# Once saved/Always saved? Or not?



## Bubba_T (Mar 16, 2007)

Have had a couple of very deep discussions recently on the subject of if "Once saved/always saved" is true or not.

I'm in a discipleship relationship with a gentleman (him discipling me), and he threw the subject on the table this past Monday. 

I really opened a can of worms during dinner Monday nite when I threw the subject out for discussion with my daughters as well as one of their husbands (Baptist minister) and the other one's boyfriend (worship leader at a non-denominational church). That was a pretty interesting and lively discussion. 

I've spent quite a bit of time reading the Word on the subject, but I'll keep my opinions to myself at this point. 

Would appreciate your thoughts and ideas. But......

would appreciate not getting emotional responses. Would much prefer responses (supporting either side of the argument) that back up the position with clear scripture and logic related to that scripture. 

I searched for threads addressing this subject, and while I found it mentioned in other threads, didn't find a thread strictly focused on the subject. 

Thanks for the feedback. 

Bubba T


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 16, 2007)

Absolutely yes. First Chapter of Ephesians shows that. I'm a predestinatarian, which will be somewhat different from others on here, however, we can agree on this. Eph 1:13,14 "ye were SEALED with that Holy Spirit of promise................redemption of the PURCHASED POSSESSION " emphasis mine.

In our beliefs, when Jesus said it is finished, he meant it is finished. Not it is finished unless so and so decides to backslide at which time i'll...........

We believe that continually sinning after knowing the grace of God can get you in a lot of trouble with him in this life, putting it simply, it will not affect Christ's purchase of you eternally. Of course, to us, this was determined before the foundation of the world. But that's another argument for another day.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 16, 2007)

I guess my argument for the Preservation of Saints was somewhat vague. So here goes.

We believe in salvation by grace and grace alone. God started the work, continued the work, and will consumate the work, at which time he will have successfully completed what he began.

John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me SHALL come unto me; and him that cometh to me I WILL IN NO WISE CAST OUT" {emp. mine} This verse contains three key truths of grace: #1- Election "All that the father giveth me..." #2 Irresistable Grace- "...shall come unto me...", and #3 ETERNAL SECURITY-"...him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

Romans8:29-31 shows God's plan in it's entirety. I won't write all of it but summarize it

#1- he foreknew
#2- he predestinated
#3- he called
#4- he justified
#5- he glorified

Psalm 89:30-34
" If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgements; If they break my statutes, and keep not my commanments; THEN will I visit their transgression with the ROD, and their iniquity with STRIPES. NEVERTHELESS my lovingkindness will i not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness TO FAIL. MY COVENANT WILL I NOT BREAK, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

Psalm 37:23-24
The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord and he delighteth in his way: THOUGH HE FALL, HE SHALL NOT BE UTTERLY CAST DOWN, FOR THE LORD UPHOLDETH HIM WITH HIS HAND

It is all throughout the Bible, and while some still hold that one can backslide and lose eternal salvation, it would seem to me that it would be against the character of God himself. He is immutable and faithful, while we are not.

Finally, to end the argument, John 10:28-30

I GIVE UNTO THEM ETERNAL LIFE; AND THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH, NEITHER SHALL ANY MAN PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY HAND. MY FATHER, WHICH GAVE THEM ME, IS GREATER THAN ALL, AND NO MAN IS ABLE TO PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY FATHER'S HAND. I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE.


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## JuliaH (Mar 17, 2007)

Interesting discussion 

I used to believe "once saved-always saved" but over the years I have come to question that a bit for my own life.. I am sure that as long as I hold fast to that which I have believed I am ok, but what about if I TURN AWAY... I have often wondered... here are some passages to support my own questionings 


Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

1 Cor 9:26-27: I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. 

1 Cor 10:12: Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

2 Cor 5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Philippians 2:12
 1st John 1:6     
Romans 8:7-8
Hebrews 10
2 Peter 2:20
Hebrews 6:4-6

Sorry about the shortened post, trying to not be late for work this morning 

Julia


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

GOOD VERSES. However, i feel in the context which they are being used they refer to your relatonship with God in this life. 

In Romans 8:7-8, Paul is refering to being seperated by from God. The carnal mind is against God. The mind of the flesh will never come to God. That's one of the reasons Primitive Baptists and Calvinists do not believe in the freewill of man concerning eternal salvation, thus relying on the Doctrine of Grace and God's Election. Which of course is another debate for some other time. I am a Primitive Baptist. I know what kind of firestorm it will kick up.

However, most of your examples are Paul's. In Romans 11:22, the discourse, basically the entire chapter, is concerning fellowship with God and for gentiles not to think more highly of themselves than the Jew. Continual reading will take you to 8:26 where ALL ISRAEL shall be saved. But verse 21 said the NATURAL branches were not spared. How could they be saved in verse 26 after they were cut off in verse 21? The answer lies in the earthly fellowship with God here on Earth. Ever thought God, if you sin continually, finally will just step back and say," Ok, your on your own. Go for it. You will be back "and he let's you run your life in the ground until you finally realize that without him, you can't do it. And you hit your knees and ask him to forgive you. If during this time God takes your salvation away when you have a bad day, grants it back on your good days, well, it means that God waivers. His decisions are not set in stone. I find it to be against his personal character as decribed by the Bible. 

I would rather rely on the immutability of God and not myself. For if it were by my works, then it is no longer SAVED BY GRACE.  I choose grace because the world has seen my works. I wouldn't have a chance.

Good topic


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## SBG (Mar 17, 2007)

Romans 8

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


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## crackerdave (Mar 17, 2007)

There is no question in my mind,and God's Word is very clear-Jesus would have to die over and over if what some say about losing your salvation were true.
  When you truly give your heart to Jesus and decide you want God to control your life,it's a done deal FOREVER! That doesn't mean you won't have doubts and troubles and attacks by satan's people,but your destination is sure.


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 17, 2007)

Absolutly  NOT!

 The bible is very clear on this subject. The only individual that wants you to believe in once saved always saved is Stan, because it furthers his cause: loose conduct, unaccountability, acts that seperate you from God.
Look at Hebrews 10:26
For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, 27 but [there is] a certain fearful expectation of judgment and [there is] a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition. 

Satan himself was a chief angel, and he chose to rebel, was he ever saved? 
It gets down to double talk. WHen you point out the numerous examples of individuals losing salvation because of their choices, supports will say they where never really saved. 
God never intended for his kindness and forgiveness to be taken for granted.


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## JuliaH (Mar 17, 2007)

DartonHunter101 said:


> Look at Hebrews 10:26
> For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, 27 but [there is] a certain fearful expectation of judgment and [there is] a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition.
> 
> Satan himself was a chief angel, and he chose to rebel, was he ever saved?
> ...



And you have hit the nail on the head exactly with this statement... I have mixed feelings about whether a person who rebels wholeheartedly was ever really Christian... but it is not us who are smart enough to know.  

My feelings, as I said above, have changed from staunchly "Once Saved, Always Saved" to an attitude of cautiousness. I do NOT believe I have to "work my way to heaven" nor do I believe that I can do anything I want, once saved, and remain in the hands of God... I think if I want to remove myself from His grace and care, He might just let me...  

Actively reading and learning more 

Julia


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## THREEJAYS (Mar 17, 2007)

JuliaH said:


> And you have hit the nail on the head exactly with this statement... I have mixed feelings about whether a person who rebels wholeheartedly was ever really Christian... but it is not us who are smart enough to know.
> 
> My feelings, as I said above, have changed from staunchly "Once Saved, Always Saved" to an attitude of cautiousness. once savedI do NOT believe I have to "work my way to heaven" nor do I believe that I can do anything I want, , and remain in the hands of God... I think if I want to remove myself from His grace and care, He might just let me...
> 
> ...



I agree.I know theres no one who can remove me from Christ but he may well honor it if the individual takes that route,He is pretty clear in Rev. where he's talking to the seven churchs.We know if they were the church then they weren't the lost.In the parable about the vine and the branches he also talks about what will be the fate of the ones not producing fruit,and the only way to be in Christ is to be saved.


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 17, 2007)

Matt 24: 13  But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved.

Those are words right out of Jesus mouth. If we remain faithful untill the end, then we will be saved.Yes cannot work and earn it, because we have no right to it, but it is a gift. However if we truly appreciate a gift we will show it in our works.

James 2: 26   :Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead


Just the way I see all the evidence, not just  looking at a piece.


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## JuliaH (Mar 17, 2007)

THREEJAYS said:


> I agree.I know theres no one who can remove me from Christ but he may well honor it if the individual takes that route,He is pretty clear in Rev. where he's talking to the seven churchs.We know if they were the church then they weren't the lost.In the parable about the vine and the branches he also talks about what will be the fate of the ones not producing fruit,and the only way to be in Christ is to be saved.



Here is the passage from John 15 about fruit... I am not finding the "only way to be in Christ is to be saved" part in this chapter.  I am using the Amplified version... I love that Bible. It is harder to read than the NIV, but it really draws out a lot of words and the meaning comes clearer to me 

I have highlighted some important parts (to me) of this group of verses...

1 I AM the True Vine, and My Father is the Vinedresser.

2 Any branch in Me that does not bear fruit [that stops bearing] He cuts away (trims off, takes away); and He cleanses and repeatedly prunes every branch that continues to bear fruit, to make it bear more and richer and more excellent fruit.

3 You are cleansed and pruned already, because of the word which I have given you [the teachings I have discussed with you].

4 Dwell in Me, and I will dwell in you. [Live in Me, and I will live in you.] Just as no branch can bear fruit of itself without abiding in (being vitally united to) the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you abide in Me.

5 I am the Vine; you are the branches. Whoever lives in Me and I in him bears much (abundant) fruit. However, apart from Me [cut off from vital union with Me] you can do nothing.

6 If a person does not dwell in Me, he is thrown out like a [broken-off] branch, and withers; such branches are gathered up and thrown into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If you live in Me [abide vitally united to Me] and My words remain in you and continue to live in your hearts, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you.

8 When you bear (produce) much fruit, My Father is honored and glorified, and you show and prove yourselves to be true followers of Mine.

9 I have loved you, [just] as the Father has loved Me; abide in My love [[a]continue in His love with Me].

10 If you keep My commandments [if you continue to obey My instructions], you will abide in My love and live on in it, just as I have obeyed My Father's commandments and live on in His love.

11 I have told you these things, that My joy and delight may be in you, and that your joy and gladness may be of full measure and complete and overflowing.

12 This is My commandment: that you love one another [just] as I have loved you.

13 No one has greater love [no one has shown stronger affection] than to lay down (give up) his own life for his friends.

14You are My friends if you keep on doing the things which I command you to do.

15 I do not call you servants (slaves) any longer, for the servant does not know what his master is doing (working out). But I have called you My friends, because I have made known to you everything that I have heard from My Father. [I have revealed to you everything that I have learned from Him.]

16 You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you and I have appointed you [I have planted you], that you might go and bear fruit and keep on bearing, and that your fruit may be lasting [that it may remain, abide], so that whatever you ask the Father in My Name [as *presenting all that I AM], He may give it to you.

Can you imagine the strength we Christians would have if we just could fully understand, embrace and live this chapter of John... then whatever we ask of the Father we would have... whatever is a big word in this context. 

All of us fall short... but we need not to fall too far from the vine..imho 

Julia*


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

I'm sorry but i have to respectfully disagree with you. Paul himself continued to sin after he kew the truth. I hope you aren't grouping me with Satan, because i wholeheartedly believe in the "once saved, always saved"

I'll get a whole lot deeper to prove my point. God, chooses you, not the other way around. Before the foundation of the world, he made a chioce. Noticed i said, he made a chioce. The Bible is clear on this. The doctrines of Predestination and Election are Biblical surities. I know a lot of people believe that you choose Jesus. We believe God chooses you.  He awakens you and your eyes to his reality. This is the point where most Christians believe you get saved, and that is fine. But we believe when Christ died, he died for the mass of humanity that God elected before the foundation of the world.

Now, the Bible is sure on this. Doesn't matter to me how you feel like a person get's in this group, whether it be by God's choice or choosing Christ as your personal saviour, God still elected this group. Romans and Ephesians are the best books explaining this choice but it is thru out the Bible. So, as the Bible explains, God chooses and then predestinates. Predestinate to what? TO BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON. Then those predestinated were called. Them who were called were justified. And finally, they were or will be glorified. This is God's plan. Not my opinions but God's plan. The Covenant of Grace supersedes any doctrine in the Bible. 

Now, this same Jesus, in his own words, says "  AND THIS IS THE FATHER'S WILL WHICH HATH SENT ME, THAT ALL WHICH HE HATH GIVEN ME I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING, BUT SHOULD RAISE IT UP AGAIN AT THE LAST DAY"

Who was given to Christ? Those whom God elected before the foundation of the world. IF ANY MAN SAYS CHRIST CAN LOSE ONE OF HIS SHEEP, THEN HE DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS CHRIST'S WORDS AND GOD'S WILL.

You can find many passages in the Bible that seem like they are refering to losing salvation and you are correct. But eternal salvation is not the only type of salvation in the Bible. If you continue to sin after knowing the truth, you can get cut off. That is to say "from daily communion with God". The passage in Hebrews exactly defines this situation. You can live and walk with Christ daily, or go about it on your own and have that " EXPECTATION OF JUDGEMENT"

The fire will be that which is in your belly.

The lowering of expectations is not true with once saved, always saved. Actually, the opposite is true. Because the penalty is much more severe to those who know the truth of Christ than for those who never knew it. Why? Because God "quickened" you, that is " made alive". You know what the expectations are. 

Now, are there some who slack with this doctrine. The answer is yes. I can not deny there are some. But for those, they never truly fellowship with the " LIVING GOD ".

 However, I believe Satan would rather you believe that you could lose your eternal salvation because it would undermine God's will and Christ's sacrifice. 

John 6:37

All that the father giveth me SHALL come to me, and him that cometh to me I WILL IN NO WISE CAST OUT.

In modern english versions " certainly not cast out "

Would Satan want you to believe that Christ was lying? Probably so i would suspect. But i will believe his words.


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 17, 2007)

Agreed. God does draw people, but he doesn't force people, nor does he allow others to set his standards. Everyday illustrations help.
A host of a grand party sends out invitations. He wants it to be a formal occasion, so he has a dress code and other guidelines. One indivdual shows up barely dressed, drunk, and acting abusively.  What does the host do?

Once saved always saved teaches that the host allows this individual to set his own rules, be loud  and abusive  at the party.

That just doesn't add up. Don't you think the host would just ask him to leave?

There are so many examples in the bible of people losing their salvation.
Who would want you to believe you can disrupt the host's party, and abuse his guests, set your own rules: the host's enemy.


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## THREEJAYS (Mar 17, 2007)

JuliaH said:


> Here is the passage from John 15 about fruit... I am not finding the "only way to be in Christ is to be saved" part in this chapter.



Sorry that was me thinking not a quote.The only way I can see being in Christ is being saved


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## THREEJAYS (Mar 17, 2007)

adpruitt I don't mean this bad and I do enjoy other points of view,I have on occation been enlighten to change something I may have thought.My question is if the ones that are saved in the end have nothing to do with choice, why are we given the great commision and why would it really matter if we followed Christ.I really don't mean this in an ugly way ,I just don't understand.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

The 65 psalm verse four

Blessed is the man WHOM THOU CHOOSEST, and CAUSEST TO APPROACH UNTO THEE, that he may dwell in the courts. 

God not only chooses but also draws. You can not resist this draw. 

When Jesus said" Lazarus, come forth ", what happened? He came bound hand and foot. Did he get to choose whether or not to come? Did he have a chance to say" No, i don't believe in your power or who you are"? No, he came. Is it not written that whom God foreknew, he predestinated, and whom he predestinated HE DID CALL?
It's irresistable grace. I would believe you if Lazarus had a choice but he did not. Jesus said come and he did.

Read about the conversion of Paul and ask me where his choice was? Jesus told him what to do. Did not even ask him wheter or not he wanted to. He told him to " get up and enter the city, and it will BE TOLD YOU WHAT YOU MUST DO"

If it's a matter of fairness, read the 9 chapter of Romans. The man at your party. This example shows us how man thinks. Surely we all would ask the man to leave because of HOW WE THINK. After he tells how he choose Jacob over Esau, before they were born, neither having done good or evil, that the purpose of God ACCORDING TO ELECTION MIGHT STAND, NOT OF WORKS, BUT OF HIM THAT CALLETH,...............JACOB HAVE I LOVED BUT ESAU I HAVE HATED.

Before they were born? They haven't made any choices. They have done nothing. They have neither accepted him nor rejected him.

Now, in man's thinking, that wouldn't be fair. Verse 14-15 asks if that's wrong. God says I will have mercy and compassion on whomever I want too. That drunk might not fit in in our eyes but our eyes mean nothing. To prove this later on in the chapter, verses 20-23

Nay but, o man, who art thou that repliest against God? SHALL THE THING FORMED SAY TO HIM THAT FORMED IT, WHY HAST THOU MADE ME THUS?

hath not the potter power over the clay, OF THE SAME LUMP, to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Next two verse tells how he endures the lump of dishonour to make known his glory and mercy to the lump of honour.

Maybe God endures the drunk to show the others how not to behave. Also, you are setting the party according to mans standards, or better yet, the devil loves that thinking.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

threejays, i was posting the above and i'm working on your answer


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

Okay, threejays, this is the way it's been taught to me so as to be easily explainable.

God's elect are Christ's inheritance. It's really not that simple but it's a place to start.

Election is not this big scary doctrine. Quite the opposite. It's a thrilling truth. Paul refers to it as a spiritual blessing. Once election is understood biblically, it soars far above freewill into the realm of free grace.

It is also practically helpful in many ways. It motivates people to worship. Who wouldn't want to praise a God who freely accepted them despite their shortcomings. It motivates a holy walk. An example of the commision is when Paul was contemplating the task of ministering in Corinth, which was extremely wicked. What did God say?

"Fear not....for I have much people in this city." Already? Before he ministered there? God had paved Paul's way before he went. The apostle John spoke of this and those" whose names were written in the Lamb's book of life FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD" 

What have we heard the gospel to mean? The good news. Ministers seek out God's elect and minister to them on how to live accordingly, how to commune with God, how to live obedient to God, how to pray to God, and so on. Why? So they can experience John 3:16, everlasting life. Everlasting life has a starting point.

Want a lesson in Greek? Everyone uses John 3:16 as to be talking about the whole world. The english is deceiving. The Greek word for world in this verse is kosmos. It's greek definition is " an orderly arrangement, i.e. decoration" It is from the root word komizo, which means " to tend to,i.e. take care of". So in its Greek form, God so loved his orderly arrangement.......

What had God arranged? A pathway for his elect.

Do not get me wrong. All Christians are in the elect. The number of the elect is compared to the sands of the sea and the stars in the skies.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

It's not quite that simple Woodwalker but it isn't as hard as people make it.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

if i could find a new testament in hebrew i would read it. However, the hebrew of the old testament supports my argument as well. 

It's fun to debate so long as it's done respectfully. Best wishes to you


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## JuliaH (Mar 17, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> if i could find a new testament in hebrew i would read it. However, the hebrew of the old testament supports my argument as well.
> 
> It's fun to debate so long as it's done respectfully. Best wishes to you



Respect for others is the only way to argue a point and keep things from disintigrating into something awful... lots of good stuff coming out here... 

The New Testament was written in Greek... so you will never find one in Hebrew that was not translated, much as it has been translated into English, imho.  

Julia


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## JuliaH (Mar 17, 2007)

THREEJAYS said:


> My question is if the ones that are saved in the end have nothing to do with choice, why are we given the great commision and why would it really matter if we followed Christ.I really don't mean this in an ugly way ,I just don't understand.



Choice is something God gave us from the very beginning... ie: the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden. Had we not had a choice we would not follow Him freely... we would simply be subjects with no choice in the matters of life and death and not heirs...imho.  I think we have an inner calling... all of us born on this earth... but we ignore it sometimes, or fear it, or look for the answer in who knows how many places out of rebellion against God Himself... but we have to choose.  

I have little understanding of predestination and am reading with interest   I can remember as a child in school in a church (back in the days of schools closing over integration) and sensing a need to go sit in the sanctuary to find something very special... but I resisted that calling until about 9-10 years went by... and then it was made very plain to me what I needed. Hence, me becoming a Christian... 

Julia


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

agree, but they were told that when they ate of it they would surely die. They died to what? Spiritual communion with God. They didn't die right then and there physically. Just spiritually.

Speaking of choice, I say you were chosen. God awakened your eyes to who you really are, one of his. Might have taken you awhile to realize it, but you were and have always been his. But what about Pharoah? God hardened his heart.

What about the people born before Christ. I hope that the argument of Christ preaching to them while in the grave doesn't come up because it's a man made assumption and the Bible does not verify it. No where does it say he preached the gospel to those who had already died.

Or this. You have an island of 10,000 people. They have never heard of Christ. According to some, they will go to heaven because of their ignorance. Others say they will have heard of him somehow. But let's say they haven't and we go with the popular theory of all of them getting in because of ignorance. They all die in a storm. 10,000 in heaven. Now lets say that two days before the storm a preacher goes there and preaches salvation by free will. 5,000 believe and are saved that day. Two days later a storm comes and kills them all. Now we have 5000 in heaven and 5000 in ImadummyImadummyImadummyImadummy. Seems to me they would have been better off in ignorance. 

To me, and please understand, i was raised in a freewill home so i know how that side works, and i love them  that believe it. But i would rather leave it in the hands of an almighty God making the PERFECT choice rather than myself messing it up.

One last example. Take two empty glasses. Now take a third and fill it with water. The two empty ones represent two human beings. The one with water represents God. The water represents God's spirit. Now, the empty glasses are like any human. They are born dead in sins and trespasses. They have no spiritual life. They Bible says that they can not come to God. They don't want to. Now sit back and wait. Wait for one of the Dead glasses to ask the full one for water. Wait and wait and........you get the idea. It won't happen. Never will. Never has. Only until you take the glass representing God and pour his Spirit into one of the empty glasses will it become " like God with his spirit indwelling in it" Such is the life of a dead man. The Bible says DEAD. Have you ever seen something dead make a move or request something? You are either dead or alive. There is no grey area, no in between. Something DEAD can not request to be alive. Lazarus didn't. Only till Christ called him did he come. he didn't come dead and ask to be made alive, he came alive. Does a baby asked to be born? No. Does the egg ask to be a bird? No. And does a man spiritually dead ask to be made alive? I say no. When God's spirit enters you, you are bornagain. Quickened. Made awake. God acts first. He must because dead things can not be asked to be made alive. So when one looks back at the moment of salvation, i say you were just awakened to who you really are. Instead of saying i accepted Jesus as my personal saviour, i say Jesus acceptedyou and made you alive. Jesus chooses you because God has chosen you, from the foundation of the world. Not much difference buta great difference.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

sorry about that sensor but i was speaking of the literal place. my apology


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

don't think that makes me a dummy


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

oh yeah, tell any man or woman that they don't have a choice in something and look into their reactions. It's human nature to make themselves as God's and controlling their destinies. It's so beautiful once you see God's choice and his plan and how he has carried it out until the end.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

hey, that's okay. Like i said, to me all who believe are in the elect so i have no problem with someone believing differently than i. Only when others try to convert me do i ever run into a problem.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

you don't believe me?


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

then i'm having a brain ..... cause i don't understand the bridge thing. Feel dumb after talking about deep stuff that i can't figure it out


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

never thought about it but what's that got to do with a bridge in New York? But let me see about this one.

I can see where there are similar aspects as far as being communal. The major difference is that Jesus promoted a religion and most communists i've read about do not. They are mostly atheist are they not?

I would say in that day communal living was more of the norm? That's a pretty interesting question i'd say. I also hold that he was not meek and weak but was more in your face, masculine type. He never backed down from a fight(intellectually)if you know what i mean. I'll have to research your question some more because to be honest, i've never gave it any thought.


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## JuliaH (Mar 17, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> agree, but they were told that when they ate of it they would surely die. They died to what? Spiritual communion with God. They didn't die right then and there physically. Just spiritually.



Right, but physical death may not have happened except for that one little disobedience...   Men in the OT lived hundreds of years... so it took a while for sin to get us down to 100 years, give or take some.  There was no sin nature before that bad choice... but we are born with it, and with the capability to choose differently... imho



> Speaking of choice, I say you were chosen. God awakened your eyes to who you really are, one of his. Might have taken you awhile to realize it, but you were and have always been his. But what about Pharoah? God hardened his heart.



I know.... Dunno about Pharoah, but he was not choosing God anyhow, much as I know about the Egyptians and their gods of this and that... so he had made choices again and again, and those choices were against God's chosen, the Israelites. He was a pretty mean guy BEFORE Moses came and God hardened his heart to what was told him. The rest I will have to wait and ask about when we get to our home in God's kingdom. My list of things to ask about is getting longer and longer 



> What about the people born before Christ. I hope that the argument of Christ preaching to them while in the grave doesn't come up because it's a man made assumption and the Bible does not verify it. No where does it say he preached the gospel to those who had already died.



I don't exactly know. But checked in with Isaiah 57:1-2 where it says in the NIV 

1 The righteous perish, 
       and no one ponders it in his heart; 
       devout men are taken away, 
       and no one understands 
       that the righteous are taken away 
       to be spared from evil. 

 2 Those who walk uprightly 
       enter into peace; 
       they find rest as they lie in death. 

That's all I know... God will have to fill us in on the rest 



> Or this. You have an island of 10,000 people. They have never heard of Christ. According to some, they will go to heaven because of their ignorance. Others say they will have heard of him somehow. But let's say they haven't and we go with the popular theory of all of them getting in because of ignorance. They all die in a storm. 10,000 in heaven. Now lets say that two days before the storm a preacher goes there and preaches salvation by free will. 5,000 believe and are saved that day. Two days later a storm comes and kills them all. Now we have 5000 in heaven and 5000 in "a not so good place". Seems to me they would have been better off in ignorance.



Again, I don't know.  But I do know that I had this longing in my heart at a young age. I did not know Who was calling me... but I knew He would be full of peace and it was right. It was fear of the unknown and of being seen in the sanctuary alone that stopped me...and maybe other things too, I was pretty young (Jr. High we used to call it). 



> One last example. Take two empty glasses. Now take a third and fill it with water. The two empty ones represent two human beings. The one with water represents God. The water represents God's spirit. Now, the empty glasses are like any human. They are born dead in sins and trespasses. They have no spiritual life. They Bible says that they can not come to God. They don't want to. Now sit back and wait. Wait for one of the Dead glasses to ask the full one for water. Wait and wait and........you get the idea. It won't happen. Never will. Never has. Only until you take the glass representing God and pour his Spirit into one of the empty glasses will it become " like God with his spirit indwelling in it" Such is the life of a dead man. The Bible says DEAD. Have you ever seen something dead make a move or request something? You are either dead or alive. There is no grey area, no in between. Something DEAD can not request to be alive. Lazarus didn't. Only till Christ called him did he come. he didn't come dead and ask to be made alive, he came alive. Does a baby asked to be born? No. Does the egg ask to be a bird? No. And does a man spiritually dead ask to be made alive? I say no. When God's spirit enters you, you are bornagain. Quickened. Made awake. God acts first. He must because dead things can not be asked to be made alive. So when one looks back at the moment of salvation, i say you were just awakened to who you really are. Instead of saying i accepted Jesus as my personal saviour, i say Jesus acceptedyou and made you alive. Jesus chooses you because God has chosen you, from the foundation of the world. Not much difference buta great difference.



I am reading with careful consideration of your statements...  The DEAD that accompanies each and every one of us before Jesus gave us life is Spiritual death. That is what Adam and Eve died from, Spiritual death, as soon as they sinned... Physical death takes a while...

Check out Ephesians 2:1-10  

1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 

2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 

3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 

4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 

5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 

6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 

7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 

9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 

10F or we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

And it talks about God preparing our good works in advance. But He never forces it on us... imho. We have to want Him first. The rest follows.  I know so little now. I want to know it all, and see the plan clearly, but it is not time yet... we see through a glass darkly here... one day it will all be clear 

With our differing thoughts, opinions and doctrines it is a wonder we can get through life loving one another as Christians should... but somehow we seem to take our little steps along the way and come to the same conclusion... that God loves us all and wants no one to miss out on what He has prepared for all those who serve Him...

Julia


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

Julia, The first chapter of Ephesians laysout God's plan and choice. When one understands the first chapter of ephesians, then the second chapter will make more sense.

For by grace your are saved, through faith. AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES. IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD. That is exactly what i said. If faith is God's gift, how can you exercise the gift before it is given you?


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

what does imho mean? Sorry, i'm not into the lingo


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## JuliaH (Mar 17, 2007)

It is God's gift... but the longing for that gift is with us from birth... no, I cannot prove that except for my own experience.

imho means: in my humble opinion. 

I don't like to come across as prideful in my thoughts... I want to understand and to be understood as most do, and imho was a good bit of lingo I learned


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

thanks for the lingo lesson.

You are not prideful at all. I am enjoying the conversation. I know that longing. They great thing about the awakening is that it happens on God's terms and in his time. Maybe your little heart was awake all along and it took you awhile to figure it out.

I am steadfast in my beliefs as i think all should be. I am not telling anyone how to believe or what to believe. The problem with Christianity today is people go to church, hear what somebody else says, and never go home to make their own opinions on it. To me, that is no way to believe.

The Bible, people say, is so deep and over our heads. I find the opposite is true. To understand it is not difficult for me anymore. I'm not a scholar but oneday while researching it, my eyes just opened and  it clicked. The hard part is living it because i am such a sinner. Saved yes, but i fail everyday


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

I actually hope were helping BubbaT. Didn't mean to hijack your thread, sir. We just got rolling with it. But i do believe my presented argument supports once save, always saved.


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 17, 2007)

Is once saved consistenet with the bible?

Look at Phil 2:12
As you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.Fear and trembling? If you could not lose it why worry?

I believe Paul urged them not to be overly confident but to realize that their final salvation was not yet assured. Because as Jesus said it is he that endures to the end that will be saved.   Matt 24:13


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 17, 2007)

Look at Hebrews 5:9

"He ( Jesus) became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him."

Salvation= obedience


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

He's talking about this world. That ones pretty easy. Finish the chapter and the things he expresses are earthly.

Read the entire eighth chapter of Romans. Paul himself talks about how he still sins. It is not he, but the flesh, the sin that dwelleth in him. But he talks about how he is free from that. Please explain to me how he could be free if he still sinned? It's his own words, not mine.


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## JuliaH (Mar 17, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> thanks for the lingo lesson.
> 
> You are not prideful at all. I am enjoying the conversation. I know that longing. They great thing about the awakening is that it happens on God's terms and in his time. Maybe your little heart was awake all along and it took you awhile to figure it out.
> 
> ...



Thanks   And we agree on so much... but we see through that glass darkly. But.... we see the best we can ... all of us who believe that Jesus was right when He said he was the Savior. 

So much of my life has been an adventure, as I am sure all of us have experienced in each of our ways, but the more I learn the less I know... if that makes sense   It is not God's will that any should perish, but all will not be saved,  and to get back to that first post in this thread... I sure would have loved to be listening in on the conversation at Bubba T's home 

Julia


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

as far as Hebrews, ask yourself this question. Just who are those who can believe on him?


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

i agree Julia


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

salvation does not equal obedience. then it would be by works which the bible plainly states is not so. eph 2:9


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

you can not lose your eternal salvation but you can lose " the joy of God's salvation"


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## SBG (Mar 17, 2007)

Romans 8:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 

If it is possible for a supernaturally transformed person to revert to their old being, and somehow lose their salvation, how are ALL things working together for good for them?

Note Paul said ALL...not some. If a person could lose their salvation, it is obvious that ALL things are definitely not working together for their good.


Hebrews 6:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 

One thing is made abundantly clear by these verses from Hebrews-if a person that has been rescued by God almighty could lose their salvation, once they have, there is no possible remedy left for them.

Since the bible is clear that any sin separates man from God, the logical conclusion must be drawn that if a person could lose their eternal gift, any sin after salvation would cause one to lose their  eternal security.

I rejoice that I am saved by HIS GRACE, and do not have to rely on my own sinless perfection to get me to heaven.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

The thing about this is that no matter how you believe one gets saved, the constant is that sin is not taken away from someone. The sin is still there and always will be. That's called the flesh. However, the sin is covered by the blood of Christ and the Holy Spirit is given to help you battle the flesh. You guilt is removed but as long as one is in the flesh and has flesh, sin will abide.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

this is why Paul expresses that fact in Romans. The good he wants to do, he does not. The sin he doesn't want to do, he does. He is responsible for much of the New Testament. A sinner. But a sinner saved by GRACE and GRACE ALONE


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 17, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> He's talking about this world. That ones pretty easy. Finish the chapter and the things he expresses are earthly.
> 
> Read the entire eighth chapter of Romans. Paul himself talks about how he still sins. It is not he, but the flesh, the sin that dwelleth in him. But he talks about how he is free from that. Please explain to me how he could be free if he still sinned? It's his own words, not mine.




Romans 8th chapter I think Paul's is conveying is struggle to do what is right, not that there are two somethings inside him. We have two choices, fleshly choices, and then spiritual choices. Yes sin is caused by feshly desires.If you have cross references in your bible it will take you back to Gal 5 chap and Paul's further discussion of spiritual things and fleshly things. Take everything Paul said on the subject.  If Paul really believed what you are saying why would he say to contray elsewhere.

Look at Hebrews 6 chapter

4 For it is impossible as regards those who have once for all been enlightened, and who have tasted the heavenly free gift, and who have become partakers of holy spirit, 5 and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things, 6 but who have fallen away, to revive them again to repentance, because they impale the Son of God afresh for themselves and expose him to public shame.

These indivduals had tasted the free gift, partake in holy spirit??? They fell away>> Paul said it was immpossible to revive them.  How can they fall away??


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## SBG (Mar 17, 2007)

DartonHunter101 said:


> They fell away>> Paul said it was immpossible to revive them.  How can they fall away??



They did not fall away...The verse says IF, they shall fall away.

For those that believe that a born again believer can fall away...what does it take for them to fall away?


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

Like i have stated earlier, in this life. One can fall away. No doubt about it. I don't deny it. Basically, it's an admonishment of those who " know better ". Paul states he has two parts, his flesh, and his new spiritual body. As long as you have flesh, which is corrupt and dies, you will have sin. If sin were removed from flesh, flesh would no longer die. But it does. 5th chapter of Galatians describes this battle.

Galatian 5:17

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh, and these are contrary to one another: so that ye CAN NOT do the things that ye would.


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 17, 2007)

SBG said:


> They did not fall away...The verse says IF, they shall fall away.
> 
> For those that believe that a born again believer can fall away...what does it take for them to fall away?



Check different translations, that "if" is not in half of them. Would it make sense? Why ask a question about something that cannot happen?


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

fall away in this life. still doesn't remove eternal security. Just earthly communion with God and his help and grace. It's the new way of thinking, self sufficiency. Can you go thru this life alone? Not happily you can't


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 17, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> Like i have stated earlier, in this life. One can fall away. No doubt about it. I don't deny it. Basically, it's an admonishment of those who " know better ". Paul states he has two parts, his flesh, and his new spiritual body. As long as you have flesh, which is corrupt and dies, you will have sin. If sin were removed from flesh, flesh would no longer die. But it does. 5th chapter of Galatians describes this battle.
> 
> Galatian 5:17
> 
> For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh, and these are contrary to one another: so that ye CAN NOT do the things that ye would.



Not sure I understand what you are saying. Are you saying Paul at that time had two bodies, one spiritual, one fleshly?


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## SBG (Mar 17, 2007)

DartonHunter101 said:


> Check different translations, that "if" is not in half of them. Would it make sense? Why ask a question about something that cannot happen?



Okay...I'm not going to discuss translations...that is futile.

The question is completely rhetorical. It's like if you could squeeze through a keyhole to get into a lions cage, you certainly won't be able to get back out alive.

Please answer the question as to what is required for a believer to no longer be saved. What is it that causes this reversion to the old being?


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 17, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> fall away in this life. still doesn't remove eternal security. Just earthly communion with God and his help and grace. It's the new way of thinking, self sufficiency. Can you go thru this life alone? Not happily you can't



Paul is talking about their eternal hope, salvation.Not just being separated from god for a short time, but forever.
Just make sure your doctorine fits the scriptures, not that your trying to fit the scriptures to your doctorine.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

Paul had one physical body. The flesh is the old man, corrupt. The new man is his spiritual side. He talks constantly about how they battle. Basically, good verse evil. But both dwell within him. Until one is bornagain, awakened, quickened, however you want to say it, he is just flesh. Do you get a new body when one is saved? No. It resides in the flesh and the battle is on! That is why God sends his Holy Spirit to you. To help in this battle.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

If you want to talk Doctrine, I believe that God chooses you from the beginning. You have NO choice in the matter. He predestinates his elect to salvation and to heaven.  To fall away from this means God made a poor choice. IMPOSSIBLE. I do not believe in the FREEWILL of man concerning eternal salvation. Therefore, i do not believe you can take yourself out of the equation. The scriptures support my doctrine, not the other way around.

If one reads how God CHOOSES his elect before the foundation of the world, how God PREDESTINATES his ELECT, how GOD CALLS his PREDESTINATED, how those CALLED ARE JUSTIFIED, and finally, how those who were JUSTIFIED ARE FINALLY GLORIFIED, then I ask you, how can one man DICTATE THE WILL OF GOD? TO SAY THAT GOD'S CHOICE WAS NOT PERFECT, TO SAY GOD MADE A MISTAKE, how can that be if one believes in a SOVERIEGN GOD, AN IMMUTABLE GOD, A PERFECT GOD.

Scripture reveals all throughout that those going to heaven are God's elect. Scripture also reveals that man is secure in this choice MADE BY GOD. When Jesus said" IT IS FINISHED " he did not say " EXCEPT a,b,c, is not followed which at thus time ........


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 17, 2007)

SBG said:


> Okay...I'm not going to discuss translations...that is futile.
> 
> The question is completely rhetorical. It's like if you could squeeze through a keyhole to get into a lions cage, you certainly won't be able to get back out alive.
> 
> Please answer the question as to what is required for a believer to no longer be saved. What is it that causes this reversion to the old being?




God has to make that determination, but the scriptures are clear it is a real possibilty.
At Heb 10:26 Paul says it is willful sinning. Why would God give someone a precious gift who showed no appreciation. Do we reward your children for bad conduct?
Jesus also related there is NO forgiveness for some sins. Jesus at Matt 12:31 calls it the sin against the holly spirit.


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 17, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> Paul had one physical body. The flesh is the old man, corrupt. The new man is his spiritual side. He talks constantly about how they battle. Basically, good verse evil. But both dwell within him. Until one is bornagain, awakened, quickened, however you want to say it, he is just flesh. Do you get a new body when one is saved? No. It resides in the flesh and the battle is on! That is why God sends his Holy Spirit to you. To help in this battle.




100% agreed!


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

You have pulled out four or five scriptures which give an apparent contrary view. If one looks at the Bible thru the eyes of ELECTION, they do not contradict, only complement. The doctrine stating salvation can be lost is not supported. Anyone can pull out a verse or two and try and start a fire storm. Consistency from page one to the last. If JESUS HIMSELF SAYS THEY CAN NOT BE PLUCKED FROM MY HAND, then why try and find something contrary? IF Paul states that YE ARE SAVED BY GRACE........NOT OF WORKS, then how can one work himself into heaven or out of it?


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

Paul states in Roman Chapter 9 that God can show mercy on whomever he likes. That's why he loved Jacob and hated Esau, before they were born, without having done good or evil. It's right there


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

So it is not of him who willeth(works) or him who runneth(works) but of God who showeth mercy.

Who art thou who repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, why hast thou made me thus?


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 17, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> If you want to talk Doctrine, I believe that God chooses you from the beginning. You have NO choice in the matter. He predestinates his elect to salvation and to heaven.  To fall away from this means God made a poor choice. IMPOSSIBLE. I do not believe in the FREEWILL of man concerning eternal salvation. Therefore, i do not believe you can take yourself out of the equation. The scriptures support my doctrine, not the other way around.
> 
> If one reads how God CHOOSES his elect before the foundation of the world, how God PREDESTINATES his ELECT, how GOD CALLS his PREDESTINATED, how those CALLED ARE JUSTIFIED, and finally, how those who were JUSTIFIED ARE FINALLY GLORIFIED, then I ask you, how can one man DICTATE THE WILL OF GOD? TO SAY THAT GOD'S CHOICE WAS NOT PERFECT, TO SAY GOD MADE A MISTAKE, how can that be if one believes in a SOVERIEGN GOD, AN IMMUTABLE GOD, A PERFECT GOD.
> 
> Scripture reveals all throughout that those going to heaven are God's elect. Scripture also reveals that man is secure in this choice MADE BY GOD. When Jesus said" IT IS FINISHED " he did not say " EXCEPT a,b,c, is not followed which at thus time ........




Does it agree? Look at Deut 30: 19-20
"I do take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today, that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the malediction; and you must choose life in order that you may keep alive, you and your offspring, by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice and by sticking to him.”

He said YOU MUST Choose. How does that fit in to he gives you no choice?


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

Would they not die PHYSICALLY? What were they being saved from in that instance? Not every salvation in the Bible is eternal.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

I'm going to get something to drink. Read the first chapter of Ephesians. I would like to hear your synopsis of that scripture.


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 17, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> You have pulled out four or five scriptures which give an apparent contrary view. If one looks at the Bible thru the eyes of ELECTION, they do not contradict, only complement. The doctrine stating salvation can be lost is not supported. Anyone can pull out a verse or two and try and start a fire storm. Consistency from page one to the last. If JESUS HIMSELF SAYS THEY CAN NOT BE PLUCKED FROM MY HAND, then why try and find something contrary? IF Paul states that YE ARE SAVED BY GRACE........NOT OF WORKS, then how can one work himself into heaven or out of it?




Because you have a instruction manual, and you are looking at only a few steps. Like below does that mean ALL you have to do is believe? 

IF Paul states that YE ARE SAVED BY GRACE........NOT OF WORKS, then how can one work himself into heaven or out of it?[/

There is more in the instruction manual. Look at James 2:14

" Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if a certain one says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it? "

they do go together. First you have faith, and then the faith is demonstrated.  Not just one alone, works without faith is dead also.


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## TurkeyProof (Mar 17, 2007)

*I don't think so.*

But I  respect the people who do. 
*Return unto me and I'll return unto you.*


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 17, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> I'm going to get something to drink. Read the first chapter of Ephesians. I would like to hear your synopsis of that scripture.



Me too! I have enjoyed the discussion.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

faith is a fruit of the spirit. Faith is a result of having the spirit. How can you demonstrate faith if you do not have the spirit. You must have the spirit first. IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD.

Also, in James, once again, what is he being saved from?


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 17, 2007)

TurkeyProof said:


> But I  respect the people who do.
> *Return unto me and I'll return unto you.*


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

i love this stuff. Always enjoy a friendly debate


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 17, 2007)

Have you read it yet?


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## Point Blanks (Mar 18, 2007)

Those who think "once saved always saved" need to read the Old Testament again.If your not enlightened the 1st time,re-read it.

Obedience is the word.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 18, 2007)

Yeah, if you still live under the law. I don't nor do i think any Christian does. I've read it several times. Enlighttened already.

Obedience=law=pharisees=Christs rebuke


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## SBG (Mar 18, 2007)

DartonHunter101 said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> God has to make that determination, but the scriptures are clear it is a real possibilty.
> At Heb 10:26 Paul says it is willful sinning. Why would God give someone a precious gift who showed no appreciation. Do we reward your children for bad conduct?
> Jesus also related there is NO forgiveness for some sins. Jesus at Matt 12:31 calls it the sin against the holly spirit.



God does make the determination...and He instructs us of it in His word. He would not make such a serious matter unclear.

Do you know anyone that has been saved that has ever willfully sinned afterwards? You pointed out Hebrews 6 yourself. How can sinning after salvation cause one to lose their salvation? It can't, or all would be lost.



> Do we reward your children for bad conduct?



No. But I don't disown them and send them to a devil's he!! either.

For something so serious as this, don't your think that God would make it abundantly clear? The fact is, there is not one instance of a born again person losing their salvation in all of the bible...not one.


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## addictedtodeer (Mar 18, 2007)

I've spent 20 mins reading this. Adpruitt2 well done. I've pondered how to respond here and three things have come to mind.
1) Check out the thread by DoubleBarrell BB Philidelphia confession of faith chapter 17 The Perseverence of the Saint; Chapter 9 on Free Will; Chapter 10 on effectual calling; Chapter 3 Of God's decrees

2) I just need to quote from Spurgeon on this:
_I suppose there are some persons whose minds naturally incline towards the doctrine of free-will. I can only say that mine inclines as naturally towards the doctrines of sovereign grace. Sometimes, when I see some of the worst characters in the street, I feel as if my heart must burst forth in tears of gratitude that God has never let me act as they have done! I have thought, if God had left me alone, and had not touched me by His grace, what a great sinner I should have been! I should have run to the utmost lengths of sin, dived into the very depths of evil, nor should I have stopped at any vice or folly, if God had not restrained me. I feel that I should have been a very king of sinners, if God had let me alone. I cannot understand the reason why I am saved, except upon the ground that God would have it so. I cannot, if I look ever so earnestly, discover any kind of reason in myself why I should be a partaker of Divine grace. If I am not at this moment without Christ, it is only because Christ Jesus would have His will with me, and that will was that I should be with Him where He is, and should share His glory. I can put the crown nowhere but upon the head of Him whose mighty grace has saved me from going down into the pit. Looking back on my past life, I can see that the dawning of it all was of God; of God effectively. I took no torch with which to light the sun, but the sun enlightened me. I did not commence my spiritual life—no, I rather kicked, and struggled against the things of the Spirit: when He drew me, for a time I did not run after Him: there was a natural hatred in my soul of everything holy and good. Wooings were lost upon me—warnings were cast to the wind—thunders were despised; and as for the whispers of His love, they were rejected as being less than nothing and vanity. But, sure I am, I can say now, speaking on behalf of myself, "He only is my salvation." It was He who turned my heart, and brought me down on my knees before Him. I can in very deed, say with Doddridge and Toplady—

"Grace taught my soul to pray,
And made my eyes o'erflow;"

and coming to this moment, I can add—

"'Tis grace has kept me to this day,
And will not let me go."

Well can I remember the manner in which I learned the doctrines of grace in a single instant. Born, as all of us are by nature, an Arminian, I still believed the old things I had heard continually from the pulpit, and did not see the grace of God. When I was coming to Christ, I thought I was doing it all myself, and though I sought the Lord earnestly, I had no idea the Lord was seeking me. I do not think the young convert is at first aware of this. I can recall the very day and hour when first I received those truths in my own soul—when they were, as John Bunyan says, burnt into my heart as with a hot iron, and I can recollect how I felt that I had grown on a sudden from a babe into a man—that I had made progress in Scriptural knowledge, through having found, once for all, the clue to the truth of God. One week-night, when I was sitting in the house of God, I was not thinking much about the preacher's sermon, for I did not believe it. The thought struck me, How did you come to be a Christian? I sought the Lord. But how did you come to seek the Lord? The truth flashed across my mind in a moment—I should not have sought Him unless there had been some previous influence in my mind to make me seek Him. I prayed, thought I, but then I asked myself, How came I to pray? I was induced to pray by reading the Scriptures. How came I to read the Scriptures? I did read them, but what led me to do so? Then, in a moment, I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He was the Author of my faith, and so the whole doctrine of grace opened up to me, and from that doctrine I have not departed to this day, and I desire to make this my constant confession, "I ascribe my change wholly to God."_
rest of the sermon found here spurgeon.org

3) scripture
Remember John 3:16 needs to be told in context! John 3:14-18 (world is already condemned, if that is the case how can they on their own choose to beleive?)

John 6- all who are saved are given to Christ by God.

John 10:28-30- No one can snatch them from Christ or His father (no-one means us as well, we are not greater than God)

A God who plans salvation, but who can't prevent us from losing it due to our flesh is a pretty weak god-imho

SBG are you saying once saved one never sins? Paul in his later letters calls himself Chief among sinners (1 Timothy 1:15) not once was but in the present tense. He still believed He was a sinner. So Paul lost his salvation?

I know that this will only stir up more but healthy debate is fun!


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## blindhog (Mar 18, 2007)

I am glad He says I can depend on Him instead of depending on "me".

If you think you can lose salvation based on something you do or don't do after being saved,
then you are not resting and depending on Jesus,
but trusting in your own action and will to "keep" yourself saved.

Jesus finished the WORK.  By grace, not works.


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## SBG (Mar 18, 2007)

addictedtodeer said:


> I know that this will only stir up more but healthy debate is fun!



Perhaps there should be a thread for the predestination vs. free will debate. That'd be a goodun.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 18, 2007)

I'm all for it. Remember, I've been on both sides of that one. As long as we do it right, because that one gets people's emotions up


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 18, 2007)

to be honest, i didn't think i'd see to many people on here with similar views as mine. I'm pleasantly surprised


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## addictedtodeer (Mar 18, 2007)

A question I have for those who feel you can loose your salvation: 
At what point do you loose it?
Sin is any disobedience against God, so telling a "white" lie does it? Not reporting everything on our taxes? Not obeying the speed limit? Which little infraction looses us our slavation?

We are so prone to over look the "little" sins in our lives.

I just assume that those who believe in loosing their salvation must live in fear that everyday they will commit the sin or sins that cause them to loose it. Is that the case? How do you support your view with scripture?

I really look at that and can not understand it. It must  be dreadful to live everyday before a holy God knowing that it may be the last day of your salvation only to be forever doomed to ImadummyImadummyImadummyImadummy.


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## JuliaH (Mar 18, 2007)

addictedtodeer said:


> A question I have for those who feel you can loose your salvation:
> At what point do you loose it?
> Sin is any disobedience against God, so telling a "white" lie does it? Not reporting everything on our taxes? Not obeying the speed limit? Which little infraction looses us our slavation?
> 
> ...



Gosh, I don't live in fear of losing my salvation at all   I know some who think if they don't go to church every Sunday they are in danger of losing their souls... but that is not me.  But, on the other hand, I do believe that I need to hold fast to that which I have believed until the day of my eternal rest 

If we are never in any danger... why would the writer to the Hebrews (Hebrews 2:1-3) say:

1 We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 

2 For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 

3 how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 

This, to me, says if we turn our back on our salvation, we might just get what we deserve instead of what we hope for.  

Julia


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 18, 2007)

like i said earlier Julia, you won't lose your eternal salvation, but the " joy of God's salvation"

Yes, that will be what you deserve. Communion with God is vital to any christian. I can tell you from my own experience that when you depart from walking with God, you are in essence alone. Your guilty feelings will catch up with you. You can try and run things by yourself. This is freewill. Your daily living. God does allow you to do such. He does not make your daily decisions. However, you can go to him and ask for his grace and help and advice if you may. When you turn from him, you are taking him out of he equation and thus walking alone. Has man ever been able to do such? We always fail miserably. I have. I know this to be true. When you hit rock bottom, he is still there waiting for you to turn back to him. God wants to help you, to father you thru this walk because he wants you. Period. He knows you can't do it alone but does he not promise to never leave you? If his promise is to never leave you, even in that low valley, how can one of his truly be seperated. Christ makes intercession for us.

Isn't that what the great poem " Footprints " all about. When we fall, does he not carry us? 

We are bought. We are a purchased possession. We are in reality "owned" by Christ. He promises to never lose one of his. Enough said, i feel.


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## StriperAddict (Mar 18, 2007)

Thanks for the notes here folks, good debate.  adpruitt2, I agree wholeheartedly with the biblical take that Jesus "knows those who are His" and that we are "sealed" by Him until the day of redemption.

I haven't read all the earlier posts, so if this repeats, my apologies.  I just wanted to point out that the judgement seat of Christ referred in the NT is for believers ONLY.  The "fear" we as believers ought to have is NOT about loosing the "gift" of eternal life, but loosing some (if not ALL!) of our heavenly "rewards" because we failed to "abide in the vine", Jesus Christ!  What a believer does for Christ as she/he "walks in the Spirit" will be the ONLY thing that will bring these "rewards".  The scripture goes on to say that "rewards" may be "burned up", but the believer will still be saved.  
To recap,  salvation in Christ (eternal life, heaven) is NEVER mentioned as a "reward"...  it is always mentioned as "the free GIFT of God".   Heavenly REWARDS are what comes out of a life lived in obiedence to the Lord Jesus, by His Spirt which lives in you.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 18, 2007)

i can agree with that Striperaddict. This very argument just goes against the "Nature" of God.


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## JuliaH (Mar 18, 2007)

It has been a good subject, and is worth resting on now, imho 

Enjoyed the conversation guys 

Julia


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 18, 2007)

see ya, but waiting on BubbaT to get his view


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## SBG (Mar 18, 2007)

addictedtodeer said:


> A question I have for those who feel you can loose your salvation:
> At what point do you loose it?



I've asked the same question a lot of times when this subject comes up. It is the one question that will remain unanswered, since there is no scriptural foundation for it.

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 18, 2007)

SBG, you freewill or predestinatarian? Just curious.


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## tcoker (Mar 18, 2007)

JuliaH said:


> And you have hit the nail on the head exactly with this statement... I have mixed feelings about whether a person who rebels wholeheartedly was ever really Christian... but it is not us who are smart enough to know.
> 
> My feelings, as I said above, have changed from staunchly "Once Saved, Always Saved" to an attitude of cautiousness. I do NOT believe I have to "work my way to heaven" nor do I believe that I can do anything I want, once saved, and remain in the hands of God... I think if I want to remove myself from His grace and care, He might just let me...
> 
> ...



I agree with this totally (especially the actively reading and learning more).  Once you accept Christ as your personal Lord and savior you then have the Holy Spirit within you to guide you.  It takes more than just ".... by mouth..." to be saved, you must confess it with your whole heart.  

At the same time there is no unforgivable sin either.


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## tcoker (Mar 18, 2007)

Point Blanks said:


> Those who think "once saved always saved" need to read the Old Testament again.If your not enlightened the 1st time,re-read it.
> 
> Obedience is the word.



I respectfully disagree totally.  All works get you are a good life.  Through faith is the only way to salvation.  When Isreal was being brought out of persecution Obedience was the only way to show faithfulness to God (and no other god).  Sacrifices were made for sins,atonement,fellowship,etc. Christ was the ultimate sacrifice for all our sins.  If someone doesn't believe that, they can (which is physically impossible) be totally obedient to the laws of the Old Testament and never get to heaven.  Many of the laws written in old testament times were to help protect people from disease,bacteria,etc, like not eating swine or lepersey and several other laws.  Once you have accepted Christ for what He is and what He did, then you find yourself becoming more obedient and doing more works.


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## tcoker (Mar 18, 2007)

We all have,do and will sin, so that's a great question about "when do you lose your salvation?"  To me what I get from reading and studying is that we will sin but as long as we still accept Christ as our Lord and Savior then we are still saved regarless of what sin we've commited, If we are already saved I believe that I'm gonna try to make the choice that doesn't contradict what Christ wants me to do anyway.


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 18, 2007)

tcoker said:


> I agree with this totally (especially the actively reading and learning more).  Once you accept Christ as your personal Lord and savior you then have the Holy Spirit within you to guide you.  It takes more than just ".... by mouth..." to be saved, you must confess it with your whole heart.
> 
> At the same time there is no unforgivable sin either.[/QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## tcoker (Mar 18, 2007)

So are you saying since you've been saved you haven't commited a sin?? I say that is impossible or you would be perfect in the eyes of God and no mortal man is perfect (since Christ). We sin everyday, when we speed or smoke or all sorts of "petty things" to adultery,stealing,lieing.  At what point do you "... no longer [have] any sacrifice for sin left..."? 

"we will sin but as long as we still accept Christ as our Lord and Savior then we are still saved regarless of what sin we've commited" (from my previous post).  If you denounce Christ then you have no longer accepted him as your savior.  Right? i'm asking here?


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 18, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> Yeah, if you still live under the law. I don't nor do i think any Christian does. I've read it several times. Enlighttened already.
> 
> Obedience=law=pharisees=Christs rebuke




Not that we live under the law, however All scripture is benefical 1Tim 3:16. That includes the Hebrew scriptures. In them you can see God's Purpose, his personality, good and bad outcomes of his servants. You are right the Pharisees went way too far, and forgot the purpose of the law. Remember Jesus said do what they (pharisees) say, not what they do


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 18, 2007)

tcoker said:


> So are you saying since you've been saved you haven't commited a sin?? I say that is impossible or you would be perfect in the eyes of God and no mortal man is perfect (since Christ). We sin everyday, when we speed or smoke or all sorts of "petty things" to adultery,stealing,lieing.  At what point do you "... no longer [have] any sacrifice for sin left..."?
> 
> "we will sin but as long as we still accept Christ as our Lord and Savior then we are still saved regarless of what sin we've commited" (from my previous post).  If you denounce Christ then you have no longer accepted him as your savior.  Right? i'm asking here?




my view is a little different. Since Jesus said " a sin against the holy spirit would not be forgiven" and I believe the holy spirt is a helper for us, God's power to accomplish his will. If we know God's will, and the holy spirit is urging us to obey, and we rebel and go the opposite way, and we have the ability to go the right way, then we have crossed the line. That falls into willful sining, like Paul said and there is no forgiveness. Only God can really Judge when someone has gone that far. That is why it is important for us to do our best, and not take is undeserved kindness for granted. He is not a pushover, a whimp, but merciful and firm. If you promised your son your inhertance if he did what you asked of him, and he tried  to do his best to perform your wishes, wouldn't you reward him still, even if he had not been perfect. However what if he just didn't try, he knew your will, but didn't really care, Would you still give him the inhertance even though he showed no appreciation? If you did , do you think he would use it wisely?


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 18, 2007)

SBG said:


> God does make the determination...and He instructs us of it in His word. He would not make such a serious matter unclear.
> 
> Do you know anyone that has been saved that has ever willfully sinned afterwards? You pointed out Hebrews 6 yourself. How can sinning after salvation cause one to lose their salvation? It can't, or all would be lost.
> 
> ...




Satan. he was immortal. Obvisiouly he had salvation. He had what we want to obtain. He sinned. He will be destroyed. 
ADAM and EV. They both had salvation. Would have lived forever. They willful sinned. They died and are gone forever. They choose death over salvation. Just like Deut says God put before us : a Choice.


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## SBG (Mar 19, 2007)

DartonHunter101 said:


> Satan. he was immortal. Obvisiouly he had salvation. He had what we want to obtain. He sinned. He will be destroyed.
> ADAM and EV. They both had salvation. Would have lived forever. They willful sinned. They died and are gone forever. They choose death over salvation. Just like Deut says God put before us : a Choice.



Satan is an angel. He does not require salvation.

Adam and Eve did sin; however, God made a covering for them from the first sacrifice of innocent blood. 

Do you believe that Adam and Eve are in he!!?


Willful sin or unwillful is irrelevant. All sin after they have been saved.


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## SBG (Mar 19, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> SBG, you freewill or predestinatarian? Just curious.



Whosoever will


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## PWalls (Mar 19, 2007)

It is amazing to me sometimes how Bible verses can be read by three different individuals and how they choose to interpret those verses and come up with three different interpretations.

Freewill or predestination is a subject that is not nearly as important as once(if) saved, always saved in my opinion (don't get me wrong, it's important in its own right). However, I could not live if I knew that every single sin I committ would turn me back towards the road to He!!.

Anybody that believes you can lose your salvation gonna answer the question that has been asked a few times? If you're saved and relying on Jesus to get to Heaven, what do you have to do to lose that assurance?


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 19, 2007)

Predestination and election, are the backbone of "once saved, always saved". When viewed properly and in the right frame of mind, they give "assurance" that God is in control, his plan carries out till the end, with the results of glorification of his elect. It is set in stone and will happen. So to me, if the choice was mine, i could not choose or possibly mess it up. However, it was not and thank God it wasn't. God makes perfect choices, else he would not be a perfect God.


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## PWalls (Mar 19, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> Predestination and election, are the backbone of "once saved, always saved". When viewed properly and in the right frame of mind, they give "assurance" that God is in control, his plan carries out till the end, with the results of glorification of his elect. It is set in stone and will happen. So to me, if the choice was mine, i could not choose or possibly mess it up. However, it was not and thank God it wasn't. God makes perfect choices, else he would not be a perfect God.



I understand your position. However, I was attempting to get the thread back to the original post. We can start another one on predestination or freewill if you like.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 19, 2007)

understand, but it is addressing the original post. I'm not debating freewill or predestination. I'm supporting preservation of the saints. I'm just using those doctrines as my proof, that's all.


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## Spotlite (Mar 19, 2007)

Ask Judas ...............


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 19, 2007)

PWalls said:


> It is amazing to me sometimes how Bible verses can be read by three different individuals and how they choose to interpret those verses and come up with three different interpretations.
> 
> Freewill or predestination is a subject that is not nearly as important as once(if) saved, always saved in my opinion (don't get me wrong, it's important in its own right). However, I could not live if I knew that every single sin I committ would turn me back towards the road to He!!.
> 
> Anybody that believes you can lose your salvation gonna answer the question that has been asked a few times? If you're saved and relying on Jesus to get to Heaven, what do you have to do to lose that assurance?




You are wanting a single act, that is very similar to what the pharisess did with the law. God said not to work on Sabbath. 
exodus 20:8-10   --“Remembering the sabbath day to hold it sacred, you are to render service and you must do all your work six days. But the seventh day is a sabbath to Jehovah your God. You must not do any work, you nor your son nor your daughter, your slave man nor your slave girl nor your domestic animal nor your alien resident who is inside your gates.

They wanted to say exactly what is work? They decide, not God, That you could not walk but so far, any more would be construed as work. By Jesus time, the scribes and the pharisess had added countless traditions to the law. Jesus exposed those men as hypocrites, because they has lost sight of the righteous principles of the law Matt 23: 23-24

“Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU give the tenth of the mint and the dill and the cumin, but YOU have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness. These things it was binding to do, yet not to disregard the other things. Blind guides, who strain out the gnat but gulp down the camel!


Just food for thought!


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 19, 2007)




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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 19, 2007)

Ask Judas what?


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## Spotlite (Mar 19, 2007)

PWalls said:


> Anybody that believes you can lose your salvation gonna answer the question that has been asked a few times? If you're saved and relying on Jesus to get to Heaven, what do you have to do to lose that assurance?



For starters you could deny him. This is a battle that can never be won. Those that believe you can loose it believe you have to live a clean and holy life.

SOME of those that believe you cant loose it, use it as a crutch to live the way they want to and not really changing anything they claim to be saved from. Cant see a difference in their lifestyle before or after.    

Then you have the elite that say you were never really saved if you do something that made you fall, but then again Jesus told us how to help and restore a backsliding brother. Its almost like they are saying Jesus just half heartedly saved you to start with.


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 19, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> Ask Judas what?



Judas was cosen by the hand of Jesus, right? There are tens of thousands of examples. Look at the nation of Israel, They where chosen, right? God says so himself many times, calls them a chosen nation, a chosen race. They had salvation and god's blessing. They lost  it because of their acts and deeds brought on by a bad heart. They Choose that direction and was excuted by God.

No one here is called out by name in the bible, right??? How could you get in a better position than the nation of Israel??


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## SBG (Mar 19, 2007)

Spotlite said:


> Ask Judas ...............



But Judas wasn't saved.


Again, with scripture, what does it require for one to lose their salvation?

Is it sin? How many?


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 19, 2007)

SHOW me where israel lost their eternal salvation. How many times do i need to say this. Israel was cut off from God in this life. Loss of fellowship with him. Show me eternally and i'll shut up. But you can not. Israel was chosen as God's people. What did they have that others didn't? Fellowship with God himself. What did he cut off? Fellowship. Over and over and over. Fellowship. Romans once again talks about Israel's future. It's okay, no need to worry about them.


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 19, 2007)

Spotlite I see it the same way. I think we live in a world that doesn't like to be responsible, nor accountable. This atmostphere has affect thinking, thus once saved always saved doctorine. Everyone has an excused, no one is at fault, do what you want and its ok? It is just another trick by Satan. In the garden of eve, satan said that ev would be better off not doing as God said, disobedince. She disobeyed , she is dead forever. She had everlasting life, now she doesn't. She was not only chosen by God, but directly formed by God. She had a choice. She made it. She is gone.


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## SBG (Mar 19, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> SHOW me where israel lost their eternal salvation. How many times do i need to say this. Israel was cut off from God in this life. Loss of fellowship with him. Show me eternally and i'll shut up. But you can not. Israel was chosen as God's people. What did they have that others didn't? Fellowship with God himself. What did he cut off? Fellowship. Over and over and over. Fellowship. Romans once again talks about Israel's future. It's okay, no need to worry about them.



Israel is still God's chosen people...another straw removed.


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## Spotlite (Mar 19, 2007)

SBG said:


> But Judas wasn't saved.
> 
> 
> Again, with scripture, what does it require for one to lose their salvation?
> ...



If you deny him he will deny you.............


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## Spotlite (Mar 19, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> SHOW me where israel lost their eternal salvation. How many times do i need to say this. Israel was cut off from God in this life. Loss of fellowship with him. Show me eternally and i'll shut up. But you can not. Israel was chosen as God's people. What did they have that others didn't? Fellowship with God himself. What did he cut off? Fellowship. Over and over and over. Fellowship. Romans once again talks about Israel's future. It's okay, no need to worry about them.



They were cut off, glad you see that. But they will have to back and make sacrifices later if they want to gain eternal salvation. Had they been once saved always saved, they would not had been cut off............


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## Spotlite (Mar 19, 2007)

SBG said:


> Israel is still God's chosen people...another straw removed.



They still gonna have to make some sacrifices in their alloted time after the Gentile dispensation is over. Far from once saved always saved............


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## Spotlite (Mar 19, 2007)

DartonHunter101 said:


> Spotlite I see it the same way. I think we live in a world that doesn't like to be responsible, nor accountable. This atmostphere has affect thinking, thus once saved always saved doctorine. Everyone has an excused, no one is at fault, do what you want and its ok? It is just another trick by Satan. In the garden of eve, satan said that ev would be better off not doing as God said, disobedince. She disobeyed , she is dead forever. She had everlasting life, now she doesn't. She was not only chosen by God, but directly formed by God. She had a choice. She made it. She is gone.


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## SBG (Mar 19, 2007)

Spotlite said:


>



And this doctrine of apostacy of the believer is based on the unscriptural beliefs such as:

Satan was saved and is now lost.

Adam and Eve are in he!!.

Judas was saved.

I appreciate the fact that many of you "believe" you can lose your salvation...I used to be one of you until God revealed to me the clear truths of the Word.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 19, 2007)

You guys are funny. your logic is so humanistic it makes me smile. Affected thinking? Trick by Satan? Nice. You guys made my morning. I needed a good chuckle.

Well, you deny him from conception, so an argument on eternal salvation with that verse is going to make for a pretty quick argument and you will lose.

Dartonhunter, did you run out of scripture references because i noticed you say " the way i see it".  World according to logic. Scary.

Show me where Eve was banished to eternal ImadummyImadummyImadummyImadummy. What happened to Eve? OKAY, ONE MORE TIME, ADAM AND EVE WERE REMOVED FROM THE GARDEN AND LOST WHAT? FELLOWSHIP WITH GOD. My goodness guys, it's right there slapping you in the face.

If Satan is trying to deceive me into thinking my God is allpowerful, allknowing ,a promise keeper, able to deliver his plan to completetion, then yeah, i guess Satan is doing a good job.


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 19, 2007)

Hebrews 10: 38-39 But my righteous one will live by reason of faith, and, if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.Now we are not the sort that shrink back to destruction, but the sort that have faith to the preserving alive of the soul.

Paul said shrink back to destruction, what does that mean? He was not just talking about a physical death, all die that death, but eternal death, disapproval of God. In verse 24-25 he just stated there is no more forgiveness for willful sinning.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 19, 2007)

Israel, not eternally, romans!!!!!


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 19, 2007)

Dude, you really need to sit back and reread Hebrews. I'm not sure your in the same zipcode with what your thinking and what it's meaning, imho.


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 19, 2007)

Well I am going to let this one rest. If you don't see it, you don't. You have that choice! I enjoyed and the best to all!


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 19, 2007)

disapproval of God does not equal eternal death. Do you want the 50,000 scriptures to back that one up?


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 19, 2007)

He's a father. He chastises his children. He aint always happy with us.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 19, 2007)

I have not read all the posts, but we have had this discussion on here once before....

Bottom line:

IF SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED!

Salvation is a gift. God Predistenates, it says so in the Bible.

SBG & aspruitt2 have given plenty of examples to prove this.

Humans want to think they are in control, that they are going to decide what happens to them, Wrong! That is nothing more than applying humanistic thinking to a God that is above us, that His ways are not our ways. He is a Holy and just God. No one better to decide who is Saved and who is not than God. After all He is the one that made each and everyone of us, for His good pleasure.

I am not looking for a reply to this, and will not reply again. All who believe that they are in control of their Salvation need to study and pray that God shows you the Truth.

I will be praying for you also.

DB BB


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## FishFanatic (Mar 19, 2007)

Wow...what a thread.  I got to this one late, so I had to read all five pages just now.  Saw a bunch of comments I wanted to respond to, but I guess in summary this is my view.  

If we were to all go with the view of losing salvation, what kind of point scale should we use to determine when someone actually loses their salvation?   Everyone be honest with themselves, there is no way of really, truly knowing how far someone has fallen away with out adding some points to the different transgressions right?  Just from this reasoning alone, we can see how confusing this would get right off the bat.  That's because this is something man would create.  This is why God emphasizes salvation as a gift, not something that can be earned.  

Someone made a good point though.  Did the individual ever really accept Christ?  Well, know one really knows aside from that individual and Christ.  But in my own simple thinking I do like the idea of maybe an individual who has totally abandoned God may never have really tasted of God.  

Also, adpruitt, my question for you.  Well, couple of questions.  First, what denomination adheres to the predestination view?  I admit I was not very knowledgeable on predestination, BUT after reading all your verses in the last five pages and your thoughts, I have a small grasp on it...lol.  laugh out loud......

Second I guess is not really a question, but the first thing that pops into my mind when I think of a church that adheres to the predestination view, is a huge need for control over the membership.  How would anyone know if someone has been "chosen?"  Do you just accept their word?  I ask, because I believe in free will and humans choosing Christ, and that leaves us with no choice but to accept someone's word at our church.  Anyhow, this is a great thread, and there seems to be many verses that favor both sides of the issue.  Some of the verses(from both sides) seem concrete, and then there are a bunch of others (from both sides) that are really being stretched to advocate the view.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 19, 2007)

Fishfanatic, howdy! Okay, first, I am what many call a Primitive Baptist. Hardshell. Oldschool. You see, at one time Missionary Baptists didn't exist. Just Baptists. Then freewill crept into the Baptists and they split. Those that took they new way were called New School or Missionary Baptists, and those that stayed original were Primitive, or Old School Baptists. History can definately support me on this. What's funny, is that most missionary churches, if you read their Articles of Faith, 90% read like a Primitive's Bap. but they don't preach it anymore. Check it out for yourself. It's amusing.

Primitive Baptists are so laid back concerning control its not funny. It's God's choice not ours. If someone has an express desire to worship God, then i is God that draws him there, so why question it? You can't call Christ "LORD" if you haven't been quickened by God, that is to be made alive by God, because if your not spiritually alive you can not call him "LORD". Impossible. Do you have to take people's word for it? I guess but since they didn't make the choice in the first place, why wonder or be bothered by it? 

Eternally, you can not have it both ways. Either you choose or God chooses. No grey area here.

Now, the Bible clearly states God did the choosing before the foundation of the world. Point blank. 

The question now is why did God choose some and not others? This is a tough one for most to grasp and where most people run away from Election. Election is really God choosing. Predestination is just the final oucome.

Now some say, freewiller's if i may, that God looked down across humanity and choose believers. All that accepted Christ. This is the elect. see, now you can have it both ways. God chooses and man chooses. Sounds good on the surface but let's see what God says about it.

Romans 8:28...........to them who are the called according to his purpose. ( God's purpose )

I know a hundred more but let's go with that. What is God's purpose.

Wait, i tell you what, I'm stealing this thread and getting off topic. I'll start a new thread because I don't want to take away anymore from this one. Okay?


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## FishFanatic (Mar 19, 2007)

Sounds good, start a new thread.  And thanks for explaining the control question.  That makes sense.


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## Spotlite (Mar 19, 2007)

SBG said:


> And this doctrine of apostacy of the believer is based on the unscriptural beliefs such as:
> 
> Satan was saved and is now lost.
> 
> ...




Not really into wondering about Satan and his mishap, I already know his outcome, never even wondered what happened to Adam and Eve, and all Judas had to do was say Im sorry. Not gonna get into a low blow down grading of beliefs either. Just scripture.

2nd Peter 2:20-21

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commanfment delivered unto them. 

Now why would Jesus tell us to restore the fallen brother if he couldnt fall?


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 19, 2007)

absolutely true, for isn't your guilt much stronger after you know right from wrong? Still doesn't say anything about losing your eternal salvation. 

You can fall. Everyday. But don't interpret that to mean losing salvation. Even Paul says he fell constantly. Reckon Paul made it?


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## addictedtodeer (Mar 19, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> Predestination and election, are the backbone of "once saved, always saved". When viewed properly and in the right frame of mind, they give "assurance" that God is in control, his plan carries out till the end, with the results of glorification of his elect. It is set in stone and will happen. So to me, if the choice was mine, i could not choose or possibly mess it up. However, it was not and thank God it wasn't. God makes perfect choices, else he would not be a perfect God.



Very good point!
Once saved always saved depends on a sovereign God who alone is able to keep those who are saved from falling away.

Sovereignty of God in all things, total depravity of all humanity is essential to believe once saved always saved.

Jerry Fawell (who is opposed to predestination, election, etc.) once stated you must believe in predestination, etc. to believe in the "perseverance of the saints". He stated that they all work together or don't work at all.

Predestination, total depravity, election, perseverance of the saints all work together and depend on each other but most importantly they depend on the doctrine of a totally sovereign God.  They work together and therefore are very hard to separate.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 19, 2007)

yup!


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## SBG (Mar 19, 2007)

Spotlite said:


> Not really into wondering about Satan and his mishap, I already know his outcome, never even wondered what happened to Adam and Eve, and all Judas had to do was say Im sorry. Not gonna get into a low blow down grading of beliefs either. Just scripture.
> 
> 2nd Peter 2:20-21
> 
> ...



Those verses you provide are cherry-picked out of their context. 

Peter clarifies this seemingly supportive verse by continuing in verse 22:

 "But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire." 

It is obvious that the "dogs" described here are unbelievers that have placed themselves in amongst the sheep. Believers are always referred to as sheep, never as dogs.


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## FishFanatic (Mar 19, 2007)

This is what I'm thinking.  Using myself as an example.  I was not a Christian in 2001.  I was newly married and two months into my marriage my wife cheated on me.  Almost divorced, but stayed together.  She came from a Christian home/background, so she wanted us to start going to church.  I'm thinking, that I'll do whatever if it will get her to stay faithful.  Long story short, after sitting in an independant Baptist church for two months, I got saved.  I made the decision and I have been living for Christ ever since.

Now in your view pruitt, those events that occured leading me to the church, then the two months in the church were all God playing with the puppet strings so to speak, and then made me His?  I never had a choice in the matter?  

I'm just trying to look at it from this perspective, as I have never done that before.


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## reylamb (Mar 19, 2007)

Any attempts to use Old Testament examples of either Adam and Eve or the nation of Isreal to prove or disprove eternal salvation, or once saved always saved, is faulty from the beginning.  God, after the fall of man, promised 1 perfect sacrifice for all sins and only one.  Prior to that the law was established, and imperfect animal sacrifices were the means to forgiveness.  After the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Christ the perfect sacrifice was complete, the law was complete and we now live in a new age, the age of grace.

In the Old Testament the law stated continuing sacrifices had to be made for the atonement of sins.  Why?  They were an imperfect sacrifice.  Christ was the perfect sacrifice.  As I said, any attempt to use Old Testament examples as loosing salvation are flawed from the beginning.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 19, 2007)

God isn't a puppetmaster so to speak, but i understand your question. You were his from the foundation of the world. Not just once you commited. When you commited, your eyes were opened to who you have always been, not who you just became. Understand? Hard, i know.

The lambs book of life was written from the foundation of the world the bible says. God choose his elect then and prepared his plan then. While I believe God works in this world, i believe it is to get his people to see what they truly are and to glorify him for that. 

I do not believe God is sitting at his desk with a giant sharpie ready to cross names off every time we mess up. You were his, and have always been his, and now that you know that, how much better will it be for you to worship God? Your appreciation of him as "Father" will truely come forth for now you know just how long he's truly loved you.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 19, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> God isn't a puppetmaster so to speak, but i understand your question. You were his from the foundation of the world. Not just once you commited. When you commited, your eyes were opened to who you have always been, not who you just became. Understand? Hard, i know.
> 
> The lambs book of life was written from the foundation of the world the bible says. God choose his elect then and prepared his plan then. While I believe God works in this world, i believe it is to get his people to see what they truly are and to glorify him for that.
> 
> I do not believe God is sitting at his desk with a giant sharpie ready to cross names off every time we mess up. You were his, and have always been his, and now that you know that, how much better will it be for you to worship God? Your appreciation of him as "Father" will truely come forth for now you know just how long he's truly loved you.



I know I said I wasn't going to reply anymore but, I have to..........

This is the TRUTH!!! AMEN

We just had a sermon on this on Sunday....

DB BB


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## addictedtodeer (Mar 19, 2007)

FishFanatic said:


> This is what I'm thinking.  Using myself as an example.  I was not a Christian in 2001.  I was newly married and two months into my marriage my wife cheated on me.  Almost divorced, but stayed together.  She came from a Christian home/background, so she wanted us to start going to church.  I'm thinking, that I'll do whatever if it will get her to stay faithful.  Long story short, after sitting in an independant Baptist church for two months, I got saved.  I made the decision and I have been living for Christ ever since.
> 
> Now in your view pruitt, those events that occured leading me to the church, then the two months in the church were all God playing with the puppet strings so to speak, and then made me His?  I never had a choice in the matter?
> 
> I'm just trying to look at it from this perspective, as I have never done that before.



If i may, look at the beauty of it! 
A sinner condemned and deserving of HE!! is choosen from before time not for anything you did or will do but because it pleased this Holy God to save you for His own. 

He orchestrated the whole event, kept you from death until He saved you, by His own power. He didn't have to, yet he choose to lavish His eternal love upon you, and because He did it, that love stays for all eternity. 

You as well as all who have been and will be saved are running willingly towards He!! and this Holy God steps in to rescue you from your own sinful desire.

Since He can save me, He can save you, and he can save anyone He so chooses to do.  Whomever is saved is done so out of His mere good pleasure.

As a result we may shout with joy and gladly say that we are doing Better than we deserve thanks to a Holy God who choose to love an sinner like me!

Sorry I just love the idea that God would choose a sinner like me to be His own! I owe Him everything because he did it all!


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## Spotlite (Mar 19, 2007)

SBG said:


> Those verses you provide are cherry-picked out of their context.
> 
> Peter clarifies this seemingly supportive verse by continuing in verse 22:
> 
> ...



I dont think they are out of context at all. It plainly says after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of Jesus, then turn back 

 They cant be unbelievers as you you speak of and believers at the same time. Vs 22 basically backed up what was said and used as an example that it has happened.


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## SBG (Mar 19, 2007)

Spotlite said:


> I dont think they are out of context at all. It plainly says after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of Jesus, then turn back
> 
> They cant be unbelievers as you you speak of and believers at the same time. Vs 22 basically backed up what was said and used as an example that it has happened.




So at what point do you revert from being a sheep to being a dog?

Certainly a matter as important as that would be clearly illustrated in the Word.


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## FishFanatic (Mar 19, 2007)

Okay, sounds good so far.  I'm getting hung up on this though.  If people were to relinquish the idea of free will and choosing to accept Christ, because of the belief that God will take them whenever He determines, why do these people need to be concerned with trying to get into a church to hear the word of God or anything of that nature?  Why not act like a heathen and God will one day just say I want you to live for me now?  I'm having problems trying to put this in words.  

The puppet strings were a bad choice of words.  I know that is not accurate.  

Someone made the point earlier, What is the point of the great commission?  How would you explain that pruitt?  I'm not trying to be rude, but I guess that sums up what I'm trying to say best.


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## PWalls (Mar 19, 2007)

Another question for the elect as well.

How do you have children and rear them up in love not knowing whether or not God predestined them from before time to be one of His elect? How do you sleep at night knowing that your child could be separated from you for eternity just because God didn't want them in Heaven?


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## FishFanatic (Mar 19, 2007)

Good question Walls.  What would be the point of raising them to know Christ?


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## PWalls (Mar 19, 2007)

FishFanatic said:


> Good question Walls.  What would be the point of raising them to know Christ?



That isn't how it works to my understanding with people who hold to Calvinism (or its form).

You raise you children up in the ways of the Lord and then hope/pray that they then show the true evidence that God has called them as one of the elect. You don't raise them to know Christ as anyone not of the elect couldn't know Christ anyway. All you can do is hope.


And, let me show the other side of the coin. As a parent with children, I don't know if mine will be saved one day either. All I can do is train them up as instructed in Scripture and hope as well. However, my hope is grounded in the belief that God wants everyone (goes back to the words "all" and "whosoever") to be saved and offers that choice for my children to take. It is my belief that 2 out of the 3 already have and the third is still too young.


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## Spotlite (Mar 19, 2007)

SBG said:


> So at what point do you revert from being a sheep to being a dog?
> 
> Certainly a matter as important as that would be clearly illustrated in the Word.



Its a matter of being obedient and disobedient. You either live for God or you dont. He can tolerate being hot and can tolerate being cold, but he cant stand you being luke warm. Fence strattlers of living like they want to Monday thru Saturday then hit the Church doors on Sunday shouting are a perfect example of that. Examples are given multiple times in 2nd Peter, and in Revelations 2 . Lest not forget all scripture is given for us to live by, not just some. We cant pick and choose. (before anyone says it, we are no longer under the law so no I aint gonna stone my kids)

You never answered my question either, why did Jesus tell us to restore our fallen brother if he couldnt fall?  

Now I am finished with this subject, I do respect you Russ, we wear different colored hats, but I cant give you something that does not belong to me, thats understanding of the Word. We only get that from God and sometimes I think we push it instead of giving a scripture and letting God take it from there. Kind of like getting the cart before the horse.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 19, 2007)

okay, one more before i have to leave for awhile.

You were taken officially when Christ said " IT IS FINISHED"

Spiritual beings will gravitate towards spiritual things. When ones eyes are opened, and yes i believe God quickens when his will is ready and on his time, not ours, then they will gravitate towards church, preaching, etc.

The great commision is nothing more than God wanting us and all to find HIS SHEEP and proclaim the GOOD NEWS and to explain WHO THEY ARE IN CHRIST. Not who they can become, but who they really are. They've already been bought. Christ did just that. Now he wants to let them know who they are so they CAN NOW FELLOWSHIP with him. It's pretty simple when you get down to it. God wants to be known and loved by those HE LOVED. As with Jacob and Esau, BEFRORE ANY OF US WERE BORN WITHOUT HAVING DONE GOOD OR EVIL, GOD LOVED SOME AND HE HATED OTHERS. God addresses wether or not that is fair or not by basically saying

" I am GOD. I can choose to love who I want, how I want, Where i want, When i want" Of course I'm paraphrasing it, but that's the 9th chapter of Romans.

If you are one of his, you have the ability to confess who Christ is and who you are, BECAUSE GOD CHOOSE YOU TOO.


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## Spotlite (Mar 19, 2007)

PWalls said:


> Another question for the elect as well.
> 
> How do you have children and rear them up in love not knowing whether or not God predestined them from before time to be one of His elect? How do you sleep at night knowing that your child could be separated from you for eternity just because God didn't want them in Heaven?



There are no scriptures to support that theory. God said it is not his will for any to perish. The promise of the Holy Ghost is for all. Sad to say, some reject.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 19, 2007)

Let the God of love and understanding make the choice. I feel better letting him be in control than my kids, or myself for that matter.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 19, 2007)

It is not for all nor can be. English words do not take the exact meaning of the Greek. I would encourage people here to get a translation with a Greek dictionary in the back. Helps a bunch. Like i posted about the word " world" in John 3:16. Not the whole wide world but as the Greek states" AN ORDERELY ARRANGEMENT" Kind of like the wide world of sports only encompasses sports, not the entire globe. The world of fishing, the world of figure skating, world of business, etc. Dig a little deeper.


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## PWalls (Mar 19, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> Let the God of love and understanding make the choice. I feel better letting him be in control than my kids, or myself for that matter.



Even knowing that God may not have chosen them to be His children? Even knowing that they may not get to spend eternity with God in Heaven but will have to spend eternity in a lake of fire?

Does that sound like a God of love and understanding?


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 19, 2007)

gotta go for now, will be in touch later


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 19, 2007)

God or man? Who's your faith in? It's deep and hard. It is against human nature to take MAN out of any equation. We want to be Godlike. I'll send up my prayers and hope for them to show evidence of their election just like any free will person hopes and prays for their child to accept Christ. Not much difference except the freewill person relies on man to choose and we like to leave it up to God.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 19, 2007)

now i really gotta go. look forward to reading your posts later


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## tcoker (Mar 19, 2007)

DartonHunter101, good point about my son's inheirtance, however the difference is we must first accept Christ as our savior. Not just follow laws, huge difference.  If you give your life to Christ as he did to us then your natural progression will to do things more like Christ did. So there is a difference between the two.


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## SBG (Mar 19, 2007)

Spotlite said:


> Its a matter of being obedient and disobedient. You either live for God or you dont. He can tolerate being hot and can tolerate being cold, but he cant stand you being luke warm. Fence strattlers of living like they want to Monday thru Saturday then hit the Church doors on Sunday shouting are a perfect example of that. Examples are given multiple times in 2nd Peter, and in Revelations 2 . Lest not forget all scripture is given for us to live by, not just some. We cant pick and choose. (before anyone says it, we are no longer under the law so no I aint gonna stone my kids)
> 
> You never answered my question either, why did Jesus tell us to restore our fallen brother if he couldnt fall?
> 
> Now I am finished with this subject, I do respect you Russ, we wear different colored hats, but I cant give you something that does not belong to me, thats understanding of the Word. We only get that from God and sometimes I think we push it instead of giving a scripture and letting God take it from there. Kind of like getting the cart before the horse.



You restore a brother that is backslid. You take the word fall much to fatalistically.

So what you are saying is that you don't have a clue when a person loses their salvation. One minute it is any sin that has not been asked to be forgiven...such as suicide, and the next it is that you have to deny Him, then it is the requirement of living obediently. What is it? Anyone? Why is it that a doctrine that some place so much emphasis on, can't be explained when asked about it?

It still amazes me that when you ask someone that believes "fall from grace" to support it in scripture, they ultimately let it rest with what they "believe."

You would think that a book that is so clear on what is required to be saved, would be at least as clear on what to avoid doing as not to lose one's free gift.


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## addictedtodeer (Mar 19, 2007)

Spotlite said:


> There are no scriptures to support that theory. God said it is not his will for any to perish. The promise of the Holy Ghost is for all. Sad to say, some reject.



I'm sorry but that verse is always misused. Look at 2 peter in context, who is He talking to?
_2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. _

"_not wishing any should perish_" refers to someone who is it?
The answer when you take it in context is the "you" written before it. "Any should perish" is referring to "you".
Who is this "you"?
verse one of that chapter contains the answer:
_This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, 
_

Beloved! Who are the beloved?
2 Peter 1:1
_To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:_

This letter was written to Christians, for their learning, encouragement and teaching. Peter wants Chrisitans to know that God desires that none of them will perish in the persecution they are facing, they will not loose their salvation!

You can not take "none should perish" out of context, it changes it into a meaning that never was there.

remember Context, context, context!


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## addictedtodeer (Mar 19, 2007)

"Calvinism" was the driving force behind the modern missions movement. See William Carey, David Brainard, George Whitfield, Jonathan Edwards (Sinners in the hands of an angry God...awesome!), John Piper. It does not stop the Great Commission but spurs it on!

Let me explain, when I used to preach I'd give an alter call, I'd pour my heart and soul into it and then wonder why no one would respond. What had I done wrong?  I was fearful of using the wrong words or stepping on toes. I was convinced that i could prevent someone from responding, what a dreadful thought!

Then I discovered what many others have salvation is up to God, wow did it change my approach! The gospel had to be presented all the time yet I found myself bolder,why?

Because it no longer depended on me getting it right! My job was to proclaim that there is a God who will save, that Christ has paid it all, that you must believe.  The results were now left up to God.  What a relief, I now realized I could not mess up the salvation process because it depended entirely upon God, I was merely to be faithful in proclaiming the gospel. No tricks, no gimmics, its awesome!

And again because God saved me I know He can save anyone anywhere so i must proclaim it whenever i get the chance. Results are in His department!


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## Spotlite (Mar 19, 2007)

SBG said:


> You restore a brother that is backslid. You take the word fall much to fatalistically.
> 
> So what you are saying is that you don't have a clue when a person loses their salvation. One minute it is any sin that has not been asked to be forgiven...such as suicide, and the next it is that you have to deny Him, then it is the requirement of living obediently. What is it? Anyone? Why is it that a doctrine that some place so much emphasis on, can't be explained when asked about it?
> 
> ...



Its there, what happens is those that dont believe say none of those scripture apply to them, they are all out of context and always talking to some other group. Taking fall fatalistically?  Either you fall or you dont. No-one said it was fatal, we were told to restore them. Results of not restoring them could be fatal, if not then there would be no need to restore them.  I dont have a clue when someone looses their salvation, not my department, I do know we cant continue in our sins, thats like saying God save me and I will still keep doing what you saved me from 

And again, it amazes me that someone that believes you cant fall when asked cant explain the fact why we were told to restore a fallen brother, if you cant fall.


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## addictedtodeer (Mar 19, 2007)

Let me speak about children for a moment.

My wife and I are expecting our first this August.
Our daughter is a sinner doomed to He!! by a just and Holy God due to the fall of man (see John 3:17-18; Romans 3:10-18; Romans 5; see also the theological idea of the Federal Headship of Adam).

I can not save her only Christ can and therefore my wife and I are praying that God will save her (everyday). Will it crush me if He doesn't?  I guess my answer is pretty simple, if He saved me He can save her.

My wife and I hold to the total depravity of man and so we will teach our daughter of the consequences of sin, of Christ, and try to live out the gospel around her.  Her salvation is dependent upon God's grace of which I am hoping and relying on.

No man can save any of their children, we aren't good enough. Only Christ can!


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## PWalls (Mar 19, 2007)

addictedtodeer said:


> Let me explain, when I used to preach I'd give an alter call, I'd pour my heart and soul into it and then wonder why no one would respond. What had I done wrong?  I was fearful of using the wrong words or stepping on toes. I was convinced that i could prevent someone from responding, what a dreadful thought!
> 
> Then I discovered what many others have salvation is up to God, wow did it change my approach! The gospel had to be presented all the time yet I found myself bolder,why?
> 
> Because it no longer depended on me getting it right! My job was to proclaim that there is a God who will save, that Christ has paid it all, that you must believe.  The results were now left up to God.  What a relief, I now realized I could not mess up the salvation process because it depended entirely upon God, I was merely to be faithful in proclaiming the gospel. No tricks, no gimmics, its awesome!



It was never about you to begin with. God is totally in charge of Salvation. The Holy Spirit brings a person to a point of conviction and realization of their need for Christ and His offer. You, nor I have any responsibility in that. All we are commanded to do is the Great Commission which is to preach the Word. If you thought you had to do something to win someone over or thought that you were failing, then that is totally on your own head.

My pastor just preached the Word. I realized my sinful nature and with conviction from the Holy Spirit was brought to a point of realization for my need for Salvation, for my need to accept an offer for a different road. My pastor didn't "do" anything other than say what God laid on his heart.

The holy Trinity did the work.


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## addictedtodeer (Mar 19, 2007)

PWalls said:


> It was never about you to begin with. God is totally in charge of Salvation.
> The holy Trinity did the work.



AMEN! I was a blind fool that God had to smack upside the head!


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## PWalls (Mar 19, 2007)

addictedtodeer said:


> Let me speak about children for a moment.
> 
> My wife and I are expecting our first this August.
> Our daughter is a sinner doomed to He!! by a just and Holy God due to the fall of man (see John 3:17-18; Romans 3:10-18; Romans 5; see also the theological idea of the Federal Headship of Adam).
> ...



Why are you and your wife praying for God to save your daughter (please understand I am not trying to be crass here)? According to Calvinism and the doctrine of the elect, He either already has or hasn't. She is either destined to go to Heaven or not. No prayer from you will change that. I am trying to point out that by your belief, you and your wife are wasting your time (and please I am not trying to offend you in any way and apologize if I do). I also will pray for your daughter right now that she will grow up to be a believer in Christ Jesus.


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## StriperAddict (Mar 19, 2007)

addictedtodeer said:


> AMEN! I was a blind fool that God had to smack upside the head!



It's only a "real FOOL" who wouldn't second that.

Amen!

Thanks be to God for His wonderful GIFT!


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## SBG (Mar 19, 2007)

Spotlite said:


> Its there, what happens is those that dont believe say none of those scripture apply to them, they are all out of context and always talking to some other group. Taking fall fatalistically?  Either you fall or you dont. No-one said it was fatal, we were told to restore them. Results of not restoring them could be fatal, if not then there would be no need to restore them.  I dont have a clue when someone looses their salvation, not my department, I do know we cant continue in our sins, thats like saying God save me and I will still keep doing what you saved me from
> 
> And again, it amazes me that someone that believes you cant fall when asked cant explain the fact why we were told to restore a fallen brother, if you cant fall.



Come now Chris. 



> I dont have a clue when someone looses their salvation, not my department,



Obviously you believe something then.

You know that you have said that any unforgiven sin causes you to lose your salvation. Like in the suicide thread..."Yeah but how you gonna ask forgiveness if your dead?" So you must think that not asking forgiveness for sin is what causes you to lose your salvation. Or is it the denial? Or is it disobedience?

This is addressed to anyone...except Spotlite:

What causes you to lose your salvation? Anyone?


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## PWalls (Mar 19, 2007)

I do pray on occasion that I can grow sufficiently enough to reduce the size of the piece of lumber that God has to hit me upside the head with to teach me. That 4x4 sure does hurt. Looking forward to maturing to a 2x4.


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## addictedtodeer (Mar 19, 2007)

PWalls said:


> Why are you and your wife praying for God to save your daughter (please understand I am not trying to be crass here)? According to Calvinism and the doctrine of the elect, He either already has or hasn't. She is either destined to go to Heaven or not. No prayer from you will change that. I am trying to point out that by your belief, you and your wife are wasting your time (and please I am not trying to offend you in any way and apologize if I do). I also will pray for your daughter right now that she will grow up to be a believer in Christ Jesus.



None taken!
Has God already decided? YES!
Do I know it? no
Am I commanded by Christ to present all things to Him in prayer? YES!

We have  to remember the Bible speaks of two things God's sovereignty and man's responsibility before Him. They are both taught and they are taught together.  i am responsible to pray for God to save. God is responsible to save whomever he chooses to.  He does not bow to my wishes but I must always bow to His. To throw up my hands and say "Oh, well' would be disregarding what he has asked me to do in scripture. I've done that too much in my life already.


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## StriperAddict (Mar 19, 2007)

SBG said:


> What causes you to lose your salvation? Anyone?



Nothing. Period.  

That is the wonder and the incredible promise to those who have believed in Jesus Christ.



If we could "loose" our salvation (talk about a ridiclous paradox!)  then we are just like every other 'religion' in the world...  and it would mean we must 'stay good enough' so as not to 'loose' it !!


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## PWalls (Mar 19, 2007)

This is a good thread with some good debate.

But it sure is confusing at times. Seems like we have some people talking about predestination/free will and others talking about OSAS/loss of salvation and some talking about both.


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## addictedtodeer (Mar 19, 2007)

PWalls said:


> This is a good thread with some good debate.
> 
> But it sure is confusing at times. Seems like we have some people talking about predestination/free will and others talking about OSAS/loss of salvation and some talking about both.



Yeah, it's just really hard to separate them, they work together.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 19, 2007)

wow, missed all of this. Darn, it was just getting good too. Hey, you know you pray to be comforted and praying over a child's future path, comfort will come from God. Period. No where else.

Don't try to seperate things. They all work in harmony.

I hate to tell you guys who seem to be on my side of the argument, but when we talk about God saving, it should be past tense. Jesus SAVED, not Jesus saves. It is the finished work of Christ we rely on.

Oh, i love this stuff.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 19, 2007)

And for spotlite, Restore to what? Restore does not mean resave. Man ( God) can build(save) furniture( spiritual man ) from wood.(Carnal man) The wood ( carnal man ) fades(.sin returns). Man can restore the finish of the wood but that doesn't make it not be furniture anymore. It is just faded furniture that needs fixing up. A little paint here, a little paint there, and it just becomes better furniture.

Stupid i know but simple to follow


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 19, 2007)

my example must have run you guys off. Sorry, I was putting it in a way i explained it to my daughter. My bad!


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## Spotlite (Mar 19, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> And for spotlite, Restore to what? Restore does not mean resave. Man ( God) can build(save) furniture( spiritual man ) from wood.(Carnal man) The wood ( carnal man ) fades(.sin returns). Man can restore the finish of the wood but that doesn't make it not be furniture anymore. It is just faded furniture that needs fixing up. A little paint here, a little paint there, and it just becomes better furniture.
> 
> Stupid i know but simple to follow



I guess just paint him up slap him on the back and tell him he is good to go.


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## PWalls (Mar 19, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> my example must have run you guys off. Sorry, I was putting it in a way i explained it to my daughter. My bad!



You're daughter must be smarter than me.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 19, 2007)

you got it. I know i should have stayed adult content


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## Bubba_T (Mar 21, 2007)

Wow!

I've been reading through this thread daily, and appreciate all the responses. Never would have imagined there'd be so many. 

Have spent a week reading and re-reading the posts (think my wife has thought I was crazy with me reading Georgia Outdoors News internet site with my Bible open beside me).

Not gonna get into a long theological discussion on why I feel the way I do. Let's just say my position is based on the preponderance of evidence combined with study and prayer on the subject. 

But have a couple of thoughts. 

One - I can't think of a more important subject for humanity to have a clear answer on. It's a shame that something of such import can be steeped in confusion(regardless of which position is true)  and that the lack of clarity allows it to be used as a tool to confuse and discourage God's children. 

Seems like this issue would have been explained beyond any doubt or discussion in the Book (I know those that take a strong position either way say it is clear. But if it were, there wouldn't be 178 posts in this thread).  

Long story short -  I believe as I did before the subject came up in my life recently: once saved always saved. 

But I'm gonna try to live my life as though it could be lost (ie gonna do, as it says in 2 Peter 1:5-11. I'm going to "make every effort" to be the man God designed and equipped me to be).


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## PWalls (Mar 21, 2007)

Bubba_T said:


> Have spent a week reading and re-reading the posts (think my wife has thought I was crazy with me reading Georgia Outdoors News internet site with my Bible open beside me).




Can't think of many things better than that. Call me crazy too. Just goes to show that alot of hunters are pretty spiritual as well.


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## MudDucker (Mar 21, 2007)

My goodness...clicked on this knowing that my Methodist friend was stirring the pot and got so much more.

Like Bubba, I won't lay out my full scriptial argument, although I must say, every scripture I've read to rely upon my conclusions are referred to here...awesome Biblical knowledge.

Here is what I believe:

1.  God does chose those whom he will move, however, I believe He gives man free will to reject Him or accept Him, otherwise our choice is meaningless to glorify Him.

2.  We are saved by Grace alone.  The only requirement of man to receive Grace is to believe in our Lord's sacrifice and accept it.

3.  I believe that once saved, always saved.  Once we are His in his busom, He doesn't let us go.  However, like a parent to a wayward child, He does let us learn from our mistakes.

4.  I believe that we can loose the joy found in living in accordance with His word when we sin after we are saved during our time as flesh upon the earth.  When we go to be with Him, this is all covered by His blood.

I don't see how any outdoorsman could possibly ignore the Lord's wonders and no believe.  Everytime I see a sunrise, I know that I am seeing His temple shining down on me.


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## elfiii (Mar 21, 2007)

Dead center on that one Mud.


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## SnowHunter (Mar 21, 2007)

elfiii said:


> Dead center on that one Mud.



+1 I agree!!
Couldnt have said it as eloquently as Mud if I had a dictionary, thesauras and anything else to help me!!
very well put!
Nic


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## SBG (Mar 22, 2007)

MudDucker said:


> My goodness...clicked on this knowing that my Methodist friend was stirring the pot and got so much more.
> 
> Like Bubba, I won't lay out my full scriptial argument, although I must say, every scripture I've read to rely upon my conclusions are referred to here...awesome Biblical knowledge.
> 
> ...



Amen!


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 22, 2007)

MudDucker said:


> My goodness...clicked on this knowing that my Methodist friend was stirring the pot and got so much more.
> 
> Like Bubba, I won't lay out my full scriptial argument, although I must say, every scripture I've read to rely upon my conclusions are referred to here...awesome Biblical knowledge.
> 
> ...


Can't resist. I'm trying to

#1- God does choose but you choose? If you get to choose you render God's choice meaningless.

#2- We are saved by Grace alone. Okay, then stop there because you are adding a requirement to it. OR RATHER SAY WERE SAVED BY GRACE IF WE ACCEPT IT. DO NOT SAY GRACE ALONE.

#3- Correct

#4- Correct

SBG will appreciate how hard it was for me not to say anything but i couldn't help it buddy


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## MudDucker (Mar 22, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> Can't resist. I'm trying to
> 
> #1- God does choose but you choose? If you get to choose you render God's choice meaningless.
> 
> ...



#1 we will just have to agree to disagree on.  I think without our choosing Him, we haven't glorified Him.  It is in this very instance that we were made in his image 

#2 I need to think about this, but I think my response to #1 puts us at odds here.  I think the Bible clearly says we must choose to accept his Grace by believing that He came, He was God, He died for us and He arose.

I know where you are coming from.  My grandfather was a primitive Baptist preacher.  I am a Southern Baptist.  I think these are the two main points over which the Church split doctrine years ago.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 22, 2007)

you would be correct on your history. That is exactly why they split.

Understand and respect your opinion. I consider any action by man "work" as you probably know. So that is why it is grace alone or grace with conditions.

Nobody on this thread can argue with me on the fact that when Jesus called Lazarus from the grave, he came. Bound hand and foot, he came. He was not given a choice. He was dead. How can one spiritually dead resist his calling as well? The power of God is much greater in his calling. We had no choice to be born naturally, what makes us think we have a choice spiritually? It is of God who calleth. If someone can tell me that Lazarus had a choice to come or not, I will give up my faith in election. But he called and he that was DEAD CAME.


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## SBG (Mar 22, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> you would be correct on your history. That is exactly why they split.
> 
> Understand and respect your opinion. I consider any action by man "work" as you probably know. So that is why it is grace alone or grace with conditions.
> 
> Nobody on this thread can argue with me on the fact that when Jesus called Lazarus from the grave, he came. Bound hand and foot, he came. He was not given a choice. He was dead. How can one spiritually dead resist his calling as well? The power of God is much greater in his calling. We had no choice to be born naturally, what makes us think we have a choice spiritually? It is of God who calleth. If someone can tell me that Lazarus had a choice to come or not, I will give up my faith in election. But he called and he that was DEAD CAME.



Evertime I hear one of you guys use the Lazarus analogy I have to chuckle. I'm sorry but that is just silly. Even if I were inclined to believe election, that would never be one of the scriptures I'd use to defend it.

This debate is so *** for tat...Lazarus couldn't resist God's call...but Adam and Eve could resist God's commandment.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 22, 2007)

Would like to hear your argument against it. Did he have a choice to come or not? You can chuckle all you want but answer the question.

The argument is not could man disobey God but can he resist the "call of God". It goes to the heart that when God speaks, it is so. I laugh everytime i hear a freewill person say, God calleth but i chooseth. If it says God called and he did justify, and he did glorify, then where's your choice. Lazarus is a perfect example of when God calls you come. Tell me where that is silly?

What is silly to me is that when the Bible says you are spiritually dead, you people seem to think that magically you become alive enough to make a decision. Then you use well God's calling stirs us to conviction. Yet, you are still dead in trespasses and sin. But somehow you magically come alive enough to make an eternal decision. To me it's just doesn't make sense. Either your dead or your alive. Now, if you don't believe in total depravity, then you can try and make an argument.

Adam and Eve were given a commandment to follow. They failed. They died. Physically, no. Spiritually, yes, as did all who followed them. As in Lazarus, so was Paul. Read of his conversion and tell me where his choice was? Christ spoke and told him what to do. Plain and simple. Paul did not say, but I am a jew and i want to follow what i believe in. No, he went.

Go to anything that is dead and wait all you want to, it will never ask you to make it alive. It can't. It won't. So either you are spiritually dead and are flesh, or you are partially spiritually dead and living partially by the flesh. Even diehard freewill people must admit you are born spiritually dead. Then somehow you become alive enough to know God. If it were that simple why isn't there one verse in the Bible that says the following" Okay, you have a choice. Believe in me or your going to go to he::"Wouldn't that be all they needed to write?

I'm sure you wouldn't use that example because you don't believe in election. 

Something or someone who is dead, comes straightforth when God's voice calls them. Is it really silly. Lazarus was dead. He came. 

Psalm 65:4 same thing. Who is blessed? The man God calleth.

What happens to the blessed man? God causeth him to dwell in his court. What? God causes a man to dwell with him? Impossible. Where is the blessed man's choice? Why did the writer leave it out?


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## SBG (Mar 22, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> Would like to hear your argument against it. Did he have a choice to come or not? You can chuckle all you want but answer the question.
> 
> The argument is not could man disobey God but can he resist the "call of God". It goes to the heart that when God speaks, it is so. I laugh everytime i hear a freewill person say, God calleth but i chooseth. If it says God called and he did justify, and he did glorify, then where's your choice. Lazarus is a perfect example of when God calls you come. Tell me where that is silly?
> 
> ...



I'm to lazy to type out a response, other than to say that isolating the example of Lazarus, without acknowledging all of the other times that people in the Bible rejected God is silly. You try and make an analogous example of Christ raising him from the dead to a person that is dead in sin. They are apples to oranges. Lazarus was physically dead...unregenerate man is SPIRITUALLY dead. They are not the same. Jesus also called legion out of the Gadarenes demoniac-Legion had no choice but he definitely fought against it.


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## StriperAddict (Mar 22, 2007)

MudDucker said:


> 4.  I believe that we can loose the joy found in living in accordance with His word when we sin after we are saved during our time as flesh upon the earth.  When we go to be with Him, this is all covered by His blood.
> 
> I don't see how any outdoorsman could possibly ignore the Lord's wonders and no believe.  Everytime I see a sunrise, I know that I am seeing His temple shining down on me.



Mud, the #4 was so good, ya oughta start a new thread. 


I've enjoyed reading both sides of this.  No ill will toward anyone, everyone has stated thier thoughts well.  Thanks Russ for bringing in the subject.  I'm sure this has got a lot of folks thinking.  

And I hope in the end the need is realised (forgiveness of sin) and the cure is obtained  (the blood of Christ that can make a sinner white as snow) to all those who are seeking to know the living God.

~fin!  (end!)


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## SBG (Mar 22, 2007)

StriperAddict said:


> Mud, the #4 was so good, ya oughta start a new thread.
> 
> 
> I've enjoyed reading both sides of this.  No ill will toward anyone, everyone has stated thier thoughts well.  Thanks Russ for bringing in the subject.  I'm sure this has got a lot of folks thinking.
> ...



Amen!!!!!!


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## reylamb (Mar 22, 2007)

Because Lazarus was not heeding a call for salvation.  Christ rose Lazarus from the dead to show the power of the Almighty God, and to show He was God.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 22, 2007)

NO DUH! SBG, glad you noticed unregenerate man is spiritually dead. But i guess orange death is different from apple death. Or as i thought, death was death. It is a perfect EXAMPLE.


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## SBG (Mar 22, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> NO DUH! SBG, glad you noticed unregenerate man is spiritually dead. But i guess orange death is different from apple death. Or as i thought, death was death. It is a perfect EXAMPLE.



Of course unregenerate spiritual man is dead, but you are confused about the state of this death. He is dead in the sense that a death sentence has been passed on him. Because God is the creator of time and is not beholding to its laws, He sees the sinner in his future state if he does not accept the pardon that is provided through His Son. This is the same thing as when God recognizes the believer as being glorified as referred to in Romans 8. Although us believers are not yet physically glorified, God recognizes us a thus....it's a done deal.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 22, 2007)

So your saying he's dead, but not dead. See a death sentence is one in which he will be dead at the end of his sentence at a determined time. Bible says he's already dead. 

It is a done deal, i agree.


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## SBG (Mar 22, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> So your saying he's dead, but not dead. See a death sentence is one in which he will be dead at the end of his sentence at a determined time. Bible says he's already dead.
> 
> It is a done deal, i agree.



Ah...but you think like a man and expect God to think that way also. Like I said, God is not beholding to the laws of nature that He created. I can't see why something so simple has to be wrested with???

Why can't the spiritual death that is referred to be the same principle as the glorified body? Obviously, look at yourself...are you in possession of a physical glorified body? No you're not. But in God's eyes, who now sees us through the blood of His Son, we are recognized as being glorified already. Because, this will blow your mind, it has already occurred.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 22, 2007)

you can't blow my mind. I completely agree with most of what you stated, with the difference being who chose who. If it already has happened like you say, and i believe in what you are saying, then why would it be so hard to believe God chose you instead of you choosing him? You think more like a man than i do. Tell any man he hasn't a choice and watch the reaction. I get a heckuva lot deeper than i think your giving me credit.


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## MudDucker (Mar 22, 2007)

There is no doubt that when Jesus called, Lazurus arose.  I do however believe that our Lord's purpose in this action was to show that He and He alone had the power over death, whether it be His own death later by hands of man or the death of man (like you and I) from whatever cause.

As for choice, I think God can choose how he exercises His calling.  Again, I have no doubt that He can make His calling irresistable, but I equally have no doubt that He can make His calling something less.  I believe His calling to us for salvation is resistable so that by choice we acknowledge His grace (which in my mind is not a work, for no work can bring salvation) and glorify Him by choosing to follow his call.  As an example (and a poor one I admit), I can put a leash on my dog and pull him to me at anytime or I can love and train my dog where when I set him free and then call him back to me, he willing returns.  I feel far more in the accomplishment of traning my dog to return than in dragging him back.  I think God feels more glorified in this manner that His love for me brings me to him rather than his leash.

I can't wait for the day when I can sit at His feet and learn of His plan in full.


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## THREEJAYS (Mar 22, 2007)

MudDucker said:


> There is no doubt that when Jesus called, Lazurus arose.  I do however believe that our Lord's purpose in this action was to show that He and He alone had the power over death, whether it be His own death later by hands of man or the death of man (like you and I) from whatever cause.
> 
> As for choice, I think God can choose how he exercises His calling.  Again, I have no doubt that He can make His calling irresistable, but I equally have no doubt that He can make His calling something less.  I believe His calling to us for salvation is resistable so that by choice we acknowledge His grace (which in my mind is not a work, for no work can bring salvation) and glorify Him by choosing to follow his call.  As an example (and a poor one I admit), I can put a leash on my dog and pull him to me at anytime or I can love and train my dog where when I set him free and then call him back to me, he willing returns.  I feel far more in the accomplishment of traning my dog to return than in dragging him back.  I think God feels more glorified in this manner that His love for me brings me to him rather than his leash.
> 
> I can't wait for the day when I can sit at His feet and learn of His plan in full.



Amen


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 22, 2007)

I understand your example. I went back and reread this thread. 

Ephesians 2:9 where it says not of works, the Greek word for work is ergon, and in this instance it is being used to mean by implication " to act ". Yes it can be used to mean to toil or to work but in this instance, the grammar means " to act '. Now, isn't accepting him an act or action by man?


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## furtaker (Mar 22, 2007)

The Bible is very clear in hundreds of places that the only thing required to be saved is faith alone in Christ alone.  The only way to be saved is by believing in Jesus for eternal life.  How long does eternal life last?  If a person can lose eternal life, then they never had it to begin with, because eternal life is eternal, as the name suggests.  Jesus promised over and over again in John that the one who believes _has_ (present tense) unending life.  If someone ever believed in Jesus and subsequently perished, then Jesus didn't tell the truth.  Jesus paid for all my sins, past, present, and future.  He promised me everlasting life if I simply believe in Him for it.  Since I believe Him, then I know I have eternal life.  Simple.  If I believe that I can lose my salvation, then I am believing in my works and perseverance to save me, and I can never be sure.  This totally contradicts 1 John 5:13 and countless other verses which say that I can _know_ it.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 22, 2007)

What does believing in Jesus mean?  Does it mean believing  in that he died for our sins, or accepting that he existed and therefore we are saved ? Or does it mean believing in the in the will of the Father or practicing the works required of the Sermon on the Mount? Does it mean believeing in the teachings of Christ and the counsels of Paul to the chruches, in believing that they are valid and revolutionary or does it mean practicing them.

So are we saved for "believing in Christ" and not doing? The first steps perhaps is to believe in the relationship, but after that, to be saved I would argue that someone must be assigned to take out the garbage if the relationship is to get intimate. Saved is as saved does.


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 22, 2007)

brentus said:


> The Bible is very clear in hundreds of places that the only thing required to be saved is faith alone in Christ alone.  The only way to be saved is by believing in Jesus for eternal life.  How long does eternal life last?  If a person can lose eternal life, then they never had it to begin with, because eternal life is eternal, as the name suggests.  Jesus promised over and over again in John that the one who believes _has_ (present tense) unending life.  If someone ever believed in Jesus and subsequently perished, then Jesus didn't tell the truth.  Jesus paid for all my sins, past, present, and future.  He promised me everlasting life if I simply believe in Him for it.  Since I believe Him, then I know I have eternal life.  Simple.  If I believe that I can lose my salvation, then I am believing in my works and perseverance to save me, and I can never be sure.  This totally contradicts 1 John 5:13 and countless other verses which say that I can _know_ it.



VERY Clear. I just don't see how one comes to that conclusion. Take the whole bible. Look at James 2:24

"YOU see that a man is to be declared righteous by works, and not by faith alone. "


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## gordon 2 (Mar 22, 2007)

Woodswalker said:


> mark it down, that's close to the target for sure, seems like, imho.
> 
> Accepting the teachings, then applying them in the secular world should get us all very far.
> 
> ...



You know for me it is just that here on Woody's it is real people who participate and because of this it is a unique place to talk faith, religion, beliefs etc. What I mean by real people is that here participants are the run of the mill Joe citizen or Jane the faithful. No dry theology, no renounded saints, just sinners like me. LOL..... Everyone here has something positive to contribute to the mix and some dross to get rid of. I learn about faith and the faithful all the time on this site. And also you southerners are stubborn enough to keep this forum going despite all the pains that all of us have to endure sometimes. Yankees would have yanked it a long time ago, I suspect. It speaks to the earnestness of your faith and your pride in community.  YOU ARE SPECIAL.
My payment is to know that I am not alone in trying to do what is right. Also, you folks like to talk as I do. LOL

Also, I am somewhere inside this Roman Catholic label, a Quaker, a Methodist, and Episcopalian, and a Holy Roller.LOL. I have not visited a denomination yet where Christ did not show up ...

You know many people see the devine in nature. I try to see it in people. I know that sometimes I over stay my welcome...but in a world were giving up on relationships is like having fast food, I try to eat real meat and bread where the meal is slower and bread and meat there is some.


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## MudDucker (Mar 23, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> I understand your example. I went back and reread this thread.
> 
> Ephesians 2:9 where it says not of works, the Greek word for work is ergon, and in this instance it is being used to mean by implication " to act ". Yes it can be used to mean to toil or to work but in this instance, the grammar means " to act '. Now, isn't accepting him an act or action by man?


 
I do not believe that acceptance, belief and faith are words of action within the meaning of ergon.

Here is a very comprehensive definition of ergon:

There are several ancient words associated with the idea of work, but the central one is _ergazomai_, a verb form of the word _ergon_.  We get the English word ergonomics from this Greek root.  Ergonomics is the study of work and motion.  _Ergon_ is the word for deed, action, achievement, practice, business and work. Another form of this Greek word is _energeia_.  Its obvious that the English word “energy” is a direct descendent of this old Greek word.  It means “force”.   Related Greek words that make their way into our culture are _synergos_ (a fellow-worker) and _euergeteo_ (to do good).  We get synergy and eulogy from these roots.
Very early in Greek history, the word for work was associated with specific occupations like farming or being a soldier.  It draws a picture of someone actively engaged in production or achievement.  The antonym is inactivity on the one hand, and mere words (as opposed to deeds) on the other.


Big thing for ergon is the use of "energy" and I don't think acceptance, belief or faith require energy.  I would hope all would move us to utilize energy in furtherance of His Grace that comes from those words though


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## FishFanatic (Mar 23, 2007)

DartonHunter101 said:


> VERY Clear. I just don't see how one comes to that conclusion. Take the whole bible. Look at James 2:24
> 
> "YOU see that a man is to be declared *righteous* by works, and not by faith alone. "



There you go.  A man is righteous by works....not saved.  Righteousness is not the same as salvation.  I don't know of anywhere in the new testament where it clearly says that works are necessary to get to heaven.  But, yes, works would be necessary for the Christian to carry out the great commission here on earth.  The whole act of serving others would be considered works.  Jesus served all.  But that man that accepted Christ's gift of salvation, will be with Christ in eternity regardless of whether or not he does zero works, one work, or thousands.  The one that does thousands may be celebrated a little more when he gets home.


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## irishleprechaun (Mar 23, 2007)

*the answer is...*

what you believe in your heart and soul is your answer.


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 23, 2007)

FishFanatic said:


> There you go.  A man is righteous by works....not saved.  Righteousness is not the same as salvation.  I don't know of anywhere in the new testament where it clearly says that works are necessary to get to heaven.  But, yes, works would be necessary for the Christian to carry out the great commission here on earth.  The whole act of serving others would be considered works.  Jesus served all.  But that man that accepted Christ's gift of salvation, will be with Christ in eternity regardless of whether or not he does zero works, one work, or thousands.  The one that does thousands may be celebrated a little more when he gets home.



I think Jesus has a little different take on things. How do you explian the parable of the talents at Matt 25: 19-28?

19Imadummy“After a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them. 20ImadummySo the one that had received five talents came forward and brought five additional talents, saying, ‘Master, you committed five talents to me; see, I gained five talents more.’ 21ImadummyHis master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave! You were faithful over a few things. I will appoint you over many things. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22ImadummyNext the one that had received the two talents came forward and said, ‘Master, you committed to me two talents; see, I gained two talents more.’ 23ImadummyHis master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave! You were faithful over a few things. I will appoint you over many things. Enter into the joy of your master.’

“Finally the one that had received the one talent came forward and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be an exacting man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you did not winnow. So I grew afraid and went off and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ In reply his master said to him, ‘Wicked and sluggish slave, you knew, did you, that I reaped where I did not sow and gathered where I did not winnow? Well, then, you ought to have deposited my silver monies with the bankers, and on my arrival I would be receiving what is mine with interest.

Therefore TAKE away the talent from him and give it to him that has the ten talents. For to everyone that has, more will be given and he will have abundance; but as for him that does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. And throw the good-for-nothing slave out into the darkness outside. There is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be.’


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## FishFanatic (Mar 23, 2007)

I see your point with the parable.  But to me the parable is a perfect example of a part of the bible that we really can't be sure what this applies to.  Any conclusion I come to from Jesus's parable, will have me stretching at some point.  Its a parable, and that is why its not point blank, in your face with an answer.  I could easily take this particular parable and say "Jesus is saying that we must work hard with what we are given."  I'm stretching a little, but its not that farfetched.  There are other conclusions I could come to also.  To say that the TAKE away aspect of the parable is refering to salvation is also stretching.  It does not say I will take away your salvation.  It makes no reference to salvation.  I guess the point is, there are many parts of the new testament that are very loud and clear, and there are many parts that are soft and cloudy/not clear.  I have found that I can live my life the way Jesus wants me to, work hard for the kingdom, take my free gift of salvation, and have faith that I will spend eternity with my God all in the Bible and there is not stretch on my part to back that up.   Its loud and clear and plain as day.   God is not out to deceive us.  He will make clear the things we NEED to know.  And He has.


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## furtaker (Mar 24, 2007)

Fishing Technician, very well said.
A person is saved only when they are sure that they personally are eternally secure by simply believing in Jesus.  That is the promise of the gospel.  The book of John is the _only_ book in the New Testament written for the sole purpose of telling people what they must do to have eternal life.  The word "believe" is mentioned 99 times!  All the other books are written to saved people.  We know this from John 20:31:  "These have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name."  According to John, all a person has to do is "believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God."  However, alot of people believe that Jesus is the Son of God, yet are still unsaved.  They could still believe they have to work hard to get to heaven.  So, it is important to understand what John means by "the Christ, the Son of God."
This is easily understood by reading John 11:25-27, the only other passage in John where this phrase is found.  Here, Jesus is about to raise Lazarus from the dead.  He turns to Martha and says, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die.  DO YOU BELIEVE THIS?"  She replies using the exact phrase from 20:31:  "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world."  He mentioned nothing about works, perseverance, turning from sins, baptism, or commitment.  He simply asked if she believed what He said.
Thus, to believe that Jesus is "the Christ, the Son of God" is to believe that He is my Savior who GUARANTEES my eternal destiny.  Martha knew she had eternal life because Jesus promised it.
He said that whoever believes in Him will never die and asked her if she believed this.  She believed it, so she was sure she had eternal life.  A person who doesn't believe in eternal security does not believe what Jesus is saying!  They could only answer His question with a definite "No."  There is no logical way a person can believe what Jesus is saying and yet not be sure that they have eternal life or will be resurrected by Jesus.
Paul and the other preachers and writers in the New Testament were totally consumed with concern about preachers preaching a gospel different from the one they preached.  Paul said they should be put to death (Gal 1:8-9).  I fear this same problem is widespread in churches today.


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## jneil (Mar 25, 2007)

-A person is saved only when they are sure that they personally are eternally secure by simply believing in Jesus-

Does this include Paul Hill, the ex-minister that killed the doctor in Pensacola?


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## furtaker (Mar 25, 2007)

Yep, it includes anyone.  "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that _whosoever_ believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).  "For by grace you have been saved through _faith_ and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God.  Not of works, so that no one can boast" (Eph. 2:8-9).  Since Jesus paid for the sins of the whole world by his death, burial, and resurrection, He can freely give believers eternal life.


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## toddboucher (Mar 27, 2007)

Ive heard all the reasons in the world for not believing the doctrine of eternal security. It comes down to this you believe God changes because if you believed he changes not then I would say you must believe in eternal security or (always saved) to me its that simple. See all thous against this doctrine say it doesn't make sense  but thats the good news, grace doesn't make sense. Yesterday my wife was having a bad day, and she blow up on the phone  then we made-up,  then last night I sold my atv ramps to woody member MrD. On the way home God put it in my heart to give the $100 to the wife and have her buy herself something. 
She said after today are you sure, I told her this is a example of our salvation. As our heart is right our spirit is clean from all our faults. See in Jude 24 "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
Now thats the key God can keep us from falling and when we fall, he uses that to keep us falling in the future. He is going to present us faultless. 
Now I know some may think this is a cop-out but if you can sin with no remorse you were never really saved. You might have tried to walk the walk for awhile by your own power, but thats a big difference between being changed from the inside out. "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. The real debate is have you been changed to the point that you don't even know that old man.


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## furtaker (Mar 27, 2007)

It is impossible for any believer to be "changed to the point where you don't even know the old man."  Look at what the Apostle Paul said:  "For that which I do I allow not:  for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I...Now then it is no more I that do it, _but sin that dwelleth in me_" (Rom. 7:15-17).  Even the Apostle Paul obviously had a sin problem.  Where does the Bible state that if you can sin with no remorse then you aren't really saved?  If that were the case, how could anyone be sure they were saved since our feelings are always fluctuating?  How _much_ remorse would I have to feel to draw the conclusion that I am a true Christian?  That would only mean that assurance of my salvation would be centered in _myself_ rather than in Jesus.  The Bible makes it clear that the battle between the flesh and the Spirit is a real thing.  I am all for believers trying not to sin, but the Bible is clear that believers sin _alot_.  My only basis for assurance of salvation is believing in the One who died for my sins.  It is _not_ trying not to sin and feeling remorse for our sins that gives us eternal life; it is believing in Jesus.  There are no other conditions.


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## CATFISH1 (Mar 28, 2007)

I MUST DISAGREE ABOUT GOD CHOOSING ME. WE HAVE TO CHOOSE JESUS INTO OUR LIFE, I BELIEVE IN ONCE SDASVED ALWAYS SAVED UNLESS THE PERSON TURNS HIS BACK ON GOD.


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## toddboucher (Mar 28, 2007)

brentus said:


> It is impossible for any believer to be "changed to the point where you don't even know the old man."  Look at what the Apostle Paul said:  "For that which I do I allow not:  for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I...Now then it is no more I that do it, _but sin that dwelleth in me_" (Rom. 7:15-17).  Even the Apostle Paul obviously had a sin problem.  Where does the Bible state that if you can sin with no remorse then you aren't really saved?  If that were the case, how could anyone be sure they were saved since our feelings are always fluctuating?  How _much_ remorse would I have to feel to draw the conclusion that I am a true Christian?  That would only mean that assurance of my salvation would be centered in _myself_ rather than in Jesus.  The Bible makes it clear that the battle between the flesh and the Spirit is a real thing.  I am all for believers trying not to sin, but the Bible is clear that believers sin _alot_.  My only basis for assurance of salvation is believing in the One who died for my sins.  It is _not_ trying not to sin and feeling remorse for our sins that gives us eternal life; it is believing in Jesus.  There are no other conditions.




Sorry your right, I didn't put it correct.

What I meant was if your walk never changed and your sin life doesn't upset you, its time to look inside. If I said I was saved but had no desire to be more like Jesus, something is not inline. God loves us to much to leave us the way we are, he changed me. Romans 8:29 God want to turn us into the image of his Son.

But on the main point, I believe our salvation is secure forever, by what Jesus did on the cross. I guess What I was trying to say was if Jesus is the payment for are sins in the beginning, Jesus is still the payment in the end, in other words If I didn't do anything to earn it Its not up to me to keep it. Again back to the point HE changes us, Thats why I used Jude vs. 24 On to him who is able to keep us from falling. Of course we will sin but the payment of the cross is always bigger. 

Its always about Jesus.

hope this helps.


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## crackerdave (Aug 13, 2008)

Here's an oldie but goodie on the OSAS squabble.


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## Gentleman4561 (Aug 20, 2008)

Yes once God is in our heart we are saved  it dosent matter if you go and kill someone you are still saved.  Now that dosent mean that God is saddened by your sins he wishes that you would draw near to him again.  But if you have accepted him as your savior then you are saved!


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## Ronnie T (Aug 20, 2008)

Read  Jude


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## formula1 (Aug 21, 2008)

MudDucker said:


> My goodness...clicked on this knowing that my Methodist friend was stirring the pot and got so much more.
> 
> Like Bubba, I won't lay out my full scriptial argument, although I must say, every scripture I've read to rely upon my conclusions are referred to here...awesome Biblical knowledge.
> 
> ...



I agree with Mud, but that's because it pretty much agrees with my study of the Scriptures.

I think this would agree with Mud's #1 point (don't let me put words into your mouth Mud), but I would add that I believe that God predestined His plans, but not His people. As an individual, you do have free will to choose or reject Christ.  He is glorified and all the angels rejoice at the moment of your choosing, when you so choose!!!

I can't wait to see those gorgeous fall sunrises either!!!


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## SBG (Aug 21, 2008)

Gentleman4561 said:


> Yes once God is in our heart we are saved  it dosent matter if you go and kill someone you are still saved.  Now that dosent mean that God is saddened by your sins he wishes that you would draw near to him again.  But if you have accepted him as your savior then you are saved!




Amen!


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## Ronnie T (Aug 21, 2008)

Please read the book of Jude.

Here's some points it makes.

1.  God saved all the people of Israel from slavery in Egypt.  They didn't save themselves.  God did it.  But those who were not faithful to God after He saved them-He comdemned and destroyed.  Practically none of them saw the Promised Land...... Promised Land.

2.  Angels in times past turned against their ministry/responsibility toward God and they now have been restrained until the final fire.

3.  Jude said that many in the church are teaching that God's mercy means you can go on sinning.  But nothing is further from the truth.  Jude urges them to keep the faith (the original teachings they had received) and do not turn God's mercy into a licenses to commit sins.

4.  God's mercy was never intended as His obligation to save you no matter what you decide to do with your knowledge of Him.
Quite the contrary, God's mercy gives you the ability to move beyond sins hold on you.  God's mercy gives you freedon in Christ.

1st John tells Christians that a believer will seek to walk in the light of Jesus Christ.

The word "Christian" means "Disciple of Christ".  If a person is not a follower of Christ, they are not a disciple of Christ.  A disciple is a student.

Do I still sin?  You bet.  But if I am living for Christ, the blood of Christ continues to forgive me of my sin.  Jesus did not die on the cross so that I can live as I want and do as I want.  He died on the cross so that I could come to God in a way that no one ever had before.


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## SBG (Aug 21, 2008)

Jude is a wonderful example of eternal salvation and illustrates the fact that there are those that "crept in unawares," and these creepers are the chaff that has intermingled themselves with the wheat.

1:12
These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;  

1:13
Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.  

1:14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,  

1:15
To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.  

1:16
These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling [words], having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.  

1:17
But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;  

1:18
How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.  

1:19
These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.  1:20
But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,  

1:21
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.  

1:22
And of some have compassion, making a difference:  

1:23
And others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.  

1:24
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,  1:25
To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. 

It is obvious that Jude was referring to the unsaved.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 21, 2008)

How about this:

Matthew 13:18-23
18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means:
19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path.
20 The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy.
21 But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.
22 The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful.
23 But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”


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## Ronnie T (Aug 21, 2008)

And this one

Mark 13:13 says:
[Jesus said] “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”


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## Ronnie T (Aug 21, 2008)

If God didn’t want us to be able to choose He would not have given us the gift of freewill. It is this gift which places us above the animals. It is this gift which allows us to choose to either worship God or not worship God. It is this gift, and only this gift, which allows us to truly love Him like a son. It is this gift which proves that ‘once saved, always saved’ must be wrong.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 21, 2008)

In 1 Corinthians 9 Paul said:

25Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 
26Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 
27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.


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## SBG (Aug 21, 2008)

This passage of scripture nails down without equivocation that salvation in Christ is forever.

8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 

If a person that has been saved by God's grace could somehow become unsaved, all things are certainly NOT working together for their good. 
8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.  

8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.  

As soon as we are saved, God already see us in our glorified state! Praise God!

8:31
What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?  

8:32
He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?  

8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.  

8:34
Who is he that condemneth ? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.  

8:35
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?  

8:36
As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.  

8:37
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.  

8:38
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,  

8:39
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.  


Amen!


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## Double Barrel BB (Aug 21, 2008)

If Saved, Always Saved!


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## Ronnie T (Aug 21, 2008)

The scripture you used and the scripture I used seem to contradict each other.  Which should we delete from the Holy Bible?  We obviously cannot.
You cannot ignore the scripture I have provided for you.
I cannot ignore the scripture you provided.
They must be used together.


In 1 Corinthians 9 Paul said:

25Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 
26Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 
27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.


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## SBG (Aug 21, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> The scripture you used and the scripture I used seem to contradict each other.  Which should we delete from the Holy Bible?  We obviously cannot.
> You cannot ignore the scripture I have provided for you.
> I cannot ignore the scripture you provided.
> They must be used together.
> ...




Ronnie, I do not think that they contradict each other at all. Taken in totality, I know that the Bible is clear in regards to the one that is able to keep us safe after saving us. John 3:16 says it all.


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## PWalls (Aug 21, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> If Saved, Always Saved!



HALLELUJAH


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## farmasis (Aug 21, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> The scripture you used and the scripture I used seem to contradict each other. Which should we delete from the Holy Bible? We obviously cannot.
> You cannot ignore the scripture I have provided for you.
> I cannot ignore the scripture you provided.
> They must be used together.
> ...


 
Disqualified from salvation, or disqualified from being used as a servant of God? What SBG posted is from Romans. Was Paul bipolar? I stand by my statement that if we read something and it doesn't jive with the rest of the Bible, then we have applied our interpretations, and they are most likely wrong (since the Bible cannot be.).


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## Ronnie T (Aug 21, 2008)

farmasis said:


> Disqualified from salvation, or disqualified from being used as a servant of God? What SBG posted is from Romans. Was Paul bipolar? *I stand by my statement that if we read something and it doesn't jive with the rest of the Bible, then we have applied our interpretations, and they are most likely wrong (since the Bible cannot be.*).



You and I simply have different perspective on accepting the inspired word as received.

We all are saved by grace.  But in the end, grace is only available to those who are disciples of Jesus Christ.  Disciples are sinners but they are seeking to live for Christ.  God's grace is not for those who use His grace as a licenses to sin.

Now, no more discussion....... I'm right and you're wrong.


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## farmasis (Aug 21, 2008)

I was just wondering what made you think Paul was thinking about disqualification from salvation when he doesn't say and that it is opposite to what he says in other books.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 21, 2008)

Maybe he said it to educate us.


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## kw5891 (Aug 21, 2008)

*saved*

we can read the same bible same lord and not agree. point those who endure to the end shall be saved


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## dawg2 (Aug 21, 2008)

Not according to this thread:

http://forum.gon.com/showpost.php?p=2506575&postcount=10


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## farmasis (Aug 21, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> I think the Bible is clear as a bell:
> 
> There is no such thing as once saved, always saved.
> 
> DW


 

Then clear this up of me.

17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. (1 Cor 5)

Ok, I am a new creation. I have been reconciled to Christ and now God is not counting my sins against me (for salvation). Can I undo what God did? 

Am I stronger than Christ or God? 

27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all<SUP>[d]</SUP>; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one." 


Am I stronger than the Holy Spirit?

30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. (Eph 4)

13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory. (Eph 1)

When we believe we are sealed and the Holy Spirit is a deposit GUARANTEEING our salvation.

Did Jesus lie here?

 25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" (John 10)

or here?

24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. (John 5)

or here?

36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him. (John 3)

I could keep going, but what do you say to that? How do we twist Jesus's own words to not mean what they say?


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## farmasis (Aug 21, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Not according to this thread:
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showpost.php?p=2506575&postcount=10


 
Dawg, if you are saved, I believe you are always saved. That is why some people say once truely saved, always saved.

If we continue to live in sin and disobedience to God and never return to church and show no change in our life, I think we should question what we did, examine our own life to make sure that our calling and election is sure.

6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. ( 1 John 3)

19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. ( 1 John 2)


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## sman (Aug 21, 2008)

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


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## farmasis (Aug 21, 2008)

sman said:


> 21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


 
Was Esau ever saved? Or did God hate him from birth?


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## sman (Aug 22, 2008)

God hated him before his birth. 

Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED." 

   14  What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 

   15For He says to Moses, "  I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 

   16So then it *does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy*.


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## Big7 (Aug 22, 2008)

DartonHunter101 said:


> VERY Clear. I just don't see how one comes to that conclusion. Take the whole bible. Look at James 2:24
> 
> "YOU see that a man is to be declared righteous by works, and not by faith alone. "



I'm with you on that!
Check my threads. "Alone was added" not in ths Scripture though. I think
this is where SOME of the confusion comes from.



Gentleman4561 said:


> Yes once God is in our heart we are saved  it dosent matter if you go and kill someone you are still saved.  Now that dosent mean that God is saddened by your sins he wishes that you would draw near to him again.  But if you have accepted him as your savior then you are saved!



"it dosent matter if you go and kill someone you are still saved."
Man, I must have been seeing things here, or can't read and comprehend - or maybe just throw out The Ten
Commandments. I don't know. This is one time I can say
I'm truly at a loss of words - or a response. From Me?
I gotta be kidding, right? No!

Please read this: If faith is this and works is that, why
not just do both? The Bible often contradicts itself, plus it never says it does not. Some will say "the stronger point will clarify the weaker one"  I say, so just do all of it.
Please read my post. Please?

Most protestant denominations believe to some degree in self-interpretation of the Bible.  They believe that they are personally guided by the Holy Spirit and that they can discern the Spirit’s will.  While it is true that the Spirit dwells within all of the faithful, there is a certain prideful danger in trusting your own discernment.  In fact, false discernment is what has caused so many divisions among the Protestants (thousands of denominations, non-denominations and independent churches who disagree on the teachings of Christ).  How can this be?  If the Holy Spirit is guiding them, wouldn’t they all agree?  Why would the Holy Spirit tell one church that they should baptize children, and another church that they shouldn’t?  Or that one church must perform works and receive sacraments, but the other is saved by faith alone?  Clearly, someone is discerning in error.  Why do we believe it is the Catholic Church that is truly guided by the Holy Spirit?  Because we have a written history and an unbroken line of leadership that spans back to the time of Jesus.  Our church leaders learned the faith directly from the Apostles.   
This is why we don’t believe in the Bible alone.  We believe that everything in the Bible is true and sacred, but we don’t believe everything is written in the Bible (in fact the Bible itself says that it is not).   Since history tells us that there was no Bible for the first 400 years of Christianity, and that the Catholic Church is the body that determined which writings would make up the Bible and made the Bible official (that’s a historical fact) it makes sense that things are in the Bible because we believe them, not that we believe things because they are in the Bible.   Do you see the difference?  The Bible contains the writings that the Church believes are true, not the other way around.   

That being said, for folks who need to prove things by showing that they are in the Bible, the Bible does say in Acts that there were 12 Apostles although Jesus had many, many followers (hundreds, if not thousands). In Luke,  Jesus sent 70 men to preach the Good News.  These 70 preachers, led by the authority of the Apostles with Peter as the leader, formed the early church.  This means that he entrusted the message with specific people, not the entire flock.  He told the Apostles that the Holy Spirit would come to help THEM and would remain with THEM forever and would lead THEM into all truth.  What people don’t realize is that the Apostles named successors, and these successors now are the bishops of the modern-day RCC. If the Spirit is remaining with THEM, and the bishops are THEIR successors, then where does the Spirit remain?  With the RCC.  That’s how we know that we are authentically guided by the Spirit (because Jesus promised the Spirit would remain with them FOREVER) and it is this guidance that keeps the Church free from error in its teaching.  (That’s not to say that PEOPLE within the Church are free from error – we’ve certainly had plenty who have gone against the Church and caused scandals) But as a BODY in its OFFICIAL TEACHING, the Church cannot be wrong.  For the Church to be wrong, the Holy Spirit would have to fail in its promised mission, and since the Holy Spirit is GOD, that failure is not possible. 

And.. Next post.


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## Big7 (Aug 22, 2008)

Again, this is an issue of false teaching.  EVERYWHERE in the Bible, Jesus tells us that we have to serve the poor, widows and children.  He says that whatever we do to the least of these, we do unto Him.  Jesus is quite clear in his intentions for us to do works.   He says we must LOVE one another – that is DOING.  He says we must PRAY – that is DOING.  He says we must receive his BODY AND BLOOD – that is DOING.  

All Christians clearly understood that these things are expected of us for the first 1500 years of Christianity.  It was not until Calvin that this was even questioned.  In fact, Calvin wanted to leave the book of James out of the Bible because it went against his faith-alone teaching.  
The fact is, we are not saved by faith or works.  We are saved by GRACE – it is a free gift from God and there is nothing we can do to merit it. 

 But, in order for us to live out what Jesus commanded,  - Love the Lord with all your heart, mind and strength – we must have FAITH

And to –Love our neighbor as ourselves – we must have WORKS.


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## Double Barrel BB (Aug 22, 2008)

Salvation is a Cause/Effect relationship....

Because of Salvation, you will do Good Works.  If you are not saved, nothing you do is good in the eyes of God.

DB BB


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## farmasis (Aug 22, 2008)

sman said:


> God hated him before his birth.
> 
> Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
> 
> ...


 
Then either the rest of the new testament is in error, or this is one time that God suspended the free will of man to accomplish His will as he did with Jonah.


----------



## farmasis (Aug 22, 2008)

Big7 said:


> I'm with you on that!
> Check my threads. "Alone was added" not in ths Scripture though. I think
> this is where SOME of the confusion comes from.


 
yes, faith alone is biblical. Luther may have added the word alone to his version when he translated, but it is in context with Paul. So, he may have added, but did not change. Every time scripture is translated, we add. We have to to put it in our language.
Romans 3:28, Romans 5:1, Galations 3:24.





> "it dosent matter if you go and kill someone you are still saved."





> Man, I must have been seeing things here, or can't read and comprehend - or maybe just throw out The Ten
> Commandments. I don't know. This is one time I can say
> I'm truly at a loss of words - or a response. From Me?
> I gotta be kidding, right? No!


 
Nothing can seperate us from the love of Christ. One sin is no greater than another to God. We like to pick and choose which sin is acceptable to Christ. Ya know Moses was a murderer. David was a murderer, and Paul was a murderer.



> Please read this: If faith is this and works is that, why
> not just do both?


 
You should.




> The Bible often contradicts itself, plus it never says it does not.





> Some will say "the stronger point will clarify the weaker one" I say, so just do all of it.
> Please read my post. Please?


 
What??? The Bible does not contradict itself.
 If all scripture is from God (2 Tim: 16-17) and God cannot lie (Hebrews 6:18-19), then scripture is infallible.



> Most protestant denominations believe to some degree in self-interpretation of the Bible. They believe that they are personally guided by the Holy Spirit and that they can discern the Spirit’s will. While it is true that the Spirit dwells within all of the faithful, there is a certain prideful danger in trusting your own discernment. In fact, false discernment is what has caused so many divisions among the Protestants (thousands of denominations, non-denominations and independent churches who disagree on the teachings of Christ). How can this be? If the Holy Spirit is guiding them, wouldn’t they all agree? Why would the Holy Spirit tell one church that they should baptize children, and another church that they shouldn’t? Or that one church must perform works and receive sacraments, but the other is saved by faith alone? Clearly, someone is discerning in error. Why do we believe it is the Catholic Church that is truly guided by the Holy Spirit? Because we have a written history and an unbroken line of leadership that spans back to the time of Jesus. Our church leaders learned the faith directly from the Apostles.
> This is why we don’t believe in the Bible alone. We believe that everything in the Bible is true and sacred, but we don’t believe everything is written in the Bible (in fact the Bible itself says that it is not). Since history tells us that there was no Bible for the first 400 years of Christianity, and that the Catholic Church is the body that determined which writings would make up the Bible and made the Bible official (that’s a historical fact) it makes sense that things are in the Bible because we believe them, not that we believe things because they are in the Bible. Do you see the difference? The Bible contains the writings that the Church believes are true, not the other way around.
> 
> That being said, for folks who need to prove things by showing that they are in the Bible, the Bible does say in Acts that there were 12 Apostles although Jesus had many, many followers (hundreds, if not thousands). In Luke, Jesus sent 70 men to preach the Good News. These 70 preachers, led by the authority of the Apostles with Peter as the leader, formed the early church. This means that he entrusted the message with specific people, not the entire flock. He told the Apostles that the Holy Spirit would come to help THEM and would remain with THEM forever and would lead THEM into all truth. What people don’t realize is that the Apostles named successors, and these successors now are the bishops of the modern-day RCC. If the Spirit is remaining with THEM, and the bishops are THEIR successors, then where does the Spirit remain? With the RCC. That’s how we know that we are authentically guided by the Spirit (because Jesus promised the Spirit would remain with them FOREVER) and it is this guidance that keeps the Church free from error in its teaching. (That’s not to say that PEOPLE within the Church are free from error – we’ve certainly had plenty who have gone against the Church and caused scandals) But as a BODY in its OFFICIAL TEACHING, the Church cannot be wrong. For the Church to be wrong, the Holy Spirit would have to fail in its promised mission, and since the Holy Spirit is GOD, that failure is not possible.
> ...


 
This trash treads dangerously close to Protestant bashing.


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## farmasis (Aug 22, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> That's not Protestant bashing, that's stating a belief that is consistent with the teachings of his religion. It is a statement of his faith.
> 
> He didn't use any derogatory words or phrases.
> 
> DW


 


> In fact, false discernment is what has caused so many divisions among the Protestants


 
So, I am free to post opinion pieces that say Catholics believe falsely?

You can't have it both ways. Either post what you believe and support it, or post why others beliefs are wrong and accept the same back.


----------



## crackerdave (Aug 22, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> I think the Bible is clear as a bell:
> 
> There is no such thing as once saved, always saved.
> 
> DW



So you're saying Jesus should die again every time you screw up?


----------



## crackerdave (Aug 22, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> Well, then, explain to me why there are tens of thousands of different Protestant denominations other than discernment problems within the Protestant churches.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You,if you disagree with "once saved,always saved."

Do you really think God would give somebody such a wonderful gift as salvation,and then take it back? If you truly belong to Jesus Christ,you are in His hand.His hand is in the Father's hand.No body and NO thing can take you out of that hand.This has been hacked to pieces on this forum so many times that I'm truly sick of it,and I REBUKE satan and his people IN THE NAME OF JESUS for trying to belittle the Gift of salvation by saying it is something that can be lost.

And that's all I got to say about that.


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 22, 2008)

Again, please let me say this.

Jesus died on the cross to give the sinning world the ability to come to God sinlessly.  They would be justified , sanctified, and made righteous by Jesus Christ, their Lord and Savior.

When a person comes to accept Jesus, they are saved by the grace and mercy of God.  They had no power to save themselves.  They are not saved because they made themselves good enough.  They are save because they believe in Jesus as Lord.

But,  But,  Jesus died so that man could begin living for Him(Jesus).  Man is to be disciples of Jesus.
A man who is not a disciple is in danger of judgment.


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## farmasis (Aug 22, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> Well, then, explain to me why there are tens of thousands of different Protestant denominations other than discernment problems within the Protestant churches.


 


Sure, the same reason there are different Catholic churches and the same reason they do not all believe the same.


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 22, 2008)

rangerdave said:


> You,if you disagree with "once saved,always saved."
> 
> Do you really think God would give somebody such a wonderful gift as salvation,and then take it back? If you truly belong to Jesus Christ,you are in His hand.His hand is in the Father's hand.No body and NO thing can take you out of that hand.This has been hacked to pieces on this forum so many times that I'm truly sick of it,and I REBUKE satan and his people IN THE NAME OF JESUS for trying to belittle the Gift of salvation by saying it is something that can be lost.
> 
> And that's all I got to say about that.





Do you think God would free His people from Egypt and promise them their own land; and then see to it that none of them actually made it into the Promised Land?


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## farmasis (Aug 22, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> Do you think God would free His people from Egypt and promise them their own land; and then see to it that none of them actually made it into the Promised Land?


 
Didn't most of them not make it to the promised land including Moses himself? Because of their unbelief, they wandered in the desert until most of those that left died.


----------



## gtparts (Aug 22, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> I think the Bible is clear as a bell:
> 
> There is no such thing as once saved, always saved.
> 
> DW



Many persons, if they are asked what they understand by salvation, will reply, "Being saved from (that place of ultimate torment that will not be uttered here) and taken to heaven." This is one result of salvation, but it is not one tithe of what is contained in that boon. It is true our Lord Jesus Christ does redeem all His people from the wrath to come; He saves them from the fearful condemnation which their sins had brought upon them; but His triumph is far more complete than this. He saves His people "from their sins." Oh! sweet deliverance from our worst foes. Where Christ works a saving work, He casts Satan from his throne, and will not let him be master any longer. No man is a true Christian if sin reigns in his mortal body. Sin will be in us--it will never be utterly expelled till the spirit enters glory; but it will never have dominion. There will be a striving for dominion--a lusting against the new law and the new spirit which God has implanted--but sin will never get the upper hand so as to be absolute monarch of our nature. Christ will be Master of the heart, and sin must be mortified. The Lion of the tribe of Judah shall prevail, and the dragon shall be cast out. Professor! Is sin subdued in you? If your life is unholy your heart is unchanged, and if your heart is unchanged you are an unsaved person. If the Saviour has not sanctified you, renewed you, given you a hatred of sin and a love of holiness, He has done nothing in you of a saving character. The grace which does not make a man better than others is a worthless counterfeit. Christ saves His people, not in their sins, but from them. "Without holiness no man shall see the Lord." "Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." If not saved from sin, how shall we hope to be counted among His people. Lord, save me now from all evil, and enable me to honour my Saviour. 

- Charles H. Spurgeon -

The eloquence with which this saint wrote speaks to me concerning the possibility of losing one's salvation. Take note that all actions are God's actions. Salvation is then wholly a work of God. Our acceptance of the Truth is the carnal response to a recognition that there is a spiritual void within us. Even our confession and repentance are not works of the flesh, but responses to what God has done, will do, and is doing to bring us into proper relationship to Him. There is NOTHING that we can do to negate or nullify God's work in this regard; nor is there anything we can do to cause God to renege or nullify on His commitment. 

On 1 John 1:9, Matthew Henry has in part this to say:

"The Christian religion is the religion of sinners, of such as have sinned, and in whom sin in some measure still dwells. The Christian life is a life of continued repentance, humiliation for and mortification of sin, of continual faith in, thankfulness for, and love to the Redeemer, and hopeful joyful expectation of a day of glorious redemption, in which the believer shall be fully and finally acquitted, and sin abolished for ever.

God is faithful to his covenant and word, wherein he has promised forgiveness to penitent believing confessors. He is just to himself and his glory who has provided such a sacrifice, by which his righteousness is declared in the justification of sinners. He is just to his Son who has not only sent him for such service, but promised to him that those who come through him shall be forgiven on his account. By his knowledge (by the believing apprehension of him) shall my righteous servant justify many, Isa. 53:11. He is clement and gracious also, and so will forgive, to the contrite confessor, all his sins, cleanse him from the guilt of all unrighteousness, and in due time deliver him from the power and practice of it."


Short version:

1. He does it [gives Salvation( at our request -the Sinner's Prayer, as it has been titled)] , we do NOT do it (earn Salvation, in part or in whole)  .

2. He personally guarantees it.

3. We ( having experienced God's grace) will not and can not undo what He has ordained and sustains, nor would we want to do such. If any one could, then he / she would be God and " Boy, we'd all be in a mess!"

As for the Book of James, it should be clear that James is not disagreeing with Paul concerning works versus faith. The context clearly indicates that some of the people to whom James wrote ( you and me included ) were having problems with the issue of faith VS works. James shows that works are the necessary result of faith. Obedience to God forms the basis of incorruptible works. Further more, works without faith, though seen by the world as "good deeds", are not motivated by a love of the Father, but by guilt or self-serving motives. These are corruptible works of the flesh and will be consumed as God has declared.

Rebuttal?


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## farmasis (Aug 22, 2008)

gtparts said:


> Rebuttal?


 
None from me. Great post!


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 22, 2008)

Matt 13

18 "Hear then the parable of the sower: 19When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path. *20As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy*, 21yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. 22As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. 23As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty."


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## furtaker (Aug 22, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> I think the Bible is clear as a bell:
> 
> There is no such thing as once saved, always saved.
> 
> DW



Jesus said in John 6:47 (and many many other places), "Truly, truly, he who believes in Me has everlasting life."

According to Jesus, what is the one and only thing a person has to do to have everlasting life?

When do they get it?

How long would everlasting life last?

So, according to Jesus, can I be positvely certain I am going to heaven simply by believing in Him?  You bet.  That's the whole point.  No other man-made religion can compare to the free gift of eternal life.

This is an awesome truth.



rangerdave said:


> So you're saying Jesus should die again every time you screw up?



Good point.


----------



## farmasis (Aug 22, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> Matt 13
> 
> 18 "Hear then the parable of the sower: 19When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path. *20As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy*, 21yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. 22As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. 23As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty."


 
Interested to hear your explanation of this parable. Did the seed that fell on rocky ground that was not well rooted represent someone who lost their salvation?


----------



## gtparts (Aug 22, 2008)

farmasis said:


> Interested to hear your explanation of this parable. Did the seed that fell on rocky ground that was not well rooted represent someone who lost their salvation?



Absolutely not. The seed ( the Word of God) is the same for all 4 soil types. The 4 soil types represent 4 characteristics or types of people who receive the same seed. 

Therefore, the rocky soil is the unstable, flighty person who gets caught up in the emotional trap of the latest new and exciting thing. He/she falls for the hype and buys into shear novelty of the most current fad. Then, off to the next and the next and the  next.... 

 Know anyone like that? Must have the newest cell phone, the newest innovation in compound bow accessories, etc.

The Bible refers to them as double-minded. Never sure of one thing and willing to abandon the thing of known value for something of undetermined value. Constantly moving on to the allure of newer, bigger, better, faster.

BTW  
  There is a reason Christ called this the parable of the sower, for the sower is Christ ( and by extension , those who are obedient to the Great Commandment ).

 Since God doesn't will for any to remain lost and condemned by their sin, He casts "seed" on all types of "soil".  Unlike Georgia red clay, the "soil" of which Christ speaks (to a great extent) chooses what type of "soil" it will be.

Get the picture?


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## Ronnie T (Aug 22, 2008)

Absolutely.  

1.  He heard the word and received it with joy.  He welcomed it.  He was glad to receive it.

2.  And he continued in the word.  But only for a while. (We've all know people at church like that).  But when problems arise and the word begins to be too large an obligation, he fell away.  *He could not "fall away" from something that he didn't already have.

Don't forget, the soil is actually not soil, but man's heart.  God gave to him, he accepted, but did not endure to the end.  He endured for a while.

Notice that the "good heart" received and then "He indeed bears fruit and yields."
Bears fruit and yields.
Thar it is.


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## farmasis (Aug 22, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> Don't forget, the soil is actually not soil, but man's heart. God gave to him, he accepted, but did not endure to the end. He endured for a while.


 
So, if the soil is man's heart, and the parable says that since he has no root, the sun scortched it and it withered away.

If you have no root (foundation) taken hold in your soil (your heart) did you have salvation to lose?

Is this interpretation exactly what is meant by if they had been of us they would have remained with us?


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## Ronnie T (Aug 23, 2008)

farmasis said:


> So, if the soil is man's heart, and the parable says that since he has no root, the sun scortched it and it withered away.
> 
> If you have no root (foundation) taken hold in your soil (your heart) did you have salvation to lose?
> 
> Is this interpretation exactly what is meant by if they had been of us they would have remained with us?



I'll leave all that up to your interpretation.  I didn't actually think I was interpreting anything. I thought I was just reading it.  My bad.


----------



## MudDucker (Aug 23, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> Well, then, explain to me why there are tens of thousands of different Protestant denominations other than discernment problems within the Protestant churches.



For you to post an arrogant bash such as this and then wonder why some folks on here backlash at Catholics is beyond me.

You post nothing to support your own belief, but dismiss someone another's with this kind of hooey.

I'll not attack back, but I will ask, do you REALLY ignore the fact that there is much dissension and disagreement within the Catholic Church?


----------



## PWalls (Aug 23, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> Catholics have the Magisterium and it alone has authority to interpret Scripture.
> DW



Please explain how that group of men interpreting Scripture is any different than any other group of men interpreting Scripture.


----------



## farmasis (Aug 23, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> In the 2000 year history of the Catholic Church there may be a dozen or so churches who have called themselves a Catholic church. As of now, there are maybe 4 or 5. The RCC has 99.9999 percent of the population who call themselves Catholic. There are a few small pockets of crazies who have thier own "pope", really an anti-pope, and that's about it.
> Protestant churches have how many denominations? Why is that? It's because of the Protestant view of self interpretations of Scripture and dogma. Catholics have the Magisterium and it alone has authority to interpret Scripture. If you leave it up to everyone to interpret Scripture you have tens of thousands of interpretations and thus you have tens of thousands of Protestant churches.


 
 How much of a difference is 4-5 factions and hundreds?

Isn't a personal relationship with Christ, just that? Is the Magisterium responsible for that personal relationship also?



> That's not bashing Protestantism. That's just a fact. Initially, after Luther professed that Scripture was open to interpretation of the masses, it was heralded as a great idea by the masses. Calvin later saw the error in this because of the schisms it caused even within the Protestant churches. He then proclaimed that only trained pastors (HIS trained pastors) could accurately interpret Scripture. By then it was too late and chaos ensued. From a few Protestant sects believing a few different ways, the door was open to any crazy interpretation and now, 500 years later, we have tens of thousands of Protestant churches. The Protestant pie has many pieces.
> 
> Again, this isn't bashing, this is all historical fact.
> 
> DW


 
Another historical fact.

God ripped the veil giving all access directly to God. That is not from Luther.

What is the purpose of having a Holy Spirit and a magesterium?


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## gtparts (Aug 23, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> Men like Luther.



Farmasis, PWalls, et al ,

I'd have to say that your question can only be answered one way by any Child of the King. The Holy Spirit is the very presence of God on earth, indwelling the redeemed ( saved ) and giving confirmation to the Word of God, even the risen Son of God. 

So, what's a Magisterium?

Just kidding. 

 But does seem superfluous ( unnecessary redundancy ).

Never heard of any human or group thereof doing a better job of anything that God is already doing to perfection!

Perhaps they do something that the Holy Spirit doesn't do.


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## MudDucker (Aug 23, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> Also, to answer your question, Catholics as a whole agree with the church on all matters. Yes, there are few Catholics who don't agree with everything the church teaches. However, they are still going the the Roman Catholic Church, not breaking off and starting a new church with other disgruntled members. This has been the pattern that anyone who has been involved with a Protestant church has seen. I am included in that number.
> 
> I usedto go to FBC of Carrollton. Some members got hacked off about something and started Tabernacle Baptist church. THEN some members got mad there and started another church..then another...then another.
> 
> ...



I'm sorry, but this is not true.  I know many many Catholics and I've had some VERY deep theological discussions with them and I can tell you that most Catholics do not agree.  Not even most of the clergy agree on all of the doctrine.

Most Church splits are over personalities and not doctrine.  My own Church split several years ago, not over doctrine, but over stupid buildings.

You paint with a broad brush that is not factual.


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## farmasis (Aug 23, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> If that is so, why so many different interpretations of Scripture? Take two of Protestantisms greatest leaders, Luther and Calvin. Who was the Holy Spirit speaking to? They didn't believe the same things. Who was wrong? Who is to say who was wrong? In times of Scriptural disagreements, who did they go to? You'll say, "To God in prayer", but then what if both men say, "God told me I was correct." That's what they both thought.
> 
> Now who do they go to?


 
Why has the Catholic church changed it's view on many issues? Because they, like all the different interpretations of scripture, have man in them. It doesn't matter if one man thinks he must refrain from eating meat to be holy and one does not. That does not matter. People worship differently. I love a high spirited church led by praise music and a deep message exploring the Bible. Others might like old hymns, solemn church service and lighter biblical topics. To each his own. Because the Catholic church has splintered less often does not make it more right.



> Hypothetically speaking, I'm a child of God. I am redeemed by the Blood of Jesus Christ. I say that I will trust in the Magisterium's interpretation. Who are you to say that only those who are "saved" can answer the question the way you answered it?
> 
> DW


 
A personal relationship is just that. Personal. I don't care how the Magestrium interprets something. I don't care how RJ, RonnieT or others have interpreted something. It is all about my relationship to my God that has infused His spirit in me. I have God living in me. I don't need someone to tell me what he is. I can ask him. If he tells me something different than someone else, it doesn't make him wrong.


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## topcat (Aug 23, 2008)

Someone asked me the other day.... "when were you saved?"  I said, "this morning... again"

Don't y'all think you look like a bunch of school kids?


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## farmasis (Aug 23, 2008)

The Brazilian apostolic Catholic church claims 5,000,000 members and has broke from The Roman Catholic church.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Catholic_Apostolic_Church

There are between 1-7,000,000 traditionalist Catholics who, although claiming to be Roman Catholic do not agree with the Catholic church since the second vatican council.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditionalist_Catholic

The Old Catholic church broke from the Roman Catholic church after the first vatican council. The only figure that I find is about 250,000.
http://www.oldcatholicchurch.org/

There are about 77,000,000 anglicans that consider themselves Catholic and Protestant, and not in communion with the pope.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglicans

There are 13 million catholics in China that are not in communion with the pope. In fairness, most are probably forced to not be.

There are estimated almost 220,000,000 orthodox Catholics in many different groups.

http://www.wholesomewords.org/missions/greatc.html


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## gtparts (Aug 23, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> If that is so, why so many different interpretations of Scripture? Take two of Protestantisms greatest leaders, Luther and Calvin. Who was the Holy Spirit speaking to? They didn't believe the same things. Who was wrong? Who is to say who was wrong? In times of Scriptural disagreements, who did they go to? You'll say, "To God in prayer", but then what if both men say, "God told me I was correct." That's what they both thought.
> 
> Now who do they go to?
> 
> ...



Help me out here, Dick. As posed, the two options are 1) the Magisterium and 2) the Holy Spirit.   AND you choose the Magisterium as your authority for interpretation over the Holy Spirit??  

That is by far the scariest thing I have heard on this thread!!  

And BTW, how can one be a "child of God, hypothetically speaking"?  Either one is or one is Not. Christ leaves no middle ground.



30 The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? answer me. 
31 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then did ye not believe him? 
32 But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed. 
33 And they answered and said unto Jesus, We cannot tell. And Jesus answering saith unto them, Neither do I tell you by what authority I do these things. 

Personally, I find it more compelling to hear someone say that their understanding of scripture came from the Holy Spirit, rather than the Magisterium or " the lady on the bus". God has promised us discernment and given us a methodology for recognizing truth. The Word of God and the Holy Spirit are the benchmarks for testing.


----------



## Big7 (Aug 24, 2008)

farmasis said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> 
> Sure, the same reason there are different Catholic churches and the same reason they do not all believe the same.



farmasis:
There is only one Catholic Church. 
They all believe the SAME thing, trust me, I have no reason to lie to you!
That would be Churches (plural) that profess to
be in FULL COMMUNINON with The Pope, The Bishop
of Rome, Christs' living Vicar , here , on this earth.
There are many Rites, one of which I am part of:
The Latin, or Western Rite - one of the "Big Two".
The other being the Greek or Eastern Rite.
Same thing, Different culture, language, etc...
Believe me when I tell you they are the same Church!
More about that HERE: http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/catholic_rites_and_churches.htm

His numbers "jive" but...
Respectfully, with a little dis-agreement with DW's
earlier post - those "some" that have their "'own pope".
That is not possible - for the simple reason that 
"The Pope" MUST be elected by the College of Cardnials.
That is no easy task. Said candadate is usually part 
of that body, and as far as anyone knows would
 NEVER vote for himself. The catholic "c" - this and that's - are just that.
There is no such thing as a hyphenated, This (-)
or this (/) Catholic. If one does not profess to be
in FULL COMMUNION with the Pope - they are NOT
CATHOLIC, PERIOD.

"This trash treads dangerously close to Protestant bashing." 
farmasis: Please don't call my post's "trash"
I don't believe 
I have EVER done the same for you!Now, for the Protestant bashing part - farmasis:
You know I don't do that and I never have, in fact
you and I have agreed on more than we have not.
I have been on the "bashed" end more than I
want to remember and would NEVER do that to
another Christian Denomination as a whole.
Now, That does not mean I have not BASHED a person, that just
 happened to
be Protestant - If and when they needed one. bmpique
comes to mind. If I remember right a few Protestants
"Bashed" him too... With just cause.

Please don't call my posts' TRASH
I will do the same for you, unless you go bmpigue-est

DW already said it. If all (ten's of thousands of denominations) of Protestants
have the gift of being able to discern; then why do they 
collectively come up with different interpretations of
 Holy Scripture? If in fact, it is all Guided ByThe Holy Sprit
Like Catholics believe = one Church. Why does that not =  one Church, the same for Protestants?

I think it would be best for you to go back and read
through my post' r e a l   s l o w !
Looks to me like you had a knee - jerk. 
You know I don't "do" Protestant Bashing


----------



## Israel (Aug 24, 2008)

To say one belongs to a religion means nothing.
To say one does not belong to a religion also means nothing.
To even say "I believe in Jesus Christ" also often means nothing.

It would not be hard, indeed, would probably be like shooting fish in a barrel for anyone to take on a simple case by case basis how many pedophiles, murderers, abortion proponents, swindlers, liars and the like confess "I believe in Jesus" or I am a member of such and such religion.

Do we really care to discuss how many baptists watched crosses burn and made midnight calls upon frightened blacks right up to the 1960's?

How many catholic blades ran red with the blood of "infidels"?

So, what does it mean? It means you tell no one anything when you declare a religious affiliation...you can be completely untouched by the spirit of Christ...it is no more than telling someone "I am a doctor" or "I am a farmer"...and those outside the church the Lord judges.

But the difference is if someone says "I belong to Jesus"...then one is open to inspection by the church, by the spirit of God, not as under suspicion...but to prove what is good and acceptable to God. Every believer should  welcome this. 
The question to each of us is always "Who do you say I am"...and if we are believers the spirit of faith will cause us to speak.

To the brethren on here, we are all open to inspection. If a man says "I am this or that religion"...that is his business...but once any of us attaches the name of Jesus to our profession and seeks to associate Jesus with that confession...then the Holy Spirit is moved, for the Holy Spirit is here for one reason, to glorify Jesus...and also make plain what is of Jesus...and just as surely...what is not.

Look, I can tell you "I'm going fishing tomorrow", but the minute I say "I'm going fishing tomorrow because the Lord told me to"...the testing of the spirits and discernement is needed, and called for, and put into operation.

God is well able to show what is of him..and what is not.
So when one says "I believe in Jesus"...and in the same breath says they also belong to a religion that has a practice of men kneeling before their leader and kissing his ring...or a religion that boasts of its roots in some carnal historical period of "reformation"...then...let each have an answer for the hope that is within him. 

Jesus was not averse to being probed to show he was truly alive. Should we?


----------



## Israel (Aug 24, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> The Magesterium is led by the Holy Spirit. They have all of the tools needed to accurately interpret Scripture.
> 
> They are absolutely, completely educated.
> They are absolutely, completely dedicated to ONE task.
> ...



The magisterium is led by the prince of the power of the air.
You have made your confession as to who they are.
Obviously, another confession was just made.
God is not far off, the judge is near, even at the door.
Let God judge our words.


----------



## SBG (Aug 24, 2008)

Israel said:


> To say one belongs to a religion means nothing.
> To say one does not belong to a religion also means nothing.
> To even say "I believe in Jesus Christ" also often means nothing.
> 
> ...





Amen!


----------



## farmasis (Aug 24, 2008)

Big7 said:


> farmasis:
> There is only one Catholic Church.
> They all believe the SAME thing, trust me, I have no reason to lie to you!
> That would be Churches (plural) that profess to
> ...


 
The churches that I posted claim to not be in full communion with the pope in Rome.



> His numbers "jive" but...
> Respectfully, with a little dis-agreement with DW's
> earlier post - those "some" that have their "'own pope".
> That is not possible - for the simple reason that
> ...




I guess they disagree with you. They have their own pope and call themselves Catholic. I guess that is how you can claim that all Catholics are in full communion with the Pope, because if they aren't they aren't Catholic.



> "This trash treads dangerously close to Protestant bashing."
> farmasis: Please don't call my post's "trash"
> I don't believe
> I have EVER done the same for you!Now, for the Protestant bashing part - farmasis:
> ...


 
I am sorry you took that so personal since you didn't write it.



> DW already said it. If all (ten's of thousands of denominations) of Protestants
> have the gift of being able to discern; then why do they
> collectively come up with different interpretations of
> Holy Scripture? If in fact, it is all Guided ByThe Holy Sprit
> ...


 
You might not do it, but you did post it. Just because there are multiple Protestant churches, does not mean some are based on false doctrine. There is only one church, and it is the body of believers that have accepted Jesus as Lord. Those can be Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, Luthern, and even Islamic. Jesus is the key. Not the Pope. The pope cannot save you. The Magisterium cannot save you.

We get in trouble in here when we have to define what our religion is in terms of other's religion. This is what bmpque did. This is what your post did. Support what you believe without the use of why other's are wrong. Why is that so hard?


----------



## Big7 (Aug 24, 2008)

farmasis,
When I put those two posts up on another thread I SAID THEN
that I DID have some help from my sister. They are a collection of
of both of our thoughts.
She's a little better with wording stuff, that's all.
She is about on the same par as Jason as far as knowledge of Catholic Doctrine.

I think if you look back through my posts 99% of them have a "source" cited - that is if they are NOT my own words.
I don't make a practice of plagiarism either. 

Now, this is the OSAS or not forum, right?
You post why you believe OSAS and post why I
say No. Nothing wrong with that. That is what a forum is for.


----------



## farmasis (Aug 24, 2008)

Big7 said:


> Now, this is the OSAS or not forum, right?
> You post why you believe OSAS and post why I
> say No.


 

Is this part of the reason you do not believe in OSAS?



> Most protestant denominations believe to some degree in self-interpretation of the Bible. They believe that they are personally guided by the Holy Spirit and that they can discern the Spirit’s will. While it is true that the Spirit dwells within all of the faithful, there is a certain prideful danger in trusting your own discernment. In fact, false discernment is what has caused so many divisions among the Protestants (thousands of denominations, non-denominations and independent churches who disagree on the teachings of Christ). How can this be? If the Holy Spirit is guiding them, wouldn’t they all agree? Why would the Holy Spirit tell one church that they should baptize children, and another church that they shouldn’t? Or that one church must perform works and receive sacraments, but the other is saved by faith alone? Clearly, someone is discerning in error.



Did that add anything to your beliefs? 

I have a strong backbone. I can take it. But, when the same is returned, there sure seemed to be a lot of hurt feelings. I have been someone who has tried to keep Protestants from attacking Catholics beliefs because they were different. Why would I expect anything less from Catholics? If not, let's just go back to the free for all attack on each other.


----------



## Big7 (Aug 24, 2008)

*my response in RED.*



farmasis said:


> The churches that I posted claim to not be in full communion with the pope in Rome.
> 
> 
> That is why they are not Catholic.
> ...



My post did not do that. I must have said something
that rubbed you the wrong way - I assure you that
was not my intent

And I do post a lot of stuff supporting what I believe,
and why.


----------



## Big7 (Aug 24, 2008)

farmasis said:


> Is this part of the reason you do not believe in OSAS?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I do too.. Have a strong backbone, that is.
You are to be commend for your efforts to keep things civil on here.

As far as hurt feelings, like I said my intent was not to offed you. (or anybody else)
I have a pretty thick skin as well.
And no, I do not suggest we go back to the free-for-all,
of the past.

I try to be civilized too..


----------



## Big7 (Aug 24, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> The Magesterium is led by the Holy Spirit. They have all of the tools needed to accurately interpret Scripture.
> 
> They are absolutely, completely educated.
> They are absolutely, completely dedicated to ONE task.
> ...



BINGO. DW, That's all I've been saying.
I'm gona leave this one for a while.
See you guy's on another thread.


----------



## Big7 (Aug 24, 2008)

Israel said:


> The magisterium is led by the prince of the power of the air.
> You have made your confession as to who they are.
> Obviously, another confession was just made.
> God is not far off, the judge is near, even at the door.
> Let God judge our words.





Dick Winters said:


> Huh?



Another riddle, I guess?


----------



## MudDucker (Aug 24, 2008)

Are Jesuits Catholic?

100% of the priest are in sync...even those found to be sexual deviants?  That's not a slam, but it shows you that all priests do not agree on doctrine.


----------



## Buckmoses (Aug 24, 2008)

Now, When was the last time you saw anyone affiliated with a Protestant church accused, arrested, or convicted of molesting anyone?


Does this count?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtnJWtb4YRw&feature=related


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## farmasis (Aug 24, 2008)

DW, 
I am not posting this to say that Catholics are wrong, I am posting this to show why Protestants do not feel that we need a governing body to tell us what scripture means.


The Magesterium is led by the Holy Spirit. They have all of the tools needed to accurately interpret Scripture. 
So am I for the Bible says:

 10 But God has revealed _them_ to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. (1 Corinthians 2)
12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear _them_ now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own _authority,_ but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare _it_ to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare _it_ to you. (John 12) 
They are absolutely, completely educated.
But the Bible says the Lord gives knowledge and understanding:
 6 For the LORD gives wisdom, 
       and from his mouth come knowledge and understanding. (Proverbs 2)

They are absolutely, completely dedicated to ONE task.
But the Bible says to not accept his word as from men:
 13And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe. 

They have 2000 plus years of informations at their disposal.
But the Bible says he will tell us what we do not know
2 "This is what the LORD says, he who made the earth, the LORD who formed it and established it—the LORD is his name: 3 'Call to me and I will answer you and tell you great and unsearchable things you do not know.' (Jerimiah 33)

They have the ORIGINAL manuscripts of Scripture.
But the Bible says we have the word dwelling in us:
37And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 

They have 2000 plus years of written Tradition at their disposal.
But the Bible says we have a godly heritage and he will even instruct us while we sleep:

 5The LORD is the portion of mine inheritance and of my cup: thou maintainest my lot. 
 6The lines are fallen unto me in pleasant places; yea, I have a goodly heritage.  7I will bless the LORD, who hath given me counsel: my reins also instruct me in the night seasons.(Psalms 16)

Their only job is to interpret Scripture and Tradition.
But the Bible says we can know the truth:
Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." 

The idea that each man can interpret Scripture on his own was considered heresy since the beginning of time until Luther decided it should be so. Who was Luther to change?
But the Bible says we are to interpret scripture ourselves:
15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.


----------



## farmasis (Aug 24, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> Jesuits are Catholic.
> 
> Do you watch the news any? When's the last time you saw anyone affiliated with the Catholic Church accused, arrested, or convicted of molesting anyone?
> 
> ...


 

Do we really need to go there?


----------



## PWalls (Aug 24, 2008)

Guys, looks like another thread here turned into a Catholic/Protestand bash. Please move on. Will leave it open a little longer to see if it gets back on track. If it does, I'll just delete the last days worth of posts or so. If it continues to go down this path, I'll lock it.


----------



## Israel (Aug 25, 2008)

Actually...pop into your head is not a bad description of revelation. Once you didn't see, but then, BAM, in an instant the Lord's light shines and what was once hidden is suddenly  clear. 
Now you might say a lot of effort must go in beforehand to receive revelation, I would say...just follow Jesus and whatever effort that takes is sufficient. If you are following the Lord, he will make himself known to you...that is what revelation is. 
Revelation is given by the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit...to glorify Jesus...(an no one else)...it doesn't help if you are a genius, it doesn't hurt if you are a barely literate simple man. 
God likes using foolish things to confound the wise.

1 Corinthians 1: 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.


----------



## SBG (Aug 25, 2008)

farmasis said:


> DW,
> I am not posting this to say that Catholics are wrong, I am posting this to show why Protestants do not feel that we need a governing body to tell us what scripture means.
> 
> 
> ...



Excellent post.


----------



## gtparts (Aug 25, 2008)

farmasis said:


> DW,
> I am not posting this to say that Catholics are wrong, I am posting this to show why Protestants do not feel that we need a governing body to tell us what scripture means.
> 
> 
> ...



Excellent post, farmasis! 

It is by God's Word (primary, in order of sequence) and the  confirmation by the Holy Spirit ( secondary, in sequence ) with frequent referral by Him back to God's Word, that I test the words of men. 

I have no mastery of Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic. I use numerous translations and transliterations when seeking to understand what the original meaning of a scripture passage was communicating to the people of that day and it's application for me today. 

Obviously, my life spans a different time than when these words were written, affecting my ability to understand and making it necessary to "dig" for that information. There is no "magic" to Bible study. It requires some effort on the part of the person seeking understanding.

Ultimately I make use of The Gift of God (manifested at Pentecost after Christ's ascension ), ie,  the Holy Spirit, as His Holy Word instructs me to do. 

The Holy Spirit dwells within and while I may not have access to the Magisterium, I have no need of them ( or it) for by DW's own admission , we both are receiving our confirmation from the same source. When, the Magisterium declares what they assert is the true interpretation, I am still obligated to test their assertion according to God's Word, as I find NO instruction in God's Word regarding their utility for discerning  anything. In fact they are not even mentioned.

All of this is to say, that OSAS, whether you believe it to be true or not, need only be confirmed ( or denied ) to those saved by the Grace of God, by the Holy Spirit. One needs no intermediary!

I believe OSAS, but I'm open to considering the alternatives if anyone can convince me of the necessity for anything else to occur besides my confession of my sin, my repentance for that sin, my acceptance of Jesus as the Son of God, His substitutionary death on the cross, and His resurrection to make me absolutely certain of my eternal salvation. In other words, make me doubt OSAS. 

Quote scripture and back it up with sufficient evidence of accurate interpretation ( " the lady on the bus says" is NOT acceptable!!) and I'll check it out.

Gauntlet thrown! Would you believe "soft cotton glove gently set on the ground"?


----------



## toddboucher (Aug 25, 2008)

If you read the whole bible there is no way you could believe any thing but eternal security (or once saved always saved) but if look at or so verses you might see it different. The word saved is a finial word, Otherwise we are only saved after we get to heaven and we would never know if we crossed the line. 
2 Tim 2:13 If we are faithless, 
He remains faithful; 
      He cannot deny Himself.


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 25, 2008)

toddboucher said:


> If you read the whole bible there is no way you could believe any thing but eternal security (or once saved always saved).




Well, Oops, I've read the Bible front to back more than once and I haven't found that terminology any place in the Bible.


----------



## No. GA. Mt. Man (Aug 25, 2008)

If you can loose it what is the line in the sand? The Bible says God is no respecter of persons so what works for me would work for you.
What do you have to do to be lost again after being saved do you become lost if you let a curse word slip, pitch a mad fit on your wife, break the speed limit,get drunk, get into a fight, kill someone??? There has to be a cut off somewhere. What do I need to watch out for? I know I'm saved and if I can be lost again Jesus would have to die on the cross again because the first time wasn't worth anything but it was worth something the gift of God is eternal life.


----------



## crackerdave (Aug 25, 2008)

No. GA. Mt. Man said:


> If you can loose it what is the line in the sand? The Bible says God is no respecter of persons so what works for me would work for you.
> What do you have to do to be lost again after being saved do you become lost if you let a curse word slip, pitch a mad fit on your wife, break the speed limit,get drunk, get into a fight, kill someone??? There has to be a cut off somewhere. What do I need to watch out for? I know I'm saved and if I can be lost again Jesus would have to die on the cross again because the first time wasn't worth anything but it was worth something the gift of God is eternal life.



Amen,Brother - but for some,your last sentence will not sink in!


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 25, 2008)

Scripturally speaking, no one who seeks heaven will be denied it.  That is, if they believe in Jesus.  Your comments speak to your salvation.  
And Brother, your last sentence did sink in with me.  But verses such as the following have not sunk in with many. 

1Cor 15:1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 
*2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word *which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.


----------



## farmasis (Aug 26, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> Scripturally speaking, no one who seeks heaven will be denied it. That is, if they believe in Jesus. Your comments speak to your salvation.
> And Brother, your last sentence did sink in with me. But verses such as the following have not sunk in with many.
> 
> 1Cor 15:1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
> *2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word *which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.


 
Isn't Paul saying that unless you believe all that he told them, they believed in vain? In the following text, he states that Christ has been raised from the dead, but they do not believe in resurrecting power. So, he says how can you believe Christ was raised? And if Christ was not raised, then what good was your baptism?

12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. (1 Cor 15)

The whole rest of the chapter clears this one verse up. At least it does for me.
The believed in Jesus. They had faith. The problem is that they didn't have a saving faith. Just my $0.02


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 26, 2008)

farmasis said:


> Isn't Paul saying that unless you believe all that he told them, they believed in vain? In the following text, he states that Christ has been raised from the dead, but they do not believe in resurrecting power. So, he says how can you believe Christ was raised? And if Christ was not raised, then what good was your baptism?
> 
> 12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. (1 Cor 15)
> 
> ...



You're working very hard to make this verse say something that it did not.

Please go back and look at the first part of the verse now:  

1Cor 15:1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand."

It is very clear, Paul preached the gospel to them, they received it(denotes their acceptance), and now they stand on it(they have accepted discipleship).
.....Because of all that, they are saved, if IF they continue on in the word as preached.

That verse is a clear call for a life of discipleship in the life of a believer.


----------



## Big7 (Aug 26, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> Well, Oops, I've read the Bible front to back more than once and I haven't found that terminology any place in the Bible.



Me neither.


----------



## farmasis (Aug 26, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> You're working very hard to make this verse say something that it did not.
> 
> Please go back and look at the first part of the verse now:
> 
> ...


 
Ronnie, I know we don't agree, but reading the rest of the chapter is not hard. Instead of us trying to interpret, I say we just read and put it in context. Paul clearly explains that if they believed Jesus saved them, but did not believe Jesus was raised from the dead, then they did not have saving faith.


----------



## farmasis (Aug 26, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> I have to say that if you've ever read the Bible from front to back and you can believe in OSAS, then you haven't paid attention.


 

Did you deduce that, or did a group of people tell you to believe that? 

I am just joking, don't get upset.


----------



## Huntinfool (Aug 26, 2008)

I'll admit, I've not read through this thread.  So I'm coming in blind.  But I actually think that much of the argument about OSAS is semantics.

I think that most folks believe, bottom line, that if you are TRULY saved, you will not lose it.  The question, then becomes, CAN you?  I think the issue comes in with a "salvation experience".  I had many of those growing up, and had you asked me when I was 12 if I was saved I'd have said "Yep, second grade...Mrs. Bates class.".  

But it took over 30 years for me to have a TRUE experience with the living God...face to face.  Believe me.  You have an experience like that, ain't NO WAY you're walking away from it.  It's entirely too powerful.  

Once "salvation experienced", always "salvation experienced"?  Heck no!  I do not consider myself OSAS because I fully believe that you can tell God to shove it and walk away.  That's part of your free will.  He will not force himself on you.  He may force himself into your life (as he did with me).  But YOU make the decision.

It's a hard thing to explain.  I guess the question is can you give your life to God and then take it back?  I'm reminded of the guy (I don't remember his name) who was basically Billy Graham's second fiddle.  They travelled all over the world proclaiming the gospel together.  But, over time, he came to the conclusion that God did not exist even though he so badly wanted him to.  I've read about him several times and I wish I could have spoken to him before he died.  He was, at one point, fully convinced that his salvation was secure....but then walked away.  So was he ever saved?  I honestly don't have the answer. I think that he asked God to forgive his sins and repented....turned his life over.  So how did he walk away?

The OSAS arguments are not all that terribly important to me.  I guess that's why I stayed out of this for so long and have posted an incredibly long post that says nothing!!!!


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Aug 26, 2008)

A few quotes from Spurgeon:



> Had it been possible for you to have had salvation without sanctification, it would have been a curse to you instead of a blessing. If such a thing were possible, I cannot conceive of a more lamentable condition than for a man to have the happiness of salvation without the holiness of it; happily, it is not possible. 3300.210



A key part of Arminian theology is that you can loose your salvation hence the quotes below..



> I believe it is a mistake about God himself which has been the root and foundation of all the mistakes in theology. Our conviction is, that Arminian theology, to a great extent, makes God to be less than he is. 394.370





> The basis and groundwork of Arminian theology lies in attaching undue importance to man, and giving God rather the second place than the first. 406.465


----------



## Huntinfool (Aug 26, 2008)

Well I guess that explains our differences then.  I grew up Wesleyan Arminian and am full of those beliefs.  

So, of course, I do not agree with those last quotes.  I don't pretend to have the answer to the question at hand.  I do, however, believe that God has given us free will and that he allows us to make a choice to accept or reject.  I suppose Spurgeon would suggest I give man too much importance in the matter.  On that point, we will simply have to disagree.

One thing I will say is that I know, without question, that God is desperate to love me; to be in intimate relationship with me and to use me for something big for his kingdom.  Whether I made that call or he did, I'm glad it's true.  

I will share just a little bit of why I know that.  He gave me a lot of leash for a long time and I took whatever I could take.  Then, when he'd had enough of me throwing his promptings back in his face, he threw me down pretty hard and pretty low....no REALLY low.  It was at that moment that I had a decision to make.  He did not make it for me.  He offered me a final chance and, thank God, I broke.  Had nothing left to hang on to.  THAT is the moment for me and I'll be grateful for it for eternity.  

So, you see, I don't care whether he made the decision or I did.  I tend to think that it was a joint effort.  He made the first move...I closed the deal.  But I could have walked away.  I absolutely could have.  Many of you have never been at a place that low and I thank God you haven't.  Get to the point where the only thing you can say to him is "Kill me or change me".  Doctrinal discussions just don't mean much to you at that moment.

Did I profess salvation before that time?  You bet I did.  Was I actually saved?  I honestly don't know.  I do agree with Spurgeon on this point though, _"I cannot conceive of a more lamentable condition than for a man to have the happiness of salvation without the holiness of it"_


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## SBG (Aug 26, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> I have to say that if you've ever read the Bible from front to back and you can believe in OSAS, then you haven't paid attention.


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## Double Barrel BB (Aug 26, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> One thing I will say is that I know, without question, that God is desperate to love me; to be in intimate relationship with me and to use me for something big for his kingdom. Whether I made that call or he did, I'm glad it's true.


 

*AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## farmasis (Aug 26, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> A key part of Arminian theology is that you can loose your salvation hence the quotes below..


 

I am a one point Calvanist. I believe in the preservation of the saints.


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## farmasis (Aug 26, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> One thing I will say is that I know, without question, that God is desperate to love me; to be in intimate relationship with me and to use me for something big for his kingdom. Whether I made that call or he did, I'm glad it's true.


 
That is why I have said, and will again... It doesn't matter what you believe in salvation. It won't change it. It doesn't matter how you got it. It does matter what you have. If you believe Jesus died on the cross for your sins for the purpose of propitiation of that sin to cover the retribution from God towards you, and that he was raised and now sits on the right of the Father interceding for you- then you are truely saved, and in my opinion always saved.
Some believe that you can't believe that unless chosen from the begining and you had no choice to believe it or not. Some believe you can come to that colusion and accept or reject those facts. I am in the latter group. I can support my belief biblically. I believe Jesus stated it plainly and does not require interpretation to understand it. I can stand firm in my beliefs. I know there are scriptures that seem to counter that.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 26, 2008)

farmasis said:


> That is why I have said, and will again... It doesn't matter what you believe in salvation. It won't change it. It doesn't matter how you got it. It does matter what you have. If you believe Jesus died on the cross for your sins for the purpose of propitiation of that sin to cover the retribution from God towards you, and that he was raised and now sits on the right of the Father interceding for you- then you are truely saved, and in my opinion always saved.
> Some believe that you can't believe that unless chosen from the begining and you had no choice to believe it or not. Some believe you can come to that colusion and accept or reject those facts. I am in the latter group. I can support my belief biblically. I believe Jesus stated it plainly and does not require interpretation to understand it. I can stand firm in my beliefs. I know there are scriptures that seem to counter that.



I pretty much agree.  I don't care how you got it, just that you did.  There are some that will say that makes me a pragmatist and that I'm diluting the truths of God.  I'm not trying to be defiant or argumentative...I just, honestly, don't care if they think that.  

I am in the latter group as well.  But if Jesus tells me I was wrong all along when I finally get to see him, it won't hurt my feelings.  I'll just be glad to be there for the conversation!

I agree farmasis.  It doesn't matter what you believe about salvation...it won't change it and for that I'm glad.


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## Big7 (Aug 29, 2008)

SBG said:


>




So typical.


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## Banjo (Aug 30, 2008)

I don't know how I missed this one.

If God is the author and the finisher of our faith, then one can NEVER lose their salvation.  God keeps us "saved."  This is what Calvinists call "Perseverance of the Saints."

However, if many gets to make a "decision" to become saved, can't he make a "decision" not to believe any more?  You see it all the time in the modern evangelical church.  All those people who made professions of faith during "revival" (as if man could decide when and where the Holy Spirit should show up), and then got baptized, can't be found 6 months later.  

Decisional regeneration has offered false assurance to many...


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## MudDucker (Aug 30, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> Jesuits are Catholic.
> 
> Do you watch the news any? When's the last time you saw anyone affiliated with the Catholic Church accused, arrested, or convicted of molesting anyone?
> 
> ...



There was no delicate way to broach that subject.  It was not intended as an indictment of the Catholic Church, nor as a statement that non-Catholic denominations are any better in that regard.  It just shows that the Magisterium that you so rely upon are fallible humans as well as all other men and therefore have no greater claim to understanding than you or I.  If you perceived this as an attack, I apologize.

The Holy Spirit is the guide and without it, there is no understanding.


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## gtparts (Aug 30, 2008)

Banjo said:


> I don't know how I missed this one.
> 
> If God is the author and the finisher of our faith, then one can NEVER lose their salvation.  God keeps us "saved."  This is what Calvinists call "Perseverance of the Saints."
> 
> ...



I believe that it's more like unscrambling an egg. If you really crack that egg into a bowl and hit it with a whisk , fork , or mixer there ain't no way to put it back in the shell like it never happened. If the Holy Spirit comes into you at the true point of salvation and you are changed (read that as "become a new creature" ) that work of the Spirit can't be undone. Problem is that some people look at the egg, some pick the egg up and gently put it back in the carton, some even gently crack the egg without breaking the inner membrane and return it to the carton. They are the deceived of Satan. They think they are saved but they have never stepped over the line and had their egg scrambled. 

Just cause you can make a decision doesn't mean you can undo it. Try unkilling a deer! 

Peace be to you and yours.


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## Big7 (Sep 27, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> The scripture you used and the scripture I used seem to contradict each other.  Which should we delete from the Holy Bible?  We obviously cannot.
> You cannot ignore the scripture I have provided for you.
> I cannot ignore the scripture you provided.
> They must be used together.
> ...



Thought you guy's ALWAYS SAY Scripture can not
contradict each other.


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## Israel (Sep 27, 2008)

Big7 said:


> Thought you guy's ALWAYS SAY Scripture can not
> contradict each other.



Seem is a very big word.


Trying to be right, however, smacks of smallness.

No contradictions in Jesus.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 27, 2008)

Big7 said:


> Thought you guy's ALWAYS SAY Scripture can not
> contradict each other.





Man, you must have stayed up late reading month old stuff.

Scripture do not contradict and compete against each other.  That was my point.  They have to be used together rather than ignore one or the other.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 27, 2008)

farmasis said:


> That is why I have said, and will again... It doesn't matter what you believe in salvation. It won't change it. It doesn't matter how you got it. It does matter what you have. If you believe Jesus died on the cross for your sins for the purpose of propitiation of that sin to cover the retribution from God towards you, and that he was raised and now sits on the right of the Father interceding for you- then you are truely saved, and in my opinion always saved.



I don't what to be contrary, but I don't see salvation this way anymore, if I ever did. What conscerns me is the part "If you believe Jesus died on the cross..for sins... raised  and now sits on the right of the Father interceding for you-then you are saved."

I can find many individual who believe this and undertand this and it is as far as they go.  They say once saved always saved  yet much of their ways are still the ways of the old man, or the old Adam. Their outlook, their actions are a football field apart from being Christ-like or Isaiah-like etc.

Many people believe perhaps justly that Saten runs the world and the bulk of the  world is satanic and it is the pilgims job trought the intercession of Jesus to extricate himself/herself from it the best they can and this includes fighting evil with evil. I say perhaps, because I don't see this, I believe the world is full of God's spirit, it is just that few are even considering walking in it. AND this includes many of the self proclaimed, SAVED.

I think there is more to salvation whereby you must believe this, yes, but it also has to do with Grace. I have a feeling, a thinking reasoning that  the interceding that Jesus does he already did do by his teaching and training of the deciples concerning Grace as a rules of the road for the New Kingdom and by his intersesion trough the Holy Spirit, which is the Father and Jesus himself!

I'm not much at quoting scripture but this is what I find by reading it that God says: Saved is as saved does. You can say Lord, Lord I am saved throught Jesus who's sacrafice was to renew, man from perdition retake, and yet not know or not do as was my teaching and your walk is not in the Way.

And therefore this is how the blind lead the blind? Or for what many see outwardly, they cannot see the Father in Christ nor grasp at the Christ inwardly or the Holy Spirit that was/is a gift.? Now I have asked and this was as far as I was permitted to see. I am curtain there is more.



In some ways a " hardened Saved person" is a hard student to teach in order to learn new tricks even by the Holy Spirit. Salvation is a relationship that goes both ways and deals in Grace for Grace. I don't think that the acceptance of Christ the sacrafice is our graduation day. It is our first day at school and the Holy Spirit is our Ma and Paw walking us into a new world.

But then I might be totally wrong. I have a bum ear, my eyes grow dimmer and dimmer and my mind is on its way to second adolecence, fences are a match for my legs and much more.


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## farmasis (Sep 27, 2008)

gordon 2 said:


> What conscerns me is the part "If you believe Jesus died on the cross..for sins... raised and now sits on the right of the Father interceding for you-then you are saved."


 
Jesus said to her [Martha], "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. _Do you believe this?_"
(John 11:25-26)



> I can find many individual who believe this and undertand this and it is as far as they go. They say once saved always saved yet much of their ways are still the ways of the old man, or the old Adam. There outlook, there actions are a football field apart from being Christ-like or Isaiah-like etc.


 
I can't tell if a person is saved or not. That is God's job. As much as it appears that someone who doesn't live a Christian life in our eyes and we think is not saved what about the opposite. What about those well dressed folks in our church that say the right things and do the right things, but do not truely believe...imagine how the pharisees felt for doing everything right and was chastised by Jesus.

It isn't the life we live that determines our salvation. We should live as Christ's example, of course.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 27, 2008)

farmasis said:


> Jesus said to her [Martha], "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. _Do you believe this?_"
> (John 11:25-26)
> 
> I most certainly do. But what is the use of belief(understanding) if it does not point to our actions. In a relationship do we not have understanding so that actions can be of benefit? I have always said  or meant thatbelief in Him is more than a statement in faith, it is a means to an end. For example, I can say I believe in my current Prime Minister. O course he lives, but I mean that I agree with his politics.
> ...



Someone said just a few post down that salvation was belief in the Sacrafice of Christ, redemtion and His resurection! So I took it to mean they knew if a person was saved!

About living our lives and salvation. One could say for purpose of discussion that Job, the so called patient soul, lived two lives.  And in his case it was not what he did that was an indication of his spiritual state, it was his understanding of God which was blinded by the sin of pride. So you are correct that in this case it is not works that determine salvation.

But, what if through the gift of the Son, our redeption, the cleansing for our sin,  and the help of the Holy Spirit which to the christian is individually intimate, we are given Job's second life back, our new life, and ignore a walk that is graceful or do as the "world" to get by? What has been saved?

Lots of folk say they are saved, but their salvation is a taslisman, a good luck charm against satan  which lives just next door at their neigbours' who they are rightiously at war with! And some have lots of neighbours.


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## farmasis (Sep 27, 2008)

gordon 2 said:


> But, what if through the gift of the Son, our redeption, the cleansing for our sin, and the help of the Holy Spirit which to the christian is individually intimate, we are given Job's second life back, our new life, and ignore a walk that is graceful or do as the "world" to get by? What has been saved?


 
The soul.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 27, 2008)

farmasis said:


> The soul.



If I was a scripture quoting man now would be the time to use it!

How about the section writ about the  soul as under the  guise of a lamp in a vessel whereby it sheds not light? For all intent and purpose though it is light, if it gives not light, it is not light. Light has a purpose otherwise than just reading The Book? Same thing about being saved?

Brother, I do not doubt you are a light both because of the faith you hold and that your soul is true, and know it by what you say and do.


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## farmasis (Sep 27, 2008)

gordon 2 said:


> If I was a scripture quoting man now would be the time to use it!
> 
> How about the section writ about the soul as under the guise of a lamp in a vessel whereby it sheds not light? For all intent and purpose if is not gives not light and is not light. Light has a purpose otherwise than just reading The Book?
> 
> Brother, I do not doubt you are a light both because of the faith you hold and that your soul is true, and by what you say and do.


 
Like I said, all I know is what the Word says and the fact that I can't judge a heart. I can be fooled by those looking saved and those who don't look that way. I can look at the outer appearance of someone who appears 'unworthy' of salvation because of their lifestyle and they wouldn't be justified in my eyes. But, my eyes don't count.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 28, 2008)

If everybody just repeats their replies here it will ratchet up the count to 654posts and possibly 7340 views. I wonder if the purpose of speaking in tongues was not to contribute to bringing down the tower of Babal? or adding links to the tower?LOL

In any case, Salvation and it alone has garnered here lost attention in my view. ( I'm repeating myself, I suppose.)

When I think of not knowing what is in a man's heart I think of what I know about King David, who did the best he could, sinned and knew intense delight in his relationship with the Lord. I have always said that had he been my neigbour, I would have suspected by his works that he was a lost soul.

But by his will to change, to return to his most cherished love, to change the way he acted or did things in the proper way, I perhaps could have loved him for such enterprize. David was a doer. His prize, his goal was it himself only or his  and God's people? his soul and/or Isreal the object of God's love? David was a doer and inspite of the "salvation of his soul", he now and then got in trouble for doings out of the way.

It is one thing to share the different things of the church and to know our salvation and as David did  feed the soldiers but it is another to commit adultry against God with the same soul and that David did and that,  in disgrace,  I continue to do?

Once saved, always saved depends of what you do, which in turn depends on what you know if you permit the Holy Spirit to guide. The so called saved soul some say it is a fruit, I say it is a seed. From my Father's garden it was given me. Now I can make grits or sow it. Salvation has purpose other than keeping itself a prize at odds with the "world"?

***Also while researching  the history of the reformation demolition derby I found by happy accident this bit of scripture which I will plan to paint on the side of my wreck, if I indeed decide to participate in a forum study of the reformation.

Here is the bit of add: Matt6:33 "But seek first of all His kingdom and His rihteousness and then all these things taken together will be given you besides."

 Is salvation perhaps one of those things given besides? Me thinks so. But I am perhaps wrong.


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