# This Egyptian atheist is incredibly brave



## atlashunter (Feb 24, 2015)

Literally putting his life at risk by stating his conscience on public television in Egypt. He was later chased by a lynch mob to a police station. The police attacked him and his wife and did nothing about the people they were running from.


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## ambush80 (Feb 24, 2015)

atlashunter said:


> Literally putting his life at risk by stating his conscience on public television in Egypt. He was later chased by a lynch mob to a police station. The police attacked him and his wife and did nothing about the people they were running from.




That's what gets me about the folks in the Political Forum when they say thing like "Where are all the moderate, good Muslims?  Why don't they get involved?"  

If they speak out they get dead.


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## atlashunter (Feb 24, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> That's what gets me about the folks in the Political Forum when they say thing like "Where are all the moderate, good Muslims?  Why don't they get involved?"
> 
> If they speak out they get dead.



It's a fair question though when you're asking it of coreligionists. If you look at some of the widely held views of "moderate" muslims you have to question what that even means.


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## ambush80 (Feb 24, 2015)

atlashunter said:


> It's a fair question though when you're asking it of coreligionists. If you look at some of the widely held views of "moderate" muslims you have to question what that even means.



I'm kin by wedlock to some Turks.  They don't support killing in the name of Allah.  None of them.  Not even the ones still in Turkey.  I would call most of them moderate and some progressive.  

Even though my Sister in Law lives in Vancouver, she feels that speaking out against ISIS might endanger her family.

She's non-political.


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## 660griz (Feb 24, 2015)

I believe there is a fine line between brave and crazy. This guy is crazy. If I lived over there, I would fake belief with the best of them...until I could leave. Just isn't worth it. Heck, it took me a long time to tell folks even in the bible belt. Worse that happens here is you are talked about and may not get a promotion.


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## atlashunter (Feb 24, 2015)

660griz said:


> I believe there is a fine line between brave and crazy. This guy is crazy. If I lived over there, I would fake belief with the best of them...until I could leave. Just isn't worth it. Heck, it took me a long time to tell folks even in the bible belt. Worse that happens here is you are talked about and may not get a promotion.



That is true. Wouldn't surprise me if he gets killed. That guy across from him looks so hateful.


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## atlashunter (Feb 24, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> I'm kin by wedlock to some Turks.  They don't support killing in the name of Allah.  None of them.  Not even the ones still in Turkey.  I would call most of them moderate and some progressive.
> 
> Even though my Sister in Law lives in Vancouver, she feels that speaking out against ISIS might endanger her family.
> 
> She's non-political.



Many are against ISIS. How many are against blasphemy laws? How many support death for apostates?


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## ambush80 (Feb 24, 2015)

atlashunter said:


> Many are against ISIS. How many are against blasphemy laws? How many support death for apostates?



The number's higher than the rest of us should be comfortable with.


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## 660griz (Feb 25, 2015)

atlashunter said:


> Many are against ISIS. How many are against blasphemy laws? How many support death for apostates?



Yep. When questioned about their beliefs, I haven't heard a Muslim yet, that didn't reach a 'crazy' factor eventually. 

Scary.


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## ambush80 (Feb 25, 2015)

660griz said:


> Yep. When questioned about their beliefs, I haven't heard a Muslim yet, that didn't reach a 'crazy' factor eventually.
> 
> Scary.




Maybe you don't know enough of them.


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## 660griz (Feb 25, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> Maybe you don't know enough of them.



True. Or, maybe I know too many.
Or, maybe you don't know enough of them. 

What is a good sample rate?


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## ambush80 (Feb 25, 2015)

660griz said:


> True. Or, maybe I know too many.
> Or, maybe you don't know enough of them.
> 
> What is a good sample rate?



I don't know.  Maybe we just know different kinds.


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## 660griz (Feb 25, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> I don't know.  Maybe we just know different kinds.



Could be. It is good to know there is a family of moderates out there. I just think they are a very small minority. I hope that isn't true but...

"Majorities of Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan support the death penalty for leaving Islam."

Based on the 2013 Pew Research Center report, are 88% of Muslims in Egypt and 62% of Muslims in Pakistan favor the death penalty for people who leave the Muslim religion.


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## ambush80 (Feb 25, 2015)

660griz said:


> Could be. It is good to know there is a family of moderates out there. I just think they are a very small minority. I hope that isn't true but...
> 
> "Majorities of Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan support the death penalty for leaving Islam."
> 
> Based on the 2013 Pew Research Center report, are 88% of Muslims in Egypt and 62% of Muslims in Pakistan favor the death penalty for people who leave the Muslim religion.



Yeah.  It's like they're Christians during the Dark Ages.


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## 660griz (Feb 25, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> Yeah.  It's like they're Christians during the Dark Ages.



Exactly.


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## atlashunter (Feb 25, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> I don't know.  Maybe we just know different kinds.



I've known and worked with many muslims. Many are decent people on an individual level. At the same time, have you noticed the difference between muslims when they are in a small minority and muslims in a majority?


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## atlashunter (Feb 25, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> Yeah.  It's like they're Christians during the Dark Ages.



Or muslims during the dark ages...


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## ambush80 (Feb 25, 2015)

atlashunter said:


> I've known and worked with many muslims. Many are decent people on an individual level. At the same time, have you noticed the difference between muslims when they are in a small minority and muslims in a majority?



Kinda like liberals at deer camp?


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## mattuga (Feb 25, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> Kinda like liberals at deer camp?



Holy cow, that is funny.  I was thinking about that the other day.  I wonder what goes thru the head of a member/guest that is a progressive liberal in a GA deer camp.


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## 660griz (Feb 25, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> Kinda like liberals at deer camp?



So true. We have an Obama/Union supporter at camp. We have a couple of them. They are nice and mostly incognito.
They just walk away when we start our late night drunken rants.


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## ambush80 (Feb 25, 2015)

mattuga said:


> Holy cow, that is funny.  I was thinking about that the other day.  I wonder what goes thru the head of a member/guest that is a progressive liberal in a GA deer camp.



"Hold your tongue."  I consider myself moderate but I find myself doing just that.  Sometimes. Depending on if it's a new camp of strangers or not.


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## ambush80 (Feb 25, 2015)

660griz said:


> So true. We have an Obama/Union supporter at camp. We have a couple of them. They are nice and mostly incognito.
> They just walk away when we start our late night drunken rants.



With my hawg huntin' buddies that I've know for years I join in and say the most ridiculous conservative thing I can think to say, often resulting in a round of "Heck Yeah!!!"'s and high fives.  (And more drinks)


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## WaltL1 (Feb 25, 2015)

660griz said:


> So true. We have an Obama/Union supporter at camp. We have a couple of them. They are nice and mostly incognito.
> They just walk away when we start our late night drunken rants.


I know how they feel. Its why I generally avoid political discussions. Im planted firmly in the middle. I think the whole Republican vs. Democrat and vice versa is the precise reason the way things are the way they are and why they don't change. I believe both sides have us bent over and we make sure it stays that way.
So no matter what I say Im going to get blasted from one side or the other


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## ambush80 (Feb 25, 2015)

WaltL1 said:


> I know how they feel. Its why I generally avoid political discussions. Im planted firmly in the middle. I think the whole Republican vs. Democrat and vice versa is the precise reason the way things are the way they are and why they don't change. I believe both sides have us bent over and we make sure it stays that way.
> So no matter what I say Im going to get blasted from one side or the other



Someone brought up the question one time, I think it was Artful about whether deists detest other deists that believe in a different god or atheists more.  I think interestingly it might be that same for politics.  But think it through.  On a continuum, if you're on one extreme or the other, who is more like you?  Who do you have more in common with?  Someone on the opposite side or someone in the middle?

I heard it said once that extreme fundamentalist Christians have the most fear of extreme Muslims because they understand what's going on in their heads.  They know what it feels like to be utterly devout to the point of doing something koo koo.  Someone in the middle just sees two ends of koo koo.

Detest might be a strong word.


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## JB0704 (Feb 26, 2015)

I've thought a lot for the last few days about asking this.....but, curiosity has got the better of me here......isn't being martyred in the name of atheism somewhat counter to the whole idea?


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## j_seph (Feb 26, 2015)

How many Muslims are members of this forum?


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## WaltL1 (Feb 26, 2015)

JB0704 said:


> I've thought a lot for the last few days about asking this.....but, curiosity has got the better of me here......isn't being martyred in the name of atheism somewhat counter to the whole idea?


Havent thought this through but "martyred" isn't defined as only being a "religious" term.


> 2. One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief, cause, or principle.


Certainly religion falls within that but its pretty wide open.


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## WaltL1 (Feb 26, 2015)

j_seph said:


> How many Muslims are members of this forum?


None that have identified themselves as being such that I know of.


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## ambush80 (Feb 26, 2015)

WaltL1 said:


> None that have identified themselves as being such that I know of.



I don't know of any.  I'd love to know.  Maybe start an anonymous poll.


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## JB0704 (Feb 26, 2015)

WaltL1 said:


> Havent thought this through but "martyred" isn't defined as only being a "religious" term.
> 
> Certainly religion falls within that but its pretty wide open.



I understand that, MLK was martyred for a social cause.

I am thinking more about the fact that atheism is more non-belief than belief.  I'm trying to figure out a way to phrase this.......

I know atheists will fight and die for their country, family, etc.  I just have trouble understanding why one would fight and die for a non-belief?  It seems atheism rejects universal principles (not saying they are unprincipled, just that they do not apply those principles to others), which makes me wonder why it would be something to die for.

Unless one determines to die for the right to be atheist, then the argument can be made that everybody who died in the American revolution did the same, indirectly.


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## bullethead (Feb 26, 2015)

JB0704 said:


> I understand that, MLK was martyred for a social cause.
> 
> I am thinking more about the fact that atheism is more non-belief than belief.  I'm trying to figure out a way to phrase this.......
> 
> ...


Maybe out of principal. And or to make a point. 
I don't think he necessarily wanted to be killed but understands that may happen for thinking any other way than the Muslim way...or probably in this case the radical Muslim way. Maybe he figured this was a good time to announce it publicly and hope for the best.


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## WaltL1 (Feb 26, 2015)

JB0704 said:


> I understand that, MLK was martyred for a social cause.
> 
> I am thinking more about the fact that atheism is more non-belief than belief.  I'm trying to figure out a way to phrase this.......
> 
> ...


I'm not 100% sure I understand your question so I will ask a question back -


> I just have trouble understanding why one would fight and die for a non-belief?


And of course this is a hypothetical question -
If you Christians decided to get all militant and overthrow the government and implement total Christian law, would you then understand the Atheist fighting and dying to oppose that?
Is my question along the lines of what you are asking or will it lead us in a different direction?


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## JB0704 (Feb 26, 2015)

WaltL1 said:


> And of course this is a hypothetical question -
> If you Christians decided to get all militant and overthrow the government and implement total Christian law, would you then understand the Atheist fighting and dying to oppose that?
> Is my question along the lines of what you are asking or will it lead us in a different direction?



I understand the question, and I think that more addresses my later point......it would be a fight for freedom, not atheism.

This Egyptian fella is "coming out of the skeptic closet" in a way that he knows is not safe.  What is the goal of taking this risk?  If "freedom," then that is understandable.  If the advancement of atheism, then I don't.


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## JB0704 (Feb 26, 2015)

And, like I said......I am having difficulty articulating my thoughts here.....they make sense to me before I type them.


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## WaltL1 (Feb 26, 2015)

JB0704 said:


> I understand the question, and I think that more addresses my later point......it would be a fight for freedom, not atheism.
> 
> This Egyptian fella is "coming out of the skeptic closet" in a way that he knows is not safe.  What is the goal of taking this risk?  If "freedom," then that is understandable.  If the advancement of atheism, then I don't.


I actually didn't watch the video and maybe I should to better understand your question. My fault, I didn't realize your question was related to the video.
And again without watching the video -


> If "freedom," then that is understandable.  If the advancement of atheism, then I don't.


Seems like one can be tied to the other. 2 birds with one stone so to speak.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 26, 2015)

I was reading an article how black atheist are coming out of the closet. Black people are more religious than white people in America. Why would they feel a need to come out?
Why do people protest anything? Freedom?
Maybe living in a closet for years, people just get tired of it. It's almost like lying. Never being able to speak your mind.


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## ambush80 (Feb 27, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> I was reading an article how black atheist are coming out of the closet. Black people are more religious than white people in America. Why would they feel a need to come out?
> Why do people protest anything? Freedom?
> Maybe living in a closet for years, people just get tired of it. It's almost like lying. Never being able to speak your mind.




Link?


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 27, 2015)

It’s well known by now that African-Americans as a community are the most religious ethnic community in America.

Say hello to the Black atheists. Profiled in a recent New York Times article, the African-American atheist community is growing, and some say they wish to remain silent no more. 

http://www.bet.com/news/national/2011/11/28/the-rise-of-black-atheists.html


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