# Athiest are bullies



## SemperFiDawg (Mar 20, 2018)

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018...-best-to-intimidate-rest-us-into-silence.html

Regardless of how you feel about some of the authors claims (and I have some reservations), I can honestly say this is how most Christians feel about the atheist.


----------



## PappyHoel (Mar 20, 2018)

My last 2 bosses have been atheists.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 20, 2018)

Oh please..
Religions, in this case Christianity, has dominated and exerted its power on ALL of society since like forever and now that society has taken some small steps on keeping that power and dominance in check...... all the atheists are big bad bullies waaaaaahhhhhh.
If that's how most Christians feel about it then most Christians are insecure little whiney babies.
Atheist death connection? This kind of nonsense just makes you guys look foolish.
God supposedly wiped out an entire world besides a few lucky winning ticket holders and then you want to spit out ridiculous numbers of how many people Atheism has killed.
This kind of nonsense doesn't do Christians any favors and its exactly that line of thinking that society is now guarding against.


----------



## welderguy (Mar 20, 2018)




----------



## drippin' rock (Mar 20, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Oh please..
> Religions, in this case Christianity, has dominated and exerted its power on ALL of society since like forever and now that society has taken some small steps on keeping that power and dominance in check...... all the atheists are big bad bullies waaaaaahhhhhh.
> If that's how most Christians feel about it then most Christians are insecure little whiney babies.
> Atheist death connection? This kind of nonsense just makes you guys look foolish.
> ...



Once again you've expressed what I was thinking, so I'll just add that outspoken atheists are as annoying as outspoken Christians.  

I always chuckle though when I read or hear about Christian persecution(in America).  

non-believer:  I don't agree with you.  I don't think there is a god.

Christian:  Stop!  I'm being oppressed!


----------



## formula1 (Mar 20, 2018)

*re:*

Perhaps I've run across a few atheists that might be considered bullies but for the most part they are decent folks.  

I tend to look at atheists in this way -- in need of Christ but not able to stretch themselves beyond reason in into faith.  Even as a believer I know that leap can be difficult for some.  You couple that their view of our Christian hypocrisy and it adds fuel in their minds to stick to  their reasoned approach!  Yet if we are human, we are all hypocritical in one way or another.  The obviously broken condition of man is exactly what Christ came to heal!

Look, if I believe Christ is my Savior and through that belief I am restored to right relationship with God, and if that belief provides me eternal life thru God's promise, I don't want to keep that truth but want the same for everyone!  I did not change my hypocrisy by coming to Christ, only that He took it upon Him so that it would no longer rule me.  It is impossible for me to convince you though!  It's a journey you have to choose to take or not take!  I simply hope you will at some point in your life!

Wish everyone here only the best and may you experience God in a real way!!! Someday!!!


----------



## oldfella1962 (Mar 20, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Oh please..
> Religions, in this case Christianity, has dominated and exerted its power on ALL of society since like forever and now that society has taken some small steps on keeping that power and dominance in check...... all the atheists are big bad bullies waaaaaahhhhhh.
> If that's how most Christians feel about it then most Christians are insecure little whiney babies.
> Atheist death connection? This kind of nonsense just makes you guys look foolish.
> ...



yeah wiping out 99.9 percent of the world before the first commercial break pretty much sets the standard for "bullying" does it not? 
But wait it gets better - eternal torture in unending fire takes it to the next level.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Mar 20, 2018)

do you not think the writer has any valid points in his article?


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 20, 2018)

NE GA Pappy said:


> do you not think the writer has any valid points in his article?


Any valid points get lost in the other 99% of excrement.
These writers are Christians enemies not Atheists.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Mar 20, 2018)

I think its a case of the squeaky wheel that gets the oil in that for Christians it's the protesting counter-cultural atheist that forms their stereotype of the whole lot.  If you're an atheist, it's the hypocritical co-worker or the televangelist caught in a scandal that forms your stereotype. There are militant atheist (Richard Dawkins and his group come to mind),  and militant Christians (could name several in my church), but I don't find they represent the majority of their belief.  In fact, I think one would be hard pressed to identify a self identifying Christian in name only(CINOs) and a secular non-believer by their actions, if one was not told.  A Christian that lives out his walk with Christ doesn't have to tell anyone.  His behavior makes him "different".  If it doesn't, .....

As to the philosophical points in the article I find them valid, but do not agree that his portrait represents the body of athiest, only the boisterous ones.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 20, 2018)

I do know some atheist that are as described in the article. And, I know some Christians that are snobby and arrogant too. ( I’m speaking personally and not anyone on this forum)


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 20, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I do know some atheist that are as described in the article. And, I know some Christians that are snobby and arrogant too. ( I’m speaking personally and not anyone on this forum)


Of course!
People are people whether Christian or Atheist or Buddhist or.... Some are snobby, some are arrogant, some are bullies, some are left handed, some have blue eyes, or are tall or short or............
Its these type of writers, whether they be Christian or Atheist that are INTENTIONALLY deceiving their readers to believe that the extremes represent the majorities and its just a lie.


----------



## ky55 (Mar 20, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Its these type of writers, whether they be Christian or Atheist that are INTENTIONALLY deceiving their readers to believe that the extremes represent the majorities and its just a lie.



They have to do something to try and slow the tide.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Mar 20, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Any valid points get lost in the other 99% of excrement.
> These writers are Christians enemies not Atheists.



so I take that as a complete dismissal of his points, even though you know that there are atheist out there who do those things and validate to some degree his points????


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 20, 2018)

NE GA Pappy said:


> so I take that as a complete dismissal of his points, even though you know that there are atheist out there who do those things and validate to some degree his points????


He invalidates his own points right from the get go -


> Today's atheists are bullies -- and they are doing their best to intimidate the rest of us into silence.


That's a blanket statement that any thinking person knows is false.
His points are just as valid as if I said "Westboro Baptist represents the Christians of today".
Westboro Baptists are Christians and its today but that doesn't make my blanket statement anything other than  a pile of crap.
If you intentionally start out with a pile of crap you invalidate the rest of what you have to say even if you sprinkle in a half truth here and there.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Mar 20, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> He invalidates his own points right from the get go -
> 
> That's a blanket statement that any thinking person knows is false.
> His points are just as valid as if I said "Westboro Baptist represents the Christians of today".
> ...




OK...  so you don't want to converse about his valid points.  I get it.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 20, 2018)

NE GA Pappy said:


> so I take that as a complete dismissal of his points, even though you know that there are atheist out there who do those things and validate to some degree his points????



Yes, there are some atheists who are obnoxious bullies. There was also the Spanish inquisition, the Salem witch trials, Islamic jihadism, the Hindu genocide of Sikhs, etc. Atheism certainly doesn't have a corner on the you-will-conform bully market.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 20, 2018)

I know a few arrogant Atheist, homosexuals, and Republicans. I also know some nice Yankees, Democrats, and Christians.

I don't see Atheism in the light the report says. If one considers how society has viewed their lack of non-belief, compare that to the Blacks in the sixties. Were they uppity because they were oppressed and wanted equal rights? 
Even now there are some that just stir the pot on equal rights. You do have people who go to an extreme. Maybe it helps the rest of us see a balance.
There has to always be some in the minority groups that bring attention to their cause. Some do go overboard and others look at it as them having an "agenda."

Maybe some of what the link suggests could be looked at if we reversed the word Atheist for Christian. If one was a Christian being the minority in a country of Atheist.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 20, 2018)

I was halfway seeing some of the points such as nations of Atheist killing a lot more people than Christian nations when I read this;

"Atheists don’t believe in God, so they don’t believe in any transcendent, objective moral law. Nor do they believe that human beings are made in the image of God, and so they don’t believe humans possess infinite value and dignity."

The writer is assuming that Atheist don't have any morals and see no value in human life. Then using this as a reason why they kill so many folks and are arrogant.

He lost his credibility.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 20, 2018)

Was thinking about the Native Americans before the white man showed up. Could he get his morality from believing in a Pagan God?
I don't think they saw themselves as being made in the image of God yet they knew humans has value and dignity.

Some Native Americans lived in harmony with  nature, were generous,  devoted,  unselfish,  innocent,  unable  to  lie, courageous, and in good physical form. 

There are people of other religions that do not believe they are made in the image of God but still believe humans possess  infinite value and dignity.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 20, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Of course!
> People are people whether Christian or Atheist or Buddhist or.... Some are snobby, some are arrogant, some are bullies, some are left handed, some have blue eyes, or are tall or short or............
> Its these type of writers, whether they be Christian or Atheist that are INTENTIONALLY deceiving their readers to believe that the extremes represent the majorities and its just a lie.



I agree with ya here.


----------



## j_seph (Mar 20, 2018)

Guess what I cannot comprehend is that for years, even before most of us were born their was prayer in our schools and religion was taught to some degree. Violence from what I have seen was less, morals were better as was respect for authority from God on down.  From what I have read is the Atheist is what got this removed from our schools, at least it seems they were the 1st snowflake to make the snowball that went to rolling. Scenario, is this why not allow prayer in school? Are atheist that bothered by hearing prayer going out to something they believe does not exist? No one held their hands where they could not stick their fingers in their ears. No one made them bow their heads. Yet we are told we cannot do this. If God doesn't exist then why should Atheist worry about it? Stand back, mock us, chuckle, laugh but why try to invade our beliefs to make us do what y'all do?


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 20, 2018)

NE GA Pappy said:


> OK...  so you don't want to converse about his valid points.  I get it.


Sure I will. What points to do you find valid?


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Mar 20, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Sure I will. What points to do you find valid?



that is what I asked you.  There is quite a bit of truth in what he posted up about the way people are feeling today. The radical element of the atheist who want to tear down a cross at a military grave yard that has been there for over 70 years is an example of the antagonistic behaviors.   What does it hurt for a cross to be on a grave?


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 20, 2018)

j_seph said:


> Guess what I cannot comprehend is that for years, even before most of us were born their was prayer in our schools and religion was taught to some degree. Violence from what I have seen was less, morals were better as was respect for authority from God on down.  From what I have read is the Atheist is what got this removed from our schools, at least it seems they were the 1st snowflake to make the snowball that went to rolling. Scenario, is this why not allow prayer in school? Are atheist that bothered by hearing prayer going out to something they believe does not exist? No one held their hands where they could not stick their fingers in their ears. No one made them bow their heads. Yet we are told we cannot do this. If God doesn't exist then why should Atheist worry about it? Stand back, mock us, chuckle, laugh but why try to invade our beliefs to make us do what y'all do?


First, Atheists are a tiny part of society numbers wise.
They don't have the power to make anybody do or not do anything. 
Prayer was taken out of the public schools by the Supreme Court who decided it was a violation of the 1st  Amendment because it represented the establishment of religion.


> Yet we are told we cannot do this.


You were told you cant do it in a public school because of the above reason.
You can freely practice and promote YOUR religion at home, your church,, enroll your kids in a Christian school... anywhere you want to that doesn't violate other people's rights.
Its just that simple.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 20, 2018)

j_seph said:


> Guess what I cannot comprehend is that for years, even before most of us were born their was prayer in our schools and religion was taught to some degree. Violence from what I have seen was less, morals were better as was respect for authority from God on down.  From what I have read is the Atheist is what got this removed from our schools, at least it seems they were the 1st snowflake to make the snowball that went to rolling. Scenario, is this why not allow prayer in school? Are atheist that bothered by hearing prayer going out to something they believe does not exist? No one held their hands where they could not stick their fingers in their ears. No one made them bow their heads. Yet we are told we cannot do this. If God doesn't exist then why should Atheist worry about it? Stand back, mock us, chuckle, laugh but why try to invade our beliefs to make us do what y'all do?



Because they say we are forcing our beliefs on them in a nut shell. But to your point, the removal of everything with some sort of standard and family value to no standard at all was a pitfall and we are seeing the results of that today. You do remember that Christianity is viewed as immoral?? Now how’s the non believers no standard working out for us.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Mar 20, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Prayer was taken out of the public schools by the Supreme Court who decided it was a violation of the 1st  Amendment because it represented the establishment of religion.



which was an incorrect decision.  Practice of your religion on state property is not the state establishing a religion. 
Establishing a state religion would be the gooberment saying everyone had to be a Methodist, or Baptist, or Muslim. The state is suppose to be neutral on religion. Establishment is not some poor slob wanting to pray over lunch with his classmates or students.

If a muslim wanted to offer a prayer up in a school setting, so what?  If the coach wants to pray before a ball game, who does it hurt?

After all, if God doesn't exist, then why does it matter if we pray on public property?  According to atheist, it would be like thanking Santa Claus for your Christmas present.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 20, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> First, Atheists are a tiny part of society numbers wise.
> They don't have the power to make anybody do or not do anything.
> Prayer was taken out of the public schools by the Supreme Court who decided it was a violation of the 1st  Amendment because it represented the establishment of religion.
> 
> ...


I think it’s fair to say that it was pushed by atheist and I don’t remember anyone being forced to participate. Yet today we see a lot 1st Amendments being practiced that others have that same option to not participate in prayer. 

It would be interesting to see if the same atheist that felt so constitutional about prayer in school still feel the same way about other 1st Amendment activities allowed in public schools.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 20, 2018)

NE GA Pappy said:


> that is what I asked you.  There is quite a bit of truth in what he posted up about the way people are feeling today. The radical element of the atheist who want to tear down a cross at a military grave yard that has been there for over 70 years is an example of the antagonistic behaviors.   What does it hurt for a cross to be on a grave?


Ive got to point out that you are talking about -


> The radical element of the atheist


And he is talking about -


> And that’s exactly what modern-day atheists are


You know his blanket statement is nonsense, that's why you are changing it to "the radical element".

There are radical Atheists.
There are radical Christians.
There are radical vegetarians.
There are radical baseball fans.
There are radical NASCAR fans
There are......

Its not the validity of the points that matters its what the valid points are used to conclude.
Its a valid point that cake is fattening.
To use that valid point to then say all people who eat cake are fat makes that valid point worth nothing.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 20, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I think it’s fair to say that it was pushed by atheist and I don’t remember anyone being forced to participate. Yet today we see a lot 1st Amendments being practiced that others have that same option to not participate in prayer.
> 
> It would be interesting to see if the same atheist that felt so constitutional about prayer in school still feel the same way about other 1st Amendment activities allowed in public schools.


Your beef should be with the writers of the 1st amendment.
Atheists didn't write it they are just smart enough to use it.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 20, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Because they say we are forcing our beliefs on them in a nut shell. But to your point, the removal of everything with some sort of standard and family value to no standard at all was a pitfall and we are seeing the results of that today. You do remember that Christianity is viewed as immoral?? Now how’s the non believers no standard working out for us.


You might want to check the statistics for Christians when it comes to divorce rates, infidelity, broken families, spousal abuse, incarceration rates, teen pregnancies......
Then explain how those statistics were caused by Atheism.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 20, 2018)

NE GA Pappy said:


> that is what I asked you.  There is quite a bit of truth in what he posted up about the way people are feeling today. The radical element of the atheist who want to tear down a cross at a military grave yard that has been there for over 70 years is an example of the antagonistic behaviors.   What does it hurt for a cross to be on a grave?



A cross on a grave doesn't bother a thing, and it should be there if the person in that grave was a Christian. I'm not religious in the usual Christian sense, but I very much respect your religion. Don't confuse atheism with anti-religious activism. I see no sense in these folks that go around trying to eliminate any trace of religion. They are not helping anything, they are just more snowflake idiots looking for something to be offended by.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 20, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> I was halfway seeing some of the points such as nations of Atheist killing a lot more people than Christian nations when I read this;
> 
> "Atheists don’t believe in God, so they don’t believe in any transcendent, objective moral law. Nor do they believe that human beings are made in the image of God, and so they don’t believe humans possess infinite value and dignity."
> 
> ...





Artfuldodger said:


> Was thinking about the Native Americans before the white man showed up. Could he get his morality from believing in a Pagan God?
> I don't think they saw themselves as being made in the image of God yet they knew humans has value and dignity.
> 
> Some Native Americans lived in harmony with  nature, were generous,  devoted,  unselfish,  innocent,  unable  to  lie, courageous, and in good physical form.
> ...



This. Morality didn't originate with Christianity. You don't have to be religious at all to have a well-developed sense of morals. As for the Indian thing, I would guess that the average Native American was much more true to his religion than the average Christian settler, who used his religion as a free moral pass to kill the "heathen" Indian and take his land. 

A quote fron the Cherokee leader, Yonaguska (Drowning Bear) comes to mind. A missionary came to attempt to convert his people to Christianity. Yonaguska asked a lot of questions about his religion, then asked to see the Bible, Then he sat down and had someone who spoke and read English to read the whole thing to him from beginning to end. When he finished, he said that it seemed like a good book, and he was very surprised that the white people weren't much better people than they were after having had it so long.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 20, 2018)

NE GA Pappy said:


> which was an incorrect decision.  Practice of your religion on state property is not the state establishing a religion.
> Establishing a state religion would be the gooberment saying everyone had to be a Methodist, or Baptist, or Muslim. The state is suppose to be neutral on religion. Establishment is not some poor slob wanting to pray over lunch with his classmates or students.
> 
> If a muslim wanted to offer a prayer up in a school setting, so what?  If the coach wants to pray before a ball game, who does it hurt?
> ...





> which was an incorrect decision.


It was a decision that was NOT made by Atheists.


> The state is suppose to be neutral on religion.


The only neutral position is to not allow any of them.


> Establishment is not some poor slob wanting to pray over lunch with his classmates or students.


I lean toward agreeing with that. Personally, I couldn't care less if the Christian or Muslim or..... kids want to on their own bow their head and say a prayer before they eat.
Its when the school carves out a specific time devoted to a specific religion(s) that changes the whole ball game.
That is not neutral. That is formally promoting a religion(s).


----------



## red neck richie (Mar 20, 2018)

NE GA Pappy said:


> which was an incorrect decision.  Practice of your religion on state property is not the state establishing a religion.
> Establishing a state religion would be the gooberment saying everyone had to be a Methodist, or Baptist, or Muslim. The state is suppose to be neutral on religion. Establishment is not some poor slob wanting to pray over lunch with his classmates or students.
> 
> If a muslim wanted to offer a prayer up in a school setting, so what?  If the coach wants to pray before a ball game, who does it hurt?
> ...



I agree pappy. We always said the Lords prayer before every game when I played sports in school and no one had a problem with it. We had Christmas parties in school as well. We actually called it Christmas break not winter holiday like it is now. I don't get why they are so offended by us. I'm not offended by them. Some schools don't even say the Pledge anymore. One nation under God is too offensive for them. Give me a break.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Mar 20, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> I was halfway seeing some of the points such as nations of Atheist killing a lot more people than Christian nations when I read this;
> 
> "Atheists don’t believe in God, so they don’t believe in any transcendent, objective moral law. Nor do they believe that human beings are made in the image of God, and so they don’t believe humans possess infinite value and dignity."
> 
> ...



That’s not the conclusion he drew.  This is: “and so they don’t believe humans possess infinite value and dignity.”

Big difference, but you knew that before you intentionally mis-quoted the author.  If not, why change it?  Guess who else has no credibility?


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 20, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> You might want to check the statistics for Christians when it comes to divorce rates, infidelity, broken families, spousal abuse, incarceration rates, teen pregnancies......
> Then explain how those statistics were caused by Atheism.



It’s the little foxes that spoil the vine

In order to do that you’d need to weed out those that claim Christianity and those that actually live it. 

Even you can see that every generation is getting worse and I will go out on a limb due to lack of “facts” and call it coincidence that the more we remove a Godly standard from our family and society the worse it gets.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 20, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Your beef should be with the writers of the 1st amendment.
> Atheists didn't write it they are just smart enough to use it.



The writers are not the problem, the same way they’re not the problem with the 2 A. But with a corrupt liberal govt that has pockets filled by lobbyists, I guess it’s a toss on how they rule. 

People praying has never violated an atheists rights unless the atheist was forced to pray or prevented from praying, none of which happened. I lean more to a Supreme Court that ruled in ignorance.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 20, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> It’s the little foxes that spoil the vine
> 
> In order to do that you’d need to weed out those that claim Christianity and those that actually live it.
> 
> Even you can see that every generation is getting worse and I will go out on a limb due to lack of “facts” and call it coincidence that the more we remove a Godly standard from our family and society the worse it gets.





> In order to do that you’d need to weed out those that claim Christianity and those that actually live it.


I would have bet my last nickel you would say that ^. 
I even said to myself " I bet he responds with the who is a real Christian and who isn't thing".
Its a really bad argument. You guys should really quit using it.


> I will go out on a limb due to lack of “facts” and call it coincidence that the more we remove a Godly standard from our family and society the worse it gets.


That's why I told you to check the statistics for Christians.
You will find that Christians, who HAVE NOT removed a Godly standard from their lives, are taking part in "the worse it gets" at the same rate as non-Christians.
Thems the facts and they break the limb you are out there on 


> society the worse it gets.


There are a whole lot of people who would argue that "society" is much better now not worse.
No society will ever be perfect.
Society is comprised of a bunch of people with completely different ideas of what perfect is.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 20, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> The writers are not the problem, the same way they’re not the problem with the 2 A. But with a corrupt liberal govt that has pockets filled by lobbyists, I guess it’s a toss on how they rule.
> 
> People praying has never violated an atheists rights unless the atheist was forced to pray or prevented from praying, none of which happened. I lean more to a Supreme Court that ruled in ignorance.





> People praying has never violated an atheists rights unless the atheist was forced to pray or prevented from praying, none of which happened.


Forget "an Atheists rights" for a second.
Focus on this -


> Prayer was taken out of the public schools by the Supreme Court who decided it was a violation of the 1st Amendment because it represented the establishment of religion.


They didn't vote "for" Atheists rights. They didn't vote "against" Christian's rights.
They voted on the intent of the 1st Amendment.
You can agree or disagree but Atheists didn't have squat to do with what they decided.


----------



## matt79brown (Mar 20, 2018)

Once knew an Atheist that grew some real good smoke. Often wondered what his secret was.


----------



## matt79brown (Mar 20, 2018)

When you click on a link to Fox News and take it serious it's your fault.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 20, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> That’s not the conclusion he drew.  This is: “and so they don’t believe humans possess infinite value and dignity.”
> 
> Big difference, but you knew that before you intentionally mis-quoted the author.  If not, why change it?  Guess who else has no credibility?



OK, I'll give you that I left off the word "infinite" but added it in the next post;
"There are people of other religions that do not believe they are made in the image of God but still believe humans possess infinite value and dignity."

The key word being "infinite." The author believes atheist don't believe humans have any "infinite" value and dignity.

Any ideas on why the author added this? Do you think the author was insinuating that since Atheist don't believe humans have any "infinite" value and dignity, that _____? What conclusion did the author draw? 
What was he leading up to by saying that Atheist don't believe humans have any "infinite" value or dignity?

Here is the quote from the author;
"And it makes perfect sense, doesn’t it? Atheists don’t believe in God, so they don’t believe in any transcendent, objective moral law. Nor do they believe that human beings are made in the image of God, and so they don’t believe humans possess infinite value and dignity. When you put these two beliefs together, you have a deadly recipe that makes killing “problematic” human beings quite easy and defensible."

Would you put the believers of other religions in the same category of Atheist that don't believe humans are made in the image of God? Hindus? Buddhists? Early Native Americans? 
Would they also be a part of that deadly recipe the author is painting?

I did use the word  "transcendent" in relation to morals. Wonder why the author used that term in relation to morals as well as "infinite" in relation to human's value and dignity?

Do you believe that having "transcendent" morals or a belief in humans having "infinite" value and dignity is possible from a believer in a Pagan or false Gods?

Just wondering if you see any difference in a Pagan God believer vs an Atheist in relation to  "transcendent" morals or humans having "infinite" value and dignity? 
Not really the belief but the outcome of that belief as it affects how that person acts in the here and now.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 20, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I would have bet my last nickel you would say that ^.
> I even said to myself " I bet he responds with the who is a real Christian and who isn't thing".
> Its a really bad argument. You guys should really quit using it.
> 
> ...


Lol I still had to go there. But it’s still true. You know a lot of people claim to be Christian, that doesn’t mean they live it. I’m aware that statistics show that as a society in a whole is getting worse. I thought you were aiming at it being more in a Christian home. Depends on what they call better, I struggle with men in women’s restrooms, rioting in the streets trashing businesses and disrespecting veterans and law enforcement as better. We’ve gone from Little House on the Prairie to the Purge, hard to see that as better.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 20, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Forget "an Atheists rights" for a second.
> Focus on this -
> 
> They didn't vote "for" Atheists rights. They didn't vote "against" Christian's rights.
> ...


 I’m going back to O”Hair.......the little foxes that spoil the vine.....


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 20, 2018)

In relation to religion in school, most of my elementary school teachers had pianos in the classroom and we would sing Christian hymns, pray, and even tell Bible stories, etc. 
I think the cool thing about it then was we were all  the kids of White Anglo Saxon Protestants. There was an occasional beef with a preacher that didn't agree with the Cakewalk at the Halloween carnival as it involved gambling.

I'm not so sure I would want my children exposed to the same school religious indoctrination that I was if their modern teacher was Muslim or Hindu.
I mean can you imagine your kid coming home and saying they all prayed to Allah? It's a different world than when I was in school with all those WASP'S.

I would say that we were all the kids of Conservative, Christian, Right-Wing Republican, Straight, White people but most of our parents were Democrats back then.


----------



## matt79brown (Mar 20, 2018)

Please don't connect my Lord to republican's, right-wingers, or white people. And please don't connect Fox News with the truth. The Lord didn't try to push His commandments off on the people by use of the government nor should we. God made man a free moral agent. Who am I to take that away?


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Mar 20, 2018)

matt79brown said:


> God made man a free moral agent. Who am I to take that away?



that comment is completely confusing.  How in any way can you take away the ability to choose away from anyone?


----------



## matt79brown (Mar 20, 2018)

The choice can not be taken away. But the options. If I leave you with only 1 choice, did you choose?


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 20, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> I would say that we were all the kids of Conservative, Christian, Right-Wing Republican, Straight, White people but most of our parents were Democrats back then.



I’m wasn’t around in the 60’s but I know my Grandparents voted Democrat until Nixon. They always said years ago that the Democratic party was for the working man.


----------



## matt79brown (Mar 20, 2018)

The Union is for the workin' man.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 20, 2018)

matt79brown said:


> The Union is for the workin' man.



Not in the South


----------



## matt79brown (Mar 20, 2018)

Yea we down here in them ''right to work for less'' states.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 20, 2018)

matt79brown said:


> Yea we down here in them ''right to work for less'' states.





matt79brown said:


> The choice can not be taken away. But the options. If I leave you with only 1 choice, did you choose?



Did you have a choice and which choice did you choose?


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 20, 2018)

I choose the Southern laid back lifestyle over anything the north has to offer.


----------



## matt79brown (Mar 20, 2018)

I choose Jesus. The One in the bible. Ever done any work in the mid-west?


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 20, 2018)

matt79brown said:


> I choose Jesus. The One in the bible. Ever done any work in the mid-west?



I’m with ya on Jesus. Yes I’ve spent my share of time in and out of Oklahoma, Kansas and Texas, but through a Georgia based company. 

Georgia is my home, always will be. Not enough money out there for me to be away from my family here. My area now is South GA and Alabama.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Mar 20, 2018)

matt79brown said:


> The choice can not be taken away. But the options. If I leave you with only 1 choice, did you choose?



how can you take any of my options for my choice away?


----------



## matt79brown (Mar 20, 2018)

by only giving you one option. Henry Ford said in reference to his model A '' you can have any color you want as long as it's black.'' Is this not what happens when government is run by religion?


----------



## matt79brown (Mar 20, 2018)

Yes Pappy the choice is ultimately ours. No one can take it away.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 20, 2018)

matt79brown said:


> by only giving you one option. Henry Ford said in reference to his model A '' you can have any color you want as long as it's black.'' Is this not what happens when government is run by religion?



Do you see Christianity as maybe being two different things? One being government Christianity and the other being religious Christianity?

Maybe the government Christianity group being bigger than the actual religious Christian group. Perhaps some in the religious Christian group don't even belong to the government Christian group.
Maybe the government group consist of individuals that follow the conservative values of Christianity but don't necessarily follow the religious part of Christianity. 
Perhaps many are CINO's.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 21, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I choose the Southern laid back lifestyle over anything the north has to offer.


There are LOTS of places up north that have the exact same laid back Southern lifestyle. You couldn't tell the difference between a good 'ol northern boy and good 'ol southern boy until they talked and heard their accents.
Although the good ol' northern boy has to freeze his butt off fishing through a hole in the ice 6 months out of the year while the good 'ol southern boys are kicked back in the jon boat soaking up some warm sun and drowning minnows 
Get up in the mountains of New Hampshire, Maine and even upstate New York and there is a lot of sho 'nuff northern "rednecks".


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 21, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> There are LOTS of places up north that have the exact same laid back Southern lifestyle. You couldn't tell the difference between a good 'ol northern boy and good 'ol southern boy until they talked and heard their accents.
> Although the good ol' northern boy has to freeze his butt off fishing through a hole in the ice 6 months out of the year while the good 'ol southern boys are kicked back in the jon boat soaking up some warm sun and drowning minnows
> Get up in the mountains of New Hampshire, Maine and even upstate New York and there is a lot of sho 'nuff northern "rednecks".



True!! I should have made it clear that it’s not the people, it’s the weather.

I will never forget the first time I went to Illinois. I stopped in Peoria at a Arby’s. Was told “man they ain’t going to understand a word we say” I ordered two sandwiches and they got the manager on the phone trying to figure out how to sell me lettuce. I walked over to the window and pointed at the picture on the window and said I want that. 

Fished somewhere in Iowa and I was on the front of the boat. I told the fella to “thow up under that tree” The Iowa fella said “I have bags for regurgitation” I was confused and said I ain’t sick. He asked about throwing up under a tree. I pointed and said throw ya pole under that limb. He got it then, he corrected me and said that’s “cast your line” And I forgot what Bream was there but he didn’t call it a Bream. 

Lol it’s definitely a language barrier. I’ve got a deep southern draw. But good people to hang out with.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Mar 21, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I would have bet my last nickel you would say that ^.
> I even said to myself " I bet he responds with the who is a real Christian and who isn't thing".
> Its a really bad argument. You guys should really quit using it.
> 
> That's why I told you to check the statistics



Walt.   That's a poorly thought out response.  To counter, show me one person who truly believes life has infinite worth and infinite dignity because we are made in the image of God, who has committed a heinous crime against another........just one.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Mar 21, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> A cross on a grave doesn't bother a thing, and it should be there if the person in that grave was a Christian. I'm not religious in the usual Christian sense, but I very much respect your religion. Don't confuse atheism with anti-religious activism. I see no sense in these folks that go around trying to eliminate any trace of religion. They are not helping anything, they are just more snowflake idiots looking for something to be offended by.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Mar 21, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> This. Morality didn't originate with Christianity. You don't have to be religious at all to have a well-developed sense of morals. As for the Indian thing, I would guess that the average Native American was much more true to his religion than the average Christian settler, who used his religion as a free moral pass to kill the "heathen" Indian and take his land.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Mar 21, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> The only neutral position is to not allow any of them.



Really?  Is that freedom or is freedom to allow all of them.  Is that not neutral?


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Mar 21, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> Yes, there are some atheists who are obnoxious bullies. There was also the Spanish inquisition, the Salem witch trials, Islamic jihadism, the Hindu genocide of Sikhs, etc. Atheism certainly doesn't have a corner on the you-will-conform bully market.



There are bullies in all walks of life. Why did the OP single out one sector? I've known plenty of "Christian" bullies who would rather bludgeon a person into never wanting to be associated with an religion via their misunderstandings of scripture vs. actually following the great commission and greatest of all commandments. 

Seems like a bit of trolling going on here just to get a rise.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 21, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Walt.   That's a poorly thought out response.  To counter, show me one person who truly believes life has infinite worth and infinite dignity because we are made in the image of God, who has committed a heinous crime against another........just one.


People have been killing people in the name of their "god"
for a pretty long time.
Does not the Bible not only condone but in fact instruct killing for certain "offenses"? 
Either life has infinite worth and infinite dignity or it doesn't.
You are grasping onto a concept that sounds noble and honorable but has no basis in fact.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 21, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Really?  Is that freedom or is freedom to allow all of them.  Is that not neutral?





> Prayer was taken out of the public schools by the Supreme Court who decided it was a violation of the 1st Amendment because it represented the establishment of religion.


Neutral is not allowing any of them.
Allowing one, some or all is the establishment of religion.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Mar 21, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Neutral is not allowing any of them.
> Allowing one, some or all is the establishment of religion.



Not to mention, Prayer was not removed from public schools, only from being lead by employees of public schools. Students are still free to practice their religions. 

The fact that they don't speaks more to their environment at home than anything the SCOTUS ruled.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 21, 2018)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> There are bullies in all walks of life. Why did the OP single out one sector? I've known plenty of "Christian" bullies who would rather bludgeon a person into never wanting to be associated with an religion via their misunderstandings of scripture vs. actually following the great commission and greatest of all commandments.
> 
> Seems like a bit of trolling going on here just to get a rise.


That's why I have a problem with these type of writers who peddle this nonsense. In this case it was a Christian writer.
He is assuming/thinks/believes that you, the intended reader (other Christians), are literally too stupid to recognize exactly the type of things you and some of the other Christians here have pointed out.
And yes, the same can be said about some Atheist writers. Some of those writers I cant read but a sentence or two without coming to the conclusion that "this guy truly thinks I'm an idiot if he thinks I'm going to blindly swallow this nonsense he is peddling".


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 21, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Correct.  That would be a guess.  The Indians were constantly warring with each other with one tribe or group displacing another.  What belief did they have that validated this?  History is rife with examples of conquests.  It's not like the European Christians had a corner on the market.  Also, why lay this at the feet of religion at all?  Was the westward expansion driven by financial motives or religious motives?  I think we all know the answer to that one.



The Israelites were doing the same thing in the middle east, following their beliefs that validated it. 

And of course, westward expansion was driven by financial motives. But religion was very much used to validate it. The whole process was justified in the minds of those doing it by the fact that the people they were killing and displacing weren't Christians, but "heathen savages." Plenty of historical writings from that period to back that up, too.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Mar 21, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> That's why I have a problem with these type of writers who peddle this nonsense. In this case it was a Christian writer.
> He is assuming/thinks/believes that you, the intended reader (other Christians), are literally too stupid to recognize exactly the type of things you and some of the other Christians here have pointed out.
> And yes, the same can be said about some Atheist writers. Some of those writers I cant read but a sentence or two without coming to the conclusion that "this guy truly thinks I'm an idiot if he thinks I'm going to blindly swallow this nonsense he is peddling".


I believe what was lost with the removal of Staff lead prayer in schools is a moral foundation among our student body that was reinforced in every facet of their lives. That being said, if that moral foundation of mutual respect and honor among humans isn't present in the home, then impressing it upon the kids in school would have little effect to the positive. Where the differential crux lies is with the judicial restrictions in school, where discipline is not allowed to be enforced even to the point of self defense for teachers against unruly or violent students. This society has become blindly sue happy and little Johnny's crack head mom sees a means for an easy buck via an ambulance chasing attorney instead of a morally right path of someone keeping her thug kid on the right track. 

We have become a society of parents in denial, where it is easier to blame everyone else for our childs failures instead of accepting the responsibility for where it lies and should begin. In the home.


----------



## ky55 (Mar 21, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> The Israelites were doing the same thing in the middle east, following their beliefs that validated it.
> 
> And of course, westward expansion was driven by financial motives. But religion was very much used to validate it. The whole process was justified in the minds of those doing it by the fact that the people they were killing and displacing weren't Christians, but "heathen savages." Plenty of historical writings from that period to back that up, too.




Manifest Destiny

https://www.history.com/topics/manifest-destiny

“INTRODUCTION
Manifest Destiny, a phrase coined in 1845, expressed the philosophy that drove 19th-century U.S. territorial expansion. Manifest Destiny held that the United States was destined—by God, its advocates believed—to expand its dominion and spread democracy and capitalism across the entire North American continent.“

*


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 21, 2018)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> I believe what was lost with the removal of Staff lead prayer in schools is a moral foundation among our student body that was reinforced in every facet of their lives.
> 
> We have become a society of parents in denial, where it is easier to blame everyone else for our childs failures instead of accepting the responsibility for where it lies and should begin. In the home.



This.


----------



## Israel (Mar 21, 2018)

That's true..."in the home"...send out little Daniels to be bold to pray where they are told they should not, pray when they are told "not here" or "not now". Nobody need ever hear a word, nobody need ever even know...but the one to whom they are speaking. But that they understand...not one created thing can interfere by right or authority in your communion with our God.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 21, 2018)

Israel said:


> That's true..."in the home"...send out little Daniels to be bold to pray where they are told they should not, pray when they are told "not here" or "not now". Nobody need ever hear a word, nobody need ever even know...but the one to whom they are speaking. But that they understand...not one created thing can interfere by right or authority in your communion with our God.


You've touched on something Ive been thinking this whole time.
You have to have a state approved formal Christian prayer time to pray/talk to God??
Removing prayer from school cut the communication lines with him?? He was literally expelled from school??
I'm not buying it. I think much of the underlying fervor is about "pride".
Christians want to puff out their chest and say "here in the USA we pray to MY God. The Christian God. Not nobody elses God because our God is the real one".
They want to point their finger and say "See , MY God is the legitimate one".
Its not about prayer.
Christians just don't like their god being put in the same basket as the other gods.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Mar 21, 2018)

What one generation condones, the next generation will openly practice.

It has happened with homosexually, free love, drug use, and every other vice you can name.  When the parents give a wink and a nod, and 'live and let live' with these activities, the generation they raise will practice those activities in the open and be proud of it.  

We as a nation have lowered the standards of morality until the next generation will have to dig a ditch to make them any lower.  In the 70's abortion was for rape, incest and such. Now it is preformed because the baby may have downs syndrome, or it is a boy/girl and we wanted the other, or it just isn't convienent now to have a child.   The 60's/70's saw recreational drug use and now we have an opioid crisis that has the gooberment suing the producers to try and recapture some of the cost of caring for these people.

You will not recognize America in another 30 years.  The slope is getting steeper and slicker.


----------



## Israel (Mar 21, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> You've touched on something Ive been thinking this whole time.
> You have to have a state approved formal Christian prayer time to pray/talk to God??
> Removing prayer from school cut the communication lines with him?? He was literally expelled from school??
> I'm not buying it. I think much of the underlying fervor is about "pride".
> ...



That's a view of things.

Myself? I can't square the true God with the one it's "legal" to endorse...because men say so. And I believe I am happier thus, also.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 21, 2018)

Israel said:


> That's a view of things.
> 
> Myself? I can't square the true God with the one it's "legal" to endorse...because men say so. And I believe I am happier thus, also.





> That's a view of things.


Yes it is


----------



## red neck richie (Mar 21, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Yes it is



Walt have you  received or have you given a Christmas present? Why is it so offensive to you? I know the answer so I guess my real question is why you are offended by it? Yes you are. To the point of wanting me to not be able to celebrate in public. Christmas has been around a long time.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 21, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> You've touched on something Ive been thinking this whole time.
> You have to have a state approved formal Christian prayer time to pray/talk to God??
> Removing prayer from school cut the communication lines with him?? He was literally expelled from school??
> I'm not buying it. I think much of the underlying fervor is about "pride".
> ...


Not really, at least this is not the feeling with the majority of folks I deal with. The beef is removing something that we felt helped maintain a civil society, and leaving a void. We didn’t put anything back there. Even if we were wrong, we as a society still failed for leaving a void. My point is I’m not asking you to believe in my God, but why can’t we as a society agree to teach some moral standards without either side screaming, for lack of better words, “freedom of religion” or “freedom from religion”. Seriously, look at the generation that we have created. And for a moment, you almost sounded like a bully


----------



## bullethead (Mar 22, 2018)

red neck richie said:


> Walt have you  received or have you given a Christmas present? Why is it so offensive to you? I know the answer so I guess my real question is why you are offended by it? Yes you are. To the point of wanting me to not be able to celebrate in public. Christmas has been around a long time.



A cristmas present offensive?

What does a jolly fat man dressed in a red suit have to do with Jesus or Christianity? Richie, take the time to resesrch the holiday and how it came to be. 
Ps.(in a wisper) Jesus wasnt born on the Dec. 25th.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 22, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Not really, at least this is not the feeling with the majority of folks I deal with. The beef is removing something that we felt helped maintain a civil society, and leaving a void. We didn’t put anything back there. Even if we were wrong, we as a society still failed for leaving a void. My point is I’m not asking you to believe in my God, but why can’t we as a society agree to teach some moral standards without either side screaming, for lack of better words, “freedom of religion” or “freedom from religion”. Seriously, look at the generation that we have created. And for a moment, you almost sounded like a bully





> The beef is removing something that we felt helped maintain a civil society, and leaving a void.


I understand that you believe that.
Couple of questions -
Are you telling me that removing 15 seconds of prayer in public school made God disappear from your or any Christian's life?
Can a Christian, at any time of the day or night, regardless of where they are, communicate with God?


> something that we felt


Who is "we"? Be honest.


----------



## Israel (Mar 22, 2018)

I think it was Ronald Reagan who used the phrase "City on a Hill" as though the USA could somehow "make itself" fit the bill. There have been numerous others that have borrowed an idea they believe they see in scripture that would add a legitimacy in equating this republic to the Church...or the manifestation of the Kingdom of God.

Is it a bad aspiration? I couldn't say so. Is it terribly naive and unconvincing? For without the preaching of the King it must remain a kingdom divided. Men cannot "enact" what is already established, at best they may come to an agreement in some sort in seeing "This thing already is"...and from there find a very pointed question of themselves "Am I in, or out?" But for men to think they are _the establishers_...either by laws or their coercion...well, it just don't work that way. Laws cannot make or further...what is established in mercy and grace.

A simple thing. Even if conceding some "light" to an earthly nation...why such a tremendous push back against southern neighbors who may flock to it...or others from s***hole countries? Wouldn't one expect _that_, and even be glad of it? The cost of having truly _open arms_ is more than men like to pay. Or can. Except for One.

But yes, I believe it a vanity of sorts...a pride...of sorts that propels men to expound well beyond their ability to deliver. It causes men and nations to _feel good about themselves_. But, I believe this of myself, no less, and must have it dealt with by deliverance into a something that is escape from that vanity. That I...can make of myself...anything at all. LOL...it's not unlike waking up to that phrase undercover cops on TV use when the wiser finds them out..."we been made".

Till the man...and his words match...the work is in progress.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 22, 2018)

red neck richie said:


> Walt have you  received or have you given a Christmas present? Why is it so offensive to you? I know the answer so I guess my real question is why you are offended by it? Yes you are. To the point of wanting me to not be able to celebrate in public.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> Walt have you  received or have you given a Christmas present?


Of course.


> Why is it so offensive to you?


Its not offensive at all. I enjoy giving or getting presents on any day.


> Christmas has been around a long time.


I know. Its been around since before it was even called Christmas.


> To the point of wanting me to not be able to celebrate in public.


I don't care if you want to dress like Mary and parade up and down the streets wishing the whole world a Merry Christmas.

Why do you think Christmas would offend me?


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Mar 22, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> People have been killing people in the name of their "god" for a pretty long time.



You avoided my question.



WaltL1 said:


> Does not the Bible not only condone but in fact instruct killing for certain "offenses"?



Does it, or is that your interpretation?



WaltL1 said:


> Either life has infinite worth and infinite dignity or it doesn't.



Well what's your conclusion on the matter and on what do you base it?



WaltL1 said:


> You are grasping onto a concept that sounds noble and honorable but has no basis in fact.



Not worth responding to.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Mar 22, 2018)

NE GA Pappy said:


> What one generation condones, the next generation will openly practice.
> 
> It has happened with homosexually, free love, drug use, and every other vice you can name.  When the parents give a wink and a nod, and 'live and let live' with these activities, the generation they raise will practice those activities in the open and be proud of it.
> 
> ...



Agree completely.  When you lose the vertical transcendent anchor for morality up becomes down, down becomes up.  That's where we are.  A nation with no moral compass and proud of it.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Mar 22, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> The Israelites were doing the same thing in the middle east, following their beliefs that validated it.



Your point? 



NCHillbilly said:


> And of course, westward expansion was driven by financial motives. But religion was very much used to validate it. The whole process was justified in the minds of those doing it by the fact that the people they were killing and displacing weren't Christians, but "heathen savages." Plenty of historical writings from that period to back that up, too.



You laid the blame for the Indians displacement and atrocities at the feet or religion.  It either is or it isn't the motive.  Apparently we both agree it was money, so why blame it on religion.  Call it for what it was.

And again, it's beside the point.  Religion and individually following Christ are 2 totally separate things.  To infer they are one is false.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 22, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> You avoided my question.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


.


> You avoided my question.


I didn't avoid your question. I pointed out that Christians, who you say believe that all life has infinite value and infinite dignity etc. has been killing other people since Christianity was created.
How dignified do you figure those women looked tied to a pole, their skin burnt and bubbling and bursting because they were deemed by Christians to be witches?
Their life had infinite value?
You know what infinite means right?


> Does it, or is that your interpretation?


oh please.


> Well what's your conclusion on the matter and on what do you base it?


I can only give you my personal opinion.
No not all life has infinite value and dignity.
Murder, rape etc one of my loved ones and your life isn't worth a plugged nickel and if possible I will make you die a very undignified death.


> Not worth responding to


That's fine. You would have to get around the answer to your first question anyway.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 22, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Your point?
> 
> My point is that it seemed when I was talking about the Indians having their own religion, you nullified the morals of their religion by saying that they were always killing and fighting each other.
> 
> ...



...


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Mar 22, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> ...



You left out; "While running from the very same oppressive tyranny they were applying to the Native Americans."


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 22, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> ...





> You do realize that there are countless writings from back then describing how it was their Christian duty to claim the land from the heathens and settle it with civilized Christians?


The Native Americans didn't have a chance.
A huge financial/political/personal gain in combination with man willing to justify his atrocities in God's name is a pretty deadly combination.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 22, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Not really, at least this is not the feeling with the majority of folks I deal with. The beef is removing something that we felt helped maintain a civil society, and leaving a void. We didn’t put anything back there. Even if we were wrong, we as a society still failed for leaving a void. My point is I’m not asking you to believe in my God, but why can’t we as a society agree to teach some moral standards without either side screaming, for lack of better words, “freedom of religion” or “freedom from religion”. Seriously, look at the generation that we have created. And for a moment, you almost sounded like a bully


Based off of your definition/understanding/belief in "God", how can humans remove/not allow/banish your God from schools or anywhere else?


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 22, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Based off of your definition/understanding/belief in "God", how can humans remove/not allow/banish your God from schools or anywhere else?


I keep trying to make that exact point but maybe I'm not wording right 
To say that there is now a "void" or because you literally kicked God out of school society is now going to crap because of it.....
is to completely contradict the whole God is everywhere,  is all powerful, knows what you are thinking, knows when you've been bad or good so be good for goodness sake and all that other stuff.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 22, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I keep trying to make that exact point but maybe I'm not wording right
> To say that there is now a "void" or because you literally kicked God out of school society is now going to crap because of it.....
> is to completely contradict the whole God is everywhere,  is all powerful, knows what you are thinking, knows when you've been bad or good so be good for goodness sake and all that other stuff.



Yeah,  I am trying to figure out how god is a victim here or can somehow be prevented from being with his "chosen" people simply by the words Public School appearing on a building. 

What I think is happening is that it is an unintended admission of god being more of a practice or ceremonial rather than just being.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 22, 2018)

What can be said of the Christian god that sets his chosen children on paths of disobedience and destruction merely because the kids are not allowed to pray to him in school?

Or, is it more of a believers plea that...We are losing these kids as followers because not praying in school is one less chance at keeping a routine of indoctrination?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 22, 2018)

According to Stanley G. Payne, "[T]he expansion of the faith was inextricably intertwined with military glory and economic profit. Because of this it is idle to ask, as is frequently done, whether the Portuguese pioneers and Castilian conquistadores were motivated more by greed or by religious zeal. In the Hispanic crusading expansionist ideology, the two went together.[9]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_the_Age_of_Discovery


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 22, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I understand that you believe that.
> Couple of questions -
> Are you telling me that removing 15 seconds of prayer in public school made God disappear from your or any Christian's life?
> Can a Christian, at any time of the day or night, regardless of where they are, communicate with God?
> ...


No it didn’t and doesn’t affect me and many others at all as far as our communication to God. 

 Since it was a Supreme Court decision, the “we” is all of us as a society.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 22, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> That's why I have a problem with these type of writers who peddle this nonsense. In this case it was a Christian writer.
> He is assuming/thinks/believes that you, the intended reader (other Christians), are literally too stupid to recognize exactly the type of things you and some of the other Christians here have pointed out.
> And yes, the same can be said about some Atheist writers. Some of those writers I cant read but a sentence or two without coming to the conclusion that "this guy truly thinks I'm an idiot if he thinks I'm going to blindly swallow this nonsense he is peddling".



That article is so far off base one would think it's satire.

If he would have had a better justification perhaps. A better answer as to why he believes Atheist are bullies.

Maybe if he brought in Total Depravity as a reason Atheist are evil. Then somehow show that Hindus and Jew are evil as well by being totally depraved like the American Atheist.
Something, anything was better than his reasoning.

The article was suppose to be about Atheist being bullies but in the end he changes the article to Atheist being evil. Basing this on a few mad man  Atheist dictators. Atheist leaders like Stalin, Mao Zedong, Hideki To ̄jo ̄, & Pol Pot. He avoided Japan who believed in a god and were just a ruthless. 
                                                                                                                            He tries to justify this evil mindset to kill humans because Atheist don't believe man is made in the image of God and thus human life has no "infinite" value and dignity. Atheist don't believe in God so they dodn't believe in any transcendent, objective moral law. 

My point is if morals come from the God of Abraham and one is trying to point that Atheist don't have any then why do Hindus? Saying that morals comes from the God of Abraham makes it look like the Hindus get their morals from just believing in a god. 
In other words it makes  the idea of being religious making one moral. Even if it's a false religion. So in this way man could create a false religion to make himself and others moral. If the Hindu created a false religion and are moral because they believe what will happen to them if they aren't?
It makes Christianity look and sound the same. It makes the morality seem like it comes from man and not God if one can believe in a false God and have morals.

Thus you can't paint Atheist in a different light than the Hindu if morals come from the God of Abraham. Since the Hindu are also moral, it makes their morals come from "just believing." If "Just believing" in a false God gives one morals, what does that say about Christianity?


----------



## oldfella1962 (Mar 22, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Yeah,  I am trying to figure out how god is a victim here or can somehow be prevented from being with his "chosen" people simply by the words Public School appearing on a building.
> 
> What I think is happening is that it is an unintended admission of god being more of a practice or ceremonial rather than just being.



and not allowing formalized prayer in school is an attack on a _culture_ more than anything.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 22, 2018)

oldfella1962 said:


> and not allowing formalized prayer in school is an attack on a _culture_ more than anything.



I wonder how much time would be needed to set aside the reciting of prayers of all the practiced religions by the students across the country?
I wonder how tolerated it would be by the majority?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 22, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> No it didn’t and doesn’t affect me and many others at all as far as our communication to God.
> 
> Since it was a Supreme Court decision, the “we” is all of us as a society.



If it doesn't affect your and many others communication with and to God, what is the basis of the argument that not allowing god in school is leading to the moral decay of our youth and society???


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 22, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Yeah,  I am trying to figure out how god is a victim here or can somehow be prevented from being with his "chosen" people simply by the words Public School appearing on a building.
> 
> What I think is happening is that it is an unintended admission of god being more of a practice or ceremonial rather than just being.


Yep, a good case can be made that society is going to crap but to say its because man "kicked God out" doesn't seem like a well thought out response considering what Christians say God is.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 22, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I wonder how much time would be needed to set aside the reciting of prayers of all the practiced religions by the students across the country?
> I wonder how tolerated it would be by the majority?


And don't forget Atheist and Agnostic time where we just have fun and tell dirty jokes.
"So a priest, a pastor and a transvestite walk into a bar and....."


----------



## bullethead (Mar 22, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> And don't forget Atheist and Agnostic time where we just have fun and tell dirty jokes.
> "So a priest, a pastor and a transvestite walk into a bar and....."


We can use that time to balance our checkbooks,apparently it is the same thing..


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 22, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Based off of your definition/understanding/belief in "God", how can humans remove/not allow/banish your God from schools or anywhere else?


This is not about removing or banishing God from anything.  

I believe oldfella is accurate.   


WaltL1 said:


> I keep trying to make that exact point but maybe I'm not wording right
> To say that there is now a "void" or because you literally kicked God out of school society is now going to crap because of it.....
> is to completely contradict the whole God is everywhere,  is all powerful, knows what you are thinking, knows when you've been bad or good so be good for goodness sake and all that other stuff.





bullethead said:


> Yeah,  I am trying to figure out how god is a victim here or can somehow be prevented from being with his "chosen" people simply by the words Public School appearing on a building.
> 
> What I think is happening is that it is an unintended admission of god being more of a practice or ceremonial rather than just being.





bullethead said:


> What can be said of the Christian god that sets his chosen children on paths of disobedience and destruction merely because the kids are not allowed to pray to him in school?
> 
> Or, is it more of a believers plea that...We are losing these kids as followers because not praying in school is one less chance at keeping a routine of indoctrination?


I would have to think that one could only be foolish to not see the lack of respect for our churches, law enforcement, veterans and country in the next generation.  

What other common denominators can be factored in? It may only be coincidence with removing class led prayer, anything Christian from any other public places, (the attack on Christianity) and the way these kids act now and we can go that rout and assume it. 

Again, I am not advocating that we must teach Christianity in order to fix it, but what other events got us here besides the attack on Christianity?  


oldfella1962 said:


> and not allowing formalized prayer in school is an attack on a _culture_ more than anything.



Yes I agree! I said before, we went from Little House on the Prairie to the Purge. But why?


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 22, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> This is not about removing or banishing God from anything.
> 
> I believe oldfella is accurate.
> 
> ...





> see the lack of respect for our churches


Because some nutbag murdered some folks in a church?
Because some tiny, minute portion of society are skin head neo Nazi types and paint profanity on churches?
That = society doesn't respect churches??


> law enforcement,


Some law enforcement has earned their loss of respect.


> veterans


Ask a Vietnam Vet to compare how he was treated by his generation compared to how this generation treats the guys coming home now.


> and country


There's members of this generation dying and getting maimed for this country as we speak.


> but what other events got us here.


There are volumes written on the effect of both parents having to work for a family to survive and a host of other contributing factors.


> we went from Little House on the Prairie to the Purge.


Every generation has said the exact same thing.

I honestly respect your intentions on this subject. I believe your heart is in the right place as they say..
I also believe you have inflated the effect of removing a 15 second prayer from public schools from a balloon to the Good Year blimp.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 22, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I also believe you have inflated the effect of removing a 15 second prayer from public schools from a balloon to the Good Year blimp.



Not intentionally. What I was curious about is the answer to the below questions; other than what we see as an attack on Christianity, or is it pure coincidence?





Spotlite said:


> What other common denominators can be factored in?  but what other events got us here besides the attack on Christianity?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 22, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> This is not about removing or banishing God from anything.
> 
> I believe oldfella is accurate.



So it IS about indoctrinating a culture?







Spotlite said:


> I would have to think that one could only be foolish to not see the lack of respect for our churches, law enforcement, veterans and country in the next generation.



There is no doubt that those things are going on,  but it has more to do with upbringing by the generations (who supposedly ARE more Christian and were allowed to pray in school) before this current generation of children. 




Spotlite said:


> What other common denominators can be factored in? It may only be coincidence with removing class led prayer, anything Christian from any other public places, (the attack on Christianity) and the way these kids act now and we can go that rout and assume it.


Well for starters Parents and Grandparents need to PARENT. It has nothing to do with class led anything let alone prayer or anything religious.

 If you HAVE to bring religion into this I would be willing to bet(based off of the majority religion in this country) that the majority of these disrespectful and violent kids come from so called Christian families. The parents would rather be friends than parents. They want to look cool to their kids friends. They think giving EVERY KID a trophy for merely showing up is gonna make them feel good, but in reality it does not prepare them for the real world. 
The parents work so the "kids" dont have to...and they DON'T! They get handed $25,000+ vehicles, a gas card and a $900 cell phone and NEVER work to pay for gas, car insurance, tires or the cell phone bill. The parents allow these kids to stay inside on every single sunny day and play online games when they should be told then made to go out and play,  get dirty, scrape your knee, eat dirt. But OHHH Noooo, We(yes the majority of OUR generation) dont want to allow our kids to be kids.

The TRUTH is religion or god has NOTHING to do with it. We do not have non christian kids acting any different than christian kids.



Spotlite said:


> Again, I am not advocating that we must teach Christianity in order to fix it, but what other events got us here besides the attack on Christianity?



"We" do not prepare our kids for reality. Get 10 teenagers together and they would rather sit within 10ft of each other and text one another and or take selfie pics along with some sort of ridiculous cartoon graphic imposed over their real face rather than actually talk to each other.  They do not, CANNOT look a person in the eye when talked to. 
Technology, along with Parents, have taken the social out of society.

When put in real every day common scenarios these kids do not know how to handle defeat, a setback, or any sort of challenging obstacle because since they were born their PARENTS(which the majority consists of people Your and My age) did every single possible thing to eliminate any sort of hardship in these kids lives.
When diversity strikes these kids lash out in violence, be it bullying online or socially, because they have not been exposed to reality. They crap their pants in stressful situations. A school shooting happens and ALL they know is to turn on their phone and take selfies and text how they feel.
Praying to a god doesnt solve this.
A swift kick in the donkey when needed and large doses of reality while growing up prepare them for what is really out there in life.

Does praying in school fix any of this? Seriously? Do you honestly think that an attack on Christianity is to blame? Again, Id wager that the majority of today's youth are Christians, come from Christian families and have more Christian influences than not.
How/Why Has their parents and grandparents let their kids Christian influences go away? Can prayer in school be replaced with the same 30 seconds of prayer at home?
What is the EXCUSE when Christian (or anyone that believes in a higher power) does bad things? Who or what gets the blame for the actions of someone else?

Parents need to Parent and prepare their children for the real world.
Their are no special programs for a person when out in the real world. If you are supposed to be rolling asphalt and instead you are slacking off on the cell phone taking selfies and your excuse to your boss is that you have a learning disability or your feelings get hurt easily so you dont have to do your job like everyone else.....guess what....you are looking for a new job.

In school, because the same kids parents had meeting after meeting so their kid can attend classes with all the regular kids while saying their little Johnny should be treated like all the other kids, those same parents are the first to call for a teachers dismissal as soon as the teacher single out little Johnny for acting up in class....and the parents then IMMEDIATELY use the He Is Special card to keep him from doing his homework, behaving, and taking tests like everyone else is expected to do.

Either god steps in and wises up the kids or the parents better take it upon themselves to do it.






Spotlite said:


> Yes I agree! I said before, we went from Little House on the Prairie to the Purge. But why?



We made it happen.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 22, 2018)

bullethead said:


> We can use that time to balance our checkbooks,apparently it is the same thing..



If Atheism is a religion then you would get your fair share of this prayer time too.  
I wonder today, how many different religions there are in a classroom? 
I think the thing was or is about religion in school isn't neutrality but just offering prayer from one of those religions and not all of them.
So maybe if the school set aside a certain time for each student to pray to his God, tree, or energy force field as need be. Then again as mentioned, who can stop someone from communicating with their God in any environment?

The problem lies when the Muslim teacher starts leading in prayers to Allah. Maybe even a Jehovah Witness teacher leading a prayer in a fashion that could sway Baptist children into believing Jesus isn't a part of the Trinity. An Apostolic teacher swaying a student in a Oneness direction.
So if prayer was introduced back into the school system, it should have some type of neutrality rules.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 22, 2018)

These discussions lead me to think that many Christians believe it is better to believe in "any" god than no gods or God. They can tolerate someone believing in another god but to them there is just something about not believing in "any" god or God.

That if one believes in any god then he therefore gains morals from that belief of any god. Does one's morals come from believing in that god or from that god?


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 22, 2018)

bullethead said:


> So it IS about indoctrinating a culture?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hard to argue with this since I’m a firm believer that the home is where it starts. I guess the problem becomes when it’s not taught at home. But I’m also for less govt in our lives so it paints me in the corner. When a kid is not taught something, he is not going to teach it to his either. I wouldn’t call it indoctrination, no more than teaching them evolution against what the believe is creation.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 22, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Hard to argue with this since I’m a firm believer that the home is where it starts. I guess the problem becomes when it’s not taught at home. But I’m also for less govt in our lives so it paints me in the corner. When a kid is not taught something, he is not going to teach it to his either. I wouldn’t call it indoctrination, no more than teaching them evolution against what the believe is creation.



In addition to The Lord's Prayer before class starts,  would you be ok with allowing your kids to stay and listen to prayers of at least a half dozen or more other religions?


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 22, 2018)

bullethead said:


> In addition to The Lord's Prayer before class starts,  would you be ok with allowing your kids to stay and listen to prayers of at least a half dozen or more other religions?



Honestly, no, we are a nation under God. We shouldn’t be concerned about the Hindu god. But that’s just my biased opinion.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 22, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Honestly, no, we are a nation under God. We shouldn’t be concerned about the Hindu god. But that’s just my biased opinion.



Ahhh, so freedom to choose and worship only counts if it is the same god that you worship.

I do appreciate your honesty though.

Why do you think we are One Nation Under God instead of One Nation Under Jesus?

Is it fair to say then that you would be ok with just the Jews and Christians praying out loud in schools since it's the same god?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 22, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Honestly, no, we are a nation under God. We shouldnâ€™t be concerned about the Hindu god. But thatâ€™s just my biased opinion.



Who's God was it before 1954?

Pledge of Allegiance
(Bellamy versions)
1892 (first version)

[1]"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

1892 to 1923"
I pledge allegiance to my Flag and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

1923 to 1954 [1]
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

1954 (current version)
4 U.S.C. §4 2]"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."


----------



## gemcgrew (Mar 22, 2018)

I don't think a Christian pledges allegiance to the flag or to the republic.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 22, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> That if one believes in any god then he therefore gains morals from that belief of any god. Does one's morals come from believing in that god or from that god?



What if you worship Czernobog or Loki or Zeus?


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Mar 22, 2018)

gemcgrew said:


> I don't think a Christian pledges allegiance to the flag or to the republic.



That is a peculiar assumption, and mostly incorrect.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 22, 2018)

gemcgrew said:


> I don't think a Christian pledges allegiance to the flag or to the republic.



Nooo, certainly not one of the 5 or 6 TRUE Christians who feel they set the bar (hand chosen by the Lord to do so of course) that all the other Christians are pretending to achieve, I was referring to the other Dozens of Millions of Christians that Love their Country along with their God.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 22, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Ahhh, so freedom to choose and worship only counts if it is the same god that you worship.
> 
> I do appreciate your honesty though.
> 
> ...



No I’m not saying that. I’m saying freedom to worship is just that without a group telling me and a group that worship the same God that we can’t do it as a group. And if I don’t want to worship with a particular group, I should excuse myself and let them be. For my belief, God and Jesus are one.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 22, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Who's God was it before 1954?
> 
> Pledge of Allegiance
> (Bellamy versions)
> ...



My only point is the Red Man can tell us some great stories about how well things worked out for them by letting anyone and everyone come in and we adapt to them.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 22, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> My only point is the Red Man can tell us some great stories about how well things worked out for them by letting anyone and everyone come in and we adapt to them.



I am not getting that Point at all.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 22, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> No I’m not saying that. I’m saying freedom to worship is just that without a group telling me and a group that worship the same God that we can’t do it as a group. And if I don’t want to worship with a particular group, I should excuse myself and let them be. For my belief, God and Jesus are one.


You aren't being told you can't do it in a group that believes the same as you. In fact you have your very own places to go to be with that group.
Christian schools.
Home schooling.
Churches.

Its great that you can recognize -


> But that’s just my biased opinion.


Now see if you can recognize why having your very own schools and places to worship doesn't seem to be good enough for you.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 22, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I am not getting that Point at all.


If we continue to adapt, we will no longer be what we once were. Sort of my comment about going from Little House on the Prairie to the Purge. Each new generation is offended by something.


WaltL1 said:


> You aren't being told you can't do it in a group that believes the same as you. In fact you have your very own places to go to be with that group.
> Christian schools.
> Home schooling.
> Churches.
> ...


If it only stopped at school prayer, I’d say you’re right. But it wasn’t that long ago that churches and Pastors were under fire about turning over their sermons and threatened to be forced into performing gay marriages when they didn’t believe in it. 

For the record for the both of you, I’m not disagreeing with either of you about prayer in school. Part of my Christian upbringing is to treat people the same way I want to be treated. I wouldn’t want to be forced to listen to a prayer that I didn’t believe in, so I wouldn’t want that forced on others. What I would like to see is no one making a big deal about a coach and his team praying if they’re all of the same believe.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 22, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> If we continue to adapt, we will no longer be what we once were. Sort of my comment about going from Little House on the Prairie to the Purge. Each new generation is offended by something.
> 
> If it only stopped at school prayer, I’d say you’re right. But it wasn’t that long ago that churches and Pastors were under fire about turning over their sermons and threatened to be forced into performing gay marriages when they didn’t believe in it.
> 
> For the record for the both of you, I’m not disagreeing with either of you about prayer in school. Part of my Christian upbringing is to treat people the same way I want to be treated. I wouldn’t want to be forced to listen to a prayer that I didn’t believe in, so I wouldn’t want that forced on others. What I would like to see is no one making a big deal about a coach and his team praying if they’re all of the same believe.


I honestly could not care less about what people who are like minded do when they are all in agreement and in their own setting. As long as they aren't  telling me or others what we should be doing,  live and let live.
Ive never complained to any politician, local or otherwise, about anything religious around town, or a manger scene at xmas or anything like that. I wish people Merry Christmas. I bow my head in a church when at a wedding. I respect the religious people around me and the traditions. I've been in business for myself for 22 years and I'd bet there is not a customer of mine that would know my beliefs or unbeliefs. 
But,  I gladly play devils advocate when they insist on telling me things they cannot possibly know.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 22, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> If we continue to adapt, we will no longer be what we once were. Sort of my comment about going from Little House on the Prairie to the Purge. Each new generation is offended by something.
> 
> If it only stopped at school prayer, I’d say you’re right. But it wasn’t that long ago that churches and Pastors were under fire about turning over their sermons and threatened to be forced into performing gay marriages when they didn’t believe in it.
> 
> For the record for the both of you, I’m not disagreeing with either of you about prayer in school. Part of my Christian upbringing is to treat people the same way I want to be treated. I wouldn’t want to be forced to listen to a prayer that I didn’t believe in, so I wouldn’t want that forced on others. What I would like to see is no one making a big deal about a coach and his team praying if they’re all of the same believe.





> If it only stopped at school prayer, I’d say you’re right. But it wasn’t that long ago that churches and Pastors were under fire about turning over their sermons and threatened to be forced into performing gay marriages when they didn’t believe in it.


Churches get big tax breaks. By taking those tax breaks they subject themselves to all kind of rules and regulations.
How to fix it?
Don't take the tax breaks. Let God provide.
By the way guess who pays for those tax breaks?


> What I would like to see is no one making a big deal about a coach and his team praying if they’re all of the same believe.





> if they’re all of the same believe.


But that's just it. Public schools are attended by the public. The % of the public who are NOT Christian has been steadily increasing for years.
The % of the public that ARE Christians have been steadily declining for years.
Its time for Christians to accept that fact, quit whining, and go to Christian schools where they can pray all day if they want.
How about -
"Team gather around. Lets take a minute of silence and get our heads straight. Think about whatever you want during this time that gets your head in the game and then we are going to go out there and kick their butts"!
You good with that?
Seems pretty simple to me


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 22, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Churches get big tax breaks. By taking those tax breaks they subject themselves to all kind of rules and regulations.
> How to fix it?
> Don't take the tax breaks. Let God provide.
> By the way guess who pays for those tax breaks?
> ...



Interesting..........The NFL is allowed to kneel while we tax payers pay for the NFL tax breaks........because it’s “their right to kneel” 

The churches need to stop taking the tax break if they want to preach their convictions.........And the attack on religion is not real???  Boy that’s a double standard! 

And this response is not directed at you personally, I just used it since you brought it up.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 22, 2018)

Reminds me of the commercial;


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 22, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> Reminds me of the commercial;



Lol true!


----------



## Israel (Mar 23, 2018)

Resentment... around the 3 minute mark...but the whole of it speaks




"you go after the unknown..."

In another talk he quoted one who said "the thing you will find that helps you the most is by looking in the place you do not want to look"

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

That He became (for _me_) what is rejected of men, that He became (for me) what appeared smitten of God, that He became (for me) what all intelligence whether in earth, or Heaven itself, seemed to abandon...that I might be received...and in so doing manifest the plain "disabled" state of man...dead...undone...ineffective...a scorn and shame...lifeless

Look!

Look where you would not!


----------



## gemcgrew (Mar 24, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Nooo, certainly not one of the 5 or 6 TRUE Christians who feel they set the bar (hand chosen by the Lord to do so of course) that all the other Christians are pretending to achieve, I was referring to the other Dozens of Millions of Christians that Love their Country along with their God.


I sometimes raid the camp of zero and they don't even know it.

BTW, I do not think that Christians love their country along with their God.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 24, 2018)

gemcgrew said:


> I sometimes raid the camp of zero and they don't even know it.
> 
> BTW, I do not think that Christians love their country along with their God.



Would you say the concept of adding God and country is man made? Maybe if a government can instill in it's people that if you love God & country, you'll be for their way of thinking. Such as a certain war or as in the past taking someone else's land. 
Maybe this is why the "under God" phrase was added. Do it for God. God and country.

Just curious, do you not say the Pledge of Allegiance?
It was written by Francis Bellamy, a Christian Socialist.
(Not that there is anything wrong with that.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Bellamy

"In 1891, Bellamy was "forced from his Boston pulpit for preaching against the evils of capitalism"

"Bellamy "believed in the absolute separation of church and state" and did not include the phrase "under God" within his original pledge."

"In 1954, in response to the perceived threat of secular Communism, President Eisenhower encouraged Congress to add the words "under God," creating the 31-word pledge that is recited today."

I guess the "under God" phrase was added more as an anti-communism message than for the love of God. Meaning God was against Communism. Because all Communist are Atheist but not all Atheist are Communist. 
But the preacher wasn't a Communist, just a socialist. 
A lot of Churches have beginnings in socialism and commune living. Bellamy also preached "spreading the wealth."
At least he was smart enough to keep religion separate from government.


----------



## gemcgrew (Mar 24, 2018)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> That is a peculiar assumption, and mostly incorrect.


Until it isn't.



I am the handsome non-Christian in the picture. Even then, I found it a bit odd that we would pledge allegiance to the flag and sing the Star Spangled Banner. Then we would pledge allegiance to the Christian flag and sing Onward Christian Soldiers.

The non-Christian fits right in, when the major is patriotism and the minor is Jesus.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 24, 2018)

Interesting. That is exactly the mindset of a Muslim jihadist, also.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 24, 2018)

A nation that acknowledges the inherent rights of it's citizens is worth honoring.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 24, 2018)

gemcgrew said:


> BTW, I do not think that Christians love their country along with their God.



You thought wrong. Christians love their country and respects those that have authority. The Christian prays for God to continue to bless their country.


----------



## gemcgrew (Mar 24, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> You thought wrong. Christians love their country and respects those that have authority. The Christian prays for God to continue to bless their country.


In China, Russia, Afghanistan etc.?


----------



## Israel (Mar 25, 2018)

To touch patriotism is to touch a great idol, to see its earthy roots and growth formidable, to perceive the glory it boasts in the surpassing Glory is given through Christ.

Once, when visiting brothers near Brisbane there was much talk of the visiting American brothers. When endeavoring to rightly present that we were brothers _from _America and that these assumed primary labels must take their proper place; no longer esteeming ourselves differentiated by places of natural occupation (for these are merely earthy and always subject to change) I was rebuffed.

Soulish identifications run deep.

"That's easy for you to say" said one younger brother, "you are not Australian". National pride...is pride, nonetheless.


----------



## red neck richie (Mar 25, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> Interesting. That is exactly the mindset of a Muslim jihadist, also.



So now you are comparing God Loving, American loving,  Christians that built this country to the greatest in the world to jihadist? I use to respect your opinion on this topic. But what ever you choose to believe I don't want you dead or beheaded for public display because of your beliefs. Btw you know the mindset of muslim jihadist? I thought you were raised by a preacher?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 25, 2018)

red neck richie said:


> So now you are comparing God Loving, American loving,  Christians that built this country to the greatest in the world to jihadist? I use to respect your opinion on this topic. But what ever you choose to believe I don't want you dead or beheaded for public display because of your beliefs. Btw you know the mindset of muslim jihadist? I thought you were raised by a preacher?


I think your interpretation is a bit off.


----------



## red neck richie (Mar 25, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I think your interpretation is a bit off.



Comparing American Christians to muslim jihadist?   How so?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 25, 2018)

red neck richie said:


> Comparing American Christians to muslim jihadist?   How so?



He was comparing replies by ONE person.



gemcgrew said:


> I sometimes raid the camp of zero and they don't even know it.
> 
> BTW, I do not think that Christians love their country along with their God.







gemcgrew said:


> Until it isn't.
> 
> I am the handsome non-Christian in the picture. Even then, I found it a bit odd that we would pledge allegiance to the flag and sing the Star Spangled Banner. Then we would pledge allegiance to the Christian flag and sing Onward Christian Soldiers.
> 
> The non-Christian fits right in, when the major is patriotism and the minor is Jesus.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 25, 2018)

red neck richie said:


> Comparing American Christians to muslim jihadist?   How so?


Be honest.... do you actually think anybody in here would compare an American Christian with a Muslim jihadist??

Those dudes are serious about their religion!


----------



## Israel (Mar 26, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Be honest.... do you actually think anybody in here would compare an American Christian with a Muslim jihadist??
> 
> Those dudes are serious about their religion!



That's interesting. I am willing to be disabused of this notion if it's false, but I am inclined to believe the jihadist does not have any particular bond/tie to a nation.
Their ideals (such as they are) supersede all else.

(And finally...someone has decided):


https://news.dailytoast.com/quizzes...quiz&utm_content=feed&ua_id=23842727936030546


----------



## oldfella1962 (Mar 27, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> If we continue to adapt, we will no longer be what we once were. Sort of my comment about going from Little House on the Prairie to the Purge. Each new generation is offended by something.
> 
> If it only stopped at school prayer, I’d say you’re right. But it wasn’t that long ago that churches and Pastors were under fire about turning over their sermons and threatened to be forced into performing gay marriages when they didn’t believe in it.
> 
> For the record for the both of you, I’m not disagreeing with either of you about prayer in school. Part of my Christian upbringing is to treat people the same way I want to be treated. I wouldn’t want to be forced to listen to a prayer that I didn’t believe in, so I wouldn’t want that forced on others. What I would like to see is no one making a big deal about a coach and his team praying if they’re all of the same believe.



exactly! Even if they aren't all of the same general belief if nobody is offended to the point of it physically upsetting them, no big deal. It's a few minutes of your time and if it helps "unit cohesion" then have your brief prayer time then get back to business.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 27, 2018)

red neck richie said:


> Comparing American Christians to muslim jihadist?   How so?





bullethead said:


> He was comparing replies by ONE person.





Israel said:


> That's interesting. I am willing to be disabused of this notion if it's false, but I am inclined to believe the jihadist does not have any particular bond/tie to a nation.
> Their ideals (such as they are) supersede all else.
> 
> (And finally...someone has decided):
> ...



This. I'm not talking about beheadings and public torture such, even though heresy and blasphemy used to be punishable by death in Christendom, like it is in the Muslim world now. Christianity has evolved since the Middle Ages, Islam has not. 

The part I was comparing, as others noted, was the mindset expressed by gemcgrew that a Christian shouldn't have any allegiance to any country, only to God. That is definitely the same mindset as a Muslim jihadi. They don't see themselves acting in the name of allegiance to any particular country, they are acting for Allah. 

I think most American Christians would disagree with his opinion of having no allegiance to America because they are a Christian, certainly the Christian folks I know do not think like this.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 27, 2018)

oldfella1962 said:


> exactly! Even if they aren't all of the same general belief if nobody is offended to the point of it physically upsetting them, no big deal. It's a few minutes of your time and if it helps "unit cohesion" then have your brief prayer time then get back to business.



I like how at the end of NFL and NBA games, those that want to pray get together in the center of the field/court and kneel and pray while the rest do whatever around them.  That's the way it should be in the locker room too.  Prayer should be extra curricular and totally voluntary.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Mar 27, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> I like how at the end of NFL and NBA games, those that want to pray get together in the center of the field/court and kneel and pray while the rest do whatever around them.  That's the way it should be in the locker room too.  Prayer should be extra curricular and totally voluntary.



Except they can't do that at high school football games in the middle of the field.  And if the coach even stands to the side and bows his head, he is liable to be fired for that.

There was one coach fired because after a game, he would go off to the side of the field by himself, bow and pray.  No students, no one else involved. Just the coach by himself.  It seems the liberals couldn't tolerate a grown man showing his reverence to God in a public setting.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 27, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> This. I'm not talking about beheadings and public torture such, even though heresy and blasphemy used to be punishable by death in Christendom, like it is in the Muslim world now. Christianity has evolved since the Middle Ages, Islam has not.
> 
> The part I was comparing, as others noted, was the mindset expressed by gemcgrew that a Christian shouldn't have any allegiance to any country, only to God. That is definitely the same mindset as a Muslim jihadi. They don't see themselves acting in the name of allegiance to any particular country, they are acting for Allah.
> 
> I think most American Christians would disagree with his opinion of having no allegiance to America because they are a Christian, certainly the Christian folks I know do not think like this.



I just recently read something about the Marines changing one of their slogans from God Country Corps to God Corps Country and how significant the ordering of them is.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 27, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> I just recently read something about the Marines changing one of their slogans from God Country Corps to God Corps Country and how significant the ordering of them is.


Only one answer for that: 

"_I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed ..."_


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 27, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> Only one answer for that:
> 
> "_I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed ..."_



But they also allow that someone's allegiance to a god can supersede all that.  Thus the recognition of  conscientious objection.


----------



## Israel (Mar 30, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> But they also allow that someone's allegiance to a god can supersede all that.  Thus the recognition of  conscientious objection.



And yet...so many of the "they" who would resist such an allowance came to understand it was their own selves they resisted.

But you, beloved, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God as you await the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you eternal life. And indeed, have mercy on those who doubt; save others by snatching them from the fire; and to still others, show mercy tempered with fear, hating even the clothing stained by the flesh...

Did you see Hacksaw Ridge?

Better yet...do you know you are on it?


----------



## Branchminnow (Mar 30, 2018)

No such thing as an atheist 
They might think they don’t believe in god but they will before this whole thing comes to an end 


Philippians 2:10-11 King James Version (KJV)

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

King James Version (KJV)


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 30, 2018)

Israel said:


> And yet...so many of the "they" who would resist such an allowance came to understand it was their own selves they resisted.
> 
> But you, beloved, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God as you await the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you eternal life. And indeed, have mercy on those who doubt; save others by snatching them from the fire; and to still others, show mercy tempered with fear, hating even the clothing stained by the flesh...
> 
> ...





> Did you see Hacksaw Ridge?


The movie portrayal was suprisingly accurate to the actual true story too. Some things were embellished/changed but overall pretty accurate.
www.historyvshollywood.com/reelfaces/hacksaw-ridge/


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 30, 2018)

Branchminnow said:


> No such thing as an atheist
> They might think they don’t believe in god but they will before this whole thing comes to an end
> 
> 
> ...





> No such thing as an atheist
> They might think they don’t believe in god but they will before this whole thing comes to an end


Until that happens, an Atheist doesn't believe in (g)Gods.
So there is such a thing as Atheists.


----------



## Israel (Mar 30, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> The movie portrayal was suprisingly accurate to the actual true story too. Some things were embellished/changed but overall pretty accurate.
> www.historyvshollywood.com/reelfaces/hacksaw-ridge/



Yes, that's what I had read/heard...in film making one of the few times truth outstrips and stands well beyond the fictions we may have fallen in love with.

Such a precious fiction is here:


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 19, 2018)

Cry it out SFD.


----------

