# Voting for Trump



## tell sackett

I'm lifting my ban temporarily to try and get some answers to a question that has been puzzling me. If any are willing I would like to get some thoughts on how those who are born again arrive at the decision to vote for Trump.

Your vote is your own. I don't ask in a critical manner, but knowing the life he has,and apparently still is, living I can't see how a vote for Trump can match up with Biblical values. Perhaps I'm missing something. I know we're not electing a pastor, but I believe we are to vote our faith as much as possible.

Thanks.


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## apoint

How many Christian presidents have you voted for in the past?
  He who is without sin throw the 1st stone.
 Only God himself knows the true born again or a man that is convicted in his heart to do what is right.
  If the pope thinks he can tell the difference, he is mistaken.
 To answer your question as we are quickly going dn the drain. Anybody but the demon Demorats...
 Looks to me all have fallen short in Gods eyes.
  The closest one to being Christian as I see would be Cruz.  I will vote for whoever the repub nomination is to save our country and constitution.


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## centerpin fan

I'm voting for Ted Cruz, but:



> ... it is Trump who has done the best job of channeling the anger of the GOP electorate and guess what? Evangelicals are upset with the Republican Party too. They’ve felt like cheap political pawns for years, constantly being used by the GOP to get out and vote and then having nothing to show for it. With Trump, many of those evangelicals feel like they’ve found the politically incorrect mouthpiece to channel their inner frustration. Is he the most righteous man to carry the torch? No. Is he the most transparent and authentic one? Clearly, they believe so. Look, evangelicals are not monolithic. There are plenty of evangelicals who can’t stand Trump. But as we saw in South Carolina tonight, there are plenty who trust him to get America back on the right track.



http://blogs.cbn.com/thebrodyfile/a...rolina-kiss-to-donald-trump.aspx?mobile=false


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## swampstalker24

apoint said:


> How many Christian presidents have you voted for in the past?
> He who is without sin throw the 1st stone.
> Only God himself knows the true born again or a man that is convicted in his heart to do what is right.
> If the pope thinks he can tell the difference, he is mistaken.
> To answer your question as we are quickly going dn the drain. Anybody but the demon Demorats...
> Looks to me all have fallen short in Gods eyes.
> The closest one to being Christian as I see would be Cruz.  I will vote for whoever the repub nomination is to save our country and constitution.



With stories like these coming out almost daily, it begs the question of exactly how "christ like" is Cruz?  What would jesus think of his dirty campaign tricks?  

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...o-video-alleging-bible-diss.html?intcmp=hpbt3


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## rjcruiser

This threads premise is flawed from the get go...but...to answer what I presume (since I'm not planning of voting for Trump either).

Trump is about as "christian" as the majority of "christian America" so why not?  He goes to church when he needs to, he says a few swear words (but we all do, right?), he's divorced and remarried, he's a family man, he's faithful to his current wife etc etc.  Yup...he's a good american christian if I've ever seen one.


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## formula1

*Re:*

Not really for Trump but I'd vote for him if that is the choice over a socialists any day.  Upsetting the apple cart of politics as usual in many ways is exactly what Washington needs IMHO, but right now I would another candidate because I can.

Most of the time we as Christians do not get a viable or perfect choice that meets our values, particularly in a general election.  So at some point, we are likely going to have to compromise.  No matter who it is, you will never get a perfect candidate as they don't exist!  Men are flawed and that's why Jesus came, that is, to cover our iniquities and forgive and heal us!  That's the way it will always be in a broken world!


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## apoint

In my younger years of many yrs ago, I was liberal because my first thought was not of God. 
  I would hope also Mr Trump has aged and seen the light of our Lord. Yes he is a bit rough around the edges but I will take him for his word as a believer. He does live a sober life and has raised his family as such and he does love his family very much. I would go as far to say that down deep Trump loves his country and family and God. That said, lets not beat him up too much because we have let down our Lord pretty much daily.
 I would also say that Trump or Cruze are far better Christians than many of the politicians we have voted in so far. Most republicans are by name only.  I believe both of these candidates I can vote for with a clear conscious and they will do what they say they will do.  Now anyone that does not vote for the rep nominated is a trader to America and its constitution, no matter how you feel about them. MHO...


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## gemcgrew

I trust God that all things work together for the good of His people. I will be content in the Lord, no matter who is elected President. I will vote, or not vote, according to liberty.

Remember, "The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will."


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## tell sackett

apoint said:


> How many Christian presidents have you voted for in the past?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *I have no idea.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He who is without sin throw the 1st stone.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Hogs and dogs.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only God himself knows the true born again or a man that is convicted in his heart to do what is right.
> If the pope thinks he can tell the difference, he is mistaken.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Agree100%*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To answer your question as we are quickly going dn the drain. Anybody but the demon Demorats...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Yes, we are going down the drain, but the fault isn't just with one party, or even just with politics. It's much more personal.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks to me all have fallen short in Gods eyes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Sin lies at the door of the church.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The closest one to being Christian as I see would be Cruz.  I will vote for whoever the repub nomination is to save our country and constitution
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> .
> 
> *I fear the probable R nominee is a wolf in sheep's clothing.*
Click to expand...


Thanks for replying



centerpin fan said:


> I'm voting for Ted Cruz, but:
> 
> 
> 
> http://blogs.cbn.com/thebrodyfile/a...rolina-kiss-to-donald-trump.aspx?mobile=false



A lot of that quote resonates with me. I am thoroughly sick of the R party, but, I can't see supporting a man of Trump's apparent character as a Biblical response to that anger(especially in a primary). Thanks for responding 



swampstalker24 said:


> With stories like these coming out almost daily, it begs the question of exactly how "christ like" is Cruz?  What would jesus think of his dirty campaign tricks?
> 
> http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...o-video-alleging-bible-diss.html?intcmp=hpbt3



Thanks for responding.



rjcruiser said:


> This threads premise is flawed from the get go...but...to answer what I presume (since I'm not planning of voting for Trump either).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Probably not worded the best, but why flawed?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump is about as "christian" as the majority of "christian America" so why not?  He goes to church when he needs to, he says a few swear words (but we all do, right?), he's divorced and remarried, he's a family man, he's faithful to his current wife etc etc.  Yup...he's a good american christian if I've ever seen one
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Herein lies much of the problem I believe. Inch deep Christianity, but that's not always the case.  *
Click to expand...


Thanks for responding.



formula1 said:


> Not really for Trump but I'd vote for him if that is the choice over a socialists any day.  Upsetting the apple cart of politics as usual in many ways is exactly what Washington needs IMHO, but right now I would another candidate because I can.
> 
> Most of the time we as Christians do not get a viable or perfect choice that meets our values, particularly in a general election.  So at some point, we are likely going to have to compromise.  No matter who it is, you will never get a perfect candidate as they don't exist!  Men are flawed and that's why Jesus came, that is, to cover our iniquities and forgive and heal us!  That's the way it will always be in a broken world!



In the primary we have that choice, but in the general how can a person who is truly striving to live a Christ like life pleasing to the Father vote for a candidate who is conducting himself in the way that Trump is?

You're right, there is no perfect candidate, they all have warts just as I do. but how much is too much?

Thanks for responding. 



apoint said:


> In my younger years of many yrs ago, I was liberal because my first thought was not of God.
> 
> 
> 
> I would hope also Mr Trump has aged and seen the light of our Lord. Yes he is a bit rough around the edges but I will take him for his word as a believer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *A bit rough? Is that what they call an understatement? I'm afraid when I inspect his fruit(his business dealings and his conduct), I'm not quite so willing to take him at his word.*
> 
> He does live a sober life and has raised his family as such and he does love his family very much. I would go as far to say that down deep Trump loves his country and family and God. That said, lets not beat him up too much because
> 
> 
> 
> 
> because we have let down our Lord pretty much daily.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> .
> 
> *I'll just amen for myself here and move on.*
> 
> 
> I would also say that Trump or Cruze are far better Christians than many of the politicians we have voted in so far. Most republicans are by name only.  I believe both of these candidates I can vote for with a clear conscious and they will do what they say they will do.  Now anyone that does not vote for the rep nominated is a trader to America and its constitution, no matter how you feel about them. MHO...
Click to expand...




gemcgrew said:


> I trust God that all things work together for the good of His people. I will be content in the Lord, no matter who is elected President. I will vote, or not vote, according to liberty.
> 
> Remember, "The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will."



Thou art the man. Is that stuff you've been posting in the pf for real, or are you just?
Thanks for responding.

You're right btw. No matter what man may do, our God reigns.


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## NE GA Pappy

Daniel 2:21

He changes times and seasons; he deposes kings and raises up others. He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the discerning.


God will not wake up on the morning of November 9,2016, and say.... Gee, I didn't think ole _________ was going to win!


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## apoint

I would add that a person that does not vote a republican would be the same as voting for a socialist Sanders or a criminal Clinton.
 For evil to prosper is for a good man to do nothing.
 I hope you all remember the last Democratic convention when they all Booed GOD.... Unbelievable...
 That's why I call them Demoncrats...


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## drippin' rock

If you want to vote for a Christian, better not vote at all.


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## apoint

drippin' rock said:


> If you want to vote for a Christian, better not vote at all.



Better yet..
 Don't be so heavenly minded that you are no earthly good.
  We are not voting for Yeshua for president, not yet anyway.
  Christians sat out the last elections by the millions and we got a mooslim anti American president.
  If the Christians sit it out again you can kiss your country good by forever. If you want your children to be communist, well you might as well vote for Jim Jones and drink the koolaid..
 It is so bad that it does not matter if you like the nominated republican. The alternative demoncrat is unthinkable.. Demoncrats have no problem with killing the unborn and selling their body parts to the highest bidder. GOD PLEASE help us.
  PS. Trump has repeatedly said he has Israel back.... I believe him. enough said ...


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## gemcgrew

tell sackett said:


> Thou art the man.


Noted and appreciated. I went back to see just how many times I have posted there. I imagined the count to be less than 10. I was surprised to find a total of about 40 in the last four months. 


tell sackett said:


> Is that stuff you've been posting in the pf for real, or are you just?
> Thanks for responding.


I am not above the pot stirring, but nothing comes to mind in that area. If you have a particular post in mind, feel free to present it here.


tell sackett said:


> You're right btw. No matter what man may do, our God reigns.


Yes. It is because God reigns that men do anything at all. 

You mentioned, "I can't see how a vote for Trump can match up with Biblical values."

I can't imagine voting for many men in the Bible, whether believers or unbelievers. Yet God used the unbelieving rulers in a mighty way, in the saving and preserving of His people.


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## rjcruiser

The reason I think it is a flawed premise is because I question how "christian" each of the candidates are.  I do think that we've got a few candidates this go around that really do portray a Biblical lifestyle, but I know way to little to try and discern their eternal destination.

With that said, I do think that on the majority of the issues, they all line up with the values on the right.  I think Trump could be stronger on some, but from what he is saying today, he holds the same position as the others (I know...I know...his record shows otherwise).

But...that is why I think the premise of the OP is flawed.

Now...how any Christian can vote for a pro-choice democrat....now, that is beyond me.  




gemcgrew said:


> I can't imagine voting for many men in the Bible, whether believers or unbelievers. Yet God used the unbelieving rulers in a mighty way, in the saving and preserving of His people.





That is the beauty of serving an omniscient & omnipotent God.  For those who believe, all things work together...right?  Even Nero was appointed by God.


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## hobbs27

Faith aside. If I judge the candidates on what my dad taught me about what being a man is. Trump is disqualified. Dad said a man settles his problems one on one, not threatening to file suits against everyone that criticizes them.
Dad said a man stays faithful to his wife.
Dad said a man doesn't go after other mens wives.
Dad said a man respects other people's property.

 These same standards I believe can measure up a man of faith, but Donald Trump is no man.


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## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> Faith aside. If I judge the candidates on what my dad taught me about what being a man is. Trump is disqualified. Dad said a man settles his problems one on one, not threatening to file suits against everyone that criticizes them.
> Dad said a man stays faithful to his wife.
> Dad said a man doesn't go after other mens wives.
> Dad said a man respects other people's property.
> 
> These same standards I believe can measure up a man of faith, but Donald Trump is no man.


Faith aside?

No thank you.


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## swampstalker24

apoint said:


> I would add that a person that does not vote a republican would be the same as voting for a socialist Sanders or a criminal Clinton.
> For evil to prosper is for a good man to do nothing.
> I hope you all remember the last Democratic convention when they all Booed GOD.... Unbelievable...
> That's why I call them Demoncrats...



And yet a democrat got elected.....  Keeping Pappy's post in mind, do you think it was god's will to have obama in office for 8 years?


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## SLUGGER

More like 1 Samuel 8 and God letting Israel elect a king.


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## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> Dad said a man settles his problems one on one, not threatening to file suits against everyone that criticizes them.
> Dad said a man stays faithful to his wife.
> Dad said a man doesn't go after other mens wives.
> Dad said a man respects other people's property.



By these standards, you wouldn't even vote for me!


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## centerpin fan

swampstalker24 said:


> ... do you think it was god's will to have obama in office for 8 years?



God has often used leaders to punish a nation.


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## gemcgrew

SLUGGER said:


> More like 1 Samuel 8 and God letting Israel elect a king.


This king?

"And Samuel said to all the people, See ye him whom the LORD hath chosen, that there is none like him among all the people? And all the people shouted, and said, God save the king." (10:24)


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## PappyHoel

Same God so the question is irrelevant.  If you are trying to out god someone else's candidate, then you are judging.


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## gordon 2

centerpin fan said:


> God has often used leaders to punish a nation.



That's it right there!

Henry Hazlitt's Economics in one Lesson will trump Trump's spiritual life if any one candidate cared to quote from it in my view. But maybe its fullness of time is not yet come?

Sound economic principles in politics should win over neat and wacko spiritual ones. But even wacko spiritual principles could win over wacko economics--- and so "God has often used leaders to punish a nation." 

Yep, I agree.


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## welderguy

The only candidate I know of that has taken an uncompromising stand for prolife is Marco Rubio.
Right now, he is my man.


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## SLUGGER

gemcgrew said:


> This king?
> 
> "And Samuel said to all the people, See ye him whom the LORD hath chosen, that there is none like him among all the people? And all the people shouted, and said, God save the king." (10:24)



Yes, but this king was a reluctant anointment. God had established his judges, Saul was the choice after the people demanded a king.  Saul eventually is rejected by God. Sometimes God allows the masses to have their wants when it is not their need.


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## centerpin fan

welderguy said:


> The only candidate I know of that has taken an uncompromising stand for prolife is Marco Rubio.




Ted Cruz has:

http://theiowarepublican.com/2015/cruz-we-must-defend-the-sanctity-of-every-life/


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## gordon 2

centerpin fan said:


> Ted Cruz has:
> 
> http://theiowarepublican.com/2015/cruz-we-must-defend-the-sanctity-of-every-life/



Yea but he's for limited water boarding which for some Christians might get his pro-life stance in the red. For some Christians infection from one willful sin is infection from sin in general. It's good that he's pro life, but not so good that he's ready to water board it( all be it limited)  for security reasons.

CRUZ: "We must defend the sanctity of every life" seems like worldly baby kissing to some maybe?"

But then the guy ain't perfect. One out of two these days is good.


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## apoint

swampstalker24 said:


> And yet a democrat got elected.....  Keeping Pappy's post in mind, do you think it was god's will to have obama in office for 8 years?



I would hope you know the answer to that.
  God puts all kings in and takes them out.
    With the sins of abortion, gay rights, etc etc, we are luck to not be in slavery.
  How many bad Kings did Israel have and how many times was Israel concord?
   It could very well be America has gone past the tipping point to never return.
 The nation needs to repent from abortion, gay rights etc and pray for a good king.
 If Christians don't do their duty and vote in good Kings then we deserve what we get.
 Not to sound prejudice but most blacks vote demoncratic, the party of gay rights and abortion, and call them selves Christians.
 Anyone voting Demoncratic is not a Christian...........


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## apoint

gordon 2 said:


> Yea but he's for limited water boarding which for some Christians might get his pro-life stance in the red. For some Christians infection from one willful sin is infection from sin in general. It's good that he's pro life, but not so good that he's ready to water board it( all be it limited)  for security reasons.
> 
> CRUZ: "We must defend the sanctity of every life" seems like worldly baby kissing to some maybe?"
> 
> But then the guy ain't perfect. One out of two these days is good.



 Nothing wrong with waterboarding or killing someone that is out to kill you.


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## gordon 2

apoint said:


> I would hope you know the answer to that.
> God puts all kings in and takes them out.
> With the sins of abortion, gay rights, etc etc, we are luck to not be in slavery.
> How many bad Kings did Israel have and how many times was Israel concord?
> It could very well be America has gone past the tipping point to never return.
> The nation needs to repent from abortion, gay rights etc and pray for a good king.
> If Christians don't do their duty and vote in good Kings then we deserve what we get.



Amen to that. Vote in a good figurehead king. It will be a biblical type. And, let congress and local government be your targets to good and bad governance...

Good idea.


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## welderguy

centerpin fan said:


> Ted Cruz has:
> 
> http://theiowarepublican.com/2015/cruz-we-must-defend-the-sanctity-of-every-life/



But is Cruz prolife even in the cases of rape or incest,as Rubio is?
That's what I meant by "uncompromising".


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## gemcgrew

welderguy said:


> But is Cruz prolife even in the cases of rape or incest,as Rubio is?
> That's what I meant by "uncompromising".


Do you have a source for Rubio's position? I was unaware of this.


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## welderguy

gemcgrew said:


> Do you have a source for Rubio's position? I was unaware of this.



He said it very emphatically at one of the debates(forget which).
He said according to his conviction,he would rather lose the election than to compromise on this issue.

I will try to find it on youtube.


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## tell sackett

gemcgrew said:


> Noted and appreciated. I went back to see just how many times I have posted there. I imagined the count to be less than 10. I was surprised to find a total of about 40 in the last four months.
> 
> I am not above the pot stirring, but nothing comes to mind in that area. If you have a particular post in mind, feel free to present it here.
> 
> Yes. It is because God reigns that men do anything at all.
> 
> You mentioned, "I can't see how a vote for Trump can match up with Biblical values."
> 
> I can't imagine voting for many men in the Bible, whether believers or unbelievers. Yet God used the unbelieving rulers in a mighty way, in the saving and preserving of His people.



I read back through some of your posts in the pf today and the one that caught my eye the most was in the "Trump and Sanders" thread(sorry, I don't know how to quote it in this thread) where you replied to P44's request for three reasons to vote for Trump. I get the impression from other posts that you're leaning towards Trump as an appreciation vote as you put it.

Voting wasn't widely practiced back in the day, but I understand your point. You're right, He can and does use the ungodly to carry out His will.

If I have mischaracterized you I apologize; if I have misunderstood, I'm not surprised.


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## tell sackett

rjcruiser said:


> The reason I think it is a flawed premise is because I question how "christian" each of the candidates are.  I do think that we've got a few candidates this go around that really do portray a Biblical lifestyle, but I know way to little to try and discern their eternal destination.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *None of us knows the answer to that question, but we can inspect fruit and make the best judgment we can based on their words and actions. God has given us sanctified common sense, and I believe He expects us to use it.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With that said, I do think that on the majority of the issues, they all line up with the values on the right.  I think Trump could be stronger on some, but from what he is saying today, he holds the same position as the others (I know...I know...his record shows otherwise).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *"A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit."*
> 
> But...that is why I think the premise of the OP is flawed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now...how any Christian can vote for a pro-choice democrat....now, that is beyond me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *That will preach.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is the beauty of serving an omniscient & omnipotent God.  For those who believe, all things work together...right?  Even Nero was appointed by God.
Click to expand...


One thing we agree on. We will get the leader the Lord wills.


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## gemcgrew

tell sackett said:


> I read back through some of your posts in the pf today and the one that caught my eye the most was in the "Trump and Sanders" thread(sorry, I don't know how to quote it in this thread) where you replied to P44's request for three reasons to vote for Trump. I get the impression from other posts that you're leaning towards Trump as an appreciation vote as you put it.





Patriot44 said:


> Please give me three reasons to vote for Trump?  Do not need a paragraph, just three reasons.





gemcgrew said:


> Here are 20.
> 
> Pick your top 3.


I had read the article a couple days prior and thought that it addressed the request.



tell sackett said:


> If I have mischaracterized you I apologize; if I have misunderstood, I'm not surprised.


Don't give it another thought. 

On a side note...
In my teenage years, I read every Louis L'Amour and Zane Grey western. Tell Sackett was my favorite character of all.


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> He said it very emphatically at one of the debates(forget which).
> He said according to his conviction,he would rather lose the election than to compromise on this issue.
> 
> I will try to find it on youtube.




Since Rubio is your guy , you probably know more than most about this story of him and lobbyist amber stoner. What's the true story behind this?


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Since Rubio is your guy , you probably know more than most about this story of him and lobbyist amber stoner. What's the true story behind this?



I don't know a lot about it,only the gossip and speculation from tabloid type sources.I'm pretty sure if there was much truth behind it,we'd all be hearing it loud and clear. I could be wrong though because none of them are above it IMO.


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## rjcruiser

PappyHoel said:


> then you are judging.




Which is Biblical, you know.


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## EverGreen1231

With regard to the possibility of Trump's presidency... "What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?"

"All things work together to the good of those that love God, and are called according to his purpose."


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## apoint

welderguy said:


> I don't know a lot about it,only the gossip and speculation from tabloid type sources.I'm pretty sure if there was much truth behind it,we'd all be hearing it loud and clear. I could be wrong though because none of them are above it IMO.



Rubio has now been bought out by the old Republican establishment.  A vote for him is a vote for things to stay the same, all screwed up, why vote at all.
  Sounds like most here want a perfect life boat as the ship is going under. 
 My Lord people get on board with either trump or Cruz or just be part of the problem..
   No matter who is nominated we have to all vote for him [republican] or our country is finished. Break out your Koran and berkas.


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## welderguy

apoint said:


> Rubio has now been bought out by the old Republican establishment.  A vote for him is a vote for things to stay the same, all screwed up, why vote at all.
> Sounds like most here want a perfect life boat as the ship is going under.
> My Lord people get on board with either trump or Cruz or just be part of the problem..
> No matter who is nominated we have to all vote for him [republican] or our country is finished. Break out your Koran and berkas.[/QUOTE.]
> 
> I don't put my faith in any man for the saving of this country.I believe God can use men for that purpose if He wills to.I also know that America as a nation needs to repent of the gross wickedness of our past.Based on that alone,I must vote for the candidate that I believe will lead us in that direction most effectively.
> 
> I believe this promise still stands for God's people today:
> 2 Chronicles 7:14
> "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."


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## apoint

welderguy said:


> apoint said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rubio has now been bought out by the old Republican establishment.  A vote for him is a vote for things to stay the same, all screwed up, why vote at all.
> Sounds like most here want a perfect life boat as the ship is going under.
> My Lord people get on board with either trump or Cruz or just be part of the problem..
> No matter who is nominated we have to all vote for him [republican] or our country is finished. Break out your Koran and berkas.[/QUOTE.]
> 
> I don't put my faith in any man for the saving of this country.I believe God can use men for that purpose if He wills to.I also know that America as a nation needs to repent of the gross wickedness of our past.Based on that alone,I must vote for the candidate that I believe will lead us in that direction most effectively.
> 
> I believe this promise still stands for God's people today:
> 2 Chronicles 7:14
> "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks but I have read the Bible several times.  What I wrote above is to enlighten people that have blinders on.
> I am sure we are on the same side so when in a war with evil demoncrates its best to pick up the biggest gun to win the war. Peace thru superior fire power.
> Your telling me you like Rubio because he is the most religious, or purest, or what?
> Im telling you he is bought and paid for by the same folks that have been giving Oboma everything Oboma wants. I despise what has been done to this country these past oboma years. I really should not care about Rubio because he has no chance of winning the nomination.........Thank GOD...
Click to expand...


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> apoint said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rubio has now been bought out by the old Republican establishment.  A vote for him is a vote for things to stay the same, all screwed up, why vote at all.
> Sounds like most here want a perfect life boat as the ship is going under.
> My Lord people get on board with either trump or Cruz or just be part of the problem..
> No matter who is nominated we have to all vote for him [republican] or our country is finished. Break out your Koran and berkas.[/QUOTE.]
> 
> I don't put my faith in any man for the saving of this country.I believe God can use men for that purpose if He wills to.I also know that America as a nation needs to repent of the gross wickedness of our past.Based on that alone,I must vote for the candidate that I believe will lead us in that direction most effectively.
> 
> I believe this promise still stands for God's people today:
> 2 Chronicles 7:14
> "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not too sure that verse has anything to do with the U.S. as it was addressed to Solomon.
Click to expand...


----------



## Artfuldodger

apoint said:


> Rubio has now been bought out by the old Republican establishment.  A vote for him is a vote for things to stay the same, all screwed up, why vote at all.
> Sounds like most here want a perfect life boat as the ship is going under.
> My Lord people get on board with either trump or Cruz or just be part of the problem..
> No matter who is nominated we have to all vote for him [republican] or our country is finished. Break out your Koran and berkas.



If the U.S. becomes a Muslim country, what does it prove? The Muslim God is real? The God of Abraham made us a Muslim country or the God of Abraham punished us because of homosexuality and abortions?

How do we balance our individual salvation by grace with the evil works of a nation as it pertains to blessings given and punishment?


----------



## gemcgrew

welderguy said:


> I also know that America as a nation needs to repent of the gross wickedness of our past.Based on that alone,I must vote for the candidate that I believe will lead us in that direction most effectively.


That may very well be Bernie.


----------



## welderguy

gemcgrew said:


> That may very well be Bernie.



This country has a bad case of "calling evil good,and good evil".
Everywhere I look,I see people buying into that. It's an epidemic.


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm not too sure that verse has anything to do with the U.S. as it was addressed to Solomon.



I believe it has EVERYTHING to do with God's people,no matter what country they reside in.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Matthew 5:45
that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

How does this work in to how God awards or punishes nations?
Does a Christian nation get more punishment for evil ways than a pagan nation?
If the US stops evil God will heal our land. What will happen to a pagan nation such as India?

When do we separate how God deals with individuals vs nations when reading scripture? If every scripture is about "God's people" is it based on nations or individuals?


----------



## formula1

*Re:*



welderguy said:


> Artfuldodger said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe it has EVERYTHING to do with God's people,no matter what country they reside in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not only that but let's add a little more context to it:
> 
> 2 Chronicles 7
> 13 When I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or command the locust to devour the land, or send pestilence among my people, 14 if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.
> 
> If you are in Christ today, you are 'His People'.  And the God of Solomon is the same today and yesterday!!!
> 
> So pray and pray and pray, then seek and turn and the power of God will deliver you!
Click to expand...


----------



## Artfuldodger

I believe 2 Chronicles 7:14 is a prayer for a national change of behavior and not a personal change of heart. 
It is a misused verse. It only pertains to the US as a call to prayer.
We can learn from it but it doesn't pertain to the US or individuals change from evil.

Can God's people in India or Denmark use 2 Chronicles 7:14 will God heal their nation?


----------



## formula1

Artfuldodger said:


> I believe 2 Chronicles 7:14 is a prayer for a national change of behavior and not a personal change of heart.
> It is a misused verse. It only pertains to the US as a call to prayer.
> We can learn from it but it doesn't pertain to the US or individuals change from evil.
> 
> Can God's people in India or Denmark use 2 Chronicles 7:14 will God heal their nation?



Yes, those in Christ!  And it has nothing to do with the words persay, but rather the humble seeking and praying, and putting trust in God and God responding accordingly! Further, the land doesn't necessarily reflect a 'nation' (it can) but a petition for a need or situation from God's people and it can be corporately or individually.

I put no limitations on God's word but simply trust Him!!!  

It should be also noted that as we make petition to our Lord, we should also be mindful that His response to our prayer is according to His eternal purpose for us and not simply just for 'us'.  He is building us up in Him and that is His ultimate goal!  God bless!


----------



## apoint

Artfuldodger said:


> If the U.S. becomes a Muslim country, what does it prove? The Muslim God is real? The God of Abraham made us a Muslim country or the God of Abraham punished us because of homosexuality and abortions?
> 
> How do we balance our individual salvation by grace with the evil works of a nation as it pertains to blessings given and punishment?



Muzzy nation means we have been handed over to the enemy pagans. Muzzy god real? give me a break.,.
  Anything between you and God is personal.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

tell sackett said:


> I would like to get some thoughts on how those who are born again arrive at the decision to vote for Trump.



It completely baffles me, but no more so than voting democrat.


----------



## apoint

Originally Posted by tell sackett 
I would like to get some thoughts on how those who are born again arrive at the decision to vote for Trump.

 If Trump is nominated, you have no choice............... Because not voting is a vote for abortion and gay marriage, and not backing Israel just off the top of my head.
 How many of the 10 commandments have you broken?
 You will be judged as you have judged others.
  Sometimes folks should just worry about their own sins,  you know how those glass houses are right?
  Your hero pastor may not be my hero preacher. If the pope ran for prez I would vote for several other delegates. just saying.
     When the ship is sinking are you going to ask the captain if he is a Christian before getting in the life boat?
The Sadducees were very self righteous.


----------



## hobbs27

apoint said:


> Originally Posted by tell sackett
> I would like to get some thoughts on how those who are born again arrive at the decision to vote for Trump.
> 
> If Trump is nominated, you have no choice............... Because not voting is a vote for abortion and gay marriage, and not backing Israel just off the top of my head.
> .



 Hillary is more conservative than Trump on those issues.


----------



## apoint

hobbs27 said:


> Hillary is more conservative than Trump on those issues.



 Sorry guy but hitlery supports abortion, Trump does not.
 Trump supports Israel, hitlery supports oboma...
  Demonrats never came to the aid of Bengazi and dead heros.. Hitlery lied to the families and America. Demonrats never came to the aid of our Navy in Iranian waters.
 If you take up for the baby murders again I will have to  put you on my ignore list to keep my blood pressure in check...


----------



## hobbs27

apoint said:


> Sorry guy but hitlery supports abortion, Trump does not.
> Trump supports Israel, hitlery supports oboma...
> Demonrats never came to the aid of Bengazi and dead heros.. Hitlery lied to the families and America. Demonrats never came to the aid of our Navy in Iranian waters.
> If you take up for the baby murders again I will have to  put you on my ignore list to keep my blood pressure in check...




Trump said he will remain neutral on Israel and Palestine.
Trump said he wants to continue funding pp.
Trump has always been a Democrat ..I believe he still is, He's funded the election of pro abortion candidates many many times through the years, he has the blood on his hands.
 Lastly I'm not defending the Dems, but he is one so voting for him and  expecting something different than Hillary doesn't make sense.


----------



## tell sackett

SemperFiDawg said:


> It completely baffles me, but no more so than voting democrat.



Is there a difference?


----------



## tell sackett

apoint said:


> Originally Posted by tell sackett
> I would like to get some thoughts on how those who are born again arrive at the decision to vote for Trump.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If Trump is nominated, you have no choice...............
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *I beg to differ.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because not voting is a vote for abortion and gay marriage, and not backing Israel just off the top of my head.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Trump has stated that his rabidly pro abortion(including partial birth abortion) sister would make a great Supreme. He has spoken favorably of same sex marriage. He said he would be neutral on Israel/ Palestine.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How many of the 10 commandments have you broken?
> You will be judged as you have judged others.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Judge righteous judgment.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes folks should just worry about their own sins,  you know how those glass houses are right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Dogs and hogs.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your hero pastor may not be my hero preacher. If the pope ran for prez I would vote for several other delegates. just saying.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *I'm not voting for a preacher.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When the ship is sinking are you going to ask the captain if he is a Christian before getting in the life boat?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *He's still on the ship.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Sadducees were very self righteous
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Actually, the Sadducees were theologically liberal. Now, the Pharisees...*
Click to expand...


Just sayin'.


----------



## apoint

tell sackett said:


> Just sayin'.



If you want to believe that bunk go for it.
  You must get your information from CNN.
  Next you will be voting for another oboma-hitlery.
 Its plain to see you folks don't watch the debates.
 So I see if Trump is nominated you will vote Demonrat.


----------



## tell sackett




----------



## apoint

tell sackett said:


>



Just so we are on the same page.
  The tyrants "Republicans" have been voting with the demorats for many years now. So pick your poision.
 I have been transparent on my picks.
   Cruz seems to be the closes to biblical principals and I am going with him. But I will vote for whoever the Rep nomination is because we have to stop the democrats before they destroy our country. That would be the GODLY thing to do. 
 NOT voting is a vote for the  God haters.
Again, "for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing".........


----------



## Israel

apoint said:


> Just so we are on the same page.
> The tyrants "Republicans" have been voting with the demorats for many years now. So pick your poision.
> I have been transparent on my picks.
> Cruz seems to be the closes to biblical principals and I am going with him. But I will vote for whoever the Rep nomination is because we have to stop the democrats before they destroy our country. That would be the GODLY thing to do.
> NOT voting is a vote for the  God haters.
> Again, "for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing".........


I fear that "quote" almost as much as I fear anything.

I am not sure I have ever met a man who is convinced his doing is less than good. Only one. He said he only did as he was told. Seems he had no interest in proving he was good, even left it open to question. How far is this one from those who assume their own goodness, and then seek to act from it. In hope of making "their own" goodness known. Men...like me.
Vote with our feet perhaps. Can we follow? May we?
A thing must reveal its nature.


----------



## apoint

Israel said:


> I fear that "quote" almost as much as I fear anything.
> 
> I am not sure I have ever met a man who is convinced his doing is less than good. Only one. He said he only did as he was told. Seems he had no interest in proving he was good, even left it open to question. How far is this one from those who assume their own goodness, and then seek to act from it. In hope of making "their own" goodness known. Men...like me.
> Vote with our feet perhaps. Can we follow? May we?
> A thing must reveal its nature.



Thought God said don't fear? Fear muddies judgment.
 Don't be scared, speak clearly and make a bold statement. 
Someone said," If you don't stand for something you will fall for anything.
   Some just keep philosophizing till they are in the grave, other are waiting for Jesus to run for president.
   I tell you the demonrats and commies are taking over while the fence sitters don't vote.
 I have yet to hear from anyone who they are voting for?


----------



## apoint

tell sackett said:


> Just sayin'.



If Trump is nominated who are you voting for? Hitlery?


----------



## apoint

Hitlery for prison.


----------



## hummerpoo

When the media informs us on election night: who we elected, why we elected them, who the smart voters were, who the stupid voters were, why the right guy won or lost, what the right guy did that was right, what the wrong guy did that was wrong, what the right guy will do or would have done in office; they inevitably touch on, the now quickly becoming most important question, “Who should we vote for in the upcoming election four years hence.”

When we follow their lead, spending much of our time worshiping at that idol, are we not of the world rather than just in it.
Should we not each evaluate our idols regularly.

Ps:119
59 I considered my ways
And turned my feet to Your testimonies.
Lam:3
40 Let us examine and probe our ways,
And let us return to the LORD.
Mat. 7:
5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.

I sure have expended a lot of time lately on my fishing tackle.


----------



## hobbs27

http://www.redbubble.com/people/cometman/writing/2153433-john-jay-quote-of-the-day


----------



## hobbs27

[D]oes the fact that we’re electing a president—not a pastor (or priest or pope)—mean that the president doesn’t need to have a solid moral base? That he doesn’t need integrity? That he can mistreat and abuse others? That he can be petulant, self-centered and nasty? That ethics don’t matter since he’s our political leader not our spiritual leader?

What kind of thinking is that?
http://americanvision.org/13067/yes-you-are-electing-a-pastor-not-just-a-president/


----------



## apoint

less fence sitting more action. This is Not rocket science folks.
 Either be part of the solution or part of the problem.
 Remember there will be no voting in heaven so this is your last chance to try to do right. I know its tough but so is life.
 Maybe next time you can run for president and everybody can throw stones at you.


----------



## Israel

hobbs27 said:


> [D]oes the fact that we’re electing a president—not a pastor (or priest or pope)—mean that the president doesn’t need to have a solid moral base? That he doesn’t need integrity? That he can mistreat and abuse others? That he can be petulant, self-centered and nasty? That ethics don’t matter since he’s our political leader not our spiritual leader?
> 
> What kind of thinking is that?
> http://americanvision.org/13067/yes-you-are-electing-a-pastor-not-just-a-president/



Brother,
Hasn't that question been answered already? Ain't it strange how shoes and feet get so mixed up?
Remember when folks made such a big issue (and perhaps very rightly so) "Character Matters!" in the period of electing a  particular leader? We got what we got (so to speak), and I know many would argue we (the nation) have been paying for it since.
Understand bro, your point is a good one, I am simply being a little "long sighted".
I can't help but consider that more than a few of that opinion...who once shouted "Character Matters" at what they saw as a libidinous silver tongued devil now vaguely dismiss that issue when matters of character of their champion come into question.

Is it that the people are rather flexible in their applications of character?

I suppose it all depends upon what the meaning of "is", is.


----------



## apoint

Funny how many voted in people of character [moral] have stabbed the American people in the back. We voted in a preacher from Winder GA last secession and the first thing he did was break his promise to the ones that voted him in. Ill be kind enough to not mention his name but it starts with Jody Hice.
  So there goes the moral vote.


----------



## welderguy

apoint said:


> Funny how many voted in people of character [moral] have stabbed the American people in the back. We voted in a preacher from Winder GA last secession and the first thing he did was break his promise to the ones that voted him in. Ill be kind enough to not mention his name but it starts with Jody Hice.
> So there goes the moral vote.



So who is it that you are trying to get us to vote for?

I'm hearing a lot of bold statements about voting a certain way, but I don't even know who you think is the right candidate and why. You're kinda like a truck stuck in the mud with its wheels spinning and slinging a lot of mud but going nowhere.


----------



## apoint

welderguy said:


> So who is it that you are trying to get us to vote for?
> 
> I'm hearing a lot of bold statements about voting a certain way, but I don't even know who you think is the right candidate and why. You're kinda like a truck stuck in the mud with its wheels spinning and slinging a lot of mud but going nowhere.



Apparently Iv been wasting my time and energy if that's your deduction.
Vote for whoever you like. Im not too much on repeating myself.
 You only have 2 choices, Cruz or Trump. Or be part of the problem and don't vote, which is a vote for hitlery.
  I have made up my mind and you call me stuck in the mud. That is hilarious. Hope you all can figure it out before the rapture tomorrow.


----------



## welderguy

apoint said:


> Apparently Iv been wasting my time and energy if that's your deduction.
> Vote for whoever you like. Im not too much on repeating myself.
> You only have 2 choices, Cruz or Trump. Or be part of the problem and don't vote, which is a vote for hitlery.
> I have made up my mind and you call me stuck in the mud. That is hilarious. Hope you all can figure it out before the rapture tomorrow.



Again, you talk a big talk, but you are not really being clear on what you are saying.State your point, then give us reasons that support your point.
All I'm hearing is vote for Trump or Cruz...or don't vote at all. Which is it and most importantly, WHY ??


----------



## apoint

welderguy said:


> Again, you talk a big talk, but you are not really being clear on what you are saying.State your point, then give us reasons that support your point.
> All I'm hearing is vote for Trump or Cruz...or don't vote at all. Which is it and most importantly, WHY ??



I thought I said take your pick. Apparently your not listening.
 Too late its voting day. Hope your comfortable sitting on the fence.


----------



## welderguy

apoint said:


> I thought I said take your pick. Apparently your not listening.
> Too late its voting day. Hope your comfortable sitting on the fence.



Ive already picked. And still can not figure out why you think any of us are sitting on the fence. What fence?


----------



## apoint

welderguy said:


> Ive already picked. And still can not figure out why you think any of us are sitting on the fence. What fence?



Picking aint voting.......
But did you vote, and who did you vote for?
 Ill go first, I voted Cruz. and will vote for whoever gets the Rep, nomination...
  Your turn..


----------



## welderguy

apoint said:


> Picking aint voting.......
> But did you vote, and who did you vote for?
> Ill go first, I voted Cruz. and will vote for whoever gets the Rep, nomination...
> Your turn..



Went after work and voted for Cruz.


----------



## apoint

welderguy said:


> Went after work and voted for Cruz.



Me too..

Reason Im a bit zealous about voting is #1, every veteran living or dead has fought to give us a free country that we can vote.
  I vote conservative every chance I get because it is my duty.. Anyone that wont vote because his guy did not make it, I have no respect for. If your not going to fight then just lay dn and die cause their breathing my air.


----------



## centerpin fan

> Trump has won the support of one-third of self-identified born-again Christians across the dozen or so states that have held GOP contests and where exit polls were conducted. In eight of the presidential primaries, he won more evangelicals than Ted Cruz, a Southern Baptist who has made appeals to conservative Christians the core of his campaign, according to polling....
> 
> 
> ... Critics insist exit polls have overstated Trump's share of evangelical support, arguing that many voters identifying themselves as "born again" in primaries are only nominally Christian.



http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...istian-voters/ar-BBqqFpK?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=iehp


----------



## apoint

In this day and age of living in Babylon America, the government is full of corrupt, evil people. So to compare Trump with the worst government we have ever had, Trump is an angle.
  Keep voting for these career politicians and you will get the same out come. Im glad Trump is on the scene, he is the only one that has brought Americas problems to the fore front and is going to do something about it.
  Of coarse you could vote for a federal investigated liar or a Socialist-commie. A few more Benghazi or Iranian nuke deals for sure.


----------



## Rich M

tell sackett said:


> I'm lifting my ban temporarily to try and get some answers to a question that has been puzzling me. If any are willing I would like to get some thoughts on how those who are born again arrive at the decision to vote for Trump.
> 
> Your vote is your own. I don't ask in a critical manner, but knowing the life he has,and apparently still is, living I can't see how a vote for Trump can match up with Biblical values. Perhaps I'm missing something. I know we're not electing a pastor, but I believe we are to vote our faith as much as possible.
> 
> Thanks.



Okay...  How can a Christian vote Democrat?


Democrats are against GOD (in school, government, the 10 commandments in the judicial system, etc.), 
they are anti-military, 
they are pro-homosexuality, 
they are pro-abortion, 
they are pro-welfare (Paul says something about what to do if a guy won't work), 
they want socialized medicine (Obamacare),
they want to increase minimum wage but not all wages,
they are pro-division (blacks vs whites, rich vs poor, english vs spanish, etc.),
they are anti-gun,
they do not punish criminals and let many out of jail, 
they want to change laws to make things like drugs and "minor" crimes un-punishable, 
they are pro illegal immigrants, 
they are pro big government (pro establishment), 
they also want to raise taxes.
Hillary is part of the establishment.
Bernie is a communist.

How can a Christian vote Trump?


He is for America, 
he is pro-life,
he is against gun control,
he wants to go back to charging trade tariffs to create more jobs, 
he wants to stop the wave of people illegally coming to our country,
he wants to strengthen the military, 
he wants to bring industries back and let the increase in income raise the tax base, 
he is for smaller government, 
he is not part of the establishment.

I love that he says what he wants and doesn't apologize when some bleeding heart whiner complains.

I am pro-GOD, pro-America, pro-made-in-USA sticker lover, pro-military, and ANTI-ESTABLISHMENT.  My only option is TRUMP.

I will vote for Trump or whoever beats him in the primaries.  IF the establishment goes behind closed-doors (like Obama did with Obamacare) and appoints the guy from Ohio or something in some political overture, I will either refrain for voting for their man and vote against every republican on the ballot, or not vote.

SO TIRED of this political mumbo-jumbo.  And you should be too.  Think any of them are telling the truth?  Get real!

As for people, such as the OP said - vote your heart & beliefs.  IF YOU ARE a true Christian, you cannot vote Democrat.  The Bible does not support Democratic votes - check out my points from above.  The bad Dems far outweigh the bad Donald.

Just saying.


----------



## tell sackett

Rich M said:


> Okay...  How can a Christian vote Democrat?
> 
> 
> Democrats are against GOD (in school, government, the 10 commandments in the judicial system, etc.),
> they are anti-military,
> they are pro-homosexuality,
> they are pro-abortion,
> they are pro-welfare (Paul says something about what to do if a guy won't work),
> they want socialized medicine (Obamacare),
> they want to increase minimum wage but not all wages,
> they are pro-division (blacks vs whites, rich vs poor, english vs spanish, etc.),
> they are anti-gun,
> they do not punish criminals and let many out of jail,
> they want to change laws to make things like drugs and "minor" crimes un-punishable,
> they are pro illegal immigrants,
> they are pro big government (pro establishment),
> they also want to raise taxes.
> Hillary is part of the establishment.
> Bernie is a communist.
> 
> How can a Christian vote Trump?
> 
> 
> He is for America,
> he wants to go back to charging trade tariffs to create more jobs,
> he wants to stop the wave of people illegally coming to our country,
> he wants to strengthen the military,
> he wants to bring industries back and let the increase in income raise the tax base,
> he is for smaller government,
> he is not part of the establishment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I love that he says what he wants and doesn't apologize when some bleeding heart whiner complains.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *What's your opinion of the vulgarity that he uses?*
> 
> 
> I am pro-GOD, pro-America, pro-made-in-USA sticker lover, pro-military, and ANTI-ESTABLISHMENT.  My only option is TRUMP.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will vote for Trump or whoever beats him in the primaries.  IF the establishment goes behind closed-doors (like Obama did with Obamacare) and appoints the guy from Ohio or something in some political overture, I will either refrain for voting for their man and vote against every republican on the ballot, or not vote.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *If the establishment tries some of the shenanigans that are rumored to be in the works, I believe we'll see a voter uprising like never before. It would be absolutely stupid.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SO TIRED of this political mumbo-jumbo.  And you should be too.  Think any of them are telling the truth?  Get real!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Do you really think Trump is telling the truth?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for people, such as the OP said - vote your heart & beliefs.  IF YOU ARE a true Christian, you cannot vote Democrat.  The Bible does not support Democratic votes - check out my points from above.  The bad Dems far outweigh the bad Donald.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Unfortunately, I believe bad Donald is one of the bad Democrats.*
> 
> Just saying.
Click to expand...


The right to vote is a precious, blood bought freedom. Use it.


----------



## Rich M

How many of your good church going hunting and fishing buddies swear and use profanity?  

How many church going men oogle women?

Level the field - use the same standards you would on your friends and fellow church goers.

I agree that the right to vote should not be taken for granted.  EVERYONE should be required to vote.

We'll likely find out about the Duck, or have a civil war when Hillary comes for the guns.


----------



## tell sackett

Rich M said:


> How many of your good church going hunting and fishing buddies swear and use profanity?
> 
> How many church going men oogle women?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *I can honestly say very, very few. If they were, I'd be looking for another church.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Level the field - use the same standards you would on your friends and fellow church goers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *The standard is the same (starting with me), and it is divine.*
> 
> I agree that the right to vote should not be taken for granted.  EVERYONE should be required to vote.
> 
> We'll likely find out about the Duck, or have a civil war when Hillary comes for the guns.
Click to expand...


I almost forgot, thanks for your response.


----------



## gordon 2

Give to Caesar what is his. So I asked God on it. And so I don't what to walk in an economic minefield-- more than anyone else.  So I asked where are the fields, and where are the mines and who would best keep them under tarps.

The battle for peace is sometimes a battle to know who to ask stuff about important stuff.


 1 Corinthian 13: 9 Our knowledge, our prophecy, are only glimpses of the truth; 10 and these glimpses will be swept away when the time of fulfilment comes.


----------



## hobbs27

Rich M said:


> How many of your good church going hunting and fishing buddies swear and use profanity?
> 
> How many church going men oogle women?
> 
> Level the field - use the same standards you would on your friends and fellow church goers.
> 
> I agree that the right to vote should not be taken for granted.  EVERYONE should be required to vote.
> 
> We'll likely find out about the Duck, or have a civil war when Hillary comes for the guns.



I disagree about everyone should vote, I also disagree folks should be required to vote. 
 Matter of fact I'm in favor of restricting more votes. I don't believe someone on govt assistance should be allowed to vote, and I don't think people under 25 should be voting unless they are enlisted in the military.


----------



## apoint

hobbs27 said:


> I disagree about everyone should vote, I also disagree folks should be required to vote.
> Matter of fact I'm in favor of restricting more votes. I don't believe someone on govt assistance should be allowed to vote,
> So no disabled should vote?
> 
> 
> and I don't think people under 25 should be voting unless they are enlisted in the military.



This might work cause most of them are libs.

Good luck with your dreaming.


----------



## apoint

Democrats are against GOD (in school, government, the 10 commandments in the judicial system, etc.), 
they are anti-military, 
they are pro-homosexuality, 
they are pro-abortion, 
they are pro-welfare (Paul says something about what to do if a guy won't work), 
they want socialized medicine (Obamacare), 
they want to increase minimum wage but not all wages, 
they are pro-division (blacks vs whites, rich vs poor, english vs spanish, etc.), 
they are anti-gun, 
they do not punish criminals and let many out of jail, 
they want to change laws to make things like drugs and "minor" crimes un-punishable, 
they are pro illegal immigrants, 
they are pro big government (pro establishment), 
they also want to raise taxes. 
Hillary is part of the establishment. 
Bernie is a communist.

You forgot bill and hitlery are cartel murders, thieves, and want to let Syrian terrorist into our country by the millions. etc etc..


----------



## hobbs27

apoint said:


> This might work cause most of them are libs.
> 
> Good luck with your dreaming.



Thanks for the good luck to my dreams. Just because someone is disabled doesn't mean they are automatically at the mercy of govt. 

In my dream they would find ways to make money using their abilities , not drowning in misery of disability and being dependant on stealing through taxation. 

If its just such a bad case they can't , they will find charity in family and church. 

Is the church so weak that it can build multi-million dollar facilities send missionaries all over the world, while the disable in America starve?


----------



## apoint

I will repeat because Im tired of seeing my country diminished to the sewer.
 Anyone that does not vote or does not vote for the rep nominated person needs to stop breathing.
   Our country can not survive another democrat leadership.
 You big tough so called outdoorsmen crying about Trump saying Schlong or some off colored talk is just pure wimpy, Christian or not. Maybe you folks need to find a new church that doesn't teach hatered for his fellow man. Jesus said there is not one good but God. Everyone of you has broken every one of the 10 commandments yet talk this self-righteous bunk.
  Oh my church and preacher and congragation are righteous, they never fall short, please take the log out of your own eye first. 
   Yea keep kicking Trump when he just may be your only last hope.  
  Your country is being took over by abortionist selling baby parts and communist and your crying about off colored words.
  Your a bunch of self-righteous P.C. wimps in my book.. 
 Now go back to your whimpering and get out of the way, I have a country to save..


----------



## apoint

hobbs27 said:


> Thanks for the good luck to my dreams. Just because someone is disabled doesn't mean they are automatically at the mercy of govt.
> 
> In my dream they would find ways to make money using their abilities , not drowning in misery of disability and being dependant on stealing through taxation.
> 
> If its just such a bad case they can't , they will find charity in family and church.
> 
> Is the church so weak that it can build multi-million dollar facilities send missionaries all over the world, while the disable in America starve?


 
Sorry to say you are delusional. If a person cant work they have no income. I hope that never happens to you.
 You call yourself a Christian and call disabled people thieves.. Im done here.........


----------



## hayseed_theology

apoint said:


> I will repeat because Im tired of seeing my country diminished to the sewer.
> Anyone that does not vote or does not vote for the rep nominated person needs to stop breathing.
> Our country can not survive another democrat leadership.
> You big tough so called outdoorsmen crying about Trump saying Schlong or some off colored talk is just pure wimpy, Christian or not. Maybe you folks need to find a new church that doesn't teach hatered for his fellow man. Jesus said there is not one good but God. Everyone of you has broken every one of the 10 commandments yet talk this self-righteous bunk.
> Oh my church and preacher and congragation are righteous, they never fall short, please take the log out of your own eye first.
> Yea keep kicking Trump when he just may be your only last hope.
> Your country is being took over by abortionist selling baby parts and communist and your crying about off colored words.
> Your a bunch of self-righteous P.C. wimps in my book..
> Now go back to your whimpering and get out of the way, I have a country to save..



The man brags about the dirty money he made in a strip club casino before he bankrupted it.  He brags about committing adultery.  He uses all manner of vulgarities in public discourse, including the f-word.  He tears others down with his vitriolic rhetoric and fans the flames of anger and hatred.  He says he's never asked God for forgiveness for anything because he's a such good person.  He is not a sheep; he is a wolf in wolf's clothing.

I cannot vote for the man with a clean conscience.  If that makes me a self-righteous, PC wimp that needs to stop breathing in your book, so be it.  But it's not you I'll be standing before on judgment day.  My name was written in His book long ago.


----------



## hobbs27

God help the man that thinks Trump is his last and only hope.

And.  Taxation is theft.


----------



## gemcgrew

hayseed_theology said:


> The man brags about the dirty money he made in a strip club casino before he bankrupted it.  He brags about committing adultery.  He uses all manner of vulgarities in public discourse, including the f-word.  He tears others down with his vitriolic rhetoric and fans the flames of anger and hatred.  He says he's never asked God for forgiveness for anything because he's a such good person.  He is not a sheep; he is a wolf in wolf's clothing.
> 
> I cannot vote for the man with a clean conscience.  If that makes me a self-righteous, PC wimp that needs to stop breathing in your book, so be it.  But it's not you I'll be standing before on judgment day.  My name was written in His book long ago.


You just described the condition of the human heart. You did it from a third party perspective. Who, absent favoritism, has earned your "clean conscience" vote?


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

tell sackett said:


> I'm lifting my ban temporarily to try and get some answers to a question that has been puzzling me. If any are willing I would like to get some thoughts on how those who are born again arrive at the decision to vote for Trump.
> 
> Your vote is your own. I don't ask in a critical manner, but knowing the life he has,and apparently still is, living I can't see how a vote for Trump can match up with Biblical values. Perhaps I'm missing something. I know we're not electing a pastor, but I believe we are to vote our faith as much as possible.
> 
> Thanks.



Pay unto Caesar what is Caesars. 

The reason the 1st Amendment exist is for the Government to "ALLOW" you to worship as you choose, to pick your own religion, your own belief system. It has nothing to do with you electing someone from your own faith or belief system. 

The 1st Amendment was written to protect those religious freedoms which were not had in pre-migration England where it was an expectation, not a choice. 

Likewise, there is no reasonable expectation that you would mandate a closure or breach of that delineation between government and religion with your support or vote for a government official. Certainly you would not be expected to support or vote for someone that posed a danger to your religious freedoms, but there is no biblical mandate that you support someone that believes exactly as you do. 

Such religious extremism and microscopic scrutiny of a candidates life is what brought us eight years of Obama and strengthened the Political Power Establishment on both sides of the aisle in their quest for a Socialist America. 

Be careful of what litmus test you use to measure your political choices, the consequences could have the opposite effect of what you desire and you could inadvertently lose those 1st Amendment rights, as well as many other rights.


----------



## tell sackett

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Pay unto Caesar what is Caesars.
> 
> The reason the 1st Amendment exist is for the Government to "ALLOW" you to worship as you choose, to pick your own religion, your own belief system. It has nothing to do with you electing someone from your own faith or belief system.
> 
> The 1st Amendment was written to protect those religious freedoms which were not had in pre-migration England where it was an expectation, not a choice.
> 
> Likewise, there is no reasonable expectation that you would mandate a closure or breach of that delineation between government and religion with your support or vote for a government official. Certainly you would not be expected to support or vote for someone that posed a danger to your religious freedoms, but there is no biblical mandate that you support someone that believes exactly as you do.
> 
> Such religious extremism and microscopic scrutiny of a candidates life is what brought us eight years of Obama and strengthened the Political Power Establishment on both sides of the aisle in their quest for a Socialist America.
> 
> Be careful of what litmus test you use to measure your political choices, the consequences could have the opposite effect of what you desire and you could inadvertently lose those 1st Amendment rights, as well as many other rights.



I am well aware of why the 1A was written. I am not looking for a candidate who believes exactly as I do, nor have I made such a statement. I did, however, vote in the primary for the candidate whose values came the closest to mine. This is in no way "religious extremism", it is simply living out my faith. It is not the only litmus test I use, but it is certainly one of the foundations of my political beliefs.

If Trump is the nominee come Nov., how does a Christian justify a vote for him? I understand the anger, I'm angry too. I'm pretty much sick of the whole crowd, but is voting for Trump a vote that matches up with a biblical worldview?

Prov.29:2


----------



## tell sackett

hayseed_theology said:


> The man brags about the dirty money he made in a strip club casino before he bankrupted it.  He brags about committing adultery.  He uses all manner of vulgarities in public discourse, including the f-word.  He tears others down with his vitriolic rhetoric and fans the flames of anger and hatred.  He says he's never asked God for forgiveness for anything because he's a such good person.  He is not a sheep; he is a wolf in wolf's clothing.
> 
> I cannot vote for the man with a clean conscience.  If that makes me a self-righteous, PC wimp that needs to stop breathing in your book, so be it.  But it's not you I'll be standing before on judgment day.  My name was written in His book long ago.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

tell sackett said:


> I am well aware of why the 1A was written. I am not looking for a candidate who believes exactly as I do, nor have I made such a statement. I did, however, vote in the primary for the candidate whose values came the closest to mine. This is in no way "religious extremism", it is simply living out my faith. It is not the only litmus test I use, but it is certainly one of the foundations of my political beliefs.
> 
> If Trump is the nominee come Nov., how does a Christian justify a vote for him? I understand the anger, I'm angry too. I'm pretty much sick of the whole crowd, but is voting for Trump a vote that matches up with a biblical worldview?
> 
> Prov.29:2


It is up to us as Christians to propagate and foster the spread of the Good News, not our politicians. To cast such a requirement upon them via our voting criteria is living in denial. 

I have never known a great Christian that was a good political leader, likewise I have never known a great Political Leader that was a model Christian. 

Something about a having a cake and being able to eat it too applies here.


----------



## tell sackett

Miguel Cervantes said:


> It is up to us as Christians to propagate and foster the spread of the Good News, not our politicians.To cast such a requirement upon them via our voting criteria is living in denial.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Please feel free to post up where I have suggested any such thing. Pure strawman.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have never known a great Christian that was a good political leader, likewise I have never known a great Political Leader that was a model Christian.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Who's looking for a model Christian?*
> 
> Something about a having a cake and being able to eat it too applies here.
Click to expand...


Speaking of denial.


----------



## apoint

hayseed_theology said:


> The man brags about the dirty money he made in a strip club casino before he bankrupted it.  He brags about committing adultery.  He uses all manner of vulgarities in public discourse, including the f-word.  He tears others down with his vitriolic rhetoric and fans the flames of anger and hatred.  He says he's never asked God for forgiveness for anything because he's a such good person.  He is not a sheep; he is a wolf in wolf's clothing.
> 
> I cannot vote for the man with a clean conscience.  If that makes me a self-righteous, PC wimp that needs to stop breathing in your book, so be it.  But it's not you I'll be standing before on judgment day.  My name was written in His book long ago.



Your welcome to your point of view even if it came straight from the democrats.
  Show us the facts on the slander of trump you propose. 
 #1 Brags about Dirty money..
 #2 Brags about adultery..
 #3 Using the F word..
 #4 So other politicians don't inflame speech.?
 #5 Never ask God for forgiveness is between him and God.
     This same rhetoric comes straight from the mouth of hillery, you should be so proud.
  Now, if your going to mudsling democratic talking points you should at least show proof of your statements.


----------



## hummerpoo

Election day was my birthday, and I was eligible to vote for the first time.  My ballot was absentee and post marked NSF DaNang (or FPO, San Francisco, I’m not sure).  After that I built a 40 year record of NEVER having missed an opportunity to cast a vote on any office and issue where I was eligible; I even took pride in most of my ballot #’s being single digit.  Then it occurred to me how many times I had cast my vote for the lesser of evils, which is, undeniably, a vote for evil.  I still vote, but many of my votes could be properly categorized as protest votes, and there are a lot of blank areas on most ballots.  Each of those decisions being made in consort with the Spirit, harangue and castigation only engenders mirth.

I pray that, as we rest in the Lord, this Palm Sunday will bring each of us to a more full recognition of the gift we have been given through the Son of God.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

tell sackett said:


> Speaking of denial.



My comments to your opening post, not to your personal beliefs, were just that. The sooner you start responding in a neutral "post discussion" manner regarding the topic at hand and stop taking everything so personally the sooner we can have a mature discussion.

Good day.


----------



## gemcgrew

tell sackett said:


> If Trump is the nominee come Nov., how does a Christian justify a vote for him?


This is easy for me. If I am compelled to vote, absent clear direction, I may simply draw a name from a hat.

Proverbs 16:33


----------



## tell sackett

Miguel Cervantes said:


> My comments to your opening post, not to your personal beliefs, were just that. The sooner you start responding in a neutral "post discussion" manner regarding the topic at hand and stop taking everything so personally the sooner we can have a mature discussion.
> 
> Good day.



Taking it personally?



Miguel Cervantes said:


> It is up to us as Christians to propagate and foster the spread of the Good News, not our politicians. To cast such a requirement upon them via our voting criteria is living in denial.
> I have never known a great Christian that was a good political leader, likewise I have never known a great Political Leader that was a model Christian.
> 
> Something about a having a cake and being able to eat it too applies here.



Please feel free to post up where _anyone_ has suggested any such thing. Pure strawman.

Perhaps this revision will meet the high standard of maturity.


----------



## tell sackett

gemcgrew said:


> This is easy for me. If I am compelled to vote, absent clear direction, I may simply draw a name from a hat.
> 
> Proverbs 16:33



Yes, the decision is the Lord's, but if we don't seek His face, He will give us the King we desire.


----------



## hayseed_theology

apoint said:


> Your welcome to your point of view even if it came straight from the democrats.
> Show us the facts on the slander of trump you propose.
> #1 Brags about Dirty money..
> #2 Brags about adultery..
> #3 Using the F word..
> #4 So other politicians don't inflame speech.?
> #5 Never ask God for forgiveness is between him and God.
> This same rhetoric comes straight from the mouth of hillery, you should be so proud.
> Now, if your going to mudsling democratic talking points you should at least show proof of your statements.



I think that's a fair request.  I made some assertions, but are they credible?

1.  I have watched most of the debates.  Every time he is questioned about his losses in Atlantic City, Trump responds with something like - "Well, I made a lot of money there before everything went bad."  His response to that particular criticism is a boast that he did, in fact, make a lot of money there.  I don't think that's in question, but if it is, I could go find the quote somewhere.  

But your question seems to be about the "dirty" part of it.  When I say "dirty," I do not mean illegal.  Just to be clear on that, I am not accusing Trump of breaking the law.  When I say "dirty," I mean immoral.  Trump was heavily invested in the gambling industry in Atlantic City.  Casinos are viciously predatory institutions that promote and prey on greed.  Trump also has the dubious distinction of owning the first casino with a strip club in it.  Profiting from immorality and vice is dirty.  Encouraging sinful behavior for the sake financial gain and then boasting about the money made is what I label "bragging about dirty money."

If you are interested in reading up on Trump's Atlantic City fiasco from a business side, you can do so here:  http://www.phillymag.com/news/2015/08/16/donald-trump-atlantic-city-empire/

2.  As for him bragging about adultery, I will give you a few quotes from the man himself.  

From his book, Think Big - "Oftentimes when I was sleeping with one of the top women in the world I would say to myself, thinking about me as a boy from Queens, "Can you believe what I am getting?"

From an interview with Esquire - "You know, it doesn't really matter what [the media] write as long as you've got a young and beautiful piece of [expletive]."

From The Art of the Deal - “If I told the real stories of my experiences with women, often seemingly very happily married and important women, this book would be a guaranteed best-seller.” 

Did I mention that he appeared on the cover of Playboy?  He was fully clothed in a tux, but the model next time him appears wearing only his jacket.  Is that not flaunting immorality?

3.  Go to YouTube and search "Donald Trump Swearing" or something to that effect.  You will find plenty of evidence.  I would be banned if I posted the video here.

4.  You are correct that many other politicians use inflammatory speech.  Kasich seems to be the only one staying above the fray this go round.  Trump's language has been unusually divisive though.  Trump has taken it to a whole different level. Everyone talks about how Trump has "tapped into the anger" of the American people.  He is stirring it up and using it to his advantage.  As I heard one Trump supporter say, "We are voting with our middle finger."  I am not saying all Trump supporters are angry, but anger has been a hallmark of his campaign.

5.  When a man claims he is being audited by the IRS because he is "such a strong Christian," but doesn't feel the need to ask God for forgiveness, he is distorting the message of Christianity.  Forgiveness is at the very heart of the Christian message.  If he doesn't need forgiveness, then he doesn't need a Savior.  How is that Christian?  I don't think he maliciously misrepresents Christianity.  I think he just doesn't know what the real message of Christianity is.  I think there is some serious pandering to "evangelicals" going on, but I don't think he realizes what he is doing.


I am not trying to sling mud at Trump.  If I am misrepresenting the facts, please correct me.  

It's funny.  I have never been accused of being a Democrat until I started questioning Trump.  I am a lifelong Republican, but the minute I point out some of his flaws somebody always accuses me of being a Democrat.  Unlike Trump, I have never supported Hillary, and I never will.


----------



## hayseed_theology

Not ignoring you, gemcgrew.  Just don't have time to respond right now.


----------



## formula1

*Re:*

I'm not really liking Trump but I will never vote for a Democrat for reasons that others have mentioned.  I will also not waste a vote on a third party as a protest as that generally always plays in favor of Democrats.

Cruz and Kasich I will gladly vote for.  Trump will force me to hold my nose but I will do my civic duty to try and stop the liberals and socialists even though I'm not sure it will help.

But the real truth is just maybe God is in control of it all in the end and that is all that matters.


----------



## apoint

hayseed_theology said:


> I think that's a fair request.  I made some assertions, but are they credible?
> 
> 1.  I have watched most of the debates.  Every time he is questioned about his losses in Atlantic City, Trump responds with something like - "Well, I made a lot of money there before everything went bad."  His response to that particular criticism is a boast that he did, in fact, make a lot of money there.  I don't think that's in question, but if it is, I could go find the quote somewhere.
> 
> But your question seems to be about the "dirty" part of it.  When I say "dirty," I do not mean illegal.  Just to be clear on that, I am not accusing Trump of breaking the law.  When I say "dirty," I mean immoral.  Trump was heavily invested in the gambling industry in Atlantic City.  Casinos are viciously predatory institutions that promote and prey on greed.  Trump also has the dubious distinction of owning the first casino with a strip club in it.  Profiting from immorality and vice is dirty.  Encouraging sinful behavior for the sake financial gain and then boasting about the money made is what I label "bragging about dirty money."
> 
> If you are interested in reading up on Trump's Atlantic City fiasco from a business side, you can do so here:  http://www.phillymag.com/news/2015/08/16/donald-trump-atlantic-city-empire/
> 
> 2.  As for him bragging about adultery, I will give you a few quotes from the man himself.
> 
> From his book, Think Big - "Oftentimes when I was sleeping with one of the top women in the world I would say to myself, thinking about me as a boy from Queens, "Can you believe what I am getting?"
> 
> From an interview with Esquire - "You know, it doesn't really matter what [the media] write as long as you've got a young and beautiful piece of [expletive]."
> 
> From The Art of the Deal - “If I told the real stories of my experiences with women, often seemingly very happily married and important women, this book would be a guaranteed best-seller.”
> 
> Did I mention that he appeared on the cover of Playboy?  He was fully clothed in a tux, but the model next time him appears wearing only his jacket.  Is that not flaunting immorality?
> 
> 3.  Go to YouTube and search "Donald Trump Swearing" or something to that effect.  You will find plenty of evidence.  I would be banned if I posted the video here.
> 
> 4.  You are correct that many other politicians use inflammatory speech.  Kasich seems to be the only one staying above the fray this go round.  Trump's language has been unusually divisive though.  Trump has taken it to a whole different level. Everyone talks about how Trump has "tapped into the anger" of the American people.  He is stirring it up and using it to his advantage.  As I heard one Trump supporter say, "We are voting with our middle finger."  I am not saying all Trump supporters are angry, but anger has been a hallmark of his campaign.
> 
> 5.  When a man claims he is being audited by the IRS because he is "such a strong Christian," but doesn't feel the need to ask God for forgiveness, he is distorting the message of Christianity.  Forgiveness is at the very heart of the Christian message.  If he doesn't need forgiveness, then he doesn't need a Savior.  How is that Christian?  I don't think he maliciously misrepresents Christianity.  I think he just doesn't know what the real message of Christianity is.  I think there is some serious pandering to "evangelicals" going on, but I don't think he realizes what he is doing.
> 
> 
> I am not trying to sling mud at Trump.  If I am misrepresenting the facts, please correct me.
> 
> It's funny.  I have never been accused of being a Democrat until I started questioning Trump.  I am a lifelong Republican, but the minute I point out some of his flaws somebody always accuses me of being a Democrat.  Unlike Trump, I have never supported Hillary, and I never will.



I asked for links, not hear say. You typing it does not make it so.  You may be right but you have not proved it yet.


----------



## apoint

formula1 said:


> I'm not really liking Trump but I will never vote for a Democrat for reasons that others have mentioned.  I will also not waste a vote on a third party as a protest as that generally always plays in favor of Democrats.
> 
> Cruz and Kasich I will gladly vote for.  Trump will force me to hold my nose but I will do my civic duty to try and stop the liberals and socialists even though I'm not sure it will help.
> 
> But the real truth is just maybe God is in control of it all in the end and that is all that matters.




Agreed.....


----------



## hobbs27

formula1 said:


> I'm not really liking Trump but I will never vote for a Democrat for reasons that others have mentioned.  I will also not waste a vote on a third party as a protest as that generally always plays in favor of Democrats.
> 
> Cruz and Kasich I will gladly vote for.  Trump will force me to hold my nose but I will do my civic duty to try and stop the liberals and socialists even though I'm not sure it will help.
> 
> But the real truth is just maybe God is in control of it all in the end and that is all that matters.



Here is the hard part for me. Does an R in front of a candidates name make him any less liberal than a Democrat? Imagine any of these three close friends running with an R, do they automatically get the hold your nose vote?


----------



## hummerpoo

apoint said:


> I asked for links, not hear say. You typing it does not make it so.  You may be right but you have not proved it yet.





I followed his lead to everything in 1,2, and 3 in less time that it took me to find the above link; 4 and 5 are self explanatory.


----------



## jmharris23

apoint said:


> Your welcome to your point of view even if it came straight from the democrats.
> Show us the facts on the slander of trump you propose.
> #1 Brags about Dirty money..
> #2 Brags about adultery..
> #3 Using the F word..
> #4 So other politicians don't inflame speech.?
> #5 Never ask God for forgiveness is between him and God.
> This same rhetoric comes straight from the mouth of hillery, you should be so proud.
> Now, if your going to mudsling democratic talking points you should at least show proof of your statements.




http://www.epm.org/blog/2016/Mar/21/donald-trump-character


----------



## apoint

jmharris23 said:


> http://www.epm.org/blog/2016/Mar/21/donald-trump-character



First, I voted for Cruz. Im not arguing morals and ethics as much as he looks to be the nominee, and the alternative hitlery is not a choice.
 I agree whole heartedly a moral Godly nominee would be my choice.
 It would have been nice if that link article would have gave mention of who we have had leading the past 8 yrs and more of the same if hitlery wins just to finish the thought process.. 
  If you all think oboma or hitlery is a Christian, God help you.
  There is a very good chance that God himself thinks America is past the tipping point and we will be given over to our enemy's.
  If so , there are no real choices, just 2 bad choices. That said I will never vote for abortion so republican is the only choice. also not voting is not an option.


----------



## apoint

tell sackett said:


> Yes, the decision is the Lord's, but if we don't seek His face, He will give us the King we desire.



We will get the one we deserve.. One last word for everyone.. How is your muzzy president and Good Godly lying republican representatives Been working out for you.? The GOP has turned aginst the people that voted them in... Looks to me its time to drain the swamp and start with new blood.
 I was also once a lost wild man, as most of you were too. God changed me as he did all of you. God can change anyone, even a president. Maybe we need to pray for our elected leaders as we should and quit bickering and pointing fingers.


----------



## gemcgrew

hayseed_theology said:


> Not ignoring you, gemcgrew.  Just don't have time to respond right now.


Don't give it another thought. Focus on the more important things.


----------



## gemcgrew

apoint said:


> We will get the one we deserve.. One last word for everyone.. How is your muzzy president and Good Godly lying republican representatives Been working out for you.? The GOP has turned aginst the people that voted them in... Looks to me its time to drain the swamp and start with new blood.
> I was also once a lost wild man, as most of you were too. God changed me as he did all of you. God can change anyone, even a president. Maybe we need to pray for our elected leaders as we should and quit bickering and pointing fingers.


The new will be just as evil as the old, just as evil as every other person... apart from the grace of God. None of them are against me.


----------



## hayseed_theology

jmharris23 said:


> http://www.epm.org/blog/2016/Mar/21/donald-trump-character



That may be the best article I have read on the topic.  Randy was very clear and thorough.  Thank you for posting!!!  The "God Has Coffee with Donald Trump" article that Randy linked at the end of his article is pure gold.




apoint said:


> I asked for links, not hear say. You typing it does not make it so.  You may be right but you have not proved it yet.



You asked for proof.  I explained my reasoning and gave the evidence for it in a form that was easily falsifiable if incorrect.  I don't have the time or energy to go back and find all the links.  I know that I could not post several of them because they contain foul language from Trump.  I believe the link that I posted and the one that jmharris posted pretty well substantiate the claims I have made.  

After reading the link I posted, watching the video I suggested, and reading the link jmharris posted, do you feel that any of my claims are unsubstantiated?




gemcgrew said:


> You just described the condition of the human heart. You did it from a third party perspective. Who, absent favoritism, has earned your "clean conscience" vote?



We agree on the radical nature of depravity and the depths of sinfulness present in the human heart, not just Trump's but my own as well.  I too am a wretched sinner in need of the grace of Christ.

For me to vote with a "clean conscience," I must believe that the candidate is not a hindrance to the gospel or biblical values, possesses character, and could adequately fulfill the various responsibilities required of the POTUS.  I believe Trump fails on all three accounts.  I will not vote for an unscrupulous man even if I agree with his platform.  I think it would be unwise to vote for a godly man who is unprepared for the job.  I also recognize that for some believers, not voting for the Republican candidate would violate their conscience.  I think Randy Alcorn offers a good discussion of this issue in the article that jmharris posted.


----------



## hayseed_theology

apoint said:


> God changed me as he did all of you. God can change anyone, even a president. Maybe we need to pray for our elected leaders as we should and quit bickering and pointing fingers.



Amen to that.




gemcgrew said:


> Don't give it another thought. Focus on the more important things.



I had given thought to a more lengthy response, but decided it was unnecessary.  You brought up some significant issues that I probably didn't do justice to in my response.


----------



## JB0704

tell sackett said:


> Your vote is your own. I don't ask in a critical manner, but knowing the life he has,and apparently still is, living I can't see how a vote for Trump can match up with Biblical values. Perhaps I'm missing something. I know we're not electing a pastor, but I believe we are to vote our faith as much as possible.



My votes are strictly political, and I do not bring the person into it.  It is cast in the hope to achieve the greatest outcome relevant to the possibilities.  Not the greatest person.  Some wonderful human beings have been terrible politicians.  Jimmy Carter comes to mind, I also think Joe Biden is a good man.  I do not like the politics of either.  Richard Nixon, Watergate aside, was actually a very good president, but not a very good person.  From the democrat side a good argument could be made that Clinton was a good president regardless of his personal flaws.

I guess my point is that people are who they are, but I am not voting for a new best friend, or an elder in the church.  So, the personal flaws are put aside in order to try to get the greatest possible outcome for the office I am voting.

That being said, I will never vote for Trump for political reasons.  Just can't do it.


----------



## formula1

*Re:*



hobbs27 said:


> Here is the hard part for me. Does an R in front of a candidates name make him any less liberal than a Democrat? Imagine any of these three close friends running with an R, do they automatically get the hold your nose vote?



Would not say it's an automatic just yet.  I still have to see how everything plays out.  But everything I've read to this point is Trump would be less liberal generally than Clinton or Sanders but that's about all I can say.  There is still much to see unfold.

To your picture, shaking hands with a liberal doesn't make one a liberal!


----------



## obligated

Ill vote for Trump before a devoted socialist or Clinton that has blood on her hands.Sometimes it takes a hard man to do a hard job!King David was far from being angelic yet God said he loved and favored him.Ill vote for the least attached to the DC cesspool.President Trump sounds good tomy old tired taxpayer ears.


----------



## apoint

formula1 said:


> Would not say it's an automatic just yet.  I still have to see how everything plays out.  But everything I've read to this point is Trump would be less liberal generally than Clinton or Sanders but that's about all I can say.  There is still much to see unfold.
> 
> To your picture, shaking hands with a liberal doesn't make one a liberal!



Thank you Formula for that post. Nice to hear solid reasoning. 
 As said in another post, King David committed many sin's as we have sinned too, yet a great king.
        " The only thing necessary for  the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing"...   Not voting is a vote for hillery....


----------



## hayseed_theology

obligated said:


> King David was far from being angelic yet God said he loved and favored him.



When his sin was exposed, David was broken with godly sorrow, sought forgiveness, and demonstrated genuine repentance.  He did not boast of his sin.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Does our dominion decree from God give us the responsibility  to pick and choose a president? In other words even though God is in control, is it not total control. 
Otherwise why would he give us dominion? I think it does matter who we vote for. We have dominion. We can control our own destiny.

Or can we?


----------



## apoint

hayseed_theology said:


> When his sin was exposed, David was broken with godly sorrow, sought forgiveness, and demonstrated genuine repentance.  He did not boast of his sin.


  Trump has not murdered anyone as David did Uriah.
Trumps life is not over YET. YET you condemn him. Ill remind you, we are all in Gods hands.
 Mathew was a vile speaking tax collector that stole from his people yet Jesus changed him quickly.


----------



## hayseed_theology

apoint said:


> Trump has not murdered anyone as David did Uriah.



Yes, David ordered soldiers to pull back so that Uriah was killed, effectively murdering him.  Don't forget that Trump publicly declared that he would  force American soldiers to murder women and children.  When questioned about forcing soldiers to commit war crimes, he doubled down.  He later changed his tune, but that doesn't excuse a presidential candidate adamantly declaring that he will force our soldiers to kill women and children.




apoint said:


> Trumps life is not over YET. YET you condemn him.



I never suggested that Trump was beyond the grace of God.  The Lord is merciful to whomever he wills.  We are great sinners, but Christ is a greater Savior.  There is no sin that cannot be cleansed by His blood.  As long as a man has breath in his lungs, he has the opportunity to cry out for mercy.




apoint said:


> Ill remind you, we are all in Gods hands.



Thank you for the reminder.  It is a blessed truth that I need to be reminded of every day.  




apoint said:


> Mathew was a vile speaking tax collector that stole from his people yet Jesus changed him quickly.



I've never suggested that God could not transform the man by His grace.



The point of my post was that I don't think that comparing King David to Donald Trump is a good comparison.  

Yes, David sinned egregiously, but when confronted, he admitted his wrong doing and sought repentance.  Trump has publicly expressed that he does not believe he needs to ask God for forgiveness.

Though he stumbled at times, David's life was marked by a zeal for the glory of God as evidenced by the psalms he wrote.  The excerpts I have seen from "The Art of the Deal" hardly resemble the psalms.

Can God by His grace transform Trump?  He certainly can.  But Trump is no King David.


----------



## jmharris23

hayseed_theology said:


> Yes, David ordered soldiers to pull back so that Uriah was killed, effectively murdering him.  Don't forget that Trump publicly declared that he would  force American soldiers to murder women and children.  When questioned about forcing soldiers to commit war crimes, he doubled down.  He later changed his tune, but that doesn't excuse a presidential candidate adamantly declaring that he will force our soldiers to kill women and children.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I never suggested that Trump was beyond the grace of God.  The Lord is merciful to whomever he wills.  We are great sinners, but Christ is a greater Savior.  There is no sin that cannot be cleansed by His blood.  As long as a man has breath in his lungs, he has the opportunity to cry out for mercy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for the reminder.  It is a blessed truth that I need to be reminded of every day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've never suggested that God could not transform the man by His grace.
> 
> 
> 
> The point of my post was that I don't think that comparing King David to Donald Trump is a good comparison.
> 
> Yes, David sinned egregiously, but when confronted, he admitted his wrong doing and sought repentance.  Trump has publicly expressed that he does not believe he needs to ask God for forgiveness.
> 
> Though he stumbled at times, David's life was marked by a zeal for the glory of God as evidenced by the psalms he wrote.  The excerpts I have seen from "The Art of the Deal" hardly resemble the psalms.
> 
> Can God by His grace transform Trump?  He certainly can.  But Trump is no King David.



Don't start getting all faithful to the biblical text and stuff....that's a killjoy


----------



## apoint

hayseed_theology said:


> Yes, David ordered soldiers to pull back so that Uriah was killed, effectively murdering him.  Don't forget that Trump publicly declared that he would  force American soldiers to murder women and children.  When questioned about forcing soldiers to commit war crimes, he doubled down.  He later changed his tune, but that doesn't excuse a presidential candidate adamantly declaring that he will force our soldiers to kill women and children.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I never suggested that Trump was beyond the grace of God.  The Lord is merciful to whomever he wills.  We are great sinners, but Christ is a greater Savior.  There is no sin that cannot be cleansed by His blood.  As long as a man has breath in his lungs, he has the opportunity to cry out for mercy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for the reminder.  It is a blessed truth that I need to be reminded of every day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've never suggested that God could not transform the man by His grace.
> 
> 
> 
> The point of my post was that I don't think that comparing King David to Donald Trump is a good comparison.
> 
> Yes, David sinned egregiously, but when confronted, he admitted his wrong doing and sought repentance.  Trump has publicly expressed that he does not believe he needs to ask God for forgiveness.
> 
> Though he stumbled at times, David's life was marked by a zeal for the glory of God as evidenced by the psalms he wrote.  The excerpts I have seen from "The Art of the Deal" hardly resemble the psalms.
> 
> Can God by His grace transform Trump?  He certainly can.  But Trump is no King David.



Was it not a muslim women who murdered in cold blood in California? How many innocents are killed in any war?
In many wars women and children will kill our soldiers.
 Once again your argument does not hold water. Palestinian's teach their children to hate and murder as soon as they can walk. How many women suicide bombers have there been, too many to count?
 Comparing David and Trump does not work because everyone is an individual.
 As far as our soldiers go, they are going to eliminate anyone pointing a gun at them, the same as I would do, no matter sex or age. I'm glad Trump has the will to do what oboma wont, kill our enemy's. OR,
 We could just sit back and watch some more beheadings.
 Islamic jihad's are sub human murder's. actually, anyone that believes in islam has serious issues. I see it as a cancer on the world.


----------



## hayseed_theology

apoint said:


> Was it not a muslim women who murdered in cold blood in California? How many innocents are killed in any war?
> In many wars women and children will kill our soldiers. Once again your argument does not hold water. Palestinian's teach their children to hate and murder as soon as they can walk. How many women suicide bombers have there been, too many to count?



That is not what Trump is talking about.

Trump said that he would specifically target the families of terrorists.  Not the individuals who acted, but their families because he believes it will send a message.  Not people with a gun in their hand or a bomb strapped to their chest, but their families.  He said we need to kill their children to get back at them. 

A quote from the article I linked - "Asked about his stated position that he would kill the families of terrorists – not as collateral damage in a strike intended to kill the terrorists, not as part of a broadened rules of engagement that would allow soldiers freedom to defend themselves, but merely as a measure of revenge – Trump doubled down."  

He is not talking about a woman shooting innocent people at a Christmas party.  He is not talking about non-combatants who are accidentally killed in widespread bombing.  He is talking about sending soldiers to intentionally kill non-combatant women and children to get revenge and in hopes that it might serve as a deterrent.  That is murder.


----------



## hayseed_theology

jmharris23 said:


> Don't start getting all faithful to the biblical text and stuff....that's a killjoy



 

Sorry. Won't happen again.


----------



## apoint

hayseed_theology said:


> Sorry. Won't happen again.



Looks like you have bought into every liberal-GOP lie told about Trump.  

 
http://www.commdiginews.com/repubhub/on-trump-radical-islam-and-killing-women-and-children-60224/


----------



## hayseed_theology

apoint said:


> Looks like you have bought into every liberal-GOP lie told about Trump.
> 
> 
> http://www.commdiginews.com/repubhub/on-trump-radical-islam-and-killing-women-and-children-60224/



Interesting read.  Thanks for posting.  

However, numerous national security and military experts disagree with the conclusions of that article.  For example, former Republican Senator and ex-Secretary of Defense William Cohen considers it a war crime.

If Trump was correct on killing terrorists families, then why did he back down a few days later?

Furthermore, if killing the families of murders is such a noble and wise deterrent, why not start at home?  Far more Americans are killed by other Americans than by Islamic Jihadists.  If it's such a foolproof and honorable system, it should be put in place in our own country if we really want to save lives, right?


----------



## hummerpoo

apoint said:


> Looks like you have bought into every liberal-GOP lie told about Trump.
> 
> 
> http://www.commdiginews.com/repubhub/on-trump-radical-islam-and-killing-women-and-children-60224/



Either before or after reading the linked article you should google the authors name where you will find lots of even more interesting material; for example:

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/08/west-point-william-bradford/403009/

The Atlantic is probably not (make that "certainly not") the best source of balanced information, but they are too high profile to misquote the "National Security Law Journal" when they apologized for publishing Bradford's writings:


As the incoming Editorial Board, we want to address concerns regarding Mr. Bradford’s contention that some scholars in legal academia could be considered as constituting a fifth column in the war against terror; his interpretation is that those scholars could be targeted as unlawful combatants. The substance of Mr. Bradford’s article cannot fairly be considered apart from the egregious breach of professional decorum that it exhibits. We cannot “unpublish” it, of course, but we can and do acknowledge that the article was not presentable for publication when we published it, and that we therefore repudiate it with sincere apologies to our readers.

The article is titled Trahison des Professeurs: The Critical Law of Armed Conflict Academy as an Islamist Fifth Column. It’s a dense treatise, totaling some 184 pages in length, including 776 footnotes. But the central thrust of the article is a bold claim: A group of U.S. legal scholars is helping ISIS undermine America from within.
Casual readers could be forgiven for thinking the article is poorly thought-out satire. After all, Bradford’s name for these legal scholars is CLOACA, a scientific term for a type of animal orifice. (The term is ostensibly an abbreviation for “counter-law-of-armed-conflict academy;” he wields his backronym with the same sinister tones that James Bond reserved for SPECTRE.)


----------



## Artfuldodger

I wonder how the world would view the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki as it relates to the killing of the families of terrorists? 
True that doing it for revenge would be wrong but what about for a deterrent? Was the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki  considered collateral damage?
Hopefully it wasn't for revenge. I'll bet in 1945 the American public wouldn't have cared even if it was.

If we as a country choose to protect the children and wives of our enemies, it might make us better Christians but not very good warriors. 

Hiroshima and Nagasaki 
At least 200,000 died, many others scarred for life, future generations to this day harmed by radio-logically caused birth defects and other serious health problems.
It did  spare the Japanese people from utter destruction and possibly the US from future destruction.

There has to be a balance though but it appears we as a nation have become too soft when it comes to trying not to destroy our enemies families, temples, and properties.
I realize this is harder when the enemy isn't a nation with defined borders. 

As for as starting in the US, we did that during the War Against Northern Aggression.

I think that terrorism has got to the point that we gotta do something even if it's wrong. Heads are being cut off.


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> ... even if it's wrong.



Try justifying that one with scripture.


----------



## hayseed_theology

Artfuldodger said:


> I wonder how the world would view the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki as it relates to the killing of the families of terrorists?
> True that doing it for revenge would be wrong but what about for a deterrent? Was the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki  considered collateral damage?
> Hopefully it wasn't for revenge. I'll bet in 1945 the American public wouldn't have cared even if it was.
> 
> If we as a country choose to protect the children and wives of our enemies, it might make us better Christians but not very good warriors.
> 
> Hiroshima and Nagasaki
> At least 200,000 died, many others scarred for life, future generations to this day harmed by radio-logically caused birth defects and other serious health problems.
> It did  spare the Japanese people from utter destruction and possibly the US from future destruction.
> 
> There has to be a balance though but it appears we as a nation have become too soft when it comes to trying not to destroy our enemies families, temples, and properties.
> I realize this is harder when the enemy isn't a nation with defined borders.
> 
> As for as starting in the US, we did that during the War Against Northern Aggression.
> 
> I think that terrorism has got to the point that we gotta do something even if it's wrong. Heads are being cut off.



I find it very hard to justify the actions at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  I know it is an ongoing debate, but vaporizing innocent civilians seems out of line with American values.  

This article contained some interesting quotes from Eisenhower, MacArthur, and Hoover.  I'll post this one from Admiral William Leahy, Chief of Staff under FDR and Truman - "My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children."


I recognize that holding ourselves to a higher moral standard than our enemies handicaps us in certain types of warfare.  However, if we resort to terrorist's methods, we are no better than they are.  Becoming barbarians in an effort to wipe out barbarism will not work.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hayseed_theology said:


> I find it very hard to justify the actions at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  I know it is an ongoing debate, but vaporizing innocent civilians seems out of line with American values.
> 
> This article contained some interesting quotes from Eisenhower, MacArthur, and Hoover.  I'll post this one from Admiral William Leahy, Chief of Staff under FDR and Truman - "My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children."
> 
> 
> I recognize that holding ourselves to a higher moral standard than our enemies handicaps us in certain types of warfare.  However, if we resort to terrorist's methods, we are no better than they are.  Becoming barbarians in an effort to wipe out barbarism will not work.



Maybe the WWII bombs taught us not to become barbarians, not just those two nukes but all of the conventional bombs we dropped nightly on Germany in retaliation for the ones they dropped nightly on England. Both sides killing multitudes of innocent women and children.

When it comes to self survival and moral standards, which one takes precedent? Christianity tells us morals, war tells us otherwise. 
Someone mentioned a devout Christian might get too deep into his religion to function correctly as a commander of the armed forces vs a not so religiously deep Christian leader. 
Do we want a" meek and humble, turn the other cheek Christian president" or an "eye for and eye, not so meek and humble Christian president?"

It's an enigma!


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> Try justifying that one with scripture.



I'd go about it like this;                                                          "God please go ahead and call your elect from my enemies. I know that I should love them as myself but they are shooting at me and my family.
You gave me the genetics of survival, flight or fight, and I have no where else to run. I've tried to turn the other cheek but it hasn't worked.
I'm tired and weary but most of all, I'm scared. Especially for my wife and family. I'm about to take matters into my own hands and suffer your judgement as you see fit.
I know that you will have mercy on whom you will have mercy and I can only respect and know that is true.
May God have mercy on what I'm about to do. Some of it ain't gonna look to good on my Heaven application."


----------



## apoint

hummerpoo said:


> Try justifying that one with scripture.


 Very glad you asked that question because the Arabs and Muslims are the direct descendants of this Bible verse.....
1 Samuel 15:3--  NOW go and SMITE Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them NOT; but slay both man and women, infant and suckling, ox and sheep. camel and donkey.

Amalek even then were long time enemys of  Israel... The Muslims and Amalek are the same people and are the long time enemy's of Israel.
Trump may be doing Gods will..   Do I need to say more?


----------



## hayseed_theology

apoint said:


> Very glad you asked that question because the Arabs and Muslims are the direct descendants of this Bible verse.....
> 1 Samuel 15:3--  NOW go and SMITE Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them NOT; but slay both man and women, infant and suckling, ox and sheep. camel and donkey.
> 
> Amalek even then were long time enemys of  Israel... The Muslims are the long time enemy's of Israel.
> Trump may be doing Gods will..   Do I need to say more?



Do all commands given by God to King Saul (and Israel) directly apply to America or just that one?


----------



## apoint

hayseed_theology said:


> Do all commands given by God to King Saul (and Israel) directly apply to America or just that one?


 Gods word is forever, now, then, and the future.......  I will curse them that curse Israel.. AGAIN, Damascus will be lay waste..


----------



## hayseed_theology

apoint said:


> Gods word is forever, now then, and the future.......  I will curse them that curse Israel.. AGAIN, Damascus will be lay waist..



Doesn't matter that Old Testament Israel was under a different covenant/dispensation?


So all the commands of the Old Testament apply directly to America?


----------



## apoint

hayseed_theology said:


> Doesn't matter that Old Testament Israel was under a different covenant/dispensation?
> 
> 
> So all the commands of the Old Testament apply directly to America?



Christians are grafted in to the promises of God, so why do you keep separating the two? The enemy's of Israel are our enemy's


----------



## hayseed_theology

apoint said:


> Christians are grafted in to the promises of God, so why do you keep separating the two? The enemy's of Israel are our enemy's



If we are grafted into the commands of OT Israel, then why don't we follow Leviticus?


----------



## apoint

hayseed_theology said:


> If we are grafted into the commands of OT Israel, then why don't we follow Leviticus?


 Don't change the subject.  The laws were to show us we are sinners. The 10 commandments are still true today.
 The enemy's of Israel are still the enemy's of God.

Again, OLD TESTAMENT, Isaiah 17,  Damascus is destroyed in a day... I might add, Men, Women and Children and beast.

Anyone care to "walk it back" as they say... CRICKETS,  CRICKETS, etc.. Hummerpoo where are you???


----------



## hayseed_theology

By the way, apoint, thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.  We have very different perspectives(as I am sure you have noticed), and your answers help me understand a position different than my own.


----------



## hayseed_theology

apoint said:


> Don't change the subject.  The laws were to show us we are sinners. The 10 commandments are still true today.
> The enemy's of Israel are still the enemy's of God.



You seemed to imply that America was bound by all of the commands in the Old Testament given to Israel.  That's why I was seeking clarification.  So you don't believe we are bound by all the commands in the Old Testament?


----------



## apoint

Amalek even then were long time enemys of  Israel... The Muslims and Amalek are the same people and are the long time enemy's of Israel.
Trump may be doing Gods will..   Do I need to say more?


----------



## apoint

hayseed_theology said:


> You seemed to imply that America was bound by all of the commands in the Old Testament given to Israel.  That's why I was seeking clarification.  So you don't believe we are bound by all the commands in the Old Testament?



So you say.............????????
  You are trying hard to convince yourself?????
  The old testament and the new is just ONE BOOK....;
 Gods word never changes.... Not even a little......
 You keep saying America like that makes a difference to Gods word???...

Amalek even then were long time enemys of  Israel... The Muslims and Amalek are the same people and are the long time enemy's of Israel.
Trump may be doing Gods will..   Do I need to say more?


----------



## hayseed_theology

apoint said:


> Amalek even then were long time enemys of  Israel... The Muslims and Amalek are the same people and are the long time enemy's of Israel.
> Trump may be doing Gods will..   Do I need to say more?



I am sorry.  You are going to have to say more.  I am not sure I follow the Muslims = Amalek line of reasoning.

How can they be the same people if Amalekites are a narrow ethnic group but Muslims are a broad religious group?  It seems like a confusion of categories.


----------



## hayseed_theology

apoint said:


> So you say.............????????
> You are trying hard to convince yourself?????
> The old testament and the new is just ONE BOOK....;
> Gods word never changes.... Not even a little......
> You keep saying America like that makes a difference to Gods word???...



America and Old Testament Isreal seem to be two different groups of people at two different stages in redemptive history.

So you are saying that we should follow the commands in Leviticus since God's word never changes?


----------



## apoint

hayseed_theology said:


> I am sorry.  You are going to have to say more.  I am not sure I follow the Muslims = Amalek line of reasoning.
> 
> How can they be the same people if Amalekites are a narrow ethnic group but Muslims are a broad religious group?  It seems like a confusion of categories.



If your confused then you need a deeper study of the Bible. I have not misspoken, About the difference of the Abrahamic split of Isaac and Ishmael.. Latter being Muslim, Palestinian, Arabs...


----------



## hayseed_theology

apoint said:


> If your confused then you need a deeper study of the Bible. I have not misspoken, About the difference of the Abrahamic split of Isaac and Ishmael.. Latter being Muslim, Palestinian, Arabs...



So should we kill all Arabs or just Muslim ones?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Have y'all ever noticed the god's or our enemies allow our enemies to be more aggressive than our God allows us to be?


----------



## apoint

hayseed_theology said:


> America and Old Testament Isreal seem to be two different groups of people at two different stages in redemptive history.
> 
> America has nothing to do with being Gods people which are timeless in Gods word.
> 
> 
> 
> So you are saying that we should follow the commands in Leviticus since God's word never changes?



  I follow Jesus and dont throw away the OT. Jesus said, I have come to full fill the law not destroy it. Now please lets move on from that.


----------



## apoint

hayseed_theology said:


> So should we kill all Arabs or just Muslim ones?



I report, you decide..


----------



## apoint

Artfuldodger said:


> Have y'all ever noticed the god's or our enemies allow our enemies to be more aggressive than our God allows us to be?



Only in your mind and the politician mind. God is long suffering and when He had enough it will be rough.


----------



## hayseed_theology

apoint said:


> I follow Jesus and dont throw away the OT. Jesus said, I have come to full fill the law not destroy it. Now please lets move on from that.



Sorry to come back to it but I was just trying to understand your hermeneutical method for determining the relationship that new covenant believers have with the old covenant commandments.


----------



## hayseed_theology

apoint said:


> I report, you decide..



Aww, you can't leave me hanging!!!  We've come so far.  Last question and I will leave you alone.  Thanks for being such a good sport.

Obviously, you have thought through the Muslim/Arab/Amalekite thing pretty thoroughly.  Does 1 Sam 15:3 require us to kill all Arabs, all Muslims, or just all Muslim Arabs?


----------



## apoint

hayseed_theology said:


> Sorry to come back to it but I was just trying to understand your hermeneutical method for determining the relationship that new covenant believers have with the old covenant commandments.



 The Bible explains it's self pretty well as did Jesus. Again, I have come to full fill the O.T. not destroy it. Did you thro away the 10 commandments?


----------



## apoint

hayseed_theology said:


> Aww, you can't leave me hanging!!!  We've come so far.  Last question and I will leave you alone.  Thanks for being such a good sport.
> 
> Obviously, you have thought through the Muslim/Arab/Amalekite thing pretty thoroughly.  Does 1 Sam 15:3 require us to kill all Arabs, all Muslims, or just all Muslim Arabs?



 You are also a good fellow.  We have the same enemy's as Israel.. Kill them..


----------



## hummerpoo

apoint said:


> Very glad you asked that question because the Arabs and Muslims are the direct descendants of this Bible verse.....
> 1 Samuel 15:3--  NOW go and SMITE Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them NOT; but slay both man and women, infant and suckling, ox and sheep. camel and donkey.
> 
> Amalek even then were long time enemys of  Israel... The Muslims and Amalek are the same people and are the long time enemy's of Israel.
> Trump may be doing Gods will..   Do I need to say more?





apoint said:


> ... CRICKETS,  CRICKETS, etc.. Hummerpoo where are you???



No, no; not Cricket ... Footy ... AFL, Australian Football League ... Footy ... I've been watching Footy, It's the opening weekend of the Premiership Season you know.  Being on Easter Weekend seriously pushes me for time; challenges my priorities; Politics that are all cross-wired with religion doesn't make the top of the schedule easily when Easter and Footy are in the competition.

Didn't really miss anything here though.  That idea about Amalek (ethnic Arabs) and a religion that came along a couple of millennia later have anything to do with my statement about "doing something even if its wrong" is a real stretch.  When I first read it my reaction was, "OUCH!!, I hope he has some Flexeril and Naproxen";  those two and a little rest on the front end can really shorten the time those strains and sprains hang on.

Anyway, I've got to get back to the Kangaroos and the Crows.  I'm watching it delayed, but I didn't look to see who won, and it's a real "ripper" of a game.  Good luck with you injury.


----------



## hayseed_theology

apoint said:


> The Bible explains it's self pretty well as did Jesus. Again, I have come to full fill the O.T. not destroy it. Did you thro away the 10 commandments?



No, I wouldn't throw away the 10 commandments, but I do not believe they are binding on new covenant believers the same way that they were on OT Israelites.  The Decalogue serves as the preamble to the Mosaic covenant following the form of a suzerain-vassal treaty.  You cannot divorce the 10 commandments from their literary context.  They are the introduction to the old covenant. The 10 Commandments should not be divorced from the rest of the old covenant as they so often are. 

Hebrews 8 says that Christ is a mediator of a better covenant (the new covenant) and has made the old covenant obsolete.  Because we are not under the old covenant, I do not see the 10 commandments as binding upon Christians.  For example, I worship on the Lord's Day.  I set aside time for rest, but I do not practice the old covenant Sabbath.  I do not know any fellow baptists that practice the Sabbath as revealed in the old covenant.  It happens to be the only commandment that is not repeated and reinforced in the NT.  The writer of Hebrews (in ch. 4) uses the Sabbath commandment as typological of the Sabbath rest found in the finished work of Jesus Christ and secured for all who are in Him.

With that said, the 10 commandments are not arbitrary rules.  They are a revelation of God's character.  God's character has not changed.  The breaking of the marriage covenant through adultery is still wrong.  The unjust taking of a life is still an offense against our Creator.  Worshiping anything other than God alone is sin.

I agree that the law was given to "increase trespass" (Romans 5:20) to show our need for a Savior.  Ultimately, the Decalogue and the rest of the Mosaic covenant were given to point us to Christ (Luke 24:27) and reveal the character of God.  As you pointed out, Christ has fulfilled the law for us, and we are now under a better covenant founded on better promises (Hebrews 8 again).

Do I throw away the 10 commandments?  No, but they must be understood within their covenantal (or dispensational) context.



apoint said:


> We have the same enemy's as Israel.. Kill them..



I strongly disagree, but I appreciate you taking the time to explain your position.


----------



## apoint

hummerpoo said:


> Try justifying that one with scripture.



Ho Humer, Here is your quote. You wanted justification of killing women, children in the Bible. I gave it to you and you blew it off... Want another one? The great flood..
 Now go back to the footy or whatever. Also. Easter is not Passover,, when Christ died. Fake Holy days are, Good Friday and Easter.  Just sayin.


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## apoint

hayseed_theology said:


> No, I wouldn't throw away the 10 commandments, but I do not believe they are binding on new covenant believers the same way that they were on OT Israelites.  The Decalogue serves as the preamble to the Mosaic covenant following the form of a suzerain-vassal treaty.  You cannot divorce the 10 commandments from their literary context.  They are the introduction to the old covenant. The 10 Commandments should not be divorced from the rest of the old covenant as they so often are.
> 
> Hebrews 8 says that Christ is a mediator of a better covenant (the new covenant) and has made the old covenant obsolete.  Because we are not under the old covenant, I do not see the 10 commandments as binding upon Christians.  For example, I worship on the Lord's Day.  I set aside time for rest, but I do not practice the old covenant Sabbath.  I do not know any fellow baptists that practice the Sabbath as revealed in the old covenant.  It happens to be the only commandment that is not repeated and reinforced in the NT.  The writer of Hebrews (in ch. 4) uses the Sabbath commandment as typological of the Sabbath rest found in the finished work of Jesus Christ and secured for all who are in Him.
> 
> With that said, the 10 commandments are not arbitrary rules.  They are a revelation of God's character.  God's character has not changed.  The breaking of the marriage covenant through adultery is still wrong.  The unjust taking of a life is still an offense against our Creator.  Worshiping anything other than God alone is sin.
> 
> I agree that the law was given to "increase trespass" (Romans 5:20) to show our need for a Savior.  Ultimately, the Decalogue and the rest of the Mosaic covenant were given to point us to Christ (Luke 24:27) and reveal the character of God.  As you pointed out, Christ has fulfilled the law for us, and we are now under a better covenant founded on better promises (Hebrews 8 again).
> 
> Do I throw away the 10 commandments?  No, but they must be understood within their covenantal (or dispensational) context.
> 
> 
> 
> I strongly disagree, but I appreciate you taking the time to explain your position.


 The Palestinians are the Biblical Philistines.. Can you say Muslims. The Quran teaches to kill all Jews.
The 10 commandments are not changeable as you say Sunday is the day of worship.. Or maybe you can give me a verse where its been changed to Sunday.

Also you can strongly disagree on anything in the Bible but God wrote it, take it up with him...

Also, the great flood killed women, children, and beast on the grandest scale of all.  Hello President Trump, God's in control.


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## apoint

Hayseed,
 You disagree that Israel enemy's are not our enemy's.

 I strongly disagree with you disagreeing.


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## hummerpoo

apoint said:


> Ho Humer, Here is your quote. You wanted justification of killing women, children in the Bible. I gave it to you and you blew it off... Want another one? The great flood..
> Now go back to the footy or whatever. Also. Easter is not Passover,, when Christ died. Fake Holy days are, Good Friday and Easter.  Just sayin.



How can you misunderstand when I clearly present a redacted quote which identifies a single thought from a multi subject post?  Dumb question, right; you obviously have.

Thanks, I will, go back to footy that is...


----------



## hobbs27

Israel is just a Democracy that we as the USA recognized as a state in 1948, against the wishes of our Generals. 

Looking back the Generals were probably right, not only has it cost us billions maybe trillions of dollars, but it also caused Zionism to flourish in western Christianity, under the guise of dispensationalism.


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## apoint

hobbs27 said:


> Israel is just a Democracy that we as the USA recognized as a state in 1948, against the wishes of our Generals.
> 
> Looking back the Generals were probably right, not only has it cost us billions maybe trillions of dollars, but it also caused Zionism to flourish in western Christianity, under the guise of dispensationalism.



Oh my Mr. Hobbs, So Our guberment and generals know better than God Almighty..??
 Where do you think Christianity comes from?
 Please, Do not put your faith in man, but God. Zion is a good thing and forever Gods. Also, please get yourself a new preacher..


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## apoint

hayseed_theology said:


> You seemed to imply that America was bound by all of the commands in the Old Testament given to Israel.  That's why I was seeking clarification.  So you don't believe we are bound by all the commands in the Old Testament?


No, I said America is not the issue. Only Gods people are the issue. Jesus said," If you love me keep my commandments".. The commandments were never thrown away, or changed.. If your talking animal sacrifice no we don't do this anymore, Jesus is the Last sacrifice.
 There is no old and new testament, it is just one book. The "O.T." points to Jesus.  The Catholics separated the book into 2 parts, old and new.


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## Artfuldodger

The natural descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob constitute Israel. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.

I'm just not sure the people living in the settlement in present Israel are descendants of Abraham. Those people moved their from the US, Britain, and other countries when the state of Israel was established. 
They may not be any more of a descendant than I am. Due to interbreeding of the Remnant Jews moving into Europe, I may be a descendant of Abraham.

If not I'm grafted in so it doesn't matter.


----------



## apoint

Artfuldodger said:


> The natural descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jaco constitute Israel. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.
> 
> I'm just not sure the people living in the settlement in present Israel are descendants of Abraham. Those people moved their from the US, Britain, and other countries when the state of Israel was established.
> They may not be any more of a descendant than I am. Due to interbreeding of the Remnant Jews moving into Europe, I may be a descendant of Abraham.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> The only truth in your statement is in red. Before 1948 Israel was mostly Jordan-Palestinian-Muslim. Gods people hear His voice and keep His commandments. All other religions are not Gods people and would be as witchcraft. Hence the Muslim religion. Does the Bible have allah or mohamad in it? No. In ancient Jewish writings, allah is satan wrote backwards.. allah is the ancient worshiped moon god.
> Other than the Jews.. The ancient religion in that area was of many gods. they had sex on their alters and then sacrificed the babys on the alter. Great bunch of folks right? This is why God said kill them all.. They worshiped satan as do the muslim religion does today, they are deceived.. That's why to leave the muslim religion is death. It is a religion of death. Myrter is the only sure way to heaven and then you get sex with 72 virgins and the women get a man that never goes weak.. Yes it is as crazy as it sounds, only satan would condone this .. Let us never forget that satan is behind all evil and deception and war. He goes around like a lion to devour.. Jesus told peter, "Satan will sift you like wheat"..


----------



## Artfuldodger

apoint said:


> Artfuldodger said:
> 
> 
> 
> The natural descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jaco constitute Israel. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.
> 
> I'm just not sure the people living in the settlement in present Israel are descendants of Abraham. Those people moved their from the US, Britain, and other countries when the state of Israel was established.
> They may not be any more of a descendant than I am. Due to interbreeding of the Remnant Jews moving into Europe, I may be a descendant of Abraham.
> 
> 
> 
> The only truth in your statement is in red. Before 1948 Israel was mostly Jordan-Palestinian-Muslim. Gods people hear His voice and keep His commandments. All other religions are not Gods people and would be as witchcraft. Hence the Muslim religion. Does the Bible have allah or mohamad in it? No. In ancient Jewish writings, allah is satan wrote backwards.. allah is the ancient worshiped moon god.
> Other than the Jews.. The ancient religion in that area was of many gods. they had sex on their alters and then sacrificed the babys on the alter. Great bunch of folks right? This is why God said kill them all.. They worshiped satan as do the muslim religion does today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do see Christianity's connection to the Jewish religion. I'm pro-Zion.
Click to expand...


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## apoint

Artfuldodger said:


> apoint said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do see Christianity's connection to the Jewish religion. I'm pro-Zion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you brother. I would fight and die for Israel because of God.
Click to expand...


----------



## Artfuldodger

apoint said:


> Artfuldodger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you brother. I would fight and die for Israel because of God.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This was Paul's answer to the crowd as to why God chose Israel;
> 
> Romans 9:15
> 15For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Click to expand...


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## hobbs27

apoint said:


> Oh my Mr. Hobbs, So Our guberment and generals know better than God Almighty..??
> Where do you think Christianity comes from?
> Please, Do not put your faith in man, but God. Zion is a good thing and forever Gods. Also, please get yourself a new preacher..



My faith is in God. Jews are no more in God's favor than Muslims, Hindus , or any other non believer in Jesus Christ.

You say, " do not put your faith in man" then say " get yourself a new preacher" 

 Interesting.


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## apoint

hobbs27 said:


> My faith is in God. Jews are no more in God's favor than Muslims, Hindus , or any other non believer in Jesus Christ.
> You say, " do not put your faith in man" then say " get yourself a new preacher"
> 
> Interesting.


  Yes both, No faith in man and you need a new teacher. You quoted our guberment and generals.. Not me.. I quote the Bible..
What I put in red. You might want to tell God who he loves.
 God,  "I will bless those that bless you and curse those that curse you". God is talking about Israel and the descendants of Abraham that are as many as the stars and grains of sand.. Sounds like a forever love affair to me.
 This was said way before Jesus arrived.  HELLO.?
Old testament Jews don't practice witchcraft as the Muslims and other religion  do. HELLO.?


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## hobbs27

Galations 3:16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


----------



## apoint

hobbs27 said:


> Galations 3:16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.



Thanks for making my point. Read the 2 verses before..
14, that the blessings of Abraham may come to the gentiles through Jesus...  Not taken from the Jews...More replacement theology................

15, no man taketh away or addeth thereto.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Galations 3:16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.



Romans 9:13
Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
 14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!

You don't see this as God electing Israel through the bloodline of Jacob?
That Paul knew people would see this as God showing favoritism to the Jews and set them straight by saying God can have mercy on whom he will have mercy?

How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!


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## hobbs27

apoint said:


> Thanks for making my point. Read the 2 verses before..
> 14, that the blessings of Abraham may come to the gentiles through Jesus...  Not taken from the Jews...More replacement theology................
> 
> 15, no man taketh away or addeth thereto.



Peter & Paul along with the men of Galilee on the day of Pentecost that accepted Christ were the true Jews of the true Israel. Christianity is the continuation of true religion not a replacement.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 9:13
> Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
> 14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
> 
> You don't see this as God electing Israel through the bloodline of Jacob?
> That Paul knew people would see this as God showing favoritism to the Jews and set them straight by saying God can have mercy on whom he will have mercy?
> 
> How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!



No, I don't.


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## apoint

hobbs27 said:


> Peter & Paul along with the men of Galilee on the day of Pentecost that accepted Christ were the true Jews of the true Israel. Christianity is the continuation of true religion not a replacement.



OH KAY DOE KAY.. Patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob. How about Saraha, Rebecca, Leah, David, Daniel, Joseph was not a Jew? Not Moses or Joshua,  not even John the Baptist?
   Hang around Hobbs, we might get you in to heaven yet, if we can pry you away from replacement theology..


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## hayseed_theology

apoint said:


> The 10 commandments are not changeable as you say Sunday is the day of worship.. Or maybe you can give me a verse where its been changed to Sunday.
> 
> Also you can strongly disagree on anything in the Bible but God wrote it, take it up with him...
> 
> Also, the great flood killed women, children, and beast on the grandest scale of all.  Hello President Trump, God's in control.



Just following the example of the early church gathering on the first day of the week.  Acts 20:7. 1 Cor. 16:2.

Sabbath command is more concerned about rest than worship.  Command demands that you work 6 days, not 5 as is common in America.  I observe a regular time of rest, but it's not normally Saturday.

Come on, man.  Don't play the disagreeing with God game with me.  You and I are both trying to be faithful to the text.  I disagree with your interpretation and application of the word of God, not His Word.

Yes, God killed many in the great flood.  Despite the impression he tries to create sometimes, Trump is not God.  




apoint said:


> Hayseed,
> You disagree that Israel enemy's are not our enemy's.
> 
> I strongly disagree with you disagreeing.



I think we should agree to strongly disagree.




apoint said:


> No, I said America is not the issue. Only Gods people are the issue. Jesus said," If you love me keep my commandments".. The commandments were never thrown away, or changed.. If your talking animal sacrifice no we don't do this anymore, Jesus is the Last sacrifice.
> There is no old and new testament, it is just one book. The "O.T." points to Jesus.  The Catholics separated the book into 2 parts, old and new.



So we don't follow commands about animal sacrifices.  What about eating shellfish?




hobbs27 said:


> Galations 3:16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.



Exactly, Christ is the seed.  He is the the inheritor of the promises.



Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 9:13
> Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
> 14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
> 
> You don't see this as God electing Israel through the bloodline of Jacob?
> That Paul knew people would see this as God showing favoritism to the Jews and set them straight by saying God can have mercy on whom he will have mercy?
> 
> How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!



In that particular passage, I believe Paul is explaining why individual Jews have rejected the Messiah - because they are not chosen.  The election he is discussing is not corporate, but individual.  



apoint said:


> OH KAY DOE KAY.. Patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob. How about Saraha, Rebecca, Leah, was not a Jew? Not Moses or Joshua,  not even John the Baptist?
> Hang around Hobbs, we might get you in to heaven yet, if we can pry you away from replacement theology..



That's not what Hobbs was saying at all.

Apoint, I am disappointed that you don't have enough respect for the other contributors on this board to drop the inaccurate "replacement theology" jab.


----------



## apoint

Never know, Even Trump could be Jewish and directed to Gods destiny.


----------



## apoint

hayseed_theology said:


> Just following the example of the early church gathering on the first day of the week.  Acts 20:7. 1 Cor. 16:2.
> 
> Sabbath command is more concerned about rest than worship.  Command demands that you work 6 days, not 5 as is common in America.  I observe a regular time of rest, but it's not normally Saturday.
> 
> Come on, man.  Don't play the disagreeing with God game with me.  You and I are both trying to be faithful to the text.  I disagree with your interpretation and application of the word of God, not His Word.
> 
> Yes, God killed many in the great flood.  Despite the impression he tries to create sometimes, Trump is not God.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think we should agree to strongly disagree.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So we don't follow commands about animal sacrifices.  What about eating shellfish?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly, Christ is the seed.  He is the the inheritor of the promises.
> 
> 
> 
> In that particular passage, I believe Paul is explaining why individual Jews have rejected the Messiah - because they are not chosen.  The election he is discussing is not corporate, but individual.
> 
> 
> 
> That's not what Hobbs was saying at all.
> 
> Apoint, I am disappointed that you don't have enough respect for the other contributors on this board to drop the inaccurate "replacement theology" jab.



I noticed you don't like the replacement theology statement. Wrong is wrong, cant change wrong. maybe you would like it better if I said wrong theology? means the same thing.  Call it like it is,  Truth, Kind of salt in the wound.
 Shell fish, cloven hoof, is for your own good. Unhealthy..
Sabbath was never changed, not even for your rest.......... Gather on the 1st day of the week all you like. The command is 7th day is Saturday Sabbath. God said don't eat of the tree is what got us in this mess. Obeying God from Genesis on is keeping His Commands. Just to be clear, Replacement theology is when the Church takes the place of Israel.


----------



## hayseed_theology

apoint said:


> I noticed you don't like the replacement theology statement. Wrong is wrong, cant change wrong. maybe you would like it better if I said wrong theology? means the same thing.  Call it like it is,  Truth, Kind of salt in the wound.
> 
> Shell fish, cloven hoof, is for your own good. Unhealthy..
> Sabbath was never changed, not even for your rest..........



The term is inaccurate.  Hobbs just said he does not believe the church replaced Israel. It's not a salt in the would thing.  It's just disrespectful.  I just can't imagine why a brother in Christ would intentionally be disrespectful.  I'll leave it there, because we have already been rounds over that term.


So you execute people for picking up sticks on the Sabbath?

You follow all the dietary laws? No cheeseburger for you?

You don't wear fabric woven from two different kinds of fiber?


----------



## apoint

hayseed_theology said:


> The term is inaccurate.  Hobbs just said he does not believe the church replaced Israel. It's not a salt in the would thing.  It's just disrespectful.  I just can't imagine why a brother in Christ would intentionally be disrespectful.  I'll leave it there, because we have already been rounds over that term.
> 
> 
> So you execute people for picking up sticks on the Sabbath?
> 
> You follow all the dietary laws? No cheeseburger for you?
> 
> You don't wear fabric woven from two different kinds of fiber?



Hobbs quote,"Jews are no more in God's favor than Muslims, Hindus , or any other non believer in Jesus Christ". "Wrong Theology" not biblical.

I made no claim to your accusations below.

Picking up sticks on Sabbath.. not in the Bible...
Dietary laws were for the good of the people...Eat possum I don't care.
 2 fabrics are not in the bible...
 What other ridiculous stuff you got.. Mr Hayseed?


----------



## Artfuldodger

He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus.

no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established,

The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his descendant which is one, Jesus.

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made.

My words;
"Were the promises only spoken to Abraham and Jesus or were the promises only "made" for Abraham and Jesus?
Are we really suppose to go back and consider every promise made to Abraham's descendants was only a promise to Jesus?"

The LORD appeared to Abram and said, "To your offspring I will give this land." 

I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants

and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed,

to Abraham and his descendants forever, 

And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, 'Through your offspring

It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring 

Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring

Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they Abraham's descendants? So am I.

My words;
"Am I to assume Jesus is the only seed of Abraham?"


----------



## hayseed_theology

apoint said:


> Hobbs quote,"Jews are no more in God's favor than Muslims, Hindus , or any other non believer in Jesus Christ". "Wrong Theology" not biblical.



Yeah, I wouldn't expect you to agree with that one.




apoint said:


> I made no claim to your accusations below.
> 
> Picking up sticks on Sabbath.. not in the Bible...
> Dietary laws were for the good of the people...Eat possum I don't care.
> 2 fabrics are not in the bible...
> What other ridiculous stuff you got..



Numbers 15:32-36 - The Israelites execute a man for gathering sticks on the Sabbath "as the LORD commanded."

So you don't follow the dietary laws?  But they are pretty clear cut commands, aren't they?  From what I've gathered from your previous statements, wouldn't that be disobedience?

Leviticus 19:19 "nor shall you wear a garment of cloth made of two kinds of material."


I am getting confused.  Are we supposed to keep the commands or not?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Galatians 3:14
He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

So if I'm reading this right, none of Abraham's seeds received any blessings. The promise,blessing, covenant was only for Abraham and his one seed, which is Christ.
Oh and the Gentiles. Through Christ Jesus, God has blessed the Gentiles with the same blessing he promised to Abraham and none of his seeds.
None of Abraham's seed received anything, it was just for the Gentiles. Because Abraham only had one seed, which is Jesus.


----------



## apoint

---------------


----------



## apoint

hayseed_theology said:


> Yeah, I wouldn't expect you to agree with that one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Numbers 15:32-36 - The Israelites execute a man for gathering sticks on the Sabbath "as the LORD commanded."
> 
> So you don't follow the dietary laws?  But they are pretty clear cut commands, aren't they?  From what I've gathered from your previous statements, wouldn't that be disobedience?
> 
> Leviticus 19:19 "nor shall you wear a garment of cloth made of two kinds of material."
> 
> 
> I am getting confused.  Are we supposed to keep the commands or not?


 
I thought that was Rabbinical law. You cant keep all the laws in the Bible, that's why Jesus said he is the fulfillment of the law and not here to destroy it.
 We are not under the law but we are under grace and we follow Jesus who is the fulfillment of the law.
 Jesus is the living Word, and we try to keep His  10 Commandments.
 You try hard to get tied up in semantics.


----------



## hobbs27

apoint said:


> OH KAY DOE KAY.. Patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob. How about Saraha, Rebecca, Leah, David, Daniel, Joseph was not a Jew? Not Moses or Joshua,  not even John the Baptist?
> Hang around Hobbs, we might get you in to heaven yet, if we can pry you away from replacement theology..



Funny,I claim Jesus Christ as my personal Savior , I thought He was the giver of eternal life.


----------

