# Why?



## dexrusjak (Sep 25, 2010)

Why would an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, all-loving god create a system in which he would have to take human form to sacrifice himself to himself to offer human beings a way to avoid being punished by himself?  

I really don't get why Christians are so thankful to Jesus for his sacrifice.  Why not just create a system in which his sacrifice was not needed, you know, a system without the whole eternal torture thing?


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## earl (Sep 25, 2010)

Sackcloth and ashes ,hair shirts,Just plain unhappy people who need some one to blame for life's tribulations. A sad lot. This is a prime example. They got so upset with people telling them the emperor had no clothes ,they whined until all but the amen chorus was left. At least now when some of them get banned for not being able to control themselves , they can't blame us. Won't be able to blame  us for the Catholic Protestant wars either. I give it a month and they will be at each others throats . It's the Christian way , you know .  The true Christians will do just fine as always .


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## Ronnie T (Sep 25, 2010)

I don't know!

.


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## dexrusjak (Sep 25, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> I don't know!
> 
> .



Any theories?


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## WTM45 (Sep 25, 2010)

All imaginary stories of legend, written down by a people who have attempted to place themselves above all other people.
Their chosen deity, their select history, their stories.
All later manipulated into a guide-book belief system by Constatine in an attempt to unify and control humanity.


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## WTM45 (Sep 25, 2010)

Others have attempted to do the same thing with their holy books and teachings.
It's not really funny.  It's documented history.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 25, 2010)

dexrusjak said:


> Any theories?



I've never been impressed with other people's simple theories so I should be ashamed to even contemplate one on this subject.
I will say this.  There are indications in the Word that God's realm involves much much more than us and this dirty planet we reside upon.
Of the millions of possibilities, they all are far beyond my understanding.

As our good friend Israel insinuates from time to time, I'm just a microscopic speck in the grand scale of all existance.
I barely remember to get my underdrawers on correctly.


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## gtparts (Sep 25, 2010)

dexrusjak said:


> Why would an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, all-loving god create a system in which he would have to take human form to sacrifice himself to himself to offer human beings a way to avoid being punished by himself?
> 
> I really don't get why Christians are so thankful to Jesus for his sacrifice.  Why not just create a system in which his sacrifice was not needed, you know, a system without the whole eternal torture thing?



Pretty simple, really. He loved us so much, He gave us the ability to make choices independent of His will, knowing full well that we would make wrong choices. He even gave us a heads-up on the consequences, so we could make the right choice. Because the basic idea was to allow us to choose Him and His way and we messed it up, He was already prepared to make it possible for us to be reconciled to Him. Actually, I'm blown away by the fact that He loves me so much that He made the effort to fix my failure. God did what was necessary based on His rules, to draw us back to Him.

Could He have taken a different route? Absolutely! He could have made us perfect and unable to choose at all. The only problem with that solution is that our relationship with Him would not be out of our making a decision. God is pleased by us making the decision to be in relationship with Him according to His desire.


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## SneekEE (Sep 25, 2010)

dexrusjak said:


> Why would an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, all-loving god create a system in which he would have to take human form to sacrifice himself to himself to offer human beings a way to avoid being punished by himself?
> 
> I really don't get why Christians are so thankful to Jesus for his sacrifice.  Why not just create a system in which his sacrifice was not needed, you know, a system without the whole eternal torture thing?



He made all things for the purpose of His glorification. He made only us in His image with His hands.He made us to have a free will to choose to love Him.If we love Him, we will keep His commandments. Adam and Eve chose to sin, God allowed them too. We are His creation, His children. He would have us to love Him as any father would want his children to love him. He would that all would come to Him so that He could spend eternity with His beloved. When man sinned, missed the mark, chose to fail, He sent His Son to succeed where we could not, and providing a way that all who can not keep His commandments can still choose to spend eternity with Him by the actions of the one who did keep His commandments, His only begoten, Jesus Christ. Through Him we can all glorify God, as He did.It is all about glorifying the Father. God gave us the opertunity to fail, so He could show us His goodness.In that He is gloryfied. There is no greaterway too show  love than to give your life for a love one. Even more rare is for someone who gives there life for a enemy. All are born sinners, enemies of God, under His wrath. At the same time, He gave His Sons life for those who hate Him, so they might live. Even if a person does not believe in God, surly theact of someone giving there life so that a guilty man could be set free, is worthy of praise? All have sinned, all are guilty of breaking Gods laws, yet God so loved the world he gave His only beggoten Son. So God did what He did they way He did it to get the most praise. Some say He is just a glory hound, i say He is worthy of all the glory. He would have been justified in letting all perish, yet He chose to save some for His glory. As far as why He didnt create a differant system, well it just comes down to who God is, His nature. He is just, so His justness demands punishment for evil. He is love, so He must hate murder. He loves children, so He must hate abortion. Who He is dictates all He has done.Just for giggles and poots, if you were God, what kind of systen would you have used?


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## doublebrowtine (Sep 26, 2010)

gtparts said:


> Pretty simple, really. He loved us so much, He gave us the ability to make choices independent of His will, knowing full well that we would make wrong choices. He even gave us a heads-up on the consequences, so we could make the right choice. Because the basic idea was to allow us to choose Him and His way and we messed it up, He was already prepared to make it possible for us to be reconciled to Him. Actually, I'm blown away by the fact that He loves me so much that He made the effort to fix my failure. God did what was necessary based on His rules, to draw us back to Him.
> 
> Could He have taken a different route? Absolutely! He could have made us perfect and unable to choose at all. The only problem with that solution is that our relationship with Him would not be out of our making a decision. God is pleased by us making the decision to be in relationship with Him according to His desire.



Amen, Well said brother


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## gtparts (Sep 26, 2010)

drj, here is a link to a blog that may be of more help in answering your question.

http://randycreel.blogspot.com/2010/09/problem-of-evil.html?spref=fb

Hope you give it your attention.

gtparts


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## ambush80 (Sep 26, 2010)

SneekEE said:


> He made all things for the purpose of His glorification. He made only us in His image with His hands.He made us to have a free will to choose to love Him.If we love Him, we will keep His commandments. Adam and Eve chose to sin, God allowed them too. We are His creation, His children. He would have us to love Him as any father would want his children to love him. He would that all would come to Him so that He could spend eternity with His beloved. When man sinned, missed the mark, chose to fail, He sent His Son to succeed where we could not, and providing a way that all who can not keep His commandments can still choose to spend eternity with Him by the actions of the one who did keep His commandments, His only begoten, Jesus Christ. Through Him we can all glorify God, as He did.It is all about glorifying the Father. God gave us the opertunity to fail, so He could show us His goodness.In that He is gloryfied. There is no greaterway too show  love than to give your life for a love one. Even more rare is for someone who gives there life for a enemy. All are born sinners, enemies of God, under His wrath. At the same time, He gave His Sons life for those who hate Him, so they might live. Even if a person does not believe in God, surly theact of someone giving there life so that a guilty man could be set free, is worthy of praise? All have sinned, all are guilty of breaking Gods laws, yet God so loved the world he gave His only beggoten Son. So God did what He did they way He did it to get the most praise. Some say He is just a glory hound, i say He is worthy of all the glory. He would have been justified in letting all perish, yet He chose to save some for His glory. As far as why He didnt create a differant system, well it just comes down to who God is, His nature. He is just, so His justness demands punishment for evil. He is love, so He must hate murder. He loves children, so He must hate abortion. Who He is dictates all He has done.Just for giggles and poots, if you were God, what kind of systen would you have used?



Now this here is exciting stuff!!  I am going to start designing my perfect God and get back to you.  This will be fun.......


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## ambush80 (Sep 26, 2010)

dexrusjak said:


> Why would an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, all-loving god create a system in which he would have to take human form to sacrifice himself to himself to offer human beings a way to avoid being punished by himself?
> 
> I really don't get why Christians are so thankful to Jesus for his sacrifice.  Why not just create a system in which his sacrifice was not needed, you know, a system without the whole eternal torture thing?



It is a bad model.  Was it really that hard of a sacrifice? Some soldiers have jumped on grenades to save the lives of just a few people.  If you were told that a billion people were going to die unless you allow yourself to be crucified would you do it?  I think I would.  As far as torture goes, crucifixion isn't even that bad.  There are some indigenous primitives that REALLY know how to put a prolonged hurting on you.


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## gtparts (Sep 26, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> It is a bad model.  Was it really that hard of a sacrifice? Some soldiers have jumped on grenades to save the lives of just a few people.  If you were told that a billion people were going to die unless you allow yourself to be crucified would you do it?  I think I would.  As far as torture goes, crucifixion isn't even that bad.  There are some indigenous primitives that REALLY know how to put a prolonged hurting on you.



You may have something there, A80, except that to be an acceptable  atoning sacrifice for the souls of men, God requires a spotless, sinless, perfect sacrifice. 

Your comment about the nature of pain is noted, but the real agony of the cross was having His Father turn His face away in the last moments, the Father knowing His only begotten Son was taking the punishment that could satisfy the just penalty of all sin, of all men, for all time.


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## earl (Sep 26, 2010)

Not even two days and the Christians start prostelyzing in a forum that is clearly not intended for that purpose. 
dex , why not take this to the J/C forum where it clearly  belongs.

Dang , I think I need to be a mini mod.


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## ambush80 (Sep 26, 2010)

gtparts said:


> You may have something there, A80, except that to be an acceptable  atoning sacrifice for the souls of men, God requires a spotless, sinless, perfect sacrifice.




So say you and your ancient fairy tale. To make that kind of statement as if were common known fact is nonsense.



gtparts said:


> Your comment about the nature of pain is noted, but the real agony of the cross was having His Father turn His face away in the last moments, the Father knowing His only begotten Son was taking the punishment that could satisfy the just penalty of all sin, of all men, for all time.



Even as a fairy tale this portion of the story is weak.  I love my baby girl.  I love my wife and my friends, but if I or they had to be crucified to save all of humanity (and by "save", I mean from physical suffering) I would make the sacrifice.  What kind of a sicko wouldn't make that kind of a sacrifice.  Not even taking account the ridiculous notion of eternal torment in a lake of fire.  Pfft!


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## jmharris23 (Sep 26, 2010)

earl said:


> Not even two days and the Christians start prostelyzing in a forum that is clearly not intended for that purpose.
> dex , why not take this to the J/C forum where it clearly  belongs.
> 
> Dang , I think I need to be a mini mod.



Earl, maybe you misunderstand the idea of Apologetics. The word means a defense of your belief. By splitting the forums this way, everyone has a place to come and hash it out. This is the place. 

In here you can quote scripture, the Koran, your momma, or anybody else to build your defense.


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## NCHillbilly (Sep 26, 2010)

gtparts said:


> Pretty simple, really. He loved us so much, He gave us the ability to make choices independent of His will, knowing full well that we would make wrong choices. He even gave us a heads-up on the consequences, so we could make the right choice. Because the basic idea was to allow us to choose Him and His way and we messed it up, He was already prepared to make it possible for us to be reconciled to Him. Actually, I'm blown away by the fact that He loves me so much that He made the effort to fix my failure. God did what was necessary based on His rules, to draw us back to Him.
> 
> Could He have taken a different route? Absolutely! He could have made us perfect and unable to choose at all. The only problem with that solution is that our relationship with Him would not be out of our making a decision. God is pleased by us making the decision to be in relationship with Him according to His desire.



If God loves everyone so much, why did he make going to burn eternally in Hel l the default condition of humanity according to the NT? Doesn't seem very loving.


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## ambush80 (Sep 26, 2010)

NCHillbilly said:


> If God loves everyone so much, why did he make going to burn eternally in Hel l the default condition of humanity according to the NT? Doesn't seem very loving.



It's not very loving.


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## earl (Sep 26, 2010)

jmharris23 said:


> Earl, maybe you misunderstand the idea of Apologetics. The word means a defense of your belief. By splitting the forums this way, everyone has a place to come and hash it out. This is the place.
> 
> In here you can quote scripture, the Koran, your momma, or anybody else to build your defense.




I see says the blind man as he picked up his hammer and saw.


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## gtparts (Sep 26, 2010)

NCHillbilly said:


> If God loves everyone so much, why did he make going to burn eternally in Hel l the default condition of humanity according to the NT? Doesn't seem very loving.





Adam and Eve are the responsible party. Things were perfect till they gummed it up. We just have to live with it, much like the threat of thermonuclear bombs. I had nothing to do with that, but it is a reality we must all live with.

Oh, and btw, if A & E hadn't "fouled the nest", some other human would have done so.

True to His character, God provided a way to avoid the eternal consequences of our sin. Now that's love!! A whole lot better than we deserve.


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## ambush80 (Sep 26, 2010)

gtparts said:


> Adam and Eve are the responsible party. Things were perfect till they gummed it up. We just have to live with it, much like the threat of thermonuclear bombs. I had nothing to do with that, but it is a reality we must all live with.
> 
> Oh, and btw, if A & E hadn't "fouled the nest", some other human would have done so.
> 
> True to His character, God provided a way to avoid the eternal consequences of our sin. Now that's love!! A whole lot better than we deserve.



I don't know how to have this conversation if you continue to operate as though the Garden of Eden story from the Bible is factual.


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## gtparts (Sep 26, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> I don't know how to have this conversation if you continue to operate as though the Garden of Eden story from the Bible is factual.



That does pose a problem. I believe it is literal, however, if you see it as allegorical or if you were to only consider the possibility of it expressing principles of spiritual truth, as a parable does, we might have a conversation. Otherwise, I agree. There is not anything for you to gain and a colossal waste of our time to continue. Let me know if you are ever interested, my friend.


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## apoint (Sep 26, 2010)

NCHillbilly said:


> If God loves everyone so much, why did he make going to burn eternally in Hel l the default condition of humanity according to the NT? Doesn't seem very loving.



 God is love and justice. Cant have one without the other.
  For instance, You love your family and want only the best for them[ heaven].
Now there is a man that wants to kill your family. Do you want the killer in the same room with your family?
 Thats why God gives you a choice to be where you want to be. Choose life in heaven or Death with the killers.
 Should Hitler get heaven with the saints?


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## earl (Sep 26, 2010)

apoint said:


> God is love and justice. Cant have one without the other.
> For instance, You love your family and want only the best for them[ heaven].
> Now there is a man that wants to kill your family. Do you want the killer in the same room with your family?
> Thats why God gives you a choice to be where you want to be. Choose life in heaven or Death with the killers.
> Should Hitler get heaven with the saints?




If ,in that last moment of life ,he accepted Jesus Christ , He will indeed be there . And probably seated between you and LJ. Just so God can show YA"LL how great his mercy is.


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## emtguy (Sep 26, 2010)

gtparts said:


> Adam and Eve are the responsible party. Things were perfect till they gummed it up. We just have to live with it, much like the threat of thermonuclear bombs. I had nothing to do with that, but it is a reality we must all live with.
> 
> Oh, and btw, if A & E hadn't "fouled the nest", some other human would have done so.
> 
> True to His character, God provided a way to avoid the eternal consequences of our sin. Now that's love!! A whole lot better than we deserve.



Your wrong! if adam had passed the test im pretty sure that serpent would not have been able to come back in the garden! If Adam would have rebuked the serpent instead of following eve this woulda been a diffrent place...btw eve did not sin! God told Adam not t eat the fruit, not eve! He coulda been a man and stood up to his wife and the serpent.


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## gtparts (Sep 27, 2010)

emtguy said:


> Your wrong! if adam had passed the test im pretty sure that serpent would not have been able to come back in the garden! If Adam would have rebuked the serpent instead of following eve this woulda been a diffrent place...btw eve did not sin! God told Adam not t eat the fruit, not eve! He coulda been a man and stood up to his wife and the serpent.



It's okay. I've been wrong before. Your "pretty sure" comment is utterly convincing. I haven't got the slightest idea where you came up with that bit of wisdom, but, hey, you're the expert.

As for Eve, she knew what God's instruction was regarding the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, yet chose to act contrary to God, but if you say she was sinless, I'm sure you must be right about that also.

One of the great regrets of my life is not having met you earlier in my life. I could have avoided a lot of wrong thinking.

May God bless you according to your gentle teaching, your humble attitude, and your advanced wisdom.


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## apoint (Sep 27, 2010)

earl said:


> If ,in that last moment of life ,he accepted Jesus Christ , He will indeed be there . And probably seated between you and LJ. Just so God can show YA"LL how great his mercy is.



Now your catching on Earl but I doubt that will happen because the seat between me and LJ is reserved for you.


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## apoint (Sep 27, 2010)

emtguy said:


> Your wrong! if adam had passed the test im pretty sure that serpent would not have been able to come back in the garden! If Adam would have rebuked the serpent instead of following eve this woulda been a diffrent place...btw eve did not sin! God told Adam not t eat the fruit, not eve! He coulda been a man and stood up to his wife and the serpent.




 Emtguy your leaving out one important thing.

 God knows the end from the begining and he is always in control  all the time. If Adam or Eve didnt take the apple someone else would have and we would be right where we are anyway.


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## ambush80 (Sep 27, 2010)

dexrusjak said:


> Why would an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, all-loving god create a system in which he would have to take human form to sacrifice himself to himself to offer human beings a way to avoid being punished by himself?
> 
> I really don't get why Christians are so thankful to Jesus for his sacrifice.  Why not just create a system in which his sacrifice was not needed, you know, a system without the whole eternal torture thing?





SneekEE said:


> Just for giggles and poots, if you were God, what kind of systen would you have used?



I think that many of the Gods that people have come up with are too human; jealous, wrathful, petty, etc.  If a God existed like the God of the Bible, prone to mass murder and destruction, I think he would do that kind of stuff more regularly.  I imagine that a God wouldn't even need creatures like us to keep him company.   We would be boring to a God. The ideas of sacrifice and punishment are human ideas that got projected onto the concept of God.

I think that people project too much of their own traits onto the image of God.   Any book that claimed that it was somehow a revelation of God's nature would be doomed to inadequacy and prone to contain the agenda of whoever wrote it.  

My notion of God is that he would be inconceivable, as would any of his motives or methods. He would be so ultimately un-graspable that one may as well not even bother paying him any mind.

I like the passive Gods, like in Eastern religion.


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## emtguy (Sep 27, 2010)

apoint said:


> Emtguy your leaving out one important thing.
> 
> God knows the end from the begining and he is always in control  all the time. If Adam or Eve didnt take the apple someone else would have and we would be right where we are anyway.



With that logic why did God even bother with making man if he knew adam would ruin his creation? I just think adam had to pass the test, rebuke the serpent and banish him forever from the garden and he could not have entered again b/c adam had complete dominion over all the animals...his word was final. God allowed satan to test adam just like he did job. Adam failed. If he woulda rebuked satan he would'nt have been able to enter paradise/garden again to tempt anyone....

and eve did'nt sin! the man was charged with not eating the fruit, not the women...Adam could have stopped the sin and rebuked satan but he did;nt he failed in everyway.


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## ambush80 (Sep 27, 2010)

gtparts said:


> That does pose a problem. I believe it is literal, however, if you see it as allegorical or if you were to only consider the possibility of it expressing principles of spiritual truth, as a parable does, we might have a conversation. Otherwise, I agree. There is not anything for you to gain and a colossal waste of our time to continue. Let me know if you are ever interested, my friend.



The notion that people were somehow different morally before some cosmic event (it's so silly I can't even discuss it in terms of the Forbidden Fruit) has no basis, no precedence and no useful lesson to teach about the nature of man.  

What I gather from you dear, dear people is that you believe that we were in some mythical state of grace at some point and now we are wretched and impure from the day we are born. How do you think that affects your psyche?  I've got enough problems trying to do right by my fellow man and make a living.  I can't imagine waking up each day and start it by thinking "what a piece of poop I am". Nor can I look at my sleeping baby girl and see an essence of evil.  I can't imagine telling a kid that they are born evil. It seems so.......wrong.


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## ambush80 (Sep 27, 2010)

NCHillbilly said:


> If God loves everyone so much, why did he make going to burn eternally in Hel l the default condition of humanity according to the NT? Doesn't seem very loving.



A better question is: "Why was the God of the Bible written so poorly as a character?"


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## apoint (Sep 28, 2010)

emtguy said:


> With that logic why did God even bother with making man if he knew adam would ruin his creation? I just think adam had to pass the test, rebuke the serpent and banish him forever from the garden and he could not have entered again b/c adam had complete dominion over all the animals...his word was final. God allowed satan to test adam just like he did job. Adam failed. If he woulda rebuked satan he would'nt have been able to enter paradise/garden again to tempt anyone....
> 
> and eve did'nt sin! the man was charged with not eating the fruit, not the women...Adam could have stopped the sin and rebuked satan but he did;nt he failed in everyway.



God knew Adam or anyone else would fail because he made us with free will. He gave us free will because he wont drag you into heaven. He wants you to choose him.
 Gods plan of salvation is absolute perfection in every detail, even Him dying for us to prove His love for us.
 There is no greater sacrafice than to lay down your life for your brothers and sisters. It had to be a spotless lamb free of sin, Jesus, to be a sin covering sacrafice.
 Your right when you say Adam failed in everyway. So do we..


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## ambush80 (Sep 28, 2010)

apoint said:


> Emtguy your leaving out one important thing.
> 
> God knows the end from the begining and he is always in control  all the time. If Adam or Eve didnt take the apple someone else would have and we would be right where we are anyway.





apoint said:


> God knew Adam or anyone else would fail because he made us with free will. He gave us free will because he wont drag you into heaven. He wants you to choose him.
> Gods plan of salvation is absolute perfection in every detail, even Him dying for us to prove His love for us.
> There is no greater sacrafice than to lay down your life for your brothers and sisters. It had to be a spotless lamb free of sin, Jesus, to be a sin covering sacrafice.
> Your right when you say Adam failed in everyway. So do we..



Reconcile these two statements.


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## Madman (Sep 28, 2010)

dexrusjak said:


> Why would an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, all-loving god create a system in which he would have to take human form to sacrifice himself to himself to offer human beings a way to avoid being punished by himself?



I believe gt did a pretty good job with this part.



> in which he would have to take human form to sacrifice himself to himself to offer human beings a way to avoid being punished by himself?



Who else can forgive a debt except the one to whom you owe the debt?


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## earl (Sep 28, 2010)

Why would you create a being who's sole purpose was to owe you a debt  ?
Why give some one the ''gift'' of salvation ,onlyto roast them if they should turn down your ''Gift'' ?


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## gordon 2 (Sep 28, 2010)

dexrusjak said:


> Why would an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, all-loving god create a system in which he would have to take human form to sacrifice himself to himself to offer human beings a way to avoid being punished by himself?
> 
> I really don't get why Christians are so thankful to Jesus for his sacrifice.  Why not just create a system in which his sacrifice was not needed, you know, a system without the whole eternal torture thing?



Human beings are predators something like a coyote in that they will eat anything. They are also creators in that they will use and make many things in order to eat and achieve security. They are given, by the ultimate Creator, or the Source, a garden to use according to their needs which is sufficient.

Now here is the problem. Human beings eat their own kind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Fight with their own kind for land and food and resources and pride and bragging rights and for fear. Human beings make beast of burdens of their own kind!!!!!!!!!!!!! and continue to do so to this day. Like the Hebrews, today, they can be you, me, us and like the Slave Owners we can occupy someone's property and person and abuse them today, you, me, us do this. We don't have to, but we do. This is against the creator's will. Remember the garden was sufficient.

The God that christians know is the God of the Hebrews and all the while even today we are still born into the world of the ancient Egyptians--we cause other human beings to be our slaves, we are unjust or are unkind to others etc... We dehumanize others etc...

In Moses and especially Jesus this is overturned on its ear. With Moses slaves are set free to become a great people. With Christ the master becomes the slave with or in the christian practice of grace and grace is given back to the ancient Egyptians in us, so that the garden is again, or has a chance, at peace. This is why Juctice and Truth are so important in our motivations. With Chirst we are forgiven for treating others as if they were animals or birds or just plain dirt or nuisance. Why? This was never the world that God created for us, but it is the one we creat for ourselves and it defines us. This definition in christian terms is "sinners". God is not about imperfection. We and the world are not His marrionettes. What is imperfect is of our creation.  Our Sins are not from God--as his sinless creation which includes us is sufficient.


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## Madman (Sep 28, 2010)

earl said:


> Why would you create a being who's sole purpose was to owe you a debt  ?
> Why give some one the ''gift'' of salvation ,onlyto roast them if they should turn down your ''Gift'' ?



It was a simple question.  "Who else can forgive a debt except the one to whom you owe the debt? "

If you answer we can move on the next part.

"Precept upon precept.........."


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## dexrusjak (Sep 28, 2010)

apoint said:


> God is love and justice. Cant have one without the other.
> For instance, You love your family and want only the best for them[ heaven].
> Now there is a man that wants to kill your family. Do you want the killer in the same room with your family?
> Thats why God gives you a choice to be where you want to be. Choose life in heaven or Death with the killers.
> Should Hitler get heaven with the saints?



Love and justice?  Justice?  Seriously?  Please explain to me what is just about a good person who happens to be born in India and is therefore a Hindu dying and burning forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever with no relief for all of eternity.  What is just about that?  Please fill me in because I just don't get it.

According to Christians, at best, 70% of the Earth's population with burn forever.  Justice?


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## gordon 2 (Sep 28, 2010)

dexrusjak said:


> Love and justice?  Justice?  Seriously?  Please explain to me what is just about a good person who happens to be born in India and is therefore a Hindu dying and burning forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever with no relief for all of eternity.  What is just about that?  Please fill me in because I just don't get it.
> 
> According to Christians, at best, 70% of the Earth's population with burn forever.  Justice?



That is soooo... incorrect!!!!!!!!!! Please state facts, your opinion or notion that you entertain on this does not make it a factual!


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## TTom (Sep 28, 2010)

OK you asked for facts

According to my source the population of the world breaks down by religion as:

Christian---------------------33%
Muslim-----------------------21%
Atheist (non religious)------16%
Hindu------------------------ 14%
Buddhism---------------------6%
Traditional Chineese----------6%

And the list goes on

So His 70% assertation is only a rounding error.

so rounded off correctly the statement to be accurate would be

66% of the earth's population will burn forever.

Or is the the Burn forever aspect you disagree with?


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## apoint (Sep 28, 2010)

dexrusjak said:


> Love and justice?  Justice?  Seriously?  Please explain to me what is just about a good person who happens to be born in India and is therefore a Hindu dying and burning forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever with no relief for all of eternity.  What is just about that?  Please fill me in because I just don't get it.
> 
> According to Christians, at best, 70% of the Earth's population with burn forever.  Justice?



Anyone that has heard Gods [YHWH] word will be held accountable for their choice to choose God or not..  Anyone who has not heard the word of redemption, God will do justly by them also. Justice for God is not a problem because He knows the heart of men.


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## Lowjack (Sep 28, 2010)

earl said:


> If ,in that last moment of life ,he accepted Jesus Christ , He will indeed be there . And probably seated between you and LJ. Just so God can show YA"LL how great his mercy is.



You sure are a fixated person, can't post without mentioning me, Am Flattered, LOL

I hope you are seated with us as well.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 28, 2010)

TTom said:


> OK you asked for facts
> 
> According to my source the population of the world breaks down by religion as:
> 
> ...



No. No. Regards this: Quote: According to Christians, at best, 70% of the Earth's population with burn forever End quote.  Take the vast majority RC and RC church doctrine ( what the church itself states) out of your percentages.

According to a minority of Christians perhaps...but thou shall not make blanket statements about perceptions as if they were rain drops.


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## TTom (Sep 28, 2010)

And still we are left not knowing what your specific objection to the statement is.

Left to trying to figure out what you mean I am left assuming that you as an RC don't believe that all non Christians will burn. 

edited by me to remove the silliness of the software editing to remove profanity

I never see the point argued amongst Christians


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## apoint (Sep 28, 2010)

The latest report is Christianity is the fastest growing religion .
 The muslims and other faiths are seeing the truth and the light.
   It is reported that about 100,000 Chinese per day are being saved. Africa is exploding with converts to Christianity.
 My question to you all living in a christian country is, why do you stay blind? You are surounded by believers and the word, but you fight, yes fight God like He is your enemy?


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## gtparts (Sep 28, 2010)

apoint said:


> Anyone that has heard Gods [YHWH] word will be held accountable for their choice to choose God or not..  Anyone who has not heard the word of redemption, God will do justly by them also. Justice for God is not a problem because He knows the heart of men.



Thanks, apoint. Guess the unfortunate person who has never heard the Gospel, nor had it explained, is way ahead of those who have heard and yet rejected it. At least, that is the way I understand it. God only holds people accountable for what they know. God's creation alone is testimony to the fact that God is. Some find the idea of a just God very comforting. Others find the idea to be rather frightening since they have heard and have still rejected Him.


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## TTom (Sep 28, 2010)

Because the example set by so many of the followers screams hypocrisy and intolerance and hatred.

I'm not fighting God I'm fighting the ignorance done in his name.


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## earl (Sep 28, 2010)

TTom said:


> Because the example set by so many of the followers screams hypocrisy and intolerance and hatred.
> 
> I'm not fighting God I'm fighting the ignorance done in his name.





In that case you will be fighting tooth and nail for the remainder of your days .


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## earl (Sep 28, 2010)

gtparts said:


> Thanks, apoint. Guess the unfortunate person who has never heard the Gospel, nor had it explained, is way ahead of those who have heard and yet rejected it. At least, that is the way I understand it. God only holds people accountable for what they know. God's creation alone is testimony to the fact that God is. Some find the idea of a just God very comforting. Others find the idea to be rather frightening since they have heard and have still rejected Him.





You may have to show me that one in the Bible. I've been in and around Christianity my whole life and I never heard that  if you hadn't heard of the JudeoChristian God you got a hall pass. No salvation = Hades. No exceptions. 

And if that is true ,ya'll should knock off with the missionary gigs. Leave them ignorant and they are good to go . Proselytize and you send them to he!! if they don't believe your personal take on religion.


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## apoint (Sep 28, 2010)

TTom said:


> Because the example set by so many of the followers screams hypocrisy and intolerance and hatred.
> 
> I'm not fighting God I'm fighting the ignorance done in his name.



 Do I understand that you dont believe because of people? 
   Dont look at people for your beliefs, They will always let you down.
 That is like saying, The church is not perfect, so I'm not going..
 When you find a perfect church, dont go to it cause you will ruin it.
 People say the church is full of hypocrites is why I wont go to church. Truth is, the rest of the world is a hypocrite too.

Jesus said in Matthew 9:12  They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13 but go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice; for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


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## apoint (Sep 28, 2010)

earl said:


> You may have to show me that one in the Bible. I've been in and around Christianity my whole life and I never heard that  if you hadn't heard of the JudeoChristian God you got a hall pass. No salvation = Hades. No exceptions.
> 
> And if that is true ,ya'll should knock off with the missionary gigs. Leave them ignorant and they are good to go . Proselytize and you send them to he!! if they don't believe your personal take on religion.


 Glad I can teach you new truths.
God commands us to spread His Word to the ends of the earth. 
 He wants you to make a choice, that is the whole purpose.


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## mickbear (Sep 28, 2010)

apoint said:


> The latest report is Christianity is the fastest growing religion .
> The muslims and other faiths are seeing the truth and the light.
> It is reported that about 100,000 Chinese per day are being saved. Africa is exploding with converts to Christianity.
> My question to you all living in a christian country is, why do you stay blind? You are surounded by believers and the word, but you fight, yes fight God like He is your enemy?


could you site your source for this information?


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## apoint (Sep 28, 2010)

No need, you wont believe it and my efforts will be for nothing.


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## earl (Sep 28, 2010)

apoint said:


> Glad I can teach you new truths.
> God commands us to spread His Word to the ends of the earth.
> He wants you to make a choice, that is the whole purpose.





I don't see where you taught me any truth , opinion maybe .


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## emtguy (Sep 28, 2010)

TTom said:


> OK you asked for facts
> 
> According to my source the population of the world breaks down by religion as:
> 
> ...



i agree with you on this and im going even farther...id dare say 70 percent of so called christians wont make it to heaven either!
Out of a church of 400 a 6 a.m prayer was called and 30 showed up! If God can't even get a man to prayer meeting how he going to get him to heaven?


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## apoint (Sep 28, 2010)

emtguy said:


> i agree with you on this and im going even farther...id dare say 70 percent of so called christians wont make it to heaven either!
> Out of a church of 400 a 6 a.m prayer was called and 30 showed up! If God can't even get a man to prayer meeting how he going to get him to heaven?



 I think you just answered your own salvation.


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## TTom (Sep 29, 2010)

No A point you read what you want to read into what I said, you really should read just what I write instead of what you want me to have said.

I said I reject the followers religion not God how much simpler before it can't be misread and taken out of context

I reject CHRISTIAN RELIGION as it is practiced and followed by the masses. The Christian religion is not God. The Bible is not God. 

I find the followers so lacking in understanding and actual love for their fellow man that I reject their false claim that they seek to be Christ like.

I'll be called blasphemous for this but I reject that the Bible has remained true and unspoiled in the various translations and interpretations. Books added and subtracted based on church politics is firmly established as historic fact. 

I'm not as you charge looking to others to find my beliefs I've sorted them myself without need for a preacher to tell me how to think or how to worship.


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## apoint (Sep 29, 2010)

TTom said:


> No A point you read what you want to read into what I said, you really should read just what I write instead of what you want me to have said.
> 
> I said I reject the followers religion not God how much simpler before it can't be misread and taken out of context
> 
> ...



So you dont need the Bible or a preacher or anybody else to tell you what God is. So make it up as you go type thing?


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## dexrusjak (Sep 29, 2010)

Hypothetical situation...

1. Man living in Georgia present day.  Good family man, hard-working, loving father, enjoys hunting and fishing, law-abiding citizen, generous, always ready to lend a helping hand.  This man has been to church, heard all about Jesus and salvation, but just really never comes to the point of "getting saved."  He doesn't feel the need to.  He's happy with his life and finds true joy in his family and his work.  He dies an old man, surrounded by his children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren.

2. Man living in Amazon Jungle one thousand years ago.  This man belongs to a tribe of cannibals.  He and his relatives stalk other tribes, raid them, kill the men, women, and children in the tribes, cook their corpses and eat them.  This is how he feeds his family.  This man has never heard of Jesus, yet from the beauty of his surroundings, he knows that there must be some type of deity out there somewhere.  This man lives his life killing and eating humans.  He is ruthless; he shows no mercy, even for children.  One night, just as this man is about use a stone to crush the head of a child, he is attacked from behind and violently and brutally killed.

According to your Christian beliefs, where to these two men spend eternity?


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## gordon 2 (Sep 29, 2010)

TTom said:


> OK you asked for facts
> 
> According to my source the population of the world breaks down by religion as:
> 
> ...



This is my objection. The 70% is incorrect.  There are over a billion catholics in the world. I would take them out of the percentage. Although some catholics, as individuals, do believe as you state. As a church however, their belief is that being non christians is not an certain course to being lost--or-- Burning Forever as you state.


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## TTom (Sep 29, 2010)

@ A Point

Make it up???? 
Well not exactly but about as close as you are likely to understand.

I see the preacher as substituting his experience of what makes for a good relationship with God for mine. What makes the preacher better able to tell me what God wants than my own soul? Wasn't this all part of the whole Protestant Reformation? I mean I take it a bit farther than Martin Luther but the idea that I need some sort of preacher to understand the will of god?

Bible, as I said the Bible has been perverted by mans politics over the centuries. There are nuggets of truth in there mixed with passages meant to control the masses. I take what  my soul is convinced is real and leave the rest that my soul tells me is man's corruption of God's will.

I reject entirely the passages that claim only one way to God, as man's hubris. recognizing completely that I am displaying a level of hubris myself when I do that.


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## TTom (Sep 29, 2010)

@ Gordon 2

The 66% of the world that is non christian is correct as a figure. I mentioned the rounding error of 70%. nothing in what you have siad changes the fact that 66-70% of the world's population is non-christian.

No you state that it is a minority of Christians that hold with the idea that we are going to burn (to end up elsewhere than heaven)

Well I wish that those who hold the opposing view would make themselves a bit more known in the debates here and elsewhere. Because the loud and long cries that we non-christians are going to burn, drown you guys out.

You're still part of the 33%, you just represent a part of that 33% that may not believe non-christians will burn.


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## mickbear (Sep 29, 2010)

apoint said:


> No need, you wont believe it and my efforts will be for nothing.


just how i thought you would respond.


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## mickbear (Sep 29, 2010)

apoint said:


> The latest report is Christianity is the fastest growing religion .
> The muslims and other faiths are seeing the truth and the light.
> It is reported that about 100,000 Chinese per day are being saved. Africa is exploding with converts to Christianity.
> My question to you all living in a christian country is, why do you stay blind? You are surounded by believers and the word, but you fight, yes fight God like He is your enemy?


check my math, i might be wrong on this but, from what your saying 36,500,000 chinese are being saved each year?wow thats a lot of folks.so in the last 10 years 3,650,000,000 have been saved.thats most of the country.great work by somebody.


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## ambush80 (Sep 29, 2010)

TTom said:


> @ A Point
> 
> Make it up????
> Well not exactly but about as close as you are likely to understand.
> ...



You sound terribly sensible.  Why, if you don't mind me asking, have you chosen to worship the God of Abraham as opposed to Vishnu?


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## TTom (Sep 29, 2010)

Ambush I worship GOD, I have no aversion to calling God by any of over a thousand names. I use God and the God of Abraham most often because it is the most familiar.

Vishnu, Ganesha, Shiva, Zeus, Apollo, Wodin, The Great Spirit,  all names for aspects of God, broken down so that the enormity of what God is and can be, might in some small way be put into words that hint at the totality of God.

edited to add

BTW you can find a bit more about me and my Spiritual Universalist perspective in the Other Faiths section under the who's here thread.


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## ambush80 (Sep 29, 2010)

TTom said:


> Ambush I worship GOD, I have no aversion to calling God by any of over a thousand names. I use God and the God of Abraham most often because it is the most familiar.
> 
> Vishnu, Ganesha, Shiva, Zeus, Apollo, Wodin, The Great Spirit,  all names for aspects of God, broken down so that the enormity of what God is and can be, might in some small way be put into words that hint at the totality of God.



You left out Allah.  Was that on purpose or to be politically sensitive considering the company?

I can't see how anyone can live passed 30 and not realize that the concept of God MUST be bigger than any one doctrine could possibly contain.


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## TTom (Sep 29, 2010)

LOL simply oversite,

If I made an exhaustive list of the names of God, we could be here a year.


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## ambush80 (Sep 29, 2010)

ttom said:


> lol simply oversite,
> 
> if i made an exhaustive list of the names of god, we could be here a year.



10-4.


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## apoint (Sep 30, 2010)

TTom said:


> @ A Point
> 
> 
> 
> I reject entirely the passages that claim only one way to God, as man's hubris. recognizing completely that I am displaying a level of hubris myself when I do that.



Why would you reject the "one way to God"?
 There is only one creator God and only his way to salvation, not your way. The only way to your redemption you wont except.


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## TTom (Sep 30, 2010)

Why would you ask a question, answered directly in the statement you quoted?

I reject it as an example of man's hubris, something men seeking political power put in.


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## apoint (Sep 30, 2010)

TTom said:


> Why would you ask a question, answered directly in the statement you quoted?
> 
> I reject it as an example of man's hubris, something men seeking political power put in.



 If man wrote the bible you would be correct. God inspired the writings of His word. I'm sure you will never except 
 God inspired, so there is no common ground to find reasoning . You win from your own perspective, not mine.


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## Six million dollar ham (Sep 30, 2010)

apoint said:


> If man wrote the bible you would be correct. God inspired the writings of His word. I'm sure you will never except
> God inspired, so there is no common ground to find reasoning . You win from your own perspective, not mine.



Man did not write the bible?


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## TTom (Oct 1, 2010)

Apoint

I buy inspired in many ways. What I can't buy into is infallible and uncorrupted by man. Too many revisions, books added, subtracted, considered, and then if not accepted sometimes burned. 

But you're right that specific detail makes agreement on anything other than the disagreement impossible.

I am rejecting something you accept as an article of faith.

That leaves little to no room for common ground.


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## apoint (Oct 1, 2010)

TTom said:


> Apoint
> 
> I buy inspired in many ways. What I can't buy into is infallible and uncorrupted by man. Too many revisions, books added, subtracted, considered, and then if not accepted sometimes burned.
> 
> ...



 Your an honest and reasonable man Tom and I believe you seek the truth instead of trying to destroy it.
  All the bible prophesy has come true and will do so.
 All the feast of the Lord point to Jesus. If you look at Passover you will see the picture of Jesus only salvation.
 Passover, the lambs blood was put over the door so the death angle would pass by. Not a bone of the lamb was broken or the sacrifice would be void. He who did not have the lambs blood, the first born died.
 Jesus was crucified on passover,  in the ground on unleavened bread, raised on first fruits. 
 No way did this happen accidental.
Passover and all of the feast of the Lord speak of Jesus.
  Its all Gods perfect handy work that no man could do.
  Its all Gods plan for salvation for those that can see..


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## ambush80 (Oct 1, 2010)

apoint said:


> Your an honest and reasonable man Tom and I believe you seek the truth instead of trying to destroy it.
> All the bible prophesy has come true and will do so.
> All the feast of the Lord point to Jesus. If you look at Passover you will see the picture of Jesus only salvation.
> Passover, the lambs blood was put over the door so the death angle would pass by. Not a bone of the lamb was broken or the sacrifice would be void. He who did not have the lambs blood, the first born died.
> ...



Bubble, bubble, toil and trouble.....ashes to ashes, we all fall down.


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## dexrusjak (Oct 1, 2010)

apoint said:


> Your an honest and reasonable man Tom and I believe you seek the truth instead of trying to destroy it.
> All the bible prophesy has come true and will do so.
> All the feast of the Lord point to Jesus. If you look at Passover you will see the picture of Jesus only salvation.
> Passover, the lambs blood was put over the door so the death angle would pass by. Not a bone of the lamb was broken or the sacrifice would be void. He who did not have the lambs blood, the first born died. Jesus was crucified on passover,  in the ground on unleavened bread, raised on first fruits.
> ...



How did they die?


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## apoint (Oct 1, 2010)

dexrusjak said:


> How did they die?



Im sure you know. Just ask Phd Bart Ehrman, who knows all things. He has every degree known to man that even surpasses Gods . Phd. Post hole digger.


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## mickbear (Oct 1, 2010)

apoint said:


> If man wrote the bible you would be correct.


man did write the bible.the bible was written over hunderds of years by who knows how many different people and changed through out hisyory by everybody and their brother from the cathloic chourch to new wave hippies.if i remember right wasn't the original bible translated by the greeks?and from what i remember about them they were some pretty good story tellers.


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## apoint (Oct 1, 2010)

mickbear said:


> man did write the bible.the bible was written over hunderds of years by who knows how many different people and changed through out hisyory by everybody and their brother from the cathloic chourch to new wave hippies.if i remember right wasn't the original bible translated by the greeks?and from what i remember about them they were some pretty good story tellers.



 I like your signature.


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## apoint (Oct 1, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> Bubble, bubble, toil and trouble.....ashes to ashes, we all fall down.



 Excellent quote. I think you are catching on, May be hope for you yet.


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## dexrusjak (Oct 1, 2010)

apoint said:


> Im sure you know. Just ask Phd Bart Ehrman, who knows all things. He has every degree known to man that even surpasses Gods . Phd. Post hole digger.



Seems like you're dodging a simple question, so I'll ask again.  How did they die?


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## apoint (Oct 1, 2010)

dexrusjak said:


> Seems like you're dodging a simple question, so I'll ask again.  How did they die?


 My answer is still the same. You ask what you already know.


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## mickbear (Oct 1, 2010)

apoint said:


> I like your signature.



thank you
  it's a quote from an ol guy named Rancid Crabbtree ,famous explorer .


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## Achilles Return (Oct 1, 2010)

apoint said:


> . He who did not have the lambs blood, the first born died.



The gods that personally kill children are my favorite.


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## apoint (Oct 1, 2010)

Achilles Return said:


> The gods that personally kill children are my favorite.



 It dont say children. A first born could be 50 years old..
 Even though younger died also.  The 10 plagues started easy and got worse till it came to this. Its Gods justice for not listening to him. They had been slaves for 400 yrs, where is that justice?


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## Achilles Return (Oct 1, 2010)

apoint said:


> It dont say children. A first born could be 50 years old..
> Even though younger died also.  The 10 plagues started easy and got worse till it came to this. Its Gods justice for not listening to him. They had been slaves for 400 yrs, where is that justice?



There you go about "justice" again. Sorry, I don't see the justice in killing a country's firstborns because their king won't listen to my prophet. That is hitler-level immoral, in my opinion.


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## dexrusjak (Oct 1, 2010)

apoint said:


> It dont say children. A first born could be 50 years old..
> Even though younger died also.  The 10 plagues started easy and got worse till it came to this. Its Gods justice for not listening to him. They had been slaves for 400 yrs, where is that justice?



What did the little children who god killed have to do with that?


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## apoint (Oct 1, 2010)

Achilles Return said:


> There you go about "justice" again. Sorry, I don't see the justice in killing a country's firstborns because their king won't listen to my prophet. That is hitler-level immoral, in my opinion.



Actually that King[ Pharaoh] was like a Hitler and deserved  death.
 The first born would have been the oldest in the family not the youngest. The oldest first born in my family is 63 yrs old. Good thing your not God or we would all still be in bondage.


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## apoint (Oct 1, 2010)

dexrusjak said:


> What did the little children who god killed have to do with that?



 Once again, I refer you to your god for that answer ,
 Bart Erhman, Post hole digger. He is all knowing, you know?


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## dexrusjak (Oct 1, 2010)

apoint said:


> Once again, I refer you to your god for that answer ,
> Bart Erhman, Post hole digger. He is all knowing, you know?



Nah, I don't think he's all-knowing.  I just think he knows more than I do.  That's why I read his books, to try and learn something new.  

Besides, Ehrman is primarily a New Testament scholar.  I've never read anything of his on the Old Testament so I don't know if I'd be able to find the answer to my question in any of his writings or not.  I'll check though.  Thanks.


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## CAL (Oct 1, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> You sure are a fixated person, can't post without mentioning me, Am Flattered, LOL
> 
> I hope you are seated with us as well.




Mr.Lowjack,Don't hold ya breath.I don't think ya got to worry about that!If I read my Bible correctly,unless they(unbelievers) are like the thief on the cross!


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## rbrooks449 (Oct 1, 2010)

He gives us a choice.. you just have to be man enough to choose wisely!


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## Achilles Return (Oct 2, 2010)

apoint said:


> Actually that King[ Pharaoh] was like a Hitler and deserved  death.
> The first born would have been the oldest in the family not the youngest. The oldest first born in my family is 63 yrs old. Good thing your not God or we would all still be in bondage.



Does twisting your "good" book until the stories are meaningless ever get old? God killed an entire population of firstborns because of the actions of one ruler. Whether or not they were 2 years old or 40 - this is morally despicable.  

Fortunately for you, there's not any archeological evidence that the "exodus" even happened. It is extremely doubtful that the jews were ever egyptian slaves.


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## Achilles Return (Oct 2, 2010)

rbrooks449 said:


> He gives us a choice.. you just have to be man enough to choose wisely!



What kind of sick and twisted game is this? Guess wisely, your eternal afterlife rests on it?


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## apoint (Oct 2, 2010)

Achilles Return said:


> Does twisting your "good" book until the stories are meaningless ever get old? God killed an entire population of firstborns because of the actions of one ruler. Whether or not they were 2 years old or 40 - this is morally despicable.
> 
> Fortunately for you, there's not any archeological evidence that the "exodus" even happened. It is extremely doubtful that the jews were ever egyptian slaves.



 You dont know your history.
 The pharoh first put the Jews into 400 years of slavery, then later killed all the jewish babies.This is why Moses as a baby was put in a floating basket to escape death, and was found later by the queen.   Looks to me God was very just in his 10 plagues. Pharoh killed Jewish babies, God killed the oldest in the family, and God wouldnt have gone that far if pharoh would have let his people go sooner.

 enough said..


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## earl (Oct 2, 2010)

God couldn't over power a simple pharaoh ,so he killed a multitude of people . Makes perfect justifiable sense to me.


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## apoint (Oct 2, 2010)

Glad you got it all figured out Earl. Sounds like God was in control to me. He always has the Jews having a part in their own redemption. What kind of spoiled brats would He be raising if He did it all for them? Now that would be sick...


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## Israel (Oct 3, 2010)

There is something God didn't want us to miss about him, something which he loves to give, that gives him such joy in sharing, that is overwhelmingly delightful in every way when ministered...he just couldn't bear to make us apart from knowing the experience of that.
He didn't want us to be only half as deliriously happy as we could be. He wants us perfect.


Luk 6:36  Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. 


Rom 11:32  For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 

Great to receive...even better to give.


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## tomtlb66 (Oct 3, 2010)

Well, I believe the only sacrifice for all the sin in the world and the sin that would follow, would have to be pure, sinless and holy. That sacrifice could only be Jesus. He is sinless, pure, holy and perfect. I also believe He did all of it out of love. He loves all of us so much that He gave His life away for all of us. We just have to recieve and believe it.


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## Thanatos (Oct 3, 2010)

Why not?


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