# Ricky Gervais quote



## 660griz (Sep 21, 2017)

I was watching "Hot Ones" on youtube. Funny stuff if yall ever get a chance to watch. Various celebrities eat increasingly hot wings.

Any hoodle, Ricky Gervais was talking about atheism, while most of what he said has been said before, he did have one quote that made me think.


" If you took every holy book, every holy book there’s ever been, every religious book, every bit of spirituality, and hid them or destroyed them… then you took every science book and destroyed that, in a thousand years’ time, those science books would be back exactly the same, because the tests would always turn out the same.

Those religious books would either never exist or they’d be totally different, because there’s no test."

So, what do ya think?


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## hummerpoo (Sep 21, 2017)

Absurd; in that there is no test for the proposition, rendering it baseless within the parameters it purports to promote.


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## centerpin fan (Sep 21, 2017)

660griz said:


> " If you took every holy book, every holy book there’s ever been, every religious book, every bit of spirituality, and hid them or destroyed them… then you took every science book and destroyed that, in a thousand years’ time, those science books would be back exactly the same, because the tests would always turn out the same.
> 
> Those religious books would either never exist or they’d be totally different, because there’s no test."
> 
> So, what do ya think?



I'd say the exact opposite is true.  Justin Martyr read the same scriptures in the 2nd century that I'm reading today.  OTOH, what science book today is the same as one from a hundred years ago?  

What's the current status of Pluto?  Planet?  Not a planet?  I really don't know.  Astronomers keep changing their minds.


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## bullethead (Sep 21, 2017)

centerpin fan said:


> I'd say the exact opposite is true.  Justin Martyr read the same scriptures in the 2nd century that I'm reading today.  OTOH, what science book today is the same as one from a hundred years ago?
> 
> What's the current status of Pluto?  Planet?  Not a planet?  I really don't know.  Astronomers keep changing their minds.



I think what Gervais meant was that if all those books went missing and so did all the memories of each, that while science would start from scratch it would eventually end up taking the same directions and eventually end up where it is now ...religion would start from scratch and not take the same directions it has taken and not end up where it is now.
It would be much less likely that a god would step in and give us the same information that existed previously.


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## bullethead (Sep 21, 2017)

centerpin fan said:


> I'd say the exact opposite is true.  Justin Martyr read the same scriptures in the 2nd century that I'm reading today.  OTOH, what science book today is the same as one from a hundred years ago?
> 
> What's the current status of Pluto?  Planet?  Not a planet?  I really don't know.  Astronomers keep changing their minds.


They were Memoirs to Martyr. Not quite scripture yet.


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## welderguy (Sep 21, 2017)

Still trying to figure out how eating hot wings led to talking about atheism.

But, as far as the attempt to wipe out all traces of religion from the earth, that's been tried before, with a vengeance.
I'm pretty sure God's word will live forever, even when the earth no longer exists, due to divine preservation.


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## 660griz (Sep 21, 2017)

bullethead said:


> I think what Gervais meant was that if all those books went missing and so did all the memories of each, that while science would start from scratch it would eventually end up taking the same directions and eventually end up where it is now ...religion would start from scratch and not take the same directions it has taken and not end up where it is now.
> It would be much less likely that a god would step in and give us the same information that existed previously.



Yes. That is what he meant.


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## 660griz (Sep 21, 2017)

centerpin fan said:


> I'd say the exact opposite is true.  Justin Martyr read the same scriptures in the 2nd century that I'm reading today.


 How do you know that?

Lk 4:8

KJV-Get thee behind me, Satan.

NIV-OMITTED

NASB-OMITTED



> OTOH, what science book today is the same as one from a hundred years ago?


  So you are saying science would totally change in the future but, God would give the exact same message to some men and the book would be recreated?



> What's the current status of Pluto?  Planet?  Not a planet?  I really don't know.  Astronomers keep changing their minds.



Kinda like interpretations of scripture. 
I am going with planet. Or, the new term used by some, dwarf planet.


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## bullethead (Sep 21, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Still trying to figure out how eating hot wings led to talking about atheism.
> 
> But, as far as the attempt to wipe out all traces of religion from the earth, that's been tried before, with a vengeance.
> I'm pretty sure God's word will live forever, even when the earth no longer exists, due to divine preservation.


Nobody....NOBODY mentioned an attempt to wipe out all traces of religion. NOOOBODY.
It was a "If things were different, what if" scenario. Food for brain function. A conversation starter. 

Give us the examples of it being tried before though. I am deeply interested in you sharing your research and knowledge.


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## centerpin fan (Sep 21, 2017)

bullethead said:


> I think what Gervais meant was that if all those books went missing and so did all the memories of each, that while science would start from scratch it would eventually end up taking the same directions and eventually end up where it is now ...religion would start from scratch and not take the same directions it has taken and not end up where it is now.
> It would be much less likely that a god would step in and give us the same information that existed previously.





660griz said:


> Yes. That is what he meant.



In that case, I would say RG believes all holy books are merely products of men (which is the standard AA position around these parts.)

If they were products of men, I would probably agree with him.  However, I believe the Bible was inspired by God, and His ways are unchangeable.


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## centerpin fan (Sep 21, 2017)

660griz said:


> How do you know that?
> 
> Lk 4:8
> 
> ...



See here and note the first footnote:

http://biblehub.com/library/justin/...n/chapter_xv_what_christ_himself_taught.htm#1


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## bullethead (Sep 21, 2017)

660griz said:


> Yes. That is what he meant.



Science uses the means available to it at the time and is constantly checking and rechecking it's results as new means become available. Science is willing to change its conclusions if new information and methods becomes available to test things in new ways.

Religion seems to based off of the superstitions of the people and regions of the times it is written in. About the only thing that constantly changes is the excuses madr by its followers who stand by the beliefs of cultures that are thousands of years old.

I am confident that new and entirely different "gods" would be invented and worshipped if we all woke up tomorrow and all previous religions and knowledge of those religions were somehow erased.
I am also confident that miracles would only take place where technology to record them does not exist.


Side note,  I don't know if anyone ever saw the South Park episode about John Smith and how the Mormon religion got started. 
It obviously isn't an accurate history lesson but it  does a good job of highlighting the ridiculousness and gullibility of people.....and their willingness to go along with "leaders" instead of evidence.


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## welderguy (Sep 21, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Nobody....NOBODY mentioned an attempt to wipe out all traces of religion. NOOOBODY.
> It was a "If things were different, what if" scenario. Food for brain function. A conversation starter.
> 
> Give us the examples of it being tried before though. I am deeply interested in you sharing your research and knowledge.



" If you took every holy book, every holy book there’s ever been, every religious book, every bit of spirituality, and hid them or destroyed them…"

Maybe I'm wrong but I think if you "destroyed every bit of spirituality", you will have successfully wiped out all traces of religion.


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## bullethead (Sep 21, 2017)

centerpin fan said:


> In that case, I would say RG believes all holy books are merely products of men (which is the standard AA position around these parts.)
> 
> If they were products of men, I would probably agree with him.  However, I believe the Bible was inspired by God, and His ways are unchangeable.



Ok, so if all memories and traces of Christianity was somehow erased with a big shake of the Etch-O-Sketch....No no, even more believable an asteriod hits the earth and the fires and destruction wipe out all tangible books and carvings and statues of every single religion and there were no people left that knew anything about the religions except for a handful of survivors that literally are clueless to religion.....is your god gonna come visit them and set them straight? Will your god "inspire" a handful of them so that they write the new stories the same way as the ones that were lost?
Or
Is it possible that due to human nature they may eventually come up with their own god(s) and stories and ways of who and how to worship?


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## bullethead (Sep 21, 2017)

welderguy said:


> " If you took every holy book, every holy book there’s ever been, every religious book, every bit of spirituality, and hid them or destroyed them…"
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong but I think if you "destroyed every bit of spirituality", you will have successfully wiped out all traces of religion.



It was a Hypothetical question in order to stimulate thought and conversation.

Now about those attempts that have been tried before and failed......


I know of a time when the Christian Church attempted to destroy any and every morsel of writings and people who did not agree with the stories that they wanted told. 
Is this what you are talking about?


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## welderguy (Sep 21, 2017)

bullethead said:


> It was a Hypothetical question in order to stimulate thought and conversation.
> 
> Now about those attempts that have been tried before and failed......
> 
> ...



Antichrist.
It's been in the world since Jesus' ministry.


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## bullethead (Sep 21, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Antichrist.
> It's been in the world since Jesus' ministry.



Oh I thought you were going to talk about reality.
You got me again


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## welderguy (Sep 21, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Oh I thought you were going to talk about reality.
> You got me again



Are you antichrist?


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## bullethead (Sep 21, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Are you antichrist?



I don't play dress up at Comic-Con so No.

I thought you were of the elect, part of the club, special....didnt you get the  Antichrist newsletter?
You better pay your past dues. 

I am still waiting for your examples of all the attempts to destroy the religous books.

Saturday morning cartoon plots and characters can stay out of this answer.


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## welderguy (Sep 21, 2017)

bullethead said:


> I don't play dress up at Comic-Con so No.
> 
> I thought you were of the elect, part of the club, special....didnt you get the  Antichrist newsletter?
> You better pay your past dues.
> ...



The comic bit's real funny.

My point is that it's been an ongoing thing since Jesus walked on Earth.
And the times that the hardest persecutions were going on were actually the times when the word spread the fastest. It has never been in danger of being stamped out, no matter how voracious the attempts, because it only served to make it thrive more.


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## Israel (Sep 22, 2017)

I think I've mentioned this. As a child...maybe 5, 6, or 7 I watched ants marching in file across a sidewalk. I thought "they have no idea" (and yes, I concede I can be wrong about ants) "They have no idea about cars, and people, houses and big buildings...all this stuff going on all around them...that I could at any moment squish them all in their oblivion" (And as precocious as I may have been, I'm pretty sure the word "oblivion" really wasn't in mind, then) 

But, anyway, they gave no indication of even knowing I was there, but I was acutely aware that (to me, at least) my awareness so far exceeded theirs, at least of the things "in the world" that I mused about it. "How could someone, how would someone (if it were possible)...make them "aware"?

It seemed plain, one would have to become an ant to not scare them off, to be able to approach them as "ant"...and in their ant language try to find ways and words to try to get them to see things...that their words and ways really had no provision for. I still think about it occasionally, how to get "ant mind" to open up.

But then I remember, I'm just one of them. And I am not the Maker of ants.


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## bullethead (Sep 22, 2017)

welderguy said:


> The comic bit's real funny.
> 
> My point is that it's been an ongoing thing since Jesus walked on Earth.
> And the times that the hardest persecutions were going on were actually the times when the word spread the fastest. It has never been in danger of being stamped out, no matter how voracious the attempts, because it only served to make it thrive more.


Give us examples of the attempts.


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## welderguy (Sep 22, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Give us examples of the attempts.



Daily on the GON atheist forum.


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## bullethead (Sep 22, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Daily on the GON atheist forum.



Oh now I get it. Your definition of examples are grossly exaggerated due to your own inability to fully comprehend what you are reading each day so non-specific examples are all that you are able to provide.


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## ambush80 (Sep 22, 2017)

Israel said:


> I think I've mentioned this. As a child...maybe 5, 6, or 7 I watched ants marching in file across a sidewalk. I thought "they have no idea" (and yes, I concede I can be wrong about ants) "They have no idea about cars, and people, houses and big buildings...all this stuff going on all around them...that I could at any moment squish them all in their oblivion" (And as precocious as I may have been, I'm pretty sure the word "oblivion" really wasn't in mind, then)
> 
> But, anyway, they gave no indication of even knowing I was there, but I was acutely aware that (to me, at least) my awareness so far exceeded theirs, at least of the things "in the world" that I mused about it. "How could someone, how would someone (if it were possible)...make them "aware"?
> 
> ...



ERRRRNT!!!!  That's the "fail" buzzer.  There is no evidence for a being that exists that has the complexity or power that would make you an "ant" in comparison to it.  There just isn't.  There's only the fables of one.  

You can say that in comparison to the whole Universe we are like a pond scum on the surface of a planet among billions of other planets like ours.  You can say that there are forces like solar flares and hurricanes that could wipe us out "like a blowtorch to a pile of ants" but there's no evidence for a being behind any of it.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 22, 2017)

660griz said:


> I was watching "Hot Ones" on youtube. Funny stuff if yall ever get a chance to watch. Various celebrities eat increasingly hot wings.
> 
> Any hoodle, Ricky Gervais was talking about atheism, while most of what he said has been said before, he did have one quote that made me think.
> 
> ...



I think he doesn't know much about religion in
general and The Judeo-Christian God in specific.  The Judeo - Christian God revealed, and continues to
reveal himself to men sans Scripture.   He's alive and is no more dependent on the existence on scripture than you are.


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## ambush80 (Sep 22, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I think he doesn't know much about religion in
> general and The Judeo-Christian God in specific.  The Judeo - Christian God revealed, and continues to
> reveal himself to men sans Scripture.   He's alive and is no more dependent on the existence on scripture than you are.



Please read this and tell me honestly what you think of these people:

https://ffrf.org/outreach/item/13492-the-pirahae-people-who-define-happiness-without-god


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## Israel (Sep 22, 2017)

> There just isn't. There's only the fables of one.




I vaguely remember hearing people say that


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## welderguy (Sep 22, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Oh now I get it. Your definition of examples are grossly exaggerated due to your own inability to fully comprehend what you are reading each day so non-specific examples are all that you are able to provide.



I'm just not in the mood to go down that road with you...again. I've given you a sufficient answer. You didn't like it, as usual.Oh well.
There might be days I would, but not today. Anyhow, have yourself a blessed day friend.


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## bullethead (Sep 22, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> Please read this and tell me honestly what you think of these people:
> 
> https://ffrf.org/outreach/item/13492-the-pirahae-people-who-define-happiness-without-god





> We learn that not all the things we thought were universal are universal, not all the things that make people happy are necessary to make people happy, and that the idea that somebody died on a cross 2,000 years ago that nobody ever saw, nobody knows anybody who ever saw, has any relevance to my happiness or my life in any way today.


That about sums it up perfectly for me


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## bullethead (Sep 22, 2017)

Israel said:


> I vaguely remember hearing people say that



You gave a vague answer that involves a make believe character and did not, because you cannot, provide any tangible evidence to back up your answer.

You do not want to get into it or go over it because you have nothing to provide.


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## Israel (Sep 22, 2017)

bullethead said:


> You gave a vague answer that involves a make believe character and did not, because you cannot, provide any tangible evidence to back up your answer.
> 
> You do not want to get into it or go over it because you have nothing to provide.




It seems I have no understanding of what your position is except relative to the original assertions of the poster Ambush. If so, in your agreement, you will find your "pass/fail" paradigm has inherent in it things of which you do not begin to know the ramifications.


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## bullethead (Sep 22, 2017)

Israel said:


> It seems I have no understanding of what your position is except relative to the original assertions of the poster Ambush. If so, in your agreement, you will find your "pass/fail" paradigm has inherent in it things of which you do not begin to know the ramifications.


The you not understanding part I agree with. And it is understood that in the next sentence  you will comment on such things as if you do understand them.
Now, back the rest up with examples....


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 22, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> Please read this and tell me honestly what you think of these people:
> 
> regarding????


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## ambush80 (Sep 22, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> ambush80 said:
> 
> 
> > Please read this and tell me honestly what you think of these people:
> ...


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## bullethead (Sep 22, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> SemperFiDawg said:
> 
> 
> > _"The Judeo - Christian God revealed, and continues to
> ...


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 22, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> SemperFiDawg said:
> 
> 
> > _"The Judeo - Christian God revealed, and continues to
> ...


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## Israel (Sep 23, 2017)

bullethead said:


> The you not understanding part I agree with. And it is understood that in the next sentence  you will comment on such things as if you do understand them.
> Now, back the rest up with examples....



I would think your objections to the gospel of Jesus Christ are well enough known as to not need me to provide an example. You, yourself are the example for anyone wishing to watch. You are the sign.


All things are being made plain as to how each is constructed. But the "pass/fail" is not in my hands to administer. Nor yours, nor Ambush's. Touch it if you must, but you will not be able to carry it.


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## jmharris23 (Sep 23, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> Please read this and tell me honestly what you think of these people:
> 
> https://ffrf.org/outreach/item/13492-the-pirahae-people-who-define-happiness-without-god




Well I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I've read about these people before and Dan Everett's story. Just like you I think everyone has an agenda, including Dan. Whether what is posted in this link is truth I have no way of confirming, but it seems that Dan may not have been spot on in his assessments of the Piraha people according to this guy? 

https://www.quora.com/Why-dont-the-Pirahãs-believe-in-God-but-they-believe-in-spirits


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## bullethead (Sep 23, 2017)

Israel said:


> I would think your objections to the gospel of Jesus Christ are well enough known as to not need me to provide an example. You, yourself are the example for anyone wishing to watch. You are the sign.
> 
> 
> All things are being made plain as to how each is constructed. But the "pass/fail" is not in my hands to administer. Nor yours, nor Ambush's. Touch it if you must, but you will not be able to carry it.



Wow, you turned down an opportunity to quote scripture.
But
It is also a monumental breakthrough in that you finally realized that scripture only backs up scripture and we are looking for real workd examples.


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## bullethead (Sep 23, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> Well I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I've read about these people before and Dan Everett's story. Just like you I think everyone has an agenda, including Dan. Whether what is posted in this link is truth I have no way of confirming, but it seems that Dan may not have been spot on in his assessments of the Piraha people according to this guy?
> 
> https://www.quora.com/Why-dont-the-Pirahãs-believe-in-God-but-they-believe-in-spirits



Wouldn't it be something if their creation myth was the same as the Jews creation myth?
Wouldn't it be a greater confirmation if they talked about the Jesus myth?

Bacically what I am getting at is they are all myths  and as ridiculous as cutting down the trees to hold up sky sounds, so does killing your Son who does not really die to save the others who do not really care.


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## Mexican Squealer (Sep 23, 2017)

More fuel for the fire.


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## WaltL1 (Sep 23, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Science uses the means available to it at the time and is constantly checking and rechecking it's results as new means become available. Science is willing to change its conclusions if new information and methods becomes available to test things in new ways.
> 
> Religion seems to based off of the superstitions of the people and regions of the times it is written in. About the only thing that constantly changes is the excuses madr by its followers who stand by the beliefs of cultures that are thousands of years old.
> 
> ...





> I am confident that new and entirely different "gods" would be invented and worshipped if we all woke up tomorrow and all previous religions and knowledge of those religions were somehow erased.


That's kind of interesting to ponder.
I think what is happening to Christianity/society today might be a sneak preview of what a "new god" would look like.
This new god would probably not have a problem with gay marriage, divorce, interracial relationships, what you wear to worship him, woman equality etc. etc.
And of course as society changes so would this new religion. Just like Christianity.


> I am also confident that miracles would only take place where technology to record them does not exist.


Yup, in this day and age of higher education, technology, distrust of so called leaders etc. it would certainly be a lot tougher to sell to the masses people turning into pillars of salt or ladders to heaven etc.


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## ambush80 (Sep 23, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> That's kind of interesting to ponder.
> I think what is happening to Christianity/society today might be a sneak preview of what a "new god" would look like.
> This new god would probably not have a problem with gay marriage, divorce, interracial relationships, what you wear to worship him, woman equality etc. etc.
> And of course as society changes so would this new religion. Just like Christianity.
> ...



Excellent points, both of you guys.


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## gemcgrew (Sep 23, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Science uses the means available to it at the time and is constantly checking and rechecking it's results as new means become available. Science is willing to change its conclusions if new information and methods becomes available to test things in new ways.


Yes! Science can not discover truth. Its results have no logical claim to any rational connection with reality.

Well done.


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## bullethead (Sep 23, 2017)

gemcgrew said:


> Yes! Science can not discover truth. Its results have no logical claim to any rational connection with reality.
> 
> Well done.



One way to give your interpretation some credit is to back it up with examples that withstand scrutiny.


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## bullethead (Sep 23, 2017)

Mexican Squealer said:


> More fuel for the fire.



I wear asbestos undies. No worries.


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## WaltL1 (Sep 24, 2017)

gemcgrew said:


> Yes! Science can not discover truth. Its results have no logical claim to any rational connection with reality.
> 
> Well done.


Utter nonsense.
The truth is, here in reality, you just typed that out on a little machine that science brought you. And we are reading your communication, regardless of where we are, because of science.... 
Just once, I wish that those who rail against science would attempt to live without it and its accomplishments.
I imagine today you woke up in a climate controlled environment, turned on the lights, flushed the toilet, fixed some breakfast on the stove, probably got in your vehicle at some point, had to stop at a red light, while you were wearing clothes made out of some sort of material, maybe went to the doctor.........
We are honest about what science is and isn't, seems like you could be too if you wanted to.

And that's a great looking family in your avatar. That you can share because of a camera.....


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## Israel (Sep 24, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Utter nonsense.
> The truth is, here in reality, you just typed that out on a little machine that science brought you. And we are reading your communication, regardless of where we are, because of science....
> Just once, I wish that those who rail against science would attempt to live without it and its accomplishments.
> I imagine today you woke up in a climate controlled environment, turned on the lights, flushed the toilet, fixed some breakfast on the stove, probably got in your vehicle at some point, had to stop at a red light, while you were wearing clothes made out of some sort of material, maybe went to the doctor.........
> ...



I didn't find any railing. Really...did you? 

Or, is it that you found it implied?
I simply found a statement regarding the limits within science must work as a means.

But here is an interesting turn. The implication (to you, and tell me if I am wrong) that that statement (in which I find no _railing_) is then construed to indict the speaker of being less than honest (than some others) by his perceived and continued use of material inventions.


This I would say more approaches the truth of man, that is his assumed role (many of us would say presumed) as both indict-er and judge, by his own observations, is ubiquitous.

The whole of your argument is easily flipped (too easily now, for my tastes) toward those who use all the material without any regard for Him from whom all material things come.

But that is now facile. He has already known many will sit at his table, eating His biscuits, and call Him a fool. Even as He has appointed it. They are no less "invited" than I.

And everything speaks to the truth of its being.


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## bullethead (Sep 24, 2017)

Israel said:


> I didn't find any railing. Really...did you?
> 
> Or, is it that you found it implied?
> I simply found a statement regarding the limits within science must work as a means.
> ...


Walt, one more,....medication


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## WaltL1 (Sep 24, 2017)

Israel said:


> I didn't find any railing. Really...did you?
> 
> Or, is it that you found it implied?
> 
> ...





> Or, is it that you found it implied?


I would say yes that I found it implied. Although this seems (to me) pretty cut and dry more so than an "implication" -


> Its results have no logical claim to any rational connection with reality.


Could I be misinterpreting that? Sure.
I would hope Gem would respond with "you took it wrong, what I mean is.....


> I simply found a statement regarding the limits within science must work as a means.


If I interpreted that statement in the same way, I wouldn't even have commented. No question science has its limitations.


> is then construed to indict the speaker of being less than honest (than some others) by his perceived and continued use of material inventions.


Not meant to be an indictment. Meant to be a reminder.
A reminder addressing this in particular -


> Its results have no logical claim to any rational connection with reality.


I gave examples where the results of science were connected to the reality of every day life.
And I say reminder as opposed to indictment because I certainly didn't expect a Christian to sit naked out in the cold/hot or walking for miles ....


> is then construed to indict the speaker of being less than honest


Of being less than honest with themselves. Which is very different than being less than honest with me/us.
Can you claim the results of science has no rational connection to reality as, in reality, you are typing on a computer to make that claim?


> The whole of your argument is easily flipped (too easily now, for my tastes) toward those who use all the material without any regard for Him from whom all material things come.


Can only be flipped on those who believe all material things come from Him.


> He has already known many will sit at his table, eating His biscuits, and call Him a fool.


Many might. I don't. I don't call Him anything whether negative or positive.
But I do love biscuits.
IF He made them I thank him.


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## ambush80 (Sep 24, 2017)

Israel said:


> I didn't find any railing. Really...did you?
> 
> Or, is it that you found it implied?
> I simply found a statement regarding the limits within science must work as a means.
> ...



HE is a no show except for in the imagination of believers.  Bring Him out of your imagination.  Show Him to us.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 24, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> Please read this and tell me honestly what you think of these people:
> 
> https://ffrf.org/outreach/item/13492-the-pirahae-people-who-define-happiness-without-god



I went back and read both your and the jmharris linked articles.  It appears your author has a problem with his peers in that they disagree with his summation and feel he's essentially supporting his conversion to atheism via this article.  Given that in your article he's pictured in front of a Freedom From Religion Foundation prop and given that groups history.......well to put it bluntly I wound assign no credibility to it.  

That being said.  Going back to my initial statement.  I did NOT say God reveals himself to ALL men sans scripture, only that he's not dependent on it.  I firmly believe he reveals himself to any who search for him with a pure heart.


----------



## Israel (Sep 25, 2017)

A thing I do know is that GEM doesn't need me to take up for him. But I also know him as friend enough to know there's nothing he would deny me _in truth_.



To recount to him of _things used_ as though he were ignorant of his _own using of things_, as though he were ignorant of man's assuming a boast in _these mere things_ to dissuade him to another _origin of things_ is rather (forgive my use of the word again...) facile.

I'd rightly ask, do any of you pay attention, not only to others...but to yourselves? If there is any depth at all to man...do you consider it? Have you been so long in intercourse with (again) not only others...but yourselves...to be so poor in grasp to imagine a man like GEM has not only considered his relationship _to things_ (yes even those of so called scientific advancement) that he would need it pointed out he is _in the world?_

I can only assume that "in the world, but not of it" is something unexplored and (perhaps found) unexplorable to you. The concept of being found in two places "at once" to you might seem beyond the ken of your physics. But again, I am fairly sure even a glance into what men now call theoretical physics may show some fundamental disagreements with what men have long imagined as the fundaments of their perceptions _of reality_.

I do not need a computer to read GEM, nor a phone, nor a picture to show me "what he is like". What he has used of these things as expression has shown me he has already contended with certain _seeming paradoxes _to a resolution in himself that would only embarrass me to try to make plain to you. He is more than able.

You have your thoughts, your own imaginations of _how things are_ even in the appraisal of men and one another. But your appraisals say far more about yourselves than they do the one you might care to target. 

One man is set completely free _to use the things of this world_...another owes something in debt to things in their use...for he, as yet, cannot see past..._things_.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Sep 25, 2017)

Israel said:


> A thing I do know is that GEM doesn't need me to take up for him. But I also know him as friend enough to know there's nothing he would deny me _in truth_.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh Brother.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Sep 25, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> HE is a no show except for in the imagination of believers.  Bring Him out of your imagination.  Show Him to us.



Oh you will see him soon enough, naked and without excuses.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 25, 2017)

Israel said:


> A thing I do know is that GEM doesn't need me to take up for him. But I also know him as friend enough to know there's nothing he would deny me _in truth_.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



PBS cannot exist without the fine folks like you who support it, your generous donations are what keep us on the air. Now back to our show and another installment of the Shutter Island series episode  "Science isn't real, but I have to use it to tell you how it isn't real"
How far will the doctors let this elaborate ruse go?
Will the patient see the error of his ways and finally be cured?
Will there be another lobotomy on the Island?
These questions and more as it pans out ....stay tuned....


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 25, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Oh you will see him soon enough, naked and without excuses.



You have no idea if that's true.  From what I can tell from the source it's a fairy tale.


----------



## Israel (Sep 25, 2017)

> "Science isn't real, but I have to use it to tell you how it isn't real"



Why am I sure I am not the only who is amazed at your profound lack of understanding. _Science_ is a methodology, not a material product, and surely not the devices I am entirely free to use. 

Expression of self, whether it meets your criteria for being valid, laughable, or tenable is entirely another matter. It may be the use of such devices by me is for you a stumbling block and should be forsworn to your benefit. I will consider this.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 25, 2017)

Israel said:


> Why am I sure I am not the only who is amazed at your profound lack of understanding. _Science_ is a methodology, not a material product, and surely not the devices I am entirely free to use.
> 
> Expression of self, whether it meets your criteria for being valid, laughable, or tenable is entirely another matter. It may be the use of such devices by me is for you a stumbling block and should be forsworn to your benefit. I will consider this.


Oops you did it again.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 25, 2017)

Israel said:


> Why am I sure I am not the only who is amazed at your profound lack of understanding. _Science_ is a methodology, not a material product, and surely not the devices I am entirely free to use.
> 
> Expression of self, whether it meets your criteria for being valid, laughable, or tenable is entirely another matter. It may be the use of such devices by me is for you a stumbling block and should be forsworn to your benefit. I will consider this.


The Scientific methods produce results. Many of those results are truths. Take A, add B, get C. Without Scientific experiments, testing and retesting and the results that they produce you would not be able to go through daily life as you do now. The devices that you are totally free to use are a direct result of Science.
Without Science you would have never known of me. Embrace it. You depend on the byproducts daily.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 25, 2017)

Israel said:


> Why am I sure I am not the only who is amazed at your profound lack of understanding. _Science_ is a methodology, not a material product, and surely not the devices I am entirely free to use.
> 
> Expression of self, whether it meets your criteria for being valid, laughable, or tenable is entirely another matter. It may be the use of such devices by me is for you a stumbling block and should be forsworn to your benefit. I will consider this.


That is the equivalent of me saying:
"Belief is an ideology not a material product. God is the product which does not exist"
And then I pray to a god to step in and help you realize that the god is not real.

You are using the products of Science to somehow try to tell us that Science doesn't really  produce truthful results.


----------



## Israel (Sep 25, 2017)

bullethead said:


> The Scientific methods produce results. Many of those results are truths. Take A, add B, get C. Without Scientific experiments, testing and retesting and the results that they produce you would not be able to go through daily life as you do now. The devices that you are totally free to use are a direct result of Science.
> Without Science you would have never known of me. Embrace it. You depend on the byproducts daily.





> Without Science you would have never known of me.



I think science told you to say that.
As in "science tells us that..."


----------



## bullethead (Sep 25, 2017)

Israel said:


> I think science told you to say that.
> As in "science tells us that..."



Science allows me to convey what I think and say to you despite us not being face to face.

In fact, neither one of us could talk face to face without involving and relying on Science to allow it to happen.


----------



## 660griz (Sep 25, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I think he doesn't know much about religion in
> general and The Judeo-Christian God in specific.  The Judeo - Christian God revealed, and continues to
> reveal himself to men sans Scripture.   He's alive and is no more dependent on the existence on scripture than you are.



Does every God reveal themselves? 
Doesn't every God 'revealing' themselves to their believers say something about the believers? Isn't/shouldn't it be one of those things that make you go, hmmmmmm?

Would the God(s) reveal themselves if the believers didn't know about the God to begin with?

What is your definition of alive?


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Sep 25, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> You have no idea if that's true.  From what I can tell from the source it's a fairy tale.



Honestly, in our heart, WE both know it's true.  There's no point in beating this carcass again.  Regardless, I'm not the one you will have to answer to.  I truely feel sorry for you.  That's all.


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 25, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Honestly, in our heart, WE both know it's true.  There's no point in beating this carcass again.  Regardless, I'm not the one you will have to answer to.  I truely feel sorry for you.  That's all.



I know that you're delusional.

_de·lu·sion·al
dÉ™ËˆloÍžoZH(É™)nÉ™l/
adjective
adjective: delusional

    characterized by or holding idiosyncratic beliefs or impressions that are contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder.
    "hospitalization for schizophrenia and delusional paranoia"
        based on or having faulty judgment; mistaken.
        "their delusional belief in the project's merits never wavers"_

I'll ask Ra to have forgiveness for you.  I will tell Him that you did your best but you were simply mistaken.  If that sounds ridiculous to you then you know how you sound to me.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 25, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Honestly, in our heart, WE both know it's true.  There's no point in beating this carcass again.  Regardless, I'm not the one you will have to answer to.  I truely feel sorry for you.  That's all.



"WE both know it's true"
From the author of the Intellectual Dishonesty thread.....


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 25, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Honestly, in our heart, WE both know it's true.  There's no point in beating this carcass again.  Regardless, I'm not the one you will have to answer to.  I truely feel sorry for you.  That's all.



By the way, for the kids at home, this is a prime example  of one of the greatest costs of belief.  Look at the relationship that SemperFi has created in his mind between us.  Me, the pitiful.  He, the righteous.  If you can't see what this disastrous error in judgement may lead him to then you aren't trying very hard.


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 25, 2017)

bullethead said:


> "WE both know it's true"
> From the author of the Intellectual Dishonesty thread.....



I wonder if he doesn't understand the meanings of the words he uses or if he doesn't see how the words apply to himself.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Sep 25, 2017)

660griz said:


> Does every God reveal themselves?
> Doesn't every God 'revealing' themselves to their believers say something about the believers? Isn't/shouldn't it be one of those things that make you go, hmmmmmm?
> 
> Would the God(s) reveal themselves if the believers didn't know about the God to begin with?
> ...



I feel pity for you too Griz.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 25, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> I wonder if he doesn't understand the meanings of the words he uses or if he doesn't see how the words apply to himself.



God, Jesus, SFD. Everyone else is off the podium.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Sep 25, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> By the way, for the kids at home, this is a prime example  of one of the greatest costs of belief.  Look at the relationship that SemperFi has created in his mind between us.  Me, the pitiful.  He, the righteous.  If you can't see what this disastrous error in judgement may lead him to then you aren't trying very hard.



Yes look kids and take note.   I never claimed righteousness, so that's patently false.   I'm far from righteous. The only feeling I expressed is one of concern and remorse for another fellow human being, and it's met with derision.  Yet another example that the universal constant in atheism is a burning hatred for the truth.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 25, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I feel pity for you too Griz.



You should start to pity yourself for your inability to truthfully answer the questions that are asked of you. Constantly deflecting your answer with an unverifiable claim and fake compassion doesn't help you at all.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 25, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Yes look kids and take note.   I never claimed righteousness, so that's patently false.   I'm far from righteous. The only feeling I expressed is one of concern and remorse for another fellow human being, and it's met with derision.  Yet another example that the universal constant in atheism is a burning hatred for the truth.


No need for you to claim righteousness, it oozes from your writing.
Your pretend concern and remorse is only offered after you make a false claim that is intended to imply that the subject of your compassion is somehow less better off and more lacking than you.....due to your religious beliefs.
Nobody is fooled.


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 25, 2017)

bullethead said:


> No need for you to claim righteousness, it oozes from your writing.
> Your pretend concern and remorse is only offered after you make a false claim that is intended to imply that the subject of your compassion is somehow less better off and more lacking than you.....due to your religious beliefs.
> Nobody is fooled.



"If only they could have what I have. If only they were as open with themselves as I.  If only they weren't trapped by the Devil.  If only they were as honest as me."


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 25, 2017)

bullethead said:


> No need for you to claim righteousness, it oozes from your writing.
> Your pretend concern and remorse is only offered after you make a false claim that is intended to imply that the subject of your compassion is somehow less better off and more lacking than you.....due to your religious beliefs.
> Nobody is fooled.



Furthermore, if a believer were to absorb what going to He11 literally means they would find it reprehensible.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 25, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> Furthermore, if a believer were to absorb what going to He11 literally means they would find it reprehensible.



They dont care. At all.
It is a "better him than me" attitude based off of ZERO evidence. Without it people in that mindset couldn't deal with the reality of death.


----------



## ky55 (Sep 25, 2017)

bullethead said:


> They dont care. At all.
> It is a "better him than me" attitude based off of ZERO evidence. Without it people in that mindset couldn't deal with the reality of death.



This one has been around a while, but I think it applies here:

The chosen few..


 We are the pure and chosen few
And all the rest are dam-med
There’s room enough in Hades for you
We don’t want heaven crammed. 

*


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 25, 2017)

bullethead said:


> They dont care. At all.
> It is a "better him than me" attitude based off of ZERO evidence. Without it people in that mindset couldn't deal with the reality of death.



I understand the psychological strategy that people employ in order to compartmentalize suffering.  I know that there are children being born in a trash heap in India right now that may not live through the night.  I can't obsess over it, but I also know that it's reality. Eternity in He11 is many degrees more horrific than that.  If one were to REALLY invest emotionally in the idea of He11 they would be wracked with grief to the point of immobility.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 25, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> I understand the psychological strategy that people employ in order to compartmentalize suffering.  I know that there are children being born in a trash heap in India right now that may not live through the night.  I can't obsess over it, but I also know that it's reality. Eternity in He11 is many degrees more horrific than that.  If one were to REALLY invest emotionally in the idea of He11 they would be wracked with grief to the point of immobility.


Absolutely. 
I am more impressed with how many of the religious are able to totally justify the eternal horrors of h3ll and then in the next sentence tell us about their compassion for another human.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 25, 2017)

ky55 said:


> This one has been around a while, but I think it applies here:
> 
> The chosen few..
> 
> ...



Yup


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 25, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Absolutely.
> I am more impressed with how many of the religious are able to totally justify the eternal horrors of h3ll and then in the next sentence tell us about their compassion for another human.



Or how "loving" God is.


----------



## 660griz (Sep 25, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I feel pity for you too Griz.



Good talk.


----------



## 660griz (Sep 25, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> Or how "loving" God is.



And then claim we get morals and ethics from the Bible. Thankfully, that is not true.


----------



## welderguy (Sep 25, 2017)

I don't have pity or compassion on those that are going to he11. But that's a general statement because I don't know who they are.
They don't want anything to do with God while living, so when they are eternally separated from Him in total darkness, that should be what they've always wanted, right?

Am I missing something?


----------



## bullethead (Sep 25, 2017)

welderguy said:


> I don't have pity or compassion on those that are going to he11. But that's a general statement because I don't know who they are.
> They don't want anything to do with God while living, so when they are eternally separated from Him in total darkness, that should be what they've always wanted, right?
> 
> Am I missing something?


You are constantly missing something. Stay consistent my friend.


----------



## welderguy (Sep 25, 2017)

bullethead said:


> You are constantly missing something. Stay consistent my friend.



Ok, for once leave off the coyness and explain it.
Why do people, who constantly ridicule the concept of God, think it's unjust for them to be separated from Him in eternal darkness? Wouldn't they want to be separated from Him and everything about Him?


----------



## 660griz (Sep 25, 2017)

welderguy said:


> They don't want anything to do with God while living,


 I spent lots of years of my life wanting something to do with God. He was a no show. Then I got older and figured out why. 



> so when they are eternally separated from Him in total darkness, that should be what they've always wanted, right?
> 
> Am I missing something?



I will be dead soooo....


----------



## welderguy (Sep 25, 2017)

660griz said:


> I spent lots of years of my life wanting something to do with God. He was a no show. Then I got older and figured out why.
> 
> 
> 
> I will be dead soooo....



All I can say is you must not have wanted it too bad to have given up like you did.

Regardless, as for the way you feel now about Him, do you have a problem being eternally separated from everything related to the concept of God?


----------



## bullethead (Sep 25, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Ok, for once leave off the coyness and explain it.
> Why do people, who constantly ridicule the concept of God, think it's unjust for them to be separated from Him in eternal darkness? Wouldn't they want to be separated from Him and everything about Him?



We are debating with some Christians that tell us h3ll is not just darkness and separation from god. That it is fiery, hot and torturous for eternity and we deserve it. Then in the next sentence tell us about their compassion. 

In your case many in here do not believe in a god therefore do not believe in a h3ll so neither consumes our thoughts.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 25, 2017)

welderguy said:


> I don't have pity or compassion on those that are going to he11. But that's a general statement because I don't know who they are.
> They don't want anything to do with God while living, so when they are eternally separated from Him in total darkness, that should be what they've always wanted, right?
> 
> Am I missing something?


Yes.
If we don't believe that it is has been proven that a (G)god exists...
how can we not want to have anything do with him?
Wouldn't we have to believe he exists to reject him?
Now if you were to prove he exists and then prove he is exactly as claimed and THEN we rejected him then you would have a very valid point.
What I/we reject are all the unproven claims.
Theres a big difference there.
Its a common misconception.
"You hate God"
"You reject God"
"You don't want anything to with God"


----------



## bullethead (Sep 25, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Yes.
> If we don't believe that it is has been proven that a (G)god exists...
> how can we not want to have anything do with him?
> Wouldn't we have to believe he exists to reject him?
> ...



Exactly.
If a god exists..
I want to meet a god.
I am open to contact from a god.

Until then I stay the course as is.


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 25, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Exactly.
> If a god exists..
> I want to meet a god.
> I am open to contact from a god.
> ...



...or in my case, go with the best available evidence as it comes in.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 25, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> ...or in my case, go with the best available evidence as it comes in.



Well, yes.
That it what has gotten me to my current position.


----------



## ky55 (Sep 25, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Well, yes.
> That it what has gotten me to my current position.



Maybe you just want to BE a God.


----------



## welderguy (Sep 25, 2017)

bullethead said:


> We are debating with some Christians that tell us h3ll is not just darkness and separation from god. That it is fiery, hot and torturous for eternity and we deserve it. Then in the next sentence tell us about their compassion.
> 
> In your case many in here do not believe in a god therefore do not believe in a h3ll so neither consumes our thoughts.



It is my belief that a complete separation from God would be worse than any physical fire. Some of the martyrs died a horrible death in fire, but they were not for a second separated from God.


----------



## welderguy (Sep 25, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Yes.
> If we don't believe that it is has been proven that a (G)god exists...
> how can we not want to have anything do with him?
> Wouldn't we have to believe he exists to reject him?
> ...



Oh, so in the event there really is a he11, then (using this logic) the person in the he11 can just "unbelieve" that they are in it and it will just be non-existent. Simple as that.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 25, 2017)

ky55 said:


> Maybe you just want to BE a God.



I'm not one for groupies.


----------



## welderguy (Sep 25, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> ...or in my case, go with the best available evidence as it comes in.



Or lack thereof, by divine design?


----------



## bullethead (Sep 25, 2017)

welderguy said:


> It is my belief that a complete separation from God would be worse than any physical fire. Some of the martyrs died a horrible death in fire, but they were not for a second separated from God.



1. A physical fire is obviously excruciatingly painful but it only lasts until you die. That same pain continuing on for every second of every day for eternity is much worse than not having a god

2.Who were these martyrs?


----------



## bullethead (Sep 25, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Oh, so in the event there really is a he11, then (using this logic) the person in the he11 can just "unbelieve" that they are in it and it will just be non-existent. Simple as that.



You are stuck in the same logic.
You put all of your eggs in one basket.

If you are wrong you may have to regurgitate scripture to a beast that rips you apart every day over and over for eternity and find out that it doesn't care about your scripture.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 25, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Oh, so in the event there really is a he11, then (using this logic) the person in the he11 can just "unbelieve" that they are in it and it will just be non-existent. Simple as that.


That doesn't make a lick of sense.
If they are ACTUALLY, FOR REAL, IN HE11 then they can "unbelieve" anything they want but they would still be in he11.
Just as if THERE ACTUALLY, FOR REAL is a Christian God then we can "not believe" all we want but there is.
Just as if THERE ACTUALLY, FOR REAL IS NOT a Christian God then you can believe there is all you want but there isn't.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 25, 2017)

Israel said:


> A thing I do know is that GEM doesn't need me to take up for him. But I also know him as friend enough to know there's nothing he would deny me _in truth_.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is what Gem said -


> Its results have no logical claim to any rational connection with reality.


That's what was responded to.


----------



## welderguy (Sep 25, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> That doesn't make a lick of sense.
> If they are ACTUALLY, FOR REAL, IN HE11 then they can "unbelieve" anything they want but they would still be in he11.
> Just as if THERE ACTUALLY, FOR REAL is a Christian God then we can "not believe" all we want but there is.
> Just as if THERE ACTUALLY, FOR REAL IS NOT a Christian God then you can believe there is all you want but there isn't.



I agree it doesn't make sense because I was showing the unbeliever's warped logic in a facetious manner.

And you can flip it,..or I can flip it, either way the truth stands on its own, regardless of anything you and I say.


----------



## welderguy (Sep 25, 2017)

bullethead said:


> You are stuck in the same logic.
> You put all of your eggs in one basket.
> 
> If you are wrong you may have to regurgitate scripture to a beast that rips you apart every day over and over for eternity and find out that it doesn't care about your scripture.



Oh but you are so incompassionate in saying that.

...sound familiar?


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 25, 2017)

welderguy said:


> I agree it doesn't make sense because I was showing the unbeliever's warped logic in a facetious manner.
> 
> And you can flip it,..or I can flip it, either way the truth stands on its own, regardless of anything you and I say.





> I agree it doesn't make sense because I was showing the unbeliever's warped logic in a facetious manner.


It is not warped logic to not believe something exists that can't be proven to exist.
That is the opposite of warped logic.


> And you can flip it,..or I can flip it, either way the truth stands on its own, regardless of anything you and I say


On that I agree with you 100%.


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 25, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Or lack thereof, by divine design?



You can call it that but there's no evidence for it.  I can just as easily say that Zeus designed it, though I'll not believe either.


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 25, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> That doesn't make a lick of sense.
> If they are ACTUALLY, FOR REAL, IN HE11 then they can "unbelieve" anything they want but they would still be in he11.
> Just as if THERE ACTUALLY, FOR REAL is a Christian God then we can "not believe" all we want but there is.
> Just as if THERE ACTUALLY, FOR REAL IS NOT a Christian God then you can believe there is all you want but there isn't.



Or if it's one of the thousands of Gods that he doesn't believe in he's just as danged.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 25, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Oh but you are so incompassionate in saying that.
> 
> ...sound familiar?



Um, no


----------



## welderguy (Sep 25, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> Or if it's one of the thousands of Gods that he doesn't believe in he's just as danged.



Not if it chose me.


----------



## welderguy (Sep 25, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> You can call it that but there's no evidence for it.  I can just as easily say that Zeus designed it, though I'll not believe either.



No evidence that you can see, that is.

You gotta stop making these declarative statements that you can't back up.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 25, 2017)

welderguy said:


> No evidence that you can see, that is.
> 
> You gotta stop making these declarative statements that you can't back up.



He and we back them up all the time. Each and every time the only thing missing for proof is a god. The only thing consistent is that every believer in every religion claims to have a special relationship with something that can't be seen.  You and your god and no more credible than them and their gods. Neither have a shred of evidence that bests the other.


----------



## welderguy (Sep 25, 2017)

bullethead said:


> He and we back them up all the time. Each and every time the only thing missing for proof is a god. The only thing consistent is that every believer in every religion claims to have a special relationship with something that can't be seen.  You and your god and no more credible than them and their gods. Neither have a shred of evidence that bests the other.



Oh yeah?
None of the other gods have prophets that prophecied with 100% accuracy every time.(obviously not counting the prophecies that have not been fulfilled yet.)


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 26, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Oh yeah?
> None of the other gods have prophets that prophecied with 100% accuracy every time.(obviously not counting the prophecies that have not been fulfilled yet.)


If that were true, which it is not, how does what someone else prophesized prove the existence of a god?
Please think about it before you respond.
And yes I know Christianity tells you they were prophesizing through God so skip that as your answer and focus on the question asked.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 26, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Oh yeah?
> None of the other gods have prophets that prophecied with 100% accuracy every time.(obviously not counting the prophecies that have not been fulfilled yet.)



Welder we have shown you multiple times how inaccurate that bogus claim is.
Poor try


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## WaltL1 (Sep 26, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Oh yeah?
> None of the other gods have prophets that prophecied with 100% accuracy every time.(obviously not counting the prophecies that have not been fulfilled yet.)


Here's why I constantly tell you to think about what you say -
Your claim -


> None of the other gods have prophets that prophecied with 100% accuracy every time


Then you nullify what you just claimed -


> obviously not counting the prophecies that have not been fulfilled yet


All in the same sentence!
I'll put it in math so you know what I believe or don't believe has nothing to do with it.
A prophet prophesized 10 things.
5 of those things came true.
5 of those things have not been fulfilled yet.
What is the prophets accuracy rate?

When you get done with the math answer this question -
Is this claim you made true or false? -


> None of the other gods have prophets that prophecied with 100% accuracy every time.



You really gotta think about what you say to us my friend.


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## Israel (Sep 26, 2017)

I am lost and perishing in the dark. But I am as likewise blinded by too much light. I must have things measured to me or I  cannot be, to myself. 

I am found residing in a machine of meat with a seeming ever present impetus to make something of itself, yet still knowing (or having it continually proven) it is only meat.

God here, is not a quaint concept.


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## 660griz (Sep 26, 2017)

welderguy said:


> All I can say is you must not have wanted it too bad to have given up like you did.


 I wanted real bad when I was young. I really didn't understand what God was about but, I wanted in. 



> Regardless, as for the way you feel now about Him, do you have a problem being eternally separated from everything related to the concept of God?


No problem at all. For me, about the same as finding out there are no Tooth Fairies or Santa Claus.

I still don't get the concept of a kind loving God that created us and everything around us and demands we worship him or else. What does he get out of the deal? Inflated ego? He can create worlds and universes yet, he worries what I think about?
Come on, guys.


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## welderguy (Sep 26, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Here's why I constantly tell you to think about what you say -
> Your claim -
> 
> Then you nullify what you just claimed -
> ...



Thanks for the math lesson, but what I'm referring to when I say unfulfilled prophecy is that which obviously could not have happened yet. Those that deal with the destruction of the world, and when time no longer exists. You get the idea.


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## WaltL1 (Sep 26, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Thanks for the math lesson, but what I'm referring to when I say unfulfilled prophecy is that which obviously could not have happened yet. Those that deal with the destruction of the world, and when time no longer exists. You get the idea.


If it didnt happen yet you cant claim 100% accuracy, every time. Which makes your claim false.
Do get that idea?


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## 660griz (Sep 26, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> If it didnt happen yet you cant claim 100% accuracy, every time. Which makes your claim false.
> Do get that idea?



Then there is this...
"Christians claim that the Bible has hundreds of fulfilled prophecies, and is proof of its divine inspiration.  In actuality, these so called fulfilled prophecies failed, were false or weren't prophecies at all.  Many of these prophecies are so vague, they can be attributed to different events.  It's also a fact that the Bible was written many years after these presumed prophecies and their "fulfillment" took place.  It's also fair to mention that nowhere in the Bible will you find countries such as the United States, Russia, China, Korea, Great Britain prophesied.  Oh Christians will tell you that they are, if you know how to interpret the Bible."


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## ambush80 (Sep 26, 2017)

http://www.businessinsider.com/nostradamus-true-predictions-2014-5


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## WaltL1 (Sep 26, 2017)

660griz said:


> Then there is this...
> "Christians claim that the Bible has hundreds of fulfilled prophecies, and is proof of its divine inspiration.  In actuality, these so called fulfilled prophecies failed, were false or weren't prophecies at all.  Many of these prophecies are so vague, they can be attributed to different events.  It's also a fact that the Bible was written many years after these presumed prophecies and their "fulfillment" took place.  It's also fair to mention that nowhere in the Bible will you find countries such as the United States, Russia, China, Korea, Great Britain prophesied.  Oh Christians will tell you that they are, if you know how to interpret the Bible."


Heck, I'm just trying to get him to pay attention to what he himself says never mind what someone else says


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## bullethead (Sep 26, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Heck, I'm just trying to get him to pay attention to what he himself says never mind what someone else says



He ignores fact.
He says what he wants to be true as fact.
He refuses to acknowledge each and every fact we give him.
He continues to say the same things over and over as if he was never shown otherwise.

Don't get your hopes up Walt.


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## welderguy (Sep 26, 2017)

The test of a true prophet of God is he must be accurate 100% every time.
Nostradamus does not measure up to that standard.


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## bullethead (Sep 26, 2017)

I'm





welderguy said:


> The test of a true prophet of God is he must be accurate 100% every time.
> Nostradamus does not measure up to that standard.



 Neither does the bible or any prophet in it. 

Welder, we already had this conversation and it was shown how inaccurate your prophecy was and is.

Keep on saying the same thing though.

And you still never answered #101


----------



## welderguy (Sep 26, 2017)

bullethead said:


> I'm
> 
> Neither does the bible or any prophet in it.
> 
> ...



You may think you've shown it inaccurate, but you have certainly not.

And though there are no names listed, you'll find your answer to post #101 in Heb.11:35b. 
These are true martyrs for the cause of Christ.

"and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance;"

...."(Of whom the world was not worthy)"


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## bullethead (Sep 26, 2017)

welderguy said:


> You may think you've shown it inaccurate, but you have certainly not.
> 
> And though there are no names listed, you'll find your answer to post #101 in Heb.11:35b.
> These are true martyrs for the cause of Christ.
> ...


You

Are

Wrong


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 26, 2017)

welderguy said:


> The test of a true prophet of God is he must be accurate 100% every time.
> Nostradamus does not measure up to that standard.


So what are the names of the true prophets that have been accurate 100% of the time?
Remember you cant include any prophets whos prophecies have not yet come true.


----------



## red neck richie (Sep 26, 2017)

660griz said:


> I was watching "Hot Ones" on youtube. Funny stuff if yall ever get a chance to watch. Various celebrities eat increasingly hot wings.
> 
> Any hoodle, Ricky Gervais was talking about atheism, while most of what he said has been said before, he did have one quote that made me think.
> 
> ...



I totally disagree. Mans sciences is ever changing with new technology and new understanding. God is the only constant. Creation, Love, forgiveness, and grace have the same formula.


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## welderguy (Sep 26, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> So what are the names of the true prophets that have been accurate 100% of the time?
> Remember you cant include any prophets whos prophecies have not yet come true.



They can qualify as a true prophet even if some of their prophecies are to be fulfilled in the future.(ie. Jesus, the truest prophet ever)

Somehow you've got it in your head that unfulfilled means inaccurate.
Why is that? Inaccurate means something else happened instead of what was prophesied.


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## bullethead (Sep 26, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> So what are the names of the true prophets that have been accurate 100% of the time?
> Remember you cant include any prophets whos prophecies have not yet come true.



Typical Welder reply will be that he doesn't know exactly but if you look between Genesis and Revelations YOU will find them.

He doesnt realize that we have read the bible,  whatever scripture that we cannot recite from memory we research before we make our replies.

He makes his replies, hopes that what he is talking about is in there, and the tries to connect dots that do not exist to try to make a point that he already lost.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 26, 2017)

welderguy said:


> They can qualify as a true prophet even if some of their prophecies are to be fulfilled in the future.(ie. Jesus, the truest prophet ever)
> 
> Somehow you've got it in your head that unfulfilled means inaccurate.
> Why is that? Inaccurate means something else happened instead of what was prophesied.


No Welder here is what Ive got in my head -


> The test of a true prophet of God is he must be accurate 100% every time.


THOSE ARE YOUR WORDS.
I asked you which prophet(s) has been accurate 100%
of the time.
I never mentioned inaccuracy. Not even once.


Welder I'm a high school dropout that didnt get past decimals and fractions. But even I know to be 100% accurate then 100% of what they prophesized has to have ALREADY HAPPENED and they were right 100% of the time.
NOW do you get why you cant use prophets whose prophesy HASNT HAPPENED YET?????????
So I ask again -


> Originally Posted by WaltL1
> So what are the names of the true prophets that have been accurate 100% of the time?
> Remember you cant include any prophets whos prophecies have not yet come true.


GO BACK TO THE MATH QUESTION YOU IGNORED.


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## WaltL1 (Sep 26, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Typical Welder reply will be that he doesn't know exactly but if you look between Genesis and Revelations YOU will find them.
> 
> He doesnt realize that we have read the bible,  whatever scripture that we cannot recite from memory we research before we make our replies.
> 
> He makes his replies, hopes that what he is talking about is in there, and the tries to connect dots that do not exist to try to make a point that he already lost.


He's doing his best to get around the fact that he doesn't have a clue, he's just regurgitating what hes been told but hasn't actually given it a lick of thought.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 27, 2017)

Try this one Welder 
IF -


> The test of a true prophet of God is he must be accurate 100% every time.


A prophet prophesizes 5 things.
4 of those 5 things have happened just as he prophesized.
The 5th thing he prophesized he said will happen in the year 2019.
When will you know if he was 100% accurate or not?


----------



## welderguy (Sep 27, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Try this one Welder
> IF -
> 
> A prophet prophesizes 5 things.
> ...



So let me get this straight. According to your logic, even if a prophet has prophesied 100 things accurately, if the 101st one has not come to pass yet, he is declared a false prophet?

In this logic, you do realize that would make Jesus a false prophet?
You may be that brazen, but not me.


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## bullethead (Sep 27, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> He's doing his best to get around the fact that he doesn't have a clue, he's just regurgitating what hes been told but hasn't actually given it a lick of thought.



I've never seen anything from him to be different than what you've described.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 27, 2017)

welderguy said:


> So let me get this straight. According to your logic, even if a prophet has prophesied 100 things accurately, if the 101st one has not come to pass yet, he is declared a false prophet?
> 
> In this logic, you do realize that would make Jesus a false prophet?
> You may be that brazen, but not me.


Holy carp on a cracker 
We aren't using my logic we are using YOUR WORDS and MATH.


> The test of a true prophet of God is he must be accurate 100% every time.


JUST ANSWER THIS SIMPLE QUESTION -


> A prophet prophesizes 5 things.
> 4 of those 5 things have happened just as he prophesized.
> The 5th thing he prophesized he said will happen in the year 2019.
> When will you know if he was 100% accurate or not?


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 27, 2017)

bullethead said:


> I've never seen anything from him to be different than what you've described.


I refuse to believe he is this dense. If he can tie his shoes he MUST have the ability to answer an ultra simple math question.
Its got to be an act.


----------



## hummerpoo (Sep 27, 2017)

deja vu: metaphysics/metphysical


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## WaltL1 (Sep 27, 2017)

hummerpoo said:


> deja vu: metaphysics/metphysical


Nope just Welders own words and simple math.


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## bullethead (Sep 27, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> I refuse to believe he is this dense. If he can tie his shoes he MUST have the ability to answer an ultra simple math question.
> Its got to be an act.



It is a defense mechanism. I can say with honesty that I would ignore and act as if I didn't see/hear/read anything that went against my Christian beliefs when I first started to think outside the box . I would research things that I thought were untrue,  find the information that backed it up, and still refuse to believe it by trying to find some scripture that was close enough to what I wanted to hear and when even that didn't work I filled in the blanks with what I thought it should be and what I wanted it to be.
It took a few years of gradual acceptance that what I always knew was true just wasnt. Guilt would have me pray for forgiveness after I found solid evidence (which I purposely looked for) against my beliefs. It went on until my own arguments and baseless claims for religion were just too much for me to continue making excuses for.
Welder literally does not and cannot back up his statements and claims so blatantly ignoring our requests to explain himself and give us evidence is easier than admitting that he is wrong.


----------



## 660griz (Sep 27, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> I totally disagree. Mans sciences is ever changing with new technology and new understanding. God is the only constant. Creation, Love, forgiveness, and grace have the same formula.



Me thinketh you misseth the pointeth. 

Science is basically the explanation for the observable world. Gravity, waves, lightning, light, etc. are all things we now understand. Yes, we are constantly learning but, throw all the science books away and we would eventually get back to the same place. Throw a fairy tale book away, you get a different fairy tale.

Religion is also ever changing. New interpretations of the Bible to fit the social norms of the day are quite evident throughout history. 
Slavery=Bad now.
Not many 12 year old girls are marrying 30 year old men anymore. 
I can shoot on Sunday...etc.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 27, 2017)

bullethead said:


> It is a defense mechanism. I can say with honesty that I would ignore and act as if I didn't see/hear/read anything that went against my Christian beliefs when I first started to think outside the box . I would research things that I thought were untrue,  find the information that backed it up, and still refuse to believe it by trying to find some scripture that was close enough to what I wanted to hear and when even that didn't work I filled in the blanks with what I thought it should be and what I wanted it to be.
> It took a few years of gradual acceptance that what I always knew was true just wasnt. Guilt would have me pray for forgiveness after I found solid evidence (which I purposely looked for) against my beliefs. It went on until my own arguments and baseless claims for religion were just too much for me to continue making excuses for.
> Welder literally does not and cannot back up his statements and claims so blatantly ignoring our requests to explain himself and give us evidence is easier than admitting that he is wrong.


Its sad when the answer to the most basic, simple math question horrifies you enough to the point of dishonesty.
He knows what the answer to the question is.
When you have to play dumb and be dishonest, and that is what he is doing, what does that say about your beliefs?


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## bullethead (Sep 27, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Its sad when the answer to the most basic, simple math question horrifies you enough to the point of dishonesty.
> He knows what the answer to the question is.
> When you have to play dumb and be dishonest, and that is what he is doing, what does that say about your beliefs?



Truth


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## 660griz (Sep 27, 2017)

welderguy said:


> They can qualify as a true prophet even if some of their prophecies are to be fulfilled in the future.(ie. Jesus, the truest prophet ever)
> 
> Somehow you've got it in your head that unfulfilled means inaccurate.
> Why is that? Inaccurate means something else happened instead of what was prophesied.



I can do that to. 

There will be a great war that will end in 1945 due in part to lots of folks on an island suddenly combusting. 
(Ya see, if you prophecy stuff after the fact, it is pretty easy.)

For instance, 

Jesus died in 30 AD.
Luke 24:46-47. NKJV. “He told them, 'This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.'”
Luke was written in 70 AD. 

Luke predictated the death and resurrection.


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## welderguy (Sep 27, 2017)

I gotta tap out on this one.
This has gone to a whole new level of low.


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## bullethead (Sep 27, 2017)

Genesis 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.

Here God tells Isaac that his descendents (Hebrews) will be as numerous as the stars. Considering the number of stars there are in the universe, that would have to be on the order of 1020Jewish people.

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Christians say that this verse is a prophecy of Jesus' birth to a virgin. There are a couple problems with this prophecy...First, virgin in this verse is a mistranslation of the Hebrew word "almah", which actually means "young woman". A young woman is not necessarily a virgin.  "Bethulah" would have been the correct word to use if the author meant virgin.  Second, nowhere in the New Testament is Jesus referred to as Immanuel.

Isaiah 17:1 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.

Damascus is still inhabited today with over a million people, and hardly a ruinous heap.

Isaiah 19:4-5 And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts. And the waters shall fail from the sea, and the river shall be wasted and dried up.

The river mentioned here is the Nile. The Nile is still one of Egypt's greatest natural resource.

Isaiah 19:18 In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the LORD of hosts; one shall be called, The city of destruction.

The Canaanite language has never been spoken in Egypt, and is now an extinct.

Isaiah 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.

There are uncircumcised people living in Jerusalem even today.

Ezekiel 29:10-11 Behold, therefore I am against thee, and against thy rivers, and I will make the land of Egypt utterly waste and desolate, from the tower of Syene even unto the border of Ethiopia. No foot of man shall pass through it, nor foot of beast shall pass through it, neither shall it be inhabited forty years.

Never in its long history has Egypt ever been uninhabited for forty years.

Amos 9:15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.

Many times, Jews have been pulled up out of their land. The ownership of their land is still being fought for.

Jonah 3:4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.

Nineveh was never overthrown. Why? Because God changed his mind in verse 3:10, despite what Malachi 3:6, Numbers 23:19 and Ezekiel 24:14 says about God never changing his mind.

Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Zechariah 11:12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.

Christians say that this prophecy is was fulfilled when Judas received 30 pieces of silver for betraying Jesus.  Matthew 27:9 recites this verse, but incorrectly credits Jeremiah with the prophecy.

Matthew 1:22-23 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Again, Jesus is never referred to as Emmanuel (Immanuel).

Matthew 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.

Nowhere in the Old Testament is such a prophecy found, so how could such a one be fulfilled?

Matthew 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

There is no passage in the Old Testament that can be attributed to what Jesus is saying here.

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Jesus states that all the signs marking the end of the world in Matthew 24 would be fulfilled before his generation ended. That generation ended 2000 years ago, and the world has not come to an end, neither has all those signs been fulfilled.

Matthew 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value.

This prophecy was never spoken by Jeremiah.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Jesus tells the high priest that he would see his second coming. The high priest is long dead, and Jesus hasn't returned yet.


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## bullethead (Sep 27, 2017)

welderguy said:


> I gotta tap out on this one.
> This has gone to a whole new level of low.


Tapping out is your only option since you are unable to back up your statements or be honest.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 27, 2017)

welderguy said:


> I gotta tap out on this one.
> This has gone to a whole new level of low.


And your dishonesty and playing dumb took it there.
You shouldn't come back until you are willing to be honest and forthright.
Like we are with you.


----------



## 660griz (Sep 27, 2017)

660Griz 6:60 Behold, a woman will give birth to a son and name him. 

Voila!


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## welderguy (Sep 27, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Its sad when the answer to the most basic, simple math question horrifies you enough to the point of dishonesty.
> He knows what the answer to the question is.
> When you have to play dumb and be dishonest, and that is what he is doing, what does that say about your beliefs?



Ok, I'm back.

First of all I'm not playing dumb(I may be dumb but I'm not playing), and I'm definitely not being dishonest ,that I know of.

I think there's some kind of breakdown in our communication here.

Let me try this:
God told the Hebrews in Deut.18 how to discern false prophets from true ones. He basically told them whatever the prophet of God foretold would come to pass. He had to be right every time. If ever there was a prophet that said something would happen at such and such time and it did not, then that prophet was a false one.

It's that simple. No math involved, and no dishonesty.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 27, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Ok, I'm back.
> 
> First of all I'm not playing dumb(I may be dumb but I'm not playing), and I'm definitely not being dishonest ,that I know of.
> 
> ...


I am aware of what the Bible says.
That doesn't change the fact that someone, anyone cant be 100% accurate until what they said has come to pass.
If it does, THEN they were 100% accurate. If it doesn't, then they were not 100% accurate.

That's not my opinion, its not my interpretation, its not a "trick", its just a simple fact.

If you had to weld something in 10 different spots, you are not 100% done until you weld all 10.
Not 1, not 5, not 9, not 9 and you'll do the 10th one some time in the future.....
All10.
That's what 100% means.

Once again, YOUR statement -


> The test of a true prophet of God is he must be accurate 100% every time.


The test is not over until its been determined if he was 100% accurate or not.

If that clashes with your beliefs, its not my fault or my logic that is causing the clash.


----------



## welderguy (Sep 27, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> I am aware of what the Bible says.
> That doesn't change the fact that someone, anyone cant be 100% accurate until what they said has come to pass.
> If it does, THEN they were 100% accurate. If it doesn't, then they were not 100% accurate.
> 
> ...



Here's why you're not getting it:

Ok, forget the number of welds(that's irrelevant).
If I made any number of welds and one of them failed inspection, then I'm a failure.

It's all about every one that I did being code(no failures)

Now apply that to our conversation.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 27, 2017)

> welderguy;10908632]Here's why you're not getting it:
> 
> Ok, forget the number of welds(that's irrelevant).
> If I made any number of welds and one of them failed inspection, then I'm a failure.
> ...


Sure.
1. The number of welds is absolutely relevant.
If your welding test said you had to make 10 up to code welds and you did 9 absolutely perfect welds you still haven't finished the test yet. You haven't done 100% of the 10 welds required. You haven't passed or failed yet because you haven't finished the test yet.
Just as -
If a prophet prophesizes 10 things and 1 of those things takes place in the future, he hasn't passed or failed the test yet until the future gets here.
It doesn't matter if 9 of those prophesies were absolutely perfect, he's not 100% done with the test until the future gets here to determine if the 10th one comes true or not.


----------



## welderguy (Sep 27, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Sure.
> 1. The number of welds is absolutely relevant.
> If your welding test said you had to make 10 up to code welds and you did 9 absolutely perfect welds you still haven't finished the test yet. You haven't done 100% of the 10 welds required. You haven't passed or failed yet because you haven't finished the test yet.
> Just as -
> ...



I get what you're saying as it applies to welding, but this is not the case with the discerning of a prophet. God's standard for a prophet, according to Deut.18 is that you look at his track record. If he has got any failures in his fulfilments, then he's to be rejected.

God's not saying wait for future fulfilments to see.He's saying look at the past ones. Make sense?


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 27, 2017)

welderguy said:


> I get what you're saying as it applies to welding, but this is not the case with the discerning of a prophet. God's standard for a prophet, according to Deut.18 is that you look at his track record. If he has got any failures in his fulfilments, then he's to be rejected.
> 
> God's not saying wait for future fulfilments to see.He's saying look at the past ones. Make sense?


If he's saying look at the past ones then what about the ones that were prophesized to take place in the future?
You can't look in to the future can you?
Again you said -


> The test of a true prophet of God is he must be accurate 100% every time


. 
"100% every time" (your words) would include any prophesies the prophet made about the future.
100% every time = all of them. Past, present and future.

Sounds to me like you are trying to change your words now so they get around the problem you are having here. First its "100% every time" now its " the past ones".
If you are trying to change your words that's an indication that its your words that are causing the problem.


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## bullethead (Sep 27, 2017)

And i dang near filled a page of prophesies that are false and did not come true and cannot come true.
They are in the bible.
They are false.
There is not a 100% accuracy rate within the ones that should have happened already, let alone the ones that are supposed to happen.

Scripture is false, full of errors and just plain wrong.

I showed them to you Welder. They came from scripture.  Now, what is your excuse?


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## ambush80 (Sep 27, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> If he's saying look at the past ones then what about the ones that were prophesized to take place in the future?
> You can't look in to the future can you?
> Again you said -
> .
> ...



I'll see if I can help, Walt.

Let's say there are 100 prophesies in the Bible.  90 of them have come to pass and have been true.  What percent of the prophesies have been proven true?

90 of 100.  That's 90% of them.  

Welder is saying "Of the 90% of the prophesies, 100% of them came true". 

_ALL_ of them (100) have not come true yet.


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## ambush80 (Sep 27, 2017)

So much for the math lesson.  None of the prophesies have come true.  They were vague enough to apply to anything or they were reverse engineered at a later date.


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## bullethead (Sep 27, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> So much for the math lesson.  None of the prophesies have come true.  They were vague enough to apply to anything or they were reverse engineered at a later date.



If the prophesies of the OT came to fruition the Jews would be hailing a Messiah too.

The later Christian writers wrote the stories to try to fulfill the OT prophesies and they couldn't even get that right knowing the requirements ahead of time.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 27, 2017)

I've posted links in previous threads that have shown other people who have actually fulfilled more prophesies than Jesus, and the Jews gave them a close but no cigar rating.
I really wish Welder would research his religious history. I don't want him to change his faith, but to be informed before making these constant baseless comments would save so much bandwith.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 27, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> I'll see if I can help, Walt.
> 
> Let's say there are 100 prophesies in the Bible.  90 of them have come to pass and have been true.  What percent of the prophesies have been proven true?
> 
> ...





> The test of a true prophet of God is he must be accurate 100% every time


Our discussion is about the above.
That statement is not about the prophecies in the Bible or how many of them came true or not.
Its about the requirements necessary (passing the test of 100% accuracy) to be a true prophet of God.
If a prophet prophesizes something about the future the requirement of 100% accuracy hasn't been met until if/when that happens. Therefore the prophet is not a true prophet of God.... yet.

Its quite possible that's not what he means but that's  what he said. So far Ive purposely included what he said in nearly every response Ive given him to give him the opportunity to say "Sorry I worded that wrong, what I mean is........"
So far he has pointed the finger at me, my logic and in every direction but looking at what he said.
So I'm not cutting him any slack by trying to figure out what he really means.
I think they call that "tough love".


----------



## NCHillbilly (Sep 27, 2017)

The Gospel of Clutch, Book of Pure Rock Fury, Chapter 5:

_Pan-amoebic algebra, breed bizarre bacteria.
What to do? Oh what to do?
Africanized killer bees, alabaster deities
Sip milk from spoons.

Within the ruins
Against the firth
The salamander has given birth.

Only red horse rainbows can save us.
Let them run wild and asunder.
Call the royal guards to let the people in, 
Flaming arrows by hundreds.

Run to the tower, and call out the magus.
If he has caused this, we'll tear out his pages.
Throw him in shackles, and remove his hands.

_


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 27, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Our discussion is about the above.
> That statement is not about the prophecies in the Bible or how many of them came true or not.
> Its about the requirements necessary (passing the test of 100% accuracy) to be a true prophet of God.
> If a prophet prophesizes something about the future the requirement of 100% accuracy hasn't been met until if/when that happens. Therefore the prophet is not a true prophet of God.... yet.
> ...



Fair enough.  Hold his feet to the fire.  It will do him some good.  I think he means "So far the Bible is batting 1000 (which it isn't) but there's more batting coming up" .


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 27, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> Fair enough.  Hold his feet to the fire.  It will do him some good.  I think he means "So far the Bible is batting 1000 (which it isn't) but there's more batting coming up" .


And what makes that yet....so important is asked I him to name the true prophets of God but that he cant include the ones who prophecies haven't come true yet.
That's what caused him to come unglued. He doesn't get that it was his own words is why he cant include them.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 27, 2017)

NCHillbilly said:


> The Gospel of Clutch, Book of Pure Rock Fury, Chapter 5:
> 
> _Pan-amoebic algebra, breed bizarre bacteria.
> What to do? Oh what to do?
> ...


Well now I gotta go listen to this


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 27, 2017)

NCHillbilly said:


> The Gospel of Clutch, Book of Pure Rock Fury, Chapter 5:
> 
> _Pan-amoebic algebra, breed bizarre bacteria.
> What to do? Oh what to do?
> ...



Whoa....


That stuff is hard, Breh.


----------



## welderguy (Sep 27, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> And what makes that yet....so important is asked I him to name the true prophets of God but that he cant include the ones who prophecies haven't come true yet.
> That's what caused him to come unglued. He doesn't get that it was his own words is why he cant include them.



You have deviated from my premise from the first post I mentioned prophets. I have been trying patiently to correct your deviation ever since, even through the ugliness, because I honestly thought you didn't understand what I meant. But now it seems that you knew what I meant all along, you just wanted to be argumentative. I do not appreciate that very much. It's hard enough to communicate through typed words without complicating it further with mindgames.

Ambush seemed to get it with ease, and without complicating it any further. Why couldn't you?


----------



## bullethead (Sep 27, 2017)

welderguy said:


> You have deviated from my premise from the first post I mentioned prophets. I have been trying patiently to correct your deviance ever since, even through the ugliness, because I honestly thought you didn't understand what I meant. But now it seems that you knew what I meant all along, you just wanted to be argumentative. I do not appreciate that very much. It's hard enough to communicate through typed words without complicating it further with mindgames.
> 
> Ambush seemed to get it with ease, and without complicating it any further. Why couldn't you?



Because you purposely included the ones that will happen in the future.
Walt did not include them, you did.


Now about all those that posted which are false......
Are you still going to ignore them and hope we forget about them taking your 100% claim WAY down??


----------



## NCHillbilly (Sep 27, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Well now I gotta go listen to this





ambush80 said:


> Whoa....
> 
> 
> That stuff is hard, Breh.



I am officially starting the Church of Clutch. All scripture here will be answered with verses from their teachings.


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 27, 2017)

NCHillbilly said:


> I am officially starting the Church of Clutch. All scripture here will be answered with verses from their teachings.



Tax free, baby!!!!!

I'll be applying for a Deacon or Elder position with a healthy stipend.


----------



## welderguy (Sep 27, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Because you purposely included the ones that will happen in the future.
> Walt did not include them, you did.
> 
> 
> ...



No sir.
I was excluding them.(see post 114)


----------



## red neck richie (Sep 27, 2017)

NCHillbilly said:


> The Gospel of Clutch, Book of Pure Rock Fury, Chapter 5:
> 
> _Pan-amoebic algebra, breed bizarre bacteria.
> What to do? Oh what to do?
> ...



Is that some sort of purse of something? Will your members be required to carry one?


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 27, 2017)

welderguy said:


> You have deviated from my premise from the first post I mentioned prophets. I have been trying patiently to correct your deviance ever since, even through the ugliness, because I honestly thought you didn't understand what I meant. But now it seems that you knew what I meant all along, you just wanted to be argumentative. I do not appreciate that very much. It's hard enough to communicate through typed words without complicating it further with mindgames.
> 
> Ambush seemed to get it with ease, and without complicating it any further. Why couldn't you?


Heres why I'm not going to cut you any slack anymore -


> your deviance





> you just wanted to be argumentative





> I do not appreciate that





> mind games


So YOU said something completely different than what you meant BUT it was allllllll my fault.
Then add to that how many times Ive requested that you think about what you say before you say it to us.
You are in discussion/debate. Its YOUR responsibility to say what you mean.
And you will notice I responded back to Ambush in the exact same way with the exact same response that I responded back to you.
I cant read your mind Welder. It works completely different from mine so I don't even try.
I just take what you say and figure that's what you meant.

And while I may be wrong, I don't believe for a second that you meant what Ambush suggested. I think you see a
convenient way out of what you said and you are jumping on it.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 27, 2017)

welderguy said:


> No sir.
> I was excluding them.(see post 114)


You cant exclude them and then claim 100% accuracy.

"Well I paid you 100% of what I owe you except for the $50 that I didn't pay you".


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 27, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> Whoa....
> 
> 
> That stuff is hard, Breh.


I like "Drink to the Dead"


----------



## bullethead (Sep 27, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> You cant exclude them and then claim 100% accuracy.
> 
> "Well I paid you 100% of what I owe you except for the $50 that I didn't pay you".


Precisely.

And take notice, he has still blatantly ignored the scripture that made prophetic claims and failed miserably. His 100% claim didnt miss by one or two, heck no future claims even needed to pad his 100% claim, these prophesies missed their marks and he refuses to acknowledge them.

Maybe he needs us to reword what he meant in a  better way so he can jump on that bandwagon.

All of the prophecies that we can say touch on extreme fringe of vague truth that could really be massaged to fit darn near anything  are the true ones. 
The ones that were made and are totally false we are not going to count and the ones that haven't happened yet dont count.
That's what he meant.


----------



## red neck richie (Sep 27, 2017)

I find this thread interesting. I am always intrigued to hear what the devil tells you to keep you away from the Father. I do appreciate the heads up to the latest tactics and lies.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Sep 27, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> I like "Drink to the Dead"



Everything Clutch is Good. Especially anything from the Elephant Riders or Blast Tyrant.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Sep 27, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> I find this thread interesting. I am always intrigued to hear what the devil tells you to keep you away from the Father. I do appreciate the heads up to the latest tactics and lies.



The Gospel of Clutch, Book of Blast Tyrant, Chapter 11:

_Did you not grant quarter to the daemon, giving treatment to its wounds?
And would you not consider it unnatural to be born outside the womb?
We eagerly await your response and your best defense.

Let us vote to dunk the witch in the river Styx and photograph the lye.
So in the shadow of Cerebus her spirit will reside.


She dances on black sand in the night
In her linen dress of white.

Bird in the fire, mouthful of sand.
King of the briar, mouthful of sand.

Shed not a tear for humanity,
Go fetch my stars.
_


----------



## welderguy (Sep 27, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Heres why I'm not going to cut you any slack anymore -
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't need your slack, but it would be nice to have your integrity.
And no, you can't read my mind, but after multiple attempts to clarify your misrepresentation of my post, I would think you'd start to catch on.
Here's what you do. You latch on to something you think is a contradiction. Then no matter how much you are shown that you've misunderstood, you will not relent. I got no time for that.
On top of that, when your posse starts chiming in and adding more confusion with diversion questions, then it's a real mess.

just needed to vent that. Now I'm done.
carry on


----------



## red neck richie (Sep 27, 2017)

NCHillbilly said:


> The Gospel of Clutch, Book of Blast Tyrant, Chapter 11:
> 
> _Did you not grant quarter to the daemon, giving treatment to its wounds?
> And would you not consider it unnatural to be born outside the womb?
> ...



John 8:44


----------



## NCHillbilly (Sep 27, 2017)

Gospel of Clutch, Book of The Elephant Riders, verse 8:

_On The Losing End Of A Wishbone,
And I Won't Pretend Not To Mind.

In The Morning The Weathercock Was Heard
Asking What We Had Learned Of The Earth.
"Is It A Round Place With Deserts And Oceans,
Housing As Many Winds As One Might Wish?"
We Were Standing By The Gate.
He Said, "Oh My, It's Getting Late!"
Then He Took Off Flying To The South
With A Black Snake In His Mouth.

You Can Shake It, Break It, Or Glue It Whole,
But There's No Two Ways About It With A Broke Wishbone
On The Losing End.
_


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 27, 2017)

welderguy said:


> I don't need your slack, but it would be nice to have your integrity.
> And no, you can't read my mind, but after multiple attempts to clarify your misrepresentation of my post, I would think you'd start to catch on.
> Here's what you do. You latch on to something you think is a contradiction. Then no matter how much you are shown that you've misunderstood, you will not relent. I got no time for that.
> On top of that, when your posse starts chiming in and adding more confusion with diversion questions, then it's a real mess.
> ...





> The test of a true prophet of God is he must be accurate 100% every time.


100% every time.
Not sometimes.
Not just in the past.
Not excluding the future.
Every time.
You contradicted yourself.

Keep blaming me though.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 27, 2017)

NCHillbilly said:


> Everything Clutch is Good. Especially anything from the Elephant Riders or Blast Tyrant.


I thought and even prided myself on the wide range of music I listen to.
But you've got me beat by a couple of country miles


----------



## hummerpoo (Sep 28, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Genesis 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.
> 
> Here God tells Isaac that his descendents (Hebrews) will be as numerous as the stars. Considering the number of stars there are in the universe, that would have to be on the order of 1020Jewish people.
> 
> ...





> © 1999 Derrick Miller



http://faithskeptic.50megs.com/prophecies.htm


----------



## 660griz (Sep 28, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> I find this thread interesting. I am always intrigued to hear what the devil tells you to keep you away from the Father. I do appreciate the heads up to the latest tactics and lies.



Could you elaborate please? 
What did the devil tell us to keep away from the Father?
How can anything be kept from an all knowing entity?
What tactics?
What lies?


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 28, 2017)

660griz said:


> Could you elaborate please?
> What did the devil tell us to keep away from the Father?
> How can anything be kept from an all knowing entity?
> What tactics?
> What lies?



One of us might be the ACTUAL Devil!!!!!!


----------



## 660griz (Sep 28, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> One of us might be the ACTUAL Devil!!!!!!


Might not be a bad gig. You are like a God that takes the blame for another God's creation. And, you can have fun.

Billy Joel lyric comes to mind. Laugh with the sinners, cry with the saints.
The sinners have much more funnnnnn.


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 28, 2017)

660griz said:


> Might not be a bad gig. You are like a God that takes the blame for another God's creation. And, you can have fun.
> 
> Billy Joel lyric comes to mind. Laugh with the sinners, cry with the saints.
> The sinners have much more funnnnnn.



The Devil is the lap dog of God.  The Devil doesn't do anything that God doesn't let him.  He's doing God's will.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 28, 2017)

hummerpoo said:


> http://faithskeptic.50megs.com/prophecies.htm



Yea....


----------



## bullethead (Sep 28, 2017)

welderguy said:


> I don't need your slack, but it would be nice to have your integrity.
> And no, you can't read my mind, but after multiple attempts to clarify your misrepresentation of my post, I would think you'd start to catch on.
> Here's what you do. You latch on to something you think is a contradiction. Then no matter how much you are shown that you've misunderstood, you will not relent. I got no time for that.
> On top of that, when your posse starts chiming in and adding more confusion with diversion questions, then it's a real mess.
> ...



Hey welder. No diversion here. Why won't you address the failed prophecy that has been posted?


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 28, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> One of us might be the ACTUAL Devil!!!!!!


Does having a Devil with Born to Raise He11 tattoo count?


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 28, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Does having a Devil with Born to Raise He11 tattoo count?




"You will know them by their fruits"


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 28, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> "You will know them by their fruits"


I better not mention the Grim Reaper one then


----------



## bullethead (Sep 28, 2017)

hummerpoo said:


> http://faithskeptic.50megs.com/prophecies.htm



Read his deconversion link on the home page.
Eerily similar to what I felt.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Sep 28, 2017)

A passage from the Book of RobotHive-Exodus that I often find comfort in:

Ribonucleic acid freak out, the power of prayer.
Long halls of science and all the lunatics committed there.
Robot Lords of Tokyo, SMILE TASTE KITTENS!
Did you not know that the royal hunting grounds are always forbidden?

Man alive the jive and lyrics,
Radioactive- don’t go near it.
Temple of Syrinx having the bake sale of the year.

Ain’t nothing you can do about it. Gonna be a big brawl over it
Like them little bitty babies in the king cakes.

10001110101.
10001110101.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 28, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Hey welder. No diversion here. Why won't you address the failed prophecy that has been posted?


Maybe he's figuring out which scripture to tell you to go read


----------



## bullethead (Sep 28, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Maybe he's figuring out which scripture to tell you to go read



Lol, probably.

I hope he is careful, most translated copies since the 1500s are copyrighted....hummerpoo may point that out to him.


----------



## red neck richie (Sep 28, 2017)

660griz said:


> Could you elaborate please?
> What did the devil tell us to keep away from the Father?
> How can anything be kept from an all knowing entity?
> What tactics?
> What lies?



There is not a standard line. Everyone is different. From what I have observed he tends to prey on weaknesses. Mostly insecurities and doubt. To some he tells there is no God.


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 28, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> There is not a standard line. Everyone is different. From what I have observed he tends to prey on weaknesses. Mostly insecurities and doubt. To some he tells there is no God.




Joel Osteen?  Jimmy Swaggart?


----------



## red neck richie (Sep 28, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> Joel Osteen?  Jimmy Swaggart?



God


----------



## red neck richie (Sep 28, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> Joel Osteen?  Jimmy Swaggart?



Although I like Osteens humor. Laughter is good for the soul.


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 28, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> God



Do you think that God could stop the Devil if he wanted to?


----------



## red neck richie (Sep 28, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> Do you think that God could stop the Devil if he wanted to?



Yes. This question is perplexing to me though. I have often wondered why he doesn't  destroy him. I wonder if all souls are eternal weather good or evil and its up to you where you want to spend eternity. Hence Heaven or he!!.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 28, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> Yes. This question is perplexing to me though. I have often wondered why he doesn't  destroy him. I wonder if all souls are eternal weather good or evil and its up to you where you want to spend eternity. Hence Heaven or he!!.



That goes against an all knowing god. God would know who is going where long before anyone is ever born. The persons choice would be known already. God would have made so many people to go to heaven and so many to go to h3ll if predestination is your thing. If not, then free will negates an all knowing god.


----------



## red neck richie (Sep 28, 2017)

bullethead said:


> That goes against an all knowing god. God would know who is going where long before anyone is ever born. The persons choice would be known already. God would have made so many people to go to heaven and so many to go to h3ll if predestination is your thing. If not, then free will negates an all knowing god.



Yeah he knows but you don't. Hence all the questions.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 28, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> Yeah he knows but you don't. Hence all the questions.



So which it?
Are we predestined and god knows all?
Or
Do we have free will and can surprise god?

Refer to your post #207  before answering.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 28, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> There is not a standard line. Everyone is different. From what I have observed he tends to prey on weaknesses. Mostly insecurities and doubt. To some he tells there is no God.


If someone would just prove there is a God practically no one would believe him


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 28, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> Yes. This question is perplexing to me though. I have often wondered why he doesn't  destroy him. I wonder if all souls are eternal weather good or evil and its up to you where you want to spend eternity. Hence Heaven or he!!.


There are a number of Christians, some right here on this forum, that will tell you that you don't have any choice at all.


----------



## hummerpoo (Sep 29, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Read his deconversion link on the home page.
> Eerily similar to what I felt.



I would assume many can say the same.


----------



## Israel (Sep 29, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> Yes. This question is perplexing to me though. I have often wondered why he doesn't  destroy him. I wonder if all souls are eternal weather good or evil and its up to you where you want to spend eternity. Hence Heaven or he!!.




Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;


----------



## Israel (Sep 29, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> There are a number of Christians, some right here on this forum, that will tell you that you don't have any_ choice _at all.



And _all men_ have suffered under the consequences of pride in believing they have made the right one, and the shame of learning they have made the wrong one.

The proud use shame as their as their instrument to oppress the weak, thinking by it they will be kept from shame. Until they see the one who walked as weakest among us. The coin of this realm cannot be handled without consequence...and it is always two sided. "Heads, I win, tails ...you...lose"

For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. _For we also are weak in him_, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 29, 2017)

Israel said:


> And _all men_ have suffered under the consequences of pride in believing they have made the right one, and the shame of learning they have made the wrong one.
> 
> The proud use shame as their as their instrument to oppress the weak, thinking by it they will be kept from shame. Until they see the one who walked as weakest among us. The coin of this realm cannot be handled without consequence...and it is always two sided. "Heads, I win, tails ...you...lose"
> 
> For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. _For we also are weak in him_, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.


Israel, I'll be honest with you, I don't have a clue what your point is but neither do I want to just ignore what you said.
Richie said this -


> I wonder if all souls are eternal weather good or evil and its up to you where you want to spend eternity. Hence Heaven or he!!.


The part in red signifies choice. He wonders if its "up to you" where you end up for eternity.
I merely responded that there are Christians here who believe it's not up to you, that you don't have a choice of where you end up. You were born with that choice already made for you. You were born for he11 or you were born for heaven.
Thats it.
Your post contains pride, shame, suffering consequences, oppression, coin tosses, crucifixion, weakness, power....
If that's just a commentary about "choice" ..... ok.
If its meant to address what I said... I don't have a clue what your point is. 
Help me out here.


----------



## Israel (Sep 29, 2017)

On The Losing End Of A Wishbone,
And I Won't Pretend Not To Mind.


Where did the enticement to play for it begin...? Where was that choice presented?

Can I not play?

What sucker punched the truth of contentment and presented what appeared more...but must always and only be less?

Certain considerations have shown the poverty of: "If I have get right god, I get the right prize!"


----------



## bullethead (Sep 29, 2017)

That clears it up


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 29, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> Yes. This question is perplexing to me though. I have often wondered why he doesn't  destroy him. I wonder if all souls are eternal weather good or evil and its up to you where you want to spend eternity. Hence Heaven or he!!.


I used to wonder about that too. All I could come up with for possible answers were -
1. Cant
2. Doesn't want to
3. God doesn't exist
4. The Devil doesn't exist
5. Neither God or the Devil exist

Wasnt sure which one was right but it had to be one of them.
#2 used to bother me the most.


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 29, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> I used to wonder about that too. All I could come up with for possible answers were -
> 1. Cant
> 2. Doesn't want to
> 3. God doesn't exist
> ...



I'll play Jesus' advocate.

The predestination folks have solved the problem in the most logically consistent but morally reprehensible way:

6. God is sovereign.  He causes the Devil to do His bidding and  he creates some souls for eternal darnation.  It may sound evil to us but we trust that all things are to His glory, even the stuff we consider cruel and unjust.  

I completely understand the logic of this position.  I don't think they should use the word "loving" to describe some of the reprehensible things that their God does.  Maybe they should just call it "righteous".  (By the way, I'm assuming the existence of the Christian God for arguments sake; like wondering how fast Superman can fly or wondering why he ever walks anywhere).


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 29, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> I'll play Jesus' advocate.
> 
> The predestination folks have solved the problem in the most logically consistent but morally reprehensible way:
> 
> ...





> It may sound evil to us


Theres a reason it sounds evil to you.


> but we trust that all things are to His glory, even the stuff we consider cruel and unjust.


You are accepting what you consider cruel and unjust for the glory of something you cant even prove to exist.
If you can live with that go for it.
I cant and wont.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 29, 2017)

By the way Ambush I think it would be a great exercise if the A/As and the As here would swap positions and debate it. Ive considered making a post suggesting exactly that.
From what Ive seen of the absolute emotional dependence of the As, it would be a complete flop so I haven't suggested it.


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 29, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Theres a reason it sounds evil to you.
> 
> You are accepting what you consider cruel and unjust for the glory of something you cant even prove to exist.
> If you can live with that go for it.
> I cant and wont.



I've got to admit, if I were to "fall off the cliff" and buy into that stuff it sure would give a perspective that would be comforting.  Imaging falling in love with the Sky Daddy.  "He loves me and I love Him.  I think about Him all day.  I think about Him when I'm scared and confused or when I feel weak and He always helps me and never let's me down.  I'm nothing without Him but at least I'm a nothing with a purpose because if Him."

Gosh, I sound like Isreal....


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 29, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> I've got to admit, if I were to "fall off the cliff" and buy into that stuff it sure would give a perspective that would be comforting.  Imaging falling in love with the Sky Daddy.  "He loves me and I love Him.  I think about Him all day.  I think about Him when I'm scared and confused or when I feel weak and He always helps me and never let's me down.  I'm nothing without Him but at least I'm a nothing with a purpose because if Him."
> 
> Gosh, I sound like Isreal....


And I understand that position completely.
But what goes along with it is what you have to think/believe about other people and using your example above ignoring what you believe to be evil and unjust for the prize you get at the end.
The ultimate in selfishness in my opinion.


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## ambush80 (Sep 29, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> And I understand that position completely.
> But what goes along with it is what you have to think/believe about other people and using your example above ignoring what you believe to be evil and unjust for the prize you get at the end.
> The ultimate in selfishness in my opinion.



I don't fault people from doing things to help them cope.  I fault them for not trying to find a way to cope that doesn't require believing in something false.


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## WaltL1 (Sep 29, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> I don't fault people from doing things to help them cope.  I fault them for not trying to find a way to cope that doesn't require believing in something false.





> I don't fault people from doing things to help them cope.


Agreed.
I think we all do in a way whether it be fishing, family, a favorite hobby etc. 


> I fault them for not trying to find a way to cope that doesn't require believing in something false.


For me this is lower on the list than what I mentioned in the above post. If it only affects the individual I don't give a hoot what false thing they believe in.
Its when it determines how other people are viewed, treated etc. that matters more to me.
Ask 10 Christians what they think about gay marriage and at least 9 of the responses will start with "God says....."


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## ambush80 (Sep 30, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Agreed.
> I think we all do in a way whether it be fishing, family, a favorite hobby etc.
> 
> For me this is lower on the list than what I mentioned in the above post. If it only affects the individual I don't give a hoot what false thing they believe in.
> ...



If someone wants to truly believe in Santa Clause I don't suppose that would affect the way they interact with society. I guess  it might even make them a better person, the whole "He sees you when your sleeping..." thing.  Well, that might actually mess someone up psychologically. If it makes them less likely to do harm for fear of what Santa sees them do then it's a odd net plus, I suppose.  

Same goes for Jesus, as long as they're believing in the hippie, peaceful, lamb carrying Jesus, I think it might be a strange net positive to their behavior.  It's really the cruel and barbaric book that I have a problem with.  It's almost as if the Jesus is a different person than the God in the Bible.  How would Jesus have responded to an individual that he knew was a Vessel of Wrath?  certainly Jesus would know upon interacting with a poor soul that they were destined to fry.  Does he love them?  Does he pity them?  Whatever Jesus did is what believers are supposed to follow, I suppose.


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## WaltL1 (Sep 30, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> If someone wants to truly believe in Santa Clause I don't suppose that would affect the way they interact with society. I guess  it might even make them a better person, the whole "He sees you when your sleeping..." thing.  Well, that might actually mess someone up psychologically. If it makes them less likely to do harm for fear of what Santa sees them do then it's a odd net plus, I suppose.
> 
> Same goes for Jesus, as long as they're believing in the hippie, peaceful, lamb carrying Jesus, I think it might be a strange net positive to their behavior.  It's really the cruel and barbaric book that I have a problem with.  It's almost as if the Jesus is a different person than the God in the Bible.  How would Jesus have responded to an individual that he knew was a Vessel of Wrath?  certainly Jesus would know upon interacting with a poor soul that they were destined to fry.  Does he love them?  Does he pity them?  Whatever Jesus did is what believers are supposed to follow, I suppose.





> Same goes for Jesus, as long as they're believing in the hippie, peaceful, lamb carrying Jesus, I think it might be a strange net positive to their behavior.


I would agree BUT -


> It's really the cruel and barbaric book that I have a problem with.


They seem to go together like peas and carrots.
I haven't met a Jesus believer that didn't believe in the Bible also.
I would imagine there is, I just haven't met/talked with them.
So in my experience yes I certainly have met those who's personal life certainly improved, which in turn improved how they interacted with loved ones/those in their circle, but then add in what the Bible says about those not in their circle/different beliefs/different lifestyles ........... I'm not sure how the math works out in the end.


> Whatever Jesus did is what believers are supposed to follow, I suppose.


I think this is where the whole Trinity thing might complicate things.
Jesus hung out with the hookers and "undesirables".
God committed near genocide.
One in the same?
Not one in the same?


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## bullethead (Sep 30, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> I would agree BUT -
> 
> They seem to go together like peas and carrots.
> I haven't met a Jesus believer that didn't believe in the Bible also.
> ...


Take what is written in the OT about prophesy and try to make the new writing fit. While at it... take all that fire and brimstone, hateful, jealous, vengeful, smite god and make him more likable.  Must keep the old-school fear god in the mix but have to introduce a more likeable version.  It cannot be be the same guy so we will make his seperate Son for some things but one-in-the-same for others. Hey while we are at it... what about a Ghost...ya know a Spirit to the Spirits....seperate from the other two but ya know what...the same too. Even though god is everywhere, except Nod and a few other places....we now need more of him with different personalities and traits and feelings....
 If the people will buy two they will love a multipersonality god.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 1, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Take what is written in the OT about prophesy and try to make the new writing fit. While at it... take all that fire and brimstone, hateful, jealous, vengeful, smite god and make him more likable.  Must keep the old-school fear god in the mix but have to introduce a more likeable version.  It cannot be be the same guy so we will make his seperate Son for some things but one-in-the-same for others. Hey while we are at it... what about a Ghost...ya know a Spirit to the Spirits....seperate from the other two but ya know what...the same too. Even though god is everywhere, except Nod and a few other places....we now need more of him with different personalities and traits and feelings....
> If the people will buy two they will love a multipersonality god.



Slow evolution/de-evolution back into the Greco-Roman god model. Zeus, Hera, Athena, Ares, Aphrodite, Bacchus, etc-a different god for each human personality trait; a god for everyone and all. It gets old just having Zeus the smiter throwing thunderbolts at you all the time.


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## ambush80 (Oct 1, 2017)

NCHillbilly said:


> Slow evolution/de-evolution back into the Greco-Roman god model. Zeus, Hera, Athena, Ares, Aphrodite, Bacchus, etc-a different god for each human personality trait; a god for everyone and all. It gets old just having Zeus the smiter throwing thunderbolts at you all the time.



http://www.bu.edu/arion/archive/volume-18/colin_wells_how_did_god_get-started/


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## bullethead (Oct 1, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> http://www.bu.edu/arion/archive/volume-18/colin_wells_how_did_god_get-started/



Fantastic article.


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## TripleXBullies (Oct 2, 2017)

I think it's highly likely that many spiritual beliefs would come back. Specifically Christianity? IDK.

I think it's equally possible that a lot of science could go in a different direction. The people who made scientific breakthroughs allowed themselves to thinking outside of the construct that had already been built. If you remove the construct I would think you could get different results. I think about energy technology. If we deleted science, would humanity go back to fossil fuels in a few thousand years? Maybe not. 



bullethead said:


> Ok, so if all memories and traces of Christianity was somehow erased with a big shake of the Etch-O-Sketch....No no, even more believable an asteriod hits the earth and the fires and destruction wipe out all tangible books and carvings and statues of every single religion and there were no people left that knew anything about the religions except for a handful of survivors that literally are clueless to religion.....is your god gonna come visit them and set them straight? Will your god "inspire" a handful of them so that they write the new stories the same way as the ones that were lost?
> Or
> Is it possible that due to human nature they may eventually come up with their own god(s) and stories and ways of who and how to worship?


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## ambush80 (Oct 2, 2017)

So I've been thinking about this hypothetical situation in two ways.  The first is from the angle of starting out from the beginning, from the big bang to when hominids first developed the ability to conceive of God(s).  There have been many compelling theories about how superstitions get formed as a result of our propensity to overreact to potentially harmful stimulus.  As as survival instinct, it's better to mistakenly over react to a shaking bush or a coil of rope in a dark corner.  We attribute agency to phenomena that we don't understand because it's adaptive.  So I imagine if the same type of evolution happened again, a hominid like ourselves would develop a sense of God(s).  A great proof of the Christian God would be if we came in contact with extra terrestrials and they also believed in Jesus.  That would just about seal the deal as far as the truth of the Gospel.  If they came up with God(s) that would certainly prove that there's something similar about our brains or the nature of consciousness that gives rise to deism.  

The other scenario where this thought experiment might occur would be some kind of apocalyptic event that wiped out all traces of technology and history but we were already evolved into modern Homo Sapien Sapiens.  In that case I think that people would quickly resume the pursuit of science and it would take the same path as it did prior to the apocalypse.  I don't think deism would develop again since we would already have sufficient mental capability to bypass the original need for religious superstition.


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## hummerpoo (Oct 3, 2017)

And we all know that faith is grounded in want of sufficient mental function?


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## Israel (Oct 3, 2017)

All manufactured god, and gods of comprehension to the end of _a utility_ are already passing away. No need to propose an experiment which is already convened.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 3, 2017)

hummerpoo said:


> And we all know that faith is grounded in want of sufficient mental function?


I didn't know that. I've even argued against it.
But if you say so...


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## WaltL1 (Oct 3, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> So I've been thinking about this hypothetical situation in two ways.  The first is from the angle of starting out from the beginning, from the big bang to when hominids first developed the ability to conceive of God(s).  There have been many compelling theories about how superstitions get formed as a result of our propensity to overreact to potentially harmful stimulus.  As as survival instinct, it's better to mistakenly over react to a shaking bush or a coil of rope in a dark corner.  We attribute agency to phenomena that we don't understand because it's adaptive.  So I imagine if the same type of evolution happened again, a hominid like ourselves would develop a sense of God(s).  A great proof of the Christian God would be if we came in contact with extra terrestrials and they also believed in Jesus.  That would just about seal the deal as far as the truth of the Gospel.  If they came up with God(s) that would certainly prove that there's something similar about our brains or the nature of consciousness that gives rise to deism.
> 
> The other scenario where this thought experiment might occur would be some kind of apocalyptic event that wiped out all traces of technology and history but we were already evolved into modern Homo Sapien Sapiens.  In that case I think that people would quickly resume the pursuit of science and it would take the same path as it did prior to the apocalypse.  I don't think deism would develop again since we would already have sufficient mental capability to bypass the original need for religious superstition.


I'm not convinced it wouldn't.
Until there is a definitive/factual answer to how we all got here I see some percentage of "we" coming right back up with a god/power of some sort.
I just think the story wouldn't contain the people into pillars of salt or staffs into snakes type stuff.
"I don't know" is just unacceptable to some.


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## Israel (Oct 3, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> So I've been thinking about this hypothetical situation in two ways.  The first is from the angle of starting out from the beginning, from the big bang to when hominids first developed the ability to conceive of God(s).  There have been many compelling theories about how superstitions get formed as a result of our propensity to overreact to potentially harmful stimulus.  As as survival instinct, it's better to mistakenly over react to a shaking bush or a coil of rope in a dark corner.  We attribute agency to phenomena that we don't understand because it's adaptive.  So I imagine if the same type of evolution happened again, a hominid like ourselves would develop a sense of God(s).  A great proof of the Christian God would be if we came in contact with extra terrestrials and they also believed in Jesus.  That would just about seal the deal as far as the truth of the Gospel.  If they came up with God(s) that would certainly prove that there's something similar about our brains or the nature of consciousness that gives rise to deism.
> 
> The other scenario where this thought experiment might occur would be some kind of apocalyptic event that wiped out all traces of technology and history but we were already evolved into modern Homo Sapien Sapiens.  In that case I think that people would quickly resume the pursuit of science and it would take the same path as it did prior to the apocalypse.  I don't think deism would develop again since we would already have sufficient mental capability to bypass the original need for religious superstition.





> I didn't know that. I've even argued against it.
> But if you say so...



I am assuming that was Hummer's reference?


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## WaltL1 (Oct 3, 2017)

Israel said:


> I am assuming that was Hummer's reference?


I would assume so.
I was paying attention more to what he said which was about faith.


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## ambush80 (Oct 3, 2017)

Israel said:


> I am assuming that was Hummer's reference?



I rethought the second part and have concluded that we are still very much under the influence of our baser instincts like tribalism.  We've begun to reject those notions or at least compartmentalize them but in a "reboot" situation I anticipate that we might revert to our instincts.  I'm afraid deities would arise again for similar reasons that they did during our evolutionary past.  They just might be a byproduct of how our meat, particularly the meat in our heads, is arranged.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 3, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> I rethought the second part and have concluded that we are still very much under the influence of our baser instincts like tribalism.  We've begun to reject those notions or at least compartmentalize them but in a "reboot" situation I anticipate that we might revert to our instincts.  I'm afraid deities would arise again for similar reasons that they did during our evolutionary past.  They just might be a byproduct of how our meat, particularly the meat in our heads, is arranged.


Good point.
Might be able to wipe the slate clean but the slate is still there.


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## red neck richie (Oct 3, 2017)

bullethead said:


> So which it?
> Are we predestined and god knows all?
> Or
> Do we have free will and can surprise god?
> ...



Bullet I'm not going to play checkers with you. You know my position. Continue to play uno with Welder. You wont drag me in. I don't know why you cant have a normal discussion without all the animosity. I like discussions with Walt and Ambush. We can discuss things without being so condescending and personal. Its good back and forth discussion. The only reason I come on this site is because I'm curious as why you don't believe. And yes to share my experiences and beliefs as you share yours. Sorry I didn't respond to your question earlier but I was in the woods all weekend enjoying Creation.


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## red neck richie (Oct 3, 2017)

So my 18yo daughter comes and asks me Dad will you ever go to another concert after what happened in Las Vegas. I answered absolutely. I started quoting Psalms 23:4 to her and she finished the quote and said I understand. One proud papa.


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## bullethead (Oct 3, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> Bullet I'm not going to play checkers with you. You know my position. Continue to play uno with Welder. You wont drag me in. I don't know why you cant have a normal discussion without all the animosity. I like discussions with Walt and Ambush. We can discuss things without being so condescending and personal. Its good back and forth discussion. The only reason I come on this site is because I'm curious as why you don't believe. And yes to share my experiences and beliefs as you share yours. Sorry I didn't respond to your question earlier but I was in the woods all weekend enjoying Creation.


That's ok. I like to converse with honest people.
I dont drag anyone into anything. You either answer or you don't.  Most don't when the truth is something other than what they have been spewing. If they do answer it is a reply that has nothing to do with what was asked. They dont like to get the bottom of their sandals wet trying to step out of the corner they painted themselves into. They wait for it to dry and try to sneek out hoping nobody notices.
I notice.


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## red neck richie (Oct 3, 2017)

bullethead said:


> That's ok. I like to converse with honest people.
> I dont drag anyone into anything. You either answer or you don't.  Most don't when the truth is something other than what they have been spewing. If they do answer it os a reply that has nothing to do with what was asked. They dont like to het the bottom of their sandals wet trying to step out of the corner they painted themselves into. They wait for it to dry and try to sneek out hoping nobody notices.
> I notice.


Its weird you brought up sandals. Perhaps you wash feet before entering you abode?


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## bullethead (Oct 3, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> Its weird you brought up sandals. Perhaps you wash feet before entering you abode?



It is not weird. It was on purpose.


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## Israel (Oct 4, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> I rethought the second part and have concluded that we are still very much under the influence of our baser instincts like tribalism.  We've begun to reject those notions or at least compartmentalize them but in a "reboot" situation I anticipate that we might revert to our instincts.  I'm afraid deities would arise again for similar reasons that they did during our evolutionary past.  They just might be a byproduct of how our meat, particularly the meat in our heads, is arranged.



Tribalism is just selfism writ large.

And that ain't going away by self's impetus.

That separated self is grasping like a mad man for anything to keep it afloat. And that frenetic activity is purposed to its sinking.


Float. 

Or not.

Jesus answered “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. Do not be amazed that I said, ‘You must be born again.’The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked. 

“You are Israel’s teacher, Jesus replied, “and do you not understand these things? Truly, truly, I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, and yet you people do not accept our testimony.

If I have told you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven — the Son of Man. Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life.

For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.


To some the cross remains a joke, a silly fable dredged up from the imagination. God knows what's "eating at man", and though man in himself would like to find it, like to wrap his hands around it, have it finally there beneath him grasped with secure and final grip upon its throat to squeeze the very being from it, and finally be free...this is entirely done by another. His being made willing to be all that troubles man, and be lifted up as that requires a sight no man can grasp at. He is Lord, and Savior. No one else. And He is nothing less.


No one is smart enough, nor has the _intellectual capability_ to consume Jesus Christ. Eating is done according to need, not by buffet preference.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 4, 2017)




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## 660griz (Oct 4, 2017)

Israel said:


> No one is smart enough, nor has the _intellectual capability_ to consume Jesus Christ. Eating is done according to need, not by buffet preference.



I'll pass.

Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.


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## Israel (Oct 4, 2017)

660griz said:


> I'll pass.
> 
> Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.



amen!


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## WaltL1 (Oct 4, 2017)

660griz said:


> I'll pass.
> 
> Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.


I'll never forget how horrified I would be when receiving the sacrament wafer that I would get the dry heaves right in front of the priest. For whatever reason the taste of it was one of those things that my body just didn't want to swallow. I literally would be petrified every time.
Fond memories


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 4, 2017)

I can see how being forced into participating in ritualistic cannibalism could be discomfiting to a child, even besides the unleavened bread.


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## ambush80 (Oct 4, 2017)

I remember sometimes getting a little tiny square of hard tack.  Looked like a hit of acid.  Maybe it was.


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## ambush80 (Oct 5, 2017)

Israel said:


> Tribalism is just selfism writ large.
> 
> And that ain't going away by self's impetus.
> 
> ...



Any of this only matters if the god you believe in, not the one Welder or Ritchie or Gem believe in (since they're all quite different) is real.  One could respond through the perspective of a Hindu or an indigenous person and it would be as meaningless to you as it would be to me.  Your perspective is equally meaningless to them and me.


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