# What does Paul mean by "we shall be saved by his life".



## gordon 2 (Nov 7, 2011)

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconcliled, we shall be saved by his life. Romans 5:10

Paul seems to be distinguishing between two things here. For the cross we were reconciled to God and our salvation is by the life of the Son.

Or in my words, (according to my words and understanding,) we are forgiven of our sinful nature by the Cross and the resurection, but we are saved by the life of Jesus.

Paul continues in chapter Romans 6:10 " For in that he died, he did unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

So again in my words, it is by Jesus' example, the spiritual aspect of it, in recorded words and deeds, in the relationships and the communications with the people around him that we are saved!

Jesus, his life, is the example of what it is to live according to the Father and all that flows from Him and it is this and for this similar relationship that we as well can live that we are saved.

So our salvation is not the cross. The cross is our redemption--and our hope of ressurection. Our salvation is the life that Jesus lived.

Now if this is so...then we are are twisting our great commissions concerning salvation....???

Ideas...???


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## centerpin fan (Nov 7, 2011)

Man's problem is death:  "... you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ." Col. 2:13

Jesus conquered death.  As we sing every Easter,

_Christ is risen from the dead,
Trampling down death by death,
And upon those in the tombs
Bestowing life!_


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## centerpin fan (Nov 7, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Now if this is so...then we are are twisting our great commissions concerning salvation....???



How so?


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## formula1 (Nov 7, 2011)

*Re:*

God did the work of reconciliation in Christ on the cross before we could receive it (Romans 5:6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.). 
When we come to Christ (Romans 10:9-10), we are saved as a result of the redemptive work. That is a guarantee! Now, as that work is completed in our time and space and borders, how much more will it be possible for Christ to live His life through us as we 'die'. It never is 'we' or 'us' though, it is always 'Him'.   "We' and 'us' were nailed to the cross in Him!

Salvation, redemption, life, our hope of resurrrection are all wrapped up in Jesus Christ!


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## gordon 2 (Nov 7, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> How so?



The Great Commission is to get people saved for example. More than not we ask people to believe onto Jesus and be saved, but the Jesus Saviour that is presented is the Jesus of the Cross who died for our sins... for we are all sinners.

When I read Romans I find that Paul says we are saved because of the life Jesus lived, a life lived with God the father. This is our salvation. We are reconciled for the sacrefice on the cross and the resurection, but we are saved for the life that Jesus lived. It is therefore from that life lived, from that ministry we must find the source and the the example for our salvation.

But I might be reading it all wrong...

In otherwords we have been concentrating salvation in what Paul says reconciled. It seems Paul makes a distiction between the two....

For the cross we are saved and always saved is perhaps spiritually incorrect. Paul says for the life that Jesus lived we are saved, if we chose to live in like manner.


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## StriperAddict (Nov 7, 2011)

formula1 said:


> Now, as that work is completed in our time and space and borders, how much more will it be possible for Christ to live His life through us as we 'die'. It never is 'we' or 'us' though, it is always 'Him'. "We' and 'us' were nailed to the cross in Him!
> 
> Salvation, redemption, life, our hope of resurrrection are all wrapped up in Jesus Christ!


 
Well said.
This is such a critical part of the gospel that understanding it more fully has been a goal of mine lately.
When we understand that we have died to ourselves (as our point of reference, along with the death to the power of sin and the law), we are free to see the life of Christ within us is sufficent to carry the day.  Faith is the bridge that takes the "us" out of the equation and allows us to reckon it so... "Christ in you, the hope of glory", and we see the Lord live thru us, _as us_.  
Getting this sacred ground into the soul is a liberation I pray all believers would fully know in their hearts.

*Colossians 2:10a*
10: and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. (NIV)
10: and you are complete in Him (KJV)
10: and ye are in him made full (Young's literal)


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## gordon 2 (Nov 7, 2011)

formula1 said:


> God did the work of reconciliation in Christ on the cross before we could receive it (Romans 5:6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.).
> When we come to Christ (Romans 10:9-10), we are saved as a result of the redemptive work. That is a guarantee! Now, as that work is completed in our time and space and borders, how much more will it be possible for Christ to live His life through us as we 'die'. It never is 'we' or 'us' though, it is always 'Him'.   "We' and 'us' were nailed to the cross in Him!
> 
> Salvation, redemption, life, our hope of resurrrection are all wrapped up in Jesus Christ!



So are you saying that "his life" means His life through us?

"but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God." Does not this mean his life, as in his ministry, his parables, his healings, his patience, his miracles, his sermons, his interactions, his teachings, that were "lived unto God"? And if so are we not saved for these after we are reconciled for the cross? In other words, we are saved for "The Way"...knowing full well that  even reconciled by the Spirit to God we can still chose it or not...

In Romans Paul cautions us that we are no longer sinners if we chose salvation from the example of the life of Christ.

"Chapter 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. "  Paul previous to this chapter has explained his understanding of what it is to be "after the flesh". And it is my understanding that it is not the flesh that must die, but the spirit of it must change.

We are free to chose that walk or not, even if we accept the Atonement. The acceptance of the atonement is what most "saved" christians go by, yet forego the walk that was the life Paul talks about....

Chapter 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. 

The way I read this is that though we are reconciled to God for the cross, to believe in Jesus is to believe in his life and his ministry and to walk it so that things will change...not only the nature of man, but the nature of life itself.

Chapter 5: 5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

 Again: Romans 5 10 "Being reconciled , we shall be saved by his life."


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## gordon 2 (Nov 7, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> Well said.
> This is such a critical part of the gospel that understanding it more fully has been a goal of mine lately.
> When we understand that we have died to ourselves (as our point of reference, along with the death to the power of sin and the law), we are free to see the life of Christ within us is sufficent to carry the day.  Faith is the bridge that takes the "us" out of the equation and allows us to reckon it so... "Christ in you, the hope of glory", and we see the Lord live thru us, _as us_.
> Getting this sacred ground into the soul is a liberation I pray all believers would fully know in their hearts.
> ...



Yes, but can you explain who the "Christ in you" is? Where do you get him from? Having died to your "corruptible man" as Paul says, from where do you get the Christ you claim lives true you. If it is from The Cross are you forever dieing to corruptions, and define yourself as a sinner and if it is from the life of Christ, the  saintly life he lived before he was crucified, are you living beyond corruptions? Which Christ lives thru you?

It seems to me that fullness here is a fullness gained from life in the Spirit. The spiritual effort is not to die, but to live. Christ died for us once and for all....now it is His life that must save us. And not the life we might claim Jesus lives trough us, but from this the life that was his real sandles on the cobblestone .

If we are reconciled to God via the Atonement, do we now need to live or do we now need to die? Should the concerns of saints be life or death?


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## centerpin fan (Nov 7, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> The Great Commission is to get people saved for example. More than not we ask people to believe onto Jesus and be saved, but the Jesus Saviour that is presented is the Jesus of the Cross who died for our sins... for we are all sinners.
> 
> When I read Romans I find that Paul says we are saved because of the life Jesus lived, a life lived with God the father. This is our salvation. We are reconciled for the sacrefice on the cross and the resurection, but we are saved for the life that Jesus lived. It is therefore from that life lived, from that ministry we must find the source and the the example for our salvation.



I don't think you're reading it wrong.  I just think you need to keep reading.  Paul explains himself pretty well in Romans 6:


_1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 
 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin. 

 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. _


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## formula1 (Nov 7, 2011)

Great posts CP and SA!  And Gordon, you are definately on the right track with the phrase 'Life in the Spirit'.

May I add the following for you all to peruse and consider:

Romans 7
1 Or do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? 2For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. 3Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.

Consider verse 1-3 like this:  
You are the married woman, bound to sin(husband).
If you husband dies, you are released from the legal requirement. 
If you husband does not die and you try to live with another, you will be a adulteress. 
If sin is dead, the new man, Christ, is free now to join with you and to live His life in you.

This is effectively the work of Christ, to for lack of a better term, changes us from slaves of sin, to slaves of righteousness.

4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

This is a great discussion and I thank all of you!


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 7, 2011)

"Saved by his life"-------Gal 2:20 gives insight, "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me."


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 7, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> I don't think you're reading it wrong.  I just think you need to keep reading.  Paul explains himself pretty well in Romans 6:
> 
> 
> _1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
> ...



good post


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## StriperAddict (Nov 7, 2011)

Gordon, the verses quoted by F1 go towards answering your response post, but I'll add more scripture & thoughts soon.  

I agree this is one great thread to discuss!


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## gordon 2 (Nov 7, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> Gordon, the verses quoted by F1 go towards answering your response post, but I'll add more scripture & thoughts soon.
> 
> I agree this is one great thread to discuss!



Ok thanks. If F1's is close to your response and if your busy don't get out of your way.... I'm good. But if you can add go for it...

I don't want to go all over the place in this tread, but this sort of interests me...and  I wonder where this idea is from?  Quote""Christ in you, the hope of glory", and we see the Lord live thru us, as us.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 7, 2011)

formula1 said:


> Great posts CP and SA!  And Gordon, you are definately on the right track with the phrase 'Life in the Spirit'.
> 
> May I add the following for you all to peruse and consider:
> 
> ...



This is effectively the work of Christ, to for lack of a better term, changes us from slaves of sin, to slaves of righteousness.

So we are slaves to righteousness because for the atonement we serve in a "new way of the Spirit".

If this is so then why would Christ need send the Holy Spirit  after this the cross and the resurection?

If I understand, which I might not be, what you are saying or meaning to say is that when Paul says " much more, being reconcliled, we shall be saved by his life. Romans 5:10" is that this is meant as his resurected life...in us and not his life and ministry  before the atonement? Having died in Christ, believing that Jesus  Savior died for our sins and we are no more corruptable?


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## gordon 2 (Nov 7, 2011)

Ok, I just got a hold of a the Amplified Bible, just because it was handy and I know it would have an intro. to Romans.

This is what is listed in the introduction.



> "1.The content of Romans is centered on the theme of God's revelation of righteousness. 2.  Evident is the fact that Jews and Gentiles alike are unrighteous sinners in need of salvation. 3. In the person of Jesus Christ is revealed the perfect righeousness. 4. Through the death and resurection of Christ , the provision has been made for men to obtain this righteousness through faith. 5. Divine power to enable man to live in accordance with this righteousness is imparted through the Holy Spirit."[ End Quote.]
> 
> When I read Paul I read that in Christ, in the person of Christ, is our salvation because he is our model of perfect righeousness ( to use the intro's words here). Faith in Christ and his righteousness ( which is from the Father) is my salvation.
> 
> ...


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## formula1 (Nov 7, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> > "1.The content of Romans is centered on the theme of God's revelation of righteousness. 2.  Evident is the fact that Jews and Gentiles alike are unrighteous sinners in need of salvation. 3. In the person of Jesus Christ is revealed the perfect righeousness. 4. Through the death and resurection of Christ , the provision has been made for men to obtain this righteousness through faith. 5. Divine power to enable man to live in accordance with this righteousness is imparted through the Holy Spirit."[ End Quote.]
> >
> > When I read Paul I read that in Christ, in the person of Christ, is our salvation because he is our model of perfect righeousness ( to use the intro's words here). Faith in Christ and his righteousness ( which is from the Father) is my salvation.
> >
> ...


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## Ronnie T (Nov 7, 2011)

Gordon, I think you're on it now.

We often incorrectly state that everything rests on Jesus' death and the shedding of His blood.  But it has to go much much further than that.
Remember, we have a living Savior.  And that is the hallmark of our existence.  He is our intercessor, the head of the church, and much more.

Paul's letter to the Romans provides us all the answers.

10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 

Jesus' death brought us to God.
Jesus' resurrected life will carry us into eternal heaven.

*Paul uses chap 1 thru 3 to make it clear that every single person, Jew or Gentile, stands condemned because of their sins.
Then in chap 3 Paul begins talking about sinners being justified through their belief, faith, trust, in Jesus as their Savior(Christ).

.......chap 5 begins this way:    1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand

then verse 10 again:   10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 

I think it's John 14:9 that Jesus says:    Because I live, you shall also live.


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## StriperAddict (Nov 7, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> ... Faith in Christ and his righteousness ( which is from the Father) is my salvation.
> 
> The death and resurection here( in the introduction) is said to be a  provision, which Paul say provides for reconciliation, but we must chose  to have faith or relationship in and with the perfect model which is in  the life of Christ. We have no need to die and die and die to  corruptions to be deemed acceptable. We cannot any longer define  ourselves as sinner.



Agreed,  and this is a tough one to reckon so, when it seems we often turn back  to our "old tapes", or old false beliefs we once used to survive in the  world.   But this cannot change the inner spiritual man, who was bought  and set free by the Perfect Man, "in whom we live, and move and have our  being".  Considering ourselves dead to sin and alive to God gives us the freedom to make faith choices, as we see Christ, living through us, with our human weakness and all.  (Power is perfected in weakness, a subject for another thread.)  As we  abide and draw close to Jesus, we gain from the Holy Spirit within us  the help to make these faith choices and no longer rely on our fleshly  strength and abilities to serve the Lord.  This allows the life of  Christ to live through us.  And AS us.

The "AS us" quote recently tripped me up, until I heard of some teaching on the work of Christ.

Would any be surprised if it was said that Christ Himself never did any work (of Himself)?

Would it surprise you to hear Jesus say the work that He did was not His? Or the words that He spoke were not of His own?

Consider the words of Jesus in John's gospel:

*John 9:4*
*I* must work the *works* of _Him that sent me_.

*John 14:10*
 Do you not believe that I am in the *Father*, and the *Father* in Me? The words that I speak to you _I do not speak on My own authority_; but _the *Father* who dwells in Me does the *works*._

*John 10:37*
 If I do not do the *works* of My *Father*, do not believe Me.

John 14:7-11  The Father Revealed...  in Christ:
  <sup class="versenum" id="en-NKJV-26672">7</sup> “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”    
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-NKJV-26673">8</sup> Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”    
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-NKJV-26674">9</sup>  Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not  known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you  say, ‘Show us the Father’? <sup class="versenum" id="en-NKJV-26675">10</sup> Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the _Father in Me_? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own _authority;_ but _the Father who dwells in Me does the works._ <sup class="versenum" id="en-NKJV-26676">11</sup> Believe Me that I _am_ in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

If we see that Christ's life was that of the Father  living through Him, speaking AS him, doing the work of God the Father  AS Him, we have the "pattern" by faith of Christ in us, as us, doing His  work (yes, the very work of His Father), and we can be and live at  rest. This 'rest' is not just our heaven when we depart our physical  bodies in death, but the rest that is described in Hebrews:
*Hebrews 4:9*
 There remains therefore a *rest* for the people of God.

*Hebrews 4:10*
 For he who has entered His *rest* has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

Imagine that!  By believing, we have "ceased from "OUR" works", as we see Him do His work through us!

No longer is the killing of our humanity a valiant cause, no longer is  the counsel of the world our friend, no longer the power of sin can   corrupt our inner man. 

 John 15:15 As a disciple, I am a friend of Jesus Christ.

I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, _for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you_.

This is powerful,  liberating truth, that right now we are a "friend of God" like our  "father of faith" Abraham was.  This kicks the "law of sin and death" to  the ground and in it's place we live by His life, the resurrected life  of Him who can never die again. And we share in that same promise, as we  see His work through us.


I'm sorry if I've covered too many points on this topic, but there's so  much to it that speak to the "Christ in 'us' the hope of Glory".  
I confess I'm very much still the student, sitting at the Master's feet  and asking for clarity as I consider the entire topic.  But this I know,  the indwelling Lord Jesus is my entire life, and this I consider so by  faith.

Colossians 2:9-10  We are (I am) complete in Christ...
_*For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily  form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over  every power and authority.*_


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## gordon 2 (Nov 8, 2011)

AWESOME replies! You guys are killing me. No wait you guys are "aliving" me.

OK...So Christ in us, our works in Christ and Christ our introduction into the new life of grace. How and where do we get more of Christ and more of grace in our lives and works? 

How does the Holy Spirit, (what is His desire? and how do we know it), that we chose this as grace and not that, and choseing Christ as our perfect model we chose this of God and man and not that?

Or put another way how do we make choices, do works, live, pray from the incorruptable, abide, etc.? Where are we "in-formed" so we can be formed to works of rightiousness?

Why would one disciple say murderers are to hang and another say death in this case is no remedy? Why would one say faith and not works. Is one taking from the well of life and the other the well of death, is the perfect model Jesus the same for both? and both all the time accounting  for "Jesus in us"?



How can this be so? Is the Holy Spirit a person of grace and favor that for all having died to corruption in the slaying and ressurection of Jesus, yet all are not given the same model and the same God?

The disciple that has the Kingdom in his heart but not the Kingdom in this life and the desciple that has the Kingdom for this life in his heart do they have the same God? even or having both "Christ in us"?

We cannot account for these differences as our falls in the flesh for we are not slaves to it for the Lord, for the Cross, for the Life of Jesus. So what account do we have?

This Christ we have, when we eat and drink at his table, do we sip or drink full bottles of his wine? When we break bread do we take from the basket for what others will need, or our needs?

So where do we get manners?  and where do we take care of our selves? Many times I find our manners are no different than when we were to sin and the spirits of sin.  So for some is our Father slack and for others a govenor of fear? that grace is formed different in one disciple and different again in an other?

What is the perfection of our model? What does scripture say?


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## Ronnie T (Nov 8, 2011)

Great stuff.


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## StriperAddict (Nov 8, 2011)

Gordon, thee asketh muchly, and akin to scholarly investigation of providence, which bringeth spiritual refreshment.  
(Sorry, I sometimes go all "King James" when a subject has my undivided attention !  )

Your questions, to me, can be summed up with your last...



> What is the perfection of our model? What does scripture say?


 
*Romans 12:2*
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and *perfect* will of God.

My answer to your question, based on this scripture, is daily dependency on the Lord's providence (mercy and grace).  

Now, how I go about that, might be as different as night and day to another believer's walk with Christ. It would be an injustice to put out any 'rules' along the answer to that, because in the end, "law" will always trip us up...  whether it's the law of sin and death, or other laws or "rules" we might cling to, to help our feet not get caught in the traps of the enemy of our souls.  I will say this, studying the word of God and comitting it to both memory and also trust that the same Holy Spirit who inspired scripture, would at given times of His choosing, bring the Word (who is Christ Himself!) to bear on ALL circumstances and situations.  But I am far from there, this type of "outward perfection" we are discussing!
Paul puts it plainly that this is a goal of the life of faith for everyone...

*Ephesians 4:13*
till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a *perfect* man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.

Also...
*Galatians 3:3*
Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made *perfect* by the flesh?

Can any "law" really bring us to a *perfect* man?  Never, but it is His work, not ours, that we _humbly submit to_, for Christ Himself (by His perfect Spirit within) to be free to live through us.  Cooperation is key as we renew our minds from the old life (Paul says "I die daily") and cling to the truth God says about our New Life within.

*Philippians 3:12*
[ _Pressing Toward the Goal_ ] Not that I have already attained, or am already *perfect*ed; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.


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## formula1 (Nov 8, 2011)

*Re:*



StriperAddict said:


> Can any "law" really bring us to a *perfect* man?  Never, but it is His work, not ours, that we _humbly submit to_, for Christ Himself (by His perfect Spirit within) to be free to live through us.  Cooperation is key as we renew our minds from the old life (Paul says "I die daily") and cling to the truth God says about our New Life within.



StriperAddict, thanks for summing it up so well.  It keeps me from having to type a response to my dear brother in Christ G2!


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## gtparts (Nov 8, 2011)

formula1 said:


> God did the work of reconciliation in Christ on the cross before we could receive it (Romans 5:6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.).
> When we come to Christ (Romans 10:9-10), we are saved as a result of the redemptive work. That is a guarantee! Now, as that work is completed in our time and space and borders, how much more will it be possible for Christ to live His life through us as we 'die'. It never is 'we' or 'us' though, it is always 'Him'.   "We' and 'us' were nailed to the cross in Him!
> 
> Salvation, redemption, life, our hope of resurrrection are all wrapped up in Jesus Christ!





StriperAddict said:


> Well said.
> This is such a critical part of the gospel that understanding it more fully has been a goal of mine lately.
> When we understand that we have died to ourselves (as our point of reference, along with the death to the power of sin and the law), we are free to see the life of Christ within us is sufficent to carry the day.  Faith is the bridge that takes the "us" out of the equation and allows us to reckon it so... "Christ in you, the hope of glory", and we see the Lord live thru us, _as us_.
> Getting this sacred ground into the soul is a liberation I pray all believers would fully know in their hearts.
> ...



All this is true and well said,.... however, gordon 2's question  has a more simple explanation.

Jesus' death on the cross paid our sin debt. It was not necessary for Him to be resurrected to accomplish this. His death alone was enough to cover our sin. That much was complete. We (those who are saved) receive reconciliation to God by that act alone. But, reconciliation is an accounting term that says the account is balanced, that we are "square". Had Jesus not been resurrected, then it would be possible to have our account balanced (a zero sum) and still be dead. If Christ remained in the tomb, then the only thing we could say is that when we die our spiritual estate will not have a "negative balance". Jesus balanced our account! 

It is by Jesus' resurrection that we have the assurance of eternal life, our resurrection after we depart this life. 

I strongly recommend "Be Right", by Warren W. Wiersbe. Frankly, he explains things far better than I do. 

In part, Wiersbe writes:
 Jesus Christ wrote us into His will, and He wrote the will with his blood. "This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you." (Luke 22:20) He died so the will would be in force; but then He arose from the dead and returned to heaven that He might enforce the will Himself and distribute the inheritance. Thus, we are "saved by His life."..... Christ died for us; Christ lives for us; Christ is coming for us! Hallelujah, what a Savior!


To which I can only add, "Amen!"


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## gordon 2 (Nov 8, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> Gordon, thee asketh muchly, and akin to scholarly investigation of providence, which bringeth spiritual refreshment.
> (Sorry, I sometimes go all "King James" when a subject has my undivided attention !  )
> 
> Your questions, to me, can be summed up with your last...
> ...





OK Let me be the fool's advocate. 

Quote:[My answer to your question, based on this scripture, is daily dependency on the Lord's providence (mercy and grace).  

Now, how I go about that, might be as different as night and day to another believer's walk with Christ.] End Quote.

Same Christ but different believers account for this example: the degrees of grace and mercy for a man hanging until dead or condemned to prison without parole as reperation for injury? and the rules conflicting and differing definitions of justice? and indeed righteousness?

Quote:[It would be an injustice to put out any 'rules' along the answer to that, because in the end, "law" will always trip us up..] End Quote.

 Yet do we, (we christians) not have rules and laws in our doctrines? And do these doctrines perhaps limit grace and mercy, patience and forgiveness...indeed Love? Do we return to the law for fencing in the will of God akin to fencing in property?

If one says the Kingdom is in the heart and the world is doomed to destruction until Christ returns,  and another in Christ says it is the Chruch and Christ in us, and another  in Christ says it is the renued spiritual material of our lives  used to  co-create the world anew and hand it over to the Lord as a fruit is shared between a groom and a bride... What is our perfection in this? God cannot say all these things?



If I was a child, say 11yrs old, and I asked you, "What makes Jesus so perfect that Jesus should be my example? Show me in the bible? Where would you lead me? What life would you show me? How would you show me the life in yourself in scripture, where would you go to. Paul's letters? Gospels?


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## centerpin fan (Nov 8, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> If I was a child, say 11yrs old, and I asked you, "What makes Jesus so perfect that Jesus should be my example? Show me in the bible? Where would you lead me?



I would start (and maybe end) with John 1:1:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."


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## gordon 2 (Nov 9, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> I would start (and maybe end) with John 1:1:
> 
> "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."



I shall be long suffering then or short on patience in my life depending on my character knowing that there was a beginning  and that beginning was God, but how shall I know to perfect my character, my suffering, my patience?

I am told that sin took me away from perfection and that having died to sin in Jesus I am reconciled again to perfection. Yet I am far less patient, bothered to no end by suffering and the suffering of others compared to some other brothers and sisters so reconciled and compared as to when I was to sin. What gives?

Should the perfection in the life of Christ, active in me and you be dependant on our character or the character of Christ? Having Christ in us we are no longer in conformity with the world... yet we have no conformity in grace and mercy.... Where is my model?


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## formula1 (Nov 9, 2011)

*Re:*

In faith like a child, please receive these words:

John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Romans 8:28
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

Romans 8:32
He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?

2 Corinthians 9:8
And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work.

Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through him who strengthens me.

2 Peter 1:3
His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence

Romans 11:36
For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

Colossians 1:17
And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Hebrews 3:4
For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.


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## StriperAddict (Nov 9, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> If I was a child, say 11yrs old, and I asked you, "What makes Jesus so perfect that Jesus should be my example? Show me in the bible? Where would you lead me? What life would you show me? How would you show me the life in yourself in scripture, where would you go to. Paul's letters? Gospels?


 
At each and every corner you would ask providence for such help as the time comes, I suppose.  Jesus said, "apart from me ye can do nothing", so it's back to a dependency which I carry out in prayer and faith, as I am able.
As I see in myself those 'demons' of impatience rearing their ugly head, I enter into the choice...
1) To believe I have some earthly 'right' at that moment to 'demand' XXX event gets done, or demand respect if I'm not given it by him at odds with me, or allow anger to surface and maybe just disarm the situation with the power of my flesh.  How foolish! But this is in response to what I believe (my error in judgement) at that moment.  If I am NOT careful to take such wrong thoughts to the cross, the thought will lead to emotion (never can be a source of truth) and then to action/behavior that is not what lines up with the life of Christ within.
2) If I'm sensitive to the Lord at a moment of trial (and trust me, concern on this has me make this plead with heaven on a day by day basis), then I may just see the Spirit point out an inconsistent belief I have about that situation, and I can correct that by applying what I know from scripture.  Truth will be batteling our bad thinking until Christ returns, I'm afraid.  But in this battle, we come yet closer to the pattern/model we see in our Lord.  This is where grace is applied, because we often blow it with our stinkin' thinkin', but God knows us, and the deep concern we have on the inside is literally the voice of the Holy Spirit cheering us on.
Don't be afraid of failing the "pattern/model" you speak of, mercy and grace are there and you can always come home to the throne of grace boldly, not because of your outward righteousness, but because of Him who right now lives perfectly within your inner man.

Make sense?


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## Greaserbilly (Nov 9, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> I would start (and maybe end) with John 1:1:
> 
> "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."



Even more beautiful in the original:

EN ARCHE EYN HO LOGOS, KAI HO LOGOS EYN PROS TON THEON, KAI THEOS EYN HO LOGOS.

(Transliterated - dunno who's got koine Greek fonts)


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## gordon 2 (Nov 9, 2011)

And so it is...I will be silent now I think, for fear I will continue to  repeat myself... and get anoying! if it is not already the case

Thanks to all for sharing....


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## StriperAddict (Nov 9, 2011)

I fear the same with my ramblings, Gordon 

But I'm happy that you and everyone in the thread really helped me in this study.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 10, 2011)

Finding ourselves perhaps equally annoying....we should not finish this tread on that note.

"much more, being reconcliled, we shall be saved by his life. Romans 5:10" Started here this tread has stirred in me perhaps the difference between my religious community and yours and indeed the deffering societies we live into. 

Both of us christian, yet I am roman catholic by birth and choice and most of my brothers here, and I believe you, are protestant, ( but not all).


I have come to this finding, perhaps incomplete for this tread. Catholics believe themselves reconciled by the cross, but my faith is in the earthly life of Christ. That is his life and works. His works and life as "the model" is what catholics, at least this one, considers faith. And once more this faith is active, as our Lords faith was active to change the world according to the will of the Father.

This is brief, but will have to do for now. These are the works of faith according to my tradition. It is for these works, for following the life and works of Christ as a model and going indeed beyond as He tells us to do, that I am SAVED.

See here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Jesus

On the other hand we share in our christian tradition Paul. (Saul of Tarsus.) Now for Paul the prostestant traditions in christianity have made, faith paramount and the focus of faith different than in the catholic tradition. 
"Martin Luther's interpretation of Paul's writings heavily influenced Luther's doctrine of sola fide. see below:

See this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle

And again this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide

You will see in the very first article on Paul, that it is said, Quote"[ Augustine of Hippo developed Paul's idea that salvation is based on faith and not "Works of the Law".[3] Martin Luther's interpretation of Paul's writings heavily influenced Luther's doctrine of sola fide]

Now for all our differences on works and faith, I think we can agree that both traditions have NO faith in the Works of the law. Catholics have faith in the works of Christ and in them to practice. The gospel shall reconcile the world to God for them. Now both traditions hold perhaps to "Christ in us". I have tried to understand the what or how  protestant go about faith, and I know that their faith is without peer,  and in my limited understanding, it is that their faith is in the reconciliation for the cross and for the resurrection from the death, both physically and spiritualy. 

There for I can conclude,  yet perhaps only in part, that for protestants faith is Hope of the great kind. None-the-less it is the model of the protestant faith, hope in Christ. Hope that he will return. Hope that He will listen to prayers. Hope that He will bless. Hope that all are saved.  Hope that He will Save.

The protestant model of perfection is Hope in Christ. The catholic model  of perfection is the works and life of Jesus.

For one Jesus Christ for the other  Christ Jesus  is, were we gain Him from,  and accounts for our differing day in day out walks and yet to we call ourselves brothers in Christ ( our saviour).

I so wish we could find agreement in how to use a foot stool. In our hopes that the light bulbs be changed and in doing it with an eye how Jesus would remouve the old and screw in the new... that electromagnetic radiation might not be devided as the property of differing doctrines.

Amen.


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## Greaserbilly (Nov 10, 2011)

If I understand it correctly, sola fide and sola scriptura means that one's personal faith/relationship are what is required, and all that is necessary for salvation is in the scriptures.

Please understand my ensuing commentary is not meant to be a personal condemnation of Catholicism, but to run through what I believe to be the objections to same from the Protestant viewpoint.

The only sacraments that Jesus commanded were the Eucharist and Baptism.  Not the multitudes of required acts that Catholicism adds.

Then there's the idea that the priest IS "another Christ" with the power to compel Jesus to come down from Heaven to be in the host. That's why women can't be ordained, because without a set of male genitals, they don't look like Jesus. 

And reading the Bible isn't acceptable. You need to listen to the Pope, who, speaking as God, can't make mistakes. In fact until very very recently Catholics were strongly discouraged from reading the Bible lest they go "wait a minute, where's this Limbo stuff? Where's the confessional thing? Wait, what?"

Unfortunately, to the Protestant mind, the notion that one REQUIRES a Catholic Priest (wasn't the whole notion of the rending of the temple veil about there being no need for a priest class?), REQUIRES confession TO THAT PRIEST, WHO IS JESUS, REQUIRES the Pope, REQUIRES a bunch of rituals and sacraments NOT IN THE BIBLE and such is "salvation by works". In fact, the biggest threat the Catholic Church had was "excommunication" - consigning someone to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- because he/she could not perform the necessary rituals and spells to get into the Pearly Gates.

Actually, it gets worse. You pray to a Priest, who prays to a Saint, or to Mary, who asks Jesus to talk to God. Because after all, there's this very large celestial bureaucracy to deal with.

Protestants DO focus more on the CHRISTOS than the YEHESHUAH, I'll agree. They do tend to worry far less about doing the things that Jesus did, and I'll totally stand up for the Catholics with their missions, and their hospitals, and their sending food, clothing and strong arms and legs to build houses and dig wells in places where people are dying. The Protestant world needs way, WAY more of that.

However when you speak of works, the Protestant mind thinks less of this and more of "you must make sure you do this prayer. And that spell. And that made-up sacrament. And don't seek a relationship with God. The priest does that for you. And he gets his marching orders from the Pope, who is The Final Authority, not the Bible." (from their perspective)

HTH


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## gordon 2 (Nov 10, 2011)

Greaserbilly said:


> If I understand it correctly, sola fide and sola scriptura means that one's personal faith/relationship are what is required, and all that is necessary for salvation is in the scriptures.
> 
> Please understand my ensuing commentary is not meant to be a personal condemnation of Catholicism, but to run through what I believe to be the objections to same from the Protestant viewpoint.
> 
> ...



All I can tell you is that in my experience and what has been my teaching is that none of the obove applies to being a christian or a catholic for that matter. But these point as works are not the works I am talking about. I am talking about the works in the ministry of Jesus...by Jesus who was God. The works usually attributed to catholics as being sacrements are erroneous in my view--and especially to the discussion here.

However, your list is not my experience as a catholic. My first encounter with a sacrement, that I was told it was one and had enough cognitive ability to not suck my tumb and was able to pull down my own pants in the bathroom was in grade primary. We were taught, I was taught, that any catholic, any christian could baptise someone, not only priests or ministers...and also it could be preformed with ditch water in a pinch. And so I found out later there were steriotypes about works that just did not apply...to grade primary catholics and advanced grades as well--I supposed.

So...I think we should get back to what I have identified as works here. Both catholics and protestants have always agreed that works after the law were a frustration to a new life for reconciliation---but that works from the heart in accordance and design similar to the works of God are the way to go....

But for doctine the way to go is different to both groups by degree for what we place as the model of our faith, namely hope in Christ and works in Christ.


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## Greaserbilly (Nov 10, 2011)

> The works usually attributed to catholics as being sacrements are erroneous in my view--and especially to the discussion here.



with all due respect, and I GENUINELY mean that


http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P3E.HTM
THE SEVEN SACRAMENTS OF THE CHURCH

1210 Christ instituted the sacraments of the new law. There are seven: Baptism, Confirmation (or Chrismation), the Eucharist, *Penance*, the Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders and Matrimony. 

VIII. The Minister of This Sacrament

1461 Since Christ entrusted to his apostles the ministry of reconciliation,65 bishops who are their successors, and priests, the bishops' collaborators, continue to exercise this ministry. *Indeed bishops and priests, by virtue of the sacrament of Holy Orders, have the power to forgive all sins "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."*

O RLY?


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## gordon 2 (Nov 10, 2011)

Greaserbilly said:


> with all due respect, and I GENUINELY mean that
> 
> 
> http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P3E.HTM
> ...



Ok Bros. You win...but, and I mean this in all respect as well, do you see that when I talk about works here I am not talking about sacrements...but the works of our day in, day out walk as christians---like praying for patience, LOL, or working for peace and justice, as per the great commission etc.... and that the example is the life of Christ, his ministry and his works....

Sacrements as works are for a different box of chocolate than which is being offered in this tread.


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## StriperAddict (Nov 10, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> So...I think we should get back to what I have identified as works here. Both catholics and protestants have always agreed that works after the law were a frustration to a new life for reconciliation---but that works from the heart in accordance and design similar to the works of God are the way to go....


Couldn't have said it better.



gordon 2 said:


> But for doctine the way to go is different to both groups by degree for what we place as the model of our faith, namely hope in Christ and works in Christ.


 
Gordon, is it possible that they are so close in perspective that for both "camps", the wall of seperation is gone?  I believe it to be.
Certainly there are some "non-believing" protestants in some mainline "works-only, no gospel truth" churches around, as I'm sure there are the same in cathloic churches. As you have rightly stated, it's a matter of the heart.  I hate to talk about my beliefs in doctrine as having any "slant" (wether protestant, cathloic, conservative, liberal, evangelical, etc.,) but I wish to be known and also know all men as being complete in Christ (or the potential for same if faith unto salvation has not happened yet).
You may rightly say my slant is evangelical/protestant, but I have long since kicked denominationalism out the door for the sake of living by the power of an indestructable life. (*Hebrews 7:16*)

Sorry I gotta run...  I'll continue later!
)


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## centerpin fan (Nov 10, 2011)

Greaserbilly said:


> If I understand it correctly, sola fide and sola scriptura means that one's personal faith/relationship are what is required, and all that is necessary for salvation is in the scriptures.
> 
> Please understand my ensuing commentary is not meant to be a personal condemnation of Catholicism, but to run through what I believe to be the objections to same from the Protestant viewpoint.
> 
> ...



Where's Big7 when you need him?


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## StriperAddict (Nov 10, 2011)

Well, I don't want to make this a see-saw between Catholic & Protestant.  My one goal is to see men complete in Christ. They, or I, can call themselves by whatever title they want, I don't think those things will be rewards in eternity.
But following the "Model", who is Christ, will be.
We will never know until we see Him face to face the people that have been impacted for the Lord by the simple ways we allow our Lord to live thru us; a kind word, an unselfish act, keeping the faith in the midst of terrible pain or persecution or betrayal.  It is the Lord who gives us light thru these things. And wether we follow Him out of what we see in the physical life of Jesus, or see with the eyes of the spirit, the end ought well be the same.  We have this treasure (life in the Spirit) in earthen vessels... yep, our bodies of clay, so that the excellency of (His) power would be from HIM and not us...  why? Because in that earthen vessel we will have no cause to boast that the "work" was done by us, but we will give praise to whom such work was done... thru us.  
This is the heart stuff that I believe crushes the wall of separation between believers of different ( I hate to say it) denominational (yuck!) perspective.  
No robes will I wear when and if I meet you on terra firma, brother Gordon!


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## Israel (Nov 11, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> Well, I don't want to make this a see-saw between Catholic & Protestant.  My one goal is to see men complete in Christ. They, or I, can call themselves by whatever title they want, I don't think those things will be rewards in eternity.
> But following the "Model", who is Christ, will be.
> We will never know until we see Him face to face the people that have been impacted for the Lord by the simple ways we allow our Lord to live thru us; a kind word, an unselfish act, keeping the faith in the midst of terrible pain or persecution or betrayal.  It is the Lord who gives us light thru these things. And wether we follow Him out of what we see in the physical life of Jesus, or see with the eyes of the spirit, the end ought well be the same.  We have this treasure (life in the Spirit) in earthen vessels... yep, our bodies of clay, so that the excellency of (His) power would be from HIM and not us...  why? Because in that earthen vessel we will have no cause to boast that the "work" was done by us, but we will give praise to whom such work was done... thru us.
> This is the heart stuff that I believe crushes the wall of separation between believers of different ( I hate to say it) denominational (yuck!) perspective.
> No robes will I wear when and if I meet you on terra firma, brother Gordon!



amen.
identity is a precious liberty, we get to answer who we are.
and when whose we are is all that matters we know that finally...there's not even any use for any of our own words.
God knows those who are his...


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