# The Bible



## 1gr8bldr (Oct 28, 2010)

I was thinking of what we could discuss tonight. I do enjoy a good discussion. I always learn something. How about the bible. It's kind of interesting by way of being a collection of writings. While I do see that man has affected the outcome of beliefs by interjecting his assumptions into the translations, I still think that for the most part, we are close to having a "context correct" book. That's just my opinion and we know how many of those are out there. Back to my original intent. What's your opinion, whether you believe it or not, of whether a collection of writings over a long period of time would be more likely to be accurate or not?


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 28, 2010)

After reading this I realize that it would be hard to answer unless you believed it. Lets just make this a general "Bible" discussion. Anything anybody wants to comment on either way concerning the bible.


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## RThomas (Oct 28, 2010)

> "context correct"



What do you mean by that?  There are no original manuscripts.  Do you know how the bible came to be in its present forms?  Do you know its history from oral tradition, multiple copies and recopies, the beliefs and context of the various writers, cannonization, recent discoveries, ect, ect?  
Very very interesting stuff.  However, I don't have time to discuss it tonight as it's bedtime here.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 28, 2010)

RThomas said:


> What do you mean by that?  There are no original manuscripts.  Do you know how the bible came to be in its present forms?  Do you know its history from oral tradition, multiple copies and recopies, the beliefs and context of the various writers, cannonization, recent discoveries, ect, ect?
> Very very interesting stuff.  However, I don't have time to discuss it tonight as it's bedtime here.


 I know bits and pieces. I would very much like to know completly but then how would I know my source of learning is correct. I say context correct because even though it has been corrupted to a degree by biased translators who have probably unintentionally added their assumptions, I was still able to see the context. For example, Matt 28:19, it never made sense, why one would say all authority has been given to me and then say therfore go baptise in other names. Also we are baptized into Jesus death, the Holy Spirit never died nor God. So I assumed something was wrong here since 8 or more places said to baptize into Jesus name. Here recently, it has become known that this is not in the Hebrew copy. You can google Matt 28:19. My point is that "context" threw a red flag on this one. The early cathlic church liked it better when there own scribes could spoon feed whatever they wanted the people to believe.


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## vowell462 (Jan 11, 2011)

The bible to me is nothing more than jewish history. Especially the old testament. Nothing written makes me "believe".  My honest opinion is that people believe because they were raised to believe. They have been taught to believe what the guy behind the pulpit in the white buckle shoes and the opal ring tells them. It makes people feel good and secure about themselves. To me, the bible is one of the greatest history books ever compiled. But that's it.


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## jmharris23 (Jan 12, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> They have been taught to believe what the guy behind the pulpit in the white buckle shoes and the opal ring tells them.



I don't get my panties bunched real easily and my feelings are not on my shoulder, but I will respond to this statement. 

I totally respect your stance and your worldview. I grant that faith does not always come easy. I can see many barriers to believing, many of them coming straight from the church. 

But I do want to say this. All across this country there are good, honest, hardworking men who stand in a pulpit every Sunday morning. Many of them highly educated and schooled in their profession. 80 hour work weeks are not uncommon for them. 

They live with their people. They attend their births and their deaths and most of what happens in between. 

They do most of this for a minimum salary and do it gladly. 

They for the most part can't even afford a nice suit if they wanted one. 

I just want to say, please don't lump these men in with what you see on TV or hear about in the news. 

I am not asking you to believe them, but you can at least respect them. I can promise you, they respect you.


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## vowell462 (Jan 12, 2011)

I can see where that sounds like an insult. So I apologize. I was just stating what I've seen first hand. Believe me, I've worn many a pair of britches out sitting on a church pew. And indeed, a lot are very educated and very brilliant. I guess I was throwing some humor in there that sounded more insulting than humorous. For that I apologize. As for them respecting me? I've had some first hand that don't. Therfore, in my mind, that statement can work both ways as well.


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## jmharris23 (Jan 12, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> I can see where that sounds like an insult. So I apologize. I was just stating what I've seen first hand. Believe me, I've worn many a pair of britches out sitting on a church pew. And indeed, a lot are very educated and very brilliant. I guess I was throwing some humor in there that sounded more insulting than humorous. For that I apologize. As for them respecting me? I've had some first hand that don't. Therfore, in my mind, that statement can work both ways as well.



Thanks for the response and yes, there are too many men who stand in a pulpit on Sunday morning who are there for the wrong reason and with the wrong attitude. These men do great harm to the cause of Christ and I believe will be dealt with when their time comes.


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## Achilles Return (Jan 12, 2011)

jmharris23 said:


> I don't get my panties bunched real easily and my feelings are not on my shoulder, but I will respond to this statement.
> 
> I totally respect your stance and your worldview. I grant that faith does not always come easy. I can see many barriers to believing, many of them coming straight from the church.
> 
> ...



I know that this may be hard to hear - but there _is_ a lot of truth to his statement. We generally do end up with the same religion as our parents and larger culture group. If you had been born in Saudi Arabia, you almost certainly would be Islamic right now. If you had been born in India, there is little doubt that you would be Hindu. Sure - it's possible that you might have converted to Christianity at some point, but it would be very unlikely. 

Perhaps that is what he was attesting to.


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## Achilles Return (Jan 12, 2011)

And this would probably be my favorite bible verse.



> King James Version, Second Kings 2:23-24
> 23: And he [Elisha] went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up that way, there came forth little children of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; Go up, thou bald head.
> 
> 24: And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD.  And there came forth two she bears out of the wood and tare forty and two children of them.


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## 1mamabearNC (Feb 19, 2011)

I am always surprised to see the pro-religion folks in the agnostics/atheists/apologetic section. Why is this I wonder? I suppose it comes naturally with the whole "spread the word" thing, but I just wanted to say, if you come to the nonbeliever section, you gotta expect people to say things about your beliefs that you are not gonna find palatable. I personally believe that the bible is just a great work of fiction, and like many great works of fiction it has a sprinkling of real stuff thrown in. A little history, with your fake parting of the sea, and so on. Or the sea was parted-by an earthquake or some such natural event. I would just as soon believe in aliens as to take the bible as gospel! And in fact I do believe in the aliens!


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## stringmusic (Feb 19, 2011)

1mamabearNC said:


> I am always surprised to see the pro-religion folks in the agnostics/atheists/apologetic section. Why is this I wonder? I suppose it comes naturally with the whole "spread the word" thing, but I just wanted to say, if you come to the nonbeliever section, you gotta expect people to say things about your beliefs that you are not gonna find palatable. I personally believe that the bible is just a great work of fiction, and like many great works of fiction it has a sprinkling of real stuff thrown in. A little history, with your fake parting of the sea, and so on. Or the sea was parted-by an earthquake or some such natural event. I would just as soon believe in aliens as to take the bible as gospel! And in fact I do believe in the aliens!


Do you know what this word means?


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## HawgJawl (Feb 20, 2011)

This forum would be extremely boring if only athiests were allowed in here.  There wouldn't be a lot to talk about.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 20, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> This forum would be extremely boring if only athiests were allowed in here.  There wouldn't be a lot to talk about.



Yeah, it would be a rediculous as an atheist coming to a spiritual forum in the first place.


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## 1mamabearNC (Feb 20, 2011)

No more ridiculous than someone who doesn't hunt very much coming to a forum dedicated to hunting! (-; And, yes, I saw the definition of "apologetic" on another thread. I'm just saying that if you come to this section do not be offended if someone else says something about your religion that you find distasteful-some seem to be coming here with both barrels loaded, and a hair trigger! However, I don't think it wold be boring with only the non-religious folks, we are all still people and full of our own opinions!  (-:


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## SneekEE (Feb 20, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> The bible to me is nothing more than jewish history. Especially the old testament. Nothing written makes me "believe".  My honest opinion is that people believe because they were raised to believe. They have been taught to believe what the guy behind the pulpit in the white buckle shoes and the opal ring tells them. It makes people feel good and secure about themselves. To me, the bible is one of the greatest history books ever compiled. But that's it.



I was not raised to believe the bible was true, was not a "church goer" or "bible reader" untill the age of 33. So not all people would fit your opinion, but many would. 

As far as the bible making me feel good... well it says that I am.....
“deceitful and desperately wicked” (Jeremiah 17:9) and that the thoughts of my heart are “continually evil” (Genesis 6:5) and that i am  born dead in transgression and sin (Psalm 51:5) that i am not a good person (Mat.19:17) that I am ignorant because of the blindness of my heart (Ephesians 4:18) that out of my heart comes come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride,  and foolishness (Mark 7:21-23) the bible teaches i am a lier and my inermost self is destruction (ps 5:9) That God gave me up  to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done(Romans 1:28-31) that my ways are an abomination to the Lord (Proverbs 15:9) that i  am foolish, disobedient, led astray, a slave to various passions and pleasures, passing my days in malice and envy, hated by others and hatefull myself ( Titus 3:3) that I am a unclean thing and my most rightous acts are as filthy rags(Isaiah 64:6) 

..... and that aint the half of it. Needless to say these are not the kind of things one would like to hear, much less make them feel good, at least not about themselves. It does make me feel good that  God  would still save a undeserving wretch like me, not because of my goodness, but because of His.


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## SneekEE (Feb 20, 2011)

1mamabearNC said:


> I am always surprised to see the pro-religion folks in the agnostics/atheists/apologetic section. Why is this I wonder? I suppose it comes naturally with the whole "spread the word" thing, but I just wanted to say, if you come to the nonbeliever section, you gotta expect people to say things about your beliefs that you are not gonna find palatable. I personally believe that the bible is just a great work of fiction, and like many great works of fiction it has a sprinkling of real stuff thrown in. A little history, with your fake parting of the sea, and so on. Or the sea was parted-by an earthquake or some such natural event. I would just as soon believe in aliens as to take the bible as gospel! And in fact I do believe in the aliens!


As a christian I think I fit in very well in the "agnostics/atheists/apologetic section" cause I don't believe in aliens myself.It seems to me most people who dont believe in my God, will eventualy after arguing there is no God, try to introduce me to the one they believe in, often times the aliens. I love it!


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## ted_BSR (Feb 20, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> The bible to me is nothing more than jewish history. Especially the old testament. Nothing written makes me "believe".  My honest opinion is that people believe because they were raised to believe. They have been taught to believe what the guy behind the pulpit in the white buckle shoes and the opal ring tells them. It makes people feel good and secure about themselves. To me, the bible is one of the greatest history books ever compiled. But that's it.



If it is, you better pay attention!


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## ted_BSR (Feb 20, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Do you know what this word means?



Beat me to it.


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## atlashunter (Feb 21, 2011)

SneekEE said:


> As a christian I think I fit in very well in the "agnostics/atheists/apologetic section" cause I don't believe in aliens myself.It seems to me most people who dont believe in my God, will eventualy after arguing there is no God, try to introduce me to the one they believe in, often times the aliens. I love it!



I must have missed the atheist alien worshipers thread on here.


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## atlashunter (Feb 21, 2011)

SneekEE said:


> ..... and that aint the half of it. Needless to say these are not the kind of things one would like to hear, much less make them feel good, at least not about themselves. It does make me feel good that  God  would still save a undeserving wretch like me, not because of my goodness, but because of His.



Precisely the point isn't it? To create a need in your mind for the god being sold to you. It reminds me of North Korea.


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## ambush80 (Feb 21, 2011)

SneekEE said:


> I was not raised to believe the bible was true, was not a "church goer" or "bible reader" untill the age of 33. So not all people would fit your opinion, but many would.
> 
> As far as the bible making me feel good... well it says that I am.....
> “deceitful and desperately wicked” (Jeremiah 17:9) and that the thoughts of my heart are “continually evil” (Genesis 6:5) and that i am  born dead in transgression and sin (Psalm 51:5) that i am not a good person (Mat.19:17) that I am ignorant because of the blindness of my heart (Ephesians 4:18) that out of my heart comes come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride,  and foolishness (Mark 7:21-23) the bible teaches i am a lier and my inermost self is destruction (ps 5:9) That God gave me up  to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done(Romans 1:28-31) that my ways are an abomination to the Lord (Proverbs 15:9) that i  am foolish, disobedient, led astray, a slave to various passions and pleasures, passing my days in malice and envy, hated by others and hatefull myself ( Titus 3:3) that I am a unclean thing and my most rightous acts are as filthy rags(Isaiah 64:6)
> ...



Your self loathing actually makes me a little sad


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## 1mamabearNC (Mar 16, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> Beat me to it.



See my previous reply...


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## 1mamabearNC (Mar 16, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> I must have missed the atheist alien worshipers thread on here.



Me, too! I never said I worshiped aliens, I only said I believe in them-that they exist. I think it would be very arrogant of us to believe that we were the only people in the universe. I am more of a "nature" worshiper, perhaps there is a Goddess and a God??? Not sure, I don't think anyone is, they just cling to what they have been taught since childhood.


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## JFS (May 18, 2011)

I really still find it hard to believe people put any stock in it at all.  Just read this today about the second coming:

"Make no mistake about it. As Billy Graham affirmed to President Kennedy, Jesus is coming back some day. Over 1,800 verses in the Old Testament and 300 verses in the New Testament prophesy of the lord’s return."

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/...-movement-harms-christianity/comment-page-29/

It doesn't matter how many times something is referenced in a bogus source.   Once in a legitimate one would be much more persuasive.


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## stringmusic (May 18, 2011)

JFS said:


> I really still find it hard to believe people put any stock in it at all.  Just read this today about the second coming:
> 
> "Make no mistake about it. As Billy Graham affirmed to President Kennedy, Jesus is coming back some day. Over 1,800 verses in the Old Testament and 300 verses in the New Testament prophesy of the lord’s return."
> 
> ...



I think the percentage of people that believe May 21 is the day of Jesus or they have any other exact date in mind is probably around 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%
JMO


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## bullethead (May 18, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I think the percentage of people that believe May 21 is the day of Jesus or they have any other exact date in mind is probably around 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%
> JMO



I'd say the % is much higher as it has some following. As nutty as it sounds to you is about a nutty as some of the things the non-believers hear and question every day.


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## JFS (May 18, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%



Well, the point really is that's the chance "Jesus" ever shows up on Earth.  The date is just a side show.


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## Huntinfool (May 19, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> The bible to me is nothing more than jewish history. Especially the old testament.



It cannot be Jewish history if it's not true.  If you want to refer to it as "Jewish Folklore", I'll give you a pass.  But it cannot be both historical and false.


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## bullethead (May 19, 2011)

Embellished Jewish Folklore with a hint of History. Real people, real places filled with events that the likes of which have never been seen since.


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## Huntinfool (May 19, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Embellished Jewish Folklore with a hint of History. Real people, real places filled with events that the likes of which have never been seen since.



Let's let him answer for himself.  That is certainly not what he posted.  I'm just clarifying.


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## JFS (May 19, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> But it cannot be both historical and false.



Was Muhammed a historical figure?  Are Islam's teachings all true then?


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## bullethead (May 19, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Let's let him answer for himself.  That is certainly not what he posted.  I'm just clarifying.



Despite of or in addition to what he said, Those have been my feelings and thoughts for many years.


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## Huntinfool (May 19, 2011)

JFS said:


> Was Muhammed a historical figure?  Are Islam's teachings all true then?



I didn't make the statement that is was historical and false.  

I believe it to be historical and true.

Qu'ran?  Fairytale.  It is not a historical document from my perspective.


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## Huntinfool (May 19, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Despite of or in addition to what he said, Those have been my feelings and thoughts for many years.



Gathered that...and I gather that he feels the same.  Just making sure we understand each other in terms of what it is and is not.


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## TheBishop (May 19, 2011)

I always thought of the bible as a control mechanism.  A philosophical folktale with a twinge of historical value to make it somewhat credible for the unquestioning.  So those who weild it may garner control.  At least and the historical picture points to it that way, thats how it gained so much popularity.  I mean were would christiainity be without the roman catholic church?  One of the reasons I despise my childhood faith as much as I do is the historical contexts in which it came to power, and the bible was its main tool of the trade.  Now I do understand there are those who truely believe its goodness and promote it as such, which is much more honorable than their predecessors used it for.


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## Michael F. Gray (May 19, 2011)

The Holy Bible in it's original manuscript(s) is Holy, inerrant, and inspired by the Holy Spirit. The King James Version is the best translation in our English language. Admitedly English is a most difficult language to translate into, and the devoted men who proffered this work were dilligent, and their Bible has resulted in salvation of multitudes of lost English speaking peoples. We need to draw a distiction about what is Holy, inerrant, and inspired. Those manuscripts were mostly Greek and Hebrew, afterward translated into Latin. Those who have dilligently studied our English translation are aware of a very few errors in numeration. That is to say the method of counting in Bible days was much differant than what we use today. The good news is every questionable number mentioned has a parrellel passage that makes it easy to square the error. Those trained in math in antiquity can quickly sort through it, and demonstrate how and why these "apparent errors" occured. The great news is, these number discrepencies have nothing to do with Bible Doctrine, or Salvation. For one to be saved, he must first believe God is. We call it FAITH.  I would reccomend reading Dr. Harold Wilmington's "Complete guide to Bible Knowledge"by Tyndall House Publishers if you seriously desire knowledge on the subject.


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## JFS (May 19, 2011)

Michael F. Gray said:


> The Holy Bible in it's original manuscript(s) is Holy, inerrant, and inspired by the Holy Spirit.



You lost me at the first sentence.  I'd be more impressed if one day we woke up and, jeez, if god can't bother to show up and hand over the thing himself, it was perfectly engraved on Stone Mountain or something.


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## Huntinfool (May 19, 2011)

Kind of like he did for Moses???


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## stringmusic (May 19, 2011)

JFS said:


> You lost me at the first sentence.  I'd be more impressed if one day we woke up and, jeez, if god can't bother to show up and hand over the thing himself, it was perfectly engraved on Stone Mountain or something.



If it was perfectly engraved on stone mountain you would call foul, and probably say a guy with a jackhammer did that last night.


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## TheBishop (May 19, 2011)

JFS said:


> You lost me at the first sentence.  I'd be more impressed if one day we woke up and, jeez, if god can't bother to show up and hand over the thing himself, it was perfectly engraved on Stone Mountain or something.



I'd take a good infomercial.


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## JFS (May 19, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Kind of like he did for Moses???



Only if you get it on video.


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## bullethead (May 19, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Kind of like he did for Moses???



Did He? Where outside of the bible did that occur?


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## bullethead (May 19, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> If it was perfectly engraved on stone mountain you would call foul, and probably say a guy with a jackhammer did that last night.



If, IF it was written in a Language that was universally understood. If it was found in multiple parts across the entire planet by various races and cultures. And IF man did not write a single letter, it would be more believable. Instead it is a collection of writings CHOSEN by man to be included or excluded as MAN saw fit. It all occurred in a tiny spot on the globe to people that NEEDED a super hero. It contains hundreds if not thousands of direct interaction with "God" over thousands of years, all to these specific people and since it's last punctuation mark on it's last page NOTHING has happened to those same people since, no contact has happened to another culture or race since.  Now, as society has advanced, the book and it contents hold less and less clout the longer time goes on.


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## stringmusic (May 19, 2011)

bullethead said:


> If, IF it was written in a Language that was universally understood. If it was found in multiple parts across the entire planet by various races and cultures. And IF man did not write a single letter, it would be more believable. Instead it is a collection of writings CHOSEN by man to be included or excluded as MAN saw fit. It all occurred in a tiny spot on the globe to people that NEEDED a super hero. It contains hundreds if not thousands of direct interaction with "God" over thousands of years, all to these specific people and since it's last punctuation mark on it's last page NOTHING has happened to those same people since, no contact has happened to another culture or race since.  Now, as society has advanced,* the book and it contents hold less and less clout the longer time goes on.*


The Bible is the greatest selling book of all time and if on the NY Times best seller list, it would be on top everyweek now and since the NY Times started the list. I dont think it's loosing much clout.


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## bullethead (May 19, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> The Bible is the greatest selling book of all time and if on the NY Times best seller list, it would be on top everyweek now and since the NY Times started the list. I dont think it's loosing much clout.



I own three of them. What is your point? Number of Sales make the contents true?


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## bullethead (May 19, 2011)

Actually I own 6 bibles, 3 of which I bought. Annnnnnnnnnnd?


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## stringmusic (May 19, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Actually I own 6 bibles, 3 of which I bought. Annnnnnnnnnnd?



I'm sorry, I took clout in that sentence as not many people bought the Bible anymore, I see what you mean now.


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## atlashunter (May 19, 2011)

Michael F. Gray said:


> The Holy Bible in it's original manuscript(s) is Holy, inerrant, and inspired by the Holy Spirit.



Wishful thinking _at best._


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## Huntinfool (May 20, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Did He? Where outside of the bible did that occur?



On the mountain where God gave him those stones.  The premise of your argument is that the Bible, itself, is not a historical document and therefore cannot be relied upon for accurate accounts.

We disagree.


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## atlashunter (May 20, 2011)

Why is it that even the Christians on this forum can't seem to agree on the historicity of the bible?


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## bullethead (May 20, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> On the mountain where God gave him those stones.  The premise of your argument is that the Bible, itself, is not a historical document and therefore cannot be relied upon for accurate accounts.
> 
> We disagree.



We certainly do disagree.

If someone was leading a band of people through the wilderness for 40YEARS and needed to keep them inline and establish law and order they could easily carve some "laws" in a few stone tablets especially if they had 40days to do it. It is very easy to say god commanded him and gave him those stones when no one else was around to see it.
It would be very easy to appear before all those misbehaving people and wise them up quick, all the while letting them hear and see the commandments first hand.( I know the story, god spoke but no one could understand him so Moses went up into the mountains to get it all straight. Oddly though, I would think god could have put it in a language and tone that everyone could understand. Otherwise it seems like mountain wind to me, but....) Moses was the leader and the leader had to establish order. If your people are not listening to you then threaten them with a higher power. It worked then and since where religion is concerned.

40 is really used a lot in the bible.


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## Huntinfool (May 20, 2011)

It definitely is.  As is 7, 70 and other numbers.

So, let me get this straight....you're acknowledging that Moses existed and the he did indeed go up on a mountain and come down with the Ten Commandments.

It's just that your opinion is he went up there and carved them himself so that he could control a nation through use of a threat from a made up God?

10-4 man.  You're right.  When I say it out loud that makes a WHOLE lot more sense than my explanation.


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## bullethead (May 20, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> It definitely is.  As is 7, 70 and other numbers.
> 
> So, let me get this straight....you're acknowledging that Moses existed and the he did indeed go up on a mountain and come down with the Ten Commandments.
> 
> ...



Nope I do not acknowledge it, but in most cases the Bible and it's stories are  the ONLY things believers can talk about or relate to in conversation. It is like arguing who is stronger, Mighty Mouse or Superman. Compelling arguments can be made for either side, but in the end it is a lot of time wasted on fiction.


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## bullethead (May 20, 2011)

> It's just that your opinion is he went up there and carved them himself so that he could control a nation through use of a threat from a made up God?
> 
> 10-4 man. You're right. When I say it out loud that makes a WHOLE lot more sense than my explanation.



I have to play along because no where in Egyptian history is the exodus mentioned. No where is the death of their first born children mentioned. No where is their army being swallowed by the sea while the Israelites crossed it bone dry mentioned, so if you want to talk fiction, I have to go along with it in order to keep you in the game.

I see how hard it could be to understand that a man would do those things to rule people. NOTHING like that goes on in the world for sure......

It is MUCH easier to believe that Moses had an in with an invisible man that only HE could understand.


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## TripleXBullies (May 20, 2011)

Huntingfool I find it hard to believe you are unable to acknowledge that this meeting with god is hard to believe. I understand you believe with all you are, but it's not like that sort of thing happens every day, or in the last few thousand years.


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## Huntinfool (May 20, 2011)

I acknowledge that it's hard for you to believe.

God has never called me to a mountain top and handed me two pieces of stone.  But I have had unmistakable encounters with him. 

 I'm sure you think it is more likely that the roast beef I ate that night was undercooked and it interacted with the green beans to my mind's detriment.  Not sure what I can do to convince you otherwise.

It would certainly be hard to believe if you don't believe a God exists.  It certainly would be.  However, if you do believe he exists, why would it be so difficult for him to show up on a mountain and hand over tablets?

If that's the toughest thing I have to accept to follow him, I'm in good shape.  How 'bout a virgin birth and a death and resurrection?  How 'bout speaking something into existence?


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## JFS (May 20, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> why would it be so difficult for him to show up on a mountain and hand over tablets?



I don't know but you'd think he would at least be consistent.  

Moses had to create slabs:


> Exodus 34
> 
> 1And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first...
> 
> 4And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.




And write the commandments himself.


> 27And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.
> 
> 28And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.


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## Huntinfool (May 20, 2011)

Just felt like you needed to post that twice?


This theme of demanding consistency keeps coming up with you guys.  It's very interesting.


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## atlashunter (May 20, 2011)

Is consistency an unreasonable expectation? Doesn't the bible describe God as the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow?


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## Huntinfool (May 20, 2011)

Nope.  

Would you believe if he were consistent in your mind?


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## TheBishop (May 20, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Just felt like you needed to post that twice?
> 
> 
> This theme of demanding consistency keeps coming up with you guys.  It's very interesting.



God's word is infallible right? Should be 100% consistent, no errors or contradictions don't you think?


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## JFS (May 20, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> This theme of demanding consistency keeps coming up with you guys.  It's very interesting.



I think the inconsistency is interesting.  But the point is also the the 10 Commandments are the product of a guy making his own tablets, writing the rules himself, and then telling every one god told him what to write.  OK, whatever.


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## Huntinfool (May 20, 2011)

Did you actually read what you wrote when you were writing it?

Please note the several instances "and the Lord said to Moses".

You have absolutely no more reason to believe Moses made it us than you do that "the Lord said to Moses".


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## JFS (May 20, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Did you actually read what you wrote when you were writing it?
> 
> Please note the several instances "and the Lord said to Moses".
> 
> You have absolutely no more reason to believe Moses made it us than you do that "the Lord said to Moses".



Really?  Of course, no one was there to hear that but Moses.

God told me to tell you "give JFS all of your money."

You have absolutely no more reason to believe I said that than God did.


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## Huntinfool (May 20, 2011)

> Of course, no one was there to hear that but Moses.



...and God.




> God told me to tell you "give JFS all of your money."
> 
> You have absolutely no more reason to believe I said that than God did.



Go up on a mountain for 40 days with no food or water.  Survive that and then come down and tell me that God told you to say that.....Then just tell me where to send the money.


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## bullethead (May 20, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> ...and God.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



After 40 days of surviving on a mountain I bet he, you, and I would talk to God, burning bushes, squirrels with british accents, tap dancing butterflies, the chorus line of bees and anything else our hallucinating minds could conjure up. I am sure good ol Moses heard voices.


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## JFS (May 20, 2011)

bullethead said:


> After 40 days of surviving on a mountain I bet he, you, and I would talk to God, burning bushes, squirrels with british accents, tap dancing butterflies, the chorus line of bees and anything else our hallucinating minds could conjure up. I am sure good ol Moses heard voices.



I think he was snacking on mushrooms. 

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080304120710.ad7gm7i6&show_article=1



> Moses was high on drugs: Israeli researcher
> 
> _High on Mount Sinai, Moses was on psychedelic drugs when he heard God deliver the Ten Commandments, an Israeli researcher claimed in a study published this week.
> Such mind-altering substances formed an integral part of the religious rites of Israelites in biblical times, Benny Shanon, a professor of cognitive psychology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem wrote in the Time and Mind journal of philosophy.
> ...


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## Huntinfool (May 20, 2011)

That's probably what it was.  


Do you think it's funny that you guys will leave open EVERY possiblity....except for the one in the Bible?


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## atlashunter (May 20, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Nope.
> 
> Would you believe if he were consistent in your mind?



Nope the bible doesn't describe God that way or nope we shouldn't expect consistency?


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## stringmusic (May 20, 2011)

JFS said:


> I think he was snacking on mushrooms.
> 
> http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080304120710.ad7gm7i6&show_article=1



"Moses was probably also on drugs when he saw the "burning bush," suggested Shanon, who said he himself has dabbled with such substances."

 Maybe Shanon was dabbling when he did his "research"

"ssssssssssssssswwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww........ haay maaan' I think Moses.....aha aha.... was on this stuff when he saw that bush maan'"


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## bullethead (May 20, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> That's probably what it was.
> 
> 
> Do you think it's funny that you guys will leave open EVERY possiblity....except for the one in the Bible?



Occam's Razor


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## bullethead (May 21, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Did you actually read what you wrote when you were writing it?
> 
> Please note the several instances "and the Lord said to Moses".
> 
> You have absolutely no more reason to believe Moses made it us than you do that "the Lord said to Moses".





> Quote:
> Of course, no one was there to hear that but Moses.
> ...and God.



And WHO wrote it down for us to read? Moses or God? Sounds like 3rd person writing and yet only two were supposedly there.


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