# only jesus!!



## denise04 (Oct 31, 2008)

there is only 1 way to heaven thats through jesus christ there are many false religions today christians must be careful what they listen to and believe . some say you cant lose ure salvation thats not true. just because you become a christian dont mean you can still go on sinning, were not perfect thats true but when you willingly keep sinning and not repent then you stray away from god  jesus is the only way to heaven hes our high priest that goes to god the father for us. mary   cant take you to heaven , confessing to a priest cant take you to heaven only through the blood of jesus are we saved


----------



## rjcruiser (Oct 31, 2008)

Dawg, I'm trying to put on my winter weight to keep a little warmer in the stand.

Welcome to the forum denise.


----------



## Huntinfool (Oct 31, 2008)

I'll agree with the "only Jesus" part and leave the rest for the argument that's about to ensue.

Denise, I actually agree with pretty much all of that.  But I won't aruge the merits.  It's been done over and over again.  It's just not something that's going to get solved here.  But if you're up for it, have at it.  

Your opponents will be here shortly.


----------



## Lorri (Oct 31, 2008)

denise04 said:


> there is only 1 way to heaven thats through jesus christ there are many false religions today christians must be careful what they listen to and believe . some say you cant lose ure salvation thats not true. just because you become a christian dont mean you can still go on sinning, were not perfect thats true but when you willingly keep sinning and not repent then you stray away from god  jesus is the only way to heaven hes our high priest that goes to god the father for us. mary   cant take you to heaven , confessing to a priest cant take you to heaven only through the blood of jesus are we saved




My opinion I know - but I agree with you totally.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Oct 31, 2008)

denise04 said:


> there is only 1 way to heaven thats through jesus christ there are many false religions today christians must be careful what they listen to and believe . some say you cant lose ure salvation thats not true. just because you become a christian dont mean you can still go on sinning, were not perfect thats true but when you willingly keep sinning and not repent then you stray away from god jesus is the only way to heaven hes our high priest that goes to god the father for us. mary cant take you to heaven , confessing to a priest cant take you to heaven only through the blood of jesus are we saved


 

So exactly what sin causes you to loose your Salvation?

Don't get me wrong, if you continue in sin once you are supposedly saved, than I would be willing to say you were never saved in the first place...

OSAS, doesn't allow for you to continue in sin and be saved, whoever you heard that from was WRONG!

I would rather it be: ISAS = If Saved, Always Saved!

DB BB


----------



## christianhunter (Oct 31, 2008)

You can't wash,the blood of The LORD off.If you continue in sin,you have the "sin unto death" 1 John,or "Turned over to Satan,for the destruction of the flesh" 1 Cor.(same thing).The LORD tells us no one can snatch us from His hands,that includes us.The Lord will not allow us to continue in sin,That is why Solomon,built the Temple,and not his father David,and why Moses got to see the promised land,but not cross over to it.Then there is the husband and wife in the book of Acts(I don't have time to look up the correct spelling of their names)I'll try Aninias and Saphira,who dropped dead for lying to the HOLY SPIRIT,through The Disciples,when they said they had sold everything,when they had not.They were still saved,but they paid the ultimate price,as did Aarons sons,Lots wife,Sampson,and others.Thank our ALMIGHTY GOD,and Savior that we live in the age of Grace,and not of works,because I wonder how many of us would still be here.If we are honest with ourselves,before a HOLY GOD,I know I have to ask for forgiveness for something everyday.
Michael


----------



## gordon 2 (Oct 31, 2008)

"there is only 1 way to heaven thats through jesus christ" Do u mean you have to be a christian to go to heaven?


----------



## rjcruiser (Oct 31, 2008)

gordon 2 said:


> "there is only 1 way to heaven thats through jesus christ" Do u mean you have to be a christian to go to heaven?



I know that the question wasn't directed towards me, but that has never stopped me from answering


Yes, you must believe in Jesus Christ, His death and resurection to go to Heaven.


----------



## Swamp Buggy (Oct 31, 2008)

"Mary cant take you to heaven , confessing to a priest cant take you to heaven only through the blood of Jesus are we saved"

So a Christian that is Catholic, believes in Christ,confesses to a Priest is not saved? 

This is where I get lost. To me a Christian is a Christian ( One who believes and has accepted Jesus as their savior).I have seen Baptists condemn Catholics, Catholics condemn Prodistents, Prodistents condemn Methodists. I have even been in conversations with mostly baptists that believe that only the Christians that go to there church are truly saved and will go to heaven, so what about Christians that lived 1500 years ago? To me the religious world is becoming to complicated and picked apart like Law, I believe it to be, and simply put in a nut shell, Accept Christ as your Savior, believe in God, and do your best to live a good clean life and as close to the bible as you can. To me that is all that God expects from us as he made us not as he made his son. Just my opinion


----------



## BKA (Oct 31, 2008)

Did you hear that the Bargain Barn is now open on Sunday????


----------



## Dogmusher (Oct 31, 2008)

BKA said:


> Did you hear that the Bargain Barn is now open on Sunday????


----------



## dawg2 (Oct 31, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> I know that the question wasn't directed towards me, but that has never stopped me from answering
> 
> 
> Yes, you must believe in Jesus Christ, His death and resurection to go to Heaven.



Really?  No exceptions whatsoever?


----------



## dawg2 (Oct 31, 2008)

denise04 said:


> there is only 1 way to heaven thats through jesus christ there are many false religions today christians must be careful what they listen to and believe . some say you cant lose ure salvation thats not true. just because you become a christian dont mean you can still go on sinning, were not perfect thats true but when you willingly keep sinning and not repent then you stray away from god  jesus is the only way to heaven hes our high priest that goes to god the father for us. mary   cant take you to heaven , confessing to a priest cant take you to heaven only through the blood of jesus are we saved



Denise, Can I assume you are a Baptist?


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Oct 31, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> I know that the question wasn't directed towards me, but that has never stopped me from answering
> 
> 
> Yes, you must believe in Jesus Christ, His death and resurection to go to Heaven.



You know, this is one thing that always confused me, even when I was a Christian.  I'm not so sure that the first Christians agreed with you there.

According to the New Testament:
1 Corinthians 15:21  For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.

(22)For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Now, this says that just as all die because of Adam's sin, ALL are made alive because of Christ's sacrifice.  I didn't have to believe in or accept Adam's sin (and therefore the punishment of death) in order to have a mortal life, and since the bible says that resurrection (and therefore, salvation) is the same, then that would mean it doesn't have to be believed in, either.  Either Jesus died for everyone or he didn't, no acceptance necessary.

I'm sure the other Christians will disagree, or someone will post some lengthy apologetics article by some 'scholar' to 'explain' what Paul 'really'  meant , but that's coming from the NT and that's what it says.  Either it can be trusted, or it can't.


----------



## Mako22 (Oct 31, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> even when I was a Christian.



So if you are not a Christian anymore what are you now?


----------



## mtnwoman (Oct 31, 2008)

Unfortunately I will continue in sin. Not necessarily on purpose. But I sin every day in one way or another. Even if it's just a hateful attitude. If we could've NOT sinned, any of us, then Jesus wouldn't have had to die on the cross. None of us can never sin again....I am delivered, but damaged and I will always be damaged goods. But I've been redeemed, bought back in my damaged condition by the blood of the lamb. I will never be perfect and/or sinless....at least not in this life.


----------



## leroy (Oct 31, 2008)

mtnwoman said:


> Unfortunately I will continue in sin. Not necessarily on purpose. But I sin every day in one way or another. Even if it's just a hateful attitude. If we could've NOT sinned, any of us, then Jesus wouldn't have had to die on the cross. None of us can never sin again....I am delivered, but damaged and I will always be damaged goods. But I've been redeemed, bought back in my damaged condition by the blood of the lamb. I will never be perfect and/or sinless.



good post


----------



## mtnwoman (Oct 31, 2008)

leroy said:


> good post



thanks


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 1, 2008)

Woodsman69 said:


> So if you are not a Christian anymore what are you now?



Does it really matter? I mean, according to Christianity, if I'm not a Christian I'm going to hades... so it really doesn't make any difference, does it?    


I don't think I can put a label on myself when it comes to religion.  Nothing fits.


----------



## gordon 2 (Nov 1, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Does it really matter? I mean, according to Christianity, if I'm not a Christian I'm going to hades... so it really doesn't make any difference, does it?
> 
> 
> I don't think I can put a label on myself when it comes to religion.  Nothing fits.



You know that "if I'm not a Christian I'm going to hades..." is a blanket statement"and that you are focusing on the lowest common denominator of the christian experience. Like many christians, you are RC but just don't know it.

I hope your statement is tongue and cheek. I suspect it is. RCs do not "believe" that only those who "believe" in Jesus will go to heaven and we have many yrs of bible study and church history to back it up.

At some periods the RC church, depending on the area, was no more than a cult, IMO, just as are some protestant denominations in some areas today. We can focus on those negatives and say they are the christian church or they describe what a christian is or can be, but in reality they are the least of what the church and christians are and can be. We can chose to make Islamist all muslims, but are they really? We can chose to make ourselves and others non-christians, but are we? are they?

You know...


----------



## dawg2 (Nov 1, 2008)

gordon 2 said:


> You know that "if I'm not a Christian I'm going to hades..." is a blanket statement"and that you are focusing on the lowest common denominator of the christian experience. Like many christians, you are RC but just don't know it.
> 
> I hope your statement is tongue and cheek. I suspect it is. RCs do not "believe" that only those who "believe" in Jesus will go to heaven and we have many yrs of bible study and church history to back it up.
> 
> ...



Excellent points!


----------



## THREEJAYS (Nov 1, 2008)

mtnwoman said:


> Unfortunately I will continue in sin. Not necessarily on purpose. But I sin every day in one way or another. Even if it's just a hateful attitude. If we could've NOT sinned, any of us, then Jesus wouldn't have had to die on the cross. None of us can never sin again....I am delivered, but damaged and I will always be damaged goods. But I've been redeemed, bought back in my damaged condition by the blood of the lamb. I will never be perfect and/or sinless....at least not in this life.



Ditto


----------



## denise04 (Nov 1, 2008)

*hi*



rjcruiser said:


> Dawg, I'm trying to put on my winter weight to keep a little warmer in the stand.
> 
> Welcome to the forum denise.


  thnks!!


----------



## denise04 (Nov 1, 2008)

*hi*



Double Barrel BB said:


> So exactly what sin causes you to loose your Salvation?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, if you continue in sin once you are supposedly saved, than I would be willing to say you were never saved in the first place...
> 
> ...


  all sin is sin to god there are no small are big ones. u turn away from god when u stop confessing them


----------



## denise04 (Nov 1, 2008)

*hi*



gordon 2 said:


> "there is only 1 way to heaven thats through jesus christ" Do u mean you have to be a christian to go to heaven?


 yes jesus is the only way to heaven


----------



## denise04 (Nov 1, 2008)

*hi*



dawg2 said:


> Denise, Can I assume you are a Baptist?


 i use to be church of god now im nondenominational as it will be in heaven there wont be no denominations there we will all be as one god bless


----------



## denise04 (Nov 1, 2008)

*hi*



Woodsman69 said:


> So if you are not a Christian anymore what are you now?


 when u turn away from god again ure a sinner and the bible says do ure first works over


----------



## denise04 (Nov 1, 2008)

*hi*



Dixie Dawg said:


> Does it really matter? I mean, according to Christianity, if I'm not a Christian I'm going to hades... so it really doesn't make any difference, does it?
> 
> 
> I don't think I can put a label on myself when it comes to religion.  Nothing fits.


religion doesnt matter its if weve accepted jesus in our lives and followed him


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 1, 2008)

denise04 said:


> when u turn away from god again ure a sinner and the bible says do ure first works over



Ummm, yeah.
Just because someone has turned away from religion doesn't mean they have turned away from God.  In fact, if anything, I believe religion inhibits your spirituality.


----------



## dawg2 (Nov 1, 2008)

denise04 said:


> all sin is sin to god there are no small are big ones. u turn away from god when u stop confessing them



You really should read your bible because you are wrong.


----------



## dawg2 (Nov 1, 2008)

denise04 said:


> yes jesus is the only way to heaven



No exceptions?


----------



## dawg2 (Nov 1, 2008)

denise04 said:


> i use to be church of god now im nondenominational as it will be in heaven there wont be no denominations there we will all be as one god bless



They will be universal.


----------



## Lorri (Nov 1, 2008)

mtnwoman said:


> Unfortunately I will continue in sin. Not necessarily on purpose. But I sin every day in one way or another. Even if it's just a hateful attitude. If we could've NOT sinned, any of us, then Jesus wouldn't have had to die on the cross. None of us can never sin again....I am delivered, but damaged and I will always be damaged goods. But I've been redeemed, bought back in my damaged condition by the blood of the lamb. I will never be perfect and/or sinless....at least not in this life.




Awesome post - I try everyday of my life not to live in sin but unfortunately things happen in my life every day to test me or tempt me.


----------



## dawg2 (Nov 1, 2008)

luckylady said:


> Awesome post - I try everyday of my life not to live in sin but unfortunately things happen in my life every day to test me or tempt me.



Then you back away from those things that tempt or test you.


----------



## Lorri (Nov 1, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Then you back away from those things that tempt or test you.



Yep you do - learning that the hard way though now.


----------



## dawg2 (Nov 1, 2008)

luckylady said:


> Yep you do - learning that the hard way though now.



Many times that is the best way to learn.


----------



## gordon 2 (Nov 1, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Ummm, yeah.
> Just because someone has turned away from religion doesn't mean they have turned away from God.  In fact, if anything, I believe religion inhibits your spirituality.




Yes, it can. But it does not have to. What about church, is church important today. I once heard a talking head on PBS, Charlie Rose, that universities had pretty much taken the place of church. 

Does church have a role in our lives? In my case, I think it does... and is not a hinderance, but a great spiritual asset. 

Perhaps when religion gets to be church it is ok, and when church get to be religion it is not?


----------



## Lead Poison (Nov 1, 2008)

Make no mistake, Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven.


----------



## dawg2 (Nov 1, 2008)

Lead Poison said:


> Make no mistake, Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven.



Clarify that for me.


----------



## Lorri (Nov 1, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Many times that is the best way to learn.



Not sure if it is the best way but have decided a month
or so ago that no matter what God will pull me through anything and everything if I will just believe in him and
I do.


----------



## Lead Poison (Nov 1, 2008)

There is no other name under heaven where by we must be saved. Not Alllah, Budda, or anyone else.


----------



## Lorri (Nov 1, 2008)

gordon 2 said:


> Yes, it can. But it does not have to. What about church, is church important today. I once heard a talking head on PBS, Charlie Rose, that universities had pretty much taken the place of church.
> 
> Does church have a role in our lives? In my case, I think it does... and is not a hinderance, but a great spiritual asset.
> 
> Perhaps when religion gets to be church it is ok, and when church get to be religion it is not?



I agree I think church has a big role in my life.


----------



## christianhunter (Nov 1, 2008)

Swamp Buggy said:


> "Mary cant take you to heaven , confessing to a priest cant take you to heaven only through the blood of Jesus are we saved"
> 
> So a Christian that is Catholic, believes in Christ,confesses to a Priest is not saved?
> 
> This is where I get lost. To me a Christian is a Christian ( One who believes and has accepted Jesus as their savior).I have seen Baptists condemn Catholics, Catholics condemn Prodistents, Prodistents condemn Methodists. I have even been in conversations with mostly baptists that believe that only the Christians that go to there church are truly saved and will go to heaven, so what about Christians that lived 1500 years ago? To me the religious world is becoming to complicated and picked apart like Law, I believe it to be, and simply put in a nut shell, Accept Christ as your Savior, believe in God, and do your best to live a good clean life and as close to the bible as you can. To me that is all that God expects from us as he made us not as he made his son. Just my opinion



And a good one at that,you are right on the money.AMEN.
Not passing judgment on the lady that asked what am I if not a Christian,You are lost!Accept Jesus,if you are right you have lost nothing,if you are wrong you have lost everything,and you are wrong.I pray,that you open your eyes,and think with your heart,and not your mind.You are no exception to the rule,if you ask The LORD to save you and really mean it,HE will.

Michael


----------



## DOXIELADY (Nov 1, 2008)

denise04 said:


> there is only 1 way to heaven thats through jesus christ there are many false religions today christians must be careful what they listen to and believe . some say you cant lose ure salvation thats not true. just because you become a christian dont mean you can still go on sinning, were not perfect thats true but when you willingly keep sinning and not repent then you stray away from god  jesus is the only way to heaven hes our high priest that goes to god the father for us. mary   cant take you to heaven , confessing to a priest cant take you to heaven only through the blood of jesus are we saved


I agree also with what your saying


----------



## dawg2 (Nov 1, 2008)

Lead Poison said:


> There is no other name under heaven where by we must be saved. Not Alllah, Budda, or anyone else.



What about an infant that dies or an Indian in the Amazon who never heard of Jesus?


----------



## Lead Poison (Nov 1, 2008)

*Acts 4:12

12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."*

God can save whoever he chooses; however, I'm referring to salvation through someone other than Jesus.


----------



## christianhunter (Nov 1, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> What about an infant that dies or an Indian in the Amazon who never heard of Jesus?



An infant is sinless,it is born to sin,but has not reached the age of accountability,as far as the Indian goes,I have heard and read,that they maybe saved by the kind of life they lived,I don't know,but it does make sense.If they have never heard of JESUS,then they didn't reject them.That is not GOD'S word only speculation,but you can't accept someone you've never heard of,like I said it does make sense,but we won't know until we get to eternity.GOD surely thought of this before the foundation of the world,only HE knows the answer to the latter half of your question.

Michael


----------



## dawg2 (Nov 1, 2008)

Lead Poison said:


> *Acts 4:12
> 
> 12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."*
> 
> God can save whoever he chooses; however, I'm referring to salvation through someone other than Jesus.




Gotcha.


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 1, 2008)

christianhunter said:


> And a good one at that,you are right on the money.AMEN.
> Not passing judgment on the lady that asked what am I if not a Christian,You are lost!Accept Jesus,if you are right you have lost nothing,if you are wrong you have lost everything,and you are wrong.I pray,that you open your eyes,and think with your heart,and not your mind.You are no exception to the rule,if you ask The LORD to save you and really mean it,HE will.
> 
> Michael



You know, I find it somewhat ironic that I type this while watching the credits roll from the movie "The Crucible" that I just watched with my daughter.  In case you haven't seen it, it's about the Salem witch trials and how innocent people were hung because they refused to LIE and say that they had conspired with the devil.

"If you ask The LORD to save you and really mean it,HE will."

At one time I did believe in the NT and in Jesus. But there was a lot that did not make sense to me and after years of reading the bible and praying and searching for the truth, I realized that it was not true and I could no longer believe in it.

So, what is it you propose that I do?  Shall I lie to God and say that I still believe in Jesus?  Do you not think that God knows my heart?  Do you not think that God knows that my only wish is to believe in what is TRUE?  I put my faith in the belief that God and God alone knows what is in my heart and what my intentions are.  I do not deny Jesus for any other reason than that I have found the testimony of the NT to not be believable.   I have made my peace with God over my decision to reject Christianity, I have put my soul in His mercy completely, and I trust His judgment above all others, including your scriptures.

So, no, I am not lost.  In fact, I am far from being lost.   In fact, I get the feeling that you are lost.  From this quote of yours: "Accept Jesus,if you are right you have lost nothing,if you are wrong you have lost everything,and you are wrong."  I suppose I should 'accept' all religions then, just to be on the safe side.  After all, surely they can't ALL be wrong.  If I 'accept' all religions, I'm bound to get at least one right....

Oh, and P.S.... thanks for not 'passing judgment' on me and only telling me that I'm 'lost'...


----------



## christianhunter (Nov 2, 2008)

My if you are right,and if you are wrong, stem from your beliefs,not mine.Hence the word if.I'm not passing judgment on you,I don't know you,and who am I to judge?
If you don't believe in Jesus,your GOD can't be Jehovah(Yaweh)The GOD of Abraham,Issac,and Jacob.There have been several people who did not believe the scriptures,and set out to prove them wrong,only to find they were true.I'm not your enemy,I'm on your side,I would love to see you in eternity,Test GOD,ask HIM for wisdom,HE will give you anything according to His will.Don't get angry,none of us can make GOD,who or what we want Him to be.HIS peace be with you and guide you.

Michael

HIS will be done!


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 2, 2008)

christianhunter said:


> If you don't believe in Jesus,your GOD can't be Jehovah(Yaweh)The GOD of Abraham,Issac,and Jacob.



Actually, it's the other way around 
If your God is Jehovah, the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, then there is no way you can believe in Jesus.

Which is why the Jews don't accept him.  

I'm not angry... and I know none of us can make God what we want him to be.  For most of my life, I wanted him to be Jesus.  It didn't work.


----------



## christianhunter (Nov 2, 2008)

Dixie the seed has been planted,you know of JESUS,whether you believe in HIM or not.Its in HIS hands for you,and I will and have prayed for you.Keep your heart open.

Michael


----------



## DOXIELADY (Nov 2, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> You know, I find it somewhat ironic that I type this while watching the credits roll from the movie "The Crucible" that I just watched with my daughter.  In case you haven't seen it, it's about the Salem witch trials and how innocent people were hung because they refused to LIE and say that they had conspired with the devil.
> 
> "If you ask The LORD to save you and really mean it,HE will."
> 
> ...


I dont understand how you can   make peace with God and not believe in his son which he sent to die on the cross for our sins,there all one the Father ,Son ,and the Holy Ghost,you cant take one without taking them all he sent his son to take away our sins,after your saved the Holy Spirit lives within you ,nobody understands the Bible completely ,his ways are not our ways ,but I asure you its all true,and when you get saved ,its not just picking something to believe in I wasnt at church when he saved me ,I went to say a simple prayer or something before I went to sleep when I knew the Lord was dealing with my heart ,it  felt like it broke into a millon pieces no words could ever describe what I felt but I knew who it was ,and my eyes was opened to who he was and what I was without him and then the Holy Spirit moved inside me there is nothing like it,also understand that Satan also trys to confuse you in Gods word ,he dosent want you to read the Bible and trust in the Lord ,and believe in Jesus ,I want everyone to make it to Heaven and to know the truth and only by excepting Jesus Christ as your savior will be the only way


----------



## Lorri (Nov 2, 2008)

DOXIELADY said:


> I dont understand how you can   make peace with God and not believe in his son which he sent to die on the cross for our sins,there all one the Father ,Son ,and the Holy Ghost,you cant take one without taking them all he sent his son to take away our sins,after your saved the Holy Spirit lives within you ,nobody understands the Bible completely ,his ways are not our ways ,but I asure you its all true,and when you get saved ,its not just picking something to believe in I wasnt at church when he saved me ,I went to say a simple prayer or something before I went to sleep when I knew the Lord was dealing with my heart ,it  felt like it broke into a millon pieces no words could ever describe what I felt but I knew who it was ,and my eyes was opened to who he was and what I was without him and then the Holy Spirit moved inside me there is nothing like it,also understand that Satan also trys to confuse you in Gods word ,he dosent want you to read the Bible and trust in the Lord ,and believe in Jesus ,I want everyone to make it to Heaven and to know the truth and only by excepting Jesus Christ as your savior will be the only way



My beliefs exactly - not good at putting it in words.
I know GOD is number one in my life now and that
you don't have to go to church to accept Jesus
Christ as your Savior even though we do go to church
every Sunday unless my daughters have a Lacrosse
game to play.


----------



## Mako22 (Nov 2, 2008)

Lead Poison said:


> There is no other name under heaven where by we must be saved. Not Alllah, Budda, or anyone else.



...... or by Mary or by the Pope.


----------



## Lead Poison (Nov 2, 2008)

Woodsman69 said:


> ...... or by Mary or by the Pope.



You're correct.


----------



## Israel (Nov 2, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Actually, it's the other way around
> If your God is Jehovah, the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, then there is no way you can believe in Jesus.
> 
> Which is why the Jews don't accept him.
> ...



You say "which is why the Jews don't accpet him" is false on the face of it.

Not only have many Jews accepted Jesus as the promise, but much of what we treasure today in the scriptures, or "new Testament" if you will, was written by Jews...and every single one of the original 12 was a Jew.
If you care to say a great many Jews yet resist his Lordship, well, that's probably no greater in percentage than the gentiles resistance, either.
The "noble" Jew, of whom you seem to be so enamored is no more prevalent than the noble pagan.

Wait for the squeezeplay, when the jews cry out to the coach for some assitance on the field, watch who he sends in...


----------



## dawg2 (Nov 2, 2008)

Woodsman69 said:


> ...... or by Mary or by the Pope.



Never have believed that, nice try at twisting  FYI, that was covered in post #1


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 2, 2008)

Israel said:


> You say "which is why the Jews don't accpet him" is false on the face of it.
> 
> Not only have many Jews accepted Jesus as the promise, but much of what we treasure today in the scriptures, or "new Testament" if you will, was written by Jews...and every single one of the original 12 was a Jew.



And David Koresh said he was a Christian... not sure what your point is here 



> Wait for the squeezeplay, when the jews cry out to the coach for some assitance on the field, watch who he sends in...



Don't really have to wait at all... the "Old Testament" is full of examples where the Jews cried out to God for some assistance during the 'squeeze play'.   He has pretty much made it clear throughout the Old Testament that he works alone....


----------



## Israel (Nov 2, 2008)

The point is obvious, in refutation of "the jews don't accept him"...the testimony of so many jews has had a profound effect upon the sect sometimes formerly known as "the way".
Yep. Lotsa pagans claim to be christian, Koresh may well be included.
But I don't doubt Peter, James, John, Paul, et al, who were Jews to their dying day.


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 2, 2008)

Israel said:


> The point is obvious, in refutation of "the jews don't accept him"...the testimony of so many jews has had a profound effect upon the sect sometimes formerly known as "the way".
> Yep. Lotsa pagans claim to be christian, Koresh may well be included.
> But I don't doubt Peter, James, John, Paul, et al, who were Jews to their dying day.



And my point is, you have no way of knowing if Peter, James, etc. weren't the Koreshes of their day.  Given the fact that their writings pretty much went totally against the Judaism they claim to be part of, it would seem that they very well may have been


----------



## DOXIELADY (Nov 2, 2008)

Dixie Dawg alot of the Jews has come to see that Jesus is there Savior ,just as differnt other people from around the world has as the gospel goes out ,its meeting the Lord on a personal level  that opens there eyes ... seek Jesus and you will find him,knock and he will answer ,it is the most important decision that you will ever make, Jesus Christ is the only way ,and not only that but he is the greatest friend you will ever find,he loves you and cares for you he dosent want you to die and go to  hades he dosent want you to be confused ,just seek him   and you will find him,I pray that he will deal with your heart and open your eyes to who he is ,because the desion that you make about Jesus here on earth is the decision you will live with for all eternity ,I pray that you dont turn him away .


----------



## Israel (Nov 2, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> And my point is, you have no way of knowing if Peter, James, etc. weren't the Koreshes of their day.  Given the fact that their writings pretty much went totally against the Judaism they claim to be part of, it would seem that they very well may have been



Cute emoticons aside, (which in reality do little to hide a smirk) Jesus is pretty cool with being mocked and dismissed. He knows that comes with the salvation territory. (The most sincere face of the unregenerate is a smirk.)
Peter, James, John and Paul, who all came to appreciate their smallness in the Lord's largeness don't much care what you say about them either.
Comparing them to David Koresh or the devil himself doesn't cause the briefest pause or hitch in their present glorious celebrations.
But Jesus has put himself in the place of catching the crafty in their own craftiness, and disclosing the hidden thoughts and intentions of all hearts.
You know little how much presumption is contained in "And my point is, you have no way of knowing if Peter, James, etc. weren't the Koreshes of their day."

For you don't know at all what I am(or any other believer is) capable of knowing...or not knowing. If you care to dispute the truth of this, that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ, and that those brothers who you are willing to esteem so little as to compare them to a self consumed sociopathic pederast are not disciples faithful to the death in their calling by and for the Kingdom of God...then by your words you are justified, by your own words, you are condemned.


----------



## gordon 2 (Nov 2, 2008)

Ok so I don't what to say this, but I will just the same. I don't like it, except in fun, when we can blame someone  for something, just because they are not here.

Allah is a word that means God. Nothing else. It is not the name of a god, or anything at all, except it is the word meaning God in a language(s) other than english. Get over it.

It is also my belief, that just because some people don't know Jesus by name, are not intimate with Him, does not mean He don't ring in their purchases and hands them a coupon now and then.


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 2, 2008)

Israel said:


> Cute emoticons aside, (which in reality do little to hide a smirk) Jesus is pretty cool with being mocked and dismissed. He knows that comes with the salvation territory. (The most sincere face of the unregenerate is a smirk.)
> Peter, James, John and Paul, who all came to appreciate their smallness in the Lord's largeness don't much care what you say about them either.
> Comparing them to David Koresh or the devil himself doesn't cause the briefest pause or hitch in their present glorious celebrations.
> But Jesus has put himself in the place of catching the crafty in their own craftiness, and disclosing the hidden thoughts and intentions of all hearts.
> ...



I realize that it was not your intention, but all your post has done for me is to reinforce what I said.

Specifics aside, what is so different about the disciples and Jesus, or Koresh and his disciples?

Both sets were 'faithful to the death' that they were called by God for the mission that they lived.

Both sets believed that God was speaking to them and giving them instruction... both sets believed they were doing the will of God... the disciples and Jesus believed that God gave them authority to change the Law, and Koresh and his disciples believed they had the authority to marry and have sex with underage girls.  Of course, that is a very watered down condension, but I'm sure you get the idea.  Yes, I agree that Koresh's idea of God's will is sick, but you should remember that the Jews believed that Jesus and the disciples' idea of God's will was blasphemous and worthy of death.

I'll agree that I may not know what you or anyone else is capable of knowing... just as you or no one else is capable of knowing if I was 'really' a Christian or not for most of my life.   What I was referring to, however, is that historically, you have no idea what or who Jesus and the disciples were.  You have a book of disputable writings (and, I might add, dozens of other writings that were 'tossed out' by the vote and/or by Catholic church leaders), many written by unknown authors, decades after the fact.  And that's it.  The NT doesn't even have any explanation or documentation of Jesus' life between infancy and adulthood.


I know a lot about King Tut. If I want to, I can read the Egyptian writings on walls that I can touch that talk about him. I can see his mummy.  I can see the pyramids built by the Egyptians for their gods.  I can have confidence in the bible account of the life of David, I can see the remains of the temple he built.  What is there of Jesus? Nothing.  Nobody even knows for sure which tomb was his.  How odd, if he was such a powerful popular force, how is it that there is nothing?  God in the flesh, savior of all?


----------



## christianhunter (Nov 2, 2008)

gordon 2 said:


> Ok so I don't what to say this, but I will just the same. I don't like it, except in fun, when we can blame someone  for something, just because they are not here.
> 
> Allah is a word that means God. Nothing else. It is not the name of a god, or anything at all, except it is the word meaning God in a language(s) other than english. Get over it.
> 
> It is also my belief, that just because some people don't know Jesus by name, are not intimate with Him, does not mean He don't ring in their purchases and hands them a coupon now and then.



In every language JESUS NAME means the same,and is the same.pronounced different,and spelled different,like our names but we are still the same person.Just a few,YESHUA,Iesous,JESUS(in spanish)spelled the same,but pronounced with an "H".THE BIBLE says"The fool has said in their heart,there is no GOD".Saying JESUS was not 100% man,and 100% GOD,is the same,because there are no gods,but The True GOD,and JESUS is the Image,and The face of GOD.Father,Son,and Holy Spirit Three Persons,but one GOD.To use the mathematics of Billy Graham--1-times 1-times1=1.We can't comprehend The Trinity of GOD,but it is true,and on the day of judgment,"Every knee will bow,and every tongue confess,JESUS CHRIST IS LORD."Opinions are just that,secular writings are still around,and speak of the life of our LORD,though they were blinded to the truth,they still attest,to the Inspired writings of The Holy Scriptures.Repent,judgment is coming!

Michael


----------



## christianhunter (Nov 2, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I realize that it was not your intention, but all your post has done for me is to reinforce what I said.
> 
> Specifics aside, what is so different about the disciples and Jesus, or Koresh and his disciples?
> 
> ...



You are very,very close to Blasphemy!


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 2, 2008)

christianhunter said:


> In every language JESUS NAME means the same,and is the same.pronounced different,and spelled different,like our names but we are still the same person.Just a few,YESHUA,Iesous,JESUS(in spanish)spelled the same,but pronounced with an "H".THE BIBLE says"The fool has said in their heart,there is no GOD".Saying JESUS was not 100% man,and 100% GOD



If all mankind is born with a 'sin nature', and Jesus was 100% man, then he was born with a 'sin nature', and of course could not be God.  If he wasn't born with a 'sin nature', then he wasn't 100% man.




> ,is the same,because there are no gods,but The True GOD,and JESUS is the Image,and The face of GOD.Father,Son,and Holy Spirit Three Persons,but one GOD.To use the mathematics of Billy Graham--1-times 1-times1=1.We can't comprehend The Trinity of GOD,but it is true,



You can't comprehend it because it makes no sense.  Billy Graham seems to only use the math convenient to his agenda, because 1 + 1 + 1 = 3.  

I think that Christians really only believe in one God, but to make Jesus fit, they have to create the idea of the trinity.  Let me ask you this... which one has the most power?  God the father, God the son or God the holy spirit?


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 2, 2008)

christianhunter said:


> You are very,very close to Blasphemy!



Really? According to who?


----------



## DOXIELADY (Nov 2, 2008)

Nope you wont find no mummy of Jesus ,or a tomb with his name on it,he only had to borrow one ,no grave could hold him,he conquered death, hades and the grave ,which noone else could do, Jesus didnt leave nothing he left us everything the Salvation plan,he is alive and still answers prayers and heals ,cares and loves, and saves ,praise God his tomb was empty but the hearts of those who has met the Lord are absolutly full ,I wouldnt want to make it one day without him,but as far as proof of Jesus Christ its all around you some people just shut there hearts off to him


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 3, 2008)

DOXIELADY said:


> ,praise God his tomb was empty



Which tomb was his?


----------



## DOXIELADY (Nov 3, 2008)

Dosent matter he isnt in it anymore,Ive met him he is alive and well ,still in the saving business and having lots and lots of mercy on all of us......... ,proof  may not be what you really want in the end ,proof can be waking up one morning finding out people has vanished all over the earth after he comes and get his believing children,proof maybe when you are in eternity and its to late ,proof is on judgement day when you hear the words I never knew you, just something to think about ,he is an amazing friend ,and so much more than that ,I am sorry your having a hard time believing in  Jesus I truly am you will be in my prayers ,you said you prayed and turn it over to God to show you the truth, well maybe some of these things  people has told you about Jesus  is Gods way of leading you to the truth.


----------



## Lorri (Nov 3, 2008)

DOXIELADY said:


> Dosent matter he isnt in it anymore,Ive met him he is alive and well ,still in the saving business and having lots and lots of mercy on all of us......... ,proof  may not be what you really want in the end ,proof can be waking up one morning finding out people has vanished all over the earth after he comes and get his believing children,proof maybe when you are in eternity and its to late ,proof is on judgement day when you hear the words I never knew you, just something to think about ,he is an amazing friend ,and so much more than that ,I am sorry your having a hard time believing in  Jesus I truly am you will be in my prayers ,you said you prayed and turn it over to God to show you the truth, well maybe some of these things  people has told you about Jesus  is Gods way of leading you to the truth.




AMEN


----------



## Israel (Nov 3, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I realize that it was not your intention, but all your post has done for me is to reinforce what I said.
> 
> Specifics aside, what is so different about the disciples and Jesus, or Koresh and his disciples?
> 
> ...



Yes, God in the flesh, savior of all.

That it makes perfect sense to me that the historical record may be what you consider thin to nonexistant means little to you. I understand the "foolishness" of what I preach in that context.
Just as Herod was disappointed in not being able to get Jesus to "bust a miracle" for his amusement, it doesn't surprise me at all in light of the truth Jesus spoke relative to Lazarus and the rich man.
"They have Moses and the prophets, if they will not hear them, neither will they believe even if one comes back from the dead".
Our issue is wanting to taste, touch, see...Jesus came to go far deeper into man than his senses allow.
For my part, I do not condemn the unbelieving jews or pagans of this day or any other. Even those who turned Jesus over to the Romans had their part to play as assigned by God. I am not better than them for believing, nor are they worse than me for their treachery.
But let's not be so disingenuous to imagine that their refusal to execute their own judgments (blasphemy) upon him out of fear and resulted in their giving him to Rome to do the dirty work is proof of the noble jew willing to risk all for the preservation and purity of their jewish religion. Don't use their duplicity and lack of respect for their own law when their lives might have hung in the balance as the touchstone of your arguments.
But again, back to your original contention that jews don't accept Jesus...then you must dismiss all the disciples, Paul's later conversion, and the conversion of many others after the resurrection as the result of their being "defective" jews, and not the ones of which you might call "true jews."

That is, of course, your prerogative.

Relativism is something only God can address, for all of man's ways seem right in his own eyes.
Ultimately such matters are only resolved when God is able to show just how deceptive our own perspective truly is.


----------



## Swamp Buggy (Nov 3, 2008)

"God is able to show just how deceptive our own perspective truly is."

AMEN! Israel.


----------



## gordon 2 (Nov 3, 2008)

christianhunter said:


> In every language JESUS NAME means the same,and is the same.pronounced different,and spelled different,like our names but we are still the same person.Just a few,YESHUA,Iesous,JESUS(in spanish)spelled the same,but pronounced with an "H".THE BIBLE says"The fool has said in their heart,there is no GOD".Saying JESUS was not 100% man,and 100% GOD,is the same,because there are no gods,but The True GOD,and JESUS is the Image,and The face of GOD.Father,Son,and Holy Spirit Three Persons,but one GOD.To use the mathematics of Billy Graham--1-times 1-times1=1.We can't comprehend The Trinity of GOD,but it is true,and on the day of judgment,"Every knee will bow,and every tongue confess,JESUS CHRIST IS LORD."Opinions are just that,secular writings are still around,and speak of the life of our LORD,though they were blinded to the truth,they still attest,to the Inspired writings of The Holy Scriptures.Repent,judgment is coming!
> 
> Michael



I take it you hunt with a shotgun? I just don't know what your aimin at? Can you be more specific about truth and blindness?


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Nov 3, 2008)

denise04 said:


> all sin is sin to god there are no small are big ones. u turn away from god when u stop confessing them


 

If you stop confessing them, then you were never saved in the first place...

DB BB


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 3, 2008)

Israel said:


> Just as Herod was disappointed in not being able to get Jesus to "bust a miracle" for his amusement, it doesn't surprise me at all in light of the truth Jesus spoke relative to Lazarus and the rich man.



The Jews weren't looking for miracles, and neither am I.  The "Old Testament" warns the Jews against being swayed by miracles... Deuteronomy 13 says flat out that God will allow deceivers to perform miracles to tempt his people and see if they remain faithful or not (interestingly enough, Jesus IS reported to have performed many miracles in the NT...  hmmm...)



> But again, back to your original contention that jews don't accept Jesus...then you must dismiss all the disciples, Paul's later conversion, and the conversion of many others after the resurrection as the result of their being "defective" jews, and not the ones of which you might call "true jews."



You're absolutely correct.
Any Jew who went against the instruction of the "Old Testament" and followed gods that their fathers had not taught them (ie: Jesus) is a 'defective' Jew.

Deuteronomy 13:6  	If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which [is] as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
	Deu 13:7 	[Namely], of the gods of the people which [are] round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth;
	Deu 13:8 	Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
	Deu 13:9 	But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.


----------



## farmasis (Nov 3, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> The Jews weren't looking for miracles, and neither am I. The "Old Testament" warns the Jews against being swayed by miracles... Deuteronomy 13 says flat out that God will allow deceivers to perform miracles to tempt his people and see if they remain faithful or not (interestingly enough, Jesus IS reported to have performed many miracles in the NT... hmmm...)


 
The OT predicts that Jesus would do miracles. The Jews were looking for signs of the Messiah and the power from God through him.
  “ Be strong, do not fear! 
      Behold, your God will come _with_ vengeance, 
_With_ the recompense of God; 
      He will come and save you.” 
       5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, 
      And the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. 
       6 Then the lame shall leap like a deer, 
      And the tongue of the dumb sing. (Is. 35)



> You're absolutely correct.
> Any Jew who went against the instruction of the "Old Testament" and followed gods that their fathers had not taught them (ie: Jesus) is a 'defective' Jew.
> 
> Deuteronomy 13:6     If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which [is] as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
> ...


 
Did Jesus go against the OT or the law of the pharisees?


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 3, 2008)

farmasis said:


> The OT predicts that Jesus would do miracles. The Jews were looking for signs of the Messiah and the power from God through him.
> “ Be strong, do not fear!
> Behold, your God will come _with_ vengeance,
> _With_ the recompense of God;
> ...



The messiah is not going to perform miracles.  That is not a sign of the messiah.
Jesus did not fulfill one single prophecy of the messiah.





> Did Jesus go against the OT or the law of the pharisees?



He went against the laws given by God in the Torah.  I don't know anywhere in the "Old Testament" that lists the 'laws of the pharisees'.


----------



## christianhunter (Nov 3, 2008)

gordon 2 said:


> I take it you hunt with a shotgun? I just don't know what your aimin at? Can you be more specific about truth and blindness?



No I hunt with a rifle,and hit the bullseye,read your post,that I quoted.Allah is no more a name for The true GOD,than cat is a name,for a dog.Languages do not separate,nor differentiate people or their names,especially GOD.I hope this is close enough to dead center.


----------



## Ronnie T (Nov 3, 2008)

Why would someone claim to have a complete understanding of God's word yet have a perverted point of view of much of it?

Is it more likely to be the simple mistake of worldly thinking or something much worse?


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 3, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> Why would someone claim to have a complete understanding of God's word yet have a perverted point of view of much of it?
> 
> Is it more likely to be the simple mistake of worldly thinking or something much worse?



I wonder the same thing about Christians and their 'understanding' of the "Old Testament" every day.


----------



## christianhunter (Nov 3, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Really? According to who?



JESUS,it doesn't matter whether,you believe in HIM or not.One day and I pray for your sake,it is not soon.Something is going to happen in your life,so heartbreaking,that you will have to have someone to call on.
If JESUS is not who HE says HE is,and HE IS!
Why have people,for the last 2000 years,tried to prove that HE wasn't,and where is their proof.The proof that HE is who HE says HE is,is all around you.Secular writings,1000's of people who gave their lives,who refused to deny HIM.Killers,drunks,liars,rapists,etc;,etc;,who have changed their lives,countless unexplained miracles,and you making prophesy come to pass right now,a generation looking for a sign,but none will be given.Finally 3 ones multiplied equals 1.That is a fact!Three ones added equals 3.Thats a fact!
Both describe The Trinity,1 GOD,3 Persons of the Trinity.There is one GOD,Father,Son,and Holy Spirit,All equal,all the same,The entire universe cannot contain GOD.
How is it so hard,to comprehend,That THE Eternal GOD,is everywhere.GOD is One,yet HE is Father,Son,and Holy Spirit.You can't explain it,so you refuse to believe it.How does your heart beat,how do you breath,How are the people on the side,and bottom of the earth standing straight up,and not falling off.Do you refuse to believe everything you can't understand?


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 3, 2008)

christianhunter said:


> JESUS,it doesn't matter whether,you believe in HIM or not.One day and I pray for your sake,it is not soon.Something is going to happen in your life,so heartbreaking,that you will have to have someone to call on.
> If JESUS is not who HE says HE is,and HE IS!
> Why have people,for the last 2000 years,tried to prove that HE wasn't,and where is their proof.The proof that HE is who HE says HE is,is all around you.Secular writings,1000's of people who gave their lives,who refused to deny HIM.Killers,drunks,liars,rapists,etc;,etc;,who have changed their lives,countless unexplained miracles,and you making prophesy come to pass right now,a generation looking for a sign,but none will be given.Finally 3 ones multiplied equals 1.That is a fact!Three ones added equals 3.Thats a fact!
> Both describe The Trinity,1 GOD,3 Persons of the Trinity.There is one GOD,Father,Son,and Holy Spirit,All equal,all the same,The entire universe cannot contain GOD.
> How is it so hard,to comprehend,That THE Eternal GOD,is everywhere.GOD is One,yet HE is Father,Son,and Holy Spirit.You can't explain it,so you refuse to believe it.How does your heart beat,how do you breath,How are the people on the side,and bottom of the earth standing straight up,and not falling off.Do you refuse to believe everything you can't understand?



So is that another contradiction?  Christians say that God does not create evil... that evil is the absence of God. But if what you say is true, that God is everywhere, then evil could not exist.  

When it comes to the trinity, you can't explain it, which is why it takes FAITH to 'understand' it.   When a man and a woman are married, they become 'one'.  Does that mean that they are the same? No, they are separate people.  God is ONE, alone, no trinity makes him up, he states this so clearly over and over again in the New Testament, and no Jew would ever say otherwise.

As far as all those who 'gave their lives' as your proof, there have been  more Jews killed for their faith than any number of Christians in the history of the world.  So what makes your right more than them? How about all of the Muslims who have died for their faith... does that mean it's proof that what they believe is true?

I'm not looking for a miracle.  It isn't going to happen.  For 2000+ years, all we have heard is that Jesus' return is 'right around the corner'.  Dang, what a big corner it must be. Even the disciples kept thinking his return would be any second... sold their possessions, gave up everything thinking they wouldn't need it because they were going to be with Jesus soon.  Well, that generation and hundreds more have passed (even though the NT said it should have been a looooooooooooong time ago).

A miracle wouldn't do it for me.  The bible warns against believing in miracles, because God himself says he will use miracles to test and see if the Jews stay faithful or not.  The messiah is not coming to perform miracles.  The things the messiah will accomplish are not in riddles, they aren't hidden and they will be done by a mortal man... which the messiah will be, just as all other messiahs (David, et al) have been.

Don't threaten me with your foreboding of doom... another scare tactic done by desperate Christians.  "Believe or burn!"  etc.   I have had plenty of heartbreak and tragedies in my life, and guess what, even when I was a Christian, all my faith in Jesus gave me was more guilt and heartache.  Tragedies and heartache happen to EVERYONE.  Funny, a Christian can have a tragedy happen and you all say that it was somehow a blessing, that it is an opportunity for that Christian to make something better out of it. But if the same tragedy happens to a non-believer, you say it is a punishment of their non-belief.  No wonder you can accept something like the trinity.


----------



## christianhunter (Nov 3, 2008)

Bless your heart,I do believe you are seeking.God created Satan,and he is evil,and not to confuse you even further,GOD created evil,but he also created freedom of choice.Seek and you will find.


----------



## christianhunter (Nov 3, 2008)

You keep saying you were once a Christian,and basically decided to stop believing,are you sure something didn't harden your heart.As for the Jews,any so called Christian,who doesn't love Israel,has some serious issues.I see no more point in trying to convince you,as I said in an earlier post,the seed has been planted,it is up to you and The LORD.Take Care,and best wishes for you,I'am done.

Michael


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 3, 2008)

christianhunter said:


> Bless your heart,I do believe you are seeking.God created Satan,and he is evil,and not to confuse you even further,GOD created evil,but he also created freedom of choice.Seek and you will find.





christianhunter said:


> You keep saying you were once a Christian,and basically decided to stop believing,are you sure something didn't harden your heart.As for the Jews,any so called Christian,who doesn't love Israel,has some serious issues.I see no more point in trying to convince you,as I said in an earlier post,the seed has been planted,it is up to you and The LORD.Take Care,and best wishes for you,I'am done.
> 
> Michael



I think that's the first time I have seen a Christian on this forum admit that God creates evil.

As far as trying to convince me of anything, I had no idea you were trying to, or I would have told you myself not to bother.  Nothing 'hardened my heart'.... except maybe for the truth.  There is no underlying experience to blame it on.  I decided to seek, and I found.  It just wasn't what I expected to find when I started my seeking


----------



## farmasis (Nov 4, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> The messiah is not going to perform miracles. That is not a sign of the messiah.
> Jesus did not fulfill one single prophecy of the messiah.


 
He fulfilled them all, including the miracles in Isaiah.



> He went against the laws given by God in the Torah. I don't know anywhere in the "Old Testament" that lists the 'laws of the pharisees'.


 
What law(s) did Jesus go against?
And no, God did not create evil.


----------



## farmasis (Nov 4, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> So is that another contradiction? Christians say that God does not create evil... that evil is the absence of God. But if what you say is true, that God is everywhere, then evil could not exist.


 
Because god has given us will, we can reject him.



> When it comes to the trinity, you can't explain it, which is why it takes FAITH to 'understand' it. When a man and a woman are married, they become 'one'. Does that mean that they are the same? No, they are separate people. God is ONE, alone, no trinity makes him up, he states this so clearly over and over again in the New Testament, and no Jew would ever say otherwise.


 
The trinity is not 3 different Gods. It is the same God. The distinct personalities are revealed in the OT.

26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: (Gen 1)

22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us (Gen 3)

24Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; (Gen 19)

7But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God (Hos 1)

 16Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. (Is. 48)

For more scripture you have missed about the trinity in the OT, you may want to see:

God the Son: Ps 2:2,12; Is. 9:6
God the Spirit: Ps 51:11; Micah 2:7;  Neh 9:30



> I'm not looking for a miracle. It isn't going to happen. For 2000+ years, all we have heard is that Jesus' return is 'right around the corner'. Dang, what a big corner it must be. Even the disciples kept thinking his return would be any second... sold their possessions, gave up everything thinking they wouldn't need it because they were going to be with Jesus soon. Well, that generation and hundreds more have passed (even though the NT said it should have been a looooooooooooong time ago).


 
Jesus himself said that he did not know the hour, only the Father. The fact that he has waited this long shows his love and long suffering.


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 4, 2008)

farmasis said:


> He fulfilled them all, including the miracles in Isaiah.



He didn't fulfill any of them.  There is no world peace, there is no third temple, the tribes have not been gathered in to Israel, etc.  Not one single prophecy did he fulfill.

What miracles in Isaiah did he fulfill?





> What law(s) did Jesus go against?


The law of not changing the Torah, which covers all of the other laws he went against.  



> And no, God did not create evil.



The bible says that He did.... it's just hard for Christians to accept that.  If God didn't create evil, then where did it come from.  Since God is supposedly everywhere, there can be nowhere that God is not.



farmasis said:


> Because god has given us will, we can reject him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Are you really using those as 'proof' texts?
God is spirit... are you saying that God the Father and God the Son don't have a spirit?  If the Holy Spirit is separate, then they must be without.  You can't separate God into parts... just as you can't separate your own spirit into parts.  





> Jesus himself said that he did not know the hour, only the Father. The fact that he has waited this long shows his love and long suffering.



So taking your verses above and this quote from you, it seems that you really don't believe in a trinity... you believe in God the Father.  He is the one with the power. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are just servants of God the Father, they do His work and His bidding.


----------



## Huntinfool (Nov 4, 2008)

I love it when Dixie hangs around...

Things are definitely more interesting around here.  I gotta say, I don't agree with much of what you say.  But I admire the fact that you have your arguments all lined up and, at least, understand why you believe what you believe.

I think you're wrong.  But you make a lot of us look unprepared.


----------



## Ronnie T (Nov 4, 2008)

The origin of evil is a complicated subject.  Was it created or did it develop?  We can talk about what we believe but that will only confuse the issue.
We know that something happened before humanity that cause angels to be removed from heaven.  Satan can to be.  We know that the devil came to Eve in what was suppose to be the purity of the Garden.  We then know that their son killed his own brother.  That murder was his own doing.  That act of evil came from his own heart.
It isn't a matter of KNOWING where evil came from.  It's about making choices.
Israel made choices to respond in godly fashion and they made evil choices.
Making evil choices resulted in God destroying the world with a flood.  Evil has to do with us, not with God.


----------



## Ronnie T (Nov 4, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> I love it when Dixie hangs around...
> 
> Things are definitely more interesting around here.  I gotta say, I don't agree with much of what you say.  But I admire the fact that you have your arguments all lined up and, at least, understand why you believe what you believe.
> 
> I think you're wrong.  But you make a lot of us look unprepared.



I don't think there's much to admire about such a devisive person.  I'm not sure she believes in anything other than her ownself.  And she has her arguments all lined up because she has an agenda.

She has an idealistic attitude that claims that "what I believe is true - what you believe is false".  She didn't have the heart and humility to stay in the light of Jesus Christ and she's continuing to justify her stand.  It's important for her to do this.  That's why she's here.

The reason she makes some look unprepared is because many of her questions cannot be answered, but our feeling toward her are so strong that we jump in with answers before we really think about them.

In many ways, she honestly annoys me.  But I realize that I should have the same attitude that Paul had concerning his Jewish brothers who rejected Jesus.

One of the great errors of the people of Israel was not being able to humble themselves to God.  It continues to be a problem today.  Some people simply think too much of themselves to find a place for humility.  Faith in Jesus Christ comes in the surrender of oneself to Him.  Some cannot surrender themselves to anything or anyone.

Actually, if she had lived in AD 30, Jesus might have called her to be an apostle........ if she were a man.  One of these days, she's probably going to be a dynamic disciple for Jesus Christ, again.


----------



## DOXIELADY (Nov 4, 2008)

Dixie you know its almost like you fighting with the Lord here ,maybe he is dealing with you heart since it seems you have to grab on to  one subject of why Christ cant be real and then how nothing ever said about him has ever come to pass,as far as the Lord coming back theres a sign for you he said they would act like you and say where is he .....,but my friend he is coming its only mercy on us that he waits ,he knows when that last person that will accept him will be and then we are out of here ,but really to have you mind made up about christ and not believing in him you sure dont seem so content with it, who are you trying to convience that he isnt real the ones that has truly met  him or yourself


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 4, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> The origin of evil is a complicated subject.  Was it created or did it develop?  We can talk about what we believe but that will only confuse the issue.
> We know that something happened before humanity that cause angels to be removed from heaven.  Satan can to be.  We know that the devil came to Eve in what was suppose to be the purity of the Garden.  We then know that their son killed his own brother.  That murder was his own doing.  That act of evil came from his own heart.
> It isn't a matter of KNOWING where evil came from.  It's about making choices.
> Israel made choices to respond in godly fashion and they made evil choices.
> Making evil choices resulted in God destroying the world with a flood.  Evil has to do with us, not with God.



But it IS a matter of knowing where evil came from.  Once you understand that evil is created by God, you can know better how to resist it.  Isn't warfare all about knowing the 'enemy'??

God said Himself in the bible that He creates evil.  Yes, of course, it is a choice.  Satan is nothing more than an angel of God, still, to this day, who does the work that God sets him out to do.  His job is to tempt God's creation.  Always has been.  He didn't rebel against God, that is his JOB.

Did it ever occur to you that God ALLOWED the serpent in the Garden of Eden to tempt Adam and Eve?  Or do you think that the 'devil' is so much more powerful than God that he could do something God didn't allow?

Here's something for you to think about... 

2 Samuel 24:1  "And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah."

1 Chronicles 21:1 "And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel."

Ok, so which was it? Did God do it or did Satan?  Well, if you accept the fact that satan is an angel of God, doing His will, then this is no problem.  But if you insist that satan is an enemy of God, working on his own, then it seems you have a bit of a quandry.


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 4, 2008)

DOXIELADY said:


> Dixie you know its almost like you fighting with the Lord here ,maybe he is dealing with you heart since it seems you have to grab on to  one subject of why Christ cant be real and then how nothing ever said about him has ever come to pass,as far as the Lord coming back theres a sign for you he said they would act like you and say where is he .....,but my friend he is coming its only mercy on us that he waits ,he knows when that last person that will accept him will be and then we are out of here ,but really to have you mind made up about christ and not believing in him you sure dont seem so content with it, who are you trying to convience that he isnt real the ones that has truly met  him or yourself



I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything 
I just like the debate!


----------



## Huntinfool (Nov 4, 2008)

I think there is a subtle difference that we need to understand as regards evil.  

God ALLOWED or ALLOWS for the POSSIBILITY of evil.  He does not cause it.  He did create Satan.  But he did not create him for the purpose of doing evil deeds or work.  He created him for his glory and that is why he was there with him before he fell.  

Did God know beforehand that Satan would rebel and leave?  That I do not know.  As I've said before, there is a timeline issue that we are just not able to comprehend and I'm ok with that.

But evil is not created by God.  It is allowed for.  If it weren't, we would have no choice but believe in him and, Dixie, we would not be having this conversation because both you and I would be on the same team so to speak.  

But, in order for choice to exist, he MUST allow for evil.  God sometimes allows Satan to have temporary authority that is not permanently his to accomplish a specific purpose.  But that, to me, just further shows how powerful God really is.  Even Satan, the ultimate evil, the ultimate enemy understands that he is under the authority of God and that he truly cannot act outside of the authority given him BY God.

If you ask me, based on my understanding, God did NOT create evil....he allowed it.  And there is a significant difference in the two concepts.

You actually made my point for me...



Dixie Dawg said:


> Did it ever occur to you that God ALLOWED the serpent in the Garden of Eden to tempt Adam and Eve?  Or do you think that the 'devil' is so much more powerful than God that he could do something God didn't allow?



God allowed it.  But he did not cause it nor did he cause Adam or Eve to make the decision that they made.


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 4, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> I don't think there's much to admire about such a devisive person.  I'm not sure she believes in anything other than her ownself.  And she has her arguments all lined up because she has an agenda.
> 
> She has an idealistic attitude that claims that "what I believe is true - what you believe is false".



Apparently Christians have an idealistic attitude as well, because you make the same claim  

I have no agenda.  I love the debate.  I find religion fascinating, and the fact that so many intelligent people are willing to throw their common sense and logic out the window when it comes to their faith.




> She didn't have the heart and humility to stay in the light of Jesus Christ and she's continuing to justify her stand.  It's important for her to do this.  That's why she's here.



Wrong.  I didn't have the heart to keep lying to myself about the things that just didn't make sense.  After a while, my conscience wouldn't let me do it anymore.  I believe that was from God.  The truth does set you free.

As far as why I'm here, well, like I said, I enjoy the debate!  I'm not here to justify anything.  I learn more and more every time we get into these discussions. It's just that the more I learn, the more I am convinced that I was right in leaving Christianity.



> The reason she makes some look unprepared is because many of her questions cannot be answered, but our feeling toward her are so strong that we jump in with answers before we really think about them.



Thank you for admitting that many of my questions cannot be answered.  That is the main reason for my leaving Christianity in the first place.



> In many ways, she honestly annoys me.  But I realize that I should have the same attitude that Paul had concerning his Jewish brothers who rejected Jesus.
> 
> One of the great errors of the people of Israel was not being able to humble themselves to God.  It continues to be a problem today.  Some people simply think too much of themselves to find a place for humility.  Faith in Jesus Christ comes in the surrender of oneself to Him.  Some cannot surrender themselves to anything or anyone.



But that's where you're wrong about me. I have surrendered myself to God.  I have done so many times over.  He knows my heart, he knows my intentions, he knows my desire to only believe in what is true and right.  You are correct, I don't surrender myself to anyone, including those who wrote the books, only to God.  I don't believe you have to have the books in order to have God.



> Actually, if she had lived in AD 30, Jesus might have called her to be an apostle........ if she were a man.  One of these days, she's probably going to be a dynamic disciple for Jesus Christ, again.



I don't know if you meant that as a compliment or not, but that's the way I'm going to take it


----------



## Huntinfool (Nov 4, 2008)

I think there is plenty to be admired about someone who admittedly struggles with certain things and does the research as extensively as she can.

Most of us on here believe this stuff simply because that's what we're been told our entire lives.  But we never bother to actually do the reading and ask hard questions.  

I think a lot of folks on here get frustrated because Dixie asks questions that we sometimes don't have a quick answer to.  She may ask a question that is wrong, but we often don't have the knowledge to prove it.  What does that say about us?


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Nov 4, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Thank you for admitting that many of my questions cannot be answered. That is the main reason for my leaving Christianity in the first place.


 

So do you have all the "answers" now that you "left" Christianity?

DB BB


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Nov 4, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> I think a lot of folks on here get frustrated because Dixie asks questions that we sometimes don't have a quick answer to. She may ask a question that is wrong, but we often don't have the knowledge to prove it. What does that say about us?


 

I will be the first to admit, DixieDawg, used to get under my skin...

But then I realized why she doesn't see God, and now it doesn't bother me anymore...

Dixie, this was not meant as an insult... I just understand why you can't see...

DB BB


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 4, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> I think there is a subtle difference that we need to understand as regards evil.
> 
> God ALLOWED or ALLOWS for the POSSIBILITY of evil.  He does not cause it.  He did create Satan.  But he did not create him for the purpose of doing evil deeds or work.  He created him for his glory and that is why he was there with him before he fell.
> 
> ...



I like you 

Now, about your post  
I don't have to twist anything... the bible supports what I claim, to the word, in fact... the Christians are the ones who have to twist it in order to make satan his own entity.

Did you read the verses I posted above?

2 Samuel 24:1 "And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah."

This verse does not say that God 'allowed' satan to move David to number Israel, in fact it doesn't even mention satan... it says that GOD Himself did it.

1 Chronicles 21:1 "And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel."

This verse says that satan is the one who did it.  How could that happen? Because satan is an angel of God, doing His will, not the other way around.

Satan could not have rebelled against God.  Angels do not have free choice, they are God's workers.  You say that evil is not created by God, and if it were then we would have no choice but to believe in God.  I disagree.. that is where free will comes in.  God created both evil AND good, and gives us the choice in which to choose.  This is what the bible says, word for word verbatim.

Isaiah 45:7  	 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]. 

Why is that so difficult for Christians to accept? If God is light, how is it He can create darkness?  The same way that if God is good, He can create evil.

It really makes perfect sense.


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 4, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> So do you have all the "answers" now that you "left" Christianity?
> 
> DB BB



Of course not.
But now it makes sense to me that there are no answers


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 4, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> I will be the first to admit, DixieDawg, used to get under my skin...
> 
> But then I realized why she doesn't see God, and now it doesn't bother me anymore...
> 
> ...



No insult taken! 

I feel the same way about Christians... I understand why they can't see, either.  I guess that's because I've been there 

So, I guess we have something in common after all!  


Kerri


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 4, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> I think there is plenty to be admired about someone who admittedly struggles with certain things and does the research as extensively as she can.
> 
> Most of us on here believe this stuff simply because that's what we're been told our entire lives.  But we never bother to actually do the reading and ask hard questions.
> 
> I think a lot of folks on here get frustrated because Dixie asks questions that we sometimes don't have a quick answer to.  She may ask a question that is wrong, but we often don't have the knowledge to prove it.  What does that say about us?



Thank you for the compliment 

I never ask a question that is wrong.  There are no wrong questions.  I may make a statement that you believe is wrong, but there is no such thing as a wrong question.  I think it is important to ask questions, even if you know it will cause problems.  I was chastised, berated and insulted for asking questions of my pastors when I was a Christian, and all that did was cause me to wonder, what is it that they are hiding? What is wrong with asking a question? What makes them so upset that I've asked this?  

If they had just admitted that they didn't know the answer, or said it was a difficult question, then maybe we could have learned something together.  Maybe it was their faith that wasn't strong enough, I don't know.  But it is my opinion that it was their own pride and fear that made them react the way that they did (and still do, even on here.).

Nobody has to agree with me.  I believe what I believe.  I understand why Christians believe the way that they do.  I believed it too.    It's too bad that most don't have the confidence in their faith to say the same to me.  To admit that they can see how I believe what I believe, even if they still think I'm wrong, would take a lot of courage.

I admire you, Huntinfool, for being one with that kind of courage.


----------



## Ronnie T (Nov 4, 2008)

One of the things that's important for all to remember is that we only know what God has made evident to us.  
Where did God come from?
How is it possible for God to have existed forever?
What was/is the relationship between God and Satan?
Is Satan the enemy of God or a tool of God?
Is God involved in every thing that occurs in my life or does He choose which situations to involve Himself?

Often we try to understand things that are to magnificent for us to understand.  God has told us that up front.


----------



## Huntinfool (Nov 4, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I never ask a question that is wrong.  There are no wrong questions.  I may make a statement that you believe is wrong, but there is no such thing as a wrong question.  I think it is important to ask questions, even if you know it will cause problems.



I should have said, "She may make a statement that we think is wrong".  You are correct.  There are no wrong questions.


----------



## Huntinfool (Nov 4, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Isaiah 45:7  	 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].



I think we have a contradiction in translation possibly.  But I'll have to look into it.  Good question.  

My version says this, which reads entirely differently to me.

"7 I form the light and create darkness, 
       I bring prosperity and create disaster; 
       I, the LORD, do all these things."

I realize that what you posted was the KJV, which many would argue is the ONLY translation (silly IMO).  

But this is why (unless you can actually read and understand the original languages) we always have to look into the root meaning.  You often say "the Bible says it.  It should stand on its own and not need 'Christian interpretation' to explain it".  But which version should stand?  Which translation of each word?  These word can often be translated a bunch of different ways.

In the KJV, yes, it clearly says that God creates evil.  But is that the perfect translation of the INTENT of the word?  We don't know.  I would say that the confluence of the remainder of the Word clearly shows that God does not create evil and that, possibly in this case, the KJV is not the best way to interpret what was written and the way it was originally intended.

Take this into account.  the Hebrew word for evil "rah" is used in many different ways in the Bible.  

In the KJV Bible, 431 times it is translated as "evil."  

The other 232 times it occurs it is translated as "wicked", "bad", "hurt", "harm", "ill", "sorrow", "mischief", "displeased", "adversity", "affliction", "trouble", "calamity", "grievous", "misery", and "trouble."  

So you can see that the word does not require that it be translated as "evil."  That, to me, is why we have to read different translations to come to the intent.  So who am I to say what the intent is?  Just a seeker seeking the truth of God.  I pray that he will reveal it to me slowly over time.

It seems to me that he is speaking directly about natural occurences in this case.  Sun, light, dark....and then disaster.  That would, to me, be the likely best interpretation.  

But, Dixie, I guess my point is that you use the exact wording in an english translation and say that THAT is exactly what God said and so that is EXACTLY what must be true of God is contradicting himself and therefore something must be wrong.  

But I say we have to understand that translations are just that, translations.  We have to dig into the meaning of the words and understand them in the context of the whole Word.

Sound like a cop out?  Perhaps to you.  It makes sense to me.


----------



## denise04 (Nov 4, 2008)

*yes*



dawg2 said:


> You really should read your bible because you are wrong.


  i do read my bible very much i was also a ministers daughter so i no my bible pretty well haha   the bible says if youve broken one youve broken them all thats whats wrong with people now they try to judge one sin more worse then the otherwhen in gods eyes there all the same god bless


----------



## denise04 (Nov 4, 2008)

*jesus*



Dixie Dawg said:


> You know, I find it somewhat ironic that I type this while watching the credits roll from the movie "The Crucible" that I just watched with my daughter.  In case you haven't seen it, it's about the Salem witch trials and how innocent people were hung because they refused to LIE and say that they had conspired with the devil.
> 
> "If you ask The LORD to save you and really mean it,HE will."
> 
> ...


 how can you beleive in god the father and say you dont believe in his son jesus you cant believe in one part of the bible and not the rest. the bible clearly states jesus will judge us on that day so youre saying you dont believe in him and he will judge you not us. the bible also says there are false religions.  so yes jesus is the only way into heaven and he says if you reject him now he will reject you on that day so theres only one other place for people to go if they dont believe in the son of god. all the bible is gods word you must accept it all or reject it all jesus gives us a choice to accept or reject him without him we cant enter heaven


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Nov 4, 2008)

denise04,

If a person that was once (supposedly) Saved, decides one day to reject God, then can that person ever be Saved again?

Do you believe it is a concious choice to reject God, or do you believe it is sin that chooses you to loose your salvation?

DB BB


----------



## farmasis (Nov 4, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> He didn't fulfill any of them. There is no world peace, there is no third temple, the tribes have not been gathered in to Israel, etc. Not one single prophecy did he fulfill.
> 
> What miracles in Isaiah did he fulfill?


 
Not all have been fulfilled yet, he will and soon.
Here is some that he has fulfilled, saying he hasn't doesn't make it so.
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/messiah.htm




> The law of not changing the Torah, which covers all of the other laws he went against.


 
I know of no Torah Jesus changed. You must be more specific.




> The bible says that He did.... it's just hard for Christians to accept that. If God didn't create evil, then where did it come from. Since God is supposedly everywhere, there can be nowhere that God is not.


 
No, once again misinterpretations get in the way.
because I am lazy, I will not reinvent the wheel.
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/evil.html



> Are you really using those as 'proof' texts?
> God is spirit... are you saying that God the Father and God the Son don't have a spirit? If the Holy Spirit is separate, then they must be without. You can't separate God into parts... just as you can't separate your own spirit into parts.


 
We are not God, and the spirit is not seperate. Three in one.

So, why did Moses record God saying shall WE make man in OUR image? Do you talk to yourself like that when alone?



> So taking your verses above and this quote from you, it seems that you really don't believe in a trinity... you believe in God the Father. He is the one with the power. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are just servants of God the Father, they do His work and His bidding.


 
Jesus and the Holy Spirit is part of God. Just as my monitor and my keyboard are part of my computer.


----------



## Buckmoses (Nov 4, 2008)

"Truly I percieve that God shows no partiality.  In every nation, anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to Him."

If you think you are right and everyone else is wrong, you are just a Christian version on Bin Laden.  Until we become more tolerant, we will continue to blow each other up in ignorance and tribalism.

I love the bumper sticker thaat says "Focus on your own dam family."


----------



## Huntinfool (Nov 4, 2008)

Wow....Buckmoses!  Congratulations buddy.  You win the prize for crazy whacko post of the year!

....and that's TOUGH to do around here!

Here's to ya buddy!


----------



## christianhunter (Nov 4, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I think that's the first time I have seen a Christian on this forum admit that God creates evil.
> 
> As far as trying to convince me of anything, I had no idea you were trying to, or I would have told you myself not to bother.  Nothing 'hardened my heart'.... except maybe for the truth.  There is no underlying experience to blame it on.  I decided to seek, and I found.  It just wasn't what I expected to find when I started my seeking



GOD created evil,by creating satan,GOD does not go around creating evil,nor allowing evil,lets not get it twisted.GOD created ALL things visible,and invisible,nothing was created that was not created by him.angels,man,nor demons,can create anything they can make,or discover something,but the foundation for it is always from GOD.
For all of my brothers and sisters,it is in the BIBLE That GOD created evil.ALL things were created by HIM!


----------



## farmasis (Nov 5, 2008)

christianhunter said:


> GOD created evil,by creating satan,GOD does not go around creating evil,nor allowing evil,lets not get it twisted.GOD created ALL things visible,and invisible,nothing was created that was not created by him.angels,man,nor demons,can create anything they can make,or discover something,but the foundation for it is always from GOD.
> For all of my brothers and sisters,it is in the BIBLE That GOD created evil.ALL things were created by HIM!


 
No, God did not create evil. He created righteousness and that allows for the opposite of righteousness.
Because he created light, it allows for there to be darkness.

God created Lucifer, he gave Lucifer free will, and Lucifer created Satan. Not God.


----------



## christianhunter (Nov 5, 2008)

I'm coming to realize,these debates,in a lot of cases do more harm than good.Lucifer and satan are the same,his name was changed,but he didn't or couldn't create anything,except diversity and corruption on this forum.We should stay with GODS word,and leave our opinions behind.A lost person viewing this forum on some issues,would stay lost.Thank GOD HE is the one who works salvation.We have very finite minds,compared to The Omnipotent,Omnipresent,and Omniscient Person Of GOD.


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 5, 2008)

farmasis said:


> No, God did not create evil. He created righteousness and that allows for the opposite of righteousness.
> Because he created light, it allows for there to be darkness.
> 
> God created Lucifer, he gave Lucifer free will, and Lucifer created Satan. Not God.



Whoa... wait a minute.... Lucifer and satan are separate beings?  That's a first for me....   verses?

I'd also love to see the verses where God gave Lucifer free will.

Of course, they would need to be verses from the "Old Testament"....


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 5, 2008)

christianhunter said:


> I'm coming to realize,these debates,in a lot of cases do more harm than good.Lucifer and satan are the same,his name was changed,but he didn't or couldn't create anything,except diversity and corruption on this forum.



 

Good to know that the evils of the devil are limited to this forum!


----------



## christianhunter (Nov 5, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Good to know that the evils of the devil are limited to this forum!



No,but you can see my point,more insults.


----------



## Racer X (Nov 5, 2008)

I'm a little confused, Dixie Dawg.  Are you an atheist?  Or do you reject Jesus Christ?


----------



## farmasis (Nov 5, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Whoa... wait a minute.... Lucifer and satan are separate beings? That's a first for me.... verses?
> 
> I'd also love to see the verses where God gave Lucifer free will.
> 
> Of course, they would need to be verses from the "Old Testament"....


 
I never said they were different. I said Lucifer created Satan. What God created to be beautiful, was consumed in pride and created the evil being (in himself) that is Satan.
Sorry for the confusion.
Because Lucifer fell, shows his free will. Had he not free will, God would have kept him from falling.


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 5, 2008)

christianhunter said:


> No,but you can see my point,more insults.



What insults?  
I didn't insult you....


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 5, 2008)

farmasis said:


> I never said they were different. I said Lucifer created Satan. What God created to be beautiful, was consumed in pride and created the evil being (in himself) that is Satan.
> Sorry for the confusion.
> Because Lucifer fell, shows his free will. Had he not free will, God would have kept him from falling.



Ok, I see... you're saying Lucifer became satan... got it 
Still, would love some quotes from the "Old Testament" that say God gave Lucifer/Satan free will. 

The Isaiah 14:12 verse is a bit ambiguous... in my Hebrew bible, it does not say 'Lucifer'.  The Hebrew says "How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, you who have weakened the nations!"

The context of the verse is that this is a proverb against the king of Babylon... not satan.  Which makes sense because this is the only time this name is used in the KJV.  Everywhere else in the bible, the devil is referred to as Ha-satan... or, The Adversary.  In other words, the Jews didn't know of any 'Lucifer'.  (More info, check out JewishEncyclopedia here:  http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=612&letter=L  )

Of course, this does make things a little interesting as far as parallels go...  Revelation 22:16 says "I, Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches.  I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

I guess it makes things a little confusing... to have satan referred to as the morning star, and Jesus called that as well....


----------



## denise04 (Nov 5, 2008)

jehova is jesus the bible clearly states noone has ever saw god the father, if you reject jesus you also reject god the father for jesus is gods son and he says noone comes to the father except through me hes the only way to the father.


----------



## denise04 (Nov 5, 2008)

*jesus*



Dixie Dawg said:


> But it IS a matter of knowing where evil came from.  Once you understand that evil is created by God, you can know better how to resist it.  Isn't warfare all about knowing the 'enemy'??
> 
> God said Himself in the bible that He creates evil.  Yes, of course, it is a choice.  Satan is nothing more than an angel of God, still, to this day, who does the work that God sets him out to do.  His job is to tempt God's creation.  Always has been.  He didn't rebel against God, that is his JOB.
> 
> ...


 matthewch10 verses32 whosoever therefore shall confess me before men him will i confess also before my father wich is in heaven verse 33 but whosoever shall deny me before men him will i also deny before my father wich is in heaven


----------



## denise04 (Nov 5, 2008)

do you not accept any of the new testiment it always seems you quote the old testiment that was before jesus came you need to read the new testiment that was after jesus came


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Nov 5, 2008)

Buckmoses said:


> "Truly I percieve that God shows no partiality. In every nation, anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to Him."
> 
> If you think you are right and everyone else is wrong, you are just a Christian version on Bin Laden. Until we become more tolerant, we will continue to blow each other up in ignorance and tribalism.
> 
> I love the bumper sticker thaat says "Focus on your own dam family."


 

Was Jesus tolerant? Is God tolerant?

DB BB


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 5, 2008)

denise04 said:


> matthewch10 verses32 whosoever therefore shall confess me before men him will i confess also before my father wich is in heaven verse 33 but whosoever shall deny me before men him will i also deny before my father wich is in heaven



What does that have to do with the verses in question?


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 5, 2008)

denise04 said:


> do you not accept any of the new testiment it always seems you quote the old testiment that was before jesus came you need to read the new testiment that was after jesus came




Aaaaahhhh yes.... wow, it's been a long time since someone came right out and said it like that again.  Brings back memories of churches I have been to in the past.  Don't worry about the Old Testament, that's ancient stuff!! You only need to read the New Testament... in fact, here, take this as a free gift from us... a copy of your own New Testament... we've printed it up just for folks like you, left off all of that confusing, pesky Old testament stuff!   

You said you were a pastor's daughter, right?  I guess even the pastor's daughter realizes that the New Testament (Jesus) has nothing to do with the Old Testament.  Thanks for helping me make my point


----------



## christianhunter (Nov 5, 2008)

You've never read The Psalms evidently,there is enough scripture there pointing to JESUS,without having to use any from the other Prophets,to prove you wrong.


----------



## DOXIELADY (Nov 5, 2008)

<embed src="http://godtube.com/flvplayer.swf" FlashVars="viewkey=73be0cd25e0f12dd1ea7" wmode="transparent" quality="high" width="330" height="270" name="godtube" align="middle" allowScriptAccess="sameDomain" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" /></embed>


----------



## PWalls (Nov 5, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Aaaaahhhh yes.... wow, it's been a long time since someone came right out and said it like that again.  Brings back memories of churches I have been to in the past.  Don't worry about the Old Testament, that's ancient stuff!! You only need to read the New Testament... in fact, here, take this as a free gift from us... a copy of your own New Testament... we've printed it up just for folks like you, left off all of that confusing, pesky Old testament stuff!
> 
> You said you were a pastor's daughter, right?  I guess even the pastor's daughter realizes that the New Testament (Jesus) has nothing to do with the Old Testament.  Thanks for helping me make my point




She didn't make any of those accusations or insinuations. She asked simply why do you only quote the Old Testament. She then pointed you to read the New Testament as well.

She does not have the history that some of us had here on this forum with your posts in the past and present. She doesn't know about your bitterness and crusade of condemnation of Christianity.


----------



## Huntinfool (Nov 5, 2008)

Hey Dixie, you didn't respond to my post a while back.  Curious what you think.

Funny...none of these arguments will ever work.  Why?  Because you don't believe the NT is God's word in addition to the OT.  So while much of our belief system is based on the NT, you dismiss it as "made up" or something like that.  So there really is no way for us to discuss these issues and ever come to some agreement.

I guess those of us who wish to "convince" you have to resign ourselves to ONLY using the OT.  While I'm not yet convinced that's impossible, it does take Jesus out of the picture to a major degree...and that is much of what we believe in.  I'm troubled a little.


----------



## farmasis (Nov 5, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Ok, I see... you're saying Lucifer became satan... got it
> Still, would love some quotes from the "Old Testament" that say God gave Lucifer/Satan free will.
> 
> The Isaiah 14:12 verse is a bit ambiguous... in my Hebrew bible, it does not say 'Lucifer'. The Hebrew says "How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, you who have weakened the nations!"
> ...


 
I think it all boils down to what you believe is the Word of God. If you cut enough out, the Bible will tell you what you want it to say.


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 5, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Hey Dixie, you didn't respond to my post a while back.  Curious what you think.
> 
> Funny...none of these arguments will ever work.  Why?  Because you don't believe the NT is God's word in addition to the OT.  So while much of our belief system is based on the NT, you dismiss it as "made up" or something like that.  So there really is no way for us to discuss these issues and ever come to some agreement.
> 
> I guess those of us who wish to "convince" you have to resign ourselves to ONLY using the OT.  While I'm not yet convinced that's impossible, it does take Jesus out of the picture to a major degree...and that is much of what we believe in.  I'm troubled a little.



Sorry, Huntinfool, which post are you talking about? I may have overlooked it...

You're right... if it can't be shown in the Old Testament, then it doesn't hold water.  If Jesus really is God in the flesh, then it should be easy to prove using the Old Testament.  The problem is, for every 'proof' text given, I can show you how that text has been mistranslated, twisted, taken out of context or just plain fabricated in order to support the Christian religion.  

I know that it is hard for some of you to believe, given the fact that the only "Kerri" most of you have known is the hard-headed non-Christian Kerri... but at one time I would have argued the case for Christ just as hard as most of you do.  I had questions.  A lot of them.  Pretty much the same questions as I do even today.   I read the Old Testament, as it is, for what it said, nothing more... no twisting scripture, no taking it out of context, just reading it like a book... and I did not find Jesus in it.  He isn't there.   And if he isn't in the Old Testament, then anything the New Testament says doesn't matter.


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 5, 2008)

farmasis said:


> I think it all boils down to what you believe is the Word of God. If you cut enough out, the Bible will tell you what you want it to say.



So are you saying that you don't have any verses from the Old Testament showing God gave any of the angels, including Satan, free will?   

I haven't cut anything out of the Old Testament.  I know what it says.  It is the Christians who cut out and add on to make it say what THEY want it to.


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 5, 2008)

PWalls said:


> She didn't make any of those accusations or insinuations. She asked simply why do you only quote the Old Testament. She then pointed you to read the New Testament as well.



Yes, it was insinuated... 'you only read the Old testament? That was before jesus came... you need to read the New Testament."  I definitely see the insinuation there.



> She does not have the history that some of us had here on this forum with your posts in the past and present. She doesn't know about your bitterness and crusade of condemnation of Christianity.



Crusade?  
Hardly.
In case you haven't noticed, I have many 'spurts' when I log on to Woody's at all or even get into these discussions.  My schedule does not always allow for me to have the luxury of posting on here much... I am in 2 schools, one working on my bachelor's in psychology, one working on my bachelor's in holistic theology and metaphysics.  I am also in the process of obtaining my credentials as a certified hypnotist.  On top of that, I work an average of 70 hours a week and have a teenage daughter who is VERY active in marching band, jazz band, chorale, indoor drumline, wind ensemble and numerous other school activities.   The only reason I have had time the last few days to post as much as I have is because I have a break from now until December 1 in my classes for my bachelor's degrees.

The only reason I discuss these things with others on this forum (or anywhere else) is because I enjoy it.  I always learn something new, even if I don't agree with it.  It keeps me brushed up on my New Testament, and I enjoy the discussion and debate.

The only thing I would be 'crusading' for is more hours in a day


----------



## PWalls (Nov 5, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> The only reason I discuss these things with others on this forum (or anywhere else) is because I enjoy it.



Kerri, it is a fact that anyone can see that you "enjoy" coming in here and telling us all how wrong Christianity is. So, yes, you have a mission or crusade in your own mind to discount anything to do with Christianity.

But, having said that, it only bothers me sometimes (and that is my fault really). You are actually strengthening my faith.


----------



## Huntinfool (Nov 5, 2008)

Dixie, 

See post 109.


PWalls....do we not also "enjoy" telling her how wrong she is?  It's all a matter of perspective.  I'm absolutely convinced I'm right.  Kerri is absolutely convinced I'm dillusional if I believe in this stuff.  Why would she not try to convince me just as hard as I want to convince her? 

I'd rather her be here and question me than not even bother asking.


----------



## dawg2 (Nov 5, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Dixie,
> 
> See post 109.
> 
> ...




Because two delusional people can not have a constructive conversation


----------



## Huntinfool (Nov 5, 2008)

Excellent point sir!


----------



## dawg2 (Nov 5, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Excellent point sir!



Just yanking yur chain


----------



## PWalls (Nov 5, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> PWalls....do we not also "enjoy" telling her how wrong she is?  It's all a matter of perspective.  I'm absolutely convinced I'm right.  Kerri is absolutely convinced I'm dillusional if I believe in this stuff.  Why would she not try to convince me just as hard as I want to convince her?



Enjoy is a little strong I think.  If a person is not strong enough in their faith to be able to discuss these issues, then it is better if they do not get involved in some of them because it rapidly digresses into name calling and such. And, honestly over the last many years, these points of view from both sides have been hashed and re-hashed a lot.

But, sometimes it is fun to watch new people start the hash all over again.


----------



## farmasis (Nov 5, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> So are you saying that you don't have any verses from the Old Testament showing God gave any of the angels, including Satan, free will?
> 
> I haven't cut anything out of the Old Testament. I know what it says. It is the Christians who cut out and add on to make it say what THEY want it to.


 
The plan of salvation is explained in the OT. The coming prophecy of the Messiah, also. You want to stick to the Torah, because then you can ignore the parts of the Bible you do not like.

Like I said, if Lucifer had no free will, he couldn't have decided to become a god himself. Just as Adam and Eve chose to become like God. It doesn't matter if a verse if there or not, like the trinity the concept is clear.


----------



## DOXIELADY (Nov 5, 2008)

Well my heart is heavy for you dixie ,and it should be ,for each and every person that wont except the Lord as there Savior,its sad that he has made a way for you to enter into Heaven  and give you a more abundent life in him,you have the truth of it right here and throughout the whole Bible and you turn it away ,while others are willing to go to prison and even die to get the privledge to worship him,I am sad that you take his word and you turn it into a game really for your enjoyment of debate ,instead of really seeking the truth ,when he suffered more than our minds can comprehend to give his word to help guide you and lead you and strengthen your faith and to show you that there is a remedy for sin ,I read both the old and new testament to take away either one is wrong ,I wouldnt buy a bible that just had a copy of the new testament,you have enough people who has shared the truth with you on here that if you really wanted the truth you could find it easily,right now you may think you dont need the Lord ,but someday you will and I hope that its when you still have time and opportunity,


----------



## Racer X (Nov 5, 2008)

Well, I've read a few of your posts, Dixie Dawg, and have come to this conclusion.  You is very rebellious.  You is wise in your own eyes.  And you is believin' in two Gods.  Benevolent and Malevolent.  

OR, she jus like playin'.  After all, she has a degree in psychology.  

Pagan?  Does it really matter to you?


----------



## Ronnie T (Nov 5, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> You said you were a pastor's daughter, right?  *I guess even the pastor's daughter realizes that the New Testament (Jesus) has nothing to do with the Old Testament.*  Thanks for helping me make my point



Ofcourse the NewTestament has something to do with the Old.  And yes, Jesus has much to do with the Old.  The Old Testament was the Bible that Jesus read.  The Old Testament was the first to speak of the coming Messiah.  On and On and On.
I know you disagree with me, but we disagree because you refuse God's Son and His death on the cross.  I would expect you to disagree.


----------



## mtnwoman (Nov 5, 2008)

What made Peter deny Christ 3 times, then turn around and be willing to be crusified upside down in the name of Christ.
Something changed his mind?
Let's see what was it?
Proof?

Uh yeah that's it...the resurrection.

Saul killed Christians and he was blind to Jesus...God brought him to his knees. Saul was a Jew. God changed his name to Paul after rendering him truly blind...he wrote much of the NT. He wasn't a disciple, where did he get all his info from that just so happened to match the disciples descriptions and prophesy in the OT.
Oh I know, the witnesses of the resurrection and decent of Jesus into heaven.

God said he would provide Himself a lamb....He did...a lamb to be sacrificed once and for all, for our sins. The lamb's name was Jesus, the Son of God, the Lamb of God, my redeemer, my deliverer, my saviour. How do I know? I know by the indwelling of the Holy Ghost, my comforter.

If I'm wrong, I'll just die and won't know the difference. If I'm right then I'll die and go to heaven...simple as that, my way has been bought and paid for by the blood of the lamb....my life spared, just like in the passover.


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 5, 2008)

christianhunter said:


> You've never read The Psalms evidently,there is enough scripture there pointing to JESUS,without having to use any from the other Prophets,to prove you wrong.



I'm your huckleberry......


----------



## dawg2 (Nov 5, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I'm your huckleberry......



_You're no daisy_----->SBG said that to me in a debate about a year ago


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 5, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Kerri, it is a fact that anyone can see that you "enjoy" coming in here and telling us all how wrong Christianity is. So, yes, you have a mission or crusade in your own mind to discount anything to do with Christianity



I admitted I enjoy coming on here and debating with y'all.  But that's not a mission or a crusade.  I could join a bowling league, but this is more enjoyable to me 



> But, having said that, it only bothers me sometimes (and that is my fault really). You are actually strengthening my faith.



I've been told that by others before on here, and I'll say the same thing now as I did then... GOOD!!  If these types of debates cause people to dust off their Old Testament and do some reading and digging in, or if it makes them have to go ask their pastor a question next Sunday at church, then how can that be bad?  

If you're going to put your faith in something, then KNOW what you're putting your faith in... not just the catch phrases, memorized key verses and  religious jargon.  I believe even the NT tells you to be able to have an answer for the faith that you claim, doesn't it?

Look, I'm not claiming that I'm better than anyone else.  I have screwed up plenty in my life.  In fact... wait, let me check... yes, I have broken every single one of the first ten commandments at some point and in some fashion throughout my life.  Every single one of them.  Most of them were broken even when I was a Christian.  I don't have all the answers, either.  I don't believe in the bible the same way as you do, not even the Old Testament, although I hold it as much more historically reliable than the New Testament.

There was a time in my life that I believed in Jesus with all my heart.  I have said it before on here and I'll repeat it for those who are new... at one time I had even sat my 6-year old daughter down and explained to her that if things got bad and anyone ever threatened to kill her because of her belief in Jesus, that she had to say yes, she still believed, even if it meant she would die for it.  And I would gladly have died for my faith.

Yet now, I would take the bullet before I would ever say I believed Jesus was God.  

If these kinds of arguments/debates/discussions cause your faith to be as strong for Jesus as mine is against it, then it is of benefit to both of us


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 5, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Dixie,
> 
> See post 109.
> 
> ...



I agree, it's all a matter of perspective. 
But for the record, I don't think you (or any other believer) are delusional.  Misguided, maybe, but not delusional    

You know I ain't got nothin' but love for ya!  

In all seriousness, I do understand how it is you believe in the NT.  I used to believe it too.  But if you don't just take what you're told and actually dig a little deeper, it falls apart.  

No offense, but you yourself have told me that when it comes to looking things up, you're lazy.  I think many Christians are.  That's not meant to be offensive, so please don't get your feathers ruffled.  What I mean is, it's much easier to believe in something that is hand fed to you, already packaged nice and neat and put on a platter.  Many Christians don't bother to ask questions, they dismiss anything they don't understand by chalking it up to needing more 'faith'.  And I make these assumptions based on my own experiences and the experiences of those I have known in the church.

But no, I don't think you're delusional.


----------



## Ronnie T (Nov 6, 2008)

The conflict in all this is (1) all that has occurred to you faith and conscience in your search for faith in Christ and (2) what happened to such people as C.S. Lewis.  C.S. was a diehard atheist who set about to prove that all of it was wrong, stupid and not logical at all.  He became a man who dedicated his life to Christ and provided the rest of us with greater insights into our being able to turn loose of our human way of thinking.
You come away with a totally different conclusion.
Which of you is right?  What makes you right.


----------



## denise04 (Nov 6, 2008)

*thnks*



PWalls said:


> She didn't make any of those accusations or insinuations. She asked simply why do you only quote the Old Testament. She then pointed you to read the New Testament as well.
> 
> She does not have the history that some of us had here on this forum with your posts in the past and present. She doesn't know about your bitterness and crusade of condemnation of Christianity.


  youre right im new here i dont no any of you hahah i was just asking has she read the new testiment. all  i no is if she doesnt accept jesus as gods son it will be a bad thing since we will all appear before him and be judged its her choice.


----------



## denise04 (Nov 6, 2008)

*h*



Huntinfool said:


> Dixie,
> 
> See post 109.
> 
> ...


 actually im the one who started this thread and i really dont like someone on this thread who dont believe in jesus so can i ban her and im not being rude only honest


----------



## holton27596 (Nov 6, 2008)

it is a shame that all those indians in the Amazon (and other aboriginal people) are condemed to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- becasue they had the misfortune to live in an area where they have never heard of Jesus


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 6, 2008)

denise04 said:


> actually im the one who started this thread and i really dont like someone on this thread who dont believe in jesus so can i ban her and im not being rude only honest



 

So who was your post for?
Were you telling Christians, who already believe in Jesus, that Jesus is the only way?  Isn't that a bit redundant?  

I don't think you can ban me (or anyone else who posted on the thread that doesn't believe in Jesus) from posting on this thread, but you can delete the entire thing


----------



## Racer X (Nov 6, 2008)

holton27596 said:


> it is a shame that all those indians in the Amazon (and other aboriginal people) are condemed to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- becasue they had the misfortune to live in an area where they have never heard of Jesus



Who says they're condemned?


----------



## holton27596 (Nov 6, 2008)

apparantly denise. she says the ONLY way to heaven is through Jesus.


----------



## Racer X (Nov 6, 2008)

It is, but if you've never heard of him then how could you reject or accept him?  

If a person doesn't know what sin is then how can they commit a sin?  The knowledge of law is the knowledge of sin.

Sin entered in through man.  Adam.  With that came knowledge of sin.  Follow?


----------



## dawg2 (Nov 6, 2008)

denise04 said:


> actually im the one who started this thread and i really dont like someone on this thread who dont believe in jesus so can i ban her and im not being rude only honest



No.  It is a "Spiritual Discussions, Debate and Study" Forum, not a "I love Jesus" and I hate Catholics as seen in your first post


----------



## holton27596 (Nov 6, 2008)

Racer, that is my point.


----------



## Racer X (Nov 6, 2008)

Sorry Holton, maybe I didn't see it.


----------



## farmasis (Nov 6, 2008)

The only sin that cannot be forgiven is blasphamy of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus will be revealed to all of man, and their hearts will be judged on if they reject the Holy Spirit calling of who Jesus is.
I believe it will happen to all men and women somehow, someday.


----------



## Huntinfool (Nov 7, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I agree, it's all a matter of perspective.
> But for the record, I don't think you (or any other believer) are delusional.  Misguided, maybe, but not delusional
> 
> You know I ain't got nothin' but love for ya!
> ...



You're right!  I did say I was lazy.  BUT, I hope you know me well enough, even through this medium, to know that I NEVER believe something just because it's told to me.  That, to me, is the worst kind of laziness.  It's intellectual laziness.  I'm just physically lazy.

I ask questions all the time and I have questioned and questioned.  I think you and I took opposite paths though.  I asked my questions on the front end.  I didn't believe most of it.  It just didn't make sense to me.

But then....then I had an experience that changed me forever.  If I'm honest?  I don't need the Bible to know that Jesus is real, that he died for me and the was waiting patiently for me.  I love that it's there and I'm glad that my faith allows me to accept what might not seem logical every once in a while.  

I'm just fully convinced that you cannot walk away when you have the kind of real experience with the living God that I had.  You wouldn't need everything in the Bible to make perfect sense either.


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 7, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> You're right!  I did say I was lazy.  BUT, I hope you know me well enough, even through this medium, to know that I NEVER believe something just because it's told to me.  That, to me, is the worst kind of laziness.  It's intellectual laziness.  I'm just physically lazy.
> 
> I ask questions all the time and I have questioned and questioned.  I think you and I took opposite paths though.  I asked my questions on the front end.  I didn't believe most of it.  It just didn't make sense to me.
> 
> ...



I don't doubt that your experience was real and was life-changing.  But I do doubt that you didn't need the bible to know that Jesus is real.  Maybe now you don't, because you already believe in Jesus.  If it wasn't for the bible, you would not know a thing about Jesus or that he even existed.  The Indians didn't have the bible, therefore they didn't know about Jesus.   I suppose it could be argued that if Jesus were the messiah, everyone would know him and there would be no need for missionaries or anything else, since one of the prophecies is that the messiah will bring universal knowledge of God.

I am happy for you that you have contentment in your faith in Jesus.  I'm glad that you can accept the answers that you are given and have no doubts about what you believe in. I just can't put my whole faith in things that don't make sense to me.  God just didn't make me that way, I guess.  But there is one thing we definitely agree on... while physical laziness is bad, it is much worse to be intellectually lazy


----------



## Huntinfool (Nov 7, 2008)

That's correct.  I didn't say I NEVER needed it...I said I don't need it now to know that he's real.  But, again, you're correct.  The Messiah (and no I'm not talking about Obama) WILL bring universal knowledge of God.  

EVERY knee will bow and EVERY toungue confess.  But I think he's still in the process of doing it.

The indians didn't have the Bible, your right.  They didn't know and I don't have the answer about people who have come and gone and never known about Jesus.  But they didn't know about God either, right?  You believe in God...so what then?  I don't have the answer as to how they were or will be dealt with.

I do know that we've been called to take the message to the globe.  I figure God has a plan for those who come and go in the interim.  I would suggest that God does not hold you accountable for what you do not know....somehow.  So is it better to have never heard?  That's a good question.


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 7, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> The indians didn't have the Bible, your right.  They didn't know and I don't have the answer about people who have come and gone and never known about Jesus.  But they didn't know about God either, right?



Sure they did.  Just not the same way you do 
They believed in a greater power.  So did the Egyptians. So did many other societies and peoples throughout history.  They didn't put the same name on this power/creator as you do.  Does that make them wrong? That's one thing I struggled with.  I never really could understand how there could be only one way to God.


----------



## Huntinfool (Nov 7, 2008)

So, not to change the subject....

But I'm curious.  If we assume Jesus does not exist (at least not in the terms of being the son of God, Savior of the world, etc), how would you explain my experience?  What would you say about that?  And, please, don't be worried that I'll be offended in any way.

I'm just curious.  You don't need to know the details.  Just know that I'm convinced and it was VERY clear to me who was speaking to me and what they were saying.  Did I miss something?  Was I wrong?  Surely there has to be an explanation if Jesus isn't who I think he is.


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 7, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> So, not to change the subject....
> 
> But I'm curious.  If we assume Jesus does not exist (at least not in the terms of being the son of God, Savior of the world, etc), how would you explain my experience?  What would you say about that?  And, please, don't be worried that I'll be offended in any way.
> 
> I'm just curious.  You don't need to know the details.  Just know that I'm convinced and it was VERY clear to me who was speaking to me and what they were saying.  Did I miss something?  Was I wrong?  Surely there has to be an explanation if Jesus isn't who I think he is.



I don't know how I can even attempt to answer that if I don't know what your experience was.  I'm not sure I've ever seen you say just what it was you've experienced... ?


----------



## Huntinfool (Nov 7, 2008)

The point is that I am convinced I had a encounter...and experience with Christ.  

If he is not who I say he is, then how else can I explain my experience?  The experience itself is inconsequential.


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Nov 7, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> The point is that I am convinced I had a encounter...and experience with Christ.
> 
> If he is not who I say he is, then how else can I explain my experience?  The experience itself is inconsequential.



Not knowing anything about it, I can't explain it.  Any more than I can explain people who are convinced that they have had an experience with Buddah or other religious icon.  I can't explain the experiences of people who are convinced they have seen ghosts, talked to them, heard their voices. 

I think much of it depends on what your own faith is.  For example, if I told you that I had an encounter with the spirit of my deceased mother, and she told me in that encounter that heaven was real but Jesus wasn't the way to get there, what would you say of my encounter? Most Christians would probably say it was the devil in disguise.  Yet to me, I would be convinced it was my mother. (hypothetically speaking, of course.)

A lot of it too is probably having hope in something better than what you have now.  There are people in every faith and religion who have stories about how terrible their lives were until they found their faith... be it Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Judaism, or one of the other dozens of religions out there.  Hope is a powerful thing, and faith, in whatever capacity, can definitely change lives.  But I think it is more the idea of hope than it is the actual religion.  And the reason I think this is because it happens in ALL religions.


----------



## Scrambler89 (Nov 19, 2008)

DD-So you discount everything in the Bible? It was just made up, a good story?
What about the Ten Commandments is that Gods' Law?


----------



## Huntinfool (Nov 20, 2008)

She believes the OT....just not the NT because she sees things that contradict the OT in the NT. 

Dixie, if I didn't get that right, feel free to  me.


----------



## gtparts (Nov 20, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> She believes the OT....just not the NT because she sees things that contradict the OT in the NT.
> 
> Dixie, if I didn't get that right, feel free to  me.


 
You're close, Brother. But, she doesn't cotton to all the OT either. A delightful and frustrating creature of the forum, sometimes bold, sometimes retiring, a hodge-podge of spiritual knowledge and gross misunderstanding, elusive and private one moment, exposed and vulnerable the next, a denizen of the dark forest and a child of the spring lea. She is Enigma. 

A Warning to All Who Travel This Road! 
Be alert and tread softly.


----------



## gtparts (Nov 20, 2008)

What???

Can't a guy have a little fun?


----------

