# 38 special 125gr +P



## greyhair (Oct 12, 2011)

Would you take a 20yrd broadside shot at a whitetail? Have a doe hunt this weekend, a NO centerfire rifle only stipulation. Normaly use my 54 CVA muzzleloader for this hunt with 435gr conicals. Shot this weekend and got a 3in group at 20yrds with the 38. What do you think?


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## GunslingerG20 (Oct 13, 2011)

A .38 special, even in a +P configuration is horribly inadequate for deer hunting. Sure, you CAN kill one with a .38 --- just like you CAN kill one with a .22 short or a Raven .25 --- but I wouldn't recommend it and you are almost guaranteed to NOT make a clean kill.
Are you shooting a .38 or are you using .38's in a .357??? A HOT-loaded .357 mag is the MINIMUM I would even consider for whitetail hunting. I personally prefer my hot-loaded 10mm's or a .44 mag, but that's just my personal preference. My advice would be stick with the muzzleloader if you don't have access to a more powerful handgun.

Good luck and Good hunting!!!!!


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## Rich M (Oct 14, 2011)

I would not use a 125 gr HP even on a broadside shot.  Just too much potential that it will run far enough without any blood to track...  125s are not made to penetrate, they are made to dump their energy - you hit the shoulder due to some "ooops factor" and you'll likely not see her again.

You can get 158's in .38 sp.  Those should work better - especially if a soft point or cast bullet. 

The cast bullets do a good job because they don't expand much and go all the way thru...  Shoot in the ribs and out the shoulder, the deer should fall down, shoot it again, start dragging.

Or neck shoot the deer with the 125.

I watched my uncle shoot a doe in the boiler room with a .357 mag when I was younger - she went about 30 yards.


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## greyhair (Oct 14, 2011)

Thanks for the info. I am using Rem 125sp's at +P velocity, just hate to tear up a doe with the 54 again. Have some 158hp's loaded just have not shot them to see how they do.


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## Rich M (Oct 17, 2011)

I just sighted in a .357 mag rifle with 180s, 158s, and 125s.

The 180 and 158 loads were just so close, even with 300-400 fps difference in recipes.  I'm talking 1/2 inch if I'm lucky at 100 yards.  Amazing. 

The 125s were supposed to be about 2100-2200 fps and shot 6 inches higher than the others.

I'm tossing between the 158 XTP FP at about 1800-1900 fps and the 180 XTP HP at about 1600 fps.  The 180 is heavier but HP and the 158 is FP, may go thru more easily...

2 weeks and we'll know which one I chose - until then all bets are off.

Good luck to you!  Did you get one?


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## dtala (Oct 23, 2011)

NO!


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## Big7 (Oct 23, 2011)

dtala said:


> NO!



NOT to start up some crap. BIG OLE' FAT BUT HERE!

The 38 (especially w/ +P or +P+) is plenty out to 20 yards...

Heck, I got a Beeman pellet gun that will do that inside 20 yards..

Myself.. Just cause I have one would be the .357.

I can't hold on to "the big-uns" cause I have small hands.

Same reason I can't shoot the "box gun" (Glock) 

Many folks shoot a Taurus or some other .30 carbine revolver for deer size game. deer, hog, goat.. etc..

I ain't looked lately but I (think) I remember it being on par with a 38 in same length bbl if it be a handgun or rifle
with similar length.

Long story made short:

I would have NO problem shooting a deer size animal with a 38 and the +p or +P+ is just a bonus..

I'd stay away from hollow points though.

Ideal? no. (what is?) But it will get the job done fer' sure!

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm
http://guninstructor.net/Strasborg_Tests.pdf


I couldn't find the link to what I wanted but recalling from 
memory.. Bing or Google the Strasbourg tests.

Finding:
The .357 is king among same size heart/ weight/ lung capacity.

I'm rambling now. I'll stop.


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## gtfisherman (Oct 30, 2011)

greyhair said:


> Would you take a 20yrd broadside shot at a whitetail? Have a doe hunt this weekend, a NO centerfire rifle only stipulation. Normaly use my 54 CVA muzzleloader for this hunt with 435gr conicals. Shot this weekend and got a 3in group at 20yrds with the 38. What do you think?



Without doubt I would. It's more about your ability to shoot than the caliber. Lots of deer have fallen to 22lr. And if you limit yourself to what you know you can do then go ahead. That is if it is legal where you will be. 

That is a good round and has put down a lot of bad critters in it's history. And I know a few guys walking around today who had to shoot tougher things than whitetails with them.


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## Dub (Oct 31, 2011)

dtala said:


> NO!




Total agreement.


The animals we hunt deserve a good death. 



Many better options than a 38spcl, IMHO.


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## Rich M (Nov 1, 2011)

So, you would go and drop $1,000 on a new gun, et al just to shoot a deer?

I cry fowl.  Use what you have - the .357 was the most powerful handgun for a period.  The .38 special was seen as very usable - even in war.

Use what you have, just use a heavier bullet and take a good shot.  .38 special, 158 grain soft point, and 25 yards = dead deer no matter where you are or how big it is.

Funny how rifle guys don't believe you are "respecting" a 150# deer if you don't shoot a 300 mag with 180 gr bullets.  Most guys I know of using 243s say they never had to track one because they always fall over dead.  Bigger isn't always better.


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## jack10 (Nov 3, 2011)

Dub said:


> Total agreement.
> 
> 
> The animals we hunt deserve a good death.
> ...



I agree. The worst thing about the blood sports are worrying about an animal you wounded that might suffer greatly for days due to you negligence.


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## Rich M (Nov 3, 2011)

I guess that's it - anything less than a .44 mag is not going to kill a deer - it will bounce off it's ribs and hit you in the forehead.  Pity.


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## EMC-GUN (Nov 4, 2011)

I have a bullet mold that will drop a 170gr. bullet in .358 caliber (.38 special/.357 Mag). Also have one that will drop a 190gr. wide flat nose in the same caliber. Get either one of these going around 900-1000 FPS and you will have a very dead deer. Practice practice practice and you will flatten a deer out with a  .38 special. Anyone that thinks other wise I would have to question their knowledge of guns, ballistics and skill level.


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## GunnSmokeer (Nov 4, 2011)

*slippery slope*

First of all, doesn't the law require expanding bullets?
If you have a bullet that is made to expand at handgun velocities and DOES in fact exapand, what kind of penetration will you have?

I think it's a bad idea to hunt deer with a .38 special.

People that seriously propose to do that, and those that support them and then add that anybody who disagrees must not know much about guns or can't shoot...

... are the kind of people that will cause the legislature to impose new restrictions on what kind of weapons you can hunt with.  

Seriously people, if you don't have the sense to to make good choices on your own, you're INVITING the government to take your power of choice away from you by enacting laws and regulations.

I knew a guy who could keep a 3" group at 25 yards with a Walther PPK in .32 caliber.  Should he hunt deer with that gun?   What if he limits his shots to 50 ft or 16 yards and only aims for the head or neck?


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## rvick (Nov 4, 2011)

as a tracker, i have "finished off" dozens, if not hundreds, of deer with every caliber, from 22 up. not talking head shots because hunters dont want to mess up mounts. imo, anything less than 357, MAG or SIG, is inadequate. 40 is maybe borderline.


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## EMC-GUN (Nov 4, 2011)

.22 Cal. Centerfire and above is GA law. This thread is getting pretty emotional apparently? I will chronograph some .38 loads and then do some FPS figuring.


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## SgtPat (Nov 4, 2011)

Rich M said:


> So, you would go and drop $1,000 on a new gun, et al just to shoot a deer?
> 
> I cry fowl.  Use what you have - the .357 was the most powerful handgun for a period.  The .38 special was seen as very usable - even in war.
> Use what you have, just use a heavier bullet and take a good shot.  .38 special, 158 grain soft point, and 25 yards = dead deer no matter where you are or how big it is.
> ...



So was mustard gas, but that doesn't mean you should hunt deer with it.


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## SgtPat (Nov 4, 2011)

EMC-GUN said:


> .22 Cal. Centerfire and above is GA law. This thread is getting pretty emotional apparently? I will chronograph some .38 loads and then do some FPS figuring.



Not for handguns.


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## GunnSmokeer (Nov 5, 2011)

*Is Too*



SgtPat said:


> Not for handguns.





Well, the e-regulations page for the Georgia D.N.R. website says that IS the legal requirement for either rifle or handgun hunting for deer or bear.

QUOTE:  _Deer & Bear Firearms

•Modern Rifles and Handguns: Centerfire Only, .22-cal. or larger with expanding bullets. 

•Shotguns: 20-gauge or larger loaded with slugs or buckshot. Buckshot is not allowed on WMAs, unless otherwise specified.

•Muzzleloaders: .44-cal. or larger, or muzzleloading shotguns 20 gauge or larger. Scopes are legal.

•Primitive Weapons: Legal weapons during primitive weapons season include crossbows, bow and arrow, and muzzleloading firearm. Scopes are legal. _

But by this legal standard, a lot of small caliber pocket pistols would be legal to hunt deer with.  We're not just talking about finishing off a wounded deer at point-blank range.  Actual hunting from a distance, maybe across a corn field from a blind. It's legal to take that shot with a Kel-Tec 9mm with a 3" barrel and a long heavy double action trigger.  It's legal to take the shot with a Baby Browning .25 acp with a Winchester 50-grain hollowpoint.
I hope people hold themselves to a higher standard than what is "legal" under the law as it exists today.


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## redlevel (Nov 5, 2011)

EMC-GUN said:


> I have a bullet mold that will drop a 170gr. bullet in .358 caliber (.38 special/.357 Mag). Also have one that will frop a 190gr. wide flat nose in the same caliber. Get either one of these going around 900-1000 FPS and you will have a very dead deer. Practice practice practice and you will flatten a deer out with a  .38 special. Anyone that thinks other wise I would have to question their knowledge of guns, ballistics and skill level.



In the first place, the OP didn't ask about 170-190 grain bullets.  He asked about 125 grain +p, which in anything other than Buffalo Bore or some other specialty load is an anemic load.  The specialty loads are still going to run around 300 ft. lbs. energy.
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=109

In the second place, you show me how to drive a 190 grain bullet at 1000fps from anything other than an N-frame S&W chambered for .357, or a Freedom Arms or some such.  You will shoot-loose most medium frame guns _chambered for .38 special_ if you use loads like that, that is if you don't have a catastrophic failure before that happens.   I would feel pretty good about taking a 20-50 yard shot with 190 grains @ 1000fps in a proper firearm, but that wasn't the question, was it?

In the third place, your last statement shows a degree of arrogance and misguided superiority unmatched by anything I have seen before on this forum.  You are providing a recipe for something worse than losing a wounded deer.


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## SgtPat (Nov 5, 2011)

GunnSmokeer said:


> Well, the e-regulations page for the Georgia D.N.R. website says that IS the legal requirement for either rifle or handgun hunting for deer or bear.
> 
> QUOTE:  _Deer & Bear Firearms
> 
> ...



I stand corrected and agree with your logic also.


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