# Over My Dead Body, Son



## Double Barrel BB (Mar 5, 2009)

*Over My Dead Body, Son*


March 5, 2009  |  By: John Piper 

Category: Commentary 


Come on, dads, have some courage. Just say, “Over my dead body are you going to wrestle a girl.” Of course, they will call you prudish. But everything in you knows better. 

Yes, I am talking to the _boys’_ fathers. If the girls’ fathers don’t care how boys manhandle their daughters, you will have to take the lead. Give your sons a bigger nobler vision of what it is to be a man. Men don’t fight _against_ women. They fight _for_ women. 






They called it history-making here in Minneapolis. Yesterday, Elissa Reinsma became the first female to compete in the state high school wrestling tournament. It was not a step forward. Some cultures spend a thousand years unlearning the brutality of men toward women. This is an odd way to make history. Relive prehistory maybe. 

One cheerleader said, “I’m sure it’s weird for other people, especially if they’ve never experienced having to wrestle a girl.” That’s hopeful. Because it _is_ “weird.” Most people feel it. But who has the courage to trace this sense of weirdness back to the profound principles of mature manhood and womanhood? 

It’s just too uncool. The worst curse that can fall on us is to be seen as one of those nutcases who hasn’t entered the modern world. This is not about courageous commitment to equality; it’s about wimpy fear of criticism for doing what our hearts know is right. 

Wrestling obliges you to grab, squeeze, and pull with all your might. If a boy tries not to touch or grasp a wrestler around the chest, or not to let his legs entwine with the other wrestler, or not to slam his full body length on hers, he will wrestle with a handicap. Of course, he is being taught that handicap is not a virtue. 

Get real, dads. You know exactly what almost every healthy boy is thinking. If a jock from Northern Minnesota encircles her around the breasts and twists his leg around her thighs, trust me, he will dream about that tonight. Only in his dream she won’t have clothes on. And if he doesn’t dream it, half the boys in the crowd will. Wake up dads. You know this. 

Manly gentleness is not an epidemic in our culture. Rap videos, brutal movies, fatherless homes, and military madness have already made thousands of women the victim of man’s abuse. Now we would make the high school version of feministic nature-denial a partner in this undermining of masculine gentleness. 
When the apostle of Jesus tells us to live with our wives “in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel” (1Peter 3:7), he dumps a truckload of wisdom that fathers should build into their sons. 

There is a way to honor a woman. That’s our job as men. This honor “understands” something. It understands that women are the “weaker vessel.” This has nothing to do with less personal worth and in many cases not even with physical stamina. It has to do with pervasive realities that shape the way healthy societies work. 

It means that we should raise sons to think of themselves as protectors. Tell them they should lay their lives down to protect girls. Help them know that God designed them to grow up to be a picture of Jesus in their marriage. Nurture the instinct of a boy to fight _for_ girls not against them. 

I just watched a wrestling instructional video on line, illustrating some basic moves for the takedown and pin. These two guys are pressing and pulling on each other with unfettered and total contact. And it isn’t soft. It’s what we do not allow our sons to do to girls. 

Okay, dads, here’s what you tell your son. You say, “There will be no belittling comments about her being 'a girl.' There will be no sexual slurs. If you get matched with her, you simply say to the judges, ‘Sir, I won’t wrestle a girl. My parents have taught me not to touch a girl that way. I think it would dishonor her. I hope you will match me with a guy. If not, I am willing to be disqualified. It’s that important.’” 

Be a leader, dad. Your sons need you. The peer pressure is huge. They need manly restraints. They know this is wrong. But then they look around, and the groundswell of conformity seems irresistible. It will take a real man, a real father, to say to his son. “Not on my watch, son. We don’t fight women. I have not raised you that way.”


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## celticfisherman (Mar 5, 2009)

I have seen this several times lately. Frightening how we have masculinized women and feminized men.


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## WTM45 (Mar 5, 2009)

Not all women are weaker vessels.
Some fathers only need to worry how their son will take a loss......


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## celticfisherman (Mar 5, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Not all women are weaker vessels.
> Some fathers only need to worry how their son will take a loss......



How we treat our Women and Children is in direct relation to the health of our society and culture.


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## WTM45 (Mar 5, 2009)

Who is mistreating anyone?
A girl wants to wrestle.  Her parents say "OK."  She wrestles boys because there are no girl wrestling leagues.
She wins, or she loses.  It is purely competition.
She loses hard enough, she will give up the dream.  Lots of boys do the same thing as well.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 5, 2009)

The article is not about wrestling... it is about treatment of women...

DB BB


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## celticfisherman (Mar 5, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> The article is not about wrestling... it is about treatment of women...
> 
> DB BB



Exactly.


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## WTM45 (Mar 5, 2009)

No, it blatently uses the example of ONE woman who wishes to wrestle competitively, and makes inference that any man who meets her challenge is immoral (as well as the man's parents).


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## celticfisherman (Mar 5, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> No, it blatently uses the example of ONE woman who wishes to wrestle competitively, and makes inference that any man who meets her challenge is immoral (as well as the man's parents).



Do you want your daughters being touched and handled that way by a boy?


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 5, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> No, it blatently uses the example of ONE woman who wishes to wrestle competitively, and makes inference that any man who meets her challenge is immoral (as well as the man's parents).


 

Well yeah... it is immoral...  I wouldn't want my son to be grabbing her places that he shouldn't be grabbing... and tossing her around as hard as he could... does nothing but help justify doing it to other women...

DB BB


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## WTM45 (Mar 5, 2009)

I've wrestled.  Training and competition focuses you on the task of scoring and technique.  Sex is not on the mind of a serious competitor.  It is a religious belief system that makes the attempts to focus on such nonsense.

No technique, no strength, no conditioning and you will be out of competition quickly.

I have no problem with a girl in athletic competition against men, if they are indeed competitive.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 5, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> I've wrestled. Training and competition focuses you on the task of scoring and technique. Sex is not on the mind of a serious competitor. It is a religious belief system that makes the attempts to focus on such nonsense.
> 
> No technique, no strength, no conditioning and you will be out of competition quickly.
> 
> I have no problem with a girl in athletic competition against men, if they are indeed competitive.


 

You might need to go spend some time in a boy's lockroom with teenagers today... It might open your eyes... of course they might not say anything with an adult present...

DB BB


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## WTM45 (Mar 5, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Well yeah... it is immoral...  I wouldn't want my son to be grabbing her places that he shouldn't be grabbing... and tossing her around as hard as he could... does nothing but help justify doing it to other women...
> 
> DB BB



Sorry, but that is rediculous.  Wrestling is not a free for all fight.  It is about technique, strength, agility, speed and accuracy.
Wrestlers grow into some of the most dedicated and trustworthy individuals in society.  It is because of the intense training and commitment that is involved.


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## celticfisherman (Mar 5, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> I've wrestled.  Training and competition focuses you on the task of scoring and technique.  Sex is not on the mind of a serious competitor.  It is a religious belief system that makes the attempts to focus on such nonsense.
> 
> No technique, no strength, no conditioning and you will be out of competition quickly.
> 
> I have no problem with a girl in athletic competition against men, if they are indeed competitive.



Nope. As a father of daughters this would not be allowed in my family. This is in BB words immoral. This is wrong. No way to justify it. Sorry. There isn't one. This is not protecting our women.


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## WTM45 (Mar 5, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> You might need to go spend some time in a boy's lockroom with teenagers today... It might open your eyes... of course they might not say anything with an adult present...
> 
> DB BB



Wrestlers are the cream of the crop.  They go through intense tryouts, training regimens and dedication inquiry.


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## celticfisherman (Mar 5, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Sorry, but that is rediculous.  Wrestling is not a free for all fight.  It is about technique, strength, agility, speed and accuracy.
> Wrestlers grow into some of the most dedicated and trustworthy individuals in society.  It is because of the intense training and commitment that is involved.


Why jsut today... I ain't THAT old. The lockeroom in my football playing years was well......... Uh...... Not a bunch that needs to be wrestling with women.


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## celticfisherman (Mar 5, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Sorry, but that is rediculous.  Wrestling is not a free for all fight.  It is about technique, strength, agility, speed and accuracy.
> Wrestlers grow into some of the most dedicated and trustworthy individuals in society.  It is because of the intense training and commitment that is involved.



So we can perfect the nature of boys who have hormones raging thru them and who are already confused and excited about sex as it is???


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## WTM45 (Mar 5, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Nope. As a father of daughters this would not be allowed in my family. This is in BB words immoral. This is wrong. No way to justify it. Sorry. There isn't one. This is not protecting our women.



That's your choice as a parent.  

Women can be soldiers, sailors, airmen, coasties, Marines, prison guards, black belts, deputy sherrifs, police officers, FBI agents, ATF agents......the list goes on.

Wrestling is a foundation of training and competition.
It is not a moral/religious/ethical issue unless parents who are fanatical religious belief system followers make it out to be so.

I'd want my daughter to give 100% into whatever she desired to be.  Wrestling can build that confidence and ability to be successful at any of the jobs listed above, and many others I have not mentioned.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 5, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Sorry, but that is rediculous. Wrestling is not a free for all fight. It is about technique, strength, agility, speed and accuracy.
> Wrestlers grow into some of the most dedicated and trustworthy individuals in society. It is because of the intense training and commitment that is involved.


 
I agree it is about about technique, strength, agility, speed and accuracy...

I am not questioning their dedication or trustworthyness...

What I am questioning is the fact that no man should ever use those techniques on a girl/lady/wife!

Women's body's are built for endurance, men's bodies are built for strength and speed of use of that strength... 2 totally different body types....

Whats to say a wrestler that wrestles girls, decides well if I can do it in the ring, I can do it oustide the ring?

DB BB


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## Free Willie (Mar 5, 2009)

I was raslin' around with mama last night and I can assure you that there was only one thing on my mind.

That being said, I would never let my daughters wrestle. I would also not let my sons wrestle girls. 

Period.


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## WTM45 (Mar 5, 2009)

If you trained as a wrestler, tried to make the weight/team, competed or failed at wrestling, you would know that sex is the last thing that crosses your mind during a match.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 5, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Wrestlers are the cream of the crop. They go through intense tryouts, training regimens and dedication inquiry.


 

Maybe physically... but not mentally... 

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 5, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> That's your choice as a parent.
> 
> Women can be soldiers, sailors, airmen, coasties, Marines, prison guards, black belts, deputy sherrifs, police officers, FBI agents, ATF agents......the list goes on.
> 
> ...


 

Appreciate the fanatical comment.... haven't been called that yet on here....

DB BB


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## WTM45 (Mar 5, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> What I am questioning is the fact that no man should ever use those techniques on a girl/lady/wife!
> 
> Women's body's are built for endurance, men's bodies are built for strength and speed of use of that strength... 2 totally different body types....



Not every woman is prepared physically or mentally for physical confrontation or a competition of strength and endurance.
We can not stereotype women in this fashon.  Just like we can not stereotype men in this fashon.

Thankfully, there are women who will take the oath and deal with female inmates.  Ever tried to cuff a beligerent female?


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## fivesolas (Mar 5, 2009)

Agreed. My daughters ain't wrestlin' and the boys ain't takin' ballet lessons. Plain and simple. Let the men be men, and the girls be girls.


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## WTM45 (Mar 5, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Appreciate the fanatical comment.... haven't been called that yet on here....
> 
> DB BB




Only take that to heart if you believe it is so.  I did not direct that at you alone.  I have no reason to believe that you are.  It is for those who believe a woman should be in a long dress and in the kitchen that I define as fanatical.


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## celticfisherman (Mar 5, 2009)

Free Willie said:


> I was raslin' around with mama last night and I can assure you that there was only one thing on my mind.
> 
> That being said, I would never let my daughters wrestle. I would also not let my sons wrestle girls.
> 
> Period.




AMEN!!!

Wrestlin with Momma is a LOT of fun and ain't nothing like wrestlin on my mind...


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 5, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> If you trained as a wrestler, tried to make the weight/team, competed or failed at wrestling, you would know that sex is the last thing that crosses your mind during a match.


 

That is when you are wrestling other guys...

You ever wrestled a girl?

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 5, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Only take that to heart if you believe it is so. I did not direct that at you alone. I have no reason to believe that you are. It is for those who believe a woman should be in a long dress and in the kitchen that I define as fanatical.


 

My wife and girls wear long dresses...

DB BB


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## celticfisherman (Mar 5, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> If you trained as a wrestler, tried to make the weight/team, competed or failed at wrestling, you would know that sex is the last thing that crosses your mind during a match.



Yeah right!!!


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## fivesolas (Mar 5, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> My wife and girls wear long dresses...
> 
> DB BB



So do mine. Praise God for their godliness.

Maybe the gainsayers will now call us puritanical.


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## fishndinty (Mar 5, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Maybe physically... but not mentally...
> 
> DB BB



This is a stereotype with no justification.  My smartest friend in HS and college was a wrestler, and he scored a 2150 on his GRE exam....that's a ridiculously good score, BTW.

There is a difference between sport and society that is inherent.  When "gladiators" pound each other legally on the football field, we watch with baited breath.  If someone tackled another man that way off the field, we would call the police and report an assault.

If the girl wants to be a part of an athletic competition, she should be allowed.  There is nothing, absolutely nothing, immoral about it.  There are no societal implications, as sport and society are two distinct realms of interpersonal interaction (as I have convincingly shown above).

This argument is silly.


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## WTM45 (Mar 5, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> That is when you are wrestling other guys...
> 
> You ever wrestled a girl?
> 
> DB BB



Yes.  And I have lost.  I have been nearly knocked unconcious by a female in judo training too.
I tried Army style hallway brawling techniques during a hand to hand exercise with a highly experienced female black belt and she had me in submission.
In three falls, I fell once.

I never got to wrestle a female in competition during my high school days.


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## fishndinty (Mar 5, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> So do mine. Praise God for their godliness.
> 
> Maybe the gainsayers will now call us puritanical.



So God wears long dresses?  Perhaps you'd do better to praise God for the hearts of your daughters and wives than the length of their skirts.


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## celticfisherman (Mar 5, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> So do mine. Praise God for their godliness.
> 
> Maybe the gainsayers will now call us puritanical.



Worse things than being a puritan.

Like being a yankee.


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## WTM45 (Mar 5, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> My wife and girls wear long dresses...
> 
> DB BB



Their choices and happiness are completely individual.  I wish them continued happiness!


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## WTM45 (Mar 5, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Worse things than being a puritan.
> 
> Like being a yankee.



Physical location does not change one's state of mind.
I was not Korean while in Korea.  I was not W. German when I was in Germany.  I was not ElSalvadoran when in ElSal........


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 5, 2009)

fishndinty said:


> This is a stereotype with no justification. My smartest friend in HS and college was a wrestler, and he scored a 2150 on his GRE exam....that's a ridiculously good score, BTW.
> 
> There is a difference between sport and society that is inherent. When "gladiators" pound each other legally on the football field, we watch with baited breath. If someone tackled another man that way off the field, we would call the police and report an assault.
> 
> ...


 
Most of the guys I played with were dumb as bricks, but could play no doubt...

I would beg to differ about a seperation on sport and society... plenty of evidence of abuse that women suffer at the hands of their significant other...  

when you mix the sexs is when it is another type of ball game...

DB BB


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## gtparts (Mar 5, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Sorry, but that is rediculous.  Wrestling is not a free for all fight.  It is about technique, strength, agility, speed and accuracy.
> Wrestlers grow into some of the most dedicated and trustworthy individuals in society.  It is because of the intense training and commitment that is involved.



Both males and females can accomplish the goals of developing strength, agility, and speed without engaging in mixed gender competition on the wrestling mat. Issues of character such as dedication and trustworthiness are not necessarily resolved or developed in sports competition and can definitely be cultivated in other activities that do not involve mixed gender contact sports.


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## celticfisherman (Mar 5, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Physical location does not change one's state of mind.
> I was not Korean while in Korea.  I was not W. German when I was in Germany.  I was not ElSalvadoran when in ElSal........



You should know by now I was making a joke. 

But using Yankee as a literal term so to speak is not a location but a description of the Union states. Their idea of Gov't, religion, and society and heritage.

Which is far worse than being a Puritan...


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 5, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Yes. And I have lost. I have been nearly knocked unconcious by a female in judo training too.
> I tried Army style hallway brawling techniques during a hand to hand exercise with a highly experienced female black belt and she had me in submission.
> In three falls, I fell once.
> 
> I never got to wrestle a female in competition during my high school days.


 

To some of the sick puppies we have in society... they would have gotten off on what had happen to you....

DB BB


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## fivesolas (Mar 5, 2009)

fishndinty said:


> So God wears long dresses?  Perhaps you'd do better to praise God for the hearts of your daughters and wives than the length of their skirts.



Perhaps you would do better leading your women in purity and than taking shots at godliness.


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## dawg2 (Mar 5, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Yes.  And I have lost.  I have been nearly knocked unconcious by a female in judo training too.
> I tried Army style hallway brawling techniques during a hand to hand exercise with a highly experienced female black belt and she had me in submission.
> In three falls, I fell once.
> 
> I never got to wrestle a female in competition during my high school days.



I spar with women in my Tae Kwon Do class.  Even been kicked in the face by one.  She's good.  I kicked her in the stomach  But our sparring training is not  "segregated" for a good reason.  A woman will most likely be fighting / defending themselves against a MALE attacker.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 5, 2009)

fishndinty said:


> So God wears long dresses? Perhaps you'd do better to praise God for the hearts of your daughters and wives than the length of their skirts.


 
You totally missed the point of the post...

DB BB


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## celticfisherman (Mar 5, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> Perhaps you would do better leading your women in purity and than taking shots at godliness.



Our purpose is to protect the dignity of our wives and daughters.

When that happens our civilization flourishes.

When it doesn't. We have abortion and rape on scales we cannot fathom. Like welllllllllllll now!


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## WTM45 (Mar 5, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> You should know by now I was making a joke.
> 
> But using Yankee as a literal term so to speak is not a location but a description of the Union states. Their idea of Gov't, religion, and society and heritage.
> 
> Which is far worse than being a Puritan...



Metro Atlanta has more than its share of that, I'll agree!


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 5, 2009)

gtparts said:


> Both males and females can accomplish the goals of developing strength, agility, and speed without engaging in mixed gender competition on the wrestling mat. Issues of character such as dedication and trustworthiness are not necessarily resolved or developed in sports competition and can definitely be cultivated in other activities that do not involve mixed gender contact sports.


 
Thank you GT!!!!!! 

*AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## WTM45 (Mar 5, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> To some of the sick puppies we have in society... they would have gotten off on what had happen to you....
> 
> DB BB



Those types get weeded out quickly in competitive wrestling.
Funny what a blow to the head will do to one's motivation.


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## celticfisherman (Mar 5, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Metro Atlanta has more than its share of that, I'll agree!



If the South would have won...


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 5, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> I spar with women in my Tae Kwon Do class. Even been kicked in the face by one. She's good. I kicked her in the stomach But our sparring training is not "segregated" for a good reason. A woman will most likely be fighting / defending themselves against a MALE attacker.


 
Sparing is totally different from full onslaught of everything you have against another individual... atleast it was for me when I was in Karate...

DB BB


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## fivesolas (Mar 5, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Worse things than being a puritan.
> 
> Like being a yankee.



I ain't no Yankee. lol


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 5, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Those types get weeded out quickly in competitive wrestling.
> Funny what a blow to the head will do to one's motivation.


 

Of course it could also motivate someone to revenge also...

DB BB


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## celticfisherman (Mar 5, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> I ain't no Yankee. lol



I know I am sticking up for you. Since that hasn't happened much I understand the misconception...

But ain't nothing wrong with Puritanism.


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## WTM45 (Mar 5, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> I spar with women in my Tae Kwon Do class.  Even been kicked in the face by one.  She's good.  I kicked her in the stomach  But our sparring training is not  "segregated" for a good reason.  A woman will most likely be fighting / defending themselves against a MALE attacker.



Very true.  And the confidence gained for a woman while training against male opponents can not be matched in a segregated dojo.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 5, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> I ain't no Yankee. lol


 

*Southern by the Grace of God!!!!!!!*


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## Big7 (Mar 5, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> I have seen this several times lately. Frightening how we have masculinized women and feminized men.



From the OP's pic - I can't hardly tell which is which.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 5, 2009)

Big7 said:


> From the OP's pic - I can't hardly tell which is which.


 

I was wondering the same thing also when I read it...


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## dawg2 (Mar 5, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Very true.  And the confidence gained for a woman while training against male opponents can not be matched in a segregated dojo.



No, it can not be matched.  In fact, there was a young lady there about 16 who was afraid to spar with me or other "big guys" at first, and now she can defend herself quite well.


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## WTM45 (Mar 5, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Of course it could also motivate someone to revenge also...
> 
> DB BB



And a man who loses to a woman just might start wearing dresses.......

I'll state this, the good that can be gained for women in competition against men greatly outweighs the bad that a man can suffer.

Yes, the world is full of weak men.  What's even weaker is a man that will attempt to prevent a woman from reaching their dreams and supresses their ambitions.
For whatever reason it be, religious, moral, financial, etc......


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## WTM45 (Mar 5, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> No, it can not be matched.  In fact, there was a young lady there about 16 who was afraid to spar with me or other "big guys" at first, and now she can defend herself quite well.




That gets an.......


AMEN!


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 5, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> And a man who loses to a woman just might start wearing dresses.......
> 
> I'll state this, the good that can be gained for women in competition against men greatly outweighs the bad that a man can suffer.
> 
> ...


 

I don't prevent anyone outside of my family from doing anything they want to do... But do not expect me to keep quiet when I see something that is not in agreement with my faith and God's word!

DB BB


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## dawg2 (Mar 5, 2009)

Would anyone oppose a mixed gender/age martial arts class?  Or are you just talking about high school sports?  And why or why not?


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## WTM45 (Mar 5, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> I don't prevent anyone outside of my family from doing anything they want to do... But do not expect me to keep quiet when I see something that is not in agreement with my faith and God's word!
> 
> DB BB




You have that right, DB BB!
I'll gladly fight from foxhole to doorframe to bunker to woodline to basement to vehicle and to the walls of the city to defend that right!

But there is a right of women to be given the same opportunities as men.  And if a Biblical interpretation difference is standing in our way, well, we will just have to agree to disagree!


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 5, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> Would anyone oppose a mixed gender/age martial arts class? Or are you just talking about high school sports? And why or why not?


 
Depends on the type of interaction...

DB BB


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## WTM45 (Mar 5, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> Would anyone oppose a mixed gender/age martial arts class?  Or are you just talking about high school sports?  And why or why not?



Dawg2, you and I know it depends greatly on how the programs are managed and supervised.  Just like women can gain greatly from the competition and challenge, men can gain greatly from the understanding and learning of control, focus, managing conflict and relationships with women. 

A good coach/instructor will let women wrestle/fight and teach them how.  A great coach/instructor will teach the men how to respect and be a worthy opponent to a woman in competition and training.

Both sexes learn.  Both mature and grow up to be more assertive and confident.  Those who have wrestled competitively know exactly what I am talking about.
It aint' 'rasslin in the basement while the parents are at work.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 5, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> And if a Biblical interpretation difference is standing in our way, well, we will just have to agree to disagree!


 
That is probably for the best, I don't think we would have changed each others minds anyway...


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## WTM45 (Mar 5, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> That is probably for the best, I don't think we would have changed each others minds anyway...




Nor was it my intention.  But I do understand where you are coming from, and I respect how you choose to parent your children.


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## Lowjack (Mar 5, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> I have seen this several times lately. Frightening how we have masculinized women and feminized men.


But It Was Prophecied;Romans Chapter1

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,


23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.


24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:


25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.


26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:


27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;


29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,


30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,


31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:


32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


----------



## MustangMAtt30 (Mar 5, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> You should know by now I was making a joke.
> 
> But using Yankee as a literal term so to speak is not a location but a description of the Union states. Their idea of Gov't, religion, and society and heritage.
> 
> Which is far worse than being a Puritan...



My wife grew up in farm country in one of those mid-western Union states that you obviously still hold with the upmost contempt with values the same down here in the South.  You know we ain't got a monopoly on God, Family, Guns, and Conservative values down here.  Alot of them boys and girls up there are the same as you and I....they just talk a little different.  But your comment lumped all of them together with the liberal and big city types up there.


----------



## celticfisherman (Mar 5, 2009)

MustangMAtt30 said:


> My wife grew up in farm country in one of those mid-western Union states that you obviously still hold with the upmost contempt with values the same down here in the South.  You know we ain't got a monopoly on God, Family, Guns, and Conservative values down here.  Alot of them boys and girls up there are the same as you and I....they just talk a little different.  But your comment lumped all of them together with the liberal and big city types up there.



Your comment shows a complete lack of historical understanding. When you get it cleared up by reading history rather than what you have been spoon fed we can talk about it.


----------



## WTM45 (Mar 5, 2009)

Matt does have a valid point.


----------



## celticfisherman (Mar 5, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Matt does have a valid point.



Not in the slightest. First it was not even close to what I said. Second it is historically inaccurate. And to understand so requires time and reading. Not just hs history.


----------



## WTM45 (Mar 5, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Not in the slightest. First it was not even close to what I said. Second it is historically inaccurate. And to understand so requires time and reading. Not just hs history.




So you refer to the term "Yankee" in the way a Brit does.


----------



## celticfisherman (Mar 5, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> So you refer to the term "Yankee" in the way a Brit does.



Close but since I am of Scots Irish ancestry almost all Brits are a little bit below Yankees. 

With the exception of Winston Churchill of course!

But first and foremost you must understand who settled where and what Christian denominations arrived where to understand why his comment is so off.

This is something I have spent my whole life learning and studying. It can be summed up but is better retained if learned in ernest.

You can call them unionists or federalists if you prefer.


----------



## WTM45 (Mar 5, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Close but since I am of Scots Irish ancestry almost all Brits are a little bit below Yankees.
> 
> With the exception of Winston Churchill of course!
> 
> ...




Start a thread.  It would be interesting discussion!


----------



## celticfisherman (Mar 5, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Start a thread.  It would be interesting discussion!



Why it ends with ignorant people claiming the South is racist? If it could be held in honest and respectful debate that would be fine. But too many on here have no idea of history or doctrine so there is not much to discuss past "The South was Right".


----------



## WTM45 (Mar 5, 2009)

It would be better than the derailment that happened to this thread.


----------



## celticfisherman (Mar 5, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> It would be better than the derailment that happened to this thread.



This one never stood a chance....


----------



## Jranger (Mar 5, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> I spar with women in my Tae Kwon Do class.  Even been kicked in the face by one.  She's good.  I kicked her in the stomach  But our sparring training is not  "segregated" for a good reason.  A woman will most likely be fighting / defending themselves against a MALE attacker.



Perhaps all the more reason for her training to be segregated...

I have to agree with WTM on this one. I see nothing wrong with competition in this manner. If she can handle the match, let her fight. If your children are going to learn how to handle themselves with others based on what happens  in competition (boys learning to abuse women from this type of competition), the boys have issues that need to be addressed by a professional anyway.
my .02


----------



## MustangMAtt30 (Mar 5, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Why it ends with ignorant people claiming the South is racist? If it could be held in honest and respectful debate that would be fine. But too many on here have no idea of history or doctrine so there is not much to discuss past "The South was Right".




If you are talking about States Rights my friend I understand them.  My Great-Great-Great Grandfather fought for them.  Speaking of states right, I support them today especially with the mess coming down from the Federal government.

But to group all Northerners and hold them with comptempt makes you sound just as ignorant as those that would brand the South racist.

P.S.......I think the degree on my wall from a University says I got a little further than High School history.  You can cut out the sarcasm.


----------



## fivesolas (Mar 5, 2009)

MustangMAtt30 said:


> If you are talking about States Rights my friend I understand them.  My Great-Great-Great Grandfather fought for them.  I support them today especially with the mess coming down from the Federal government.
> 
> But to group all Northerners and hold them with comptempt makes you sound just as ignorant as those that would brand the South racist.
> 
> P.S.......I think the degree on my wall from a University says I got a little further than High School history.  You can cut out the sarcasm.



The degree on my wall suggests the same too, but I had to chuck 90% of the crap they taught. lol


----------



## Huntinfool (Mar 5, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Men don’t fight _against_ women. They fight _for_ women.



But they're not fighting.  They are competing.  There's a significant difference that Piper missed. 

Would I let me boy wrestle a girl?  Honestly?  Probably not.  But I can't say for sure.

But they are not fighting.  They are simply competing just like they would be in soccer or any other sport.  There is no hate or malice involved and they shake hands and walk away after the competition is over. 

Don't get me wrong...I HATE TITLE 9!!!!  I think it's ridiculous.  But if that girl is good, go for it.  You're gonna get your behind whipped just like everybody else though.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Mar 5, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> The degree on my wall suggests the same too, but I had to chuck 90% of the crap they taught. lol


 



Same Here!!!!

DB BB


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Mar 5, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> But they're not fighting. They are competing. There's a significant difference that Piper missed.
> 
> Would I let me boy wrestle a girl? Honestly? Probably not. But I can't say for sure.
> 
> But they are not fighting. They are simply competing just like they would be in soccer or any other sport. There is no hate or malice involved and they shake hands and walk away after the competition is over.


 

It is a fight with rules.... no different than any other sport...

DB BB


----------



## celticfisherman (Mar 5, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> The degree on my wall suggests the same too, but I had to chuck 90% of the crap they taught. lol



Amen Solas!!!

And no I am not talking about States Rights. That is the problem you do not understand them. Not the reasons for the South's need for defense.

Just keep going though. Like I said if anyone wanted to study it that would be a different story. 

And as for me. 13 members of my family fought in the War and none as Union.


----------



## WTM45 (Mar 5, 2009)

double barrel bb said:


> it is a fight with rules.... No different than any other sport...
> 
> Db bb





rong!


----------



## MustangMAtt30 (Mar 5, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Amen Solas!!!
> 
> And no I am not talking about States Rights. That is the problem you do not understand them. Not the reasons for the South's need for defense.
> 
> ...




Well then, school me up.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Mar 5, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> rong!


 

how is that WRONG?

DB BB


----------



## WTM45 (Mar 5, 2009)

Organized, competitive high school and collegiate wrestling is not fighting.
I do not think I have to explain it at all.

The only fighting found is usually fighting back the desire to vomit during and after workouts.


----------



## Huntinfool (Mar 5, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> It is a fight with rules.... no different than any other sport...
> 
> DB BB



Notice the "no different than any other sport" part of your statement though.

You got problems with girls and boys playing soccer together?

I would say it's a physical struggle.  A fight implies a grievance IMO.  I just don't see that big of an issue.  I will say that she better be able to compete and this better not be about "fair"......that'll get me riled up in a hurry.

I've thought about whether I'd let my girl do it.  I honestly don't know.  I don't think I would, but I can't say for sure because she's only 19 months old.

I'd honestly say that it says more about the fathers of the girls IMO than it does those of boys that wrestle them.


----------



## celticfisherman (Mar 5, 2009)

MustangMAtt30 said:


> Well then, school me up.



Go learn the way I did by research and reading. Otherwise it's like so many other things not valued. And your current learning will just rebel against what I tell you. True knowledge cannot be passed it has to be earned.

Read Dabney's Biography of Stonewall Jackson. I've only read excerpts not the whole thing. Stonewall by Richardson is good too. The South Was Right comes close to understanding it but leaves out the religious connatations and differences between north and south. And AGAIN more importantly WHO settled where.

Read the legislature records from the US House  from the 1860's and see what they said. Read the Constitution of the US and the CSA and what the founders wrote. Read Calvin, Luther, and Jefferson and Adams. Thomas Payne is not nearly as important as National Treasure made him out to be. 

Read the declaration of independance written by the OverMountain people in the Watauga settlement prior to the battl of Kings Mtn in SC in the Rev War.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Mar 5, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Organized, competitive high school and collegiate wrestling is not fighting.
> I do not think I have to explain it at all.
> 
> The only fighting found is usually fighting back the desire to vomit during and after workouts.


 

You are competing one on one... much like a fight that is one on one

now here are the rules... only certain things are allowed.. you would probably know these better than me... I am sure punching and kicking aren't allowed.... etc...

DB BB


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Mar 5, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Notice the "no different than any other sport" part of your statement though.
> 
> You got problems with girls and boys playing soccer together?
> 
> ...


 

I have problems with any mixed gender sports...

DB BB


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Mar 5, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> I would say it's a physical struggle. A fight implies a grievance IMO. I just don't see that big of an issue. I will say that she better be able to compete and this better not be about "fair"......that'll get me riled up in a hurry.


 

What do you mean by the word "Fair" there?


----------



## Huntinfool (Mar 5, 2009)

Well there ya have it.  I don't.  And I think you'd be hard pressed to convince me that there's a biblical basis for it.  Everyone is certainly welcome to be in favor or not in favor.  No issues there.  

I'm just not sure you could make a very good case that God doesn't support it.


----------



## WTM45 (Mar 5, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> You are competing one on one... much like a fight that is one on one..



They are not one in the same, no matter how you want to portray them.

It's not boxing.  It's competitive organized wrestling.  Points are scored through falls, takedowns, pins, holds and positioning.
Injury, knockouts and pain are not the intent.  
Yes, that might be an unintended outcome, but that is found in any activity that requires physical contact.


----------



## Huntinfool (Mar 5, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> What do you mean by the word "Fair" there?



i.e., I want to compete simply because I'm a girl and you said I can't.

The "It's not fair" reason.  It drives me up the wall.  One thing kids DO need to learn is this...

_"Life's not fair kid...get used to disappointment."_


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Mar 5, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Well there ya have it. I don't. And I think you'd be hard pressed to convince me that there's a biblical basis for it. Everyone is certainly welcome to be in favor or not in favor. No issues there.
> 
> I'm just not sure you could make a very good case that God doesn't support it.


 

Perhaps the fact that God said that the woman is a weaker vessel, is of some significance....

DB BB


----------



## WTM45 (Mar 5, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> I have problems with any mixed gender sports...
> 
> DB BB




Did a girl kick your backside at a round of tennis in your past?

I'm just joking.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Mar 5, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> They are not one in the same, no matter how you want to portray them.
> 
> It's not boxing. It's competitive organized wrestling. Points are scored through falls, takedowns, pins, holds and positioning.
> Injury, knockouts and pain are not the intent.
> Yes, that might be an unintended outcome, but that is found in any activity that requires physical contact.


 

Just because you are in a fight doesn't mean you get injured or inflect injury...

It is fighting with the rules you stated above...

DB BB


----------



## WTM45 (Mar 5, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> i.e., I want to compete simply because I'm a girl and you said I can't.
> 
> The "It's not fair" reason.  It drives me up the wall.  One thing kids DO need to learn is this...
> 
> _"Life's not fair kid...get used to disappointment."_




FULL AGREEMENT WITH YOU HERE!
See, it is possible!


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Mar 5, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Did a girl kick your backside at a round of tennis in your past?
> 
> I'm just joking.


 

No.

I have been beaten at minature golf by my wife though...

DB BB


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Mar 5, 2009)

are we going to have to agree to disagree... again?


----------



## celticfisherman (Mar 5, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> No.
> 
> I have been beaten at minature golf by my wife though...
> 
> DB BB



12 years and I have yet to beat my wife at bowling. Doesn't bother me though...


----------



## WTM45 (Mar 5, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Just because you are in a fight doesn't mean you get injured or inflect injury...
> 
> It is fighting with the rules you stated above...
> 
> DB BB




I'm done.  I see things MUCH differently.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Mar 5, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> I'm done. I see things MUCH differently.


 

and here I thought we were actually getting somewhere...

DB BB


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## celticfisherman (Mar 5, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> I'm done.  I see things MUCH differently.



106 posts and you just came to the conclusion we see things in this area MUCH differently?



JK...


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## MustangMAtt30 (Mar 5, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Go learn the way I did by research and reading. Otherwise it's like so many other things not valued. And your current learning will just rebel against what I tell you. True knowledge cannot be passed it has to be earned.
> 
> Read Dabney's Biography of Stonewall Jackson. I've only read excerpts not the whole thing. Stonewall by Richardson is good too. The South Was Right comes close to understanding it but leaves out the religious connatations and differences between north and south. And AGAIN more importantly WHO settled where.
> 
> ...



Alright, I look for some of that at the local bookstore and put it on the summer reading list.  

However, I pose this to you.  Like you I am Scots-Irish as is my wife from Ohio.  She is a Protestant just like me.  Brought up Baptist like me.  We have found that our families are actually are from the Clan of McLeod in Scotland from the Isle of Skye.  We were both raised in rural towns with the same type of values.  We all know that if it was 1861 things would be different.  But it is 2009,  so other than geography, how are we really that different?  Why should she still be lumped together with all of the liberal and big city Northerners although she has much more in common with us?


----------



## celticfisherman (Mar 5, 2009)

MustangMAtt30 said:


> Alright, I look for some of that at the local bookstore and put it on the summer reading list.
> 
> However, I pose this to you.  Like you I am Scots-Irish as is my wife from Ohio.  She is a Protestant just like me.  Brought up Baptist like me.  We have found that our families are actually are from the Clan of McLeod in Scotland from the Isle of Skye.  We were both raised in rural towns with the same type of values.  We all know that if it was 1861 things would be different.  But it is 2009,  so other than geography, how are we really that different?  Why should she still be lumped together with all of the liberal and big city Northerners although she has much more in common with us?



Is she just from there or is she a descendent of Union soldiers? Also most Scots Irish like my family are Presbyterians from WAYYYYYYYY back. Now around the 1900's many went to other denominations. But Mine are from the Campbells. Barclay we have our own Tartan too thank goodness. Would love to have a kilt but I oly have it in a tie right now.


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## rjcruiser (Mar 5, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Is she just from there or is she a descendent of Union soldiers?



You're great granddaddy shot at my great granddaddy


----------



## celticfisherman (Mar 5, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> You're great granddaddy shot at my great granddaddy



Not mine. Not if he missed.

Long line of really good shots right here.


----------



## Huntinfool (Mar 5, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> FULL AGREEMENT WITH YOU HERE!
> See, it is possible!



I know....but don't say that out loud.  You're gonna make my reputation around here a little worse! 


Perhaps you should have said "See, miracles DO happen!"


----------



## rjcruiser (Mar 5, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Not mine. Not if he missed.
> 
> Long line of really good shots right here.



Fortunately, for me, I come from California.....Southern California...so I can say, I'm a southerner

I guess the Lord was good to me in allowing me to marry a true southern girl.


----------



## celticfisherman (Mar 5, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Fortunately, for me, I come from California.....Southern California...so I can say, I'm a southerner
> 
> I guess the Lord was good to me in allowing me to marry a true southern girl.



It's called Grace.


----------



## rjcruiser (Mar 5, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> It's called Grace.


----------



## WTM45 (Mar 5, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> 106 posts and you just came to the conclusion we see things in this area MUCH differently?
> 
> 
> 
> JK...



I think some do not see anything at all, as their blinders are a very snug custom fit!


----------



## celticfisherman (Mar 5, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> I think some do not see anything at all, as their blinders are a very snug custom fit!



Naw. That could be said both ways.


----------



## WTM45 (Mar 5, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Perhaps the fact that God said that the woman is a weaker vessel, is of some significance....
> 
> DB BB



Do you apply your interpretation of this to all things outside the physical realm also?  Such as the ability to learn, teach, reason, make decisions, make money, be successful at business, be independent?


----------



## rjcruiser (Mar 5, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> I think some do not see anything at all, as their blinders are a very snug custom fit!



I'll agree with you on that one.

Problem is, I think that those who say..."you need to be more open-minded" are usually the ones that don't accept the fact that I don't think like them nor do I want to accept their universal open-mindedness (or lack there-of).

So...how do them blinders fit?  Snug?


----------



## WTM45 (Mar 5, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Naw. That could be said both ways.



I thought that was what I just did.


----------



## dawg2 (Mar 5, 2009)

This is what happens when you get a bunch of Protestant Scots together  Thank GOD I'm Irish


----------



## Lowjack (Mar 5, 2009)

Silly people.


----------



## fivesolas (Mar 5, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> This is what happens when you get a bunch of Protestant Scots together  Thank GOD I'm Irish



I'm Irish, Protestant Baptist.


----------



## dawg2 (Mar 5, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> I'm Irish, Protestant Baptist.



You mean "repatriated English"


----------



## WTM45 (Mar 5, 2009)

Eh, most of us are descendants of simple peons, destined for debtor colonies to pay off their debts to the crown.
Now, we are all still the same, only paying off a different monarch, the "annointed one" Obama and his minions.
It does not matter one bit your physical location or your heritage and ancestry.


----------



## jawja_peach (Mar 5, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Nope. As a father of daughters this would not be allowed in my family. This is in BB words immoral. This is wrong. No way to justify it. Sorry. There isn't one. This is not protecting our women.



*Well, you had to know Peach would have to put in her 2cents right???? 

I was a 'tomboy' right down to my shoes, never wore girly shoes, wanted high top basketball shoes. I wanted to play foot ball, and I almost joined that marines. I took shop class and I'm a certified Welder. Y'all I'm sure read this on Earls thread. Now, I had the hardest head in the world, and still to this day Pigpen watches what he says, if the first words are "You can do.....!!" Oboy, move over and I'll show you I can....But looking back now, being a grown woman with 2 boys, seeing how the male gender treat the female gender in high school it makes me ill to think what messages are being handed down. What these kids have been taught. The 'tomboy' has faded away to 'a Southern Lady' and I wonder if we are teaching our children to be Ladies and Gents, or are we saying there's no difference, just be you, put your self in a man's position, get treated like a man, then we scuff when we see Women wed'n Women and Men wed'n Men. There are no difference. This ALL falls back on their home life, as well as the parents home life. Being a Lady, I teach my boys to be Gents. Like Jerry Clower said some women don't need liberation. Do we scoff when a guy joins the cheering team?? Is he thought to be sissy and probably gay?? Your living in the south here, not liberal New York. 

And for me and my house..... I will teach my boys till they are adults to always treat a Lady like a Lady even if she asks you not to. I'm in total agreement that the young feller should tell the coach or who ever to please place him with someone else. To me that is noble and shows that he will always respect women. And Mom and Dad are raising this one and not the t.v. Please don't take offence to that as I do not know every one's home life, just those I've seen. WE NEED MORE OF THAT AND LESS...UM...ARE YOU MALE OR FEMALE???

OF COURSE THIS IS MY OPINION AND I DIDN'T READ PAST THE QUOTE AT THE TOP SO IF THIS IS OUTA ORDER THAT'S WHY...thanks for understanding my ADD and my weird ways of doing things.

Peach~*


----------



## gtparts (Mar 5, 2009)

My Daddy always told me, "Son, always assume a women is a lady until she proves otherwise........then run." Don't know how he came by that lil' bit o' wisdom, but I am sure glad he passed it on. Likewise, if you go dumpster-diving for female companionship, don't expect to smell good when you resurface. Guess that one cuts both ways....nice girls being infatuated with the "bad" boys and all.

Anyways.......
Can't say I would assume a female wrestler was a lady. 

Might have been my loss, but there were lots of fish in the ocean when I was young. With a limit of one, that choice was pretty important, not to be wasted on a sweaty wrestler.

Peace.


----------



## celticfisherman (Mar 5, 2009)

jawja_peach said:


> *Well, you had to know Peach would have to put in her 2cents right????
> 
> I was a 'tomboy' right down to my shoes, never wore girly shoes, wanted high top basketball shoes. I wanted to play foot ball, and I almost joined that marines. I took shop class and I'm a certified Welder. Y'all I'm sure read this on Earls thread. Now, I had the hardest head in the world, and still to this day Pigpen watches what he says, if the first words are "You can do.....!!" Oboy, move over and I'll show you I can....But looking back now, being a grown woman with 2 boys, seeing how the male gender treat the female gender in high school it makes me ill to think what messages are being handed down. What these kids have been taught. The 'tomboy' has faded away to 'a Southern Lady' and I wonder if we are teaching our children to be Ladies and Gents, or are we saying there's no difference, just be you, put your self in a man's position, get treated like a man, then we scuff when we see Women wed'n Women and Men wed'n Men. There are no difference. This ALL falls back on their home life, as well as the parents home life. Being a Lady, I teach my boys to be Gents. Like Jerry Clower said some women don't need liberation. Do we scoff when a guy joins the cheering team?? Is he thought to be sissy and probably gay?? Your living in the south here, not liberal New York.
> 
> ...



I think you did a pretty good job of making your point. You are doing what is right by raising young Gentlemen!

You do that and they can come calling around here and not get punted.


----------



## fivesolas (Mar 5, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> You mean "repatriated English"



Dagummit. I'm Ameerican. and that's that. 

Get some..


----------



## earl (Mar 5, 2009)

Sounds like ya'll are back on the second class thing again. Any time you tell some one else they can't do what you can do ,you are asserting dominance.


----------



## celticfisherman (Mar 5, 2009)

earl said:


> Sounds like ya'll are back on the second class thing again. Any time you tell some one else they can't do what you can do ,you are asserting dominance.



Don't play in the street!!!

Dominance or caring?


----------



## fishndinty (Mar 5, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Our purpose is to protect the dignity of our wives and daughters.
> 
> When that happens our civilization flourishes.
> 
> When it doesn't. We have abortion and rape on scales we cannot fathom. Like welllllllllllll now!



I agree with your statement.  However, long dresses and Mormon hair are not necessary to afford this protection.


----------



## celticfisherman (Mar 5, 2009)

fishndinty said:


> I agree with your statement.  However, long dresses and Mormon hair are not necessary to afford this protection.



What is? 

And quite frankly being a Presbyterian the Mormon hair thing is quite offensive. 

My wife and daughters don't have "mormon" hair. I lived in Utah for a while. Most mormons don't have what you mean.


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## earl (Mar 5, 2009)

Dominance is telling her no ,you can't. Caring is telling her you would rather she didn't with an explanation of why you feel that way.  Kind of like telling me not to play in the street or is it that you really care ? Why is the morman hair thing offensive ? Even I understood it to mean they aren't allowed to cut it.  If you aren't morman why do you care?  take it long dresses don't offend you.


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## celticfisherman (Mar 5, 2009)

earl said:


> Dominance is telling her no ,you can't. Caring is telling her you would rather she didn't with an explanation of why you feel that way.  Kind of like telling me not to play in the street or is it that you really care ? Why is the morman hair thing offensive ? Even I understood it to mean they aren't allowed to cut it.  If you aren't morman why do you care?  take it long dresses don't offend you.



#1- No you are using your imagination to come up with what dominance is vs caring. No specific criteria just what you feel.

#2- Mormons aren't christians. So by insinuating the connection it is offensive to me. IF you want to say amish or Mennonite then we can talk but at least get the faith's straight.


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## earl (Mar 5, 2009)

cf , I  imagine the spirit is upon you tonite. Not the holy one, the Irish one. Sleep it off and heres hoping you wake up more reasonable tomorrow.


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## celticfisherman (Mar 5, 2009)

earl said:


> cf , I  imagine the spirit is upon you tonite. Not the holy one, the Irish one. Sleep it off and heres hoping you wake up more reasonable tomorrow.



No. Not at all.

Just a little irritated with the stop and troll you have been doing on these threads.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 6, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Do you apply your interpretation of this to all things outside the physical realm also? Such as the ability to learn, teach, reason, make decisions, make money, be successful at business, be independent?


 

Nope not all of those...

DB BB


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## fivesolas (Mar 6, 2009)

Gonna make a thread from this post.


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## matthewsman (Mar 6, 2009)

*hahah whatever...*



WTM45 said:


> Wrestlers are the cream of the crop.  They go through intense tryouts, training regimens and dedication inquiry.



Believe that if you want to...Nobody ever "checked your oil"?

Just like any other sport you have dirty atheletes.Cheap shots, chopblocks,hard checks and so forth and so on...


If girls want to wrestle,they need to wrestle other girls...There is a reason sports are segregated by sex.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 6, 2009)

jawja_peach said:


> *well, you had to know peach would have to put in her 2cents right???? *
> 
> _*i was a 'tomboy' right down to my shoes, never wore girly shoes, wanted high top basketball shoes. I wanted to play foot ball, and i almost joined that marines. I took shop class and i'm a certified welder. Y'all i'm sure read this on earls thread. Now, i had the hardest head in the world, and still to this day pigpen watches what he says, if the first words are "you can do.....!!" oboy, move over and i'll show you i can....but looking back now, being a grown woman with 2 boys, seeing how the male gender treat the female gender in high school it makes me ill to think what messages are being handed down. What these kids have been taught. The 'tomboy' has faded away to 'a southern lady' and i wonder if we are teaching our children to be ladies and gents, or are we saying there's no difference, just be you, put your self in a man's position, get treated like a man, then we scuff when we see women wed'n women and men wed'n men. There are no difference. This all falls back on their home life, as well as the parents home life. Being a lady, i teach my boys to be gents. Like jerry clower said some women don't need liberation. Do we scoff when a guy joins the cheering team?? Is he thought to be sissy and probably gay?? Your living in the south here, not liberal new york. *_
> 
> ...


 

*amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## christianhunter (Mar 6, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> This is what happens when you get a bunch of Protestant Scots together  Thank GOD I'm Irish



Then this will explain a lot to all of you.I'm, Scott- Irish,Irish, creek Indian,and Cherokee.More than likely a little British thrown in there from the maternal sides on done the line.


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## celticfisherman (Mar 6, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> This is what happens when you get a bunch of Protestant Scots together  Thank GOD I'm Irish



Yep. we are a unique bunch. Scots-Irish and German Calvinist with a little Celtic Brit (Welsh) thrown in for good measure.


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## jawja_peach (Mar 7, 2009)

*Another Novel...Sorry!!*

*

I'm sorry, people can say what they want to about the sexes. How one is dominate over the other. So forth and so on. But to have been there.... being a welder in a metal fabrication plant where there was one other woman, I have seen it, felt it first hand. I was as good as any of those men building those prison cells, but did I make the same??? Nope. Never. I was always at least a dollar under what every other man there. I didn't deserve to be paid less, and in most cases I should have been paid more. But regardless, I will tell you why....because at this time people where still teaching their kids that there is a difference in a man/woman & boy/girl. Not saying one is lesser...

When I wrote my first comment on here I wondered afterward if I got my point across...?? So real quick I just want people to know what I meant. When we think of boys/girls sports we automatically know which one girls are accepted in, and the same with guys. This thread was based on a girl doing a sport that has mostly been male for years. Well, then we look at Cheerleaders. That's a sport for girls. Well, somewhere between the two we loose our perception on the whole issue. The issue being girls in sports that boys end up cop'n a feel (to just be blunt) weather they mean to or not. So, for this reason, girls should not wrestle. Well, hmm...now in Cheerleading there are guys on the squad. Yes, most are thought to be sissy or gay. But are they really?? Most ARE NOT!!! Do they grab the hinneys of these perfect lil ladies??? When they are lifting a girl up, can he not see under her skirt??? But because wrestling is a 'Boys' sport, and the girls are NOT believed to be Lesbians, there's an issue. So, where do we draw the line?? Now, like my last comment we need to turn back to the families of these boys/girls. Do you know what you'll find?? Some families are telling/teaching their children there is no difference between the boys/girls. Do what you want. Don't worry about others and how they perceive you. Carry that 'I don't care' attitude. (those three words together are considered profanity in my home!) I'm not saying that women are playing second fiddle to men. What I'm saying is there is a line, both ways. If you can not see it, that's your own stubborn fault. It is there. It's time we, the adults, sit down with our children and teach them that there is a line. Boys are boys, Girls are girls. If they were to be equal, in all aspects, then we'd all be one sex. Not two. God wouldn't have made Adam and Eve - but Adam and Steve. God made Eve the weaker of the two. But of course those who don't believe Gods word won't believe this. Another reason why the world is the way it is. God made us different from head to toe. 

So, I will close. I hate to run in and add more but I didn't feel I got what I wanted to say across. I was talking to my son about it last night. We rode up to Taco Bell to grab supper for everyone - I had 3 boys and Pigpen...TESTOSTERON CITY!! FRIDAY NIGHT WRESTLING!!! (i love it though..lol..fake or not...) My son, who's 11, told me that he would not fight a girl. Just out of respect. He did tell me that he wouldn't let a girl beat on him, trying to get him to fight...He would do all he could to keep from having a confurtation, but, if she put him in that position, he said he would treat her that way. I was proud to hear that. I only pray that there are more parents out there finally realizing with this world in the shape it's in, they haven't done the job before them nor did it right. Am I judging?? No, but check'n out the fruit... Am I perfect? Far from it.. Have I raised perfect children?? HECK NO!!! I SCREW UP ALL THE TIME!! But I do try to lead by example and I bring them up in the way the Bible tells me to, and I ask them, especially my oldest, to realize I'm just leaning myself. We learn together.

Peach~*


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## Lowjack (Mar 7, 2009)

jawja_peach said:


> *
> 
> I'm sorry, people can say what they want to about the sexes. How one is dominate over the other. So forth and so on. But to have been there.... being a welder in a metal fabrication plant where there was one other woman, I have seen it, felt it first hand. I was as good as any of those men building those prison cells, but did I make the same??? Nope. Never. I was always at least a dollar under what every other man there. I didn't deserve to be paid less, and in most cases I should have been paid more. But regardless, I will tell you why....because at this time people where still teaching their kids that there is a difference in a man/woman & boy/girl. Not saying one is lesser...
> 
> ...


You should have welded your bosses steel toe boots to the cells and say, see I can well just as good as a man ! LOL


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## earl (Mar 7, 2009)

Peach , I have to say , that post confused me. I agree with the equal pay issue. My niece has been a cheerleader forever. You are correct about the male cheerleaders . They aren't gay and they aren't dummies. I agree boys and girls are different. VIVA LE DIFEERANCE.  I assume that your deference to men only applies to home and church ? Not stirring ma'am , just trying to understand your post.


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## jawja_peach (Mar 7, 2009)

*How's this??*



earl said:


> Peach , I have to say , that post confused me. I agree with the equal pay issue. My niece has been a cheerleader forever. You are correct about the male cheerleaders . They aren't gay and they aren't dummies. I agree boys and girls are different. VIVA LE DIFEERANCE.  I assume that your deference to men only applies to home and church ? Not stirring ma'am , just trying to understand your post.



*Good after noon Earl... I'm sorry if I confused you are anyone else. To be honest, I have all these kids and when I got up to do for them, my comment was posted before I had a chance to proof it. I'm a writer, duah I'm sure you could tell, and I have so many thoughts in my mind, I want to express...so I jot them down, then tie the together. So hope you can understand that and forgive me, all y'all, if it is confusing....4 kids run'n around...11yr. 10yrs. 7yrs and 6yrs. 

OK, you confused me now...??? What did you mean about the difference only being at home and church?? What I meant was that parents/people are trying to make everyone and everything equal in ALL ways. When it's not. Where do I get this...everywhere. Take an afternoon and just go sit out side and look around. We can see it there, if blinders are left at home. God didn't make us equal. He made Eve from Adam. And Eve to be the weaker vessel. Now this is Bible and I'm sure you and others will not agree because of that. So again, in my opinion I feel the lines that are there have been put there for a reason. Most of them have been put on the 'women' because again, we are the weaker vessel. Those lines are there to protect us. Or most of them are. And again, when we start saying boys/girls/ are equal, we start tearing down those walls of protection. Even with I was working as a welder, there were still lose lines there. Things they wouldn't let me do, because they were scared I'd get hurt..

Did that explain it better??? If not, I give up! LOL!!!*


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## earl (Mar 7, 2009)

Thank you. My confusion is/was you are evidently as qualified if not more than some as a welder. IMHO that has nothing to do with be ''the weaker sex'' ,you simply are a better welder. Other than going against your biblical beliefs , is there anything that would keep you from having this same outlook in all of your life ?


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## earl (Mar 7, 2009)

I forgot to add. My kids are grown, up and out and they still keep it confusing around here LOL


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## jawja_peach (Mar 7, 2009)

*uhh...*

*Yep, I guess you might be right..lol....I'm sure to this day that I'd place in the top 10 welders. I have been welding for years. Use to mess around with my dad's tig when he wasn't looking..lol... I grew up at the race track and you know even at the races, there was still a 'line'. And you didn't cuss in front of a Lady either. No different if she beats your slow butt down the strip or has an all woman crew that are out crew'n your best buds. (lived it..)Setting those records that would and did stand for five years before being broke. But the line was there all the same. My dad, use to get on to me when I was younger because me and my sis would jump in @ the track and pull the motor outa the bike before he had a chance to help. He always told me NOT to be doing that, that my babies would come out naked, toothless and with no hair. UHH..lol.. there's that line again...

Now, tell me.. What did you mean about 

"Other than going against your biblical beliefs , is there anything that would keep you from having this same outlook in all of your life ? "*


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## earl (Mar 7, 2009)

It sounds to me like you take control of your life and can and do compete with the boys successfully . I just can't comprehend a woman letting a man be the strongest ,for lack of a better term , just because it says so in the bible. I hope that came out right and did not offend you.


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## jawja_peach (Mar 7, 2009)

earl said:


> It sounds to me like you take control of your life and can and do compete with the boys successfully . I just can't comprehend a woman letting a man be the strongest ,for lack of a better term , just because it says so in the bible. I hope that came out right and did not offend you.



*LOL....No you didn't offend me. I'm the same way, as I can honestly mean something one way and it comes out another. 

To tell you the honest truth...and this is just me, it's not all because of the Bible and what it says. I mean, yes, it says that the woman is the weaker, and not to be the 'head' of the marriage/family. But really, it's just the way it's suppose to be. Do I NEED Pigpen to survive, raise my kids and all?? NO. I don't. My Daddy helped make it to where I'm self-serve. I can cut and split firewood, change the oil in my car, and cook a great country supper, cracklin Cornbread and all. Do I cut and split firewood...NO, change my oil in my car, NO, do I cook Yup, if I want and feel like it. I'm not in good health Earl, and Pigpen is a wonderful husband. He has come in from a 12hr. day at the sawmill, running the board edger (harder than just sawing)all day, come in take a shower, go to the grocery store. Come home, cook supper, bring me supper in bed, clean up, make sure the kids are done with their homework, put them to bed, and never once expect me to get outa bed. And then come to bed and rub my back or what ever to try and relieve my pain. So see, my marriage is awesome. I want to do for him and my kids because he does for me and the kids. He is the head of the house and deserves this 'title' because he is the best one for the job. In all successful marriages, 90% are this way because the man is the head. But don't get me wrong...if the man is being bossy, not following the Book and what it says and how it says a husband should be, then I see nothing wrong with the woman doing what she needs to do and has to do. I have friends that haven't got a marriage like mine. And they fight ALL THE TIME. A power thing. So...hope that answers your question...*


P.S. Hey, just thought you'd like to see and know...that's my Papa in my Avatar. That's the motorcycle my mother, sister and I crewed, and daddy piloted. Top Speed 235mph @ 6.06 et (seconds) in a 1/4 mile from a standing start. It took his competition 5 yrs. to break his records after his death. (that's how far advanced we were...)


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## earl (Mar 7, 2009)

I would have loved to been you . That is truly an awsome man to emulate . Ihope your boys are able to enjoy their heritage. As far as our other discussion  I agree to disagree. Hope that is acceptable as thats probly the best I can do.


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## jawja_peach (Mar 8, 2009)

earl said:


> I would have loved to been you . That is truly an awsome man to emulate . I hope your boys are able to enjoy their heritage. As far as our other discussion  I agree to disagree. Hope that is acceptable as thats probly the best I can do.



  I'll take that plea myself too (to agree to disagree).. Yes, my boys are proud of their Papaw, but sadly never got to meet them. So I hold on to God's promises and know they will meet him then. Heritage is something we hold very dear, up to PigPens GGrandfathers who fought in the Civil War. They also see my dad's "I love me" room. All pics, trophies, magazines, plaques. Anyway....Have an awesome night. Don't forget to change your clocks..so your not to be get'n at church  an hour late...lol 

Peach~


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