# Instead of proving God.......



## CAL (Jun 14, 2011)

exist.Try proving God doesn't exist!I know God exist without a doubt.Now,prove to me He doesn't!


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## vowell462 (Jun 14, 2011)

Thats impossible. Just like it is impossible for you to prove that he does exist. Even though you claim to " know". The truth is we dont know, at all. We can all argue, and theorize, but we dont know. Which is why this is such an interesting subject.


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## pnome (Jun 14, 2011)




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## dawg2 (Jun 14, 2011)

Unless you had your "Moment," the proof is left on faith.  It is impossible to disprove God's existence.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 15, 2011)

I agree that it would be much harder to prove that he doesn't than it would be for him to prove that he does. No matter what kind of evidence against the bible is found, people will still have faith. And all he'd have to do is snap his fingers the right way and there could be proof.


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## CAL (Jun 15, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> Thats impossible. Just like it is impossible for you to prove that he does exist. Even though you claim to " know". The truth is we dont know, at all. We can all argue, and theorize, but we dont know. Which is why this is such an interesting subject.



No Sir,you don't know that God exist.You don't have a personal relationship with our Lord.So,how could you know that God exist.By the same reason and perspective you think He does not exist.If you or any other nonbeliever would allow God to come into their lives you would see without a doubt that God does exist and is alive.My only reason for trying to convince people the greatness of God and the power that is there is to keep them from the inevitable  which a non believer is destined too.This is my only reason for posting here,non other!


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 15, 2011)

I thought I used to have one. I am sure you disagree with this, but I thought/knew I he was real just like you do now. And now I know, and so does vowell. Vowell is very clear though that he can't prove it. Neither can I. 

And as I said, even if we get more and more evidence that he does not exist, a lot of believers won't care and will cling to their faith. Just as pnome's video says, we can't prove the negative. Even if we one day come very close (as close as is possible with theory and evidence) to describing exactly how we evolved, that matter and energy have just always existed... there's still no way to prove the negative. And because of that, no matter how much evidence is there, some people will still cling to non-logical faith, just as many people do today.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 15, 2011)

Romans 1:20-25 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 
Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. 
 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.


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## CAL (Jun 15, 2011)

Where ya'll at ?All you nonbelievers were quick to answer that no one can prove that God exist.Not getting much post about proving God does not exist.


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## dawg2 (Jun 15, 2011)

CAL said:


> Where ya'll at ?All you nonbelievers were quick to answer that no one can prove that God exist.Not getting much post about proving God does not exist.



Maybe it's a one way street


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## vowell462 (Jun 15, 2011)

CAL said:


> No Sir,you don't know that God exist.You don't have a personal relationship with our Lord.So,how could you know that God exist.By the same reason and perspective you think He does not exist.If you or any other nonbeliever would allow God to come into their lives you would see without a doubt that God does exist and is alive.My only reason for trying to convince people the greatness of God and the power that is there is to keep them from the inevitable  which a non believer is destined too.This is my only reason for posting here,non other!



There was many years that I thought I had a " personal relationship" as well. Then I woke up. I dont have a personal relationship with a god(s) and I find it difficult to believe that you do. Again, nobody can prove that a god exist or doesnt exist, it cant be done. Niether argument can be proven. I think its kinda crazy when someone says they have a "personal relationship" with god. What does that mean? Do you go fishing with him or something? Do you grill out with him on the weekends? My belief on that note, is that its all in your head.

I also find it funny how you address us as " nonbelievers", as if thats a bad thing. Truth is, some just dont believe the same illogical story without proof that you do. Some of us may have beliefs, or thoughts, or theories, but my guess is you wouldnt be open to learning or knowing any of them because it may make you think a little different than that of what you were comfortably indoctrinated to.

Again, your question is un answerable on both ends. Which is probably why you arent getting a whole bunch of response.


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## stringmusic (Jun 16, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> There was many years that *I thought *I had a " personal relationship" as well. Then I woke up. I dont have a personal relationship with a god(s) and I find it difficult to believe that you do. Again, nobody can prove that a god exist or doesnt exist, it cant be done. Niether argument can be proven. I think its kinda crazy when someone says they have a "personal relationship" with god. What does that mean? Do you go fishing with him or something? Do you grill out with him on the weekends? My belief on that note, is that its all in your head.



..... and there was/is the problem.


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## vowell462 (Jun 16, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> ..... and there was/is the problem.



Thats not a problem. Some may think they have a personal relationship with god, but I dont believe they do. That doesnt even make sense. Trust me, I believed I did, and you could not tell me otherwise, but now I realize it was all from being brainwashed, just like most are.


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## Capt Quirk (Jun 16, 2011)

CAL said:


> exist.Try proving God doesn't exist!I know God exist without a doubt.Now,prove to me He doesn't!



Right after you prove he is, or isn't, any more real than Zeus, Apollo, Allah, the Easter Bunny, or Santa.


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## TheBishop (Jun 16, 2011)

I'm in touch with the dead, they tell me the afterlife is one big party without the hangovers.  They told me there is no god.  I know I have a relationship with the dead.  I know there is no way you can have that relationship, so you'll never know. They talk to me and me only in my head and only I can hear them.  I know there is no god becuase the voices in my head told me so.


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## stringmusic (Jun 16, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> Thats not a problem. Some may think they have a personal relationship with god, but I dont believe they do.


Thats fine, just know your belief has no bearing on whether someone does or does not have that relationship.
I could choose to believe that you don't have a relationship with your wife, that doesnt make it true.



> Trust me, I believed I did, and you could not tell me otherwise, but now I realize it was all from being brainwashed, just like most are.


How did you come to that realization? Did you just one day decide thats what you want to believe? 

Why would someone want to brainwash me? or you?


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## stringmusic (Jun 16, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> I'm in touch with the dead, they tell me the afterlife is one big party without the hangovers.


Thats going to suck.



> They told me there is no god. * I know I have a relationship with the dead.*  I know there is no way you can have that relationship, so you'll never know. They talk to me and me only in my head and only I can hear them.  I know there is no god becuase the voices in my head told me so.



I hope that gets you to where you want to go and truly gives you purpose,meaning,justification and a sense of morality.


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## CAL (Jun 16, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> There was many years that I thought I had a " personal relationship" as well. Then I woke up. I dont have a personal relationship with a god(s) and I find it difficult to believe that you do. Again, nobody can prove that a god exist or doesnt exist, it cant be done. Niether argument can be proven. I think its kinda crazy when someone says they have a "personal relationship" with god. What does that mean? Do you go fishing with him or something? Do you grill out with him on the weekends? My belief on that note, is that its all in your head.
> 
> I also find it funny how you address us as " nonbelievers", as if thats a bad thing. Truth is, some just dont believe the same illogical story without proof that you do. Some of us may have beliefs, or thoughts, or theories, but my guess is you wouldnt be open to learning or knowing any of them because it may make you think a little different than that of what you were comfortably indoctrinated to.
> 
> Again, your question is un answerable on both ends. Which is probably why you arent getting a whole bunch of response.



Wrong again Sir!I wish I could get you to see and experience what I have seen and experienced.I guess i am not talented enough in explaining things to get you and other nonbelievers to see how really real God is and has been all the time even in your life.I really think you would like to see what I am speaking about in reality if you just could.Maybe in time you will come to see the things and have the faith to believe in God and the Holy Spirit.As far as open to other beliefs,NO I am not and will never be.I need nothing else.When one has the very best there is no need to look further,believe me.I think you will agree with that last statement at least.

Since no one can prove God doesn't exist,have you ever wondered just a little bit that He just might exist.There just might be a faint possibility that God influenced something that happened in your life?That there just might be a tiny possibility that God does exist and according to His word if you don't believe what your inevitable end result will be just might possibly be true?


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## Dr. Strangelove (Jun 16, 2011)

CAL said:


> Wrong again Sir!I wish I could get you to see and experience what I have seen and experienced.I guess i am not talented enough in explaining things to get you and other nonbelievers to see how really real God is and has been all the time even in your life.I really think you would like to see what I am speaking about in reality if you just could.Maybe in time you will come to see the things and have the faith to believe in God and the Holy Spirit.As far as open to other beliefs,NO I am not and will never be.I need nothing else.When one has the very best there is no need to look further,believe me.I think you will agree with that last statement at least.
> 
> Since no one can prove God doesn't exist,have you ever wondered just a little bit that He just might exist.There just might be a faint possibility that God influenced something that happened in your life?That there just might be a tiny possibility that God does exist and according to His word if you don't believe what your inevitable end result will be just might possibly be true?



Annnd, here's the reason for not so many responses.  You may as well argue with a cat as with someone who blindly believes something based on faith and has stated that their way of believing is the only way. That, and; there is no way to prove or disprove the existence of god.


Enjoy your beliefs, but understand that everyone elses' viewpoints are just and valid as yours, as long as you respect mine, I'll respect yours...


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## TheBishop (Jun 16, 2011)

> Thats going to suck.



Not for me, I like a good thorw down.




> I hope that gets you to where you want to go and truly gives you purpose,meaning,justification and a sense of morality.



I don't need any religion to find purpose, meaning, justification or morality.  I think it is quite lame to think you need someone else to define those things for you, when they are readily apparent to anyone with the ability to reason.


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## stringmusic (Jun 16, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> Not for me, I like a good thorw down.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So purpose,meaning etc are subjective?


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## TheBishop (Jun 16, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> So purpose,meaning etc are subjective?



Absolutely.


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## stringmusic (Jun 16, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> Absolutely.



Do you think the Holocaust was wrong?

I am going to assume you to say yes. Are you not giving those lives lost in the Holocaust purpose and meaning? Is it only because you want them to have meaning?

What if I decided the Holocaust was not wrong and completely right, with your subjective values, could you really fault me making that decision?


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## ambush80 (Jun 16, 2011)

CAL said:


> Wrong again Sir!I wish I could get you to see and experience what I have seen and experienced.I guess i am not talented enough in explaining things to get you and other nonbelievers to see how really real God is and has been all the time even in your life.I really think you would like to see what I am speaking about in reality if you just could.Maybe in time you will come to see the things and have the faith to believe in God and the Holy Spirit.As far as open to other beliefs,NO I am not and will never be.I need nothing else.When one has the very best there is no need to look further,believe me.I think you will agree with that last statement at least.
> 
> Since no one can prove God doesn't exist,have you ever wondered just a little bit that He just might exist.There just might be a faint possibility that God influenced something that happened in your life?That there just might be a tiny possibility that God does exist and according to His word if you don't believe what your inevitable end result will be just might possibly be true?



I prefer to believe that no being had influence in the things that happened in my life.  To think that someone was actually designing some of the things that happened in my life would make me feel like a lab rat; like someone was playing games with me.



stringmusic said:


> Do you think the Holocaust was wrong?
> 
> I am going to assume you to say yes. Are you not giving those lives lost in the Holocaust purpose and meaning? Is it only because you want them to have meaning?
> 
> What if I decided the Holocaust was not wrong and completely right, with your subjective values, could you really fault me making that decision?



And you prefer to believe that their deaths were some sort of clandestine but wonderful plan concocted by God?  Or perhaps it was the workings of his lap dog Satan, who He has allowed to run amok for some strange and illogical but blessed reason?

What if it was right and righteous in God's mind but we couldn't possibly understand the beauty of his plan.  What if He uses me to blow up a building as part of his plan in order to bring the suffering victims' families to Christ?


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## stringmusic (Jun 16, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> > And you prefer to believe that their deaths were some sort of clandestine but wonderful plan concocted by God?
> 
> 
> Nope, I think it was human beings making decisions with their subjective values.
> ...


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## ambush80 (Jun 16, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Nope, I think it was human beings making decisions with their subjective values.



So He sat idly by and watched children play with an upside down, running lawnmower?  Surely one can only assume that He had some kind of wondrous plan or lesson that that should be taken from the Holocaust.  Maybe we are just to dumb to see it.  And if you believe that, your morality is subject to serious criticism. 



stringmusic said:


> I wouldnt call Satan His "lap dog", either way, Satan chose his position, just like we get a choice.



He could chain him to a tire or a couple of cinder blocks to slow him down.  No, I think that if He exists, He lets Satan do all the ankle biting for Him; the epitome of a lapdog.




stringmusic said:


> I dont think so.
> 
> So, now, how about an answer from you? You didnt answer the questions (Which I can understand, because I asked Bishop) Its clear you do not get your answers from the Bible or the Holy Spirit, where do you get your answers? Its easy to smell the bad roses and not give a good one.



I think the Holocaust was bad, unfriendly, un-epathetic, naughty, evil, ill conceived and plain wrong.  Where did I learn to make these judgements?   First, my Momma and Papa taught me.  Then I was indoctrinated with Western Society's values.  Then I did some research myself.  What I use now is an amalgamation of the lot.

(There are some Biblical notions included in there, in case you didn't know.)


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## bad0351 (Jun 16, 2011)

CAL said:


> No Sir,you don't know that God exist.You don't have a personal relationship with our Lord.So,how could you know that God exist.By the same reason and perspective you think He does not exist.If you or any other nonbeliever would allow God to come into their lives you would see without a doubt that God does exist and is alive.My only reason for trying to convince people the greatness of God and the power that is there is to keep them from the inevitable  which a non believer is destined too.This is my only reason for posting here,non other!



What a load of crap......


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## vowell462 (Jun 16, 2011)

CAL said:


> Wrong again Sir!I wish I could get you to see and experience what I have seen and experienced.I guess i am not talented enough in explaining things to get you and other nonbelievers to see how really real God is and has been all the time even in your life.I really think you would like to see what I am speaking about in reality if you just could.Maybe in time you will come to see the things and have the faith to believe in God and the Holy Spirit.As far as open to other beliefs,NO I am not and will never be.I need nothing else.When one has the very best there is no need to look further,believe me.I think you will agree with that last statement at least.
> 
> Since no one can prove God doesn't exist,have you ever wondered just a little bit that He just might exist.There just might be a faint possibility that God influenced something that happened in your life?That there just might be a tiny possibility that God does exist and according to His word if you don't believe what your inevitable end result will be just might possibly be true?



Im not wrong any more than you are.  Thats what you dont seem to get. Please exclaim to me what you have seen to make you believe and ill take a gander. Ill bet there is another reasonable exclamation other than the god of the holy bible( which is all you seem to be educated with,.......typical). 

 Again, i cant say your wrong, doubtful....absolutley. It makes you feel good. I understand that. WE DONT KNOW. You can claim, tell me you have faith, tell me god turned the lights back on after you failed to pay the electric bill, BUT YOU DONT KNOW. Give me proof and ill be a card carrying member. Until then, your just another brainwashed soul just like I was.


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## vowell462 (Jun 16, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Thats fine, just know your belief has no bearing on whether someone does or does not have that relationship.
> I could choose to believe that you don't have a relationship with your wife, that doesnt make it true.
> 
> 
> ...



I came to that realization that the people that were talking to me had absolutly no idea what they were talking about. Had a deacon look at me like I was stupid when I asked about the Spanish Enquisition.  Had one tell me to not pay attention to the old testament at all! So, i thought about the stories of the bible and then realized how crazy they sounded.

 Then, I kept thinking how rude it was to be such a self blazing christian without much knowledge of what others believe. Then, i saw there were thousands of other religions that people have fought and died for, for centuries, that have no bearing on the christian religion.


So, my conclusion this far, is that nobody has the answer....yet.; And my conclusion to someone telling me that they have a personal relationship with god, well, they are brainwashed. As much as I dont like Bill Mayer, he said it right. You do not possess mental powers stronger than mine. You dont. If you do prove it.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 16, 2011)

I've seen the brainwashing first had. I've gotten myself out of it and continue to see the brainwashing of the people that were close to me.. and it seems to be getting worse.. I see the brainwashing coming through in so many places... And those people continue the cycle. They are continueing to lead others to be brainwashed just as other people had led them.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 16, 2011)

CAL said:


> My only reason for trying to convince people the greatness of God and the power that is there is to keep them from the inevitable  which a non believer is destined too.This is my only reason for posting here,non other!



This is typical... We should rename this forum.. Something along the lines of, "the place where mods can come to try to make themselves feel better by trying to save souls."

All the while anyone would get banned for doing the opposite (or the same thing really) in the other forums. Not that I personally care, anyone can waste their life doing whatever they feel happy doing.


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## bigreddwon (Jun 16, 2011)

CAL said:


> exist.Try proving The tooth fairy doesn't exist!I know The tooth fairy exist without a doubt.Now,prove to me He doesn't!



Fixed it.. Reads exactly the same to me... Point taken tho, neither one can be disproved. Still doesn't mean either one exists. 

For that matter, if you take the bible away as 'proof', Jesus' existence cant be _*proved*_ either..


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## dawg2 (Jun 16, 2011)

How about keep the debate CIVIL.  It's a great thread with potential.  If you can answer or address the OP's question , then do so.  If all you have are borderline personal attacks, then stay off the thread.  Attacking the messenger reflects your lack of debating skills.


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## Paymaster (Jun 16, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> This is typical... We should rename this forum.. Something along the lines of, "the place where mods can come to try to make themselves feel better by trying to save souls."
> 
> All the while anyone would get banned for doing the opposite (or the same thing really) in the other forums. Not that I personally care, anyone can waste their life doing whatever they feel happy doing.



Ya know,some Christians feel the Calling to try and keep folks from making the single greatest mistake they could ever make. If you feel like what someone does out of genuine love for their fellowman is an affront to you then just move on. I know where Cal is coming from. He is standing in the line of fire from you all in this forum for what he believes is right,just on the slimmest chance that someone might turn and look toward the light.


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## bigreddwon (Jun 16, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Thats fine, just know your belief has no bearing on whether someone does or does not have that relationship.
> I could choose to believe that you don't have a relationship with your wife, that doesnt make it true.
> 
> 
> ...


  Your kidding , right? Money and power for starters.. The church has and always will have _immense power_.  The mass's of people who 'vote the bible' and not whats in their country's best interest is staggering. Bring another one into the 'flock' to be fleeced of money and control their vote. The brainwashed die everyday.Fact. So new ones HAVE to be brought in  (much like tobacco company's) to replace the ones who have passed. Combine the 'convincing' of new adults with the forced _indoctrination_ of the children and it keeps the church flush with cash and political power that can't be ignored. I grew up with 'religion', I _know_ the peer pressure placed on children to shut up and pray.. Personally.


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## across the river (Jun 16, 2011)

bigreddwon said:


> Fixed it.. Reads exactly the same to me... Point taken tho, neither one can be disproved. Still doesn't mean either one exists.
> 
> For that matter, if you take the bible away as 'proof', Jesus' existence cant be _*proved*_ either..



Actually, even from historical standpoint that statement is completely false.  There are many records of Jesus outside of the Bible.   Whether or not your believe in God should have no basis on whether or not you believe Jesus lived on the earth.  There is more historical proof (outside of the Bible) of the existence of Jesus than there is of Julius Cesar.  If you google it it you can find tons of information, outside of that provided by the "fringe" Christians.  You may hear Steven Hawkins and other say God doesn't exist, but notice you will never hear them say Jesus didn't exist.  They may not believe he was who he said he was, but they will never say he didn't exist.


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## bigreddwon (Jun 16, 2011)

Paymaster said:


> Ya know,some Christians feel the Calling to try and keep folks from making the single greatest mistake they could ever make. If you feel like what someone does out of genuine love for their fellowman is an affront to you then just move on. I know where Cal is coming from. He is standing in the line of fire from you all in this forum for what he believes is right,just on the slimmest chance that someone might turn and look toward the light.



You wanna talk about being in the line of fire? Try being an Atheist in the deep south! It would be MUCH easier to just lie and say I believed..


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## Asath (Jun 17, 2011)

If this is serious, which it can’t really be given the stubborn, bullying nature of the OP and the subsequent responses, if one is looking for ‘proof that God does not exist,’ and cannot possibly exist, I’ll offer the most compelling possible reason:  Religions.

Not ‘religion,’ singular, but ‘religions,’ plural.

Were there a ‘God,’ as defined by each and every of the monotheistic religions, and if that ‘God’ had actually revealed itself and written down a bunch of stuff that we needed to know, then there could hardly be a single doubt, disagreement, interpretation, or dispute.  It would have looked like this: 

God:  “Yo, fellas?  I created the lot of you out of a sneezing fit up here, and I’m sorry for the inconvenience, but since you’re here, each and every one of you has to worship and obey me at all times and in all things.  I’m infallible, you know, so don’t mess around.”

Humanity:  “ Um?  Prove it.”

God:  “I’ll smite the lot of ya if you give me a hard time.  I’ve got a whole universe to govern, and you are hereby given free-will, ‘cause I haven’t got the slightest interest in your individual problems.  Work it out for yourselves – that is what free-will means, okay.”

Humanity:  “Okay, but, what about all of the other Gods?  Won’t they get a bit miffed?  We don’t want to cross them, because they get just as mean, vindictive, and murderous as you.”

God:  “Watch this:  I smite thee.  All of you, ya ingrates, but for a very few.  So there.  That’s what you get for doubting my eternal love and mercy.  Drowned you to a man, woman and child.  Any other questions?”

Humanity:  “Just a few.  So you’re saying that we are actually all descendants of Noah, since he and his family are the only ones You chose to leave alive here in your Creation?

God:  “Work it out.  I’m growing weary of all of the ‘beseeching’ and ‘praying’ and pushing me around with your desires.  I cast your sad butts out of the Garden of Eden for asking too many questions.  Which part of that don’t you get?”

Humanity:  “ Nothing personal, God, but it seems like you behave a bit like a spoiled, immature brat in most of the stories of you.  Can these stories actually be true?”

God:  “You bet.”

Or we, quite reasonably, don’t bet.  Our ‘proof’ that God does not exist is just that simple – If there were such a thing as a single God,  ‘belief’ systems could not have fragmented to the point that there are dozens upon dozens of competing and mutually exclusive ‘sects’ within the ‘Christian’ faith alone.

The proof that there is no God is the simple fact that the ‘God of Abraham,’ as an idealizing experiment in monotheism, has spawned the uncountably diverse proliferation of sects within Judaic practice, Islamic practice, and Christian practice.  If there were a singular God, in any form or useful function, there would have been not only no need for the divergence of ‘faith,’ but no possibility of such divergence.

It is not possible to propose a God that favors only one’s own form of belief and worship, and casts all others into a ‘lake of fire.’  That is not ‘god-like behavior,’ as described by various people in exhaustive detail.  A God of all Creation would be unable to condemn ANY of his Creations.  That would be an admission of error.     

Religion is created and spread merely by men with a thirst for control, history reveals.  Sad to say, but creating a ‘higher power’ for the purely human purposes of megalomania is actually the history of God(s).  

No real God would tolerate the Baskin-Robbins, ‘Choose-Your-Own-Favorite-Belief’ nonsense for five minutes. Is one a Catholic, or a Baptist, or a Methodist or a  . . .  Be serious.  ‘My God can beat up your God?’  Still inside of ‘Christianity?  This alone ‘disproves’ any and all Gods.


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## CAL (Jun 17, 2011)

Asath said:


> If this is serious, which it can’t really be given the stubborn, bullying nature of the OP and the subsequent responses, if one is looking for ‘proof that God does not exist,’ and cannot possibly exist, I’ll offer the most compelling possible reason:  Religions.
> 
> Not ‘religion,’ singular, but ‘religions,’ plural.
> 
> ...



Huh,"oh ye of little faith".Sorry,didn't know I was "stubborn,with a bullying nature"just because I asked for proof that God does not exist.That is one my wife hasn't thought of,I must tell her.Thanks but no thanks for all your negative unsupported comments. You haven't proved anything only strengthened the meaning of blasphemy.


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## dawg2 (Jun 17, 2011)

bigreddwon said:


> You wanna talk about being in the line of fire? Try being an Atheist in the deep south! It would be MUCH easier to just lie and say I believed..



Try being a Catholic.  You have no idea.


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## dawg2 (Jun 17, 2011)

Asath said:


> Or we, quite reasonably, don’t bet.  Our ‘proof’ that God does not exist is just that simple – If there were such a thing as a single God,  ‘belief’ systems could not have fragmented to the point that there are dozens upon dozens of competing and mutually exclusive ‘sects’ within the ‘Christian’ faith alone.
> .


Very simplistic view and highly flawed.  An analogy to your argument could be simply: "Parents don't exist."  For example:  
_Or we, quite reasonably, don’t bet.  Our ‘proof’ that PARENTS do not exist is just that simple – If there were such a thing as a PARENT,  THE WAY WE (CHILDREN)WERE RAISED could not have fragmented to the point that there are dozens upon dozens of BAD BEHAVIORS AND DISRESPECT AND JAILED FELONS within the FAMILY alone_




Asath said:


> The proof that there is no God is the simple fact that the ‘God of Abraham,’ as an idealizing experiment in monotheism, has spawned the uncountably diverse proliferation of sects within Judaic practice, Islamic practice, and Christian practice.  If there were a singular God, in any form or useful function, there would have been not only no need for the divergence of ‘faith,’ but no possibility of such divergence.....
> 
> ...Religion is created and spread merely by men with a thirst for control, history reveals.  Sad to say, but creating a ‘higher power’ for the purely human purposes of megalomania is actually the history of God(s).
> 
> No real God would tolerate the Baskin-Robbins, ‘Choose-Your-Own-Favorite-Belief’ nonsense for five minutes. Is one a Catholic, or a Baptist, or a Methodist or a  . . .  Be serious.  ‘My God can beat up your God?’  Still inside of ‘Christianity?  This alone ‘disproves’ any and all Gods.


Conflicting argument: you first say there is no God because of the different faiths, then go on to explain why there are.  The reason: FALLIBILITY OF MAN.  It's that simple.  To take it one step further: Free will.

Sure people have abused religion and used it for personal or material gain.  People do the same with alcohol.  Some do it with food.  Others with money.  Some people fight dogs or roosters.  Does that make ALL alcohol, food, money, dogs and roosters EVIL?  No.  It certainly does not.



Asath said:


> ...No real God would tolerate the Baskin-Robbins, ‘Choose-Your-Own-Favorite-Belief’ nonsense for five minutes. Is one a Catholic, or a Baptist, or a Methodist or a  . . .  Be serious.  ‘My God can beat up your God?’  Still inside of ‘Christianity?  This alone ‘disproves’ any and all Gods.


Once again, this does not prove God exists nor does it prove his non-existence.  It merely (again) magnifies the "fallibility of humans" and the free will we are allowed. 

Just because you raise your kids to your standards / beliefs does NOT mean they won't one day show up as a meth addict, prostitute, robber, murderer, etc.  Just because you raised them in your perfect bubble, does not mean they will stay that way for eternity.  One day they will get their freedom from your parental influence.  When they do all you can do is HOPE they don't stray.  But if they do, they are still your children.


----------



## stringmusic (Jun 17, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> So He sat idly by and watched children play with an upside down, running lawnmower?  Surely one can only assume that He had some kind of wondrous plan or lesson that that should be taken from the Holocaust.  Maybe we are just to dumb to see it.  And if you believe that, your morality is subject to serious criticism.


We have went over this before, He made humans, not robots. He doesnt force Himself on us. 
God: You dont have a relationship with me and dont even think I exist, and you want to play with an upside down lawnmower? Have at it. 





> He could chain him to a tire or a couple of cinder blocks to slow him down.


Doesnt create robots  




> *I think the Holocaust was bad, unfriendly, un-epathetic, naughty, evil, ill conceived and plain wrong.*  Where did I learn to make these judgements?   First, my Momma and Papa taught me.  Then I was indoctrinated with Western Society's values.  Then I did some research myself.  What I use now is an amalgamation of the lot.
> 
> (There are some Biblical notions included in there, in case you didn't know.)



Thats fine if that what you think about the Holocaust. What would you say to someone that thinks there is nothing wrong with what happened during the Holocaust? If values are subjective, you cant possibly think that person is wrong.


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## stringmusic (Jun 17, 2011)

bigreddwon said:


> Your kidding , right? Money and power for starters.. The church has and always will have _immense power_.  The mass's of people who 'vote the bible' and not whats in their country's best interest is staggering. Bring another one into the 'flock' to be fleeced of money and control their vote. The brainwashed die everyday.Fact. So new ones HAVE to be brought in  (much like tobacco company's) to replace the ones who have passed. Combine the 'convincing' of new adults with the forced _indoctrination_ of the children and it keeps the church flush with cash and political power that can't be ignored. I grew up with 'religion', I _know_ the peer pressure placed on children to shut up and pray.. Personally.


to quote Dawg2 in post #43......

Sure people have abused religion and used it for personal or material gain. People do the same with alcohol. Some do it with food. Others with money. Some people fight dogs or roosters. Does that make ALL alcohol, food, money, dogs and roosters EVIL? No. It certainly does not.


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## stringmusic (Jun 17, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> *I came to that realization that the people that were talking to me had absolutly no idea what they were talking about.* Had a deacon look at me like I was stupid when I asked about the Spanish Enquisition.  Had one tell me to not pay attention to the old testament at all! So, i thought about the stories of the bible and then realized how crazy they sounded.


What if your the one who has absolutly no idea?

Dont let _people_ like Deacons make your decisions for you.



> Then, I kept thinking how rude it was to be such a self blazing christian without much knowledge of what others believe.


This is very true, doesnt make Christianity not the truth.



> Then, i saw there were thousands of other religions that people have fought and died for, for centuries, that have no bearing on the christian religion.


There is only One Saviour in all those religions. Out of all the "gods" there was only One that came for us. Its along the lines of, if your children were in a burning house, would you sit back and hope they find their way out, or go in and get them?




> So, my conclusion this far, is that nobody has the answer....yet.; And my conclusion to someone telling me that they have a personal relationship with god, well, they are brainwashed. As much as I dont like Bill Mayer, he said it right. You do not possess mental powers stronger than mine. You dont. If you do prove it.



When are you going to come to the realization that Bill Mayer "has absolutly no idea what he is talking about"?

.... and by the way, I dont have to prove it, to you, or anyone else.


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## stringmusic (Jun 17, 2011)

bigreddwon said:


> Fixed it.. Reads exactly the same to me... Point taken tho, neither one can be disproved. Still doesn't mean either one exists.
> 
> For that matter, if you take the bible away as 'proof', Jesus' existence cant be _*proved*_ either..





across the river said:


> *Actually, even from historical standpoint that statement is completely false.  There are many records of Jesus outside of the Bible.   Whether or not your believe in God should have no basis on whether or not you believe Jesus lived on the earth.  There is more historical proof (outside of the Bible) of the existence of Jesus than there is of Julius Cesar.  If you google it it you can find tons of information, outside of that provided by the "fringe" Christians.  You may hear Steven Hawkins and other say God doesn't exist, but notice you will never hear them say Jesus didn't exist.  They may not believe he was who he said he was, but they will never say he didn't exist.*



Just want to make sure you read this


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## ambush80 (Jun 17, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> We have went over this before, He made humans, not robots. He doesnt force Himself on us.
> God: You dont have a relationship with me and dont even think I exist, and you want to play with an upside down lawnmower? Have at it.



Is this the stance you would take with your own child, even if they were an adult, if they wanted to play with a lawnmower? Afterwards, would you give them a stern "I told you so."? 






stringmusic said:


> Doesnt create robots



Yet everything we, Satan included, do is part of His divine purpose....Hmmmm.






stringmusic said:


> Thats fine if that what you think about the Holocaust. What would you say to someone that thinks there is nothing wrong with what happened during the Holocaust? If values are subjective, you cant possibly think that person is wrong.



They can be shown to be irrational on many levels.  Now if they say that what they are doing is righteous or the will of God, particularly if they say He told them himself, well, that's hard to argue against using reason.  Hitler thought he was doing God's work.


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## dawg2 (Jun 17, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> ....  Hitler thought he was doing God's work.


There are people that think the USA is doing God's work in Libya and Afghanistan.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 17, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> What if your the one who has absolutly no idea?
> 
> Dont let _people_ like Deacons make your decisions for you.



Who aided in your decision? It was NOT 100% you. You heard stuff from deacons, preachers, priests and everyone you have ever come in to contact with in your church, and now you go with the flow.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 17, 2011)

bigreddwon said:


> You wanna talk about being in the line of fire? Try being an Atheist in the deep south! It would be MUCH easier to just lie and say I believed..



I've said this before. It's funny how I was taught in church that we as christians would be under fire. I find much more fire now.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 17, 2011)

dawg2 said:


> How about keep the debate CIVIL.  It's a great thread with potential.  If you can answer or address the OP's question , then do so.  If all you have are borderline personal attacks, then stay off the thread.  Attacking the messenger reflects your lack of debating skills.




I don't see really much potential.. Several of us have said IT'S IMPOSSIBLE.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 17, 2011)

To get very elementary, I don't thing one needs to consider religion, the lack of religion, or the rediculousness of religion to believe there just must be a God.
I can read all the available literature on how the very first substance came into being through some explosion but I could never be satisfied with its explanation.
"Something" has caused all this that I see around me to come into being and to work the way it does.

I'm glad that I have somehow allowed God to become known to me.  
I could be an atheist.  I know I could..... I'm a logic thinking person.  I spent a career in the Army.  I was a 1SG.  I was a bad dude.  It could have been easy for me to NOT believe in a devine being.  But logic tells me that there must, absolutely must, be "Something" that brought all this into being.

We didn't get these taste buds through evolution.
T Edison didn't get the mental aptitude to "invent" the lightbulb through evolution.
God, my heavenly Father, has had a hand in all of it.
It was the only logical explanation for me.  And now I'm certain.


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## stringmusic (Jun 17, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> Is this the stance you would take with your own child, even if they were an adult, if they wanted to play with a lawnmower? Afterwards, would you give them a stern "I told you so."?p


My first child wont be born until Nov., November 9 to be exact. I wont give him/her free will. If they die for reasons because I stood back and watched, I cannot control what happens after that, God can. 








> Yet everything we, Satan included, do is part of His divine purpose....Hmmmm.


I think He can use any situation for His divine purpose. Pre outcome or post outcome.








> They can be shown to be irrational on many levels.


Is being irrational wrong in your eyes? If your answer is yes, then why is it wrong?

What you cant get away from is that every moral denunciation implies purpose. Your implying those people in the Holocaust should have lived, that they had a better purpose on this earth then to be shoved into a gas chamber, and your doing so objectively. Why is that so? Its in you from the beginning.


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## stringmusic (Jun 17, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> Who aided in your decision? It was NOT 100% you. You heard stuff from deacons, preachers, priests and everyone you have ever come in to contact with in your church, and now you go with the flow.



You asked me a question and then answered it for me???


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## bullethead (Jun 17, 2011)

CAL said:


> exist.Try proving God doesn't exist!I know God exist without a doubt.Now,prove to me He doesn't!



Cal no one can use conventional methods to prove or disprove what is in someone else's mind. It is no different than having a favorite sports team, each person thinks they are the best for their own reason, even if they have not  had a winning season in 20years. Like religion, a lot of it has to with where you were born and raised and what your parents liked.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 17, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> You asked me a question and then answered it for me???



Of course. I have a knack for knowing everything. I definitely presumed. How wrong was I?


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## WTM45 (Jun 17, 2011)

People can be led to believe they are wretched.
People can be led to believe they are chosen.
Ultimately, it is their decision to make.  Everyone wants to feel they are somehow special or significant.  When they worry over others they are really saying they feel superior, regardless of the spiritual implication.
No one should ever be offended.


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## hunter rich (Jun 17, 2011)

You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill.
I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose freewill.


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## ambush80 (Jun 17, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> My first child wont be born until Nov., November 9 to be exact. I wont give him/her free will. If they die for reasons because I stood back and watched, I cannot control what happens after that, God can.



Congratulations.  So you hold yourself to a higher standard of morality than God does.  Me too.  




stringmusic said:


> I think He can use any situation for His divine purpose. Pre outcome or post outcome.



I don't like the way He conducts His affairs, so I'll just not believe in Him.




stringmusic said:


> Is being irrational wrong in your eyes? If your answer is yes, then why is it wrong?
> 
> What you cant get away from is that every moral denunciation implies purpose. Your implying those people in the Holocaust should have lived, that they had a better purpose on this earth then to be shoved into a gas chamber, and your doing so objectively. Why is that so? Its in you from the beginning.



When it comes to defining "rights" and "wrongs", I think reason is the best tool for the job.  

What I'm clearly stating is that using reason and rational thinking, no one could conclude that killing all those people for those reasons was good, beneficial, friendly, moral, Kosher or copacetic.  Completely rational people don't start fist fights.  On the other hand, if someone says God told them to do it, who can argue?


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## stringmusic (Jun 17, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> When it comes to defining "rights" and "wrongs", I think reason is the best tool for the job.
> 
> What I'm clearly stating is that using reason and rational thinking, no one could conclude that killing all those people for those reasons was good, beneficial, friendly, moral, Kosher or copacetic.  Completely rational people don't start fist fights.  On the other hand, if someone says God told them to do it, who can argue?



Is rational thinking and reason objective then?


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 17, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> What I'm clearly stating is that using reason and rational thinking, no one could conclude that killing all those people for those reasons was good, beneficial, friendly, moral, Kosher or copacetic.  Completely rational people don't start fist fights.  On the other hand, if someone says God told them to do it, who can argue?



If someone treated my daughter in an appropriate way, I would think it would be beneficial to get in a fist fight with them... Rationally thinking and using my reason... I think I see a little bit of what string is talking about... although... 

Excellent point.


ambush80 said:


> Congratulations.  So you hold yourself to a higher standard of morality than God does.  Me too.


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## stringmusic (Jun 17, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> Congratulations.  So you hold yourself to a higher standard of morality than God does.  Me too.


In what ways? By not giving my child {absolute} free will?
I guess the difference here would be Gods perspective of life and pain and mine a your perspective of the same. 

I cant explain this very well, for one, I dont understand it completely. I know others such a gtparts have given better explanations of the situation before.


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## ambush80 (Jun 17, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> In what ways? By not giving my child {absolute} free will?
> I guess the difference here would be Gods perspective of life and pain and mine a your perspective of the same.
> 
> I cant explain this very well, for one, I dont understand it completely. I know others such a gtparts have given better explanations of the situation before.




Yes.  And all the explanations require special pleading.


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## vowell462 (Jun 17, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> What if your the one who has absolutly no idea?
> I dont. Niether do you. Thats the whole point.
> 
> Dont let _people_ like Deacons make your decisions for you.
> ...



Typical. Someone questions your belief and wants a reasonable explanation and you come back with a sarcastic" I dont have to prove it to you". Thats because you cant prove it or even give a logical explanation. But yet, Im supposed to believe what you believe because you say so? Im supposed to believe that you have a relationship with god and I dont because I question it? Do you realize how crazy that sounds? 

Dont take my questions personal String, I read just about all your post and enjoy them. As well as all the others on this forum. And how do you select quote posts all nice and neat like you do? I cant figure it out!


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## Michael F. Gray (Jun 17, 2011)

Bless you for trying, however many of you Godly folks are attempting to reason with the unreasonable. In the Gospel of John Jesus said plainly He is the Shepard, and His sheep hear his voice. He also said those who seek find. I profess Christ is real and God exists, my name is in his Book, I've been cleansed in His redeeming Blood. I hear His voice and he guides my life. No further comment required.


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## CAL (Jun 17, 2011)

Michael F. Gray said:


> Bless you for trying, however many of you Godly folks are attempting to reason with the unreasonable. In the Gospel of John Jesus said plainly He is the Shepard, and His sheep hear his voice. He also said those who seek find. I profess Christ is real and God exists, my name is in his Book, I've been cleansed in His redeeming Blood. I hear His voice and he guides my life. No further comment required.



You have got it Michael Gray.If I can get by the terrible things I have done in my life and the Lord forgives me,I'll see you in the promise land!Thanks for your comments.


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## vowell462 (Jun 17, 2011)

Michael F. Gray said:


> Bless you for trying, however many of you Godly folks are attempting to reason with the unreasonable. In the Gospel of John Jesus said plainly He is the Shepard, and His sheep hear his voice. He also said those who seek find. I profess Christ is real and God exists, my name is in his Book, I've been cleansed in His redeeming Blood. I hear His voice and he guides my life. No further comment required.



I appreciate your input. However, I could say your unreasonable as well. You proclaim im unreasonable but yet you readily admit to a talking voice in your head and have no basis besides a book that was written decades after the life of Jesus? Im open to answers, im constantly looking. But wow, this aint it.


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## bullethead (Jun 17, 2011)

Michael F. Gray said:


> Bless you for trying, however many of you Godly folks are attempting to reason with the unreasonable. In the Gospel of John Jesus said plainly He is the Shepard, and His sheep hear his voice. He also said those who seek find. I profess Christ is real and God exists, my name is in his Book, I've been cleansed in His redeeming Blood. I hear His voice and he guides my life. No further comment required.



Michael, who wrote the Gospel of John?


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## Ronnie T (Jun 17, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Michael, who wrote the Gospel of John?



I'm not Michael but,   "God did"!!!!

"All scripture is God breathed".


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## atlashunter (Jun 17, 2011)

across the river said:


> Actually, even from historical standpoint that statement is completely false.  There are many records of Jesus outside of the Bible.   Whether or not your believe in God should have no basis on whether or not you believe Jesus lived on the earth.  There is more historical proof (outside of the Bible) of the existence of Jesus than there is of Julius Cesar.  If you google it it you can find tons of information, outside of that provided by the "fringe" Christians.  You may hear Steven Hawkins and other say God doesn't exist, but notice you will never hear them say Jesus didn't exist.  They may not believe he was who he said he was, but they will never say he didn't exist.



Cite some please. Make sure it's contemporary evidence and not stories of stories from people who came decades and centuries later.


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## atlashunter (Jun 17, 2011)

Michael F. Gray said:


> Bless you for trying, however many of you Godly folks are attempting to reason with the unreasonable. In the Gospel of John Jesus said plainly He is the Shepard, and His sheep hear his voice. He also said those who seek find. I profess Christ is real and God exists, my name is in his Book, I've been cleansed in His redeeming Blood. I hear His voice and he guides my life. No further comment required.



Much more truth in that statement than Christians would probably be willing to admit. People who seek aliens also tend to be the ones who get abducted by them. Go figure.


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## bigreddwon (Jun 18, 2011)

CAL said:


> You have got it Michael Gray.If I can get by the terrible things I have done in my life and the Lord forgives me,I'll see you in the promise land!Thanks for your comments.



You don't need an imaginary deity to forgive you for the terrible things you've done. You need the _victims_ of the terrible things you've done to forgive you. If their are no victims, then _YOU_ need to forgive yourself, learn from the experience and become a better human. An imaginary deity is not a necessary ingredient in being a a good human, a moral and ethical human, plenty of folks with two tons of religion in them are human waste. I'm sure you've met a few.  

Cal, you are in the promise land _*right now*_. Look into your child's eyes, or your grandchildren,family.. there it is right there, _*here and NOW*_.. The dead stay dead.. Enjoy every moment with the living..


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## ambush80 (Jun 18, 2011)

bigreddwon said:


> You don't need an imaginary deity to forgive you for the terrible things you've done. You need the _victims_ of the terrible things you've done to forgive you. If their are no victims, then _YOU_ need to forgive yourself, learn from the experience and become a better human. An imaginary deity is not a necessary ingredient in being a a good human, a moral and ethical human, plenty of folks with two tons of religion in them are human waste. I'm sure you've met a few.
> 
> Cal, you are in the promise land _*right now*_. Look into your child's eyes, or your grandchildren,family.. there it is right there, _*here and NOW*_.. The dead stay dead.. Enjoy every moment with the living..



...and the people said: "Amen".


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## bad0351 (Jun 18, 2011)

bigreddwon said:


> You don't need an imaginary deity to forgive you for the terrible things you've done. You need the _victims_ of the terrible things you've done to forgive you. If their are no victims, then _YOU_ need to forgive yourself, learn from the experience and become a better human. An imaginary deity is not a necessary ingredient in being a a good human, a moral and ethical human, plenty of folks with two tons of religion in them are human waste. I'm sure you've met a few.
> 
> Cal, you are in the promise land _*right now*_. Look into your child's eyes, or your grandchildren,family.. there it is right there, _*here and NOW*_.. The dead stay dead.. Enjoy every moment with the living..



Finaly......A voice of reason that makes sense


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## bullethead (Jun 18, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> I'm not Michael but,   "God did"!!!!
> 
> "All scripture is God breathed".



Well Ronny while I can appreciate your deep beliefs it is also those deep beliefs that cloud your thoughts. You say "God did" OK so be it. In your mind it is true. 

The real fact is that men wrote them many years after it may or may not have happened by men who were never there. The words are inaccurate and full of errors and include tales that are contrary to to the other scriptures. Most of some scriptures are exact copies of other scripture yet many details do not match between the two. I know we have gone round and round on here about these things but the works do not have any divine, inerrant flow at all.  IF god wrote them, there are WAY better authors.

I understand you don't want to believe in anything else and that is fine but to not take the time to really research your beliefs and understand who wrote them down for you to worship is a disservice to yourself.


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## CAL (Jun 18, 2011)

bigreddwon said:


> You don't need an imaginary deity to forgive you for the terrible things you've done. You need the _victims_ of the terrible things you've done to forgive you. If their are no victims, then _YOU_ need to forgive yourself, learn from the experience and become a better human. An imaginary deity is not a necessary ingredient in being a a good human, a moral and ethical human, plenty of folks with two tons of religion in them are human waste. I'm sure you've met a few.
> 
> Cal, you are in the promise land _*right now*_. Look into your child's eyes, or your grandchildren,family.. there it is right there, _*here and NOW*_.. The dead stay dead.. Enjoy every moment with the living..



Yes Sir Big red,ya right about the human waste thought and I have met a few.As far as my children and grandchildren I do love them more than life itself.
But I disagree with the dead staying dead.My Bible that I have so much confidence in says i will never die and neither will you or anyone else.Just transcend into another realm.My old body will die and I will never miss it since it isn't much count as it is.It also says that where we are living now in this world as we all know it, is the worst we will ever see if we only believe.Now it doesn't say this for the people that don't believe.I am sure you know what the Bible says will happen to them.If I am wrong in this belief I have lost absolutely nothing at all.

Some posters have posted some pretty sarcastic and hurtful post here.There are many Christians that would post here with their on dealings with the Lord if this wasn't so.It hurts more than some realize or I am sure they wouldn't do this.I like to think so anyway.In the Bible Jesus never won anyone over to Christianity by putting them down,making fun,or hurting feelings.Neither is it my intentions to do this either.If I have done so I apologize right now to whom ever I came across to this way.My life has been so much better since I have let our Lord come into my life till I just want everyone to have some of it.Surely this can't be wrong!


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## Ronnie T (Jun 18, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Well Ronny while I can appreciate your deep beliefs it is also those deep beliefs that cloud your thoughts. You say "God did" OK so be it. In your mind it is true.
> 
> The real fact is that men wrote them many years after it may or may not have happened by men who were never there. The words are inaccurate and full of errors and include tales that are contrary to to the other scriptures. Most of some scriptures are exact copies of other scripture yet many details do not match between the two. I know we have gone round and round on here about these things but the works do not have any divine, inerrant flow at all.  IF god wrote them, there are WAY better authors.
> 
> I understand you don't want to believe in anything else and that is fine but to not take the time to really research your beliefs and understand who wrote them down for you to worship is a disservice to yourself.



I pray that some day you'll come to believe it as I believe it.


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## bullethead (Jun 18, 2011)

I appreciate your efforts in prayer but I once did believe as you do. DEEPLY. The more I looked into it though, the less I liked until it came to the point where my efforts to find out everything I could about my religions roots, history and beginnings showed me things that I just can no longer have faith in.

I am fully convinced that blind faith is no way to go through life and I don't do it in any other aspect of my life. I am no better or worse of a person now than I was when I followed christian teachings. In fact I am happy to have looked into it all and was able to make the conclusions I have made by seeing as much good and bad, real and unreal, truth or fiction. When I finally was able to really look at religion without a bias and absorb what is there and not there, I felt better about life.


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## Nicodemus (Jun 18, 2011)

I`m curious about something from you athiests. Ya`ll don`t believe in God. So why do ya`ll wonder, care, worry, or are even curious about what Christians do? Ya`ll don`t believe, remember? And why do some of you try to sway Christians away from their faith?


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## bad0351 (Jun 18, 2011)

Nicodemus said:


> I`m curious about something from you athiests. Ya`ll don`t believe in God. So why do ya`ll wonder, care, worry, or are even curious about what Christians do? Ya`ll don`t believe, remember? And why do some of you try to sway Christians away from their faith?



I was wondering the same thing......about christians.


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## Nicodemus (Jun 18, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> I was wondering the same thing......about christians.





Because most Christians want to spread the word.


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## bullethead (Jun 18, 2011)

Nicodemus said:


> I`m curious about something from you athiests. Ya`ll don`t believe in God. So why do ya`ll wonder, care, worry, or are even curious about what Christians do? Ya`ll don`t believe, remember? And why do some of you try to sway Christians away from their faith?



For me, I like to discuss WHY some believe as they do. I get many of the same answers that I would have given 20years ago. I can now point out that many of those answers are not exactly true or as advertized and leave it up to the individual to pursue it further or not. I don't mind any individual believing in whatever they believe in. I wouldn't try to convert anyone's beliefs. I do not mind showing someone another point of view if they have not thought along those lines. I really try to stay out of the christianity forum and let them discuss whatever among themselves. I do not think the same courtesy is given in the A/A/A forum though. I don't mind the company, that is what makes it interesting, but it takes two to Tango. I think anyone with strong beliefs can pass them on as they wish, but they should also be prepared to defend them and hear another side of it. Nicodemus, if someone told you there was only one way to hunt deer, nap a flint, shoot a flintlock, brand of shoe,etc, and proclaimed it in every breath, would you show them another way and let them take it from there?


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## Nicodemus (Jun 18, 2011)

bullethead said:


> For me, I like to discuss WHY some believe as they do. I get many of the same answers that I would have given 20years ago. I can now point out that many of those answers are not exactly true or as advertized and leave it up to the individual to pursue it further or not. I don't mind any individual believing in whatever they believe in. I wouldn't try to convert anyone's beliefs. I do not mind showing someone another point of view if they have not thought along those lines. I really try to stay out of the christianity forum and let them discuss whatever among themselves. I do not think the same courtesy is given in the A/A/A forum though. I don't mind the company, that is what makes it interesting, but it takes two to Tango. I think anyone with strong beliefs can pass them on as they wish, but they should also be prepared to defend them and hear another side of it. Nicodemus, if someone told you there was only one way to hunt deer, nap a flint, shoot a flintlock, brand of shoe,etc, and proclaimed it in every breath, would you show them another way and let them take it from there?



I would show or tell them once, them leave them to their own devices. From then on, it would be their decision.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 18, 2011)

I understand what your saying but there would be no point to any forum if that was all it took. I don't think it is a one sided show. Most Christians like to spread the word and most Non-Believers like to counter the word. Most Non-Believers like to talk with like minded people and most Christians like to have their say in the conversation too. One wouldn't exist without the other. We'd all get sick of everyone agreeing. Even in Christianity there are differences that set each denomination apart and there wasn't a non-believer on the planet, the differences within would have a forum for telling each other who's wrong and who's right.


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## bullethead (Jun 18, 2011)

I once read where a smooth bore .68 cal flintlock shooting a non-patched round ball was more accurate at 200yds than any rifled barrel shooting a patched round ball or minnie. The author never actually fired either, or was there when the tests took place, but he wrote it down and I believe it.

Now I KNOW that might get under the skin a bit, but I'm tryin to get it into perspective for ya!!!


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## Nicodemus (Jun 18, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I once read where a smooth bore .68 cal flintlock shooting a non-patched round ball was more accurate at 200yds than any rifled barrel shooting a patched round ball or minnie. The author never actually fired either, or was there when the tests took place, but he wrote it down and I believe it.
> 
> Now I KNOW that might get under the skin a bit, but I'm tryin to get it into perspective for ya!!!





Careful, or I might move this thread to the Muzzleloader Forum.


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## bullethead (Jun 18, 2011)

Nicodemus said:


> Careful, or I might move this thread to the Muzzleloader Forum.



LOLOLOLOL  OHHHHHH I BET it would get interesting! LOLOLOL!!!!


The argument could be made that there is a possibility that there is ONE of those smoothbores on the planet and MIGHT be able to do that, but your experiences, range time, tests, and better judgement tells you otherwise. If anyone would constantly claim otherwise, I KNOW I'd want proof!!


----------



## bigreddwon (Jun 18, 2011)

Nicodemus said:


> Because most Christians want to spread the word.



Imagine if homosexuals did the same thing? Went door to door trying to 'save' people from heterosexuality, pamphlets and billboards. Telling you how sorry they feel for you because your straight.. Ya don't have to be Nostradamus to how see THAT would go over.. 



Also, it strikes me real funny, especially in the south here that folks are SO religious yet (some, NOT ALL) _*so*_ racist toward middle-easterners or anything from that part of the world , yet hold JESUS at the highest place in their life. A person of _*middle eastern decent*_. If he and his 12 apostles got on their plane, ( _*not*_ wearing T-shirts that say "_Relax, I'm Jesus" or "Relax, I'm an Apostle, not A terrorist_" but their _native_ clothing) most Die hard Jesus lovers would run off that plane like their hair was on fire.. Deny it if you must, but I'm pretty sure if you think about it honestly you'd have to agree.

I'm not calling anyone racist, just making a general observation on how I view this topic, not meaning to hurt anyone's feeling or talk bad about their faith, just sayin..


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## Nicodemus (Jun 18, 2011)

bullethead said:


> LOLOLOLOL  OHHHHHH I BET it would get interesting! LOLOLOL!!!!
> 
> 
> The argument could be made that there is a possibility that there is ONE of those smoothbores on the planet and MIGHT be able to do that, but your experiences, range time, tests, and better judgement tells you otherwise. If anyone would constantly claim otherwise, I KNOW I'd want proof!!





You`re sharp, but if you`re tryin` to lure me into a debate, you have done gone to the goat house, lookin` for wool. I`m sure somebody will be so kind as to oblige you though. You have a good evenin`.  

Regards


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## bullethead (Jun 18, 2011)

Nicodemus said:


> You`re sharp, but if you`re tryin` to lure me into a debate, you have done gone to the goat house, lookin` for wool. I`m sure somebody will be so kind as to oblige you though. You have a good evenin`.
> 
> Regards



No Sir, not looking to lure you or anyone into a debate. I hoped to put it into terms that you could relate to so you could see where I am coming from.

Keep your powder dry and nose to the wind and have a good night Nic.


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## vowell462 (Jun 19, 2011)

Spotlite said:


> But the difference is..............we KNOW its real
> 
> You can only ASSUME its not
> 
> ...



not to be rude, but no you dont. You dont know. Thats the problem. I dont consider myself atheist. Is there a possibility of god? absolutley. Just like there is a possibilty of us being an experiment from another galaxy. For all we know, we could be a molecule on someones pencil eraser. We dont know. And I will exclaim that you dont know.


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## bullethead (Jun 19, 2011)

Which classroom did this take place? It sounds like a talented writer that is lacking the facts. I don't know of any professors that teach students that they evolved from a monkey.(wishful thinking on the authors part to make his story sound believable)

It sounds like one of those spiritual greeting cards....some writer jots down  a conversation between "someone" and "God/Jesus" (think footprints in the sand...we all have read that one) and most of the people that read it think it actually took place.

It is another Fabricated story to try to prove a point with a lie.


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## bullethead (Jun 19, 2011)

http://coalblacksea.blogspot.com/2010/04/god-vs-science.html


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## WTM45 (Jun 19, 2011)

bigreddwon said:


> Also, it strikes me real funny, especially in the south here that folks are SO religious yet (some, NOT ALL) _*so*_ racist toward middle-easterners or anything from that part of the world , yet hold JESUS at the highest place in their life.



Shoot, simply let someone be from north of the Mason Dixon and watch the wagons circle here!


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## atlashunter (Jun 19, 2011)

Sounds like a story concocted by somebody like Ravi Zacharias. The trick here is defining God as good. Anything he does, anytime he is present, is good since evil is nothing more than his absence. So when he instructs one tribe to murder another, that's not evil but good. If he were to order child rape that wouldn't be evil but good. It avoids the problem of good and evil by redefining the terms to mean something other than what we recognize them to be. It's a cop out.


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## Nicodemus (Jun 19, 2011)

Kudu said:


> God vs Science
> 
> "Let me explain the problem science has with religion."
> 
> ...





If I had been that student, and that fool subjected me to that, when it was over and done with, I would be in jail, and he would be in the hospital, with some lifelong memories to remind him of his transgression. This Christian doesn`t turn the other cheek, and doesn`t really care where the nonbelievers end up. Don`t reckon I`m a good Christian.


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## bullethead (Jun 19, 2011)

Nicodemus said:


> If I had been that student, and that fool subjected me to that, when it was over and done with, I would be in jail, and he would be in the hospital, with some lifelong memories to remind him of his transgression. This Christian doesn`t turn the other cheek, and doesn`t really care where the nonbelievers end up. Don`t reckon I`m a good Christian.



It is a totally bogus story that made it's rounds as an email for years. The "student" in most versions was Albert Einstein, which was just another way of adding a credible person to a bogus story to make it more believable.


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## GONoob (Jun 19, 2011)

I believe that homo sapiens are a evolutionary mistake. Everything we touch we destroy, corrupt, and put the world out of balance. With that said why would god create us.


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## atlashunter (Jun 20, 2011)

Here is another christian email that turned out to not be entirely true.



> None of us know how many more days we have to turn over on the calendar of life.
> I can only imagine...  Heaven as written by a 17 Year Old Boy
> This is excellent and really gets you thinking about what will happen in Heaven.
> 
> ...



As it turns out the kid plagiarized the essay. It seems there are many christians perfectly willing to tell a lie to make themselves and their religion look good.

http://www.breakthechain.org/exclusives/theroom.html


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## Nicodemus (Jun 20, 2011)

Only Bullet answered the questions I asked.  ?


----------



## stringmusic (Jun 20, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> [/COLOR]
> Typical. Someone questions your belief and wants a reasonable explanation and you come back with a sarcastic" I dont have to prove it to you".


I didnt mean it to be sarcastic...... really.




> Thats because you cant prove it or even give a logical explanation. But yet, Im supposed to believe what you believe because you say so? Im supposed to believe that you have a relationship with god and I dont because I question it? Do you realize how crazy that sounds?


I dont think you should believe what I believe because I say so, not at all. I also dont think you need to believe I have a relationship with the Lord, that is not your concern.  



> Dont take my questions personal String, I read just about all your post and enjoy them. As well as all the others on this forum. And how do you select quote posts all nice and neat like you do? I cant figure it out!


Thanks, I love this forum and like to read your post as well as everyone elses, my wife thinks I am addicted to this place.

And to do the quote thing..... at the beginning of the sentence you want to quote, put the word quote inside [       ] and at the end of that sentece put /quote inside [        ]


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## ambush80 (Jun 20, 2011)

Nicodemus said:


> I`m curious about something from you athiests. Ya`ll don`t believe in God. So why do ya`ll wonder, care, worry, or are even curious about what Christians do? Ya`ll don`t believe, remember? And why do some of you try to sway Christians away from their faith?






Nicodemus said:


> Only Bullet answered the questions I asked.  ?



I don't care what religion people practice in their own homes.  It's only when they try to interject their beliefs into the public domain that I take issue.  I try to sway anyone away from a method of making value judgements that relies on superstition as opposed to reason, again, particularly when it influences the public domain.


----------



## HawgJawl (Jun 21, 2011)

Spotlite said:


> Exactly what is the "problem" Please explain.
> 
> I already know that I cant prove, its not my place to prove. All I have to do is tell you about it. Its up to you to decide. I dont have a problem if you dont believe.
> 
> ...



There are more than just two (2) choices; Christianity or atheism.

Do you believe that some followers of other religions have religious "experiences" upon which they "know" their religion is true?


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 21, 2011)

Spotlite said:


> The one thing you or no one else can take away or try to explain away, MY EXPERIENCE. , And I will exclaim that you can only ASSUME what is or isnt.



Definitely, no one can take them away. DEFINITELY, ANYONE can TRY to explain them away. The thing about "blind" faith is that even if someone gave you with 99.9% certainty, probably even 100%, with "proof" and tons of evidence, a non god explanation for these experiences, you'd likely still not believe it and continue with the same faith. That's how engrained it is.. Which for me, is NOT a good thing...


----------



## vowell462 (Jun 21, 2011)

Spotlite said:


> Exactly what is the "problem" Please explain.
> 
> I already know that I cant prove, its not my place to prove. All I have to do is tell you about it. Its up to you to decide. I dont have a problem if you dont believe.
> 
> ...



In your previous statement you said that you KNOW. I say that you dont. I say thats a rather boistrous statement and it creates a problem because in your mind you know but since my mind doesnt think the way yours does you are basically stating that you have knowledge that I dont. If you do, please share.


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## atlashunter (Jun 21, 2011)

Spotlite said:


> Exactly what is the "problem" Please explain.
> 
> I already know that I cant prove, its not my place to prove. All I have to do is tell you about it. Its up to you to decide. I dont have a problem if you dont believe.
> 
> ...



I used to say this very same thing. It's the one thing that nobody can refute, my personal experience. It was also the last refuge of defending my faith in God.


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## ambush80 (Jun 21, 2011)

Spotlite said:


> I re-read it, I still stand with it
> 
> no comment, your entitled to your opinion
> read the blue in the top post. then explain to me the "problem" you spoke of. me believing and you not is not a problem. I KNOW because of my experience, you can only assume because of no experience. Its no different than someone swimming and telling you that the water is cold ouit in the middle, they know because they are in it, you are standing on the bank assuming its not.
> ...



Do you believe people that have seen Bigfoot, Loch Ness Monster, ghosts, black panthers in GA or have been abducted by aliens?  Do you believe people that say they have heard the voice of Allah?

How do you know that the Bible is  not the work of the Devil or a devil and that He is trying to lead you away from Allah or Buddah or Ra or whoever else might be the REAL God?


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## bullethead (Jun 21, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> Do you believe people that have seen Bigfoot, Loch Ness Monster, Ghosts, black panthers in GA or have been abducted by aliens?  Do you believe people that say they have heard the voice of Allah?
> 
> How do you know that the Bible is  not the work of the Devil or a devil and that He is trying to lead you away from Allah or Buddah or Ra or whoever else might be the REAL God?



That's so crazy I might just believe it!


----------



## JFS (Jun 21, 2011)

Spotlite said:


> The one thing you or no one else can take away or try to explain away, MY EXPERIENCE. , And I will exclaim that you can only ASSUME what is or isnt.



Yes, I can only assume that you, Andrea Yates, Deanna Laney and Dena Schlosser all had an experience.    That's not what matters.  It's what actions you take based on that experience that matters to the rest of us.


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## atlashunter (Jun 21, 2011)

Spotlite said:


> why would have to defend it? were you 100% sure of your faith?



I was at one time. But as I challenged my own views to try and figure out if they were true and had other pillars of my faith eroded away the last one remaining that I could always fall back on were my experiences.


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## bullethead (Jun 22, 2011)

They heard and talked to God also, and they killed because he told them to do it.


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## atlashunter (Jun 22, 2011)

Spotlite said:


> So you were not 100% sure of your faith? That still doesnt make God non-existent



That's true. It has no bearing on whether or not there is a god just like not being unsure of bigfoot's existence doesn't make him non-existent. But I came to realize that I didn't really have the evidence to support my belief that I previously thought I did.


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## atlashunter (Jun 22, 2011)

Spotlite said:


> Some folks are toooooo naive



Yeah Yehweh would never tell someone to kill their kid right?


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## bullethead (Jun 22, 2011)

Spotlite said:


> Some folks are toooooo naive



Tell me about it! Are you saying they did not talk to God or not have a relationship with God but expect me to believe that you do?


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## HawgJawl (Jun 22, 2011)

Spotlite said:


> God will test your faith. Theres a reason for it. How would ever know God as a savior if your never lost, or provider if your never without..................the list could go on.
> 
> But did you read where he actually allowed him to sacrifice his son? No. Cherry pick all you want, you dont have to explain anything to me as reasoning you dont or cant believe.Not my problem



Do you believe that God has ever told any man to kill small children?


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## atlashunter (Jun 22, 2011)

Spotlite said:


> God will test your faith. Theres a reason for it. How would ever know God as a savior if your never lost, or provider if your never without..................the list could go on.
> 
> But did you read where he actually allowed him to sacrifice his son? No. Cherry pick all you want, you dont have to explain anything to me as reasoning you dont or cant believe.Not my problem



I think the point of the story is that Abraham did not think this evil deed was something that God wouldn't have commanded and also that he really would have obeyed. What greater test of faith than to see if you'll really do anything he tells you to? Let's not pretend that the god of the OT didn't order people to murder children. Was that evil? If only good things come from God as you claim then what do you make of him commanding Israel to slaughter the children of their enemies or him slaughtering all the egyptian first born or drowning infants and children in the flood? If those acts of murder weren't evil but good by virtue of having his sanction then you must also agree that its good when he commands someone to kill their child and they do it. If those acts are evil then you can't say that only good comes from God. So which is it?


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## atlashunter (Jun 22, 2011)

Spotlite said:


> God has always, and will in the end, destroy the wicked.



Are children and infants wicked?




Spotlite said:


> Read the above. Its obvious you wouldnt understand or dont care to understand, so Im not wasting an hour typing and explaining.
> 
> Bottom line, if your so convinced that there is no God or if there was one, he is so evil..................why are wanting facts, proof, evidence of just the opposite? You made your choice, stick with it



What I think of the bible is of no relevance. We are talking about what you believe. You claim to believe the bible but are making claims that don't square with what the bible says. Perhaps I'm not the only one that doesn't believe it.

So is child murder evil when God commands it or not?


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## HawgJawl (Jun 22, 2011)

Spotlite said:


> God has always, and will in the end, destroy the wicked.



If it was true that God destroys the wicked (here on earth, not after they die old and rich) and it was obvious to a reasonable observer that Christians live longer, more successful, more healthy, less accident-prone lives, what would any of that have to do with killing small children?


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## atlashunter (Jun 22, 2011)

Spotlite said:


> Now thats funny
> 
> For the record, no children and infants are not wicked, but imagine if Hitler, Jim Jones, Charles Manson etc would have been drowned at birth. How many lives would have been saved? God knows things we dont.
> 
> ...



Yeah I figured you would want to run away from this one as quickly as you could.

The Hitlers and Mansons of this world are statistically speaking the exception to the rule. So if we look at the murder of a single child perhaps you can say "well maybe God just took out the next Hitler". Of course one has to wonder why he would take out only some of the Hitlers of this world and not all of them but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this point. The only problem is, it fails to explain the mass murder of children. I mean you might make the claim that killing the pharoh's son was to preemptively kill a tyrant. But to leave the real tyrant pharoh alive and kill the first born of all the other egyptians your explanation just doesn't work. Same for all the times in the OT that God commands Israel to slaughter every woman and child in a city.

And by the way if you want to use this to excuse the murder of even a single child then how do you know that isn't what happened when a woman kills her kid and says God told her to?


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## dawg2 (Jun 22, 2011)

...talk about a hijack.


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## ambush80 (Jun 22, 2011)

dawg2 said:


> ...talk about a hijack.



The conversation blossomed.


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## dawg2 (Jun 22, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> The conversation blossomed.



It doesn't look  like blossom to me...


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## bullethead (Jun 22, 2011)

Spotlite said:


> Good things are of God, bad things are of the devil.
> 
> Compare Jim Jones experience with mine
> 
> In all fairness, you can choose to believe any way you want. Its there for who so ever will. Based on that, I can accept that not every one will believe the way I do. I am perfectly fine and secure with my choice, how about you? Or are you still in that stage of having to prove the way you believe or prove why you dont believe?



Go talk to your pastor with that Good/Bad line of thought, he'll set you straight.


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## ambush80 (Jun 22, 2011)

dawg2 said:


> It doesn't look  like blossom to me...




What lovely colors.


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## JFS (Jun 22, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> And by the way if you want to use this to excuse the murder of even a single child then how do you know that isn't what happened when a woman kills her kid and says God told her to?



We've already got the answer to that.   Subjective interpretation of experience is unassailable as a source of truth:



Spotlite said:


> The one thing you or no one else can take away or try to explain away, MY EXPERIENCE.


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## atlashunter (Jun 22, 2011)

JFS said:


> We've already got the answer to that.   Subjective interpretation of experience is unassailable as a source of truth:



 Good point!


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## bullethead (Jun 27, 2011)

Good Vid.


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## Asath (Jun 27, 2011)

Gone vid.


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## Greaserbilly (Jun 27, 2011)

One cannot prove a negative.
It is impossible.


----------



## emusmacker (Jun 27, 2011)

bigreddwon said:


> Your kidding , right? Money and power for starters.. The church has and always will have _immense power_.  The mass's of people who 'vote the bible' and not whats in their country's best interest is staggering. Bring another one into the 'flock' to be fleeced of money and control their vote. The brainwashed die everyday.Fact. So new ones HAVE to be brought in  (much like tobacco company's) to replace the ones who have passed. Combine the 'convincing' of new adults with the forced _indoctrination_ of the children and it keeps the church flush with cash and political power that can't be ignored. I grew up with 'religion', I _know_ the peer pressure placed on children to shut up and pray.. Personally.



Uhh I don't think the people voted the Bible this last time. We see how that turned out didn't we. But you're probably a democrat because the republicans actually have a few "christian values". thanks man for the wonderful idiot ya'll elected as our president.  Case in point as to why we need to vote the Bible.


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## pbradley (Jun 27, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Yeah Yehweh would never tell someone to kill their kid right?



I'm a little fuzzy on that story - did he bury the kid after cutting his heart out or did he offer the body up as a burnt sacrifice? How did that story end?


----------



## atlashunter (Jun 27, 2011)

pbradley said:


> I'm a little fuzzy on that story - did he bury the kid after cutting his heart out or did he offer the body up as a burnt sacrifice? How did that story end?



If God told you to murder your kid would you make ready to do it and then thank him for his loving ways when he stopped you at the final moment saying "eh never mind, I was just testin' ya"? Too bad that mercy was no where to be found with Jephthah and his daughter.

"At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army against the Ammonites.  And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, "If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph.  I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering." 



    "So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory.  He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to an area near Minnith – twenty towns – and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus Israel subdued the Ammonites.  When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter – his only child – ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy.  When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish.  "My daughter!" he cried out.  "My heart is breaking!  What a tragedy that you came out to greet me. For I have made a vow to the LORD and cannot take it back."  And she said, "Father, you have made a promise to the LORD.  You must do to me what you have promised, for the LORD has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites.  But first let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin."  "You may go," Jephthah said. And he let her go away for two months.  She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children.  When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin.  So it has become a custom in Israel for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah's daughter."   (Judges 11:29-40 NLT)


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## stringmusic (Jun 28, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> If God told you to murder your kid would you make ready to do it and then thank him for his loving ways when he stopped you at the final moment saying "eh never mind, I was just testin' ya"? Too bad that mercy was no where to be found with Jephthah and his daughter.


People around this time were worshipping many different "gods", if it didn't rain, a sacrifice was made to the some "god" as it was thought to have obviously been upset. God was demonstrating He was not like the other "gods" 



> "At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army against the Ammonites.  And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, "If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph.  I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."
> 
> 
> 
> "So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory.  He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to an area near Minnith – twenty towns – and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus Israel subdued the Ammonites.  When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter – his only child – ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy.  When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish.  "My daughter!" he cried out.  "My heart is breaking!  What a tragedy that you came out to greet me. For I have made a vow to the LORD and cannot take it back."  And she said, "Father, you have made a promise to the LORD.  You must do to me what you have promised, for the LORD has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites.  But first let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin."  "You may go," Jephthah said. And he let her go away for two months.  She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children.  When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin.  So it has become a custom in Israel for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah's daughter."   (Judges 11:29-40 NLT)



Seems to have been Jephthah's idea. Yes, the Lord could have stopped him, but he didn't, we are left to our own devices sometimes.


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## pbradley (Jun 28, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> If God told you to murder your kid would you make ready to do it and then thank him for his loving ways when he stopped you at the final moment saying "eh never mind, I was just testin' ya"? Too bad that mercy was no where to be found with Jephthah and his daughter.
> 
> "At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army against the Ammonites.  And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, "If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph.  I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."
> 
> ...



Nice dodge. 

Let's try again:

I'm a little fuzzy on that story - did he bury the kid after cutting his heart out or did he offer the body up as a burnt sacrifice? How did that story end?


----------



## atlashunter (Jun 28, 2011)

Nice dodge yourself pb. Isaac was spared at the last moment. Now it's your turn to answer my question.


----------



## dawg2 (Jun 28, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> What lovely colors.



Actually, they are not.


----------



## pbradley (Jun 28, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Isaac was spared at the last moment.




It's a bit more involved than that. God had promised Abraham waaay back in Genesis 17, when he was still Abram, that he would "multiply" him and make him the father of many nations.

17:6 - And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

God then promised that Isaac would be born to Abraham and Sarah in their old age and that God would continue the covenant with Isaac that he had begun with Abraham:

17:19 - And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thous shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

When God called on Abraham to take Isaac for a sacrifice, no doubt Abraham had in mind the promises of God.

When questioned about the sacrifice by Isaac during the journey, Abraham replied: 

Gen 22:8 - My son, God will provide himself a lamb

Abraham had total and complete faith that God would perform the things He had promised to Abraham.


On a side note, and purely of incidental interest, is the fact that you'll quote scripture, using 375 words in the post above containing the story of Jephthah, when it suits your interest of convicting a God you don't even believe in of a heinous crime.

However, when God didn't actually do the crime you're accusing Him of, as in the case of Isaac's human sacrifice that was not, and never was, not only will you not refer to scripture, but all I get is a terse "Isaac was spared at the last moment." A mere 6 words.

My response to Jephthah will have to wait until I get back from the bank.


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## pbradley (Jun 28, 2011)

pbradley said:


> It's a bit more involved than that. God had promised Abraham waaay back in Genesis 17, when he was still Abram, that he would "multiply" him and make him the father of many nations.
> 
> 17:6 - And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
> 
> ...



Also of interest, from a Christian perspective, is the highlighted text.

God will provide Himself a lamb.

Way back at the founding of the nation of Israel, we see the foreshadowing of the Christ to come.


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## atlashunter (Jun 28, 2011)

pbradley said:


> When God called on Abraham to take Isaac for a sacrifice, no doubt Abraham had in mind the promises of God.
> 
> When questioned about the sacrifice by Isaac during the journey, Abraham replied:
> 
> ...



Right, he had complete and total faith. And he also had no doubts or questions with the idea that his God could fulfill the covenant by way of human sacrifice. The christian interpretation of 22:8 would be that Abraham is foreshadowing the fulfillment of the covenant in the form of sacrificing Jesus Christ, once again a human sacrifice of one's child. I think we are beginning to see a pattern here... What is key morally in this story is not whether or not Isaac lived or died. We already know that the God of the bible is one who accepts human sacrifice for the payment of debts, whether its the debt of sin paid for by christ, or the debt of winning a battle in the case of Jephthah. The key point is that this is a god who has commanded a follower to kill their child. So what believer can then say that Andrea Yates wasn't also commanded?




pbradley said:


> However, when God didn't actually do the crime you're accusing Him of, as in the case of Isaac's human sacrifice that was not, and never was, not only will you not refer to scripture, but all I get is a terse "Isaac was spared at the last moment." A mere 6 words.
> 
> My response to Jephthah will have to wait until I get back from the bank.



Merely commanding it is quite enough. The fact that it was carried out in other cases including the case that forms the very foundation of christianity is just the icing on the cake.


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## stringmusic (Jun 28, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Right, he had complete and total faith. And he also had no doubts or questions with the idea that his God could fulfill the covenant by way of human sacrifice. The christian interpretation of 22:8 would be that Abraham is foreshadowing the fulfillment of the covenant in the form of sacrificing Jesus Christ, once again a human sacrifice of one's child. I think we are beginning to see a pattern here... What is key morally in this story is not whether or not Isaac lived or died. We already know that the God of the bible is one who accepts human sacrifice for the payment of debts, whether its the debt of sin paid for by christ, or the debt of winning a battle in the case of Jephthah. The key point is that this is a god who has commanded a follower to kill their child. So what believer can then say that Andrea Yates wasn't also commanded?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Post #133?


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## atlashunter (Jun 28, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> People around this time were worshipping many different "gods", if it didn't rain, a sacrifice was made to the some "god" as it was thought to have obviously been upset. God was demonstrating He was not like the other "gods"



No he demonstrated that he was just like the other gods in the sense that he ordered a human sacrifice. Had he told Abraham that human sacrifice is a sin and abomination that would be separating himself from the other gods. He didn't do that. He commanded it as a test and at other times he accepted it and he even engaged in it with his own son according to christians.




stringmusic said:


> Seems to have been Jephthah's idea. Yes, the Lord could have stopped him, but he didn't, we are left to our own devices sometimes.



Not only did he not stop him, by granting Jephthah's request he was a willing participant in the bargain.


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## Spotlite (Jun 28, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> I don't care what religion people practice in their own homes.  It's only when they try to interject their beliefs into the public domain that I take issue.



Interesting. When the big debate about Muslims close to Ground Zero was discussed, seems you were all for it


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## ambush80 (Jun 28, 2011)

Spotlite said:


> Interesting. When the big debate about Muslims close to Ground Zero was discussed, seems you were all for it



Muslims, Wiccans, gays, even Christians...if you've got the first and last month's rent, move your stuff in.


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## pbradley (Jun 29, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Right, he had complete and total faith. And he also had no doubts or questions with the idea that his God could fulfill the covenant by way of human sacrifice. The christian interpretation of 22:8 would be that Abraham is foreshadowing the fulfillment of the covenant in the form of sacrificing Jesus Christ, once again a human sacrifice of one's child. I think we are beginning to see a pattern here... What is key morally in this story is not whether or not Isaac lived or died. We already know that the God of the bible is one who accepts human sacrifice for the payment of debts, whether its the debt of sin paid for by christ, or the debt of winning a battle in the case of Jephthah. The key point is that this is a god who has commanded a follower to kill their child. So what believer can then say that Andrea Yates wasn't also commanded?



No sir. 22:8 says what it says:

"God will provide himself a lamb" 

In foreshadowing the coming Messiah, Abraham says that God Himself will provide the sacrifice that God requires. See my expanded comments on the subject below.



atlashunter said:


> Merely commanding it is quite enough. The fact that it was carried out in other cases including the case that forms the very foundation of christianity is just the icing on the cake.



Let's take a closer look at "the case that forms the very foundation of Christianity."

It's not exactly like God dropped by one Tuesday afternoon, grabbed "Bob the human" off the street, slit his throat and drank his blood, then hollered, "Y'all are all saved now! Worship me and thank Ol' Bob, too!"

God offered a path to forgiveness of sin - through Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:18-19:

18-Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19-For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Sure, God required a sacrifice to wash away sin.

Then, He became the very sacrifice he required.

God came down here Himself, was born as a man, lived as a man, was tempted as a man, was betrayed, falsely accused, brutally tortured and beaten as a man, and died the death of a man.

So, yeah, if you want to get really really really technical in the strictest sense of the matter, yes, God required a human sacrifice for the propitiation of man's sins.  Then, He Himself became the sacrifice that He required. 

Genesis 22:8 God will provide himself a lamb


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## atlashunter (Jun 29, 2011)

pbradley said:


> No sir. 22:8 says what it says:
> 
> "God will provide himself a lamb"
> 
> In foreshadowing the coming Messiah, Abraham says that God Himself will provide the sacrifice that God requires. See my expanded comments on the subject below.



Yes which is what I said. We are in agreement on this point. And what form did that sacrifice take?





pbradley said:


> So, yeah, if you want to get really really really technical in the strictest sense of the matter, yes, God required a human sacrifice for the propitiation of man's sins.



Thank you. One more interesting theme to note is that the one getting sacrificed is usually the least deserving, a child that had nothing to do with the pact that resulted in them being burned alive, or as the bible tells it the only sinless human that ever existed in the case of Jesus. Does that somehow enhance the morality of it for you? Or would it be a more moral God who would punish the guilty and spare the innocent?





pbradley said:


> Then, He Himself became the sacrifice that He required.
> 
> Genesis 22:8 God will provide himself a lamb



Oh I think it hits just a bit closer to the story of Abraham than that.

John 3 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Either way, it's still human sacrifice.


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## hunter rich (Jun 30, 2011)

I probably shouldn't jump in w/out reading the other 100 + posts but doesn't this explain the christian interpretation of 22:8 that Abraham is foreshadowing the fulfillment of the covenant in the form of sacrificing Jesus Christ, once again a human sacrifice of one's child.   No sir. 22:8 says what it says:

"God will provide himself a lamb" 

"Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world" in John 1:29 when he sees Jesus.


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## JFS (Jun 30, 2011)

hunter rich said:


> sacrifice of one's child.



I always thought that was an odd way to describe it from a trinitarian POV.


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## pbradley (Jun 30, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Yes which is what I said. We are in agreement on this point. And what form did that sacrifice take?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



fixed it for you.


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## bullethead (Jun 30, 2011)

pbradley said:


> fixed it for you.



Why would you go in and change words that someone else wrote to suit yourself?


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## pbradley (Jun 30, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Why would you go in and change words that someone else wrote to suit yourself?



Because it amuses me.


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## bullethead (Jun 30, 2011)

pbradley said:


> Because it amuses me.



That says a lot.


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## CAL (Jun 30, 2011)

What ever happened to "proving God doesn't exist"?


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## pbradley (Jun 30, 2011)

CAL said:


> What ever happened to "proving God doesn't exist"?



Can't be done, CAL; we've moved on.   Now we (well, ok, not "we" but "some people") are trying to convict God of things He didn't do.


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## pbradley (Jun 30, 2011)

bullethead said:


> That says a lot.



I agree. At the very least, it says I have sense of humor.


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## atlashunter (Jun 30, 2011)

CAL said:


> What ever happened to "proving God doesn't exist"?



It's been filed right between proving leprechauns don't exist and proving Russell's Teapot doesn't exist. Really Cal is this the best you can come up with?


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## CAL (Jun 30, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> It's been filed right between proving leprechauns don't exist and proving Russell's Teapot doesn't exist. Really Cal is this the best you can come up with?



Dadgum yo time atlas!I just don't want to hurt nobodies feelings.Who said leprechauns don't exist?I never said that.Just cause you and ole bullet,ambush and the rest ain't seen none don't mean there ain't none.Ya'll can't prove that God don't exist and ya done gone and jumped on tha Leprechauns.

I'm almost just about ready to give up on you boys and pray fer you a cool spot at least in the old warm place.Never seen nobody what knows so much scripture and is so hard headed too.If there was a prize you guys would win hands down............I really think ya faking though.Can ya'll prove ya ain't faking,huh,can ya?Bet ya can't even prove that!


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## atlashunter (Jun 30, 2011)

Ever heard of Russell's Teapot, Cal?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

I have a question for you. Suppose for a moment that in reality God didn't exist. Just pretend that's the case. Now if he didn't would you be able to prove he didn't? Don't think so. You're highly unlikely to see anyone here claim they can prove any God at all doesn't exist. What we can say is that the bible says things that aren't true and that the evidence for the existence of the God of the bible is nil. That's what we should expect from a man made book, a man made religion, and a man made God. It's the same with every other religion. I could drop quite a list of other God's on here that men have believed in at one point or another in history, none of which you believe in, and none of which you can prove don't exist. Odds are, your God will be added to that list of defunct deities one day.


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## atlashunter (Jun 30, 2011)

CAL said:


> Who said leprechauns don't exist?I never said that.Just cause you and ole bullet,ambush and the rest ain't seen none don't mean there ain't none.Ya'll can't prove that God don't exist and ya done gone and jumped on tha Leprechauns.



You're right. Leprechauns might exist just like God might exist. Until someone can produce sufficient evidence to convince me of their existence I'll remain unconvinced.


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## CAL (Jul 1, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Ever heard of Russell's Teapot, Cal?
> 
> I have a question for you. Suppose for a moment that in reality God didn't exist. Just pretend that's the case. day.



atlas,I can't even pretend that there is no God.That would be comparable to seeing a starving man and telling him to say "I'm not hungry".Just no way I can even think such nonsense.

See the Lord has something for me to do!I don't know what it is but I do know it is something out there.It is quite plane and simple for me to see.Maybe not you or anyone else but it is for me.God has passed on me 3 times I know of and maybe more I don't know of.If I explained the 3 times to you with your unbelieving attitude you would just say that there were other reasons more logical so I will not even try.These are not the only things my Lord has been with me either.There are more,many more.I know without a doubt He was there.His presence was so strong,I could feel Him but couldn't see Him.


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## david w. (Jul 1, 2011)

I believe,Thats all i care about.


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## atlashunter (Jul 1, 2011)

CAL said:


> atlas,I can't even pretend that there is no God.That would be comparable to seeing a starving man and telling him to say "I'm not hungry".Just no way I can even think such nonsense.
> 
> See the Lord has something for me to do!I don't know what it is but I do know it is something out there.It is quite plane and simple for me to see.Maybe not you or anyone else but it is for me.God has passed on me 3 times I know of and maybe more I don't know of.If I explained the 3 times to you with your unbelieving attitude you would just say that there were other reasons more logical so I will not even try.These are not the only things my Lord has been with me either.There are more,many more.I know without a doubt He was there.His presence was so strong,I could feel Him but couldn't see Him.



Doggone Cal, you've sure got some strong faith there. You should check out the thread where we are talking about how the faith as small as a mustard seed is supposed to be able to move mountains and uproot trees. Your brethren could sure use your help over there.

Well since you can't bring yourself to admit the possibility of no God, pretend there is no such thing as the flying spaghetti monster. You don't believe in the FSM _do you_? Now then, prove the FSM doesn't exist. Let's just see you do that!


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## atlashunter (Jul 1, 2011)

david w. said:


> I believe,Thats all i care about.



I once believed, but I cared if my beliefs were true.


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## vowell462 (Jul 15, 2011)

CAL said:


> Dadgum yo time atlas!I just don't want to hurt nobodies feelings.Who said leprechauns don't exist?I never said that.Just cause you and ole bullet,ambush and the rest ain't seen none don't mean there ain't none.Ya'll can't prove that God don't exist and ya done gone and jumped on tha Leprechauns.
> 
> I'm almost just about ready to give up on you boys and pray fer you a cool spot at least in the old warm place.Never seen nobody what knows so much scripture and is so hard headed too.If there was a prize you guys would win hands down............I really think ya faking though.Can ya'll prove ya ain't faking,huh,can ya?Bet ya can't even prove that!


Thats actually pretty funny Cal. A cool spot in the old warm place. That gave me a crackup for the afternoon.


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## CAL (Jul 15, 2011)

Bro.vowell,Just where in the world have ya been?This here thread ain't had er post in it in er while and here you appear.Glad to hear from ya,really am.Was beginning to worry about ya.


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## atlashunter (Jul 16, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Well since you can't bring yourself to admit the possibility of no God, pretend there is no such thing as the flying spaghetti monster. You don't believe in the FSM _do you_? Now then, prove the FSM doesn't exist. Let's just see you do that!



You still working on that proof that the FSM doesn't exist Cal?


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## CAL (Jul 16, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> You still working on that proof that the FSM doesn't exist Cal?



Ain't realy concerned Bro.atlas.


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## atlashunter (Jul 16, 2011)

CAL said:


> Ain't realy concerned Bro.atlas.



Seein as how I can't disprove your god and you can't disprove the FSM I guess that leaves the two of them on equal footing as far as your original argument goes. You have your fairy tales, we have ours.


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## atlashunter (Jul 25, 2011)




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