# Some things just dont add up......



## 1eyefishing (Mar 8, 2022)

"Created in his image."- In his great omnipotence,  did he miss the mark a bit?

"All knowing."-  which means he knows even the future and which choices you will make. Yet you still have the free will to make a decision he knows you will not make?

"All powerful"- Why did he create us to cast us out of Eden, analogous to creating sinners and casting them to hades.

How can a man claim to know what can't be known,  or become known only through death or admittance to 'Heaven'?

I believe in the possibility (even a probability) of a great creator, but can't give him all the attributes given by those who claim to know what can't be known. We may be his most prideful project, or a failed experiment from distant history discarded to the gutter.

I hold a distinction between faith and knowledge.
How would we KNOW?
What do we KNOW?

I am a Seeker of my own revelation, knowledge and faith.


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## 660griz (Mar 9, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> "Created in his image."- In his great omnipotence,  did he miss the mark a bit?



Well, yea! By a huge 'bit'. Why did he create his 'special' children that have to obey all the physical laws like every thing else? Why do we get hungry, cold, hot, frisky? Can you imagine what the world would be like if we didn't need to use resources to cloth, house, or feed ourselves? Did God have to do any of that stuff? If he didn't have to do anything like that, what made him think to create us, and most of the rest of life, with the need to eat and poop? If God ate, what did he eat? Did God get cold?

He even made a mistake, flooded the world for a do-over and did the same thing again. You know the definition of crazy...right?


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## WaltL1 (Mar 9, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> View attachment 1139950
> 
> "Created in his image."- In his great omnipotence,  did he miss the mark a bit?
> 
> ...





> I hold a distinction between faith and knowledge.


The two quite often get melded into one. Sure causes lots of division amongst folks.


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## 660griz (Mar 9, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> I hold a distinction between faith and knowledge.



It seems religion has created a great divide between faith and knowledge where there really shouldn't be. 
Faith 'should' be based on knowledge. For me to have complete faith in someone or something, I am gonna need to know a little something. 'Blind' faith, aint my thing.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 10, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> View attachment 1139950
> "Created in his image."- In his great omnipotence,  did he miss the mark a bit?
> 
> "All knowing."-  which means he knows even the future and which choices you will make. Yet you still have the free will to make a decision he knows you will not make?
> ...





> I believe in the possibility (even a probability) of a great creator, but can't give him all the attributes given by those who claim to know what can't be known.


Now to me, that ^ seems reasonable.
As opposed to the often heard "men cant possibly understand God" and then immediately being told about what God wants, thinks, desires, had for breakfast etc etc.


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## Spotlite (Mar 11, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> View attachment 1139950
> 
> "Created in his image."- In his great omnipotence,  did he miss the mark a bit?
> 
> ...





> I believe in the possibility (even a probability) of a great creator, but can't give him all the attributes given by those who claim to know what can't be known. We may be his most prideful project, or a failed experiment from distant history discarded to the gutter.


A lot of folks will find out that many attributes, good or bad, given to Him - they were wrong.

For the rest - He didn`t create us just to kick us out of the Garden, we can make choices and the many individual attributes folks have with "their thoughts" is a good example of that. Some of those that claim we have no choice don`t realize that by saying that they are saying God had to have Adam and Eve for the Garden plan instead two any body people.


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## 1eyefishing (Mar 11, 2022)

I claim we have choice.
 Others claim that God knows what choice we will make. To me, this excludes our choice to make the choice other than the one God knows we will make. Hence no free will.
 I believe in free will. Did God know the choices Adam and Eve would make? I don't believe so.
 IF he did, why would he create them just to throw them out of the garden?  Why would he create unpure souls just to cast them to Hades? I don't think he does.
 If he was All-powerful and omnipotent, he wouldn't. So I don't believe he is.
 This mess is not under his control.


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## bullethead (Mar 11, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> A lot of folks will find out that many attributes, good or bad, given to Him - they were wrong.
> 
> For the rest - He didn`t create us just to kick us out of the Garden, we can make choices and the many individual attributes folks have with "their thoughts" is a good example of that. Some of those that claim we have no choice don`t realize that by saying that they are saying God had to have Adam and Eve for the Garden plan instead two any body people.


What were gods thoughts when he was creating humans? What was he thinking an hour before that?

Was god capable of knowing how the Adam and Eve experiment was going to pan out?


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## bullethead (Mar 11, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> I claim we have choice.
> Others claim that God knows what choice we will make. To me, this excludes our choice to make the choice other than the one God knows we will make. Hence no free will.
> I believe in free will. Did God know the choices Adam and Eve would make? I don't believe so.
> IF he did, why would he create them just to throw them out of the garden?  Why would he create unpure souls just to cast them to Hades? I don't think he does.
> ...


So if god didn't know the choices Adam and Eve would make then your beliefs are that god is not Omniscient.  Is that accurate?


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## 1eyefishing (Mar 11, 2022)

bullethead said:


> So if god didn't know the choices Adam and Eve would make then your beliefs are that god is not Omniscient.  Is that accurate?


Excactly.

[I believe in the possibility (even a probability) of a great creator, but can't give him all the attributes given by those who claim to know what can't be known. We may be his most prideful project, or a failed experiment from distant history discarded to the gutter.]

 If he is omniscient, then he created this mess on purpose.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 11, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> Excactly.
> 
> [I believe in the possibility (even a probability) of a great creator, but can't give him all the attributes given by those who claim to know what can't be known. We may be his most prideful project, or a failed experiment from distant history discarded to the gutter.]
> 
> If he is omniscient, then he created this mess on purpose.





> If he is omniscient, then he created this mess on purpose.


Sure makes it hard to swallow the "God loves all his creation" claim we often hear


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## CarolinaDawg (Mar 11, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> View attachment 1139950
> 
> "Created in his image."- In his great omnipotence,  did he miss the mark a bit?
> 
> ...


It’s always amusing to see people who are turning their nose up at the faith of Christianity based on their own faith that God doesn’t exist or that Christ wasn’t truly God incarnate.  This is a binary deal; you either believe in Jesus Christ or you believe the alternative, but we all have faith.


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## 1eyefishing (Mar 11, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> It’s always amusing to see people who are turning their nose up at the faith of Christianity based on their own faith that God doesn’t exist or that Christ wasn’t truly God incarnate.  This is a binary deal; you either believe in Jesus Christ or you believe the alternative, but we all have faith.


 Do you think someone in here has turned their nose up at the Christian faith?
 I'm not sure what to make out of the 2nd sentence but I think that is YOUR  belief, presented as fact.


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## Spotlite (Mar 11, 2022)

bullethead said:


> What were gods thoughts when he was creating humans? What was he thinking an hour before that?
> 
> Was god capable of knowing how the Adam and Eve experiment was going to pan out?


I don’t know His thoughts. I can only speculate. I imagine he wanted to “communicate” and wanted a creation that would love Him and He them.

Yes I think God was very capable of knowing and did know how things would turn out but I think He also knew there’d still be a people come out of that that’ll love Him and He them. I believe He knows the end result if every choice we might make, if you do that, this happens, if you do this, that happens. Some see that as a back up plan, I see it as just knowing everything about everything no matter what we choose.

I raise rabbits, chickens, hogs, and beef and I know there’ll be stupid ones that definitely hitting the frying pan but I also know there’ll be those good ones come out that I can keep as breeders. That’s my own simple way of trying to comprehend what a Deity might be thinking.


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## 1eyefishing (Mar 11, 2022)

[I raise rabbits, chickens, hogs, and beef and I know there’ll be stupid ones that definitely hitting the frying pan but I also know there’ll be those I just have to keep as breeders. That’s my own simple way of trying to comprehend what a Deity might be thinking.]
 Analogous, but exponentially short of knowing what decisions each will make before they make it. And being able to create them as you wish..


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## 660griz (Mar 11, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Sure makes it hard to swallow the "God loves all his creation" claim we often hear



If you love something,
Set it free.
If it comes back to you,
It was yours.
Else, hunt it down and kill it. 
                                           ----Love, God


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## NCHillbilly (Mar 11, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> I claim we have choice.
> Others claim that God knows what choice we will make. To me, this excludes our choice to make the choice other than the one God knows we will make. Hence no free will.
> I believe in free will. Did God know the choices Adam and Eve would make? I don't believe so.
> IF he did, why would he create them just to throw them out of the garden?  Why would he create unpure souls just to cast them to Hades? I don't think he does.
> ...


Sometime when you're up to it, go do some research on the beliefs of Gnosticism. One of their deals in a nutshell is that the deity we know as God is not the true God, but a flawed deity who was created by mistake, banished, and then created our universe.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 11, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Sure makes it hard to swallow the "God loves all his creation" claim we often hear



a lot of Christians claim that god will love you even as he casts you into unspeakable torture for all eternity. It's just that god hates sin so much that sending sinners into a pit of fire/torture is the only fair thing to do....his hands are tied! 

His ways are not our ways, so we can't put ourselves in his shoes just because most of us humans would never inflict eternal torture to those we hate, let alone love. 

Bottom line IMHO god is difficult to love, but you just have to force yourself to love him, or you suffer eternal torture.


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## NCHillbilly (Mar 11, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> a lot of Christians claim that god will love you even as he casts you into unspeakable torture for all eternity. It's just that god hates sin so much that sending sinners into a pit of fire/torture is the only fair thing to do....his hands are tied!
> 
> His ways are not our ways, so we can't put ourselves in his shoes just because most of us humans would never inflict eternal torture to those we hate, let alone love.
> 
> Bottom line IMHO god is difficult to love, but you just have to force yourself to love him, or you suffer eternal torture.


Couldn't this have been avoided just by designing folks not to be sinful to begin with while you had them there on the drawing board?


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## 1eyefishing (Mar 11, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Sometime when you're up to it, go do some research on the beliefs of Gnosticism. One of their deals in a nutshell is that the deity we know as God is not the true God, but a flawed deity who was created by mistake, banished, and then created our universe.




Interesting...

[...emphasised personal spiritual knowledge (_gnosis_) above the orthodox teachings, traditions, and authority of religious institutions]
But "very much aligned with Christian teachings"...

Rings a bell.


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## 1eyefishing (Mar 11, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Couldn't this have been avoided just by designing folks not to be sinful to begin with while you had them there on the drawing board?


 Why do we have to assign that he could design us as he wished,  as opposed to us just being something that popped up.
  Hard to believe he is omnipotent, and All-powerful, and all-knowing, and designed souls he believes are faulty and sinful.
 If he designed us just to see how we turned out, then he was not omnipotent and all powerful because he didn't know which decisions we would make.
Among other things  It is the attributes that a man will heap upon God that I dont understand.


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## Spotlite (Mar 11, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> [I raise rabbits, chickens, hogs, and beef and I know there’ll be stupid ones that definitely hitting the frying pan but I also know there’ll be those I just have to keep as breeders. That’s my own simple way of trying to comprehend what a Deity might be thinking.]
> Analogous, but exponentially short of knowing what decisions each will make before they make it. And being able to create them as you wish..





> That’s my own simple way of trying to comprehend what a Deity might be thinking.




Nah. But I know what you’re saying, key words in my post are “my own simple”, “trying” and “might be”.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 11, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> Why do we have to assign that he could design us as he wished,  as opposed to us just being something that popped up.
> Hard to believe he is omnipotent, and All-powerful, and all-knowing, and designed souls he believes are faulty and sinful.
> If he designed us just to see how we turned out, then he was not omnipotent and all powerful because he didn't know which decisions we would make.
> Among other things  It is the attributes that a man will heap upon God that I dont understand.


To me, the attributes that have been given to God are evidence of being thought up by men. What would men think up to describe a "super being"?
Knows everything
Can do anything
Made everything
Sees everything
Leaps tall buildings in a single bound etc etc.
All things that would qualify as "super" from man's point of view.

Could there be a "God?/Creator"? Yep, could be.
But I dont believe man would have a clue what that God/Creator would actually be like.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 11, 2022)

660griz said:


> If you love something,
> Set it free.
> If it comes back to you,
> It was yours.
> ...


As funny as that sounds, its actually a pretty accurate description of the story.


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## Spotlite (Mar 11, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Sure makes it hard to swallow the "God loves all his creation" claim we often hear


Hmmm. He loves you too Walt just like He loves me. I’m going to need an electric blanket, you’re going to need a fan and water? But I guess if I get it wrong I’m bringing marsh mellows to the burn barrel for us if that’s our outcome. If I’m wrong I sure hope you’re right ?


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## WaltL1 (Mar 11, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Hmmm. He loves you too Walt just like He loves me. I’m going to need an electric blanket, you’re going to need a fan and water? But I guess if I get it wrong I’m bringing marsh mellows to the burn barrel for us if that’s our outcome. If I’m wrong I sure hope you’re right ?


I dont know, Ive been told more than once that I'm pretty hard to love 
But I guess its possible.
And I like marsh mellows.


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## 660griz (Mar 11, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> It’s always amusing to see people who are turning their nose up at the faith of Christianity based on their own faith that God doesn’t exist or that Christ wasn’t truly God incarnate.  This is a binary deal; you either believe in Jesus Christ or you believe the alternative, but we all have faith.


Since there are hundreds or thousands of gods, not really binary. It is true we all have faith. The difference is, some have faith based on research, logic, critical thinking, good ol common sense and some have faith cause they were born into the cult and drank the cool-aid. Mostly too scared to think of the alternative cause what if there is a he!!? Like the saying goes, we are all atheist. I just don't believe in one more god than you.


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## buckpasser (Mar 11, 2022)

If you had the ability to breath life into clay beings, what good would they be to create drones, lacking the ability to act of their own will?  Would worship or praise have any value from such a mindless creation?  That’s as far as I can get in explaining how I see free will and the course that man ultimately took. 

Also, I’m not downing anyone or arguing, but why bring up such points if you just truly don’t believe in Christianity or any other organized religion’s way of thinking. If I was not a believer, I’d like to think I’d just let it go, secure in my decision, not go around cheerleading to children that Santa is a myth. Constant review of disbelief often signals a deep rooted, yet often times denied sense of discontentment about where they stand with God.  Maybe that applies to no one here, but I suspect it does.


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## 1eyefishing (Mar 11, 2022)

Very good point in the 1st paragraph, BP.
 As to the 2nd paragraph, why?  Is answered by the existence of this sub form to talk about such topics, and by the last sentence in the OP.


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## 660griz (Mar 11, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> If you had the ability to breath life into clay beings, what good would they be to create drones, lacking the ability to act of their own will?  Would worship or praise have any value from such a mindless creation?


 Why would a creator demand worship and praise and preach modesty and humbleness at the same time?


> If I was not a believer, I’d like to think I’d just let it go, secure in my decision, not go around cheerleading to children that Santa is a myth. Constant review of disbelief often signals a deep rooted, yet often times denied sense of discontentment about where they stand with God.  Maybe that applies to no one here, but I suspect it does.


Before I comment, where did this come from? Who is cheerleading to children? 
Constant review of disbelief? You know what forum this is right?  I am not standing on a street corner preaching to kids. This forum is just about the ONLY place my views on religion are brought up. Most of my family don't know and they are all religious. So, I do let it go. I don't care if they pray in schools, before a football game, before getting into an Uber, before you come to my house...I don't care. Worship all you want. Just don't TELL me I have to. And if most religious folks can't admit that the god they worship is based mostly on the family they were born into, and the geography of their birth, than just knowing the one true god, then there is no help for you. Of course there are exceptions. A poor kid born in the deep south, parents go to the snake handling church but, he decides to check out some other religions that are a little less hazardous. Guess I lied about the before I comment...


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## ambush80 (Mar 11, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> If you had the ability to breath life into clay beings, what good would they be to create drones, lacking the ability to act of their own will?  Would worship or praise have any value from such a mindless creation?  That’s as far as I can get in explaining how I see free will and the course that man ultimately took.
> 
> Also, I’m not downing anyone or arguing, but why bring up such points if you just truly don’t believe in Christianity or any other organized religion’s way of thinking. If I was not a believer, I’d like to think I’d just let it go, secure in my decision, not go around cheerleading to children that Santa is a myth. Constant review of disbelief often signals a deep rooted, yet often times denied sense of discontentment about where they stand with God.  Maybe that applies to no one here, but I suspect it does.



Can you sin in Heaven?


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## WaltL1 (Mar 11, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> If you had the ability to breath life into clay beings, what good would they be to create drones, lacking the ability to act of their own will?  Would worship or praise have any value from such a mindless creation?  That’s as far as I can get in explaining how I see free will and the course that man ultimately took.
> 
> Also, I’m not downing anyone or arguing, but why bring up such points if you just truly don’t believe in Christianity or any other organized religion’s way of thinking. If I was not a believer, I’d like to think I’d just let it go, secure in my decision, not go around cheerleading to children that Santa is a myth. Constant review of disbelief often signals a deep rooted, yet often times denied sense of discontentment about where they stand with God.  Maybe that applies to no one here, but I suspect it does.





> Would worship or praise have any value from such a mindless creation?


About the same value as worship and praise purchased with fear and/or promises of Heaven, seeing passed away loved ones, eternal life etc? 


> Constant review of disbelief often signals a deep rooted, yet often times denied sense of discontentment about where they stand with God.


If a person doesnt believe a God exists would they be concerned about where they stand with the God they dont believe exists?


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## buckpasser (Mar 11, 2022)

660griz said:


> Why would a creator demand worship and praise and preach modesty and humbleness at the same time?
> 
> Before I comment, where did this come from? Who is cheerleading to children?
> Constant review of disbelief? You know what forum this is right?  I am not standing on a street corner preaching to kids. This forum is just about the ONLY place my views on religion are brought up. Most of my family don't know and they are all religious. So, I do let it go. I don't care if they pray in schools, before a football game, before getting into an Uber, before you come to my house...I don't care. Worship all you want. Just don't TELL me I have to. And if most religious folks can't admit that the god they worship is based mostly on the family they were born into, and the geography of their birth, than just knowing the one true god, then there is no help for you. Of course there are exceptions. A poor kid born in the deep south, parents go to the snake handling church but, he decides to check out some other religions that are a little less hazardous. Guess I lied about the before I comment...



I believe our creator appreciates and approves of praise, but it’s pretty obvious that He doesn’t demand it, therefore improving the value of completely voluntary said worship. 

The children thing was just a parallel. It’s pretty apparent that Santa isn’t real. It’s also not considered normal behavior to go around disparaging him to those who still believe or even to fellow nonbelievers. My point is, why isn’t that the case with God?  In this nation, you aren’t forced to live by a religious standard, so to me it would be like people meeting to discuss and constantly visiting how badly they hate college basketball. People generally focus on things they believe, love, or are excited about. Atheism seems to be a rare exception. Why can’t those who choose that route just let it go?  That’s a real question, not rhetoric.  As for your other points, I think we pretty much agree, and yes, I realize I’m on your turf here. If I’m not welcomed, I can leave. I just wanted to respectfully chat with you all, and share my perspective.


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## buckpasser (Mar 11, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Can you sin in Heaven?



I’ll get back with you postmortem.  For all I know there may not be parameters for even the possibility of sin. There may well not be time, or space, or both. I’m not one to speculate on it.


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## buckpasser (Mar 11, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> About the same value as worship and praise purchased with fear and/or promises of Heaven, seeing passed away loved ones, eternal life etc?
> 
> If a person doesnt believe a God exists would they be concerned about where they stand with the God they dont believe exists?



Praise doesn’t have to be “purchased” through your listed means. 

Your second question makes my point. Why would someone feel compelled to spend time reviewing or seeking approval with their peers (here) on a topic that’s so irrelevant?


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## Spotlite (Mar 11, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Praise doesn’t have to be “purchased” through your listed means.
> 
> Your second question makes my point. Why would someone feel compelled to spend time reviewing or seeking approval with their peers (here) on a topic that’s so irrelevant?


Yea I’ve  never had one debate with Bigfoot believing folks. Just sort of ruled it out and moved on. I’ve never debated any Allah stories either.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 11, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Praise doesn’t have to be “purchased” through your listed means.
> 
> Your second question makes my point. Why would someone feel compelled to spend time reviewing or seeking approval with their peers (here) on a topic that’s so irrelevant?


I didnt say it HAD to be the only reasons(s) all Christians believe. But I think it would be silly to pretend that fear of he11 and/or the rewards of Heaven doesnt play a role. If they didnt it wouldnt be a part of the story.


> Why would someone feel compelled to spend time reviewing or seeking approval with their peers (here) on a topic that’s so irrelevant?


Irrelevant?
Someone doesnt have to believe to understand the role religion has played throughout mans history right up until this very moment.
I think you have a bit of a misguided understanding of whats going on here in this forum. Maybe you should hang around and participate a bit more.


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## buckpasser (Mar 11, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> I didnt say it HAD to be the only reasons(s) all Christians believe. But I think it would be silly to pretend that fear of he11 and/or the rewards of Heaven doesnt play a role. If they didnt it wouldnt be a part of the story.
> 
> Irrelevant?
> Someone doesnt have to believe to understand the role religion has played throughout mans history right up until this very moment.
> I think you have a bit of a misguided understanding of whats going on here in this forum. Maybe you should hang around and participate a bit more.



Maybe I should, and maybe I will.  I’m sure fear does play a part.  It would seem much different than every other aspect of life if there weren’t positive and negative consequences to choices and actions, right?

What would you say is the primary purpose of this forum?  I wasn’t saying that the topic at hand is irrelevant, just that it should be in the minds of most posters here, if they are, deep down what they proclaim to be. I actually searched for anti-Sasquatch groups. There may be one somewhere, but I couldn’t find it. My point is, this topic, the existence or denial of God or a creator(s), surely stays fresh compared to other things that people choose to avoid or not believe in. Why do you suppose that is?  Seems curious.


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## CarolinaDawg (Mar 11, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Can you sin in Heaven?


Satan did, and a third of the angles followed. Because both heaven and earth have been affected by sin, Jesus will remake both after the final judgment.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 11, 2022)

"Why would a creator demand worship and praise and preach modesty and humbleness at the same time?"

It's the "do as I say, not as I do" approach. God floods the entire world but wants you to turn the other cheek when you feel wronged. You should display mercy whenever possible, but in the OT god encouraged his people to kill the children (dash them on the rocks) and rape/capture the women of their enemies during warfare. 

I guess that falls under the "god works in mysterious ways" loophole.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 11, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Maybe I should, and maybe I will.  I’m sure fear does play a part.  It would seem much different than every other aspect of life if there weren’t positive and negative consequences to choices and actions, right?
> 
> What would you say is the primary purpose of this forum?  I wasn’t saying that the topic at hand is irrelevant, just that it should be in the minds of most posters here, if they are, deep down what they proclaim to be. I actually searched for anti-Sasquatch groups. There may be one somewhere, but I couldn’t find it. My point is, this topic, the existence or denial of God or a creator(s), surely stays fresh compared to other things that people choose to avoid or not believe in. Why do you suppose that is?  Seems curious.





> Maybe I should, and maybe I will.


Hope you do 


> What would you say is the primary purpose of this forum?


Debate/discussion concerning religious beliefs/non beliefs. Because of where we are that most often means Christian beliefs vs. non belief. But all forms of belief/non belief are welcome.
For most us there is also the desire to better understand what people believe or dont believe and why.
Sometimes it gets messy and appears combative and adversarial. However we stop short of personal attacks and a Moderator hasnt had to intervene in years. Beneath the debate and disagreements many us develop a respect for the other. We are all also hunters, fisherman, outdoorsman and discuss all those. Some of us have even got together and gone hunting and fishing together.


> My point is, this topic, the existence or denial of God or a creator(s), surely stays fresh compared to other things that people choose to avoid or not believe in. Why do you suppose that is?  Seems curious.


First, I think all who participate here put the "God subject" leaps and bounds above the the typical " I dont believe in Sasquatch" type thing.
Secondly, I think the fact that most nonbelievers in here were once believers for most of their lives. So its a far more "personal" subject than Sasquatch or Ford vs. Chevy.
I will say that the conversation goes south pretty quick when we are confronted with a believer whose idea of debate/discussion is to repeatedly post scripture after scripture and makes no attempt to actually debate or discuss.


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## ambush80 (Mar 11, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> Satan did, and a third of the angles followed. Because both heaven and earth have been affected by sin, Jesus will remake both after the final judgment.



How about regular souls/people?  How did you arrive at your beliefs about this subject?

I found this:

https://www.gotquestions.org/heaven-sin.html

Watcha think?


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## Spotlite (Mar 11, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Hope you do
> 
> Debate/discussion concerning religious beliefs/non beliefs. Because of where we are that most often means Christian beliefs vs. non belief. But all forms of belief/non belief are welcome.
> For most us there is also the desire to better understand what people believe or dont believe and why.
> ...





> Debate/discussion concerning religious beliefs/non beliefs. Because of where we are that most often means Christian beliefs vs. non belief. But all forms of belief/non belief are welcome.
> For most us there is also the desire to better understand what people believe or dont believe and why


For me I’m speaking in general terms; I know on this forum why we debate but outside of this forum the norm is to deny God, not Allah. So it seems across the board that it’s only God and it does make believers wonder if the non believer really took it one God further. 

But outside of that yea I’d hunt fish and camp with anyone here and never bring up anything religious while doing it.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 11, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> For me I’m speaking in general terms; I know on this forum why we debate but outside of this forum the norm is to deny God, not Allah. So it seems across the board that it’s only God and it does make believers wonder if the non believer really took it one God further.
> 
> But outside of that yea I’d hunt fish and camp with anyone here and never bring up anything religious while doing it.


I cant really speak to the God/Allah thing. I put ALL (G)gods in the same boat so to speak. I just dont see the legitimate evidence that one or any of them exist.
Oh and I agree about the hunt, fish, camp thing. At least concerning the "regulars" here. I gotta be honest, there has been a few believers and non believers I have zero desire to spend time with


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 11, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> I cant really speak to the God/Allah thing. I put ALL (G)gods in the same boat so to speak. I just dont see the legitimate evidence that one or any of them exist.
> Oh and I agree about the hunt, fish, camp thing. At least concerning the "regulars" here. I gotta be honest, there has been a few believers and non believers I have zero desire to spend time with


Ditto ?


----------



## earlthegoat2 (Mar 11, 2022)

I have a saying that I came up with in my darkest hour:  I don’t believe in God, I just believe in me. 

The truth is that I don’t fully want to believe it. I was raised to be religious.  I went to parochial school.  I know the Bible and God and Jesus. 

To pull myself out of that dark place, I did the work, I put my nose to the grindstone, I sacrificed.  I never felt God help me.  I created a vision for myself and I figured out a way to get there.  It wasn’t faith. It was cold logic and pragmatism.

Some folks say that is proof God exists and was helping me through it all.  I say I did it on my own.

For the same reasons I have lost faith, other folks say it should have reinforced my faith.

How can you have faith in anything that opposes itself for all the same reasons?  I am not an Atheist, yet. Probably agnostic. I think about God everyday as do most folks who were raised religious. Im still trying to figure it all out.

I find it highly convenient though that the more we as a society figure out pretty concrete ways to disprove the existence of a higher power, the more we keep being told we have to have faith


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 11, 2022)

@earlthegoat2 who is telling you that?  From another perspective, I sense there is much less human force or influence pushing the need for faith over the course of my lifetime. At the same time, I see the world as a generally darker, dumber, sadder place. I can’t help but feel those converse graphs are related.  I know there are other factors (ie human population growth), but it’s strange for me to read something like your post and have such a different sense of the world that we both live in. 

By the way, I realize science “proves” God isn’t real, couldn’t be real, etc., but keep in mind these folks are from the same school of thought that can hardly predict if it will rain tomorrow, yet announce with certainty exactly how much hotter the Earth will be in 2050 due to greenhouse gases…they “discover” new species of dinosaurs by finding a piece of a leg bone and building an elaborate depiction around it, complete with all the spicy adaptations plaster can fabricate. They constantly amend the outdated ridiculous theories they all once held as probable truth when they are firmly debunked. In summary, largely they are liars, or fools, or both.


----------



## ky55 (Mar 12, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> @earlthegoat2 who is telling you that?  From another perspective, I sense there is much less human force or influence pushing the need for faith over the course of my lifetime. At the same time, I see the world as a generally darker, dumber, sadder place. I can’t help but feel those converse graphs are related.  I know there are other factors (ie human population growth), but it’s strange for me to read something like your post and have such a different sense of the world that we both live in.
> 
> By the way, I realize science “proves” God isn’t real, couldn’t be real, etc., but keep in mind these folks are from the same school of thought that can hardly predict if it will rain tomorrow, yet announce with certainty exactly how much hotter the Earth will be in 2050 due to greenhouse gases…they “discover” new species of dinosaurs by finding a piece of a leg bone and building an elaborate depiction around it, complete with all the spicy adaptations plaster can fabricate. They constantly amend the outdated ridiculous theories they all once held as probable truth when they are firmly debunked. In summary, largely they are liars, or fools, or both.



Do you live in a mud hut?


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 12, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> @earlthegoat2 who is telling you that?  From another perspective, I sense there is much less human force or influence pushing the need for faith over the course of my lifetime. At the same time, I see the world as a generally darker, dumber, sadder place. I can’t help but feel those converse graphs are related.  I know there are other factors (ie human population growth), but it’s strange for me to read something like your post and have such a different sense of the world that we both live in.
> 
> By the way, I realize science “proves” God isn’t real, couldn’t be real, etc., but keep in mind these folks are from the same school of thought that can hardly predict if it will rain tomorrow, yet announce with certainty exactly how much hotter the Earth will be in 2050 due to greenhouse gases…they “discover” new species of dinosaurs by finding a piece of a leg bone and building an elaborate depiction around it, complete with all the spicy adaptations plaster can fabricate. They constantly amend the outdated ridiculous theories they all once held as probable truth when they are firmly debunked. In summary, largely they are liars, or fools, or both.





> By the way, I realize science “proves” God isn’t real


I dont think thats ^ accurate. I dont think science can prove God_ isnt_ real any more than a Christian can prove God_ is_ real. Science just goes where the evidence points. It cant point to the Christian God until the Christian God has been proven to actually exist. Thats why you have to have faith. Even the Bible tells you that.
And dont forget there have been thousands of gods throughout mans history.


> They constantly amend the outdated ridiculous theories they all once held as probable truth when they are firmly debunked.


And guess who debunked the science? Yep, science. We as humans only know what we know. When we learn/know more we go back and throw out and update what we used to know. Thats a good thing.
Can you say the same about religion/Christianity? Talking donkeys? Staffs into snakes? Humans into pillars of salt? Explained away by being "miracles".
Science doesnt have the luxury of depending on "miracles".
Not understanding what science IS and ISNT causes alot of misconceptions.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 12, 2022)

ky55 said:


> Do you live in a mud hut?


Its easy to slam science as you are sitting comfortably in your heat/ac, typing on your computer to folks from all over, sipping on a cold drink or cup of hot coffee......


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## ky55 (Mar 12, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Its easy to slam science as you are sitting comfortably in your heat/ac, typing on your computer to folks from all over, sipping on a cold drink or cup of hot coffee......



Yep, that was my point.
A person would have to live in a mud hut totally removed from civilization all of their life to deny benefiting from science.


The folks who slam science will still show up at the emergency room when they have chest pain, and they’ll expect the newest technology and treatment to increase their chances of survival.


----------



## Baroque Brass (Mar 12, 2022)

ky55 said:


> Yep, that was my point.
> A person would have to live in a mud hut totally removed from civilization all of their life to deny benefiting from science.
> 
> 
> The folks who slam science will still show up at the emergency room when they have chest pain, and they’ll expect the newest technology and treatment to increase their chances of survival.


Except for the ones that believe in the healing power of prayer over modern medicine.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 12, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Maybe I should, and maybe I will.  I’m sure fear does play a part.  It would seem much different than every other aspect of life if there weren’t positive and negative consequences to choices and actions, right?
> 
> What would you say is the primary purpose of this forum?  I wasn’t saying that the topic at hand is irrelevant, just that it should be in the minds of most posters here, if they are, deep down what they proclaim to be. I actually searched for anti-Sasquatch groups. There may be one somewhere, but I couldn’t find it. My point is, this topic, the existence or denial of God or a creator(s), surely stays fresh compared to other things that people choose to avoid or not believe in. Why do you suppose that is?  Seems curious.


I have never had sasquatch believers actively and fervently try to force me to believe in sasquatch and come to their sasquatch meetings, knock on my door and offer me sasquatch pamphlets, or ostracize me from their friendship and the community and talk about me behind my back and consider me inferior and dam ned because I don't have their same beliefs or attend their meetings where they talk about sasquatch. I can't say the same about some other groups.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 12, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> For me I’m speaking in general terms; I know on this forum why we debate but outside of this forum the norm is to deny God, not Allah. So it seems across the board that it’s only God and it does make believers wonder if the non believer really took it one God further.
> 
> But outside of that yea I’d hunt fish and camp with anyone here and never bring up anything religious while doing it.


I don't have any faith in any of the manmade Gods.

I don't consider myself an atheist, though.

I feel that there is a higher power in the universe. I think that is a common trait of most people, because pretty much every culture has a religion. The trouble is, none of them agree with each other on most things. I think this is because most folks sense a higher power, but lack the ability to define or explain it. So, they invent gods to suit their particular culture. This is either

a: an attempt to explain the unexplainable, or
b: a means to control people.

I think the analogy of the group of blind men each feeling of one part of an elephant and trying to describe the whole creature from that limited experience applies very well to religion.

Gods come and go. Loads of people used to devoutly believe in Zeus, Odin, Dagon, and others just as fervently as Jesus and Allah are revered now. Then people stopped believing in them and went on to something else.

Most devout Christians in America would right now be devout Muslims if they had been born in Iran, or devout Hindus if they had been born in India. They would believe that the Christians are wrong, and that they are right. I don't think anybody has a handle on it.

So, even though I believe there is a higher power or energy out there, I don't pretend to understand it. I don't believe that it is a certain way just because some Hebrew folks wrote a book 2,000 years ago that describes their opinion of it and often contradicts itself, or because some rich guy in a funny hat in a palace in Italy says it is a certain way, or because some nomadic camel herder has a revelation, or a fat Chinese guy thinks about it a lot and reaches a conclusion, etc. Most organized churches nowadays are just thinly disguised self-serving corporations that exist mainly to

c: separate people from their money.

If I had to define my personal religious beliefs, I would put them closer to various Celtic pagan beliefs or Native American spirituality.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 12, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I have never had sasquatch believers actively and fervently try to force me to believe in sasquatch and come to their sasquatch meetings, knock on my door and offer me sasquatch pamphlets, or ostracize me from their friendship and the community and talk about me behind my back and consider me inferior and dam ned because I don't have their same beliefs or attend their meetings where they talk about sasquatch. I can't say the same about some other groups.



I can understand what you’re saying.  I don’t operate that way, and haven’t really experienced that except from the Jehovah’s Witness folks.  I wasn’t really put off by them. They were always polite and once I allowed conversation and questioned them, they always wanted to leave my house.  I hate that you’ve been treated badly by people because of where you stand.  My entire family is Christian minus my cousin. He’s and athiest and transexual.  I only offer him kindness, even though he seems increasingly hateful.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 12, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I can understand what you’re saying.  I don’t operate that way, and haven’t really experienced that except from the Jehovah’s Witness folks.  I wasn’t really put off by them. They were always polite and once I allowed conversation and questioned them, they always wanted to leave my house.  I hate that you’ve been treated badly by people because of where you stand.  My entire family is Christian minus my cousin. He’s and athiest and transexual.  I only offer him kindness, even though he seems increasingly hateful.


I was raised by a Baptist preacher. We were in church every time the doors were open. Twice on Sunday, Wednesday night, revivals, Bible School, prayer meetings, the whole nine yards. In those days, you would be an outcast if you mowed your yard or fished on a Sunday, or drunk a beer.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 12, 2022)

ky55 said:


> Yep, that was my point.
> A person would have to live in a mud hut totally removed from civilization all of their life to deny benefiting from science.
> 
> 
> The folks who slam science will still show up at the emergency room when they have chest pain, and they’ll expect the newest technology and treatment to increase their chances of survival.



I think you’re confusing science and technology. Yes, I know they are closely related. The “science” I was referring to is the theoretical and political branch that operates on motives directed to them by their funding/donors. They are full of crap and it shows to anyone not also blindly walking in the same hopes and schools of thought as the donors. 

Trying to improve cars, homes, computers, products in general is what I consider technology, mostly powered by profiteering, even in the health sector. Leave “science” without directive money and the new dinosaurs and political carbon emissions forecasts fade away faster than they say the polar bears are. Same with improved mud huts…


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 12, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I was raised by a Baptist preacher. We were in church every time the doors were open. Twice on Sunday, Wednesday night, revivals, Bible School, prayer meetings, the whole nine yards. In those days, you would be an outcast if you mowed your yard or fished on a Sunday, or drunk a beer.



We weren’t raised too far apart in those ways. I had to avoid my church members when fishing on Sunday, even though it didn’t interfere with my church attendance. That was silliness, and we can both agree on that.  I’ve compartmentalized the human religions components and what is actually my communication and worship of God since my childhood. I’ve thrown away the human part as it was 99% useless anyway.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 12, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I think you’re confusing science and technology. Yes, I know they are closely related. The “science” I was referring to is the theoretical and political branch that operates on motives directed to them by their funding/donors. They are full of crap and it shows to anyone not also blindly walking in the same hopes and schools of thought as the donors.
> 
> Trying to improve cars, homes, computers, products in general is what I consider technology, mostly powered by profiteering, even in the health sector. Leave “science” without directive money and the new dinosaurs and political carbon emissions forecasts fade away faster than they say the polar bears are. Same with improved mud huts…


Science in general is not what you are describing. There are sectors of it that are influenced by grant money and politics, sure. That is junk science. And a lot of that is politicians spinning scientific research data to fit their agenda. It can be done in the oppossite manner, too. I can remember in the 70s when they said we were headed for another ice age. But, science by definition questions and corrects itself. I don't think anybody today, regardless of money, would assert that the sun revolves around the earth or that diseases are caused by evil spirits, like they thought in Bible times, for example.


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## buckpasser (Mar 12, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Science in general is not what you are describing. There are sectors of it that are influenced by grant money and politics, sure. That is junk science. And a lot of that is politicians spinning scientific research data to fit their agenda. It can be done in the oppossite manner, too. I can remember in the 70s when they said we were headed for another ice age. But, science by definition questions and corrects itself. I don't think anybody today, regardless of money, would assert that the sun revolves around the earth or that diseases are caused by evil spirits, like they thought in Bible times, for example.



I think it goes a little deeper than that, but we can disagree on it. You know there are still flatlanders, right?  Haha


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## NCHillbilly (Mar 12, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> We weren’t raised too far apart in those ways. I had to avoid my church members when fishing on Sunday, even though it didn’t interfere with my church attendance. That was silliness, and we can both agree on that.  I’ve compartmentalized the human religions components and what is actually my communication and worship of God since my childhood. I’ve thrown away the human part as it was 99% useless anyway.


I think religion should be a personal matter between you and whatever you worship. I have never felt close to God in a churchhouse full of people who are mostly there to be seen there. A feeling of spiritual connectiveness only comes to me on a mountaintop, or knee deep in a trout stream, or out in the woods or some such.


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## NCHillbilly (Mar 12, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I think it goes a little deeper than that, but we can disagree on it. You know there are still flatlanders, right?  Haha


 I enter the GON political forum as exhibit A, your Honor.  

And, how seriously are the Flat-earthers taken by most folks? About as seriously as I take folks who literally believe that Noah had two Smoky water shrews, two South American three-toed sloths, two Brazilian tapirs, two southern Appalachian bog lemmings, two American grizzly bears, and two Coues deer on his ark, and that snakes and donkeys can talk to people.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 12, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I think you’re confusing science and technology. Yes, I know they are closely related. The “science” I was referring to is the theoretical and political branch that operates on motives directed to them by their funding/donors. They are full of crap and it shows to anyone not also blindly walking in the same hopes and schools of thought as the donors.
> 
> Trying to improve cars, homes, computers, products in general is what I consider technology, mostly powered by profiteering, even in the health sector. Leave “science” without directive money and the new dinosaurs and political carbon emissions forecasts fade away faster than they say the polar bears are. Same with improved mud huts…


That urban saying "dont hate the playa, hate the game" comes to mind.
Science costs money. That opens the door to all the crap you describe. Sad but true.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 12, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I enter the GON political forum as exhibit A, your Honor.
> 
> And, how seriously are the Flat-earthers taken by most folks? About as seriously as I take folks who literally believe that Noah had two Smoky water shrews, two South American three-toed sloths, two Brazilian tapirs, two southern Appalachian bog lemmings, and two Coues deer on his ark, and that snakes and donkeys can talk to people.



Yeah, my Dad and I have discussed the Ark thing before in relation to animals like you’ve mentioned.  I won’t post any theories here, but I get your point for sure.  You’re right, flat-earthers, not landers.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 12, 2022)

Baroque Brass said:


> Except for the ones that believe in the healing power of prayer over modern medicine.


Of course, a number of those end up in court for not taking their dying child to a doctor for easily curable medical issues.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 12, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I think religion should be a personal matter between you and whatever you worship. I have never felt close to God in a churchhouse full of people who are mostly there to be seen there. A feeling of spiritual connectiveness only comes to me on a mountaintop, or knee deep in a trout stream, or out in the woods or some such.



I agree with most of that. It seems like I would have felt a spiritual connection in the woods or trout stream too. I never have. I’m just having fun and enjoying creation as much as possible during those outings.  If the scripture I believe in didn’t direct me to “assemble” with other believers I don’t think I’d go to church. However, I’m fortunate to attend a church of very real people.  I know that it might be the exception, but we have struggling alcoholics, some really gritty country folks, some successful businessmen, and basically zero human judgement for attendance, situation or appearance.  I’ve been there for about nine years after taking a few years off of any church and it feels like I’m at a family get together every time I go. We actually went to a family get together last night, and it felt much more awkward!  Haha


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## buckpasser (Mar 12, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Of course, a number of those end up in court for not taking their dying child to a doctor for easily curable medical issues.



Sadly, that happened in my county. Nine year old child died of appendicitis.


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## NCHillbilly (Mar 12, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I agree with most of that. It seems like I would have felt a spiritual connection in the woods or trout stream too. I never have. I’m just having fun and enjoying creation as much as possible during those outings.  If the scripture I believe in didn’t direct me to “assemble” with other believers I don’t think I’d go to church. However, I’m fortunate to attend a church of very real people.  I know that it might be the exception, but we have struggling alcoholics, some really gritty country folks, some successful businessmen, and basically zero human judgement for attendance, situation or appearance.  I’ve been there for about nine years after taking a few years off of any church and it feels like I’m at a family get together every time I go. We actually went to a family get together last night, and it felt much more awkward!  Haha


I think church for a lot of folks is a social gathering. Which is not a bad thing. I don't like people much.


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## NCHillbilly (Mar 12, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Sadly, that happened in my county. Nine year old child died of appendicitis.


50 year old preacher died from a rattlesnake bite in my county.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 12, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I don't have any faith in any of the manmade Gods.
> 
> I don't consider myself an atheist, though.
> 
> ...





> So, they invent gods to suit their particular culture.


Bingo ^
Thats why I have rejected organized religion and its teachings but leave open the possibility of what we as humans refer to as (G)gods/Creator.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 12, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Sadly, that happened in my county. Nine year old child died of appendicitis.


I have zero patience for that type of situation. They wouldnt want me on their jury.
I fully support folks right to their religion but there is a line that shouldnt be crossed in my opinion.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 12, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> 50 year old preacher died from a rattlesnake bit in my county.


Was the snake ok?


----------



## ky55 (Mar 12, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I think you’re confusing science and technology. Yes, I know they are closely related. The “science” I was referring to is the theoretical and political branch that operates on motives directed to them by their funding/donors.



I think you are confusing science and politics.

But science and technology have both made great advancements in the relatively short period of time since the Church stopped burning heretics at the stake. 
That seemed to be a great incentive to research.


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## buckpasser (Mar 12, 2022)

ky55 said:


> I think you are confusing science and politics.
> 
> But science and technology have both made great advancements in the relatively short period of time since the Church stopped burning heretics at the stake.
> That seemed to be a great incentive to research.



We’ll have to agree to disagree on this.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 12, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> I have zero patience for that type of situation. They wouldnt want me on their jury.
> I fully support folks right to their religion but there is a line that shouldnt be crossed in my opinion.



The mother who made the decision is a wreck. I’m not saying the legal system has no place here, but I seriously doubt any directed punishment could compare to where she is after losing her only son.  I wouldn’t want to be on the jury. 

I have two small children. I pray for them and I can’t say what will happen to any of us, but when we’re sick enough to deserve it, we see a doctor. My daughter was struck funny by an enterovirus at age 7 and lost the function of her legs. We went to the children’s hospital at Jacksonville immediately!  I don’t regret it, and I do thank God constantly that she’s not paralyzed or worse right now.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 12, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> The mother who made the decision is a wreck. I’m not saying the legal system has no place here, but I seriously doubt any directed punishment could compare to where she is after losing her only son.  I wouldn’t want to be on the jury.
> 
> I have two small children. I pray for them and I can’t say what will happen to any of us, but when we’re sick enough to deserve it, we see a doctor. My daughter was struck funny by an enterovirus at age 7 and lost the function of her legs. We went to the children’s hospital at Jacksonville immediately!  I don’t regret it, and I do thank God constantly that she’s not paralyzed or worse right now.


I'll be honest. I find it difficult to feel bad for the mother regardless of how much of a wreck she is. All my "feel bad" goes out to the child who basically was an innocent victim.
You did it the way it should be done in my opinion. Put the child first, get them to the doctor/hospital and then thank God or whoever it is you believe in after that.
And I truly am glad your daughter is ok. It must have been a terrifying experience for her. And you.


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## buckpasser (Mar 12, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> I'll be honest. I find it difficult to feel bad for the mother regardless of how much of a wreck she is. All my "feel bad" goes out to the child who basically was an innocent victim.
> You did it the way it should be done in my opinion. Put the child first, get them to the doctor/hospital and then thank God or whoever it is you believe in after that.
> And I truly am glad your daughter is ok. It must have been a terrifying experience for her. And you.



The scariest moment of my life. She was young and calm about it.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 12, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I don't have any faith in any of the manmade Gods.
> 
> I don't consider myself an atheist, though.
> 
> ...





NCHillbilly said:


> I don't have any faith in any of the manmade Gods.


At this point how confident are you that God is a manmade God? Can you say 100%? If not, are you open minded enough to discover more?



> I feel that there is a higher power in the universe. I think that is a common trait of most people, because pretty much every culture has a religion. The trouble is, none of them agree with each other on most things. I think this is because most folks sense a higher power, but lack the ability to define or explain it.


Most Christians are not Christians because they are looking for how others agree on the subject.



> Most devout Christians in America would right now be devout Muslims if they had been born in Iran, or devout Hindus if they had been born in India.



Although I would expect there are those that would be, but I would not buy that as set in concrete. As mentioned above, most Christians, especially "devout" are not Christians because of others.



> So, even though I believe there is a higher power or energy out there, I don't pretend to understand it. I don't believe that it is a certain way just because some Hebrew folks wrote a book 2,000 years ago that describes their opinion of it and often contradicts itself, or because some rich guy in a funny hat in a palace in Italy says it is a certain way, or because some nomadic camel herder has a revelation, or a fat Chinese guy thinks about it a lot and reaches a conclusion


As mentioned previously, most Christians are not Christians and believe a certain way because something is written in a book or some fat guy in a funny hat has a revelation, that is a fairy tale that non believers have believed for many years................I know some non believers view us as not using good ole common sense lacking the ability to critical think when it comes to religion.............but we are not that shallow with our beliefs. There is a-lot more to it than that^^^^^and as matter of fact, that^^^^^ is most often the reason no believers conclude their non belief - research of someone else says............


> Most organized churches nowadays are just thinly disguised self-serving corporations that exist


I don`t know many folk that have anything to do with organized churches, I will have to take your word for it.

Now this is just my opinion based on my experience in my small world, I have not seen everything that goes on out there that others may have seen.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 12, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> The scariest moment of my life. She was young and calm about it.


That ^ kind of made me chuckle although its not actually funny. Her being the calm one and you freaking out.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 12, 2022)

> ky55 said:





> I think you are confusing science and politics.
> 
> But science and technology have both made great advancements in the relatively short period of time since the Church stopped burning heretics at the stake.
> That seemed to be a great incentive to research.





buckpasser said:


> We’ll have to agree to disagree on this.


Its all intertwined. You have to play the politics game to get the grant money to do the science to make (hopefully) the great advancements.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 12, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Its all intertwined. You have to play the politics game to get the grant money to do the science to make (hopefully) the great advancements.



I’m sure you do, but it creates an atmosphere and expectation for dishonest findings pretty often.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Mar 12, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I think religion should be a personal matter between you and whatever you worship. I have never felt close to God in a churchhouse full of people who are mostly there to be seen there. A feeling of spiritual connectiveness only comes to me on a mountaintop, or knee deep in a trout stream, or out in the woods or some such.



I agree connecting with nature and what is older & bigger than yourself (what is real and cannot be misinterpreted nor twisted by mankind) makes a lot of sense. I'm sure such spiritualism has been around as long as our species if not before that.

But once organized religion came on the scene, such a simplistic attitude would paint you as a primitive uneducated heathen savage. Sad but true!


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## WaltL1 (Mar 12, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I’m sure you do, but it creates an atmosphere and expectation for dishonest findings pretty often.


No argument from me. I think there are elements of dishonesty in most everything. I'm absolutely sure there are cases of the truth being stretched/fabricated about scientific finds to be able to get more grant money to continue on and make more profits.
On the flip side, there is no denying the advancements that are made.


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## ky55 (Mar 12, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> No argument from me. I think there are elements of dishonesty in most everything. I'm absolutely sure there are cases of the truth being stretched/fabricated about scientific finds to be able to get more grant money to continue on and make more profits.
> On the flip side, there is no denying the advancements that are made.



Yep, when we see the dishonesty and greed that has always gone on in the Church, we can be pretty sure it’s everywhere else. 
But you can’t throw out the baby with the bath water…….
or the stem cells.


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## NCHillbilly (Mar 12, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I agree connecting with nature and what is older & bigger than yourself (what is real and cannot be misinterpreted nor twisted by mankind) makes a lot of sense. I'm sure such spiritualism has been around as long as our species if not before that.
> 
> But once organized religion came on the scene, such a simplistic attitude would paint you as a primitive uneducated heathen savage. Sad but true!


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## WaltL1 (Mar 12, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> View attachment 1140586



Well at least you were honest filling out your profile.


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## bullethead (Mar 12, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> If you had the ability to breath life into clay beings, what good would they be to create drones, lacking the ability to act of their own will?  Would worship or praise have any value from such a mindless creation?  That’s as far as I can get in explaining how I see free will and the course that man ultimately took.
> 
> Also, I’m not downing anyone or arguing, but why bring up such points if you just truly don’t believe in Christianity or any other organized religion’s way of thinking. If I was not a believer, I’d like to think I’d just let it go, secure in my decision, not go around cheerleading to children that Santa is a myth. Constant review of disbelief often signals a deep rooted, yet often times denied sense of discontentment about where they stand with God.  Maybe that applies to no one here, but I suspect it does.


Can you watch The Walking Dead and converse about it while actually not believing in Zombies?  We can use any number of examples here but reanimated dead people works...
If someone "preached" to you about how having a Zombie in your life would make you a better person what position would you take?
If someone tells you that they know how a Zombie thinks, feels, what a Zombie wants and makes claims about Zombies that sound outlandish wouldn't it interest you to call them out on it at some point? This wouldn't be an isolated incident. You would be hearing about Zombies your entire life. You would have buildings dedicated to reading and preaching about Zombies. All these people, almost daily,  will be trying to convince you that Zombies do things and worldwide events have happened,  great works have been done and you are who you are  because of Zombies. At some point you give in, you have to ask them  "huh?" "What are ypouu talking about, are you telling me things are true?" And they say "Oh most certainly yes!"
And then you say "well I have been alive for X many years and I have just  not seen evidence of these Zombies nor have I seen where any of these events, happenings, doings, and tales that you and others constantly speak of have ever happened...can you provide me some facts to back up your claims?"
And the Zombie nut proceeds to point out some lines in a book where it says these things took place. You squint your eyes, wrinkle your nose and reply "but...you are just reading lines...almost from a script....that is in a book about Zombies that is meant to captivate your attention but it isn't real!"
Then you are told that even though they cannot produce a single fact to help themselves and their claims outside of the Zombie book that what is written in the Zomble is 100% true and backed up 100% by history and science , that all you have to do is read the Zomble, suspend all suspicion, go against your inner gut feeling and just believe what is written is true because Look> it says here on page 8 "What is written in this book is true"
Then after you still don't fall for it they say you were made by Zombies to never be capable of understanding the book that the Zombies wrote for you. You are not one of the Hoard. And it is ok, but because you were made to not not believe what is written you will still have to be punished for eternity when you die because you aren't a follower of the rules you were created not to follow. See how that makes perfect sense?

Again even if you don't believe in Zombies it is intriguing to find out more about what makes a Person tick who does not only believe in Zombies but makes wild claims about Zombies and says you need to believe what they believe also. Something makes me want to know more not necessarily about the Zombies but the person and talking their talk is the only way to do it.
And then the Zombie guy tells you...now those people who read the Wherewolf book....goodness have they ever got it all wrong! 
Your eyes start to squint...nose is a wrinkling...and you think..Man I GOTTA hear this and ask a couple questions...


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 12, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> View attachment 1140586



 sorry - no offense!


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 12, 2022)

Bullethead's zombie comments jogged my memory. Here's something really trippy in the New Testament that is rarely mentioned because Jesus is the focus of the resurrection (as it should be) so this tidbit gets passed by, but here we go:

when Jesus died on the cross "the curtain of the temple" was torn from the intensity of the world changing event. But when the curtain was torn many graves of dead saints were thrown open and the undead walked among the people and interacted with them! 

Okay, I don't care who you are, countless numbers of undead walking around the region is a pretty big deal! That would be talked about and recorded for posterity by every historian alive at the time! This would be even bigger news than Jesus crucifiction and subsequent resurrection! 

But it's barely mentioned. It's an "oh and by the way the undead came out of their graves too" bit of trivia I guess. What's up with that? MATTHEW 27: 51-53

"At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people."

So tell me - was the sudden appearance of long dead bodies a metaphor or meant to be taken literally? More importantly why was this not considered a much bigger deal 
than it was, and only mentioned one time, and in only ONE OF THE FOUR GOSPELS!
I understand that the four gospels will different depending on what the authors were trying to focus on, but HOW CAN THE REST OF THE GOSPEL AUTHORS NOT EVEN MENTION IT? I can't wait to hear this explained.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 12, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> So tell me - was the sudden appearance of long dead bodies a metaphor or meant to be taken literally? More importantly why was this not considered a much bigger deal
> than it was, and only mentioned one time, and in only ONE OF THE FOUR GOSPELS!
> I understand that the four gospels will different depending on what the authors were trying to focus on, but HOW CAN THE REST OF THE GOSPEL AUTHORS NOT EVEN MENTION IT? I can't wait to hear this explained.


It was prophesied in Hosea and Isaiah if I remember correctly. It would have been expected.


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## hummerpoo (Mar 12, 2022)

God does not think; nor does He desire or consider.
When an omniscient, omnipotent, immutable entity (God) acted, acts, or will act temporally (anthropomorphically speaking) it is perceived by His creation as reality.

IOW — when God does whatever he does, which we can only understand as thinking, the result is perceived as actuality — there is no potentiality in God.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 12, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> It was prophesied in Hosea and Isaiah if I remember correctly. It would have been expected.


 
Interesting! So it was prophesized hundreds of years before Jesus time, and this prophesy was one of many prophesies that were fulfilled on a regular basis, yet it didn't catch anyone by surprise, even non-believing citizens who didn't follow Judaism and it's related prophesies? 

Or is it possible that the many graves busting open and unloosing saintly bodies was shoehorned into the story (by the authors of the gospel of Matthew) just to make it look like a prophesy was thus fulfilled?  This would explain why none of the other gospel authors mentioned it, nor any historians. Granted a lot was going on at the time, but a mass ghostly army of saints/holy figures would be newsworthy.


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## bullethead (Mar 12, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> It was prophesied in Hosea and Isaiah if I remember correctly. It would have been expected.


Possibly to the people of the culture that might have believed it. But for everyone else, IE: living outside of the stories, would not know of any prophesy or care if they did. Respectfully,  it would have been recorded outside of scripture.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 12, 2022)

I've never understood anti-science Christians. Why can't science and religion both coincide? The way I look at it, God is the Great Architect/Scientist and used science to form and operate His creation.
If not why would a Christian rush to the aid of a doctor or even get any preventative medical procedures?
An example would be these folks that keep saying "Faith over Fear" until they come down with something and then take everything in the book for a virus that wasn't that bad to start with. Kinda makes them hypocrites using all that "Science." What happened to their "Faith" and why did they succumb to "fear" when they actually contacted the virus?


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## gemcgrew (Mar 12, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Possibly to the people of the culture that might have believed it. But for everyone else, IE: living outside of the stories, would not know of any prophesy or care if they did. Respectfully,  it would have been recorded outside of scripture.


That may only indicate that the occurrence was not for everybody else.


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## bullethead (Mar 12, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> I've never understood anti-science Christians. Why can't science and religion both coincide? The way I look at it, God is the Great Architect/Scientist and used science to form and operate His creation.
> If not why would a Christian rush to the aid of a doctor or even get any preventative medical procedures?
> An example would be these folks that keep saying "Faith over Fear" until they come down with something and then take everything in the book for a virus that wasn't that bad to start with. Kinda makes them hypocrites using all that "Science." What happened to their "Faith" and why did they succumb to "fear" when they actually contacted the virus?


Why would a great Architect/Scientist wait thousands of years to introduce "his" medical advances while hundreds of millions of "his" children died without them?


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## buckpasser (Mar 12, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Can you watch The Walking Dead and converse about it while actually not believing in Zombies?  We can use any number of examples here but reanimated dead people works...
> If someone "preached" to you about how having a Zombie in your life would make you a better person what position would you take?
> If someone tells you that they know how a Zombie thinks, feels, what a Zombie wants and makes claims about Zombies that sound outlandish wouldn't it interest you to call them out on it at some point? This wouldn't be an isolated incident. You would be hearing about Zombies your entire life. You would have buildings dedicated to reading and preaching about Zombies. All these people, almost daily,  will be trying to convince you that Zombies do things and worldwide events have happened,  great works have been done and you are who you are  because of Zombies. At some point you give in, you have to ask them  "huh?" "What are ypouu talking about, are you telling me things are true?" And they say "Oh most certainly yes!"
> And then you say "well I have been alive for X many years and I have just  not seen evidence of these Zombies nor have I seen where any of these events, happenings, doings, and tales that you and others constantly speak of have ever happened...can you provide me some facts to back up your claims?"
> ...



I’m not judging anyone, but that is just a stretch too big for me. I’ve spent my life surrounded by the following and surely more:

Jews
Mormons
jehovah’s Witness
Muslims
Hindus
Christian denominations I find pretty out there

I literally spend zero time concerned with what they do. Some attempt to convert me, some don’t. I could care less. I just stated what I did because it seems to me there’s an undying nervous desire to discuss their disbelief in every Athiest I know.  The one in my family is seeking higher and higher levels of education in philosophy to fill the void.  Some say man is born with the need to worship God or they can’t be content.  I’m leaning towards believing it at this point.


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## ky55 (Mar 12, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Why would a great Architect/Scientist wait thousands of years to introduce "his" medical advances while hundreds of millions of "his" children died without them?



We can’t know the mind of a god.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 12, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Interesting! So it was prophesized hundreds of years before Jesus time, and this prophesy was one of many prophesies that were fulfilled on a regular basis, yet it didn't catch anyone by surprise, even non-believing citizens who didn't follow Judaism and it's related prophesies?


Matthew doesn't mention "non-believing citizens who didn't follow Judaism and it's related prophesies".


oldfella1962 said:


> Or is it possible that the many graves busting open and unloosing saintly bodies was shoehorned into the story (by the authors of the gospel of Matthew) just to make it look like a prophesy was thus fulfilled?  This would explain why none of the other gospel authors mentioned it, nor any historians. Granted a lot was going on at the time, but a mass ghostly army of saints/holy figures would be newsworthy.


There are an infinite number of ways the natural man can explain it away. Natural phenomena is always at the top of the list.


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## bullethead (Mar 12, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> That may only indicate that the occurrence was not for everybody else.


It may indicate a few possibilities.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 12, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Why would a great Architect/Scientist wait thousands of years to introduce "his" medical advances while hundreds of millions of "his" children died without them?


I used to think He just built the ant farm and then turned it over to free will, letting science(natural happenings) take the earth where it may with some divine intervention here and there. Thus the science would develop or get discovered by knowledge and time by freewill, chance, and happenstance.

Now I'm pretty sure that an omnipotent God would have to continuously control every tiny little aspect of science 24 hours a day. I mean it's still His science. Therefore it was His decision on man discovering it and not by chance or choice.
I'm not sure why he waited though.

I've played all the scenario you've heard on here of how an omnipotent God and free will can coincide in my mind over the years. They can't. Even if one had choices, God has already seen them and knows what you would do. Therefore you can't undo what God has already foreseen as he would have seen that as well.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 12, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Possibly to the people of the culture that might have believed it. But for everyone else, IE: living outside of the stories, would not know of any prophesy or care if they did. Respectfully,  it would have been recorded outside of scripture.



yet it wasn't....isn't that odd?


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## bullethead (Mar 12, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I’m not judging anyone, but that is just a stretch too big for me. I’ve spent my life surrounded by the following and surely more:
> 
> Jews
> Mormons
> ...


But yet here you are spending time in discussion with the opposite of that crowd.


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## bullethead (Mar 12, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> yet it wasn't....isn't that odd?


Not odd if you convince yourself that others were blinded to it's happening and one's that it was meant for stayed composed while graves burst open and souls,spirits,saints were dashing about because they heard it was going to happen. You just cannot rattle the chosen.
But it depends upon the excuse per situation per believer.  We are an ant farm left to find the knowledge one time and blinded from reality the next.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 12, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> Matthew doesn't mention "non-believing citizens who didn't follow Judaism and it's related prophesies".
> 
> There are an infinite number of ways the natural man can explain it away. Natural phenomena is always at the top of the list.



you missed my point. Those who didn't follow prophecy (not everyone in the region was a practicing Jew) would certainly have been freaked out by the formerly buried bodies of the departed rejoining the living. 

I don't believe natural phenomena would have worked as a reason for the dead to come to life on a large scale, because that has never happened to any culture ever since the beginning of time, and it has never occurred since.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 12, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> you missed my point. Those who didn't follow prophecy (not everyone in the region was a practicing Jew) would certainly have been freaked out by the formerly buried bodies of the departed rejoining the living.


Again, Matthew doesn't mention that "Those who didn't follow prophecy (not everyone in the region was a practicing Jew)" were involved at all.


oldfella1962 said:


> I don't believe natural phenomena would have worked as a reason for the dead to come to life on a large scale, because that has never happened to any culture ever since the beginning of time, and it has never occurred since.


Conjecture


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## bullethead (Mar 12, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> you missed my point. Those who didn't follow prophecy (not everyone in the region was a practicing Jew) would certainly have been freaked out by the formerly buried bodies of the departed rejoining the living.
> 
> I don't believe natural phenomena would have worked as a reason for the dead to come to life on a large scale, because that has never happened to any culture ever since the beginning of time, and it has never occurred since.


Only the chosen were allowed to see them and the chosen were just like "just another day..."


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## buckpasser (Mar 12, 2022)

bullethead said:


> But yet here you are spending time in discussion with the opposite of that crowd.



Think of me as a visitor to the “zombies aren’t real club” because I’m suspicious about it’s members secretly hoping to see a zombie, or possibly knowing they already have!  Haha


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## bullethead (Mar 12, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Think of me as a visitor to the “zombies aren’t real club” because I’m suspicious about it’s members secretly hoping to see a zombie, or possibly knowing they already have!  Haha


I personally would love to see a Zombie but not even remotely as much as I want to see, feel, get dropped kicked by a god which comes in close second to having someone back up their claims wih something other than scripture or even more assertive claims.


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## buckpasser (Mar 12, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I personally would love to see a Zombie but not even remotely as much as I want to see, feel, get dropped kicked by a god which comes in close second to having someone back up their claims wih something other than scripture or even more assertive claims.



First hand accounts are out too I suppose, being they aren’t irrefutable “proof”.


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## ky55 (Mar 12, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> First hand accounts are out too I suppose, being they aren’t irrefutable “proof”.



I can’t speak for Bullet, but first-hand accounts are undeniable proof!


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## bullethead (Mar 12, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> First hand accounts are out too I suppose, being they aren’t irrefutable “proof”.


No, but, if I accept your first hand accounts will you accept the first hand accounts of believers in and of all the other religions?
Where is the exclusively? Where is something that stands out above and beyond all others?


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## bullethead (Mar 12, 2022)

ky55 said:


> I can’t speak for Bullet, but first-hand accounts are undeniable proof!


Well it depends on who, what, where, when, how.
Like multiple people with no bias all see something and all tell similar stories....Definitely credible.
I am alone fishing and I say Bigfoot came by me in a canoe asking for directions......mmmmmm not so much.


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## ky55 (Mar 12, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Well it depends on who, what, where, when, how.
> Like multiple people with no bias all see something and all tell similar stories....Definitely credible.
> I am alone fishing and I say Bigfoot came by me in a canoe asking for directions......mmmmmm not so much.



Yep, 
No witness to confirm, it didn’t happen.


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## bullethead (Mar 12, 2022)

ky55 said:


> Yep,
> No witness to confirm, it didn’t happen.


And, all we have is modern people, with varying opinions, what ifs, and excuses about things that were written thousands of years ago.
People all over the world have "experiences" which are unique, odd, bizarre, beautiful and magnificent which are often unexplainable but because of where they were born, how they were raised, what they were taught etc can and do link it to something religious which is a comfortable explanation. But again none seem to have the market of truth cornered.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 13, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Think of me as a visitor to the “zombies aren’t real club” because I’m suspicious about it’s members secretly hoping to see a zombie, or possibly knowing they already have!  Haha


I think your suspicions are a bit off but I commend you for actually coming here to talk to the zombie deniers instead of just believing it.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 13, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I’m not judging anyone, but that is just a stretch too big for me. I’ve spent my life surrounded by the following and surely more:
> 
> Jews
> Mormons
> ...





> Some say man is born with the need to worship God or they can’t be content.


First - Dont forget there were lots of other gods believed in before the Christian God was a thing. You used capital G above which typically means the Christian God.
And yes it would seem that man believing in a god seems to be the normal thing. Throughout mans history and around the world most folks have believed in a god or gods. So again yes, some form of religion and gods seems to be ingrained in mans psyche. So -


> Some say man is born with the need to worship God


Wouldnt be some earth shattering discovery.
But note that is all about MAN'S psyche and has ZERO to do with if those gods actually exist. All the believers in all the different gods just insist that they exist. And most of the time they insist only their particular god they believe in exists and all the others dont. Youve seen that right here in this thread.
In reality what we are talking about here isnt just God or gods, its....psychology.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 13, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I’m not judging anyone, but that is just a stretch too big for me. I’ve spent my life surrounded by the following and surely more:
> 
> Jews
> Mormons
> ...





> I just stated what I did because it seems to me there’s an undying nervous desire to discuss their disbelief in every Athiest I know.


By the way there is 1 subforum for nonbelievers. And it includes believers. Now go count how many subforums there are for believers.
And its the Atheist undying nervous desire to discuss that you noticed?
Interesting.
By the way there is only a couple proclaimed Atheists here. The rest are Agnostic.
Although to be honest Im not sure there is a whole lot of difference.


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## bullethead (Mar 13, 2022)

> Some say man is born with the need to worship God


I believe there is a good case to be made that once living and breathing forefathers had their stories told long after death and their knowledge and experience was relied upon by the living long after they passed.
Like anything human as time went on their real life accomplishments were embellished, especially among those who were great Chiefs, Clan Leaders, basically any kind of leading role that was dominant among a tribe and surrounding area and some stood out longer by more people who looked up to a deceased person of power. And again just like when alive a "my dad is tougher than your dad" competition inevitably starts to the point where over decades and centuries these once great human leaders get elevated to God status in death as embellishments are added each time the stories are told farther away from the generation before them. Often enhanced by bloodline successors who encourage the stories to be told who grew up hearing of incredible stories of greatness from their now long dead ancestor. The new leaders reflect back to the deceased for guidance. Competing tribes turn into competing cultures who expand through wars. Numbers grow into nations and over time once great dead humans have long become gods which get weeded out and consolodated by the victors. And all throughout the history of these cultures the "gods" seem to like, love, hate, think, act and have the same emotions as whoever is in power. 
Humans have desires to be Led and be Rewarded. When the reality of death is realized coupled with the realization that the golden ticket isn't happening in this lifetime...humans create a better place to hit the jackpot for eternity as incentive to deal with the reality of mortality.
They will all be rewarded upon death by some former ruler who has been consolidated into a super god by mixing many great dead leaders into one over the span of history. The competition is narrowed down into major religions who've gained followers as they were encompassed into the beliefs through willingness or being conquered into the major religions we have now.
The history of man is the history of gods.


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## NCHillbilly (Mar 13, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I believe there is a good case to be made that once living and breathing forefathers had their stories told long after death and their knowledge and experience was relied upon by the living long after they passed.
> Like anything human as time went on their real life accomplishments were embellished, especially among those who were great Chiefs, Clan Leaders, basically any kind of leading role that was dominant among a tribe and surrounding area and some stood out longer by more people who looked up to a deceased person of power. And again just like when alive a "my dad is tougher than your dad" competition inevitably starts to the point where over decades and centuries these once great human leaders get elevated to God status in death as embellishments are added each time the stories are told farther away from the generation before them. Often enhanced by bloodline successors who encourage the stories to be told who grew up hearing of incredible stories of greatness from their now long dead ancestor. The new leaders reflect back to the deceased for guidance. Competing tribes turn into competing cultures who expand through wars. Numbers grow into nations and over time once great dead humans have long become gods which get weeded out and consolodated by the victors. And all throughout the history of these cultures the "gods" seem to like, love, hate, think, act and have the same emotions as whoever is in power.
> Humans have desires to be Led and be Rewarded. When the reality of death is realized coupled with the realization that the golden ticket isn't happening in this lifetime...humans create a better place to hit the jackpot for eternity as incentive to deal with the reality of mortality.
> They will all be rewarded upon death by some former ruler who has been consolidated into a super god by mixing many great dead leaders into one over the span of history. The competition is narrowed down into major religions who've gained followers as they were encompassed into the beliefs through willingness or being conquered into the major religions we have now.
> The history of man is the history of gods.


I always thought it interesting that the Hebrew and Arab Gods are held to be perfect and infallible, while the gods of many cultures like the Greeks and Norse displayed many human traits, had faults and flaws, and could be deceived and make mistakes.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 13, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> Again, Matthew doesn't mention that "Those who didn't follow prophecy (not everyone in the region was a practicing Jew)" were involved at all.
> 
> Conjecture



My point is a mass grave busting/the dead becoming suddenly undead would be noticed by EVERYBODY sooner versus later. It would be hard to keep that a secret. The whole village draws water from the same well, so I'm sure the subject would come up in conversation.


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## bullethead (Mar 13, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I always thought it interesting that the Hebrew and Arab Gods are held to be perfect and infallible, while the gods of many cultures like the Greeks and Norse displayed many human traits, had faults and flaws, and could be deceived and make mistakes.


The bible does show god's human characteristics but it seems he blinds his followers from reading them. ?


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## NCHillbilly (Mar 13, 2022)

bullethead said:


> The bible does show god's human characteristics but it seems he blinds his followers from reading them. ?


Yet, be he is _supposed_ to be perfect by definition. We are supposed to ignore the jealousy, anger, spite, bloodlust, narcissism, and apathy of much of his Old Testament behavior.


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## Danuwoa (Mar 13, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> View attachment 1139950
> 
> "Created in his image."- In his great omnipotence,  did he miss the mark a bit?
> 
> ...


Corbett I’m one who has no issue with people asking questions.  Some Christians will get angry with people for asking questions and not just taking everything at face value but I don’t feel that way.  I think questions are faith seeking a deeper understanding.  That said, there are some things that are not meant for us to know.  I dont know why.  One thing people tend to get hung up on is why would God create a world knowing we would fall and give in to the temptation brought upon us and why would he even place the snake there in the first place?  Maybe because a world with snakes ie dangers, temptations, struggles, is a better world all things considered.  Otherwise what’s the point in even being awake if there is nothing to contend with or overcome?


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## Danuwoa (Mar 13, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> It’s always amusing to see people who are turning their nose up at the faith of Christianity based on their own faith that God doesn’t exist or that Christ wasn’t truly God incarnate.  This is a binary deal; you either believe in Jesus Christ or you believe the alternative, but we all have faith.


There are people here who live to mock Christians through their narcissistic belief that they know what is and what is not.  1eyefishing is not one of those people.


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## Danuwoa (Mar 13, 2022)

660griz said:


> Since there are hundreds or thousands of gods, not really binary. It is true we all have faith. The difference is, some have faith based on research, logic, critical thinking, good ol common sense and some have faith cause they were born into the cult and drank the cool-aid. Mostly too scared to think of the alternative cause what if there is a he!!? Like the saying goes, we are all atheist. I just don't believe in one more god than you.


Pure narcissism.


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## 1eyefishing (Mar 13, 2022)

Thx, Dan-o.
 At this exact moment I was just sitting here thinking about opening my next thread about 'from where the disdain?'
 It seems like you can't ask a question as a spiritually curious person without receiving condescension from people who believe that their beliefs make them better than you.
 Sometimes I think for some people That are strictly connected to the exact word of God are leaning on that framework as a support system that keeps them from being a really awful person (heathen savage). Maybe the way an alcoholic leans on AA  to keep himself from taking the one sip of beer which would lead into a sudden relapse as a complete alcoholic.

 I got news for them. I think I am a top notch person even without the support system. I trust greatly that I am not gonna end up in a boiling vat full of evil aweful souls.
 I opened this thread not asking if God exists, but how we attribute so many attributes to him such as omnipotent and all-knowing and All-powerful. This has been implied again in the thread without any Consideration as to how one comes to this belief.
 I gave somewhat a logical framework framework as to why I wonder. Can anybody give a logical framework about how these attributes are given without without relying on 'because the bible'?

 Dang I am a slow responder. This conversation always gets post ahead ahead when I am slow typing.


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## Danuwoa (Mar 13, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I believe our creator appreciates and approves of praise, but it’s pretty obvious that He doesn’t demand it, therefore improving the value of completely voluntary said worship.
> 
> The children thing was just a parallel. It’s pretty apparent that Santa isn’t real. It’s also not considered normal behavior to go around disparaging him to those who still believe or even to fellow nonbelievers. My point is, why isn’t that the case with God?  In this nation, you aren’t forced to live by a religious standard, so to me it would be like people meeting to discuss and constantly visiting how badly they hate college basketball. People generally focus on things they believe, love, or are excited about. Atheism seems to be a rare exception. Why can’t those who choose that route just let it go?  That’s a real question, not rhetoric.  As for your other points, I think we pretty much agree, and yes, I realize I’m on your turf here. If I’m not welcomed, I can leave. I just wanted to respectfully chat with you all, and share my perspective.


Good questions.  I think it’s because for them the existence of something greater than them who expects something of them beyond their own desires is intolerable.  And it’s their life, they can live it as they want to live it.  But I can’t take seriously any admonishments about open mindedness and critical thinking from such people.  A critical thinker isn’t bothered by people with a belief system that doesn’t match their own.  A critical thinker also doesn’t believe the tired old trope that religion is responsible for more human suffering than anything else.  Totalitarian governments are responsible for more human suffering than anything else and it’s not even close.


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## Danuwoa (Mar 13, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> @earlthegoat2 who is telling you that?  From another perspective, I sense there is much less human force or influence pushing the need for faith over the course of my lifetime. At the same time, I see the world as a generally darker, dumber, sadder place. I can’t help but feel those converse graphs are related.  I know there are other factors (ie human population growth), but it’s strange for me to read something like your post and have such a different sense of the world that we both live in.
> 
> By the way, I realize science “proves” God isn’t real, couldn’t be real, etc., but keep in mind these folks are from the same school of thought that can hardly predict if it will rain tomorrow, yet announce with certainty exactly how much hotter the Earth will be in 2050 due to greenhouse gases…they “discover” new species of dinosaurs by finding a piece of a leg bone and building an elaborate depiction around it, complete with all the spicy adaptations plaster can fabricate. They constantly amend the outdated ridiculous theories they all once held as probable truth when they are firmly debunked. In summary, largely they are liars, or fools, or both.


This.  Ironic to be that so many seem to believe that with no religion the world would be a much freer, intelligent, brighter, happier place.  Because as this country has become more secular it has proportionately become sadder, darker, dumber, and less free.  Jordan Peterson, who is no Christian, talks at length about the role Christianity has played in this country for the better.


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## bullethead (Mar 13, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Corbett I’m one who has no issue with people asking questions.  Some Christians will get angry with people for asking questions and not just taking everything at face value but I don’t feel that way.  I think questions are faith seeking a deeper understanding.  That said, there are some things that are not meant for us to know.  I dont know why.  One thing people tend to get hung up on is why would God create a world knowing we would fall and give in to the temptation brought upon us and why would he even place the snake there in the first place?  Maybe because a world with snakes ie dangers, temptations, struggles, is a better world all things considered.  Otherwise what’s the point in even being awake if there is nothing to contend with or overcome?


That is a solid post. 
For the sake of discussion people have to assume that a god is involved for it to work though.
I am not being disrespectful or antagonistic. Once a god is proven, then the why's can be hashed out.
I can appreciate your thought into that answer though.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 13, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> There are people here who live to mock Christians through their narcissistic belief that they know what is and what is not.  1eyefishing is not one of those people.


I think that would apply to almost any subject you can think of whether it be Rs vs Ds, trophy hunters vs meat hunters, catch & release vs catch & fry, Christians vs Muslim and on and on and on.


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## NCHillbilly (Mar 13, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> There are people here who live to mock Christians through their narcissistic belief that they know what is and what is not.  1eyefishing is not one of those people.


I am a person who does not pretend to know what is what with religion. I believe there is a higher power. I don't believe any organized religion has a handle on understanding it. It is my nature to question the status quo on many things, religion among them. I grew up being told that this was the absolute way that God worked, based solely on a collection of ancient books that sometimes directly contradict each other and themselves. After I grew up, I realized that if God exists, God is probably not understandable by me or any other human. I can respect anyone's sincere religious beliefs within reason, or lack thereof; as long as they also respect mine without me having to believe the exact same thing they do.


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## Danuwoa (Mar 13, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I am a person who does not pretend to know what is what with religion. I believe there is a higher power. I don't believe any organized religion has a handle on understanding it. It is my nature to question the status quo on many things, religion among them. I grew up being told that this was the absolute way that God worked, based solely on a collection of ancient books that sometimes directly contradict each other and themselves. After I grew up, I realized that if God exists, God is probably not understandable by me or any other human. I can respect anyone's sincere religious beliefs within reason, or lack thereof; as long as they also respect mine without me having to believe the exact same thing they do.


I’m assuming this is just sort of a general statement as we have had this discussion before and I know your background.  I never try to push my stuff on you as I like and respect you more than that and it just ain’t my style.  I’ve got the snakes in my own heart to deal with.  Not going to bother anybody about theirs.


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## Danuwoa (Mar 13, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> I think that would apply to almost any subject you can think of whether it be Rs vs Ds, trophy hunters vs meat hunters, catch & release vs catch & fry, Christians vs Muslim and on and on and on.


I don’t disagree but there are those who only get their hackles up about Christians.  And that’s their right.  But they don’t need to say anything to anybody about open mindedness or critical thinking.


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## Danuwoa (Mar 13, 2022)

bullethead said:


> That is a solid post.
> For the sake of discussion people have to assume that a god is involved for it to work though.
> I am not being disrespectful or antagonistic. Once a god is proven, then the why's can be hashed out.
> I can appreciate your thought into that answer though.


God will never be proven on this side of life.  I accepted that a long time ago.  I can’t prove my wife loves me.  She might be a good actor who stays with me for other reasons.  But I trust that she does.  I’m not an atheist for a lot of reasons but one of the chief reasons is because I can’t accept the atheistic position that there is no ultimate justice and thus child molesters get the same fate as you and me.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 13, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I don’t disagree but there are those who only get their hackles up about Christians.  And that’s their right.  But they don’t need to say anything to anybody about open mindedness or critical thinking.


I can agree with that.
However Im also of the opinion that open mindedness and critical thinking are only "part time" qualities any way. At some point most folks make up their mind about what they think about something and no longer critically think about it or are willing to be open minded about it any more.
Otherwise nobody would feel strongly about anything.

But I do agree there can be rabid Atheists (and rabid Christians) whose only joy in life seems to be to ridicule the other.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 13, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> God will never be proven on this side of life.  I accepted that a long time ago.  I can’t prove my wife loves me.  She might be a good actor who stays with me for other reasons.  But I trust that she does.  I’m not an atheist for a lot of reasons but one of the chief reasons is because I can’t accept the atheistic position that there is no ultimate justice and thus child molesters get the same fate as you and me.





> I can’t accept the atheistic position that there is no ultimate justice and thus child molesters get the same fate as you and me.


Thats ^ really interesting.
One of the things most nonbelievers question is the supposed ability to be forgiven as long as you say "Sorry God, I'll go repent now".


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## NCHillbilly (Mar 13, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> I can agree with that.
> However Im also of the opinion that open mindedness and critical thinking are only "part time" qualities any way. At some point most folks make up their mind about what they think about something and no longer critically think about it or are willing to be open minded about it any more.
> Otherwise nobody would feel strongly about anything.
> 
> But I do agree there can be rabid Atheists (and rabid Christians) whose only joy in life seems to be to ridicule the other.


We are mostly creatures who are fueled by confirmation bias.


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## Danuwoa (Mar 13, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Thats ^ really interesting.
> One of the things most nonbelievers question is the supposed ability to be forgiven as long as you say "Sorry God, I'll go repent now".


It can’t be empty words used as a get out of jail free.  It has to be heart felt and followed by action.


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## Danuwoa (Mar 13, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> I can agree with that.
> However Im also of the opinion that open mindedness and critical thinking are only "part time" qualities any way. At some point most folks make up their mind about what they think about something and no longer critically think about it or are willing to be open minded about it any more.
> Otherwise nobody would feel strongly about anything.
> 
> But I do agree there can be rabid Atheists (and rabid Christians) whose only joy in life seems to be to ridicule the other.


Yeah I don’t disagree with that.

Those people are actually anti religion.  They think they’re atheists.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 13, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> It can’t be empty words used as a get out of jail free.  It has to be heart felt and followed by action.


And what does the child molestation victim get out of that?
The molester gets forgiven and potentially his/her ticket to Heaven.
God gets his repent follower.
The victim gets..... victimized. Twice.


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## Spotlite (Mar 13, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Thats ^ really interesting.
> One of the things most nonbelievers question is the supposed ability to be forgiven as long as you say "Sorry God, I'll go repent now".


It’s more than saying “sorry I’ll go repent now”

A lot more involved coupled with reaping what you sow - in short, some bad is coming to you even though your crime can be forgiven.


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## Danuwoa (Mar 13, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> And what does the child molestation victim get out of that?
> The molester gets forgiven and potentially his/her ticket to Heaven.
> God gets his repent follower.
> The victim gets..... victimized. Twice.


This why I don’t care to discuss things with you.  I knew we would get here.  You want me to be God’s lawyer.  The honest answer is that I don’t know.  But belief in nothing and a nihilistic outlook of total randomness and meaningless doesn’t seem like a particularly useful alternative to whatever shortcomings you see in my beliefs.  I don’t see how the atheists are offering something better.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 13, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> This why I don’t care to discuss things with you.  I knew we would get here.  You want me to be God’s lawyer.  The honest answer is that I don’t know.  But belief in nothing and a nihilistic outlook of total randomness and meaningless doesn’t seem like a particularly useful alternative to whatever shortcomings you see in my beliefs.  I don’t see how the atheists are offering something better.


Apparently you didnt like the question. It was an honest question that I cant answer from a Christian point of view. So I asked a Christian and gave my viewpoint on it.
"I dont know" is just fine.


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## Danuwoa (Mar 13, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Apparently you didnt like the question. It was an honest question that I cant answer from a Christian point of view. So I asked a Christian and gave my viewpoint on it.
> "I dont know" is just fine.


It wasn’t the question it was the catty attitude that I’ve come to expect.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 13, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> It’s more than saying “sorry I’ll go repent now”
> 
> A lot more involved coupled with reaping what you sow - in short, some bad is coming to you even though your crime can be forgiven.


So basically forgiving doesnt necessarily meant forgetting and you may be punished in other ways?


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## WaltL1 (Mar 13, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> It wasn’t the question it was the catty attitude that I’ve come to expect.


I gave you the way it appears to me and asked how it appears to you.
Take it however you want to.


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## Danuwoa (Mar 13, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> I gave you the way it appears to me and asked how it appears to you.
> Take it however you want to.


As if you’re giving me permission.  I bet you’re fun at parties.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 13, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> As if you’re giving me permission.  I bet you’re fun at parties.


Ok.


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## Danuwoa (Mar 13, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Ok.


?


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## bullethead (Mar 13, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> God will never be proven on this side of life.  I accepted that a long time ago.  I can’t prove my wife loves me.  She might be a good actor who stays with me for other reasons.  But I trust that she does.  I’m not an atheist for a lot of reasons but one of the chief reasons is because I can’t accept the atheistic position that there is no ultimate justice and thus child molesters get the same fate as you and me.


I can respect that. One reason I held on to beliefs for so long was because of similar thoughts. Ultimately I conceded to myself that I wanted there to be a god to punish those that I couldn't and my beliefs were guided by my hopes more than what I could find as factual. It's all a matter of individual lines in the sand it seems.


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## Danuwoa (Mar 13, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I can respect that. One reason I held on to beliefs for so long was because of similar thoughts. Ultimately I conceded to myself that I wanted there to be a god to punish those that I couldn't and my beliefs were guided by my hopes more than what I could find as factual. It's all a matter of individual lines in the sand it seems.


I don’t deny there is some of that.  I’m talking about myself but in others too.


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## bullethead (Mar 13, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Thats ^ really interesting.
> One of the things most nonbelievers question is the supposed ability to be forgiven as long as you say "Sorry God, I'll go repent now".


That is what I thought was so unfair about the system. 
A nonbeliever may be punished for eternity even though they led a good life and treated others well, but  true menace to society gets through the gates on their deathbed when they declare acceptance of God and ask for forgiveness. 
It never sat right with me.


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## ky55 (Mar 13, 2022)

bullethead said:


> That is what I thought was so unfair about the system.
> A nonbeliever may be punished for eternity even though they led a good life and treated others well, but  true menace to society gets through the gates on their deathbed when they declare acceptance of God and ask for forgiveness.
> It never sat right with me.



Yep,
here’s a good example:

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSN0842299020061211


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## WaltL1 (Mar 13, 2022)

ky55 said:


> Yep,
> here’s a good example:
> 
> https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSN0842299020061211





> The man who did kill Dahmer, Christopher Scarver, was a convicted murder and diagnosed psychopath who later said God had told him to carry our Dahmer's slaying.


Apparently God wasnt too impressed with Jefferys's conversion.


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## ky55 (Mar 13, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Apparently God wasnt too impressed with Jefferys's conversion.



Yep, 
either that, or He had an opening in the choir.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 13, 2022)

bullethead said:


> That is what I thought was so unfair about the system.
> A nonbeliever may be punished for eternity even though they led a good life and treated others well, but  true menace to society gets through the gates on their deathbed when they declare acceptance of God and ask for forgiveness.
> It never sat right with me.


I cant help but think the dudes who made this stuff up really had their priorities screwed up.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 13, 2022)

ky55 said:


> Yep,
> either that, or He had an opening in the choir.



Oh you are gonna pay for that one.


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## ky55 (Mar 13, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> I cant help but think the dudes who made this stuff up really had their priorities screwed up.



They knew exactly what they were doing. Look how long the system has worked.


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## Spotlite (Mar 13, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> So basically forgiving doesnt necessarily meant forgetting and you may be punished in other ways?



Forgiven means you’re no longer “in the sin” of that thing, but it doesn’t erase reaping what you sow. 

You can’t sow wild oats on Saturday night and pray for a crop failure Sunday at the alter.


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## ky55 (Mar 13, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Oh you are gonna pay for that one.




Yep.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 13, 2022)

ky55 said:


> They knew exactly what they were doing. Look how long the system has worked.


They werent stupid thats for sure. They make Dr. Phil look like an amature.


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## Spotlite (Mar 13, 2022)

bullethead said:


> That is what I thought was so unfair about the system.
> A nonbeliever may be punished for eternity even though they led a good life and treated others well, but  true menace to society gets through the gates on their deathbed when they declare acceptance of God and ask for forgiveness.
> It never sat right with me.


I’m not so sure that’s accurate. (Not saying you’re wrong, I am saying I think they’re wrong with their thinking) 

But I’m the odd ball and don’t follow suit with the majority of “anything goes” and “I got it made cause I said I believe in God” either.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 13, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Forgiven means you’re no longer “in the sin” of that thing, but it doesn’t erase reaping what you sow.
> 
> You can’t sow wild oats on Saturday night and pray for a crop failure Sunday at the alter.


Now thats a very clever analogy that even I can understand!


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## NCHillbilly (Mar 13, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Forgiven means you’re no longer “in the sin” of that thing, but it doesn’t erase reaping what you sow.
> 
> You can’t sow wild oats on Saturday night and pray for a crop failure Sunday at the alter.


OK, you're Charles Manson. You spend your whole life being an evil murderer and manipulator of teenage runaways. Later in life you realize, "hey, that's not right." You repent of your sins, get saved, and sincerely are repentant and lead a perfect Christian life until you die. Do you go to heaven? I was told so.

OK, you're Charles Muncie. You are a good guy. You treat your wife and kids and parents well, you are a model of a pillar of the community. You never intentionally hurt anyone. You also never accept Jesus as your lord and personal savior. You are not a practicing Christian, and don't go to church. You die. Do you go to He!!? I was told so.


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## bullethead (Mar 13, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I’m not so sure that’s accurate. (Not saying you’re wrong, I am saying I think they’re wrong with their thinking)
> 
> But I’m the odd ball and don’t follow suit with the majority of “anything goes” and “I got it made cause I said I believe in God” either.


I base it off of the last minute death bed conversions of former agnostics and atheists which are often used as examples by the pro religious organizations and people.
I wonder if it is just an empty promise to get a last minute conversion out of a dying person especially if on a deathbed the dying person has no time to show the change?
Is it a bait and switch?


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## ky55 (Mar 13, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> OK, you're Charles Manson. You spend your whole life being an evil murderer and manipulator of teenage runaways. Later in life you realize, "hey, that's not right." You repent of your sins, get saved, and sincerely are repentant and lead a perfect Christian life until you die. Do you go to heaven? I was told so.
> 
> OK, you're Charles Muncie. You are a good guy. You treat your wife and kids and parents well, you are a model of a pillar of the community. You never intentionally hurt anyone. You also never accept Jesus as your lord and personal savior. You are not a practicing Christian, and don't go to church. You die. Do you go to He!!? I was told so.


 
Bingo.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 13, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> OK, you're Charles Manson. You spend your whole life being an evil murderer and manipulator of teenage runaways. Later in life you realize, "hey, that's not right." You repent of your sins, get saved, and sincerely are repentant and lead a perfect Christian life until you die. Do you go to heaven? I was told so.
> 
> OK, you're Charles Muncie. You are a good guy. You treat your wife and kids and parents well, you are a model of a pillar of the community. You never intentionally hurt anyone. You also never accept Jesus as your lord and personal savior. You are not a practicing Christian, and don't go to church. You die. Do you go to He!!? I was told so.


Thats my understanding ^.
I cant say it was the Bible that says that or any Priest taught me that but its what I have come to understand from various conversations with Christians.


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## Spotlite (Mar 13, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> OK, you're Charles Manson. You spend your whole life being an evil murderer and manipulator of teenage runaways. Later in life you realize, "hey, that's not right." You repent of your sins, get saved, and sincerely are repentant and lead a perfect Christian life until you die. Do you go to heaven? I was told so.
> 
> OK, you're Charles Muncie. You are a good guy. You treat your wife and kids and parents well, you are a model of a pillar of the community. You never intentionally hurt anyone. You also never accept Jesus as your lord and personal savior. You are not a practicing Christian, and don't go to church. You die. Do you go to He!!? I was told so.


Ok I’m not in a disagreement.

In the first scenario you repent and lead a Christian life. In the second there’s no repentance.

Just because you’re forgiven of your transgression doesn’t mean there isn’t any collateral damage.

A man rapes a woman, he can be forgiven. But a baby is on the way.

Where is it that one sin is greater than another? The preacher cheating on his taxes is no better than Charles Manson in a unforgiven state.


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## bullethead (Mar 13, 2022)




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## bullethead (Mar 13, 2022)

Wasn't there a story in the bible about a criminal who converted last minute and was promised Heaven?


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 13, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I am a person who does not pretend to know what is what with religion. I believe there is a higher power. I don't believe any organized religion has a handle on understanding it. It is my nature to question the status quo on many things, religion among them. I grew up being told that this was the absolute way that God worked, based solely on a collection of ancient books that sometimes directly contradict each other and themselves. After I grew up, I realized that if God exists, God is probably not understandable by me or any other human. I can respect anyone's sincere religious beliefs within reason, or lack thereof; as long as they also respect mine without me having to believe the exact same thing they do.



interest take on it! Many organized religions seem to try to put god in a box, to codify and formalize their idea of god, which of course matches their culture in general. 
And because nothing about their god can be disproved (cannot be seen, touched or examined) if their religion gains traction it gains credibility and power. That's just human nature - millions of customers can't be wrong, can they? And once a few generations pass, the religion becomes ingrained further into the culture. If your grandparents and parents believe in it and tell you it's true, it must be. Your family wouldn't lie to you, would they?


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## NCHillbilly (Mar 13, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Ok I’m not in a disagreement.
> 
> In the first scenario you repent and lead a Christian life. In the second there’s no repentance.
> 
> ...


The second guy in my scenario lived a good life and never did anyone any harm. Why should he have to repent by default, or he goes to eternal suffering and torment, when the first person spent most of his life intentionally harming others, got off on a technicality,  and gets to lay around drinking milk and honey for eternity?  We won't even mention Charles Mujibar who grew up in India and was assured all his life by people he trusted that if he didn't follow the commands of Vishnu, he was not living right. He goes to eternal suffering and torment, too. Your God sounds more Manson than Muncie or Mujibar in this scenario. Looks like he (God) has some sins on his hands he needs to repent for, but it doesn't work that way. He is condemning people to burn and suffer for eternity, even though they were good people, just because they didn't suck up to him.


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## Danuwoa (Mar 13, 2022)

bullethead said:


> That is what I thought was so unfair about the system.
> A nonbeliever may be punished for eternity even though they led a good life and treated others well, but  true menace to society gets through the gates on their deathbed when they declare acceptance of God and ask for forgiveness.
> It never sat right with me.


That is not easy for me to understand either.  You do bring up something else.  What does it mean to live a good life?  Do I believe some nonbelievers do?  Certainly.  I believe many don’t but think they do.


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## NCHillbilly (Mar 13, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> That is not easy for me to understand either.  You do bring up something else.  What does it mean to live a good life?  Do I believe some nonbelievers do?  Certainly.  I believe many don’t but think they do.


What about the preacher who spends his life telling others how to live, but also molests teenage girls, sleeps with his congregation members' wives, and picks up hookers? Don't say it doesn't happen, because I have seen it more than once. He repents and goes to heaven. Some guy in his community who never did any of that kind of stuff and never harmed anybody goes to Hades because he didn't answer this preacher's altar call?


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## Danuwoa (Mar 13, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> What about the preacher who spends his life telling others how to live, but also molests teenage girls, sleeps with his congregation members' wives, and picks up hookers? Don't say it doesn't happen, because I have seen it more than once. He repents and goes to heaven. Some guy in his community who never did any of that kind of stuff and never harmed anybody goes to Hades because he didn't answer this preacher's altar call?


You’re picking fights that aren’t even there.  I realize you have a major bee in your bonnet about this topic. I don’t judge you for it and don’t even blame you based on things you’ve told me.  But I don’t know why you’re even asking me this when you know that I dont think preachers are any better than anybody else.  I do t even particularly care for most preachers.  So I don’t know where the “dont say it doesn’t happen.” part came from.

A couple of things, first you keep talking about some hypothetical nonbeliever who in your words has never harmed anybody.  That person does not exist whether he is a believer or not.  I’ve harmed plenty of people in my life.  Physically in some cases but more often in the words of a guy we both like “sometimes the words I used were as hard as my fists.”  We all harm people. More often than not it’s what comes out of our mouths.  And I’m at the head of the list.   Is you might say, “That’s not as bad as cheating g on your wife, raping somebody…”. and I would agree.   But God doesn’t.  Evil is evil in his eyes and he hates it all.  I struggle with this and I have no good answers where this is concerned.


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## Danuwoa (Mar 13, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Wasn't there a story in the bible about a criminal who converted last minute and was promised Heaven?


Yes.  I don’t know why we have an issue with the idea that unless you follow all the rules you’re gonna burn.


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## NCHillbilly (Mar 13, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> You’re picking fights that aren’t even there.  I realize you have a major bee in your bonnet about this topic. I don’t judge you for it and don’t even blame you based on things you’ve told me.  But I don’t know why you’re even asking me this when you know that I dont think preachers are any better than anybody else.  I do t even particularly care for most preachers.  So I don’t know where the “dont say it doesn’t happen.” part came from.
> 
> A couple of things, first you keep talking about some hypothetical nonbeliever who in your words has never harmed anybody.  That person does not exist whether he is a believer or not.  I’ve harmed plenty of people in my life.  Physically in some cases but more often in the words of a guy we both like “sometimes the words I used were as hard as my fists.”  We all harm people. More often than not it’s what comes out of our mouths.  And I’m at the head of the list.   Is you might say, “That’s not as bad as cheating g on your wife, raping somebody…”. and I would agree.   It God doesn’t.  Evil is evil in his eyes and he hates it all.  I struggle with this and I have no good answers where this is concerned.


Brother, I know plenty of non-believing folks who were called sinners by the good church-going folk in the community, never harmed a soul in their life and lived much better lives than a lot of so-called preachers I know. This isn't a personal question to you, btw, it's just me questioning the system as it exists. Specifically, the you go to he!! by default part of it. You didn't write the Bible, nor do you go around trying to tell folks how to live. You just try to do what you think is right for you. I sincerely respect your faith, and believe that you are sincere in it. I have no bees in my bonnet, nor am I picking fights. I just have questions about what I've been told all my life by folks who buy the status quo hook, line, and sinker. I know someone pretty well who has much the same attitude about everything besides religion.

I don't even own a bonnet, for that matter. I had a swarm of yallerjackets run up my britches leg once, that wasn't fun.


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## bullethead (Mar 13, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> That is not easy for me to understand either.  You do bring up something else.  What does it mean to live a good life?  Do I believe some nonbelievers do?  Certainly.  I believe many don’t but think they do.


Sure, agreed 100%
I think that can be said for many of the Pro and Con.
I used to be procrastinate going to church and be furious during the service and especially after.
Too many Sunday morning Christians in there dressed nice, smiling, Arm and Arm with the Wife and kids nodding at the sermons and knees down hands folded in prayer. Unfortunately 6.5 other days in the week one quarter of the congregation is sleeping with other, lots of gossiping,backstabbing, shady deals, corrupt business, snotty ill mannered kids, people who don't acknowledge others unless cornered  and on and on and on.
I get that in the eyes of Christianity that people are inherently sinful and just cannot live a sinless life. Those that acknowledge their misdeeds and strive to not repeat them are A-Ok in my book....believers or not. But there are just too many that act however they want and show up on Sundays to erase the board. I don't want to spend eternity with anyone no matter how good they are unless I have lots of space to avoid 99.9% of them and I have absolutely desire to be in same realm with the phonies for another million years beyond forever.


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## brutally honest (Mar 13, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I know plenty of non-believing folks who were called sinners by the good church-going folk in the community, never harmed a soul in their life and lived much better lives than a lot of so-called preachers I know.



… but even believers are not saved on that basis.  We are saved by grace through faith — not because of works we do.  (Eph 2:8-9)


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## Danuwoa (Mar 13, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Brother, I know plenty of non-believing folks who never harmed a soul in their life and lived better lives than a lot of so-called preachers I know. This isn't a personal question to you, btw, it's just me questioning the system as it exists. Specifically, the you go to he!! by default part of it. You didn't write the Bible, nor do you go around trying to tell folks how to live. I respect your faith, and believe that you are sincere in it. I have no bees in my bonnet, nor am I picking fights. I just have questions about what I've been told all my life. I don't even own a bonnet, for that matter. I had a swarm of yallerjackets run up my britches leg once, that wasn't fun.


I don’t understand it.  That’s the honest answer.  And there are no preachers that I know of to go to with some of these questions.  Most would just give me a political answer and the ones you would t do that would probably tell me me they dont really know either.

The bee in the bonnet remark was in reference to the way that I know you feel about religion and about Protestant Christianity in particular.  Especially our Southern brand.  I understand why you feel as you do and have felt that way myself.  Some time I’ll tell you a story about a conversation between me and a Pakistani soldier somewhere in the desert about this very subject but this is not the time for that.  I guess to me things have taken a bit of a sarcastic tone with statements like “Your God sounds more like Charlie Manson…” and whatnot.  I’m not interested in some sort of squabble.  And there are no people who have never harmed anybody.  They don’t exist.  I’m not an example.  Plenty of people here could say I’m in no position to be any sort of spokesman for Jesus due to my own behavior and they would be right.  I’m a black hearted sinner who has done some really bad things.  Thank the Lord he doesn’t keep a checklist with me only allowed a certain number of infractions.  Otherwise I would be toast.


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## Danuwoa (Mar 13, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Sure, agreed 100%
> I think that can be said for many of the Pro and Con.
> I used to be procrastinate going to church and be furious during the service and especially after.
> Too many Sunday morning Christians in there dressed nice, smiling, Arm and Arm with the Wife and kids nodding at the sermons and knees down hands folded in prayer. Unfortunately 6.5 other days in the week one quarter of the congregation is sleeping with other, lots of gossiping,backstabbing, shady deals, corrupt business, snotty ill mannered kids, people who don't acknowledge others unless cornered  and on and on and on.
> I get that in the eyes of Christianity that people are inherently sinful and just cannot live a sinless life. Those that acknowledge their misdeeds and strive to not repeat them are A-Ok in my book....believers or not. But there are just too many that act however they want and show up on Sundays to erase the board. I don't want to spend eternity with anyone no matter how good they are unless I have lots of space to avoid 99.9% of them and I have absolutely desire to be in same realm with the phonies for another million years beyond forever.


. I agree.  And God sees their hearts and isn’t fooled by the smiling and church attendance.  He knows their hearts.  I drink.  I cuss.  I have a horrible temper.  I say mean things to people.  I’ve been a terrible son in a many respects.  A horrible brother.  And, and this one hurts me the worst, a bad father in some ways.  Thank Jesus I don’t have to earn my way in.


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## bullethead (Mar 13, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> . I agree.  And God sees their hearts and isn’t fooled by the smiling and church attendance.  He knows their hearts.  I drink.  I cuss.  I have a horrible temper.  I say mean things to people.  I’ve been a terrible son in a many respects.  A horrible brother.  And, and this one hurts me the worst, a bad father in some ways.  Thank Jesus I don’t have to earn my way in.


?


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## ky55 (Mar 13, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Sure, agreed 100%
> I think that can be said for many of the Pro and Con.
> I used to be procrastinate going to church and be furious during the service and especially after.
> Too many Sunday morning Christians in there dressed nice, smiling, Arm and Arm with the Wife and kids nodding at the sermons and knees down hands folded in prayer. Unfortunately 6.5 other days in the week one quarter of the congregation is sleeping with other, lots of gossiping,backstabbing, shady deals, corrupt business, snotty ill mannered kids, people who don't acknowledge others unless cornered  and on and on and on.
> I get that in the eyes of Christianity that people are inherently sinful and just cannot live a sinless life. Those that acknowledge their misdeeds and strive to not repeat them are A-Ok in my book....believers or not. But there are just too many that act however they want and show up on Sundays to erase the board. I don't want to spend eternity with anyone no matter how good they are unless I have lots of space to avoid 99.9% of them and I have absolutely desire to be in same realm with the phonies for another million years beyond forever.



Personally, I can tolerate all of the gossiping, lying, cheating, and immoral and indecent behaviors of the folks who sit on the front row and drop the big checks into the collection plate on Sunday morning. I can just write it off and walk away. 

But if there’s one thing that I cannot tolerate it’s a Baptist who won’t speak to me in the liquor store.


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## NCHillbilly (Mar 13, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> . I agree.  And God sees their hearts and isn’t fooled by the smiling and church attendance.  He knows their hearts.  I drink.  I cuss.  I have a horrible temper.  I say mean things to people.  I’ve been a terrible son in a many respects.  A horrible brother.  And, and this one hurts me the worst, a bad father in some ways.  Thank Jesus I don’t have to earn my way in.


And, if you weren't a good person, you wouldn't rate yourself as worse than you really are. If God created you, you are behaving as he programmed you to. And I've spent enough time around you that I think you are a good person, by any measure of the scale. You are a better person than I consider myself to be.


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## bullethead (Mar 13, 2022)

ky55 said:


> Personally, I can tolerate all of the gossiping, lying, cheating, and immoral and indecent behaviors of the folks who sit on the front row and drop the big checks into the collection plate on Sunday morning. I can just write it off and walk away.
> 
> But if there’s one thing that I cannot tolerate it’s a Baptist who won’t speak to me in the liquor store.


???


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## gemcgrew (Mar 13, 2022)

ky55 said:


> Personally, I can tolerate all of the gossiping, lying, cheating, and immoral and indecent behaviors of the folks who sit on the front row and drop the big checks into the collection plate on Sunday morning. I can just write it off and walk away.
> 
> But if there’s one thing that I cannot tolerate it’s a Baptist who won’t speak to me in the liquor store.


"Mildred, the church gossip and self-appointed monitor of the church’s morals, kept sticking her nose into other people’s business. Several members did not approve of her extra-curricular activities, but feared her enough to maintain their silence.
She made a mistake however when she accused new member George of being an alcoholic after she saw his old truck parked in front of the town’s only bar one afternoon.
She emphatically told George, and several others, that everyone seeing it there would know what he was doing. George, a man of few words, stared at her for a moment and just turned and walked away. He didn’t explain, defend, or deny. He said nothing.
Later that evening, George quietly parked his truck in front of Mildred’s house… and he left it there all night." ~ Author Unknown


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## Danuwoa (Mar 13, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> And, if you weren't a good person, you wouldn't rate yourself as worse than you really are. If God created you, you are behaving as he programmed you to. And I've spent enough time around you that I think you are a good person, by any measure of the scale. You are a better person than I consider myself to be.


Well that means a lot.  But I am definitely not a better person than you.  I don’t like a lot of people and I like you.  All I want from people is authenticity and honesty.  I don’t have to agree with everything they say.  As far as I know you’ve never said an untrue thing to me and you don’t try to act like something you’re not for good or for bad.  I like that.


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## Danuwoa (Mar 13, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> "Mildred, the church gossip and self-appointed monitor of the church’s morals, kept sticking her nose into other people’s business. Several members did not approve of her extra-curricular activities, but feared her enough to maintain their silence.
> She made a mistake however when she accused new member George of being an alcoholic after she saw his old truck parked in front of the town’s only bar one afternoon.
> She emphatically told George, and several others, that everyone seeing it there would know what he was doing. George, a man of few words, stared at her for a moment and just turned and walked away. He didn’t explain, defend, or deny. He said nothing.
> Later that evening, George quietly parked his truck in front of Mildred’s house… and he left it there all night." ~ Author Unknown


????


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## buckpasser (Mar 13, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> The second guy in my scenario lived a good life and never did anyone any harm. Why should he have to repent by default, or he goes to eternal suffering and torment, when the first person spent most of his life intentionally harming others, got off on a technicality,  and gets to lay around drinking milk and honey for eternity?  We won't even mention Charles Mujibar who grew up in India and was assured all his life by people he trusted that if he didn't follow the commands of Vishnu, he was not living right. He goes to eternal suffering and torment, too. Your God sounds more Manson than Muncie or Mujibar in this scenario. Looks like he (God) has some sins on his hands he needs to repent for, but it doesn't work that way. He is condemning people to burn and suffer for eternity, even though they were good people, just because they didn't suck up to him.



I believe God to be the only qualified judge. There’s no point predicting what or how he’ll judge, and no friend of mine, Christian or not would take pleasure in anyone being judged guilty at the end of this life. What matters is that no one is without sin, even Charles Perfectenshlage.  Of our own fallen nature we’re all just various degrees of imperfect.  I think you’d agree with me on that.  There really aren’t any “good people” IMO. Just people.


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## ky55 (Mar 13, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> "Mildred, the church gossip and self-appointed monitor of the church’s morals, kept sticking her nose into other people’s business. Several members did not approve of her extra-curricular activities, but feared her enough to maintain their silence.
> She made a mistake however when she accused new member George of being an alcoholic after she saw his old truck parked in front of the town’s only bar one afternoon.
> She emphatically told George, and several others, that everyone seeing it there would know what he was doing. George, a man of few words, stared at her for a moment and just turned and walked away. He didn’t explain, defend, or deny. He said nothing.
> Later that evening, George quietly parked his truck in front of Mildred’s house… and he left it there all night." ~ Author Unknown



Poor Mildred.


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## NCHillbilly (Mar 13, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I believe God to be the only qualified judge. There’s no point predicting what or how he’ll judge, and no friend of mine, Christian or not would take pleasure in anyone being judged guilty at the end of this life. What matters is that no one is without sin, even Charles Perfectenshlage.  Of our own fallen nature we’re all just various degrees of imperfect.  I think you’d agree with me on that.  There really aren’t any “good people” IMO. Just people.


That is the crux of my question. If you are a Christian, you believe that God created you how he wanted you to be. Why did he make you sinful and fallen instead of good, then casts you into He!! for behaving exactly as he designed and created you to? Doesn't seem too fair.


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## Danuwoa (Mar 13, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> That is the crux of my question. If you are a Christian, you believe that God created you how he wanted you to be. Why did he make you sinful and fallen instead of good, then casts you into He!! for behaving exactly as he designed and created you to? Doesn't seem too fair.


But it is fair.  We have a choice to accept or deny him. All we have to do is accept him.  We dont have to be perfect.  Jesus’ response when he was a boy and the Pharisee approached him and tried to trip him up is instructive.  I believe that all I can do is accept on faith that Jesus is who he says he is and what is written about him is truth.  From there I can only live as much like him as I am able, try to always tell the truth, love my neighbor as best I can, show God’s love to others in a way that is not showy and self glorifying, earnestly ask forgiveness for my sins, and trust that is enough.  That’s all I can do.  That’s all anybody can do.


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## brutally honest (Mar 13, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> That is the crux of my question. If you are a Christian, you believe that God created you how he wanted you to be. Why did he make you sinful and fallen instead of good, then casts you into He!! for behaving exactly as he designed and created you to? Doesn't seem too fair.



Adam and Eve were not made “fallen”.  They fell after having been made in God’s image.


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## Spotlite (Mar 13, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> The second guy in my scenario lived a good life and never did anyone any harm. Why should he have to repent by default, or he goes to eternal suffering and torment, when the first person spent most of his life intentionally harming others, got off on a technicality,  and gets to lay around drinking milk and honey for eternity?  We won't even mention Charles Mujibar who grew up in India and was assured all his life by people he trusted that if he didn't follow the commands of Vishnu, he was not living right. He goes to eternal suffering and torment, too. Your God sounds more Manson than Muncie or Mujibar in this scenario. Looks like he (God) has some sins on his hands he needs to repent for, but it doesn't work that way. He is condemning people to burn and suffer for eternity, even though they were good people, just because they didn't suck up to him.


I can’t clear up any heart burn or disagreement or dislikes you may have about my God concerning “why” God does what He does. I can only rely on scripture that says all men should come unto repentance. I’m not told that some sins are ok. The story says we’re all born into sin, either believe it or not but that’s the story. If it’s a fairy tail then treat it as such - I don’t believe the Easter bunny lays eggs but I don’t see any need in wondering why one egg has money it and the rest didn’t - so it’s not fair to all those hunting just as good. The story is written.


While I can agree that a good man is a good man, I just remind myself I’m not the judge. I don’t put myself in that role ever.


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## buckpasser (Mar 13, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> That is the crux of my question. If you are a Christian, you believe that God created you how he wanted you to be. Why did he make you sinful and fallen instead of good, then casts you into He!! for behaving exactly as he designed and created you to? Doesn't seem too fair.



I don’t believe he created me the way he wanted me to be. I believe he created me to be however I wanted to be (minus some very obvious limitations).  I don’t think He’d cast me into he11 for being what I am, only not submitting to Him.  I mean, yeah, I wish some things weren’t instinctively bred into us. I wish my nature and yours were more naturally perfect, but that is what Christ conquered for me, no matter how flawed I am, and I am.


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## Spotlite (Mar 13, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> What about the preacher who spends his life telling others how to live, but also molests teenage girls, sleeps with his congregation members' wives, and picks up hookers? Don't say it doesn't happen, because I have seen it more than once. He repents and goes to heaven. Some guy in his community who never did any of that kind of stuff and never harmed anybody goes to Hades because he didn't answer this preacher's altar call?


I usually stop with the easy one - the fat preacher condemning smoking while making his 5th round at the buffet. But who said he goes to heaven? Who’s the only two beings that know where that man really stands behind closed doors when no one else is around?

You know buffet means “bunch us fat folks eating together”


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## bullethead (Mar 13, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> "Mildred, the church gossip and self-appointed monitor of the church’s morals, kept sticking her nose into other people’s business. Several members did not approve of her extra-curricular activities, but feared her enough to maintain their silence.
> She made a mistake however when she accused new member George of being an alcoholic after she saw his old truck parked in front of the town’s only bar one afternoon.
> She emphatically told George, and several others, that everyone seeing it there would know what he was doing. George, a man of few words, stared at her for a moment and just turned and walked away. He didn’t explain, defend, or deny. He said nothing.
> Later that evening, George quietly parked his truck in front of Mildred’s house… and he left it there all night." ~ Author Unknown


Quality


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## bullethead (Mar 13, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Adam and Eve were not made “fallen”.  They fell after having been made in God’s image.


Everyone should have that chance A&E had at the start and not start out punished for A&E's deeds.


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## brutally honest (Mar 13, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Everyone should have that chance A&E had at the start and not start out punished for A&E's deeds.



I asked my doctor once, "How do I avoid kidney stones?"  He answered, "First of all, you need to pick the right parents."

I asked another doctor, "Why is my cholesterol high?"  He answered, "You picked the wrong parents."

Moral of the story:  we can't pick our parents, physically or spiritually.  We're stuck with them. 

Physically, we can mitigate what our parents pass on to us through diet, exercise, or medicine.  Spiritually, God's grace will suffice.


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## 1eyefishing (Mar 13, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> I asked my doctor once, "How do I avoid kidney stones?"  He answered, "First of all, you need to pick the right parents."
> 
> I asked another doctor, "Why is my cholesterol high?"  He answered, "You picked the wrong parents."
> 
> ...




So back to my original question...
In God's omnipotence,  he didn't  care to keep us in his image or couldn't  foresee what was to come ?
It just makes me question these characteristics.


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## bullethead (Mar 13, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> I asked my doctor once, "How do I avoid kidney stones?"  He answered, "First of all, you need to pick the right parents."
> 
> I asked another doctor, "Why is my cholesterol high?"  He answered, "You picked the wrong parents."
> 
> ...


I understand that point from a Christian perspective. It doesn't add up Spiritually for me because it isn't factual Historically or Scientifically  regarding Adam and Eve..
Because I find fault in Biblical stories I cannot trust the Bible as a whole or be a part of religion.


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## buckpasser (Mar 13, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I understand that point from a Christian perspective. It doesn't add up Spiritually for me because it isn't factual Historically or Scientifically  regarding Adam and Eve..
> Because I find fault in Biblical stories I cannot trust the Bible as a whole or be a part of religion.



How often is the Bible, Christianity, or God on your mind would you say?  How often?


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## buckpasser (Mar 13, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> So back to my original question...
> In God's omnipotence,  he didn't  care to keep us in his image or couldn't  foresee what was to come ?
> It just makes me question these characteristics.



I can’t speak for God, but back to my first post in this thread, what good or value could robots bring in worship?  I say none. I say free will provides the only valuable form of worship available.


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## bullethead (Mar 13, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> How often is the Bible, Christianity, or God on your mind would you say?  How often?


Pretty much when something is brought up on television or family/friends bring it up.....or there is discussion in here.


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## bullethead (Mar 13, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I can’t speak for God, but back to my first post in this thread, what good or value could robots bring in worship?  I say none. I say free will provides the only valuable form of worship available.


Sincere question:
Would you punish your children for telling them that it is up to them to make their own choices when they made ones that were different than what you wanted?


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## buckpasser (Mar 13, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Sincere question:
> Would you punish your children for telling them that it is up to them to make their own choices when they made ones that were different than what you wanted?




If I’m understanding your question, no. I might very well be disappointed, but if I gave them free choice I wouldn’t punish them for making whatever decisions they made.


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## bullethead (Mar 13, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> If I’m understanding your question, no. I might very well be disappointed, but if I gave them free choice I wouldn’t punish them for making whatever decisions they made.


I cannot reconcile why a God would be any different than you and I in that regard. If we are made in a likeness I would think that would mean physically and mentally. If morals come from God why would his differ from ours?


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## buckpasser (Mar 13, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I cannot reconcile why a God would be any different you and I in that regard.



Well, first off, my children are no more my creation than the Boykin spaniel sleeping by my chair right now. They are just in my charge. I don’t seek their worship, though I do hope to love them and be loved by them.  God hasn’t created you or me to punish us for our choices or faults.  If you don’t feel His call, or sense the need to acknowledge Him, and you are at peace, then go in peace.  That is not my personal position, and I don’t really believe you can be at peace and in denial simultaneously.  If you’d do me this one favor, I’d appreciate it. Would you be willing to open your mind to the possibility of God and consider praying to Him just once?  I’ll pray for and/or with you if you’d like. It would cost you zero (except a few hours or days of consideration) and if you feel nothing or sense nothing, we can just go on like we are.  If that’s offensive, I don’t mean it to be.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 13, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I cannot reconcile why a God would be any different than you and I in that regard. If we are made in a likeness I would think that would mean physically and mentally. If morals come from God why would his differ from ours?



The morals are not really that different. What do I mean by this? 
"let he who has google, google!" In other words, research "violent and cruel things god has done or encouraged in the bible" and hang on for a wild ride.


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## bullethead (Mar 13, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Well, first off, my children are no more my creation than the Boykin spaniel sleeping by my chair right now. They are just in my charge. I don’t seek their worship, though I do hope to love them and be loved by them.  God hasn’t created you or me to punish us for our choices or faults.  If you don’t feel His call, or sense the need to acknowledge Him, and you are at peace, then go in peace.  That is not my personal position, and I don’t really believe you can be at peace and in denial simultaneously.  If you’d do me this one favor, I’d appreciate it. Would you be willing to open your mind to the possibility of God and consider praying to Him just once?  I’ll pray for and/or with you if you’d like. It would cost you zero (except a few hours or days of consideration) and if you feel nothing or sense nothing, we can just go on like we are.  If that’s offensive, I don’t mean it to be.


I know your children were not poofed into existence.  I am pretty sure you were at least 50% responsible for their creation.
Why does a God seek worship?
I was baptized Catholic and Confirmed Protestant. I attended Sunday School  Church, Bible School, Retreats, Church Functions, was an Alter Boy was married by a priest and 3 sons attended Catholic School. During the majority of those years I was dedicated to Christianity religious studies. Respectfully,  I have done my fair share of praying. I have read the Bible multiple times and have referenced it numerous thousands of times which continue. I have stated my willingness to have a god reach me in the precise way that I would be sure to know it is 100% unquestionably real AND a god would surely know what that way is even more so than I would. If a god knows my heart...contact, revelation, and or a drop kick from the Holy Spirit would have happened long ago. Praying now won't change anything. 
If, Predestination is true then I am serving my purpose as designed.
Or another possibility is that nobody or nothing is listening or cares if it is or that I would be able to understand a being as complex as something that is god.


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## brutally honest (Mar 13, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> So back to my original question...
> In God's omnipotence,  he didn't  care to keep us in his image or couldn't  foresee what was to come ?



I believe in free will, so I believe He knew what A&E would do and provided the solution in Jesus.


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## brutally honest (Mar 13, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I understand that point from a Christian perspective. It doesn't add up Spiritually for me because it isn't factual Historically or Scientifically  regarding Adam and Eve..
> Because I find fault in Biblical stories I cannot trust the Bible as a whole or be a part of religion.



OK, but all I can give you is a Christian perspective.


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## bullethead (Mar 13, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> The morals are not really that different. What do I mean by this?
> "let he who has google, google!" In other words, research "violent and cruel things god has done or encouraged in the bible" and hang on for a wild ride.


Well, I try to slowly lead up to a point sometimes and let develop through discussion of different thinking.
But it does seem that gods are .ade in mans image throughout such stories.


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## buckpasser (Mar 13, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I know your children were not poofed into existence.  I am pretty sure you were at least 50% responsible for their creation.
> Why does a God seek worship?
> I was baptized Catholic and Confirmed Protestant. I attended Sunday School  Church, Bible School, Retreats, Church Functions, was an Alter Boy was married by a priest and 3 sons attended Catholic School. During the majority of those years I was dedicated to Christianity religious studies. Respectfully,  I have done my fair share of praying. I have read the Bible multiple times and have referenced it numerous thousands of times which continue. I have stated my willingness to have a god reach me in the precise way that I would be sure to know it is 100% unquestionably real AND a god would surely know what that way is even more so than I would. If a god knows my heart...contact, revelation, and or a drop kick from the Holy Spirit would have happened long ago. Praying now won't change anything.
> If, Predestination is true then I am serving my purpose as designed.
> Or another possibility is that nobody or nothing is listening or cares if it is or that I would be able to understand a being as complex as something that is god.




So, that’s a no, but it doesn’t seem like you’re able to go in peace to me.


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## bullethead (Mar 13, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> OK, but all I can give you is a Christian perspective.


Often the Christian perspective (or any religion's perspective can be inserted) does not acknowledge Historical, Archeological and Scientific findings. Instead , often, the religious suspend those things which they rely on daily for everything else.


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## bullethead (Mar 13, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> So, that’s a no, but it doesn’t seem like you’re able to go in peace to me.


Peace? My peace or yours?


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## ky55 (Mar 13, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Peace? My peace or yours?



?

Stand by for the correct answer.


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## bullethead (Mar 13, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> So, that’s a no, but it doesn’t seem like you’re able to go in peace to me.


You have to understand that it isnt a spiteful "no". It is a realistic "no thank you".
I have been there, done that and have the t-shirts.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
If your god is half of what you think and it wants me to know it then as god it will know how to contact me.


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## ky55 (Mar 13, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> So, that’s a no, but it doesn’t seem like you’re able to go in peace to me.


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## Spotlite (Mar 13, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I know your children were not poofed into existence.  I am pretty sure you were at least 50% responsible for their creation.
> Why does a God seek worship?
> I was baptized Catholic and Confirmed Protestant. I attended Sunday School  Church, Bible School, Retreats, Church Functions, was an Alter Boy was married by a priest and 3 sons attended Catholic School. During the majority of those years I was dedicated to Christianity religious studies. Respectfully,  I have done my fair share of praying. I have read the Bible multiple times and have referenced it numerous thousands of times which continue. I have stated my willingness to have a god reach me in the precise way that I would be sure to know it is 100% unquestionably real AND a god would surely know what that way is even more so than I would. If a god knows my heart...contact, revelation, and or a drop kick from the Holy Spirit would have happened long ago. Praying now won't change anything.
> If, Predestination is true then I am serving my purpose as designed.
> Or another possibility is that nobody or nothing is listening or cares if it is or that I would be able to understand a being as complex as something that is god.



Gotta admire your efforts. It takes time and work to dig into everything researching. I know some A/A’s that are A/A only because their Daddy was.


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## bullethead (Mar 13, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> So, that’s a no, but it doesn’t seem like you’re able to go in peace to me.


I get the feeling that you feel sorrow for me. You think I am unable be at rest that I am in some sort of denial. 
I have not found nor can cannot think of anything that I am lacking in my life that I would suddenly gain by praying to something that I do not think exists.

Would you pray to another god if someone asked you to? Just to give it a try because they are convinced you have it wrong and could do better????


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## buckpasser (Mar 13, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Peace? My peace or yours?



Yours


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## buckpasser (Mar 13, 2022)

ky55 said:


>



It’s good to be able to brighten your evening. Laughter is good for the soul, or so they say.


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## buckpasser (Mar 13, 2022)

bullethead said:


> You have to understand that it isnt a spiteful "no". It is a realistic "no thank you".
> I have been there, done that and have the t-shirts.
> The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
> If your god is half of what you think and it wants me to know it then as god it will know how to contact me.




Some of that is true. The “it”s and tone of this post keeps me thinking you lack peace though. 

Besides that, free will absolutely gives you an ability to keep the door shut and dead bolt locked no matter who knocks. If you really are open minded the door needs to at least be tended to if you hear a knock.


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## bullethead (Mar 13, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Gotta admire your efforts. It takes time and work to dig into everything researching. I know some A/A’s that are A/A only because their Daddy was.


I am not bragging or patting myself on the back, just giving some background. I have talked to Pastors and Priests to the points where their progression started at scripture, went to apologetic answers and then to where the answers ceased and being told I should pray. I honored their requests to pray with them. I cannot see the point of doing something now which never worked before and didn't work when the representatives were present either. I set out to learn a much as possible on my own and as you well know the more I read the bible, the more I studied the history of the religion the more I tried to match claims with facts the farther away I got.


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## bullethead (Mar 13, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Yours


What is unpeaceful about me? What am I lacking?


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## Spotlite (Mar 13, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I get the feeling that you feel sorrow for me. You think I am unable be at rest that I am in some sort of denial.
> I have not found nor can cannot think of anything that I am lacking in my life that I would suddenly gain by praying to something that I do not think exists.
> 
> Would you pray to another god if someone asked you to? Just to give it a try because they are convinced you have it wrong and could do better????





> Would you pray to another god if someone asked you to? Just to give it a try because they are convinced you have it wrong and could do better????


That’s the part that most of us Christians struggle with. For us it’s “just do it, just open up”. We feel that it works and feel that with an open mind, it could work for you, too.

But, put that shoe on our foot and tell us to pray to the Indians Sun god, “it works, try it, have an open, unbiased mind”…………one will understand that it’s harder / sillier to do than it sounds.


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## bullethead (Mar 13, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Some of that is true. The “it”s and tone of this post keeps me thinking you lack peace though.
> 
> Besides that, free will absolutely gives you an ability to keep the door shut and dead bolt locked no matter who knocks. If you really are open minded the door needs to at least be tended to if you hear a knock.


I've explained to you that I open to contact from a god. I have been consistent for many years expressing my willingness to be open for god, gods, dead relatives, aliens, spooks, specters, saints and haints to come pay me a visit. I have shared a few unexplainable experiences I've had in my life but in no way will I automatically assign an explanation to something without being sure that what happened was more likely than not something very specific to a specific entity.


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## buckpasser (Mar 13, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> That’s the part that most of us Christians struggle with. For us it’s “just do it, just open up”. We feel that it works and feel that with an open mind, it could work for you, too.
> 
> But, put that shoe on our foot and tell us to pray to the Indians Sun god, “it works, try it, have an open, unbiased mind”…………one will understand that it’s harder to do than it sounds.




I’d like to think if I doubted or “knew” there was no God, yet spent time in places like this, seemingly to read and type opinions, sure. I’d give it a try. I’d see if there was anything to the Indian sun god or whatever. What would there be to lose?  It’s not like I’d be offending the God you or I serve if I didn’t think I was created by Him. What’s there to lose besides a minute amount of time?


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## buckpasser (Mar 13, 2022)

bullethead said:


> What is unpeaceful about me? What am I lacking?



You tell me. If you say there’s nothing, we can end our conversation about it.


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## bullethead (Mar 13, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> That’s the part that most of us Christians struggle with. For us it’s “just do it, just open up”. We feel that it works and feel that with an open mind, it could work for you, too.
> 
> But, put that shoe on our foot and tell us to pray to the Indians Sun god, “it works, try it, have an open, unbiased mind”…………one will understand that it’s harder to do than it sounds.


What I hear from being told to pray, open up etc etc is:
"If you can only suspend what you have found to be reality and has gotten you good fortune in life and has kept you alive and well, Look past the things in the Bible that are wrong, contradict, and and cause a person to question their validity,  and believe everything else...you'll be able be where I am at"
When in reality we are both happy, successful, good people, model citizens, faithful husbands, great dads, and content for different reasons. Possibly the reasons are the same but what individuals attribute them to differs.


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## Spotlite (Mar 13, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I’d like to think if I doubted or “knew” there was no God, yet spent time in places like this, seemingly to read and type opinions, sure. I’d give it a try. I’d see if there was anything to the Indian sun god or whatever. What would there be to lose?  It’s not like I’d be offending the God you or I serve if I didn’t think I was created by Him. What’s there to lose besides a minute amount of time?


While I can agree, most A/A’s here have a former Christian background, some even have part of their families still attending.

In short, it’d be like telling you to go back and try the Indian Sun god again after you tried it a few times.

And, agnostics have a small window there if God is revealed to them where they know it’s God, they’d be on board.


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## Spotlite (Mar 13, 2022)

bullethead said:


> What I hear from being told to pray, open up etc etc is:
> "If you can only suspend what you have found to be reality and has gotten you good fortune in life and has kept you alive and well, Look past the things in the Bible that are wrong, contradict, and and cause a person to question their validity,  and believe everything else...you'll be able be where I am at"
> When in reality we are both happy, successful, good people, model citizens, faithful husbands, great dads, and content for different reasons. Possibly the reasons are the same but what individuals attribute them to differs.


Yup. Can’t tell you how many times I heard that non believers are “the devil”. I’ve never met a non believer that fit that description.


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## bullethead (Mar 13, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> You tell me. If you say there’s nothing, we can end our conversation about it.


I didn't know there was anything missing in my life until you told me.


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## buckpasser (Mar 13, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I didn't know there was anything missing in my life until you told me.



So, there’s nothing missing?


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## bullethead (Mar 13, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I’d like to think if I doubted or “knew” there was no God, yet spent time in places like this, seemingly to read and type opinions, sure. I’d give it a try. I’d see if there was anything to the Indian sun god or whatever. What would there be to lose?  It’s not like I’d be offending the God you or I serve if I didn’t think I was created by Him. What’s there to lose besides a minute amount of time?


So why are you here?
To discuss, give an alternate perspective and convince people who already believe in your god or do that with others who dont?
If I wasn't here what else would you be doing?
7 +Billion people on the planet and you are spending time with me yet questioning it also.


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## bullethead (Mar 13, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> So, there’s nothing missing?


Barrett .50
Can always use more powder and primers.
With $100,000,000 I would donate large portions to Wounded Warriors, Childrens Hospitals so it could last in perpetuity.
But the main thing is to find some hunting land if I am being selfish.

Been with the same woman since we are 15 and 16.
Raised 3 now grown men.
Ran 2 business over 34 years.
Never did a drug, smoked a cigarette or had a cup of coffee.
But according to some I'll burn for eternity for that.

So actual NEEDS, Sunblock with a Million SPF I guess.


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## ky55 (Mar 14, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> It’s good to be able to brighten your evening. Laughter is good for the soul, or so they say.



And I appreciate your effort!
Any time I see somebody evaluate and diagnose the spiritual needs of a total stranger on an Internet forum, and then offer to intercede on that stranger’s behalf with the creator of the universe, with no request from the stranger…..
Yes, I must admit that I laugh out loud.


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## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

ky55 said:


> And I appreciate your effort!
> Any time I see somebody evaluate and diagnose the spiritual needs of a total stranger on an Internet forum, and then offer to intercede on that stranger’s behalf with the creator of the universe, with no request from the stranger…..
> Yes, I must admit that I laugh out loud.


I do believe their heart is in the right place. I admire their willingness to share what works for them.
But like everybody I know that ever lost weight suddenly become experts on diets and their willingness to interject it into a conversation is strong.
Most end up heavier than they were a year later.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 14, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I’d like to think if I doubted or “knew” there was no God, yet spent time in places like this, seemingly to read and type opinions, sure. I’d give it a try. I’d see if there was anything to the Indian sun god or whatever. What would there be to lose?  It’s not like I’d be offending the God you or I serve if I didn’t think I was created by Him. What’s there to lose besides a minute amount of time?





> I’d give it a try. I’d see if there was anything to the Indian sun god or whatever.


Most of us have spent multi decades "giving it a try". Its not like we dont have any experience on this subject and are just shooting from the hip.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 14, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Some of that is true. The “it”s and tone of this post keeps me thinking you lack peace though.
> 
> Besides that, free will absolutely gives you an ability to keep the door shut and dead bolt locked no matter who knocks. If you really are open minded the door needs to at least be tended to if you hear a knock.


Sorry, I couldnt resist  -


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 14, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Gotta admire your efforts. It takes time and work to dig into everything researching. I know some A/A’s that are A/A only because their Daddy was.


Reminds me of this boy who the preacher asked if he was a Christian. It turned out that was his last name. The boy said I reckon I am, my Daddy is.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Been with the same woman since we are 15 and 16.
> Raised 3 now grown men.
> Ran 2 business over 34 years.
> Never did a drug, smoked a cigarette or had a cup of coffee.


Congrats



bullethead said:


> But according to some I'll burn for eternity for that.


Jesus never had a kind word for them.


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## Baroque Brass (Mar 14, 2022)

This has been a great thread. Though I don’t think we’ve plowed up any new ground, we’ve at least heard the perspectives of some different folks. 

From all of this, I’m reminded of a couple points I’d like to bring up. The first is regarding resurrection. I’m always confused on this one because when one dies, Christians will say he’s in a better place now or she’s gone to live with Jesus. But when speaking of the second coming, all the graves of the righteous will burst open and the dead will be resurrected. So at what point does the deceased go to heaven? At the moment of death or when Jesus returns?

The second concerns prayer, and I’ve asked this one before. If god is omniscient, doesn’t he already know our needs? Does he need to be reminded or convinced by more frequent prayer of by large groups praying? Why is it that when the sick recovers, it’s the healing power of prayer but when the prayed for dies, it’s the will of god. This also seems to be the case when prayers are answered. When it’s a positive outcome, god gets the glory but otherwise, it’s “we can’t understand god‘s ways”. 

When I was active in church, I prayed daily. I never prayed for material things or to win the lottery. My prayers were simple - a good night’s sleep after several sleepless nights or to do well when I played a solo in church. I’m a decent musician but I’ve always struggled with solos. I was asked to do a solo one morning and the rehearsal went well, I had confidence. As the moment approached, I prayed for calm nerves and a good outcome. I walked out, the piano started, and I was overcome with nervousness. The solo was ok, but not nearly as good as the rehearsal. So, I prayed for sleep, it didn’t happen. I prayed for a good solo to glorify god, it didn’t happen. So why pray?


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## buckpasser (Mar 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Barrett .50
> Can always use more powder and primers.
> With $100,000,000 I would donate large portions to Wounded Warriors, Childrens Hospitals so it could last in perpetuity.
> But the main thing is to find some hunting land if I am being selfish.
> ...




Maybe it’s just your personality, or maybe you’re trying to keep it light, but you just don’t seem to want to answer me. If you were to ask me if I was content, or felt like I’m missing anything in life, here’s my answer:

Yes, I’m content. No, I don’t feel like I’m missing anything.


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## buckpasser (Mar 14, 2022)

Baroque Brass said:


> This has been a great thread. Though I don’t think we’ve plowed up any new ground, we’ve at least heard the perspectives of some different folks.
> 
> From all of this, I’m reminded of a couple points I’d like to bring up. The first is regarding resurrection. I’m always confused on this one because when one dies, Christians will say he’s in a better place now or she’s gone to live with Jesus. But when speaking of the second coming, all the graves of the righteous will burst open and the dead will be resurrected. So at what point does the deceased go to heaven? At the moment of death or when Jesus returns?
> 
> ...




To your two questions, I’ll give the feeble answers of someone who only knows the Bible in a lowly personal kind of way, not as a scholar. 

Resurrection: Spirit and body.  Almost no bodies are to leave this world until the second coming. At the second coming the dead bodies, ash, soil, base elements that used to be those bodies will be called up. Sounds wild, and I realize most users of this subforum won’t believe it, but it’s where I’m at. 

Prayers: The Lord’s Prayer pretty much sums it up. Pray for God’s will to be done. It’s just another form of submission. We’re all gonna die. If prayer or faith could keep anyone here, the Apostles could be telling the laughing ones here all about it right now.  I’m sorry you didn’t receive supernatural ability to nail the solo. Maybe there was a lesson there?  Who knows?


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## NCHillbilly (Mar 14, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Adam and Eve were not made “fallen”.  They fell after having been made in God’s image.


So, if that is true, I take it God is susceptible to being convinced to do evil things by chance conversations with talking snakes?


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## Baroque Brass (Mar 14, 2022)

Actually, the solo didn’t require superhuman ability or even the ability of the likes of Wynton Marsalis. I have the ability as demonstrated by the rehearsal. I was overcome with nerves and that’s not good for a brass player. You have to have good breath support and that’s hard when you can’t breathe. It seemed a simple request to me.


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## Baroque Brass (Mar 14, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> To your two questions, I’ll give the feeble answers of someone who only knows the Bible in a lowly personal kind of way, not as a scholar.
> 
> Resurrection: Spirit and body.  Almost no bodies are to leave this world until the second coming. At the second coming the dead bodies, ash, soil, base elements that used to be those bodies will be called up. Sounds wild, and I realize most users of this subforum won’t believe it, but it’s where I’m at.
> 
> Prayers: The Lord’s Prayer pretty much sums it up. Pray for God’s will to be done. It’s just another form of submission. We’re all gonna die. If prayer or faith could keep anyone here, the Apostles could be telling the laughing ones here all about it right now.  I’m sorry you didn’t receive supernatural ability to nail the solo. Maybe there was a lesson there?  Who knows?


So god didn’t want me to get a good nights sleep or to play at least to my ability?


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## buckpasser (Mar 14, 2022)

Baroque Brass said:


> So god didn’t want me to get a good nights sleep or to play at least to my ability?



I can’t say, just as you can’t. Maybe there was something else He wanted your focus on?


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## 660griz (Mar 14, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Bullethead's zombie comments jogged my memory. Here's something really trippy in the New Testament that is rarely mentioned because Jesus is the focus of the resurrection (as it should be) so this tidbit gets passed by, but here we go:
> 
> when Jesus died on the cross "the curtain of the temple" was torn from the intensity of the world changing event. But when the curtain was torn many graves of dead saints were thrown open and the undead walked among the people and interacted with them!
> 
> ...


Easy peazy! The part about Jesus raising from the dead...totally literal. The part about all the other undead folks walking around...totally figurative. You aint reading it right.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 14, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> To your two questions, I’ll give the feeble answers of someone who only knows the Bible in a lowly personal kind of way, not as a scholar.
> 
> Resurrection: Spirit and body.  Almost no bodies are to leave this world until the second coming. At the second coming the dead bodies, ash, soil, base elements that used to be those bodies will be called up. Sounds wild, and I realize most users of this subforum won’t believe it, but it’s where I’m at.
> 
> Prayers: The Lord’s Prayer pretty much sums it up. Pray for God’s will to be done. It’s just another form of submission. We’re all gonna die. If prayer or faith could keep anyone here, the Apostles could be telling the laughing ones here all about it right now.  I’m sorry you didn’t receive supernatural ability to nail the solo. Maybe there was a lesson there?  Who knows?





> Resurrection: Spirit and body.  Almost no bodies are to leave this world until the second coming. At the second coming the dead bodies, ash, soil, base elements that used to be those bodies will be called up. Sounds wild, and I realize most users of this subforum won’t believe it, but it’s where I’m at.


So whats your thoughts on the often heard "They are in a better place now"?
Someplace inbetween death and Resurrection? Just a well meaning saying meant to provide comfort? Something else?


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## buckpasser (Mar 14, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> So whats your thoughts on the often heard "They are in a better place now"?
> Someplace inbetween death and Resurrection? Just a well meaning saying meant to provide comfort? Something else?



“Paradise”


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## buckpasser (Mar 14, 2022)

660griz said:


> Easy peazy! The part about Jesus raising from the dead...totally literal. The part about all the other undead folks walking around...totally figurative. You aint reading it right.



I’d say both literal.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 14, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> “Paradise”


Ok Im confused.
I read your beliefs as the spirit and body remain in the ground. Even to the point of base elements/decomposition until Resurrection. I understand Paradise to be Heaven.
Where does "they are in a better place now" fit into that?
And just in case - this isnt a trick question. Im trying to understand your viewpoint.


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## CarolinaDawg (Mar 14, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> Thx, Dan-o.
> At this exact moment I was just sitting here thinking about opening my next thread about 'from where the disdain?'
> It seems like you can't ask a question as a spiritually curious person without receiving condescension from people who believe that their beliefs make them better than you.
> Sometimes I think for some people That are strictly connected to the exact word of God are leaning on that framework as a support system that keeps them from being a really awful person (heathen savage). Maybe the way an alcoholic leans on AA  to keep himself from taking the one sip of beer which would lead into a sudden relapse as a complete alcoholic.
> ...


You aren’t going to like or accept the answer to your question, but there is only one answer.  That’s the problem with truth - there’s only one version.  As a Christian, I accept every single word of the Bible to be the perfect, infallible, inspired word of God. God’s attributes are revealed in His word, the follower’s personal relationship, and the shared experiences of other Christ followers. I can walk you through my life and show you how I have personally experienced God. I know his attributes because I know Him and accept His word. His love is greater than any other, he is sovereign, he is holy, he is just, he’s patient, and forgiving. He’s both glorious above all, and humble.  He rules and he serves.  
Both me and my wife are intelligent, well educated people. I don’t believe because my grandma told me to when I was a kid, or to gain the approval of other people.  I study science and have found nothing that contradicts what I understand of the Bible. Everything I learn confirms the absolute greatness of God. I see the great faith that it takes to accept the theories of  “historical science” as fact.  The hundreds of prophecies that have been fulfilled (to the day in many cases) and confirmed by secular historians and archeologists reinforce my faith.
If you truly study the Bible, science, history, and archeology, the evidence is all there. Those that refuse to accept have run a cost-benefit analysis (consciously or unconsciously) and believe they will have to give up something they don’t want to give up.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> You aren’t going to like or accept the answer to your question, but there is only one answer.  That’s the problem with truth - there’s only one version.  As a Christian, I accept every single word of the Bible to be the perfect, infallible, inspired word of God. God’s attributes are revealed in His word, the follower’s personal relationship, and the shared experiences of other Christ followers. I can walk you through my life and show you how I have personally experienced God. I know his attributes because I know Him and accept His word. His love is greater than any other, he is sovereign, he is holy, he is just, he’s patient, and forgiving. He’s both glorious above all, and humble.  He rules and he serves.
> Both me and my wife are intelligent, well educated people. I don’t believe because my grandma told me to when I was a kid, or to gain the approval of other people.  I study science and have found nothing that contradicts what I understand of the Bible. Everything I learn confirms the absolute greatness of God. I see the great faith that it takes to accept the theories of  “historical science” as fact.  The hundreds of prophecies that have been fulfilled (to the day in many cases) and confirmed by secular historians and archeologists reinforce my faith.
> If you truly study the Bible, science, history, and archeology, the evidence is all there. Those that refuse to accept have run a cost-benefit analysis (consciously or unconsciously) and believe they will have to give up something they don’t want to give up.





> Those that refuse to accept have run a cost-benefit analysis (consciously or unconsciously) and believe they will have to give up something they don’t want to give up.


Thats ^ where you went off the rails.
Heaven sounds like a pretty good place. Certainly worth whatever sacrifices you would have to make in life.
So much for your cost/benefit analysis.


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## brutally honest (Mar 14, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> So, if that is true, I take it God is susceptible to being convinced to do evil things by chance conversations with talking snakes?



No, it means that, given free will, men will do evil things.


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## CarolinaDawg (Mar 14, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> And what does the child molestation victim get out of that?
> The molester gets forgiven and potentially his/her ticket to Heaven.
> God gets his repent follower.
> The victim gets..... victimized. Twice.


That’s an inaccurate and unfair oversimplification skewed by your worldview. Every man and woman will sin. The world is cursed by it and sin yields consequences. Any and all who accept the blood shed by Jesus Christ as payment of their sin, repent, and follow him, will not be held accountable and will not be punished eternally.  They will still have to deal with the consequences in this life though. The pedofile can be saved and that’s a wonderful thing.  The only sin that can’t be forgiven is the rejection of Jesus aka blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. There is hope for EVERY person regardless of age, race, economic status, etc. The victim can be also be saved from his or her sin, can experience God at a deeper level than most, and have His love, support, and healing from the wounds. The pain will and struggle will still be there, but He can and will give victory and peace to the victim. This life is short. What is 80 years out of eternity? We would all choose a handful of years of great struggle if it was to gain eternity in paradise. Because we are all sinners, not one single person would ever look to God if everything was perfect. It’s not in our nature. God’s ultimate will is that none would perish, but that all would be with Him and experience His love forever. He knows that we need to face trials to both turn Him and to grow. Some people need to come to the absolute end of themselves to receive Him.  Unfortunately many never do.


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## CarolinaDawg (Mar 14, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Thats ^ where you went off the rails.
> Heaven sounds like a pretty good place. Certainly worth whatever sacrifices you would have to make in life.
> So much for your cost/benefit analysis.


That’s great to hear my friend. Knowing the benefit, have you accepted Christ as your savior?


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## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Maybe it’s just your personality, or maybe you’re trying to keep it light, but you just don’t seem to want to answer me. If you were to ask me if I was content, or felt like I’m missing anything in life, here’s my answer:
> 
> Yes, I’m content. No, I don’t feel like I’m missing anything.


If you have not put together that nothing is missing in my life from posts #227, #235 and #238 then I guess I have to literally spell it out for you.
Yes, I'm content. No there is nothing Missing.

Now, throughout our conversation I have asked you many questions rhat have gone unaddressed.
It is time for you to show the same courtesy that I have shown when I have not only answered all of yours but have included details so you can gain perspective rather than assume anything about me.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> You aren’t going to like or accept the answer to your question, but there is only one answer.  That’s the problem with truth - there’s only one version.  As a Christian, I accept every single word of the Bible to be the perfect, infallible, inspired word of God. God’s attributes are revealed in His word, the follower’s personal relationship, and the shared experiences of other Christ followers. I can walk you through my life and show you how I have personally experienced God. I know his attributes because I know Him and accept His word. His love is greater than any other, he is sovereign, he is holy, he is just, he’s patient, and forgiving. He’s both glorious above all, and humble.  He rules and he serves.
> Both me and my wife are intelligent, well educated people. I don’t believe because my grandma told me to when I was a kid, or to gain the approval of other people.  I study science and have found nothing that contradicts what I understand of the Bible. Everything I learn confirms the absolute greatness of God. I see the great faith that it takes to accept the theories of  “historical science” as fact.  The hundreds of prophecies that have been fulfilled (to the day in many cases) and confirmed by secular historians and archeologists reinforce my faith.
> If you truly study the Bible, science, history, and archeology, the evidence is all there. Those that refuse to accept have run a cost-benefit analysis (consciously or unconsciously) and believe they will have to give up something they don’t want to give up.


Would you care to start a new thread that deals with the Bible being 100% truthful and infallible so we can have you show us where we are missing the connection between many specific points?
We can talk about fulfilling prophesies there too.

I am interested in hearing your explanations and showing us the evidence that at least I have missed.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> That’s great to hear my friend. Knowing the benefit, have you accepted Christ as your savior?


No I havent.
While I believe a preacher we call Jesus existed, I dont believe he is the son of God and all the stories of him that comes out of organized religion.
Nor can I pretend to believe just to reap the benefits. I assume an omni - everything God would see I was just pretending.


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## NCHillbilly (Mar 14, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> No, it means that, given free will, men will do evil things.


OK, help me understand here. God created man in his likeness. Man is flawed and evil. God is perfect. That seems a major contradiction.


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## CarolinaDawg (Mar 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Would you care to start a new thread that deals with the Bible being 100% truthful and infallible so we can have you show us where we are missing the connection between many specific points?
> We can talk about fulfilling prophesies there too.
> 
> I am interested in hearing your explanations and showing us the evidence that at least I have missed.


I think that would lead to some great discussion and I’ll be glad to participate.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> That’s an inaccurate and unfair oversimplification skewed by your worldview. Every man and woman will sin. The world is cursed by it and sin yields consequences. Any and all who accept the blood shed by Jesus Christ as payment of their sin, repent, and follow him, will not be held accountable and will not be punished eternally.  They will still have to deal with the consequences in this life though. The pedofile can be saved and that’s a wonderful thing.  The only sin that can’t be forgiven is the rejection of Jesus aka blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. There is hope for EVERY person regardless of age, race, economic status, etc. The victim can be also be saved from his or her sin, can experience God at a deeper level than most, and have His love, support, and healing from the wounds. The pain will and struggle will still be there, but He can and will give victory and peace to the victim. This life is short. What is 80 years out of eternity? We would all choose a handful of years of great struggle if it was to gain eternity in paradise. Because we are all sinners, not one single person would ever look to God if everything was perfect. It’s not in our nature. God’s ultimate will is that none would perish, but that all would be with Him and experience His love forever. He knows that we need to face trials to both turn Him and to grow. Some people need to come to the absolute end of themselves to receive Him.  Unfortunately many never do.





> Any and all who accept the blood shed by Jesus Christ as payment of their sin, repent, and follow him, will not be held accountable and will not be punished eternally.


Yeah thats ^ my point.
There is a victim and a victimizer. The victimizer gets forgiven by showing allegiance to someone other than the victim. 
Sorry, but I personally find that pretty twisted.


----------



## CarolinaDawg (Mar 14, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> No I havent.
> While I believe a preacher we call Jesus existed, I dont believe he is the son of God and all the stories of him that comes out of organized religion.
> Nor can I pretend to believe just to reap the benefits. I assume an omni - everything God would see I was just pretending.


 You are correct. It has to be real.  I’m glad you accept that a man named Jesus Christ walked this earth. I think we can both agree that secular history confirms it.   If you had to only give one reason, what is the primary reason that you do accept that Jesus was and is God incarnate and that he made the ultimatum sacrifice for you?


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## CarolinaDawg (Mar 14, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Yeah thats ^ my point.
> There is a victim and a victimizer. The victimizer gets forgiven by showing allegiance to someone other than the victim.
> Sorry, but I personally find that pretty twisted.


Try reading through my explanation again. That’s the reason.  You and I currently have different world views. I see the fact that Jesus loves ALL of us enough that he stepped down from the glory of his throne in heaven and humbled himself to become a man with no earthly power, riches, or comfort and allowed those who he was doing it for to reject, mock, and torturously kill his body as a beautiful thing. The most beautiful thing. He did it for us all. That is the complete opposite of twisted.


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## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

Good and Evil as human thoughts, actions and concepts certainly exist.
For them to exist spiritually a god would have to have purposely not only created both but use both equally.

For Instance ,
A god wills 1 human into existence from clay and then realized (why would a god not already know this) he has to take a rib from the guy and make a woman from him so the guy isn't lonely.
God has made these 2 people as pure as pure can be but god has also made a wrench to throw into the works.
See before god made these people he was also running the most perfect place ever to have existed called Heaven. Only the good get to go there if they accept God's son...but I am getting ahead of myself as God's son has not been willed into existence for another couple thousand years.. Anywho, within this Heaven there is a grumpy Angel (who god create and who knows what he is doing at all times) and this grumpy Angel is jealous and rebels with some chronies so God, even knowing what bugger this guy is going to be all throughout religious history, evicts Lucifer out of Heaven and gives him his own realm.

Back to Adam and Eve...


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## WaltL1 (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> You are correct. It has to be real.  I’m glad you accept that a man named Jesus Christ walked this earth. I think we can both agree that secular history confirms it.   If you had to only give one reason, what is the primary reason that you do accept that Jesus was and is God incarnate and that he made the ultimatum sacrifice for you?





> I think we can both agree that secular history confirms it.


Not sure I would agree that history confirms it but yes I think there is enough evidence that I can accept it to be more than likely true that a Preacher we call Jesus existed.
As for the main reason I dont believe Jesus was God incarnate - I dont trust the word of organized religion.


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## 1eyefishing (Mar 14, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> No, it means that, given free will, men will do evil things.


Free will... so men have a choice to  make a decision independent of the one God knew they would make? 
Or God knew that would make the evil choice?


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## WaltL1 (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> Try reading through my explanation again. That’s the reason.  You and I currently have different world views. I see the fact that Jesus loves ALL of us enough that he stepped down from the glory of his throne in heaven and humbled himself to become a man with no earthly power, riches, or comfort and allowed those who he was doing it for to reject, mock, and torturously kill his body as a beautiful thing. The most beautiful thing. He did it for us all. That is the complete opposite of twisted.


Yes. To me there is a victim and a victimizer. I dont see any reason to bring Jesus into the equation. Making it about Jesus and not the victim is the part I find twisted.


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## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

Adam and Eve are frolicking around living the good life and the ONLY rule in the HOA is to not eat from the tree in the middle of the development. They are like yea sure no problem.
But, in thr bad section of town this fallen angel is up to his usual no good and he stops Eve on her daily walk to Paradise Springs Salon and convinces her that she really needs to eat from this tree and have Adam eat also. 
Because this fallen angel has done this, and because A&E went along with God is furious and not only punishes the two but curses every other human that comes along after them blaming things on evil and sin.
Now God knows everything. So God knew all this was going to happen because he put a clause in the legsl disclaimer that allows free will. But in the fine print it says *Free Will doesn't count all the time, only when it benefits God. Every other time Thou Shalt Be Punished.


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## CarolinaDawg (Mar 14, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> OK, help me understand here. God created man in his likeness. Man is flawed and evil. God is perfect. That seems a major contradiction.


Here’s the meaning of God created man in His image: The secular world believes everything happened by chance and that man is an animal.  God created both man and animal, but he only created man in His image, not animals. He breathed life into man, he created the animals.  That means man has a spirit that is eternal. God is spirit.   When animals die, they are just dead.  When the human’s body dies, the spirit goes on forever in heaven or ****.  
God is perfect, He created man and everything he created was good. He gave man freedom because he loves us and freedom is best. 
So, God created man in his own image giving us spirit, and the ability to think, reason, relate to him and without sin. Man and Satan messed that up.  In his infinite love for us, he humbled himself and stepped down from his throne in heaven to make the ultimate sacrifice in order fix what man and satan did.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Adam and Eve are frolicking around living the good life and the ONLY rule in the HOA is to not eat from the tree in the middle of the development. They are like yea sure no problem.
> But, in thr bad section of town this fallen angel is up to his usual no good and he stops Eve on her daily walk to Paradise Springs Salon and convinces her that she really needs to eat from this tree and have Adam eat also.
> Because this fallen angel has done this, and because A&E went along with God is furious and not only punishes the two but curses every other human that comes along after them blaming things on evil and sin.
> Now God knows everything. So God knew all this was going to happen because he put a clause in the legsl disclaimer that allows free will. But in the fine print it says *Free Will doesn't count all the time, only when it benefits God. Every other time Thou Shalt Be Punished.


I bet God would have alot more followers if organized religion didnt make up all these wacky stories.


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## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

Continuing on...
So God created a bad angel who he allows to continue to be bad.
God creates people who he knows will be turned bad by the bad angel.
God allows both to exist and is happy just punishing people for their misdeeds while letting the fallen angel continue on unpunished. 
Basically God created bad and allows bad to happen,  actually NEEDS bad to happen to keep the kids in line.

People who follow this god think all that is ok and makes sense.

People who do not follow this god think it sounds like human writings who had to interject a Cop Out narrative in order to have excuses as to explain the things that just do not make a lick of sense.


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## CarolinaDawg (Mar 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Adam and Eve are frolicking around living the good life and the ONLY rule in the HOA is to not eat from the tree in the middle of the development. They are like yea sure no problem.
> But, in thr bad section of town this fallen angel is up to his usual no good and he stops Eve on her daily walk to Paradise Springs Salon and convinces her that she really needs to eat from this tree and have Adam eat also.
> Because this fallen angel has done this, and because A&E went along with God is furious and not only punishes the two but curses every other human that comes along after them blaming things on evil and sin.
> Now God knows everything. So God knew all this was going to happen because he put a clause in the legsl disclaimer that allows free will. But in the fine print it says *Free Will doesn't count all the time, only when it benefits God. Every other time Thou Shalt Be Punished.


Sorry, I don’t follow any of this logic. It’s an inaccurate oversimplification.


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## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> I think that would lead to some great discussion and I’ll be glad to participate.


Then by all means, make a new title and open that puppy up


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## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> Sorry, I don’t follow any of this logic. It’s an inaccurate oversimplification.


Conversely,  I dont follow any of the Biblical logic as it is an embellished over complication.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> Here’s the meaning of God created man in His image: The secular world believes everything happened by chance and that man is an animal.  God created both man and animal, but he only created man in His image, not animals. He breathed life into man, he created the animals.  That means man has a spirit that is eternal. God is spirit.   When animals die, they are just dead.  When the human’s body dies, the spirit goes on forever in heaven or ****.
> God is perfect, He created man and everything he created was good. He gave man freedom because he loves us and freedom is best.
> So, God created man in his own image giving us spirit, and the ability to think, reason, relate to him and without sin. Man and Satan messed that up.  In his infinite love for us, he humbled himself and stepped down from his throne in heaven to make the ultimate sacrifice in order fix what man and satan did.





> He gave man freedom because he loves us and freedom is best.


Except the freedom to not believe in him without getting spanked. That would be a little too much freedom apparently.


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## CarolinaDawg (Mar 14, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> I bet God would have alot more followers if organized religion didnt make up all these wacky stories.


You are right. Satan is real and he hates God and man. He can’t stand the fact that man who was created lower than the angels, gets to wear the righteousness of Christ himself for eternity.  He does everything he can to
deceive and prevent men and women for receiving Christ.  He knows he cannot defeat church as it’s the body of Jesus. He deceived by taking the truth and adding just a little something extra or taking just a little bit away.  Man-made religion and man adding on to the truth of the Bible has done and is doing a lot to turn people away from the truth. It’s highly effective. Catholicism has done a tremendous amount of harm over centuries with all that men added on top of the truth of God’s word. The Pharisees did the same to the Jews.


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## Baroque Brass (Mar 14, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> So whats your thoughts on the often heard "They are in a better place now"?
> Someplace inbetween death and Resurrection? Just a well meaning saying meant to provide comfort? Something else?


I’ve thought for a long time it’s a well meaning saying meant to comfort the bereaved.


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## 1eyefishing (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> Here’s the meaning of God created man in His image: The secular world believes everything happened by chance and that man is an animal.  God created both man and animal, but he only created man in His image, not animals. He breathed life into man, he created the animals.  That means man has a spirit that is eternal. God is spirit.   When animals die, they are just dead.  When the human’s body dies, the spirit goes on forever in heaven or ****.
> God is perfect, He created man and everything he created was good. He gave man freedom because he loves us and freedom is best.
> So, God created man in his own image giving us spirit, and the ability to think, reason, relate to him and without sin. Man and Satan messed that up.  In his infinite love for us, he humbled himself and stepped down from his throne in heaven to make the ultimate sacrifice in order fix what man and satan did.




 To me, it seems that things are far from fixed.
 If he tried to fix them and didn't, he is not omnipotent.


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## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> You are right. Satan is real and he hates God and man. He can’t stand the fact that man who was created lower than the angels, gets to wear the righteousness of Christ himself for eternity.  He does everything he can to
> deceive and prevent men and women for receiving Christ.  He knows he cannot defeat church as it’s the body of Jesus. He deceived by taking the truth and adding just a little something extra or taking just a little bit away.  Man-made religion and man adding on to the truth of the Bible has done and is doing a lot to turn people away from the truth. It’s highly effective.


So god allowed, instructed and helped his people to destroy opposing armies and cultures that were against his people.
What is God's hold up on dealing with Satan? The way you put it, it sounds like God is incapable or unwilling to cease Satan's shenanigans once and for all. Why?


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## WaltL1 (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> You are right. Satan is real and he hates God and man. He can’t stand the fact that man who was created lower than the angels, gets to wear the righteousness of Christ himself for eternity.  He does everything he can to
> deceive and prevent men and women for receiving Christ.  He knows he cannot defeat church as it’s the body of Jesus. He deceived by taking the truth and adding just a little something extra or taking just a little bit away.  Man-made religion and man adding on to the truth of the Bible has done and is doing a lot to turn people away from the truth. It’s highly effective.


Where we differ, other than belief/disbelief, is I believe the Bible is also a product of organized religion where as I am assuming you believe the Bible is the literal word of God.
God could get me to believe in God.
Nothing man says, which includes the Bible, can get me to believe in God.


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## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> You are right. Satan is real and he hates God and man. He can’t stand the fact that man who was created lower than the angels, gets to wear the righteousness of Christ himself for eternity.  He does everything he can to
> deceive and prevent men and women for receiving Christ.  He knows he cannot defeat church as it’s the body of Jesus. He deceived by taking the truth and adding just a little something extra or taking just a little bit away.  Man-made religion and man adding on to the truth of the Bible has done and is doing a lot to turn people away from the truth. It’s highly effective. Catholicism has done a tremendous amount of harm over centuries with all that men added on top of the truth of God’s word. The Pharisees did the same to the Jews.


Why would god allow untrue versions of his Bible that full of man's and satan's input in circulation? Why doesn't he do an update?


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## CarolinaDawg (Mar 14, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Yes. To me there is a victim and a victimizer. I dont see any reason to bring Jesus into the equation. Making it about Jesus and not the victim is the part I find twisted.


I don’t have an answer that will please you here. Everything is about Jesus - everything.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> So god allowed, instructed and helped his people to destroy opposing armies and cultures that were against his people.
> What is God's hold up on dealing with Satan? The way you put it, it sounds like God is incapable or unwilling to cease Satan's shenanigans once and for all. Why?


You have to have a hero and a villian. People like that.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> I don’t have an answer that will please you here. Everything is about Jesus - everything.


I dont expect you to have an answer that pleases me.
We are just sharing our view points.


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## CarolinaDawg (Mar 14, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Where we differ, other than belief/disbelief, is I believe the Bible is also a product of organized religion where as I am assuming you believe the Bible is the literal word of God.
> God could get me to believe in God.
> Nothing man says, which includes the Bible, can get me to believe in God.


You are correct. Only the Holy Spirit can call you to Christ, not man. It is Christ that saves. It is the job of Christ followers to do the best we can to represent Jesus on earth. We are to speak the truth and do our best to live by it.  Our lives give you the ability to contrast life with Jesus against life without. You are here discussing/questioning/wrestling with Christianity because the Holy Spirit is working on you my friend.  It’s ultimately the individual’s responsibility to accept or reject.


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## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> I don’t have an answer that will please you here. Everything is about Jesus - everything.


Throughout the Bible God commanded that he be worshipped.
Did Jesus ever even ask to be worshipped even once?


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 14, 2022)

Baroque Brass said:


> I’ve thought for a long time it’s a well meaning saying meant to comfort the bereaved.


I just read your post back where you asked pretty much the same question. Sorry about that. Things move fast in here sometimes and I have to go back and catch up!


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## CarolinaDawg (Mar 14, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> You have to have a hero and a villian. People like that.


Satan’s punishment has begun and comes in phases. Satan has already been cast out of heaven and had his relationship with God ended (that’s pretty bad). He does not have the hope that we have in Christ. He’s been defeated and he knows the Bible.  He knows that God has set the day and time of him being throw into the lake of fire for the rest of eternity.  The world doesn’t revolve around us, it revolves around God. He is just and good and he has a purpose that is ultimately best for us all.  He’s working on His time, not ours.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> You are correct. Only the Holy Spirit can call you to Christ, not man. It is Christ that saves. It is the job of Christ followers to do the best we can to represent Jesus on earth. We are to speak the truth and do our best to live by it.  Our lives give you the ability to contrast life with Jesus against life without. You are here discussing/questioning/wrestling with Christianity because the Holy Spirit is working on you my friend.  It’s ultimately the individual’s responsibility to accept or reject.





> You are here discussing/questioning/wrestling with Christianity because the Holy Spirit is working on you my friend.


Maybe so. I spent alot of years as a believer. I would be lying if I said it was all completely gone.


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## CarolinaDawg (Mar 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Throughout the Bible God commanded that he be worshipped.
> Did Jesus ever even ask to be worshipped even once?


I’m not sure I understand what you’re implying with your question, but I’ll do my best.  I have not read where Jesus specifically commanded us to worship Him.  He lived a life worthy of our worship and he constantly referred to the recorded scriptures up until that period of time (Old Testament). He said that He did not come to take one word away from the Old Testament, but to fulfill it. So he confirms everything that is written in the Old Testament.   He is God and God has given us life, a chance at eternal life with him, the earth, our families, rain, food, our minds, and everything else you can think of up to every breath you breathe. He sacrificed himself for us. He is worthy of all our praise and worship and he himself has said so.


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## CarolinaDawg (Mar 14, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Maybe so. I spent alot of years as a believer. I would be lying if I said it was all completely gone.


May I ask what led to you falling away. I understand if you don’t want to share.


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## CarolinaDawg (Mar 14, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Except the freedom to not believe in him without getting spanked. That would be a little too much freedom apparently.


 We are not free from the consequences of sin/our actions. Remember, God is all loving and also holy and just.  Justice is a good thing and I’m thankful for it.  Would any of us choose to live in a country without justice? America was founded on Christian principles thank goodness. Take a moment and reflect on a world without the hope of justice. It’s a God-given gift.


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## CarolinaDawg (Mar 14, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> To me, it seems that things are far from fixed.
> If he tried to fix them and didn't, he is not omnipotent.


 The solution has been implemented.  Death and sin were defeated on the cross.  He wants all of us to receive the gift that has been given.  Eternity matters infinitely more than 60-80 years. The final judgement and remaking of heaven and earth is coming, but he is delaying in his mercy and love in order that as many as possible will be saved. Be thankful for that as you are included in that number. Today could be the day


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## CarolinaDawg (Mar 14, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> I dont expect you to have an answer that pleases me.
> We are just sharing our view points.


Agree. Thanks


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## NCHillbilly (Mar 14, 2022)

I think I accidentally stumbled into the athiests/agnostics/proselytizing missionaries forum. If I wanted to hear the same sermon over and over, I'd go to church.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Barrett .50
> Can always use more powder and primers.
> With $100,000,000 I would donate large portions to Wounded Warriors, Childrens Hospitals so it could last in perpetuity.
> But the main thing is to find some hunting land if I am being selfish.
> ...



WHOA! Back the train up. No coffee?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> I’m not sure I understand what you’re implying with your question, but I’ll do my best.  I have not read where Jesus specifically commanded us to worship Him.  He lived a life worthy of our worship and he constantly referred to the recorded scriptures up until that period of time (Old Testament). He said that He did not come to take one word away from the Old Testament, but to fulfill it. So he confirms everything that is written in the Old Testament.   He is God and God has given us life, a chance at eternal life with him, the earth, our families, rain, food, our minds, and everything else you can think of up to every breath you breathe. He sacrificed himself for us. He is worthy of all our praise and worship and he himself has said so.


Well that is your opinion regarding fulfillment of OT and leading a perfect life. Jesus was a preacher not a god is my opinion.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> WHOA! Back the train up. No coffee?


Never more than a dozen "you HAVE to try this" sips in 52yrs


----------



## oldfella1962 (Mar 14, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Sorry, I couldnt resist  -



this funny meme very much sums it up for me! Maybe it's the skeptic/cynic in me, but once the hot place is a factor it makes god's "love" coercive in nature. Am I wrong? Then again, maybe I'm looking at it from the primitive human mindset.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> If you have not put together that nothing is missing in my life from posts #227, #235 and #238 then I guess I have to literally spell it out for you.
> Yes, I'm content. No there is nothing Missing.
> 
> Now, throughout our conversation I have asked you many questions rhat have gone unaddressed.
> It is time for you to show the same courtesy that I have shown when I have not only answered all of yours but have included details so you can gain perspective rather than assume anything about me.




Thanks!  I haven’t knowingly been dodging any questions. I’ll go back when I have time and see what I’ve missed.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Mar 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Never more than a dozen "you HAVE to try this" sips in 52yrs



and none of the sips appealed to you? Did you try it with cream, sugar, artificial sweetener or other options? Black coffee is nasty IMHO but when I make it the way I like it,  it's the nectar of the gods (so to speak). I don't like Turkish coffee I will admit, nor espresso  if only because a dinky cup of coffee meant to be shot-gunned in a hurry during breakfast is heresy. Italy has it going on in many ways (literally HUNDREDS of pasta variations!)  but I can't get behind their breakfast habits.


----------



## 660griz (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> <snipped> Those that refuse to accept have run a cost-benefit analysis (consciously or unconsciously) and believe they will have to give up something they don’t want to give up.


Wow! If you mean logic, yea. I don't want to give that up. My only addiction is life. The only difference between being bad and not being a christian and being bad and being a christian is, if you are a christian, you can clear your conscious and be forgiven as many times as necessary.
I only do things that I can live with the consequences. No do-overs for me.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> and none of the sips appealed to you? Did you try it with cream, sugar, artificial sweetener or other options? Black coffee is nasty IMHO but when I make it the way I like it,  it's the nectar of the gods (so to speak). I don't like Turkish coffee I will admit, nor espresso  if only because a dinky cup of coffee meant to be shot-gunned in a hurry during breakfast is heresy. Italy has it going on in many ways (literally HUNDREDS of pasta variations!)  but I can't get behind their breakfast habits.


Tried many variations plus hot and cold, and while some tasted alright I have no desire to drink coffee.
If I want to taste French Toast with caramel id rather eat it than drink it.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> May I ask what led to you falling away. I understand if you don’t want to share.


Thats a hard question that is difficult to answer.
Interestingly, it wasnt "God" that I came to have a problem with. I was brought up Roman Catholic and the Priests themselves were all good men.
I came to disagree with all the hypocrisy in organized religion, what I was supposed to think about people of other religions or no religions, certain stories in the Bible I find repulsive etc. etc.
So at first I just rejected organized religion but still believed in God. Then I came to the realization that everything I knew about God came from organized religion. 
Then I basically came to stop believing in all of it.
So now I leave open the possibility of a God or gods, but wont/cant take mans word for it. And no I dont see the scientific, geographical, historical evidence the points to a god and certainly not any specific (G)god. Certain people, places or events, yes I can believe through evidence. (G)gods.... nope.
I dont have a problem with most Christians. Family, friends, the people who are closest to me are mostly all Christians. I really dont know any Atheists other than the few on this forum. Dont participate in any other religious forums than this one. Will be in the trenches with you should there be a fight to remove your right to worship while at the same time will fight against Christianity or any other religion being required in public schools etc.
So thats my attempt to answer that question.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 14, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> OK, help me understand here. God created man in his likeness. Man is flawed and evil. God is perfect. That seems a major contradiction.



Maybe God has the same free will that we all have but has unwaveringly stayed in perfection instead of wandering off into trouble as we have.  Where’s the contradiction?  What am I missing?


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Never more than a dozen "you HAVE to try this" sips in 52yrs


I had more than a dozen sips before the sun even came up this morning 
I gave up alcohol but coffee will be with me as long as Im breathing.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> So why are you here?
> To discuss, give an alternate perspective and convince people who already believe in your god or do that with others who dont?
> If I wasn't here what else would you be doing?
> 7 +Billion people on the planet and you are spending time with me yet questioning it also.



I guess I did miss this one, sorry. 

Truthfully, I like GON forum and sometimes just click on the lightning bolt symbol to see what’s “happening now”. This thread was active and I read through and felt compelled to join in. No real motive, but I love debate on almost any topic. Especially with respectful/respectable folks like you seem to be. The guy on the kayak seems a little more easy to make throw wild hay makers and get emotional, but sometimes that makes things here more entertaining too!  Haha


----------



## brutally honest (Mar 14, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> OK, help me understand here. God created man in his likeness. Man is flawed and evil. God is perfect. That seems a major contradiction.



Everything God created was good (Gen 1:31.)  Man chose to do evil.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 14, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Everything God created was good (Gen 1:31.)  Man chose to do evil.


If everything God created was good, how do you explain Satan, head lice, childhood cancer, tapeworms, F5 tornados, and liver flukes?

Again, you are debating with nothing to back up your argument except words in a book. I have a book that tells about Cthulhu. I doubt if it's all factual.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 14, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I guess I did miss this one, sorry.
> 
> Truthfully, I like GON forum and sometimes just click on the lightning bolt symbol to see what’s “happening now”. This thread was active and I read through and felt compelled to join in. No real motive, but I love debate on almost any topic. Especially with respectful/respectable folks like you seem to be. The guy on the kayak seems a little more easy to make throw wild hay makers and get emotional, but sometimes that makes things here more entertaining too!  Haha





> The guy on the kayak seems a little more easy to make throw wild hay makers and get emotional,


Me?
Boy have you got that backwards! Bullet is the one who is known to not pull any punches. Stick around, you'll see


----------



## brutally honest (Mar 14, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> If everything God created was good, how do you explain Satan, head lice, childhood cancer, tapeworms, F5 tornados, and liver flukes?



Satan was an angel who chose to do evil.  As for the rest, Eden seemed to be free of them all.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 14, 2022)

660griz said:


> Wow! If you mean logic, yea. I don't want to give that up. My only addiction is life. The only difference between being bad and not being a christian and being bad and being a christian is, if you are a christian, you can clear your conscious and be forgiven as many times as necessary.
> I only do things that I can live with the consequences. No do-overs for me.





> forgiven as many times as necessary.


I am not so sure it is meant this way^^^^ You don`t get to abuse it and do as you please over and over..........

First - one has to understand what repentance is, it means to turn away from the wrong you're doing, not keep meddling in it "cause you can". Some have fooled themselves into "cause I can".


----------



## brutally honest (Mar 14, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Again, you are debating with nothing to back up your argument except words in a book. I have a book that tells about Cthulhu. I doubt if it's all factual.



Books are powerful.  About a billion people worship Allah because of a book.  Much of the misery of the 20th century was because of Karl Marx’s book.


----------



## CarolinaDawg (Mar 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Well that is your opinion regarding fulfillment of OT and leading a perfect life. Jesus was a preacher not a god is my opinion.


Agree to disagree. This is not about my opinion vs yours. There is one and only truth. Everyone is accountable for their acceptance or denial of it.  If you believe in gravity or electricity and I don’t, leaving it at that doesn’t tell the whole story. You and I can have different opinions on the matter and others can just choose to never think about or discuss either.  The fact is gravity and electricity both exist not matter what anyone’s opinion is or if a tribe in the Congo  jungle is aware or not.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 14, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> this funny meme very much sums it up for me! Maybe it's the skeptic/cynic in me, but once the hot place is a factor it makes god's "love" coercive in nature. Am I wrong? Then again, maybe I'm looking at it from the primitive human mindset.


Its pretty dang accurate when you get right down to it.


----------



## 1eyefishing (Mar 14, 2022)

If he was omnipotent and all-knowi he would have known the choices that Adam-and-Eve would make and that he would banish them from before before he even made them.



CarolinaDawg said:


> Agree to disagree. This is not about my opinion vs yours. There is one and only truth. Everyone is accountable for their acceptance or denial of it.  If you believe in gravity or electricity and I don’t, leaving it at that doesn’t tell the whole story. You and I can have different opinions on the matter and others can just choose to never think about or discuss either.  The fact is gravity and electricity both exist not matter what anyone’s opinion is or if a tribe in the Congo  jungle is aware or not.



 There is one and only 1 truth? How do YOU know what it is?
 This is the topic of the OP. How do you know?
 Could be God turns out to be a chicken and you are the one that has been denying it all along.
 How do you know?


----------



## CarolinaDawg (Mar 14, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Satan was an angel who chose to do evil.  As for the rest, Eden seemed to be free of them all.


Satan was created “good” and with freedom because God is good and freedom is good. Even though Satan had all the evidence and experience of heaven and God, Satan wanted to worshiped above God. He sinned. He had the gift of freedom and he abused it. When God created the earth, it was good. There was no death, all animals ate plants, no diseases, no tornadoes, no weeds, no drought, no biting insects, etc.  Man had paradise on earth, the ability to literally walk with God and look upon his face and they had/have freedom.   They chose to believe a lie rather than the truth and place attempted to put themselves equal with God.  God is holy and just and gives us the gift of justice.  Therefore he cannot and will tolerate sin. It must be dealt with in order for justice to exist. All of the things you listed like tornados, etc are are consequence of sin. The good news is it’s not permanent. In the same breath God gave the punishment, he also gave the solution that he himself would be the ultimate sacrifice to undo what they did.


----------



## CarolinaDawg (Mar 14, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> If he was omnipotent and all-knowi he would have known the choices that Adam-and-Eve would make and that he would banish them from before before he even made them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I guess I did miss this one, sorry.
> 
> Truthfully, I like GON forum and sometimes just click on the lightning bolt symbol to see what’s “happening now”. This thread was active and I read through and felt compelled to join in. No real motive, but I love debate on almost any topic. Especially with respectful/respectable folks like you seem to be. The guy on the kayak seems a little more easy to make throw wild hay makers and get emotional, but sometimes that makes things here more entertaining too!  Haha


I totally get that but then why question why others are here? The guy on the kayak, like all of us at times, has the knack to place something in a different perspective or tone as a way of saying and seeing a point in another way outside of what gets to be a conversation that is stuck in the mud and spinning its wheels. Kind of The Fonz giving the skipping Juke Box a wrap.....its a reset and then Ayyyyyyy things get back on track.


----------



## CarolinaDawg (Mar 14, 2022)

660griz said:


> Wow! If you mean logic, yea. I don't want to give that up. My only addiction is life. The only difference between being bad and not being a christian and being bad and being a christian is, if you are a christian, you can clear your conscious and be forgiven as many times as necessary.
> I only do things that I can live with the consequences. No do-overs for me.


I understand. You are free to make that choice.


----------



## CarolinaDawg (Mar 14, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Its pretty dang accurate when you get right down to it.


In your opinion ?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> Agree to disagree. This is not about my opinion vs yours. There is one and only truth. Everyone is accountable for their acceptance or denial of it.  If you believe in gravity or electricity and I don’t, leaving it at that doesn’t tell the whole story. You and I can have different opinions on the matter and others can just choose to never think about or discuss either.  The fact is gravity and electricity both exist not matter what anyone’s opinion is or if a tribe in the Congo  jungle is aware or not.


If this was about the one and only truth there would be no debate, no denial, no need for anyone to speak for or make excuses for that Truth. The ultimate truth is undeniable.  Sketchy things are easily put to scrutiny.


----------



## 1eyefishing (Mar 14, 2022)

Which of these methods has led one to believe that he knows the characteristics of God?
 Is there another method that I'm not seeing?

Ways of 'knowing'...

*INTUITION*
The first method of knowing is intuition. When we use our intuition, we are relying on our guts, our emotions, and/or our instincts to guide us. Rather than examining facts or using rational thought, intuition involves believing what feels true.


AUTHORITY
Perhaps one of the most common methods of acquiring knowledge is through authority. This method involves accepting new ideas because some authority figure states that they are true. These authorities include parents, the media, doctors, Priests and other religious authorities, the government, and professors.


RATIONALISM
Rationalism involves using logic and reasoning to acquire new knowledge. Using this method premises are stated and logical rules are followed to arrive at sound conclusions. For instance, if I am given the premise that all swans are white and the premise that this is a swan then I can come to the rational conclusion that this swan is white without actually seeing the swan


.EMPIRICISM
Empiricism involves acquiring knowledge through observation and experience. Once again many of you may have believed that all swans are white because you have only ever seen white swans. For centuries people believed the world is flat because it appears to be flat.

*THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD*
The scientific method is a process of systematically collecting and evaluating evidence to test ideas and answer questions.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> Agree to disagree. This is not about my opinion vs yours. There is one and only truth. Everyone is accountable for their acceptance or denial of it.  If you believe in gravity or electricity and I don’t, leaving it at that doesn’t tell the whole story. You and I can have different opinions on the matter and others can just choose to never think about or discuss either.  The fact is gravity and electricity both exist not matter what anyone’s opinion is or if a tribe in the Congo  jungle is aware or not.


Can you and I each prove electricity and gravity exists by showing examples of each that we would both acknowledge and agree that the evidence is undeniable?


----------



## CarolinaDawg (Mar 14, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Thats a hard question that is difficult to answer.
> Interestingly, it wasnt "God" that I came to have a problem with. I was brought up Roman Catholic and the Priests themselves were all good men.
> I came to disagree with all the hypocrisy in organized religion, what I was supposed to think about people of other religions or no religions, certain stories in the Bible I find repulsive etc. etc.
> So at first I just rejected organized religion but still believed in God. Then I came to the realization that everything I knew about God came from organized religion.
> ...


I understand and thank you for sharing. I too dislike “religion”. I know this is going to feel harsh, but I and most Christians disagree with Catholicism. The Bible is the truth and the Catholic religion added a bunch of man-made stuff on top that just isn’t of God or from God.  An example: Jesus clearly taught that redemption and salvation only come through Him. He is the only way, but all can come. Before Christ, you needed a sacrifice and a priest to be the intermediate between you and God. The Pharisees tried to keep all the knowledge and lord it over the people.  They took what God intended and added man-made rules and made it a burden to people.  Jesus went after them time and time again for it.  Catholicism decided to go back in that direction.  I don’t need a priest to hear my confession and give me a ritual to practice to absolve me of my sins. I can go straight to Christ. Catholicism inserts man where man doesn’t belong and twisting of the truth has led to power grabs, wars, child molestation, and many misguided people.


----------



## CarolinaDawg (Mar 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Can you and I each prove electricity and gravity exists by showing examples of each that we would both acknowledge and agree that the evidence is undeniable?


I knew someone would go there. The relationship that is Christianity requires faith/trust first, and true wisdom follows.  You cannot logic your way into a real relationship.  I know that won’t satisfy, but that is the truth.  I cannot change it. We each are accountable for our acceptance or denial.  No one is ever going to be able to offer full scientific proof that will satisfy everyone and lead to everyone accepting Christ.  Satan and all his demons have seen him with their own eyes and chose to reject.


----------



## 660griz (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> The fact is gravity and electricity both exist not matter what anyone’s opinion is or if a tribe in the Congo  jungle is aware or not.


"_Opinion_ is the medium _between knowledge and ignorance_." - Plato


----------



## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> I knew someone would go there. The relationship that is Christianity requires faith/trust first, and true wisdom follows.  You cannot logic your way into a real relationship.  I know that won’t satisfy, but that is the truth.  I cannot change it. We each are accountable for our acceptance or denial.  No one is ever going to be able to offer full scientific proof that will satisfy everyone and lead to everyone accepting Christ.  Satan and all his demons have seen him with their own eyes and chose to reject.


I am not asking you to prove your faith. I have faith that my wife loves me which I cannot prove. But I CAN prove my wife exists.
I can make claims about gods and devils, demons and angels but none of it means a hill of beans if I have to constantly tap-dance around having to come up with any tangible proof they exist. Again I am not asking you to prove your faith, I am asking you prove that what you have faith in exists.
Do you have faith that Satan exists like you have faith God exists?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> I knew someone would go there. The relationship that is Christianity requires faith/trust first, and true wisdom follows.  You cannot logic your way into a real relationship.  I know that won’t satisfy, but that is the truth.  I cannot change it. We each are accountable for our acceptance or denial.  No one is ever going to be able to offer full scientific proof that will satisfy everyone and lead to everyone accepting Christ.  Satan and all his demons have seen him with their own eyes and chose to reject.


I am having a hard time understanding why you have to have faith in things you claim are true.
I don't need faith in gravity or faith in electricity because I can make claims about them and immediately back up those claims with demonstrable evidence.
I can claim my wife loves me and convince myself of things that prove her love to me, but those things would only be unique to me. That is where I would need faith. But I wouldn't need to say to you that You need to have faith my wife exists. I can show you a lot of evidence that she in fact does exist. She is a mere mortal and proof of her actual existence is simple. 
You claim your God exists along with a cast of others who *so far have not been available anywhere outside of the pages of the bible or minds of those that need faith. If God is Truth why is it impossible to show it?


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> I knew someone would go there. The relationship that is Christianity requires faith/trust first, and true wisdom follows.  You cannot logic your way into a real relationship.  I know that won’t satisfy, but that is the truth.  I cannot change it. We each are accountable for our acceptance or denial.  No one is ever going to be able to offer full scientific proof that will satisfy everyone and lead to everyone accepting Christ.  Satan and all his demons have seen him with their own eyes and chose to reject.


Real facts or phenomenon doesn't require "faith" as a basis for believing in them. It doesn't matter whether or not you believe in electricity, stick a screwdriver into an outlet, and you will get plenty of demonstrable proof  that electricity is real-no faith needed.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> Satan was created “good” and with freedom because God is good and freedom is good. Even though Satan had all the evidence and experience of heaven and God, Satan wanted to worshiped above God. He sinned. He had the gift of freedom and he abused it. When God created the earth, it was good. There was no death, all animals ate plants, no diseases, no tornadoes, no weeds, no drought, no biting insects, etc.  Man had paradise on earth, the ability to literally walk with God and look upon his face and they had/have freedom.   They chose to believe a lie rather than the truth and place attempted to put themselves equal with God.  God is holy and just and gives us the gift of justice.  Therefore he cannot and will tolerate sin. It must be dealt with in order for justice to exist. All of the things you listed like tornados, etc are are consequence of sin. The good news is it’s not permanent. In the same breath God gave the punishment, he also gave the solution that he himself would be the ultimate sacrifice to undo what they did.


Tornados are caused by sin? OK. If we believe in natural weather phenomenon as the punishments of God like they did two thousand years ago, maybe we should go out and sacrifice a goat or small child when the sirens go off, to appease the angry god? 

Lions ate plants? Their teeth and digestive system would not make that possible.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Real facts or phenomenon doesn't require "faith" as a basis for believing in them. It doesn't matter whether or not you believe in electricity, stick a screwdriver into an outlet, and you will get plenty of demonstrable proof without faith that electricity is real.


Claims are just Claims without evidence. 
Truth, especially  something touted as being The Ultimate Truth  isn't just true for some people and not others. It is true and provable whether everyone belives it or not.
Your Screwdriver/Socket test is Universal. Both believer and Non will get the same result and the person claiming electricity is real will have done their part in proving it.

In the case of believers, they are telling us to stick a Screwdriver against a wall and have faith that there is an outlet there. When we don't get zapped they pray you will get zapped. When we pray to get zapped but still do not they say that the outlet never meant for you to be zapped. But the whole time....There Is No Outlet.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I totally get that but then why question why others are here? The guy on the kayak, like all of us at times, has the knack to place something in a different perspective or tone as a way of saying and seeing a point in another way outside of what gets to be a conversation that is stuck in the mud and spinning its wheels. Kind of The Fonz giving the skipping Juke Box a wrap.....its a reset and then Ayyyyyyy things get back on track.



I don’t plan on apologizing for asking questions is a forum that is slam full of questions, in a subforum that wouldn’t exist without questions and in a thread that is basically a series of questions. If you didn’t like my posts, and were hoping this thread would just be members reinforcing your doubt, I guess that would be real disappointment, and I see your point. 


Also, from my very limited time here, I’d have to disagree with your analogy of who the kayak man is. He appears to be in more of a Dwight Shrute role. At times pretty sharp, but not slick like the Fonz.  That isn’t a slight either. I have a Shrute Farms T-shirt I wear around.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 14, 2022)

…and Dwight is mean on a six string.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Tornados are caused by sin? OK. If we believe in natural weather phenomenon as the punishments of God like they did two thousand years ago, maybe we should go out and sacrifice a goat or small child when the sirens go off, to appease the angry god?
> 
> Lions ate plants? Their teeth and digestive system would not make that possible.


That is one of those things that is backed up by science but really is in no way backed up by science.


----------



## CarolinaDawg (Mar 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> If this was about the one and only truth there would be no debate, no denial, no need for anyone to speak for or make excuses for that Truth. The ultimate truth is undeniable.  Sketchy things are easily put to scrutiny.


Everyone is free to accept or deny the truth. I can’t think of an example of one single truth that is universally accepted by each and ever human. Again, Satan and his demons have no doubt Jesus is the son of the living God. They still reject Him.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I don’t plan on apologizing for asking questions is a forum that is slam full of questions, in a subforum that wouldn’t exist without questions and in a thread that is basically a series of questions. If you didn’t like my posts, and were hoping this thread would just be members reinforcing your doubt, I guess that would be real disappointment, and I see your point.
> 
> 
> Also, from my very limited time here, I’d have to disagree with your analogy of who the kayak man is. He appears to be in more of a Dwight Shrute role. At times pretty sharp, but not slick like the Fonz.  That isn’t a slight either. I have a Shrute Farms T-shirt I wear around.


I don't want you to apologize for asking questions. 
I am questioning why you asked why would Non believers be in a place to ask questions!!!! As if we shouldn't spend our time how we see fit.

I never said i didnt like your posts so I dont know why you assert that.

You nailed the Kayak Man reply.
Only in that your very Limited time here has not allowed you to know Walt as the others do. While I am a Shrute fan, Dwight drives a Firebird not a Kayak.


----------



## 1eyefishing (Mar 14, 2022)

If my questions about how man can know his own very basic implications of his own religion to be true cannot be answered, I can accept that...
Seems noone can explain it.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 14, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Tornados are caused by sin? OK. If we believe in natural weather phenomenon as the punishments of God like they did two thousand years ago, maybe we should go out and sacrifice a goat or small child when the sirens go off, to appease the angry god?
> 
> Lions ate plants? Their teeth and digestive system would not make that possible.





> Lions ate plants? Their teeth and digestive system would not make that possible


But evolution says they can adapt, did they lie again


----------



## CarolinaDawg (Mar 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> That is one of those things that is backed up by science but really is in no way backed up by science.


The world is cursed by sin. We are living in the earthly consequences of sin.  There is nothing that tells us that sacrificing a goat will do anything to alleviate that. We can avoid eternal punishment for sin, but we cannot avoid experiencing the consequences of sin on this earth. Youth pastors and missionaries get killed, Christian’s still get cancer, etc.  Christ had to suffer and we are less than Him, so we will not avoid suffering. Suffering is hard and I don’t enjoy it.  My son has a rare genetic disorder and every day for him is a struggle. It’s like living your life in an astronaut’s suit that he can never take off.  Watching your suffer is incredibly hard and I don’t wish it on anyone.  With that said, God hasn’t removed us from the furnace, but I know he’s in the furnace with us.  He gave my son a special, special personality to deal with his condition.  If you asked him if he would like to change himself, he would think you were crazy for asking such a question.  He is surrounded by love and resources and he is happy and has received Christ. He knows why he is on this earth and what his future holds. He’s an amazing kid and God made him exactly the way he wanted him to be.  Many people have how my family has walked through the trials to see if we really believe.  Our struggles have caused me and my wife to grow closer to God and then each other and our lives have been a powerful witness to those who have been watching.  I know God exist because I have experienced Him. My wife has experienced Him. He’s alive and He’s wonderful.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> Everyone is free to accept or deny the truth. I can’t think of an example of one single truth that is universally accepted by each and ever human. Again, Satan and his demons have no doubt Jesus is the son of the living God. They still reject Him.


All you are doing is making claims.
Truths dont have to be accepted but they can be proven. Simply saying this is a truth doesn't make it so. Back It Up.
"Satan and his Demons have no doubt Jesus is the Son of the living God"
Carries the same weight as
"Mighty Mouse, pound for pound,  is as strong and as fast as Superman"
Each is truthful when contained to the context and pages they are written on but in reality....None have been shown to exist.


----------



## CarolinaDawg (Mar 14, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> But evolution says they can adapt, did they lie again


The flood completely reset the earth.  It had never rained before the flood. Science is beginning to catch up to it. Recent studies are pointing to it.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 14, 2022)

Same old same old up in here.  “We want discussion.  The discussion is just us telling you how dumb your beliefs are and how smart we are for not sharing them but we want discussion.”  Yawn.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> The world is cursed by sin. We are living in the earthly consequences of sin.  There is nothing that tells us that sacrificing a goat will do anything to alleviate that. We can avoid eternal punishment for sin, but we cannot avoid experiencing the consequences of sin on this earth. Youth pastors and missionaries get killed, Christian’s still get cancer, etc.  Christ had to suffer and we are less than Him, so we will not avoid suffering. Suffering is hard and I don’t enjoy it.  My son has a rare genetic disorder and every day for him is a struggle. It’s like living your life in an astronaut’s suit that he can never take off.  Watching your suffer is incredibly hard and I don’t wish it on anyone.  With that said, God hasn’t removed us from the furnace, but I know he’s in the furnace with us.  He gave my son a special, special personality to deal with his condition.  If you asked him if he would like to change himself, he would think you were crazy for asking such a question.  He is surrounded by love and resources and he is happy and has received Christ. He knows why he is on this earth and what his future holds. He’s an amazing kid and God made him exactly the way he wanted him to be.  Many people have how my family has walked through the trials to see if we really believe.  Our struggles have caused me and my wife to grow closer to God and then each other and our lives have been a powerful witness to those who have been watching.  I know God exist because I have experienced Him. My wife has experienced Him. He’s alive and He’s wonderful.


I appreciate you giving some personal background and insight.
This is in no way meant to diminish or insult you or anyone in your family....
Lets go back to Electricity. 
You, I, your wife , my wife, your son, my sons, a tribesman from the Congo or literally anyone else CAN be shown Electricity exists. Take all 7+ Billion people on the planet and when each of them puts something metal in an outet Electricity will be proven in a millisecond. There is no belief needed. No trials and tribulations. No dreams of volts or amps. Whack! Ta Da! That is Electricity. It is universal proof that will work for believers and Non equally as well. It Is Unquestionable and Immediate proof.

Your examples of proof for a God work for you. I feel as though you assign a responsible party to circumstances which offer no real proof as to why they happen....just that they happened.

If you can prove God like you can prove electricity it is case closed. Better yet if a God was real it wouldn't need anybody to have to prove anything it could do itself.


----------



## CarolinaDawg (Mar 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> All you are doing is making claims.
> Truths dont have to be accepted but they can be proven. Simply saying this is a truth doesn't make it so. Back It Up.
> "Satan and his Demons have no doubt Jesus is the Son of the living God"
> Carries the same weight as
> ...


Friend, I am at my limits of my capability and responsibility on a message board. I have accurately represented God’s truth in as a few characters as possible. All I can do is speak the truth. No one has ever successfully argued another person into accepting Jesus. That’s not a thing and that’s what I’m attempting to do. There will not be some scientific proof that everyone accepts until Christ returns.  At that moment EVERY knee will bow.  It will however be too late for those who did not accept Christ on faith.  God offers you a relationship built on trust in him and love.  I cannot circumvent that and produce the evidence you require. You have been provided enough though. I found more than enough and continue to learn more.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> The flood completely reset the earth.  It had never rained before the flood. Science is beginning to catch up to it. Recent studies are pointing to it.


I literally cannot say what I want to say.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> Friend, I am at my limits of my capability and responsibility on a message board. I have accurately represented God’s truth in as a few characters as possible. All I can do is speak the truth. No one has ever successfully argued another person into accepting Jesus. That’s not a thing and that’s what I’m attempting to do. There will not be some scientific proof that everyone accepts until Christ returns.  At that moment EVERY knee will bow.  It will however be too late for those who did not accept Christ on faith.  God offers you a relationship built on trust in him and love.  I cannot circumvent that and produce the evidence you require. You have been provided enough though. I found more than enough and continue to learn more.


All you have done was give insight into that you believe in a god. I have seen zero truth from you that any god exists let alone a specific god. Nothing is closer now to proving a god exists than 351 posts ago.


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## NCHillbilly (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> Everyone is free to accept or deny the truth. I can’t think of an example of one single truth that is universally accepted by each and ever human. Again, Satan and his demons have no doubt Jesus is the son of the living God. They still reject Him.


I can think of many. I have never seen a person deny that gravity exists, for example, because of the simple reason that when you drop something, it always falls down, never up. There are plenty more.


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## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> But evolution says they can adapt, did they lie again


How many years ago did Lions eat plants?


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> How many years ago did Lions eat plants?


September 17, 3928 B.C., according to some.


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## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Same old same old up in here.  “We want discussion.  The discussion is just us telling you how dumb your beliefs are and how smart we are for not sharing them but we want discussion.”  Yawn.


Well, no different than in the political forum where the Right tells the left the same things. The left tells the right the same things.
Any forum really..


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## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> September 17, 3928 B.C., according to some.


This is a perfect example of how what is written in the bible can be shown to coincidence with science.
Or
Not


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## Danuwoa (Mar 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Well, no different than in the political forum where the Right tells the left the same things. The left tells the right the same things.
> Any forum really..


No doubt.  I guess I just don’t understand spending so much time on something if I didn’t  even believe it was real in the first place.  I just wouldn’t care.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> No doubt.  I guess I just don’t understand spending so much time on something if I didn’t  even believe it was real in the first place.  I just wouldn’t care.


Yea but we don't believe in the ideals of the democrats but spend a lot of time trying to figure out why some do. We listen to what they say and there is something inside us that compells us to show an alternate point, possibly in the hopes that even if a light bulb doesn't come on they can at least see why we think and say what we do. I think we give good examples to back up our stances.

AAA forum is no different.
I am there to discuss point and counter point and it intriges me when a person can back up their claims. I can learn something then.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Yea but we don't believe in the ideals of the democrats but spend a lot of time trying to figure out why some do. We listen to what they say and there is something inside us that compells us to show an alternate point, possibly in the hopes that even if a light bulb doesn't come on they can at least see why we think and say what we do. I think we give good examples to back up our stances.
> 
> AAA forum is no different.
> I am there to discuss point and counter point and it intriges me when a person can back up their claims. I can learn something then.


Fair enough.


----------



## brutally honest (Mar 14, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> If my questions about how man can know his own very basic implications of his own religion to be true cannot be answered, I can accept that...
> Seems noone can explain it.



Back to the OP, we do not know.  Jesus said “blessed is the man who believes yet has NOT seen.”

We are made right with God through faith, and we live by faith.


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## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

What really has me intrigued is his no rain before the flood thing.
It just piques my "but I gotsta know" curiosity.  And triggers a bunch of questions.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> I understand and thank you for sharing. I too dislike “religion”. I know this is going to feel harsh, but I and most Christians disagree with Catholicism. The Bible is the truth and the Catholic religion added a bunch of man-made stuff on top that just isn’t of God or from God.  An example: Jesus clearly taught that redemption and salvation only come through Him. He is the only way, but all can come. Before Christ, you needed a sacrifice and a priest to be the intermediate between you and God. The Pharisees tried to keep all the knowledge and lord it over the people.  They took what God intended and added man-made rules and made it a burden to people.  Jesus went after them time and time again for it.  Catholicism decided to go back in that direction.  I don’t need a priest to hear my confession and give me a ritual to practice to absolve me of my sins. I can go straight to Christ. Catholicism inserts man where man doesn’t belong and twisting of the truth has led to power grabs, wars, child molestation, and many misguided people.





> most Christians disagree with Catholicism


.
Oh you dont have to tell me that . I often read the other Christian subforums here but I just dont post there as I dont think it would be appropriate. Catholicism gets bashed quite often. Christians bashing other Christians. Nice.
Interestingly, in all the time I spent in Catholicism and around Catholics, I never heard one peep about other denominations. As a kid I thought everybody was Catholic.


> Catholicism inserts man where man doesn’t belong and twisting of the truth has led to power grabs, wars, child molestation, and many misguided people.


Well you guys have Westboro Baptist so dont be jealous 
Its funny though, when someone bashes Catholicism, my immediate reaction is to get angry for a split second. Thats how I know I still carry some of that ol' time religion in me some where.


----------



## 1eyefishing (Mar 14, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Back to the OP, we do not know.  Jesus said “blessed is the man who believes yet has NOT seen.”
> 
> We are made right with God through faith, and we live by faith.



 Thank you. I enjoy the the faith I have and I'm always wondering if I should have more. I'm quite comfortable with what I have, but I can't call it knowledge.
 I find myself praying regularly (at least there's that), mostly giving thanks and not asking for more... My scientific mind is always looking for evidence that it was heard.


----------



## Baroque Brass (Mar 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> What really has me intrigued is his no rain before the flood thing.
> It just piques my "but I gotsta know" curiosity.  And triggers a bunch of questions.


Then except for the oceans, was the entire world a desert? I’d never heard the part about no rain before the flood. What kept all the animals alive that found their way to the ark? If it had never rained, where did food for the animals come from?


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## CarolinaDawg (Mar 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I appreciate you giving some personal background and insight.
> This is in no way meant to diminish or insult you or anyone in your family....
> Lets go back to Electricity.
> You, I, your wife , my wife, your son, my sons, a tribesman from the Congo or literally anyone else CAN be shown Electricity exists. Take all 7+ Billion people on the planet and when each of them puts something metal in an outet Electricity will be proven in a millisecond. There is no belief needed. No trials and tribulations. No dreams of volts or amps. Whack! Ta Da! That is Electricity. It is universal proof that will work for believers and Non equally as well. It Is Unquestionable and Immediate proof.
> ...


The electricity analogy doesn’t transfer to God because it’s not apples to apples.  I must also clarify that belief that God exist should not be the focus of discussion as it really doesn’t matter to us.  Satan and all the demons know God exist.  Believing he exists doesn’t do any good.  It’s acceptance of him as the Lord of your life.  So it’s acceptance of truth we’re discussing.  You assert that every person on the planet would have electricity proven to them by being shocked and no belief would be required.  If you told each person that was shocked that it was electricity, most would believe, but not all would.  If you told them that accepting that it was electricity that shocked you meant they would have everlasting life, most, but not all would accept. If you further explained that acceptance meant following a path that leads counter to natural man and worldly instincts,  that many would hate you for it, that trials and struggles for your own benefit were necessary, and that you must put others in front of yourself. Do this and you will no what it is like to be truly loved, this knowledge allows you to actually love others, you will know the meaning of life, and your specific purpose, that you will get a perfect body, live in a perfect place, doing perfect work forever, most would not accept the truth of electricity.  I could have probably stopped at you must put others before yourself.  We are born selfish creatures.  Nobody has to tell a baby to say “mine”. It’s always one of the first things they say though. Many go to great lengths to accept the alternative to Jesus Christ as your lord and savior - it happened by random chance, although statistically impossible and impossible to prove. They will accept this and demand proof of Christ.  They do not demand the same evidence to back their own beliefs. If you thoroughly researched both sides using the same requirements, you will see there is but one truth.  One.


----------



## ky55 (Mar 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> What really has me intrigued is his no rain before the flood thing.
> It just piques my "but I gotsta know" curiosity.  And triggers a bunch of questions.



I bet a lot of folks wondered what was going on…..
Since drowning hadn’t been invented yet.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

Baroque Brass said:


> Then except for the oceans, was the entire world a desert? I’d never heard the part about no rain before the flood. What kept all the animals alive that found their way to the ark? If it had never rained, where did food for the animals come from?


The bible talks about a mist. Was this mist enough to sustain plant life and create fresh water ponds? Were there also springs, streams, rivers and oceans...but it just never actually rained?

Science tells me that there were constant violent storms that dumped massive rains upon the earth millions upon millions of years before humans arrived and it eventually subsided to more like what we experience now.
But when anything beyond 4000 years is not factored in it is easy to make up whatever ya want.

I wonder why nobody told the Chinese, Egyptians, Mesopotamians, Sumerians and other local cultures about the worldwide killer flood? Thise poor buggers kept writing and living as if it didnt happen........


----------



## CarolinaDawg (Mar 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Claims are just Claims without evidence.
> Truth, especially  something touted as being The Ultimate Truth  isn't just true for some people and not others. It is true and provable whether everyone belives it or not.
> Your Screwdriver/Socket test is Universal. Both believer and Non will get the same result and the person claiming electricity is real will have done their part in proving it.
> 
> In the case of believers, they are telling us to stick a Screwdriver against a wall and have faith that there is an outlet there. When we don't get zapped they pray you will get zapped. When we pray to get zapped but still do not they say that the outlet never meant for you to be zapped. But the whole time....There Is No Outlet.


As black and white as your analogy is, it’s the same for Jesus. Give your life to Him and you will become a new person with a new purpose and future. In this case I’m the guy that stuck the screw driver in the socket and got shocked. Now I’m trying to tell you what will happen if you follow suit. You guys are reluctant to believe in the electricity and you have no plans to stick the screwdriver in socket to find out. You may just continue to debate the subject.


----------



## CarolinaDawg (Mar 14, 2022)

ky55 said:


> I bet a lot of folks wondered what was going on…..
> Since drowning hadn’t been invented yet.


Totally. Can you imagine how Noah felt building the arc for around 100 years? That had to be tough.


----------



## CarolinaDawg (Mar 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> The bible talks about a mist. Was this mist enough to sustain plant life and create fresh water ponds? Were there also springs, streams, rivers and oceans...but it just never actually rained?
> 
> Science tells me that there were constant violent storms that dumped massive rains upon the earth millions upon millions of years before humans arrived and it eventually subsided to more like what we experience now.
> But when anything beyond 4000 years is not factored in it is easy to make up whatever ya want.
> ...


Water came up from the ground - springs and such.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 14, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I don’t plan on apologizing for asking questions is a forum that is slam full of questions, in a subforum that wouldn’t exist without questions and in a thread that is basically a series of questions. If you didn’t like my posts, and were hoping this thread would just be members reinforcing your doubt, I guess that would be real disappointment, and I see your point.
> 
> 
> Also, from my very limited time here, I’d have to disagree with your analogy of who the kayak man is. He appears to be in more of a Dwight Shrute role. At times pretty sharp, but not slick like the Fonz.  That isn’t a slight either. I have a Shrute Farms T-shirt I wear around.


Im glad I dont have a clue who Dwight Shrute is.  Never did think I was the Fonz. I did used to wear a leather jacket though.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> The electricity analogy doesn’t transfer to God because it’s not apples to apples.  I must also clarify that belief that God exist should not be the focus of discussion as it really doesn’t matter to us.  Satan and all the demons know God exist.  Believing he exists doesn’t do any good.  It’s acceptance of him as the Lord of your life.  So it’s acceptance of truth we’re discussing.  You assert that every person on the planet would have electricity proven to them by being shocked and no belief would be required.  If you told each person that was shocked that it was electricity, most would believe, but not all would.  If you told them that accepting that it was electricity that shocked you meant they would have everlasting life, most, but not all would accept. If you further explained that acceptance meant following a path that leads counter to natural man and worldly instincts,  that many would hate you for it, that trials and struggles for your own benefit were necessary, and that you must put others in front of yourself. Do this and you will no what it is like to be truly loved, this knowledge allows you to actually love others, you will know the meaning of life, and your specific purpose, that you will get a perfect body, live in a perfect place, doing perfect work forever, most would not accept the truth of electricity.  I could have probably stopped at you must put others before yourself.  We are born selfish creatures.  Nobody has to tell a baby to say “mine”. It’s always one of the first things they say though. Many go to great lengths to accept the alternative to Jesus Christ as your lord and savior - it happened by random chance, although statistically impossible and impossible to prove. They will accept this and demand proof of Christ.  They do not demand the same evidence to back their own beliefs. If you thoroughly researched both sides using the same requirements, you will see there is but one truth.  One.


Before we can establish that ANYTHING else may even be remotely possible, we absolutely needs to establish that God exists. Without that cornerstone everything thing else is hollow claims and wishful thinking.

Stick metal object in socket get whapped. Period. Done. Proof Granted. It doesn't matter what anyone believes about what happened, it just matters that it happened. That is proof.

You are making assertions that are in no way truthful.  I am living breathing proof that by doing as you suggest to research both sides does not point to the truth you say it does.

You have given us nothing tangible and instead have barely touched our direct questions. I understand why. I just wish you could admit it.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> As black and white as your analogy is, it’s the same for Jesus. Give your life to Him and you will become a new person with a new purpose and future. In this case I’m the guy that stuck the screw driver in the socket and got shocked. Now I’m trying to tell you what will happen if you follow suit. You guys are reluctant to believe in the electricity and you have no plans to stick the screwdriver in socket to find out. You may just continue to debate the subject.


I had already given 25 years to Jesus/God. Didn't work out. 
You have to establish Jesus and God before you can expect us to believe they exist. 
Electricity is much more tangible and real than your God claims


----------



## ky55 (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> Totally. Can you imagine how Noah felt building the arc for around 100 years? That had to be tough.



Yes I can. 
Actually, using my imagination is the only way I can manage to follow this discussion at this point.


----------



## Baroque Brass (Mar 14, 2022)

So tornadoes are caused by sin? That debunks a whole lot of science that tends to attribute tornadoes to such things as warm, humid air masses colliding with strong cold fronts or lots of convective activity in the summer months. So based on this, does sin subside in the winter months? Tornadic activity sure does, except for the occasional tornado that occurs during the winter because all those weather ingredients were there. Maybe instead of watching all the potential for storms to form, meteorologists should watch for upticks in sin.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> As black and white as your analogy is, it’s the same for Jesus. Give your life to Him and you will become a new person with a new purpose and future. In this case I’m the guy that stuck the screw driver in the socket and got shocked. Now I’m trying to tell you what will happen if you follow suit. You guys are reluctant to believe in the electricity and you have no plans to stick the screwdriver in socket to find out. You may just continue to debate the subject.


So far you have claimed the equivalent of having a DeLorean in your garage that goes back to the future when it hits 88mph. You have told us all about the car, who all has taken rides in it, all the performance upgrades it has etc etc etc and all we are asking is for you to open the Garage door and show us the car and then we can talk about all that other stuff once it is established that you really do have the car.
It is as simple as that.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> So far you have claimed the equivalent of having a DeLorean in your garage that goes back to the future when it hits 88mph. You have told us all about the car, who all has taken rides in it, all the performance upgrades it has etc etc etc and all we are asking is for you to open the Garage door and show us the car and then we can talk about all that other stuff once it is established that you really do have the car.
> It is as simple as that.



Do you happen to have a spare flux capacitor?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Do you happen to have a spare flux capacitor?


Yes I do!
But you cannot see it and I cannot show it you. But if you have faith in it and just submit it will produce 1.21 Gigawatts.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> This is a perfect example of how what is written in the bible can be shown to coincidence with science.
> Or
> Not


Yea but you know where I stand on science. I believe science is good, it’s needed and it’s beneficial explaining to me how a tree grows. But it has its limitations because the origin of everything is built on sn assumption and changes over time as new info is discovered.


----------



## ky55 (Mar 14, 2022)

Baroque Brass said:


> So tornadoes are caused by sin? That debunks a whole lot of science that tends to attribute tornadoes to such things as warm, humid air masses colliding with strong cold fronts or lots of convective activity in the summer months. So based on this, does sin subside in the winter months? Tornadic activity sure does, except for the occasional tornado that occurs during the winter because all those weather ingredients were there. Maybe instead of watching all the potential for storms to form, meteorologists should watch for upticks in sin.



According to Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson,  sexual immorality and abortion caused the 9/11 attacks on the towers:

“I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularise America, I point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen.' "

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2001/sep/19/september11.usa9

So tornadoes should be no problem at all.


----------



## Baroque Brass (Mar 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Yes I do!
> But you cannot see it and I cannot show it you. But if you have faith in it and just submit it will produce 1.21 Gigawatts.


Does it come with an instruction book that makes no sense?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Yea but you know where I stand on science. I believe science is good, it’s needed and it’s beneficial explaining to me how a tree grows. But it has its limitations because the origin of everything is built on sn assumption and changes over time as new info is discovered.


More likely than not based off of the best information available and willing to change if new information becomes available seems like a better system than everything was made in 6 days.
Color me crazy


----------



## ky55 (Mar 14, 2022)

Baroque Brass said:


> Does it come with an instruction book that makes no sense?



It only makes sense to Bullet.


----------



## CarolinaDawg (Mar 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> All you have done was give insight into that you believe in a god. I have seen zero truth from you that any god exists let alone a specific god. Nothing is closer now to proving a god exists than 351 posts ago.


My friend, I have provided the truthful answers to most of the questions asked today. We both know that there’s nothing I can type here that is going to meet your expectations for proof that God exists
What else can I do but participate in the discussion here. Btw, I’m thankful for the opportunity guys. In order for the discussion to continue to add value we must agree to apply logic equally. Agree? 
I’ll list a few things that can easily be verified by you guys. 
The Bible - no other book is like the Bible. It was written by over 40 different men of diverse backgrounds over the course of 1,500 years.  The 66 different books, 31173 verses are in perfect harmony and tell the full story of it all from creation to recreation. It has survived banning, burning, etc. The Bible is one of kind and it’s not close. 
Prophesy - The Bible is the only book that accurately foretells specific details in many years and sometimes centuries before they occur. There are approximately 2,500 prophesies in the Bible, about 2,000 have already been fulfilled to the letter with no errors. The crucifixion of Jesus was laid out in detail before there even a Roman Empire. The sacking of Jerusalem in 70 AD was described exactly in 33 AD (and earlier), the conquering of Israel by the Babylonians and 70 year exile was fulfilled to the day, and on and on.   The Bible is different from every other Book ever written. 
Science and statistics - it is mathematically impossible that from nothing/random chance that the earth ended up in the exact right distance and angle of tilt from the sun to sustain life. A hair to left or right - nothing. It is also a mathematical impossibly for any (let alone all) DNA sequences to have come about. The absolute perfection that is necessary for any life at all to exist can only come from a creator. Chaos can’t produce order. From the inner workings of electrons and the micro universe and how it all perfectly builds up to the inner workings, the laws, the order required for all the elements to exist in the numerous galaxies…. WOW.  It’s just NOT possible for the pure perfection of it all to have “happened”. If you believe in math and science, research this honestly and with an open mind.  
Archaeology - There have been over 50,000 digs at 30,000 locations that continue to produce evidence of the Bible’s accuracy.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 14, 2022)

660griz said:


> Wow! If you mean logic, yea. I don't want to give that up. My only addiction is life. The only difference between being bad and not being a christian and being bad and being a christian is, if you are a christian, you can clear your conscious and be forgiven as many times as necessary.
> I only do things that I can live with the consequences. No do-overs for me.



taking reality head-on! I like your style.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 14, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> I had more than a dozen sips before the sun even came up this morning
> I gave up alcohol but coffee will be with me as long as Im breathing.



me too I quit drinking alcohol a few years ago as per doctors' suggestions. 
They saved me from bleeding out (not alcohol related) so I figure they know more than I do about smart medical type stuff.


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## CarolinaDawg (Mar 14, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> .
> Oh you dont have to tell me that . I often read the other Christian subforums here but I just dont post there as I dont think it would be appropriate. Catholicism gets bashed quite often. Christians bashing other Christians. Nice.
> Interestingly, in all the time I spent in Catholicism and around Catholics, I never heard one peep about other denominations. As a kid I thought everybody was Catholic.
> 
> ...


 There are many wonderful Catholics. The “religion” is the issue, not the people.


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## Spotlite (Mar 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> More likely than not based off of the best information available and willing to change if new information becomes available seems like a better system than everything was made in 6 days.
> Color me crazy


I don’t color you crazy at all. Man gotta go with what he feels is the best way.

I dont completely discard science, I just think there’s a point where there’s a disconnect between some concrete answers. Maybe I’m biased abs I’m sure I am but I gotta go with what I think is right with some things. 

I do wished more Christians wouldn’t completely reject science as a whole, though.


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## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> My friend, I have provided the truthful answers to most of the questions asked today. We both know that there’s nothing I can type here that is going to meet your expectations for proof that God exists
> What else can I do but participate in the discussion here. Btw, I’m thankful for the opportunity guys. In order for the discussion to continue to add value we must agree to apply logic equally. Agree?
> I’ll list a few things that can easily be verified by you guys.


I agree that you have answered truthfully but many of yours answers were not true.



CarolinaDawg said:


> The Bible - no other book is like the Bible. It was written by over 40 different men of diverse backgrounds over the course of 1,500 years.  The 66 different books, 31173 verses are in perfect harmony and tell the full story of it all from creation to recreation. It has survived banning, burning, etc. The Bible is one of kind and it’s not close.


Can you name all the authors?
The writings do not pick up where one left off. The writings were chosen from many various and anonymous authors who wrote over the span of those years and were put together to flow much like we can take writings from the 1600s to now and piece together the story of our country from start to current.
When you are doing the burnings it is no wonder that your books survive. The Church destroyed as many documents and writings as possible which did not match what was selected to be included.
None of it points to a god let alone a specfic god



CarolinaDawg said:


> The Bible is the only book that accurately foretells specific details in many years and sometimes centuries before they occur. There are approximately 2,500 prophesies in the Bible, about 2,000 have already been fulfilled to the letter with no errors. The crucifixion of Jesus was laid out in detail before there even a Roman Empire. The sacking of Jerusalem in 70 AD was described exactly in 33 AD (and earlier), the conquering of Israel by the Babylonians and 70 year exile was fulfilled to the day, and on and on.   The Bible is different from every other Book ever written.


We have discussed these prophesies many times in here. Much like what you've taken from a Pro Bible site there are sites that refute most of the prophesies.
The bible certainly is different from any book ever written. It was not written as a book. It was assembled from various stories. Much of what is contained in the NT was written to fulfill OT prophesies because they knew what needed to be written to do it. And in many cases it has also failed due to the anonymous authors being unfamiliar with Jewish customs and history.
The bible is loaded with contradictions, errors, inaccuracies,  mistakes, misunderstandings about cultures and practices. It has errors in science, geography, history and genealogy wrong.
None of it points to a god let alone a specfic god



CarolinaDawg said:


> Science and statistics - it is mathematically impossible that from nothing/random chance that the earth ended up in the exact right distance and angle of tilt from the sun to sustain life. A hair to left or right - nothing. It is also a mathematical impossibly for any (let alone all) DNA sequences to have come about. The absolute perfection that is necessary for any life at all to exist can only come from a creator. Chaos can’t produce order. From the inner workings of electrons and the micro universe and how it all perfectly builds up to the inner workings, the laws, the order required for all the elements to exist in the numerous galaxies…. WOW.  It’s just NOT possible for the pure perfection of it all to have “happened”. If you believe in math and science, research this honestly and with an open mind.


It most certainly is not mathematically impossible because here we are. We are the product of what can happen at this distance from the sun and in these conditions. We are products of the available chemistry set. This Earth could not sustain life as we know it for billions of years. Other planets are exactly what would exist in those conditions and like ours as conditions change so do the planets. There are hundreds of Billions of Suns and trillions of planets, many of which are at "life as we know it" distances away from those suns. You (or more specifically the author of this online writing you used) has no idea if we are the only planet with life. Wow. Think about that.
This universe,  our galaxy, our solar system, our planet and Us are not the results of a one time pull of the handle. For Billions upon Billions of years particles intermixed countless times per second in immeasurable varieties until something took. More particles, matter and elments add to it for another many Billions of years.
Life wasn't impossible, Life was inevitable.
None of it points to a god let alone a specfic god



CarolinaDawg said:


> Archaeology - There have been over 50,000 digs at 30,000 locations that continue to produce evidence of the Bible’s accuracy.


Please give us examples.
There is no question that the contents of the bible include some real people, some real places and some real events. That is what archeologists can find. None of it points to a god let alone a specfic god.


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## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I don’t color you crazy at all. Man gotta go with what he feels is the best way.
> 
> I dont completely discard science, I just think there’s a point where there’s a disconnect between some concrete answers. Maybe I’m biased abs I’m sure I am but I gotta go with what I think is right with some things.
> 
> I do wished more Christians wouldn’t completely reject science as a whole, though.


Wouldn't you be listening to the best science at the time from authors of thousands of years ago if you think what is written in the bible is more accurate than what science writes today?
I mean these authors were writing about what were the popular practices of the times. 
Personally if I come down with Leprosy I'll take the three antibiotics cocktail unless something else more effective is found.
But if you contract Leprosy and if yulou want I'll catch you two birds , you can kill one of them and follow the science in the bible for the rest of the procedure if you like. ?


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## Spotlite (Mar 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Wouldn't you be listening to the best science at the time from authors of thousands of years ago if you think what is written in the bible is more accurate than what science writes today?
> I mean these authors were writing about what were the popular practices of the times.
> Personally if I come down with Leprosy I'll take the three antibiotics cocktail unless something else more effective is found.
> But if you contract Leprosy and if yulou want I'll catch you two birds , you can kill one of them and follow the science in the bible for the rest of the procedure if you like. ?


I’m one that has faith in healing but I’m also one that believes that God gave us doctors  and modern medicine, and we shouldn’t shun that resource. I’ve been instantly healed with a surgery canceled and I’ve taken antibiotics. 

I’ll be honest, some of writings I see are for illustrations. But I’m not hung up there, once I knew God and I believed He was working in me, I could care less about the flood, parting of sea, lions eating plants, etc. I’m not in it for the wild stories. 

But, if we both get leprosy and I run out of medicine you can bank on my messaging you to see if you have any left.


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## CarolinaDawg (Mar 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I agree that you have answered truthfully but many of yours answers were not true.
> 
> 
> Can you name all the authors?
> ...





bullethead said:


> I agree that you have answered truthfully but many of yours answers were not true.
> 
> 
> Can you name all the authors?
> ...


I will be glad to provide some examples, but I will kindly ask you to do likewise. I’m not talking about you alone here, but 90% of the those posting on your side of the discussion, I have have received received flimsy analogies, a few snide remarks, and demands of empirical evidence be typed in the text box. You guys seem way too intelligent to leave it there.  I would love to see some logic and provision of some of the evidence that has shaped your beliefs.  There has to more than the intellectual equivalent of “I just don’t believe because it’s someone else’s responsibility to make me believe and they haven’t done it”. 
 I’m done for the night. Hopefully we can continue in the coming days. Night all.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 14, 2022)

mods - are we allowed to post links to sites & you tube videos and whatnot? Because
there are a lot of links I could provide about biblical inconsistencies, errors, contradictions, etc etc.


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## bullethead (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> I will be glad to provide some examples, but I will kindly ask you to do likewise. I’m not talking about you alone here, but 90% of the those posting on your side of the discussion, I have have received received flimsy analogies, a few snide remarks, and demands of empirical evidence be typed in the text box. You guys seem way too intelligent to leave it there.  I would love to see some logic and provision of some of the evidence that has shaped your beliefs.  There has to more than the intellectual equivalent of “I just don’t believe because it’s someone else’s responsibility to make me believe and they haven’t done it”.
> I’m done for the night. Hopefully we can continue in the coming days. Night all.


With all due respect and please I mean this as no slight towards you whatsoever as I am being honest in sharing the past conversations we've had in here....
I and the others have had these conversations already. We have gone over literally everything that you have brought up and we have provided in depth detailed replies backed up with proven examples of evidence which supports our side and also refutes the biblical claims.
They are available in these past forms for you to search for at your convenience.
This forum was on life support for many months because both sides were not interested in rehashing the rehashed rehash a dozenth time.
We have been there and done that and most likely why you have received the answers you have in here.  Quite simply we are so used to talking to thr guys who have been in here so long along with us that we cut right to the chase and bypass the things we've answered ad nauseum.
It truly isnt you, it is me.
I've included so much research in prior conversations here that I literally cannot stomach going through my favorites list and answering them again for the umpteenth time.


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## Spotlite (Mar 14, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> mods - are we allowed to post links to sites & you tube videos and whatnot? Because
> there are a lot of links I could provide about biblical inconsistencies, errors, contradictions, etc etc.


I’m not a mod but the answer is yes, but you should take time to review what’s attached in the links, though. As far as YouTube, you should embed just the video you want to share.

You’re responsible for the content in the links / videos.

https://forum.gon.com/threads/rules-guidelines.350414/



“Posting videos and other media
Linking videos from sites such as YouTube MUST be embedded versus linking to the site page the video is on. The member has a responsibility to ensure that video content is appropriate for this forum and is in compliance with the G-rating.”


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## WaltL1 (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> There are many wonderful Catholics. The “religion” is the issue, not the people.


There are roughly ~ 40,000 Christian denominations. All with their own idea of what the "correct"  version of "religion" is. Some with very tiny differences, some with pretty big differences. But all of them believe their version is the correct one.


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## 1eyefishing (Mar 14, 2022)

40,000 plus me, maybe, I guess. I might have some exploring to do.
 I got to admit I wasn't quite ready for what this thread brought.
 I did concede in the 1st post that I thought there was a God, just not so sure of his characteristics like a lot of people are.
 I did post this in the a/a/a sub forum in order to stay away from the denigration that would have come if I had posted it in the spiritual section.
 One thing for sure, when someone asks if I am a Christian, I pop up with a quick 'yes, definitely '.
 Spiritual mentors are hard to come by. I have met a really great one in the last few years but our contact has been limited because of her age and health. Wish I was closer to her... She is prideful of me when I make her aware of my discussion like this and thoughts I gain from it. I've told her that a great person makes the people around them better, and that she is a great person.
Thx all...


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## WaltL1 (Mar 14, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> 40,000 plus me, maybe, I guess. I might have some exploring to do.
> I got to admit I wasn't quite ready for what this thread brought.
> I did concede in the 1st post that I thought there was a God, just not so sure of his characteristics like a lot of people are.
> I did post this in the a/a/a sub forum in order to stay away from the denigration that would have come if I had posted it in the spiritual section.
> ...





> I got to admit I wasn't quite ready for what this thread brought.


I think what alot of people dont realize is that if everyone agrees, your thinking never gets challenged. Questions get asked here, by both sides, that you would never hear in a just Christian or just A/A forum.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 14, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> I will be glad to provide some examples, but I will kindly ask you to do likewise. I’m not talking about you alone here, but 90% of the those posting on your side of the discussion, I have have received received flimsy analogies, a few snide remarks, and demands of empirical evidence be typed in the text box. You guys seem way too intelligent to leave it there.  I would love to see some logic and provision of some of the evidence that has shaped your beliefs.  There has to more than the intellectual equivalent of “I just don’t believe because it’s someone else’s responsibility to make me believe and they haven’t done it”.
> I’m done for the night. Hopefully we can continue in the coming days. Night all.


Interesting, as a Christian who has been a member for a long time, I don't see it that way at all. This sub-forum is usually pretty quiet until a Christian starts something and then blames the others. I've also seen it that way with the Jewish discussions or even the Catholic bashing discussions.

I think since Christianity is the norm in the US and on the GON, when Atheist or even  people of other religions show up, Christians are the ones who claim they are the ones getting picked on. Maybe that's just a part of human nature.

I also see it with other topics and not just religion. Take politics, which can't be discussed any longer except on the Political forum. Most members on here are Conservative. Thus they are allowed more leeway to add short political responces within the other posts more than a Liberal. I think the feeling may be that a liberal response appears to be more of a political nature than all the conservative ones as that is the norm of the members.

Likewise, an Atheist response seems to be more of a negative response because most of the members are Christians by self identity.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 14, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I’m not a mod but the answer is yes, but you should take time to review what’s attached in the links, though. As far as YouTube, you should embed just the video you want to share.
> 
> You’re responsible for the content in the links / videos.
> 
> ...


 
a G-rating? Yeah, I don't think I can guarantee that so no links.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 14, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Yea but you know where I stand on science. I believe science is good, it’s needed and it’s beneficial explaining to me how a tree grows. But it has its limitations because the origin of everything is built on sn assumption and changes over time as new info is discovered.


What about explaining it both ways. Take the rainbow or the birth of a child. Both are miracles from God or signs from God but at the same time can be explained by science. God knows people before they are even born but their birth can be explained by science. The rainbow can be explained by light refraction and is also a sign that the earth will never be flooded again by water.


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## Baroque Brass (Mar 15, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> What about explaining it both ways. Take the rainbow or the birth of a child. Both are miracles from God or signs from God but at the same time can be explained by science. God knows people before they are even born but their birth can be explained by science. The rainbow can be explained by light refraction and is also a sign that the earth will never be flooded again by water.


I’ve asked my wife this and I ask with all sincerity, if the birth of a child is a miracle from god, why do birth defects occur? 

And since science proves theres there’s no way the earth could have been flooded to the highest mountain top, I’ll go with atmospheric refraction causing a rainbow.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 15, 2022)

Baroque Brass said:


> I’ve asked my wife this and I ask with all sincerity, if the birth of a child is a miracle from god, why do birth defects occur?
> 
> And since science proves theres there’s no way the earth could have been flooded to the highest mountain top, I’ll go with atmospheric refraction causing a rainbow.





> if the birth of a child is a miracle from god, why do birth defects occur?


On the flip side, a child born to a couple who medically wasnt supposed to be able to have children, might be a "miracle" to them. Birth defect or not.
Or even some cases of Autism etc. where the child is brilliant in other ways.
But yeah rainbows, Im going with refraction.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 15, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> I will be glad to provide some examples, but I will kindly ask you to do likewise. I’m not talking about you alone here, but 90% of the those posting on your side of the discussion, I have have received received flimsy analogies, a few snide remarks, and demands of empirical evidence be typed in the text box. You guys seem way too intelligent to leave it there.  I would love to see some logic and provision of some of the evidence that has shaped your beliefs.  There has to more than the intellectual equivalent of “I just don’t believe because it’s someone else’s responsibility to make me believe and they haven’t done it”.
> I’m done for the night. Hopefully we can continue in the coming days. Night all.





> I would love to see some logic


Logic tells me that to claim something in fact exists, it can be universally proven to exist.
Name something else (outside of religion) that in fact exists but hasnt been proven to exist.


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## brutally honest (Mar 15, 2022)

Baroque Brass said:


> I’ve asked my wife this and I ask with all sincerity, if the birth of a child is a miracle from god, why do birth defects occur?



See post 200.  It might not explain everything, but it’s always a good starting point.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 15, 2022)

Baroque Brass said:


> I’ve asked my wife this and I ask with all sincerity, if the birth of a child is a miracle from god, why do birth defects occur?
> 
> And since science proves theres there’s no way the earth could have been flooded to the highest mountain top, I’ll go with atmospheric refraction causing a rainbow.


No answer on birth defects, same as "it was a miracle that God saved me in this terrible car wreck." Why didn't he just stop the car wreck?

I'm gonna go with the flood not being the whole wide world but the world as they knew it, meaning local.

Even as a Christian, I have those same questions. If God has seen all that happens, why doesn't he intervene before instead of after? Why not stop me from getting Covid instead of curing me "after" I get it? Same with a non-Christian, He sees that they will not accept Jesus, why not guide them to Jesus before they die or make them see the light instead of just His children?


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## Spotlite (Mar 15, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> No answer on birth defects, same as "it was a miracle that God saved me in this terrible car wreck." Why didn't he just stop the car wreck?
> 
> I'm gonna go with the flood not being the whole wide world but the world as they knew it, meaning local.
> 
> Even as a Christian, I have those same questions. If God has seen all that happens, why doesn't he intervene before instead of after? Why not stop me from getting Covid instead of curing me "after" I get it? Same with a non-Christian, He sees that they will not accept Jesus, why not guide them to Jesus before they die or make them see the light instead of just His children?





> No answer on birth defects, same as "it was a miracle that God saved me in this terrible car wreck." Why didn't he just stop the car wreck?
> 
> I'm gonna go with the flood not being the whole wide world but the world as they knew it, meaning local.


Yup on the flood thing - The great USA wasn`t known to exist in their little world back then.....I bet most never ventured more than 15 miles away from their little villages.

As far as birth defects, car wrecks, etc............Christians are accused of telling others what a God thinks, how He operates, what He wants and does not want.........yet their accusers turn around and have their own idea of how He should / should not work. Go figure.

He knows the plans He has for us and our little BB can only see "the little world as we know it". It rains on the just and unjust alike because were in the same world and all subject to a political administration such as the train wreck we have right now (sorry had to )


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## bullethead (Mar 15, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Yup on the flood thing - The great USA wasn`t known to exist in their little world back then.....I bet most never ventured more than 15 miles away from their little villages.


Not to mention that Archaeology, Geology, and History shows a flood that occurred in that region in that time period. And worldwide other cultures kept on going about their normal routines as if nothing happened,  because where they were nothing happened in their regions. 



Spotlite said:


> As far as birth defects, car wrecks, etc............Christians are accused of telling others what a God thinks, how He operates, what He wants and does not want.........yet their accusers turn around and have their own idea of how He should / should not work. Go figure.


Birth defects are the result of Genetics, Environmental issues, Drug use but the majority of defects are from undetectable and unexplainable causes. It wouldn't be fair to say those undetectable and unexplainable causes are from God but that is how many believers explain undetectable and unexplainable events ...God did it. Never credit him for the bad unexplainable happenings.
Car wrecks...multiple people can be maimed or die but the survivor will say god was watching over them. I just shake my head.

Regarding both sides thoughts on what a god would wouldn't do:
It makes a good argument that People create gods with human traits.
The Believers align with the concept of a god that best thinks and acts like them so they then feel that they can speak for that god and know its thoughts. Basically if they were god that's how they'd think and act so there has to be a god.
The Non Believers think there isn't a god because if there was it would think and act like they would. And because it doesn't there isn't a god.



Spotlite said:


> He knows the plans He has for us and our little BB can only see "the little world as we know it". It rains on the just and unjust alike because were in the same world and all subject to a political administration such as the train wreck we have right now (sorry had to )


I believe that you believe your god knows what happens....
But the way you say it you are speaking for your god nd I am not sure he OK'd that privilege.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 15, 2022)

No answer on birth defects, same as "it was a miracle that God saved me in this terrible car wreck." Why didn't he just stop the car wreck?  - artful dodger

I have a theory about this: if god just stopped the car wreck, and it did it in an obvious way (like all vehicles involved froze in place for a few seconds then slowly navigated out of harm's way) in front of dozens of witnesses, and security cameras that can be watched over & over, then EVERYONE would see the supernatural, undeniable miracle take place. *But that would not involve faith! *Modern miracles have to be subtle so that those with faith can interpret them as miracles, and the skeptics can dismiss them as a rare/lucky occurrence. If something amazing happens that seems to defy the laws of science b*ut can actually be eventually explained *to people of all types then it wouldn't involve faith, just understanding and logic.


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## bullethead (Mar 15, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> No answer on birth defects, same as "it was a miracle that God saved me in this terrible car wreck." Why didn't he just stop the car wreck?  - artful dodger
> 
> I have a theory about this: if god just stopped the car wreck, and it did it in an obvious way (like all vehicles involved froze in place for a few seconds then slowly navigated out of harm's way) in front of dozens of witnesses, and security cameras that can be watched over & over, then EVERYONE would see the supernatural, undeniable miracle take place. *But that would not involve faith! *Modern miracles have to be subtle so that those with faith can interpret them as miracles, and the skeptics can dismiss them as a rare/lucky occurrence. If something amazing happens that seems to defy the laws of science b*ut can actually be eventually explained *to people of all types then it wouldn't involve faith, just understanding and logic.


According to the beliefs of some Believers,  their god frequently blinds certain people from witnessing his greatest acts and events. When what would be literally monumental world changing events supposedly happened in the Bible and were recorded by no one except for an author who not only wasn't there but wrote it down decades to hundreds of years later....the excuse is that God only let the people see it or know about it who he wanted to know about it. I cannot help to think what better advertising for God than to allow non believers witness, record and share his incredible deeds. His followers are supposed to spread the word but he doesn't run his own ads.

Fast fwd to pausing time, rearranging autos out of harms way to avoid impact, blinding witnesses and scrambling camera pics and video....it doesn't happen in modern days like it did thousands of years ago.
If there is a god he obviously doesn't want to do anything or he is incapable of doing anything.
If there is no god screech-bang and witnesses/cameras tell the officers, ambulance and coroner what happened.
As the ability to record increased the involvement of gods decreased.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 15, 2022)

as for birth defects it's all about the math and odds. There is a long chain of countless things that have to happen to create a healthy functioning human being. It can't work perfectly every single time. 

IMHO I'm amazed by the whole idea that a microscope version/blueprint of myself grew into an improved version of myself, and that this type of occurrence happens thousands of time per day across the planet!


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## bullethead (Mar 15, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> as for birth defects it's all about the math and odds. There is a long chain of countless things that have to happen to create a healthy functioning human being. It can't work perfectly every single time.
> 
> IMHO I'm amazed by the whole idea that a microscope version/blueprint of myself grew into an improved version of myself, and that this type of occurrence happens thousands of time per day across the planet!


Why do you suppose that regarding infant defects and or death math beats god at life sometimes but some people think math doesn't beat god at creating life on our planet and possibly many other places in the Universe?


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 15, 2022)

"I cannot help to think what better advertising for God than to allow non believers witness, record and share his incredible deeds. His followers are supposed to spread the word but he doesn't run his own ads." - bullet head

But again, faith has to be the "X factor" to make an event a miracle. Believing in god after god literally reveals himself "in the flesh" or at least in a way that our logic accepts the proof, that would be taking a shortcut! Faith in an unseen, nor understood god would be taken out of the equation completely. If everyone saw something so awesome that nobody could deny it, that wouldn't be fair to the believers that spent their whole life living in faith despite having no actual proof accepted by the unbelievers. 

Apparently (correct me if I'm wrong) the one and only time EVERYBODY - even unbelievers - will see god is when everyone is dead (judgement day) and are forced to bend a knee, and it's too late for the unbelievers to do anything about it. Talk about a plot twist/surprise ending!


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 15, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Why do you suppose that regarding infant defects and or death math beats god at life sometimes but some people think math doesn't beat god at creating life on our planet and possibly many other places in the Universe?



no doubt math is a HUGE factor in life existing at all. In the past few years telescope advancements have revealed that there are many billions of galaxies with billions of solar systems. But the basic chemical elements that enable life as we know it (whether simple or complicated) seem to be very common in the universe. My point is you might beat 1 in 1,000 odds against life forming. You might beat 1 in 1,000,000 odds - lottery winners do that all the time - but you can't beat 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 odds so that's why I think that life is inevitable in other parts of the universe. There is no way earth can be the only planet with life. 

Is there life in our solar system? Not likely, but beating 1 in 9 odds is no big deal.
But I don't think earth can beat 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 odds. It might even be 1 in infinity odds since the universe is expanding and possibly infinite.

Also planets that do not yet meet the conditions for life may soon develop those conditions (earth used to be lifeless and will again be lifeless when the sun gets too hot) so that's another factor to consider.

So why no contact with anyone else? The distances between planets are too vast - there may not be a propulsion system powerful enough to get here nor even a communications system (radio or whatever) that can deliver intelligible data. 

Also EVOLUTION most likely varies greatly from planet to planet (look at all the variance just between species here on earth) and perhaps nobody has attempted to communicate with, nor visit another planet. 

I want to live to be 100+ *BECAUSE I HAVE FAITH* in science and mankind in general (lots of smart folks on earth) and firmly believe that we humans will find solid proof of other life in the universe before I die.* I ALSO HAVE FAITH *that we will find the X factor that turns non-living chemicals into self-replicating living things
before I die.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 15, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> "I cannot help to think what better advertising for God than to allow non believers witness, record and share his incredible deeds. His followers are supposed to spread the word but he doesn't run his own ads." - bullet head
> 
> But again, faith has to be the "X factor" to make an event a miracle. Believing in god after god literally reveals himself "in the flesh" or at least in a way that our logic accepts the proof, that would be taking a shortcut! Faith in an unseen, nor understood god would be taken out of the equation completely. If everyone saw something so awesome that nobody could deny it, that wouldn't be fair to the believers that spent their whole life living in faith despite having no actual proof accepted by the unbelievers.
> 
> Apparently (correct me if I'm wrong) the one and only time EVERYBODY - even unbelievers - will see god is when everyone is dead (judgement day) and are forced to bend a knee, and it's too late for the unbelievers to do anything about it. Talk about a plot twist/surprise ending!


Again though, like an athlete that comes through in the clutch, you gain a lot of fans who suddenly have faith in you for the rest of the season who otherswise didn't know of you.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 15, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> no doubt math is a HUGE factor in life existing at all. In the past few years telescope advancements have revealed that there are many billions of galaxies with billions of solar systems. But the basic chemical elements that enable life as we know it (whether simple or complicated) seem to be very common in the universe. My point is you might beat 1 in 1,000 odds against life forming. You might beat 1 in 1,000,000 odds - lottery winners do that all the time - but you can't beat 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 odds so that's why I think that life is inevitable in other parts of the universe. There is no way earth can be the only planet with life.
> 
> Is there life in our solar system? Not likely, but beating 1 in 9 odds is no big deal.
> But I don't think earth can beat 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 odds. It might even be 1 in infinity odds since the universe is expanding and possibly infinite.
> ...



There won’t be an X factor (other than the One that we already know about), but I wish you luck with proof of life outside of Earth.  With a handle like “oldfella” I’m nervous for you on that.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 15, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> There won’t be an X factor (other than the One that we already know about), but I wish you luck with proof of life outside of Earth.  With a handle like “oldfella” I’m nervous for you on that.


3/4 of the people on the planet do not know about what you think you know about. Your knowledge of a god is as equal to the knowledge of life in another galaxy. It is all guesswork based off of wishes.
You say we cannot know what resides in a distant galaxy but you claim to know what lies beyond and outside of the most distant part of the universe. 
I hope you see why I am skeptical.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 15, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> No answer on birth defects, same as "it was a miracle that God saved me in this terrible car wreck." Why didn't he just stop the car wreck?  - artful dodger
> 
> I have a theory about this: if god just stopped the car wreck, and it did it in an obvious way (like all vehicles involved froze in place for a few seconds then slowly navigated out of harm's way) in front of dozens of witnesses, and security cameras that can be watched over & over, then EVERYONE would see the supernatural, undeniable miracle take place. *But that would not involve faith! *Modern miracles have to be subtle so that those with faith can interpret them as miracles, and the skeptics can dismiss them as a rare/lucky occurrence. If something amazing happens that seems to defy the laws of science b*ut can actually be eventually explained *to people of all types then it wouldn't involve faith, just understanding and logic.


And you’re right, there’s no faith in that. Scripture says it’s impossible to please God without faith. True faith means you’re relying and trusting with no reservations. The Christian is going to go the faith route because that’s what is believed.

When you think about it both the believer and non believer has faith in something. The believer is going to give God credit. Science is where most non believers will go to explain something such as gravity by saying what goes up must come down.

There’s nothing tangible about gravity itself but science is telling you that’s “gravity” that’s responsible for that. Science doesn’t really ever prove gravity exist other than agreeing this is gravity and saying this is gravity.


Then of course we have dark matter……and I really want to prove to a blind man that the sky is blue without showing him pictures.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 15, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> And you’re right, there’s no faith in that. Scripture says it’s impossible to please God without faith. True faith means you’re relying and trusting with no reservations. The Christian is going to go the faith route because that’s what is believed.
> 
> When you think about it both the believer and non believer has faith in something. The believer is going to give God credit. Science is where most non believers will go to explain something such as gravity by saying what goes up must come down.
> 
> ...


What percentage of faith does God require from a believer?


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 15, 2022)

bullethead said:


> 3/4 of the people on the planet do not know about what you think you know about. Your knowledge of a god is as equal to the knowledge of life in another galaxy. It is all guesswork based off of wishes.
> You say we cannot know what resides in a distant galaxy but you claim to know what lies beyond and outside of the most distant part of the universe.
> I hope you see why I am skeptical.



Well, you might be reading too much into what I said. Either way, proof of the poster’s X factor isn’t real and won’t be found.  Bank on it. 

Speaking of things not adding up, it requires much more faith to believe raw elements floating adrift in space on any surface at any temperature under any conditions magically become life and then turn into advanced life…


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 15, 2022)

bullethead said:


> What percentage of faith does God require from a believer?


Edited: I read your question wrong.

100%.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 15, 2022)

bullethead said:


> 3/4 of the people on the planet do not know about what you think you know about. Your knowledge of a god is as equal to the knowledge of life in another galaxy. It is all guesswork based off of wishes.
> You say we cannot know what resides in a distant galaxy but you claim to know what lies beyond and outside of the most distant part of the universe.
> I hope you see why I am skeptical.



Also, I really do hate that it hasn’t been this way for many of you here, but at this point in my life, my faith hasn’t had to remain blind. I’ve known God in tangible ways and heard His voice directing me at key points and during key decisions in my life.  God knows during these times I wasn’t demanding He prove himself to me or do a trick to affirm my faith.  I wasn’t even expecting or insisting on the help He supplied.  I wish all reading this could know what I’m saying is true, but I’m sure your heels are dug in at this point and your minds won’t be changed, but it’s still the truth.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 15, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Well, you might be reading too much into what I said. Either way, proof of the poster’s X factor isn’t real and won’t be found.  Bank on it.
> 
> Speaking of things not adding up, it requires much more faith to believe raw elements floating adrift in space on any surface at any temperature under any conditions magically become life and then turn into advanced life…


It takes an understanding of immense amounts of time (14 Billion Years) with an unimaginable amount of atoms, particles,elements, matter, gases, liquids,, chemicals, solids colliding and forming. Science clearly shows how these pieces smashing into each other , forming, altering and reforming grew into planets. The constant mixing of everything I mentioned above formed new elements.  You cannot tell me that you didn't learn about mixing hydrogen and oxygen in school. Fish cannot live in either one by themselves but bond 1 oxygen atom to 2 hydrogen atoms and you have water. This mixing of various atoms took place a Bajillion times a second for billions and billions of years and still does.
Life wasn't impossible. Life was inevitable. 
Go to a casino and pull the slot handle one time. Good luck.
Pull every slot handle at every casino every second of every day for 10 Billion years and you gonna Live brother.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 15, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Edited: I read your question wrong.
> 
> 100%.


So you are typing this with both hands while driving? ?


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 15, 2022)

bullethead said:


> It takes an understanding of immense amounts of time (14 Billion Years) with an unimaginable amount of atoms, particles,elements, matter, gases, liquids,, chemicals, solids colliding and forming. Science clearly shows how these pieces smashing into each other , forming, altering and reforming grew into planets. The constant mixing of everything I mentioned above formed new elements.  You cannot tell me that you didn't learn about mixing hydrogen and oxygen in school. Fish cannot live in either one by themselves but bond 1 oxygen atom to 2 hydrogen atoms and you have water. This mixing of various atoms took place a Bajillion times a second for billions and billions of years and still does.
> Life wasn't impossible. Life was inevitable.
> Go to a casino and pull the slot handle one time. Good luck.
> Pull every slot handle at every casino every second of every day for 10 Billion years and you gonna Live brother.



Sorry, no. It won’t happen. This one is a stretch too far, won’t fly and won’t be proven.  I thought athiests wanted proof for things to be able to believe. Catchy phrases are far from it.  Again I say, this nonsense requires much more faith than the truth!


----------



## bullethead (Mar 15, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Also, I really do hate that it hasn’t been this way for many of you here, but at this point in my life, my faith hasn’t had to remain blind. I’ve known God in tangible ways and heard His voice directing me at key points and during key decisions in my life.  God knows during these times I wasn’t demanding He prove himself to me or do a trick to affirm my faith.  I wasn’t even expecting or insisting on the help He supplied.  I wish all reading this could know what I’m saying is true, but I’m sure your heels are dug in at this point and your minds won’t be changed, but it’s still the truth.


What did God's voice sound like? 100% sincere


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 15, 2022)

bullethead said:


> What did God's voice sound like? 100% sincere



It didn’t. It wasn’t words that resounded one syllable at the time like a spoken phrase. One instance that is the most recent, it was just there, injected into my internal monologue, unmistakeable from a subconscious inclination.  It was not what I wanted to hear. It was disappointing in fact, but probably the only way my path would have been altered.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 15, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Sorry, no. It won’t happen. This one is a stretch too far, won’t fly and won’t be proven.  I thought athiests wanted proof for things to be able to believe. Catchy phrases are far from it.  Again I say, this nonsense requires much more faith than the truth!


You are a result of this nonsense. Because you don't understand it or believe it doesn't change a thing.
It is the best possible explanation based off of the best current information. It can change if new information becomes available.

On the other hand,
An Invsible magician in the sky abbra-cabbra'd everything in 6 days is so much more believable.
His all powerful title took a hit when it took 6 days to do it and he had to rest on the 7th because it whooped him....but definitely no nonsense going on there.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 15, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> It didn’t. It wasn’t words that resounded one syllable at the time like a spoken phrase. One instance that is the most recent, it was just there, injected into my internal monologue, unmistakeable from a subconscious inclination.  It was not what I wanted to hear. It was disappointing in fact, but probably the only way my path would have been altered.


Did he say I am god at any point?
Could it have been an entity bent on deceiving you?


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 15, 2022)

bullethead said:


> So you are typing this with both hands while driving? ?


No……………….don’t tempt God either. 

Faith isn’t a ticket to live careless. Scripture also says when you’ve done all you can do, stand. It also says a man that doesn’t work doesn’t need to eat. It also says the righteous isn’t going to be forsaken or begging for bread. 

So when one puts all scripture together and uses them like they’re supposed to be used one can come away with the understanding that if one will do their part God will make a way. And, one shouldn’t skip work to lay in the middle of the road asleep all day waiting on bread to fall out of the sky.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 15, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> No……………….don’t tempt God either.
> 
> Faith isn’t a ticket to live careless. Scripture also says when you’ve done all you can do, stand. It also says a man that doesn’t work doesn’t need to eat. It also says the righteous isn’t going to be forsaken or begging for bread.
> 
> So when one puts all scripture together and uses them like they’re supposed to be used one can come away with the understanding that if one will do their part God will make a way. And, one shouldn’t skip work to lay in the middle of the road asleep all day waiting on bread to fall out of the sky.


All scripture together?
How does slavery, spoils of war, rape, incest, etc etc fit in there?
You don't have to answer that. There is no excuse.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 15, 2022)

bullethead said:


> All scripture together?
> How does slavery, spoils of war, rape, incest, etc etc fit in there?
> You don't have to answer that. There is no excuse.



I will never offer an excuse for those things. That was old testament. Different ways, different people, different laws. Few hundred years ago you could call a man out in a gun fight and it wasn`t murder.

But again, I don`t get hung up there because to me it is history, just like American history, all of it is not good but all of it got us where we are.

No where without cherry picking some of the old can anyone justify any of those things with scripture today. Using all scripture one will also understand why all those things are no longer allowed.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 15, 2022)

bullethead said:


> You are a result of this nonsense. Because you don't understand it or believe it doesn't change a thing.
> It is the best possible explanation based off of the best current information. It can change if new information becomes available.
> 
> On the other hand,
> ...



I completely cancel your opinion out with mine you do realize. They are of equal value. You are the creation of God. The same one you belittle.  Your infinite monkey on infinite typewriters theory is pretty flimsy ground to risk your self on, but it’s certainly your choice.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 15, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I will never offer an excuse for those things. That was old testament. Different ways, different people. Few hundred years ago you could call a man out in a gun fight and it wasn`t murder.


Creation was OT also. It's the same god. Cherry picking when to listen to gods words just doesn't work.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 15, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Did he say I am god at any point?
> Could it have been an entity bent on deceiving you?



The “from:” wasn’t necessary, just as your father speaking to you wouldn’t be.  This wasn’t our first time meeting, haha. No.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 15, 2022)

bullethead said:


> So you are typing this with both hands while driving? ?


And, BTW....................that was a slick response you gave there^^^^


----------



## bullethead (Mar 15, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I completely cancel your opinion out with mine you do realize. They are of equal value. You are the creation of God. The same one you belittle.  Your infinite monkey on infinite typewriters theory is pretty flimsy ground to risk your self on, but it’s certainly your choice.


But I am not claiming monkeys on a typewriter. I am using verified scientific evidence that points to a more likely than not scenario.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 15, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Creation was OT also. It's the same god. Cherry picking when to listen to gods words just doesn't work.


Of course creation is history and old testament....after Adam and Even we were born of woman, not formed from the dust of the ground. 

If one says they hear God`s words telling them to go rape someone, they are listening to their friends (Jack, Hosea and Jim - 3 lickers)

What does not work is using the old laws and ways to throw God under the bus after claiming to know the Bible. One should know why those ways were those ways then, and not ways to live by now. It is not cherry picking when to listen to God`s words, it is knowing what words applied to a certain people and time for a reason and then knowing what words are used to listen to to know why "it happening anymore".


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 15, 2022)

bullethead said:


> But I am not claiming monkeys on a typewriter. I am using verified scientific evidence that points to a more likely than not scenario.



“More likely”?  It’s more likely my aunt would be my uncle if she had a satchel, but she doesn’t.  If there could be life accidentally formed, you’re telling me the scientist you blindly believe in can’t recreate that?  Afterall, they have elements, heat, time, etc. Come on man!  Flimsy.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 15, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> “More likely”?  It’s more likely my aunt would be my uncle if she had a satchel, but she doesn’t.  If there could be life accidentally formed, you’re telling me the scientist you blindly believe in can’t recreate that?  Afterall, they have elements, heat, time, etc. Come on man!  Flimsy.


Again you are off.
The conditions in which Earth formed differed from when life formed which are vastly different conditions than now. Modern man has not been here long let alone modern science. 50 years is not 14 billion. Neither is 6000yrs.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 15, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Of course creation is history and old testament....after Adam and Even we were born of woman, not formed from the dust of the ground.
> 
> If one says they hear God`s words telling them to go rape someone, they are listening to their friends (Jack, Hosea and Jim - 3 lickers)
> 
> What does not work is using the old laws and ways to throw God under the bus after claiming to know the Bible. One should know why those ways were those ways then, and not ways to live by now. It is not cherry picking when to listen to God`s words, it is knowing what words applied to a certain people and time for a reason and then knowing what words are used to listen to to know why "it happening anymore".


I like the claiming to know the bible part. But I take into consideration the history of the culture, history of the religion, the history of separate factions within the religions,  the transition from Judiasm to early Christianity before the Romans got involved, the history of Roman involvement and anonymous authors who weren't there when I separate the OT and NT


----------



## bullethead (Mar 15, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> “More likely”?  It’s more likely my aunt would be my uncle if she had a satchel, but she doesn’t.  If there could be life accidentally formed, you’re telling me the scientist you blindly believe in can’t recreate that?  Afterall, they have elements, heat, time, etc. Come on man!  Flimsy.


https://www.nasa.gov/content/nasa-ames-reproduces-the-building-blocks-of-life-in-laboratory

https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/news/863/nasa-study-reproduces-origins-of-life-on-ocean-floor/


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 15, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Also, I really do hate that it hasn’t been this way for many of you here, but at this point in my life, my faith hasn’t had to remain blind. I’ve known God in tangible ways and heard His voice directing me at key points and during key decisions in my life.  God knows during these times I wasn’t demanding He prove himself to me or do a trick to affirm my faith.  I wasn’t even expecting or insisting on the help He supplied.  I wish all reading this could know what I’m saying is true, but I’m sure your heels are dug in at this point and your minds won’t be changed, but it’s still the truth.


Whats your thoughts on believers in other gods also having the same experiences with the god they believe in?


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 15, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> As black and white as your analogy is, it’s the same for Jesus. Give your life to Him and you will become a new person with a new purpose and future. In this case I’m the guy that stuck the screw driver in the socket and got shocked. Now I’m trying to tell you what will happen if you follow suit. You guys are reluctant to believe in the electricity and you have no plans to stick the screwdriver in socket to find out. You may just continue to debate the subject.


You don't know how wrong you are. I stuck my screwdriver in the outlet. I went and got saved, baptized, and all that. Went to church every time the doors were open for nearly two decades. The electricity just ain't there. or at least it ain't AC. Most of the folks in here have a similar story.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 15, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> .
> As a kid I thought everybody was Catholic.


I honestly never met a Catholic until I was a grown man and encountered my first Mexican. They just aren't any around here, or at least, weren't in those days.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 15, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Whats your thoughts on believers in other gods also having the same experiences with the god they believe in?


https://www.islamicity.org/11433/communicating-with-allah/


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 15, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I like the claiming to know the bible part. But I take into consideration the history of the culture, history of the religion, the history of separate factions within the religions,  the transition from Judiasm to early Christianity before the Romans got involved, the history of Roman involvement and anonymous authors who weren't there when I separate the OT and NT


Most definitely. Our church likes the history, too. But both history and Bible will still leave things unanswered. For the Christian, that’s where we credit God.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 15, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I honestly never met a Catholic until I was a grown man and encountered my first Mexican. They just aren't any around here, or at least, weren't in those days.


I read that as "until those dang yankees started moving here" 
I left yankee land at 17 when I went in the Marines. I was shocked at all the other denominations/religions I found out about.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 15, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> And you’re right, there’s no faith in that. Scripture says it’s impossible to please God without faith. True faith means you’re relying and trusting with no reservations. The Christian is going to go the faith route because that’s what is believed.
> 
> When you think about it both the believer and non believer has faith in something. The believer is going to give God credit. Science is where most non believers will go to explain something such as gravity by saying what goes up must come down.
> 
> ...


What would be wrong in having faith that God made science? Do you think science is from God or something man made up to describe God's creation? 
Take the rainbow as an example, is the science of it all just man's way of explaining it? Most Christians see it as both science and God.
Moving on to healthcare, is the circulation system something God created using pipes and a pump or is it just a way for humans to explain God's creation. 
We now have pumps & pipes that do all sorts of tasks. Is this a copy of God's science or just a way man thought up to describe God's creation?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 15, 2022)

bullethead said:


> What percentage of faith does God require from a believer?


Also is wondering or questioning really from a lack of faith? Why can't I have faith in God but also wonder about the science of it all such as the Ark of the Covenant or Manna.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 15, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Most definitely. Our church likes the history, too. But both history and Bible will still leave things unanswered. For the Christian, that’s where we credit God.


Sadly, your Church uses selective history.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 15, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Sorry, no. It won’t happen. This one is a stretch too far, won’t fly and won’t be proven.  I thought athiests wanted proof for things to be able to believe. Catchy phrases are far from it.  Again I say, this nonsense requires much more faith than the truth!


Just an example of a post we discussed earlier. You the Christian just called the other guy's concept "nonsense." Yet you claim they are the one's who make fun of Christians. Thus the rebuttal you  received.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 15, 2022)

bullethead said:


> https://www.nasa.gov/content/nasa-ames-reproduces-the-building-blocks-of-life-in-laboratory
> 
> https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/news/863/nasa-study-reproduces-origins-of-life-on-ocean-floor/



Sweet!  Have them make my daughter a unicorn please!  Let me know when they get that done, but if not I’ll settle for any single cell organism, ever, as well. I won’t hold my breath as they will never succeed.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 15, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Just an example of a post we discussed earlier. You the Christian just called the other guy's concept "nonsense." Yet you claim they are the one's who make fun of Christians. Thus the rebuttal you just received.



I haven’t made fun of anyone, nor do I care who they make fun of. I’m secure in my faith, and have openly wondered why most A’s don’t seem to be. I won’t be made to feel sorry for seeing the blatantly obvious stretch of all scientific stretches in unproven theory be used as a “better” or “easier” story to believe.  I’m still allowed to have those opinions and state them, right?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 15, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> What would be wrong in having faith that God made science? Do you think science is from God or something man made up to describe God's creation?
> Take the rainbow as an example, is the science of it all just man's way of explaining it? Most Christians see it as both science and God.
> Moving on to healthcare, is the circulation system something God created using pipes and a pump or is it just a way for humans to explain God's creation.
> We now have pumps & pipes that do all sorts of tasks. Is this a copy of God's science or just a way man thought up to describe God's creation?


Nothing wrong with wanting to believe God made science until science discredits God's science in the Bible.
Things like this are why there are 40,000 denominations. Each one tweaks their beliefs enough to align their thoughts to try to intertwine what is clearly separate information inside and outside of the bible.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 15, 2022)

Jesus said "I have other sheep that are not of this fold." 

Aliens?


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 15, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Whats your thoughts on believers in other gods also having the same experiences with the god they believe in?



I’m not concerned because it’s not a second hand statement or information to me. What’s your thoughts?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 15, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I haven’t made fun of anyone, nor do I care who they make fun of. I’m secure in my faith, and have openly wondered why most A’s don’t seem to be. I won’t be made to feel sorry for seeing the blatantly obvious stretch of all scientific stretches in unproven theory be used as a “better” or “easier” story to believe.  I’m still allowed to have those opinions and state them, right?


Yes you do have that right. I never said you were making fun of them. Just pointing out that it isn't always the Atheist or Oneness believers or Catholics or Democrats that bring on the negative posts.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 15, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Sweet!  Have them make my daughter a unicorn please!  Let me know when they get that done, but if not I’ll settle for any single cell organism, ever, as well. I won’t hold my breath as they will never succeed.


No can do, I don't have telepathic conversations with them.
All in Time, again. No need to hold your breath.

Next time you chat with the big guy ask what the serial number is on my Browning Sweet 16. I'll trade you that Unicorn for it.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 15, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I’m not concerned because it’s not a second hand statement or information to me. What’s your thoughts?


My thoughts?
I believe they/you believe they/you had contact with the god they/you believe in. In other words nobody is telling a lie, they actually believe their god was responsible.
I find it interesting thats its always the god that they happen to believe in.
That ^ points me in the direction of human psychology being responsible.
I think its a personal experience that only means something to the person that has it.
I dont think anybody else should be expected to believe it because it didnt happen to them.


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## bullethead (Mar 15, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Sweet!  Have them make my daughter a unicorn please!  Let me know when they get that done, but if not I’ll settle for any single cell organism, ever, as well. I won’t hold my breath as they will never succeed.


https://www.nist.gov/news-events/ne...ple-synthetic-cell-grows-and-divides-normally


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## Spotlite (Mar 15, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> What would be wrong in having faith that God made science? Do you think science is from God or something man made up to describe God's creation?
> Take the rainbow as an example, is the science of it all just man's way of explaining it? Most Christians see it as both science and God.
> Moving on to healthcare, is the circulation system something God created using pipes and a pump or is it just a way for humans to explain God's creation.
> We now have pumps & pipes that do all sorts of tasks. Is this a copy of God's science or just a way man thought up to describe God's creation?


I believe He did make science. To me, science is no different than religion. Man has their ideas with both. I don’t believe that either can be used to prove God - only God proves God.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 15, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Sadly, your Church uses selective history.




Not quite. What do we rely on for 30,000 year old history? See below.,


Spotlite said:


> I believe He did make science. To me, science is no different than religion. Man has their ideas with both. I don’t believe that either can be used to prove God - only God proves God.


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## buckpasser (Mar 15, 2022)

bullethead said:


> No can do, I don't have telepathic conversations with them.
> All in Time, again. No need to hold your breath.
> 
> Next time you chat with the big guy ask what the serial number is on my Browning Sweet 16. I'll trade you that Unicorn for it.



I don’t ask God to do any tricks, as I stated earlier.


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## buckpasser (Mar 15, 2022)

bullethead said:


> https://www.nist.gov/news-events/ne...ple-synthetic-cell-grows-and-divides-normally



Designed simple cell. Cool!  It was “designed” though. Not happenstance, as you believe life on Earth might well have come from. “Designed” is how I say it happened.


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## bullethead (Mar 15, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Not quite. What do we rely on for 30,000 year old history? See below.,


Man has their ideas with both, but with science the ideas become hypothesis,  those get tested, the tests get retested and retested and retested so they can be replicated and confirmed by groups of peers. Only then do they become Scientific Theory. Theory in this case does not mean guess. It means this is the best answer using all available information.
Science cannot prove God, leprechauns or Flying Spaghetti Monsters. There is nothing to test.
What is God's process for proving god and who reviews it?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 15, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I don’t ask God to do any tricks, as I stated earlier.


I didn't say it is a trick. Is asking God to watch over a sick friend a trick? You would be asking God for help and confirmation.


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## bullethead (Mar 15, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Designed simple cell. Cool!  It was “designed” though. Not happenstance, as you believe life on Earth might well have come from. “Designed” is how I say it happened.


Goal posts moved again. You asked for evidence that science use conditions like early Earth to start life.  I showed you that evidence and then that wasn't good enough so you puffed your chest and snidley asked for a single cell. I showed you the single cell and then you are looking at the refs to call a foul!
Scientists took chemicals and elements and started the process of Life. They used that as a base to turn those into a cell.
You said "Have them make...." They did. And now you are still not satisfid when you got exactly what you asked for.
Matter isn't alive, it is the chemical reactions in atoms and molecules that make it Live.
Science has replicated what naturally occured billions of years ago in Nature. You asked for it, got it, dont like it.

You asked this not me


> Sweet! Have them make my daughter a unicorn please! Let me know when they get that done, but if not I’ll settle for any single cell organism, ever, as well. I won’t hold my breath as they will never succeed.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 15, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Goal posts moved again. You asked for evidence that science use conditions like early Earth to start life.  I showed you that evidence and then that wasn't good enough so you puffed your chest and snidley asked for a single cell. I showed you the single cell and then you are looking at the refs to call a foul!
> Scientists took chemicals and elements and started the process of Life. They used that as a base to turn those into a cell.
> You said "Have them make...." They did. And now you are still not satisfid when you got exactly what you asked for.
> Matter isn't alive, it is the chemical reactions in atoms and molecules that make it Live.
> ...



Dude. Synthetic cells like the one you listed are far from creating life.  It’s installing some synthesized parts into a previously existing host gutted cell.  It’s like me saying I created a car when I put a bar stool into a gutted Ford Taurus.  Again, far from creating even a single cell organism, which they never will.  No goals moved.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 15, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I didn't say it is a trick. Is asking God to watch over a sick friend a trick? You would be asking God for help and confirmation.



I’d ask His will be done and respectfully tell him what mine is.  Call that whatever you want. Asking God for serial numbers is a trick.


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## buckpasser (Mar 15, 2022)

24 pages now and still, nothing adds up, to anyone.  Except what already added up, to everyone.


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## ky55 (Mar 15, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Most definitely. Our church likes the history, too. But both history and Bible will still leave things unanswered. For the Christian, that’s where we credit God.



I had to go back and read that a second time.
The first time I thought you said that’s where we create a god.


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## bullethead (Mar 15, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Dude. Synthetic cells like the one you listed are far from creating life.  It’s installing some synthesized parts into a previously existing host gutted cell.  It’s like me saying I created a car when I put a bar stool into a gutted Ford Taurus.  Again, far from creating even a single cell organism, which they never will.  No goals moved.


Is your Taurus a 2010? Because your description above is how they made synthetic cells back then.
Now they use synthetic membranes,  no host cell needed.


----------



## 1eyefishing (Mar 15, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> 24 pages now and still, nothing adds up, to anyone.  Except what already added up, to everyone.


A couple things added up or at least lined up it's lined up for me about the original questions. Even if indirectly and through a couple side conversations.
I've always identified as a Christian and if somebody asked me I'm not going to say I'm not. Just not very uneducated about it and The Bible. I learned just enough from the methodists to realize (I believe, so there) it's the method by which you live that gets you where you want to be. Not getting dunked in a pond or knowing as fact things that cannot be known. I've come to the point in my life where I can finally put it on coast, kids out of the house for years, etc... I figure if I'm going to identify as a Christian I might/could/shoud try to be a better one.
I checked Google about Gnostic churches near me (Thx @NCHillbilly)  and found several within a few miles. Just might stop in the Agape Christian Center near me soon.

I appreciate the conversation, especially the on topic stuff  but it's got way down to the bottom of the spiral that I can see it usually goes to.
Yall gonna have to find a different place to argue cause this one is done, might go poof soon.
Thx...


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 15, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Creation was OT also. It's the same god. Cherry picking when to listen to gods words just doesn't work.



indeed, god is the same always, all the time, he bever changes. Jesus was a Jew and didn't want to rock the boat on their culture, and even mentions OT prophesy and mentions Noah at one point. So the OT stories of incest, slaying hundreds of thousands of god's people's enemies and killing their children, flooding the entire world, etc. are part & parsel of the entire bible. 

"Speaking of things not adding up, it requires much more faith to believe raw elements floating adrift in space on any surface at any temperature under any conditions magically become life and then turn into advanced life…" 

Excuse me? Nobody here claims that raw elements "on any surface at any temperature under any conditions" will become life! If that were the case nearly every planet and moon would have life. Probably only 1 out of 1,000,000,000,000 planets will develop life. But obviously it happens, because here we are, discussing the very subject. 
Thus it happened at least once and we are the proof of it! But have you ever seen only "one" of anything? I haven't. Life does indeed develop in the big old universe but it's very, very, very rare because so many conditions have to be met. 

Just look at all the stars at night. But those are just the stars humans can see with the naked eye. There are trillions more that we can't see. Many stars have planets. It would take a lot of faith to think that there isn't life circling one of those stars.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 15, 2022)

What does not work is using the old laws and ways to throw God under the bus after claiming to know the Bible. One should know why those ways were those ways then, and not ways to live by now. It is not cherry picking when to listen to God`s words, it is knowing what words applied to a certain people and time for a reason and then knowing what words are used to listen to to know why "it happening anymore". 

I get that the OT ways are "old ways" and society changes, but GOD'S CHARACTER DOES NOT CHANGE. The same God did the things and said the things that the bible tells us about from Genesis to Revelation.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 15, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Jesus said "I have other sheep that are not of this fold."
> 
> Aliens?


Could be, but I think it's a typo:

"I have other sheets, that are not this old."

But I will research that "other sheep" comment. That is really strange!


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 16, 2022)

As for creating life from raw materials even if a process is developed, tested and can be replicated and studied some people will say "okay, science can tell us how life can be created but not WHY life was created in the beginning!"

POW! In your FACE, science!  
Faith 1
Science 0


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## WaltL1 (Mar 16, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> 24 pages now and still, nothing adds up, to anyone.  Except what already added up, to everyone.


Thats where you have to decide if it was all a waste of time because nobody changed their mind about believing or not believing.
Or.... 
You learned something about other peoples beliefs or non beliefs.
Enjoyed the debate just because it makes you think.
Learned something about your own belief or disbelief.
Etc.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 16, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Dude. Synthetic cells like the one you listed are far from creating life.  It’s installing some synthesized parts into a previously existing host gutted cell.  It’s like me saying I created a car when I put a bar stool into a gutted Ford Taurus.  Again, far from creating even a single cell organism, which they never will.  No goals moved.





> which they never will.


Im betting alot folks said "they never will"-
Sail AROUND the world without falling off the edge.
Get in a contraption and fly from here to there while eating a meal and ordering a drink with ice while you watch the in-flight movie.
Walk around on another planet.
Tap on a little board and have conversations with people around the world.
And most importantly.. have a pizza show up at your door in 30 mins. or less......


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## NCHillbilly (Mar 16, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> As for creating life from raw materials even if a process is developed, tested and can be replicated and studied some people will say "okay, science can tell us how life can be created but not WHY life was created in the beginning!"
> 
> POW! In your FACE, science!
> Faith 1
> Science 0


Why is it a contest? Science exists. If you believe God created this universe, then he also created the natural laws and properties that define the fundamental principals of science. I don't see why God and science are in the octagon slugging it out in Christian's minds, because they are one and the same.


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## Spotlite (Mar 16, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Why is it a contest? Science exists. If you believe God created this universe, then he also created the natural laws and properties that define the fundamental principals of science. I don't see why God and science are in the octagon slugging it out in Christian's minds, because they are one and the same.





> I don't see why God and science are in the octagon slugging it out in Christian's minds,


They’re not.


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## 660griz (Mar 16, 2022)

What is, and always will be, "God of the gaps". Just a lot less gaps now. Since we come out of the trees, we have been asking questions we don't know the answers to. Not a huge problem unless folks start making up answers instead of saying, "I don't know." I guess when you are 'chief' or 'the smart one in the village', I don't know, doesn't seem like an option.

So, if you look at religion, and the creation of religion in that manner. i.e. Religion was created to fill in the gaps, give relatives of dying folks hope, help folks quit fermented grains and kick other habits like stealing, killing, etc, it all makes sense. Religion was needed, and apparently still is, to lessen folks anxiety over death and to keep some control over folks that have no willpower.

However, if you look at it from the perspective of a God, a God with no beginning or end. Floated around by him/her self for eternity, and then decided, "I am going to create a lot of things, living things. And most of these things will need to eat and drink and some will need to eat and drink each other and fight for resources. I will create creatures whose only purpose is to torment other life in order to live. That'll be fun to watch. I could create a bunch of creatures like me that don't need light, or food, or air but, sounds pretty boring. They wouldn't get in to any trouble then. They need tests, and suffering and then the  winners can come float with me for eternity and they will appreciate it more since they worked so hard to get here. I will put them on a planet that only has a little space that they can actually live on. A planet that is very slowly tearing itself apart and drifting away from the heat source they need and will eventually burn out. And occasionally, I will throw large rocks at the planet for fun. Oh, and I am only going to tell a few about me. The rest will get the knowledge from the 'telephone' game."

I haven't even gotten in to the 'punishment matching the crime', yet. Love me or..."Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels." Sounds a bit harsh. Sounds more along the lines of control than the actual words from a loving creator.

Anyway, just a few things that just don't add up.

For the sake of argument, let's say everything in the Bible is true. Or, the Quran, whatever. Why, after reading, would anyone want to worship that entity? Did we read the same book? Dianetics was a better read. Neither book was life changing. 

So, science and God? Who would win in a race, a unicorn or a horse?


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## WaltL1 (Mar 16, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> They’re not.


Ive had conversations with a number of Christians who have a less than favorable view of science. Maybe not slugging it out but Ive heard quite a few times that science isnt "fair" because it doesnt take into consideration the Christian God. 
Science is a dirty word to a number (certainly not all) of Christians.


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## bullethead (Mar 16, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> They’re not.


I am sure that in your mind they are not and most likely God and Science are not at odds in the minds of the congregation of the church you attend. But I'll also guess that is one reason why you all attend the same church.


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## bullethead (Mar 16, 2022)

660griz said:


> What is, and always will be, "God of the gaps". Just a lot less gaps now. Since we come out of the trees, we have been asking questions we don't know the answers to. Not a huge problem unless folks start making up answers instead of saying, "I don't know." I guess when you are 'chief' or 'the smart one in the village', I don't know, doesn't seem like an option.
> 
> So, if you look at religion, and the creation of religion in that manner. i.e. Religion was created to fill in the gaps, give relatives of dying folks hope, help folks quit fermented grains and kick other habits like stealing, killing, etc, it all makes sense. Religion was needed, and apparently still is, to lessen folks anxiety over death and to keep some control over folks that have no willpower.
> 
> ...


You touched on quite a few points that I think of.

I have also always wondered about what God was doing for eons before he decided to create a human ant farm. I realized that it might be possible that God made humans as a distraction from Heaven.
What do we know about the Angels? Or better yet where do we know it from? We don't have a pamphlet from Heaven or even a Heavenly website where we can click on the About Us page and scroll down to meet our Staff. No Testimonials from the Residents, not even Negative Yelp reviews from the Angels that left. Hard to believe that the Angels with a grudge didn't write an inspired Tell All book of their own.
I also used to think God was alone but no,  he had the Angels. Nobody knows when or how long. God must need the company and thrives on worship. But even a pardiise must have it's faults. There was this whole Rebellion thing. I don't know if those were Angels from out of town or ones that God himself created. Was it the eternal calm Spa waiting room easy listening Harp tunes enviornment that caused God to want a change or the absolute constant chaos of family in fighting and kicking out the kids that drove God to snap his head sideways, quickly point at a spot in the empty sky....well it would have been a spot underneath the glass viewing deck since Heaven is above the Universe....and Explode a new realm into existence???  Was it the regret of failure for creating Angels that didn't turn out like he wanted that caused God to lock himself in his studio for 6 days tying to let his creative side de-stress him from having no break from the kids???
I just don't know.
But I do wonder why some Angels would rebel from Fantasy Island and why none have done the talk show circuit to mention it. I mean you don't have to follow the rules if you didnt follow the rules. 
What was going on in Heaven that caused God to want to create people who were more like him, ya know in his likeness? 
What was his purpose for creating Angels and rebellious Angels at all?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 16, 2022)

I've never understood the religion vs science thing either. It's like some Christians are OK with science explaining most things. They let their kids take science in school. They go to the doctor. They like the benefits of science, medicine, etc. but once you mention God, then it's no longer science but magic poofs.
I don't know how they separate God's magic poofs from God's science nor why they feel a need to do so.

I could understand it if they totally ignored science and went with the 100% God's poofs way of God doing things. If they saw a tornado as only a creation of God and not any science involved. If they saw a rainbow as just a sign from God with no way to explain it with science.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 16, 2022)

Wouldn't it be really hard to take an anatomy class an not see the science of God's creation? The various systems and how they look just like other engineering systems? 
DNA and genetics? Compare that to Adam and the lineage to Abraham and the Jews. God performed that but he used science. The twins he knew before they were born. Yet they both had DNA.


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## Spotlite (Mar 16, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Ive had conversations with a number of Christians who have a less than favorable view of science. Maybe not slugging it out but Ive heard quite a few times that science isnt "fair" because it doesnt take into consideration the Christian God.
> Science is a dirty word to a number (certainly not all) of Christians.



True, but when considering this question posed - "Why is it a contest?"

Those Christians^^^^^ don`t have science and God "in the octagon slugging it out in Christian's minds".

The less favorable science is viewed the "dirtier" science is so they are certainly not going have any room in their minds for science to compete with God.

The average Christian sees it just the way @NCHillbilly stated it in probably the most accurate and concise way of putting it when he said the following:



> Science exists. If you believe God created this universe, then he also created the natural laws and properties that define the fundamental principals of science



Where most Christians part ways with science is when it comes to certain things such as creation and even the age of our earth because of what you said - "science isnt "fair" because it doesnt take into consideration the Christian God."

For the Christian it is like man setting the tangible parameters that are ultimately used in argument as the benchmark of the existence / non existence of the supernatural.

When those man made parameters are set the Christian sees it this way:

Non believer - I know and understand your Bible story as much or more than most Christians.

Believer - yea but you misunderstand or either ignore the portions of the story that explains to you that God`s is not subject / limited to your parameters and "fundamental principles". You tell me I cant possibly understand such a deity if one exist, yet you want to tell me what a deity should have / should not have done.


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## bullethead (Mar 16, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Wouldn't it be really hard to take an anatomy class an not see the science of God's creation? The various systems and how they look just like other engineering systems?
> DNA and genetics? Compare that to Adam and the lineage to Abraham and the Jews. God performed that but he used science. The twins he knew before they were born. Yet they both had DNA.


Taking an anatomy class definitely would give a sense of design. But how does it point to a specific designer?
A biology class and study on early earth would also give a sense as to how combining non living things form living things. It works that way now even if someone thinks a god is the chemist.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 16, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Why is it a contest? Science exists. If you believe God created this universe, then he also created the natural laws and properties that define the fundamental principals of science. I don't see why God and science are in the octagon slugging it out in Christian's minds, because they are one and the same.



you have a point! IMHO maybe there's a god who created all the long, complicated processes by which the universe (and our planet of course) operates. Evolution, plate tectonics, and all the things that can indeed be proved by science are all part of god's plan. 

Now the flipside of my idea: that would mean all the religions of the world "aren't doing it right" with their books and doctrine that are written, compiled & edited by human hands. 

Evolution happens to religions, too. Yep - just like every species, language, and society, every religion that has ever existed will be extinct someday! Bits & pieces of all of these things I mentioned will remain in the new versions for a long time, because they are the foundation of the new & improved versions. An example of what I mean is this: human DNA might be vastly different than a simple single celled microbe's DNA, but both of these use DNA as their foundation.


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## NCHillbilly (Mar 16, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> They’re not.


The post I quoted with that comment even had a scorecard: Faith 1, Science 0. I know a lot of Christians who selectively believe in science like medicine and math, but deny  and hate any science that contradicts the world being completely made and populated in six days a couple thousand years ago. It's the same science, not two different ones.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 16, 2022)

Proverbs 3:5-6 
Trust in the Lord with all your heart
 and lean not on your own understanding;
 in all your ways submit to him,
 and he will make your paths straight 

Back then man thought the heart was the center of what we now know we use our brain for. Science taught us this. Why do Christians believe this science to be true?

I would think God, the Creator, knew it was our brain and not our heart.


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## ambush80 (Mar 16, 2022)

660griz said:


> What is, and always will be, "God of the gaps". Just a lot less gaps now. Since we come out of the trees, we have been asking questions we don't know the answers to. Not a huge problem unless folks start making up answers instead of saying, "I don't know." I guess when you are 'chief' or 'the smart one in the village', I don't know, doesn't seem like an option.
> 
> So, if you look at religion, and the creation of religion in that manner. i.e. Religion was created to fill in the gaps, give relatives of dying folks hope, help folks quit fermented grains and kick other habits like stealing, killing, etc, it all makes sense. Religion was needed, and apparently still is, to lessen folks anxiety over death and to keep some control over folks that have no willpower.
> 
> ...



The "gaps" are plenty big enough to hold God (even the kookiest version).  Your last paragraph is the most important to me.  I guess I'm a bit of a utilitarian.  If believing in a god makes people better versions of themselves, more importantly, better people to share the planet with, then I would prefer they keep on believing.  The problem for me is that though belief in a god may make some people quit beating their wives or drinking, it also sometimes makes them science deniers.  As long as they don't use their beliefs to justify acts of regressive behavior, I'm happy to let them be.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 16, 2022)

In school Christians do not like for teachers to explain the creation of man by science but at the same time they are OK with them explaining a rainbow with science.
Why?


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## 660griz (Mar 16, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> If believing in a god makes people better versions of themselves, more importantly, better people to share the planet with, then I would prefer they keep on believing.


I agree but, must stop at that. Any of my deeper thoughts on that subject would surely offend many.


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## Spotlite (Mar 16, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> The post I quoted with that comment even had a scorecard: Faith 1, Science 0. I know a lot of Christians who selectively believe in science like medicine and math, but deny  and hate any science that contradicts the world being completely made and populated in six days a couple thousand years ago. It's the same science, not two different ones.


Most Christianity will not agree with anything that contradicts the Bible. That`s just the nature of the beast. Science says it is gravity and energy...........the Christian says yeah but God causes the gravity and energy.

I have no issues with the age of the earth and the 6 days population. I feel the earth is older than one can describe using Bible, but I don't think we are as old as science says it is. All I know is my birthday and all I can actually prove is how old I am. 

But keep in mind, all of these parameters to "prove things" are set by men. It is their measuring stick, not God`s. Again, the non believer tells me I cant possibly understand such a deity if one exist, yet they want to tell me the impossibilities of such a deity.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 16, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> The post I quoted with that comment even had a scorecard: Faith 1, Science 0. I know a lot of Christians who selectively believe in science like medicine and math, but deny  and hate any science that contradicts the world being completely made and populated in six days a couple thousand years ago. It's the same science, not two different ones.


 
I was being sarcastic/humorous when I said faith 1, science 0 BTW.


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## 660griz (Mar 16, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Again, the non believer tells me I cant possibly understand such a deity if one exist...


Non-believers did not come up with, "*God Moves in a Mysterious Way*" is a Christian hymn, written in 1773 by William Cowper from England.


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## Spotlite (Mar 16, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I was being sarcastic/humorous when I said faith 1, science 0 BTW.


You started this


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## Spotlite (Mar 16, 2022)

660griz said:


> Non-believers did not come up with, "*God Moves in a Mysterious Way*" is a Christian hymn, written in 1773 by William Cowper from England.


But non believers came up with the “impossible ways”. 

If such a deity exist how can either of us possibly know it’s capabilities and limitations?


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 16, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Proverbs 3:5-6
> Trust in the Lord with all your heart
> and lean not on your own understanding;
> in all your ways submit to him,
> ...



to be fair, this is one instance where "heart" is not to be taken literally. Even today we say we love something "with all our heart" and everyone knows what we mean.


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## 1eyefishing (Mar 16, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Proverbs 3:5-6
> Trust in the Lord with all your heart
> and lean not on your own understanding;
> in all your ways submit to him,
> ...



"and lean not on your own uderstanding..."
 I believe this is a lynch pin where they get ya.
 To me it's similar to a politician saying don't trust your lying eyes and what you just saw. Here is the truth.
 If I believe in a God, do I have to believe he created the world and all its spcies in 6 days? I certainly do not.
 Maybe God created the rules and the science, And the 6 day theory was arrived at by men who did not understand the science.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 16, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> The "gaps" are plenty big enough to hold God (even the kookiest version).  Your last paragraph is the most important to me.  I guess I'm a bit of a utilitarian.  If believing in a god makes people better versions of themselves, more importantly, better people to share the planet with, then I would prefer they keep on believing.  The problem for me is that though belief in a god may make some people quit beating their wives or drinking, it also sometimes makes them science deniers.  As long as they don't use their beliefs to justify acts of regressive behavior, I'm happy to let them be.





> If believing in a god makes people better versions of themselves, more importantly, better people to share the planet with, then I would prefer they keep on believing.


On the surface, I completely agree with that ^.
As I think a bit deeper about it, Im not so sure.
Lots of wars, atrocities and division are the flip side.
Sure, the average believer are just hard working regular folks who just live life etc, its the "higher ups" who are heck bent on expanding their power, lands, etc. in the name of their belief.


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## 1eyefishing (Mar 16, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> But non believers came up with the “impossible ways”.
> 
> If such a deity exist how can either of us possibly know it’s capabilities and limitations?



 This is the crux of the OP
 I was asking…


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## ambush80 (Mar 16, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Most Christianity will not agree with anything that contradicts the Bible. That`s just the nature of the beast. Science says it is gravity and energy...........the Christian says yeah but God causes the gravity and energy.
> 
> I have no issues with the age of the earth and the 6 days population. I feel the earth is older than one can describe using Bible, but I don't think we are as old as science says it is. All I know is my birthday and all I can actually prove is how old I am.
> 
> But keep in mind, all of these parameters to "prove things" are set by men. It is their measuring stick, not God`s. Again, the non believer tells me I cant possibly understand such a deity if one exist, yet they want to tell me the impossibilities of such a deity.



I think that 1+1=2 whether or not there are any sentient beings around and that there exists a shape with three sides no matter what men have decided to call it.  When sodium mixes with water, something happens.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 16, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> On the surface, I completely agree with that ^.
> As I think a bit deeper about it, Im not so sure.
> Lots of wars, atrocities and division are the flip side.
> Sure, the average believer are just hard working regular folks who just live life etc, its the "higher ups" who are heck bent on expanding their power, lands, etc. in the name of their belief.



Lemme throw this idea on you. 

I think that desire for pursuing spirituality or religion probably has an evolutionary utility or it wouldn't have persisted so long (I heard that idea from Bret Weinstein).  I think that it's a stronger motivation in some people than others, like artistic ability or empathy.  People who had a very strong propensity toward the spiritual would become the tribal Shaman or Witchdoctor.  They served an important purpose in the tribe for all kinds of reasons.  As so often happens, when people are elevated to great importance, they will abuse their power. 

I'm guessing almost all people have some inclination towards the spiritual or religious that the power hungry will prey upon with great zeal.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 16, 2022)

As time advances, the trend has been that adherents to religious texts have placed less and less emphasis on the supernatural claims made in those texts, often recontextualizing them as not to oppose scientific discoveries.  I believe this trend will continue.  Max Planck said "Science advances one death at a time".  Religion seems to follow the same axiom.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 16, 2022)

660griz said:


> I agree but, must stop at that. Any of my deeper thoughts on that subject would surely offend many.




Do tell.......


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 16, 2022)

660griz said:


> I agree but, must stop at that. Any of my deeper thoughts on that subject would surely offend many.



Do you think the belief in miracles, supernatural occurrences or divine intervention, is a net plus or minus to human flourishing?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 16, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> But non believers came up with the “impossible ways”.
> 
> If such a deity exist how can either of us possibly know it’s capabilities and limitations?


That is one reason why Unbelievers are quick to jump on Believers.  In my experiences it is the Believers who are telling others what God wants, means, thinks, and feels. After that the Unbelievers counter with thier shtick more or less to question and the Believer, give them other possibilities to generate other thoughts more so than to know anything about a God.

I mean realistically someone in here could say Superman robed a bank but he feels bad and another person could counter that Superman wouldn't do such a thing. Both sides "know" about Superman from what they've read and how Superman is portrayed but it is absolutely impossible to actually know anything about someone who literally does not exist anywhere except in the pages of books, on screen and in the minds of individuals who have convinced themselves of what Superman would and wouldn't do IF he was real based off of what they learned from fictional writings.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 16, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> "and lean not on your own uderstanding..."
> I believe this is a lynch pin where they get ya.
> To me it's similar to a politician saying don't trust your lying eyes and what you just saw. Here is the truth.
> If I believe in a God, do I have to believe he created the world and all its spcies in 6 days? I certainly do not.
> Maybe God created the rules and the science, And the 6 day theory was arrived at by men who did not understand the science.


Finding out what is God and what is man is the sticking point on every verse of scripture. It makes some question if a god was involved at all.
Makes a good case for a cultures concept of a god and how they understood it.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 16, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> "and lean not on your own uderstanding..."
> I believe this is a lynch pin where they get ya.
> To me it's similar to a politician saying don't trust your lying eyes and what you just saw. Here is the truth.
> If I believe in a God, do I have to believe he created the world and all its spcies in 6 days? I certainly do not.
> Maybe God created the rules and the science, And the 6 day theory was arrived at by men who did not understand the science.


Yep. If you believe in God, and you believe in all science that doesn't contradict a book written by ancient, uneducated people, why not figure that God created the earth over a long period of time using the principals of evolution and natural selection? Keep in mind that the Bible was written by men. Men are not perfect. Men 2,000 years ago had all kinds of crazy ideas about what caused things going on around them that are just common knowledge nowadays. Eclipses were scary then. They aren't now, for example. Acknowledging that uneducated men 2,000 years ago maybe misinterpreted God's methods out of sheer lack of scientific knowledge isn't an insult to God.

The Church took offense to Copernicus's idea in the 1500s that the Earth revolved around the Sun instead of the sun revolving around the Earth. They convicted Galileo of heresy for supporting this theory. Yet, today, only a little over 300 years later, I don't think there is a Christian alive who believes that the Sun orbits the Earth. Interpretations of events change with greater understanding of the laws of physics. It's just the way things work. Misinterpretation and error on the part of folks 2,000 years ago who didn't know any better doesn't disprove God, it just proves that man's process of gaining understanding of the world around him and the one who possibly made it is a long slow process.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 16, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Yep. If you believe in God, and you believe in all science that doesn't contradict a book written by ancient, uneducated people, why not figure that God created the earth over a long period of time using the principals of evolution and natural selection? Keep in mind that the Bible was written by men. Men are not perfect. Men 2,000 years ago had all kinds of crazy ideas about what caused things going on around them that are just common knowledge nowadays. Eclipses were scary then. They aren't now, for example. Acknowledging that uneducated men 2,000 years ago maybe misinterpreted God's methods out of sheer lack of scientific knowledge isn't an insult to God.
> 
> The Church took offense to Copernicus's idea in the 1500s that the Earth revolved around the Sun instead of the sun revolving around the Earth. They convicted Galileo of heresy for supporting this theory. Yet, today, I don't think there is a Christian alive who believes that the Sun orbits the Earth. Interpretations of events change with greater understanding of the laws of physics. It's just the way things work. Misinterpretation and error on the part of folks 2,000 years ago who didn't know any better doesn't disprove God, it just proves that man's process of gaining understanding of the world around him is a long slow process.



I like the explanation that God only gives people what they're capable of understanding at a particular time, it's the "off ramp" for those who are troubled by the seeming contradictions with science .  The ability to apply jurisprudence to religious texts, recontextualizing them as metaphor, will be the means of not throwing out the baby with the bathwater.  Whatever is good and useful in religious texts or belief in God can be preserved without hindering progress.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 16, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I like the explanation that God only gives people what they're capable of understanding at a particular time, it's the "off ramp" for those who are troubled by the seeming contradictions with science .  The ability to apply jurisprudence to religious texts, recontextualizing them as metaphor, will be the means of not throwing out the baby with the bathwater.  Whatever is good and useful in religious texts or belief in God can be preserved without hindering progress.


When people don't take sick or dying kids to Drs or hospitals because God only gave them what they can understand,,, who is responsible for then?


----------



## 660griz (Mar 16, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> If I believe in a God, do I have to believe he created the world and all its spcies in 6 days? I certainly do not.


If you believe in 'A' God. You can just stop there if you want. Folks ask if you believe in God, you say, "Yes". They ask about the bible and you can say, "uh, not that one." You can believe in any one of the current Gods or make up your own. Or, none. Will your life change? Only if you need a God.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 16, 2022)

660griz said:


> If you believe in 'A' God. You can just stop there if you want. Folks ask if you believe in God, you say, "Yes". They ask about the bible and you can say, "uh, not that one." You can believe in any one of the current Gods or make up your own. Or, none. Will your life change? Only if you need a God.


Maybe God has many legs, and Yahweh, Vishnu, Allah, Buddha, Wakan Tanka, Odin, Athena, and many more are just individual parts of a bigger god given to different cultures with different worldviews?


----------



## 660griz (Mar 16, 2022)

bullethead said:


> When people don't take sick or dying kids to Drs or hospitals because God only gave them what they can understand,,, who is responsible for then?


Not sure why I thought of this but, many years ago when my daughter was young, she met a girl in school from a religious family. My daughter asked if she could go to church with her, which I agreed. One day a few months after, we sat down to eat and my daughter asked if we were going to pray and give thanks. I said, "No need, you are welcome Sweetie. Pass the bread."


----------



## 1eyefishing (Mar 16, 2022)

660griz said:


> If you believe in 'A' God. You can just stop there if you want. Folks ask if you believe in God, you say, "Yes". They ask about the bible and you can say, "uh, not that one." You can believe in any one of the current Gods or make up your own. Or, none. Will your life change? Only if you need a God.



I'll admit that for now, it's more a case of hope/wish/want a god.
Maybe I dont have to understand in order to have faith.
The denigration and derision of those who don't understand is mostly
what as kept me from seeking answers outside of myself.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 16, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> to be fair, this is one instance where "heart" is not to be taken literally. Even today we say we love something "with all our heart" and everyone knows what we mean.


In most of the ancient world, the heart was viewed as the primary seat of thought and feeling. Not until later did the brain begin to be appreciated as the seat of these and other soulish functions.

I think we still say it because at one point it was thought to be so. Therefore scripture and other literature still passed it on so we still use it.
There are also some things that the ancient people thought blood caused or possessed. An example was thinking blood was the DNA that determined ancestry.


----------



## 660griz (Mar 16, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> I'll admit that for now, it's more a case of hope/wish/want a god.
> Maybe I dont have to understand in order to have faith.
> The denigration and derision of those who don't understand is mostly
> what as kept me from seeking answers outside of myself.


I have had some times in my life where I too wish there was help I could just ask for and receive. Fortunately, I had to buck up and do it myself. Personally, I think that is a lot more rewarding.


----------



## 1eyefishing (Mar 16, 2022)

660griz said:


> I have had some times in my life where I too wish there was help I could just ask for and receive. Fortunately, I had to buck up and do it myself. Personally, I think that is a lot more rewarding.


 I can appreciate that come up but for me me, man, comma I'm not really looking for help. I've come a long way in my journey and I give myself credit.
 I don't really understand what I'm looking for or understand what I want to understand. And at this point right now I don't guess it really matters.
 I'm sure many will say it does really matter but, I'm in this by myself.


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## Nicodemus (Mar 16, 2022)

Ya`ll gonna fiddle around and hit 1,000 posts on this thread before it`s over with, then I can lock it down and ya`ll can start another one. 

Carry on. You`re proceeding along sound lines.


----------



## 660griz (Mar 16, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> I can appreciate that come up but for me me, man, comma I'm not really looking for help. I've come a long way in my journey and I give myself credit.
> I don't really understand what I'm looking for or understand what I want to understand. And at this point right now I don't guess it really matters.
> I'm sure many will say it does really matter but, I'm in this by myself.


Just go sit in a tree stand or boat as the sun comes up. Hike up in the mountains and watch the sun go down. Nature, friends and family. That is where it is. That is what is good for my 'soul'. Being on GON, I assume you are fond of that too. There is a lot of legal fun to be had.

Don't take life so serious. Nobody gets out alive. Here are a couple of my goats to cheer you up.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 16, 2022)

bullethead said:


> When people don't take sick or dying kids to Drs or hospitals because God only gave them what they can understand,,, who is responsible for then?



Cruel Darwinism?


----------



## 1eyefishing (Mar 16, 2022)

660griz said:


> Just go sit in a tree stand or boat as the sun comes up. Hike up in the mountains and watch the sun go down. Nature, friends and family. That is where it is. That is what is good for my 'soul'. Being on GON, I assume you are fond of that too. There is a lot of legal fun to be had.
> 
> Don't take life so serious. Nobody gets out alive. Here are a couple of my goats to cheer you up.


 That has been my route since I was big enough to carry a slingshot and hide in the woods. Usually hiding from my horrid, torturous mother. I got really good at it. Still my closest contact with my spiritual self.


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## ambush80 (Mar 16, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Maybe God has many legs, and Yahweh, Vishnu, Allah, Buddha, Wakan Tanka, Odin, Athena, and many more are just individual parts of a bigger god given to different cultures with different worldviews?



Goes to the point that humans might have a deep seated need for religion or spirituality.  It's a mystery like why we dream or why we like music and art.  Maybe when brain matter gets aligned in just such a way, ideation of gods and spirituality naturally arises.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 16, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> Ya`ll gonna fiddle around and hit 1,000 posts on this thread before it`s over with, then I can lock it down and ya`ll can start another one.
> 
> Carry on. You`re proceeding along sound lines.



Betcha we don't.  The main players, the ones who are making the conversation interesting, are gonna drop out well before then.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 16, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Goes to the point that humans might have a deep seated need for religion or spirituality.  It's a mystery like why we dream or why we like music and art.  Maybe when brain matter gets aligned in just such a way, ideation of gods and spirituality naturally arises.


I think you are exactly right. I don't know if there's a culture on earth without some form of religion.


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## Nicodemus (Mar 16, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Betcha we don't.  The main players, the ones who are making the conversation interesting, are gonna drop out well before then.




Kurt, my offer on the drinks still stands.


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## ambush80 (Mar 16, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> Kurt, my offer on the drinks still stands.



I would love that, hopefully sooner than later.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 16, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Lemme throw this idea on you.
> 
> I think that desire for pursuing spirituality or religion probably has an evolutionary utility or it wouldn't have persisted so long (I heard that idea from Bret Weinstein).  I think that it's a stronger motivation in some people than others, like artistic ability or empathy.  People who had a very strong propensity toward the spiritual would become the tribal Shaman or Witchdoctor.  They served an important purpose in the tribe for all kinds of reasons.  As so often happens, when people are elevated to great importance, they will abuse their power.
> 
> I'm guessing almost all people have some inclination towards the spiritual or religious that the power hungry will prey upon with great zeal.





> I think that desire for pursuing spirituality or religion probably has an evolutionary utility or it wouldn't have persisted so long


That thought has always rolled around in my head. From the beginning and pretty much world wide man has gravitated towards a type of spirituality.
Its one of those unanswered questions I have that Im not completely satisfied with the answers Ive heard/read.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 16, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> Kurt, my offer on the drinks still stands.


Kurt knows a good trout fishing spot too. After a few shots he'll probably show you


----------



## bullethead (Mar 16, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I think you are exactly right. I don't know if there's a culture on earth without some form of religion.


Piraha in Brazil an Hadza in Tazmania are two that come to mind.
The Hadza seem close to being in the earliest forms of religion(pre gods) by including the Sun and Moon in with ancestors but they don't worship or believe in an afterlife. They have a creation story that involves descending from a tree or down the neck of a giraffe.


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## NCHillbilly (Mar 16, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> Kurt, my offer on the drinks still stands.


I sat and had a couple beers with Kurt and his wife one evening a couple years ago. He's good people.


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## ambush80 (Mar 16, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I sat and had a couple beers with Kurt and his wife one evening a couple years ago. He's good people.



I feel the same about you, Steve.  I hope I can get back up that way again and we can spend some time on one of those trout streams I keep hearing you talk about.


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## ambush80 (Mar 16, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Kurt knows a good trout fishing spot too. After a few shots he'll probably show you



We can go back any time.


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## ambush80 (Mar 16, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Piraha in Brazil an Hadza in Tazmania are two that come to mind.
> The Hadza seem close to being in the earliest forms of religion(pre gods) by including the Sun and Moon in with ancestors but they don't worship or believe in an afterlife. They have a creation story that involves descending from a tree or down the neck of a giraffe.



I read some about the Piraha.  I wonder if they have any beliefs that might fall into the "spiritual" category.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 16, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> That thought has always rolled around in my head. From the beginning and pretty much world wide man has gravitated towards a type of spirituality.
> Its one of those unanswered questions I have that Im not completely satisfied with the answers Ive heard/read.



That the inclination emerges is interesting.  Equally interesting is that we make music and art.  It could be evidence of some kind of "seed" or "code", implanted in us by a designer but it need not be.  The implications of believing one way or another seem to influence how people view their place and purpose in the world, more than it should, in my opinion.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 16, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> I'll admit that for now, it's more a case of hope/wish/want a god.
> Maybe I don't have to understand in order to have faith.
> The denigration and derision of those who don't understand is mostly
> what as kept me from seeking answers outside of myself.



What for?  What does it give you?

You certainly don't have to understand in order to have faith.  I think a definition of faith is when one believes without understanding.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 16, 2022)

660griz said:


> Just go sit in a tree stand or boat as the sun comes up. Hike up in the mountains and watch the sun go down. Nature, friends and family. That is where it is. That is what is good for my 'soul'. Being on GON, I assume you are fond of that too. There is a lot of legal fun to be had.
> 
> Don't take life so serious. Nobody gets out alive. Here are a couple of my goats to cheer you up.



Goats are funny.  Are they for tacos or companionship?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 16, 2022)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_behavior_in_animals


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 16, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> "and lean not on your own uderstanding..."
> I believe this is a lynch pin where they get ya.
> To me it's similar to a politician saying don't trust your lying eyes and what you just saw. Here is the truth.
> If I believe in a God, do I have to believe he created the world and all its spcies in 6 days? I certainly do not.
> Maybe God created the rules and the science, And the 6 day theory was arrived at by men who did not understand the science.



but god does understand the science - and he understands that bronze age people certainly would not. And certainly god would realize that in the future mankind would come to the conclusion (even if they are wrong) that the world was not created in six days. So that said I would think that if the bible is "the word of god" that god would have just said that he created the world and all the species and offer no further details. But as it stands now Genesis sounds like it was made up by bronze age people.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Mar 16, 2022)

660griz said:


> Just go sit in a tree stand or boat as the sun comes up. Hike up in the mountains and watch the sun go down. Nature, friends and family. That is where it is. That is what is good for my 'soul'. Being on GON, I assume you are fond of that too. There is a lot of legal fun to be had.
> 
> Don't take life so serious. Nobody gets out alive. Here are a couple of my goats to cheer you up.



goats adorned with Christmas lights? Sounds like a bible story to me!


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 16, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> but god does understand the science - and he understands that bronze age people certainly would not. And certainly god would realize that in the future mankind would come to the conclusion (even if they are wrong) that the world was not created in six days. So that said I would think that if the bible is "the word of god" that god would have just said that he created the world and all the species and offer no further details. But as it stands now Genesis sounds like it was made up by bronze age people.



The story was relevant to the times.  It's like how you watch an old sci fi movie and they have analog gauges, dials and buttons, even though it's supposed to be in the future; but the message of the story is universal and timeless.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 16, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I feel the same about you, Steve.  I hope I can get back up that way again and we can spend some time on one of those trout streams I keep hearing you talk about.


Did he make you one of those heart clogging double cheeseburgers he's famous for?


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 16, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I feel the same about you, Steve.  I hope I can get back up that way again and we can spend some time on one of those trout streams I keep hearing you talk about.


Any time.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 16, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I feel the same about you, Steve.  I hope I can get back up that way again and we can spend some time on one of those trout streams I keep hearing you talk about.


Any time.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 16, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Did he make you one of those heart clogging double cheeseburgers he's famous for?


Nope, we were at one of those trendy breweries in Asheville.


----------



## 1eyefishing (Mar 16, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> What for?  What does it give you?
> 
> You certainly don't have to understand in order to have faith.  I think a definition of faith is when one believes without understanding.


I'm  not really sure why. Curiosity maybe...a sense of purpose maybe...
I think one of the biggest questions of mankind is why are we here.
Is my experience after I die gonna be the same as it was before I was born?
As a side note, I'll say that I'll say that maybe the 2nd biggest question of mankind is 'are we alone'? I find it amusing that now that the government admits that we are not, things are so screwed up in this world that nobody cares. ?


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## ky55 (Mar 16, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Nope, we were at one of those trendy breweries in Asheville.



Surely not the Funkatorium?


----------



## Israel (Mar 17, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> I'm  not really sure why. Curiosity maybe...a sense of purpose maybe...
> I think one of the biggest questions of mankind is why are we here.
> Is my experience after I die gonna be the same as it was before I was born?
> As a side note, I'll say that I'll say that maybe the 2nd biggest question of mankind is 'are we alone'? I find it amusing that now that the government admits that we are not, things are so screwed up in this world that nobody cares. ?



 I believe fundamentally that order of questions is reversed.


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## 660griz (Mar 17, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Goats are funny.  Are they for tacos or companionship?


Just pets. Fainting goats and I feel bad about making them faint now.


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## 660griz (Mar 17, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> goats adorned with Christmas lights? Sounds like a bible story to me!


Well, you hold on to that bible. That one sounds good.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 17, 2022)

660griz said:


> Just pets. Fainting goats and I feel bad about making them faint now.


Do you do it on purpose? I’ve never owned a fainting goat but my brother had a few. He’d get a kick out making them faint……..the famous “watch this”  lol ?


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## 660griz (Mar 17, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Do you do it on purpose? I’ve never owned a fainting goat but my brother had a few. He’d get a kick out making them faint……..the famous “watch this”  lol ?


I use to. Now it makes me sad. They do get excited from time to time and 'lock up' on their own.


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## 660griz (Mar 17, 2022)

Reading the other thread made me think of something else that just doesn't add up...
The Flood. There is the huge issue of, where did the water come from and where did it go? Most all the water on earth has always been on earth. For arguments sake, let's say God flooded the earth. Why in the world would God kill all living things? I understand man was a sinner, blah blah blah but, what did the animals do to deserve such a horrible death? Why didn't God just snap, wink, fold arms and nod, or whatever, to just wipe folks off the earth without disturbing a single bush or duck billed platypus? Why the theatrics? Build an Ark Noah cause I said so, get 2 of every animal Noah. Poor Noah. I would have said, "God, just kill everyone already, Jesus!"

I will tell you why. 1) Localized flood event had to be explained. God did it. 
2) Flood is much better story than blink blink, man gone.


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2022)

660griz said:


> Reading the other thread made me think of something else that just doesn't add up...
> The Flood. There is the huge issue of, where did the water come from and where did it go? Most all the water on earth has always been on earth. For arguments sake, let's say God flooded the earth. Why in the world would God kill all living things? I understand man was a sinner, blah blah blah but, what did the animals do to deserve such a horrible death? Why didn't God just snap, wink, fold arms and nod, or whatever, to just wipe folks off the earth without disturbing a single bush or duck billed platypus? Why the theatrics? Build an Ark Noah cause I said so, get 2 of every animal Noah. Poor Noah. I would have said, "God, just kill everyone already, Jesus!"


Floods, eclipses, locusts, earthquakes,  etc were the scariest events of those times. There were no explanations for them so like today some people felt the need to take natural occurrences, insert god as the cause, and embellish the stories to make them god-like.
No talk of Sun Rays from eyeballs incineration or flying Bronze cylinders being pushed by fire through the sky hitting and destroying cities. They had to use their imaginations to enhance the scary things that were witnessed so the readers could relate.


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## Baroque Brass (Mar 17, 2022)

This thread has addressed the question of whether the Bible can be interpreted literally. The answer seems to be yes and no, which doesn’t help much. I’ll toss another out for discussion. Is heaven a literal, physical place? If it’s “in the sky”, where is it? Is it so high that supplemental oxygen is required? Is it possibly pressurized with its own oxygen supply? If so, is there an airlock at the Pearly Gates? With airliners circling the globe daily, why hasn’t it been seen? We’ve explored space within the constraints of our technology, still no reports of anyone seeing heaven. Can it be seen with the Hubble telescope? How big is it? Seems like on a clear night we should see a heavenly glow in the sky as incentive to behave so one day we can go there. Do it’s inhabitants need food? What about waste disposal? The list goes on...


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 17, 2022)

Baroque Brass said:


> This thread has addressed the question of whether the Bible can be interpreted literally. The answer seems to be yes and no, which doesn’t help much. I’ll toss another out for discussion. Is heaven a literal, physical place? If it’s “in the sky”, where is it? Is it so high that supplemental oxygen is required? Is it possibly pressurized with its own oxygen supply? If so, is there an airlock at the Pearly Gates? With airliners circling the globe daily, why hasn’t it been seen? We’ve explored space within the constraints of our technology, still no reports of anyone seeing heaven. Can it be seen with the Hubble telescope? How big is it? Seems like on a clear night we should see a heavenly glow in the sky as incentive to behave so one day we can go there. Do it’s inhabitants need food? What about waste disposal? The list goes on...


I think it's a physical place because Jesus is their in his human body. Unless he parked it at the gates after he ascended. He has a body of flesh and bones so we won't need any oxygen. I'm not sure where it's at though, perhaps another planet.


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think it's a physical place because Jesus is their in his human body. Unless he parked it at the gates after he ascended. He has a body of flesh and bones so we won't need any oxygen. I'm not sure where it's at though, perhaps another planet.


Jesus must be the only one in a physical body.


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## ky55 (Mar 17, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think it's a physical place because Jesus is their in his human body. Unless he parked it at the gates after he ascended. He has a body of flesh and bones so we won't need any oxygen. I'm not sure where it's at though, perhaps another planet.



That’s the best explanation so far.


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## Spotlite (Mar 17, 2022)

Baroque Brass said:


> This thread has addressed the question of whether the Bible can be interpreted literally. The answer seems to be yes and no, which doesn’t help much. I’ll toss another out for discussion. Is heaven a literal, physical place? If it’s “in the sky”, where is it? Is it so high that supplemental oxygen is required? Is it possibly pressurized with its own oxygen supply? If so, is there an airlock at the Pearly Gates? With airliners circling the globe daily, why hasn’t it been seen? We’ve explored space within the constraints of our technology, still no reports of anyone seeing heaven. Can it be seen with the Hubble telescope? How big is it? Seems like on a clear night we should see a heavenly glow in the sky as incentive to behave so one day we can go there. Do it’s inhabitants need food? What about waste disposal? The list goes on...





> We’ve explored space within the constraints of our technology





> our


Hint hint hint


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 17, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Jesus must be the only one in a physical body.


He is!


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## buckpasser (Mar 20, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> He is!



I’m not so sure. Where’s Enoch and Elijah?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 20, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I’m not so sure.
> No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
> 
> ?


No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

I wonder it they are in Abraham's Bosom or Paradise? 7th Heaven for a short visit and now they are back in their graves on the earth?


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 20, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I’m not so sure. Where’s Enoch and Elijah?



Yes I forgot about them! Weren't they taken straight up into heaven without having to die first? Actually they may have died of a heart attack from the shock of going about their daily business, then suddenly getting sucked up into the sky!

However if they did enjoy the ride, I bet their last words were "Hey! I can see my house from here!"


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2022)

The count so far stands at a Being, 3 Bodies, a lot of Souls, an unlimited supply of whatever form Angels take, and counting.
The religious scholars and interpreters are 50/50 on Enoch and Elijah it seems.


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## buckpasser (Mar 20, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Yes I forgot about them! Weren't they taken straight up into heaven without having to die first? Actually they may have died of a heart attack from the shock of going about their daily business, then suddenly getting sucked up into the sky!
> 
> However if they did enjoy the ride, I bet their last words were "Hey! I can see my house from here!"



I know you pretend this is all a joke to you, but they might just come into play again before it’s all over. Seems like there are two witnesses that will be killed in the future that are mentioned in the book of Revelation.  “Appointed to a man once to die”…might just be those two men get bodily death a bit differently than the rest of us.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I know you pretend this is all a joke to you, but they might just come into play again before it’s all over. Seems like there are two witnesses that will be killed in the future that are mentioned in the book of Revelation.  “Appointed to a man once to die”…might just be those two men get bodily death a bit differently than the rest of us.


It isn't a joke. We take it as seriously as you take the writings and predictions of other religions.
We aren't sitting around anxious for Armageddon. That is left to the followers of the religion of peace and love.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 20, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I know you pretend this is all a joke to you, but they might just come into play again before it’s all over. Seems like there are two witnesses that will be killed in the future that are mentioned in the book of Revelation.  “Appointed to a man once to die”…might just be those two men get bodily death a bit differently than the rest of us.



I still don't get it. Did those two go up into heaven while still alive and in physical form but then become a "spiritual" form once there? Did they live as actual physical beings until they eventually died there, and _then_ became spiritual? Is heaven a mix of spiritual and physical and who knows what else? Are aliens involved somehow? It sounds a lot like the accounts of people getting sucked up into an alien ship in a beam of light. The "sons of god" who bred with human females and created the Nephilim might be aliens or something. It's pretty freaky IMHO.


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## buckpasser (Mar 20, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I still don't get it. Did those two go up into heaven while still alive and in physical form but then become a "spiritual" form once there? Did they live as actual physical beings until they eventually died there, and _then_ became spiritual? Is heaven a mix of spiritual and physical and who knows what else? Are aliens involved somehow? It sounds a lot like the accounts of people getting sucked up into an alien ship in a beam of light. The "sons of god" who bred with human females and created the Nephilim might be aliens or something. It's pretty freaky IMHO.



I really can’t answer or argue with anything you posted there.


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