# Arrowheads and musket balls in Turtles...



## flintdiver

Anyone ever hear of something like this ? I have had a few people over the years tell me of huge snapping turtles being caught that had musket balls and arrowpoints embedded in their shells. I know those alligator snappers can live to be over 100 maybe up to 150? But have any of you guy's ever heard of such a thing ? Can those snappers live that long ?


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## GeauxLSU

Really?  I can't find anything that says they live that long (seems the most common answer is around 40 years or so in the wild).  Maybe those musket balls and arrowheads were buckshot and Muzzies?   
100 years old would 'almost' make me feel guilty about killing the duckling murderers in my back yard.


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## Trizey

I've always heard that they could live up to a 100 years or so, but I've never heard of the points or musketballs.  Seems logical I assume...


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## Jody Hawk

I have heard of it. I read a story one time about folks finding musketballs in alligator snapping turtles. Turtles were believed to be over 100 years old.


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## GeauxLSU

Now the alligator snappers are a different critter all together.  One lived in captivity 70 years and it's actually not known how long they lived but widely assumed to be 100 years or so.  
I guess a critter that mean just doesn't die easy.


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## Trizey

There was an alligator snapping turtle that was in the culvert by the road at my grandparent's farm.  This was back in the 80's when I was probably 7-8 years old.  My uncle sat on this turtles shell, "Indian style".  This turtle was probably a couple of hundred pounds.  We thought the turtle was stuck in the ditch, but the next morning it was gone.  They shell had to have been 3' in diameter.


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## Jody Hawk

Trizey said:
			
		

> My uncle sat on this turtles shell, "Indian style".  This turtle was probably a couple of hundred pounds.


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## Hooty Hoot

Saw a picture once of a shell with an arrowhead embedded in it. Who knows if it was real or not. I have always heard that an alligator snapper could live well over 100 years and that no one was really certain how long they could live. I have seen some really large Alligator snappers in Arkansas and Mississippi but have never seen one in georgia. I suppose there to be some in south Georgia. Any comments?


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## flintdiver

I am thinking these folks had to be talking about gator snappers, i don't think common snappers live that long. I guess they could have been pieces of lead and whatnot from .22 or smaller buckshot that were found. Maybe these old timers just assumed they were shot off a bridge by a soldier or something. I thought it made for some fun thinking !


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## GeauxLSU

flintdiver said:
			
		

> I am thinking these folks had to be talking about gator snappers, i don't think common snappers live that long. I guess they could have been pieces of lead and whatnot from .22 or smaller buckshot that were found. Maybe these old timers just assumed they were shot off a bridge by a soldier or something. I thought it made for some fun thinking !


And who knows, could be true!


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## Hooty Hoot

The turtles that I have caught around here were always referred to as logger heads. As GeauxLsu stated, the alligator is a different turtle.  The largest loggerhead that I have seen was probably 25 to 30 pounds whereas I have seen some alligator snappers that probably approached 100 lbs.


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## #93

*Possible but....*

I could see musket balls in a 100 year old turtle or even a 50 year old but can't see finding arrowheads these days. I don't think there was very many indians living the "old ways" in the south in the early 1900's.


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## Nicodemus

Down here we have both the snappin` turtle and the alligator snappin` turtle with the latter gettin` much bigger in size.  It has been several hundred years since stone weapons have been used in the Southeast other than me and some of my friends so I doubt that there are any turtles left totin` these momentoes around. The alligator snapper is also a protected species, along with the map turtle.


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## Bow Only

There weren't many Native Americans around 100 years ago.  The Trail of Tears lasted quite a while and removed most of them by the turn of the century.  Included was my grandmother's mother.  Her entire family was removed and forced to live on a reservation out West against their will.  A train wreck going out there killed several in her family and she stayed on the reservation until she was old enough to leave.


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## caught

http://www.waleg.com/archives/001817.html
THIS IS ISNT A SNAPPER BUT PRETTY OLD!


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## Throwback

Believe half of what you see and none of what you hear and you  will be close to the truth. 

T


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## Woody

A few years back -- had a Snapper come through my yard and someone had painted his shell black ---- had a  white number 3 painted on both sides. --- true.

Phil -- I know what you mean about ducklings.

I'm lucky if 2% survive the turtles and cats around my pond.


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## gobblingghost

my dad hooked one about four or five years ago.  This thing was a dinosaur. At least 3 or 4 foot across the back, this beast was caught in So. Ga.


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## Researcher31726

Too bad the turtles themselves can't tell their stories....
Sue


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## BIGABOW

I cant remember what show it was on but they said back when cambels soup made snappin turtle soup that occasonially they would find muskets and arrow heads imbeaded in the shells,the turtles that they referd to they said were posssibly 250+ years.
not saying its true just what I saw/ heard on the boobtoob


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## Bruz

*They're Here*

I live in Dacula and have a 4.5 acre pond in my back yard with several Alligator Snapping Turtles. The funny thing is that I don't have many Common Snapping Turtles There is one specimen that is at least 2 feet across that I've seen only twice on the surface. I found the one below in my street and returned him/her VERY CAREFULLY to the pond from which he/she came.


Straight from the Encyclopedia...so it has to be true

Their potential life span in the wild is unknown, but alligator snapping turtles are believed to be capable of living to 100 years of age. In captivity they typically live from anywhere between 20 to 70 years of age.[6]


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## Bruz

Sorry, I couldn't get the Alligator photo to load but here is a Snapping Turtle that I caught and released back to the pond in 04.....It was a whopper...I would guess 15-16 inches across the back and it looked to have been eating well.


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## Bruz

Photo 2


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## BirdRanger04

*RE: Turtles*

Well I dont know how old they get but I mistakenly ventured up to Massahowever you say it and seen a snapper shell 8.5-9 ft in size they had on a display and that is a old turtle to get that big.


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## Nicodemus

That sounds like a leatherback sea turtle to be that big.


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## GA Farm Boy

I have been told that at Lawhorn boy scout camp in Pike county there is a turtle shell on the wall with an arowhead embeaded in it.  Who knows someone could have found the shell 75 years ago.


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## seaweaver

I tried to grab a big snapper on the highway once. I had to put the truck in 4x4 to backup down the median. I got to the curb by the terrapin and waved 20+ cars off which wasn't that hard as it was big enouh to scar most.... then came an 18 wheeler and I got it, or most of it across my chest.
I hate to to see these old buggers get waxed, same w/ live oaks.

cw


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## Vlad

The Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources reports on thier educational website that Turtle harvesters have brought them shells with bullets from Sharps rifles....Civil war era ammunition.


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## GaRednex

There was a special on the alligator snapper a few years back and they were showing shells they had "collected" and 1 shell did have a musket ball imbedded in the shell. I wish I could remember what the special was.


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## deedly

I also saw a show on TV several years back about this. The show showed more than a few arrowheads and musket balls that had been recovered from turtles from the Flint river. Can't remember the name of the show. Also said a good size boxer turtle could be up to 100 years old.


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## JDBrown

I remember watching an episode of Wild America with Marty Stauffer on PBS a few years ago and he was down on one of the big rivers in south Georgia talking to an old turtle fisherman who had a shell with both a minie ball and arrowhead in it. The old man said something about not catching them anymore after he found this shell.Those things must live a long time.


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## slightly grayling

I don't know about snapping turtles, but it is believed that one of Darwin's tortoises died in 2007 at 176 years.
-SGold.....http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13115101/


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## letsgohuntin

Did a little Googling on the subject but couldn't find any solid proof. I did find the opinion of John Richards, who is known as the  "turtleman"

http://www.turtleman.com/


_Turtles with arrowheads and Civil War musket balls in their shells? I don’t believe it. I’ve heard those stories from many people.Think about it.  How is someone going to catch a turtle that big in those days? That was before hoop nets. Shoot it?  How would they have seen it? They are nocturnal animals. They don’t even move during the day. They might come up for air once or twice a day, but all you’re going to see is the tip of the snout. You’re not going to have anything to shoot at. I’ve heard of arrowheads in these things, musket balls in their shells, and I 'm sorry.  Now that’s a great story and that authenticates the fact that these animals get really old, and we know that anyway. But I just don’t buy the fact that the Indians or the Civil War soldiers or whatever are gong to run into these things._


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## dubblebubble

there was a show a few years back that showed arrow heads and musket balls.


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## shawn mills

I talked to a biologist a few years ago who was very educated regarding alligator snappers. He told me they are a year old for every pound that they weigh. He had a 100 pounder. Ive heard of bigger coming out of the yellow river in Dekalb county.. just never seen one.


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## Bowyer29

Many early explorers and even later Dutch settlers reported Native Americans actually jumping on the trtles backs to kil them in the Northeast. There aer old copies of the pics in some old Native American history type books.

Nick


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## MossyOak

*Turtles..*

_Turtles with arrowheads and Civil War musket balls in their shells? I don’t believe it. I’ve heard those stories from many people.Think about it.  How is someone going to catch a turtle that big in those days? That was before hoop nets. Shoot it?  How would they have seen it? They are nocturnal animals. They don’t even move during the day. They might come up for air once or twice a day, but all you’re going to see is the tip of the snout. You’re not going to have anything to shoot at. I’ve heard of arrowheads in these things, musket balls in their shells, and I 'm sorry.  Now that’s a great story and that authenticates the fact that these animals get really old, and we know that anyway. But I just don’t buy the fact that the Indians or the Civil War soldiers or whatever are gong to run into these things._[/QUOTE]

I have to disagree with you on this quote, I have personally seen aligator and or snapping turtles on land, just last summer during the time when we were getting alot of rain. I have a swampy area across the street from my hse and about a 3 acre pond behind my hse. I personally picked up several weighing aprox 30-50 lbs and put in the back of my pickup and carried them across the road where the swamp was. It appeared they were all going to the swamp, I ask a DNR friend of mine and he said turtles migrate to the same area to lay the eggs, so no telling how long these turtles in this area have been laying their eggs in the swampy area.. Why wouldn't they just lay the egss in the pond where they were?? That is a mystery..
So how could the indians or civil soldiers have contact with these bug turtles, just like the way I saw them..


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## Rays123

weve caught some loggerheads that would go 50+ but i aint never found one with musketballs or arrows. i did find half of a rattler one time though


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## Twenty five ought six

Don't know if you all saw this, but demonstrates to me that maybe we don't know everything we think we know:




> Bowhead whale taken this year held century-old harpoon head
> 
> BARROW: Projectile sawed from carcass linked to late-1800s hunt.
> 
> By ERIN CONROY
> The Associated Press
> 
> Published: June 13, 2007
> Last Modified: July 5, 2007 at 10:49 AM
> 
> BOSTON -- A 50-ton bowhead whale harvested off the Alaska coast near Barrow last month had a weapon fragment embedded in its neck that showed it survived a similar hunt -- more than a century ago.
> 
> 
> Embedded deep under its blubber was a 3½-inch arrow-shaped projectile that has given researchers insight into the whale's age, estimated between 115 and 130 years.
> 
> "No other finding has been this precise," said John Bockstoce, an adjunct curator of the New Bedford Whaling Museum.
> 
> Calculating a whale's age can be difficult, usually gauged by amino acids in the eye lenses. It's rare to find one that has lived more than a century, but some experts say the oldest were close to 200 years old.
> 
> The bomb lance fragment, lodged in a bone between the whale's neck and shoulder blade, was likely manufactured in New Bedford on the southeast coast of Massachusetts, a major whaling center at that time, Bockstoce said.
> 
> It was probably shot at the whale from a heavy shoulder gun in about 1890. The small metal cylinder was filled with explosives fitted with a time-delay fuse so it would explode seconds after it was shot into the whale. The bomb lance was meant to kill the whale immediately and prevent it from escaping.
> 
> The device exploded and probably injured the whale, Bockstoce said.
> 
> "It probably hurt the whale, or annoyed him, but it hit him in a non-lethal place," he said. "He couldn't have been that bothered if he lived for another 100 years."
> 
> The whale harkens back to a far different era. If 130 years old, it would have been born in 1877, the year Rutherford B. Hayes was sworn in as president, when federal reconstruction-era troops withdrew from the South and when Thomas Edison unveiled his newest invention, the phonograph.
> 
> The 49-foot male whale died when it was shot with a similar projectile last month, and the older device was found buried beneath its blubber as hunters carved it with a chain saw for harvesting.
> 
> "It's unusual to find old things like that in whales, and I knew immediately that it was quite old by its shape," said Craig George, a wildlife biologist for the North Slope Borough Department of Wildlife Management, who was called down to the site soon after the fragment was found.
> 
> The revelation led George to return to a similar piece found in a whale hunted near St. Lawrence Island in 1980, which he sent to Bockstoce to compare.
> 
> "We didn't make anything of it at the time, and no one had any idea about their life span, or speculated that a bowhead could be that old," George said.
> 
> Bockstoce said he was impressed by notches carved into the head of the arrow used in the 19th century hunt, a traditional way for Alaska Native hunters to indicate ownership of the whale.
> 
> Whaling has always been a prominent source of food for Alaska Eskimos, and is monitored by the International Whaling Commission. A hunting quota for Alaska Eskimo whalers was recently renewed, allowing 255 whales to be harvested by 10 villages over five years.
> 
> After it is analyzed, the fragment will be displayed at the Inupiat Heritage Center in Barrow


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## shooting50

flintdiver said:


> Anyone ever hear of something like this ? I have had a few people over the years tell me of huge snapping turtles being caught that had musket balls and arrowpoints embedded in their shells. I know those alligator snappers can live to be over 100 maybe up to 150? But have any of you guy's ever heard of such a thing ? Can those snappers live that long ?





Yep!!been there and done that, I found musket ball in one (Turtle)about the size of a # 3 washpot. back in the 1970's.  My dad was born in 1903 and said it was real common when he was a kid cleaning turtles to find musket balls he said the soldiers shot them trying to get them for food since food was scarce during the war. According to National Geographic they can live if not killed past 160 years of age.


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## daisy102998

I have a picture of my grandfather's  Model "A"  parked under a turtle shell, he was using for a carport top.  I think it must be sea turtle.  They used to take ox carts down to the coast to make salt and he go Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- htere.  It must have been real old.


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## redneck_billcollector

We are ate up with alligator or loggerhead snappers in the lower flint river basin.  I run lines to catch softshell turtles and have to let 3 or 4 of those ugly  and dangerous turtles  off my trot lines on every check (they are protected in Ga.) I have never caught a common snapping turtle in the river though, I think they live in waters that dont have loggerheads, such as ponds, sinks, swamps etc... I have always heard and I think it is true too, that they live over 100 years old, on up to 150 years.  If that is the case, I could see finding a musket  ball in one back in the 70s or so, but not now.  I saw that same claim in National Geographic back in the 80s in an interview with if I remember correctly Al Redman, a commercial turtle trapper out of sumter county, when he was pushing to preserve the alligator snapper.  

With that being said, I doubt very seriously any stone arrow heads were found by him in the shells, first off, I dont think the stone arrow head would have penetrated the shell, second off, it has been a heck of alot longer since the indians in this area used stone arrow heads, well over 250 years I would imagine. Heck, I have found buck shot and bullets in beaver I have trapped, aint found an arrowhead yet though.


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## Tom W.

There was a huge shell at Jack Wingates Lodge some years ago, and I recall a place just north of Pensacola , near the Monsanto plant that had a huge snapper in a tank that had a stone arrow point embedded in it. I believe that there was a write up in Sports Afield about it, if I remember right. This was in the early '70's, just after I graduated High school...


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## ChiefOsceola

I was watching an episode of Dirty Jobs the other night and he stopped in at a snake farm in Texas.  They had a water pit that had alligators and alligator snapping turtles in it.  Part of the dirty job was to drain the water and clean the pit, all while dodging gators and alligator snapping turtles.  Mike Rowe (the host) asked the owner of the park how old some of the turtles were and the guy told him he wasn't sure, but that one of the large ones had recently died (I think...maybe he didn't die...but anyhow) had a Civil War era musket ball embedded in his shell.

While watching, I also learned that the alligator snapping turtle puts forth the 2nd highest amount of force of any animal when closing its mouth.  The american alligator is first.


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## Dixiesimpleman32

I got the wild america series on dvd .The episode with the turtle guy on the flint is year 10.The guy said he thinks they can live to be 500 years old.Thats pretty darn old.


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## redneck_billcollector

Al is the turtle guy you are refering too.  I have known him for years, just because somebody thinks something doesn't make it so, I doubt very seriously one could live to be that age.  Heck, everyone likes to eat them, they are right tasty.  They can be aged just like everything else out there, I have never heard of one aged even close to that age.  Al is a good guy and a self taught naturalist of sort, but he also said they were on the verge of extinction too, and that just aint the case.  Put you a line out on the flint during October and I promise you wont be able to catch many soft shelled turtles because they get caught on every hook.  There are more in that river now than I have ever seen.


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## Miguel Cervantes

I guess until someone learns to speak turtle, we'll never know..


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## Scuttlebutt

In reference to post 43 by TOM W:  Back in the 70's the Pensacola News Journal ran a story perhaps about the turtle you refer to.  As I recall at that time, it stated there was a stone spearhead/arrowhead in his shell, he weighed some 300 plus pounds, estimated age @350 years.  Further reference:  in the book "The Heritage Of Escambia County, Florida"  Volume 1/First Edition 2004, page 75 under "Swamparium" following quote "caught a huge alligator snapping turtle at Reeder Lake in 1961"--  "estimated to be 300 years old, over 6 feet long and weighed 350 pounds when he died"  "Big Jim has a hole in his shell ,probably from an Indian spearhead and was the largest fresh water turtle in the world"  In same book page 340 under "Edward Frank Nowak" there is a photo of Big Jim being held ty the tail, with his front on ground.  Tail reaches Mr. Novak's waistline.  Reeder Lake is apparently near the Perdido River between Pensacola and Mobile.  I contacted T.T. Wentworth museum in Pensacola, hoping they may have the shell, they had no idea of him or what happened to the shell.  It would have been prudent to preserve it.  So, taking that in perspective, I should think it quite feasible for Arrowheads/Spearheads and most surely musket balls from Civil War to be and or to have been embedded in their shells.  One can also find some reference to this subject on internet, if one is diligent in looking.


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## Throwback

When I look at the moon, it looks like cheese. Conclusion--It must be made of cheese. 


T


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## Fletch_W

I don't know if I believe it either. It's a great story, and I'm sure they live over a hundred years, but where's the pictures of the miniballs in the turtle? If there are a hundred cases, then where is a picture? 

I don't buy the arrowhead/spearhead stuff either. What kind of dumb Indian would waste an arrowhead on a turtle like that when he knows good and well that it's not going to work? OK, let's say some Indians did it. What are the chances that we would find these in modern times? Very slim. So, maybe it's happened. Maybe 1 or 2 have been found. I don't believe 100 stories about arrowheads found in a turtle. Especially at Jack Wingate's, or any other entity that makes their living on tourists and visitors and oddities and such. As much stuff as they have at the Capital museum, including two-headed name-your-animal, I have to believe that an Alligator Snapping Turtle shell with an arrowhead or musket ball embedded would be on display, especially if there have been a hundred instances.


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## Fletch_W

By the way, I saw the same Dirty Jobs episode mentioned earlier.. they claim to have a dead turtle with a civil war era musket ball in it.. well... here's the TV cameras... here's the TV show, where's the shell? Where's the musket ball? That gator ranch is a tourist attraction. Of course they have dead turtles with musket balls.


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## Throwback

Fletch_W said:


> By the way, I saw the same Dirty Jobs episode mentioned earlier.. they claim to have a dead turtle with a civil war era musket ball in it.. well... here's the TV cameras... here's the TV show, where's the shell? Where's the musket ball? That gator ranch is a tourist attraction. Of course they have dead turtles with musket balls.



Surely not.....


T


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## redneck_billcollector

I have been thinking, why would anyone shoot them in the shell?  They can't pull their head all the way into the shell and if they were on land, they are easy to get right up on.  The only reason I can think of them coming on land would be to lay eggs, the only ones I have seen on land are ones that people put on land.  In the water you aren't going to see them that easily, they only stick their nose out of the water.  I have cleaned many of them I caught in Wakulla co. Fla. in my youth and that I caught out of the flint before they were protected in Ga.  A musket ball would go through the shell, they aren't that thick and they ain't hard to break at all.  I have some old shells over at my folks house that are 30 or so years old from when I used to trap them for fun and profit.  

As for musket balls, well, maybe minnie balls (however you spell it) cause some poor country crackers used muzzle loaders on into the early 20th century and as for musket balls, well, if something like that was found, it is more likely buckshot.  I have found buckshot, birdshot and bullets in beaver I have trapped and they were none the worse for it.  Heck, my grandpa had a springfield 1876 rifle he said his daddy hunted with and he used as a kid (in the 20's).  I still see alot of model 12s in use and they are up to 50 years or more old, I hunt squirrels with a model 62 that my dad got over 55 years ago used. We all use old guns at times, if we shoot something with it, it don't mean that it was shot back in the guns hayday.


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## silentknight

*turtles*

I kept one for over 3 years then returned it to the wild...a vet told me that it was over 30 years old then.


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## jigman29

My wifes uncle caught an albino catfish a few years ago at santee cooper and gave it to a zoo there and while we were touring the place so he could show us the fish the tour guide showed us a turtle that had been x-rayed and showed it had a musket ball and arrowheads in it but I don't think it was a snapper but a sea turtle of some kind.


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## GAMHUNTER35

Well i heard they hav one at the aquarium in albany


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## sc951

If you ever get a chance to go by Camp Thunder Boy Scout Canoe Base between Woodbury and Thomaston GA. They have a mounted snapping turtle with a rock arrowhead stuck in its shell. I don't know how long it may have been there but you can tell the shell is growing around the arrowhead.


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## BlackKnight755

Never thought much about how long turtles live but here is something that I read about sometime back...  Whale killed with harpoon embedded


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