# My Tournament Experience/Dead Fish Rant (Oconee)



## nickf11 (Jun 21, 2010)

I don't fish a lot of torunament's a whole lot, but I fished the R.U Benefit tournament with my dad on lake Oconee on Saturday. 

I first want to say, the Pinner's did a great job with the tournament. My dad and I had a great time even with the heat, and we ended up taking 8th place and even won a few goodies at the weigh in raffle! LOL.  Everyone in the tourney all seemed like a great bunch of guys and I truly enjoyed the experience. Congrats to the winning team with 19 lbs!

What I'm about to say is not meant to offend or criticize anyone or any particular group of people so please do not take this the wrong way. I was flat out disgusted by the number of dead fish released. After weighing in and releasing our fish, I was already able to count 9 fish belly up. Several washed up on the rip rap and the rest were out in the middle of the creek channel. I couldn't believe the way some of the fish were being handled and flat out thrown back in the lake! Meanwhile, I'm in the water with my shoes off running water through the gills making sure my fish swim off strong. This may seem a little extreme to some of you (and not always possible in the winter), but you won't see any of my fish going belly up! A crappie angler was leaving the ramp as we were weighing in and had a big cooler in his boat. I told him that all those dead fish had just been released and suggested he go pick them up and take them home to eat, and he did so. I figured it was him or the ospreys.

we all need to be concientious about how we handle our fish and do our best to keep them alive, and we need to be extra careful when the water is hot. The surface temp on Oconee was 89.3 degrees! The fish are under extra stress when the water is that temp.  My dad and I use "Rejuvinade", a livewell additive made by "BassMedics". It's commonly known by many as the stuff that turns the water blue. The stuff is great! The fish would swim into it as I poured it in the livewell. It's something every tournament fisherman should invest in!

After the wiegh-in raffle prizes, I walked back down to the dock and saw 5 more fish in the water belly up. I find this a little sick. I understand, some fish get belly hooked or whatever, and die, but to see this many dead fish after a weigh in floating there belly up in the lake made me sick. We all need to be more careful in how we handle the fish from when they are put in the livewell to when they are released. 

Again, please don't take this the wrong way.


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## ambush80 (Jun 21, 2010)

They should be eaten by the anglers or given to the poor.


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## fredw (Jun 21, 2010)

nickf11, you might get some feedback to your thread from the bass fishermen who do take care of the fish and do everything in their power to release fish alive but not all do.  I've fished both bass and striper tournaments where I've observed dead fish....even had some die on me.  I think we owe it to the resource to do everything we can to prevent die off.

In my case, that meant no more tournaments.


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## sinclair1 (Jun 21, 2010)

Reminds me of Jerry Mcguire and his mission statement It was missing the Less summer tourneys,but good none the less 100% with ya on that.


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## Dewaholic (Jun 21, 2010)

agreed nick. atleast nurse the fish alittle and if it dies or is dead then take it home or give to someone. but everyone should do what they can to keep'em alive.


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## stepup (Jun 21, 2010)

I'm with you guys when we fished tournaments we would do everything in our power to keep those fish alive and not just to weigh them but also to release them alive. I have saw to many anglers take a fish out of the bag and just pour them into the water without thinking anything about it. I would atleast get in my boat and reach over the side and try to get some water over there gills to get them going again. Also a livewell additive to me should be required. It always makes me sick when someone brings a 5 or 6lb fish into the weigh in just for it to die when released. Some people don't care about there fishery's though.


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## chad smith (Jun 21, 2010)

i agree 100% dewaholic, we keep our livewells running constantly during the dog days of summer in tournys, where do you get rejuvinade?


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## fburris (Jun 21, 2010)

chad smith said:


> i agree 100% dewaholic, we keep our livewells running constantly during the dog days of summer in tournys, where do you get rejuvinade?



Keep Alive or any of the those other brands work and can be bought at Basspro, and probably at Walmart. The main thing is to keep the livewell circulating and keep some frozen bottled water to cool the livewell water. In this heat, it is hard to keep the bass alive no matter how much care is taken sometimes. I think the tournament hours should be shortened during very hot temperatures.


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## ylhatch (Jun 21, 2010)

these are the same people that get mad when someone keeps a mess of baas to eat


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## slingshot86 (Jun 21, 2010)

*dead bass*



fburris said:


> Keep Alive or any of the those other brands work and can be bought at Basspro, and probably at Walmart. The main thing is to keep the livewell circulating and keep some frozen bottled water to cool the livewell water. In this heat, it is hard to keep the bass alive no matter how much care is taken sometimes. I think the tournament hours should be shortened during very hot temperatures.


 amen to all of the above ! we even let a fella run to the store for ice cuz he had a big sack of fish. we freeze 2 ltr bottles and have not lost a fish in a few yrs. need to have a big livewell with recirculation. put the 2 ltr in around 10 or so. another at 1pm. works great.


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## t bird (Jun 21, 2010)

I own a skeeter boat and man them live wells are top notch!!! I do put some "please release me" in mine this time of year and it does the trick. I hate to see a dead fish in the lake. especially a nice one.


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## gahunter12 (Jun 21, 2010)

Please release me or rejuvinate for me. I always keep about 6 frozen water bottles in the cooler and feel my livewells up first thing in the morning. Once they are full I switch to recirculate. Once I catch my first fish I drop 2 ice bottles in and add my please release me then 2 new bottles every 2-3 hrs. I am working on purchasing and installing a oxygen tank system that will inject pure oxygen in to the water from a tank mounted in the rear of the boat via a rubber oxy tube and stone filter. A lot of pros have installed this system which can be purchased at Hammonds. We must do all we can to save these fish


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## nickf11 (Jun 21, 2010)

A lot of great points on here. I'm glad there are so many of yall that can relate and agree with me. I'm also glad we could be civilized. LOL

Sinclair, I agree, less summer tourneys, I left that part out.

Stepup, you make a lot of great points, i think additives should be required also. And it seems like some of the guys care about nothing but the the pocket change and don't care enough about successful releasing. I saw several 4 pounders being tossed back in the lake while I'm up to my knees in the lake running the water through the gills of my own.

fburris, agreed. safelight to 3pm on dog days to me is WAY too long for fish to ride around in the livewell. 


A lot of great feedback on here. We also have a 50 gallon recirculating livewell and I'm constantly adding ice to it. I think we all agree, do what you can to keep them alive but if you can't, take them home or find someone who wants them. 

Thanks for the great points guys.


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## WhitetailFreak06 (Jun 22, 2010)

Everyone that is serious about keeping their fish alive, as you all sound like you are, should look into getting a koolwell.  It is a live well cooling system that takes no additives or requires no work throughout your day of fishing.  It keeps your live well at 70 degrees and is controlled by a thermostat and you dont even have to worry about it throughout the day.  I promise you, you will not be dissapointed in this product. I bought one last year and that is the most important and helpful product I have ever purchased for my boat. I have done everything in the books to keep fish alive and nothing compares to what this system does.


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## badkarma (Jun 22, 2010)

We had several fish die in our club tourny last year.  In our next meeting the issue was raised that we, as a club, are the face of many other bass fisherman whether we like it or not.  We always have onlookers, campers, other fisherman, etc come over and watch us weigh in fish.  Then they look in the water behind us and see dead fish floating everywhere.  That ain't good.  So we decided that (1.) we need to take better care of the fish while in the tank (2.) when we do have a fish die on us, it does not go back into the water.  Someone takes it home and eats it.  I would hate for our club to get the stigma of being the ones who cause a massive fish kill every time we are on the water.


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## stepup (Jun 22, 2010)

I was worried I was gonna get eaten alive for saying what I did but I think we have finally found a issue we can agree on.


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## sasquatch hunter (Jun 22, 2010)

*yep*

I second what whitetailfreak said.

This thread should be in the tournament section also.


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## nickf11 (Jun 22, 2010)

Sasquatch Hunter,
I just replied to your PM. 

I started the thread here because I figured I had a bigger audience and everyone who visits that one probably visits this one too, Ill go over there and post a link to this thread.


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## nickf11 (Jun 22, 2010)

One thing nobody has mentioned that I even forgot to mention is similar to what badkarma said. A bunch of dead fish floating belly up in the water not only looks bad on a club, but also puts us at a high risk. What if someone from PETA or HSUS were to walk down there and see a bunch of dead fish floating around? They'd be taking pictures and be saying, "So this is your Sportfishing?" It puts us at high risk, another reason we need to be more careful. 

Sometimes, even with the all of the precautions taken, fish may still die, and if that's the case please don't throw them back in. Take them home for a meal or find someone else who will.


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## brother hilljack (Jun 22, 2010)

I was fishing on the Chattahoochee a week or so ago. A Bass club was weighing in. I hung around to see how they handled themselves (because I run catfish tournaments and could always use some pointers).

Anyway, I notice that a lot of guys are bringing in Dead fish (I don't allow dead fish at my events). As the weigh in goes on the dead fish start to pollute the backwater where the ramp is located. Now we all know how this ends. Dead fish, still water, 90 degrees and that marina would be unbearable in a few days. 

So I begin to scoop some of the fish up. I figure I would move some out of the marina and maybe use some for bait (they are already dead). One of the bass fishermen actually got made and threatened me because I was scooping them up???? Whats the problem. He (and his buddies) are the ones that killed the fish, not me

Its downright disgusting! I don't know why ANY tournament would allow dead fish. This allows anglers to neglect their catch. 

All this time, I thought Bass fishermen were all about Catch/Release and Conservation???


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## goodfornothing (Jun 22, 2010)

I don't fish tournaments for that reason. I usually catch & release.. of course after a picture is taken if it's worthy enough


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## nickf11 (Jun 22, 2010)

brother hilljack said:


> I was fishing on the Chattahoochee a week or so ago. A Bass club was weighing in. I hung around to see how they handled themselves (because I run catfish tournaments and could always use some pointers).
> 
> Anyway, I notice that a lot of guys are bringing in Dead fish (I don't allow dead fish at my events). As the weigh in goes on the dead fish start to pollute the backwater where the ramp is located. Now we all know how this ends. Dead fish, still water, 90 degrees and that marina would be unbearable in a few days.
> 
> ...



I agree. It is disgusting. But what do you mean you don't allow dead fish? What happens if a fish is caught and gets gut hooked or something and dies? Are they supposed to chunk them back in? Or do you just mean you don't count them? I'm confused. lol.


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## brother hilljack (Jun 22, 2010)

Most of our anglers use Circle hooks........almost eliminates gut hooked fish. If you don't go to pulling on the ones that do get gut hooked and simply cut the line and preferably the shank of the hook, the fish will continue to live just fine.

Our anglers know the rules. If it looks like the fish is not going to make it to weigh in alive, then go ahead and turn it back. We have only had 1 fish this year that did not swim off immediately. This fish WAS nursed back to good health and swam away on its own power. 

***Disclaimer: Catfish are much stronger/durable than Bass


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## Wormy87 (Jun 22, 2010)

Is there not a dead fish penalty? Almost all of the tournaments I fish either have a weight reduction for a dead fish or even disqualification.


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## afishaday (Jun 22, 2010)

Living on West Point makes it easy for me to observe tournament's weigh-in (large and small) at different ramps around the lake... the number of released DEAD fish is astonishing. I have asked several times (mostly at club tournaments) why they released the DEAD fish... answer "it was judged alive at weigh-in and has to go back in the lake". This is always about winning... especially where money is concerned... and it is hurting our fishery and the reputation of fisherman. We are (in my opinion) going to have to find some way to TRUST each other and go to a system that puts live fish right back in the water (digital scale, length/girth, picture and partner [might mean a return to draw-tournaments would be required] certification??). I am not throwing rocks here... I quit tournaments years ago when I saw a picture of myself after I won a tournament on Euphala (ten fish limits back then) with a string of gorgeous fish all spread out on the grass and me standing there like some conquering hero... made me ill and I quit that day. We are much better now... but there is a lot of room for improvement. I applaud this thread and hope it leads to serious discussion and valid ideas put forth for consideration.


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## nickf11 (Jun 22, 2010)

afishaday said:


> Living on West Point makes it easy for me to observe tournament's weigh-in (large and small) at different ramps around the lake... the number of released DEAD fish is astonishing. I have asked several times (mostly at club tournaments) why they released the DEAD fish... answer "it was judged alive at weigh-in and has to go back in the lake". This is always about winning... especially where money is concerned... and it is hurting our fishery and the reputation of fisherman. We are (in my opinion) going to have to find some way to TRUST each other and go to a system that puts live fish right back in the water (digital scale, length/girth, picture and partner [might mean a return to draw-tournaments would be required] certification??). I am not throwing rocks here... I quit tournaments years ago when I saw a picture of myself after I won a tournament on Euphala (ten fish limits back then) with a string of gorgeous fish all spread out on the grass and me standing there like some conquering hero... made me ill and I quit that day. We are much better now... but there is a lot of room for improvement. I applaud this thread and hope it leads to serious discussion and valid ideas put forth for consideration.



 excellent!!!!

About your TRUST System.....
I have caught many muskies up north and I have caught a few in Cave Run Lake in Kentucky. I was at Cave Run Lake one year when the PMTT (Professional Muskie Tournament Trial) was there. Because muskies are often 40+ inches long, there means of scoring fish are calling or radioing a judge boat and he drives over and observes and takes down the measurements, and the fish are immediately put back in the lake. I wonder if we could somehow adopt this practice in bass tourneys, altough it would be difficult because numbers of fish caught in bass tourneys are much higher than muskies...it probably couldnt happen.

My dad is also a member of a muskie club and he goes up north a couple times a year and they run their club based on the TRUST system like you were talking about. The only thing brought to their "Weigh in" is a digital camera and a story. 

Great idea.


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## russ010 (Jun 22, 2010)

We have dead fish penalties - but we also have a Live Fish Released point for every fish (5 max) brought to the weigh in. We like to encourage the treatment of fish. 

Granted, with this heat - you are going to get dead fish, it's just a fact of life. I hooked one the other day in the jaw, and by the time I checked on him 10min later, he was belly up in my livewell. And I keep blocks of ice, Please Release Me, and the Oxygenator running the whole time (never cut it off). Water temp in my livewell stays around 70-72*. 

During weigh in, I ask if there are any dead fish when they put them in the basket... if there are dead fish, I put them in my livewell and take them home. Not only are they good to eat, but they are some dang good fertilizer for mater plants. 

We don't fish days during the months of June, July or August. Not only for the fish - but for ourselves and the torment the sun puts on us while out on the water. We fish night tourneys, and the fish are freaking out by the time we let them go. I'm sure a lot of it is due to that additives (tranquilizers or powdered crack we induce to them), but I think a lot of it has to do with how well we prepare and keep the water while they are in our wells.

Either way, good post - and if you want to keep having tourneys, I'd suggest picking up dead fish after they are released... even if you have to get back in the boat to do it.


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## sasquatch hunter (Jun 22, 2010)

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jul/12/mueller-big-tournaments-big-problem/

here's a nice article out of the washington times from last summer.


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## UXO (Jun 22, 2010)

Great thread, and I have to agree that everything should be done to insure the live and healthy release of these fish.  



russ010 said:


> Granted, with this heat - you are going to get dead fish, it's just a fact of life. I hooked one the other day in the jaw, and by the time I checked on him 10min later, he was belly up in my livewell. And I keep blocks of ice, Please Release Me, and the Oxygenator running the whole time (never cut it off). Water temp in my livewell stays around 70-72*.



I want to say I read somewhere that additives like PRM and Rejuvenade would create chlorine when used with an Oxygenator and therefore kill the fish.  Is Please Release Me normally used with an Oxygenator?


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## NoOne (Jun 22, 2010)

I think they should ban tournaments during the summer months, to many fish killed or at least drop the limit to a 2 fish limit with no dead fish allowed at weigh in. That would give the fish a better chance and make the tournament guys take care of their catch.


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## bigbass07 (Jun 22, 2010)

another key point to keeping them alive is learn the airbladder trick and if you catch one out of deep water bust it right then he will be like new. also instead of running 100mph from a to b ease up to bout 25-30 and take the waves with ease. this will keep the fish from getting beat up. 

i fish numerous t-ments in the hottest part of the year i have never had a dead fish in my well (ranger) but have fished with other that have had them to die. even if you are just fun fishing and do the release thing the fish may still die .


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## TKLB (Jun 22, 2010)

I  am not passing judgement on any of you guys who fish tournaments, but this is one of the reasons I never will.  Keeping fish in a livewell all day in the summer heat, then expecting them to swim off after weigh in seems just a little unrealistic to me.  Even if they survive, it can't be good for them.  And so many fishermen riding around the lake with so many big fish in their livewells just can't be good.

I also don't want to be in a hurry to fish, and I don't need to compete to enjoy fishing.  To me it is everything it needs to be without having to beat anybody else.  I think I would actually enjoy fishing a tournament less than I enjoy just going out and fishing for the afternoon.

Again, this is just my personal take on it, I am not attacking anybody who does things differently than I do.  I just don't get it, I guess.

And yes, I know that there are some who do everything they can to go easy on the fish.  There are some that are responsible and respectful, but they seem to be the minority.  Every time I run into somebody who thinks they have more right to the water than I do, just because they are fishing a tournament, I cringe.


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## sinclair1 (Jun 22, 2010)

TKLB said:


> I  am not passing judgement on any of you guys who fish tournaments, but this is one of the reasons I never will.  Keeping fish in a livewell all day in the summer heat, then expecting them to swim off after weigh in seems just a little unrealistic to me.  Even if they survive, it can't be good for them.  And so many fishermen riding around the lake with so many big fish in their livewells just can't be good.
> 
> I also don't want to be in a hurry to fish, and I don't need to compete to enjoy fishing.  To me it is everything it needs to be without having to beat anybody else.  I think I would actually enjoy fishing a tournament less than I enjoy just going out and fishing for the afternoon.
> 
> ...


 I enjoy fishing more now that I dont fish tourneys anymore. Its like having a second job


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## goodfornothing (Jun 22, 2010)

The last tournament I was involved in was at Lake Wateree in Camden, SC.. It had 10-12 boats in it, and at the end of the day when it was time to weigh in this guy comes up with a cooler with the limit of bass (5) on ICE! Notice that the tournament started at safe light and it was now 3:30.. The fish were discolored and stiff as a board. Well, after weigh in... I knew I wasn't the winner.. I stuck around to see what happens the guy with the stiff fish.. He wins the Big Fish Prize!

This here was dumb, and I voiced my opinion. Some other anglers agreed with me.

After that day; I stopped fishing tournaments. Like TKLB said "I don't need to compete to enjoy fishing". 

But I do enjoy hooking a nice size bass in the same cove as a tournament fisherman and holding it up so he can see, the reaching over and releasing the fish back... It's priceless!!


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## nickf11 (Jun 23, 2010)

Looks like we finally found an issue that all of us can agree on. Some great posts on here!


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## DIGGERATL (Jun 25, 2010)

I fish with the poor mans trail, this year we have caught  and released  975 fish for a total weight of 1911 Lbs. I have only seen 5 dead fish. You director should inspect the live wells and tell anglers to make sure they are using care on all caught fish 

http://www.poormanstrail.com


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## mtr3333 (Jun 25, 2010)

The people who just don't care... never will. Whether it's the $ or the "bragging rights," some will never see their impact 2 minutes from now.
 Our local tournaments impose penalties as a means to promote fish care. 1/2lb per fish is the usual deduction. Some will allow only 2 dead. More than 2 = DQ!


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## russ010 (Jun 25, 2010)

UXO said:


> I want to say I read somewhere that additives like PRM and Rejuvenade would create chlorine when used with an Oxygenator and therefore kill the fish.  Is Please Release Me normally used with an Oxygenator?



I think I just realized what you read... This is what I think you are talking about - Oxygenator... and this is what I have in my livewell - Rule Oxygenator

It's not supposed to create chlorine, it's supposed to kill it or clean the water up so that there is no more chlorine in the water.

Personally, I don't like to use any of the additives unless it's absolutely necessary. I've found that if you keep the water cold, the bass come out stronger. 

I like Please Release Me more than Rejuvenade... from everything I've read on that, it's like crack for fish. Get's them high, then they crash hours later. I haven't seen any harmful effects after our tourneys when I've gone back out on the water for a few hours, but who knows....

When I get a big fish, one of my biggest helpers is the weights you can attach to their bottom fin and keep them upright and then I keep them right where the most oxygen is coming into the livewell... these are the weights I'm talking about - http://www.tacklewarehouse.com/Flip_Clip_Stabilizing_Weights_3pk/descpage-FHCPSWTS.html in conjunction with http://www.tacklewarehouse.com/Bends_Mender_Deflator_Needle/descpage-BMDNP.html


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## David Pinner (Jun 25, 2010)

There were only a couple of dead fish weighed in, but it was crazy after a couple of minutes, the fish started floating up here and there.  Since I started using Please Release Me, I have not lost many fish and the fish that I release after the tournament seem to be a lot more active and healthier.


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## spurandrack (Jun 25, 2010)

There are many issues with catch and release. You have only scratched the surface. In the spring when many fish are caught off the bed and released miles from where they were caught is the same as killing them. Your only killing thousands at a time. Bass tourny's should be revaluated.


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## UXO (Jun 25, 2010)

russ010 said:


> I think I just realized what you read... This is what I think you are talking about - Oxygenator... and this is what I have in my livewell - Rule Oxygenator



You're 100% correct, I was talking about the product in the first link, sorry about that.  It even says in the description not to use any additives containing salt, so that's probably related to what I was remembering.  Either way, I'm going to try to find where I read that, just for the sake of curiosity.  

I'd never seen those clip on weights before, but it seems like a good idea.  After you deflate the air bladder, how necessary are the clips?  

There's a lot of good info in this thread!


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## sasquatch hunter (Jun 25, 2010)

*weights*

i believe the weights keep you from having to deflate the bladders.

I have noticed my koolwell helping with that also, no need to puncture them.


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## russ010 (Jun 25, 2010)

UXO said:


> I'd never seen those clip on weights before, but it seems like a good idea.  After you deflate the air bladder, how necessary are the clips?



they really aren't necessary... but if I have a fish 3+ lbs, they don't move, they sit still


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## nickf11 (Jun 25, 2010)

spurandrack said:


> There are many issues with catch and release. You have only scratched the surface. In the spring when many fish are caught off the bed and released miles from where they were caught is the same as killing them. Your only killing thousands at a time. Bass tourny's should be revaluated.





That's a great point. Spring tourneys are just as bad if not worse than summer. A big tournament in April pulling 100+ fat females of their beds then releasing them miles from where they are caught is just as bad, if not worse. There's a lot you can say about tournamnets, but most of us on here are just as guilty as the other guy...


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## ylhatch (Jun 25, 2010)

All this time, I thought Bass fishermen were all about Catch/Release and Conservation???[/QUOTE]

well you thought wrong.most all of them only care about who takes home that check at the end of the day.its easy to come on here and give advice,but to follow your own advice is another tlhing.before you jump down my throat,i fish in a bass club myself and fish several open touneys a year.i see it all the time


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## brett30030 (Jun 25, 2010)

Not to butt into a bass fishing thread, but the two of the three striper fishing clubs on lanier use a catch, measure, photograph and release method. I know that it is not the same as bass fishing, but it works pretty well. 

You can see it in action here, look for the Lanier Fun Fest Virtual Tournament.

http://www.myoutdoortv.com/fishing/nuts-and-bolts-of-fishing-and-boating


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## nickf11 (Jun 26, 2010)

brett30030 said:


> Not to butt into a bass fishing thread, but the two of the three striper fishing clubs on lanier use a catch, measure, photograph and release method. I know that it is not the same as bass fishing, but it works pretty well.
> 
> You can see it in action here, look for the Lanier Fun Fest Virtual Tournament.
> 
> http://www.myoutdoortv.com/fishing/nuts-and-bolts-of-fishing-and-boating



Yup...and they do that up North with muskie tournaments too. (Professional Muskie Tournament Trial) It's the best method. Only problem is the numbers of fish caught in bass tournaments are much higher than in muskie and striper tournaments so this practice may be difficult to use for bass tourneys.


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## ohhey72 (Jun 26, 2010)

X2 ON THE KOOLWELL!! TAKE A LOOK AT THE PRODUCT IT IS TRIED AND PROVEN!!...i'm not a salesman just a happy customer.
http://www.koolwell.com/


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## SELFBOW (Aug 16, 2010)

sinclair1 said:


> I enjoy fishing more now that I dont fish tourneys anymore. Its like having a second job



agreed


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## Fishlipps Revisited (Aug 16, 2010)

nickf11 said:


> Yup...and they do that up North with muskie tournaments too. (Professional Muskie Tournament Trial) It's the best method. Only problem is the numbers of fish caught in bass tournaments are much higher than in muskie and striper tournaments so this practice may be difficult to use for bass tourneys.



it's a nice idea, but so often, those tournaments are decided by a few hundreths of an oz.....there was one at Weiss this weekend....the difference between 1st and 3rd was  about 2 tenths of an ounce...

spurandrack hit the nail on the head, too....as did ylhatch...i think a lot of people could care less if the fish die.....as long as they get a check.....


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## sinclair1 (Aug 17, 2010)

Fishlipps Revisited said:


> it's a nice idea, but so often, those tournaments are decided by a few hundreths of an oz.....there was one at Weiss this weekend....the difference between 1st and 3rd was  about 2 tenths of an ounce...
> 
> spurandrack hit the nail on the head, too....as did ylhatch...i think a lot of people could care less if the fish die.....as long as they get a check.....


It would be nice to see someone produce a gold standard on how to weigh fish for a tourney. I see dumping in a basket as well as weighing in a dry bag. which is better?
 I see tourney directors measuring on a golden rule thats been in the sun all day, I told one guy that I like salt n pepper on my grilled fish. he proceeded to double measure all my dinks after that comment.

Fish are released back to the anglers to put back in the lake in small T's, this is were you see who cares about the fish, as alot of them just sling the bag as fish go flying.

Most of the tourneys I have attended had very good tourney directors, but they all feel the way they do it is best. There is no real standard of whats best, just opinions.


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## nickf11 (Aug 17, 2010)

I guess we are digging this thread back up again. LOL. 

And yup, that's how they did it in this tournament and I saw a good number of fish get thrown and dumped back.


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## sinclair1 (Aug 17, 2010)

nickf11 said:


> I guess we are digging this thread back up again. LOL.
> 
> And yup, that's how they did it in this tournament and I saw a good number of fish get thrown and dumped back.


Its a good topic for debate, besides once deer season starts it will be a ghost town in here


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## nickf11 (Aug 17, 2010)

Indeed, but I think most of us here can agree on this topic.


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## T LEE (Aug 17, 2010)

I often wondered about the fish that were cooled(in the livewell) to the low 70's and then returned into 80+ water temps.


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## sasquatch hunter (Aug 17, 2010)

*well*

I look at like this.  My Kool fish have the strength to swim off back to deep kool water.  and i watch them make a b-line for it.

the fish that have been in surface temp water all day get beat to death on the seawall.

JMHO


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## sinclair1 (Aug 18, 2010)

sasquatch hunter said:


> I look at like this.  My Kool fish have the strength to swim off back to deep kool water.  and i watch them make a b-line for it.
> 
> the fish that have been in surface temp water all day get beat to death on the seawall.
> 
> JMHO


Ok I will go out on a limb here, there will be alot of folks to have a different opinion. 

First let me say I have 1000 gallons worth of aquariums, with 35 discus around .25 lbs (fresh water fish) and 1 salt tank in another area. I have been taking care of fish for many years, receiving fish from all over the world Fed Ex. I see what happens with damaged slime coats and temp differences a month down the road not just at weigh in. 

I wont get into if there has ever been a bass in the house

I go on record saying the kool well is terrible during the heat of the summer Fresh clean water that is the same temp is the key. 

Ok blast away


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## sasquatch hunter (Aug 18, 2010)

*hmm*

ok, so when a catch a fish out of 10' to 20' of water or more,  in the heat of the summer.......your surface pumped livewell water is the same temp as the water that fish just came from?  good point


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## sinclair1 (Aug 18, 2010)

sasquatch hunter said:


> ok, so when a catch a fish out of 10' to 20' of water or more,  in the heat of the summer.......your surface pumped livewell water is the same temp as the water that fish just came from?  good point


I agree with the kool well when the lake is 65 degrees and the outside temp is 85 as it keeps them in water closer to their enviroment. I am of the opinion its the worst thing to keep them at 70 when the water is 90.

Of course this is just my opinion and its ok for someone not to agree, I welcome them to change my mind...


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## gahunter12 (Aug 18, 2010)

sinclair1 said:


> I agree with the kool well when the lake is 65 degrees and the outside temp is 85 as it keeps them in water closer to their enviroment. I am of the opinion its the worst thing to keep them at 70 when the water is 90.
> 
> Of course this is just my opinion and its ok for someone not to agree, I welcome them to change my mind...



I understand where you are coming from, but the water temp in 30' of water is much much cooler than it is on the surface. If the surface temp is 90* then at 30' it can be as much as 20* cooler. I normally fill my livewell up early when I make my first stop and start cooling it then. When I catch fish and drop them in my cooled livewell they never miss a beat and just as active as when I catch them. I have also noticed that when I release them they quickly swim straight down to the cooler water. I see so many fish that hang around the top when released. Those are the fish you see the next day belly up dead.


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## sinclair1 (Aug 18, 2010)

gahunter12 said:


> I understand where you are coming from, but the water temp in 30' of water is much much cooler than it is on the surface. If the surface temp is 90* then at 30' it can be as much as 20* cooler. I normally fill my livewell up early when I make my first stop and start cooling it then. When I catch fish and drop them in my cooled livewell they never miss a beat and just as active as when I catch them. I have also noticed that when I release them they quickly swim straight down to the cooler water. I see so many fish that hang around the top when released. Those are the fish you see the next day belly up dead.


Some lakes have pretty consistant temps at deeper levels, but on the lakes that vary by 20 degrees, I will go so far as to say, just pulling them to the top in short order in the heat of the summer can be disasterious to the fish. then you add a 70 degree live well, a dry weighin, and a release back to hot water.

I think deep cool water, to a hot surface, to a hot livewell,back to a hot lake is better, but I dont know for sure.

I am still fishing, so dont think I dont think people should fish, I am just putting my thoughts out there.


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## jferrell3054 (Aug 18, 2010)

*Rant*

I might be off track with this subject but is it possible the fish are dying for other reasons. Like sun screen in the water, dirty live wells, live wells that have been cleaned with a strong detergent and not rinsed properly. I have been fishing out of my own boat for about 2 summers now and have yet to lose a fish. I dont use chemicals or ice. I just when it is really hot as now, keep the airator running constantly. I have used chemicals like rejuvinade for injured fish like deep hooks but have never used ice or anything because of heat. Is it the heat or the lack of oxygen in the heated water that is doing the damage or is it something that you didn't think of. Sunscreen is a major killer of fish. I don't know why but have seen the effects of it. I hear of people using strong detergents to get the stains out of live wells. I am sure if it is not rinsed good there is still some left in there. I am not putting myself on a pedestal I am just saying maybe???


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## sinclair1 (Aug 18, 2010)

jferrell3054 said:


> I might be off track with this subject but is it possible the fish are dying for other reasons. Like sun screen in the water, dirty live wells, live wells that have been cleaned with a strong detergent and not rinsed properly. I have been fishing out of my own boat for about 2 summers now and have yet to lose a fish. I dont use chemicals or ice. I just when it is really hot as now, keep the airator running constantly. I have used chemicals like rejuvinade for injured fish like deep hooks but have never used ice or anything because of heat. Is it the heat or the lack of oxygen in the heated water that is doing the damage or is it something that you didn't think of. Sunscreen is a major killer of fish. I don't know why but have seen the effects of it. I hear of people using strong detergents to get the stains out of live wells. I am sure if it is not rinsed good there is still some left in there. I am not putting myself on a pedestal I am just saying maybe???


The lack of DO is the reason I posted a few post up about merely catching them in this heat is starting a delayed mortality that we wont know if it survived or not.

I personally think you are doing the right thing with the clean circulated water, as I feel the shock of ice and dirty water are the killers.
Thanks for mentioning the sun screen as I have not thought about that. I spray it on and try to keep it off my hands but I will look into that.


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## nickf11 (Aug 18, 2010)

gahunter12 said:


> I understand where you are coming from, but the water temp in 30' of water is much much cooler than it is on the surface. If the surface temp is 90* then at 30' it can be as much as 20* cooler. I normally fill my livewell up early when I make my first stop and start cooling it then. When I catch fish and drop them in my cooled livewell they never miss a beat and just as active as when I catch them. I have also noticed that when I release them they quickly swim straight down to the cooler water. I see so many fish that hang around the top when released. Those are the fish you see the next day belly up dead.



The next day? More like the next 10 minutes...or the next hour...

kinda off topic here but do yall think putting the fish in a dirty, dry, plastic basket while they flop around, and squashing a glass top down on top of them has to do with increasing mortality rate?  
In this particular tourney, my fish were about jumping out of the livewell when I took them to weigh in, then after being weighed and then put in a dry bag and ran down to the bank to be released, they were not the same. I watched them all swim off, and like I said before, I was in the water with them so there was no tossing, but they definately didn't appear to be as healthy as they were before being weighed in.


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## The Original Rooster (Aug 18, 2010)

Waste is just a shame and that's all I can say.


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## jferrell3054 (Aug 19, 2010)

*What*



nickf11 said:


> The next day? More like the next 10 minutes...or the next hour...
> 
> kinda off topic here but do yall think putting the fish in a dirty, dry, plastic basket while they flop around, and squashing a glass top down on top of them has to do with increasing mortality rate?
> In this particular tourney, my fish were about jumping out of the livewell when I took them to weigh in, then after being weighed and then put in a dry bag and ran down to the bank to be released, they were not the same. I watched them all swim off, and like I said before, I was in the water with them so there was no tossing, but they definately didn't appear to be as healthy as they were before being weighed in.



Nickf11 I am not sure where you currently stand in this thread any more. 1 thread you want more care for the fish the next you are against the care. The glass top you are refering to is to protect the fish. It is so they do not jump and flop around in or out of the basket. It also helps to get the weight faster so they are back in the water quicker. If you knew that the fish had to be put in a dry bag. Then why did you not pull the fish out of the bag instead of dumping them out? Then you could place them back into the bag of water and carry them to the waters edge. I  disagree with the koolwell system. I have personal expirience with putting fish from water in the high 80's to low 90's into cool water in the 70's. In a tournament in July of this year at Jackson Lake we did just that 100% of the fish that were put in the tank went into shock. We had to place them back into the lake instead of the holding tank because of the water temp. It was filled that morning and was still in the 70's. If people would keep the temperature close together I believe it would not be as much shock.  Also to see a fish swim down is not new. All fish I release swim down into the water. To say they are swimming to cool water is not really accurate. What of the fish that were caught shallow? Maybe those are the ones that are swimming near the top. Not all bass go deep in the summer. If the hot water is so bad then how do the shallow fish survive. I believe a bass can handle the cool to hot better than the hot to cool. I think sinclair posted about this earlier. 
I do totaly 100% AGREE that we all need to to better in the conservation of the species, but just as in all aspects of wildlife we are learning as we go. As you get to a certain point it slows and the learning process battles the one who refuse to listen, or change.


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## sinclair1 (Aug 19, 2010)

jferrell3054 said:


> Nickf11 I am not sure where you currently stand in this thread any more. 1 thread you want more care for the fish the next you are against the care. The glass top you are refering to is to protect the fish. It is so they do not jump and flop around in or out of the basket. It also helps to get the weight faster so they are back in the water quicker. If you knew that the fish had to be put in a dry bag. Then why did you not pull the fish out of the bag instead of dumping them out? Then you could place them back into the bag of water and carry them to the waters edge. I  disagree with the koolwell system. I have personal expirience with putting fish from water in the high 80's to low 90's into cool water in the 70's. In a tournament in July of this year at Jackson Lake we did just that 100% of the fish that were put in the tank went into shock. We had to place them back into the lake instead of the holding tank because of the water temp. It was filled that morning and was still in the 70's. If people would keep the temperature close together I believe it would not be as much shock.  Also to see a fish swim down is not new. All fish I release swim down into the water. To say they are swimming to cool water is not really accurate. What of the fish that were caught shallow? Maybe those are the ones that are swimming near the top. Not all bass go deep in the summer. If the hot water is so bad then how do the shallow fish survive. I believe a bass can handle the cool to hot better than the hot to cool. I think sinclair posted about this earlier.
> I do totaly 100% AGREE that we all need to to better in the conservation of the species, but just as in all aspects of wildlife we are learning as we go. As you get to a certain point it slows and the learning process battles the one who refuse to listen, or change.


I was not a big fan of the plastic sitting on top.....you just changed my mind about that, It does speed up the time to weigh them and keep them in the basket, I was only seeing more contact with the slime coat.


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## pbmang (Aug 19, 2010)

sinclair1 said:


> I agree with the kool well when the lake is 65 degrees and the outside temp is 85 as it keeps them in water closer to their enviroment. I am of the opinion its the worst thing to keep them at 70 when the water is 90.
> 
> Of course this is just my opinion and its ok for someone not to agree, I welcome them to change my mind...



I personally think that icing hot water is the biggest killer of fish in the summer time and so many people promote it.  If people would stop cooling the water, I bet you would see at least 50% higher survival rate of tournament fish in the summer.



gahunter12 said:


> I understand where you are coming from, but the water temp in 30' of water is much much cooler than it is on the surface. If the surface temp is 90* then at 30' it can be as much as 20* cooler. I normally fill my livewell up early when I make my first stop and start cooling it then. When I catch fish and drop them in my cooled livewell they never miss a beat and just as active as when I catch them. I have also noticed that when I release them they quickly swim straight down to the cooler water. I see so many fish that hang around the top when released. Those are the fish you see the next day belly up dead.



Not always.  The DNR just did a study on Allatoona and found that the water temp at 27 feet was within a few degrees of the water temps at the surface.  Here is the specific quote:



> At the dam location, water temp at the surface was 88.5*F and was 86.4*F at 27 ft. The thermocline started around 30ft. down. At 50 ft. the water temp. was 77*F, but the DO was nearly 0.



And also:



> Like most years, DO was unsatisfactory for long term fish inhabitance at depths below 27 ft. This means the fish in Allatoona are generally restricted to depths above 27ft where there is suitable DO levels.





jferrell3054 said:


> I might be off track with this subject but is it possible the fish are dying for other reasons. Like sun screen in the water, dirty live wells, live wells that have been cleaned with a strong detergent and not rinsed properly. I have been fishing out of my own boat for about 2 summers now and have yet to lose a fish. I dont use chemicals or ice. I just when it is really hot as now, keep the airator running constantly. I have used chemicals like rejuvinade for injured fish like deep hooks but have never used ice or anything because of heat. Is it the heat or the lack of oxygen in the heated water that is doing the damage or is it something that you didn't think of. Sunscreen is a major killer of fish. I don't know why but have seen the effects of it. I hear of people using strong detergents to get the stains out of live wells. I am sure if it is not rinsed good there is still some left in there. I am not putting myself on a pedestal I am just saying maybe???



You are right in that it is not the temperature, but lack of o2.  Hotter water holds less o2, so you need to have freshly oxygenated water always flowing into the livewell.  I have huge livewells on my Skeeter, but some other makes (like Rangers) hold less water and therefore less oxygen.  Instead of running systems to cool water, I think guys need to look into oxygen systems.  



nickf11 said:


> The next day? More like the next 10 minutes...or the next hour...
> 
> kinda off topic here but do yall think putting the fish in a dirty, dry, plastic basket while they flop around, and squashing a glass top down on top of them has to do with increasing mortality rate?
> In this particular tourney, my fish were about jumping out of the livewell when I took them to weigh in, then after being weighed and then put in a dry bag and ran down to the bank to be released, they were not the same. I watched them all swim off, and like I said before, I was in the water with them so there was no tossing, but they definately didn't appear to be as healthy as they were before being weighed in.



A lot would also depend on how long they were in the bag.  5 fish in a few gallons of water will deplete the oxygen VERY quickly.  It could be they were having issues before you put them into the basket.



jferrell3054 said:


> I  disagree with the koolwell system. I have personal expirience with putting fish from water in the high 80's to low 90's into cool water in the 70's. In a tournament in July of this year at Jackson Lake we did just that 100% of the fish that were put in the tank went into shock.



I agree 100%.  The koolwell is about the worst idea in the name of keeping fish alive that I have seen.

We had this discussion on another forum a few weeks ago, and this is a portion of what that same biologist had to say in regards to icing a livewell:



> In general, fish handle abrupt temperature changes somewhat better when they are going from warm to cool water (within reason). However, going abruptly from cool water (livewell) to warm/hot water (lake) can be devastating. This may be a problem when releasing bass from a cooled livewell back into hot lake water. You may try to slowly begin to warm (stop adding ice, add a little lake water) your livewell water as the time approaches to release the fish back to the lake. A few degree difference in water temp change going from live well to lake, is obviously better handled by the fish than a large temperature change (ex. 5-10+ F). Be careful about your oxygen level though - the warmer the water, the less oxygen it can hold and vice versa.


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## sinclair1 (Aug 19, 2010)

pbmang said:


> I personally think that icing hot water is the biggest killer of fish in the summer time and so many people promote it.  If people would stop cooling the water, I bet you would see at least 50% higher survival rate of tournament fish in the summer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lots of good info, were do you get the DNR info? I agree with all but the part about my Ranger livewell


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## pbmang (Aug 19, 2010)

sinclair1 said:


> Lots of good info, were do you get the DNR info? I agree with all but the part about my Ranger livewell



DSM site.  The DO and temp numbers were posted yesterday and the rest of the info was from probably a week or two back.

I'm not sure about all Rangers, I was talking about the new 500 series boats.  They have a single divided livwell, but my old 361V had two seperate wells I believe (it's been so long since I've been in that boat.

Stratigh from Rangers site:  Livewell Capacity 26 gallons.  Keep in mind, this is a divided livwell, so with the divider in, that is basically 13 gallons per side.  I know this year it always seemed like there wasn't much water in the Rangers I was in, and I guess this is why.

In my Skeeter, I have sepearte livewells, and they are 34 gallons each.

I think this is why I don't have a problem with dead fish in the summer vs. other guys.  My livewells are MASSIVE, I keep fresh water pumping in all the time, and I never use ice.  I think with the smaller livewells, you have less oxygen available for fish, and the pumps cannot pump fresh, oxygenated water in fast enough once the oxygen has been depleated to a certain level.  I have no facts to really back that up other than I have not lost a fish in my boat that wasn't due to an obvious hook injury, while others loose fish on an almost weekly basis.

Something else, running a pump does not necessarly oxygenate the water.  A recirculate pump is adding minimual oxygen into the livewell.  IMO you need to either pump fresh water from the lake or have some type of oxygen system in place.  Recirculating unoxygenated water is not doing much more than making bubbles.


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## jferrell3054 (Aug 19, 2010)

pbmang said:


> Something else, running a pump does not necessarily oxygenate the water.  A recirculate pump is adding minimal oxygen into the livewell.  IMO you need to either pump fresh water from the lake or have some type of oxygen system in place.  Recirculating unoxygenated water is not doing much more than making bubbles.



But are the bubbles not oxygen?  I have always heard that any stirring of the water where you create splashes for lack of better term is adding oxygen. But I will agree with the oxygen system if they can . It just make sense.
I do believe in refill at least 1 time during the day just for the flushing of the waste. I also feel that water that is out of the sun and circulating will cool a little from the surface temp. I have never used a thermometer or anything just my hand . Real scientific 
I also own a skeeter and I do believe that the bigger livewell make a difference. I am just glad to see other people that use there head instead of listening to adds and calling it gospel.


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## mtr3333 (Aug 19, 2010)

*Clean O2*

Sinclair1 and Pbmang are correct on fish care. In a nutshell, stress is the fish killer. The fight, getting sloshed in the tank, trying to escape(banging themselves up), and water quality all combine for a cumulative stress level.

  Throw in rapid extreme temp. changes and add more stress. Unless a system has an infallible thermostat set to the temp. the fish came from, a released(and weighed)fish will have to endure a minimum of 4 rapid temp. changes.

 O2 and uncontaminated H2O will far better care for your fish than introducing chemicals into the fish or chilling them. Fish don't share our desire for A/C. 

 I HAVE NEVER LOST A TOURNAMENT FISH DUE TO TEMP.! I have caught and kept fish in excellent condition that came from shallow 94-96 degree water. The fish will be fine if you pump out old and replenish with fresh and aerate often. It will not mean that an overstressed fish will not die.

 Why Pump out? As Sinclair1 knows from his aquarium experience, there exists a balance or bacterial cycle. No, not a dirt bike. Ever see a fish flush?The bacteria population will explode in the fertile conditions of a confined live-well. Throw in some regurgitated shad with summer conditions(even 10 degrees cooler) and nitrate/nitrite levels will become toxic to fish as the bacteria continue to populate the old water. Start with a clean well and cycle in some fresh often. I try to do this away from marinas and busy ramps for better H2O quality.

 My pump out changes to aerate with a valve, change the water then aerate.


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## pbmang (Aug 19, 2010)

jferrell3054 said:


> But are the bubbles not oxygen?  I have always heard that any stirring of the water where you create splashes for lack of better term is adding oxygen. But I will agree with the oxygen system if they can . It just make sense.
> I do believe in refill at least 1 time during the day just for the flushing of the waste. I also feel that water that is out of the sun and circulating will cool a little from the surface temp. I have never used a thermometer or anything just my hand . Real scientific
> I also own a skeeter and I do believe that the bigger livewell make a difference. I am just glad to see other people that use there head instead of listening to adds and calling it gospel.



Air is only made up of about 20% oxygen.  Also, when you put a big bubble in the water, what happens?  It will float to the surface and escape out of the water.  The only oxygen a fish can breath is what is what is actually disolved into the water.  I am no chemist by any means, but I do know that the bigger the bubble, the less oxygen is acutally being disolved into the water.  In order to disolve, the oxygen must be in contact with the water, and with a big bubble, a large part of the air is actually inside the bubble.  That is why when you look at an aquarium, the air stones take the air being pumped in and create thousands of tiny bubbles.  That is allowing more of the air to be in contact with the water, and allowing more to be disolved.  Like I said, I am no chemist by any means, but I am pretty sure that is correct.

This is a great thread IMO, because hopefully it will help out a few fish.



mtr3333 said:


> Sinclair1 and Pbmang are correct on fish care. In a nutshell, stress is the fish killer. The fight, getting sloshed in the tank, trying to escape(banging themselves up), and water quality all combine for a cumulative stress level.
> 
> Throw in rapid extreme temp. changes and add more stress. Unless a system has an infallible thermostat set to the temp. the fish came from, a released(and weighed)fish will have to endure a minimum of 4 rapid temp. changes.
> 
> ...


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## gahunter12 (Aug 19, 2010)

pbmang said:


> I personally think that icing hot water is the biggest killer of fish in the summer time and so many people promote it.  If people would stop cooling the water, I bet you would see at least 50% higher survival rate of tournament fish in the summer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with the Skeeter Livewells. My livewells are huge also and I have only lost one fish since I got my  bug. That was due to hooking the fish in the gills. He was dead when I put him in the livewell. I agree with the temps can be nearly the same and thats why I said the temp differance can be as much as 20*. I know when we catch spots on lanier from deep water the fish feel like they just come from my frige at home. I also agree that you have to put the oxygen back in the water hince thats why I have the oxygenator system in my boat also.


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## sasquatch hunter (Aug 19, 2010)

*scientists*

half of biologists graduated in the bottom 50% of their class.


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## jferrell3054 (Aug 19, 2010)

*Thanks*

pbmang After reading your reply you are correct. I guess that is why the air bubble from the oxygenators are micro. I also read the post above yours and will refill more often. I knew of the waste just thought that once would be good. This is a good post. Even though I thought I was doing right by not losing any fish. I found that I could be doing better for the fish. 
Thanks for the posts. You are never to old to learn.


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## jferrell3054 (Aug 19, 2010)

sasquatch hunter said:


> half of biologists graduated in the bottom 50% of their class.



And the other 50% in the top of the class.


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## sasquatch hunter (Aug 19, 2010)

*recommendation*

koolwell recommends cooling the livewell water 10 degrees below surface temp, no more.

that's the trouble people get into with ice, they cool their water too much and add chlorine.  because they have no temp probe, and no idea of what the temp of their livewell is.


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## nickf11 (Aug 19, 2010)

jferrell3054 said:


> Nickf11 I am not sure where you currently stand in this thread any more. 1 thread you want more care for the fish the next you are against the care. The glass top you are refering to is to protect the fish. It is so they do not jump and flop around in or out of the basket. It also helps to get the weight faster so they are back in the water quicker. If you knew that the fish had to be put in a dry bag. Then why did you not pull the fish out of the bag instead of dumping them out? Then you could place them back into the bag of water and carry them to the waters edge. .



I still stand exactly where I stood when I started this thread so no need for uncertainty there. I'm not a politician, so I have no problem admitting when I screwed up, so I'll admit pouring the water out was a stupid thing to do. As far as the bucket/glass top goes, I just think there's got to be a better way to get a weight than putting them in a bucket floping around then squashing them with a glass top, but maybe not. Like sinclair said, wouldn't this cause some damage to the slime coat? 

I think the rest of your post was in reference to other posts.


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## nickf11 (Aug 19, 2010)

pbmang said:


> A lot would also depend on how long they were in the bag.  5 fish in a few gallons of water will deplete the oxygen VERY quickly.  It could be they were having issues before you put them into the basket.:



They were in the bag for 1 minute at most, and that was after being in a  livewell (not a koolwell) that we had recirculating all day and we had also put rejuvinade in it. They appeared to be healthy all day right up to being wieghed in.  Like I said, I watched them all swim off, but they didn't seem to be the same after they were put in the basket.


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## pbmang (Aug 19, 2010)

sasquatch hunter said:


> koolwell recommends cooling the livewell water 10 degrees below surface temp, no more.
> 
> that's the trouble people get into with ice, they cool their water too much and add chlorine.  because they have no temp probe, and no idea of what the temp of their livewell is.



Personally I think you would be doing the fish a favor by not cooling the water, regardless of how deep you caught them.  That way they are somewhat aclimated to the surface temperature when they are released.  According to the biologist on another board, changes of more than 5 degrees in water temperature can be devistating to the fish, and regardless of your livewell temperatures, when you release them they will be in the hot water on the surface until they get their bearings again and swim off.

If you knew the exact depth the fish are at, and the exact temperature at that depth, you could try and keep the livewell a few degress warmer, and then let it slowly warm throughout the day to the temperature of the surface.  The only problem is that would be impossible because you don't know when you will be adding/removing fish from the livewell.



nickf11 said:


> I still stand exactly where I stood when I started this thread so no need for uncertainty there. I'm not a politician, so I have no problem admitting when I screwed up, so I'll admit pouring the water out was a stupid thing to do. As far as the bucket/glass top goes, I just think there's got to be a better way to get a weight than putting them in a bucket floping around then squashing them with a glass top, but maybe not









The only problem is setting up a good weigh system like that takes some $$$.


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## nickf11 (Aug 19, 2010)

pbmang said:


> The only problem is setting up a good weigh system like that takes some $$$.



True, this type of system is the best, but definately unrealistic for small clubs and pot tourneys


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## pbmang (Aug 19, 2010)

nickf11 said:


> They were in the bag for 1 minute at most, and that was after being in a  livewell (not a koolwell) that we had recirculating all day and we had also put rejuvinade in it. They appeared to be healthy all day right up to being wieghed in.  Like I said, I watched them all swim off, but they didn't seem to be the same after they were put in the basket.



Here is my take, and I could be 100% off in your case but...

I think Rejuvinate is also a bad idea.  Every time I've seen it put in a livewell, the fish get more energetic.  IMO that is counter intuitive to what you want a fish to be, espically in hot water.  An energetic fish is going to consume more oxygen and also cause more damage to itself by thrashing in the livewell.  If you had an oxygen rich environment, then that wouldn't be a problem, but a livewell is far from one.  On top of that, the recirculate pump was only supplying minimal oxygen into the livewell while recirculating all the waste the fish put back into the water.  Once you took the fish out of the Rejuvinate, their bodies were no longer being stimulated by a chemical, and the effects of the low oxygen were more visable.  

I use a thing called Glory Bags for my fish.  They are basically a bad that you put the fish in, and it restricts their movement.  It keeps them from thrashing in the well, and also keeps them from smacking into each other as much.  It seems to work much like blinders on a horse do.  The fish stay nice and calm, and expend very little energy in the livewell, thus needing less oxygen.  There is an argument against them in people saying it will damage the slime coat, but I feel like as long as the bags are wet before the fish go in them, it will not be an issue.

Either way, that would be why I think you noticed your fish having a tough time.  Like I said, I could be 100% wrong, but if I had to guess, that would be my guess.  I have been dumping fish into a plastic basket every Monday for the last 18 weeks, and when I toss the fish back, they swim off just fine.  Granted there are a lot of variables, but I think the care of the fish while in the boat is the major factor but no way to know for sure.


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## nickf11 (Aug 19, 2010)

pbmang said:


> Here is my take, and I could be 100% off in your case but...
> 
> I think Rejuvinate is also a bad idea.  Every time I've seen it put in a livewell, the fish get more energetic.  IMO that is counter intuitive to what you want a fish to be, espically in hot water.  An energetic fish is going to consume more oxygen and also cause more damage to itself by thrashing in the livewell.  If you had an oxygen rich environment, then that wouldn't be a problem, but a livewell is far from one.  On top of that, the recirculate pump was only supplying minimal oxygen into the livewell while recirculating all the waste the fish put back into the water.  Once you took the fish out of the Rejuvinate, their bodies were no longer being stimulated by a chemical, and the effects of the low oxygen were more visable.
> 
> ...



Forgot to mention our livewell is a 50 gallon livewell if that changes anything. I don't know that they were necesarily having a tough time, they swam off just fine, but they were less energetic after being wieghed, which may only be, like you said, due to the fact that they were taken out of the "powdered crack". 

Thanks for your opinion and for the info. I really appreciate it. Glory bags may be a future investment of mine.


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## pbmang (Aug 19, 2010)

50 gallons is awesome, and would probably mean the fish had plenty of oxygen.  That is a very large livewell by bass boat standards.

And like I said, that would only be my opinion, so take it for what it's worth.  But looking at the situation, I would think the Rejuvinate had something to do with it.  I'm sure the shock of the whole weigh in experience had a lot to do with it too.


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## jferrell3054 (Aug 19, 2010)

nickf11 said:


> so I'll admit pouring the water out was a stupid thing to do. As far as the bucket/glass top goes, I just think there's got to be a better way to get a weight than putting them in a bucket floping around then squashing them with a glass top, but maybe not. Like sinclair said, wouldn't this cause some damage to the slime coat?
> 
> I think the rest of your post was in reference to other posts.



Nick11f
No it was not stupid, it was just a mistake that if you are like me after reading your post, will think about the next time you go to weigh in.

The glass top is actually plexiglass and is really not that heavy(unless you drop it on bare toe) yes it makes a nice gash. 

Yes I should have made a space between the 2 points. 

But all in all I think everyone on here is after the same goal fish preservation. I commend everyone for voicing their opinions. There can be alot learned from these type of posts.


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## sinclair1 (Aug 19, 2010)

pbmang said:


> Here is my take, and I could be 100% off in your case but...
> 
> I think Rejuvinate is also a bad idea.  Every time I've seen it put in a livewell, the fish get more energetic.  IMO that is counter intuitive to what you want a fish to be, espically in hot water.  An energetic fish is going to consume more oxygen and also cause more damage to itself by thrashing in the livewell.  If you had an oxygen rich environment, then that wouldn't be a problem, but a livewell is far from one.  On top of that, the recirculate pump was only supplying minimal oxygen into the livewell while recirculating all the waste the fish put back into the water.  Once you took the fish out of the Rejuvinate, their bodies were no longer being stimulated by a chemical, and the effects of the low oxygen were more visable.
> 
> ...


I read somewhere that you were using glory bags, I dont think I could stand not being able to see the fish moving in the livewell and it would drive me nuts until I checked. I would wear the zipper out in one night


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## pbmang (Aug 19, 2010)

jferrell3054 said:


> But all in all I think everyone on here is after the same goal fish preservation. I commend everyone for voicing their opinions. There can be alot learned from these type of posts.



I think the best part is everyone sharing opinions and thoughts without arguing.  It really is a great discussion IMO.  



sinclair1 said:


> I read somewhere that you were using glory bags, I dont think I could stand not being able to see the fish moving in the livewell and it would drive me nuts until I checked. I would wear the zipper out in one night



Yeah, for the first month I think I would pull the fish out every few hours, just to make sure they were alive.  They seriously just sit in the livewell while they are in the bags, but as soon as you take them out, the fish go NUTS.  That makes me think the bags had them nice and relaxed, and as soon as you take them out, the fish realize they arn't in a happy place anymore.


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## nickf11 (Aug 19, 2010)

pbmang said:


> 50 gallons is awesome, and would probably mean the fish had plenty of oxygen.  That is a very large livewell by bass boat standards.
> 
> And like I said, that would only be my opinion, so take it for what it's worth.  But looking at the situation, I would think the Rejuvinate had something to do with it.  I'm sure the shock of the whole weigh in experience had a lot to do with it too.



It's not a normal bass boat that we fish out of. It's a 21 ft. Lund, or as Sinclair1 calls it, a yankee boat. But yeah, huge livewell, lots of oxygen, so I think it had to be the crack powder.  



jferrell3054 said:


> Nick11f
> No it was not stupid, it was just a mistake that if you are like me after reading your post, will think about the next time you go to weigh in.
> 
> The glass top is actually plexiglass and is really not that heavy(unless you drop it on bare toe) yes it makes a nice gash.
> ...



Yes I will most definately remember that next time. 

Sorry you took a chunk out of your toe with that thing, but I bet you laugh about it now.

And I agree, finally we found a subject we can all agree on and calmly voice opinions. And I think we all have gotten smarter about fish preservation just from this thread!



sinclair1 said:


> I read somewhere that you were using glory bags, I dont think I could stand not being able to see the fish moving in the livewell and it would drive me nuts until I checked. I would wear the zipper out in one night



Funny you say that because the next thing I was going to ask pbmang was are the bags clear, bc I would want to be able to see the fish.


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## tonyf (Aug 20, 2010)

I have followed this thread throughout and it has been great. Lots of knowledge and ideas. I would like to get your opinions on The Oxygenator. I have a Skeeter and the livewells are huge but think this would still be a benefit.


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## Bust-A-Hawg (Aug 20, 2010)

It's really nice and refreshing to read a thread where everyone is in agreement and not bickering back and forth.  Kudos for the start nickf11.


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## pbmang (Aug 20, 2010)

tonyf said:


> I have followed this thread throughout and it has been great. Lots of knowledge and ideas. I would like to get your opinions on The Oxygenator. I have a Skeeter and the livewells are huge but think this would still be a benefit.



Off the top of my head, I'm not familiar with it.  I've been looking at a few things, but I can't remember the names of them off the top of my head.  I've got a buddy who recently purchased an oxygen tank setup for his boat (similar to what striper guys use) and I'm curious to see how it works for him.

The only thing with the o2 bottle is it has to be mounted in a WELL ventilated area and away from any sparks.  If you get an o2 leak and mix that with a spark, you are going to have a BAD day.  

I know Cabellas has some type of system for around $100 or $200.  The only bad thing is since I have 2 wells, I would need 2 systems if I wanted to have it for myself and my co-angler.


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## treadwell (Aug 20, 2010)

I don't bass fish but I have taken plenty of bass home, all "live" released from tournaments. Not fully understanding the rules (an outsiders perspective), I am shocked at the number of fish that I have seen go belly up when released back into the lake. No judgement here, just stating a fact.


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## tonyf (Aug 20, 2010)

pbmang... here is a link to the Oxygenator I was referring to. It runs off the battery only. You and I have the same problem where we both will need one for each livewell.

http://www.keepfishalive.com/product-flush.html


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## Rusty Shakleford (Aug 20, 2010)

I wish I had y'alls problems.....I can't even put fish in my livewells!


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## killabeez321 (Aug 20, 2010)

The idea of keeping frozen 2 litter bottles of water is one of the
 best ideas I saw....someone said something about an 'air bladder' trick for bass caught in deep water. can anyone elaborate on that?


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## mtr3333 (Aug 20, 2010)

killabeez321 said:


> The idea of keeping frozen 2 litter bottles of water is one of the
> best ideas I saw....someone said something about an 'air bladder' trick for bass caught in deep water. can anyone elaborate on that?



  Those bottles will bang into your fish, possibly giving them a headache. They will slosh around and bounce off the sides of your well like a pin-ball. They may even break an aerator in rough water.

 If you don't bring a deep fish up too fast, you won't need the trick.


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## nickf11 (Aug 20, 2010)

Bust-A-Hawg said:


> It's really nice and refreshing to read a thread where everyone is in agreement and not bickering back and forth.  Kudos for the start nickf11.



Thanks man. 

I really had no idea this would become of this thread when I started it back in June, but it is nice to finally have something we all agree on. 

Plus, I think we can all agree that we have learned a lot.


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## nickf11 (Aug 20, 2010)

killabeez321 said:


> The idea of keeping frozen 2 litter bottles of water is one of the
> best ideas I saw....someone said something about an 'air bladder' trick for bass caught in deep water. can anyone elaborate on that?



I have seen the pros do the air bladder trick a couple times, I wouldn't suggest doing it if you're not comfortable with it. If you do it worng, you could actually do some damage.  Make sure you watch the procedure carefully before trying it, but as it has already been said, if you're careful, don't bring them up to fast, and don't horse them, it shouldn't be necessary.


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## Fishlipps Revisited (Aug 20, 2010)

it's obvious that a lot of people are interested in trying to take care of their catch...for whatever reason...whether it be keeping them alive to avoid a penalty, or just to try to ensure that they live to grow and fight another day.....the reason itself doesn't really matter....the end result is the same...and THAT is a good thing....

it's also exposing a lot of people to a lot of good ideas....

as for the "Glory Bags"...i don't know squat about them, but they sound like a GREAT idea....it doesn't sound to me like they would harm the fishs' slime coat if the bag is already wet.....kudos to pbmang for bringing them to everyone's attention.....it's pretty rare for me to ever put a fish in the livewell, but i intend to look into them.....just  in case....

and, the same kudos to nickf11....Great thead!


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## Leap'n'Lineman (Aug 20, 2010)

nickf11 said:


> but as it has already been said, if you're careful, don't bring them up to fast, and don't horse them, it shouldn't be necessary.



First off let me say that this has been a great discussion and I am posting this in what I hope will be a positive manner.  However I would like to point out that the same biologist that pbmang has been refering to also stated on a third forum that at this time he would suggest going to heavier tackle and not playing the fish as long because of the added stress to the fish.  In other words he was saying that now it is better to "Horse " the fish.  I believe this is due to the depth the fish are holding at in Lake Allatoona is not so deep as to over inflate the air bladder during a rapid ascent.  With that being said let me also say that this data is in reference to Lake Allatoona and on that lake the fish are suspending in the range of 24' - 27' due to the lack of dissolved oxygen below 27'.  This is backed up by the following measurements that he posted on the third forum:


Here is Allatoona's water profile August 2010

Depth Temp (F) D.O. (mg/L) 
(ft.) 
0.2 88.5 6.42
3 88.7 6.4
6 88.7 6.24
9 88.9 6.31
12 88.9 6.23
15 88.9 6.37
18 88.9 6.36
21 88.9 6.31
24 88.9 6.35
-------------------------------- thermocline
27 86.4 0.14 <- start of unsatifactory DO levels
30 85.1 0.04
33 83.1 0.02
36 81.7 0.02
39 80.6 0.02
42 79.5 0.02
45 78.3 0.01
48 77.5 0.01
51 76.6 0.01
54 75.9 0.01
57 75.4 0.01
60 74.5 0.01
63 73.8 0.01
66 73.0 0.01
69 72.5 0.01
72 72.0 0.01
75 71.2 0.01
78 70.7 0.01
81 70.2 0.02
84 69.8 0.01
87 69.4 0.01
90 69.1 0.01
93 68.5 0.01
96 68.2 0.01
99 67.6 0.01
100 67.5 0.01


However lakes can vary as to the depth of intolerable dissolved oxygen based on numerous factors as demonstrated by the 2 graphs below.  So perhaps on Lanier you would not want to horse the fish in as the level of tolerable dissolved oxygen goes much deeper than Allatoona.


Here is Lanier Water profile June 2007

Depth/Temp/DO (ppm)
surface / 86.5 / 7.1                                                              
3.3 / 86.5 / 7.2
6.6 / 86.4 / 7.3
9.8 / 86.4 / 7.1
13.1 / 86.4 / 7.3
16.4 / 86.0 / 7.3
19.7 / 83.5 / 7.9
23.0 / 81.0 / 7.9
26.2 / 77.9 / 7.3
29.5 / 73.0 / 6.9
32.8 / 68.2 / 7.4 Thermocline
36.1 / 63.5 / 7.2
39.4 / 60.4 / 7.4
42.7 / 58.5 / 6.9
45.9 / 56.7 / 6.4
49.2 / 55.4 / 6.4
52.5 / 54.5 / 6.2
55.8 / 53.4 / 5.9
59.1 / 52.5 / 5.8
62.3 / 51.8 / 5.3
65.6 / 51.4 / 5.2
68.9 / 50.7 / 5.0
72.2 / 50.2 / 4.8
75.5 / 49.6 / 4.5
78.7 / 49.3 / 4.3
82.0 / 49.1 / 4.3
85.3 / 48.6 / 4.2
88.6 / 48.4 / 4.1
91.9 / 48.2 / 3.9
95.1 / 48.0 / 3.8
98.4 / 47.8 / 3.5
101.7 / 47.7 / 3.4
105.0 / 47.5 / 3.1
108.3 / 47.5 / 2.7
111.6 / 47.3 / 2.6
114.8 / 47.3 / 2.5
118.1 / 47.3 / 2.4
121.4 / 47.3 / 2.3
124.7 / 47.3 / 2.1
128.0 / 47.1 / 1.9
131.2 / 47.1 / 1.8


Here is Allatoona's water profile June 2007		

Depth/Temp/DO (ppm)
0 / 86.9 / 6.68
3 / 86.9 / 7.07
6 / 86.9 / 7.18
9 / 86.9 / 7.07
12 / 86.9 / 7.16
15 / 86.9 / 7.18
18 / 83.66 / 6.02
21 / 82.04 / 3.22 Thermocline
24 / 81.14 / 0.87
27 / 80.06 / 0.01
30 / 78.8 / 0
33 / 77.72 / 0
36 / 76.28 / 0
39 / 74.3 / 0
42 / 72.32 / 0
45 / 70.88 / 0
48 / 69.98 / 0
51 / 68.36 / 0
54 / 66.74 / 0
57 / 65.48 / 0
60 / 64.76 / 0
63 / 64.04 / 0
66 / 63.14 / 0
69 / 62.42 / 0
72 / 61.34 / 0
75 / 60.62 / 0
78 / 60.08 / 0
81 / 59.18 / 0
84 / 58.46 / 0
87 / 58.1 / 0
90 / 57.38 / 0
93 / 56.84 / 0
96 / 56.3 / 0
99 / 55.94 / 0
100 / 55.58 / 0


As I said at the start this has been a great thread to follow and a lot of good debate has occured in it.


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## Fishlipps Revisited (Aug 20, 2010)

Leap'n'Lineman said:


> First off let me say that this has been a great discussion and I am posting this in what I hope will be a positive manner.  However I would like to point out that the same biologist that pbmang has been refering to also stated on a third forum that at this time he would suggest going to heavier tackle and not playing the fish as long because of the added stress to the fish.
> 
> 
> As I said at the start this has been a great thread to follow and a lot of good debate has occured in it.



every article i've ever read by any fisheries biologist in the last 30 years agrees that prolonged battles in hot weather isn't a good thing...they say that the lactic acid build up during a long, drawn-out  can be fatal...

maybe that's why i use a bit heavier tackle that a lot of people....it's been drummed into me for 3 decades...


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## mtr3333 (Aug 21, 2010)

*Battles*

Leapinlineman quoted Jim's take on getting fish in fast. In some cases that may be the second best effort. It has been my my experience the fish resist harder when you pull harder. This will add to the stress level of the fish. Also, a hard hook set can initiate the initial run that panics many of us into adding more pressure during the fight.

 I have great success guiding the direction of fish and using the drag to minimize the resistance stress of a hard fight. Rod action, distance (line stretch compensation), and hook sharpness will dictate the type of hook set in the start. You don't always need to "cross their eyes" for an effective hook set. Hard sets on fish in the vitals is a death certificate. Heavier tackle and a shorter high resistance fight puts more pressure precisely at the hook. The combined weight of the fish, its struggle, and and your "hossin" are possibly tearing into something else vital.  But how can you know where the hook might be? Largemouth and big Spots tend to swallow quicker. If you don't mind losing smaller "points fish", set the hook quickly, but only as hard as necessary.

 Second to the hook set is the "battle". Once out of the hazard(brush, cable,etc.), ease off the pressure and guide the fish towards you. This will work if you remain calm and don't think so much about counting $ after weigh in or what you may lose. On more than on occasion I have brought large fish to the boat without ever setting the hook. I know several others have done the same. 

 Lastly comes the landing. Once the fish is close, avoid lifting upwards. If you raise the head, the fish will try to escape again. Have the skirt and matching net ready for the fish to swim into. 

 Yes we will lose some fish regardless of our effort for  conservation. But it is my endeavor to improve. 

 If you've ever watched a snake being handled and no one panics, no one gets bit.

 Has anyone ever studied Allatoona's buffer and the % dissolved Co2 with possible affects of recreational traffic to PH?


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## sinclair1 (Aug 21, 2010)

mtr3333 said:


> Leapinlineman quoted Jim's take on getting fish in fast. In some cases that may be the second best effort. It has been my my experience the fish resist harder when you pull harder. This will add to the stress level of the fish. Also, a hard hook set can initiate the initial run that panics many of us into adding more pressure during the fight.
> 
> I have great success guiding the direction of fish and using the drag to minimize the resistance stress of a hard fight. Rod action, distance (line stretch compensation), and hook sharpness will dictate the type of hook set in the start. You don't always need to "cross their eyes" for an effective hook set. Hard sets on fish in the vitals is a death certificate. Heavier tackle and a shorter high resistance fight puts more pressure precisely at the hook. The combined weight of the fish, its struggle, and and your "hossin" are possibly tearing into something else vital.  But how can you know where the hook might be? Largemouth and big Spots tend to swallow quicker. If you don't mind losing smaller "points fish", set the hook quickly, but only as hard as necessary.
> 
> ...


I dont really understand the cross the eyes hookset these days. The hooks of today(gamy & owner) dont need that like the hooks of yesteryear did. Not only that, the line doesnt stretch like it did back when the eye crosser was popular.

I wonder everytime I catch a skin hooked fish, if I would have even caught it if I would have reared back and swung for the fence.

If I get him on top I will ski it in fast, but the diggers get the lead as you pointed out. I wonder what skiing the fish in does to his stress 
I cant seem to catch fish on allatoona with heavy line, so horsing it in on 6lb is outta the question anyway.

Its funny because in the 80's-90's I didnt use less than 14lb and usually 17lb line,but the spotted bass changed that.


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## Fishlipps Revisited (Aug 21, 2010)

i think a lot of people have different defintions of "horsing".....

people vary on their opinions of how to land a fish...there's the school of screwing your drag down tight and cranking the crap out of the fish, which isn't too bright....and, as i saw someone put it once, "playing a fish down to nothing", which isn't too bright, either....especially in hot weather...

another thing about "cranking the drag all the way down"....it can really turn into disaster if a big fish "short lines" you...i don't think anyone can react fast enough to avert disaster.....which can run from getting your line broken to your rod broken....i've had several nice size stripers grab my bait as i was lifting it out of the water...

knowing how to  properly set drag and knowing how much pressure you can put on a fish only comes with experience....i've fished with people that have no clue how to set a drag or what to do after you hook a fish...

i try to get the fish coming my way ASAP....if it's pulling too hard for me to turn, i give them their head for as long as it takes, but all the while maintaining a pretty good amount of pressure......UNLESS they head for cover from which i'm reasonably sure i won't get them out of if they get into it....then, i drop my thumb or index finder on the spool and apply pressure to what i think is the breaking point....which is where a bit heavier line shines...

there's a happy medium between the "horsing" and "over-playing"....but, it usually takes some disasters to learn it....


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## mtr3333 (Aug 22, 2010)

*Skin/Ski*



sinclair1 said:


> I wonder everytime I catch a skin hooked fish, if I would have even caught it if I would have reared back and swung for the fence.



 The skin hooked fish will put you in the fetal position if you don't have the discipline to relax. I witness the quick release often. They just keep on pumping like they always have. I know If I had done this on several occasions, I would not have even seen some really good fish.

 Skiing fish probably does not cause them to expend as much energy to add to stress. But getting to that point may be stressful. With my goal being to calm the fish as fast as I can. I'm not sure how calming a ski trip would be.


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