# sumtoy chokes



## godevilducker (Feb 2, 2015)

Looking into buying one. What are yalls opinions and results?


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## whitetailfreak (Feb 2, 2015)

I have never heard a negative thing about William's products or customer service. Deal with confidence. I ordered a .665 for my Versa Max today.


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## Brianf (Feb 2, 2015)

I have 3 myself and love them. Give William a call you will l be glad you did.


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## turkeykirk (Feb 2, 2015)

Great guy who knows what he's talking about.


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## Killdee (Feb 3, 2015)

Good guy, he will make sure your satisfied.


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## gobblingghost (Feb 3, 2015)

I have 2 of them, great customer service.


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## hrstille (Feb 3, 2015)

Best in the business


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## davisd9 (Feb 3, 2015)

Been good to me.  Bought a choke that did not preform how I wanted and William exchanged it out for me to try another.  I have no complaints and would buy another!


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## J Gilbert (Feb 3, 2015)

I got a choke from William last year for my 20, it puts up a killer pattern and I've got friends that are looking to get chokes from him now.  I'll likely buy one of his duck chokes soon for wingshooting with the 12 too


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## Killdee (Feb 3, 2015)

I have a popgun with him now being threaded and D&Taped along with other stuff.


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## icdedturkes (Feb 3, 2015)

William builds a great choke and has service as good as anyone. Would not hesitate to recommend him..


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## OLDMOSS (Feb 5, 2015)

Sumtoy all the way


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## insanehunter (Feb 6, 2015)

I like mine!!!!!!!!!!


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## hotamighty (Feb 13, 2015)

Best choke I've ever shot! Drove over to his place one Saturday morning and he built my choke while I waited, then we took it out back and tested it. Plan on getting another one for my back up rig!


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## six (Feb 20, 2015)

I haven't been able to get in touch with him for a couple weeks.  Had a couple pm's back and for on another forum about a problem I had but he hasn't responded.  Figured it might have something to do with the convention or something.   Is he a member here as well?


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## 01Foreman400 (Feb 20, 2015)

six said:


> I haven't been able to get in touch with him for a couple weeks.  Had a couple pm's back and for on another forum about a problem I had but he hasn't responded.  Figured it might have something to do with the convention or something.   Is he a member here as well?


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## deast1988 (Feb 20, 2015)

01Foreman400 said:


>



. ;-) I like his choke tubes but I think I'll finally be gettin my gun back soon.


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## Squeaky (Feb 20, 2015)

What is his turn around time on a new choke order? I ordered a .562-5 on 2/13. I failed to ask how soon it would ship. No rush but would like it in hand before 3/14.


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## 01Foreman400 (Feb 20, 2015)

His user name on here is WFL.

http://forum.gon.com/member.php?u=57536


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## six (Feb 20, 2015)

01Foreman400 said:


>





deast1988 said:


> . ;-) I like his choke tubes but I think I'll finally be gettin my gun back soon.



Am I missing something?


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## 01Foreman400 (Feb 20, 2015)

Squeaky said:


> What is his turn around time on a new choke order? I ordered a .562-5 on 2/13. I failed to ask how soon it would ship. No rush but would like it in hand before 3/14.



Hope those weren't going to be used to shoot TSS thru.  If so he won't warranty them.


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## Killdee (Feb 20, 2015)

He's around today, I talked to him about my 220, said it would ship out first of the week. I think hes pretty busy.


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## stringmusic (Feb 20, 2015)

I ordered a choke for my browning A-5 yesterday, he told me it would ship first of next week.


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## six (Feb 20, 2015)

If any of y'all happen to speak to him let him know he has a pm on OG.


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## 01Foreman400 (Feb 20, 2015)

six said:


> If any of y'all happen to speak to him let him know he has a pm on OG.



He posted on OG this morning.  When did you send it?


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## six (Feb 20, 2015)

01Foreman400 said:


> He posted on OG this morning.  When did you send it?



I've sent three in the last two weeks.


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## 01Foreman400 (Feb 20, 2015)

six said:


> I've sent three in the last two weeks.



Maybe try calling him.


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## six (Feb 20, 2015)

I'd rather do pm's.  Usually by about noon I'm tired of my phone.


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## SCPO (Feb 20, 2015)

six said:


> I've sent three in the last two weeks.



what is OG forum?


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## 01Foreman400 (Feb 20, 2015)

SCPO said:


> what is OG forum?



Old Gobbler Forum.  Where I bought the 336 mount from you.


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## SCPO (Feb 20, 2015)

01Foreman400 said:


> Old Gobbler Forum.  Where I bought the 336 mount from you.



thanks. Now I know who you is.


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## WFL (Feb 21, 2015)

I have got back to every pm and email.  Now some emails come back say they cant be sent.  I have no clue why.  We also ship chokes once a week.  All mounts are being put on and shipped.


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## WFL (Feb 21, 2015)

Ok on other forum  someone said PM is messing up.  I know it has had problems logging in some.  Think they get over ran this time of year.  Now this one I answer PM this morning then get another one about the same thing.  So it is not working or folks are something.  So give us a call.  We are slammed on the phone so call back if we don't pick up.  Some phone calls leave a number some don't.


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## spydermon (Feb 21, 2015)

I read that you do not like TSS at all and it voids warranty?  Tell us more about that.  I don't want to damage myself or gun by shooting tss


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## WFL (Feb 21, 2015)

It has and will damage chokes. (guns next) Folks are tuning on a bomb.  (so much can go wrong)  Now I think if you load a small load and use bigger chokes you fine.  (I see folks loading smaller 1oz) That said you have folks loading big loads and getting small on chokes.(they killing paper not birds)  It has became folks call ask me about loads and chokes.  (I sale chokes not tss or load info)  Want me to trade out chokes (because load wrong or different load) .  When you have so many loads out you can not send a choke to them.  They end up dumping shot (money) on the ground and I end up losing money on trying to find them a choke.  Once you fire tss in choke it can not be sold for normal.  My deal is you buy choke of your choice and it is yours.  I will sale you a different one just like you buy more shot to shoot.


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## Hookedonhunting (Feb 21, 2015)

Ion the subject of chokes.....does anyone know the constriction of the STOCK FULL choke that comes with the SBE2?  I've yet to pattern it. (Brand new)


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## spydermon (Feb 22, 2015)

What chokes have been damaged?  I've not dern any of this posted that I can find andsurely ssomeone would say something unless it was error on loading.  What is happening to them?

Also what makes TSS make the choke not able to be normal again once fired through it? 

Sorry for the questions, but trying to better understand this before I load a bunch


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## WFL (Feb 22, 2015)

spydermon said:


> What chokes have been damaged?  I've not dern any of this posted that I can find andsurely ssomeone would say something unless it was error on loading.  What is happening to them?
> 
> Also what makes TSS make the choke not able to be normal again once fired through it?
> 
> Sorry for the questions, but trying to better understand this before I load a bunch



It harder then needs be.  In 20ga federal 7 kill as good or better.  Tss kills because of numbers.  
2nd  you get the hay Bubba affect watch this.  We are not cooking food we cooking a controlled explosion  beside your head. (Folks need to be careful).   At one time you only had a few loading it and for fun.

You read to shoot bigger chokes folks are going smaller.  (Time will tell)  Most have gone into punching paper not hunting birds. Other say look at the 20 inch.  20 inch is for ducks not turkey.   Turkey has a 2 to 3 inch head that needs a 10 inch ring placed on. 
I know one guy that loads 1 oz in a 20 and kills a limit every year.   No need in all the 15/8 and bigger other then waste shot.   
Now i feel it is a good thing in some case.  (410 28ga)  you dont have much to pick from in shells. Plus alot of 410 come fixed choke 28 dont have the small turkey chokes. 

To clear up I will not allow it to be fired on our range and will give no data on loads or how to load.  I will not trade out chokes.  (To much who/what/where and when)


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## spydermon (Feb 22, 2015)

So the TSS is harder than the choke.  Dang..that is not good!
Maybe Hal can come in and help out here.  He hasnt me tioned of any blow ups that I've heard..but I never asked either
 TSS kills because of numbers?  I thought it was opposite?  It killed because it was harder and penetrated better..but you have a lot more of them causing a lot of damage and the most penetration?

What's the hey bubba affect?


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## Nannyman (Feb 22, 2015)

Williams chokes strip the wad with rings. Shot could get to the choke. TSS is super hard. Another reason I say you don't need those chokes for TSS. He makes great chokes. Just not made for TSS.


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## Nannyman (Feb 22, 2015)

Also. Let's be clear, TSS is no contributor to "unsafe" loads. It is as safe if not safer. It's the guy filling the hull. 
Very much safer than the Nitro loads of the past, guaranteed safe by his "Holiness" on OG. 
I have posted on other sites and maybe not here, that you don't need William's chokes for TSS. A good extended choke without wad strippers, ports, and rifling, will get it done. 
Now. No offense to William as he is not a turkey hunter, but if you throw a 10" circle of pellets at a turkeys head at 40yds you can expect a miss or two. For no other reason than turkeys heads bob, a lot. "In Gatlinburg, a lot". Lol


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## 01Foreman400 (Feb 22, 2015)

If you shoot 1 oz. of TSS it's ok but if you shoot 1 5/8 oz. it's not?  

Hevi-shot and heavyweight are also harder than a barrel and the choke.  

What turkey hunter wouldn't want any shot outside the 10"?  It would be a bullet hole at 15-20 yards.


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## WFL (Feb 22, 2015)

no offense taken
I have had good luck with the buck shot chokes and water fowl chokes with tss.  It is not as small of choke and gives good even patterns.  Did a Nova in AL that had a 2oz load and 696 choke.  250 in 10 251 in 20.  The folks now are looking for smaller chokes and bigger loads.  (problem comes them)   Now I did not say it was not safe.  I said if it is loaded correct ok but you have so much going on with it.  The guys that came up with it most all shoot big chokes.  

I don't care what folks do with it.  I have just said I will not trade out chokes or warranty chokes.  I build same choke for five guns 2 get good patterns other 3 don't.  If they have different load or do something different it not work correct.

Yes the other shells are hard also.  Now that said I have had folks come by with shell loaded wrong.  I have seen choke beat up inside.  If the load is set up correct the shot should pass down the barrel and out choke in the wad.  So the chokes that are messed up are do to something wrong.


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## Nannyman (Feb 22, 2015)

Certainly not a machinist. Do you make any chokes without rings and rifling? I think if you do and only offer those for TSS shooters they would get a quality choke and also quality patterns and you get past the issues you speak of. The TSS loads just don't need really technical choke internals.


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## spydermon (Feb 22, 2015)

^ doubt that will happen.  That's been asked before.  Sure he could do it, but it would truly be a Sumtoy then.  Several chokes have the rings inside (Indian creek, tru go, and jebs just to name a few), but not sure of rifling in any.  There may be some somewhere, but I doubt he is interested in making any different type of choke.  A
If he did, I'd bet it would about the TSS nicely from what I see others shooting


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## WFL (Feb 23, 2015)

Nannyman said:


> Certainly not a machinist. Do you make any chokes without rings and rifling? I think if you do and only offer those for TSS shooters they would get a quality choke and also quality patterns and you get past the issues you speak of. The TSS loads just don't need really technical choke internals.





spydermon said:


> ^ doubt that will happen.  That's been asked before.  Sure he could do it, but it would truly be a Sumtoy then.  Several chokes have the rings inside (Indian creek, tru go, and jebs just to name a few), but not sure of rifling in any.  There may be some somewhere, but I doubt he is interested in making any different type of choke.  A
> If he did, I'd bet it would about the TSS nicely from what I see others shooting



we do make the chokes without the stops in them.  The buckshot chokes and waterfowl chokes don't have them.  Like said above it gives a good pattern.  Problem is that you have the hunters and the target shooters.   If you want to target shoot start after season don't wait to season starts.   It is not all the guys that shoot it.  You have the ones that hunt then the ones that call wanting to change because they read someone got 400 and they did not get but 390.  Then the one you ask why you want or need the load.  You get the I want to be able to kill him 60 yards are more.


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## spydermon (Feb 23, 2015)

I see what you're saying.  No need to ask "why" someone wants to shoot it though.... why wouldn't anyone shoot it that carrys a 20 or smaller?  I really wouldn't see the need in the 12, but its a no brainer in the 20 and smaller.  The fed loads are nice but some just want a few more shot in the kill zone.  For penetration, if those small pellets can go through a sheet of tin at 40 yards, then that is proof enough for me that they should kill turkeys all day and still have yardage judgment room for error.  The penetration tests Hal has posted are pretty nice.  That is plenty of reason for "why" people want to shoot it.


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## WFL (Feb 23, 2015)

spydermon said:


> I see what you're saying.  No need to ask "why" someone wants to shoot it though.... why wouldn't anyone shoot it that carrys a 20 or smaller?  I really wouldn't see the need in the 12, but its a no brainer in the 20 and smaller.  The fed loads are nice but some just want a few more shot in the kill zone.  For penetration, if those small pellets can go through a sheet of tin at 40 yards, then that is proof enough for me that they should kill turkeys all day and still have yardage judgment room for error.  The penetration tests Hal has posted are pretty nice.  That is plenty of reason for "why" people want to shoot it.



YES in smaller bore guns (410 & 28) I see needing. In a 20 it is a want more then need but you can double shot in a 10 with it.  Penetration is something that I will take fed 7's over 9's.  Now tss 7's or 8's are different. 
 Yup i don't have problems with the hunter.   The target shooting side of this is the problem.   Why do i ask why?  When you have someone that has a product that works. When you have someone that has numbers that will kill very very dead. That is why.  You end up working yourself and lose money trying to get 5 more shot.   
I will work with any target shoot but not out of my pocket.   Not this time of year when the hunters are needing my attention also.


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## hawglips (Feb 23, 2015)

WFL said:


> It harder then needs be.  In 20ga federal 7 kill as good or better.  Tss kills because of numbers.



Turkey shells kill by pellets penetrating the turkeys' vitals.   The head and neck is a relatively small target.

You get the best of all worlds with more pellets that penetrates the vitals.  

It's physically impossible for 15g/cc shot to be better than 18g/cc shot for turkeys. 

If Federal came out with a 7-1/2 or 8 size in their HWT shot, then they'd be cooking with grease.  As they have it now, the #7s' penetration energy out performs their shells' patterns by 20 yds or so.   Close that gap some and it's a crazy good shell.  But it would be more expensive to produce, so I can see why they aren't doing that.



WFL said:


> 2nd  you get the hay Bubba affect watch this.  We are not cooking food we cooking a controlled explosion  beside your head. (Folks need to be careful).   At one time you only had a few loading it and for fun.



TSS is safer and easier than hevishot, federal HWT15, HWT 13 to load. 

But I wouldn't expect anyone who has developed any shells with any of those type pellets to know that.

If guys want to load their own shells of any type; be it lead target loads or hevishot or steel from recipes that have already been developed, they need to follow the recipes.  If someone doesn't have enough sense to do that, better not ever load any of your own shells.

But word to the wise - there are manufactured shells out there that are way more dangerous than anything in any reloading manual or anything I've developed with TSS or HWT.  

If a Bubba follows the recipe - whether it be something from Lyman's 5th Edition, Ballistics, Precision, mine, or any other lab tested loads that will = safe shooting.  



WFL said:


> You read to shoot bigger chokes folks are going smaller.  (Time will tell)  Most have gone into punching paper not hunting birds. Other say look at the 20 inch.  20 inch is for ducks not turkey.   Turkey has a 2 to 3 inch head that needs a 10 inch ring placed on.



I don't understand this - shoot wider chokes, but look at the 10" only?   That is contradictory.   

30" is standard for wing  shooting pattern evaluations.

Lots of misses result from focusing on the 10" core of a turkey hunting pattern.  You only have 5" of radius with a 10" circle.  A turkey's head can move 5" real quick.  And it's real easy to pull off 5" with the shot.  

Folks can ignore the 20" when evaluating a pattern if they want to.  But IMO, it's a mistake to do that.   Looking at the 20" instead of just the 10" is the opposite of paper punching - it's about a hunting pattern.

The reason folks shoot big paper (usually 3' square or larger) when evaluating turkey load patterns, is to get more information to evaluate. 

The more you see of a pattern, the more information you have, and the better evaluation can be made about it.

When I shoot, I not only want to see the 20", but I want to see outside of that also.  It's about a pattern that is better for hunting - and 20" is twice as good to see than a 10" pattern for hunting.



WFL said:


> I know one guy that loads 1 oz in a 20 and kills a limit every year.   No need in all the 15/8 and bigger other then waste shot.



I know lots of guys shoot smaller loads than that and killing plenty of turkeys with it.  

"Need" is in the eye of the beholder.  Some folks figure there is no need for an expensive custom made choke, or $200 call, or a 12 ga, or whatever.


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## hawglips (Feb 23, 2015)

WFL said:


> It has and will damage chokes. (guns next) Folks are tuning on a bomb. .



Steel shot has and will damage chokes.  So has and will hevishot. 

If anyone has a choke or barrel that they couldn't bear to see a scratch in, don't shoot steel, hevishot, HWT or TSS through it.

I've shot more TSS through turkey chokes than anyone else most likely.  Many thousands of dollars worth.  And I've found one scratched choke as I was developing the loads by trial and error.  

Folks who don't shoot it or load don't know this, but those who do load it (with any of my recipes) know of the barrel protection included in the recipes that you aren't going to get with any factory shell.  

As for me, I don't shoot expensive chokes with TSS.  Those aren't needed.  Factory full chokes is all one needs a lot of times.


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## Spuriosity (Feb 25, 2015)

Tell it brother.


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## Boggs84 (Feb 25, 2015)

Sumtoy customs ( 912-237-4360)


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## M Sharpe (Feb 25, 2015)

Williams has always strived to make my guns shoot as good as possible. I have zero complaints about him or his costumer service. He has always taken the time to help in any way possible.


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## spydermon (Feb 25, 2015)

^ are you shooting TSS or factory ammo?


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## WFL (Feb 27, 2015)

I don't have a problem with folks that shoot it.  It is a free world and folks can do what they want.  I have just said I do not trade out chokes or warranty chokes with it is all.   I can not build a choke around it because of some many variables.  Now if you had one guy loading and one or two different loads it be different.  

Plus folks that have my chokes or other companies choke please ask whoever you buy shot form or get load info from if you need to go to bigger choke.  I have had guys call and say gun not shooting. (chokes from everyone)  Then you ask what size and some are shooting 650 to 665 chokes. (few 640)  Like Hal said you need a *MORE OPEN **CHOKE*.   Most the time we run 680 and bigger buckshot or waterfowl layout in it.  ____*NO STOPS*_____

My thing is for folks to have fun and be careful.


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## M Sharpe (Feb 27, 2015)

spydermon said:


> ^ are you shooting TSS or factory ammo?



I'm shooting factory loads! The ORP asked what was our opinions, so I posted mine.

I think I was the last person to move to lead #6 and the absolute last person to go to HTL shot! All I can say is how William has treated me when I go to his shop!! Don't think I will ever go to tss.


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## six (Feb 27, 2015)

Just got my new choke in today from Mr. William.  May give it a try tomorrow.


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## GLS (Feb 27, 2015)

I have nothing but good things to say about William Lambert of Sumtoy and Hal.  Both have enabled me to carry small gauge guns into the turkey woods and ditch my SBE and 835 and not feel undergunned.  William has developed a niche in "hotrodding" 20 gauge and .410 into reliable, lightweight turkey killers shooting tss 9's or commercial shells (20 gauge) to the extent that a 12 gauge is heavy overkill.  He has modified and tuned for me two Baikal MP-18 20's and two Yildiz single-shot .410s.  I think my Yildiz .410 was one of the first such guns modified into a 40 yard turkey killer.  Hal (hawglips) did the heavy lifting in designing and testing deadly loads in such a way that they have not harmed anything but turkeys.  Both men have made significant contributions to our passion and I am grateful to both.  I can't do without them. Thanks.  Gil


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## Killdee (Feb 27, 2015)

GLS said:


> I have nothing but good things to say about William Lambert of Sumtoy and Hal.  Both have enabled me to carry small gauge guns into the turkey woods and ditch my SBE and 835 and not feel undergunned.  William has developed a niche in "hotrodding" 20 gauge and .410 into reliable, lightweight turkey killers shooting tss 9's or commercial shells (20 gauge) to the extent that a 12 gauge is heavy overkill.  He has modified and tuned for me two Baikal MP-18 20's and two Yildiz single-shot .410s.  I think my Yildiz .410 was one of the first such guns modified into a 40 yard turkey killer.  Hal (hawglips) did the heavy lifting in designing and testing deadly loads in such a way that they have not harmed anything but turkeys.  Both men have made significant contributions to our passion and I am grateful to both.  I can't do without them. Thanks.  Gil



I agree


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## Gaswamp (Mar 1, 2015)

WFL said:


> I don't have a problem with folks that shoot it.  It is a free world and folks can do what they want.  I have just said I do not trade out chokes or warranty chokes with it is all.   I can not build a choke around it because of some many variables.  Now if you had one guy loading and one or two different loads it be different.
> 
> Plus folks that have my chokes or other companies choke please ask whoever you buy shot form or get load info from if you need to go to bigger choke.  I have had guys call and say gun not shooting. (chokes from everyone)  Then you ask what size and some are shooting 650 to 665 chokes. (few 640)  Like Hal said you need a *MORE OPEN **CHOKE*.   Most the time we run 680 and bigger buckshot or waterfowl layout in it.  ____*NO STOPS*_____
> 
> My thing is for folks to have fun and be careful.



I imagine that you are wide open these days


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## Efrank09 (Mar 1, 2015)

Just got my choke Friday. After talking to the guys at Sumtoy and all of the responses on the forums about them I am really excited to throw some shells through it. Great customer service!


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## deast1988 (Mar 1, 2015)

Hope to recieve my gun it's Been almost 3 months. Been told 3 times it's shipped. Must be busy this year.


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## 01Foreman400 (Mar 1, 2015)

Not the first time I've heard that.


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## deast1988 (Mar 1, 2015)

1st week of Jan to now. Guess I got lost in the shop.


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## deast1988 (Mar 1, 2015)

I Recieved confirmation that it had arrived too.


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## WFL (Mar 1, 2015)

deast1988 said:


> 1st week of Jan to now. Guess I got lost in the shop.



We get covered up.  Folks hold off to late to send stuff. (our fault because we don't have a clue how much help we need this time of year we try to keep the $$$ down on what we do for folks)   Now yours was ready then I found something else wrong with it that it was not sent in for.  I will mail it Monday the 3/2 if you don't want that fixed.  I try to make sure you have something that is easy to work with when you get them back.  This one the shell tube is bent.  Now I could mailed it back and let you worry about it or I can try to get it to the scope will true in without high dollar rings.  That was something I was doing just because.


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