# Death in the garden. physical or spiritual?



## hobbs27 (Aug 27, 2014)

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, though shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou neatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

What do you think, is this a promise of physical death or spiritual death, explain , and thanks ahead of time.


----------



## StriperAddict (Aug 27, 2014)

Adam inherited the sin nature (and power of sin - as an entity, see Gen 4:7, a noun, not verb!) in his body, soul and spirit from the garden decision.  

This sin nature produced 'death' in the sense that he became 'spiritually dead' as a result of the fall, and this passed on to the entire offspring of Adam (us).

His body also became the house, so to speak, for the power of sin... and this is something significant, as all bodies - save the New Adam, Christ, will suffer decay as a result of the fall.

By faith in the cross, we apprehend the new man, and our old self is eradicated... the dead soul/spirit, as we have the righteousnes of Christ within... something we cannot "do" for ourselves.

Rom 6:1-6, 2 Cor 5:17

Also consider that Paul describes one woman "dead while she lives", as in 1 Timothy 5:6

I'll start there and let some of you theologians hash this out


----------



## StriperAddict (Aug 27, 2014)

Ahh, one more ... I'm feelin' a tad frisky today, as in  ...

Your acts of sin will never condemn you to "hot place" ...

but your identity (in Adam) will.

Anyone care to handle that, and the solution ??



I love the smell of spiritual pot stirrin' in the morning  


sorry hobbs - I'll go for a new thread if N.G. here


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 27, 2014)

StriperAddict said:


> Ahh, one more ... I'm feelin' a tad frisky today, as in  ...
> 
> Your acts of sin will never condemn you to "hot place" ...
> 
> ...



No problem. I enjoyed your reply thanks. I'll add to this later when time permits.


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 27, 2014)

Problem with relating this to a physical death is you would be placing the truth in Satan's hands and make God the liar, for God said, " In the day"....we know Adam physically lived past that day....and Satan said:

“You will not surely die, but, God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil”


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 27, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, though shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou neatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
> 
> What do you think, is this a promise of physical death or spiritual death, explain , and thanks ahead of time.



Good question. I don't think it is spiritual death. Man is spiritual. Man fallen and man saved  they are both spiritual creatures.  We all are going to physically die. So the only other answer is physical death.


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 27, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Problem with relating this to a physical death is you would be placing the truth in Satan's hands and make God the liar, for God said, " In the day"....we know Adam physically lived past that day....and Satan said:
> 
> “You will not surely die, but, God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil”




But did God say, " On the very day you eat of the fruit you will die"?


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 27, 2014)

StriperAddict said:


> Ahh, one more ... I'm feelin' a tad frisky today, as in  ...
> 
> Your acts of sin will never condemn you to "hot place" ...
> 
> ...



You talking apples and oranges plus other items of the harvest perhaps.  

Orange = The idendity in Adam is to be born again into an in reality relationship with Jesus ( said the second Adam) or to be baptized by water and some say by fire... which " fire" is said to represent the Holy Spirit in the name of Jesus.

The Apple in this case ( or "sin will never condemn you") is an item of the reformation whereby man understands that Jesus died for all sins, past, present and future, those known and those unknown by a believer and is saved once and for all intended definitions of what the reformers  made salvation to mean.

And so it goes in the minds of some men that the spiritually born again,(born again with the spirit that Adam possessed before the fall and now able to appreciate an intimate relationship with God through Jesus ) or simply christian "believers" said to be saved for believing in the redemptive work of God through Jesus, or more to the point to believe or have faith in the salvific work of Jesus ( his sacrifice on the cross) such an individual cannot lose salvation.  And therefore the reason for the abreviation of all this in the form of captial letters of the Greek alphabet or OSAS.

 Still  clear as mud  my fusia shirt wearing craker friend? How off am I?


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 27, 2014)

gordon said:
			
		

> Man fallen and man saved they are both spiritual creatures. We all are going to physically die. So the only other answer is physical death



 Then I want to challenge you on this, and expect you will challenge me, maybe you can show me something I am missing.





gordon 2 said:


> But did God say, " On the very day you eat of the fruit you will die"?



Yes.

“From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

Genesis 1:14 gives us the definition of the day, must be defined as that for which God created the sun, moon and stars , as signs and markers of days, weeks, months and years.

 Note that God told Adam and Eve " In the day you eat thereof, you will surely die." When Satan confronted Eve, he told her, " You will not surely die, but, God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil"
notice the direct correlation between " in the day you eat thereof, you will surely die" and " in the day you eat, you will know good and evil."


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 27, 2014)

StriperAddict said:


> Adam inherited the sin nature (and power of sin - as an entity, see Gen 4:7, a noun, not verb!) in his body, soul and spirit from the garden decision.
> 
> This sin nature produced 'death' in the sense that he became 'spiritually dead' as a result of the fall, and this passed on to the entire offspring of Adam (us).
> 
> ...



As I agree with most of this, I hope to show where this does not pertain to us....so be ready as this plays out.


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 27, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Then I want to challenge you on this, and expect you will challenge me, maybe you can show me something I am missing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have been brushing up on my calvinism. So I should be able to come up with a proven razor sharp answer. So to paraphrase my brothers:" What I think it mean is this:"

The word day does not mean a 24 hour period _all the time_. As in all does not mean all all the time. ( And besides some people have very slow metabolism.) So the word day does not mean "a day" all the time.

For example I can say in our or in my day people did not lock their door. 

So to narrow things down, day here in genesis means the very second of Adams fall until the time or the day Jesus came to minister and redeem the fallen and beyond where men first ate  of the fruit and continued to eat of the fruit. The focus of fallen man is good and evil, but the focus of a saved man is Christ and thus this is a restoration of the original relationship design of man to God and God to man.

If you what a fancy answer the word "day" in this case is a word ( one word) of prophecy, from the very lips of none other than the Divine. The prophecy contained the days of Abraham, Noah, Moses and the Hebrews,  up to ours and beyond including the days of Adam and Eve.

How's that?


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 27, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> How's that?



Very Good, and I shall prepare a rebuttal soon.


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 27, 2014)

Gordon, while I concede that " the day" can be taken metaphorically as it is in Gen. 2:5. It is also used literally as in Gen.1:14.

 So how do we determine its use in 2:17? I suggest by context. So lets look at that.

 Not only did God warn them that in that day they would die, but Satan also said in that day you will not die, but come to know good and evil. The in" the day" of both statements must be under the same context, so my question and point is----not only did they die that day, they also come to know good and evil----for that day they knew they were naked. They knew that very day, and by no means continued in their innocence.


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 27, 2014)

StriperAddict said:


> Adam inherited the sin nature (and power of sin - as an entity, see Gen 4:7, a noun, not verb!) in his body, soul and spirit from the garden decision.
> 
> This sin nature produced 'death' in the sense that he became 'spiritually dead' as a result of the fall, and this passed on to the entire offspring of Adam (us).
> 
> ...



This is a very interesting answer. Let me tear it apart. 

No but really I'm hoping people are focused on Jesus here, as I know we are and not simply to debate for debate's sake. 

So let me tear it apart in a loving way, you point of view.  

 Our sin nature does produce death. You are right. But not spiritual death. Just think about it.  The fact that we and our governments are willing to use a little bit of evil to fight evil, does produce physical death, but not spiritual death.

Fallen man is not spiritually dead, he is spiritually lost perhaps, but not spiritually dead. He needs to be born again which is available via God's grace... ( as you say I think.)

The minute man's tries to play God or guess what God might "think"  he makes himself and his brothers and sisters equal to the simple beasts or even simple objects for some reason. He turns into a predator, who is not fussy about preying on his own kind.

Wanting the world of good and Evil, living in the world of good and evil, there are perhaps many things we stopped hearing and seeing in the spiritual sense, ( as is proved by redemption where some hearing and seeing is restored).  It is difficult to know how  it came about exactly that man must physically die and  suffer from spiritual atrophy...   


Perhaps. Maybe... ??


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 27, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> This is a very interesting answer. Let me tear it apart.
> 
> No but really I'm hoping people are focused on Jesus here, as I know we are and not simply to debate for debate's sake.
> 
> ...



Now, Im in agreement with you, but not related to the spiritual death Adam had in the garden. We in this present day do not know spiritual death, but life through our savior Jesus Christ.


----------



## Israel (Aug 27, 2014)

I was alive apart from the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 27, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Gordon, while I concede that " the day" can be taken metaphorically as it is in Gen. 2:5. It is also used literally as in Gen.1:14.
> 
> So how do we determine its use in 2:17? I suggest by context. So lets look at that.
> 
> Not only did God warn them that in that day they would die, but Satan also said in that day you will not die, but come to know good and evil. The in" the day" of both statements must be under the same context, so my question and point is----not only did they die that day, they also come to know good and evil----for that day they knew they were naked. They knew that very day, and by no means continued in their innocence.



Just because they knew good and evil that day,  and for some dumb reason decided that it was shameful to be naked, ( my idea here is that they found themselves at odds, from being one in the Lord to two in mischief and rancor for the first time.  Giving got its first takeing. Perhaps.)

 From the point of view of creation to be male and female is to be the same man. From the point of view of testing the Creator by sinning  "I" becomes "we". Body and soul become seperate. So the fall not only injures the relationship between God and man and makes them seperated, but also seperated spiritually are  male and female, and man singly and we are told between the snake and eve.


I have always found this haunting;

"The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'

If in creation before the fall  Adam( and Eve) where "one' with God, as husband and wives are supposed to be one with each other or as Adam and Eve were one man ( seperate but one), then because God cannot die spiritually so Adam could not die by their union both spiritually or physically ( quickened spirit).

 However when Adam cheated on the relationship with our Lord,  the mud part of his creation and all of creation got an expiry date. The quickened part of man both spiritual and physical got a short wick and simply  the Holy Spirit failed to sustain it. Death ( physical) entered the world and as well spiritual atrophy.

Maybe... Maybe not....

I don't buy your context idea here. I don't think it applies. It is my understanding that Genesis is derived from texts put together about 300 BC. Folks back then knew that day did not mean day all the time.

I bet lots of people are saying Gordo is making this up as he goes... He does not know what he's talking about.... 

They might be right, yet in some ways to read Genesis in the context you suggest is to read it with one's mind in the "fall". To say that in genesis a day is a day, sunset to sunset, is  to view  it via legalistic seeing ( worldly seeing or apprehending with some amount of carnal outlook) and completely out of the context intended. 

As the saying goes to God a day is as a 1000 yrs, ( this is metaphorical) and I would assume that the meaning of a day in genesis is for in keeping with this, or more fluid than a legalistic interpretation of context. The right context of Genesis is the action and will of our Creator and the actions and will  of the first man, ( Adam and Eve.) And once more it was written by  prophets with devinely inspired hindsight and foresight and not lawyers. The context of a day then is what some might call metaphorical and has not bearing on proving that the spirit of Adam and Eve must of died, because Adam and his spouse were very much alive after the apple caper.

But more than this, because innocence was lost, because integrity was compromised, and the idea  that Adam and Eve became spiritually dead the day of their apple raid, it seems to me that Paul said of the Greek pagans that they were a very spiritual people. But.... they were lost...! They were in need of the Good News and being born again for the cross of our Jesus.

"Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: "People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious." Acts 17:22


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 27, 2014)

Israel said:


> I was alive apart from the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.



And the glorious conclusion to this:



 24 Wretched man that I am!Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 27, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> Just because they knew good and evil that day,  and for some dumb reason decided that it was shameful to be naked, ( my idea here is that the found themselves at odds, from being one in the Lord to two in mischief and rancor. Perhaps.)
> 
> From the point of view of creation to be male and female is to be the same man. From the point of view of testing the Creator by sinning  "I" becomes "we". So the fall not only injures the relationship between God and man and makes them seperated, but also seperated spiritually are  male and female, and we are told between the snake and eve.
> 
> ...



 We dont have to be in agreement for this to continue, but I am trying to keep your viewpoint in mind as we go, so far you have been consistent with many great men of the past and the tradition taught in the church. I commend you for that.





gordon 2 said:


> I don't buy your context idea here. I don't think it applies. It is my understanding that Genesis is derived from texts put together about 300 BC. Folks back then knew that day did not mean day all the time.


 I too have acknowledged this, but it is pretty clear in the context I compared...or atleast I think so.



gordon 2 said:


> I bet lots of people are saying Gordo is making this up as he goes... He does not know what he's talking about....



 I've got your back, just point them out cause I aint gonna put up with it. 



gordon 2 said:


> They might be right, yet in some ways to read Genesis in the context you suggest is to read it with one's mind in the "fall". To say that in genesis a day is a day, sunset to sunset, is  to my view legalistic seeing and completely out of the context intended.
> 
> As the saying goes to God a day is as a 1000 yrs, I would assume that the meaning of a day in genesis is for in keeping with this, or more fluid than a legalistic interpretation of context. The right context of Genesis is the action and will of our Creator and  the actions and will  of the first man, ( Adam and Eve.) And once more it was written by  prophets with devinely inspired hindsight and foresight. The context of a day then is what some might call metaphorical.
> 
> But more than this, because innocence was lost, because integrity was compromised, that Adam and Eve became spiritually dead the day of their apple raid. It seems to me that Paul said of the Greek pagans that they were a very spiritual people. But.... they were lost...!



Disagree about the context. will attempt to show in another way soon.

Disagree about the fruit being an apple---it must have been a fig because when they realized they were naked they covered themselves with fig leaves---closest thing available, just as I would do if found naked...

Agree about the greek pagans being spiritually lost and not dead. I will now go back to the good book and attempt to make another argument for spiritual death---I was just feeding on it a moment ago.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 27, 2014)

Interesting debate going on here. I only know when Adam sinned he lost his ability to have everlasting life regardless of physical immortality or eternal spiritual life. 
Why did God need to keep Adam from the "Tree of Life?"
How was it possible for them to do wrong if they didn't have any knowledge of good & evil?
It appears that after Adam lost his & our ability to have everlasting  life that without Jesus we will all die an eternal death. What kind of eternal death will lost people have, physical or spiritual?


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 27, 2014)

OK, I'll demonstrate the spiritual death of Adam with the death and resurrection of Christ as Paul did in the two adam doctrine. I am a stickler for every word of God is inerrant, therefore when it seems contradictory I know I must be missing something---so lets look at this. Bear with me as I demonstrate the difference in a spiritual death ie. seperation from God   and a physical death.

1corinthians 15:  But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death{spiritual death, seperation from God}, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive{ made spiritually alive and connected to God}. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits

If Adams death were physical then Christ would be the first to raise from the dead physically----problem! He wasnt, many were physically raised from the dead before Christ, I can think of the witch of endor raising Samuel right off hand.

 So it must have been a spiritual death and seperation from God that Jesus repaired for us, for spiritually we only know of life and not death but even after Christ resurrection we know of physical death.

 This also means that Christ had to become spiritually seperated from God and die the death curse of Adam...Remember this? " Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani?"

 The two Adam doctrine does not equate when considering a physical death.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 27, 2014)

Why did Jesus need to die a physical death on the cross if he only needed to receive a spiritual death, ie separation from God?


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Aug 27, 2014)

Man was originally created to be eternal. But the punishment was death. Time began and man started started ageing/dying. What Adam lost, Jesus how now regained. He was raised from death, death no longer holds any power over him. He was given an eternal spirit when he "received the promised Holy Spirit" Acts 2, so now he is eternal. Eve wanted to be like God, not to create things but to gain glory for herself, to rival God. We see this in her offspring. Every one called to serve God's people did just the opposite. They had the people serve them as if they were gods. Not Jesus, we should imitate his humility, although he was made in the image of God, he did not consider equality with God something to be siezed but made hiself a servant, being a man, realizing what man is for, to serve God, not rival, he humbled himself and was obedient, to the extent of the cross, therefore God exalted him and gave him a name above all others, that every knee should bow and confess that he is master to the glory of God the Father


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 27, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why did Jesus need to die a physical death on the cross if he only needed to receive a spiritual death, ie separation from God?



Matthew 12:39 But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet;

Matthew 16 The Pharisees and Sadducees came up, and testing Jesus, they asked Him to show them a sign from heaven. 2 But He replied to them, “When it is evening, you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red.’ 3 And in the morning, ‘There will be a storm today, for the sky is red and threatening.’ Do you know how to discern the appearance of the sky, but cannot discern the signs of the times? 4 An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and a sign will not be given it, except the sign of Jonah.” And He left them and went away.


John 20:30 Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

  The physical death and resurrection was a sign.


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 27, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> OK, I'll demonstrate the spiritual death of Adam with the death and resurrection of Christ as Paul did in the two adam doctrine. I am a stickler for every word of God is inerrant, therefore when it seems contradictory I know I must be missing something---so lets look at this. Bear with me as I demonstrate the difference in a spiritual death ie. seperation from God   and a physical death.
> 
> 1corinthians 15:  But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death{spiritual death, seperation from God}, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive{ made spiritually alive and connected to God}. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits
> 
> ...



Your getting too smart for me. The resurrection from the dead of   folk before Jesus' resurrection was not similar to Jesus'. The other folk would end up dead again. Right? Samual died, though he was raised. But Jesus is the first to not die again following his resurrection.  

Jesus provided for us to be born again spiritually speaking from the spirit we obtained from the fall, which did not die,, but which we inherit from our past, which is a spirit " all mixed up with no place to go." The spirit of the lost and of sinners is not dead, it is injured. It is blind, it can't hear, it mixes up what is just with what is oppressive... It is a blind man's spirit groping in the dark. But because it is blind, and sees little, it  does not mean it is dead.

What Jesus did is quicken again our spirit ( born again) so that it can receive the Holy Spirit and share with it. However our world is still a world of the fall... which is why there will be a general resurrection of the  physically dead at some point and they along with those living will get judged and the "white hats" will get to be with God again as per the original intent of creation.

Maybe...


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 27, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> Your getting too smart for me..........................
> 
> What Jesus did is quicken again our spirit ( born again) so that it can receive the Holy Spirit and share with it. However our world is still a world of the fall... which is why there will be a general resurrection of the  physically dead at some point and they along with those living will get judged and the "white hats" will get to be with God again as per the original intent of creation.
> 
> Maybe...


No, I'm not getting too smart for you. You have struck my track and quickly gaining on me, question is will you follow me to the tree, or decide I'm off game?


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 27, 2014)

Point the way. I'm by your side, for better or worse.   So we are headed to Christ. Point the way.

On this: 

Quote(This also means that Christ had to become spiritually seperated from God and die the death curse of Adam...Remember this? " Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani?")

It occurs to me that this is a sinful, or fallen man's complaint concerning his physical death at the very time of his imminent death!

Isn't it typical of man to blame Eli, Eli! why do you permit me to die? Why do you make me die? Why must I go through this? I don't want to die!? Why must I have such pain?

Yet the truth is that it is not Eli who is to blame for the original sin. So the saintly thing to say might be, "I forgive Adam and Eve, I forgive their trespass. I no longer have animosity toward them or with their children. 

???


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 27, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> Point the way. I'm by your side, for better or worse.



Yay!

 Lets observe Christs substitutionary death. Jesus died in place of man..

Isaiah 53: 4 Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

Romans 5: 6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

2Corinthians 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him

Galations 3:13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree


I think these verses support me that the death of Adam which is the focus of the resurrection could not be a physical death.

 If Christ died for us so that we would not die...then why do we physically die? 

 Christ died spiritually under the curse of Adam and was the first fruits to be resurrected spiritually so that we could not die spiritually, through Christ we have everlasting life---not physically but spiritually...O' death where is thy sting?

All of this to point to the resurrection so told of in scripture---Christ the first fruits and then "the dead"  think of how many times the bible refers to " the dead"---that was those that died under the curse of Adam in the old covenant, the spiritually dead, but we live in the new covenant, we dont know death {spiritually} only life and more abundantly for Christ substituted himself and pardoned us from the curse of Adam. 

I have to stop here tonight...        ole striperaddict missed out if he was looking to stir the spiritual pot. I bet he has some good things to add to this though.


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 27, 2014)

Yea, I'm tuckered out. Only thing is that I still think I'm righter than you. Good evening bros.


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 27, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Man was originally created to be eternal. But the punishment was death. Time began and man started started ageing/dying. What Adam lost, Jesus how now regained. He was raised from death, death no longer holds any power over him.



That's a very Athanasian response from an Arian.


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 27, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I think these verses support me that the death of Adam which is the focus of the resurrection could not be a physical death.



It was definitely physical death.  Read _On the Incarnation_ by St. Athanasius.




hobbs27 said:


> If Christ died for us so that we would not die...then why do we physically die?



Because we still have a mortal human nature.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 27, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> That's a very Athanasian response from an Arian.



Could you explain this in a little more detail as I don't see the connection?
Jesus was very quick to give all power to his Father. Jesus as a man was just following the prophesy provided by others before him from his Father. 
How does either view of who Jesus is take away from what Jesus did on the cross and how is it related to if Jesus died a physical death or spiritual death to redeem our sins?
If anything for God to allow Jesus to die a spiritual death, it would almost seem Jesus was not God. Otherwise how could God abandon Jesus for even 10 minutes?
For Jesus to die a spiritual death God had to forsake Jesus.
Remember Jesus prayer to his Father, Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 27, 2014)

I must say though I still get confused with physical death vs spiritual death, our physical resurrection, everlasting life in a renewed body, eternal death of non-believers vs eternal punishment, wages of sin death being physical or spiritual, and why was Adam kept away from the Tree of Knowledge.


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 28, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> It was definitely physical death.  Read _On the Incarnation_ by St. Athanasius.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And that is my point. Christ paid for your sins in a substitutionary death. 

The wages of sin are death.  If all this was physical, why do we still die since your sins have been excused?  I say because in actuality the death Christ substituted was the spiritual death, therefore spiritually we never die but have everlasting life.


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 28, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Yay!
> 
> Lets observe Christs substitutionary death. Jesus died in place of man..
> 
> ...




Quote: (Christ died spiritually under the curse of Adam and was the first fruits to be resurrected spiritually so that we could not die spiritually, through Christ we have everlasting life---not physically but spiritually...O' death where is thy sting?) End Quote.

I'm going to try to write this sentence how I think orthodox Christianity might write it or at least think it.

Christ died physically on the cross, making himself our sin nature or as Centerpin fan's use of the word mortal. He took on our mortal nature and died  as a consequence of this mortality in us. He died physically on the cross for our sins. Because of his physical resurrection he is the first fruit of the general resurrection. This resurrection will be a physical resurrection.

 We all have our cross, which is our lifespans in this world. We will all die as Christ did. But it is our hope through faith for the salvific work of God, that we will be raised physically one day as Christ was raised physically. And in this way we will be with Him as he is now.

Our choice in this world is to love God with all our heart,  with all of our spirituality and physical nature. Like David's craving for eternal life with our Lord, we pray that we will be to Him totally or with the makeup of our original creation, which is a quickened spirit with  both a spiritual and physical nature, which originally was probably not apprehended as separate. (Perhaps.)

I and Christians don't what to be separated from God's love ever again. It is not so much that we don't what to die, because Jesus teaches us that to give our lives as a sacrifice is not in vain. We want to be our robust selves with our redeemer and the Father, because we what to offer ourselves totally to Him and we what Him totally-- as in "all in all." And in this call all includes our physical nature and our spiritual nature which will be as one creation when we are raised again for the general resurrection.

Maybe... Perhaps....

The way I have come to assimilate salvation is not unlike how a child learns. I learn by following my Lord, by doing as per his examples. Livespan has its stages not unlike the stages of the cross (RC). Of course I have to be  redeemed from the world( via God's grace) and again become intimate with the real Holy Spirit, with the real  God of creation or the Father and  with the real God the Son or Jesus,  if I am to follow Jesus, his examples and his teachings which apply mostly for this world now.

 Yet, this is what Jesus tells me is my destiny---it is to be with the Father as he is with the Father. And one "day" I hope to be with all of Him, by being all of me---mud and all--- in Him. The general resurrection will provide for this.


----------



## gemcgrew (Aug 28, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, though shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou neatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
> 
> What do you think, is this a promise of physical death or spiritual death, explain , and thanks ahead of time.


When Adam sinned, he did not die physically and he did not die eternally. He died spiritually.

I also died in Adam. By nature, I have no access to God, no spiritual knowledge or ability.

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." (Romans 3:10-19)


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 28, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> When Adam sinned, he did not die physically and he did not die eternally. He died spiritually.
> 
> I also died in Adam. By nature, I have no access to God, no spiritual knowledge or ability.
> 
> "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." (Romans 3:10-19)



Drink another cup of coffee and have a second look at this:

 Quote(When Adam sinned, he did not die physically and he did not die eternally. He died spiritually.) End quote. 

Explain please.

And! concerning Romans 3:10-19.  In my view, it is not a case to show total depravity or spiritual death. Mary, the mother of Jesus, is said to be with the Lord, " the Lord is with thee". She as many others in scripture were favored by God. Noah and Moses, and the prophets were of mortal nature, or of the fallen world, but they were not spiritually dead. And Abraham... well he was of such spiritual faith as to be  our great grand pa regards spiritual faith.

The conscious of a simple man, unless it is impaired, knows right from wrong and the consequenses for sin, how it  further poisons his  poisoned world. He is not spiritually dead.

Those who morn or are struck and shaken by guilt are no spiritually dead.???


----------



## gemcgrew (Aug 28, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> Drink another cup of coffee and have a second look at this:
> 
> Quote(When Adam sinned, he did not die physically and he did not die eternally. He died spiritually.) End quote.
> 
> Explain please.


Would you have me to explain this day or in a thousand years?


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 28, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Would you have me to explain this day or in a thousand years?



True. There really is no rush.  Whenever you have a bit of time this side of the Jordan will be ok. . I got to get to work. My brow needs a workout. Later bros.


----------



## StriperAddict (Aug 28, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Gordon, while I concede that " the day" can be taken metaphorically as it is in Gen. 2:5. It is also used literally as in Gen.1:14.
> 
> So how do we determine its use in 2:17? I suggest by context. So lets look at that.
> 
> Not only did God warn them that in that day they would die, but Satan also said in that day you will not die, but come to know good and evil. The in" the day" of both statements must be under the same context, so my question and point is----not only did they die that day, they also come to know good and evil----for that day they knew they were naked. They knew that very day, and by no means continued in their innocence.


 
Keep in mind Satan is the father of lies, so saying "you shall surely not die" was, well, a LIE.
Spiritual death did take place, and as we inherited that,
"as in Adam ALL die",
our only hope and chance at redemption was, as gordon pointed out, our salvation from Christ Himself...
"so also in Christ shall all be made alive"...

I haven't read all the rest, so if I'm behind the times, stand by too


----------



## StriperAddict (Aug 28, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> The Apple in this case ( or "sin will never condemn you") is an item of the reformation whereby man understands that Jesus died for all sins, past, present and future, those known and those unknown by a believer and is saved once and for all intended definitions of what the reformers made salvation to mean.
> 
> 
> 
> Still clear as mud my fusia shirt wearing craker friend? How off am I?


 
Yes, the blood of Christ washes away all our ACTS of sin...
but it took the body of Christ on the cross to destroy the Adamic nature ...
which is why we celebrate both the body AND the blood during communion...

Off?  Naaa...  lets just dig deeper my friend


----------



## StriperAddict (Aug 28, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> Fallen man is not spiritually dead,


 
The Adamic nature, sinful spirit, fallen nature, sin nature, old man, all synonymous terms  ... had to be crucified, if we were to become the "new man" (in Christ), so I heartly disagree brother!  
Rom 6:
<SUP class=versenum>6 </SUP>knowing this, that our <SUP class=crossreference data-cr="#cen-NASB-28075L" value='(L)'>(L)</SUP>old <SUP class=footnote value='[c]' data-fn="#fen-NASB-28075c">[c]</SUP>self was <SUP class=crossreference data-cr="#cen-NASB-28075M" value='(M)'>(M)</SUP>crucified with _Him_, in order that our <SUP class=crossreference data-cr="#cen-NASB-28075N" value='(N)'>(N)</SUP>body of sin might be <SUP class=footnote value='[d]' data-fn="#fen-NASB-28075d">[d]</SUP>done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 
<SUP class=versenum>7 </SUP>for <SUP class=crossreference data-cr="#cen-NASB-28076O" value='(O)'>(O)</SUP>he who has died is <SUP class=footnote value='[e]' data-fn="#fen-NASB-28076e">[e]</SUP>freed from sin.  (freed from the power of sin... as an entity that once LIVED in our spirit man... now made alive 'cuz we died with Christ!

Si, Moi Capitan?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 28, 2014)

8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Two different trees or God wouldn't explain them as being two different trees. Now Adam was not to eat from the tree of knowledge but he could eat from the tree of life. That was until he sinned and was banished from the Garden. The tree of life was then guarded to keep anyone form eating from it.
It was Adam's sin that kept him from continuing to eat from the tree of life. He died a spiritual death that kept him seperated from God.


----------



## StriperAddict (Aug 28, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Now, Im in agreement with you, but not related to the spiritual death Adam had in the garden. We in this present day do not know spiritual death, but life through our savior Jesus Christ.


 
AMEN !!

That's our identity!


----------



## StriperAddict (Aug 28, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> What kind of eternal death will lost people have, physical or spiritual?


 
Both ... but you knew that already! 
==


Rom:5
<SUP class=versenum>*17 *</SUP>For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned <SUP class=crossreference data-cr="#cen-NASB-28065AH" value='(AH)'>(AH)</SUP>through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will <SUP class=crossreference data-cr="#cen-NASB-28065AI" value='(AI)'>(AI)</SUP>reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Our pre-Christ identity is an identity with death (see highlighted), and as we are 3 part beings, it was our spirit soul and body that is under the curse UNTIL the cross comes to light.
We cry "help!", God does the saving ... it doesn't get any better than that...
(Childlike faith ... for another discussion),
and then we are made whole AND holy in our souls and spirit - God birthing the new man, or new creature/creation.
The only part that we still suffer with is our body, as Paul is clear in Rom & that the entity of the power of sin still dwells there, and so we war/fight with those thoughts that come from it from time to time.
But rest assured, we no longer have, as some religious folk may claim, a sin spirit, or a "dual - natured" identity.  A house divided against itself cannot stand!

Ok hobbs, am I getting off the op?  I just think you raised a biggie and we ought to have encouragement about what Christ has done at the moment we said "HELP" ...

for by grace ...


Great thread


----------



## StriperAddict (Aug 28, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Yay!
> 
> Lets observe Christs substitutionary death. Jesus died in place of man..
> 
> ...


Because our Bodies are unredeemed ... they're gonna rot, sorry brother.  But no worries, just wait till you get your new clothing 



hobbs27 said:


> Christ died spiritually under the curse of Adam and was the first fruits to be resurrected spiritually so that we could not die spiritually, through Christ we have everlasting life---not physically but spiritually...O' death where is thy sting?
> 
> All of this to point to the resurrection so told of in scripture---Christ the first fruits and then "the dead" think of how many times the bible refers to " the dead"---that was those that died under the curse of Adam in the old covenant, the spiritually dead, but we live in the new covenant, we dont know death {spiritually} only life and more abundantly for Christ substituted himself and pardoned us from the curse of Adam. .


Can't add a thing 




hobbs27 said:


> I have to stop here tonight... ole striperaddict missed out if he was looking to stir the spiritual pot. I bet he has some good things to add to this though.


Hehehe ...  I always start with a lil stirrin, then try to understand the picture - with ya'll it's been good.

Looking forward to more...


----------



## StriperAddict (Aug 28, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> Drink another cup of coffee and have a second look at this:
> 
> Quote(When Adam sinned, he did not die physically and he did not die eternally. He died spiritually.) End quote.
> 
> ...


 
Gordon, keep in mind, the folks of the old covenant (even Mary... pre the cross) had to be "saved" just like us ....

by faith

"Abraham believed God, and it was accounted unto him for righteousness"  

Habbackuk adds (lousy speller am I) adds ... 
the righteous shall LIVE by faith.
(Also Romans 1:17 Galatians 3:11 )

The difference was that faith in the "seed" (Christ, ref. in Genesis 3:15) allowed a covering for sin for the pre-cross OT folks, while the cross _removes_ sin (from our old adamic dead spirit).

---
Later folks


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 28, 2014)

StriperAddict said:


> The Adamic nature, sinful spirit, fallen nature, sin nature, old man, all synonymous terms  ... had to be crucified, if we were to become the "new man" (in Christ), so I heartly disagree brother!
> Rom 6:
> <SUP class=versenum>6 </SUP>knowing this, that our <SUP class=crossreference data-cr="#cen-NASB-28075L" value='(L)'>(L)</SUP>old <SUP class=footnote value='[c]' data-fn="#fen-NASB-28075c">[c]</SUP>self was <SUP class=crossreference data-cr="#cen-NASB-28075M" value='(M)'>(M)</SUP>crucified with _Him_, in order that our <SUP class=crossreference data-cr="#cen-NASB-28075N" value='(N)'>(N)</SUP>body of sin might be <SUP class=footnote value='[d]' data-fn="#fen-NASB-28075d">[d]</SUP>done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
> <SUP class=versenum>7 </SUP>for <SUP class=crossreference data-cr="#cen-NASB-28076O" value='(O)'>(O)</SUP>he who has died is <SUP class=footnote value='[e]' data-fn="#fen-NASB-28076e">[e]</SUP>freed from sin.  (freed from the power of sin... as an entity that once LIVED in our spirit man... now made alive 'cuz we died with Christ!
> ...



What I meant was that folk who are not born again are still spiritual beings.  It is true that we are freed from this spirituality when we are born again. We "die" to our old nature carnal, or law nature, and put on Christ's. But we are still creatures in this world, which is still in a fallen state.


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 28, 2014)

StriperAddict said:


> Gordon, keep in mind, the folks of the old covenant (even Mary... pre the cross) had to be "saved" just like us ....
> 
> by faith
> 
> ...



Ah! I still have the old adamic spirit in my bones... I call him Art and other words on bad days. Art is short for Arthritis, gout, muscle sprains,   and sometimes not being truthful to save face. For example, I brought my new lawn tractor to the retailer for repair this week. It would not start. The mechanic frigged with it a 25% of an hour before he realized that I had the mowing deck lever in ON position, which does not permit the motor to start. I said, "No, I had it down." To which he said, " Ok lets turn the key with it down." And miracle of miracles it started like a P-35 mustang just out of the factory! 

I might be born again, but back bone taken by surprise can really  test my Lord's work in me.


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 28, 2014)

StriperAddict said:


> Gordon, keep in mind, the folks of the old covenant (even Mary... pre the cross) had to be "saved" just like us ....
> 
> by faith
> 
> ...



Yes, Mary said her savoir was Jesus I think. I'm not sure Mary actually sinned, but she did inherit Adam's curse like all of us. Jesus was her savoir, maybe not so much as remover of her personal sin. ( Mary was from a very spiritual family and more than not knew to repent of sin with the best of them and us. That is to ernestly regret sin and change.) He was her savoir because she would be restored to her origin with God-- by his removal of the Adamic curse and his resurrection. Maybe... 

(I'm am putting maybes on all I say, lest any man think I think myself  here a teacher.)

Now that Abraham  is said to be righteous because he believed God shows that his spirit was not dead. The part that believes in man is not his life of flesh which is just a puff of wind. It is spiritual man that believes. Adam's spirit was not killed for the fall, it just got stupid fast. Abraham's was just smarter than many.

I like this BJJ saying by  Saulo Rebeiro. I think it applies in some way to man's fallen nature.

"If you think, you are late.
If you are late, you use strength.
If you use strength, you tire. 
 And if you tire, you die."
                                      Saulo Rebeiro

Physically we are all still stuck with what Mr. Rebeiro said. But with enough faith and  for the grace of God we can run to win our race.

Perhaps...


----------



## StriperAddict (Aug 28, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> Ah! I still have the old adamic spirit in my bones... I call him Art and other words on bad days. Art is short for Arthritis, gout, muscle sprains, and sometimes not being truthful to save face. For example, I brought my new lawn tractor to the retailer for repair this week. It would not start. The mechanic frigged with it a 25% of an hour before he realized that I had the mowing deck lever in ON position, which does not permit the motor to start. I said, "No, I had it down." To which he said, " Ok lets turn the key with it down." And miracle of miracles it started like a P-35 mustang just out of the factory!
> 
> I might be born again, but back bone taken by surprise can really test my Lord's work in me.


 
Haha I love this!
And yes, there's something dead in our ol' bones,
cuz not even the devil is omnipresent,
and it does a number on us if we loose that heavenly perspective - 
Christ in you, _as_ you (too deep?  quoting a brother ... perhaps!)

Ahh to live the exchanged life!
What rest! What grace! 
What holy power - not I but ...


----------



## StriperAddict (Aug 28, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> Physically we are all still stuck with what Mr. Rebeiro said. But with enough faith and for the grace of God we can run to win our race.


 
In our behavior? Yes ... the race is on, and "behavioral sanctification" is underway from the starting line - 2 pieces of wood and nails...

Romans 6:19
I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in _further_ lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in *sanctification*.

But from that same place comes our finished work, an inner spirit *sanctification *never to be improved on again... 

Romans 6:22
But now having been (past action, completed action, with a resulting "state of being")  freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in *sanctification*, and the outcome, eternal life.

Here is probably one of the most incredible verses in scripture:
(_emphasis _added)

Heb 10:14
14 For by one offering _He has perfected for all time _those who are sanctified.


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 28, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> It was definitely physical death.  Read _On the Incarnation_ by St. Athanasius.



Have yet to read that, but boy did I find a jewel while researching Athanasius! Thanks for leading me in the direction. 

Athanasius  (ad 296-373) is quoted as saying,

" But if the Gentiles are honoring the same God that gave the law to Moses and made the promise to Abraham, and whose word the Jews dishonored,

Why are the Jews ignorant, or rather why do they choose to ignore, that The Lord foretold by the scriptures has shone forth upon the world, and appeared to it in bodily form, as the scripture said. What then has not come to pass, that the Christ must do?

 What is left unfulfilled, that the Jews should not disbelieve with impunity?

 For it, I say , which is just what we actually see, there is no longer king nor prophet nor Jerusalem nor sacrifice nor vision among them, but even the whole earth is filled with the knowledge of God, and the Gentiles, leaving their godlessness, are now taking refuge with the God of Abraham, through the Word, even our Lord Jesus Christ, then it must be plain, even to those who are exceedingly obstinate, that the Christ is come, and that He has illumined absolutely all with His light."

 Wow, what a preterist heretic. Actually I have read a lot of the early church fathers from Eusebius back that mention all prophecy are fulfilled but it is great ( to me) when I run across even more evidence.


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 28, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Have yet to read that, but boy did I find a jewel while researching Athanasius! Thanks for leading me in the direction.
> 
> Athanasius  (ad 296-373) is quoted as saying,
> 
> ...



If you find preterism in that, more power to ya.  Personally, none of the "isms" get me all that excited.


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 28, 2014)

A quick note as I re-read 1corinthians 15

"The dead" and verse 13 are the same as " those who have fallen asleep" in verse 18-20

Now it's interesting to me as they never say we too will die or we too will be resurrected from death--- as in all of them, for we know without argument that the resurrection of the dead is to be on the last day as Martha mentioned of her brother Lazarus.

What is said is very telling ( to me ) since I see the fulfillment of all bible prophecy and resurrection coming at the last day in 70-73 ad. Is this:

 Verse 51 Behold , I tell you a mystery: we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed 52 In a moment , in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Who's this we? He told them a mystery not about us but about them.


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 28, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> A quick note as I re-read 1corinthians 15
> 
> "The dead" and verse 13 are the same as " those who have fallen asleep" in verse 18-20
> 
> ...




Good grief Charlie Brown!  Your guessing! But that's ok...I guess.


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 28, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> Quote: (Christ died spiritually under the curse of Adam and was the first fruits to be resurrected spiritually so that we could not die spiritually, through Christ we have everlasting life---not physically but spiritually...O' death where is thy sting?) End Quote.
> 
> I'm going to try to write this sentence how I think orthodox Christianity might write it or at least think it.
> 
> ...




The question from me remains. If the wages of sin is physical death concerning the death of Adam, and Christ died to make the atonement so that man would not have to pay the penalty of sin, why do we continue to physically die?


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 28, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> Good grief Charlie Brown!  Your guessing! But that's ok...I guess.



Sorry, probably should leave some thoughts to myself. I do have a question though,  is it common for a Christian to read scripture an get a feeling of inward excitement that's hard to contain, or is it just me?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 28, 2014)

How does the view of death or spiritual death in these Bible verses allow or relate to one receiving eternal ongoing punishment? If one is dead and death really doesn't end one's afterlife  then death is ongoing everlasting punishment. Eternal meaning no everlasting punishment other than seperation from God/Heaven.
Does spiritual death allow for an afterlife of punishment?


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 28, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> The question from me remains. If the wages of sin is physical death concerning the death of Adam, and Christ died to make the atonement so that man would not have to pay the penalty of sin, why do we continue to physically die?



Because we still have physical bodies.  Death remains, but it has no power over us any longer.

"O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 28, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> The question from me remains. If the wages of sin is physical death concerning the death of Adam, and Christ died to make the atonement so that man would not have to pay the penalty of sin, why do we continue to physically die?



How can I say this. Hum. For now we must do as Christ did and suffer for a fallen world. The fulfillment of the " not suffering death" will be obvious at the resurrection.

 Or in another way our salvation is not that we are separated from the carnal now. We are not. Yet we now can fellowship with God one on one.  It is also that we will  again be raised  with physical bodies and back into beings incorruptible as per our original design. And this is our salvation.  We are not there yet, but on the "way" to there.

From  total intimacy with God to the fall to Noah, from Noah to Abraham, from Abraham to Moses, from Moses to Christ, from Christ to the destruction of the Jeruselm  temple, from Christ to "now", from now to total intimacy with God via the resurrection of the dead, as in body resurrection.

Maybe, perhaps....


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 28, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Sorry, probably should leave some thoughts to myself. I do have a question though,  is it common for a Christian to read scripture an get a feeling of inward excitement that's hard to contain, or is it just me?



Yes absolutely. That is exactly what happened to me when I saw and understood the kingdom for the first time. Scripture in my case did not shore up my belief. I had no belief in the kingdom other than groping that it was possibly there.

It is possible to be excited because something confirms or at first seems to confirm a deeply held belief but it is not the excitement as I indicated concerning the kingdom the first time it appeared to me as in existence in the hear and now.

It is better to be exited than depressed, that's for sure.


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 28, 2014)

Ok, I think I'm understanding your point better, but just so I'm clear, as scripture has made the connection that Jesus was the first fruits of the curse of Adam, therefore if Adams curse was a physical death, Jesus had to die a physical death......now comes the part I have a problem with, Christ died on our behalf, He paid the price of sin so that we wouldn't have to, so if the wages of sin is death , then Christ physically died that we wouldn't have to physically die.

 See how it doesn't fit in the equation? Christ redeamed us spiritually, He substituted the spiritual death that comes to us via sin, we die physically, but we will never be seperated from God as Adam was, and as Christ was on the cross, for He took our place , to be absent of the body is to be present with the Lord.

 As you so graciously say: maybe..perhaps.


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 28, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Does spiritual death allow for an afterlife of punishment?



I'll give you my opinion and invite others to give theirs 

Spiritual death lasted from Adams fall to the resurrection. Because of Christ we no longer know spiritual death. During the time of spiritual death there was an allowance of punishment in Hades, I point to the rich man that was in torments. But all that went away on the last day as Christ emptyex Hades and such people as the rich man could have faced a second death by being consumed in the lake of fire, while Lazarus would have been brought into the heavenly gates to be connected to God forever.


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 28, 2014)

Ten people reading this.


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 28, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Ok, I think I'm understanding your point better, but just so I'm clear, as scripture has made the connection that Jesus was the first fruits of the curse of Adam, therefore if Adams curse was a physical death, Jesus had to die a physical death......now comes the part I have a problem with, Christ died on our behalf, He paid the price of sin so that we wouldn't have to, so if the wages of sin is death , then Christ physically died that we wouldn't have to physically die.
> 
> See how it doesn't fit in the equation? Christ redeamed us spiritually, He substituted the spiritual death that comes to us via sin, we die physically, but we will never be seperated from God as Adam was, and as Christ was on the cross, for He took our place , to be absent of the body is to be present with the Lord.
> 
> As you so graciously say: maybe..perhaps.



Yes it does fit the equation. (I wish I had brains to understand ( memory) past the x 4 tables... I was in hospital when they did x5, x6 and x7. When I got back I was lost and have been counting pencil dots in my head ever since.) So lets see. 

The # 3 has three dots or one at the top, one at the bottom and one in the middle. It not only looks like 3, it's shape makes three. ( Follow so far?) Now six is 2 times 3. Or two dots at the top of the # 6 and two dots at the bottom and two dots in the middle. That makes six dots.  Now nine is three times three or 4x2+1, eight dots at the round part of the top of nine ( look at it as a square and add 2 dots at each corner) and one dot for the tail which makes 9 dots. So nine is the # eight folded on itself plus one dot.

Now all I can say is that your equation is short on dots. You need more dots at the end of it to make it work. Like plug in a few dots for the general physical resurrection of man or for X  and you will see that it evens out the equation.   

This: to be absent of the body is to be present with the Lord.

2ed Corinthians

Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord
-----------------
How about  if yes Paul will be in Heaven following his physical death and he will be with the Lord-- but also he expects the general resurrection besides being in Heaven.

Romans 8:23King James Version (KJV)

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Your making me work... 

Maybe heaven is not our last destination. Perhaps... Try it, plug in "redemption of  our body" in to your equation.  See what you come up with.

Perhaps, maybe.... there are more dots in the equation and this is it.?


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 28, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> Yes it does fit the equation. (I wish I had brains to understand ( memory) past the x 4 tables... I was in hospital when they did x5, x6 and x7. When I got back I was lost and have been counting pencil dots in my head ever since.) So lets see.
> 
> The # 3 has three dots or one at the top, one at the bottom and one in the middle. It not only looks like 3, it's shape makes three. ( Follow so far?) Now six is 2 times 3. Or two dots at the top of the # 6 and two dots at the bottom and two dots in the middle. That makes six dots.  Now nine is three times three or 4x2+1, eight dots at the round part of the top of nine ( look at it as a square and add 2 dots at each corner) and one dot for the tail which makes 9 dots. So nine is the # eight folded on itself plus one dot.
> 
> ...





So its not so much about the( y times x plus e divided by z) but the (=) ?  No matter what evidence I show it must equal a future physical ressurection. 

 If so, I understand, and Ive been under the weather a bit starting this morning, now I feel as Ive had two really hot bricks drove into me. One in the nose trying to escape to my ears and the other in my mouth and has settled in my throat sizzling. So I relinquish all direction of this thread to you until I return

 Dont worry , before many of you taste of death I shall return, And the end of this thread will come as I discuss the (=) !


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 28, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> So its not so much about the( y times x plus e divided by z) but the (=) ?  No matter what evidence I show it must equal a future physical ressurection.
> 
> If so, I understand, and Ive been under the weather a bit starting this morning, now I feel as Ive had two really hot bricks drove into me. One in the nose trying to escape to my ears and the other in my mouth and has settled in my throat sizzling. So I relinquish all direction of this thread to you until I return
> 
> Dont worry , before many of you taste of death I shall return, And the end of this thread will come as I discuss the (=) !



Cool. GWS I will provide you with in room TV while you recover. Here ya go:


----------



## StriperAddict (Aug 29, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Sorry, probably should leave some thoughts to myself. I do have a question though, is it common for a Christian to read scripture an get a feeling of inward excitement that's hard to contain, or is it just me?


Happens to me all the time. Being sensitive to the One's voice is a gift worth more than all the gold in the world 


hobbs27 said:


> A quick note as I re-read 1corinthians 15
> 
> "The dead" and verse 13 are the same as " those who have fallen asleep" in verse 18-20
> 
> Now it's interesting to me as they never say we too will die or we too will be resurrected from death--- as in all of them, for we know without argument that the resurrection of the dead is to be on the last day as Martha mentioned of her brother Lazarus.


Correct, but you still stuble over it as "happened already" ...


hobbs27 said:


> What is said is very telling ( to me ) since I see the fulfillment of all bible prophecy and resurrection coming at the last day in 70-73 ad. Is this:
> 
> Verse 51 Behold , I tell you a mystery: we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed 52 In a moment , in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
> 
> Who's this we? He told them a mystery not about us but about them.


This is for every believer. We will enjoy the reality of our new bodies - "we will be like Him for we shall see Him as He is" wether we die now, or when we get caught up in glory when that trumpet sounds.  
I guess we might split hairs over these prophecies, but I can see, given your take, where you might consider we ought to "stay physically" alive forever ... something that "yeah, IMHO" is not supported in scripture.  After all, if "it" occured, then Rev 1 would be fulfilled, "every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him", something that did not happen (yet), but will shortly.

Has God really sealed up this current world and created the "new heavens and the new earth"??    I think not, brother


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 29, 2014)

StriperAddict said:


> This is for every believer. We will enjoy the reality of our new bodies - "we will be like Him for we shall see Him as He is" wether we die now, or when we get caught up in glory when that trumpet sounds.



Will we see Him as he is when we physically die or when we get caught up?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 29, 2014)

I"m trying to picture how God seperated himself for those few hours from his Son on the cross. That must have been hard even for God. It really get's hard to figure out if one believes Jesus was a part of the same entity that he was seperated from.
I do feel like my daughters are a part of me but in a different way than most feel Jesus is a part of his Father.
In that respect the sacrifice of Jesus was also from his Father who had to seperate his love of his Son even if only for a few hours.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 29, 2014)

Any thoughts on the Tree of Life? 

22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 29, 2014)

StriperAddict said:


> Has God really sealed upthis current world and created the "new heavens and the new earth"??    I think not, brother



I think not also, matter of fact, I think that will never happen or at least it's not biblical.

 The heaven and earth that passed away was the old covenant, Jerusalem, and the temple. Research it if you don't believe me, it sounded crazy to me also when I first heard that because of my preconceived notions. And as you think this must be a problem to preterist I now recognize it as even a bigger problem for futurist, because of what Jesus said in Matthew 5: 18..... As a futurist thinking of heavens and earth as literal you're now faced with being under the curse of the law still.


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 29, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Any thoughts on the Tree of Life?
> 
> 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
> 
> ...



Yea the tree of life with God forever, only now Adam with the knowledge of good and evil, which he was not equipped to handle, would second guess God and try to wing it on his own--"forever!" and really mess things up. Nope not gonna happen!  No  no forever for you. Out of the garden you go young man and so your life forever life span... gets clipped.



Maybe.


----------



## StriperAddict (Aug 29, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I think not also, matter of fact, I think that will never happen or at least it's not biblical.
> 
> The heaven and earth that passed away was the old covenant, Jerusalem, and the temple. Research it if you don't believe me, it sounded crazy to me also when I first heard that because of my preconceived notions. And as you think this must be a problem to preterist I now recognize it as even a bigger problem for futurist, because of what Jesus said in Matthew 5: 18..... As a futurist thinking of heavens and earth as literal you're now faced with being under the curse of the law still.


 
The law has a job per the human element, not per tera firma, earth, per se.  As a tutor, it did its job bringing us face to face with our need of a Savior. Once sin recignized, ack'd, and dealt with, the law has no jurisdiction because dead men, of whom are we - crucified with Christ ... have called on Him and then been resurrected/seated with Him in heavenly places.  (That's God's perspective, and it's of more and abiding value than our finite minds can handle. )

On Matt 5:18, do you suggest Jesus has ended all "rule and authority" ?
per...
Then _comes_ the end, when He *delivers the kingdom to God the Father*, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 1 Cor 15:24-25
??

Sorry brother, you're whole issue with an already issued in kindom on earth has holes that would take me more time than not to argue.  I guess at this point, as this strays from point one op, I gotta let this go. It is of useless value to me at present, no offense intended


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 29, 2014)

StriperAddict said:


> The law has a job per the human element, not per tera firma, earth, per se.  As a tutor, it did its job bringing us face to face with our need of a Savior. Once sin recignized, ack'd, and dealt with, the law has no jurisdiction because dead men, of whom are we - crucified with Christ ... have called on Him and then been resurrected/seated with Him in heavenly places.  (That's God's perspective, and it's of more and abiding value than our finite minds can handle. )
> 
> On Matt 5:18, do you suggest Jesus has ended all "rule and authority" ?
> per...
> ...




My point on Matthew 5:18 is very simple and doesn't require a lot of thought.
 Either heaven and earth have passed, or not one jot or tittle in no wise has passed from the law.   

 If it is my theology that has holes in it, explain this verse in a simple way.
 Thanks.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 29, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> My point on Matthew 5:18 is very simple and doesn't require a lot of thought.
> Either heaven and earth have passed, or not one jot or tittle in no wise has passed from the law.
> 
> If it is my theology that has holes in it, explain this verse in a simple way.
> Thanks.



 I would say "heaven & earth" & New Heaven & Earth in some verses is referring to covenants or the nation of Israel.


----------



## StriperAddict (Aug 29, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> My point on Matthew 5:18 is very simple and doesn't require a lot of thought.
> Either heaven and earth have passed, or not one jot or tittle in no wise has passed from the law.
> 
> If it is my theology that has holes in it, explain this verse in a simple way.
> Thanks.


The law and the word of God will stay active until earth passess, by the Spirt of God, therefore the passage cannot conclude a "spiritual cessation" of heaven and earth having already occured.  The law being fulfilled in Christ doesn't work against itself in the matter, God is giving men time to call on Him, those who by the conviction of the Spirit & word of God would call on Him... that's part of the "everything is accomplished" which we wait for, before the end of the age.


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 29, 2014)

StriperAddict said:


> The law and the word of God will stay active until earth passess, by the Spirt of God, therefore the passage cannot conclude a "spiritual cessation" of heaven and earth having already occured.  The law being fulfilled in Christ doesn't work against itself in the matter, God is giving men time to call on Him, those who by the conviction of the Spirit & word of God would call on Him... that's part of the "everything is accomplished" which we wait for, before the end of the age.



You realize you just described nothing but preconceived notions and said nothing of the meaning of the verse, only what you assume it could mean or what you assume it can't mean? 


 I study verses like this with a few things in mind, to whom was it said, and to what context, and what it would have meant to the ears hearing it from Jesus' very mouth..... It's really a simple verse unless man lays his preconceived laws to it and twists it to fit.  I truly mean this in  loving way, and I don't claim to know everything, but I'm beyond man telling me they know better than Jesus' own words.


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 29, 2014)

StriperAddict said:


> .  I guess at this point, as this strays from point one op, I gotta let this go**



I'll be wrapping this up tonight with my final thoughts on the spiritual vs physical death, and I'm sure you will be dissapointed but what we have discussed here doesn't stray from the op at all. 

Peace.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 29, 2014)

Hobbs, In the book of Isaiah  it tells of a new Heaven & Earth where people will live longer than they do now but will still die.
If this is indeed a New Jerusalem, when will this take place or has it?
It sounds like God will return the earth to the pre-flood era when people lived longer than 100 years. People will work in this new place drinking wine from vineyards they keep.

Perhaps a new thread on the different meanings of "Heaven & Earth?"


----------



## StriperAddict (Aug 29, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> You realize you just described nothing but preconceived notions and said nothing of the meaning of the verse, only what you assume it could mean or what you assume it can't mean?
> 
> 
> I study verses like this with a few things in mind, to whom was it said, and to what context, and what it would have meant to the ears hearing it from Jesus' very mouth..... It's really a simple verse unless man lays his preconceived laws to it and twists it to fit. I truly mean this in loving way, and I don't claim to know everything, but I'm beyond man telling me they know better than Jesus' own words.


 
I don't have time to take the myriad of verses on this from Daniel to Rev to make my point. The op was of great intersest and introspection/scriptural digging, but by it you seem to have taken this to the preterist doctrine again.  You are using the one Matt verse to make a point, then with it start to do the same thing you're suggesting I'm doing - with notions unsupported, rather, twisted IMO.
Funny, but one could say I'm over-board with the subject of grace, while your be-all is preterist thought. Interesting! I'll stick with grace  

Peace to you also.


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 29, 2014)

StriperAddict said:


> I don't have time to take the myriad of verses on this from Daniel to Rev to make my point. The op was of great intersest and introspection/scriptural digging, but by it you seem to have taken this to the preterist doctrine again.  You are using the one Matt verse to make a point, then with it start to do the same thing you're suggesting I'm doing - with notions unsupported, rather, twisted IMO.
> Funny, but one could say I'm over-board with the subject of grace, while your be-all is preterist thought. Interesting! I'll stick with grace
> 
> Peace to you also.



Almost the entire bible is about the relationship between man and God, which involves covenants. Covenant eschatology or preterism is not based on a single verse or a single chapter, it's about the whole word of God understood in a sola scriptura manner. It rejects tradition over the actual words and their contextual meanings of God , The Father, The Son,The Holy Ghost, and the Apostles.

It lays out the map to where we are today in a covenant of Grace, which I am so thankful for, because I of all people am not worthy of it.

The Jews spoke of only two ages, the one they were in, ( mosaic law) and the one to come, ( the messiah and His grace)...the one to come , many times is said to be one of no end, the one they were in, was to end... Futurist take the prophecies foretold to the Jews about their end and the end of the old covenant and place it into our future and convince us that the church age will end, which is totally contradictory of the bible started with what the angel told Mary concerning the child she was pregnant with, sitting on the throne of David , and to His Kingdom would be no end----off top of my head so excuse me if words aren't exact but meaning is---

Sorry if it bores you, or agitates you, it has gave me a greater understanding of my Lord and brought me closer to Him through His marvelous grace......Maybe someone like myself is out there reading these answers to scriptures that traditional churches refuse to acknowledge, and they too will understand that the word of God doesn't contradict itself and is greater than man's understanding.


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 29, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Hobbs, In the book of Isaiah  it tells of a new Heaven & Earth where people will live longer than they do now but will still die.
> If this is indeed a New Jerusalem, when will this take place or has it?
> It sounds like God will return the earth to the pre-flood era when people lived longer than 100 years. People will work in this new place drinking wine from vineyards they keep.
> 
> Perhaps a new thread on the different meanings of "Heaven & Earth?"



Where in Isaiah, heaven and earth is mentioned many times.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 29, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Where in Isaiah, heaven and earth is mentioned many times.



Starting at Isaiah 65:20 and on a bit. People will build houses and inhabit them. In this place people will not build or plant for others.
I was just trying to figure out the time and place of this new heaven and earth.


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 29, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, though shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou neatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
> 
> What do you think, is this a promise of physical death or spiritual death, explain , and thanks ahead of time.



I was waiting for your  wrap up on the question. What do you think?

If I understood correctly, your view is that the promise was one of spiritual death.  In any case.  The genie is in the bottle for a while I guess.  I will leave a stopper if someone is willing to use it as a cap. I like the color of this one.


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 29, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Starting at Isaiah 65:20 and on a bit. People will build houses and inhabit them. In this place people will not build or plant for others.
> I was just trying to figure out the time and place of this new heaven and earth.



Art, there is no doubt in my mind that anytime the new heavens and the new earth is mentioned in the bible it is referring to the new covenant. The old heavens and old earth being the old covenant and the Jew only spoke of the one they were in, and the one to come...the one to come being eternal or without end.

 You can parallel a lot of Isaiah with Revelation and it is all written in apocalyptic language, which means I have to read, pray, research, read, pray , and research some more to get a good understanding when compiling the similarities of Isaiah and  Revelation. 

 Have you ever read or heard of John L Bray book, " Matthew 24 fulfilled"? He's a partial preterist but makes some outstanding points on the new heaven and earth. I believe you would really enjoy the book.


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 29, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> I was waiting for your  wrap up on the question. What do you think?
> 
> If I understood correctly, your view is that the promise was one of spiritual death.  In any case.  The genie is in the bottle for a while I guess.  I will leave a stopper if someone is willing to use it as a cap. I like the color of this one.>



I love RC Sproul, I just wish he wasn't so charismatic. 

I'm getting to it, the end is near. It is at hand. You can tell the others this, so they may comfort themselves with those words.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 29, 2014)

I must beat someone else with this video:


----------



## Israel (Aug 29, 2014)

Being made new in spirit by the life of the Lord Jesus Christ's dwelling in our hearts by faith, has an outworking, no? 
Being alive in spirit does not mean apprehending all of life in our minds, yet, or does it?
Adam went from life to death.
We have gone from death, to life, have we not? 
I know Adam's experience, perhaps not of life fully yet, but of death; and I don't doubt we all do to some extent.
We have, in some way, like "an" Adam, come to say "OK, I have seen enough of death...I am convinced...I cannot undo what you proclaimed to me in my disobedience" You said I would toil, and I do...you said there would be weeds, and there are (I tried Roundup and Lasso, and atrazine, you said I would eat my bread by the sweat of my brow and all the air conditioning doesn't undo it...I still labor endlessly...I give up!") 
"I accept your judgment of me!"

Is this not what beholding the one made a curse for us is?
The one who became like us to show us?
The one who when lifted up from the earth drew me, to that place where I finally saw the law's awful justice rendered...the one whom through the law...died to the law?
But, wait.
I find when I stop squirming and coming up with excuses..."I am the man!" Christ is presented to me, not as merely the end...but the beginning, by the resurrection to new life?
By accepting the righteous judgment upon (me) the old, I become new?
This is why Paul pinned all his hope on the resurrection, let all his faith rest upon the truth of Christ's being raised.
No man has faith, let alone the faith of the Son of God, apart from this revelation...of the Christ being alive.
We seem to struggle with the simultaneous-ness of it. The acceptance of the righteous requirements of the law in ourselves (our own death)...and the very plain manifestation of all hope by the revelation of the resurrection of our Lord.
Only the Lord can occupy the places this question leads "Did I repent first, and then have faith to see the Lord...or did I see the Lord...and that gave me "confidence" in the repentance"?
Suffice it to say, for my part, it is all of the Lord. All and every 'bit' a gift. 
But, now, to our minds. Christ alive to us now in spirit (and our spirit), breaks through the barrier once impregnable, to enlighten our minds. Minds previously informed, formed, convinced...of the carnal, temporal means of understandings. We are, to Adam...in one sense..."going back"...learning what life means...real life...and in that also now clearly seeing where we became complicit with death...and all that that means. 
We become aware, "unignorant" of schemes, we become aware of the seemingly subtle, (though, perhaps, less so) as we progress with rebellion and its contrast with fellowship, one a usurping by desire, one a desire to be "with"...and not care at all to replace. One very much being death...the other...our eternal birthright of delight. One might even argue that all our previous experience is necessary to this precise point...desired by God at the first (and always and only) to be with us, in us, but having the need for us to forever be disabused that such a closeness would lead to the presumption of assuming his place. A growth. From the child's understanding that putting on Daddy's shoes and clomping down the halls is OK, but must and will never be tolerated should that child greet returning daddy at the door with the false conviction "I am the daddy now" and slamming the door in his face. 

A child cannot bear more than he is able, and the child learns to delight he is not the one he may so want to be like...it's enough...far more than enough, for the child to be "like" the father...rejoicing in he who sits at the head of the table.
As the Father's joy is in his child. All joy, without any concern foreign born in the saying of this "The Father is greater than I".

Once we were alive to this, completely. Simply. The greater. We were little, and not even troubled by being so small. Precious. Remarkably vulnerable, weak, and needy. And unashamed of need.
To this we are being restored, even in our minds...how a man may grow in Christ, with Christ, even as Christ, from sheep to lamb, stretching forth of the hands to be carried...where we would not go.


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 29, 2014)

My opinion on THE END From Adam to Christ.

The points made that Adams death was spiritual are very important to understanding what Christ has done for us. My arguments that it must have been spiritual come from these points.
1. God said, " for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die"...but we know Adam continued physically living for nearly a millenium.

2. Satan said, " in that day you will not die but come to know good and evil"  That liar was wrong that Adam would not die in that day, but he got the other part right and it was indeed in that day for God so said before he ousted Adam from the garden---so if one came that day so must have the other...Genesis 3:22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. 
3. Christ is the first fruits of Adams curse---Adams curse was seperation from God through sin--  Others were resurrected from the dead physically, Samuel and Lazarus just to name two, but as Adam died spiritually in the garden and become seperated from God, Jesus took on our sin, mine and yours and became seperated from God{ died spiritually}, He must have died spiritually to make Pauls equation of the two Adams work out---see we still die physically but through Christ death and resurrection he brought us back to God, no longer are we seperated from God, for Christ .

Throughout the entire old covenant man was seperated from God because of sin, and even if they lived the law perfectly they had sin on them from Adam. The Old Covenant being a physical covenant of a land, a people, a temple, and high priests and scribes was the old heaven and old earth.
 Isaiah 1:2 Listen, O heavens, and hear, O earth; For the LORD speaks, "Sons I have reared and brought up, But they have revolted against Me.
Deuteronomy 32:1  Give ear, O heavens, and let me speak; And let the earth hear the words of my mouth.
Whatever your beliefs this is not a literal heaven and earth  ^^^^

There was an end coming to that old heaven and earth and a new heaven and earth was coming down...Considering these are covenants like I do, when would the new heaven and earth come?

 At his coming

 Christs atonement..no one denies the atonement of Christ being the perfect sacrifice brought us salvation and seperated us from sin which brought us to God. Amillenials and postmillenials realize the kingdom has come but they mistakenly put it at the cross, or some at the pentacost.

 The atonement in the old covenant for the salvation of Israel went through phases. 
1. High priest killed the sacrifice
2. entered the most holy place
3 presented the blood
4 came out of the holy place to announce the acceptance and salvation : Leviticus 9:22

Christs atonement

1. He made the sacrifice = cross
2. entered the most holy place = ascension
3. presented the blood to God and was accepted as the perfect lamb without blemish
4. Came out, came back and brought salvation 70 AD---Hebrews 9:28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

 If not for his coming back a second time we would not have salvation

The Old Covenant was still in effect until he returned

Paul continued to worship in the temple as his fathers---the temple within man had not yet come, the temple in Jerusalem was still available for the Jew. This Paul did answer on the charge of heresy.

Acts 24:11 since you can take note of the fact that no more than twelve days ago I went up to Jerusalem to worship. 12 Neither in the temple, nor in the synagogues, nor in the city itself did they find me carrying on a discussion with anyone or causing a riot. 13 Nor can they prove to you the charges of which they now accuse me. 14 But this I admit to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets;

The entire prophecy of Revelation is about the coming of the kingdom in its fullness, the coming of salvation, and the new heaven and earth or the new covenant. Its known as the unveiling of Jesus Christ, its the introduction to the new covenant in which we live, the age without end!

 Its about the destruction of the old world, in which people like Paul would no longer be led to worship in the physical temple in Jerusalem for it would be destroyed by fire and brimstone. Its about Christs return and Him standing at the door of the church, about Him being in the midst, about Him ..Matthew1:23 "BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which translated means, "GOD WITH US."

 God is with us, for we are new covenant believers reconnected to God by the Grace Christ has bestowed upon us.  Salvation is here --for Christ has come a second time.

Now but..but...What about 1 Thessalonians 4:17? Surely that means a future physical resurrection doesnt it? Absolutely not!

17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Note: This is a letter of comfort to the church in Thessalonia...It was written to them and for them, we get to read it to see what they were going through. They knew Christ was coming soon, for that was the message, but they were growing weary that his return seemed delayed---in their time, they were already growing weary. But Paul reassures "them" that "we" who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them{the dead} in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air... They would be caught up in the air...but where is that? The word air has two greek roots. the first is ouranos, which is atmospheric air  matt. 6:26; 8:20; 13:32, where the birds fly or higher. The word Paul uses is a noun aer  according to strongs 109, it comes from the greek root verb aemi meaning "to breathe unconsciously, ie respire; by analogy to blow...which can be translated as "the eternal breathing air within you and that within our immediate proximity.

 In other words the so-called rapture is totally debunked when researching the correct greek terminology.

 So we shall always be with the Lord    Bang! how great it is that everlasting life through the redemption of Christ and His return on the clouds to retrieve the dead and bring salvation we  will never spiritually die and be seperated from God as Adam and the old covenant jews were!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Paul tells the readers{ since they were growing weary} Comfort one another with these words.  What a misreable lie and trick it would have been to give these people a false hope if it were not to come in their time but thousands perhaps millions of years later.

 God Bless each of you for putting up with me, Ive really enjoyed the conversation and if you want more study on this or read more in depth how all this ties in together I suggest two books

The Greater Jesus by: John Noe
And especially: We shall meet Him in the air, The wedding of the king of kings by: Don K Preston.
Or just read and study the Holy Bible and hold those words above all men.


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 30, 2014)

Ah. Thanks.  Interesting.  The word Aer has a lot of...pivot in your view. 

How about this since we have this: " "the eternal breathing air within you and that within our immediate proximity." (as you say it means), so we get rid of the churches, the denominations ( we are the temples), and get this-- the old God inspired Scripture, Old and said New. We don't need them, because the children we bring to the world are not to the world where God must reveal Himself through scripture or the church. We are born to the aer or where ""the eternal breathing air within you and that within our immediate proximity." We no longer have need of anything separate from the world said inspired anymore--everything is! The world is indeed new and so is heaven! I don't know why you bothered even explaining your view. I mean... aer to you is the aer to me. I think?

Great! More coffee.


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 30, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> Ah. Thanks.  Interesting.  The word Aer has a lot of...pivot in your view.
> 
> How about this since we have this: " "the eternal breathing air within you and that within our immediate proximity." (as you say it means), so we get rid of the churches, the denominations ( we are the temples), and get this-- the old God inspired Scripture, Old and said New. We don't need them, because the children we bring to the world are not to the world where God must reveal Himself through scripture or the church. We are born to the aer or where ""the eternal breathing air within you and that within our immediate proximity." We no longer have need of anything separate from the world said inspired anymore--everything is! The world is indeed new and so is heaven! I don't know why you bothered even explaining your view. I mean... aer to you is the aer to me. I think?
> 
> Great! More coffee.




 Gordon, Im not sure, you havent said that I know of, but I assume you lean amillenial...or postmillenial? 
 Either way, here's a free online book, you and probably others will really enjoy: http://raptureless.com/

"First Thessalonians 4:17 says that we will meet the Lord in the air. Where is the air? According to the Greek root word translated as "air," this is a reference to the air that surrounds us on the earth. Many have taken this to mean that we will meet the Lord in the sky, but actually, there is less and less air the higher one goes. It makes more sense that we would meet Him here, in the atmosphere. "


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 30, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Gordon, Im not sure, you havent said that I know of, but I assume you lean amillenial...or postmillenial?
> Either way, here's a free online book, you and probably others will really enjoy: http://raptureless.com/
> 
> "First Thessalonians 4:17 says that we will meet the Lord in the air. Where is the air? According to the Greek root word translated as "air," this is a reference to the air that surrounds us on the earth. Many have taken this to mean that we will meet the Lord in the sky, but actually, there is less and less air the higher one goes. It makes more sense that we would meet Him here, in the atmosphere. "



Thanks.


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 30, 2014)

Here's a smarter  "by far" mans view of the same content we've discussed using scripture to support....stuff just keeps coming at me about this topic:


In this book, "The Cross and the Parousia of Christ" (1987) Max R. King makes some keen observations about the relationship between the "natural" as it pointed forward to the "spiritual" (I Cor. 15:46) aspect of fulfillment. King writes:

 "Fleshly Israel is set forth as a temporary (parenthetical) arrangement between Adam and Christ, or between the promise and the fulfillment. By design of God, Israel "according to the flesh" was not the ultimate meaning of the Abrahamic promise. It is our contention that the Abrahamic covenant was essentially ONE COVENANT, having an earthly aspect that served as a shadow of the heavenly or spiritual state that would be realized in Christ. In the words of Paul, that which was first was the natural or earthly, and afterwards that which is spiritual or heavenly (I Cor. 15:46).

 Therefore, Israel's receiving of the law at Sinai, and their inheritance of earthly Canaan was a temporal arrangement that point to the ultimate spiritual fulfillment of the Abrahamic promise. As seen in Hebrews 11:9-16. Abraham looked beyond the earthly to the heavenly inheritance, understanding the latter as the true meaning of the promise. Paul argued that "if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise, but God gave it to Abraham by promise (Gal. 3:18). Therefore, "the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect (Gal. 3:17). According to Paul, the law "was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made" (Gal. 3:19).

 The purpose, then, of the literal earthly Torah age was to bring all humanity to Christ (the promised seed) (Gal. 3:24), whom Paul refers to as "the second man from heaven" (I Cor. 15:47-49). The earthly, Old Covenant aeon served to demonstrate the weakness and inadequacy of the flesh (Rom. 7:7-25) in order that "the promise" might be obtained in the realm of the Spirit, i.e. the New Covenant creation through the resurrected Christ. Hence, the Abrahamic promise proved to be unattainable by his fleshly seed in their Old Covenant mode of existence. God knew from the beginning that such would be the case. What then, was the purpose of this temporal, parenthetical age? If the promise could not be achieved under the earthly conditions of the Old Testament economy, why was it brought into existence? It is apparent that this was one of Israel's leading questions to Paul who championed the Torah-free gospel as the true fulfillment of Israel's hope. "Why hast thous made this thus?", was Israel's question, if in the end Israel turns out to be a vessel of dishonor (Rom. 9:18-23). Paul's answer to this question is summarily given in the statement, "to bring us to Christ" (Gal. 3:24).

 Through the aeon of the law, the natural man was brought to see his total inadequacy in terms of "flesh" in order to see the need for becoming a "spiritual man" through death and resurrection with Christ, a man of absolute faith and trust in the power of God in obtaining the promise, Israel could not attain to the high plateau of life and righteousness inherent i the promise by means of "the flesh" anymore so than Abraham was able to receive the "son of promise" by means of "the flesh" i.e., by a course of action of his own strength. That is the meaning of Ismael's being born "after the flesh" in contrast with Isaac's being born "after the Spirit". "After the Spirit" refers to what occurred in the birth of Isaac, according to the power of God beyond the strength of Abraham" (Gal. 4:21-31). (p. 134-135).


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 30, 2014)

Things come to me also. 

This:   Quote: {The word Paul uses is a noun aer according to strongs 109, it comes from the greek root verb aemi meaning "to breathe unconsciously, ie respire; by analogy to blow...which can be translated as "the eternal breathing air within you and that within our immediate proximity.}


Personally when I read this in the context of what's being described: (1 Thessalonians 4:17  Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.) two things come to my mind from  the two words  caught up and the three words in the air. 


These to my mind are figures of speech. Back to this later. Must run...now. Ok so I'm no linguist and I don't know if Paul used language in this way or not but might mean "what's going on". Maybe, perhaps.... So to meet in the air, is to be caught up with the events as they are happening... Maybe.


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 30, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> Things come to me also.
> 
> 
> These to my mind are figures of speech. Back to this later. Must run...now.



look forward to it...


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 30, 2014)

Somehow as much as I read in the Bible and as much as I try to see resurrection, Heaven, & eternity as just spiritual, I can't shed my Baptist upbringing. I've always believed Adam died physically and spiritually and Jesus died the same way to save me physically and spiritually as in a spiritual/physical resurrection.
Hobbs, your beliefs answer most of my questions, using verses, better than my beliefs. Such as dying, resurrecting, and going to Heaven at the time of physically dying vs coming back for a body. Physically dying but spiritually living an eternity. Is everlasting life only spiritual? 
Either Heaven is spiritual or it physical. If spiritual then I certainly don't need to return to the Earth for any type of body. I have always believed Jesus' death & physical resurrection was more than symbolic to show the locals why he died. I've always believed my resurrection would be like the one Jesus had.
Now tying the two beliefs of a spiritual kingdom with a physical kingdom is confusing and I must dwell on and study on for answers.
As it is today I must say I believe Adam died spiritually when he sinned. The other questions I have, I don't know. 
I do believe after this discussion that death is everlasting and non-believers die when they die. Believers receive everlasting life. I'm just not sure when that starts and if it is spiritual and/or physical.


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 31, 2014)

Preconceived beliefs are hard to overcome, but when things don't add up you must study, cause God's word is perfect.

Probably the biggest problem I have with the physical church today is their unwillingness to answer the tough questions...when I started asking about the rapture and end times in the church I was told to leave it alone, it didn't matter, and it would just cause division in the church.
 God's word doesn't cause division...man does.


----------



## gemcgrew (Aug 31, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Preconceived beliefs are hard to overcome, but when things don't add up you must study, cause God's word is perfect.
> 
> Probably the biggest problem I have with the physical church today is their unwillingness to answer the tough questions...when I started asking about the rapture and end times in the church I was told to leave it alone, it didn't matter, and it would just cause division in the church.
> God's word doesn't cause division...man does.


The word of God is a dividing sword (Hebrews 4:12).

Hobbs, what compels one man to leave it alone and another can't rest until answered?


----------



## Israel (Aug 31, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> The word of God is a dividing sword (Hebrews 4:12).
> 
> Hobbs, what compels one man to leave it alone and another can't rest until answered?


Maybe some have been moved to ask...just how "good" is the good in the good news?
Maybe someone won't let them settle for less?


----------



## gemcgrew (Aug 31, 2014)

Israel said:


> Maybe some have been moved to ask...just how "good" is the good in the good news?
> Maybe someone won't let them settle for less?


For goodness sake.


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 31, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Preconceived beliefs are hard to overcome, but when things don't add up you must study, cause God's word is perfect.
> 
> Probably the biggest problem I have with the physical church today is their unwillingness to answer the tough questions...when I started asking about the rapture and end times in the church I was told to leave it alone, it didn't matter, and it would just cause division in the church.
> God's word doesn't cause division...man does.




And so did you remove yourself from the "physical church today" and cause a division? Just curious?
---------------


Ok so I don't know if you have witnessed my post on what might be the other definition of "air"?
(1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.)

You indicated two possible meanings for the word "air". Quote{The word air has two greek roots. the first is ouranos, which is atmospheric air matt. 6:26; 8:20; 13:32, where the birds fly or higher. The word Paul uses is a noun aer according to strongs 109, it comes from the greek root verb aemi meaning "to breathe unconsciously, ie respire; by analogy to blow...which can be translated as "the eternal breathing air within you and that within our immediate proximity.} end quote.


I propose another one as well.   The word cloud is metaphorical, I think you would agree. It  means, as per its type in scripture, that God is about to do something or is doing something significant, or it is a precursor that God is doing or is about to do something significant. 

Now since cloud is metaphorical in the sense applied by Paul, so is the word air. 

So let me re-write the sentence as to the meaning I suggest.  " Then we who are living will ( we here are believers, diciples, saved, who are alive etc ), as well as the resurrected saints ( those have died physically in Christ and now resurrected) , will all witness and be on  Jesus' side ( of his party) and be part of what Jesus is about to do. 

I hope you grasp this, not with the clinching of your hand, but grasp as a metaphor for capture by the mind or reason.

I might as well re-write as per Strongs idea on aer.

 aer ( Strongs) :"to breathe unconsciously, ie respire; by analogy to blow...which can be translated as "the eternal breathing air within you and that within our immediate proximity.

air: (Gordo ) Air is a synonym of day, as in on that day the saints will know  generally what is about to take place, (  or then they will know "what's in the air") or what is generally going to take place next regards our Lord settling matters once and for all with the beast( metaphor) or those who worshipped and took to siding ( metaphor) with their false God(s) and their false natures. Proximity between Jesus and believers is possibly the saints knowing the general will of God in significance and action on this day and might be what Strong was "driving"(metaphor) at.


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 31, 2014)

Gordon, 
 Very good. We both agree about what it does not mean. And you are correct, it could be metaphorical, also the clouds are used to describe God moving or traveling. In the OT he traveled in the clouds. In the New Testament Jesus used the term to show his diety.

 My main concern with putting this into the future..our future is whatever it was Paul was talking about, it was for the comfort of those wearily awaiting in that day, something was suppose to happen for them.

 I suspect the return of Christ to announce the acceptance of the atonement and bring salvation to Many, and to put an end once and for all to the old covenant....I actually just realized Paul remained a practicing Jew, worshipping in the temple as did his father's dduring this study. To me this proves the 40 years between the cross and the temple destruction was a transitional era with both covenants in effect ...awaiting the end and final consummation of the old.

Did I seperate myself from the physical church today? Sadly , yes. I miss her so much, but have not been able to go back for a while....It's a long story, but let's just say my church put me in a leadership position in which I had to deal with all the ugliness most people never see...It was heart breaking to me, and I could use and appreciate prayer to help me find a new home. Thanks.


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 31, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Gordon,
> Very good. We both agree about what it does not mean. And you are correct, it could be metaphorical, also the clouds are used to describe God moving or traveling. In the OT he traveled in the clouds. In the New Testament Jesus used the term to show his diety.
> 
> My main concern with putting this into the future..our future is whatever it was Paul was talking about, it was for the comfort of those wearily awaiting in that day, something was suppose to happen for them.
> ...



Don't forget that there is a tradition with jews, and it can be found in scripture somewhere, whereby if they are without the temple, or in exile, they can break bread as  sacrifice. 

I could possibly make an argument that the old covenant is still in effect for some and therefore the destruction of the temple was basically sending the Hebrews into exile again. They had suffered this a few times before. They are still to that covenant.

I could possibly find cause that some Christians , although they are in Christ, practice their faith from a carrot and stick motivation and are said carnal or immature. They are perhaps still in the law, because they show greater respect for fear and their spiritual egos, in lieu of love motivated behaviors. They are guarded regards the teachings of Jesus...having arguments that they might or might not work in there "this old world."

I have known people who have judged congregations and denominations by first impression from the remarks of the ushers, or some pastor reply or sermon. That kind of judging is not reliable as an assessment of "all the problems and short comings" of the church. I'll be direct, as a prayer is direct, more than not "you" are the problem! in such cases.

Most churches, congragations, today are willing to answer questions. Some answers may be way out there, some not.

And whoever offered this advise was a bit spot on.  Quote{when I started asking about the rapture and end times in the church I was told to leave it alone, it didn't matter, and it would just cause division in the church.} end quote.

I would like to offer this as well. End times, pre, post, pret, sideways, unsidedown, it might not really matter in the grand scheme of salvation for now. That it was or will be, we will know when we get there or to heaven. In the mean time I will pray that every blessing you hope for and every blessing you know nothing about, that they all be given to you in Christ. Reciprocate I need even more than this some days.  We all need to practice patience with others and ourselves in a loving kind of way.

Blessings bros.


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 31, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> Don't forget that there is a tradition with jews, and it can be found in scripture somewhere, whereby if they are without the temple, or in exile, they can break bread as  sacrifice.
> 
> I could possibly make an argument that the old covenant is still in effect for some and therefore the destruction of the temple was basically sending the Hebrews into exile again. They had suffered this a few times before. They are still to that covenant.,



I would be interested in participating in that discussion someday if you decide to raise it.. 
,





			
				 Gordon said:
			
		

> I could possibly find cause that some Christians , although they are in Christ, practice their faith from a carrot and stick motivation and are said carnal or immature. They are perhaps still in the law, because they show greater respect for fear and their spiritual egos, in lieu of love motivated behaviors. They are guarded regards the teachings of Jesus...having arguments that they might or might not work in there "this old world."


Too many of our brethren burden themselves with OT law in this glorious NT world..agreed.



			
				Gordon said:
			
		

> have known people who have judged congregations and denominations by first impression from the remarks of the ushers, or some pastor reply or sermon. That kind of judging is not reliable as an assessment of "all the problems and short comings" of the church. I'll be direct, as a prayer is direct, more than not "you" are the problem! in such cases.


 Again, agreed and in the past I am guilty as charged. There's still some things that would be a quick turnoff, but I've only ever just got up and walked out on service once, and I m growing less picky.



			
				Gordon said:
			
		

> Nost churches, congragations, today are willing to answer questions. Some answers may be way out there, some not.
> 
> And whoever offered this advise was a bit spot on.  Quote{when I started asking about the rapture and end times in the church I was told to leave it alone, it didn't matter, and it would just cause division in the church.} end quote.
> 
> ...



Gordon, I think you will agree, where the pre,post,a mill, pret comes into play mostly is not on the other side of eternity, but this side. I see my pre- brothers and sisters living out their days in constant worry and sadness. They are worried everytime an earthquake happens or a new war is waging that the end is near...and all of their doctrine is easily defeated in scripture.

My task is to learn how to show them just how great the present kingdom is, how great our victorious Lord Jesus truly is, and that He has already been crowned King of Kings, and Satan has no power on them for the Gospel is here. Christianity is in need of a new reformation away from what's weighing it down---( pre- dispensationalism).
It's not because I think I'm smarter, Its not because I think they are dumb, it's because I love them, and I know the unnecessary burden they are carrying...I carried it once myself, getting away from it was the 2nd greatest path my Lord has ever sent me on.


----------



## Israel (Sep 1, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I would be interested in participating in that discussion someday if you decide to raise it..
> ,
> Too many of our brethren burden themselves with OT law in this glorious NT world..agreed.
> 
> ...



Then you'll have to carry "their" pack for a few leagues. You and I are the only ones who can "disown" others, even if we believe they have disowned us.
We can keep fellowship in the spirit despite the seeming disregard others may have of our vision, we needn't ever be too quick to dust off our feet.
I think I understand about the unnecessary burdens part, a little, we see how the Lord has destroyed the carrot and stick mentality, (as Gordon put it), yet now, beginning to rejoice in its freedom, seem to see others still living there and feel a compelling to help them along. 
It's an interesting journey, this.
For if we be honest (perhaps) we may see it was never "us" that got us here, though at the first we may indeed be tempted to believe it was "because" of much study, prayer, diligence, piety...basically all the things we like to take to ourselves as a show of our devotion.
The seeing of "what is" NOW has all come through the labor of another.
And the learning of rest in that place you may discover does far more in the spirit than all our exegesis and fine arguments.
The "is" part of "Jesus is Lord" alone shatters all the "will be's" "someday soons" "I really hope this is true" elements we may believe we see in the confessions of others.
You may be surprised at the ones you end up speaking to, when wanting to "go to" a certain peoples...the Lord instead has a whole other lot waiting eagerly to hear of how one like you can live in a place of no burden.
Like Jesus, like Peter, like Paul, you may marvel at where seeds of faith have been sewn, though first thinking they "should be" where first you may have been inclined to believe you'd find them. Or want to. Or where your arguments, you believe, would be most easily presented, and logically embraced.
The seeming "paths" we take, or are better, given, are for the plotting out of a wholeness, a fullness we discover both in sufficiency, and need. The "everywhere" we place our feet, from the seeming different paths in faith we trod begins a work of weed killing, till we, as all who have gone before have learned, what once grew high to obscure our fellows in our sight, is now laid low, and we simply see our friends with us, exploring heavenly places.


----------



## hobbs27 (Sep 1, 2014)

Thanks Israel for your wisdom. Your words can be very motivational.


----------



## gordon 2 (Sep 1, 2014)

Israel said:


> Then you'll have to carry "their" pack for a few leagues. You and I are the only ones who can "disown" others, even if we believe they have disowned us.
> We can keep fellowship in the spirit despite the seeming disregard others may have of our vision, we needn't ever be too quick to dust off our feet.
> I think I understand about the unnecessary burdens part, a little, we see how the Lord has destroyed the carrot and stick mentality, (as Gordon put it), yet now, beginning to rejoice in its freedom, seem to see others still living there and feel a compelling to help them along.
> It's an interesting journey, this.
> ...



Good stuff. I'd be interested in this as a topic someday. Jesus our Lord, Jesus Lord of our Kingdom.

This in reference to our role in it.  What is our role in the Kingdom. What are we responsible for, if anything at all? Do the saints bring peace and justice to the world, to our communities, to life?

And Hobbs,  I'm going to rearrange your words a little bit, to make a point.  

" Christianity is in need of a new reformation away from what's weighing it down--I see my pre- brothers and sisters living out their days in constant worry and sadness. They are worried everytime an earthquake happens or a new war is waging that the end is near..."

In some ways I agree with you. Christians should not be overwhelmed  and overly preoccupied by end times. The God that I know is not. Or is He?

Alot of people would find it hard to believe this: 
"Satan has no power on them for the Gospel is here."

Why? Again I'd be interested in a study on the importance of the Kingdom in the lives of Christians and the "world" in the here and now? We could perhaps share our ideas on what it is, where it's from, and why it is?

I will be honest with you. My religious community's backgound is not preoccupied with end times and I have often known that other  Christian communities around mine are more so ( preoccupied by end times). Some go even as far a placing God's Kingdom after end times and saying that Jesus is not God all for their preoccupation with Revelations, and mention of end times by the apostles.

So why does it seem to me that a lot of christian communites, who have their start for the Reformation or from reformation communities are more preoccupied with "end time" or eschatology than more orthodox communities?
What gives? Why? Someone? ( I'm not interested in who's right or who's wrong answers. I'm interested in what is.) During the times of the great revivals in North America was "end times" stressed overly?

 Questions, Questions, Questions,  they sound in the gate  of Wesley's horse and in the the clips and the clops of our good pastor's ear.??? And what was in the tap of the sheets against her masts and in the sounds of faith of the Mayflower's cargo?


----------



## Israel (Sep 1, 2014)

Me? I think I may just be beginning to learn to love my wife.


----------



## gordon 2 (Sep 1, 2014)

Israel said:


> Me? I think I may just be beginning to learn to love my wife.



LOL... Then you'll be the fun-da-mental- ist to the progress of discussion. I can count on you for the basics and taking out the garbage?


----------



## Israel (Sep 1, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> LOL... Then you'll be the fun-da-mental- ist to the progress of discussion. I can count on you for the basics and taking out the garbage?


I am just learning about the garbage...I guess I thought it emptied itself.


----------



## hobbs27 (Sep 1, 2014)

Gordon, 
 The why some protestants are more occupied. I' ll take a guess at it, well my observations anyway.

Your community believe is in a life long work in salvation through God's grace which allows for patience. Most protestants believe in a moment of salvation that never leaves. The end times preaching is used as a scare tactic, they use it to scare people into professing Christ. That moment is important for protestants...The end is near get ready. If I had better than 3g connection where I'm currently at I would insert a funny video from YouTube of Dr. BL Gregory titled the Lord is coming soon.....look it up.


----------



## gordon 2 (Sep 1, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Gordon,
> The why some protestants are more occupied. I' ll take a guess at it, well my observations anyway.
> 
> Your community believe is in a life long work in salvation through God's grace which allows for patience. Most protestants believe in a moment of salvation that never leaves. The end times preaching is used as a scare tactic, they use it to scare people into professing Christ. That moment is important for protestants...The end is near get ready. If I had better than 3g connection where I'm currently at I would insert a funny video from YouTube of Dr. BL Gregory titled the Lord is coming soon.....look it up.



This one?


----------



## Israel (Sep 1, 2014)

It's not unusual to hear "get ready"...when the instruction is to:
 "be ready".


----------



## gordon 2 (Sep 1, 2014)

Israel said:


> It's not unusual to hear "get ready"...when the instruction is to:
> "be ready".



That's fundamental. Thanks


----------



## hobbs27 (Sep 1, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> This one?



Yep that's it. That just cracks me up.


----------



## hobbs27 (Sep 1, 2014)

Israel said:


> It's not unusual to hear "get ready"...when the instruction is to:
> "be ready".



is to, or was to?

http://asiteforthelord.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/eschatologicaltimestatements.pdf


----------



## gordon 2 (Sep 1, 2014)

For what its worth I just listened to a preacher explain why the  need and effectiveness for purposes of salvation of "fire and brimstone" sermons.  According to him, they are an honest description of what awaits the lost, who know not Christ or God. The point is to shake a lost sinner into seeing who he is, who he is not, and why he is and what he/she is. After this has been made perfectly clear, salvation from their state, through Jesus  for the cross is made perfectly clear. 

Said, old time preachers would come into a town and preach H E Double Hockey Sticks for three weeks and then on the last two days they would preach on the love of God, his grace and salvation. He said whole godless communities would flock to Christ for this sort of preaching.

On the other hand he said, this was not the kind of preaching done on people who knew Christ.

Interesting... So Dr. B L Gregory just might be anointed after all.


----------



## gordon 2 (Sep 2, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> is to, or was to?
> 
> http://asiteforthelord.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/eschatologicaltimestatements.pdf



I read the PDF on eschatological times.

  Did it ever occur to you, ( I'm sure it did) that saved people are judged for cleaving to their shepard, this faith is accounted to them as righteousness and those who dismiss salvation with conviction are judged also, and being unrighteous in this way, they are creatures to wrath?

 So there is a judgement being done in this "old world". But for now it rains on both the righteous and the unrighteous.

To my mind this world is judged because Jesus has returned to judge it especially after the destruction of the Temple and the virile construction of the new Christian church ( the new corporate and spiritual body of believers) of which Jesus is the spiritual head. This is why no one should ask if Jesus is here or there bodily at this time.

So Jesus as head of the church, ministering through the church, through scripture, through the saints is a form of judgement. It is the establishing of what is a good man from what is not one. It is establishing who exactly is willing to turn his natures, spirit and body to Christ, to God.

But ours  is not the last judgment, to my mind. It is not the last judgment Jesus will do. There will be one last judgement, where the bodily resurrected saints and those still living in Christ at this coming will be separated once and for all from man who as far as he worshiped, worshiped the creature and not God. 

It will be not unlike the days of Noah. 

So what I'm getting at is did you ever consider that two events are being talked about and understood by a lot of people as if it was one event?  Our days are a type of the days yet to come.  Today are the days where man's spirit is judged and later all of man will be judged both in spirit and in the flesh. Today man is given the choice to be freed from the world of wrath--- spiritually now, but totally ( spirit and body) in the future.

 Just as the Hebrews who made it to God's promised land is a type of our present day Kingdom in Christ, our present day kingdom in Christ is a type of the final kingdom in the "all in all". And by all I mean all or both body and soul, soul ( spirit) and body in a face to face with all the bodily resurrected and those still living, or the flock and Jesus.

Just as were the consequences for Noah's flood, was a type of the Hebrews crossing the Red Sea and its consequences, and that this as a type has its consequences for our baptism in Christ--there must be an end to this because all these types are ministered to man yet captive of the world of sin.

The general resurrection will solve the body-spirit problem we keep having. Heaven, as far as we see it as a place where the spirit ( only) of the saints go to, cannot be our final destination. Jesus which is our example resurrected both in body and in spirit.  And as my example, I think that's how I am meant to be before him, my God.

 My prayer of salvation it goes something like this: By faith despite my pea size mind and even smaller heart, in a childlike kind of way, I view someone as saved as Adam and Eve were before the fall, a man of spirit and clay in intense communion with God, before the tempter did his tricks.  The general resurrection and judgement will get rid of the tempter once and for all, and restore Gordie to the garden like a deer is fitted to the fields and the forests even today--- and as per God's original design.


----------



## hobbs27 (Sep 2, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> I read the PDF on eschatological times.
> 
> Did it ever occur to you, ( I'm sure it did) that saved people are judged for cleaving to their shepard, this faith is accounted to them as righteousness and those who dismiss salvation with conviction are judged also, and being unrighteous in this way, they are creatures to wrath?
> 
> ...




Very good. Yes I have considered these things, as I was once amillenial. I thought of a corporate bodily resurrection of the church in our future. Then I tested that with the scriptures, I couldn't hold that belief up on my own and the Word didn't appear to offer a hand.

Of all those time stamps placed on a soon coming, where are the ones that places His coming way into the future? We can allude that no man knows the hour except for the Father.....but none of these stamps call out the exact hour but show signs. John didn't know the exact hour, but he knew they were in the last hours.

I'm open to scripture, where is it, that places Christ return way into the future?


----------



## gordon 2 (Sep 2, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Very good. Yes I have considered these things, as I was once amillenial. I thought of a corporate bodily resurrection of the church in our future. Then I tested that with the scriptures, I couldn't hold that belief up on my own and the Word didn't appear to offer a hand.
> 
> Of all those time stamps placed on a soon coming, where are the ones that places His coming way into the future? We can allude that no man knows the hour except for the Father.....but none of these stamps call out the exact hour but show signs. John didn't know the exact hour, but he knew they were in the last hours.
> 
> I'm open to scripture, where is it, that places Christ return way into the future?




 1. Matt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.


  2.  1Corinthians. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.…


----------



## hobbs27 (Sep 2, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> 1. Matt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.



Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. 18But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."

 Romans 16:25-26

25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; 



gordon 2 said:


> 2.  1Corinthians. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.…



^^^ This indeed gives the order, and also shows how they were looking for the end. This only shows longevity to you because you do not believe these things have come to pass as I do, what must it have meant to the corinthians?  would they have read this and thought to themselves," well it looks as if the end is a long time from now"? I think not.

 Sorry Im so difficult, I try not to be.


----------



## gordon 2 (Sep 3, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
> 
> Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. 18But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."
> 
> ...



Now about this one.... what do you make of this in the context we are discussing.

Mat 16:27  For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

 Mark 13: 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

Why is your heaven not included into the ends of them?

As for my view which I have not studied in dept, I must admit, is in this: "Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth."

I know for a fact that the meek do not inherit the earth now... it is just the opposite. I can only believe it is in the future, and far off at that.


----------



## hobbs27 (Sep 3, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> Now about this one.... what do you make of this in the context we are discussing.
> 
> Mat 16:27  For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
> 
> ...





With Matthew 16:27 all one needs to do is read the next verse, as for timing. :28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

If you were standing there and heard those words, would you not think these things were going to take place within that generation?

I believe Him coming in the glory, also means coming in the clouds, the reward He was bringing was salvation.


Mark 13 is parallel to Matt 24 the Olivet discourse, all of this was about the end and the coming of Jesus. The end of the old covenant.
The destruction of the temple as witnessed by Josephus as He reported chariots in the sky over Jerusalem as she was sacked.

                          THE--VICTORY--HAS--BEEN--WON!!


----1John5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?


----------

