# Concept of time and distance, how big is our universe?



## bullethead (Jul 25, 2011)

Lets get some figures on how big our solar system is, how big our galaxy and universe is and how far/how long we would have to travel to get to known places both inside and outside of our galaxy.
Can we comprehend just how long it would take to reach these places? Has anyone ever thought about it?

The two fastest spacecraft we have ever built called the Twin Helios Probes were launched to orbit the sun. The fastest of the two probes is Helios II and is traveling at 150,000 mph.

Lets use the fastest probe for reference assuming it was possible for the spacecraft to keep that speed indefinitely without the need of gravitational pull or fuel.

The distance to our Sun is 93 million miles. 93,000,000 miles! Going 150,000mph it would take about 620 hours or 25.8 days non-stop to reach our Sun. 

The next closest star is 4.22 light years away from Earth. One Light Year is the distance light can travel in one year. Light travels at a speed of 186,000 miles per SECOND! It travels almost 6 Trillion miles in one years time. One Trillion equals a million millions! 6,000,000,000,000 miles in one year and it takes 4.22 light years( or 25,320,000,000,000 miles) to get to that star. Back that speed down to our fastest spacecraft going 150,000mph and it will take 4,473 years to travel ONE light year!!! To get to that CLOSEST star in the sky it would take approximately 18,876 YEARS!!

It would take @ 87,000 years to travel 20 light years going 150,000mph!

Just our Milky Way Galaxy is 100,000 LIGHT YEARS in diameter and 1,000 Light Years thick.!

Our next closest galaxy..Andromeda Galaxy, is 2.9 Million Light Years away from us! If you look up into the sky on a cloudless night and see the Andromeda Galaxy, the light that is hitting your eyes has taken 2.9 million years to reach your eyes!! That is 17,400,000,000,000,000,000 miles. At 150,000 miles an hour it would take 13,242,009,132.4 years to get there. That is 13.2 Billion years to fly there going 150,000mph.

Who can wrap their minds around figures like those on just travel time to get to these places, let alone figure out how long they have been there or how they formed?? I can see why it is much easier to pass it off as it all being created by an invisible being. it doesn't warp the brain as much to keep it that simple.

PLEASE check my math, please search the net for the distances and times that I have found. I am half dizzy from thinking about it.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 25, 2011)

Dizzy is an understatement. It hurts.


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## atlashunter (Jul 25, 2011)

Now let's equate that concept of distance with time. Let's walk across the Milky Way. Take one step each year. And when you've finally reached the other side you'll be no closer to your final destination. Consider that scale of time in either heaven or he11 and if you are religious you have to believe that either one or the other is a fitting reward or punishment not for how you live in your short time here but what you will or won't believe without evidence.


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## stringmusic (Jul 25, 2011)

I enjoy reading about things of this nature, it blows my mind to think about it. Thanks for the work Bullet, those are crazy figures!

I am not understanding where your argument is exactly? I think God created all that we can see and all that we can't see in space, I think it shows how big and powerful He is.


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## stringmusic (Jul 25, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Now let's equate that concept of distance with time. Let's walk across the Milky Way. Take one step each year. And when you've finally reached the other side you'll be no closer to your final destination. *Consider that scale of time in either heaven or he11 and if you are religious you have to believe that either one or the other is a fitting reward or punishment not for how you live in your short time here but what you will or won't believe without evidence*.



Not even close.


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## CAL (Jul 25, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I enjoy reading about things of this nature, it blows my mind to think about it. Thanks for the work Bullet, those are crazy figures!
> 
> I am not understanding where your argument is exactly? I think God created all that we can see and all that we can't see in space, I think it shows how big and powerful He is.



I do agree,sorta like my post about looking up and trying to comprehend there is no end.It just goes forever.


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## atlashunter (Jul 25, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Not even close.



In what way? That it isn't a fitting reward or punishment?


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## pbradley (Jul 25, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Lets get some figures on how big our solar system is, how big our galaxy and universe is and how far/how long we would have to travel to get to known places both inside and outside of our galaxy.
> Can we comprehend just how long it would take to reach these places? Has anyone ever thought about it?
> 
> The two fastest spacecraft we have ever built called the Twin Helios Probes were launched to orbit the sun. The fastest of the two probes is Helios II and is traveling at 150,000 mph.
> ...



You haven't even gotten to the hard part, yet. If, in fact, the universe (reality) is still expanding, _what is it expanding into?_


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## bullethead (Jul 25, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I enjoy reading about things of this nature, it blows my mind to think about it. Thanks for the work Bullet, those are crazy figures!
> 
> I am not understanding where your argument is exactly? I think God created all that we can see and all that we can't see in space, I think it shows how big and powerful He is.



There is no argument intended. I posted it to show the magnitude of time and distance. Possibly to open some eyes( mine included) to think about just how long/far/big those numbers are.  Staggering is an understatement. If any point( not argument) I am trying to make is that we cannot grasp the concept of time right here in and on our own planet. Maybe a few of us will live to be 100 years old and it is like a drop of water in the ocean in relation to time spent here compared to how old the earth is. To really look into it and even sort of grasp the numbers is headache inducing. I can see why mankind has conjured up much simpler explanations for it all. Explanations that are neither provable or unprovable and yet while we continue to punch and counter punch back and forth....time just keeps on ticking.


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## stringmusic (Jul 25, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> In what way? That it isn't a fitting reward or punishment?





atlashunter said:


> Now let's equate that concept of distance with time. Let's walk across the Milky Way. Take one step each year. And when you've finally reached the other side you'll be no closer to your final destination. Consider that scale of time in either heaven or he11 and if you are religious you have to believe that either one or the other is a fitting reward or punishment not for how you live in your short time here but what you will or won't believe without evidence.



I see it as a new reality that is either spent with or without God. You seem to want to equate it with getting, or not getting, a candy bar for making an A on a spelling test.

I would also argue your point of " not for how you live your short time here" . It has _everything_ to do with how you live your life here. How you live your life here and the choices you make here are long term choices. Belief without conviction is worthless.

Walk outside and look at this earth, look into space at night, thats all the evidence you need. All the other evidence you call for is just your pride.


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## stringmusic (Jul 25, 2011)

bullethead said:


> There is no argument intended. I posted it to show the magnitude of time and distance. Possibly to open some eyes( mine included) to think about just how long/far/big those numbers are.  Staggering is an understatement. If any point( not argument) I am trying to make is that we cannot grasp the concept of time right here in and on our own planet. Maybe a few of us will live to be 100 years old and it is like a drop of water in the ocean in relation to time spent here compared to how old the earth is. To really look into it and even sort of grasp the numbers is headache inducing. I can see why mankind has conjured up much simpler explanations for it all. Explanations that are neither provable or unprovable and yet while we continue to punch and counter punch back and forth....time just keeps on ticking.



I didn't mean argument in the sense that you wanted to ruffle feathers, maybe I should have used the word discussion.

I am not seeing the correlation between God and mankind conjuring up simpler explanations for things. Mankind uses what it has at any given time to come up with the best explanation for things, simple or complex, neither of which has disproven God, or even came close to doing so.


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## atlashunter (Jul 25, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I see it as a new reality that is either spent with or without God. You seem to want to equate it with getting, or not getting, a candy bar for making an A on a spelling test.



Either way we are still talking about a never ending period of time in either the greatest state of bliss imaginable or the greatest state of misery imaginable right? And what is the determining factor? Whether or not you believe Jesus died for your sins, right?




stringmusic said:


> I would also argue your point of " not for how you live your short time here" . It has _everything_ to do with how you live your life here. How you live your life here and the choices you make here are long term choices. Belief without conviction is worthless.



Ok so your a salvation by works type of Christian. Ok. That's _slightly_ better I suppose. Still talking about infinite reward or punishment for a finite life. But I was referring to those who think it's your faith in Jesus or lack thereof that determines what happens to you.




stringmusic said:


> Walk outside and look at this earth, look into space at night, thats all the evidence you need. All the other evidence you call for is just your pride.



Horse apples! That's all the evidence you need that all of this came from a lab experiment gone wrong in an alien named Ralph's basement. Just walk outside and look around!


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## bullethead (Jul 25, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I see it as a new reality that is either spent with or without God. You seem to want to equate it with getting, or not getting, a candy bar for making an A on a spelling test.
> 
> I would also argue your point of " not for how you live your short time here" . It has _everything_ to do with how you live your life here. How you live your life here and the choices you make here are long term choices. Belief without conviction is worthless.
> 
> Walk outside and look at this earth, look into space at night, thats all the evidence you need. All the other evidence you call for is just your pride.



Are you saying that when you look outside and see earth and space that those are clear examples of God? You can substitute any other God or anything that has ever been worshiped and make the same claim. I can say that all anyone has to do it look outside at the earth and peer into the sky and see all the proof needed to know The Mighty Oak Tree is responsible for it all. There is ZERO proof that either are responsible. It is another example of inserting "God" for all that is good or all that is unknown or all that is not understood.


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## stringmusic (Jul 25, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Either way we are still talking about a never ending period of time in either the greatest state of bliss imaginable or the greatest state of misery imaginable right? And what is the determining factor? Whether or not you believe Jesus died for your sins, right?


Yep. Belief, in which comes conviction, and a relationship with Christ. If that is not what you want, you will gladly be given what you want.



> Ok so your a salvation by works type of Christian.


Wrong again! Conviction of the Holy Spirit breeds all things good, ergo, doing good things. Not what gets you into Heaven, just comes with the territory.


> Ok. That's _slightly_ better I suppose. Still talking about infinite reward or punishment for a finite life. But I was referring to those who think it's your faith in Jesus or lack thereof that *determines what happens to you*.


Actually, you determine what happens to you.



> Horse apples! That's all the evidence you need that all of this came from a lab experiment gone wrong in an alien named Ralph's basement. Just walk outside and look around!



How did I know this would be the response.


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## bullethead (Jul 25, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I didn't mean argument in the sense that you wanted to ruffle feathers, maybe I should have used the word discussion.
> 
> I am not seeing the correlation between God and mankind conjuring up simpler explanations for things. Mankind uses what it has at any given time to come up with the best explanation for things, simple or complex, neither of which has disproven God, or even came close to doing so.



Can you prove or dis-prove the flying spaghetti monster? Can you even come close to dis-proving him?


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## stringmusic (Jul 25, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Are you saying that when you look outside and see earth and space that those are clear examples of God? You can substitute any other God or anything that has ever been worshiped and make the same claim. I can say that all anyone has to do it look outside at the earth and peer into the sky and see all the proof needed to know The Mighty Oak Tree is responsible for it all. There is ZERO proof that either are responsible. It is another example of inserting "God" for all that is good or all that is unknown or all that is not understood.



I guess your right, I choose God as my answer to things unknown. That is what I want to be the truth and that is what I make my truth. You and everyone else has that same choice.


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## stringmusic (Jul 25, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Can you prove or dis-prove the flying spaghetti monster? Can you even come close to dis-proving him?



I have responded to the FSM a million times. Taking God and calling Him the FSM is what it is.

If I call a computer a jigitybox, it's still a computer. Calling God the FSM is the same concept.


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## WTM45 (Jul 25, 2011)

Feeling insignificant is easy and usually the first reaction.  The next step is simply to feel good about being a part of it all!


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## bullethead (Jul 25, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I have responded to the FSM a million times. Taking God and calling Him the FSM is what it is.
> 
> If I call a computer a jigitybox, it's still a computer. Calling God the FSM is the same concept.



Eh, errr, no it is not the same.

Can you disprove a unicorn?
A Leprechaun? 
Can you disprove a 6yr olds imaginary friend?

Can you disprove anything that has never been proven? If it has never existed CAN it be dis-proven?


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## atlashunter (Jul 25, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Yep. Belief, in which comes conviction, and a relationship with Christ. If that is not what you want, you will gladly be given what you want.



What of those who want neither eternal life or eternal ****ation? And by the way if this whole thing was really about what we want wouldn't it make for a more honest decision to let people decide under conditions where the truth of it were laid bare for all to see beyond any doubt? The poor hindu that is destined to burn doesn't really have an honest opportunity to choose does he?




stringmusic said:


> Wrong again! Conviction of the Holy Spirit breeds all things good, ergo, doing good things. Not what gets you into Heaven, just comes with the territory.



Perhaps... I could point out some prominent exceptions to the rule but putting that aside, we finally agree on this point. That it isn't how you live that determines where you go, but what you believe (according to the tenets of christianity).




stringmusic said:


> Actually, you determine what happens to you.



Great! I choose to live on my own terms until I've had enough and then stop living. Does my choice make it reality?




stringmusic said:


> How did I know this would be the response.



Maybe you knew it was nonsense?


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## stringmusic (Jul 25, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Eh, errr, no it is not the same.


It is exactly the same.



> Can you disprove a unicorn?
> A Leprechaun?
> Can you disprove a 6yr olds imaginary friend?
> 
> Can you disprove anything that has never been proven? If it has never existed CAN it be dis-proven?



No, I cannot dis-prove any of your examples.


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## bullethead (Jul 25, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> It is exactly the same.
> 
> 
> 
> No, I cannot dis-prove any of your examples.



Then will you go on record saying that because you cannot dis-prove any of those examples, you believe in them and they are real.

If the FSM and God are the same will you worship the FSM?
Or are you saying the argument is the same?

The FSM is as real as your God if we use your criteria that neither can be dis-proven so both must be true.


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## stringmusic (Jul 25, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> What of those who want neither eternal life or eternal ****ation?


Can't help you there.


> The poor hindu that is destined to burn doesn't really have an honest opportunity to choose does he?


You'll have to ask the Hindu.





> Great! I choose to live on my own terms until I've had enough and then stop living. Does my choice make it reality?


There are a couple qualifiers I probably should have added, I think you know what they are.






> Maybe you knew it was nonsense?



To you it is nonsense Atlas.... to you.


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## atlashunter (Jul 25, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> To you it is nonsense Atlas.... to you.



Well you can call it what you want. It's logically on par with Ralph.


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## ted_BSR (Jul 25, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Can you prove or dis-prove the flying spaghetti monster? Can you even come close to dis-proving him?



Satire, parody: from the indisputable Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster


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## ted_BSR (Jul 25, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Well you can call it what you want. It's logically on par with Ralph.



Logic does not provide the answers you think it does.


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## ted_BSR (Jul 25, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Lets get some figures on how big our solar system is, how big our galaxy and universe is and how far/how long we would have to travel to get to known places both inside and outside of our galaxy.
> Can we comprehend just how long it would take to reach these places? Has anyone ever thought about it?
> 
> The two fastest spacecraft we have ever built called the Twin Helios Probes were launched to orbit the sun. The fastest of the two probes is Helios II and is traveling at 150,000 mph.
> ...



The speed of light in a vacuum is 670,616,629 mph. So the statement in red doesn't compute. Measuring time in light years by units of speed that need a conversion muddies the waters even more.
Regardless, these are some very big numbers. I venture to say that like the passage of time, humans have little comprehension of these figures. Not enough data.


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## ted_BSR (Jul 25, 2011)

bullethead said:


> There is no argument intended. I posted it to show the magnitude of time and distance. Possibly to open some eyes( mine included) to think about just how long/far/big those numbers are.  Staggering is an understatement. If any point( not argument) I am trying to make is that we cannot grasp the concept of time right here in and on our own planet. Maybe a few of us will live to be 100 years old and it is like a drop of water in the ocean in relation to time spent here compared to how old the earth is. To really look into it and even sort of grasp the numbers is headache inducing. I can see why mankind has conjured up much simpler explanations for it all. Explanations that are neither provable or unprovable and yet while we continue to punch and counter punch back and forth....time just keeps on ticking.



Time doesn't tick. Clocks tick. And not even all clocks tick. And all clocks are adjusted to make up for the shortcomings of our comprenhension of time. Time measured on Earth is different than time measured on other planets, and on other planets on other systems.


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## ted_BSR (Jul 25, 2011)

42!


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## bullethead (Jul 25, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> The speed of light in a vacuum is 670,616,629 mph. So the statement in red doesn't compute. Measuring time in light years by units of speed that need a conversion muddies the waters even more.
> Regardless, these are some very big numbers. I venture to say that like the passage of time, humans have little comprehension of these figures. Not enough data.



Are we IN a vacuum? Is our solar system in a vacuum? Is our Galaxy in a vacuum?

Your posted speed works out close to the 180,000 miles per second light travels at. 186,282.3969444444444 MPS to be close.


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## bullethead (Jul 25, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> Time doesn't tick. Clocks tick. And not even all clocks tick. And all clocks are adjusted to make up for the shortcomings of our comprenhension of time. Time measured on Earth is different than time measured on other planets, and on other planets on other systems.



Figure of speech Ted. Steve Miller would be crushed to know he got the whole song wrong.
I love the precision when using science and math and better yet I love the lack of such precision when using religion.
Time as we understand it would be used by us. Unless you know of some intelligent life on other planets that use another system?


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## bullethead (Jul 25, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> The speed of light in a vacuum is 670,616,629 mph. So the statement in red doesn't compute. Measuring time in light years by units of speed that need a conversion muddies the waters even more.
> Regardless, these are some very big numbers. I venture to say that like the passage of time, humans have little comprehension of these figures. Not enough data.



One light year takes 4,473 years at 150,000mph so 89,460 years is the more correct number to travel 20 light years going 150,000mph (20x 4473). I under sold the journey at only 87,000 years to make the trip.


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## bullethead (Jul 25, 2011)

bullethead said:


> One light year takes 4,473 years at 150,000mph so 89,460 years is the more correct number to travel 20 light years going 150,000mph (20x 4473). I under sold the journey at only 87,000 years to make the trip.



But hey, once your 87,000 years into the trip and the captain announces that it will be another 2,460 years till we get there....there is no sense asking him to turn around.


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## WTM45 (Jul 26, 2011)

bullethead said:


> But hey, once your 87,000 years into the trip and the captain announces that it will be another 2,460 years till we get there....there is no sense asking him to turn around.



And, when you get to your destination, what you SAW with the aid of a telescope 89,460 years ago might not exist.  It may have burned up WELL before you arrive, or even before you launched!


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## bullethead (Jul 26, 2011)

WTM45 said:


> And, when you get to your destination, what you SAW with the aid of a telescope 89,460 years ago might not exist.  It may have burned up WELL before you arrive, or even before you launched!



True Dat!


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## BAR308 (Aug 7, 2011)




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## gtparts (Aug 8, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Figure of speech Ted. Steve Miller would be crushed to know he got the whole song wrong.
> I love the precision when using science and math and better yet I love the lack of such precision when using religion.
> Time as we understand it would be used by us. Unless you know of some intelligent life on other planets that use another system?


I can only deduce that you are still referencing "time ticking away" with the SM song comment. For the record, and totally off topic, the verses nor chorus of "* Fly Like An Eagle *" refers to "ticking" or "tickin'". The chorus is the repetition of a single phrase, two lines.

"Time keeps on slippin', slippin', slippin'
Into the future"

The obvious implication is that we have taken the difficult-to-grasp reality of analog (continuous and uninterrupted) time and tried to measure and "confine" it, perhaps with the ultimate desire to understand and control it. We attempt to "corral" time by artificially creating measurable units of uniform and repeatable size or dimension (digitizing it, if you will). How laughable! We are no closer to really understanding time than when we counted days or seasons or measured shadows of sticks that we placed in the ground.

 The problem is much like grasping the reality of God. A pursuit of the spiritual by scientific means can only lead to ultimate frustration. As I have said before, science is the wrong tool for the task of proving or disproving the existence of God. The order we find within science and math are not of our creation. It is only by experimentation and observation that we come to recognize the rigid, uncompromising rules and regulations that give order to the systems we use to describe ourselves and our surroundings. 
Really? Natural order? Out of chaos???

But, no, some choose to ignore the quiet, obvious because it makes them uncomfortable.

It makes them uncomfortable to consider that a supreme being overshadows all we are or could ever achieve. 

It makes them uncomfortable to consider that there could be a measure of accountability for their thoughts and actions.

It makes them uncomfortable to consider that they have a unique purpose and they have utterly failed to recognize or attempt to rise to it.

Some of us have grasped just enough to "see" the goal that has been set for us and press in that direction. That slight glimpse is called, "Faith", the only tool by which we can fully apprehend and comprehend spiritual reality.

The rest are usually quite content to "do their own thing", captains of their own destinies.


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## JB0704 (Aug 8, 2011)

gtparts said:


> The rest are usually quite content to "do their own thing", captains of their own destinies.



Invictus?

On topic, I watched Stephen Hawking's Discovery Channel show about the universe last night, and it was fascinating.  This thread came to mind.  What I got out of it was how incredibly short a human life actually is when taken in context of the universe.  I guess believing in God gives me _hope_ that what I do during that brief window is not completely insignificant.  Call it what you will, but that hope gives me peace, and what is wrong with that?


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## bullethead (Aug 8, 2011)

gtparts said:


> I can only deduce that you are still referencing "time ticking away" with the SM song comment. For the record, and totally off topic, the verses nor chorus of "* Fly Like An Eagle *" refers to "ticking" or "tickin'". The chorus is the repetition of a single phrase, two lines.
> 
> "Time keeps on slippin', slippin', slippin'
> Into the future"



You Sir are correct!
I'll have to use a lifeline and go with Styx..."T-T-T-T-T-Ticking Away" (Too Much Time On My Hands)


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## gtparts (Aug 8, 2011)

bullethead said:


> You Sir are correct!
> I'll have to use a lifeline and go with Styx..."T-T-T-T-T-Ticking Away" (Too Much Time On My Hands)



Now, that dog'll hunt!


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## ambush80 (Aug 8, 2011)

gtparts said:


> I can only deduce that you are still referencing "time ticking away" with the SM song comment. For the record, and totally off topic, the verses nor chorus of "* Fly Like An Eagle *" refers to "ticking" or "tickin'". The chorus is the repetition of a single phrase, two lines.
> 
> "Time keeps on slippin', slippin', slippin'
> Into the future"
> ...




I can only speak for myself, though you seem to assume you know how all non-believers think.  

There was a time when I realized that some of the things that I was told were baseless and untrue.  I recognized, on my own, after much study and consideration that some people cling to superstition because of culture, upbringing and fear.  It doesn't make sense.  




JB0704 said:


> Invictus?
> 
> On topic, I watched Stephen Hawking's Discovery Channel show about the universe last night, and it was fascinating.  This thread came to mind.  What I got out of it was how incredibly short a human life actually is when taken in context of the universe.  I guess believing in God gives me _hope_ that what I do during that brief window is not completely insignificant.  Call it what you will, but that hope gives me peace, and what is wrong with that?



That's not the only way to feel good about your time here.  You can also understand, like Hawkings that every second here is precious.  You can revel in the pain and the joy with more fervor knowing that this may be the only chance you get to feel those things.  You don't have to minimize your experience by thinking that there is another chance to do it better on down the road.  DO IT BETTER NOW.  Make it all mean something now.  The believers may in fact be completely wrong.


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## stringmusic (Aug 8, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> You don't have to minimize your experience by thinking that there is another chance to do it better on down the road.  DO IT BETTER NOW. * Make it all mean something now*.  The believers may in fact be completely wrong.



If this is our only shot, everything we do means nothing. I can't see how you reconcile this statement with your worldview?


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## JB0704 (Aug 8, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> I can only speak for myself, though you seem to assume you know how all non-believers think.
> 
> There was a time when I realized that some of the things that I was told were baseless and untrue.  I recognized, on my own, after much study and consideration that some people cling to superstition because of culture, upbringing and fear.  It doesn't make sense.
> 
> ...



I also came to a point where I realized many things I believed were baseless and untrue.  This is applicable to most aspects of any religion.  I am not a "religious" person in the traditional sense.  I just could not logically rule out "God" from the equation.  I tried very hard to do that for quite some time, but came to a different conclusion than you did.

And I do recognize that life could be more "sweet" if the few seconds we have (in a universal context) is all there is.  I also recognize that I could be wrong.  Outside of the existence of God, my entire belief system is based on hope, which works for me.  I cannot logically argue for the existence of anything outside what we know.  I would never try to logically convince you I was right (outside of the OC issue), because I can't.  Hawkings is way smarter than I am, and I can appreciate the thought he has put in his position.  I do not agree with him on the OC issue, but I can agree that the universe is way too large to comprehend.  In that context, everything I do would seem insignificant if there is nothing larger at play.   That is just how it works for me.


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## mickbear (Aug 8, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Can you prove or dis-prove the flying spaghetti monster? Can you even come close to dis-proving him?


the flying spaghetti monster


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## bullethead (Aug 8, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> I can only speak for myself, though you seem to assume you know how all non-believers think.
> 
> There was a time when I realized that some of the things that I was told were baseless and untrue.  I recognized, on my own, after much study and consideration that some people cling to superstition because of culture, upbringing and fear.  It doesn't make sense.
> 
> ...



Well said.


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## ambush80 (Aug 8, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> If this is our only shot, everything we do means nothing. I can't see how you reconcile this statement with your worldview.



You want to spend your time here thinking that you are a worthless wretch because of what "Adam" did?  That's sad.  You are not a wretch and neither am I, unless of course you do wretched things, in that case don't and enjoy your time here.


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## stringmusic (Aug 9, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> You want to spend your time here thinking that you are a worthless wretch because of what "Adam" did?  That's sad.  You are not a wretch and neither am I, unless of course you do wretched things, in that case don't and enjoy your time here.



No, I don't spend my time thinking you or I are a worthless wretch, not at all.

You still didn't really address my post though. You can "make it mean something" in your mind, but if you die and see black forever, what you made something mean back in '98 really meant nothing at all.


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## ambush80 (Aug 9, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> No, I don't spend my time thinking you or I are a worthless wretch, not at all.
> 
> You still didn't really address my post though. You can "make it mean something" in your mind, but if you die and see black forever, what you made something mean back in '98 really meant nothing at all.



It did to you and whomever you influenced and it happened, whether recorded or not, and it made "ripples".  I like being here and I like hunting, fishing and drawing pictures by myself or with others and I see the value in those things and it doesn't have anything to do with eternity or God.  

Have you ever built a sand castle or made a snow angel?  Were those endeavors useless?  I say it's all in your attitude towards them.

It's up to you to assign meaning.  You've done it.  You just call it god.


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## JB0704 (Aug 9, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> It did to you and whomever you influenced and it happened, whether recorded or not, and it made "ripples".  I like being here and I like hunting, fishing and drawing pictures by myself or with others and I see the value in those things and it doesn't have anything to do with eternity or God.
> 
> Have you ever built a sand castle or made a snow angel?  Were those endeavors useless?  I say it's all in your attitude towards them.
> 
> It's up to you to assign meaning.  You've done it.  You just call it god.



I understand and appreciate what you are saying Ambush, and it makes a lot of sense.  I just look at it differently.  I hope to be a good Dad and raise both my kids to leave a positive impression on the world so that my "ripples" continue for many generations.  But it is when I contemplate the size and age of the universe, how small our planet is, and how short our lives are in perspective,  that leaves me hoping there is something larger at play in the universe. Otherwise, the ripples are insignificant as well, universally speaking. 

I know, it very well could be defined superstitious, but it is one that gives me peace, and makes sense to me.  That doesn't mean that I can't enjoy life for what it is, because regardless of whether or not God exists, we still only get one chance to be here, and life is a gift whether it is intentionally given or not.  

When considering the origins of space and time, we have to assign "God-like" qualities (infinite or self-creative) to something.  Even claiming we don't know does not change this, it simply allows for all of the possibilities.  For me, the logical explanation is the existence of a "prime-mover" (the simplest answer is usually the correct one/God-like qualities probably belong to a God-like entity).  If such a force exists, then it could be _possible_ we are not an insignificant accident. That is where the hope comes into play.


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## bullethead (Aug 9, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I understand and appreciate what you are saying Ambush, and it makes a lot of sense.  I just look at it differently.  I hope to be a good Dad and raise both my kids to leave a positive impression on the world so that my "ripples" continue for many generations.  But it is when I contemplate the size and age of the universe, how small our planet is, and how short our lives are in perspective,  that leaves me hoping there is something larger at play in the universe. Otherwise, the ripples are insignificant as well, universally speaking.
> 
> I know, it very well could be defined superstitious, but it is one that gives me peace, and makes sense to me.  That doesn't mean that I can't enjoy life for what it is, because regardless of whether or not God exists, we still only get one chance to be here, and life is a gift whether it is intentionally given or not.
> 
> When considering the origins of space and time, we have to assign "God-like" qualities (infinite or self-creative) to something.  Even claiming we don't know does not change this, it simply allows for all of the possibilities.  For me, the logical explanation is the existence of a "prime-mover" (the simplest answer is usually the correct one/God-like qualities probably belong to a God-like entity).  If such a force exists, then it could be _possible_ we are not an insignificant accident. That is where the hope comes into play.



Occam's Razor does not point to God. Godlike qualities are assigned by man. It is much simpler to not include invisible beings.


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 9, 2011)

I agree that it's simplER not including invisible all powerful beings. That doesn't mean that it leave something simple.


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## bullethead (Aug 9, 2011)

Nothing about why we are here  or why the things around us on this earth, in this solar system or beyond is simple. It is easy to comprehend if we make it so it is god created.


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## JB0704 (Aug 9, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Nothing about why we are here  or why the things around us on this earth, in this solar system or beyond is simple. It is easy to comprehend if we make it so it is god created.




There is no argument that "God-like" qualities are man's way of explaining the unexplainable.  Man has always created all sorts of gods to explain the universe.  That does not mean they were completely on the wrong track.  

When we have an answer as to how anything can be infinite and creative without being intelligent, then I will agree with you, and admit I am wrong.  Until then, we can disagree as to which possibility is the most probable: the universe creating itself, or being infinite, or"God", the "invisible man in the sky," "FSM," or whatever else you wish to call it.

My only point was that the size of the universe, and the concept of time makes our footprint seem incredibly insignificant if our existence is only by chance.  I do not judge your belief system, that is your business.  

I disagree that including "God" (we can use another word if you prefer, for the argument's sake) does not make it simpler.  Everything has to be by chance otherwise, and all of the laws and contents of the universe would have to self-create, or be infinite, which is "god-like" for lack of a better term.  In that context, the universe becomes "god."  Either way, something has one of those two qualities.


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## bullethead (Aug 10, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> There is no argument that "God-like" qualities are man's way of explaining the unexplainable.  Man has always created all sorts of gods to explain the universe.  That does not mean they were completely on the wrong track.
> 
> When we have an answer as to how anything can be infinite and creative without being intelligent, then I will agree with you, and admit I am wrong.  Until then, we can disagree as to which possibility is the most probable: the universe creating itself, or being infinite, or"God", the "invisible man in the sky," "FSM," or whatever else you wish to call it.
> 
> ...



True that there are many names that get credit for all that is around us. God, Nature, Force of the Cosmos, etc... humans will give it a title to get a closer feeling to it all. I can't say one is more right than the other. Whoever, whatever or however it all got started no one knows but I doubt any one of them guides us along with puppet strings or has any influence over us outside of the individual mind. Too many things happen around us that are random acts, unusual occurrences and outcomes that defy the odds so it is not impossible that the same thing could have taken place to get it all started.


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## ted_BSR (Aug 14, 2011)

bullethead said:


> True that there are many names that get credit for all that is around us. God, Nature, Force of the Cosmos, etc... humans will give it a title to get a closer feeling to it all. I can't say one is more right than the other. Whoever, whatever or however it all got started no one knows but I doubt any one of them guides us along with puppet strings or has any influence over us outside of the individual mind. Too many things happen around us that are random acts, unusual occurrences and outcomes that defy the odds so it is not impossible that the same thing could have taken place to get it all started.



Yet you say that one is wrong? (Belief in God???)

How'd you figure that out? Oh wait, was it logic?  Now I am confused.


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## bullethead (Aug 14, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> Yet you say that one is wrong? (Belief in God???)
> 
> How'd you figure that out? Oh wait, was it logic?  Now I am confused.



Ted you are confused. Where did I say one was wrong? I have argued that the God of the Bible and more specifically man's perception of that God might not be right(as I see it), but I have never told anyone they are wrong for believing what they do. I just try to figure out why they believe and offer counter points.


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## ted_BSR (Aug 14, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Ted you are confused. Where did I say one was wrong? I have argued that the God of the Bible and more specifically man's perception of that God might not be right(as I see it), but I have never told anyone they are wrong for believing what they do. I just try to figure out why they believe and offer counter points.



You said that you could not say one is more right than the other. You have given the impression many times that you think one is more right than the other.


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## bullethead (Aug 14, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> You said that you could not say one is more right than the other. You have given the impression many times that you think one is more right than the other.



What I admit to knowing for sure is neither. I am comfortable with the beliefs that I have in my own mind are right for me, but I cannot tell someone else their beliefs are not right for them. It is when I am told by someone that their beliefs should also be my beliefs that I want to know why and discuss it .


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## tween_the_banks (Aug 18, 2011)

I still want to know what space is expanding in to as was mentioned early on, that's really intriguing.
On a second note has anyone ever thought maybe the universe is a sphere like the earth. An old Modest Mouse song mentions the idea. The flat earthers (yes they still exist) wouldnt like the idea too much however lol.


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## Nicodemus (Aug 18, 2011)

To answer the original question, big. Real big.


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## bushidobam (Aug 18, 2011)

pbradley said:


> You haven't even gotten to the hard part, yet. If, in fact, the universe (reality) is still expanding, _what is it expanding into?_



Space.  The cold black nothingness that is space.


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## ted_BSR (Oct 11, 2011)

bushidobam said:


> Space.  The cold black nothingness that is space.



Poof.


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