# We don't attend church?



## opie44 (Sep 20, 2015)

So my inlaws, who are hard core southern baptists, believe that we should attend their church and only their church.  

To take the story back, I have been raised non denominational where my wife was raised southern baptist.  We are talking about the screaming preacher and hellfire brimstone type.  When we got married, we agreed to alternate Sundays and it worked out just fine.  Later on my wife decided through prayer and God that the baptist church was not where she needed to be spiritually. We have since been going to my church.  

Ever since then we have come under fire with her father mostly about how we are not involved in church.  Little comments here and there about how we need to get back in church and put God back in our lives.  We have had healthy debates as well as full blown fights over this.  There seems to be little care about spiritual growth and more concern over filling a seat. It seems no matter how many times I state my position, it goes in one ear and out the other.  

Has anyone else dealt with this?


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## JB0704 (Sep 21, 2015)

When you say "we have had healthy debates," does "we" mean you and your wife, or you and your in-laws?


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## hobbs27 (Sep 21, 2015)

All southern Baptist know that the man is the spiritual leader of the family. Tell them as the spiritual leader God has you where He wants you, and if they have a problem with that take it up with God, because you aren't going to argue with God about it.
 Stick to that and it should settle it....BTW abide by that too, you do have responsibilities as the man.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 21, 2015)

Are you involved in your church?  Are you growing spiritually?

If you are, tell your father-in-law how your church is doing this in your life and how you are active in your church.  If this doesn't work, hobbs27 method should work.


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## PappyHoel (Sep 21, 2015)

Does your wife have your side on this or does she just sit back and not voice her opinion.  That's an important clarification that's needed.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Sep 21, 2015)

Void of Old Testament (read irrelevant) doctrine which was fulfilled (read completed and no longer relevant) and not counting Missions around the world that "his" church may be so fond of touting that they are fulfilling the Great Commission by sending a handful of kids to once or twice a year. NOTHING in the Great Commission stated "Sit in your pews, keeping them warm, staying statuesque in your attendance all while making sure you toss your $5 in the plate when it comes around." and does in fact challenge us to GET OUT of the church (read building) so we may go forth into the world, which includes our own community right here in the good ol' screwed up US of A. 

Also, the Greatest Commandments of all do not give authority of anyone of Christian faith to judge whether their denomination is greater than any other. 

Jis sayin.


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## JB0704 (Sep 21, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> All southern Baptist know that the man is the spiritual leader of the family. Tell them as the spiritual leader God has you where He wants you, and if they have a problem with that take it up with God, because you aren't going to argue with God about it.
> Stick to that and it should settle it....BTW abide by that too, you do have responsibilities as the man.



Ever seen a church hold a woman accountable for the actions of her husband?  Such doctrines are abandoned when convenient by those who are trying to accomplish things.  In the topic at hand, sounds like FIL is trying to get his daughter back in his church.  I can sympathize to a certain extent, I have a daughter and can't imagine what it might take to let go.......of course, I still have a long way to go before I get there.

In-laws cause problems when their input is not taken in proper context.  Mrs JB and I went through multiple pre-marital courses given my hesitance after the disaster that was my first marriage (we never had problems, but I wanted to make sure we were educated and well informed before jumping into things, and after 8 years I am certain the courses were very beneficial to us).  3 different organizations all said the same thing..........keep the in-laws out of the marriage.  That has been excellent advice for us.


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## JB0704 (Sep 21, 2015)

PappyHoel said:


> Does your wife have your side on this or does she just sit back and not voice her opinion.  That's an important clarification that's needed.



It's very hard for a woman to go against Mom 'n Daddy.  She should never be put in that situation by her parents.


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## opie44 (Sep 21, 2015)

PappyHoel said:


> Does your wife have your side on this or does she just sit back and not voice her opinion.  That's an important clarification that's needed.



Me and my wife are definitely on the same page.  She is pretty outspoken about this and that is how things blow up.  She will voice an opinion and he doesn't agree. He called me last night to discuss this among other things.  He says that he has no issue with us going to our own church but says in the next sentence that he wants us to come back to his church.  My wife has grown spiritually and continues to do so. Our marriage has gotten better and we have grown closer as a couple.  What is sad is that her father doesn't want to hear it.  She asked him if he would rather her go somewhere where she can grow spiritually or go to his church because of him.  He would not answer. Thanks to everyone on their input. Just trying to figure a way to get him to understand.  He is pretty closed minded.


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## opie44 (Sep 21, 2015)

JB0704 said:


> When you say "we have had healthy debates," does "we" mean you and your wife, or you and your in-laws?



Between us and the in-laws...


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## Milkman (Sep 21, 2015)

I will say this to encourage  you.

My son was raised in the United Methodist church. Now he and his family attend a non traditional type church group. They are active and attend and participate in functions and worship.

I could not be happier for them.


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## PappyHoel (Sep 21, 2015)

opie44 said:


> Me and my wife are definitely on the same page.  She is pretty outspoken about this and that is how things blow up.  She will voice an opinion and he doesn't agree. He called me last night to discuss this among other things.  He says that he has no issue with us going to our own church but says in the next sentence that he wants us to come back to his church.  My wife has grown spiritually and continues to do so. Our marriage has gotten better and we have grown closer as a couple.  What is sad is that her father doesn't want to hear it.  She asked him if he would rather her go somewhere where she can grow spiritually or go to his church because of him.  He would not answer. Thanks to everyone on their input. Just trying to figure a way to get him to understand.  He is pretty closed minded.



That's good to hear.  The only reason I brought that up was I had a very similar situation with my now X wife.  She and my Inlaws couldn't cut the cord and I was always on the outside.  There's good advice in the thread and put into perspective there could be worse disagreements.


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## JB0704 (Sep 21, 2015)

opie44 said:


> Just trying to figure a way to get him to understand.  He is pretty closed minded.



Your willingness to reason is above and beyond, IMO, and he should be thankful you are willing to do so.

I am glad you and the Mrs are on the same page, and hope you are able to keep FIL on the "outside" of that.


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## opie44 (Sep 21, 2015)

Thanks for all the advice guys! I am pretty open minded and try to look at scenarios from all sides.  Next time the subject gets brought up, I will throw some Southern Baptist doctrine at him.  I will tell him that I as the husband am the spiritual leader of my house/family.  And as the spiritual leader, I also discuss with my wife what she needs spiritually and work to fulfill both of our needs.  

Hopefully that will help...


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## 4HAND (Sep 21, 2015)

I went through this with my mother. She wanted us to go to the church she attends(still does I'm sure). Her brother used to pastor it & now his son does. There are just a handful that still go there. There is nothing for my children there.

There are some doctrinal differences between that church & the church we are members of. We have been attending our church for several years & are very involved. My wife helps with youth groups & nursery. My 14 year old daughter helps with a children's Sunday school class & the nursery. We assist with chaperoning youth group trips. I am one of the musicians & also assist with background checks/security issues.
We love our church! Our church feeds my family spiritually. Our church is growing. We look forward to attending Sun morning, Sun night, & Wed. We seldom miss & I am so thankful of that. There was a time in my life that you couldn't have dragged me into a church. 

My mother & I used to get into debates about the same thing you are talking about. I'm telling you man, I know what ya'll are going through. One day I just told my mother that I really believed that we were right where God wanted us to be. Since then, although she still occasionally makes remarks, the debates ended, thank God. 

Just my 2 cents, but I would attend the church that is promoting spiritual growth & where you feel "connected" to.


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## JB0704 (Sep 22, 2015)

4HAND said:


> One day I just told my mother that I really believed that we were right where God wanted us to be.



I don't go to church, and have used the same line.  It fails to silence the nay-sayers.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 22, 2015)

JB0704 said:


> I don't go to church, and have used the same line.  It fails to silence the nay-sayers.



You're right.....it doesn't.


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## JB0704 (Sep 22, 2015)

Huntinfool said:


> You're right.....it doesn't.


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## Dr. Strangelove (Sep 22, 2015)

JB0704 said:
			
		

> ..........keep the in-laws out of the marriage. That has been excellent advice for us.



Best advice in the thread.


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## M80 (Sep 24, 2015)

JB0704 said:


> I don't go to church, and have used the same line.  It fails to silence the nay-sayers.



Ummmmmmm, still waiting


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## JB0704 (Sep 24, 2015)

mwilliams80 said:


> Ummmmmmm, still waiting



I haven't forgotten.  Was out of town at the last time you mentioned. 

But, I am a slacker, and now, I have guilt


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## Huntinfool (Sep 25, 2015)

...probably because you don't go to church.


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## ryanh487 (Sep 25, 2015)

I would respectfully set the boundary that this is not a decision your in-laws are welcome to take part in.  The decision is made, their invitation is heard, the conversation is over and if they can't talk about something else then there won't be any talking until they can.  I had to do that with my in-laws on other issues, and while there was initial backlash they ended up respecting me far more because I stepped up and took charge of my household.


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## JB0704 (Sep 25, 2015)

Huntinfool said:


> ...probably because you don't go to church.



  Don't be piling on.......


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## 95g atl (Sep 26, 2015)

move away from the in laws OR don't invite them over anymore.


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## gemcgrew (Sep 26, 2015)

JB0704 said:


> I don't go to church, and have used the same line.  It fails to silence the nay-sayers.


JB, tradition imposes an obligation for church attendance that goes well beyond what is taught in the Bible. Unless your absence is an act of rebellion, you are where you need to be.


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## M80 (Sep 26, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> JB, tradition imposes an obligation for church attendance that goes well beyond what is taught in the Bible. Unless your absence is an act of rebellion, you are where you need to be.



Im real busy so I might not reply for a little while but why would any born again person not want to attend church Gem, I'm have a desire to go to church, I need church and worshipping The Lord with brothers and sisters in Christ. 
I'm so excited to go in the morning because I never know what is going to happen. Wasn't it David who said I was glad when they said let us go into the house of The Lord.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 27, 2015)

Recently I have heard that a serious study was done by the Anglican Church in England, if I recall correctly, where they surveyed people in their communities regards church attendance. 

Of the people who said they identified as Christians or believing in God, they found three identifiable  believing groups in the greater community.

1. D-churched. These people do not identify with traditional church for various reasons and perceptions. ( They cringe at the ideas of sitting in a pew.) These people can't see themselves being "caught" in a church setting, but they will share on the internet and participate in events that share responsible spiritual values outside of traditional church.

2. Non-churched.  These folk, usually mom and dad are super busy working, sometimes long hours, sometimes shift work and also devoting much of their time to family and raising kids. Sometimes Dad works all Saturdays, and Mom works all Sundays.  When these parents have time off they are exhausted--yet they must devote time to family. They have just stopped attending church. Perhaps it started with  on Sunday a month with not going to church but doing some family activity-- and as life gets more and more hectic church gets pushed out. It is not that they don't want to go to church, it is that they are in the habit of not going---with  reasons. They still identify as Christians, and declare they believe in God. They what their kids to be baptized or to know the church and to participate in church bible study and activities. They might go to church Easter or Christmas. Family activities are valued not only because of social responsibilites- but of spiritual ones also. And they want to be laid to rest when the time come going out bodily through the church doors. 

3. Un-churched. These people have a vague idea of church, but they were not raised by believers or simple dismiss religion and spiritual life. Church is an  institution of ideas, a byproduct of spiritual interests or an accident of man's spiritual nature and personal quests to enlightenment. Church is a product of social conditioning.  And in this group you have people who just don't believe--and that's that. Or if somewhat believeing,  it is a fence sitting thing, both hot and cold by reason being unable to prove or disproved issues on divinity.


-----------------

Ministry and the ministered have their work cut out in our present world--me thinks. 

Can we have compassion for parents who have to work four jobs ( two each) to make ends meet in a very rich society? Families where parents both work shift work?

Can we love people that see church as a stick in the mud, for many reasons, historical and lived?

Can we love people who "just don't believe" for various reasons: from  a God that would permit evil in the world  and for logical and reasonable conclusions afforded by reason and the sciences?

These are three different groups that if the church decides to minister to, they might not what to  go with a one size fits all.

 Hope this might help someone somewhere...

02cts.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Sep 27, 2015)

gordon2 said:
			
		

> Can we love people who "just don't believe" for various reasons for a God that would permit evil in the world  and for logical and reasonable conclusions afforded by reason and the sciences?



And thus the divide between demographics in their study, and the UMC's study and every other denomination that has done this study and come up with the same results. 

You're question above says it all. 

Jesus did not hang out in a church. He did not promote Pharisee's as his disciples, in fact they are the ones he had the most contention with. 

Jesus did not bludgeon people over the head with the (OT) laws. 

HE went to where the people were, walked among them, talked among them and lived and talked on their level, in a way they could understand.

You wanna know where the great divide between Christianity and the world is today? Look no further.


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## 4HAND (Sep 27, 2015)

mwilliams80 said:


> Im real busy so I might not reply for a little while but why would any born again person not want to attend church Gem, I'm have a desire to go to church, I need church and worshipping The Lord with brothers and sisters in Christ.
> I'm so excited to go in the morning because I never know what is going to happen. Wasn't it David who said I was glad when they said let us go into the house of The Lord.



Amen.


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## Israel (Sep 27, 2015)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> And thus the divide between demographics in their study, and the UMC's study and every other denomination that has done this study and come up with the same results.
> 
> You're question above says it all.
> 
> ...



So many motives...but only one true mover.
So many reasons...but only one in whom all reason is.
So many buildings...but only one true builder.

Can I escape church? Perhaps not if the one who calls me is true. 
Can any?
One comes and I hear God in him. I cannot lie. Even if I resist...my resistance is shown as the lie. 

If I say to him, "brother, I hear God in you..." Do I do a disservice to him? 
Can any know anything of Christ...outside of church?
Not "a" church...but church?
Have I seen the Christ of God?
This, no man can answer...
Am I "in church"...this, no man need answer.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 27, 2015)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> And thus the divide between demographics in their study, and the UMC's study and every other denomination that has done this study and come up with the same results.
> 
> You're question above says it all.
> 
> ...



Your direction  from the studies seems to be similar to most. Meet People Where They Are. If they are on the net or facebook, meet them there in a respectful and constructive way. And perhaps mission and chapels can be offered where busy families might have access if they wish. And perhaps the church can find common grounds of friendship and even affection in the consciousness of people who don't and share in sometimes difficult ways that they" can't" believe.

Christ is always a Good example-- as you say,as we say and sometimes forget. Thanks for pointing this out--this pointer is never out of place. Peace.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 27, 2015)

Israel said:


> So many motives...but only one true mover.
> So many reasons...but only one in whom all reason is.
> So many buildings...but only one true builder.
> 
> ...



Lots of people would say "where three are gathered in his name"--- and they go with it...in faith. Yet is this the genesis of the church? What is its source? Is it in the gathering or in the eternal?


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## Israel (Sep 27, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> Lots of people would say "where three are gathered in his name"--- and they go with it...in faith. Yet is this the genesis of the church? What is its source? Is it in the gathering or in the eternal?



Oh yes. But perhaps left to the "lots of", as I must.
I don't know if it's the intersection or union of the same subset of "lots of" that will perhaps say something like "go to a good Bible believing church" 
I have yet to find one place where upon entering I am greeted with "welcome brother, we don't believe the Bible here!" 
So, when is discernment not called for, for a man to be true to his conscience? Not even, in this particular case...my own conscience.
Yet, if it be that my conscience is seared, and I hide in pretense, God knows. I, of course, would prefer to rest in that. (I say "of course", like a fool...for what I mean is "I have no other place to rest")
For, again, what man meets you with "I am totally deceived...and yet...I know it!" Almost, no, not almost, but perfectly unutterable.

Not that the welcome may be any less the sincere than at best it can be...but is one welcomed into "their church"...or welcomed as a member of the body of Christ? I don't say, one way or the other that any exist in any manner...either as provincial outposts of the all conquering King, or simply the province of men's religions.
That the body is gathered is all. And, each is being gathered.
To whom, and to what, will all be made plain, soon enough. Two bodies grow, two heads lead, two species of bird hovering above, each to each, all to be made manifest. One, however remains.
To "come to Christ" is, in my understanding at least today, when one comes "to church". What comes after that, or specifically because of that, is in the Lord's hand.
One says "but you order your own steps far too much!"

Yes, I am sure. Too much.
And now, I realize your question. 
Yes, the eternal is manifest...even here.


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## gemcgrew (Sep 27, 2015)

mwilliams80 said:


> Im real busy so I might not reply for a little while but why would any born again person not want to attend church Gem, I'm have a desire to go to church, I need church and worshipping The Lord with brothers and sisters in Christ.
> I'm so excited to go in the morning because I never know what is going to happen. Wasn't it David who said I was glad when they said let us go into the house of The Lord.


We are warned over 200 times in the NT of false teachers, false Christ, false religion, etc. So there are at least that many reasons.

Sometimes Providence places a man in an area where he is not afforded the opportunity to attend a God honoring church. I currently live in such an area. Why must I go sit in a building where a man ridicules God and the work of Christ? I am not so crippled as to rely upon some sort of social faith gathering.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 27, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> We are warned over 200 times in the NT of false teachers, false Christ, false religion, etc. So there are at least that many reasons.
> 
> Sometimes Providence places a man in an area where he is not afforded the opportunity to attend a God honoring church. I currently live in such an area. Why must I go sit in a building where a man ridicules God and the work of Christ? I am not so crippled as to rely upon some sort of social faith gathering.



I know the feeling. " Hey Pastor, Deacons,Teachers, if the bible says x why do we demand y'?

 Sure miss them good dinners though.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 27, 2015)

Israel said:


> Oh yes. But perhaps left to the "lots of", as I must.
> I don't know if it's the intersection or union of the same subset of "lots of" that will perhaps say something like "go to a good Bible believing church"
> I have yet to find one place where upon entering I am greeted with "welcome brother, we don't believe the Bible here!"
> So, when is discernment not called for, for a man to be true to his conscience? Not even, in this particular case...my own conscience.
> ...



True, all true. Yet, social beings need social services. That is to say the road to the river might be a little easier and a little wider if the church out there has a bush hog to the cemetery's tractor because the church inner prayed and past the plate for it. True, all true.


 Quote[ "I have yet to find one place where upon entering I am greeted with "welcome brother, we don't believe the Bible here!"]End quote. 

That is funny right there--don't care who you are.


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## Israel (Sep 27, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> True, all true. Yet, social beings need social services. That is to say the road to the river might be a little easier and a little wider if the church out there has a bush hog to the cemetery's tractor because the church inner prayed and past the plate for it. True, all true.
> 
> 
> Quote[ "I have yet to find one place where upon entering I am greeted with "welcome brother, we don't believe the Bible here!"]End quote.
> ...




I was in part facetious, and I am glad you took it so.
I don't know that this conversation can ever get away from...OK...there are all these buildings out there, almost all have the word "Church" displayed somewhere, and well...some of us go here, some of us go there, and some of us...maybe don't show up at any?

But, and this is a big but, I know...if I hear your spirit (what do I hear anyway?) your question is less "Don't you think you ought to be going to one...(who knows...maybe all) than it is this: 

Do you see the need for the gathering of the saints, here, in this place we call earth and (I  may be stretching here) do you see the church (that gathering, whatever it is, however it is, wherever it may be) as the "thing" to which we show we belong to the eternal, or is it that the eternal gathering is manifest...even here? If I am adding a little chicken or egg first, more than you want to mean, I apologize. But, if that be your question...yes, to both. Now, the worm can gets upended, perhaps. Because the yes does not imply anything other than "yes".
But if you also ask...is the true gathering only a "someday" thing, to be experienced (and here my lines get flexible) "in heaven", I am mute. (Because my lines are flexible)

Perhaps what I mean that the only true gathering is the heavenly gathering. Yes, the genesis is heavenly, both our start...and end. To the Lord.

Now here, I am aware, or better, have been made aware of a pitfall obviously not peculiar to me. Paul warned of those who say, or again better, warned those who say "I am of Paul" "I am of Apollos" but, I perceive also "I am of Christ"!
I am relatively secure (yet ready for rebuke...well maybe) that this was also a claim of superiority, and not the humble confession it might appear. I mean...who can trump that? (Having played pinochle with Christ in the presence of his other children I have been forced to learn a lesson...my desire to win over his others, to triumph over his others, to show myself in any way "superior" to his others...is really, about the only time I have used his name, can use his name, as a curse. Trying to trump...has gotten me thumped) But, the thumping was oh so necessary, how else can a fool be taught we are all "of one"? 

(Just you and me Lord...right? Against everything and everyone else, right? "Ooops"...said he, "someone needs a diaper changed." And remind me not to allow you near the corn, let alone what you have been thinking is "meat" for the mature. Whewww..." )

But you still love me right? I mean us...


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## gordon 2 (Sep 27, 2015)

Israel said:


> I was in part facetious, and I am glad you took it so.
> I don't know that this conversation can ever get away from...OK...there are all these buildings out there, almost all have the word "Church" displayed somewhere, and well...some of us go here, some of us go there, and some of us...maybe don't show up at any?
> 
> But, and this is a big but, I know...if I hear your spirit (what do I hear anyway?) your question is less "Don't you think you ought to be going to one...(who knows...maybe all) than it is this:
> ...



But you still love me right? I mean us...

I remember you were so cryptic and more guarded. How you have changed! Your almost perfect now. 

 Yes, you both. Sure. 

 Quote: Perhaps what I mean that the only true gathering is the heavenly gathering. Yes, the genesis is heavenly, both our start...and end. To the Lord. End quote.

For me that is the church within the church--the rest is works and dross. Some works are better than others depending on the charisma of the workers and what they have to work with. 

I hold that we are all brothers and sisters in our baptism. I have seen the Spirit fall on rank strangers to me. I have heard the roof roar with the classic ring of witness in scripture--in houses of worship that were not my own. But the Spirit on these did not last, as it was with the borrowers of the spirit that rested on Moses-- yet I count them as  movements earnest and honest. Yet I know God is present always where he has told me to make my home. 

I will never haggard a person that my rest is truer than his or hers. I will defend the Good News--however.

My parents, both my mom and my dad, thought me to eat what was on my plate as in not to leave it and wine that there must be better. I respect that this is the case for many good homes. And I respect those who were raised in the competitions of moving to better neighbourhoods. It is what it is.

But all and all, the church for me is the mystical presence of Jesus active in the world. ( Pretty much bought what Paul says concerning it.)The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is always present to believers in the church. That is the church I know. And I must admit it colors by outlooks-- but never to dismiss what others have on their plates.


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## Israel (Sep 27, 2015)

This, perhaps in part, is that of which I wondered.

Are we ever able to step away from the "I go here because" or as I believe you put it:
Yet I know God is present always where he has told me to make my home. 

I am not sure we "should"..."need to"...or otherwise. 

But, yes, we are all "colored" by our views, our experiences, our "me-ness".
I could ask...might it not be that your home in Christ is what you experience? Might it be the "being at home", a grace extended you (as I believe it is) through Christ, is also the very thing I see in this:
I will never haggard a person that my rest is truer than his or hers. I will defend the Good News--however. (?)

Is it not the good news extolled in "I will never leave you, nor forsake you..." That knowing of which nothing can come between "I am yours...and you are mine"

There are a million places in which this is known. And yes, I have no doubt it is as easily made known inside a building as outside, in the presence of a multitude of singing and rejoicing saints, in the audience of a speaker or "authority", as even alone in the dimmest of cells. In the breaking of bread or the deepest throes of hunger pains.
Even..."on"...here.
We carry our home. It colors all we do.


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## M80 (Sep 27, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> We are warned over 200 times in the NT of false teachers, false Christ, false religion, etc. So there are at least that many reasons.
> 
> Sometimes Providence places a man in an area where he is not afforded the opportunity to attend a God honoring church. I currently live in such an area. Why must I go sit in a building where a man ridicules God and the work of Christ? I am not so crippled as to rely upon some sort of social faith gathering.



I agree with false prophets, I'm so thankful I am where I Am. Forsake not the assembling our yourself a together the bible says also. Do you at least meet with local born again believers and worship The Lord together. Brother I feed off of other members following the leadership of The Lord.


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## gemcgrew (Sep 28, 2015)

mwilliams80 said:


> I agree with false prophets, I'm so thankful I am where I Am. Forsake not the assembling our yourself a together the bible says also.


Yes, it does. Would you use that verse to deprive me of growing more and more dependent upon Christ and Christ alone? Is Christ the author and finisher of our faith, or is it the church and other believers?



mwilliams80 said:


> Do you at least meet with local born again believers and worship The Lord together.


Providence has not afforded the opportunity.


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## Israel (Sep 28, 2015)

How lost we are apart from the spirit of Christ. Surely here, in this place we see, feel, touch...we have no enduring city. 

Men around us build fervently, labor intensively, root endlessly, and who of us does not feel that press upon our soul? "WE will bring heaven down", they say, thinking they mean one thing, but the plainness of their words betray. We may speak the truth to them, but they laugh us to scorn. "There is no scaling the back fence to Eden, you must meet the flaming messenger with his blazing sword and die to enter".

Ha ha ha is our oft heard retort. Our souls are wounded here, where do we turn for comfort? Do we, with men's bricks try to rebuild a comfort? We may, we may even have many verses, that we use, like those bricks, to be set in place each upon the other, till a bulwark is built...ahh, again our soul feels secure. 

But this call, this ever troubling call into a place...as Abraham stepped, to a place unseen, beckons. "Come, walk in the land I WILL show you". None can go apart from the trust, the faith, revealed at the touch of those words. May we, like Abraham...like Peter, like Paul, have much to learn in practice? May we resort to a slumber, awake to old ways, even in this walking? Yes. 

But, uncondemned. And yet, the stripes are real, the chastenings, profound, but we learn, faithful are the wounds of a friend.
We learn. 
Abraham is found guiltless in a deception. And by the same author of his faith, his wife is preserved, pure.

Peter, moved in hunger, fell into a trance that he might receive a vision of help. "This is where", we may say, "God told Peter it is alright for him to go to the gentiles" Yes. But is it not also this: where God gave Peter the confirming of soul and resolve to simply do what the Lord had already instructed? Had not the ascension passed? Had not these words already been spoken: Go ye therefore, into all the world..." and all that follows.

We are even given to hear Peter's replies...his previous bulwark of preservation, the law. And yet, who of us dare accuse our brother of slackness, poverty of obedience, a deafness to death?
Who alone is sufficient? Who is all our help in all our weakness?

And what do we do with Paul? What do we do with the curveball he throws into "our scriptures"? "I say, not the Lord..." What is to be made of an inspired man in conceding to himself what so many call "the word of God?" Obviously, either an "umbrella of grace" is over all, and we see that faithful men may have faithful opinions in their stations, or we are ready to contend.

Will we make a law of assembly? We may. But then, are we not also held to "Pray without ceasing"? Who cares to make a law of "Rejoice in the Lord always"? or "In everything give thanks"? "Fear not"?
We can. And watch ourselves when hammer hits thumb, when blowout at 70 occurs, or when that fellow unsignalled, cuts in front when there's not even a car's length between. Or when we awaken to discover we have fallen asleep across our bed, while on our knees beside it.

I will say this, not denying some of you are indeed thankful, prayerful, and rejoicing always...(and in boldness testify by the word of the Lord) it is not by the making of these things law that has blessed you so. You know it has been in the seeking of a gift, a grace, a responding to an invitation to rest. 

Those that are pressed to it, (like Peter in hunger) finding nothing of the world's pleasures sufficient, nothing of soul's first choice but ashes and d##g, may discover Hey! WE are allowed to be assembled! We are allowed to drop everything that separates us...names, titles, traditions, histories, personal preferences and previous dispositions! And for us all, some theologies. (Poor, poor soul...who shall comfort you now?)

Till then, we sit. But then, we rise.

Unless a grain of wheat fall in the ground and die, it abides alone. But, if it fall in the ground and die, it bears much fruit.

This table where tax collector eats with fisherman, where even Judas must have his place, is not of us, or our own. What we allow to separate our communion must be revealed, that he who has brought communion might be revealed. 
We, only of all, are "allowed" to show the Christ.


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## JB0704 (Sep 28, 2015)

This thread sure took on a new life.......Gem, I appreciate your thoughts.  I can't claim that there "is no good church" near me.  I haven't visited them all, and, until then, I can't say that.  However, I do feel I am where I need to be for various reasons.

As far as assembling with others, I am actively involved in other things which have me regularly around believers.  This is not dedicated worship time, but, I do plenty of "serving," more so than I probably would if I was in a church.  I also continue to give where I can, and where need exists.  So, I have not completely left "the body," I just do not belong to a local congregation.

I get a lot of pressure from friends about church.  But, are they going to abandon principle for convenience and entertainment as well?  Like so many others do?  People are so stinking shallow these days, to the point that it's not "cool" any more to actually apply beliefs to the system.  No........just go along with the crowd, nobody likes a "naysayer."


----------



## j_seph (Sep 28, 2015)

opie44 said:


> Thanks for all the advice guys! I am pretty open minded and try to look at scenarios from all sides.  Next time the subject gets brought up, I will throw some Southern Baptist doctrine at him.  I will tell him that I as the husband am the spiritual leader of my house/family.  And as the spiritual leader, I also discuss with my wife what she needs spiritually and work to fulfill both of our needs.
> 
> Hopefully that will help...


I know the above is mentioned in the Bible but here's something I have dealt with. Although at this point she is my girlfriend I tend to let her make the decisions on the spiritual side of our relationship. In my heart I feel she is the for lack of other words "the experienced one". She was born and raised in church, even talking about doing as her best friend and making her a prayer room like in the movie War Room. Maybe at some point I will be able to say the above after marriage but to me she is the one helping lead me on my journey, helping me to move closer to God in my life.


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## Buck Nasty (Sep 28, 2015)

j_seph said:


> I know the above is mentioned in the Bible but here's something I have dealt with. Although at this point she is my girlfriend I tend to let her make the decisions on the spiritual side of our relationship. In my heart I feel she is the for lack of other words "the experienced one". She was born and raised in church, even talking about doing as her best friend and making her a prayer room like in the movie War Room. Maybe at some point I will be able to say the above after marriage but to me she is the one helping lead me on my journey, helping me to move closer to God in my life.



Man you sound like the road on I walked a couple of years ago.


----------



## rjcruiser (Sep 28, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> Yes, it does. Would you use that verse to deprive me of growing more and more dependent upon Christ and Christ alone? Is Christ the author and finisher of our faith, or is it the church and other believers?



Not sure I can agree with you on the fact that somehow, by growing closer to the Church and other believers, you'll be deprived of growing more dependent on Christ.

I find that the more independent of other believers I get, the more apt I am to fall into temptation.  Accountability is a wonderful thing.

That being said, I can't imagine living in a place with no solid church around.  I understand that some may not have the luxury of a Bible believing/preaching church around.  I pray that you are given that opportunity by the Lord.



JB0704 said:


> This thread sure took on a new life.......Gem, I appreciate your thoughts.  I can't claim that there "is no good church" near me.  I haven't visited them all, and, until then, I can't say that.  However, I do feel I am where I need to be for various reasons.
> 
> As far as assembling with others, I am actively involved in other things which have me regularly around believers.  This is not dedicated worship time, but, I do plenty of "serving," more so than I probably would if I was in a church.  I also continue to give where I can, and where need exists.  So, I have not completely left "the body," I just do not belong to a local congregation.
> 
> I get a lot of pressure from friends about church.  But, are they going to abandon principle for convenience and entertainment as well?  Like so many others do?  People are so stinking shallow these days, to the point that it's not "cool" any more to actually apply beliefs to the system.  No........just go along with the crowd, nobody likes a "naysayer."



I agree with you to a point.  Some go to church simply because that is what they've always been taught.  They view it as a sin if they don't.  Our works are as filthy wrags....including going to church every time the door is open.

But...I think the NT example is to be involved in the local body of believers (aka Church).


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## Israel (Sep 28, 2015)

rjcruiser said:


> Not sure I can agree with you on the fact that somehow, by growing closer to the Church and other believers, you'll be deprived of growing more dependent on Christ.
> 
> I find that the more independent of other believers I get, the more apt I am to fall into temptation.  Accountability is a wonderful thing.
> 
> ...




That's a beautiful thing, right there.


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## gemcgrew (Sep 28, 2015)

Israel said:


> That's a beautiful thing, right there.


That is a beautiful thing and I appreciate Rj for it. In the meantime or the full time, Christ is sufficient. It is a great time of love for me. 

I do not want anybody to feel sorry for me. I wouldn't change a thing, even if I could.


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## groundhawg (Sep 28, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> Recently I have heard that a serious study was done by the Anglican Church in England, if I recall correctly, where they surveyed people in their communities regards church attendance.
> 
> Of the people who said they identified as Christians or believing in God, they found three identifiable  believing groups in the greater community.
> 
> ...




How does any of this help answer the OP question?

From the OP -  We don't attend church?
So my inlaws, who are hard core southern baptists, believe that we should attend their church and only their church. 

To take the story back, I have been raised non denominational where my wife was raised southern baptist. We are talking about the screaming preacher and hellfire brimstone type. When we got married, we agreed to alternate Sundays and it worked out just fine. Later on my wife decided through prayer and God that the baptist church was not where she needed to be spiritually. We have since been going to my church. 

Ever since then we have come under fire with her father mostly about how we are not involved in church. Little comments here and there about how we need to get back in church and put God back in our lives. We have had healthy debates as well as full blown fights over this. There seems to be little care about spiritual growth and more concern over filling a seat. It seems no matter how many times I state my position, it goes in one ear and out the other. 

Has anyone else dealt with this?


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## j_seph (Sep 28, 2015)

Buck Nasty said:


> Man you sound like the road on I walked a couple of years ago.


Hope that is a good indication cause this road I am on is absolutely amazing!


----------



## centerpin fan (Sep 28, 2015)

j_seph said:


> ... this road I am on is absolutely amazing!




Lemme guess:


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## 4HAND (Sep 28, 2015)

groundhawg said:


> How does any of this help answer the OP question?
> 
> From the OP -  We don't attend church?
> So my inlaws, who are hard core southern baptists, believe that we should attend their church and only their church.
> ...



Yes, post#30.

You can go to in laws church to please them & be miserable (&possibly wind up resenting them).
Or, ya'll can go to the church that is feeding you spiritually & be happy. Hopefully once the in laws see ya'll are established & happy they will be satisfied.


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## Israel (Sep 28, 2015)

groundhawg said:


> How does any of this help answer the OP question?
> 
> From the OP -  We don't attend church?
> So my inlaws, who are hard core southern baptists, believe that we should attend their church and only their church.
> ...



I can see where a "we" can get categorized, as this brother is perhaps experiencing from his in laws..."if you are not attending a church building (as perhaps is their position)...you are not fulfilling the Lord's calling of you"

Gordon  ( I believe) was simply pointing out a few of the seeming categories. 

Obviously, as this thread has shown, the ones "in" may wonder about the ones "not seen in" (or "not now in"), the ones not "seen in" may have certain concerns or experiences that may have some influence upon that path. Obviously, this sort of thread provokes many avenues of discussion, as in every circumstance it pertains to us. From the OP, it could be inferred that an argument was being made that "unless one is found attending a church building...they have not "God in their lives".


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## gordon 2 (Sep 28, 2015)

groundhawg said:


> How does any of this help answer the OP question?
> 
> From the OP -  We don't attend church?
> So my inlaws, who are hard core southern baptists, believe that we should attend their church and only their church.
> ...



I see your point. Yet by post 19 everything seemed settled on the original question and the tread turned to folk not attending and folk waiting on them to attend. Sorry if I derailed this tread,--my bad.


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## JB0704 (Sep 28, 2015)

groundhawg said:


> Has anyone else dealt with this?



Had it covered by the end of page 1.  I can post specific #'s, but it's a quick read.


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## JB0704 (Sep 28, 2015)

Israel said:


> Obviously, this sort of thread provokes many avenues of discussion, as in every circumstance it pertains to us.



Yup.  Even brought in some of the crowd from several years back discussin' things we've covered a time or two.......


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## rjcruiser (Sep 28, 2015)

JB0704 said:


> Had it covered by the end of page 1.  I can post specific #'s, but it's a quick read.



It's not like this is the "on topic " forum.


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## Israel (Sep 29, 2015)

opie44 said:


> So my inlaws, who are hard core southern baptists, believe that we should attend their church and only their church.
> 
> To take the story back, I have been raised non denominational where my wife was raised southern baptist.  We are talking about the screaming preacher and hellfire brimstone type.  When we got married, we agreed to alternate Sundays and it worked out just fine.  Later on my wife decided through prayer and God that the baptist church was not where she needed to be spiritually. We have since been going to my church.
> 
> ...



OFF TOPIC OFF TOPIC OFF TOPIC ALERT 
< RETURN TO YOUR HOMES AND REMAIN INDOORS>

I watch you all. And while I watch, I know someone watches me. More often, to me at least, what is said may be of less import (in the precise words) than why.

It has been my experience, if one ever needs to know who at work has had an operation, or a serious one, simply walk in an announce "I am facing some serious surgery".
Almost immediately one begins to hear..."Oh, yeah, I did too once...this is what happened"...or from some other "ooh ooh...see this scar here..."

Now, as watcher, I may wonder..."OK, why is the original declaration announced?" It could have been for sympathy...it could have been to let folks know they will need to take up some slack at work while they are off, it could have been any myriad of reasons. Till the asker of the question elaborates...it may not be fully clear.

"I am really scared"

or

"Do you think I should put off having my hair done?"

So, in regards to the "OFF TOPIC" matter...to be precise, if one were to only go by the OP, either not listening, or either not "mis" listening to all of it...then perhaps the only real responses should have been:

Yes. or, No.

But, lurking behind, or one might even say "glowing" behind...all of our words is this question, and not merely pertaining to this GON thingy "why am I here?"


----------



## gordon 2 (Sep 29, 2015)

rjcruiser said:


> It's not like this is the "on topic " forum.



I remember when, Woody's Spiritual Help and Religion Discussions  was relatively new,  and some would have frequent outbursts concerning staying on topic.

 Like interpreting scripture literally ( even the books of poetry), which was thought the be the only "correct" way by some church planters to go about things, staying on topic was just not happening.  It seemed evident it was not a discipline of saints, nor sinners, nor prophets, who could be all over the place,-- except perhaps for those who's politics meshed perfectly with their occupations and a rigid spiritual outlook.

 Those who's next business contract was as assured, by vigilance to the right politics,   by the next correct contact with scripture and church often had an issue with treads going off topic, in my view. It proved that on Woody's at least, for most in the end, in the sharing on the Spiritual Help and Discussion forums--  the churches they planted would just not do. 

Very few people now point out to treads being derailed on spiritual forums anywhere that I am aware of and I know I expect them to go off topic, compared to once before. The wind is a different gift to all and a stranger marksman. Church today means many things to many. 

Perhaps, maybe.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 29, 2015)

Just wanted to include this in the discussion since I just read it and it's "breaking news"....

From an interview with "tha Biebs" by some organization called Complex.  Clear articulation of why church attendence is not important in the life of Christian.

_"Like I said, you don’t need to go to church to be a Christian. If you go to Taco Bell, that doesn’t make you a taco."_

Play on playa...play on.  I think we can go ahead and lock this thread down now.  Justin has cleared it up for us.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 29, 2015)

Huntinfool said:


> Just wanted to include this in the discussion since I just read it and it's "breaking news"....
> 
> From an interview with "tha Biebs" by some organization called Complex.  Clear articulation of why church attendence is not important in the life of Christian.
> 
> ...



Good grief Charlie Brown!  Funny....


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Sep 29, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> I remember when, Woody's Spiritual Help and Religion Discussions  was relatively new,  and some would have frequent outbursts concerning staying on topic.
> 
> Like interpreting scripture literally ( even the books of poetry), which was thought the be the only "correct" way by some church planters to go about things, staying on topic was just not happening.  It seemed evident it was not a discipline of saints, nor sinners, nor prophets, who could be all over the place,-- except perhaps for those who's politics meshed perfectly with their occupations and a rigid spiritual outlook.
> 
> ...



Most all threads in all forums on GON are irrelevant now as they are all derailed, with the exception of the "On Topic Forum" and even those are suspect and subject to manipulation. 

What we can draw from this is, the entire site, via it's desire to please all while not serving specifically it's originally founded intent, has become irrelevant.


----------



## centerpin fan (Sep 29, 2015)

> _"Like I said, you don’t need to go to church to be a Christian. If you go to Taco Bell, that doesn’t make you a taco."_




The Stupid is strong in this one.


----------



## j_seph (Sep 29, 2015)

centerpin fan said:


> Lemme guess:


Pretty darn close!!!! Minus the cowardly lion, the tin man, the scarecrow, dorothy, and toto!!!


----------



## gordon 2 (Sep 29, 2015)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Most all threads in all forums on GON are irrelevant now as they are all derailed, with the exception of the "On Topic Forum" and even those are suspect and subject to manipulation.
> 
> What we can draw from this is, the entire site, via it's desire to please all while not serving specifically it's originally founded intent, has become irrelevant.



 It's originally founded intent according to Woody Coffee was to get himself more taxidermy business and to share passion regards hunting which included  spiritual and political components.

  There was a gravely felt concern back then, by members and  Woodrow to some extent that the Clinton administration was gona get the NRA and" our guns". And there were all kinds of fears within the forum membership that once again carpet baggers, foreigners,  and socialists were after "our way of life". 

In their minds many were still fighting in the Vietnam War, communists and in the Civil War. The passions of men were all over the place. Many were arm chair generals entrenched in first world war bunkers and the wars of their children unimaginable for being different their theirs and their fathers before them. And  some were just interested in the universal questions in difference between a .270 and a 30-06.

 Iraq( although felt), Libya, Syria, Putin, economic theft on a scale unimaginable then and trust in conservative economics, the new morally questionable crafts of political spin, the effects of immigration from the Rust Belt and the creep of Atheism as an american voice to be listened to...was far away.

Sorry you feel the forums are irrelevant bros.


----------



## EverGreen1231 (Sep 29, 2015)

opie44 said:


> So my inlaws, who are hard core southern baptists, believe that we should attend their church and only their church.
> 
> To take the story back, I have been raised non denominational where my wife was raised southern baptist.  We are talking about the screaming preacher and hellfire brimstone type.  When we got married, we agreed to alternate Sundays and it worked out just fine.  Later on my wife decided through prayer and God that the baptist church was not where she needed to be spiritually. We have since been going to my church.
> 
> ...



A garden can grow either weeds or roses. Either way it's growing, but only one way is satisfying. Your spirit can 'grow' into more than one thing. Make sure it's growing in the right way.

Going to church is important. We were told to assemble, and that much more as we see the day approaching. If you want to call it 'filling a pew', fine; but there still needs to be an assemblage of the believers. Whether this assembly is non-denominational or Baptist should depend on who's more scriptural. It would seem to me that'd be the ind-Baptists.

It seems a lot of people are wanting to find a church where they're 'comfortable' when they should be looking for just the opposite.


----------



## EverGreen1231 (Sep 29, 2015)

Huntinfool said:


> Just wanted to include this in the discussion since I just read it and it's "breaking news"....
> 
> From an interview with "tha Biebs" by some organization called Complex.  Clear articulation of why church attendence is not important in the life of Christian.
> 
> ...



He should stick to caterwaulin'.


----------



## EverGreen1231 (Sep 29, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> Providence has not afforded the opportunity.



You're here. I'd say that's a meeting of sorts.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Sep 29, 2015)

EverGreen1231 said:


> A garden can grow either weeds or roses. Either way it's growing, but only one way is satisfying. Your spirit can 'grow' into more than one thing. Make sure it's growing in the right way.
> 
> Going to church is important. We were told to assemble, and that much more as we see the day approaching. If you want to call it 'filling a pew', fine; but there still needs to be an assemblage of the believers. Whether this assembly is non-denominational or Baptist should depend on who's more scriptural. It would seem to me that'd be the ind-Baptists.
> 
> It seems a lot of people are wanting to find a church where they're 'comfortable' when they should be looking for just the opposite.


Church attendance is important, the problem lies in their (as in the American Universal Church) focus. The desire to grow better roses has come via GMO crop enhancement and toxic fertilizers. The "focus" is on how to bring "them" in. 

The focus should be on, "how to send them out".


----------



## Buck Nasty (Sep 29, 2015)

j_seph said:


> Hope that is a good indication cause this road I am on is absolutely amazing!



Oh yes!!!


----------



## groundhawg (Sep 29, 2015)

rjcruiser said:


> It's not like this is the "on topic " forum.



Fellow asked for help and insight and view points to share with his wife and in-laws.


----------



## groundhawg (Sep 29, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> It's originally founded intent according to Woody Coffee was to get himself more taxidermy business and to share passion regards hunting which included  spiritual and political components.
> 
> There was a gravely felt concern back then, by members and  Woodrow to some extent that the Clinton administration was gona get the NRA and" our guns". And there were all kinds of fears within the forum membership that once again carpet baggers, foreigners,  and socialists were after "our way of life".
> 
> ...



  About as relevant as this post.


----------



## EverGreen1231 (Sep 29, 2015)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Church attendance is important, the problem lies in their (as in the American Universal Church) focus. The desire to grow better roses has come via GMO crop enhancement and toxic fertilizers. The "focus" is on how to bring "them" in.
> 
> The focus should be on, "how to send them out".



Gotta get in to go out.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Sep 29, 2015)

I can't imagine a situation where I couldn't find a local church that would in some ways challenge me, inspire me and allow me to grow.  It is not like there are not a dozen choices within a 20 mile radius.  Surely to goodness there are churches around that have most of the same believe systems you do, and follow the Bible the way you read it.   The church I attend now is not perfect, and it never will be because it is made up of imperfect people trying to follow God as they see Him.  

Does the preacher sometimes say things that rub me the wrong way?  You betcha.  Does the music always suit me?  Nope.  Are there some folks there I bump heads with?  Shoot yeah.  One of them is my wife.

I guess where all this leads me is to the fact that none of us are perfect and we all need a savior.  Since I know that I am not perfect, I try to remember that about the other folks around me, and cut them some slack when I get grumped with them.  We all need more of God's grace in our lives, and perhaps dealing with some of the folks at church is God's way of working His grace in my life.


----------



## 4HAND (Sep 29, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I can't imagine a situation where I couldn't find a local church that would in some ways challenge me, inspire me and allow me to grow.  It is not like there are not a dozen choices within a 20 mile radius.  Surely to goodness there are churches around that have most of the same believe systems you do, and follow the Bible the way you read it.   The church I attend now is not perfect, and it never will be because it is made up of imperfect people trying to follow God as they see Him.
> 
> Does the preacher sometimes say things that rub me the wrong way?  You betcha.  Does the music always suit me?  Nope.  Are there some folks there I bump heads with?  Shoot yeah.  One of them is my wife.
> 
> I guess where all this leads me is to the fact that none of us are perfect and we all need a savior.  Since I know that I am not perfect, I try to remember that about the other folks around me, and cut them some slack when I get grumped with them.  We all need more of God's grace in our lives, and perhaps dealing with some of the folks at church is God's way of working His grace in my life.



Well said, sir.


----------



## rjcruiser (Sep 29, 2015)

groundhawg said:


> Fellow asked for help and insight and view points to share with his wife and in-laws.



And he got it.

and then the thread kept going....discussion was had...thoughts were brought to light and debate ensued.

Is there something wrong with that?  Isn't that the purpose of this forum?  Spiritual Discussion and Study?


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 29, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> The church I attend now is not perfect, and it never will be because it is made up of imperfect people trying to follow God as they see Him.



OFten, dismissing a person's quarrels as being so simple is the catalyst that leads them out the door.

Some folks don't like music, or preachin' style, or personalities, or the drapes.  These are superficial items that are likely just reasons to go when a person already had their foot out the door.

My issues with the church are institutional, not the dismissal of anything based on the "imperfect people" perspective.  I'm sorry, but I can't attend a church that does not have a solid biblical foundation for why it is structured the way it is.  I can't attend a church where they make up some non-sense about following a head pastor's vision.  

That's why I left..........the reason I never went back is that most folks don't care.  They say "well we are here to serve," or "the church is made of imperfect people."

Would they be so dismissive of a church with a pastor who was married to a dude? Just because they enjoyed working the nursery?  I can throw all sorts of hypotheticals out that would cause a mass exodus from a local congregation..........but, the things that don't have the direct impact, such as leadership structure, which turn it into a faith based entertainment business instead of a church, are over looked.

Fellas like me are "naysayers," because we believe in things.  I'm still idealistic enough to think beliefs are cool, and going along to get along is what will ultimately kill the local church........if it hasn't already.


----------



## Israel (Sep 29, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I can't imagine a situation where I couldn't find a local church that would in some ways challenge me, inspire me and allow me to grow.  It is not like there are not a dozen choices within a 20 mile radius.  Surely to goodness there are churches around that have most of the same believe systems you do, and follow the Bible the way you read it.   The church I attend now is not perfect, and it never will be because it is made up of imperfect people trying to follow God as they see Him.
> 
> Does the preacher sometimes say things that rub me the wrong way?  You betcha.  Does the music always suit me?  Nope.  Are there some folks there I bump heads with?  Shoot yeah.  One of them is my wife.
> 
> I guess where all this leads me is to the fact that none of us are perfect and we all need a savior.  Since I know that I am not perfect, I try to remember that about the other folks around me, and cut them some slack when I get grumped with them.  We all need more of God's grace in our lives, and perhaps dealing with some of the folks at church is God's way of working His grace in my life.



Kinda it, ain't it?

Even and especially to the OP. See, you don't need to be in a church building to learn we need grace...but, it could sure be a help. What's the conundrum in the OP...the contention...the "issue"? What, at very least is expressed?

"Unless you are specifically going to "my" church (So seems the FIL to be saying) you don't have God in your lives" ...pretty strong on the face of it.
Although the thread took off in various directions as to attendance, non attendance...this brother plainly states he is "going to church"...just not the one the FIL prefers (or at least seems to by the OP).

Then, as you say, even "in" a church...there are plenty of opportunities to discover the need for grace...where it might even seem "gee, isn't this where we are all on the same page...all the time? (as the perhaps naive might expect)"
Grace.

I would ask this...but am just as comfortable in simply stating it. A follower of Jesus Christ is ALWAYS going to be presented with opportunities to appropriate grace in a greater measure, apprehend grace in a greater measure, seek grace in a greater measure. It's simply "in the life". (And...thanks be to God!)

This comes not simply for the purpose of God's desire to try us, but to provoke us...to lay hold of something he knows will be a delight to us. God himself delights in mercy...he don't get tired of sharing it, nor is he any less delighted...when we learn the delight of it. We wrestle, we struggle...maybe like this brother...who although he hasn't said it...may find it a rather fiery trial in dealing with a part of the body that he is experiencing as (big perhaps) perhaps someone trying to dominate him. Hold, as it were...dominion over his faith. (If you ain't here...where "I say" you ain't got God!)
Who of us does not either recognize the sting of this in the hearing...or the shame of this in the saying...or having been one who held that opinion?
Now, it's true...we have only heard one side...I don't know the FIL. So...who of us really knows the situation but the Lord? And I am not even going to imply the OP is less than candid, all we know is that two folks are at an appearing impasse. Enough so that one was provoked to lay it out before others (I assume) he must consider as brothers. 

It sure appears a sincere and rather desperate plea for a help. And the brother has shown grace and gratitude in his replies.

We're all in a really funny place. Funny as in...funny. We can't escape our need for grace...because God won't let us. In the church building, in the home (when the FIL brings "his" church into it), on here, at work, driving, fishing or praying, reading the paper or the scriptures, preaching or having a beer.
The funny thing is there's ALWAYS gonna be at least one willing to tell us "you ain't doing it right". But...there's only one with the authority to tell us that, and we won't know if it's him, Mrs Griswold's painful arthritis speaking, or the devil. We're gonna need grace.
A brother I love used to say this:

"I love grace...because I love where I have to go to get it"

Pressed are we...and...thankfully so.


I so love being right. I loved it so much I was sure it was sending me straight to he11. And I have learned...or rather, am just beginning to learn I can be right anytime I need to be. But, the thing is I only ever really know it's true when God says it.

"Oh, Lord... I really really need mercy"

"You're right...

here...take a look at what I've got for you"

Ha ha ha! No wonder he's the God of all joy!


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## NE GA Pappy (Sep 29, 2015)

JB,  you are right that the superficial stuff is what a lot of people use as an excuse to leave a church, but there is usually some other under currents that is pushing them out.  

What I was trying to say in my post was that surely there is a church that you can agree with most of the doctrine being taught there, and learn to tolerate the minor differences that you might have with them.   Are you saying that no where in you area is a church that has a leadership structure that you believe is biblical?
If that is the case, I would sure love to hear you delve into what you believe to be the correct structure for the church.


Israel,

I have found out in the past few years just how dependent I am on God's grace and mercy. As I discover all the more how dependent I am for grace, it becomes easier for me to show grace to others.  My pastor has the best definition of grace I believe I have heard...   Grace = God's power in me, doing for me, what I can not do for myself.


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## M80 (Sep 29, 2015)

JB0704 said:


> OFten, dismissing a person's quarrels as being so simple is the catalyst that leads them out the door.
> 
> Some folks don't like music, or preachin' style, or personalities, or the drapes.  These are superficial items that are likely just reasons to go when a person already had their foot out the door.
> 
> ...



I've done told you the church im at is the best church in the world. If someone dosnt think that about their church they don't need to be there. The Lord has put me right where he wants me to be and if you would seek The Lord he will put you in the right church also. 

Now the bible says in acts that they where in one mind and one accord and The Lord added daily as such be saved. This is my goal as a pastor. The bible also says let us consider one another to provoke unto love and good works. This is what we should be doing and this is what I strive to do.


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## JB0704 (Sep 29, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Are you saying that no where in you area is a church that has a leadership structure that you believe is biblical?



No.  I said in a previous post that there are plenty I have yet to visit.  But, that's not my point.  That was an example I use often, because it is so often overlooked.  Seriously, pastors set themselves up as popes these days, and entire congregations go along with it.

I still am going to visit M80's church, and I will also swing by centerpin's church as well.  There is another one close by that has a wonderful man as the head pastor.........but, I just don't feel like whatever it is I am doing is finished yet.   

I had enough.  I went to church the vast majority of my life.  I keep turning one thought over and over, and I can't get past it...........if I put all the bad I have experienced due to church in one bucket, and then put all the good in another, the bad is much, much heavier.  At some point a person has to step back and recognize whats not working, and that's where I am.


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## JB0704 (Sep 29, 2015)

mwilliams80 said:


> Now the bible says in acts that they where in one mind and one accord and The Lord added daily as such be saved. This is my goal as a pastor. The bible also says let us consider one another to provoke unto love and good works. This is what we should be doing and this is what I strive to do.



And, honestly, that sounds great.  I have no doubt you guys got a good thing going.  I wish I could express my thoughts better.  

FYI, I made my last post before I saw this.  I am gonna visit your church.  Sorry I didn't make the event, I was out of town doing an anniversary trip with my wife.


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## M80 (Sep 29, 2015)

JB0704 said:


> No.  I said in a previous post that there are plenty I have yet to visit.  But, that's not my point.  That was an example I use often, because it is so often overlooked.  Seriously, pastors set themselves up as popes these days, and entire congregations go along with it.
> 
> I still am going to visit M80's church, and I will also swing by centerpin's church as well.  There is another one close by that has a wonderful man as the head pastor.........but, I just don't feel like whatever it is I am doing is finished yet.
> 
> I had enough.  I went to church the vast majority of my life.  I keep turning one thought over and over, and I can't get past it...........if I put all the bad I have experienced due to church in one bucket, and then put all the good in another, the bad is much, much heavier.  At some point a person has to step back and recognize whats not working, and that's where I am.



The Lord never said it would be roses and mountain tips all the time. I could have walked away from church in 2004 but you know, The Lord has been just to good to this old worthless country boy.  Let's see

1.) a eternal home in heaven 
2.) a wonderful wonderful family
3.) a wonderful wife, children and a wonderful home. 
4.) he has allowed me to live another day
5.) not one time have I made myself breathe typing this and oh yea my hearts beating because he makes it beat. 

The list just keeps going, I couldn't type enough or say enough. It's the least I could do is go to church because he has done so much for me. People look at church the wrong way. I go to worship The Lord and feed spiritually. I could do all this at home and study my bible but worshipping The Lord where true worship is in spirit and in truth is better than anything this world has to offer. I believe I'll just keep going Sunday morning, evening and Wednesday night. I can't get enough of it. Kinda like the family in acts where it says they addicted themselves.


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## M80 (Sep 29, 2015)

JB0704 said:


> And, honestly, that sounds great.  I have no doubt you guys got a good thing going.  I wish I could express my thoughts better.
> 
> FYI, I made my last post before I saw this.  I am gonna visit your church.  Sorry I didn't make the event, I was out of town doing an anniversary trip with my wife.



No problem, I know you'll come one day, I just hope it isn't like my one friend who has been telling me this for 9 years now but I never give up.


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## NE GA Pappy (Sep 29, 2015)

JB0704 said:


> I had enough.  I went to church the vast majority of my life.  I keep turning one thought over and over, and I can't get past it...........if I put all the bad I have experienced due to church in one bucket, and then put all the good in another, the bad is much, much heavier.  At some point a person has to step back and recognize whats not working, and that's where I am.




Yep, pain and hurt can sure be hard, hard things to get over.  I can tell you, I have had people in the church really hurt me, and I bet you I have hurt others also.  It has been close to 20 years ago now, but I was in a church and there was a situation that just tore my heart out. After I thought I had gotten over that, it happened again in another church 12 years ago.  I stayed out of churches for a year or so, and then started back on a sporadic basis.  Lord knows that it took me years to get back to where I was even close to where I was at with God 20 years ago.  One thing I learned through this was that anger is a cancer that will eat you alive from inside out.  The only way to deal with it is to forgive the person that hurt you and forget it.  

It is hard to ever trust people again after you have been put through the wringer by them.  I don't know that I can ever trust those individuals again, and I certainly would not look forward to being put in that position.  All I can do when faced with those situations is to remember I chose to forgive them, and let God handle it for me.  

One thing for sure that doesn't help.  Isolation.  God didn't create us to be loners, in either our physical lives or our spiritual lives.  Just as God said it was not good for Adam to be alone and created Eve, it is not good for believers to be isolated island unto themselves.

God bless.


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## gemcgrew (Sep 29, 2015)

A believer is never alone.


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## centerpin fan (Sep 29, 2015)

mwilliams80 said:


> I've done told you the church im at is the best church in the world.



It only got 67% on Rotten Tomatoes.


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## gemcgrew (Sep 29, 2015)

centerpin fan said:


> It only got 67% on Rotten Tomatoes.


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## Israel (Sep 30, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> JB,  you are right that the superficial stuff is what a lot of people use as an excuse to leave a church, but there is usually some other under currents that is pushing them out.
> 
> What I was trying to say in my post was that surely there is a church that you can agree with most of the doctrine being taught there, and learn to tolerate the minor differences that you might have with them.   Are you saying that no where in you area is a church that has a leadership structure that you believe is biblical?
> If that is the case, I would sure love to hear you delve into what you believe to be the correct structure for the church.
> ...



I am, in whatever part seeing...for me, anyway...it's everything. More often than not of late grace appears in a situation where I not only think I can do something (for myself, even for others)...but also have every right to.

Sometimes grace appears as a very strong hand slapped over my mouth, unbidden, and, even at the time...seemingly very unwelcome. A thing that keeps me from acting according...(what I only can see later as me) to me. (Even at those times when I am sure "the Lord has something to say "about this").

Like a wild a** I much need to be bridled.
What feels so wrong in so many instances...I later come to see was precisely so I could see the Lord work...where once I thought "you sure need my help here Jesus".


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## Mako22 (Oct 1, 2015)

opie44 said:


> We are talking about the screaming preacher and hellfire brimstone type.



Southern Baptist? Yeah LOL right! I doubt you have ever heard any real fire and brimstone preaching.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 3, 2015)

I'm bored... so I will jump in where I tried not to. I am not in church. The fact is, you would not want people like me in your church. I used to be there every time the doors were opened, then got my own key. The problem with me  is not that I can't be very nice, but I can't seem to overlook the things that "church" does. Where most people don't see it, you don't want me pointing it out.


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## Israel (Oct 4, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> I'm bored... so I will jump in where I tried not to. I am not in church. The fact is, you would not want people like me in your church. I used to be there every time the doors were opened, then got my own key. The problem with me  is not that I can't be very nice, but I can't seem to overlook the things that "church" does. Where most people don't see it, you don't want me pointing it out.



Interesting.


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## welderguy (Oct 4, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> I'm bored... so I will jump in where I tried not to. I am not in church. The fact is, you would not want people like me in your church. I used to be there every time the doors were opened, then got my own key. The problem with me  is not that I can't be very nice, but I can't seem to overlook the things that "church" does. Where most people don't see it, you don't want me pointing it out.



I've found that usually when I get in the wrong spirit of finding fault in everyone else,it only backfires and winds up condemning me instead.Because I'm no better.I like how Paul put it in Coll.3:13:
"Forebearing one another and forgiving one another;if any man have a quarrel against any,even as Christ forgave you,so also do ye."


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## JB0704 (Oct 4, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> The problem with me  is not that I can't be very nice, but I can't seem to overlook the things that "church" does. Where most people don't see it, you don't want me pointing it out.



I get tired of folks excusing those things (not sure if we are talking about the same things, but similar concept).

They don't want to pointed out because they don't care.  Knowing it won't lead anybody to action.  They just get mad at the messenger.  I got fed up with it.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 4, 2015)

I never have issue with people. I do great with people. It's the paying a local no name singer $1500 to come sing 4 songs, yet not willing to do anything if it does not involve keeping the show going, or buying bricks for a bigger show house. Everything is done for men to see, especially the church.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 4, 2015)

I was asked to head up a men's group a long time ago. We met on monday nights. We grew from 4 to 4 groups of 4. We enjoyed the fellowship, was excited about it. Our wives decided that during this time, they could meet. Meet at my house. The preacher found out about the plan and insisted we have his wife's sister whom was studying to be a preacher/missionary, lead there meeting. This particular woman was not like any of the wives and way to serious. Our wives just wanted to hang out while we had our meeting, at my house, 2 minutes from the church. I then wondered why the preacher would force such a thing when it was going to derail the ladies plan. There plan went from exciting to no more in only a short while. I wondered about that but trusted my preacher. Then the mens group, we were really having a great bible study. All of us never having taken interest in the bible, had found a passion for reading and discussing what we had read. And then, he stopped it. What? To my surprise, two weeks later, he wanted to start again. So we did. Our groups being about the same. And then he stopped it. What? And then we restarted again???? Never any reason for stopping us even though we expressed our desire to continue, just that we had to stop, of which we all were left wondering. This happening over two years until  I received in the mail a book put out by our association which had church statics. Each church recording how many small group meetings they had during the year. Then I saw the motive in this preachers madness. He was building a resume. Everytime he stopped and started us, his counter went up. From that point on, what no one realized, I saw clearly how he manipulating everything for his own honor and praise. Once I realized it, it was like I was no longer blind. He was a corrupt man, able to manipulate people under the guise of "God's man". I could tell you stories that would have you boiling, yet no one saw it. They just assumed God's man was not capable of such. I try not to look through these glasses at all churches or preachers. The story I told was just one portion of a ten year span. But it has affected me greatly. Not every preacher is like that or every church. Most are genuinely seeking to please God.


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## JB0704 (Oct 4, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> ....... It's the paying a local no name singer $1500 to come sing 4 songs, yet not willing to do anything if it does not involve keeping the show going, or buying bricks for a bigger show house. Everything is done for men to see, especially the church.



Then the issue is people.  The congregation that sits by and lets it happen is just as guilty, if not more.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 4, 2015)

JB0704 said:


> Then the issue is people.  The congregation that sits by and lets it happen is just as guilty, if not more.


Mixed on this.... I think it would be the leaders. The flock should not be concerned with the agenda. They should assume it in good hands. To much input by the people and you can't conform to all the different opinions. My time being a leader was very frustrating. I was the odd ball who felt as though "maybe it's me who is the problem"


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 4, 2015)

Being out of church, I am concerned about my children, now teenagers. I have studied and determined what it is that I believe and am committed to it. But my children are not motivated, being out of church, to study what the bible says, enough to stand firm, on solid ground. This concerns me.


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## NE GA Pappy (Oct 4, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> But my children are not motivated, being out of church, to study what the bible says, enough to stand firm, on solid ground. This concerns me.



and well it should.  There is nothing that says they won't struggle with their beliefs even if they are heavily involve in a church group, but if they are not involved in a church group, this is almost a given.


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## M80 (Oct 4, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> Being out of church, I am concerned about my children, now teenagers. I have studied and determined what it is that I believe and am committed to it. But my children are not motivated, being out of church, to study what the bible says, enough to stand firm, on solid ground. This concerns me.



I'm glad it does bother you because you are the leader of the household. Being burned in church like you was breaks my heart as a pastor. I want to help and be an encouragement to the members of our church. I just don't understand how some so called preachers can be this way. I guess I've been sheltered all my life being part of the best churches around. I've been burned bad to once in my life in church. Could have got out but The Lord never has done nothing wrong to me so I still have a desire in my heart to go faithfully to the house of The Lord. I'll be praying The Lord pricks your heart and you seek him to put you in the right church. What got my attention in your post was his wife's sister was going to be a preacher. Major red flags come up there. Find you an old fashion bible believing church where you can worship The Lord in spirit and in the truth. God bless you my friend and will be praying.


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## clayservant (Oct 9, 2015)

well my two cents as a minister...............I would never go to a church that yells at me or just preaches salvation only. once you get saved you need to learn HOW TO WALK .


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 10, 2015)

clayservant said:


> well my two cents as a minister...............I would never go to a church that yells at me or just preaches salvation only. once you get saved you need to learn HOW TO WALK .


I think an interesting discussion would be this topic. I am to busy to keep it going. Wish someone else would. Can the church teach you how to walk? I would be on the opposite side. I came from a church where the pastor tried to teach people, everything... how to raise kids, when to spank, when to let them date, etc, etc. How to do everything. The arrogance in it was that he thought he was the most qualified to teach people how to act. I think it tramples the new covenant and glory of the Holy Spirit. But the conversation would be interesting because I realize that I often need to find moderation from the extreme


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## gordon 2 (Oct 11, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> I think an interesting discussion would be this topic. I am to busy to keep it going. Wish someone else would. Can the church teach you how to walk? I would be on the opposite side. I came from a church where the pastor tried to teach people, everything... how to raise kids, when to spank, when to let them date, etc, etc. How to do everything. The arrogance in it was that he thought he was the most qualified to teach people how to act. I think it tramples the new covenant and glory of the Holy Spirit. But the conversation would be interesting because I realize that I often need to find moderation from the extreme




My leaning post on this is perhaps like yours. The whole point of the Good News is that all things are new, especially that man does not teach man anymore but rather God himself teaches directly.

If this is to happen for the Church ( the gatherings of the faithful in worship)  it seems to me that the Church must be at least the mystical body of Christ as Paul explains it perhaps. Teaching has to come from more than one person's charisma and anointing or a single person's terry with and understanding of the Holy Spirit. The HS indwells in all the baptized in unseen degrees perhaps.

There is a fine line between pastors preaching or any saint's testimony of their unique life experiences, individual and social, as examples of walking in the  spirit, and the walk itself where Christ is present at their every step. The Christ I know is surrounded by all the saints and not just my pastor.  And I am not the first kid on the block to have the HS as a teacher. 

For example, it is easy for a pastor to preach on what scripture says regards marital problems especially if he is hip deep in them himself. He, or anyone else, should not assume that in this regard that the simplest saint in the room to which he ministers to regard marriage, might be a mightier example and minister to him.

In Christ all things are possible, perhaps.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 11, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> My leaning post on this is perhaps like yours. The whole point of the Good News is that all things are new, especially that man does not teach man anymore but rather God himself teaches directly.
> 
> If this is to happen for the Church ( the gatherings of the faithful in worship)  it seems to me that the Church must be at least the mystical body of Christ as Paul explains it perhaps. Teaching has to come from more than one person's charisma and anointing or a single person's terry with and understanding of the Holy Spirit. The HS indwells in all the baptized in unseen degrees perhaps.
> 
> ...


Thinking of this, it recalls to mind..... stand firm... spur one another on toward love and good works..... fellowship..... Originally, I likely sounded as if the church teaches nothing. I don't actually believe it to that extreme, just thinking that the conversation will prompt me to think it through better. I would like to observe the discussion of those who believe the church does teach things like, raising kids, etc. I would hope I could prompt the discussion without sounding as if I were arguing my point. I always fear that is how I am perceived


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## gordon 2 (Oct 11, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> Thinking of this, it recalls to mind..... stand firm... spur one another on toward love and good works..... fellowship..... Originally, I likely sounded as if the church teaches nothing. I don't actually believe it to that extreme, just thinking that the conversation will prompt me to think it through better. I would like to observe the discussion of those who believe the church does teach things like, raising kids, etc. I would hope I could prompt the discussion without sounding as if I were arguing my point. I always fear that is how I am perceived



Well, first off my church teaches that the union of a male and female is not worldly and what my church teaches on this union is that it needs to strive to be saintly and to be a saintly example to children as they grow up. In this way the love of Christ is witnessed to children. So what is to be searched for in scripture is Christ, as opposed to rules. And what is to be preached or witnessed is Christ as opposed to the wisdom within the Mosaic covenant. Christ and the Spirit of Christ is what the church strives to teach as the way to raise a family. This is not always easy to learn.

I'm am sure others have differing experiences.


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## JB0704 (Oct 11, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> They should assume it in good hands.



Disagree.  Doing so allows for non-sense, and they become complicit via blind support.  The hand's as important as the eye as important as the foot sorta thing.


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## Israel (Oct 12, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> I think an interesting discussion would be this topic. I am to busy to keep it going. Wish someone else would. Can the church teach you how to walk? I would be on the opposite side. I came from a church where the pastor tried to teach people, everything... how to raise kids, when to spank, when to let them date, etc, etc. How to do everything. The arrogance in it was that he thought he was the most qualified to teach people how to act. I think it tramples the new covenant and glory of the Holy Spirit. But the conversation would be interesting because I realize that I often need to find moderation from the extreme



What is taught is always and only by example. What we cannot demonstrate in life, becomes only an embarrassment to us, as it must, if we think "our own" words carry any eternal weight.
I speak not as one who has attained anything, but just one who knows what embarrassment is.


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## gordon 2 (Oct 12, 2015)

Israel said:


> What is taught is always and only by example. What we cannot demonstrate in life, becomes only an embarrassment to us, as it must, if we think "our own" words carry any eternal weight.
> I speak not as one who has attained anything, but just one who knows what embarrassment is.



Could you explain in a bit more detail what you mean by "What is taught is always and only by example."

What is this about? To teach by example?

Did not Paul say to some congregation that it was OK for them to view him as an example in that they could imitate him? He Paul was their example.

15For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. 16Therefore I exhort you, be imitators of me.  1 Corinthians 4:16

And how can it be reconciled in Matthew with what Paul says here?

But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9"Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10"Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.… Matthew 23:9


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## Israel (Oct 12, 2015)

And the word became flesh.  

"before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?"

Till then...it may be words...even great words...wonderful and wholly agreeable words we cannot deny the wisdom of.

But, "a body thou hast prepared for me"...and Jesus really died. In our sight. For us. Greater love has no man than this...yet...there is a greater love than man has...to lay down his life...for his enemies.

"And you -- once being alienated, and enemies in the mind, in the evil works, yet now did he reconcile"

Jesus didn't die for me when I was his friend.

For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him...

How to "show" this, this manifestation of what I believe...many here have helped with, in far more than word. They have "loved me"...not by telling me they love me...but by speaking truth to me, at a cost I now recognize in some measure.
And not by telling me "you need to be more kind"...but by being kind to me...when I wasn't.

Yes, Paul was able to say to his beloved children...The things you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.

For he followed diligently He of whom was written:

In my former book, Theophilus, 
I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach

His death set his seal in blood to his words. His resurrection set God's seal to His being both Lord and Christ.

And I have not yet striven to the shedding of blood, so I am worthy of no attention. And if by God's grace I find myself made able...then... infinitely less attention is its perfection.
So...any attention at all, even now...is pure grace immeasurable among you.


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## BAR308 (Oct 26, 2015)

NOWHERE, did Jesus ever command... "go to church". But He did have LOTS of other commands. so WHY would a command He NEVER gave... be MORE important than ALL of the commands that He DID give...???

the reason why "going to church" is SO critical to 'christianity'... is that the false churches have taken over... and they want you in bondage to their 'flavor' of religion... thats why all baptists say you should be baptist... all lutherans say you should be lutheran... all pentecostals say you should be pentecostal.. etc etc etc...

well, if we THINK about this... none of those 'flavors' of christianity were around in Jesus' day. NONE. even tho all of them will say they go back to Jesus's day... hogwash. none of them do.

Jesus is looking for folks to keep HIS commands... not those of some man who stands behind a podium demanding you to attend HIS church for salvation... he wants you to attend HIS church so you can put YOUR money in HIS basket... so his kids will have a nice college education... you know like HARVARD... and he can drive a Benz instead of a yugo.

anyway... read the Words in Red (Bible)... that belong to Jesus and KEEP them...  thats how we love Jesus... "if ye love Me... keep My words"... right?

forget about 'churchianity'... its so far from Jesus that if Jesus walked in their church... they would run Him out of there... peace.


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