# Do heavy arrows REALLY drop a lot more?



## The Arrow Guru (Aug 20, 2015)

The answer is no. There has been a programming of bow hunters by the large bow and arrow companies. The marketing has been to sell everyone on speed. Speed, speed, speed!

I plan on doing a video for the Arrow Guru Page but I just got done setting the yardage stops on my sight. I am shooting a nearly 500 grain arrow with around 200 of that being in the point/insert combo.

The bow is set up quite a bit like I would set up a target bow. The group is a little left but shot at 50 yards. The markers show the pin gap.

I call the chase for speed "the chase for butterflies". I pursue penetration. These arrow fly like lasers, hit like a hammer and will penetrate like a bunker buster.

Feel free to ask any questions about the set up, the arrow build or anything else.


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## NCHillbilly (Aug 20, 2015)

I am a firm believer in heavy arrows vs. fast arrows.


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## BudgetBowman (Aug 20, 2015)

X2 I'm shooting bout 580 grain. Of coarse its a little different when you shoot traditional.


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## NCHillbilly (Aug 20, 2015)

Yeah, traditonal, most of my arrows are 600+. But, a bow is a bow is a bow. I don't think it really makes a lot of difference whether you shoot it out of a wooden selfbow, or a ultra-modern compound. All that matters is what happens when the stick meets the deer.


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## CJ87 (Aug 20, 2015)

Is that a 10 or 12 inch bee stinger on the front? I'm looking at getting one but don't know whether to get a 10 or 12 inch and my local archery shops don't carry any good stabilizers for me to compare. Great looking bow too!


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## northgeorgiasportsman (Aug 20, 2015)

9.81 m/s2


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## DYI hunting (Aug 20, 2015)

What is the lightest heavy arrow you recommend for hunting?  I think I'm going to break down and buy some heavy hunting arrows. I'm shooting 70 lbs, 29" arrows that are only 355 grains.


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## BlackEagle (Aug 20, 2015)

The markers are irrelevant unless we know what your pins are set at. 

Are they set at 10,15,20,25?

Or 20,30,40,50?

What speed are you shooting? 270fps or 300? So, to answer your question.....yes, arrows will drop a lot more the slower you sling them. Fill everyone in on all the specs of your bow and arrows.


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## alligood729 (Aug 20, 2015)

BlackEagle said:


> The markers are irrelevant unless we know what your pins are set at.
> 
> Are they set at 10,15,20,25?
> 
> ...



They don't drop as much as you would think....maybe Byron will post the video up again, of the fellow that did the test with heads ranging from 100-300gr.....same bow, shooting from a hooter shooter. From 100 to about 175gr head,  the drop at 35 yards was like 2 inches.....or something like that. I know I went from a 340gr arrow last year, to one that is right at 440. There was of course a touch of drop, but I still shoot the one pin CBE, set at 25 yards.....and like he said, it hits like a hammer compared to the arrow from last year.


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## bowkill7 (Aug 20, 2015)

BlackEagle said:


> The markers are irrelevant unless we know what your pins are set at.
> 
> Are they set at 10,15,20,25?
> 
> ...


Finally!!!  Finally, per my last article in GON [ Its all in your Head ], Bowhunters and shooters alike are starting to realize across the board , heavier is better, especially when increasing FOC, Better flight, better penetration and increased KE.  My personal stats..2015 Obsession Knightmare GT set at 58 lbs, @ 29 inches draw, 438 grain total weight arrow includes a 165 grain all Steel Bipolar, chronos 281 fps, has 76.6 lbs of KE.   One pin set at 25 yards dead on , from 0-35 yards 1.75 inch margin of error.  What does this mean in laymans terms? Pretty much any deer or hog 30 yards or less I can put the pin on him or her and punch em out.  And its always best to shoot and error low because of the way a whitetail reacts to the shot by dropping to run.  Plus a lower strike on an animal with a broadhead will leave blood sign much quicker than a higher strike on an animal. The average shot distance in a woods-tree stand situation is 18-20 yards.  I would like to see more archers try one pin at 25 yards and see what their individual  margin of error is from 0 -30 or 35 yards .  Try this and post your results, I bet you will be pleasantly surprised.   Just my .02  Oh yea heavier arrows are much better on your equipment and WILL make it more quiet.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 20, 2015)

DYI hunting said:


> What is the lightest heavy arrow you recommend for hunting?  I think I'm going to break down and buy some heavy hunting arrows. I'm shooting 70 lbs, 29" arrows that are only 355 grains.



Just go with a heavier broad head and call it a day.  The only problem with this is you mentioned that you thought you may be underspined on your arrows.  A heavier head will weaken your arrow more....so...just try it out and see how they shoot...then maybe go with a heavier arrow.


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## BlackEagle (Aug 20, 2015)

I was just stating facts, arrows will drop more the slower you sling them. I'm not saying the margin is huge at short distances. Because it isn't. I'd be curious to see the difference in a 50lb bow shooting a 475 grain arrow at 60 yards and then a 70lb bow shooting a 375 grain arrow, at 60 yards. Those pin gaps would be different, but how much? All I'm saying is it depends on the set up you're shooting. 

I shoot almost a 480 grain arrow at a blazing 265fps, just for the record


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## alligood729 (Aug 20, 2015)

BlackEagle said:


> I was just stating facts, arrows will drop more the slower you sling them. I'm not saying the margin is huge at short distances. Because it isn't. I'd be curious to see the difference in a 50lb bow shooting a 475 grain arrow at 60 yards and then a 70lb bow shooting a 375 grain arrow, at 60 yards. Those pin gaps would be different, but how much? All I'm saying is it depends on the set up you're shooting.
> 
> I shoot almost a 480 grain arrow at a blazing 265fps, just for the record



I'm shooting a 440 gr arrow at 285, 60lbs 27" draw...
.....


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## The Arrow Guru (Aug 20, 2015)

CJ87 said:


> Is that a 10 or 12 inch bee stinger on the front? I'm looking at getting one but don't know whether to get a 10 or 12 inch and my local archery shops don't carry any good stabilizers for me to compare. Great looking bow too!



It come in a kit that has either a 10" front and a 8" back, or a 8" front or a 6" back. I have the 10/8 and I love it.


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## BlackEagle (Aug 20, 2015)

alligood729 said:


> I'm shooting a 440 gr arrow at 285, 60lbs 27" draw...
> .....



I just need you to be accurate this year. #garhole


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## The Arrow Guru (Aug 20, 2015)

DYI hunting said:


> What is the lightest heavy arrow you recommend for hunting?  I think I'm going to break down and buy some heavy hunting arrows. I'm shooting 70 lbs, 29" arrows that are only 355 grains.



The best thing I can tell you is this. Use the heaviest set up you can use and get acceptable trajectory. 

"Acceptable trajectory" can be different for different people. If you hunt whitetails in Georgia most of the time, the fact is your average shot will almost always be within 30 yards and you can get away with a trajectory that has quite a bit of arch. If you hunt elk and muleys out west, you probably want a little more of a flat arrow.

The fact is like others have said, if you are going to increase the weight in the front of your arrow, you need a stiffer arrow.

However just as a test for yourself. You can order a field point test kit from Alaskan Bowhunters that has 6 heads in it that range from 100 grains to over 300. You can sight your bow in at 35 yards with the 100 and then trade the point out with the progressively heavier one and shoot and see for yourself the difference in drop.


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## The Arrow Guru (Aug 20, 2015)

BlackEagle said:


> The markers are irrelevant unless we know what your pins are set at.
> 
> Are they set at 10,15,20,25?
> 
> ...



I guess I assumed every one would conclude that my pin marks are 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 yards.

I have no idea what speed my arrows are flying and to be honest, I don't care at this point. The reason I don't is because I know that I do not have enough weight to have slowed it down to the point that I would have an unacceptable trajectory. However here is my set up

28" / 71# Hoyt Nitrum 34
27" Black Eagle Zombie Slayer
42 grain brass insert
165 grain broad head
5" wrap 
3" Fusion X


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## The Arrow Guru (Aug 20, 2015)

BlackEagle said:


> I was just stating facts, arrows will drop more the slower you sling them. I'm not saying the margin is huge at short distances. Because it isn't. I'd be curious to see the difference in a 50lb bow shooting a 475 grain arrow at 60 yards and then a 70lb bow shooting a 375 grain arrow, at 60 yards. Those pin gaps would be different, but how much? All I'm saying is it depends on the set up you're shooting.
> 
> I shoot almost a 480 grain arrow at a blazing 265fps, just for the record




No one is claiming that it would not shoot slower or drop more. However what I am saying is that the arrow drop simply will not be a dramatic as most think. The difference in a 50# shooting one weight arrow verses a 70# shooting another is not relevant to this conversation. 

What I am talking about is shooting the heaviest arrow out of a person individual bow that provides acceptable trajectory.

I always talk in respect of research and testing I have actually done. Most talk about what they believe or think the results will be.

What I am saying is that the difference in a 450 grain arrow and a 600 grain arrow as far as point of impact will not be a great at most people think.

There is also a lot that goes into it. Two arrows with the exact same weight, but one has a high FOC and the other has the weight more evenly distributed will be different. The arrow with the high FOC, or more weight in the front, will have a better trajectory and has a higher potential for penetration.

of the 485 grains of my arrow, about 210 grains are in the insert/point.


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## Kris87 (Aug 20, 2015)

Arrow weights and head weights can be debated til the cows come home.  Its like financial advice....there is no cookie cutter answer that works for everyone.  I have always agreed heavier is better than light.  But as arrow guru mentioned, I want to recommend acceptable trajectory for the intended purpose.  I can assure you, if I went out west after antelopes only, I wouldn't use my whitetail setup.  Same for elk, bear, etc.  You should really be focused on a weight and speed that gives good penetration and also some margin for error at your intended shooting range.  For some, that's a one pin setup at a max range of maybe 30 yds.  For others, that's a 5 pin sight out to 60 hunting over an ag field.  Determine your needs, then build your setup!

Good thread.


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## LipRip'r (Aug 20, 2015)

I agree good thread. I went from Easton Hexx w 100gr head at 367gr total, 332 fps to GT Kinetic Kaos w 50gr stainless insert & 125gr head at 508gr total, 287fps.  Quieter. Tighter groups. Deeper penetration into the block. The kaos were bout 2" low at 30yds. OB Evolution 29.5/71


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## The Arrow Guru (Aug 20, 2015)

Kris87 said:


> Arrow weights and head weights can be debated til the cows come home.  Its like financial advice....there is no cookie cutter answer that works for everyone.  I have always agreed heavier is better than light.  But as arrow guru mentioned, I want to recommend acceptable trajectory for the intended purpose.  I can assure you, if I went out west after antelopes only, I wouldn't use my whitetail setup.  Same for elk, bear, etc.  You should really be focused on a weight and speed that gives good penetration and also some margin for error at your intended shooting range.  For some, that's a one pin setup at a max range of maybe 30 yds.  For others, that's a 5 pin sight out to 60 hunting over an ag field.  Determine your needs, then build your setup!
> 
> Good thread.



Absolutely! I have tried to make sure that I am not saying that anyone has an "incorrect" set up. That is why the phrase, "Use the heaviest arrow that will give you acceptable trajectory" is so great. It allows you to change the rules for the game and situation. However, there is a trend in archery for guys to shoot less and less poundage and lighter and lighter arrows all in the name if speed. I see deer on TV running away with 3/4 of the arrow hanging out of their side too often. I shoot 71 pounds and will continue to do so until I physically can't. I see many able bodied hunters shooting 60 or even 50 pounds and then going to a sub 400 grain arrow so that they are shooting fast. Only to blame their broad head when they lose a deer!


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## mattech (Aug 20, 2015)

I don't get into all this technical data, but all I know is, when I first bought my Hoyt CRx32, I bought super light arrows for speed. Killed a few deer with them, all pass thrus. I switched to a heavy arrow (gold tip kinetics), killed a few deer with them, all pass thrus. Only difference? I have to almost dig the arrow out of the ground now. I shot a nice sized buck last year that was standing in front of a cypress tree, the broad head stuck so deep in the tree all you could see was a hole where the arrow broke. I like heavier now, because I have more confidence in penetration if I hit bone.


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## BowanaLee (Aug 20, 2015)

I'm shooting a 47 lb addiction at 235 fps with a 410 gr arrow. Its got a pretty good arc compared to my target bow.  
I don't think it would be wise to hunt with just one pin.   Sure is quiet though. I can feel those deer trembling from here.


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## edsebring (Aug 21, 2015)

Very good thread guys. I have been considering going heavier on my points this year. Presently I shoot a PSE X-Force GX, Carbon Express Blue Streak arrows 29"draw at 74# Currently My arrow is right at 400 grains. After reading some of the things that Kris posted earlier on another thread I have decided that I should change my field points and broad heads to at least 165 grain from 100 grain. I did a stupid thing 2 years ago when I changed from Carbon Express Pile drivers to the the Blue Streak arrows. Difference is the pile driver was 11.3 grains per inch to the Blue Streak at 8.6 grains. So I lost 2.7 grains per inch. That is a lot when you figure it over 29 inches. I did gain some speed, but not enough that it made that much of a difference. The bad thing is that last year I ended up buy a bunch of the broad heads that I use and have 3 new packages of 100 grain broad heads. Is there anything that I can add to them, like a collar to increase the weight? Or should I try and pull the inserts and replace with heavier inserts?


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## pasinthrough (Aug 21, 2015)

Instead of going with a heavier weight head, you can add weights to the rear of your inserts.  All you do is pull the nocks out and use a long rod with the correct size allen wrench to screw the weights into the back of the insert.  This is, of course, assuming you already have built arrows.  If you are building from scratch, you can simply add the weights to the inserts before gluing them in the shaft.

I have added not only brass inserts for durability and for added weight, but also a 20 grain weight to the rear of the insert.

42 grain brass insert plus 20 grain weight plus a 100 grain head gives me 162 grains up front.  My Zombie Slayer arrows are 8 gpi and with firenocks, blazers and a wrap, mine come in at 430 grains with 16% foc.

I did this simply because there are more broadhead options in 100 grain weight than anything else.  I like to try 2 to 3 different broadheads per year and this just works for my situation.

I've always felt 380 - 420 at 12 - 14% foc and running over 270 is great whitetail medicine.  I can get more than that at 65# and that's why I don't shoot more poundage than I do.


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## edsebring (Aug 21, 2015)

Where do I get these weights and I think the back of my insert is solid could I just use a drop of epoxy on the weight and slide it down the shaft to glue it in place?


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## Ihunt (Aug 21, 2015)

edsebring said:


> Where do I get these weights and I think the back of my insert is solid could I just use a drop of epoxy on the weight and slide it down the shaft to glue it in place?



Three Rivers Archery has about anything you want in regards to building a heavy arrow.


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## pasinthrough (Aug 21, 2015)

edsebring said:


> Where do I get these weights and I think the back of my insert is solid could I just use a drop of epoxy on the weight and slide it down the shaft to glue it in place?



Lancaster has pdp weights and the tool for installing them.  I guess you could use epoxy, but I think it would be messy.

Here are some I've found:  http://www.lancasterarchery.com/arrows/arrow-components/point-weights.html 

My Black Eagle Arrows offer brass, stainless and aluminum inserts depending on what arrow and additional insert weights made for their products.  It was pretty easy to calculate what the total weight was going to be and I built and tested one before building the rest just to make sure I had it right.  Depending on how much weight you add, you may need to go up one or two spine stiffness to make it work.


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## Ihunt (Aug 21, 2015)

My setup: Delta 6,28.5"draw, pulling 57lbs. Arrow is a Gold Tip Pro Hunter with a 125 grain Anarchy head and a 50 grain brass insert. Total arrow weight is 442 grains and my arrow speed is 273 fps. It is quiet and hits with some authority. I will never shoot "light" arrows for hunting. The advantages of a heavy arrow are many. Disadvantages......well....my arrow hits about 1.5" lower at 40 yards.


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## edsebring (Aug 21, 2015)

Thanks a lot. I will be ordering 12 of the carbon express 65 grain weights and the tool to install them. Should I use a drop of loc-tite on these?


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## pasinthrough (Aug 21, 2015)

edsebring said:


> Thanks a lot. I will be ordering 12 of the carbon express 65 grain weights and the tool to install them. Should I use a drop of loc-tite on these?



I do.


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## Bucky T (Aug 21, 2015)

Here's a good archery calculator.

http://backcountrybowhunting.com/articles/calc/


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## Bucky T (Aug 21, 2015)

My XT is shooting right at 280fps.  My arrows weigh 408grs.  30" draw, pulling 70lbs, and 68grs +/- weight on my string.

Coming out to 70-71lbs of energy.


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## edsebring (Aug 21, 2015)

Bucky T said:


> Here's a good archery calculator.
> 
> http://backcountrybowhunting.com/articles/calc/



Thanks a lot, that calculator is very helpful. I was able to adjust the arrow weight and figure out the best arrow weight for my bow with the highest KE and speed. I need to add 60 grains to my arrow for highest kinetic energy and the best speed.


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## chadeugene (Aug 21, 2015)

I'm shooting 381 grain arrows at 289 FPS this year.  I believe that this setup is more than adequate.  The arrows have almost 2x the kinetic energy required to take down a whitetail, and I'm quite certain that I won't be running into any grizzly bears around here, so I think I'll be just fine.


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## bowkill7 (Aug 21, 2015)

Kris87 said:


> Arrow weights and head weights can be debated til the cows come home.  Its like financial advice....there is no cookie cutter answer that works for everyone.  I have always agreed heavier is better than light.  But as arrow guru mentioned, I want to recommend acceptable trajectory for the intended purpose.  I can assure you, if I went out west after antelopes only, I wouldn't use my whitetail setup.  Same for elk, bear, etc.  You should really be focused on a weight and speed that gives good penetration and also some margin for error at your intended shooting range.  For some, that's a one pin setup at a max range of maybe 30 yds.  For others, that's a 5 pin sight out to 60 hunting over an ag field.  Determine your needs, then build your setup!
> 
> Good thread.


 Totally agree here, one other thing I forgot to mention with a one pin set up is you can shoot further distances if you choose by learning your personal set up and knowing how much PIN to hold over at further distances.  Its the same principle with a scoped rifle. If its dead on at 100 yards and the target is 200 yards then you would hold your crosshairs a touch high.   In most long range archery shots via big food plot or Ag. field you will have time to use a range finder and multiple pins or an adjustable pin. In a woods situation where the animal is traveling a trail its best to know the distance to that trail or other landmarks ahead of time, you wont have time for a range finder in this situation , especially if you have a buck dogging a hot doe around your set up. If and I say If you get that buck to stop, you must be ready to shoot, because the chances of stopping him a second time without spooking him is very slim.  And a buck you rattled in may come to you sounding like a horse, or after several minutes you let your guard down and look over your shoulder and there he stands.  LOL !!!!


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## bowkill7 (Aug 21, 2015)

chadeugene said:


> I'm shooting 381 grain arrows at 289 FPS this year.  I believe that this setup is more than adequate.  The arrows have almost 2x the kinetic energy required to take down a whitetail, and I'm quite certain that I won't be running into any grizzly bears around here, so I think I'll be just fine.


You wont run into any Grizzlys that's for sure, but a clavicle bone in a mature bucks anatomy is a whole new ball game.   Just saying.


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## The Arrow Guru (Aug 21, 2015)

edsebring said:


> Very good thread guys. I have been considering going heavier on my points this year. Presently I shoot a PSE X-Force GX, Carbon Express Blue Streak arrows 29"draw at 74# Currently My arrow is right at 400 grains. After reading some of the things that Kris posted earlier on another thread I have decided that I should change my field points and broad heads to at least 165 grain from 100 grain. I did a stupid thing 2 years ago when I changed from Carbon Express Pile drivers to the the Blue Streak arrows. Difference is the pile driver was 11.3 grains per inch to the Blue Streak at 8.6 grains. So I lost 2.7 grains per inch. That is a lot when you figure it over 29 inches. I did gain some speed, but not enough that it made that much of a difference. The bad thing is that last year I ended up buy a bunch of the broad heads that I use and have 3 new packages of 100 grain broad heads. Is there anything that I can add to them, like a collar to increase the weight? Or should I try and pull the inserts and replace with heavier inserts?



You have a lot of options. If you have the insert glued with hot melt and can pull them, you can go with brass inserts. PDP make a full line of weights and you can add as much as you want. I took 125 grain Swackers to Illinois and had a total of 90 grains in the insert and weights.

If what you are shooting is working at least for now, you can shoot through them and then consider different options when you do your next arrow build. I'd definitely do what Derik suggested if you got $100 in broad heads already. Add some weight to your inserts.


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## The Arrow Guru (Aug 21, 2015)

chadeugene said:


> I'm shooting 381 grain arrows at 289 FPS this year.  I believe that this setup is more than adequate.  The arrows have almost 2x the kinetic energy required to take down a whitetail, and I'm quite certain that I won't be running into any grizzly bears around here, so I think I'll be just fine.



381 would be in the very light category in my opinion. 

The one thing that I think is overused in archery is kinetic energy. That is a very misleading figure. It is at best, a number that can tell you how efficient your archery set up it. It can tell you how hard something will hit but has no bearing on an arrows potential for penetration or lethality.

A 95 MPH fast ball has right at 100 foot pounds kinetic energy however it has a very poor ability to penetrate and cleanly kill animals. So to qualify an arrow as being sufficient for killing a whitetail because of how much kinetic energy it has is not the best way to look at it.

If you take a bow and shoot a series of arrows, each weighing more than the next and do a KE calculation you will find that all of them will be pretty close to the same. The heavier arrows will go up marginally because with more mass comes an ability to absorb more energy. However very much the same. Do you think this means that all of the arrows have the same penetration and potential for lethality? Absolutely not.

A light arrow leaves the bow faster but loses it's momentum very quickly because it's lower mass. A heavier arrow will leave the bow at a slower speed but maintains that speed better because of it's having more mass. 

The other part is FOC. The more mass is in the front of the arrow will help in penetration as well as maintaining a flatter trajectory.

You might have a set up that is adequate, but when things do not go according to plan, you might also have a set up that is more likely to fail. Something to consider


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## alligood729 (Aug 21, 2015)

K.E. is also figured right out of the bow, not 30yds downrange, like the speed of a rifle bullet. I know that's not a fair comparison, because the rifle still packs a wallop at long range. But.....like a bullet, an arrow starts losing speed and KE as soon as it is shot. I went from a light 340gr arrow last year to 440gr, right at the end of last season. A little slower of course, but it will carry the pop better at 30+.....And one of Byron's points is why I went heavier. I did all the KE figures for both arrows, and even though I lost some speed, the figures for KE were .5lbs different. FOC on the setup I'm shooting now is crazy....


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## 167WhiteTAIL (Aug 23, 2015)

bowkill7 said:


> Finally!!!  Finally, per my last article in GON [ Its all in your Head ], Bowhunters and shooters alike are starting to realize across the board , heavier is better, especially when increasing FOC, Better flight, better penetration and increased KE.  My personal stats..2015 Obsession Knightmare GT set at 58 lbs, @ 29 inches draw, 438 grain total weight arrow includes a 165 grain all Steel Bipolar, chronos 281 fps, has 76.6 lbs of KE.   One pin set at 25 yards dead on , from 0-35 yards 1.75 inch margin of error.  What does this mean in laymans terms? Pretty much any deer or hog 30 yards or less I can put the pin on him or her and punch em out.  And its always best to shoot and error low because of the way a whitetail reacts to the shot by dropping to run.  Plus a lower strike on an animal with a broadhead will leave blood sign much quicker than a higher strike on an animal. The average shot distance in a woods-tree stand situation is 18-20 yards.  I would like to see more archers try one pin at 25 yards and see what their individual  margin of error is from 0 -30 or 35 yards .  Try this and post your results, I bet you will be pleasantly surprised.   Just my .02  Oh yea heavier arrows are much better on your equipment and WILL make it more quiet.



You have pegged what I do.  My arrow is 465 gr, 93 gr insert, 100 gr bh, shooting right at 300fps, I zero at 27 yards.  I use 1 pin from point blank to 40 yards (at 40, if the deer does not drop, I hit his heart, if he drops, he drops and my arrow drops with him and hits double lungs).  THIS IS THE ONLY THING I HAVE TO THINK ABOUT!!!!!  POINT, SHOOT AND CLICK OUT TO 40 YARDS.

30 yards or less, aim for the lower third, 30 to 40, aim for middle.  Using 1 pin, I do not have to think about what pin to shoot.  When I get in a tree, I find my 30 yard markers around my tree.  While I am up, I keep reminding myself where they are.

I do not like to shoot over 40, at this point the deer is bouncing up, and no one know what direction he is going to bound.  It is a guessing game.


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## 167WhiteTAIL (Aug 23, 2015)

O Yea - the main term everyone is leaving out (and yes KE is a little overused) is MOMENTUM.  The more massive an object, the greater the momentum -The momentum of an object is the product of its mass times its velocity  

To exaggerate the example, think about a bicycle riding 10 mph vs a train riding 10 mph, which will have a greater momentum??


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## 167WhiteTAIL (Aug 23, 2015)

Last - I have shot a bunch of different arrows.  

I have found the Victory VAPs V1, (very skinny shaft, 300 spine 8.9 gpi, with the fat 93 gr insert with a 100gr BH) - the penetration is off the charts!!!

I made my friend a dozen of 350 spine arrows, he was not getting complete penetration with his Carbon Express Maxima (he lost a few nice bucks because of lack of penetration), with the VAP's, he has gotten full penetration with 5 or 6 deer he shot.

If you haven't tried a VAP, I would recommend giving them a shot.


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## TireKicker (Aug 23, 2015)

That calculator is scary accurate for my setup.

I do like having 92 ft. lbs of kinetic energy

Bear Motive 6

30" draw

72#

IBO: 340 fps

429 grain arrow (including 100 grain slick trick)

Chrono graph showed 308 FPS, calculator says 310 fps


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## Bucky T (Aug 23, 2015)

Throw your specifics out tire kicker.


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## TireKicker (Aug 23, 2015)

Bucky T said:


> Throw your specifics out tire kicker.



edited


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## The Arrow Guru (Aug 24, 2015)

Kinetic Energy = meaningless bow stat of the day


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## TireKicker (Aug 24, 2015)

The Arrow Guru said:


> Kinetic Energy = meaningless bow stat of the day



Why? I thought that more energy, the more penetrating ability. That's what physics taught me. I guess I'm wrong though, I know little about bows.


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## The Arrow Guru (Aug 25, 2015)

TireKicker said:


> Why? I thought that more energy, the more penetrating ability. That's what physics taught me. I guess I'm wrong though, I know little about bows.



It has been sorted out repeatedly on this thread. Go back and read through all the post. KE only tells a piece of the story but tells you very little about the potential for penetration and lethality.


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## edsebring (Aug 25, 2015)

TireKicker said:


> Why? I thought that more energy, the more penetrating ability. That's what physics taught me. I guess I'm wrong though, I know little about bows.



You are not wrong. The more energy that you have the better the knock down ability and the better chance you have at a pass through. Having said this this, it is not the only factor that decides that. The analogy of being hit by a bike at 25 miles an hour or a train at 25 miles an hour applies. Me I will take the bike. Think about how much momentum it takes to stop that bike if it is just coasting on a flat surface. With in a couple hundred yards it is going to stop on its own. The train on the other hand is going to take a couple of miles before it looses all of its speed. So a heavier arrow leaving the same bow as a lighter arrow. The heavier arrow is going to take longer with the same kinetic energy to stop than the lighter arrow. Does this help at all?


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## TireKicker (Aug 25, 2015)

edsebring said:


> You are not wrong. The more energy that you have the better the knock down ability and the better chance you have at a pass through. Having said this this, it is not the only factor that decides that. The analogy of being hit by a bike at 25 miles an hour or a train at 25 miles an hour applies. Me I will take the bike. Think about how much momentum it takes to stop that bike if it is just coasting on a flat surface. With in a couple hundred yards it is going to stop on its own. The train on the other hand is going to take a couple of miles before it looses all of its speed. So a heavier arrow leaving the same bow as a lighter arrow. The heavier arrow is going to take longer with the same kinetic energy to stop than the lighter arrow. Does this help at all?


Sure, I get that. I just can't figure out how to get penetration without figuring in momentum and KE. I understand KE isn't very important but I was told a few posts ago it was meaningless, so I didn't understand why.

I'd like to think that my understanding of physics is pretty solid


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## Kris87 (Aug 25, 2015)

Its not meaningless.  As someone stated, its a good measure of your bow's output.  It just doesn't translate into much after the arrow is gone.  A light arrow and a heavy arrow will almost always have the same KE(or close) when you run the calculations.  But the momentum downrange will not stay the same.  That's the point Arrow Guru is trying to get across.


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## DYI hunting (Aug 25, 2015)

Kris87 said:


> Its not meaningless.  As someone stated, its a good measure of your bow's output.  It just doesn't translate into much after the arrow is gone.  A light arrow and a heavy arrow will almost always have the same KE(or close) when you run the calculations.  But the momentum downrange will not stay the same.  That's the point Arrow Guru is trying to get across.



Are there any calculators that figure KE at certain ranges?  Or are there too many variables involved?


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## TireKicker (Aug 25, 2015)

DYI hunting said:


> Are there any calculators that figure KE at certain ranges?  Or are there too many variables involved?



You can always calculate it, just find the speed at the point you'd like to calculate. 

The momentum presents a truer picture of the striking "force" of an object, while the kinetic energy reflects how long that force will be applied in said collision if it is one that is not completely elastic. Since flesh is soft, the pain you feel on your skin is going to have a lot to do with the kinetic energy. But your bones are solid, so to the extent that a stricken bone remains structurally intact from any impact, it is only the momentum that will be relevant. Softer tissue tends to get moved out of the way as an object progresses through a collision, allowing momentum to continue to be conserved even with deeper penetration.


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## edsebring (Aug 25, 2015)

I think that this thread is getting us nowhere. We have been going around in circles over momentum and kinetic energy. Both of these are important when choosing a bow and an arrow. The whole point of this thread was to point out that a heavier arrow to a certain point is going to provide better penetration than a lighter arrow will.


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## TireKicker (Aug 25, 2015)

edsebring said:


> I think that this thread is getting us nowhere. We have been going around in circles over momentum and kinetic energy. Both of these are important when choosing a bow and an arrow. The whole point of this thread was to point out that a heavier arrow to a certain point is going to provide better penetration than a lighter arrow will.



Who is beating a horse? I'm learning something. Thanks though


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## 167WhiteTAIL (Aug 25, 2015)

DYI hunting said:


> Are there any calculators that figure KE at certain ranges?  Or are there too many variables involved?



On Target 2 - http://www.pinwheelsoftware.com/

It charts it out, at different distances, based off the information you give it.

If you understand how to use this software, I guarantee it will help answer questions you do not know to ask at this time.  It is a learning curve, but as you play with it, it will help you understand how making certain changes will effect your arrow flight.

I have used it to test arrows without having to shoot them.  This is how I got turned onto the Victory VAPs.

For me, it is amazingly accurate.

I am shocked more bow shops do not use this.  I have a profile set up for each of my bows.  Bow shops could set up a profile for each of their customers, then when someone comes in to the shop, they could open your file and have your complete set up right there in front of them.


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## The Arrow Guru (Aug 25, 2015)

The original point of the thread was to say that the trajectory of a heavier arrow is not as different as that of a light arrow as most think. 
however it opened up a pretty good discussion, which is what a forum is for I thought.


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## DYI hunting (Aug 25, 2015)

The Arrow Guru said:


> The original point of the thread was to say that the trajectory of a heavier arrow is not as different as that of a light arrow as most think.
> however it opened up a pretty good discussion, which is what a forum is for I thought.



I've learned a lot and appreciate the discussion and input from the seasoned bow men.


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## TireKicker (Aug 25, 2015)

DYI hunting said:


> I've learned a lot and appreciate the discussion and input from the seasoned bow men.



No doubt. Things can sound good in the office and look good on paper, once it's put into the real world, then results may be different.


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## Kris87 (Aug 25, 2015)

Have you guys checked your KE/MO^2÷fps?


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## edsebring (Aug 26, 2015)

Kris87 said:


> Have you guys checked your KE/MO^2÷fps?



Yeah wait a minute while I get my abacus out. this should not take to long.


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## Kris87 (Aug 26, 2015)

Kris87 said:


> Have you guys checked your KE/MO^2÷fps?



Dang y'all, I forgot to put a smilie in there last night.  Sorry about that.  

Hope no one googled that formula.


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## edsebring (Aug 26, 2015)

Kris87 said:


> Dang y'all, I forgot to put a smilie in there last night.  Sorry about that.
> 
> Hope no one googled that formula.



I was more worried about trying to find my abacus. I am sure that it has not been used since the roman era. I know the wife put it away someplace.


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## hoytslanger87 (Aug 26, 2015)

I have always been a heavy arrow fan. My question is all things being equal are you going to see A difference in performance from an arrow that is a lighter gpi, but you load the FOC Vs an arrow that weights the same but has a higher gpi.

Let's say a GT velocity .300 with 50 grain insert 125 head
Vs a .340 GT kenetic with 125 grain grain head


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## edsebring (Aug 26, 2015)

hoytslanger87 said:


> I have always been a heavy arrow fan. My question is all things being equal are you going to see A difference in performance from an arrow that is a lighter gpi, but you load the FOC Vs an arrow that weights the same but has a higher gpi.
> 
> Let's say a GT velocity .300 with 50 grain insert 125 head
> Vs a .340 GT kenetic with 125 grain grain head



Kris would be able to answer this better than me, but from what I understand I would prefer the weight to be forward of center. This gives a better flight path on the arrow. If the arrows are exactly the same weight then they should both have the same momentum when they leave the bow, but momentum can be lost by an arrow that takes longer to straighten out. Hence having the weight forward is better in the long run.


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## Kris87 (Aug 26, 2015)

hoytslanger87 said:


> I have always been a heavy arrow fan. My question is all things being equal are you going to see A difference in performance from an arrow that is a lighter gpi, but you load the FOC Vs an arrow that weights the same but has a higher gpi.
> 
> Let's say a GT velocity .300 with 50 grain insert 125 head
> Vs a .340 GT kenetic with 125 grain grain head



Can you or I tell the difference?  Probably not.  The scenario you spelled out is exactly the one I have had the last two years.  Last year I shot a heavier gpi, with less FOC.  They tuned great, and I had no issues.  This year, I wanted to go down in weight just a bit, so I went to the GT Velocity with a higher FOC.  They are flying very well.  

All in all, I do think the higher FOC helps with broadhead flight.  Just helps the arrow recover faster.  This setup also bareshaft tuned easier than my recent setups, so I think there is something to be gained there.


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## The Arrow Guru (Aug 26, 2015)

Kris87 said:


> Can you or I tell the difference?  Probably not.  The scenario you spelled out is exactly the one I have had the last two years.  Last year I shot a heavier gpi, with less FOC.  They tuned great, and I had no issues.  This year, I wanted to go down in weight just a bit, so I went to the GT Velocity with a higher FOC.  They are flying very well.
> 
> All in all, I do think the higher FOC helps with broadhead flight.  Just helps the arrow recover faster.  This setup also bareshaft tuned easier than my recent setups, so I think there is something to be gained there.



Just to add a little. According to Dr.Ashby, the higher front of center has more potential for penetration and lethality. Makes sense in the fact that the oscillation of the arrow upon impact would be far less on an arrow that had a higher FOC than one that had the weight more evenly distributed. 

Most think of the flex of the arrow when accelerated by being shot, most do not think of flex upon deceleration and impact.


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## hoytslanger87 (Aug 26, 2015)

Thanks for the replies. One of the main reason I started looking into higher FOC arrows was a video Tim Gillingham made about hunting arrows and he talked about higher FOC arrows require less vane to steer the arrow, because the tip weight Corrects the arrow just as quick. So I figure run a higher FOC and a decent hunting vane And have the best of both worlds.


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