# .50 cal or .45 cal



## nwgahunter (Feb 18, 2010)

I am about to order a new CVA APEX in .243 and with the interchangeable barrels I am going to purchase a ML barrel for it in the near future.

So, I have the option of .50 or .45. I've always shot .50 because that is what is usually on the shelf. I think I've seen maybe 2 or 3 .45 cals at the local stores.

My question is which caliber would you go with other than the obvious. The obvious being there are more bullet options and pellets are more obtainable for .50 cal. I'm actually thinking about giving Blackhorn powder a try as well. I'll be doing standard woods hunting in GA and KY with normal shots from 25 to maybe 125 yds. 

So, give me your thoughts or questions if you have any. Much appreciated. Thanks NWGA


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## hawgrider1200 (Feb 18, 2010)

I'd get the 50 If it was me doing it, but I would not be buying a CVA either. I'd buy an Encore if I wanted a system with interchangable barrels, o wait I have one of those.


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## Flintrock (Feb 18, 2010)

I shoot a .45 cal patched round ball with no issues
but I have a .45 for target shooting and I can use it for deer hunting
If I was going to get another for primary deer hunting, I would go with atleast a .50 just to put a little more lead through it. 
I have never lost a deer but the 45 but it does not always pass through and not much of a blood trail.


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## redneckcamo (Feb 18, 2010)

I would get the 50 because----

 #1 I prefer it ! 

#2 there are more supplies/choices  available for the 50 where blackpowder stuff is sold ....


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## nwgahunter (Feb 18, 2010)

Thanks for the replies. I'm leaning to .50 cal but wanted to be sure I was still heading the right way.


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## golffreak (Feb 18, 2010)

.50

Supplies will be readily available.


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## FrontierGander (Feb 18, 2010)

great choice with the Apex, much better choice than an encore IMO.  I got the 50cal/30-06 combo, but waiting for it to come in.

50cal. - Why? some states require a .50cal as minimum for elk, should you ever want to hunt elk.

More bullet/sabot supplies out there for the .50cal


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## kvistads (Feb 18, 2010)

A 45 would be undersized if you're using sabots.  Minimum is 44 cal. for large game in GA.  I use a .45 flintlock with a patched round ball and stay legal.  The TC will be more designed for those funky sabots although you might consider using a power belt bullet in 45.  That would work for sure.  The .50 would actually be a .45 when using a sabot.


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## georgia_home (Feb 18, 2010)

i have got a 50 and a 54. i really like the 54 but you cant find stuff for it easily... or near as easy as a 50.

just in case the 45 stuff gets scarce, i'd recommend that you go with a 50. because it is easier to find stuff for!

there was a thread along this line recently, pointing out that 45 is more difficult to find than 50. about like comparing 30'06, and other "common rounds" to "xyz" wssssm. if you  get off the path, the wssssssm will also be harder to find.

good luck


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## Son (Feb 24, 2010)

.45 cal muzzleloader works well for me with Barnes bullets, drops em in their tracks, or if they run off there's a blood trail.  I tried powerbelt the first year I had the rifle, it killed deer, but they usually ran off and didn't leave a bloodtrail.
90 grains of powder has performed well up to 100 yards, that's the limit I put on myself. It's a CVA and with a scope, shoots a 2" group at 100 yards. I have three 50's and don't use em anymore. 45 supplies are not available in most stores, you'll find em in gun shops though.


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## nwgahunter (Feb 25, 2010)

Son said:


> .45 cal muzzleloader works well for me with Barnes bullets, drops em in their tracks, or if they run off there's a blood trail.  I tried powerbelt the first year I had the rifle, it killed deer, but they usually ran off and didn't leave a bloodtrail.
> 90 grains of powder has performed well up to 100 yards, that's the limit I put on myself. It's a CVA and with a scope, shoots a 2" group at 100 yards. I have three 50's and don't use em anymore. 45 supplies are not available in most stores, you'll find em in gun shops though.



Thanks Son for the info. The availability of product is my only concern. I've used .50 since I started ML hunting in 87 but I was thinking about .45 since it was a bit smaller for my 8 year old to shoot as well. May give him another year or so before I give the ML a try with him.


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## LOVEMYLABXS (Feb 25, 2010)

Nw I'd go with the 50 for most of the reason stated above and if you do go after bigger game you're set. As far your 8 year old shooting it you can always down size the powder and go with fewer grains. I let Rebecca shoot my Hawkins with 60 and she was fine with it and at 80 yards open sights well a picture says a 1000 words   (little hole 22 from a different day she weren't happy with that days shoot   ) With you buying one with interchangeable barrels I can imagine there is a lot of difference in the size of a 45 and a 50 cal barrel in length or weight (some weight but what a pound maybe?).


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## hawgrider1200 (Feb 25, 2010)

LOVEMYLABXS said:


> I'd go with the 50 I let Rebecca shoot my Hawkins with 60 and she was fine with it and at 80 yards open sights well a picture says a 1000 words   With you buying one with interchangeable barrels I can imagine there is a lot of difference in the size of a 45 and a 50 cal barrel in length or weight (some weight but what a pound maybe?).


This may shock you but most of the interchangable barrel systems have the same od on the barrel only the ID is different. This would cause a 45 to actually outweigh the 50 cal. Weight is good though helps reduce felt recoil.


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## LOVEMYLABXS (Feb 25, 2010)

hawgrider1200 said:


> This may shock you but most of the interchangable barrel systems have the same od on the barrel only the ID is different. This would cause a 45 to actually outweigh the 50 cal. Weight is good though helps reduce felt recoil.



Thanks HG now that I'm home and read this I looked at my 45 Hawkins and as you say it looks just about the same OD as my 50 (never thought about that )  but isn't the recoil in a black powder gun more of a slow push then say a smokeless? Wouldn't down sizin the powder charge help in recoil regardless of the weight ?  I only ask this cause some day I hope Rebecca would maybe like to try to take a deer. I don't see us buyin another gun cause I already have 2 Hawkins (one 45 and one 50) and both are ruffly the same size in lenght. I have given it thought of having the 45 cut down to fit her but then having to up the powder charge to make it shoot with the same velocity as the 50 for penitration make it kick harder? I'm not real familiar with the interchangeable guns would it be cheaper to buy a stock to fit his son then another barrel if he decide he wants to hunt bigger game? 

Thanks 
Mike


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## hawgrider1200 (Feb 25, 2010)

LOVEMYLABXS said:


> Thanks HG now that I'm home and read this I looked at my 45 Hawkins and as you say it looks just about the same OD as my 50 (never thought about that )  but isn't the recoil in a black powder gun more of a slow push then say a smokeless? Wouldn't down sizin the powder charge help in recoil regardless of the weight ?  I only ask this cause some day I hope Rebecca would maybe like to try to take a deer. I don't see us buyin another gun cause I already have 2 Hawkins (one 45 and one 50) and both are ruffly the same size in lenght. I have given it thought of having the 45 cut down to fit her but then having to up the powder charge to make it shoot with the same velocity as the 50 for penitration make it kick harder? I'm not real familiar with the interchangeable guns would it be cheaper to buy a stock to fit his son then another barrel if he decide he wants to hunt bigger game?
> 
> Thanks
> Mike



In answer to the question of the recoil from a muzzleloader, yes I would say the recoil is as u describe more like a push than jolt of a "smokeless"  yes, the recoil is directly dependant on size of bullet and grains of powder. No, to having to use more powder for the same velocity. The bullet in the 45 cal is lighter so velocity at the muzzle might be higher with less powder charge than a 50. I have a chart in a book, that would tell all this. in a 32 inch 45 cal barrel a 50 grain charge will push a round ball 1630fps. the same length barrel in 50 cal with a 50 grain powder charge will push a round ball 1445fps. that 45 will have less felt recoil because the barrel is slightly heavier and u r pushing less weight out of the muzzle. I seem to remember that the energy at 100 yds is listed somewhere in the book. i'll  try to find it.


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## hawgrider1200 (Feb 25, 2010)

found a chart for energy at muzzle, this will require calculations. 1440fps =4.60 ft/lb per grain of bullet weight. 1630fps=5.9ft/lb per grain of bullet weight. 45 cal round ball = 0.445 weight 133 grains. 50 cal =0.495 weight 180 grains

50cal 50 grain powder charge =828 ft lbs energy at the muzzle
45 cal 50 grain powder charge = 784.7 ft lbs energy at the muzzle


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## LOVEMYLABXS (Feb 25, 2010)

Thanks for the info HG 

I guess my next ? would be if shooting a 45 at 1600 and a 50 at 1400 would you want a larger sized bullet on larger game caring a little more thump then a smaller sized one going faster? I know in waterfowl hunting we are after speed cause speed kills when it comes to geese because we have to shoot a lighter weight pellet using steel? I think what I'm asking if he needs a gun for 2 different shooters what do you give up speed or the end thump just incase he wants to hunt bigger game? I think if it were me I'd go with finding   and changing stocks in his case that fits each one of them and down sizing powder loads rather then buying 2 barrels .  But if he's just going to hunt deer sized game ther ain't nothing wrong with going with the 45.


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## Retired Army Guy (Feb 25, 2010)

I have a 45 just because I wanted to be different.  Supplies are limited but not impossible.  Use the Barnes all copper bullets; if you use anything else your going to have penetration issues.


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## hawgrider1200 (Feb 25, 2010)

LOVEMYLABXS said:


> Thanks for the info HG
> 
> I guess my next ? would be if shooting a 45 at 1600 and a 50 at 1400 would you want a larger sized bullet on larger game caring a little more thump then a smaller sized one going faster? I know in waterfowl hunting we are after speed cause speed kills when it comes to geese because we have to shoot a lighter weight pellet using steel? I think what I'm asking if he needs a gun for 2 different shooters what do you give up speed or the end thump just incase he wants to hunt bigger game? I think if it were me I'd go with finding   and changing stocks in his case that fits each one of them and down sizing powder loads rather then buying 2 barrels .  But if he's just going to hunt deer sized game ther ain't nothing wrong with going with the 45.


believe there are two different schools of thought on that issue, One school that a lot of folks hold to is that the heavier bullet weights retain more energy at longer ranges. One school that fewer hold to is that the  lighter bullets retain more speed at longer distance and therefore have more energy upon reaching the target.  Not being an expert on the subject matter I'd research the issue for myself b4 I made up my mind on the issue. My uneducated opinion is that the lighter bullets hit harder at shorter ranges. Since I only shoot my muzzleloader at short range I'd be inclined to go with a lighter projectile if recoil was an issue. I actually use a 54 cal with a conical bullet. Heavy bullet! I have no issue with the recoil from the 54 with 350 grain bullets and 110 grains of powder driving them down range. I know there are lots of folks that do the same when hunting.


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## hawgrider1200 (Feb 25, 2010)

*cut and paste job*

see the link http://pages.sssnet.com/go2erie/muzzle.htm
Don't forget that the muzzle energy produced by most muzzle loading rifles will drop from half to a third at 100 yards. In other words, a rifle that has 1000 ft. lbs. of energy at the muzzle will only have 300 to 500 ft. lbs. at 100 yards.
Here's a couple loads for the 45 caliber fans. 


BULLET 45 caliber, 285 grain HP maxistyle, Black Powder* = 85 grains FFg 

 Muzzle  50 yds.  100 yds.  150 yds.  200 yds. 
Ft. per Sec.  1550  1363 1209  1094  1013  
FootPounds Energy  1520  1175  925  757  649  
Traj: 100 yds zero  -0.75  2.0  0.0  -7.7  -23.0  


BULLET 45 caliber, 325 grain RN maxistyle, Black Powder* = 85 grains FFg

 Muzzle  50 yds.  100 yds.  150 yds.  200 yds.  
Ft. per Sec.  1500  1363  1244  1147  1072  
FootPounds Energy  1624  1341  1117  950  830  
Traj: 100 yds zero  -0.8  1.8  0.0  -7.7  -21.9  




Here are some more 50 caliber ballistics. The trajectory charts are interesting. These are black powder loads. 


BULLET 50 caliber, 385 grain HP maxistyle, Black Powder* = 90 grains FFg 

 Muzzle  50 yds.  100 yds.  150 yds.  200 yds.  
Ft. per Sec.  1400  1230  1103  1015  951  
FootPounds Energy  1675  1292  1039  881  772  
Traj: 100 yds zero  -0.75  2.5  0.0  -9.6  -27.5  


BULLET 50 caliber, 410 grain RN maxistyle, Black Powder* = 90 grains FFg

 Muzzle  50 yds.  100 yds.  150 yds.  200 yds.  
Ft. per Sec.  1400  1273  1168  1086  1023  
FootPounds Energy  1784  1475  1241  1073  953  
Traj: 100 yds zero  -0.8  2.3  0.0  -8.7  -24.6

bottom line from what I see in these charts the heavier bullets would b more effective at distance.


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## tv_racin_fan (Feb 25, 2010)

Hawg I believe conventional wisdom claims that for round ball the energy retained is directly related to caliber. Thus a 50 caliber load will retain 50% of it's energy at 100 yards and a 45 only 45% which would tend to explain why before conicals came to general usage they liked bigger bores for longer ranges.


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## Marlin_444 (Feb 26, 2010)

tv_racin_fan said:


> Hawg I believe conventional wisdom claims that for round ball the energy retained is directly related to caliber. Thus a 50 caliber load will retain 50% of it's energy at 100 yards and a 45 only 45% which would tend to explain why before conicals came to general usage they liked bigger bores for longer ranges.



Exactly why I am going with a .54 Caliber this season...  

Just call me a BIG BORE 

Shoot what you like!

I've shot a .45 and a .50, heck even a .58 too...

Time to try something new...  

A .54, had one; never shot it (Thanks again Eddy M)...  

Gonna hunt it this season!!!


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## nwgahunter (Feb 26, 2010)

Wow! You guys know your stuff...The .45 being heavier makes a ton of sense. I'll get a .50 and just drop the charge for him.

Thanks!


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## tv_racin_fan (Feb 26, 2010)

Aw shoot sir we don't know nuffin but we might have stayed at a Holiday Innn once.

Seriously, the 50 cal will do nicely if you just drop the charge to something he can handle and when it comes time to hunt reduce his range according to the charge he is using. You can either use the numbers Hawg gave for the energy calculation or come back here once you have hit upon a load and ask about it and someone can calculate the numbers then. Or you could always get yourself a book like the Lyman Black Powder Handbook or the Black Powder Guide by George C Nonte jr. Or just go here...  http://pages.sssnet.com/go2erie/muzzle.htm

You might want to cut the stock to fit him.


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## hawgrider1200 (Feb 26, 2010)

*I know nothing!!!!!*



tv_racin_fan said:


> Aw shoot sir we don't know nuffin but we might have stayed at a Holiday Innn once.
> 
> Seriously, the 50 cal will do nicely if you just drop the charge to something he can handle and when it comes time to hunt reduce his range according to the charge he is using. You can either use the numbers Hawg gave for the energy calculation or come back here once you have hit upon a load and ask about it and someone can calculate the numbers then. Or you could always get yourself a book like the Lyman Black Powder Handbook or the Black Powder Guide by George C Nonte jr. Or just go here...  http://pages.sssnet.com/go2erie/muzzle.htm
> 
> You might want to cut the stock to fit him.



That information can be found in books and on the web. It is accessable to all. I sure do not have all that knowledge stored up in my little tiny brain.


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