# Just curious…



## buckpasser (Mar 20, 2022)

To the doubters and deniers; what would you do if it became clear to you that Bible prophecy was becoming reality?  Say, like some of the things mentioned for the end times (Daniel/Revelation)?  Would it effect your thoughts on all that you currently believe is man made hogwash?  Would you believe there was anything fishy about a one world government system or a currency that was scanned from head or hand?  Is there a line in the sand that qualifies as “okay, I may be wrong!  The Bible may be right.” Or would you just explain it all away no matter what?  Would you become concerned that we were telling the truth if the wholesale killing of Christians and/or other religious believers became legal or encouraged?  Thanks!


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> To the doubters and deniers; what would you do if it became clear to you that Bible prophecy was becoming reality?  Say, like some of the things mentioned for the end times (Daniel/Revelation)?  Would it effect your thoughts on all that you currently believe is man made hogwash?  Would you believe there was anything fishy about a one world government system or a currency that was scanned from head or hand?  Is there a line in the sand that qualifies as “okay, I may be wrong!  The Bible may be right.” Or would you just explain it all away no matter what?  Would you become concerned that we were telling the truth if the wholesale killing of Christians and/or other religious believers became legal or encouraged?  Thanks!


Personally I am open to accepting things that are undeniable but not things that happen which have been misinterpreted for almost 2000 years. Events have been happening over and over and over before during and after these apocalyptic writings and every single one of them has someone saying "this is it". When it turns out not to be it the excuses start. "It's the beginning" "Just wait it's coming" "These are signs". Generation after Generation of doomsdayers just cannot wait for some catastrophe so they can be right, die, and then have the next generation carry on the tradition. The signs just keep on appearing and passing, and reappearing daily for centuries.
The events happen but nobody shows up to fulfill the religious promises.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> To the doubters and deniers; what would you do if it became clear to you that Bible prophecy was becoming reality?  Say, like some of the things mentioned for the end times (Daniel/Revelation)?  Would it effect your thoughts on all that you currently believe is man made hogwash?  Would you believe there was anything fishy about a one world government system or a currency that was scanned from head or hand?  Is there a line in the sand that qualifies as “okay, I may be wrong!  The Bible may be right.” Or would you just explain it all away no matter what?  Would you become concerned that we were telling the truth if the wholesale killing of Christians and/or other religious believers became legal or encouraged?  Thanks!


To help me understand your views. 
Do you look forward to witnessing it or are you content to die for many millennia and wait?
It is always a win/win for believers. 
Claims of "this WILL happen" and when it doesn't just wait.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 20, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> To the doubters and deniers; what would you do if it became clear to you that Bible prophecy was becoming reality?  Say, like some of the things mentioned for the end times (Daniel/Revelation)?  Would it effect your thoughts on all that you currently believe is man made hogwash?  Would you believe there was anything fishy about a one world government system or a currency that was scanned from head or hand?  Is there a line in the sand that qualifies as “okay, I may be wrong!  The Bible may be right.” Or would you just explain it all away no matter what?  Would you become concerned that we were telling the truth if the wholesale killing of Christians and/or other religious believers became legal or encouraged?  Thanks!


Complicated question.
Going to bounce around a bit -


> The Bible may be right.


There are already enough things in the Bible that are not "right" to be able come to the conclusion that the Bible is "right" as a whole.


> if the wholesale killing of Christians and/or other religious believers became legal or encouraged?


I think history would show that that ^ wouldnt really be anything new?


> like some of the things mentioned for the end times


Folks have pointed to the state of affairs current at that time and claimed it was the end of times for years and years and.......
In other words I'll believe it when the end is the end.


> “okay, I may be wrong!  The Bible may be right.”


Change "the Bible" to "a God or gods" and i already acknowledge I may be wrong.


> Or would you just explain it all away no matter what?


A proven fact would be a proven fact that I would not try to explain away just because I didnt want to believe it.


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## buckpasser (Mar 20, 2022)

bullethead said:


> To help me understand your views.
> Do you look forward to witnessing it or are you content to die for many millennia and wait?
> It is always a win/win for believers.
> Claims of "this WILL happen" and when it doesn't just wait.



I’m neither here nor there on that one. I enjoy life for the most part and I have no vote on when the end comes, so I don’t think about it very often.  I guess I can’t help but notice wars or rumors of wars, instant communication and commerce internationally now at our disposal, the possibility of nuclear war, the possibility of famine, pandemics, and how they could easily facilitate some of the scenarios I know will take place.  I just asked to see how much or little it’s on your minds.


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## Railroader (Mar 20, 2022)

This world will end when it ends, and nobody knows or ever has known when that will be.

Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Native American, and countless other religions.  Who is right or wrong?  

I don't know.  And not sure I believe any of it.

A God, or Creator?

Absolutely.

All one has to do is look, this all had to come from somewhere, and man can NOT create anything NEAR the magnitude of this earth.

Want proof?

Here it is. The Spark of Life.

I have never seen, and no one else has either, The Spark of Life created.

But I have seen The Spark of Life go out enough times to KNOW that while we as men can extinguish that spark, we can't create it.

That's God's job, and his alone.

Life is short. Enjoy it, appreciate it, and be thankful for it.

That's all.


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## NCHillbilly (Mar 20, 2022)

If a seventh part of the stars fall from the heavens, I will start paying attention.

People have been claiming it is the "end times" for a couple thousand years, and looking for things to fit into prophecies.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2022)

Railroader said:


> This world will end when it ends, and nobody knows or ever has known when that will be.
> 
> Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Native American, and countless other religions.  Who is right or wrong?
> 
> ...


Where does anything point to a specific creator?
If you never heard of any god and you thought about " the spark of life" it absolutely in no way points to anything specific.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I’m neither here nor there on that one. I enjoy life for the most part and I have no vote on when the end comes, so I don’t think about it very often.  I guess I can’t help but notice wars or rumors of wars, instant communication and commerce internationally now at our disposal, the possibility of nuclear war, the possibility of famine, pandemics, and how they could easily facilitate some of the scenarios I know will take place.  I just asked to see how much or little it’s on your minds.


In all fairness famine, pandemics and wars have been around as long as humans.


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## Railroader (Mar 20, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Where does anything point to a specific creator?
> If you never heard of any god and you thought about " the spark of life" it absolutely in no way points to anything specific.



Honestly, I can't think "spark of life" without God, though I see your point.

This is the way I was taught from an early age, so it is part of me...

I also see God in Nature.  The plants, animals, earth, seas, and life supporting conditions on our planet.


 There is no way that "all of this" just happened by chance or accident, at least to my way of thinking and upbringing.

Spark of Life with no God, huh?  All I can say is whether I want to or not, I will spend some time pondering your question, and point...


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2022)

Railroader said:


> Honestly, I can't think "spark of life" without God, though I see your point.
> 
> This is the way I was taught from an early age, so it is part of me...
> 
> ...


For now my point isn't so much as "no god " as much as "what specific god?"

And even if there is a god involved, "life" is a concoction of "dead" chemicals and materials that form life when combined under conditions that differed greatly from today. Science hass been replicating thise conditions and creating synthetic cells.

Edited to add just to try to clarify:
You and I are in a parking lot checking out a brand new Ford F150, a brand new Chevy Silverado and a brand new Dodge Ram.
We can recognize design.
What about any of them tell us the name or anything specific about any or all of the people who had a hand in the designs? And we know humans were responsible but seeing those vehicles in no way specifies WHO. Same goes for the Sun in the sky above those three trucks.

Saying "god did it" could mean literally anything responsible.  It could be one of 10,000 deities that humans have worshipped and given credit for creation or it could be energy that got the ball rolling.


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## buckpasser (Mar 20, 2022)

bullethead said:


> For now my point isn't so much as "no god " as much as "what specific god?"
> 
> And even if there is a god involved, "life" is a concoction of "dead" chemicals and materials that form life when combined under conditions that differed greatly from today. Science hass been replicating thise conditions and creating synthetic cells.



We’re leaving the original point here, but the synthetic cell thing is not the be all end all of the conversation. I’m not convinced they’ve created anything from scratch, but let’s say they did.  They’d still be following a known blueprint to success, not throwing some sterile mud on a bucket and having a new organism appear.  The theory you subscribe to would be like a series of meteorites smashing together instantaneously and forming old faithful lodge out of trees, complete with fireplaces and running water.  Not gonna happen.


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## Railroader (Mar 20, 2022)

bullethead said:


> For now my point isn't so much as "no god " as much as "what specific god?"
> 
> And even if there is a god involved, "life" is a concoction of "dead" chemicals and materials that form life when combined under conditions that differed greatly from today. Science hass been replicating thise conditions and creating synthetic cells.



I have no idea what specific God, and when you come right down to it, nobody else does either. For most people it's a faith thing.

For me, I feel lucky that I was taught to "know God" based on lessons pointed out by some very wise upbringing.  Mostly philosophy, but some undeniably real, and powerful experiences along the way to ice the cake.

And none of it ever involved a so called man of God, preacher, prophet, or any other title you may choose.

I do not know what, specifically, God is.  But I know God is real.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> We’re leaving the original point here, but the synthetic cell thing is not the be all end all of the conversation. I’m not convinced they’ve created anything from scratch, but let’s say they did.  They’d still be following a known blueprint to success, not throwing some sterile mud on a bucket and having a new organism appear.  The theory you subscribe to would be like a series of meteorites smashing together instantaneously and forming old faithful lodge out of trees, complete with fireplaces and running water.  Not gonna happen.


No that is not my theory.
Time as in Billions of years of atoms, matter, elements and chemicals mixing at an almost infinite amount of times in different concoctions per second the entire time. This is happening and keeps happening even now. 
You are trying to make the comparison of going to a casino and pulling the handle on one slot machine one time. And hitting the grand prize.
But a more accurate description is pulling every handle on every slot machine a trillion- trillion times a second, every second over 10 Billion years. 

Which one has a greater chance of hitting the jackpot?


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## buckpasser (Mar 20, 2022)

bullethead said:


> No that is not my theory.
> Time as in Billions of years of atoms, matter, elements and chemicals mixing at an almost infinite amount of times in different concoctions per second the entire time. This is happening and keeps happening even now.
> You are trying to make the comparison of going to a casino and pulling the handle on one slot machine one time. And hitting the grand prize.
> But a more accurate description is pulling every handle on every slot machine a trillion- trillion times a second, every second over 10 Billion years.
> ...



We’re back to the infinite monkeys on typewriters theory. It relies on infinite or near infinite components to be plausible. I get it!  It’s still equivalent to the lodge being built by meteorites.  Infinite time on infinite planets with infinite meteorites and EVENTUALLY you get an exact replica of modern earth just built by accidental collisions. Sounds stupid right?  That’s because it is. Like the theory of instantaneous creation of accidental life.  Let’s get back on topic if we can. 

Does Israel and it’s fairly recent re-formation seem odd or of any significance to the AAs?  Just coincidence?  Unrelated?


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## Newt2 (Mar 20, 2022)

"To the doubters and deniers; what would you do if it became clear to you that Bible prophecy was becoming reality?"

Let me reverse that:

To the believers; what would you do if it became clear to you that Bible prophecy was not true?


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> We’re back to the infinite monkeys on typewriters theory. It relies on infinite or near infinite components to be plausible. I get it!  It’s still equivalent to the lodge being built by meteorites.  Infinite time on infinite planets with infinite meteorites and EVENTUALLY you get an exact replica of modern earth just built by accidental collisions. Sounds stupid right?  That’s because it is. Like the theory of instantaneous creation of accidental life.  Let’s get back on topic if we can.
> 
> Does Israel and it’s fairly recent re-formation seem odd or of any significance to the AAs?  Just coincidence?  Unrelated?


We are not back to infinite monkeys and typewriters.
We are at the best explanation that science and scientists ( that you would say your god created) have been able to understand,  test, and test and test constantly.

But in reality we know through the same science that an event happened roughly 14 billions years ago which got the ball rolling.
Absolutely nobody knows what was going on even one millisecond before that. You saying it was the God of the bible is as preposterous as someone saying it was infinite typewriters and monkeys. Science says it was neither.


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## buckpasser (Mar 20, 2022)

Newt2 said:


> "To the doubters and deniers; what would you do if it became clear to you that Bible prophecy was becoming reality?"
> 
> Let me reverse that:
> 
> To the believers; what would you do if it became clear to you that Bible prophecy was not true?



Good question!  I guess I’d be pretty screwed up, like if the sun didn’t rise tomorrow, but not to worry. It will.


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## buckpasser (Mar 20, 2022)

bullethead said:


> We are not back to infinite monkeys and typewriters.
> We are at the best explanation that science and scientists ( that you would say your god created) have been able to understand,  test, and test and test constantly.
> 
> But in reality we know through the same science that an event happened roughly 14 billions years ago which got the ball rolling.
> Absolutely nobody knows what was going on even one millisecond before that. You saying it was the God of the bible is as preposterous as someone saying it was infinite typewriters and monkeys. Science says it was neither.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> We’re back to the infinite monkeys on typewriters theory. It relies on infinite or near infinite components to be plausible. I get it!  It’s still equivalent to the lodge being built by meteorites.  Infinite time on infinite planets with infinite meteorites and EVENTUALLY you get an exact replica of modern earth just built by accidental collisions. Sounds stupid right?  That’s because it is. Like the theory of instantaneous creation of accidental life.  Let’s get back on topic if we can.
> 
> Does Israel and it’s fairly recent re-formation seem odd or of any significance to the AAs?  Just coincidence?  Unrelated?


Addressing Israel:
Why do the Jews have any more clout in this new religion that includes Gentiles?


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2022)

buckpasser said:


>


Emoji rebuttle. Solid


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2022)

The OT was the story of the Jewish culture. It was the story of how a god created a race to be "his" people. The stories are about how that god helped his people become a nation. It tells of the promises that god made to those people and the nation.
Why does the NT include non Jews but grace the benefits, promises and rewards to Israel?


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## buckpasser (Mar 20, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Addressing Israel:
> Why do the Jews have any more clout in this new religion that includes Gentiles?



Short answer, they don’t.


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## buckpasser (Mar 20, 2022)

bullethead said:


> The OT was the story of the Jewish culture. It was the story of how a god created a race to be "his" people. The stories are about how that god helped his people become a nation. It tells of the promises that god made to those people and the nation.
> Why does the NT include non Jews but grace the benefits, promises and rewards to Israel?



That’s pretty irrelevant and off topic again. The point of bringing it up is obvious. They were and then they weren’t, and now they are. Prophecy makes more sense when they “are”.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> That’s pretty irrelevant and off topic again. The point of bringing it up is obvious. They were and then they weren’t, and now they are. Prophecy makes more sense when they “are”.


"Prophesy makes more sense when they are"
Funny how that works


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## buckpasser (Mar 20, 2022)

bullethead said:


> "Prophesy makes more sense when they are"
> Funny how that works



Not really. There are just more options open right now than before they carved their nation again from nothing.  Pretty simple, but I fail to see the “funny”. True believers knew there’d be a way back when your camp was chanting “See! See!  There is no Israel!  It was all lies!”


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Not really. There are just more options open right now than before they carved their nation again from nothing.  Pretty simple, but I fail to see the “funny”. True believers knew there’d be a way back when your camp was chanting “See! See!  There is no Israel!  It was all lies!”


So when it all comes to fruition the Jews will have their own fulfilled prophecies meant for them. And then there will be another updated set for the other Jews and the Gentiles.
We have portions of the same book promising similar things to two different religions. Will there be a battle of God's chosen after all the non believers are dealt with?
Lets face it, the Jews use most of the same book, have their own prophecies and say the Christians are wrong.


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## earlthegoat2 (Mar 20, 2022)

If I ever saw a sign that God existed or that Bible words were coming true then yeah I would reverse my tune. 

I’ll wait. 

However, I truly believe most every “religious” person is participating in some form of Pascal’s Wager. 

So who is wrong?


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## buckpasser (Mar 20, 2022)

You can’t really have any communication in here without it going to faith vs proof, this time sooner rather than later. Is there even a need for this subforum?  We all know where we each stand.  I was trying to bring up something new (thank you to the real participants) to think a out and actually get the thoughts of the AAs. 

In here it’s the sad grumpy regulars, the occasionally visiting pimp slappers of the regulars, the open minded (that don’t stay long cause it’s boring) and the occasional drive by posters.  Is that about right?


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> You can’t really have any communication in here without it going to faith vs proof, this time sooner rather than later. Is there even a need for this subforum?  We all know where we each stand.  I was trying to bring up something new (thank you to the real participants) to think a out and actually get the thoughts of the AAs.
> 
> In here it’s the sad grumpy regulars, the occasionally visiting pimp slappers of the regulars, the open minded (that don’t stay long cause it’s boring) and the occasional drive by posters.  Is that about right?


Don't the other religions forums above know where everyone stands also?

Do us a favor and place names with your descriptions so we know who is who.

I think your problem here is that you expect others to go along with your beliefs as facts and then start these conversations from that point. As soon as we ask you some basic questions which require you to acknowledge and explain some things outside of your set criteria you accuse us of straying from the topic when the truth is many things must be established long before we get to your starting point to see how or if we can get to your starting point.


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## buckpasser (Mar 20, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Don't the other religions forums above know where everyone stands also?
> 
> Do us a favor and place names with your descriptions so we know who is who.
> 
> I think your problem here is that you expect others to go along with your beliefs as facts and then start these conversations from that point. As soon as we ask you some basic questions which require you acknowledge and explain some things outside of your set criteria you accuse us of straying from the topic when the truth is many things must be established long before we get to your starting point to see how or if we can get to your starting point.



No, I answer your questions and then you copy and paste some synthetic cell crap that I could just go read in another one of the pointless threads here. You’re attempting to be “deep” when you could just answer or let others answer and see where it goes.  Suit yourself.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> No, I answer your questions and then you copy and paste some synthetic cell crap that I could just go read in another one of the pointless threads here. You’re attempting to be “deep” when you could just answer or let others answer and see where it goes.  Suit yourself.


You have to establish that something existed prior to the big bang (if you believe in the big bang) or prior to the first creation day (if you think the universe was created in 6 days) before you can move on to claiming who and what it did afterwards. 

Who am I stopping from answering? How can I stop anyone else from answering?
It seems that you aren't saying anything worthwhile to get answers from others that has not been discredited,  refuted and debunked 100 times already.


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## buckpasser (Mar 20, 2022)

bullethead said:


> You have to establish that something existed prior to the big bang (if you believe in the big bang) or prior to the first creation day (if you think the universe was created in 6 days.
> 
> Who am I stopping from answering? How can I stop anyone else from answering?
> It seems that you aren't saying anything worthwhile to get answers from others that has not been discredited,  refuted and debunked 100 times already.



Blah blah blah.  It was a simple topic.  You choose to go straight to the faith vs proof instead of obliging me some simple answers, or let others move it that way.  I wasn’t setting a trap.  I’m sure I probably degrade some things I get into like you do this place, so I won’t throw stones.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Blah blah blah.  It was a simple topic.  You choose to go straight to the faith vs proof instead of obliging me some simple answers, or let others move it that way.  I wasn’t setting a trap.  I’m sure I probably degrade some things I get into like you do this place, so I won’t throw stones.


Anyone can read what you post at any time, hit reply and answer you. Ihave absolutely nothing to do with who does or does not care to indulge you.


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## buckpasser (Mar 20, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Anyone can read what you post at any time, hit reply and answer you. Ihave absolutely nothing to do with who does or does not care to indulge you.



You attempt to steer each thread into the same old tired garbage.  It’s mildly entertaining, once.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2022)

It seems like many in here differ from your opinion on that also from the PMs I receive. 
You, like the hit and runners, are unable to make valid points so you start pesonal nonsense like this. That is totally up to you Captn Christian.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> You attempt to steer each thread into the same old tired garbage.  It’s mildly entertaining, once.


I ask until it is answered with verifiable facts.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> You attempt to steer each thread into the same old tired garbage.  It’s mildly entertaining, once.


In post #2 I answered your OP with my first sentence.


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## buckpasser (Mar 20, 2022)

I’m glad your happy pms are flowing.  I’m not starting anything personal, just pointing out your tired and predictable ways.  I’ll wait to see if anyone has anything of value to offer.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I’m glad your happy pms are flowing.  I’m not starting anything personal, just pointing out your tired and predictable ways.  I’ll wait to see if anyone has anything of value to offer.


Again, you are putting words in my posts that are not there.
Did I say anywhere that I am happy PMs are flying? I'll save you the time....the answer is No. I mentioned it to show you there are other opinions that greatly differed than yours.
Who, personally,  were you talking about when you had to go off on your lttle rant about grumpy regulars, pimp slappers and the posts where you specifically said "you" in your reply when quoting me above your reply?


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## buckpasser (Mar 20, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> If a seventh part of the stars fall from the heavens, I will start paying attention.
> 
> People have been claiming it is the "end times" for a couple thousand years, and looking for things to fit into prophecies.



That last part is true, and I don’t claim it’s right around the corner. For all I know it’s 10,000 years away.  I was just curious as to how often/if the AA folks here thought much on it.  Unlike some here I’m just wanting to spur communication, not to put somebody in a headlock and get down to the same bull hock ending as the other threads.


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## buckpasser (Mar 20, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Again, you are putting words in my posts that are not there.
> Did I say anywhere that I am happy PMs are flying? I'll save you the time....the answer is No. I mentioned it to show you there are other opinions that greatly differed than yours.
> Who, personally,  were you talking about when you had to go off on your lttle rant about grumpy regulars, pimp slappers and the posts where you specifically said "you" in your reply when quoting me above your reply?



Pardon me if I don’t reply endlessly to your off topic nonsense.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Pardon me if I don’t reply endlessly to your off topic nonsense.


You brought that topic up within your other topics. Don't be mad at me for your words.


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## buckpasser (Mar 20, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Again, you are putting words in my posts that are not there.
> Did I say anywhere that I am happy PMs are flying? I'll save you the time....the answer is No. I mentioned it to show you there are other opinions that greatly differed than yours.
> Who, personally,  were you talking about when you had to go off on your lttle rant about grumpy regulars, pimp slappers and the posts where you specifically said "you" in your reply when quoting me above your reply?



Not “you’re happy pms”, your happy pms as in yours. The pms being pat on your back sort of pms.  It wasn’t a rant. It’s just how I see the demographics in here.


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## buckpasser (Mar 20, 2022)

bullethead said:


> You brought that topic up within your other topics. Don't be mad at me for your words.



If I agree not to be mad, will you go away?


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> If I agree not to be mad, will you go away?


I have every right to be in these forums.
I am not harassing you or insulting you.
You don't like my answers so you don't want to hear them. Ignore me and all the conversation that does not please you. I don't care.


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## buckpasser (Mar 20, 2022)

I don’t mind your answers the first 50 times.  You’re bringing down the already slim chance that this sub forum could be interesting.  I guess you think you win something? Beat someone?  Well, that’s not what happens. You just dull it to the same death as other threads. 

Read this thread minus your pointless garbage and me pointing out your pointless garbage. It would be much better. Others gave honest answers. I agree with almost none of the others here, yet we didn’t spiral into this mess.  I enjoyed their responses.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I don’t mind your answers the first 50 times.  You’re bringing down the already slim chance that this sub forum could be interesting.  I guess you think you win something? Beat someone?  Well, that’s not what happens. You just dull it to the same death as other threads.
> 
> Read this thread minus your pointless garbage and me pointing out your pointless garbage. It would be much better. Others gave honest answers. I agree with almost none of the others here, yet we didn’t spiral into this mess.  I enjoyed their responses.


I answered you cordially initially. I was quoting and talking to Railroader until you felt the need to tell me what I can say and how I should answer. You and I were cool into post #5. From #6 into #12 I am directly replying to Railroader. You quoted my replies to him and said we are geting off topic. I answered your topic already and moved on to another.
Then you took that to insults.

Luckily nobody appointed you forum critic. You are asking us hypotheticals which were answered.  You don't know anything more than what is written in the bible. You have every right to believe and interpret it however it makes sense to you. You are in the wrong place if you think that you shouldn't get challened. This isn't a book club to read a paragraph and discuss our feelings. This is a make a good case for your claims forum because a lot of questions will be asked and a lot of paths that eventually connect will be taken. Many in here on both sides do quite well.


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## Spotlite (Mar 20, 2022)

Newt2 said:


> "To the doubters and deniers; what would you do if it became clear to you that Bible prophecy was becoming reality?"
> 
> Let me reverse that:
> 
> To the believers; what would you do if it became clear to you that Bible prophecy was not true?


Anyone can claim to be a believer / former believer that jumped through all of the man made hoops to be accepted into a church  but when this happens - “But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God”, then there’s no doubt ever about it being true.

The key to all this is right there ^^^^ not something testable by science.


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## buckpasser (Mar 20, 2022)

I don’t mind being challenged.  I won’t keep rewriting what I’ve already said. You are a broken record. Please, just stop.  Everyone else did a fine job of providing material to think on and possibly appreciate.  You went right for RR and tried to put him into your patented spiral to the basics head lock. It’s boring and dull. That’s why I stepped in.  I’m sorry but I’m just not interested in anything you’re saying on this one.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Anyone can claim to be a believer / former believer that jumped through all of the man made hoops to be accepted into a church  but when this happens - “But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God”, then there’s no doubt ever about it being true.
> 
> The key to all this is right there ^^^^ not something testable by science.


Spot, is that truth subjecive? Meaning is it truth among believers in all the different religions because they feel they've had a similar/same experience as you?


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I don’t mind being challenged.  I won’t keep rewriting what I’ve already said. You are a broken record. Please, just stop.  Everyone else did a fine job of providing material to think on and possibly appreciate.  You went right for RR and tried to put him into your patented spiral to the basics head lock. It’s boring and dull. That’s why I stepped in.  I’m sorry but I’m just not interested in anything you’re saying on this one.


I don't care what your interests are. Put me on Ignore .
Railroader wasn't intimidated, offended or crying foul. He said he has something to think on. 
Lighten Up Francis.


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## Spotlite (Mar 20, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Spot, is that truth subjecive? Meaning is it truth among believers in all the different religions because they feel they've had a similar/same experience as you?


There’s only one truth. There are some things where folks can differ but there are certain things that aren’t. Once God said something is an abomination it’ll always be an abomination so those denominations / churches patty caking it as ok since God is a God of love……….


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> There’s only one truth. There are some things where folks can differ but there are certain things that aren’t. Once God said something is an abomination it’ll always be an abomination so those denominations / churches patty caking it as ok since God is a God of love……….


You know I am sympathetic to your beliefs but equally sympathetic to those of others too. What it says in one book over another is a battle of the books. How do I believe one over the other? They both or all say theirs is true.


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## buckpasser (Mar 20, 2022)

You have to prove it @Spotlite.  There’s no talking it through. They make synthetic cells now after all!!!  Haha


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## NE GA Pappy (Mar 20, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> If a seventh part of the stars fall from the heavens, I will start paying attention.
> 
> People have been claiming it is the "end times" for a couple thousand years, and looking for things to fit into prophecies.



the big problem with this is that when those stars fall, it will be to late if (and I believe it is) the Bible is true and accurate.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ ( the last book in the Bible) is largely about the salvation of the Jewish nation.  The church and christains as we know them now is only mentioned in the first 4 chapters.  After that, there is no more mention of the church.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> You have to prove it @Spotlite.  There’s no talking it through. They make synthetic cells now after all!!!  Haha


Stay on topic. Sniff sniff, You are butting in. Sniff sniff. You, sniff, you are b-b-boring, sniff, sniff.

See you don't like anyone having a conversation that doesn't include you.
You stepped in on RR and now Spot.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 20, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> That last part is true, and I don’t claim it’s right around the corner. For all I know it’s 10,000 years away.  I was just curious as to how often/if the AA folks here thought much on it.  Unlike some here I’m just wanting to spur communication, not to put somebody in a headlock and get down to the same bull hock ending as the other threads.





> I was just curious as to how often/if the AA folks here thought much on it.


Doesnt even enter my mind unless asked.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> the big problem with this is that when those stars fall, it will be to late if (and I believe it is) the Bible is true and accurate.
> 
> The Revelation of Jesus Christ ( the last book in the Bible) is largely about the salvation of the Jewish nation.  The church and christains as we know them now is only mentioned in the first 4 chapters.  After that, there is no more mention of the church.


I have read where Revelation was written anywhere from 20 AD to 95 AD.
What are your thoughts on when or what has your research led you think about when Revelation was written?


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## Spotlite (Mar 20, 2022)

bullethead said:


> You know I am sympathetic to your beliefs but equally sympathetic to those of others too. What it says in one book over another is a battle of the books. How do I believe one over the other? They both or all say theirs is true.


When the below happens, all the pieces come together. I don’t know what and can’t even grasp what the Muslim finds that is undeniable “proof” of Allah. But based on my spiritual experience, I believe that Allah is a false god that’s a work of the god of this earth (devil). I realize the Muslim and anyone else that doesn’t believe in God can view me the same way but I gotta go with what I know and believe is truth. 


> But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God”, then there’s no doubt ever about it being true.






buckpasser said:


> You have to prove it @Spotlite.  There’s no talking it through. They make synthetic cells now after all!!!  Haha


Nah lol I just gotta know my limitations and know that only God can prove God. All I can do is state my belief.


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## bullethead (Mar 21, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> When the below happens, all the pieces come together. I don’t know what and can’t even grasp what the Muslim finds that is undeniable “proof” of Allah. But based on my spiritual experience, I believe that Allah is a false god that’s a work of the god of this earth (devil). I realize the Muslim and anyone else that doesn’t believe in God can view me the same way but I gotta go with what I know and believe is truth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Like I said, I understand what works for you.


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## buckpasser (Mar 21, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Doesnt even enter my mind unless asked.



That makes perfect sense I guess.  Mine either too much. I guess I brought it up, because short of the death of each of us, it might be a time of some “revealing” of what’s true or false if it were to go down in our lifetimes.  It goes without saying that I believe it will all be as written, and I realize you don’t see that as likely true.  On a side note, I think most Christians I know see the end as an easy peasy departure before anything rough happens to them. I’m a “post trib” outcast, or at least open minded to the fact we don’t know exactly when we as Christians might get a break from the horrible things mentioned in the last days of the Bible.


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## buckpasser (Mar 21, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> When the below happens, all the pieces come together. I don’t know what and can’t even grasp what the Muslim finds that is undeniable “proof” of Allah. But based on my spiritual experience, I believe that Allah is a false god that’s a work of the god of this earth (devil). I realize the Muslim and anyone else that doesn’t believe in God can view me the same way but I gotta go with what I know and believe is truth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, I too hope to be able to share my personal experiences with God to see some voluntary “knee bending” before the end if possible. Haha


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## 660griz (Mar 21, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> To the doubters and deniers; what would you do if it became clear to you that Bible prophecy was becoming reality?  Say, like some of the things mentioned for the end times (Daniel/Revelation)?


 Probably nothing. What could I do? Plus, whenever any event happens, I don't necessarily run to any book to see of it was prophesied anywhere. 





> Would it effect your thoughts on all that you currently believe is man made hogwash?


 Hard to say.  





> Would you believe there was anything fishy about a one world government system or a currency that was scanned from head or hand?


 I am against a one world government now. Even the EU didn't work out quite so good.   





> Is there a line in the sand that qualifies as “okay, I may be wrong!  The Bible may be right.” Or would you just explain it all away no matter what?


 If the Bible is right, proof has got to come from outside the Bible. No prophesies, no interpretations or looking stuff up. A God of miracles can find a way. He/She use to do it all the time. I know everyone has a camera now but, he/she should go for it.   





> Would you become concerned that we were telling the truth if the wholesale killing of Christians and/or other religious believers became legal or encouraged?  Thanks!


 I would become extremely concerned if the wholesale killing of any group became legal or encouraged. I would check my ammo supply and do what I could to prevent it. On the other extreme, what if the wholesale killing of atheist became legal or encouraged? Is is ok to purge the heathen from the face of the earth?


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## WaltL1 (Mar 21, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> That makes perfect sense I guess.  Mine either too much. I guess I brought it up, because short of the death of each of us, it might be a time of some “revealing” of what’s true or false if it were to go down in our lifetimes.  It goes without saying that I believe it will all be as written, and I realize you don’t see that as likely true.  On a side note, I think most Christians I know see the end as an easy peasy departure before anything rough happens to them. I’m a “post trib” outcast, or at least open minded to the fact we don’t know exactly when we as Christians might get a break from the horrible things mentioned in the last days of the Bible.


So do you literally believe, and lets keep it local - here in the US, that here in the US Christians are going to be gunned down in the streets/hung from a cherry tree/whatever because they are Christians?


> Choosing to obey and worship the Beast during the last days will forestall the devil's wrath and allow people to live a little bit longer on earth. It comes, however, at the tremendous expense of experiencing horrific punishments from God (Revelation 14:9 - 10).
> 
> Choosing to obey the Eternal, however, will spare people God's wrath (see Revelation 9:4, 18:4). They will, however, be considered enemies of the world and martyred (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 13:7 - 10, 15).


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## Railroader (Mar 21, 2022)

Well fellers, THIS is why I normally avoid religious conversation...

Among Christians, theirs is the ONLY way, you HAVE to believe it, EVERYBODY else is wrong, and if I DON'T believe as they do, it's straight to the devil for me. It is also their DUTY to get the word out and SAVE others...

The AA's believe in NOTHING, and try to convince Believers that there's NOTHING to believe in.

Usually turns into an argument with strong feelings on both sides, and very seldom reaches resolution.

My "religion" fits in NOWHERE.  I was exposed to a bunch of things from childhood, and allowed to make up my own mind.

Some Native American, some Eastern Philosophy, Some Christianity, and the most interesting was Mountain Folklore and Healing.

My Granny in Kentucky was a Healer.  Knew The Signs, The Potions, and The Incants.  Corn Liquor was The Medicine.

Some called her a Good Christian, some called her a witch.

But they ALL came to her because she had Power.

My Dad was "eat slap up" with Native Teachings, AND Asian Philosophy.  And he loved to talk, and share.

As for me, I have seen physical things that cannot be denied.  Enough to unquestionably BELIEVE in God.

But I will not tell ANYONE they are wrong, and there is no way I can change a mind, because it would require me being able to put a lifetime in a paragraph to sell it...

And nobody would believe it if I could.

So I will leave it here, by saying that right or wrong I am confident in my own position, and prepared for The End...


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## 660griz (Mar 21, 2022)

Railroader said:


> The AA's believe in NOTHING, and try to convince Believers that there's NOTHING to believe in.


I don't try to convince believers of anything. I spend most of my time explaining how I got to this point and topics to ponder...if you believe. I just want folks to think about it. I do sincerely apologize if I come off as trying to get folks to not believe. 

To me anyway, it is a scary world when the only thing keeping folks from going on a murdering spree is the belief in a supernatural being. Kind of like working with a psycho that is perfectly fine as long as they take their meds.  What if they don't take their meds? 
In other words, if God gave you your morals, you scary. You could possibly lack any empathy or compassion and you just live within the margins of society cause the 10 commandments. Praying for the end of time. (RIP Meatloaf) 
Therefore, I don't want to take that leash off of ya. You keep believing. 

Do I think society would be better off if folks were kind cause they generally loved their fellow man rather than cause it was against the 'law'? Absolutely. 

There are not many 'blue' laws left that affect me so, I don't have a lot to whine about. I can buy beer on Sunday and shoot guns. What else do I need?


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## WaltL1 (Mar 21, 2022)

Railroader said:


> Well fellers, THIS is why I normally avoid religious conversation...
> 
> Among Christians, theirs is the ONLY way, you HAVE to believe it, EVERYBODY else is wrong, and if I DON'T believe as they do, it's straight to the devil for me. It is also their DUTY to get the word out and SAVE others...
> 
> ...


Just a comment and it has nothing to do with your personal beliefs in God or a god.


> The AA's believe in NOTHING, and try to convince Believers that there's NOTHING to believe in.


I honestly dont think thats accurate. At least not for the A/As here. Not trying to convince anybody of anything. Just debating/arguing against claims that are made.
If we were able to convince a Christian there was no God then their faith was pretty darn weak to begin with.
Folks have to remember this is the Atheists/Agnostics/APOLOGETICS forum.
And Apologetics means -


> A·pol·o·get·ics
> /əˌpäləˈjediks/
> plural
> 
> 1.reasoned arguments or writings in justification of something, typically a theory or religious doctrine:



And thats all thats happening here  
Different sides with differing opinions making reasoned (hopefully) arguments.

And your Granny sounds like she was pretty darn interesting. Would have been very cool to talk to her.


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## Railroader (Mar 21, 2022)

@660griz...

I was speaking generally, not specifically, based on experience.

My views usually make heads on both sides explode...


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## Railroader (Mar 21, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Just a comment and it has nothing to do with your personal beliefs in God or a god.
> 
> I honestly dont think thats accurate. At least not for the A/As here. Not trying to convince anybody of anything. Just debating/arguing against claims that are made.
> If we were able to convince a Christian there was no God then their faith was pretty darn weak to begin with.
> ...



Point taken, and again I was speaking generally...I think this is actually the first time I have jumped into this forum, and I gotta say it's pretty good natured as religious discussion goes.

And yes, Granny WAS a very interesting old lady.  Lot's of Old Wisdom, and she cured me of the warts... ?


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## bullethead (Mar 21, 2022)

Railroader said:


> Point taken, and again I was speaking generally...I think this is actually the first time I have jumped into this forum, and I gotta say it's pretty good natured as religious discussion goes.
> 
> And yes, Granny WAS a very interesting old lady.  Lot's of Old Wisdom, and she cured me of the warts... ?


My great-great grandmother was known to be a healer. She used Potatoes. I never knew her, just heard stories passed down about how locals would come to her for various ailments. Warts being one of them.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 21, 2022)

Here's something that confuses me: in one part of the bible god/Jesus says to watch for the signs that will indicate his immanent return. 

Yet in another part of the bible it says that "no man knows the hour". 
And of course the bible warns about false prophets, yet everyone who sees "the signs" but misinterprets the signs would, in effect, be a false prophet themselves!


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## NE GA Pappy (Mar 21, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I have read where Revelation was written anywhere from 20 AD to 95 AD.
> What are your thoughts on when or what has your research led you think about when Revelation was written?



well, since Jesus was executed somewhere around 30ad, and John wasn't put on the Isle of Patmos until somewhere around 90 to 95AD, I don't really see how those dates could be correct.


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## buckpasser (Mar 21, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Here's something that confuses me: in one part of the bible god/Jesus says to watch for the signs that will indicate his immanent return.
> 
> Yet in another part of the bible it says that "no man knows the hour".
> And of course the bible warns about false prophets, yet everyone who sees "the signs" but misinterprets the signs would, in effect, be a false prophet themselves!



I get out of it that believers are to be encouraged by an increasingly discouraging world, knowing that it will ultimately deteriorate more and more before a final resolution. The not knowing the hour part, is more of an exact measurement not being our concern. Like, GA turkey season can be planned on each year in the spring time. Opening day, however, is still up in the air the 2035 season, and it really does us no good to try and plan our vacation days for that one. Does that make sense?

If we were to plan on an exact minute, hour, day, month, year or even decade, we’d wind up looking like the Hale Bopp Heaven’s Gate folks, as some cults have done.


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## buckpasser (Mar 21, 2022)

Railroader said:


> Point taken, and again I was speaking generally...I think this is actually the first time I have jumped into this forum, and I gotta say it's pretty good natured as religious discussion goes.
> 
> And yes, Granny WAS a very interesting old lady.  Lot's of Old Wisdom, and she cured me of the warts... ?



There was a touch of that in my family as well. My great grandmother supposedly passed a little to my Papa, who somehow spoke warts off of us when we got one.  I’ve heard of some strange happenings that I didn’t see about tumors and such. I chalked them up to being like the egg yolk scam people do.  A lot of “healing” comes from “knowing” you’re healed I guess.


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## bullethead (Mar 21, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> well, since Jesus was executed somewhere around 30ad, and John wasn't put on the Isle of Patmos until somewhere around 90 to 95AD, I don't really see how those dates could be correct.


Agreed. The numbers are all over the place among religious scholars and sites. Many say pre 70AD and give their reasons. I wanted to ask your opinion.  Thanks


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## Spotlite (Mar 21, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Here's something that confuses me: in one part of the bible god/Jesus says to watch for the signs that will indicate his immanent return.
> 
> Yet in another part of the bible it says that "no man knows the hour".
> And of course the bible warns about false prophets, yet everyone who sees "the signs" but misinterprets the signs would, in effect, be a false prophet themselves!


Signs of the end were never meant to interpret. They only mean to be watchful and wise and not be foolish - basically, during labor you don’t know the hour that the baby is coming but you better prepare now, and more so ever when you see the water break.

The Bible also says a wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after signs, so when a man stands up to prophecy that “the end of the world is January 1, 2023” you can go ahead and write him off as a wicked, foolish, false prophet.


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## bullethead (Mar 21, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Signs of the end were never meant to interpret. They only mean to be watchful and wise and not be foolish - basically, during labor you don’t know the hour that the baby is coming but you better prepare now, and more so ever when you see the water break.
> 
> The Bible also says a wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after signs, so when a man stands up to prophecy that “the end of the world is January 1, 2023” you can go ahead and write him off as a wicked, foolish, false prophet.


Is there a time frame from when the first sign is given? 
Meaning will the other events happen in short order or will it take course over hundreds or thousands of years?


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## WaltL1 (Mar 21, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I get out of it that believers are to be encouraged by an increasingly discouraging world, knowing that it will ultimately deteriorate more and more before a final resolution. The not knowing the hour part, is more of an exact measurement not being our concern. Like, GA turkey season can be planned on each year in the spring time. Opening day, however, is still up in the air the 2035 season, and it really does us no good to try and plan our vacation days for that one. Does that make sense?
> 
> If we were to plan on an exact minute, hour, day, month, year or even decade, we’d wind up looking like the Hale Bopp Heaven’s Gate folks, as some cults have done.





> Hale Bopp Heaven’s Gate folks


Gotta give them credit, they were some dedicated believers.


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## Spotlite (Mar 21, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Is there a time frame from when the first sign is given?
> Meaning will the other events happen in short order or will it take course over hundreds or thousands of years?


Other than this generation shall not pass. But keep in mind that a generation to God could be a certain people and nit limited to what has defined a generation to be.


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## bullethead (Mar 21, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Other than this generation shall not pass. But keep in mind that a generation to God could be a certain people and nit limited to what has defined a generation to be.


Yes. And why I ask such things to various people. With almost everything in scripture it seems to be left to individual interpretation. Lots of could be's so to speak so I wonder what the different could be's are.

Edited to add:
For example , if someone is claiming what is going on with Israel is the start or part of it, Is this the generation Jesus meant?
Or
Could it start now and take another 100 generations or more?

I like to hear the thoughts.


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## Spotlite (Mar 21, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Yes. And why I ask such things to various people. With almost everything in scripture it seems to be left to individual interpretation. Lots of could be's so to speak so I wonder what the different could be's are.


Not really individual interpretation, or at least shouldn’t be. My main point is since we are talking Bible, if the Bible states something and doesn’t define a term, to me it’s an assumption when we try to define it. 

I’m just keeping an open mind that generation to God could mean something besides generation as we’ve defined it. It might not, but it could be. It’s been interpreted to “coming forth”, “creation”, etc.

I look at it as “signs of the end” and this generation shall not pass until all these things are fulfilled as being a dispensation period such as a time God dedicated to do certain things.

To narrow it down to some questionable or possible specifics; is it the Jewish people from the time the 2nd Temple was destroyed to the tine when the Jews return home because this an era of time that’s different from how Jews used to take care of their sacrificial offerings? Budding of the fig tree is also part of the end time prophecy. The budding of the fig tree is also used as prophecy of His return and taught that when Israel became a nation that was the budding of the fig tree and in preparation for the 3rd Temple. When the Antichrist sets himself up in that Temple and desecrates it that’s when all the bad to earth happens.


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## atlashunter (Mar 29, 2022)

Been a while since I've been on here but I'll add my two cents to the conversation. I think the point of the question was what if you saw prophecies in Revelation coming true, would it change your view? I notice that the prophecies chosen in the question, assuming they are actually valid interpretations of scripture, are pretty mild and don't require anything supernatural. Why is that? Wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes, famine, plagues, tyrants attempting to control the world... none of this is new to the human experience. Looking at history those things are the rule not the exception. And there are plenty of different cults out there with doomsday predictions, many of which could be taken as plausible possibilities by any reasonable person. Even if they got that part right it would do nothing to lend any credibility to whatever supernatural claims they might lump in with it.

As was pointed out with the prophecy about stars falling to earth that would get my attention. Especially since we now know what the author of that scripture didn't know, that stars are far more massive than the earth and so can't fall to the earth. If anything the earth would fall to the star and would be consumed by the star. There would be nothing left for any other star to fall to. The impossibility of that prediction tells us at a minimum that the bible is not inerrant and not the product of an infallible divine revelation. It's exactly what we would expect of human ignorance about the nature of the universe when it was written. But that aside there are other predictions that would be far more persuasive if they were to take place. Like the claim Jesus will descend out of the clouds on a horse with a sword protruding from his mouth. If I saw that happen of course I would realize the bible was right at least about that. 






buckpasser said:


> Good question!  I guess I’d be pretty screwed up, like if the sun didn’t rise tomorrow, but not to worry. It will.



^That would explain why so many christians believe in the first place and never give serious consideration to the possibility that their beliefs may not be true.


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## buckpasser (Mar 29, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Been a while since I've been on here but I'll add my two cents to the conversation. I think the point of the question was what if you saw prophecies in Revelation coming true, would it change your view? I notice that the prophecies chosen in the question, assuming they are actually valid interpretations of scripture, are pretty mild and don't require anything supernatural. Why is that? Wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes, famine, plagues, tyrants attempting to control the world... none of this is new to the human experience. Looking at history those things are the rule not the exception. And there are plenty of different cults out there with doomsday predictions, many of which could be taken as plausible possibilities by any reasonable person. Even if they got that part right it would do nothing to lend any credibility to whatever supernatural claims they might lump in with it.
> 
> As was pointed out with the prophecy about stars falling to earth that would get my attention. Especially since we now know what the author of that scripture didn't know, that stars are far more massive than the earth and so can't fall to the earth. If anything the earth would fall to the star and would be consumed by the star. There would be nothing left for any other star to fall to. The impossibility of that prediction tells us at a minimum that the bible is not inerrant and not the product of an infallible divine revelation. It's exactly what we would expect of human ignorance about the nature of the universe when it was written. But that aside there are other predictions that would be far more persuasive if they were to take place. Like the claim Jesus will descend out of the clouds on a horse with a sword protruding from his mouth. If I saw that happen of course I would realize the bible was right at least about that.
> 
> ...



Have you ever heard of a shooting star?  I guess if you take the word “star” literally from the author, then I get your point.  When I read through that (without looking to split hairs and prove my point about the Bible being full of lies), I just interpret it as being meteors, meteorite, part of an asteroid perhaps, same as most normal folks.  Before the rest of you chime in, notice I did say NORMAL folks.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 29, 2022)

Admittedly, I am not normal. I read this -


> And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.


to mean "stars". Not asteroids, meteors or tomatoes 
Thats what it says. Stars.
One more example of the Bible saying this but really meaning that?


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## buckpasser (Mar 29, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Admittedly, I am not normal. I read this -
> 
> to mean "stars". Not asteroids, meteors or tomatoes
> Thats what it says. Stars.
> One more example of the Bible saying this but really meaning that?



I agree with your first sentence.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 29, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I agree with your first sentence.


I was told the first step is admitting it.


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## Spotlite (Mar 29, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Have you ever heard of a shooting star?  I guess if you take the word “star” literally from the author, then I get your point.  When I read through that (without looking to split hairs and prove my point about the Bible being full of lies), I just interpret it as being meteors, meteorite, part of an asteroid perhaps, same as most normal folks.  Before the rest of you chime in, notice I did say NORMAL folks.


You gotta remember to separate one’s disdain for God and an honest debate or lack of understanding of the Bible.


“When meteoroids enter Earth's atmosphere (or that of another planet, like Mars) at high speed and burn up, the fireballs or “shooting stars” are called meteors. When a meteoroid survives a trip through the atmosphere and hits the ground, it's called a meteorite.”

Falling stars were there then, they’re here now. Majority of folks today refer to it as fallen stars. Everything is a star or a ufo. 

Some are convinced that they know the Bible better than most Christians and that if the Bible was the inherit Word of God there’d be no confusion. But if they knew the Bible like they thought, they’d know exactly why they’re loster than a ball in high weeds.

They forget that a deity such as God has the ability to put things on a level to whoever He’s dealing with. Those folks 2,000 years ago didn’t have a clue of what a meteorite was any more than they knew what asphalt was.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 29, 2022)

I like the description.  It’s very easy to comprehend if you’ve shaken a fig branch loaded with ripe or overripe fruit.  They splat on the ground at a pretty rapid clip and would represent one wicked meteor shower.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 29, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> You gotta remember to separate one’s disdain for God and an honest debate or lack of understanding of the Bible.
> 
> 
> “When meteoroids enter Earth's atmosphere (or that of another planet, like Mars) at high speed and burn up, the fireballs or “shooting stars” are called meteors. When a meteoroid survives a trip through the atmosphere and hits the ground, it's called a meteorite.”
> ...



I like that. Lost as a goose in the fog is the one I use.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 29, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Have you ever heard of a shooting star?  I guess if you take the word “star” literally from the author, then I get your point.  When I read through that (without looking to split hairs and prove my point about the Bible being full of lies), I just interpret it as being meteors, meteorite, part of an asteroid perhaps, same as most normal folks.  Before the rest of you chime in, notice I did say NORMAL folks.



If we were talking about a normal book it might not be reasonable to expect scientific accuracy of a book written in antiquity. But that's not what we are talking about is it?
This is a book christians claim to be the inerrant, authoritative and divinely inspired word of an infallible all knowing all powerful creator of the universe. That sets the bar a bit higher so I would expect such a book to mean star when it says star and not something other than a star. Also, a shooting star is a transient thing. It flashes for a moment and is then gone. It's not something you can count either in whole or in part like you can the stars that appear stationary in the sky. So when Revelation 12:4 references a third of the stars of heaven being cast to the earth that would seem to indicate it's talking about those bright lights hanging over our heads and not shooting stars which randomly come and go. So what exactly would it mean to say a third of the shooting stars of heaven will be cast to the earth? Does that mean a third of all the meteors out there will crash into our planet? That would be quite remarkable. Or should we just ignore the quantity noted in scripture and assume it would amount to nothing more than a meteor shower? And if so what is so miraculous about that?

I've often heard christians say the bible says what it means and means what it says. Except when you point out things like this. Then it becomes a game of what the bible meant to say to escape the simplest explanation that this was written in a time when people didn't understand what stars actually were and it shows. Non-believers in many cases were believers who reached a point they were just no longer willing to engage in those mental gymnastics.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 29, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> You gotta remember to separate one’s disdain for God and an honest debate or lack of understanding of the Bible.
> 
> 
> “When meteoroids enter Earth's atmosphere (or that of another planet, like Mars) at high speed and burn up, the fireballs or “shooting stars” are called meteors. When a meteoroid survives a trip through the atmosphere and hits the ground, it's called a meteorite.”
> ...





> They forget that a deity such as God has the ability to put things on a level to whoever He’s dealing with


I'm not buying that ^.
Have you read the Bible? (of course I know you have).
Even today you get multiple explanations of what this or that means. By people who are supposed experts in telling you what this or that means.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 29, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> I'm not buying that ^.
> Have you read the Bible? (of course I know you have).
> Even today you get multiple explanations of what this or that means. By people who are supposed experts in telling you what this or that means.



You know what is interesting is this is coming from someone who takes Matthew 24:34 to mean Jesus could have meant any length of time, even thousands of years. Yet we know that the early christians expected his return would be much sooner. They expected it because Jesus said it. And when it didn't happen in the time frame they expected it became an issue. We know that because it's addressed in 2 Peter chapter 3. So if he had the ability to put things on the level of the people he was dealing with then why were they so misled?


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 29, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> That last part is true, and I don’t claim it’s right around the corner. For all I know it’s 10,000 years away.



I don't know if humans will still be around 10,000 years from now. But if they are, christianity will have long since been an abandoned religion.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 29, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> I don't know if humans will still be around 10,000 years from now. But if they are, christianity will have long since been an abandoned religion.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 29, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> I'm not buying that ^.
> Have you read the Bible? (of course I know you have).
> Even today you get multiple explanations of what this or that means. By people who are supposed experts in telling you what this or that means.


You shouldn’t buy it because you said you’re not normal ?

So the stars of heaven falling to the earth is confusing and because the stars are bigger than the earth it’s impossible and therefore evident that it’s not the inherent Word of God?

Interestingly, I don’t get hung up on multiple interpretations because I know every interpretation isn’t correct. And because the Bible isn’t that complicated to me I don’t get insecure trying to figure out who’s right or wrong.

Neutrality speaking - if there’s this deity such as God that created all this, He would most certainly have the ability to speak to an illiterate on their level and the intelligent on theirs. A person forming their own opinion is no indication that a deity is neither there or isn’t.

Writers 2000 years ago wrote about stars falling to the earth. What if this deity said it was a star and meant for it to be a type off star? Just because science discovered it in 1959 as a meteorite makes the Bible and that deity wrong? Those scientists could have agreed to call it a green plum instead, that only means it’s what scientist agreed to term it.

Most Bible scholars explain it as a meteor shower.

I assume when this soil we live on was discovered, that too makes the Bible wrong because it wasn’t part of their entire world 2,000 years ago?


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 29, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> You know what is interesting is this is coming from someone who takes Matthew 24:34 to mean Jesus could have meant any length of time, even thousands of years. Yet we know that the early christians expected his return would be much sooner. They expected it because Jesus said it. And when it didn't happen in the time frame they expected it became an issue. We know that because it's addressed in 2 Peter chapter 3. So if he had the ability to put things on the level of the people he was dealing with then why were they so misled?



They didn’t expect a lot of things the way they happened.  The “believers” of today will likely also misinterpret His second coming and be caught off again by it. The reason is that a relationship with God requires effort and seeking of truth, not a reliance on others to provide it for you. Many back then even refused to believe, just like you. Sadly, it doesn’t change the truth, just your acceptance of it.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 29, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> If we were talking about a normal book it might not be reasonable to expect scientific accuracy of a book written in antiquity. But that's not what we are talking about is it?
> This is a book christians claim to be the inerrant, authoritative and divinely inspired word of an infallible all knowing all powerful creator of the universe. That sets the bar a bit higher so I would expect such a book to mean star when it says star and not something other than a star. Also, a shooting star is a transient thing. It flashes for a moment and is then gone. It's not something you can count either in whole or in part like you can the stars that appear stationary in the sky. So when Revelation 12:4 references a third of the stars of heaven being cast to the earth that would seem to indicate it's talking about those bright lights hanging over our heads and not shooting stars which randomly come and go. So what exactly would it mean to say a third of the shooting stars of heaven will be cast to the earth? Does that mean a third of all the meteors out there will crash into our planet? That would be quite remarkable. Or should we just ignore the quantity noted in scripture and assume it would amount to nothing more than a meteor shower? And if so what is so miraculous about that?
> 
> I've often heard christians say the bible says what it means and means what it says. Except when you point out things like this. Then it becomes a game of what the bible meant to say to escape the simplest explanation that this was written in a time when people didn't understand what stars actually were and it shows. Non-believers in many cases were believers who reached a point they were just no longer willing to engage in those mental gymnastics.



If you have a touch of sense, without hatred for the Bible, and read through the remainder of the chapter, you will see that there’s a bit more going on there.  Again, I don’t get literal stars when I read that.  There is a blessing given to those who study and seek understanding from Revelation, and I feel blessed by studying it fairly often for years.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 29, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> If you have a touch of sense, without hatred for the Bible, and read through the remainder of the chapter, you will see that there’s a bit more going on there.  Again, I don’t get literal stars when I read that.  There is a blessing given to those who study and seek understanding from Revelation, and I feel blessed by studying it fairly often for years.


I don't have any hatred for the Bible at all. But Revelations reads to me like John was on an acid trip or doing shrooms when he wrote it.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> You shouldn’t buy it because you said you’re not normal ?
> 
> So the stars of heaven falling to the earth is confusing and because the stars are bigger than the earth it’s impossible and therefore evident that it’s not the inherent Word of God?
> 
> ...


Sounds more like believers move the goalposts more than science does.

Who is the Go To authority on what is Literal/Figurative,  meant for the Illiterates/Intelligent , who is able to decipher what god inspired a writer to purposely explain accurately and what to write in error?

And regarding 1/3 of the "stars" swept from Heaven....
Is this great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads a Robin with the power to hurl 1/3 of the rock collection at Earth or.....will only the smart people with a touch of sense know about these Dragons?


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 29, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> If you have a touch of sense, without hatred for the Bible, and read through the remainder of the chapter, you will see that there’s a bit more going on there.  Again, I don’t get literal stars when I read that.  There is a blessing given to those who study and seek understanding from Revelation, and I feel blessed by studying it fairly often for years.


Here’s another one from Daniel if folks use the entire Bible, abs possibility wouldn’t make themselves stand out line red light in the dark claiming something is wrong with scripture.

“Knowledge will be on the increase”. 

Based on that I’d expect us to discover what most folks refer to as a shooting star is technically a meteorite.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 29, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I don't have any hatred for the Bible at all. But Revelations reads to me like John was on an acid trip or doing shrooms when he wrote it.



I’m not sure it isn’t that way by design somewhat.  In many ways Revelation is the biggest behind the scenes view of the future and the past for believers. It is also majorly tampered with by Brother Jim Bob and Rev Soandso by attempting to “teach” the rest of us exactly what it all means. It’s 100% a book to be digested individually. I realize this is the wrong forum to say that in, but I’m not ashamed.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Sounds more like believers move the goalposts more than science does.
> 
> Who is the Go To authority on what is Literal/Figurative,  meant for the Illiterates/Intelligent , who is able to decipher what god inspired a writer to purposely explain accurately and what to write in error?
> 
> ...


Nope. No goal post has been moved. That’s a non believers crutch when they fail to understand it.

Dig deeper into that dragon and you’ll discover it’s not a “dragon” and never was intended to be one. It’s a nation / countries / leaders. Out of the sea is location, all countries are surrounded by water. 

A country rising up in power. It could be said the Great Eagle (USA). It doesn’t mean Eagle. No one is naive enough to believe a great eagle or even a dragon is going to rise up.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Here’s another one from Daniel if folks use the entire Bible, abs possibility wouldn’t make themselves stand out line red light in the dark claiming something is wrong with scripture.
> 
> “Knowledge will be on the increase”.
> 
> Based on that I’d expect us to discover what most folks refer to as a shooting star is technically a meteorite.


How long until our knowledge increases enough to figure out a 7 headed, red, fiery, baby eating dragon  that hurls heaven's rocks with its tail?
I mean rough estimate...years? Thousands of more years?


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Sounds more like believers move the goalposts more than science does.
> 
> Who is the Go To authority on what is Literal/Figurative,  meant for the Illiterates/Intelligent , who is able to decipher what god inspired a writer to purposely explain accurately and what to write in error?
> 
> ...



Here comes BH to save the day!  Yes!!!


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## Spotlite (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> How long until our knowledge increases enough to figure out a 7 headed, red, fiery, baby eating dragon  that hurls heaven's rocks with its tail?
> I mean rough estimate...years? Thousands of more years?


Read my last post.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Nope. No goal post has been moved. That’s a non believers crutch when they fail to understand it.
> 
> Dig deeper into that dragon and you’ll discover it’s not a “dragon” and never was intended to be one. It’s a nation / countries / leaders. Out of the sea is location, all countries are surrounded by water.
> 
> A country rising up in power. It could be said the Great Eagle (USA). It doesn’t mean Eagle. No one is naive enough to believe a great eagle or even a dragon is going to rise up.


So the nation/countries/leaders are going to use their ?tails? to swipe 1/3 of the meteors in heaven down upon earth?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Read my last post.


Oh i did


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Oh i did


Then tell us why you believe  it’s a real dragon and not what I said.


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## buckpasser (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> So the nation/countries/leaders are going to use their ?tails? to swipe 1/3 of the meteors in heaven down upon earth?



Are you slow?


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 29, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Then tell us why you believe  it’s a real dragon and not what I said.


Was the Ark a real boat? Was the Serpent a real serpent? Were the Loaves and Fishes real loaves and fishes?


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## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

> This is really enlightening lol. To trash a book and not even understand it’s stories. I’m gone to water the garden.


According to you the stories are written for the dummies and geniuses to understand. Stars are meteors and a Dragon is nations, countries and people.

And we are supposed to all know a "dragon" that really isnt a dragon who isn't really in heaven is definitely going to somehow hurl 1/3 of the meteors that are in heaven at earth.

Yeah,  having to interpret and change 90% of specific hebrew and greek words that mean one thing into meaning whatever I need them to mean to make a story work......Yep then I can understand them perfectly.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 29, 2022)

I don’t believe in attempting to spoon feed anyone the book of Revelation. That said, it’s the most popularly held belief that the chapter 12 stuff we’re being childishly naive about here, on page 6 of this thread, is not all literal.  That much is obvious. What’s maybe not quite as obvious to those looking for literal dragons, is that the star sweeping has occurred in the past.  So, read this carefully - there will most certainly not be a literal dragon, literally sweeping literal stars from the literal sky.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 29, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Was the Ark a real boat? Was the Serpent a real serpent? Were the Loves and Fishes real loaves and fishes?



Yes, maybe, yes.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Are you slow?


Compared to most guys my age and size I would do well in a 40yd sprint.  
It would be slow compared to younger guys times though.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 29, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Yes, maybe, yes.


Then, why is everything in the Bible to be taken literally, unless it disagrees with known science, in which case it is then figurative, or a parable?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I don’t believe in attempting to spoon feed anyone the book of Revelation. That said, it’s the most popularly held belief that the chapter 12 stuff we’re being childishly naive about here, on page 6 of this thread, is not all literal.  That much is obvious. What’s maybe not quite as obvious to those looking for literal dragons, is that the star sweeping has occurred in the past.  So, read this carefully - there will most certainly not be a literal dragon, literally sweeping literal stars from the literal sky.


So what shall we be looking for in the literal sense?


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 29, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Was the Ark a real boat? Was the Serpent a real serpent? Were the Loaves and Fishes real loaves and fishes?



Was the ark is described of tangible wood?

All the things you just mentioned are realistic items. A dragon isn’t. It isn’t that complicated no matter how hard you try.


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## NCHillbilly (Mar 29, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Was the ark is described of tangible wood?
> 
> All the things you just mentioned are realistic items. A dragon isn’t. It isn’t that complicated no matter how hard you try.


I don't think the Ark existed, myself. If it did, it sure didn't have two of every species of animal on earth on it.


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## Spotlite (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> So the nation/countries/leaders are going to use their ?tails? to swipe 1/3 of the meteors in heaven down upon earth?


Noons on this planet outside of nay sayers see this as a real dragon.

This is connected to the riding of the Antichrist and the nations it’s deceived. Heads and horns and tails all refer to countries, leaders, armies, tools of those armies, etc. I don’t know what 10 nuke bombs will do or even chemicals will do. I do know you can economically cripple a country with sanctions. 

I don’t have a clue of how this will be other than it’s not a real live overgrown dragon.


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## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

We are told that everything in the bible is the literal word of God until it isn't.
We are told that the Bible was written to the understanding of it's audience until it isn't. 
We just had a discussion about whether or not it will be Stars or Meteors will be coming from Heaven. Those words are among, intertwined, and part of the same story as a baby eating Dragon using its tail to hurl those meteors. Now we are to understand that the Dragon isn't really a dragon but the meteors are really going to come from Heaven. And when I ask about the words used in scripture I am asked if I am slow because nobody wants to share their understanding. I/we are just supposed  "get it" and because we don't,  we are dummies.


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## Spotlite (Mar 29, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I don't think the Ark existed, myself. If it did, it sure didn't have two of every species of animal on earth on it.


You’re right, sone had 3. What ms he’s you think that? Is it because of all the animal species we have now after years of cross breeding? I live my Cornish rock meat chickens. But I’m certain two of those were not on that boat,


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## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Noons on this planet outside of nay sayers see this as a real dragon.
> 
> This is connected to the riding of the Antichrist and the nations it’s deceived. Heads and horns and tails all refer to countries, leaders, armies, tools of those armies, etc. I don’t know what 10 nuke bombs will do or even chemicals will do. I do know you can economically cripple a country with sanctions.
> 
> I don’t have a clue of how this will be other than it’s not a real live overgrown dragon.


Spot, then according to the words in Revelation what is going to hurl 1/3 of the meteors in heaven down at the earth?
No dragon might mean no meteors.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> We are told that everything in the bible is the literal word of God until it isn't.
> We are told that the Bible was written to the understanding of it's audience until it isn't.
> We just had a discussion about whether or not it will be Stars or Meteors will be coming from Heaven. Those words are among, intertwined, and part of the same story as a baby eating Dragon using its tail to hurl those meteors. Now we are to understand that the Dragon isn't really a dragon but the meteors are really going to come from Heaven. And when I ask about the words used in scripture I am asked if I am slow because nobody wants to share their understanding. I/we are just supposed  "get it" and because we don't,  we are dummies.


Literal word of God means just that. The Bible said Jesus spoke in parables - that means most likely descriptive to make a point. 

God can tell a writer to literally write about a dragon without meaning a literal dragon.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 29, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> You’re right, sone had 3. What ms he’s you think that? Is it because of all the animal species we have now after years of cross breeding? I live my Cornish rock meat chickens. But I’m certain two of those were not on that boat,


How did ol' Noah get over here to the western hemisphere to get Smoky water shrews and Tule elk and Coues deer and howler monkeys and jaguars, and star-nosed moles, and golden jumping mice, and barren ground caribous, and southern bog lemmings, and such stuff as we are still only discovering?  There are about 8.7 million species of animals on earth. That's a lot per cubit.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Spot, then according to the words in Revelation what is going to hurl 1/3 of the meteors in heaven down at the earth?
> No dragon might mean no meteors.


It’s not going to be a physical dragon tail is all I know. As mentioned earlier, I don’t know the affects of what sone of our National warfare will do. I mean I saw 13 shooting stars one cold morning.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 29, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> You can’t really have any communication in here without it going to faith vs proof, this time sooner rather than later. Is there even a need for this subforum?  We all know where we each stand.  I was trying to bring up something new (thank you to the real participants) to think a out and actually get the thoughts of the AAs.
> 
> In here it’s the sad grumpy regulars, the occasionally visiting pimp slappers of the regulars, the open minded (that don’t stay long cause it’s boring) and the occasional drive by posters.  Is that about right?


Spot on.  This forum full of people that are full of sheep dip.  And narcissism is the coin of the realm.  Its funny though.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 29, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> How did ol' Noah get over here to the western hemisphere to get Smoky water shrews and Tule elk and Coues deer and howler monkeys and jaguars, and star-nosed moles, and golden jumping mice, and such stuff as we are still only discovering?  There are about 8.7 million species of animals on earth. That's a lot per cubit.



The Ark is the Earth and the flood is the expansion of the Universe from the Big Bang. 

Did he take two of these or just one?

https://nypost.com/2016/03/24/these-fish-can-impregnate-themselves-and-its-really-gross/


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## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Literal word of God means just that. The Bible said Jesus spoke in parables - that means most likely descriptive to make a point.
> 
> God can tell a writer to literally write about a dragon without meaning a literal dragon.


Then why write the story if nobody knows what it means?


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 29, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Spot on.  This forum full of people that are full of sheep dip.  And narcissism is the coin of the realm.  Its funny though.


I just made you mad with my Doublewide Pentecostal Tabernacle of the Living Lord song.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 29, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I just made you mad with my Doublewide Pentecostal Tabernacle of the Living Lord song.


Huh?  I love that song.  I’ve got a sense of humor about all this.


----------



## ky55 (Mar 29, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Then, why is everything in the Bible to be taken literally, unless it disagrees with known science, in which case it is then figurative, or a parable?



It has to be that way. 
Any other way wouldn’t work.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 29, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Huh?  I love that song.  I’ve got a sense of humor about all this.




You gotta learn to appreciate arguing as a spectator sport  without gettin' all mad and stuff.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> It’s not going to be a physical dragon tail is all I know. As mentioned earlier, I don’t know the affects of what sone of our National warfare will do. I mean I saw 13 shooting stars one cold morning.


The Universe is full of Asteroids/Meteors. People have seen shooting stars since people existed.

Saying the warfare actions of 7 nations will cause fire to reign from the sky is very understandable by all.
Having to interpret a very specifically descriptive version of a dragon into meaning almost anything else isn't understandable at all except to the people who think they've figured it out but cannot explain it when asked.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 29, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> You gotta learn to appreciate arguing as a spectator sport  without gettin' all mad and stuff.


If bringing your friend a bottle of whiskey when you see him is being mad at him you ought hope I stay mad.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 29, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> If bringing your friend a bottle of whiskey when you see him is being mad at him you ought hope I stay mad.


Stay mad. 

Weekend of April 16th, btw.


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## Danuwoa (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> The Universe is full of Asteroids/Meteors. People have seen shooting stars since people existed.
> 
> Saying the warfare actions of 7 nations will cause fire to reign from the sky is very understandable by all.
> Having to interpret a very specifically descriptive version of a dragon into meaning almost anything else isn't understandable at all except to the people who think they've figured it out but cannot explain it when asked.


Is the Bible the only book that uses metaphors, symbolism, and archetypes?  Are all books that use these silly and beneath a man of your intellectual prowess?  Because some people much smarter than you don’t feel that way.  Humble yourself.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 29, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Stay mad.


?


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 29, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> How did ol' Noah get over here to the western hemisphere to get Smoky water shrews and Tule elk and Coues deer and howler monkeys and jaguars, and star-nosed moles, and golden jumping mice, and barren ground caribous, and southern bog lemmings, and such stuff as we are still only discovering?  There are about 8.7 million species of animals on earth. That's a lot per cubit.


I don’t think Noah was given the task to get the animals anywhere except on the ark and off.

I guess your first task would be figuring out which species cross bred from then till now. I’m sure we’ll discover a 100 more in less than 5 years.

I realize that science believes everything they discover is at least 1 million years old.

I personally believe we’re older than most Christians believe, I highly doubt we’re as old as science thinks.


If a deity such as God could breath things into existence, why would it be impossible to for Him to breath a few million other species into existence after the flood.

Using things such as this as evidence always surprises and amazes me. Folks look for the tangible so they can believe in a deity that works mysteriously and miraculously (if it’s there)

Should it be considered? Most definitely, but again if you’re talking about a deity that’s believed to do what man considers impossible, it’s kind of silly to hang your hat on things that’s impossible for man to do. Just don’t believe.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 29, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I don’t think Noah was given the task to get the animals anywhere except on the ark and off.
> 
> I guess your first task wound be figuring out which species cross bred from then till now. I’m sure we’ll discover a 100 more in less than 5 years old.
> 
> ...


So, you believe in evolution?


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> The Universe is full of Asteroids/Meteors. People have seen shooting stars since people existed.
> 
> Saying the warfare actions of 7 nations will cause fire to reign from the sky is very understandable by all.
> Having to interpret a very specifically descriptive version of a dragon into meaning almost anything else isn't understandable at all except to the people who think they've figured it out but cannot explain it when asked.


But dragons don’t exist. Especially King Kong size dragons. No one is expected to see a reality in that description. 

A lot of men are referred to as giants in their field of work.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 29, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> If you have a touch of sense, without hatred for the Bible, and read through the remainder of the chapter, you will see that there’s a bit more going on there.  Again, I don’t get literal stars when I read that.  There is a blessing given to those who study and seek understanding from Revelation, and I feel blessed by studying it fairly often for years.



Of course you don’t get that. You have the advantage of a better understanding of what stars are than the people who wrote the Bible did. Had you read that passage back when it was written you wouldn’t have any issue at all with stars literally falling to the earth because like everyone else at that time you wouldn’t have known any better.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I don’t think Noah was given the task to get the animals anywhere except on the ark and off.
> 
> I guess your first task wound be figuring out which species cross bred from then till now. I’m sure we’ll discover a 100 more in less than 5 years old.
> 
> ...


On that note the bible should say Anything you can think of, anyway you need make it work, that is how it happened because God did it and made it work.

Nothing else needed. No need for specific stories or details.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 29, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> So, you believe in evolution?


Yes I do. I believe we see evolution daily. What I don’t believe is evolution itself has the answer to our origin.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> On that note the bible should say Anything you can think of, anyway you need make it work, that is how it happened because God did it and made it work.
> 
> Nothing else needed. No need for specific stories or details.


Not exactly. Scripture says that God is a spirit, and it also says God has revealed these things to us in the spirit.

That tells me I ain’t going to find it in another man’s work.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Is the Bible the only book that uses metaphors, symbolism, and archetypes?  Are all books that use these silly and beneath a man of your intellectual prowess?  Because some people much smarter than you don’t feel that way.  Humble yourself.


None of those books are supposed to be from a god.
Enlighten yourself.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> None of those books are supposed to be from a god.
> Enlighten yourself.


What difference does that make?  I’m as enlightened as you are.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> But dragons don’t exist. Especially King Kong size dragons. No one is expected to see a reality in that description.
> 
> A lot of men are referred to as giants in their field of work.


 Regarding a God that can create anything are you sure that a kong sized ,7 headed, red, fiery Dragon does not exist in Heaven?
Expected Reality!?!?!?!?!?
See where I am going?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> What difference does that make?  I’m as enlightened as you are.


Those are traits, qualities and styles of men. It shows in their works.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Those are traits, qualities and styles of men. It shows in their works.


We were talking about Revelation.  John wrote Revelation.  John was a man.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 29, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> I don't know if humans will still be around 10,000 years from now. But if they are, christianity will have long since been an abandoned religion.


I can see parts of it morphing into something else that noone at that time would really recognize as "Christianity". Its already morphing very slowly but very surely.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Then why write the story if nobody knows what it means?



Not nobody. You.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> We were talking about Revelation.  John wrote Revelation.  John was a man.


Men wrote it all didnt they?


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Men wrote it all didnt they?


Yeah.  You said God wrote it.  I didn’t say that.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Not nobody. You.


Listen,  I understand that you can't explain it in ways that make sense. I realize that you understand it differently than Spotlite and 2 billion others.
If you want to derail the thread with the personal stuff go right ahead. If you want to teach,  teach. If you want to explain,  explain. If you want to tell us you're personal interpretations go for it. If you want to pretend like you know what the heck is meant by a 7 headed red fiery dragon and many many many other things without explaining it and instead act like everyone but me knows that is perfect.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Yeah.  You said God wrote it.  I didn’t say that.


I am going off what I was taught and told by Clergy and by believers in here.
I'll ask you your opinion.  Is God responsible for the contents of the Bible? Did he choose men to write what he wanted written? Is Scripture the Word of God?


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 29, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> You shouldn’t buy it because you said you’re not normal ?
> 
> So the stars of heaven falling to the earth is confusing and because the stars are bigger than the earth it’s impossible and therefore evident that it’s not the inherent Word of God?
> 
> ...





> So the stars of heaven falling to the earth is confusing and because the stars are bigger than the earth it’s impossible and therefore evident that it’s not the inherent Word of God?


Its only confusing because we now know thats not possible. Im sure 2000 years ago it wasnt even questioned.


> And because the Bible isn’t that complicated to me I don’t get insecure trying to figure out who’s right or wrong.


Yes, you have found what works for you. I dont have a problem with that at all.


> Neutrality speaking - if there’s this deity such as God that created all this, He would most certainly have the ability to speak to an illiterate on their level and the intelligent on theirs. A person forming their own opinion is no indication that a deity is neither there or isn’t.


I would agree it isnt an indication whether a deity is there or not.
However all the various demoninations and opinions (even within the same denomination) is an indication the the Bible is not the inherent work of God.  Why? Because -


> He would most certainly have the ability to speak to an illiterate on their level and the intelligent on theirs





> Most Bible scholars explain it as a meteor shower.


How else could they explain it? Certainly cant claim they are literally stars.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I am going off what I was taught and told by Clergy and by believers in here.
> I'll ask you your opinion.  Is God responsible for the contents of the Bible? Did he choose men to write what he wanted written? Is Scripture the Word of God?


I believe Scripture is the word of God.  I can’t prove that it is so there’s no need to demand proof.  Did God choose men to write it?  I don’t know.

I don’t know why any of this bothers you.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 29, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I’m not sure it isn’t that way by design somewhat.  In many ways Revelation is the biggest behind the scenes view of the future and the past for believers. It is also majorly tampered with by Brother Jim Bob and Rev Soandso by attempting to “teach” the rest of us exactly what it all means. It’s 100% a book to be digested individually. I realize this is the wrong forum to say that in, but I’m not ashamed.


Why is this the wrong forum to say that in?
Its probably the only one you can without being told you are going to he11.
Its also pretty much my opinion of the entire bible.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Regarding a God that can create anything are you sure that a kong sized ,7 headed, red, fiery Dragon does not exist in Heaven?
> Expected Reality!?!?!?!?!?
> See where I am going?


In that case I guess He could do just that.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I believe Scripture is the word of God.  I can’t prove that it is so there’s no need to demand proof.  Did God choose men to write it?  I don’t know.
> 
> I don’t know why any of this bothers you.


It would stand to reason that if Scripture is the Word of God, God wrote it by his own Will through whatever means necessary. 
I dont know why you insinuate your opinions as facts and run with it. None of this bothers me. It fascinates me.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 29, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Here comes BH to save the day!  Yes!!!


Aw c'mon dont drop to that level.
You ask good questions and give good opinions etc. worth thinking about.
I hope you stick to that.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> It would stand to reason that if Scripture is the Word of God, God wrote it by his own Will through whatever means necessary.
> I dont know why you insinuate your opinions as facts and run with it. None of this bothers me. It fascinates me.


I don’t know how you read my post and somehow turned it into me insinuating my opinions as facts.  I said I believe scripture is God’s word but can’t prove it.  I said I didn’t know if God chose men to write it.  What did I run with again?  What opinions did I insinuate as facts?  Talk about fascinating.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 29, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Its only confusing because we now know thats not possible. Im sure 2000 years ago it wasnt even questioned.
> 
> Yes, you have found what works for you. I dont have a problem with that at all.
> 
> ...


Can’t argue with your reply but will touch on one area; various denominations and options even within the same denomination. 

Don’t forget about human nature and man following the lust of his own heart / flesh.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> In that case I guess He could do just that.


I wanted you to understand that line of thought that both sides use.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I don’t know how you read my post and somehow turned it into me insinuating my opinions as facts.  I said I believe scripture is God’s word but can’t prove it.  I said I didn’t know if God chose men to write it.  What did I run with again?  What opinions did I insinuate as facts?  Talk about fascinating.


You insinuated that I am bothered. 
It had nothing to do with God, his word, or your interpretation,  knowledge or beliefs in a spiritual or religious matter.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 29, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Why is this the wrong forum to say that in?
> Its probably the only one you can without being told you are going to he11.
> Its also pretty much my opinion of the entire bible.



Well, I just suspect it would be taken wrong, like it was from BH.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> You insinuated that I am bothered.
> It had nothing to do with God, his word, or your interpretation,  knowledge or beliefs in a spiritual or religious matter.


Oh that.  Well it’s clear to me that you are bothered by it.  You spend an awful lot of time posturing about needing proof to believe it on the basis of the image you want as a critical thinker.  All hogwash.  You do t apply that same standard to other things you believe without understanding.  The problem is that you are bothered by something in Christianity so you choose not to believe it because you don’t want it to be true.  It has nothing to do with proof or a lack of it or deep thinking on your part.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 29, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Aw c'mon dont drop to that level.
> You ask good questions and give good opinions etc. worth thinking about.
> I hope you stick to that.



Just having a little fun!  BH comes in like the old wrestlers I use to watch as a kid.  Running wide open with this fist cocked.  Similar pain inflicted too.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Well, I just suspect it would be taken wrong, like it was from BH.


I take it differently than you. Neither of us are any more right or wrong than the other.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 29, 2022)

I doubt I’ll ever try to help this subforum out again with another thread.  I’m truly not trying to stick someone’s nose in anything or prove my point. I would just like discussion but it quickly devolves into a puddle of excrement, just like every debate thread here.  If the believers were to evacuate this thing, best I can tell there would be roughly a half dozen like minded A’s and one that I suspect is on the fence between A and the other A.  I don’t think there would be much to do here for y’all but pat each other on the back about disbelief, which is truly sad when it relates to any topic and I don’t think that would be too enjoyable.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I take it differently than you. Neither of us are any more right or wrong than the other.



I’m so glad to see you admit that. Your posts are generally just condescending towards God, the Bible and believers, no matter how the discussion begins.  That’s not true for most of the other participants.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Well, I just suspect it would be taken wrong, like it was from BH.


I take it differently than you


Danuwoa said:


> Oh that.  Well it’s clear to me that you are bothered by it.  You spend an awful lot of time posturing about needing proof to believe it on the basis of the image you want as a critical thinker.  All hogwash.  You do t apply that same standard to other things you believe without understanding.  The problem is that you are bothered by something in Christianity so you choose not to believe it because you don’t want it to be true.  It has nothing to do with proof or a lack of it or deep thinking on your part.


Yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah, you’ve given your critique of me a dozen times already. We get it. You dont like me and insinuate some conclusions as to why I am here,  how I feel and in and on.
I have not aked for a shred of proof tonight. So you can drop that shtick.
Now, obviously with your years in practice as a psychologist you are able to pinpoint what bothers me, how I conduct myself regarding other things and whatever other lump of horse plops you can convince yourself about me. I don't care that is how you have to roll to act like you are someone of high intellect and insight.
If you are here to talk about AAA stuff great. If you are here for virtual couch sessions and tarot card readings you clicked on the wrong link. 
I have to behave in here so I do. I follow the rules. When I need your often repeated personality and psychology services I'll look you up.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I take it differently than you
> 
> Yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah, you’ve given your critique of me a dozen times already. We get it. You dont like me and insinuate some conclusions as to why I am here,  how I feel and in and on.
> I have not aked for a shred of proof tonight. So you can drop that shtick.
> ...



It’s not just him that sees you that way, and it’s not most of the AAs here.  You are all but wearing a sign to broadcast your condition.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I take it differently than you
> 
> Yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah, you’ve given your critique of me a dozen times already. We get it. You dont like me and insinuate some conclusions as to why I am here,  how I feel and in and on.
> I have not aked for a shred of proof tonight. So you can drop that shtick.
> ...


You take it oddly personal.  I don’t portray myself as the smartest guy in the room.  I freely admit I’m just an average guy.  And it’s not your place to tell me what I am allowed to talk about here.  This isn’t your forum and you’re not a mod.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I’m so glad to see you admit that. Your posts are generally just condescending towards God, the Bible and believers, no matter how the discussion begins.  That’s not true for most of the other participants.


This isnt a Pro God, Pro Bible  and Pro Believer forum. That is above and I do not try to discuss it there. I stay within the boundaries and rules. 
I try to put things in another light. It's my style. No different than yours differs from all others also.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> This isnt a Pro God, Pro Bible  and Pro Believer forum. That is above and I do not try to discuss it there. I stay within the boundaries and rules.
> I try to put things in another light. It's my style. No different than yours differs from all others also.


It’s not anti God either.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> You take it oddly personal.  I don’t portray myself as the smartest guy in the room.  I freely admit I’m just an average guy.  And it’s not your place to tell me what I am allowed to talk about here.  This isn’t your forum and you’re not a mod.


Bravo Dan! Now remember that when you are on full bravado mode trying to tell me what I should or shouldn't say, how you think I think and when you try to insinuate how or what I think of myself intelligence wise.
You gift me those titles. I don't impose them.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> It’s not anti God either.


It is, and I quote:
A place to discuss why you believe what you believe or why you don't.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Bravo Dan! Now remember that when you are on full bravdo mode trying to tell me what I should or shouldn't say, how you think I think and when you try to insinuate how or what I think of myself intelligence wise.
> You gift me those titles. I don't impose them.


I’m sure that made sense in your head.

Puff up all you want but it’s just true.  You talk about needing proof even if you haven’t tonight and make an issue out of there being no proof and about Christianity being invented by men etc. and that makes it impossible for a critical thinker to live their life based on a collection of books a few thousand years old consolidated into a single book.  But none of that is consistent with how you receive other things written by men or passed along to you by men that you can’t prove or understand.

You believe in the constitution of the United States and believe people should fight and die to uphold it.  It was written by men.  And you don’t really understand much of it.  You might have a macro understanding of it but it’s not like you’re a constitutional lawyer.  So you’re willing for people to fight and die over ideas you don’t really understand written down by men a few hundred years ago but you claim to not be able to understand why a thinking person would live their life according to the Bible.  Not very consistent.

You and others like you are quick to say you believe in things that are provable like science and that is what you need in order to accept something because that’s what thinking people do.  But what do you really understand about science if you’re honest?  Not much.  You’ve got no idea how your computer works.  Not really.  Your iPhone either.  You might have some sort of layman’s understanding of what somebody else has told you or that you read but you don’t really understand it.  You’re just taking their word for it.  And you have no problem with that.

When you go to the doctor you don’t really understand much of what he tells you.   But you take his word for it and trust him with your life without any proof of anything he says because there is no way for you to know if he’s telling you the truth or not.  You believe him because that’s about all you have to go on and in the end you want to believe him because you know that you have no idea.  He’s just a man.  And the science of medicine is relatively new in historical terms,  but beyond that it has been politicized in the era of Covid.  But you take what he says on faith without being able to prove or understand any of it because your knowledge is too limited to do anything else.

You believe the things you want to believe and you don’t care about proof and you accept without understanding.  You do it all the time.  You believe things you see on the internet that you can’t possibly prove or know whether or not the person who typed them knows what they are talking about.  You believe it because you want to.  But you make a big showing and make a lot of noise about how you supposedly can’t believe the Bible because it can’t be confirmed or proven.  You dont want to believe it.  It has nothing to do with thinking or proof.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> It is, and I quote:
> A place to discuss why you believe what you believe or why you don't.


Doesn’t sound very anti God even going by the loosest of interpretations.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Doesn’t sound very anti God even going by the loosest of interpretations.


Why someone doesn't believe covers that.
Agnotics and Atheists each have their views on a possible God, no God, If a God, Which God, and anti one or the other is no different than a believer in say the God of Abraham telling a believer in another God that particular God is false, the work of a devil or some other Anti statement.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Why someone doesn't believe covers that.
> Agnotics and Atheists each have their views on a possible God, no God, If a God, Which God, and anti one or the other is no different than a believer in say the God of Abraham telling a believer in another God that particular God is false, the work of a devil or some other Anti statement.


Lol.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 29, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> I can see parts of it morphing into something else that noone at that time would really recognize as "Christianity". Its already morphing very slowly but very surely.



Yeah it’s been evolving since the beginning but at this point it’s dying out at an accelerating clip. Ten thousand years is a massive time scale civilizationally speaking, especially at the speed of change we have reached.


----------



## furtaker (Mar 29, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Oh that.  Well it’s clear to me that you are bothered by it.  You spend an awful lot of time posturing about needing proof to believe it on the basis of the image you want as a critical thinker.  All hogwash.  You do t apply that same standard to other things you believe without understanding.  The problem is that you are bothered by something in Christianity so you choose not to believe it because you don’t want it to be true.  It has nothing to do with proof or a lack of it or deep thinking on your part.


And with that you hit the nail on the head. If I were looking for proof and I spent as much time in here as the "atheists" do, I would have given up a loooooong time ago. They know there's no proof. You either believe it or you don't. They don't want proof. They just hope God doesn't exist because if he does then he's a total party-pooper in their little "I am God" world.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

> ="Danuwoa, post: 13322479, member: 17576"]I’m sure that made sense in your head.


Yep



> ="Danuwoa, post: 13322479, member: 17576"]Puff up all you want but it’s just true.  You talk about needing proof even if you haven’t tonight and make an issue out of there being no proof and about Christianity being invented by men etc. and that makes it impossible for a critical thinker to live their life based on a collection of books a few thousand years old consolidated into a single book.  But none of that is consistent with how you receive other things written by men or passed along to you by men that you can’t prove or understand.


I understand how the world as I've come to know it works. I trust in mankind, science, medicine and everything else to varying degrees. Some much more than others. Some I understand,  some I understand less. Lots I do not understand at all. I use my own senses, experiences to freely guide me in the ones I have some control over. I am fine with going with the best answer based off of a more likely than not scenario. With a willingness to change my mind if and when more information becomes available.



> ="Danuwoa, post: 13322479, member: 17576"] You believe in the constitution of the United States and believe people should fight and die to uphold it.  It was written by men.  And you don’t really understand much of it.  You might have a macro understanding of it but it’s not like you’re a constitutional lawyer.  So you’re willing for people to fight and die over ideas you don’t really understand written down by men a few hundred years ago but you claim to not be able to understand why a thinking person would live their life according to the Bible.  Not very consistent.


Great speech. I've addressed my trust and limits in man above.
At the end though you assert that I've claimed to not to be able to understand why a thinkng person would live their life according to the Bible.
THAT is your way of trying to make something that wasn't said or implied as if it was.
I was a "thinking person" that lived my life according to the Bible. I never said anyone who does is bad, wrong or dumb.
You assume I do and try to sneak it in there.



> ="Danuwoa, post: 13322479, member: 17576"]  You and others like you are quick to say you believe in things that are provable like science and that is what you need in order to accept something because that’s what thinking people do.  But what do you really understand about science if you’re honest?  Not much.  You’ve got no idea how your computer works.  Not really.  Your iPhone either.  You might have some sort of layman’s understanding of what somebody else has told you or that you read but you don’t really understand it.  You’re just taking their word for it.  And you have no problem with that.


I have already addressed this. I have my understanding of my own limits and the limits of mankind. Nobody is telling me science loves me and anything is absolute.



> ="Danuwoa, post: 13322479, member: 17576"]  When you go to the doctor you don’t really understand much of what he tells you.   But you take his word for it and trust him with your life without any proof of anything he says because there is no way for you to know if he’s telling you the truth or not.  You believe him because that’s about all you have to go on and in the end you want to believe him because you know that you have no idea.  He’s just a man.  And the science of medicine is relatively new in historical terms,  but beyond that it has been politicized in the era of Covid.  But you take what he says on faith without being able to prove or understand any of it because your knowledge is too limited to do anything else.
> 
> You believe the things you want to believe and you don’t care about proof and you accept without understanding.  You do it all the time.  You believe things you see on the internet that you can’t possibly prove or know whether or not the person who typed them knows what they are talking about.  You believe it because you want to.  But you make a big showing and make a lot of noise about how you supposedly can’t believe the Bible because it can’t be confirmed or proven.  You dont want to believe it.  It has nothing to do with thinking or proof.


There ya go again, a half way decent point (which is the same thing said for 2 paragraphs just different examples) then off you go with a self opinionated conclusion as if you are more capable of what you say I can't be.

"Big showing".....
I've been a contributing regular in here for years. I can talk the pros and cons.
I don't roll in to shoot off about someone and without addressing anything on topic.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Lol.


That or an emoji is the extent of your apologetics.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Yep
> 
> 
> I understand how the world as I've come to know it works. I trust in mankind, science, medicine and everything else to varying degrees. Some much more than others. Some I understand,  some I understand less. Lots I do not understand at all. I use my own senses, experiences to freely guide me in the ones I have some control over. I am fine with going with the best answer based off of a more likely than not scenario. With a willingness to change my mind if and when more information becomes available.
> ...


Great speech. I've addressed my trust and limits in man above.
At the end though you assert that I've claimed to not to be able to understand why a thinkng person would live their life according to the Bible.
THAT is your way of trying to make something that wasn't said or implied as if it was.
I was a "thinking person" that lived my life according to the Bible. I never said anyone who does is bad, wrong or dumb.
You assume I do and try to sneak it in there.

QUOTE="Danuwoa, post: 13322479, member: 17576"]  You and others like you are quick to say you believe in things that are provable like science and that is what you need in order to accept something because that’s what thinking people do.  But what do you really understand about science if you’re honest?  Not much.  You’ve got no idea how your computer works.  Not really.  Your iPhone either.  You might have some sort of layman’s understanding of what somebody else has told you or that you read but you don’t really understand it.  You’re just taking their word for it.  And you have no problem with that.[/quote]
I have already addressed this. I have my understanding of my own limits and the limits of mankind. Nobody is telling me science loves me and anything is absolute.

QUOTE="Danuwoa, post: 13322479, member: 17576"]  When you go to the doctor you don’t really understand much of what he tells you.   But you take his word for it and trust him with your life without any proof of anything he says because there is no way for you to know if he’s telling you the truth or not.  You believe him because that’s about all you have to go on and in the end you want to believe him because you know that you have no idea.  He’s just a man.  And the science of medicine is relatively new in historical terms,  but beyond that it has been politicized in the era of Covid.  But you take what he says on faith without being able to prove or understand any of it because your knowledge is too limited to do anything else.

You believe the things you want to believe and you don’t care about proof and you accept without understanding.  You do it all the time.  You believe things you see on the internet that you can’t possibly prove or know whether or not the person who typed them knows what they are talking about.  You believe it because you want to.  But you make a big showing and make a lot of noise about how you supposedly can’t believe the Bible because it can’t be confirmed or proven.  You dont want to believe it.  It has nothing to do with thinking or proof.[/QUOTE]
There ya go again, a half way decent point (which is the same thing said for 2 paragraphs just different examples) then off you go with a self opinionated conclusion as if you are more capable of what you say I can't be.

"Big showing".....
I've been a contributing regular in here for years. I can talk the pros and cons.
I don't roll in to shoot off about someone and without addressing anything on topic.[/QUOTE]
If there’s a misunderstanding it’s of your own doing.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> That or an emoji is the extent of your apologetics.


Never claimed to be an apologetic.  You’re doing the very thing you claim I’m guilty of doing.  Arguing things nobody ever said.  Now what?


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 29, 2022)

Trouble with the quote feature?


----------



## furtaker (Mar 29, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Trouble with the quote feature?


?


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 29, 2022)

furtaker said:


> ?


In fairness I already argued he didn’t really understand how an iPhone works but takes people’s word for it without proof.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Never claimed to be an apologetic.  You’re doing the very thing you claim I’m guilty of doing.  Arguing things nobody ever said.  Now what?


I know darn well you are not an Apologetic. That is my point. 
Just wondering what your contribution is.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Trouble with the quote feature?


Fixed


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I know darn well you are not an Apologetic. That is my point.
> Just wondering what your contribution is.


I guess it’s no different from you arguing everyday about a religion you claim to think is false.  One is no greater waste of time than the other.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Fixed


I knew you could do it.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> In fairness I already argued he didn’t really understand how an iPhone works but takes people’s word for it without proof.


In all fairness I never claimed that I wanted to know or needed to know how everything works.

If someone makes a incredible claim I surely question it. Extraordinary claims require Extraordinary evidence.

If you tell me your iphone teleports you from one place to another I will absolutely ask you to prove it.
I dont care how it does it, I wont understand how it does it. I want to see it do it.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> In all fairness I never claimed that I wanted to know or needed to know how everything works.
> 
> If someone makes a incredible claim I surely question it. Extraordinary claims require Extraordinary evidence.
> 
> ...


But you believe things typed on the internet without question.  That’s hilarious.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I guess it’s no different from you arguing everyday about a religion you claim to think is false.  One is no greater waste of time than the other.


No arguing from me. 
Big difference between discussing topics and jumping in to shoot off.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> But you believe things typed on the internet without question.  That’s hilarious.


Context


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> No arguing from me.
> Big difference between discussing topics and jumping in to shoot off.


There is?  Your posts make them look like the exact same thing.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Context


My turn to non sequitur?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> There is?  Your posts make them look like the exact same thing.


I ask people to expound upon their claims, explain their assertions in among discussing hundreds of on topic threads.

You see what you want and like for the last many posts derail threads by popping in and making it personal without adding anything to the topic at hand.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> My turn to non sequitur?


You say broadly that I read things on the internet and belive them.
Give examples.
We all have good bull snort meters. Some things can be believed, some taken with a grain of salt, and others immediately flushed.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I ask people to expound upon their claims, explain their assertions in among discussing hundreds of on topic threads.
> 
> You see what you want and like for the last many posts derail threads by popping in and making it personal without adding anything to the topic at hand.


Oh.  I never would have known That you didn’t just mouth off and argue and demand proof.  I’m glad you told me you’re actually “discussing topics”.

As for making things personal, you’re awful sensitive. Especially for a guy as needlessly confrontational as you have a habit of being.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> You say broadly that I read things on the internet and belive them.
> Give examples.
> We all have good bull snort meters. Some things can be believed, some taken with a grain of salt, and others immediately flushed.


Things you posted in the past that you seemed to think proved Christianity was bunk.  Total faith in the things you want to believe.  But I said that already.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 29, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Yeah it’s been evolving since the beginning but at this point it’s dying out at an accelerating clip. Ten thousand years is a massive time scale civilizationally speaking, especially at the speed of change we have reached.



I’m willing to bet you big money that Christianity survives and even thrives ten thousand years form now.  You in?  Haha


----------



## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Oh.  I never would have know. That you didn’t just mouth off and argue and demand proof.  I’m glad you told me you’re actually “discussing topics”.
> 
> As for making things personal, you’re awful sensitive. Especially for a guy as needlessly confrontational as you have a habit of being.


I cannot help your interpretation thinks I demand anything or think I am not discussing topics. Personally I don't care what you think.

I am not sensitive at all. I just follow the rules and figured everyone had to.
I don't go seeking you out to make a comment about you on other forums if I dont like it or do not agree with it. I'd get banned for being troll if that was my only contributions to a thread or forum. 
I'd love to have a gloves off forum. I can hang with the best of them. We don't have that option so I play by the rules. But I defend myself when I have to.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 29, 2022)

So I guess we can scratch off the list of prophecies that might get our attention the falling of stars to the earth since it’s either metaphorical or a meteor shower depending on which believers handle on the truth we accept. Already explained why wars, earthquakes, famines, etc are not particularly noteworthy as predictions that would demonstrate the christian religion true. What are we left with? Jesus coming back in the clouds? The Bible says nobody will miss that one.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Things you posted in the past that you seemed to think proved Christianity was bunk.  Total faith in the things you want to believe.  But I said that already.


I believe it is bunk as much as you believe it isn't. We both have our information.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I cannot help your interpretation thinks I demand anything or think I am not discussing topics. Personally I don't care what you think.
> 
> I am not sensitive at all. I just follow the rules and figured everyone had to.
> I don't go seeking you out to make a comment about you on other forums if I dont like it or do not agree with it. I'd get banned for being troll if that was my only contributions to a thread or forum.
> I'd love to have a gloves off forum. I can hang with the best of them. We don't have that option so I play by the rules. But I defend myself when I have to.


Have you ever considered the possibility that maybe your interpretations and perceptions are as off base as you think mine are?  Have you ever considered the possibility that you have a blind spot and maybe you aren’t as on point and unproblematic as you see yourself?  I mean it’s just something to think about.  And maybe you actually are quick to take offense with your repeated complaining about things getting “personal” and “not following the rules”.  The very fact that you talked about defending yourself in that post is amazing to me.  What are you defending yourself from?  What little I’ve said makes you feel as though you’ve been attacked?  That is unreal.  I’m sorry you feel that I’ve attacked you.  As far as I’m concerned I’ve countered your assertions and not just let you go unchallenged.  The fact that you perceive that as being attacked just underscores what I said about sensitivity.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I believe it is bunk as much as you believe it isn't. We both have our information.


That was my point exactly.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Mar 29, 2022)

buckpasser said:


>



"funny because it's true" as the saying goes? Every religion will eventually die out, just like every language, every society, every culture, every species (eventually) etc.etc.
All that Greek mythology might sound ridiculous in 2022 but in 4022 the bible might sound ridiculous.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 29, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I’m willing to bet you big money that Christianity survives and even thrives ten thousand years form now.  You in?  Haha



The trend is not moving in your favor.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Mar 29, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I’m willing to bet you big money that Christianity survives and even thrives ten thousand years form now.  You in?  Haha



Ten thousand years from now?   None of the languages, cultures, religions, or nations currently on this planet will be here 10,000 years from now.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 29, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Have you ever considered the possibility that maybe your interpretations and perceptions are as off base as you think mine are?


Yep, for many years. Do you know my Christian background?



Danuwoa said:


> Have you ever considered the possibility that you have a blind spot and maybe you aren’t as on point and unproblematic as you see yourself?  I mean it’s just something to think about.


Have you participated in or read ANY thread where I have explained (many times over the years) how I got to where I am at now?


Danuwoa said:


> And maybe you actually are quick to take offense with your repeated complaining about things getting “personal” and “not following the rules”.


I am pointing your style and contribution out. 
You can assert I am complaining but again you have to try to convince yourself.



Danuwoa said:


> The very fact that you talked about defending yourself in that post is amazing to me.  What are you defending yourself from?  What little I’ve said makes you feel as though you’ve been attacked?  That is unreal.  I’m sorry you feel that I’ve attacked you.


I didn't pop into another forum (or say a word to you here without you first lipping off) and single you out by blowing off with non topic analysis of you. You have zero skills to hold your own talking religion so you try to shoot the messenger who is saying something that hurts your beliefs. 
I don't feel attacked but you would rather run your mouth about everything what you think is wrong with me rather than stay on topic. You directly quote me or reference me. I am pointing out your ways. 
When you say something about me like the multiple assertions and insinuations that I've pointed out I reply to defend myself against your accusations. The problem is on you if you think that you are somehow explaining the history of the early church when you talk smack about me.



Danuwoa said:


> As far as I’m concerned I’ve countered your assertions and not just let you go unchallenged.  The fact that you perceive that as being attacked just underscores what I said about sensitivity.


You have not now or almost never (maybe 3 attempts over the years) offered anything close to an on topic counter or point. You replying "you think you are so intelligent...blah blah blah..." is not a refutation of a biblical point I make or an attempt to challenge my point with an on topic counter point.

You get away with pushing the rules  and I wouldn't. I am trying to get this thread back on topic. That isn't me being sensitive. It is me being respectful of the forum, the members and mods.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 29, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I doubt I’ll ever try to help this subforum out again with another thread.  I’m truly not trying to stick someone’s nose in anything or prove my point. I would just like discussion but it quickly devolves into a puddle of excrement, just like every debate thread here.  If the believers were to evacuate this thing, best I can tell there would be roughly a half dozen like minded A’s and one that I suspect is on the fence between A and the other A.  I don’t think there would be much to do here for y’all but pat each other on the back about disbelief, which is truly sad when it relates to any topic and I don’t think that would be too enjoyable.


We readily admit that when Christians/religious folks dont participate that this forum is as lively as a cemetery.
And thats precisely because we arent interested in patting each others back about disbelief.
I would request you just step over the excrement and continue asking good questions.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 29, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> We readily admit that when Christians/religious folks dont participate that this forum is as lively as a cemetery.
> And thats precisely because we arent interested in patting each others back about disbelief.
> I would request you just step over the excrement and continue asking good questions.



Good answers to the OP have been given. If they head for the exits that’s unfortunate but it’s on them.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Yep, for many years. Do you know my Christian background?
> 
> 
> Have you participated in or read ANY thread where I have explained (many times over the years) how I got to where I am at now?
> ...


PM sent


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 29, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Good answers to the OP have been given. If they head for the exits that’s unfortunate but it’s on them.


I agree.
I would just prefer people didnt head for the exits.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 30, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> PM sent


Dealt with.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 30, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Dealt with.


?


----------



## Big7 (Mar 30, 2022)

My thoughts are very simple.

I believe in the Holy Trinity.
They are one and the same and equal according to original Christian Doctrine.
The Father
The Son
The Holy Sprit

Whatever has happened, big bang, man evolving from apes and whatever else brought us to where we are as human beings and anything that has or will happen, past, present and future.....
All human and animal life could have evolved from a single cell amoeba...WHATEVER...

GOD CAUSED IT TO HAPPEN.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 30, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> The trend is not moving in your favor.



I say it is. It’s predicted by my religion that the path of the world will stay away from worship, Godliness, and Christ. It will even appear near the end that you’d won the bet, but then your knee will bow too.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 30, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Ten thousand years from now?   None of the languages, cultures, religions, or nations currently on this planet will be here 10,000 years from now.



To use the thought process of the AAs: prove it.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 30, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> "funny because it's true" as the saying goes? Every religion will eventually die out, just like every language, every society, every culture, every species (eventually) etc.etc.
> All that Greek mythology might sound ridiculous in 2022 but in 4022 the bible might sound ridiculous.



Nah, funny ‘cause it’s stupid.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 30, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> We readily admit that when Christians/religious folks dont participate that this forum is as lively as a cemetery.
> And thats precisely because we arent interested in patting each others back about disbelief.
> I would request you just step over the excrement and continue asking good questions.



I really do appreciate your honest responses Walt.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 30, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I say it is. It’s predicted by my religion that the path of the world will stay away from worship, Godliness, and Christ. It will even appear near the end that you’d won the bet, but then your knee will bow too.



That’s been the claim for the last 2,000 years and just like all those believers over that time you’ll go to your grave before you see Jesus come riding out of the clouds. If he ever existed at all he’s long since dead and he’s never coming back.  That’s just the reality, your protestations to the contrary notwithstanding.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 30, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> That’s been the claim for the last 2,000 years and just like all those believers over that time you’ll go to your grave before you see Jesus come riding out of the clouds. If he ever existed at all he’s long since dead and he’s never coming back.  That’s just the reality, your protestations to the contrary notwithstanding.



Back to my initial response to your nonsense; wanna bet?  See where this goes?  You can just copy and paste your response and we can just go on until one of us dies if you want. Your knee will bow.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 30, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Back to my initial response to your nonsense; wanna bet?  See where this goes?  You can just copy and paste your response and we can just go on until one of us dies if you want. Your knee will bow.



Two thousand years ago:“You’ll see! Just wait!”

Today: “You’ll see! Just wait! It might not be for another 10,000 years but your knee will bow! Just wait!”

Uh huh. Meanwhile you’ll go to your grave saying that. Just like all those christians before you. You think christians who lived through the plague wiping out a third of the population of Europe didn’t believe they were seeing the end times? Or those who faced complete destruction at the hands of invading muslims or mongols? Or numerous others who endured unfathomable hardships in the past two millennia? Yet life went on however pleasant or unpleasant. “But this time is different!” Sure it is. Just like all the times before.

A broken clock is right twice a day. Christians haven’t been right in 2,000 years. Given that track record you’d think a little humility was in order but it seems that’s an unreasonably high expectation.


----------



## Israel (Mar 30, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Two thousand years ago:“You’ll see! Just wait!”
> 
> Today: “You’ll see! Just wait! It might not be for another 10,000 years but your knee will bow! Just wait!”
> 
> ...



There's much here I can agree with, except:



> Just like all those christians before you.



Many have tried to accurately give times and dates...and you gotta admit, that would be a pretty big "gothca" or "I told you so".

But anyone that has tasted the reality of God's judgment upon themselves are not gonna be much in that business. Yes, it's a line often too easily crossed, and probably far too often. 

But we might also admit that vindictiveness is not limited to any one particular sect, religion, or even peoples. There's a certain amount of needing to be right that involves a frank conquering of others in its pursuit.

My battle is always a bit closer to home than I may often care to either realize or admit.

It's really not that time has been granted to me to show any prowess, but rather granted for repentance.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 30, 2022)

Israel said:


> There's much here I can agree with, except:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Whether they tried to predict a date or not the expectation has always been "soon". There's plenty of scripture that sets that expectation. The disappointment of not seeing that expectation fulfilled was already setting in when second Peter was written.

If someone says pigs will soon sprout wings and fly to the moon that seems rather unlikely in the first place. If two thousand years pass and it still hasn't happened the people still claiming it have to lose a little credibility.


----------



## Israel (Mar 30, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Whether they tried to predict a date or not the expectation has always been "soon". There's plenty of scripture that sets that expectation. The disappointment of not seeing that expectation fulfilled was already setting in when second Peter was written.
> 
> If someone says pigs will soon sprout wings and fly to the moon that seems rather unlikely in the first place. If two thousand years pass and it still hasn't happened the people still claiming it have to lose a little credibility.


There are many things for which I have had to adjust my notions of time and the relative-ness of soon, later, not for a long while, etc.

For me whole adjustments of understandings (even what I presumed most basic) have proceeded in my following after Jesus Christ.

Yes, I was as _puzzled as any man might be_ (or provoked to consider) the many things said that on their face seem almost mutually exclusive if not paradoxical. Things like "Therefore be ye also ready for the son of man comes at an hour you do not expect."

Not merely who (or why one) could say such a thing as an instruction, but how could any man advise another to "be ready" for what he cannot expect...and is no less told so? There were many things (actually everything) for which I needed informing, and still do.

Speculations must give way to some certainty of convictions if, and when, a man discovers life depends upon them. Till then, though, it's easy to understand why speculations are such fun to _play with._

If I can speak to you of even the most common things. In a little more than a month I will be 71. People "warned me" how fast it will all seem to go, and I am sure that then, _at best, _my attitude, if not response was a condescending head nod at those folks who simply appeared assigned to being _the aged._

There were _old people_...and there was me...and I _was not _one of them. As if they only were there, and seemed always so...as _the old folks._

Would it surprise you that even now (and I know I am not the eldest on these boards) when I read what I wrote "I will be 71" (Lord willing) there's a part, a rather large part of me that says "how did that even happen?"

Yesterday I was dreaming of having a driver's license and what that would be like.

Never for a moment did I ever dream what having a kidney stone would be like. And now I don't have to dream about "what that would be like".

But these are merely natural matters.

The Lord conquered me to my knowing at 17, but even that I now see as me merely using a metric reference that is in rapid deterioration before me...time.

But I know it is not, nor was it time itself that_ gave itself away _to its own deprecation.

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye"...will seem as long or as brief as it is assigned.

And at any assigned moment a man may appear before his maker...whether in his body or out of it.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 30, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Whether they tried to predict a date or not the expectation has always been "soon". There's plenty of scripture that sets that expectation. The disappointment of not seeing that expectation fulfilled was already setting in when second Peter was written.
> 
> If someone says pigs will soon sprout wings and fly to the moon that seems rather unlikely in the first place. If two thousand years pass and it still hasn't happened the people still claiming it have to lose a little credibility.



So you should have no problem by now (2000 years later) taking a stand on just how certain you are on being right? What is it now - 90%, 99%, 99.999999999999999%, 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999%?

Why not 100%? What are you holding out on for 100%?


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 30, 2022)

Israel said:


> There are many things for which I have had to adjust my notions of time and the relative-ness of soon, later, not for a long while, etc.
> 
> For me whole adjustments of understandings (even what I presumed most basic) have proceeded in my following after Jesus Christ.
> 
> Yes, I was as _puzzled as any man might be_ (or provoked to consider) the many things said that on their face seem almost mutually exclusive if not paradoxical. Things like "Therefore be ye also ready for the son of man comes at an hour you do not expect."



Many claims of the bible are puzzling if you believe them to be true.





Israel said:


> Not merely who (or why one) could say such a thing as an instruction, but how could any man advise another to "be ready" for what he cannot expect...and is no less told so? There were many things (actually everything) for which I needed informing, and still do.
> 
> Speculations must give way to some certainty of convictions if, and when, a man discovers life depends upon them. Till then, though, it's easy to understand why speculations are such fun to _play with._
> 
> ...



I'm not as far down the track as you but I can relate. I remember years ago my father helping Brother Brown set a fence post on his farm. One so sturdy Brother Brown said it would be there until "Gabriel blows his trumpet". He looked down at me with a smile and asked how old I was. I proudly replied that I was nine years old. He paused a moment and said "in 70 years you'll know how I feel". As the years tick by I've often reflected on how quickly those 70 years seem to be counting down and how much more quickly they will pass as time goes on. I hope one day to have the good fortune to be able to look down at a 9 year old boy and echo his words.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 30, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> So you should have no problem by now (2000 years later) taking a stand on just how certain you are on being right? What is it now - 90%, 99%, 99.999999999999999%, 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999%?
> 
> Why not 100%? What are you holding out on for 100%?



The idea that a man who died 2,000 years ago is going to come riding down out of the clouds on a horse with a sword protruding from his mouth is no less absurd than the idea that pigs will sprout wings and fly to the moon. I'm equally confident that both claims are false.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 30, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> The idea that a man who died 2,000 years ago is going to come riding down out of the clouds on a horse with a sword protruding from his mouth is no less absurd than the idea that pigs will sprout wings and fly to the moon. I'm equally confident that both claims are false.


That is all good and I would agree with you that pigs ain`t going to be flying to the moon and I am 100% confident in that. But this is not about pigs or any other bystanders.


> I'm equally confident that both claims are false.





Spotlite said:


> So you should have no problem by now (2000 years later) taking a stand on just how certain you are on being right? What is it now - 90%, 99%, 99.999999999999999%, 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999%?
> 
> Why not 100%? What are you holding out on for 100%?


But the other story in question concerning the return of Jesus........what is that percentage of confidence you have that it is false? Is it 100%?


----------



## oldfella1962 (Mar 30, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> To use the thought process of the AAs: prove it.



because no culture, language or religion has ever lasted longer than a few thousand years at best. You can google my claim if you doubt me. Thus why would one religion be exempt from the natural progression/evolution of our species? I guess this kind of reasoning is the result of how my brain is wired or something.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 30, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> The idea that a man who died 2,000 years ago is going to come riding down out of the clouds on a horse with a sword protruding from his mouth is no less absurd than the idea that pigs will sprout wings and fly to the moon. I'm equally confident that both claims are false.


Clouds could mean Fog of War or whatever else you want.
Horse could mean Ballistic Missile Or WEYW
Sword could mean ...aww heck literally anything.
Or
A God "could" make it all happen and despite the thousands of events that have happened throughout history, ALL of which described as the Apocalypse of Revelation,  the believers cannot wait for a catastrophic event to wipe out millions or billions if people just so they can be right. Time is on their side.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 30, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Clouds could mean Fog of War or whatever else you want.
> Horse could mean Ballistic Missile Or WEYW
> Sword could mean ...aww heck literally anything.
> Or
> A God "could" make it all happen and despite the thousands of events that have happened throughout history, ALL of which described as the Apocalypse of Revelation,  the believers cannot wait for a catastrophic event to wipe out millions or billions if people just so they can be right. Time is on their side.



Did you ever see that National Geographic documentary about the Strong City cult in New Mexico? I'm reminded of the part where they were predicting this big event with a physical transformation of their bodies and so on. Well the big night came and they all blew their trumpets and sang and marched together out to the gates of the property. The women yelled "hip hip hooray!". Then they went back to their houses and went to bed and life went on. They never admitted it was a false prophecy. The observers were just too stupid to see the fulfillment I guess. Much ado about nothing from where I stand.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 30, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Did you ever see that National Geographic documentary about the Strong City cult in New Mexico? I'm reminded of the part where they were predicting this big event with a physical transformation of their bodies and so on. Well the big night came and they all blew their trumpets and sang and marched together out to the gates of the property. The women yelled "hip hip hooray!". Then they went back to their houses and went to bed and life went on. They never admitted it was a false prophecy. The observers were just too stupid to see the fulfillment I guess. Much ado about nothing from where I stand.


I did not see that particular documentary but history is loaded with people who cannot wait to see total annihilation just so they can say "see I told you so" as they are being devoured by whatever catastrophe is a convenient example. 
When that doesn't happen it is "oh well" an off to the next claim.
Nobody after death has ever come back to give a Yelp review of what is going on.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Mar 30, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Did you ever see that National Geographic documentary about the Strong City cult in New Mexico? I'm reminded of the part where they were predicting this big event with a physical transformation of their bodies and so on. Well the big night came and they all blew their trumpets and sang and marched together out to the gates of the property. The women yelled "hip hip hooray!". Then they went back to their houses and went to bed and life went on. They never admitted it was a false prophecy. The observers were just too stupid to see the fulfillment I guess. Much ado about nothing from where I stand.




That said it least this non-event didn't result in any harm. Some of those different groups & cults that lean toward "crazy" ended up committing mass suicide or even mass murder over their interpretation of prophecy.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 30, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Clouds could mean Fog of War or whatever else you want.
> Horse could mean Ballistic Missile Or WEYW
> Sword could mean ...aww heck literally anything.
> Or
> A God "could" make it all happen and despite the thousands of events that have happened throughout history, ALL of which described as the Apocalypse of Revelation,  the believers cannot wait for a catastrophic event to wipe out millions or billions if people just so they can be right. Time is on their side.




Sword has always meant the Word of God. That sword will be a sword of judgment using the Word of God. 

Horse - war, power, glory.

Clouds - used to represent the presence of God.

That is not an attempt to prove / disprove anything, just pointing out that according to the story, that is what some of those terms refer to. I am sure there are tons of "interpretations" but I am ok with that, I will stick to the story itself if I want to know what the story means. 

I don't know anyone looking for "the end" so they can prove they are right. They really don`t care if anyone does not believe them.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 30, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> That said it least this non-event didn't result in any harm. Some of those different groups & cults that lean toward "crazy" ended up committing mass suicide or even mass murder over their interpretation of prophecy.



There was plenty of internal harm done.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 30, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Two thousand years ago:“You’ll see! Just wait!”
> 
> Today: “You’ll see! Just wait! It might not be for another 10,000 years but your knee will bow! Just wait!”
> 
> ...



Well, just like all the dead unbelievers before you, I guess you’ll find out when your time comes. How silly you will feel when you recall the words of the lowly buckpasser and realize you were wrong.  How sad it will be, but it’s not too late to change. You’re right though, I will go to my grave saying it, and my condition of bodily death will be quite enjoyable.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 30, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> because no culture, language or religion has ever lasted longer than a few thousand years at best. You can google my claim if you doubt me. Thus why would one religion be exempt from the natural progression/evolution of our species? I guess this kind of reasoning is the result of how my brain is wired or something.



I can appreciate your logic, really I can.  Why would one religion be exempt?  Because Christianity is actually communion with God. Neither you or I can prove any of this of course, if we don’t believe the other’s source of information, which we don’t.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 30, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> There was plenty of internal harm done.


His doo doo eating grin at 1:56 tells the real story.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 30, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I can appreciate your logic, really I can.  Why would one religion be exempt?  Because Christianity is actually communion with God. Neither you or I can prove any of this of course, if we don’t believe the other’s source of information, which we don’t.



This is what it always boils down to. A baseless assertion by someone with a vested interest in believing it to be true. AKA wishful thinking.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 30, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> His doo doo eating grin at 1:56 tells the real story.



Yes sir! The mask slips a bit there doesn't it?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 30, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Sword has always meant the Word of God. That sword will be a sword of judgment using the Word of God.
> 
> Horse - war, power, glory.
> 
> ...


I do understand you're description. It goes along with the typical metaphors used in those times. Many people believe Jesus is coming down through the clouds on a horse brandishing a sword to slay the wicked. 

Sounds like at least 1 person in here is a little giddy about the end and watching knees bend.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 30, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I can appreciate your logic, really I can.  Why would one religion be exempt?  Because Christianity is actually communion with God. Neither you or I can prove any of this of course, if we don’t believe the other’s source of information, which we don’t.


What is that you dont believe?
Our history of cultures/language/religions that have fallen by the wayside or the people who tell us they have fallen by the wayside?


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 30, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> This is what it always boils down to. A baseless assertion by someone with a vested interest in believing it to be true. AKA wishful thinking.



…and the exact converse.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 30, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> What is that you dont believe?
> Our history of cultures/language/religions that have fallen by the wayside or the people who tell us they have fallen by the wayside?



I don’t believe in or trust that science holds the answers to the past or the future.  There’s no arguing known history, I’m not attempting that.  The unknown portion is where we differ on sources to believe.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 30, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I do understand you're description. It goes along with the typical metaphors used in those times. Many people believe Jesus is coming down through the clouds on a horse brandishing a sword to slay the wicked.
> 
> Sounds like at least 1 person in here is a little giddy about the end and watching knees bend.



 Not giddy, just providing food for thought on considering voluntary knee bending.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 30, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Not giddy, just providing food for thought on considering voluntary knee bending.


Have you considered that both sides in here might be wrong and there are other options which neither have thought through?


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 30, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Have you considered that both sides in here might be wrong and there are other options which neither have thought through?



Why bother with that when you're fortunate enough to be born into the one true religion?


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 30, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Have you considered that both sides in here might be wrong and there are other options which neither have thought through?



Irrelevant. Have you considered that God might be who the Bible says he is?  Are you certain he’s not real?


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 30, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Why bother with that when you're fortunate enough to be born into the one true religion?



Exactly!  Just spend valuable time in life doubting all of them and needing reassurance from others who do the same, right?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 30, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Irrelevant. Have you considered that God might be who the Bible says he is?  Are you certain he’s not real?


Irrelevant?
I asked you a personal question. 
I used to think the God of Abraham/Jesus was real. That slowly has faded over the last 25+ years.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 30, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Exactly!  Just spend valuable time in life doubting all of them and needing reassurance from others who do the same, right?


And you point fingers at me.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Mar 30, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> There was plenty of internal harm done.



oh I see. So sad to see relatively "intelligent" people get caught up with this kind of drama.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 30, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I don’t believe in or trust that science holds the answers to the past or the future.  There’s no arguing known history, I’m not attempting that.  The unknown portion is where we differ on sources to believe.





> There’s no arguing known history,


Agreed.


> The unknown portion is where we differ on sources to believe


.
While I obviously have more confidence in science than you may, the unknown is still the unknown. I recognize that in some areas science is basically just our best guess at this time. I take it all with a grain of salt until it becomes a fact not a best guess.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 30, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> oh I see. So sad to see relatively "intelligent" people get caught up with this kind of drama.


Thats ^ what I used to think. Now I wonder if folks are just getting "caught up" in it or are they jumping in feet first? In which case they are just as responsible as the con men.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 30, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Exactly!  Just spend valuable time in life doubting all of them and needing reassurance from others who do the same, right?


I dont get this whole "needing reassurance" jab as though its some sort of abnormal thing. People of like minds/opinions gravitate towards each other on every subject under the sun. Including Christians. Its just what humans do.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 30, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Exactly!  Just spend valuable time in life doubting all of them and needing reassurance from others who do the same, right?



We all have our vices. I enjoy the banter while it lasts and I do find it fascinating how the programming of religion works on the brain.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Mar 30, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> We all have our vices. I enjoy the banter while it lasts and I do find it fascinating how the programming of religion works on the brain.



The programming of religion sometimes happens in a fast & furious manner because religion is one area where throwing common sense & logical thinking out the window is accepted and encouraged. In other words once doubt & cynicism aren't part of your normal "filtering" of ideas, you will transform your thinking that much faster and with more conviction. Here is an analogy:

Imagine a group of young people sitting around coming up with ideas for what to do on a Saturday night. One guy drinks a beer or two and his ideas start to sound foolish and irresponsible. But more people start drinking beer too, and now those foolish ideas sound pretty good, and as a matter of fact even crazier ideas start coming out of all the beer drinkers, and with no inhibitions - and with much encouragement - these ideas are considered valid.

Long story short, the young guys wake up naked in a petting zoo next to a dead clown.
But since they were all drinking heavily they have a default excuse, and while the excuse may not be tolerated, it will be understood by everyone who has ever drank too much beer while surrounded by other complicit beer drinkers.


----------



## ky55 (Mar 30, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> We all have our vices. I enjoy the banter while it lasts and I do find it fascinating how the programming of religion works on the brain.



What is even more fascinating to me is how the programming contains a built-in denial of the programming.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 30, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> We all have our vices. I enjoy the banter while it lasts and I do find it fascinating how the programming of religion works on the brain.





> how the programming of religion works on the brain.


What scientific / non scientific research has the data that this is based on that can explain how the programming of religion works on the brain?

Specifically; the negative as mentioned above - where common sense is thrown out.

What fascinates you about it?


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 30, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> What scientific / non scientific research has the data that is based based on that can explain how the programming of religion works on the brain?
> 
> Specifically; the negative as mentioned above - where common sense is thrown out.
> 
> What fascinates you about it?



Prayer/religious experiences can produce euphoria identical to what it's like to be on psychedelics.  That's interesting to me.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Mar 30, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Prayer/religious experiences can produce euphoria identical to what it's like to be on psychedelics.  That's interesting to me.



back in the day I had a neighbor who went to a few "snake handler" churches and when she talked about it, she described it as so trippy & weird that it was like going into another world.   Well she's not wrong, because if you get bit you just might end up "in another world" with your address being six feet under!


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 30, 2022)

ky55 said:


> What is even more fascinating to me is how the programming contains a built-in denial of the programming.



Part of the built in defense mechanism.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 30, 2022)

ky55 said:


> What is even more fascinating to me is how the programming contains a built-in denial of the programming.



And your post is immediately followed by a demonstration of it.


----------



## ky55 (Mar 30, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Part of the built in defense mechanism.



Part of the initial indoctrination for most.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Prayer/religious experiences can produce euphoria identical to what it's like to be on psychedelics.  That's interesting to me.


Dang. Could have saved alot of money.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 31, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> The programming of religion sometimes happens in a fast & furious manner because religion is one area where throwing common sense & logical thinking out the window is accepted and encouraged. In other words once doubt & cynicism aren't part of your normal "filtering" of ideas, you will transform your thinking that much faster and with more conviction. Here is an analogy:
> 
> Imagine a group of young people sitting around coming up with ideas for what to do on a Saturday night. One guy drinks a beer or two and his ideas start to sound foolish and irresponsible. But more people start drinking beer too, and now those foolish ideas sound pretty good, and as a matter of fact even crazier ideas start coming out of all the beer drinkers, and with no inhibitions - and with much encouragement - these ideas are considered valid.
> 
> ...





> the young guys wake up naked in a petting zoo next to a dead clown


From the sounds of it I dont even want to know what the clown died of.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

Why do you boys care what other people believe if you don’t believe in anything?  And do t say that you don’t care.  There are pages and pages of you going on and on about something so you do care.  Why though?  There are people that think aliens visit earth.  I think that’s hilarious but it doesn’t bother me if they believe it and I feel no need to talk them out of it.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Prayer/religious experiences can produce euphoria identical to what it's like to be on psychedelics.  That's interesting to me.


Never gotten high from church.  Never met anybody who has.  This sounds like one of those things atheists like to believe.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> We all have our vices. I enjoy the banter while it lasts and I do find it fascinating how the programming of religion works on the brain.


What programming would that be?  I believe what I believe because I choose to and you boys have nothing to offer but nothing.  That’s what cracks me up about atheists.  Their sales pitch is, “You’re so dumb.  You should be more like me.”  When you ask them what they have that’s better the answer is nothing.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> The programming of religion sometimes happens in a fast & furious manner because religion is one area where throwing common sense & logical thinking out the window is accepted and encouraged. In other words once doubt & cynicism aren't part of your normal "filtering" of ideas, you will transform your thinking that much faster and with more conviction. Here is an analogy:
> 
> Imagine a group of young people sitting around coming up with ideas for what to do on a Saturday night. One guy drinks a beer or two and his ideas start to sound foolish and irresponsible. But more people start drinking beer too, and now those foolish ideas sound pretty good, and as a matter of fact even crazier ideas start coming out of all the beer drinkers, and with no inhibitions - and with much encouragement - these ideas are considered valid.
> 
> ...


Really bad analogy.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Why do you boys care what other people believe if you don’t believe in anything?  And do t say that you don’t care.  There are pages and pages of you going on and on about something so you do care.  Why though?  There are people that think aliens visit earth.  I think that’s hilarious but it doesn’t bother me if they believe it and I feel no need to talk them out of it.


The problem isn’t not believing in anything, it’s they’re not even 100% sure God isn’t there so it’s comforting to remind us He must not be since they haven’t found him.

What’s hilarious is this; being equally confident that both the flying pig and God are fake claims and do not exist at the same time of not being 100% confident that God doesn’t exist. That tells me they either haven’t taken it one God further as claimed, or they’re not 100% confident that all the other characters don’t exist, either.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> What programming would that be?  I believe what I believe because I choose to and you boys have nothing to offer but nothing.  That’s what cracks me up about atheists.  Their sales pitch is, “You’re so dumb.  You should be more like me.”  When you ask them what they have that’s better the answer is nothing.


Here is the guy who's purpose is to think he is scolding people for engaging in conversations about things that HE thinks they are not interested in....meanwhile he has to make it a point to engage with people that he has no interest in.
You must do an awful lot of talking to Atheists. For someone who doesn't care about athists you seem to have a lot of conversations with them. No atheist in here has ever said that sales pitch of Yours so where do you hear such things? Or is this another one of your blanket assumptions that you try to pass off as truth simply because you think it?

What exactly do you mean by "asking them what they have that's better"?
Are you asking them "what do they have that's better than believing in, worshiping and bowing down to an invisible figment of their imagination"?
Yeah, definitely hard to top that. Probably only a couple hundred thousand things that are better.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Never gotten high from church.  Never met anybody who has.  This sounds like one of those things atheists like to believe.


You should have went to some of those churches I did growing up. I've seen folks stand there for fifteen minutes jumping up and down in a trance-like state looking up in the air and hollering at the tops of their lungs while crying and laughing at the same time.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Never gotten high from church.  Never met anybody who has.  This sounds like one of those things atheists like to believe.


I have been completely "moved" at church services before.
Not sure I could compare it to psychedelics though.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> What programming would that be?  I believe what I believe because I choose to and you boys have nothing to offer but nothing.  That’s what cracks me up about atheists.  Their sales pitch is, “You’re so dumb.  You should be more like me.”  When you ask them what they have that’s better the answer is nothing.


You’ll be lucky if you get anything that backs up his claim with anything that’s not a biased opinion. He’s adamant in wanting you to prove your claims with testable data, though.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 31, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> The problem isn’t not believing in anything, it’s they’re not even 100% sure God isn’t there so it’s comforting to remind us He must not be since they haven’t found him.
> 
> What’s hilarious is this; being equally confident that both the flying pig and God are fake claims and do not exist at the same time of not being 100% confident that God doesn’t exist. That tells me they either haven’t taken it one God further as claimed, or they’re not 100% confident that all the other characters don’t exist, either.


Spot, you are the same guy that told me that common sense and logic tells you that a 7 headed dragon doesn't exist in heaven and are now questioning others using common sense and logic.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Here is the guy who's purpose is to think he is scolding people for engaging in conversations about things that HE thinks they are not interested in....meanwhile he has to make it a point to engage with people that he has no interest in.
> You must do an awful lot of talking to Atheists. For someone who doesn't care about athists you seem to have a lot of conversations with them. No atheist in here has ever said that sales pitch of Yours so where do you hear such things? Or is this another one of your blanket assumptions that you try to pass off as truth simply because you think it?
> 
> What exactly do you mean by "asking them what they have that's better"?
> ...


Oh I don’t know.  You’re doing a pretty good job of making my point.  Self aggrandizement, narcissism, and rage don’t seem like much of a trade off.  If becoming an atheist means I’ll be more like the above post I’ll just keep what I’ve got.  Thanks.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Oh I don’t know.  You’re doing a pretty good job of making my point.  Self aggrandizement, narcissism, and rage don’t seem like much of a trade off.  If becoming an atheist means I’ll be more like the above post I’ll just keep what I’ve got.  Thanks.


What do you "got"?
If your point is that you say things which are not true,  like your answers from atheists that you claim to get then yeah I've proven that.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> You’ll be lucky if you get anything that backs up his claim with anything that’s not a biased opinion. He’s adamant in wanting you to prove your claims with testable data, though.


I know.  He’s a miserable person.  I would be too if I thought I was the center of the universe.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

bullethead said:


> What do you "got"?


What difference does it make?  You don’t believe in any of it?


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 31, 2022)

Let's not go back there with the personal attacks, fellers. Y'all wanna cut one another with pocketknives, meet up in an alley somewhere.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 31, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Spot, you are the same guy that told me that common sense and logic tells you that a 7 headed dragon doesn't exist in heaven and are now questioning others using common sense and logic.


I’m referring to those that claim that religion is where common sense and logic are thrown out the window and accepted. And more specifically one poster that demands testable data as evidence while making unsupported claims.

Why does it have to be that only non believers use common sense and logic and it’s parameters are determined by the non believer?


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> You should have went to some of those churches I did growing up. I've seen folks stand there for fifteen minutes jumping up and down in a trance-like state looking up in the air and hollering at the tops of their lungs while crying and laughing at the same time.


And none of it is real.  That’s the problem.  Y’all use the most bizarre and unfavorable examples of behavior exhibited by people who say they are Christians as blanket statements about ALL Christians.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Let's not go back there with the personal attacks, fellers. Y'all wanna cut one another with pocketknives, meet up in an alley somewhere.


Oh I’m not interested in that.  He can’t help himself and calls it “discussing topics” but I’m bored with it at this point.  Happy to talk to anybody that’s not on the verge of a breakdown.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 31, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I’m referring to those that claim that religion is where common sense and logic are thrown out the window and accepted.
> 
> Why does it have to be that only non believers use common sense and logic and it’s parameters are determined by the non believer?


I am asking you where the common sense and logic line is drawn, religious or not.
You have stated that using both has allowed you to rule some biblical things out. Other people use the same criteria but rule out more.
Same stretch of highway, different rest stops.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I’m referring to those that claim that religion is where common sense and logic are thrown out the window and accepted. And more specifically one poster that demands testable em data as evidence while making unsupported claims.
> 
> Why does it have to be that only non believers use common sense and logic and it’s parameters are determined by the non believer?


And that is why I have so much fun messing with them.  The way they have themselves set up as judge and the arbiter of what is and what is not is hilarious. They’re used to Christians tolerating their crap and trying to be nice while they get ridiculed by them.  I am not that kind of Christian and love watching them freak out when you give them a taste of it.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> And none of it is real.  That’s the problem.  Y’all use the most bizarre and unfavorable examples of behavior exhibited by people who say they are Christians as blanket statements about ALL Christians.


Not saying that's all Christians by a long shot. But a lot of those have and still do exist.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> What programming would that be?  I believe what I believe because I choose to and you boys have nothing to offer but nothing.  That’s what cracks me up about atheists.  Their sales pitch is, “You’re so dumb.  You should be more like me.”  When you ask them what they have that’s better the answer is nothing.



Why did you choose one god over another? And you’re not dumb. That’s what makes it so fascinating. That otherwise rational people can be so irrational especially if you get their minds from a young age. You reject almost every god on lack of evidence just like the atheist does. Yet you make an exception for one. One which there is no more evidence of existence than any other. One which most likely you were taught to believe from early childhood. Others in other nations do the same for other gods. And they are all extremely resistant to questioning the veracity of their beliefs. That’s programming. It’s very much like a computer virus designed to replicate and resist removal.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 31, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Not saying that's all Christians by a long shot. But a lot of those have and still do exist.


Add in that every denomination adds or takes something away to make them different from the rest and claim that whatever they are doing is "real" while stating that the others are not and it is a conglomeration of groups that have splintered off that use the same Christian banner but each think the other is whacky.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Not saying that's all Christians by a long shot. But a lot of those have and still do exist.


Yeah but your issue is not necessarily with Christianity.  Your issue is with three things as I understand it.  Megalomaniacal behavior on the part of clergy and people in positions of leadership relative to religion, easily led people who are looking for somewhere to belong and thus dispense with common sense, and what Steve Rinella recently described as overly sensitive members of enthusiast groups.  Man that’s not part and parcel with Christianity it’s part and parcel with human behavior.  Look at our political parties.  You’ll see the exact same behavior.  I don’t like the very things that you don’t like.  But that isn’t Christianity it’s undesirable characteristics of human behavior.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 31, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I am asking you where the common sense and logic line is drawn, religious or not.
> You have stated that using both has allowed you to rule some biblical things out. Other people use the same criteria but rule out more.
> Same stretch of highway, different rest stops.


For me, anything you’ve posted wasn’t in question.

I understand where you come from. I was questioning one poster claiming he’s “equally” confident when in reality he’s not. To be equally confident, you’re 100% confident or 99.99999% for both. 

My point to that is the Christian is often given “intellectual dishonesty” phrase. Being almost sure or most likely it’s not is acceptable. Claiming you’re equally confident says there’s a very small minuscule possibility that pigs can sprout wings and fly.

Sure, common sense and logic are used by everyone. Some just think it’s thrown out the window in religion.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Why did you choose one god over another? And you’re not dumb. That’s what makes it so fascinating. That otherwise rational people can be so irrational especially if you get their minds from a young age. You reject almost every god on lack of evidence just like the atheist does. Yet you make an exception for one. One which there is no more evidence of existence than any other. One which most likely you were taught to believe from early childhood. Others in other nations do the same for other gods. And they are all extremely resistant to questioning the veracity of their beliefs. That’s programming. It’s very much like a computer virus designed to replicate and resist removal.


Well if I’m being honest, and I always aim to be, it’s because that’s what section my seats are in.  But you’re bringing your own preconceptions and biases into this.  I had a time in my life when I was done with Christianity and religion in general and came back to it on my own.  I wasn’t lead back by anyone.  So to me your description of brain washed religious people is a dog that doesn’t hunt.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Why did you choose one god over another? And you’re not dumb. That’s what makes it so fascinating. That otherwise rational people can be so irrational especially if you get their minds from a young age. You reject almost every god on lack of evidence just like the atheist does. Yet you make an exception for one. One which there is no more evidence of existence than any other. One which most likely you were taught to believe from early childhood. Others in other nations do the same for other gods. And they are all extremely resistant to questioning the veracity of their beliefs. That’s programming. It’s very much like a computer virus designed to replicate and resist removal.


I think its alot about "perspective". Or where you sit allows you to see different things.
A believer is going to see it from one angle.
A used to be believer from a different angle.
A never believed from yet a different angle.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Yeah but your issue is not necessarily with Christianity.  Your issue is with three things as I understand it.  Megalomaniacal behavior on the part of clergy and people in positions of leadership relative to religion, easily led people who are looking for somewhere to belong and thus dispense with common sense, and what Steve Rinella recently described as overly sensitive members of enthusiast groups.  Man that’s not part and parcel with Christianity it’s part and parcel with human behavior.  Look at our political parties.  You’ll see the exact same behavior.  I don’t like the very things that you don’t like.  But that isn’t Christianity it’s undesirable characteristics of human behavior.


Wouldn't it be more simple for individuals to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior,  worship, celebrate,  honor however they choose on a personal level and leave everyone else out of it?


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Oh I’m not interested in that.  He can’t help himself and calls it “discussing topics” but I’m bored with it at this point.  Happy to talk to anybody that’s not on the verge of a breakdown.



For someone not interested in personal attacks you wouldn’t know it from your posts. Including this one.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Yeah but your issue is not necessarily with Christianity.  Your issue is with three things as I understand it.  Megalomaniacal behavior on the part of clergy and people in positions of leadership relative to religion, easily led people who are looking for somewhere to belong and thus dispense with common sense, and what Steve Rinella recently described as overly sensitive members of enthusiast groups.  Man that’s not part and parcel with Christianity it’s part and parcel with human behavior.  Look at our political parties.  You’ll see the exact same behavior.  I don’t like the very things that you don’t like.  But that isn’t Christianity it’s undesirable characteristics of human behavior.


Yep, for the most part. I have absolutely no "issue" with Christianity to begin with. I just do not believe in organized religion, and think it is used mostly as a tool to manipulate people and separate them from their money. That applies to all organized religions, not just one. I think religion is a personal issue, not a part of an official structure. As far as what your personal religion is, I don't care one way or the other as long as it works for you. Or how you rob your bees or trim your mule hoofs.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Yep, for the most part. I have absolutely no "issue" with Christianity to begin with. I just do not believe in organized religion, and think it is used mostly as a tool to manipulate people and separate them from their money. That applies to all organized religions, not just one. I think religion is a personal issue, not a part of an official structure. As far as what your personal religion is, I don't care one way or the other as long as it works for you.


I pretty much agree with all of that except the last sentence.  I care to the extent that I want to see you in heaven.  That doesn’t mean I’m going to bug you about it if you’re a Muslim or an atheist who isn’t a loud mouth narcissistic proselytizer for atheism.  I believe a good sermon lived out is better than one preached.  By the same token, anybody who thinks they’re going to push their stuff on me or ridicule me for my beliefs, well they can stand by.  I ain’t that kind of Christian.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 31, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I am asking you where the common sense and logic line is drawn, religious or not.
> You have stated that using both has allowed you to rule some biblical things out. Other people use the same criteria but rule out more.
> Same stretch of highway, different rest stops.


I don’t think there’s a line that’s the same for everyone. Common sense stops at different places for everyone. Some believe just a little more digging and it’ll make sense, so it don’t just stop here on a line just because. 

Even in Christianity there are still things I see as an impossible task but I keep in mind that if we’re talking about a deity that has no limitations, then that’ll be the only way those things could transpire the way it was told as have happened or will happen. That’s where faith comes in, If it can happen, there’s only one way for it to happen.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Yeah but your issue is not necessarily with Christianity.  Your issue is with three things as I understand it.  Megalomaniacal behavior on the part of clergy and people in positions of leadership relative to religion, easily led people who are looking for somewhere to belong and thus dispense with common sense, and what Steve Rinella recently described as overly sensitive members of enthusiast groups.  Man that’s not part and parcel with Christianity it’s part and parcel with human behavior.  Look at our political parties.  You’ll see the exact same behavior.  I don’t like the very things that you don’t like.  But that isn’t Christianity it’s undesirable characteristics of human behavior.



The point was that people can get a mental high from their religious experiences. Whether you do and  how you choose to characterize it is irrelevant.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> For someone not interested in personal attacks you wouldn’t know it from your posts. Including this one.


I don’t take crap from people.  If that is unacceptable to someone their best bet is to just leave me alone.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> The point was that people can get a mental high from their religious experiences. Whether you do and  how you choose to characterize it is irrelevant.


I would bet there are very few people who meet that description and to me this entire exercise about people being religious because it gets them high is kind of irrelevant.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Well if I’m being honest, and I always aim to be, it’s because that’s what section my seats are in.  But you’re bringing your own preconceptions and biases into this.  I had a time in my life when I was done with Christianity and religion in general and came back to it on my own.  I wasn’t lead back by anyone.  So to me your description of brain washed religious people is a dog that doesn’t hunt.



I’ve never said people can’t or don’t choose it but it shouldn’t go unnoticed you chose to go back to the seats in your section. Appreciate the honesty.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I don’t take crap from people.  If that is unacceptable to someone their best bet is to just leave me alone.



I didn’t come at you, you came at me. Now you’re trying to make excuses for it.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> I’ve never said people can’t or don’t choose it but it shouldn’t go unnoticed you chose to go back to the seats in your section. Appreciate the honesty.


Go unnoticed?  I’m the one who said it.  I also freely admit that I can’t prove God’s existence.  Y’all are way more hung up on this stuff than I am.  The things I get from being a Christian make my life better and make me a better person than I would be if I thought I was the most important thing in the world and put my faith in humans.  In the end if I die and it just goes black I’ve lost absolutely nothing.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 31, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I don’t think there’s a line that’s the same for everyone. Common sense stops at different places for everyone. Some believe just a little more digging and it’ll make sense, so it don’t just stop here on a line just because.
> 
> Even in Christianity there are still things I see as an impossible task but I keep in mind that if we’re talking about a deity that has no limitations, then that’ll be the only way those things could transpire the way it was told as have happened or will happen. That’s where faith comes in, If it can happen, there’s only one way for it to happen.


Again I agree with individuals having different lines in the logic/common sense sand.

It would make sense to me that if someone did believe 100% in in a deity that transcends limitations and possibilities then they wouldn't have any lines in the sand as literally anything is possible. And I do not find fault in that person. I question their claims when they tell others the claims are true. Truth has proof and it shouldn't be hard to back one up with the other.
That being said I am all for anyone believing whatever they need to or want to. If they are happy and it makes them a better person somehow then cheers. When they step outside of their happy and start telling others that those others would be better, or happier or somehow enhanced if the others would believe and do just like them....that is the catalyst for questions.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> I didn’t come at you, you came at me. Now you’re trying to make excuses for it.


Where did I come at you?  I wasn’t talking about you. I don’t make excuses.  No need.  If a person comes at me looking for trouble they’re gonna get it and I don’t apologize for it.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I would bet there are very few people who meet that description and to me this entire exercise about people being religious because it gets them high is kind of irrelevant.



Maybe so. I came up in a lot of churches like nchillbilly described. I wouldn’t classify pentecostal and similar evangelical churches as a small subset of Christianity. But whether we call it a high or not let’s not pretend christians could take it or leave depending on what the facts prove out. They clearly are getting something out of it and love to tell everyone so.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> The point was that people can get a mental high from their religious experiences. Whether you do and  how you choose to characterize it is irrelevant.


All you have to do is spend a few minutes on Youtube and you can witness exactly that.
I kind of wonder about people who dont get some sort of "high" from their religion. Maybe they dont believe as much as they think they do?


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Maybe so. I came up in a lot of churches like nchillbilly described. I wouldn’t classify pentecostal and similar evangelical churches as a small subset of Christianity. But whether we call it a high or not let’s not pretend christians could take it or leave depending on what the facts prove out. They clearly are getting something out of it and love to tell everyone so.


Im not pretending anything.  It kills me how some of y’all act like you’re the brave ones ferreting out the truth.  The number of Pentecostals, Primitive Baptists, and other charismatic denominations is dwarfed by the rest of the Christian faith.  It’s just easier and more convenient to paint us all as that.


----------



## Israel (Mar 31, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> All you have to do is spend a few minutes on Youtube and you can witness exactly that.
> I kind of wonder about people who dont get some sort of "high" from their religion. Maybe they dont believe as much as they think they do?


The Emperor's New Clothes comes to mind.

But who's the little boy in the story?

And who's the Emperor?


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 31, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Again I agree with individuals having different lines in the logic/common sense sand.
> 
> It would make sense to me that if someone did believe 100% in in a deity that transcends limitations and possibilities then they wouldn't have any lines in the sand as literally anything is possible. And I do not find fault in that person. I question their claims when they tell others the claims are true. Truth has proof and it shouldn't be hard to back one up with the other.
> That being said I am all for anyone believing whatever they need to or want to. If they are happy and it makes them a better person somehow then cheers. When they step outside of their happy and start telling others that those others would be better, or happier or somehow enhanced if the others would believe and do just like them....that is the catalyst for questions.





> I question their claims when they tell others the claims are true.


There are those that take that as a personal insult. Whether its meant that way or not.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> All you have to do is spend a few minutes on Youtube and you can witness exactly that.
> I kind of wonder about people who dont get some sort of "high" from their religion. Maybe they dont believe as much as they think they do?


Maybe they aren’t in it for a high.


----------



## Israel (Mar 31, 2022)

What do you mean by Pentecostal when you say it?

For those who have used it.

I'm showing a little wear...probably need a paint job.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Im not pretending anything.  It kills me how some of y’all act like you’re the brave ones ferreting out the truth.  The number of Pentecostals, Primitive Baptists, and other charismatic denominations is dwarfed by the rest of the Christian faith.  It’s just easier and more convenient to paint us all as that.


The ones I am referring to were Missionary Baptists, for the most part. Methodists were the same here except for the big fancy ones in town. Holler, run, jump, shout, jump over pews, go into almost trances. Scream while preaching.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> The ones I am referring to were Missionary Baptists, for the most part. Methodists were the same here except for the big fancy ones in town. Holler, run, jump, shout, jump over pews, go into almost trances. Scream while preaching.


Never been to a Methodist church like that.  And I’m a Methodist in a small town in Southwest Georgia and a member of a church with
less than a hundred members.  Never even heard of a Methodist church like that.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Im not pretending anything.  It kills me how some of y’all act like you’re the brave ones ferreting out the truth.  The number of Pentecostals, Primitive Baptists, and other charismatic denominations is dwarfed by the rest of the Christian faith.  It’s just easier and more convenient to paint us all as that.


Lets be completely honest.
You are guilty of the same when it comes to A/As.
Its wrong regardless of which direction its pointed.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Lets be completely honest.
> You are guilty of the same when it comes to A/As.
> Its wrong regardless of which direction its pointed.


That’s fair.  Now you be completely honest, this forum is mostly about you and your pals playing gotcha.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Maybe they aren’t in it for a high.


Wasnt my point.
If you get the same feeling from your religion as you do driving to work it just makes me wonder.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Wasnt my point.
> If you get the same feeling from your religion as you do driving to work it just makes me wonder.


Lol.  Ok man.  Don’t worry about me.  I’m fine.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> That’s fair.  Now you be completely honest, this forum is mostly about you and your pals playing gotcha.


I 100% disagree with you.
However there is an element of "gotcha" when it comes to debate.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Lol.  Ok man.  Don’t worry about me.  I’m fine.


I promise I wasnt worried about you.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> I 100% disagree with you.
> However there is an element of "gotcha" when it comes to debate.


This forum might reach the level of debate here and there.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> I promise I wasnt worried about you.


Good.  To me there is a lot of room between driving a car and high.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Go unnoticed?  I’m the one who said it.  I also freely admit that I can’t prove God’s existence.  Y’all are way more hung up on this stuff than I am.  The things I get from being a Christian make my life better and make me a better person than I would be if I thought I was the most important thing in the world and put my faith in humans.  In the end if I die and it just goes black I’ve lost absolutely nothing.



Fair enough. I’m definitely wired different so couldn’t take that position but I do understand it. From that standpoint is one section of seats just as good as any other?

When I think of apologetics the question that comes to mind isn’t so much can you prove it as “what is the justification of your faith?”. If the answer is I can’t prove it and don’t care to but it helps me live a better life and be a better person that’s not a bad answer. Hand in hand with that would seem to be an acknowledgment that others born in other places are in the same boat and we can’t put the truth claims of one over the other.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Never gotten high from church.  Never met anybody who has.  This sounds like one of those things atheists like to believe.



You should look into it.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 31, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> There are those that take that as a personal insult. Whether its meant that way or not.


Yes and that is on them.
I can respect what an individual believes. That is how they put the pieces of the puzzle together and it works for them.

It is a different conversation entirely when they jump from this is what I beleive to this is what is true.
If someone gets offended for being asked to show their work and says trust me on the answer its on them.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Im not pretending anything.  It kills me how some of y’all act like you’re the brave ones ferreting out the truth.  The number of Pentecostals, Primitive Baptists, and other charismatic denominations is dwarfed by the rest of the Christian faith.  It’s just easier and more convenient to paint us all as that.



There is around 280 million globally that would fall under the umbrella of Pentecostalism. How many Methodists are there? And are they the only ones in the faith that we could say get a high out of their faith and worship? That would surprise me if it’s the case but the bottom line is they are mentally and emotionally getting something out of their faith whether it’s actually true or not. You just acknowledged that in your own case.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

Israel said:


> What do you mean by Pentecostal when you say it?
> 
> For those who have used it.
> 
> I'm showing a little wear...probably need a paint job.



Spirit filled churches with speaking in tongues. Assembly of God, Church of God, United Pentecostal and similar denominations around the world. I would also include many non denominational spirit filled churches.


----------



## Israel (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Spirit filled churches with speaking in tongues. Assembly of God, Church of God, United Pentecostal and similar denominations around the world. I would also include many non denominational spirit filled churches.


Thank you.

Might you understand, though I do not label or even call myself pentecostal, big P little p (doesn't matter)...how that, even to your understanding per your apparent position...what other type of church could there be...but spirit filled?

But I don't think I have heard you say anything derogatory (correct me if I am wrong) as though associating with such "spirit filled, tongues speaking" folks were any less nor more to you than any other _christian brand._

Yet it would seem some (on the "christian" side) want to disassociate themselves from such ...if your definition is also theirs, or very similar.

In the broadest sense my understanding (even of those who care to label themselves as such) is that they not only believe in all the things called "gifts of the spirit", but also practice them as presently available to any believer as the Spirit ministers.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 31, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Yes and that is on them.
> I can respect what an individual believes. That is how they put the pieces of the puzzle together and it works for them.
> 
> It is a different conversation entirely when they jump from this is what I beleive to this is what is true.
> If someone gets offended for being asked to show their work and says trust me on the answer its on them.


Agreed.
Particularly in an A/A/A forum. Shouldnt be too suprised if you get questioned.


----------



## Israel (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> There is around 280 million globally that would fall under the umbrella of Pentecostalism. How many Methodists are there? And are they the only ones in the faith that we could say get a high out of their faith and worship? That would surprise me if it’s the case but the bottom line is they are mentally and emotionally getting something out of their faith whether it’s actually true or not. You just acknowledged that in your own case.


Would to God all my emotional and mental _getting of something_ would be solely of the spirit.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

Israel said:


> Thank you.
> 
> Might you understand, though I do not label or even call myself pentecostal, big P little p (doesn't matter)...how that, even to your understanding per your apparent position...what other type of church could there be...but spirit filled?
> 
> ...



Well I came up in those churches so when I use the term spirit filled I mean it as they would in the context of the day of Pentecost described in Acts.


----------



## Israel (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Well I came up in those churches so when I use the term spirit filled I mean it as they would in the context of the day of Pentecost described in Acts.





> context of the day of Pentecost described in Acts.




Hey ya gotta admit that describes some sorta folks so "besides themselves" to the point of being accused of being drunk.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> There is around 280 million globally that would fall under the umbrella of Pentecostalism. How many Methodists are there? And are they the only ones in the faith that we could say get a high out of their faith and worship? That would surprise me if it’s the case but the bottom line is they are mentally and emotionally getting something out of their faith whether it’s actually true or not. You just acknowledged that in your own case.


This entire line of the argument is silly.  It’s an attempt to paint Christians as either superstitious weirdos getting their fix from the shaman or junkies of a different stripe.  Do those people exist?  Yeah they do.  Do they represent I large percentage of Christians?  I doubt it.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

Israel said:


> Hey ya gotta admit that describes some sorta folks so "besides themselves" to the point of being accused of being drunk.



Good point. I forgot about that.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> This entire line of the argument is silly.  It’s an attempt to paint Christians as either superstitious weirdos getting their fix from the shaman or junkies of a different stripe.  Do those people exist?  Yeah they do.  Do they represent I large percentage of Christians?  I doubt it.



I haven’t characterized it in those terms so let’s be clear those are your words. Do Methodists have revivals? I’ve seen revivals fill stadiums and they often get the people quite worked up hence the term revival. I don’t know why you’re so stuck on this point.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> I haven’t characterized it in those terms so let’s be clear those are your words. Do Methodists have revivals? I’ve seen revivals fill stadiums and they often get the people quite worked up hence the term revival. I don’t know why you’re so stuck on this point.


I’m not stuck any more than you are.  Lol.  I e noticed that’s one of y’all’s favorite tactics.  Accuse the Christian of doing what you do.  Methodists do have revivals.  I’ve never seen one that matches y’all’s cartoon version or even comes close.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> I have been completely "moved" at church services before.
> Not sure I could compare it to psychedelics though.



You weren't holding your chakra right.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I’m not stuck any more than you are.  Lol.  I e noticed that’s one of y’all’s favorite tactics.  Accuse the Christian of doing what you do.  Methodists do have revivals.  I’ve never seen one that matches y’all’s cartoon version or even comes close.



Not sure who you mean by “y’all”. Atheists or Pentecostals or the Baptist’s nchillbilly was talking about?


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I’m not stuck any more than you are.  Lol.  I e noticed that’s one of y’all’s favorite tactics.  Accuse the Christian of doing what you do.  Methodists do have revivals.  I’ve never seen one that matches y’all’s cartoon version or even comes close.



Ever heard the term “drunk in the spirit”? Where do you think that comes from?


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Not sure who you mean by “y’all”. Atheists or Pentecostals or the Baptist’s nchillbilly was talking about?


You and the other atheists who post here.  I can’t tell if you’re being obtuse but it seems like it.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Ever heard the term “drunk in the spirit”? Where do you think that comes from?


Never.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> You and the other atheists who post here.  I can’t tell if you’re being obtuse but it seems like it.








^These folks, atheists or christians?




Danuwoa said:


> Never.



Then you’re speaking from a position of ignorance.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> ^These folks, atheists or christians?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And in your mind that’s apparently most Christians.  I acknowledged at least twice that those people exist.  I’m simply rejecting your ignorant assertion that this represents most Christians.  That’s just not true.  You just want it to be.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> And in your mind that’s apparently most Christians.  I acknowledged at least twice that those people exist.  I’m simply rejecting your ignorant assertion that this represents most Christians.  That’s just not true.  You just want it to be.


I think it's maybe a regional thing. In my area when I was growing up, that was indeed representative of most Christians to some extent or another. Most not to the extent of that video, but "getting the spirit" was a part of pretty much every service in every church around here. And there were a good percentage of them that did the speaking in tongues and holy laughter things, too. I think it's not as widespread now as it was back then, but most country churches around here are still loud and lively.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I think it's maybe a regional thing. In my area when I was growing up, that was indeed representative of most Christians to some extent or another. Most not to the extent of that video, but "getting the spirit" was a part of pretty much every service in every church around here. And there were a good percentage of them that did the speaking in tongues and holy laughter things, too. I think it's not as widespread now as it was back then, but most country churches around here are still loud and lively.


See I’ve never seen any of that.  But this post is way more reasonable than that other nonsense.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

How about the term “slain in the spirit”? Never heard that one either?




Danuwoa said:


> And in your mind that’s apparently most Christians.  I acknowledged at least twice that those people exist.  I’m simply rejecting your ignorant assertion that this represents most Christians.  That’s just not true.  You just want it to be.



Please quote me where I ever said or suggested it represents most Christians. It does represent a large number of Christians. I never claimed all or even most take it to that level. Nobody has suggested that. So for you to argue against it is just arguing against a straw man.

I’m well aware Methodist church services don’t look like the ones in that video. Is that clear enough for you?


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I think it's maybe a regional thing. In my area when I was growing up, that was indeed representative of most Christians to some extent or another. Most not to the extent of that video, but "getting the spirit" was a part of pretty much every service in every church around here. And there were a good percentage of them that did the speaking in tongues and holy laughter things, too. I think it's not as widespread now as it was back then, but most country churches around here are still loud and lively.



It’s not a regional thing. I can show you videos like that in Korea, Africa and Latin America.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> How about the term “slain in the spirit”? Never heard that one either?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I’ve acknowledged three times now at least that these people exist and you keep talking about it.  So if you’re not arguing that it’s majority or close, after I’ve acknowledged their existence, I dont know why you still want to talk about this.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> It’s not a regional thing. I can show you videos like that in Korea, Africa and Latin America.


Oh good Lord.  And he STILL can’t quit talking about it.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

From this:



Danuwoa said:


> Never gotten high from church.  Never met anybody who has.  This sounds like one of those things atheists like to believe.



To this…



Danuwoa said:


> I’m not stuck any more than you are.  Lol.  I e noticed that’s one of y’all’s favorite tactics.  Accuse the Christian of doing what you do.  Methodists do have revivals.  I’ve never seen one that matches y’all’s cartoon version or even comes close.



To…



Danuwoa said:


> I’ve acknowledged three times now at least that these people exist and you keep talking about it.  So if you’re not arguing that it’s majority or close, after I’ve acknowledged their existence, I dont know why you still want to talk about this.


----------



## 660griz (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> It’s not a regional thing. I can show you videos like that in Korea, Africa and Latin America.


Are you saying those aren't regions?  
While there are certainly other regions that perform like superstitious weirdos...I think NCHillbilly may be correct related to the US. Never heard of snake handlers and the 'holiness' folks outside of the southeast. Granted, I have not tried to make a documentary on the subject but, I have lived and visited most of the US and parts of Canada. I can imagine Mexico and some 3rd world countries have similar 'rituals'.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> From this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is it barely possible you had a role in that?  Since that’s what you’ve wanted to talk to me about all morning it’s kind of hard for me to talk about much else.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

Going back to what ambush said about religious experiences being able to produce euphoria and the video I just posted who wouldn’t find it fascinating? Notice in that video Hagin primes the audience by explaining that the apostles in Acts must have appeared to be drunk. The audience immediately responded to that suggestion. What’s going on there? Are they all acting? Is it some group psychology phenomena? The people themselves would swear to you on a stack of bibles it was a real spiritual experience. It’s very interesting. Also very interesting that other Christians that may not share all of their beliefs and experiences get defensive and would rather not talk about it.


----------



## 660griz (Mar 31, 2022)

I would like to add a Just curious...

If Christian God is the only true God, why was Christianity not the first religion? Why was man around for 1000s of years, numerous other religions, and then, Christianity? Wouldn't all other religions come later or be an off-shoot? Wouldn't all the offspring of Noah, etc., be indoctrinated into Christianity?


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

660griz said:


> Are you saying those aren't regions?
> While there are certainly other regions that perform like superstitious weirdos...I think NCHillbilly may be correct related to the US. Never heard of snake handlers and the 'holiness' folks outside of the southeast. Granted, I have not tried to make a documentary on the subject but, I have lived and visited most of the US and parts of Canada. I can imagine Mexico and some 3rd world countries have similar 'rituals'.



I’m saying you can find Christians that experience the euphoria ambush described across a wide variety of regions, and religions for that matter.


----------



## 660griz (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Going back to what ambush said about religious experiences being able to produce euphoria and the video I just posted who wouldn’t find it fascinating? Notice in that video Hagin primes the audience by explaining that the apostles in Acts must have appeared to be drunk. The audience immediately responded to that suggestion. What’s going on there? Are they all acting? Is it some group psychology phenomena? The people themselves would swear to you on a stack of bibles it was a real spiritual experience. It’s very interesting.



Herd mentality.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

As much fun as atlas is clearly having trying to prove whatever it is he thinks he’s proving, I’ve never heard of being drunk or slain in or by the spirit.  I’ve heard about getting the Holy Spirit but all that meant was a feeling of closeness with God characterized by a feeling of love for and from your fellow Christians and people in general.  It had nothing to do with some intense or exaggerated state of euphoria, fuge states, nobody jumped, flapped like a chicken, hollered, spoke in tongues, rolled on the floor, or even acted strange.  I know that’s disappointing but I hope it helps because it’s the truth.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

660griz said:


> I would like to add a Just curious...
> 
> If Christian God is the only true God, why was Christianity not the first religion? Why was man around for 1000s of years, numerous other religions, and then, Christianity? Wouldn't all other religions come later or be an off-shoot? Wouldn't all the offspring of Noah, etc., be indoctrinated into Christianity?



What if the Christian god was once just one of a pantheon of Canaanite gods?


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> What if the Christian god was once just one of a pantheon of Canaanite gods?


And?  You boys talk in circles.


----------



## 660griz (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> And?  You boys talk in circles.


So, whatever you do, don't answer a question.. LOL We will wait for the tangent.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

660griz said:


> So, whatever you do, don't answer a question.. LOL We will wait for the tangent.


There’s a question?  Once again, if it all turns out to be bunk when I die how am I any worse off than any of you?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Going back to what ambush said about religious experiences being able to produce euphoria and the video I just posted who wouldn’t find it fascinating? Notice in that video Hagin primes the audience by explaining that the apostles in Acts must have appeared to be drunk. The audience immediately responded to that suggestion. What’s going on there? Are they all acting? Is it some group psychology phenomena? The people themselves would swear to you on a stack of bibles it was a real spiritual experience. It’s very interesting. Also very interesting that other Christians that may not share all of their beliefs and experiences get defensive and would rather not talk about it.


* People gravitate to what they want. Hagin is the show they came for and want to be a part of. If it is on the downswing in an area it is because the people are on to the next thing. When it is on the upswing somewhere else it is because that congregation wants it.
40,000 denominations and varying congregations within each one. They are there to hear what they want and need and someone is always eager to oblige.

*Disclaimer:
This by no means implies the people are dumb, uneducated, weak minded or in any way inferior to any person that does not believe and or act as they do.

There are over 2 billion Christians as a whole and they are divided as much as they are united even within the same denominations, churches,  parishes.


----------



## Israel (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> How about the term “slain in the spirit”? Never heard that one either?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm familiar with both, drunk and slain. Including singing (in the spirit), dancing...etc.

In fact this may be a bit having to do with what we both remembered...men so caught up in the spirit they were described as drunk. And though I believe that to be so, I am not as liberal about assigning that term to such a manifestation _from this side. _Then it becomes "a thing." 

Almost able to cross that line of "if you ain't appearing drunk...you ain't in the spirit". Or dancing. Or singing. Or whatever gets adopted to some usage for indication of an experience...of which a thing (as in appearance) is _only one_ manifestation. But I can't, and won't deny it...of at least that one manifestation. Speaking in tongues is often used that way, also.

I'm all for every bit of it, drunk to the most sober expression, but not subject to any man's preference as though "I will only react in such and such a manner...all else is off the table" thereby seeking to position himself to his own approval. 

And that I believe was my tendering of question for what you meant by Pentecostal, for some it seems (on the "christian side") appear ready to disassociate from anything that to either themselves (or perhaps others) could either appear _cartoonish_, or be described as such.

If I could proffer what I might describe to some liking as a "more intelligent/intellectual faith" well, now I'm fixin' to dance and get real sloppy drunk looking happy...cause there ain't. 

Oh, it's not that I have, would, or do refuse fellowship with such (intellectuals), but if _they insist_ upon reception they'd better come prepared with their Mensa card (or the like, I'll accept Stanford Benet scores) cause there ain't even any entertaining if less than that of any insistence by them, upon me, to receive them as sound in the faith if they deny to their liking for a "_more _intellectual faith." 

Then perhaps, we can talk. 

See, even a fool can have standards. 

Smart folks...especially if they have been told (by the world's metrics) they are also of some greater intellect often have some difficulty with what might be termed "the more foolish (appearing) things".  I will not argue they are of necessity (though one easily could) but they cannot be denied. Such is as it is.

There's a stirring of an undercurrent "down here" that is most welcome to my sensing...and that (over my years and experience) is not infrequently absent even among what calls itself "christian". It's as lit up to me as an xmas tree. And it is savory. 

Whether some of you are aware of it as I am, I do not know. But it is there/here, and is a help, nonetheless.

I have no doubt some would deny it...


----------



## 660griz (Mar 31, 2022)

Oh I see. I have to show you first. Ok.


Danuwoa said:


> There’s a question?


 Yes


> Once again, if it all turns out to be bunk when I die how am I any worse off than any of you?


You will not be any worse off when you die.

I think that may be the difference between believers and non-believers. For non-believers, it is about before you die.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

660griz said:


> Oh I see. I have to show you first. Ok.
> Yes
> 
> You will not be any worse off when you die.


Then who cares?


----------



## 660griz (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Then who cares?


I added some as you were posting since I realized I left an easy, 'who cares' out there. No problem though. It would still apply.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

660griz said:


> I added some as you were posting since I realized I left an easy, 'who cares' out there. No problem though. It would still apply.


I disagree.  I’m missing out on absolutely nothing in this phase of life by being a Christian.  What sorts of things does your unbelief allow you to do in your life that I can’t do that would make my life and the lives of people around me better?


----------



## 660griz (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I disagree.  I’m missing out on absolutely nothing in this phase of life by being a Christian.  What sorts of things does your unbelief allow you to do in your life that I can’t do that would make my life and the lives of people around me better?


I might have not been too clear. I meant you could still put 'Who cares' related to what I think the difference was. There was no question.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

660griz said:


> I might have not been too clear. I meant you could still put 'Who cares' related to what I think the difference was. There was not question.


I guess that’s true but I’ve asked you a question.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

bullethead said:


> * People gravitate to what they want. Hagin is the show they came for and want to be a part of. If it is on the downswing in an area it is because the people are on to the next thing. When it is on the upswing somewhere else it is because that congregation wants it.
> 40,000 denominations and varying congregations within each one. They are there to hear what they want and need and someone is always eager to oblige.
> 
> *Disclaimer:
> ...



In this instance they aren’t just observers of the show they are active participants. What do you suppose is going on in their head? Is it deep down in their gut real? Or do they want so badly for it to be real that they play along? The preacher is the conductor but he doesn't get far if there aren't those who take his lead. And we've seen preachers who operate quite effectively as conductors even when behind closed doors they acknowledge it's not genuine.


----------



## Israel (Mar 31, 2022)

660griz said:


> Oh I see. I have to show you first. Ok.
> Yes
> 
> You will not be any worse off when you die.
> ...


Well, believers find this a _good time_ to practice. Life and death.


----------



## 660griz (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I disagree.  I’m missing out on absolutely nothing in this phase of life by being a Christian.


You can't possibly know that. 





> What sorts of things does your unbelief allow you to do in your life that I can’t do that would make my life and the lives of people around me better?


 I have no idea what kind of 'Christian' or person you are so, impossible for me to answer from a few chats with you.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> You weren't holding your chakra right.



It was a trip just a different sort of trip. Seriously.


----------



## ky55 (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Ever heard the term “drunk in the spirit”? Where do you think that comes from?



How about “slain in the spirit”?

Edit:
Sorry, added this before I caught up on the thread.


----------



## 660griz (Mar 31, 2022)

Israel said:


> Well, believers find this a _good time_ to practice. Life and death.


You lumping all believers in that? Don't some live for death?


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> In this instance they aren’t just observers of the show they are active participants. What do you suppose is going on in their head? Is it deep down in their gut real? Or do they want so badly for it to be real that they play along? The preacher is the conductor but he doesn't get far if there aren't those who take his lead. And we've seen preachers who operate quite effectively as conductors even when behind closed doors they acknowledge it's not genuine.


If a person is constantly in search of a mountain top experience they are off base and I don’t  believe they will remain in the faith.  These are the people who are ultimately unfulfilled by and disappointed with Christianity.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

660griz said:


> You can't possibly know that.  I have no idea what kind of 'Christian' or person you are so, impossible for me to answer from a few chats with you.


Seems like you just don’t want to answer.  What do you think is better about life as an atheist?  There’s got to be a reason you prefer it otherwise it seems like you haven’t thought about this at all.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> In this instance they aren’t just observers of the show they are active participants. What do you suppose is going on in their head? Is it deep down in their gut real? Or do they want so badly for it to be real that they play along? The preacher is the conductor but he doesn't get far if there aren't those who take his lead. And we've seen preachers who operate quite effectively as conductors even when behind closed doors they acknowledge it's not genuine.


Agree 100%
Humans all have different tastes, styles, wants, needs. Some are showmen, some are laid back.
Some will dance like nobody is watching and some are happy to sit the dancing out.
I think in the case of these drunk laughers....they are happy and willing to be part of the show.
I didnt see any ricochets affecting anyone farther back when the mojo is thrown. The teacher always knows who does their homework and who doesn't.  In this case it is wise to call on the ones who are willing to participate not the ones hiding in the back.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> ^These folks, atheists or christians?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wish I was that kind of drunk. Would have saved me alot of bail money


----------



## 660griz (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Seems like you just don’t want to answer.  What do you think is better about life as an atheist?  There’s got to be a reason you prefer it otherwise it seems like you haven’t thought about this at all.


Ah, the ol poke em with a stick routine. I like to be more specific but here goes...How would you treat the people you love if this was the only time you will ever see them, touch them, talk to them, enjoy them? How would you look at a sunset, sunrise, wildlife, any natural beauty knowing that this could be the last time you see anything...ever? You don't know because you have 'another life' waiting on you and your loved ones. Wow, look at that, I have actually answered your questions while you have successfully avoided mine. Tangent complete.


----------



## Israel (Mar 31, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> I wish I was that kind of drunk. Would have saved me alot of bail money



Drinks are still being served...but not for money's sake.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

Israel said:


> Gee, does anyone wanna hear my Hagin related testimony?
> 
> Ha ha ha ha ha



I'm in for hearing it. Have one myself. Well sort of. He came to our church in Fort Worth when I was a kid. He had a reputation as a faith healer and they did this thing called prayer cloths. You're familiar with that? He prays for healing over a piece of cloth which is then taken to the person who needs healing that couldn't be there and it is placed on them. I guess it's a conduit for healing power. I would have been maybe 11 years old and I remember all these people had put these handkerchiefs or whatever cloth they had up on the altar before the service. One of his assistants got the microphone and asked whoever had left a plastic bag there to come get it because it wouldn't work with plastic, it had to be cloth. That struck me as so odd at the time that the healing power of god could only be transferred through certain materials.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 31, 2022)

God of Abraham/Jesus or No God of Abraham/Jesus seems pretty black and white.
Until there may be option 3 +.

How many is it wise to prepare for?


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> I wish I was that kind of drunk. Would have saved me alot of bail money



I'm reminded of the movie There Will Be Blood and what Daniel Plainview tells the preacher after the church service where he casts out a spirit.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

660griz said:


> Ah, the ol poke em with a stick routine. I like to be more specific but here goes...How would you treat the people you love if this was the only time you will ever see them, touch them, talk to them, enjoy them? How would you look at a sunset, sunrise, wildlife, any natural beauty knowing that this could be the last time you see anything...ever? You don't know because you have 'another life' waiting on you and your loved ones. Wow, look at that, I have actually answered your questions while you have successfully avoided mine. Tangent complete.


So you think you have a greater appreciation for things on this side of life than I do.  Well there is no way to prove or disprove this.  I can only tell you Im awed by things like the beauty of nature, the love of my little girl, and the life I have with my wife and the friendships that I have.  I thank God for them all but not as often as I should.  

I don’t understand the rest of your post.  I haven’t poked you with a stick any more than you’ve poked me so I do t know where you get the idea that you’re a victim here.  But what is consistent between all the regular posters here on your side of the issue other than NCHillbilly is this unwarranted smugness and eagerness to either take offense at seemingly everything or needless sarcasm and a reluctance to ask questions in good faith.  I don’t just see that with me.  Y’all seem to treat all believers who post here that way even as you claim to want discussion.  Odd to me because Hillbilly doesn’t believe what I believe and he and I are good friends and have had several conversations about religion without it ever once getting even the least bit contentious or sarcastic.


----------



## 660griz (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> There’s got to be a reason you prefer it otherwise it seems like you haven’t thought about this at all.


Forgot about this part. It is kind of confusing. Almost like a not very well thought out jab. 
Prefer it? What in the wide wide world of sports is wrong with you? Does that mean we prefer gravity? I am an atheist because there is no other option to me. 
Haven't thought about it? Boy, I have probably thought more about this than you could ever fathom. Why would anyone not want Heaven to be real? At one time in my life, I also wanted Santa, Easter Bunny, and the tooth fairy to be real. Why do some prefer them not to be real?


----------



## 660griz (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> So you think you have a greater appreciation for things on this side of life than I do.  Well there is no way to prove or disprove this. ....



Really? Shocker! You wanted an answer though. Sure didn't want you to think I was avoiding an answer.


----------



## 660griz (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I haven’t poked you with a stick





> Seems like you just don’t want to answer.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

660griz said:


> Forgot about this part. It is kind of confusing. Almost like a not very well thought out jab.
> Prefer it? What in the wide wide world of sports is wrong with you? Does that mean we prefer gravity? I am an atheist because there is no other option to me.
> Haven't thought about it? Boy, I have probably thought more about this than you could ever fathom. Why would anyone not want Heaven to be real? At one time in my life, I also wanted Santa, Easter Bunny, and the tooth fairy to be real. Why do some prefer them not to be real?


It doesn’t take much at all to get you to start snapping.  Maybe atheism isn’t for you.


----------



## 660griz (Mar 31, 2022)

Israel said:


> but practicing dying


I am pretty sure I will get that right the first time.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

See post #398.


----------



## 660griz (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> It doesn’t take much at all to get you to start snapping.  Maybe atheism isn’t for you.


LOL
You are hilarious.
I don't think you know what 'snappiing' is.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

660griz said:


> LOL
> You are hilarious.
> I don't think you know what 'snappiing' is.


Thanks?


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

660griz said:


> LOL
> You are hilarious.
> I don't think you know what 'snappiing' is.


I just want to point out who’s on the tangent here and who decided the topic at hand wasn’t enough and wanted to argue personal stuff.


----------



## 660griz (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Thanks?


You're welcome?


----------



## 660griz (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I just want to point out who’s on the tangent here and who decided the topic at hand wasn’t enough and wanted to argue personal stuff.


Noted?


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> So you think you have a greater appreciation for things on this side of life than I do.  Well there is no way to prove or disprove this.  I can only tell you Im awed by things like the beauty of nature, the love of my little girl, and the life I have with my wife and the friendships that I have.  I thank God for them all but not as often as I should.
> 
> I don’t understand the rest of your post.  I haven’t poked you with a stick any more than you’ve poked me so I do t know where you get the idea that you’re a victim here.  But what is consistent between all the regular posters here on your side of the issue other than NCHillbilly is this unwarranted smugness and eagerness to either take offense at seemingly everything or needless sarcasm and a reluctance to ask questions in good faith.  I don’t just see that with me.  Y’all seem to treat all believers who post here that way even as you claim to want discussion.  Odd to me because Hillbilly doesn’t believe what I believe and he and I are good friends and have had several conversations about religion without it ever once getting even the least bit contentious or sarcastic.





> Y’all seem to treat all believers who post here that way even as you claim to want discussion.


There are believers here that have participated for years. Not a one of them has ever struck me as docile little whipping posts who were gluttons for punishment.
Not sure why you seem to see them that way.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

660griz said:


> Noted?


You ok now?  You feel better?


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> There are believers here that have participated for years. Not a one of them has ever struck me as docile little whipping posts who were gluttons for punishment.
> Not sure why you seem to see them that way.


If that’s what you took from that post either I said it wrong or you didn’t read it right.


----------



## 660griz (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> You ok now?  You feel better?


Felt pretty fantastic all day. Thanks for asking. You?


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

660griz said:


> Felt pretty fantastic all day. Thanks for asking. You?


I’m not the one getting mad.


----------



## jrickman (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> So you think you have a greater appreciation for things on this side of life than I do.  Well there is no way to prove or disprove this.  I can only tell you Im awed by things like the beauty of nature, the love of my little girl, and the life I have with my wife and the friendships that I have.  I thank God for them all but not as often as I should.
> 
> I don’t understand the rest of your post.  I haven’t poked you with a stick any more than you’ve poked me so I do t know where you get the idea that you’re a victim here.  But what is consistent between all the regular posters here on your side of the issue other than NCHillbilly is this unwarranted smugness and eagerness to either take offense at seemingly everything or needless sarcasm and a reluctance to ask questions in good faith.  I don’t just see that with me.  Y’all seem to treat all believers who post here that way even as you claim to want discussion.  Odd to me because Hillbilly doesn’t believe what I believe and he and I are good friends and have had several conversations about religion without it ever once getting even the least bit contentious or sarcastic.



I've always felt that there is a clear dividing line between non-believers. The terms atheist and agnostic are often used somewhat interchangeably, but in my experience you can distinguish between them by observing how they interact with believers. So regardless of what they describe themselves as, I lump them in two groups based on how they interact with us. Agnostics will tend to be calm and rational, participating in the discussion cordially, and generally open to the reality that intelligent people can completely disagree on something that neither of them can prove themselves correct about, without resorting to any hard feelings or contention. Atheists on the other hand, will typically be smug, condescending, and have a fervor for making you join their cause that rivals anything seen in the evangelical world. Some will have more scripture memorized than some Christians, to use as a whatabout debate tactic. Personally I believe it is an expression of insecurity, and I have a pretty good idea where that insecurity really comes from, but there is no point in even discussing it.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Seems like you just don’t want to answer.  What do you think is better about life as an atheist?  There’s got to be a reason you prefer it otherwise it seems like you haven’t thought about this at all.



I'll throw my two cents out there. Once you're dead I don't think it matters one way or the other. You're gone never to return and won't know any difference. But in life what we believe to be true matters to us and those around us. That was brought home on 9/11. You can go through life believing a lie and be perfectly genuine in your belief and still be a good person and life a good fulfilling life. Maybe the cost is no more than you missed out on some tithe money and Sunday fishing. Maybe the cost is higher. It really depends on what a person believes and does with those beliefs.

I do think there are certain principles that hold true for our existence and one that is overarching is that there tends to be a negative consequence or at least an elevated risk of a negative consequence when our understanding and actions don't comport with reality. There's a beauty and justice in that. It's not an indifferent matter to believe what isn't true, even when we find comfort or utility in doing so.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

jrickman said:


> I've always felt that there is a clear dividing line between non-believers. The terms atheist and agnostic are often used somewhat interchangeably, but in my experience you can distinguish between them by observing how they interact with believers. So regardless of what they describe themselves as, I lump them in two groups based on how they interact with us. Agnostics will tend to be calm and rational, participating in the discussion cordially, and generally open to the reality that intelligent people can completely disagree on something that neither of them can prove themselves correct about, without resorting to any hard feelings or contention. Atheists on the other hand, will typically be smug, condescending, and have a fervor for making you join their cause that rivals anything seen in the evangelical world. Some will have more scripture memorized than some Christians, to use as a whatabout debate tactic. Personally I believe it is an expression of insecurity, and I have a pretty good idea where that insecurity really comes from, but there is no point in even discussing it.


Agree 100%.  Good post.


----------



## 660griz (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I’m not the one getting mad.


I haven't gotten mad all day either.  If all of my words were spoken instead of typed,  you would be able to 'hear' the smile and my voice would never raise. Nothing to get mad about.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> I'll throw my two cents out there. Once you're dead I don't think it matters one way or the other. You're gone never to return and won't know any difference. But in life what we believe to be true matters to us and those around us. That was brought home on 9/11. You can go through life believing a lie and be perfectly genuine in your belief and still be a good person and life a good fulfilling life. Maybe the cost is no more than you missed out on some tithe money and Sunday fishing. Maybe the cost is higher. It really depends on what a person believes and does with those beliefs.
> 
> I do think there are certain principles that hold true for our existence and one that is overarching is that there tends to be a negative consequence or at least an elevated risk of a negative consequence when our understanding and actions don't comport with reality. There's a beauty and justice in that. It's not an indifferent matter to believe what isn't true, even when we find comfort or utility in doing so.


I really appreciate that answer, man.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

660griz said:


> I haven't gotten mad all day either.  If all of my words were spoken instead of typed,  you would be able to 'hear' the smile and my voice would never raise. Nothing to get mad about.


I have a feeling that face to face you’re probably a lot more docile.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> I’m saying you can find Christians that experience the euphoria ambush described across a wide variety of regions, and religions for that matter.



They hook their heads up to monitors and it looks like they've taken DMT or psilocybin; if you believe in that kind of stuff.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> If that’s what you took from that post either I said it wrong or you didn’t read it right.


Either one is possible.
Here's how I read it -


> Y’all seem to treat all believers who post here that way even as you claim to want discussion.


If thats how we treat believers and there are believers here , most whom have participated for years, .....  you are commenting on them just as much as your are commenting on us.
Something to consider - maybe what you are getting is a less than friendly attitude from us due to your less then friendly attitude toward us?


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Either one is possible.
> Here's how I read it -
> 
> If thats how we treat believers and there are believers here , most whom have participated for years, .....  you are commenting on them just as much as your are commenting on us.
> Something to consider - maybe what you are getting is a less than friendly attitude from us due to your less then friendly attitude toward us?


Entirely possible.  I don’t remember who was a jerk first.  Might have been me.  But y’all seem awful sensitive with the exception of Hillbilly.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 31, 2022)

jrickman said:


> I've always felt that there is a clear dividing line between non-believers. The terms atheist and agnostic are often used somewhat interchangeably, but in my experience you can distinguish between them by observing how they interact with believers. So regardless of what they describe themselves as, I lump them in two groups based on how they interact with us. Agnostics will tend to be calm and rational, participating in the discussion cordially, and generally open to the reality that intelligent people can completely disagree on something that neither of them can prove themselves correct about, without resorting to any hard feelings or contention. Atheists on the other hand, will typically be smug, condescending, and have a fervor for making you join their cause that rivals anything seen in the evangelical world. Some will have more scripture memorized than some Christians, to use as a whatabout debate tactic. Personally I believe it is an expression of insecurity, and I have a pretty good idea where that insecurity really comes from, but there is no point in even discussing it.


True and it could be mentioned about why certain people need to worship due to a variety of issues/reasons but that isn't worth discussing either.


----------



## 660griz (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I have a feeling that face to face you’re probably a lot more docile.


Now, what exactly about my post made you post this?
I said:





> I haven't gotten mad all day either. If all of my words were spoken instead of typed, you would be able to 'hear' the smile and my voice would never raise. Nothing to get mad about.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> It’s not a regional thing. I can show you videos like that in Korea, Africa and Latin America.


I mean as far as percentages of Christians who are into more lively religion. There was a preacher died in my county a few years ago from a rattlesnake bite. You don't see much of that in Iowa or Nebraska, I bet.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

660griz said:


> Now, what exactly about my post made you post this?
> I said:


I’m sure you’re harmless.


----------



## jrickman (Mar 31, 2022)

bullethead said:


> True and it could be mentioned about why certain people need to worship due to a variety of issues/reasons but that isn't worth discussing either.



Oh trust me, that insecurity is the very same one for both atheists and believers.


----------



## 660griz (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I’m sure you’re harmless.


I am. Never said otherwise.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

jrickman said:


> Oh trust me, that insecurity is the very same one for both atheists and believers.


Atheists worship things too.  Money, the government, celebrities, it varies from person to person.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I mean as far as percentages of Christians who are into more lively religion. There was a preacher died in my county a few years ago from a rattlesnake bite. You don't see much of that in Iowa or Nebraska, I bet.



I would agree the snake handling thing is regional.


----------



## 660griz (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Atheists worship things too.  Money, the government, celebrities, it varies from person to person.


I don't know any atheist but me so, I can only speak for me. 
I don't worship anything.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

660griz said:


> I don't know any atheist but me so, I can only speak for me.
> I don't worship anything.


Odd that you felt the need to tell me that.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Entirely possible.  I don’t remember who was a jerk first.  Might have been me.  But y’all seem awful sensitive with the exception of Hillbilly.


Its a sensitive subject. Probably one of the most sensitive subjects there is. People feel strongly about it one way or the other.
Visit some of the other A/A/A type sites on the Internets where they really go at it. This is Mr. Rogers Neighborhood compared to them. I think thats because none of us here despise the other regardless of our differences of opinions.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> I'll throw my two cents out there. Once you're dead I don't think it matters one way or the other. You're gone never to return and won't know any difference. But in life what we believe to be true matters to us and those around us. That was brought home on 9/11. You can go through life believing a lie and be perfectly genuine in your belief and still be a good person and life a good fulfilling life. Maybe the cost is no more than you missed out on some tithe money and Sunday fishing. Maybe the cost is higher. It really depends on what a person believes and does with those beliefs.
> 
> I do think there are certain principles that hold true for our existence and one that is overarching is that there tends to be a negative consequence or at least an elevated risk of a negative consequence when our understanding and actions don't comport with reality. There's a beauty and justice in that. It's not an indifferent matter to believe what isn't true, even when we find comfort or utility in doing so.



I think this is right, but I witnessed my father becoming a better person when he became immersed in the Christian religion.  He was never much interested in study or intellectual pursuits.  I don't ever remember him reading a single book other then the Bible later in life.  I watched him minister to inmates where he was a jail guard and he seemed to change their lives as well.  Sometimes we would run into them around town after being released and they would tell him how he changed their lives.

People are different, with different temperaments, abilities and interests.  My father and the people he ministered to would not have benefited from the type of analysis and reflection that appeals to me.  Imagine walking into a jail ministry and talking about Utilitarian Altruism.  I prefer that all my beliefs comport with observable reality and that I don't have to contradict things in my mind to maintain my model of the world.  This way of being will leave many deep questions unanswered and I have made peace with that.


----------



## 660griz (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Odd that you felt the need to tell me that.


This wasn't a PM. I told everyone. Since you told everyone atheist worship things, I told them that is not true for all atheist. Really not that odd.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

Absolute worst and most dangerous part of religious belief:

Divine Revelation.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I think this is right, but I witnessed my father becoming a better person when he became immersed in the Christian religion.  He was never much interested in study or intellectual pursuits.  I don't ever remember him reading a single book other then the Bible later in life.  I watched him minister to inmates where he was a jail guard and he seemed to change their lives as well.  Sometimes we would run into them around town after being released and they would tell him how he changed their lives.
> 
> People are different, with different temperaments, abilities and interests.  My father and the people he ministered to would not have benefited from the type of analysis and reflection that appeals to me.  Imagine walking into a jail ministry and talking about Utilitarian Altruism.  I prefer that all my beliefs comport with observable reality and that I don't have to contradict things in my mind to maintain my model of the world.  This way of being will leave many deep questions unanswered and I have made peace with that.





> I witnessed my father becoming a better person when he became immersed in the Christian religion.  He was never much interested in study or intellectual pursuits.  I don't ever remember him reading a single book other then the Bible later in life.  I watched him minister to inmates where he was a jail guard and he seemed to change their lives as well.  Sometimes we would run into them around town after being released and they would tell him how he changed their lives.


Thats pretty interesting. Dont think Ive ever heard/seen you mention that.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Thats pretty interesting. Don't think Ive ever heard/seen you mention that.



There were things about him that became worse.  His disinterest in intellectualism and rationality became adversarial.  His once complex and interesting, if not slightly volatile personality became rote and predictable.  I knew what he thought about every topic and there were no longer any deep philosophical discussions to be had with him, which was unfortunate since the rest of my family are devoted to the pursuit of knowledge.  We would get to discussing something contentious and timely and he would excuse himself from the rest of us and go read the Bible. 

In retrospect, I don't think he ever had good tools to form a sound moral construct.  He found the oldest and arguably dependable life hack available to that end and it worked for him.


----------



## Israel (Mar 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Absolute worst and most dangerous part of religious belief:
> 
> Divine Revelation.


But are you sure? 

And if so, how?


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

Israel said:


> But are you sure?
> 
> And if so, how?



Because it's a common excuse for some of the most heinous acts ever committed.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

Israel said:


> But are you sure?
> 
> And if so, how?



It's beyond reproach, unssailable by reason or rationality, instills certainty to the point of death and needs no other explanation than itself.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

It's also completely dependent on the whim of the receiver (whether they admit it or not).  Gosh... There's allot wrong with it.

It's the ultimate "Muh lived experience".


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Entirely possible.  I don’t remember who was a jerk first.  Might have been me.  But y’all seem awful sensitive with the exception of Hillbilly.


Man, I done went off and cried three times.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> There were things about him that became worse.  His disinterest in intellectualism and rationality became adversarial.  His once complex and interesting, if not slightly volatile personality became rote and predictable.  I knew what he thought about every topic and there were no longer any deep philosophical discussions to be had with him, which was unfortunate since the rest of my family are devoted to the pursuit of knowledge.  We would get to discussing something contentious and timely and he would excuse himself from the rest of us and go read the Bible.
> 
> In retrospect, I don't think he ever had good tools to form a sound moral construct.  He found the oldest and arguably dependable life hack available to that end and it worked for him.


I gues its the yin and yang thing. He lost this and gained that (to the prisoners advantage).


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> I gues its the yin and yang thing. He lost this and gained that (to the prisoners advantage).



I'm starting to think that on average, most people will not benefit from eschewing some sort of religious belief. I've been persuaded that the impulse towards it must have some evolutionary utility to have persisted this long.  There's some claims being made that with recession of traditional religiosity, people have replaced it with things like Wokeness or some other secular dogmatism.  I'd like to see a better replacement on offer and am working on it as a pet project.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> In this instance they aren’t just observers of the show they are active participants. What do you suppose is going on in their head? Is it deep down in their gut real? Or do they want so badly for it to be real that they play along? The preacher is the conductor but he doesn't get far if there aren't those who take his lead. And we've seen preachers who operate quite effectively as conductors even when behind closed doors they acknowledge it's not genuine.


Or do they want it so badly that it becomes deep down in their gut real? (as opposed to "playing along"?
Really interesting questions that Im not sure how they could ever be answered.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> It's beyond reproach, unssailable by reason or rationality, instills certainty to the point of death and needs no other explanation than itself.



And it absolves one of any personal accountability. Like that video I posted of the cult leader who took his son's wife. It was shocking and such a burden for him to bear but he had no choice but to obey God.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I'm starting to think that on average, most people will not benefit from eschewing some sort of religious belief. I've been persuaded that the impulse towards it must have some evolutionary utility to have persisted this long.  There's some claims being made that with recession of traditional religiosity, people have replaced it with things like Wokeness or some other secular dogmatism.  I'd like to see a better replacement on offer and am working on it as a pet project.


Without actually giving it deep thought/off the top of my head, Im guessing it may be like you described with your Dad. Benefit of this at the cost of that (on average).


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I'm starting to think that on average, most people will not benefit from eschewing some sort of religious belief. I've been persuaded that the impulse towards it must have some evolutionary utility to have persisted this long.  There's some claims being made that with recession of traditional religiosity, people have replaced it with things like Wokeness or some other secular dogmatism.  I'd like to see a better replacement on offer and am working on it as a pet project.



I'm inclined to agree and it's a depressing thought. Nietzsche saw it coming. If the choice is between christianity or nihilism I'd rather see people choose christianity but surely there are better options than either.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

I bet that every proclaimed Atheist or Agnostic in the world would believe in God if sufficient evidence were produced.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Never gotten high from church.  Never met anybody who has.  This sounds like one of those things atheists like to believe.



then again that "speaking in tongues" thing sure seems like people are losing their minds to some degree, at least temporarily. BTW linguistic experts have studied the phenomena and "speaking in tongues" is gibberish, and not even on par with "authentic frontier gibberish" from Blazing Saddles!


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> I'm inclined to agree and it's a depressing thought. Nietzsche saw it coming. If the choice is between christianity or nihilism I'd rather see people choose christianity but surely there are better options than either.


Yeah nihilism is something I cant quite grasp. I kind of dont see how a human could even accomplish it.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> I'm inclined to agree and it's a depressing thought. Nietzsche saw it coming. If the choice is between christianity or nihilism I'd rather see people choose christianity but surely there are better options than either.



It seems like a simple task.  Enumerate all the good things about religion and get rid of all the bad parts.  I think Universalists might be on the right track.  If only they didn't seemingly need to align with those aforementioned corrupt secular dogmas.....


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I bet that every proclaimed Atheist or Agnostic in the world would believe in God if sufficient evidence were produced.


I could if there was sufficient evidence.
Then we would have to move on to is this God or god as claimed it is to be.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I bet that every proclaimed Atheist or Agnostic in the world would believe in God if sufficient evidence were produced.



You will be able to win that bet.  They WILL believe in God.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Yeah nihilism is something I cant quite grasp. I kind of dont see how a human could even accomplish it.



Someone recently told me nihilism is when destruction seems like progress. It seems like that is where the world is headed, at least those parts of the world that once comprised Christendom.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Yeah nihilism is something I cant quite grasp. I kind of dont see how a human could even accomplish it.



It's not that hard.  Try to explain why anything matters; why anything really, REALLY matters.  Why is something better than nothing.  Without some a priori assumption about a value, what Peterson would call the Logos, there's no sufficient answer.  

For myself, I just know that I'm here now and I am moved by forces that I don't completely understand.  Some of it is in my control, so I control it in the way that seems right.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Mar 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I bet that every proclaimed Atheist or Agnostic in the world would believe in God if sufficient evidence were produced.



You are probably right, but "sufficient evidence" will never be produced, because it takes_ faith_ to interpret events as "sufficient evidence." And since the faithful believers don't really need evidence, this is a catch-22 situation of sorts IMHO. 

The only way *EVERYONE *would believe in God is if God *completely* switched up the way he currently does business and do something totally, obviously, empirically 
*REAL *that requires no faith to interpret accurately. Something that defies the laws of physics/science/math/etc. in what can only be of a an undeniably supernatural nature.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Someone recently told me nihilism is when destruction seems like progress. It seems like that is where the world is headed, at least those parts of the world that once comprised Christendom.




I don't think that's quite right.  That's placing value on nothingness. I always thought of nihilism as valuing nothing.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> You are probably right, but "sufficient evidence" will never be produced, because it takes_ faith_ to interpret events as "sufficient evidence." And since the faithful believers don't really need evidence, this is a catch-22 situation of sorts IMHO.
> 
> The only way *EVERYONE *would believe in God is if God *completely* switched up the way he currently does business and do something totally, obviously, empirically
> *REAL *that requires no faith to interpret accurately. Something that defies the laws of physics/science/math/etc. in what can only be of a an undeniably supernatural nature.



He could even just use the method that believers claim he used on them: "poke" their hearts, every last one of them in the whole world.  But that doesn't appear to be part of his plan.

(Censor didn't like my Biblical term)


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> You will be able to win that bet.  They WILL believe in God.



He already told us that not all will hear the call, but it's also his desire that none suffer......Go figure.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> It's not that hard.  Try to explain why anything matters; why anything really, REALLY matters.  Why is something better than nothing.  Without some a priori assumption about a value, what Peterson would call the Logos, there's no sufficient answer.
> 
> For myself, I just know that I'm here now and I am moved by forces that I don't completely understand.  Some of it is in my control, so I control it in the way that seems right.


Let me back up and say.. I dont really know squat about nihilism. So from that pretty ignorant starting point, when I read something like this -


> is a philosophy, or family of views within philosophy, that rejects general or fundamental aspects of human existence, such as objective truth, knowledge, morality, values or meaning. Different nihilist positions hold variously that human values are baseless, that life is meaningless, that knowledge is impossible, or that some set of entities do not exist or are meaningless or pointless.


It strikes me that someone would need to be brain dead and emotionless to accomplish that line of thought.
But again Im starting at a point of ignorance on the subject.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> It seems like a simple task.  Enumerate all the good things about religion and get rid of all the bad parts.  I think Universalists might be on the right track.  If only they didn't seemingly need to align with those aforementioned corrupt secular dogmas.....



I don't believe it is a simple task. It's not just the values and beliefs in how to live that are lost. It's the habits that focus one toward incorporating those values. It's the social structure that provided cohesiveness and unity towards a shared purpose and sense of community. And probably much more that I'm not even thinking of. The ancient Greeks had schools of philosophy to provide tutelage. What do we have?


----------



## oldfella1962 (Mar 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> He could even just use the method that believers claim he used on them: "poke" their hearts, every last one of them in the whole world.  But that doesn't appear to be part of his plan.
> 
> (Censor didn't like my Biblical term)



HA! Took me a few seconds but I think that I know what biblical term you used. 
Sorry but even when used as a verb rather than a noun, it's still considered naughty.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> I don't believe it is a simple task. It's not just the values and beliefs in how to live that are lost. It's the habits that focus one toward incorporating those values. It's the social structure that provided cohesiveness and unity towards a shared purpose and sense of community. And probably much more that I'm not even thinking of. The ancient Greeks had schools of philosophy to provide tutelage. What do we have?



GON?


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 31, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> You will be able to win that bet.  They WILL believe in God.


What if they believe in a god but not the Christian God?
Is the bet won or lost?


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Let me back up and say.. I dont really know squat about nihilism. So from that pretty ignorant starting point, when I read something like this -
> 
> It strikes me that someone would need to be brain dead and emotionless to accomplish that line of thought.
> But again Im starting at a point of ignorance on the subject.




Nah.  Get mad.  Fall in love.  Love God with all your heart.  What happened that you can point to that was better or worse if none of that, if none of anything, ever happened?  Where's the tally card showing that suffering is better than pleasure or better than nothing at all?


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 31, 2022)

[QUOTE="ambush80, post: 13325032, member: 23393"]He already told us that not all will hear the call, but it's also his desire that none suffer......Go figure.[/QUOTE]
Dang details....


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> GON?



Yeah we're pretty much screwed then.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 31, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> HA! Took me a few seconds but I think that I know what biblical term you used.
> Sorry but even when used as a verb rather than a noun, it's still considered naughty.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> GON?




It was just a joke but kind of not.  Community and kinship and sense of belonging, art, culture, philosophy can be built from scratch.  It's good that we have some templates already, though.  They just need tweaking.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> What if they believe in a god but not the Christian God?
> Is the bet won or lost?



Bad boy.

You should know the answer to that by now......


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Bad boy.
> 
> You should know the answer to that by now......


When it comes to betting I want to know all the angles


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> When it comes to betting I want to know all the angles



What do you think would happen if God came down and said "All of you were partially right, even you atheists, but you were like blind men touching an elephant, trying to describe what it was.  Psyche!!!!!"?


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> then again that "speaking in tongues" thing sure seems like people are losing their minds to some degree, at least temporarily. BTW linguistic experts have studied the phenomena and "speaking in tongues" is gibberish, and not even on par with "authentic frontier gibberish" from Blazing Saddles!



I believe it to be based on a certain template.

"Heyyyyy abbbibbiddity bleyyyy bleeyyy, Th th th th That's all folks!!"


----------



## Israel (Mar 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> It's also completely dependent on the whim of the receiver (whether they admit it or not).  Gosh... There's allot wrong with it.
> 
> It's the ultimate "Muh lived experience".



It's also completely dependent on the whim of the receiver (whether they admit it or not)

How much _is not accountable_ to that?


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

Israel said:


> It's also completely dependent on the whim of the receiver (whether they admit it or not)
> 
> How much _is not accountable_ to that?



The stuff Da Debbil made me do?


----------



## Israel (Mar 31, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Let me back up and say.. I dont really know squat about nihilism. So from that pretty ignorant starting point, when I read something like this -
> 
> It strikes me that someone would need to be brain dead and emotionless to accomplish that line of thought.
> But again Im starting at a point of ignorance on the subject.


But the moment a nihilist opens his mouth to speak...


----------



## Israel (Mar 31, 2022)

or write.


----------



## Israel (Mar 31, 2022)

or choose the torn jeans over the intact jeans...


----------



## Israel (Mar 31, 2022)

I suppose nihilism is as much a religion as the next...maybe the strictest? Think of how many faux pas could possibly be committed to lose ones good standing as a nihilist! 














too nuanced?


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> He already told us that not all will hear the call, but it's also his desire that none suffer......Go figure.



Where did you read that at?


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

Israel said:


> But the moment a nihilist opens his mouth to speak...



...nothing comes out?


I crack myself up.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Where did you read that at?



Uhhhh... the Bible?


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Man, I done went off and cried three times.


??You don’t have feelings.


----------



## Israel (Mar 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> ...nothing comes out?
> 
> 
> I crack myself up.


LOL...


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

Israel said:


> I suppose nihilism is as much a religion as the next...maybe the strictest? Think of how many faux pas could possibly be committed to lose ones good standing as a nihilist!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nihilism is like a religion:

1.
2.
3.

Please fill some blanks.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> then again that "speaking in tongues" thing sure seems like people are losing their minds to some degree, at least temporarily. BTW linguistic experts have studied the phenomena and "speaking in tongues" is gibberish, and not even on par with "authentic frontier gibberish" from Blazing Saddles!


I personally think speaking in tongues is complete and utter nonsense.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> ??You don’t have feelings.



I think I saw him cry when they said they were out of the Heffeweiss Summer Ale.  He tried to hide it.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

Israel said:


> LOL...



I love your donkey avatar. Does he talk?  Queen's English or Aramaic?


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Its a sensitive subject. Probably one of the most sensitive subjects there is. People feel strongly about it one way or the other.
> Visit some of the other A/A/A type sites on the Internets where they really go at it. This is Mr. Rogers Neighborhood compared to them. I think thats because none of us here despise the other regardless of our differences of opinions.


I get annoyed by the cattiness of some people here and it bugs me when people say things that are flat out untrue but then strut around like they’ve made some great point but I can’t imagine caring all that much what some guy on the internet thinks about my beliefs.


----------



## Israel (Mar 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> ...nothing comes out?
> 
> 
> I crack myself up.



"Why I am A Nihilist"









I'll take the audio book


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I think I saw him cry when they said they were out of the Heffeweiss Summer Ale.  He tried to hide it.


I can believe that.  I think I almost made him cry once when I pointed out he was almost out of Jim Beam.


----------



## Israel (Mar 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I love your donkey avatar. Does he talk?  Queen's English or Aramaic?


If he speaks Aramaic he's done so without knowing...but verily I have heard recordings of myself.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

660griz said:


> This wasn't a PM. I told everyone. Since you told everyone atheist worship things, I told them that is not true for all atheist. Really not that odd.


Man I think that’s great.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I can believe that.  I think I almost made him cry once when I pointed out he was almost out of Jim Beam.




Dangit.  Now you made me cry.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I get annoyed by the cattiness of some people here and it bugs me when people say things that are flat out untrue but then strut around like they’ve made some great point but I can’t imagine caring all that much what some guy on the internet thinks about my beliefs.



That's the biggest problem.  You can't hear people's inflection.  It poisons many a conversation.  Same with texting.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> That's the biggest problem.  You can't hear people's inflection.  It poisons many a conversation.  Same with texting.


No doubt.  Several people that I’ve met from the board have told me, “Man I thought you were a blankety blank before I met you but you’re actually a pretty dang good guy.”


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

Israel said:


> If he speaks Aramaic he's done so without knowing...but verily I have heard recordings of myself.



Bray tell.....


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> No doubt.  Several people that I’ve met from the board have told me, “Man I thought you were a blankety blank before I met you but you’re actually a pretty dang good guy.”



When I think people are being hostile, I try to read them in Elmer Fudd voice, or some such.  Actually, come to think of it, I usually superimpose a Sam Harris voice if I want to take someone seriously.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Uhhhh... the Bible?



Uhhh…can you give a chapter or verse?


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Uhhh…can you give a chapter or verse?



You try first then we'll compare notes.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> You try first then we'll compare notes.



I’m gonna put the burden of proof on the guy making the claim. Either post up or suffer a debate defeat.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I’m gonna put the burden of proof on the guy making the claim. Either post up or suffer a debate defeat.



I quit. You win.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I get annoyed by the cattiness of some people here and it bugs me when people say things that are flat out untrue but then strut around like they’ve made some great point but I can’t imagine caring all that much what some guy on the internet thinks about my beliefs.


Its an internet forum. Goes with the territory. Take a chill pill and dont converse with someone if they bug you that much. Thats what Ive learned to do anyway. The other option is to just stay away 
If an A/A says something that is flat out untrue battle them with facts and logic. We hate it when that happens.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Its an internet forum. Goes with the territory. Take a chill pill and dont converse with someone if they bug you that much. Thats what Ive learned to do anyway. The other option is to just stay away
> If an A/A says something that is flat out untrue battle them with facts and logic. We hate it when that happens.


I have.  But some people are impervious to logic and facts.  They respond with statements that begin like this, “It’s not my fault that you interpret my statements as not being true…”. Not much you can do with that.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I quit. You win.



Let’s try it another way. I say Christianity is AVAILABLE to everyone. Not a private club.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 31, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I’m gonna put the burden of proof on the guy making the claim. Either post up or suffer a debate defeat.


Now wait a minute, we get slammed for doing exactly the same thing......


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Let’s try it another way. I say Christianity is AVAILABLE to everyone. Not a private club.



Seems like you looked up what I suggested, despite not acknowledging it.  That indicates to me that you intend to be a somewhat honest, good faith conversational partner.

This will devolve into a discussion of scriptural interpretation.  I don't mind that if you don't.  I haven't been in here in a while and you and I haven't ever crossed paths so we might have a good conversation and learn something from each other. Shall we?

I usually take a Socratic approach to these discussions and ask questions but I'll try a different tack this time.

The Bible story clearly states that Pharaoh had his heart hardened by God.  That means that he was incapable of receiving God's grace regardless of if he may have wanted to.  The Bible also talks about the Vessels of Wrath.  These are people designed not to be saved; their life's purpose is to die and go to He11.  It seems their purpose is to act as some kind of example or measuring stick for the Elect to judge themselves by.  The Elect IS a private club.



The reason why I'm interested in having these conversations is that I think it best for myself and my daughter if the world she will inherit is filled with people who know how to reason and be humble in their pursuit of truth.  I'm fighting against the notion of Divine Revelation in all it's forms because I think it's supremely destructive.  I'm trying to change your mind.  I don't think you have to lose your faith, but I want you to contextualize it so that it doesn't become a regressive force in the world.  It's pious certainty and unwillingness to examine what we believe that causes much of the conflict that I see.  You see it in the Libtards and the Wokes so you know what I say is real.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Mar 31, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> You will be able to win that bet.  They WILL believe in God.



*CURVEBALL ALERT! *Riddle me this Batman: I'm paraphrasing here, but the bible says that every knee shall bow (on judgement day perhaps?) and admit that Jesus/God is real before the formerly non-believing get tossed into the flames.

*IF THAT IS THE CASE  *then does that include Jews too?   Yes Jews, the very religion that Jesus was born into and was referenced/acknowledged by Jesus in many cases throughout the NT. So would God do this to "his chosen people"?  

Would God throw his chosen people into eternal torture because they didn't believe in the "newer/different" part of their religion - Judaism - that has existed for centuries (perhaps millennia) prior to the birth of Jesus?
Should every faithful & practicing Jew have jumped on the Jesus train once word got out that he was the real deal? I just can't imagine why they would not have unless for whatever reason God hardened millions of Jewish hearts, and that sounds farfetched. 

Also, the Holy Trinity consists of the Father/God, the Son/Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
So 1/3 of the Trinity (Jesus) that the Jews reject will toss them into the hot place while they are still worshipping the 1/3 of the Trinity (God) that they do actually still believe in. This blows my mind!


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Now wait a minute, we get slammed for doing exactly the same thing......




The "proof" will ultimately be "I know what He has done in my life"; the ultimate Lived Experience claim.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> *CURVEBALL ALERT! *Riddle me this Batman: I'm paraphrasing here, but the bible says that every knee shall bow (on judgement day perhaps?) and admit that Jesus/God is real before the formerly non-believing get tossed into the flames.
> 
> *IF THAT IS THE CASE  *then does that include Jews too?   Yes Jews, the very religion that Jesus was born into and was referenced/acknowledged by Jesus in many cases throughout the NT. So would God do this to "his chosen people"?
> 
> ...



I use the same methodology applied to math, "I don't understand it but I know it works".  I still don't understand how the value of Pi is infinite but a circle occupies a finite space.   C'mon, man!!!!


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> *CURVEBALL ALERT! *Riddle me this Batman: I'm paraphrasing here, but the bible says that every knee shall bow (on judgement day perhaps?) and admit that Jesus/God is real before the formerly non-believing get tossed into the flames.
> 
> *IF THAT IS THE CASE  *then does that include Jews too?   Yes Jews, the very religion that Jesus was born into and was referenced/acknowledged by Jesus in many cases throughout the NT. So would God do this to "his chosen people"?
> 
> ...


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

Isaiah 1:18

18“Come now, let us reason together,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they will be as white as snow; though they are as red as crimson, they will become like wool.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> *CURVEBALL ALERT! *Riddle me this Batman: I'm paraphrasing here, but the bible says that every knee shall bow (on judgement day perhaps?) and admit that Jesus/God is real before the formerly non-believing get tossed into the flames.
> 
> *IF THAT IS THE CASE  *then does that include Jews too?   Yes Jews, the very religion that Jesus was born into and was referenced/acknowledged by Jesus in many cases throughout the NT. So would God do this to "his chosen people"?
> 
> ...


No I don’t believe the Jews are being sent down yonder.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> The "proof" will ultimately be "I know what He has done in my life"; the ultimate Lived Experience claim.



I used to think that was the ultimate unassailable argument as a believer.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> No I don’t believe the Jews are being sent down yonder.



Why not?


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> I used to think that was the ultimate unassailable argument as a believer.



What have you lost since you gave up your faith?


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Why not?


The God’s chosen people thing to start with.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> No I don’t believe the Jews are being sent down yonder.


How about the American Indians, the Hindus, the Buddhists, Norsemen, Greeks, Babylonians, Bushmen, and the Muslims, etc.,  all of who lived their whole lives according to what they were told God wanted them to do?


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> How about the American Indians, the Hindus, the Buddhists, Norsemen, Greeks, Babylonians, Bushmen, and the Muslims, etc.,  all of who lived their whole lives according to what they were told God wanted them to do?


I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about that.  I don’t understand it but yeah I think probably so.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about that.  I don’t understand it but yeah I think probably so.


They will be sent down yonder, even though they followed faithfully and devoutly the religion they were brought up in and believed was true?


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> They will be sent down yonder, even though they followed faithfully and devoutly the religion they were brought up in and believed was true?


You want me to be honest, right?  The issue I have is Muslim goat herders who never leave the mountains of Afghanistan knowing nothing of Jesus being condemned for it.  I admit that that bothers me and I don’t understand it.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> The God’s chosen people thing to start with.




They just get a pass?


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about that.  I don’t understand it but yeah I think probably so.



You mean they're gonna burn or they get a pass for trying?


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> You want me to be honest, right?  The issue I have is Muslim goat herders who never leave the mountains of Afghanistan knowing nothing of Jesus being condemned for it.  I admit that that bothers me and I don’t understand it.



That's honest, right there.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> You want me to be honest, right?  The issue I have is Muslim goat herders who never leave the mountains of Afghanistan knowing nothing of Jesus being condemned for it.  I admit that that bothers me and I don’t understand it.


Same here. Those folks just practice the religion they grew up in, and try to do right. Then I think, what if the Hindus or the Aztecs or Phonecian Dagon-worshippers were right, and we all go down there for being Christians? That wouldn't be real fair. Maybe there are many paths to enlightenment.

After hearing the scriptures from the "Gospel according to Matthew", Chief Yonaguska replied, "It is a strange thing that the white people are not any better after having this so long."


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Same here. Those folks just practice the religion they grew up in, and try to do right. Then I think, what if the Hindus or the Aztecs or Phonecian Dagon-worshippers were right, and we all go down there for being Christians? That wouldn't be real fair.


The joke will be on me if that happens.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> The joke will be on me if that happens.


I don't want the joke to be on anybody. What if there are many paths to God?


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I don't want the joke to be on anybody. What if there are many paths to God?


Well, that will be something.  But I don’t believe that. And I’m not rooting for people to go to hades.  This is not in group/out group stuff to me.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 31, 2022)

I personally hope that if there is a God of any sort that I am judged by my actions even when nobody was looking rather than because I was unable to figure out the right God.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I personally hope that if there is a God of any sort that I am judged by my actions even when nobody was looking rather than because I was unable to figure out the right God.


You’re in trouble if you’re hoping to get by on your actions.  Just like I am.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Same here. Those folks just practice the religion they grew up in, and try to do right. Then I think, what if the Hindus or the Aztecs or Phonecian Dagon-worshippers were right, and we all go down there for being Christians? That wouldn't be real fair. Maybe there are many paths to enlightenment.
> 
> After hearing the scriptures from the "Gospel according to Matthew", Chief Yonaguska replied, "It is a strange thing that the white people are not any better after having this so long."


I missed the bottom part of this.  Yeah and I guess he was right but it ain’t like his people were any better.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> You’re in trouble if you’re hoping to get by on your actions.  Just like I am.


Nah.
I dont think some disagreement and words which don't hurt will put either of us over the edge. Neither one of us lost any sleep over it. We shouldn't be held responsible for being human.
I don't harm people. I don't swindle people. I don't cheat people. I don't use people. Raised 3 Sons who are now men. Never ever did a thing to harm my family.  Absolutely been faithful to and with the same woman since I was 15. Ran 2 respectful business. And (i know hard to believe based off of our interactions) I am well known and well liked in my area. I doubt you are not much different. Neither one of us have no problem telling someone how we think it is. Right or Wrong if that makes me burn for an eternity I will be talking smack every day. Our luck, we will be roomies in Hades. Talk about punishment for each!


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Nah.
> I dont think some disagreement and words which don't hurt will put either of us over the edge. Neither one of us lost any sleep over it. We shouldn't be held responsible for being human.
> I don't harm people. I don't swindle people. I don't cheat people. I don't use people. Raised 3 Sons who are now men. Never ever did a thing to harm my family.  Absolutely been faithful to and with the same woman since I was 15. Ran 2 respectful business. And (i know hard to believe based off of our interactions) I am well known and well liked in my area. I doubt you are not much different. Neither one of us have no problem telling someone how we think it is. Right or Wrong if that makes me burn for an eternity I will be talking smack every day. Our luck, will be roomies in Hades. Talk about punishment for each!


Well I wasn’t talking about our disagreement specifically.  I just meant any of us thinking we are going to get by on our goodness are wrong.  I’ll just speak for myself and say that I’m  not all that good.  I’ve got a temper, I’m not always good about cutting people slack and will hold them to a standard that I don’t meet my own self.  I say mean things to people. I’m not as patient as I should be.  And I’ll admit to having taken pleasure in seeing something bad happen to somebody more than once because I was mad at them or just thought they had it coming.  That’s just for starters.

Now I’m not going to be up tonight raking myself over the coals about it.   But I know the snakes in my own heart and have no illusions about being very good.  I’m capable of good things too but I try to never get to thinking I’m a good person.  I’m a black hearted sinner who does some good things.  If this sounds like self hatred it isn’t.  Not at all.  But I also do t just let myself off the hook and tell myself what a good guy I am either.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I don't want the joke to be on anybody. What if there are many paths to God?



Surprised nobody has yet pointed to what the scriptures say on the matter.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> You’re in trouble if you’re hoping to get by on your actions.  Just like I am.


Then, about 99.9% of humans who have ever lived on Earth are doomed to eternal fiery torment. Is that the work of a loving God?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Well I wasn’t talking about our disagreement specifically.  I just meant any of us thinking we are going to get by on our goodness are wrong.  I’ll just speak for myself and say that I’m  not all that good.  I’ve got a temper, I’m not always good about cutting people slack and will hold them to a standard that I don’t meet my own self.  I say mean things to people. I’m not as patient as I should be.  And I’ll admit to having taken pleasure in seeing something bad happen to somebody more than once because I was mad at them or just thought they had it coming.  That’s just for starters.
> 
> Now I’m not going to be up tonight raking myself over the coals about it.   But I know the snakes in my own heart and have no illusions about being very good.  I’m capable of good things too but I try to never get to thinking I’m a good person.  I’m a black hearted sinner who does some good things.  If this sounds like self hatred it isn’t.  Not at all.  But I also do t just let myself off the hook and tell myself what a good guy I am either.


10-4 I see what you were getting at now.


----------



## hopper (Mar 31, 2022)

Dang I keep popping in to see of anyone has figured this stuff out yet. Oh well guess I will look next week sometime ? 
 If I see a big locust wearing a crown fly through here I'm gonna believe real quick although it would most likely be to late.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Then, about 99.9% of humans who have ever lived on Earth are doomed to eternal fiery torment. Is that the work of a loving God?


Man you know what I believe so you know what my answer is going to be.  That’s why we have Jesus.  We can’t get in on our goodness because we can never be good enough. These are my beliefs and I’m not asking anyone to share them.  Take it for whatever it’s worth.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Surprised nobody has yet pointed to what the scriptures say on the matter.


You can do it.  Let her rip.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 31, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Then, about 99.9% of humans who have ever lived on Earth are doomed to eternal fiery torment. Is that the work of a loving God?


And to clarify my stance.....I am meaning if both Christians and Non Believers have it wrong and there is another option. Hopefully that entity has different rules.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 31, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Now wait a minute, we get slammed for doing exactly the same thing......



Have you seen me say “God says…” or “ God will…” or “God does…” but be unable to back it up except - somewhere in the Bible.  I was just calling him our and he was unable to honestly reply.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> You can do it.  Let her rip.



We all know what it says. Interesting to see believers giving their own answers rather than just quoting what they consider to be the authority on the matter, especially when their answers stand in contradiction to it.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> We all know what it says. Interesting to see believers giving their own answers rather than just quoting what they consider to be the authority on the matter.


Well I’m glad you found it interesting.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Man you know what I believe so you know what my answer is going to be.  That’s why we have Jesus.  We can’t get in on our goodness because we can never be good enough. These are my beliefs and I’m not asking anyone to share them.  Take it for whatever it’s worth.


What if you lived on the other side of the world and never heard of Jesus? I don't agree with the fallen mankind, Hel! as default setting scenario. I don't think humans are all inherently evil. I think people are mostly the same until some missionary comes along and tells them that they're born evil, which they never knew before. And probably think is a load of crap.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> What if you lived on the other side of the world and never heard of Jesus? I don't agree with the fallen mankind Hel! as default setting scenario.


We’ve covered this ground before, haven’t we?  With my Afghan goat herder scenario?  And you know it’s fine by me if you don’t believe that.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Nah.
> I dont think some disagreement and words which don't hurt will put either of us over the edge. Neither one of us lost any sleep over it. We shouldn't be held responsible for being human.
> I don't harm people. I don't swindle people. I don't cheat people. I don't use people. Raised 3 Sons who are now men. Never ever did a thing to harm my family.  Absolutely been faithful to and with the same woman since I was 15. Ran 2 respectful business. And (i know hard to believe based off of our interactions) I am well known and well liked in my area. I doubt you are not much different. Neither one of us have no problem telling someone how we think it is. Right or Wrong if that makes me burn for an eternity I will be talking smack every day. Our luck, we will be roomies in Hades. Talk about punishment for each!



Doesn’t matter how good a person you are according to the Bible.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Seems like you looked up what I suggested, despite not acknowledging it.  That indicates to me that you intend to be a somewhat honest, good faith conversational partner.
> 
> This will devolve into a discussion of scriptural interpretation.  I don't mind that if you don't.  I haven't been in here in a while and you and I haven't ever crossed paths so we might have a good conversation and learn something from each other. Shall we?
> 
> ...



I get what you’re saying, and I actually appreciate it.  In this case, you’re barking up the wrong tree.  As for your biblical examples, they’re great. The pharaoh one is a little irrelevant when it comes to accepting Christ, timeline wise I’d say, but I follow you’re point.  I am a believer but don’t subscribe to measuring my special place as being one of the elect.  I do fully agree with the Bible in that there will be unsaved. I don’t believe there are any individuals who will be treated unjustly by God in the end.  To me, that covers you, me and the distant villager sleeping in Africa right now. I can’t fully say how God will deliver justice, because I’m unable and unqualified, as are all men.  

If I WERE in charge, everyone would get at least one shot postmortem that would require no faith to believe. For those “last call” believers, I’d reserve the janitor, sanitation, road department type jobs in heaven.  You’d also all inherit a replica body and vocal chords of Billy Graham, just to put your nose in it for a couple million years.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Doesn’t matter how good a person you are according to the Bible.


Already said that.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Seems like you looked up what I suggested, despite not acknowledging it.  That indicates to me that you intend to be a somewhat honest, good faith conversational partner.
> 
> This will devolve into a discussion of scriptural interpretation.  I don't mind that if you don't.  I haven't been in here in a while and you and I haven't ever crossed paths so we might have a good conversation and learn something from each other. Shall we?
> 
> ...



Oh, tell me again what you suggested I look up. I may have, but I don’t feel like scrolling back up to figure it out.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> We’ve covered this ground before, haven’t we?  With my Afghan goat herder scenario?  And you know it’s fine by me if you don’t believe that.


I'm fine with you believing what you believe. I just don't believe it, to the extent that humans are born evil and need redemption to achieve salvation. A loving God wouldn't make that the default setting. I don't need Angry, Sadistic, Burn People by Default  God in my life.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I'm fine with you believing what you believe. I just don't believe it, to the extent that humans are born evil and need redemption to achieve salvation. A loving God wouldn't make that the default setting. I don't need Angry, Sadistic, Burn People by Default  God in my life.


Steve you know I know that’s what you think and that you don’t believe that.  Why are we even going over this?  I didn’t ask you to believe it with me.  Never have.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about that.  I don’t understand it but yeah I think probably so.



by "probably so" do you mean that Buddhists, Greeks & Bushmen will or will not be thrown into the hot place?


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> by "probably so" do you mean that Buddhists, Greeks & Bushmen will or will not be thrown into the hot place?


That they will.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Doesn’t matter how good a person you are according to the Bible.


I know that.
I was referring to a scenario where after death there isnt the God of the Bible nor is there No God.  There is something out there that neither side or any religion used by man has not thought of yet or found.
I am hoping if it judges me it is by merit and not because I never heard of it or  that I didn't happen to pick it out of 10,000 choices.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I know that.
> I was referring to a scenario where after death there isnt the God of the Bible nor is there No God.  There is something out there that neither side or any religion used by man has not thought of yet or found.
> I am hoping if it judges me it is by merit and not because I never heard of it or  that I didn't happen to pick it out of 10,000 choices.



Since we are playing hypotheticals how about one where man was given the gift of reason to understand the universe and the ones that refused to surrender their reason in exchange for the promise of cheating death win the grand prize? Wouldn’t that be something?


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Steve you know I know that’s what you think and that you don’t believe that.  Why are we even going over this?  I didn’t ask you to believe it with me.  Never have.


Because you're in here giving your input, as is everybody else. 


Danuwoa said:


> That they will.


And that is the part that I think is very, very, very, very, wrong on so many levels. If God condemns you to eternal fiery torment for following what you have been taught your whole life as the right way to live, that is not a God I want to worship. Because he is just as morally imperfect as I am.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> You’re in trouble if you’re hoping to get by on your actions.  Just like I am.



I disagree, and here is my mind-blowing rationale: can you define "actions"? 
_Deciding/choosing _to believe in Jesus is indeed an action. "Deciding" is a verb all day long and twice on Sundays. Just sayin'


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 31, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> *CURVEBALL ALERT! *Riddle me this Batman: I'm paraphrasing here, but the bible says that every knee shall bow (on judgement day perhaps?) and admit that Jesus/God is real before the formerly non-believing get tossed into the flames.
> 
> *IF THAT IS THE CASE  *then does that include Jews too?   Yes Jews, the very religion that Jesus was born into and was referenced/acknowledged by Jesus in many cases throughout the NT. So would God do this to "his chosen people"?
> 
> ...



It’s pretty simple and straightforward to answer this in MY OPINION. At the time of Christ and his death and resurrection, I think it’s pretty easy to see that there would have been plenty of Jews serving God and living righheous lives by the old system.  I believe if they were to die and were current on their sacrifices, etc. they would have the exact same reception as the apostles at their deaths. I believe that there would be a “grace period” to get current. After all, the Jews were suppose to be waiting for the Christ.  At this point, 2000 some years later, I think it’s pretty obvious Judaism is sorta dead in the water.  Where’s the temple?  Where’s the sacrifice?  I’m not saying that there weren’t Jews that took longer to have an opportunity to hear the good news of Christ, but not this long. If they deny him, they will be treated the same way as you upon your approaching, unavoidable death (unless you reconsider).


----------



## bullethead (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Since we are playing hypotheticals how about one where man was given the gift of reason to understand the universe and the ones that refused to surrender their reason in exchange for the promise of cheating death win the grand prize? Wouldn’t that be something?


Throw in a Shot of Crown Peach on Saturdays and I'm in!


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 31, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> It’s pretty simple and straightforward to answer this in MY OPINION. At the time of Christ and his death and resurrection, I think it’s pretty easy to see that there would have been plenty of Jews serving God and living righheous lives by the old system.  I believe if they were to die and were current on their sacrifices, etc. they would have the exact same reception as the apostles at their deaths. I believe that there would be a “grace period” to get current. After all, the Jews were suppose to be waiting for the Christ.  At this point, 2000 some years later, I think it’s pretty obvious Judaism is sorta dead in the water.  Where’s the temple?  Where’s the sacrifice?  I’m not saying that there weren’t Jews that took longer to have an opportunity to hear the good news of Christ, but not this long. If they deny him, they will be treated the same way as you upon your approaching, unavoidable death (unless you reconsider).


What about the folks who grew up being told that Vishnu was the way?


----------



## oldfella1962 (Mar 31, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Then, about 99.9% of humans who have ever lived on Earth are doomed to eternal fiery torment. Is that the work of a loving God?



Yes, that does make him seem a little unhinged, but we should have seen his violent capability coming: right there in Genesis he floods the world killing 99.9% of every living thing on the planet!   No half-stepping for him I guess. 

Weird because this is the very same God who tells his people to "turn the other cheek when you are attacked."


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Because you're in here giving your input, as is everybody else.
> 
> And that is the part that I think is very, very, very, very, wrong on so many levels. If God condemns you to eternal fiery torment for following what you have been taught your whole life as the right way to live, that is not a God I want to worship. Because he is just as morally imperfect as I am.


10 4.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I disagree, and here is my mind-blowing rationale: can you define "actions"?
> _Deciding/choosing _to believe in Jesus is indeed an action. "Deciding" is a verb all day long and twice on Sundays. Just sayin'


I was talking about earning your way in.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 31, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> What about the folks who grew up being told that Vishnu was the way?



That’s covered in my statement. I believe every human will be fairly judged by God.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Well I wasn’t talking about our disagreement specifically.  I just meant any of us thinking we are going to get by on our goodness are wrong.  I’ll just speak for myself and say that I’m  not all that good.  I’ve got a temper, I’m not always good about cutting people slack and will hold them to a standard that I don’t meet my own self.  I say mean things to people. I’m not as patient as I should be.  And I’ll admit to having taken pleasure in seeing something bad happen to somebody more than once because I was mad at them or just thought they had it coming.  That’s just for starters.
> 
> Now I’m not going to be up tonight raking myself over the coals about it.   But I know the snakes in my own heart and have no illusions about being very good.  I’m capable of good things too but I try to never get to thinking I’m a good person.  I’m a black hearted sinner who does some good things.  If this sounds like self hatred it isn’t.  Not at all.  But I also do t just let myself off the hook and tell myself what a good guy I am either.



Well you don't seem the type to send 99.9 percent of humanity to eternal torture, so you have higher moral standards than a certain deity, for what it's worth.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> What about the folks who grew up being told that Vishnu was the way?



Definitely going to the hot place. Hindu gods are actually demons.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Since we are playing hypotheticals how about one where man was given the gift of reason to understand the universe and the ones that refused to surrender their reason in exchange for the promise of cheating death win the grand prize? Wouldn’t that be something?



That would be a great Twilight Zone episode!


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Well you don't seem the type to send 99.9 percent of humanity to eternal torture, so you have higher moral standards than a certain deity, for what it's worth.


I can appreciate some irreverent humor but I dont much care to pursue this.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I was talking about earning your way in.


Earning your way in might be living as right as you think you can, according to what you've been taught and told all your life.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Definitely going to the hot place. Hindu gods are actually demons.



HA! I never did trust them, with their purple skin and octopus limbs and whatnot.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I can appreciate some irreverent humor but I dont much care to pursue this.



I don't blame you. I wouldn't want that hothead coming after me either.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 31, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I don't blame you. I wouldn't want that hothead coming after me either.



You don’t fear Him, though, right?


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I don't blame you. I wouldn't want that hothead coming after me either.


Everybody sure is feeling froggy after supper.  I think I’ll call it a night and see what’s going on in the morning.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 31, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> You don’t fear Him, though, right?


I was going to post that earlier.  If I didn’t even believe he was real I wouldn’t care about him being angry.


----------



## jrickman (Mar 31, 2022)

The way I look at this topic is pretty simple. God doesn't have to be fair. God doesn't have to do anything we expect. We were created by Him for His purpose, not the other way around. God can do whatever He dang well pleases, and our purpose is to faithfully acknowledge that He is the creator and owner of everything we have ever seen, known, or imagined. You don't have to like everything God does, and the present topic here is on that list for me personally, but we all are required to acknowledge His power and authority, and sooner or later, we all WILL.

Edit to add: As a teen, I asked my grandfather (who was a Baptist pastor) about this very topic. I forget how I worded it, but it was something like "Papa, what do you think happens to people who never even know there is a God?" His answer was, predictably, "They are condemned for their sins because God cannot allow sin in his presence." When I expressed that I felt that to be awful to think about, and how it created a sense of urgency to spread the Gospel to these innocent people, he said something that stuck with me. "Innocent? Jonathan how do YOU know they are innocent? Only God can see and judge what is in a man's heart."


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 31, 2022)

jrickman said:


> The way I look at this topic is pretty simple. God doesn't have to be fair. God doesn't have to do anything we expect. We were created by Him for His purpose, not the other way around. God can do whatever He dang well pleases, and our purpose is to faithfully acknowledge that He is the creator and owner of everything we have ever seen, known, or imagined. You don't have to like everything God does, and the present topic here is on that list for me personally, but we all are required to acknowledge His power and authority, and sooner or later, we all WILL.
> 
> Edit to add: As a teen, I asked my grandfather (who was a Baptist pastor) about this very topic. I forget how I worded it, but it was something like "Papa, what do you think happens to people who never even know there is a God?" His answer was, predictably, "They are condemned for their sins because God cannot allow sin in his presence." When I expressed that I felt that to be awful to think about, and how it created a sense of urgency to spread the Gospel to these innocent people, he said something that stuck with me. "Innocent? Jonathan how do YOU know they are innocent? Only God can see and judge what is in a man's heart."


That is not a God I want to worship. He is morally corrupt and defective.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 31, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> That is not a God I want to worship. He is morally corrupt and defective.



His point still stands though. Say that’s how it is, for the sake of conversation. Will you be content with your decision to defy God when it’s your time of judgement?  Even if He’s not as you think He should be or want Him to be?  Worse yet, what if you’ve got it all wrong and He’s a fair God after all, but one that expected you to accept Christ as you were fortunate enough to know about Him and invited to accept His grace?  What then?  I’d truly hate that scenario for you, and I’m not just saying that.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 31, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Everybody sure is feeling froggy after supper.  I think I’ll call it a night and see what’s going on in the morning.



What they think they are:



What they are in reality:


----------



## bullethead (Mar 31, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> His point still stands though. Say that’s how it is, for the sake of conversation. Will you be content with your decision to defy God when it’s your time of judgement?  Even if He’s not as you think He should be or want Him to be?  Worse yet, what if you’ve got it all wrong and He’s a fair God after all, but one that expected you to accept Christ as you were fortunate enough to know about Him and invited to accept His grace?  What then?  I’d truly hate that scenario for you, and I’m not just saying that.


Wouldn't a being worthy of being called God know what's in a person's heart and know whether or not a person is genuine when before him?
Would he be vain enough to accept a lie or would he appreciate and reward the honesty?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 31, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> What they think they are:
> 
> View attachment 1143793
> 
> ...


Now do you


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 31, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Wouldn't a being worthy of being called God know what's in a person's heart and know whether or not a person is genuine when before him?
> Would he be vain enough to accept a lie or would he appreciate and reward the honesty?



So abstract.  Genuine being valuable somehow???  How about humility?  Would you be pleased with your bad dog if he genuinely bites your sack off, or would you prefer he suppress the wolf in him and fakes a tail wag. I know which one I’d reward, and which one I’d put him down for.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 31, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Now do you



Am I supposed to finish that with some punctuation?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 31, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> So abstract.  Genuine being valuable somehow???  How about humility?  Would you be pleased with your bad dog if he genuinely bites your sack off, or would you prefer he suppress the wolf in him and fakes a tail wag. I know which one I’d reward, and which one I’d put him down for.


You aren't understanding what I mean.

If a person who has decided that accepting Jesus just wasnt going to happen. The same person has felt God wasn't worth worshipping. 
Fast forward to the day that person has to face that God.

Does the person lie and say yeah, I accept you.
Or tell the truth and say this is why I can't accept you.

Would that God accept the lie or appreciate the truth?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 31, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Am I supposed to finish that with some punctuation?


You are supposed to post pics of how you think you look.
Perceived vs Reality


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 31, 2022)

bullethead said:


> You are supposed to post pics of how you think you look.
> Perceived vs Reality



Ok. 



bullethead said:


> You aren't understanding what I mean.
> 
> If a person who has decided that accepting Jesus just wasnt going to happen. The same person has felt God wasn't worth worshipping.
> Fast forward to the day that person has to face that God.
> ...



I don’t think I’m misunderstanding you. At that moment if possible, I believe said person would try everything imaginable to seek forgiveness.  If you think you can stand there and tell God what he’s doing/done wrong, just be my guest. Maybe God will appreciate your genuine criticism.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Mar 31, 2022)

bullethead said:


> You aren't understanding what I mean.
> 
> If a person who has decided that accepting Jesus just wasnt going to happen. The same person has felt God wasn't worth worshipping.
> Fast forward to the day that person has to face that God.
> ...



straw man... it doesn't matter one way or the other according to the Bible. Either you accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, or you don't.  There is no mulligans that I read about


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 31, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Now do you



This picture serves as both my perception and reality in this subforum…


----------



## bullethead (Mar 31, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Ok.
> 
> 
> 
> I don’t think I’m misunderstanding you. At that moment if possible, I believe said person would try everything imaginable to seek forgiveness.  If you think you can stand there and tell God what he’s doing/done wrong, just be my guest. Maybe God will appreciate your genuine criticism.


A God would know what is in the person's heart regardless of what ever the person is doing or saying to seek forgiveness.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 31, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> straw man... it doesn't matter one way or the other according to the Bible. Either you accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, or you don't.  There is no mulligans that I read about


Not a straw man.
Use NCHILLBILLY (sorry bud, just a good example from your recent posts)
He unfortunately passes away tomorrow and is before God.
Will he say that he accepts Jesus and if he does is it really genuine or is he trying to get into heaven?

If he says he does and doesn't mean it God would know.
If he says he does not at least he is honest.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 31, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> This picture serves as both my perception and reality in this subforum…
> 
> View attachment 1143796


You are avoiding the point.

You posted what you think Non Believers think they look like and then a pic of what you think they really look like.

I asked you to post a pic of what you think you look like. What is your perception of You in this subforum?

If you are showing it with the pic above then ok.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Mar 31, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Not a straw man.
> Use NCHILLBILLY (sorry bud, just a good example from your recent posts)
> He unfortunately passes away tomorrow and is before God.
> Will he say that he accepts Jesus and if he does is it really genuine or is he trying to get into heaven?
> ...



once again, according to the Bible, it makes no difference.  If my friend refuses to accept Christ while he is among the living, he will not have a chance to after he is dead.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 31, 2022)

bullethead said:


> A God would know what is in the person's heart regardless of what ever the person is doing or saying to seek forgiveness.



I don’t disagree. The forgiveness you will/would seek won’t be fake.  You’ll mean it with sincerity.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 31, 2022)

bullethead said:


> You are avoiding the point.
> 
> You posted what you think Non Believers think they look like and then a pic of what you think they really look like.
> 
> ...



Not “nonbelievers”. Just the few loudmouths in here. And yes, that’s me. It’s Groundhog Day in here. Same thing over and over and over and over.  Have you seen the film?  It’s one of my favorites.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 31, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> once again, according to the Bible, it makes no difference.  If my friend refuses to accept Christ while he is among the living, he will not have a chance to after he is dead.


Exactly,  so why is buckpasser telling NCHILLBILLY to even try to convince God that he has changed his ways upon death?


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 31, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Exactly,  so why is buckpasser telling NCHILLBILLY to even try to convince God that he has changed his ways upon death?



I’m trying the get you all to change your ways prior to death.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 31, 2022)

That’s why I said will/would. You would if you could at that point.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 31, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Not “nonbelievers”. Just the few loudmouths in here. And yes, that’s me. It’s Groundhog Day in here. Same thing over and over and over and over.  Have you seen the film?  It’s one of my favorites.


Yes I watch it a few times a year.

I understand who you are in the pic. I am trying to figure out who in the subforum is Bill Murray.  ?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 31, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> That’s why I said will/would. You would if you could at that point.


But it's pointless to try at that point.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 31, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I’m trying the get you all to change your ways prior to death.


If the Holy Spirit wants us it will get us. Some who want to be of the elect never can, and some who think they are will never be.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Mar 31, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> So abstract.  Genuine being valuable somehow???  How about humility?  Would you be pleased with your bad dog if he genuinely bites your sack off, or would you prefer he suppress the wolf in him and fakes a tail wag. I know which one I’d reward, and which one I’d put him down for.



kind of "apples & oranges" because we humans can't harm god in any way, since he's the most powerful entity in the universe.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Mar 31, 2022)

bullethead said:


> If the Holy Spirit wants us it will get us. Some who want to be of the elect never can, and some who think they are will never be.



This statement is only true if predestination means God picks winners and losers.  I don't believe that is scriptural.  The Bible says that He wants all of us to come to repentance.  Some never will.


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 1, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Have you seen me say “God says…” or “ God will…” or “God does…” but be unable to back it up except - somewhere in the Bible.  I was just calling him our and he was unable to honestly reply.


Nope, off the top of my head. I cant think of when you have. I was talking "in general" anyway.
But yes, thats the way it should be. Make a claim, back it up.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> His point still stands though. Say that’s how it is, for the sake of conversation. Will you be content with your decision to defy God when it’s your time of judgement?  Even if He’s not as you think He should be or want Him to be?  Worse yet, what if you’ve got it all wrong and He’s a fair God after all, but one that expected you to accept Christ as you were fortunate enough to know about Him and invited to accept His grace?  What then?  I’d truly hate that scenario for you, and I’m not just saying that.



I can understand fearing such a monster. Maybe even obedience under duress. But offering up love and admiration? Hard pass.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> once again, according to the Bible, it makes no difference.  If my friend refuses to accept Christ while he is among the living, he will not have a chance to after he is dead.



And deserves to be cast in a lake of fire and be tortured for eternity?


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 1, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> So abstract.  Genuine being valuable somehow???  How about humility?  Would you be pleased with your bad dog if he genuinely bites your sack off, or would you prefer he suppress the wolf in him and fakes a tail wag. I know which one I’d reward, and which one I’d put him down for.


Bites your sack off??? What in God's name (to borrow a phrase) made you think of that? 
An eye for an eye, a sack for a sack might certainly apply here.


----------



## buckpasser (Apr 1, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Bites your sack off??? What in God's name (to borrow a phrase) made you think of that?
> An eye for an eye, a sack for a sack might certainly apply here.



I was going for a powerful image!  Haha


----------



## buckpasser (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> I can understand fearing such a monster. Maybe even obedience under duress. But offering up love and admiration? Hard pass.



As they say, “Don’t get it twisted”.  God of the Bible is who He says He is.  The scenario I laid out was for NCH, not a description for you to classify.


----------



## Israel (Apr 1, 2022)

God already (has always) knows the disposition of all things, He is not waiting to find out anything.

There is no "will they? won't they?" as each is already created to His end for His pleasure.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Apr 1, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I don’t disagree. The forgiveness you will/would seek won’t be fake.  You’ll mean it with sincerity.


I would probably be very sincere if I was being dangled over a big blazing fire at the time.


----------



## 660griz (Apr 1, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> What about the folks who grew up being told that Vishnu was the way?


Exactly. Why can't a God that can do anything, spread the word about himself so he/she will not have to send ignorant folks that he loves, to the lake of fire for eternal torment? 

Bible states that every Christian alive was on the same boat. Those offspring should have spread out across the world carrying the word of God. There would be no such thing as pockets of ignorance. How did Christianity spread? In the early days, mostly by force. Then missionaries, etc. 

So why doesn't a pygmy in S. America know about Jesus? The same reason folks in Georgia don't know about Bumba.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> I can understand fearing such a monster. Maybe even obedience under duress. But offering up love and admiration? Hard pass.





atlashunter said:


> I can understand fearing.


? The remainder of your post conflicts this


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 1, 2022)

660griz said:


> Exactly. Why can't a God that can do anything, spread the word about himself so he/she will not have to send ignorant folks that he loves, to the lake of fire for eternal torment?
> 
> Bible states that every Christian alive was on the same boat. Those offspring should have spread out across the world carrying the word of God. There would be no such thing as pockets of ignorance. How did Christianity spread? In the early days, mostly by force. Then missionaries, etc.
> 
> So why doesn't a pygmy in S. America know about Jesus? The same reason folks in Georgia don't know about Bumba.


This Bumba?


> Bumba: The Vomiting God. Bumba is the* african god of creation*. He is the creator of everything in the world, and the way he created it is quite odd. Bumba is known as the vomiting god, this is because for many years he had felt extremely sick. One day he felt so sick that he vomited out the sun, which gave light to the universe.


Or this one? -


> Bumba is a Flemish television program for toddlers about a clown who is capable of doing all sorts of antics in the circus with his friends..


----------



## 660griz (Apr 1, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> This Bumba?
> 
> Or this one? -


Yes.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Apr 1, 2022)

660griz said:


> So why doesn't a pygmy in S. America know about Jesus? The same reason folks in Georgia don't know about Bumba.


Yep. I hear that everybody will have the opportunity to hear the true word of God because of missionaries and such. But I don't buy that. You are mostly going to stick with the culture you grew up in. I would guess that a lifelong Sikh in India would react the same to a Christian missionary trying to convert him as a lifelong Georgia Baptist would to a foreign feller wearing a robe, sword, turban and long beard trying to explain to him that his religion is wrong, and he needs to worship Waheguru so that his soul isn't condemned to never achieve a spiritual union with the Akai.


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 1, 2022)

660griz said:


> Yes.


Well its nice that once Bumba created everything he spends time with the kids at the circus as opposed to drowning them.
( I can feel the daggers now for that one )


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 1, 2022)

660griz said:


> Exactly. Why can't a God that can do anything, spread the word about himself so he/she will not have to send ignorant folks that he loves, to the lake of fire for eternal torment?
> 
> Bible states that every Christian alive was on the same boat. Those offspring should have spread out across the world carrying the word of God. There would be no such thing as pockets of ignorance. How did Christianity spread? In the early days, mostly by force. Then missionaries, etc.
> 
> So why doesn't a pygmy in S. America know about Jesus? The same reason folks in Georgia don't know about Bumba.


Good questions but just as with our own families today - the older we get the less we get together. I’ve got cousins that I haven’t seen in years, they have grandkids I’ve never seen.

But your first question about God being able to do anything; few things to consider biblically, His Word will be spread, you’re judged by the Word of God so if you’ve never had an opportunity……., those that failed to retain the knowledge of God or turn away after coming to the knowledge of God are called out as condemned, not those that never heard.

Folks shouldn’t be so quick to do God’s judgment work.


----------



## 660griz (Apr 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Good questions but just as with our own families today - the older we get the less we get together. I’ve got cousins that I haven’t seen in years, they have grandkids I’ve never seen.


 Religion goes with them. Seeing them is not required. For instance. My kids have heard of my grandma cause I told them about her. I never met my grandma but, was told by my older siblings and father. Now, if knowing grandma was important to keep us from burning in hades, her memory would get passed on from my kids to their kids and their spouses and....



> ...those that failed to retain the knowledge of God or turn away after coming to the knowledge of God are called out as condemned, not those that never heard.


Interesting how folks can read the same book and come to different conclusions. This is not a dig, just an observation. I hope you agree.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Good questions but just as with our own families today - the older we get the less we get together. I’ve got cousins that I haven’t seen in years, they have grandkids I’ve never seen.
> 
> But your first question about God being able to do anything; few things to consider biblically, His Word will be spread, you’re judged by the Word of God so if you’ve never had an opportunity……., those that failed to retain the knowledge of God or turn away after coming to the knowledge of God are called out as condemned, not those that never heard.
> 
> Folks shouldn’t be so quick to do God’s judgment work.



Can you point me to a scripture that gives a pass to those that never heard the gospel? It must be in there because I know you would never make this up as you go.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Good questions but just as with our own families today - the older we get the less we get together. I’ve got cousins that I haven’t seen in years, they have grandkids I’ve never seen.
> 
> But your first question about God being able to do anything; few things to consider biblically, His Word will be spread, you’re judged by the Word of God so if you’ve never had an opportunity……., those that failed to retain the knowledge of God or turn away after coming to the knowledge of God are called out as condemned, not those that never heard.
> 
> Folks shouldn’t be so quick to do God’s judgment work.


If you see a commercial and don't buy the product either the advertising wasn't good enough or you just don't need or want the product.
Hearing about God but saying no thank you and then getting punished for it is the equivalent of saying "no thank you" to the Girl Scout stand in front of Walmart and coming out to the most adorable one on the roof of your car finishing up your windows with a baseball bat after she she already worked over every other body panel and has flattened your tires with her Kindness and Compassion Pin.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 1, 2022)

Same thing using an Air Fryer analogy.
People rave about their Air Fryers.
You see the commercials and the shelves are full of them.
You decide that you dont want one, dont need one, or had one, didn't like it, and returned it or gave it away.

If the punishment is that you cant spend eternity using an air fryer then so be it. You've gotten along without one and have made due.

If he CEO is upset for you not buying or not liking his company's Air Fryer and decides to stuff you into one set at extra crispy for eternity then the problem is with the CEO and not the consumer.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Can you point me to a scripture that gives a pass to those that never heard the gospel? It must be in there because I know you would never make this up as you go.


You know the Bible better than Christians you claim. I don’t recall saying free pass.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> If you see a commercial and don't buy the product either the advertising wasn't good enough or you just don't need or want the product.
> Hearing about God but saying no thank you and then getting punished for it is the equivalent of saying "no thank you" to the Girl Scout stand in front of Walmart and coming out to the most adorable one on the roof of your car finishing up your windows with a baseball bat after she she already worked over every other body panel and has flattened your tires with her Kindness and Compassion Pin.


That’s why I said folks should not be so quick to do God’s judging.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

Now God is an air fryer salesman.  This is getting silly.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> That’s why I said folks should be so quick to do God’s judging.


What is the criteria to make it into Heaven?
Is it accept Jesus before you are dead or wait until you are before God and let him decide?


----------



## bullethead (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Now God is an air fryer salesman.  This is getting silly.


Nobody said that.
I am using relatable analogies.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Nobody said that.
> I am using relatable analogies.


It was a bad analogy, man.


----------



## 660griz (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> It was a bad analogy, man.


How so?


----------



## bullethead (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> It was a bad analogy, man.


You read it and interpreted it to say God is an Air Fryer salesman. It couldn't have been that bad.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

660griz said:


> How so?


Don’t worry about it.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> You read it and interpreted it to say God is an Air Fryer salesman. It couldn't have been that bad.


Ok.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> You know the Bible better than Christians you claim. I don’t recall saying free pass.





Spotlite said:


> you’re judged by the Word of God so if you’ve never had an opportunity……., those that failed to retain the knowledge of God or turn away after coming to the knowledge of God are called out as condemned, *not those that never heard*.



If they aren't condemned how is that not a pass? And where in the bible are you reading that? Or if it's not in the bible where are you getting it from?


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> It was a bad analogy, man.



Yeah it was. It would have been far worse if it was a good analogy.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

Well in the spirit of the current trend of the conversation, all of you have heard the gospel, all of you have rejected it, as far as I’m concerned that’s your right and you’re free to do it.  Really no reason to talk about the what ifs or any of the rest of it.  Who’s ready for some turkey hunting?


----------



## 660griz (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Who’s ready for some turkey hunting?


I am. Here you go.  For the rest of us that want to talk about it. Carry on.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> If they aren't condemned how is that not a pass? And where in the bible are you reading that? Or if it's not in the bible where are you getting it from?


That’s why I said don’t be quick to do God’s judgment. I’ll get you sone scripture to support my thoughts when I get off the road.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

660griz said:


> I am. Here you go.  For the rest of us that want to talk about it. Carry on.


I don’t see how you have anything to talk about.  That’s what’s so weird.  You can’t stop talking about something you have your mind made up about.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> That’s why I said don’t be quick to do God’s judgment. I’ll get you sone scripture to support my thoughts when I get off the road.



That's exactly what you're doing when you say they aren't condemned.


----------



## 660griz (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I don’t see how you have anything to talk about.  That’s what’s so weird.  You can’t stop talking about something you have your mind made up about.


What is even stranger, you have nothing to contribute, don't like the conversation but, are still here.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

660griz said:


> What is even stranger, you have nothing to contribute, don't like the conversation but, are still here.


I’ve contributed as much as you have.   Now what?


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

660griz said:


> What is even stranger, you have nothing to contribute, don't like the conversation but, are still here.


----------



## 660griz (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I’ve contributed as much as you have.   Now what?


Naw I try to stick to facts and not sell Troll House Cookies.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

If only those who hear the gospel and reject it are condemned aren't you increasing the number of condemned by spreading the gospel?


----------



## bullethead (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> If only those who hear the gospel and reject it are condemned aren't you increasing the number of condemned by spreading the gospel?


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> And deserves to be cast in a lake of fire and be tortured for eternity?



Not my call, nor is it your call.

All I can tell you is what the Bible teaches.  You have to make those decisions on your own.  No one can force you into believing or not believing. It is a very personal thing


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

660griz said:


> Naw I try to stick to facts and not sell Troll House Cookies.


Ok.  What you stick to is this forum.  I did a quick perusal of your post history and you post almost exclusively in this forum.  A board dedicated to the outdoors with al sorts of other subjects to discuss pretty much all you want to do is talk about a God you claim not think is real.  That’s beyond strange.  That borders on something a lot weirder than strange.  That’s an obsession.  Being obsessed with something you don’t believe in seems kind of unhealthy.  Is that why you’re so quick to take offense to everything?  You must be pretty insecure in your unbelief.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Not my call, nor is it your call.
> 
> All I can tell you is what the Bible teaches.  You have to make those decisions on your own.  No one can force you into believing or not believing. It is a very personal thing


They’ve all made their decision.   But they want to argue about it.


----------



## 660griz (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Ok.  What you stick to is this forum.  I did a quick perusal of your post history and you post almost exclusively in this forum.  A board dedicated to the outdoors with al sorts of other subjects to discuss pretty much all you want to do is talk about a God you claim not think is real.  That’s beyond strange.  That borders on something a lot weirder than strange.  That’s an obsession.  Being obsessed with something you don’t believe in seems kind of unhealthy.  Is that why you’re so quick to take offense to everything?  Yu must be pretty insecure in your unbelief.


Excellent post. Just kidding. Not buying any more cookies. Hey, did you see that Turkey forum? Pretty cool stuff.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Not my call, nor is it your call.
> 
> All I can tell you is what the Bible teaches.  You have to make those decisions on your own.  No one can force you into believing or not believing. It is a very personal thing



If you can't bring yourself to form an opinion on the morality of that call how can you form an opinion on the morality of the one making it?


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


>


You thought that was clever?


----------



## Israel (Apr 1, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I would probably be very sincere if I was being dangled over a big blazing fire at the time.


Thankfully, His mercy is not dependent upon our sincerity.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

660griz said:


> Excellent post. Just kidding. Not buying any more cookies. Hey, did you see that Turkey forum? Pretty cool stuff.


Yeah I don’t blame you.  I wouldn’t want to talk about that either if I were you.


----------



## 660griz (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> You thought that was clever?


That means roll on floor laughing. Not clever. That means he found it funny. I am here to help.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Ok.  What you stick to is this forum.  I did a quick perusal of your post history and you post almost exclusively in this forum.  A board dedicated to the outdoors with al sorts of other subjects to discuss pretty much all you want to do is talk about a God you claim not think is real.  That’s beyond strange.  That borders on something a lot weirder than strange.  That’s an obsession.  Being obsessed with something you don’t believe in seems kind of unhealthy.  Is that why you’re so quick to take offense to everything?  Yu must be pretty insecure in your unbelief.


In reality, there are many places to discuss such things. GON has done a great job of creating forums and subforums which allow an individual to tailor their interests towards. This AAA is much more tame than many others. It is enjoyable for those that enjoy it.
Nobody from "down here" goes to the other religious forums on GON to wind up regulars there or question why they post there more than anywhere else.
We leave em be.
It is no more one sided here than it is in the political forum where mostly the same guys post mostly the same stuff to mostly the same group of like minded guys. It's the same stuff over an over but it works for those who participate because like with a religion, thats where they want to be.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> They’ve all made their decision.   But they want to argue about it.



agreed.  And they question why the gospel hasn't been all over the world, when that is exactly what missionaries have been doing for centuries.  I think you would be hard pressed in the US, especially in the southern states to find anyone who hasn't heard of Jesus or the Bible.  Most nations have a population where the majority have heard of Jesus.

I have been to a few countries working in orphanages, hospitals and childrens homes.  I see what the Christians around the world have done to promote the gospel.  I have seen hindu believers change their lives after hearing the gospel.  Drastic, life altering changes.  

Either you believe, or you don't.  It is up to each of us individually.  I hope that each and every one comes to Christ, but I know that isn't going to happen.  It doesn't stop me from praying, talking to people, and trying to answer questions.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

Takes a true narcissist to go into a forum dedicated to a certain topic and tell everyone you don't want to talk about that topic, question why they are doing so, and try to change the topic to one already covered in a different forum.


----------



## 660griz (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Yeah I don’t blame you.  I wouldn’t want to talk about that either if I were you.


Cause it has nothing to do with Atheists/Agnostics/Apologetics. I am sure that is your objective though. Thus the wrong forum for you comment.
If you are saying that there is something wrong with posting in this forum and not in any other forum well, I don't really care. The forum exist on a outdoor forum so...
I surely don't go in the bible thumping forums and count post in others comparably. That would be stupid. I don't go in there at all. But, to come in here and tell folks to stop discussing the very thing the forum is for is well...
If you want to continue playing footsies, please PM me so these folks don't have to suffer through this garbage.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> If you can't bring yourself to form an opinion on the morality of that call how can you form an opinion on the morality of the one making it?



I didn't say I don't have an opinion, I said it is not up to me to make the call of who goes to heaven and who goes to he ll.  That is God's domain.

Just like you don't get to decide where I go or what I do.  It is up to the individual, their preferences and their relationships.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> agreed.  And they question why the gospel hasn't been all over the world, when that is exactly what missionaries have been doing for centuries.  I think you would be hard pressed in the US, especially in the southern states to find anyone who hasn't heard of Jesus or the Bible.  Most nations have a population where the majority have heard of Jesus.
> 
> I have been to a few countries working in orphanages, hospitals and childrens homes.  I see what the Christians around the world have done to promote the gospel.  I have seen hindu believers change their lives after hearing the gospel.  Drastic, life altering changes.
> 
> Either you believe, or you don't.  It is up to each of us individually.  I hope that each and every one comes to Christ, but I know that isn't going to happen.  It doesn't stop me from praying, talking to people, and trying to answer questions.


Great post, God bless you for going to those places, and I agree.  This crowd here seems pretty settled on their unbelief.  They get mad when you talk to them about it or just come up with a list of reasons why they ca t possibly be wrong.  Fair enough.  They’ve heard the gospel and want nothing to do with it.  Maybe that will change.  I pray it does.  But for now I think it is what it is.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

660griz said:


> Cause it has nothing to do with Atheists/Agnostics/Apologetics. I am sure that is your objective though. Thus the wrong forum for you comment.


Lol.  That’s specifically what it has to do with.  Nobody else does that.  People who don’t believe in aliens don’t spend all their time talking about aliens.  If they did it would be a pretty good indicator that they did believe in aliens.  Especially if they seemed as touchy about that as you are about this.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Takes a true narcissist to go into a forum dedicated to a certain topic and tell everyone you don't want to talk about that topic, question why they are doing so, and try to change the topic to one already covered in a different forum.


Well if I’m a narcissist I’m in the right place.  Can’t swing a dead cat in here without hitting several.  Getting lectured on narcissism by an atheist.???. Man that’s belly laugh stuff right there.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I didn't say I don't have an opinion, I said it is not up to me to make the call of who goes to heaven and who goes to he ll.  That is God's domain.
> 
> Just like you don't get to decide where I go or what I do.  It is up to the individual, their preferences and their relationships.



What's your opinion?


----------



## bullethead (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Great post, God bless you for going to those places, and I agree.  This crowd here seems pretty settled on their unbelief.  They get mad when you talk to them about it or just come up with a list of reasons why they ca t possibly be wrong.  Fair enough.  They’ve heard the gospel and want nothing to do with it.  Maybe that will change.  I pray it does.  But for now I think it is what it is.


Do you frequent the political forum because you are on the fence about joining the Democratic Party or are you there to point out what you think is wrong with the Dems, leftists, progressives and those forum members who support them?
Are you pretty settled in your political stance? Set on why you cant possibly be wrong?
Difference is, we agree in the political forum.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> In reality, there are many places to discuss such things. GON has done a great job of creating forums and subforums which allow an individual to tailor their interests towards. This AAA is much more tame than many others. It is enjoyable for those that enjoy it.
> Nobody from "down here" goes to the other religious forums on GON to wind up regulars there or question why they post there more than anywhere else.
> We leave em be.
> It is no more one sided here than it is in the political forum where mostly the same guys post mostly the same stuff to mostly the same group of like minded guys. It's the same stuff over an over but it works for those who participate because like with a religion, thats where they want to be.


Well I agree with some of that.  But nobody that I know of who regularly posts in the PF posts there and just about nowhere else.


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 1, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Oh, tell me again what you suggested I look up. I may have, but I don’t feel like scrolling back up to figure it out.



https://www.biblehub.com/matthew/22-14.htm

https://faithalone.org/grace-in-focus-articles/god-wishes-none-to-perish-but-for-all-to-repent/


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> That's exactly what you're doing when you say they aren't condemned.


Read John 9.
I never say anyone is condemned. Scripture says it for those that reject it, though. 

We’re talking about those that never heard or might not ever have the opportunity.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Do you frequent the political forum because you are on the fence about joining the Democratic Party or are you there to point out what you think is wrong with the Dems, leftists, progressives and those forum members who support them?
> Are you pretty settled in your political stance? Set on why you cant possibly be wrong?
> Difference is, we agree in the political forum.


I visit the PF to keep up with current events because the news is a load of steaming crap.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

Israel said:


> Thankfully, His mercy is not dependent upon our sincerity.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Read John 9.
> I never say anyone is condemned. Scripture says it for those that reject it, though.
> 
> We’re talking about those that never heard or might not ever have the opportunity.



Did you say those that haven't heard the gospel aren't condemned? Or did I misunderstand?


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> What's your opinion?


I have stated it in here several times, but just to save you from going back and reading...

If someone hasn't made the decision to make Christ their Lord and Savior before they die, there is no chance in the afterlife for repentance.  Since God alone can forgive sins, and no sin can enter Heaven, the unforgiven are condemned to spend eternity in he ll.  

Again, that is what I see the Bible teaching.  You may not agree with it, and it really doesn't matter.  Just as it doesn't matter if I agree with it.  Those decisions are in God's wheelhouse and He gets to make the call.

It amazes me that people think they should have the right to put limitation on a Creator who can just speak and create living creatures, worlds, stars, and even dimensions we can't see or function in at this time.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Apr 1, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> agreed.  And they question why the gospel hasn't been all over the world, when that is exactly what missionaries have been doing for centuries.  I think you would be hard pressed in the US, especially in the southern states to find anyone who hasn't heard of Jesus or the Bible.  Most nations have a population where the majority have heard of Jesus.
> 
> I have been to a few countries working in orphanages, hospitals and childrens homes.  I see what the Christians around the world have done to promote the gospel.  I have seen hindu believers change their lives after hearing the gospel.  Drastic, life altering changes.
> 
> Either you believe, or you don't.  It is up to each of us individually.  I hope that each and every one comes to Christ, but I know that isn't going to happen.  It doesn't stop me from praying, talking to people, and trying to answer questions.


Have you heard of Krishna from those Hare Krishna missionaries in the airport? Did you accept him even though it goes against a lifetime of what you have been taught and told by people you trust and respect? If Krishna turns out to be the real deal, should he roast you for not accepting him under almost impossible circumstances for you do be willing to do so? How about those Jehova's Witnesses knocking on your door? Did you abandon your current religion and accept theirs? Nope, no more than someone in Asia who grew up believing in Buddhist teaching would abandon that and accept Jesus because you told him about him.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Well I agree with some of that.  But nobody that I know of who regularly posts in the PF posts there and just about nowhere else.


Why post somewhere if you have no interest in it?
Like how many different forums must an individual post on to be considered legit?

I couldn't tell you a lick about Hogs. Pennsylvania doesn't have them, I've never hunted them, so no sense in me going into the Hog forum and telling guys how its done.
If I ever get interested in hunting hogs, I will go in and ask questions. I occasionally read that forum because I think it is pretty cool and envy those that hunt hogs regularly. But so far I don't post.
And there are a majority of forums that I have never ever clicked on. Just No Interest


----------



## buckpasser (Apr 1, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I would probably be very sincere if I was being dangled over a big blazing fire at the time.



I’m sure!


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Why post somewhere if you have no interest in it?
> Like how many different forums must an individual post on to be considered legit?
> 
> I couldn't tell you a lick about Hogs. Pennsylvania doesn't have them, I've never hunted them, so no sense in me going into the Hog forum and telling guys how its done.
> ...


That makes sense but you’re kind of proving my point.  If you did post in the hog forum everyday even though there are none where you live and you say you don’t care about hog hunting that would be weird.  That’s the equivalent to what 660griz and several other do here.  Post almost solely on a subject they say they don’t believe in.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Have you heard of Krishna from those Hare Krishna missionaries in the airport? Did you accept him even though it goes against a lifetime of what you have been taught and told by people you trust and respect? If Krishna turns out to be the real deal, should he roast you for not accepting him under almost impossible circumstances for you do be willing to do so? How about those Jehova's Witnesses knocking on your door? Did you abandon your current religion and accept theirs? Nope, no more than someone in Asia who grew up believing in Buddhist teaching would abandon that and accept Jesus because you told him about him.


Who is trying to make you abandon your beliefs?


----------



## buckpasser (Apr 1, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> https://www.biblehub.com/matthew/22-14.htm
> 
> https://faithalone.org/grace-in-focus-articles/god-wishes-none-to-perish-but-for-all-to-repent/



Ok. I’ll admit I did not read through the article, but I did just open it. What were the points of interest to you?  I’m not trying to be dense, just busy with life and trying to keep up with all this in my “spare time”.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Apr 1, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Have you heard of Krishna from those Hare Krishna missionaries in the airport? Did you accept him even though it goes against a lifetime of what you have been taught and told by people you trust and respect? If Krishna turns out to be the real deal, should he roast you for not accepting him under almost impossible circumstances for you do be willing to do so? How about those Jehova's Witnesses knocking on your door? Did you abandon your current religion and accept theirs? Nope, no more than someone in Asia who grew up believing in Buddhist teaching would abandon that and accept Jesus because you told him about him.



but I have seen Buddhist convert. I have seen Hindus reject a lifetime of teaching and beliefs.  I have seen Muslims abandon their communities and become Christians.  Why do you think they would do that?

I find no truth in what the Krishna, Buddhist, Hindu or Muslims teach.  The truth I find in scripture has change me. I am not the person I was before I committed my life to Christ.  I find truth in scripture.  That is why I believe. 

Perhaps the converted Hindu, Buddist and Muslims find truth in what they are told

Scripture doesn't answer every question I have, and that is fine with me.  It may be that I don't understand all I know.  Just like a high school graduate doesn't understand all that a master degreed graduate would understand.  I have arrived yet.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I visit the PF to keep up with current events because the news is a load of steaming crap.


Some of us visit the AAA to keep up with like minded people and definitely also to get an Aplogists explanation and point of view because many of us have found organized religion to be a steamer also. If what organized religion is telling us doesn't make sense we look elsewhere too.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Some of us visit the AAA to keep up with like minded people and definitely also to get an Aplogists explanation and point of view because many of us have found organized religion to be a steamer also. If what organized religion is telling us doesn't make sense we look elsewhere too.


That makes sense.  But he’s loud and proud about total non belief so he’s not here for that reason.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> but I have seen Buddhist convert. I have seen Hindus reject a lifetime of teaching and beliefs.  I have seen Muslims abandon their communities and become Christians.  Why do you think they would do that?
> 
> I find no truth in what the Krishna, Buddhist, Hindu or Muslims teach.  The truth I find in scripture has change me. I am not the person I was before I committed my life to Christ.  I find truth in scripture.  That is why I believe.
> 
> ...


I’m a long way from arriving for sure.  In some ways I’m worse off than these boys who mock Christianity because I’m a believer and my actions don’t show it at all sometimes.  Probably a lot of the time.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I visit the PF to keep up with current events because the news is a load of steaming crap.


But you don't dogg non conservatives while you are there right? Do you offer opinions? 
Point being....we all got our favorites. 

I love the firearms forum. Had some doozy conversations about bullet "hitting power" but I go there to talk about things that 99.9% of the guys all agree on but have different ways.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I have stated it in here several times, but just to save you from going back and reading...
> 
> If someone hasn't made the decision to make Christ their Lord and Savior before they die, there is no chance in the afterlife for repentance.  Since God alone can forgive sins, and no sin can enter Heaven, the unforgiven are condemned to spend eternity in he ll.
> 
> ...



I'm not asking who has the power to decide. I know what the bible says and that you believe insofar as that is concerned. The original question was this:

And deserves to be cast in a lake of fire and be tortured for eternity?

I'm not asking if it's your decision to make. I'm asking your opinion of the morality of it. A judge issues a verdict. You're asked for your opinion on the justice of that verdict. Instead of offering that you say you're not the judge and don't have the authority of the judge. But that's not what you were asked. Does a judgment that says all of humanity deserves to burn and be tormented for eternity pass muster with you? Is it what you would expect of a righteous judge?


----------



## bullethead (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> That makes sense but you’re kind of proving my point.  If you did post in the hog forum everyday even though there are none where you live and you say you don’t care about hog hunting that would be weird.  That’s the equivalent to what 660griz and several other do here.  Post almost solely on a subject they say they don’t believe in.


But it interests them.
There are many threads about science, history, archeology,  space and other things in here. The "Yes it is, Nonit aint" threads get all the glory though.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Apr 1, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I would probably be very sincere if I was being dangled over a big blazing fire at the time.



The facts are that you are sincere now in your beliefs.  It doesn't really matter that you have sincere beliefs if they are wrong beliefs.

We each have to look at the information that is provided and we each have to make decisions on how we will live our lives.  And I believe we all will give an account for the way we have spent our time here on Earth.

Some of you believe I might be wrong, that I might be following the wrong god, or I am dense for even believing in God.  If I am, what difference does it make?  I am a better person now for the believes I hold.  I try to be more forgiving to others. I am trying to be more charitable to others.  I know that some of the personal struggles I have had with scriptural teaching has made me change the way I act.  

My life is better because I choose to follow the teaching of the Bible.  Why would I not follow them?


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> But it interests them.
> There are many threads about science, history, archeology,  space and other things in here. The "Yes it is, Nonit aint" threads get all the glory though.


Maybe since Im not an atheist I’ll never understand this.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> I'm not asking who has the power to decide. I know what the bible says and that you believe insofar as that is concerned. The original question was this:
> 
> And deserves to be cast in a lake of fire and be tortured for eternity?
> 
> I'm not asking if it's your decision to make. I'm asking your opinion of the morality of it. A judge issues a verdict. You're asked for your opinion on the justice of that verdict. Instead of offering that you say you're not the judge and don't have the authority of the judge. But that's not what you were asked. Does a judgment that says all of humanity deserves to burn and be tormented for eternity pass muster with you? Is it what you would expect of a righteous judge?



I would expect a righteous judge to follow the law.  What does the law say?


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> The facts are that you are sincere now in your beliefs.  It doesn't really matter that you have sincere beliefs if they are wrong beliefs.
> 
> We each have to look at the information that is provided and we each have to make decisions on how we will live our lives.  And I believe we all will give an account for the way we have spent our time here on Earth.
> 
> ...


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> That makes sense but you’re kind of proving my point.  If you did post in the hog forum everyday even though there are none where you live and you say you don’t care about hog hunting that would be weird.  That’s the equivalent to what 660griz and several other do here.  Post almost solely on a subject they say they don’t believe in.



Atheists and apologists talking religion in a forum titled "Atheists/Agnostics/Apologetics"?


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Atheists and apologists talking religion in a forum titled "Atheists/Agnostics/Apologetics"?


You’re a day late and a dollar short as usual.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I would expect a righteous judge to follow the law.  What does the law say?



Not necessarily. A judge following an unjust law is still unjust. Besides, in this instance the judge and lawmaker are one and the same so that doesn't really help you out.

It's fine, no need to give your opinion. The fact that you've now repeatedly avoided doing so is answer enough.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 1, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I have stated it in here several times, but just to save you from going back and reading...
> 
> If someone hasn't made the decision to make Christ their Lord and Savior before they die, there is no chance in the afterlife for repentance.  Since God alone can forgive sins, and no sin can enter Heaven, the unforgiven are condemned to spend eternity in he ll.
> 
> ...


People who do not believe such a creator exists have every right to put limits on and question something they have never seen, cannot understand or have no personal relationship (real or imaginary) with.

If there is GOD. Period. One and One only and He/She/It wants me to know of it, then being God would allow me to be contacted or shown in a way or ways that are unique to me and that only I could understand.
GOD wouldn't need a Bible to be interpreted if there was nothing to interpret. GOD wouldn't need nitwit humans to muck up spreading the news. Flat out humans have a BAD track record for truth and a great track record for untruth.
If there is GOD than nothing else is needed. No prayer, no scripture,  no interpretation,  just everyone should be comfortable with every happening and accept every outcome because GOD wills it, period. GOD doesn't need help. GOD doesn't need excuses. GOD doesn't need interpretations. GOD is above the rules and law. 
Does anyone here really think that a GOD needs their worship or help?


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 1, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> The facts are that you are sincere now in your beliefs.  It doesn't really matter that you have sincere beliefs if they are wrong beliefs.
> 
> We each have to look at the information that is provided and we each have to make decisions on how we will live our lives.  And I believe we all will give an account for the way we have spent our time here on Earth.
> 
> ...



I would say that the fact that the doctrine you follow leads you to believe that some people are destined for eternal suffering and that it's righteous and OK tells me that it's flawed.  It's a bad model to form a society on.  It creates a reality in your mind and a way to understand justice that's corrupt.  People who don't subscribe to that particular notion of justice look upon and deal with their fellow humans beings in a different way, one that in my opinion is better.  Your model is bad.  You could achieve all the good things in blue another way, without all the bad stuff I mentioned.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Who is trying to make you abandon your beliefs?


That question has a point on both ends of it, not just one.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Maybe since Im not an atheist I’ll never understand this.


Maybe.
But you dont have to be an Atheist to understand it.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Apr 1, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> but I have seen Buddhist convert. I have seen Hindus reject a lifetime of teaching and beliefs.  I have seen Muslims abandon their communities and become Christians.  Why do you think they would do that?
> 
> I find no truth in what the Krishna, Buddhist, Hindu or Muslims teach.  The truth I find in scripture has change me. I am not the person I was before I committed my life to Christ.  I find truth in scripture.  That is why I believe.
> 
> ...


I have also seen Christians convert to Islam, Buddhism, or Judaism. Why would they do that? Maybe they found truth in what they were told?
But there are still an awful lot of Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, and Christians, most of whom have no interest in switching religions, because they one they follow works for them. My point is that we are for the most part products of the cultures we grew up in. There is no logical reason for most lifelong Hindus to find truth in you telling them about Jesus, any more than there is any logical reason for you to find truth in them telling you about Vishnu. Some folks leap across the cultural divide, but most folks tend to dance with the one that brung 'em. If you had been born in India, you would likely be a Hindu, and find truth in it, because it is the religion of your culture.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> That question has a point on both ends of it, not just one.


I know it.  I said several posts back that the atheists here have heard the gospel and said, “Naw I’m good.  This ain’t for me.  I’ve got better ideas.” so they’ve made their decision and should be allowed the freedom to live or die with it same as I do with my beliefs.  But a few of these guys don’t want you to do that.  They want you to argue with them about something they have their mind made up about.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 1, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I would expect a righteous judge to follow the law.  What does the law say?


One is Thou Shalt Not Kill. It is a direct commandment. It just doesn't apply to the Commander. So being righteous has nothing to with following laws.


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 1, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> He already told us that not all will hear the call, but it's also his desire that none suffer......Go figure.



This ^ comes from this:



ambush80 said:


> https://www.biblehub.com/matthew/22-14.htm
> 
> https://faithalone.org/grace-in-focus-articles/god-wishes-none-to-perish-but-for-all-to-repent/


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Who is trying to make you abandon your beliefs?



I'm making the case that some of the beliefs central to the Biblical doctrine poison human relations and subvert notions of justice and that any good lessons it contains can be arrived at by better means.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I know it.  I said several posts back that the atheists here have heard the gospel and said, “Naw I’m good.  This ain’t for me.  I’ve got better ideas.” so they’ve made their decision and should be allowed the freedom to live or die with it same as I do with my beliefs.  But a few of these guys don’t want you to do that.  They want you to argue with them about something they have their mind made up about.



You're saying this in a thread started by a christian addressing the "doubters and deniers". 

I'm still trying to figure out which atheist dragged you in here from the turkey forum and insisted you continue to grace us with your presence.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Apr 1, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> The facts are that you are sincere now in your beliefs.  It doesn't really matter that you have sincere beliefs if they are wrong beliefs.
> 
> We each have to look at the information that is provided and we each have to make decisions on how we will live our lives.  And I believe we all will give an account for the way we have spent our time here on Earth.
> 
> ...


Excellent post. 
The only place where you and I differ is that I think much of that applies to those who follow the teaching of the other religions as well. So, why is it the duty of the Christian to try to make them change something that makes them better people with better lives if their religion is working for them like yours is working for you? What if God reveals himself to different cultures in different forms that are tailored for their lives and understanding?


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Did you say those that haven't heard the gospel aren't condemned? Or did I misunderstand?


I said read John 9. I said scripture condemns those that reject. 

For those that haven’t ir will never hear the gospel I said let’s not be so quick to do God’s judging. He will be the only to know if they’re nit guilty because they’ve never seen.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> If only those who hear the gospel and reject it are condemned aren't you increasing the number of condemned by spreading the gospel?



@Spotlite


----------



## bullethead (Apr 1, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I have also seen Christians convert to Islam, Buddhism, or Judaism. Why would they do that? Maybe they found truth in what they were told?
> But there are still an awful lot of Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, and Christians, most of whom have no interest in switching religions, because they one they follow works for them. My point is that we are for the most part products of the cultures we grew up in. There is no logical reason for most lifelong Hindus to find truth in you telling them about Jesus, any more than there is any logical reason for you to find truth in them telling you about Vishnu. Some folks leap across the cultural divide, but most folks tend to dance with the one that brung 'em. If you had been born in India, you would likely be a Hindu, and find truth in it, because it is the religion of your culture.


It also seems that Christianity has spread more when access to information about it was less.
Now, with the internet The Word can get almost anywhere instantly but the growth doesn't show it especially in places with the easiest access.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Not necessarily. A judge following an unjust law is still unjust. Besides, in this instance the judge and lawmaker are one and the same so that doesn't really help you out.
> 
> It's fine, no need to give your opinion. The fact that you've now repeatedly avoided doing so is answer enough.



I have answered each question every time.

You just don't like the answers I gave you.

God's laws are just.  He makes them, and your opinion of them will not change His laws.

God is the ultimate authority, so yes, He gets to make the laws and to judge each of us by His laws.  

It seems like the real issue here is that you don't want to be held accountable for your sins, and you don't want to change what you are doing.  It seems to me you are like my rebellious teenage son that wants to do the opposite of what I tell him because he doesn't like my authority.  I tell him to be home before midnight on the weekends.  It goes against his grain.  He knows, I know, and most adults know that a teen doesn't need to be out after midnight with his friends riding the roads.  

He just doesn't like being held accountable.  He knows he will, and there will be consequences for not being home.  Should I change my rules because he doesn't like them?  Should God change His laws because you or I don't like them?


----------



## Israel (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> If only those who hear the gospel and reject it are condemned aren't you increasing the number of condemned by spreading the gospel?


No.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 1, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I have answered each question every time.
> 
> You just don't like the answers I gave you.
> 
> ...


It isn't about wanting or not wanting to be held accountable for their sins it really comes down to figuring out Who/What/Which will be doing the judging.
All the incidentals can be worked out after all the Creator and Judgement gods are eliminated down into being the correct one or ones.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Apr 1, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Some folks leap across the cultural divide, but most folks tend to dance with the one that brung 'em. If you had been born in India, you would likely be a Hindu, and find truth in it, because it is the religion of your culture.



Maybe.  But aren't you leaving God out of the equation.  The Bible says that the Holy Spirit calls those people. Could it be that there are spiritual things at work here that we may not see, and may not understand?

I understand the questioning of God. I went thru quite a bit of that in my younger life.  We each have to examine the information we have. We have to decide what is truth and what is not.  We then live our lives according to that truth. 

I have seen your post about questioning the truth of the Bible.  Those struggles are good things.  Anyone who would just blindly accept what they are told without checking it out seems to be a simpleton to me.  I encourage you to continue your studies, check out things, and see if you can't satisfy some of those questions


----------



## Israel (Apr 1, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I would probably be very sincere if I was being dangled over a big blazing fire at the time.



yes.

What then makes for sincerity?

Is it always malleable...comparative?


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Apr 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> It isn't about wanting or not wanting to be held accountable for their sins it really comes down to figuring out Who/What/Which will be doing the judging.
> All the incidentals can be worked out after all the Creator and Judgement gods are eliminated down into being the correct one or ones.



which is your decision to make.  You have to live with those decisions.  I believe that God has given us ample information to be sure He is the one and only true God.

You don't.  It is as simple as that.  

I hope you continue to question that reality. Perhaps you will find the truth you are looking for


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I have answered each question every time.
> 
> You just don't like the answers I gave you.
> 
> ...



No, you repeatedly dodged the question. You talked about who has the authority to judge and how it's not your place or my place to say otherwise when a simple, yes all of humanity deserves to be cast in a lake of fire and suffer for all eternity would have sufficed if that was your opinion on the matter. You're still talking about authority and who gets to make the decision when that was never the question.

If a good act on god's part, let's say a miraculous healing were in question you wouldn't waste any time in passing a moral judgment on the act itself and on the doer in proclaiming it good. You wouldn't be saying well who am I to judge, it's not my place, he's the one with the power and authority.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> No, you repeatedly dodged the question. You talked about who has the authority to judge and how it's not your place or my place to say otherwise when a simple, yes all of humanity deserves to be cast in a lake of fire and suffer for all eternity would have sufficed if that was your opinion on the matter. You're still talking about authority and who gets to make the decision when that was never the question.
> 
> If a good act on god's part, let's say a miraculous healing were in question you wouldn't waste any time in passing a moral judgment on the act itself and on the doer in proclaiming it good. You wouldn't be saying well who am I to judge, it's not my place, he's the one with the power and authority.



OK... I have tried.  Sorry I don't meet your expectations of an answer.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

I've held my son accountable when he's messed up. Never stuck him in the basement and set him on fire though under the guise of holding him accountable. YMMV


----------



## Artfuldodger (Apr 1, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Maybe.  But aren't you leaving God out of the equation.  The Bible says that the Holy Spirit calls those people. Could it be that there are spiritual things at work here that we may not see, and may not understand?
> 
> I understand the questioning of God. I went thru quite a bit of that in my younger life.  We each have to examine the information we have. We have to decide what is truth and what is not.  We then live our lives according to that truth.
> 
> I have seen your post about questioning the truth of the Bible.  Those struggles are good things.  Anyone who would just blindly accept what they are told without checking it out seems to be a simpleton to me.  I encourage you to continue your studies, check out things, and see if you can't satisfy some of those questions


I like that response, what I don't understand is why does it seem like God only elects from those of the families of the Elect? If one doesn't believe, no amount of learning or trying will do him any good. If he isn't called by the Spirit to see. It appears that even though God calls by grace and not of works, He tends to call generations from the parents of Believers. He also has a tendency to call from Christian nations more than from a Hindu nation. I'm not saying that He can't and I know that he has and will.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

Israel said:


> No.



My math says otherwise. If spot is right, spreading the gospel is opening the door to condemnation. I'm not saying his premise is right. I'm just pointing to the logical conclusion if it is.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> You're saying this in a thread started by a christian addressing the "doubters and deniers".
> 
> I'm still trying to figure out which atheist dragged you in here from the turkey forum and insisted you continue to grace us with your presence.


Now I’m here just because I know it bothers you.


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 1, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> but I have seen Buddhist convert. I have seen Hindus reject a lifetime of teaching and beliefs.  I have seen Muslims abandon their communities and become Christians.  Why do you think they would do that?
> 
> I find no truth in what the Krishna, Buddhist, Hindu or Muslims teach.  The truth I find in scripture has change me. I am not the person I was before I committed my life to Christ.  I find truth in scripture.  That is why I believe.
> 
> ...





> but I have seen Buddhist convert. I have seen Hindus reject a lifetime of teaching and beliefs.  I have seen Muslims abandon their communities and become Christians.  Why do you think they would do that?


The message they heard met their internal needs?
There is always going to be some number of people converting from one thing to the other. Christians to A/As, A/As to Christian, Christian to Muslim, Muslim to Christian, meat eaters to vegetarian, and on and on.


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> It also seems that Christianity has spread more when access to information about it was less.
> Now, with the internet The Word can get almost anywhere instantly but the growth doesn't show it especially in places with the easiest access.




So what you're saying is "The internet is the work of the Devil".


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 1, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I have answered each question every time.
> 
> You just don't like the answers I gave you.
> 
> ...



I assume it's not your place to form an opinion about the proportionality of God's punishment to the offence.


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I know it.  I said several posts back that the atheists here have heard the gospel and said, “Naw I’m good.  This ain’t for me.  I’ve got better ideas.” so they’ve made their decision and should be allowed the freedom to live or die with it same as I do with my beliefs.  But a few of these guys don’t want you to do that.  They want you to argue with them about something they have their mind made up about.




Christians share the Gospel because they believe they are commissioned to do it.  I continue the discussion agains it because I actually think those kinds of beliefs divide people and corrupt people's sense of justice.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> @Spotlite


No. Those that reject it increase that number. 

But analyzing that has nothing to do with my saying let’s nit be so quick to do God’s judging.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Christians share the Gospel because they believe they are commissioned to do it.  I continue the discussion agains it because I actually think those kinds of beliefs divide people and corrupt people's sense of justice.


I don’t see how they corrupt people more than thinking there is nothing bigger than us and that we are the most important thing in creation.


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Now I’m here just because I know it bothers you.


Thats ^ pretty sad you know.
And then you turn around and question why we are here???


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 1, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I assume it's not your place to form an opinion about the proportionality of God's punishment to the offence.


Thats how I read his responses to the questions. I can understand it even though thats not how we do/see things.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> No. Those that reject it increase that number.
> 
> But analyzing that has nothing to do with my saying let’s nit be so quick to do God’s judging.



Right and those that never hear the gospel in the first place don't if they aren't condemned. If you're saying they have a shot at redemption after death then why bother spreading the gospel at all in this life when there is more room for doubt than if you're actually standing there in the afterlife being given a choice?


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I don’t see how they corrupt people more than thinking there is nothing bigger than us and that we are the most important thing in creation.



Didn't the church persecute the first scientists to propose that wasn't the case?


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Didn't the church persecute the first scientists to propose that wasn't the case?


Didnt atheistic authoritarian regime of Soviet Russia starve and execute millions of their own citizens and imprison millions more?  Isn’t communist China currently doing the same thing.  North Korea?  Gotcha is fun isn’t it?


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Thats ^ pretty sad you know.
> And then you turn around and question why we are here???


Getting in where I fit in oh wise one.


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I don’t see how they corrupt people more than thinking there is nothing bigger than us and that we are the most important thing in creation.



Actually, the Bible tells people that each and every one of us is special, and even more special if they are saved.  Without that concept, we are all the same, insignificant dust balls, trying our best to live through the shared misery that is existence.  With the realization that the value each of us has comes from our relationships and our actions towards each other, those that reject the premise that some of us are bound for eternal torment can empathize more deeply with our shared struggle.  We can save each other here and now, not in some possible future utopia.  It's the most humble and most accurate position to take, as far as I can tell. 

The very notion of eternal torment is corrupt.


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Getting in where I fit in oh wise one.


My observation required very little wisdom.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> My observation required very little wisdom.


You take yourself way too seriously.  Some of these are jokes.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Didnt atheistic authoritarian regime of Soviet Russia starve and execute millions of their own citizens and imprison millions more?  Isn’t communist China currently doing the same thing.  North Korea?  Gotcha is fun isn’t it?


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> You take yourself way too seriously.  Some of these are jokes.


Thats my bad then. I dont know you well enough yet to tell when you are joking.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


>


Ha!  I figured you would dodge that.  Nice one there Patches O’Houlihan.


----------



## 660griz (Apr 1, 2022)

God killed EVERYTHING on earth except for a select few. Every tree, child, and puppy and cute little Koala. God...for the win!


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> What have you lost since you gave up your faith?



Nothing comes to mind. I guess maybe the hope that I might again be with loved ones who died.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Ha!  I figured you would dodge that.  Nice one there Patches O’Houlihan.



The dodge was on your part. The point is that you're attempting to assign viewpoints to unbelievers that actually are far more commonly held by believers.


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Didnt atheistic authoritarian regime of Soviet Russia starve and execute millions of their own citizens and imprison millions more?  Isn’t communist China currently doing the same thing.  North Korea?  Gotcha is fun isn’t it?



So there are philosophical positions that can be used to justify atrocity.  Are some more prone to that than others?  I think so.  I called religion a life hack before and that's what it is.  It's a short cut to a moral framework. It's a "Because I told you so", which is a much less effective motivator than a belief system that was arrived at through reasoning, understanding, and deep consideration, and it has to be enforced by fear.  Many secular dogmas use the same blunt tool to enforce submission.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> The dodge was on your part. The point is that you're attempting to assign viewpoints to unbelievers that actually are far more commonly held by believers.


Says you.  Its just an inconvenient fact that far more people have been slaughtered at the hands of atheistic dictatorships and it’s not even close and you are trying to obfuscate.  It’s hilarious.


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Nothing comes to mind. I guess maybe the hope that I might again be with loved ones who died.



That would be nice, provided that you would retain what made you like each other in the first place.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Right and those that never hear the gospel in the first place don't if they aren't condemned. If you're saying they have a shot at redemption after death then why bother spreading the gospel at all in this life when there is more room for doubt than if you're actually standing there in the afterlife being given a choice?


Then we’re offering excuses.

I’m not saying they do or do not have a shot. I’m saying we shouldn’t be the ones determining their outcome. I find it hard to believe there are many places left on this planet that’s isolated from the rest of the world. If they’re there then they might be truly blind and according to John 9 only one knows that.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Says you.  Its just an inconvenient fact that far more people have been slaughtered at the hands of atheistic dictatorships and it’s not even close and you are trying to obfuscate.  It’s hilarious.



I can't think of a single atheist that posits the universe is all about them or humanity. Theists on the other hand...


----------



## 660griz (Apr 1, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> So there are philosophical positions that can be used to justify atrocity.  Are some more prone to that than others?  I think so.  I called religion a life hack before and that's what it is.  It's a short cut to a moral framework. It's a "Because I told you so", which is a much less effective motivator than a belief system that was arrived at through reasoning, understanding, and deep consideration, and it has to be enforced by fear.  Many secular dogmas use the same blunt tool to enforce submission.


True. There is the just bad person and then there is the 'bad' person hiding behind in the name of God. Not many people killed in the name of Atheist. Lots of folks killed in the name of God...and enslaved, hung, burned, etc. 

"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion."  ---Steven Weinberg


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> I can't think of a single atheist that posits the universe is all about them or humanity. Theists on the other hand...


If there is no God…


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 1, 2022)

I've heard many say that when they started following Christ, that they became better people.  Is it possible to have found another reason to be a better person? 

I've also heard people say that the biggest reason to be saved is to ensure that their immortal soul will reside in paradise as opposed to eternal torment.  

I've heard others say that they would obey God and his commandments to love Him and worship Him even if it were His plan to send them to eternal torment.  That one is weird to me.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Then we’re offering excuses.
> 
> I’m not saying they do or do not have a shot. I’m saying we shouldn’t be the ones determining their outcome. I find it hard to believe there are many places left on this planet that’s isolated from the rest of the world. If they’re there then they might be truly blind and according to John 9 only one knows that.



I'm not asking anyone to determine their outcome. I'm just pointing out what believers and their religious text say on the matter.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Nothing comes to mind. I guess maybe the hope that I might again be with loved ones who died.


That’s all that most folks have is hope. That’s what faith is - substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 

This way of life isn’t hard and doesn’t restrict us from doing anything except what humanity already frowns on. 

We’re hoping for something more than lying in a grave rotten. If it’s there that hope we grabbed on to is worth it, if it’s not we’ll never know.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> I'm not asking anyone to determine their outcome. I'm just pointing out what believers and their religious text say on the matter.


Non believers do too - cruel and unjust system. I was just pointing that out.


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> That’s all that most folks have is hope. That’s what faith is - substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
> 
> This way of life isn’t hard and doesn’t restrict us from doing anything except what humanity already frowns on.
> 
> We’re hoping for something more than lying in a grave rotten. If it’s there that hope we grabbed on to is worth it, if it’s not we’ll never know.



I want some Bigrock Candy Mountain.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Didnt atheistic authoritarian regime of Soviet Russia starve and execute millions of their own citizens and imprison millions more?  Isn’t communist China currently doing the same thing.  North Korea?  Gotcha is fun isn’t it?


Those Regimes don't do those things in the name of No God.
Those are Regimes that represent themselves because they are self serving. Sure they happen to be Atheistic, but one goes with the other.  Because they are Atheists they are only doing those things to serve themselves.  It takes a special kind of scummy to do those things in the name of a loving God.
It's like saying a guy robbed a bank because he was an Atheist. No, he just also happens to be an Atheist who robbed a bank. He did it for his own gain.
Same as a guy who robs a bank and afterwards it is found out that he is a Christian.  Being Christian has no reflection on him being a bank robber UNLESS he announces that he robs banks in the name of Jesus. Otherwise him being a Christian is just an anecdote.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Those Regimes don't do those things in the name of No God.
> Those are Regimes that represent themselves because they are self serving. Sure they happen to be Atheistic, but one goes with the other.  Because they are Atheists they are only doing those things to serve themselves.  It takes a special kind of scummy to do those things in the name of a loving God.
> It's like saying a guy robbed a bank because he was an Atheist. No, he just also happens to be an Atheist who robbed a bank. He did it for his own gain.
> Same as a guy who robs a bank and afterwards it is found out that he is a Christian.  Being Christian has no reflection on him being a bank robber UNLESS he announces that he robs banks in the name of Jesus. Otherwise him being a Christian is just an anecdote.


And the error in your thinking is that those who committed  those atrocities in the name of God were actually Christians rather than people using Christianity as a means to an end.  The Bible does t teach us to tell people to convert or die.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Those Regimes don't do those things in the name of No God.
> Those are Regimes that represent themselves because they are self serving. Sure they happen to be Atheistic, but one goes with the other.  Because they are Atheists they are only doing those things to serve themselves.  It takes a special kind of scummy to do those things in the name of a loving God.
> It's like saying a guy robbed a bank because he was an Atheist. No, he just also happens to be an Atheist who robbed a bank. He did it for his own gain.
> Same as a guy who robs a bank and afterwards it is found out that he is a Christian.  Being Christian has no reflection on him being a bank robber UNLESS he announces that he robs banks in the name of Jesus. Otherwise him being a Christian is just an anecdote.


Also, atheism is t as disconnected to those regimes as y’all need it to be.  They can’t allow there to be something bigger than the regime.  See the genocide against Chinese Muslims.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> And the error in your thinking is that those who commuted those atrocities in the name of God were actually Christians rather than people using Christianity as a means to an end.  The Bible does t teach us to tell people to convert or die.


Whether or not they were Christians is another debate but Nobody gained more from their actions than Christians and the Church.


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Also, atheism is t as disconnected to those regimes as y’all need it to be.  They can’t allow there to be something bigger than the regime.  See the genocide against Chinese Muslims.



They replaced one God with another.  Maybe the problem is with making "Gods".


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Whether or not they were Christians is another debate but Nobody gained more from their actions than Christians and the Church.


You really think so?  Christianity is still paying for it.  It’s the reason lots of people want nothing to do with it.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 1, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I've heard many say that when they started following Christ, that they became better people.  Is it possible to have found another reason to be a better person?
> 
> I've also heard people say that the biggest reason to be saved is to ensure that their immortal soul will reside in paradise as opposed to eternal torment.
> 
> I've heard others say that they would obey God and his commandments to love Him and worship Him even if it were His plan to send them to eternal torment.  That one is weird to me.


I've seen the birth of a child, death of a loved one, a good woman and a sunrise in deer season change people for the better also.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 1, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I want some Bigrock Candy Mountain.


I suggest a candy store lol


----------



## bullethead (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Also, atheism is t as disconnected to those regimes as y’all need it to be.  They can’t allow there to be something bigger than the regime.  See the genocide against Chinese Muslims.


That is a Regime problem. It happens with and without beliefs in God or gods.


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 1, 2022)

Commie or Christian?

"Do not question Him or His wisdom."


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I suggest a candy store lol




C'mon, Man.  Hens lay soft boiled eggs.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> They replaced one God with another.  Maybe the problem is with making "Gods".


People do that no matter what regardless of how vociferously they claim otherwise.  There are people in this forum who worship there own “intelligence”.


----------



## 660griz (Apr 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> That is a Regime problem. It happens with and without beliefs in God or gods.


True. It wouldn't be fair to attribute Hitler's death toll to religion even though he was a believer. He was just a nut job.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> You really think so?  Christianity is still paying for it.  It’s the reason lots of people want nothing to do with it.


Absolutely,  history is full of examples of where the spoils of war in God's name has created followers, riches, land and nations from a path of destruction. 
Ask the Native Americans how they were doing beforehand.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> That is a Regime problem. It happens with and without beliefs in God or gods.


Where God is absent all is permitted.  As we become increasingly secular in this country now people can’t even agree that men are men and women are women.  Now pedophilia is being normalized.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Absolutely,  history is full of examples of where the spoils of war in God's name has created followers, riches, land and nations from a path of destruction.
> Ask the Native Americans how they were doing beforehand.


I know that.  Where you’ve got it jacked up is thinking no price has been paid for that.  You seem to be arguing that Christianity got off Scott free and that is far from the truth.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> People do that no matter what regardless of how vociferously they claim otherwise.  There are people in this forum who worship there own “intelligence”.


Now see there you go with throwing in a ridiculous claim as if it was fact just because you work it out that way in your mind.
Honestly, can you explain who exactly worships their own intelligence and how they go about it?


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Now see there you go with throwing in a ridiculous claim as if it was fact just because you work it out that way in your mind.
> Honestly, can you explain who exactly worships their own intelligence and how they go about it?


I see it posted here all the time that people don’t need God because they have worked out their own thing that works for them.  That is essentially putting yourself in the place of God.  “Nah I do t believe in all of that because I know better.”  Is making yourself God whether you see it that way or not.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

I’ll check in later.  A Marine buddy of mine is here from Atlanta and we only get together a few times a year to hunt and fish.  I have better things to do.  I’ll check back later.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Where God is absent all is permitted.  As we become increasingly secular in this country now people can’t even agree that men are men and women are women.  Now pedophilia is being normalized.


I've got news for you Christians diddle kids, Christian guys dress like women, Christian women dress like men and do all the freaky deaky things that everyone else is accused of doing.
Again, it isnt ALL on either side, but it does exist within all beliefs or no beliefs.  Humans are an absolutely whacked species.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I've got news for you Christians diddle kids, Christian guys dress like women, Christian women dress like men and do all the freaky deaky things that everyone else is accused of doing.
> Again, it isnt ALL on either side, but it does exist within all beliefs or no beliefs.  Humans are an absolutely whacked species.


Yep.  And Christianity is against all that.  Those are secular actions.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> If there is no God…



What about this would tell you "there is nothing bigger than us and that we are the most important thing in creation"?


----------



## bullethead (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I see it posted here all the time that people don’t need God because they have worked out their own thing that works for them.  That is essentially putting yourself in the place of God.  “Nah I do t believe in all of that because I know better.”  Is making yourself God whether you see it that way or not.


That is NOT worship


----------



## bullethead (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Yep.  And Christianity is against all that.  Those are secular actions.


A chain is as strong as its weakest link.
If there was someway to weed everyone out except "REAL" Christians, what would there be 5? real Christians on the planet? Maybe 100?


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> People do that no matter what regardless of how vociferously they claim otherwise.  There are people in this forum who worship there own “intelligence”.



Explain how you're using the word worship here.


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> People do that no matter what regardless of how vociferously they claim otherwise.  There are people in this forum who worship there own “intelligence”.



If that's true (and I think it might be) that people have a propensity to seek something "bigger" than them, do you think it's better or worse for everybody if some people think they know what that is?  I think if we all pursued that, whatever it is, with true humility, without the pretense that we know what it is and they don't, that we would flourish more well.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> That’s all that most folks have is hope. That’s what faith is - substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
> 
> This way of life isn’t hard and doesn’t restrict us from doing anything except what humanity already frowns on.
> 
> We’re hoping for something more than lying in a grave rotten. If it’s there that hope we grabbed on to is worth it, if it’s not we’ll never know.



I get it. I really do. But I came to realize I already have something more than rotting away in a grave. I have it today and every day I live. If that's all there is I ought to appreciate it, treasure it, and accept that it's enough. It would be incredibly selfish of me to insist on more than that and even worse to squander it engaged in wish thinking for more when I already have so much. I'd rather have no hope at all than a false hope that soothes my fears and denies reality. And when the time comes for me to be no more, to rot away in a grave I hope I have the courage and integrity to face it head on and to accept it. To give back to nature with a grateful heart those little bits that were never truly mine but only borrowed for a time.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 1, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> If that's true (and I think it might be) that people have a propensity to seek something "bigger" that them, do you think it's better or worse for everybody if some people think they know what that is?  I think if we all pursued that, whatever it is, with true humility, without the pretense that we know what is and they don't, that we would flourish more well.


Some people trust in themselves. Some people trust in other things.


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I see it posted here all the time that people don’t need God because they have worked out their own thing that works for them.  That is essentially putting yourself in the place of God.  “Nah I do t believe in all of that because I know better.”  Is making yourself God whether you see it that way or not.




"Nah, I don't believe in all that atheism because I know better".  

I'm persuaded by utility.


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Some people trust in themselves. Some people trust in other things.



I trust the process of discovery.


----------



## 660griz (Apr 1, 2022)

FYI Pedophilia was sanctioned by the church (child marriages) for a long time in US history and still is in other religions. A lot of that can be placed on when God determined girls to be child bearing women and men to be able to support both.

And that is the last I will post on the subject. Makes me feel icky just typing it.


----------



## buckpasser (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> What about this would tell you "there is nothing bigger than us and that we are the most important thing in creation"?



I know it wasn’t my question, but that chart is the “proof” that y’all figured it all out. It’s the anti-God, created by….wait for it…man!  It puts human intelligence as God, just as he accused, by being static and changing (by man) to thumb it’s nose at God.  BTW, it takes so much more faith to believe in that series of events happening without an engineer than it does to just believe in creation by God. You guys actually have some serious faith. It’s Sasquatch and leprechaun kind of stuff. Bravo!


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Where God is absent all is permitted.  As we become increasingly secular in this country now people can’t even agree that men are men and women are women.  Now pedophilia is being normalized.



It is a tough road without the "ready guide" life hack.  It's messy, but luckily, within ALL the religious texts, and fables and Greek tragedies, even Marvel Comics, are millennia worth of observations, insights, and clues as to what constitutes a good life.


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 1, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I know it wasn’t my question, but that chart is the “proof” that y’all figured it all out. It’s the anti-God, created by….wait for it…man!  It puts human intelligence as God, just as he accused, by being static and changing (by man) to thumb it’s nose at God.  BTW, it takes so much more faith to believe in that series of events happening without an engineer than it does to just believe in creation by God. You guys actually have some serious faith. It’s Sasquatch and leprechaun kind of stuff. Bravo!



The epitome of human intelligence is the understanding of how little we know.  I imagine you believe that you know what God wants for your life and what He wants for all our lives.  You probably think he expresses His will through your reading of His book and when He talks directly to you through prayer or through an agent like a Pastor. 


That's a mighty special arrangement you've got there.  If only everybody would listen to you.....


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> They replaced one God with another.  Maybe the problem is with making "Gods".



I'm reminded of Hitchens who made the point North Korea is the most theocratic state on the planet. It's essentially heaven on earth and with Kim Jong-un it's become a trinitarian religion.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Apr 1, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I know it wasn’t my question, but that chart is the “proof” that y’all figured it all out. It’s the anti-God, created by….wait for it…man!  It puts human intelligence as God, just as he accused, by being static and changing (by man) to thumb it’s nose at God.  BTW, it takes so much more faith to believe in that series of events happening without an engineer than it does to just believe in creation by God. You guys actually have some serious faith. It’s Sasquatch and leprechaun kind of stuff. Bravo!


What if that's exactly how God created it all? I don't see them as mutually exclusive.


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> I'm reminded of Hitchens who made the point North Korea is the most theocratic state on the planet. It's essentially heaven on earth and with Kim Jong-un it's become a trinitarian religion.



If you really think about how believers describe Heaven, where there is no free will to sin and that you spend all day euphoric at the foot of the throne, I can see the similarity (except for the suffering part, which is huge).


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I know it wasn’t my question, but that chart is the “proof” that y’all figured it all out. It’s the anti-God, created by….wait for it…man!  It puts human intelligence as God, just as he accused, by being static and changing (by man) to thumb it’s nose at God.  BTW, it takes so much more faith to believe in that series of events happening without an engineer than it does to just believe in creation by God. You guys actually have some serious faith. It’s Sasquatch and leprechaun kind of stuff. Bravo!



Must have struck a nerve.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> What if that's exactly how God created it all? I don't see them as mutually exclusive.



The problem is it doesn't comport with what the bible says.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> The problem is it doesn't comport with what the bible says.


Except the Bible was written by folks who had no concept of modern science to explain things. How long is a day to God, anyway?


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Except the Bible was written by folks who had no concept of modern science to explain things. How long is a day to God, anyway?



They had no concept of a lot of things but it's not just the time scale that is an issue. It conflicts with the order of events. It conflicts with the idea of an original man and original sin which is the whole basis for the idea we are fallen and need salvation. It creates questions around the idea that humans have eternal spirits but animals don't. How did that come to be if our populations evolved and there was no first human? It really opens up a whole pandoras box of issues not to mention it rubs against the idea that we are the centerpiece of creation. They are afraid chipping away at the veracity of Genesis is like pulling that little thread that eventually unravels the entire sweater, and they probably should be.


----------



## Nicodemus (Apr 1, 2022)

Where do the Denisovans, Neanderthals, and Cro Magnons fit into all this?


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> Where do the Denisovans, Neanderthals, and Cro Magnons fit into all this?



Hey Nic! How's the knee?


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> They had no concept of a lot of things but it's not just the time scale that is an issue. It conflicts with the order of events. It conflicts with the idea of an original man and original sin which is the whole basis for the idea we are fallen and need salvation. It creates questions around the idea that humans have eternal spirits but animals don't. How did that come to be if our populations evolved and there was no first human? It really opens up a whole pandoras box of issues not to mention it rubs against the idea that we are the centerpiece of creation. They are afraid chipping away at the veracity of Genesis is like pulling that little thread that eventually unravels the entire sweater, and they probably should be.




I predict, and it's not really that brave of a bet, that more and more of the Bible stories that contradict our understanding of the physical world will be contextualized as metaphor.  That's been the trend and I don't see why it won't continue.


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 1, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Except the Bible was written by folks who had no concept of modern science to explain things. How long is a day to God, anyway?



Ah.  The Scopes Monkey Trial defence.


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 1, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> Where do the Denisovans, Neanderthals, and Cro Magnons fit into all this?



That would depend on what your definition of "kind" is. 

https://answersingenesis.org/creation-science/baraminology/what-are-kinds-in-genesis/

Ken Hamm would say that those folks you mention were all humans just like us, in the same way that dachshunds are the same "kind" as German Shepherds.  That's the Young Earth Creationist explanation, anyway.


----------



## Nicodemus (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Hey Nic! How's the knee?




Still a good bit of pain, but each day I can feel more strength returning to it, and I`m stretching it a little as I go through the day. I start therapy next week and I know it`s gonna be mean, but the efforts and final results will be well worth it.

Thanks for asking, A.


----------



## Israel (Apr 1, 2022)

Since the believer's faith hinges totally upon the resurrection of that man Jesus (the Christ) we are already "in" for any and all sorts of miraculous and otherwise inexplicable matters.

With God all things are possible.

But since I can't even explain _why and how_ a single cell "lives", (and making up words to explain processes observed answers neither question) what problem would such a one have with anything else that appears inexplicable?


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 1, 2022)

Israel said:


> Since the believer's faith hinges totally upon the resurrection of that man Jesus (the Christ) we are already "in" for any and all sorts of miraculous and otherwise inexplicable matters.
> 
> With God all things are possible.
> 
> But since I can't even explain _why and how_ a single cell "lives", (and making up words to explain processes observed answers neither question) what problem would such a one have with anything else that appears inexplicable?



It's good to imagine and dream and hope all the while dealing directly with reality.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> Still a good bit of pain, but each day I can feel more strength returning to it, and I`m stretching it a little as I go through the day. I start therapy next week and I know it`s gonna be mean, but the efforts and final results will be well worth it.
> 
> Thanks for asking, A.



I've heard it's pretty rough in the beginning but once you recover it's great. Hope it's a quick recovery for you.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> It is a tough road without the "ready guide" life hack.  It's messy, but luckily, within ALL the religious texts, and fables and Greek tragedies, even Marvel Comics, are millennia worth of observations, insights, and clues as to what constitutes a good life.


No doubt.  Look I don’t care if you want to call my beliefs a “life hack” but contrast my reaction to that bit if mockery to the crying and screaming that took place when I said atheists are soft.?


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> "Nah, I don't believe in all that atheism because I know better".
> 
> I'm persuaded by utility.


And you’re free to do so. But when you decide there is nothing bigger or anything that knows better or when you decide you are more moral than God you’ve made yourself God.  Some folks here might not like hearing it said that way but it’s true.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> If that's true (and I think it might be) that people have a propensity to seek something "bigger" than them, do you think it's better or worse for everybody if some people think they know what that is?  I think if we all pursued that, whatever it is, with true humility, without the pretense that we know what it is and they don't, that we would flourish more well.


All I can tell you is I don’t see much humility here at all.  Quite the opposite.  Second, I’ve admitted I’m not a good person in a lot of ways.  I try and fail.  I’ve also admitted over and over that I can’t prove that I’m right.  None of that bothers me.  It bothers all of you.  I know some folks who are atheists who are alright.  But an awful lot of them seem like sensitive, anxious people with a chip on their shoulder and humble being about the last thing they are.  Some of the cockiest people I’ve run across on GON post right here on the regular.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Except the Bible was written by folks who had no concept of modern science to explain things. How long is a day to God, anyway?


So was the constitution.  So what?  This sounds like the liberal argument against the 2A.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> And you’re free to do so. But when you decide there is nothing bigger or anything that knows better or when you decide you are more moral than God you’ve made yourself God.  Some folks here might not like hearing it said that way but it’s true.


If someone believed in a God and still thought that way you would be right.
If someone doesn't believe in a God there is nothing "higher" to compare themselves to. I don't consider any specific god into it whatsoever. 
You are basing your claim off of non believers believing in a god and that just isn't so.

What you are saying is the equivalent of a Muslim telling you that you think that you have better morals than Allah, or a non believers saying that you think you have better morals than any fictional character you "know of".
You dont acknowledge either and dont consider them into the mix.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> If someone believed in a God and still thought that way you would be right.
> If someone doesn't believe in a God there is nothing "higher" to compare themselves to. I don't consider any specific god into it whatsoever.
> You are basing your claim off of non believers believing in a god and that just isn't so.
> 
> ...


Well one thing I know for sure, when you believe in nothing you can justify anything.  So I guess we are at an impasse.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> All I can tell you is I don’t see much humility here at all.  Quite the opposite.  Second, I’ve admitted I’m not a good person in a lot of ways.  I try and fail.  I’ve also admitted over and over that I can’t prove that I’m right.  None of that bothers me.  It bothers all of you.  I know some folks who are atheists who are alright.  But an awful lot of them seem like sensitive, anxious people with a chip on their shoulder and humble being about the last thing they are.  Some of the cockiest people I’ve run across on GON post right here on the regular.


Like you've admitted to before ,you fit right in then so the criticism is hypocrisy.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Like you've admitted to before ,you fit right in then so the criticism is hypocrisy.


You don’t know the half of it.  The difference is I dont think I’m the highest form of existence in the universe and the arbiter of morality.  That’s a level of arrogance I dont guess I’m capable of even with all my other flaws.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Well one thing I know for sure, when you believe in nothing you can justify anything.  So I guess we are at an impasse.


Or if someone admits that there may be something out there that they do not understand and do not know or know of but has ruled out the different mans versions of gods.....they are not Atheists 
And even Atheists can believe in themselves,  others or different things but that doesn't men they worship any of them.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Or if someone admits that there may be something out there that they do not understand and do not know or know of but has ruled out the different mans versions of gods.....they are not Atheists
> And even Atheists can believe in themselves,  others or different things but that doesn't men they worship any of them.


?


----------



## bullethead (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> You don’t know the half of it.  The difference is I dont think I’m the highest form of existence in the universe and the arbiter of morality.  That’s a level of arrogance I dont guess I’m capable of even with all my other flaws.


There is nothing in the "how to be a human handbook" that says anyone must acknowledge a higher power.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> The difference is I dont think I’m the highest form of existence in the universe and the arbiter of morality.



Neither did the 9/11 hijackers.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Neither did the 9/11 hijackers.


Yeah I’m definitely just like them.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> There is nothing in the "how to be a human handbook" that says anyone must acknowledge a higher power.


Ok.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Yeah I’m definitely just like them.



I'm not saying you are but when you abandon responsibility for your morality and put it on some "higher power" that doesn't exist you're entering dangerous territory.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> I'm not saying you are but when you abandon responsibility for your morality and put it on some "higher power" that doesn't exist you're entering dangerous territory.


I would ask you to pray for me but I guess that’s out.


----------



## Israel (Apr 1, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> It's good to imagine and dream and hope all the while dealing directly with reality.


Yes, it is. And my hope is to the extreme...that "the reality" is far greater than I could even imagine or dream.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> I get it. I really do. But I came to realize I already have something more than rotting away in a grave. I have it today and every day I live. If that's all there is I ought to appreciate it, treasure it, and accept that it's enough. It would be incredibly selfish of me to insist on more than that and even worse to squander it engaged in wish thinking for more when I already have so much. I'd rather have no hope at all than a false hope that soothes my fears and denies reality. And when the time comes for me to be no more, to rot away in a grave I hope I have the courage and integrity to face it head on and to accept it. To give back to nature with a grateful heart those little bits that were never truly mine but only borrowed for a time.


Nothing wrong with that. I too, live life to it`s fullest everyday. I don`t see it as selfish if it is promised.

And I don’t see it as false hope, reality denial or a fear of dying. 

I know you’ve been to church, I know you probably got into it a little here and there. But when God comes in there’s no denying it in any way.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> So was the constitution.  So what?  This sounds like the liberal argument against the 2A.


Not a valid comparison. The Constitution wasn't written 2,000 years ago by nomadic goatherders. Some of those folks were pretty sharp and scientifically minded, like Jefferson for sure. Things advanced quite a bit between the BC years and the late 1700s. The Genesis creation story just isn't very valid to me. Plants (which live by photosynthesis,)  created before the sun was? Yep, that'll work.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> You don’t know the half of it.  The difference is I dont think I’m the highest form of existence in the universe and the arbiter of morality.  That’s a level of arrogance I dont guess I’m capable of even with all my other flaws.


I don't think I am any more important in the overall scheme of things than a deer mouse, bug, or any other critter. To myself or my family, sure. To the planet, no.


----------



## jrickman (Apr 1, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Not a valid comparison. The Constitution wasn't written 2,000 years ago by nomadic goatherders. Some of those folks were pretty sharp and scientifically minded, like Jefferson for sure. Things advanced quite a bit between the BC years and the late 1700s. The Genesis creation story just isn't very valid to me. Plants (which live by photosynthesis,)  created before the sun was? Yep, that'll work.



Light came first.


----------



## buckpasser (Apr 1, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> What if that's exactly how God created it all? I don't see them as mutually exclusive.



I’m glad you mentioned that. That’s why I said “without a creator”. Wouldn’t be too surprised if that’s basically how He did it, but to think it just happened…wow.


----------



## buckpasser (Apr 1, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Except the Bible was written by folks who had no concept of modern science to explain things. How long is a day to God, anyway?



Oh, absolutely on the day length, seriously.


----------



## buckpasser (Apr 1, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I don't think I am any more important in the overall scheme of things than a deer mouse, bug, or any other critter. To myself or my family, sure. To the planet, no.



We differ on that one Sir.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> If only those who hear the gospel and reject it are condemned aren't you increasing the number of condemned by spreading the gospel?



Not really, because if it wasn't you, it would be somebody else spreading it to the condemned eventually.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Apr 1, 2022)

jrickman said:


> Light came first.


Now, explain to me how there was light without the sun, which was created a couple days after light. I'm waiting. And I will not agree with your answer, because it won't make sense.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 1, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Now, explain to me how there was light without the sun. I'm waiting.


According to the Bible who is the light, causes light, spoke it into existence, etc?

It’s not a question of it’s humanly possible, the Bible is based on miraculous deity not limited to human knowledge.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Apr 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> According to the Bible who is the light, causes light, spoke it into existence, etc?
> 
> It’s not a question of it’s humanly possible, the Bible is based on miraculous deity not limited to human knowledge.


Why do we only have light now from the sun? You aren't being very convincing to me at the moment. Light simply doesn't exist on this planet, except that generated from the sun, other suns, lightning, bioluminescent organisms, or human technology.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Apr 1, 2022)

Israel said:


> Thankfully, His mercy is not dependent upon our sincerity.



Okay that is really mind blowing when you think about it:
Essentially you would have to have one part of your mind/personality (the sincere part) that can believe and accept god against all the logic and reasoning from the other part of your mind/personality. The two parts of your mind would be in conflict, with one part or the other being stronger depending on the circumstances, which would change (even if subconsciously) countless times throughout the day. 

So check this out: if God can read your mind (know what's in your heart) he would know that one part of you (the reasoning part) doesn't really deep-down believe in the bible (his word, thus god himself) but the sincere part of you is trying your best to play the role of the non-questioning, non-doubting believer and trying to suppress the logical part of you. So I guess God would know that you are as sincere as an intelligent, educated human can be, considering that the intelligent, educated part of you is giving the God fearing/God loving  part of you a steady beat-down.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Apr 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> It also seems that Christianity has spread more when access to information about it was less.
> Now, with the internet The Word can get almost anywhere instantly but the growth doesn't show it especially in places with the easiest access.



Because that same internet brings people countless amounts of data that offer facts, viewpoints, philosophies, and - yes - frivolous entertainment, that might conflict with the gospel or (most likely) put the gospel on the backburner. 

When there is no other game in town, the guy bringing the gospel might sound pretty interesting to you.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Apr 1, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I've heard many say that when they started following Christ, that they became better people.  Is it possible to have found another reason to be a better person?
> 
> I've also heard people say that the biggest reason to be saved is to ensure that their immortal soul will reside in paradise as opposed to eternal torment.
> 
> I've heard others say that they would obey God and his commandments to love Him and worship Him even if it were His plan to send them to eternal torment.  That one is weird to me.



Yes, that is "the battered wife" syndrome to the extreme right there!


----------



## jrickman (Apr 1, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Now, explain to me how there was light without the sun, which was created a couple days after light. I'm waiting. And I will not agree with your answer, because it won't make sense.



If you’re going to cite the Bible as a source for your claim that plants came before the sun (which is correct), I think you sort of have to acknowledge the rest of the text along with that, no?


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 1, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Why do we only have light now from the sun? You aren't being very convincing to me at the moment. Light simply doesn't exist on this planet, except that generated from the sun, other suns, lightning, bioluminescent organisms, or human technology.


Read below, again. Specifically the red highlighted. 


Spotlite said:


> According to the Bible who is the light, causes light, spoke it into existence, etc?
> 
> It’s not a question of it’s humanly possible, the Bible is based on miraculous deity not limited to human knowledge.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Apr 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Read below, again.


Magic. Got it. That ceased to exist immediately afterwards, and doesn't now. Very convincing.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Apr 1, 2022)

jrickman said:


> If you’re going to cite the Bible as a source for your claim that plants came before the sun (which is correct), I think you sort of have to acknowledge the rest of the text along with that, no?


I will ask you the same question. How do you get light without the sun?


----------



## oldfella1962 (Apr 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> That’s all that most folks have is hope. That’s what faith is - substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
> 
> This way of life isn’t hard and doesn’t restrict us from doing anything except what humanity already frowns on.
> 
> We’re hoping for something more than lying in a grave rotten. If it’s there that hope we grabbed on to is worth it, if it’s not we’ll never know.



But "we" won't be rotting in a grave, our bodies will rot in a grave. We won't exist. We will go back to doing whatever we did before we were born, which is a whole lot of nothing, as far as I can remember. 

As for having hope, keep in mind that billions of people are currently grabbing onto hope provided by different religions entirely. The vast majority are nothing but false hope when looked at from the Christian perspective. But Christianity is false hope from the perspective of other religions. 

Could religion/a belief in a higher power guiding our daily lives be a result of the highly evolved, complicated human brain? Humans of all societies have a lot of abstract reasoning in other areas of brain function, so it stands to reason that religions would be expected, perhaps inevitable. And as discussed many times, there are thousands of different societies in the world with vastly different ideas and philosophies, so different religions would make sense.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Apr 1, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> But "we" won't be rotting in a grave, our bodies will rot in a grave. We won't exist. We will go back to doing whatever we did before we were born, which is a whole lot of nothing, as far as I can remember.
> 
> As for having hope, keep in mind that billions of people are currently grabbing onto hope provided by different religions entirely. The vast majority are nothing but false hope when looked at from the Christian perspective. But Christianity is false hope from the perspective of other religions.
> 
> Could religion/a belief in a higher power guiding our daily lives be a result of the highly evolved, complicated human brain? Humans of all societies have a lot of abstract reasoning in other areas of brain function, so it stands to reason that religions would be expected, perhaps inevitable. And as discussed many times, there are thousands of different societies in the world with vastly different ideas and philosophies, so different religions would make sense.


I think there is an inbred instinct for religion in humans.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 1, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Magic. Got it. That ceased to exist immediately afterwards, and doesn't now. Very convincing.


Not magic. I don’t know why you go way around the world just to say you don’t believe it lol.

But if we’re taking about the story, that’s what the story says, can’t change it.
If you’re taking about what science says, ok.

But, IF there’s a deity such as God that creates, controls and not limited to our human knowledge , that also includes science.

And once light was spoken into existence, there’s no need to re create it, right? Along with everything else. That’s why He created science for us to play with


----------



## oldfella1962 (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Where God is absent all is permitted.  As we become increasingly secular in this country now people can’t even agree that men are men and women are women.  Now pedophilia is being normalized.



99 percent of the people don't condone pedophilia and only think there are two genders. The media/government don't represent the vast majority of the people.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Apr 1, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I think there is an inbred instinct for religion in humans.



I agree! Because humans have evolved the ability to ask "the deep questions" and these questions need to be answered! Religion is a powerful way to attempt to deal with the one question that we can never answer. The question is "why?". 

Even if we can figure out "what" and "how" our abstract reasoning won't let us stop seeking more answers, IMHO.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 1, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> But "we" won't be rotting in a grave, our bodies will rot in a grave. We won't exist. We will go back to doing whatever we did before we were born, which is a whole lot of nothing, as far as I can remember.
> 
> As for having hope, keep in mind that billions of people are currently grabbing onto hope provided by different religions entirely. The vast majority are nothing but false hope when looked at from the Christian perspective. But Christianity is false hope from the perspective of other religions.
> 
> Could religion/a belief in a higher power guiding our daily lives be a result of the highly evolved, complicated human brain? Humans of all societies have a lot of abstract reasoning in other areas of brain function, so it stands to reason that religions would be expected, perhaps inevitable. And as discussed many times, there are thousands of different societies in the world with vastly different ideas and philosophies, so different religions would make sense.


I don’t know about all that as we were before we were born stuff, may have to elaborate a little more so I make sure I’m comprehending what you’re saying.

The Bible says to dust you will return. That’s your body (rotting). Your soul is a different topic.

I realize all of the different ideas, that doesn’t take away from God - which is more than a highly evolved complicated brain result.

I don’t know what the Indian finds in his god, I just know I don’t feel anything for or from it and don’t recognize it’s works. I’m not one to criticize or condemn the Indian, I just have to believe I found the truth and live with that because so far it works the way it’s described to me in the Bible.

One Christian explanation to so many beliefs is we fight a spiritual war, the god of this world (Satan) that deceives. Anything not of God is a false god under that spirit.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I think there is an inbred instinct for religion in humans.



I think you’re right about that.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Not a valid comparison. The Constitution wasn't written 2,000 years ago by nomadic goatherders. Some of those folks were pretty sharp and scientifically minded, like Jefferson for sure. Things advanced quite a bit between the BC years and the late 1700s. The Genesis creation story just isn't very valid to me. Plants (which live by photosynthesis,)  created before the sun was? Yep, that'll work.


Well the Bible has held up pretty good.  The ideas must not be too bad.


----------



## buckpasser (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Well the Bible has held up pretty good.  The ideas must not be too bad.



Looks like that ‘ol pesky Bible is gonna have a lot longer run than our enlightened constitution too.


----------



## jrickman (Apr 1, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I will ask you the same question. How do you get light without the sun?



I don't know what the source of the light was that God spoke into existence. What I do know is that the star in our solar system that we refer to as the sun is but one of millions of such stars, each generating light.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Apr 1, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I don't think I am any more important in the overall scheme of things than a deer mouse, bug, or any other critter. To myself or my family, sure. To the planet, no.



I agree! Almost very living thing on this planet is DNA based and has the same point of origin if traced back far enough. I don't think humans are the be all/end all of life on this planet. Yes the bible says that man has dominion over the lower creatures, but that's not my attitude about the subject. Humans are the one species that has the ability to write a bible so far, but our species will be extinct eventually. Most likely another more advanced hominid will be around in 100,000 years or so, but who knows?


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> 99 percent of the people don't condone pedophilia and only think there are two genders. The media/government don't represent the vast majority of the people.


I think that’s mostly true.   But if you believe in nothing you can be convinced of anything.  Where does morality come from?  Humans?  That’s a hoot.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Oh, absolutely on the day length, seriously.


We balk at “goat herders” but live our lives according to the words of the exact same type of men we don’t want bossing us around in the present time; wealthy elites.


----------



## Israel (Apr 2, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Okay that is really mind blowing when you think about it:
> Essentially you would have to have one part of your mind/personality (the sincere part) that can believe and accept god against all the logic and reasoning from the other part of your mind/personality. The two parts of your mind would be in conflict, with one part or the other being stronger depending on the circumstances, which would change (even if subconsciously) countless times throughout the day.
> 
> So check this out: if God can read your mind (know what's in your heart) he would know that one part of you (the reasoning part) doesn't really deep-down believe in the bible (his word, thus god himself) but the sincere part of you is trying your best to play the role of the non-questioning, non-doubting believer and trying to suppress the logical part of you. So I guess God would know that you are as sincere as an intelligent, educated human can be, considering that the intelligent, educated part of you is giving the God fearing/God loving  part of you a steady beat-down.




I appreciate that you have given it such thought. And to me it's obvious you have.
It delights me that you've done such a deep dive.

And yes! Yes, in so many ways with what follows your 



> "So check this out"



You've primed a pump. A gusher in fact.


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 2, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I think that’s mostly true.   But if you believe in nothing you can be convinced of anything.  Where does morality come from?  Humans?  That’s a hoot.


I dont get that ^ part.
Belief or disbelief in a god is but one of many things that humans believe or dont believe. How does not believing in one thing cancel out all the other things that one does believe in?
It strikes me as a Christian "feel good" phrase. "They dont believe in God therefore they dont believe in anything".
Nonsense.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 2, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> I dont get that ^ part.
> Belief or disbelief in a god is but one of many things that humans believe or dont believe. How does not believing in one thing cancel out all the other things that one does believe in?
> It strikes me as a Christian "feel good" phrase. "They dont believe in God therefore they dont believe in anything".
> Nonsense.


You think it’s nonsense.  I accept that.  I stand by it.


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 2, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> You think it’s nonsense.  I accept that.  I stand by it.


Thats fine.
Care to give my question a shot? -


> How does not believing in one thing cancel out all the other things that one does believe in?


----------



## bullethead (Apr 2, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> I dont get that ^ part.
> Belief or disbelief in a god is but one of many things that humans believe or dont believe. How does not believing in one thing cancel out all the other things that one does believe in?
> It strikes me as a Christian "feel good" phrase. "They dont believe in God therefore they dont believe in anything".
> Nonsense.


It's a twist of "If you don't stand for something,  you'll fall for anything " ~ Alexander Hamilton
And it was pointed out earlier with examples that the twist is not accurate due to it's narrow standard.
What is really being said is "if you don't believe in my God there is nothing else to belive in"
I would counter it with Believing in one God limits a person's ability to recognize all other just as likely possibilities.


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 2, 2022)

bullethead said:


> It's a twist of "If you don't stand for something,  you'll fall for anything " ~ Alexander Hamilton
> And it was pointed out earlier with examples that the twist is not accurate due to it's narrow standard.
> What is really being said is "if you don't believe in my God there is nothing else to belive in"
> I would counter it with Believing in one God limits a person's ability to recognize all other just as likely possibilities.


Its a statement that is so far removed from reality that I just cant understand how someone could actually believe it.
Believing in God is one thing.
Believing someone who doesnt believe in that same God therefore doesnt believe in anything is just ridiculous. 100% a "feel good" mindset.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Apr 2, 2022)

I have seen some pure-out heathens that had 100x better moral characters and that I would trust much, much further than some preachers, deacons, and such that I've known. And I'll go ahead and say it for you and save the trouble: those aren't "real" Christians.  There are about ten of those on earth, apparently.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 2, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I have seen some pure-out heathens that had 100x better moral characters and that I would trust much, much further than some preachers, deacons, and such that I've known. And I'll go ahead and say it for you and save the trouble: those aren't "real" Christians.  There are about ten of those on earth, apparently.


Over the years, it seems that all the poeple who make claims about others not being "Real Christians" are unable to define what exactly a "real Christian" is and by their own actions and admissions wouldn't fit the definition themselves.
Many act, say and do whatever they want and figure that they got the bases covered because they believe in Jesus. The "Im a sinner but I believe" hall pass might not be what they think it is.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Apr 2, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Over the years, it seems that all the poeple who make claims about others not being "Real Christians" are unable to define what exactly a "real Christian" is and by their own actions and admissions wouldn't fit the definition themselves.
> Many act, say and do whatever they want and figure that they got the bases covered because they believe in Jesus. The "Im a sinner but I believe" hall pass might not be what they think it is.


One thing that has turned me away from organized religion is the consistent thread of sexual misconduct among the clergy of about all the denominations. This guy is going around having sex with his married parishioners, teenage girls, altar boys, or picking up hookers, and he is telling me how I should live when he's doing things I wouldn't even begin to think about doing? It happens over and over and over and over. I have seen fifty examples just in my area over the years.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 2, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> One thing that has turned me away from organized religion is the consistent thread of sexual misconduct among the clergy of about all the denominations. This guy is going around having sex with his married parishioners, teenage girls, altar boys, or picking up hookers, and he is telling me how I should live when he's doing things I wouldn't even begin to think about doing? It happens over and over and over and over. I have seen fifty examples just in my area over the years.


I agree. Another is a Priest who isn't married giving marriage advice to couples who are. What does a non married and probably gay guy know about relationships and raising children?


----------



## oldfella1962 (Apr 2, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I think that’s mostly true.   But if you believe in nothing you can be convinced of anything.  Where does morality come from?  Humans?  That’s a hoot.



Yes, morality does come from humans, whether as an individual (your conscience) or as a group (your society). In the case of the bible, morality comes from the men who wrote & compiled it. 

What has God ever done (or failed to do) that differs from how humans behave? Yes he has the supernatural powers to create the universe, life both physical & spiritual, omnipresence, etc. But once the ball got rolling here on planet Earth, how has God ever behaved (regarding morality) that would differ from the morality demonstrated by humans? My point is God does everything humans do, just on a much larger scale of course. Humans expect no less out of any deity! 

I would venture to say that if we had two islands (or planets or whatever) of people - one island full of atheists and one full of Christians - over a 1,000 year period the rates of murder, rapes, crimes in general, corruption, wars, etc. would be pretty much the same. 

America has churches of every type from every religion, yet there is unfettered immorality running rampant, along with great behavior from very moral people to balance it out of course.


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## bullethead (Apr 2, 2022)

If morals came from God he blew it when 1/3 of his Angels rebelled and the first two people he created didn't get the memo.


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## Danuwoa (Apr 2, 2022)

bullethead said:


> If morals came from God he blew it when 1/3 of his Angels rebelled and the first two people he created didn't get the memo.


Freedom is a witch ain’t she?


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## Danuwoa (Apr 2, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I have seen some pure-out heathens that had 100x better moral characters and that I would trust much, much further than some preachers, deacons, and such that I've known. And I'll go ahead and say it for you and save the trouble: those aren't "real" Christians.  There are about ten of those on earth, apparently.


I’m not sure who you’re talking to but if the standard y’all hold for Christians is for them to be perfect Id love to see y’all do that yourselves.  That’d be a neat trick.


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## NCHillbilly (Apr 2, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I’m not sure who you’re talking to but if the standard y’all hold for Christians is for them to be perfect Id love to see y’all do that yourselves.  That’d be a neat trick.


I don't expect anybody to be perfect. I am far, far, far from perfect. I am also not claiming to be righteous and Godly. I do expect a preacher who is called a man of God and is telling me how I should live to not be out running around doing horrible things that I wouldn't even begin to think about doing my imperfect self. Is that a bad expectation? I don't think so. But I see it time and time again. And see people making excuses for it. There is no excuse for a preacher who sins worse than the people he preaches against as examples of sin.


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## Danuwoa (Apr 2, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I don't expect anybody to be perfect. I am far, far, far from perfect. I do expect a preacher who is a man of God and is telling me how I should live to not be out running around doing horrible things that I wouldn't even think about doing my imperfect self. Is that a bad expectation? I don't think so. But I see it time and time again.


No, I agree with you.  I said what I said because you rolled your eyes at the idea that people who claim to be Christians that are child predators aren’t real Christians. Do you think they are?  You think that’s what most Christians are about?  Y’all were right when you said way back there that this ain’t the forum for me.  I think I’ll show myself out.


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## NCHillbilly (Apr 2, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> No, I agree with you.  I said what I said because you rolled your eyes at the idea that people who claim to be Christians that are child predators aren’t real Christians. Do you think they are?  You think that’s what most Christians are about?  Y’all were right when you said way back there that this ain’t the forum for me.  I think I’ll show myself out.


I do not think at all that's what most Christians are about. I do believe more and more that it's what a growing significant percentage of Christian "clergy" are about. Because it's a continuous thing across all denominations. And the faithful folks in the congregation who aren't like that are the ones who pay the price for it. Over and over and over. I think the best church is one that is organized within the community, and isn't affiliated outside of it, except to God.


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## bullethead (Apr 2, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I’m not sure who you’re talking to but if the standard y’all hold for Christians is for them to be perfect Id love to see y’all do that yourselves.  That’d be a neat trick.


Where is the line of acceptable? Is the line in the bible or up to the individual?


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## bullethead (Apr 2, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Freedom is a witch ain’t she?


There is always an excuse as to why anything supposedly from God doesn't work as advertised. Not pointing you out, just an observation.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 2, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I do not think at all that's what most Christians are about. I do believe more and more that it's what a growing significant percentage of Christian "clergy" are about. Because it's a continuous thing across all denominations. And the faithful folks in the congregation who aren't like that are the ones who pay the price for it. Over and over and over. I think the best church is one that is organized within the community, and isn't affiliated outside of it, except to God.


While I dont disagree with you, to be fair, for every 1 "clergy" scumbag, there are probably 100 "good" clergy folk. And I know you know that but its easy to lose sight of because its only the scumbags we hear about.


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## NCHillbilly (Apr 2, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> While I dont disagree with you, to be fair, for every 1 "clergy" scumbag, there are probably 100 "good" clergy folk. And I know you know that but its easy to lose sight of because its only the scumbags we hear about.


Agreed. It just keeps happening over and over and over, though. I could relate incident after incident from my immediate area. More corrupt preachers than corrupt plumbers, I would say.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 2, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> No, I agree with you.  I said what I said because you rolled your eyes at the idea that people who claim to be Christians that are child predators aren’t real Christians. Do you think they are?  You think that’s what most Christians are about?  Y’all were right when you said way back there that this ain’t the forum for me.  I think I’ll show myself out.





> You think that’s what most Christians are about?


All the Christians I know are people. And they act like people. Both the positive and negative that goes along with that.
But there's a number of Christians who put a target on their own back by being some serious hypocrites.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 2, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Agreed. It just keeps happening over and over and over, though. I could relate incident after incident from my immediate area. More corrupt preachers than corrupt plumbers, I would say.


Thats a lot of corrupt preachers


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## NCHillbilly (Apr 2, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Thats a lot of corrupt preachers


Well, there are a lot of them. I have also known some preachers who were some of the best people I've ever known, who I believe to be 100% sincere and trying to be the best they can be and help other folks.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 2, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Well, there are a lot of them. I have also known some preachers who were some of the best people I've ever known, who I believe to be 100% sincere and trying to be the best they can be and help other folks.


Yep. I was brought up Catholic which we all know are no strangers to scandal but the Priests I knew were always square dealing with me.


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## oldfella1962 (Apr 2, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> One thing that has turned me away from organized religion is the consistent thread of sexual misconduct among the clergy of about all the denominations. This guy is going around having sex with his married parishioners, teenage girls, altar boys, or picking up hookers, and he is telling me how I should live when he's doing things I wouldn't even begin to think about doing? It happens over and over and over and over. I have seen fifty examples just in my area over the years.



Here's one loophole/excuse a lot of these powerful religious leaders use: the devil tempted me/attacked me!   Yes, because they are doing "god's work" they are a juicy target for the devil, so the devil of course wants to take out an important enemy. Thus these leaders are subjected to much, much more temptation that the average layman would endure.

Regardless of their excuses, their flock will trip over themselves to "forgive and forget" their behavior and keep that offering money flowing in. 

Not singling out Catholics, but the way the Catholic Church hierarchy just transfers priests around when they are caught in the act is sickening.   They cover things up and run a shell game with the criminal justice system/law enforcement as if their church rules & laws are above actual state & federal laws. Some small town Mormon churches (not all of course) in northern Arizona & southern Utah break multiple state & federal laws with 65 year old church big-shots marrying 15 year old girls, stealing church members' wives and taking them as their own wives, running the young single men out of town (less competition for the young women obviously) and so on.

The thing is *THE WHOLE TOWN IS IN ON IT *to include local law enforcement so getting people to cooperate with outside law enforcement and to testify if things get that far is nearly impossible. 

Then again the Vatican conducts their own investigations so they are "above the law" too. Tell me such things are no better than the 3rd World goat herder countries! And this happens right here within our very own borders, and could be stopped but the church members are complicit!


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## oldfella1962 (Apr 2, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> While I dont disagree with you, to be fair, for every 1 "clergy" scumbag, there are probably 100 "good" clergy folk. And I know you know that but its easy to lose sight of because its only the scumbags we hear about.


Well that is true, like Mark Twain said about the news "nobody wants to read about the pig that_ wasn't_ stolen!"   But I look at it his way: if one of the selling points of Christianity is to guide believers into a more "moral, God fearing" life then the percentage of scandalous, shifty, criminal preachers should be nearly ZERO, wouldn't you think?   I'm curious, what does the research say about this? Is the percentage of scumbags among Christian leadership higher or lower than that of the general population? If it's not measurably lower by a significant percentage, then what does Christianity have to do with higher moral standards/more moral behavior?
Something to think about!


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## WaltL1 (Apr 2, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Well that is true, like Mark Twain said about the news "nobody wants to read about the pig that_ wasn't_ stolen!"   But I look at it his way: if one of the selling points of Christianity is to guide believers into a more "moral, God fearing" life then the percentage of scandalous, shifty, criminal preachers should be nearly ZERO, wouldn't you think?   I'm curious, what does the research say about this? Is the percentage of scumbags among Christian leadership higher or lower than that of the general population? If it's not measurably lower by a significant percentage, then what does Christianity have to do with higher moral standards/more moral behavior?
> Something to think about!





> But I look at it his way: if one of the selling points of Christianity is to guide believers into a more "moral, God fearing" life then the percentage of scandalous, shifty, criminal preachers should be nearly ZERO, wouldn't you think?


Should be? Yes.
Realistic? No. People are people.
A used car salesman can come up with some great selling points to sell you a car that will never meet those selling points.


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## Spotlite (Apr 2, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Well that is true, like Mark Twain said about the news "nobody wants to read about the pig that_ wasn't_ stolen!"   But I look at it his way: if one of the selling points of Christianity is to guide believers into a more "moral, God fearing" life then the percentage of scandalous, shifty, criminal preachers should be nearly ZERO, wouldn't you think?   I'm curious, what does the research say about this? Is the percentage of scumbags among Christian leadership higher or lower than that of the general population? If it's not measurably lower by a significant percentage, then what does Christianity have to do with higher moral standards/more moral behavior?
> Something to think about!



It’s because people are convinced if they claim Christianity they can do things and not get noticed. Plus they think folks will trust them more and accept them. 

I want to introduce you my cousin. He’s a traveling evangelist pastor song director book writing Nashville singing star that picks up pallets for a living.


Hadn’t been to church in over 25 years but he’s a pastor. Oh, he finished his one year jail last March for the copper he stole.


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## oldfella1962 (Apr 2, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> It’s because people are convinced if they claim Christianity they can do things and not get noticed. Plus they think folks will trust them more and accept them.
> 
> I want to introduce you my cousin. He’s a traveling evangelist pastor song director book writing Nashville singing star that picks up pallets for a living.
> 
> ...



Maybe he can write a song about stealing copper!


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## Israel (Apr 4, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Well that is true, like Mark Twain said about the news "nobody wants to read about the pig that_ wasn't_ stolen!"   But I look at it his way: if one of the selling points of Christianity is to guide believers into a more "moral, God fearing" life then the percentage of scandalous, shifty, criminal preachers should be nearly ZERO, wouldn't you think?   I'm curious, what does the research say about this? Is the percentage of scumbags among Christian leadership higher or lower than that of the general population? If it's not measurably lower by a significant percentage, then what does Christianity have to do with higher moral standards/more moral behavior?
> Something to think about!





oldfella1962 said:


> Here's one loophole/excuse a lot of these powerful religious leaders use: the devil tempted me/attacked me!   Yes, because they are doing "god's work" they are a juicy target for the devil, so the devil of course wants to take out an important enemy. Thus these leaders are subjected to much, much more temptation that the average layman would endure.
> 
> Regardless of their excuses, their flock will trip over themselves to "forgive and forget" their behavior and keep that offering money flowing in.
> 
> ...



You make a good argument for how corrupt man is...even down to complicity...even if claiming ignorance.

What would an uncompromised man's path be but to be shown the door?


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## 660griz (Apr 4, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Well that is true, like Mark Twain said about the news "nobody wants to read about the pig that_ wasn't_ stolen!"   But I look at it his way: if one of the selling points of Christianity is to guide believers into a more "moral, God fearing" life then the percentage of scandalous, shifty, criminal preachers should be nearly ZERO, wouldn't you think?   I'm curious, what does the research say about this? Is the percentage of scumbags among Christian leadership higher or lower than that of the general population? If it's not measurably lower by a significant percentage, then what does Christianity have to do with higher moral standards/more moral behavior?
> Something to think about!


Some learn that it doesn't really require a change in moral behavior. Just ask for forgiveness and reset for another week of debauchery.


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## ambush80 (Apr 11, 2022)

It really must be difficult to be instructed to be humble but also be instructed to think oneself as a bearer of The Truth.  The only Christian I knew who admitted they might be wrong was my Mom, but I see it more and more these days.  That's progress.


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## Danuwoa (Apr 29, 2022)

660griz said:


> Some learn that it doesn't really require a change in moral behavior. Just ask for forgiveness and reset for another week of debauchery.


All hail the morally superior atheist.


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## Israel (Apr 29, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> It really must be difficult to be instructed to be humble but also be instructed to think oneself as a bearer of The Truth.  The only Christian I knew who admitted they might be wrong was my Mom, but I see it more and more these days.  That's progress.


It's impossible but for God.


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## Israel (Apr 30, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> It really must be difficult to be instructed to be humble but also be instructed to think oneself as a bearer of The Truth.  The only Christian I knew who admitted they might be wrong was my Mom, but I see it more and more these days.  That's progress.


I think we can deconstruct that further and go as far as we'd like with it.

When I'd written this back in 2015 Gem rightly called me on it, and although he was willing to bear my then explanation of intent and perspective with much grace, I find the reality of it even more compelling upon me in these days.




> What my faith tells me is that I am continually wrong about everything.
> I am as agnostic as the most screamingly proclaiming agnostic, as atheistic as the most screamingly loud atheist, as abysmally ignorant and mistaken about God from point A to point B to whatever may come next, as to be in the same boat as all.




Being a witness, or, if called as one is in the legal arena, is a minefield. And we might (?) admit we tend to get a bit legal with one another. Rules of evidence, dismiss-ability of what is called hearsay, chain of custody matters (hey! that document has been tampered with! Or, "its authenticity cannot be provably verified!") etc. And, depending upon which "side" calls the witness, the rigors of cross examination. These things all come to bear. Do they not?

And of course, and without much need of explanation, impeachability matters.


These are all legal concerns.

Of course the believer must find himself at a complete disadvantage here, and more than rightly so, for he is being convinced of "a" grace (solely instrumental in the origins of his calling as witness) that so far exceeds dealing upon and with one another according to legal terms that he is continually hobbled to such.

If he (believer in Christ) makes advance to "win" or show himself right for the mere sake of triumphing over another for some sake of proving sufficiency to himself he will find himself opposed by a far stronger hand than can be presented by any man in these (appearing) arguments and contentions.

Some will say, perhaps "the hand is not there" or "if you say the hand is there, you must prove it", but a witness is not called (in this case) to be himself the proof of anything but God's grace upon him which he knows neither he, nor any other man he might ever meet or touch could find in, or of himself, any _legal basis_ for seeing. Sensing. Knowing.

Interestingly Ambush you spoke recently about a neighbor with whom you have found that (apparently) no matter what you do her attitude toward you seems fixed upon hostility.

I understand. Sometimes too much about hostility and its seeming unbreakable durability and inuring to any and all outreach. And this is where (at least one particular point, anyway, but there are many) I can easily confess that the faith that shows me grace, also shows me how very wrong I am...in so frequently underestimating its sufficiency.

With man it is impossible but with God all things are possible.


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## 660griz (May 2, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> All hail the morally superior atheist.


Please stand. I will be in the area all day.


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## Danuwoa (May 2, 2022)

660griz said:


> Please stand. I will be in the area all day.


Awesome.


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