# Problems with Muzzy Broadheads?



## bnew17 (Oct 16, 2007)

i shoot a brand new Mathews Drenalin. Shootin 100 grain field tips and 100 grain Muzzy 4 blade broad heads. I had been practicin with my tips and threw a broad head in there and it was shootin about 8" -10" to the right.. anybody else had this problem with Muzzy broadheads.


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## Trizey (Oct 16, 2007)

Sounds like your bow is not in tune.....  It's not the Muzzy's, any broadhead will be thrown if your bow isn't in tune.


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## Jody Hawk (Oct 16, 2007)

It could very well be the Muzzy's not aligning straight with the arrow shaft. Spin an arrow on a flat hard surface with the broadhead attached and watch where the broadhead and shaft meet and see if you have any wobble. It should spin smoothly with no wobble. If it does your broadheads are either not lined up with the shaft or your ferules are bent. If it wobbles, it will plane !!!!!!!!! I've had ferules bend on Muzzy broadheads. It could very well be your bow too !!!


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## Larry Rooks (Oct 16, 2007)

If it is not the arrow/broadhead combination, it is the bow.
I wiould almost gaurantee that the bow is not tuned 100% perfect.  Do you see ANY kind of kick in the arrow in flight?
Have you paper tuned the bow to see if it is shooting a perfect bullet hole as the arrow passes thru?  And like the man said, have you tested all of your arrows as far as spinning the head goes?  If there is ANY wobble, it ain't
gonna shoot straight, PERIOD.

If you have done the above and all checks out, shoot three arrows with broadheads on en and see where they group.
Then shoot a three arrow group with field points and see where they group.  IF the field points are center and the braodheads are 8-10 inches right, move the arrow rest to the left and repeat.  Move in small increments until the field points and braodheads group TOGETHER, then part of your tuning problem is solved


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## try2shoot (Oct 16, 2007)

Easton has a tuning guide you can download. It has helped me on setting my last couple bows up. 
try2shoot
https://www.eastonarchery.com/downloads.asp


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## DaddyPaul (Oct 16, 2007)

Could either be a centershot issue, torque, weak spined arrows, etc.  If the Muzzys are consistently hitting in the same area you can mark the Muzzys off of your list as the culprit IMO.

Give us some more infor on your bow and what type arrows you are shooting.  

One easy thing to check is take about 2 turns out of each limb bolt and re-shoot the Muzzys and see where they hit.  This will tell you if it is a spine issue or not.


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## Booner Killa (Oct 16, 2007)

It was the opposite for me. I had my broadheads tuned with wasp 75 gr hammers. My arrows were hitting all over the place. I screwed in a muzzy just to see what would happen and they were driving tacks at 30 yds. I couldn't believe it cause muzzy's have such a reputation for being hard to get accurate.


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## DaddyPaul (Oct 16, 2007)

Booner Killa said:


> I couldn't believe it cause muzzy's have such a reputation for being hard to get accurate.



You know I hear that all the time but have never had any trouble getting mine to fly great?


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## Full Pull (Oct 16, 2007)

I use the 3 blade muzzy's 100 and the Mx3's  in 100gran and just a little site ajust from using field points and good to go. I realy like shooting them.
I also shoot a Hoyt and fly Easton 400 mossyoak carbons.


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## Greg Tench (Oct 16, 2007)

DaddyPaul said:


> You know I hear that all the time but have never had any trouble getting mine to fly great?



Same here DP. I shot 4 blade 90 grn until they came out with mx-3s. Never had a problem.


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## robert carter (Oct 16, 2007)

I have never had a problem with muzzy heads and I shoot recurves and longbows not cut to center.Best flying heads I`ve ever shot ,BUT then again I can bare shaft to fifteen yards in a three inch group.RC


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## DaddyPaul (Oct 16, 2007)

My bare shafts fly pretty well too RC!


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## Jasper (Oct 17, 2007)

Larry Rooks said:


> If it is not the arrow/broadhead combination, it is the bow.
> I wiould almost gaurantee that the bow is not tuned 100% perfect.  Do you see ANY kind of kick in the arrow in flight?
> Have you paper tuned the bow to see if it is shooting a perfect bullet hole as the arrow passes thru?  And like the man said, have you tested all of your arrows as far as spinning the head goes?  If there is ANY wobble, it ain't
> gonna shoot straight, PERIOD.
> ...



Good advice right there. I've NEVER had a problem with how Muzzy's fly.


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## Glenn (Oct 17, 2007)

I bought a pack of 3 blade 125 grain last year and they would not fly well for me at all. So I went back to the 100 grain 4 blade and they fly like field points.

The only thing I could figure is the larger blades were steering the arrow.

I have always shot Muzzy's and maybe I bought a bad pack of broadheads.


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## kbotta (Oct 17, 2007)

there;s a lot of good advice right here. Start with your arrow, and wobble with the BH. Then move to the Bow. I had that same issue a few years ago, and took my bow in to get it tuned professionally. Never had the problem again - and now my muzzy's fly like my field points.
Good advice guys!!
Kev


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## duckbill (Oct 17, 2007)

gatrapper said:


> Muzzys did the same to mine.  Switched to Motecs(sp) and they flew just like my field tips and they are a fixed blade.  I love em.



My bow dislikes Muzzy's.   I had my bow tuned and it still doesn't like them.   I ordered some G5 Montecs to try.

The 100gr 3-blade Muzzys flew like they had a broken rutter  .  I switched to 125gr 3-blades and they are "managable", but not as accurate as I would like.  Field tips fly great.


I'm one of those people who will always get the "oddball".  You could set 100 bows up and I would pick out the most finicky one of them all  .


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## Alan in GA (Oct 17, 2007)

*another theory,,,,*

I always thought it best to get field tips and broadheads to hit the same spot. Then I read a post that made even more sense to me. The two points are not alike. You might get a bow that will tune to get both types of points together,,but neither point is really tuned to it's 'best'.
It's season, why not tune your bow to where it GROUPS BROADHEADS [only]  the best and then sight in with that state of tune? Shoot broadhead [practise broadheads] for the duration of deer season.
Just a thought but it made sense to me. Normally I'm somewhat of a perfectionist,,but I do believe I can see where trying to get a bow to where it will put field tips and broadheads together at all ranges might be exasperating.
I'l like to know what the more experienced archers here think about it, too.


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## puredrenalin (Oct 17, 2007)

Muzzy's (with in the last 4-5 years) arent known for flyin true, However, my Dren shoots them fine, I currently shoot the Stainless Extreme or the T-locks, but most muzzy's fly 8-10" right or left, at least thats what I have seen in the 15+ bows that come in and have issues with broadhead flight shooting muzzy's. 

Im NOT bashing the broadhead, Ive shot them for 11 years and they flew well out of my Xi Legend Mag, but my HCA didnt like them, and the Dren seems to shoot them all well-Just making a point, its not always the bow, it truly can be the broadhead sometimes!!


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## DaddyPaul (Oct 17, 2007)

Glenn said:


> I bought a pack of 3 blade 125 grain last year and they would not fly well for me at all. So I went back to the 100 grain 4 blade and they fly like field points.
> 
> The only thing I could figure is the larger blades were steering the arrow.
> 
> I have always shot Muzzy's and maybe I bought a bad pack of broadheads.




Sounds like a spine issue to me?  With the 125's you may have been a little on the weak side and with the 100's just right?


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## DaddyPaul (Oct 17, 2007)

duckbill said:


> My bow dislikes Muzzy's.   I had my bow tuned and it still doesn't like them.   I ordered some G5 Montecs to try.
> 
> The 100gr 3-blade Muzzys flew like they had a broken rutter  .  I switched to 125gr 3-blades and they are "managable", but not as accurate as I would like.  Field tips fly great.
> 
> ...



Again, perhaps a spine issue?


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## DaddyPaul (Oct 17, 2007)

Many times when I am sure I have my rest tuned as perfect as I can get it I then start looking at other causes if they are still not hitting with my field tips.

This year shooting the MX4's out of my Allegiance and Drenalin with Gold Tip 55/75's I determined I was a little underspined.  

To remedy this I backed the limb bolts out a little on both bows and kept working with it until they impacted together.  

I have gotten the occasional oddball head that just didn't seem to want to fly with the rest but it is more the exception than the rule in my experience.  If the shaft is true, the insert is true and the head spins true I can get it to hit with my field tips.

It is not always about just moving your rest.

Anybody wanting to get rid of their Muzzys I can PM you my address!


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## bnew17 (Oct 17, 2007)

take mine!


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## DaddyPaul (Oct 17, 2007)

bnew17 said:


> take mine!



You need an address?


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## robert carter (Oct 17, 2007)

I`ll take the 125 three blades and any 125 grain phantoms also. I would not want you fellas unhappy.RC


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## WildmanSC (Oct 17, 2007)

Larry Rooks said:


> IF the field points are center and the braodheads are 8-10 inches right, move the arrow rest to the left and repeat.  Move in small increments until the field points and braodheads group TOGETHER, then part of your tuning problem is solved



If the bow is RH, he doesn't want to move the arrow rest or sight to the left to get the broadhead tipped arrows to move left.  He will want to move the rest and/or sight to the right towards the impact point of the broadhead tipped arrows and that will move the impact point to the left.  Focus on the broadhead tipped arrows at this point as that is what you will be hunting with.  Before I moved anything though, I would back off the draw weight a couple turns on each limb and see what happens to the impact point with the broadhead tipped arrows.

Bill


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## reylamb (Oct 18, 2007)

WildmanSC said:


> If the bow is RH, he doesn't want to move the arrow rest or sight to the left to get the broadhead tipped arrows to move left.  He will want to move the rest and/or sight to the right towards the impact point of the broadhead tipped arrows and that will move the impact point to the left.  Focus on the broadhead tipped arrows at this point as that is what you will be hunting with.  Before I moved anything though, I would back off the draw weight a couple turns on each limb and see what happens to the impact point with the broadhead tipped arrows.
> 
> Bill



Not exactly dad.  If the BHs are hitting to the right of the field tips he does indeed need to move the rest to the left.  The center shot being off will have a greater impact on the BHs and cause them to fly farther in the direction that the center shot is off, in this case to the right.  BH hitting right of FT is either too stiff a spine reaction (for a RH compound with release), or center shot is too far to the right.  Moving the rest to the right will only cause the BHs to get farther to the right than the field tips, in this case. 

Unfortunately, without seeing his entire setup it could be one of too many variables.  Fortunately, he can verify most of those easily.  
-Spin the arrows and ensure the BH tipped arrows spin true.  
-Arrow spine should be easy to verify on the manufacturers website, or with arrow software; or by increasing or decreasing the poundage to see what effect that has on arrow flight or by changing the point weights.
-Fletch contact is easily checked with foot powder or lipstick.
-Bow torque can be checked by having someone else shoot the bow with FT and BH.  Granted it is not likely the bow will be pefectly sighted in for someone else, but it will still show the difference in POI between FT and BH for the other shooter.
-Center shot can be verified with either a walkback check or by simply moving the center shot and seeing what happens to the POI.

Getting FT and BH arrows to shoot the same POI can be frustrating, but it can be done.


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## DaddyPaul (Oct 18, 2007)

reylamb said:


> BH hitting right of FT is either too stiff a spine reaction (for a RH compound with release),



Wouldn't this be indicative of a weak spine reaction?  I thought for right handed shooters BH's to the left was stiff and to the right was weak?


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## Michael Lee (Oct 18, 2007)

DaddyPaul said:


> Wouldn't this be indicative of a weak spine reaction? I thought for right handed shooters BH's to the left was stiff and to the right was weak?


 
Yep.


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## reylamb (Oct 18, 2007)

Yes it is.....sorry about that.


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## WildmanSC (Oct 18, 2007)

*It's Easier With Longbows!*

rey,

It's easier to get the bows set up and the arrows impacting properly with longbows, IMHO!  I guess that's what a trad shooter gets for commenting on a POI issue with compounds!  Humble pie's not too bad if you have some fat free vanilla ice cream to go with it.  

Dad


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## Just 1 More (Oct 18, 2007)

I'm always amazed how the first thing people blame is the broadhead


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## duckbill (Oct 18, 2007)

Just 1 More said:


> I'm always amazed how the first thing people blame is the broadhead




That's generally because the bow shoots great with field tips, then you screw on a broadhead and you get erratic flight.  1 + 1 usually equals 2.  I guess when it comes to bow tuning, simple math does not apply.


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## Just 1 More (Oct 18, 2007)

duckbill said:


> That's generally because the bow shoots great with field tips, then you screw on a broadhead and you get erratic flight.  1 + 1 usually equals 2.  I guess when it comes to bow tuning, simple math does not apply.



You're right,,, bow tuning is an animal all it's own


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## WildmanSC (Oct 18, 2007)

*Neck Exposed, Again*

The stickbow shooter is going to stick his neck out, again!   The first thing I would do if I had either bare shafts not impacting with fletched shafts, or shafts with field points not impacting with shafts with broadheads is put the arrows with broadheads on a device with rollers or bearings on either end and rotate the shafts to see if the broadheads wobble.  

If the broadheads don't wobble, then I would take my center shot alignment tool, locate the center of the string on a nocked arrow, then rotate the tool to the other side of the riser to see if the arrow's centerline is at the same point as the center of the string.  If not, I would move the rests to bring the centerline of the arrow into alignment with the center of the string.

Then I would hang the bow on a hook so I could stand back and look at the site to see if the pins are aligned with the center of the string and arrow.  If not, I would move the sight to bring it into alignment.

Now, it's time to start shooting again.  If the POIs are still off, I would start reducing draw weight until they come together.  At this point you have a couple of options, decrease point weight so you can get your draw weight back to where you want, shorten the arrows, IF you have the length available to do so, to increase the spine, or change to a heavier spined arrow.  I think this would be my LAST option as arrows can be expensive.

Bill


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## reylamb (Oct 18, 2007)

Dad, stick to stick bows..............

Center shot tools or lazers are nifty for finding the static center shot of a bow, but do nothing for finding the true center shot of the bow once you factor in the moving string, torque from the cable guard, idler wheel lean, nock travel, string travel, etc......

Very rarely will the sights line up with the arrow and the string for any compound with a cable guard.  For most RH shooters the sights will be to the left of the string slightly.  Once again, that is caused by torque from the cable guard.  Those that are shooting the shoot-through cam system (or an equivalent) from Martin will typically have the sights in line with the string.  It is a by-product of having a cable guard.

Checking for wobble is good advice, and should be done early in the broadhead process.  Checking the spine is also good advice and should be done early in the process.

One could also add weight to the back of the shaft and effectively stiffen the shafts also.


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## duckbill (Oct 29, 2007)

gatrapper said:


> Muzzys did the same to mine.  Switched to Motecs(sp) and they flew just like my field tips and they are a fixed blade.  I love em.



I posted earlier in this thread that my Mathews LX did not like Muzzy's either.  I just tried the 100gr G5 Montecs and they fly perfect.


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## bnew17 (Oct 29, 2007)

its the broad head...my bow is brand new and set up properly,,,i bought some Rage 3 blade 100 grains,,, and they fly exactly like my field tips, it sho is nice. Ill never shoot muzzy again.


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## Just 1 More (Oct 29, 2007)

bnew17 said:


> its the broad head...my bow is brand new and set up properly,,,i bought some Rage 3 blade 100 grains,,, and they fly exactly like my field tips, it sho is nice. Ill never shoot muzzy again.



1st.. how do you know your bow is "set up" properly?? Did you tune it yourself? walk back, bare shaft, paper?? 

2nd.. How in the world can you compare a fixed blade to a mechanical


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## DaddyPaul (Oct 29, 2007)

bnew17 said:


> its the broad head...my bow is brand new and set up properly,,,i bought some Rage 3 blade 100 grains,,, and they fly exactly like my field tips, it sho is nice. Ill never shoot muzzy again.



I can almost guarantee you I can get your Muzzys to fly with your field tips.  It is not magic, nor does it require a degree in aerospace engineering.  You just need a few things to make it happen and some of these are not even  mandatory but I think help in most cases.

1.  Properly spined arrows.
2.  Squared arrow ends (both ends).
3.  Properly installed inserts that are also squared.
4.  A good helical or offset fletch job for steering. 
5.  Broadheads that spin true on the arrow (see 2 and 3).
6.  A properly tuned bow.
7.  Good and consistent shooting form.

Having said that I am glad you found a head you like and have confidence in, good luck to you.


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## bnew17 (Oct 30, 2007)

Just 1 More said:


> 1st.. how do you know your bow is "set up" properly?? Did you tune it yourself? walk back, bare shaft, paper??
> 
> 2nd.. How in the freakin world can you compare a fixed blade to a mechanical




hey buddy im not a beginner to bow hunting,,,yes i did everything,,,me and my buddy who is the head of the archery dept for bass pro shops...shot it through paper,and all that,,,,good enough for ya? and how do you compare fixed and mechanical,,,by shootin them,,, one flew true to my field tips and one didnt.


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## DaddyPaul (Oct 30, 2007)

Let's take it easy fellas!

bnew17,
Did you ever try my suggestion in post #6 and turn the limb bolts out 2 turns and re-shoot the Muzzys?  One more question, what is your centershot currently set at?  OK I lied a few more questions, what arrows are you shooting, length, poundage of bow and draw length. 

Fixed blade heads can be finnicky and if they are not launched perfectly straight from the bow they will plane due to the air catching the blades on the head.  The further back you go the further they plane.  Expandables shouldn't be used to mask a tuning or spine problem as penetration will suffer in the end.


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## duckbill (Oct 30, 2007)

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I really don't want to have to go thru a 10pt check list every time I leave for the woods.  I want the setup that is going to be the least finnicky.  I understand that a bow needs to be tuned and mine is (according to the pro shop).  However, I don't feel it should be as complicated as you guys make it.  I mean, 25 yrs ago I could hit a 2" circle at 25yds with a plain old recurve with no sights.  
I have tried all kinds of things to get a 3blade 100gr Muzzy to fly on my bow and have been unsuccessful.  It flies great with field tips, Thunderheads, Satellites and now G5 Montecs.  

I respect you guys and your knowledge of bows, but I want something that requires as little maintenance as possible.  There is too much else to be concerned with when bowhunting.


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## DaddyPaul (Oct 30, 2007)

duckbill said:


> Please don't take this the wrong way, but I really don't want to have to go thru a 10pt check list every time I leave for the woods.  I want the setup that is going to be the least finnicky.  I understand that a bow needs to be tuned and mine is (according to the pro shop).  However, I don't feel it should be as complicated as you guys make it.  I mean, 25 yrs ago I could hit a 2" circle at 25yds with a plain old recurve with no sights.
> I have tried all kinds of things to get a 3blade 100gr Muzzy to fly on my bow and have been unsuccessful.  It flies great with field tips, Thunderheads, Satellites and now G5 Montecs.
> 
> I respect you guys and your knowledge of bows, but I want something that requires as little maintenance as possible.  There is too much else to be concerned with when bowhunting.



Bill, 
To me it is not complicated at all.  It is just a set of necessary steps to ensure my equipment is tuned as perfectly as I can get it.  I don't like to rely on somebody else to tune my bows, that way I know it is right.  It is also something I find very enjoyable to do.

As for why several fixed heads fly well out of your bow and the Muzzys don't................well you got me on that.  It would stand to reason that once the bow was tuned properly that most heads should fly reasonably well out of it?  At least to me it makes sense?

Some heads with smaller profiles will fly better than bigger heads naturally but like I said they should all fly pretty good after the bow is tuned properly.

25 years ago we weren't shooting the speeds we are today which makes broadhead flight even more tricky. 

Bottom line is this:  Find a head that shoots well out of your bow and that you have confidence in and keep shooting it!  In the end that is all that matters.

P.S.  Please PM me for an address for all of the leftover Muzzys.  I likes 'em!


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## SETH (Oct 30, 2007)

I agree with DaddyPaul, it is not complicated at all. The things he is telling you about the bow and arrow tuning is something you should be doing regardless of what broadhead BRAND you are shooting. 
I am a fixed blade shooter ( MUZZY ) and I set up allot of bows every year for local hunters and it is always the same story, "broadhead flight" and usually it is tuning issues with their bow.Once the bow is ready i work on the arrow, helical fletching , spine and always paper tune, fletched and bare shaft. I can personally say I have never had a Muzzy out of the pack not group. A broadhead may not always shoot with a field point but they will group. i set up for broadheads only and make sure they group , if they don't shoot down the shaft of my field point i don't really care, i have NEVER shot a deer with a field point and then followed up with my broadhead.
I just set up a Bowtech Allegiance for a guy and it would not shoot with his field point but he had 2-3" groups at 50 yards. He could care less about a field point with a group like that.
Fixed VS. Mechanical - Feather VS. Vanes- It's all preferance. Thats why they make chocolate and vanilla icecream, everybody don't like chocolate.


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## Ol' Red (Oct 30, 2007)

For some reason I have never been able to get Muzzys to fly right.  I have shot Thunderheads, Slicktricks, Montecs(don't like them either), and a few others and for some reason, couldn't get muzzys th fly consistent.  I tried the 3 blade, 4 blade(90 gr), and MX-4s.  I'm not knocking them, obviously they are a great head or all these folks wouldn't shoot them.  They just don't work for me.

Red


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## DaddyPaul (Oct 30, 2007)

DaddyPaul said:


> P.S.  Please PM me for an address for all of the leftover Muzzys.  I likes 'em!



Hey Red did you see this?


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## Ol' Red (Oct 30, 2007)

Just now...I think I have 1 three blade left.  I already gave the others away.  Sorry.

Red


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## DaddyPaul (Oct 30, 2007)

Ol' Red said:


> Just now...I think I have 1 three blade left.  I already gave the others away.  Sorry.
> 
> Red



I was just cutting the fool with you I have PLENTY!


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## notnksnemor (Oct 31, 2007)

Bnew,
It's really a matter of personal choice. Some people get more into the mechanics of a bow than others do.
There are even more factors involved than mentioned here.
With newer Mathews bows ( especially the Switchback ) you can get into idler lean and other issues.
So far, I haven't seen a bow tuned at a Pro Shop that I couldn't improve on. It's time consuming and not profitable for a Pro Shop to do.
I see you're in Dublin, if you get around Macon sometime after the season ( I'll be hunting most weekends ) I'd be glad to look at it for you.

Here's something I posted on Archerytalk over 2 years ago about this.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=231723&highlight=paper+tuning+Phoooey+!!!



Good Luck


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## Eyeluv2hunt (Oct 31, 2007)

Full Pull said:


> I use the 3 blade muzzy's 100 and the Mx3's  in 100gran and just a little site ajust from using field points and good to go. I realy like shooting them.
> I also shoot a Hoyt and fly Easton 400 mossyoak carbons.



This year I switched from Muzzy 4-blade 125's to the MX-3 100 grain and they shoot almost exactly like field points. Couldnt be happier with them 

30 yard group after the switch.


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