# Official "Why are we seeing less deer in Ga" thread



## Milkman (Nov 16, 2008)

There have been several threads and posts related to this recently.

Many of us are seeing less deer in some areas that formerly offered more deer sightings. Is it simply that there are less deer ? Have they become more nocturnal than they used to be?

Could it be the invasion and population explosion of the coyote?  

Could it be the invasion of the armadillo? 

Is is global warming?

 Is there a scientific reason for you seeing less deer? 

Lets keep this serious and see how many theories and ideas we can accumulate.


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## HandgunHTR (Nov 16, 2008)

My theory is that we are not looking hard enough.  With the encroachment of civilization to most of the areas that we hunt, the deer have moved to the thicker parts of the woods.  
Most guys don't want to hunt somewhere they can't drive their ATV or truck to, so they see less deer.


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## deerbuster (Nov 16, 2008)

I think it may be that some of us are pressuring the deer too much...Or taking to many deer.


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## ForestNinja (Nov 16, 2008)

Milkman said:


> There have been several threads and posts related to this recently.
> 
> Many of us are seeing less deer in some areas that formerly offered more deer sightings. Is it simply that there are less deer ? Have they become more nocturnal than they used to be?
> 
> ...



Well this one is easy. You got a 10 doe limit. It takes does to make more deer. Kill all the does and you soon have no deer. That was EASY


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## cpowel10 (Nov 16, 2008)

I think the bag limit on does is to high.

I think when the limit was three, when most people got to 3 they would stop and call it a successful season.  

NOW the limit is really high, and I feel that a lot of people are trying to reach their limit just to do it.  There are also a lot of poachers that want to shoot OVER the limit, so they end up killing a pile of deer.

Back when I was in Highschool I heard of a guy that killed 17 BUCKS in one season.  I think poachers that want to kill over the limit now have to kill a really high number to reach their goal.


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## kevincox (Nov 16, 2008)

deerbuster said:


> I think it may be that some of us are pressuring the deer too much...Or taking to many deer.



yep


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## Andrew Herren (Nov 16, 2008)

The biggest buck I've seen this year was in my neighborhood while taking my daughter to school. Deer seem to really like the security of the city limits and the ferterlized food. My dog that used to run them off my farm just watches them from by back deck as they eat the big white oaks. It's almost like they understand"keep your friends close, and your enemies closer".


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## dawg2 (Nov 16, 2008)

I have an IR cams setup on 2 traditionally HEAVY trails.  They get nothing.  I get some pics inmy pasture (night only) and nowhere near as many deer as I used to get.  It is VERY weird.  Something is definitely up and there has been no development around me.  I am surounded by woods.  I really am seeing fewer deer.


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## letsemwalk (Nov 16, 2008)

deerbuster said:


> I think it may be that some of us are pressuring the deer too much...Or taking to many deer.




x 2


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## kowkiller (Nov 16, 2008)

1. Limit is to high we are killing too many does

2. Too many coyotes 

3. Every oak tree I have seen this year is full of food!!


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## coastalredneck (Nov 16, 2008)

it doesnt matter how many you are allowed to kill. People dont record their harvest  because no one is checking.  People just dont care anymore..


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## BIGWALK (Nov 16, 2008)

As a kid growing up hunting in Taliaferro, you did not go down there and not see deer. Even as a kid riding four-wheelers like crazy, playing with the dogs, yelling and laughing with my brother, and all the other shenanigans that kids do, you still managed to see a few. You could go spotlight the fields at night and see thirty or forty out in a wheat field eating. Our place was covered with tracks and deer sign. Recent years have brought less deer, but I still managed to see or at least kill one or two does a year. Now, however, my place looks like a barren wasteland. You can kill does all season long where I hunt and I think that it has hurt the hunting and made them almost nocturnal. I am a firm believer that being able to LEGALLY kill ten does and two bucks a year has decimated the population. The only time that I see deer is as I drive around Dahlonega at dusk. Something needs to be done!


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## quality hunter (Nov 16, 2008)

My opinion when I was younger all I wanted to do was kill as many deer as I could with a limit beeing five. Now I am older and mature I want to kill a more mature deer. I think alot of your younger crowd are killing machines and they do not understand if you shoot it them they will not exist. It so tough to see a deer nowdays when someone finally does they shoot so that does not help either. Trophy managing is worthless in a low population like Heard county. You go several weeks without seeing  a deer and finally see a 2.5 year old 8 point bam you will never have many trophies in this county.


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## dgr416 (Nov 16, 2008)

*Offical "Why We Are Seeing Less Deer"*

There are several reasons we are seeing less deer.The first is the increased limit has reduced the population  and the pressure makes them more nocturnal and they find safe havens where no one hunts.There are more deer around Cummings where I live than ion Morgan county where my farm is or it seems.The deer here around Cumming have very little pressure and alot of people that have land dont let anyone hunt.The land in Morgan county is hunted tirelessly and the does dot hang around.I have only sdeen bucks on my land this year no does.I have only seen 3 bucks total.I use to see 300-500 deer a year on this same land.I put out trail cams in several spots and got very few deer pictures.I also looked at crossings and noticed alot fewer tracks.Last week I noticed mushrooms uneaten in large numbers.This is a big sign of less or no deer in the area.we have very few or no acorns this year.With no food besides the rye grass I planted which has not had that much rain the deer look for easy food and safe havens on property thats not hunted .I swear its like going back to the low populaions of 1968 the first year I hunted in Georgia.With no does to reproduce there are no deer to eat the acorns when they finally make.Friends who hunted my land in the early 80s and early 90s can tell you how many deer there use to be.Now sitting in a tree for two months with 5-7 deer a year is no fun.I am a diehard hunter but it gets old fast.I saw the same thing on Pedimont National Wildlife Refudge last and this year.There are a few areas that are over populated usually ones that cant be hunted.The F&G is estimating the 1.2 million deer in Georgia.Yes as they become more nocturnal more get hit by cars at night.But we are seeing was less deer than we use to.I have hunted Georgia for deer 40 years and my dad hunted it about 10 years before I did.Our woods are pretty empty these days.If I only see three does a year I usually let them walk .The last couple of years I have seen none.I know thats its time to thin our trees to produce undergrowth but you need a base population of does to build it.There are way less deer now than there were on our farm.Yes there are a few big bucks but waiting all season to see one deer gets old after a while.I think the doe limit needs to go back to two and the doe days reduced to 5 at the most so the good old days will come back.


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## gamechaser (Nov 16, 2008)

Limit is to high.I put a stand up last year in a high traffic area and many deer were killed on that stand. Since opening weekend sign has vanished in that area. Opening weekend there must have at least been 75 to 100 shots total  360 degrees around me for the entire weekend. This drastically reduced the deer per square mile ratio in that area. I watched 4 does and a buck yesterday down in a thick bottom for an hour and they all were very nervous acting. They seem to have moved to the thick travel trails for more security.


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## kowkiller (Nov 16, 2008)

In the 90's when I hunted Meriweather county you could just drive around for an hour and you would see about 100 deer! Not any more I have only seen 10 deer all season long and I want shoot a doe now days.


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## Thebody (Nov 16, 2008)

A lot of it depends on the area.  Some places are loaded and need to be thinned.  The areas close to cities are loaded and sightings are high.  There just are not that many hunters who are fortunate enough to get access to some of those areas.  And those that do covet them and guard them closely.  

I think part of the problem is too many hunters think they have to drop the hammer to be successful.  I have heard far too many people say that "I have to take 5 does per year because we don't eat beef".  If you really have to kill five deer, you need a second job not more time in the woods.  If you were hunting 1,000 acres and 10 people shot five does each.....no more deer soon.  

Short of a crop destruction problem, why would anyone feel they have to kill a deer.  That's too much like work.  We have had it good for years where deer were plentiful, but aggressive harvests are taking there toll.  

It has to be managed, whether it's taking more deer or less it depends on the property.  A property I know of required that the manager take 30 does this year to balance things out.  Not a problem there, but in areas that are hunted by more hunters it would be devastating to take that many deer.


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## Public Land Prowler (Nov 16, 2008)

Well some people take a dozen off of one small piece of land,and some people spread it out.If I only hunted 1 small piece of land I wouldn't take but maybe 2 or 3.Since I hunt 16 different WMA's ranging from 5k to 21k acres,a piece of public land about 280K acres,and a few NWR's I am not hurting the deer population...I don't see the problem with spreading it out,but it doesn't make sense to take 10 or 11 off of a 400 acre farm/lease.They won't last long like that.


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## Arrow3 (Nov 16, 2008)

HandgunHTR said:


> My theory is that we are not looking hard enough.  With the encroachment of civilization to most of the areas that we hunt, the deer have moved to the thicker parts of the woods.
> Most guys don't want to hunt somewhere they can't drive their ATV or truck to, so they see less deer.



I don't buy that...I haven't forgotten how to hunt or scout..I have one of the nicest pieces of land to hunt that Oconee County has to offer....The deer population has went near to nothing over the last 2 years over there..


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## Milkman (Nov 16, 2008)

Let me insert this, One of the tracts I hunt is in northern Taliaferro county. In early Sept . I put a camera in a spot under fruit trees to see what was using there. The camera captured pictures of 8 different bucks within 1 week. ALL were at night  ,Remember this was before season began.

*None *of the 8 bucks filmed have been seen since season began.


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## Mako22 (Nov 16, 2008)

Limit might be too high but I am sure that 10 years of severe drought has done more than anything else to lower the herd numbers.

Read this.
http://www.noble.org/AG/Wildlife/DeerandDrought/index.html


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## Milkman (Nov 16, 2008)

Woodsman69 said:


> Limit might be too high but I am sure that 10 years of severe drought has done more than anything else to lower the herd numbers.



I hadnt thought of that one..............
Give us more insight on what you think the drought has done to the deer population


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## kowkiller (Nov 16, 2008)

Are yall seeing alot of acorns this year? I am this could cause less movement.


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## Mako22 (Nov 16, 2008)

kowkiller said:


> Are yall seeing alot of acorns this year? I am this could cause less movement.



Not to be rude but the too many acorns excuse is played every year on this forum and I don't think that is the reason.


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## Milkman (Nov 16, 2008)

kowkiller said:


> Are yall seeing alot of acorns this year? I am this could cause less movement.



Most of the trees where I hunt in Taliaferro didnt make acorns this year. Almost a total loss on the acorn crop. But our sightings have been down on that tract for the last 3 years.


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## Mako22 (Nov 16, 2008)

Milkman said:


> I hadnt thought of that one..............
> Give us more insight on what you think the drought has done to the deer population



I added an article in my post above you may want to read. Drought stresses deer and studies have shown that Does will actually have more miscariages and more fawns will die during severe drought conditions. Last year in Grady county the rain fall was so low that the farmers were short on hay for their cattle. if the pastures hay production is down then one would think that what the deer eat might be down also. I know the trees are loaded with acorns but they don't eat acorns year round.


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## kowkiller (Nov 16, 2008)

Woodsman69 said:


> Not to be rude but the too many acorns excuse is played every year on this forum and I don't think that is the reason.


What is your IDEA????


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## Mako22 (Nov 16, 2008)

kowkiller said:


> What is your IDEA????



I just don't believe that acorns is why I am not seeing deer like I used to.  I used to see a bunch of deer on my morning drive to work but the last 2 years I hardly see any deer at all. I really believe that this drought is a major reason why.


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## kowkiller (Nov 16, 2008)

Woodsman69 said:


> I just don't believe that acorns is why I am not seeing deer like I used to.  I used to see a bunch of deer on my morning drive to work but the last 2 years I hardly see any deer at all. I really believe that this drought is a major reason why.


I never thought of the drought very good point!


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## Arrow3 (Nov 16, 2008)

Me and Hunter Haven had 200 acres in Wilkes County about 6-8 years ago....On our drive from Crawford to Tignall it wasn't uncommon to see between 20-40 deer on the roads....I now have a club in Wilkes County again...I don't think I have seen a deer all season on the drive down or back home...


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## gamechaser (Nov 16, 2008)

I am seeing a lot of fawn pairs. We have a creek near by that hasn't gone dry yet. White oak and live oaks dominate our woods not to mention soy beans been planted along with rotating out with wheat. Neighbors planted peanuts this year. In other words we have had plenty of food and water. And a heck of a lot of shots were fired around us. I just hope the ten pointer I past up last week will makes  it thru the season.


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## Mako22 (Nov 16, 2008)

kowkiller said:


> I never thought of the drought very good point!



You mentioned coyotes in a post above and I would agree with you that with a drought coyotes could reduce the herd a good bit. Two summers ago I saw several ponds in Grady county go bone dry along with most small creeks. Some ponds were deep and they held a little water maybe 1 foot of water on one end but I saw where the deer were beating a path to these holes. So if all the ponds within say 250 acres are dry except for one deep pond then the deer will congregate there and so will the yotes. Remember those pics in the news of Lake Lanier last summer, docks high and dry, boat ramps closed, this drought has a lot to do with the low deer numbers IMO.


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## quality hunter (Nov 16, 2008)

It will never get better until they lower the limit


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## BIGWALK (Nov 16, 2008)

Milkman said:


> Let me insert this, One of the tracts I hunt is in northern Taliaferro county. In early Sept . I put a camera in a spot under fruit trees to see what was using there. The camera captured pictures of 8 different bucks within 1 week. ALL were at night  ,Remember this was before season began.
> 
> *None *of the 8 bucks filmed have been seen since season began.



Our spot on the Taliaferro/Wilkes border is the same. I put a camera up several weeks before season and got pictures of several does and several small to mid-size bucks. Everyone of them was at night and at least an hour from sunup or sundown. Makes it kind of hard to hunt!


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## kowkiller (Nov 16, 2008)

I read a study that was conducted in S.C. and they radio collarded 12 fawns and 10 where killed by coyotes. Not very good odds I have killed 3 coyotes the last two years I had never seen one until 5 years ago.


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## Public Land Prowler (Nov 16, 2008)

Arrow3 said:


> I don't buy that...I haven't forgotten how to hunt or scout..I have one of the nicest pieces of land to hunt that Oconee County has to offer....The deer population has went near to nothing over the last 2 years over there..


Bran didn't you pop like 8 does on 1 piece of property with the bow last year?


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## Arrow3 (Nov 16, 2008)

Public Land Prowler said:


> Bran didn't you pop like 8 does on 1 piece of property with the bow last year?



No...I killed 6 in 3 different countys.....This tract of land im talking about is over 100 acres that I hunt basically by myself....I would be willing to bet that there isn't 10 deer on the whole place right now....I just had 4 cameras out over there.


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## BowHunter89 (Nov 16, 2008)

The biggest problem I see is there is no punishment for poaching. You could set the limit at 3 does and 1 buck per year and the people who slaughter the deer every year are still going to do so because they can get away with it with no problems. I personally know people who are like this, one guy will only shoot bucks and he will kill 5-6 per season just to say he killed them. Basically it boils down to no one cares anymore.


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## Public Land Prowler (Nov 16, 2008)

10 deer on 100 acres is pretty good.We have 200 and might have 6 deer on it.


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## Arrow3 (Nov 16, 2008)

Public Land Prowler said:


> 10 deer on 100 acres is pretty good.We have 200 and might have 6 deer on it.



I don't consider 10 (if theres that many) good for over 100 acres.


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## backroads_n_GA (Nov 16, 2008)

I got back into hunting this year and got back in the same club I was in before.  I'm not seeing near the number of deer that I saw in 2001-2002 and 2002-2003 seasons.  I talked to the club president and he said that they had a group from Florida (this is not knocking the Florida hunters) and they shot every deer they saw, fawns included, until they got their limit.  They were not invited back and he said that the deer herd is getting better in the two years they have  been gone.  Something to the limit too high therory I think.  Combine this with the drought and you may have something concrete going.  The carrying capacity of the land is greatly affected by drought.  I very seriously doubt that DNR will change the limit because of the pressure from insurance companies.  Therefore, it is our responsibility to take matters into our own hands.  Meet with you club members, have joint meetings with surrounding clubs and adopt a harvest limit based on YOUR area.  This way, if your AREA has plenty of deer, harvest all you want.  But I truely believe that the deer herd in more areas than not have declined significantly.  If we don't manage our individual situation, we will lose something that is very valuable to us...our heritage.


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## rjk187 (Nov 16, 2008)

10 does a year most definately doesnt help, I wouldnt mind seeing the limit a 5 again.


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## dchfm123 (Nov 16, 2008)

Lord I love reading the tears in this thread.

We are not killing any more does now than 10 years ago.  The percentage of hunters that kill more than they can eat is very low, most hunters kill 2 or less does a year.  I know more hunters that do not harvest any does than I do that kill them.  In 2001-2002 we killed 202,000 does, last year we killed 194000 does.  Did anything change with the doe tag change, nope.    In 2001-2002 there were 294619 licenses sold, in 2007-2008 there were 241000 licenses sold.  Same amount of deer killed with fewer hunters seems people are seeing and harvesting the same amount of deer.  The interesting thing is that the amount of does harvested per Hunter has not changed by more than 1 or 2 percent, but the amount of 2.5 year old bucks has doubled.  QDM at its best.

People can argue all day long about this but the fact is that numbers don't lie.  The numbers also show that in 1970 hunters spent an average of 41 days in the woods to harvest one doe, compared to last year 13 days to harvest one doe.  If hunting was so bad then why do hunter spend one third less time in the woods to harvest a doe?  I think that the big difference is pressure from hunters.  There is half the hunt able land that there used to be and 10 times the hunters in the woods as there was 30 years ago.  That puts a major amount of pressure on the deer.  The deer are there, they have just become smarter and move less during the daytime.  I personally pay a lot to hunt in clubs that have a very high acre to hunter ratio.  I am in a club with 30 members that hunts on more than 10000 acres.  I am also in another club that has 5 members on 920 acres, we kill 30 plus does a year(members and family) and I can still go hunt a food plot and see 15+ deer on it every evening.  I can go sit in the woods and see deer every time I go out.  These are the benefits of joining a quality club and hunting private land.  Some clubs I see have 30 to 50 members on 1000 acres.  This amount of people and such small amounts of land will run the deer into the ground and they will never crawl out.  Join a quality club on quality land and you will have a different opinion of the deer in GA.


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## Jeff Phillips (Nov 16, 2008)

The WRD's long range plan calls for a serious reduction of the deer herd. They set the doe limit at 10. Many idiots think that means they should shoot every doe they see. I have seen posts on here that said "DNR wants us to kill 10 does"

The herd is way down. Nocturnal deer leave tracks on muddy roads. Tracks are also way down.

It's pretty simple. We cut back on the doe harvest or be satisfied seeing a lot fewer deer.

Of course when our kids decide just sitting in the woods not seeing anything is not worth it they will quit hunting. The herd will boom again, but there won't be enough hunters left to keep it under control.


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## dchfm123 (Nov 16, 2008)

BowHunter89 said:


> The biggest problem I see is there is no punishment for poaching. You could set the limit at 3 does and 1 buck per year and the people who slaughter the deer every year are still going to do so because they can get away with it with no problems. I personally know people who are like this, one guy will only shoot bucks and he will kill 5-6 per season just to say he killed them. Basically it boils down to no one cares anymore.



 Well sound like you need to turn him in.  I think the Slogan is TURN IN POACHERS Followed by this number 1-800-241-4113.  If it is such a concern turn them in.  You could be punished by law if you had this info of larger crimes and did not report the law breaker to the police.


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## BowHunter89 (Nov 16, 2008)

dchfm123 said:


> Well sound like you need to turn him in.  I think the Slogan is TURN IN POACHERS Followed by this number 1-800-241-4113.  If it is such a concern turn them in.  You could be punished by law if you had this info of larger crimes and did not report the law breaker to the police.



How would they prove anything? I have considered turning people in but I can't see where it will do anything in theses situations. With a reoccurring night hunting problem I can see but trying to catch someone at this is pointless. Maybe I will though I guess you can only try...

And I am confused how did this get turned on me?


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## Nitro (Nov 16, 2008)

Arrow3 said:


> I don't consider 10 (if theres that many) good for over 100 acres.



FWIW, 10 on 100 acres would translate into over 60 deer per square mile which by most accounts would put the property into the "extremely high" deer density range.


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## dchfm123 (Nov 16, 2008)

If you dont try, nothing will change.  If Mr. Green Jeans visits the person killing to bucks he may slow down a bit.  They are very tricky.  All they need is a good reason and they will be on him like white on rice.


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## BIGHORN26 (Nov 16, 2008)

I see deer EVERY time I go to the woods. I went this evening and saw 3 big does and 4 fawns and shot a 4 1/2 year old 8 point that weighed 215 lbs. On the way home I saw a six pt. and 8 does and almost hit a yearling on the way home from the processer. That makes 18 deer from 4 pm until 10 pm. I don't know why there are less sightings of deer for you guys. I hunt 80 acres in Cherokee co. and I have had hunts where I've seen up to 30 deer on several occations in the past 4 years.


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## Arrow3 (Nov 16, 2008)

Nitro said:


> FWIW, 10 on 100 acres would translate into over 60 deer per square mile which by most accounts would put the property into the "extremely high" deer density range.



Well, ive hunted the property 6 times this year and haven't seen the first deer...4 years ago I would see 3-7 nearly every sitting.


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## dchfm123 (Nov 16, 2008)

How bout a picture Bighorn?


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## JR (Nov 16, 2008)

For us, we're getting out baited.


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## larpyn (Nov 16, 2008)

we have some free running dogs that have been in and out of our club since bow season. 
they seem to affect the deer sightings. they run deer constantly from sun up to well after dark sometimes.


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## BIGHORN26 (Nov 16, 2008)

I will post pics as soon as I get them loaded.


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## Nitro (Nov 16, 2008)

Arrow3 said:


> Well, ive hunted the property 6 times this year and haven't seen the first deer...4 years ago I would see 3-7 nearly every sitting.



That's my point. Most everyone I hunt with has been experiencing the same thing. Not many sightings (or kills) on formerly great land. 

My SC club is at about 30 deer less than this time last year. I have killed two. I have seen waaaay less deer numbers. Granted, the quality of the Bucks we are seeing and killing are up, but the sheer number of deer sightings is down. 

I'll be interested in reading what the State's WRD/DNR position on this is.......


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## SlipperyHill Mo (Nov 16, 2008)

Pretty simple.......

We have killed too many in the past years.


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## dchfm123 (Nov 16, 2008)

Nitro said:


> That's my point. Most everyone I hunt with has been experiencing the same thing. Not many sightings (or kills) on formerly great land.
> 
> My SC club is at about 30 deer less than this time last year. I have killed two. I have seen waaaay less deer numbers. Granted, the quality of the Bucks we are seeing and killing are up, but the sheer number of deer sightings is down.
> 
> I'll be interested in reading what the State's WRD/DNR position on this is.......



The dont see a problem and the posted numbers show that there is not a problem, becasue there is not one.  There are more deer in the state now than 10 years ago.  We have the highest population ever.  read up on it, you will see.  Read my other post.


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## Public Land Prowler (Nov 17, 2008)

The deer that walk into foodplots,cross powerlines,and gas lines,and roads are thinned out...The only deer left are the ones that stay in the woods...lol

Same principle as all the turkeys that gobble are thinned out,so the ones left (by genetics) don't gobble..lol


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## yelper43 (Nov 17, 2008)

Imho we do not need a 10 doe limit in georgia. What we need is a few more years to establish the bucks age. We are making steps forward but we absolutely need age on our deer herd. This november i saw a fawn feeding from a doe once the creme rises to the top we will have a better season. Remember we have one of the longest seasons in the good ole u.s.a.


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## Public Land Prowler (Nov 17, 2008)

Ya know alot of people don't realize..Back in the old days people would drive from miles around to ooogle at a deer track,People took professional pics of gobblers if they got one...We are spoiled...

You want bigger bucks in ga?Thin out the does.Lower population of deer means healthier deer,and bigger bucks.Down here we had tons of does,and scrappy little bucks..Now we have a few does,and scrappy bucks..lol..Seriously everyone around here has noticed the deer herd improve,although there are fewer deer.

Average doe,or 1.5yr old buck 5 years ago was around 80#,now they go almost 100#

Average 4.5yr old buck was 90",now they are around 100"

Average monster buck was 115",now they are getting a few 130's

Anyone can still kill a deer every year.


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## swamphawg (Nov 17, 2008)

You have to ask yourself what your goals of hunting a deer are. Do you want to kill a big quality buck or see deer every time you sit in the stand? The two in a natural environment, particularly in the Southeast, do not go hand in hand. The more does you kill, the bigger bucks you will see. That is a fact. The less does you kill, the more deer you will see but the herd quality will be not as high. It's a trade off either way. I do think the coyotes and drought are hurting the population. But I have a hard time believing they're being overkilled. I could be wrong though.


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## Parker Phoenix (Nov 17, 2008)

1) Urban sprawl
2)In the past years farmers have gotten away from growing food crops, cotton,cotton,and more cotton. With the demand for corn,peanuts, and soybeans rising again that may help.
3) Pine trees replacing what use to be oaks. It takes a lot of food to sustain a large deer herd.


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## sgtstinky (Nov 17, 2008)

I'm seeing deer, I don't think its as bad as you all say. But if it is, I think we can attribute the decline in deer sightings/sign to factors other than what we are doing as a population of hunters. My gut feeling would be the drought.


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## nickel back (Nov 17, 2008)

well at the club I'm in we have set 5 deer limt that is working  well... 

I do like the doe days through out season that way I'm not presured to shoot when I see one I know I have time to take one later in the year...I hope

to many people are to quick to pull the trigger

we need to teach the kids what hunting is...and that it is not just about killing every thing you see

we as hunters need to mang. our deer heard


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## Troy Butler (Nov 17, 2008)

They (the dnr need not lower the limit we the huters need to lower the limit on our land we hunt). This thing started when the dnr raised the limit to 8 and started this qdm thing I know that qdm is not about taking all the does you can but alot of people have put the two to gether. The club I am in now has the limit set at five deer they did this after the dnr raised the limit to 8 not every one will kill five or even two does they chose to shoot a good buck only because they dont eat much deer meat.  I have seen deer just about every time I have been to the woods bucks and does.  Let raise the limit to twenty and four bucks and see if this helps ( just Kidding).
   I will tell the duck hunters out there if we shoot three hens every time we go the wood ducks will  be just like the deer herd. Just because the limit is set we should not fell like we have to meet the limit to be a man. Troy


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## Hammack (Nov 17, 2008)

Well in my area, I personally have not seen a decline.  I also don;t feel the 10 doe limit is to much.   Just because you have a 10 doe limit doesn't mean that you will shoot 10 just because you can regardless of what some people believe.  The majority of hunters I run across will only take 3 maybe 4 a year.  It's up to individuals to decide what a reasonable harvest is based on where they hunt.  If deer are not being seen because of too many being killed then it's the own people's fault.  There's no reason for areas who can sustain a 10 doe limit to be reduced because others can't manage for themselves.  I still believe that MOST area that are seeing less deer is due to pressure or drought conditions.  One of the main reasons that my place has been as good as it has this year is because of the water supply.  Almost all of the creeks around here were dry, and ponds were also.  I had two cow troughs that are still connected to a water source even though the pasture has long been planted in pines.  I used them as a mineral lick area and you would not believe the amount of traffic these two areas have seen over the summer months simply due to lack of surround water sources.


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## Buford_Dawg (Nov 17, 2008)

*Bingo!!!!*



Jeff Phillips said:


> The WRD's long range plan calls for a serious reduction of the deer herd. They set the doe limit at 10. Many idiots think that means they should shoot every doe they see. I have seen posts on here that said "DNR wants us to kill 10 does"
> 
> The herd is way down. Nocturnal deer leave tracks on muddy roads. Tracks are also way down.
> 
> ...



Jeff hit the nail on the head.  Unfortunately, my 12 year old son decided to stay home this weekend, that caught me by surprise, I asked why, he said because we don't have any deer on our land.  He is about right .  I wished folks could hold off shooting everything in site, but it appears most hunters have a happy trigger finger.


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## dchfm123 (Nov 17, 2008)

if you have to many does the over all heard will suffer, and your buck sightings will drop.  There is no part of the state that the population is down, only miss managed and overpreasured land.  Learn to control your deer heard and you will see more deer.  There are more deer in the state right now than ever before, so please stop crying to us on the forums, join a quality club, and have some fun hunting.


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## Milkman (Nov 17, 2008)

dchfm123 said:


> to control your deer heard and you will see more deer.  There are more deer in the state right now than ever before, so please stop crying to us on the forums, join a quality club, and have some fun hunting.




This thread is about less deer sightings and the question is what are your theories of why there are less sightings.


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## dawg2 (Nov 17, 2008)

Milkman said:


> This thread is about less deer sightings and the question is what are your theories of why there are less sightings.



They are going nocturnal.  But I think that has more to do with our milder winters, but I believe this one will be colder so maybe it will chnage.


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## Jeff Phillips (Nov 17, 2008)

dchfm123 said:


> if you have to many does the over all heard will suffer, and your buck sightings will drop.  There is no part of the state that the population is down, only miss managed and overpreasured land.  Learn to control your deer heard and you will see more deer.  There are more deer in the state right now than ever before, so please stop crying to us on the forums, join a quality club, and have some fun hunting.



Please provide us with the source of this bit of wisdom.


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## Cane_Creek (Nov 17, 2008)

I don't think it's higher limits, loss of habitat, or hunting pressure.

One word - Coyotes

65% of fawns are being killed by coyotes (according to some studies).  Much fewer fawns making into the population for us to see during hunting season.

I've hunted the same 1000 acre track in SC for 15 years.  This property, and the bordering properties, have seen little to no change in habitat.  Very little timbering, ZERO development, Limited pressure (only 4 guys hunt it).  Believe me, we don't over harvest the deer.  20-25 deer a season was the normal harvest.  Before the coyote moved in we saw plenty of deer, plenty of fawns, tons of deer sign.  That has all changed.  Less deer sightings, less fawn sightings (even on scouting cameras), deer harvest went to about 12-15 deer a year.

The only change in 15 years was the onslaught of the coyote.


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## Bruz (Nov 17, 2008)

It really depends on the property I believe. So far this year I have seen 31 Deer and taken 2 mature Does for meat on our little 300 acre farm in Washington County. Granted......This property hasn't been hunted in 3 years and has never been leased before.

The break down is as follows....

7 - 1.5 year old Bucks
1 - 2.5 year old Buck
1-  3.5+ year old Buck
13 - Mature Doe (Killed 2)
9 - Fawns

As a club we have taken........

2 - 1.5 Year Old Bucks (3 and 6 pointers.....Both taken by kids and one was a first Buck)
1 - Fawn (Button Buck)
5 - Mature Does

Robert


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## Fortenberry (Nov 17, 2008)

I hunt three different counties and Two of those I see very few deer on. One has either sex all season and One has alot of doe days. I also hunt in union county which only has a couple of doe days. I always see deer there. I may not always see a buck, but I normally see atleast ten does. That is everytime I go. I really think that there are to many doe days in most places or limit the number you can take.


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## Twenty five ought six (Nov 17, 2008)

> .I have one of the nicest pieces of land to hunt that Oconee County has to offer....The deer population has went near to nothing over the last 2 years over there..



Amen to that.  It may be a localized problem, but there's no question in my mind that increased pressure = less deer.  When we first started hunting our Oconee County property, there was one house within a mile, and two old maid sisters lived there.  Now there are probably three dozen houses, and half of them or more are popping deer.

I'm basing my judgment not just on sightings, but the same kind of data DNR uses.  Tracks, pressure on feed plots, etc.  Used to, our food plots look like putting greens, there was so much pressure.  Not they get up ankle high.  You can see that they are being browsed some, but you don't see the tracks and droppings like you used to.  Same with tracks, you would see the road torn up at certain crossing spots, now you hardly see tracks.

As far as sightings, I probably had a 90% sighting rate, and that was in woods as thick as they could be.  Now that sighting rate is in the 30% category.

We actually have much better habitat and feed, and see many less deer.

I also think that where you have a lot of people hunting small tracts, the "honor system" of tagging just does not work.  I know one adjacent landowner who invites in some out of state buddies every year to "shoot a few deer", and no licenses are purchased or tags filled out.  Four people shooting 3 deer each has as much impact as one shooting 12.


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## dchfm123 (Nov 17, 2008)

Jeff Phillips said:


> Please provide us with the source of this bit of wisdom.




Do a little research on the DNR pages and you can find it, I also posted some of the stats on the first page post 44.  Two of the clubs that I am in have biologists that do year round research on the property's as well as many other locations around the state.  I get my info from long discussions with them and research of my own on the web and with cameras.

The reason for killing of does is simple.  1 - its less mouths in the woods which means more food for the deer that are there.  This will help you grow a healthier heard and bigger bucks. 2 - The fewer does you have means that the bucks will have to travel more to find the does, and the bucks will be more aggressive during the rut.  If your a Trophy Hunter, or have dreams of killing a nice buck this will definitely increase your odds.  Those that complain that they had a Trickle Rut or missed the rut its because you most likely have to many does, and the bucks don't have to even try to find the does.  

All three of the properties that I Hunt have a very close buck to doe ratio, during the pre rut, rut, and early post rut all I have to do to see a few bucks is bang the ol horns together and the bucks come running.  This is because of the competition that having fewer does creates.  

Believe me the deer are there, put out some trail cameras and you will see.  I agree that some parts of the state are better than others but that does not mean that hunters have killed off the heard.  I bet most of the people that are complaining are hunting areas of the stat that used to have tons of hardwoods and farms are now covered up in pines.  There is not enough food in these areas to support a large heard, so the deer move on.  Next year spend a little and join a club in a good county or an area that is not covered up with pine plantations and you will see that the deer are still here.


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## BCondor77 (Nov 17, 2008)

coyotes are a major issue.  Bobcats are also a problem and a predator to the fawns.


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## DYI hunting (Nov 17, 2008)

Around the house, a local club has tried to do QDM by killing lots of does.  Problem is, the good ole' boys nearby shoot anything with horns.  So we end up with few does and yearling bucks.  The ground is covered in acorns, persimmions, and apples, just rotting away.


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## boothy (Nov 17, 2008)

there are still plenty of deer on my lease in troup county see about 5 or 6 just about everytime out.  and there is more year round food and browse in a pine plantation than there is in an oak forest. acorns are only around for a couple of months then nothing.


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## simpleman30 (Nov 17, 2008)

near the coast, it seems that my club is seeing and killing more deer than ever before.  of course, we are a deer dog club and we are much like the above referenced good ol boys that kill anything with horns.  last season, our 35 member club that hunts a 6200 acre piece of land killed 75.  that's an average of just over 2 deer per hunter.  of those deer, the ratio of bucks to doe's killed was almost 1 to 1.  we have killed more deer this season than we did last year at the same time.  last year was the most successful year in the 40+ years that this club has been around, except one year that 99 were killed when deer hunting with dogs was permitted on the neighboring military installation.


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## Three Little Birds... (Nov 17, 2008)

I am in a club of 800+ acres and we don't see a lot of deer mainly due to, I believe, a lack of water and food.  It is primarily a timber tract of pine.  On the opposite of this, I own a small piece of land that is 27 acres, 1/2 pasture and 1/2 hardwood with a creek and river frontage on it, and I see deer every time I am in the woods.  It is surrounded by farms and water.   Why live in the desert when you can live next to a river?  Hunt where the food, water and cover are and you will more deer.  Limit is too high and pressure also has to do with it, but food / water is the main thing in my humble opinion....


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## j_seph (Nov 17, 2008)

I feel it is the over harvesting of deer that is dropped our deer sigthings so low. You know they type, if its brown its down kinda folks. The bad part of this is that a lot of the BID folks are complaining and yet still if it comes by and its brown it's shot. I hunt 1400 acres in Hall county, since bow season I have seen 5, can count em on one hand, deer.


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## j_seph (Nov 17, 2008)

nickel back said:


> we need to teach the kids what hunting is...and that it is not just about killing every thing you see
> 
> we as hunters need to mang. our deer heard


 I can agree to that, although it sure is hard to get a kid interested in deer hunting when they don't see deer, heck sometimes I'd rather be at home playing a video game then freezing my butt off, knowing I will 90% chance, not see a deer


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## Milkman (Nov 17, 2008)

Great responses and discussion....... Keep the ideas coming  

What about ticks?  Diseases? Are they killing the deer too?


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## Silent Assassin (Nov 17, 2008)

When they took the limits up and did away withdoe days it put a tremendous amount of pressure on our doe herd with the rut and hunting pressure as well.


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## PoBoy (Nov 17, 2008)

Because nobody at the DNR cares about the deer heard.

Keep shooting does guys at these high rates, it will soon get very quiet in the countryside.


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## head shot (Nov 17, 2008)

I think people are killing too many does and young deer. What in the world is a guy really going to do with 10 does? That's ridiculous.


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## Stingray23 (Nov 17, 2008)

I think *dchfm's* post made more sense. I've been saying for years that they're getting smarter and folks want to continue to blame coyotes and excessive doe limits as the sole reason for the presumed decline.


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## dchfm123 (Nov 17, 2008)

boothy said:


> there are still plenty of deer on my lease in troup county see about 5 or 6 just about everytime out.  and there is more year round food and browse in a pine plantation than there is in an oak forest. acorns are only around for a couple of months then nothing.



That browse only lasts 2 or 3 years until the pines get about 6 feet tall and start choking it out, then it takes another 10 before it is thined and light starts getting in to allow it to grow up again and at this point about all that grows is grapes and mushrooms.


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## whchunter (Nov 17, 2008)

*Agree*



Woodsman69 said:


> Limit might be too high but I am sure that 10 years of severe drought has done more than anything else to lower the herd numbers.
> 
> Read this.
> http://www.noble.org/AG/Wildlife/DeerandDrought/index.html



I think Woodsman69 hit it closer than anyone. Limits are higher but in most of the areas I hunt very very few hunters kill more than 2 or at the most 4 deer per year. Most hunt for racks and not food. If you decrease food, most wildlife will self monitor themselves. They have fewer young because they know there isn't sufficient food and water to support more. Also the young that are born (if poorly nourished) have less chance of surviving. Again as previously posted, if you have two adjoining tracts and one has water and abundent food that is where the majority of the deer will be. If you're seeing fewer deer, put out water and food suppliments through out the year and see if you don't see more deer next year.


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## boothy (Nov 17, 2008)

dchfm123 said:


> That browse only lasts 2 or 3 years until the pines get about 6 feet tall and start choking it out, then it takes another 10 before it is thined and light starts getting in to allow it to grow up again and at this point about all that grows is grapes and mushrooms.



wrong. thinned pines have abundant food and browse.


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## win280 (Nov 17, 2008)

Arrow3 said:


> No...I killed 6 in 3 different countys.....This tract of land im talking about is over 100 acres that I hunt basically by myself....I would be willing to bet that there isn't 10 deer on the whole place right now....I just had 4 cameras out over there.



 that would be 64 deer per square mile. Most biologist are saying 30 per square mile in West central Ga..
  A lot of people are getting pics at night of deer only to not see them during the day.
Is it weather,drought, loss of habitat,smarter deer?I',m not a biologist, but would say that it is a combination of many factors.


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## Jeff Phillips (Nov 17, 2008)

dchfm123 said:


> Do a little research on the DNR pages and you can find it...



I thought that was what you were going to say.

Sorry, but the WRD has very little credibility with me. I'm not buying what they are selling.

You said in your earlier post that we have more deer than ever. WRD says the population is down

You say a smaller doe population makes for a better rut, with more seeking. If the few does get breed during the 1st couple of days of the rut, the rut is over.

There are still pockets of great hunting in Georgia, but they are getting real hard to come by. If you are in a club in one of those pockets consider yourself lucky!


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## PoBoy (Nov 17, 2008)

The long term plan for the DNR is to have the deer heard in Ga under 600,000 by 2015.  they are on their way.


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## swamphawg (Nov 17, 2008)

dchfm123 said:


> Do a little research on the DNR pages and you can find it, I also posted some of the stats on the first page post 44.  Two of the clubs that I am in have biologists that do year round research on the property's as well as many other locations around the state.  I get my info from long discussions with them and research of my own on the web and with cameras.
> 
> The reason for killing of does is simple.  1 - its less mouths in the woods which means more food for the deer that are there.  This will help you grow a healthier heard and bigger bucks. 2 - The fewer does you have means that the bucks will have to travel more to find the does, and the bucks will be more aggressive during the rut.  If your a Trophy Hunter, or have dreams of killing a nice buck this will definitely increase your odds.  Those that complain that they had a Trickle Rut or missed the rut its because you most likely have to many does, and the bucks don't have to even try to find the does.
> 
> ...



I'm glad someone else has seen the light.


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## wtruax (Nov 17, 2008)

Could it be that most of you all are getting older and you remember the past better than it was? For the same reason most of you all were star football players in high school, and got all the girls in college. Remember when you had that 6 pack stomach? Just a theory


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## rabbithound (Nov 17, 2008)

Guys.... I have found all of the missing the deer. They are in my neighborhood! I swear I cant drive out right now w/o almost hitting one and counting between 5 and 10 if its dark. I think some of the land around us gets hunted fairly heavily, because the moment deer season kicks in we never see them during the day and we see 10 times the normal amount in the evenings

It aggravates the pure heck out of me to be driving 90 miles to Lexington to deer hunt, but it is with good friends and we have a good time, so I guess I am lucky.......but boy what I could do with a quiet gun or cross bow right now!!!!


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## nickel back (Nov 17, 2008)

nickel back said:


> well at the club I'm in we have set 5 deer limit that is working  well...
> 
> I do like the doe days through out season that way I'm not pressured to shoot when I see one I know I have time to take one later in the year...I hope
> 
> ...





j_seph said:


> I can agree to that, although it sure is hard to get a kid interested in deer hunting when they don't see deer, heck sometimes I'd rather be at home playing a video game then freezing my butt off, knowing I will 90% chance, not see a deer



yes it is hard to get kids interested in hunting...but I guess that is where I'm coming from 

we need to teach them that its hunting and not killing

you know when I think of it I bet there are a lot of adults that need to learn this.


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## dchfm123 (Nov 17, 2008)

The only thing that is keeping kids from hunting is video games.


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## CPiper (Nov 17, 2008)

The #1 thing that impacts deer density is Changes in the Habitat.
Deer density is tied directly tied and bonded to nutrition.
Land cannot support the deer density, deer density goes down. 
Land can support the deer density, deer density goes up.

It is simple - too simple - But, most hunters over complicate these things and look in strange and wierd places for answers.

A high deer density and "quality/trophy" bucks do not go hand in hand. What do you GA hunters want ..... LOTS and LOTS of deer for maximum recreational opportunity, OR, Boone and Crockett Bucks? If you opt for the later one, you want and need a low(er) deer density. Fewer deer means a healthier habitat and a healthier habitat means healthier deer (higher body weights and bigger antlers).
Reducing the overall deer density, AND allowing more bucks to reach maturity places less strain and stress on the younger bucks, allowing them to mature better ... but that is a whole nuther topic ... maybe tomorrow?!


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## nickel back (Nov 17, 2008)

CPiper said:


> The #1 thing that impacts deer density is Changes in the Habitat.
> Deer density is tied directly tied and bonded to nutrition.
> Land cannot support the deer density, deer density goes down.
> Land can support the deer density, deer density goes up.



I can agree with this


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## ToLog (Nov 17, 2008)

CPiper said:


> It is simple - too simple - But, most hunters over complicate these things and look in strange and wierd places for answers.




it's not possible to disagree with anything that you might suggest.

on the other hand, the poster that mentioned Henry county could have just as easily been from parts of Hall, Gwinnett, Forsyth, well, metro Atlanta, et.al.

rules & regs set the hunting "standard" or allocation.

without capacity to hunt "unhunted" lands, those lands have the capacity to serve as breeding zones to spill over and cause undue damage in local neighborhoods, while the Hunters Hands are tied?

this is a different scenario than country lands, where acre after acre is in agricultural production, or timber farms, or even wildlands?

we're all trying to do a "one size fits all" solution, when in fact, that's not the case at all, imho.


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## Jeff Phillips (Nov 17, 2008)

CPiper said:


> A high deer density and "quality/trophy" bucks do not go hand in hand. What do you GA hunters want ..... LOTS and LOTS of deer for maximum recreational opportunity, OR, Boone and Crockett Bucks?



So it's an all or nothing kind of thing?

Kill EVERY doe you see and hope to get a giant buck one or 2 times during all your years of hunting OR kill fewer does and kill a quality buck every year or 2.

Do plots and habitat minipulation increase the ability to grow deer?

There is more food available to increase the carrying capacity now than ever before.

I think you can have both, just not the extremes


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## BIGJOHNA (Nov 17, 2008)

guys i hate it that yall are not seeing many deer, but i got to tell yall that i have always belived that to see deer from a deer stand you have to be in a "deer stand". now here's what i have seen in the last week, a lil diary if i may:
mon 11-10 hoschton tract, pines, p.m hunt= 2 doe's, 1 fox
tues 11-11 hoschton tract, pines, a.m hunt= 4 does , spike ,7 ptr
wed 11-12 braselton tract hdwoods,p.m hunt= 2 does killed 9 ptr
thur = no hunt
fri 11-14 chestnut mtn tract, hdwoods, p.m. hunt= 3 does, 2 fawns 4ptr,bskt 8
sat 11-15 braselton tract, big bend stand,a.m. hunt= 3 does,2 fawns, bskt 6
sun 11-16 braselton tract, creek bottom stand, a.m. hunt= 2 does, fawn,  8 ptr
sun 11-16 braselton tract, hdwoods, p.m. hunt= 2 does, wide 6 ptr, basket 8

thats 32 deer in 7 days!!!!! well actually six days, i gave the deer a chance thusday since i killed that nine wenesday afternoon. good luck to you guys, hope yall get to see more deer.


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## Milkman (Nov 17, 2008)

BIGJOHNA said:


> guys i hate it that yall are not seeing many deer, but i got to tell yall that i have always belived that to see deer from a deer stand you have to be in a "deer stand". now here's what i have seen in the last week, a lil diary if i may:
> mon 11-10 hoschton tract, pines, p.m hunt= 2 doe's, 1 fox
> tues 11-11 hoschton tract, pines, a.m hunt= 4 does , spike ,7 ptr
> wed 11-12 braselton tract hdwoods,p.m hunt= 2 does killed 9 ptr
> ...



Bigjohn,

Congrats on all the deer  you are seeing !!!
Your places are obviosly well populated. I venture to say the areas you mention are probably a mixture of woods, pasture, and developed areas with small to medium sized woodlots.

Many of us are hunting in areas of vast forests, these areas are where most of the lowered deer populations are IMO.


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## dawg2 (Nov 17, 2008)

BIGJOHNA said:


> guys i hate it that yall are not seeing many deer, but i got to tell yall that i have always belived that to see deer from a deer stand you have to be in a "deer stand". now here's what i have seen in the last week, a lil diary if i may:
> mon 11-10 hoschton tract, pines, p.m hunt= 2 doe's, 1 fox
> tues 11-11 hoschton tract, pines, a.m hunt= 4 does , spike ,7 ptr
> wed 11-12 braselton tract hdwoods,p.m hunt= 2 does killed 9 ptr
> ...



Any pics of all those deer?


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## deercam (Nov 17, 2008)

what i would like to know is how dnr can say there were 194000 does killed last year. how can they possibly know when there is no requirment to record your harvest.the only harvest record they have is on the check in/out hunts where you record on the game lands.there may be 300000 does killed each year but how can they tell?in my home state of NC you have to call in your harvest within 24 hrs to get an authorization # to record on your tags .this gives the wildlife agency a way to keep up with how many are killed.I just cant figure out where they get there harvest data.


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## Arrow3 (Nov 17, 2008)

deercam said:


> what i would like to know is how dnr can say there were 194000 does killed last year. how can they possibly know when there is no requirment to record your harvest.the only harvest record they have is on the check in/out hunts where you record on the game lands.there may be 300000 does killed each year but how can they tell?in my home state of NC you have to call in your harvest within 24 hrs to get an authorization # to record on your tags .this gives the wildlife agency a way to keep up with how many are killed.I just cant figure out where they get there harvest data.



VERY good point....


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## Milkman (Nov 17, 2008)

deercam said:


> what i would like to know is how dnr can say there were 194000 does killed last year. how can they possibly know when there is no requirment to record your harvest.the only harvest record they have is on the check in/out hunts where you record on the game lands.there may be 300000 does killed each year but how can they tell?in my home state of NC you have to call in your harvest within 24 hrs to get an authorization # to record on your tags .this gives the wildlife agency a way to keep up with how many are killed.I just cant figure out where they get there harvest data.



Here is what C.killmaster , one of our members and a DNR Biologist posted a few days back in another thread about the harvest estimate numbers.

http://forum.gon.com/showpost.php?p=2721967&postcount=14


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## GRIZZLY63 (Nov 17, 2008)

What i think is that in the late 80s and early 90s there was articles written about the most populated counties in th state what that does is put dense amount of hunter in those areas. The reason i think that is before the articles where published we might see 10 hunters on the roads on the weekends but the year after that it was like somebody was redirecting i20 thru tailiferro co .we started hunting there in 1978 and always seen at least a couple of does a day now we are lucky to see a deer all season we do foodplots to try to help.also many tracts of land owned by timber co have been clearcut which is good for the first couple of years but then it gets so thick ya cant see more than 20yds.i also agree about the limit should be 5 again.


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## pnome (Nov 17, 2008)

It's my fault.  I scared em all off into Alabama and Tennessee. 





/seriously, doe limit is too high.


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## dawg2 (Nov 17, 2008)

pnome said:


> It's my fault.  I scared em all off into Alabama and Tennessee.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree.  12 is crazy. 4 would be PLENTY, I only get 2.


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## gacowboy (Nov 17, 2008)

The bottom line is we all need to attend the DNR Wildlife meetings and let our voices be heard. Most of us seem to agree that we need a decrease in either sex days and lower the limit to 4 or 5 does. 
Remember back when a doe day was something you looked forward to? We saw a lot more deer back then. More day time rutting activity too.


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## j_seph (Nov 17, 2008)

CPiper said:


> The #1 thing that impacts deer density is Changes in the Habitat.
> Deer density is tied directly tied and bonded to nutrition.
> Land cannot support the deer density, deer density goes down.
> Land can support the deer density, deer density goes up.
> ...


 The property I hunt in Hall county is between 1200 and 1400 acres, 95% hardwoods with 80% of them being oaks plus foodplots = no deer (plenty of food but no deer)

In this thread, http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=261444
plenty of food and plenty of deer,plenty trophys. Reckon this could be from having plenty of food+you can't kill 12 deer per person + extra on public land


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## j_seph (Nov 17, 2008)

nickel back said:


> yes it is hard to get kids interested in hunting...but I guess that is where I'm coming from
> 
> we need to teach them that its hunting and not killing
> 
> you know when I think of it I bet there are a lot of adults that need to learn this.


 Scenerio: I take the same kid hunting every weekend, we go Sat morning, sat evening, sunday morning, sunday evening for the whole month of November. That would be 20 sittings, no deer seen. The last Sunday evening when we get home the kid says to me, "These animals we are hunting, do they even exist"
I am afraid this will be the real life scenerio if something is not done. If some areas are overpopulated then thin some deer out, but when other areas have an extremely low population don't give everyone who hunts the opportunity to shoot 12 deer. If 2 people on the same 1200 acres shoot 12 deer that is 24 deer. That is 24 deer off of 1.88 square miles of land that=12.76 deer per square mile that is a lot of deer for a season and this is going on at several different locations. Take a kid hunting or fishing, but at the same time teach them about conserving our resources, not just the hunting and killing something


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## GRIZZLY63 (Nov 17, 2008)

Amen i have been taking my son for 2 years he has killed only one deer and it was all he has seen he loses interest because he doesnt see anything


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## SELFBOW (Nov 17, 2008)

I started a thread like this last December.
http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=159586
This year I'm on a different property and seen a fair amount but still numbers are down for me. the other guys that hunt same property see way more than me. It helps they have all the planted pines(thick) where the deer are bedding in their primary spots. I catch the wanderers on the swamp edge and road crossings and so forth.

Days they see 5 or more I'm lucky to see 1. I have gotten closer to them now and am seeing a few more.


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## dchfm123 (Nov 17, 2008)

You guys are unbelievable.  You complain that you dont see deer yet look at the truck buck page, look at the deer harvest data.  One of 2 things is happening.  Either you are in a bad area and need to look for a new club, or your a bad hunter and need to rethink and change your stratagy.  It amazes me how yall continue to say there is a problem when their is at most localized area of lower deer density.  Every state has this even the mighty texas, kansas, iowa and so on.  Not everywhere is deer hunters mecca.  If you want to see tons of deer, start hunting in an area of the state that has good deer densitys.  I am willing to bet that 80% of the people complaining hunt in the northern or southern parts of the state where it is expected to see lower deer populations.  Join a club in a county that is in the peidmont region, or has a major river basin running through it, or agriculture, or around atlanta and you will see tons of deer.  Its about where you hunt not how many are killed each year, we don't kill enough.


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## j_seph (Nov 17, 2008)

dchfm123
I think you are missing a point here! The areas some of us hunt used (key word USED) to have plenty of deer and now they don't. I hunt 200 acres in Stephens county(yes in the northern zone) I have been hunting there since 94. This property sits on the back side of Nat Forest land w/ the closest walk to the side I'm on being a mile or better, up hill and down. Some would say perfect set-up, private land, sole permission, heavily hunted NF land, deer pushed my way. It was until several years ago they opened Stephens county to the high doe days for about 2 years and raised the limits. So here comes all of the "Meat Hunters" and now it is hard to see a deer period. This land has plenty of cover and plenty of food and I have never shot too many deer off it and have seen some monster bucks back in the mid to late 90's. Looks to me that yea the Northern zone had fewer deer than mid GA(I hunt there too and same scenario) but now due to over harvesting there are definitely fewer and it will eventually catch up with the rest of the state


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## Jeff Phillips (Nov 17, 2008)

dchfm123 said:


> You guys are unbelievable.  You complain that you dont see deer yet look at the truck buck page, look at the deer harvest data.  One of 2 things is happening.  Either you are in a bad area and need to look for a new club, or your a bad hunter and need to rethink and change your stratagy.  It amazes me how yall continue to say there is a problem when their is at most localized area of lower deer density.  Every state has this even the mighty texas, kansas, iowa and so on.  Not everywhere is deer hunters mecca.  If you want to see tons of deer, start hunting in an area of the state that has good deer densitys.  I am willing to bet that 80% of the people complaining hunt in the northern or southern parts of the state where it is expected to see lower deer populations.  Join a club in a county that is in the peidmont region, or has a major river basin running through it, or agriculture, or around atlanta and you will see tons of deer.  Its about where you hunt not how many are killed each year, we don't kill enough.



What is unbelievable is there are folks who just won't listen when experianced hunters say there is a problem! Same problem we are having with WRD at their meetings. 90% plus will say that the limit is too high. They give the same lip service you are saying and nothing changes

In addition to my Taliaferro club (which I have hunted since 83) I have been in clubs in Morgan, Crawford, Monroe, and Wilkes counties during the last 8 years. Guess what, they are having similar problems. 

Maybe I'm a "bad hunter"


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## threadfin-nole (Nov 17, 2008)

I have no idea why hunters are seeing less deer but I do know that some don't know the difference between to and too.

Let me help......

" the bag limit is TOO high"

"I'm going TO the woods TO shoot TWO does and maybe a buck TOO."


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## Bambibuster21 (Nov 17, 2008)

I believe that the deer population was too high about 5 years ago, but now it is too low. The limit is too high. However, i agree that some people are going to kill more than their limit anyway. We need to have tags again instead of harvest records, they will still be abused but it makes it harder to do.  In contrast, if you ever conduct a spotlight count on your lease you will probably be surprised at how many deer are actually there. I have done several and every time I was surprised.


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## Cypress94 (Nov 18, 2008)

I haven't read all these posts, I don't honestly really have the time, but I had a thought....I'm not seeing less deer, just not as many big bucks.  And I think that is what is bothering some people, really.  So this thought occurred to me, and it's just my opinion....with QDM, we now let bucks walk more, and as they age and get smarter, they are only going to move in low light hours or at night.  Maybe this is why we see them on trail cams in the summer or on night pictures...it's not that there are fewer, but the mature populations of deer on some clubs are just more wary....just my .02.


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## burkeco9 (Nov 18, 2008)

I'm not been one time this year when i did not see one. I see on here clubs with 500 acres and 25 members that might have something to do with it.


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## Aztec (Nov 18, 2008)

Our club is 700 acres with only 7 members.  In addition there a several hundred acres around us with no hunting at all.  We also are seeing less deer.  We don't shoot very many doe deer.  only 5 in the last 2 years.  We don't belive over shooting the doe is the problem.  We are not seeing doe with single or twin fawns.  I haven't seen a doe with a fawn this year.  Lots of fawns this past summer.  They aren't making it.  Only two reasons it could be.  Drought and coyotes.  Without the fawn survival the result is less deer.


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## mathewsdxt (Nov 18, 2008)

One question for you guys?   Why do we see so many spotted fawns as late as MID november and why do we see active deer sign all the way into Turkey season in most parts of Georgia.  I, too, have seen less deer overall this year, but, don't think the population is too low.  As a matter of fact, I know in my area, the numbers are still higher than I want them to be.


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## Hammack (Nov 18, 2008)

Jeff Phillips said:


> What is unbelievable is there are folks who just won't listen when experianced hunters say there is a problem! Same problem we are having with WRD at their meetings. 90% plus will say that the limit is too high. They give the same lip service you are saying and nothing changes



Ok, here is my problem with this.  If 90% say there is declining numbers then why don't they take it upon there selves to stop shooting them?  Surely 10% of the hunters isn't going to do that much damage to the deer heard.   As it has been said before.  It's up to the individuals to decide how many they need to take based on their property. This is starting to sound like a democrat/republican debate.....  More government control vs. less government control.....  I personally don't need the government to tell me what I should or shouldn't do on my own place.  I'm the one who's hunting it and I'm pretty sure I know more about what's on it than they do anyway.  If what you are saying is so then either one of two things is happening.  1)  The 90% that are saying there is a problem with bag limits being to high are then going out and killing to many anyway  or 2) There isn't a problem with the bag limit and your decrease is coming from another problem.  If a club is hunted with less pressure, and fewer deer killed than adjoining properties the deer will move to where there is less pressure.  So I don't see how 10% of the hunters can be causing the problem if 90% as you say, are actually doing what they preach....


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## Bucknut (Nov 18, 2008)

In several places , I have read or heard the DNR tell people to shoot the yotes, get rid of the yotes, kill all the yotes ya see...DNR may not be perfect , they are a Gov't agency after all, but I do think they are taking the "kill all the yotes" stance for a reason...Deer population is probably part of that reason...That combined with a multi-year draught and everything suffers, not just the deer....


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## Jeff Phillips (Nov 18, 2008)

Hammack said:


> Ok, here is my problem with this.  If 90% say there is declining numbers then why don't they take it upon there selves to stop shooting them?  Surely 10% of the hunters isn't going to do that much damage to the deer heard.   As it has been said before.  It's up to the individuals to decide how many they need to take based on their property. This is starting to sound like a democrat/republican debate.....  More government control vs. less government control.....  I personally don't need the government to tell me what I should or shouldn't do on my own place.  I'm the one who's hunting it and I'm pretty sure I know more about what's on it than they do anyway.  If what you are saying is so then either one of two things is happening.  1)  The 90% that are saying there is a problem with bag limits being to high are then going out and killing to many anyway  or 2) There isn't a problem with the bag limit and your decrease is coming from another problem.  If a club is hunted with less pressure, and fewer deer killed than adjoining properties the deer will move to where there is less pressure.  So I don't see how 10% of the hunters can be causing the problem if 90% as you say, are actually doing what they preach....



The 90% that I was referring to is 90% of the hunters who care enough to show up for the WRD meetings. It is a small number of folks at the meetings I have attended. 

I would guess that 90% of hunters, based on some comments on here, have no clue on the impact to the herd from pulling a trigger

Just because the QDMA and WRD *SUGGEST* that hunters kill more does, many yahoos are off to the races with total disregard for what their actions are doing to the herd *IT IS A TOOL AVAILABLE IF NEEDED! NOT A MANDATE TO BE APPLIED STATEWIDE!*

I have shot 2 does in the last 6 years. I have seen a couple of hundred over that time. I can only control my actions. I am responsible for me.

BTW: Our herd is coming back and we will place additional limitations on does next year!


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## mastr001 (Nov 18, 2008)

The doe limit needs to be a smaller number.  Ya a good buck to doe ratio, but i just think 10 is to high of a number.


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## HunterK (Nov 18, 2008)

deercam said:


> what i would like to know is how dnr can say there were 194000 does killed last year. how can they possibly know when there is no requirment to record your harvest.the only harvest record they have is on the check in/out hunts where you record on the game lands.there may be 300000 does killed each year but how can they tell?in my home state of NC you have to call in your harvest within 24 hrs to get an authorization # to record on your tags .this gives the wildlife agency a way to keep up with how many are killed.I just cant figure out where they get there harvest data.



This is the smartest response I have heard to this thread, How do they (DNR/WRD) know? I would be intrested to see a thread/poll here to see how many hunters actually report their harvests......I don't think I have ever heard of a process in which hunters should report their harvest (someone correct me if I 'm wrong). I would almost bet my house that less than 10% of all hunters actually report thier harvest. It should be mandatory.  And tell me this, how would you go about counting deer anyway? The only real data they can get is from insurance claims from folks who have hit them with their cars, last I heard  the average was 20-25k a year hit by cars.


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## BIGJOHNA (Nov 18, 2008)

Milkman said:


> Bigjohn,
> 
> Congrats on all the deer  you are seeing !!!
> Your places are obviosly well populated. I venture to say the areas you mention are probably a mixture of woods, pasture, and developed areas with small to medium sized woodlots.
> ...



you are very correct sir! my braselton tract is 345 acres ( owned by one family) of farm land. roughly 180 acres is cow pasture. my hardwood spots are basicly 15-20 acres funnels maybe 200 yds wide. my hoschton tract is 78 acres square block with two warehouses on each side, another funnel to 500 acre tract behind me and a neighborhood to the front of me. however, i want to add that being in the woods is very important, i try to hunt 5-6 days a week. maybe evening on tuesday and morning on wed before and or after work. good luck to everyone.


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## CPiper (Nov 18, 2008)

roothog said:


> we're all trying to do a "one size fits all" solution, when in fact, that's not the case at all, imho.




BINGO .... we have a winner.
The easy part of deer managment is managing the Deer.
And there is not a one size fits all solution(s). A real deer managment plan has to have the ability to flex, bend, change, and we all know what happens to deer hunters when change is mentioned (LOL!). 
The hard part of managing deer is managing the People!!
We want LOTS of deer and LOTS of Booner bucks. It boils down to expectations - realistic and reasonable OR unrealistic and unreasonable.
What you want to see and do, and what the habitat and wildlife are capable of, in your area, may be 2 different things. 

Back in a day when most parts of the entire SE, Georgia included, was busting loose at the seems with LOTS of deer hunters complained that they could not expect to kill a "trophy" deer. 
Things changed  (mostly habitat changes).
The deer density declined, the habitat improved, and now many hunters across the SE, Georgia included, are seeing and killing "trophy" bucks ...........

....... and now the complaint is "Im not seeing many deer".

Facinating!! 
Amazing!!

The answers are simple! 

If you want to see more deer, stop shooting them.

If you want to increase your local deer population, stop shooting doe deer.

If you want to see and kill "trophy" bucks, stop shooting bucks until they reach 5.5+ years of age. 

Check stations, or some sort of hunter harvest report from hunters represents the bare minimum number of deer hunters harvest. Why? Because there will always be some hunters that fudge and cheat and dont play fair and legal and dont report their kills legally and correctly. 
Financial and Time Limitations placed on DNR employees means they cannot be everywhere all the time to catch the cheaters.
It is a waste of time and money to think check stations and or reports will help control deer pops through harvest records. 
Science and technology have advanced far enough to ensure most states DNR offices have a fairly accurate grasp on the deer pop and harvest numbers. It has been proven over and over they are very accurate. 
Dont look there for the answers - look to educating the hunter!!


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## LindsayThomasJr. (Nov 18, 2008)

Jeff Phillips said:


> Just because the QDMA and WRD *SUGGEST* that hunters kill more does,



For the record, QDMA's advice has always been to take an appropriate number of does to balance the population with the local habitat's carrying capacity. This means if you are under carrying capacity and want more deer, harvest few if any does. If you are over carrying capacity, harvest an appropriate number to achieve balance. 

I would add, however, that deer sighting rates alone are not an indicator of whether you are over or under carrying capacity. As others have pointed out here, too many other factors affect sighting rates at the local level, including weather, hunting pressure, and mast crops.


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## CPiper (Nov 18, 2008)

mathewsdxt said:


> One question for you guys?   Why do we see so many spotted fawns as late as MID november and why do we see active deer sign all the way into Turkey season in most parts of Georgia.  I, too, have seen less deer overall this year, but, don't think the population is too low.  As a matter of fact, I know in my area, the numbers are still higher than I want them to be.



It is just a simple timing issue - nothing to be alarmed or concerned about. Late, or early, (however YOU personally clock such events) born doe fawns coming into their first estrous cycle with bucks present that are still able to breed .... just a simple timing issue.
This is also a sign of a "young" and healthy deer population.


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## j_seph (Nov 18, 2008)

Manage your land, shoot less does is mentioned over and over. How do you manage your land/your harvest when your neigbor is shooting everything that comes by them?


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## C.Killmaster (Nov 18, 2008)

Here's an interesting piece of info, the average deer harvest per hunter in the state of Georgia has never exceeded 1.6 deer per hunter.  Last year only 3% of all deer hunters killed 5 or more does and 63% of deer hunters killed no does.

Here are my suggestions:
There are fewer deer now than in the late 90's (~400,000 less), which is a good thing.  The population is now at a reasonable level.

For several years hunters have agressively targeted does.  Over time, mature does begin to act like mature bucks and become harder to kill.

Selective memory for many hunters.  

In the late 90's the deer population peaked.  During that same time, the majority of hunters expressed an interest in quality over quantity.  When bag limits increased, they were given the flexibility to quality manage.  Now, most places have achieved what you set out to accomplish but you're not happy with it.  When you keep a population well below carrying capacity, you will see fewer deer.  I think too many hunters got used to seeing at least a couple of deer every trip to the stand.  If that happens consistently, you have too many deer.


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## flyfisher76544 (Nov 18, 2008)

I think everyone is just looking for the magic bullet theory. Yes, I believe 10 does a season per hunter to be too excessive. 
   The drought that we have had these last several years sure isnt helping matters. First thing we always look for is a good water source that the animals are actually using. No water=No animals. 
   Coyote populations have exploded. DNR says that 65% of all fawns will die due to this issue. So if 10 fawns are born on my hunting area, 6 or 7 will fall prior to season. Heck, thats not counting how many does and bucks will die as well. Plus we still haven't factored in disease and other mishaps as well.
   Poachers, I feel we need to have stricter laws and heavier fines across the board. Look at the DNR site and look at the reports. Most of these poachers are just getting a slap on the wrist.
   How many of you have hogs tearing up your property? Usually once the hogs move in, the deer leave. They cant compete with them.
   I fully agree with dropping the limit to 5 does a year.


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## XtremehuntR (Nov 18, 2008)

I disagree with all of you.  Game limits are set by DNR bioligists based on the number of estimated hunters, deer population and holding capacity of the land.  Georgia has an estimated deer population of approximately 1,200,000. GA ranks about 6 or 7 in the top 10 states with more deer population above states in corn country like Illinois (800,000), Kentuky (750,000), Iowa (450,000), Ohio (650,000)...

I see many deer every day in metro Atlanta, I see deer in my neiborhood and see lots of dead deer on every road, obviously there are many deer in the woods. 

My theory is:  Too many gadgets...too many lazy hunters on their ATVs...too many crowded hunting clubs.  Not enough scouting... not enough hunters doing their homework... not enough just plain hunting.


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## CPiper (Nov 18, 2008)

j_seph said:


> The property I hunt in Hall county is between 1200 and 1400 acres, 95% hardwoods with 80% of them being oaks plus foodplots = no deer (plenty of food but no deer)
> 
> In this thread, http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=261444
> plenty of food and plenty of deer,plenty trophys. Reckon this could be from having plenty of food+you can't kill 12 deer per person + extra on public land



There are alot (ALOT) more that goes into this equation then just how many acorn trees you have on your land ....

Maybe the surrounding habitat is better?
Maybe the surrounding habitat is worse?
How much cover does your property afford the deer? 
There could be subtle changes in your neighbors habitat that have impacted the deer density - changes only the wildlife can feel, not you.\
Maybe the pressure you and your fellow hunters place on the deer is too intense? Maybe the neighbors pressure is too intense? 
Point is - there are MANY variables to put into this equation, make sure you count all the ways your deer density could be being impacted - make no assumptions - weigh the facts without emotion or wishful thinking. 

How many deer do you think 1200-1400 acres should support?


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## XtremehuntR (Nov 18, 2008)

BTW...Everyone show checkout the DNR information on the Georgia herd at this link.

http://georgiawildlife.dnr.state.ga.us/documentdetail.aspx?docid=278&pageid=1&category=hunting


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## Twenty five ought six (Nov 18, 2008)

> Last year only 3% of all deer hunters killed 5 or more does and 63% of deer hunters killed no does.



I'm going to have to jump back in here, and ask where does DNR get these numbers.

My survey may not be scientific, but it is accurate among the hunters I know, and a lot more than 47% killed a doe.  

I also wonder how the unlicensed hunters (landowners and youth)?  I'm willing to bet that in the 16 and under category, a lot more than 47% killed a doe.

Now that all that being said, until we come up with a tagging system that is something other than the honor system, (a) the limit is irrelevant, and (b) we'll never have accurate numbers on deer killed (and the composition of that kill).

It's real easy to say "well, just don't shoot does."  And we're not supposed to shoot little bucks.  And we're only supposed to expect to shoot one "quality" buck every 3 to 4 years if we are real lucky.  There are not a whole lot of folks going to remain interested in deer hunting ( or, realistically comply) with a program whose bottom line is that you should shoot one deer every couple of years.


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## Bowyer29 (Nov 18, 2008)

cpowel10 said:


> I think the bag limit on does is to high.
> 
> I think when the limit was three, when most people got to 3 they would stop and call it a successful season.
> 
> ...



Amen to all of that!!!!


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## backroads_n_GA (Nov 18, 2008)

If anyone believes that the DNR has an accurate count on deer population they are only kidding themselves.  There is no telling how many deer are killed and never reported.  There are not enough DNR Staff members to accurately do a population census throughout the state.  As I stated in an earlier thread, each club must evaluate it's own herd, have joint meetings with surrounding clubs and develop their own harvest limits.  Some people on here think that just because they are in an area with a high population abd see plenty of deer that either the entire state is as populated or they are superior hunters.  Blah Blah Blah.  Manage your own herd with help from the surrounding clubs.  Good luck and try to enjoy the outdoors.


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## backroads_n_GA (Nov 18, 2008)

dchfm123 said:


> The dont see a problem and the posted numbers show that there is not a problem, becasue there is not one.  There are more deer in the state now than 10 years ago.  We have the highest population ever.  read up on it, you will see.  Read my other post.



This gentleman is one of those fortunate ones to have a location with a good deer herd.


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## fflintlock (Nov 18, 2008)

I was going to sit quiet, but I can't !
I see a lot of "QDM" and "Compitition" on this forum ! 
What is a "truck buck" ? New fangled muzzleloaders, crossbows, extended seasons etc. All of them are just another excuse to kill a "trophy animal" in my mind. I can understand someone who can hunt all the time and is tired of killing an 8 point or so, they want their next one to be a 12 point buck big racked buck, so be it and good luck with it, really. But the contest's that are every where to kill as many, or bigger, is kill'n us, no doubt ! What in the heck ever happened to the simpiler days when just killing a deer or two would suffice ? Whay in the world do we need 12 deer a year ? Who in the world would need 12 deer a year ?
 If we have an over population of deer in any given county, then up that county's harvest permits, but leave the remainder countys alone !
 Paulding county for example, (I'm no expert by any means either), but I have seen less deer there then a few  years ago, why ?
 We have mass sub divisions crawling all over ther place. Then the inssurance companies dictate why and what we hunt, why ? You know dang well they are too !
 QDM, we want bigger horns to hang on the wall, why ? There is so much money invollved, (you would not beleive the money) for trophy animals it is rediculas ! TV shows bragging rights etc. what is happening to us ?
The DNR is a fair involvement, we really need them, game conservationist, it's a must ! But I really struggle to understand them at times. I know dang well there is not enough of them to go around and help police the woods, that is in a part, our fault ! We will and can not police our selves, why not ?
 I see it as all about the horns and the kill ratio, simple and stupid ! I have read about herd populations, QDM, disease, preditors, etc. I still can not add it all up to giving everyone a chance at killing 12 deer a year, when the happenings of nature, drought, preditors, etc. and the insurance companies are battling against us. What can we do, what should we do ?
 Go back to the simplier times and be dang glad you can get a chance of killing a deer, or two. Horns are a plus and not a must ! It is by God a "Public Land Deal" in most of our cases, let us take our land back and dictate what the heck happens on it ! We all need to "conserve" what we do and how we do it ! 
 And, the effects it has on us today, tomorow, next year and several years down the road when our kids take it over, for their kids !
Just take the time to read the many threads on this GON Forum and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about. The rediculous and fundilmental topics that arise on a daily baises, baiting, would you let this one walk, theives, poachers, is a 300 mag too much, high tech gizmos, fastest bows, best camo, best scents, fastest ATV, etc. 
 We have become high tech, not give a crap, lazy hunters, bar none !  Our Grand Pa's would roll over in their graves, if we only knew !
 Simple times, simple hunts, with our kids, like we were taught. Where did it go ?
 I say all this with respect to each and everyone of you here, I put down no man, or woman. I just beleive hunting has changed, for the worst and so it shall go, or stop ! it is up to each and everyone of us to keep it alive and going well, what ever shall we do ?
 I know that a bunch of the "hunt club" folks and some others will get on me, but that's just the way I see it.  Message boards never seem to relate the true aspects of a conversation, I'd really like to sit around a fire and discuss this, as our forefathers did, at one time or another.
Jerald


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## Milkman (Nov 18, 2008)

XtremehuntR said:


> My theory is:  Too many gadgets...too many lazy hunters on their ATVs...too many crowded hunting clubs.  Not enough scouting... not enough hunters doing their homework... not enough just plain hunting.



I agree, gadgets and technology have made us lazier in some ways.

But, what if it is the same people, using the same methods, in the same place as they were 15 years ago, and they are only seeing 20% of the deer they were then? This has to mean a change in deer numbers, behavior, or something doesnt it?


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## Hammack (Nov 18, 2008)

Milkman said:


> I agree, gadgets and technology have made us lazier in some ways.
> 
> But, what if it is the same people, using the same methods, in the same place as they were 15 years ago, and they are only seeing 20% of the deer they were then? This has to mean a change in deer numbers, behavior, or something doesnt it?




One key element that alot of people ignore.  Deer adapt and change to fit there survival needs.  If people are still hunting like they did 15 years ago in the same place, and don't adapt there methods then I'll guarantee you that they WILL see less deer.


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## pope and young (Nov 18, 2008)

The DNR needs a better plan, GA could be know for big bucks, but you have hunters that get a Gun in there hand and kill any thing that moves, I think High powered rifles should be banned and gun season should not open till the peak of the rut, muzzleloaders, shot guns and bows are the best bet look at other states, that use those laws, Big buck all the time..... Just some of my thoughts..


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## widowmaker1 (Nov 19, 2008)

i'm still seeing lots of deer


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## BreamReaper (Nov 19, 2008)

People are just lazy. You cant expect to pull up to a patch of woods and there be an easy kill waiting. When season comes in the pressure is on. Think about it. Deer in middle GA go all year roaming as they wish and come September, all of Atlanta, Florida, Carolina, come bustling in with all their equipment and dang the deer change their patterns. They were made to hide from you. All the people driving around on 4wheelers and trucks just shooting at them cause them to go into the woods, where they then must be hunted, as they were intended to be. Sorry if this is too deep for some.


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## Milkman (Nov 19, 2008)

BreamReaper said:


> People are just lazy. You cant expect to pull up to a patch of woods and there be an easy kill waiting. When season comes in the pressure is on. Think about it. Deer in middle GA go all year roaming as they wish and come September, all of Atlanta, Florida, Carolina, come bustling in with all their equipment and dang the deer change their patterns. They were made to hide from you. All the people driving around on 4wheelers and trucks just shooting at them cause them to go into the woods, where they then must be hunted, as they were intended to be. Sorry if this is too deep for some.



The topic is seeing less deer than were seen in the past on properties, Are you saying this is due to the human invasion during season?

 If so how is it different today than several years ago when more deer were being seen?


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## BreamReaper (Nov 19, 2008)

Milkman said:


> The topic is seeing less deer than were seen in the past on properties, Are you saying this is due to the human invasion during season?
> 
> If so how is it different today than several years ago when more deer were being seen?



Well how many years back are you referring to Milkie? My first post states why, but i'll try and clarify. From my learning, the 1950's and 60's didnt have many deer in GA. Numbers picked up in the 1970's and people werent all that crazy about deer, but rather small game. In this time big bucks were harvested although people seemed to care more about the meat. The 70's didnt have 4 wheelers. The early 80's people began getting 4 wheelers, which are ATV's to some of you. Still many people couldnt afford them so they walked and stalked game. Deer hunting really grew in popularity. The 1990's come along and everyone thinks they need all the fancy gear to be considered a hunter. they drive up to their stands, come into the woods with trailers full of camp junk, and their camps look more like RV parks. maybe the satellite tv is scaring the deer. 2/3 of our population is obese because the american people are sorry. Georgia is full of useless people and immigrants. Although the carpool ratio for them is 30:1 per minivan, thats still alot of vehicles. More roads are established. I've seen just as many deer dead on the highway as i have in the woods. Just a few opinionated reasons Milkman, not sure how far back you were referring to. I may be wrong, but maybe something to think on. People whine because of sorry clubs and deer numbers when the bottom line is you gotta get out and hunt and the game must be properly managed.


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## BreamReaper (Nov 19, 2008)

a statewide QDM would also be nice in my opinion. What do ya'll think?


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## Milkman (Nov 19, 2008)

BreamReaper said:


> Well how many years back are you referring to Milkie? My first post states why, but i'll try and clarify. From my learning, the 1950's and 60's didnt have many deer in GA. Numbers picked up in the 1970's and people werent all that crazy about deer, but rather small game. In this time big bucks were harvested although people seemed to care more about the meat. The 70's didnt have 4 wheelers. The early 80's people began getting 4 wheelers, which are ATV's to some of you. Still many people couldnt afford them so they walked and stalked game. Deer hunting really grew in popularity. The 1990's come along and everyone thinks they need all the fancy gear to be considered a hunter. they drive up to their stands, come into the woods with trailers full of camp junk, and their camps look more like RV parks. maybe the satellite tv is scaring the deer. 2/3 of our population is obese because the american people are sorry. Georgia is full of useless people and immigrants. Although the carpool ratio for them is 30:1 per minivan, thats still alot of vehicles. More roads are established. I've seen just as many deer dead on the highway as i have in the woods. Just a few opinionated reasons Milkman, not sure how far back you were referring to. I may be wrong, but maybe something to think on. People whine because of sorry clubs and deer numbers when the bottom line is you gotta get out and hunt and the game must be properly managed.



My personal lower number of deer seen has been decreasing over a period of 5 years (or so). The modern methods and tools have been around during all of this period. 
I agree that we (the modern hunter) have become more lax and perhaps not as aggressive as we were in the past. 

I have been hunting in Ga all my life, and deer hunting since the season came to my county in 1968. 
There are more deer now than in the sixties and early seventies. The deer population exploded in the 80's and 90's . But we have trimmed that population down (or at least appear to be) to a lower level than we had just a few years ago. 

Im not convinced the lower  number of sightings is completley due to lower deer populations, I think they are more nocturnal than they used to be for some reason.


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## dawg2 (Nov 19, 2008)

Milkman said:


> My personal lower number of deer seen has been decreasing over a period of 5 years (or so). The modern methods and tools have been around during all of this period.
> I agree that we (the modern hunter) have become more lax and perhaps not as aggressive as we were in the past.
> 
> I have been hunting in Ga all my life, and deer hunting since the season came to my county in 1968.
> ...



I agree with that!!!


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## BreamReaper (Nov 19, 2008)

Milkman said:


> My personal lower number of deer seen has been decreasing over a period of 5 years (or so). The modern methods and tools have been around during all of this period.
> I agree that we (the modern hunter) have become more lax and perhaps not as aggressive as we were in the past.
> 
> I have been hunting in Ga all my life, and deer hunting since the season came to my county in 1968.
> ...



yeah true, they seem to really go nocturnal when season hits. I try to watch and pattern my herd. During bowseason you can keep up with them real good, but when gun day hits you see the difference.


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## PWalls (Nov 19, 2008)

It's the evil "deer limit" thread all over again.

Deer populations are different across the state. People who hunt in the piedmont need different limits than those who hunt in the mountain region as an example. The DNR used to try and regulate that with different doe days and such for the southern and northern regions. Now, they have given the choice back to the hunter. That is what we all want right? Less government intrusion.

The limit is a tool. It is a tool for someone that wants to legally reduce their deer herd. Maybe they want to do it because they hunt for a farmer who wants his crops saved. Maybe they want to kill a lot of deer to reduce the herd for some QDM reason they believe in. Why can't we be happy and just use it. I personally know a whole lot of deer hunters. I do not know of a single one that has shot over 5-6 deer in the last several years. Even though the limit is "high", how many people are realistically shooting that high limit? 

Someone give us some statistics that are proven that show we have a huge amount of deer hunters killing 7+ deer every year. Let's see that research. Until then, it is just opinion not backed up by fact.

I think several people have made some vaild points. Drought, habitat changes to name a couple.

Also, since when do you have to see a deer every single time you go hunting? Are we that spoiled as a group?


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## Jeff Phillips (Nov 19, 2008)

One of the keys that drive the deer nocturnal now is the constant pressure on the does.

In the past the does were passed until after the rut, then doe days would start to hit. Now we have folks blasting away from day 1. 

A doe is no dumber than a buck and will respond to pressure just like a buck will.

When the does go nocturnal the bucks follow.


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## CPiper (Nov 19, 2008)

Jeff:  You have touched on one of THE biggest factors hunters should be zeroing in on - Hunter Pressure!!

Many of us hunters do not own the land we hunt on so habitat manipulation can be zero or very limited.
Given the economic crunch the entire free world is under, financial constraints place further limits on habitat manipulation.
There are restraints and limitations on every hand - two ways hunters can have a more"quality" hunt is:
1. Be mindful of HOW they hunt
2. Be mindful of what they shoot

I am the VP of a larger then average hunt club in SC and the #1 complaint the leadership fields revolves around deer seen and/or killed ... the lack thereof. 
We have began a "Pressure Managment" Plan and have already seen a significant increase in the number off deer seen by all members and number of deer being killed by brand new members.
HOW you hunt is a HUGE part of this equation!! 

Here is a link to the article we wrote to our members.
http://www.piedmonthuntclub.com/html/hunting_articles.html
Click on the Hunting Pressure one!

Again, I go back to "realistic and resonable" expectations.
Alot of hunters (most nowdays???) watch these realtree and primos videos and tv shows and expect to do the same thing and that is NOT going to happen in 95% of cases.
The guys hunt for a living - NO when they find the time/money.
The lands they hunt on are managed to a level that MOST hunters cannot afford in the way of time, money, energy, dedication and committment - PERIOD!!
Some of those lands get hunted 1-2 times in a 4 month period - WHO among the rank and file of the average hunter is willing to do that? NOT very many.

And again, we hunters complain about not seeing many "quality" or "trophy" bucks, all the while seeing HIGH and thick deer densities.
The habitat changes (the #1 overwelming contribution to the decline in the deer pop).
Now, hunters are seeing and killing more "quality/tophy" buck and they start to complain about not seeing many deer.
Amazing! Facinating!
make up our minds folks .... what do you want? How do you define your total outdoor hunting experience? Lots of deer or a few BIG bucks with lower deer numbers? 
Keep your expectations realistic and resonable.
Keep things SIMPLE.
Set Priorities.
Then go hunt and have Fun and stop complicating the issues!


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## BIGHORN26 (Nov 19, 2008)

Four of us went this morning on different tracts in Cherokee co. from daybreak till 10:30 we saw a total of 107 deer!!!! Out of the 107 only 9 of them were bucks. I guess what I'm getting at is I don't unerstand how some of you are blaming "bag limits" on the lack of deer in your area. As far as where I'm at I'm tryin to get my buddies girlfriends and wives to come shoot does to thin them out!!  Don't get me wrong I had a blast watching that many deer in one sitting but as far as HERD  is concerned I gotta get rid of some DOES!!!


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## CPiper (Nov 19, 2008)

BIGHORN26 said:


> Four of us went this morning on different tracts in Cherokee co. from daybreak till 10:30 we saw a total of 107 deer!!!! Out of the 107 only 9 of them were bucks. I guess what I'm getting at is I don't unerstand how some of you are blaming "bag limits" on the lack of deer in your area. As far as where I'm at I'm tryin to get my buddies girlfriends and wives to come shoot does to thin them out!!  Don't get me wrong I had a blast watching that many deer in one sitting but as far as HERD  is concerned I gotta get rid of some DOES!!!



So, you saw 98 "DOES"?? Are you sure? You checked each and every one for testicles?

The factual truth is -  you saw 9 antlered bucks and 98 anterless deer.
There is a BIG difference in "I saw 98 does" and "I saw 9 antlered bucks and 98 anterless deer".
The plain simple truth, The Simple Natural Odds, are that somewhere between 49% and 51% of the "does" you saw were anterless bucks.
This is exactly how and why MOST deer hunters think their buck-to-doe ratios are skewed towards doe deer. This is a misconception and is WRONG thinking!!

You dont have too many does, you have too many deer.

Did you see this thread?
http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=260339

Read up .... education is the key!


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## BIGHORN26 (Nov 19, 2008)

I said 9 bucks I never said the rest were does. You said it yourself too many deer!!  Thats the point I was tryin to make considering the lable of this post.. I dont think the herd is balanced where I hunt because nobody wants to shoot the does. They are mostly  shooting bucks.


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## 25.06 (Nov 19, 2008)

Jeff Phillips said:


> One of the keys that drive the deer nocturnal now is the constant pressure on the does.
> 
> In the past the does were passed until after the rut, then doe days would start to hit. Now we have folks blasting away from day 1.
> 
> ...


I agree with this, on our property, after the 3rd week in November you would think all the deer were gone. Then at the end of season we would do deer drives and sometimes
we might get 10 or more deer up on a 20-30 acre area.Try to manage the deer to get what you want,but there are probably more there than you see.


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## CPiper (Nov 20, 2008)

BIGHORN26 said:


> from daybreak till 10:30 we saw a total of 107 deer!!!! Out of the 107 only 9 of them were bucks.



I did not write this - you did ...... "ONLY 9 OF THEM WERE BUCKS" .... yes you did too imply all but 9 were does. 

Say what you mean ... mean what you say.


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## dawg2 (Nov 20, 2008)

OK, I feel better now.  Doe #2 going to the processor.  BUT, I am still seeing fewer deer during daytime over the past 3 or so years.


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## CPiper (Nov 20, 2008)

Bambibuster21 said:


> I believe that the deer population was too high about 5 years ago, but now it is too low. The limit is too high. However, i agree that some people are going to kill more than their limit anyway. We need to have tags again instead of harvest records, they will still be abused but it makes it harder to do.  In contrast, if you ever conduct a spotlight count on your lease you will probably be surprised at how many deer are actually there. I have done several and every time I was surprised.



And you based this on what? 
Real biological and harvest data or your observations and emotions? 
How do you know, I mean, how do you KNOW the deer numbers were too high, and are now too low? 

How do hunters arrive at "the number of deer are too low"? Too low for what? 
The number of deer are too low for the good of the deer? The number of deer are too low for the good of the habitat? 
Or, the number of deer are too low for hunters to see/kill deer as they see fit?

The facts are that MOST hunters do not come close to killing a limit; how do you arrive at that?
There is however a small % of hunters that kill the largest % of bucks in states where there is a multiple buck limit.


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## CPiper (Nov 20, 2008)

And, do most of us hunters know how and why limits are set the way they are?


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## BIGHORN26 (Nov 20, 2008)

When I said bucks I meant antlered deer.  Thus making the rest of them antlerless deer..  When I said 9 bucks I was implying that I saw 9 antlered deer.  Regardless of gender that many deer in one sitting should say something about the deer#'s.


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## CPiper (Nov 20, 2008)

It does ... and it might be all good. That habitat may well support that many deer. Or, it might be all bad, or partly bad, as the habitat might be on teh verge of a crunch. Your job as a hunter (conservationist) is to figure it out and adjust accordingly.

Good Luck and make it FUN!!


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## UK bowhunter (Nov 20, 2008)

Milkman said:


> There have been several threads and posts related to this recently.
> 
> Many of us are seeing less deer in some areas that formerly offered more deer sightings. Is it simply that there are less deer ? Have they become more nocturnal than they used to be?
> 
> ...



Too many Florida hunters


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## Arrow Flinger (Nov 20, 2008)

I saw Oglethope County going from unbelievable numbers to nearly none and then a rebound.  I think one of the main reason in our area was the transfer of land ownership.  What was large tracts of timber land and one large private tract was then subdivided and sold, then resold and then resold.  This resulted in 1 year clubs that shot everything they saw knowing they would not have the land the next year.  The land swapping has slowed down now but there are several QDM clubs in the area now.  I beleive in QDM if the whole practice is followed and there is adaquate acreage to allow it to work but some clubs practice only parts of it and most of the time it is the desire for a 2-1 ratio resulting in the over harvest of does.  I know that 2-1 is suppose to be the ideal ratio and it is suppose to intensify the rut but I love to see deer too much to sacrifice a 4 month season for a good 2 week rut.   Deer numbers are better than they were 4 years ago but no where near the numbers I would  like to see.  I have not shot a doe at the farm in 10 years and will not until I see an adaquate herd to justify it. 
We have about half of the hunter pressure we had in the early 90's so that can't be a factor.  We also have better habitat now than then.  That leaves one reason IMO, over harvest.


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## will hunt 4 food (Nov 20, 2008)

I've hunted the same property since I started as a kid(30+ years). The population has always been better than average, until the 10 doe limit came in. The property next to us 1000+ acres killed over 120 does in one year, they were inviting any one that had a tag to kill them to equalize the herd. It worked and you rarely ever see a doe even a limited number at feeders in the off season on the game cams. The population is like it was in the mid 80's now with exception that it is buck heavy now. I wounder if the dnr counted these harvest in their survey. How many other large tracks did the same? If we would not have known some of the people invited it would have never been known buy us.  We still see deer regularly but not daily like before and once you get spoiled it's hard to go back.


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## CPiper (Nov 20, 2008)

Well, if you think the harvest is too high, Stop Shooting Deer.
This is the 2nd time Iv posted this. It is simple!


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## bigblocktransam (Nov 20, 2008)

ya'll can thank our insurance companies, lets give them a round of applause.......


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## quality hunter (Nov 20, 2008)

I have stopped shooting deer but how can you get the big clubs around you to do it?


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## BIGHORN26 (Nov 20, 2008)

Well thats the end of this thread Cpiper has spoken...  For the second time.


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## gabulldawg83 (Nov 20, 2008)

I am new to this whole thing, but isn't is up to we the hunters what the limits are? Being so new to hunting I hate to hear that the deer pop is dwindeling. This is something I am looking forward to introducing my sons and nephews to. Doesn't the DNR base the limits atleast somewhat on what we the hunters are saying? So can't we petition to lower doe limits?


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## Milkman (Nov 20, 2008)

gabulldawg83 said:


> I am new to this whole thing, but isn't is up to we the hunters what the limits are? Being so new to hunting I hate to hear that the deer pop is dwindeling. This is something I am looking forward to introducing my sons and nephews to. Doesn't the DNR base the limits atleast somewhat on what we the hunters are saying? So can't we petition to lower doe limits?



I know that DNR staff members read this forum. They may or may not be influenced by what they read here. However I feel they dont  ignore the sensible , honest replies and opinions expressed here.
There is an opportunity to attend DNR sponsored public meetings that are usually held early each year. Im not sure if the meetings for 2009 are scheduled yet. 
I am sure the dates will appear in threads here when the schedule is announced.


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## j_seph (Nov 20, 2008)

Heck I killed a buck today and that makes 2 deer for me this year 2 clubs-3 other pieces of private land and I killed 1 on Russell WMA and one on Dukes creek which has very few deer It could very well be the pressure and nocturnal but on my 3 private lands there is very little hunting and very little deer sightings


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## Twenty five ought six (Nov 20, 2008)

> They may or may not be influenced by what they read here. However I feel they dont ignore the sensible , honest replies and opinions expressed here.



Well, I don't have a problem with DNR, but I do sometimes feel that they sometimes they display a "we are the professionals" attitude.  And I've been told on this forum that I just "don't understand" my lease.

We have had the same lease for 20 years.  We have the same core group of hunters hunting it.  We are now into our second generation of hunters.  We are not trophy hunters, but we pass more bucks than we shoot.

We are local and so we are on the property year round.  That means that we are able to observe many indicators of deer population and deer activity.

There is no question that we are seeing significantly fewer deer than we used to, and we significantly less evidence of deer.  This may be a very local situation, but it is a fact.  I attribute the decrease to increased pressure from development, the high limit, and the lax enforcement of the limits that exist.  

I know in our club, the most deer anyone has shot in one year was 3 (and that was me, all does).  Most of our members shoot one deer, a few two, if they shoot one.

The bottom line is that regardless of what your harvest practice is, unless people can see deer regularly, so that they have some hope of shooting whatever it is they want to shoot, they will lose interest.  With the continued decline in hunter numbers, we can't afford to accelerate the decline.

On the other hand, we are not insurance companies and we do not have several million dollars to spread around to campaign coffers.


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## gamechaser (Nov 20, 2008)

The west side of my property is hunted on three sides. Every time i go there are many shots around me. Sos there were tons of tracks sign etc. I passed on a doe today. I'm seeing fewer tracks crossing thru roads and bottom trails. Last year i was covered up with deer. I passed on a good buck and four does the other day. I was hoping to see the group of 4 continue coming thru  a hot spot for bucks. There are 4 of us hunting 500 acres and i'm the only one to kill a deer so far. I hope that there will be deer left us for next year.


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## CPiper (Nov 21, 2008)

BIGHORN26 said:


> Well thats the end of this thread Cpiper has spoken...  For the second time.



Typical Deer Hunter Emotions .... silly deer hunters.

Deal With the Facts based on Biological issues and factors.

You dont like the fact I found a flaw in your post - YOU wrote that, not me, deal with it.
This deer and deer hunting stuff is NOT NOT NOT a life and death issue, nor is it rocket science. In most cases, it is so simple, what to do, how to do, and the cause and effect escapes the normal average deer hunter .... I know, I was there too.
Then a simple process started - Education based on facts and figures and simple deer biology - NOT hunter emotions of good intentions or "I think so ....".

Hunters set the limits?? NO NO NO!
You think there is a mess now, if states were to allow 
ill-educated and un-educated emotional deer hunters make the choices, the deer and habitat would be in dires straits! 
I posted a question a few posts back - do any of you know how and why state DNR agencies set deer limits?


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## BIGHORN26 (Nov 21, 2008)

No "flaws" in my post just a flaw in how you read it.I guess you are emplying that you don't hunt or you are as silly and emotional as the rest of us, no wait you just are'nt "normal or average".  So let us silly , below average hunters get back to bouncin ideas off each other and you can get back to your biology research and writting your articles for magazines.


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## Milkman (Nov 21, 2008)

Folks, there is too much good information shared in this thread to loose it.

I am going to trim some more posts if need be.

Remember the PM function works very well for arguing


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## CPiper (Nov 21, 2008)

I am NOT arguing.
I am not, have not and will not make this personal.
I am "arguing" and "debating" Deer Biology, and how alot/most hunters dont apply facts and deer biology in their attempt to explain a decline in deer numbers.

Bighorn ... I was not suggestiong you were silly or stupid ... just emotional ... and you proved me correct ... thank you ... I love being correct/right!   
Chill Out Dude ... this is JUST an internet discussion, not a personal invasion. Open up your mind and close your emotions and you just might learn something .... all ofus can be right and/or wrong, no big deal.
Dang, if your gonna take it so personal, stop posting and take a break, or take some hormone treatments!  

BigHorn ... my bad ... I am stupid, not you.
Lets start over ..... let me start over .... let me begin by asking you some questions and you help me understand ...
1. What is the overall deer density on your property?
2. What is the buck-to-doe ratio on your property?
3. What are the harvest goals (wildlife managment plan) for your properties?
4. How many acres do you manage?
5. What is your harvest rate - deer harvested per sq mile?
6. The county(s) you hunt in - how does your harvest rate compare to the overall county harvest rate you hunt in; lower, higher, status-quo? 

And if you can answer these questions, how did you arrive at these answers? 
Leave emotion out of it - stick to the basic simple questions and answer them.
I am betting up front, the odds are, that you really dont know what the answers are to these questions. In fact, I'll be quite shocked if you can answer them. In fact, if you can answers these questions accuratly, based on facts and real scientific deer biology, I'll send you a gift card for $20 to WalMart or BassPro or Cabelas.

Let me share this with ya'll too .... I am a member of a club in the Coastal Plain of SC and we shoot deer ... as in NO QDM, we shoot any and all deer. No limit on bucks, no antler or weight restrictions, and we get a very liberal supply of doe tags and we shoot and shoot and shoot deer. 
Last weekend we killed 18. The weekend before that we killed 13. The weekened before that we killed 13. The weekend before that we killed 9. How? Why? Explain it to me? We kill 13 one weekend, come back the next and kill 18 .... how can this be?


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## CPiper (Nov 21, 2008)

BTW, and ... I am also a member of a club that has seen the deer numbers decline dramatically in the past couple of years. 
We had 65-70 deer per sq mile just 5 or so years ago and now we are at 35-40 deer per sq mile.
I did my homework ... studied & researched habitat and wildlife data and found the truth!


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## j_seph (Nov 21, 2008)

i'd love to have 35 deer per sq mile


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## Blisterapine (Nov 21, 2008)

I hunt private property that me my Dad and brother own. 
We have nearly 800 acres and are surrounded by 3 to 4 times that amount of private land. We have been quality managing along with our neighbors for nearly 25 years.
It's so incredibly strange to me that we never ever have more deer from one year to the next. I remember 15-20years ago , I could sit on one of several 1/2 acre rye patchs and at 4:30 or so it would begin to fill up with deer. I bet now I could sit the same patches and see a few deer the entire season if I'm lucky. For one.. they have absolutely stoped going to my patches during daylight hours , two..I don't think we have as many deer as we did in those days.
The craziest thing is , where are they?? We sure as heck haven't killed them , we havent killed 20 deer in 15 years off of my place , my neighbors only kill but 3 or 4 a year!!
We let every single buck we see walk..If he's not a mounter he walks, period. The reason we don't shoot many does is because we don't see them. 
Now..I know there is a lot of factors , but if anybody has an answer I'd like to here it becuase I have been racking my brain for years over this and I haven't got an answer , just tired theories.


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## quality hunter (Nov 23, 2008)

Bump

I figured I would bump this to the top because I am tired of spending thousands each year to have the deer herd decimated. I just emailed Dnr. Why doesnt everybody email  them who thinks this overkill has got to stop.


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## dawgfan25 (Nov 23, 2008)

i used to see tons on deer in hard labor creek state park but when they opened it to hunting i havnt seen a deer in there for years?


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## Milkman (Nov 23, 2008)

quality hunter said:


> Bump
> 
> I figured I would bump this to the top because I am tired of spending thousands each year to have the deer herd decimated. I just emailed Dnr. Why doesnt everybody email  them who thinks this overkill has got to stop.



QHunter,

I think many of us feel the way you do. I know for sure that GA DNR officials read this forum and are reading this thread. I wanted us to tell specific examples and possible theories of what we feel has happened. I hope we can get more people to attend the local DNR meetings next time. 

But DNR doesnt make anyone kill deer they just set limits, rules, seasons, etc. As many have stated it is up to the individual/club to determine what they should take from their land.


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## dawg2 (Nov 23, 2008)

I really do not think it is a shortage...they have gone NOCTURNAL.


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## Cypress94 (Nov 23, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> I really do not think it is a shortage...they have gone NOCTURNAL.



I'll second that....I hunt public land only, and around my house I have seen much more activity after dark than in the day...and also, I think that the GON rutmap is useless and very general...I think last year it was late, and this year it has already come and gone in my area.  

And, as I stated many posts before...these old bucks that we let walk....every year they get older, they get smarter.  And when bowhunters pile into the woods in early season, the 2 1/2 yr. olds go nocturnal.  Ask the rangers at Flint River WMA...they hardly ever see a deer come in that is older than 2.  And they see nice deer down there in the off season.  It is PRESSURE that drives the bucks, and if the does go nocturnal the bucks follow.  And as an aside...if you own a tract of land, and you aren't seeing an increase in the amount of deer there, and you have had the property for a lengthy amount of time...then look at how your property is managed.  If your woods have matured and you have no thickets or any safe havens, then your property isn't going to hold deer.  Just my .02.


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## n4rj (Nov 23, 2008)

Coyotes and other Predators.
Attractants, synthetic food and scents.
Intense Hunter communication and Internet, etc.
Unsustainable Limits promulgated and supported by Insurance companies.
Long, long hunting seasons.
Increased research pertaining to habit and habitat enrichment
Heated, enclosed, elevated, stealth, and silent box stands used by "Shooters"; not "Hunters" on massive food Plots
GPS capabilities, sophisticated Mapping.
Advanced projectile technology.
Trail cameras and video tracking.
Radio, Walkie-Talkie, and Telephone "Alerts" real time.  Illegal I think.
Longer hunting seasons pertaining to Bow and Arrow and Muzzle Loaders-Duh...Now a scoped Muzzy or a Crossbow can kill most anything close by.....neither of which is currently "Primitive".
Deep woods penetration of Hunter access via 4 Wheeler/ATV, etc.

Not trying to be negative...Just looking at the possible answers to the question.
All of the above comes into play.  
I asked a DNR researcher about the limit....there are only a miniscule number of folks who get more than a few deer even with the increased limits...I'd speculate that the Coyote( we didn't see them years ago) probably is having a profound affect.  Also, Turkeys(which were introduced in the late 60s I believe)...and the increased Hog population are competing for the browse and crops.  The crop farmer is disappearing, but many Deer and game clubs plant a fair amount these days.
A poor Deer hasn't got much of a chance looking over the above....

Unfortunately, we are seeing a diminishing number of young hunters to be....So Video games may be one thing on the Deers' side.  I saw 3 Bucks selling PS2s and X-Boxes on Hwy 99 last week to keep teenagers from getting interested in hunting.  Go Figure.
Maybe those Deer are getting smarter while we are buying Gizmos.


There are a myriad of factors.  Don't think one could disintegrate them and vector in on one or two factors.  As Bubba Gump said..."That's 'bout all the ways I can think of...."


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## christianhunter (Nov 23, 2008)

Milkman said:


> There have been several threads and posts related to this recently.
> 
> Many of us are seeing less deer in some areas that formerly offered more deer sightings. Is it simply that there are less deer ? Have they become more nocturnal than they used to be?
> 
> ...



I also belong to the GONetwork,I was a senator with them for a year,and stepped back down to a regular membership.Last year I went to the WRD meeting in coweta county held in April.I had a list of questions to ask from another source,plus my own list.These are facts,and not assumptions.Given to me by John Bowers,Noel Holcombs assistant from DNR.I asked about the sniper shootings in N.Georgia,and asked if the sniper method was contained to that area only,he admitted that the U.S.D.A. snipers,hired by the State.Went where they were needed. They shoot them at night,from big bucks,does,even fawns,in what ever they justify a suitable amount,to harvest.He also admitted that the population amount of 1 to 1.2 million deer as the states population was exaggerated to prompt hunters into harvesting more deer.
These areas are sub-divisions,wooded areas close to,any type congested area.The introduction of coyotes,was denied by Noel Holcomb himself.He danced around the birth control rumor,neither admitting,nor denying.I didn't get much worthwhile response on the Network forum,but these are all facts,if you doubt,please feel free to use my name,when contacting them.
I was at the meeting 4/17/07,my name is as follows,with my cell number,I'm not afraid,and I'm totally against it,I emailed Sonny Perdue 3 times about my disgust about it,without our input,and he just kept redirecting me to Noel Holcomb.This is how truthful I'm being about it,I have given all of my info.

Michael Robards
203 Walt Sanders Road
Newnan,Ga.30263
cell-770-865-9384


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## christianhunter (Nov 23, 2008)

Please contact them,and vent your disapproval.This is taking away from us,without giving us the right to comment.


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## Sixes (Nov 24, 2008)

The overall population number is not even close to what they were in the late '80s-early 90's.  I hunted in Greene county and Washington county during those times and it was common to see dozens of deer while riding around and see tons of deer while hunting. I now hunt in Troup and its rare to even see a deer while driving down I-85 and I-185. 

What do I think has happened? A mixture of what others posters have stated: coyotes decimating fawn crops and the huge overkilling of the does. Also, too much pressure on the does will make them just as hard to see as any buck. 

No does = NO DEER

We run multiple trailcams on our lease, so if the doe population is still high, then how in the world can they avoid getting their pictures made or avoid making tracks??


I love the fact that a lot of you "believe" anything that the DNR writes. No way that the DNR will ever admit that they have lowered the population to this level, they will only claim that hunters need to adapt and that the numbers of deer are still really high. If thats the case, there must have been 10 million deer in Georgia during the early 90's. The DNR is just another gov't agency and if you believe everything the gov't tells you, I would advise you to get your head out of the sand.


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## ugadeer (Nov 24, 2008)

We have not killed too many deer in GA, period.  Our densities remain higher than 90% of states and we are finally growing bigger deer and have healthier deer herds.  All the talk of too high of doe harvests is just a lame excuse for changing the way you hunt a "pressured" herd.  The deer are there, they move in the daylight almost everyday and you simply have to find where they sleep and where they eat to see them.  Each year we produce bigger and better mature bucks, the reason?  Less competition for critical food sources in the summer stress periods, b/c there are fewer deer.


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## Arrow Flinger (Nov 24, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> I really do not think it is a shortage...they have gone NOCTURNAL.



Nocturnal deer still make tracks!  Our nocturnal tracks are very limited and rarely cross a road in front of the truck.  Our deer have just gotten too smart for me!


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## Arrow Flinger (Nov 24, 2008)

You are right about one thing.  The much LOWER deer population has resulted in bigger and healtier deer.  However, the doe harvest has been way too high for MY likings.  I love to hunt and don't miss a week from September til the end of January and have been doing it for 34 years.

My main enjoyment comes from watching deer.  I keep up with my every hunt and last year, almost 50% of my hunts, I didn't see a deer.  This year the average is running about the same.   This is too low of a population for me.

We have only killed 2 does in the last 2 years but a couple of clubs joining us have killed a bunch trying to reach the magic 2-1 ratio.  If the ratio ever does get to that, deer hunting will not be near as fun for me since sightings will drop much more.


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## CPiper (Nov 24, 2008)

No Answers to my questions? Well, looks like I wont be sending a gift card to my deer friend. I did not expect answers anyways ... and therein lies part of the issue/problem - uneducated hunters.
And I mean that in a good and positive way - NOT that I know it all, nor am I suggesting that hunters are doing something wrong ... simple uneducated on the hows and whys many states are seeing a decline in the deer population.

Again, the #1 reason there is a reduction in the deer population is the changes in the habitat.
GA is not that much different then SC ..... years ago, when GA and SC were busting at the seems with deer it is because the habitat (the Deer Woods) were young pine stands and that sort of habitat, coupled with the timber practices back then, were extremely suitable for producing deer. Them 2-3-4 year cut overs were some of the MOST excellent habitat there is to grow and hold deer and the deer numbers exploded .... and hunters got spolied!
10+ years later ... all of them pines have matured ... and 30+ foot pines dont hold, support or grow wildlife .... maybe bugs, but not deer.
The idea/concept of "QDM" and "shoot the does" also factors in. It took awhile but hunters bought into it and they SHOT the doe deer.
Then we have had some severe drought conditions remain pretty dog gone persistant over the last several years.
The coyote has spread ... and while the jury is still out, it could very well be possible that they are having a deeper impact them all of us thought. A study is being conducted as we speak in SC on deer/coyotes and the preliminary results show devestating mortality.

This is not rocket science .... The habitat simply does not support the high numbers of deer it did in the past. It is that basic and simple - period!

If you want to change the deer population in your area you can do so by shooting less deer AND improving your local habitat. Both will result in a higher deer population .... IF everyone in that local area plays by the same plan.

I still dont get it ..... years ago when GA had LOTS and LOTS of deer the question/complaint was "What can we do to get some quality bucks in our state? and everyone whine and complained about the lack of older more mature bucks.
Then everyone jumped on the "QDM Bandwagon" and started shooting doe deer .... remember, you control the overall deer population by the harvest of doe deer ... and some really GOOD/GREAT GA bucks started to appear.
Now, the habitat has changed, hunter practices have changed, and GA has seen a decline in the overall deer population, while still producing some HOSS/STUD bucks .... and now the complaint is "We aint seeing any deer".

And this does not have anything to do with how much money you do or dont spend - it is about Natural Resource Managment!!

I think the invent of QDM and how it has skyrocketed the interest and desire fo B&C and P&Y bucks has made us hunters unrealistic and unreasonable in our expectations AND we are spolied rotton!
We want Booner bucks AND Billions of Deer .... we want the deer to be managed to the point that there is a trophy qulaity buck behind every tree AND still be able to see 100s of deer on every outing.
Do we hunters want real wildlife resource managment or do we want maximum recreational opportunity? The choice is ours, but, you can bet, in todays economic and social climate, you wont have both!!


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## CPiper (Nov 24, 2008)

ArrowFlinger:  Your sex ratio could be 2:1 or 1:2 but if you had 65 deer per sq mile your sightings would be tremendous. You cant confuse sex ratios and overall deer density. And dont forget - the way you hunt (pressure) also impacts how many deer you do or dont see. 
Dropping your sex ratio to 2:1, 1:2 or 1:1 doies not mean you will see deer. If you hunt sloppy and/or you have a low  deer denisty, your sightings/killings will also be low(er). 

Think about this - Texas! They have alot of deer in Texas, the sex ratio is balanced in MANY areas and they see/kill alot of deer .... How? Why?


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## 7mm-08cobb (Nov 24, 2008)

I like the comment "This is starting to sound like a democrat/republican debate..... More government control vs. less government control..... I personally don't need the government to tell me what I should or shouldn't do on my own place." Any regulation or law is only as good as the officer's ability to enforce it. IMO, Self control is the best policy. The 12 limit does not affect me. I might kill 1 or 2 per year. I killed one doe and zero bucks last year. I personally think that thinning the does will provide more browse and eventually lead to healthier and larger bucks. I think it would be difficult to maintain an even balance. We have too many does and we thin the herd and probably kill too many.  I am not smart enough to determine if I have killed too many or not enough. Where I hunt, 5-6 years ago I would see a group of 5-6 does and as many as 12-15 deer in one morning. Now at times I see no deer, a single or a pair of does or a buck. I also have pictures of bucks that I never see during hunting season. Things will recover but I think also other factors that were mentioned above such as coyotes, food sources, hunting pressure, etc.  will affect populations and sighting. Anyway, my 0.02$.


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## CPiper (Nov 24, 2008)

7mm-08cobb said:


> I like the comment "This is starting to sound like a democrat/republican debate..... More government control vs. less government control..... I personally don't need the government to tell me what I should or shouldn't do on my own place." Any regulation or law is only as good as the officer's ability to enforce it. IMO, Self control is the best policy. The 12 limit does not affect me. I might kill 1 or 2 per year. I killed one doe and zero bucks last year. I personally think that thinning the does will provide more browse and eventually lead to healthier and larger bucks. I think it would be difficult to maintain an even balance. We have too many does and we thin the herd and probably kill too many.  I am not smart enough to determine if I have killed too many or not enough. Where I hunt, 5-6 years ago I would see a group of 5-6 does and as many as 12-15 deer in one morning. Now at times I see no deer, a single or a pair of does or a buck. I also have pictures of bucks that I never see during hunting season. Things will recover but I think also other factors that were mentioned above such as coyotes, food sources, hunting pressure, etc.  will affect populations and sighting. Anyway, my 0.02$.



The land might be yours, but the deer (the natural resource) is not yours. You and me, us, we, dont have the right to manage the resource on our land without negotiating what impact we would have on your adjacent land owners. No sir, you dont have the right to shoot deer at your discretion on your property.

Debate? This aint noe debate ... nothing here to debate.
The deer herd has declined and the #1 contribution is due to habitat changes - plain, simple and period!

How do your arrive at "we have too many does"? What biological facts and raw scientific data do you base this on?


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## quality hunter (Nov 24, 2008)

It does not help that after my hunt this morning that I found two fresh killed bucks on the side of the road with there horns cut off.  A 1.5 and 2.5 year old.  The guy in the house above these deer comes out and ask if i need help are something. I really think this dude is baiting the deer. We hardly ever shoot but over his way there are literally 4 or 5 shots ever weekend. Its been like this for three years. This makes me so mad. I am getting in a huge club next year so I dont have to worry about this anymore.


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## Arrow Flinger (Nov 24, 2008)

CPiper said:


> ArrowFlinger:  Your sex ratio could be 2:1 or 1:2 but if you had 65 deer per sq mile your sightings would be tremendous. You cant confuse sex ratios and overall deer density. And dont forget - the way you hunt (pressure) also impacts how many deer you do or dont see.
> Dropping your sex ratio to 2:1, 1:2 or 1:1 doies not mean you will see deer. If you hunt sloppy and/or you have a low  deer denisty, your sightings/killings will also be low(er).
> 
> Think about this - Texas! They have alot of deer in Texas, the sex ratio is balanced in MANY areas and they see/kill alot of deer .... How? Why?



1:  a 2-1 ratio is not do-able on the smaller tracts of land that comprises most of the piedmont.  Even 1000 acre tracts which are huge for our area can not keep their deer on the land.  The area has a few larger tracts but mostly less than 100 acres with many less than 20 acres.  As far as the way we hunt, we have 300 acres that we own.  75 acres is nasty 3 year old clear cut (prime bedding area) that is off limits to even walking unless you are retreiving a deer.  The deer on our place have prime habitat with everything they need and limited hunting pressure.  (ours and the adoining 1000 acres are much better habitat than 10 years ago)  I say we have everything they need but the one factor we can't control.  DOES.  If you don't have plenty of does, you ain't gonna have many bucks.  That is where I don't agree with the QDM practice of trying to get to that 2-1 ratio.  Mid west maybe but it ain't practical in most of GA.  Most clubs use this as an excuse to shoot every doe they see without really knowing what the herd is like.  I have seen many clubs go this route and most are not still around anymore because the members ain't gonna spend $750 for a club that you can't hardly see a deer on. 

_"Think about this - Texas! They have alot of deer in Texas, the sex ratio is balanced in MANY areas and they see/kill alot of deer .... How? Why"_

I have hunted Texas several times and the ranch I hunted had 13,000 acres. They are fed year round and hunting is limited to 4-5 weeks a year with 10 hunters per week. All the ranches around it had 10,000 plus acres too. There were a ton of bucks but the ratio was no where near 2-1 either.  Maybe 6-1 or higher.   No way to compare that to GA.


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## Arrow Flinger (Nov 24, 2008)

CPiper said:


> Again, the #1 reason there is a reduction in the deer population is the changes in the habitat.
> GA is not that much different then SC ..... years ago, when GA and SC were busting at the seems with deer it is because the habitat (the Deer Woods) were young pine stands and that sort of habitat, coupled with the timber practices back then, were extremely suitable for producing deer. Them 2-3-4 year cut overs were some of the MOST excellent habitat there is to grow and hold deer and the deer numbers exploded .... and hunters got spolied!
> 10+ years later ... all of them pines have matured ... and 30+ foot pines dont hold, support or grow wildlife .... maybe bugs, but not deer.
> Then everyone jumped on the "QDM Bandwagon" and started shooting doe deer .... remember, you control the overall deer population by the harvest of doe deer ... and some really GOOD/GREAT GA bucks started to appear.
> ...


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## C.Killmaster (Nov 24, 2008)

Some more food for thought.
I'm sure everyone can agree that the cost per acre of hunting leases has gone up in the last 10 years.  On an average club then each member probably killed maybe 1 or 2 deer.  As lease prices keep going up, you end up taking on more members to avoid pricing out the rest.  If each person continues to kill 1 or 2 deer with the number of members increasing, you may end up overharvesting.  

When establishing club rules, you really need to focus on the harvest per square mile and not per hunter.  If you don't think you have enough deer and your harvest exceeds 10-12 deer per square mile, you need to back off on your harvest.

For example, if you have a 1200 acre club with 20 members, each person could only kill 1 deer, buck or doe, without decreasing the population (assuming a deer density of 30 deer per square mile).  That works out to a harvest rate of 10 per square mile, about a 3rd of the population annually.  Now, if you have more than 10 members per square mile or each person kills 2 or 3 deer, the population will decline.


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## CPiper (Nov 24, 2008)

Texas to GA comparison? Exactly!!!!  There is no comparison - BUT, and it is a BIG but - hunters do compare! The see & hear some TV show of something that happens in TX and think they can do likewise.
The average deer hunter in GA, most of the entire nation for that matter, does not have the time, energy, money, dedication, committment, education, knowledge, wisdom ... and so many other things that would make things for them on the average day spent in the field.
They limit pressure in TX - how many of us average Joe weekend warriors wanna hear "you can only hunt that 700 acres 3 times the entire season"?? Not any of us, we paid our dues and lease money and we is gonna hunt if it kills us ... pressure is a large piece of the pie in these matters. I dont believe in evolution, but I dod believe species can evolve - adapt, change - and the deer we hunt today is a much better survivor then the deer just 10+ years ago. 
Hunters have trained deer through consistant and predictable hunting pressure, and it the hunters who dont want to change. They hunt the same way, the same stands, walking, or riding their trucks or ATVs in and out and do walk abouts in the food plots and wonder why they dont see deer. Manage your pressure and your deer sightings and killings will increase. 

Hunters have got to buy into "we are resource managers" to make a difference now and as we head into the future and we do that by educating ourselves - arming our rank and file with scientific and biological data and information and running lean on emotion and hearsay and feel good/bad. 

 And the #1 point I am trying to make - changes in the habitat - you solidified that fact in your post .... you wrote ...
"There were young pines, mature pines, Mature Hardwoods and nearly no clearcut. 10 years later, the land is mostly privately owned and has young pines, a few mature pines, limited mature hardwoods, open fields and a lot of clearcut and select cut"

It Changed!! 
But, maybe your idea and the deer's idea of what makes the better/best deer habitat is different? If you had deer back then, and have fewer deer now .... what changed? 
Timber practices have changed. When there was a clear cut they used to allow the cut to just grow up - and the deer flurished!
Now, they cut and then spray herbicides on it, killing any chance for natural browse to grow.  

If hunters want more deer they have to allow doe deer to live. 
This is where education comes in. Hunters need to be at a level/place where we are beyond "Im gonna kill me a deer this weekend". We must plan for the future, look ahead, and if that means slowing down on the doe killing, so be it.
This is the "fault" with QDM ... it starts off great with "shoot does" and then it is all about bucks. And some hunters have bought into this whole "shoot does to balance sex ratio"


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## quality hunter (Nov 24, 2008)

Pressure is ten times worse on the deer herd than it was ten years ago. I remember when you were excited just to get a few doe days. Also we had a December break. The deer are getting smarter in heavy hunted areas from year to year and they go nocturnal. Take for instance Chattahochee Bend State park that place was loaded with deer with no pressure. What do you think it will be like next year on this place? Everybody knows the answer.


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## Arrow Flinger (Nov 24, 2008)

CPiper said:


> Texas to GA comparison? Exactly!!!!  There is no comparison - BUT, and it is a BIG but - hunters do compare! The see & hear some TV show of something that happens in TX and think they can do likewise.



Wrong.  The majoritiy of hunters that hunt Texas pay high prices to join a lease or are out of State hunters who also pay big bucks to hunt.  Most do not go to kill every doe they see.



CPiper said:


> Hunters have trained deer through consistant and predictable hunting pressure, and it the hunters who dont want to change. They hunt the same way, the same stands, walking, or riding their trucks or ATVs in and out and do walk abouts in the food plots and wonder why they dont see deer. Manage your pressure and your deer sightings and killings will increase.



Again, I don't think that is the case at our farm.  We have less than half the pressure we had 10 years ago.




CPiper said:


> And the #1 point I am trying to make - changes in the habitat - you solidified that fact in your post .... you wrote ...
> "There were young pines, mature pines, Mature Hardwoods and nearly no clearcut. 10 years later, the land is mostly privately owned and has young pines, a few mature pines, limited mature hardwoods, open fields and a lot of clearcut and select cut"
> 
> It Changed!!


If the changes mentioned are not better habitat then I guess I am one of the uneducated hunters!    



CPiper said:


> what changed?



The desire to shoot the does down to a 2-1 ratio IMO.



CPiper said:


> Timber practices have changed. When there was a clear cut they used to allow the cut to just grow up - and the deer flurished!



We have 50% more nasty grown up clearcut in the area now than we had 10 years ago.  Like I said before, the land is not owned by paper company's anymore.



CPiper said:


> And some hunters have bought into this whole "shoot does to balance sex ratio"



Glad you finally agree with me


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## CPiper (Nov 25, 2008)

ArrowFlinger: Wrong? Right? Im confused!
There is NO comparison when comparing Georgia to Texas as it pertains to deer managment and the level of dedication, discipline and finances of the hunter. That is what I am suggesting, and it sounds like we are on the same page to some extent.
Limited pressure, willingness to pay ALOT of money, the dedication and discipline to pass 3.5 year old bucks up, the experience and knowledge (education) to take their deer managment to "the next level" and on and on and on is what TX has. 
On the "negative" side, this has driven the cost of deer hunting in TX through the roof for the average working man and IMHO, this is not good. 
There are very few public places to hunt in TX - MOST lands are tied up in pricey leases, or are commercial/fee operations - COST!

The point is, again, ALOT of hunters see these television shows on TV or realtree/primos videos and think this is the norm and it is NOT! The average typical deer hunter across most of the SE is not going to experience the "quality" hunt shown on most hunting shows, and it is because their actions dont set them up to meet their expectations - IMHO.

Does? Doe deer are managed differently in TX - they get to live. The fawn mortality rate due to coyotes is high in most areas of TX and therefore the population is kept in check by nature, not hunters, leaving hunters time and energy to focus on bucks (and making money, LOL!).

And you yourself named/listed the changes in the habitat in your area - I did not do that, you did. Changes in the Habitat - why cant hunters see and understand this one simple concept? 
Deer react to changes in the habitat in ways we hunters might not expect or even see until years after the fact. 
Hunters are looking for some big plain and obvious event that happened that changed the habitat and it did not happen that way. It has been a slow process - the habitat took years to change and the wildlife responded accordingly over a course of time. The deer react to minor and subtle changes in their home in ways and manners not seen by hunters - until a much later date. This is all that we are seeing - the after effects of years of changes.

And again, why does not anyone address the change in hunters expecations? 
On one hand we want to see  100s of deer on every outing, and on the other we want to see big massive stud hoss bucks. High and thick deer densities and big triphy bucks do not go hand in hand without excessive habitat manipulation, or a super duper most excellent nutritional habitat, which is not the case in most cases dues to limitations and constraintes of time, money and dedication. 
Back in a day when GA had ALOT of deer the GA hunters screamed and hollered they wanted trophy bucks. Things changed .... for whatever reason. Now, the deer density has dropped and big mature bucks appear, now GA hunters are back to wanting lots of deer, only now, they dont want to give up their big GA bucks.
Face it - hunters are spoiled and we have unreasonable and unrealsitic expecations, and some of that is based on a lack of education on real deer biology and habitat managment.
Would any of you agree? Disagree? If you disagree, sound off and tell us how and why?

Id be willing to bet MOST hunters in GA, SC, NC, AL, MS and all over America have no REAL idea of what the deer density is on their land, nor have they created a "harvest plan" that will help them adjust their harvest rate to keep a balance between the deer and the habitat on their lands.
Emotion is hunter's #1 tool and we use it to whine and complain about "I dont see deer like I used to" .... well, DUH! Stop complaining and figure out why? The reason(s) might just be a BOOM for the deer and habitat, and not for you. 
Hunters have got to be willing to change - these aint the same days and times as way back when. 



Sorry for the last post .. I was rambeling and it was time to go home .... I gave up and quit.


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## CPiper (Nov 25, 2008)

Hunters need to shoot does to control the population. If you want to see more deer, allow more doe deer to live. It is THAT simple!

If you want to see more big mature bucks, allow more young immature bucks to live. It is THAT simple!

Hunters do not need to shoot doe deer to balance the sex ratio. The sex ratio does not need fixing - trigger managment is the fix.
You balance your deer herd by allowing more bucks to reach maturity - this is sound deer biology managment. 
You shoot does only as a means and way to control the overall deer population. If you shoot a buck, you shoot only one deer. There are sufficient numbers of bucks to take his place and sire offspring. Taking a doe deer removes the potential of multiple deer over that deer's life, therefor reducing the overall population.

Allowing bucks to live to reach maturity takes the pressure and strain off of the young and immature bucks by allowing them to be "kids". The older more mature bucks "rule the rut" . All of the highly ritulized breeding/rutting behaviors they angage in ... chasing, scraping, chasing, fighting, chasing .... they have reached the maturity that can afford them some stress during the rut.
A 190lb deer losing 10% of his body weight ir not the same as a 110lb buck losing 10% of his body weight - BIG difference! 
These young immature bucks run around acting like adults, which means they get off on a lame foot ... and they never seem to catch up ... kinda like putting a preschooler in a cathouse and letting him knock himself out. 


There is a joke all of us have heard when someone drags a really nice buck into deer camp .... "He'd have been bigger next year" ... and that is correct. BUT, if he'd have been bigger next year, say as a 3.5 year old, think of what he'd have been like 2-3 years down the road at 5.5 or 6.5.   ....... Dedication and Discipline.


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## Milkman (Nov 25, 2008)

CPiper said:


> "I dont see deer like I used to" .... well, DUH! Stop complaining and figure out why? The reason(s) might just be a BOOM for the deer and habitat, and not for you.
> Hunters have got to be willing to change - these aint the same days and times as way back when.



As the old saying goes, CPiper finally "hit the nail on the head"


This is the reason I started this thread, for us to discuss, identify, and hopefully implement change to address the problems identified. 

Change in hunting is similar to all aspects of life, Change must begin at home, if there is a problem we can only implement a correction individually. But acting together as a group we can be much more effective.  I hope we as hunters can work with each other, DNR, and other groups to achieve what we all want, a meaningful outdoor experience. For me, personally most of that is whitetail deer hunting.


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## CPiper (Nov 25, 2008)

Hey Hey, Im glad to help you Georgia boys out anytime & anyway I can!


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## n4rj (Nov 25, 2008)

"Hunters need to shoot does to control the population. If you want to see more deer, allow more doe deer to live. It is THAT simple!"

Not that Simple.  You need to Define your Goal, calculate your harvest of Bucks and Does as a % of your goals, Age your Deer scientifically, and Last of all calculate the number of Does you should shoot.  If you don's shoot any does, you may not attain your prescribed goal(s).  If you shoot way too many, then you could miss your goal and deplete your resource.
You espouse using Science in one Post and yet make an oversimplified statement in your Boast.

I'm seeing retrospective anecdotal preaching conjoined with a modicum of arrogance, but little science.  

Deer hunting is replete with old wife's tales and folklore.  However, the last 2 decades have brought forth much scientific information.
I like your earlier statement when you advised to define goals first....I strongly agree.
I would speculate that you have a lot of first hand deer hunting experience over a long time and you have acquired much success and knowledge.  It is my belief that sharing that database with others as a compadre and fellow hunter would be more effective than purporting to have all the answers and belittling some of your fellow forum members who are here to learn.
Just a thought, mind you.

I hunt on 28,000 Acres on the SC side, mainly in Swamp where the Habitat hasn't changed in 20 years(the amount of time I have hunted there).  Other than climate change ( we still see plenty of mast) the only change I have witnessed is more and more Armadillo and Coyote.  we kill plenty of Deer, but I have seen a steady decline in the deer population....Sightings, Tracks, Sign, and harvest.  With the Advent of GPS and 4 Wheeler Access, hunters have penetrated deeper in the Swamps and put more man-hours there than ever before; however sign and sightings decline.
I think there are many areas where people are observing this.  
SC has a generous Doe Kill limit(if you can say the word "limit" is appropriate) and GA has continually upped it.  ( I started hunting in the 60s in Ga when it was a good season IF you just SAW a Deer).

When someone says they are seeing less deer, just that in itself can be a challenge to understand until one knows the hunter, his experience, and his level of education about Deer.  Since Deer Hunting is certainly not an Exact Science,  it becomes difficult to qualify or quantify a response to give perspective about the inquiry.  Therefore all this conjecture.  Certainly it does serve at least one purpose and that is to grease the hunter's mind while he awaits another return into the sanctuary.   In addition, there exists a multitude of resources to browse to achieve scientific results from which to reach conclusions.  maybe we should use them.

Thanks for all you say about Deer hunting.  I am just hoping you may keep most of your congregation by sitting next to them in the pew rather than talking sown to them from a pedistal.  You have a lot to offer.  I hope I have not offended you in my suggestion, as I respect your enthusiasm and experience.  Perhaps we may meet in the SC Swamp some day.  You and I know that until one penetrates through dense cover at the Savannah River in search for a buck that few, if any, may ever see, they have a thrill to look forward to.


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## Jeff Phillips (Nov 25, 2008)

ugadeer said:


> We have not killed too many deer in GA, period.  Our densities remain higher than 90% of states and we are finally growing bigger deer and have healthier deer herds.  All the talk of too high of doe harvests is just a lame excuse for changing the way you hunt a "pressured" herd.  The deer are there, they move in the daylight almost everyday and you simply have to find where they sleep and where they eat to see them.  Each year we produce bigger and better mature bucks, the reason?  Less competition for critical food sources in the summer stress periods, b/c there are fewer deer.



If you are hunting where the herd is still strong consider yourself lucky! I can assure you that many of us that are complaining about the low population are not too far below your level of hunting prowess and advanced knowledge.


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## CPiper (Nov 26, 2008)

N4RJ:  Offended? Heck No!! Iv had 2 wives, 2 Mom-In-laws and raised 6 children .... YOU cannot scare, offend or intimidate me!


Yes, it is that simple. If you think there are "too few" deer in your area, stop shooting doe deer or deer all together. And IF you decided to do that it would be from a plan.
And furthermore, Iv suggested that us hunters need to form a plan vs being emotional.
And I understand the pew/pulpit comments - again, no offense taken. Sometime I lead, sometimes I follow, as all of us should do.
I have my hat in my hands and am offering advise and suggestions based on many a year of first handed experience and knowledge. 
I am still changeing and learning - being educated!  Eat the hay - Spit out the stubble. 
I can understand how I might be perceived .... the cocky arrogent SC hunter who thinks he knows it all, then again, I know I am dealing with a bunch of egomanic deer hunters who cant be told what to do .... works all the way around, no big deal by my pea brain.

This has nothing to do with my internet personality. Focus on the priority - The Wildlife, The Habitat, The Hunt ... not me.  

The deer pop and habitat has changed dramatically in SC and I her comments from SC hunters that exact mirror what is in this thread. 
In the end the sum of the equation is, things changed, for whatever reason. The _____ and _____ and _____ impacted the deer population and it declined. Now, it is the deer hunters turn to adapt and change - it is that simple. 
Figure out why and how? Yes! And then plan for the future accordingly. 

More Later ......  HAPPY HOLIDAYS!


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## preacher (Nov 26, 2008)

There are a lot of great points in this thread, but y'all are missing the obvious reason. . .BLACK PANTHERS IN GA


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## CPiper (Nov 26, 2008)

And the GA DNR turned coyotes loose on purpose to keep the deer pops in check.  


n4rj:  
How "scientific" can we get on a hunting internet site? Can most posters and readers keep up? Are they willing to open their minds and try to comprehend the discussion? I suggest and submit a firm No. 
And what I posted thus far IS based on plain and simple deer biology, based on certified scientific research and data.


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## Milkman (Dec 5, 2008)

Here are some links to a couple of threads that explain part of why we are seeing less deer in Ga.

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=269873

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=266489


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## Rainmaker (Dec 8, 2008)

Best post I have read (from flintlock a couple of pages back). Separate from the deer population issue you have hit the proverbial nail on the head that will be the end of hunting: contests. 

No matter what it is called "truck buck", local taxidermy sponsored contests, or whatever but they are a window of evidence of the cancer that lives in the human race. They are removed from what hunting should be about and why we should hunt. The TV shows and commercialization hasn't done anything positive for us either. They have only been positive for the people who pocket the money from their success. 

dcfm or whoever you are... you seem like a "know it all". Just b/c you are fortunate enough to be able to pay the fee to join clubs that are obviously in a superior geographical location than others - that simple circumstance doesn't make you an expert on all deer hunting here in Georgia. 

Also, statistics and numbers can be altered to represent a desired perspective. The question isn't what numbers are you finding on the GA DNR website, but "HOW" is the DNR getting those numbers? Are their studies valid? Did they sample a great enough cross section of the hunting populace? 

Yes, deer sightings are down for many including myself. And yes, I am a darn good hunter so my skills aren't in question as I am sure many other hunter's skills aren't either. 

Drought? Great and valid possibility. Coyotes? another valid possibility - killed one of those last year with my recurve. People killing too many deer? possibly - there is always many an ignorant person with a great hole inside their soul that they feel the need to fill it with "manly" feats in order to feel accomplished and successful. 

Where is the reset button? We need to start this game over before it is over.


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## Rainmaker (Dec 8, 2008)

pope and young said:


> The DNR needs a better plan, GA could be know for big bucks, but you have hunters that get a Gun in there hand and kill any thing that moves, I think High powered rifles should be banned and gun season should not open till the peak of the rut, muzzleloaders, shot guns and bows are the best bet look at other states, that use those laws, Big buck all the time..... Just some of my thoughts..



Another valid post - you have a great point. Seriously.


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## hudalla (Dec 9, 2008)

I think its a combination of things...
1.To many coyotes
2.To much pressure
3.POACHERS!!!!!!
4.High doe limit
5.Drought
6.POACHERS!!!!!!
7.Development of prime deer habitat
8.POACHERS!!!!!!!
9.POACHERS WHO BAIT!!!!
10. did i say poachers?

Any way you look at it not enough people are taking the time to year around "maintance" of the deer heard.  Food plots, supplement feeding (corn if thats your thing), land improvement, killing young deer, what ever it is we need to get a grip on it.  The natural habitat is fantastic in GA but we could be doing more to preserve and increase the deer population.


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## dawg2 (Dec 9, 2008)

Milkman said:


> Here are some links to a couple of threads that explain part of why we are seeing less deer in Ga.
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=269873
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=266489



Are you saying it is from over harvesting?  I got 3 does this year.  One was by herself.  The second was in a group of seven others.  The third was in a group of about five.  Different deer too.  NOw they only come out at night.  I am not seeing a shortage, I am seeing them heavy at night in my pasture, and their trails have changed from what they usually were.  I really think they have learned to AVOID people better.


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## Milkman (Dec 9, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Are you saying it is from over harvesting?  I got 3 does this year.  One was by herself.  The second was in a group of seven others.  The third was in a group of about five.  Different deer too.  Now they only come out at night.  I am not seeing a shortage, I am seeing them heavy at night in my pasture, and their trails have changed from what they usually were.  I really think they have learned to AVOID people better.




Note that I wrote, "part" of why we are seeing less. Yes over harvest is a factor IMO.  As I have posted I am also sold on what you are saying about the deer becoming more nocturnal. There has been much input in this thread on different theories about the lower number of deer sightings. 

Many have openly stated that they have and/or intend to take the limit on deer. That is fully legal and ethical to do so. I have no quarrell with those willing to tell us they shot 8, or 10, or 12, or 17 deer legally in GA. 
I am willing to bet that there are many more who take similar amounts of deer who never tell anyone, let alone us here on the internet.  

I think that the overall deer population in GA would benefit from a lowered limit on deer harvest.


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## dawg2 (Dec 9, 2008)

Milkman said:


> Note that I wrote, "part" of why we are seeing less. Yes over harvest is a factor IMO.  As I have posted I am also sold on what you are saying about the deer becoming more nocturnal. There has been much input in this thread on different theories about the lower number of deer sightings.
> 
> Many have openly stated that they have and/or intend to take the limit on deer. That is fully legal and ethical to do so. I have no quarrell with those willing to tell us they shot 8, or 10, or 12, or 17 deer legally in GA.
> I am willing to bet that there are many more who take similar amounts of deer who never tell anyone, let alone us here on the internet.
> ...




I would agree on that.


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## Qwikdiesel (Dec 9, 2008)

Has there been any scientific evidence of hunting pressure affecting the health of Fawns? Possibly causing the Doe's to have a miscarrage.

I also can vouge for the increase in the yote's. I wish our deer pop would show factual increases like those worthless animals are!!


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## NorthGa.Sportsman (Dec 9, 2008)

Nocturnal-moving to less pressured areas-to many being killed


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## mdhall (Dec 9, 2008)

Complaining about it on here won't make anything change. You've got to talk to the DNR at the info sessions. I'm not for a change, but if  I was, that's where I'd be with valid info to back up my hypothesis.


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## CPiper (Dec 9, 2008)

http://www.qdma.com/articles/details.asp?id=128


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## whchunter (Dec 10, 2008)

*Lots of information*

I think I'll use this information to start a new T-shirt.

 "Why my freezer ain't got no deer meat in it"


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## jimbo4116 (Dec 10, 2008)

Did not read all the posts, so someone might have already mentioned this.  DROUGHT.

The land only supports so many deer and lack of rain reduces that number as the grazing, browse and mast is reduced.


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## lonesome dove (Dec 10, 2008)

I read most of these post, but not all. I actually seen less arguing when I was married to my ex....

People keep saying "15 to 20 years ago there were more deer" , well 15 to 20 years ago there were more trees and places for the deer to live. More food for the deer to eat. More places to hide from us. Surely GOD has seen fit to make sure deer have the ability to control their populations to a degree for their own survival. I don't have a degree in wildlife biology, but it makes sense to me.


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## 25.06 (Dec 10, 2008)

lonesome dove said:


> I read most of these post, but not all. I actually seen less arguing when I was married to my ex....
> 
> People keep saying "15 to 20 years ago there were more deer" , well 15 to 20 years ago there were more trees and places for the deer to live. More food for the deer to eat. More places to hide from us. Surely GOD has seen fit to make sure deer have the ability to control their populations to a degree for their own survival. I don't have a degree in wildlife biology, but it makes sense to me.


I agree with this, makes sense to me. We recognized that we were seeing less deer after 10 years on our property and reduced the limit of deer taken on our property. Without does your deer will be gone. Also I will add that since the state regulations of one buck must have 4 points on one side or more our bucks have gotten much better


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## big A 235 (Dec 10, 2008)

Just stop for a min. and look around you.  There are more houses and less farming.  Then you have the all mighty DNR who don't know a thing about the deer pop. but the say they do and so we have a higher tag limit.  But we all know that the Insurance Co. have the state in their pocket.


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## christianhunter (Dec 10, 2008)

christianhunter said:


> I also belong to the GONetwork,I was a senator with them for a year,and stepped back down to a regular membership.Last year I went to the WRD meeting in coweta county held in April.I had a list of questions to ask from another source,plus my own list.These are facts,and not assumptions.Given to me by John Bowers,Noel Holcombs assistant from DNR.I asked about the sniper shootings in N.Georgia,and asked if the sniper method was contained to that area only,he admitted that the U.S.D.A. snipers,hired by the State.Went where they were needed. They shoot them at night,from big bucks,does,even fawns,in what ever they justify a suitable amount,to harvest.He also admitted that the population amount of 1 to 1.2 million deer as the states population was exaggerated to prompt hunters into harvesting more deer.
> These areas are sub-divisions,wooded areas close to,any type congested area.The introduction of coyotes,was denied by Noel Holcomb himself.He danced around the birth control rumor,neither admitting,nor denying.I didn't get much worthwhile response on the Network forum,but these are all facts,if you doubt,please feel free to use my name,when contacting them.
> I was at the meeting 4/17/07,my name is as follows,with my cell number,I'm not afraid,and I'm totally against it,I emailed Sonny Perdue 3 times about my disgust about it,without our input,and he just kept redirecting me to Noel Holcomb.This is how truthful I'm being about it,I have given all of my info.
> 
> ...



NO RESPONSE!
Conspiracy Theory Right?

Keep ignoring it,thats what they expect you to do.Surely they are not doing this."This Guy"is just nuts.
Yeah keep dreaming,you'll see,or should I say "not SEE".


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## SlipperyHill Mo (Dec 10, 2008)

Big Deer Contests are not the problem!!!!!!!

They may contribute a little.

See CPiper previous posts.

CH, It really is not as complicated as it seems.


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## 3.5 YR-OLD BAMBI (Dec 10, 2008)

*letem walk*

To many killers in georgia!!!!need more hunters or people that will let deer walk.

WE NEED TO  all the


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## jpb31 (Dec 10, 2008)

dchfm123 said:


> Lord I love reading the tears in this thread.
> 
> We are not killing any more does now than 10 years ago.  The percentage of hunters that kill more than they can eat is very low, most hunters kill 2 or less does a year.  I know more hunters that do not harvest any does than I do that kill them.  In 2001-2002 we killed 202,000 does, last year we killed 194000 does.  Did anything change with the doe tag change, nope.    In 2001-2002 there were 294619 licenses sold, in 2007-2008 there were 241000 licenses sold.  Same amount of deer killed with fewer hunters seems people are seeing and harvesting the same amount of deer.  The interesting thing is that the amount of does harvested per Hunter has not changed by more than 1 or 2 percent, but the amount of 2.5 year old bucks has doubled.  QDM at its best.
> 
> People can argue all day long about this but the fact is that numbers don't lie.  The numbers also show that in 1970 hunters spent an average of 41 days in the woods to harvest one doe, compared to last year 13 days to harvest one doe.  If hunting was so bad then why do hunter spend one third less time in the woods to harvest a doe?  I think that the big difference is pressure from hunters.  There is half the hunt able land that there used to be and 10 times the hunters in the woods as there was 30 years ago.  That puts a major amount of pressure on the deer.  The deer are there, they have just become smarter and move less during the daytime.  I personally pay a lot to hunt in clubs that have a very high acre to hunter ratio.  I am in a club with 30 members that hunts on more than 10000 acres.  I am also in another club that has 5 members on 920 acres, we kill 30 plus does a year(members and family) and I can still go hunt a food plot and see 15+ deer on it every evening.  I can go sit in the woods and see deer every time I go out.  These are the benefits of joining a quality club and hunting private land.  Some clubs I see have 30 to 50 members on 1000 acres.  This amount of people and such small amounts of land will run the deer into the ground and they will never crawl out.  Join a quality club on quality land and you will have a different opinion of the deer in GA.


and do you know how they come up with these deer kill numbers they take surveys by talking to a few people you can read it on the ga dnr web site  in black and white how can you get a accurate deer count doing this that the biggest joke ive seen in this post they need to drop the deer limit back to 5 and go back to the tagging system and oh by the way if you look at this the out of state hunting licenses were up 93% that almost 50,000 more hunters in the woods the deer population is dwindeling fast and they need to do somthing people think just because the state of ga. allows people to kill 10 does and 2 bucks they are over populated i see about 50% less deer than i did 3 years ago and 70% less than i did 10 years ago look at the statistics and i have 600 acres that just me and my brother hunt and it is quality land with farms surrouning it with about 8 trail cameras running all the time and and if the deer have addapted to walking at night why arent they doing that we should be getting pictures at night and on top of that we are in a quality  deer managment county the ga dnr is a joke with 1 game warden for every 4 countys


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## Husky Bottoms (Dec 10, 2008)

Seems like all the great places to go hunting in the midwest have actual rules. 1 buck tag one maybe 2 doe tags, lotteries for areas, must check in all deer, must have deer tagged before moving, etc..  I have never in 8 years of hunting in GA so much as had to show my license to anyone.
And of course the billy's that kill everything they see doesn't help.


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## Stingray23 (Dec 10, 2008)

Just jumped back on this thread so I'm not sure if this has been mentioned but over the past two years since we started our supplemental feed stations we've noticed a dramatic decline in deer sightings. Many studies suggest that feeding/baiting deer can alter their behavior and feeding patterns. Seems like over the past years the trend has been as part of our deer management philosophy to feed our deer, which in turn can turn them more nocturnal. Just a thought.


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## Rainmaker (Dec 10, 2008)

SlipperyHill Mo said:


> Big Deer Contests are not the problem!!!!!!!
> 
> They may contribute a little.
> 
> ...




You are absolutely right that big deer contests are not the problem for our population decrease. However, if you will re-read my post you will find why I mentioned them. 

They are a problem, but one of a different nature and consequence. I don't have the time or energy to explain it right now, but I'm sure you can identify some of the potential problems with the larger and more commercialized ones. My father never said, "Son, let's go hunting and see if we can kill a good buck to enter into a contest." The "contest" is between me and what God has created: the animal. 

I search for deer of all sizes for me. Not so I can get my name in a magazine, not so I can wear a Scentlok suit and get on their staff, and most certainly not so I can win a truck. That's my choice though. Your choice may differ. 

Other than that I agree with a lot of what is being said regarding why we have less deer. 

1. A DNR that is curbing and catering to politics from deep pocket companies like they did with the inclusion of the crossbow. 

2. Too high of a limit.

3. Dishonest people who kill over the limit... notice I didn't say hunter b/c they aren't - they are criminals and should be regarded as such. 

4. Drought - I would have never thought of this, but it makes complete sense. 

5. Coyotes

6. Other wildlife competing for the same food sources i.e. feral hogs. 

7.  Too high of a limit.

8. Too high of a limit. 

9. Too high of a limit. 

10. People killing too many deer... 

Just my opinion - which is subject to change based on the weather - and your mileage may vary based on how you drive!


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## Chute270 (Dec 11, 2008)

*Ga. deer herd*

Here is my .02 for what it's worth, and I havent' read all the posts so this may have already been discussed.

I've been an avid Ga. deer hunter for over 35 years, and literally spend hundreds of hours in the deer woods each year.  I take off almost the entire month of November and nearly live in the woods.  I hunt almost everyday of the season.  The problem with the decline of the Ga. deer herd as I see it is two-fold, and I don't believe the liberal bag limit is the main problem.  I do however believe the limit to be way too high.  The number one problem in my opinion is not the limit, but the number of doe days.  When you can shoot a doe everyday of the season, this is the result.  Why not go back to the way it used to be when there were only a few selected doe days, usually toward the end of the season, or just a few scattered throughout the season. Do this and the problem is solved in my opinion.  In my career I've seen the Ga. deer herd go from hardly ever seeing a deer, and even talking about seeing a track for a week, to seeing deer almost everytime I set foot in the woods, to now, seeing deer on a few ocasions.  Granted, I think the quality of the bucks is better to some degree, but I personally enjoy watching deer instead of squirrels.  It is quite frustrating to say the least.  

The number two problem as I see it is coyotes.  No question the deer numbers have declined considerably since their introduction.  At least where I hunt I know this to be true.  I've seen on several different occasions coyotes chasing full grown deer through the woods.  It stands to reason that they are playing havoc on the fawn population.  Something has to be done to off-set the predation done by these beasts, and I believe that to be limit the doe days.  It's a common sense approach to solving what I consider to be a major problem.  Coyotes are here to stay and cannot be eradicated, so in order for Ga. deer hunters to continue to have a quality experience, something must be done soon to balance and manage our resourses more effectively and responsibly.  Just my opinion.


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## Curtis-UGA (Dec 11, 2008)

I see plenty maybe ya'll are hunting too deep in the woods. If you can't smell whats cooking for supper,  make out the dogs and kids name are or hear a guy cuss when he hits a bad drive you are too deep in the woods!


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## Howard Parker (Dec 11, 2008)

The limit on deer in our state is to high. Everyone that goes hunting wants to be successful, but sometimes we have to look at these crazy  DNR officials and say enough is enough. If you keep shooting your mature does each year your population is definitely going to go down. Your rut is thrown out of wack and you're wondering whats going on. Quit giving in to all this QDM crap fellows; it's not going to work! If you want to see game, quit killing all your does. They aren't all going nocturnal. You are hurting the population. Back off a little. Make your voice heard and tell DNR to reduce the limit!


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## muzzy (Dec 11, 2008)

Boy, what a thread.   We went from too many deer in the late eighties, now not enough. 


Here a few details some of you are overlooking. If you have spent the last twenty years hunting the piedmont region, you might want to look around at the habitat loss this region has suffered. Dont expect the DNR to give you sixty deer per square mile in Henry county any longer, aint gonna happen. 

Just because you can kill twelve deer,,,,,, what percentage of hunters actually take this many?

When the DNR sets limits and seasons, those are determined from a long term plan, they dont manage the statewide herd on a yearly basis. The densities that they publish are highly accurate, they dont ride around and guess. They use aerial, and heat seeking equipment to arrive at these numbers.


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## rumcreek (Dec 11, 2008)

Deer are becoming more and more nocturnal because of hunting pressure


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## deerbuster (Dec 11, 2008)

As others have said too high of a limit....I would like it go down to say 1 buck and 3 does...But I think again that the pressure, lack of food in some areas, drought. Some hunters (not all) just go out slaying deer that they really dont need, I understand Hunting for the hunger thats great...But some people just see that as an invitation to slaughter deer.


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## nickel back (Dec 12, 2008)

Stingray23 said:


> Just jumped back on this thread so I'm not sure if this has been mentioned but over the past two years since we started our supplemental feed stations we've noticed a dramatic decline in deer sightings. Many studies suggest that feeding/baiting deer can alter their behavior and feeding patterns. Seems like over the past years the trend has been as part of our deer management philosophy to feed our deer, which in turn can turn them more nocturnal. Just a thought.



I'm with ya on this I said the same thing in another thread( http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=270605)   .......good food plots are ten times better than supplemental feed


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## Shook (Dec 12, 2008)

*deer*



ForestNinja said:


> Well this one is easy. You got a 10 doe limit. It takes does to make more deer. Kill all the does and you soon have no deer. That was EASY



amen


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## larpyn (Dec 12, 2008)

i learned something from this thread...... some people know everything.......
and they are a legend in their own mind


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## gunsaler111 (Dec 13, 2008)

I think coyote predation is worse than we all think.Ive watched yotes chase 2 does at flat creek,killed 1 yote.This year in taylor county,we walk up on a spike, dragged down and eaten by them.During turkey season ,I cant count the number of times ive heard fawns in trouble.Not sayin they were all coyote attacks,but, you cant dismiss the rise of coyote populations and decline in deer sightings.
 I coyote hunt ALOT at night with lights,And i bet every night ,I see yotes runnin deer.
I really wish DNR would come up with a 20-50$ license,to hunt on wma with lights and electric calls.The months between deer and turkey seasons would be perfect.You could carry it through june or so.This would put pressure on yotes,who will move to other areas, free from hunting pressure,And your fawns would have at least half a chance.


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## 25.06 (Dec 14, 2008)

gunsaler111 said:


> I think coyote predation is worse than we all think.Ive watched yotes chase 2 does at flat creek,killed 1 yote.This year in taylor county,we walk up on a spike, dragged down and eaten by them.During turkey season ,I cant count the number of times ive heard fawns in trouble.Not sayin they were all coyote attacks,but, you cant dismiss the rise of coyote populations and decline in deer sightings.
> I coyote hunt ALOT at night with lights,And i bet every night ,I see yotes runnin deer.
> I really wish DNR would come up with a 20-50$ license,to hunt on wma with lights and electric calls.The months between deer and turkey seasons would be perfect.You could carry it through june or so.This would put pressure on yotes,who will move to other areas, free from hunting pressure,And your fawns would have at least half a chance.



I think you may be right, a friend of mine was turkey hunting on the land that joins mine in northern lamar 
county and had a coyote run in and grab his decoy. then
in upson county on our hunting land a member had a coyote come in while just calling turkeys. myself and a friend were at flint river wma last year on a hog hunt
and i used a pig distress call and within 5 minutes a
coyote came in.


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## Condor (Dec 14, 2008)

*Fawn mortality due to coyotes*

I have recently read about a survey that claimed that up to 30% of all fawns in some areas are killed by coyotes in the first 3-4 months of life.   Apparently they examined coyote scat and found that during the spring many coyotes have a primarily deer diet.   If you think about hunters killing does during the hunting season and then coyotes killing 30% of the fawns, it is not hard to understand why the deer population in most areas keeps going down.

State game officials feel that up to 45% of the herd can be harvested every year to keep the herd at a level keel.   What they haven't figured is the 30% coyote fawn kill in with regular mortality.

I recently read a story about the re-introduction of wolves into Alberta, Canada and how the moose and wolf poplulation has equalized at numbers that almost preclude humans hunting any moose.   I would assume that deer in Georgia are going in the same direction.    

I wonder how bad the deer hunting will have to get before the DNR makes any changes in the regulations.   

As far as the coyote population goes, I understand that for a time during the 80's, Heard county offered a $50 bounty for every coyote head that was brought in.   Although it worked well, they discontinued because they were getting coyote heads from every county within a 250 mile radius of Heard county.   Alot were coming from Alabama, imagine that.


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## Swamprat (Dec 14, 2008)

Arrow3 said:


> I don't consider 10 (if theres that many) good for over 100 acres.



Actually that would be good.....it would equal to over 60 deer per square mile which then would be bad because of over population.


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## Jeff Phillips (Dec 14, 2008)

Heard today that one of the real big processors in Oglethorpe County said they are down over 60% off their average.

They normally do 4500 deer per year and they have not hit 1500 yet this year.

Guess everyone who hunts in that part of the state forgot how to hunt


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## Swamprat (Dec 14, 2008)

Jeff Phillips said:


> Heard today that one of the real big processors in Oglethorpe County said they are down over 60% off their average.
> 
> They normally do 4500 deer per year and they have not hit 1500 yet this year.
> 
> Guess everyone who hunts in that part of the state forgot how to hunt



I think alot of that is economic related...people ain't wanting to pay to have a deer processed when they can cut the hams, shoulders, backstrap, etc out themselves or it is just a lack of out of state hunters who normally pay for those services. Drop the deer off and pick it up at season's end.


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## Allen Waters (Dec 14, 2008)

has anybody ever thought about this?

in areas that we know are heavily populated with coyotes and we know they are effecting the fawn survival rate.....
do you think this kind of coyote population could as well...... effect the amount of deer movement we are seeing.  is it possible deer in these areas are not only less but also more cautious and move and travel differently due to coyotes.  i'm not saying they do. just wondering if anybody else thinks that is possible.  could or would a predator effect deer movement the same way hunter pressure does?


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## kpeels (Dec 14, 2008)

*Dnr atention needed!!!!!!!!!!*

well if you have 10 does a year and 2 bucks to kill it is going to then them out quickly i have hunted all my life and never seen such small  amount of deer in the late 80s i could go to stand and see anywhere from 2 to 20 deer in a single sitting but now if i see 10 deer all season its a good one dnr is making deer population go down the drain one thing you do not have to tag deer anymore so lots and i mean lots of hunters will not even record there deer harvest and kill over the limit of bucks because they dont have to tag them and if you report it to dnr they say we will check in to it but never do i have had poachers on my land for years now hunting my fields at night and reported it several times but not one person has been arested so blame dnr for not seeing no more deer i know there is a shortage of them but when someone tips them off they should respond to it!!!!i reported someone hunting on my property this year and left note on stand as a warning and called the local dnr about this and he wouldnt even meet me to see where i found the stand so i told him the location and went back next week they moved the stand about 50 more yards in my property so i took the stand hoping they would come and get it at camp but have not yet the only thing the ranger ask was( is ther any bait near by) i guess i should have told him yes its like if they were not hunting over corn its ok to tresspass so i blame dnr i have not killed a doe in 5 or 6 years trying to help the deer herd build back up but all i get is a lot of doe carcusses dumped on my property for it


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## kpeels (Dec 14, 2008)

*qdm state wide*



kpeels said:


> well if you have 10 does a year and 2 bucks to kill it is going to then them out quickly i have hunted all my life and never seen such small  amount of deer in the late 80s i could go to stand and see anywhere from 2 to 20 deer in a single sitting but now if i see 10 deer all season its a good one dnr is making deer population go down the drain one thing you do not have to tag deer anymore so lots and i mean lots of hunters will not even record there deer harvest and kill over the limit of bucks because they dont have to tag them and if you report it to dnr they say we will check in to it but never do i have had poachers on my land for years now hunting my fields at night and reported it several times but not one person has been arested so blame dnr for not seeing no more deer i know there is a shortage of them but when someone tips them off they should respond to it!!!!i reported someone hunting on my property this year and left note on stand as a warning and called the local dnr about this and he wouldnt even meet me to see where i found the stand so i told him the location and went back next week they moved the stand about 50 more yards in my property so i took the stand hoping they would come and get it at camp but have not yet the only thing the ranger ask was( is ther any bait near by) i guess i should have told him yes its like if they were not hunting over corn its ok to tresspass so i blame dnr i have not killed a doe in 5 or 6 years trying to help the deer herd build back up but all i get is a lot of doe carcusses dumped on my property for it



let them walk we could all have nice ones then


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## Blisterapine (Dec 15, 2008)

I know coyotes get some but back when I had a lot of deer there were a lot of coyotes , now I only see a few coyote tracks and rarely see one. The strange thing about my area is..there is a lot of habitat and barely any hunters , no one is killing the deer but they never seem to multiply year to year.


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## Jeff Phillips (Dec 15, 2008)

Swamprat said:


> I think alot of that is economic related...people ain't wanting to pay to have a deer processed when they can cut the hams, shoulders, backstrap, etc out themselves or it is just a lack of out of state hunters who normally pay for those services. Drop the deer off and pick it up at season's end.



Unemployment went from 4.5% to 6.7% and 60+% of hunters decided to cut up their own deer


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## Milkman (Dec 15, 2008)

Our DNR wants your input on hunting and outdoor issues.
They hold public meetings every year.

The link below is the schedule of meetings planned for next month for that purpose.

Are you going?

http://www.gohuntgeorgia.com/documentdetail.aspx?docid=440&pageid=1&category=hunting


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## F.A.R.R. (Dec 15, 2008)

Interesting thread to follow, many different and good ideas about the subject shared.  One thing everyone seems to agree on is the habitat and deer densities are different across our (large) state.  I bring up the question that knowing this is true why are the bag limits, and anterless days,  the same in a majority of our counties ? Shouldn't they vary just like the deer densities and habitat does?

The high limit and long doe season must be contributing to reducing the herd, along with  poaching, predators, car wrecks, and natural mortality.  Does it stand to reason that all of these factors should be taken into account when bag limits are determined, and then an antlerless harvest (for legal harvest)could be projected and allocated on a county or regional basis?


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## Mechanicaldawg (Dec 15, 2008)

Milkman said:


> Are you going?



What? And mess up a perfectly good excuse to just randomly blast that which we don't understand??!

All these hits on your thread and history tells us that if 10 sportsmen show up for any one of those meetings it would be quite a surprise.


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## Jeff Phillips (Dec 15, 2008)

Jeff Young said:


> What? And mess up a perfectly good excuse to just randomly blast that which we don't understand??!
> 
> All these hits on your thread and history tells us that if 10 sportsmen show up for any one of those meetings it would be quite a surprise.



You and I have sat in those meeting together (Remember when I asked for a show of hands in Covington?) when 90% of the folks voted against the doe limit and nothing changed. 

Why should I waste my time if they are not listening to what the hunters have to say? The meetings are a joke!

They would rather hide behind their computer models and say everything is just fine than actually burn some boot leather and see what the REAL conditions are.

What I understand is:

1) The WRD does not want a thriving deer herd. Read the long range plan.

2) The demographics are changing, so WRD does not support hunting like they did in the 80's and before. Bird watching and hiking trails will take priority. Deer hunters are WAY down the list!

3) Many deer hunters are just too dumb to realize that they have been duped and are contributing to the death of our sport.


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## oldman 45 (Dec 15, 2008)

Well I can honestly say I have been hunting in Bartow County since 1962 and I have seen more deer, more bucks this year than ever before, 7 bucks in 1 day to me thats awesome,  I use to hunt all season and see 2-4 deer all year but that was in the 60's, we are covered up in Bartow, does are everywhere and all over the roads.


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## nickel back (Dec 15, 2008)

F.A.R.R. said:


> Interesting thread to follow, many different and good ideas about the subject shared.  One thing everyone seems to agree on is the habitat and deer densities are different across our (large) state.  I bring up the question that knowing this is true why are the bag limits, and anterless days,  the same in a majority of our counties ? Shouldn't they vary just like the deer densities and habitat does?
> 
> The high limit and long doe season must be contributing to reducing the herd, along with  poaching, predators, car wrecks, and natural mortality.  Does it stand to reason that all of these factors should be taken into account when bag limits are determined, and then an antlerless harvest (for legal harvest)could be projected and allocated on a county or regional basis?



yea but the problem here is the WRD really does not know 
what Ga. population is from county to county

Ga. needs a way to record how many Doe and how many 
bucks are being harvested each year


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## carabrook (Dec 15, 2008)

Here's some food for thought/question that we have. During Bow season we saw deer all over our place. I don't remember how many I saw but my wife kept track of her count and she was at thirty, then rife started and hunting the same area she has seen a total of six. We are still seeing plenty of tracks but for the most part they are coming and going from the pines which in years past was not where they held up, usually they were in the thick hardwood slash but not this year. A walk through our pines last week and there was tons of deer droppings and places where they had been digging up mushrooms. Maybe one of the issues is with the lack of rain the open hardwood areas have not held enough moisture to grow the mushrooms. In yrs gone by I have sat in the hardwoods watching them eat the mushrooms up..................JMO


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## AnesMerc (Dec 15, 2008)

jpb31 said:


> and do you know how they come up with these deer kill numbers they take surveys by talking to a few people you can read it on the ga dnr web site  in black and white how can you get a accurate deer count doing this that the biggest joke ive seen in this post they need to drop the deer limit back to 5 and go back to the tagging system and oh by the way if you look at this the out of state hunting licenses were up 93% that almost 50,000 more hunters in the woods the deer population is dwindeling fast and they need to do somthing people think just because the state of ga. allows people to kill 10 does and 2 bucks they are over populated i see about 50% less deer than i did 3 years ago and 70% less than i did 10 years ago look at the statistics and i have 600 acres that just me and my brother hunt and it is quality land with farms surrouning it with about 8 trail cameras running all the time and and if the deer have addapted to walking at night why arent they doing that we should be getting pictures at night and on top of that we are in a quality  deer managment county the ga dnr is a joke with 1 game warden for every 4 countys



This is a period > . < We use them to end sentances and trains of thought. It is really hard to read a paragraph without them. Thanks.


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## jpb31 (Dec 15, 2008)

well i dont know about all of this i know the dnr has no clue how many deer are killed all they do is take a survey by talking to people that is how they come up with the kill numbers does not seem to me that the coyotes are not any worse now than 10 years ago i actually see less of them i can tell you i have herd more shots in the last 3 years that i have ever heard i counted 60 in one day during the rut this year also deer have 4 legs it does not take many deer to make alot of tracks i remember seeing deer crossing were there would be ruts in the ground and no leaves in them not anymore i hunt in randoph county around brooksville and the deer procsseor there has taken in over double  the deer this year i had a chance to talk with him this year for awhile even he is overly concerned about all the deer being killed and brought in he says it is good for him but the deer are going to get shot out if they keep doing this also he  told me the state better crack down and go back to the tagging system because he knows alot of people are killing more than there limt also if you look at the dnrs web site you can see the out of state hunting licences were up 93.6% this year that is unbelivable i think the dnr only cares about the money they bring in a out of state license is 200.00 bucks i sure hope they do somthing we have seen less and less deer the last 3 years and we have not taken a single doe in 5 years we just dont see them or get them on out trail cameras


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## jpb31 (Dec 15, 2008)

AnesMerc said:


> This is a period > . < We use them to end sentances and trains of thought. It is really hard to read a paragraph without them. Thanks.


well ok its funny no one said anything untill now i am sure your old enough to manage or are you? or is that all you can find to do is worry about a couple of periods or maybe your on one ...thanks just kidding.


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## christianhunter (Dec 15, 2008)

Trap and kill all the coyotes you can,and tighten the screws on DNR.
That might get things back on track.One or two coyotes a season is not going to get it.


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## F.A.R.R. (Dec 15, 2008)

C.Killmaster said:


> Some more food for thought.
> I'm sure everyone can agree that the cost per acre of hunting leases has gone up in the last 10 years.  On an average club then each member probably killed maybe 1 or 2 deer.  As lease prices keep going up, you end up taking on more members to avoid pricing out the rest.  If each person continues to kill 1 or 2 deer with the number of members increasing, you may end up overharvesting.
> 
> When establishing club rules, you really need to focus on the harvest per square mile and not per hunter.  If you don't think you have enough deer and your harvest exceeds 10-12 deer per square mile, you need to back off on your harvest.
> ...



If I remember correctly this post is from a Wildlife Biologist? I wanted to share a story about why the current bag limits are not good.  I hunt in a county where published information puts the deer densities at some where between 30-40 per square mile.  On the 150 acres next to the land I hunt 16 deer were taken in one season.  This works out to be well above the 33% which can be taken without a decline. This area isn't overpopulated with deer, it's just  a case were these people shoot any deer they see(this is private land so the only rules they have to follow are set by the state).  This is why I question the regulations, and feel more regulation is needed to keep people from overharvest.  I have a 2 year old son, I'd like to be able to see him enjoy deer hunting the way I have, under our current regs. I am not sure about the direction we are headed.


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## Mechanicaldawg (Dec 16, 2008)

Jeff Phillips said:


> What I understand is:
> 
> 1) The WRD does not want a thriving deer herd. Read the long range plan.
> 
> ...



Jeff, of course you know that I have read the 'long range plan' and I realize that it does not say anything of the sort.

What it says and demonstrates is that they believe that in some areas the herd needs to be reduced while in some areas it does not.

They (legislature) have given us the liberty of a liberal limit so that we, as sportsmen and conservationists, can make the judgments on the property we hunt and help to balance the herd. Surprisingly enough, it seems that we are doing a pretty fair job of it.

The sky is not falling. The deer herd is doing quite well.


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## Mechanicaldawg (Dec 16, 2008)

F.A.R.R. said:


> If I remember correctly this post is from a Wildlife Biologist? I wanted to share a story about why the current bag limits are not good.  I hunt in a county where published information puts the deer densities at some where between 30-40 per square mile.  On the 150 acres next to the land I hunt 16 deer were taken in one season.  This works out to be well above the 33% which can be taken without a decline. This area isn't overpopulated with deer, it's just  a case were these people shoot any deer they see(this is private land so the only rules they have to follow are set by the state).  This is why I question the regulations, and feel more regulation is needed to keep people from overharvest.  I have a 2 year old son, I'd like to be able to see him enjoy deer hunting the way I have, under our current regs. I am not sure about the direction we are headed.



Why do we blame the actions of citizens on the government? Change the topic and make this post in the political forum and you'd be tarred and feathered as a socialist.

The regulations do not instruct citizens to go out and massacre the herd. You state that the "only rules they have to follow are set by the state". Have you never heard of voluntary restraint?


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## dgr416 (Dec 16, 2008)

*Why we see less deer in Georgia*

The dnr could care less about hunters and deer in general.They are way more interested in people who ride horses and bikes on wmas and parks .They care more about insurance companies that pay claims on deer colisions .The best way to reduce this is to get rid of the deer.The deer do hole up in the places that are not hunted .The number of places that cant be hunted are increasing way more than places that can be hunted.It looks like there are more deer in some places.The over all numbers are way down in most places.I think the estimate of 1.2 million by the dnr is way off.There needs to be more people in the dnr that care about hunting and deer .I went to school with a few of the biologist at uga that got jobs with the f&g .They didnt hunt or fish and regarded most hunters in a very negative view.It really seemed they didnt want to hire people who hunted .Hunters and their money are the best conservation tool for deer.If it were not for hunters their would not be any dgr or dnr jobs.Somehow the tide needs to be turned before its too late.They are trying to turn wmas into parks for everything else but hunting .The cost of hunting has also increased to where alot of people have given up hunting also.The pressure on public land has increased due to this also.Its going to take alot of doing to turn the tide from the rut our dnr has gotten us in these days.Some people actually like less deer asnd more trophy management.Me I like sseing deer instead of counting squirrels in the tree.When you go from seeing 300-500 deer a year in a season to 7-15 it really makes you loose interest.I put out trail cams to see if they were out at night.A few does is what i got in my pictures alot of the cams had nothing.When there are no tracks there are no deer.When we get the dnr to caring is when we might make some headway.They will feed you a bunch of bull about why your not seeing as many deer.


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## BEEVUS (Dec 16, 2008)

Don't think that big insurance companies have nothing to do with bag limits on deer.  The car insurance company lobbyists have lots to say about the damage deer cause on the roadways.  Pennsylvania is a good example, they now can shoot 4 deer and have an archery and muzzleloader season.  The most hunted state in the US is now in a decline of deer population, you can now shoot doe there.  

The decline of habitat, the increase of harvest, increase of hunters, modern technology of GPS's and more comfortable treestands....the deer don't have a chance.

We....as good stewards of the land should be balancing the capacity of the land with predation too.  Lot's of us deer hunt, how many of us Coyotee hunt?  

TWELVE DEER IS TOOOOOOOOO MANY.  Not all of us are ethical!


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## Milkman (Dec 16, 2008)

Jeff Young said:


> The regulations do not instruct citizens to go out and massacre the herd. You state that the "only rules they have to follow are set by the state". Have you never heard of voluntary restraint?




Jeff,
I respect your opinion and am glad to see you share it here. 

It seems to me we have this going on. We have what is scientifically known to be best management practices (BMP) to keep the deer population from decreasing. Such as limited harvest of 33% or less of an estimated population of deer. 
But on the other hand we have DNR limits of 12 deer per season with opportunities of taking even more on special hunts on WMAs and State Parks. 

*It seems to me that what we need in order to retain our deer population, is for known BMPs and our regulations be more closely in line with each other.*

Im sure this could be micro-managed with allowing different limits and seasons in different areas. However with the current "state of the state" budget wise we are lucky to even have a DNR.


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## F.A.R.R. (Dec 16, 2008)

Jeff Young said:


> Why do we blame the actions of citizens on the government? Change the topic and make this post in the political forum and you'd be tarred and feathered as a socialist.
> 
> The regulations do not instruct citizens to go out and massacre the herd. You state that the "only rules they have to follow are set by the state". Have you never heard of voluntary restraint?



I only give my example as a case in point that there are hunters who have no restraint, and seemly are not conservation minded.  Other posts are throughout the thread which indicate similar experiences.


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## Jeff Phillips (Dec 16, 2008)

Jeff Young said:


> What it says and demonstrates is that they believe that in some areas the herd needs to be reduced while in some areas it does not.



Why would the herd reduction be applied to the whole state when the herd only needs to be reduced "in some areas"?

You know that I am very conservative in my thinking and believe that less government intervention is best. BUT many of my fellow hunters can't seem to keep their finger off the trigger

I have read more than 1 post on here where hunters say the state WANTS them to take 12 deer! Folks are continuing to claim that our herd is out of balance? It is not even remotely possible that the sex ratios are out of whack when 60+% of the kill for the last 10 years has been females???

As we saw in the Covington meeting, WRD is following the money. The 1 big land owner who voted for the higher limits carried the day versus all of the regular joes who voted against!

I have NO FAITH in the WRD at this point!


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## nontypical12 (Dec 16, 2008)

On our lease in Emanuel County, we are being overtaken by wild hogs.  Our club has set strict rules to kill every hog we see - with no excuses.  I have kept very detailed hunting logs for the past 8 years, and have seen a dramatic decline in observed deer this year.  For example, during the 2007 season, I saw 46 deer from my various stands.  So far this season, I have seen 3.  It is been, by far, my worst year since I began hunting nearly 30 years ago.  Game cameras show a significant decline, as well, with many more pictures of hogs than of deer.

I believe it is a combination of bag limits, coyotes, and (in my area) hogs competing for the available food.

Just my semi-educated 2 cents...


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## PoBoy (Dec 16, 2008)

We base our doe harvest on years experience hunting.  If you are a youngster or new to hunting, shoot yourself a doe or two.  If you have 10 or more years of hunting experience, then become a hunter and go for the big boys.  Let the easier prey be for the less experienced.


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## Souhternhunter17 (Dec 16, 2008)

Well I agree that Ga shouldnt have a 10 doe limit, but most of us dont shoot that many anyways so thats not the main problem. I belive that most hunters are lazy and dont want to get out of there comfort zone to get the deer. I am a victum of this, I dont like missin the breakfast hour. bacon, eggs and sausage.


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## Quack-Wacker (Dec 17, 2008)

the dnr increased the doe limit due to a decrease in hunters, we were on the brink of over population. another thing is in places like burke county our doe to buck is somewhere around 6-1 qdm sugest 3-1ish. and even raising the limit to 20 will not do anything if hunting continues to decline. if you want to hunt trophy deer only then qdm has no place for you. if you want to fill your freezer with everything that moves qdm has no place for you. if you want our deer heard to be the best it possibly can be then take a kid hunting.


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## F.A.R.R. (Dec 19, 2008)

For those interested heres a link to an article written by Jimmy Jacobs giving an overview of the difficulties the DNR
faces from a budget perspective and a glimpse of where dollars collected from sportsmen go:

http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/printedition/2008/12/18/outdoors.html


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## deramey67 (Dec 20, 2008)

dchfm123 said:


> Well sound like you need to turn him in.  I think the Slogan is TURN IN POACHERS Followed by this number 1-800-241-4113.  If it is such a concern turn them in.  You could be punished by law if you had this info of larger crimes and did not report the law breaker to the police.



called last week to turn someone in and got no answer the game wardens can,t do it when the law don't back them up I know someone who got caught for killin over his limit  and he still has the right to hunt that ain,t right . Also got told if your not the land owner you can't call in on someone poaching only the land owner can call. the limit of deer you can kill is to high and theirs not stiff enough penalties for poachers. We the hunters need to change this if you want your kids and grand kids to hunt


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## deramey67 (Dec 20, 2008)

and for those of you that say deer are goin nocturnal easy solution let responsible coonhunters hunt on your land and you will see more deer during the day I know this for a fact. I have 100 acres that backs up to 5200 acres of national forest And when i started deer hunting it i hardly seen any deer Started coonhunting on it just pleasure huntin with my wife and kids started seeing more deer and gettin more pics on game cam. so there a easy answer for the nocturnal problem.


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## deramey67 (Dec 20, 2008)

for the problem of deer goin noctural simple let responsible people coonhunt. This has helped my problem of not seeing any deer I also get more pics of deer in the daytime now. And yes I am a coonhunter and yes this did help me on the 100 acre tract i hunt that backs upto 5200 acres of national forest. My game cam could hang there for a week and only have 5 pics Now I will get About 20 a week and most of them during the day


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## scott s (Dec 20, 2008)

We had a trail cam on food plot before season and had about 140 pic per week.When acorns started dropping it when to 7-12 a week.I think the deer are moving less because of food and also moving more at night. I know few guys that limit out on doe tags not to said some don't. That's my just my thoughts.


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## christianhunter (Dec 20, 2008)

Milkman said:


> There have been several threads and posts related to this recently.
> 
> Many of us are seeing less deer in some areas that formerly offered more deer sightings. Is it simply that there are less deer ? Have they become more nocturnal than they used to be?
> 
> ...



Milkman,
Considering the number of hits you've got,and the number of posts.It has come to my attention,that most of us would rather give our on opinion on the lack of deer,than to face some of the reasons,there are really less deer.I guess people would rather feel secure in the belief,that things are alway's as  "Big Brother" say's they are.This is a great Thread,and the majority of the people who have posted have posted logical,and some truthful posts.I think it is going to be a good Thread to start people thinking,at least I hope it will.


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## Milkman (Dec 20, 2008)

Thanks CH,


that is why I started this thread and have moderated it by dumping most of the off topic and derailing posts.

I hope many who have posted their beliefs here will attend a DNR public opinion meeting in their area next month, and share what is really happening out here in our Ga woods.

As I stated a few posts back..... It seems to me that what we need in order to retain our deer population, is for known BMPs and our regulations be more closely in line with each other.


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## GA DAWG (Dec 20, 2008)

Make a poll.. See how many on here are willing to lower the limit.We can print it off and take it to one of these meetings..I plan on going to the lumpkin county one to complain about the gates on all these wmas being closed for us small game hunters.Yet deer hunters and horse riders and bike riders can go all over the place!


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## F.A.R.R. (Dec 21, 2008)

Milkman said:


> Thanks CH,
> 
> 
> that is why I started this thread and have moderated it by dumping most of the off topic and derailing posts.
> ...



It sure makes allot of sense to see regulations  in line with BMPs in a given area.  From reading the posts on the thread seems like most recognize much variance in the resource.


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## bestbucks (Dec 21, 2008)

High bag limits and over development in the state. Its a no brainer!


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## Rich Kaminski (Dec 21, 2008)

*My thoughts*

#1 The limit is very high compared to other states.
#2 The Yotes are a problem now and do cause the deer to go noctorial and to group up for protection.
#3 We need more natural and planted food plots as well as supplemental feeding to see greater numbers of deer again.
#4 Those of us who know how to hunt and have honed our skills over many years of being in the woods can and do see deer almost everytime we go into the woods. We just don't shoot anything we see. We are selective because shooting the first deer you see reduces your chances of finding and stalking a great animal. And thats where the fun is.


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## Millpond (Dec 21, 2008)

*Liberal doe limits is NOT the problem*

I haven't read every post, so don't know if this has been mentioned.  To the people complaining about the limit being raised, I believe the limit in Alabama was and still is 1 deer per day.  Alabama's deer population is just as strong if not stronger than ours.  What we are seeing our deer population go through is a cyclical fluctuation in population.  Any time a population of any species grows larger than what a habitat can sustain, the population will shrink.  Just like the wild turkey in Georgia.  The DNR finally determined this year that our wild turkey population is at capacity.  This was determined due to the fact that the last three years have seen a slight decrease in population due to poor hatches.

As for the number of deer being seen, I have seen more deer this year at our farm in Lee County than ever before.  A attribute this in part to the improved habitat, but also to the way I hunt.  I had to completely change my hunting strategy because the deer movement had dramatically changed over the past couple of years.

On a side note, I have also seen more Yotes this year than ever before.

Also, most hunters I know only shoot what they need to eat.  I know there are people out there that just want to kill, and it doesn't matter what they kill or how many, but I would like to think that they are few and far between.


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## christianhunter (Dec 21, 2008)

Jeff Phillips said:


> You and I have sat in those meeting together (Remember when I asked for a show of hands in Covington?) when 90% of the folks voted against the doe limit and nothing changed.
> 
> Why should I waste my time if they are not listening to what the hunters have to say? The meetings are a joke!
> 
> ...



Couldn't have said it better myself,Wouldn't have referred to anyone as dumb though.


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## christianhunter (Dec 21, 2008)

nontypical12 said:


> On our lease in Emanuel County, we are being overtaken by wild hogs.  Our club has set strict rules to kill every hog we see - with no excuses.  I have kept very detailed hunting logs for the past 8 years, and have seen a dramatic decline in observed deer this year.  For example, during the 2007 season, I saw 46 deer from my various stands.  So far this season, I have seen 3.  It is been, by far, my worst year since I began hunting nearly 30 years ago.  Game cameras show a significant decline, as well, with many more pictures of hogs than of deer.
> 
> I believe it is a combination of bag limits, coyotes, and (in my area) hogs competing for the available food.
> 
> Just my semi-educated 2 cents...



A lot more than a semi educated post,but a very educated post.Well said!


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## christianhunter (Dec 21, 2008)

Millpond said:


> I haven't read every post, so don't know if this has been mentioned.  To the people complaining about the limit being raised, I believe the limit in Alabama was and still is 1 deer per day.  Alabama's deer population is just as strong if not stronger than ours.  What we are seeing our deer population go through is a cyclical fluctuation in population.  Any time a population of any species grows larger than what a habitat can sustain, the population will shrink.  Just like the wild turkey in Georgia.  The DNR finally determined this year that our wild turkey population is at capacity.  This was determined due to the fact that the last three years have seen a slight decrease in population due to poor hatches.
> 
> As for the number of deer being seen, I have seen more deer this year at our farm in Lee County than ever before.  A attribute this in part to the improved habitat, but also to the way I hunt.  I had to completely change my hunting strategy because the deer movement had dramatically changed over the past couple of years.
> 
> ...



They changed it to three bucks per season,last year I think maybe the year before.


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## Milkman (Nov 27, 2009)

Its one year since I started this thread.   Anyone got any new ideas or want to add anything to it?????


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## cathooker (Nov 27, 2009)

Guys are doing way too much scouting with trail cams etc. Sitting in treestands before the season trying to see what is in their area....In a nutshell they are spending too much time in their hunting areas and leaving too much scent. My partner and I did not go into our hunting area but one time before the rifle season. The first week of the Alabama season we hunted for four days and saw a combined total of  close to 50 deer. We saw several nice bucks just no shooters. We each took our mandatory two does. We change locations often and never over hunt an area. Some guys will hunt the same stand over and over and over. They take the same route to the stand regardless of the wind direction. Deer will pattern this and you won't see them. Just my two cents worth and it works well for us.


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## dawg2 (Nov 27, 2009)

cathooker said:


> Guys are doing way too much scouting with trail cams etc. Sitting in treestands before the season trying to see what is in their area....In a nutshell they are spending too much time in their hunting areas and leaving too much scent. My partner and I did not go into our hunting area but one time before the rifle season. The first week of the Alabama season we hunted for four days and saw a combined total of  close to 50 deer. We saw several nice bucks just no shooters. We each took our mandatory two does. We change locations often and never over hunt an area. Some guys will hunt the same stand over and over and over. They take the same route to the stand regardless of the wind direction. Deer will pattern this and you won't see them. Just my two cents worth and it works well for us.


Wel I hunt the ground and move around.  But I do see what is out there.


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## FishinMech (Nov 27, 2009)

Ok then why does bama not have this problem they have a deer a day limit. And they are just fine.


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## LAKOTA (Nov 27, 2009)

I have no idea what's causing the lower deer population, and without proof, all ideas and theories are just that - ideas and theories. I have absolutely no doubt that the population has been on the decline for at least 10 yrs where I've hunted. This includes Monroe, Haralson, Carroll, Jones, Paulding and Polk counties. 

I used to count on Christmas break for meat. For many years it was common to see 6-10 does running together in December. I don't see that anymore and haven't in a very long time. I never see that many does at one time - anywhere. Deer sightings period have been way off for several years.

Whatever is happening, it's very disappointing and is driving many to give up and quit hunting.

Who knows?


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## biker13 (Nov 28, 2009)

Times have changed.The limit is to high and the coyotes are working on them hard.Gotta kill the yotes if the deer are going to come back,acorns are rotting on the ground cause the population is not up like it was.Dang the 10 doe limit.


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## FishinMech (Nov 28, 2009)

Yall in Alabama you can kill like 60 freaking deer in a year and when i go there hunting i see tons of deer. It not the limit, And all that crap there trails have changed and the times they move i see every night on my way home between 15&30 deer on the side of the road. The deer have learned how to avoid hunter and that is to move in the middle of the night.


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## Jeff Phillips (Nov 28, 2009)

FishinMarine09 said:


> Yall in Alabama you can kill like 60 freaking deer in a year and when i go there hunting i see tons of deer. It not the limit, And all that crap there trails have changed and the times they move i see every night on my way home between 15&30 deer on the side of the road. The deer have learned how to avoid hunter and that is to move in the middle of the night.



1st off, Alabama has a lot less hunters and a lesser percentage of developed land. I think they got rid of the deer a day regs a few years back. 

2nd, most of the guys I have hunted with in Bama take a few does early, then they hold off waiting for the rut. Many hunters in Georgia shoot every legal deer they see.

Compare the percentage of does in the harvest for either state and get back to us.

3rd, the deer have not gotten "smarter" over the past few years, they have always been a predominantly nocturnal animal. We have killed them. When we kill a 1/3 of the herd every year and 2/3 of the deer killed are does, the population goes down. Add to that the issue with yotes eating more than 50% of the fawns before they reach 6 months of age and we are in the middle of a population crash.

Your little corner of the world may be in good shape, but others are really struggling, and it's not because all the other hunters are lazy and the deer IQ has increased.


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## Hawkeye7 (Nov 28, 2009)

I don't have an answer Milkman but I have wondered if the weather is a factor. Heavy rains and flooding in areas following drought. Seems like it's warmer later in the year. I too think we have too many doe days (or limits) but this has already been discussed at length. I also have no confidence in numbers. There are lies, (blank) lies, and statistics. Yes, I read the link to the other thread you refered to.
I'm about as frustrated as anyone. This has been my worst season in the last 10 years. I'm hunting forestry land.


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## LAKOTA (Nov 28, 2009)

FishinMarine09 said:


> i see every night on my way home between 15&30 deer on the side of the road.



Wow! Do you mind giving me the coordinates to that road? I'm pretty close to Paulding county.


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## Ohoopee Tusker (Nov 28, 2009)

Jeff Phillips said:


> 1st off, Alabama has a lot less hunters and a lesser percentage of developed land. I think they got rid of the deer a day regs a few years back.
> 
> 2nd, most of the guys I have hunted with in Bama take a few does early, then they hold off waiting for the rut. Many hunters in Georgia shoot every legal deer they see.
> 
> ...




You got it. Yotes, doe kills, drought. It's all working against the deer population.


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## christianhunter (Nov 28, 2009)

Milkman said:


> There have been several threads and posts related to this recently.
> 
> Many of us are seeing less deer in some areas that formerly offered more deer sightings. Is it simply that there are less deer ? Have they become more nocturnal than they used to be?
> 
> ...



WRD/DNR are sniping them at night,and poisoning them with "birth control"it kills them,it doesn't make them infertile.They are also not telling the truth of the population either.What about the proposed no limit on does a few years back?
What about the promised land acquisition of 1987?
There are less deer,because of DNR/WRD...........FACT!


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## cathooker (Nov 28, 2009)

> 1st off, Alabama has a lot less hunters and a lesser percentage of developed land. I think they got rid of the deer a day regs a few years back.


In most areas of Alabama you can kill two a day of either sex but only one can be a buck. IE....two does or one buck and one doe. It has changed from a buck a day to only three bucks per year. We kill a couple of does each early then get serious about big buck hunting.


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## Big Eights (Nov 28, 2009)

i have hunted pinelog wma for many  years and there are nowhere as many deer now as years past. in the early 90's deer were thick and they would kill around 100 deer a year per season. well the last 10 years the kills are way down and they are olny takeing a few does. so an area that big why does the deer herd keep going down. you cant blame it on over kill.


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## LAKOTA (Nov 28, 2009)

I'm beginning to think that the Coyote idea could be a huge part of the problem as well. Think about it. How long ago was it that they started releasing them again in GA ????   ........... They are EVERYWHERE now. You can see Coyote roadkill on most any section of Interstate in Ga. Even around Downtown Atlanta. If they can survive near Atlanta in small tracts of land, they're having no problems surviving AND multiplying in the suburbs. We have a pack that comes through our area about twice a month. 

Another factor is they are multiplying and NOBODY hunts them. From what I understand, they are hard to hunt. Can't say myself as I have never tried.

My Father was telling me about some study/documentary on TV that he caught about the Coyote impact on deer. Fawns in particular. I don't remember the specifics (I didn't see the show), but however many fawns they tagged, only 28% lived. I wish I could have caught the show so I could remember the specifics. Maybe someone here saw it and could elaborate?


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## whchunter (Nov 30, 2009)

*Deer Herd*

I have a feeling that the problem of decreased sightings are due to 2 things. The first is draught and the decrease of food. The lack of rainfall in the past years coupled with lack of food crops and depreciation of natural forrest food (such as acorns, crab apple, persimmons etc. by so called "stewarts of the land better know as money hungry pine growers").  Deer are smart enough to self regulate and will have fewer fawns. Some fawns are lost at birth due to lack of doe health and some are lost after birth due to lack of milk and food. 
The second part is too high limits set by the state which should be adjusted based on issues such as above on a yearly basis. As I said deer can self regulate but the state is too ignorant or lazy to change yearly based on constant changing conditions.


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## hurricanebaseball (Nov 30, 2009)

One reason we are not seeing as many deer is there are too many people that are sneaking around stealing our stands out of the woods. Me and my 8 year old went in this past sunday morning and I went to put him in his small climber that he worked and earned money for and it was gone. The skum that took it also left his calling card of a pile of corn under the tree where the stand was. It takes a real man to steal a kids climber out from behind his own house.


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## antlermike1 (Nov 30, 2009)

First post on the forum. On this thread i have seen very few bad postings. I agree on the coyotes, drought, bag limit, killing every deer seen, more deer in cities and private land surrounding them, and some not caring about how many they shoot. However I think that if someone wants to live off venison and are legally able to do it then it is up to them. Problems I see is that as hunters we rely on the gov to tell us what is what. We have to decide individually what is best for the area we hunt. I hunt national forest land and will pass on does cause of the pressure unless i need a deer for the year.


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## antlermike1 (Nov 30, 2009)

As far as kids and hunting. I am divorced for a year now and my daughter didnt take long to realize dad was the best place to be and came home. Shes 16 now and this is her first season with me. Im used to hunting jackson barrow county farms and the move to the larger woods and different terrain of the oconee national has me rattled. Teaching a kid that hunting is hunting and its not all about killing a deer is hard when your sitting there with shots all around and she says "this is ridiculous, are you doing something wrong dad?" My relpy to this thread is am I doing something wrong or is the herd down. Besides part of hunting is pulling the trigger and having a deer down. Kids really need some success, if only once. We have been 12 times and not seen a deer. Need topo lessons we think


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## Ray32 (Nov 30, 2009)

Could the Chronic Wasting Disease be a problem?


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## Diamond Girl (Nov 30, 2009)

dchfm123 said:


> Lord I love reading the tears in this thread.
> 
> We are not killing any more does now than 10 years ago.  The percentage of hunters that kill more than they can eat is very low, most hunters kill 2 or less does a year.  I know more hunters that do not harvest any does than I do that kill them.  In 2001-2002 we killed 202,000 does, last year we killed 194000 does.  Did anything change with the doe tag change, nope.    In 2001-2002 there were 294619 licenses sold, in 2007-2008 there were 241000 licenses sold.  Same amount of deer killed with fewer hunters seems people are seeing and harvesting the same amount of deer.  The interesting thing is that the amount of does harvested per Hunter has not changed by more than 1 or 2 percent, but the amount of 2.5 year old bucks has doubled.  QDM at its best.
> 
> People can argue all day long about this but the fact is that numbers don't lie.  The numbers also show that in 1970 hunters spent an average of 41 days in the woods to harvest one doe, compared to last year 13 days to harvest one doe.  If hunting was so bad then why do hunter spend one third less time in the woods to harvest a doe?  I think that the big difference is pressure from hunters.  There is half the hunt able land that there used to be and 10 times the hunters in the woods as there was 30 years ago.  That puts a major amount of pressure on the deer.  The deer are there, they have just become smarter and move less during the daytime.  I personally pay a lot to hunt in clubs that have a very high acre to hunter ratio.  I am in a club with 30 members that hunts on more than 10000 acres.  I am also in another club that has 5 members on 920 acres, we kill 30 plus does a year(members and family) and I can still go hunt a food plot and see 15+ deer on it every evening.  I can go sit in the woods and see deer every time I go out.  These are the benefits of joining a quality club and hunting private land.  Some clubs I see have 30 to 50 members on 1000 acres.  This amount of people and such small amounts of land will run the deer into the ground and they will never crawl out.  Join a quality club on quality land and you will have a different opinion of the deer in GA.


That is *IF* the numbers being reported are accurate...


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## win280 (Nov 30, 2009)

Diamond Girl said:


> That is *IF* the numbers being reported are accurate...



Most don't report any deer kill so the states accessment that 300,000 hunters killed  294872(Wild guess)deer is not very accurate.
But IMO I  think the  prolonged drought(health of deer),long season (makes them nocturnal),predation(less deer survival rates), are what is causing the decrease in the herd. I would lower limits,put a bounty on yotes and decrease the length of the season to 1 month bow Oct 1-Nov 1,  1 month gun season Nov 1- Dec 1. 1 week muzzleloader during thanksgiving and 1 week at christmas.


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## 00Beau (Nov 30, 2009)

Too long of a season in Ga., too large of quota on does, kill the does and you essentially take out three at a time, add in the ones killed by cars, predators and die from injury of a bad shot or predator injury is alot more than what DNR think are dying each year. They need to put it back down to four does at the most and one buck a year at least for 6-8 years. I know everyone does not kill 12 a year, but some kill more than 12 a year, IMO that is way too high.


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## flatwoods (Nov 30, 2009)

Coyotes
On my land every doe you see usually has little ones.
This year I have seen one doe with two little ones.
None of the other does have young ones. 
Haven't seen any young ones alone either.
Getting worse every year.


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## Throwback (Nov 30, 2009)

FishinMarine09 said:


> Yall in Alabama you can kill like 60 freaking deer in a year and when i go there hunting i see tons of deer. It not the limit, And all that crap there trails have changed and the times they move i see every night on my way home between 15&30 deer on the side of the road. The deer have learned how to avoid hunter and that is to move in the middle of the night.






T


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## Crooked Stick (Nov 30, 2009)

*My two cents...........*

I grew up hunting Hancock Co. Hunted there until 204 when they sold the land off. I can remember hunting when I was a teenager and hearing close to 50 shots per morning. this was in the late 80's early 90's. We had a huge tract of land yanked out from under us but we still had 500 acres next to it. I can remember the first year those "new" people were in there! I heard 4 wheelers riding all over the place well before day light and some of them after daylight. The rule where i used to hunt was you parked on the road and walked! I think that there are way too many people riding their toys through the woods all year and educating the deer. I think there are just as many deer. they just have learned our new ways. I hunt a small parcel of land that you can't access unless you hoof it. i see tons of deer. I think good woodsman-ship would help some people. Hang your stands in July and stay out of your area.

Just my two cents


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## 00Beau (Nov 30, 2009)

Crooked Stick said:


> I grew up hunting Hancock Co. Hunted there until 204 when they sold the land off. I can remember hunting when I was a teenager and hearing close to 50 shots per morning. this was in the late 80's early 90's. We had a huge tract of land yanked out from under us but we still had 500 acres next to it. I can remember the first year those "new" people were in there! I heard 4 wheelers riding all over the place well before day light and some of them after daylight. The rule where i used to hunt was you parked on the road and walked! I think that there are way too many people riding their toys through the woods all year and educating the deer. I think there are just as many deer. they just have learned our new ways. I hunt a small parcel of land that you can't access unless you hoof it. i see tons of deer. I think good woodsman-ship would help some people. Hang your stands in July and stay out of your area.
> 
> Just my two cents


 I agree 100%, I also hunt a small tract and always see deer, but I still think limits are too high.


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## Throwback (Nov 30, 2009)

Crooked Stick said:


> I grew up hunting Hancock Co. Hunted there until 204 when they sold the land off. I can remember hunting when I was a teenager and hearing close to 50 shots per morning. this was in the late 80's early 90's. We had a huge tract of land yanked out from under us but we still had 500 acres next to it. I can remember the first year those "new" people were in there! I heard 4 wheelers riding all over the place well before day light and some of them after daylight. The rule where i used to hunt was you parked on the road and walked! I think that there are way too many people riding their toys through the woods all year and educating the deer. I think there are just as many deer. they just have learned our new ways. I hunt a small parcel of land that you can't access unless you hoof it. i see tons of deer. I think good woodsman-ship would help some people. Hang your stands in July and stay out of your area.
> 
> Just my two cents



WHAT? You mean you can't drive a truck from camp a half mile, unload an ATV and drive the final 200 yards to the stand, get off the pegs and step directly onto the stand's steps and climb up and expect to see as many deer as you do by walking?

T


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## LAKOTA (Nov 30, 2009)

I just can't see the deer becoming so educated that they can elude hunters over and over everyday without running into other hunters in an area. Especially when one hasn't drastically changed his way of hunting? In other words, I hunt the same way I did 12 yrs ago, but I've seen much less deer in the last 5-6 yrs. I don't ride and atv to a stand, I don't smoke, I always try to play the wind even though I use so called scent eliminators, I dress in full camo including a full face mask, etc., etc.

Hunters used to stomp and stink up the woods with sweaty armpits, plaid shirts and blue jeans. No "high definition" camo, no face masks, no scent eliminators or "Scentlok" clothes, and no lures, and still saw plenty of deer in the woods during daylight hours.

I just can't grasp the idea of deer getting so smart that they elude hunters on the same land over and over for an entire season?


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## 00Beau (Nov 30, 2009)

Stinky hunters can still get lucky if a deer comes the wrong way and does not smell him, but I can guarantee you at my place they relate a four wheeler with danger, they come running when all the hunters come in behind my place, I do not allow them on my property any time of the year, guy in  club beside me that I lease the land for them has complained  for three years about not seeing deer and he always rode his four wheeler all the way in, finally convinced him to stop and he is seeing deer everytime he hunts now and he is a member on here, in turkey season last year 4-5 does ran from a four wheeler that was at least 200 yards away on other property and the does nearly ran myself and another member on here over going away from it, not scientific but I have seen it with my own eyes hundreds of times.


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## Hawkeye7 (Nov 30, 2009)

win280 said:


> Most don't report any deer kill so the states accessment that 300,000 hunters killed  294872(Wild guess)deer is not very accurate.
> But IMO I  think the  prolonged drought(health of deer),long season (makes them nocturnal),predation(less deer survival rates), are what is causing the decrease in the herd. I would lower limits,put a bounty on yotes and decrease the length of the season to 1 month bow Oct 1-Nov 1,  1 month gun season Nov 1- Dec 1. 1 week muzzleloader during thanksgiving and 1 week at christmas.





Crooked Stick said:


> I grew up hunting Hancock Co. Hunted there until 204 when they sold the land off. I can remember hunting when I was a teenager and hearing close to 50 shots per morning. this was in the late 80's early 90's. We had a huge tract of land yanked out from under us but we still had 500 acres next to it. I can remember the first year those "new" people were in there! I heard 4 wheelers riding all over the place well before day light and some of them after daylight. The rule where i used to hunt was you parked on the road and walked! I think that there are way too many people riding their toys through the woods all year and educating the deer. I think there are just as many deer. they just have learned our new ways. I hunt a small parcel of land that you can't access unless you hoof it. i see tons of deer. I think good woodsman-ship would help some people. Hang your stands in July and stay out of your area.
> 
> Just my two cents



Well said. Both of you.


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## LAKOTA (Nov 30, 2009)

I'm not doubting ATVs disturb deer. I have seen the same thing,  but not everybody claiming to see less and less deer has atvs running all over their land. Take WMA's and NF lands. ATV's are banned there, and there are tons of people claiming to see less and less deer on those lands.

Heck, I cringe every time my Father slams the door or tailgate on the truck when we arrive to hunt.


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## smalljawbasser (Nov 30, 2009)

CPiper said:


> The #1 thing that impacts deer density is Changes in the Habitat.
> Deer density is tied directly tied and bonded to nutrition.
> Land cannot support the deer density, deer density goes down.
> Land can support the deer density, deer density goes up.
> ...



that's exactly right.  it's called mother nature.  and she will adapt and overcome what is thrown at her.  sooner or later, she'll balance herself out.  it's just the natural order of things.  the drought is probably the culprit, and since it's over i'd assume the population would pick back up to normal.

i also think high numbers of black panthers could also contribute to any decline in deer populations.


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## Steve Thompson (Nov 30, 2009)

GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You all have to know that this is by plan. Yotes just spun the results a few years ahead of the state plan.
 Kill a bunch of cayotes in the spring and I bet you'll see more fawns. Problem is they kill yearlyings as well. We watched two take down a spike on the shore line of a private lake. The cayote is a player in this issue. Having this high limit is really stupid.


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## 6.5swede (Nov 30, 2009)

dchfm123 said:


> Lord I love reading the tears in this thread.
> 
> We are not killing any more does now than 10 years ago.  The percentage of hunters that kill more than they can eat is very low, most hunters kill 2 or less does a year.  I know more hunters that do not harvest any does than I do that kill them.  In 2001-2002 we killed 202,000 does, last year we killed 194000 does.  Did anything change with the doe tag change, nope.    In 2001-2002 there were 294619 licenses sold, in 2007-2008 there were 241000 licenses sold.  Same amount of deer killed with fewer hunters seems people are seeing and harvesting the same amount of deer.  The interesting thing is that the amount of does harvested per Hunter has not changed by more than 1 or 2 percent, but the amount of 2.5 year old bucks has doubled.  QDM at its best.
> 
> People can argue all day long about this but the fact is that numbers don't lie.  The numbers also show that in 1970 hunters spent an average of 41 days in the woods to harvest one doe, compared to last year 13 days to harvest one doe.  If hunting was so bad then why do hunter spend one third less time in the woods to harvest a doe?  I think that the big difference is pressure from hunters.  There is half the hunt able land that there used to be and 10 times the hunters in the woods as there was 30 years ago.  That puts a major amount of pressure on the deer.  The deer are there, they have just become smarter and move less during the daytime.  I personally pay a lot to hunt in clubs that have a very high acre to hunter ratio.  I am in a club with 30 members that hunts on more than 10000 acres.  I am also in another club that has 5 members on 920 acres, we kill 30 plus does a year(members and family) and I can still go hunt a food plot and see 15+ deer on it every evening.  I can go sit in the woods and see deer every time I go out.  These are the benefits of joining a quality club and hunting private land.  Some clubs I see have 30 to 50 members on 1000 acres.  This amount of people and such small amounts of land will run the deer into the ground and they will never crawl out.  Join a quality club on quality land and you will have a different opinion of the deer in GA.



agree you said it all !!


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## Nicodemus (Nov 30, 2009)

I still see some.


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## Steve Thompson (Nov 30, 2009)

We use to see herds of deer driving through Oconee national, BF Grant, Ceder Creek, on the way to our place. The fields on our lease would have 100's on each field, as week took inventory at night. Now - it's a bit more reasonable, not as many deer, not to say there's none, just not as many..


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## LAKOTA (Nov 30, 2009)

dchfm123 said:
			
		

> In 2001-2002 we killed 202,000 does, last year we killed 194000 does. Did anything change with the doe tag change, nope. In 2001-2002 there were 294619 licenses sold, in 2007-2008 there were 241000 licenses sold. Same amount of deer killed with fewer hunters seems people are seeing and harvesting the same amount of deer.



Deer kills are estimates, not facts. All of the guesstimates are useless as far as I am concerned. I take every estimate that the DNR makes with a bag of salt, not a grain. I have yet to see proof that these are anywhere near accurate.


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## Jeff Phillips (Nov 30, 2009)

LAKOTA said:


> Deer kills are estimates, not facts. All of the guesstimates are useless as far as I am concerned. I take every estimate that the DNR makes with a bag of salt, not a grain. I have yet to see proof that these are anywhere near accurate.



The WRD makes a SWAG at the number of deer killed and another SWAG at the number that are left.

I wonder how the coyote is factoring into their SWAG?

The WRD is quickly losing all credibility with hunters!


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## Hawkeye7 (Nov 30, 2009)

LAKOTA said:


> Deer kills are estimates, not facts. All of the guesstimates are useless as far as I am concerned. I take every estimate that the DNR makes with a bag of salt, not a grain. I have yet to see proof that these are anywhere near accurate.



There are lies, (blank) lies, and statistics. I agree with your point. 
There have been many good points brought out from the start of the thread. From coyotes to doe days to drought.


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## Throwback (Nov 30, 2009)

Nicodemus said:


> I still see some.



You actually hunt. 

T


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## Throwback (Nov 30, 2009)

Jeff Phillips said:


> The WRD makes a SWAG at the number of deer killed and another SWAG at the number that are left.
> 
> I wonder how the coyote is factoring into their SWAG?
> 
> The WRD is quickly losing all credibility with hunters!



So how should they get their numbers?

T


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## LAKOTA (Nov 30, 2009)

Hire 30 people, build a few massive CPU's, and require every single hunter that purchases a Big Game license to fill out and return their deer tags. If they do not return them, refuse to sell them a hunting license next year..........

Just a thought since 95% of our license fees go to the WRD to in some way benefit the hunters that purchase them.    

This is fun.


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## LHCLLLC (Nov 30, 2009)

Just my experience, two years ago I purchased a piece of property. As we walked through the property we had to search to find any deer sign. We knew we had our work cut out for us but knew the area had potential. After, thinnings, adding 8% of the property in year around food plots, creating sactuary areas, not over hunting stands, using electric atvs to get around, prescribed fire, planting trees, meeting our neighbors and letting them know what we were doing and passing small bucks we are seeing the results, a lot of deer. I think if we look at a state like Kansas we can see where a lot of our problems lie. Kansas has a 12 day gun season (after the rut). They are a low populated state, we are getting loved to death, they are mainly agriculture, we are mainly pines and suburban growth and getting more. They have 1 buck limit, we have 2 and that is a big deal. I am not a big DNR fan, in fact I just don't like them period, but I do like the 12 deer limit we have. I don't want the government telling me what I can and cannot do.  I like the freedom to manage our herd and my land as I best see fit. Poachers don't care if the limit is 2, 5 or 20, they do what poachers do. Turn them in. I hope everyone has a safe and successful season.


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## JNG (Nov 30, 2009)

I have trouble believing yotes are a big part of Georgia's problem.  I've moved back to Indiana, which has had a large yote population for years.   I see half a dozen yotes a season on a single piece of property up here--some guys I know see 12+.  
I also see deer just about every time I hunt those properties--often on the same days I see the yotes.  There are more yotes up here than in Georgia, and the deer are doing just fine.

I suspect the the drought is the real culprit.


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## cjoice (Nov 30, 2009)

JNG said:


> I have trouble believing yotes are a big part of Georgia's problem.  I've moved back to Indiana, which has had a large yote population for years.   I see half a dozen yotes a season on a single piece of property up here--some guys I know see 12+.
> I also see deer just about every time I hunt those properties--often on the same days I see the yotes.  There are more yotes up here than in Georgia, and the deer are doing just fine.
> 
> I suspect the the drought is the real culprit.



I have to agree... I was out this afternoon hunting a small tract of woods while the cotton stalks were being mowed less than 200yds outside the woods. I watched three doe's  and a small buck walk out in front of me and the kicked up another on my way out. Deer get used to hearing engines...why else do they cross the road and get hit? IMO the drought has been a major factor.


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## Throwback (Dec 1, 2009)

LAKOTA said:


> Hire 30 people, build a few massive CPU's, and require every single hunter that purchases a Big Game license to fill out and return their deer tags. If they do not return them, refuse to sell them a hunting license next year..........
> 
> Just a thought since 95% of our license fees go to the WRD to in some way benefit the hunters that purchase them.
> 
> This is fun.



And what other programs will be cut to pay for those 30 people and their expenses? Waterfowl? WMA's? PFA'S? Or alternatively how high will the license costs go to pay for it? How will you pay for the massive CPU's? What kind of system will be bought to ensure the licenses won't be sold to them? How many more enforcement people will be hired to make sure those that don't have a license next year because they didn't tend their obligations last year still want to sneak around and hunt? How will you pay for that? How will all these people be trained and how will that be paid for? What about vehicles for them? Surely they can't be effective sitting behind a computer all day? What about gas? Where will they be based from? How will that be paid for and expenses and upkeep be made? 

Nothing is "free". 




T


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## bull59 (Dec 1, 2009)

I guess I'm throwing in my opinion late on this one but here it is anyway. First thing is that it doesn't matter what the limits are as long as deer don't have to be checked at a check station. Second thing is that most of the horn hunters will kill does for the meat they want instead of a young buck. Third is yotes. Finally  the previous poster enlightened us to drought effecting the spring and summer food sources. Just keep in mind that this problem isn't everyone's. Many of us haven't seen a decrease in deer sightings.


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## Jeff Phillips (Dec 1, 2009)

Throwback said:


> And what other programs will be cut to pay for those 30 people and their expenses? Waterfowl? WMA's? PFA'S? Or alternatively how high will the license costs go to pay for it? How will you pay for the massive CPU's? What kind of system will be bought to ensure the licenses won't be sold to them? How many more enforcement people will be hired to make sure those that don't have a license next year because they didn't tend their obligations last year still want to sneak around and hunt? How will you pay for that? How will all these people be trained and how will that be paid for? What about vehicles for them? Surely they can't be effective sitting behind a computer all day? What about gas? Where will they be based from? How will that be paid for and expenses and upkeep be made?
> 
> Nothing is "free".
> 
> ...



Add $10 to a resident big game license and $25 on the non-resident. Designate the money to the deer check in program. It could be done with 5 people and a couple of lap tops.


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## Throwback (Dec 1, 2009)

bull59 said:


> I guess I'm throwing in my opinion late on this one but here it is anyway. First thing is that it doesn't matter what the limits are as long as deer don't have to be checked at a check station. Second thing is that most of the horn hunters will kill does for the meat they want instead of a young buck. Third is yotes. Finally  the previous poster enlightened us to drought effecting the spring and summer food sources. Just keep in mind that this problem isn't everyone's. Many of us haven't seen a decrease in deer sightings.



Two years ago during the season we saw maybe 3 different bucks on the farm. After the season ended 13 (thirteen) bucks were in a 5 acre  hay patch lounging around. Wonder where they were all season..........


T


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## Throwback (Dec 1, 2009)

Jeff Phillips said:


> Add $10 to a resident big game license and $25 on the non-resident. Designate the money to the deer check in program. It could be done with 5 people and a couple of lap tops.




How would 5 people handle 159 counties and 9 million people? 


T


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## Jeff Phillips (Dec 1, 2009)

Throwback said:


> How would 5 people handle 159 counties and 9 million people?
> 
> 
> T



Do it like the check stations in Tenn. Country stores sign up to be check stations. When a deer is killed the hunter places the temporary tag on the animal. When it is checked in the deer is tagged with the permanent tag and the tempoary tag is sent to WRD. The store supplies the next tag.

The stores quickly become hang outs for hunters, the store gets loads of business, and everyone is happy.

The 5 people enter the information from the tag into a data base to accuratly show the kill for the state.


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## jagman (Dec 1, 2009)

Insurance companys run the world that is the reason for 10 doe tags. 1. insurance companys
2. deer have gone nocturnal because of all the corn piles laying around the woods. no need to walk around looking for food in the day light hours when you have a big corn pile outside your bedroom.
3. hunters killing ever doe they see and wonder were the deer have gone.


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## JNG (Dec 1, 2009)

jagman said:


> 2. deer have gone nocturnal because of all the corn piles laying around the woods. no need to walk around looking for food in the day light hours when you have a big corn pile outside your bedroom.



Great point.


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## antlermike1 (Dec 1, 2009)

I believe in scientific evidence (not by the dnr), common sense, and my own observations. coyotes kill deer, especially fawns. fawning time for them is like the rut for us. they get full and fat on venison. Doe harvest in your are is to high, you will have less deer. Shoot one doe and in 3 years that equates into many deer exponetially. kinda like compound interest. I skinned deer at a cooler in barrow co. to make xtra money about 4 years ago. I have learned many things there. one is that some land is just superior for deer no matter what the weather, harvest in area, coyotes, or any other factors. 90 percent of the deer are on ten percent of the land, big bucks included. Dont know if it has changed or not but the coolers were required by the dnr to record the county,sex, and name of hunter at drop off. then they would collect the duplicate info during the season. game warden would come by and pick up the collection tickets. This is the only way they have to guess at the harvest. There are tens of thousands of deer not accounted for. The info i have read about deer themselves being able to control birthing in response to habitat is that when it gets really bad and not enough nutrition for the does is sometimes the does body will absorb one of two fetuses and that more buck fawns are born. courtesy of deer and deer hunting mag.


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## LAKOTA (Dec 1, 2009)

Throwback said:


> And what other programs will be cut to pay for those 30 people and their expenses? Waterfowl? WMA's? PFA'S? Or alternatively how high will the license costs go to pay for it? How will you pay for the massive CPU's? What kind of system will be bought to ensure the licenses won't be sold to them? How many more enforcement people will be hired to make sure those that don't have a license next year because they didn't tend their obligations last year still want to sneak around and hunt? How will you pay for that? How will all these people be trained and how will that be paid for? What about vehicles for them? Surely they can't be effective sitting behind a computer all day? What about gas? Where will they be based from? How will that be paid for and expenses and upkeep be made?
> 
> Nothing is "free".
> 
> ...


That was part of my point, most of our hunting dollars (specifically) aren't going where they should be! And haven't been for a long time. But, that's another story...


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## Throwback (Dec 1, 2009)

Jeff Phillips said:


> Do it like the check stations in Tenn. Country stores sign up to be check stations. When a deer is killed the hunter places the temporary tag on the animal. When it is checked in the deer is tagged with the permanent tag and the tempoary tag is sent to WRD. The store supplies the next tag.
> 
> The stores quickly become hang outs for hunters, the store gets loads of business, and everyone is happy.
> 
> The 5 people enter the information from the tag into a data base to accuratly show the kill for the state.



Sounds a lot like biologists going to deer coolers, looking at the intake numbers, pulling jawbones and recording any relevant data......minus the tag. 

And all that does is tell how many deer are KILLED by hunters, not how many are out there to begin with, which is what the apparent problem is. There's a whole host of reasons why the numbers killed might go up and down, but that don't necessarily reflect on the population as a whole. 

What about the deer in wrecks? we need to accuratly know how many are killed by cars to get an exact number. Should everyone involved in hitting a deer with a car be required to report it, too? It takes a big toll on the population, too, and not half I'd bet are reported. 




T


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## Milkman (Dec 2, 2009)

WOW !!!!

Im glad I woke this old thread up......... Good discussion and ideas going here !!!!


How bout it DNR, (or other knowledgable folks)....... what would it take to initiate interest in a bounty program for shooting them nasty yotes ?????

I have heard that the state of Louisiana pays a bounty for trapping the critters that burrow in the dikes down there. Anyone know how that is funded?? or the Beaver tail bounty listed above, how is that funded??


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## Throwback (Dec 2, 2009)

Milkman, 

It would take ALL landowners allowing people to hunt to kill coyotes (good luck with that) , a bounty high enough to allow people to hunt full time (probably several hundred dollars a coyote)and make a living at it and hunters, no, make that *killers *that wanted to kill themselves out of a job. 

If you "kill them all" on your club, and the landowner next door, and the other one, and another one, and another one, don't care or don't allow hunting for some reason, it's a moot point, they just move same as anything else. This is the biggest problem or at least one of the bigger ones. Coyotes live in central park in NYC and downtown los angeles. It's like saying "we're going to exterminate cockroaches".

In short, they cannot be exterminated they can only be somewhat controlled. 


T


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## Milkman (Dec 8, 2009)

Throwback said:


> Milkman,
> 
> It would take ALL landowners allowing people to hunt to kill coyotes (good luck with that) , a bounty high enough to allow people to hunt full time (probably several hundred dollars a coyote)and make a living at it and hunters, no, make that *killers *that wanted to kill themselves out of a job.
> 
> ...



Throwback,
Have options for controlling the coyote ever been considered by the DNR to your knowledge...... also, do you know how other states fund the bounty programs?


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## Milkman (Dec 8, 2009)

Some people say the the modern fad of foodplots have caused the whitetail to become more nocturnal due to food being so much easier to find, Perhaps so

But this reasoning would mean deer in agricultural crop areas would have become nocturnal many generations ago, correct ?


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## bones-n-beards (Dec 8, 2009)

DONT OPEN FIREARMS SEASON UNTIL AFTER THANKSGIVING !!! ...Problem Solved


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## DanBROWNING (Dec 8, 2009)

dchfm123 said:


> You guys are unbelievable.  You complain that you dont see deer yet look at the truck buck page, look at the deer harvest data.  One of 2 things is happening.  Either you are in a bad area and need to look for a new club, or your a bad hunter and need to rethink and change your stratagy.  It amazes me how yall continue to say there is a problem when their is at most localized area of lower deer density.  Every state has this even the mighty texas, kansas, iowa and so on.  Not everywhere is deer hunters mecca.  If you want to see tons of deer, start hunting in an area of the state that has good deer densitys.  I am willing to bet that 80% of the people complaining hunt in the northern or southern parts of the state where it is expected to see lower deer populations.  Join a club in a county that is in the peidmont region, or has a major river basin running through it, or agriculture, or around atlanta and you will see tons of deer.  Its about where you hunt not how many are killed each year, we don't kill enough.



wellllll it sure is funny that less and less deer are harvested off of OUR WMA,s every year,hmmmm could it be that there are less deer to hunt? ive hunted oconee wma for the last 7 years and i can tell you that there are less deer being checked out while there are more and more hunters. must be that there are more and more bad hunters? i dont think so, lets go back to the old limits i cant remember ever hearing hunters complaining about not getting to kill 10 does ,can you?


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## Arrow Flinger (Dec 8, 2009)

First off, I believe in QDM if the whole concept is practiced including herd and land management.  But.....I think it is one of the main culprits of the decling herd in our area.  Too many clubs pick and choose which parts to practice or really doesn't understand the concept to start with. I ran into a guy a few years ago that had shot a doe that crossed the property line and I helped him track it.  I asked had they seen many deer and he said he had only seen 2 all year and killed both of them  " we practice QDM and they said we need to shoot a bunch of does".  That is not a bad thing if the herd is badly over populated but our area is for sure not one of those areas.   Those guys raped the land and dumped the lease after they couldn't get members any more.  The land has changed hands now and is under much better management.  But I have seen some advertisements for the club and they stated their desire was a 2-1 buck to doe ratio.  While this might work elsewhere, I can't see it happening in our area and really don't want to see it happen.  

 15 hunters paying big bucks to hunt a thousand acres and letting the little bucks walk  (good thing!).  The bad comes when they think shooting a bunch of does is herd management.  That helps justify paying the big bucks they payed cause they get some meat out of the deal.  I am not against a feller taking home some back strap and love to myself but the numbers don't work real good.  15 hunters, 2 does apiece= 30 does.  40 deer per sq mile is good for most areas.  1000 acres= 66 deer- 30 dead does= 36 deer on a 1000 acres.  This is not even counting the bucks that are killed and natural deaths.  You now have a low deer density resulting in low sightings.  

I know yotes take some deer but find it hard to believe they are the entire cause of the decline.  I average seeing 1 or 2 yotes a year and that is being at the farm almost every weekend year round.  I have also hunted Texas and Illinios where I saw way more yotes in a day than I saw in a year here and the deer numbers were high.

Just my not so humble opinion


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## Throwback (Dec 8, 2009)

Milkman said:


> Throwback,
> Have options for controlling the coyote ever been considered by the DNR to your knowledge...... also, do you know how other states fund the bounty programs?



Probably but no good options are really availible due to the reasons I listed either above or in anther thread. 

Don't know how they fund it but it probably is either a one or two year start up fund type thing or something else is cut out. 

If you do some reasearch into what they local, state and federal gov'ts have done out west and STILL have not seriously dented the population for more than a short amount of time, where you can stand in one spot and see enough ground for a county or more here, you'll realize how practically  impossible it would be to eradicate them here. 

I'm with arrowflinger, I know they kill some deer, but there is a LOT of stuff here for them to eat year round so they don't just wake up and want to kill a deer when there is road kill everywhere, food scraps in trash, rats by the trillions, squirrels by the billions, housecats, dogs, etc. 

T


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## bastion25 (Dec 8, 2009)

Hey guys the limit is to high but most everyone i know wont even hardly shoot a doe unless we make them and the ones that do shoot wont take more than three any way but i do think the coyotes are affecting the population so when deer season ends its time to thin them out.


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## MFOSTER (Dec 8, 2009)

People have to realize that they are populations in every county of the state 
30 years ago we couldnt say that i grew hunting in jones county there is no where near the population now like it was then


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## Bucketmouths and Bucks (Dec 8, 2009)

I also believe the limit is way to high 2 bucks and 10 does not to mention WMA  hunts. I am originally from Michigan up there we use to have a great deer herd then the DNR started giving out doe permits at 4.00 each. Let's just say that the deer hunting up there in the UP and northern lower now suck thanks to the Brilliant ideas of the DNR. It is bad enough the deer have to deal with winters but also Wolves and Coyotes. Throw in poachers and now the deer just don't have a chance.There needs to be a lower limit on does. I personally have passed on 6 does at less than 30 yards and a small 7 point buck. I shot a buck and that is good enough. One other thing that we all hunters need to be aware of is if you are going to take a doe take it early in the season instead of during or after the rut. That doe you take during or after the rut just might have been bred by a dominant buck then another doe bred by a subordinate buck walks thus your deer genes just took a major hit.


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## Throwback (Dec 8, 2009)

Here's a suggestion. If you think the deer population in your area is too low, don't shoot any does. 

Why does the population have to be "like it was in the good old days" for it to be right? Who is to say then it was right and now  it is wrong? Part of the reason teh mandatory Antler restriction rule was implemented (at sportsmans request, IIRC) was to LOWER the population, thus making there more food availible to the ones that were her to have a healthy herd, thus more and bigger bucks and better genes, supposedly. 

Now that is might be happening, the population is suddenly too low.  

T


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## dawg2 (Dec 8, 2009)

bones-n-beards said:


> DONT OPEN FIREARMS SEASON UNTIL AFTER THANKSGIVING !!! ...Problem Solved



When did you shoot that buck in your avatar?


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## swamp wise (Dec 8, 2009)

I think that the more  and more people hunting these days putting more pressure on the deer is forcing them to become more nocturnal than ever and pushing them deeper into thicker parts of the woods. Deer are pretty smart animals, they can figure us out quicker than we can them. I read an article that said the best chance of seeing a deer is the first time you hunt your stand, and then the more you hunt that spot then usually you will see less deer in that spot due to human odor and noise contamination .Deer get a whole lot wiser the more we hunt them.


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## Arrow Flinger (Dec 8, 2009)

Throwback said:


> Here's a suggestion. If you think the deer population in your area is too low, don't shoot any does.



I haven't in Oglethope County in 10 years.


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## shakey gizzard (Dec 8, 2009)

swamp wise said:


> I think that the more  and more people hunting these days putting more pressure on the deer is forcing them to become more nocturnal than ever and pushing them deeper into thicker parts of the woods. Deer are pretty smart animals, they can figure us out quicker than we can them. I read an article that said the best chance of seeing a deer is the first time you hunt your stand, and then the more you hunt that spot then usually you will see less deer in that spot due to human odor and noise contamination .Deer get a whole lot wiser the more we hunt them.



I say we only hunt at night for a few years and they will be forced go dayturnal!


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## jpb31 (Dec 9, 2009)

what do you guys think the coyotes are getting the fawns ? because every doe i see has  1 or 2 fawns with them so i aint buying that one . do you think it could possibly be that there are more hunters hunting georgia than ever before. that means more deer killed i hear 20 or more shots on the weekends while sitting in the stand in the  morning i know that aint right and i hunt in a QDM county. the deer limit is way to high with no tagging system no one really knows how many deer are being killed in georgia


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## JohnK (Dec 9, 2009)

Nitro said:


> FWIW, 10 on 100 acres would translate into over 60 deer per square mile which by most accounts would put the property into the "extremely high" deer density range.



just what i was thinking, I remember when 10 was alot


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## Jeff Phillips (Dec 9, 2009)

Throwback said:


> Here's a suggestion. If you think the deer population in your area is too low, don't shoot any does.



I don't shoot any on my club. I may have a chance to kill 1 on a lightly hunted piece of suburban property a friend has right to hunt.

The problem we have is every club around us shoots every doe they see. I hunt in Taliaferro County where the population was once over 60 deer per square mile. The doe slayghter has us below 20!

The Piedmont has the highest hunter density of the entire state and can not support a 10 doe limit


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## 24point (Dec 9, 2009)

I think that the limit is WAY to much on does, and Coyotes are starting to be a problem too. What would a Armadillo have to do with the population loss?


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## jason t garrett (Dec 9, 2009)

*No deer here*

I read back to early NOV.  I have hunted almost every weekend. Jasper,Greene,Meriwether,Burke counties... I have seen 5 Deer in the stand all season.I have climed higher,sat in the stand longer,Hunted thickets, Hunted Fields,Tried to hunt with the sun at my back and the wind in my face,You get the point...I've never had issues seeing deer until this year.  Over the past 4 weeks I've hunted 12 hunts and 0 deer.  That is and average hunt of 3 hours. 36 hrs in the tree on good land and no deer...My reasoning is ...The deer are more noctrurnal,most people who can afford corn feed em and  thier property holds alot of deer,Coyotes, game hogs(poachers) the combo of smart deer,less deer and baited deer mean seeing 1 deer in the last 60 hours in a tree for me.


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## bamahawgs (Dec 9, 2009)

I am across the river from most of ya'll but i can tell you this .Alabama had a roundtable forum last year in all four corners of the state .We were drawn by our liscense number and ask to participate and i thought i would get to add my input as a hunter and i did. but what this turned out to be was basically a session for the insurance companies to pressure the state to keep the limits high.Now i know some people are gonna say that is a conspiracy but i am telling you this..everyone at that table (farmers,hunters,land owners,insurance companies ,and biologist state employed and private )said we need to throttle back on the doe harvest...And here is why as the older does die out the younger the the average age gets basically you lose the survivers of the herd then hunters start to kill youger does that have not or only reproduced once.so it is a double whammy now the does are limited and they do not have the knowledge to survive.The insurance rep busted into the conversation and started spewing all this data about car and deer collisions and how much money they are saving because the deer herd has been "drastically reduced " was his words and he went on to say basically he did not care if there was no deer in alabama at all...Alabama use to be like 5 in the country on deer accidents and now we have fallen to like 20 and georgia is on the same path....Now i will say there are farms or clubs that still have decent numbers but that is because of controlled harvest and management ...the days of going to the stand and seeing ten or fifteen deer everytime is over and here is what sucks about it. when you introduce a kid to fishing you take him bream fishing because they almost always bite...i have introduced several kids to hunting squirrles and rabbits and deer and they do not like to deer hunt anymore because they do not have the time or the money to hunt for one doe or a buck and with the rise of trail cameras i know i have seen a drop in the activity day or night....


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## Milkman (Dec 9, 2009)

bamahawgs said:


> I am across the river from most of ya'll but i can tell you this .Alabama had a roundtable forum last year in all four corners of the state .We were drawn by our liscense number and ask to participate and i thought i would get to add my input as a hunter and i did. but what this turned out to be was basically a session for the insurance companies to pressure the state to keep the limits high.Now i know some people are gonna say that is a conspiracy but i am telling you this..everyone at that table (farmers,hunters,land owners,insurance companies ,and biologist state employed and private )said we need to throttle back on the doe harvest...And here is why as the older does die out the younger the the average age gets basically you lose the survivers of the herd then hunters start to kill youger does that have not or only reproduced once.so it is a double whammy now the does are limited and they do not have the knowledge to survive.The insurance rep busted into the conversation and started spewing all this data about car and deer collisions and how much money they are saving because the deer herd has been "drastically reduced " was his words and he went on to say basically he did not care if there was no deer in alabama at all...Alabama use to be like 5 in the country on deer accidents and now we have fallen to like 20 and georgia is on the same path....Now i will say there are farms or clubs that still have decent numbers but that is because of controlled harvest and management ...the days of going to the stand and seeing ten or fifteen deer everytime is over and here is what sucks about it. when you introduce a kid to fishing you take him bream fishing because they almost always bite...i have introduced several kids to hunting squirrles and rabbits and deer and they do not like to deer hunt anymore because they do not have the time or the money to hunt for one doe or a buck and with the rise of trail cameras i know i have seen a drop in the activity day or night....



Has the state published anything about these forums you participated in yet?


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## CollinsCraft77 (Dec 9, 2009)

I really have enjoyed reading everyone's comments. I think it could be a combination of many factors but let me present to you a situation with thatI'm familiar with because it says a lot.

I have a family member with 5 acres that is surrounded by timber company land. his land is all hardwoods. He has hunted this land for 18 years, all the time he has lived on it. He hunts elsewhere as well but there have always been three to five deer killed here every year. Last year he invited his new friend from work and they killed fourteen deer of this small piece of property. His new friend killed nine and he his usual five. I told him he was an idiot and bet him that the next year, which of course now is the present year, would be terrible. He blew me off and said they'll always be deer here. Well, this year he killed one deer off of it and that was opening morning. A small five point that I passed on during muzzleloader season. Well, he has hunted there almost every weekend and two to three afternoons each week. He hasn't seen one deer since. I told him this would happen. He still refuses to believe me. You see, he's 62 and lives there. He's also my fatherinlaw. He is set in his "brown and down" ways. He just acts like their irreplaceable and it will always be as it was. 

Perhaps it's this way of thinking that has brought us here. I hunt in a couple of spots, Oglethorpe being one. One Saturday morning, I heard 46 shots. I'm not griping because I have seen plenty of deer this year but it makes you wonder I guess. I don't need to see deer to have a good hunt but my guess is many people do. It's the society we live in. Instant gratification. Now I know some hunt hard and haven't had the luck this year and I feel for you. But others want an easy time. I spent 9 1/2 hrs last Friday at my uncle's club in Jones County in a stand and was lucky to take a large doe (which was the purpose of the hunt). Sometimes you just need to be patient.

Sometimes just lucky.

Not scientific but with my fatherinlaw, it's firsthand evidence of being greedy and not smart.


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## Wilkman (Dec 9, 2009)

Deer numbers are down therefore deer sightings are low but I believe this monsoon weather has effected sightings and the high wind JMHO


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## dawg2 (Dec 9, 2009)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bones-n-beards  
DONT OPEN FIREARMS SEASON UNTIL AFTER THANKSGIVING !!! ...Problem Solved 





dawg2 said:


> When did you shoot that buck in your avatar?



BTT!!!!


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## Throwback (Dec 9, 2009)

jason t garrett said:


> I read back to early NOV.  I have hunted almost every weekend. Jasper,Greene,Meriwether,Burke counties... I have seen 5 Deer in the stand all season.I have climed higher,sat in the stand longer,Hunted thickets, Hunted Fields,Tried to hunt with the sun at my back and the wind in my face,You get the point...I've never had issues seeing deer until this year.  Over the past 4 weeks I've hunted 12 hunts and 0 deer.  That is and average hunt of 3 hours. 36 hrs in the tree on good land and no deer...My reasoning is ...The deer are more noctrurnal,most people who can afford corn feed em and  thier property holds alot of deer,Coyotes, game hogs(poachers) the combo of smart deer,less deer and baited deer mean seeing 1 deer in the last 60 hours in a tree for me.



Jason I have absolutly seen a LOT more deer at night than the day this year. More than I can personally remember in the past. It has been trending this way more and more every year, but this year it is quite a noticeable difference. I mean to the point of 1 to 5 in the daytime, and 20 to 30 or more at night. Of course there are nights I only see a few, but I have not yet seen more than a handful in the day. 

T


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## Throwback (Dec 9, 2009)

So who would be willing to stop deer hunting all the way around, just stop deer hunting totally, till the herd recovers? Say for 5 years. 


T


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## Hyper Sniper (Dec 9, 2009)

I have heard about everything there is in this thread. The bottom line is we kill over half the population of deer in this state every year. Yes to many deer on the lands carring capacity causes food devistation over brousing and so forth.

I have been managing our hunting lease for 10 years and we do very well with mature deer. We do not allow anything under 3.5 YO to be taken, and no more than 2 does.

The current high number of deer that is allowed in this state is simply caused by pressure from insurance companys on the DNR.
Just because you have the ability to take 12 deer a year, you would have to be a fool or just don't care about the animals in which you hunt if you filled this quota. 
Here is the bottom line you must govern yourself before any change can be made in this world. We have so much food on our property its not funny, but alot of it has not even been started on. I think yes pressure plays a big part in seeing less deer, but I have been seeing less deer for the past 2 seasons and we don't even touch are quota for deer per acre, but boy we have one border that is big bad hunters that last year had a 4 point, a button buck and 3 does shot by one guy, out of one stand, in one evening. The worst thing is you would have thought he just put 3 in the book. LOL

Ask yourself and others you hunt with, if you have 12 tags and you have the opportunity to fill all 12 how many are going to do it? In the late 80's and early 90's yes we had to many deer per square mile and it put a hurtin on land and ultimatly the deer, but since about 5 years ago after talkin with many people in the know we are simply over killing them.
I remember in the early days of managment: How could the early hunters kill only bucks and expect to have a balanced population? Well on the other hand how can you take mostly does and have any better situation "YOU CAN'T" I will get off the soap box now!!!
Too much pressure causes deer to go thick and turn nocturnal, but it is far easier to take does then it will ever be to find 4.5 Y/O bucks.


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## bamahawgs (Dec 9, 2009)

I am not sure about the minutes of those meetings .I know they had someone taking notes it was a very cool set up the way they did it . they ask questions then all of us had a chance to reply i.e. do you think the season is too long and why ? i enjoyed the experience but i know now the one with the most money wins the debate.I am not a trophy hunter by any means i love the woods and venision.i can tell ya'll this when i took up deer hunting we could go for a weekend and see 50-60 deer friday -sunday now for me to see that many it will take 2007-2010 and i hunt the same property it is family owned ..my first trail camera was a moultrie and i could take a roll of film in a weekend on a food plot or a trail now i can not fill up a card in a season Alabama has killed to many does every one knows it but nobody wants to eat crow and say okay enough is enough,,they brought the doe harvest in by stages the southern part first then they went north from here with birmingham being last..you want proof of what the doe harvest does for you look at alabamas stats the southern part of the state where we grow most of the peanuts very few trophy deer ...and this was the trophy part of the state..now the north is killing the big bucks and why the population is better does and bucks...people get on here and they say kill more does to reduce the buck to doe ratio..well let more does breed to have more bucks !!!! there is no way we are at an unhealthy number any more..ask  on of these experts how the state does a population estimate survey i have seen on in alabama and georgia and they were basically the same...they come out to your land and they feed the deer corn basically in an area then they clean the tracks upand the next time they are out they count the tracks in like a 12x12 square and they multiply it by 1.33 or something and that gives then an approximate number of deer per square mile or something like that ...that is a track count survey if you get some good ones they may put up a camera...and they make sit and watch a field if you got one...and by the way there is no way to know the deer harvest it is a guess to a phantom number.even the wma's numbers are close but not perfect...the best thing you can do is make it a competition try to out feed,out habitat ,out nutrient the guy next to you is basically what Auburn university told us to do on our farm...he who has the most money wins the prize of the deer


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## Jeff Phillips (Dec 10, 2009)

Who would support this option:

Add a $25 predator stamp to the hunting license. That $25 would go into a fund to pay a $50 bounty for every coyote tail brought to WRD. When the fund is empty it's empty until the next year, but I think it would be pretty difficult to trap and shoot 125,000 yotes per year.


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## DanBROWNING (Dec 10, 2009)

Jeff Phillips said:


> Who would support this option:
> 
> Add a $25 predator stamp to the hunting license. That $25 would go into a fund to pay a $50 bounty for every coyote tail brought to WRD. When the fund is empty it's empty until the next year, but I think it would be pretty difficult to trap and shoot 125,000 yotes per year.



sounds like the best solution ive heard on this thread yet. count me in.


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## DanBROWNING (Dec 10, 2009)

jeff when are you gonna meet with dnr cause we '' native hunters '' need to be there to voice our concerns, i wish that when we purchased our license we could vote onthe harvest numbers and other matters and that the votes and voices of the hunters would count rather than a bunch of hocus pocus statistical math that hasnt a clue on what is actually going on in our ga. woods.


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## antlermike1 (Dec 10, 2009)

Im new to the ocnf around rock eagle and realatively new to piedmont nwr. The woods are different from Jackson and barrow co where i usually hunt. Piedmont and ocnf are pines on the ridges with hardwood in the bottoms. I just thought i was hunting these areas wrong. Now im wondering if the population is not lower. Shot 2 does, 11 point 2 yrs on piedmont..not bad..but lot of shooting on ocnf. If you think of the shots and the deer psqm we should get the picture. I think the average hunter is hurting the population to some to degree, but i belive poachers are killing alot. Picture this.. The number of game wardens were the same as the number of police in every county (look at what wardens we have in comparison) and the sentences of the found guilty of hunting violations were as substantial to other civil offenses. General population of people are scared to drive dui, no insurance, no liscense etc. They feel it when they drive. Small ratio of hunters in comparison, but how would they feel if they knew as many wardens where watching them as there were police. Insurance companys do a lot of lobbying and with the average price of vehicles and health care today,, yes they are having an impact. Its all about the money. I just wish someone would help me learn how deer in the the ocnf and piedmont use the topography of the land so my daughter and i can get our first deer together


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## Jeff Phillips (Dec 10, 2009)

DanBROWNING said:


> jeff when are you gonna meet with dnr cause we '' native hunters '' need to be there to voice our concerns, i wish that when we purchased our license we could vote onthe harvest numbers and other matters and that the votes and voices of the hunters would count rather than a bunch of hocus pocus statistical math that hasnt a clue on what is actually going on in our ga. woods.



The key folks at WRD who could inact the changes needed lurk around on here and know what is going on.

I quit going to the public input meetings a few years ago. They listened to us and went ahead with their plan anyway. 

If I felt that we could rally a crowd to support change I would start going again. 

This is the kind of activity the GONetwork should have been involved in, but it lost it's way.


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## antlermike1 (Dec 10, 2009)

Do we hunt the pines with the thick undergrowth or the edges of the oak bottoms and the pines?


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## dawg2 (Dec 10, 2009)

Throwback said:


> So who would be willing to stop deer hunting all the way around, just stop deer hunting totally, till the herd recovers? Say for 5 years.
> 
> 
> T



NO!!!  All that will happen is there will be more night-time deer, the daytime herd will continue to dwindle


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## dawg2 (Dec 10, 2009)

antlermike1 said:


> Do we hunt the pines with the thick undergrowth or the edges of the oak bottoms and the pines?



I hunt thick stuff a lot.  You can't see very far but that is where the deer are.


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## satchmo (Dec 10, 2009)

Hyper Sniper said:


> The current high number of deer that is allowed in this state is simply caused by pressure from insurance companys on the DNR.
> 
> 
> I would love to see some kind of proof that the insurance companys have any say in the deer harvest. According to the DNR they don't. There is a management plan and the state is sticking to it. It is working.
> I am pretty happy about the deer management plan. We are not having to wade through twenty does to get to a buck anymore. And if you'll look at the truck buck contest and the record books we are doing great on growing healthy deer, and bigger bucks every year.


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## Nicodemus (Dec 10, 2009)

satchmo said:


> Hyper Sniper said:
> 
> 
> > The current high number of deer that is allowed in this state is simply caused by pressure from insurance companys on the DNR.
> ...


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## DanBROWNING (Dec 10, 2009)

Nicodemus said:


> satchmo said:
> 
> 
> > I`m in full agreement with you, Satch. We`re in the good ol days of deer huntin`. A whole lot better than when we had no season at all.
> ...


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## Nicodemus (Dec 10, 2009)

DanBROWNING;

i will agree with you fellers when you say the bucks have gotten bigger and better said:
			
		

> For your information, I haven`t been a member of a huntin` club in close to 15 years now. I have a private place or two that I hunt, but I also do a tremendous amount of huntin` on WMAs. Last time I checked, WMAs were about as public as it gets. And on the ones I hunt, the huntin` is good, if you know where, and how, to hunt. High fence? That`s a joke...


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## jbird1 (Dec 10, 2009)

They are like rabbits where we hunt...no food plots, just big woods.  If your not seeing the #'s you want, find a new spot.  I'm with Nic, we are in the "Golden" years right now.


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## DanBROWNING (Dec 10, 2009)

well boys enjoy it while it lasts cause it wont.


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## Nicodemus (Dec 10, 2009)

Trust me, I will.


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## DanBROWNING (Dec 10, 2009)

that kinda thinkin is why the buffalos got whiped out out west, man what a world we would have if people thought more of others than they did of there own selves. im not picken on you alone mr. nicodemus,just the whole. i do have one question for you,how many deer is enough?


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## Nicodemus (Dec 10, 2009)

DanBROWNING said:


> that kinda thinkin is why the buffalos got whiped out out west, man what a world we would have if people thought more of others than they did of there own selves. im not picken on you alone mr. nicodemus,just the whole. i do have one question for you,how many deer is enough?





I know your not.   And I`m not tryin` to argumentive either, but we got to set the buffalo issue straight first. That kind of thinkin` had nothin` to do with the demise of the buffalo. You can thank General William Tecumseh Sherman for their almost extinction. For one reason. To wipe out the walkin` grocery store of the Plains Indians. That way, they could be starved into givin` up, and forced onto reservations. 

As for how many, 12 to 14 a year. When you figure that in my family, we could legally kill 36 between the three of us, that ain`t so bad. And for reasons I don`t really feel like gettin` into, I need venison, more than I do store bought meat. As for not thinkin` about others, you can`t make that call, unless you know me.


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## bestbucks (Dec 10, 2009)

ForestNinja said:


> Well this one is easy. You got a 10 doe limit. It takes does to make more deer. Kill all the does and you soon have no deer. That was EASY


Even the game wardens I have talked to say 10 does are too many. If this is true, which I certainly believe it is, why haven't they stepped up and voiced their opinions? Their out there every day and can certainly see what is going on.


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## ambush80 (Dec 10, 2009)

DanBROWNING said:


> that kinda thinkin is why the buffalos got whiped out out west, man what a world we would have if people thought more of others than they did of there own selves. im not picken on you alone mr. nicodemus,just the whole. i do have one question for you,how many deer is enough?



Last I saw, DNR said 900,000 deer is the optimum number for GA.  Five years ago we were at 1.1 Million.  This from DNR:

_[White-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus) once were nearly eliminated in the state of Georgia, but through diligent wildlife management efforts deer were successfully restored throughout the state. In fact, the current deer population exceeds 1.2 million.]_

I killed and saw more deer when I hunted 3 days a week and walked further from the truck; back in college.

I've hunted 10 days this year, bow and gun combined.  I've seen 6 deer and killed 1; all on WMA's.    I'm pretty happy with the deer numbers.

From Ga Sportsman:

_[Charlie Killmaster is a Wildlife Resources Division wildlife biologist tasked with keeping up with the status of deer statewide. "The number of deer hunters and the deer harvest are starting to stabilize after decreasing over the last few years," he said. "The deer population peaked statewide in the mid-to-late 1990s at approximately 1.4 million, higher than any point in history. As the number of deer peaked, so did the number of deer hunters. An estimated 510,000 hunters were taking to the woods during the peak. As the deer population has been brought down to a more reasonable level, hunter numbers responded accordingly as the more casual deer hunters dropped out.]_


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## DanBROWNING (Dec 10, 2009)

Nicodemus said:


> I know your not.   And I`m not tryin` to argumentive either, but we got to set the buffalo issue straight first. That kind of thinkin` had nothin` to do with the demise of the buffalo. You can thank General William Tecumseh Sherman for their almost extinction. For one reason. To wipe out the walkin` grocery store of the Plains Indians. That way, they could be starved into givin` up, and forced onto reservations.
> 
> As for how many, 12 to 14 a year. When you figure that in my family, we could legally kill 36 between the three of us, that ain`t so bad. And for reasons I don`t really feel like gettin` into, I need venison, more than I do store bought meat. As for not thinkin` about others, you can`t make that call, unless you know me.



true i dont know you but i can tell you are a good man from your various post on here and your willingness to help others. while you are correct on what and who started the slaughter of the buffalo it still boils down to greed, when the govt put a bounty on buffalo all the hunters saw were dollar$ greed was allways and will forever remain the true cause of the american indians down fall.


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## DanBROWNING (Dec 10, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> Last I saw, DNR said 900,000 deer is the optimum number for GA.  Five years ago we were at 1.1 Million.  This from DNR:
> 
> _[White-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus) once were nearly eliminated in the state of Georgia, but through diligent wildlife management efforts deer were successfully restored throughout the state. In fact, the current deer population exceeds 1.2 million.]_
> 
> ...



iam glad for you that you are happy. that being said i killed 7 deer last year and for the life of me i cant recall telling charlie killmaster a thing about any of those deer,in fact i cant recall if my 5 brothers told him about their harvest either? has any body on here called mr.killmaster to report their harvest?anybody? may be hes gettin his info from the harvest record we send in at the end of the season?,oh yeah, we dont do that any more do we? might as well shake the old magic 8 ball.


----------



## Milkman (Dec 10, 2009)

Milkman said:


> WOW !!!!
> 
> Im glad I woke this old thread up......... Good discussion and ideas going here !!!!
> 
> ...





Throwback said:


> Milkman,
> 
> It would take ALL landowners allowing people to hunt to kill coyotes (good luck with that) , a bounty high enough to allow people to hunt full time (probably several hundred dollars a coyote)and make a living at it and hunters, no, make that *killers *that wanted to kill themselves out of a job.
> 
> ...





Milkman said:


> Throwback,
> Have options for controlling the coyote ever been considered by the DNR to your knowledge...... also, do you know how other states fund the bounty programs?





Jeff Phillips said:


> Who would support this option:
> 
> Add a $25 predator stamp to the hunting license. That $25 would go into a fund to pay a $50 bounty for every coyote tail brought to WRD. When the fund is empty it's empty until the next year, but I think it would be pretty difficult to trap and shoot 125,000 yotes per year.



Maybe we ought to start another thread with this line of discussion, but I like the concept of getting a program going to lower the number of coyotes even if we cant erradicate them. I know yotes arent our only problem but I think everyone agrees we sure dont need them or like them.
Jeff I think if DNR could figure some way to fund and facilitate the bounty program it would be great. However as with any program it will take $$$$$. 
 IMO if a bounty were offered it would be better if it were more substantial, that would encorage the land owner to shoot them or allow someone to shoot them and share the money. 

With say 350,000 license sales at a bounty funding fee of say $10 that would generate $3.5 million annually. If the bounty were say $250 that would allow bounty payments for 10,000 dead yotes annually and leave $1 million for admin costs.........  Fees and bounty amounts could be tweaked to assure continued self support.

Is this anywhere close to feasible???


----------



## ambush80 (Dec 10, 2009)

DanBROWNING said:


> iam glad for you that you are happy. that being said i killed 7 deer last year and for the life of me i cant recall telling charlie killmaster a thing about any of those deer,in fact i cant recall if my 5 brothers told him about their harvest either? has any body on here called mr.killmaster to report their harvest?anybody? may be hes gettin his info from the harvest record we send in at the end of the season?,oh yeah, we dont do that any more do we? might as well shake the old magic 8 ball.




Sounds like you're doing OK killing deer too.  So what was your gripe again?

Here is one method of calculating herd numbers.  It's geared towards 9th graders, so it shouldn't be too hard to understand. 

http://sftrc.cas.psu.edu/LessonPlans/Wildlife/DeerPopulation.html

There's more than 1 way to gather data, but the Sex, Age, Kill information provided by hunters is invaluable.


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## DanBROWNING (Dec 10, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> Sounds like you're doing OK killing deer too.  So what was your gripe again?
> 
> Here is one method of calculating herd numbers.  It's geared towards 9th graders, so it shouldn't be too hard to understand.
> 
> ...



i never said that i had a problem killing deer,its just that every year since the idiotic inception of this 12 deer limit, and it stands to reason,i and if you will take time to read this post,and quite a few more on here are seeing less and less deer. THE INFORMATION GATHERED BY HUNTERS IS INVALUABLE. P.S. if my 9th grade grammer offends you ,PM me and we will discuss further.


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## ambush80 (Dec 10, 2009)

DanBROWNING said:


> i never said that i had a problem killing deer,its just that every year since the idiotic inception of this 12 deer limit, and it stands to reason,i and if you will take time to read this post,and quite a few more on here are seeing less and less deer. THE INFORMATION GATHERED BY HUNTERS IS INVALUABLE. P.S. if my 9th grade grammer offends you ,PM me and we will discuss further.



Do you have any data, or is your evidence strictly anecdotal.  I provided two sources that show that the herd is higher than the recommended carrying capacity.  If you have any other sources to the contrary, please provide links.  Not seeing high numbers of deer in a particular area may not indicate low numbers statewide.


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## Jeff Phillips (Dec 10, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> Not seeing high numbers of deer in a particular area may not indicate low numbers statewide.



Seeing plenty of deer in a particular area does not indicate high numbers statewide either

The state is using 26 deer per forested square mile for their estimated herd. I would like to see some data where they have gone out into the woods in each region to verify their numbers.

Based on the latest scientific studies, sited in this thread, yotes are killing more fawns than previously thought. Have the recruitment calulations been adjusted for the new data?


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## dawg2 (Dec 10, 2009)

DanBROWNING said:


> i will agree with you fellers when you say the bucks have gotten bigger and better,no doubt but, if you fellers will get out of yalls honey holes,big fenced in clubs with food plots on every open piece of land and go and hunt some real public land you want have to hunt for long to realize that the general,overall,over harvest of does has really taken its toll on the whole state. 5 deers plenty for any one and if over harvest of does continues well it very well might end up being NO SEASON AT ALL,well atleast no season for those of us who actually hunt public land.


I bought my own land, so I primarily hunt and kill my deer there.  Never belonged to a high fence hunt club.


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## dawg2 (Dec 10, 2009)

Jeff Phillips said:


> Who would support this option:
> 
> Add a $25 predator stamp to the hunting license. That $25 would go into a fund to pay a $50 bounty for every coyote tail brought to WRD. When the fund is empty it's empty until the next year, but I think it would be pretty difficult to trap and shoot 125,000 yotes per year.



That looks good on paper.  But if you honestly believe the money will go for what it is intended you will be disappointed.  They don't even send all of the money for hunting licenses back to hunting areas/WMA's etc.  It all goes in one big pool and goes where our elected officials have their vested interests.


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## Ambull (Dec 10, 2009)

I have not had a chance to read all the posts on this thread just a handful, I made this post on another thread just a few minutes ago, I figured I would repost it here as it is applicable to this thread.

I have hunted at least 50 days this season--likely more, I have 4 areas that I hunt all smaller sized parcels 2 are in urban settings near shopping centers.. I also travel all over northeast Georgia everyday all day. while in the woods I can safely say I have seen close to 75 deer this season. While traveling in car...that number is way higher. I think the lack of sightings from folks are not from low population levels, unless the land you hunt is poorly managed but even then I doubt it would have that much of an affect on numbers..and it is a localized issue not state wide.

What will have an effect on sightings is weather and hunting, predator, or people pressure....

I had a 4 week period, basically all of November, where I saw only 17 deer and did not have a shot at any of them because of range or property lines. I hunted the hardest in November coming close to 20+ days with a couple all day adventures in the stand, many of which I saw nothing!. November sucked for me!
I attribute most of this to weather patterns, it was warm most of November...but you better believe 3 weeks of "ole stinkies" chasing them all over the county with boom sticks, probably made them a bit skittish...you think?
I have layed down 7 does so far (I give much of it away).
Of the times I was in a stand I have only seen 10 or so bucks....have yet to find an appropriate canidate to put a rage in the cage or give a hot lead injection to, but I still have 21 days left or so!
So my advice to folks would be quit being an arm chair biologist (that is the proper spelling by the way) get in the woods more, if you can, and try different tactics.....also you may want to consider firing your "land manager" and shake that up a bit...there are plenty of deer in Georgia. 
Sometimes hunting is just being in the right place at the right time too!

I will also add aside from one of my areas which is Very populated my sightings in the non-urban vs. the urban seem to be about the same. This is only anecdotal, but since it seems to be the only evidence that is sufficient to satisfy so many of you, I figured I would throw it out there as well.

JMO
P


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## DanBROWNING (Dec 10, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> Do you have any data, or is your evidence strictly anecdotal.  I provided two sources that show that the herd is higher than the recommended carrying capacity.  If you have any other sources to the contrary, please provide links.  Not seeing high numbers of deer in a particular area may not indicate low numbers statewide.



my data comes from hunting wmas and private land and other hunters,while  your data comes from outdated dnr reports that some desk jockeys cooked up inbetween coffee breaks. have they recalculated anything lately based on the latest ACTUAL harvest or  are their numbers just theory, equations and funny math? dont believe every thing your fed, not from me and definetly not the govt, go see for yourself.


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## C.Killmaster (Dec 10, 2009)

Jeff Phillips said:


> Based on the latest scientific studies, sited in this thread, yotes are killing more fawns than previously thought. Have the recruitment calulations been adjusted for the new data?



Recruitment rates aren't adjusted, it's an observed rate.  If predation on fawns increases, recruitment rates decline by fewer fawns per doe observed in the harvest.  Yes, recruitment rates are down from 15 years ago.


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## jpb31 (Dec 10, 2009)

Nicodemus said:


> Trust me, I will.



great additude live for 2day the heck with 2morrow


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## Nicodemus (Dec 10, 2009)

jpb31 said:


> great additude live for 2day the heck with 2morrow





Is that the only post I made in this thread that you read, or did you read the rest?  I`ve said my piece in here and that`s enough.


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## dawg2 (Dec 10, 2009)

jpb31 said:


> great additude live for 2day the heck with 2morrow


you don't have a clue.


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## jpb31 (Dec 10, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> you don't have a clue.



after 27 years of wildlife reseach and studies on whitetail deer in the state of georgia i think i do have a clue. the over all deer population is down and will be getting alot lower . and thats all i have to say


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## Throwback (Dec 10, 2009)

DanBROWNING said:


> that kinda thinkin is why the buffalos got whiped out out west, man what a world we would have if people thought more of others than they did of there own selves. im not picken on you alone mr. nicodemus,just the whole. i do have one question for you,how many deer is enough?





No the buffalo were killed off beause of unregulated commercial hunting, not regulated sport hunting. 

T


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## Throwback (Dec 10, 2009)

Gatorb said:


> ive had nearly 100 deer sightings in georgia this season so far in north east georgia...



Well you're obviously doing something wrong....


T


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## Nicodemus (Dec 10, 2009)

I`ve been studyin` deer in the southwest corner of my home state a lot longer than 27 years, so I have a little bit of a clue. And not on just one tract of land, but various tracts. Coverin` a large segment of Sowega. But, this ain`t no hog fattenin` contest, so you have fun with it.


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## Hyper Sniper (Dec 11, 2009)

Gatorb said:


> i know it... these huge limits are killin' my lowly population in banks county....its pretty simple if'n you ask me...shoot what your property can handle.........y'all know your herds (or at least you should) dont shoot too many regardless of what the law says you can shoot.



This is sound advise! The deer counts are far different in certain county's. 
I will tell you this: Georgia has always been at the forfront of trying to manage there heard. I can remember in the early 80's doing some deer counts at night with some of the local dnr boys in Fl and we would see 50 does and 2 bucks feeding under oaks, and that stuck with me just how badly the balance was in Florida vs Georgia.

In the 70's we started getting doe weekends like 3 days around thanksgiving and such. Then we started getting 2 does anytime, then 3 and so on. I have been involved with this a long time, and here is the thing. Ga and Tx have been 2 of the best states in the country for sound deer management, and after all these years of taking does and then more doe's, and now up to 10 doe's. 

Now think about this after all these years of taking more and more doe's each year do you really believe it is still a  5 to1 buck to doe ratio? not in my area, we are about 2 to 1 and my point is the state sets the regs state wide and then do the best they can. It was said that the deer are bigger and better now than ever, and I agree but do you think it is all because we shoot more doe's than ever NO WAY! if that was the case then we would not be seeing so many of the giants each year coming out of the Atlanta urban area's

These giants are coming from Dekalb and North Fulton, and Gwinnett county's, these areas are barely hunted, and very hard to get access too as well, my point is there is very few doe's taken in these countys, and yet all these big bucks. The rules and regs are usually made in the most populated areas were people of influence are the most affected,  The insurance business is huge and the payouts every year have been huge resulting from deer collisions, so yes this has had influince in the current high number of deer we are givin.

It is hard for me to stay on track because there is so much that needs to be covered. In the state right now most of the land is leased, outside of state WMA's  and in many lease's we would all feel good with 100 acres per hunter right!
Well this is just an example, we  have 1200 acres so that is roughly 2 square miles and say we have 30 deer per mile so we have 60 local deer. Now we have 12 hunters on this lease and we have 12 tags a piece that is 144 deer we can leagally take. Believe me there are leases with as many as 20 hunters on those same acres. This is a large part of how things are going in many areas, and yes there are huge amounts of land in the national forests and WMA's and in the future with the current high lease costs I believe you will have much more company in these area's as well.

I am just trying to put this in perspective! I do not care if you shoot all 12 of your tags,this is the law and it is your choice to do so. What I am attempting to do is answer this thread with the truth and some facts. 

I  don't want to make this about hunting ability,and how many Billy Buck Buster saw cause he's the baddest hunter in all the land. The pure facts are after all the good we have done in this state about getting to wear we have gotten, if we keep taking more and more deer each year we will have pockets of great deer that only a few will have access too, and there will be more and more hunters dropping the sport and you get the point.


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## BJ Farr (Dec 11, 2009)

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1.Lower bag limit of does to 3
2.Rifle Season reduced down to only 3 weeks which should be the week of Thanksgiving and the 2 weeks after.
3.For now just 1 buck with at least 4 on one side.
4.Bow season is way to early needs to be opened in mid oct.


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## nickel back (Dec 11, 2009)




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## DanBROWNING (Dec 11, 2009)

well, i believe im done with this thread too, no matter what the outcome, every one aint gonna be happy. its been fun and im gonna go hunt for awhile, good luck to all and kill a biggun.


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## DEERFU (Dec 11, 2009)

There were plenty of people killing more than 10 to 12 deer per year before the limit was high. That wouldn't change if it were moved back to 5 or 3. The limit can be a useful tool if apllied correctly and on an individual basis. Most of the hunting clubs that I've been on had way more "pressure" than public land and that my friend will kill your deer sightings as fast as over harvest will.


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## DanBROWNING (Dec 11, 2009)

Gatorb said:


> i know it... these huge limits are killin' my lowly population in banks county....its pretty simple if'n you ask me...shoot what your property can handle.........y'all know your herds (or at least you should) dont shoot too many regardless of what the law says you can shoot.



yall know your herds? thats hard to do on public land. by the way thats a nice corn patch your in,all i can say is good luck.


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## DanBROWNING (Dec 11, 2009)

DEERFU39 said:


> There were plenty of people killing more than 10 to 12 deer per year before the limit was high. That wouldn't change if it were moved back to 5 or 3. The limit can be a useful tool if apllied correctly and on an individual basis. Most of the hunting clubs that I've been on had way more "pressure" than public land and that my friend will kill your deer sightings as fast as over harvest will.



well yeah your right, but at least those people back then knew what they were,POACHERS,im outta here.


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## droptine06 (Dec 11, 2009)

I didn't really want to get involved in this, but can't help it.
The doe harvest number was raised due to, overpopulation-meaning more deer than the land can support, a push from hunters to be able to better manage THEIR land and property and harvest deer as they see fit and I'm sure Insurance Co's had a little to do with it. If you lease and or own private property, then it is YOUR responsibility to know the limits of the number of deer you or your club can harvest to maintain a healthy herd. As for Public land, that is the responsibility of the DNR to decide. They should have a more strict check in system and base harvest numbers year to year off of a certain goal in my opinion. It sucks, but that's somethig you have to accept if you choose to hunt there.

If you harvest more does you accomplish what? Less deer per square mile. This increases the amount of quality cover/habitat as well as the amount of food sources available for the remaining herd. Therefore directly increasing the health of your does, their fawns and of course body and antler size of  bucks. If all you want to see is 15 deer a day, than do not shoot any for 3 years other than a mature buck or two and I promise your herd will return to the numbers close to what you are looking for.

I personally do not see a problem with the current limits for several reasons. I would much rather see 5 healthy deer per 20hrs(or whatever number you want to come up with) hunted where 2 of which could be 2.5 to 4.5 year old bucks and a doe and two healthy fawns than 15 malnutritioned does and fawns and an occasionsal buck. Second, I do not need the "government" telling me anymore what I can or cannot do than they already do. I'm a big boy and can decide for myself. Third, it's common sense! It's like a 65MPH speed limit. Just cuase it says 65 doesn't mean you have to drive that fast. Go at the pace you see fit, go over and you will be fined.


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## Jeff Phillips (Dec 11, 2009)

C.Killmaster said:


> Recruitment rates aren't adjusted, it's an observed rate.  If predation on fawns increases, recruitment rates decline by fewer fawns per doe observed in the harvest.  Yes, recruitment rates are down from 15 years ago.



You kinda danced around it, but didn't answer the question

*Has the recruitment number in the population calculation been adjusted to account for loss to predators?*

15 years ago we were seeing 1 or 2 fawns with each mature doe. So far this year on the same property we have seen 2 fawns total. 75% of the does I have seen have no fawns.

*With a recruitment rate of .25 and does making up 60%+ of the harvest, how quickly will the population drop?*

Please answer those 2 questions for us.


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## Arrow Flinger (Dec 11, 2009)

droptine06 said:


> If all you want to see is 15 deer a day, than do not shoot any for 3 years other than a mature buck or two and I promise your herd will return to the numbers close to what you are looking for.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## droptine06 (Dec 11, 2009)

Arrow Flinger said:


> droptine06 said:
> 
> 
> > If all you want to see is 15 deer a day, than do not shoot any for 3 years other than a mature buck or two and I promise your herd will return to the numbers close to what you are looking for.
> ...


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## 260Rem (Dec 11, 2009)

*Blame it on the Coyotes*



dgr416 said:


> There are several reasons we are seeing less deer.The first is the increased limit has reduced the population  and the pressure makes them more nocturnal and they find safe havens where no one hunts.There are more deer around Cummings where I live than ion Morgan county where my farm is or it seems.The deer here around Cumming have very little pressure and alot of people that have land dont let anyone hunt.The land in Morgan county is hunted tirelessly and the does dot hang around.I have only sdeen bucks on my land this year no does.I have only seen 3 bucks total.I use to see 300-500 deer a year on this same land.I put out trail cams in several spots and got very few deer pictures.I also looked at crossings and noticed alot fewer tracks.Last week I noticed mushrooms uneaten in large numbers.This is a big sign of less or no deer in the area.we have very few or no acorns this year.With no food besides the rye grass I planted which has not had that much rain the deer look for easy food and safe havens on property thats not hunted .I swear its like going back to the low populaions of 1968 the first year I hunted in Georgia.With no does to reproduce there are no deer to eat the acorns when they finally make.Friends who hunted my land in the early 80s and early 90s can tell you how many deer there use to be.Now sitting in a tree for two months with 5-7 deer a year is no fun.I am a diehard hunter but it gets old fast.I saw the same thing on Pedimont National Wildlife Refudge last and this year.There are a few areas that are over populated usually ones that cant be hunted.The F&G is estimating the 1.2 million deer in Georgia.Yes as they become more nocturnal more get hit by cars at night.But we are seeing was less deer than we use to.I have hunted Georgia for deer 40 years and my dad hunted it about 10 years before I did.Our woods are pretty empty these days.If I only see three does a year I usually let them walk .The last couple of years I have seen none.I know thats its time to thin our trees to produce undergrowth but you need a base population of does to build it.There are way less deer now than there were on our farm.Yes there are a few big bucks but waiting all season to see one deer gets old after a while.I think the doe limit needs to go back to two and the doe days reduced to 5 at the most so the good old days will come back.



I hunt in Elbert County and have since 1979.  Typically I used to see from 0-10 deer when I would hunt and I am very selective.  I don't pop everything that comes around.  I plant several food plots with a variety of seed every year so that all the wildlife have a food source through the winter.  I have not shot a doe in over three years.  The last two years I have witnessed a drastic decrease in the overall deer population.  At the same time I have seen a drastic increase in the Coyote population.  I firmly believe that the coyote population is killing the fawns at an alarming rate.  Bobcats are probably contributing to this also.  I have only seen about 10 deer total for the entire season and I have been in the woods at least 20 times.  I typically stay in the woods 2-3 hours minimum.  In case anyone is considering poison for them, beware.  It is a Felony to put out poison.


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## jpb31 (Dec 11, 2009)

just wondering how many people here that spend alot of times in the woods 5 0r 6 hours a day come accross  deer killed by coyotes. if there is that many deer being killed we should be finding there bones and carcases all over the woods. come on think about it the coyotes only kill the very weak


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## Jeff Phillips (Dec 11, 2009)

jpb31 said:


> just wondering how many people here that spend alot of times in the woods 5 0r 6 hours a day come accross  deer killed by coyotes. if there is that many deer being killed we should be finding there bones and carcases all over the woods. come on think about it the coyotes only kill the very weak



Your right, they kill the very weak.

The study in SC showed that 75% of fawns were eaten by coyotes during their first 6 months.

When few fawns survive, you have few adults!


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## RiverDan (Dec 11, 2009)

Amen brother on people needing a job if they "need" to kill five deer.


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## jpb31 (Dec 11, 2009)

fawns are born with very little or no scent.  on 3 separate tracts of land that we watch with 22 trail cameras out of 60 adult does this year we only saw 3 does with out fawns the remaing does all had 1 0r 2 yearling with them and we noticed that the 3 does with out got bread back later in the year and had spoted faws with them right be for hunting season came  in and we have packs of coyotes on these tracts of land. do the math


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## Jeff Phillips (Dec 11, 2009)

jpb31 said:


> do the math



The math from the Professional Wildlife Biologist who conducted the study published by the QDMA was that yotes are eating 75% of the fawns. 

Glad your recruitment is above the state and national averages, congrats!


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## jpb31 (Dec 11, 2009)

Jeff Phillips said:


> The math from the Professional Wildlife Biologist who conducted the study published by the QDMA was that yotes are eating 75% of the fawns.
> 
> Glad your recruitment is above the state and national averages, congrats!


mmm maybe you could send us that link i cant seem to find that i would love to read it


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## BamaBart (Dec 11, 2009)

Coyotes!!!!!!


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## TwistedCedar (Dec 11, 2009)

hm. Being a taxidermist i record a lot of info and i have to say that the numbers seem pretty good this year. seems like a lot of the bigger bucks are coming from north GA than south GA. I personally have killed 10 does and i dont hunt that hard. The fawn crop seemed to be good as well. saw lots of fawns during the summer and saw lots of yearlings while hunting. One of the local hunting clubs where i get a bit of work from has had a good year as well, i think they are up to 20 deer killed this year. I dont think just because a few hunters arent seeing as many deer means that everyone isnt seeing them. Looks like another great hunting year to me.


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## C.Killmaster (Dec 11, 2009)

Jeff Phillips said:


> You kinda danced around it, but didn't answer the question
> 
> *Has the recruitment number in the population calculation been adjusted to account for loss to predators?*
> 
> ...



You don't seem to understand.  The harvest recruitment rate is the number of fawns per doe observed in the harvest, period.  Adjusting that number manually would introduce artificial bias.  Let me explain this to you.  If coyotes eat 50% of the fawns and harvest numbers show that 1 fawn is killed for every doe killed, then the recruitment rate is 50%.  The calculation cannot be adjusted or it will be wrong.  All the number represents is fawns/does.  It really is that simple.  

For your next question, it depends on what the total doe harvest is, not just the percent does in the total harvest.  Just because the total harvest has more than 50% does doesn't mean it's declining.  That being said, based on our current harvest rate (roughly 30% of the total population) if recruitment rates were 25%, which they are not, the population would drop by 40% per year.  

The information from the study at the Savannah River Site that you refer to was definately some great research.  However, that's not likely what is going on throughout the entire state.  I encourage you to contact Dr. John Kilgo who conducted that project and ask him if thinks those numbers are consistent with the whole state of Georgia.  I've consulted him and already know his thoughts.  To start to get a better idea of what is going on in the piedmont of Georgia, we recently began a similar study.  You should see a press release soon discussing the particulars of the project.

I don't appreciate you screaming at me through your use of red text.


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## Jeff Phillips (Dec 11, 2009)

C.Killmaster said:


> I don't appreciate you screaming at me through your use of red text.



Thanks for the answer.

I'm not screaming, didn't you see the smiley

The big red letters were to focus on the questions


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## C.Killmaster (Dec 12, 2009)

Jeff Phillips said:


> Thanks for the answer.
> 
> I'm not screaming, didn't you see the smiley
> 
> The big red letters were to focus on the questions



No problem, I must have overlooked the smiley.  I'll be glad to discuss these points with you via phone or in person if you'd like.  I can assure you that all the math is completely legitimate and the methods are consistent with all other southeastern agencies.  I can also assure you that politics have nothing to do with these estimates.  They are published just as they leave my office and I have yet to ever receive a phone call from a politician.  Shoot me a PM and I'll give you my contact info.


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## Throwback (Dec 12, 2009)

I'm sorry but I don't buy the "75% of fawns are killed by coyotes"


T


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## WSB (Dec 12, 2009)

TwistedCedar said:


> hm. Being a taxidermist i record a lot of info and i have to say that the numbers seem pretty good this year. seems like a lot of the bigger bucks are coming from north GA than south GA. I personally have killed 10 does and i dont hunt that hard. The fawn crop seemed to be good as well. saw lots of fawns during the summer and saw lots of yearlings while hunting. One of the local hunting clubs where i get a bit of work from has had a good year as well, i think they are up to 20 deer killed this year. I dont think just because a few hunters arent seeing as many deer means that everyone isnt seeing them. Looks like another great hunting year to me.



And there it is!


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## Throwback (Dec 12, 2009)

WSB said:


> And there it is!






STOP HIM FOR THE CHILLUNS! 

T


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## GA DAWG (Dec 12, 2009)

WSB said:


> And there it is!


Yep..It aint the coyotes..It aint the mountain lions and black panthers..Its the hunters! I've probably got more yotes than anywhere in the state on land I hunt..I kill a few a year but I probably have as many deer as most places in the state also..WHY? Cause I dont shoot every doe that sticks its head out  We have a limit on em in my clubs also..It makes all the difference in the world..What went wrong is folks wanting to kill the big ol bucks..They bought into the killing of all does to make your bucks move better..Thats a joke and I still hear folks say it today..Now just guess where your bucks are gonna be when you get all your does killed..They are going to be on my land where the does are plentiful..I got a wall full of them to prove it


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## shea900 (Dec 12, 2009)

Deer been readin' huntin' mags.....


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## DanBROWNING (Dec 12, 2009)

C.Killmaster said:


> You don't seem to understand.  The harvest recruitment rate is the number of fawns per doe observed in the harvest, period.  Adjusting that number manually would introduce artificial bias.  Let me explain this to you.  If coyotes eat 50% of the fawns and harvest numbers show that 1 fawn is killed for every doe killed, then the recruitment rate is 50%.  The calculation cannot be adjusted or it will be wrong.  All the number represents is fawns/does.  It really is that simple.
> 
> For your next question, it depends on what the total doe harvest is, not just the percent does in the total harvest.  Just because the total harvest has more than 50% does doesn't mean it's declining.  That being said, based on our current harvest rate (roughly 30% of the total population) if recruitment rates were 25%, which they are not, the population would drop by 40% per year.
> 
> ...



 a few quick questions sir, how and from where do you get your harvest numbers? are your numbers based on the harvest for south, central,or north ga.? does any one actually go out into the woods any more? when will we be able to see all the harvest numbers from the wmas,sign in and qouta hunts. thanks


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## droptine06 (Dec 12, 2009)

GA DAWG said:


> Yep..It aint the coyotes..It aint the mountain lions and black panthers..Its the hunters! I've probably got more yotes than anywhere in the state on land I hunt..I kill a few a year but I probably have as many deer as most places in the state also..WHY? Cause I dont shoot every doe that sticks its head out  We have a limit on em in my clubs also..It makes all the difference in the world..What went wrong is folks wanting to kill the big ol bucks..They bought into the killing of all does to make your bucks move better..Thats a joke and I still hear folks say it today..Now just guess where your bucks are gonna be when you get all your does killed..They are going to be on my land where the does are plentiful..I got a wall full of them to prove it



I have to disagree with a couple of your statements. I and the Co-op our club is a part of has seen a significant increase in body mass, yearling health and antlers since we began our management practice 10+ years ago. We estimate our current doe to buck ratio at 2 to 1. With this, we have consitently seen more rutting activity and many more sightings of mature bucks due to them having to search for the hot doe. Case in point, I saw a 3.5, and a 5.5-6.5 and another 3.5yr old bucks chasing the same doe earlier in Nov. Do we see as many "deer" as we did 10years ago, absolutely not. But I don't care. I used to sit through morning hunts and see 20-30plus does and maybe a 1.5 year old buck. We also do not pop every doe that sticks her head out, but we do try and keep a balanced 2:1 or 3:1 ratio and it works!

I am with you on the coyote statement. Coyotes kill a percentage, but I do not beleive it is anywhere in the neighborhood of 75%. Just like someone said above, where are all the remains? I'm on my land atleast 60 plus days a year and have found 1 ever and I beleive it was a road warrior that killed it. And we too have plenty of coyotes.


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## C.Killmaster (Dec 12, 2009)

DanBROWNING said:


> a few quick questions sir, how and from where do you get your harvest numbers? are your numbers based on the harvest for south, central,or north ga.? does any one actually go out into the woods any more? when will we be able to see all the harvest numbers from the wmas,sign in and qouta hunts. thanks



Follow this link to see how harvest estimates are obtained, no sense in retyping it.  The harvest is broken down by deer management unit, so it covers the whole state.
http://www.georgiawildlife.org/node/464

Yes, biologists do spend time in the field.  I've spent less than one day a week in the office for the last 3 months.  When I'm off duty, I'm in the woods hunting.

The WMA harvest summaries will be finalized this summer.  If you want to know the results of a specific hunt sooner, just call the Game Management region office for that WMA and ask.


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## ambush80 (Dec 12, 2009)

C.Killmaster said:


> Follow this link to see how harvest estimates are obtained, no sense in retyping it.  The harvest is broken down by deer management unit, so it covers the whole state.
> http://www.georgiawildlife.org/node/464
> 
> Yes, biologists do spend time in the field.  I've spent less than one day a week in the office for the last 3 months.  When I'm off duty, I'm in the woods hunting.
> ...



Sounds like an egghead, liberal, scientist, deskjockey, lap dog of the insurance compannies to me  JUST KIDDING!!!

Seriously, I appreciate and respect the often thankless job that you guys do.  I know that you want what I want and what all the people who gripe at you want; to insure that we can continue to enjoy a health and abundant deer herd.

That being said, can you tell me where to find a deer on Redlands?


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## whitworth (Dec 12, 2009)

*You could be from*

from Pennsylvania.  

Those folks are never happy about the deer population. Some write about it 52 weeks a year.   I think it disturbs them to take off a few days in their two week gun hunting season.


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## TwistedCedar (Dec 12, 2009)

GA DAWG said:


> Yep..It aint the coyotes..It aint the mountain lions and black panthers..Its the hunters! I've probably got more yotes than anywhere in the state on land I hunt..I kill a few a year but I probably have as many deer as most places in the state also..WHY? Cause I dont shoot every doe that sticks its head out  We have a limit on em in my clubs also..It makes all the difference in the world..What went wrong is folks wanting to kill the big ol bucks..They bought into the killing of all does to make your bucks move better..Thats a joke and I still hear folks say it today..Now just guess where your bucks are gonna be when you get all your does killed..They are going to be on my land where the does are plentiful..I got a wall full of them to prove it



I have my wall full as well....and im only 20 years old..10 does a year isnt a dent!!!  im willing to bet ive seen more bucks on my teeny tiny little bit of land than you have on you huge tract with all of those does. chances are your ratio is all out of wack and ours is pretty dang good....thats why when we take a trophy out of our place hes not a baby. 120 inch deer gets to walk another year around my place. Now i havent killed the monster ive been after this year. but that doesnt bother me. i have lots of pictures of bucks that i took from my stand this year. Like i said...ten does isnt a dent...next year another ten will come off if i can do it.  And chances are another supurb buck or two will come off as well.


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## the Lackster (Dec 12, 2009)

deer aint stupid. wash your behines before entering the woods. To many deer are being killed. Look at the deer that come from the midwest states every year. look at their limits and ours. We clearly need more agriculture and less kills. 10 isnt a big number but times that by every big game liscence holder in ga then throw in a few more thousand  does that get poached.


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## KyleRAHC (Dec 13, 2009)

I agree with the doe statement, I think it should be 2 bucks and 2 does. If you get 4 deer processed, that is enough meat to last a year or possibly two years. I have seen people who kill small does, why kill small does? That's not even worth the processing fee.


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## Nicodemus (Dec 13, 2009)

KyleRAHC said:


> I agree with the doe statement, I think it should be 2 bucks and 2 does. If you get 4 deer processed, that is enough meat to last a year or possibly two years. I have seen people who kill small does, why kill small does? That's not even worth the processing fee.





Don`t eat much venison, do you? Some of us still know how to process our own deer.


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## huntingonthefly (Dec 13, 2009)

KyleRAHC said:


> I agree with the doe statement, I think it should be 2 bucks and 2 does. If you get 4 deer processed, that is enough meat to last a year or possibly two years. I have seen people who kill small does, why kill small does? That's not even worth the processing fee.



Maybe last you a year. Me and my family have ate 4  in less than 2 months, lol. Keep on buying that nasty grocery store meat.


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## WhitetailHunter40 (Dec 15, 2009)

well place i hunt in oglethorpe has had good deer sightings its just the hunting pressure and this time of the year it always gets tough to see them most have beeen bred and they lay low and feed at night


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## WhitetailHunter40 (Dec 15, 2009)

and another thing i think they need to go back to the early days when deer season was closed from december 9th til 2 days before christmas my self these young hunters dont know about what we use to go thru hunting back in the early days and go back to doe season to not every day doe season


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## WhitetailHunter40 (Dec 15, 2009)

and saurday when we left our hunting camp we seen a deer in the edge of the pines going up the road some one had what i see it as a poacher   cut his rack off and left the deer laying that is one more thing that is wrong these days


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## Throwback (Dec 15, 2009)

I have a booger in my nose. 


T


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## bamahawgs (Dec 15, 2009)

I recently read an article in one of the midwest states that they have actually considered closing the season every seventh year i wonder what that will do to the herd...?


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## Milkman (Jan 2, 2010)

Milkman said:


> Maybe we ought to start another thread with this line of discussion, but I like the concept of getting a program going to lower the number of coyotes even if we cant erradicate them. I know yotes arent our only problem but I think everyone agrees we sure dont need them or like them.
> Jeff I think if DNR could figure some way to fund and facilitate the bounty program it would be great. However as with any program it will take $$$$$.
> IMO if a bounty were offered it would be better if it were more substantial, that would encorage the land owner to shoot them or allow someone to shoot them and share the money.
> 
> ...



I ask the question again......is this idea anywhere close to feasible ???


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## C.Killmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Milkman said:


> I ask the question again......is this idea anywhere close to feasible ???



If impacts on the deer population are the concern, the much cheaper and easier option is reduced doe harvest on properties that have coyote problems.  Many people dislike coyotes, but they do fill an ecological void left by red wolves.

As far as a bounty being feasible, the cost would limit the number taken to a small fraction of the coyote population that would quickly be replenished through reproduction.  On top of that, it would be difficult to focus that harvest on areas where it's needed most.  Currently, coyotes are valued at $50 to $125 each (alive) to trappers.  In a way, we already have a bounty and you can see how limited the effectiveness would be.

Managing a deer population on a higher density can reduce the overall effect coyotes may have.  This is a problem that is best handled on an individual property basis.


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## Throwback (Jan 2, 2010)

Milkman said:


> I ask the question again......is this idea anywhere close to feasible ???





Milk, 

1) EVERYONE, and I mean ALL the farmers I know of shoot them on sight now. 

2) 350,000 people will buy  a bounty tag? That's almost everyone or at least a strong majority that buys a license to hunt now in this state. No way that many will sell. Oh, and people will complaint about even having to buy that, too. 

3) EVERY state, as far as I know, that has tried a bounty has made everyone feel good that they were "trying to get rid of the evil coyotes" , but nothing else was really accomplished. 

4) I am trying to say this tactfully. Hunters are not the ONLY people in GA that are affected by the deer population. Many if not most other people that have "skin in the game" want the population LOWER than hunters want for their own reasons. Farmers, gardeners, people that drive cars, etc. don't want them standing around thick as hair on a dogs back everywhere they turn.  Frankly, the doe that had made herself at home in my garden last summer got hit by a car in the road and I danced a jig. 


T


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## Milkman (Jan 2, 2010)

C.Killmaster said:


> If impacts on the deer population are the concern, the much cheaper and easier option is reduced doe harvest on properties that have coyote problems.  Many people dislike coyotes, but they do fill an ecological void left by red wolves.
> 
> As far as a bounty being feasible, the cost would limit the number taken to a small fraction of the coyote population that would quickly be replenished through reproduction.  On top of that, it would be difficult to focus that harvest on areas where it's needed most.  Currently, coyotes are valued at $50 to $125 each (alive) to trappers.  In a way, we already have a bounty and you can see how limited the effectiveness would be.
> 
> Managing a deer population on a higher density can reduce the overall effect coyotes may have.  This is a problem that is best handled on an individual property basis.





Throwback said:


> Milk,
> 
> 1) EVERYONE, and I mean ALL the farmers I know of shoot them on sight now.
> 
> ...



Charlie/Throwback,

Thanks for the replies 

I was suggesting what if we tack a $10 mandatory coyote bounty fund fee onto every license purchase as a way of funding the program.

The $125 bounty for live ones is harder to get since you gotta trap em.  If we can a decent bounty for dead yotes I bet we would have many more hunters, landowners, and folks looking to make a dollar from a system like this.

MM


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## C.Killmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Milkman said:


> Charlie/Throwback,
> 
> Thanks for the replies
> 
> ...



It is possible that that venture could reduce the coyote population if it had enough participation.  The other cost you have to factor in is the administrative aspect of dealing with the whole ordeal.  You would need tremendous public support to increase the license fee by $10, which probably won't happen on the heels of the switch to the new license system.  Honestly, if we gained another $3 or $4 million, there are many other better uses such as additional county rangers and more biologists dedicated strictly to private lands.  I firmly believe you would have a much more positive impact on the resource.  

One other piece of info, current research suggests that coyotes must be trapped/removed heavily immediately prior to and during fawning to have any noticeable effect on recruitment rates.  Opportunistic coyote harvest the rest of the year has little effect on saving fawns.


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## Throwback (Jan 2, 2010)

> One other piece of info, current research suggests that coyotes must be trapped/removed heavily immediately prior to and during fawning to have any noticeable effect on recruitment rates. Opportunistic coyote harvest the rest of the year has little effect on saving fawns.



One of the trappers I read says the same thing regarding sheep and lambing kills. Think about it. Killing a female when she's pregnant but before she gives birth will kill 6 or more coyotes, but if you wait till the fall you'll get one at best. 

T


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## Milkman (Jan 2, 2010)

C.Killmaster said:


> One other piece of info, current research suggests that coyotes must be trapped/removed heavily immediately prior to and during fawning to have any noticeable effect on recruitment rates.  Opportunistic coyote harvest the rest of the year has little effect on saving fawns.



Charlie,
My point is we need more than just "opportunistic" coyote hunting in order to make it effective. A bounty program might do that. But it may not be feasible. That was my question.

Not to argue because I do understand the logic.......... but a coyote I shoot in any other season of the year  wont be eating any fawns in June either will he


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## C.Killmaster (Jan 3, 2010)

Milkman said:


> Charlie,
> My point is we need more than just "opportunistic" coyote hunting in order to make it effective. A bounty program might do that. But it may not be feasible. That was my question.
> 
> Not to argue because I do understand the logic.......... but a coyote I shoot in any other season of the year  wont be eating any fawns in June either will he



I don't know exactly where it's published or if it's published yet, but I have heard that opportunistic coyote harvest can increase pup survival and further compound a problem.  There may be fewer adults taking fawns, but more pups will survive due to increased food resources and less social pressure outside a family group.  I believe that more current research, some of which we are conducting, will show that higher deer density populations can tolerate the predation reasonably well.  They key is getting the deer population to that level.  To date, all the SE coyote research that has shown such devastating numbers has been done in deer populations with fewer than 20 deer per square mile.  In that situation, each fawn is that much more critical.


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## redlevel (Jan 3, 2010)

droptine06 said:


> Do we see as many "deer" as we did 10years ago, absolutely not. But I don't care. I used to sit through morning hunts and see 20-30plus does and maybe a 1.5 year old buck.



This is the crux of the whole population argument.   Deer were overpopulated for so long that people now think they are getting cheated if they don't see thirty or forty deer every weekend.  I remember when my neighbor killed fifty or sixty deer per Summer with a depredation permit.  His soybeans were still nipped off at about six inches.   Most hunters aren't looking for a trophy, or even quality, they want to see _a bunch of deer._  If they don't, then they whine that the population is too low.



Throwback said:


> 4) I am trying to say this tactfully. Hunters are not the ONLY people in GA that are affected by the deer population. Many if not most other people that have "skin in the game" want the population LOWER than hunters want for their own reasons. Farmers, gardeners, people that drive cars, etc. don't want them standing around thick as hair on a dogs back everywhere they turn.  Frankly, the doe that had made herself at home in my garden last summer got hit by a car in the road and I danced a jig.
> 
> 
> T



Oh come on now.  Us peach growers are proud to suffer a few thousand dollars in damage to young trees every year just so the Davey Crocketts and Dan'l Boones can see a parade of deer every morning.   One hunting gentleman who has posted on this very thread told me that if I didn't want the damage, I should "build a fence."  He was serious, too.

I am currently in the process of building an eight foot fence around a one acre garden plot. The deer population in Taylor County is down considerable from what it was twenty years ago, but there are still about twice too many.   I am going to try to grow an acre of "pick-your-own" vegetables on an acre irrigated with drip irrigation.  If I expect to have any produce, I know I will have to keep the deer out.  I have had peas almost ready to pick and had a few does come in and mow them down over night too many times.   To fence it right is going to cost upwards of $1200.  I can't really afford to build one around 100 acres of peaches.


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## georgiaoutdoorsman (Jan 3, 2010)

i used to see deer by the dozens just driving up to my farm now i am lucky to see any i think it is the pressure and the pressure pushes then to come nocturnal. The coyotes i think also have a little to do with it.


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## swalker1517 (Jan 3, 2010)

Nicodemus said:


> Don`t eat much venison, do you? Some of us still know how to process our own deer.



X2!


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## Throwback (Jan 3, 2010)

Isn't part of a lower deer population also a HEALTHIER (and the resulting bigger racks) population? 

Also, in the last 30 years the habitat in this area has changed a good bit from mixed forests, truck farms, some small grain farming, grass farms (cattle and hay) etc. to sterile pine forests, virtually no oak trees, subdivisions and more roads. The population in the state has went from about 3.5 million in 1970 to almost 9 million now. The ATL metro area now extends to probably 40% of the state, and when I was a kid you didn't even know you were anywhere NEAR atlanta till you were north of shannan mall on I-85 north. Now it starts south of NEWNAN. No way we could sustain the same deer population (well over a million) of a few years ago and not have some serious problems in that area, because simultaneous to all this, deer hunter numbers are dropping to probably less than 5% of the population, and it will get MUCH lower in the next 20 years. when the baby boomers are gone, there goes HALF of the hunters in the state, at least.  



T


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## Throwback (Jan 3, 2010)

redlevel said:


> To fence it right is going to cost upwards of $1200.  I can't really afford to build one around 100 acres of peaches.



Yes you can cause you're "a rich greedy landowner" 

T


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## dominantpredator (Jan 3, 2010)

ForestNinja said:


> Well this one is easy. You got a 10 doe limit. It takes does to make more deer. Kill all the does and you soon have no deer. That was EASY



Bingo. There are way too many deer killing idiots in Georgia. They say it is ok because it is legal. Quess what? Abortion is legal too. I still disagree with abortion too. Quit killing all the deer and you will see more of them from the stand. Very simple logic, even a caveman can do it.


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## disabled (Jan 3, 2010)

from what i seen in peach and crawford county is to many does killed .and a lot  of shinning on some farms .and then you got the guys with big dollars get the land and the average man cant get a good track to hunt we also need a state season not a southern and northern zone.and drop the limit


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## Jeff Phillips (Jan 3, 2010)

C.Killmaster said:


> I don't know exactly where it's published or if it's published yet, but I have heard that opportunistic coyote harvest can increase pup survival and further compound a problem.  There may be fewer adults taking fawns, but more pups will survive due to increased food resources and less social pressure outside a family group.  I believe that more current research, some of which we are conducting, will show that higher deer density populations can tolerate the predation reasonably well.  They key is getting the deer population to that level.  To date, all the SE coyote research that has shown such devastating numbers has been done in deer populations with fewer than 20 deer per square mile.  In that situation, each fawn is that much more critical.



So does the state plan to change the limits or go back to doe days to reduce the pressure on does?


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## DanBROWNING (Jan 3, 2010)

Jeff Phillips said:


> So does the state plan to change the limits or go back to doe days to reduce the pressure on does?



maybe, after they finish there coyote impact study.


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## stixxbaseball (Jan 3, 2010)

Lots of good thoughts have been expressed and I'm sure most of them deserve some merit. Many have spoken about the recent years of drought but let's not forget the abundance of rain this past year has brought. I am fortunate enough to hunt on a local plantation that is set up for quail hunting. The underbrush is burned off every spring but with the rains from this past year, the annual growth is extremely high. I can count at least 8 hunting trips that I actually saw deer for less than 5 seconds and never saw them again. I am sure it happened as many times that I didn't see the deer. I also believe the coyotes are doing way more damage than most believe. I know they are God's creatures as well but I sure wish we could eradicte them.


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## Throwback (Jan 3, 2010)

What we need to do is conduct some board "research" and see who sees "less deer than ever".......every year.....  

T


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## Georgia Clay (Jan 3, 2010)

I see more deer than ever, because we have a united effort to stop poaching, sneaking in, and road hunting. 

Although the patterns have changed thanks to a recent move in who has self decided that we have too many deer and has been allowing any and all to fill their tags on his 60 acre tract. Deer just aren't bedding on his property like they had done for who knows how long. 

Best season I've had in a couple of years, but northern season should go until Feb. 1 in my opinion.


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## Jeff Phillips (Jan 3, 2010)

Throwback said:


> What we need to do is conduct some board "research" and see who sees "less deer than ever".......every year.....
> 
> T



I actually saw more this year than the last several years. My primary issue is the lack of fawns with the does and the pressure on the does.

I saw 2 fawns this year and 1 of those was shot by poachers who were caught, fined $3000 between the 2, and lost their hunting privilages for 5 years.

After the first 2 weeks of the season the does were gone. We had 1 shot early, but the neighbors shot all they saw, so we had very few seen toward the end of the season.

I have every intention of going to the land owners and offering more money for those leases to try to get rid of a couple of neighbors!


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## Throwback (Jan 3, 2010)

Jeff Phillips said:


> I have every intention of going to the land owners and offering more money for those leases to try to get rid of a couple of neighbors!



Then you'll become the hated "rich folks from Et-Lanter" 

T


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## Jeff Phillips (Jan 4, 2010)

Throwback said:


> Then you'll become the hated "rich folks from Et-Lanter"
> 
> T



Oh well

We tried to talk to them and they told us "ya'll keep passing em and well keep shooting em".

So I need to take them out of the area.


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## treadwell (Jan 4, 2010)

I have had three people that I work with ask me, "What has happened to all the deer, I don't see them like I used to?". Funny that even people that don't hunt have noticed a difference. As to  joining a lease with very low membership, congrats if you  have the money.....I DON'T. I do the best I can.


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## Milkman (Nov 10, 2010)

Is it time to wake this one up again yet


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## 7mmMag (Nov 10, 2010)

I hunt northern taliferro also 10 years ago there wasn't a time I walked in the woods without seeing deer. This year since opening day I have seen 5. There is a hunter across the line blasting away every sat. morning killing everything that walks by. The property I'm hunting now I used to see tons of deer going to my old land now nothing. My opinion limits are too high and hunters are just now starting to see results.


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## r_hammett86 (Nov 10, 2010)

Milkman said:


> There have been several threads and posts related to this recently.
> 
> Many of us are seeing less deer in some areas that formerly offered more deer sightings. Is it simply that there are less deer ? Have they become more nocturnal than they used to be?
> 
> ...





because ALOT of people just shoot way more than their tags allow... we get what 12, i know of people shooting 5+ bucks in a season.... decent bucks... makes me mad, i do good to kill 1-3 deer a year. and i hunt a good bit.


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## basskid5000 (Nov 11, 2010)

i have been lucky enough to have access to lots of property close by my house and usually shoot a decent buck and two-three does a year. I used to go out and see deer every time i went in the woods. I still hunt just as much now as I have in the past years and the numbers are down... also size of the deer around here have gotten smaller.. but numbers are hurting. places where I would go and see deer every time i hunted such as funnel areas are trash spots now. I've even checked multiple other properties close by and it's the same thing around there too.
I have noticed seeing alot more coyotes this year than ever. I get to hunt 3-4 times a week and at least 1 time I see coyotes. probably seen 30 this year alone. I've killed a couple but at times i feel bad because after you kill one there isn't much you can do with it, that i know of.
i don't know how hard coyotes are on deer but i know they will kill young ones and fawns a lot. I think we really need to start looking into some way to start getting rid of them and fast.


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## bubbafowler (Nov 11, 2010)

improper land management.  Too many people watch TV and think they are biologist and can manage thier own land, and mess it up.   I have seen more deer this year than in the last 5 years combined, but I conduct surveys of the browse on my land as well as camera surveys to know how many deer I have and how many the land can hold.  I then set the number of does that can be killed on the property that year.   Whoever kills them first is the lucky one.   Been doing this better and better every year, but really started doing it about 5 years ago, and every year there have been mature bucks killed, some years two or three, and we always have a good season.   Main thing is, if you don't know what you are doing, dont be scared to ask for help. Better to kill big deer and see lots of deer and have to ask for help then it is trying to do it on your own and not seeing anything.


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## Sterlo58 (Dec 15, 2011)

Had a great year so far. Seeing plenty on our Wilkes county Land. I hunt with folks who never see deer on the same piece of property I hunt. All they know how to do is hunt food plots and usually the same one over and over. I hunted acorns most of the early season and now that the acorns are gone ( as well as those frustrated hunters ) I am seeing plenty of deer on my fresh previously unhunted food plots.


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## Da Possum (Dec 15, 2011)

GASeminole said:


> Cough


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## huntfourfun (Dec 15, 2011)

Seen more this year than ever.....oh well.


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## Milkman (Dec 15, 2011)

GASeminole said:


> Cough





hdm03 said:


>



yeah, what he said, who woulda started such a thread anyway  :swords::swords:


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## papachaz (Dec 15, 2011)

increased pressure makes em hide. just a question on something i'm curious about. a lot of talk about hunters taking too many deer, but how many are lost to other deaths? somewhere i read the hunted kill ratio is something like 1.4 per hunter, but how many deer are killed being hit by cars? i bet the insurance company stats are out there somewhere....


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## dawg2 (Dec 15, 2011)

...it's a conspiracy


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## killa86 (Dec 15, 2011)

We are seein less deer cause there are less deer about 500,000 less than there were 10 years ago. 

Also there is less forested square mile of habitat for the deer and there are alot of deer piled into small urban areas that folks cant hunt.

Coyotes definitely have an impact on reproduction. We had a trapper come in and catch 8 on 219 acres in a couple of weeks this year and had 16 fawns on camera this beats last years 1 fawn on camera and the year before 1 fawn on camera. If he is available i will let him have at it again prior to fawning.


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## Doe Master (Dec 15, 2011)

killa86 said:


> We are seein less deer cause there are less deer about 500,000 less than there were 10 years ago. Also there is less forested square mile of habitat for the deer and there are alot of deer piled into small urban areas that folks cant hunt.
> 
> Coyotes definitely have an impact on reproduction. We had a trapper come in and catch 8 on 219 acres in a couple of weeks this year and had 16 fawns on camera this beats last years 1 fawn on camera and the year before 1 fawn on camera. If he is available i will let him have at it again prior to fawning.


Who ya reckon herded all the deer up to count them then and now?

We know some areas have more and some less so guessing would be the only true way to get these numbers right?


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## mtr3333 (Dec 15, 2011)

I'm sticking to my story last from year and throwing in some acorns.


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## killa86 (Dec 15, 2011)

Doe Master said:


> Who ya reckon herded all the deer up to count them then and now?
> 
> We know some areas have more and some less so guessing would be the only true way to get these numbers right?



do i sense a small dose of necessary sarcasm


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## killa86 (Dec 15, 2011)

mtr3333 said:


> I'm sticking to my story last from year and throwing in some acorns.



Now quit throwin acorns at everybody on here. Thats a waste of good bait for the southern zone for those of us that dont have any


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## REDFOXJR (Dec 15, 2011)

kowkiller said:


> I read a study that was conducted in S.C. and they radio collarded 12 fawns and 10 where killed by coyotes. Not very good odds I have killed 3 coyotes the last two years I had never seen one until 5 years ago.



I have seen more yotes this year than any other season I ever hunted.


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## Throwback (Dec 15, 2011)

they've been here for 25 years (coyotes). I've heard less in the last couple of years than ever before. 

T


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## kmckinnie (Dec 15, 2011)

Well! Now that is a deep subject! We see the same amount of tracks and take nice pics, mostly at night but some are in the day.
Maybe its just a cycle that occures with time, I'm working on a plantation building a house they hunt quail so the deer hunters there have well fed undisturbed deer and there sightings are way down! And its not just this place, several are saying the same thing! Alot of yall are saying the same thing! Some have had success and that always happens! Maybe its just a sun, moon & star alignment thing! This is the 1st year in 10 years I have not killed a good buck by now! I killed 1 doe with a bow, same as last year! I have seen only ahandful of deer compared to last year!

There is alot of acorns everywhere,last year nothing compared to this! And it has stayed warmer so the acorns have not rotted from the freezes and rain! We'll gettem the last weekend! LOLs


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## skeeter1 (Dec 15, 2011)

well i can tell you this  much  and  i ain't  no deer  expert ,  but  i  do race  dang  near year round  , dirt cars  and   go- karts with my kids,  and  in the  past  years   i have  noticed  less and less deer  at night   comin  home   2 and  3  and  5 hour   trips  to get home  from tracks  all up and down   the  east coast  and   all corners of georgia    at   2  to 4 in  the  morning,geting home
and  this  is  just  about  every weekend   year round
  we  use  to  see  30  to 40  does   on the  way home   on full moon nights  ,   seen  3 to 5   the last few years  ,  so  don't give  me   that nocturnal crap!!,    i  have   killed  5 deer with  trucks  and  race  trailers   ,


haven't hit one  in  5 years,    there  is  definetly  less deer ,   and   the  drought  and  over huntin  could  be  a  big problem,   and  all the  farmers  with permits   killin them  all year around,   and    i know  they kill  the mess out  of them all year round   , i live  right  smack dab in the  middle of  farm country,  and   hear  it talked about all the time , and   add poachers  to the mix and  with  all this  added up  thats  why we  have  and  are seeing less  deer !!


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## DvilleDawn (Dec 15, 2011)

Throwback said:


> they've been here for 25 years (coyotes). I've heard less in the last couple of years than ever before. T



In my opinion anyone claiming the decline in deer sightings or population is due to high coyote numbers are just wanting to justify they're thirst to hunt coyotes without limits.  I put a cam on my carcus the other day and had, 1 Horned Owl, 1 Opposum, 5 Vultures, 1 Hawk, and my 2 Coyotes (bounded pair) that live in a den on my creek. I am surrounded by farm land and mountains, where are "ALL" of these coyotes these people speak of?  

My numbers this year compared to last year are extremely down. 

1.) I believe that the drought is playing a great roll. My fruit trees, grapes, blueberrys, etc. hardley even produced this year. For this reason I believe that the deer are deeper in the woods seeking out other food sources.

2.) I also however believe that the limits are to high making the pressure high. Last year what deer did come in here would lay in my feilds during the day and graze my food sources all day long. But this year, what deer I do have, have gone nocternal. I am seeing deer on my cams, almost exclusively at night.

So Drought and Pressure. JMHO


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## skeeter1 (Dec 15, 2011)

deeper in the  woods ?  this ain't  canada , 

this  is  georgia 
you  go  deep in the  woods  you come out in somebody else's  back yard!! , 
better  go look up google  earth   ain't to many   woods   left  over a mile   thick !
  so deeper in the woods  my foot!!

there  is  just  less deer  period !!


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## dawg2 (Dec 15, 2011)

Throwback said:


> they've been here for 25 years (coyotes). I've heard less in the last couple of years than ever before.
> 
> T



I don't see nor hear as many yotes on my personal property as I used to.  I may get 1 or 2 pics a year (none this year).  At my lease I don't hear as many hollering as I used to.


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## skeeter1 (Dec 15, 2011)

them  coyotes  have  gottin thick  down here in south ga ,   never  seen   or  hurd this many  in my life ,  i hurd  a  pack  the other night  sounded   like  there  where  20 of them   , they where  louder than  my   hunting  dogs when they runnin and  thats  21  head strong!!


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## NCHillbilly (Dec 16, 2011)

> shoot a doe if you want to kill something so bad.





> If a hunter has taken deer in his/her past and they want meat........Why not shoot a doe?????





> I get my meat from does.........





> I can fill my freezer with doe venison..........





> there are plenty of doe's to fill ones freezer.





> Does fill the freezer just fine.





> plenty of does to harvest later on





> But why shoot one for meat when there are plenty of does



.....x1,00000.........

I have no idea why the population of deer is getting smaller


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## kathy1959 (Dec 16, 2011)

ForestNinja said:


> Well this one is easy. You got a 10 doe limit. It takes does to make more deer. Kill all the does and you soon have no deer. That was EASY



I totally agree


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## spinefish (Dec 16, 2011)

It only takes Does to make more deer?

Didn't know that.


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## NCHillbilly (Dec 16, 2011)

spinefish said:


> It only takes Does to make more deer?
> 
> Didn't know that.



No, you're right. How silly of us. Most of the fawns are actually borne by young bucks. I keep forgetting that does are useless because they don't have horns. Let's kill all of 'em so that we can have more big bucks, by all means. They should increase the doe limit to twenty or thirty, then we'd see a lot more deer.


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## hortonr (Dec 16, 2011)

Well I was going to be the black sheep but someone beat me to it. I am seeing more deer now than ever. I would like to see dnr change the bag limit,not on does,but limit bucks to one. Not fill in the date tag, a tag that goes on his horns like it used to be. Get the buck doe ratio closer youll see more deer


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## spinefish (Dec 16, 2011)

NCHillbilly said:


> No, you're right. How silly of us. Most of the fawns are actually borne by young bucks. I keep forgetting that does are useless because they don't have horns. Let's kill all of 'em so that we can have more big bucks, by all means. They should increase the doe limit to twenty or thirty, then we'd see a lot more deer.



Man, you took some liberties with that one. My point is that it takes bucks to knock up the does, so you can't just kill only bucks either. 
You can't have it both ways: you can't say "I want to be able to shoot whatever I want" and then say "Stop shooting all the does". Ultimately, what you are doing is trying to force your opinion on everyone else, which is exactly what you seem to hate on this forum.
Doe harvest numbers are not driven by the opinions on this forum, it's just reality. And it's not because of QDM. It's because they are easier to shoot and the meat is considered more tender.
Quit being so angry because others don't see it your way.


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## jimmyb (Dec 16, 2011)

Well here is my two cents,i started huntin in ga in 1987 all public land of course,BF Grant,Ogeechee,and Ceader creek.Ogeechee had a muzzleloader hunt i attended every year had about the same number of hunters but the harvest each year declined by roughly 70 deer a year the first year i was there 600 were killed the last year there were only 200 killed.BF Grants hunts were buck only,they had a seperate doe hunt.The first couple of years there i seen a ton of bucks and does,big shooters too,tracks every where river crossings looked like motor cycle trails,fast forward 20 years i went back to BF Grant in 08 river crossings were still there with almost no tracks in them,i summed it up to the more liberal bag limit on oconne n.f.which borders BF Grant.Another good  example Dilane wma, Yes there are places still with a good deer population,but its small pockects of landcompared too the whole state  like in years past. Sorry for such a long post but its way different now than it used to be.


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## NCHillbilly (Dec 16, 2011)

Never said I was angry, or trying to tell anybody what to shoot. Just saying that letting every single buck walk and shooting all the does isn't the end-all answer everywhere like so many horn cult members seem to think.You know the deer population in your area better than I do. I shoot does too, in places where there are lots of deer. I don't shoot ten a year, though. And I won't shoot a doe around where I live, period, just because there are very few deer. We have one doe day a year, and I think it should be cancelled for a few years, personally. It's just that everybody always says "shoot does does does does does and leave all the bucks," like the does don't matter. Many people repeat this mindlessly like a mantra without thinking about the implications, shoot ten does off a hundred acre lease a year, then complain because they don't see deer.You know as well as I do that one buck will breed a scad of does, and if there are does in heat, a buck will find them. You're not gonna kill all the bucks in an area. But it can be really easy to kill enough does to drop the populatation drastically. Of course, some places are overpopulated and could use a good doe thinning. But some areas just won't stand a heavy doe harvest year after year without the population going downhill on greased skis.


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## spinefish (Dec 16, 2011)

Agreed.


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## NCHillbilly (Dec 16, 2011)

spinefish said:


> Agreed.



*Insert myocardial infarction smiley*


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## spinefish (Dec 16, 2011)

Ha. Yeah. I do think too many does get shot, and maybe that's due to bag limits being too high, but if people would do a better job assessing their numbers maybe they would know whether or not shooting a doe or a buck would be more appropriate. 
DNR numbers show that 60-65% of annual harvest is does.

When folks tell someone to "just shoot a doe", their mindset is probably that the person is going to only shoot a deer or two, not 10.


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## NCHillbilly (Dec 16, 2011)

spinefish said:


> Ha. Yeah. I do think too many does get shot, and maybe that's due to bag limits being too high, but if people would do a better job assessing their numbers maybe they would know whether or not shooting a doe or a buck would be more appropriate.
> DNR numbers show that 60-65% of annual harvest is does.
> 
> When folks tell someone to "just shoot a doe", their mindset is probably that the person is going to only shoot a deer or two, not 10.



Yep. It's not necessarily that each hunter is shooting ten does, but if you have a club like so many are now that's only a couple hundred acres with a dozen members, and each member shoots two or three does a year, it adds up in a hurry. In that case, it would probably actually be better if some people shot a couple buttonheads or spikies or forkies for meat instead of the does.


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## spinefish (Dec 16, 2011)

Or they could shoot 5 or 6 booners like the one you shot that you posted the other day. That was a beast. Congrats again.


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## killa86 (Dec 16, 2011)

spinefish said:


> Or they could shoot 5 or 6 booners like the one you shot that you posted the other day. That was a beast. Congrats again.



yeah and people thought that was photoshopped. they r just jealous hillbilly


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## killa86 (Dec 16, 2011)

I come at this from a different angle of understanding because this has happened to me personally. 1st year on our wilkes county lease I had never in my entire life seen so much sign everywhere it was crazy. I heard shooting like i had not heard since back in the 90's on doe day but throughout the whole season. met the guys in the clubs around me and come to find out they had been wacking about 100 deer off of 1000 acres and about 150 off of 1500 acres for 15 years. well these boys didnt think they could kill em all and didnt quite but came close the following year the sign on our property was almost nonexistent openin day sounded like WWIII the 1500 acre shot 38 deer that year and the 1000 killed 25 deer harvest was a little down. The doe population had been knocked back so far that it has taken it 3 years of no shooting does on our part 2 years of vacancy on the 1000acres the 1500 acre club only shot 6 deer last year and some bordering propertys agreeing that we did not need to shoot any does this season again. It also has taken trapping coyotes prior to fawning to make a substansial difference in the herd fawns were 1 on camera in 2009 1 on camera 2010 and 16 on camera 2011. Its finally paying off I still have not taken a deer off of this property this season. I believe we will be able to lift some restrictions we have placed on ourselves next season as the populations continue to improve. Our biggest overall problem is educating the hunter about the carrying capacity of the land and understanding how to keep a good balance. understanding that your property and the surrounding propertys can only stand to have so many does harvested.


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## mkg 1023 (Dec 16, 2011)

skeeter1 said:


> deeper in the  woods ?  this ain't  canada ,
> 
> this  is  georgia
> you  go  deep in the  woods  you come out in somebody else's  back yard!! ,
> ...



LOL sorry man, but that's funny, buuuut sooooo true and sad lordy, i miss the 80's when there was 1000's of ac of hardwoods.. pine tree after pine tree now....


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## js2320 (Dec 16, 2011)

we still see lots of deer here but the hunting pressure is increasing greatly and lots of our deer is showing at night..... it does seem like we have a large crop of yotes but not sure of their effect on our deer herds.....i have to use balance when considering this question and in my approach to harvesting deer


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## NCHillbilly (Dec 16, 2011)

spinefish said:


> Or they could shoot 5 or 6 booners like the one you shot that you posted the other day. That was a beast. Congrats again.



Yeah, but it was tough as shoe leather. I didn't even have to make jerky out of it, it already was. I shoulda let it walk and shot me a buttonhead. 



killa86 said:


> yeah and people thought that was photoshopped. they r just jealous hillbilly



Always gonna be haters, brother.


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## REB 73 (Dec 16, 2011)

My theory is baiting has alot to do with  deer movement. I hunt around fields  deer would pour into this time of year in the ealy to late 90s now it is well after season before you see this now.


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## Big Eights (Dec 16, 2011)

Too many does being harvested is the main problem. Too many TV show taught wildlife biologist/Hunters Who try to manage 1 to 500 acres that a deer can cross in 10 minutes. People listening to them Idiot Game and Fish and DNR folks. They DONOT have a clue how many deer are killed each year, and dont care.People wake up its simple No does = No reproduction/No babies and Bucks need age to reach machurity. None of us know (even me)what the deer heard really needs, Until then lets dont be kill crazy save some for future generations.  Sorry had to vent!


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## killa86 (Dec 17, 2011)

Big Eights said:


> Too many does being harvested is the main problem. Too many TV show taught wildlife biologist/Hunters Who try to manage 1 to 500 acres that a deer can cross in 10 minutes. People listening to them Idiot Game and Fish and DNR folks. They DONOT have a clue how many deer are killed each year, and dont care.People wake up its simple No does = No reproduction/No babies and Bucks need age to reach machurity. None of us know (even me)what the deer heard really needs, Until then lets dont be kill crazy save some for future generations.  Sorry had to vent!



problem is on a new piece of property there is no way without a couple of seasons of a trail cam survey can you know how many deer you have utilizing your property. we got a new piece of property last year during the season and only shot 4 deer of it. we dont know how the neighbors are hunting, what they are shooting, you have to put a little time in to determine whats up. Hunters need to be educated to solve the problem. doesnt matter what size bucks folks choose to shoot they still need educated about carrying capacity


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## Curtis-UGA (Dec 17, 2011)

The state put the mgmt of the deer herd in the hands of the people and most have failed miserably. You see on here all the time someone who hasn't hardly seen a deer all season looking to kill some meat. They need to be huntin a new place to hunt and let where they are hunting recover.


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## Joe r (Dec 17, 2011)

I no for sure coyotes are killin a lot of deer in north ga.(walker co.)i use to see 20 are 25 deer together here in the 80,s and 90,s but no more. Because the deer are not here.you say they are nocturnal? Not so! The sign is not here and they still leave sign at nite. John,s mtn. And pigeon mtn. Have gone from killin 200 are 225 deer a hunt to 60 are 70 with the same # of hunters maybe more
on opening morning in the 80,s an 90 you could hear 1000 rounds are more go off in the last 5 years on opening morning i have heard 14 shots all put together.
And i think the powers to be have got it just like they want it.
Oh well i was around in the good old dayswhen you went to the woods and seen deer ever time you went
and it sure made hunting a lot more fun!


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## Jeff Phillips (Dec 18, 2011)

This is pretty simple really...

We are seeing less deer because we have less deer. The herd in Georgia has seen a 35+% reduction over the last 10 years.

1) More than 60% of the kill has been does for close to 15 years. We have fewer reproducing females, the herd can not recover. BTW: It is biologically impossible for the sex ratios to be worse than 1:1 in Georgia.

2) Coyotes are eating a significant number of fawns. In some areas over 65% in their first 6 weeks. The fewer fawns produced due to item 1 are further reduced due to predator losses. The WRD does not factor predation into their recruitment computer programs.

3) WRD refuses to utilize the only tool available to them to allow some recovery in the areas where the herd has been hammered. They refuse to adjust the number of either sex days based on population in each county.

4) WRD expects hunters to actually manage the herd using their brains. Georgia hunters have shown they do not have the reasoning power to be able to do this.

I expect we will see another 30-40% reduction over the next 10 years...


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## killa86 (Dec 18, 2011)

Jeff Phillips said:


> This is pretty simple really...
> 
> We are seeing less deer because we have less deer. The herd in Georgia has seen a 35+% reduction over the last 10 years.
> 
> ...



Hey Jeff. Long time no see. Folks pay close attention this man is 100% right. If we continue on this same path in 10 years our population will be horrendous. Once the coyote population in your area catch up to the amount of does they will keep your fawn recruitment at around 17-20% which means 1 fawn survives for every 5 does you can rebuild your population like this


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## Throwback (Dec 18, 2011)

well thank god maybe then I can have a garden like we used to have before the 4 legged garden vacuums became overpopulated. 

T


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## GASeminole (Dec 28, 2011)

I think its due to:

Over harvest of does and coyotes.


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## northeastassasign (Dec 28, 2011)

Its not the number of does you can legally shoot, how many people do you hear of shooting 10 does? not many. most people i know have shot one or less deer this year. Shooting does have something to do with it because if we skipped a deer season the population would explode. I believe its the yotes gobbling up all the fawns


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## whchunter (Dec 28, 2011)

*Nope*

Read my post. The DNR could lower the # and it would still be less deer. Deer can't survive if they don't have food. GA's food for wildlife continues to shrink. In TN they continually kill plenty of deer with big bag limits but they don't plant pines everywhere and they have no need to kill all of the oaks, crab apple thickets and persimmions to make sure they don't compete with the growing of pine trees. Lots of hill land in TN.


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## mtr3333 (Dec 28, 2011)

Throwback said:


> well thank god maybe then I can have a garden like we used to have before the 4 legged garden vacuums became overpopulated.
> 
> T


 Plant 30 acres... for balance.


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## Throwback (Feb 10, 2013)

bump 

5 year old thread. 


T


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## Milkman (Feb 10, 2013)

Throwback said:


> bump
> 
> 5 year old thread.
> 
> ...




Cant be different ideas, but we do have some extra folks since 08


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## Throwback (Feb 10, 2013)

Milkman said:


> Cant be different ideas, but we do have some extra folks since 08



and some of the same ones......

T


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## Mario7979 (Feb 10, 2013)

*Redneck Hunting Club in Polk County Georgia*

I have been a member for going on 8 years and we have 1500 acres....When I first started hunting their I seen deer on every hunt....I have only pulled the trigger on 1-Doe 4 years ago and 1- 8 pointer 19 Nov 2010 which is on my wall...Other members are seeing less deer as they say, but The area I hunt I see deer about 90% of the time....I do not put pressure in the area I hunt and I do not hunt it every week or every day....Not saying that it is a bad thing for the members but this is just the way I hunt....I do have a poacher that enters the area I hunt and almost caught him one morning around 5:40am....But one day I will be one up on him and it will be all over....He was hunting out of my tri-pod....I also hunt out of Cave Spring starting this past season which is 200 acres....In my opinion if i put alot of pressure on the areas I hunt I probaly would not see that many deer....It is just the way I want to hunt....Too each his own for the way they hunt....This is just my 2 cents....


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## swalker1517 (Feb 10, 2013)

Throwback said:


> bump
> 
> 5 year old thread.
> 
> ...



Lines out!


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## grouper throat (Feb 10, 2013)

Until the doe is once again sacred and not shot up like a nuisance very little will change. It would take 2-3 years to see a real difference at this point even if another doe was not shot in the whole state. I have a large lease (99,000 acres), and 2 family properties (140 and 200)I hunt. The lease was the worst year ever but the properties are consistently getting better every year. More deer, and more importantly more bucks. The only difference is does were shot 3 years ago and does haven't ever been taken off any of the family land in over a decade. Same land, cover, food, etc.

One property I check very frequently. We had 3-4 deer using the plot 6 years ago. Now there's 20+ and once the does come in we pull alot of bucks from neighboring areas.


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## mguthrie (Feb 11, 2013)

Don't know anyone that kills 10 does in a season. Our lease is covered up with deer. We killed 35 deer off 3000 acres this year. The most ever in 14 seasons I've been there. I don't see what everyone is talking about. We didn't kill a yote off the place this year. We don't have a  yote problem I don't believe.maybe y'all need to join our club. We see plenty of deer.


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## Son (Feb 11, 2013)

In my area, seeing less doesn't mean they are not there. And it doesn't mean there's too much hunting pressure. What it means is, there's too much activity from everything else. Timber cruisers, timber crews cutting etc. And not only on property, but next door too. Hunting just ain't what it used to be in SW Ga, I can remember when you went hunting and could actually hear the birds. Not now though, it's cut crews, simi's, people talking, dogs barking and donkeys hee hawing all day long. So you say, how does the timber cruisers affect anything. Well, they have this new thing about marking squares by GPS, then the blue painting trips etc.  Last turkey season was the worse i've had in years due to them riding in and out. Helocoptors spraying, planes pelletizing and free ranging dogs running around all year long. And we wonder why SW Ga deer are so skiddish?  It's not rocket science, it's because they never get a free minute to be normal deer. And then we come in when the season starts. Just a few trips and the older deer behave much like the family dog. They know the sound of everybodys vehicle. They also know it means, here they come. So, if you want to fit in. The next time you go deer hunting, sound like a donkey, four wheeler, four by four with doors shutting, cows mooing, dogs barking, and do your airplane and helocoptor noises. forget the buck grunt, snort wheeze and rattling antlers.


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## mature buck (Feb 11, 2013)

It is not hard to figure out we have less deer. Cause is over killed for several years by hunters and cyotes. Yotes are like some of our hunters, think they are born to kill. Do we want to make good management decisions are do we want to follow the less informed that are driven by greed. Spent most of my 70 years in outdoors with love of nature and hate to see what is happening to our deer. I disagree with G&F where i live we have more hunters with less knowledge than ever in my lifetime. They talk a lot about percentages but actual hunters are more. People will attempt to justify failure by offering some real lame excuses.


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## mature buck (Feb 11, 2013)

another factor is the squeal! Pigs are competition for food.


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## mature buck (Feb 11, 2013)

What can we control? Our actions, pigs, coyotes yes. Weather no!


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