# Casting Out Demons



## ThomasCobb123 (May 27, 2014)

My 16 year old grandson has been attending a small Baptist church which apparently teaches that anyone can cast out demons if he/she is spirit filled.
I do not believe in this. I believe Jesus could do these things and I believe his disciples could do likewise but that's as far as it goes for me.
Nevertheless my grandson is ministering to other teenagers and "casting out demons of Satan". He claims he can see the demons leaving their body.
This is driving my son (his dad) up the wall and I've been assigned the task of finding how to approach the youngster on this without sounding like bashing his Christianity.
I'm wondering if a psychiatrist is the answer.
Please advise me on this.


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## GunnSmokeer (May 27, 2014)

*harmless*

You don't believe in it, at least not in today's world.
He read the same bible you did and he believes in demons and the power of righteous people with strong faith to cast them out.
Even if he's NOT working miracles and signs of God's power, what's the harm in letting him have his beliefs?
It's not like he's in danger of being bitten by a poisonous snake.  He's not proposing to walk on water a mile from shore without a life jacket.
If he and the person allegedly having the demons driven from them both think the experience is a positive one, I don't see a reason to interfere, especially if you can't prove it's not happening the way they say it's happening.


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## formula1 (May 28, 2014)

*Re:*

The truth is this is justified by scripture just like salvation by grace.  I'd say if he's making the effort in praying and fasting, he's prepared for the task and God through the Holy Spirit is with him.

My very traditional Baptist Mom who passed recently once had a son who was very radical and was concerned that these things he spoke of doing were strange and possibly leading him down a wrong path. She prayed and loved her son unconditionally through it all.  And you know what, he turned out just fine!

Just be there for him through it all!  God Bless!


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## Artfuldodger (May 28, 2014)

Biblically speaking who can get possessed by demons? Do Christians get possessed by demons?


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## NCHillbilly (May 28, 2014)

I think I would be encouraging him to go to a different church before they start passing out the rattlesnakes and copperheads and jars of strychnine.


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## hummdaddy (May 28, 2014)

ThomasCobb123 said:


> My 16 year old grandson has been attending a small Baptist church which apparently teaches that anyone can cast out demons if he/she is spirit filled.
> I do not believe in this. I believe Jesus could do these things and I believe his disciples could do likewise but that's as far as it goes for me.
> Nevertheless my grandson is ministering to other teenagers and "casting out demons of Satan". He claims he can see the demons leaving their body.
> This is driving my son (his dad) up the wall and I've been assigned the task of finding how to approach the youngster on this without sounding like bashing his Christianity.
> ...




it's not what you believe,it's what he believes!!! your trying to explain the unknowable...


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## hobbs27 (May 28, 2014)

He most likely needs a psych evaluation. It may be the first sign of an underlying problem.


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## rjcruiser (May 28, 2014)

ThomasCobb123 said:


> My 16 year old grandson has been attending a small Baptist church which apparently teaches that anyone can cast out demons if he/she is spirit filled.
> I do not believe in this. I believe Jesus could do these things and I believe his disciples could do likewise but that's as far as it goes for me.
> Nevertheless my grandson is ministering to other teenagers and "casting out demons of Satan". He claims he can see the demons leaving their body.
> This is driving my son (his dad) up the wall and I've been assigned the task of finding how to approach the youngster on this without sounding like bashing his Christianity.
> ...



I'd encourage him (and you) to do a Bible Study on demons as well as spiritual gifts.  Do spiritual sign gifts still exist?  Does anyone in the Bible actually see the demons leaving?  Is there a Biblical example or precedent in this practice?

Look to the Bible for your answers....consult commentaries, but ask the Holy Spirit to reveal His truth to you and your family.



Artfuldodger said:


> Biblically speaking who can get possessed by demons? Do Christians get possessed by demons?



Unbelievers can be possessed by demons....for if we are Christians, we have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of us....and how could a demon dwell inside of us along with the Holy Spirit?

II Cor 5:17

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.


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## hummdaddy (May 28, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> He most likely needs a psych evaluation. It may be the first sign of an underlying problem.



then everyone religious does!!!


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## Artfuldodger (May 28, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> I'd encourage him (and you) to do a Bible Study on demons as well as spiritual gifts.  Do spiritual sign gifts still exist?  Does anyone in the Bible actually see the demons leaving?  Is there a Biblical example or precedent in this practice?
> 
> Look to the Bible for your answers....consult commentaries, but ask the Holy Spirit to reveal His truth to you and your family.
> 
> ...



Could a believer have demons but not owned by one? Is our definition of demons not the same as the Biblical meaning? Wouldn't it be better to just lead the possessed person to Jesus and then the demon would have to leave otherwise the demon might just return to the unbeliever?


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## hobbs27 (May 28, 2014)

hummdaddy said:


> then everyone religious does!!!



My concern is that a young man says he is casting demons from people and can see the demons. This is NOT biblical for our time.  He is either being manipulated by a group of people or is showing some signs of psychiatric problem.


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## Ronnie T (May 28, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Could a believer have demons but not owned by one? Is our definition of demons not the same as the Biblical meaning? Wouldn't it be better to just lead the possessed person to Jesus and then the demon would have to leave otherwise the demon might just return to the unbeliever?



Resist the devil and he will flee from you!


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## gordon 2 (May 28, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> My concern is that a young man says he is casting demons from people and can see the demons. This is NOT biblical for our time.  He is either being manipulated by a group of people or is showing some signs of psychiatric problem.




How is this not biblical for our time? Serious question...this is the first I hear of this? Do you mind explaining?


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## hobbs27 (May 28, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> How is this not biblical for our time? Serious question...this is the first I hear of this? Do you mind explaining?



Maybe it will be easier for you to show me in the bible where regular 16 year old kids will be casting demons from people in the kingdom of God. In the meantime enjoy this show.


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## hummdaddy (May 28, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Maybe it will be easier for you to show me in the bible where regular 16 year old kids will be casting demons from people in the kingdom of God. In the meantime enjoy this show.



how do you know he is "regular"?


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## 1gr8bldr (May 28, 2014)

Sounds like he has a demon who thinks he can cast out other demons. LOL, just kidding. Been thinking about this. Mentioned it to my wife for her thoughts. At this point, I don't think he will listen to anyone. He assumes he knows more, has been elightened, has more faith, etc. Brainwashed, basically. But how do we know this? This is where I see the big issue. Are we the ones "oh yea of little faith". Are we overlooking our mountain moving power? On one hand I commend the young fellow for having faith, on the other hand we have seen the abuse of the socalled gifted. Here is my thoughts abouts demons. I don't ascribe to the idea that demons are all powerful, controling. I see them as disembodied spirits, those angels, the 1/3 who were cast from heaven, stuck on earth awaiting judgement day. They are looking for a place of rest, attaching themselves to whomever/whatever, hitching a ride... LOL, like a tick, buying time until judgement. Yes we see extreme cases of demons causing people not to be able to live in society in the NT, but not cases of outright loss of control. Wonder if addictions are actually a demon who wants to get high in order to forget his coming judgement, who has enticed his host into another bad decission. My use of demon, again, is much different than hollywoods version. We are freaked out by the thought of a demon living in someone... yet don't see the comparrison of the spirit of Christ living in us. The spirit of Christ moves us to do things, the same with a hitchiking spirit, my new word for demons. As far as this young man thinking he can drive them out, I assume he is caught up in "religion". Likely that the uncertainity of what he is claiming as certain, will soon come to light and he will pull away from the very source that recruited him. Be careful, handle gently, when this has passed, a good relationship might remain


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## hobbs27 (May 28, 2014)

hummdaddy said:


> how do you know he is "regular"?



I dont. What I do know is that he is not Jesus and he is not an apostle of God.

 Here's a biblical account of what happened when someone other than an  apostle attempted to cast demons

Acts Chapter 19

13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.

14 And there were seven sons of [one] Sceva, a Jew, [and] chief of the priests, which did so.

15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?

16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.


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## hummdaddy (May 28, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I dont. What I do know is that he is not Jesus and he is not an apostle of God.
> 
> Here's a biblical account of what happened when someone other than an  apostle attempted to cast demons
> 
> ...



you know this as fact about him,me,or anyone else doing God's work....


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## hobbs27 (May 28, 2014)

hummdaddy said:


> you know this as fact about him,me,or anyone else doing God's work....



Yes! And I hope you would also...or would you be one of these hitting the floor?


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## Artfuldodger (May 28, 2014)

What denomination of Baptist teaches casting out demons?


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## rjcruiser (May 28, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> What denomination of Baptist teaches casting out demons?



I know of a local SBC pastor who believes in casting out demons.  

Do I believe people can still be possessed....I think so.  

Ephesians 6:12
English Standard Version (ESV)

12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.


I'm not sure that we as humans have the ability to cast these demons out....I'm a cessationalist...so I believe the sign gifts have ceased.  That being said, I know the Holy Spirit can do as He pleases and I have no doubt He could remove any spirit of darkness from a person.


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## Artfuldodger (May 28, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> I know of a local SBC pastor who believes in casting out demons.
> 
> Do I believe people can still be possessed....I think so.
> 
> ...



I'm leaning towards the idea of "cessationism" myself. I also view demons as 1gr8bldr does. I don't believe a Christian can be possessed or owned by demons but can be controlled or influenced. If we are divided into three parts of spirit/body/soul perhaps a demon could enter our soul/body and not our spirit. I have no idea. I am also a convert of OSAS so I don't really see what a demon could do to a Christian. 
I do understand that Satan could use demons to trip up Christians but what good would it do? I understand he might not possess Atheist with demons as what would his point be? He already has them in his Army. Now if he already has the Atheists and he can't possess Christians, whose left for the demons to possess?

When I do something good or bad, I have difficulty deciding who to blame or praise, God, me, or the Devil!


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## BT Charlie (May 28, 2014)

Doubted and defamed here, this young brother sounds like a courageous man I'd like to meet.

I don't subscribe to cessation of gifts in 70 ad.   This young man could see what he says he sees through gifts of the Spirit.  I'd be mindful of the scripture that says woe to anyone who leads one of these little ones astray.  Pray on it with a servant's heart and conquer any fear or improper motive.  Ask that God's will be done here on earth through this young man.

As a point of reference, both the Roman Catholic Church and Martin Luther prescribed means of exorcising demons from believers.  The Lutheran Church in the US adhered to such.


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## NE GA Pappy (May 28, 2014)

I don't understand people who are cessationist.  I keep looking for anything in scripture that would indicate that the gifts of the spirit were not for us today, and I just don't see it.  If you do any study of the subject, you will find that in almost every generation from the 1st century to now, the have been outpourings of gifts.  

If anybody can point me to a verse that says God gave these gifts to only a couple of generations, please post it up.  

I read where it says God in not a respecter of persons, and if we ask, He will freely give.


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## Artfuldodger (May 28, 2014)

BT Charlie said:


> Doubted and defamed here, this young brother sounds like a courageous man I'd like to meet.
> 
> I don't subscribe to cessation of gifts in 70 ad.   This young man could see what he says he sees through gifts of the Spirit.  I'd be mindful of the scripture that says woe to anyone who leads one of these little ones astray.  Pray on it with a servant's heart and conquer any fear or improper motive.  Ask that God's will be done here on earth through this young man.
> 
> As a point of reference, both the Roman Catholic Church and Martin Luther prescribed means of exorcising demons from believers.  The Lutheran Church in the US adhered to such.



What harm could a demon do to a Christian that has Liberty in Christ? Blessed Assurance Jesus is mine!


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## Artfuldodger (May 28, 2014)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I don't understand people who are cessationist.  I keep looking for anything in scripture that would indicate that the gifts of the spirit were not for us today, and I just don't see it.  If you do any study of the subject, you will find that in almost every generation from the 1st century to now, the have been outpourings of gifts.
> 
> If anybody can point me to a verse that says God gave these gifts to only a couple of generations, please post it up.
> 
> I read where it says God in not a respecter of persons, and if we ask, He will freely give.



Mark 16:18
they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

Do  you pick and choose the gifts that are still in existence? I do understand that not every single person  is given every gift. Some have this or that ability. Have you ever known a brother with the ability to drink poison? I wonder if one could have the gift to drink only a certain poison or is it all poisons?


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## Artfuldodger (May 28, 2014)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I don't understand people who are cessationist.  I keep looking for anything in scripture that would indicate that the gifts of the spirit were not for us today, and I just don't see it.  If you do any study of the subject, you will find that in almost every generation from the 1st century to now, the have been outpourings of gifts.
> 
> If anybody can point me to a verse that says God gave these gifts to only a couple of generations, please post it up.
> 
> I read where it says God in not a respecter of persons, and if we ask, He will freely give.



1 Corinthians 13:8-12

    Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

2 Corinthians 12:12

    The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with utmost patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works.

Hebrews 1:1-2

    Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

Hebrews 2:3-4

    How shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard, while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.


I would say all gifts have ceased or none of them have.


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## Dr. Strangelove (May 28, 2014)

So, this is unbelievable and all the rest is accepted truth?



Y'all do realize it's no more ridiculous than the rest of it, don't you?


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## centerpin fan (May 29, 2014)

Dr. Strangelove said:


> So, this is unbelievable and all the rest is accepted truth?
> 
> 
> 
> Y'all do realize it's no more ridiculous than the rest of it, don't you?



The gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing.

1 Cor. 1:18


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## vonnick52 (May 29, 2014)

Sounds like we have another televangelist in the making.


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## Artfuldodger (May 29, 2014)

Maybe there are some Christians with certain gifts of the Holy Spirit. I personally have never met one. I've never been in a Church where the preacher made the announcement: if one is in need of demon removal Brother Jones has the gift to cast them out. Sister Smith can remove fire from burns if that is useful. 
If I was Sister Smith and God gave me that gift I would be at the Burn Center every day to help people with their pain.
I don't know the process of having the people with gifts hook up with the afflicted.


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## BT Charlie (May 29, 2014)

Art, what did Paul tell us about gifts of the Spirit?

You argue for your limitations and fo sho they are yours (using the pronouns generically and not specifically).

Pigeon shoots always remind me of this Gabrahnism.  The big money events were put on by tricky men.  They tied strings of various lengths to the birds. When a birds was flushed, the guys would tug its string left, or right, or down -- all at various heights governed by the length of the string.  Played havoc with that bird.  After a week or so of this training the bird would naturally react as it had been trained ... Even when the strings were removed.

Are we really free in Christ...or were we born with strings? Who is pulling your string?


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## hobbs27 (May 29, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe there are some Christians with certain gifts of the Holy Spirit. I personally have never met one. I've never been in a Church where the preacher made the announcement: if one is in need of demon removal Brother Jones has the gift to cast them out. Sister Smith can remove fire from burns if that is useful.
> If I was Sister Smith and God gave me that gift I would be at the Burn Center every day to help people with their pain.
> I don't know the process of having the people with gifts hook up with the afflicted.



That's a very good point. Funny how most that proclaim to have these gifts decide to make money with it instead of just sharing God's love with it.

 During the time of spiritual gifts there were two temples. The Old Testament was still in effect with the New Testament in its infancy.

Jesus came to save the lost sheep of Israel, and He delayed His coming back for 40 years so that all the lost sheep may have a chance to convert, I was just reading about this the other day ...I think 2 Peter...it's just after the 1,000 years as a day a day as a thousand years verses.
 These gifts we read about were given to convince the lost sheep God wanted them to join the Kingdom of God. We no longer have that need since the old temple is gone forever.


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## formula1 (May 29, 2014)

*Re:*

There are only Christians with the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit distributes gifts to Christians according to God's will and purpose. Those who say they can perform any gift outside the will of the Father are in dreamland, as are those who operate outside of Love.

But the possibility of gifts (including this OP's subject matter) working today are not dead.  I know this because the Father and the Son are not dead, and the Spirit who distributes is not dead.  And, 'That which is perfect has not come' because 'I do not see clearly, but dimly', and definitely I do not see face-to-face.

God Bless!


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## gordon 2 (May 29, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> That's a very good point. Funny how most that proclaim to have these gifts decide to make money with it instead of just sharing God's love with it.
> 
> During the time of spiritual gifts there were two temples. The Old Testament was still in effect with the New Testament in its infancy.
> 
> ...



You are possessed by a Spirit of Blanket Statements. This spirit has no conscious. It will make you say the darnest things...  In politics this spirit goes by the name Spin. 


Perhaps the gift or skill of an exorcist is not more than the ability to recognize evil and the fruits thereof. This is more than some of us can do since we muddle along as to what is right and wrong, and have a hard time of the simple tests of faith. The perspective points of the exorcist must be a bit more wide than for some Christians. Clearly for the light sufficient to shine on sin and added, too, one's willingness to act in Christ for the benefit of others requires a special heart.

We are oppressed everyday by forces outside of our control.  And they can come in uninvited. Sometimes like sudden unexplained anxiety we are trapped by spiritual forces which seem to overwhelm our wits. We develop twitches, ticks and verbalize all kinds of talk at inappropriate times. We get depressed, or manic. We are overtired, we self medicate and it only gets worse. These have effects on our bodies via our egos, or our psychologies making love a more difficult action than needs be.


I don't know how much money was made for this singing, but the truth of it is worth more than a winning lottery ticket for someone who "needs" to get close to Jesus.


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## gordon 2 (May 29, 2014)

Also, if the congregation  that the young man belongs to, provided it has elders, is in agreement that this young man has an anointing, and also that they are prepared to guide him so he does not get overwelmed himself, than I see no problems with this. Adam and Jesus are the sons of God and we are related to both no matter our age.

On the other hand if the congregation squirm in their seats and refuses alter calls when this young person ministers--be cautious. Jesus is also in the church and not only in the individual pilgrim, ministers and elders.


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## StriperAddict (May 29, 2014)

formula1 said:


> There are only Christians with the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit distributes gifts to Christians according to God's will and purpose. Those who say they can perform any gift outside the will of the Father are in dreamland, as are those who operate outside of Love.
> 
> But the possibility of gifts (including this OP's subject matter) working today are not dead. I know this because the Father and the Son are not dead, and the Spirit who distributes is not dead. And, 'That which is perfect has not come' because 'I do not see clearly, but dimly', and definitely I do not see face-to-face.
> 
> God Bless!


 
Well said... thanks brother!


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## gordon 2 (May 29, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe there are some Christians with certain gifts of the Holy Spirit. I personally have never met one. I've never been in a Church where the preacher made the announcement: if one is in need of demon removal Brother Jones has the gift to cast them out. Sister Smith can remove fire from burns if that is useful.
> If I was Sister Smith and God gave me that gift I would be at the Burn Center every day to help people with their pain.
> I don't know the process of having the people with gifts hook up with the afflicted.



Though all pain might result form the same deformity we will need the general resurrection and judgement to get where your aiming. Or, we can try to help people to spiritually cope with their pain until then. Perhaps. For example if I ever  get the skin burned off my butt due to a cycle spin, I fully expect my minister to make me laugh after the morphine and nerve pain meds are stopped from the doc's protocol.


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## rjcruiser (May 29, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Now if he already has the Atheists and he can't possess Christians, whose left for the demons to possess?



I John tells us...we are either of Christ...or of the devil.  So...to your question, no one 



			
				Artfuldodger said:
			
		

> When I do something good or bad, I have difficulty deciding who to blame or praise, God, me, or the Devil!



When you do something good...it is from the Holy Spirit...praise Him! 

When you do something that is bad, it is from your own flesh....blame yourself.

Do this and you'll be just fine when it comes to giving credit where it is due.



NE GA Pappy said:


> I don't understand people who are cessationist.  I keep looking for anything in scripture that would indicate that the gifts of the spirit were not for us today, and I just don't see it.  If you do any study of the subject, you will find that in almost every generation from the 1st century to now, the have been outpourings of gifts.
> 
> If anybody can point me to a verse that says God gave these gifts to only a couple of generations, please post it up.
> 
> I read where it says God in not a respecter of persons, and if we ask, He will freely give.



What was the purpose of the gifts that the apostles had?

Answer that question and I think you'll realize that the need for the sign gifts ended long ago.


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## DEERFU (May 29, 2014)

formula1 said:


> There are only Christians with the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit distributes gifts to Christians according to God's will and purpose. Those who say they can perform any gift outside the will of the Father are in dreamland, as are those who operate outside of Love.
> 
> But the possibility of gifts (including this OP's subject matter) working today are not dead.  I know this because the Father and the Son are not dead, and the Spirit who distributes is not dead.  And, 'That which is perfect has not come' because 'I do not see clearly, but dimly', and definitely I do not see face-to-face.
> 
> God Bless!


 Amen Brutha!!!!!!


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## 04ctd (May 30, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> Also, if the congregation  that the young man belongs to, provided it has _elders, is in agreement that this young man has an anointing, and also that they are prepared to guide him so he does not get overwelmed himself, than I see no problems with this._ Adam and Jesus are the sons of God and we are related to both no matter our age.
> 
> On the other hand if the congregation squirm in their seats and refuses alter calls when this young person ministers--be cautious. Jesus is also in the church and not only in the individual pilgrim, ministers and elders.



_this _is your answer.

as the Patriarch of this family, you need to talk to your Pastor, and say, i will be absent from our church for a while. and ask him to be in prayer for you & yours.

and go sit in this other church for a month or so (takes a while to see ALL the little foxes who ruin the whole vineyard)

and _see what is going on firsthand._

this is one of my favorite sayings:
"if someone is important to you, you will spend time with them"
sounds like you need to spend some time at the source of this, with the person who is important to you, and pray mightily for wisdom & discernment.


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## gordon 2 (May 30, 2014)

04ctd said:


> _this _is your answer.
> 
> as the Patriarch of this family, you need to talk to your Pastor, and say, i will be absent from our church for a while. and ask him to be in prayer for you & yours.
> 
> ...



The person important to me in this is the pilgrim and I have spent many yrs with him/her in prayer--all kinds of them. I have sat in worship in many other christian communities ( other than my own). My first hand observation is that when people get to squirm in their seats when young people are ministering it is because there is a problem with the anointing. Although some communities are  of a stock of people that are good but stubborn and prone to rebellion, when it comes to young people ministering to adults it is usually an issue of anointing and a young person's capacity for mature judgement. However with God, the other person most important to me, the exception is possible.

I will, nonetheless, take your council to mind and heart. I will do as you say. Also, many church communities do the best they can with what they have. And some having nothing! --Yet Jesus shows up just the same-- if there is a need.


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## Israel (May 30, 2014)

perhaps it is a good question to ask...did Jesus heal because it was a means of verifying his person...you know...a sort of divine stamp...or was it something else?
Was it a heart broken without judgment for the one who was ignorantly snared, taken captive, and manifesting the signs of that abuse, even when complicit in will? And because of the entrance into "that death" on behalf of another, mercy flowed, power was manifest...not as mere imprimatur, but because the power of two agreed in heaven, even three, nothing could withstand?
If it be faith that works by love, and is even affirmed, in power, might it be that the "sign" gift has always been compassion, and not the perfection of our theologies?
Is Jesus Lord because of the power...or is the power the manifestation of the reality of "how" Jesus is?
What happens when we awake?


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## hobbs27 (May 30, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> You are possessed by a Spirit of Blanket Statements. This spirit has no conscious. It will make you say the darnest things...  In politics this spirit goes by the name Spin.
> >



Im also guilty of pointing out the parts of the bible people dont want to accept--its there so we should believe in it vs. what we are taught by tradition or denomination. Yet to get along we turn a blind eye to it.... I try to not do that anymore.

 Folks this young man says he can cast demons from people and see's the demons. We have a serious problem in this country recognizing mental illness. I suggest a mental evaluation first while he's 16 years old and must submit to his father. If this is a mental illness he will soon be age enough to deny help on his own. Get him looked at before he gets himself hurt or hurts others.... If by chance this is a spiritual gift he will understand and cooperate.


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## NE GA Pappy (May 30, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> What was the purpose of the gifts that the apostles had?
> 
> Answer that question and I think you'll realize that the need for the sign gifts ended long ago.



So, if you think you have it all figured out, tell me, what were this gifts for?  Do you really think that the need for signs and wonders has ended?  Mankind has advanced that far?

Kinda makes it hard to explain the scripture that says God is not a respecter of persons, that He is the same yesterday, today and forever and He doesn't change.


Didn't Jesus say he came to fulfill the scriptures, not to destroy them?  

Jesus himself said if we had the faith of a mustard seed, we could speak to the mountain and it would move.  I suspect that it is not God nor His power that have become weak and worthless, but that we have become faithless and ignorant of His ways.


----------



## gordon 2 (May 30, 2014)

Israel said:


> perhaps it is a good question to ask...did Jesus heal because it was a means of verifying his person...you know...a sort of divine stamp...or was it something else?
> Was it a heart broken without judgment for the one who was ignorantly snared, taken captive, and manifesting the signs of that abuse, even when complicit in will? And because of the entrance into "that death" on behalf of another, mercy flowed, power was manifest...not as mere imprimatur, but because the power of two agreed in heaven, even three, nothing could withstand?
> If it be faith that works by love, and is even affirmed, in power, might it be that the "sign" gift has always been compassion, and not the perfection of our theologies?
> Is Jesus Lord because of the power...or is the power the manifestation of the reality of "how" Jesus is?
> What happens when we awake?



I think we loved much. And I think your on to something important here. A moment of grace in the here and now, just because God has always heard the innocent cries of the oppressed, perhaps. "What greater love that God should send his only begotten son"..to heal the sick.

Perhaps.

It is my experience or knowledge that "real" faith healers minister(ed) for no other motive than loving people. That this made people come closer to God was secondary.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (May 30, 2014)

if this kid was saying he was seeing ghost and could talk with them, a crowd of people would join in and tell him what a wonderful gift he had been given.

This world is mixed up.


----------



## gordon 2 (May 30, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Im also guilty of pointing out the parts of the bible people dont want to accept--its there so we should believe in it vs. what we are taught by tradition or denomination. Yet to get along we turn a blind eye to it.... I try to not do that anymore.
> 
> Folks this young man says he can cast demons from people and see's the demons. We have a serious problem in this country recognizing mental illness. I suggest a mental evaluation first while he's 16 years old and must submit to his father. If this is a mental illness he will soon be age enough to deny help on his own. Get him looked at before he gets himself hurt or hurts others.... If by chance this is a spiritual gift he will understand and cooperate.




The demons he sees, perhaps we do also only by another name not knowing them as demons, but calling them instead spirits, sin, humors,....

Parents know when their children are sick just by looking at them. Could some children do the same looking at parents? Perhaps.

My issue is not mental illness. Rather I be concerned about mental fitness, since the male brain is only fully developed in the late 20s regards ability to make sound judgement. Science so states regrads the physical devepment of the brain's frontal cortex, but also interesting is that some jews ( hebrews), I am told, since ancient days viewed adulthood  for males to commence at 30...


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## Artfuldodger (May 30, 2014)

Israel said:


> perhaps it is a good question to ask...did Jesus heal because it was a means of verifying his person...you know...a sort of divine stamp...or was it something else?
> Was it a heart broken without judgment for the one who was ignorantly snared, taken captive, and manifesting the signs of that abuse, even when complicit in will? And because of the entrance into "that death" on behalf of another, mercy flowed, power was manifest...not as mere imprimatur, but because the power of two agreed in heaven, even three, nothing could withstand?
> If it be faith that works by love, and is even affirmed, in power, might it be that the "sign" gift has always been compassion, and not the perfection of our theologies?
> Is Jesus Lord because of the power...or is the power the manifestation of the reality of "how" Jesus is?
> What happens when we awake?



I think that is a valuable question, "why did Jesus heal?" God could heal without Jesus. Jesus healed by using the power of his Father. The Apostles also healed.
I'm talking about things that would place a whole crowd of people in awe. I'm talking about healing the people of a whole town. People who were blind and people who couldn't walk. When was the last time you saw someone in a wheelchair get up and walk?
I don't know why Jesus healed but I think it was more than compassion. Maybe it was an example of loving others. We might not can do what Jesus did but we can love to the best of our abilities. That in itself would be a miracle. Imagine a whole day where nobody was robbed or shot. Nobody was hated or cheated. That would be a miracle.
Why did Jesus heal?


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## gemcgrew (May 31, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why did Jesus heal?


His Father willed it.


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## hobbs27 (May 31, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> What was the purpose of the gifts that the apostles had?
> 
> Answer that question and I think you'll realize that the need for the sign gifts ended long ago.



Looking into this I found this, is it inline with your thoughts?

_The Spiritual Gift of Apostles Defined

There is much confusion regarding the spiritual gift of apostleship because there is sometimes a failure to distinguish between the office of apostle and the gift of apostle. The office of apostle refers to the twelve chosen by Jesus (e.g., Matthew 10:1; 19:28; 20:17; Mark 3:13-19; 6:7; 9:35; 10:32; Luke 6:12-16; 8:1; 9:1; 22:19-30; John 6:70-71; Revelation 21:14). The requirements for the office of apostle include being an eyewitness to the life and resurrection of Jesus (Acts 1:21-26). Another requirement is miraculous power (Acts 2:43; 5:12; 8:18; 2 Corinthians 12:12; Hebrews 2:4). Therefore, apostles do not exist today
_


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## Israel (May 31, 2014)

I find a people who believe Jesus acted "more" personally in the choosing of Judas, then let's say, the election of Paul. 

(Lest we forget the others, Silas, Barnabas, Appollos, Mathias, who, I am sure, give testimony to their apostleship in the arguments they generate.) Not to mention Yashphe Beulah Hepzibah...perhaps unknown to most on this planet, but well known of Heaven, nevertheless.
Coming from, being sent to, living among a people who despise authority, it is not unusual to find this creeping thing having soiled, to some extent, even the consciences of believers.

Preferring our apostles and prophets at some remove, conveniently (perhaps), we may feel free to presume much in our conversations, with even marvelous imaginations constructed to inform our souls..."at least I would have gone to visit Paul in prison".
We forget how common we are. We forget our common need. We forget our commonness of soil. 
We may even forget "until"...as in:

And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.…


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## BT Charlie (May 31, 2014)

Amen!  Beautiful.


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## rjcruiser (May 31, 2014)

NE GA Pappy said:


> So, if you think you have it all figured out, tell me, what were this gifts for?  Do you really think that the need for signs and wonders has ended?  Mankind has advanced that far?



first off...I dont have it all figured out... I'm merely expressing my point of view. Second, why are you asking me the same question I asked you?

As far as your questions...
1)they were to validate their message
2) Yes
3) No...it has nothing to do with the advancement of mankind.



			
				NE Ga Pappy said:
			
		

> Kinda makes it hard to explain the scripture that says God is not a respecter of persons, that He is the same yesterday, today and forever and He doesn't change.
> 
> Didn't Jesus say he came to fulfill the scriptures, not to destroy them?
> 
> Jesus himself said if we had the faith of a mustard seed, we could speak to the mountain and it would move.  I suspect that it is not God nor His power that have become weak and worthless, but that we have become faithless and ignorant of His ways.



Using scripture out of context is a poor way to prove your point. True...God is the same today as he was 2000 years ago....but that has nothing to do with spiritual gifts. 

The mustard seed passage has nothing to do with the ability to heal or prophesy.

What is interesting is that the only sign gifts that are still "open for interpretation" are those that can't be proven or disproven. Tongues and healings. So far, every goober that's prophesied the end of the world has been proven a heretic.  



hobbs27 said:


> Looking into this I found this, is it inline with your thoughts?
> 
> _The Spiritual Gift of Apostles Defined
> 
> ...



Yes....and Paul saw the risen savior on the road to Damascus allowing him to be considered an apostle. 

But the definition of an apostle is not why I'm a cessationist.


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## SemperFiDawg (May 31, 2014)

To the OP

A House Divided Cannot Stand

22 Then one was brought to Him who was demon-possessed, blind and mute; and He healed him, so that the blind and[a] mute man both spoke and saw. 23 And all the multitudes were amazed and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”

24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub,* the ruler of the demons.”

25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.

I don't know if your Grandson is casting out demons or not.  Why don't you go to church with him for starters to get a better idea of what's being taught and where he's at in his faith?

What I do know is this.

Whatever is happening it's not unscriptural nor is it satanic. " .... A house divided will not stand."

He's reaching out to his friends in the name of God.  That in itself speaks volumes.  When is the last time one of us has done the same?  I'm guessing the answers may be embarrassing, yet it's exactly what we are called to do.

There are a lot of worse places and things a teen boy could be doing.  

Vernon McGee said that one of these days someone was gonna read the Bible, take it at its word, and they were gonna set this world on fire.   Maybe that's your grandson.  If it is, what effect is your advice gonna have on him?*


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## Israel (May 31, 2014)

There's one who doesn't play fair because he is so much more than fair, and following him to the depths seems, at first, easily within our capabilities.

Swimming in the sea of conjecture is fun till we start to drown.

But it's there, and perhaps only there, the truest cry may be answered by the truest heart.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 1, 2014)

Israel said:


> There's one who doesn't play fair because he is so much more than fair, and following him to the depths seems, at first, easily within our capabilities.
> 
> Swimming in the sea of conjecture is fun till we start to drown.
> 
> But it's there, and perhaps only there, the truest cry may be answered by the truest heart.



Yep.   Perhaps  or despite our greatest joys in Him for our grand findings, the place of a person's or man's truest "sad crying" is were grace comes into its fullness, finding us broken. In this, from Him we are given no more to bare. And in this we are given  new ears, new eyes and a new heart-- to hear Him and in turn extend our renewed senses and His grace to people.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 1, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> You are possessed by a Spirit of Blanket Statements.


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## Israel (Jun 1, 2014)

Yes, our executioner wears no mask. He is neither ashamed nor apologetic for where he leads us. 
But he ministers the same abundance of grace he discovered in being taken to a place he didn't want to go, where the joy that was set before him was revealed.

"Tear down this temple" he both prophesied, and commanded. And we obeyed. Almost tricked, as it were, into discovering salvation by our own cleverness in trying to use the truth against him.
Never bring a knife to a gun fight.
And only try to be wiser than God for as long as you need to.
But no longer than that.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 1, 2014)

What's harder for Jesus to do, forgive your sins or cast out demons, forgive sins or make a donkey talk, forgive sins or speak the universe into existence, forgive sins or part the Sea for Moses, forgive sins or have a fish swallow a man and spit him out in 3 days, forgive sins or ...........

It's sad that that we who trust Jesus with the power to forgive our very sins lack the faith to benefit from all that God can do.

The Jews in Christ's day had no problem believing he could perform miracles.  They saw it.  They just didn't believe he could forgive sins because they had no faith that he was God incarnate.

We suffer from the opposite.

We readily accept he is God and has forgiven our sins, yet we don't think he can perform miracles through the Holy Spirit who resides inside us.

Quite often God goes no further than our faith will allow us to see and understand.


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## Israel (Jun 1, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> What's harder for Jesus to do, forgive your sins or cast out demons, forgive sins or make a donkey talk, forgive sins or speak the universe into existence, forgive sins or part the Sea for Moses, forgive sins or have a fish swallow a man and spit him out in 3 days, forgive sins or ...........
> 
> It's sad that that we who trust Jesus with the power to forgive our very sins lack the faith to benefit from all that God can do.
> 
> ...



I don't mean to be contentious, because I  accept what you have written.
Can it be that the "forgiveness of sin" is really far deeper than we imagine in our "readily accepting"? Might it be that that "readily accepting" is just the mouthing of 2000 years of religious tradition, that there must be a rediscovery of that significance...a plumbing of the depths of that, an uncovering of the old cisterns, the casting out and up of stones that litter a path once made level in the sight of our "fathers"?
Perhaps what passes for belief in being cleansed is lip service of a sort, and the arrival of a people uninhibited by fear, doubt, and accusation is yet for the waiting...and seeking?

What really, does a free man look like?
How does a man shameless before God appear?
I may have seen some.
They are shames to the world.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 1, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> What's harder for Jesus to do, forgive your sins or cast out demons, forgive sins or make a donkey talk, forgive sins or speak the universe into existence, forgive sins or part the Sea for Moses, forgive sins or have a fish swallow a man and spit him out in 3 days, forgive sins or ...........
> 
> It's sad that that we who trust Jesus with the power to forgive our very sins lack the faith to benefit from all that God can do.



 Very nice, and I agree. Problem is many men today want to be as the Pharisee and lift themselves up to appear closer to God than others, to appear more in touch, to appear gifted by God to do Gods work. Gods work has been done, and the way we know if something is of God is seeing who gets the glory. When Jesus forgives sin, heals the sick, makes the blind to see, its all about Jesus and He gets the glory, not some idiot charging 20 bucks at the door to get in and see him.




> The Jews in Christ's day had no problem believing he could perform miracles.  They saw it.  They just didn't believe he could forgive sins because they had no faith that he was God incarnate.
> 
> We suffer from the opposite.
> 
> ...



 He has done enough. His fame has gone out to the whole world, there's nothing left for Him to do but be our Lord. We are in the NT and things are new; times are different.




> Vernon McGee said that one of these days someone was gonna read the Bible, take it at its word, and they were gonna set this world on fire.



 Sadly the person that takes the bible for its word will be labeled an heretic!


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## gordon 2 (Jun 1, 2014)

Israel said:


> I don't mean to be contentious, because I  accept what you have written.
> Can it be that the "forgiveness of sin" is really far deeper than we imagine in our "readily accepting"? Might it be that that "readily accepting" is just the mouthing of 2000 years of religious tradition, that there must be a rediscovery of that significance...a plumbing of the depths of that, an uncovering of the old cisterns, the casting out and up of stones that litter a path once made level in the sight of our "fathers"?
> Perhaps what passes for belief in being cleansed is lip service of a sort, and the arrival of a people uninhibited by fear, doubt, and accusation is yet for the waiting...and seeking?
> 
> ...



My view now is that this free man is what he has always been. We know him by the wound in his side. It is what pierces the soul of a Christian in order to rub out the old man and to make him born again with a new spirit--which is the cross.

It is a man such as Paul for this  declaration: "  For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

And it is in the prophecy of Simeon: 34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;

35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.
----------------
Those who the Father gives Jesus are so pierced and wounded by the cross. Our freedom is that some are being saved for the power of the cross which is the power of God. So a free man looks like any other man, except he/she has a wound in their side and having died to sin for it, they now live within a renewing light.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 1, 2014)

Israel said:


> I don't mean to be contentious, because I  accept what you have written.
> Can it be that the "forgiveness of sin" is really far deeper than we imagine in our "readily accepting"? Might it be that that "readily accepting" is just the mouthing of 2000 years of religious tradition, that there must be a rediscovery of that significance...a plumbing of the depths of that, an uncovering of the old cisterns, the casting out and up of stones that litter a path once made level in the sight of our "fathers"?
> Perhaps what passes for belief in being cleansed is lip service of a sort, and the arrival of a people uninhibited by fear, doubt, and accusation is yet for the waiting...and seeking?
> 
> ...



I have no idea what you just said.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jun 1, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Very nice, and I agree. Problem is many men today want to be as the Pharisee and lift themselves up to appear closer to God than others, to appear more in touch, to appear gifted by God to do Gods work. Gods work has been done, and the way we know if something is of God is seeing who gets the glory. When Jesus forgives sin, heals the sick, makes the blind to see, its all about Jesus and He gets the glory, not some idiot charging 20 bucks at the door to get in and see him.



So if this teen is casting out demons for the glory of God(which would seem like it's the case) and not charging 20 dollars per demon it's all good then, no mental illness there?  I agree.





hobbs27 said:


> He has done enough. His fame has gone out to the whole world, there's nothing left for Him to do but be our Lord. We are in the NT and things are new; times are different.




Just one question, Who are you to decide when God has done enough?   Does the clay rule the potter?



hobbs27 said:


> Sadly the person that takes the bible for its word will be labeled an heretic!



I don't think that's true at all.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 1, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> So if this teen is casting out demons for the glory of God(which would seem like it's the case) and not charging 20 dollars per demon it's all good then, no mental illness there?  I agree.



You made my point.. Jesus can cast out demons, this teen cannot. Thanks








SemperFiDawg said:


> Just one question, Who are you to decide when God has done enough?   Does the clay rule the potter?



 Wht else does God need to do to prove Himself God? 






SemperFiDawg said:


> I don't think that's true at all.



 You better hope this person agrees with you then!


----------



## BT Charlie (Jun 1, 2014)

A 16 year old boy interceding for the eternal life of his friends, battling not flesh and blood but the principalities...perhaps even glimpsing the enemy leave at the name of Jesus... .  

Perhaps Israel is suggesting that such a person is indeed free  in His Lord and Savior, though to the world he is an object of shame.  

Apparently, the learned Christians know that demons do not exist.  And anyway  if they do exist they do not influence believers....well, real ones anyway.  Nor do they speak or appear.  Since they do not exist, they cannot be driven out and away.  It's all perfect now...we're face-to-Face.

I would not like the Lord to harden my heart and blind my eyes -- granting me only my doctrinal comforts.  Break us open Lord...your will, not ours.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jun 1, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> first off...I dont have it all figured out... I'm merely expressing my point of view. Second, why are you asking me the same question I asked you?



1st.... you said when I figured out what the gifts were for, that I would know why they ended.  You said you believed the gifts were not for today, so apparently you figured out why we had them to began with???  

2nd,   because of the above.  If you know why the gifts were present, and why they are not here now, please enlighten the rest of us.

Could you please explain Mark 16...

It has been used to prove that gifts are not for today, but perhaps it is we, as believers, who have not followed through with our part.

15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

It appears to me, if we are not healing the sick, casting out demons, speaking in tongues , etc... then it is because we don't believe, and are not saved.

Either that, or Christ is a liar.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 1, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I have no idea what you just said.



He is clear to me. There is more than  the forgiveness of sin to the ministry of Jesus for a disciple and forgiveness of sin also might include exorcism in some cases. Perhaps not all sin is of our making, with perhaps the demons of our fathers ( Adam et al. ) and others still visiting some-- disfiguring sons yet only plainly seen by His ministers.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 1, 2014)

NE GA Pappy said:


> 1st.... you said when I figured out what the gifts were for, that I would know why they ended.  You said you believed the gifts were not for today, so apparently you figured out why we had them to began with???
> 
> 2nd,   because of the above.  If you know why the gifts were present, and why they are not here now, please enlighten the rest of us.
> 
> ...



 Good Point. Ditto. Which brings to light the purposes of our lives in Christ.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 1, 2014)

NE GA Pappy said:


> 1st.... you said when I figured out what the gifts were for, that I would know why they ended.  You said you believed the gifts were not for today, so apparently you figured out why we had them to began with???
> 
> 2nd,   because of the above.  If you know why the gifts were present, and why they are not here now, please enlighten the rest of us.
> 
> ...



So the only saved people are the snake handlers/poison drinkers?


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## Ronnie T (Jun 1, 2014)

Mark 6:7-12 And He summoned the twelve and began to send them out in pairs, and gave them authority over the unclean spirits; and He instructed them that they should take nothing for their journey, except a mere staff--no bread, no bag, no money in their belt--but to wear sandals; and He added, "Do not put on two tunics." And He said to them, "Wherever you enter a house, stay there until you leave town. Any place that does not receive you or listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them." They went out and preached that men should repent."

*Christ, according to His word, has never given any of us 'authority over unclean spirits'........ other than our lives lived in Christ.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 1, 2014)

NE GA Pappy said:


> 1st.... you said when I figured out what the gifts were for, that I would know why they ended.  You said you believed the gifts were not for today, so apparently you figured out why we had them to began with???
> 
> 2nd,   because of the above.  If you know why the gifts were present, and why they are not here now, please enlighten the rest of us.
> 
> ...




We are not "them". It's the most common biblical error we make today by placing ourselves into the bible. We can learn from the bible but it is written for us not to us.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jun 1, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> So the only saved people are the snake handlers/poison drinkers?



what do you read that Christ said?  It's not my speech, nor do I purposely go around looking for snakes and drinking poison. 

I only know what the Word says....


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Jun 1, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> We are not "them". It's the most common biblical error we make today by placing ourselves into the bible. We can learn from the bible but it is written for us not to us.



which "them" are you referring?  the one he was speaking to, or the ones who believe and are saved?

If you are saying that He only was speaking to the disciples, then are you also saying that we can't be saved because He wasn't speaking to us? The term whosoever covers a lot of people.  I am part of whosoever, and so are you, if you are a believer.  

I don't think you can have it both ways.  Either Christ was saying that anyone who believes can be saved, or He wasn't.  

Then he said the believers could cast out demons..... 

go figure.....

Either Christ was saying that ALL believers could have these powers, or he was mistaken.  You tell me which way it is.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 1, 2014)

NE GA Pappy said:


> what do you read that Christ said?  It's not my speech, nor do I purposely go around looking for snakes and drinking poison.
> 
> I only know what the Word says....



Why not pick up snakes and drink poison? It is after all a sign of the great commission. 
Here is some more on being a disciple:

Luke 14:26&33
26  “If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.
33  “So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions."


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## NE GA Pappy (Jun 1, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why not pick up snakes and drink poison? It is after all a sign of the great commission.
> Here is some more on being a disciple:
> 
> Luke 14:26&33
> ...



Great question.  So if Christ said these things, and we know that He is a true and faithful judge, then where does any justification for our lives come?   He, himself said that you had to hate even your own life to be a disciple.  That is a hard word, and one that is not followed by many today, myself included.  All I can hope and pray for is that the sacrifice that Christ paid on the cross is my justification and salvation.  

I know to do much more than I do, and am like Paul in the respect that I do the things I wish not to do, and do not the things I know to do.  

As to being a disciple of Christ, I have not arrived, nor do I believe in this life, I will reach perfection.  I can only do what I have the faith to do.  

If you have faith to raise the dead, heal the sick and cast out demon, who am I to question God's gifts and calling in your life.  I have enough issues with my gifts and calling than to judge another in how they live out theirs.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 1, 2014)

NE GA Pappy said:


> which "them" are you referring?  the one he was speaking to, or the ones who believe and are saved?
> 
> If you are saying that He only was speaking to the disciples, then are you also saying that we can't be saved because He wasn't speaking to us? The term whosoever covers a lot of people.  I am part of whosoever, and so are you, if you are a believer.
> 
> ...



Now that's some good questions and I'm hoping people will respond. It is hard to sometimes figure out when Jesus is addressing just his disciples and when he says salvation is for everyone. Why did the believers  that the disciples preached to show signs and now believers don't? I think it's a fair question. We're talking about everyday believers, not disciples with special gifts.
Still why isn't the snake handling & poison drinking a part of these signs today if tongues and casting out demons are?
If salvation is granted from God's grace and the death of his Son, do we really need proof or signs of an individual's salvation? Wouldn't a Christian helping another person, loving another person, or forgiving another person be a better sign? I thought Jesus dying on the cross was the only "sign" we needed.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jun 1, 2014)

Ronnie T said:


> Mark 6:7-12 And He summoned the twelve and began to send them out in pairs, and gave them authority over the unclean spirits; and He instructed them that they should take nothing for their journey, except a mere staff--no bread, no bag, no money in their belt--but to wear sandals; and He added, "Do not put on two tunics." And He said to them, "Wherever you enter a house, stay there until you leave town. Any place that does not receive you or listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them." They went out and preached that men should repent."
> 
> *Christ, according to His word, has never given any of us 'authority over unclean spirits'........ other than our lives lived in Christ.




I would beg to differ.

Mark 16:14


14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

17 *And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; *......

He was most certainly speaking of future believers and NOT the apostles when spoke this.  What I don't find in scripture is an expiration date on any of his statements or teachings.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 1, 2014)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Great question.  So if Christ said these things, and we know that He is a true and faithful judge, then where does any justification for our lives come?   He, himself said that you had to hate even your own life to be a disciple.  That is a hard word, and one that is not followed by many today, myself included.  All I can hope and pray for is that the sacrifice that Christ paid on the cross is my justification and salvation.
> 
> I know to do much more than I do, and am like Paul in the respect that I do the things I wish not to do, and do not the things I know to do.
> 
> ...



Amen, and that is a great testimony. Christ died on the cross for your sins and my sins. That is the only "sign" we need.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jun 1, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Amen, and that is a great testimony. Christ died on the cross for your sins and my sins. That is the only "sign" we need.



If that is the only sign we need, then why did Christ heal the people who came to him?  Why did He cast out demons? Why did he say that we would do greater things than these?   and I wonder also, why he said a wicked and perverse generation looks for a sign?

I fear we all fall extremely short of what we should be capable when we dismiss some things as "for that time and not for us now".  Face it... we are all biased in our beliefs.  Few are able to disregard the teaching and thoughts placed into us as children or young adults and readily accept the Bible for what it says.  We all try to twist this, or delete that. We try to justify the Word by our beliefs, rather than forming our beliefs on the Word.

I am as guilty as anyone here.  I belief certain ways because I was taught those things at my mothers knee.  To dismiss them goes against every fiber of my being.  I suppose that is why we are told to work out our own salvation, with fear and trembling.  

I still don't believe that I want to pick up that snake yet, though.  No No:


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 1, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I would beg to differ.
> 
> Mark 16:14
> 
> ...



Would the believers need to be baptized to be saved? Do all believers aquire all of "these signs" according to the scripture?
The verses before these where Jesus instructs "US" in how to spread the Word, do we need to comply? Go in pairs, no bread, no bag, no money?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 1, 2014)

It appears we are adding a lot of "rules" back into the Free Grace salvation granted to us by God and his Son. Rules we couldn't follow to begin with and thus needed a Savior.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jun 1, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Would the believers need to be baptized to be saved? Do all believers aquire all of "these signs" according to the scripture?
> The verses before these where Jesus instructs "US" in how to spread the Word, do we need to comply? Go in pairs, no bread, no bag, no money?



I believe the real question here is. Would we be better witnesses if we did follow the instructions given us?

Man, this thread has wandered far from the OP and his question.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 1, 2014)

Again, if all and I do mean all of the signs are necessary then God have mercy on our souls as we are not producing all of the signs.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jun 1, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Again, if all and I do mean all of the signs are necessary then God have mercy on our souls as we are not producing all of the signs.



did Paul not cover this question in his discourse on the parts of the body?

Are all hands?  are all feet?  

We are each given gifts in our lives, some to preach, some to heal, some of tongues.  Not all are prophets, not all teach, but we all testify to the work that Christ has done in our lives.

I don't believe for one minute that to be saved, each gifts must be demonstrated in each Christian. I do believe in a body of believers you will have some of the gifts demonstrated and working.  If there are not, then that body is missing out on some the most powerful and influentiual demonstrations of Gods power.

And to totally dismiss these gifts as not for today.... I just don't see that in scripture at all.


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## BT Charlie (Jun 1, 2014)

Israel said:


> This closest to what I'd written in response to your post.
> At least as to what I'd hoped to convey.
> But as Gordon has also rightly said:
> 
> ...




Don McLane's song about Vincent Van Gough...what was it, "Starry, Starry Night" ... comes to my sub-mensean mind when I read your stuff.

...   And the Daffodils.

I'm glad you're here.  The world is terribly unkind and difficult, even if -- no, perhaps particularly if -- one is dangerously mad...in Christ.   It has no power over me that my Father hasn't given it... Freedom!


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## Israel (Jun 1, 2014)

BT Charlie said:


> Don McLane's song about Vincent Van Gough...what was it, "Starry, Starry Night" ... comes to my sub-mensean mind when I read your stuff.
> 
> ...   And the Daffodils.
> 
> I'm glad you're here.  The world is terribly unkind and difficult, even if -- no, perhaps particularly if -- one is dangerously mad...in Christ.   It has no power over me that my Father hasn't given it... Freedom!



indeed.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 2, 2014)

NE GA Pappy said:


> which "them" are you referring?  the one he was speaking to, or the ones who believe and are saved?
> 
> If you are saying that He only was speaking to the disciples, then are you also saying that we can't be saved because He wasn't speaking to us? The term whosoever covers a lot of people.  I am part of whosoever, and so are you, if you are a believer.
> 
> ...



I m not saying we cannot be saved, our salvation is confirmed throughout the bible, yet this casting of devils to common folk only appears here so what gives?

_14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be --ed.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
_

 It is finished! And since it is finished you don't have to test God by handling snakes..Paul did it here and now it's done: Acts 28:3


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## Israel (Jun 2, 2014)

As I lay one night on a cot, in the home of an apostle's mother,  regretting and resenting my seeming subjugation in my adventures in Jesus (this apostle had taken me in, but at times I very much felt like a castaway...) I was overtaken in a bitterness and gall that was both real and insulating. A fuming anger was my meat that night and I purposed to dine alone. Alone is where I thought I wanted to be. Alone as in left alone, as in just leave me alone, as in keep your prying eyes off me alone. Alone as in "enough already".
In the darkness, wrapped as I was in my blanket and cocoon of bitterness, this brother began to pray, as was his custom before we drifted off to sleep. He began to pray for me. I didn't want it, didn't want to hear it, didn't want any of it. 

Sometimes our testimony is little more than "something kept me from telling this brother to shut the he11 up".
And as he appealed to his Father, our Father, for mercy toward me, a revealing of tenderness, (no, he didn't thunder in lion's roar at what was plain he saw "in spirit") he just continued to ask for someone who didn't want to be asked for, who had no interest in that moment of asking, seeking, or even knocking...a strangely marvelous thing was taking place..."over me"...I sensed a palpable lightness, a clearing of the air, a thing I could explain in perhaps a thousand ways but would never begin to touch the reality of it. But regardless, what was once over as a suffocating shroud evaporated in moments, and I was drinking the clear fresh air of heaven.
It was all but in a few seconds. 
And I see now that when I was suffocating, I didn't know it, it was as normal as as normal could have been, as right a way to be and feel, until...something else broke through. It was only then, in that light, in that airiness, in that clearness the discerning of light and dark could be seen. 
A blind man knows no concept of light. Till he sees. Till then, light is just a word he may use because he hears others use it. "I have no light" he may even say a truth, but still not knowing what it is he lacks.
Thanks be to God for the one sent to have his eyes closed that we might see.

Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD's servant?

Whether the devils were in me or upon me, whether they were cast out or simply untangled, God knows.
But whether men have been given authority over them through the faith of the son of God...God has let some know.

What else can there be but rejoicing...not for that authority, but that men may be known of heaven, inscribed even, by a firm stylus in an unwavering hand.
Written in blood.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 2, 2014)

NE GA Pappy said:


> If that is the only sign we need, then why did Christ heal the people who came to him?  Why did He cast out demons? Why did he say that we would do greater things than these?   and I wonder also, why he said a wicked and perverse generation looks for a sign?
> 
> I fear we all fall extremely short of what we should be capable when we dismiss some things as "for that time and not for us now".  Face it... we are all biased in our beliefs.  Few are able to disregard the teaching and thoughts placed into us as children or young adults and readily accept the Bible for what it says.  We all try to twist this, or delete that. We try to justify the Word by our beliefs, rather than forming our beliefs on the Word.
> 
> ...


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## gordon 2 (Jun 2, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Again, if all and I do mean all of the signs are necessary then God have mercy on our souls as we are not producing all of the signs.




What are disciples without the church? We as individual might not be doing all these things, but does the church, which we belong to or are members of, are these "signs" done?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 2, 2014)

1 Corinthians 14:22
So you see that speaking in tongues is a sign, not for believers, but for unbelievers. Prophecy, however, is for the benefit of believers, not unbelievers.

My proof I'm a Christian because I don't understand tongues? I didn't think prophecy was of the modern era either.  I'd better start finding me some phrophecy.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 2, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> What are disciples without the church? We as individual might not be doing all these things, but does the church, which we belong to or are members of, are these "signs" done?



I'm curious. I always thought the 11 or 12 Apostles were disciples but not all disciples are Apostles. Is this right or wrong ?

Also it seems the question you are asking is what is the church without the church, since the church is a make up of those saved by Christ.


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## Israel (Jun 2, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I'm curious. I always thought the 11 or 12 Apostles were disciples but not all disciples are Apostles. Is this right or wrong ?
> 
> Also it seems the question you are asking is what is the church without the church, since the church is a make up of those saved by Christ.



all called to be disciples, of those some are called as apostles, some evangelists, some prophets...as you well know, I am sure.

Together in harmony is the representation of the Lord in truth. In disharmony, nevertheless, not disowned.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 2, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I m not saying we cannot be saved, our salvation is confirmed throughout the bible, yet this casting of devils to common folk only appears here so what gives?
> 
> _14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
> 
> ...



Finished you say? Well, humming birds still come to my feeders, their multicolored dancing coats coming and going away. And new ones are born every season--  Honey cravers,craving my honey, dreaming of lands far away and valleys full of honey where there will be feeders for every humming bird of ever coat and fighting over mine will be done away with.

 Finished you say? What preacher is prepared to witness to such lost creatures and their children who for the food put up by my hand, put out there in fellowship and loving charity...yet created I these innocent creatures hellions? Or they have no wills of their own? I am no better than the snake in the garden to them?! I have offered them a food poison to their souls. Who dares pick me up, or leave me to my fate and minister to them who are now lost? Who dares to preach to these creatures,  or to me!

Finished? Maybe the snake Paul picked up out of the fire was one such as I, one who's bite was stayed long enough to be saved. And not because of my will, but because of what Paul new in trust.

Or was one snake picked up by Paul--the casting out of venom for all time and the spears of my humming birds not marshal instruments at all? and War and crimes are not of my making?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 2, 2014)

Did we ever get an answer on why the early unbelievers needed signs? Why did they get the benefit of more proof and thus needing less faith?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 2, 2014)

When in time or what era did the Bible stop being recorded and why? Why did the story stop at a certain time? When did the Bible stop being for us but not written to us from a time prospective?
How do we know Salvation was to be granted progessively through time if the Bible suddenly stopped being written?
As Pappy asked, why has casting out demons stopped but salvation is still being granted?


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## hobbs27 (Jun 2, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> Finished you say? Well, humming birds still come to my feeders, their multicolored dancing coats coming and going away. And new ones are born every season--  Honey cravers,craving my honey, dreaming of lands far away and valleys full of honey where there will be feeders for every humming bird of ever coat and fighting over mine will be done away with.
> 
> Finished you say? What preacher is prepared to witness to such lost creatures and their children who for the food put up by my hand, put out there in fellowship and loving charity...yet created I these innocent creatures hellions? Or they have no wills of their own? I am no better than the snake in the garden to them?! Who dares pick me up, or leave me to my fate and minister to them? Who dares to preach to these creatures, to me!
> 
> ...



You spiritualize the prophecy. That's ok with me, God's truth is thoroughly true, but Paul did physically take a bite from that deadly viper and suffered no harm, if it is now to be spiritualized as another meaning..ok. But are you ready to pick up those deadly vipers and tempt God?  I think not. I think the Holy Spirit has made Himself aware to you, and all other believers that snake handling is not necessary of this time, neither casting of demons for all that was done is recorded.


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## Israel (Jun 2, 2014)

I don't think snake handling was for any time, as neither was the drinking of poisons. One no more goes out looking for snakes to handle, demons to cast out, poison to drink or false doctrine to imbibe. No more than one looks for the pinnacle of a temple to cast oneself off of, or stones waiting to be turned to bread.
But bread will be multiplied, a pinnacle of death overcome, snakes shaken off and demons put in their place. 
Just not to show off that we are anything.
It happens.
Life, happens.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 2, 2014)

ThomasCobb123 said:


> My 16 year old grandson has been attending a small Baptist church which apparently teaches that anyone can cast out demons if he/she is spirit filled.
> I do not believe in this. I believe Jesus could do these things and I believe his disciples could do likewise but that's as far as it goes for me.
> Nevertheless my grandson is ministering to other teenagers and "casting out demons of Satan". He claims he can see the demons leaving their body.
> This is driving my son (his dad) up the wall and I've been assigned the task of finding how to approach the youngster on this without sounding like bashing his Christianity.
> ...


If you truly believe that what he is doing is false, love requires you to bash away. You would not be bashing his "Christianity", but his false "Christianity". Present your biblical evidence to him and without any concern for his feelings or for your relationship. Withholding truth... is an act of selfishness.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 2, 2014)

Israel said:


> I don't think snake handling was for any time, as neither was the drinking of poisons. One no more goes out looking for snakes to handle, demons to cast out, poison to drink or false doctrine to imbibe. No more than one looks for the pinnacle of a temple to cast oneself off of, or stones waiting to be turned to bread.
> But bread will be multiplied, a pinnacle of death overcome, snakes shaken off and demons put in their place.
> Just not to show off that we are anything.
> It happens.
> Life, happens.


I agree. About 3 weeks ago, I was invited to debate an Atheist for a total of two hours. He backed out at the last moment and was replaced by two women. I was led to focus on the one woman who had the best grasp of their foolish arguments. As each of her arguments were defeated by a proper biblical worldview, she became somewhat contorted and reduced to cursing, mocking in the most vile of ways and laughing at Jesus. There is hope for her and I fully expect her to return... out of curiosity.

At no time was I led to confront anything other than her... and by her name.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 2, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Did we ever get an answer on why the early unbelievers needed signs? Why did they get the benefit of more proof and thus needing less faith?



Unbelievers? The Jews did  require more proofs because they were "by the book" and this, the messianic age, had to align with the word. But the unbelievers or  the gentiles all they needed perhaps was the sign of the cross, the what "signs" followed were perhaps less important. While the Jews might be more prone to concretize the word, the gentiles were quite ready to spiritualize it, especially that the world was re-created for their new born again spiritual perspective. A new spirituality changed them, what could it do ministered to all creatures?


So perhaps the jews needed an unending litany  of proofs and alignments from the word, the gentiles on the otherhand were sufficiently impressed with what had happened to them spiritually. Perhaps.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 2, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I would beg to differ.
> 
> Mark 16:14
> 
> ...



I beg to differ....... really.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 2, 2014)

Israel said:


> I don't think snake handling was for any time, as neither was the drinking of poisons.



As for the actual act of "snake handling" I agree. The prophecy in Mark 16 is fulfilled though in Acts 28. It was a sign done for the benefit of the barbarians.

People may ask what is different in our time and the time of the Apostles?  A few points I would like to make. There were two temples at that time, a physical temple that represented the Old Covenant and the spiritual temple within man that was the new temple. This was the first generation of the new temple, God was doing what the Jew refused, expanding His Kingdom! He sent Paul to evangelize the gentile ..Paul through the gift of the Holy Spirit used signs to witness God to these people....thousands of years later, the Gospel has gone out to the whole world, many many generations have known God, there is only one covenant and only one temple. The signs used to spread the Gospel to the gentile are no longer needed nor used. God has His saved as witnesses to the lost that He is Lord!


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## StriperAddict (Jun 2, 2014)

Ronnie T said:


> I beg to differ....... really.


 
Serious?

Not taking a literal approach to that and others like it make most diciples today subserviant to earthly masters to discern the word for them then.  
I don't come to fellowship to be under anothers teaching; so much as hearing the word rightly divided in order to make me a free agent of His grace and power within me.  
To slay dragons within and without.


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## Israel (Jun 2, 2014)

maybe all it really comes down to is this. when you need "it" you will either believe "it's" available or not. Don't be concerned at all, when the need for "it" takes place, you'll know it.


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## Israel (Jun 2, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> I agree. About 3 weeks ago, I was invited to debate an Atheist for a total of two hours. He backed out at the last moment and was replaced by two women. I was led to focus on the one woman who had the best grasp of their foolish arguments. As each of her arguments were defeated by a proper biblical worldview, she became somewhat contorted and reduced to cursing, mocking in the most vile of ways and laughing at Jesus. There is hope for her and I fully expect her to return... out of curiosity.
> 
> At no time was I led to confront anything other than her... and by her name.


amen. great testimony of walking into a snake pit and not only coming out unscathed, but with hope of deliverance for the envenomated. (did I make that word up?)


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## gordon 2 (Jun 2, 2014)

Israel said:


> amen. great testimony of walking into a snake pit and not only coming out unscathed, but with hope of deliverance for the envenomated. (did I make that word up?)



That's ok. I plan to define it. De-praved, poison-ed, off-spring of Adam, anyone opposed to your politics, views and religion and general happiness.


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## rjcruiser (Jun 2, 2014)

NE GA Pappy said:


> 2nd,   because of the above.  If you know why the gifts were present, and why they are not here now, please enlighten the rest of us.



I did in my post above....it was to validate their message.



			
				NE GA Pappy said:
			
		

> Could you please explain Mark 16...



The Mark 16 passage was not for us....it was for those that were sent out early on. 

Context...context...context.

If the Mark 16 passage was for us....you should be able to drink poison and be just fine.  Ask Jim Jones' followers how that worked out. 



Artfuldodger said:


> So the only saved people are the snake handlers/poison drinkers?





Ronnie T said:


> Mark 6:7-12 And He summoned the twelve and began to send them out in pairs, and gave them authority over the unclean spirits; and He instructed them that they should take nothing for their journey, except a mere staff--no bread, no bag, no money in their belt--but to wear sandals; and He added, "Do not put on two tunics." And He said to them, "Wherever you enter a house, stay there until you leave town. Any place that does not receive you or listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them." They went out and preached that men should repent."
> 
> *Christ, according to His word, has never given any of us 'authority over unclean spirits'........ other than our lives lived in Christ.







Artfuldodger said:


> Did we ever get an answer on why the early unbelievers needed signs? Why did they get the benefit of more proof and thus needing less faith?



I don't think they had less faith...I think they had more.  Many early Christians suffered greatly even to the point of death for their faith (research Nero for an example).

I also think that the signs and wonders helped spread the message to the corners of the earth as well.  What better way to spread a message than to be able to speak to thousands of foreigners and have each one of them understand and be saved?



Artfuldodger said:


> When in time or what era did the Bible stop being recorded and why? Why did the story stop at a certain time? When did the Bible stop being for us but not written to us from a time prospective?
> How do we know Salvation was to be granted progessively through time if the Bible suddenly stopped being written?
> As Pappy asked, why has casting out demons stopped but salvation is still being granted?



Because that is all that God chose to reveal.  Based on scripture, I don't think God will reveal anything more through written word.  I think the next time God reveals Himself, it will be through the rapture and then His second coming.

As far as why salvation is still being granted...it is because there are still more to be saved.  Do we still need more proof that Christ is who He said He was?  I don't think so.  I think the Bible and all of the prophecy from it is proof enough.

And do I think God still performs miracles?  Of course I do....just not through healings.  I see people healed of cancer....I've experienced miracles in several personal instances....but it didn't include me sending off $100 to the local health-wealth prosperity preacher and praying on a special cloth.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 2, 2014)

Hey guys, Mark 16 was a later addition. The proof is there.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 3, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hey guys, Mark 16 was a later addition. The proof is there.


Would not "proof" be that which brings to bear the strongest influence on our mind?

I reject the proof.


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## 04ctd (Jul 4, 2014)

what did you ever find out?

i was talking to one of my friends, and they have been doing a home bible study in their house for about a decade.

about a dozen people have said they can see angels playing in the alcove under their steps, mostly young innocent kids, and truly devout clear minded people

the lady had never seen them, but many did, so one night she prayed for a sign, and the next morning, the angels had moved a little statuette out in the middle of the floor.

YMMV /IDK, but figured it would share.

she says a LOT of people see them, and she has a man who keeps her house when she is away, he calls & says he walks in, & sits down, and he can feel the Holy Spirit come over him, just by being there.

waiting for an update from your end, pray more!


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## BT Charlie (Jul 7, 2014)

I was wondering the outcome as well, hoping for God's will revealed.  The angels testimony is interesting.  In the Bible, no passage I can remember tonight describes casual human interaction with an angel.  

What I recall from the shepherds in the field, Luke 2:10, etc., is that the witness trembles, experiences great fear in the presence, goes face down, etc.  I haven't been in the presence of a visible angel to my knowledge (and believe it could surely happen). But I am curious about biblical support for  the casual testimony "Hey, I came into contact with an angel earlier today. It was cool. Please pass the syrup".


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