# Ezekiel 18 and salvation



## pnome (Aug 22, 2011)

Came across this and it posed a question for what I understand about Christianity:



> 3As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. 4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
> 
> 5But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, 6And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman, 7And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment; 8He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man, 9Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.



This seems to point to a works based salvation.  


Your thoughts?


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 22, 2011)

I would counter with Romans 4:

“Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Read the rest of the chapter and Galatians to see Paul explain.


----------



## Dana Young (Aug 22, 2011)

Pnome,
It does appear that way but no man can keep the law on his own. it is only thru the blood of Christ that any man can be ritgheous enough to measure up, you see our ritgheousness is as filthy rags compared to GOD's, but through the works of Christ we are made ritgheous enough to fullfill this passage in Ezekiel.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 22, 2011)

That was actually written before the concept of salvation through grace was introduced in the Bible.  Two completely different systems.


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 22, 2011)

If a man be just...is the key I believe. A just man then was no different than now. Since Abraham a just man is a person who lives by faith. Faith leads to a walk. But the walk is not the faith.


----------



## pnome (Aug 22, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> If a man be just...is the key I believe. A just man then was no different than now. Since Abraham a just man is a person who lives by faith. Faith leads to a walk. But the walk is not the faith.



So, you're saying that it is not possible to be a just person unless you're a Christian?


----------



## formula1 (Aug 22, 2011)

*Re:*



gordon 2 said:


> If a man be just...is the key I believe. A just man then was no different than now. Since Abraham a just man is a person who lives by faith. Faith leads to a walk. But the walk is not the faith.



Excellent! And so true!

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Psalm 146
5 Blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob, whose hope is in the LORD his God,
6 who made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, who keeps faith forever


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 22, 2011)

Galations 2:15 “We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles; 16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified. 17 But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! 18 For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19 For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me;


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 22, 2011)

pnome said:


> So, you're saying that it is not possible to be a just person unless you're a Christian?



Not at all. And scripture says as much. Abraham was just!

And again this often quoted item from no less a christian than Peter:

Acts 10,34-35

34And Peter opened his mouth and said: Most certianly and thoroughly I now perceive and understand that God shows no partiality and is no respecter of persons.

35But in every nation he who venerates and has reverential fear for God, treating Him with worshipful  obedience and living uprightly, is acceptable  and welcomed by Him.

Paul in Romans goes on to explain ( I encourage you to read it with an eye to faith, justice and grace), how pagans and Jews can be just---yet their being just, it is by faith in God who is just,--  and with and without their knowledge of the Law.

The Good Sameritan was shown to be just, yet counted as most likely to be lost to grace, the law, --- and lacking the "correct"  knowledge of God. Yet he went above and beyond what many christains would do in his situation and christians practice grace and operate from faith!

The idea that in a fox hole there are no unbelievers has an element of truth, especially if there is in you the esprit the corps to have the backs of those in the fox holes next to you--which can be your enemy's in some cases.


----------



## formula1 (Aug 22, 2011)

*Re:*

Luke 13:24
"Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

John 10
 1"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers." 6 This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them. 7 So Jesus again said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. 

Ever since Jesus finished His work, He is the only way to Salvation! 

In Acts 10 as a example for us, God loved Cornelius so much for His faithfulness, He made sure the message of Christ came to Him. That's the way it works for the just! God will make a way for anyone who calls upon Him to follow Christ.  

So if you are in the wilderness, on your death bed, cancer stricken, devasted by disaster, addicted, trapped, empty, lonely, blind, without hope, unloved, or even 'just' but without Christ's message, call on the name of Jesus and He will answer you!

Find Jesus, Find Peace!


----------



## Michael F. Gray (Aug 22, 2011)

Remember, : Ezekiel is an Old Testament prophet whose text was uttered long before Grace which came after Jesus Christ's sacrifice on Calvary's Cross. The text you quote goes on to talk about sins of the father, and sins of the son. It clarifies a point which was confusing under the law and Hebrew tradition. The effect of the sins of the father on succeding generations. In point of fact this text makes it clear an evil father will die for his sins. If a son of the evil father lives rightously, he will live. It brings clearly to light individual accountability.


----------



## pnome (Aug 22, 2011)

Michael F. Gray said:


> Remember, : Ezekiel is an Old Testament prophet whose text was uttered long before Grace which came after Jesus Christ's sacrifice on Calvary's Cross. The text you quote goes on to talk about sins of the father, and sins of the son. It clarifies a point which was confusing under the law and Hebrew tradition. The effect of the sins of the father on succeding generations. In point of fact this text makes it clear an evil father will die for his sins. If a son of the evil father lives rightously, he will live. It brings clearly to light individual accountability.



How does one properly discern what of the Old Testament is rendered obsolete by the New and what is not?

It seems to me rather arbitrarily decided which parts of the OT still apply and which parts no longer apply.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 22, 2011)

pnome said:


> How does one properly discern what of the Old Testament is rendered obsolete by the New and what is not?
> 
> It seems to me rather arbitrarily decided which parts of the OT still apply and which parts no longer apply.



I don't think you were asking me, but this is a topic of great interest, so I will give it a try......

There are parts of the OT which could be applied universally, such as "Don't kill, steal, cheat on your wife," etc.  Eating pork is never healthy (unless you are starving to death).  Proverbs is pretty good stuff whether you believe or not.  The NT, specifically the nature of Jesus,  is what I base my belief system on.

I am by no means a Bible scholar, but I looked up a few things (I might get clobbered over my usage of context though).... 

Jesus broke the law of the OT, and got crucified for it, but the NT does not view his actions as "sinful." There are certain scriptures which might indicate that Jesus "fulfilled" the law, and we are no longer bound by it.  This is pretty clear in Romans 6:14-15, that the law is no longer what binds people, but grace, which is why the scripture you posted earlier does not work in a contemporary Christian model.  Additional reading is Ephesians 2:15, Acts 13:38-40, 1 Cor. 10:23-33.

Jesus' character gives me peace.  I cannot prove it further than that.


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 22, 2011)

pnome said:


> How does one properly discern what of the Old Testament is rendered obsolete by the New and what is not?



Read Acts 15.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Aug 22, 2011)

The Ot regulations, and the realization of not being able to keep them is what brings us to Jesus in need of a savior


----------



## Bama4me (Aug 22, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> That was actually written before the concept of salvation through grace was introduced in the Bible.  Two completely different systems.



Don't know about that one JB... man has never been able to earn his salvation in any era of time.  Even in the OT times, there was grace... granted it wasn't grace found through Jesus Christ... but grace nontheless.  Search the term "grace" in the OT and look at several other places and I think you'll agree with me.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 22, 2011)

Bama4me said:


> Don't know about that one JB... man has never been able to earn his salvation in any era of time.  Even in the OT times, there was grace... granted it wasn't grace found through Jesus Christ... but grace nontheless.  Search the term "grace" in the OT and look at several other places and I think you'll agree with me.




Your right, but they still had to kill a goat from time to time, that's what I was getting at.


----------



## Bama4me (Aug 22, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Your right, but they still had to kill a goat from time to time, that's what I was getting at.



Yeah... glad we don't have to do that... that and travel to Jerusalem three times a year.  I can barely get a vacation in most years.


----------



## mtnwoman (Aug 22, 2011)

pnome said:


> This seems to point to a works based salvation.
> 
> 
> Your thoughts?



It does point to a works based salvation....sacrifice a perfect lamb for atonement, take your grain to the storehouse, if you have mold burn your house down, along with don't eat pork as mentioned. Those laws were for the Jews. 
Most of the 10 commandments are laws that the saved and unsaved should abide by....and if you do mind those laws still doesn't make you saved, so anyone even the unsaved can live by those laws, which today is mostly common sense anyway, it's not going to save the unsaved by doing so though.

Anyone can be a pretty good ol' boy that never does anything wrong that amounts to much, but that won't save him.

We learn about the OT, because it has so much to do with the NT, but my church would be called New Testament believers, not because we don't believe the OT, not because we don't study it. But our salvation is based on the New Testament/Covenant with God.

Hope that makes sense.


----------



## Greaserbilly (Nov 9, 2011)

> There are parts of the OT which could be applied universally, such as "Don't kill, steal, cheat on your wife," etc. Eating pork is never healthy (unless you are starving to death). Proverbs is pretty good stuff whether you believe or not. The NT, specifically the nature of Jesus, is what I base my belief system on.



I think that'd be covered by Jesus' much harder rule to follow - do unto others as you would have them do unto you.


----------



## pnome (Nov 9, 2011)

Greaserbilly said:


> I think that'd be covered by Jesus' much harder rule to follow - do unto others as you would have them do unto you.


----------



## Greaserbilly (Nov 9, 2011)

pnome said:


>



Not quite.

More like "Treat others as you would have them treat you, if you were them."


----------



## pnome (Nov 9, 2011)

greaserbilly said:


> not quite.
> 
> More like "treat others as you would have them treat you, if you were them."



just messing with ya


----------



## Greaserbilly (Nov 10, 2011)

pnome said:


> Came across this and it posed a question for what I understand about Christianity:
> 
> This seems to point to a works based salvation.



Let me be exquisitely clear.
There is no salvation in works.

And by that - there is nothing that YOU can do to bargain, wheedle, negotiate, earn, justify, or otherwise grant yourself the kingdom of God. 

And there were competing theologies that did in fact suggest this. If you paid fees to this God, had sex with that temple prostitute, if you said this prayer, if you ate this food and avoided that food, only took a certain number of steps a day, etc etc etc then you could somehow burn off evil karma points.

One of the hardest things for a lot of Christians to internalize, let alone communicate, is that the notion of Jesus Christ contains two components - Yeheshuah the pre-Easter teacher, and Christos, the post-Easter deity.

The Christ is the perfect sacrifice, the reconciling of God and mankind, the anti-Adam. American Christianity goes on a LOT about him. In fact, some have this strange variant idea that they don't have to change at all, just simply say a few words printed on the back of a little comic book, and be on their way, because of the power of the sacrifice in and of itself. Fits in with the American psychology. Fat? Take this pill. I mean, keep eating lard and all, but you'll lose 400% more weight than simply eating lard without this pill.

The teachings of Jesus, however, are much harder. Clothe the naked, feed the hungry. Rich people are too blinded by their own selfishness to see their obligations to others. Because your God has forgiven SO MUCH from you, forgive others. Because your God has given you so much, pass it on to others.

You rarely hear about this in Church. Between the notion of a "propserity gospel" and/or the reduction of the beautiful symbolism of communion by some mega churches to getting a wafer and individual soy sauce cup of grape juice taped to the bottom of your program - there's some weird twists and turns Christianity has taken.

So the notion of works?

Salvation not by works is sound. It means that you yourself cannot do anything to EARN Heaven. 

HOWEVER

It doesn't mean that a real faith should be constrained to arguing about whether Pheloponecians 9:14 or Derek 4:6 are right while some poor guy is freezing to death outside because he got foreclosed on by a bank he didn't even owe a mortgage to.

A true recognition of the sacrifice God made - coming from Heaven to live in squalor as a homeless "mekton" - which we translate sometimes as "carpenter" but is really closer to "guy who takes a log and makes it into the raw boards that a carpenter would make finished goods with" - e.g. DIRT POOR UNSKILLED LABORER - and then ending up hanging from nails from a beam, naked, missing most of the skin and a significant amount of flesh and blood from his back and legs, in agony - would be to be so thankful that one would clothe the naked as he asked, visit the lonely as he asked, feed the hungry as he asked.

Not to walk up to the Pearly Gates haughtily with a list of one's good deeds - "and on Sunday the 14th, 1974, I gave FIFTY WHOLE DOLLARS to the Salvation Army. AND I went to Church. That HAS to count for something."


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 10, 2011)

Excellent post.



Greaserbilly said:


> Let me be exquisitely clear.
> There is no salvation in works.
> 
> And by that - there is nothing that YOU can do to bargain, wheedle, negotiate, earn, justify, or otherwise grant yourself the kingdom of God.
> ...


----------



## jmharris23 (Nov 10, 2011)

Pnome.....has any of this helped? I am just curious?


----------



## gtparts (Nov 10, 2011)

Grace predates creation, folks, because that is His nature. God IS grace! God placed Adam in His garden. Grace. God gave Adam a companion. Grace. When Adam and Eve broke God's law, He expelled them from the garden, but did not take their physical life (at that time). Grace. God clothed their shame with the first sacrifice of blood. Grace.

The point of the Law is to show us our unrighteousness and our need of a Redeemer. Ezzy is just illustrating the extent of our short comings. No one could be justified by their own righteousness. Justification can only be imputed to us through His righteousness. Our righteousness, the absolute best we can do, simply will never be enough for God to declare us righteous by His standard (perfect and holy). 
Some would say that before Christ, the only way to heaven was works, i.e., obeying the law. Paul tells us that is not, nor ever was the case. Read Romans 4 (post #2, thanks, cf). 

Grace, through Christ, makes provision so that Ezekiel 18:4 remains absolutely true; "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." and, yet we can be saved, reconciled to God.

The passage that Pnome posted sustains grace, not works.


----------



## pnome (Nov 10, 2011)

jmharris23 said:


> Pnome.....has any of this helped? I am just curious?



You guys have certainly answered my original question.  Very well.

But I still struggle with the idea of a singularly exclusive,  faith based salvation. If there is such a thing as salvation from death at all, I would suppose that it is either something we all get regardless of anything that happens in this cosmically insignificant and brief life or it is somehow works based.


----------



## Greaserbilly (Nov 10, 2011)

I hear ya, pnome. I struggled with that a very, VERY long time.


----------



## ryanh487 (Nov 17, 2011)

Read the book of James. Faith is an action, not a feeling. If we have TRUE faith, it reflects in our lives. If we have faith in God, and that He is in control and His way is best, we will live our lives according to His will. If we are not living according to His moral will for our lives, regardless of what we think or feel we are not having faith. Simply acknowledging that God is the only God and Jesus is His son is not enough--even Satan and his fallen angels believe this. Christ seeks "doers of the law, not just hearers".


----------

