# First of many?



## DaddyPaul (Jul 24, 2012)

Bear Super Kodiak...28/50, compound DL was 29.5, been told it will be around an inch shorter with trad.  Nock is 3/4" high and I'm shooting three under.  Stock hair on shelf and leather on side plate.

Bought a dozen gorgeous Pink/Black GT 3555 Blems from The Large One.  Installed 50 grain brass inserts and 175 grain field tips.  Waiting on feathers so figured I'd bare shaft em in my spare time.

From 5 yards these shafts enter my 18-1 Cube with the nock way left, which I'm assuming indicates a weak spine.  From 15 yards you can literally see the shaft whipping through space almost sideways.  Dropping to 100 grain tips doesn't help much at all.  3555 are full length BTW.

I've read 9,843 threads about people getting these arrows to fly perfectly out of very similar bows to mine, some even with longer draw lengths and more poundage.  What gives?  I'm getting very consistent POI with them as well as nock left in target.  Not sure lopping off two inches is going to help much.

Mark Land....I know where Cartersville is!


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## DaddyPaul (Jul 24, 2012)

Help threads that is...first of many.


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## 2wheelfoster (Jul 24, 2012)

I have a Bear Grizzly that is 50 lbs @ 28. My draw is close to 28. I shoot full length GT 3555's with 175 grains up front out of it. In fact they fly great out of my Buffalo Bow from the Large One also (It's 53@28). I am guessing you have too much weight up front. Try a 125 gr. field tip.


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## devolve (Jul 24, 2012)

cut your shaft down, you will be suprised how much it helps. and a little under spine is A ok. Might want to cut a couple inches off the shaft and go down to a 150gr FP for 200 up front total. Should shoot pretty good for you then


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## Apex Predator (Jul 25, 2012)

Don't do anything until you fletch some up.  At 5 yards the arrow is not out of paradox yet.  There are a lot of ifs at this point.  What do they do at 10 or even 15 yards?


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## DaddyPaul (Jul 25, 2012)

Apex Predator said:


> Don't do anything until you fletch some up.  At 5 yards the arrow is not out of paradox yet.  There are a lot of ifs at this point.  What do they do at 10 or even 15 yards?



Fly kinda sideways.  Enter target bad nock left.


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## DaddyPaul (Jul 25, 2012)

Both from about 5 yards.


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## gurn (Jul 25, 2012)

Yep looks and sounds too weak for your set up. Do ya want me ta send ya ah 400 and give it ah try?? You could try just cuttin one of your 35/55s down ta see what happens.


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## DaddyPaul (Jul 25, 2012)

gurn said:


> Yep looks and sounds too weak for your set up. Do ya want me ta send ya ah 400 and give it ah try?? You could try just cuttin one of your 35/55s down ta see what happens.



I've got some 28.5" 400s but even with 175 tips they react slightly stiff.  I'll cut some off of one of the 3555s and see what happens.


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## 2wheelfoster (Jul 25, 2012)

I would try less weight before I cut...I have heard that for every inch you cut on a carbon you have to add 100 gr's back to get the spine to where it was.


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## Cavalry Scout (Jul 25, 2012)

I have a similair set up, 50/28,28 draw length.  Im shooting GT expeditions at 29". 100 grn brass inserts and 125grn fld tips and 125 grn woodsman broadheads.  Total weight is only around 450grn.  Seem to be pretty good for me.


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## DaddyPaul (Jul 25, 2012)

2wheelfoster said:


> I would try less weight before I cut...I have heard that for every inch you cut on a carbon you have to add 100 gr's back to get the spine to where it was.



Still show weak with a 100 grain tip.


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## sawtooth (Jul 25, 2012)

If I may...... that is not a terrible nock left. Saw off 1/4 inch and use same point weight.


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## DaddyPaul (Jul 25, 2012)

sawtooth said:


> If I may...... that is not a terrible
> nock left. Saw off 1/4 inch and use same point weight.



Absolutely you may.  Pics may not show it well.  At 15 yards the nock literally whips to the left in flight and they stick in target the same.  Don't have a saw at home so I fletched one up tonight.  Will try it in AM and see what happens.  If still same I'll start lopping some off and see if we can get her right.

Thanks for input.


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## sawtooth (Jul 25, 2012)

I wouldn't cut more than 1/4 off at the time, spend the time and get it right. Once you get it dead on, you'll know it.


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## johnweaver (Jul 25, 2012)

Not trying to throw rocks, but I can duplicate the arrow effect you are experiencing by "Plucking The String".  When I first started using my fingers instead of a mechanical release aid it appeared that my arrows were spending alot of time flying sideways to the target.  It took a little while to realize the problem was with me and not the equipment.  Might be something to consider.  Try shooting with someone watching you, and see where your string hand goes after the string leaves your fingers, if your hand leaves the side of your face during the release  the arrow will react to the  lateral motion by going the opposite direction.  I'm a right handed shooter, my hand fly's out to the right when I release so my arrows tend to fly nock left.  Try to concentrate on letting the string drop away from your fingers without moving your fingers away from your anchor point.  Just a suggestion.


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## DaddyPaul (Jul 26, 2012)

johnweaver said:


> Not trying to throw rocks, but I can duplicate the arrow effect you are experiencing by "Plucking The String".  When I first started using my fingers instead of a mechanical release aid it appeared that my arrows were spending alot of time flying sideways to the target.  It took a little while to realize the problem was with me and not the equipment.  Might be something to consider.  Try shooting with someone watching you, and see where your string hand goes after the string leaves your fingers, if your hand leaves the side of your face during the release  the arrow will react to the  lateral motion by going the opposite direction.  I'm a right handed shooter, my hand fly's out to the right when I release so my arrows tend to fly nock left.  Try to concentrate on letting the string drop away from your fingers without moving your fingers away from your anchor point.  Just a suggestion.



It's all good johnweaver, I didn't see any rocks and you may be right on the money.  I shot compounds with a back tension release due to target panic and understand what a surprise release feels like.  I'm doing my best to keep strong in my back muscles and let the string "slip" from my fingers but I'm sure it isn't super clean as I've just started shooting trad.

Thanks for the suggestion.


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## DaddyPaul (Jul 26, 2012)

The one I fletched seems to fly great.  Just see a chartreuse blur as it spins away from the bow.  Shot it out to 30 yards and no real noticeable wiggle, waggle or anything.

Not sure if I'm shooting well enough to judge perfectly if it is hitting where I'm looking or not?


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## markland (Jul 26, 2012)

Yep definitely weak and gonna have to trim them down.  If you are set on your point weight then start cutting 1/2in at a time and reshoot, you should start to see a difference, but your form has to be good as well, a bad release can give you a different flight on your shaft, make several shafts to evaluate before cutting.  Get them until they are just barely weak at 10 and 20yds then your good.
Nock should be set high enough to not cause any interference.
I can shoot my bareshaft tuned bows with a bareshaft out to 30-40yds perfectly straight with no problem, in fact I have even shot targets and 3-d's with bareshafts and they fly great.  Getting a bow perfectly bare shaft tuned is a thing of beauty and instills the upmost confidence in your setup and as with many things, but especially traditional archery, confidence is everything.
Hey buddy you know I'm always here if you need any help!


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## gurn (Jul 27, 2012)

Yep I agree but you got more patients than me.
My moto is... Feathers covers ah multitude ah sins.
Daddy Paul..dont listen ta me.


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## DaddyPaul (Jul 28, 2012)

Apparently my almost 45 year old eyes aren't what they used to be.  Paper tuned this morning ang got very consistent high/left tears.  Arrow saw will be here Monday.  Time to get serious but with a 30" arrow I don't have a lot to work with.  Hoping they'll tune inside about an inch shorter.  Don't want to drop point weight but will prior to buying new arrows.  Stay tuned...


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## markland (Jul 30, 2012)

Just keep working on it but dump the paper and just bareshaft tune at 10yds and you will be fine.


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## DaddyPaul (Jul 30, 2012)

markland said:


> Just keep working on it but dump the paper and just bareshaft tune at 10yds and you will be fine.



Got my saw today and whacked one shaft down to about 29"s.  At about 12 feet I can get them almost straight in target, slight nock left and a fuzz high.  Back up much further and I can see tail wagging.  POI is close but not spot on from 20 yards.  Can't cut much further off the shaft at this point.  Only thing left is to go down in point weight or fletch em up and hope for the best.


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## DaddyPaul (Jul 30, 2012)

Pulled the 50 grain brass inserts and replaced them with the ones that came with the Gold Tip Blems.  Seems a little better, was shooting at a mushroom in the dark from about 15 or 18 yards and POI was good left/right but nock was still a little left.  Can't see flight of fletched one so it'll have to wait until tomorrow.  I think I'm getting close now, cut about an inch off of all of them, stay with stock inserts and 175 heads and start practicing.


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## markland (Jul 31, 2012)

As long as they are just a little nock left or weak, you should be fine when you fletch them and will get excellent arrow flight.  
Otherwise you will have to start dropping tip weight to stiffen them up or go up in spine and start all over again!
make sure you have the bow setup just like you will be hunting, I am talking silencers on the string, quiver mounted on bow with arrows in it, etc.  Anything you add to the string or bow will affect the spine of your arrows slightly and adding silencers and quiver to the bow will stiffen up your arrows as well.  Also any major changes in brace height can affect spine too.  Lengthen the brace height and you stiffen the spine, decrease brace height and you weaken the spine.
BUT, once you get your shafts spine tuned for the bow all you have to do from there is just keep track of brace height and nock pt and you are done and all your shafts, as long as they are the same spine, will tune the same.


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## DaddyPaul (Jul 31, 2012)

Everything but quiver is on the bow, still not sure what I am going to use, definitely want a bow mounted job though.  I think with the stock inserts and 175 tips I'm going to be good.  That is basically what the two loaner arrows were set up like and they are lasers.  Think it's time to fletch them all up and really start practicing.

I am shooting WAY better than anticipated though.  Always had better than average hand/eye coordination.  I guess that helps some?


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## markland (Jul 31, 2012)

Yep you put that quiver on the bow with some arrows in it and I guarantee you those shafts will stiffen up some, so sounds good!


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## DaddyPaul (Jul 31, 2012)

Thanks for all the help Mark!


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## DaddyPaul (Jul 31, 2012)

Still got a dadgum wiggle/waggle in fletched arrow with standard insert and 175 grain tip.  Probably should have gone with .400 spine.

Anybody have a spear for sale?


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## markland (Jul 31, 2012)

Move nock up a little bit and see if that helps!


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## DaddyPaul (Jul 31, 2012)

markland said:


> Move nock up a little bit and see if that helps!



Should've gone with the .400's like somebody told me too.  I'll move nock up a little and see what happens.  Right at 5/8"s now.


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## ChrisSpikes (Jul 31, 2012)

Before you give up and go to .400's, try building out the side plate.  A little change can make a big difference.  Just the thickness of a toothpick or match can do it. 

As far as nock height goes, I've always had better luck setting it with a fletched shaft.  Start out high, and then gradually lower it until you see a noticeable "kick up".  Then raise it back up a hair.  Every time I've gotten it set perfect with a bare shaft, I end up having to raise it with fletched shafts because of quill thickness.


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## DaddyPaul (Jul 31, 2012)

ChrisSpikes said:


> Before you give up and go to .400's, try building out the side plate.  A little change can make a big difference.  Just the thickness of a toothpick or match can do it.
> 
> As far as nock height goes, I've always had better luck setting it with a fletched shaft.  Start out high, and then gradually lower it until you see a noticeable "kick up".  Then raise it back up a hair.  Every time I've gotten it set perfect with a bare shaft, I end up having to raise it with fletched shafts because of quill thickness.



Been wanting to replace everything with Velcro for hunting, arrow can hit too much wood near leather side plate as is.  It looks like it is thicker than the leather that came on it.  Give it a try later, smoking a bunch of pork for Pastor's Bday party now and took a break...before I break IT.


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## markland (Jul 31, 2012)

Yeah 5/8 is pretty normal but would not think you would need to go higher unless your drawing 3-under and putting alot of lower finger pressure on the string or your tiller is way off on the bow.
As Chris said changing side plate thickness or centershot can change the spine of the arrow as well and creating more centershot will require a weaker arrow.  Would not hurt to try that and see what works, but typically for me I always set the centershot on my bows so the arrow point is just on the outside edge of the string and tune from there so all my bows shoot to the same point side to side so I don't have to change up my shooting or aiming.  Even the material of the side plate can make a difference, soft padding will stiffen the shaft, harder material will weaken it.


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## DaddyPaul (Jul 31, 2012)

And I swithced to traditional archery for the simplicity of it...


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## markland (Jul 31, 2012)

Sorry bud but it is really simple once you get the right arrow for your bow, your just having trouble trying to make a arrow fit your bow that requires a little more work, but hang in there, once you get it it is done and you can just concentrate on doing the shooting.  Takes a little time sometimes to get the bare shaft tuning done, but once your done, that's it unless you change equipment, draw, or tip weight.


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## DaddyPaul (Aug 2, 2012)

I just think they are a bit weak and unless I drop a heap of tip weight things won't change.  I've tried everything I've read and heard at this point.

Command decision was to cut them down as much as I felt comfortable doing.  Ended up at 29.25"s, any shorter and they get too close to my hand.  Fletching them now.

I know for a fact they will shoot MX4s dead on with field tips and I also have a big two blade I found a few years back that shoots like a laser.  Maybe with the lighter inserts these 175 grain heads will work.  Heck I can't hit anything past 8 steps anyhow.


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## markland (Aug 3, 2012)

For hunting purposes I tend to tune my bareshafts to be slightly weak and slightly nock high, this gives me a more forgiving arrow for hunting and less critical to form error or short drawing as well.  I definitely do not want to be stiff when tuning as it tends to make broadhead flight a little more critical, if that helps!


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## DaddyPaul (Aug 3, 2012)

Mark,
You always know the right thing to say...


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## markland (Aug 3, 2012)

I'm good ain't I!!!!


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## DaddyPaul (Aug 3, 2012)

....and they still fly like crap.

Maybe chartreuse is too bright and shows the flight imperfections too easily.  Yeah, that's it.  

I wish someone would have suggested a 400 spine for my set up.


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## markland (Aug 3, 2012)

Maybe your just seeing alot of the spinning of the fletching in flight???  Or your paying too much attention to watching the flight of your arrow and less on how much finger pressure you have on the string, your bow arm, or other form????  LOL


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## DaddyPaul (Aug 3, 2012)

markland said:


> Maybe your just seeing alot of the spinning of the fletching in flight???  Or your paying too much attention to watching the flight of your arrow and less on how much finger pressure you have on the string, your bow arm, or other form????  LOL



Could be Mark.  I've gone from 1/2" high all the way to nearly 7/8"s nock height.  Only change was at 1/2 I was getting some deformation of bottom hen feather.  Built side plate out, nothing.  Only thing left to do is drop point weight, which is then going to give me a fairly light arrow I would imagine.

Can't cut anymore off the arrows or I'll lose a finger or two when hunting.  Definite weeble/wobble action in flight with these things.


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## DaddyPaul (Aug 3, 2012)

100 grain tips on these same arrows and they shoot perfect.  No wobble or anything.  FACT


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## markland (Aug 3, 2012)

Sounds like you found your setup with those shafts then, but what do they weigh with 100gr tips?
If they are too light just go ahead and get some stiffer shafts and start over again, but do it now before you get too frustrated and try to shortcut or not take the time to get them right.  It can get frustrating when you are working with it and have inconsistencies or problems but hang in there and it will happen.


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## markland (Aug 3, 2012)

I had to drop down to 100gr tips with this Buffalo bow to get my arrows spined correctly and am shooting a 495gr arrow at 180fps and blasted thru almost everything I shot last year, only had the arrow hang in 2 deer and that was because the broadhead was embedded in the far shoulder on 1 and the other I broke the front shoulder on exit with the broadhead poking out.  This was with both Muzzy 100gr 4bl and Phantom 4bl heads.  Some of the shots the arrow zipped thru so fast I had trouble finding them and on my bear in the tree, the last I saw of that arrow was it sailing over the valley below, no telling how far that arrow went?


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## DaddyPaul (Aug 3, 2012)

Just shy of 400 grains...too light in my opinion.  Good thing I'm rich, huh?


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## markland (Aug 3, 2012)

Yep that would be too light in my opinion as well, I always try to stay around 500grs or more, you just going to have to pick up some stiffer arrows and start again, sorry!


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## DaddyPaul (Aug 3, 2012)

They also seem a little "touchy".  Although they fly straight they seem very finnicky to making a perfect release or they miss the spot by quite a bit.  Make sense?


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## markland (Aug 3, 2012)

Yes it does, if your arrow is not well tuned for the bow it is not forgiving as well and will react more to bad form or release problems.  I also believe a very light error will exxagerate form or release issues more so then a heavier arrow.


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## DaddyPaul (Aug 3, 2012)

With 175 up front there is a definite wobble but my groups seem tighter than when I have 100 up front and the flight is straighter.  Heavier tips must stabilize better and be more forgiving of bad shots/form.


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## DaddyPaul (Aug 3, 2012)

Hmmmmmm....

Been using a cheap little tab that I think came with a kids bow.  Super soft, wrinkly leather.  Switched over to a homemade one that gblrklr gave me a while back.  Leather is stiffer and slicker.  Arrow flight improved dramatically with the 175 grain tips.  I also raised my nock height two turns on the serving and worked on equal finger pressure and even easing off the pressure with my ring finger.

Not sure what had the biggest effect but they are flying well fletched now, not great bareshaft but I can live with it "as is" for now.  

Need a quiver and some sharp pointy things and I'm going to be set....maybe.  

Thanks for the help and putting up with me.


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## markland (Aug 7, 2012)

DaddyPaul said:


> With 175 up front there is a definite wobble but my groups seem tighter than when I have 100 up front and the flight is straighter.  Heavier tips must stabilize better and be more forgiving of bad shots/form.



True dat!
Good luck and sounds like a cleaner release "cleaned up" your arrow flight as well, but a well tuned shaft will reduce many errors and be more forgiving!


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## DaddyPaul (Aug 7, 2012)

When I stay out of the way Mark I'm actually shooting pretty dang well.  I do wish my arrows were a bit heavier but I'm up to about 470 grains and think these will serve me well this season.  I'll experiment more after I kill some deer with it.


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## markland (Aug 7, 2012)

Sounds good and nothing like experience to show you the true results and what you can expect.  I doubt you will have any problem and with a broadside shot behind the shoulder that should definitely equal a dead deer.  Good luck!


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## ChrisSpikes (Aug 7, 2012)

I've killed a pile of stuff shooting 480 grain arrows.


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