# Purpose of the tower of Babel.



## hobbs27 (Dec 17, 2016)

I listened to John Walton speak a little on this yesterday  and he made a point that was very interesting.  As we all know the story,  it has always been taught to me the tower was so man could reach heaven... Walton says man was building the tower so God could come down to them.
 This changes the view of a few things I believe.  What say you?


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## gemcgrew (Dec 17, 2016)

I understand it as an act of rebellion. An accursed people building a place of refuge. They did not want to be scattered.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 17, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> I understand it as an act of rebellion. An accursed people building a place of refuge. They did not want to be scattered.



 I agree,  but what rebellion are you referring  to?


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## gemcgrew (Dec 17, 2016)

God's judgement of Ham.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 17, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> I listened to John Walton speak a little on this yesterday  and he made a point that was very interesting.  As we all know the story,  it has always been taught to me the tower was so man could reach heaven... Walton says man was building the tower so God could come down to them.
> This changes the view of a few things I believe.  What say you?



Is this not the same thing : Reaching for heaven and God coming down via man's understanding(s) in that man tries to isolate the "way" by study of all the ways in an attempt to take out what is carnal, but infact the whole enterprise gets more carnal as the tower grows. The source of reaching heaven and God reaching man is God's grace; it is the foundation of life.  No man made tower regardless of foundation, (  man's declared and good intentions such as the will to provide for the great commission in the Christian context is an equal to Devine grace.) 

Personally I believe that Christians today have their Tower of Babble. They have built it and continue to add to it, not unlike the motivations of the peoples of old covenants. The solid trusses and beams of our tower can be seen in the many different Christians sects if not outright cults who anchor their platforms in our cities and towns, towers upon towers, and coffer towers sometimes three separate on the same street and all with their spin on His grace and what is in substance carnal-- for preaching fear as a motivation equal to a charity from Him.

And personally I wonder sometimes if the bible alone citizenry are especially vulnerable to the enterprises needed to built towers. Often being the accusers of works  as carnal and yet not hiding the efforts needed to "study" scripture and "scripture alone" as the "word of God"  to the extent of declaring Christianities totally at odds or contrary with anything declared by the apostles regards grace.

For example it is recorded that:

 Quote{John Calvin in his Readings on the Prophet Daniel, a book of 1561, in which he had argued that when kings disobey God, they "automatically abdicate their worldly power" - a change from his views in earlier works that even ungodly kings should be obeyed.} End quote. From:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Bartholomew's_Day_massacre

This very subject, was often made evident in the past presidential elections or in our times from saints who spoke from both sides of their mouths making themselves at some level of their towers or soap box, all the time speaking from a declared especial understanding of the will of God, His grace and the fearful prospects dependent on various understanding of the purpose of their God's wrath.

And speaking of wrath and its purpose,I understand now that's what spiritual towers are for at least in part. They are part of God's wrath... to get believers , the faithful and non-believers ( sinners) to reconsider on the first motivators of life and death. Now what tower is in my head as I type this, anyone's charity is my correction... and forgive my trespass.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 17, 2016)

So, what was Abraham called from? A religious system where man gets to God. I am rusty on this without reading before I speak. I do not have my bible with me. Abraham was called out. Called where? He was not told, only to walk by faith. And he went. The father of our faith. The same thing we are called from. God promised him that he would "be with him"  rather than he could build his worth to him. He promised, I will make a name for you, as opposed to him being known by the city that settled in a location, having his name. And you will reap fruit you did not plant. Meaning the fruits of the spirit given, not obtained. Abraham had never seen this "land" his journey would be by faith and not by sight. He went, not knowing where he was going. His "journey", spiritual journey, was that God would work in him, rather than man work to him. Religion is total Babel. So many denominations, beliefs, etc. But among the mess, there are those who are called out.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 17, 2016)

1gr8bldr said:


> So, what was Abraham called from? A religious system where man gets to God. I am rusty on this without reading before I speak. I do not have my bible with me. Abraham was called out. Called where? He was not told, only to walk by faith. And he went. The father of our faith. The same thing we are called from. God promised him that he would "be with him"  rather than he could build his worth to him. He promised, I will make a name for you, as opposed to him being known by the city that settled in a location, having his name. And you will reap fruit you did not plant. Meaning the fruits of the spirit given, not obtained. Abraham had never seen this "land" his journey would be by faith and not by sight. He went, not knowing where he was going. His "journey", spiritual journey, was that God would work in him, rather than man work to him. Religion is total Babel. So many denominations, beliefs, etc. But among the mess, there are those who are called out.



Good Points. However since faith is what is generated by God does it follow that for the faithful it means to be called out of organized religion?  Or does it follow that the "generation of faith"  is to be called out of religion? Or-- is it called in? I would suggest that the "generation of faith" our generation that dates back to Abraham and before ( example would be Noah) is called out of the world not religion. 

It seems to me that God has used religion to His purpose of nurture and teaching both within our covenant and within the one most previous to it.

Why did the early Christians assemble for the apostles' supper, for example? Why did they hold worship and counsels? Was it to further understanding and commonality or to confuse and bring about babble? I personally think it was the first.

Saints are called into the Church or to the religion-cult of its origins and not out of it. It is true that for the tower of denominations and for the lone rangers from them, Christians can disagree what those origins are and thus the babble.

But Saints are called into the church... not out. A babble would be a polemic ( a strong verbal or written attack on someone or something)  from religious or denominational- non-denominational bias or point of view without regard to charity or mercy and the  possibility that one just might be in error as to the love of God...which is the life of the faithful.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 17, 2016)

Here's John Walton explaining in a short summary.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 17, 2016)

I probably use the term "religion" incorrectly, or differently than others. I use it in a negative way. Similar to the way Jesus was opposed to the "religious".  In my use of it, man tries to change his nature through discipline and teaching. Ultimately proud of what they have accomplished. Rather than as Paul said, by the grace of God I am what I am. All that I have accomplished is rubbish in view of what Christ has done. Where our radical change is not through discipline or teaching but rather through grace we eargely await through the Spirit for the righteousness for which we hope.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 17, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Here's John Walton explaining in a short summary.



We are all equally temples of the Holy Spirit, but as to gifts we are not all the same. It is when we pool our gifts as Church and for our feasting there at the Lord's table, and by prayer and teaching that the presence of God comes to our communion with Him and which is also His with us.

It is more than His witness recorded in the sacred books to which an individual can be present ; it is a witness to His life in all, which is present to us all through the Church--the Church not made by hands.


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## Israel (Dec 18, 2016)

A man may taste the salvation of God wrought in Jesus Christ to be made manifest through His Church, no? He might _even see_ and _taste_ in others a thing of which, when mentioned, these others may be blithely unaware is there. They see one thing _of themselves_...and yet, through them, Christ makes Himself known.

A man might come to understand, were he to consider this, that salvation then, is best (perhaps only?) the ministration of God working always according to what He alone sees, and this, in that peculiar sense, never according to what men may think they see of themselves...or even what could be called their will or effort (especially in _their own best sense_) to glorify the Lord.

"You have only a little strength, but you have kept My word and not denied My name..."


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## hobbs27 (Dec 18, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> We are all equally temples of the Holy Spirit, but as to gifts we are not all the same. It is when we pool our gifts as Church and for our feasting there at the Lord's table, and by prayer and teaching that the presence of God comes to our communion with Him and which is also His with us.
> 
> It is more than His witness recorded in the sacred books to which an individual can be present ; it is a witness to His life in all, which is present to us all through the Church--the Church not made by hands.




See.. They didn't have the church not made by hands.  Jesus built that church.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 18, 2016)

Israel said:


> A man may taste the salvation of God wrought in Jesus Christ to be made manifest through His Church, no? He might _even see_ and _taste_ in others a thing of which, when mentioned, these others may be blithely unaware is there. They see one thing _of themselves_...and yet, through them, Christ makes Himself known.
> 
> A man might come to understand, were he to consider this, that salvation then, is best (perhaps only?) the ministration of God working always according to what He alone sees, and this, in that peculiar sense, never according to what men may think they see of themselves...or even what could be called their will or effort (especially in _their own best sense_) to glorify the Lord.
> 
> "You have only a little strength, but you have kept My word and not denied My name..."



Towers give light but they perhaps don't create it?


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## gordon 2 (Dec 18, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> See.. They didn't have the church not made by hands.  Jesus built that church.



Are you sure? It is true that Jesus built it, but are you sure it was not always intact in a life of faith? When Abraham sat with the King of Salem was the union made by hands? When a man and a women become one flesh is the union made by hands? Were these only signs of the Church that would be? or that ever was?


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## hobbs27 (Dec 18, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> Are you sure? It is true that Jesus built it, but are you sure it was not always intact in a life of faith? When Abraham sat with the King of Salem was the union made by hands? When a man and a women become one flesh is the union made by hands? Were these only signs of the Church that would be? or that ever was?



 I am sure within the confines of self.  I base that on my understanding  of the scriptures and the flow of the story from Genesis to Revelation.


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## Israel (Dec 19, 2016)

A brother prayed this:

The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Were we to continue to read, along with that, what follows...or far better, be "subject" to that prayer (Someone has prayed for us!) we'd find there's a lot of knowing to be had, a lot of enlightenment being requested. To say "a lot" is somewhat misleading, no?
I like this _a lot_...especially knowing that the one who wrote it, prayed it, himself, declared of himself, "not that I have already obtained or am already made perfect"

Saying there is a continuum, or that we are on a continuum seems such a lousy way of expression, but I am hard pressed to find another. Don't we perceive a very different matter of substance, or weight, if you will (not necessarily of kind...and here the word informing presents itself...but not merely that of "information") between, let's say, that prayer...and those of our brother David?

Paul's appeals seem to come from a knowing of "the end" of that faith in a deeper way, even though he may declare his place (on that continuum...sorry) is not at the end. He is aiming at something far better formed in him though he does not declare himself complete in that formation. 

This _thing_, that in some way seems to have him asking "beyond his own knowing"...is not this the very thing he speaks of as once mystery: "Christ in you, the hope of glory"?
This same man has spoken to us of a place in which originates "unutterable groanings" to which the Spirit testifies and is there of particular help(as out from that place...of Spirit)...though they be far deeper than our own discernings of mind to give them right phrase: 

"for we know not what we should pray for as we ought:" 

Now I can be all wrong in my understanding, that to me is of little consequence. But it seems that this man's confidence, and even boldness to say "we don't even know what to pray for as we ought" has also begotten a confidence that all "of the Spirit" are:
1. in the same boat
2. partakers of that confidence that "someone else is at work", and at a work in particular manner and fashion too deep for our own understanding. And always, in some sense, a "step ahead" (my interpretation) of our knowing.

Isn't it perfect that Jesus tells us to pray? And how. And where.

How else can we ever discover...but in that place, how else can it be revealed to us in mind...taking a place separate "to God", alone with Him, apart with Him, seeking to be aware of one ear only "I don't know how to do this!" And there find all confidence, though we may pour out our hearts as very deeply as we may know...must, and can only be toward One who_ already _ knows. 

That I think Paul may have come to such could be in the measure he understood and proclaimed his delight in his weaknesses and infirmities. Something compelled him beyond the frustrations of such, when seen, and as they are made plainly manifest. "I am totally unfit for this"...in admission, brought a very peculiar understanding...that could always and only come...as gift.

And I am persuaded in that, and by that, that all of the Spirit are also praying well beyond our _means_ toward a quite perfect end. 

And that always and only because of this:

For them I sanctify Myself, so that they too may be sanctified by the truth. I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in Me through their message, that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.…

This is the work of God, that you believe on Him whom He has sent.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 19, 2016)

1gr8bldr said:


> I probably use the term "religion" incorrectly, or differently than others. I use it in a negative way. Similar to the way Jesus was opposed to the "religious".  In my use of it, man tries to change his nature through discipline and teaching. Ultimately proud of what they have accomplished. Rather than as Paul said, by the grace of God I am what I am. All that I have accomplished is rubbish in view of what Christ has done. Where our radical change is not through discipline or teaching but rather through grace we eargely await through the Spirit for the righteousness for which we hope.



I like that perception. Then our journey is that spirit of grace that led Abraham or Paul? 

I can see that but didn't Paul himself teach? I see the grace part that gave Abraham the fruit he would not plant. I can see the grace part that changed Saul into Paul.

Why did Paul teach? Why not we all just base our salvation on grace? Why do we need teaching if it's going to lead us to "Pride?"


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 19, 2016)

Getting back to the tower and city, why did the folks say "if we don't build this city and tower, we'll be scattered?"
They said this as a reason to build the city and tower. Then when they started God said "Let us come down and scatter them."
I guess they thought if they didn't stay and build, soon they would be forgotten.
God's command was to scatter. They defied God to prevent being scattered. Their plan backfired. 
Lesson on defiance and pride. 

Can we tell from other scripture that these people were trying to reach God or just build a large observatory in the earth's heaven?


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## gordon 2 (Dec 19, 2016)

Israel said:


> A brother prayed this:
> 
> The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
> 
> ...




How about when the "Groom" becomes wed to his "bride" and they become one-- their offsping or creative " potential" is unknown to us. It is only something God can know now --after all it is His design which we still see dimly. All we can surmise is that love is a creation vehicle in every way and that once the bride is wed to the Groom, their love will make more of what they are, or more of what love is in a way we cannot know now. But we will know.

 All we can do now is gaze with imperfections at heavenly Jerusalem from our Kingdom and guess at what the creative possibilities could have been or could be now if there had been no fall at all and man was perfect in original design. Saints know this, that the bride is being washed... and this is our cross to wash ourselves in Him and run our race... to the wedding and to the new life that will come of/from it.

All we can know now which will anchor our faith is that we are called to the wedding and our hope is that the creation that will come out of that union is bound to be awesome --which is an understatement and poorly worded. What we inherit and will inherit is a perfected love which is His, perhaps.  And from it a new way of seeing will appear to make fact that once man was blinded and then saw and even seeing again was yet blind to the now newly created life with Him.

The eyes of lovers...create their own times and spaces.... and timelessness and even spaceslessness maybe . To such things their eyes are universally enlightened --by design. When the bride and the Groom become one, it is difficult to know now what exactly we will see and not see.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 20, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Getting back to the tower and city, why did the folks say "if we don't build this city and tower, we'll be scattered?"
> They said this as a reason to build the city and tower. Then when they started God said "Let us come down and scatter them."
> I guess they thought if they didn't stay and build, soon they would be forgotten.
> God's command was to scatter. They defied God to prevent being scattered. Their plan backfired.
> ...


Always enjoy how your post cause me to ponder....Take note of "They used brick instead of stone". When God's chosen people were in captivity, they were building the egyptian's religious pyramids.  Rather than being set free, they were commanded to work harder. More straw. This is what happens when a new Christian accepts Christ. Immediately they are told you need do this and do that. Rather than letting the new covenant process take place, our leaders blaspheme the Holy Spirit by saying, I am your teacher. His work then becomes as brick, man made product, with each one adding up to an increase in size. Sometimes becoming beautiful structures in which we might stand back and proudly admire saying look what we have accomplished. God should be proud of our work. But God does not live in houses made by man and as Jesus said, everything will be torn down, scattered,  all rubbish and rubble as Paul said. Jesus has become the stone the builders rejected. It has to be his work in us, through the new covenant, the Holy Spirit rather than our work otherwise we are still in the old covenant. 2000+ years revealed that man could not overcome his nature. It had to be torn down/ buried otherwise we all are just white washed tombs. Now I understand it seeming is a thin line. One might say it is the HS working in me. And only God knows, but the true test is does he hate what he sees when he looks in the mirror. Only after one has been given a good look at self and failed so many times at overcoming our nature does he realize that it can not be cleaned up but rather has to be crucified. If self has not been seen yet, then one has not yet submitted to being crucified and is not yet a new creation. Because only after having died can one be raised to new life. Self, our nature  is ugly. It is prideful, boastful, arrogant, etc. I saw it most in and through church and good deeds. If anyone does not agree, I ask you to go do something good anonymous. Help out at a shelter, give to the poor, visit the old folks home, etc.... but don't tell anyone. Seems easy enough... But watch what happens.... You will over and over again have to fight a battle to keep it secret. Your nature will crave just to tell someone. After awhile over multiple instances, we start to see the power of self and ask where did that come from. You began to hate what you see, not just this revelation, but others, and eventually are broken when we see our arrogance in view of what Christ has done.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 20, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Getting back to the tower and city, why did the folks say "if we don't build this city and tower, we'll be scattered?"
> They said this as a reason to build the city and tower. Then when they started God said "Let us come down and scatter them."
> I guess they thought if they didn't stay and build, soon they would be forgotten.
> God's command was to scatter. They defied God to prevent being scattered. Their plan backfired.
> ...


It is somewhat of a stage set for the coming promises. Notice how the family head made a name for himself. By settling in an area, the town/city taking his name. Every city was from someone's name. But God promised Abraham that he would make a name for him. Abraham left all that he knew, settling no where but on a constant journey. He built nothing. Abraham looked for and expected "a city which had foundations  whose builder and maker is God"  Through eyes of faith "he saw it and was glad" the new Jerusalem


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 20, 2016)

Hey Art, just to be clear, I never intend to sound like I am directly responding to your post. I usually just get a thought from your thought. Your post always cause me to look from another angle, which then causes me to ramble on.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 20, 2016)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hey Art, just to be clear, I never intend to sound like I am directly responding to your post. I usually just get a thought from your thought. Your post always cause me to look from another angle, which then causes me to ramble on.



You were one of the first people I knew who had similar thoughts and beliefs as me.
I feel as though I've come a long way from when I began. I'm finally seeing the "way" to be more spiritual and from grace than the other paths. 

Your posts too have caused me to delve into my mind in a more spiritual way than physical. You helped me begin my journey by pointing me in the right direction. Not by having similar beliefs but to "walk the lonesome valley" by myself so to speak. That it is OK to think and question.

I must say, so has this forum and all of the others. I think I have a better realization of how to define the Church than ever before. I once believed a person must believe in a set certain doctrine and perform a certain set of rituals. To say, "look at me, see what I have done." 
"Look what I have accomplished. Look at how I worship God. Look how I help the poor."
Now I can see how prideful I was. I hope that my journey has humbled  me a bit. Not that I'm great at this humility thing but that I can at least see the error of my ways and give all of the credit to God.

So please for my benefit, "ramble on."


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 20, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> I listened to John Walton speak a little on this yesterday  and he made a point that was very interesting.  As we all know the story,  it has always been taught to me the tower was so man could reach heaven... Walton says man was building the tower so God could come down to them.
> This changes the view of a few things I believe.  What say you?



Genesis 11:5
But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower the people were building.

Thoughts?


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## gordon 2 (Dec 21, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Genesis 11:5
> But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower the people were building.
> 
> Thoughts?



Humans spiritually "seeing", seeing that seeing is still a heads-up affair, it always puzzles me why so many people bow their heads in prayer.  Unless/or spiritually speaking that up and down might be nor up nor down, but figures of understanding more or less making towers the builded images in the mind and heart and where one might view there as if from above and below... what is sound.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 21, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Genesis 11:5
> But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower the people were building.
> 
> Thoughts?



God came down to the temple and dwelled with man from the Holiest place in the temple. 

The temple was an image of what was to be... The temple of God is now within us. 

 Man making a name for God... Not God making a name for man.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 21, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> God came down to the temple and dwelled with man from the Holiest place in the temple.
> 
> The temple was an image of what was to be... The temple of God is now within us.
> 
> Man making a name for God... Not God making a name for man.



But the Lord didn't need a physical pathway. Even spiritually, why did the Lord need to come down to look at the city and tower? 
Maybe that's just a figure of speech. He already knew something was amiss. He didn't really need to "come down" to see it.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 21, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> But the Lord didn't need a physical pathway. Even spiritually, why did the Lord need to come down to look at the city and tower?
> Maybe that's just a figure of speech. He already knew something was amiss. He didn't really need to "come down" to see it.



God's " coming" always denotes an action.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 21, 2016)

Is the city of Babel the same city as Babylon?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 21, 2016)

Perhaps the tower to the heavens was just a platform to worship the stars. To worship the creation instead of the Creator.

These people guided by their leader were defying God by not dispersing. They wanted to unite and stay in a large city. They wanted to build this city and tower so big to make a name for themselves. 

I don't believe they were trying to reach God or make a path for God to reach them by making a tower in the sky.(heaven)

Many civilizations over the years have built mounds, towers, etc. to reach into the sky.(heaven)
Sometimes to be higher to worship the gods of the heavens and sometimes for their own leader to be higher so they can worship him.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 21, 2016)

You didn't watch the video,  did you?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 21, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> You didn't watch the video,  did you?



I must confess. I'll watch it now.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 21, 2016)

I'm watching now. My first thought is how they wanted to provide for God so that he would provide for them. I'm thinking how in present day we feel that if we provide for God, he will provide for us.
If we believe, pray, worship a certain way, help the poor, spread the gospel, and on & on that God will in return provide some type of protection for us as individuals. Now if we continue this as a nation, if we provide for God as a nation, defending his name, fighting nations against God, he will provide for us as a nation.

I could be overthinking this but this is what popped into my head watching the video. When it comes down to it, isn't protection from God the reason we believe in Jesus? We want protection from eternal death. We're like saying, OK God, I'll believe in you if you provide me protection. I'll help others if you provide me protection. I'll feed you by feeding the poor. I mean it's not exactly the same but it's similar in that if we do certain things for God, he will do certain things for us.

My final thought on that part goes to what Gr8bldr said, it's fine and grand that one is doing things to help God like spreading the gospel and helping the poor but only if one is doing it for God's glory and not themselves.

Does one become a believer for God's glory or to save their own soul from death?

If the people in Babel were building this tower to help God because they thought they were actually helping him, then great. But if they were helping God where God would help them then maybe that's wrong. I guess, is it?

I'm not even sure they were helping God for God to return the favor. I'm thinking they were worshiping the creation instead of the Creator.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 21, 2016)

They are trying to create a sacred space for God to come down and provide for them. Again, they are doing it for themselves. Is that scriptural?

When one accepts Jesus, aren't they usually doing it for themselves to gain salvation from eternal death? I'm trying to establish what they did was wrong compared to why we seek salvation if in fact what they were doing was seeking God for protection.
I don't recall them saying anything about building a tower to provide for God. Where is this guy getting this? They were building a grand city and tower for fame and pride but trying to provide a gateway for God to descend down for food or worship? I'm not seeing that. 

Providing a gateway for God to descend for a sacred space? I'm not seeing that either.

Why has God's sacred space always been the temple in Jerusalem?
Not that I'm doubting that, just wondering why?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 21, 2016)

Eventually he adopts Israel and his Covenant as the sacred space to reveal himself through Abraham.

Don't you imagine this was God's plan from the beginning? This guy makes it seem like God didn't like what the people in Babel were trying to do by establishing sacred space so "eventually" he used Abraham. Eventually he adopted Israel as his coveted people.
Eventually he adopted the temple in Jerusalem for his sacred space.
Sacred space "re-established."
God's presence "became" available to all. God's presence/sacred space was eventually "extended."
We all became sacred space at Pentecost. 

All of this from the Tower of Babel? If scripture tells us this then sure. Otherwise, they just built a grand city and tower for their own pride to stay unified instead of dispersing. It was a lesson on disobedience, pride, and man not capable of hindering God's plan. 

I'm willing to see it differently if you can show me with scripture where it is more than this.


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