# From the Florida Wildlife Commission - GROUPER MISTAKE



## Capt. Richie Lott (Jul 17, 2009)

Quoted from the FWC: 

If the fish — filleted on the dock of Bay City Lodge and toted back, vacuum-packed, to kitchen tables in Kansas and Alabama — turns out to be a goliath, then it could subject the four men who caught it to second-degree misdemeanors, punishable by up to 60 days in jail and a fine of up to $500.

After their dramatic decline in the 1970s and 1980s, goliath grouper became protected in 1990. State law requires the fish be "immediately returned to the water free, alive and unharmed," although temporary possession for measuring purposes is allowed.

Duval said it also is conceivable the men could be prosecuted for violating the Lacey Act, a federal law which makes it a felony to transport illegally harvested fish across state lines.

Billy Daniels, the Birmingham, Ala., businessman who led the fishing expedition, said he was contacted Tuesday by the FWC, and is cooperating, but declined further comment.

"I think it’s just too early," he said.

Daniels said his son, Shawn Daniels, caught the fish in about 80 feet of water and that the men examined it carefully before determining they could haul it into their 23-foot boat.

"Anybody who can see the carcass can figure it out easily," said Lou Bullock, a fisheries biologist with FWC’s Fish and Wildlife Research Institute in St. Petersburg.

The number and lengths of the spines on the dorsal fin easily distinguish the two species of fish, he said


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## Jranger (Jul 17, 2009)

Sounds like it's gonna be an expensive trip to me...


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## FishingAddict (Jul 17, 2009)

Hope they don't throw the book at them. It was obviously an honest (even if it was stupid) mistake- they would not have posted pics on forums and reported it to the press if they thought it was a Warsaw.

That being said, I'm sure they will get some sort of fine...otherwise others will duplicate intentional "mistakes" to get away with it.


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## Capt. Richie Lott (Jul 17, 2009)

Man, I hope they don't get the Lacey act nailed on em'.... No one deserves a felony over a fish ID mistake. Hopefully, they'll get a pass this round....


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## Dustin Pate (Jul 17, 2009)

I agree that they felony's shouldn't be handed out. That is absurd...but just looking at the pictures it sure didn't look like a warsaw.


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## caught (Jul 17, 2009)

Dustin Pate said:


> I agree that they felony's shouldn't be handed out. That is absurd...but just looking at the pictures it sure didn't look like a warsaw.



I agree unless they took the scissors to the tail. Sounds crazy but Ive heard people have tried it before and been nailed. That shows they knew the law and just decided to break it.


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## diamondback (Jul 17, 2009)

just like if you kill a big deer,better off to keep your mouth shut about it.legal or not some people will try to put you under a microscope.Think I would say that the photo was a hoax and there never was a fish.


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## t k (Jul 17, 2009)

I found these pictures on another board.It doesn't look good.I would hate to see them charged with a felony for an honest mistake,but I would expect to see them punished if it is found to be a goliath.


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## caught (Jul 17, 2009)

diamondback said:


> just like if you kill a big deer,better off to keep your mouth shut about it.legal or not some people will try to put you under a microscope.Think I would say that the photo was a hoax and there never was a fish.



I would agree that its never a good idea to brag about breaking the law!


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## The Captain (Jul 17, 2009)

Its a gloiath, my family owned a fleet of deep sea party boats in PC for many years, warsaws have long spines and mouths and head smaller to the size of the body.


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## dawg2 (Jul 17, 2009)

Dustin Pate said:


> I agree that they felony's shouldn't be handed out. That is absurd...but just looking at the pictures it sure didn't look like a warsaw.


No, it did not look like a Warsaw.  I always thought it looked like a Goliath / Jewfish.  If they get hit with the Lacey Act, they will really see some problems


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## dawg2 (Jul 17, 2009)

caught said:


> I agree unless they took the scissors to the tail. Sounds crazy but Ive heard people have tried it before and been nailed. That shows they knew the law and just decided to break it.



Well that is only one part.  How do they add the longer dorsal fin of a Warsaw?


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## caught (Jul 17, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> Well that is only one part.  How do they add the longer dorsal fin of a Warsaw?



or number of dorsal spines, or color, or girth........couldnt tell you. I guess thats why they are not getting away with it.


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## Capt. Richie Lott (Jul 17, 2009)




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## dawg2 (Jul 17, 2009)

Capt. Richie Lott said:


>



That stuff will make you fat as a Jewfish


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## FishingAddict (Jul 18, 2009)

Is it me, or does a goliath hung up like that look like a huge largemouth??


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## Bubba_1122 (Jul 18, 2009)

FishingAddict said:


> Is it me, or does a goliath hung up like that look like a huge largemouth??


Gotta agree. 

I was thinking ol George Perry had finally been knocked off his throne after 77 years.


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## Capt. Richie Lott (Jul 18, 2009)

It loks JUST like large mouth hung up there on that back hoe.... I was noticing that earlier... Since we all don't get to see a Goliath hanging up everyday, I HAD NO IDEA! Looks just like a Bass.


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## MERCing (Jul 18, 2009)

update in the newspaper contains this:



> But Dr. Christopher C. Koenig, an expert on goliath grouper who teaches at the Florida State University Coastal and Marine Laboratory in St. Teresa, said he has studied the picture and believes the fish was legal.
> 
> "If I were to bet, I would bet on a Warsaw, but it’s very unusual to catch them that shallow," he said, noting the fish typically is found on the shelf slope in water 300 to 400 feet deep.
> 
> ...




  I don't know much about either of those fish but it sure looks like a Goliath to me when comparing the features and structure of the examples in the _side by side_ pics.
  If it turns out to be a Goliath, my guess is they'll toss the book at these guys since it has been so widely publicized.


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## Spurhunter1 (Jul 18, 2009)

Warsaw( I MEAN GOLIATH!) all the way. Look at the structure of the gill-plates, the bend at the top of the head. This dont look good at all.


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## shortround1 (Jul 18, 2009)

Capt. Richie Lott said:


>


x2! i would not spear a fish that size no matter what kind it was, it was certain they were out for eating fish. no way i am going to spear a fish that intends to beat me out of my money!


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## MERCing (Jul 18, 2009)

> Warsaw all the way. Look at the structure of the gill-plates, the bend at the top of the head. This dont look good at all.



Really ??

The bend in the back of the head looks more like the Goliath's. The gill plates also look like a Goliath.
Comparing the pics, I wouldn't even question it and would say Goliath all the way, lol.
Maybe these ageing eyes are playing tricks on me 

I agree on it not looking good for them though. They may want to try something like this->


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## caught (Jul 18, 2009)

shortround1 said:


> x2! i would not spear a fish that size no matter what kind it was, it was certain they were out for eating fish. no way i am going to spear a fish that intends to beat me out of my money!



The only fish of the 3 that was speared was the one on the left. It was taken in nearly 400 feet of water by the commercial spearfisherman standing beside it. Not trying to be the board expert but my avatar pic was taken on the same boat. The only thing more amazing than the fish he harvested was the depth at which he did it. I seriously doubt he will ever take any other large warsaw. The fish house got alot of complaints about the meat from that one.


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## Jranger (Jul 18, 2009)

Maybe it's a world record hybrid cross?


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## germag (Jul 18, 2009)

I'm thinking those boys have some bumpy patches ahead of them.....


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## swamp hunter (Jul 18, 2009)

I catch lot,s of them Jewfish. Sure wish I could keep one . Shame to cut a 75/100 LB. Grouper loose.Kinda like passing on bucks under 150 BC. , And all you got was 4 Trout  in the box. Had one gut hooked and dead a few years back . Cost me $350 . We,re over ran with them fish.


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## PaulD (Jul 19, 2009)

There are a lot of questions surrounding this situation and a lot of questions that need to be asked of the men and ourselves.
I'm not going to comment on what species it is, I want to see what the principle of people will be in their casting of stones here.

Are these guys educated about the fishery enough to make the proper ID of the fish?

Was it done intentionally if they believed it to be a "Goliath Grouper"?

Will the Government and special interest groups seek to make an example of these fisherman if brought to trial?

Lot of stuff going on here fella's. We need to keep an eye on this.


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## germag (Jul 19, 2009)

PaulD said:


> There are a lot of questions surrounding this situation and a lot of questions that need to be asked of the men and ourselves.
> I'm not going to comment on what species it is, I want to see what the principle of people will be in their casting of stones here.
> 
> Are these guys educated about the fishery enough to make the proper ID of the fish?
> ...



I hate to see it. I think these fellas are probably in some trouble, but if I had to make a wager I'd say it was most likely an honest mistake (if it was a goliath). I think that since they already have the public's attention on this, they will try to make an example.

In reality, by the letter of the law, it doesn't matter if it was a mistake or not. The fish and game laws are the only ones where criminal intent is not a necessity in making a case and prosecuting it. I've always thought that was a problem....people being people we make mistakes. If there was no evidence of intent to break a law, I don't think it should be prosecuted....there are plenty of clear-cut cases (such as the Georgia "fishermen" caught in Louisiana last year with over 400 red snapper) without hammering honest people over honest mistakes.


...just my opinion.


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## PaulD (Jul 19, 2009)

Yep, on all accounts, sir.


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## Gadget (Jul 20, 2009)

germag said:


> I hate to see it. I think these fellas are probably in some trouble, but if I had to make a wager I'd say it was most likely an honest mistake (if it was a goliath). I think that since they already have the public's attention on this, they will try to make an example.
> 
> In reality, by the letter of the law, it doesn't matter if it was a mistake or not. The fish and game laws are the only ones where criminal intent is not a necessity in making a case and prosecuting it. I've always thought that was a problem....people being people we make mistakes. If there was no evidence of intent to break a law, I don't think it should be prosecuted....there are plenty of clear-cut cases (such as the Georgia "fishermen" caught in Louisiana last year with over 400 red snapper) without hammering honest people over honest mistakes.
> 
> ...





I agree, they should be fined in some way, but not prosecuted, unless they can prove intent to break the law.

From what I've read it appears to be a mistake.


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## Spurhunter1 (Jul 20, 2009)

DOH!!!!! Sorry got it backwards when I wrote it! Sorry bout that!



MERCing said:


> Really ??
> 
> The bend in the back of the head looks more like the Goliath's. The gill plates also look like a Goliath.
> Comparing the pics, I wouldn't even question it and would say Goliath all the way, lol.
> ...


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## Parker Phoenix (Jul 20, 2009)

I'm not wanting to see the Lacey Act thrown on these gentlemen.  However, if your gonna play the game, you need to know the rules.


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## huntfish (Jul 20, 2009)

germag said:


> there are plenty of clear-cut cases (such as the Georgia "fishermen" caught in Louisiana last year with over 400 red snapper) without hammering honest people over honest mistakes.
> 
> 
> ...just my opinion.



And it was costly..

NOAA SETS ASSESSMENT ON 909 RED SNAPPER CASE
Release Date: 07/03/2008

The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) of the United States Department of Commerce, General Council for Enforcement and Litigation, Southeast Region, handed down a Notice of Violation Assessment (NOVA) on a red snapper case made on April 28, 2008.

The NOVA stemmed from the case made on the vessel Captain Charlie which was captained by David T. Harrelson, 52, of Lockport, Louisiana. The boat was chartered by one Florida and 17 Georgia fishermen. 

The vessel Captain Charlie was found to have a total of 909 red snapper which were taken during closed season on board the vessel when boarded by Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries Enforcement Agents working under a Joint Enforcement Agreement between NOAA and the State of Louisiana. The recreational red snapper season was not set to open until June 1, 2008, and the recreational limit during open season is two red snapper per person per day. In addition, 287 of the red snapper were under the minimum 16 inch size limit.  None of the 18 non-resident fishermen possessed a Louisiana basic or saltwater license.

The NOVA issued was in the amount of $80,000, and a 210-day Notice of Permit Sanction (NOPS) for the violation of the Magnuson-Stevens Fishery Conservation and Management Act regulations was issued to the owner and operator David T. Harrelson of Rebel Charter Services, LLC.

Also, a joint and several NOVAs in the amount of $45,450 was given to all of the fishermen aboard the vessel Captain Charlie.  In addition, the owner, operator and all fishermen were issued a Notice of Proposed Forfeiture for the red snapper. 

The following is a list of the Captain, deckhand, and fishermen:

David Harrelson, 52, Lockport, La., (Captain)
Donald R. Humphrey, 45, Golden Meadow, La., (Deckhand)
Artesza Portee, 35, Autell, Ga.
Glover Jefferson Jr., 69, Atlanta, Ga.
Walter Bailey Jr., 61, Atlanta, Ga.
Robert Kemp, 72, Atlanta, Ga.
James E. Williams, 65, Callaway, Fla.
Clyde E. Raiford, 68, Fayetteville, Ga.
Baxter R. Maddox, 67, Atlanta, Ga.
Leslie H. Durham, 45, Douglasville, Ga.
Cleveland B. Kemp Jr., 56, Conyers, Ga.
Harry Crosland, 67, Decatur, Ga.
Willie T. Epps, 72, College Park, Ga.
Lawrence Kendrick, 60, Atlanta, Ga.
Walter L. Gibson Jr., 38, Union City, Ga.
Warren R. Brownlee, 36, Palmetto, Ga.
Andrew R. Smith, 70, Decatur, Ga.
Kym D. Haywood, 44, Hapeville, Ga.
Charlie W. Patrick 68, Stone Mountain, Ga.
Earnest Sessoms, 79, Atlanta, Ga.

"We would like to commend our agents for doing an outstanding job in protecting our state and federal fisheries resources," said Colonel Winton Vidrine, Chief Law Enforcement Office for the Department of Wildlife and Fisheries.


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## huntfish (Jul 20, 2009)

Capt. Richie Lott said:


> Man, I hope they don't get the Lacey act nailed on em'.... No one deserves a felony over a fish ID mistake. Hopefully, they'll get a pass this round....


That's the one they should be worried about.   It's not up to FWC to file it.   It's a federal case.


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## Gadget (Jul 20, 2009)

huntfish said:


> And it was costly..
> 
> NOAA SETS ASSESSMENT ON 909 RED SNAPPER CASE
> Release Date: 07/03/2008
> ...





wow, they got it handed to em alright........ wonder if any are forum members....


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## germag (Jul 20, 2009)

Gadget said:


> wow, they got it handed to em alright........ wonder if any are forum members....



They deserved it, IMHO. They knew what they were doing and they knew it was illegal and they did it anyway. There was clear intent to commit a crime.

I'm not so sure there was criminal intent with the guy that caught the grouper.


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## huntfish (Jul 21, 2009)

germag said:


> They deserved it, IMHO. They knew what they were doing and they knew it was illegal and they did it anyway. There was clear intent to commit a crime.
> 
> I'm not so sure there was criminal intent with the guy that caught the grouper.


I agree but the most dreaded 11 words anyone wants to hear are::::

We are the government and we are here to help you...


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## Medicine Man (Jul 22, 2009)

Gadget said:


> wow, they got it handed to em alright........ wonder if any are forum members....



Good question


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## Dan Rogers (Jul 24, 2009)

*ssssshhhhhhh!*



swamp hunter said:


> I catch lot,s of them Jewfish. Sure wish I could keep one . Shame to cut a 75/100 LB. Grouper loose.Kinda like passing on bucks under 150 BC. , And all you got was 4 Trout  in the box. Had one gut hooked and dead a few years back . Cost me $350 . We,re over ran with them fish.



We aren't supposed to call them Jewfish anymore   Friends who dive down here (Naples) say that there are so many Jewfish on the wrecks that all of the other stuff (grouper, snook, snapper etc.) positions themselves off of the structure.  Fisheries people have been quoted as being against a legal harvest here because there aren't enough near Tampa.


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