# TRUTH ABOUT BAPTISM



## Banjo Picker (Apr 3, 2022)

_The Ordinance of Christian water Baptism_

The Greek word for _baptize_ is _haptidzo_ from _bapto,_ to dip, plunge, immerse, submerge, and cover wholly with the element used in baptism Lk. 16:24; Jn. 13:26; Rev. 19:13. Only twice is _baptidzo_ translated _wash_ and in these cases the thing washed was wholly wet Mk. 7:4; Lk. 11:38. When wetting or washing a part of the body is meant, The Greek "nipto" is used Mt. 16:17; 15:2; Jn. 9:7-15; 13:5-14. But in any event baptism is compared to a _burial_ regardless of which baptism is referred to Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:12.


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## RegularJoe (Apr 4, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> in any event baptism is compared to a _burial_ regardless of which baptism is referred to Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:12.


Yeah ... 'burial' of my old self (thanks be to Him).


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 4, 2022)

_There Are Seven Baptisms in Scripture_

1.   _John's baptism in water in the name of God_ Mt. 3; Luke 3; Acts 1:5; Jn. 1:31-34.
2.   _Baptism in water by Christ's disciples in the name of the Father_ Jn. 3:22, 23; 4:1, 2; 5:43; 10:25.
3.  _Moses' baptism in the cloud and in the sea_ 1 Cor. 10:2.
_4.  The baptism of suffering_ Luke 12:50.
5.  _Baptism "into Christ" and into His body, the church_ Rom. 6:4; 12:4, 5; 1Cor. 10:17; 12:13; Gal. 3:27; Eph. 4:5; Col. 2:12.
6.  _Christian water-baptism in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost_ Mt. 28:19; Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38, 41; 8:12-16, 36-38; 8:18; 10;48; 16:15, 33; 18:8; 19:6; 22:16; 1 Cor. 1:13-17; 1 Pet. 3:21.
7.  _Baptism in the Holy Spirit_ Isa. 11:2; 28:9-12; 32:15; 42:1-7; 44:3; 61:1; Ezek. 39:29; Joel 2:28, 29; Matt. 3:11, 16, 17; 11:2-6; 12:15-21, 28; 20:22, 23; Mark 1:7-11; 10:38, 39; Lk. 3:16-22; 4:16-21; 24:49; Jn. 1:29-34; 3:34; 7:37-39; 14:12-17, 26; 15:26; 16:13-15; Acts 1:4-8; 2:1-4, 16-21, 33-39; 5:32; 6:3-10; 8:15-20; 9:17; 10:38-48; 11:15-18; 13:2; 14:3; 15:7-11; 18:24-28; 19:1-7, 11; Rom. 15:18, 29; 1 Cor. 16:10; 2 Cor. 4:7; 6:7; 9:8; 10:3-5, 8-11; 12:9, 12; 13:4, 10; Gal. 3:3-5, 14; Eph. 1:19; 3:7, 16-19; Col. 1:11; 1 Thess. 1:5; 2 Thess. 1:11; 2:17; 2 Tim. 1:7; 2:21; 3:5; Heb. 2:3-4.


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## brutally honest (Apr 4, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> _There Are Seven Baptisms in Scripture_



Man says there are seven.  Paul says there is one.  

Par for the course.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 5, 2022)

_Three Baptisms for Modern Believers_

Paul Taught that there were "baptism" for believers Heb. 6:2. They are the last three of seven baptisms mentioned above. The first four above are in the past. Some Christians have been called to go through the baptism of suffering, number four above, but the first three could not be experienced by men today, for they are done away with.
  The three agents in the three baptism for all men of today are the minister, the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ. The three elements that believers are baptized into are water, Christ, and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the agent that baptizes the believer "into Christ" and "into His body," the church 1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:27; Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:12. The minister then baptizes the believer in water Mt. 28:19. Then Christ baptizes the same believer in the Holy Ghost, provided he understands, asks for Lk. 11:13, obeys God Acts 5:32, and has faith for it Jn. 7:37-39; 14:12-17; Acts 1:4-2:4. The foregoing procedure is the general order of the three baptisms but sometimes the Spirit-baptism precedes water-baptism, as in the case of Paul and Cornelius and his house Acts 9:17, 18; 10:44-48. Otherwise water-baptism comes BEFORE the Spirit-baptism Acts 2:38, 39; 19:1-7, but it is always AFTER the baptism into Christ and into the His body. This baptism into Christ is the "one baptism" of Eph. 4:5 that all men must in order to be saved and be in one body of Christ, the church. This is the baptism that cleanses from all sin, and makes one a new creature in Christ and a fit candidate for the baptism in water and in the Holy Spirit Jn. 3:3-5; 2 Cor. 5:17; Rom. 6:1-8; 1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:37; Col. 1:11-13. Water-baptism is merely an outward figure or symbol of the baptism into Christ, or the inward work that brings one into the body of Christ and the family of God.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 5, 2022)

_Importance of the Three Baptisms_

Baptism "into Christ" _is essential to salvation_ Gal. 3:26, 27; 5:24; 1 Cor. 12:13; 2 Cor. 5:17; Rom. 6:3-12; Col. 2:11-13; baptism into water _is essential to obedience_ and to a "good conscience" after one is saved and in Christ Mt. 28:19; 1 Pet. 3:21; 1 Jn. 5:6-10; and baptism into the Holy Spirit _is essential to receive power for service_ Lk. 24:49; Jn.14:12-17; Acts 1:4-8.


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## Ruger#3 (Apr 5, 2022)

The first Baptist church was formed about 1600. How do you reconcile that for over a thousand years this was not the practice of Christianity. Both the Orthodox and Catholic faith, the oldest churches, view this differently.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 6, 2022)

_The Mode of Baptism_

The mode of baptism is by immersion The word _baptidzo, or baptize_, never means sprinkle or pour. There is no example in any Greek literature through many ages where the word has lost its original meaning or where it means anything else but to submerge or immerse, or where it means a partial application of water by sprinkling or pouring.
  Every passage where the word is used in the New Testament either requires or allows the meaning of immerse. Passages speak of baptism "in Jordan" and "in the river Jordan" Mt. 3:6; Mk. 1:5. Jesus went down into the river for He "went straightway out of the water" Mt. 3:16; Mk. 1:10. Philip and the eunuch "went down both into the water" and came "up out of the water" Acts 8:38, 39. John baptized near Salim "because there was much water there that is a sufficient depth of water for baptizing Jn. 3:23.


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## Ruger#3 (Apr 6, 2022)

I see you don’t actually discuss, simply keep throwing scripture references to support your view. I’ll leave you with this Greek language reference.

Original WordWord Origin
baptizofrom a derivative of (911)
Transliterated WordTDNT Entry
Baptizo1:529,92
Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech
bap-tid'-zo
Definition

to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe
to overwhelm


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 7, 2022)

The testimony of the early church Fathers is that immersion was the only mode of baptism. The practice of the early churches was immersion. Therefore, no modern church has the right to change or modify the New Testament commands on baptism, or to change the literal and commonly known meaning of _baptidzo,_ that is, bury, immerse, and submerge to that of sprinkling or pouring. All arguments that it is impractical, dangerous to health, indecent, and inconvenient are not sufficient to change the specific commands of the Bible. If there ever is a case where it cannot be possible to baptize by immersion, then it is no longer a duty. The argument that God blesses other modes is no excuse for error and disobedience.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 8, 2022)

*BAPTISM NOT TO REMIT SINS*

_THE FOLLOWING FACTS PROVE THAT BAPTISM IS SYMBOLIC AND FIGURATIVE AND THAT IT DOES NOT REMIT ONE SIN:_

_No intelligent man can believe it remits sins._ Even those who advocate the theory of baptismal remission or sacramental salvation do not really believe it. Every honest one of them will acknowledge that there are many people in the world to whom the gospel is preached who have received remission of sins, enjoy the favor God, and are saved who have never been baptized. This fact alone proves that the whole system of salvation by baptism rests upon a perversion of the Word of God.


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## brutally honest (Apr 8, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> *BAPTISM NOT TO REMIT SINS*
> 
> _No intelligent man can believe it remits sins._



Very intelligent Martin Luther:

*What benefits does Baptism give?*
It works forgiveness of sins, rescues from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare.

https://catechism.cph.org/en/sacrament-of-holy-baptism.html


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 8, 2022)

_Such a theory takes salvation out of the hands of Christ and places it in the hands of other mediators between God and man, the administrators of baptism._

This makes the work of Christ of no avail until some man preforms the baptism ceremony for the penitent. Other words the work of Christ cannot save the soul until man baptizes the penitent. Man then is the final saviour and has the last say as to who will be saved. If man for some reason refuses to baptize any person then that person will be eternally lost regardless of the word of Christ. But this theory is not true.


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## brutally honest (Apr 8, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> _Such a theory takes salvation out of the hands of Christ and places it in the hands of other mediators between God and man, the administrators of baptism_.



That didn’t seem to be a problem for the 3,000 in Acts 2 or the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8 or Paul in Acts 9 or Cornelius in Acts 10 or the Philippian jailer and his family in Acts 16.


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## brutally honest (Apr 8, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> The testimony of the early church Fathers is that immersion was …



… for the forgiveness of sins.


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## Ruger#3 (Apr 8, 2022)

It’s spelled out very clearly baptism is the new covenant replacing circumcision. It cleanses, washes away the original sin each of us is born with. Through baptism we are joined into the church though we are gentiles.

For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.  And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendant, heirs according to his promise (Galatians 3:27–29)


In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not administered by hand, by stripping off the carnal body, with the circumcision of Christ.  You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead (Col. 2:11–12)


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 8, 2022)

When the penitent sinner is ready to receive Christ no power in the universe can prevent his forgiveness and salvation for one moment. Baptismal remission teaches and requires baptism by man before the work of Christ can be effective. any baptizer therefore would be more powerful than Christ and could halt the work of Christ in the penitent and make the work of Christ of no effect. He could make void all faith on the part of the penitent and all the love of God for man by refusing to baptize the sinner who repents. Fortunately, such theory is a fallacy and is contrary to the Word of God and to the common sense of man.


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## brutally honest (Apr 8, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> When the penitent sinner is ready to receive Christ no power in the universe can prevent his forgiveness and salvation for one moment. Baptismal remission teaches and requires baptism by man before the work of Christ can be effective. any baptizer therefore would be more powerful than Christ and could halt the work of Christ in the penitent and make the work of Christ of no effect. He could make void all faith on the part of the penitent and all the love of God for man by refusing to baptize the sinner who repents. Fortunately, such theory is a fallacy and is contrary to the Word of God and to the common sense of man.



“How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?”

God uses men to preach.  Why can’t He use men to baptize?

In the OT, God used an entire Hebrew tribe (the Levites) as mediators for the nation of Israel.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 8, 2022)

_Baptismal regeneration limits the efficacy of the blood of Christ to the physical element of water._

It makes salvation impractical in the frozen north and to the sick, and impossible to those who die in the deserts without water. The founder of one church teaching salvation by baptism states, Wherever faith water and the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are there will be found the efficacy of the blood of Jesus." According to this where water is not found there cannot be found any efficacy in the blood of Jesus. But this is not all for water would have to be found in sufficient quantity for immersion or the blood of Jesus could have no efficacy. There are then vast portions of the Earth where the blood would have no efficacy. Could anyone in his good senses accept such perversion of the gospel of Christ? This would make salvation impossible for millions of people in many parts of the Earth under certain circumstances.


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## brutally honest (Apr 8, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> It makes salvation impractical in the frozen north and to the sick, and impossible to those who die in the deserts without water.



I’ve never heard climate used as an objection to baptism.

Paul was baptized in Antioch.  Have you ever been to Syria?  It’s DRY.


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## brutally honest (Apr 8, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> But this is not all for water would have to be found in sufficient quantity for immersion or the blood of Jesus could have no efficacy.



70% of the earth’s surface is water.  It is literally easier to find water to baptize someone than it is to find dirt to bury someone.


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## brutally honest (Apr 8, 2022)

Acts 8:

And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, *which is desert*.
27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36 _*And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?*_

The Lord provides.


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## Ruger#3 (Apr 9, 2022)

The Greek word for baptize is put into context in Luke. Hence we know immersion as only one method of baptism.

Luke 11:38—“And when the Pharisee saw it, he marvelled that he had not first washed [_baptizô_] before dinner,”

They would not have expected Christ to dunk before dinner.

Jewish anointments involve pouring water over the individual and applying oil. Gentiles we’re brought into the Jewish faith by going into the river and pouring water over them, cleansing away sin. Immersion would have been foreign to the Jews.


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## Madman (Apr 9, 2022)

The Didache is a good read on this and other practices of the Church.


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## Ruger#3 (Apr 9, 2022)

Madman said:


> The Didache is a good read on this and other practices of the Church.




*Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism*

And concerning baptism,  baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19 in living water. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.


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## brutally honest (Apr 9, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> Gentiles we’re brought into the Jewish faith by going into the river and pouring water over them …



Why walk into a river to have water poured on you?

For churches who practice pouring (or sprinkling) today, I submit to you that “Quick!  Let’s get to the river for the baptism service” is never said by anyone, anywhere.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 9, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Why walk into a river to have water poured on you?
> 
> For churches who practice pouring (or sprinkling) today, I submit to you that “Quick!  Let’s get to the river for the baptism service” is never said by anyone, anywhere.


It makes it easier to do it at the water source. I've cleansed myself like that camping before. Usually the river was not deep enough. I've seen parts of the Alapaha River so low that would about be the only way to do it.


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## brutally honest (Apr 9, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> It makes it easier to do it at the water source.



Poppycock 

(Please forgive my use of theological jargon.)


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 9, 2022)

Is running water superior to standing water for baptism? Say a river over a cistern or a fountain instead of a ditch?


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 9, 2022)

Ezekiel 36:25
I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.

A mikvah was often a body of natural water such as a river, lake, spring, or any naturally fed gathering of water.
Over time, however, it became common to construct special pools.

When Gentile converts go down into the waters of the mikvah, they leave behind their pagan ways—symbolically dying to their old life—and come up out of the water as a newborn child with an entirely new identity.  They are in essence reborn.

Immersing fully into the waters of the mikvah is like re-entering the womb, the place of mercy; of God’s creative power.  Emerging from the mikvah is like being born again.

https://free.messianicbible.com/fea...en-immersion-conversion-and-being-born-again/


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 9, 2022)

“Don’t you know that all of us who were immersed into Messiah Yeshua were immersed into His death? We were therefore buried with Him through baptism [immersion] into death in order that, just as Messiah was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.”  _(Romans 6:3-4)_


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 9, 2022)

_Remission of sins by water baptism reverses the whole order of the gospel, _
Which is repentance and faith before baptism Mk. 1:14, 15; Mt. 21:32; Acts 20:21; Rom. 10:9, 10.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 9, 2022)

_It contradicts hundreds of Scriptures,_ which say that sins are remitted, and men are saved, justified, sanctified, and washed from sins:

1.  By grace through faith Rom. 3:24, 25; Eph. 2:8, 9; Acts 15:8, 9.
2.  By faith without works Rom. 3:22-28; 4:1-25; 5:1; Gal. 3:19-29.
3.  By faith in the blood of Jesus Rom. 3:24,25; 5:9; Eph. 1:7; Rev. 1:5; 1 Jn. 1:7; Mt. 26:28; Heb. 9:22; 1 Pet. 1:18-23.
4.  By the death of Christ Rom. 5:10, 11; 1 Cor. 15:1-5.
5.  By the obedience of Christ Rom. 8:2.
6.  By the Spirit of life in Christ Rom. 8:2.
7.  By confession and faith from the heart Rom. 10:9, 10; 1 Jn. 1:9.
8.  By calling upon the name of the Lord Acts 2:21; Rom. 10:9-13.
9.  By believing on Jesus Jn. 3:16-18, 26; Acts 10:43; 13:38-40; 16:31; Rom. 10:9, 10; 1 Cor. 1:21.
11.  By repentance and faith in the gospel Mk. 1:14, 15; Acts 20:21.
12.  By receiving and believing that Jesus is the Christ Jn. 1:12; 1 Jn. 5:1.
13.  By repentance and conversion Acts 3:19; 2 Cor. 7:9, 10.
14.  By faith in His name Mt. 1:21; Acts 3:16; 4:10-12.
15.  By the Word of God 1Pet. 1:23; James 1:18; Jn. 3:5; 15:3.
 It will be noted that not one time is baptism referred to in any one of these passages as necessary in the remission of sins. not one time does any Scripture say that sins cannot be remitted without baptism. Not one time does the Bible say, _without water-baptism sins cannot be remitted,_ but it does say, "without the shedding of blood is no remission" and "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" and many like expressions Heb. 9:22; Lk. 13:1-5; Mt. 18:1-3; Acts 3:19; Jn. 3:1-5. There should be at least one simple statement in Scripture that says without water baptism one cannot be saved if it is so important. No such statement can be found nor even one that hints such an idea, so why not be sensible and believe that it is not essential to the remission of sins?


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## brutally honest (Apr 9, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> It will be noted that not one time is baptism referred to in any one of these passages as necessary in the remission of sins. not one time does any Scripture say that sins cannot be remitted without baptism.



That's because you left out all the passages where it does say that.


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## brutally honest (Apr 9, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> ... why not be sensible and believe that it is not essential to the remission of sins?



I don't want to contradict the words of our Lord in John 3:5, Mark 16:16 or Matthew 28:19-20.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 9, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> That's because you left out all the passages where it does say that.



 I am just getting warm up.


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## brutally honest (Apr 9, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> Water-baptism is merely an outward figure or symbol of the baptism into Christ ...



BTW, this is complete fiction.  It is taught nowhere in scripture.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 9, 2022)

_Infant-Baptism_

There is no support for infant-baptism in any Scripture. There is no express command for infants to be baptized until they become responsible agents and turn to God and have their sins remitted as in the case of adults. There is no case of Baptism of infants in the Scriptures. No passage even implies such practice. Salvation is a personal experience and children must become old enough to accept salvation before they are commanded to be baptized. Children until they become responsible, even though their parents are unsaved, will be taken to Heaven if they die before accountability just as much as those of saved parents Mt. 18:1-10; 19:14. Scripture demand faith and repentance as necessary before baptism and this no child can do until he is old enough to understand sin and what to do to be saved. Infant-baptism became prominent when churches began to teach baptism and other sacraments to save the soul and remit sin. Such practice makes it impossible to obey Christ's command later without admitting infant-baptism was of no benefit. Since there are so many scriptural reasons why infant-baptism should not be practiced and since it has no efficacy it would be best to wait until the child turns to God by faith and repents of its sins before it is baptized.


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## gordon 2 (Apr 9, 2022)

So the way I understand it. The Pharisees who cleaved not to Christ said, " Ho, everything hangs on scripture. Doesn't the scripture say this and that... Ho." And Christ said go fly a kite. If you knew scripture as from the tree of life, instead as from the tree of the wisdom of good and evil,  Ho you'd know everything hangs on me. Check what your string is tied to."


"If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”"

"But you still insist that scripture says as if it was me."

Or something like that.


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## Ruger#3 (Apr 9, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> _Infant-Baptism_
> 
> There is no support for infant-baptism in any Scripture. There is no express command for infants to be baptized until they become responsible agents and turn to God and have their sins remitted as in the case of adults. There is no case of Baptism of infants in the Scriptures. No passage even implies such practice. Salvation is a personal experience and children must become old enough to accept salvation before they are commanded to be baptized. Children until they become responsible, even though their parents are unsaved, will be taken to Heaven if they die before accountability just as much as those of saved parents Mt. 18:1-10; 19:14. Scripture demand faith and repentance as necessary before baptism and this no child can do until he is old enough to understand sin and what to do to be saved. Infant-baptism became prominent when churches began to teach baptism and other sacraments to save the soul and remit sin. Such practice makes it impossible to obey Christ's command later without admitting infant-baptism was of no benefit. Since there are so many scriptural reasons why infant-baptism should not be practiced and since it has no efficacy it would be best to wait until the child turns to God by faith and repents of its sins before it is baptized.



You ignored post #12 then the reference is clearly there.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 9, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> You ignored post #12 then the reference is clearly there.



Didn't ignore post # 12 nothing said on it saved me, it was Jesus Christ who die on the cross made the way for me to be saved and by repenting of my sins. It' s sad that any man should believe such. show me where it says baptism save's men and not the Lord Jesus Christ.

"Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God" Mt. 22:22.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 9, 2022)

_There are many concrete examples of people being saved and having sins remitted without and before water baptism. Note the following_.

1.   All the saints of Old Testament were holy had sins remitted and were born again and saved from sin without water baptism Heb. 11; Rom. 3:23-25; Heb. 9:15; Rom. 4; Gal. 3:15; James 2:23; Ps. 32:5; 103: Lk. 1:70; Acts 3:21; 2 Pet. 1:21. Not one clear reference is given in Scripture of water-baptism for the Old Testament saints as practiced by Christians, but according to many Scriptures that they did have the new birth and remission of sins and other spiritual experiences. Some use Heb. 9:10 to prove that they were baptized but the Greek word _baptimos_ means _washings _and not baptism as it is translated. Old Testament saints went through many ceremonial washings and sprinklings with water and blood and all of them were typical and ceremonial forms or figures of other truths that were spiritual. Baptism by burial administered by man was a new thing that was started by John the Baptist. Therefore, to teach baptismal-regeneration would in effect say that all of the Old Testament saints were not saved and will be lost, or that they must yet be baptized in order to be finally saved, and this no man will argue. If they were saved without and before water baptism, then regeneration by baptism only, is false.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 9, 2022)

"repent and be baptized"
Could we touch briefly on repent as a requirement since it seems to go with baptize.

I really don't see either as a cause of salvation.


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## brutally honest (Apr 9, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> 1.   All the saints of Old Testament were holy had sins remitted and were born again and saved from sin without water baptism.



There’s a reason it’s called the “Old” Testament.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 9, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> "repent and be baptized"
> Could we touch briefly on repent as a requirement since it seems to go with baptize.
> 
> I really don't see either as a cause of salvation.


If you know someone that just got saved and he was suppose to be baptized next week but they get killed say five days before that without being baptized were do they go to Heaven or He11?


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 9, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> There’s a reason it’s called the “Old” Testament.


Yes, and in Revelation it says the Books were open, that means all of them from The beginning of the Old Testament, and to the end of the New Testament to be judged from them .


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## brutally honest (Apr 9, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> If you know someone that just got saved and he was suppose to be baptized next week but they get killed say five days before that without being baptized were do they go to Heaven or He11?



“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.”

 — Jesus Christ


----------



## brutally honest (Apr 9, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> Not one clear reference is given in Scripture of water-baptism for the Old Testament saints as practiced by Christians ...



… and there are no references to animal sacrifices for NT saints.  This has nothing to do with the topic at hand.


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## NE GA Pappy (Apr 9, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> Immersion would have been foreign to the Jews.



Contraire.  The jewish worship lifestyle was built around immersion as a cleansing method.  There were pools called mikvahs all over the country and in the cities where the people would go to immerse themselves to be ritually cleansed to enter the temple, to perform worship acts at the temple or to prepare themselves to be examined by the priest to be declared free of disease.  If a priest even stepped on a grave, he had to go thru a cleansing that lasted 7 days, IIRC, and involved immersion in a mikvah.

The blessing that is spoken before immersion is 



> The mikveh blessing is the same for converts and for women before marriage and keeping niddah. Many mikva’ot provide the text.
> 
> *Barukh ata Adonai Elohenu melekh ha’olam asher kideshanu b’mitzvotav v’tzivanu al ha’tevillah.*
> 
> Blessed are You, O Lord, our God, King of the universe, who has sanctified us with Your commandments and commanded us concerning the immersion.


----------



## Ruger#3 (Apr 9, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Contraire.  The jewish worship lifestyle was built around immersion as a cleansing method.  There were pools called mikvahs all over the country and in the cities where the people would go to immerse themselves to be ritually cleansed to enter the temple, to perform worship acts at the temple or to prepare themselves to be examined by the priest to be declared free of disease.  If a priest even stepped on a grave, he had to go thru a cleansing that lasted 7 days, IIRC, and involved immersion in a mikvah.
> 
> The blessing that is spoken before immersion is



I agree with everything you said. There was immersion and use of a cup, both a method of cleansing.


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## NE GA Pappy (Apr 9, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> I agree with everything you said. There was immersion and use of a cup, both a method of cleansing.



ok.. I thought you were under the impression that the jews didn't immerse.  They been dunkin' each other for centuries.


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## Ruger#3 (Apr 9, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> ok.. I thought you were under the impression that the jews didn't immerse.  They been dunkin' each other for centuries.



As part of ritual cleansing, yes.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 9, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.”
> 
> — Jesus Christ


What do you not understand about a simple question I said if he was saved and not baptized. Baptismal is not first in the order.


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## brutally honest (Apr 9, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> What do you not understand about a simple question I said if he was saved and not baptized. Baptismal is not first in the order.



Do you agree with Jesus when He said:

“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved”?


----------



## brutally honest (Apr 9, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> What do you not understand about a simple question I said if he was saved and not baptized. Baptismal is not first in the order.



You’re assuming that salvation precedes baptism.


----------



## brutally honest (Apr 9, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> *BAPTISM NOT TO REMIT SINS*
> 
> _THE FOLLOWING FACTS PROVE THAT BAPTISM IS SYMBOLIC AND FIGURATIVE AND THAT IT DOES NOT REMIT ONE SIN:_
> 
> _No intelligent man can believe it remits sins._



Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins ...


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 9, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> You’re assuming that salvation precedes baptism.



No, I am saying baptismal does not remit any sins.


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## brutally honest (Apr 9, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> No, I am saying baptismal does not remit any sins.



Are there any other doctrines you think Peter got wrong?

Or is it just baptism?


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 9, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins ...



Yes Peter said REPENT and be baptized but if that person dies before he is baptized then does he go to Heaven or He11 for not being baptized?


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## brutally honest (Apr 9, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> Yes Peter said REPENT and be baptized but if that person dies before he is baptized then does he go to Heaven or He11 for not being baptized?



So you now agree with Peter that baptism remits sins?  You completely renounce what you wrote in post 11?


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## Madman (Apr 10, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> Yes Peter said REPENT and be baptized but if that person dies before he is baptized then does he go to Heaven or He11 for not being baptized?


It depends on whether he has a desire to be baptized or rejects baptism.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 10, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Are there any other doctrines you think Peter got wrong?
> 
> Or is it just baptism?


Guess you think


brutally honest said:


> “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.”
> 
> — Jesus Christ



Zechariah, Elizabeth, Mary, Simmeon, Anna, and John the baptist were all "filled" with the Holy Spirit before and without water baptism, for John had not yet come baptizing in water Lk. 1:15, 41, 46, 67; 2; 2:25-38. Unsaved men do not have the Holy Spirit Rom. 8:9, 14-16; Jn. 16:17, therefore if these people were filled with the Spirit they must have been saved men and women. If they were saved without water-baptism then it is possible for others to be saved without it.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 10, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins ...



The thief on the cross was saved without baptism Lk. 23:43. Should anyone argue that the statement in this passage is a question instead of a positive fact, let him read Mk. 14:30, which is a similar expression in both the Greek and English versions, which proves Luke 23:43 to be a positive statement of fact as much as is Mark 14:30.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 10, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Are there any other doctrines you think Peter got wrong?
> 
> Or is it just baptism?


Didn't every say Peter was wrong or right.

 But I will say that Jesus was right as said below, 

 palsied man of Matt. 9:1-7 was saved without water-baptism: "Jesus seeing their faith [not their water baptism] said . . . thy sins be forgiven thee . . . the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins." He had power to do it and He did it without water baptism. In fact of the THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE JESUS FORGAVE OF SINS AND HEALED BY CASTING OUT ALL devils, not one did He require to be baptism before He remitted sins. Jesus did not baptize one person in all His ministry but He did remit sins of many people Jn. 4:2. this is sufficient proof that sins can be remitted without water-baptism.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 10, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Are there any other doctrines you think Peter got wrong?
> 
> Or is it just baptism?


Guess you think


brutally honest said:


> So you now agree with Peter that baptism remits sins?  You completely renounce what you wrote in post 11?



Yes That Baptism Not To Remit Sins 
Jesus Himself was baptized in water, not to have His sins remitted, for He knew no sin, but to go through the symbolic death, burial, and resurrection that He came into the world to fulfill to save men Matt. 3:13-17.

Many other cases of remission of sins and healing were done _by faith_ without water baptism Matt. 9:22; Mk. 5:34; 10:52; Lk. 7:48; 17:19; 18:42; Acts 3:16.


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## brutally honest (Apr 10, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> Zechariah, Elizabeth, Mary, Simmeon, Anna, and John the baptist were all "filled" with the Holy Spirit before and without water baptism ...



... and all were Jews living under the Old Covenant.  We live under the New Covenant.


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## brutally honest (Apr 10, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> palsied man of Matt. 9:1-7 was saved without water-baptism:



During Jesus' three-year earthly ministry, He could and did forgive sins, including the palsied man and the thief on the cross.

Since Jesus is not currently walking the earth healing and forgiving sins, we must ask how men are saved today under the New Covenant.


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## brutally honest (Apr 10, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> Didn't every say Peter was wrong or right.



You directly contradicted the Apostle Peter.  Reread posts 57-59.


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## brutally honest (Apr 10, 2022)

Banjo Picker’s reaction when I post a baptism verse:


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## NE GA Pappy (Apr 10, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> You’re assuming that salvation precedes baptism.


 
Aren't you assuming that it doesn't?


----------



## Ruger#3 (Apr 10, 2022)

Evangelicals tend to cling to the burial scripture and skip right over the “circumcision without hands“ which is foundational.


----------



## brutally honest (Apr 10, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Aren't you assuming that it doesn't?



Not assuming.  Baptism precedes salvation in Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 10, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> ... and all were Jews living under the Old Covenant.  We live under the New Covenant.



An unnamed sinner woman was forgiven of her sins before and without water baptism Jesus said Her sins, which are many are forgiven . . . thy sins be forgiven . . . thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace Luke 7:36-50.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 10, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> During Jesus' three-year earthly ministry, He could and did forgive sins, including the palsied man and the thief on the cross.
> 
> Since Jesus is not currently walking the earth healing and forgiving sins, we must ask how men are saved today under the New Covenant.



I disagree Jesus Christ is still with me on this Earth, He said He would be with me even till the end, do you believe He's not here?  

The publican was saved and justified and therefore had his sins remitted by prayer without water-baptism, according to Jesus Luke 18:9-14.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 10, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> You directly contradicted the Apostle Peter.  Reread posts 57-59.



Zacchaeus was saved without baptism Luke 19:1-9.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 10, 2022)

The eunuch had to believe with all his heart before Philp baptized him Acts 8:37. Believing from the heart automatically produces the new birth Rom. 10:9, 10; 1 John 5:1.


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## Madman (Apr 10, 2022)

I never equate the forgiveness of past sins with salvation.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 10, 2022)

Madman said:


> I never equate the forgiveness of past sins with salvation.



I wouldn't replying to your post Madman.


----------



## Madman (Apr 10, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> I wouldn't replying to your post Madman.


I know.  It was a simple statement and I realize you are not attempting to convert me.  

You and I would most likely agree about many things, but baptism is not one of them.


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## brutally honest (Apr 10, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> I disagree Jesus Christ is still with me on this Earth, He said He would be with me even till the end, do you believe He's not here?



I was referring to His physical body which left this earth 2,000 years ago.


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## brutally honest (Apr 10, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> An unnamed sinner woman was forgiven of her sins before and without water baptism Jesus said Her sins, which are many are forgiven . . . thy sins be forgiven . . . thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace Luke 7:36-50.



You can quote these Old Covenant conversions till you're blue in the face.  I already said Jesus could and did forgive people.  That doesn't change the fact that we're living under a New Covenant.  How many times do I need to say that?


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## brutally honest (Apr 10, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> The eunuch had to believe with all his heart before Philp baptized him Acts 8:37.



Yes, he did -- and then he was baptized.


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## brutally honest (Apr 10, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> Believing from the heart automatically produces the new birth Rom. 10:9, 10; 1 John 5:1.



Even for demons?

Luke 4:

33 And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice,
34 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God


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## brutally honest (Apr 10, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> Believing from the heart automatically produces the new birth Rom. 10:9, 10;



The apostle who wrote that also said we were baptized into Jesus death and that we are buried with Him by baptism into death.  (Rom 6)


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## brutally honest (Apr 10, 2022)

Madman said:


> You and I would most likely agree about many things, but baptism is not one of them.



I would say the same thing to BP.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 10, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> I would say the same thing to BP.


No you wouldn’t if that would have been the case you would have just posted it instead of a reply to my post every time.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 10, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Not assuming.  Baptism precedes salvation in Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38.


"and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins." I assuming it has to be in Jesus name only?


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## brutally honest (Apr 10, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> No you wouldn’t if that would have been the case you would have just posted it instead of a reply to my post every time.



I was just pointing out that we would probably agree on many things.


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## brutally honest (Apr 10, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> "and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins." I assuming it has to be in Jesus name only?



Father, Son and Holy Spirit according to Matthew 28.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 10, 2022)

The nobleman and his whole house were saved without baptism Jn. 4:49:53.

Mary Jews and Gentiles were saved both before and after the cross and nothing is said of baptism Jn. 7:31; 8:30, 31; 11:45; 12:11, 42; Acts 9:42; 11:21; 13:12, 43-48; 14:1; 17:4, 12, 34; 19:18.


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## brutally honest (Apr 10, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> The nobleman and his whole house were saved without baptism Jn. 4:49:53.
> 
> Mary Jews and Gentiles were saved both before and after the cross and nothing is said of baptism Jn. 7:31; 8:30, 31; 11:45; 12:11, 42;



Post 82


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## brutally honest (Apr 10, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> Acts 9:42; 11:21; 13:12, 43-48; 14:1; 17:4, 12, 34; 19:18.



All of these passages are very vague.  Almost no detail is given about any of them.  The word “repent” does not appear once in any of them.  I guess repentance is not necessary, either.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 10, 2022)

Paul was converted and baptized in the Spirit and healed before he was baptized in water Acts 9:17, 18.


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## brutally honest (Apr 10, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> Paul was converted and baptized in the Spirit and healed before he was baptized in water Acts 9:17, 18.



Acts 9 says none of that.  You're reading your beliefs into the text.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 10, 2022)

John said that water baptism was merely a "witness" or a testimony of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ 1 Jn. 5: 6-10.


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## brutally honest (Apr 10, 2022)

TITANIC:



Banjo Picker said:


> *BAPTISM NOT TO REMIT SINS*
> 
> _THE FOLLOWING FACTS PROVE THAT BAPTISM IS SYMBOLIC AND FIGURATIVE AND THAT IT DOES NOT REMIT ONE SIN:_
> 
> _No intelligent man can believe it remits sins._





ICEBERG:



brutally honest said:


> Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins ...


----------



## brutally honest (Apr 10, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> John said that water baptism was merely a "witness" or a testimony of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ 1 Jn. 5: 6-10.



It literally says nothing like that.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 10, 2022)

_The words salvation, faith, repent, forgive, sin, save, wash, justify, sanctify, clean, believe, purge, remission, redeem, blood, reconcile, and kindred words that are used of redemption, are used 3,322 times in Scripture and not once is water baptism stated as being necessary in any redemptive process before sins can be remitted._
On the other hand hundreds of Scriptures require blood, faith in the blood and a simple confession of sins to God to have sins remitted but never is baptism once hinted as an essential to redemption.


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## brutally honest (Apr 10, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> _The words salvation, faith, repent, forgive, sin, save, wash, justify, sanctify, clean, believe, purge, remission, redeem, blood, reconcile, and kindred words that are used of redemption, are used 3,322 times in Scripture and not once is water baptism stated as being necessary in any redemptive process before sins can be remitted._



Mark 16:16
Acts 2:38
1 Peter 3:21 (literally says in black and white "baptism doth also now save us")

Do you even read my posts?


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## Madman (Apr 11, 2022)

Ultimately it comes down to what have you been taught regarding baptism.

Does baptism regenerate, or is it simply a sign?

The Church teaches, and the Bible proves, the former.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 11, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Father, Son and Holy Spirit according to Matthew 28.


You quoted Acts 2:38 concerning baptism in the name of Jesus. I'd think if baptism does what you think it does, you'd want to have it performed in the way Acts 2:38 says to do it.

Concerning Paul, why would he not receive salvation the moment Jesus made him believe?


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## brutally honest (Apr 11, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> You quoted Acts 2:38 concerning baptism in the name of Jesus. I'd think if baptism does what you think it does, you'd want to have it performed in the way Acts 2:38 says to do it.



Fine with me.

Acts 2 - in Jesus name

Matthew 28 - Father, Son and Holy Spirit 

Mark 16 - just “be baptized” 

The Matthew 28 language seems to be dominant in church history but other language could certainly be used.


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## brutally honest (Apr 11, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Concerning Paul, why would he not receive salvation the moment Jesus made him believe?



Three days later, Ananias told him to “wash away thy sins” (Acts 22.)


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## j_seph (Apr 11, 2022)

Did the thief on the cross beside Jesus get taken down and baptized before he died?
When Jesus said this day you will be with me in paradise, did he lie to the thief?

If the first question is no, and the second question is a no then it seems that there is at least one in heaven that was not baptized. Being so, would Jesus only do this for 1 and not others? Probably not because he is no respecter of persons.


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## brutally honest (Apr 11, 2022)

j_seph said:


> Did the thief on the cross beside Jesus get taken down and baptized before he died?
> When Jesus said this day you will be with me in paradise, did he lie to the thief?
> 
> If the first question is no, and the second question is a no then it seems that there is at least one in heaven that was not baptized. Being so, would Jesus only do this for 1 and not others? Probably not because he is no respecter of persons.



You’re late to the party.  Go back and read the rest of the thread.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 11, 2022)

_Baptism is plainly taught as being figurative and not literally a cleansing from sin. Facts proving that it is an outward symbol and a figure of an inward work._

A.   John baptism was to "manifest" to Israel the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ Jn. 1:31. No baptism in water can literally be the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. So if it cannot be literal it has to be figurative if it means anything. Since it is clearly figurative in this case it has to be in all cases.


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## brutally honest (Apr 11, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> _Baptism is plainly taught as being figurative …_



What verses plainly teach this?


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 11, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> That didn’t seem to be a problem for the 3,000 in Acts 2 or the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8 or Paul in Acts 9 or Cornelius in Acts 10 or the Philippian jailer and his family in Acts 16.




Cornelus and his whole house were saved and baptized in the Spirit when Peter preached to them and afterward they were baptized in water to testify of their experiences Acts 10:44-48. These and other examples prove that baptism does not remit sins. But that it is an outward testimony of inward grace. This is why such testimony is just as valuable in the case of men who were not only saved but BAPTIZED in the HOLY SPIRIT BEFORE water baptism.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 11, 2022)

B. Christ went through His own death, burial, and resurrection in this figurative sense when He was baptized in order to fulfill righteousness Matt. 3:15-17. Since he was no sinner and He did not need to have any sins remitted His baptism was not for the remission of sins. What was it for except to testify of His own death, burial, and resurrection? It was certainly symbolic in His case. The same kind of baptism for believers testifies to the same thing, the fact of a death, burial, and resurrection of their own that they testify to, for they do literally die when they are baptized. If it is not literal action then it must be symbolic. If Christ was the one who literally died, was buried, and was resurrected, water-baptism must be a figurative act of this literal experience. Since Christ died for all men then all men died in Christ, that is Christ died to save all men that believe and His death provides redemption from the fall as men by faith appropriate these benefits. Although they did not literally die with Christ, nevertheless they can partake of real benefits because He died, BUT ANY BAPTISM IN WATER THEY GO THROUGH MUST BE SYMBOLIC ACTION TO TESTIFY THAT THEY REALLY BELIEVE IN THE DEATH, BURIAL, AND RESURRECTION OF CHRISTFOR THEM. The moment they believe the things for which Christ died they get the spiritual and physical blessings promised. The baptism can be a true testimony on their part. Otherwise if they testify by baptism that they have received such benefits they would be liars and hypocrites.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 11, 2022)

Matt. 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost:

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, meaning in view of My authority, I commission you with full power of attorney to carry on the work that I have started.
Great commission fourfold:

1 _Go_. This applies to all BELIEVERS not only preachers. The invitation to salvation is for all alike, so why should not the responsibility of getting the invitation to others be for all alike? We have the same rights, privileges, promises, and provision for equipment for service, so all should help in every possible way to evangelize the world according to our ability and direction from God. There is no excuse for millions of church members leaving this work to only a few who seek to obey the great commission.

2 _Teach._ To make disciples, enroll as a learner or pupil. Used only here and in 13:52; 27:57; Acts 14:21. Not the ordinary word for teaching as in point 4 below.
3. _Baptizing._

baptizing them meaning 
Mt. 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentances; but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and _with_ fire; 

REASONS FORGIVENESS NOT BY WATER:
1. Gr. eis, a preposition trans. with baptism unto (Mt. 3:11), and for (because of, by reason of, on account of) in Mk. 1:4; Lk. 3:3; Acts 2:38. Eis is translated for (because of) on and upon, it appears in "for the same purpose" (Rom. 9:17; Col. 4:8); "for this cause" Jn. 18:37; 1 Pet. 4:6); "for this purpose" (Acts 26:16; 1 Jn. 3:8); and "for that intent" (Acts 9:21).

2.  On all occasions confession of sins was required and was made before baptism (Mt. 3:8, 11; Mk. 1:5; Lk. 3:8-14).

3.  Only believers were baptized after repentance and faith in Christ (Mt. 28:19; Mk. 16:16; Acts 2:38, 41; 8:12, 13, 37; 16:14, 15, 31_33; 18:8; 19:1-7), and in some cases after receiving the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17, 18; 10:44-48).

4.  Christ who knew no sin was baptized. Christ submitted to baptism for two reasons;
1. To fulfill righteousness (v 15)
2. To be manifest to Israel (Jn. 1:31)

5.  Only a symbol of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ (1 Pet. 3:21).

6.  Not essential to salvation (1 Cor. 1:13).

7.  Faith in the blood of Christ brings remission of sins (26:28; Rom. 3:24, 25; 4:1-25; 5:1-11; 8:2; 10:4-10; 1 Cor. 15:1-5; Eph. 1:7; 2:8, 9; Gal. 3:19-29; Jn. 3:16; Acts 10:43; 13:38, 39; 1 Cor. 1:18-21; 1 Jn. 1:9; 5:1).

8.  O.T. saints including John and all in Lk. 1:15, 41, 46, 67; 2:25-38 who were filled with the Spirit, were saved without water baptism.

9.  Christ forgave sins without baptism (Mt. 9:1-7; Lk. 7:36-50; 18:9-14; 19:1-9; 23:43; Jn. 4:49-53; 7:31; 8:30, 31; 11:45; 12:11, 42; Acts 3:1-11, 16; 4:10-12).

10. It does not put away the filth of the flesh (1 Pet. 3:21).

4. _Teaching._ Giving instruction It is trans. teaching the idea here is more that of instructing than of enrolling disciples to be taught. 

in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and the Holy Ghost: meaning
Some argue that these are not names, but the dictionary says that the word name is "any word" or "title" by which any person or thing is know. This is just not any Father, any Son, or any Holy Ghost, but it is the Father of Jesus Christ , and the Son of the Father, and the Holy Ghost, the third person in the Divine Trinity. Any Bible reader would know who these three persons are if mentioned by these names in any scripture.


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## Ruger#3 (Apr 11, 2022)

I suppose the assumption is all those references where the person and their whole household were baptized is that they were all childless.


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## brutally honest (Apr 11, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> Cornelus and his whole house were saved and baptized in the Spirit when Peter preached to them and afterward they were baptized in water to testify of their experiences Acts 10:44-48.



You're reading an awful lot into those five verses.





Banjo Picker said:


> These and other examples prove that baptism does not remit sins.



You keep saying that, and Peter keeps slapping you in the face with Acts 2:38.





Banjo Picker said:


> But that it is an outward testimony of inward grace.



This sounds nice, and I've heard it for decades.  I've yet to hear anybody supply a Bible verse that says this, though.


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## brutally honest (Apr 11, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> B. Christ went through His own death, burial, and resurrection in this figurative sense when He was baptized in order to fulfill righteousness Matt. 3:15-17. Since he was no sinner and He did not need to have any sins remitted His baptism was not for the remission of sins. What was it for except to testify of His own death, burial, and resurrection? It was certainly symbolic in His case. The same kind of baptism for believers testifies to the same thing, the fact of a death, burial, and resurrection of their own that they testify to, for they do literally die when they are baptized. If it is not literal action then it must be symbolic. If Christ was the one who literally died, was buried, and was resurrected, water-baptism must be a figurative act of this literal experience. Since Christ died for all men then all men died in Christ, that is Christ died to save all men that believe and His death provides redemption from the fall as men by faith appropriate these benefits. Although they did not literally die with Christ, nevertheless they can partake of real benefits because He died, BUT ANY BAPTISM IN WATER THEY GO THROUGH MUST BE SYMBOLIC ACTION TO TESTIFY THAT THEY REALLY BELIEVE IN THE DEATH, BURIAL, AND RESURRECTION OF CHRISTFOR THEM. *The moment they believe the things for which Christ died they get the spiritual and physical blessings promised.*



Romans 6 says baptism, not belief, is that point:

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:


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## brutally honest (Apr 11, 2022)

Comments in blue:


Matt. 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost:

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, meaning in view of My authority, I commission you with full power of attorney to carry on the work that I have started.
Great commission fourfold:

1 _Go_. This applies to all BELIEVERS not only preachers. The invitation to salvation is for all alike, so why should not the responsibility of getting the invitation to others be for all alike? We have the same rights, privileges, promises, and provision for equipment for service, so all should help in every possible way to evangelize the world according to our ability and direction from God. There is no excuse for millions of church members leaving this work to only a few who seek to obey the great commission.

2 _Teach._ To make disciples, enroll as a learner or pupil. Used only here and in 13:52; 27:57; Acts 14:21. Not the ordinary word for teaching as in point 4 below.
3. _Baptizing._

baptizing them meaning 
Mt. 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentances; but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and _with_ fire; 

REASONS FORGIVENESS NOT BY WATER:
1. Gr. eis, a preposition trans. with baptism unto (Mt. 3:11), and for (because of, by reason of, on account of) in Mk. 1:4; Lk. 3:3; Acts 2:38. Eis is translated for (because of) *If it means "because", why doesn't somebody translate it that way?  No translation I've ever seen translates eis as "because".*  on and upon, it appears in "for the same purpose" (Rom. 9:17; Col. 4:8); "for this cause" Jn. 18:37; 1 Pet. 4:6); "for this purpose" (Acts 26:16; 1 Jn. 3:8); and "for that intent" (Acts 9:21).

2.  On all occasions confession of sins was required and was made before baptism (Mt. 3:8, 11; Mk. 1:5; Lk. 3:8-14).  *Post 82*

3.  Only believers were baptized after repentance and faith in Christ (Mt. 28:19; Mk. 16:16; Acts 2:38, 41; 8:12, 13, 37; 16:14, 15, 31_33; 18:8; 19:1-7), and in some cases after receiving the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17, 18; 10:44-48).

4.  Christ who knew no sin was baptized. Christ submitted to baptism for two reasons;
1. To fulfill righteousness (v 15)
2. To be manifest to Israel (Jn. 1:31)

5.  Only a symbol of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ (1 Pet. 3:21).  *Verse 20 and 21 says the flood is a symbol for baptism.  It doesn't say baptism is a symbol.*

6.  Not essential to salvation (1 Cor. 1:13).  *That verse says nothing like that.*

7.  Faith in the blood of Christ brings remission of sins (26:28; Rom. 3:24, 25; 4:1-25; 5:1-11; 8:2; 10:4-10; 1 Cor. 15:1-5; Eph. 1:7; 2:8, 9; Gal. 3:19-29; Jn. 3:16; Acts 10:43; 13:38, 39; 1 Cor. 1:18-21; 1 Jn. 1:9; 5:1).  *Peter slaps back with Acts 2:38.*

8.  O.T. saints including John and all in Lk. 1:15, 41, 46, 67; 2:25-38 who were filled with the Spirit, were saved without water baptism.  *Post 82*

9.  Christ forgave sins without baptism (Mt. 9:1-7; Lk. 7:36-50; 18:9-14; 19:1-9; 23:43; Jn. 4:49-53; 7:31; 8:30, 31; 11:45; 12:11, 42; Acts 3:1-11, 16; 4:10-12).  *Post 82*

10. It does not put away the filth of the flesh (1 Pet. 3:21).  *Correct.  It saves you by the resurrection of Christ.*

4. _Teaching._ Giving instruction It is trans. teaching the idea here is more that of instructing than of enrolling disciples to be taught.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 11, 2022)

Peter stated that baptism was a "figure" of the reality of the truths for which it stands 1 Pet. 3:21. The Greek for _figure is antitupon_ and is found only here and in Heb. 9:24 where Paul speaks of the earthly tabernacle, sacrifices, and offerings as being "figures of the true." The word _antitype_ means that which is represented or explained by the type. Baptism is therefore a form, a pattern, a figure, a symbol, and an example of the true death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus who died in the place of the believer. It has to be figurative in the case of believers for they did not literally die as did Christ. It is figurative illustration of the real, so there must be a real death, burial, and resurrection of which baptism is a mere figure. Peter speaks of baptism as being an _answer _or a witness of a good conscience. If Peter said that was a figure or a type representing something real of similar nature, that should settle the whole controversy. He makes it clear that it does not in itself save in the putting away of the filth of the flesh, plainly teaching that moral pollution in the soul is not cleansed by water. This is only done by blood Rev. 1:5; Heb. 9:22; 1 Jn. 1:7; Eph. 1:7.


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## brutally honest (Apr 11, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> Peter stated that baptism was a "figure" of the reality of the truths for which it stands



No, he did not.  He said the waters of the flood symbolized baptism.  Read it for yourself in whatever version you prefer.

1 Peter 3:20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In the ark a few people, only eight souls, were saved through water. (biblehub.com) 

1 Peter 3:21 And this water symbolizes the baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (biblehub.com)


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 11, 2022)

Peter is trying to show believers that salvation is more than washing a little dirt from the body. He is showing them that water baptism does not save the soul, and that it does not and cannot cleanse the soul of its filth, but that it is only the testimony of a good conscience. The filth of the flesh is stated in Gal. 5:19-21. These are the works of the old man that must be put away Eph. 2:22-24. Peter saw the danger that men would think that baptism would cleanse the soul hence he explained in parentheses that it did not. In spite of this explanation men are still ignorant of the truth of baptism. He also makes it clear that baptism does not make the conscience clean, but that it is the witness of a good conscience.


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## brutally honest (Apr 11, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> He is showing them that water baptism does not save the soul ...



Once again, you directly contradict Peter's plain statement that "baptism doth also now save us".  I'm not making this up.  It's there in black and white in post 117.

Here's a good synopsis of what I learned in my 8th grade English class:


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 11, 2022)

Paul makes a distinction between having the heart sprinkled (Not baptized) from and evil conscience and our bodies washed in pure water. Here two things are done: the heart is cleansed, and the body is washed. Washing the body must refer to baptism, as the New Testament does not recognize any other washing of the whole body by water except in baptism. The sprinkling from an evil conscience is done by the blood 1 Pet. 1:2 and it could not have reference to the body being washed in baptism. Anyone who tries to make the sprinkling from evil conscience the same work as baptism contradicts Paul and all Scripture. Sprinkling of the heart by blood is an inward work and washing the body in water is certainly an outward work. Washing the body by baptism then must be symbolic of the inward work.


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## Madman (Apr 11, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> Matt. 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost:
> 
> Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, meaning in view of My authority, I commission you with full power of attorney to carry on the work that I have started.
> Great commission fourfold:
> ...


BP there is a lot here to digest.  We disagree on a lot here.  In Mat. 28, Christ is speaking to his 11 disciples, he is sending out the leaders of his church to baptize, teach, disciple. 

These were the original bishops, who have the responsibility of teaching faith EXACTLY as it had been given to them.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 11, 2022)

Acts 22:16
And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’

What was "his" name?


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 11, 2022)

"the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles" 

If Paul was called by Jesus on the road to Damascus, it seems odd to me that he didn't have salvation until he was baptized.


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## gemcgrew (Apr 12, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Acts 22:16
> And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’
> 
> What was "his" name?


"For there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

There is a baptism that saves a man... and man contributes nothing to it.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 12, 2022)

Reading through Romans 6;
"all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?"
"We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life."

Romans 6:5 I'm not sure about. Too many variations.
"For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his."

"For if we have been united with Him like this in His death, we will certainly also be united with Him in His resurrection."

The second one seems more like what I'm thinking it means. I think the whole passage is related to the Unity we receive through Jesus at "salvation," when we were baptized into Jesus through his death.
Jesus was then raised from that death through the glory of his Father.
It's the unity we receive through the death of Christ. We were united by his death and resurrection. Meaning it's already happened. We are now united with Christ.
It's true we will have a death and resurrection like his but this is not what this passage is about. Because in this passage Romans 6:4 says;
We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

We've already been buried, we already have a new life.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 12, 2022)

Paul definitely says "that sins of the flesh" were put off by "the circumcision made without hands . . . by the circumcision of Christ" Col. 2:11-13. Thus sins are put away by circumcision _without hands_ and is spiritual so it could not be water-baptism, which is performed _with hands_ and is physical. He affirms that the real circumcision is of the heart and in the Spirit Rom. 2:28, 29. If this be true then it could not come by mere baptism of the flesh in water. The baptism referred to in Col. 2:12 is the same as the baptism into Christ of Gal. 3:27 and the baptism into Christ of Rom 6 and the baptism into the body of Christ of 1 Cor. 12:13. Not one of these passages refers to water, but to the baptism of the believer into Christ and into His body by the Holy Spirit. Christ is the element one is baptized into by the Spirit in this case, while in water-baptism the water is the element the believer is baptized into by the minister. The baptism in Col. 2:12 is done _by the operation of God and not by_ man as it plainly states, while water-baptism is done _by the operation of man_ and not by God, as is clear to anyone. One must be careful in reading each passage to understand what kind of baptism is referred to who does the baptizing, and what elements is used in the baptism and then each passage will be clear. In Gal. 3>27 it is a baptism _into Christ_ and not _into water._ In Rom. 6 it is a baptism _into Christ_ and _into to His death_ and not_ into water._ In 1 Cor. 12:13 it is a baptism_ into the body of Christ_ and not into _water._ All these baptisms are of a spiritual nature, not physical.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 12, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> Paul definitely says "that sins of the flesh" were put off by "the circumcision made without hands . . . by the circumcision of Christ" Col. 2:11-13. Thus sins are put away by circumcision _without hands_ and is spiritual so it could not be water-baptism, which is performed _with hands_ and is physical. He affirms that the real circumcision is of the heart and in the Spirit Rom. 2:28, 29. If this be true then it could not come by mere baptism of the flesh in water. The baptism referred to in Col. 2:12 is the same as the baptism into Christ of Gal. 3:27 and the baptism into Christ of Rom 6 and the baptism into the body of Christ of 1 Cor. 12:13. Not one of these passages refers to water, but to the baptism of the believer into Christ and into His body by the Holy Spirit. Christ is the element one is baptized into by the Spirit in this case, while in water-baptism the water is the element the believer is baptized into by the minister. The baptism in Col. 2:12 is done _by the operation of God and not by_ man as it plainly states, while water-baptism is done _by the operation of man_ and not by God, as is clear to anyone. One must be careful in reading each passage to understand what kind of baptism is referred to who does the baptizing, and what elements is used in the baptism and then each passage will be clear. In Gal. 3>27 it is a baptism _into Christ_ and not _into water._ In Rom. 6 it is a baptism _into Christ_ and _into to His death_ and not_ into water._ In 1 Cor. 12:13 it is a baptism_ into the body of Christ_ and not into _water._ All these baptisms are of a spiritual nature, not physical.


That's the way I see it as explained in Romans 6 as well. Why do you suppose Jesus got baptized by hands as well as the mention in scripture where others were baptized by hands as well?

I wonder if it has something to do with the Jewish custom? Also in the Jewish custom, prior to Jesus physically coming, did they baptize each other?


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 12, 2022)

Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.. *Act 2: 38* 

If one does repent and is baptized, for forgiveness of sins, would one need to get re-baptized every time he repents? This question is more geared to those who see repentance as a constant need for salvation. Why would one not need to get re-baptist every time they repent?

I was just wondering if anyone believes they needed to get baptized more than once?


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## brutally honest (Apr 12, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> Paul definitely says "that sins of the flesh" were put off by "the circumcision made without hands . . . by the circumcision of Christ" Col. 2:11-13. Thus sins are put away by circumcision _without hands_ and is spiritual so it could not be water-baptism, which is performed _with hands_ and is physical.



What’s wrong with “physical”?  God physically created the universe.  Jesus physically walked the earth.  He physically died, was  buried and was resurrected.  This aversion to the physical world is a Gnostic belief, not Christian.


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## gordon 2 (Apr 12, 2022)

Whole lot of tree shaking going on...

If you could not read and did not really pay attention to the peacher and someone came up to you and said, " Baptism removes orginal sin" then logic would demand the question, " What was original sin?" Next if someone was able to read in Genesis the account of the original sin it would reveal that the original sin, the fact of it, was getting wisdom from the tree of good and evil... instead of getting wisdom from God alone.

Next reason alone would indicate that Baptism in Christ as an item of grace( God sent) is in fact a dying to the feeding from the tree of the Wisdom of good and evil and the offer( fact) of a rebirth so as to seek to eat from the tree of life ONLY!

So Baptism is a gift from God so an individual can latch onto the other gifts of God due a significant change in spiritual nature which is that God introduces himself spiritually as the true-loving source of life in greatest opposition to the effect of original sin.


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## brutally honest (Apr 12, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> The baptism referred to in Col. 2:12 is the same as the baptism into Christ of Gal. 3:27 and the baptism into Christ of Rom 6 and the baptism into the body of Christ of 1 Cor. 12:13. Not one of these passages refers to water ...



I’ve heard this argument before.  It sounded ridiculous then, and it sounds ridiculous now. Your theology is based on eisegesis:  reading your beliefs into the scripture.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 12, 2022)

We were crucified buried and resurrected "WITH HIM" and when we "reckon" by faith the benefits for which Christ died we get the spiritual experience in our lives Rom. 6:1-13; Gal. 3:27-29; Eph. 2:5-10; Col. 2:1-13; 1 Cor. 12:13; 6:9-11. Since baptism is not a physical death, burial, and resurrection on our part, then it must be a FIGURATIVE and SYMBOLIC action if we ever go through any form picturing the reality of Christ work. With Christ it was a literal death but with us it can only be figurative by going through water-baptism.


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## Madman (Apr 12, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> We were crucified buried and resurrected "WITH HIM" and when we "reckon" by faith the benefits for which Christ died we get the spiritual experience in our lives Rom. 6:1-13; Gal. 3:27-29; Eph. 2:5-10; Col. 2:1-13; 1 Cor. 12:13; 6:9-11. Since baptism is not a physical death, burial, and resurrection on our part, then it must be a FIGURATIVE and SYMBOLIC action if we ever go through any form picturing the reality of Christ work. With Christ it was a literal death but with us it can only be figurative by going through water-baptism.


I don’t hear the language of symbolism being used in Holy Scripture, I hear the language of dying to self, literally dying to self, the death of the old man, the literal death of the old man, and the rising of new.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 12, 2022)

I think some of it is scriptural and some of it is physical. We don't have to die physically to be born again. Christ did that death for us.
Likewise we don't have to enter our mother's womb to be born again. It's a spiritual death, It's a spiritual rebirth. Christ has already did both physically which enables us to do it spiritually.

Two births, one is physical and one is spiritual.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 13, 2022)

_BIBLE EVIDENCE DISPROVING SALVATION BY WATER-BAPTISM_

The "water" in John 3:5 refers to the Word of God as proved in Jn. 15:3; 17:17; Eph. 5:26; Rom. 1:16; 1 Pet. 1:18-23; James 1:18. It is by the Word of God and the Holy Spirit that men are born again. The new birth is a spiritual one and not physical as Nicodemus thought. No statement in any Scripture even hints that natural water could affect a spiritual birth. Therefore since we have many plain statements that water is symbolic of cleansing by the Word of God why not be consistent and take John 3:5 as referring to the Word of God? No other scripture can be given to support the idea of natural water in John 3:5 so that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.
  Nicodemus certainly could and did understand water-baptism for John had been baptizing for many months by this time. If he understood Jesus as referring to such baptism he would have had no question about the new birth. Jesus had to explain to him that He did not refer to natural things but to spiritual Jn. 3:6, 8, 12. Is it possible that Jesus could not make Nicodemus understand such a simple thing as water-baptism when he already understood this part of the gospel?


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## brutally honest (Apr 13, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> No statement in any Scripture even hints that natural water could affect a spiritual birth.



Except for every single one I've provided.




Banjo Picker said:


> ... we have many plain statements that water is symbolic ...



We have zero plain statements that water is symbolic.  If there were any, you would have provided them by now.


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## j_seph (Apr 13, 2022)

If someone gets baptized in say a creek or river, are some of y'all saying that the water your submerged in finishes the salvation process?


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## brutally honest (Apr 13, 2022)

j_seph said:


> If someone gets baptized in say a creek or river, are some of y'all saying that the water your submerged in finishes the salvation process?



Mark 1:4
Mark 16:16
Luke 3:3
Matthew 28:19
Acts 2:38
Acts 22:16

I've lost track of how many times I've posted this.


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## j_seph (Apr 13, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Mark 1:4
> Mark 16:16
> Luke 3:3
> Matthew 28:19
> ...


Simple yes or no please, thanks


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## NE GA Pappy (Apr 13, 2022)

j_seph said:


> If someone gets baptized in say a creek or river, are some of y'all saying that the water your submerged in finishes the salvation process?



can you use a swimming pool?  does chlorinated water work better or worse than spring water? does pure mountain water work better than Okeydokey swamp water?

I think sometimes we get distracted from the real issues and poke and prod at each other over matters that are minor in comparison


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## brutally honest (Apr 13, 2022)

j_seph said:


> Simple yes or no please, thanks



If you’ve read the thread (as I asked you to before), you wouldn’t be asking this.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 13, 2022)

Surely there is nothing so mysterious about being immersed in water that this learned master in Israel could not understand. All the people of Judea understood water-baptism for they went out to see John baptism Mt. 3:5, 6. In no place are we told that men are saved and cleansed by natural water, but we are repeatedly told that men are cleansed by the Word of God and the blood of Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit 1 Cor. 6:11; 1 Jn. 1:7; Rev. 1:5; Eph. 5:26; Jn. 15:3. This is what is meant in Titus 3:5, 6 by the "washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, which he [God, not some human baptizer in water] shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ." God sheds this upon men while in water-baptism men plunge candidates into water. Sins are actually washed by the blood Rev. 1:5; 7:14; 1 Jn. 1:7, but they are symbolically washed in water as a testimony to the world of inward cleansing 1 Pet. 3:21Acts 22:16.


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## brutally honest (Apr 13, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> ... but they are symbolically washed in water as a testimony to the world of inward cleansing 1 Pet. 3:21Acts 22:16.



Neither of these verses say what you say they say.  It's not an issue of interpretation.  You're just ignoring the plain text in black and white.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 13, 2022)

The washing away of sins by baptism in Acts 22:16 refers to symbolical washing, like the ceremonial cleansings of lepers in Lev. 14. The leper had to be cleansed already from leprosy before he was symbolically washed of his leprosy. Washing was only a testimony of his cleansing Mt. 8:1-4. Such washing away of sins must be understood in the same sense that "garments" are made white in the blood of the Lamb. Rev. 7:13, 14. No literal garments are referred to being washed in literal blood, for in Rev. 19:8 the garments are explained to be the righteousness of the saints. Sins are no more cleansed by water than garments are in blood. Both are figurative statements. Blood cannot whiten garments and water cannot cleanse from sin. This if taken literally would be to give efficacy to blood and water which they do not possess. The Bible in no place ascribes power to blood to make garments white or to water to cleanse from sin.


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## Madman (Apr 13, 2022)

j_seph said:


> If someone gets baptized in say a creek or river, are some of y'all saying that the water your submerged in finishes the salvation process?


No.  Where would you get that idea?


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## j_seph (Apr 13, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> can you use a swimming pool?  does chlorinated water work better or worse than spring water? does pure mountain water work better than Okeydokey swamp water?
> 
> I think sometimes we get distracted from the real issues and poke and prod at each other over matters that are minor in comparison


I was just curious, if someone believed that then what happened to those downstream of the one getting baptized.


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## Madman (Apr 14, 2022)

Baptism is a sacrament which Is both a sign and cause of grace.

“they effect what they signify.”
St. Thomas Aquinas


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 14, 2022)

In Fact, Acts 22:16 is not a detailed account of Paul's experience . In Acts 9:9-19 it is clear that he was already cleansed from sins and healed and baptized in the Holy Spirit before he was baptized in water. Thus his baptism was simply a symbolical washing of his sins, like it is in the case of all others. People who believe in baptismal-regeneration claim that God does not hear prayers of sinners. Therefore, since God heard Paul before he was baptized then they would have to acknowledge that he was a saved man before he was baptized or he would not have had his prayers heard.


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## brutally honest (Apr 14, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> In Fact, Acts 22:16 is not a detailed account of Paul's experience . In Acts 9:9-19 it is clear that *he was already cleansed from sins* and healed and baptized in the Holy Spirit *before* he was baptized in water.




Acts 22:16

“And now why tarriest thou? arise, and *be baptized, and wash away thy sins*, calling on the name of the Lord.”


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 14, 2022)

Paul's own testimony proves he was saved by faith in the blood not by having literal water applied to his body Rom. 3:24, 25; 5:1; 6:1-13; 7:4; 8:1, 2; Heb. 9:22. The word "Arise" in Acts 22:16 was after he was already saved healed and baptized in the Spirit as is clear in Acts 9:17, 18. The phrase "wash away thy sins" refers to ceremonial cleansing which bore witness to inward cleansing, as we have already proved. The Greek _apolouo_ means to wash or to figuratively remit sins that is bathe the body like in the Old Testament after real cleansing had already taken place Lev. 14:1-57; 15:1-35. The word is used only in Acts 22:16 and in 1 Cor. 6:11 where it is clear that cleansing from sin is done by the Holy Ghost and the blood.


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## brutally honest (Apr 14, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> Paul's own testimony proves he was saved by faith in the blood not by having literal water applied to his body Rom. 3:24, 25; 5:1; 6:1-13; 7:4; 8:1, 2; Heb. 9:22. The word "Arise" in Acts 22:16 was after he was already saved healed and baptized in the Spirit as is clear in Acts 9:17, 18. The phrase "wash away thy sins" refers to ceremonial cleansing which bore witness to inward cleansing, as we have already proved. The Greek _apolouo_ means to wash or to figuratively remit sins that is bathe the body like in the Old Testament after real cleansing had already taken place Lev. 14:1-57; 15:1-35. The word is used only in Acts 22:16 and in 1 Cor. 6:11 where it is clear that cleansing from sin is done by the Holy Ghost and the blood.



The mental gymnastics you have to perform to explain away a simple, clear statement like Acts 22:16 are amazing.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 15, 2022)

Ananias, a Jew was well acquainted with real cleansings by faith in the blood and of ceremonial washings after such cleansing and it was equally clear to Paul, another Jew, what he meant by washing away sins in water. Paul never dreamed that men would mistake his words to mean real sins were cleansed by water. He knew that the Jews to whom he was speaking in Acts 22 would understand what washings of the body were for. They were all familiar with symbolic washings of the body of pots, pans, and everything that had to do with religion. Israelites were told to "wash" themselves that they might be saved Isa. 1:16-18; Jer. 4:14. They were also told that if they would wash their bodies with nitre and much soap they could not cleanse themselves from sins Jer. 2:22. The process of salvation was the same in the Old as in the New Testament, as there was no water baptism by immersion before the cross whereby they could wash themselves of their sins, such is not necessary today to get rid of sin. Israel did have symbolic washings but they were not the same as baptism now. It was the blood then that made the atonement for the soul, as it is today Lev. 17:11; Heb. 9:22; 11:4; you have seen, washings did not cleanse in either Testament but they were symbolic of real cleansings that had to be completed before the ceremonial cleansing.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 29, 2022)

Paul did not believe or teach baptismal-regeneration or that it was necessary to be baptized to be saved and have sins remitted. He even thanked God that he had baptized none of the Corinthians except Crispus and Gaius and the house of Stephanas. He stated that God had not sent him to baptize but to preach the gospel which when men believe they were saved 1 Cor. 1:13-24; 15:1-5; Rom. 1:16; 10:9-14; Eph. 2:8, 9. This certainly puts baptism in its proper place as a symbol of cleansing and not essential to save the soul.


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## brutally honest (Apr 30, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> Paul did not believe or teach baptismal-regeneration or that it was necessary to be baptized to be saved and have sins remitted. He even thanked God that he had baptized none of the Corinthians except Crispus and Gaius and the house of Stephanas. He stated that God had not sent him to baptize but to preach the gospel which when men believe they were saved 1 Cor. 1:13-24; 15:1-5; Rom. 1:16; 10:9-14; Eph. 2:8, 9. This certainly puts baptism in its proper place as a symbol of cleansing and not essential to save the soul.


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## gemcgrew (Apr 30, 2022)

Someone greater than John the Baptist came... and He baptized with Something greater than water.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 30, 2022)

Jesus never taught baptism as the means of salvation. Not one time did He command one person to be baptized in all His ministry. He forgave multitudes of sins and healed them without baptism. He never baptized one person Himself. This work of testimony was left to His disciples but the work for which baptism testifies was done exclusively by Him John 4:2. If baptism was so all important to save the soul He certainly would have made at least one reference to that fact. If the gospel He preached is the truth, then salvation by baptism is another gospel and should be rejected. Where could we find the true method of forgiveness except it be the words and acts of Jesus Himself? If we do not find baptism as the essential to remit sins, then we should not teach something that He did not advocate.


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## brutally honest (Apr 30, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> Jesus never taught baptism as the means of salvation. Not one time did He command one person to be baptized in all His ministry.... If baptism was so all important to save the soul He certainly would have made at least one reference to that fact.



Did you read what you just posted?

Jesus Christ:

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"  - Matthew 28:19

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved"  - Mark 16:16


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## Ruger#3 (Apr 30, 2022)

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


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## Banjo Picker (Apr 30, 2022)

The apostles practiced baptism from the beginning of Christ's ministry John 3:22-26; 4:2. Baptism in _the great commission_ was an enlargement of the ordinance among all nations for the same purpose that it was for in the days of John and Jesus AND NOT ONE TIME ARE WE TOLD IT WAS TO REMIT SINS. Jesus gave a true method of forgiveness as faith in Him John 1:12; 3:14-18, 36; 4:24; 6:28, 29, 40; Matt. 9:1-7; Mk. 2:1-12; Lk. 5:18-26; 7:35-50.


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## brutally honest (Apr 30, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> ... AND NOT ONE TIME ARE WE TOLD IT WAS TO REMIT SINS.



" ... the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.  And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;"  - Luke 3:2-3

"John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins."  - Mark 1:4

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins ..."  - Acts 2:38


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## Banjo Picker (May 17, 2022)

In Acts 19:1-6 Paul rebaptizes twelve disciples of John who had already been baptized by his baptism. If baptism in water is to remit sins, when this is twice that the same sins were remitted and this is impossible. We either have to believe that their sins were remitted twice or believe that John's baptism was not remit sins and in this case most doctrines attempting to prove baptismal regeneration are refuted. If John's baptism was not for this purpose, then Christian baptism is also not for this purpose for the same terms are used of both baptisms (Mk. 1:4; Acts 2:38). Whatever position we take such a theory must be abandoned that baptism remits sins, for all Scripture is contrary to the theory. The right view is that baptism does not remit sins but that it is an outward symbol of the inward spiritual work of cleansing the soul from sin by faith in the blood of Christ. If we hold that remission of sins is the only purpose of baptism, then it may be asked why did Jesus get baptized? Why did not Paul think it important in 1 Cor. 1:10-18? Why were the sins of Cornelius and house, and those of Paul and others remitted without and before their baptism in water as is clear in Acts 9:17, 18; 10:44-48? Why did not many of the Old Testament days, in the days of Christ on Earth, the thief on the cross, and many others have to be baptized in order to be saved? How could disciples of John whose sins were remitted have the same sins remitted again by the disciples of Christ? Why would the apostles ignore the work of God in baptism in remitting sins of John's disciples and why would they violate the laws of God and rebaptize them over again? Why did John violate the law of God in baptizing Christ to remit His sins when He had no sins to remit. Why did Christ willing to be classed as a sinner having His sins remitted? What righteousness did Christ fulfill in baptism since it could not be remission of sins in His case? Baptism in His case could not be moral cleansing, but symbolic of His own death. It must have been ceremonial righteousness, not moral, in His case. Aron and other priests were washed and anointed in entering their office so this must be another reason Christ was baptized.


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## brutally honest (May 17, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> ... baptism does not remit sins ...



You seem impervious to scripture, but here goes anyway:


" ... the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness. And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;" - Luke 3:2-3

"John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins." - Mark 1:4

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins ..." - Acts 2:38





Banjo Picker said:


> ... it is an outward symbol of the inward spiritual work ...



There is no scripture that says anything like this.


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## Banjo Picker (May 17, 2022)

All the texts used to prove baptismal remission of sins do not say that sins are remitted by water baptism. They make it very clear that men had to confess sins and bring forth proof of repentance before they were worthy of baptism (Matt. 3:6-8, 11; Mk. 1:4, 5; Lk. 3:3, 8-16; Acts 2:38). These citations and Mark 16:16 all prove that repentance, restitution, and faith precede baptism. These things bring salvation and baptism testifies to this work of true consecration.


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## brutally honest (May 17, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> All the texts used to prove baptismal remission of sins do not say that sins are remitted by water baptism.



The verses I listed above say exactly that.  The people went out to a river and were baptized for the remission of sins. 




Banjo Picker said:


> These citations and Mark 16:16 all prove that repentance, restitution, and faith precede baptism.



Agreed, but they don't say salvation precedes baptism.

There are six passages in the NT where baptism and salvation are mentioned in the same verse.  Baptism precedes salvation in each one of them.

Mark 1:4
Mark 16:16
Luke 3:3
Acts 2:38
Acts 22:16
1 Peter 3:21




Banjo Picker said:


> These things bring salvation and baptism testifies to this work of true consecration.



This is your interpretation.  No passage in scripture says this.


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## Banjo Picker (May 17, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> The verses I listed above say exactly that.  The people went out to a river and were baptized for the remission of sins.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, and you need to learn what baptismal is of water and which are of the Holy Ghost the Scriptures can not be used against one another.


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## brutally honest (May 17, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> Yes, and you need to learn what baptismal is of water and which are of the Holy Ghost the Scriptures can not be used against one another.



What baptism is being spoken of in these verses?

Mark 1:4
Mark 16:16
Luke 3:3
Acts 2:38
Acts 8:38
Acts 10:47
Acts 22:16
1 Peter 3:21


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## Banjo Picker (May 19, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> What baptism is being spoken of in these verses?
> 
> Mark 1:4
> Mark 16:16
> ...



You have my post on this thread and look at the thread posted baptism in the Holy Ghost and compare them and you will know.


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## Madman (May 19, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> What baptism is being spoken of in these verses?
> 
> Mark 1:4
> Mark 16:16
> ...


I like Banjo, he really believes what he believes, but sometimes 'tis better to have another glass of sweet tea and forget it.


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## brutally honest (May 19, 2022)

Madman said:


> I like Banjo, he really believes what he believes, but sometimes 'tis better to have another glass of sweet tea and forget it.



Yes.  I was just trying to insert an actual discussion into the Spiritual Copy & Paste forum.


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## Banjo Picker (May 20, 2022)

The Greek preposition _eis _translated for these passages means any number of things. On page 110, _The New Archeological Discoveries and their Bearing Upon the New Testament _by Camden M. Cobern, says, "It was counted equally certain that every preposition had some divine meaning in the sacred text, so that to change one for the other would amount almost to sacrilege . . . This old opinion has been badly damaged by recent discoveries; for we find the new prepositions . . . used freely in the vernacular of the early centuries by the non-Jewish populations, and we fail to find the inflexibility in the use of prepositions which theologians and grammarians of a generation ago assumed. The interchange of _eis_ and _en_ is frequent in the papyri, and only the context can determine the usage . . . it does suggest that theological conclusions must be taken with care.

In _Hudson's Greek Concordance_ we find that _eis_ is translated into to, unto toward, at, before, on, upon, in, among, throughout, by, with, for, concerning, against, till, until, thereunto, therein, for this same purpose, whereunto, for this purpose, and many other ways. It can be seen that to be dogmatic and say that _eis_ could mean only _unto_ in baptismal passages is to be foolish and unfair in the extreme. It is translated _for_ in these passages and in eighty-two Scriptures and anyone knows that the primary meaning of _for is because of or on account of._ The above passage on baptism should read "because of remission of sins," that is because sins have been remitted, one should be baptized as a testimony of the spiritual work of grace in his life. Note the following of _for_ in Scripture in which _because of _or _on account of _is the true meaning. Thye would not make sense if they are read _unto_ instead of _for_ or_ because of,_ as can be seen by the reader.

"Salt . . . is thenceforth good _unto _nothing Matt. 5:13; Lk. 14:35.
"Take not thought _unto_ tomorrow Matt. 6:34.
"Offer the gift Moses commanded _unto_ a testimony unto them" Matt. 8:4.
"Nor script _unto_ your journey" Matt. 10:10; Lk. 9:3.
"Gospel . . . preached _unto_ a witness unto all nations" Matt. 24:14.
"That this woman hath done be told _unto_ a memorial of her" Matt. 26:13.
"Blood . . . shed for many _unto_ remission of sins" Matt. 26:28.
Baptism of repentance _unto_ remission of sins Mk. 1:4; Lk. 3:3.
"Shake the dust under your feet _unto_ a testimony unto them" Mk. 6:11.
"Thine alms are come up _unto_ a memorial before God" Acts 10:4.
"Jews laid wait _unto _the man" Acts 23:30.

It can be seen _for, because of, or on account of_ would make a better sense than the word _unto. _this is just why fifty-four of the greatest scholars of England translated the baptismal Scriptures _for_ the remission of sins instead of _unto_ the remission of sins. This proves that because sins are remitted by repentance and faith men ought to be baptized as a testimony to the world of their new faith and experience in Christ.


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## Banjo Picker (May 21, 2022)

The Revised Version in Matt. 3:11; Mk. 1:4; Acts 2:38 translates _eis_ as _unto,_ but why did not these revisers show some consistency and translate the same preposition _unto_ in Rom. 6:1-11; 1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:27? If this was the correct idea, we would have to believe that we are not in Christ and in His body. We would have to believe that we are baptized only UNTO Christ, UNTO His death, and UNTO death, UNTO one body, UNTO one Spirit, and UNTO Christ (Rom. 6:1, 7; 1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:27). In such case men would never get INTO Christ, but only UNTO Him. This would contradict 2 Cor. 5:17.


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## Ruger#3 (May 21, 2022)

“Once you've decided that something's absolutely true, you've closed your mind on it, and a closed mind doesn't go anywhere. ...”


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## Banjo Picker (May 21, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> “Once you've decided that something's absolutely true, you've closed your mind on it, and a closed mind doesn't go anywhere. ...”



And the truth shall set you free, praise the Lord Jesus Christ.


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## gemcgrew (May 21, 2022)

Religious men emphasized physical circumcision, while hiding from spiritual circumcision. Religious men today emphasize physical baptism, while hiding from spiritual baptism. 

They lack a work on the heart and don't want others to know it.


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## Madman (May 22, 2022)

It is evident that sacraments and sacramentals are not understood by many.

It is sad to see the abandonment of the graces God has provided for his people.

Emotionalism is the new sacrament.


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## Ruger#3 (May 22, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> And the truth shall set you free, praise the Lord Jesus Christ.



And there in lies the matter. If the Lord fills my life with his blessing, enriches our relationship and rewards good works and makes me feel my salvation is given no man will come between me and my God. Believe what you want but don’t try to sell me its the only path to salvation.

The early churches made some horrible mistakes, they were men after all. That changes nothing in the sacraments, what man’s table will the next reformation spring from. We’ll have a new quoter of chapter and verse just as sure and certain.


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## gemcgrew (May 22, 2022)

Or the believer sees the emptiness of ritualism/sacramentalism and understands it to be the workings of carnal religion, a satisfying of the flesh.


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## Madman (May 22, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> The early churches made some horrible mistakes,



Not as many as the modern off shoots.  There was and is a mechanism to quell those who strike out, 500 years ago the opportunity was afforded those individuals who think they are smarter than the Church as a whole.



Ruger#3 said:


> That changes nothing in the sacraments, what man’s table will the next reformation spring from. We’ll have a new quoter of chapter and verse just as sure and certain.



It has already began. All one has to do is listen to the radio on Sunday morning and listen to the continual nonsense that spews from the “pastor” mouths.


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## Madman (May 22, 2022)

Anything that points man to God is good, therein is the purpose of the Church.  Modern churches point man to themselves, the modern emotionalism is man driven that takes one’s focus off of the Holy God.

The belief the “Jesus is my boy friend” is the modern worship.


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## Ruger#3 (May 22, 2022)

Madman said:


> Anything that points man to God is good, therein is the purpose of the Church.  Modern churches point man to themselves, the modern emotionalism is man driven that takes one’s focus off of the Holy God.
> 
> The belief the “Jesus is my boy friend” is the modern worship.



Amen!


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## brutally honest (May 22, 2022)

Madman said:


> … “Jesus is my boy friend”



The dreaded “Beth Moore effect”.


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## brutally honest (May 22, 2022)

Israel said:


> Yes.
> 
> Looking to things as, and for assurance(s) is all of backwards. The "things" have meaning only in and through Christ, who is our only assurance...and to which we are always directed as source and revelator of such assurance.
> 
> ...


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## Madman (May 22, 2022)

Nothing better than the practice of eternity by entering into the very throne room of heaven at every Mass.


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## gordon 2 (May 22, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> Or the believer sees the emptiness of ritualism/sacramentalism and understands it to be the workings of carnal religion, a satisfying of the flesh.



Was the problem with the Jews during Jesus' day that they were ritual and sacramental or that they were biblical? I would suggest that it was not their sacramentals and rituals, after all Jesus participated in these. The problem was their bible culture...which propped up a carnal faith to satisfy the flesh.

In their schemes to remain in God's favor the bible was made to justify their fear of loosing God's blessings and so the innocent and the outsider suffered and so their faith worked at the opposite of God's will for them. So it was not their rituals and sacramentals which were carnal but it was the works that proceeded from their interpretations of scripture. Now we know that not all Jews were in this error of using the bible to justify their unrighteousness.

Nevertheless this was  a pronouncement of the leadership of their faith:

"You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”

And this was the pronouncement of our faith in Christ:

"He that committeth sin is of the devil, for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil."

The devil knows to quote scripture it is said and so it must like it for its purpose, but the devil is not fond of rituals and sacramentals it is suggested in common culture. There must be somethings real in the rituals and sacramentals that the common faith knows by which the devil cannot twist as easily as scripture to its designs maybe.

Jesus said of the faith leaders:


"They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them."

They said the bible says or in the book of xxxx we find. We say the Lord says or Paul or James said and in Christ we find.

My point is that the Jews were bible based and this got them in trouble, and not so much that they were in worship into sacramentals or rituals. They were into guidance via commandments, laws and ordinances and sadly in significant cases totally missed out on the Holy Spirit and the real wisdom from God in scripture which was on earth in the  flesh as Christ our Lord. They knew him not.

They read scripture with carnal minds... to serve to justify carnal concerns...


" I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham."

I can only conclude that the account of Abraham in scripture had one lesson for Jesus and another very different for his foils. They did from "the word of God" what was in fact not His word at all.


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## Banjo Picker (May 22, 2022)

In the case of Cornelius, he was told to send for Peter who would tell him words whereby he and his house would be saved (Acts 10:6; 11:13, 14). There is not one reference to baptism in water to be saved (Acts 10:34-43). Baptism was not even brought up until after he was saved and baptized in the Holy Ghost (Acts 10:44-48). Thus, baptism is not in _the words_ whereby one must be saved, but because their sins had been remitted and they had been baptized in the Holy Ghost. We have Peter's own words that God granted to the Gentiles salvation repentance unto life, the Spirit- baptism and heart purity by faith without and before water baptism (Acts 11:13-18; 15:7-11). If this is how the Gentiles got saved then this is how the Jews got saved at Pentecost and we must understand Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 in this light baptism being mentioned as an act of obedience to testify that one is saved. Naturally the requirement of Salvation should be mentioned at the same time that is, that whosoever believeth in Him shall receive  remission of sins (Acts 10:43; 13:38, 39; 16:31; Jn. 3:14-18, 36; 5:24; 1 Jn. 5:1; Rom. 1:16; 3:21-31; 10:9, 10; 1 Cor. 1:13-24).


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## brutally honest (May 22, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> In the case of Cornelius, he was told to send for Peter who would tell him words whereby he and his house would be saved (Acts 10:6; 11:13, 14). There is not one reference to baptism in water to be saved (Acts 10:34-43). Baptism was not even brought up until after he was saved and baptized in the Holy Ghost (Acts 10:44-48). Thus, baptism is not in _the words_ whereby one must be saved, but because their sins had been remitted and they had been baptized in the Holy Ghost. We have Peter's own words that God granted to the Gentiles salvation repentance unto life, the Spirit- baptism and heart purity by faith without and before water baptism (Acts 11:13-18; 15:7-11). If this is how the Gentiles got saved then this is how the Jews got saved at Pentecost and we must understand Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 in this light baptism being mentioned as an act of obedience to testify that one is saved. Naturally the requirement of Salvation should be mentioned at the same time that is, that whosoever believeth in Him shall receive  remission of sins (Acts 10:43; 13:38, 39; 16:31; Jn. 3:14-18, 36; 5:24; 1 Jn. 5:1; Rom. 1:16; 3:21-31; 10:9, 10; 1 Cor. 1:13-24).


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## brutally honest (May 22, 2022)

Newt, why shouldn’t I keep posting scriptures that clearly refute BP’s position?


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## Banjo Picker (May 22, 2022)

The Scriptures plainly state that people must be saved before baptism. Those who are disciples are the only ones that are commanded to be baptized (Matt. 28:19; Acts 2:41). Only those who have previously repented and believe are to be baptized (Matt. 3:2-6; Acts 2:37, 38; 8:12, 37; 10:43-48; 18:8; 19:4).

I don't need pictures, or videos, to prove my point all I need is the Scriptures they back up me


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## brutally honest (May 22, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> The Scriptures plainly state that people must be saved before baptism.



From post 165:

There are six passages in the NT where baptism and salvation are mentioned in the same verse. Baptism precedes salvation in each one of them.

Mark 1:4
Mark 16:16
Luke 3:3
Acts 2:38
Acts 22:16
1 Peter 3:21

(Forgive me, Newt.  I’m weak.)


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## Banjo Picker (May 22, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> From post 165:
> 
> There are six passages in the NT where baptism and salvation are mentioned in the same verse. Baptism precedes salvation in each one of them.
> 
> ...


I will be praying for you that God opens your eyes to help you see the differences between the baptismal of water and the Holy Ghost.


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## Ruger#3 (May 22, 2022)

Two men of faith discuss a distinction between faiths, what a difference in approach, respect and love for fellow Christians.


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## brutally honest (May 22, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> I will be praying for you that God opens your eyes to help you see the differences between the baptismal of water and the Holy Ghost.



He already opened my eyes.  

I used to believe exactly the same as you.


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## brutally honest (May 22, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> Two men of faith discuss a distinction between faiths, what a difference in approach, respect and love for fellow Christians.



The guy on the right is very “woke” (regardless of his views on baptism.)


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## Ruger#3 (May 22, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> The guy on the right is very “woke” (regardless of his views on baptism.)



Thats perception and opinion and not the subject here.


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## brutally honest (May 22, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> Thats perception and opinion …



Not just mine:

https://pulpitandpen.org/2019/07/19/if-thabiti-anyabwile-is-really-sorry-****-change-his-name/


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## brutally honest (May 22, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> … and not the subject here.



Agreed.  Just thought I’d point it out.


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## Madman (May 22, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> He already opened my eyes.
> 
> I used to believe exactly the same as you.


So did my wife.


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## Madman (May 22, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> Two men of faith discuss a distinction between faiths, what a difference in approach, respect and love for fellow Christians.


It is nice to see pastors agree, but I would expect no less. Neither of them believe in baptismal regeneration Their only disagreement is on age.  As the Presbyterian said baby dedications?  I say add water and call it what it is.


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## brutally honest (May 22, 2022)

Madman said:


> As the Presbyterian said baby dedications?  I say add water and call it what it is.



Yes, it seems like much of the church world has downplayed or outright discarded baptism and then came up with their own "thing" to replace it.


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## Banjo Picker (May 22, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> He already opened my eyes.
> 
> I used to believe exactly the same as you.


I doubt it


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## brutally honest (May 22, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> I doubt it



... and you'd be wrong.  (And when I said I believed exactly as you, I was just referring to baptism.)

That's why there's nothing you can post about baptism that I haven't seen before.  I believed the same thing as you and used the same arguments to defend it.


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## Banjo Picker (May 23, 2022)

Mk. 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

John did baptize in the wilderness, meaning Mt. 3:6

and preach the baptism of repentance meaning Mt. 3:1

for the remission of sins meaning because meaning of Mt. 3:11

Mt. 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear; he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and _with _fire; meaning

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance; meaning

10 Reasons Forgiveness Not by WATER:

1. Gr. eis. a preposition trans. with baptism unto (Mt. 3:11), and for (because of, by reason of, on account of) in Mk. 1:4; Lk. 3:3; Acts 2:38. Eis is translated for (because of) 140 times; on 58 times; and upon 25 times. It appears in "for this same purpose" (Rom. 9:17; Col. 4:8); "for this cause" (Jn. 18:37; 1 Pet. 4:6); "for this purpose" (Acts 26:16; 1 Jn. 3:8); and "for that intent" (Acts 9:21)

2. On all occasions confession of sins was required and was made before baptism (Mt. 3:8, 11; Mk. 1:5; Lk. 3:8-14)

3. Only believers were baptized after repentance and faith in Christ (Mt. 28:19; Mk. 16:16; Acts 2:38, 41; 8:12, 13, 37; 16:14, 15, 31-33; 18:8; 19:1-7). and in some cases after receiving the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17, 18; 10:44-48)

4. Christ who knew no sin was baptized. Christ submitted to baptism for two reasons;
(1) To fulfill righteousness v 15
(2) To be manifest to Israel Jn. 1:31

5. Only a symbol of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ (1 Pet. 3:21)

6. Not essential to salvation (1 Cor. 1:13-21)

7. Faith in the blood of Christ brings remission of sin (26:28; Rom. 3:24, 25; 4:1-25; 5:1-11; 8:2; 10:4-10; 1 Cor. 15:1-5; Eph. 1:7; 2:8, 9; Gal. 3:19-29; Jn. 3:16; Acts 10:43; 13:38, 39; 1 Cor. 1:18-21; 1 Jn. 1:9; 5:1)

8. O. T. saints, including John and all in Lk. 1:15, 41, 46, 67; 2:25-38 who were filled with the Spirit, were saved without water baptism

9. Christ forgave sins without baptism (Mt. 9:1-7; Lk. 7:36-50; 18:9-14; 19:1-9; 23:43; Jn. 4:49-53; 7:31; 8:30, 31; 11:45; 12:11, 42; Acts 3:1-11, 16; 4:10-12; etc.)

10. It does not put away the filth of the flesh (1 Pet. 3:21 note)


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## brutally honest (May 23, 2022)

Newt, should I respond?


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## StriperAddict (May 23, 2022)

Israel said:


> Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.


But God! ... Time reveals, and heals, at times methinks.


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## Banjo Picker (May 25, 2022)

Mk. 1:4 Meaning

Matt. 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. Meaning

Gr. baptizo, from bapto, to dip (Lk. 16:24; Rev. 19:13; Jn. 13:26); to overwhelm with suffering (Mt. 20:22, 23; Lk. 12:50); to bury into (Rom. 6:3-7; Col. 2:12), regardless of the element used. see Acts 8:38.

7 BAPTISMS IN SCRIPTURE:

1. JOHN'S BAPTISM IN WATER (Mt. 3; Mk. 1; Lk. 3; 7:29, 30; Jn. 1:31-33; 3:23-26; 10:40; Acts 1:5; 11:16; 19:3)

2. CHRIST'A BAPTISM IN WATER (Jn. 3:22; 4:1, 2)

3. BAPTISM IN SUFFERING (Lk. 12:50)

4. BAPTISM INTO THE CLOUD AND IN THE SEA (1 Cor. 10:2)

5. CHRISTAIN BAPTISM IN WATER (Mt. 28:19; Mk. 16:16; Acts 2:38-41; 8:12-16, 36-38; 9:18; 10:47, 48; 16:15, 33; 18:8; 19:5; 22:16; 1 Cor. 1:13-17; 1 Pet. 3:21)

6. BAPTISM INTO CHRIST AND INTO HIS BODY (Rom. 6:3-7; 1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:27; Col. 2:12)

7. BAPTISM IN THE HOLY SPIRIT (Mt. 3:11, 14; 20:22, 23; Mk. 1:8; 10:38, 39; Lk. 3:16; Jn. 1:33; 7:37-39; Acts 1:5; 11:16; 19:2, 3)


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## brutally honest (May 25, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> Mk. 1:4 Meaning
> 
> Matt. 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. Meaning
> 
> ...




This is a combination of posts 1 and 3.  The "seven baptisms" are slightly different, though, so you must have copied from a different source.


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## Banjo Picker (May 25, 2022)

3 BAPTISMS FOR BELEIVERS

1. Into Christ or into His body at repentance and the new birth (pt. 6, above). Called "one baptism" (Eph. 4:5), because it is the only baptism that saves the soul and brings into the body of Christ.

2. Water baptism after one is saved (pt. 5, above and v 11).

3. Spirit baptism, the enduement of power for service, It can take place before water baptism (Acts 10:44-48); or after it (Acts 1:4-8; 2:1-11; 8:12-21; 19:1-7).
The Holy Spirit is the agent to baptize into Christ and into His body (1 Cor. 12:13; Christ is the agent to baptize in the Holy Spirit (Matt. 3:11; Jn. 1:31-33); and the minister is the agent to baptize into water (Mt. 28:19).


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