# Question for Christians...



## Huntinfool (Jun 8, 2011)

If I were to meet you and say this to you...what would be your reaction?


"Man, I'm SO glad that we met.  I think we should be best buds.  I mean BFF!  I need your email, phone number, twitter account and address.

I want to hang out with you whenever I can man.  You are awesome and I can't believe we never met before.  Let's hang out all that time!

Now, your wife....I can't stand her.  Keep her away from me.  She gets on my nerves.  Let's just me and you hang out.  Your wife is annoying."


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## rjcruiser (Jun 8, 2011)

Umm...well...depends on if you had gotten me your spot in the Corn Maze Club


Now...I will say, I've never said that to someone...but I've thought it about some folks and it happens more with their kids than their spouse.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 8, 2011)

I'll explain the reason for the question in a little while.  I want to hear people's reactions.

I was going to ask a specific sub-set of Christianity, but it would give the reasons away too early.


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## dawg2 (Jun 8, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> If I were to meet you and say this to you...what would be your reaction?
> 
> 
> "Man, I'm SO glad that we met.  I think we should be best buds.  I mean BFF!  I need your email, phone number, twitter account and address.
> ...



I would have a few red flags...is this hypothetical?


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## Huntinfool (Jun 8, 2011)

Yes.....but I would argue that it happens all the time and I'm curious what people think about this situation.


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## Havana Dude (Jun 8, 2011)

My wife and I are pretty much loners. We don't socialize to even a small extent. When we do, we are often quiet, stay to ourselves mostly. Neither of us is much into small talk. So to answer your question, you would likely have to find a new friend. Having said that, I'm sure you are a fine individual, and honestly, I wish I were more open to new friendships, and socializing. But to me, and this is just me, most idle chit chat seems like a waste of time.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 8, 2011)

Let me re-word my question and ask you guys to respond.  What do you say to fellow believers when they say something like this?

"I'm a Christian.  I love Christ.  I just think the Church is full of hypocrites and so I don't associate with a church body.  God is enough for me.  I just need him.  I don't need, nor do I like the Church."

I've heard it many times and I've read it in these forums many times as well.  I will say this as gently as I know how...

How dare we claim to love the bridegroom and yet hate the bride!


Reactions?


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## rjcruiser (Jun 8, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> How dare we claim to love the bridegroom and yet hate the bride!



You can't.


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## stringmusic (Jun 8, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Let me re-word my question and ask you guys to respond.  What do you say to fellow believers when they say something like this?
> 
> "I'm a Christian.  I love Christ.  I just think the Church is full of hypocrites and so I don't associate with a church body.  God is enough for me.  I just need him.  I don't need, nor do I like the Church."
> 
> ...



Unfortunately, the bridegroom and the bride are worlds apart in a lot of cases.

A follower of Christ should want to fellowship with other followers of Christ, it _should_ be that simple.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 8, 2011)

It is that simple.


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## Havana Dude (Jun 8, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Let me re-word my question and ask you guys to respond.  What do you say to fellow believers when they say something like this?
> 
> "I'm a Christian.  I love Christ.  I just think the Church is full of hypocrites and so I don't associate with a church body.  God is enough for me.  I just need him.  I don't need, nor do I like the Church."
> 
> ...



I put no faith in man. Especially when one of them chastises my wife for not going to church on Sunday, when she had miscarried on Saturday morning, and was having minor complications. And this person knew of her predicament. Is this the "bride" you speak of?

Yes, if everything were perfect, we would hunger to be with others. There will be plenty of time to hang with them in heaven. For now, God is the only way. Now I say this as a church goer. But I absolutely refuse to get all caught up in the politics of church. Just as I refuse to get caught up in the politics of pretty much any other situation as I described earlier.


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## rjcruiser (Jun 8, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> It is that simple.



No...it isn't that simple to find a good church.  I'd actually say it is near impossible these days.  But, with hard work and determination, one can and should be found.


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## Jeffriesw (Jun 8, 2011)

If a man claims to love, yet does not love my bride, that man does not love me nor know what love is despite what he says or Thinks. That man is a liar and the truth is not in him nor am I a part of him.

Period


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## Huntinfool (Jun 8, 2011)

If you're looking for a perfect church body or even a really great one give up. 

There are screw ups in every church. Take that to the bank. There are idiots who will condemn you when you're hurting. Take it to the bank. 

Christ saw fit to consider the church his bride (warts and all) and yet many among us see fit to reject it because someone hurt our feelings. I'll say it again. How dare we!!!

The church is not a building, it's a body. There are godly men and women in nearly all of them and there goobers in nearly all. Stay away from the warts, fellowship and grow with the rest.


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## centerpin fan (Jun 8, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Let me re-word my question and ask you guys to respond.  What do you say to fellow believers when they say something like this?
> 
> "I'm a Christian.  I love Christ.  I just think the Church is full of hypocrites and so I don't associate with a church body.  God is enough for me.  I just need him.  I don't need, nor do I like the Church."
> 
> ...



That's where I thought you were going with this. 

I have also heard this a lot over the years.  At the very least, it's misguided thinking.  The "just me and my Bible" approach is not what Jesus intended.  He came and established _His church_.  If you have a problem with His church, you have a problem with Him.


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## formula1 (Jun 8, 2011)

*Re:*

I have been fortunate to find a good group of believers in which to grow in Christ, serve Him and each other, and be accountable for our walk in Christ with one another. It happens to be in a organized church in which I found these.

I could have just as easily found these things in a group of dedicated believers from the GON SF, provided we took the effort to do the same things.  It would be a discipleship group much like that of Jesus' day, provided we were committed to it. This is potentially also a 'church'.

What is not proper is trying to live your Christian walk on and island of self.  Loving God and loving people cannot be done there! 

Said another way, if you are a foot, its impossible to know where you are going without eyes.  And if you are the eyes, try moving without your feet. And without the Head, there is no direction and wisdom to move.  Seems simple to me!


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## Ronnie T (Jun 8, 2011)

Swamp Runner said:


> If a man claims to love, yet does not love my bride, that man does not love me nor know what love is despite what he says or Thinks. That man is a liar and the truth is not in him nor am I a part of him.
> 
> Period




Period.

A person who loves Christ will be drawn by God's Spirit to other Christians.  Period.
That's the foundation that Christ and the apostles lay down.  
Now, you might not like and enjoy each person at the church you choose to fellowship with.  But that's okay.  Love them from a distance and embrace the others.


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## Havana Dude (Jun 8, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Period.
> 
> A person who loves Christ will be drawn by God's Spirit to other Christians.  Period.
> That's the foundation that Christ and the apostles lay down.
> Now, you might not like and enjoy each person at the church you choose to fellowship with.  But that's okay.  Love them from a distance and embrace the others.



That about sums me up right there.


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## gtparts (Jun 8, 2011)

This is by no means a criticism of any of the previous posts. It represents my perspective, which I know to be Bible-based. 
Too many folks are bogged down in the matter of "doing church" or "not doing church"; attending or not attending. 
Church is NOT a building, nor is it a highly and intricately structured organization. It is, and has always been, the people of God. We are to "be" the church! The more Christ-like we all become, the more "attractive" the "bride" is. The biggest reason folks aren't drawn to become the "bride" is simply that we are collectively un-Christ-like.
When we start being the church (the bride) God intends us to be, then the gates of (offensive term deleted) shall not prevail against "her". Keep doing things our own way and Satan will continue to wreck havoc. 
When we truly seek to be holy, as God is holy, then we will make the difference in this world we were called to make.


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## TTom (Jun 8, 2011)

I'm going to sound a little out of place here, but I had to chime in with a simple truism I have found.

RJ Cruiser said 

"No...it isn't that simple to find a good church. I'd actually say it is near impossible these days. But, with hard work and determination, one can and should be found."

To which I respond many times it's not finding a church that should be the goal but rather making the church into what it should be.


All too often I see folks complain about different groups of all sorts and how they don't like the groups. My position has always been the first thing you do is to coopt a phrase "Be the change you want to see in your small community."

The ONLY way to change the personality of a group is from the inside.

With that I'll leave you to your fellow Christians.


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## CAL (Jun 8, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Reactions?



It is very easy to sit behind our computer screens and key boards and tell our neighbors what they need to be doing with their relationship with our Lord or they are wrong.What church they need to attend and not to worry about the hypercritical people there when we no nothing about an individuals situation at the very least.Yet if we don't attend church we are poor Christians.I am reminded of an old saying "people who live in glass houses,shouldn't throw rocks".Just wondering if this shoe fits any of us here.I seem to sense the "Holier than thou" attitude.Surely I am wrong,but wondering just the same?


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## Ronnie T (Jun 8, 2011)

TTom said:


> I'm going to sound a little out of place here, but I had to chime in with a simple truism I have found.
> 
> RJ Cruiser said
> 
> ...




You make a lot of sense.
Church, and the brethren that I've associated with in the past have never been that bad.
Oh there's been churches we tried but ended up some place else, but that doesn't mean it was a bad church.  There's been people that I don't see eye to eye with on spiritual matters, but that's not a terrible thing.

Be a peace maker.  Hug a neck.  Love someone that's very close to being unloveable.

I hate to bring this up but quite often the worst thing about church is you.
A person that doesn't have a proper attitude will find something wrong.  And probably blow it way out of proportion.
A person that has the proper godly attitude will find good even in the negative stuff.  And they'll find a way to bless people through it.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 9, 2011)

CAL said:


> It is very easy to sit behind our computer screens and key boards and tell our neighbors what they need to be doing with their relationship with our Lord or they are wrong.What church they need to attend and not to worry about the hypercritical people there when we no nothing about an individuals situation at the very least.Yet if we don't attend church we are poor Christians.I am reminded of an old saying "people who live in glass houses,shouldn't throw rocks".Just wondering if this shoe fits any of us here.I seem to sense the "Holier than thou" attitude.Surely I am wrong,but wondering just the same?



I'll be honest and tell you that I posted it the way I did in order to ruffle a few feathers.  Sometimes I think that is needed.

My point is not that you should attend church.

I've heard several in these forums say something to the effect of "I don't NEED a church family.  I don't need anybody else.  I don't need other Christians because they'll just let me down.  The Bible says that all I need is God and that's how I choose to live out my faith.  Me and God.  Nobody else."

My point is that that mindset is flat out un-biblical and goes against what Christ commands and, quite frankly, goes against the manner in which he created us.  If we only needed God....he wouldn't have created Eve.

Call it "holier than thou" if you want.  You cannot love Christ and hate the Church (again, not the building....the body).  It is not possible.


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## rjcruiser (Jun 9, 2011)

TTom said:


> I'm going to sound a little out of place here, but I had to chime in with a simple truism I have found.
> 
> RJ Cruiser said
> 
> ...




Sure the personalities can be difficult at church...but that wasn't what I was referring to as far as being difficult to find a church.

I meant more doctrinal issues than anything else....but I do hear what you are saying.

Many want to be served at church, rather than to serve the church.


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## HawgJawl (Jun 9, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> How dare we claim to love the bridegroom and yet hate the bride!




When the actions of Christians are criticized on this forum, the response, almost without exception, is that they weren't "REAL" Christians.  A clear distinction is made between a "REAL" Christian and the majority of people who claim to be Christian.  Saying that the church is the bride and should be loved equally to Christ seems to me to be a contradiction to this.

The "church" that is the "bride" of Christ is the group of people who are going to heaven and has very little to do with organized religion.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 9, 2011)

Where did you read someone saying that the Church should be loved equally to Christ?


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## HawgJawl (Jun 9, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Where did you read someone saying that the Church should be loved equally to Christ?



That was my interpretation of what you said.

You tell me, how much SHOULD the church (bride) be loved?


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## thedeacon (Jun 9, 2011)

*YOU CANNOT LOVE GOD AND NOT LOVE HIS CHURCH, THAT IS A FACT.*

I had rather spend time with a few hypocrits on earth than to spend an eternity with them in hades


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## HawgJawl (Jun 9, 2011)

thedeacon said:


> *YOU CANNOT LOVE GOD AND NOT LOVE HIS CHURCH, THAT IS A FACT.*



I agree, but the there is a lack of concensus on exactly what "HIS  CHURCH" actually is.


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## thedeacon (Jun 9, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> I agree, but the there is a lack of concensus on exactly what "HIS  CHURCH" actually is.



There is only ONE CHURCH and we don't get to choose what it is, God has already done that.

Do you think Paul would have spent so much time planting individual CHURCH'S if they were not important.

Yes sir, there is a lack of concensus on exactly what His Church is and when you discount the local gathering you have dismissed the "Church".

It is important to assemble with the family of God, the saints and join them in spiritual fellowship, join them in worship of God, join them in reaching out to those in need both spiritual and physical.

I am tired of people saying that they can stand under a tree out in the woods and worship God and call it the Church when in fact they wear their feeling on their shoulder or they are just to lazy to take part in the assembly of the saints.

Just my opinion

God bless


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## Israel (Jun 13, 2011)

What is the local church?


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## HawgJawl (Jun 14, 2011)

thedeacon said:


> There is only ONE CHURCH and we don't get to choose what it is, God has already done that.
> 
> Do you think Paul would have spent so much time planting individual CHURCH'S if they were not important.
> 
> ...



I agree that "THE CHURCH" is chosen by God, and God knows exactly who comprises His "CHURCH".  But the question is whether or not WE know who comprises His "CHURCH"?  There seems to be a wide variety of opinions on that subject and a lot of groups who believe that they are right and everyone else is wrong.

Even though the point of your above post was not to specifically describe God's "CHURCH", you did include some description.

According to you, His "CHURCH":

consists of several individual churches,
consists of local gatherings,
is the family of God,
is saints,
assembles together for spiritual fellowship,
worships God,
reaches out to those in need spiritually,
reaches out to those in need physically,
does not wear their feelings on their shoulder,
is not too lazy to take part in the assembly of saints.

Obviously this is not a complete description, because as noted above it was never intended to be a complete description.  Regardless, would you feel comfortable taking the position that any gathering that calls itself a church that does not meet at least the above criteria, is wrong and is not included in God's "CHURCH"?


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## gordon 2 (Jun 14, 2011)

Israel said:


> What is the local church?


For many of my generation the " local church" is an institution which we love, but must keep at a distance.

It is not unlike the political institutions of the Arab World in that in all to many cases, but from a spiritual perspective it no longer serves to promote the spiritual dignity of people.

All to often local churches universally become the churches and the prides of their planters, but was this the cause for which Paul ministered to congragations?

The local church baptises and debates internment vs. cremation. Inbetween it makes due with shooting doves and fishing forums.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 14, 2011)

For me the local church is not God's local church, but my local church.
It is that grouping of disciples that fall under the Bible's description of the preacher, elder, and deacons of the group.
It is that grouping of God's children where we are given an opportunity to study with, pray with, take the Lord's supper together, and offer our moneys together so that it might be used in a mightier way to spread the gospel.
It is that grouping of God's children that God has placed me with so that we might look after each other, admonish each other, strengthen each other.
It is that assembly of people that parellels the assembly of the 1st century where God was worshipped and praised as a group.
The local church was the place Paul visited and spoke so long a young man fell asleep and to his death.

The local church is my immediate family of God.  Those that I am familiar with.  Those that serve me as I serve them.  Those that God touches my life with.

For me, my local church is where I find a sense of peace and calm from the garbage of the world.  The Local Church was institutionalize by Christ and the apostles.
But that 'local' church and God's kingdom should, and are, eternally the same.


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## Phoelix (Jun 14, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> No...it isn't that simple to find a good church.  I'd actually say it is near impossible these days.  But, with hard work and determination, one can and should be found.



Wow! Really!  I guess Im unique, as the first Church my family started going to some 4 or 5 years ago, is still the Church we attend today.  It is a rather large Church, with some 2000 or so in each congregation on Sunday, and they don't come because they have to.  We have dozens of programs, something for everyone from addictions to outreach, and we are forever in debt to the Church for what it has done for us.  Our Lead Pastor wears jeans and sandals at times, and is very addamant about "come as you are",  and preaches a very entertaining and meaningful message. He's quick to point out the politics and misguidance often found in traditional Churches, ones that simply "miss the mark" as far as what we believe a Church should be, and ours is the best, for us...


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## rjcruiser (Jun 14, 2011)

Phoelix said:


> Wow! Really!  I guess Im unique, as the first Church my family started going to some 4 or 5 years ago, is still the Church we attend today.  It is a rather large Church, with some 2000 or so in each congregation on Sunday, and they don't come because they have to.  We have dozens of programs, something for everyone from addictions to outreach, and we are forever in debt to the Church for what it has done for us.  Our Lead Pastor wears jeans and sandals at times, and is very addamant about "come as you are",  and preaches a very entertaining and meaningful message. He's quick to point out the politics and misguidance often found in traditional Churches, ones that simply "miss the mark" as far as what we believe a Church should be, and ours is the best, for us...



Awesome.  Glad you've found a place that fits your needs.

My family has too, but it was a journey and not something that I thought was easy.


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## The Foreigner (Jun 21, 2011)

Speaking from the other side of the pulpit to most here, I guess, the church is what Christ says it is. His body, his Bride, his inheritance, energized bu His SPirit of Grace, and conducted according to his rules. And it is HIM according to what he said to Paul on the road to Damascus.

That's why church membership (or covenanting or whatever one calls it) is so essential. Not because it's about numbers, or the leaders of the church being gratified, but because Christ expects those who say they love him, to obey him John 14:15.

And the original question is good: one cannot love the groom without his bride. Impossible. Of course there are unhealthy Christians in all churches, and some who are not Christians at all. However the excuse "I went to this church they were unfriendly and I never went back" simply won't wash on the last day. Just another excuse.


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## thedeacon (Jun 24, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> I agree that "THE CHURCH" is chosen by God, and God knows exactly who comprises His "CHURCH".  But the question is whether or not WE know who comprises His "CHURCH"?  There seems to be a wide variety of opinions on that subject and a lot of groups who believe that they are right and everyone else is wrong.
> 
> Even though the point of your above post was not to specifically describe God's "CHURCH", you did include some description.
> 
> ...



When a person becomes a Christian he is added to the Church. You don't become a member of the Church by any other means.

I don't propose to pick and choose on here who is and who is not the Church that Christ was speaking of when he said this is my Church and the gates of he;; wwill not prevail over it.

We run around and tell people how much the church needs them when in fact its us that need the church.

God adds you to the Church when you become a Christian, YOU don't have a choice, if you want to follow Christ.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 24, 2011)

thedeacon said:


> When a person becomes a Christian he is added to the Church. You don't become a member of the Church by any other means.
> 
> I don't propose to pick and choose on here who is and who is not the Church that Christ was speaking of when he said this is my Church and the gates of he;; wwill not prevail over it.
> 
> ...




Acts 2:47 (KJV)
47.......And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.


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## hawglips (Jun 29, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> How dare we claim to love the bridegroom and yet hate the bride!
> 
> Reactions?



1Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their clamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

 2And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

 3They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

 4But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

 5While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

 6And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

 7Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their alamps.

 8And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

 9But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

 10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

 11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

 12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I aknow you not.


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## mdoolittle (Jul 4, 2011)

Wow!!!...you guys need to quit quoting the bible and start reading it


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## CAL (Jul 4, 2011)

A lots of this reminds me of a story.An old cowboy went to a church as a visitor.Now his cloths were worn but very clean and his boots were worn as well but had been brushed as best he could.Now the people of the church looked down on the cowboy and moved away from him on the bench.When the service was over and the cowboy was making his way out the pastor said to him "Ask the Lord what you need to wear to this church in the way of cloths".Well the old cowboy went his way and next Sunday went back to the same church dressed the same way and got the same treatment.At the end of the service the preacher told the old cowboy "I thought I told you to ask the Lord what to wear to this church",The old cowboy replied " I did ask the Lord what to wear to this church,the Lord said He didn't know as He had never been in this church".

Have any of you ever been to such a church.A church filled with so many loud prayers,front row setters,hand shaking hypercritic people.When out of church they would cut your throat in a heartbeat if they could and don't even speak the rest of the week.Even many of the deacons fit this same scenarir do you go to the mega church where there is a thousand or more people there and you hardly know anyone but the music is very good and the preacher brings a good message.Just wondering what kind of church you all attend and has the Holy Spirit been there.

How would you approach the church I just described?


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## Huntinfool (Jul 5, 2011)

It's a good story.  But I'm not sure how much it has to do with the question.

I agree that there are lots of folks and lots of churches who are more concerned with things like dress code than with whether they are following the Holy Spirit's lead.

That said, the point of the thread is that there are many who claim Christ and then turn around and seperate themselves from his bride.  It is not possible biblically.  You cannot follow Christ and hate the Church.

There are bad and corrupt churches out there.  I'm not talking about a building.  I'm talking about a body.


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## SneekEE (Jul 18, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> If you're looking for a perfect church body or even a really great one give up.
> 
> There are screw ups in every church. Take that to the bank. There are idiots who will condemn you when you're hurting. Take it to the bank.
> 
> ...



Did u just say The Bride of Christs has warts...and did u call her a screw-up? I think it is better said there are tares among the wheat, false converts sitting with the true.But the bride is perfect, lovley indeed.


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## Huntinfool (Jul 18, 2011)

I did....she does....she is full of them.

Call it what you want.  All Christians are not fully sanctified.


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## SneekEE (Jul 19, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> I did....she does....she is full of them.
> 
> Call it what you want.  All Christians are not fully sanctified.



I am confused, did u not start this thread to take up for the bride, to say we shouldnt bad mouth the bride of Christ?


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## Huntinfool (Jul 20, 2011)

That's not at all what I said.  I said we should love the bride.

Loving her and assuming that she is perfect are two entirely different things.  We are called to love the church.  Too many people see the warts and throw the baby out with the bathwater.  Christ commands us to love the church.  You cannot follow him and hate the church.

She is not perfect.  There is no justification for the statement that she is whatsoever and proof of it lives in every single congregation in this country.


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## Ronnie T (Jul 20, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> That's not at all what I said.  I said we should love the bride.
> 
> Loving her and assuming that she is perfect are two entirely different things.  We are called to love the church.  Too many people see the warts and throw the baby out with the bathwater.  Christ commands us to love the church.  You cannot follow him and hate the church.
> 
> She is not perfect.  There is no justification for the statement that she is whatsoever and proof of it lives in every single congregation in this country.




You're correct.
Matthew 13:24 Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. 26 But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. 27 The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves *said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he *said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

*On the day of harvest there will be a great cleaning out of God's kingdom(the church).*


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## SneekEE (Jul 20, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> You're correct.
> Matthew 13:24 Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. 26 But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. 27 The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves *said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he *said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”
> 
> *On the day of harvest there will be a great cleaning out of God's kingdom(the church).*



Still confused. Ronnie I see those verses talking about 2 differant people, the saved and the lost, the wheat and the tares.The saved are the church, the lost are not, they are false converts.But it seems u agree with that since u said at the end that there would be a cleaning out of the church. Or, u could say a cleaning of the feild, the tares will be destroyed, plucked from the feild, from the wheat. What confuses me is u said huntinfool was correct?? To me it looks like huntin fool is including the tares as beeing part of the church, and they are not. They may set in the building that is called a church, but are not part of the body, the bride, if they were they would be called wheat, not tares. The bride of Christ is perfect, she is lovly, and has no warts. Are there false converts who set along side the bride who do terrible things, say hurtfull things, ect ect giving the bride a bad name...yes. Just as tares are in the same feild as wheat, u cant tell them apart untill the crop bares fruit. The fruit of a tare is wickedness. I said all that to say this... which is what i thought huntinfool started out trying to say...... How dare we claim to love the bridegroom and yet hate the bride!

Christ died for the church, epehs. 5 says no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. She has been sanctified and cleansed by the washing of His word,
The church is the body of Christ, what you say about the bride you are saying about Him, we are the body.A glorious body, without warts or blemishes..Song os Sol. 6:10Who is she that looketh forth as the morning, fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners? The wheat and tare both bring forth fruit, one unto God, the other not fit for anything other than burrning. I read somthing in an earlier post where a man said some people said or did some horrible things about his wife who had cancer, or somthing along those lines. I dont recall exactly, but it turned my stomach... i can assure you that was not fruit unto God, that was not fruit from wheat. That is the fruit of a tare. So I think huntingfoll is correct if he is saying there are people who set within the church, looking like the church, but when they bare fruit, it is not the fruit of the spirit.They set right along side the true church, who is perfect, and lovly{ altho they may not be able to spell very well} just as there are tares among the wheat.But there is comming a day, as u said, when there will be a pruning, and then  shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.  I just want to go on record as saying that even tho that day has yet to come, i see them as shinning now, lovley and perfect, a beutifull bride indeed.


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## Ronnie T (Jul 20, 2011)

SneekEE, I'm not implying that I hate anyone in the church.  I don't even hate anyone outside the church.
The church as I know it is as pure as it can be, through the blood of Christ.
But the above parable, and those like it, say that before the earthly church is granted access to the great and beautiful wedding, those who are undeserving weeds will be separated.

As I look about me today, all I see in the church are people who've been saved by the blood of Jesus.  Sinners! but saved by Jesus.
Those parables give me an insight into the truth of what I see.  That I cannot make the judgement concerning all others in the church here on earth.  I can't know the difference between the wheat and the weeds. Christ, as head of the church, will deal with that personally.

The words of Matthew 13 come from the Bride Groom himself.
Not my words.
And like I said, I have no hate for anyone.  I love everyone in the Lord's church.


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## Ronnie T (Jul 20, 2011)

SneekEE said:


> Still confused. Ronnie I see those verses talking about 2 differant people, the saved and the lost, the wheat and the tares.The saved are the church, the lost are not, they are false converts.But it seems u agree with that since u said at the end that there would be a cleaning out of the church. Or, u could say a cleaning of the feild, the tares will be destroyed, plucked from the feild, from the wheat. What confuses me is u said huntinfool was correct?? To me it looks like huntin fool is including the tares as beeing part of the church, and they are not. They may set in the building that is called a church, but are not part of the body, the bride, if they were they would be called wheat, not tares. The bride of Christ is perfect, she is lovly, and has no warts. Are there false converts who set along side the bride who do terrible things, say hurtfull things, ect ect giving the bride a bad name...yes. Just as tares are in the same feild as wheat, u cant tell them apart untill the crop bares fruit. The fruit of a tare is wickedness. I said all that to say this... which is what i thought huntinfool started out trying to say...... How dare we claim to love the bridegroom and yet hate the bride!
> 
> Christ died for the church, epehs. 5 says no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. She has been sanctified and cleansed by the washing of His word,
> The church is the body of Christ, what you say about the bride you are saying about Him, we are the body.A glorious body, without warts or blemishes..Song os Sol. 6:10Who is she that looketh forth as the morning, fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners? The wheat and tare both bring forth fruit, one unto God, the other not fit for anything other than burrning. I read somthing in an earlier post where a man said some people said or did some horrible things about his wife who had cancer, or somthing along those lines. I dont recall exactly, but it turned my stomach... i can assure you that was not fruit unto God, that was not fruit from wheat. That is the fruit of a tare. So I think huntingfoll is correct if he is saying there are people who set within the church, looking like the church, but when they bare fruit, it is not the fruit of the spirit.They set right along side the true church, who is perfect, and lovly{ altho they may not be able to spell very well} just as there are tares among the wheat.But there is comming a day, as u said, when there will be a pruning, and then  shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.  I just want to go on record as saying that even tho that day has yet to come, i see them as shinning now, lovley and perfect, a beutifull bride indeed.



Me to.


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## Huntinfool (Jul 21, 2011)

> The church is the body of Christ, what you say about the bride you are saying about Him, we are the body.A glorious body, without warts or blemishes



Show me one example of a church body that is without warts and blemishes and I'll concede to your point.

Just one...that's all I need.

She is beautiful.  She is glorious.  But she is made up of redeemed sinners who are all in the process of sanctification.

Some of them mess up from time to time.  Some of them even argue over the color of carpet if you can believe it.


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## SneekEE (Jul 22, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> SneekEE, I'm not implying that I hate anyone in the church.  I don't even hate anyone outside the church.
> The church as I know it is as pure as it can be, through the blood of Christ.
> But the above parable, and those like it, say that before the earthly church is granted access to the great and beautiful wedding, those who are undeserving weeds will be separated.
> 
> ...



Ronnie i didnt mean to imply u hated anyone in the church, dont think i have ever heared u say u hate anyone regardless of in or out of the church. The point i am trying to make is the parrable of wheat and tares is a picture of true and false converts. Not real sure if it is referring to lost folks such as atheist, but it is referring to a group of people in the same feild that appear simmilar yet the differance is in the fruit the wheat and tare produce. 
The world is quick to point to the fruit of the tare and claim it is wheat, when in fact the parrable is explaining there is a differance.

When huntinfool says the church has warts, i disagree, i believe he is mistaking the fruit of the tare with that of the wheat. 
U can NOT know the differance between wheat and tare, they are almost identicle, until they bare fruit. Wheat will produce wheat grain, tare fruit looks nothing like wheat. So you can tell the differance once they bear fruit.The tares will be burned, the wheat gathered. Jesus put it this way....

Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 
Mat. 7
 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 

 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 

 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 

 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

I think what has had me confused is I do not consider the tares to be part of the church, part of the body, part of the bride, due to the whole burning and destroying of them b4 the wedding, yet some of the comments on this thread seems to imply that the tares are also saved people. I guess that is my question, I have never heared anyone say the tares are true believers, only that they are just false converts. Not trying to be a thorn in the side here, just askin , do yall think the parable of whaet and tares is referring to tares as saved folks?

When Jesus said many who call Him Lord Lord will perish on judgment day, i just assumed this was the tares as well. The sheep and goats, wheat and tares,  good fish bad fish, 2 in feild ect ect.

We both agree the  church is perfect, but unless i am mistaken the bible teaches there are those who sit in the church professing Jesus as Lord and He is not there Lord. I am not saying we are to do the seperating, but i am saying when the beauty of the church is criticized we should tell ppl about the wheat and tares.


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## Ronnie T (Jul 22, 2011)

SneekEE said:


> Ronnie i didnt mean to imply u hated anyone in the church, dont think i have ever heared u say u hate anyone regardless of in or out of the church. The point i am trying to make is the parrable of wheat and tares is a picture of true and false converts. Not real sure if it is referring to lost folks such as atheist, but it is referring to a group of people in the same feild that appear simmilar yet the differance is in the fruit the wheat and tare produce.
> The world is quick to point to the fruit of the tare and claim it is wheat, when in fact the parrable is explaining there is a differance.
> 
> When huntinfool says the church has warts, i disagree, i believe he is mistaking the fruit of the tare with that of the wheat.
> ...



It's good to see your dedication to the church and your insistence that no one badmouth it.  We spend too much time talking about the bad stuff in the church and not enough time talking about all the good blessed things.

I've always assumed Matthew 13 was referring to the church because it says "the kingdom of heaven" is like a farmer............. .  Then on the day that Christ comes and claims His church(bride) only those who are truly His disciples will be accepted into heaven.

That parable also tells me that I can't do that separating for God, because I'll surely remove someone that didn't deserve removing.  That's what the parable says.
So I just love the church knowing that one day God will do His thing.
I think you and I might look at it a little differently, but I believe we're in agreement.


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## wbwright (Jul 22, 2011)

...seems to me that my first reaction should be to encourage that person to get to know the wife a little better and nurture that relationship because there may have been a misunderstanding that can be made right.

I often urge folks that feel discouraged because of a bad experience with a particular congregation to keep searching and God has provided a place where they can plug in and serve but they have to keep praying and have to keep searching because that relationship is critical to their walk with Christ.


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## mtnwoman (Jul 23, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Let me re-word my question and ask you guys to respond.  What do you say to fellow believers when they say something like this?
> 
> "I'm a Christian.  I love Christ.  I just think the Church is full of hypocrites and so I don't associate with a church body.  God is enough for me.  I just need him.  I don't need, nor do I like the Church."
> 
> ...



Howdy y'all.

When they say the church is full of hypocrites, I just say ah come on man go with me, one more ain't gonna hurt, you'll feel right at home.


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## mtnwoman (Jul 23, 2011)

I do go on with more explanation, though. Usually something like, I'm not going there to socialize anyway, I'm going to get fed the word. Like a deer panteth for water, I thirst for Thee.

Or 'where there are two or more are gathered in my name, I am there amongst you'.

I know God is with me all the time. I go to church to get something for my spirit and sometimes I can actually give somebody 'something'. I can do that alone, but sometimes I need undergirding by others.


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