# From the mouths of babes



## ambush80 (Sep 11, 2017)

So my 9 year old daughter went with her cousin to Sunday School and came home with a model of Noah's Ark that she had made.  I asked her to tell me the story of Noah's Ark and she pretty much had it down.  I showed her video of Kenn Hamm, President of _Answers in Genesis_, who runs the Creation Museum in KY,  talking about the replica of Noah's Ark that they have constructed:

<script type="text/javascript" src="//video.foxnews.com/v/embed.js?id=5022926674001&w=466&h=263"></script><noscript>Watch the latest video at video.foxnews.com</noscript>

At one point in the video I pointed out dinosaurs.  I had to explain to her that Ken Hamm is a Young Earth Creationist.  I explained to her how Young Earth Creationists calculate the age of the Earth:

https://answersingenesis.org/age-of-the-earth/how-old-is-the-earth/

I explained to her about Christian Apologists and how they try to explain miracles in the Bible using reason and evidence.  She replied: 

"Oh.  When you said Apologist,  I thought they were people that apologized for people who believe in that stuff".


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 11, 2017)

She understands full well that a being with the qualities of God could cause any of the miracle claims to happen without any explanation, but I've taught her to appreciate explanations.


----------



## atlashunter (Sep 15, 2017)

> Ken Ham needs more than $100 million, modern machinery, a huge team of labor, roads, lumber mills, AND tax breaks and never once thinks ‘You know… I don’t think a 500 year old man could pull this off with tools from the Bronze Age…’  – Anthony Blair





I'd like to see them drop that thing in the ocean and see how long it hold together.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 15, 2017)

One privilege of parenting is you get to pass your beliefs, or lack thereof, on to the next generation.    Ambush, I truly appreciate the fact you let that girl go to Sunday school.  Not many Christian parents would operate in the reverse outside sending them to public school.

I have faith in my faith, and am fine with my kids learning "alternative facts."  It will make their faith stronger once they have to reason one worldview against the other.


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 15, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> I'd like to see them drop that thing in the ocean and see how long it hold together.




It would take a miracle.


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 15, 2017)

_Quote:
Ken Ham needs more than $100 million, modern machinery, a huge team of labor, roads, lumber mills, AND tax breaks and never once thinks ‘You know… I don’t think a 500 year old man could pull this off with tools from the Bronze Age…’ – Anthony Blair_

I believe I saw some steel and concrete on Ken Hamm's ark.


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 15, 2017)

JB0704 said:


> One privilege of parenting is you get to pass your beliefs, or lack thereof, on to the next generation.    Ambush, I truly appreciate the fact you let that girl go to Sunday school.  Not many Christian parents would operate in the reverse outside sending them to public school.
> 
> I have faith in my faith, and am fine with my kids learning "alternative facts."  It will make their faith stronger once they have to reason one worldview against the other.



The Christian religion is a large part of Western culture.  She should be aware of what most of the people around her believe.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Sep 15, 2017)

I may be wrong, but I think... and hope that the younger generation will be more acceptable of others having different beliefs. My kids seem to be this way, so I assume it's headed that way. I hope so, I hope the age,  of someone with a belief claiming another belief is wrong, is dying out


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 16, 2017)

1gr8bldr said:


> I may be wrong, but I think... and hope that the younger generation will be more acceptable of others having different beliefs. My kids seem to be this way, so I assume it's headed that way. I hope so, I hope the age,  of someone with a belief claiming another belief is wrong, is dying out



If someone believes something that isn't true it could sometimes have bad consequences.  Usually only if they act on their wrong belief.


----------



## stringmusic (Sep 16, 2017)

1gr8bldr said:


> I hope so, I hope the age,  of someone with a belief claiming another belief is wrong, is dying out


Truth is exclusive, that's why that happens.

If a person claims "God isn't real", they are claiming that to be truth in which case everyone who believed in God would be wrong.


----------



## Mexican Squealer (Sep 16, 2017)

Sad


----------



## bullethead (Sep 16, 2017)

Mexican Squealer said:


> Sad



Cheer up and use the quote feature.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 16, 2017)

stringmusic said:


> Truth is exclusive, that's why that happens.
> 
> If a person claims "God isn't real", they are claiming that to be truth in which case everyone who believed in God would be wrong.



Is it one sided?


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 17, 2017)

Mexican Squealer said:


> Sad


What is sad is that religion, in this case Christianity, doesn't allow you to believe and be honest at the same time.
"I don't know for a fact if the Christian God exists".
True and honest.
"I don't know for a fact if "their" God exists or not"
True and honest.
"But I believe in my God with all my heart"
True and honest.

Doesn't seem all that difficult.


----------



## stringmusic (Sep 17, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Is it one sided?



No, anybody who makes a truth claim about anything is claiming exclusivity.


----------



## Josey (Sep 17, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> What is sad is that religion, in this case Christianity, doesn't allow you to believe and be honest at the same time.
> "I don't know for a fact if the Christian God exists".
> True and honest.
> "I don't know for a fact if "their" God exists or not"
> ...



Exactly.

And "believing" is not the same as "knowing".  "Knowing" implies that something is absolutely true.  Many people, especially religious ones, confuse the two words.  I have much more respect for a person that does not confuse the two words, and uses them correctly.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 17, 2017)

JB0704 said:


> One privilege of parenting is you get to pass your beliefs, or lack thereof, on to the next generation.    Ambush, I truly appreciate the fact you let that girl go to Sunday school.  Not many Christian parents would operate in the reverse outside sending them to public school.
> 
> I have faith in my faith, and am fine with my kids learning "alternative facts."  It will make their faith stronger once they have to reason one worldview against the other.





> I have faith in my faith, and am fine with my kids learning "alternative facts."


To me, this ^ shows a, (and I'm not sure what the appropriate words is) "real" or "strong" or "full" belief.
This -


> Not many Christian parents would operate in the reverse outside sending them to public school.


Doesn't.
In my opinion, it shows a fear or a lack of confidence in their beliefs and/or their children.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 17, 2017)

Josey said:


> Exactly.
> 
> And "believing" is not the same as "knowing".  "Knowing" implies that something is absolutely true.  Many people, especially religious ones, confuse the two words.  I have much more respect for a person that does not confuse the two words, and uses them correctly.


And I actually have some sympathy or maybe understanding is a better word, for the Christian here. Christianity has stuck them between a rock and a hard place. Even if they 100% are committed to/believe in the Christian God, Christianity says that's not good enough. You are also required to reject that which you cant even prove to be false or you don't believe "good enough".
And of course, the big question is why? Why is it like that?
For me, the answer to that question is reason # 1,217 why I had to walk away from it all.


----------



## welderguy (Sep 17, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> And I actually have some sympathy or maybe understanding is a better word, for the Christian here. Christianity has stuck them between a rock and a hard place. Even if they 100% are committed to/believe in the Christian God, Christianity says that's not good enough. You are also required to reject that which you cant even prove to be false or you don't believe "good enough".
> And of course, the big question is why? Why is it like that?
> For me, the answer to that question is reason # 1,217 why I had to walk away from it all.



Question for Walt and Josey:

Which would you have more respect for? :

A jealous husband that protects his wife from the harmful advances of strange men....
...or a nonjealous husband that lets strange men have their way with her?


----------



## Josey (Sep 17, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Question for Walt and Josey:
> 
> Which would you have more respect for? :
> 
> ...



That seems like a silly question to me.  I'm trying to (edited:  figure) out your motive for asking it, and how it relates to the topic at hand about the difference between believing and knowing something.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 17, 2017)

Josey said:


> That seems like a silly question to me.  I'm trying to out your motive for asking it, and how it relates to the topic at hand about the difference between believing and knowing something.



Welder tries to use real scenarios to explain fantasy in the hopes that somebody falls for it.
It is a mental victory for him to make a point using that real scenario because in his mind he really thinks he has just explained the make believe clearly.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 17, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Question for Walt and Josey:
> 
> Which would you have more respect for? :
> 
> ...


Now, relate that to the topic at hand.


----------



## Josey (Sep 17, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Welder tries to use real scenarios to explain fantasy in the hopes that somebody falls for it.
> It is a mental victory for him to make a point using that real scenario because in his mind he really thinks he has just explained the make believe clearly.



Yep - it seemed like a trick question to me.

No, I don't still beat my wife.  And I never have, either.


----------



## welderguy (Sep 17, 2017)

Josey said:


> That seems like a silly question to me.  I'm trying to (edited:  figure) out your motive for asking it, and how it relates to the topic at hand about the difference between believing and knowing something.



I can only assume (since you didn't answer my question) that you would have more respect for the jealous husband that demanded exclusiveness from his wife from other men.
I pointed that out to show you how my God is the same way. Walt said he had to walk away from "Christianity" because of the exclusiveness of God toward His bride. And how the Christians claimed their God was the only true God and all others are false.

My point in all this is my God "knows" me and has revealed to me(caused me to believe) that I'm "known", and because of this, He's jealous for me in the keeping of me.

So, why is that not worthy of the same respect as the jealous protective husband in the analogy?


----------



## bullethead (Sep 17, 2017)

welderguy said:


> I can only assume (since you didn't answer my question) that you would have more respect for the jealous husband that demanded exclusiveness from his wife from other men.
> I pointed that out to show you how my God is the same way. Walt said he had to walk away from "Christianity" because of the exclusiveness of God toward His bride. And how the Christians claimed their God was the only true God and all others are false.
> 
> My point in all this is my God "knows" me and has revealed to me(caused me to believe) that I'm "known", and because of this, He's jealous for me in the keeping of me.
> ...


Since you want to be the bride....
All we see is that you go around showing everyone your wedding ring but your husband has been away on the longest "business trip" ever.
Nobody has been to the wedding. Never was a reception. Just you on a whirlwind honeymoon at a resort that you booked all for yourself sitting at the bar shooing away guys that are just trying to get to the bartender for a refill and not interested in you at all. They sqeeze in the bar unintentionally next to you and ask the bartender for another beer and you, sitting there alone, reply No thank you...my husband is very jealous. The guy leaves shaking his head and you are convinced you just turned down a date. 
There is nobody jealous because there is nobody to be jealous for.

Pretty telling that you say your all knowing god is jealous. It means he does not know all.


----------



## Josey (Sep 17, 2017)

welderguy said:


> I can only assume (since you didn't answer my question) that you would have more respect for the jealous husband that demanded exclusiveness from his wife from other men.
> I pointed that out to show you how my God is the same way. Walt said he had to walk away from "Christianity" because of the exclusiveness of God toward His bride. And how the Christians claimed their God was the only true God and all others are false.
> 
> My point in all this is my God "knows" me and has revealed to me(caused me to believe) that I'm "known", and because of this, He's jealous for me in the keeping of me.
> ...



If you will notice, I stated that I didn't answer your question because it seemed silly and to be a trick question.  I wanted to know your motive for asking it.  And what you just stated doesn't make any sense at all to me.

Do you use linear or circular logic when you think?  Circular logic does not compute with me, or most people who are capable of thinking for themselves.

And when "God revealed that to you", did you see something with your eyes, hear something with your ears, or at the very least hear a voice in your mind?  Do you not think it is possible that this "revelation" was in your imagination, because you...wanted to see it?


----------



## welderguy (Sep 17, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Since you want to be the bride....
> All we see is that you go around showing everyone your wedding ring but your husband has been away on the longest "business trip" ever.
> Nobody has been to the wedding. Never was a reception. Just you on a whirlwind honeymoon at a resort that you booked all for yourself sitting at the bar shooing away guys that are just trying to get to the bartender for a refill and not interested in you at all. They sqeeze in the bar unintentionally next to you and ask the bartender for another beer and you, sitting there alone, reply No thank you...my husband is very jealous. The guy leaves shaking his head and you are convinced you just turned down a date.
> There is nobody jealous because there is nobody to be jealous for.
> ...



Your analogy doesn't mesh with mine. In my analogy the "guys at the resort" would be  other gods/beliefs, not people(and certainly not athiests).
That's what He's jealous over, not some piddly atheist.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 17, 2017)

welderguy said:


> I can only assume (since you didn't answer my question) that you would have more respect for the jealous husband that demanded exclusiveness from his wife from other men.
> I pointed that out to show you how my God is the same way. Walt said he had to walk away from "Christianity" because of the exclusiveness of God toward His bride. And how the Christians claimed their God was the only true God and all others are false.
> 
> My point in all this is my God "knows" me and has revealed to me(caused me to believe) that I'm "known", and because of this, He's jealous for me in the keeping of me.
> ...


I'm not going to address your question either because if you read my post that you responded to, the subject was not about your God or his requirements. 
It was about Christianity.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 17, 2017)

Josey said:


> If you will notice, I stated that I didn't answer your question because it seemed silly and to be a trick question.  I wanted to know your motive for asking it.  And what you just stated doesn't make any sense at all to me.
> 
> Do you use linear or circular logic when you think?  Circular logic does not compute with me, or most people who are capable of thinking for themselves.
> 
> And when "God revealed that to you", did you see something with your eyes, hear something with your ears, or at the very least hear a voice in your mind?  Do you not think it is possible that this "revelation" was in your imagination, because you...wanted to see it?


He heard or heard about some other believer make the claim so he included/promoted himself to the position so he can tell others that he is equally special.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 17, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Your analogy doesn't mesh with mine. In my analogy the "guys at the resort" would be  other gods/beliefs, not people(and certainly not athiests).
> That's what He's jealous over, not some piddly atheist.



Fake bride, fake other gods, fake husband.
Again you say your god is jealous that you may look at another.....he should know what you will and will not do if he is a god.
Time to file for divorce, you can do better.


----------



## welderguy (Sep 17, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Fake bride, fake other gods, fake husband.
> Again you say your god is jealous that you may look at another.....he should know what you will and will not do if he is a god.
> Time to file for divorce, you can do better.



You're missing it.
Because He's a jealous God, He does not allow His bride to be unfaithful(not ultimately).
Yes, the physical bride did just that in the OT, but I am talking strictly spiritual bride here.

He presents to Himself a bride without spot or wrinkle.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 17, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Fake bride, fake other gods, fake husband.
> Again you say your god is jealous that you may look at another.....he should know what you will and will not do if he is a god.
> Time to file for divorce, you can do better.


Nor does he realize that he just painted a picture of Christians being as a defenseless little bride who is incapable of just saying NO to unwanted advances.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 17, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Nor does he realize that he just painted a picture of Christians being as a defenseless little bride who is incapable of just saying NO to unwanted advances.



Battered wife syndrome.
Sticking up for the abuser


----------



## bullethead (Sep 17, 2017)

welderguy said:


> You're missing it.
> Because He's a jealous God, He does not allow His bride to be unfaithful(not ultimately).
> Yes, the physical bride did just that in the OT, but I am talking strictly spiritual bride here.
> 
> He presents to Himself a bride without spot or wrinkle.


You are missing that an all knowing god would not and could not be jealous.

Yes, we know,  you only deal in the make believe.


----------



## welderguy (Sep 17, 2017)

bullethead said:


> You are missing that an all knowing god would not and could not be jealous.
> 
> Yes, we know,  you only deal in the make believe.



His all knowing attribute does not nullify His jealous attribute.
It only enhances it.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 17, 2017)

welderguy said:


> His all knowing attribute does not nullify His jealous attribute.
> It only enhances it.



Human qualities.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 17, 2017)

welderguy said:


> You're missing it.
> Because He's a jealous God, He does not allow His bride to be unfaithful(not ultimately).
> Yes, the physical bride did just that in the OT, but I am talking strictly spiritual bride here.
> 
> He presents to Himself a bride without spot or wrinkle.


Welder, think, if only for a minute, about what you are saying.


> He does not allow His bride to be unfaithful(not ultimately).


Is THAT how a marriage works??
You don't ALLOW a wife to be unfaithful?
I don't know about you but if I thought my wife would be a "ho" if I allowed it, I wouldn't have married her to begin with.
Do you realize what it says you think about your wife if you dragged your welding tanks around 24/7 so you could keep an eye on her?


----------



## Josey (Sep 17, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Human qualities.



Yes.  What do they say. "God was created in man's image"?


----------



## bullethead (Sep 17, 2017)

Josey said:


> Yes.  What do they say. "God was created in man's image"?



Precisely. All these god books are filled with gods that are the epitome of human qualities.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 17, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Welder, think, if only for a minute, about what you are saying.
> 
> Is THAT how a marriage works??
> You don't ALLOW a wife to be unfaithful?
> ...



He won't allow himself to think that far on his own and when shown he makes excuses as to why it is wrong on every level BUT when his god does it.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Sep 17, 2017)

Josey said:


> Exactly.
> 
> And "believing" is not the same as "knowing".  "Knowing" implies that something is absolutely true.  Many people, especially religious ones, confuse the two words.  I have much more respect for a person that does not confuse the two words, and uses them correctly.


I'm Christian, LOL, my version of it,  yet Christians especially seem to confuse the two words. LOL, I "believe", yet I "know" it's not proven. And it never will be. Those who keep trying to prove God, give it up. "Faith" is no longer faith if it were proven.


----------



## Josey (Sep 17, 2017)

1gr8bldr said:


> I'm Christian, LOL, my version of it,  yet Christians especially seem to confuse the two words. LOL, I "believe", yet I "know" it's not proven. And it never will be. Those who keep trying to prove God, give it up. "Faith" is no longer faith if it were proven.



Yes.  And without the component of faith, circular logic is not a complete circle.  

It's almost as if that is by design.  By humans, I believe.  And I believe the true purpose of every single religion has always be for humans to control other humans.  It is inherent for people to want to do that.

Notice how often I say believe?  I do know that I don't know much of anything.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 17, 2017)

Josey said:


> Yes.  And without the component of faith, circular logic is not a complete circle.
> 
> It's almost as if that is by design.  By humans, I believe.  And I believe the true purpose of every single religion has always be for humans to control other humans.  It is inherent for people to want to do that.
> 
> Notice how often I say believe?  I do know that I don't know much of anything.


You, like many others, tend to go with the preponderance of available evidence.


----------



## welderguy (Sep 17, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Welder, think, if only for a minute, about what you are saying.
> 
> Is THAT how a marriage works??
> You don't ALLOW a wife to be unfaithful?
> ...



There are no perfect human marriages. Your wife (and even yourself) has been a "ho" with her eyes since before you married her.(no offense)
That's because we are all imperfect sinners.
But the marriage I'm concerned with is spiritual, between a perfect Groom and an imperfect bride that's in the process of being made perfect(sanctified).

So, the human marriages don't suffice to be compared to the spiritual marriage of Christ and His bride.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 17, 2017)

welderguy said:


> There are no perfect human marriages. Your wife (and even yourself) has been a "ho" with her eyes since before you married her.(no offense)
> That's because we are all imperfect sinners.
> But the marriage I'm concerned with is spiritual, between a perfect Groom and an imperfect bride that's in the process of being made perfect(sanctified).
> 
> So, the human marriages don't suffice to be compared to the spiritual marriage of Christ and His bride.


----------



## drippin' rock (Sep 17, 2017)

welderguy said:


> There are no perfect human marriages. Your wife (and even yourself) has been a "ho" with her eyes since before you married her.(no offense)
> That's because we are all imperfect sinners.
> But the marriage I'm concerned with is spiritual, between a perfect Groom and an imperfect bride that's in the process of being made perfect(sanctified).
> 
> So, the human marriages don't suffice to be compared to the spiritual marriage of Christ and His bride.




Oh, the 'I'm not worthy' dribble.  Queu Israel.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 17, 2017)

welderguy said:


> There are no perfect human marriages. Your wife (and even yourself) has been a "ho" with her eyes since before you married her.(no offense)
> That's because we are all imperfect sinners.
> But the marriage I'm concerned with is spiritual, between a perfect Groom and an imperfect bride that's in the process of being made perfect(sanctified).
> 
> So, the human marriages don't suffice to be compared to the spiritual marriage of Christ and His bride.





> But the marriage I'm concerned with is spiritual, between a perfect Groom and an imperfect bride that's in the process of being made perfect(sanctified).


What are you concerned about?
You just told us God has got it covered -


> He presents to Himself a bride without spot or wrinkle.



You've got to work with us here Welder.
You've got lots of conflicting ideas/thoughts/beliefs which is fine for you (we probably all do about something), but it makes it really tough on us to intelligently converse with you on this subject.
By the way, I don't find this offensive -


> Your wife (and even yourself) has been a "ho" with her eyes since before you married her.(no offense)


I find it sad that you can't believe in your God without also believing this about yourself, your wife, your children and all other people too.


----------



## welderguy (Sep 18, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> What are you concerned about?
> You just told us God has got it covered -
> 
> 
> ...



concerned-- as in, most interested in.

And, if you never realize your disease, you will never realize your need of the physician.
He causes both, and also the cure. When you see the cure, all sadness goes away.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 18, 2017)

welderguy said:


> concerned-- as in, most interested in.
> 
> And, if you never realize your disease, you will never realize your need of the physician.
> He causes both, and also the cure. When you see the cure, all sadness goes away.


I'm sure that to you, all that sounded like it was really something.


----------



## Israel (Sep 18, 2017)

drippin' rock said:


> Oh, the 'I'm not worthy' dribble.  Queu Israel.



It's a small confession, really. Swallowed.


 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 18, 2017)

welderguy said:


> concerned-- as in, most interested in.
> 
> And, if you never realize your disease, you will never realize your need of the physician.
> He causes both, and also the cure. When you see the cure, all sadness goes away.


So Welder, just for my own peace of mind that I'm not dismissing this prematurely as dribble, I want to make sure I understand your point here -


> And, if you never realize your disease, you will never realize your need of the physician.
> He causes both, and also the cure. When you see the cure, all sadness goes away


1. God gives me/us this "disease".
2. God provides me/us the cure for this "disease" that he gave us.
3. I'm supposed to appreciate/worship God because he gave me/us the cure for the disease that he gave me/us.

Have I got that right?


----------



## welderguy (Sep 18, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> So Welder, just for my own peace of mind that I'm not dismissing this prematurely as dribble, I want to make sure I understand your point here -
> 
> 1. God gives me/us this "disease".
> 2. God provides me/us the cure for this "disease" that he gave us.
> ...



In the context of what I was saying, I meant God causes us to realize both our disease and the need of the physician...

...but, the way you put it is also correct. 

God is ultimate cause of everything.
"In the beginning, God..."
There was nothing else. Everything additional was ultimately created and caused by Him.


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 18, 2017)

welderguy said:


> In the context of what I was saying, I meant God causes us to realize both our disease and the need of the physician...
> 
> ...but, the way you put it is also correct.
> 
> ...


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 18, 2017)

welderguy said:


> In the context of what I was saying, I meant God causes us to realize both our disease and the need of the physician...
> 
> ...but, the way you put it is also correct.
> 
> ...


Thanks. Like I said, was just making sure I understood correctly.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 18, 2017)

"It's God's fault"
The ultimate excuse


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 18, 2017)

bullethead said:


> "It's God's fault"
> The ultimate excuse



Some church planters moved in next door and we've become friends.  They believe in predestination.  I was actually going to go to one of their Bible studies yesterday because they were discussing Ephesians 1 which says alot about predestination but I got busy.  Part of what they wanted to talk about was how the lessons of Ephesians 1 shapes how they as Christians move through the world and interact with others.  

If I believed that I was chosen by God to go to Heaven and I knew that others were chosen for He11, how would that make me feel?  Grateful for myself and piteous for the danged?  I wanted to ask them if they have REALLY absorbed what those things mean.  

I'm beginning to think that they don't actually understand the ramifications of their beliefs.


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 18, 2017)

I wanted to ask the planters "does believing in Jesus make you a better person?"

So does it?

I guess a better question is "Does trying to be like Jesus make you a better person?"

I know that the point in believing isn't to make you a better person but to insure your place in Heaven, but does it also have the added benefit of making you a better person?


----------



## atlashunter (Sep 18, 2017)

Never trust a man who desires to be a bride.


----------



## welderguy (Sep 18, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> I wanted to ask the planters "does believing in Jesus make you a better person?"
> 
> So does it?
> 
> ...



Nothing we can do makes us a better person. We all need grace for that. Grace is unmerited and it is a gift.

And we don't believe to insure a place in heaven. That was done before the world was created. Our names were written in God's book. The ability to believe came much later.


----------



## welderguy (Sep 18, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> Some church planters moved in next door and we've become friends.  They believe in predestination.  I was actually going to go to one of their Bible studies yesterday because they were discussing Ephesians 1 which says alot about predestination but I got busy.  Part of what they wanted to talk about was how the lessons of Ephesians 1 shapes how they as Christians move through the world and interact with others.
> 
> If I believed that I was chosen by God to go to Heaven and I knew that others were chosen for He11, how would that make me feel?  Grateful for myself and piteous for the danged?  I wanted to ask them if they have REALLY absorbed what those things mean.
> 
> I'm beginning to think that they don't actually understand the ramifications of their beliefs.



Can you elaborate more on these ramifications you speak of?

How would someone know who to have pity on?


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 19, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Nothing we can do makes us a better person.



As a person who , like you, believes that ultimately we have no agency I agree with you.



welderguy said:


> We all need grace for that. Grace is unmerited and it is a gift.



I can't agree with this because it comes from a position with no logical basis.



welderguy said:


> And we don't believe to insure a place in heaven. That was done before the world was created. Our names were written in God's book. The ability to believe came much later.



If it said that believers would go to He11 as the ultimate Christ Like sacrifice it would be a "No Sale".  You believe that Vessels of Wrath are meant to do just that for God's glory.


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 19, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Can you elaborate more on these ramifications you speak of?



For one, if you believed that God told you to do something would you do it, even if it didn't make sense?  Could anyone talk you out of it?  

You don't even know me but just imagine I'm a Vessel of Wrath.  Imagine me burning in He11 for all eternity. Even if it's my own fault.  Even if it's for God's glory.  The fact that you can live with that without it plunging you into debilitating grief has demonstrated that your belief has broken something inside of you.



welderguy said:


> How would someone know who to have pity on?



I pity those who suffer.


----------



## welderguy (Sep 19, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> 1)As a person who , like you, believes that ultimately we have no agency I agree with you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1)

2) Yes, it requires faith.

3) There is no "sale" either way. That's because man has no choice in his eternal destiny. That was God's choice alone. When you esteem God's glory more than man's, it is not hard to swallow this truth.


----------



## welderguy (Sep 19, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> 1)For one, if you believed that God told you to do something would you do it, even if it didn't make sense?  Could anyone talk you out of it?
> 
> 2)You don't even know me but just imagine I'm a Vessel of Wrath.  Imagine me burning in He11 for all eternity. Even if it's my own fault.  Even if it's for God's glory.  The fact that you can live with that without it plunging you into debilitating grief has demonstrated that your belief has broken something inside of you.
> 
> 3)I pity those who suffer.



1) I would try my best, with His help. They may talk me out of it. I've failed God's tests many times.

2)As I said earlier, I esteem God's glory more than man's.

3)I do as well, but I don't know who are vessels of wrath. No one does. I just pity all sinners.


----------



## swampstalker24 (Sep 19, 2017)

welderguy said:


> concerned-- as in, most interested in.
> 
> And, if you never realize your disease, you will never realize your need of the physician.
> He causes both, and also the cure. When you see the cure, all sadness goes away.



From this description your god sounds more like an Italian mobster running a protection racket...


He created us with a "pre existing" condition that condems us to h3ll...

Then he offers a "cure" to this "pre existing condition".... For a small fee of course 

Why would a benevolent god do such a thing? Or he not capable of creating a disease free people, unneeding of his cure?

Shouldn't his greatness alone be enough to garner our worship without the threat of eternal suffering?


----------



## centerpin fan (Sep 19, 2017)

swampstalker24 said:


> From this description your god sounds more like an Italian mobster running a protection racket...



You catch on quick.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 19, 2017)

swampstalker24 said:


> From this description your god sounds more like an Italian mobster running a protection racket...
> 
> 
> He created us with a "pre existing" condition that condems us to h3ll...
> ...


Its not even going to be a speed bump for him. I laid out the exact same point in the simplest terms possible and you see what the response was.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 19, 2017)

centerpin fan said:


> You catch on quick.


If you think that is some sort of positive endorsement of your God you are sadly mistaken. I know for a fact what the average Italian person thought and said about mobsters behind closed doors.


----------



## centerpin fan (Sep 19, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> If you think that is some sort of positive endorsement of your God ...



I do not.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 19, 2017)

centerpin fan said:


> I do not.


I'm glad to hear that.
Yet you worship your God even though you admit the comparison.
Then fear has to be the motivating factor doesn't it?
Or maybe what you believe you will get out of the deal for going along with the program?


----------



## welderguy (Sep 19, 2017)

swampstalker24 said:


> From this description your god sounds more like an Italian mobster running a protection racket...
> 
> 
> He created us with a "pre existing" condition that condems us to h3ll...
> ...



Nope. There's no "fee". Not even a small one. Grace is free for God's people.
Find me one Italian mobster that gave any benevolence to his subjects through grace.


----------



## atlashunter (Sep 19, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Nope. There's no "fee". Not even a small one. Grace is free for God's people.
> Find me one Italian mobster that gave any benevolence to his subjects through grace.



You must be reading a different bible from everyone else.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 19, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> You must be reading a different bible from everyone else.


I think you have to consider Welder's "I am special" beliefs. This is the key sentence -


> Grace is free for God's people


Remember that according to him "God's people" are NOT all people or even all Christians.
Just the special pre-chosen ones are and they got it for "free" before they even existed.
That's my guess anyway.


----------



## welderguy (Sep 19, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> You must be reading a different bible from everyone else.





Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


----------



## welderguy (Sep 19, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Remember that according to him "God's people" are NOT all people or even all Christians.




Romans 9:6-8
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 19, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Romans 9:6-8
> 6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:


I'm not even going to attempt to guess what that scripture means to you.
If you want to participate in intelligent discussion it goes something like this -
Me -


> Remember that according to him "God's people" are NOT all people or even all Christians.


You -
Yes that is correct.
Or -
No that is incorrect. Heres why ......

Give it a shot, it wont hurt.    Much.


----------



## welderguy (Sep 19, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> I'm not even going to attempt to guess what that scripture means to you.
> If you want to participate in intelligent discussion it goes something like this -
> Me -
> 
> ...



Don't play dumb Walt.

...wait, you are just playing right? 

hint: one of the Israels is physical and one of the Israels is spiritual.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 19, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Don't play dumb Walt.
> 
> ...wait, you are just playing right?


Yes I'm dumb. That's why I'm not going to attempt to guess what that scripture means to you. You posted it to make your point. Because I'm dumb I don't know what your point is unless you tell me what it means to you.
That format would look like this -
Yes that is correct. This piece of scripture, which I believe means this ______ is why I believe that.
Or -
No that is incorrect. This piece, of scripture, which I believe means this ______ is why I don't believe that.
And of course the 3rd option is that you aren't interested in intelligent discussion and in that case I would request you just not say anything.
I know its much easier to just regurgitate scripture but if you'll follow that format, even someone as dumb as me will be able to get it.


----------



## welderguy (Sep 19, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Yes I'm dumb. That's why I'm not going to attempt to guess what that scripture means to you. You posted it to make your point. Because I'm dumb I don't know what your point is unless you tell me what it means to you.
> That format would look like this -
> Yes that is correct. This piece of scripture, which I believe means this ______ is why I believe that.
> Or -
> ...



Just for the record, I don't consider you dumb at all. I was only kidding about that. You are a much deeper thinker than I am.

I was basically agreeing with you about not all "Christians" being God's people.  I believe the text I referenced supports this.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 19, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Just for the record, I don't consider you dumb at all. I was only kidding about that. You are a much deeper thinker than I am.
> 
> I was basically agreeing with you about not all "Christians" being God's people.  I believe the text I referenced supports this.


Nor do I think you are dumb. That's why I am trying to force you into intelligent discussion. Because I know you are not dumb, I know you are aware that if there is one indisputable fact about Christianity, that no AA will ever be able to prove wrong....... is that a piece of scripture can mean very different things to a lot of different Christians.
So it WOULD be dumb of me to just guess what I think it might mean to you. If I guess wrong, then I get the point you are making wrong, then I will respond wrong... then the whole conversation goes down the toilet.
I learn nothing. You learn nothing. I get the wrong impression of what you think. You get the wrong impression of what I think. That pollutes any future conversations......... and the snowball just keeps getting bigger.

I honestly didn't know what your point was because I didn't know what that scripture meant to you, I don't even know for sure what it means to me.
And all it took to avoid all that was this -


> I was basically agreeing with you about not all "Christians" being God's people.  I believe the text I referenced supports this.


----------



## welderguy (Sep 19, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Nor do I think you are dumb. That's why I am trying to force you into intelligent discussion. Because I know you are not dumb, I know you are aware that if there is one indisputable fact about Christianity, that no AA will ever be able to prove wrong....... is that a piece of scripture can mean very different things to a lot of different Christians.
> So it WOULD be dumb of me to just guess what I think it might mean to you. If I guess wrong, then I get the point you are making wrong, then I will respond wrong... then the whole conversation goes down the toilet.
> I learn nothing. You learn nothing. I get the wrong impression of what you think. You get the wrong impression of what I think. That pollutes any future conversations......... and the snowball just keeps getting bigger.
> 
> ...



Point taken and accepted. Thanks.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 19, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Point taken and accepted. Thanks.


And thank you.
For better or worse, we are both "regulars" here. Understanding each other, whether we agree on things or not, is important to me.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 20, 2017)

Welder, I think we killed the thread.
Sorry Gentlemen.


----------

