# Legal or Not?



## dertiedawg (May 13, 2009)

These questions have come up before and I have read some changes that are in the works (can be found on the www.gohuntgeorgia.com website) as well as the hunting manual being updated.  So I sent the following information to the Game Management Office via their website.  Feel free to coment

In the hunting manual under the section of LEGAL FIREARMS & ARCHERY EQUIPMENT, it reads as follows: DEER & BEAR FIREARMS: Modern Rifles and Handguns: Centerfire Only, .22-cal. or larger with expanding bullets.

With several people that I have spoken with and on the GON forum, there seems to be some confusion as to what an "expanding bullet" is.  The question has come up as to whether or not you can use "hard cast lead" bullets.  I have spoken with someone at the Gainesville Game Management Office and they said Hard Cast Lead IS legal. Others on the forum say they have spoken with the Game Management Offices in their regions and that they said Hard Cast Lead is NOT legal. These bullets do expand but very little.  It is in my opinion and the opinion of many hunters that Hard Cast Lead bullets are far superior to taking down game then soft lead bullets and generally, will always pass through leaving a good blood trail and exit wound.  Soft lead bullets, at times, tend not to pass through and exit, especially when hitting bone, making it difficult to track your game. It would be a great help if this would be clarified in the hunting regulations manual.  If not allowed in rifles, it should most definitely be allowed in handguns as they do not generate the velocity and energy that rifles do.

Another concern is Black Powder or Muzzleloaders.  The manual states the following:
Muzzleloaders: .44-cal. or larger, or
muzzleloading shotguns 20 gauge or larger. Scopes are legal.
Primitive Weapons: Legal weapons during
primitive weapons season include crossbows, bow and arrow, and muzzleloading firearm. Scopes are legal.
Muzzleloader to my understanding is a firearm loaded through the "muzzle". Does this mean that only firearms which load through the muzzle are legal or are any "BLACKPOWDER" firearms legal for this application? Once again, I have called the Gainesville Management Office (it was last year and I don't recall the name of the gentleman I spoke with) and they tell me all Blackpowder firearms are legal for hunting. This also should be clarified in the Hunting Manual.

Lastly, why is it that in the National Forest, Feral Hog can only be hunted during an open season. They are destructive animals and are not indigenous to Georgia and should be open to being hunted on the National Forest all year long.
Thank you,
Vincent


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## irocz2u (May 13, 2009)

i do know coyotie  is  legal to hunt  national forest all year  long


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## jkoch (May 13, 2009)

Hard cast lead is legal! During the Primitive weapon season. you must use a "muzzle loader" no black powder cartrage.


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## Larry Rooks (May 13, 2009)

Hard Cast bullets ARE legal, the do expand, maybe not quite as much as a soft lead or whimpy jacketed bullets.
Non expandable bullets, FMJ or BALL are illegal to hunt
with.  Uncle Sam developed the BALL and FMJ to go along
with the Geneva Convintion, shoot people with only non
expandable bullets to do less damage  The
have a tendancy of going right thru with a small entrance and exit with littel blood lose


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## Twenty five ought six (May 13, 2009)

"Hard cast lead" bullets are not expanding bullets by anyone's definition.  However, that said, I've never heard of anyone being charged with hunting with a non-expanding bullet who was using a hard cast bullet.  On the other hand I am aware of numerous cases being made against people hunting with FMJ bullets, toward which the law is directed.  Frankly, unless you had one engraved "hard cast bullet", I doubt that there are many LEOs that can tell the  difference or care (or are aware of the issue).

It's a primitive weapons season, not a black powder season.  Here's the law.



> 2) During primitive weapon hunts or primitive weapons seasons, longbows, recurve bows, crossbows, compound bows, muzzleloading firearms of .44 caliber or larger, and muzzleloading shotguns of 20 gauge or larger loaded with single shot may be used;




On National Forests, you can hunt any animal according to state law.  Where it gets tricky is that much of the National Forest is in WMA's, and on a WMA you follow WMA rules.


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## dertiedawg (May 13, 2009)

I too believe the Hard Cast bullets are legal but there are some that dont believe so and have been told by their regional Game Warden that they are not legal.  Last thing I want is for the "law" to misinterpret the law and hassle me for it.  Sometimes these things create a "gray" area which can be interpreted differently.  How many times do you hear of a licensed citizen being hassled for being printed?!


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## EMC-GUN (May 15, 2009)

I cast all my own bullets for rifle and handgun. Killed 2 dear last year with "hard cast" bullets. Complete pass through and no bullets recovered. I will continue to use them as well. I don't believe that there are many Game Wardens that have even a remote clue as to what the difference between hard and soft cast bullets are. I have heard that "hard cast" are illegal in GA, but only on this Site. Nowhere else. Be wary of what you hear on websites. There are plenty of keyboard commandos out there who will repeat and regurgitate everything they hear as gospel. Lead does expand. Even if it is hard.


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## markland (May 15, 2009)

There are no stipulations to hard cast bullets in the regs, only pertaining to full metal jacket bullets.  And, muzzle loading firearms are guns that are loaded from the muzzle, not the breech, so that pretty much sums up the answer to that.  Answers are in the regs book, just have to look and read them and not try to reconfigure the wording around.  True, many officers are unsure of the wording on some regulations, so it is best to read in advance and know before you do!  Mark


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## EMC-GUN (May 15, 2009)

I also always carry a Hunting Regulations "magazine" for that year in my truck when I'm out hunting. If the question ever arose about anything I believe I would have to have them show it to me.


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## HandgunHTR (May 15, 2009)

As was posted above, the regulations read

"*Centerfire Only, .22-cal. or larger with expanding bullets*."

That is directly from the regs.  Now, anyone who has used hard cast lead bullets knows that they are not designed, nor do they in practice, expand.  Some of the lead in the front is wiped off, but they don't expand.

I realize that the law was probably written to address the use of FMJ bullets, but as commonly happens with laws, the unintended consequenses are that they have technically made hard-cast bullets illegal.  Once again, I am not arguing enforcement, just facts.


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## markland (May 15, 2009)

Excellent suggestion EMC and 1 all should follow as well, I know I do!  If I get a ticket for something, they better be able to prove it to me or else where going to court!  Mark


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## dertiedawg (May 15, 2009)

HandgunHTR said:


> As was posted above, the regulations read
> 
> "*Centerfire Only, .22-cal. or larger with expanding bullets*."
> 
> ...



This is why I called the game management office.  They said hard cast IS legal.  Now, with this said, say your in the woods and shoot a black bear on a quartering shot.  Bullet goes into the shoulder through the body and lodges under the skin just after it breaks through the hip bone... you take the bear to the warden to be checked out and they pull this hard cast bullet out.  If the reg book says hard cast is legal then there is no question... if it says "expanding bullets only" it can raise the question just as it has here with several people saying it is an expanding bullet... it isn't an expanding bullet... its legal... it not legal... etc.  Having it written in the reg book would just make it CLEAR!!


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## dertiedawg (May 15, 2009)

EMC-GUN said:


> I also always carry a Hunting Regulations "magazine" for that year in my truck when I'm out hunting. If the question ever arose about anything I believe I would have to have them show it to me.


The regulation book would prove nothing because it says "expanding bullets only".  What is your interpretation of an expanding bullet.  Hard Cast is not "designed" to expand although the do expand very very little.  So this game warden tells you the bullet your using is a non expanding bullet and issues you a ticket anyway, then you might as well throw your reg book in the trash.


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## Jim Ammons (May 15, 2009)

EMC-GUN said:


> I also always carry a Hunting Regulations "magazine" for that year in my truck when I'm out hunting. If the question ever arose about anything I believe I would have to have them show it to me.



DNR will tell you that Hunting Regulations booklet is only a guide, they supposedly have the exact wording of the laws in their possession daily.


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## EMC-GUN (May 15, 2009)

Jim Ammons said:


> DNR will tell you that Hunting Regulations booklet is only a guide, they supposedly have the exact wording of the laws in their possession daily.



I guess that's their cover-all then huh?


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## dertiedawg (May 15, 2009)

markland said:


> And, muzzle loading firearms are guns that are loaded from the muzzle, not the breech, so that pretty much sums up the answer to that.  Answers are in the regs book, just have to look and read them and not try to reconfigure the wording around.  True, many officers are unsure of the wording on some regulations, so it is best to read in advance and know before you do!  Mark


It refers to the season as primitive weapons season but under "legal firearms and archery equipment" it says:

Muzzleloaders: .44-cal. or larger, or muzzleloading shotguns 20 gauge or larger. Scopes are legal.
Primitive Weapons: Legal weapons during primitive weapons season include crossbows, bow and arrow, and muzzleloading firearm. Scopes are legal. 

This does not specifically state anything about blackpowder firearms being legal or illegal, just that the season is "Primitive Weapons" and that "Muzzleloaders" are legal.  When I called the game management office they said blackpowder rifles and handguns are LEGAL, but where does it state in the regulations manual.  If I ever run into a problem, it would help to have it say in the reg manual that blackpowder pistols and rifles ARE legal.  There is one thing I have learned when it comes to the law and that is "do not assume anything".


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## EMC-GUN (May 15, 2009)

HandgunHTR said:


> As was posted above, the regulations read
> 
> "*Centerfire Only, .22-cal. or larger with expanding bullets*."
> 
> ...




Everyone agrees that cast bullets, regardless of alloy content composition, are lead based correct? Now as far as expansion is concerned; I could care less if my bullet does not have text book mushrooming! If my "hard cast"  bullet has even the slightest linear compression (nose to base) then it in fact has "expanded" right? If I cast a bullet and it falls from the mold at .430 (44 magnum) then I shoot it into a game animal and it is .432-.433 then it is an expanding bullet. If the Game Warden wants to argue what constitutes "adequate" expansion then I am game. Maybe we could get a ballistician in on the argument, like Dr. Marvin Fackler maybe? The fact that this topic is still garnering such attention is absolutely asinine!


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## Twenty five ought six (May 15, 2009)

> The fact that this topic is still garnering such attention is absolutely asinine!



Strange then, isn't it, that one of the leading manufacturers of high quality lead bullets doesn't think its asinine.



> By contrast, the 45-70 is not a long-range cartridge, but within its 200-yard range it offers some extremely significant advantages over all smaller diameter calibers. _Primary among these is the 45-70’s ability to utilize extremely blunt non-expanding hard-cast bullets.  _
> 
> Second, owing to the substantial diameter of the 45-70, blunt non-expanding bullets produce wound channels entirely adequate to produce quick kills on big game. No expansion is required.
> 
> ...


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## EMC-GUN (May 15, 2009)

I don't get what you're trying to imply, sorry.


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## EMC-GUN (May 15, 2009)

For the sake of argument I just tested a 250gr. Keith style 44 Mag bullet from a Lyman mold #429-421. The bullet was cast from air cooled Wheel Weights (clip-ons). I used a SAECO hardness tester and it registered right at 10. Most of my bullets will range between 8 and 10. So what does that matter to anyone here? Most folks could care less or even know what this means. A reading of 10 is a pretty hard bullet. Will it expand? Sure will. Will a game warden know what hardness or what kind of expansion it will encounter upon being fired into a large game animal? I think not, unless he has me break down a few rounds of my handloaded ammo and then he would have to produce a hardness tester. So what will it be? A SAECO like I have, a Cabine Tree, a Lee Hardness Tester (he may be on a budget ya know). Then we have to determine what is an acceptable level of hardness to facilitate adequate expansion. All the while my game is rotting in the back of my truck! I would hope he would have a dual degree maybe forestry/ballistics or maybe forestry/metallurgy so we could adequately get to the bottom of the perceived broken law. Then of course there are legal ramifications as well; court costs, lawyers, time away from work, etc. etc. etc. Where will it end? This argument is absolute foolishness!! Cast is a killer and they work perfectly!


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## EMC-GUN (May 15, 2009)

It's funny, I just got the new issue of Handloader Magazine and there is a big article on cast bullet expansion.


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## Whiteeagle (May 15, 2009)

Been casting bullets in various cals & wts for years, started with a 30-30 back in 1962 using wheel wts and have had good expansion and "mushrooms"in most. If you have doubts and fears, I suggest you use factory ammo. Also, a Sharps black powder loads from the breech but is accepted where I hunt as a "muzzle loader" as well as cap and ball revolver. I do not however use hard lead or wheel wts to cast bullets for my muzzle loaders, only pure soft lead.


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## EMC-GUN (May 16, 2009)

On a side note I know a Game Warden near me and he is an avid bullet caster and has been for years!


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## shortround1 (May 17, 2009)

dertiedawg said:


> These questions have come up before and I have read some changes that are in the works (can be found on the www.gohuntgeorgia.com website) as well as the hunting manual being updated.  So I sent the following information to the Game Management Office via their website.  Feel free to coment
> 
> In the hunting manual under the section of LEGAL FIREARMS & ARCHERY EQUIPMENT, it reads as follows: DEER & BEAR FIREARMS: Modern Rifles and Handguns: Centerfire Only, .22-cal. or larger with expanding bullets.
> 
> ...


come on guys, u know that the dnr does not want for guys to be trapsing around the national forest and wmas with a firearm all year long.


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## sbrown (May 17, 2009)

To much gray area....if they meant hard cast or FMJ were not allowed then why not just come out and say so? They have not problem with regards to stating steel vs lead when waterfowl hunting or what size shot you can use for certain game, so if this is what was meant then why not just clarify ?


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## Buck111 (May 18, 2009)

My take on the wording is that it only excludes AP rounds. Any bullet will deform or expand.


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## KLR650 (May 18, 2009)

emc-gun said:


> everyone agrees that cast bullets, regardless of alloy content composition, are lead based correct? Now as far as expansion is concerned; i could care less if my bullet does not have text book mushrooming! If my "hard cast"  bullet has even the slightest linear compression (nose to base) then it in fact has "expanded" right? If i cast a bullet and it falls from the mold at .430 (44 magnum) then i shoot it into a game animal and it is .432-.433 then it is an expanding bullet. If the game warden wants to argue what constitutes "adequate" expansion then i am game. Maybe we could get a ballistician in on the argument, like dr. Marvin fackler maybe? The fact that this topic is still garnering such attention is absolutely asinine!



amen


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## dertiedawg (May 18, 2009)

If you guys dont care to participate in this asinine conversation... please feel free to excuse yourselves.


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## EMC-GUN (May 18, 2009)

Not trying to smash you in any way dertiedawg or your original question. Just kind of tiresome when you see the same topic come up and at times folks are so convinced it is a certain way and then they try to convince others of the same. The reg reads like it reads! Period.


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## dertiedawg (May 19, 2009)

EMC-GUN said:


> Not trying to smash you in any way dertiedawg or your original question. Just kind of tiresome when you see the same topic come up and at times folks are so convinced it is a certain way and then they try to convince others of the same. The reg reads like it reads! Period.



I hear you and agree that some questions come up over and over again (sometimes it is much easier to just ask the question again than to read 2 years of past threads trying to find your answer).  In my original post I wasn't asking a question as to what was legal and what wasn't.  I made a request to the DNR and wanted opinions about my request.  I read the reg guide every year cover to cover and some things are just not clear.  The regulation guide can be changed by a simple request if the DNR agrees with what you have brought to the table.  You can check out the gohuntgeorgia website and see what changes are in the works for this year.  These are the proposed hunting regulations for 2009 and 2010, I am guessing they will have to finalize 09 soon in order to print and distribute by mid August.(http://www.gohuntgeorgia.com/documentdetail.aspx?docid=441&pageid=1&category=hunting)  Checkem out and let me know what you think.


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## EMC-GUN (May 19, 2009)

Sweet! I didn't know such a site existed! I have wondered about something like this, because it does change year to year. Thanks for the link!


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## dertiedawg (May 19, 2009)

Received a response from Alex Coley at the DNR today, below in red is his reply cut and pasted.  

It appears that the Georgia Code (see § 27-3-4) does not specifically state whether breach-loading blackpowder weapons are legal or not, but they may be accepted as muzzleloaders or primitive weapons.  There is nothing in the code stating that they are illegal and Alex has only quoted the law in this regard.  I have sent a follow up email to Alex and will post it with his reply once received.  Hard Cast Lead IS legal.

Mr. Velasquez,

Anything that is lead and not full metal jacket is allowed.  The reason
we have this requirement is that pass through is not desirable.  A
bullet that passes through an animal does less damage and has less
knock-down power because not all of the energy is transferred to the
animal.  You may have a better blood trail, but you will also have more
tracking to do.  This results in more crippling loss and less humane
killing of the animal.

regarding muzzleloaders:

From OCGA:

§ 27-3-4.  Legal weapons for hunting wildlife generally 

  It shall be unlawful to hunt wildlife with any weapon, except that:

  (2) During primitive weapon hunts or primitive weapons seasons,
longbows, recurve bows, crossbows, compound bows, muzzleloading firearms
of .44 caliber or larger, and muzzleloading shotguns of 20 gauge or
larger loaded with single shot may be used;

There is no provision for breach-loading primitive weapons.

There are a number of reasons for closure of feral hog season on the
National Forests.  National Forests are mandated to be run as multiple
use areas and they receive significant non-hunting use during the
summer.  From a wildlife management perspective, year-round hunting on
public land is not desirable as it adds unnecessary stress to all
species during the critical young-rearing period.      

Please call or e-mail if you have any further questions.

Sincerely,


Alex Coley
Georgia Department of Natural Resources
Wildlife Resources Division
Game Management-Walton Complex
2065 U.S. Highway 278 S.E.
Social Circle, GA 30025
770-918-6416
Alex.Coley@dnr.state.ga.us


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## jmanon (May 19, 2009)

dertiedawg said:


> Lastly, why is it that in the National Forest, Feral Hog can only be hunted during an open season. They are destructive animals and are not indigenous to Georgia and should be open to being hunted on the National Forest all year long.
> Thank you,
> Vincent



I think this is to make it easier to catch poachers.  Currently, there is no excuse for having a deer rifle on government land outside of big-game season.  If hogs were legal year-round, a poacher would need to be caught red-handed with a deer, because he could always say he was out hunting hogs.  I agree with you that, given the ever-growing hog problem, it'd probably be a better policy to allow hogs to be taken year round even if it makes things a little easier on poachers.


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## dertiedawg (May 19, 2009)

jmanon said:


> I think this is to make it easier to catch poachers.  Currently, there is no excuse for having a deer rifle on government land outside of big-game season.  If hogs were legal year-round, a poacher would need to be caught red-handed with a deer, because he could always say he was out hunting hogs.  I agree with you that, given the ever-growing hog problem, it'd probably be a better policy to allow hogs to be taken year round even if it makes things a little easier on poachers.



According to Alex from the DNR:
There are a number of reasons for closure of feral hog season on the National Forests. National Forests are mandated to be run as multiple use areas and they receive significant non-hunting use during the summer. From a wildlife management perspective, year-round hunting on public land is not desirable as it adds unnecessary stress to all species during the critical young-rearing period.
Then why is it that you can hunt coyotes all year long in the National Forest.


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## KLR650 (May 22, 2009)

EMC-GUN said:


> It's funny, I just got the new issue of Handloader Magazine and there is a big article on cast bullet expansion.



And the last sentence in the article reads:
"And if the deepest penetration is required with a moderate amount of expansion, the unaltered flatnose bullets are the solution"


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## dertiedawg (May 22, 2009)

This article is for Soft Cast, not Hard Cast... big difference between the two!


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## HandgunHTR (May 22, 2009)

dertiedawg said:


> This article is for Soft Cast, not Hard Cast... big difference between the two!



Ding-Ding-Ding!

We have a winner!

Once again, I am not going to get into the arguement about wether or not this rule is enforced on cast bullet users, because as pointed out the visual difference between soft-cast and hard-cast is nonexistant.  However, the regulation _as written_ precludes the use of hard-cast bullets.


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## EMC-GUN (May 22, 2009)

HandgunHTR said:


> Ding-Ding-Ding!
> 
> We have a winner!
> 
> Once again, I am not going to get into the arguement about wether or not this rule is enforced on cast bullet users, because as pointed out the visual difference between soft-cast and hard-cast is nonexistant.  However, the regulation _as written_ precludes the use of hard-cast bullets.



Apparently not according to the aforementioned correspondence between Dertiedawg and Alex Coley.  Just for the record I am deer hunting with a Baby Browning 25ACP with Hard cast bullets!


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## dertiedawg (May 22, 2009)

HandgunHTR said:


> Once again, I am not going to get into the arguement about wether or not this rule is enforced on cast bullet users, because as pointed out the visual difference between soft-cast and hard-cast is nonexistant.  However, the regulation _as written_ pprecludes the use of hard-cast bullets.


  And we have confirmed that Hard Cast IS legal, so there is no question.  I did however get a response from the DNR about breach-loading blackpowder and it is NOT legal for primitive weapons season.  Can't believe that, but it is true.  We need to have the legislation changed.  Wonder what our first step would have to be, anyone know?


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## dertiedawg (May 22, 2009)

My email reply to Alex at the DNR

Alex, thank you for the reply and for clarifying some of my questions. 
However, with your statement "There is no provision for breach-loading
primitive weapons", I am still uncertain as to whether a blackpowder
rifle or handgun is legal for hunting.  I would find it hard to believe
these primitive style weapons are not legal for hunting.  Are
blackpowder breach-loading weapons regarded and accepted as
muzzleloaders and therefore legal?  Are they regarded and accepted as
primitive weapons and therefore legal?  Does being without provision
make them not legal?

Also, would it be feasible to have the regulations manual updated to
indicate that anything lead is legal for hunting ammo and only non
expanding full metal jacket is not legal.  What would we have to do to
get the Georgia code updated for "breach-loading blackpowder" weapons. 
Just want to eliminate some of the confusion I have seen as a result of
the regulations manual being somewhat unclear.

Thanks,
Vincent


Response from the DNR:

Vincent,

They are breach-loading, not muzzle-loading, so they are not legal.  To
make them legal would require a law change from the legislature.  Again,
the regulations guide is based on the law.  The law says expanding
bullet, so the regulations guide needs to use the same language.  We
cannot put anything regulation-wise in the popular guide that is not in
the law.

Alex

I am very disappointed to hear this as for the longest time I have been wanting to get a T/C Encore in 209x50 for blackpowder.  Last year I spoke with someone at the Gainesville Game Management Office and he told me all blackpowder weapons ARE legal.  But now we see that how the law is interpreted by one law enforcement individual may not be the same as another law enforcement individual.  This is why I requested clarification.


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## KLR650 (May 22, 2009)

OK maybe I am simple minded and easly confused but why would you think you can not use a T/C Encore?

It is a muzzleloader with a removable breach for cleaning not loading. 

I just sold my Encore 209x50 and 7mm08, it is a fine setup but I needed a lighter setup.

EDITED TO ADD:

I think many folks are confused and ill informed when they throw around the word "hard cast". Most people who cast there own use a base of wheel weights and alloy up from there. True hard cast(lino type) is extreemly hard and usually alloyed down when cast into bullets. There is also heat treated bullets(Beartooth) that can be partialy annealed, I personaly use WW and am playing with heat treating them.


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## dertiedawg (May 22, 2009)

I had no idea that it loaded through the muzzle, I thought it loaded through the breach.  The pistol and rifle would both load through the muzzle then, correct?  Please excuse my ignorance.


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## EMC-GUN (May 22, 2009)

KLR650 said:


> OK maybe I am simple minded and easly confused but why would you think you can not use a T/C Encore?
> 
> It is a muzzleloader with a removable breach for cleaning not loading.
> 
> ...



So true about Linotype! A hard cast bullet, when run at moderate velocities, will not obdurate fully anyway resulting in leading and poor accuracy. My cast are 8-10 on SAECO scale. Very similar to Lyman #2.


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## KLR650 (May 22, 2009)

dertiedawg said:


> I had no idea that it loaded through the muzzle, I thought it loaded through the breach.  The pistol and rifle would both load through the muzzle then, correct?  Please excuse my ignorance.



That is correct. I am not extreemly learned but the only "breach loading" BP that I know of is black powder cartrige and that is concidered a modern round because it can be shot thru ANY firearm chambered for that round i.e. putting FF in my .357 instead of 2400.


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## dertiedawg (May 22, 2009)

Thats what I was talking about... the black powder cartridge, but thought it was used in the Encore.  This is goood!!  Guess I will be using a muzzleloader this year after all.  First time for me!!


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## KLR650 (May 22, 2009)

EMC-GUN said:


> So true about Linotype! A hard cast bullet, when run at moderate velocities, will not obdurate fully anyway resulting in leading and poor accuracy. My cast are 8-10 on SAECO scale. Very similar to Lyman #2.



I would crawl out on a limb and say probably 85% of folks use just straight wheel weight. On the occation that I can get my hands on pure lead I will alloy up with tin to 16:1 and if I want to push fast than 1800fps I use a gascheck


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## KLR650 (May 22, 2009)

dertiedawg said:


> Thats what I was talking about... the black powder cartridge, but thought it was used in the Encore.  This is goood!!  Guess I will be using a muzzleloader this year after all.  First time for me!!



BPC is a whole different animal. I have a buddy that shoots Creedmore BPC out to 1000yrds.

I forget which state but somewhere out west when they say primitive weapons season that is what they mean, flintlock with patched ball(scopes, conical bullets and primer/caps are verboten as are compound bows)


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## Twenty five ought six (May 22, 2009)

Years ago, I scored some real linotype from a printer.  Still have some.  It made indifferent bullets for pistols.  It is very very hard.  I would always add some pure lead, or solder.  Using solder to bump the tin content makes for some pretty bullets.

I shot a couple of deer with the linotype bullets in a .44 rifle.  I didn't recover the bullets, and if there was any expansion, it was not noticeable from the wound.  I'm not knocking it -- a .44 cal. wound is a .44 caliber wound -- and there's no question about it being  a through and through shot.  Never had a chance to test them on a tough skinned animal such as a pig.



> I forget which state but somewhere out west when they say primitive weapons season that is what they mean, flintlock with patched ball(scopes, conical bullets and primer/caps are verboten as are compound bows)



Pennsylvania was that way until recently.  In fact, I think it had to be smoothed bore.  Haven't looked recently to see if it still is that way.


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## LKennamer (May 22, 2009)

*I had no idea it was this confusing*

Any rifle or shotgun that you have to put the bullet down through the MUZZLE is a muzzleloader.  I don't shoot an Encore (correct me please if I am wrong), but the bullet goes down the muzzle from the front and the percussion cap goes in the breach, right?  If so, it is legal.  I can't speak specifically to the cast bullet question, but the 'spirit' of the law seems to be correctly interpreted here, it was meant to exclude military ammo, in which case home-made cast lead bullets are fine as far as I can tell.  As far as the NF lands regulations are concerned, the open season for any game is set within the framework of the law.  However, the landowner has the right to specify when any type of hunting is legal on the property.  In the case of state-owned WMAs for example, the seasons are set by the DNR board within the framework.  On NF lands, the Feds have the final say on what can go on on those lands.  The state cannot compel them to do anything they don't want to do, and Federal laws regarding weapons, etc. will supercede anything the state does anyway.  Worst case scenario, if the Feds made it law that on Federal lands you could only use archery equipment, that would put us in a pickle, wouldn't it?


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## KLR650 (May 22, 2009)

I have used my .357 pet load(180WFPgc/16.3gr H110) on pigs many many time when I lived in the flatland and it is big medicine for porkers. I am playing with a 190gr tumble lube bullet now that I will use this coming season, after blackpowder(T/C Renegade .54 with patched ball)


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