Nov 22, 2013)

The topic has changed slightly. I was thinking about the entire benifit but I just noticed the poll topic about evangalism. So, I have no idea about this benefit. But as far as theology, I know a very sucessful preacher who has not been to seminary. He is trinitarian yet teaches as though he is "Oneness" and does not even realize it.


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 22, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> But your arguments and examples are very telling. They are absent of God. One does not convince an unbeliever that the Bible is true. They are unbelievers. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit". They must be born again.



I understand your point as it pertains to a lost adult who is mostly unfamiliar with the Bible.  They would begin from a position of disbelief.

Consider a child who is raised in church and is saved at the age of 13.  The child was raised believing the Bible is true.   Well before the age of 13, he or she has already learned that a tower cannot reach heaven.  If no one offers an explanation such as your to this child, they will begin to doubt the truthfulness of scripture.


----------



## gemcgrew (Nov 22, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I understand your point as it pertains to a lost adult who is mostly unfamiliar with the Bible.  They would begin from a position of disbelief.
> 
> Consider a child who is raised in church and is saved at the age of 13.  The child was raised believing the Bible is true.   Well before the age of 13, he or she has already learned that a tower cannot reach heaven.  If no one offers an explanation such as your to this child, they will begin to doubt the truthfulness of scripture.


So what? Where is God in your hypothetical? What purpose does he have for her doubt?


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 22, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> So what? Where is God in your hypothetical? What purpose does he have for her doubt?



So if someone doubts God, it is because God wanted them to?


----------



## gemcgrew (Nov 22, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> So if someone doubts God, it is because God wanted them to?


Do you believe Romans 8:28?


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 22, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Do you believe Romans 8:28?



I have seen no evidence of it being true in my lifetime.  Maybe the definition of "loves God" is more strict than I have encountered.


----------



## gemcgrew (Nov 22, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I have seen no evidence of it being true in my lifetime.


You may yet or you may not.


HawgJawl said:


> Maybe the definition of "loves God" is more strict than I have encountered.


Or perhaps it is a gift, graciously bestowed on all who are born of God. "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins."


----------



## BT Charlie (Nov 22, 2013)

Hawg, have you been to seminary (a sincere question) ? Also, if I may, what is the highest level of education/training you have received?  I am impressed by your command of scripture, as well as your debating skills, etc.  You are an excellent writer as well.  I was thinking of you today...I again wondered if you fear the Lord?


----------



## 04ctd (Nov 23, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Genesis 1:16-19
> And God made two great lights;
> 
> Imagine that I was able to provide scientific evidence that the moon is not a light source.



this is really the root of much discussion on GON, is semantics: if the moon reflects light, is it a source, or...is it the source of reflection, therefore the light that comes from it, has the moon as it's source...???

and on and on.

until the point of the story is lost, because we argue semantics over individual words, we lose the overall vision of what the chapter/story/parable meant.



formula1 said:


> So many miss the point!  .....unity of people apart from God was the real issue and ..... then unity through the Spirit returned



and that causes division, because now HJ says:



HawgJawl said:


> You did this.



HJ seems to say you should teach semantics/literally

most of us think you should teach what the story says:
"be in unity with man, and with God"

that's the really the point of this post/poll/troll, to see if education would help me see past the semantics/literal meaning to have a broader understanding, esp in reference to how F1 linked OT events to NT revelation.

an unlearned man misses a lot of the OT/NT connections.


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 23, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> You may yet or you may not.
> 
> Or perhaps it is a gift, graciously bestowed on all who are born of God. "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins."



I was raised in an old, country, Southern Baptist church, attending Sunday night and Wednesday night services, choir, and all the other church activities.  At the age of 13, I walked down the isle, got down on my knees at the alter, and accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior.  I was baptized and joined the church.  My faith was strong and my belief was unwavering.

I continually studied the Bible and any other reference material I could get my hands on.  I felt strongly that God was calling me to become a preacher.  I prayed about that for about two years, all the while living as Christ-like as I could.  I witnessed and successfully led others to Christ.

The point of the above is this;

I do not accept the assertion that there is an "understanding" that is not available to me because only believers are granted the ability to comprehend what scripture really says or what God really wants.  I was a member of the "club" in good standing and I still have my secret decoder ring.


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 23, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> Hawg, have you been to seminary (a sincere question) ? Also, if I may, what is the highest level of education/training you have received?  I am impressed by your command of scripture, as well as your debating skills, etc.  You are an excellent writer as well.  I was thinking of you today...I again wondered if you fear the Lord?



I have a high school education.  I was very close to entering seminary but my situation changed.  The little bit of Christian and biblical knowledge I have was a result of being raised in church, by reading the Bible and other materials I could get my hands on, and revealed to me by the Holy Spirit if you believe that sort of thing.


----------



## Ronnie T (Nov 23, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I was raised in an old, country, Southern Baptist church, attending Sunday night and Wednesday night services, choir, and all the other church activities.  At the age of 13, I walked down the isle, got down on my knees at the alter, and accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior.  I was baptized and joined the church.  My faith was strong and my belief was unwavering.
> 
> I continually studied the Bible and any other reference material I could get my hands on.  I felt strongly that God was calling me to become a preacher.  I prayed about that for about two years, all the while living as Christ-like as I could.  I witnessed and successfully led others to Christ.
> 
> ...



I'm glad you finally gave the above paragraph.  Believe it or now, there are people on this forum who actually believed you were a Christian.  Divisive and confusing and as dense as the back wall of a barn, but a Christian.

Enjoy your decoder ring, and remember this:  Just because you don't believe an assertion doesn't mean the assertion isn't true.

For some, the seed falls upon rocky, weedy soil so the seed cannot thrive and continue to grow.  It eventually withers away.  But there'll be many more seed falling.  
It took a few sown seeds for me.


----------



## Bama4me (Nov 23, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> The point of the above is this;
> 
> I do not accept the assertion that there is an "understanding" that is not available to me because only believers are granted the ability to comprehend what scripture really says or what God really wants.  I was a member of the "club" in good standing and I still have my secret decoder ring.



Right there with you… the assertion simply isn't true.


----------



## BT Charlie (Nov 23, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> Right there with you… the assertion simply isn't true.



I don't know much. And I'm certainly not into doctrinal things like you Bama.  So,with respect, I ask you to cite scripture for your belief that a nonbeliever understands the Word? 

And can you distinguish whatever you have in mind from the specific statements that to the unbeliever the Word is babble.  

Jesus wept.  With a decoder ring, are you equating an understanding that Jesus's emotion caused tears with a believer's ubderstanding of this verse?  The love indwelling the believer understands -- what in his mind he sees, feels, hears ... a glimpse of the why of it... the tomb, Mary and here in my heart, upon which his mercy flowed, freeing me of guilt and condemnation. What seminary suggests the understandings are equivalents?

Now that's the shortest verse in the whole she-bang.  No sense getting to more 
complex scripture.  I already see realms of difference between a Christ Follower's glimpse of understanding of the why of it and a trivia meister who knows it's the shortest verse in the Bible and that Jesus was upset.

Maybe I misunderstand your intended point.  Or do birds of a feather flock together?


Many thanks.


----------



## BT Charlie (Nov 23, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> I'm glad you finally gave the above paragraph.  Believe it or now, there are people on this forum who actually believed you were a Christian.  Divisive and confusing and as dense as the back wall of a barn, but a Christian.
> 
> Enjoy your decoder ring, and remember this:  Just because you don't believe an assertion doesn't mean the assertion isn't true.
> 
> ...



Amen.  God bless you, Ronnie.   May God also bless Mr. Hawg.


----------



## BT Charlie (Nov 23, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I have a high school education.  I was very close to entering seminary but my situation changed.  The little bit of Christian and biblical knowledge I have was a result of being raised in church, by reading the Bible and other materials I could get my hands on, and revealed to me by the Holy Spirit if you believe that sort of thing.




If high school is the most formal education you received, which is not precisely what you said, I wonder if the Internet is a father of your doubt, too, as well as your source of questions/answers?


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 25, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> I'm glad you finally gave the above paragraph.  Believe it or now, there are people on this forum who actually believed you were a Christian.  Divisive and confusing and as dense as the back wall of a barn, but a Christian.
> 
> Enjoy your decoder ring, and remember this:  Just because you don't believe an assertion doesn't mean the assertion isn't true.
> 
> ...



I know that it is more comfortable for you to believe that it is impossible for a "true believer" to reach a point in their life where they no longer believe.  It is more comfortable for you to rely on some unsubstantiated theory that if he walks away from Christianity he was never "really" saved.  Just because you believe that, doesn't make it true.


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 25, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> I don't know much. And I'm certainly not into doctrinal things like you Bama.  So,with respect, I ask you to cite scripture for your belief that a nonbeliever understands the Word?
> 
> And can you distinguish whatever you have in mind from the specific statements that to the unbeliever the Word is babble.
> 
> ...



I was saved.  I believed.  I had faith.  I read and comprehended scripture.

When I began to doubt, was there some type of brainwashing to erase the "secret knowledge" I had obtained and some type of filter reinstalled to prevent me from comprehending scripture in the future?


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 25, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> If high school is the most formal education you received, which is not precisely what you said, I wonder if the Internet is a father of your doubt, too, as well as your source of questions/answers?



My doubt stems from observing the world around me and not seeing anything to substantiate what is written in scripture.  

I do not interpret this to mean that there is no God.  I do not interpret this to mean that Jesus did not die for our sins.  I interpret this to mean that God is not currently actively involved in our personal lives.  

God abandoned His people many times throughout the Bible due to their sins.  It is arrogant to think that it couldn't happen to us now.


----------



## BT Charlie (Nov 25, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I was saved.  I believed.  I had faith.  I read and comprehended scripture.
> 
> When I began to doubt, was there some type of brainwashing to erase the "secret knowledge" I had obtained and some type of filter reinstalled to prevent me from comprehending scripture in the future?



HawgJawl, I hope only the best for you in all things as God wills.  

It is impossible for me to counsel you on this subject, without the benefit of actually sitting down and visiting, praying together, etc.  If that is something you are interested in, please send me pm.  I am also open to introducing you to brothers who've "been there" when it comes to leading others to reconciliation in the Word.

In the meantime, may I suggest that the answer to your question -- which I perceive as another attempt at sarcasm (not disrespectful but not quite serious either)  -- literally could be "yes."  

Please consider it possible that you have come into communion with deceptive spirits that have influenced you.  

All of us are wise to frequently examine ourselves for our motivation, understanding and attitudes.  Have we come in contact with or under influence by those who do not believe, or those who not only do not believe but also practice arts within the occult, etc.? What is their ability to influence us daily? Are we unequally yoked in a significant relationship with them? 

If our spouses were to hold that the Word is fiction, or can be applied piecemeal, and in turn practice the occult and demand that we respect them for their beliefs, then where would that leave us?  Where would one's soul be in that tug of war.  Perhaps right where Adam was when he observed and allowed Eve's deception?  There is nothing new under the sun, here.

You need to answer for yourself whether you are in the midst of very intense spiritual battle causing you to be double-minded.  You'll have to continue to love your brothers in Christ who love the Word more than friends or relatives who take divergent paths.  It can be prickly and tough to do.  

So, the answer to your question on brainwashing may be far more pertinent than you ever imagined possible when you asked it.  

With respect to my points for Bama, I do not subscribe to the notion that one who practices the occult will have anywhere near the understanding of Scripture as a Christ follower.  Jesus wept.  That is my starting point for the divergence of understanding.  Perhaps a satanist can read this and get it is a short verse and Jesus was upset to the point of tears.   But that is the end of similarities, in my view.  

Again, I wish you well.

Blessings.


----------



## BT Charlie (Nov 25, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> My doubt stems from observing the world around me and not seeing anything to substantiate what is written in scripture.
> 
> I do not interpret this to mean that there is no God.  I do not interpret this to mean that Jesus did not die for our sins.  I interpret this to mean that God is not currently actively involved in our personal lives.
> 
> God abandoned His people many times throughout the Bible due to their sins.  It is arrogant to think that it couldn't happen to us now.



You experienced Christ's mercy in your life previously, and may God will that you will continue to experience it in your remaining days.  It is not arrogant to believe the Word and God's promises for those who love Him.  If you fear abandonment, may I suggest you need to study more.   

That you continue to have a love of Christ is strong testimony, in my mind, that He is wanting you to return to single-minded belief in the Word.  He loved you first. The next move is yours; please get on your knees, earnestly repent of your rebellion, and reopen your mind and heart to Christ.


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 25, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I was raised in an old, country, Southern Baptist church, attending Sunday night and Wednesday night services, choir, and all the other church activities.  At the age of 13, I walked down the isle, got down on my knees at the alter, and accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior.  I was baptized and joined the church.  My faith was strong and my belief was unwavering.
> 
> I continually studied the Bible and any other reference material I could get my hands on.  I felt strongly that God was calling me to become a preacher.  I prayed about that for about two years, all the while living as Christ-like as I could.  I witnessed and successfully led others to Christ.
> 
> ...



BT,

I stated the above because on this forum I often encounter people who claim that I can't understand scripture because I'm not a believer and only believers can comprehend scripture.  

I do not agree that only believers can comprehend scripture.

And even if it were true that only believers could understand scripture, I was a devoted believer for over half of my life, therefore the understanding I obtained during that time would not have magically disappeared.  Me doubting the truthfulness of it is very different than me not comprehending what it says.


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 25, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> It is not arrogant to believe the Word and God's promises for those who love Him.  If you fear abandonment, may I suggest you need to study more.



Scripture supports a belief that God abandons His people when they become too sinful, and I'm talking about abandoning all people, not just on an individual basis.

When God was pleased with His people and was supporting and protecting them, it was obvious and observable.  Each time God abandoned His people, they suffered the same as everyone else and there was no obvious or observable difference between His people and everyone else.

When I look around the world today, I see no obvious and observable difference between the folks claiming to be God's people and everyone else.


----------



## Ronnie T (Nov 25, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I know that it is more comfortable for you to believe that it is impossible for a "true believer" to reach a point in their life where they no longer believe.  It is more comfortable for you to rely on some unsubstantiated theory that if he walks away from Christianity he was never "really" saved.  Just because you believe that, doesn't make it true.



No, you placed me into the wrong category.  I do believe it's possible to walk away from God's grace, and lose it.  But as you described it, it doesn't appear that happened to you.


----------



## BT Charlie (Nov 25, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Scripture supports a belief that God abandons His people when they become too sinful, and I'm talking about abandoning all people, not just on an individual basis.
> 
> When God was pleased with His people and was supporting and protecting them, it was obvious and observable.  Each time God abandoned His people, they suffered the same as everyone else and there was no obvious or observable difference between His people and everyone else.
> 
> When I look around the world today, I see no obvious and observable difference between the folks claiming to be God's people and everyone else.



I disagree with you regarding your interpretation of scripture.  If you are refering to the Old Testament, I don't believe bringing a flood about to eliminate Nephilim and bringing nations against Israel can be construed as passive abandonment.  Likewise, I do not believe you can construe those events as a lack of love for his children.  Indeed, all those events point toward God's promise of Jesus Christ and the defeat of satan.

I also have a different view of the world today: there are obvious and observable differences today between believers and nonbelievers.  I ask whether you see what you must see or need to see to preserve your double-minded doubt?  Or a relationship with a nonbeliever?  Indeed, I believe the church is coming under a great deception now with respect to certain social issues.

If you loved Christ, you would forfeit these things you hold dear and exchange them for what He holds dear.  Tell me how much you love Christ, and show me how you glorify Him for what He has done for you specifically?  

You did not reply to the discussion about brainwashing and deception.  Since you raised it, is it possible you are being deceived in mind and spirit? If it is possible, how would you know if you are or are not subject to deception? What is your standard for the test? 

Finally, I disagree with you and Bama that nonbelievers or double minded believers can understand scripture the way the Holy Spirit meets believers where they are when they read the Word.    I'd like you or Bama to quote scripture for this proposition, and contrast it to scripture that says the Word is beyond comprehension of nonbelievers.


----------



## BT Charlie (Nov 25, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> BT,
> 
> I stated the above because on this forum I often encounter people who claim that I can't understand scripture because I'm not a believer and only believers can comprehend scripture.
> 
> ...



Thanks, Hawg.  I did not see your response to the notion that you may simply be deceived by satanic influence in the world generally or in your life specifically.  What say you about this?

Are you equally yoked to a believer who prays to Jesus with you daily, and yet you doubt?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Nov 25, 2013)

If non believers can't understand the written Gospel without the Holy Spirit's guidance, how do they ever become saved? 
Is it the "measure of faith" God gives them?


----------



## Ronnie T (Nov 26, 2013)

John 20:
28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 
29 Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”
30 Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 
31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.


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## gemcgrew (Nov 26, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> I don't know much. And I'm certainly not into doctrinal things like you Bama.  So,with respect, I ask you to cite scripture for your belief that a nonbeliever understands the Word?


He has to hold this position in order to remain consistent in his theology. If he bends here, he has to embrace the doctrine of Total Depravity (Total Inability). In order to maintain the position that man is capable of saving himself, he must side with Hawg on this issue. Not that this gives Hawg any legitimacy, for he has admitted his lack of understanding.


----------



## gemcgrew (Nov 26, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> If non believers can't understand the written Gospel without the Holy Spirit's guidance, how do they ever become saved?


When the Gospel comes by the  power of God, the blind will see and the deaf will hear.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 26, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> I also have a different view of the world today: there are obvious and observable differences today between believers and nonbelievers.  I ask whether you see what you must see or need to see to preserve your double-minded doubt?  Or a relationship with a nonbeliever?  Indeed, I believe the church is coming under a great deception now with respect to certain social issues.



Could you please point a few out to me?  Things that are observable and measurable so that they can be compared between believers and non-believers.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 26, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> You did not reply to the discussion about brainwashing and deception.  Since you raised it, is it possible you are being deceived in mind and spirit? If it is possible, how would you know if you are or are not subject to deception? What is your standard for the test?



It is possible that Satan is deceiving both of us.  No matter what you and I believe or do, if it is not what God requires we are equally lost.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 26, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> Thanks, Hawg.  I did not see your response to the notion that you may simply be deceived by satanic influence in the world generally or in your life specifically.  What say you about this?
> 
> Are you equally yoked to a believer who prays to Jesus with you daily, and yet you doubt?



My entire family is Christian.  The only unequal yoke is due to me.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 26, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> Finally, I disagree with you and Bama that nonbelievers or double minded believers can understand scripture the way the Holy Spirit meets believers where they are when they read the Word.    I'd like you or Bama to quote scripture for this proposition, and contrast it to scripture that says the Word is beyond comprehension of nonbelievers.



What most Christians label as "understanding" is far from it.  I was raised in an environment of blindly believing anything that any preacher said no matter if it directly contradicted what they or another preacher said a week prior.  I was told to stop questioning and just have faith.  That is not understanding.


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## Israel (Nov 26, 2013)

Here is what we are left with.
Jesus raises Lazarus from the dead. And the minions of the pharisees see it...and report back to them...sorta "ratting out" Jesus.

This leaves folks in a few possible positions
1. To believe the account is bogus...

2. To believe the account is true, and kinda scratch one's head as to why even a Pharisee's toady wouldn't instantly seek to become a disciple of Jesus.

3. To know the account is true, and also know that men are blinded to the truth...and significance...of not only any "thing"...but everything until the Lord gives grace. Men really don't know their right hands from their left, don't know anything...at all...except what is given them. And so men will sit at the Lord's table, eat his biscuits, and call him a jerk. 
Till all they didn't know...is suddenly made manifest. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.


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## BT Charlie (Nov 26, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Could you please point a few out to me?  Things that are observable and measurable so that they can be compared between believers and non-believers.



Surely.  Let me come at it this way:  My testimony is Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior.  The Bible is the inerrant Word of the one true God.  I love Jesus with all my heart, with all my thought, with all my being.  And I pray the same is true for you and all who read this.

Now, let's measure how close you can come to these statements, topic for topic.  The gap will be the first level of differences I see between believers and the world.


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## BT Charlie (Nov 26, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> It is possible that Satan is deceiving both of us.  No matter what you and I believe or do, if it is not what God requires we are equally lost.



It is not possible that satan is deceiving me.  He is defeated in my life. And when he reminds me of my past, I remind him of his future.


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## BT Charlie (Nov 26, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> What most Christians label as "understanding" is far from it.  I was raised in an environment of blindly believing anything that any preacher said no matter if it directly contradicted what they or another preacher said a week prior.  I was told to stop questioning and just have faith.  That is not understanding.



Quantative metrics for your broad generalization?  

I'm not sure your environment or emotional reaction to it justifies any conclusion in your life but that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior.  Blessings.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 26, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> Surely.  Let me come at it this way:  My testimony is Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior.  The Bible is the inerrant Word of the one true God.  I love Jesus with all my heart, with all my thought, with all my being.  And I pray the same is true for you and all who read this.
> 
> Now, let's measure how close you can come to these statements, topic for topic.  The gap will be the first level of differences I see between believers and the world.



Those things are not observable and measurable by me.  I do not know what is truly in your heart.  

God knows your heart and if what you wrote above is really true.  If it is true then congratulations, you are a perfect Christian.  There is no sin in your life, no sinful thoughts, nor an occasion in which you fall short of glorifying God in all that you do.


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## Israel (Nov 26, 2013)

lost as one wantsa be or saved as one wantsa be. both the same.
and it's not "if I believe the right way I make God happy and he gives me salvation..."
Salvation has so much less to do with how happy you think you want to make God, than believing how happy he wants to make you.


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## BT Charlie (Nov 26, 2013)

Israel said:


> Here is what we are left with.
> Jesus raises Lazarus from the dead. And the minions of the pharisees see it...and report back to them...sorta "ratting out" Jesus.
> 
> This leaves folks in a few possible positions
> ...



Amen.

And let me exit this doctrinal quicksand I walked into by simply saying, "Jesus Christ is Lord and Savoir."  My utmost hope is that those who are blinded to the truth yet think they understand soon experience that moment, in a twinkling of an eye, when the love and mercy of Christ becomes known.


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## BT Charlie (Nov 26, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Those things are not observable and measurable by me.  I do not know what is truly in your heart.
> 
> God knows your heart and if what you wrote above is really true.  If it is true then congratulations, you are a perfect Christian.  There is no sin in your life, no sinful thoughts, nor an occasion in which you fall short of glorifying God in all that you do.




Er, not quite what I said or meant to imply.  The only thing righteous in me is Christ.  Nothing particularly good or redeeming about me at all, as I show repeatedly here. And I apologize if I came off that way to you.

Nevertheless, I beg to differ on both the observable and measurable counts you mention.

Does my post not demonstrate, observably, that a believer will in fact publicly confess love and submissiveness to Christ, as well as a desire to glorify his Lord and Savior?

And as for you, representing doubt, given the opportunity under observation to similarly confess love and a desire to glorify your Lord and Savior, you do not.  That is observable and measurable, and frankly what I see in the world today more and more.

If you are able to type, letter-for-letter, an equivalent series of statements as I, topic-by-topic, and then profess you mean all of it -- then maybe we have a tie.  

I don't suppose that can happen, though, as it would nullify much of what you've written around here.  You are an honest person, not a false person.  Similarly, I have never given you reason to doubt my veracity, which is really not that which needs to be measured.  What is observable and measurable is our testimony, which reflects much.

Sadly, one cannot joyfully submit to the authority of a Lord and Savior one doubts even exists.  

It is much more comfortable to discuss trivia questions premised on human knowledge.   Blessings


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## BT Charlie (Nov 26, 2013)

Israel said:


> lost as one wantsa be or saved as one wantsa be. both the same.
> and it's not "if I believe the right way I make God happy and he gives me salvation..."
> Salvation has so much less to do with how happy you think you want to make God, than believing how happy he wants to make you.



Yes, imagine the joy of the blind able to see.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 26, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> Does my post not demonstrate, observably, that a believer will in fact publicly confess love and submissiveness to Christ, as well as a desire to glorify his Lord and Savior?



Public professions are no indicator of truth.  We can find many television evangelists who make public professions of their love and devotion to Jesus.  If public profession is the measurement, the one with the largest audience must be the most righteous.


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## BT Charlie (Nov 26, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Public professions are no indicator of truth.  We can find many television evangelists who make public professions of their love and devotion to Jesus.  If public profession is the measurement, the one with the largest audience must be the most righteous.



You've made the point I offered, even if you find it a dull one.  Believers have a testimony, others have doubt.  You couldn't even muster a false testimony to prove this point wrong, which again is a measurable observation in our context among forumites.

Pointing to TV evangelists is a red herring. If there is any audience here, they take for granted that you and I are being honest within our abilities to do so.  We are disclosing that which we profess to be on our hearts.  One reflects relative joy, peace and love for Jesus, the other embodies doubt, frustration, anything but repentant confession.

You won't surely die.  Your eyes will be open, like God, and you will be able to know the difference between right and wrong.  For what you think is a fairy tale between two nonexistent characters, and a talking serpent, it pretty much nails it here, right?


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## HawgJawl (Nov 26, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> Sadly, one cannot joyfully submit to the authority of a Lord and Savior one doubts even exists.



My current doubts aren't focused on whether Christianity is valid, but whether God is currently, actively involved in the lives of the majority of people who make those claims.  

People claim that God put gas in their gas tank to help them make it to the convenience store.  People claim that God kept the police officer from pulling them over when they were speeding.  Certain things happen to people all over the world, of all different religions or no religion, but when things happen to Christians, most will cite it as proof that God is doing something in their lives.

I do not find in scripture any examples of God performing miracles for the purpose of saving man some extra work or to make man feel better.  Yet I hear testimonies of this type of stuff all the time.

I believe that if a man today were righteous enough in God's eyes for God to use that person for His glory, God might perform a miracle to clear the way for this man while the man is obeying God's direction.  But when I look around, I do not see this occurring right now.  

I'm not saying that can't occur or that it's not occurring somewhere outside of my knowledge.  I just don't see it in all the testimonies I hear constantly about what God did for someone today.


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## BT Charlie (Nov 26, 2013)

Are we not instructed to have a grateful heart and to give thanks in all circumstances?  Is not the mere desire of one to be thankful to God in all things sufficient testimony, i.e., observable evidence, of Christ's active ministry?


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## HawgJawl (Nov 26, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> You've made the point I offered, even if you find it a dull one.  Believers have a testimony, others have doubt.  You couldn't even muster a false testimony to prove this point wrong, which again is a measurable observation in our context among forumites.



Believers go to church more often than unbelievers.  That is observable and measurable.

Can I refer you back to what I posted about observable and measurable when I asked for an example?



HawgJawl said:


> When God was pleased with His people and was supporting and protecting them, it was obvious and observable.  Each time God abandoned His people, they suffered the same as everyone else and there was no obvious or observable difference between His people and everyone else.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 26, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> Are we not instructed to have a grateful heart and to give thanks in all circumstances?  Is not the mere desire of one to be thankful to God in all things sufficient testimony, i.e., observable evidence, of Christ's active ministry?



I actually heard this testimony:
The man was driving drunk home from the bar and saw a police car and immediately start praying "God, please don't let him pull me over".  God kept him from going to jail that night.  God is so good.

This is an example of attributing a random event to God doing something for you.  Does this glorify God?  Can you think of anyone who might be insulted by the assertion that God supports drunk driving?  Can you imagine a scenerio in which this could portray a negative image for Christianity?


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## BT Charlie (Nov 26, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I actually heard this testimony:
> The man was driving drunk home from the bar and saw a police car and immediately start praying "God, please don't let him pull me over".  God kept him from going to jail that night.  God is so good.
> 
> This is an example of attributing a random event to God doing something for you.  Does this glorify God?  Can you think of anyone who might be insulted by the assertion that God supports drunk driving?  Can you imagine a scenerio in which this could portray a negative image for Christianity?



I don't think it is appropriate for sinners to thank God for getting away with sin, or for those committing crimes to thank God for getting away with crime.  The only act more inappropriate perhaps is my employment of this emoticon under the circumstances


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## BT Charlie (Nov 26, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Believers go to church more often than unbelievers.  That is observable and measurable.
> 
> Can I refer you back to what I posted about observable and measurable when I asked for an example?



Believers also testify, and others, well ...  and we do not defeat the enemy through observable, measurable fact...but by our testimony and the Blood of the Lamb

As for the referral, I disagree with your premise, as I've said before.  Did the father abandon the prodigal son?  In his rebellion, on the lam, perhaps the son does indeed feel abandoned by the father. 

 Isn't that a handy excuse for the rebel who has run off...


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## hummerpoo (Nov 26, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> My current doubts aren't focused on whether Christianity is valid, but whether God is currently, actively involved in the lives of the majority of people who make those claims.
> 
> People claim that God put gas in their gas tank to help them make it to the convenience store.  People claim that God kept the police officer from pulling them over when they were speeding.  Certain things happen to people all over the world, of all different religions or no religion, but when things happen to Christians, most will cite it as proof that God is doing something in their lives.
> 
> ...



Please do not take this post as an indication that I wish to get involved in the conversation.  I just couldn’t pass up the opportunity to point out an example of the sort of focus that is diametrically opposed to the teaching of scripture.


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## Israel (Nov 26, 2013)

You don't have to receive anyone's testimony.
You and I receive what we receive.
If you can't believe God can show mercy to a drunk driver, a working barrister, a foolish nurse, and the myriad others who bear testimony of God's goodness toward them, through Christ, you will receive according as your faith allows.
Now, personally, I can only say I need the God who shows mercy, never upon merit or worthy recompense. 
Someone like me could not be saved by a God of pickier administrations.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 26, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> When the Gospel comes by the  power of God, the blind will see and the deaf will hear.



God does speak to us today, and we don't have a choice but to listen. When God first speaks to that lost person, is he then saved?


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## BT Charlie (Nov 27, 2013)

Ask HawgJawl.  

Education, access to the Internet, and formalistic Christ followers ... root causes separating a once saved person from Christ? Or is manic doubt and constant criticism of scripture in the name of TRUTH evidence that a saving knowledge was never obtained? Rocky soil, manifest?

Is there a heart problem seminary can ascertain in this mindset: Prove it to me father, all of it, or I will publicly cast doubt on your truth. If the morons who serve and follow You can't answer brain teasers I get off the Internet, well then your Word is untrue and my doubt justified.  Only simpletons believe, while the enlightened can tell right from wrong. Like God.  And as a silly serpent said in the silly fable with made up characters in that first book of Yours.

Sin.

 Cherished doubt, sin, so easily released ... voluntarily... poof ... yet so desperately held ... willingly, greedily...like illicit contraband...for what?  Why?     A beautiful child, raging in tantrum, refusing to breathe.  

Rebellion is as rebellion does.  I can't explain it, but a rebel knows another.  The foot of the cross is the best place to take a knee, take a breather, chill. 

Something's gotta give college boy.  May God speak it so.


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## Jeffriesw (Nov 27, 2013)

Sorry I am a little late to the party, I do not get in here as much as I used too.

My comments are in red



04ctd said:


> in reading some of you on here, I have realized I needed more knowledge: sound scriptural knowledge about what/how/why the Bible says things.
> 
> Excellent, I have found my self in the same boat when I  became a Christian almost 5 years ago .
> 
> ...



I think this is a bit of a false dichotomy, but I believe I understand the question you meant. A man either has the call to preach (both inward and outward) or he doesn't. I do not think a formal education either qualifies, nor disqualifies a man to preach. The Bible gives the requirements for a preacher/teacher. A good thorough and Biblical education can be a huge benefit to a man who is going to preach, but is it mandatory? no.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 27, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> Ask HawgJawl.
> 
> Education, access to the Internet, and formalistic Christ followers ... root causes separating a once saved person from Christ? Or is manic doubt and constant criticism of scripture in the name of TRUTH evidence that a saving knowledge was never obtained? Rocky soil, manifest?
> 
> ...



Isn't it possible God has hardened HawgJawl's heart as he did Pharaoh's heart in Romans 9:17?

For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

His doubt can strengthen our faith. God has mercy on whomever. 
HawgJawls questions strengthens my quest to search for answers.


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## BT Charlie (Nov 27, 2013)

Israel said:


> You don't have to receive anyone's testimony.
> You and I receive what we receive.
> If you can't believe God can show mercy to a drunk driver, a working barrister, a foolish nurse, and the myriad others who bear testimony of God's goodness toward them, through Christ, you will receive according as your faith allows.
> Now, personally, I can only say I need the God who shows mercy, never upon merit or worthy recompense.
> Someone like me could not be saved by a God of pickier administrations.



Yes, I am convicted by a movie reel of episodes played back since last evening.  I've praised God and meant it dearly for not receiving the deserving reward for my sin.

Alive in Christ, dead to offense.  Who is a sinner to cast stones at another sinner?  He praised God for forgiveness: drunk driver getting home; adulterer remaining in marriage, and on and on.  

I've not yet been fool enough to pray for what I deserve....


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## HawgJawl (Nov 27, 2013)

Israel said:


> If you can't believe God can show mercy to a drunk driver, a working barrister, a foolish nurse, and the myriad others who bear testimony of God's goodness toward them, through Christ, you will receive according as your faith allows.





BT Charlie said:


> Yes, I am convicted by a movie reel of episodes played back since last evening.  I've praised God and meant it dearly for not receiving the deserving reward for my sin.
> 
> Alive in Christ, dead to offense.  Who is a sinner to cast stones at another sinner?  He praised God for forgiveness: drunk driver getting home; adulterer remaining in marriage, and on and on.



I want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly.  You believe that God would miraculously intervene to prevent a criminal from being caught by law enforcement during the commission of a crime?

This is not about forgiveness from God.  This is about the type of situation in which God chooses to miraculously change the course of events to benefit just one person.


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## BT Charlie (Nov 27, 2013)

Define it as you will. 

My (feel free to insert "your") sin in God's eyes is no less than that of a drunken driver.  The offense you declare, or advocate for the politically correct world, at a drunken driver's having thanked God for not getting caught, is no worse in God's sight than my own similar sin in falling short and being thankful to God that I did not receive that which I richly earned.

Such is salvation in Christ.  God's righteousness is the only righteousness.  Through Christ, it is available to you, me and drunk drivers.  It is wordly madness for one prisoner to scoff at the flaws of another prisoner.  The absence of offense where the world is offended and condemns, now that is observable, measurable evidence of the freeing result of salvation.  Israel -- as usual -- is right on in refocusing us on how much God intends to love and benefit us.  Not because of what we do, but because of who He is.

I do also believe that the Holy Spirit and Christ speak to criminals, like us even, who are not imprisoned. And that the worst of these are capable of accepting Christ as their Lord and Savior.  The provident movement of God, the movement of the Holy Spirit, or miracle -- just man-labels for what is possible in Jesus Christ, alive today and ministering from the right hand of God the Father.

It says much to me to the extent you and the world think it unthinkable that God loves even criminals.  We're closer to criminals than God, in perfect measure.  What really separates us? That they were caught and we were not?  Also, absolutely I believe God can move in each of our lives, right here and now, as He wills.  He is not distant, and evidence of this is real and observable, if you have eyes to see and ears to hear.  

Blessings.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 27, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> Define it as you will.
> 
> My (feel free to insert "your") sin in God's eyes is no less than that of a drunken driver.  The offense you declare, or advocate for the politically correct world, at a drunken driver's having thanked God for not getting caught, is no worse in God's sight than my own similar sin in falling short and being thankful to God that I did not receive that which I richly earned.
> 
> ...



Your post is correct about God offering the gift of salvation to everyone including criminals.  But your post has absolutely nothing to do with my question. 



HawgJawl said:


> I want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly.  You believe that God would miraculously intervene to prevent a criminal from being caught by law enforcement during the commission of a crime?
> 
> This is not about forgiveness from God.  This is about the type of situation in which God chooses to miraculously change the course of events to benefit just one person.


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## BT Charlie (Nov 27, 2013)

Mmm.  Let me use braille; I apologize if it gets bumpy.

1 Thes. 5:16-18.  Rejoice always.  Pray continually, give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.

Your offense was not that the cop didn't catch this guy.  Your offense was the guy's thanking God, and believing God spared him from results he'd earned.  Yes, I do believe God spares us through Christ from results we otherwise earn, daily.  Miracle isn't a wrong word, in my view, though I won't debate it with wordsmiths here.  Yes, be clear: God can intervene in our lives any second, in wild ways.  

Do I believe that God would intervene to prevent a criminal from being caught by law enforcement during the commission of crime? Believe it or not, if it were God's will, I do think it possible.  His ways are above my ways.  A criminal's soul is justly deserving of salvation.  Why do you think God would not intervene in a criminal's fate.  A thief on cross testifies, no? Would it have been wrong for him to say thanks?


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 27, 2013)

Maybe God foresees the future and protects the person who will become a Christian. He protects the future Christians as with current Christians or even backsliding Christians.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 27, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe God foresees the future and protects the person who will become a Christian. He protects the future Christians as with current Christians or even backsliding Christians.



Protects in what way?


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## HawgJawl (Nov 27, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> Your offense was not that the cop didn't catch this guy.  Your offense was the guy's thanking God, and believing God spared him from results he'd earned.
> 
> No, I am specifically speaking of what circumstances God miraculously involves Himself in to change the course of events.  The child being molested and praying for God's help gets no help from God, but maybe that's because God was protecting the molester instead, because the molester might some day become a Christian and going to jail might somehow prevent that.
> 
> Do I believe that God would intervene to prevent a criminal from being caught by law enforcement during the commission of crime? Believer it or not, if it were God's will, I do think it possible.  His ways are above my ways.  A criminal's soul is justly deserving of salvation.



This is not about deserving salvation.  This is about the thousands of situation which desperately need miraculous intervention compared to the situations that have nothing to do with glorifying God but are credited to God if they are good and have nothing to do with God if they are bad.


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## BT Charlie (Nov 27, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Protects in what way?



By not abandoning or smiting a doubter, is that the same as protecting? Indeed, at times sinners must be turned over to satan so in time they repent and return to belief.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 27, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> By not abandoning or smiting a doubter, is that the same as protecting? Indeed, at times sinners must be turned over to satan so in time they repent and return to belief.



I was hoping for something tangible.  I should have known better.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 27, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Protects in what way?



He could protect the drunk driver from his death or the death of others until he is saved as God foreknew. 
God's foreknowledge and our somewhat freewill is beyond our comprehension. Our only answer if God knows what we will do or say before we do or say it but it was our choice. 

Psalm 139:16 You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed.


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## ambush80 (Nov 27, 2013)

Quote:

No, I am specifically speaking of what circumstances God miraculously involves Himself in to change the course of events. The child being molested and praying for God's help gets no help from God, but maybe that's because God was protecting the molester instead, because the molester might some day become a Christian and going to jail might somehow prevent that.



HawgJawl said:


> This is not about deserving salvation.  This is about the thousands of situation which desperately need miraculous intervention compared to the situations that have nothing to do with glorifying God but are credited to God if they are good and have nothing to do with God if they are bad.



I'm confused.  Is the molestation of the girl in this scenario somehow being used to glorify God?


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## stringmusic (Nov 27, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> This is not about deserving salvation.  This is about the thousands of situation which desperately need miraculous intervention compared to the situations that have nothing to do with glorifying God but are credited to God if they are good and have nothing to do with God if they are bad.



Is HawgJawl the decider of when, where and how miraculous intervention is needed?


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## HawgJawl (Nov 27, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> He could protect the drunk driver from his death or the death of others until he is saved as God foreknew.
> God's foreknowledge and our somewhat freewill is beyond our comprehension. Our only answer if God knows what we will do or say before we do or say it but it was our choice.
> 
> Psalm 139:16 You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed.



Do you believe that God protects (some) Christians from (some) accidents, illness, or death, while not doing so for people of other religions or no religion?


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## HawgJawl (Nov 27, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Is HawgJawl the decider of when, where and how miraculous intervention is needed?



Scripture portrays a fairly clear picture of the specific types of situations in which God miraculously intervened in the past to change the course of events.  Based upon the examples in scripture, I cannot begin to comprehend the level of extreme narcissism required for a person to believe that God assisted them miraculously in the performance of an act that has nothing to do with glorifying God or furthering His Kingdom.


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## BT Charlie (Nov 27, 2013)

No, I am specifically speaking of what circumstances God miraculously involves Himself in to change the course of events. The child being molested and praying for God's help gets no help from God, but maybe that's because God was protecting the molester instead, because the molester might some day become a Christian and going to jail might somehow prevent that. 

The goal posts have moved.

Your original interrogatory was about God's mercy and grace intervening in the life of a drunken driver.

Now you've jumped into hyper doubt to an extreme hypothetical involving hypothetical injustice between a hypthetically molested child followed by hypothetical purposes being imputed to God for allowing the hypothetical injustice to occur in your mind in the first place.  With respect, this is absurd in a human logical sense.  Let God be God, then we'll chat. 

God involves Himself in all circumstances as He deems.  

There will be trouble in this world.  Better with Him, than without.

The conditions precedent you have placed on a saving knowledge of Christ perhaps have condemned you.  Show me where Christ or anyone in scripture urged folks in your shoes to wait for tangible observable proof that the viewer deems sufficient before believing.  Blessings.


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## hobbs27 (Nov 27, 2013)

I see a common thought in the minds of many atheist.

 " If God were real; bad things wouldnt happen to good innocent people."

 This side is not the side of Glory. Bad nasty and ugly things happen to really good people all the time. Some things so horrible that we cant get through them alone..

 Some folks try to get through them alone... I pray they find the Savior.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 27, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Is HawgJawl the decider of when, where and how miraculous intervention is needed?



Not me, but scripture says that any Christian with enough belief and faith can ask for anything and it will be granted, needed or not.

The converse of that would be that a person who is not a Christian with sufficient believe and faith could ask for a miracle which would not be granted because they don't qualify.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 27, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> I see a common thought in the minds of many atheist.
> 
> " If God were real; bad things wouldnt happen to good innocent people."
> 
> ...



I'm not making the argument that God should be involved in everything to prevent all bad things from happening.  I'm making the argument that God is NOT involved in these things, and if God does not involve Himself in stopping the child molester then He certainly does not involve Himself in helping the criminal get away.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 27, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Do you believe that God protects (some) Christians from (some) accidents, illness, or death, while not doing so for people of other religions or no religion?



Yes, He could also protect some Hindus that might become Christians in the future. Romans 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."


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## HawgJawl (Nov 27, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> No, I am specifically speaking of what circumstances God miraculously involves Himself in to change the course of events. The child being molested and praying for God's help gets no help from God, but maybe that's because God was protecting the molester instead, because the molester might some day become a Christian and going to jail might somehow prevent that.
> 
> The goal posts have moved.
> 
> ...



The only time my comments related to God's mercy and grace intervening in the life of a drunk driver was when I had to repeatedly say that this is not what I am talking about.  I have been clear that this is about a criminal praying for God to assist them in getting away with their crime and then claiming that God MIRACULOUSLY intervened in the natural course of events in order to help the criminal get away.  

I then compared this to other people praying for God's assistance but getting none.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 27, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Do you believe that God protects (some) Christians from (some) accidents, illness, or death, while not doing so for people of other religions or no religion?





Artfuldodger said:


> Yes, He could also protect some Hindus that might become Christians in the future. Romans 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."



Do you believe that statistics show that Christians suffer less accidents, illness, premature death, etc.?


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## BT Charlie (Nov 27, 2013)

Then Jacob was left alone; and a Man wrestled with him until the breaking of day. Now when He saw that He did not prevail against him He touched the socket of his hip; and the socket of Jacob's hip was out of joint as He wrestled with him.—Genesis 32:24-25.

Sometimes God has to rassle us to submission, Hawg.  I don't have a problem with a criminal praying to God to conceal his crimes, and then proclaiming it was a miracle that his crimes were not discovered.  That does not detract from my active belief in God, or from the truth of God.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 27, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> I don't have a problem with a criminal praying to God to conceal his crimes, and then proclaiming it was a miracle that his crimes were not discovered.  That does not detract from my active belief in God, or from the truth of God.



I don't doubt that.  I do think that false representations  such as "Jesus protects criminals from apprehension" could send the wrong message about Christianity and deter others from wanting anything to do with the religion.


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## hobbs27 (Nov 27, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I don't doubt that.  I do think that false representations  such as "Jesus protects criminals from apprehension" could send the wrong message about Christianity and deter others from wanting anything to do with the religion.



False?

John 8

3-And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

4- They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5- Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6- This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

7--So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

8- And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9- And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10- -When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11-She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 27, 2013)

This is what I love about this forum.  If I had come in here making the claim that God hindered law enforcement from apprehending a criminal during the commission of the crime, you folks would be arguing the opposite side of this debate.

Should we assume that unsolved crimes are ones where God took the side of the perpetrator?


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## BT Charlie (Nov 27, 2013)

Hawg, you agree that it is possible that God can intervene to let a criminal go free for His purposes?  I mean, regardless of what your buddies or the polls say, all things in Christ are possible. Not some, not many, not most but all things ... .

Metaphorically, I am proof that God intervenes and sets criminals free.  In my opinion, the same metaphorically goes for you, at least 
thus far.  It matters not what is politically correct according to the latest surveys.  Or do you cringe if others discount your knowledge and faith?


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## BT Charlie (Nov 27, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Isn't it possible God has hardened HawgJawl's heart as he did Pharaoh's heart in Romans 9:17?
> 
> For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
> 
> ...




Sure, Art, I think that is quite possible.  Though I pray Hawg returns to Christ and gets busy with glorifying testimony rather than this stuff. That said, I'm glad Hawg's style inspires you in biblical quest; God can use each of us, right?

Thanksgiving blessings to all.


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## BT Charlie (Nov 27, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I don't doubt that.  I do think that false representations  such as "Jesus protects criminals from apprehension" could send the wrong message about Christianity and deter others from wanting anything to do with the religion.



I think the Holy Spirit can make complete silence, or the sound of the tide, or merely the wind speak as God wills, to anyone... I'm confident that God can speak to whom He will, through whom He will, and how He will.  

Things got said to you, which you point to as a source of your doubt.  So now you withhold belief in demand of tangible, measurable proof of a God you can understand on your terms. . Yet I am confident God will use you for His purpose.  I just wish you could enjoy His love in the same fashion as many here do, without condition. That you're missing that is the real crime.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 27, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> I think the Holy Spirit can make complete silence, or the sound of the tide, or merely the wind speak as God wills, to anyone... I'm confident that God can speak to whom He will, through whom He will, and how He will.
> 
> Things got said to you, which you point to as a source of your doubt.  So now you withhold belief in demand of tangible, measurable proof of a God you can understand on your terms. . Yet I am confident God will use you for His purpose.  I just wish you could enjoy His love in the same fashion as many here do, without condition. That you're missing that is the real crime.



I think many people are jumping to conclusions regarding what I believe.  And what I believe changes daily, in large due to other's ability or inability to present a sensible explanation for their assertions.

There is a huge difference between doubting that God performed a miracle to help someone out of the natural consequences of a stupid decision and doubting that God exists.  When I express doubt that God filled someone's gas tank, it should not automatically be assumed that I am saying that God doesn't exist or is incapable of performing miracles.


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## BT Charlie (Nov 27, 2013)

My apologies, HJ.  I have not been a very good discusser of stuff you wanted to discuss and I regret that.  You are in truth far brighter and more reasonable than I, which I freely and humbly concede.  If it matters, I do not hold any hard and fast conception of you or your beliefs and surely do not intend to judge your heart.  
My inability to visit on your wave length should not be taken as any condemnation or attempt to insult; as I've said, my motivations were quite the opposite despite my ineffectiveness. So, therefore, I naturally conclude with this foreseeable note: 

It would be cool to see you practice writing about how you know God loves you specifically, and how you feel in return.


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## hummerpoo (Nov 27, 2013)

I have failed in an attempt to briefly express the parallels which may exist between this conversation and the book of Job.  It seems to me that the only major element missing is God’s response to the whole thing (chapters 38 thru 41).


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 27, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I think many people are jumping to conclusions regarding what I believe.  And what I believe changes daily, in large due to other's ability or inability to present a sensible explanation for their assertions.
> 
> There is a huge difference between doubting that God performed a miracle to help someone out of the natural consequences of a stupid decision and doubting that God exists.  When I express doubt that God filled someone's gas tank, it should not automatically be assumed that I am saying that God doesn't exist or is incapable of performing miracles.



Everyone should also be reminded we have forum members who believe any and all activities by the Holy Spirit ceased when Christians learned to read the Bible and printed Bibles became readily available to the masses.
We also have forum members that believe prayer is just to show obedience to God and doesn't change anything.
So I can see where some Christians don't believe God intervenes or prayer  changes anything. There answer is usually, "how do you know it was from God?"
We covered this under the Snake Salvation thread:
http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=775350


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## gemcgrew (Nov 28, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Everyone should also be reminded we have forum members who believe any and all activities by the Holy Spirit ceased when Christians learned to read the Bible and printed Bibles became readily available to the masses.


What forum members believe this? I must have missed it.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 28, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> What forum members believe this? I must have missed it.



Exactly what I was thinking.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 28, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> My apologies, HJ.  I have not been a very good discusser of stuff you wanted to discuss and I regret that.  You are in truth far brighter and more reasonable than I, which I freely and humbly concede.  If it matters, I do not hold any hard and fast conception of you or your beliefs and surely do not intend to judge your heart.
> My inability to visit on your wave length should not be taken as any condemnation or attempt to insult; as I've said, my motivations were quite the opposite despite my ineffectiveness. So, therefore, I naturally conclude with this foreseeable note:
> 
> It would be cool to see you practice writing about how you know God loves you specifically, and how you feel in return.



Thank you for taking the time and effort to try to do what you believe is right for me.  You're a good man.

I hope everyone has a great Thanksgiving.

No matter to what you attribute your current station in life, simply being able to read this forum on our computers makes us far more fortunate than many people on this planet.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 28, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> What forum members believe this? I must have missed it.



Read the thread on "Snake Salvation." Some believers believe in the Holy Spirit but that he doesn't actively guide us any longer. Every decision we make is based on our ability to read the Bible correctly. No more gifts or intervention. There are variations from , no more tongues all the way to not even any guidance other than the Bible.

Here are two old threads on prayer. Beliefs range from praying out of obedience, God's will to be done, to intervention, to God didn't talk to people before the cross:

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=734185&highlight=pray

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=685179&highlight=prayer


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 28, 2013)

Quote from the "Snake Salvation" thread:

Yes, Jesus is alive in heaven (Romans 8:34). I also believe he communicates our needs to God (Romans 8:26), though He doesn't have to indwell us to accomplish the task. As far as the Holy Spirit indwelling, there are at least 4 views that are believed/taught. I'll try summarize each one briefly below.

* The Holy Spirit personally dwells within us and allows us the ability to do miraculous things (i.e. prophecy, tongues, etc.); in addition, He leads us in a way that is "separate and apart" from the written word; this "leading" is illustrated in Paul's experience in Acts 16:6-10.

* The Holy Spirit personally dwells within us but doesn't allow us to do miraculous things any longer (tongues, prophecy, etc. have ceased); the "leading" of the Spirit, though, still occurs today - people still receive "signs" from God and say "the Spirit put x on my heart".

* The Holy Spirit personally dwells within us, but no longer allows us to do miraculous things; nor does He lead us in a way which would be considered "separate and apart from the written word".

* The Holy Spirit no longer personally dwells within us and, as a result, doesn't allow us to do miraculous things; under this view, the Spirit's work to "lead people into all truth" was accomplished with the inspiration of the NT"... where we see the teachings/examples of the apostles/early church; under this view the "Holy Spirit in us" would be one of "representation" - though He doesn't literally dwell within us, He does IF we embody His teachings from Scripture; primary to this view is that we are told multiple times in the NT that Jesus and Christ also "dwell/abide in us" (1 John 4:16, 2 Corinthians 6:16, John 15:4-5, John 6:56, John 14:22-23, Ephesians 3:17, and Galatians 2:20); is Scripture saying God/Jesus personally inhabits our bodies... or is Scripture saying "God/Christ dwells in us as long as we try to imitate them in our lives" (similar to how we'd say about someone "his father lives in him today")?

As to what I believe, I subscribe to the two latter views... because I believe 1 Corinthians 13:1ff and Ephesians 4:11ff teach that there would come a time when miraculous works and miraculous leading would no longer be needed. When the written word was made available, as mentioned earlier, the purposes of these things would be able to be accomplished through the word.


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## 04ctd (Nov 28, 2013)

Swamp Runner said:


> A man either has the call to preach (both inward and outward) or he doesn't. I do not think a formal education either qualifies, nor disqualifies a man to preach. The Bible gives the requirements for a preacher/teacher. A good thorough and Biblical education can be a huge benefit to a man who is going to preach, but is it mandatory? no.



you pretty much summed it up, I don't need the school work, don't want to set in class for hours.

but i would like a deeper knowledge, 
i don't know that it will change anything.
and i dang sure don't want to hear no one "grind an axe" over his personal/denominational beliefs.

i will check out that link you posted.
one seminary required my Pastor to have an mDiv for me to be able to "intern" under him.


HJ & BT, i wish we had a "thread derail" gauge...it's all good though.

HJ's basis seems to be "how can I tell someone God is real, if bad things happen to good people who love God?"
(HJ, correct me if I am missing your point)

I would like for everyone (esp you guys who have been to seminary) to post how they handle/counsel/talk to people in those situations?


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## M80 (Nov 28, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> My current doubts aren't focused on whether Christianity is valid, but whether God is currently, actively involved in the lives of the majority of people who make those claims.
> 
> People claim that God put gas in their gas tank to help them make it to the convenience store.  People claim that God kept the police officer from pulling them over when they were speeding.  Certain things happen to people all over the world, of all different religions or no religion, but when things happen to Christians, most will cite it as proof that God is doing something in their lives.
> 
> ...



The very reason we woke up this morning, got out of bed, got ready to go somewhere is all God. He kept me breathing last night as I slept. God is in total control. The sun rising and going down. He is what keeps you alive everyday by his grace. There is nothing that takes God by surprise and he knows excatly when our appointment of death is. 

Now I was called to preach at age 19, I haven't been to a bible college. I think it can be a good thing. I wished I could speak more proper and use words like some of y'all can but working a full time job, pastoring a church, and raising my babies I do not have the time. I do see some other preachers I know that go to bible college and they seem to preach the same way. All the messages points start with the same letter and so on. At times I feel they are competing to see who can come up with the best outline. As a preacher we have to be careful what we preach is from God and not ourselves. Although I could come up with a good sermon I can't preach it unless The Lord lays it on my heart to preach it. I am nothing more than a willing vessel that The Lord preaches through. Sometimes I don't want to preach what he lays on my heart but I have to be obedient. All is vain unless the spirit of the holy one comes down


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## Jeffriesw (Dec 2, 2013)

04ctd said:


> you pretty much summed it up, I don't need the school work, don't want to set in class for hours.
> 
> but i would like a deeper knowledge,
> i don't know that it will change anything.
> ...



What denomination, if any, do you belong to?


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## HawgJawl (Dec 3, 2013)

04ctd said:


> HJ's basis seems to be "how can I tell someone God is real, if bad things happen to good people who love God?"
> (HJ, correct me if I am missing your point)



No, I'm not drawing the conclusion that there is no God.  I'm drawing the conclusion that God does not involve Himself in the tiny, insignificant, details of every Christian's life such as making sure they make it to the gas station when they fail to put gas in their car.  I do not believe that God spends His time and effort miraculously putting gas in Christians' gas tanks just to save them some inconvenience or embarrassment.

The reason I do not believe this is that the inconvenience incurred by running out of gas does not compare to the inconvenience of dying a slow painful death by cancer or being the victim of child molester.  

I believe that God either prioritizes issues worthy of a miracle, or there is a specific criteria for worthiness of a miracle based upon both the type of issue and the heart of the person asking for the miracle.  Either way, miracles throughout scripture have been solely for the purpose of furthering God's Kingdom.

Filling a gas tank does not fit any of the above criteria.  When I say that I do not believe that God miraculously filled your gas tank, I am not saying that there is no God.

So, as long as God allows horrible things to happen to good people, I do not believe He involves Himself in the insignificant details of average people's lives to save them from the trivial natural consequences of their actions, especially when it has nothing to do with furthering God's Kingdom.


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## M80 (Dec 3, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> No, I'm not drawing the conclusion that there is no God.  I'm drawing the conclusion that God does not involve Himself in the tiny, insignificant, details of every Christian's life such as making sure they make it to the gas station when they fail to put gas in their car.  I do not believe that God spends His time and effort miraculously putting gas in Christians' gas tanks just to save them some inconvenience or embarrassment.
> 
> The reason I do not believe this is that the inconvenience incurred by running out of gas does not compare to the inconvenience of dying a slow painful death by cancer or being the victim of child molester.
> 
> ...



The bible says "casting ALL your cares upon him, for he careth for you   1st Peter 5vrs7

Sounds to me he cares about every problem we have. I've prayed for the light to be green when I've been running a little behind, come around the curve and well it's green. I give god the glory for it. Sometimes it's not. He knows what's up ahead to keep me safe. It's good to have a child like faith


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## HawgJawl (Dec 3, 2013)

mwilliams80 said:


> The bible says "casting ALL your cares upon him, for he careth for you   1st Peter 5vrs7
> 
> Sounds to me he cares about every problem we have. I've prayed for the light to be green when I've been running a little behind, come around the curve and well it's green. I give god the glory for it. Sometimes it's not. He knows what's up ahead to keep me safe. It's good to have a child like faith



You're traveling on road A praying for a green traffic light because you're running behind.  Two Christians are traveling on cross-road B praying for a green traffic light because they're running behind.  Does the green light go to the majority or the one who prays the hardest or the one most worthy?


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## hobbs27 (Dec 3, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> You're traveling on road A praying for a green traffic light because you're running behind.  Two Christians are traveling on cross-road B praying for a green traffic light because they're running behind.  Does the green light go to the majority or the one who prays the hardest or the one most worthy?



Which was Gods will?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 3, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Which was Gods will?



If it was already God's will why did any of them pray to begin with? They are praying for God to intervene and make the light green for their personal help. 
If I have cancer, I'm going to pray for God to intervene and wipe the cancer away by a miracle regardless of what his first intentions were.
It may be that God does not involve Himself in the tiny, insignificant, details of every Christian's life and life in general. If God gives us free will doesn't a little bit of random chance come with that freedom? 
Maybe this is where prayer and miracles come into play. God's letting all the randomness happen and cancer sneaks into my body by a cell mutation. I pray for God to destroy the mutated cells. He's constantly listening to our requests and intervenes if he sees fit. I don't know how he makes that choice, God has freewill also. We are made in his image.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 3, 2013)

I can't figure out when God orchestrates events for his  personal use like the Moses/Pharaoh/passover story and when we get to use our own freewill. Freewill is the thing that messes with the logic of Christianity. With Predestination, God and our lives are easier to understand. Freewill & randomness makes more sense because we know we have choices. We go to the doctor, exercise, and eat right. We believe in God and try not to sin. We hope we don't wreck on the way to work. We even try really really hard not to wreck. We drive defensively watching the other driver. If everthing was God's will we would cruise to work on auto/God pilot. Asking God for help getting to work is completely different that believing God controls the whole trip.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 3, 2013)

Maybe God brings us into the world and takes us out but our mundane events are random with some life changing events controlled by God. God could orchestrate an event in my life for his purpose outside of my own free will such as with Noah or Moses.
After this event he gives my reins back to me. 
I guess I believe in "limited freewill."


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## hobbs27 (Dec 3, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> If it was already God's will why did any of them pray to begin with? They are praying for God to intervene and make the light green for their personal help.
> If I have cancer, I'm going to pray for God to intervene and wipe the cancer away by a miracle regardless of what his first intentions were.
> It may be that God does not involve Himself in the tiny, insignificant, details of every Christian's life and life in general. If God gives us free will doesn't a little bit of random chance come with that freedom?
> Maybe this is where prayer and miracles come into play. God's letting all the randomness happen and cancer sneaks into my body by a cell mutation. I pray for God to destroy the mutated cells. He's constantly listening to our requests and intervenes if he sees fit. I don't know how he makes that choice, God has freewill also. We are made in his image.



 Gods will is always done. A friend of mine tells a story about his brother dying. He prayed and prayed for his brothers healing; even fasted for days before his brother died. When his brother passed he said he grew angry with God and shouted out, _Why God? You say I have not because I ask not! You say if I have the faith of a mustard seed I could move mountains! Lord I asked and I have faith, so why did you not heal my brother?_ 

 Its then he said God softly spoke to him and said, "He is healed." 

 When we think about it ...this stop here in this world is not our home and its just a temporary place; there's a place waiting over there on the other side where we will be forever and ever---Home! The sting of death has been taken from the Christian.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 3, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Gods will is always done. A friend of mine tells a story about his brother dying. He prayed and prayed for his brothers healing; even fasted for days before his brother died. When his brother passed he said he grew angry with God and shouted out, _Why God? You say I have not because I ask not! You say if I have the faith of a mustard seed I could move mountains! Lord I asked and I have faith, so why did you not heal my brother?_
> 
> Its then he said God softly spoke to him and said, "He is healed."
> 
> When we think about it ...this stop here in this world is not our home and its just a temporary place; there's a place waiting over there on the other side where we will be forever and ever---Home! The sting of death has been taken from the Christian.



I understand that view of death and agree but does God let us prolong or hasten our own death by using our free will? Do you or your wife get medical exams? Do you believe eating has anything to do with longevity? What about reckless behavior?
Sometimes unanswered prayers are better as in the death of a loved one who is suffering.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 4, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I understand that view of death and agree but does God let us prolong or hasten our own death by using our free will? Do you or your wife get medical exams? Do you believe eating has anything to do with longevity? What about reckless behavior?
> Sometimes unanswered prayers are better as in the death of a loved one who is suffering.



Art, I believe all our prayers are answered, its just sometimes we dont understand the answer. If we pray for healing and we have Jesus as our savior then passing on from this world which is a world of suffering is a healing.

 Some will say, I dont suffer here. Anyone that lives very long will face suffering. I once knew of a lady that lived to be 105. Someone commented to her; it must be great to have lived as long as you have. Her reply?, " I don't think it is so great, I have lived long enough to watch every one of my children die."

 As for our health and habits. Sin is indeed the wage of death, but none of us are going to leave here until it is Gods will. I've known sickly people to live very long lives and Ive known very healthy people that were health conscience fall over dead at young ages. We do not live from bread alone but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. One thing is for sure, we all have an appointment with death, but those of us that have Christ as our savior will avoid the sting of it.

 As for free will and all that stuff--I don't know. I still dont bind Gods words by mans rules.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 4, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Art, I believe all our prayers are answered, its just sometimes we dont understand the answer. If we pray for healing and we have Jesus as our savior then passing on from this world which is a world of suffering is a healing.
> 
> Some will say, I dont suffer here. Anyone that lives very long will face suffering. I once knew of a lady that lived to be 105. Someone commented to her; it must be great to have lived as long as you have. Her reply?, " I don't think it is so great, I have lived long enough to watch every one of my children die."
> 
> ...



Free will, choices, believing, having faith, loving others, making good decisions, and being obedient to God is biblical.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 4, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Free will, choices, believing, having faith, loving others, making good decisions, and being obedient to God is biblical.



Yes, but there are rules one must follow once they label themselves freewill---or not. That's what I'm not really into...labeling yourself a certain kind of Christian then deny what scripture says and means because it is outside of the rules of your label.


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## M80 (Dec 4, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> If it was already God's will why did any of them pray to begin with? They are praying for God to intervene and make the light green for their personal help.
> If I have cancer, I'm going to pray for God to intervene and wipe the cancer away by a miracle regardless of what his first intentions were.
> It may be that God does not involve Himself in the tiny, insignificant, details of every Christian's life and life in general. If God gives us free will doesn't a little bit of random chance come with that freedom?
> Maybe this is where prayer and miracles come into play. God's letting all the randomness happen and cancer sneaks into my body by a cell mutation. I pray for God to destroy the mutated cells. He's constantly listening to our requests and intervenes if he sees fit. I don't know how he makes that choice, God has freewill also. We are made in his image.



Why pray?  God gives us the decision to accept him of reject him. He also gives us the decision whether we pray about something or not. We have not cause we ask not. If hezikahah hadn't prayed to have his life spared he wouldn't have, but because he prayed god gave him more years. Now think about this, God is all knowing right, before the foundation of the world. He gave us the decision to pray and he for knew what we was going pray cause he has done watched out our lives. I believe his will is determined a lot in what we pray. He knew what decision we was going to make when he watched our live giving us our own choice. So some might say why even pray but I'm going to pray and ask. We might not get all we ask for but if we never ask we will never get. There is criteria to receiving prayers from God and can be found in the bible when studying prayer. We are not going to give our children rewards when they are not behaving right. We reward them when they are doing right. Y'all might think I'm crazy but Abraham was a man like we are and he reasoned with God concerning Sodom and Gomarh with Lot.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 4, 2013)

mwilliams80 said:


> Why pray?  God gives us the decision to accept him of reject him. He also gives us the decision whether we pray about something or not. We have not cause we ask not. If hezikahah hadn't prayed to have his life spared he wouldn't have, but because he prayed god gave him more years. Now think about this, God is all knowing right, before the foundation of the world. He gave us the decision to pray and he for knew what we was going pray cause he has done watched out our lives. I believe his will is determined a lot in what we pray. He knew what decision we was going to make when he watched our live giving us our own choice. So some might say why even pray but I'm going to pray and ask. We might not get all we ask for but if we never ask we will never get. There is criteria to receiving prayers from God and can be found in the bible when studying prayer. We are not going to give our children rewards when they are not behaving right. We reward them when they are doing right. Y'all might think I'm crazy but Abraham was a man like we are and he reasoned with God concerning Sodom and Gomarh with Lot.



(If hezikahah hadn't prayed) Did he have a choice beings God already knew that he would pray, Would God have to change his will if Hezikahah hadn't prayed? 

(I believe his will is determined a lot in what we pray. )
How is this possible if he already knows what we will pray?

It's beginning to sound like deep down, we don't have a choice after all.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 4, 2013)

mwilliams80 said:


> I believe his will is determined a lot in what we pray.
> 
> We might not get all we ask for but if we never ask we will never get. There is criteria to receiving prayers from God and can be found in the bible when studying prayer. We are not going to give our children rewards when they are not behaving right. We reward them when they are doing right.



Would you agree with the following statement:

Christians who are obedient to God (trying to live as Christ-like as possible) who pray (having belief and faith) will "sometimes" receive something tangible from God as a result of the prayer, and God does not answer prayers such as this for people who are not Christians.


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## 04ctd (Dec 4, 2013)

Swamp Runner said:


> What denomination, if any, do you belong to?



mostly independent Baptist, at a SBC church now.



HawgJawl said:


> I do not believe He involves Himself in the insignificant details of average people's lives to save them from the trivial natural consequences of their actions, especially when it has nothing to do with furthering God's Kingdom .



HJ...but what if He is? what if God is omnipotent/omniscient enough to BE INVOLVED in our every decision/action?

what if "our God is an AWESOME GOD" is a statement of FACT..and not just a catchy song?

what if you get to Heaven and God says "HJ, you accepted my Son's death on the cross as payment for your sins, enter into Heaven. However, I am displeased with you because you discontinued our day to day fellowship and walks"

Revelation 2:4 
Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love

Genesis 5:24 
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.



HawgJawl said:


> Would you agree with the following statement:
> 
> Christians who are obedient to God (trying to live as Christ-like as possible) who pray (having belief and faith) will "sometimes" receive something tangible from God as a result of the prayer, and God does not answer prayers such as this for people who are not Christians.



Here's is what I know to be A FACT:
I know people who can pray down almost ANYTHING (one lady: dish detergent - because she taught her kids Bible lessons while the dish washer ran. the box of detergent was delivered to her at church)

I also know other folks, who can't even pray a decent prayer out loud over a meal. 
they just buy thier dish detergent at the store 

i think that God answers prayers based on how much TIME (see "walk" above) you spend with Him. 

HJ, ask around, see if you know anyone spends ~3 hours  a day in the Bible, daily studies, praying, and talking to God. Just visiting...then ask them if God answers thier prayers. 

if God talks to you every day...and every day, He hears your voice go from sad to happy, to joyful....then one day, God hears your voice, sobbing and screaming and crying, do you not think He says to some Angel "GIT SUM, go see what is the matter with my son!"

James 5:16 
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent _*prayer of a righteous man availeth much*_

Brother, did God answer _your_ prayers when _you were fervent_ for Him?


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## HawgJawl (Dec 4, 2013)

So, is that a YES or a NO on agreeing with the statement?


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## M80 (Dec 4, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> So, is that a YES or a NO on agreeing with the statement?



Yes and no


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 4, 2013)

04ctd said:


> Here's is what I know to be A FACT:
> I know people who can pray down almost ANYTHING (one lady: dish detergent - because she taught her kids Bible lessons while the dish washer ran. the box of detergent was delivered to her at church)
> 
> I also know other folks, who can't even pray a decent prayer out loud over a meal.
> ...



A couple of things I get confused about. Does God grant more to Christians who have better abilities such as prayer or Bible interpretation? Your example the dish detergent. Others talk about being smart enough to figure the Bible out making it appear God grants more to with abilities.God grant more to Christians who do these things? The reason I'm asking is because of our negative attitude about works. God is no respecter of Man. Saying God grants more to one Christian over another makes his a respecter of man. I'm OK with that as I believe in more than grace. I'm no grace alone believer.


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## M80 (Dec 4, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> A couple of things I get confused about. Does God grant more to Christians who have better abilities such as prayer or Bible interpretation? Your example the dish detergent. Others talk about being smart enough to figure the Bible out making it appear God grants more to with abilities.God grant more to Christians who do these things? The reason I'm asking is because of our negative attitude about works. God is no respecter of Man. Saying God grants more to one Christian over another makes his a respecter of man. I'm OK with that as I believe in more than grace. I'm no grace alone believer.



It's our faith. I once heard of an old preacher man that told everyone Wednesday night we are going to pray for rain cause they was in a drought. Wednesday night an old lady brought her umbrella and the preacher said "was it raining at your house". She said "no, we meet to pray for rain". She came believing and had that child like faith that The Lord was going to bring rain.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 4, 2013)

mwilliams80 said:


> It's our faith. I once heard of an old preacher man that told everyone Wednesday night we are going to pray for rain cause they was in a drought. Wednesday night an old lady brought her umbrella and the preacher said "was it raining at your house". She said "no, we meet to pray for rain". She came believing and had that child like faith that The Lord was going to bring rain.



I guess my belief difference from yours is, I believe the as the old lady. I believe in the power of prayer causing God to bring rain. 
You see it as, God already knew the old lady was going to pray for rain and he knew 10 million years ago, his decision. 
My way makes it a miracle. You way makes it predestination. In your way there was no "Power" just "Obedience." When I pray, I'm asking for a change as the old lady was. She didn't pray for God's will, she prayed for rain. I pray nightly for God to help my daughter get home safely. I really mean it. It's no joke. That is what I want God to do for me, personally. I don't care what his will is or what he has fore seen 10 million year ago. I want action, change, results. He personally told me it was  OK to ask for these things. I'm gonna take him up on his offer.
Amen the the faith of that old lady bringing her umbrella.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 5, 2013)

mwilliams80 said:


> Yes and no



Could you explain?

Do you believe that God grants miraculous answers to prayers from those who worship other gods?


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## gemcgrew (Dec 5, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't care what his will is or what he has fore seen 10 million year ago. I want action, change, results. He personally told me it was  OK to ask for these things. I'm gonna take him up on his offer.
> Amen the the faith of that old lady bringing her umbrella.



Art, after reflection, are you OK with that statement?


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## 04ctd (Dec 5, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> So, is that a YES or a NO on agreeing with the statement?



yes - God answers prayers more/better/faster from people He is used to hearing from.

in Youth Group, we used a lot of analogies, for this we used a Grandpa:
-if you called your Grandpa every day, and told him about your day,and how it went, and what obstacles you were facing, he would be INVOLVED in your life.

-if you have two Grandpas, you usually live near one, and very far from the other one.

-if you have  a Grandpa who is far away, and you do NOT talk to him, don't call him, don't send him letters, he is not involved with your life.

So....when you need something, if you call Grandpa who knows you intimately...he will help you...because he knows you intimately, and he KNOWS what your heart/mind/soul is centered on.

if you call Grandpa who is far away and ask for help..he will hesitate, and prolly will not help you...because he can't be sure what you are going to do with the money (fill in your own word there for whatever you are praying for)




HawgJawl said:


> Could you explain?
> 
> Do you believe that God grants miraculous answers to prayers from those who worship other gods?



no, DUH, if you talk to a stone/gold/wooden calf, who are you intimate with? the calf or God?

our God is a jealous God, and He wants to know us initimately, and for us to know Him intimately


supporting verses:

Genesis 18:21 
I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”

Exodus 16:12 
“I have heard the complaints of the children of Israel. Speak to them, saying, ‘At twilight you shall eat meat, and in the morning you shall be filled with bread. And you shall know that I am the Lord your God.’”

John 10:27 
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.


John 14:7 
[ The Father Revealed ] “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”


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## HawgJawl (Dec 5, 2013)

04ctd said:


> yes - God answers prayers more/better/faster from people He is used to hearing from.
> 
> in Youth Group, we used a lot of analogies, for this we used a Grandpa:
> -if you called your Grandpa every day, and told him about your day,and how it went, and what obstacles you were facing, he would be INVOLVED in your life.
> ...



I agree with everything you said.  And if it is true, we have an observable and measurable way to prove God's existence to the entire world.  I don't mean to simply give people a reason to believe, I mean we can prove it with factual data.


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## M80 (Dec 5, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I guess my belief difference from yours is, I believe the as the old lady. I believe in the power of prayer causing God to bring rain.
> You see it as, God already knew the old lady was going to pray for rain and he knew 10 million years ago, his decision.
> My way makes it a miracle. You way makes it predestination. In your way there was no "Power" just "Obedience." When I pray, I'm asking for a change as the old lady was. She didn't pray for God's will, she prayed for rain. I pray nightly for God to help my daughter get home safely. I really mean it. It's no joke. That is what I want God to do for me, personally. I don't care what his will is or what he has fore seen 10 million year ago. I want action, change, results. He personally told me it was  OK to ask for these things. I'm gonna take him up on his offer.
> Amen the the faith of that old lady bringing her umbrella.



No sir I believe like you. You misunderstood me some how. It is our decision to pray and it is a miracle but God knew what decisions we would make. He didn't make us pray, he watched our lives and because he watched our lives he knew what decision we would make


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## M80 (Dec 5, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Could you explain?
> 
> Do you believe that God grants miraculous answers to prayers from those who worship other gods?



I will. At work. Give me a little time


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## ambush80 (Dec 5, 2013)

mwilliams80 said:


> No sir I believe like you. You misunderstood me some how. It is our decision to pray and it is a miracle but God knew what decisions we would make. He didn't make us pray, he watched our lives and because he watched our lives he knew what decision we would make



Listen to yourself.....


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## M80 (Dec 5, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Listen to yourself.....



I am. With God all things are possible. He could watch our lives play out like watching a movie. We make the choice. You don't think he can see in the future. If we could go in the future and watch some one for a day and follow them around. We could then go back in time and tell someone they will make this decision about something. We didn't force them to make that decision. We saw them make it.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 5, 2013)

Miracles are sometimes granted to Christians as a result of prayer. 

Certain qualifications must exist obviously such as the Christian being obedient to God and having enough belief and faith and obviously some types of prayers may not be granted.  

For the purpose at hand, there is no need to specifically define why, when, or how the prayers are answered.  The only thing that matters is a belief that "some" Christians are "sometimes" granted miracles for "some" types of prayers, and that people who are not Christians are not granted these things.

If we believe this, we can search for measurable issues in the world around us and compare Christians to non-Christians.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 5, 2013)

What are some quality of life issues that are measurable that a good many Christians most likely pray for?

Good health,
Long life,
Quality education,
Strong marriage,
Success (good income)


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 5, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Art, after reflection, are you OK with that statement?



No I'm not, I do care about God's will. I care about it so much, I want to change it. It will still be God's will but a different will from the one he had 10 million years ago. I see examples in the Bible of God doing this. God gave us the power to choose. I do believe you can pray for God to change the outcome of an event. His will is responsive to prayer, otherwise it would have no meaning. 
Jesus knew that God sometimes changes things otherwise he would not have prayed for God to "remove this Cup."  

Or God is in total control, prayer doesn't change anything, God already knows the future so therefore we don't have a choice, and he already knows what we will pray for and what the outcome will be, so prayer can only make us feel better, and not influence the preordained future.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 5, 2013)

mwilliams80 said:


> I am. With God all things are possible. He could watch our lives play out like watching a movie. We make the choice. You don't think he can see in the future. If we could go in the future and watch some one for a day and follow them around. We could then go back in time and tell someone they will make this decision about something. We didn't force them to make that decision. We saw them make it.



That almost seems like predestination. That would mean God already knew who would be his Elect. If God already knew what we would or will do in the future, how is anything our choice? You don't have a choice who you witness to and none of those people have a choice to accept Jesus because if God already knows how it plays out, that's how it's gonna play out. No ands, ifs, or buts.
You can do what ever you want and call it free will but if God knew you would change your mind or accept Jesus or pray for intervention, then he already knew it. 
It's not like a non believer can have a change of heart tomorrow and get saved without God already knowing about it. I don't see that as free will.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 5, 2013)

mwilliams80 said:


> It's our faith. I once heard of an old preacher man that told everyone Wednesday night we are going to pray for rain cause they was in a drought. Wednesday night an old lady brought her umbrella and the preacher said "was it raining at your house". She said "no, we meet to pray for rain". She came believing and had that child like faith that The Lord was going to bring rain.



I just wanted to agree with you on one thing concerning God answering prayers in that you said "It's our faith."

Now you must realize from some of our previous discussions that not everyone believes in the power of prayer or the power of the Holy Spirit. 
All of this ceased with the readable Holy Bible. This explains all of the different denominations, and Biblical interpretations. This explains why miracles or prayer aren't answered.
This is also where Hawgjawl is leading with his question. Why do we who pray for things don't have more than people who don't pray for things? Sickness, poverty, health, wealth appears to have no boundaries between Christians, Hindus, and Atheist.
I don't have an answer other than Cessationism which I don't believe in, maybe you do.


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## M80 (Dec 5, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> That almost seems like predestination. That would mean God already knew who would be his Elect. If God already knew what we would or will do in the future, how is anything our choice? You don't have a choice who you witness to and none of those people have a choice to accept Jesus because if God already knows how it plays out, that's how it's gonna play out. No ands, ifs, or buts.
> You can do what ever you want and call it free will but if God knew you would change your mind or accept Jesus or pray for intervention, then he already knew it.
> It's not like a non believer can have a change of heart tomorrow and get saved without God already knowing about it. I don't see that as free will.



So you don't think God knows everything, even the future. Has it ever occurred to you that nothing has occurred to God


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## M80 (Dec 5, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I just wanted to agree with you on one thing concerning God answering prayers in that you said "It's our faith."
> 
> Now you must realize from some of our previous discussions that not everyone believes in the power of prayer or the power of the Holy Spirit.
> All of this ceased with the readable Holy Bible. This explains all of the different denominations, and Biblical interpretations. This explains why miracles or prayer aren't answered.
> ...



I don't know Cessationism. I will have to look at it. The bible says it rains on the just and the unjust, that he is no respect of person. I don't have an answer why it seems that people who are close to The Lord suffer a lot. I know flowers don't grow on top of mountains where the air is thin. They grow in the valleys. If we where healthy all the time we wouldn't call on The Lord as much as we do. God prepares valleys for us that is for our benefit to trust in The Lord more. We will have problems just like everyone else but I'm glad I have a burden bearer The Lord. 

Art, I want you to now that I believe the same way you do about prayer. Predestination is in the bible and I've studied it a lot. We can not avoid it and I wanted to know more about it. I am not a bible scholar. I am a 33 year old country boy who was called to preach at 19. I don't know everything and no one does. I wished I was a better at teaching but I fail terribly at it. For what I believe it is our free will to pray. I am not Calvinist by no means, but I studied predistination and by what I've tried to explain about god seeing what decision we make is not him forcing us or being his way and there is nothing we can do to change it. He gives us the choice whether we pray about a situation or not. But by him being all knowing he watched our lives and choices and by that he knew whether we would accept him or reject him. Whether we would pray or not. Therefore he can say we have been predestined. I'm just not a good teacher.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 5, 2013)

mwilliams80 said:


> I don't know Cessationism. I will have to look at it. The bible says it rains on the just and the unjust, that he is no respect of person. I don't have an answer why it seems that people who are close to The Lord suffer a lot. I know flowers don't grow on top of mountains where the air is thin. They grow in the valleys. If we where healthy all the time we wouldn't call on The Lord as much as we do. God prepares valleys for us that is for our benefit to trust in The Lord more. We will have problems just like everyone else but I'm glad I have a burden bearer The Lord.
> 
> Art, I want you to now that I believe the same way you do about prayer. Predestination is in the bible and I've studied it a lot. We can not avoid it and I wanted to know more about it. I am not a bible scholar. I am a 33 year old country boy who was called to preach at 19. I don't know everything and no one does. I wished I was a better at teaching but I fail terribly at it. For what I believe it is our free will to pray. I am not Calvinist by no means, but I studied predistination and by what I've tried to explain about god seeing what decision we make is not him forcing us or being his way and there is nothing we can do to change it. He gives us the choice whether we pray about a situation or not. But by him being all knowing he watched our lives and choices and by that he knew whether we would accept him or reject him. Whether we would pray or not. Therefore he can say we have been predestined. I'm just not a good teacher.



I understand and all of us free will believers have a time trying to place our choice in the realm of God's omniscience. Most Free will Christians believe as you do.
I just have trouble believing I have a choice if God knew my choice 10 million years ago. It's my problem and not yours. I too may never understand while living on this Earth. Churches have divided over this topic. The other big thing that has divided Churches and my brain is "Easy Believism" vs "Lordship Salvation."
For some reason my brain always sees both sides of every argument. My brain reads verses for and against both arguments. Some Christians tell me this is impossible. Well tell that to all of the Churches that divided because of their brains.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 5, 2013)

I also agree that we can't avoid predestination. One only needs to read the many, many events that God predestined, Noah & Moses are first to come to mind, even Jesus. 
That makes free will as a belief even harder.


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## ambush80 (Dec 6, 2013)

mwilliams80 said:


> I am. With God all things are possible. He could watch our lives play out like watching a movie. We make the choice. You don't think he can see in the future. If we could go in the future and watch some one for a day and follow them around. We could then go back in time and tell someone they will make this decision about something. We didn't force them to make that decision. We saw them make it.




Does Goldilocks have a choice which bed she will sleep in or which porridge she will eat or will she eat the same one every time?  Is that really a choice?  do you see what I'm saying?


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## ambush80 (Dec 6, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> That almost seems like predestination. That would mean God already knew who would be his Elect. If God already knew what we would or will do in the future, how is anything our choice? You don't have a choice who you witness to and none of those people have a choice to accept Jesus because if God already knows how it plays out, that's how it's gonna play out. No ands, ifs, or buts.
> You can do what ever you want and call it free will but if God knew you would change your mind or accept Jesus or pray for intervention, then he already knew it.
> It's not like a non believer can have a change of heart tomorrow and get saved without God already knowing about it. I don't see that as free will.




Is God ever surprised by anything we do?  If so, how is that possible?


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## HawgJawl (Dec 6, 2013)

mwilliams80 said:


> The bible says it rains on the just and the unjust, that he is no respect of person. I don't have an answer why it seems that people who are close to The Lord suffer a lot. We will have problems just like everyone else but I'm glad I have a burden bearer The Lord.



Even though there is plenty of scripture that I interpret as promising blessings to Christians living "right" while here on earth, for the purpose of this discussion I am approaching this as a level playing field with everyone having good things and bad things happen to them.

On average, everything should be fairly equal until a miracle is applied.  These miracles will then shift the balance in favor of the ones receiving the miracles, which of course will be only Christians.



Artfuldodger said:


> This is also where Hawgjawl is leading with his question. Why do we who pray for things don't have more than people who don't pray for things? Sickness, poverty, health, wealth appears to have no boundaries between Christians, Hindus, and Atheist.



If everyone, no matter what religion they follow, or no religion for that matter, want a successful marriage, and some people pray to their God for assistance in this area, we should see a deviation in the overall average, if in fact prayers are being answered.

Please note:  I am not saying that all Christian marriages should be successful.  I'm not saying that most Christian marriages should be successful.  I am saying that whatever the average success rate for marriage is, for everyone, if prayers are answered regarding Christian marriage, the average should be slightly better for Christians.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 6, 2013)

Christian young adults pray that they will find their soul mate.  When they think they have found that soul mate, they pray about whether they should get married.  They meet with a pastor who prays with them and counsels them on Christian marriage.

During this time period, there is plenty of opportunity for God, knowing the future, to let a few of them know if this is a mistake.

They meet at the altar where the pastor prays and blesses this marriage.  What God has joined together...

When problems arise in the marriage, there are many more prayers for assistance in overcoming those problems.

Again, I am not saying that all or even most Christian marriages should be successful.  I am saying that there are plenty of opportunities for answered prayer to effect the overall average.

In America, of the 9 major religious catagories, Hindus have the lowest overall divorce rate at approximately 5%, which is pretty amazing.

Historically Black Churches, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Evangelical Protestants have the highest divorce rates.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 6, 2013)

Along with divorce, we should consider widows.

It's reasonable to suspect that most religious folks pray to their God for their spouses to continue to live.

If Christian prayers for the lives of their spouses result in any significant amount of answered prayers (miracles), the overall average will be slightly better for Christians.

In America, of the 9 major religious groups, Historically Black Churches, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Evangelical Protestants are the most likely to be widowed.  Hindus, Muslims, Athiests & Agnostics are the least likely to be widowed.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 6, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Is God ever surprised by anything we do?  If so, how is that possible?



I must be possible if I ever have a single choice. I do not completely understand how it is possible. Maybe God wear blinders. Maybe he empties himself of future knowledge as Jesus emptied himself.
Here is one belief:
As one process thinker put it:

"This also means that God is truly omniscient. But from the abstract idea of omniscience, which is not in the Bible, many in the tradition have concluded that God must know everything about the future in just as full detail as God knows the past and present. That theory leads to strange results. It means that when God calls one to act in a particular way, God knows in advance how one will respond. That seems to mean that one’s response is predetermined. This predetermination conflicts with the idea that we have responsibility for our actions.
The Bible certainly depicts God as knowing some things about the future. Often the knowledge is conditional, for example, about what will happen if people do not repent. But sometimes it seems to be unconditional. Certainly, God knows a great deal more about the future than we do. But process and openness theologians agree that it is wrong to draw from this truth the idea that God knows every detail about the future.
On the contrary, God is depicted in the Bible as interacting with free creatures. God acts, creatures respond freely to that act, and God responds to their response. God has the resources to respond to us whatever we do, but God does not know in advance just what we will. God knows everything about the future that is now settled. God knows how God will respond to all sorts of creaturely acts. But God does not know, until we decide, just which of those acts will take place.
This means also that God does not cause or control all of our actions. When we act contrary to God’s will, it is not God who causes us to do that. We are the agents of our own sins. God does not keep all the power. Creatures also exercise power. In that sense, process theologians and openness theologians agree that God does not act omnipotently." 
(From PROCESS AND OPENNESS by Dr. John B. Cobb)

another:
Scripture sometimes depicts God knowing some aspect of the future, but in tension with that often describes God as finding out, discovering, being surprised or disappointed, even regretting. 

Conventional theology tends to say God knows everything in advance. 
Process theology tends to say the future does not exist in advance to be known. 

Like Prof. John Goldingay I'd rather hold the same tension as scripture. Perhaps God chooses not to know everything in advance so that he can have a genuine relationship. 

However, even if he didn't know before hand that Israel couldn't live up to its calling it must surely have become pretty darn obvious very early on.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7682550/


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## HawgJawl (Dec 6, 2013)

The United Nations  -  Human Development Report found that Norway, Iceland, Australia, Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, Belgium, Japan, the Netherlands, Denmark, and the United Kingdom are among the least religious societies on earth, but are also the healthiest as indicated by life expectancy, adult literacy, per capita income, educational attainment, gender equality, homicide rate, and infant mortality.    Conversely, the 50 nations ranking lowest in terms of human development are unwaveringly religious.

These are a few more issues that statistics indicate God does not involve Himself in.  

I am interested to hear more about God changing traffic lights for Christians to help them make up time when they're running late.


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## ambush80 (Dec 6, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I must be possible if I ever have a single choice. I do not completely understand how it is possible. Maybe God wear blinders. Maybe he empties himself of future knowledge as Jesus emptied himself.
> Here is one belief:
> As one process thinker put it:
> 
> ...



Like Superman can fly but he also walks?

It's so weird to watch how you struggle and struggle with things that are clearly wrong with the Bible then you make these mental loopdy loops to try to have it make sense.  I feel for you, man.


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## ambush80 (Dec 6, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Along with divorce, we should consider widows.
> 
> It's reasonable to suspect that most religious folks pray to their God for their spouses to continue to live.
> 
> ...



Maybe because they are most righteous and are given their reward early.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 6, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Like Superman can fly but he also walks?
> 
> It's so weird to watch how you struggle and struggle with things that are clearly wrong with the Bible then you make these mental loopdy loops to try to have it make sense.  I feel for you, man.



I find it fun sometimes. I'm not alone in my justification quest. Besides "Process Theology" we also have, "Open Theology" and a host of others. It might be a better justification than God turning  his novel into a movie.
At least I'm thinking, which is more than some people do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_theology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_theism


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## ambush80 (Dec 6, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I find it fun sometimes. I'm not alone in my justification quest. Besides "Process Theology" we also have, "Open Theology" and a host of others. It might be a better justification than God turning  his novel into a movie.
> At lest I'm thinking, which is more than some people do.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_theology
> ...




Have you ever had anyone tell you "stop thinking so much" or "you can't understand it with your carnal mind" or "lay it at the foot of the cross"?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 6, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Have you ever had anyone tell you "stop thinking so much" or "you can't understand it with your carnal mind" or "lay it at the foot of the cross"?



Myself, but while I do find these discussions interesting and we should learn as much as we can or want to, and getting back to the OP, most of it doesn't affect my salvation or spirituality.
The spiritual side of Christianity is more important than the physical aspects of Christianity.


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## ambush80 (Dec 6, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Have you ever had anyone tell you "stop thinking so much" or "you can't understand it with your carnal mind" or "lay it at the foot of the cross"?



When I asked this I meant it to relate to the OP.  Like Apologetics, the notion of Seminary seems like a contradiction.  The Bible is full of stuff that says that "smarts" is the enemy of faith.


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## Israel (Dec 8, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> When I asked this I meant it to relate to the OP.  Like Apologetics, the notion of Seminary seems like a contradiction.  The Bible is full of stuff that says that "smarts" is the enemy of faith.


I knew a brother once (here's everyone's or anyone's opportunity to get off...consider it fair warning...it's "Once upon a Time", time) that was in a real strait with his wife. I mean serious, "I don't talk to you, I don't respond to you, I don't want you to know anything except  you pretty much repulse me" said the wife, in so many non-words. And the few she did care to exchange she made very plain were simply of necessity to running the household.
This brother was vexed. He was troubled. He was hoping to have a relationship. He tried everything he knew, from sweet entreatments, sweet gifts, sweet sweetness. He sought counsel, he sought counseling, he sought...a whole lot.
In his seeking, he did much reading...or at least he carried many books. They had titles like "What to Do with a Rebellious Wife" or "How to Have a Happy Christian Marriage" or "What to Give Her When Everything is Not Enough". 
OK, I made those titles up, but the gist is surely there. He was going to solve "their problem"...which was essentially...plainly made known...as "hers". He would carry these books home from the library, and one couldn't help but get the impression he wanted her to know (and in truth, anyone else he could convince) he was doing "everything" he could possibly do to help "her"...in "their" situation. 
(Ambush, I am afraid, you may understand this all too well.)
But, I did this with God, too. I read books on prayer, I read books on knowing God, I read books of testimonies, I read books, some seemingly now...of some merit (to me)...others...well...not so much.

I think, now, that in all ways, I was not unlike "that" man, coming home, imagining he was doing everything he could, everything he knew how to do to search out the Lord...and, coming through the door, plopping a book on "our" table (the Lord's and mine) that to him was easily discerned as "How to Make Sure God Does and Is For You, All That You Want Him To Be". (or, perhaps "How To See God Perform Successfully In Every Situation!")
Sure, I loved Jesus (as best I understood "love"...which is now quite laughable...and only leads me to consider when Decemeber 8, 2013 will be laughable, too)
Yes, I believed I was doing all I could to know him "better".
I was at least "hungry". 
I devoured much.
Thankfully,  (I believe) I have come to see God never despises a hungry soul. How, and with what, we seek to fill that hunger, however, he may have many things to show.
He may even, if we be patient (and yes...it is a "gift" not to be scorned), reveal the source of pure hunger, and thirst.

(Said the overweight man as he sat in the warmth of his home in front of a device that will essentially allow him to communicate to the whole of the world, in a moment, his disdain for crazy drivers on his commute, as it will make known his affection for cute dog videos...see...it didn't take long...Dec 8th is already laughable)

So, as to "seminaries", lengthy and profound studies, depths of investigations, ruminations and explorations...they may, for some of us, be absolutely necessary and unavoidable.
But we may learn in all our seeking...we also couldn't help but be found of the One who first seeks us.
And by this seeming "trick" of enlisting our interest in something as simple as "why life?"...we may come to discover...it never had a why to it.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 8, 2013)

Israel said:


> I knew a brother once (here's everyone's or anyone's opportunity to get off...consider it fair warning...it's "Once upon a Time", time) that was in a real strait with his wife. I mean serious, "I don't talk to you, I don't respond to you, I don't want you to know anything except  you pretty much repulse me" said the wife, in so many non-words. And the few she did care to exchange she made very plain were simply of necessity to running the household.
> This brother was vexed. He was troubled. He was hoping to have a relationship. He tried everything he knew, from sweet entreatments, sweet gifts, sweet sweetness. He sought counsel, he sought counseling, he sought...a whole lot.
> In his seeking, he did much reading...or at least he carried many books. They had titles like "What to Do with a Rebellious Wife" or "How to Have a Happy Christian Marriage" or "What to Give Her When Everything is Not Enough".
> OK, I made those titles up, but the gist is surely there. He was going to solve "their problem"...which was essentially...plainly made known...as "hers". He would carry these books home from the library, and one couldn't help but get the impression he wanted her to know (and in truth, anyone else he could convince) he was doing "everything" he could possibly do to help "her"...in "their" situation.
> ...



I like your story and can identify with it. I'm that type of guy. When I take up a new hobby like canoeing or backpacking, I'll read every popular book on the subject. I even read the "Backpacker's bible."
There is a lot of good info. in books and to include their study. 
I do understand in your story how "our problem" relates to "her problem" in that there is way more to a relationship than book learning.

The bad thing about learning is, every teacher, book, or video teaches you a different way to do it. The destination on the trail was always the same, but how to make the journey was always explained differently. You just gotta hit the trail and figure it out all by yourself. Ain't nobody else gonna walk it for you.


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## Israel (Dec 8, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I like your story and can identify with it. I'm that type of guy. When I take up a new hobby like canoeing or backpacking, I'll read every popular book on the subject. I even read the "Backpacker's bible."
> There is a lot of good info. in books and to include their study.
> I do understand in your story how "our problem" relates to "her problem" in that there is way more to a relationship than book learning.
> 
> The bad thing about learning is, every teacher, book, or video teaches you a different way to do it. The destination on the trail was always the same, but how to make the journey was always explained differently. You just gotta hit the trail and figure it out all by yourself. Ain't nobody else gonna walk it for you.



Amen!


It seems the best we can be, hope for, to and with one another is..."yeah, I get it...I'm _with you_ in it..."

I can't tell you how many times I have cried out to the Lord...and heard the words of unutterable comfort..."yeah, I get it"...and it is always so much more than "enough".


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## 04ctd (Dec 8, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'll read every popular book on the subject. I even read the _______
> 
> The bad thing about learning is, every teacher, book, or video teaches you a different way to do it. The destination on the trail was always the same, but how to make the journey was always explained differently. You just gotta hit the trail and figure it out all by yourself. Ain't nobody else gonna walk it for you.



Art, I think we need to visit a bit. To me, it seems you read _too much_, and you don't decide what_ you_ are going to believe/do and then stick with it. sometimes, you will take one stance, post a question, then come back, and question yourself.

YOU need to decide what YOU believe..and you need to say "this is what I believe" and then you need to LIVE that. people need to see the Christian example you live out in front of them.

you continual reading of opposing opinions and taking each one as the gospel and posting them may possibly cause a weaker brother to stumble.

I am not trying to be mean or even fussy...i just don't want anyone to stumble because of your loopy rhetoric, and I would like for you to post that you have Faith, hope, Joy and that you know what you believe

not everything you read is true, right, complete, or even possible:  be it in a printed book on the innerweb, or whatever. You can tell that by the responses to this Post, not many guys believe someone else can teach you more than the Bible and Holy Spirit can.



I apologize in advance if i offend you, but in love, I wanted to mention the above for prayerful consideration.


supporting verses:
1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

James 1:8
A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Romans 14:21
It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

1 Peter 2:8
And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 8, 2013)

Art, the speck in your eye is not visible through this railroad plank in mine.  You encourage me frequently with your writing, and I marvel at your energy. You also display patience with us who lack imagination, zeal, and passion, or worse.  

Jesus is Lord and Savior, that has always been your single-minded testimony that I have received.  

Christ's finished work on the cross...He paid 100 percent of 100 percent of any debt we owed, took every ounce, every atom of our sin on Himself... which is unmerited grace, freely given to us by our One True God.  As He is with us, who can stand against us?  Christ's righteousness in you, Art...walk it out for and with us brother.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 8, 2013)

I believe Jesus is the Son of God who died for our sins, was resurrected by God in a flesh & bones body. I believe Jesus ascended into Heaven in that same body and is sitting at the right hand of his Father today as we speak. I believe he will one day return to the Earth and take the saved back with him to Heaven. I do not believe you will go to Heaven before then. When you do go, you will go in a body of flesh & bones the same as Jesus.
If you don't go to Heaven you will go to He!! which is an actual place of eternal fire.
I have hope and faith that I will go to Heaven. I believe we must make Jesus our Lord and become a disciple. I believe in limited freewill as some things God chooses to do himself. I believe some things are just random. I believe in Satan and his power on Earth. I believe in the power of prayer and praying for God to intervene. I believe in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I believe in soul sleep or souls going somewhere other than Heaven or He!! to await a Judgement. I don't believe baptism is necessary for salvation. I believe we should get baptised in the name of Jesus only and not as an infant.
I believe most of all in Love. We must love others as Jesus loves us. We must forgive others if we want Jesus to forgive us. When we help our fellow man, we are helping Jesus otherwise Jesus will say, I never knew you. I don't believe in OSAS or any of the other points of Calvinsim. I believe the Bible has mistakes and wrong interpretations and therefore did not take the place of the Holy Spirit. I still believe the Bible and feel it is important to read it. I get a little more each time I read it. Sometimes when I read a verse or story it means something different than the time before. I do not believe in Church creeds. I do not believe in Church denominations although I can worship beside most any Christian. Picking who isn't a Christian isn't my call, including JW's, & Mormons.
I believe a major key to becoming more like Jesus is to be more spiritual than physical. 

I do change from time to time and will continue until the day I die. No hard feelings from no one on this forum. While I do enjoy all of the various beliefs that we all have, for the most part I guess we could just read John 3:16 and close down this forum.

My problem is mostly related to free will & predestination/election and with easy believism & lordship salvation.
Depending on what verses and chapter one is quoting, I can see both sides of those beliefs. I do go back and forth on those quite often.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 8, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> Art, the speck in your eye is not visible through this railroad plank in mine.  You encourage me frequently with your writing, and I marvel at your energy. You also display patience with us who lack imagination, zeal, and passion, or worse.
> 
> Jesus is Lord and Savior, that has always been your single-minded testimony that I have received.
> 
> Christ's finished work on the cross...He paid 100 percent of 100 percent of any debt we owed, took every ounce, every atom of our sin on Himself... which is unmerited grace, freely given to us by our One True God.  As He is with us, who can stand against us?  Christ's righteousness in you, Art...walk it out for and with us brother.



Thanks for your kind words and I too have benefited from your testimony.
I can see 04ctd's points too. I can't quite commit to being a part of a club. I was once a Baptist now I'm not. I was once a Democrat now I'm not. I was once a racist now I'm not. I was once full of hate for people who believed different from me on almost every level now I'm not. Not that any and all of my previous selves re enter from time to time. I've still gotta lot of work to do on my journey through the lonesome valley. I appreciate any and all help but in the end, it's my journey.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 8, 2013)

04ctd said:


> Art, I think we need to visit a bit. To me, it seems you read _too much_, and you don't decide what_ you_ are going to believe/do and then stick with it. sometimes, you will take one stance, post a question, then come back, and question yourself.
> 
> YOU need to decide what YOU believe..and you need to say "this is what I believe" and then you need to LIVE that. people need to see the Christian example you live out in front of them.
> 
> ...



No offense taken and you make some valid points. I'm curious as to how you have developed your beliefs over the years? We all say from reading the Bible so it must be more to it than that. 
Look at all of these threads and see all of the different beliefs and tell me why are there so many?
Are you a member of a certain denomination? Do you believe mostly as they do and why? Were you raised in a certain denomination and are still a part of it? Do you believe mostly as your parents and wife? Why do family members develop the same beliefs, religious and political? Will you ever switch political parties?
Have you ever thought about joining the Catholic Church or Mormons?


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## M80 (Dec 8, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I believe Jesus is the Son of God who died for our sins, was resurrected by God in a flesh & bones body. I believe Jesus ascended into Heaven in that same body and is sitting at the right hand of his Father today as we speak. I believe he will one day return to the Earth and take the saved back with him to Heaven. I do not believe you will go to Heaven before then. When you do go, you will go in a body of flesh & bones the same as Jesus.
> If you don't go to Heaven you will go to He!! which is an actual place of eternal fire.
> I have hope and faith that I will go to Heaven. I believe we must make Jesus our Lord and become a disciple. I believe in limited freewill as some things God chooses to do himself. I believe some things are just random. I believe in Satan and his power on Earth. I believe in the power of prayer and praying for God to intervene. I believe in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I believe in soul sleep or souls going somewhere other than Heaven or He!! to await a Judgement. I don't believe baptism is necessary for salvation. I believe we should get baptised in the name of Jesus only and not as an infant.
> I believe most of all in Love. We must love others as Jesus loves us. We must forgive others if we want Jesus to forgive us. When we help our fellow man, we are helping Jesus otherwise Jesus will say, I never knew you. I don't believe in OSAS or any of the other points of Calvinsim. I believe the Bible has mistakes and wrong interpretations and therefore did not take the place of the Holy Spirit. I still believe the Bible and feel it is important to read it. I get a little more each time I read it. Sometimes when I read a verse or story it means something different than the time before. I do not believe in Church creeds. I do not believe in Church denominations although I can worship beside most any Christian. Picking who isn't a Christian isn't my call, including JW's, & Mormons.
> ...



Bro. Art, I'm glad you posted this, me and my fishing partner have talked about you before about we don't know where you stand. I love you my brother and look forward to shaking your hand one day. Although we don't agree on everything I believe by the fruit you bear if I don't meet you here I'll see you in heaven. 

P.S.  I agree with centerpin, you are a pot stirrer sometimes


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 8, 2013)

mwilliams80 said:


> Bro. Art, I'm glad you posted this, me and my fishing partner have talked about you before about we don't know where you stand. I love you my brother and look forward to shaking your hand one day. Although we don't agree on everything I believe by the fruit you bear if I don't meet you here I'll see you in heaven.
> 
> P.S.  I agree with centerpin, you are a pot stirrer sometimes



What happened was a few years back I wondered what it would be like to form my beliefs with as less input from my Baptist Church, parents, wife, etc.
I left the Baptist and became non-denominational. I don't have any hard feelings with the Baptist or any other denominations. My cousin married a Mormon and left his Baptist church for a Holiness Church. He felt like he was just going to a social event instead of Church, not that it was the Churches fault but just his trail to follow Jesus had changed.
I feel that my trail has changed. I've taken off my Baptist goggles and am now experiencing the Bible with a deeper meaning. I can see how other denominations believe what they do. I no longer question it as being wrong.
I mostly struggle with my free will. How come I have choices but people in the Bible didn't, that sort of thing.
I'm OK with the fact that I will never have all of the answers. I will continue to look.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 8, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Thanks for your kind words and I too have benefited from your testimony.
> I can see 04ctd's points too. I can't quite commit to being a part of a club. I was once a Baptist now I'm not. I was once a Democrat now I'm not. I was once a racist now I'm not. I was once full of hate for people who believed different from me on almost every level now I'm not. Not that any and all of my previous selves re enter from time to time. I've still gotta lot of work to do on my journey through the lonesome valley. I appreciate any and all help but in the end, it's my journey.



We were made to walk out life together in Christ. A built in need of Him. Walking out life with other believers can change this aching world!  Christ in you: pass it on.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 8, 2013)

Art, your above 4 comments prove you to be a person who studied and has listened to God's word rather than the multitude who would teach you otherwise.
We all would be better by doing that.
.


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## M80 (Dec 8, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> How come I have choices but people in the Bible didn't, that sort of thing.
> .



They did and we do also. I've already said what I believe on this matter though.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 8, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> We were made to walk out life together in Christ. A built in need of Him. Walking out life with other believers can change this aching world!  Christ in you: pass it on.



I understand what you are saying and have no intentions of turning my back on people for help and guidance as some are suggesting I do. I do value walking with other believers. The lonesome valley I'm talking about walking is, when it's all said and done, it's me and my maker. When we meet, I can't blame my decisions on the Baptist, Democrats, My family members, or my fellow GON brothers. That is the walk I must do all by myself. 
I  get input from  God, the Bible, preachers, teachers, GON members, false prophets, Satan, naysayers, Atheist, & Hindus. I must test the spirits.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 8, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Art, your above 4 comments prove you to be a person who studied and has listened to God's word rather than the multitude who would teach you otherwise.
> We all would be better by doing that.
> .



Amen, and without a preconceived notion of what the lessons are teaching in the Bible. That's easier said than done.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 8, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Amen, and without a preconceived notion of what the lessons are teaching in the Bible. That's easier said than done.



Correct.
.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 9, 2013)

mwilliams80 said:


> P.S.  I agree with centerpin, you are a pot stirrer sometimes



I'm sure I come across as such. I have been accused of that with my weird questions.Maybe it's related to this:

For example, a person who is "left-brained" is often said to be more logical, analytical, and objective, while a person who is "right-brained" is said to be more intuitive, thoughtful, and subjective.

I've always thought centerpin or Gem were bigger pot stirrers than me. Maybe it does take one to know one.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 9, 2013)

I dislike the persecution of the pokey-finger icon.  Look at the poor blue thing's little face. It's pain is plain.  Don't return evil for evil little blue thing.  Pray for that little yellow monster... . May he be saved, or killed. (ha...I'd like to see a thread on that kind of praying... Save him Lord, or kill him! From real experiences to biblical propriety). 

There's a new pot for you Art if you have any interest.


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## Ole Crip (Dec 9, 2013)

Wow just wow!!


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## Ole Crip (Dec 9, 2013)

04ctd said:


> in reading some of you on here, I have realized I needed more knowledge: sound scriptural knowledge about what/how/why the Bible says things.
> 
> I think there are folks on here who are:
> -Bible raised: in church all thier life, know the word
> ...



Are you serious?????? God gives you all you need.... What you get from your read of the bible is what he gives you... Man will twist and corrupt the word.. Much like these guys on here fussing over who is right or wrong. Ridiculous and immature in faith... God leads you everyday open your heart to him he will guide you. I have often wondered why so many people criticize the Christian well this whole forum speaks for itself.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 9, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> I dislike the persecution of the pokey-finger icon.  Look at the poor blue thing's little face. It's pain is plain.  Don't return evil for evil little blue thing.  Pray for that little yellow monster... . May he be saved, or killed. (ha...I'd like to see a thread on that kind of praying... Save him Lord, or kill him! From real experiences to biblical propriety).
> 
> There's a new pot for you Art if you have any interest.



I've always identified myself more with the little blue thing, never been very assertive. I was taught to be more meek and humble. Good traits but I would like to move more to being like the yellow thing. At least somewhere in between or as far as Christianity will allow.
I can't address your request as my spoon is down to a stick.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 9, 2013)

Ole Crip said:


> Are you serious?????? God gives you all you need.... What you get from your read of the bible is what he gives you... Man will twist and corrupt the word.. Much like these guys on here fussing over who is right or wrong. Ridiculous and immature in faith... God leads you everyday open your heart to him he will guide you. I have often wondered why so many people criticize the Christian well this whole forum speaks for itself.



For the benefit of everyone on this forum, would you please be considerate enough to explain the "correct" understanding of predestination as God has guided you, so that we can finally all be in agreement?


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## 04ctd (Dec 9, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> -I believe Jesus is the Son of God who died for our sins, was resurrected by God in a flesh & bones body.
> 
> -I believe Jesus ascended into Heaven in that same body and is sitting at the right hand of his Father today as we speak.
> 
> ...



woo hoo!! somebody cut a tree down,put this man on the stump, and hand him a ole black-back 1611 KJV Bible!!

that's the most awesome post I think I have every seen.
I have been praying all night that I did not offend you.
all my fretting & praying was worth it, for you to come on here & proclaim the Gospel like that!

if every preacher would read half your list from the Pulpit once a month, we could change the world!



Ronnie T said:


> Art, your above 4 comments prove you to be a person who studied and has listened to God's word rather than the multitude who would teach you otherwise.
> We all would be better by doing that.
> .



agreed, really do agree.  study, listen, pray, read the Bible...we would all be better.



Ole Crip said:


> Wow just wow!!



agree..wow



Ole Crip said:


> Are you serious?????? God gives you all you need.... What you get from your read of the bible is what he gives you... Man will twist and corrupt the word.. Much like these guys on here fussing over who is right or wrong. Ridiculous and immature in faith... God leads you everyday open your heart to him he will guide you. I have often wondered why so many people criticize the Christian well this whole forum speaks for itself.



That has been the position of many people I have asked, check the Poll, it also agrees with you.

FWIW, I don't think we are fussing...so much as we are working out ideas, points, counterpoints.  the key point to this forum is you can read an opinion, pray on it overnight, study it all day, THEN post a response.

if you are an avid reader of this section, you may notice most discussions ends with "let's agree to dis-agree, I still love you brother"

with that said,  let me say "I love you brother"

1 Peter 4:8 
And above all things have fervent love for one another, for “love will cover a multitude of sins.”


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## BT Charlie (Dec 9, 2013)

Ole Crip said:


> Are you serious?????? God gives you all you need.... What you get from your read of the bible is what he gives you... Man will twist and corrupt the word.. Much like these guys on here fussing over who is right or wrong. Ridiculous and immature in faith... God leads you everyday open your heart to him he will guide you. I have often wondered why so many people criticize the Christian well this whole forum speaks for itself.




Thank you for reminding me that salvation is through God's unmerited grace.  

As to the highlighted text:

Are there any known occasions where news media has reported a single human being disliking Christians based on what has been said on this little open GON forum on spiritual discussion?

I've never heard that, not even from my fishing buddies, who are no slouches in the think tank.  

Christ wasn't very politically correct in His time, and didn't much care what the know-it-alls had to say about Him, if I read the book correctly. 

No one since Christ has been perfect.  Does He not use us imperfect folk for His purpose, in His perfect time, despite our imperfections -- like being ridiculous, immature, having planks in our eyes yet claiming the uncanny super power of x-ray vision enabling them to see through all the wood and spot specks in our brothers' eyes?  I plead guilty to being ridiculous and immature.  But, my testimony is simple: Christ is Lord and Savior. 

From time to time, I've invited other GON members to come here and join discussions. They decline, because of perceived hypocrisy they sense here.  They say, "Ain't nothing but hypocrites on that forum." 

I always hug them and say, "Don't worry about that; we always got room for one more!"


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## centerpin fan (Dec 9, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> They decline, because of perceived hypocrisy they sense here.  They say, "Ain't nothing but hypocrites on that forum."



Interesting comment, but I doubt that's the real reason.


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## Israel (Dec 9, 2013)

Ole Crip said:


> Are you serious?????? God gives you all you need.... What you get from your read of the bible is what he gives you... Man will twist and corrupt the word.. Much like these guys on here fussing over who is right or wrong. Ridiculous and immature in faith... God leads you everyday open your heart to him he will guide you. I have often wondered why so many people criticize the Christian well this whole forum speaks for itself.


If you're right, then you too, have been "guided" here.
May you be as blessed as I have been so often, to find out I needed things I didn't even know I lacked.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 9, 2013)

04ctd said:


> I have been trying to find a seminary/bible college to enroll in locally (Charleston SC) but they seem to have gone out of style
> 
> what do you guys think, does more education make you more better?



   You could drive up to the Mepkin Abbey Trappist Monastery and take a sabbatical under their monastic guest program. Located in town of Moncks Corner   "Capital of Santee Cooper Country."  


http://mepkinabbey.org/wordpress/

http://mepkinabbey.org/wordpress/monastic-guest-program/


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 9, 2013)

04ctd said:


> that's the really the point of this post/poll/troll, to see if education would help me see past the semantics/literal meaning to have a broader understanding, esp in reference to how F1 linked OT events to NT revelation.
> 
> an unlearned man misses a lot of the OT/NT connections.



We briefly discussed the OT/NT connection on "The Magi" thread. I would think we could all benefit from learning more about the Old Testament. I would also like to lern more about the "end times." I haven't ventured to far in that direction.
Also related to your semantics/literal understanding is if we look at God and the Bible as objective or subjective. 
Since faith is a big part of our belief we mostly look at things as subjective.


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## Ole Crip (Dec 9, 2013)

Sorry guys I did not mean to sound so harsh. God has been working on me daily. I have been struggling with something God wants me to do. It's been in my heart as to how we can touch as many lives as possible through Christ. People today have such a horrible outlook on Christians and the Church. He has been helping me understand why and so far I have come to this conclusion Christians cannot agree with one another on much of anything...... Therefore why would anyone take a Christian serious? In my text earlier I plainly stated God will direct you. You as an individual when you read the good word he will give you what you need as long as you have faith. Say for instance some one ask me if I am a Christian. I say no I just threw them a curve ball by saying no I am not a Christian. I do attend a Church and yes I love my Church family.


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## Ole Crip (Dec 9, 2013)

We as Christ follower's need to stop arguing over the bible words and content. If you read the bible and you get what you get well my friends that is what God gave you. The more you read and have faith the more you grow.... It's time we stop arguing over what the bible says to one another and just accept it. When we do this there is no stopping us and the lives we can reach through Christ. Satan has this world in his grasp it is time for us to stand together as brothers and reach as many lives as possible as one Church under God... God has put it on my heart to contact every single Church building here in Walton county. To come together as ONE for one day to do an outreach of some kind. We can save thousands of lives. No one Church but many as ONE.


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## 04ctd (Dec 9, 2013)

Ole Crip said:


> God has put it on my heart to contact every single Church building here in Walton county. To come together as ONE for one day to do an outreach of some kind. We can save thousands of lives. No one Church but many as ONE.



there was an article on that in the last SBC magazine, I will see if I can find it.

IRT you above post, it's tough when God is knocking the hard edges off of us...


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## Ole Crip (Dec 9, 2013)

04ctd said:


> there was an article on that in the last SBC magazine, I will see if I can find it.
> 
> IRT you above post, it's tough when God is knocking the hard edges off of us...



Please do!! I am waiting for God's direction in what to do now..


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## BT Charlie (Dec 9, 2013)

Ole Crip said:


> We as Christ follower's need to stop arguing over the bible words and content. If you read the bible and you get what you get well my friends that is what God gave you. The more you read and have faith the more you grow.... It's time we stop arguing over what the bible says to one another and just accept it. When we do this there is no stopping us and the lives we can reach through Christ. Satan has this world in his grasp it is time for us to stand together as brothers and reach as many lives as possible as one Church under God... God has put it on my heart to contact every single Church building here in Walton county. To come together as ONE for one day to do an outreach of some kind. We can save thousands of lives. No one Church but many as ONE.



That is awesome, OC.   I am guilty of the disunity, and worse.

Doubt impaired my witness yesterday.  It was noticeable to me, beyond all the 
other barnacles that usually impair my witness.  I've never doubted Christ could use an imperfect lunk like me for His purpose, until yesterday, when an emergency arose in our church.

The source of doubt was the enemy.  The seeds sown in discussions here.  All my bad...not a knock on this forum, discussion or anyone here.  Worse, it was noticeable in that the 40-something year old father of four who wanted to take his own life was not responding to prayer and intercession.  

Crushed by doubt:  was "I" trying to be Christ's little helper?  The Maker of Men does not need me.  It diminishes His greatness and wrongfully elevates my status into self glorification to think I can help God achieve His will here.  Also, 
as this soul was simply not responding...was it a goat, a hardened heart, a 
depraved, lost soul, forever?  As I prayed, I was weak and confused.  (Or weaker and more confused than usual, let's say.) Usually, I am frequently in error, but never in doubt.  Here, I was just out of sorts. I had this sense it was wrong to doubt how and why I was put in this place at this time, but I couldn't shake the doubt.

This fellow did not respond, and his mood just sank worse.  He had sought a relationship with Christ 50 days earlier, had repented and proclaimed Jesus Christ as his Lird and Savior.  Yet here he was, in such despair.

Another brother joined me -- we called in the big guns, including a pal on this forum -- and this brother immediately and boldly proclaimed the Word of God, boldly staked out Christ's victory for this man, and within 30 minutes it was like I was looking at a new person.  The deoressed man renounced the spirits of his despair, all that pierced him, and he proclaimed life over his death.  He walked out with his hesd high and a smike on his face.  That is what God can do through those who follow Him, who dare to change the world in His name. All glory to Christ!

What a lesson: I will never again trade 1 atom of Christ's power and potential for anyone's doctrine. (I hope ...)  Argue for limitations, and they sure enough will be yours.  All things are possible in Christ.  Stick to your guns on this, Crip.


So...Love one another relentlessly.  Renounce doubt wherever it appears. Push into Christ....He will use you to make a difference among His children, here and now. This is a hurting world crying out for people with a heart to help, in Christ.

There are four kids tonight who still have a dad on earth, thanks to Christ's love 
for us. Of that, I have no doubt. Best to you, Crip.  Keep us posted on God's work 
through you.  Be encouraged!


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## 04ctd (Dec 9, 2013)

Ole Crip said:


> Please do!! I am waiting for God's direction in what to do now..



article is "bettertogether" by Ralph Carter.

you MAYBE able to navigate to it here, click BACK ISSUE at the top, select November 2013
http://digital.olivesoftware.com/Olive/ODE/SCBC/

this should be the direct link
http://digital.olivesoftware.com/Ol...px?href=SCB/2013/11/01&pageno=5&view=document

this is a GOOD read for anyone in leadership in a church.


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## hummerpoo (Dec 9, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> That is awesome, OC.   I am guilty of the disunity, and worse.
> 
> 
> Doubt impaired my witness yesterday.  It was noticeable to me, beyond all the
> ...



Paul is a great teacher in this regard ... he always assumed the best and highest of and for everyone ... except when the brethern were being led astray.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 9, 2013)

Amen.  The enemy prowls, HP.  I didn't have a full body tremble going, but a spirit of weakness, confusion ransacked me. We got him exposed, in the open now!


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## Israel (Dec 10, 2013)

Lessons learned are not learned the way we'd have thought, preferred, or even liked.
In the world we endure much schooling for a lofty goal...in our own minds. We are willing to "put in the time".
The Lord's "lofty goal" is a bit higher for us...something we sense, but remains unclear as to precisely what it "looks like".
Ours is often not a problem of "knowing" what the lesson plan is...but what the teacher looks like.
It's a bit less costly, and therefore less valuable, to simply say our goal is Christ, as true as that is.
It's quite another to enter school as he did.
In crying out with loud cries and tears, "Lord, why have I been made so terribly weak!?"...we may hear "I get it, believe me, I get it"


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## BT Charlie (Dec 10, 2013)

Amen.  If I could figure out such thing, my signature would be "trade not 1 atom of Christ's power for doctrine." Or some such. Beware seminary folk!


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## hummerpoo (Dec 10, 2013)

BT, your experience freshened one of mine, when I was asked a question about divorce and easily replied without prior consideration.  To this day I don't know the extent of the consequences, but they were minimized by another.  Prior to that I was always a little foggy on Romans 14, but that experience made clear the admonishment that both positions are to defer to the other with the greater responsibility falling with the greater blessing.  Praise God, we will never fall in the ditch because we are following our Teacher ... only when we miss a step.


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## Ole Crip (Dec 10, 2013)

04ctd said:


> article is "bettertogether" by Ralph Carter.
> 
> you MAYBE able to navigate to it here, click BACK ISSUE at the top, select November 2013
> http://digital.olivesoftware.com/Olive/ODE/SCBC/
> ...



That's just it "southern Baptist convention" Why not Gods????? The name came to me the other day.. The warriors walk.. It's going to be a battle for soul's. Funny thing my pastor at our church building preached on Baby Jesus and is this how we see him? He said how do you pic Jesus? He went straight from baby Jesus to revelation's and talked at how Jesus was this mighty warrior with his band of Angels. I knew then he was talking to me through my pastor.


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## Ole Crip (Dec 10, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> That is awesome, OC.   I am guilty of the disunity, and worse.
> 
> Doubt impaired my witness yesterday.  It was noticeable to me, beyond all the
> other barnacles that usually impair my witness.  I've never doubted Christ could use an imperfect lunk like me for His purpose, until yesterday, when an emergency arose in our church.
> ...



I gave up on God a couple of years ago. I was so angry at him all I could say is why me Lord why.. I was hurt years ago I was told by my doctors I would never work my job again. I was devastated this is all I know 18 years down the tube why? I had surgery after surgery and I found myself suffering in depression I wanted to die. I had a wife 4 beautiful kids and a great home. I no longer have a beautiful house a wife and I see my kids every Wednesday and ever other weekend. I hated my life and everything about it and I mean everything.. It's just been here recently God opened my eyes as to what happened to me. I loved my job more than my family. I loved myself more than my wife my wants were more important than anyone else's. Well my friends he slowed me down he broke me and he had me wanting. I finally called to him and he answered my life evolves daily for him. I am his warrior I have been beaten I have been bruised I have hurt all because he needed me.. I needed to change. Anyways what I am getting-  -at we loose ourselves from time to time but remember he is always there to dust us off and makes us stronger better people.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 10, 2013)

Awesome testimony, Crip.  You have inspired and encouraged me with your life-speaking this morning.  Praise God and bless you!  

"Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Come near God and he will come near you." James 4:7-8.

"They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death." Revelation 12:11.


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## StriperAddict (Dec 10, 2013)

Israel said:


> Lessons learned are not learned the way we'd have thought, preferred, or even liked.
> In the world we endure much schooling for a lofty goal...in our own minds. We are willing to "put in the time".
> The Lord's "lofty goal" is a bit higher for us...something we sense, but remains unclear as to precisely what it "looks like".
> Ours is often not a problem of "knowing" what the lesson plan is...but what the teacher looks like.
> ...


 
I like the above, brother!
... as having to do with the wonder of abiding, and seeking Him no matter what the evangelical calling. In that "school" (please add on hard knocks also) and I think one could be quite ready to stand as the Lord's witness, no doubt.

But I'll add that, when we see our giftings and the call of the Lord on our lives,  (pastor, evangelist, teacher, preacher, etc)
it is well worth all the education possible to attain understanding...
but I cannot overemphasize the absolute need to be found near and by the Master's side daily and frequently, and that much more important than any seminary lecture.


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## hummerpoo (Jan 21, 2014)

04ctd said:


> in reading some of you on here, I have realized I needed more knowledge: sound scriptural knowledge about what/how/why the Bible says things.
> 
> I think there are folks on here who are:
> -Bible raised: in church all thier life, know the word
> ...



"do not turn from it to the right or to the left"

Those words from Joshua 1:7 ring in my ears in any number of situations (it's much easier to just veer off in the proper direction than to make a precise adjustment).  So, when I heard the reference scripture for this sermon this morning my attention was focused.  Jeremiah's take on the passage is very close to mine, but it was just getting started when I was reminded of your questions; you will hear the sentence.  Hope God has something in it for you.

http://www.davidjeremiah.org/site/radio_player.aspx?id=1270


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## M80 (Jan 21, 2014)

Done some studying in Amos. He was just a shepherd boy following his flock when The Lord called him to preach to Israel to repent. That's what he told the priest. I like Amos.


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## 04ctd (Jan 22, 2014)

hummerpoo said:


> Jeremiah's take on the passage is very close to mine, but it was just getting started when I was reminded of your questions; you will hear the sentence.  Hope God has something in it for you.
> 
> http://www.davidjeremiah.org/site/radio_player.aspx?id=1270



awesome find!!

that sermon covers most of the messed up theology on GON lately!

04:10 is "do what God wants you to do" do not be in doubt..
05:38 our response to Gods word is....
07:20 is for Art....
07:59 talks about Men of God with no formal training..."personal Bible study"


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 22, 2014)

04ctd said:


> awesome find!!
> 
> that sermon covers most of the messed up theology on GON lately!
> 
> ...



While I do want to "observe to do" and I can see where we might read the Bible to learn how not to live, isn't that part of learning how to live? All the preacher did was just say it in a different manner. He said "read it to understand it, to put it into practice." vs "read the Bible to discover what it says so that they decide whether or not they want to do it."
His way does sound more eloquent and polished. I don't believe God is going to hold back my understanding  until I practice certain aspects of what I've learned. I believe God will give us more meat as we become more spiritual and less fleshy as we learn the Gospel. 
His preaching  is too legal and geared more towards a "fundamentalist" theology than salvation by grace and sins being washed.  
He himself appears to preach more on what we shouldn't do than what we should do. I already know and have learned enough and have lived  enough about  what not to do.(sin)
Now I want to learn more about what to do.(love, help, forgive)


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 23, 2014)

04ctd said:


> awesome find!!
> 
> that sermon covers most of the messed up theology on GON lately!
> 
> ...



I'm interested in how much understanding of the Bible I get from God vs how much I understand from myself. The way Dr. Jeremiah explains it, I'll only receive an allotment of understanding as I do what part of the knowledge I've put to use. 
As he explains it, You and him have received more Bible knowledge because y'all live a better Christian life than me. As I live a better Christian life, God will give me my next Biblical understanding allotment. I've just never heard it explained quite like that. The more we read and do, the more God will reveal. To those who have, God gives more. To those who don't have, he gives less.
My Biblical knowledge is based on my Works.


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## 04ctd (Jan 23, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> , I'll only recieve an allotment of understanding as I do what part of the knowledge I've put to use.
> 
> My Biblical knowledge is based on my Works.



as I see it, DJ is saying "as you grow, you learn more, and as you learn more, God lets you unfold more...and transition from milk to to meat, from first order doctrines to third order doctrines"

you saying your works leads to growth is basically saying the same thing...as you live out the little bit of Gospel you know...more is bestowed on you...because you have gained knowledge..and displayed understanding.

think of an apple tree...you can't hang 100 apples off a baby tree.  you need a full grown tree to hang full grown fruit on.

John 15:5 
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.




Luke 24 
32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,


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## Ronnie T (Jan 23, 2014)

Too much input from too many sources Art.

The Bible puts it very simply.  The Bible always puts it very simply.

"Study to show thyself approved."

You don't need mine, or anyone else's theology....... Study God, Study Jesus, Study God's holy Word.

And 'what's from God versus what's from you'?  Don't be concerned with that.  Just stay in harmony with God's word and you will need to give God all the credit.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 23, 2014)

It's slowly sinking in. Maybe I do experience input overload.


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