# Chromosome 2 and chromosome 21 and their factors in evolution



## oldfella1962 (Jul 23, 2022)

PLEASE DON'T BE OFFENDED!!!! I am NOT - I repeat* NOT *trying to link chimps with Down Syndrome. I'm just trying to illustrate why a slight genetic shift could result in chimps being a 98 percent genetic match with humans. Let me lay out my reasoning. Believers & non-believers alike, feel free to pick holes in my reasoning using whatever world view you subscribe to. I might make sense, or I might be full of "it". Here we go:

1. Since the human genome has now been mapped, genetic studies & facts are very detailed and accurate.
2. One in 700 human embryos have Down Syndrome (of varying types & degrees) as a result of chromosome 21 in the 46 chromosomes humans should have.
3. Is it a big stretch to think that one in 700 (or any number I guess) common ancestors to chimps/humans could have one or more slightly altered chromosomes
    that resulted in eventual evolution into slightly different - but separate - species? We can currently study the specific chromosome - chromosome 2 - that is fused 
    together in humans but is not in chimps, and one other chromosome that is slightly less clear to science so far. 
4. Bottom line, IMHO it's obvious that genes are complicated and fragile to some degree, yet very adaptable at the same time. Genetic changes are absolutely
    necessary to produce new species to deal with changing environments, but because of their very nature (biological) they can result in non-beneficial changes
    such as Down Syndrome in humans.

Evolution: Library: Human Chromosome 2 (pbs.org) 

Facts about Down Syndrome | CDC


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 23, 2022)

I've seen some people point to bad change as proof evolution does not exist. I guess they think because evolution is suppose to always make a species better that nothing can ever go wrong.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jul 23, 2022)

can you name one mutated gene that results in a better or superior being?


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 24, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> can you name one mutated gene that results in a better or superior being?



It would really depend on your definition of "better" or "superior". Are humans "superior" to chimps? IMHO no, they are just different. The thing is evolution is constantly ongoing. 99 percent of the all the species that ever existed are extinct now.
Humans are part of that 1 percent alive on Earth today that will be part of the 99 percent of extinct species millions of years in the future. As environments change, new species evolve as older species die out.

It's amazing how this whole process is enabled by a double helix adaptable "blueprint" of basic chemicals. From bacteria to squirrels to dinosaurs to kangaroos to humans and almost every other living thing (some simple life is RNA based) it's all the same process.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 24, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> I've seen some people point to bad change as proof evolution does not exist. I guess they think because evolution is suppose to always make a species better that nothing can ever go wrong.


 
Plenty can go wrong! But much more often than not, the process works as advertised. 
Even when it works it doesn't work perfectly, but it works good enough.


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## ambush80 (Jul 24, 2022)

I saw an interesting experiment. Several people were given 3 lumps of wax and told to shape them in any way they wanted but they didn't get to see what the other sculptors were making.  When they were done, the shapes were collected and exposed to some condition that was unknown to the sculptors.  Their two best "performing" shapes were given back to the sculptors and they were told to make three more shapes. The procedure was done several times and after the last trial, the sculptors were brought together so they could see what the others had made.  The shapes they made were all very similar because unbeknownst to them, the condition that the objects were exposed to was that they were thrown from a catapult. 

When the sculptors started, they made all kinds of shapes, long ones, thin ones, disc ones, ones with appendages, and so on.  As the most successful shapes came back, the sculptors made shapes more like solid lumps.  In the end all the shapes they made were mostly spherical. 

In the case of evolutionary biology, the "sculptor" is genetic variation.  I'm sure we can all agree that some people are born with bigger lungs than others.  We can imagine some environmental condition arising where bigger lungs might be advantageous, over time, that trait would reproduce.  Keep pushing the condition so that it exerts more influence over many, many generations and you can imagine that people's bodies might start to look different after a while.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jul 24, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> It would really depend on your definition of "better" or "superior". Are humans "superior" to chimps? IMHO no, they are just different. The thing is evolution is constantly ongoing. 99 percent of the all the species that ever existed are extinct now.
> Humans are part of that 1 percent alive on Earth today that will be part of the 99 percent of extinct species millions of years in the future. As environments change, new species evolve as older species die out.
> 
> It's amazing how this whole process is enabled by a double helix adaptable "blueprint" of basic chemicals. From bacteria to squirrels to dinosaurs to kangaroos to humans and almost every other living thing (some simple life is RNA based) it's all the same process.



humans are not superior to the apes....  


OK


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 24, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> humans are not superior to the apes....
> 
> 
> OK



Please, tell us how/why humans are superior to apes. BTW technically humans _*are *_apes so this should be interesting!

Humans are apes – ‘Great Apes’ - The Australian Museum

Ape - Wikipedia

"The family Hominidae (_hominids_), the great apes, include four genera comprising three extant species of orangutans and their subspecies, two extant species of gorillas and their subspecies, two extant species of panins (bonobos and chimpanzees) and their subspecies, and humans in a single extant subspecies.[3][a][4][5]"


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 24, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I saw an interesting experiment. Several people were given 3 lumps of wax and told to shape them in any way they wanted but they didn't get to see what the other sculptors were making.  When they were done, the shapes were collected and exposed to some condition that was unknown to the sculptors.  Their two best "performing" shapes were given back to the sculptors and they were told to make three more shapes. The procedure was done several times and after the last trial, the sculptors were brought together so they could see what the others had made.  The shapes they made were all very similar because unbeknownst to them, the condition that the objects were exposed to was that they were thrown from a catapult.
> 
> When the sculptors started, they made all kinds of shapes, long ones, thin ones, disc ones, ones with appendages, and so on.  As the most successful shapes came back, the sculptors made shapes more like solid lumps.  In the end all the shapes they made were mostly spherical.
> 
> In the case of evolutionary biology, the "sculptor" is genetic variation.  I'm sure we can all agree that some people are born with bigger lungs than others.  We can imagine some environmental condition arising where bigger lungs might be advantageous, over time, that trait would reproduce.  Keep pushing the condition so that it exerts more influence over many, many generations and you can imagine that people's bodies might start to look different after a while.



Good assessment of the process!


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## ambush80 (Jul 26, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> can you name one mutated gene that results in a better or superior being?



Good question.  I Googled it.

https://www.sciencealert.com/8-genetic-mutations-that-can-give-you-superpowers

https://bigthink.com/surprising-science/evolution-is-still-happening-beneficial-mutations-in-humans/

https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evo-news/the-mutations-that-make-us-human/


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 26, 2022)

Thanks ambush! The links are in my favorites for my reading pleasure when I get up from my nap.


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## Spotlite (Jul 27, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Please, tell us how/why humans are superior to apes. BTW technically humans _*are *_apes so this should be interesting!
> 
> Humans are apes – ‘Great Apes’ - The Australian Museum
> 
> ...



If my cousin Joe got in a fight with your cousin ape in the parking lot……who’s getting tranquilized?

Humans are superior to animals because of our abilities and mental capacities to care for animals with empathy, compassion, etc.

Apes ain’t going to do what’s in the best interest of a horse.

You may chose to eat a banana with them at the family reunion, but I’m sticking to buying a bag of feed to throw over the fence for them ?


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## 660griz (Jul 27, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> can you name one mutated gene that results in a better or superior being?


If ya like milk.  All humans can digest milk in infancy. But the ability to do so as an adult developed fairly recently, likely in the past 6000 years.
Capn Crunch and Water? Bleck!


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 27, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> If my cousin Joe got in a fight with your cousin ape in the parking lot……who’s getting tranquilized?
> 
> Humans are superior to animals because of our abilities and mental capacities to care for animals with empathy, compassion, etc.
> 
> ...



So it's a matter of perspective then. From a horse's perspective, a human is superior to an ape - an ape _other_ than a homo sapiens of course. 

That said if was up to me and your cousin Joe is a career violent criminal, your cousin Joe would get tranquilized!


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## Spotlite (Jul 27, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> So it's a matter of perspective then. From a horse's perspective, a human is superior to an ape - an ape _other_ than a homo sapiens of course.
> 
> That said if was up to me and your cousin Joe is a career violent criminal, your cousin Joe would get tranquilized!


Lol yea he needs tranquillizing!!

Perspective? I wouldn’t think it’s just from the horses perspective. Our learning / mental capacities, decision making abilities, all coupled with our emotions make us superior to all animals. Given that there are some really smart and affectionate animals, the only animal possessing the ability to have “it all” is the human. 

A dog isn’t going to help a turtle across the road. A chicken isn’t going to help an elderly lady across the road.


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## WaltL1 (Jul 27, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> If my cousin Joe got in a fight with your cousin ape in the parking lot……who’s getting tranquilized?
> 
> Humans are superior to animals because of our abilities and mental capacities to care for animals with empathy, compassion, etc.
> 
> ...





> Humans are superior to animals because of our abilities and mental capacities to care for animals with empathy, compassion, etc.


Lots of videos of animals treating animals seemingly with those same qualities.
Sometimes animals rip other animals to shreds.
Just like us.


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## WaltL1 (Jul 27, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Lol yea he needs tranquillizing!!
> 
> Perspective? I wouldn’t think it’s just from the horses perspective. Our learning / mental capacities, decision making abilities, all coupled with our emotions make us superior to all animals. Given that there are some really smart and affectionate animals, the only animal possessing the ability to have “it all” is the human.
> 
> A dog isn’t going to help a turtle across the road. A chicken isn’t going to help an elderly lady across the road.





> the only animal possessing the ability to have “it all” is the human.


"Having it all" would also include creating mass pollution, raping the land, literally garbage floating around in our atmosphere, killing just to kill and on and on.
Not sure thats "superior".


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 27, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Lol yea he needs tranquillizing!!
> 
> Perspective? I wouldn’t think it’s just from the horses perspective. Our learning / mental capacities, decision making abilities, all coupled with our emotions make us superior to all animals. Given that there are some really smart and affectionate animals, the only animal possessing the ability to have “it all” is the human.
> 
> A dog isn’t going to help a turtle across the road. A chicken isn’t going to help an elderly lady across the road.



Humans "have it all?"  Mass genocide? Check! Polluting our planet because of our greed and convenience? Check! Driving other species to extinction, often for our vanity & pleasure? Check! Oh yeah, humans are "the full package" all right! 

As far as a chicken helping an elderly woman across the road, a chicken won't deliberately drive their vehicle over an elderly woman then stop to steal her purse - stupid useless chickens! 

Thanks walt for taking the words out of my mouth!   A chicken or dog never did that to me BTW.


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## Spotlite (Jul 27, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Humans "have it all?"  Mass genocide? Check! Polluting our planet because of our greed and convenience? Check! Driving other species to extinction, often for our vanity & pleasure? Check! Oh yeah, humans are "the full package" all right!
> 
> As far as a chicken helping an elderly woman across the road, a chicken won't deliberately drive their vehicle over an elderly woman then stop to steal her purse - stupid useless chickens!
> 
> Thanks walt for taking the words out of my mouth!   A chicken or dog never did that to me BTW.





WaltL1 said:


> "Having it all" would also include creating mass pollution, raping the land, literally garbage floating around in our atmosphere, killing just to kill and on and on.
> Not sure thats "superior".


Key was  “possessing the ability”. We can either be educated beyond our intelligence, or ignorant as a box of crayons, or level headed. 

A coyote will eat it’s rabbits into extinction, the human will put a season and limits on it. Some humans will act like coyotes, though.


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## Spotlite (Jul 27, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Lots of videos of animals treating animals seemingly with those same qualities.
> Sometimes animals rip other animals to shreds.
> Just like us.


No doubt there are some smart animals. There are some compassionate animals. We have some animals that display “human qualities” at times. We have some humans that display animal qualities.

But, the animal isn’t going to make decisions  that are in the best interest to their own survival. They’ll drag themselves through dirt with open wounds. Of course there’s the let nature take its course option. That’s what separates humans and animals. We possess the empathy and compassion at a different level. Most humans aren’t ok watching a man or a dog suffer. A dog might lick you a few times but he ain’t worried about getting you any help.

With the exception of some - humans are the only “animal” that places value on life. I love my dog enough to get him help. He doesn’t love himself enough to go take his worm meds on his own.


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## WaltL1 (Jul 27, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> No doubt there are some smart animals. There are some compassionate animals. We have some animals that display “human qualities” at times. We have some humans that display animal qualities.
> 
> But, the animal isn’t going to make decisions  that are in the best interest to their own survival. They’ll drag themselves through dirt with open wounds. Of course there’s the let nature take its course option. That’s what separates humans and animals. We possess the empathy and compassion at a different level. Most humans aren’t ok watching a man or a dog suffer. A dog might lick you a few times but he ain’t worried about getting you any help.





> A dog might lick you a few times but he ain’t worried about getting you any help.


Apparently you never watched Lassie. He went and got help every show


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## Spotlite (Jul 27, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Apparently you never watched Lassie. He went and got help every show


Well, there are exceptions lol. 

When I broke my foot my dog just looked around and chased squirrels lol ?


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## Spotlite (Jul 27, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Humans "have it all?"  Mass genocide? Check! Polluting our planet because of our greed and convenience? Check! Driving other species to extinction, often for our vanity & pleasure? Check! Oh yeah, humans are "the full package" all right!
> 
> As far as a chicken helping an elderly woman across the road, a chicken won't deliberately drive their vehicle over an elderly woman then stop to steal her purse - stupid useless chickens!
> 
> Thanks walt for taking the words out of my mouth!   A chicken or dog never did that to me BTW.


Most humans won’t lay around in their waste. Check


> As far as a chicken helping an elderly woman across the road, a chicken won't deliberately drive their vehicle over an elderly woman
> 
> Thanks walt for taking the words out of my mouth!   A chicken or dog never did that to me BTW.


Something tells me a chicken ran over you and you’re still hurt by it lol ?

Joking. Seriously, though, sometimes I wished we could act like animals on this “woke” generation.


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## JustUs4All (Jul 27, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Well, there are exceptions lol.
> 
> When I broke my foot my dog just looked around and chased squirrels lol ?



You should find a better dog.  LOL


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 27, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Apparently you never watched Lassie. He went and got help every show



If the humans were smart enough to not fall into the old wells, Lassie wouldn't have to get help!


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 27, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Most humans won’t lay around in their waste. Check
> 
> Something tells me a chicken ran over you and you’re still hurt by it lol ?
> 
> Joking. Seriously, though, sometimes I wished we could act like animals on this “woke” generation.



Then we would be just as bad as the woke generation. The woke are intolerant "useful idiots" for the left but conservatives have to be the adults in the room to keep them in check.


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## Spotlite (Jul 27, 2022)

JustUs4All said:


> You should find a better dog.  LOL


I know right lol ?


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## Spotlite (Jul 27, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Then we would be just as bad as the woke generation. The woke are intolerant "useful idiots" for the left but conservatives have to be the adults in the room to keep them in check.


Kind of like the in animals and humans, huh ?


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 27, 2022)

Seriously though, every species has the abilities it needs to survive & thrive in its own environment. Thus, no species is "superior" to another, and no species can survive in every single environment. Humans have big brains, and we can survive in many different environments, but not _every _environment. Where we can't survive other simpler species can survive and thrive. 

And eventually us "superior" humans will be extinct just like every single other species has gone - or will go - extinct. That is a 100 percent guarantee, with no exceptions.


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## bullethead (Jul 27, 2022)

https://www.pbs.org/video/koko-gorilla-who-talks-kokos-kitten/


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 27, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Kind of like the in animals and humans, huh ?


 
Our time is coming! On our way to becoming extinct there will be PLENTY of predators who won't be "in check".   Now factor in viruses, bacteria, and other microbes that will hammer us when our civilization implodes - which it will eventually - along with the medical science to protect our diminishing species from those threats. Glad I won't be around to see that!


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## Spotlite (Jul 27, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Our time is coming! On our way to becoming extinct there will be PLENTY of predators who won't be "in check".   Now factor in viruses, bacteria, and other microbes that will hammer us when our civilization implodes - which it will eventually - along with the medical science to protect our diminishing species from those threats. Glad I won't be around to see that!


I hope I’m hung up on 1,000 lb tuna 150 miles off shore when show starts.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 27, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I hope I’m hung up on 1,000 lb tuna 150 miles off shore when show starts.


 
Everyone on GON will be six feet under by the time that happens, unless WWIII hits and it goes nuclear/biological or something crazy like that.


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## ky55 (Jul 27, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Apparently you never watched Lassie. He went and got help every show



Come quick!
Timmy’s in the well!!
?


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 27, 2022)

ky55 said:


> Come quick!
> Timmy’s in the well!!
> ?



High-capacity wells are nothing but trouble!


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## WaltL1 (Jul 27, 2022)

ky55 said:


> Come quick!
> Timmy’s in the well!!
> ?


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## Spotlite (Jul 28, 2022)

bullethead said:


> https://www.pbs.org/video/koko-gorilla-who-talks-kokos-kitten/


I see these stories the same as hearing the Narrator at the dolphin show tell us that Flipper says hey when he flaps his fin, or me telling you that Tater, my dog, says hey when he sticks his left paw up every tine I say Tater wave. I bet he had 100 biscuits to get him there - repetition plus treat = training.

Animals are teachable, trainable and extremely smart but what separates us is Koko might actually love that kitten as much my dog loves (prefers) to tote an old flip flop instead of a stick……but Koko isn’t going to know to give the kitten some cat food, a rat, or etc., instead of an orange or banana.

What’d be really fascinating is to get Koko to tell Lassie that Timmy done fell in the well again.


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## bullethead (Jul 28, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I see these stories the same as hearing the Narrator at the dolphin show tell us that Flipper says hey when he flaps his fin, or me telling you that Tater, my dog, says hey when he sticks his left paw up every tine I say Tater wave. I bet he had 100 biscuits to get him there - repetition plus treat = training.
> 
> Animals are teachable, trainable and extremely smart but what separates us is Koko might actually love that kitten as much my dog loves (prefers) to tote an old flip flop instead of a stick……but Koko isn’t going to know to give the kitten some cat food, a rat, or etc., instead of an orange or banana.
> 
> What’d be really fascinating is to get Koko to tell Lassie that Timmy done fell in the well again.


Your extent to watching Koko is obviously the now two links I've posted about her in two different threads.
Communicating through sign language where Koko expresses her feeling, asks for things, suggests things, and converses as a person would expressing themselves is not a trick. Especially when having conversations with others who are not her tricks teacher.
I would suggest watching the hours of videos about her found on youtube before you submit your thesis on behavioral capabilities of apes and gorillas. You may want to erase some things. Let me know when your dog uses the same sign language that humans do. To use it the mind must be capable of learning it, understanding it and then also capable of expressing it. 
Koko "speaks" fitting to the occasion. She doesn't just throw out random words that have nothing to do with what is going on. 
In this case it isn't Polly want a cracker.
Polly can tell you that she wants a Ritz with PB&J on it, strawberry jelly not grape and ask you to bring Robin Williams some too because they are having a conversation or else she'd get it herself. No where near dangling a banana in front of her and commanding her to sit, give you her hand , nor is it a trainer telling you what Koko is saying..Koko tells you herself.

These things are hard to watch for some people because they go against the grain of another set of beliefs of which there is direct evidence that refutes those beliefs. 

Thr original Planet of the Apes with Heston sends a good message in a role reversal. Watch that again.
I've seen it 100 times but never got the irony untl later in life.


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## Spotlite (Jul 28, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Your extent to watching Koko is obviously the now two links I've posted about her in two different threads.
> Communicating through sign language where Koko expresses her feeling, asks for things, suggests things, and converses as a person would expressing themselves is not a trick. Especially when having conversations with others who are not her tricks teacher.
> I would suggest watching the hours of videos about her found on youtube before you submit your thesis on behavioral capabilities of apes and gorillas. You may want to erase some things. Let me know when your dog uses the same sign language that humans do. To use it the mind must be capable of learning it, understanding it and then also capable of expressing it.
> Koko "speaks" fitting to the occasion. She doesn't just throw out random words that have nothing to do with what is going on.
> ...


It doesn’t go against my beliefs. I’m just saying I’m skeptical because it’s a person telling us what Koko is saying. I see that no different than than the narrator saying Flipper says…..

All I’m saying is Koko is smart, but does Koko  really know what all of those sign language talk means or just knows what Koko is taught? My dog can pout but not because he’s sad.


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## bullethead (Jul 28, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> It doesn’t go against my beliefs. I’m just saying I’m skeptical because it’s a person telling us what Koko is saying. I see that no different than than the narrator saying Flipper says…..
> 
> All I’m saying is Koko is smart, but does Koko  really know what all of those sign language talk means or just knows what Koko is taught? My dog can pout but not because he’s sad.


Id be more concerned that the Gorilla can understand and speak a human  devised form of language and you can't!  Not knocking you for not knowing sign language but I am wondering how you can question something that you don't know anything about.

How would Koko or anything respond on point if they didn't understand what was asked, didn't have the brain capability to think and didn't have the capability to reply?
Koko doesn't reply with one word that has nothing to do with what is said or asked. She uses multiple words that all have to do with making of a sentence that conforms to the topic at hand.
If you want to watch it and see parlor tricks you are going to see parlor tricks because that is what you want to see. There isn't any more tangible evidence for the capabilities of our close cousins than that.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 28, 2022)

I would be willing to bet that Koko (or other gorillas) could learn - on its own, without coaching - that its kitten friend does indeed prefer cat food to fruit, and when given a choice the gorilla would give the kitten something the kitten prefers, just through observing the kitten's behavior & reactions.

Evolution is very gradual. Comparing a gorilla's intelligence to that of a human is a huuuuuuge evolutionary jump. The difference is obvious. But if we could see into the past and measure the growing intelligence of every ape species from homo sapiens, Neanderthals, gorillas, chimps, bonobos, etcetera working backwards through the evolutionary branches, we could see how intelligence grows & changes over time.
Comparing a homo erectus in year C to its descendant/relative 500 years later in year F we might find slightly but measurably more intelligence. It just would not be blatantly obvious as if we compared the year C homo _erectus_ to a year Z homo _sapiens_.

In other words, even someone like myself who isn't an expert on cars can tell a Ford Model T from a 2022 Chevrolet Camaro and expect to see different levels of performance from the two. These are two cars from two different branches of car evolution, with one car being an obviously advanced model. But I can't tell the difference between a Ford Model A from a Ford Model T, although there are slight improvements and differences that an expert could point out to me.

Changes are_ gradual_ and can only occur as fast as a species can reproduce/make slightly modified "upgrades" that are brought about by adapting to a changing environment, which is the stimulus. This rate then can vary somewhat depending on the stimulus forcing the genetic/evolutionary change.

Bottom line if we could measure & demonstrate the growing intelligence of every link along the chain of human evolution (other than skulls with differing brain capacity) back to the common ancestor of all apes we would see that there is no "defining moment" of when the first human AKA homo sapiens appeared.
The first human didn't just pop out of a non-human. Genes can't change that fast.

I think it would be great if we had a time machine and the very human writers of The Bible could be taught about genetics and the process of gradual genetic change over very long timespans, or even taught about the science in general. That would be an interesting concept for a story!


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## Spotlite (Jul 28, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Id be more concerned that the Gorilla can understand and speak a human  devised form of language and you can't!  Not knocking you for not knowing sign language but I am wondering how you can question something that you don't know anything about.
> 
> How would Koko or anything respond on point if they didn't understand what was asked, didn't have the brain capability to think and didn't have the capability to reply?
> Koko doesn't reply with one word that has nothing to do with what is said or asked. She uses multiple words that all have to do with making of a sentence that conforms to the topic at hand.
> If you want to watch it and see parlor tricks you are going to see parlor tricks because that is what you want to see. There isn't any more tangible evidence for the capabilities of our close cousins than that.


I definitely think it’s fascinating. I’ve watched a few of those. Pretty neat. Capable of learning, most definitely. I just don’t know if they understand what they learned is all I’m saying.


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## Spotlite (Jul 28, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Id be more concerned that the Gorilla can understand and speak a human  devised form of language and you can't!  Not knocking you for not knowing sign language but I am wondering how you can question something that you don't know anything about.
> 
> How would Koko or anything respond on point if they didn't understand what was asked, didn't have the brain capability to think and didn't have the capability to reply?
> Koko doesn't reply with one word that has nothing to do with what is said or asked. She uses multiple words that all have to do with making of a sentence that conforms to the topic at hand.
> If you want to watch it and see parlor tricks you are going to see parlor tricks because that is what you want to see. There isn't any more tangible evidence for the capabilities of our close cousins than that.


Ha just caught that but I did learn sign language. I have a deaf cousin, he taught me. I’m also learning Spanish, my daughter in law is Spanish so she’s teaching me. What I’m questioning is the repetitious / reward tactic. Yea I know to find / do this when I hear and see that, but do I even know what it means.

Although I’m skeptical, I’m not closed minded. Found this.

https://animals.howstuffworks.com/animal-facts/can-animals-understand-human-language.htm


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