# Limited or Unlimited atonement ?



## Lowjack (Mar 7, 2009)

Which one do you  believe in.


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## Dixie Dawg (Mar 7, 2009)

According to the law, sacrifices were only for unintentional sins.  If you sinned on purpose, there was no sacrifice, only repentance.  I suppose you can take that however you wish.


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## earl (Mar 7, 2009)

Isn't that like forgiveness or conditional forgiveness ?


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## gemcgrew (Mar 7, 2009)

Limited


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## SBG (Mar 7, 2009)

Unlimited


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## Lowjack (Mar 7, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> According to the law, sacrifices were only for unintentional sins.  If you sinned on purpose, there was no sacrifice, only repentance.  I suppose you can take that however you wish.


Where is that Law found ?


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## Israel (Mar 7, 2009)

Definitely limited.
To every son of Adam.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 7, 2009)

Israel said:


> Definitely limited.
> To every son of Adam.



Which Adam?


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## celticfisherman (Mar 7, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Where is that Law found ?



Good question. Not familiar with that one at all.



Israel said:


> Definitely limited.
> To every son of Adam.



So Christ's sacrifice was for every sin committed? Even by those who do not nor will they repent?


If you can't tell... Limited atonement.


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## Dixie Dawg (Mar 7, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Where is that Law found ?



Num 15:27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering. 


 Num 15:28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. 


 Num 15:29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, [both for] him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them. 


 Num 15:30 But the soul that doeth [ought] presumptuously, [whether he be] born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 


 Num 15:31 Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity [shall be] upon him. 



This was apparently understood by your early Christians as well....


Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,


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## celticfisherman (Mar 7, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> This was apparently understood by your early Christians as well....
> 
> 
> Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,



The sacrifice is no longer required because of Jesus' sacrifice.

The OT still required repentance even thru ignorance. Your verses state that.


And also the verses before state that the community as a whole can sin unintentionally of intentionally and must repent as a whole. Group judgment.

 22 " 'Now if you unintentionally fail to keep any of these commands the LORD gave Moses- 23 any of the LORD's commands to you through him, from the day the LORD gave them and continuing through the generations to come- 24 and if this is done unintentionally without the community being aware of it, then the whole community is to offer a young bull for a burnt offering as an aroma pleasing to the LORD, along with its prescribed grain offering and drink offering, and a male goat for a sin offering. 25 The priest is to make atonement for the whole Israelite community, and they will be forgiven, for it was not intentional and they have brought to the LORD for their wrong an offering made by fire and a sin offering. 26 The whole Israelite community and the aliens living among them will be forgiven, because all the people were involved in the unintentional wrong.


Also the sin offerings:

Leviticus:

Day of Atonement

 26 The LORD said to Moses, 27 "The tenth day of this seventh month is the Day of Atonement. Hold a sacred assembly and deny yourselves, [d] and present an offering made to the LORD by fire. 28 Do no work on that day, because it is the Day of Atonement, when atonement is made for you before the LORD your God. 29 Anyone who does not deny himself on that day must be cut off from his people. 30 I will destroy from among his people anyone who does any work on that day. 31 You shall do no work at all. This is to be a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, wherever you live. 32 It is a sabbath of rest for you, and you must deny yourselves. From the evening of the ninth day of the month until the following evening you are to observe your sabbath."

aâ‹…toneâ‹…ment
–noun
1.	satisfaction or reparation for a wrong or injury; amends.
2.	(sometimes initial capital letter) Theology. the doctrine concerning the reconciliation of God and humankind, esp. as accomplished through the life, suffering, and death of Christ.
3.	Christian Science. the experience of humankind's unity with God exemplified by Jesus Christ.
4.	Archaic. reconciliation; agreement.


Why else do we need atonement? Sin. That separates us from God.


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## Dixie Dawg (Mar 7, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> The sacrifice is no longer required because of Jesus' sacrifice.



That is not what the verse says at all. Read it again. 



> The OT still required repentance even thru ignorance. Your verses state that.



Of course.  I never stated otherwise.




> And also the verses before state that the community as a whole can sin unintentionally of intentionally and must repent as a whole. Group judgment.



Please show me anywhere in these verses that you quoted where it says anything about INTENTIONAL sins:



> 22 " 'Now if you unintentionally fail to keep any of these commands the LORD gave Moses- 23 any of the LORD's commands to you through him, from the day the LORD gave them and continuing through the generations to come- 24 and if this is done unintentionally without the community being aware of it, then the whole community is to offer a young bull for a burnt offering as an aroma pleasing to the LORD, along with its prescribed grain offering and drink offering, and a male goat for a sin offering. 25 The priest is to make atonement for the whole Israelite community, and they will be forgiven, for it was not intentional and they have brought to the LORD for their wrong an offering made by fire and a sin offering. 26 The whole Israelite community and the aliens living among them will be forgiven, because all the people were involved in the unintentional wrong.






> Day of Atonement
> 
> 26 The LORD said to Moses, 27 "The tenth day of this seventh month is the Day of Atonement. Hold a sacred assembly and deny yourselves, [d] and present an offering made to the LORD by fire. 28 Do no work on that day, because it is the Day of Atonement, when atonement is made for you before the LORD your God. 29 Anyone who does not deny himself on that day must be cut off from his people. 30 I will destroy from among his people anyone who does any work on that day. 31 You shall do no work at all. This is to be a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, wherever you live. 32 It is a sabbath of rest for you, and you must deny yourselves. From the evening of the ninth day of the month until the following evening you are to observe your sabbath."
> 
> ...



You need to do a little more research on Yom Kippur.  Even it is not for all sins.


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## fivesolas (Mar 7, 2009)

Particular Redemption (limited)


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## celticfisherman (Mar 7, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> That is not what the verse says at all. Read it again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



DD the first verses I quoted before yours were not about intentional. They were about group. Being the idea that the people as a whole could sin. Amazing how the WHOLE would have to offer when we could be pretty sure there is at least one or two who didn't do whatever it was. I mean after all someone is always off throwing up or going to the bathroom when something happens.

NExt atonement. No explain why atonement isn't about SIN. Why do we sin? 

Maybe you should study instead of simple answers like that. Atonement is for sin.

And yes in Hebrews he is talking about Christ. That is why we do not offer sacrifices. The ultimate one has already been made.


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## Dixie Dawg (Mar 7, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> DD the first verses I quoted before yours were not about intentional. They were about group. Being the idea that the people as a whole could sin. Amazing how the WHOLE would have to offer when we could be pretty sure there is at least one or two who didn't do whatever it was. I mean after all someone is always off throwing up or going to the bathroom when something happens.



Group UNINTENTIONAL sins.  Pay attention.



> NExt atonement. No explain why atonement isn't about SIN. Why do we sin?



Where did I ever say atonement wasn't for sin????  You are making stuff up now....



> Maybe you should study instead of simple answers like that. Atonement is for sin.
> 
> And yes in Hebrews he is talking about Christ. That is why we do not offer sacrifices. The ultimate one has already been made.



Just another clear case of difference of interpretation.


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## Lowjack (Mar 7, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Num 15:27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.
> 
> 
> Num 15:28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.
> ...



That's Speaking of One type of Sin, there were many different types of Sacrifices for sin , Including one Universal sacrifice.


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## Dixie Dawg (Mar 7, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> That's Speaking of One type of Sin,



Really.... which one?



> there were many different types of Sacrifices for sin , Including one Universal sacrifice.



I see... where does it say that the 'Universal" sacrifice was for intentional sin?


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## celticfisherman (Mar 7, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Group UNINTENTIONAL sins.  Pay attention.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You just claimed that what I referenced wasn't for sin. Just curious what atonement meant then. But you didn't answer.

DD the problem is when something your mind rejects comes up your standard answer is "that's your interpretation" or "you're just making stuff up".

No reason to discuss it with you. You are REALLY just making insinuations and pulling rabbits out of a hat. There is no discussion with you. 

Plus I am wondering how you got to be a rabbi. I thought even reformed Jews had to believe in something...


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## Dixie Dawg (Mar 7, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> You just claimed that what I referenced wasn't for sin. Just curious what atonement meant then. But you didn't answer.



Where did I say that.  



> DD the problem is when something your mind rejects comes up your standard answer is "that's your interpretation" or "you're just making stuff up".
> 
> No reason to discuss it with you. You are REALLY just making insinuations and pulling rabbits out of a hat. There is no discussion with you.




DITTO!!!  Your standard answer is that we are not able to understand because we aren't Christians.  So why do YOU continue to discuss with us???



> Plus I am wondering how you got to be a rabbi. I thought even reformed Jews had to believe in something...




Say what?  Where did I say I was a rabbi???  Now you are really looking delusional.....


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## celticfisherman (Mar 7, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Where did I say that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You certainly no more about Judaism than the Rabbis I have been fortunate enough to sit with. Just curious.

Go back and read what you have written. 

And trust me you, earl and a couple of others have proven there is no common ground and it is not worth discussing it with you. So I guess I can quit worrying about it. 


BTW- WTM you are not included in the above statement!!! You neither pnome!


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## Dixie Dawg (Mar 7, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> You certainly no more about Judaism than the Rabbis I have been fortunate enough to sit with. Just curious.
> 
> Go back and read what you have written.



So, in other words, you admit that you made up any idea of me claiming to be a rabbi.

I have studied extensively for years with Jews of all sects.  And it isn't like the information is difficult to find.  All it takes is a few key words in Google, but apparently you are too lazy to look it up, you would rather make it up so that it follows your Christian belief.

I did go back and read what  I had written.  Apparently you made that part up too, because I said nothing of the sort.



> And trust me you, earl and a couple of others have proven there is no common ground and it is not worth discussing it with you. So I guess I can quit worrying about it.
> 
> 
> BTW- WTM you are not included in the above statement!!! You neither pnome!



  I had to chuckle at your last statement... I find it very  interesting that the ones who 'aren't included' in your rant are the ones who RARELY use scripture to refute you...    Taking the easy way out, are we?


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## celticfisherman (Mar 7, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> So, in other words, you admit that you made up any idea of me claiming to be a rabbi.
> 
> I have studied extensively for years with Jews of all sects.  And it isn't like the information is difficult to find.  All it takes is a few key words in Google, but apparently you are too lazy to look it up, you would rather make it up so that it follows your Christian belief.
> 
> ...



DD you have never used scripture to refute me. You have no idea what it means. So how could you know?


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## Dixie Dawg (Mar 7, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> DD you have never used scripture to refute me. You have no idea what it means. So how could you know?



I really worry about you sometimes, cf.


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## celticfisherman (Mar 8, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Please show me anywhere in these verses that you quoted where it says anything about INTENTIONAL sins:



Right here DD. 

Now goodnight. I'm done with arguing with you. I didn't make up the part about being a rabbi. I was saying you certainly "know" more than any I have ever set with. So surely you must be one or something akin to it.  

You cannot deny God and even understand Judaism or Christianity or Islam or in fact any other religion. First is the idea of God and then the idea of a Religion set in place to serve him or them or the little snake statue. Without it you might as well go back to your reference on PMS to men or explaining how to pee standing up to women...

But you have already said we have no common ground so we can now go our own way and just forget about it. There is no need to discuss it further.


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## celticfisherman (Mar 8, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I really worry about you sometimes, cf.



Don't just go show me and I will apologize. But see you first have to believe in the OT and the NT and the complete revelation. That is how a Christian should see the bible. Not two independent books. Otherwise one is twisted. No matter if it is the NT or the OT. It is one revelation.


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## Dixie Dawg (Mar 8, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Right here DD.



You stated that the quote you made talked about universal intentional and unintentional sin.  It did NOT.  It ONLY talked about UNINTENTIONAL sin.



> Now goodnight. I'm done with arguing with you. I didn't make up the part about being a rabbi.



Yes you did.  


> Plus I am wondering how you got to be a rabbi.





> I was saying you certainly "know" more than any I have ever set with. So surely you must be one or something akin to it.



You only backtracked after I asked you where I said that.



> You cannot deny God and even understand Judaism or Christianity or Islam or in fact any other religion. First is the idea of God and then the idea of a Religion set in place to serve him or them or the little snake statue. Without it you might as well go back to your reference on PMS to men or explaining how to pee standing up to women...
> 
> But you have already said we have no common ground so we can now go our own way and just forget about it. There is no need to discuss it further.



Well that is one of your problems right there... you don't pay attention who you are talking to.  I NEVER said I denied God.  I have always said that I believe in a creator.  I just don't accept YOUR idea of God.  I happen to have my own relationship with God that you know nothing about.

Try to pay more attention.  I know it gets repetitive telling people to 'go look it up'  or 'go read the book' or whatever you tell them to brush them off, but sometimes you should really pay attention.


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## Dixie Dawg (Mar 8, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Don't just go show me and I will apologize.



Huh?




> But see you first have to believe in the OT and the NT and the complete revelation. That is how a Christian should see the bible. Not two independent books. Otherwise one is twisted. No matter if it is the NT or the OT. It is one revelation.



I don't have to believe in both, and I don't.  And I certainly don't accept any 'revelation'.  The NT is completely against what the OT taught.  Kind of strange for a God who never changes.


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## farmasis (Mar 8, 2009)

Unlimited....

The blood of Christ is sufficient for all and for all sins, but will only be effective for those who apply it to their life.


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## Dixie Dawg (Mar 8, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Unlimited....
> 
> The blood of Christ is sufficient for all and for all sins, but will only be effective for those who apply it to their life.




   Hey farmasis!   Good to see you, been wondering where you've been!


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## farmasis (Mar 8, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Hey farmasis! Good to see you, been wondering where you've been!


 
Had to take a break....still on it actually-- just checking in.

The hashing of the same things get to you after a while, and you have to step away.

Hope things are well for you.


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## Dixie Dawg (Mar 8, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Had to take a break....still on it actually-- just checking in.
> 
> The hashing of the same things get to you after a while, and you have to step away.
> 
> Hope things are well for you.



I hear ya... feelin' that myself actually.
Hope things are well for you too, take care and blessings!


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## gemcgrew (Mar 8, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Unlimited....
> 
> The blood of Christ is sufficient for all and for all sins, but will only be effective for those who apply it to their life.



Let me see if I understand you correctly. Christ accomplished nothing.


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## Israel (Mar 8, 2009)

Can I change my answer? How much time is left?
Are there any extra credit questions?

Unlimited, definitely.
Unless it's partially unlimited, is that one of the choices?
I didn't see this question in the reading assignment.
How much will this go toward our final grade?
Definitely...partially limited or partially unlimited, and that's definitely my final answer.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 8, 2009)

Israel said:


> Unlimited, definitely.



Israel, you believe that Christ atoned for the sins of those in he11?


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## celticfisherman (Mar 8, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Huh?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I mistyped on the first. It should have said " Don't just tell me show me". But you knew that already and just chose to do this.

Rabbi- It WAS A COMMENT GET OVER IT! IT WAS A JOKE POKING FUN AT YOUR "KNOWLEDGE" BUT NOT ENACTING THE KNOWLEDGE!

No you don't have to believe in both. But this is my last part on this. Christians do believe in both. It is the same God with no Contradiction. It is not contrary. And there is no use trying to explain it to you anymore.

You are denying God. He gave his Son for you. You have said "No. I don't believe it did any good. I don't believe it was worthwhile or even that he was who he said he was." So yes you have denied God.  

Have a nice one.


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## Dixie Dawg (Mar 8, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> I mistyped on the first. It should have said " Don't just tell me show me". But you knew that already and just chose to do this.



Actually, I didn't... I was trying to figure out if you forgot some punctuation, as in maybe saying "Don't... just go show me and I will apologize", but that didn't make sense either.  And actually it still doesn't make sense... show you that I worry about you?  I wouldn't know how to do that.



> Rabbi- It WAS A COMMENT GET OVER IT! IT WAS A JOKE POKING FUN AT YOUR "KNOWLEDGE" BUT NOT ENACTING THE KNOWLEDGE!



I didn't find it amusing.



> No you don't have to believe in both. But this is my last part on this. Christians do believe in both. It is the same God with no Contradiction. It is not contrary. And there is no use trying to explain it to you anymore.
> 
> You are denying God. He gave his Son for you. You have said "No. I don't believe it did any good. I don't believe it was worthwhile or even that he was who he said he was." So yes you have denied God.
> 
> Have a nice one.



Nope, I sure haven't.  I have denied your pagan man-god, I have not denied the God that I believe in.

Have a great one!


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## earl (Mar 8, 2009)

cf, since you brought my handle into this I will reply or high jack if you will. You should really quit while you think you are ahead. You are like a comedian with only one joke . It was good the first time but your patent answer is wearing thin with age and use.'' I'm  done with you'' has even lost it's impact.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 8, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> If you can't tell... Limited atonement.







celticfisherman said:


> You are denying God. He gave his Son for you.



How can you tell DD with surety that Christ died for her and at the same time answer limited atonement?


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## earl (Mar 8, 2009)

He is the maestro ,thats how. He can also tell you more about yourself than even you know.


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## Israel (Mar 8, 2009)

gemcgrew said:


> Israel, you believe that Christ atoned for the sins of those in he11?


Yes.
At least if you find that statement not exclusive of this statement.

1 John 2: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

But I am not going to be contentious.
I hope I have made it plain I am not much interested in a "right" answer that will either lead to agreement or disagreement.
I have always loved (since I learned of it at least) the extravagance of God's mercy and love in Christ.
And when but a babe in Christ (long before I heard of tulips and those who love to entertain these questions) I quickly recognized a difference between myself and Christ.
Mine would have been to cut a deal with the Father..."Look, don't lead me to suffer all that must be suffered for all sin, how bout we just pare it down to paying for those who are gonna believe?" 
I am one who has always tended to like shortcuts and minimal discomfort.
This is also about the time I realized I probably woulda told the Romans..."Carry that? All the way up there? After you beat me bloody and I can hardly stand? Hey, I know what you're going to do when we get there, anyway, so I'm just gonna lay down right here and you do whatever you're gonna do"

There's always been a difference between Christ and I. My decrepit reasoning...and his obedience unto death.
Man am I glad he is who he says he is, and says he can do with me, (and all his people) what he says.
He says this:
Matthew 5: 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

For as much as that includes these discussions, I'm in.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 8, 2009)

Israel said:


> Yes.



Thank you for your honesty. Are you saying the atonement of Christ is not sufficient and God yet requires something more?

Not picking a fight or building a straw man. I was surprised at your answer is all. I have not been on here long enough to get a feel for each ones position. Yours caught me a little off guard.

Thanks


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## SBG (Mar 8, 2009)

gemcgrew said:


> Israel, you believe that Christ atoned for the sins of those in he11?



I know this was not addressed towards me, but for the record, I have no doubt that Christ atoned for the sins of all mankind. If it were not so, his cry of "it is finished" would be senseless.


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## farmasis (Mar 8, 2009)

gemcgrew said:


> Let me see if I understand you correctly. Christ accomplished nothing.


 
I accepted Christ, so yes he did.

Christ's blood was enough to cover every last person and every sin. However, it is a covenant between God and us. He does his part, we must do ours. We have to accept the calling of the Holy Spirit and take up our cross and follow him.
It is not a work, it is faith, it is belief. That is God's plan of salvation. John 3:16 for one of the many examples.


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## Lowjack (Mar 8, 2009)

gemcgrew said:


> Israel, you believe that Christ atoned for the sins of those in he11?



Peter Said He did and so Did Paul, when he descended to lower parts of the Earth and preach to the souls of those that perished in the flood of Noah who were at  one time dissobedient"
And Paul said he did and took captive Captivity into the heavens.
If he hadn't done that, would he have being a fair sacrifice ? For the whole World as the bible Estates.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 8, 2009)

I don't get so awfully concerned about the sinners who died prior to Christ's death on the cross.  I can't intelligently discuss their eternal abode, even with the use of God's inspired word.  Heavenly management will deal with those.

But Jesus Christ has no limits for those who live for Him.

1John 1:5This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 
6If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 
8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 
9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


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## fivesolas (Mar 8, 2009)

“I may be called Antinomian or Calvinist for preaching a limited atonement; but I had rather believe a limited atonement that is efficacious for all men for whom it was intended, than a universal atonement that is not efficacious for anybody, except the will of man be joined with it.” - C.H. Spurgeon


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## Lowjack (Mar 8, 2009)

Now that didn't make any sense at all


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## Israel (Mar 9, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> “I may be called Antinomian or Calvinist for preaching a limited atonement; but I had rather believe a limited atonement that is efficacious for all men for whom it was intended, than a universal atonement that is not efficacious for anybody, except the will of man be joined with it.” - C.H. Spurgeon



Maybe Spurgeon never got to the point where he saw what "he'd rather believe" doesn't mean a thing.


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## Banjo (Mar 9, 2009)

gemcgrew said:


> Which Adam?



This is a great question.....


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## Banjo (Mar 9, 2009)

Works' salvation.....

God + Man's Decision = Salvation


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## fivesolas (Mar 9, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Work's salvation.....
> 
> God + Man's Decision = Salvation



Amen.


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## farmasis (Mar 9, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Works' salvation.....
> 
> God + Man's Decision = Salvation


 
God's plan of salvation:

God + Man's Decision = Salvation

Show me where a decision is a work, and I will post 30 scriptures (if need be) that says salvation is based on belief or faith.


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## fivesolas (Mar 9, 2009)

farmasis said:


> God's plan of salvation:
> 
> God + Man's Decision = Salvation
> 
> Show me where a decision is a work, and I will post 30 scriptures (if need be) that says salvation is based on belief or faith.



What Scripture teaches that regeneration is the work of man?

You will need about 40min to watch this vid. But I would say this is what Banjo and I are talking about. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGdovFDTCC4


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## celticfisherman (Mar 9, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Works' salvation.....
> 
> God + Man's Decision = Salvation



Yep. There ain't a thing we can do. It is thru the Grace of God and His sovereign will alone.


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## SBG (Mar 9, 2009)

1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


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## Dixie Dawg (Mar 9, 2009)

SBG said:


> 1 John 2:2
> And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.



*see label for exclusions to this offer


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## Banjo (Mar 9, 2009)

farmasis said:


> God's plan of salvation:
> 
> God + Man's Decision = Salvation
> 
> Show me where a decision is a work, and I will post 30 scriptures (if need be) that says salvation is based on belief or faith.




Hey Farmasis!  I hope you and yours are well.  I know that we have been through this before...but why not?

The Arminian will say..."There is nothing man can do to earn his salvation BUT believe."

Who grants belief?  Who grants repentance?  Who grants faith?


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## christianhunter (Mar 9, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Unlimited....
> 
> The blood of Christ is sufficient for all and for all sins, but will only be effective for those who apply it to their life.



I totally agree with that.


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## Banjo (Mar 9, 2009)

> but will only be effective for those who apply it to their life.



Man's work....

What if someone "decides" to apply it to his/her life only to "decide" later to "unapply" it....

Assurance is best found in Limited Atonement.  What God has applied is everlasting....


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Mar 9, 2009)

farmasis said:


> God's plan of salvation:
> 
> God + Man's Decision = Salvation
> 
> Show me where a decision is a work, and I will post 30 scriptures (if need be) that says salvation is based on belief or faith.


 

You making a concious choice is a work... Your brain had to expend the energy to make the choice, so it has to be work...

I posted a thread on this a while back... I will try and find it and bump it to the top...

Limited, most definately!

DB BB


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## SBG (Mar 9, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> You making a concious choice is a work... Your brain had to expend the energy to make the choice, so it has to be work...
> 
> I posted a thread on this a while back... I will try and find it and bump it to the top...
> 
> ...




It is interesting what CHS preached on the subject.

in regard TO YOU THAT ARE SEEKING SALVATION. Does not the text show you that it is very possible that the reason why you have not found salvation is because you do not know the truth? Hence, I do most earnestly entreat the many of you young people who cannot get rest to be very diligent searchers of your Bibles. The first thing and the main thing is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, but if you say," I do not understand it," or "I cannot believe," or if there be any such doubt rising in your mind, then it may be because you have not gained complete knowledge of the truth. It is very possible that somebody will say to you, "Believe, believe, believe." I would say the same to you, but I should like you to act upon the common-sense principle of knowing what is to be believed and in whom you are to believe. I explained this to one who came to me a few evenings ago. She said that she could not believe. "Well," I said, "now suppose as you sit in that chair I say to you, 'Young friend, I cannot believe in you': you would say to me, 'I think you should.' Suppose I then replied, 'I wish I could.' What would you bid me do? Should I sit still and look at you till I said, 'I think I can believe in you'? That would be ridiculous. No, I should go and enquire, 'Who is this young person? What kind of character does she bear? What are her connections?' and when I knew all about you, then I have no doubt that I should say, 'I have made examination into this young woman's character, and I cannot help believing in her.'" Now, it is just so with Jesus Christ. If you say, "I cannot believe in him," read those four blessed testimonies of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and especially linger much over those parts where they tell you of his death. Do you know that many, while they have been sitting, as it were, at the foot of the cross, viewing the Son of God dying for men, have cried out, "I cannot help believing. I cannot help believing. When I see my sin, it seems too great; but when I see my Savior my iniquity vanishes away." I think I have put it to you sometimes like this: if you take a ride through London, from end to end, it will take you many days to get an idea of its vastness; for probably none of us know the size of London. After your long ride of inspection you will say," I wonder how those people can all be fed. I cannot make it out. Where does all the bread come from, and all the butter, and all the cheese, and all the meat, and everything else? Why, these people will be starved. It is not possible that Lebanon with all its beasts, and the vast plains of Europe and America should ever supply food sufficient for all this multitude." That is your feeling. And then, to-morrow morning you get up, and you go to Covent Garden, you go to the great meat-markets, and to other sources of supply, and when you come home you say, "I feel quite different now, for now 1 cannot make out where all the people come from to eat all this provision: I never saw such store of food in all my life. Why, if there were two Londons, surely there is enough here to feed them." Just so—when you think about your sins and your wants you get saying, "How can I be saved?" Now, turn your thoughts the other way; think that Christ is the Son of God: think of what the merit must be of the incarnate God's hearing human guilt; and instead of saying, "My sin is too great," you will almost think the atoning sacrifice too great. Therefore I do urge you to try and know more of Christ; and I am only giving you the advice of Isaiah, "Incline your ear, and come unto me; hear, and your soul shall live." Know, hear, read, and believe more about these precious things, always with this wish—"I am not hearing for hearing's sake, and I am not wishing to know for knowing's sake, but I am wanting to hear and to know that I may be saved." I want you to be like the woman that lost her piece of silver. She did not light a candle and then say, "Bravo, I have lit a candle, this is enough." She did not take her broom and then sit down content, crying, "What a splendid broom." When she raised a dust she did not exclaim, "What a dust I am making! I am surely making progress now." Some poor sinners, when they have been seeking, get into a dust of soul-trouble, and think it to be a comfortable sign. No, I'll warrant you, the woman wanted her groat: she did not mind the broom, or the dust, or the candle; she looked for the silver. So it must be with you. Never content yourself with the reading, the hearing, or the feeling. It is Christ you want. It is the precious piece of money that you must find; and you must sweep until you find it. Why, there it is! There is Jesus! Take him! Take him! Believe him now, even now, and you are saved.


----------



## Ronnie T (Mar 9, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> You making a concious choice is a work... Your brain had to expend the energy to make the choice, so it has to be work...
> 
> I posted a thread on this a while back... I will try and find it and bump it to the top...
> 
> ...



Making the choice is not a work according to the Bible's definition of "works".
There must be a decision.
Surely you believe that.


----------



## Banjo (Mar 9, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Making the choice is not a work according to the Bible's definition of "works".
> There must be a decision.
> Surely you believe that.



Who grants you the faith to "make" that decision?  Is the "decision" made apart from the Holy Spirit quickening one who was once spiritually dead?

It is the old chicken or the egg scenario?

What comes first, regeneration or the "decision?"

If it is regeneration, then God is indeed the author of our salvation....He sends the Holy Spirit to quicken our dead hearts...The first fruit of regeneration is a heart that "makes a decision,"  or cries out for mercy.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Mar 9, 2009)

SBG said:


> It is interesting what CHS preached on the subject.
> 
> in regard TO YOU THAT ARE SEEKING SALVATION. Does not the text show you that it is very possible that the reason why you have not found salvation is because you do not know the truth? Hence, I do most earnestly entreat the many of you young people who cannot get rest to be very diligent searchers of your Bibles. The first thing and the main thing is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, but if you say," I do not understand it," or "I cannot believe," or if there be any such doubt rising in your mind, then it may be because you have not gained complete knowledge of the truth. It is very possible that somebody will say to you, "Believe, believe, believe." I would say the same to you, but I should like you to act upon the common-sense principle of knowing what is to be believed and in whom you are to believe. I explained this to one who came to me a few evenings ago. She said that she could not believe. "Well," I said, "now suppose as you sit in that chair I say to you, 'Young friend, I cannot believe in you': you would say to me, 'I think you should.' Suppose I then replied, 'I wish I could.' What would you bid me do? Should I sit still and look at you till I said, 'I think I can believe in you'? That would be ridiculous. No, I should go and enquire, 'Who is this young person? What kind of character does she bear? What are her connections?' and when I knew all about you, then I have no doubt that I should say, 'I have made examination into this young woman's character, and I cannot help believing in her.'" Now, it is just so with Jesus Christ. If you say, "I cannot believe in him," read those four blessed testimonies of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and especially linger much over those parts where they tell you of his death. Do you know that many, while they have been sitting, as it were, at the foot of the cross, viewing the Son of God dying for men, have cried out, "I cannot help believing. I cannot help believing. When I see my sin, it seems too great; but when I see my Savior my iniquity vanishes away." I think I have put it to you sometimes like this: if you take a ride through London, from end to end, it will take you many days to get an idea of its vastness; for probably none of us know the size of London. After your long ride of inspection you will say," I wonder how those people can all be fed. I cannot make it out. Where does all the bread come from, and all the butter, and all the cheese, and all the meat, and everything else? Why, these people will be starved. It is not possible that Lebanon with all its beasts, and the vast plains of Europe and America should ever supply food sufficient for all this multitude." That is your feeling. And then, to-morrow morning you get up, and you go to Covent Garden, you go to the great meat-markets, and to other sources of supply, and when you come home you say, "I feel quite different now, for now 1 cannot make out where all the people come from to eat all this provision: I never saw such store of food in all my life. Why, if there were two Londons, surely there is enough here to feed them." Just so—when you think about your sins and your wants you get saying, "How can I be saved?" Now, turn your thoughts the other way; think that Christ is the Son of God: think of what the merit must be of the incarnate God's hearing human guilt; and instead of saying, "My sin is too great," you will almost think the atoning sacrifice too great. Therefore I do urge you to try and know more of Christ; and I am only giving you the advice of Isaiah, "Incline your ear, and come unto me; hear, and your soul shall live." Know, hear, read, and believe more about these precious things, always with this wish—"I am not hearing for hearing's sake, and I am not wishing to know for knowing's sake, but I am wanting to hear and to know that I may be saved." I want you to be like the woman that lost her piece of silver. She did not light a candle and then say, "Bravo, I have lit a candle, this is enough." She did not take her broom and then sit down content, crying, "What a splendid broom." When she raised a dust she did not exclaim, "What a dust I am making! I am surely making progress now." Some poor sinners, when they have been seeking, get into a dust of soul-trouble, and think it to be a comfortable sign. No, I'll warrant you, the woman wanted her groat: she did not mind the broom, or the dust, or the candle; she looked for the silver. So it must be with you. Never content yourself with the reading, the hearing, or the feeling. It is Christ you want. It is the precious piece of money that you must find; and you must sweep until you find it. Why, there it is! There is Jesus! Take him! Take him! Believe him now, even now, and you are saved.


 

If you are seeking Salvation, then God has already started the work in you... you can't start it yourself...

DB BB


----------



## Ronnie T (Mar 9, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Who grants you the faith to "make" that decision?  Is the "decision" made apart from the Holy Spirit quickening one who was once spiritually dead?
> 
> It is the old chicken or the egg scenario?
> 
> ...




I think Cornelius is a good case study.  He was a Gentile.  He was not a Gentile who had converted to Judaism.  He was a Gentile who made a decision.  And God responded to that decision, just as God responded to your decision.
What can first, the chicken or the egg?  The decision.

Acts 10:1Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort, a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually. 

3About the ninth hour of the day he clearly saw in a vision an angel of God who had just come in and said to him, "Cornelius!" 

4And fixing his gaze on him and being much alarmed, he said, "What is it, Lord?" And he said to him, "Your prayers and alms have ascended as a memorial before God.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 9, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Making the choice is not a work according to the Bible's definition of "works".
> There must be a decision.
> Surely you believe that.


 
No because if there was a decision on your Salvation then you have a choice... Yes or No...

There was no decision when God got ahold of me...

See RT, you don't believe in Total Depravity, and I do... The way I understand you... That is the basis of the "choice" you talk about... The depraved person wants nothing to do with God...

DB BB


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## Lowjack (Mar 9, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> *see label for exclusions to this offer



Wow ! I Agree with you ? Let me check my pulse.


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## celticfisherman (Mar 9, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> No because if there was a decision on your Salvation then you have a choice... Yes or No...
> 
> There was no decision when God got ahold of me...
> 
> ...



Hebrews 9:28 (New International Version)

28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Hebrews 2:10 (New International Version)

 10In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.

Titus 2:11 (New International Version)

 11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

He has appeared to all but only some have been chosen to accept.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 9, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> No because if there was a decision on your Salvation then you have a choice... Yes or No...
> 
> There was no decision when God got ahold of me...
> "Oh yes there was"
> ...



Look above concerning Cornelius in Acts 10.
God obviously revealed Himself to Cornelius is some way because Cornelius began to seek God.  Prior to that, Cornelius, as you put it, was depraved.
Cornelius began seeking God. Because of that seeking, God responded and sent Peter to teach him all that he needed to know.
There was a "seeking" on Cornelius' part, and God responded to that seeking.
Whether you believe it or not, that's what happened for you DBDD.
You responded.  You made a choice and God was already there.  Same with Cornelius.
Now do I believe you worked your way into God's grace??? Heavens no.  Not even close.  Your choice didn't make you worthy.
The blood of Jesus Christ made you worthy.


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## SBG (Mar 9, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> If you are seeking Salvation, then God has already started the work in you... you can't start it yourself...
> 
> DB BB



I agree with that.


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## SBG (Mar 9, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> He has appeared to all but only some have been chosen to accept.



Amen!!!!


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 9, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Look above concerning Cornelius in Acts 10.
> God obviously revealed Himself to Cornelius is some way because Cornelius began to seek God. Prior to that, Cornelius, as you put it, was depraved.
> Cornelius began seeking God. Because of that seeking, God responded and sent Peter to teach him all that he needed to know.
> There was a "seeking" on Cornelius' part, and God responded to that seeking.
> ...


 
Cornelius would not have seeked after God if God had not put it in his heart to seek Him....

Is Cornelius the only example in the Bible where you see this seeking?

Cornelius was a devout man... which means he did practice a religion... Gentile by birth, but Jewish by practice of religion... He knew to look for a Messiah... God chose him.... Even before Cornelius seeked Him...

You may not believe me when I tell you there was not a choice in my life, then so be it... but I can not lie to myself and I would not lie to anyone else about my experience... Nothing in me or by me made me worthy of the gift that God gave me...

DB BB


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## Lowjack (Mar 9, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Hebrews 9:28 (New International Version)
> 
> 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
> 
> ...


If He chose who was to be saved, why the charade of having his son die for their sins.
Doesn't the OT says that anyone who repents and mend his wrongfull ways will live ?
Couldn't God just say , hey you are saved you are not"?


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## celticfisherman (Mar 9, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> If He chose who was to be saved, why the charade of having his son die for their sins.
> Doesn't the OT says that anyone who repents and mend his wrongfull ways will live ?
> Couldn't God just say , hey you are saved you are not"?



There has to be a sacrifice...


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## Ronnie T (Mar 9, 2009)

1.  John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

2.  John 5:34
"But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.

3.  John 10:9
" I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

4.  Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

5.  1 Corinthians 15

1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 
3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 

6.  1 Timothy 2:3-5
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 
5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 

7.  1 Thessalonians 2:15-17
15who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men, 
16hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins But wrath has come upon them to the utmost. 
17But we, brethren, having been taken away from you for a short while--in person, not in spirit--were all the more eager with great desire to see your face.


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## rjcruiser (Mar 9, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Limited or Unlimited atonement?
> 
> Which one do you  believe in.




TULIP

Oh crap...does this refer to the U or the L


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## celticfisherman (Mar 9, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> 1.  John 3:17
> "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
> 
> 2.  John 5:34
> ...



But his sheep will hear his voice. Who are his sheep? The Elect.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 9, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> But his sheep will hear his voice. Who are his sheep? The Elect.



How bout we talk in terms of receiving Christ, seeking Christ and being saved rather than sheep and elect.
I don't normal speak in those terms.
Those about scripture speaks of anyone being able to be saved saved, not about being the elect.


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## Israel (Mar 9, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> TULIP
> 
> Oh crap...does this refer to the U or the L



I think the U stands for Unutterably wonderful

While the L stands for Literally delightful.

Or something like that.

And T is for the Thousand things you gave meeeeee....


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## farmasis (Mar 9, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Man's work....
> 
> What if someone "decides" to apply it to his/her life only to "decide" later to "unapply" it....
> 
> Assurance is best found in Limited Atonement. What God has applied is everlasting....


 
You can't apply it without God.
Immpossible to be a un-new creature when sealed with the Holy Spirit who is a down payment for our salvation. You can backslide, but you will pay (but not with your salvation) .


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## farmasis (Mar 9, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Hey Farmasis! I hope you and yours are well. I know that we have been through this before...but why not?
> 
> The Arminian will say..."There is nothing man can do to earn his salvation BUT believe."
> 
> Who grants belief? Who grants repentance? Who grants faith?


 
We have been doing great. Hope you too.
God grants belief, on his timetable. But, does not force you to believe.


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## farmasis (Mar 9, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> You making a concious choice is a work... Your brain had to expend the energy to make the choice, so it has to be work...
> 
> I posted a thread on this a while back... I will try and find it and bump it to the top...
> 
> ...


 
IF that is true, then we are saved by works, because the Bible says time and time again saved by belief and faith.


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## celticfisherman (Mar 9, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> How bout we talk in terms of receiving Christ, seeking Christ and being saved rather than sheep and elect.
> I don't normal speak in those terms.
> Those about scripture speaks of anyone being able to be saved saved, not about being the elect.



But Ronnie. That is how Christ described it in Matthew.


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## farmasis (Mar 9, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> But Ronnie. That is how Christ described it in Matthew.


 
Not exactly sure which one you are referring to-- the lost sheep out of 99 or the seperation of sheeps and goats because neither seems to apply. Maybe I missed a sheep-- gonna go count them again 

But, in John 10 Jesus says----

 <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-26474 value="3">3</SUP>The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-26475 value="4">4</SUP>When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 
......
 <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-26478 value="7">7</SUP>Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-26479 value="8">8</SUP>All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-26480 value="9">9</SUP>I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.

Doesn't sound limited to those hand picked before....


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## gemcgrew (Mar 9, 2009)

There is not a hint, anywhere in the Word of God, that Christ died to redeem and save all men without exception. All the types of redemption in the Old Testament, and all the prophecies, indicated the redemption of a specific people.

Every text of Scripture in which the doctrine of the atonement is taught and explained, in both the Old and New Testaments, the atonement is specifically declared to be a work of justice and grace performed by God alone for a specific people.

The argument for universal atonement is an argument drawn from error. There is not a hint, anywhere in Holy Scripture, that God loves all men without exception. To those who think otherwise, Please explain Isaiah 43:3-4 and Matthew 11:20-26.


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## Lowjack (Mar 9, 2009)

gemcgrew said:


> There is not a hint, anywhere in the Word of God, that Christ died to redeem and save all men without exception. All the types of redemption in the Old Testament, and all the prophecies, indicated the redemption of a specific people.
> 
> Every text of Scripture in which the doctrine of the atonement is taught and explained, in both the Old and New Testaments, the atonement is specifically declared to be a work of justice and grace performed by God alone for a specific people.
> 
> The argument for universal atonement is an argument drawn from error. There is not a hint, anywhere in Holy Scripture, that God loves all men without exception. To those who think otherwise, Please explain Isaiah 43:3-4 and Matthew 11:20-26.




Maybe you haven't found it yet, but there is scripture in the OT which excludes sacrifice and Salvation, question is does it apply to gentiles ?
Gentiles are not the elect and that is where most of you err.
Ezek 18:20-22,30
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

So to have a limited salvation violates the very principal of God's law.
It Violates his sovereingty as a God Of Mercy
Rom 9;15 God said to moses, I will save whom I will save, despite what we think God the Father can apply the blood of Christ to anyone he desires, he never gave up his sovereingty to man to decide who should be saved.

Romans 9:16 (NKJV) So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 

The emphasis in Romans 9 is on the absolute sovereignty of God, brought forth by a question about Israel's rejection. Israel was a unique people in the plan of God. They were sovereignly called into existence and set aside as God's people. They were given promises, and covenants, and God led and guided them. It was to them that Christ came. 

Romans 9:4-5 (NKJV) who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. 

Israel, God's chosen people, rejected Jesus Christ and crucified Him, and at the time of Paul's writing they were rejecting the proclamation of the gospel by the apostles. So the question arises; how can the gospel be true if God's people, the Jews rejected it? And if the gospel is true, has God gone back on his promises to Israel? Romans 9 becomes, in a sense, an apologetic -- a defense of the gospel, as well as a theodicy -- a defense of God. 

Romans 9 could be broken into four subsections, Israel's rejection of the gospel doesn't violate God's: PROMISE, PERSON, PLAN, or PREREQUISITE. 

Paul opens this chapter by solemnly declaring that Israel's unbelief and consequent rejection is for him a heavy burden, (verses 2 & 3) but he wants us to be clear that Israel's rejection and unbelief doesn't violate God's PROMISE (verses 6-13).


----------



## Ronnie T (Mar 9, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> How bout we talk in terms of receiving Christ, seeking Christ and being saved rather than sheep and elect.
> I don't normal speak in those terms.
> Those about scripture speaks of anyone being able to be saved saved, not about being the elect.



I personally wrote the above earlier today.
Could someone please tell me what I could possibly have meant to say with the last sentence?????
Ain't the human brain complicated???


----------



## farmasis (Mar 9, 2009)

gemcgrew said:


> There is not a hint, anywhere in the Word of God, that Christ died to redeem and save all men without exception.


 
I disagree.

<O
I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness. And if anyone hears My words and does not believe,_ I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. (John 12:46-48)__


This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:39-40)


<OFor the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” (John 6:33)</O
<O
<OThen they said to the woman, “Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ,[a] the Savior of the world.” (John 4:42)</O
<O
<OThe next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! (John 1:29)
</O</O
<O
<OFor to this end we both labor and suffer reproach,[a] because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. (1 Timothy 4:10)
</O
<O
<OFor in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone. (Hebrews 2:8-9)<O

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:17-18)


“For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.[a]<O></O>
“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. (Matthew 18:11-14)


<O"Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life (Romans 5:18). </O>
<O
<O"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9). </O
<O
<O"Who (speaking of Christ) gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time" (1 Timothy 2:6).
<O
<O"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:4). </O
<O
<O"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2)._


----------



## farmasis (Mar 9, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Gentiles are not the elect and that is where most of you err.



Love ya Lowjack, but not letting that one by.

<SUP>29</SUP>Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-28007 value="30">30</SUP>since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. (Romans 3)


<SUP>23</SUP>What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-28165 value="24">24</SUP>even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-28166 value="25">25</SUP>As he says in Hosea: 
   "I will call them 'my people' who are not my people; 
      and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,"<SUP class=footnote value='[i]'>[i]</SUP> <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-28167 value="26">26</SUP>and, 
   "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, 
      'You are not my people,' 
   they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "<SUP class=footnote value='[j]'>[j]</SUP> (Romans 9)


----------



## Lowjack (Mar 10, 2009)

Will respond tomorrow, too old to stay up LOL


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Mar 10, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Doesn't the OT says that anyone who repents and mend his wrongfull ways will live ?



Sure does.  No sacrifice needed.


----------



## Israel (Mar 10, 2009)

Yeah, it is mentioned in many places "to the elect lady..." by John somewhere.
Paul talks about bearing many sufferings for  "the sake of the elect"
Jesus speaks of the evil days being cut short for the elect's sake. And deception being so great that even the elect might be misled.
Elect are both Jews and gentiles chosen by God for salvation.


----------



## SBG (Mar 10, 2009)

gemcgrew said:


> There is not a hint, anywhere in the Word of God, that Christ died to redeem and save all men without exception. All the types of redemption in the Old Testament, and all the prophecies, indicated the redemption of a specific people.
> 
> Every text of Scripture in which the doctrine of the atonement is taught and explained, in both the Old and New Testaments, the atonement is specifically declared to be a work of justice and grace performed by God alone for a specific people.
> 
> The argument for universal atonement is an argument drawn from error. There is not a hint, anywhere in Holy Scripture, that God loves all men without exception. To those who think otherwise, Please explain Isaiah 43:3-4 and Matthew 11:20-26.



1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Mar 10, 2009)

farmasis said:


> IF that is true, then we are saved by works, because the Bible says time and time again saved by belief and faith.


 

where does that belief and faith come from?

DB BB


----------



## farmasis (Mar 10, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> where does that belief and faith come from?
> 
> DB BB


 
Faith comes by hearing the word of God. You choose to believe it. That is why some can hear, and not believe and not have faith. Paul does a marvelous job here:

<SUP>14</SUP> How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28198 value="15">15</SUP> And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: 


_“ How beautiful are the feet of those who_ _preach the gospel of peace,_<SUP class=footnote value='[h]'>[h]</SUP>
_Who bring glad tidings of good things!”_<SUP class=footnote value='[i]'>[i]</SUP>

 <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28199 value="16">16</SUP> But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, _“LORD, who has believed our report?”_<SUP class=footnote value='[j]'>[j]</SUP> <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28200 value="17">17</SUP> So then faith _comes_ by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
<SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28201 value="18">18</SUP> But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: (Romans 10)


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Mar 10, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Faith comes by hearing the word of God. You choose to believe it. That is why some can hear, and not believe and not have faith. Paul does a marvelous job here:
> 
> <SUP>14</SUP> How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? <SUP id=en-NKJV-28198 class=versenum value="15">15</SUP> And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
> 
> ...


 

Where does Faith and Belief come from?  Who supply's those 2 things?

DB BB


----------



## farmasis (Mar 10, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Where does Faith and Belief come from? Who supply's those 2 things?
> 
> DB BB


 
From God, of course.

He supplies his word for us to hear, our means to hear and understand, his spirit to convict and interprete for us, and (this is where we part ways...  ) a free will to decide if we believe Jesus is who he says he is.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 10, 2009)

farmasis said:


> From God, of course.


 





farmasis said:


> He supplies his word for us to hear, our means to hear and understand, his spirit to convict and interprete for us, and (this is where we part ways...  ) a free will to decide if we believe Jesus is who he says he is.


 
So this "free will" does it have power over God?

DB BB


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## farmasis (Mar 10, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> So this "free will" does it have power over God?
> 
> DB BB


 
No way!
Like I have said before I believe in limited free will. It is limited to what God grants. He can remove it at any time. It doesn't supecede him. If it did, we could save ourselves.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 10, 2009)

farmasis said:


> No way!
> Like I have said before I believe in limited free will. It is limited to what God grants. He can remove it at any time. It doesn't supecede him. If it did, we could save ourselves.


 
Don't think I have ever heard of "limited free will"... I thought you had it or you didn't...

So could God remove our "free will" during Salvation?

DB BB


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## Lowjack (Mar 10, 2009)

If You are elected then why worry about anything, You are in !
Let the world go around no matter what you will get in the door, I forgot where those verses are???
And if you are not elected then what are you doing trying to get in ?


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Mar 10, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> If You are elected then why worry about anything, You are in !
> Let the world go around no matter what you will get in the door, I forgot where those verses are???
> And if you are not elected then what are you doing trying to get in ?


 

I try not to worry about anything.

Salvation is not a license to do what you want.

You wouldn't try if you weren't part of the elect, so you wouldn't know the difference.

DB BB

edited the last one... hands typed faster than my mind thought..


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## farmasis (Mar 10, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Don't think I have ever heard of "limited free will"... I thought you had it or you didn't...
> 
> So could God remove our "free will" during Salvation?
> 
> DB BB


 
We are all limited to what HE gives us. We both believe in limited free will, but you just believe he has given us none  .

No, cannot be removed. That is a promise from God, and unlike us, he keeps his.


----------



## farmasis (Mar 10, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> I try not to worry about anything.
> 
> Salvation is not a license to do what you want.
> 
> ...


 
If you felt you were predestined to the elect, why wouldn't you sin away? God is gonna save you no matter what you do, or even if you reject him. No worries, sin away.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Mar 10, 2009)

farmasis said:


> We are all limited to what HE gives us. We both believe in limited free will, but you just believe he has given us none  .
> 
> No, cannot be removed. That is a promise from God, and unlike us, he keeps his.


 

I wasn't talking about loosing Salvation... I was talking about when you are Saved.

DB BB


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Mar 10, 2009)

farmasis said:


> If you felt you were predestined to the elect, why wouldn't you sin away? God is gonna save you no matter what you do, or even if you reject him. No worries, sin away.


 
You wouldn't know you were part of the Elect until you were saved.... Total Depravity...

God Saves with no concern to the goodness of the person...

DB BB


----------



## farmasis (Mar 10, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> You wouldn't know you were part of the Elect until you were saved.... Total Depravity...
> 
> God Saves with no concern to the goodness of the person...
> 
> DB BB


 

But why would it matter if you knew or not? No reason to go to church, tithe, etc. You could keep all the stuff from the world while you were here and either burn or have paradise after. You have no part in it.


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## Lowjack (Mar 10, 2009)

farmasis said:


> But why would it matter if you knew or not? No reason to go to church, tithe, etc. You could keep all the stuff from the world while you were here and either burn or have paradise after. You have no part in it.


You are on the money! If God elected who was to be saved why not make a covenant with the gentiles as he did with Israel and spare himself from becoming a man and having to die.
Doesn't make sense at all.


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## celticfisherman (Mar 10, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> You wouldn't know you were part of the Elect until you were saved.... Total Depravity...
> 
> God Saves with no concern to the goodness of the person...
> 
> DB BB



For none of us are worthy. We are all deserving of death and separation from him.

Thank goodness for His Grace.


----------



## farmasis (Mar 10, 2009)

A few more verses to ponder on in this debate:


<SUP>19</SUP> This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-5729 value="20">20</SUP> and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. (Deut. 30)

<SUP>14</SUP> "Now fear the LORD and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your forefathers worshiped beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-6492 value="15">15</SUP> But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD." (Jeremiah 24)

 <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-18910 value="12">12</SUP> I will destine you for the sword, 
       and you will all bend down for the slaughter; 
       for I called but you did not answer, 
       I spoke but you did not listen. 
       You did evil in my sight 
       and chose what displeases me." (Isaiah 65)


 <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-22557 value="8">8</SUP> "Those who cling to worthless idols 
       forfeit the grace that could be theirs.  <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-22558 value="9">9</SUP> But I, with a song of thanksgiving, 
       will sacrifice to you. 
       What I have vowed I will make good. 
       Salvation comes from the LORD." (Jonah 2)

 <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-30270 value="19">19</SUP>My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-30271 value="20">20</SUP>for man's anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-30272 value="21">21</SUP>Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you. (James 1)


----------



## Ronnie T (Mar 10, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Where does Faith and Belief come from?  Who supply's those 2 things?
> 
> DB BB



Where does Faith and Belief come from????????

1.  Matthew 6:30
"But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith!

2.  Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who were following, "Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel.

3.  Matthew 9:22
But Jesus turning and seeing her said, "Daughter, take courage; your faith has made you well." At once the woman was made well.

4.  Matthew 17:20
And He said to them, "Because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

5.  John 14:11
"Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.

6.  Acts 4:4
But many of those who had heard the message believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand.

7.  Acts 8:37
[ And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."]

8.  Acts 10:43
"Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

9.  Acts 13:12
Then the proconsul believed when he saw what had happened, being amazed at the teaching of the Lord.

10.  Acts 14:1
 In Iconium they entered the synagogue of the Jews together, and spoke in such a manner that a large number of people believed, both of Jews and of Greeks.

11.  Acts 16:31
[ The Jailer Converted ] They said, " Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

12.  Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

13.  Romans 4:3
For what does the Scripture say? " ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

14.  Romans 10:10  *Here's a good one*
for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

15.  Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,


*Where does faith and belief come from???


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Mar 11, 2009)

farmasis said:


> But why would it matter if you knew or not? No reason to go to church, tithe, etc. You could keep all the stuff from the world while you were here and either burn or have paradise after. You have no part in it.


 
Because God is the only one that can remove the Total Depravity.... Once you are shown your depravity and Salvation takes place, you will do what God commands of you.... atleast that is my experience...

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 11, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> *Where does faith and belief come from???


 

Yep, Who gives you the ability of faith and belief?  God.


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## Banjo (Mar 11, 2009)

farmasis said:


> But why would it matter if you knew or not? No reason to go to church, tithe, etc. You could keep all the stuff from the world while you were here and either burn or have paradise after. You have no part in it.



Come on, Farmasis....You know better than that.  

He who loves me, keeps my commandments.  True love produces obedience.


----------



## farmasis (Mar 11, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Because God is the only one that can remove the Total Depravity.... Once you are shown your depravity and Salvation takes place, you will do what God commands of you.... atleast that is my experience...
> 
> DB BB


 
If you are unconditionally elected, you can ignore God-- you got a free ride! 
Are you saying that you do everything God commands you? You do not have the power to reject him and do things that displease him?


----------



## farmasis (Mar 11, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Come on, Farmasis....You know better than that.
> 
> He who loves me, keeps my commandments. True love produces obedience.


 
Why love God if you are in the elect? Why keep his commandments?


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Mar 11, 2009)

farmasis said:


> If you are unconditionally elected, you can ignore God-- you got a free ride!
> Are you saying that you do everything God commands you? You do not have the power to reject him and do things that displease him?


 
Unconditional Election... means you are elected by nothing that you do.

I do everything I can in what God commands me to do... I do fail.. I am far from perfect....

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 11, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Why love God if you are in the elect? Why keep his commandments?


 

Because once you are Saved, your Heart changes... You no longer want to please yourself... you want to please God...

DB BB


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## celticfisherman (Mar 11, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Why love God if you are in the elect? Why keep his commandments?


Exodus 20:6 (New International Version)

6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

John 14:21 (New International Version)

21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."


Seems pretty clear. You will if you love him.


----------



## farmasis (Mar 11, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Unconditional Election... means you are elected by nothing that you do.


 
And, IMO that is not what the NT is about. Jesus asked us to choose him for a reason.




> I do everything I can in what God commands me to do... I do fail.. I am far from perfect....
> 
> DB BB


 
So grace is resistable?


----------



## farmasis (Mar 11, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Exodus 20:6 (New International Version)
> 
> 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.
> 
> ...


 
Yes, CF I agree. Just trying to show that is a choice.


----------



## celticfisherman (Mar 11, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Yes, CF I agree. Just trying to show that is a choice.



Where is a choice? There is nothing you can do here. No choice no decision to be made. God has chosen since the dawn of time. It is based on His divine will and justice. We cannot understand or know why just that he has.


----------



## Banjo (Mar 11, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Yes, CF I agree. Just trying to show that is a choice.



What is the choice?  Obedience or Salvation?  

Can we choose to be "unsaved?"


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 11, 2009)

farmasis said:


> So grace is resistable?


 
No, grace is not... but you will not walk a perfect life after you are Saved, you should strive to be perfect, but it will never happen...

DB BB


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## Lowjack (Mar 11, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Where does Faith and Belief come from????????
> 
> 1.  Matthew 6:30
> "But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith!
> ...


Faith and believe is the same thing.


----------



## farmasis (Mar 11, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> No, grace is not... but you will not walk a perfect life after you are Saved, you should strive to be perfect, but it will never happen...
> 
> DB BB


 
Shall I post the scriptures from the Bible that says it is?


 <SUP>18</SUP> For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-27944 value="19">19</SUP> because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown _it_ to them. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-27945 value="20">20</SUP> For since the creation of the world His invisible _attributes_ are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, _even_ His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-27946 value="21">21</SUP> because, although they knew God, they did not glorify _Him_ as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-27947 value="22">22</SUP> Professing to be wise, they became fools, <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-27948 value="23">23</SUP> and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 
<SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-27949 value="24">24</SUP> Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-27950 value="25">25</SUP> who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 
<SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-27951 value="26">26</SUP> For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-27952 value="27">27</SUP> Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. 
<SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-27953 value="28">28</SUP> And even as they did not like to retain God in _their_ knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-27954 value="29">29</SUP> being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,<SUP class=footnote value='[c]'>[c]</SUP> wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; _they are_ whisperers, <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-27955 value="30">30</SUP> backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-27956 value="31">31</SUP> undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,<SUP class=footnote value='[d]'>[d]</SUP> unmerciful; <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-27957 value="32">32</SUP> who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them. (Romans 1)


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## farmasis (Mar 11, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Where is a choice? There is nothing you can do here. No choice no decision to be made. God has chosen since the dawn of time. It is based on His divine will and justice. We cannot understand or know why just that he has.


 
 Exodus 20:6 (New International Version)

6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

('of those' is the ones that chose)

John 14:21 (New International Version)

21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

('Whoever' is the ones that chose.)


----------



## celticfisherman (Mar 11, 2009)

Personally I am not sure you made your point here. That is about God turning people over to their sin. 

Maybe I am missing something. Care to explain?


----------



## fivesolas (Mar 11, 2009)

> Shall I post the scriptures from the Bible that says it is?



Where do you see in those verses that those whom God determines to save can resist His will?


----------



## celticfisherman (Mar 11, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Exodus 20:6 (New International Version)
> 
> 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.
> 
> ...



No whoever has them...


----------



## fivesolas (Mar 11, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Personally I am not sure you made your point here. That is about God turning people over to their sin.
> 
> Maybe I am missing something. Care to explain?



I was going to say that too. It shows that God leaves some in their sin.


----------



## farmasis (Mar 11, 2009)

Banjo said:


> What is the choice? Obedience or Salvation?
> 
> Can we choose to be "unsaved?"


 
You know you can't. After salvation you are sealed until redemption.


----------



## farmasis (Mar 11, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Personally I am not sure you made your point here. That is about God turning people over to their sin.
> 
> Maybe I am missing something. Care to explain?


 
I am not sure how it gets any plainer...

who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-27944 value="19">19</SUP> because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown _it_ to them...

(God revealed the truth in them and they supressed it and he turned them over to their unrighteousness.)

....so that they are without excuse, <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-27946 value="21">21</SUP> because, although they knew God, they did not glorify _Him_ as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened....

(they knew God. God revelaed himself to them and they rejected him and he darkened their hearts.)

...<SUP>24</SUP> Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-27950 value="25">25</SUP> who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, 

(he gave them the truth and they chose to worship another)


----------



## celticfisherman (Mar 11, 2009)

Why did they chose? An unregenerate heart. How are our hearts regenerated??? Thru the Grace of God. His sheep will hear his voice. Many are called few are chosen.


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## gtparts (Mar 11, 2009)

I've watched this thread for 4 1/2 days, seeing the same old stuff.

I have come to one conclusion: Election makes no demands of the individual. If you are OUT, you are OUT. 

Likewise, if you are IN, you are IN. 


You do not have to love God, you do not have to confess your sins, you do not have to pray a "sinners prayer". None of these are considered acts of the individual will to choose. If you are elect, you will be forced by God to come around to His will for you to be saved, regardless of your will to remain lost.

This renders existence an exercise in futility. Que sera, sera. What will be, will be.

BTW, "confession" means to agree with God's judgment of our sinful condition. But "election" negates "confession" because it is an act of us willfully agreeing, which is an impossibility. Salvation is not any part of our own doing, and agreeing is doing.


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## farmasis (Mar 11, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Why did they chose? An unregenerate heart. How are our hearts regenerated??? Thru the Grace of God. His sheep will hear his voice. Many are called few are chosen.


 

Sorry, but no. 
The verse said God revealed himself to them and revealed the truth to them.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 11, 2009)

gtparts said:


> You do not have to love God, you do not have to confess your sins, you do not have to pray a "sinners prayer". None of these are considered acts of the individual will to choose. If you are elect, you will be forced by God to come around to His will for you to be saved, regardless of your will to remain lost.
> 
> This renders existence an exercise in futility. Que sera, sera. What will be, will be.
> 
> BTW, "confession" means to agree with God's judgment of our sinful condition. But "election" negates "confession" because it is an act of us willfully agreeing, which is an impossibility. Salvation is not any part of our own doing, and agreeing is doing.


 
This is where Total Depravity comes in... and I know you do not believe in Total Depravity...

DB BB


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## celticfisherman (Mar 11, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Sorry, but no.
> The verse said God revealed himself to them and revealed the truth to them.



So you do not believe in the total depravity of mankind?

Genesis 8:20-21

 20 Then Noah built an altar to the LORD and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it. 21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though [a] every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.


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## gtparts (Mar 11, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> This is where Total Depravity comes in... and I know you do not believe in Total Depravity...
> 
> DB BB


Does this mean that salvation is forced upon the elect? The elect have no choice and the non-elect have no choice. Regardless of what I do, my eternal end is already decided? I cannot influence where I spend eternity? So, what is the point of life,...... that is, God causing His creation to sweat it out whether they got lucky in the Divine Lottery or not?

Does any of this make sense?

Thanks, but I think I'll stick to the Bible and the Holy Spirit drawing and calling all men to salvation. I do not dispute that God initiates and provides everything to make possible the salvation of every individual soul. But, at some point that soul must be obedient or disobedient to God's calling, and that is a choice, my friend. If it is not made before regeneration (which I don't believe it can), it most certainly must be made after regeneration. So, you see, total depravity does have merit. Where I have the problem is reconciling the many passages of Scripture that support free will choice with the rest of the Calvinist package.

And, no, I'm not going to duke that one out......today.


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## Lowjack (Mar 11, 2009)

gtparts said:


> Does this mean that salvation is forced upon the elect? The elect have no choice and the non-elect have no choice. Regardless of what I do, my eternal end is already decided? I cannot influence where I spend eternity? So, what is the point of life,...... that is, God causing His creation to sweat it out whether they got lucky in the Divine Lottery or not?
> 
> Does any of this make sense?
> 
> ...


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 11, 2009)

gtparts said:


> Does this mean that salvation is forced upon the elect? The elect have no choice and the non-elect have no choice. Regardless of what I do, my eternal end is already decided? I cannot influence where I spend eternity? So, what is the point of life,...... that is, God causing His creation to sweat it out whether they got lucky in the Divine Lottery or not?
> 
> Does any of this make sense?
> 
> ...


 

Who better to choose who is Saved and who is Lost than God?

The only ones that know of the "Divine Lottery" as you call it would be the Elect. The others couldn't care less...

The regenerate heart wants to follow God, the unregenerate doesn't. If you say you are Saved and yet you don't follow God, then I would say the fruit don't match the profession...

How can someone who is "Dead" will anything?

DB BB


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## farmasis (Mar 11, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> So you do not believe in the total depravity of mankind?
> 
> Genesis 8:20-21
> 
> 20 Then Noah built an altar to the LORD and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it. 21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though [a] every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.


 
No. At least not in the way Calvinist interprete it. Man will generally (or ever) not seek God without God interveneing in his life via the Holy Spirit. Calvinist usually distort (in my opinion) to mean that we cannot choose God. IMO, this is not biblical. True man cannot by himself, neither can he save himself, but with the enabling of the Holy Spirit, he can choose God--and he can reject him. This is harmonized throughout the Bible.

*Mark 16:16* "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." 
*John 20:31* but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
*Acts 16:31 *So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."
*Romans 10:9* that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
*1 John 3:23* And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
*1 John 5:13* These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may [continue] [to] believe in the name of the Son of God. 
*Isaiah 45:22* "Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I [am] God, and [there] [is] no other."
*Mark 1:15* "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."
*Acts 17:30* "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent."
*Revelation 22:17* And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
*Matthew 11:28* "Come to Me, all [you] who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."
*John 7:37* On the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."​


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## celticfisherman (Mar 11, 2009)

farmasis said:


> No. At least not in the way Calvinist interprete it. Man will generally (or ever) not seek God without God interveneing in his life via the Holy Spirit. Calvinist usually distort (in my opinion) to mean that we cannot choose God. IMO, this is not biblical. True man cannot by himself, neither can he save himself, but with the enabling of the Holy Spirit, he can choose God--and he can reject him. This is harmonized throughout the Bible.
> 
> *Mark 16:16* "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."
> *John 20:31* but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
> ...



In my opinion quoting what you did and not refering back to the OT and the fall and the many many references is not biblical. Thus the reason I have a problem with Arminian theology.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 11, 2009)

gtparts said:


> I've watched this thread for 4 1/2 days, seeing the same old stuff.
> 
> I have come to one conclusion: Election makes no demands of the individual. If you are OUT, you are OUT.
> 
> ...



I see they've confused you as much as they have me.
If this were a Bible class, there wouldn't be many people here next Sunday.  
Very complicated.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 11, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> This is where Total Depravity comes in... and I know you do not believe in Total Depravity...
> 
> DB BB





Where do all these concepts come from?  

Total Depravity
Limited atonement
Unlimited atonement

Calvin???
Piper???

I got to start reading more so I can stay up on this Bible stuff.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 11, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Who better to choose who is Saved and who is Lost than God?
> 
> The only ones that know of the "Divine Lottery" as you call it would be the Elect. The others couldn't care less...
> 
> ...




Why do you believe the apostles, disciples, and missionaries today went all over the world teaching the Gospel????


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 11, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Where do all these concepts come from?
> 
> Total Depravity
> Limited atonement
> ...


 

Just do a search on "Doctorines of Grace" and you are bound to find them... it is TULIP.

Spurgeon has some great sermons on the Doctorines of Grace... You might want to put his name in the search as well...

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 11, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Why do you believe the apostles, disciples, and missionaries today went all over the world teaching the Gospel????


 

Because God commands it...

If God had given the Elect some sort of birth mark then it would be alot easier....



> If God would have painted a yellow stripe on the backs of the elect I would go around lifting shirts. But since He didn't I must preach `whosoever will' and when `whosoever' believes I know he is one of the elect.
> - C.H. Spurgeon


 
DB BB


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## farmasis (Mar 11, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Because God commands it...
> 
> If God had given the Elect some sort of birth mark then it would be alot easier....
> 
> ...


 
Again, why preach to the elect? Isn't that preaching to the choir? Do they need to repent? It doesn't matter if they have a yellow stripe, birth mark or not. It doesn't matter if they hear the gospel or not. It doesn't matter if they choose God or not. It doesn't matter if they obey his commandments, ask for forgiveness, etc, etc, etc,. If they are in, thay are in. No input needed from them on their behalf.


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## farmasis (Mar 11, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> In my opinion quoting what you did and not refering back to the OT and the fall and the many many references is not biblical. Thus the reason I have a problem with Arminian theology.


 
All I can say is Thus sayeth the Lord.... and the Lord says to choose him. I realize that is not possible without him choosing you first. But for the Lord to say choose him, then there must be another choice which is not choosing him.


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## Banjo (Mar 11, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Where do all these concepts come from?
> 
> Total Depravity
> Limited atonement
> ...




The Bible....


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## celticfisherman (Mar 11, 2009)

farmasis said:


> All I can say is Thus sayeth the Lord.... and the Lord says to choose him. I realize that is not possible without him choosing you first. But for the Lord to say choose him, then there must be another choice which is not choosing him.



Then man is perfectable. If man can make right decisions the Law alone would be enough.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 11, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Again, why preach to the elect? Isn't that preaching to the choir? Do they need to repent? It doesn't matter if they have a yellow stripe, birth mark or not. It doesn't matter if they hear the gospel or not. It doesn't matter if they choose God or not. It doesn't matter if they obey his commandments, ask for forgiveness, etc, etc, etc,. If they are in, thay are in. No input needed from them on their behalf.


 

Because even though they are an elect they need to hear the gospel...in order to become the elect... The non-elect will not come even if presented the Gospel, but that shouldn't stop us from presenting the gospel to everyone... God chooses who the Elect are... Who better to choose?

DB BB


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## farmasis (Mar 11, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Because even though they are an elect they need to hear the gospel...in order to become the elect... The non-elect will not come even if presented the Gospel, but that shouldn't stop us from presenting the gospel to everyone... God chooses who the Elect are... Who better to choose?
> 
> DB BB


 
God is limited to Calvinist preachers?

So, it is conditional election. They must hear first, not predestinated. What if they chose to not hear? What if they are deaf?


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## celticfisherman (Mar 11, 2009)

farmasis said:


> God is limited to Calvinist preachers?
> 
> So, it is conditional election. They must hear first, not predestinated. What if they chose to not hear? What if they are deaf?



Are you actually serious here?


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## gtparts (Mar 11, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Because even though they are an elect they need to hear the gospel...in order to become the elect... The non-elect will not come even if presented the Gospel, but that shouldn't stop us from presenting the gospel to everyone... God chooses who the Elect are... Who better to choose?








"Because even though they are an elect they need to hear the gospel...in order to become the elect... "



So if you get hurt and miss work, it wont hurt to miss work?


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## gtparts (Mar 11, 2009)

If you are a duck, you have to become a duck to be a duck.


Gotcha.....why didn't you just say so?


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## celticfisherman (Mar 11, 2009)

gtparts said:


> "Because even though they are an elect they need to hear the gospel...in order to become the elect... "
> 
> 
> 
> So if you get hurt and miss work, it wont hurt to miss work?



What's the matter does this Christ who will say to even those who have cast out demons in his name to get away for HE KNEW THEM NOT! Not fit the flower child in your avatar?


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## farmasis (Mar 11, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Are you actually serious here?


 
Very serious.

So, God set forth some to be saved, wether they want to or not, and that nothing they can do will stop that. He also set forth some that will die no matter what. But, they must first hear the gospel preached to be in the elect that he elected them into. 

CF, Why did Jesus have to die?


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## celticfisherman (Mar 11, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Very serious.
> 
> So, God set forth some to be saved, wether they want to or not, and that nothing they can do will stop that. He also set forth some that will die no matter what. But, they must first hear the gospel preached to be in the elect that he elected them into.
> 
> CF, Why did Jesus have to die?



Because he was the Lamb. 

You are proclaiming that the elect are perfect. And would live perfectly. That is not true or biblical.


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## farmasis (Mar 11, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Because he was the Lamb.
> 
> You are proclaiming that the elect are perfect. And would live perfectly. That is not true or biblical.


 
Not perfect, but if they were chosen to be saved... then why not justify them? Why send your son to die for those already chosen?

So, why did he have to come and die?

Why a new covenant?


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## celticfisherman (Mar 11, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Not perfect, but if they were chosen to be saved... then why not justify them? Why send your son to die for those already chosen?
> 
> So, why did he have to come and die?
> 
> Why a new covenant?



You are chasing your tail.


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## farmasis (Mar 11, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> You are chasing your tail.


 
Okie dokie........


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 12, 2009)

farmasis said:


> God is limited to Calvinist preachers?
> 
> So, it is conditional election. They must hear first, not predestinated. What if they chose to not hear? What if they are deaf?


 
You have got to be joking..

God Saves, God allows you, me, etc, to spread the Gospel for Him.

I know you are Saved... How do you know your choice was your choice? I mean it is clear that you are Saved, so I can look at you and ask you if you really think it was a choice that you made, then tell me how do you know that?

If you are predestined, you will hear, God will make sure of it. whether it be by sound, sign language, spanish, french, redneck... etc...

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 12, 2009)

gtparts said:


> "Because even though they are an elect they need to hear the gospel...in order to become the elect... "
> 
> 
> 
> So if you get hurt and miss work, it wont hurt to miss work?


 
See my reply to farmisis...

but you still didn't answer my question...

Who better to choose than God?

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 12, 2009)

gtparts said:


> If you are a duck, you have to become a duck to be a duck.
> 
> 
> Gotcha.....why didn't you just say so?


 

if you are Lost, you can't become Saved, without being Transformed by God.

Got it?

DB BB


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## celticfisherman (Mar 12, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> if you are Lost, you can't become Saved, without being Transformed by God.
> 
> Got it?
> 
> DB BB



Exodus 33
19 And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.


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## celticfisherman (Mar 15, 2009)

gemcgrew said:


> How can you tell DD with surety that Christ died for her and at the same time answer limited atonement?



Well. That is a good question. Christ died for those who will come to him. Like many have said we have no idea who that is. That is why we evangelize. She may or may not be one of the elect. I cannot know. So going by what we are told He died for her. 

Now at the day of Judgment we may find out different about many of us. Some of us we are sure are part of the elect may burn forever. And some we are sure will burn may live with Him in eternity. 

But short answer is. I do not know who the elect are. You should be able to tell those who have been transformed by the Spirit by their fruits but those yet to be transformed...


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## farmasis (Mar 15, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> if you are Lost, you can't become Saved, without being Transformed by God.
> 
> Got it?
> 
> DB BB


 
But, once God reveals himself and the truth, then you decide to believe it or not.


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## farmasis (Mar 15, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Christ died for those who will come to him. ...


 
My Bible says Christ died for all and for the whole world.

I like how Ronnie T put it a while back.

1. For all (1 Timothy 2:6; Isaiah 53:6).
2. For every man (Heb. 2:9).
3. For the world (John 3:16).
4. For the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).
5. For the ungodly (Rom. 5:6).
6. For false teachers (2 Peter 2:1).
7. For many (Matthew 20:28).
8. For Israel (John 11:50-51).
9. For the Church (Eph. 5:25).
10. For "me" (Gal. 2:20).


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