# English springer spaniel



## Bruizer2003 (Jul 24, 2013)

Hey everyone!!! I'm looking for a little advice on training a springer as I will be getting a female pup in a couple weeks. She will be an inside dog (I had to convince my wife to let me get one by saying it would be a great dog for my daughter). However, I have all intentions of training her for the dove field and possibly some duck hunting. Just wanted to get some tips from those of u who own english springers and also they're pros and cons... Thanks!!


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## Jetjockey (Jul 24, 2013)

Is she a field bred or show bred Springer?  Field bred dog should be pretty easy to train just like any hunting dog with good instincts.  Most can hunt right out of the box with a little bird work.  Polishing them and getting the finer points correct takes a lot more work.    Get Evan Grahms "smart fetch" series of videos.  That will help out a lot...    Btw. Springers are absolute monsters in the pheasant fields, and from what I hear, make decent duck dogs if its not too cold.


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## kingofcool (Jul 25, 2013)

Jetjockey said:


> Btw. Springers are absolute monsters in the pheasant fields



Could you expand on that?


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## Bruizer2003 (Jul 25, 2013)

The one we are getting has a little bit of both bench and field bred in her... I wanted one that would be a little calmer in the house and with my two yr old so many ppl suggested the bench bred.. Luckily I was able to find one with both genetics.. Hopefully she will be able to pick up training fairly quickly. I looked at the field bred ones but most of them were at least $1000 and my wife would kill me if I spent that on a dog


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## Jetjockey (Jul 25, 2013)

kingofcool said:


> Could you expand on that?



Ya, Springers are awesome pheasant dogs.  I'd argue that for hunting pheasants only, they might be the best all around pheasant dogs.  



Bruizer2003 said:


> The one we are getting has a little bit of both bench and field bred in her... I wanted one that would be a little calmer in the house and with my two yr old so many ppl suggested the bench bred.. Luckily I was able to find one with both genetics.. Hopefully she will be able to pick up training fairly quickly. I looked at the field bred ones but most of them were at least $1000 and my wife would kill me if I spent that on a dog



You should be OK.  But with the mix, there is the possibility that the pup might end up just a house dog with no desire to hunt.  As far as house dogs go, I wouldn't worry about any springer not being a great family pet.  IMO it's a myth that pure field bred dogs are high strong dogs not suitable as house pets.  Especially with Brittanys and Springers.  My field bred, horsback trial brittany, is amazing with our 1 month old and all the little kids on our street.  She's a great house dog until you put on blaze orange, or jump on a horse.  Then watch out.    If your dog does have the desire to hunt and retrieve, you will have many great days in the field with it.  The more I hunt over Springers, the more I like them...  They are great dogs.


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## T Tolbert (Jul 25, 2013)

From somebody that owned the very type of springer early you are getting. Field/ bench 

Get her on birds early and often lots and lots and lots of live pigeons. 

My dog liked getting birds but didn't "love" it. 
Take your time as a breed they tend to mature a little slower. 

What are you wanting out of her?


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## JuliaH (Jul 25, 2013)

Jetjockey said:


> You should be OK.  But with the mix, there is the possibility that the pup might end up just a house dog with no desire to hunt.  As far as house dogs go, I wouldn't worry about any springer not being a great family pet.... If your dog does have the desire to hunt and retrieve, you will have many great days in the field with it.  The more I hunt over Springers, the more I like them...  They are great dogs.



That little cocker video on another thread says a lot about dogs where the hunt was supposed to be bred out of them   I know you cannot give a dog desire to hunt if it doesn't have it, but spaniels are pretty much retriever types, aren't they?  To me, that says that a Springer outta be able to do a pretty good job with a little training   I have had a couple of springers and their personalities were super!

Julia


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## Jetjockey (Jul 25, 2013)

Julia.  Yes and No.  The show people have done a great job breeding all the hunt out of many Springers.  Plus the bench bred dogs are HUGE!  I know a few people who have bench bred Springers and those dogs could care less about birds or retrieving.  

We hunt over some really nice field bred Springers every year in PA for pheasants.  Those guys are very, very picky about their breedings.  They don't speak highly of the bench bred dogs.   In the Brit world, there are many show Brits that have zero drive for birds as well, and we have more dual champions then any other breed.  I've seen first hand what some of those "show" bred dogs can do in the field, and it isn't pretty.


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## JuliaH (Jul 25, 2013)

Yes, the show folks breed for what wins.... they talk about "form follows function" but they turn down big running, high performance dogs for what might bring in the ribbons... a lot of breeds of dogs and horses have met the same fate... but nature won't always be trumped, hence that beautiful little black cocker retrieving a duck or goose (? which) as big as he was in the video. 

Some of the trouble is our own prejudice as well as that of the show folks   Show bred can't perform is not always true, so your yes and no is correct.... but it is somewhat the dog and somewhat the person that limits them. 

I don't know about pointing breeds.... the point is so much "in the genes" that it will be hard to breed it out, but my fear is taking the beauty to the extremes so that form is there for the sake of form, not to concern itself with functionality of the animal. 

Thank goodness for the people that are keeping those hunting breed dogs hunting!  

Julia






Jetjockey said:


> Julia.  Yes and No.  The show people have done a great job breeding all the hunt out of many Springers.  Plus the bench bred dogs are HUGE!  I know a few people who have bench bred Springers and those dogs could care less about birds or retrieving.
> 
> We hunt over some really nice field bred Springers every year in PA for pheasants.  Those guys are very, very picky about their breedings.  They don't speak highly of the bench bred dogs.   In the Brit world, there are many show Brits that have zero drive for birds as well, and we have more dual champions then any other breed.  I've seen first hand what some of those "show" bred dogs can do in the field, and it isn't pretty.


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## huntchesies (Jul 25, 2013)

Springers are great with kids.  Not much on the ducks though.  I've had three in the last few years and have tried to duck hunt them but they don't love the water as much as a lab.  I enjoy my labs a lot more.  My labs are great with my kids.


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## Timberdoodle (Aug 2, 2013)

Call Tim Pullian, Rustic Springers, located in Bowman, GA.  

Tim had multiple passes on bench bred dogs this past weekend in Wisconsin at an AKC Spniel Hunt Test.  He'll help you become your OWN trainer.  Springers are a wonderful breed, but each breed (regardless which) deserves its own training approach.

They raise and train ESS.  Yes, they show show-bred dogs in conformation shows, but bench-bred Springers DO HUNT - don't believe trash coming from field-bred spaniel owners' mouth.

You just CANNOT train a bench dog (of any breed) like a field-bred, and expect the same results in the field - you MUST know what you are doing.  Tim does.

Just my 2 cents.


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## zzweims (Aug 2, 2013)

Timberdoodle said:


> bench-bred Springers DO HUNT - don't believe trash coming from field-bred spaniel owners' mouth.
> 
> You just CANNOT train a bench dog (of any breed) like a field-bred, and expect the same results in the field - you MUST know what you are doing.



A good many of us here DO know what we are doing.  In fact, some of us have been at it for decades.  I will agree with you in that many bench bred dogs do hunt, but there is a HUGE difference between those that do it, and those that do it WELL.

I've known a few bench bred dogs that hunted very well--but they are the exception.  I've also known field bred dogs that I wouldn't want to feed, let alone take hunting.  But they are the exception as well.  If hunting or trialing is your goal, then go with a breeder who puts hunting ability first, rather than one who puts two pretty dogs together whether they hunt or not.

FYI, if anyone tells you that field and bench bred dogs need to be trained differently from one another, then he's feeding you a line of crap.  ALL dogs are individuals and training needs to be modified for each dog. But a good trainer should be able to follow a program of training with very little tweaking for every dog, regardless of how it's bred.  How the dog turns out at the end of it has just as much to do with breeding (if not more so) than how it was trained.

Aline

p.s. I drank that Kool Aid too when I first got into weims.  They were so much crappier in the field than the other breeds I'd owned, but the weim community insisted that they "just had to be trained differently."  Then I got a field bred weim and started kicking pointer butt with very little training at all.


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## Timberdoodle (Aug 2, 2013)

Aline, 

I hope neither you particularly, nor anyone here in general, took offense - hard to tell online sometimes.  My statements certainly were not meant as a slight to owners, breeders, or trainers (professional or amateur) of field-bred dogs.  I say, hunt, train, live what you like, the way you like, and agree with you in the main - life is too short.

My experiences are limited to the spaniel world, so I do not mean to generalize beyond that.  I have enjoyed watching many FB Springers and Cockers doing what they were bred to do, and doing it in a very pleasing manner.

That said, I have endured my fair share of trash talk personally and behind my back (and not merely light-hearted ribbing) from those who consider themselves highly evolved trainers and/or field trialers in the AKC spaniel world, who consider anything not a field-bred, to not be worthy of hunting, testing, or trialing.  In fact, most of those folks (while a minority) were FB ESS owners.  That is my well founded experience & observation of many, many years, from other competitors and judges, about my and other dogs. 

I firmly believe, that while there may not be a wholesale different method of training a FB spaniel vs a BB spaniel, their temperaments _are_in general _different_.  To ignore this difference causes potential problems down the road.  As you say, "ALL dogs are individuals and training needs to be modified for each dog" - true.

Some dogs will not become hunters, despite what one tries, for a myriad of reasons.  Truly, proper breeding is the cornerstone of training, as you say.

In the end, it all comes down to what performance pleases the owner, and what they want to accomplish with the dog.  For me, I desire a bench bred Cocker that hunts and handles as a proper spaniel should, in control, naturally, and well-mannered.  Further, I seek to breed such a Cocker that also conforms to our breed standard in the AKC.  We here have been able to do just that - conformation champions that hunt very well - and while in the minority, try to serve as an example to others in our breed.

You obviously are well experienced, and found the type of dog that satisfied what your objective were.  You knew what you wanted and know how to get it.  That's what it takes.

Cheers!


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## zzweims (Aug 3, 2013)

Timberdoodle,

Not offended at all.  While there are some very experienced folks on this board, there are many who are looking to purchase/train their first hunting dogs.  My post was directed more toward that latter group.

Yes, there are general differences between field and bench bred dogs of any breed. And yes, some bench bred dogs will hunt.  And yes, with considerable effort, you can force a square peg in a round hole.  But why bother when they are plenty of good round pegs available?

I admire folks who are looking for the next dual champion, but the majority on this board are just looking for a hunting buddy.  To them I say, hedge your bets and get a field bred dog.

Aline


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