# Does God exist?



## DocHoliday (Feb 3, 2009)

Can you prove it? That is without the Bible. Also if you can show factual proof, where is He?


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## THREEJAYS (Feb 3, 2009)

DocHoliday said:


> Can you prove it? That is without the Bible. Also if you can show factual proof, where is He?



Can you prove he doesn't?


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## DocHoliday (Feb 3, 2009)

convince the non believer that He exists. Can you do it? The Christian Faith under the Great Commission commands the Christian to  disciple all nations. Can you do it without the Bible? Where is the proof? Come on now, You believe. Convince me.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 3, 2009)

Yes it can be done...but it will have to be in the form of story telling, because what is wanted is the "spirit" behind the story.

For example:

Once upon a time there was a man who was a generous man. He was a native who lived long ago. When he came to the end of his days, his Creator,  accorded him one wish.

Being a good and generous man, he wished not anything for himself. However, he asked that his children and his childrens' children not suffer as he did...with 200lb squirrils.

You see at every encampment his people had to work extra hard to hide food stuff and tools from the squirrels. Squirrels would make big holes in the indian tents and and hide indian foods in the big  squirrel holes near about their villages. 

The native children would fall in the holes, as they hunted for stores of food. The holes were so big  and  long that sometimes the children would get lost in them. The parents and grandparents had much greif for the 200lb squirrels.

And it is that the Creator accorded the old man's wish and we have the squirrels we have today.


_________Now! this story is not true, but the Spirit behind it, is.

And so this is how God is revealed to man, his Spirit, He is proved in story and story telling... Why do you think we are suckers for TV... We are wired for the campfire.


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## Sargent (Feb 3, 2009)

Are you talking physical facts, logical facts, philosophical facts?  

As far as physical, no.  

Logical and philosophical- yes.  

I am sure there is a much more technical name for my argument, but I just think of it as "parameters".  

Everything is created.  Everything.  With that creative process there has to be an action by an entity (whether human, animal, etc.) that "opens the parameter" of what is created's very existence.  Nothing is spontaneous.  Nothing can change or be created without forethought or physical action (maybe on a molecular level)

If we take this fact back to point zero in time, some action had to be either intellectually or instinctively taken in order to unleash the series of events that put us here today.

We can also assume that the more complex the creation, the more complex the creator.

Since nothing can begin without an action, something had to act in order for existence to begin. There has to be an entity that opened the parameter of existence.  That is God.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 3, 2009)

How do you pronounce that Dominic? Like the Buddist A-OOM?

Is God's tumb like youse' and mine? What's the print story behind it? or What's the story behind the print. Please don't tell me the Mason's stamp it in their bricks?


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## gordon 2 (Feb 3, 2009)

Dominic said:


> The Golden Ratio my dear Arcadian is everywhere.



Acadian perhaps? A plaster cast of a footprint does not a cougar make. Do you have a hair sample perhaps and within it a spiritual case?


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## celticfisherman (Feb 3, 2009)

My existence is proof enough.

But again logically and philosophically it can be proved.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 3, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> My existence is proof enough.
> 
> But again logically and philosophically it can be proved.




"My existence is proof enough." Good one.
However, well meaning christians use the factual attributes of false Gods to describe the real one.

These are the Gods that athiests clamp on, or trip on, and to which they can justifiably say your God does not exist. The natural world does not prove devinity. Man's spiritual nature does and God speaks through it. Like the elephants seperated by miles and miles, it(our spiritual natures) will walk miles and miles to meet its kind, to mill and mate.

God is a spiritual being, He is a Spirit, and so is man. Logics sometimes miss this little fact.


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## Randy (Feb 3, 2009)

From the very begining people have known there was a god.  It is in your heart.  Yes some peoples thought there was more than one (ie: sun god, moon god, water god).  But there has always been the "knowing" of a god.  It is not until the revealing of "The God" that people understand there is only one.  You don't have to prove it, He is in your heart.


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## celticfisherman (Feb 3, 2009)

gordon 2 said:


> "My existence is proof enough." Good one.
> However, well meaning christians use the factual attributes of false Gods to describe the real one.
> 
> These are the Gods that athiests clamp on, or trip on, and to which they can justifiably say your God does not exist. The natural world does not prove devinity. Man's spiritual nature does and God speaks through it. Like the elephants seperated by miles and miles, it(our spiritual natures) will walk miles and miles to meet its kind, to mill and mate.
> ...



We agree but I also believe we cannot convince an Atheist of the existence of God. Yes we can win philosophically and logically but that is often just thrown away by Atheists.

I love having the discussions but I do not hold hope for them without God so deeming it.


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## earl (Feb 3, 2009)

No you cannot prove it any more than you can prove he does  not exist. That is the short and correct answer. Either way it is just what you believe. The example my dad always gave was the wind. All you can see is it's effect. It works for both arguments.


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## pnome (Feb 3, 2009)

DocHoliday said:


> Can you prove it? That is without the Bible. Also if you can show factual proof, where is He?



Come on now.  You know the answer to this question.


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## leadoff (Feb 3, 2009)

DocHoliday said:


> Can you prove it? That is without the Bible. Also if you can show factual proof, where is He?



Can you prove that I exist?  To you, all I am is a screen name with an avatar with words appearing typed under my name....I may not be real at all.


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## pnome (Feb 3, 2009)

Sargent said:


> Are you talking physical facts, logical facts, philosophical facts?
> 
> As far as physical, no.
> 
> ...



Then who or what created god?


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## pnome (Feb 3, 2009)

leadoff said:


> Can you prove that I exist?  To you, all I am is a screen name with an avatar with words appearing typed under my name....I may not be real at all.



Your existence is not extraordinary.  Thus, we do not require much in the way of "proof"

God is extraordinary, and as such requires more in the way of proof.


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## celticfisherman (Feb 3, 2009)

pnome said:


> Your existence is not in extraordinary.  Thus, we do not require much in the way of "proof"
> 
> God is extraordinary, and as such requires more in the way of proof.



He's given you plenty you just chose to ignore it. Now in your worldview this may not matter. In mine it effects your life and the whereabouts of your soul in the next.


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## coreyhopper22 (Feb 3, 2009)

Randy said:


> From the very begining people have known there was a god.  It is in your heart.  Yes some peoples thought there was more than one (ie: sun god, moon god, water god).  But there has always been the "knowing" of a god.  It is not until the revealing of "The God" that people understand there is only one.  You don't have to prove it, He is in your heart.



Im not really wanting to be in this but you say we have always known there was a god dont you think its because we were all raised to believe it! Im not saying there is or isnt but what if we were never told about him then what would you belive


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## pnome (Feb 3, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> My existence is proof enough.
> 
> But again logically and philosophically it can be proved.



I think you are referring here to what is known as the "Argument from Improbability".  

Once again here are the top ten arguments for the existence of God:
(Shamelessly cut-n-paste from  http://freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Top_ten_arguments_for_the_existence_of_God)





> *10. Shifting the Burden of Proof*
> 
> a.k.a. _You can't prove God doesn't exist, False criteria fallacy, fallacy of questionable criteria_
> *Premise:*
> ...


</dd></dl>


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## leadoff (Feb 3, 2009)

pnome said:


> Your existence is not extraordinary.  Thus, we do not require much in the way of "proof"
> 
> God is extraordinary, and as such requires more in the way of proof.



If you have no faith, I guess you'll never have "proof."   Such is the nature of "extraordinary" things (as you say).  I guess you could say something that is extraordinary is beyond our understanding, and how can you prove something that surpasses your ability to understand it in the first place?  

BTW...How do you know I'm not extraordinary?  You've obviously never met me!


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## gordon 2 (Feb 3, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> We agree but I also believe we cannot convince an Atheist of the existence of God. Yes we can win philosophically and logically but that is often just thrown away by Atheists.
> 
> I love having the discussions but I do not hold hope for them without God so deeming it.



I agree.  A mature heathy brain stuck with denying the God of five yr olds and geriatrics is akin to using a 375H&H on grouse. Hopefully, it, one day they, will need to use a  single shot .22 on a moose and learn from it.

The problem of course is that the Jesus of christian, the God of muslims, the compassion of the Budda are not children's toys.

Logic cannot find in itself a God anywhere, nor a use for "It", and thinks it safe to say that the world is created in its image.

One thing that Athiest and christians have in common is that the God athiest deny, christians also deny, because it is a false one.

Were are the "there are no Athiests in fox holes" crowd today? They are usually entertaining. Perhaps they are being entertained themselves by the ghost of Buddy Holly?

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=5x9PPtPmoy4&feature=PlayList&p=230000203D59E2F1&index=0&playnext=1


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## celticfisherman (Feb 3, 2009)

But again pnome I don't believe you can believe in him. So why argue? If you are called you will. I am a predestination Pres...


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## GA1dad (Feb 3, 2009)

coreyhopper22 said:


> Im not really wanting to be in this but you say we have always known there was a god dont you think its because we were all raised to believe it! Im not saying there is or isnt but what if we were never told about him then what would you belive




There is a lot of truth to this satement. Not only does what we learn from others decide whether we believe or not,,,, it also dictates what religion we believe in.


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## gtparts (Feb 3, 2009)

pnome said:


> Your existence is not extraordinary.  Thus, we do not require much in the way of "proof"
> 
> God is extraordinary, and as such requires more in the way of proof.


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## pnome (Feb 3, 2009)

gtparts said:


>




You are correct sir.


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## gtparts (Feb 3, 2009)

pnome said:


> i think you are referring here to what is known as the "argument from improbability".
> 
> Once again here are the top ten arguments for the existence of god:
> (shamelessly cut-n-paste from  http://freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/top_ten_arguments_for_the_existence_of_god)
> ...



again!


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## jawja_peach (Feb 3, 2009)

Have you ever looked in the eyes of a baby?? That is God. The purest thing in the whole wide world. I can not say anything to convince you. It's something YOU have to seek out on your own. I had to. It's something no one can show you. God will reveal Himself to you in His way, but you must have an open mind and heart. You coming on here challenging us, believers, to 'convince me. Go ahead...' You are not ready to seek God, you are just wanting to read an argument. When you get ready, spiritually, in your heart, you will NOT have to ask a believer to 'prove' it to you. You WILL KNOW. Nature its self shows you there is a God. I'm sorry but I can not believe that all this is an accident from a big bang. Look at a lief. Look at how not one is alike another. Look at twin babies. Came from the same mother and father and look A LOT -- not exact because there are difference--- but both are different. No two anything in nature is exactly the same. We also have our own soul. And my soul is totally different than anyone else. I am unique. Which is probably good. You will never be convinced until you have that personal one on one encounter with God. I hope that maybe through this question, that God maybe starting to reveal Himself to you. If not, you will have to seek Him yourself. No one can do it for you. But I do have one more thing to tell you. When you are saved, or a person is saved, it's the best feeling. To know you have a Spiritual father who when your life is out of control, He can take over and fix it. I have been down at the bottom, friend, in debt and needing a few bills paid, I'm ill and have had a lot of bills that until I got my disability were mounting up. And even years ago, little bills that mount up. God has stepped in my friend and out of no where, there were checks pop'n up, or a mistake here or there bring my 'amount due' down to the point that I can pay payments on them. I could sit here and tell you how I have seen God in my life, and those that have been cured. But you not being sincere would try to give me 'logical, scientific' answers. So to sum it all up until you are ready in your heart, and seek God nothing any of us say will 'convince ' you.


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## leadoff (Feb 3, 2009)

GA1dad said:


> There is a lot of truth to this satement. Not only does what we learn from others decide whether we believe or not,,,, it also dictates what religion we believe in.



I agree to an extent.  Not many dogs lie around and question their existence...they mainly just chase cats, drink from the toilet, lick themselves and poop in the flower garden.  

We, on the other hand, have volumes of literature, multitudes of plays, and galleries of art devoted to the reason for our being.  I don't think that it is a mere coincidence that we have this desire within our psyche.  Much like V'ger on the _Star Trek_ movie, we are programmed from the start to understand our existence and search for our Creator.  So then, to deny God would be to deny your own existence?


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## gtparts (Feb 3, 2009)

The single thing that arises out of this thread for me is pnome's assertion that the idea, "that God exists" is extraordinary and requires extraordinary proof.

I agree! 

The problem is that pnome immediately retreats to accepting only ordinary proof. 

Spiritual proof is  extraordinary, it far exceeds and surpasses logic and reason. 

That I and millions of others, both on this forum and around the globe have a personal relationship with the living God is hyper-super-extraordinary. He knows that testimony to this spiritual reality is made constantly by those who have come to know and worship our Lord and Savior, but he will not accept that testimony.

Where is the logic in that?


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## bat (Feb 3, 2009)

leadoff said:


> If you have no faith, I guess you'll never have "proof."



There will be proof... at the judgement day, then everyone will "wish" their faith would have been stronger or that they would have had "faith" period!

There is a verse of Scripture somewhere (I'm trying to locate it) that says some to the effect of:  you may not believe in God now but you will in time..  judgement time will come and everyone "will" answer to God.   
That is nowhere close to how the verse is written but I remember reading it not long ago.  Just have to find it again.  Toward the end of the Bible somewhere.


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## pnome (Feb 3, 2009)

gtparts said:


> The single thing that arises out of this thread for me is pnome's assertion that the idea, "that God exists" is extraordinary and requires extraordinary proof.
> 
> I agree!
> 
> ...



Time to beat some more horses. 

Spiritual proof?  What is this?  

The second half of your post is simply a re-wording of the "Argument from Popularity" See #9 above.


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## jawja_peach (Feb 3, 2009)

gtparts said:


> again!



 Love the dead horse...lol...

 Here we go again hu?? Nope. It's something that they have to seek on their own and everyone's experience is different...


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## celticfisherman (Feb 3, 2009)

pnome said:


> Time to beat some more horses.
> 
> Spiritual proof?  What is this?
> 
> The second half of your post is simply a re-wording of the "Argument from Popularity" See #9 above.


You will never agree with us. So why bother?


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## Ronnie T (Feb 3, 2009)

Even Jesus couldn't convince everyone of His Devine nature while He ministered for 3 years on the earth.  Some almost believed but their pride and past wouldn't allow it.
The first 5 chapter of Romans describes all the proofs that are apparent in the world.
But no one can be convinced.
It's an issue of faith.
Many will believe and receive; many will not.

But, one day, every knee will bow.


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## ToLog (Feb 3, 2009)

when i'm really seeking God on my own, i enter Nature, the Natural World, the Other Book of the Bible.


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## pnome (Feb 3, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> You will never agree with us. So why bother?




Because there is an off chance that you might one day agree with me.


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## celticfisherman (Feb 3, 2009)

pnome said:


> Because there is an off chance that you might one day agree with me.



And an off chance you might agree with me.


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## gtparts (Feb 3, 2009)

pnome said:


> Time to beat some more horses.
> 
> Spiritual proof?  What is this?
> 
> The second half of your post is simply a re-wording of the "Argument from Popularity" See #9 above.



Does my heart good to see you express your ignorance of spiritual things.

Once you know that you have not "cornered the market" on things spiritual, there may be hope for you, yet.


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## Huntinfool (Feb 3, 2009)

Does God exist?

Wow....I don't even know where to start.  First, I'll admit, it's a question that I have asked many times.  It's one that I have desperately wanted an answer to.  "If he's real, why won't he just PROVE it and be done with it?" is kind of how my mind wondered for years...and still does sometimes.

It sounds like what you are looking for is a DEDUCTIVE logic process that will get us to the conclusion that, irrefutably yes, God does exist.  The problem is that deductive reasoning or logic starts with universals and proceeds to particulars.  So we would have to start with something we agree on...for instance, "all life was created".  Obviously, that won't happen.

Inductive reasoning or logic is the only possible way to arrive at the ultimate conclusion of God (when talking with an atheist) and it would start with particulars (i.e. nature) and end up at the Ultimate Universal....God.  We work backward to the Universal from the particulars.  Inductive logic becomes more convincing the more times you arrive at the same Universal.  Take, for instance an example of looking at a book in a library (I stole this from Ravi...not my own):

You pick up a book in a particular section of the library and examine it.

First premise - This book is from this section....true
Second premise - This book is a science book....true
Third premise - All books in this section are science books.

Now, you may or may not be right in the third premise.  But as you continue to examine more and more books in that section and see that each book you examine is, indeed, a science book, you become more confident in your INDUCTIVE reasoning that "all books in this section are science books".  So you are slowly coming to a conclusion that has a high probability of being true.

*The thing that bridges the gap between "high probability" and "certainty".....is Faith.  I'm sorry.  But that's the truth.*



Also, I think that the critique of the "First Cause" argument above is extremely weak.  Nowhere in the first cause argument do theists ask for a special exemption for a creator...they point out WHY a creator MUST exist.

"First Cause" simply states that when you look at an event (A), you know it was caused by another event (B) behind it which itself has been caused by another event (C) and so on....

We keep moving backwards to find out what the event was that caused all subsequent events.  The timeframe CANNOT be infinite.  Something (or someone) had to have "caused the first cause".  As advanced as science is, contrary to that post, it is NOT getting any closer to answering the question of "What caused the first cause".

When I talk about God, I am talking about the One who stands behind the first cause.  Can I prove the existence of God without the Bible?  Probably not.  But I can do a pretty dang good job of proving a creator.  Faith and the Bible bridge the gap for me to the ONE who IS the creator....God.



I'm not under the delusion that any of these arguments will sway you and they are just a start.  But I will say that I don't believe things just because I'm told they are true.  I have to be convinced and this was and has always been a tough one for me.  So I'll give you the argument that you like the least and would consider the weakest.  But coming from me it should actually be the strongest because I am the biggest doubter I've ever met....I JUST KNOW.

It took a VERY personal, one on one encounter to convince me.  Contrary to what science may want to say, there is no other explanation for what happened other than God intervened in my life for the express purpose of proving it to me.  But I know you don't buy that.  It's cool.  You don't have to believe it.  Maybe God doesn't reveal himself on a global scale much these days.  But I know that he still does it on an individual basis.


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## pnome (Feb 3, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> When I talk about God, I am talking about the One who stands behind the first cause.  Can I prove the existence of God without the Bible?  Probably not.  But I can do a pretty dang good job of proving a creator.  Faith and the Bible bridge the gap for me to the ONE who IS the creator....God.



You are making a special pleading that your God is exempt from needing a cause.  That he is the "first cause".


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## celticfisherman (Feb 3, 2009)

pnome said:


> You are making a special pleading that your God is exempt from needing a cause.  That he is the "first cause".



Yes. He is the cause of all.

Nothing happens from nothing.


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## bdnga (Feb 3, 2009)

Richard Dawkins, a scientist / Athiest / Darwinist, wrote an article titled "Athiests for Jesus".  In the article he explained that he does not understand the kindness and love many of his friends have and show for others, which he goes on to explain, is the opposite of
Darwin's theory (the strong survive). But he says while he cannot explain this in scientific terms, he acknowledges that it exists, he can see this behaviour, and that the world needs much more of it.

I think the evidence of God is all around us in those people that exhibit Christ-like qualities ... or the "milk of human kindness".

Faith, was described to me long ago as an "active" term.  In other words, faith is different than simply believing.  We can believe an airplane can carry us in flight - but real faith is when we set foot on it to take a trip.

Church, religion, and all the other trappings are what we hear about all the time ..... but it is the personal relationship with God that matters.  I believe that relationship begins by asking forgiveness of our sins through the blood of Jesus Christ ...in other words, he paid the price already, we just have to accept his free gift of eternal life.

I had many people cross my path before I became a Christian and showed me many kindnesses - I don't think these were accidents, and I believe God was/is working in my life.

I hope that you find what you are seeking.  Becoming a Christian for me was a turning point in my life, and whether you believe, or don't, I wish God's blessings on you!


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## Huntinfool (Feb 3, 2009)

No, I'm not making a special plea.  That's why I think that argument is weak.  

I'm not asking that he get an exemption.  I am asserting or accepting that he IS.

Honestly, if he WERE created....I wouldn't worship him.


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## pnome (Feb 3, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> No, I'm not making a special plea.  That's why I think that argument is weak.
> 
> I'm not asking that he get an exemption.  I am asserting or accepting that he IS.
> 
> Honestly, if he WERE created....I wouldn't worship him.




If everything must have a cause, as you state, than what caused god?  If you say that he does not need a cause, then you are making a special plea for him to be exempt from the very logic you are using to prove him.  

Why not just slice off that regression of causes and simply say, the "The Universe just exists"  rather than throwing in some superfluous deity?


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## gtparts (Feb 3, 2009)

pnome said:


> If everything must have a cause, as you state, than what caused god?  If you say that he does not need a cause, then you are making a special plea for him to be exempt from the very logic you are using to prove him.
> 
> Why not just slice off that regression of causes and simply say, the "The Universe just exists"  rather than throwing in some superfluous deity?




That won't work by your own argument. If it exist, it has an origin. You are making a special plea for the infinite existence of the universe. Our own science tells us the universe had a beginning. Now you are arguing against the greatest minds in cosmology today.

Do you not see the contradiction in what you have said?


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## pnome (Feb 3, 2009)

gtparts said:


> That won't work by your own argument. If it exist, it has an origin. You are making a special plea for the infinite existence of the universe. Our own science tells us the universe had a beginning. Now you are arguing against the greatest minds in cosmology today.
> 
> Do you not see the contradiction in what you have said?



I am making no such plea.  I don't know what caused the Universe beyond the "Big Bang." I doubt we will ever be able to know, since no information from before the time of the big bang has made it across into our universe.   I am content with not knowing.  Do I think there was a cause?  It certainly seem to follow with our current scientific knowledge.  But there is no reason to jump to conclusions like "It was the God of Abraham" without any sort of observable evidence.


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## WTM45 (Feb 3, 2009)

bdnga said:


> Many will say that much violence has been initiated in the name of religion, but I believe the opposite is true......



Better look a little closer at history.....


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## gtparts (Feb 3, 2009)

pnome said:


> I am making no such plea.  I don't know what caused the Universe beyond the "Big Bang." I doubt we will ever be able to know, since no information from before the time of the big bang has made it across into our universe.   I am content with not knowing.  Do I think there was a cause?  It certainly seem to follow with our current scientific knowledge.  But there is no reason to jump to conclusions like "It was the God of Abraham" without any sort of observable evidence.



Your words below. Sounds like a plea to give you a pass on the origin of the universe, to me.



> Originally Posted by pnome
> 
> Why not just slice off that regression of causes and simply say, the "The Universe just exists" rather than throwing in some superfluous deity?


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## Huntinfool (Feb 3, 2009)

pnome said:


> If everything must have a cause, as you state, than what caused god?  If you say that he does not need a cause, then you are making a special plea for him to be exempt from the very logic you are using to prove him.
> 
> Why not just slice off that regression of causes and simply say, the "The Universe just exists"  rather than throwing in some superfluous deity?



But what I said was that, logically (and actually scientifically as well), there must have been an "ultimate cause".  There has to have been a first cause that has always existed and was not "caused" itself.  The concept is way beyond our ability to logic and I won't pretend that I understand something that was not created and has always been.

But since I do agree with you that there must have been a "first cause"....the confluence of the remainder of the evidence points me in the direction of the "God of Abraham".


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## pnome (Feb 3, 2009)

Ok, let's break this down a bit....

Here is the argument simplified:

1. Everything that happens has a cause. (presupposition)
2. At one point, something came from nothing, the Universe came into existence. (presupposition)
3. This must have had a cause. (From 1 and 2)
4. Since no matter existed at that moment, the cause must have been God.  (I would add that it need not be "God" but simply a prime mover)

5. The next thing that follows from this is that God must have had a cause.  If you deny this, you deny the first presupposition and the entire argument falls apart in infinite regression.  Agreed?

So let's take a look at presupposition  #2

At one point, something came from nothing.  It is almost certain that our universe came into existence 10-12 billion years ago.  However, since time is also part of the universe, there was never any time when there was nothing.  That can be a little hard to grasp.  There was no time "before" the universe.  To use the word "before" you have to invoke time which is itself part of the universe.  So, it follows from this that the universe has existed at every point in time.  Thus it was not "caused" by anything.  This is not the same thing as saying that the universe has existed for an infinite amount of time.  But rather that time has been around as long as the universe has.

So there you go.  The universe just exists.


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## celticfisherman (Feb 3, 2009)

pnome said:


> Ok, let's break this down a bit....
> 
> Here is the argument simplified:
> 
> ...




OK so let's break this down.

There's a little voice.... Naw... God spoke and BANG!!!! It was.

God just exists.


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## DocHoliday (Feb 3, 2009)

Back to the top for the evening crowd.


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## jasonm2725 (Feb 3, 2009)

Does God exist, Yes he certainly does, and yes I can prove it.Ask anyone who has had the Holy Spirit change their life, does God exist and they'll tell you he certainly does.If you knew me and my life before Christ you would know there is a God.But make no mistake about it,  knowing there is a God ,and Knowing God,are two different things.But to those who try to disprove God know this,you who try to disprove God will always try to do just that because it can't be done.


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## Lead Poison (Feb 3, 2009)

bat said:


> There will be proof... at the judgement day, then everyone will "wish" their faith would have been stronger or that they would have had "faith" period!
> 
> There is a verse of Scripture somewhere (I'm trying to locate it) that says some to the effect of:  you may not believe in God now but you will in time..  judgement time will come and everyone "will" answer to God.
> That is nowhere close to how the verse is written but I remember reading it not long ago.  Just have to find it again.  Toward the end of the Bible somewhere.



*Romans 14:11 (New International Version)

Verse 11:

It is written: 
   " 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 
   'every knee will bow before me; 
      every tongue will confess to God.'*


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## DocHoliday (Feb 3, 2009)

jasonm2725 said:


> Does God exist, Yes he certainly does, and yes I can prove it.Ask anyone who has had the Holy Spirit change their life, does God exist and they'll tell you he certainly does.If you knew me and my life before Christ you would know there is a God.But make no mistake about it,  knowing there is a God ,and Knowing God,are two different things.But to those who try to disprove God know this,you who try to disprove God will always try to do just that because it can't be done.


Just because you say the Holy Spirit has changed your life doens't provide factual proof to any other person. Only to you. The Christian Commission is to disciple the world. So disciple it. But first you must prove that their is in fact a God.


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## THREEJAYS (Feb 3, 2009)

DocHoliday said:


> convince the non believer that He exists. Can you do it? The Christian Faith under the Great Commission commands the Christian to  disciple all nations. Can you do it without the Bible? Where is the proof? Come on now, You believe. Convince me.



All we are called to do is plant the seed.I am not responsible past that(meaning that I in and of myself can't make anyone believe ).


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## pnome (Feb 3, 2009)

jasonm2725 said:


> But to those who try to disprove God know this,you who try to disprove God will always try to do just that because it can't be done.



Amen.  I completely agree.


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## GA1dad (Feb 3, 2009)

If you are realistic as to what God is,,,, then God does not need to be proven.

The simplest definition of "God" is that "God" is a frame of mind. A mans actions prove whether or not God exist,,,,,, in his mind. His frame of mind needs not be proven to anyone,,,,,


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## magnum62 (Feb 3, 2009)

Where did concepts(?) like truth, honor, love, trust etc. come from?


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## pnome (Feb 4, 2009)

magnum62 said:


> Where did concepts(?) like truth, honor, love, trust etc. come from?




Your instinct for survival.

Truth: Knowing the "truth" is valuable to survival.  If you were not able to distinguish true from false, you would not live very long.

Honor: Your chances of survival are enhanced greatly when you can team up with others.  But in order for the team to be a team, you have to have confidence that your teammates will do what they say they are going to do.  That they will "honor" their word.

Love: For humans, a mating pair that stays together long enough to raise their offspring impart a survival advantage to that offspring.  This also applies for the offspring.  An offspring who stays with it's parents long enough to mature has a survival advantage.

Trust:  Much the same as honor.  For cooperative survival, trust is essential.


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## Huntinfool (Feb 4, 2009)

pnome said:


> At one point, something came from nothing.



Here's where we differ.  I would say that "something" has always existed.  God "IS", and always has been.  No beginning, no end.  Can I wrap my brain around that?  Not really.

But we work within the confines of a timeline.  That's how we work.  So that's how we require that things be understood.


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## Huntinfool (Feb 4, 2009)

DocHoliday said:


> Just because you say the Holy Spirit has changed your life doens't provide factual proof to any other person. Only to you. The Christian Commission is to disciple the world. So disciple it. But first you must prove that their is in fact a God.



If I were to prove to you that God exists and yet you'd never had a personla experience with him....I mean if he'd never done anything for you...if you'd never felt the healing power of the HS...do you REALLY believe that you'd trust him with your life and your soul?

I seriously doubt it.  Fact is that salvation is personal...it is not a logical series of arguments that convince you God is real.

You are starting with a flawed premise.


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## THREEJAYS (Feb 4, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> If I were to prove to you that God exists and yet you'd never had a personla experience with him....I mean if he'd never done anything for you...if you'd never felt the healing power of the HS...do you REALLY believe that you'd trust him with your life and your soul?
> 
> I seriously doubt it.  Fact is that salvation is personal...it is not a logical series of arguments that convince you God is real.
> 
> You are starting with a flawed premise.



Well put,I also believe that if you have to be convinced that theres something greater than ourselves at work it will take something greater than me.


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## Rays123 (Feb 4, 2009)

So you seriously believe someone like Richard Dawkins? just listen to the man talk for 1 min and youll know hes crazy. When he was actually confronted with ??s about creation he had no answers and was completely dumbfounded.
So you believe we all just evolved from some single cell organism you gotta be kidding me. you know just as well as i do god put us on this earth no single celled organism


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## catnron (Feb 4, 2009)

Look into the eyes of your child, do u think you created this child without the help of God? Look into the loving eyes of your Mother, do you think she created you without the help ofGod? Look into the eyes of someone that is dying & ready to meet the Lord you will see what you are looking for. God Bless


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## DocHoliday (Feb 5, 2009)

I want to thank every one who replied to my thread. I simply was looking for opinions and ideas of others. I know that I worded my question or challenge perhaps in such a way that all thought that I did not believe in God. I asure you that I do. I have Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as my Saviour. I have several ideas and thoughts for threads that I will be posting a long and along. They are simply to provoke you to think. This thread was worded to get you to thinking, is there enough of the Word of God within me to convince somebody that there is a God and the need of a Saviour named Jesus. You may not always have a Bible with you when the time arises. The Word of God needs to come from within us when the time to witness arises.Again thanks to all who posted.
Doc


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## Oldstick (Feb 6, 2009)

This may sound ironic but my opinion is that if they ever somehow "prove" that the processes described in evolutionary theory did occur then they have also proven the existence of God.  

This is because of the laws of mathematics and probability.  The mathematical chances are virtually zero that the complicated processes they describe could have started spontanously without some helping hand.


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## ambush80 (Feb 6, 2009)

greers57 said:


> This may sound ironic but my opinion is that if they ever somehow "prove" that the processes described in evolutionary theory did occur then they have also proven the existence of God.
> 
> This is because of the laws of mathematics and probability.  The mathematical chances are virtually zero that the complicated processes they describe could have started spontanously without some helping hand.



Just cause you don't understand it doesn't make it "magical".

Not long ago, humans would cower to and worship lightning.  Seems silly now.


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## celticfisherman (Feb 6, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> Just cause you don't understand it doesn't make it "magical".
> 
> Not long ago, humans would cower to and worship lightning.  Seems silly now.



So does believing in darwinism...


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## Oldstick (Feb 6, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> Just cause you don't understand it doesn't make it "magical".
> 
> Not long ago, humans would cower to and worship lightning.  Seems silly now.



OK, then you explain how the process started.  And it has to include hard scientific evidence and/or mathematical proofs that someone with a physics degree would buy into.  No hypothetical possibilities.  I am waiting...

Oh, By the way there are few inexplicable (by humans) properties of lightning along with magnetism and gravity.  

How do these forces of nature reach out and interact with surrounding objects (or atoms or molecules) when they are physically separated by empty space?


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## pnome (Feb 6, 2009)

greers57 said:


> OK, then you explain how the process started.  And it has to include hard scientific evidence and/or mathematical proofs that someone with a physics degree would buy into.  No hypothetical possibilities.  I am waiting...
> 
> Oh, By the way there are few inexplicable (by humans) properties of lightning along with magnetism and gravity.
> 
> How do these forces of nature reach out and interact with surrounding objects (or atoms or molecules) when they are physically separated by empty space?



Do you know these answers?  Can you explain them?


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## thedeacon (Feb 6, 2009)

*Wrestle a hog*



DocHoliday said:


> Can you prove it? That is without the Bible. Also if you can show factual proof, where is He?




Debating with some people is like wrestling with a hawg,
There is no way you can win, you both get very dirty and the hawg has a much better time


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## JC (Feb 6, 2009)

ok I tried to stay out of this.  but riddle me this, can you prove George Washington was the first president of the United States without your history book?


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## JC (Feb 6, 2009)

How about science?  2nd law of thermo dynamics states everything set in motion must be set in motion by something that can not be moved


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## JC (Feb 6, 2009)

Lets continue with science.  Lets take your (i guess) stance is that the universe was created from nothing or that an atom or molecule has always existed.  Well I guess you can figure what I have to say about that.


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## JC (Feb 6, 2009)

lets take history and every other world religion.  In the writings of Josephus the Roman historian, he wrote of Jesus who went around healing people and raising them from the dead.  Every religion acknowledges Jesus and Jesus said he was God in flesh


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## JC (Feb 6, 2009)

we can actually go back and forth for a lifetime on this.  But in the end it will take faith to take the last step.  Because chronilogically we live in faith times.  God was one on one with creation, but we turned our backs on him.  He then went to signs and wonders, we still turned on him.  He then put on flesh and humans killed him (which by the way was predicted).  So now we live in faith times.  Unfortunately its just the way it is and leaves us to spend our lives in this pursuit of truth.  Just the fact that your wanting to know confirms something in your heart is searching.  Longing for their to be proof.  Needing to have something that brings meaing and purpose to this thing called life.  Believe it or not, this God I believe in made you that way, is that crazy or what.  His word says He has set eternity in our hearts.  Meaning we long for more, look for more, because nothing in this life carries the power to permanently fulfill us.  Thats why we are on this chat, its why we are on GON because the gun or boat we thought would do it no longer does it so we are selling it and looking for another one hoping it is it.


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## Oldstick (Feb 7, 2009)

pnome said:


> Do you know these answers?  Can you explain them?



No I can't explain them and neither can anyone else.  Go ask any physicist.  

He will tell you, even though they can mathematicaly describe and predict the gravitational force between two objects and the resulting motion of the two objects to the nth degree.  But they do not know the mechanism of how the force causes the action over huge distances of empty space.


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## ambush80 (Feb 7, 2009)

greers57 said:


> No I can't explain them and neither can anyone else.  Go ask any physicist.
> 
> He will tell you, even though they can mathematicaly describe and predict the gravitational force between two objects and the resulting motion of the two objects to the nth degree.  But they do not know the mechanism of how the force causes the action over huge distances of empty space.



So you vote for "magic" as an explanation?    I'm glad that there are people (scientists) who don't accept "magic" as an explanation and keep trying to figure out how stuff works..


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## Oldstick (Feb 8, 2009)

I don't recall saying magic.  I AM a scientist.


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## Israel (Feb 8, 2009)

Does matter exist?
Where else, but in the consciousness of man?
Does "existence" exist?
Where else, but in the consciousness of man?
If anything is "truly" anything, then it must be so apart from the consciousness of man, and not dependent upon it.
If any, and everything, has its existence solely in the mind of man, then we are all wholly deluded, and using that deluded device to try to ascertain anything is futile and foolish.
For if a tree falls in the forest with no one to hear it, it surely disturbs the air at a certain frequency, but it makes no sound.
For sound, by definition, requires a receiver to interpret that compression of atmosphere as something able to be heard.
The very fact that men believe they can communicate, and do so, and continue to try and do so puts the lie to even the most hardened atheists assertion that all exists only within himself.
For the atheist to attempt to prove there is something that "is" apart from himself...including truth...and specifically the truth that "God is not"...disqualifies him from any discussion on the basis that unless there is an agreed objective truth against which all other observations can be measured and "communicated", the discussion is, again, futile.

I, therefore, have not come to the conclusion that God exists, I have come to the conclusion that I exist. In that conclusion is the apriori assumption of the one whose existence is self affirming and totally without initiation...mine however is, quite obviously, dependent.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Feb 8, 2009)

DocHoliday said:


> Can you prove it? That is without the Bible. Also if you can show factual proof, where is He?


 

Does wind exist?


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## footjunior (Feb 10, 2009)

pnome said:


> I am making no such plea.  I don't know what caused the Universe beyond the "Big Bang." I doubt we will ever be able to know, since no information from before the time of the big bang has made it across into our universe.   I am content with not knowing.  Do I think there was a cause?  It certainly seem to follow with our current scientific knowledge.  But there is no reason to jump to conclusions like "It was the God of Abraham" without any sort of observable evidence.



QFT

Theists seem to get upset and believe that atheists think they have all the answers, yet when atheists admit that they simply don't know something, theists then claim that they are making a special pleading argument. A pleading argument to what? Ignorance? Pnome said himself that he does not know the origin of the singularity. It is theists who make the claim for their preferred God. I would enjoy reading someone's response to Pnome's last sentence in the quote.


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## gtparts (Feb 10, 2009)

footjunior said:


> QFT
> 
> Theists seem to get upset and believe that atheists think they have all the answers, yet when atheists admit that they simply don't know something, theists then claim that they are making a special pleading argument. A pleading argument to what? Ignorance? Pnome said himself that he does not know the origin of the singularity. It is theists who make the claim for their preferred God. I would enjoy reading someone's response to Pnome's last sentence in the quote.





> "But there is no reason to jump to conclusions like "It was the God of Abraham" without any sort of observable evidence."




FJ, I would direct you to two words which form the stumbling block over which you and pnome seem determined to fall.

1) reason

There is a basic disagreement on what rational thought is. On the one hand, the two of you are willing to accept that the diversity of life and life, itself, is the result of a chain of millions , if not billions or trillions of random cosmic "accidents", but do not give serious consideration to a God creating everything _ex nihilo_. 

On more than one occasion, Occam's Razor has been misapplied in such a way as to  support the atheist position, but if the razor is valid , it cuts for the theist. That creationists base their belief on a single premise (the existence of God) that answers the questions of the universe, is a far more simple explanation than the totality of scientific discovery which necessarily builds on the speculations of men who many times lack the ability to observe or perform repeatable, controlled experiments, yet still draw conclusions that are unsupported by scientific proof.

This brings us to the second word:

2) evidence

The testimony of hundreds of people, even thousands as to the resurrection of Jesus, coupled with the silence of those who would most benefit from disproving it, screams for the conclusion that the resurrection account is true. Likewise, the miracles He performed never received any refutation during His ministry and immediately following.
And you have the testimony of millions as to what Christ has done in their lives and the plain evidence of those changes in their behavior. You casually wipe all that aside, recognizing the change but denying the attested cause by those who experienced the change.

So, you see how far apart we are on reason and evidence.

 While Christians can look at science and question it on the basis of what they know to be true concerning God, they also see how much of what is considered scientific knowledge points to creative design and therefore the Creator. Atheists point to a few scientific areas still not fully understood and disregard the bulk of what science shows us about a design that could not possibly be the result of cosmic "accidents".

All that being said, I choose to place my confidence in the God of Abraham.

Peace.


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## leadoff (Feb 10, 2009)

footjunior said:


> QFT
> 
> I would enjoy reading someone's response to Pnome's last sentence in the quote.





			
				pnome said:
			
		

> "But there is no reason to jump to conclusions like "It was the God of Abraham" without any sort of observable evidence."



OK, I'll try...

Father Abraham had many sons.  Many sons had Father Abraham.  I am one of them, and so are you.  Let's just praise the Lord.


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## celticfisherman (Feb 10, 2009)

leadoff said:


> OK, I'll try...
> 
> Father Abraham had many sons.  Many sons had Father Abraham.  I am one of them, and so are you.  Let's just praise the Lord.


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## leftehud (Feb 10, 2009)

> You are starting with a flawed premise.


trying to apply finite human logic to a infinite supernatural God 
faith must play a part of the equation. faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. 
For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. Gods word is the only thing capable of proving it's author GOD. I can only simply point to it
to be salt and light, believe it now or later all will.
I pray when ones  life truly hits the crapper a believer will be there to pour Gods grace out on you. He will then be real. From a human standpoint I think that is why we are so drawn to  the david copperfields of this world. It is undeniable  at our core  we are all wired and drawn to the supernatural. we are all moths to a flame.
You can't get anymore supernatural than God Himself
some moths just have never seen a flame


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## ambush80 (Feb 10, 2009)

gtparts said:


> FJ, I would direct you to two words which form the stumbling block over which you and pnome seem determined to fall.
> 
> 1) reason
> 
> ...



I googled "did George Washington cut down a cherry tree?"  and got very different stories.   That's a testament to the power of legends.


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## gtparts (Feb 10, 2009)

> What if it was 3 deities or 100, or Zeus or Ganesh? The same reason that you unequivocally deny that that is possible is the same reason that it could have been no one.



Logically speaking, I have fewer problems with those positions than with the concept of there being no deity.




> I googled "did George Washington cut down a cherry tree?" and got very different stories. That's a testament to the power of legends.



Exactly how many individuals witnessed GW's delinquent act? Did GW ever give any indication that he even did such a thing? Only GW and witnesses to the deed can give testimony to the veracity of such a claim. The various authors of the books in the New Testament documenting the death and resurrection of Jesus were privileged to see Jesus before His death and after His resurrection, as well as the miracles He performed. There is no sensible parallel between the two stories. Why would you even bring up GW and the cherry tree?


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## pnome (Feb 10, 2009)

gtparts said:


> FJ, I would direct you to two words which form the stumbling block over which you and pnome seem determined to fall.
> 
> 1) reason
> 
> There is a basic disagreement on what rational thought is. On the one hand, the two of you are willing to accept that the diversity of life and life, itself, is the result of a chain of millions , if not billions or trillions of random cosmic "accidents", but do not give serious consideration to a God creating everything _ex nihilo_.



First let me state that evolution does not happen by accident.  There is nothing random about it.

As far as how the universe came to be how we know it, I'm also not suggesting accident.  I'm saying "I don't know for certain, and neither do you."  The Big Bang has plenty of observable evidence to support it.  You seem to be willfully ignorant of it.  It may turn out that the universe had to be the way it is in much the same way pi had to be 3.14.etc...  No accident at all.




> On more than one occasion, Occam's Razor has been misapplied in such a way as to  support the atheist position, but if the razor is valid , it cuts for the theist. That creationists base their belief on a single premise (the existence of God) that answers the questions of the universe, is a far more simple explanation than the totality of scientific discovery which necessarily builds on the speculations of men who many times lack the ability to observe or perform repeatable, controlled experiments, yet still draw conclusions that are unsupported by scientific proof.



God as an answer does not simplify thing.  It greatly complicates it.  As I said before, if God created the Universe, who created God?  How do you know it's Yahweh and not Zeus?  Why did this god character create the universe?  Plenty of questions arise.  

Let me stop you right there.  I have a pretty good idea what your response is going to be: "Because that's what the bible says"  right?  Do you have anything like scientific proof to support that the bible is correct in these matters?  

You ask me for scientific proof, but when we get down to it, all you have is faith.



> This brings us to the second word:
> 
> 2) evidence
> 
> The testimony of hundreds of people, even thousands as to the resurrection of Jesus, coupled with the silence of those who would most benefit from disproving it, screams for the conclusion that the resurrection account is true. Likewise, the miracles He performed never received any refutation during His ministry and immediately following.



So, with a burden of proof like this, I assume you believe that extraterrestrial aliens have visited our planet in flying saucers?  That Bigfoot, the Loch Ness monster..etc are all true? 




> And you have the testimony of millions as to what Christ has done in their lives and the plain evidence of those changes in their behavior. You casually wipe all that aside, recognizing the change but denying the attested cause by those who experienced the change.



What of the testimony of millions as to what Buddha, Mohammad, Krishna, Vishnu, etc... has done in their lives and the plain evidence of those changes in their behavior?  You can casually wipe all that aside, recognizing the change but denying the attested cause by those who experienced the change.



> So, you see how far apart we are on reason and evidence.



Lightyears apart.



> While Christians can look at science and question it on the basis of what they know to be true concerning God



Don't mistake faith for knowledge.


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## pnome (Feb 10, 2009)

Israel said:


> Does matter exist?
> Where else, but in the consciousness of man?
> Does "existence" exist?
> Where else, but in the consciousness of man?
> ...



I think you might be misunderstanding the atheist position.  It is not the assertion that "God does not exist"  but rather "God almost certainly does not exist"  There is no way to prove him, thus the logical default position on the question of "Does God exists?" is "No."  Not maybe, not yes, but no.  



> I, therefore, have not come to the conclusion that God exists, I have come to the conclusion that I exist. In that conclusion is the apriori assumption of the one whose existence is self affirming and totally without initiation...mine however is, quite obviously, dependent.



Someone has been reading Descartes..


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## WTM45 (Feb 10, 2009)

Many who believe in a deity do so just as an attempted way to cover all bases, or protect their own hide from the threat of eternal torture if they do not.
If there is a deity that is omnicient, omnipresent and omnipotent, wouldn't he/she see right through that logic and fake belief?


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## gtparts (Feb 10, 2009)

> As I said before, if God created the Universe, who created God? How do you know it's Yahweh and not Zeus? Why did this god character create the universe? Plenty of questions arise.



As soon as you ask that first question, as you have in the past, you have left the scientific arena and made a spiritual inquiry. Furthermore , the question exposes your lack of spiritual understanding. It is without meaning. If the supreme being was made, then he is, by definition, not the supreme being. God, simply, is. 
For your second answer, by divine revelation. You must have missed the message.

3rd Question 





> "Why did this god character create the universe?"


   He is creative. It is His nature. He desires to be recognized by His creation and worshiped for who He is. He wanted that to be a choice, so that the praise worship, and adoration He received would have meaning. He gave us significance, so that our worship of Him would be significant.

In your belief system, you have no purpose, no significance. Your life, whatever that is, is worth nothing because it accomplishes nothing. When your existence ceases, for all purposes (practical and otherwise), it will have no value, will be absolutely meaningless, a total waste of energy and matter. Of you, nothing lasting will extend into eternity. Inanimate matter to animate matter , and back.

See how much you have to look forward to, if you are right?


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## footjunior (Feb 10, 2009)

gtparts said:


> As soon as you ask that first question, as you have in the past, you have left the scientific arena and made a spiritual inquiry.



It doesn't matter what "arena" he is in, it still stands that by introducing God you are going directly against Occam's razor. You are increasing the complexity of the scenario by introducing a complex being (which you prefer to call Yahweh) to answer the question of where the universe came from. You say that God simply _is_, but yet you cannot see that it is possible for the universe to simply _be_.



> In your belief system, you have no purpose, no significance. Your life, whatever that is, is worth nothing because it accomplishes nothing. When your existence ceases, for all purposes (practical and otherwise), it will have no value, will be absolutely meaningless, a total waste of energy and matter. Of you, nothing lasting will extend into eternity. Inanimate matter to animate matter , and back.
> 
> See how much you have to look forward to, if you are right?



I fail to see how any of this proves or disproves God. You seem to be pleading for wishful thinking over the truth. If you knew there was no God would you continue to want to believe there was just so you could pretend your life had a purpose?


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## celticfisherman (Feb 10, 2009)

Foot- You don't even have to tell anyone you are in College!!!!!!


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## footjunior (Feb 10, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Foot- You don't even have to tell anyone you are in College!!!!!!



???


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## celticfisherman (Feb 10, 2009)

One day foot you will get that. Meanwhile those that do... we are all laughing our >>>>>> off.


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## pnome (Feb 10, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> One day foot you will get that. Meanwhile those that do... we are all laughing our >>>>>> off.



I got it.


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## celticfisherman (Feb 10, 2009)

pnome said:


> I got it.



Thanks... I was afraid I was the only one laughing about this...


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## footjunior (Feb 10, 2009)

Wish someone would fill me in. I feel left out.


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## celticfisherman (Feb 10, 2009)

15 years from now you will get it. And when you do you will look us all up and laugh... Until then enjoy the fact that you don't understand it.


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## DocHoliday (Feb 14, 2009)

back to the top for more discussion.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Feb 14, 2009)

DocHoliday said:


> back to the top for more discussion.


 

You mean you don't believe all of these experts?


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