# Jews must have something in the water.



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 27, 2017)

They comprise 0.2 % of the worlds population but 22.5% of Nobel Prize laureates.  Coincidence?  I think not. Abrahamic Covenant????


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## NE GA Pappy (Oct 27, 2017)

yeap,  why not.  I know that most see this as a blessing of a savior for the world, but it most certainly can be physical blessings also.  I would also think the skewing of the percentages might have something to do with the Torah study and the importance that jews put on education and understanding natural processes and laws.


Genesis 22:18 - Bible Gateway
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Genesis 22:18
Every nation on the earth will be blessed through your descendants. I will do this because you obeyed me.” ESV


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## Miguel Cervantes (Oct 27, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> They comprise 0.2 % of the worlds population but 22.5% of Nobel Prize laureates.  Coincidence?  I think not. Abrahamic Covenant????



Link? Reference? Where are you getting your information?
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Religion_of_Nobel_Prize_winners.png





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_Nobel_laureates


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## NE GA Pappy (Oct 27, 2017)

i don't know where he got his info, but for your entertainment pleasure...lol

http://www.jinfo.org/Nobel_Prizes.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_Nobel_laureates

https://www.algemeiner.com/2013/10/...by-high-number-of-jewish-nobel-prize-winners/


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## SemperFiDawg (Oct 27, 2017)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Link? Reference? Where are you getting your information?
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Religion_of_Nobel_Prize_winners.png
> 
> 
> ...



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_Nobel_laureates

Your data is a bit dated......almost 2 decades.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Oct 27, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_Nobel_laureates
> 
> Your data is a bit dated......almost 2 decades.



Yet only 1.4% off from the numbers you stated in your OP.

I guess the Jews are not that privileged if they haven't gained more ground than that in nearly 20 years.


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## SemperFiDawg (Oct 27, 2017)

Run that bye me one more agin.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Oct 27, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Run that bye me one more agin.



Really? It's simple math, my 20 year old chart shows the Jews owning 21.1% of the NL titles, yours states 22.5%, that is a 1.4% gain in 20 years. 

Was it really that difficult to understand?

Here's the question you should be asking. What religious sect or sects, in context of the discussion lost a 1.4% share of the NL titles?


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## SemperFiDawg (Oct 27, 2017)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Really? It's simple math, my 20 year old chart shows the Jews owning 21.1% of the NL titles, yours states 22.5%, that is a 1.4% gain in 20 years.
> 
> Was it really that difficult to understand?
> 
> Here's the question you should be asking. What religious sect or sects, in context of the discussion lost a 1.4% share of the NL titles?



Uhhhhh.  Apparently.


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## NE GA Pappy (Oct 27, 2017)

Asked why he thought it is that Jews have won so many Nobel Prizes, Dawkins was forthright with his uncertainty.“I haven’t thought it through. I don’t know. But I don’t think it is a minor thing; it is colossal. I think more than 20 percent of Nobel Prizes have been won by Jews.”

According to the Jewish Virtual Library, since the Nobel was first awarded in 1901 approximately 193 of the 855 honorees have been Jewish (22%). Jews make up less than 0.2% of the global population.


go figure why the mooslims have won less than 1% of the Nobel prizes?????  they started from the same bloodline, didn't they?


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## Miguel Cervantes (Oct 27, 2017)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Asked why he thought it is that Jews have won so many Nobel Prizes, Dawkins was forthright with his uncertainty.“I haven’t thought it through. I don’t know. But I don’t think it is a minor thing; it is colossal. I think more than 20 percent of Nobel Prizes have been won by Jews.”
> 
> According to the Jewish Virtual Library, since the Nobel was first awarded in 1901 approximately 193 of the 855 honorees have been Jewish (22%). Jews make up less than 0.2% of the global population.
> 
> ...



I believe there is a dichotomy in statistics here. Dawkins, outside of being an idiot, is using current day stats for the NL yet his PoP for the Jewish lineage is five years old. I get the gist of what he is saying, but from my vantage point it doesn't imbue me with any sense of mystery given the percentages stated in his query. 

His statement regarding Muslims and Jews coming from the same bloodline is just flat ignorant. In terms of most lineage, even Christians God is the God of Abraham and most likely their lineage as well.


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## NE GA Pappy (Oct 27, 2017)

the bloodline wasn't Dawkins comment, it was mine.  I was making the point that jews are decended from Abraham through Issac, and mooslims are decended from Abraham through Ishmael.

They both are direct blood decendants from Abraham.

While Christains do claim the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, they do not share the earthly bloodline of Abraham as a father.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Oct 27, 2017)

NE GA Pappy said:


> the bloodline wasn't Dawkins comment, it was mine.  I was making the point that jews are decended from Abraham through Issac, and mooslims are decended from Abraham through Ishmael.
> 
> They both are direct blood decendants from Abraham.
> 
> While Christains do claim the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, they do not share the earthly bloodline of Abraham as a father.



As we know it thus far.  Though I am convinced most of the American Christians as well as Jews that I have met are direct decedents of the Ishmael side of the table.


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## NE GA Pappy (Oct 27, 2017)

human lineage didn't start with Abraham, it started with Adam.  there were hundreds of thousands of men who were fathers when Abraham fathered Issac.  

So, no, all the gentiles did not decend from Abraham through Ishmael.  Now it could be that all gentiles decended through Noah, but that was several generations before Abram and his conversion to the One God.


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## centerpin fan (Oct 27, 2017)

The inevitable end to most threads in the Spiritual Forum:


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 27, 2017)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Yet only 1.4% off from the numbers you stated in your OP.
> 
> I guess the Jews are not that privileged if they haven't gained more ground than that in nearly 20 years.



Would you say if they were more privileged, they would all be Christians by now?


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## Miguel Cervantes (Oct 27, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Would you say if they were more privileged, they would all be Christians by now?



Or there would be more of them by now?


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## swampstalker24 (Oct 27, 2017)

With almost half of all "Jews" identifying as "secular" I don't see how this is a religious debate.   There is a distinction between being of Jewish ethnicity and practicing Judaism.  I'd say among those who've one the Nobel the majority are secular.  Probably has more to do with how they value education and pursuit of knowledge.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Oct 27, 2017)

swampstalker24 said:


> With almost half of all "Jews" identifying as "secular" I don't see how this is a religious debate.   There is a distinction between being of Jewish ethnicity and practicing Judaism.  I'd say among those who've one the Nobel the majority are secular.  Probably has more to do with how they value education and pursuit of knowledge.


Are you disputing Wiki?


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## NE GA Pappy (Oct 27, 2017)

swampstalker24 said:


> With almost half of all "Jews" identifying as "secular" I don't see how this is a religious debate.   There is a distinction between being of Jewish ethnicity and practicing Judaism.  I'd say among those who've one the Nobel the majority are secular.  Probably has more to do with how they value education and pursuit of knowledge.



most probably are secular, seeing as in Israel, the majority of the population is secular also.  It stands to reason that worldwide the majority is secular.  However, Jews have always valued education and exploring all the sides of an argument. They value critical thinking, not just rote memorization.  I would speculate that it has much more to do with their principled way of going about life rather than the religion itself.

However, none of that changes what was prophesied over Abrahams offspring over 4000 years ago.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Oct 27, 2017)

Keep in mind that Judaism, outside of Messianic, does not believe that the Messiah has come yet. So this element must also be considered non-secular in the data being discussed as well.


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## NE GA Pappy (Oct 27, 2017)

when I was using the word secular jew, I meant as a jew who practiced neither messianic Judaism, nor Hassidic jews who practice the older Torah religion.  Most jews in Israel are completely secular, and practice no religion at all, but are fully aware of the believes of both the other sects of jews, even respecting those views.  However, they are completely knowledgeable and capable of arguing any side of the belief system you would wish them to debate.


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## NE GA Pappy (Oct 27, 2017)

I was scheduled to be in Tiberias Israel tonight, but this surgery came up.  I hope to reschedule this trip really soon.  Israel is an amazing place. If you get a chance, go.


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## Spineyman (Oct 27, 2017)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I was scheduled to be in Tiberias Israel tonight, but this surgery came up.  I hope to reschedule this trip really soon.  Israel is an amazing place. If you get a chance, go.



How are you doing my friend? Funny this came up because we are planning to go in April.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Oct 27, 2017)

NE GA Pappy said:


> when I was using the word secular jew, I meant as a jew who practiced neither messianic Judaism, nor Hassidic jews who practice the older Torah religion.  Most jews in Israel are completely secular, and practice no religion at all, but are fully aware of the believes of both the other sects of jews, even respecting those views.  However, they are completely knowledgeable and capable of arguing any side of the belief system you would wish them to debate.





NE GA Pappy said:


> I was scheduled to be in Tiberias Israel tonight, but this surgery came up.  I hope to reschedule this trip really soon.  Israel is an amazing place. If you get a chance, go.



Given all of that, perhaps they are doing well in the NL category merely because they are well studied, as were the Pharisees, and being granted the award of an earthly title such as NL has no bearing on their bloodline or Biblical promises whatsoever.


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## SemperFiDawg (Oct 27, 2017)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> I believe there is a dichotomy in statistics here.



Yuh reckon?


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## NE GA Pappy (Oct 27, 2017)

Spineyman said:


> How are you doing my friend? Funny this came up because we are planning to go in April.



I am in a little pain.  I had to have an ileosomy put in to heal the part of the colon they had to remove. I am scheduled to go back and have that reversed next week.  Right now, just trying to get my eating and digestion to work correctly is the major issues.  I have to take a lot of gas tablets and eat very small, quite often meals to try and keep the food going the right way.  the pain from the gas build up was amazingly painful until yesterday around 3pm, and stuff started to move correctly, so it is much more bearable today.

Thanks for asking Brother.


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## NE GA Pappy (Oct 27, 2017)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Given all of that, perhaps they are doing well in the NL category merely because they are well studied, as were the Pharisees, and being granted the award of an earthly title such as NL has no bearing on their bloodline or Biblical promises whatsoever.



there are members of all societal sects that are well studied, but don't show up in the Nobel list.

If I were arguing that well studied, industrious people were the reason, I would expect many,many more asians to appear on the list, wouldn't you?


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## Spineyman (Oct 27, 2017)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I am in a little pain.  I had to have an ileosomy put in to heal the part of the colon they had to remove. I am scheduled to go back and have that reversed next week.  Right now, just trying to get my eating and digestion to work correctly is the major issues.  I have to take a lot of gas tablets and eat very small, quite often meals to try and keep the food going the right way.  the pain from the gas build up was amazingly painful until yesterday around 3pm, and stuff started to move correctly, so it is much more bearable today.
> 
> Thanks for asking Brother.



Thank the Lord His mercies are new every morning and His faithfulness extends to all generations! glad you are getting back to fully operational.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Oct 27, 2017)

NE GA Pappy said:


> there are members of all societal sects that are well studied, but don't show up in the Nobel list.
> 
> If I were arguing that well studied, industrious people were the reason, I would expect many,many more asians to appear on the list, wouldn't you?



Not sure. I am not familiar with the committee and selection process.


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## SemperFiDawg (Oct 27, 2017)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> His statement regarding Muslims and Jews coming from the same bloodline is just flat ignorant.





NE GA Pappy said:


> the bloodline wasn't Dawkins comment, it was mine.



Hey MC, tell me agin about how us “Ultra Right Wing Christian Conservatives” are worse than Radical Athiest in alienating people.

Brother you need to start over.  You have missed the point from the get go and you just keep burying yourself deeper with every post.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Oct 27, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Hey MC, tell me agin about how us “Ultra Right Wing Christian Conservatives” are worse than Radical Athiest in alienating people.
> 
> Brother you need to start over.  You have missed the point from the get go and you just keep burying yourself deeper with every post.


Catch up to the end and get back to me.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Oct 27, 2017)

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.553485



> The Real Reason Why Jews Win So Many Nobel Prizes
> read more: https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.553485


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## NE GA Pappy (Oct 27, 2017)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.553485



can't read the article.  pay per view site.


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## SemperFiDawg (Oct 27, 2017)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I am in a little pain.  I had to have an ileosomy put in to heal the part of the colon they had to remove. I am scheduled to go back and have that reversed next week.  Right now, just trying to get my eating and digestion to work correctly is the major issues.  I have to take a lot of gas tablets and eat very small, quite often meals to try and keep the food going the right way.  the pain from the gas build up was amazingly painful until yesterday around 3pm, and stuff started to move correctly, so it is much more bearable today.
> 
> Thanks for asking Brother.




Pappy I sure wish you the best.   I know full well the course in front of you.  It will get better now that the plumbing is functioning.  Will be praying for you.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Oct 27, 2017)

NE GA Pappy said:


> can't read the article.  pay per view site.


That's odd, it let me right in to read the entire thing. I should have copy and pasted it. 

The gist of his argument wasn't a Primo Gene or the fact that every household is overflowing with shelves full of books. Instead he submits, until recently Jews were less than mediocre in the field of science yet the opening of territories never before friendly to allowing Jews to come to allowed them to expand to other less developed countries and hone their skills for the betterment of mankind in those lesser areas of the globe. Given the opportunity to serve and excel they jumped at the opportunity. 

Religion wasn't part of the article at all.


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## NE GA Pappy (Oct 27, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Pappy I sure wish you the best.   I know full well the course in front of you.  It will get better now that the plumbing is functioning.  Will be praying for you.



thank you.  I have to have a barium study done one day next week, and then they hope to reverse this ostomy the next day.

I am ready.  I don't know how anyone lives with one of these things for years and years.


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## NE GA Pappy (Oct 27, 2017)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> That's odd, it let me right in to read the entire thing. I should have copy and pasted it.
> 
> The gist of his argument wasn't a Primo Gene or the fact that every household is overflowing with shelves full of books. Instead he submits, until recently Jews were less than mediocre in the field of science yet the opening of territories never before friendly to allowing Jews to come to allowed them to expand to other less developed countries and hone their skills for the betterment of mankind in those lesser areas of the globe. Given the opportunity to serve and excel they jumped at the opportunity.
> 
> Religion wasn't part of the article at all.



ok... but I didn't think from the OP that religion was the premise for the jews doing so much better than others. I thought the premise was that the jews faired better because of the promise to Abraham that his seed would be a blessing to the whole world.


But I could be wrong.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Oct 27, 2017)

It let me in again. Divine intervention?



> Camp Young Judaea, a Zionist sleepaway camp where I passed a bit of my youth, tweeted this just after this year's Nobel Prize winners were announced, and it got me thinking: Did you know... Of the 8 individuals who have won Nobel Prizes this year, 6 are Jewish, 2 are Israeli, and 1 is a Holocaust survivor!
> 
> I did know, of course, and so did everyone else.
> In the weeks following the announcement, I read hundreds of tweets and dozens of posts about Jews’ banner performance in Stockholm; I’ve seen it lead the TV news on all three Israeli stations that carry the news, gotten emails about it from enthusiastic relatives and overheard discussions about it in the faculty cafeteria.
> ...


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## Mako22 (Oct 28, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> They comprise 0.2 % of the worlds population but 22.5% of Nobel Prize laureates.  Coincidence?  I think not. Abrahamic Covenant????



And many of those awards are in science and medicine; fields that the rest of mankind directly benefits from. Look at where the few Muslim prizes are at and its not impressive at all.


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## SemperFiDawg (Oct 28, 2017)

NE GA Pappy said:


> ok... but I didn't think from the OP that religion was the premise for the jews doing so much better than others. I thought the premise was that the jews faired better because of the promise to Abraham that his seed would be a blessing to the whole world.
> 
> 
> But I could be wrong.



You were correct.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 28, 2017)

NE GA Pappy said:


> yeap,  why not.  I know that most see this as a blessing of a savior for the world, but it most certainly can be physical blessings also.  I would also think the skewing of the percentages might have something to do with the Torah study and the importance that jews put on education and understanding natural processes and laws.
> 
> 
> Genesis 22:18 - Bible Gateway
> ...



To start with, I believe all Israel will be saved. But in Miguel's defense, many Christians believe as himself. 

Take Genesis 22:18
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

I'm sure we all agree what this "seed" is. Scripture does get a bit muddled as we go back and forth exactly who or what "Israel" is or became. I believe a nation is a nation myself.

Bless you on your path back to health. I hope to see you make that trip to Israel in the near future.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 28, 2017)

Woodsman69 said:


> And many of those awards are in science and medicine; fields that the rest of mankind directly benefits from. Look at where the few Muslim prizes are at and its not impressive at all.



If we are blessed by the science and medicine of the Jews as in all nations will be blessed by them, then God is the Great Scientist.
Science isn't our enemy as some make it out to be.
It is just the avenue God has done the major abundance of his work and creation. This is the blessings all nations receive from the Jews for discovering it.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 28, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Hey MC, tell me agin about how us “Ultra Right Wing Christian Conservatives” are worse than Radical Athiest in alienating people.
> 
> Brother you need to start over.  You have missed the point from the get go and you just keep burying yourself deeper with every post.



He didn't miss the point, he just doesn't agree with it. He isn't alienating people because people are already divided on the "point" of the OP.


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## Spineyman (Oct 28, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> *To start with, I believe all Israel will be saved. *But in Miguel's defense, many Christians believe as himself.
> 
> Take Genesis 22:18
> And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
> ...



 Romans 9:6-9
Israel’s Rejection and God’s Purpose

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

 Matthew 23:37-39New King James Version (NKJV)
Jesus Laments over Jerusalem

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”


Romans 2:25-29
Circumcision of No Avail

25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

 Philippians 3:3

3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, 

I do believe that the Jewish people will return to the God of their Fathers, and will accept the Son whom the Father sent, but not all Israelite's will be saved but those who are children of the promise. I also believe that the Nation will be restored.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 28, 2017)

Jeremiah 31:31–34
“Behold, the days come, says the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was an husband unto them, says the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, says the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord’: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

Romans 11:24-25
For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 28, 2017)

Gentiles became  heirs together with the "Commonwealth" of Israel through adoption not replacement;

Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:12-14
remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.14For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 28, 2017)

I look at it this way. God wrote the story therefore Israel was chosen to be partially hardened. This had to happen the way it happened to make God's plan come about. 
He did this to allow salvation to the Gentiles by choosing a Remnant of Jews and hardening the others.

"a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in"

Finally Gentiles were no longer strangers to the covenants of promise given to the commonwealth. It was in the story/plan before it happened.

What happens next as revealed by Paul, and after the Gentiles are grafted in to the "commonwealth" of Israel;

 "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."

Still God's plan from the beginning. The remnant chosen and the rest hardened. To allow salvation to the Gentiles through grafting into the tree of Israel. The nourishing root of Israel. The commonwealth that had the promises of the covenant.

You have natural branches and you have wild branches of this tree. I don't see how anyone can read Romans 11 and deny that Israel is a nation and not the Church. God didn't allow Gentiles into the commonwealth to make the "Church" jealous. God didn't harden the "Church." God didn't choose a remnant from the Church.

Remember the mystery?
Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Perhaps God knowing and choosing Abraham and his lineage to bring in the "Seed" was the reason he will do what he does concerning all of Israel.

Romans 11:27-
27And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.” 28Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs.29For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. 32For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all.

Part of the mystery of God's original plan revealed by Paul. God had to harden the Jews to have mercy on the Gentiles. 

33 O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways!

Paul knew it would be hard for us to accept the logic of God's plan.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 28, 2017)

Spineyman said:


> I do believe that the Jewish people will return to the God of their Fathers, and will accept the Son whom the Father sent, but not all Israelite's will be saved but those who are children of the promise. I also believe that the Nation will be restored.



I've read Romans 9 as well. It is a bit confusing compared to Romans 11. Perhaps the children of the promise means something more than has been revealed. 
Could these children be all of Israel plus grafted in Gentiles? Will all nations eventually worship God as per Psalm 86:9 and Psalm 22:27?

I don't believe the children of the promise in Romans 9 has as much to do with Gentiles as much as it does who the descendants of Abraham was.
Israel was the nation that had the covenants;
Romans 9:4
the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory and the covenants; theirs the giving of the Law, the temple worship, and the promises.

It does say not all of Israel is Israel but continues with Abraham. It's not the children of flesh. We could stop right there and assume it's the children of the promise which would have to be the pre-chosen. Romans 9 really gets into election after this.

Backing up a bit;
"For the Scriptures say, "Isaac is the son through whom your descendants will be counted," though Abraham had other children, too."
 Rather, "In Isaac your offspring will be named."

This still shows lineage regardless.If descendants will be named. Confusion as to if it's descendant or descendants, seed or seeds.

"and not all of Abraham's descendants are his true descendants. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that descendants will be named for you."
(this shows plural)

Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
(this may be singular as in a singular Seed/Savior)


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## Spineyman (Oct 29, 2017)

The Church and Israel in the Old Testament

by Iain Duguid

In the beginning, God created Adam and Eve to be a worshipping community: He would be their God and they would be His people. The fall, however, shattered their fellowship with one another as well as with God, a division that was deepened even further in the next generation when Cain murdered his brother. The trajectory away from God begun by Cain’s line ended with a counterfeit worshipping community in Babel (Gen. 11). At the same time, a line of true worshippers ran through Seth to Abram—Abraham—whom God promised to make a great nation and through whom He promised to bless all nations of the earth (Gen. 12:1–3).

God promised Abraham’s grandson Jacob that He would make his twelve sons into a harmonious worshipping “community of nations” (Gen. 28:3) that would be known by his new name, “Israel.” Significantly, the Hebrew word used here for “community” is qāhāl, which the Greek translation of the Old Testament often renders as ekklēsia, “church.” This goal of a worshipping community was reached after the exodus from Egypt when the people came to Mount Sinai. There God declared the Israelites to be His treasured possession, a kingdom of priests and a holy nation (Ex. 19:5–6). The Lord promised to dwell among them as their God (Ex. 29:45). But the people had no sooner committed themselves to this covenant relationship with the Lord than they abandoned Him. While Moses was at the top of the mountain receiving instruction from the Lord, the people were at the bottom fashioning false gods. It was clear from the outset that the “holy nation” had no power to live up to its calling.

The prophets unfold for us the rest of Israel’s history: in spite of God’s faithfulness to them, they were corrupt and rebellious children (Isa. 1:2) and an adulterous wife (Hos. 1–3). This heritage of unfaithfulness belonged equally to the northern and southern kingdoms: Israel and Judah were two twisted sisters from the same family (Ezek. 16; 23) who would each face the punishment of destruction and exile (Ezek. 4:4–6). The Lord could not dwell in the midst of such an unholy people. He abandoned His chosen dwelling place in Jerusalem, leaving His people at the mercy of their Babylonian enemies (Ezek. 8–11).

Yet the destruction of Israel in the exile could not be the end of the story. Because the Lord had attached His name to Israel, the nation would have to be restored lest His holy name be profaned among the nations (Ezek. 20:14). The promises made at Mount Sinai had to be fulfilled (Jer. 33:20–21), so the two nations of Israel and Judah would be restored by the Lord into a single, reunited body made up of all of the clans of Israel (Jer. 31:1) under a single king (Ezek. 37:16–22). The most important promise was the spiritual transformation of Israel into a new people whose unresponsive hearts would be changed into new hearts under a new covenant (Jer. 31:31–33) by an outpouring of God’s Spirit (Ezek. 36:22–28). The new Israel would become the Lord’s servant, a light for the Gentiles, bringing healing to all nations (Isa. 42:6, 10). However, the new Israel depicted in Isaiah 40–48 continued to be a struggling and weak people who needed constant exhortation to pursue obedience as well as encouragement to trust in God’s faithful love for them. To fulfill God’s purposes, another, better Israel would be required, a servant who would take Israel’s place, doing what Israel was unable to do, fulfilling her calling to bring light to the nations (Isa. 49:6).

This servant “Israel” took flesh in the person of Jesus Christ. From the moment of His birth, He reenacted Israel’s history, going down to Egypt so that He could be the true son whom God called out of Egypt (Matt. 2:15, quoting Hos. 11:1). Just as Israel passed through the Red Sea, Jesus passed through the waters of baptism (Matt. 3) before being led out into the wilderness, where He successfully faced the same temptations that Israel had failed to endure (Matt. 4). At the beginning of His ministry, Jesus read aloud Isaiah 61:1–2, declaring that the Scripture had been fulfilled in His hearers’ presence (Luke 4:18–19): He was Himself the promised Servant upon whom God’s Spirit rested. As the new Israel, Jesus perfectly fulfilled the demands of the law. The new covenant that Jeremiah anticipated was established in His blood (Luke 22:20). Jesus fulfilled God’s original design for human holiness, thereby personally embodying the new Israel for which the prophets looked.

Since Jesus Christ is Himself the new Israel, all those united to Him by faith are also incorporated into the Israel of God (Gal. 6:16). He is the true vine, the classic Old Testament image for Israel, and we are His branches (John 15). Because Christ is the living cornerstone of God’s house, those who are joined to Him become living stones in that house (1 Peter 2:4–5) and can be described by the same terminology that described Israel in the Old Testament: in Christ, we are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation” (1 Peter 2:9–10).

Being part of this new covenant Israel is, thus, not a matter of physical descent from Abraham, but rather sharing Abraham’s repentance and faith (Luke 3:8). The new people of God includes Jews and Gentiles together (Gal 3:28), as both are grafted into the new olive tree, Christ/ Israel (Rom. 11:17–24). That does not mean that God has forgotten His promises to those physically descended from Abraham (Rom. 11:1). Certainly not. But not everyone who is descended physically from Israel is part of the new Israel (Rom. 9:6). The restoration of Israel promised in the prophets is accomplished as the gospel is preached to Jerusalem and Judea (the southern kingdom), Samaria (the northern kingdom), and to the ends of the earth, thereby finally bringing God’s light to the Gentiles (Acts 1:8).

In the book of Revelation, John heard God’s people described as a group of 144,000 made up of the twelve tribes of Israel (Rev. 7:4–8). Yet when he looked again, he discovered that the same group was an innumerable crowd from every tribe and nation (Rev. 7:9–12). The Lord’s bride, the image used in the Old Testament for Israel, is the church and will one day be defiled by her sin no longer but beautifully adorned for her husband (Rev. 21:2). In that day, God’s original purpose and plan for Israel—to have a united, holy people belonging to Himself—will finally be fulfilled in the marriage of Christ and His church.

http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/the-church-and-israel-in-the-old-testament/


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## SemperFiDawg (Oct 31, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> He didn't miss the point, he just doesn't agree with it. He isn't alienating people because people are already divided on the "point" of the OP.



All these trolling lines out and no bites in a while?  Here, try one of these.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Oct 31, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> He didn't miss the point, he just doesn't agree with it. He isn't alienating people because people are already divided on the "point" of the OP.



At least someone gets it. 

In retrospect of the Obama years bringing to light the massive corruption of the power elites in government there was a struggle to maintain a conservative presence in the office of the POTUS. The URWCC's wouldn't dare support a "Mormon" because he wasn't a "real Christian", they wouldn't dare support a man that wouldn't come out and declare abortion immoral and illegal. 

I vehemently argued against this line of applying moral self righteousness to politics and in the end it allowed Obama to be elected and nearly cost us our Sovereignty as a Nation. Now the very same people, who don't know the actual man Trump is in person, are the same URWCC's that caused the issues 11 years ago. Creating a divide in Congress, instead of supporting a man that want's to return this Country to a sustainable bearing. 

You don't have to like the candidate, but you do have to have the Faith to know that God will use the candidate best suited to our Constitutional foundings to right this ship. To fail to do so is to bring about question of your self proclaimed Faith in God to begin with. 

Throwing the political baby out with the Christian bath water achieves nothing and is actually more destructive to us in the end.


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## SemperFiDawg (Oct 31, 2017)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> At least someone gets it.



Yes, but unfortunately it’s neither you, nor AutoTroll. 

As for the rest of your post;  off point, off topic, and wrong forum.  Good Grief and Good Day.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Oct 31, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Yes, but unfortunately it’s neither you, nor AutoTroll.
> 
> As for the rest of your post;  off point, off topic, and wrong forum.  Good Grief and Good Day.



That's what I love about URWCC's. It's their way or the highway. At least consistency isn't one of your shortcomings. 

Dig a little beneath the surface of my statements and apply them to the history of Israel and perhaps you might find some parallels as to where we are headed. 

Then again, probably not in your case, but at the very least ask yourself; What good did the Pharisees do for their culture and belief system in the long run.


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## SemperFiDawg (Oct 31, 2017)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> That's what I love about URWCC's. It's their way or the highway. At least consistency isn't one of your shortcomings.
> 
> Dig a little beneath the surface of my statements and apply them to the history of Israel and perhaps you might find some parallels as to where we are headed.
> 
> Then again, probably not in your case, but at the very least ask yourself; What good did the Pharisees do for their culture and belief system in the long run.



MC.  You totally missed the point of the OP.......and you still haven’t grasped it.  HINT:  It has absolutely no political connotations, nor do I care to discuss politics with you, or anything else for that matter.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Oct 31, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> MC.  You totally missed the point of the OP.......and you still haven’t grasped it.  HINT:  It has absolutely no political connotations, nor do I care to discuss politics with you, or anything else for that matter.



Then stop responding to my posts, duhhh. 

At least those in your disdain are intelligent enough to grasp what I am saying.

Clue #1 - 
http://cjonline.com/blog/lucinda/2015-09-11/sadducees-and-pharisees-–-who-are-they-today


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 31, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> All these trolling lines out and no bites in a while?  Here, try one of these.


If you drug one of those through the water around here, the fish would run out on the bank and climb trees.


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## SemperFiDawg (Oct 31, 2017)

NCHillbilly said:


> If you drug one of those through the water around here, the fish would run out on the bank and climb trees.



Lot of posters here have the same effect on any thread with intelligent conversation.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 31, 2017)

I thought it was a very interesting and intelligent topic and conversation. I thought that since it was under the "other faiths" forum, the OP was looking for various beliefs instead of only the ones that agree with his.

I personally welcome all beliefs on threads that I start and/or take part in. Hey, I got it to 59! It was about to fizzle out.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 31, 2017)

I'll admit I did ramble a bit on a couple of responses. One point I was looking at is the various beliefs concerning the Abrahamic Covenant as it concerns; He said that “in you all the nations will be blessed.”  
Trolling for input? Sure.

Here is what Paul thought it was;

Galatians 3:8
What's more, the Scriptures looked forward to this time when God would declare the Gentiles to be righteous because of their faith. God proclaimed this good news to Abraham long ago when he said, "All nations will be blessed through you."


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## Spineyman (Nov 5, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'll admit I did ramble a bit on a couple of responses. One point I was looking at is the various beliefs concerning the Abrahamic Covenant as it concerns; He said that “in you all the nations will be blessed.”
> Trolling for input? Sure.
> 
> Here is what Paul thought it was;
> ...



Revelation 5:9
And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood, men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

 Revelation 7:9 
   After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 7, 2017)

Romans 11:28
Many of the people of Israel are now enemies of the Good News, and this benefits you Gentiles. Yet they are still the people he loves because he chose their ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

"God himself is the one who decided to make Christianity's "Seed" Jewish. Don't ask me why, I don't know. I've often wondered why he chose a nation? If it was eventually not going matter, why did he go that route to begin with?"

Romans 29-31
29For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you.


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## hobbs27 (Nov 8, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 11:28
> Many of the people of Israel are now enemies of the Good News, and this benefits you Gentiles. Yet they are still the people he loves because he chose their ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
> 
> "God himself is the one who decided to make Christianity's "Seed" Jewish. Don't ask me why, I don't know. I've often wondered why he chose a nation? If it was eventually not going matter, why did he go that route to begin with?"
> ...



If in God's eyes there is no longer Jew nor Greek,  how can we honestly say Jew's are still loved by God because of genealogy?


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## hobbs27 (Nov 8, 2017)

Addressing the op.  I think all race of man have the ability to invent and create great things.  culture,  parents,  discipline,  and exposure to learning with encouragement are all the limiting or supporting factors.


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## NE GA Pappy (Nov 8, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> If in God's eyes there is no longer Jew nor Greek,  how can we honestly say Jew's are still loved by God because of genealogy?



huhhh..  Because God says so?

"They shall be My people, and l will be their God. And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put My fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from Me."-Jer 32:38, 40.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 8, 2017)

Ezekiel 37:11-14 
Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope has perished. We are completely cut off.' 12"Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel.  13"Then you will know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people. 14"I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it," declares the LORD.

Kinda lines up with Jeremiah 31:31–34 and Romans 11;

25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove godlessness from Jacob.  27And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.”…


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 8, 2017)

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.  29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

This concerns salvation by the grafting in to the Commonwealth of Israel. In that respect there is no longer Jew nor Gentile, male and female. 
If this is used to show there is no longer Jew and Greek, then let's use it to show there is no longer male and female as well.
Do we still have male and female humans? The Bible says concerning salvation no but otherwise, Yes. 

Just because those that were once strangers to the Commonwealth of Israel have been grafted in doesn't take away from the fact that we still have Jews and Gentiles, males and females.

If someone can explain away Romans 11 otherwise, I'd like to hear a logical explanation.


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## hobbs27 (Nov 8, 2017)

:





NE GA Pappy said:


> huhhh..  Because God says so?
> 
> "They shall be My people, and l will be their God. And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put My fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from Me."-Jer 32:38, 40.



They have been departed since they were no more. Their covenant is fulfilled.


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## hobbs27 (Nov 8, 2017)

We enter into covenant by becoming children of God through the Spirit,  not by genealogy. 

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 8, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> We enter into covenant by becoming children of God through the Spirit,  not by genealogy.
> 
> Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.



You don't see any promises made to Israel in the Bible other than the Seed?

Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

"What were these covenants(plural) of the promise?"

Romans 9:4
They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises.

"promises?"(plural)

Romans 11:28
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,

"Why a distinction?"

Maybe there was a promised Seed that was the main promise and there were other promises as well. 
We could say that through Adam came the Seed and Noah as well. 

What do you reckon was God's reason for choosing Israel? Why did God make Christianity's beginnings a national thing? Why did he elect a Remnant our of Israel and harden the rest? Keep in mine that the Remnant wasn't chosen by works but by grace and grace alone.

You seem to be saying that there is or never was a distinction. Was there ever a time when anything related to God was about genealogy?    
                                                                                                                            Was genealogy only needed to bring the Seed into the world? In other words the only reason God used Israel was to provide a genealogical path for the Seed and a way for that chosen race to kill him?

If the Jews were hardened or "set up" for this plan or mission, wouldn't it stand to reason that maybe "all Israel will be saved?"


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 8, 2017)

Romans 11:26
And so all Israel will be saved. As the Scriptures say, "The one who rescues will come from Jerusalem, and he will turn Israel away from ungodliness.

Romans 11 has to be about physical Israel and not the Church. So even if the Savior already came in 70AD, it means that God made a distinction to and for the nation of Israel.
Maybe there isn't a distinction any more but there was when Paul wrote Romans 11. 

"Election of a Remnant out of Israel and hardening the others until the full number of Gentiles came in. Then all of Israel being saved."

Even if it has already happened it shows that God made promises to national Israel that he fulfilled. Election based on the Patriarchs. Salvation to the House of Jacob. God's covenant with them when he took away their sins. 
Do not be ignorant of this mystery. Do not be conceited about this mystery. 
God’s gifts and His call were irrevocable even if it's already happened. The distinction was there. Even when salvation was being granted without distinction.

Romans 11:31
so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you.…


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 8, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> We enter into covenant by becoming children of God through the Spirit,  not by genealogy.
> 
> Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.



Genesis 22:17
indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies.

"Sounds like a promise to seeds."

Romans 15:8-10
For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs, 9so that the Gentiles may glorify God for His mercy. As it is written: “Therefore I will praise You among the Gentiles; I will sing hymns to Your name.” 10Again, it says: “Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people.”

Promises(plural) to the patriarchs. Rejoice Gentiles with "His" people.

So we have promises to seeds(plural) and we have the promise of the Seed(singular). Both types came by way of genealogy. Both types came through and to Abraham.


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## hobbs27 (Nov 9, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Genesis 22:17
> indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies.
> 
> "Sounds like a promise to seeds."
> ...




The seed is the heir of Abraham. The "seeds" are the Joint heirs of Christ. 

Jesus was the first to receive the inheritance.  Through faith the first century Christians were joint heirs of the promises made to the patriarchs. 
 The will had been probated,  and the inheritance ( Kingdom and everlasting life)  was finally being inherited.


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## SemperFiDawg (Nov 10, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> :
> 
> They have been departed since they were no more. Their covenant is fulfilled.



Notice the hard left turn to 70ad.  And in the Other Faiths forum too.  Must have gotten lonely upstairs, since most have pretty much given up posting up there due to this same nonsense.


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## NE GA Pappy (Nov 10, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Notice the hard left turn to 70ad.  And in the Other Faiths forum too.  Must have gotten lonely upstairs, since most have pretty much given up posting up there due to this same nonsense.



I quit having any discussions for that reason.  

I don't understand how something can be everlasting if there is an end to it.


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## SemperFiDawg (Nov 10, 2017)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I quit having any discussions for that reason.
> 
> I don't understand how something can be everlasting if there is an end to it.



Yeah.  Pretty much any intelligent or interesting post up there is soon taken over by Hobbs and/or Art and either turned into whatever they choose or totally derailed.  Lot of good posters just quit and who can blame them.  Personally I wish they were banned.  They add nothing and only disrupt.


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## hobbs27 (Nov 12, 2017)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I quit having any discussions for that reason.
> 
> I don't understand how something can be everlasting if there is an end to it.



You don't have to respond.  You can even block me if you so choose.  All I do is answer questions like this one you just posed. 

Christians have been granted everlasting life... Yet we will all die. 
 Just as our Spiritual life is everlasting so  was the covenant  IE marriage contract with the old Jerusalem. 
 Jerusalem was God's bride,  yet she became the Harlot and was put to death,  rose again Spiritually as the New Jerusalem and remmaried in the New Covenant.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Nov 12, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> You don't have to respond.  You can even block me if you so choose.  All I do is answer questions like this one you just posed.
> 
> Christians have been granted everlasting life... Yet we will all die.
> Just as our Spiritual life is everlasting so  was the covenant  IE marriage contract with the old Jerusalem.
> Jerusalem was God's bride,  yet she became the Harlot and was put to death,  rose again Spiritually as the New Jerusalem and remmaried in the New Covenant.


The only problem is, somebody forgot to tell Jerusalem / Israel.


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## hobbs27 (Nov 12, 2017)

Israel today is a political non secular country formed after ww2. When for the first time since the first century Judaism became a majority of the population which was caused by Zionism.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 12, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> You don't have to respond.  You can even block me if you so choose.  All I do is answer questions like this one you just posed.
> 
> Christians have been granted everlasting life... Yet we will all die.
> Just as our Spiritual life is everlasting so  was the covenant  IE marriage contract with the old Jerusalem.
> Jerusalem was God's bride,  yet she became the Harlot and was put to death,  rose again Spiritually as the New Jerusalem and remmaried in the New Covenant.



Do you see it as yet another resurrection? Jesus was resurrected and we as individuals will be or were. 
So you see even one more type, physical Israel being resurrected as spiritual Israel. This spiritual Israel is what the Gentiles were grafted into? 
I've been reading about this re-birth in  Ezekiel 36-37. The story of the dry bones. Sounds to me like it is about the resurrection/rebirth you addressed. Eventually the bones took on flesh but lacked one thing. Breath or spirituality. Then Ezekiel prophesied and breath came to them and they lived. God said, “I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live”
It's the same prophesy in Jeremiah 31.

I would agree that it is a rebirth of Israel. The dry bones account gives this rebirth to the physical. First they are dead. Then they take on flesh but have no breath. Eventually they are given life through breath. 
I don't read it as physical becoming spiritual but physical gaining spirituality through the breath of God. Otherwise in the dry bones account, they wouldn't have taken on new flesh.

God said  these bones represent the people of Israel. The people of Israel thought they were dried up, completely cut off. Then God said I will bring you back to the land of Israel.  I will settle you in your own land. 
Then God tells  Ezekiel to take two sticks, to write Ephraim on one and Judah on the other, and to join the sticks together. Joining the two sticks visually illustrates all Israel being regathered and reunited as one people.
God said  I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land.
Then  Israel will be cleansed from all her defilement of sin, idolatry, and detestable things and they will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them.
They will live in the land I gave my servant Jacob, the land where their ancestors lived. They and their children and their grandchildren after them will live there forever, generation after generation.

God said I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 12, 2017)

I'm just trying to follow God's plan from it's inception as it was revealed to me through God's Word. First God created man and man sinned. Soon, through the promises given to Abraham, we learn of a promised Seed and seeds. The seeds that are descendants through Abraham and Isaac came to be known as Jews and/or Israel. These were genealogical descendants of which the Seed(Jesus) came. Jesus was a Jew. 

Promises were made to physical Israel. Later we learn that not all which is Israel is Israel and Gentiles are grafted into the Commonwealth of Israel. Romans 11 says we have people God loves because he chose their ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That they are loved on account of the patriarchs. Then Paul say's "for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable." He says this right after he explains genealogical descendants.

I guess this is where I get lost as some say that since God made promises to the Jews that he must keep that either A) they were never promised to physical Israel or B) they were initially promised to physical Israel but as a way around God not fulfilling his promises he changed it to the spiritual Israel/Church. That God/Jesus divorced Israel and married the Church.

I do know that a lot of folk believe it is A or B above. That still presents a problem when reading Romans 11 which states that God chose a remnant out of physical Israel and hardened the rest of physical Israel until the full number of Gentiles comes in.

We've got this whole chapter devoted to this in-grafting of the Gentiles to provoke physical Israel. Natural branches broken off and unnatural branches grafted onto the nourishing root. Israel's rejection is the reconciliation of the world. It was the Gentiles way into the Commonwealth of Israel. So don't think highly of yourself, but fear what could happen. If you stop trusting, you also will be cut off. Do not be ignorant of this mystery less ye be conceited. 
Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove godlessness from Jacob.

God says "this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
Right after this Paul explains election by geneology, the grafting to make physical Israel jealous, that God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. That we(gentiles) who were formerly disobedient could receive mercy through the Jews disobedience.  So now Israel can be shown the same mercy shown to  us.(gentiles)

Both Jews and Gentiles had to be disobedient so that God could have mercy on both groups. Don't even ask me why it went down like this. Paul knew we wouldn't understand when he said;

How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways!


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## hobbs27 (Nov 12, 2017)

Hebrews 8:13 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

When the author of Hebrews wrote.  The old covenant made with Israel had been made obsolete and was about to disappear.  The way I see it,  there cannot be two covenants today,  for the Old has disappeared. 
 There is no longer Jew nor Greek... There is only one way to the Father,  and that is through the Son. 
 Dispensationalist that believe Jew's are protected or saved through another way are wrong, they should not praise the Jew,  but witness Jesus to them.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 12, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Hebrews 8:13 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
> 
> When the author of Hebrews wrote.  The old covenant made with Israel had been made obsolete and was about to disappear.  The way I see it,  there cannot be two covenants today,  for the Old has disappeared.
> There is no longer Jew nor Greek... There is only one way to the Father,  and that is through the Son.
> Dispensationalist that believe Jew's are protected or saved through another way are wrong, they should not praise the Jew,  but witness Jesus to them.



I think maybe your problem is you see rebirth as always going from physical to spiritual. There are many biblical accounts of rebirths concerning Jesus, individuals, and nations. Rebirths that remained physical with new hearts and new spirits.

Next we have covenants and testaments. What is the covenant mentioned in Ezekiel 36:24-28?

"'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God.

What covenant is this in Ezekiel 37:12-28
My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel.
I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land.  I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; They will never again pollute themselves with their idols and vile images and rebellion, for I will save them from their sinful backsliding. I will cleanse them. Then they will truly be my people, and I will be their God. They will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them.
They will live in the land I gave my servant Jacob, the land where their ancestors lived.
I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever.
The Lord said, “I will be their God, and they shall be My people”
Then the nations will know that I the LORD make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.'"


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 12, 2017)

Hobbs,
In light of the accusation by the OP that we, using our power & influence, take over any intelligent or interesting post for our own agenda and/or for the sole purpose to derail, and force individuals to respond to our nonsense, what do you reckon the OP was trolling for with this thread?

I mean he presented this thread in the "Other Faiths" forum. I wonder what direction he thought a thread on the Abrahamic Covenant would take even without a derailment by me or a change of purpose by you?
I hadn't even responded before Centerpin Fan observed that it was a train wreck. Heck I possess the same belief as the OP in regards to physical Israel and still get lambasted by him. 

Anyway, I've learned a bit from this thread so I have to give thanks to the OP for presenting it for discussion. The Lord does work in mysterious ways. The teacher doesn't always have to be who we think it should be. 
I'm not sure exactly what he was fishing for but I took the bait and it was tasty. It was a nourishing root.


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## hobbs27 (Nov 13, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Hobbs,
> In light of the accusation by the OP that we, using our power & influence, take over any intelligent or interesting post for our own agenda and/or for the sole purpose to derail, and force individuals to respond to our nonsense, what do you reckon the OP was trolling for with this thread?
> 
> I mean he presented this thread in the "Other Faiths" forum. I wonder what direction he thought a thread on the Abrahamic Covenant would take even without a derailment by me or a change of purpose by you?
> ...




I don't speculate. It's the same treatment I would get from most organized denominations today.  I've learned to not get caught up in it,  so I pray for them and myself for knowledge and maturity. 

You have asked too many questions in the last couple of posts for me to answer.  I spend little time on here lately,  so I'm just going to share this with you a friend of mine recently put together to show the importance of Re- 
 And how soteriology and eschatology are so linked together.  If you investigate this,  it will answer most of the questions you had. 


To be REformed (Heb. 9:10), REstored (Acts 3:21), REconciled (Heb. 2:17), REgenerated (Mat. 19:28), REnewed (Titus 3:5), REwarded (Col. 3:24), REdeemed (Titus 2:14), and REsurrected (Luke 20:36 & Acts 24:15) are synonyms related to soteriology which was simultaneously accomplished with eschatology when the REstitution of all things was fulfilled at the REturn of Christ. All this is what we possess today in our state of sin REmitted!


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