# Lesbian Support.



## whchunter (Feb 5, 2008)

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=172409

See post #3 and weigh in giving biblical reference to your position. I've always wondered about this and am trying to find some biblical reference. If there is a previous post just reference and I'll take a look.

I would think you'd want to always love them but seems you would not want to support them or associate with them to the point it would influence others or indicate acceptance of the act.  It's like sinners in the church, after trying everything to get the person to change you might have to separate the sinner form the church least the church be brought down and/or other potential members be swayed. "get you away from me ....."


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## alphachief (Feb 5, 2008)

whchunter said:


> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=172409
> 
> See post #3 and weigh in giving biblical reference to your position. I've always wondered about this and am trying to find some biblical reference. If there is a previous post just reference and I'll take a look.
> 
> I would think you'd want to always love them but seems you would not want to support them or associate with them to the point it would influence others or indicate acceptance of the act.  It's like sinners in the church, after trying everything to get the person to change you might have to separate the sinner form the church least the church be brought down and/or other potential members be swayed. "get you away from me ....."




I just don't think God or Jesus would want me to abandon my child if this were the case.  I would continue to pray for them and offer spiritual couseling to them as best I could...but I would never turn my back on them.  You can love them and witness to them without shunning them.


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## toddboucher (Feb 5, 2008)

Agree- This is a tough issue, I think I would say- I know what you are doing and its wrong but I still love you, were praying for you. I also would reach out more no less with my son( I only have a son) and wouldn't allow his partner over the house. I think that last part would be my only rule, and thats to protect others.


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## Pale Blue Dun (Feb 5, 2008)

I have said this before and I will say it again.

I hope I am never presented this by my own children. But if I do I will continue to love them but I will not condone that type of behavior. 

Hate the sin. Love the sinner.


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## whchunter (Feb 6, 2008)

*REferences?*

Biblical References Anyone?


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## jmharris23 (Feb 6, 2008)

The best scriptural reference I can give you would be John 4 and John 8. In both of these instances Jesus spoke with women who were living in sin and rather than condemn them He spoke to them in love. Realize that He did tell them to leave their sinful lives, but He did so IN LOVE. 

Jesus never treated wrong people wrongly and neither should we!!


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## Spotlite (Feb 6, 2008)

Branchminnow said:


> Biblical references for what part of the issue specifically?
> 
> 
> Parents shunning them?
> ...



Same here. Nothing will ever stop me from loving my child, even if they hate me, I will always love them.

As far as the gay crap goes, I get sick of folks chiming in with the "do the Christian thing as Jesus would"

I got a couple of questions for those folks;

1.  Why should I accept their choice, support their ways and look over what God called an abomination?

2.  What is the difference in homosexuality and murder? Both are wrong. A man kills someone just like the recent with the hiker deal and we want justice, but if he is gay, then lets just patty cake with him and accept him as Christ would. I got news for you, Jesus would not have patty caked with him, he would have told him fast take up your cross and follow me.  

Thats what is wrong with the Christian world today, they want to sugar coat everything with the "if it feels good do it" attitude.


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## hogdawg (Feb 6, 2008)

Spotlite said:


> 2.  What is the difference in homosexuality and murder? Both are wrong. A man kills someone just like the recent with the hiker deal and we want justice, but if he is gay, then lets just patty cake with him and accept him as Christ would. I got news for you, Jesus would not have patty caked with him, he would have told him fast take up your cross and follow me.
> 
> Thats what is wrong with the Christian world today, they want to sugar coat everything with the "if it feels good do it" attitude.



Anyone who compares being gay with murder has some serious issues.  Cursing is wrong, but do you compare it to murder?  You have no understanding of homosexuality.


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## Spotlite (Feb 6, 2008)

hogdawg said:


> Anyone who compares being gay with murder has some serious issues.  Cursing is wrong, but do you compare it to murder?  You have no understanding of homosexuality.



The serious issues begin when you overlook wrong and try to make it right.

As far as me not understanding homosexuality, I count that as a blessing.


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## jmharris23 (Feb 6, 2008)

Spotlite said:


> As far as the gay crap goes, I get sick of folks chiming in with the "do the Christian thing as Jesus would"
> 
> Thats what is wrong with the Christian world today, they want to sugar coat everything with the "if it feels good do it" attitude.



WHAT?


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## hogdawg (Feb 6, 2008)

Nobody's tryin' to make it right, just tryin' to figure out how to handle it when it invloves a loved one.  I guess being simple minded could be seen as a blessing on some issues.  It's alot easier for you.


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## Spotlite (Feb 6, 2008)

jmharris23 said:


> WHAT?





Spotlite said:


> Thats what is wrong with the Christian world today, they want to sugar coat everything with the "if it feels good do it" attitude.



Instead of telling these folks they need to change their life, alot are telling them they are OK with what they are doing. Thats called sugar coating.


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## Spotlite (Feb 6, 2008)

hogdawg said:


> Nobody's tryin' to make it right, just tryin' to figure out how to handle it when it invloves a loved one.  I guess being simple minded could be seen as a blessing on some issues.  It's alot easier for you.




I will not get drug into your cheap shots dude.

Your loved one is still your loved one regardless of what they turn out to be, even if they are a murderer. 

You dont hate them ever, but you have an obligation to them to show them the right way.


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## Spotlite (Feb 6, 2008)

Branchminnow said:


> Read for yourselves what they are worthy of, the scripture is talking of a spiritual death, not natural, so dont misunderstand me.
> 
> For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
> ROM  1: 27  And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
> ...


I thought it was, even us simple minded folks can understand that.


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## jmharris23 (Feb 6, 2008)

Spotlite said:


> Instead of telling these folks they need to change their life, alot are telling them they are OK with what they are doing. Thats called sugar coating.



That's true, which is why Jesus said go and sin no more. I was actually more concerned about your other statement that I quoted.


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## jody7818 (Feb 6, 2008)

jmharris23 said:


> I was actually more concerned about your other statement that I quoted.



That's what I was thinking as well.  I don't see how anyone can go wrong with the concept "do the Christian thing as Jesus would".  Maybe spotlite meant something else?


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## Spotlite (Feb 6, 2008)

jmharris23 said:


> That's true, which is why Jesus said go and sin no more. I was actually more concerned about your other statement that I quoted.





Spotlite said:


> As far as the gay crap goes, I get sick of folks chiming in with the "do the Christian thing as Jesus would"



Jim people sometimes use that as a crutch to justify their doings. They look beyond the purpose Jesus had when he dealt with the prostitute or others.
Jesus had a purpose to change someones life, not to fellowship in their sin.


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## Spotlite (Feb 6, 2008)

Spotlite said:


> Same here. Nothing will ever stop me from loving my child, even if they hate me, I will always love them.
> 
> As far as the gay crap goes, I get sick of folks chiming in with the "do the Christian thing as Jesus would"
> 
> ...





jmharris23 said:


> That's true, which is why Jesus said go and sin no more. I was actually more concerned about your other statement that I quoted.





jody7818 said:


> That's what I was thinking as well.  I don't see how anyone can go wrong with the concept "do the Christian thing as Jesus would".  Maybe spotlite meant something else?


Read the underlined red.


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## jmharris23 (Feb 6, 2008)

Ok well I get what you mean I guess. But if they are truly doing as Jesus did, then they will be doing it just right!


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## Spotlite (Feb 6, 2008)

jmharris23 said:


> Ok well I get what you mean I guess. But if they are truly doing as Jesus did, then they will be doing it just right!



Yes


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## hogdawg (Feb 6, 2008)

I'm not trying to throw cheap shots.  Being gay and murder are both wrong in Gods eyes, very simple if you look at it as wrong or right, but it goes much deeper than that.  It's a very simple way of looking at it  is all I was saying.  So, do you you believe you should cut all ties, and just pray for em', or preach to em' everytime you have contact with em'?  I'm not tryin' to be sarcastic.


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## PWalls (Feb 6, 2008)

You would set ground rules. Those would involve how and when you interract with your child. And, of course, daily prayer would be the norm.

Inviting your child and their "lover" over for Thanksgiving to me would be a no-no. To me that is tacit acceptance. Inviting your child over by themselves with both parties knowing certain ground rules would be acceptable.

I would favor not a complete "shun" but something almost like it.


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## Spotlite (Feb 6, 2008)

hogdawg said:


> I'm not trying to throw cheap shots.  Being gay and murder are both wrong in Gods eyes, very simple if you look at it as wrong or right, but it goes much deeper than that.  It's a very simple way of looking at it  is all I was saying.  So, do you you believe you should cut all ties, and just pray for em', or preach to em' everytime you have contact with em'?  I'm not tryin' to be sarcastic.



Its really no different in most case with anyone else you deal with. You do things with people you have common ground with. I have a gay cousin, we do not hunt, fish or anything together, simply we have nothing in common. If he hunted or fished, I would not have a problem taking him. At the family reunion, I shake his hand and treat him like family. I have invited him to Church, I have offered to go to his house and help him with scriptures. That I can and dont mind doing, buddying up for a night out, dont see it happening, no common ground.

You know the interest in a person your dealing with, you play with a wood stove long enough and you will get smut on you. I have sat at the same table with a lesbian couple, but they had an interest in getting their lives straightened out. They did, they no longer live together, they sold their house and split the money 50/50, they are still friends and they actually date men now.

As far as your own child, as I said before, nothing will ever make me stop loving my child.


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## hogdawg (Feb 6, 2008)

Bottom line, I struggle with this issue.  I just can't imagine living my life having feelings for women, but not being able to act on them because it is wrong.  Sorry,  not trying to hijack the thread.


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## THREEJAYS (Feb 6, 2008)

Pale Blue Dun said:


> I have said this before and I will say it again.
> 
> I hope I am never presented this by my own children. But if I do I will continue to love them but I will not condone that type of behavior.
> 
> Hate the sin. Love the sinner.



Ditto


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## hevishot (Feb 6, 2008)

I would support my children no matter what.....PERIOD. That post was crap and i believe anyone who would "shun" their children for something such as this arent worth the air they are breathing as parents AND as "Christians"......complete horse ************...


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## Pale Blue Dun (Feb 6, 2008)

hevishot said:


> I would support my children no matter what.....PERIOD. That post was crap and i believe anyone who would "shun" their children for something such as this arent worth the air they are breathing as parents AND as "Christians"......complete horse ************...



I feel the same as you. GOD I love my kids. I CRAVE to be with them like I crave the air I breathe. I cannot understand how someone could just flip a switch and turn it off.

I think if someone COULD do that they are selfish and more concerned about how the outside world views THEM.

I'd like to think I have more love in my heart for my kids than that. I'd hate to hear what my Savior had to say to me when he asked my why I abandoned my kid for a sin that wasn't any different than the one I've committed that MY heavenly father didn't abandon me for.

Dan


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## hevishot (Feb 6, 2008)

well said PBD...my wife and I cant even HAVE kids and want them so desperately!!! It makes me sick to my stomach to think that someone could look into the eyes of their own flesh and blood and turn them away....I am by no means approving of the homosexual lifestyle but If we are ever fortunate to be blessed with being able to adopt...my kids will have it instilled in them that we are their parents and that is one thing in their lives that they can always count on!


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## PWalls (Feb 6, 2008)

Get a grip. Melodrama gets old. No one on here said they would not love their children anymore. No one said they would not be their parents anymore.

You can still do both of those and not condone their lifestyle choices. If my child was a druggy, then I would not want them in my home with their drug addict friends or their substances. I would not allow that tacit approval. Same with homosexuality. It's called "tough love" and is a viable alternative after other routes have failed. No one said that when junior announced one day that he was gay that he would be immediately kicked out and never talked to again.


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## hevishot (Feb 6, 2008)

guess you need to read the post in question again and get your own grip....how else would you "interperate" it? Please Pwall, read the first post here that references the post in question and tell me just exactley how you interpret the term "disowned" as tough love. How else can DISOWNED be interpreted??? This should be good....bring it.


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## hevishot (Feb 6, 2008)

PWalls said:


> No one said that when junior announced one day that he was gay that he would be immediately kicked out and never talked to again.



no one ever said that? HUH?? What does DISOWNED mean man? Your so worried about "melodrama" that you cant even pay attention.....


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## Jim Thompson (Feb 6, 2008)

hevi and walls, yall take a deep breath


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## hogdawg (Feb 6, 2008)

Here we go comparing apples to oranges.  Being gay to being a druggy.  Some of yall got a funny way of looking at things.


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## MustangMAtt30 (Feb 6, 2008)

hevishot said:


> no one ever said that? HUH?? What does DISOWNED mean man? Your so worried about "melodrama" that you cant even pay attention.....



Get'em Hevi.


PWAlls, you did say you supported an almost complete shun of your child in this case.......

So what is it, shun them or not?


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## Huntin' Dawg (Feb 6, 2008)

Jim Thompson said:


> hevi and walls, yall take a deep breath




. . . and perhaps you should the remainder of the posted thread, where many of the issues and allegations that you're now raising were specifically addressed.

Y'all have a good one.


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## PWalls (Feb 6, 2008)

hogdawg said:


> Here we go comparing apples to oranges.  Being gay to being a druggy.  Some of yall got a funny way of looking at things.



Both are sins. Both are terrible. Both I would not tolerate nor approve.


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## Jim Thompson (Feb 6, 2008)

Huntin' Dawg said:


> . . . and perhaps you should the remainder of the posted thread, where many of the issues and allegations that you're now raising were specifically addressed.
> 
> Y'all have a good one.



not sure I fully understand your post.  I was addressing Hevi and Pwalls jumping into each other personally, not the subject itself.  Yall can debate each other till your blue in the face, but leave the personal garbage off the forums or find a new place to play


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## PWalls (Feb 6, 2008)

hevishot said:


> no one ever said that? HUH?? What does DISOWNED mean man? Your so worried about "melodrama" that you cant even pay attention.....



You've already admitted that you don't have any kids. So, where is your dog in this fight?

I have three of them. Love them more than my life. Would give them the world if I owned it and the thought of ever having to "disown" or "shun" one of them for their actions is abhorrent to me. However, I have rules and I have convictions. I raise those children with those rules and convictions. Once they leave my care and make personal choices that go against my rules and convictions then they have to live with the consequences. In the case of drugs or homosexuality, which are both very serious, then the consequences get more serious. I would never stop loving them. I would always be their parent. However, their fellowship and relationship with me would be damaged by their action. Sound familiar? Same way with me and God. They choose to discontinue that sin, then our fellowship and relationship would be restored based on the love that I have for them. Sound familiar? Same way with me and God.


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## Lead Poison (Feb 6, 2008)

PWalls...

At least I understand and agree with you. 

However, I don't think Hevi really understands what you're saying.


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## PWalls (Feb 6, 2008)

Now Branch, why would you want to go and put Scripture in a post like this?


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## Branchminnow (Feb 6, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Now Branch, why would you want to go and put Scripture in a post like this?



I was working on my reply before you posted this. Just for others clarification I figgerd youd understand.


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## hevishot (Feb 6, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Both are sins. Both are terrible. Both I would not tolerate nor approve.



I wouldnt approve of it either. Thats not the question. The question is WOULD YOU DISOWN THEM as was stated in the thread in question. Simple question, what is your answer? and Branch, how about you? Would you DISOWN your child if they came to you and said they were Gay. Tell you what, all of yall who claim to be so "Christian" definatley dont know the Jesus I know.....and I am thankful for that. Ya'll do way more harm to the Christian faith than good....flame away but at least answer simply, would you disown your child.....???


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## PWalls (Feb 6, 2008)

hevishot said:


> I wouldnt approve of it either. Thats not the question. The question is WOULD YOU DISOWN THEM as was stated in the thread in question. Simple question, what is your answer? and Branch, how about you? Would you DISOWN your child if they came to you and said they were Gay. Tell you what, all of yall who claim to be so "Christian" definatley dont know the Jesus I know.....and I am thankful for that. Ya'll do way more harm to the Christian faith than good....flame away but at least answer simply, would you disown your child.....???



Let's get your definition of "disown" before I get blasted when I answer.

Oh, one other thing. I don't "claim" to be Christian. I am one.


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## hevishot (Feb 6, 2008)

na...tell you what, if you dont understand what the word DISOWNED means, then their isnt too much I can do for you......Im done. Ya'll enjoy, you have run off another one.....


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## PWalls (Feb 6, 2008)

hevishot said:


> na...tell you what, if you dont understand what the word DISOWNED means, then their isnt too much I can do for you......Im done. Ya'll enjoy, you have run off another one.....



Whatever.


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## hevishot (Feb 6, 2008)

Thanks Branch, I agree with everything you just posted. My issue was the whole "disowning" thing and as you stated, your child would always be welcome in your home and with your family. Pwalls hasnt answered squat.....as I stated earlier, Im against homosexuality period, but if im ever lucky enough to have kids, they will always know they can come home. Its called Unconditional love and something, as a Christian, I believe in....thanks


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## Branchminnow (Feb 6, 2008)

PWalls said:


> . I would never stop loving them. I would always be their parent. However, their fellowship and relationship with me would be damaged by their action. Sound familiar? Same way with me and God. They choose to discontinue that sin, then our fellowship and relationship would be restored based on the love that I have for them. Sound familiar? Same way with me and God.



hevi I think he did.


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## hevishot (Feb 6, 2008)

Branchminnow said:


> The truth does tend to make folks uncomfortable.



funny, you make a post that really makes sense then follow it up with this crap? Great witness bud...


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## Spotlite (Feb 6, 2008)

hevishot said:


> the whole "disowning" thing and as you stated, your child would always be welcome in your home and with your family.
> 
> if im ever lucky enough to have kids, they will always know they can come home. Its called Unconditional love and something, as a Christian, I believe in....thanks



Yes they are always welcome. I dont know why some folks would disown their children, but they do everyday, visit DFACS and you will see.

Now if you are lucky, you have a daughter, she brings home a no good idiot that wont work and looks like death warmed over, Im almost certain your going to take a stand against that and not welcome him back, most on here are saying the same thing about a gay son and making his lover unwelcome. Why is it so hard for folks to understand that you have a responsibility to your childs welfare and that means checking out who they date.


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## Branchminnow (Feb 6, 2008)

Spotlite said:


> Yes they are always welcome. I dont know why some folks would disown their children, but they do everyday, visit DFACS and you will see.
> 
> Now if you are lucky, you have a daughter, she brings home a no good idiot that wont work and looks like death warmed over, Im almost certain your going to take a stand against that and not welcome him back, most on here are saying the same thing about a gay son and making his lover unwelcome. Why is it so hard for folks to understand that you have a responsibility to your childs welfare and that means checking out who they date.


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## Pale Blue Dun (Feb 6, 2008)

Hevi..I have seven kids. You wanna borrow a few? You might not want kids after a few days with my two youngest boys. All boy and highspeed destruction machines. And I LOVE IT!!

I have very good kids. Kids with morals and the love of Jesus Christ in their hearts. My kids get mad if something comes up and we have to miss church. They are great witnesses for our Savior.

I can also tell you this: There is nothing they could do that would make me shun them or disown them or keep them from my home. I work very hard to provide them with a loving home and it is their home until I die or they die, God forbid. If that means whatever they are doing comes with them, then so be it. I'd rather them be sinning in front of my face so that I can lovingly try to change their heart than run them off and then they do whatever away from me where I can't do anything about it.

Hopefully that will never happen. 

Some of us here can be very legalistic and legalism is what has turned more people away from Christ than anything I have ever witnessed.

Dan


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## dawg2 (Feb 6, 2008)

I would not approve of that lifestyle, but I would not disown them.


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## dawg2 (Feb 6, 2008)

Pale Blue Dun said:


> Hevi..I have seven kids.
> Dan



You need to get cable.


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## PWalls (Feb 6, 2008)

Pale Blue Dun said:


> Some of us here can be very legalistic and legalism is what has turned more people away from Christ than anything I have ever witnessed.



Seven kids!!!!Wow. The Lord has blessed you. I have three and the grey hairs to prove it.


On the quote above, Legalism can be a bad thing and I agree, but Liberalism is probably worse in my opinion.


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## dawg2 (Feb 6, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Seven kids!!!!Wow. The Lord has blessed you. I have three and the grey hairs to prove it.
> 
> 
> On the quote above, Legalism can be a bad thing and I agree, but Liberalism is probably worse in my opinion.



No, Socialism is.


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## Pale Blue Dun (Feb 6, 2008)

Dawg...I have cable....but I can never find anyting to watch

Seriously though...if y'all were as good at it as I am, you'd have seven, too!


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## dawg2 (Feb 6, 2008)

Pale Blue Dun said:


> Dawg...I have cable....but I can never find anyting to watch
> 
> Seriously though...if y'all were as good at it as I am, you'd have seven, too!


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## hogdawg (Feb 6, 2008)

What if your child was a devout Christian and followed the Lords word to the T, and was completely involved in the church, but deep down inside he/she  had an attraction to the same sex, just as a heterosexual has to the opposite sex.  Do you think they should suppress it their whole lives and never be completely happy?  I'm not taking a side on this, it's just a question.  Don't attack me.


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## pfharris1965 (Feb 6, 2008)

*...*



hogdawg said:


> What if your child was a devout Christian and followed the Lords word to the T, and was completely involved in the church, but deep down inside he/she had an attraction to the same sex, just as a heterosexual has to the opposite sex. Do you think they should suppress it their whole lives and never be completely happy? I'm not taking a side on this, it's just a question. Don't attack me.


 
Not faced with the situation but would never ever turn my back on my child...I am amazed at the responses that indicate that folks would do things that would ultimately and swiftly alienate one's offspring...I think God would view turning your back on your kid as a sin......

Man...whatever happened to the ole addage...BLOOD IS THICKER THAN WATER...

Call it what ya want but unconditional love (which is what Jesus taught) is about being there for them no matter what and the concept or notion of abandoning one's child sort of goes against all the southern Baptist upbringing I had......but then again...I have found that as I age and learn more and more I realize that that particular upbringing was...uhhhh well...I will leave it at that...

Besides, I thought the only unforgiveable sin was blasphemy......and even if you do that according to what all I have seen posted here (by the preachers and other "Biblical" scholars) you still go to heaven if you are saved...


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## brownhounds (Feb 6, 2008)

*Adam And Eve*

Its ADAM and EVE.  Not ADAM and STEVE.  I have 3 kids.  If you are the man of the house, you make the decisions about everything.  If you dont want your kid to bring over their significant other, kick them out of the house right when they walk through the door.  You have to show them who the head of the household is.  You put a roof over their head, food on the table, and provide their needs/wants.  

Raise UP your child the way YOU want them to be raised and they will NOT part from it.

Matt Brown
Brownhounds@windstream.net


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## pfharris1965 (Feb 6, 2008)

*...*

Sorry but I have never been of the mindset to wear the wife beater, tanktop tee-shirts, drink PBR and beat my loved ones into submission with a big leather belt whilst quoting scripture ...and I have never combed my hair in a greased up pompadore and worn pork chop sideburns...

I have pretty much always been of the mindset that I want a life's partner (a woman before you foolishly infer anything) that is my intellectual equal and one with whom I share equally with...additionally, I have always thought it best that my kid respects me as opposed to fearing me and is never afraid to approach me seeking advice or guidance with the issues he may face whilst growing up...


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## PWalls (Feb 6, 2008)

WPH44 said:


> Sorry but I have never been of the mindset to wear the wife beater, tanktop tee-shirts, drink PBR and beat my loved ones into submission with a big leather belt whilst quoting scripture ...and I have never combed my hair in a greased up pompadore and worn pork chop sideburns...



Now that is quite a picture you are painting there.


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## pfharris1965 (Feb 6, 2008)

*...*



PWalls said:


> Now that is quite a picture you are painting there.


 
 

You know me man...


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## dawg2 (Feb 6, 2008)

Serious question:  If you are "saved" and truly are, and you are gay (but lead a Christian life) do you still go to Heaven?


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## pfharris1965 (Feb 6, 2008)

*...*



dawg2 said:


> Serious question: If you are "saved" and truly are, and you are gay (but lead a Christian life) do you still go to Heaven?


 
Yes...there is not one bit of scripture to rebutt it either...sins are forgiven and all the Scripture says is that if you have accepted Jesus as your Saviour then you will go to Heaven...and one has but to ask forgiveness for sins because of the sacrifice made by Jesus.

Is not working on sin (ANY SIN) and the avoidance thereof a constant battle until the day we die according to everything we have seen posted by the many "learned" here?  There has only ever been one perfect and sin free being and that was Jesus himself...


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## PWalls (Feb 6, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> you are gay (but lead a Christian life)



How do you do this? Do you mean that the person has repented of their homosexual lifestyle and no longer lives in it? Not meaning that they have to start dating the opposite sex, but that they continue to live the rest of their life without returning to that previous lifestyle?

If so, then that is repentence. Homosexuality is a sin that can be forgiven.


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## PWalls (Feb 6, 2008)

hogdawg said:


> Do you think they should suppress it their whole lives and never be completely happy?



Yes. As for the happiness comment, joy comes from the Lord. A person that does God's will and lives within His scripture can and will have happiness and joy from the Lord.


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## Spotlite (Feb 6, 2008)

hogdawg said:


> What if your child was a devout Christian and followed the Lords word to the T, and was completely involved in the church, but deep down inside he/she  had an attraction to the same sex, just as a heterosexual has to the opposite sex.  Do you think they should suppress it their whole lives and never be completely happy?  I'm not taking a side on this, it's just a question.  Don't attack me.



I would say it would be impossible for a "devout" Christian following the Lords Word to have homosexual feelings due to the fact that if he was "devout" and followed the Word to a T, he would know what the Word has to say about homosexual acts. Its like pouring oil and water in the same bucket, it dont mix.


----------



## dawg2 (Feb 6, 2008)

PWalls said:


> How do you do this? Do you mean that the person has repented of their homosexual lifestyle and no longer lives in it? Not meaning that they have to start dating the opposite sex, but that they continue to live the rest of their life without returning to that previous lifestyle?
> 
> If so, then that is repentence. Homosexuality is a sin that can be forgiven.



No, they still live in it.  I have been following the Episcopal dilemna and was curious how it would apply in other denominations.


----------



## PWalls (Feb 6, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> No, they still live in it.  I have been following the Episcopal dilemna and was curious how it would apply in other denominations.



Two things and then I'm off to sleep (with my wife ).

One: I would have a deep concern about the Salvation of the person who continues to live in a homosexual relationship with no repentence so part of me would look at that fruit and doubt their entrance into Heaven.

Two: I also realize that homosexuality is a sin that Jesus paid the price for. If that person was truly saved and they made a choice to committ that sin (for whatever reason)and died prior to repentence, then they would still go to Heaven.

Of course you know we are starting to open that whole OSAS debate again.

Night all.


----------



## Spotlite (Feb 6, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Serious question:  If you are "saved" and truly are, and you are gay (but lead a Christian life) do you still go to Heaven?



You cant practice both.


----------



## dawg2 (Feb 6, 2008)

Spotlite said:


> You cant practice both.



Not trying to start anything here, but if a 13 YO is "saved" at their church, and later in life (say in their 20's)becomes "gay" how does that work?


----------



## dawg2 (Feb 6, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Of course you know we are starting to open that whole OSAS debate again.
> 
> Night all.



I think you answered my OSAS question.


----------



## pfharris1965 (Feb 6, 2008)

*...*



Spotlite said:


> You cant practice both.


 
Sure you can if you are saved...at least according to everything that has been posted in this forum and everything I was taught about salvation by Brother Bobby Moore at Welcome All Baptist Church in Smyrna GA back in the 70's...he was one of the most sincere and God fearing men I have ever had the pleasure of meeting and listening to whilst he preached...oh and did I mention he never left out the part about compassion that Jesus taught?

Forgiveness from God is not selective nor bound by time constraints...


----------



## Twenty five ought six (Feb 6, 2008)

I don't see a lot of difference between a "practicing" homosexual and a drunkard that dies of ethanol poisoning, or a "practicing" heterosexual that dies in the arms of his mistress  (or even with his second or third wife), or a "practicing" thief.

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.  Whoever believes on Jesus shall not perish, but shall have eternal life, or at least that's the way my Bible reads. 

Jesus promised the thief on the cross that he would join Jesus in heaven that day, and that promise still stands.  

I just don't see anything in The Bible where God "grades" sin, from most hated to sort of o.k.


----------



## dawg2 (Feb 6, 2008)

Twenty five ought six said:


> I don't see a lot of difference between a "practicing" homosexual and a drunkard that dies of ethanol poisoning, or a "practicing" heterosexual that dies in the arms of his mistress  (or even with his second or third wife), or a "practicing" thief.
> 
> All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.  Whoever believes on Jesus shall not perish, but shall have eternal life, or at least that's the way my Bible reads.
> 
> ...



That is what I was curious about.  Thanks for the answer.


----------



## pfharris1965 (Feb 6, 2008)

*...*



Twenty five ought six said:


> I don't see a lot of difference between a "practicing" homosexual and a drunkard that dies of ethanol poisoning, or a "practicing" heterosexual that dies in the arms of his mistress (or even with his second or third wife), or a "practicing" thief.
> 
> All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Whoever believes on Jesus shall not perish, but shall have eternal life, or at least that's the way my Bible reads.
> 
> ...


----------



## Spotlite (Feb 6, 2008)

Twenty five ought six said:


> I just don't see anything in The Bible where God "grades" sin, from most hated to sort of o.k.


Here ya go


Branchminnow said:


> Read for yourselves what they are worthy of, the scripture is talking of a spiritual death, not natural, so dont misunderstand me.
> 
> For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
> ROM  1: 27  And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
> ...





Course they can turn from that filth, but I dont see how anyone can justify continuing in it.


----------



## Spotlite (Feb 6, 2008)

WPH44 said:


> Forgiveness from God is not selective nor bound by time constraints...


No forgiveness is not restrained, but what about continuing in your ways?


----------



## Twenty five ought six (Feb 7, 2008)

> No forgiveness is not restrained, but what about continuing in your ways?



Look at Branchminnow's list from Romans:



> disobedient to parents,



You know any kids that "continue in their ways" of being disobedient to their parents?  Do you think that when they are killed in a car wreck that these children go to ************.

Each of us sins each and every day.  I don't see anything in The Bible that says we get a gold star for sinning in a new and different way instead of just doing the same old sin over and over.

It is absolutely presumptuous for any of one to presume to know who God loves, or who God will forgive.  It is a narrow minded God that would judge a person's life by one small aspect of it.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Feb 7, 2008)

Spotlite said:


> Yes they are always welcome. I dont know why some folks would disown their children, but they do everyday, visit DFACS and you will see.


 

Most children that DFACS have are because the parent(s) were either too lazy to take care of their kids or they have done something to their kids that should never be done to a child....

DB BB


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## dawg2 (Feb 7, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Most children that DFACS have are because the parent(s) were either too lazy to take care of their kids or they have done something to their kids that should never be done to a child....
> 
> DB BB



I agree with that.


----------



## dawg2 (Feb 7, 2008)

Spotlite said:


> Here ya go
> 
> 
> 
> ...



SO you agree there are "grades of sin?"


----------



## Spotlite (Feb 7, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> SO you agree there are "grades of sin?"



"All" sin has the same price and the end results for "all" sin not covered by the blood is the same. 

But Proverbs 6 is pretty clear that there are some things God just cant stand, even though he can and will forgive you of them.


----------



## hogdawg (Feb 7, 2008)

Spotlite said:


> I would say it would be impossible for a "devout" Christian following the Lords Word to have homosexual feelings due to the fact that if he was "devout" and followed the Word to a T, he would know what the Word has to say about homosexual acts. Its like pouring oil and water in the same bucket, it dont mix.



I honestly think that homosexuals don't choose to feel the way they do.  Why on earth would they?  Especially those that follow the Lord's word.  I don't think you can help what sex you are attracted to, but yes, you can help whether or not you act on those feelings.  Feelings and actions are totally different.  I struggle with the thought of God putting someone on this earth with a longing for a mate (just as everyone has) that he/she can never fullfill.  Maybe it's his way of controling our population


----------



## Spotlite (Feb 7, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Most children that DFACS have are because the parent(s) were either too lazy to take care of their kids or they have done something to their kids that should never be done to a child....
> 
> DB BB



True, alot of parents have CHOSEN an un-appropriate  lifestyle that they knew before hand would result in loosing their children, yet they chose it anyway, same thing as giving one thing up to have another.


----------



## Spotlite (Feb 7, 2008)

hogdawg said:


> I honestly think that homosexuals don't choose to feel the way they do.  Why on earth would they?  Especially those that follow the Lord's word.  I don't think you can help what sex you are attracted to, but yes, you can help whether or not you act on those feelings.  Feelings and actions are totally different.  I struggle with the thought of God putting someone on this earth with a longing for a mate (just as everyone has) that he/she can never fullfill.  Maybe it's his way of controling our population



They honestly may be controlled by the devil and cant control their feelings.

But if you follow the Lords Word, you cant mix the 2. Its impossible because you cant serve 2 masters, its either one or the other. It all starts at home, "train up a child in the way he should go"

If you let a kid believe its ok to have Homosexual feelings, guess what you got when he is grown?

If you let a kid think its OK to steal this candy bar now, guess what you got when he is grown?

Now its not all the parents fault, some have done everything they know to do and in the right way, that kid has to absorb that in for it to work. Some kids are just rebellious.

Im sure there are tons of alcoholics that blame their parents or some body for the their addiction, but Im pretty sure they didnt become an alcoholic until they were grown and I am willing to bet most were not allowed to drink when they were kids.


----------



## Twenty five ought six (Feb 7, 2008)

> I dont know why some folks would disown their children, but they do everyday, visit DFACS and you will see.



I've been involved with foster children for nearly 45 years.  One of the biggest problems they have is getting unfit parents to "disown" their children.

The newspaper is frequently filled with stories of children taken out of foster care that are returned to their unfit parents multiple times, only for the children to come to a tragic end.


----------



## Spotlite (Feb 7, 2008)

Twenty five ought six said:


> I've been involved with foster children for nearly 45 years.  One of the biggest problems they have is getting unfit parents to "disown" their children.



Most parents come to realization when it hits them that way. It still does not cover up what they did and does not change the fact they chose to live a life they knew would cost them that if they got caught. Some parents fight thinking they have a suit against the State for taking their kids away. Some parents want their kids back, but are not willing to change their lifestyle, they are still determined to have it at all cost. 

Then of course you have some parents, like one we are dealing with now that will not do anything right to work on getting her kids back. She will start out for a couple of weeks and then right back in the same mud hole. So yes, some parents will truly disown their kids, might not be the walk up to your door and leave them here type, but they disown them through the life they want to have.


----------



## whchunter (Feb 7, 2008)

*Once Saved Always Saved*

In a post I seemed to get the idea that some believe that once saved always saved. In other words you become saved when you're 15 yo and then you can do any of the major sins you want and sin as many times as you want and you're still saved. I don't see it this way since you're not walking in the way of the Lord.
Sure we all sin but if we are truly christians and walking in the foot steps of God, God and our fellow christian brothers and sisters will assist us and assure that our ways of sin diminish daily and are not major sins.

As to people not being able to help themselves from being queer, I simply don't believe that. First God has provided the direction in his holy word and we are to follow his word. If we follow his word and associate ourselves with fellow christians we won't need to fight this or any sin alone. If we associate ourselves with his word and fellow christians it will allow us to overcome homosexuality just as it will any other temptation. I don't believe that people are born queers. I see this as a trend.  Huge numbers of young men and women (in some cases still just kids) are being indoctrinated into the belief that homosexuality is acceptable and ok. They are being taught this everyday through TV, movies and by public and parental acceptance of the practice. Some may be from parents who are liberal minded or possibly "too busy" to instill proper moral values. Allowing homosexual children to remain in the home and their degree of association with the family must be a judgemental thing based on whether the homosexual child will influence others (especiallly younger children living at home) and the age of the child. In all cases I feel rules need to be followed and the I as a parent would meet with all family members and assure everyone knows that it is a sin and that I did not agree or condone the act. I would also be clear that the homosexual child wasn't to bring other homosexual friends/lovers into my home as a respect to me and the rest of the family. At some point as the child became an adult and yet continued in sin, I might have to make some decision to separate from being closely associated with the child. I can't see me continuing a close relationship to the point at which (as you see on TV) my son walks in my home for Thanksgiving dinner with his male lover/husband/wife and their adopted kids and we all kiss and hug.


----------



## hogdawg (Feb 7, 2008)

whchunter said:


> As to people not being able to help themselves from being queer, I simply don't believe that.



Could you imagine being attracted the opposite sex and having to fight it?


----------



## Spotlite (Feb 7, 2008)

hogdawg said:


> Could you imagine being attracted the opposite sex and having to fight it?



I have been attracted to many of the opposite sex and had to fight it.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Feb 7, 2008)

Twenty five ought six said:


> I've been involved with foster children for nearly 45 years. One of the biggest problems they have is getting unfit parents to "disown" their children.
> 
> The newspaper is frequently filled with stories of children taken out of foster care that are returned to their unfit parents multiple times, only for the children to come to a tragic end.


 

The two that we just adopted, had been returned to their parents 4 or 5 times before DFACS finally said enough is enough, then the judge gave them about almost 2 years to get their act straight, well they didn't, and willingly gave up parental rights to these two. We just finalized the adoption in January. We are currently fostering the 2's baby sibling, because DFACS didn't know the mom was pregnant when they gave up their parental rights on the other 2. We hope the Judge decides to keep this baby out of their custody and terminate the parents rights as a perventative, because they have already proven they could not raise the kids they had....

DB BB


----------



## Spotlite (Feb 7, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> The two that we just adopted, had been returned to their parents 4 or 5 times before DFACS finally said enough is enough, then the judge gave them about almost 2 years to get their act straight, well they didn't, and willingly gave up parental rights to these two. We just finalized the adoption in January. We are currently fostering the 2's baby sibling, because DFACS didn't know the mom was pregnant when they gave up their parental rights on the other 2. We hope the Judge decides to keep this baby out of their custody and terminate the parents rights as a perventative, because they have already proven they could not raise the kids they had....
> 
> DB BB



Hope it goes good and fast for yall. Maybe he can do it before the baby is old enough to remember having to go through all that mix up and confusion


----------



## Lead Poison (Feb 7, 2008)

hogdawg said:


> What if your child was a devout Christian and followed the Lords word to the T, and was completely involved in the church, but deep down inside he/she  had an attraction to the same sex, just as a heterosexual has to the opposite sex.  Do you think they should suppress it their whole lives and never be completely happy?  I'm not taking a side on this, it's just a question.  Don't attack me.



I'll answer that one...YES, all sin should be turned away from. You cannot embrace sin and expect to be blessed!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## jmharris23 (Feb 7, 2008)

Spotlite said:


> I have been attracted to many of the opposite sex and had to fight it.



Boy aint that the truth!


----------



## Twenty five ought six (Feb 7, 2008)

Many of the opposite sex have been attracted to me and I have had to fight it.

We all have our private burdens to bear.


----------



## pfharris1965 (Feb 7, 2008)

*...*



Twenty five ought six said:


> Many of the opposite sex have been attracted to me and I have had to fight it.
> 
> We all have our private burdens to bear.


 
Be a bummer for you to find out they were mostly tranny's...


----------



## dawg2 (Feb 7, 2008)

WPH44 said:


> Be a bummer for you to find out they were mostly tranny's...


----------



## Twenty five ought six (Feb 7, 2008)

> Be a *bummer *for you to find out they were mostly tranny's...



You probably didn't really mean to say that.


Or did you?


----------



## pfharris1965 (Feb 7, 2008)

*...*



Twenty five ought six said:


> You probably didn't really mean to say that.
> 
> 
> Or did you?


 
ooops...I think...I will go hit the urban dictionary and see what I find out...


----------



## pfharris1965 (Feb 8, 2008)

*...*



Twenty five ought six said:


> You probably didn't really mean to say that.
> 
> 
> Or did you?


 


WPH44 said:


> ooops...I think...I will go hit the urban dictionary and see what I find out...


 
Yep...purely by accident but the definition fits...


----------



## dawg2 (Feb 8, 2008)

WPH44 said:


> Yep...purely by accident but the definition fits...



We talking about the UK definition?


----------



## pfharris1965 (Feb 8, 2008)

*...*



dawg2 said:


> We talking about the UK definition?


 




We will now see who knows how to "Google" won't we...


----------



## HuntDawg (Feb 15, 2008)

I can not wait until the day that Homosexual feelings is proven to be a genetic disorder.  What will people say then?  I guess the world is still flat.

To the original poster.  Have you ever asked your child when and why they became gay?  I would assume you have not, because they would tell you that they were born this way.  It sounds like you raised your child to be a Christian and a good member of society.  If this "Gay" thing is a choice, then why did they make that choice after being taught that it is wrong all of their lives.  I can not imagine why these questions have not been asked if indeed it is a choice.

When I talk about it being a choice, I understand the sexual act being a choice, but what about their feelings.  

It is not understandable to me how someone can say that the feelings are a choice.  If it is a choice, then every heterosexual in the world should be able to tell you when they became a heterosexual.  Ofcourse they will not be able to tell you because they will say they were born that way.  Why can our society not at least say to ourselves, since heterosexuals do not choose, then just maybe, just maybe, homosexuals did not choose. 

Do you choose your favorite color.  Heck no, it is just the color that is most pleasing to you.  

Bottom line is that if Homosexual feelings are chosen and not some sort of genetic birth defect, then watch out when you spend the night at hunting camp.  Your buddy just might wake up in the middle of the night a choose to be gay.

I will close by saying that it is impossible for me to become gay.  I mean impossible.  I was born to be attracted to women.  I will never be attracted to men.  My parts would not work with a man, if you know what I mean.  Even if I thought I could choose to have sexual relations with a man, my part would not work.  This in itself proves to me that I could never choose to be a homosexual.


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Feb 16, 2008)

brownhounds said:


> Raise UP your child the way YOU want them to be raised and they will NOT part from it.



  

Yeah, RIGHT!!!!


----------



## jcarter (Feb 16, 2008)

i think there is a separate heaven for gays. just like there is for dogs, cats and mormons.


----------



## FishHunt (Feb 16, 2008)

Spotlite said:


> 2.  What is the difference in homosexuality and murder? Both are wrong.



Hypothetical question for all of you that think along these same lines...

Let's say your child grew up to be either a homosexual or a serial killer which would you prefer and why?


----------



## Spotlite (Feb 16, 2008)

FishHunt said:


> Hypothetical question for all of you that think along these same lines...
> 
> Let's say your child grew up to be either a homosexual or a serial killer which would you prefer and why?



Neither, cause both are wrong.


----------



## Twenty five ought six (Feb 16, 2008)

> ROM 1: 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, *debate*, deceit, *malignity*; whisperers,



Fornication = debate = malignity if I"m reading the above correctly.




> Yall can debate each other till your blue in the face,



I'm not saying nothing about no one doing nothing to nobody.


----------



## FishHunt (Feb 16, 2008)

Spotlite said:


> Neither, cause both are wrong.



Why even respond if you aren't going to play along? I'm betting you would choose the homosexual...I know I would.


----------



## GAGE (Feb 16, 2008)

HuntDawg said:


> I can not wait until the day that Homosexual feelings is proven to be a genetic disorder.  What will people say then?  I guess the world is still flat.
> 
> To the original poster.  Have you ever asked your child when and why they became gay?  I would assume you have not, because they would tell you that they were born this way.  It sounds like you raised your child to be a Christian and a good member of society.  If this "Gay" thing is a choice, then why did they make that choice after being taught that it is wrong all of their lives.  I can not imagine why these questions have not been asked if indeed it is a choice.
> 
> ...



Good Post HD!


----------



## Jim Thompson (Feb 16, 2008)

HuntDawg said:


> I can not wait until the day that Homosexual feelings is proven to be a genetic disorder.  What will people say then?  I guess the world is still flat.
> 
> To the original poster.  Have you ever asked your child when and why they became gay?  I would assume you have not, because they would tell you that they were born this way.  It sounds like you raised your child to be a Christian and a good member of society.  If this "Gay" thing is a choice, then why did they make that choice after being taught that it is wrong all of their lives.  I can not imagine why these questions have not been asked if indeed it is a choice.
> 
> ...



agreed on all points


----------



## PWalls (Feb 16, 2008)

GAGE said:


> Good Post HD!



Actually it was fatally flawed from the beginning. For his logic to make sense, then you have to believe and trust in a God who would create His children with the desire for abomination from the moment they are born. You do realize that is what God calls homosexuality right? Abomination. So, why would a God who loves His creation and His children program them for abomination from the moment they are born? The answer is simple. He doesn't. Homosexuality is a plain and simple choice that people choose to make.


----------



## Jim Thompson (Feb 16, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Actually it was fatally flawed from the beginning. For his logic to make sense, then you have to believe and trust in a God who would create His children with the desire for abomination from the moment they are born. You do realize that is what God calls homosexuality right? Abomination. So, why would a God who loves His creation and His children program them for abomination from the moment they are born? The answer is simple. He doesn't. Homosexuality is a plain and simple choice that people choose to make.



what about being born with no arms or legs or functioning kidneys etc?


----------



## Lead Poison (Feb 16, 2008)

Jim Thompson said:


> agreed on all points



God considers it an abomination; that settles it whether we believe it, or not. 

BTW, he didn't say the same thing about birth defects so obviously that isn't a choice made by the individual.


----------



## Jim Thompson (Feb 16, 2008)

I was basically saying that the world is not perfect and its very possible in my mind that folks do not make this decision.  I honestly cant remember ever making the decision that I like women...I was born with it.

I also cannot imagine ever making the decision to be ridiculed for the rest of my life by choosing to be gay


----------



## PWalls (Feb 16, 2008)

Jim Thompson said:


> I was basically saying that the world is not perfect and its very possible in my mind that folks do not make this decision.  I honestly cant remember ever making the decision that I like women...I was born with it.



Of course you don't ever remember making a decision that you liked women. God created you and me with that desire because that was His plan from the beginning. His plan never considered man/man or woman/woman. That was and is abomination. His plan is perfect. Our free will choices is what messes up the canvas and muddies the water.


----------



## GAGE (Feb 16, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Of course you don't ever remember making a decision that you liked women. God created you and me with that desire because that was His plan from the beginning. His plan never considered man/man or woman/woman. That was and is abomination. His plan is perfect. Our free will choices is what messes up the canvas and muddies the water.



Do you have anyone close to you (you know an abonination) who is gay?


----------



## PWalls (Feb 16, 2008)

GAGE said:


> Do you have anyone close to you (you know an abonination) who is gay?




To my knowledge, no.


Oh, and, please be careful with the insinuations. I have never called "someone" an abomination. The sin is what God calls an abomination. The sinner is just that, a sinner.


----------



## Branchminnow (Feb 16, 2008)

TO be a tech fan......you sure do hang on like a an old bulldawg......Im sorry I was not hear to get hold and help you pull the issue a little further. but heres a little encouragement.......WOOOOOOOOOOOF WOOOOOOOOOOOF!


----------



## dawg2 (Feb 16, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Actually it was fatally flawed from the beginning. For his logic to make sense, then you have to believe and trust in a God who would create His children with the desire for abomination from the moment they are born. You do realize that is what God calls homosexuality right? Abomination. So, why would a God who loves His creation and His children program them for abomination from the moment they are born? The answer is simple. He doesn't. Homosexuality is a plain and simple choice that people choose to make.





Jim Thompson said:


> what about being born with no arms or legs or functioning kidneys etc?



Didn't hear an answer on this one....


----------



## Branchminnow (Feb 16, 2008)

come on dawg.....apples and oranges. Its already been scripturally (sp) shown that it is an abomination. 
Its not an abomination to be born with birth defects.


----------



## Spotlite (Feb 16, 2008)

Jim Thompson said:


> what about being born with no arms or legs or functioning kidneys etc?



So do you think its possible for a child to be born a thief or is it a path he chose due to his upbringings and teachings or simply circumstances?

I may not remember when I decided to like girls, but I do know it felt natural to me due to the way I was taught.

Well? I know, deep subject.


----------



## PWalls (Feb 16, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Didn't hear an answer on this one....



Didn't think it needed one as the analogy was not even close to being on track with the subject at hand.


----------



## mudawg (Feb 16, 2008)

GAGE said:


> Do you have anyone close to you (you know an abonination) who is gay?



My uncle was, but of all things he died of AIDS. I think I was like 7 when he died.


----------



## pfharris1965 (Feb 16, 2008)

*...*



GAGE said:


> Do you have anyone close to you (you know an abonination) who is gay?


 
Heck...the world is full of sinners...homosexuality is a sin as is murder as is stealing as is...well you get the picture...sin is sin is sin...but I ain't sitting on the throne of judgement...so I say let it go...

There are people I know that are gay...I do not make an active effort to "hang out" with them but also when I do happen to be around them, their sexuality is not something that I feel needs to have open discussion and never does no more than they want to hear of any of my heterosexual exploits...to each his own as I have always had the policy of not judging until such time as I can say with no doubt and the Good Lord confirms that I am perfect and without sin.

Heck...if a homosexual is an abomination then so is a murderer and a thief...heck I have even been told here that even though I am divorced (from an adulteress) through no fault of my own that I am a sinner and not welcomed in most Baptist churches because I remarried......I guess I too am an abomination......to a handful here at least...bottom line is what is thought about me or any others (no matter the reason) within the confines of a closed mind is of no consequence...I am saved and that is all that matters...Jesus has an open heart and mind and he loves us all and I dare anyone here to dispute that statement openly...

The only thing that is certain is that no one of this Earth knows for sure and any opinions rendered are just that and nothing more...


----------



## Lead Poison (Feb 17, 2008)

I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God and it clearly oulines God's view (disgust) of homosexuality. 

Apparently, many of you choose not to believe God, because you don't understand how homosexuality is a choice.


----------



## Lead Poison (Feb 17, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Of course you don't ever remember making a decision that you liked women. God created you and me with that desire because that was His plan from the beginning. His plan never considered man/man or woman/woman. That was and is abomination. His plan is perfect. Our free will choices is what messes up the canvas and muddies the water.



Good post.


----------



## jneil (Feb 17, 2008)

I wouldn't go comparing homosexuals to thieves and murderers. Homosexuality isn't a malicous act, there is no victim.


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## tcward (Feb 17, 2008)

If you haven't already, read Leviticus 18:29, Leviticus 20:13, and Romans 1: 26-27:


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## pfharris1965 (Feb 17, 2008)

*...*



jneil said:


> I wouldn't go comparing homosexuals to thieves and murderers. Homosexuality isn't a malicous act, there is no victim.


 
Uhhh maybe you missed my point...I did that comparison purely for effect ...did you not see my statement that if homosexuality is an abomination so is murdering and stealing ...point being that one hardly ever sees these fellows call murder or stealing an abomination...which makes no sense...because they are far more heinous than a consensual act between 2 adults...

Heck some of the folks here have told me that I am an adulterer because I am divorced and remarried and that a lot of baptist churches would not welcome me...

Bottom line is they foolishly group homosexuality, my adulterous ways  , and murdering and thievery in together...

Know what I mean now...


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## Jim Thompson (Feb 17, 2008)

Spotlite said:


> So do you think its possible for a child to be born a thief or is it a path he chose due to his upbringings and teachings or simply circumstances?



in that instance I believe it is a chosen path by the thief.

abd pwalls is correct that my question of being born without arms or legs or kidney is not relevant, however what I was trying to point out is that some folks are born flawed...ie a mistake was made during creation somewhere somehow.

thats the exact same thing I believe about how homosexuals are wired...they have no choice in their interest or love for the same sex.  they can however make a choice on whether or not to act on those feelings or needs.  BUT personally I dont blame them for being happy.

kinda like deer hunting to me.  I was born with it in me.  I feel I have no choice but to do it...although many around me would say its a choice (my ex wives for instance) and they would be correct...but should I decide not to act on the incredibly strong feeling that drives me and pulls me...then I would be unhappy for the remainder of my life. 

hows that for a far stretched thought process


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## pfharris1965 (Feb 17, 2008)

Jim Thompson said:


> in that instance I believe it is a chosen path by the thief.
> 
> abd pwalls is correct that my question of being born without arms or legs or kidney is not relevant, however what I was trying to point out is that some folks are born flawed...ie a mistake was made during creation somewhere somehow.
> 
> ...



sorry...

Best darn statement of the whole thread ...who'd a thunk you had it in ya JT  

As for choices...well I found happiness when I finally convinced myself that staying with my ex-wife was a choice and I found immense happiness and joy the day the judge signed the decree...


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## jneil (Feb 17, 2008)

WPH44 said:


> Uhhh maybe you missed my point...I did that comparison purely for effect ...did you not see my statement that if homosexuality is an abomination so is murdering and stealing ...point being that one hardly ever sees these fellows call murder or stealing an abomination...which makes no sense...because they are far more heinous than a consensual act between 2 adults...
> 
> Heck some of the folks here have told me that I am an adulterer because I am divorced and remarried and that a lot of baptist churches would not welcome me...
> 
> ...



I wasn't directing anything towards you WPH44, your post just happened to mention it and it got me to thinking.


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## pfharris1965 (Feb 17, 2008)

*...*



jneil said:


> I wasn't directing anything towards you WPH44, your post just happened to mention it and it got me to thinking.


 
Oh I know man...it is all good here...


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## dawg2 (Feb 17, 2008)

jneil said:


> I wouldn't go comparing homosexuals to thieves and murderers. Homosexuality isn't a malicous act, there is no victim.



Sure there can be: a married man who tells his wife he is gay, his kids, his family, his friends...it can definitely affect more than just the individual.


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## fishndinty (Feb 17, 2008)

I guess a better analogy here might be one several people on this board can relate more directly to (myself included):  what about people who are gluttonous?

I am overweight and struggle daily with eating more than I need.  That is a weakness that I have not CHOSEN.  I have always had the predisposition to eat too much....it's in my family and genetic (there is ample scientific evidence to support this).

Likewise, there is ample scientific evidence to support a genetic predisposition for homosexuality.  Just because the Bible doesn't speak directly about homosexuality being genetic doesn't mean that it isn't so.  God has given us brains and the ability to experiment and learn more about His creation--to not use those gifts is sin as much as coveting your neighbor's wife.

So, given that homosexuality is a genetic predisposition just like gluttony is, does that mean that people with homosexuality are excused from living within the will of God?  Of course not.   Are people who have always struggled with their weight excused from God's commands regarding treating one's body as the temple of the Holy Spirit?  No.  But what this discussion should reveal is the fact that all our struggles with sin (be it homosexuality, gluttony, laziness, apathy, etc...) need to be approached with love and understanding by the Christian community.  We're all sinners, and each of us guilty of breaking the least of God's commands are guilty of breaking the lot of them.  We're all murderers, liars, homosexuals, and gluttons in need of the grace of God.  Don't forget that next time you meet a person who you think is an abomination.


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## jmharris23 (Feb 17, 2008)

One thing we need to undertstand is that scripture never teaches that we should pursue happiness in the hedonistic sense of the word. Sometimes for those who are Christ followers we must do the very thing that pleases us the least. This is why the call to follow Christ is serious and severe. 

Let me tell you that there are lots of things that I don't do that I would LOVE to do!

I will use JT's example of deer hunting. I love to deer hunt, I eat it, sleep it, breathe it, to the point of obsession. No one on this board likes to hunt any more than I do. I can promise you that. I want to spend pretty much all my money and time on deer hunting. I WANT to travel to other states, I WANT to be on great leases. I COULD do this, but it would be to the negligence of my wife and home whom I love dearly.

Therefore I hunt as much as she can stand(which is an awful lot), I hunt a lot of public land, some friends land, and I have a small crappy lease(but its mine). I most likely wont kill a booner doing this, but its worth it TO ME for the trade-off of  being in a happy, healthy, productive relationship with my wife.

Same goes for the Christian life. I will forgo some things that my flesh really, really wants to do, to be in a happy, healthy, productive relationship with Christ


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## jneil (Feb 17, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Sure there can be: a married man who tells his wife he is gay, his kids, his family, his friends...it can definitely affect more than just the individual.



All the more reason not to try and hide it.


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## Jim Thompson (Feb 17, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Sure there can be: a married man who tells his wife he is gay, his kids, his family, his friends...it can definitely affect more than just the individual.



course the same can be said of anyone who strays, no matter which direction they lean


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## pfharris1965 (Feb 17, 2008)

*...*



Jim Thompson said:


> course the same can be said of anyone who strays, no matter which direction they lean


 
...that ought to send a few into a top spin man...

I am skeert when you and I think alike...pretty soon I will be taking pics of my feet and posting them...only difference is mine are bigger...


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## Branchminnow (Feb 17, 2008)

Jim Thompson said:


> in that instance I believe it is a chosen path by the thief.
> 
> abd pwalls is correct that my question of being born without arms or legs or kidney is not relevant, however what I was trying to point out is that some folks are born flawed...ie a mistake was made during creation somewhere somehow.
> 
> ...



About as far out as Barry Bonds belonging in the hall of Fame and legalizing Marijuana....


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## Spotlite (Feb 17, 2008)

Jim Thompson said:


> in that instance I believe it is a chosen path by the thief.
> 
> abd pwalls is correct that my question of being born without arms or legs or kidney is not relevant, however what I was trying to point out is that some folks are born flawed...ie a mistake was made during creation somewhere somehow.
> 
> ...



Alright, who typed that for you


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## dawg2 (Feb 17, 2008)

Jim Thompson said:


> course the same can be said of anyone who strays, no matter which direction they lean



Oh I agree.  I still think there is a "biological" reason for it.  I do not see somebody "choosing" to find the same sex "attractive."  There was even a show on TLC or Discovery (I do not remember which) and they were talking about some biological differences in gay versus straight (chemistry in the brain) and I had also read a study where MRI's /Thermal Imaging of the brain was done on various criminals in prison and they were very close to saying they could map a brain and tell if their brain was predisposed to violent crime, just by the brain mapping study....


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## Ulysses (Feb 17, 2008)

Whether or not homosexual tendecies are genetic is completely irrelevant in my opinion. We all "inherit" from Adam and Eve the predisposition to sin, but it does not excuse us from acting on our disordered impulses.

Fortunately, we all are welcome to the cure, which is Jesus Christ. Resisting sin can be a very painful process, but I also know from experience--and probably we all do--that if you rely on God for long enough, even the desire to sin diminishes in time.

Certainly anyone who suffers from temptation to sexual sin of any time deserves our love, acceptance, and support. But under no circumstances are we to enable or overlook their sin. The 'happiness' they may have from an illicit relationship pales in comparison to the true joy of being in God's friendship and receiving the gift of eternal life.


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## PWalls (Feb 18, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Oh I agree.  I still think there is a "biological" reason for it.  I do not see somebody "choosing" to find the same sex "attractive."  There was even a show on TLC or Discovery (I do not remember which) and they were talking about some biological differences in gay versus straight (chemistry in the brain) and I had also read a study where MRI's /Thermal Imaging of the brain was done on various criminals in prison and they were very close to saying they could map a brain and tell if their brain was predisposed to violent crime, just by the brain mapping study....



So, you think God designed certain specific people predispositioned to a life of abomination in His eyes? You believe that He not only could do that but that He would do that? Why? For His amusement?

Yep, God gave me the free will to sin. However, He doesn't make me sin.

Sorry, that genetic or biological excuse is just that. An excuse. And not a plausible one at that.


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## Lead Poison (Feb 18, 2008)

Ulysses said:


> Whether or not homosexual tendecies are genetic is completely irrelevant in my opinion. We all "inherit" from Adam and Eve the predisposition to sin, but it does not excuse us from acting on our disordered impulses.
> 
> Fortunately, we all are welcome to the cure, which is Jesus Christ. Resisting sin can be a very painful process, but I also know from experience--and probably we all do--that if you rely on God for long enough, even the desire to sin diminishes in time.
> 
> Certainly anyone who suffers from temptation to sexual sin of any time deserves our love, acceptance, and support. But under no circumstances are we to enable or overlook their sin. The 'happiness' they may have from an illicit relationship pales in comparison to the true joy of being in God's friendship and receiving the gift of eternal life.



Ulysses...EXCELLENT post...thanks!


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## Branchminnow (Feb 18, 2008)

jmharris23 said:


> One thing we need to undertstand is that scripture never teaches that we should pursue happiness in the hedonistic sense of the word. Sometimes for those who are Christ followers we must do the very thing that pleases us the least. This is why the call to follow Christ is serious and severe.
> 
> Let me tell you that there are lots of things that I don't do that I would LOVE to do!
> 
> ...




Good post. And the truth


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## dawg2 (Feb 18, 2008)

PWalls said:


> So, you think God designed certain specific people predispositioned to a life of abomination in His eyes? You believe that He not only could do that but that He would do that? Why? For His amusement?



I honestly have no idea.  People are born with schizophrenia, bi-polar disorders, manic depressant, and all sorts of disorders.  In fact, some of those people go on and kill or hurt people.  I am not defending the lifestyle nor the people with those disorders that do evil things to other people.  What I am saying is there is more to it.  I do however believe that some do make it a choise, and have seen it especially in yonger females choosing a "bi" lifestyle because it is "cool" or because others are doing it.

It really would not surprise me if it had more to do with the man-made chemicals (that mimic estrogen) in our waters supplies.  They have already documented fish, reptiles, and amphibians in our waterways with anomalies attributed to elevated chemicals that mimic estrogen.  Who knows...


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## Lead Poison (Feb 18, 2008)

*It's not hard to understand...*

If homosexuality wasn't a sin (and a choice) God wouldn't hold people accountable...it's that simple folks.


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## Branchminnow (Feb 18, 2008)

LP you pretty much summed this thread up for me.


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## Ulysses (Feb 18, 2008)

Yup, that pretty much sums it up.


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## Jim Thompson (Feb 18, 2008)

let me ask one more question...

since lust (even if not acting on it) is a sin what happens if you have a homosexual who does not act on his/her homosexual urges and lives his/her life alone but still has lust in the heart.  how is this sin handled?  would god look at this sin the same as a straight man having lust in his heart towards the opposite sex?


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## Bitteroot (Feb 18, 2008)

Children are born daily with predisposed addictions to alcohol and drugs.  For the sake of argumment, even if a child was born predisposed to being gay ( which I do not believe can happen) it is still the responsability of parents to raise the child in the way that it should go.  You have to realize first and formost your responsability to your family starts with your spouse, and then your children.  In about 18 years they are going to leave, right , wrong, or indifferent!  The person you are left with is bonded to you by choise and you became as one before God.  Your children must now make thier own choices and with that come consequinces.  It is  no longer an issue we should allow to pull us down spiritually.  Emotionally there is probably no cure except prayer and allowing God to heal your pain.  But the child, if taught correctly from the begining, either knows the truth and has ignored it, or will except the truth and embrace it!  They will no longer be your burden to bear!  

"I was a much better parent, before I actually became one"!


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## Spotlite (Feb 18, 2008)

Jim Thompson said:


> let me ask one more question...
> 
> since lust (even if not acting on it) is a sin what happens if you have a homosexual who does not act on his/her homosexual urges and lives his/her life alone but still has lust in the heart.  how is this sin handled?  would god look at this sin the same as a straight man having lust in his heart towards the opposite sex?



I think he would view it as the same, lust is lust.


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## fishndinty (Feb 18, 2008)

Jim,
You ask an intriguing question.  Many of the fathers of the Christian faith as well as noted Christian philosophers have addressed this issue.  Their consensus seems to be that there is a difference between having a fleeting thought, and letting that thought take root in and control one's mind.

For example, I am a married man.  When a beautiful woman walks by me or flashes on my TV screen, sometimes an improper thought might jump into my head.  I have no control over that thought other than not putting myself in a position to have it (IE not watching filth on TV, etc)...but we can't stay in a locked, whitewalled room all the time, so the thoughts are going to jump in our heads from time to time.

It's what we do next that is crucial.  Do we recognize the sinfulness of that thought for what it is, and push/pray it out of our minds immediately, or do we allow that thought to take root, mature, and become lustful and improper?

The same could be said for a person with homosexual tendencies...though they are genetically predisposed to having those feelings, do they allow those feelings to control their thoughts and take root as lust, or do they through the grace of God master those feelings and not allow them to mature?

Anyone can have a fleeting thought toward sin.  It's how we respond to those thoughts first in our minds, and then in our lives that matters.  That's the basic jist of what Augustine, Cotton Mather,C.S. Lewis, and several other noted Christian philosophers seem to conclude.
                        -Dinty


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## Jim Thompson (Feb 18, 2008)

wonder if it would be wrong for a woman with zero attraction to men to marry, have kids and live a life of bliss with a man?


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## Spotlite (Feb 18, 2008)

Jim Thompson said:


> wonder if it would be wrong for a woman with zero attraction to men to marry, have kids and live a life of bliss with a man?



I dont see where it would be wrong. It would be meaningless but not wrong......................unless she slept around


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## dawg2 (Feb 18, 2008)

Jim Thompson said:


> wonder if it would be wrong for a woman with zero attraction to men to marry, have kids and live a life of bliss with a man?


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## dawg2 (Feb 18, 2008)

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=176230

2 Bucks...


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## Ulysses (Feb 18, 2008)

fishndinty said:


> Jim,
> You ask an intriguing question.  Many of the fathers of the Christian faith as well as noted Christian philosophers have addressed this issue.  Their consensus seems to be that there is a difference between having a fleeting thought, and letting that thought take root in and control one's mind.
> 
> For example, I am a married man.  When a beautiful woman walks by me or flashes on my TV screen, sometimes an improper thought might jump into my head.  I have no control over that thought other than not putting myself in a position to have it (IE not watching filth on TV, etc)...but we can't stay in a locked, whitewalled room all the time, so the thoughts are going to jump in our heads from time to time.
> ...



Exactly right, I would say.


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## HuntDawg (Feb 18, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Actually it was fatally flawed from the beginning. For his logic to make sense, then you have to believe and trust in a God who would create His children with the desire for abomination from the moment they are born. You do realize that is what God calls homosexuality right? Abomination. So, why would a God who loves His creation and His children program them for abomination from the moment they are born? The answer is simple. He doesn't. Homosexuality is a plain and simple choice that people choose to make.



Here is where we differ.  I am not trying to gross anyone out or tread on any biblical beliefs.  My first point is that it seems as if you combine the feelings of homosexuality with the actual act.  Can we agree that the two are different.  Feelings are different than actions.  Just as you may feel for a certain woman, you may not act on your feelings.  

With that said, if you believe homosexuality is a choice, then you must agree that you "could" choose to have these feelings if you wanted to.  My arguement is that I could never make this choice, because it is not physically possible for me to obtain an erection with a man. The brain is the largest sex organ, and I agree, if you covered my eyes and took the brain out of the equation, then yes, an erection is possible if the brain is tricked.  With that said, your premise that homosexaulity is a choice only confirms to me that you believe that you could fulfill the duties for 2 men to have sex.  I amnot trying to make anyone mad or disrespect someone.  I am just trying to explain that I could never have gay sex as the side who has to have an erection, nor could you, because your brain is not wired this way.  To say that having a gay erection is a choice, then you have to believe that any man could accomplish this task.  I say no.  If a man is heterosexual, and his brain is not tricked (blindfolded, etc.), then it is not possible to become erect.

You also spoke about "desire".  Your premise is that God created us to have a desire for women.  If this desire is instilled in all humans, then how could you possibly obtain a gay erection?  This does not make sense.

I understand that the Bible is God inspired, but can we not even think that the Bible was God inspired for the people it was written for at the time?  I am sure I will really rock the boat now.  We all have to agree that the Bible only covered what was considered as known at the time it was written.  Think about it, the Bible was written by men who thought that the World was flat.  We know this to be wrong today.  No, they do not mention the World being flat in the Bible, but that is what they thought.  Everyone thought this way.  We know this to be incorrect.

In conclusion, I am a Christian and follow the Bible, but do believe that the men who wrote the Bible from God's inspiration, only wrote about laws, and events that covered their time period.  I am in no way saying that God is wrong, I am just saying that these men wrote about things that were known to them in their time.

I guess this is where we differ in our beliefs.


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## hevishot (Feb 18, 2008)

I agree 100% with your post, huntdog. The more I read in this so called "spiritual" forum, the more thankful I am for being raised by my true Christian parents 


edited for content


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## Ulysses (Feb 18, 2008)

HuntDawg said:


> We all have to agree that the Bible only covered what was considered as known at the time it was written.  Think about it, the Bible was written by men who thought that the World was flat.  We know this to be wrong today.  No, they do not mention the World being flat in the Bible, but that is what they thought.  Everyone thought this way.  We know this to be incorrect.



The difference is that whether the world is flat or round is not a matter of faith or morals--it does not matter to God whether we believe the world is flat or round, only that we believe He created the world.

I do believe, as you suggest, that some Laws of the Old Testament no longer apply to us today--kosher dietary laws, for example.

But again, St. Paul condemns homosexuality in the New Testament, which still applies to us today. So while your argument is logically sound, I'd say it does not apply to this topic.


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## Double Barrel BB (Feb 18, 2008)

hevishot said:


> The more I read in this so called "spiritual" forum, the more thankful I am for being raised by my true Christian parents and not by these fruit loopers that claim to be so "right"....its pathetic and so sad for the kids ya'll are programming....


 

Call it programming if you want... But I refuse to program my child in a worldly way....

Our jobs as Christian Parents is to point our children toward Christ, to Correct them when they are wrong, to Love them no matter what they do.

Society will not influence me on how I raise my kids! That is what has gotten this world in the mess it is in today... Parents being too lazy to raise their kids by the Word Of God. And relying on Dr. Spock or one of those other crackpots out there trying to sell parenting books...

It may be alright in society's eyes to teach tolerance. If it is outside the Word Of God then I will not tolerate it.

Now I will go back to programming my child. 

DB BB


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## Ulysses (Feb 18, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Society will not influence me on how I raise my kids! ...
> 
> It may be alright in society's eyes to teach tolerance. If it is outside the Word Of God then I will not tolerate it.



Amen to that. Your kids are blessed, DB BB.


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## hevishot (Feb 18, 2008)

so, then, you say in the above quote "to love them no matter what they do"...do you really mean that?


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## Double Barrel BB (Feb 18, 2008)

hevishot said:


> so, then, you say in the above quote "to love them no matter what they do"...do you really mean that?


 

I will always love my kids, I may not like what they do at times, but my love for them is not conditional...

DB BB


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## hevishot (Feb 18, 2008)

amen..BB, Amen....


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## GAGE (Feb 18, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> I will always love my kids, I may not like what they do at times, but my love for them is not conditional...
> 
> DB BB



Well said BB!


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## PWalls (Feb 18, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> I will always love my kids, I may not like what they do at times, but my love for them is not conditional...
> 
> DB BB



I agree 100% and offer another AMEN!!


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## PWalls (Feb 18, 2008)

HuntDawg said:


> In conclusion, I am a Christian and follow the Bible, but do believe that the men who wrote the Bible from God's inspiration, only wrote about laws, and events that covered their time period.  I am in no way saying that God is wrong, I am just saying that these men wrote about things that were known to them in their time.



Just because time has changed doesn't mean that God nor His Word has. Homosexuality was an abomination then and is still an abomination now. God didn't change. Man and what we want to make OK is what changed. We can come up with whatever excuses for acceptance of what we want to change, but in the end, they are just excuses.


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## dawg2 (Feb 18, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> I will always love my kids, I may not like what they do at times, but my love for them is not conditional...
> 
> DB BB



Very true.


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## hevishot (Feb 18, 2008)

"circle of the earth" doesnt mean "round" a quarter is a circle......once again, its interpretation.....


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## Twenty five ought six (Feb 18, 2008)

There are several folks here that are seeming to get all twisted because homosexuality is an "abomination".

Now as far as I can determine, the only "abomination" specifically referred to in the New Testament is the "love of money".

Homosexuality, if it is an "abomination" is thusly referred to as such only in the Old Testament, along with other "abominations" as oyster stew, improper sacrifice, and more importantly, adultery.

Now I've asked the question before and I'm going to ask it again-- if homosexuality is an "abomination" because it is so defined in the Old Testament, and the practitioners, active or latent, are doomed to ************, why are the adulterers  and their second and third wives or husbands likewise "abominations" and likewise condemned to ************.

Where do we get to pick which "abominations" we want to tee off on?  It's an abomination for a woman to wear anything that pertains to a man --- whose going to tell their sweety that those jeans have to come off because otherwise she's an abomination in the eyes of God?


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## Lead Poison (Feb 18, 2008)

hevishot said:


> I agree 100% with your post, huntdog. The more I read in this so called "spiritual" forum, the more thankful I am for being raised by my true Christian parents
> 
> 
> edited for content



Hevishot, there are some very GOOD Christians that post in the spiritual forum...PWalls, Branch, SBG, Ulysses just to name a few!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## dawg2 (Feb 18, 2008)

Lead Poison said:


> Hevishot, there are some very GOOD Christians that post in the spiritual forum...PWalls, Branch, SBG, Ulysses just to name a few!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Ulysses (Feb 18, 2008)

Sounds like you need to go to confession, Dawg2.


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## dawg2 (Feb 18, 2008)

Ulysses said:


> Sounds like you need to go to confession, Dawg2.



Apparently!


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## PWalls (Feb 18, 2008)

Branchminnow said:


> I dont deny any of it( the word of God), it all ties together so the poster (huntdawg) said that the bible was written and god inspired which is true but to say that it was ONLY written for those at the time.......well is the same thing as saying that God did not know that the world as we know it today would exsist. Which is utterly selling short God and his knowledge of his own creation.



Whoaaaa. Starting to sound like a Preacher Man. 


Thanks Branch. That's good and true stuff.


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## jneil (Feb 18, 2008)

Twenty five ought six said:


> There are several folks here that are seeming to get all twisted because homosexuality is an "abomination".
> 
> Now as far as I can determine, the only "abomination" specifically referred to in the New Testament is the "love of money".
> 
> ...



Guess it depends on how bad of an abomination something is.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 18, 2008)

This tread sure got legs.


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## fishndinty (Feb 18, 2008)

Ask yourself this:  In God's eyes is there any difference, one sin to another?  Is your last slanderous comment any less hurtful to a perfect God than a homosexual's sex act?  I am not debating whether homosexuality is sinful; the Bible makes that very clear.  What I AM debating is the special, unnatural hatred that many Christians have for people who struggle with this sin as opposed to others.  We do a good job of loving the sinner and hating the sin most places....till the sin is homosexuality. Seems like there's a lot of hypocrisy under a thin veil here.  The first thing the church should be doing with gays and lesbians is communicating God's unfailing love for them.  Period.


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## 11P&YBOWHUNTER (Feb 18, 2008)

I never ever thought this thread would last, even in the spiritual forums, but i can honestly say...I SUPPORT LESBIANS!!!


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## Branchminnow (Feb 18, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Whoaaaa. Starting to sound like a Preacher Man.
> 
> 
> Thanks Branch. That's good and true stuff.



The overalls and the hat are what Im as a man, but sometimes the little feller on the inside kills goliath and wins out.

I wonder how many will scratch their head and say WHAT???!! to that statement?


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## Branchminnow (Feb 18, 2008)

WOW! 
That was the first time I used the multiquote....that was neat.


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## dawg2 (Feb 18, 2008)

fishndinty said:


> Ask yourself this:  In God's eyes is there any difference, one sin to another?  Is your last slanderous comment any less hurtful to a perfect God than a homosexual's sex act?  I am not debating whether homosexuality is sinful; the Bible makes that very clear.  What I AM debating is the special, unnatural hatred that many Christians have for people who struggle with this sin as opposed to others.  We do a good job of loving the sinner and hating the sin most places....till the sin is homosexuality. Seems like there's a lot of hypocrisy under a thin veil here.  The first thing the church should be doing with gays and lesbians is communicating God's unfailing love for them.  Period.


What is ironic, is that nobody is condemning fornication, adultery or divorce as vehemently as homosexuality....


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## Spotlite (Feb 18, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> What is ironic, is that nobody is condemning fornication, adultery or divorce as vehemently as homosexuality....



All those others are not as nasty as homosexuality


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## Branchminnow (Feb 18, 2008)

One more thing just to be clear, I dont hate the homosexuals. But I will tell them what the word of God says...as well as the adulterers *****mongers and all other sin. If they dont hear from somebody then they will never hear it.


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## PWalls (Feb 18, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> What is ironic, is that nobody is condemning fornication, adultery or divorce as vehemently as homosexuality....



Thread was about homosexuality. Start another one for the other ones if you want to. And, just to get you a head start on that, those other three are just as bad.


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## dawg2 (Feb 18, 2008)

Spotlite said:


> All those others are not as nasty as homosexuality


Yes they are.  I thought only Catholics "graded" sins as mortal and venial.  That is a double standard


Branchminnow said:


> One more thing just to be clear, I dont hate the homosexuals. But I will tell them what the word of God says...as well as the adulterers *****mongers and all other sin. If they dont hear from somebody then they will never hear it.


I agree.


PWalls said:


> Thread was about homosexuality. Start another one for the other ones if you want to. And, just to get you a head start on that, those other three are just as bad.



You are right about the topic.


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## pfharris1965 (Feb 18, 2008)

*...*



PWalls said:


> Thread was about homosexuality. Start another one for the other ones if you want to. And, just to get you a head start on that, those other three are just as bad.


 
Interesting comparison of "sins"...I am divorced from my son's mother and rightly so because there just weren't enough room in the same bed for my wife and her boyfriend...besides ifn I had slept there and according to the "logic" applied here would I not be guilty of a double whammy...   

To close, if I am a sinner or an adulterer or a *****monger (terms that oft get tossed about in this forum with no concern for one's situation and the associated dynamics) because I am divorced then I have to say I will gladly take those titles over "fool" for staying in the situation...and I will say that I would be willing to bet (oh wait  betting is a sin too though... ) that God will not blame me one bit for leaving...


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## PWalls (Feb 19, 2008)

WPH44 said:


> Interesting comparison of "sins"...I am divorced from my son's mother and rightly so because there just weren't enough room in the same bed for my wife and her boyfriend...besides ifn I had slept there and according to the "logic" applied here would I not be guilty of a double whammy...
> 
> To close, if I am a sinner or an adulterer or a *****monger (terms that oft get tossed about in this forum with no concern for one's situation and the associated dynamics) because I am divorced then I have to say I will gladly take those titles over "fool" for staying in the situation...and I will say that I would be willing to bet (oh wait  betting is a sin too though... ) that God will not blame me one bit for leaving...



Start another thread if you feel led to. Jesus gave a reason for divorce. He gave us the formula for that and if anyone does divorce inside that formula, then I don't see how that can be a sin. Based on only the information in your first paragraph, then a spouse that committs adultery opens the door for a divorce based on Jesus' formula. He didn't say you had to get divorced (but I would understand why and I am sure He did too). The divorces of convenience are what are wrong.


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## Branchminnow (Feb 19, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Start another thread if you feel led to. Jesus gave a reason for divorce. He gave us the formula for that and if anyone does divorce inside that formula, then I don't see how that can be a sin. Based on only the information in your first paragraph, then a spouse that committs adultery opens the door for a divorce based on Jesus' formula. He didn't say you had to get divorced (but I would understand why and I am sure He did too). The divorces of convenience are what are wrong.



there is a reason for divorce and like Pwalls I think you fall into that category.


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## HuntDawg (Feb 19, 2008)

Branchminnow said:


> 40: 21  Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?
> ISA  40: 22  It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:



I would say nice try, but really, are you kidding.  I guess Isaiah was the only person in the World who thought the world was round.  No one at this time thought the World was a sphere.  This is an example of picking and chosing scripture.  We know histroically that no one thought the world was a sphere at this time.  Refering to a circle is a flat object.  It is today and it was back then.  To use this scripture as a source that Isaiah was saying that the World is a sphere as we know it today is dishonest.


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## HuntDawg (Feb 19, 2008)

Branchminnow said:


> Something for you to think about but i can tell you this there is also scripture that reads like this
> 
> 1: 8  All things are full of labour; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.
> ECC  1: 9  The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. ECC  1: 10  Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
> ...



Selling God short?  I guess you did not understand my premise.  I intended to get across the fact, and it is a fact, that the writers of the Bible discussed only the events, laws, etc. of their time and their past.  This is fact.  They never mentioned airplanes, computers, dishwashers, because they had no idea that these things would exist.  Ofcourse God knew these things would exsist and that we would evolve technologicaly. The people of the Bible wrote about their lives at their time, because that is all the knew.  They did not know the future, other than Christ coming back.  

They could not phathom talking about future stuff, becuase they did not know.  I believe God chose it this way, in order to help make the concept believeable.

Homosexuality was considered wrong before the Bible was written as well.  It is considered wrong by other cultures that have never heard of the Bible.  

Why do you think this is?  Did God tell them it was wrong through another source.  Ofcourse not, humans from most all societies have considered it wrong.  

As I stated before, someday homosexuality will be proven to be genetic.  What will be the reasons for abomination at that point?


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## fishndinty (Feb 19, 2008)

*Ouch, Branch!*

So are you saying that there's no possibility of homosexuality being genetic?  The Bible doesn't say that anyplace.  It is very clear that the homosexual lifestyle is an immoral one...but please point to the scripture that says it's not genetic.

There is ample scientific evidence to conclude that gay people are wired that way from birth, genetically speaking.  I am a biochemist and have studied the evidence as a believer.  I am not saying this gives gay people the right to ignore God's mandate over their lives....just that some people are _born_ with a struggle to face in homosexuality.

We're all born in sin since Adam.  And we all have our particular areas of weakness...why do Christians have to single out people who struggle with homosexuality as worse than all the other sinners?
                     -D


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## Branchminnow (Feb 19, 2008)

fishndinty said:


> So are you saying that there's no possibility of homosexuality being genetic?  The Bible doesn't say that anyplace.  It is very clear that the homosexual lifestyle is an immoral one...but please point to the scripture that says it's not genetic.
> 
> There is ample scientific evidence to conclude that gay people are wired that way from birth, genetically speaking.  I am a biochemist and have studied the evidence as a believer.  I am not saying this gives gay people the right to ignore God's mandate over their lives....just that some people are _born_ with a struggle to face in homosexuality.
> 
> ...



No that was not what i was doing and if you have read any of my post before, the insinuation that I would use God's word for my opinions is ridiculous.
My posts in fact are trying to educate those who have trouble believing that God already knew all these things that have happened, would. 
personally I think it is NOT given at birth.

Again if you are accusing me of singling out any particular sin or wrongdoing then you have not read this entire thread, if you think that, educate yourself on the postings that I have made in this forum.


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## fishndinty (Feb 19, 2008)

*whoops*

Branch,
I don't think you're out of line in your interpretation of the Bible at all...I just don't think the Bible addresses the issue of whether homosexuality is genetic anywhere.  That's all I was getting at 

I wasn't trying to say you were bending Scripture to suit your opinions.  You actually seem like a very levelheaded fellow, not one to do something so silly 

I just wonder: how much scientific evidence would it take to convince you that homosexuality is genetic? Is there any amount of evidence that would?
                              -Dinty


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## Branchminnow (Feb 19, 2008)

fishndinty said:


> Branch,
> I don't think you're out of line in your interpretation of the Bible at all...I just don't think the Bible addresses the issue of whether homosexuality is genetic anywhere.  That's all I was getting at
> 
> I wasn't trying to say you were bending Scripture to suit your opinions.  You actually seem like a very levelheaded fellow, not one to do something so silly
> ...



You would be surprised at how much it would take.


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## Branchminnow (Feb 19, 2008)

Went back and deleted most of my posts. Reason was pretty clear personal, unwarranted attacks on my beliefs and intelligence,and honesty (almost fell right in with it too) I donot have to nor will I make anyone accept the way I believe. The facts are all in the scripture all I did was point that out.


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## Dixie Dawg (Feb 19, 2008)

PWalls said:


> So, you think God designed certain specific people predispositioned to a life of abomination in His eyes? You believe that He not only could do that but that He would do that? Why? For His amusement?
> 
> Yep, God gave me the free will to sin. However, He doesn't make me sin.
> 
> Sorry, that genetic or biological excuse is just that. An excuse. And not a plausible one at that.



Oh what a tangled web it is when science interferes with faith, isn't it?  Not to mention when the bible negates itself... this is where you have so many problems with 'interpretation' and understanding. Forget about the verses that explicitly express that God creates both good AND evil... that of course is explained away (and not plausibly, at that).  But, I digress.....

My career involves counseling of a sexual nature, and I work with homosexual men, crossdressers, transexuals, transgenders, etc. on a daily basis.  I can tell you that none of them CHOOSE to be the way they are... in fact, many of them are in deep depression from trying to DENY what their inner urges tell them, and from trying to live as society deems 'correct'.  Many of them have married and started families in order to try and conform to what society says is the way they should be, but inside they know they are living a lie, they keep these innermost feelings in secret.  They have tried counseling, they have tried religion, they have even tried medication, but none of these things changes the way they are 'wired' inside.  There are many cases where living the lie has resulted in some of these individuals taking their own lives to escape the inner torment that they faced in a constant level. 

 Most of them have known since as early as the age of 4 or 5 that they were 'different'.  They were drawn to playing with Barbies, or dolls, and wearing girl's clothing, even if it was punished by their parents... as they grew older they would do it in secret because they truly felt that is what they were meant to be inside.  How can you say that a 4 or 5 year old child CHOOSES to be punished or ridiculed because they prefer to wear Disney Princess panties instead of Spiderman underoos?  Give me a break.

Not only that, but I would estimate that 75% of my clients do NOT do any of this for sexual pleasure.  I add this tidbit in here for the closed-minded bigots like many on here who lump crossdressers, homosexuals, transgenders and the like all into the same 'sinful abomination' group.  This comes from an ignorance on the subject and unfortunately that will not change, due to the fact that most who point their fingers don't really care about the semantics...  they just want to make sure everyone knows they are 'right' and somehow biblically justified in their disgust of the abberation of individuals who don't fit in their perfect mold.

The FACT of the matter is that science is coming closer and closer to showing that homosexual tendencies are biological and/or genetic.  The evidence is out there, many studies having been done on homosexuals and levels of certain specific hormones, etc. but none of the bible-thumpers care enough to even look at the information because that would bust a hole in the foundation of all they stand for and believe in.  And of course, that just can't happen, now, can it?  You might have to actually think for yourself!  

As far as what God would or wouldn't do... take a look back at the "Old Testament" and see what God did to seemingly further His own agenda.... 'hardening' of hearts, causing some to not listen or hear, etc. and then try to present your case again on what God surely wouldn't do?  Is it any wonder why more and more people are second guessing or rejecting this book?  While you will probably chalk that up  as 'biblical prophecy of the end times',  I see it as full-circle coming around. Yes, the bible has done much to promote civilization as we know it today... but it has also promoted more bloodshed and violence than any other book in history.


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## Hooty Hoot (Feb 19, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Oh what a tangled web it is when science interferes with faith, isn't it?  Not to mention when the bible negates itself... this is where you have so many problems with 'interpretation' and understanding. Forget about the verses that explicitly express that God creates both good AND evil... that of course is explained away (and not plausibly, at that).  But, I digress.....
> 
> My career involves counseling of a sexual nature, and I work with homosexual men, crossdressers, transexuals, transgenders, etc. on a daily basis.  I can tell you that none of them CHOOSE to be the way they are... in fact, many of them are in deep depression from trying to DENY what their inner urges tell them, and from trying to live as society deems 'correct'.  Many of them have married and started families in order to try and conform to what society says is the way they should be, but inside they know they are living a lie, they keep these innermost feelings in secret.  They have tried counseling, they have tried religion, they have even tried medication, but none of these things changes the way they are 'wired' inside.  There are many cases where living the lie has resulted in some of these individuals taking their own lives to escape the inner torment that they faced in a constant level.
> 
> ...





There have been some good posts today. Must be a full moon


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## Ulysses (Feb 19, 2008)

Branchminnow said:


> Went back and deleted most of my posts. Reason was pretty clear personal, unwarranted attacks on my beliefs and intelligence,and honesty (almost fell right in with it too) I donot have to nor will I make anyone accept the way I believe. The facts are all in the scripture all I did was point that out.



True words; only the Spirit can lead people to truth.

Sometimes I wonder if any thread on this forum is worth reading anymore after it goes beyond about 2 pages....


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## Lead Poison (Feb 19, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I can tell you that none of them CHOOSE to be the way they are... in fact, many of them are in deep depression from trying to DENY what their inner urges tell them, and from trying to live as society deems 'correct'.
> 
> Not only that, but I would estimate that 75% of my clients do NOT do any of this for sexual pleasure. I add this tidbit in here for the closed-minded bigots like many on here who lump crossdressers, homosexuals, transgenders and the like all into the same 'sinful abomination' group.



Just more evidence and reason why Satan is called the great deceiver.


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## Dixie Dawg (Feb 19, 2008)

Ulysses said:


> True words; only the Spirit can lead people to truth.
> 
> Sometimes I wonder if any thread on this forum is worth reading anymore after it goes beyond about 2 pages....



Yet somehow, here you are on page 4...


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## Ulysses (Feb 19, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Yet somehow, here you are on page 4...



I said it wasn't worth *reading*, not that it's not worth posting in.


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## Dixie Dawg (Feb 19, 2008)

Lead Poison said:


> Just more evidence and reason why Satan is called the great deceiver.





Here's the thing.... the biblical argument is that homosexuality is an 'abomination' to God... but somehow incest is ok?  Or wait... I know what you're going to say already... it's ok as long as it is completely necessary...   Or better yet, that was the "Old Testament" and doesn't apply anymore today... even though the bible says the "Old Testament" is eternal and never-ending.

The bible says that it is a sin for a man to wear a woman's clothing and vice-versa.  But all of the men back in the day wore skirts and robes and dresses... in fact, in some countries they still do!  So apparently as society changed, the 'rules' got left behind.  In fact, for that matter, since the men in biblical times wore dresses and robes, shouldn't you men be wearing them now?   After all, you wouldn't want to interfere with biblical dress code now, would you?   

Anything that doesn't fit in to the Christian box is considered sinful and authored by 'satan'.  I gotta tell ya, you're not helping your argument out any, especially for young, impressionable minds.  That's why there are so many 'devil worshipers' today... they are taught about all these things that 'satan' does or somehow makes people do, and it sure makes him sound more powerful than your God is.   Seems to me that giving satan credit for all this is somewhat shooting yourself in the foot, don't you thinK?

But then again, I suppose you have no choice.... either blame it on satan or admit the bible could be wrong...


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## Dixie Dawg (Feb 19, 2008)

Ulysses said:


> I said it wasn't worth *reading*, not that it's not worth posting in.


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## dawg2 (Feb 19, 2008)

Ulysses said:


> Sometimes I wonder if any thread on this forum is worth reading anymore after it goes beyond about 2 pages....





Ulysses said:


> I said it wasn't worth *reading*, not that it's not worth posting in.



But ya gotta *read* it to *post* in it.


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## Ulysses (Feb 19, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> But ya gotta *read* it to *post* in it.



Aw man, I knew something didn't make sense there...next thing you know, SBG will be in here questioning my intellectual credibility.


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## GAGE (Feb 19, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Oh what a tangled web it is when science interferes with faith, isn't it?  Not to mention when the bible negates itself... this is where you have so many problems with 'interpretation' and understanding. Forget about the verses that explicitly express that God creates both good AND evil... that of course is explained away (and not plausibly, at that).  But, I digress.....
> 
> My career involves counseling of a sexual nature, and I work with homosexual men, crossdressers, transexuals, transgenders, etc. on a daily basis.  I can tell you that none of them CHOOSE to be the way they are... in fact, many of them are in deep depression from trying to DENY what their inner urges tell them, and from trying to live as society deems 'correct'.  Many of them have married and started families in order to try and conform to what society says is the way they should be, but inside they know they are living a lie, they keep these innermost feelings in secret.  They have tried counseling, they have tried religion, they have even tried medication, but none of these things changes the way they are 'wired' inside.  There are many cases where living the lie has resulted in some of these individuals taking their own lives to escape the inner torment that they faced in a constant level.
> 
> ...



Best post of the day!


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## dawg2 (Feb 19, 2008)

Ulysses said:


> Aw man, I knew something didn't make sense there...next thing you know, SBG will be in here questioning my intellectual credibility.



He has been laying(sorry that would be a bird) "lying" low lately...


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## Branchminnow (Feb 20, 2008)

Ulysses said:


> True words; only the Spirit can lead people to truth.
> 
> Sometimes I wonder if any thread on this forum is worth reading anymore after it goes beyond about 2 pages....



Its getting worse and worse, when you have to make the same point on each page for the children who do not take the time to read the whole thread........


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