# Patriotism vs Christs' Kingdom



## Old Crusty (Jan 16, 2015)

Something troubles me as I observe churches and Christians today. It seems that many churches and Christians are at the forefront of promoting patriotism and war. Especially 2000-'08. I don't understand how this can be. We are against abortion, but in favor of killing children and adults? An honest study of Jesus' life and ministry leads me too a different conclusion 

Matthew 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 

John 18:36

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

What are your thoughts? I think in hindsight Christians in general were enamored with a "Christian" president (Bush) and compromised Biblical principles to support him. As a result 100,000's of innocents have been slaughtered.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 16, 2015)

I don't have any comments right now but have you noticed the world view of Christians on the Political forum is different from the world view of Christians on this forum?
Especially how  Christianity pertains to meekness, being humble, forgiveness, pride,
God's grace, turning the other cheek, and giving one who wants your shirt, your coat.
People often say Jimmy Carter is a great Christian but too meek to have made a good president.


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## centerpin fan (Jan 16, 2015)

Old Crusty said:


> It seems that many churches and Christians are at the forefront of promoting patriotism and war.



There's nothing wrong with patriotism, and I'm not aware of any churches or Christians who promote war.


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## centerpin fan (Jan 16, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> ... have you noticed the world view of Christians on the Political forum is different from the world view of Christians on this forum?



I have not.


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## Israel (Jan 17, 2015)

Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.
But it's true, a man cannot have dual citizenship.


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## gemcgrew (Jan 17, 2015)

Israel said:


> Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.
> But it's true, a man cannot have dual citizenship.


A Christian is first a citizen of heaven. Everything else is dung.


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## welderguy (Jan 17, 2015)

War is biblical.The entire old testament is filled with wars and battles.Joshua 5 shows Jesus as He came to Joshua as the "captain of the host", about to do battle against Jericho. Theres numerous other examples where God actually fought the battles for the children of Israel.One great one that comes to mind is in Kings when Jehoshaphat defeated the enemy without even lifting a sword.Many others also.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 17, 2015)

Old Crusty said:


> Something troubles me as I observe churches and Christians today. It seems that many churches and Christians are at the forefront of promoting patriotism and war. Especially 2000-'08. I don't understand how this can be. We are against abortion, but in favor of killing children and adults? An honest study of Jesus' life and ministry leads me too a different conclusion
> 
> Matthew 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
> 
> ...




 I feel that I could hit Jesus squarely in the solar plexus so that it would knock him down to the ground and I would  still be forgiven by Christians, I would still be worth something as a man, but if I said one word critical of the Bush administrations conduct regards their war with Iraq I would be singled out by some political tecknologists ( who make themselves the guardians of the morals of their political affiliations and leaders ), as subhuman.

You think I spin and exagerate? Nope.

I will say this from my observation regards my life and  its responsibilities and the lives of others and their responsibilities by an account I recall when President Bush 2 was asked by an interviewer, " How do you square being a Christian and being President? Which is first?" His answer was if I recall correctly, " My responsibility as President is to the american people. That's my job."

 It has been my observation that my own jobs, my own responsibilities have oftentimes oriented my outlooks and influenced behaviors and actions--outlooks, behaviors and actions that changed when I no longer had them. 

Patriotism is a good thing but ideologies right and left can make a fool of it, like they can make fools of community leaders, ministers and christian congregations---despite what my dear brother centerpin fan says.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 17, 2015)

welderguy said:


> War is biblical.The entire old testament is filled with wars and battles.Joshua 5 shows Jesus as He came to Joshua as the "captain of the host", about to do battle against Jericho. Theres numerous other examples where God actually fought the battles for the children of Israel.One great one that comes to mind is in Kings when Jehoshaphat defeated the enemy without even lifting a sword.Many others also.



So is slavery and bondage...

Abraham went to war to save Lot his freedom, his life and his property and to return the kingdom of Sodom to the king of Sodom for no material gain to himself. His motive was just and his action was righteous. His actions were not based on a doctrine of  designed and calculated preemptive strikes. That was not Abraham's outlook as trusting in God.

Now God ordered Moses to preemptive strikes. But God alone is the judge of peoples in this way. That judgement does not belong to human leaders.


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## centerpin fan (Jan 17, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> ... if I said one word critical of the Bush administrations conduct regards their war with Iraq I would be singled out by some political tecknologists ( who make themselves the guardians of the morals of their political affiliations and leaders ), as subhuman.



There's nothing wrong with being critical of a war or a president's conduct of it.  Vietnam and LBJ were certainly criticized.  

Go down to the Political Forum and express your admiration for Abraham Lincoln.  See what kind of response you get.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 17, 2015)

centerpin fan said:


> There's nothing wrong with being critical of a war or a president's conduct of it.  Vietnam and LBJ were certainly criticized.
> 
> Go down to the Political Forum and express your admiration for Abraham Lincoln.  See what kind of response you get.



That is funny right there.... LOL... don't care who you are.


  I have been there, I have shared my admirations. I never really fit other than as a token. 

This is the reaction I get on the political forum bless their hearts.


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## hummerpoo (Jan 17, 2015)

Old Crusty said:


> Something troubles me as I observe churches and Christians today. It seems that many churches and Christians are at the forefront of promoting patriotism and war.



Me too.



Israel said:


> Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.
> But it's true, a man cannot have dual citizenship.







gemcgrew said:


> A Christian is first a citizen of heaven. Everything else is dung.





You would have to work pretty hard to get around it.
Rm. 13:1 ff and 1 Pet 2:13 ff.  add up to graceful tolerance and recognition of Providence ... nothing more.
_________________________
Probably should include Mat. 22:21
There's more, but I'm lazy.


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## hobbs27 (Jan 17, 2015)

Old Crusty said:


> Something troubles me as I observe churches and Christians today. It seems that many churches and Christians are at the forefront of promoting patriotism and war. Especially 2000-'08. I don't understand how this can be. We are against abortion, but in favor of killing children and adults? An honest study of Jesus' life and ministry leads me too a different conclusion
> ..



Well I guess you are looking for a warhawk? Im not, but I do support killing our enemies, those that have attacked us, continue to attack us, and have declared war against us. 
 Im reminded by this thread of the struggles of sgt York. What an awesome movie, some may need to revisit.


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## hummerpoo (Jan 17, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Well I guess you are looking for a warhawk? Im not, but I do support killing our enemies, those that have attacked us, continue to attack us, and have declared war against us.
> Im reminded by this thread of the struggles of sgt York. What an awesome movie, some may need to revisit.



I'm familiar with the movie, but I don't understand your point, could you help me?


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## Old Crusty (Jan 17, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Well I guess you are looking for a warhawk? Im not, but I do support killing our enemies, those that have attacked us, continue to attack us, and have declared war against us.
> Im reminded by this thread of the struggles of sgt York. What an awesome movie, some may need to revisit.




Jesus words were: "It hath been said....... (OT), but I say unto you.......(NT). Nowhere in the New Testament do I see any support for the idea that killing for country is ok. So we send missionaries to them or kill them, both ok?


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## hobbs27 (Jan 17, 2015)

Hummerpoo: The movie shows a faithful man struggling over this very topic

Old Crusty:  Ill leave a clip of the movie below. I agree with sgt yorks final decision.


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## hummerpoo (Jan 17, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Hummerpoo: The movie shows a faithful man struggling over this very topic
> 
> Old Crusty:  Ill leave a clip of the movie below. I agree with sgt yorks final decision.



I just went in to play my DVD, which I had loaned out.  I’m afraid it’s ruined.
I’ll attempt to paraphrase the follow up to the scene above, which takes place after the killing is over.

Colonel: You as much as told me in my office that you were willing to serve, but you weren’t willing to fight.
York: Well sir, the way I seen it, them machine guns was killin’ hundreds, maybe thousands.  There weren’t nothing to do but stop them machine guns.
Colonel: You mean you did it all to save lives.
York: Yes sir, that’s about the size of it.
Colonel: Well York, what you have just told me is the most amazing thing of all.

“I’ll be a trustin’ in somethin’ a heap bigger than I be.”
He did, and God put Sgt. York in a place where he could save “hundreds, maybe thousands” of lives.

York, didn't decide to fight, he was given the opportunity to save.

If someone could find and post that scene, I’d appreciate it.


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## centerpin fan (Jan 17, 2015)

Old Crusty said:


> Nowhere in the New Testament do I see any support for the idea that killing for country is ok.



... which is why some individuals choose to be conscientious objectors and some groups (like the Quakers) choose pacifism.  Others feel differently.  For example, Ulrich Zwingli (one of the Reformers) died in battle.




Old Crusty said:


> So we send missionaries to them or kill them, both ok?



See above.


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## hobbs27 (Jan 17, 2015)

hummerpoo said:


> I just went in to play my DVD, which I had loaned out.  I’m afraid it’s ruined.
> I’ll attempt to paraphrase the follow up to the scene above, which takes place after the killing is over.
> 
> Colonel: You as much as told me in my office that you were willing to serve, but you weren’t willing to fight.
> ...


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## hummerpoo (Jan 17, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


>



Thanks, much appreciated brother.


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## Old Crusty (Jan 17, 2015)

Old Crusty:  Ill leave a clip of the movie below. I agree with sgt yorks final decision.

[/QUOTE]

Thanks. I can appreciate that we may never know how we will respond until we are actually in the situation. But....     

Maybe I see things too black and white, but I believe in absolute truths. Truths that do not change depending on the situation. If we do not hold to absolutes, we open the Truths of Gods Word to every conceivable interpretation and practice. I don't see God asking us to break one of His laws (kill one man), in order to obey another of His laws(save 100 men). That makes sense by human rational, but God asks us to obey Him even if it doesn't make sense from our perspective. I believe God is in control of life and death(Job 14:5), and kings and kingdoms are as nothing to Him(Isa 40). And I believe machine guns he can quiet as well if he so chooses. War and killing are a result of sin. Christ's sacrifice took away the eternal penalty, but not the earthly consequences of that sin. So death is going to happen to all of us somehow someday.


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## Old Crusty (Jan 17, 2015)

P.S... Not to turn this political, but Sergeant York was filmed in the run up to WWII and seen by many as a propaganda film to soften the "Christian conscience" of the American people.


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## JB0704 (Jan 17, 2015)

centerpin fan said:


> I have not.



C'mon CP, "kill 'em all" is the general theme down there.  It's an OT style Christianity referenced by the OP.


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## welderguy (Jan 17, 2015)

I believe we should "as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men".And I also believe it behooves us as a nation to avoid war as much as possible.But the reality is that other nations hate America and would love to wipe us off the map.We simply must be prepared to fight if there is a threat to our citizens.Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like some of you would favor doing away with the military and passively trying to hold hands with evil nations and their evil agendas.If we do that, we will soon cease to exist as a nation.


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## centerpin fan (Jan 17, 2015)

Old Crusty said:


> P.S... Not to turn this political,  ...



You're too late.




Old Crusty said:


> ... Sergeant York was filmed in the run up to WWII and seen by many as a propaganda film to soften the "Christian conscience" of the American people.



What was the propaganda for:

the Revolutionary War?

the War of 1812?

the Mexican-American war?

the Civil War?

World War I?


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## centerpin fan (Jan 17, 2015)

JB0704 said:


> C'mon CP, "kill 'em all" is the general theme down there.  It's an OT style Christianity referenced by the OP.



Yes, I'm familiar with "kill 'em all", but I've never heard anybody say that was the Christian thing to do.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 17, 2015)

centerpin fan said:


> Yes, I'm familiar with "kill 'em all", but I've never heard anybody say that was the Christian thing to do.



Then you haven't spent much time in the Political forum. Most profess a belief in the God of Abraham but their views on many topics are based on the Old Testament ways instead of the New Testament ways taught by Jesus to include meekness, love, forgiveness, and God's grace.
Turn the other cheek, help the sick, feed the poor, forgive trespassers, be less prideful and boastful, and more humble.
Don't try to gain too much here on the earth as our reward will be in Heaven. Just some basic Christian ideals as taught by Jesus and Paul.


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## hobbs27 (Jan 18, 2015)

I wonder, those against fighting for country, would you fight for family? In other words, would you defend your home with lethal force if need be, and isn't this similar to defending country?


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## gordon 2 (Jan 18, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> I wonder, those against fighting for country, would you fight for family? In other words, would you defend your home with lethal force if need be, and isn't this similar to defending country?



I don't suspect this is the kind of " fighting" the original post is concerned about.  Question like his often get side stepped and rabbit holed. I think your point here is a rabbit hole compared to the original question. And I might be wrong.

However, what I think the original question refers to regards patriotism and war is that it is pointed at a society where war and a war posture, is intrinsic to its makeup. The people support war and war posture because it means jobs. Polititions support war because it means jobs and positive results for themselves and their political affiliations. Churches and their devotees, support the war culture because they minister to the people who are of that culture. And finally and simply the individual  supports  or translate the whole thing of the war culture as an argument for self defense, defense of family and property, our politics, our spirituality and " our way of life". The patriotism of this culture is perhaps best observed when the nations citizens who object to this cultural perpective are said and bullied as "unpatriotic and even un-american and to leave by moving to Canada or somewheres else"-- as in " love it or leave it." 

In other words the war culture of war economics, war politics, and war morality (spirituality) are at odds with the fundamental tenants  of a citizenry which claims itself spiritually  Christian from its foundation and onwards.

I think this is what the issue is with the original post and not self defense.  What this prophet said was not heeded. It's that simple. And. If you don't think what this great soldier has to say is valid, ask yourself was there one american, when this President, spoke that thought that the state, their nation, their country, would ever knowingly torture people, and what has changed? And would you in the recognition of a soldier in a church setting applaud this soldier for their service if his/her service was the state sanctioned and premeditated torture of his enemy? Christ? Here:




I will not say more in this vein because it is my experience that "things" can flare up real fast-- and i'm not into burning bridges other than in self defence. Peace.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 18, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> I don't suspect this is the kind of " fighting" the original post is concerned about.  Question like his often get side stepped and rabbit holed. I think your point here is a rabbit hole compared to the original question. And I might be wrong.
> 
> However, what I think the original question refers to regards patriotism and war is that it is pointed at a society where war and a war posture, is intrinsic to its makeup. The people support war and war posture because it means jobs. Polititions support war because it means jobs and positive results for themselves and their political affiliations. Churches and their devotees, support the war culture because they minister to the people who are of that culture. And finally and simply the individual  supports  or translate the whole thing of the war culture as an argument for self defense, defense of family and property, our politics, our spirituality and " our way of life".
> 
> ...



Good post and I agree. Most people would put their life on the line for total strangers to include killing the one harming them.We will help total strangers in need and so on and so on. This is not having a war/killing mindset.

The difference in a nation having a War mindset is different. Mainly because of the reasons we are fighting. The reasons wars have been fought over the years by many nations and tribes.
It's usually over pride, worldly goods, revenge, property, women, food, natural resources, gold/money, hatred, and prejudices of ones color or religion.
The world hasn't improved on the basic Christian concepts of love, helping, and forgiveness as far as nations go. Perhaps because we haven't made many improvements as far as individuals go in love, helping, and forgiveness.

We are as nations getting better but we still have a long way to go. Unless God is in total control and there will be wars and rumors of wars and he will have the final battle. Everything might be going exactly as he has planned.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 18, 2015)

This is an extreme example, but an example, of how ideology, even wrapping itself in christian notions, can drive patriotism to have devastating effect on the church. 



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessing_Church


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## hobbs27 (Jan 18, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> I don't suspect this is the kind of " fighting" the original post is concerned about.  Question like his often get side stepped and rabbit holed. I think your point here is a rabbit hole compared to the original question. And I might be wrong.
> 
> However, what I think the original question refers to regards patriotism and war is that it is pointed at a society where war and a war posture, is intrinsic to its makeup. The people support war and war posture because it means jobs. Polititions support war because it means jobs and positive results for themselves and their political affiliations. Churches and their devotees, support the war culture because they minister to the people who are of that culture. And finally and simply the individual  supports  or translate the whole thing of the war culture as an argument for self defense, defense of family and property, our politics, our spirituality and " our way of life". The patriotism of this culture is perhaps best observed when the nations citizens who object to this cultural perpective are said and bullied as "unpatriotic and even un-american and to leave by moving to Canada or somewheres else"-- as in " love it or leave it."
> 
> ...



I respect your opinion. I do not support wars for jobs! 
 I support our troops and pray Gods will is that the politicians would get out of their way and allow them to do what they must, so they can come home soon and put the misery of war behind them.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 18, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> I respect your opinion. I do not support wars for jobs!
> I support our troops and pray Gods will is that the politicians would get out of their way and allow them to do what they must, so they can come home soon and put the misery of war behind them.



Maybe your right.


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## centerpin fan (Jan 18, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> This is an extreme example, but an example, of how ideology, even wrapping itself in christian notions, can drive patriotism to have devastating effect on the church.
> 
> 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessing_Church




I'm not seeing the problem.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 18, 2015)

centerpin fan said:


> I'm not seeing the problem.



Maybe after all there is none.


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## centerpin fan (Jan 18, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Then you haven't spent much time in the Political forum. Most profess a belief in the God of Abraham but their views on many topics are based on the Old Testament ways instead of the New Testament ways taught by Jesus to include meekness, love, forgiveness, and God's grace.



I've spent more time in the PF than a healthy person should, and I've never seen anybody saying we need to "kill for Jesus".  You'll have to link to a thread to show me what you're talking about.


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## centerpin fan (Jan 18, 2015)

JB0704 said:


> C'mon CP, "kill 'em all" is the general theme down there.




I dunno about that, but it's definitely the general theme here:


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## hobbs27 (Jan 18, 2015)

centerpin fan said:


> I dunno about that, but it's definitely the general theme here:




 Wonder if Dave Mustaine ever looks back and see's his mistake acting a fool and getting kicked out?


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## centerpin fan (Jan 18, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Wonder if Dave Mustaine ever looks back and see's his mistake acting a fool and getting kicked out?



He definitely does.  He pretty much said that in _Some Kind of Monster_.


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## RNC (Jan 18, 2015)

If not for a good part of Christians troops fighting in our  wars ,where would we be ?

&

George Bush is not a Christian. He is a universalist . 

Go to google and type in "George Bush is a universalist" and click the YouTube video to  hear it from his own mouth .


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 18, 2015)

centerpin fan said:


> I've spent more time in the PF than a healthy person should, and I've never seen anybody saying we need to "kill for Jesus".  You'll have to link to a thread to show me what you're talking about.



I couldn't find one, you win.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 19, 2015)

Old Crusty said:


> Jesus words were: "It hath been said....... (OT), but I say unto you.......(NT). Nowhere in the New Testament do I see any support for the idea that killing for country is ok. So we send missionaries to them or kill them, both ok?



It is what it is.

Old Crusty, there is a saying in South Africa. It goes sometin like this. 

" When the white men came to our land they handed us the bible and we were told to lower our heads to it. And when we raised our heads from it, we had their bible and --- they had our lands."


It is human nature to trade.

It is what it is.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 19, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> It is what it is.
> 
> Old Crusty, there is a saying in South Africa. It goes sometin like this.
> 
> ...



Look on the bright side. They got everlasting life and the white man got diamonds.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 19, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Look on the bright side. They got everlasting life and the white man got diamonds.




Good one Art.  That just about sumps it up.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 19, 2015)

Old Crusty said:


> Something troubles me as I observe churches and Christians today. It seems that many churches and Christians are at the forefront of promoting patriotism and war. Especially 2000-'08. I don't understand how this can be. We are against abortion, but in favor of killing children and adults? An honest study of Jesus' life and ministry leads me too a different conclusion
> 
> Matthew 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
> 
> ...



I'm retired military(a vet), but I'm embarrassed every time I hear a Christian stand in church to pray and say:  "Thank you Lord for those of our nation who are willing to go to war and risk their lives so that we can worship you today in freedom."

Ashamed, embarrassed.

You fools! Must someone die so that you can safely live as a Christian?  

War?  I leave that up to God and the nations leaders.
I never have, and never will vote for any person who would allow a 6 month fetus to be terminated. Never.

Vote as a citizen of God's kingdom.  Like Israel said:  "you can't have duel citizenship"


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## gordon 2 (Jan 19, 2015)

Ronnie T said:


> I'm retired military(a vet), but I'm embarrassed every time I hear a Christian stand in church to pray and say:  "Thank you Lord for those of our nation who are willing to go to war and risk their lives so that we can worship you today in freedom."
> 
> Ashamed, embarrassed.
> 
> ...



I am fortunate to know you. You are one of my blessings. That's all I'll have to say about that. GBU

Finally! I understand why  the people on the political forum say what they do say. It only took a decade. I'm slow I guess.  Thanks Ronnie.

I got this bookmarked lest I forget.


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## swampstalker24 (Jan 19, 2015)

Do any of you believe that our nation's military mission is of both "God and country", the subject of this relevant thread....

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=831319&highlight=military


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 19, 2015)

swampstalker24 said:


> Do any of you believe that our nation's military mission is of both "God and country", the subject of this relevant thread....
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=831319&highlight=military



I would think that it could be but not always. Governments and their military, like to convince the masses that they are fighting for God and the enemy is of Satan. It makes it easier to kill. Maybe lower your enemy to a less than human being.

I don't believe it was always like that. Back during the Revolutionary War and the Civil War there was honor between the opposing sides. I wonder if way back then they thought they were fighting for God.

Killing for Jesus if you will.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 19, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> I am fortunate to know you. You are one of my blessings. That's all I'll have to say about that. GBU
> 
> Finally! I understand why  the people on the political forum say what they do say. It only took a decade. I'm slow I guess.  Thanks Ronnie.
> 
> I got this bookmarked lest I forget.



And Gordon, I suspect that you are a blessing to every person who knows you.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 19, 2015)

Doesn't the Bible make it clear that God has often used one nation's military against another as a way of gaining His will.

But I'm no authority on the specifics of God's prodding today.
.


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## barryl (Jan 20, 2015)

EPH. 6:10-18 KJV AV Didn't read all posts, but, Christian armament for the good fight of faith? Sounds like Paul was speaking of Battle(War) to me. Here's another word to study up on, Kingdom Builders.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 20, 2015)

barryl said:


> EPH. 6:10-18 KJV AV Didn't read all posts, but, Christian armament for the good fight of faith? Sounds like Paul was speaking of Battle(War) to me. Here's another word to study up on, Kingdom Builders.



In those verses it says "we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies."

I think it is saying the full armor of God is needed for spiritual warfare.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 20, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> In those verses it says "we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies."
> 
> I think it is saying the full armor of God is needed for spiritual warfare.


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## barryl (Jan 20, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> In those verses it says "we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies."
> 
> I think it is saying the full armor of God is needed for spiritual warfare.


I think your thinking is right. 1 Peter 5:8 KJV AV


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## formula1 (Jan 20, 2015)

*Re:*

Thanks to the OP who I believe made an excellent observation about some Christians and their implied support of patriotism and war.  My allegiance to my country is strong, yes, but must still remain in submission to my God and Savior Christ!

I once thought (even as a Christian) that every Muslim country should be bombed and obliterated.  Then I was enlightened that every man and nations serves God's purpose and it's not up to me, but God to judge those people and nations. And I repented in my heart!!!

Evil men and nations from many of our own viewpoints including mine, have to be stopped. Shall I not defend the lives of my family for example?  Shall I not be torn at the heart for the unborn who are murdered daily? Shall I not feel the pain of teenage Christians murdered by ISIS thugs?  Shall I not demand that these things be addressed by my vote, to choose authorities that support my view? I do and I shall!  I shall choose to care about others with my vote.  That to me is a part of it!

Yet God is truly the authority and as such, He places those in authority to make those types of decisions as well as other decisions.  I am satisfied with that, even with those He puts in authority that we don't like or don't espouse to our views.  Perhaps that very thing is to get our attention, perhaps it's to reverse our course, or perhaps it is for us to see the futilely of human decisions without the intervention and power of God, that we may turn to Him and see Him and live for Him through Christ our Lord!

Should God get our attention or at least some of it, perhaps we might refocus or efforts on doing His will, on spreading the Good News, on loving and changing evil at the place where it exists, in the heart of man, one heart and one transformation at a time.  Perhaps we might focus more on life eternal than the life we see! Perhaps, our decisions will become based on their eternal impact! 

The real war doesn't exist between armies or nations or religions or poverty, but rather it is an unending battle for souls for the Kingdom! And whether we like it or not we all are right in the middle of it!  So choose whom you will serve and what role you will play in the eternal plans of your Father who loves you, and serve Him to the full! And be patriots of His Kingdom first and everything else will fall into its place!


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## huntmore (Jan 20, 2015)

Old Crusty said:


> Something troubles me as I observe churches and Christians today. It seems that many churches and Christians are at the forefront of promoting patriotism and war. Especially 2000-'08. I don't understand how this can be. We are against abortion, but in favor of killing children and adults? An honest study of Jesus' life and ministry leads me too a different conclusion
> 
> Matthew 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
> 
> ...



So if someone comes into your house and starts beating your wife or child to death you think God wants you to let them?
I think getting slapped in the face is one thing and isis and the like killing bunches are two different things.


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## Old Crusty (Jan 20, 2015)

huntmore said:


> So if someone comes into your house and starts beating your wife or child to death you think God wants you to let them?
> I think getting slapped in the face is one thing and isis and the like killing bunches are two different things.



It really doesn't matter what I think. It's what the Bible says that is important. A whole lot of what Jesus said doesn't make sense to our carnal way of thinking.


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## welderguy (Jan 20, 2015)

huntmore said:


> So if someone comes into your house and starts beating your wife or child to death you think God wants you to let them?
> I think getting slapped in the face is one thing and isis and the like killing bunches are two different things.



I think this question needs to be addressed.The very fact that Jesus laid down His life for His bride should be our example as men to defend our wife and children even to the death if need be.


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## hobbs27 (Jan 20, 2015)

welderguy said:


> I think this question needs to be addressed.The very fact that Jesus laid down His life for His bride should be our example as men to defend our wife and children even to the death if need be.



Not to mention Jesus' physical rebuke to the money changers in the temple...His house!


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## gemcgrew (Jan 20, 2015)

Israel said:


> None of it does.


Amen


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## hummerpoo (Jan 20, 2015)

Israel said:


> None of it does.



Somehow, this idea makes me want to attempt to define "faith".


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## gemcgrew (Jan 20, 2015)

hummerpoo said:


> Somehow, this idea makes me want to attempt to define "faith".


Go!


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## Old Crusty (Jan 20, 2015)

welderguy said:


> I think this question needs to be addressed.The very fact that Jesus laid down His life for His bride should be our example as men to defend our wife and children even to the death if need be.



I would say just the opposite. He refused to defend self even though he was perfectly innocent. He rebuked Peter for using the sword on the high priest.


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## hummerpoo (Jan 20, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> Go!




"want to attempt" does not equal "competent".

Praise be to the One who is competent.
Heb. 11:
1 Now faith is the assurance (substance) of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the men of old gained approval.

3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.


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## Old Crusty (Jan 20, 2015)

welderguy said:


> I think this question needs to be addressed.The very fact that Jesus laid down His life for His bride should be our example as men to defend our wife and children even to the death if need be.



He died to save our spiritual lives, not our physical.


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## welderguy (Jan 20, 2015)

huntmore said:


> So if someone comes into your house and starts beating your wife or child to death you think God wants you to let them?
> I think getting slapped in the face is one thing and isis and the like killing bunches are two different things.



This is the question I was referring to that needs to be answered by you OldCrusty.What would you do if someone comes into your house and starts beating your wife or child to death? It seems as if you are either trying to evade the question or you're trying to spiritualize it away.


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## Old Crusty (Jan 20, 2015)

Sorry, not trying to evade or spiritualize but to Biblicize and get input from others. Your question is a hypothetical so I don't know what I would do, but I think I know what I should do.

All of Jesus's disciples died for their faith, I think after Pentecost they understood His message. Just as Satan had to ask permission of God before attacking Job, I think that as His children our life and death are under His control.


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## welderguy (Jan 20, 2015)

Although Jesus rebuked Peter for using his sword on the servant of the high priest,(Luk.22:50), He told the disciples prior to that in vs 36 to sell their coat and buy a sword.I think this must mean that there is a proper place for the sword.In Peters case, that was not the place because He had already told them that He must be given into the hands of men to be crucified.We need wisdom and discernment from God as to when to draw our sword and when not to.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 21, 2015)

If Jesus rebuked Peter for using his sword so that his mission could be completed, could Peter have foiled the mission of Jesus by using his sword?
Can we foil God's plan by using or not our sword?


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## welderguy (Jan 21, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> If Jesus rebuked Peter for using his sword so that his mission could be completed, could Peter have foiled the mission of Jesus by using his sword?
> Can we foil God's plan by using or not our sword?



Most definitely not.Jesus was in full control.He said "I am" and they all fell backward.He rebuked Peter because of the motive of his heart.They did not take Him, He gave Himself into their hands.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 21, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Most definitely not.Jesus was in full control.He said "I am" and they all fell backward.He rebuked Peter because of the motive of his heart.They did not take Him, He gave Himself into their hands.



In the question presented to Old Crusty, is God in control?


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## welderguy (Jan 21, 2015)

Most definitely yes."He doeth His will in the armies of heaven and the inhabitants of the earth and none can stay His hand or say what doest thou".But we are not puppets on strings either.He has a master plan that will be carried out regardless of what we do.He conforms our will to His will.Its amazing how He does it! He's awesome!!!


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 21, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Most definitely yes."He doeth His will in the armies of heaven and the inhabitants of the earth and none can stay His hand or say what doest thou".But we are not puppets on strings either.He has a master plan that will be carried out regardless of what we do.He conforms our will to His will.Its amazing how He does it! He's awesome!!!



Peter couldn't change it and I'm pretty sure Old Crusty can't either.
I think his answer to the question given would be however God's plan chooses him to react. Unless Crusty reacts and God counters.

Myself, I need to go buy a sword. S&W maybe with some Black Talons. I wish I could kill all of my demons so easily.
I'd hate for Satan to take my family's lives before the day God has allotted to take them.


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## welderguy (Jan 21, 2015)

I think we all can agree that there is a spiritual warfare going on that we cannot see with our natural eyes.We have spiritual armour and spiritual weapons given to us that we use against satan and his demons.But, there is also a warfare out there that is visible to our eyes.I don't believe we are called to be passive in either one.Evil is evil.period.No matter what form it takes.And although I don't believe we should go looking for trouble,if that trouble comes to us and threatens our family,It is our manly duty as overseer of the family to try with God's help to protect them at all cost.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 22, 2015)

welderguy said:


> I think we all can agree that there is a spiritual warfare going on that we cannot see with our natural eyes.We have spiritual armour and spiritual weapons given to us that we use against satan and his demons.But, there is also a warfare out there that is visible to our eyes.I don't believe we are called to be passive in either one.Evil is evil.period.No matter what form it takes.And although I don't believe we should go looking for trouble,if that trouble comes to us and threatens our family,It is our manly duty as overseer of the family to try with God's help to protect them at all cost.



Well said, specifically regarding your acknowledgement of the 2 separate but very real kingdoms with warfare in both.


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## Old Crusty (Jan 22, 2015)

I totally agree on the two kingdom theory. But can we be a part of both? The theme of Matthew 6 is that we should not worry about our lives but trust Him. Just as the flowers of the field and the birds of the air. He then says in verse 24 that we can only serve one. Jesus said to Pilate (John 18:36) that My kingdom is not of this world, if it was we would fight. During Jesus ministry it says over and over again that "He preached to them the Kingdom of God" or a variant of that. Its interesting to note that he wasn't asking people to accept Him as savior and stay in their current kingdom, but He was asking them for a life changing move into His kingdom.

 I'm not trying to tell anybody how to live their life, but it appears to me as I'm studying deeper into the life and example of Jesus, that He was not just asking for a verbal acknowledgement of Him. But a more radical life-changing move into His kingdom.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 22, 2015)

Hobbs, come to the rescue. Tell them how the Kingdom is spiritual.

How does one enter a spiritual kingdom (born again) and live now as a human in this physical Kingdom?


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## hobbs27 (Jan 22, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Hobbs, come to the rescue. Tell them how the Kingdom is spiritual.
> 
> How does one enter a spiritual kingdom (born again) and live now as a human in this physical Kingdom?



 They're right. I live under two kingdoms. The one spoken of in the bible that is God's rule, and the one I reside under as a foreigner, the one currently ruled by Caesar Obama, that is not mentioned as a kingdom in the bible.

 My desire is that I can surrender my fleshly carnal self in Caesar Obama's kingdom, to God's Kingdom, that I seldomly am affected by Caesar.....Oh how I fail! It's been my greatest challenge, to just turn it all over to the Lord, even knowing and been proven so many times that I'm better off in His hands.


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## welderguy (Jan 22, 2015)

How does one enter a spiritual kingdom (born again) and live now as a human in this physical Kingdom?[/QUOTE]

This question has been on my mind pretty heavily for about a year now.The sermon on the mount has helped me the most with this.The deeper you dig into it and dissect each verse,the more clearly the kingdom becomes in your mind.But,just having it in your mind is not enough.We must   try to put into practice the concepts found there.


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## Old Crusty (Jan 23, 2015)

Thanks to all for your input, it has been a good discussion. May we all be Spirit led on this earth below, and meet someday over there.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 23, 2015)

I was in the Navy six years. Patriotism is Great. I felt patriotic being a part of defending our country. I don't think we will ever agree with where war takes us.
I never felt like I was fighting for God. Perhaps one would feel differently fighting a Muslim or other non-Christian country.
Going back to WWll, there was fighting against various Christian and non-Christian countries. In Ireland, there is fighting among Protestants and Catholics. I don't even know what they are fighting for but it's not for God. I think it's like how some feuds get started.

More importantly is to fight the good fight of faith.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 25, 2015)

Old Crusty said:


> Thanks to all for your input, it has been a good discussion. May we all be Spirit led on this earth below, and meet someday over there.




This was one of the best treads for me in a loooog time. Thanks for your question and everyone who participated. It was a good tread because no one flamed up ( the whole thing would of flamed up here ten yrs ago) and the subject of the tread is not an easy one. I remember when no one talked about the kingdom in relationship to anything else, let alone war.  Thanks again.


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