# No such thing as a Quail Dog? (Pheasant Dog), (Grouse Dog), etc.



## Coach K (Jan 20, 2014)

There's no such thing as a "Quail Dog", "Pheasant Dog", "Grouse Dog", etc. - I thought this was a pretty interesting affirmation, taken from another thread, & wanted to hear what everyone thought.  

Frank Jaziero, of Pointing Dog Journal, would definitely disagree with this as he is a staunch believer that it takes a very special dog to be able to handle ruffed grouse.  (ie. "A grouse dog")


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## Jetjockey (Jan 20, 2014)

The reason I say that there is no such thing is because any dog given the experience, will learn to handle grouse.  No different than late season running pheasants, chukar, etc.   

The Brit Gun Dog Nationals is held near the end of Oct every year in Iona MI.  Several years ago my trainer actually went (he does t normally go to the GD Nationals).  During his time in Iona, he met some locals that invited him to go grouse hunting.  He grabbed 4 or 5 of his "trial" dogs that had never hunted grouse before and off they went.   The dogs pointed, and the hunters killed, a bunch of grouse over those dogs.  Were they grouse dogs?  Nope, they were just great bird dogs who had been on lots of wild birds........ A litter mate to my dog that washed out of trialing, was sold to a guy in PA that guides for grouse.  From what I understand, the dog does a heck of a job on grouse.  As a matter of fact, the guy bought a bunch of the "trial rejects" from my trainer.   And they all made great grouse dogs.

Can those same dogs go pin wild late season roosters?  Yep, because they are good bird dogs.  THey also point chickens, sharpies, and quail.  Good bird dogs are good bird dogs.  In trials, there are many bird specific championships.  In the Brit world we have a Pheasant, Quail, Chicken, Chukar, and Grouse/woodcock Championships.  Several dogs who have won the Grouse/Woodcock Championship have also placed in the GD Championship.  Not because they were great grouse dogs , but because they were great bird dogs.


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## coachdoug87 (Jan 20, 2014)

I don't claim to be an expert, but in my opinion, a well
  Bred dog can handle any game bird, but certain bloodlines
 Are better suited to certain types of hunting. A dog bred
 For wide open quail hunting can be trained to hunt closer
For grouse, but he won't do it as naturally as a dog from
Grouse hunting bloodlines.  Breeders look for certain
Traits and breed the dogs that show those traits.


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## birddog52 (Jan 21, 2014)

i agree you have foot hunting dogs and the wide ranging field trialers you need a horses or 4 wheeler to stay in sight of


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## Jetjockey (Jan 21, 2014)

birddog52 said:


> i agree you have foot hunting dogs and the wide ranging field trialers you need a horses or 4 wheeler to stay in sight of



Not true at all.  Again, it's all about what the dogs get exposed to.   Many "wide ranging field trial dogs", get foot hunted over without any problems.  There's a cool video on the Bama fish and game website were Gary Lester is being interviewed and he talks about foot hunting Lester's Snowatch ( AF All Age NC).  He says that the dog "learned the game".    Does that make him a foot hunting dog or a trial dog?  Is he a quail dog because that's what he pointed when he won at Ames?  Or a sharptail/pheasant dog because that's what he points at summer camp?


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## gunslinger33 (Jan 21, 2014)

I am not a trainer by any means but most of the trainers I know or have talked to typically use pidgeons with launchers to control the "flush" and this teaches the dog to hold the point and not crash the bird. I have not seen a post on pidgeon season, so my point is that scent drives the point regardless of species of bird. Watch Chad with Willow Creek Kennels on youtube and you will see what I am referring to.


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## BirdNut (Jan 22, 2014)

I think there are definitely specialists that excel on one or several types of game birds, but can become undone or at least not handle as well as the next dog on another type of game.  For example pheasants in South Dakota are different than hunting grouse in Appalachia.   Terrain is different, birds are different, etc.  Running pheasants and goofy grouse might undo a great EP that will find quail if there are any within a 100 miles, and more thorough, careful, close working dog might be just the ticket for the problem grouse or pheasant, but will under perform on quail in relation to the big running, staunch, choke bore nosed quail dog.

Take a smart dog with a good nose and I think you ought to do pretty well on most species of game birds.

There are of course the truly exceptional dogs that books are written about that were able to win grouse,quail, pheasant trials etc.  But still, one has to consider that even in the hey day of trialing, some of the birds were released and not wild.

I have seen versatile dogs, but in most cases I can recall dogs that are specialists that are far better than the jack-of-all trades bird dogs. 

I am speaking from experience as a hunter, not as a trialer or profesisional trainer, although I do train my own.  I have hunted quite a bit all over the US and Mexico, with my dogs, and with others (professional trainers, and/or guides).

Earlier this year I hunted a really nice ranch in TX where in 2 days we shot into 20 and 22 coveys respectively.  I would characterize this as a phenomenal wild bird hunt in the US (Mexico was better before it got really crazy down there).  The habitat was great and there were a lot of birds.  We were hunting with a professional trainer/handler and his string of 20+ dogs.  I would characterize the dog work overall as mediocre despite all the bird contacts, but there were flashes of brillaince by a couple of dogs.  Frankly, a lot of them were mishandled.  Scent conditions were about perfect as it had rained a little each day so there was moisture and temps ranged from 30's to 50's.  Birds were out moving and feeding due to the weather.  There were only two dogs out of the whole string that I would rate as worth a second look; one was a little English Pointer that ran to the horizon but would pin and hold birds, the other was the first and only red setter I have ever hunted over.

But, back to the question.  Certainly a truly special dog exists and have existed, but I would daresay they are pretty rare.  If someone has a dog that is truly exceptional on every species of game bird on the planet, they ought to get with their vet and freeze some seed/eggs for posterity and start an artificial insemination program.  I might even try and get a pup.


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## Coach K (Feb 9, 2014)

Didn't someone mention that their dog didn't like to retrieve woodcock?  Wouldn't this keep this dog from being a woodcock specialist?  Obviously, any good bird-dog might be trained to handle different types of game birds.  Is that the same thing as having bonafide expert on that type of upland bird that just seems to have a special passion for that particular species?  After all don't people have passions about different sports, etc.?  Wouldn't you think dogs might have a special affinity for a certain type of game?


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## BirdNut (Feb 9, 2014)

Not sure what you are asking...but there are dogs that excel on one (or several similar) species and are thus specialists, but I think its rare indeed for a dog to _excel_ on all species as has been put forth as a hypothesis by others.

I think usually a dog has its preferred game, one that it is better at than all others.  Or maybe a better way to say it is a dog is suited for a certain type/style, etc. of hunting.  Quail hunting covers a broad spectrum.  Hunting bobwhites in the east is different than hunting desert quail.  I think hunting grouse in the mountains is different than quail hunting.  I think pheasant can be very much like quail hunting, but can also be quite different.  If I had my choice, I would have a lights out dog hunting at the very edge of control for quail in most places we find them these days, one that will pin and hold birds but one that is going to run pretty big.  If we turn, it turns, but for the most part the dog is out and searching the horizon, and doesn't need us hollering at it nonstop.  Conversely, if I wanted to hunt grouse more than quail I would want a closer working dog that is very attuned to the gun.  If in heavy timber, dog is close, if the visual range increases, then so does the dogs range.  This may just be a personal preference because in both cases, I cannot stand someone hacking at a dog all day long.  One man's handling is another man's hacking.  I think one of the greatest pleasures is a dog that handles its business on its own with very little interference from the handler.

Also to me, a dog that excels or is a specialist are relative concepts by the way, and on a relative scale.  One man's specialist may just be another dog to someone else with a different set of experiences and requirements.


I am in the camp that there are specialists in a species (i.e. a quail dog).  The same dog may hunt really well for other species as well.  I will come out and say it that some quail dogs are going to be a bust on grouse, and vice versa for a grouse dog on quail    They will find birds, and handle them properly, but won't find and hold as many as the respective specialist.  Ans I am convinced that it is a truly rare and special dog that can _excel_ on all species of birds.


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## Coach K (Feb 9, 2014)

By the way,  I Keep putting one of my dogs down in quail fields time & time again, but he keeps heading for the coverts & nailing woodcock after woodcock until I could have filled three limits.  This is probably just because he knows there aren't enough wild quail in GA to be bothered about, though??    He might take offense to being called a woodcock dog.  But, then again, he sure likes finding 
WC's.


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## NCHillbilly (Feb 10, 2014)

I used to have a beagle that would point grouse-I killed several with him. He wouldn't hold a point long, but he'd point one. Never saw another beagle with that instinct. He was a durn good rabbit dog, too.


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## BirdNut (Feb 10, 2014)

Coach K said:


> By the way,  I Keep putting one of my dogs down in quail fields time & time again, but he keeps heading for the coverts & nailing woodcock after woodcock until I could have filled three limits.  This is probably just because he knows there aren't enough wild quail in GA to be bothered about, though??    He might take offense to being called a woodcock dog.  But, then again, he sure likes finding
> WC's.




That's pretty cool that he will improvise for you.  All of my woodcock hunting has been incidental to quail or grouse, or at least started that way-mixed bag hunts, or intending on quail/grouse and winding up with woodcock.  Once you discover the coverts, while you are there, you might as well swing through them.  I don;t think I have ever said "Lets go woodcock hunting"-always been paired with another game bird as the main object.  Interestingly, there are a couple of woods spots that I know that hold quail, and whenever the flights arrive, they are stacked with woodcock, so there can be a surprise at the point and flush as to what rises and keeps you on your toes.

I have always enjoyed watching an older dog work because they seem to learn the game and check all the likely spots.  A smart dog is the best dog IMO.


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## BirdNut (Feb 10, 2014)

NCHillbilly said:


> I used to have a beagle that would point grouse-I killed several with him. He wouldn't hold a point long, but he'd point one. Never saw another beagle with that instinct. He was a durn good rabbit dog, too.



Truly a versatile breed!


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## coachdoug87 (Feb 10, 2014)

Woodstock used to be incidental for me, but the
Last several years I have actually gone
Woodstock hunting. It is about the best
Bet for finding something.


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## GLS (Feb 11, 2014)

coachdoug87 said:


> Woodstock used to be incidental for me, but the
> Last several years I have actually gone
> Woodstock hunting. It is about the best
> Bet for finding something.



Say it ain't so, Charlie Brown


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## coachdoug87 (Feb 15, 2014)

Ha. I can't understand why the stupid spell check
Changed that.  I guess woodcock is not a common
Word. I fixed it this time.


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## GLS (Feb 16, 2014)

Both of my laptops are kaplooey and this iPad drives me nuts with auto correct.  It took an act of congress to write the k word above. Gil


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## Killinstuff (Feb 19, 2014)

I'm a big believer in the old saying "birds make a bird dog".  Hunt enough grouse and your dog will be a good grouse dog, same with pheasants, quail whatever.  Experience trumps breeding everytime.  And I've read those stories about folks having dogs that won't retrieve a woodcock but never owned one. I've seen Setter's that just don't like to retrieve anything regardless but the one I had would fetch a woodcock even if it was on fire. My current shorthair and brit are the same way, fetch everything. Might be because they get more exposure to them here and it's more than likely going to be the first wild bird they ever get a nose full of.


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