# Are Christians Commanded to go to Church?



## rjcruiser (Dec 3, 2009)

Well...are they?  Scripture references are nice 


Second question...what constitutes a "church?"


Last question....does the church you currently go to represent the NT church as shown in Acts?


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## CRT (Dec 3, 2009)

We should probably answer question #2 first.

Church is a gathering of believers who, under the leadership of biblical elders and deacons (according to 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1), gather to 1. worship God for who He is and what He has done, 2) exhort, encourage, admonish each other in the Christian life, and 3) go about obeying the Great Commission.

I think the whole NT is evidence that Christians are commanded to be the Church. Paul wrote his letters to churches. Jesus sent His letters to churches (see Revelation). 

Now, I agree that finding a good church is hard given the business-model church of today, but I don't think that is what the churches in the book of Acts looked like. They were probably more like little communities that met in houses or at the river. A building doesn't constitute a church. Neither does a membership roll, general fund account, or building progam. 

The church I go to is a small country church made up of members from a small rural community. In this sense, it looks like the church in Acts, but there are still some of the modern "Churchianity" influences there. I don't agree with everything that goes on there in the way of building programs, committess, etc., but I don't sit back and complain about all that. Instead, like a good atheist on here, I question everything. Why are we doing this? Where in scripture are we commanded to do this? And then I love my fellow brothers and sisters and serve, for that is what I, and every other Christian has been commanded to do.

I would also add that church is not for lost people... Jesus is.

Chruch is not for saved people... Jesus is. 

The Church is for God, thus the reason Jesus said He would build His church and the gates of He11 would not prevail against it.


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## Randy (Dec 3, 2009)

There is no commandment either in the NT or elsewhere in the Bible to attend church.  There are examples of Jesus attend "church" as well as some of his followers of that time  but more often they "gathered together" rather than attended a church.  Personaly I think it is Man who created this "church" that has desires of materialism and need for money.  Imagine how much easier it would be to concentrate on worshiping God if you did not have to attend to all these "church needs."


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## dawg2 (Dec 3, 2009)

Depends on the "church."


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## centerpin fan (Dec 3, 2009)

Randy said:


> There is no commandment either in the NT or elsewhere in the Bible to attend church.




The Bible is not a "how to" manual.  Early Christian writings give great insight into how the churched operated.  For example, here is Chapter LXVII -- "Weekly Worship of the Christians" from Justin Martyr's _First Apology_:

_And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration. _

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-firstapology.html

Additional info can be found in writings like the Didache and the letters of St. Ignatios.  These writings are not Scripture, but they are excellent commentary on the Scriptures.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 3, 2009)

1Cor 11:
19For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you. 
20Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper, 
21for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk. 
22What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you.


1Cor 14:
16Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one who fills the place of the ungifted say the "Amen" at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying? 
17For you are giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not edified. 
18I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all; 
19however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue. 

1Cor 14:
23Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad? 
24But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; 
25the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you. 
26What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation Let all things be done for edification. 


Acts 20:7
On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight.


*There are other scripture also.*


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## thedeacon (Dec 3, 2009)

The Church is the "called out" "The assembly of the saints" It was established in a.d. 33 on the day of pentacost, Acts chapter 2.

The question is not do we have to be a member of the church or attend the services, the question is why would you not want to.

Heb. 10:25 says Forsaking not the assembling of ourselves together as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the day approaching.

The bible "is" a how to manual to the Christian. I don't know what it is to every one else. 

It is very important to be a member of the "body" of christ, each one of us is a part of that body. The body will function without some of the members but it will not be complete.

When you become a Christian you are added to the church. Acts 2:47

If you are saved you have been added to the church, God does it so you don't have a choice.

Jesus said in Matt. 18:20 where two or three are gathered together in my name, I am in the midst of them. Why would you not want to be with Jesus?


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## ddd-shooter (Dec 3, 2009)

I am in the church right now. No man can take me out of the church, and no man can put me in either. Jesus is the head and I am just a member. 
YES we are commanded to MEET with other believers for corporate worship. But you cannot "have church." 
The church is the body of Christ, of which I am and always shall be a member. 
The worship center I attend (church building) is charismatic and falls under apostolic authority, with NT officers. Does that count?


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## BeenHuntn (Dec 3, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> I am in the church right now. No man can take me out of the church, and no man can put me in either. Jesus is the head and I am just a member.
> YES we are commanded to MEET with other believers for corporate worship. But you cannot "have church."
> The church is the body of Christ, of which I am and always shall be a member.
> The worship center I attend (church building) is charismatic and falls under apostolic authority, with NT officers. Does that count?



you have your computer at the church??


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## rjcruiser (Dec 4, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> The worship center I attend (church building) is charismatic and falls under apostolic authority, with NT officers. Does that count?



charismatic's don't count   j/k


I'd agree with most.

Assemblying together is "church."  You don't need a fancy building...you don't need a pipe organ...don't need a bunch of pews.  It is amazing how "traditionalized" church has gotten.

Even with the concept of giving.  In the early church, the church had little to no overhead.  So all the giving was to help those who were in the church and the needy.  And was it monetary?  Not always.

Look at Acts 9.  The only female in the NT to be called a "disciple"....Tabitha.  No monies were given, only her skills as a seamstress making clothing and blankets for those in need.


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## post450 (Dec 4, 2009)

Anyone who can read should understand the assembly of believers is an integral part of Christianity. So I say yes, we are commanded. It never ceases to amaze me how some who refer to themselves as Christians and profess a love for Christ can openly hold the local assemblies in such disdain. Most of us agree that the "church" is comprised of all believers with Jesus himself as the head. Do these people not realize that Jesus Christ instituted and founded "the" church? 

I personally believe it is impossible for a believer to grow or mature without interaction and gathering together with other believers who have different spiritual gifts.
1 Corinthians 12:28 "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."

It also amazing the first century believers would gather under threat of persecution and death, but some in country are either too lazy to bother or don't like the message of the preached word as it offends because of their sins.

Christ intended for church to be integral part of our lives and it typically requires a building and funds to operate if the congregation is of any size. Why is that a problem? Did the Disciples not have monetary funds or the early church? What about Ananias and Sapphira, who had they promised a certain portion to? 

I enjoy having a nice clean comfortable home. Why would I expect a gathering place of believers to be less quality or inferior in some way. Is my home more important than my place of worship? Does my pastor not deserve to be compensated? (I am referring to our local assemblies, not the claim it and name bunch on TV.)

Apparently some think we should hold services in a chicken house and have the pastor live on welfare. If that's the best you can do, so be it.


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## Spotlite (Dec 4, 2009)

Randy said:


> There is no commandment either in the NT or elsewhere in the Bible to attend church.  There are examples of Jesus attend "church" as well as some of his followers of that time  but more often they "gathered together" rather than attended a church.  Personaly I think it is Man who created this "church" that has desires of materialism and need for money.  Imagine how much easier it would be to concentrate on worshiping God if you did not have to attend to all these "church needs."



Although its not listed as a "commandment" like the 10 commandments are. "Forsake not" means just that, forsake not. You can assemble anyplace I guess with those of like faith. But.................where you assemble, is it going to be a place where you can reach and minister to the lost?


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## Randy (Dec 4, 2009)

Post450,
The building is not the problem.  The problem is the church.  Presently my church is in search of a pastor as the last one left becasue he was fooling around on his wife with another members's wife.  My Mother's church is presently in dismay as the Pastor (a yong pastor) is trying to seperate the church into young and old services.  The local BIG Baptist church here is also struggling with this same idea.  My son's pastor just threw him under a bus rather than do what a pastor should have done.  Boy would I like to share this story but the case is not settled yet!

My problem with the church as it is today is the focus is not on God but what members of the church wants.  Now days rather than go hear the Word, the Whole Word, the True Word, churches are more involved in giving that audience of church goers what they want, nice lights and windows, drums,  a youth sermon and an adult sermon, building a place to eat, etc. The church is all broken up and arguing over stuff that does not matter to God.

If the churches in this country really wanted to turn this country around and set it back on the right path, they could buy this country out of the debt it is in.  I know, I hear you saying "why should the church pay off the debt?"  Because christians should care.  We should be leading the way out of this recession not the gooberment.  We should be teaching our congregations how to manage money not teaching them that God wants them to have what ever they want to have.  We should be involved in our government and who is elected.  We should be involved in our schools and not let the gooberment corrupt our kids with their liberalism.  I also hear you saying "who is we?  You are not even a going to church."  Well that is because I have given up on the church as it is today because it has given up on us.    

As an architect out insurers continually tell us not to do churches.  More architects are suied over church work than any other form of design!!!  That is a sad state of affairs.  I have enough issues in my life without having to worry about what some group who should be worshiping God but is more concerned about what color the church is.  I choose not to be a part of these groups because it does not help me in my walk with God, in fact it detract me from it.


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## Randy (Dec 4, 2009)

Spotlite said:


> But.................where you assemble, is it going to be a place where you can reach and minister to the lost?



WHich is all the more reason not to be at a church.  The lost are not in a church.


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## Spotlite (Dec 4, 2009)

Randy said:


> WHich is all the more reason not to be at a church.  The lost are not in a church.



What exactly are you going to compell them to come in to?

At some point, you are suppose to assemble together with those of like faith. Wherever you do that, are you not going to have folks there that your like faith believers have invited to attend?


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## Ronnie T (Dec 4, 2009)

Randy, I think you probably need to be more prudent in selecting the church to attend.
In over 40 years, I've never attended a church like you described.
Don't get me wrong, I've associated with churches that had problems, but that's part of being upon this earth.


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## Randy (Dec 4, 2009)

Spotlite said:


> What exactly are you going to compell them to come in to?
> 
> At some point, you are suppose to assemble together with those of like faith. Wherever you do that, are you not going to have folks there that your like faith believers have invited to attend?



Wouldn't you be assembling as you are talking whereever that is?.  Don't get me wrong as I have said I have no real problem with the church building itself.  It is just that the congregation starts to let the building become more important that the message.


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## ddd-shooter (Dec 4, 2009)

Randy said:


> Post450,
> The building is not the problem.  The problem is the church.  Presently my church is in search of a pastor as the last one left becasue he was fooling around on his wife with another members's wife.  My Mother's church is presently in dismay as the Pastor (a yong pastor) is trying to seperate the church into young and old services.  The local BIG Baptist church here is also struggling with this same idea.  My son's pastor just threw him under a bus rather than do what a pastor should have done.  Boy would I like to share this story but the case is not settled yet!
> 
> My problem with the church as it is today is the focus is not on God but what members of the church wants.  Now days rather than go hear the Word, the Whole Word, the True Word, churches are more involved in giving that audience of church goers what they want, nice lights and windows, drums,  a youth sermon and an adult sermon, building a place to eat, etc. The church is all broken up and arguing over stuff that does not matter to God.
> ...



Imagine that, an imperfect group of people. Isn't that what the Bible says we all are? Don't we all make mistakes? 
The church is not called to fix the world's problems. The purpose of the church is to perfect the body and equip the saints for the work of the ministry. 
WHAT ARE YOU DOING FOR THE BODY OF CHRIST? 
Here is your example: The church pays for the gov't debt. 
Does the gov't learn not to overspend? No. Socialism in church or gov't does not work. The Bible is clear; whoever takes out a debt must pay that debt, and any who borrows too much is a fool. Also, anyone who covers for the debts of a fool is also a fool. The principle is WORK to pay your own way. If the church paid the debt, the gov't would spend its way back there and expect the church to cover it again. 
Then, you would have folks crying foul of "Why did the church pay the gov't debt, but ignored MY debt. I am going to lose my house! What a bunch of hypocrites!"


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## Spotlite (Dec 4, 2009)

Randy said:


> Wouldn't you be assembling as you are talking whereever that is?.  Don't get me wrong as I have said I have no real problem with the church building itself.  It is just that the congregation starts to let the building become more important that the message.



As a group of believers of like faith, you could make that happen. But one person is not a Church body.

Allot of folks have allot of respect for the Church "building" also. Thats where many lives have been changed, kind of sacred, its where they go to escape the world. The Temple was sacred, so should the Sanctuary. 

But I see your point also, if they are cocky proud of the building, they are keeping it sacred for the wrong reason. Probably gonna find more that keep it sacred for the right reason than you are that keep it sacred for the wrong reason.


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## centerpin fan (Dec 4, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Randy, I think you probably need to be more prudent in selecting the church to attend.
> In over 40 years, I've never attended a church like you described.
> Don't get me wrong, I've associated with churches that had problems, but that's part of being upon this earth.



Same here.  No church is perfect, but it is God's plan.


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## rjcruiser (Dec 4, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Randy, I think you probably need to be more prudent in selecting the church to attend.
> In over 40 years, I've never attended a church like you described.
> Don't get me wrong, I've associated with churches that had problems, but that's part of being upon this earth.





centerpin fan said:


> Same here.  No church is perfect, but it is God's plan.



Maybe I'm getting you both wrong, but you both sound extremely arrogant with your admonition.

For instance, I went to the same church for 23 years.  Then I moved to Atlanta area.  Since that move 6 years ago, I've been through 4 churches.  First one split because the Pastor was having multiple affairs.  Second one split because the Pastor couldn't get along with the Deacon's.  Third one split because the Pastor couldn't get along with the Elder's.  Now...the fourth one my family is on....I'm hoping it is going to be alright.  It is more like the model of church given in Acts than any other church I've ever been a part of.  I hope and pray that God's hand will protect it from Satan's attacks.

Randy, I feel your pain.  Church hunting is a difficult process to say the least.  But, it is something that I feel God commands us to do (assemble together).  Because of that, I will obey.


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## rjcruiser (Dec 4, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> The Bible is clear; whoever takes out a debt must pay that debt, and any who borrows too much is a fool. Also, anyone who covers for the debts of a fool is also a fool. The principle is WORK to pay your own way. If the church paid the debt, the gov't would spend its way back there and expect the church to cover it again.



Hmmm..really???

I'm glad that Christ paid my debt.


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## rjcruiser (Dec 4, 2009)

One more interesting fact...


Does anyone know How much $$$ the IMB (Southern Baptist International Missions Board) has in its "Reserve Fund?"


Anyone....Anyone?


$47,500,000

Yup....Forty-Seven Million Five Hundred Thousand dollars.


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## ddd-shooter (Dec 4, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Hmmm..really???
> 
> I'm glad that Christ paid my debt.



Oh come now rj, you know I was speaking from a financial standpoint.


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## rjcruiser (Dec 4, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> Oh come now rj, you know I was speaking from a financial standpoint.



I know....just couldn't help it

But one more thing to add....in the OT, there was the year of Jubilee where people were forgiven debts.

Forgiveness doesn't just have to be for sin.

I will agree with you in the fact that I don't feel that it is the church's responsibility to pay off the national debt.


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## Randy (Dec 4, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> I will agree with you in the fact that I don't feel that it is the church's responsibility to pay off the national debt.


Nor do I I am just saying if the church really wanted to help this country and hopefully put it back on the right track it would get more involved.  This is our christian country.  We can either fix it or head for the wilderness which is where the church appears to be headed.


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## centerpin fan (Dec 4, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Maybe I'm getting you both wrong, but you both sound extremely arrogant with your admonition.



Not my intention.  My comment was in response to this:

_"Don't get me wrong, I've associated with churches that had problems, but that's part of being upon this earth."_

I was just too lazy to delete the rest of the quote.  

I don't think that was Ronnie's intention, either.


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## ddd-shooter (Dec 4, 2009)

Randy said:


> Nor do I I am just saying if the church really wanted to help this country and hopefully put it back on the right track it would get more involved.  This is our christian country.  We can either fix it or head for the wilderness which is where the church appears to be headed.



If you are saved, you are a member of the body (church). What are you doing to put this country on the right track? 

Everyone wants to complain about the lack of action, but no one wants to act.


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## Randy (Dec 4, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> If you are saved, you are a member of the body (church). What are you doing to put this country on the right track?
> 
> Everyone wants to complain about the lack of action, but no one wants to act.



For one, I take care of me and mine (if everybody did that we would have no problem).  Secondly, I give to those in need who have fallen on bad times.............not those who are just worthless.  Thirdly, I did not vote for Obama.


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## Spotlite (Dec 4, 2009)

Randy said:


> For one, I take care of me and mine (if everybody did that we would have no problem).  Secondly, I give to those in need who have fallen on bad times.............not those who are just worthless.  Thirdly, I did not vote for Obama.





BTW, I agree with you this time


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## CRT (Dec 4, 2009)

Randy said:


> For one, I take care of me and mine (if everybody did that we would have no problem).  Secondly, I give to those in need who have fallen on bad times.............not those who are just worthless.  Thirdly, I did not vote for Obama.



So where does your Bible tell you to not care about those who are just worthless? I missed that verse somewhere.


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## Randy (Dec 4, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> So where does your Bible tell you to not care about those who are just worthless? I missed that verse somewhere.


I do as God does.  Turn your back on God and see how much he does for you.  Turn your back on your duties to take care of yourself in our society and see how much I do for you.


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## Israel (Dec 4, 2009)

Randy said:


> Nor do I I am just saying if the church really wanted to help this country and hopefully put it back on the right track it would get more involved.  This is our christian country.  We can either fix it or head for the wilderness which is where the church appears to be headed.



Man will you be surprised to discover what you thought was the heyday of Christ's church here in the states was already exactly where you think it is headed...
And when believers are forced to pay a price for the name of Jesus and his gospel you will see the Church come together in purity and strength.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 4, 2009)

centerpin fan said:


> Not my intention.  My comment was in response to this:
> 
> _"Don't get me wrong, I've associated with churches that had problems, but that's part of being upon this earth."_
> 
> ...



No it wasn't.  
If a church has problems the good brethren of the congregation need to get together, work together, and get things straight.
If churches will choose godly elders, and them lead as servants to Christ and to Christ's church, most problems can be lovingly dealt with.
I've seen my share of problems in church.  But I don't think I've ever had to leave because of a problem.
Who knows, it could happen.

Usually, if it's simply a matter of opinion that causes a problem between me and someone else, I'll give way to their opinion.
If someone's is out of line in the leadership, either they get in line or the church sends them on their way.  But not the church membership running all over the community looking for new homes.
Bad leadership and stewardship does great harm to the church.


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## earl (Dec 4, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> One more interesting fact...
> 
> 
> Does anyone know How much $$$ the IMB (Southern Baptist International Missions Board) has in its "Reserve Fund?"
> ...





Reserve as in case of a rainy day ????????????


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## Israel (Dec 5, 2009)

That believers even have to say things like "the church is not the building"...(which is the truth) shows the state of things today.

Ronnie, you sort of opened a spiritual can of worms in this:

1Cor 11:
_19For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you.
20Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper,
21for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk.
22What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you._


In 11:17 it says this:

1 Corinthians 11: 17 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.

What is Paul saying in the above?
He is saying that sometimes coming together is not for the better, but for the worse.
When we come together...just because we do...does not necessarily accomplish anything for the Lord...and we may actually be the worse for it.
You ask are christians commanded to go to church?
Might not it be better asked if christians are commanded to abide in the Lord?
All of our expressed reasons for doing things mean nothing to God, he doesn't care why we say we do what we do...whether we think and say "we are trying to obey scripture"...or "we are trying to do the right thing"...or we "must" do this or such and such to show ourselves to be true believers.
Will family that loves one another find themselves gathering around their beloved Father's table to enjoy one another and being with him? Do they have to be commanded to?
Does that make every gathering where people sit around and eat as at a restaurant the same thing? Hardly.
But that is precisely what Paul was speaking of, folks who got together, not to care for one another, not to hear from their Father, but a sort of exercise in a simply social meeting, but where each tended only to their own needs.
How we meet will show under whose headship we are meeting.
Can we meet for the worse? Yes we can. 
We can, when we fall into form and rituals that deny the presence of the Lord of liberty.
Yes we can when we censure the Holy Spirit.
Yes we can when we think God has given us any authority to do anything other than hear and speak according to what he is speaking and showing. When we adopt our denominational or even non denominational structures for convenience. We call it expediency, to just help God out so his meeting is a bit more orderly and to our tastes.
When these things become institutionalized, we may come together...and we may say it's even for the Lord's sake...but God ain't stupid.
We are just satisfying our own need to say "Look...I do what God says to do". More vanity.

Are we interested in God's authority in his house? Or do we just want a form that in some ways we believe is similar to what is layed out in scripture?
If so...

Elders are not appointed, nor hired by the congregation amongst whom they labor. They are recognized. 
Elders are just that, men whose maturity and understanding in things spiritual has brought them to a place where they may be given charge for the care of souls entrusted to them. Those "souls" so to speak...are not qualified to decide who should watch over them, any more than children decide who their parents should be. They will generally opt for the ones that let them have all the candy they want and stay up as late as they'd like. And if they have the power to hire, they sure have the power to fire.
Elders cannot be fired...they can be abandoned, left, told to leave, watch someone hijack their beloved flock...but they always recognize those whom God has placed in their care...and it matters not a whit to them whether they are received or not, liked or not, told they are really spiritual and wonderful...or not.
The thing about Elders...or at least should be about elders is that they have come to a place a little deeper in the Lord...and they understand that helping others in is often with great resistance...a faithful elder/bishop/pastor/overseer (and you'll notice Paul never appointed just one, or addressed his epistles to just one...) comes armed with nothing more (nor less) than the word of God to bring about obedience to the faith. And he understands...just as it was difficult for him to hear the hard things of God...it will be no easier for those he ministers to.
Glorying in the cross of Christ whereby one is crucified to the world, and the world crucified to you sounds to some like a very hard...and even bad thing at times. Children often rebel under the very things that are for their exercise to make them strong. It's ok, no big deal...but if you give those same children the authority to discharge you when they like...from that very error in understanding one will begin, must begin, to tailor instruction according to acceptability. 

God cares not a whit if we rail at him, kick, stomp or dig our heels in. He is our Father. If Jesus suffered in going to the cross, he is not amazed that we do too. But he is patient and understanding, even if what Jesus settled in one night in Gethsemane takes us years to come through. 

He knows this...and therefore is not at all apologetic, nor dispassionate about our struggles...because it is not for His sake...but ours.
We are the ones that have been complicit in binding ourselves up in seeking good opinion, acceptance, esteem of other men, chasing after the baubles the liar has blinded us with. 
And likewise allowing rejection and the threat of it, to keep us from standing in what we know is the truth. 

Men will gather together and say "we will put you out" as they did the Lord. Either come into conformity with the way we do things or we'll drag you outside the camp...and then you'll be all alone. That's the threat isn't it...always expulsion, always the fear of being completely, irrevocably, irreversibly...alone.
Our need for fellowship is strong, our need to be part of something larger than ourselves, compelling.
The threat of losing it...often devastating.

2 Timothy 4: 16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.

The elders here will understand the significance of that scripture.
We are not calling men to come to meetings, not calling men to something they can do and point to that says "see, I'm spiritual"
We are calling men to die with their King that they may live to him, and in that living find all the joy, and liberty and peace and love that first gave him strength to walk up that hill with the beam on his shoulders. 
Alone.

Yet not alone, if one has been given eyes to see who keeps stride with him, keeps him past the torn and shredded flesh, whose voice speaks louder than the pain...and which is, ultimately and solely, deliverance from these bodies of death and humiliation.

It is not something to be missed.


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## Inthegarge (Dec 5, 2009)

Surprized no one brought up this verse....." Not Forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is, but exhorting one another and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching"......Heb 10:25........RW


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## THREEJAYS (Dec 5, 2009)

Randy said:


> WHich is all the more reason not to be at a church.  The lost are not in a church.



Maybe you should check out Gods purpose in scripture for preaching.



Randy said:


> For one, I take care of me and mine (if everybody did that we would have no problem).  Secondly, I give to those in need who have fallen on bad times.............not those who are just worthless.  Thirdly, I did not vote for Obama.



I can go along w/ this.

The Bible says all scripture is useful for learning which would also include the O/T.We are told to bring our tithes to the storehouse of God.Thats probably not happening if you aren't attending anywhere.Theres no way to use scripture to support a stance on forsaking the meeting to gether for teaching and preaching and singing songs of praise to GOD.


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## earl (Dec 5, 2009)

Inthegarge said:


> Surprized no one brought up this verse....." Not Forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is, but exhorting one another and so much the more, as ye see the gay approaching"......Heb 10:25........RW





I thought being GAY was a sin .


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## Inthegarge (Dec 5, 2009)

Earl, it would be more useful if that't what it really said....LOL   So much for typing with fat fingers.....RW


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## crackerdave (Dec 5, 2009)

centerpin fan said:


> The Bible is not a "how to" manual.  Early Christian writings give great insight into how the churched operated.  For example, here is Chapter LXVII -- "Weekly Worship of the Christians" from Justin Martyr's _First Apology_:
> 
> _And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration. _
> 
> ...



I disagree- the Bible is _the_ "how-to-manual!"


Church is not a building.


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## centerpin fan (Dec 5, 2009)

crackerdave said:


> I disagree- the Bible is _the_ "how-to-manual!"
> 
> 
> Church is not a building.



The Bible is certainly a "how to live" manual.  I meant that every little detail of how to conduct worship services, etc. is not spelled out in scripture.

I agree Church is not a building.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 5, 2009)

centerpin fan said:


> The Bible is certainly a "how to live" manual.  I meant that every little detail of how to conduct worship services, etc. is not spelled out in scripture.
> I agree Church is not a building.





I expect that Paul and Peter might pass out if they saw the great production we've turns worship and fellowship into.


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## Jeffriesw (Dec 5, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> One more interesting fact...
> 
> 
> Does anyone know How much $$$ the IMB (Southern Baptist International Missions Board) has in its "Reserve Fund?"
> ...




Holy Smokes Batman 
I guess i wont be dropping anything in the plate for the Lottie Moon offering this year, If their sittin on 57 Million, They don't need my puny bit of money.


Heck, If I had their money I would throw mine away...


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## jmharris23 (Dec 5, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> One more interesting fact...
> 
> 
> Does anyone know How much $$$ the IMB (Southern Baptist International Missions Board) has in its "Reserve Fund?"
> ...



I'm in no way saying you're wrong. Just curious where you found the info?


Here is a link to a response to this: 

http://lesliepuryear.blogspot.com/2009/10/our-imb-financial-reserves-truth.html




Thursday, October 29, 2009
Our IMB Financial Reserves: The Truth
In my dealings with SBC agencies, I have had only very good response to any questions I have had. Our IMB is no exception. My dealings with our IMB reveals a missions organization of which all Southern Baptists can be proud. Contrary to what others may think, our IMB is working hard to reach the world for Christ and also be a cost effective organization. For many reasons, our IMB is struggling financially. Currently, they have about sixty days in liquid cash reserves available. This is extraordinarily low for an organization the size of our IMB. Our IMB needs our help.

There have been some people who have raised questions about the financial reserves IMB has on hand. Some of those questions have been raised by anonymous commenters on my blog as well as others. Our IMB is open and honest about its finances. If anyone has a question about IMB finances, contact your regional IMB representative. They will be glad to answer your questions. If you are unsatisfied with the answers from your regional IMB representatives, contact our IMB headquarters in Richmond. I'm certain your questions will be taken seriously and given a great deal of attention.

In a spirit of being completely honest and open to all Southern Baptists regarding the current state of IMB financial reserves, I have been given permission to post the contents of a letter from an IMB financial officer in response to a question from a SBC pastor who cared enough to go to the source. Here is the content of that letter.

    A recent caller to the IMB asked what on the surface appeared to be a rather straightforward question: "What are the total financial reserves of the IMB?" The caller was looking for one number: the total.

    The staff member answering the call could have easily obtained that number by looking at the board’s balance sheet and indicating that number was about $216,000,000.

    There are several problems with the answer to the question related above. The first problem is that the words reserves and investments cannot be used interchangeably. While it is true that reserves would be invested, there will always be investments (in particular short term cash flow investments) that are not reserves.

    The second problem is that it would be most unfortunate if the caller were left with the impression that the IMB had anywhere close to $216 million in reserves, particularly if the caller might be under the impression that "reserves" means funds that are or can be made available for current expenditure without collateral damage to the integrity of the IMB's financial support.

    An even more serious problem would be created if the caller were to mention a $216 million figure to others, who would mention it to others, etc. Thus providing a complete, accurate answer to the "reserves" question is most important. So what is that complete accurate answer?

    1. Contingency Reserve $ 47,500,000
    The SBC requires a Contingency Reserve for the
    IMB, up to 50% of the IMB's annual operating budget.
    That 50% maximum would be $152 million for 2008.

    2. Missionary and Staff Life Insurance Reserve 35,000,000
    The IMB was the first SBC entity to be self insured
    for group term life insurance coverage. This has
    eliminated all of the profit and nearly all of the
    administrative costs from the insurance program.
    GuideStone Financial Resources administers the
    program and manages the investment.

    3. Global Missionary Capital Reserve 26,000,000
    The income from this reserve is used exclusively
    for missionary housing and vehicles.

    4. Missionary Catastrophic Medical Reserve 2,000,000
    The IMB is basically self insured for missionary
    medical costs and maintains this reserve to absorb
    extraordinary costs.

    In addition to reserve funds, there are other funds or sums of money that are committed, restricted or obligated in some way:

    5. Endowment/Gifts Restricted By Donors 34,000,000
    The donors have directed that either the IMB cannot
    spend the principal or the gift is already restricted
    as to its use.


    6. Funds Appropriated to Missions 42,000,000
    Trustees have already approved these funds for
    expenditure and missions are in process of doing so.
    Thus these funds are temporary in nature.

    7. Real Estate Held For Future Use 1,500,000
    The IMB owns as a temporary investment a small office
    building adjacent to the IMB which is held for future
    IMB occupancy.

    8. Post Retirement/Employment Benefits 28,000,000
    The actuarial present value of the IMB's
    post retirement and post employment obligations to
    emeritus missionaries and retired staff totals $143,000,000.
    We are only able to set aside a portion of this obligation.
    This includes board designated and undesignated funds.


    Total (Reserves, Committed, Restricted or Obligated) $216,000,000

    As much as the IMB is dependent on the Cooperative Program and the Lottie Moon Christmas Offering, annual growth in those two vital sources of support have not been sufficient to fund the Lord's blessing through extraordinary growth in new missionaries. The IMB is deeply grateful that this third vital source of support, investment income, has enabled the IMB to say Yes rather than No to those additional hundreds of qualified, approved candidates for missionary appointment.

    No Cooperative Program or Lottie Moon Christmas Offering funds are ever added to IMB reserves.


Perhaps you have noticed I have used the phrase "our IMB." I use this phrase on purpose as a reminder to myself and to all who read this blog that the International Missions Board is truly "our" IMB. I have always supported the administration and the missionaries of our IMB. Personally, I have committed to doubling my Lottie Moon contribution this year. My challenge to everyone is to raise your offering to Lottie Moon by at least 25% over what you gave last year. For the 51% of SBC churches who gave nothing to Lottie Moon last year, I challenge you to contribute to the Lottime Moon Offering by giving at least $10 per member this year. $10 per member is not that much. You can do it.

It is essential that Southern Baptists stand up and support the greatest missions sending agency in the history Christian missions, which is our IMB. Everyday is one day closer to the return of our Lord Jesus Christ. There are still 1.5 billion people who have not heard the gospel of Christ. We have plenty of people called by God to go, but not enough money to send them. The clock is ticking. The ball is in your court. What will you do?
Posted by Les Puryear at 10/29/2009 09:00:00 AM
Labels: IMB


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## leroy (Dec 5, 2009)

> thedeacon said:
> 
> 
> > The question is not do we have to be a member of the church or attend the services, the question is why would you not want to.[/QUOTE
> ...


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## crackerdave (Dec 5, 2009)

centerpin fan said:


> The Bible is certainly a "how to live" manual.  I meant that every little detail of how to conduct worship services, etc. is not spelled out in scripture.
> 
> I agree Church is not a building.



Got it! I misunderstood.


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## rjcruiser (Dec 7, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> No it wasn't.
> If a church has problems the good brethren of the congregation need to get together, work together, and get things straight.
> If churches will choose godly elders, and them lead as servants to Christ and to Christ's church, most problems can be lovingly dealt with.
> I've seen my share of problems in church.  But I don't think I've ever had to leave because of a problem.
> ...



I wish we all lived in the perfect world...but it doesn't always happen this way.  What happens when the Pastor won't go away?  What happens when he sees his time is near, but would rather dig in the heals and put up a fight to save his "livelihood?"

It ain't pretty...and yes, bad leadership and stewardship does do great harm to the church.



earl said:


> Reserve as in case of a rainy day ????????????



Yup.  See note below.



THREEJAYS said:


> Maybe you should check out Gods purpose in scripture for preaching.


 He said Church, not preaching. 




			
				3Jays said:
			
		

> We are told to bring our tithes to the storehouse of God.Thats probably not happening if you aren't attending anywhere.



Where does it say to bring "tithes to the storehouse of God." 

Why can't you give to other Christian causes other than the "Local First ________ church" on the corner?  There are plenty of ways to support the Church without putting money in an offering plate.



jmharris23 said:


> I'm in no way saying you're wrong. Just curious where you found the info?



I heard it from a staff member at a SBC Seminary.  Maybe I mis-heard, but in reading below, I should change it to $47.5M.


    1. Contingency Reserve $ 47,500,000
    The SBC requires a Contingency Reserve for the
    IMB, up to 50% of the IMB's annual operating budget.
    That 50% maximum would be $152 million for 2008.


JM...I'm baffled by this amount.  I understand the need for reserves and rainy day funds, but when your operating expenditures for International missions has come to $304 million for 2008 (based on the 50% max above of $152M), you've gotten too big imho.  Again, this isn't the amount going to missions...this is the amount for all back-office duties to help these missionaries.

Again, I understand the need to make payroll, the staff and resources it takes to run things, but it appears that the SBC has lost sight of the end goal.


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## THREEJAYS (Dec 7, 2009)

[QUOTE=rjcruiser;4356719








Where does it say to bring "tithes to the storehouse of God." 

Why can't you give to other Christian causes other than the "Local First ________ church" on the corner?  There are plenty of ways to support the Church without putting money in an offering plate.


Malachi 3:10 and it also says the whole tithe


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## Ronnie T (Dec 7, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> I wish we all lived in the perfect world...but it doesn't always happen this way.  What happens when the Pastor won't go away?  What happens when he sees his time is near, but would rather dig in the heals and put up a fight to save his "livelihood?"
> 
> It ain't pretty...and yes, bad leadership and stewardship does do great harm to the church.
> 
> ...



Can you imagine the interest that sum of money is making?


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## rjcruiser (Dec 7, 2009)

THREEJAYS said:


> Malachi 3:10 and it also says the whole tithe



I guess we'd disagree on the meaning of tithe here as well as the meaning of storehouse.  

but...I don't want to derail and get on to a debate of "tithing" vs. "grace-giving"

but thanks for the reference  Haven't read in Malachi for a while.


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## THREEJAYS (Dec 7, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> I guess we'd disagree on the meaning of tithe here as well as the meaning of storehouse.
> 
> but...I don't want to derail and get on to a debate of "tithing" vs. "grace-giving"
> 
> but thanks for the reference  Haven't read in Malachi for a while.



Probably  but don't know why, I was lead to that by the spirit


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## rjcruiser (Dec 7, 2009)

THREEJAYS said:


> Probably  but don't know why, I was lead to that by the spirit


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## jmharris23 (Dec 7, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> I heard it from a staff member at a SBC Seminary.  Maybe I mis-heard, but in reading below, I should change it to $47.5M.
> 
> 
> 1. Contingency Reserve $ 47,500,000
> ...




I'm a SBC pastor and I totally agree with you. Just was curious as to where you got the info.


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## rjcruiser (Dec 8, 2009)

jmharris23 said:


> I'm a SBC pastor and I totally agree with you. Just was curious as to where you got the info.



I knew you were a pastor...and had an idea you were part of the SBC....I've been a member of the SBC before...they do a lot of good and there are a lot of good people trying to right the ship.  Just some of the things the SBC does, I'll never understand or support.  I guess a lot of it depends on your local church and pastor as is the case for so many large organizations.

Thanks for keeping my facts honest.  Last thing I want to do is mis-represent the truth.


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## gtparts (Dec 8, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> I heard it from a staff member at a SBC Seminary.  Maybe I mis-heard, but in reading below, I should change it to $47.5M.
> 
> 
> 1. Contingency Reserve $ 47,500,000
> ...



Funny how you think the IMB budgetary policies and totals illustrate something that has gotten too big. With some 5500 foreign missionaries, transportation, support people, support materials (literature, Bibles, equipment, support and training of indigenous peoples, etc.) the costs can only be expressed in numbers that stagger the mind. When you consider the economic fluctuations and the resulting impact on giving, maintaining adequate reserves to underpin our commitment to take the Gospel to the world is essential. The global cost of withdrawing 550 of the 5500 foreign missionaries due to 10% drop in funding would be devastating to the IMB's work in fulfilling the Great Commission. The relationships on which much of the work depends would be lost. Windows of opportunity would close, possibly for decades. Literally billions of people have yet to even hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ. 

Tell me, what is the economic value of a soul, rj?  

The IMB is probably the most efficient organization at getting the Word to the lost. I say probably, because other organizations are far less transparent in their accounting than the IMB. There is a high degree of oversight and accountability to safeguard against hoarding or squandering the funds given to evangelize the world. 
No group I know of does as much, as well, as the IMB does with the funds entrusted to them.

The sad thing is that there are hundreds more trained and willing to go "to the uttermost part of the world" for the sake of Christ, but there is not enough money to send them. The "fields are truly white unto harvest" and there are not enough resources to send all the "harvesters" needed.

Grace and peace to you and yours.

P.S. The situation is similar with the NAMB.


Oh, and here are some more facts that might be of interest direct from the IMB website.




> Field personnel under appointment  (11/10/09)   5,512
> Career/associates/apprentices                                4,340
> 2-yr. ISC/Journeymen/Masters                                1,172
> Field personnel appointed 2008                                     958
> ...


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## rjcruiser (Dec 8, 2009)

gtparts said:


> Funny how you think the IMB budgetary policies and totals illustrate something that has gotten too big. With some 5500 foreign missionaries, transportation, support people, support materials (literature, Bibles, equipment, support and training of indigenous peoples, etc.) the costs can only be expressed in numbers that stagger the mind. When you consider the economic fluctuations and the resulting impact on giving, maintaining adequate reserves to underpin our commitment to take the Gospel to the world is essential. The global cost of withdrawing 550 of the 5500 foreign missionaries due to 10% drop in funding would be devastating to the IMB's work in fulfilling the Great Commission. The relationships on which much of the work depends would be lost. Windows of opportunity would close, possibly for decades. Literally billions of people have yet to even hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
> 
> Tell me, what is the economic value of a soul, rj?
> 
> ...




Sounds like you know a bit about the IMB and the NAMB.  Here's a few questions for you that I've always wondered about.

How much of every dollar given to IMB Missions actually makes it to the Missionary?

How much of every dollar given to NAMB Missions actually makes it to the Missionary?

How much of every dollar given to the Cooperative program goes to Missions?


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## Jeffriesw (Dec 8, 2009)

Swamp Runner said:


> Holy Smokes Batman
> I guess i wont be dropping anything in the plate for the Lottie Moon offering this year, If their sittin on 57 Million, They don't need my puny bit of money.
> 
> 
> Heck, If I had their money I would throw mine away...



I Guess after looking at more info I was mistaken, My apologies.


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## Lowjack (Dec 8, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Well...are they?  Scripture references are nice
> 
> 
> Second question...what constitutes a "church?"
> ...


We are not Commanded to be the Church, we were chosen and bought by the Blood of the Messiah to become his Mystical body here on earth, we are all one body(Church) with different members who do different things.
The Church cannot all be an Eye, or a nose, that is why there are different approaches by different denominations but we all belong to Him.


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