# The affect of Atheism on young people



## Thanatos (Aug 19, 2013)

I understand that people who are mature and have life experiences that have swayed them away from belief in God is prevalent growing in this country.  Some of these men and women are fine human beings who are great givers and thinkers in our society. I hope that one day they will see the gift of grace and acknowledge God. I know God can save anyone at any time. 
What I've been worrying about lately is when immature adolescents take on the belief of nothing. When they lack empathy and do not have any sort of morals or ethics to fall back on some very disturbing events will happen and IMO they will continue to increase as our country's faith in God continues to falter. Take this story I just read about:

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/9583091/baseball-player-killed-kids-were-bored

I know some of you guys who are atheist are raising kids. How do you teach your children to love, respect, and have hope in this world? What are the reasons you give them why it is important? I am truly interested in your thoughts on this.


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## bullethead (Aug 19, 2013)

Thanatos you are giving another assertion that godless people have no morals, empathy or ethics. It has been done to death and resurrected so many times you guys should worship these repeat threads instead of Jesus.
It ALL has been covered numerous times.


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## Thanatos (Aug 19, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Thanatos you are giving another assertion that godless people have no morals, empathy or ethics. It has been done to death and resurrected so many times you guys should worship these repeat threads instead of Jesus.
> It ALL has been covered numerous times.



Did you not read this????????

"I understand that people who are mature and have life experiences that have swayed them away from belief in God is prevalent growing in this country.  Some of these men and women are fine human beings who are great givers and thinkers in our society."

In this statement I meant to give you that exactly. I know you do have morals and ethics and a lot of times they are superior to the religious.


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## swampstalker24 (Aug 19, 2013)

I'm more worried about children who are indoctrinated from birth and are told that they are destined to burn if they don't worship god.  A truly honorable person needs no threat of death and - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -ation in order to do the right thing and live a righteous life.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 19, 2013)

My 10 year old grand son was in the 4th grade last year.  He's the grandson of a Christian Gospel preacher(me).  He and his family go to church where I serve.  One of his very good friends at school is not only the child of atheists, but this young fellow gets himself into lots of arguments with classmates over his atheist understandings.
On the playground, if he hears one kid ask another kid to go to youth devotion this night, this young fellow will 'help them out' by letting them know that there is no God.  Then the arguing begins.
School principal even got involved.  Remember, these are 4th graders.

Final word from the principal to the kids was to stay out of the Christianity versus atheism argument.
Stay out of other people's conversations.

I think they're all friends again.


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## JB0704 (Aug 19, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Thanatos you are giving another assertion that godless people have no morals, empathy or ethics. It has been done to death and resurrected so many times you guys should worship these repeat threads instead of Jesus.
> It ALL has been covered numerous times.



Bullet, I think you missed the focus of the thread.  I can't speak for Thanatos, but I thought the same thing you did until I got to this:



			
				Thanatos said:
			
		

> How do you teach your children to love, respect, and have hope in this world? What are the reasons you give them why it is important? I am truly interested in your thoughts on this.



Not sure if there was a point or a motive, but if you take him at his word, this could be an interesting thread.


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## JB0704 (Aug 19, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Final word from the principal to the kids was to stay out of the Christianity versus atheism argument.



Religion, politics, and the great pumpkin.

I don't remember any such conversations when I was a kid.  Everybody claimed to be Christian.  Very few tried to live like one


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## bullethead (Aug 19, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Bullet, I think you missed the focus of the thread.  I can't speak for Thanatos, but I thought the same thing you did until I got to this:
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure if there was a point or a motive, but if you take him at his word, this could be an interesting thread.



You and I had that very discussion in a previous thread.


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## drippin' rock (Aug 19, 2013)

Worship God with childlike wonder. Why is it so easy for a child to embrace the idea of God?  

Because they don't know anything different. Because anything can be made "fact" if it is repeated long enough.  Because they have not experienced enough of the outside world to question anything yet. 

This point gets ignored here often. Kids grow up believing whatever they are born into.


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## bullethead (Aug 19, 2013)

Thanatos said:


> Did you not read this????????
> 
> "I understand that people who are mature and have life experiences that have swayed them away from belief in God is prevalent growing in this country.  Some of these men and women are fine human beings who are great givers and thinkers in our society."
> 
> In this statement I meant to give you that exactly. I know you do have morals and ethics and a lot of times they are superior to the religious.



It was this that I was responding to.
"I know some of you guys who are atheist are raising kids. How do you teach your children to love, respect, and have hope in this world? What are the reasons you give them why it is important? I am truly interested in your thoughts on this." 

And this:
"What I've been worrying about lately is when immature adolescents take on the belief of nothing. When they lack empathy and do not have any sort of morals or ethics to fall back on some very disturbing events will happen and IMO they will continue to increase as our country's faith in God continues to falter"

I'd worry more about the people that seem to think they have morals, ethics, and empathy because they were given to them by a supreme being yet act no different than everyone else.


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## bullethead (Aug 19, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> My 10 year old grand son was in the 4th grade last year.  He's the grandson of a Christian Gospel preacher(me).  He and his family go to church where I serve.  One of his very good friends at school is not only the child of atheists, but this young fellow gets himself into lots of arguments with classmates over his atheist understandings.
> On the playground, if he hears one kid ask another kid to go to youth devotion this night, this young fellow will 'help them out' by letting them know that there is no God.  Then the arguing begins.
> School principal even got involved.  Remember, these are 4th graders.
> 
> ...



Those darn atheist kids are always starting something.


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## Dr. Strangelove (Aug 19, 2013)

Ronnie T said:
			
		

> Final word from the principal to the kids was to stay out of the Christianity versus atheism argument.
> Stay out of other people's conversations.



Final word from the principal to the kids should have been to stay out of religious conversations altogether.  

If he's willing to allow religious conversation, he has to allow it all.  Even if, Great Cesar's Ghost!, it's not to his liking.  

Boo on the principal.


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## WaltL1 (Aug 20, 2013)

I know this doesn't answer the question but it baffles me that this question would even need to be asked. If a parent cant teach love, respect and hope without a "God" as a teaching aide they probably shouldn't be parents.
By the way that article made no mention of these kids beliefs or lack of so not real sure how the connection is being made to atheism or a faltering belief in "God". The odds are actually in favor that they do have some sort of religious background either themselves or their parents who taught them.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 20, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Those darn atheist kids are always starting something.



It was probably the kids' parent that thought him to stick his nose into a conversation that didn't include him.
He was only blabbing his mouth where he should have kept it shut because he's probably accustomed to hearing that stuff from his parents.

He spend a lot of time at my house.  No problems here.  If and when he objects to our praying before a meal I'll ask him to go outside until we're through.

But, he'll most likely be a Christian before he's 15, then his parents.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 20, 2013)

Dr. Strangelove said:


> Final word from the principal to the kids should have been to stay out of religious conversations altogether.
> 
> If he's willing to allow religious conversation, he has to allow it all.  Even if, Great Cesar's Ghost!, it's not to his liking.
> 
> Boo on the principal.



Boo??????   Listen, let me say it again.

The principal didn't limit anyone's conversation subject matter.
They can talk about their God and about atheism, but they cannot barge into someone else's conversation.

In other words, neither can bully the other.  

Now I know that's offensive to an atheist, but it seems to have worked and they are all getting along.  Something else an atheist parent might not like!


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## WaltL1 (Aug 20, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Boo?????? In other words, neither can bully the other.
> 
> Now I know that's offensive to an atheist, but it seems to have worked and they are all getting along.  Something else an atheist parent might not like!


An atheist doesn't believe in deities not kids getting along. Where do you guys come up with this nonsense?


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## Dr. Strangelove (Aug 20, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Boo??????   Listen, let me say it again.
> 
> The principal didn't limit anyone's conversation subject matter.
> They can talk about their God and about atheism, but they cannot barge into someone else's conversation.
> ...




Why would that be offensive to me? It's normally the Christians trying to indoctrinate folks, as you posted earlier, even with a little laugh face:



> But, he'll most likely be a Christian before he's 15, then his parents.



What's good for the goose is good for the gander brother, if the one kid can ask another to church, the other can tell him why it's a fools errand.


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## Thanatos (Aug 20, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> I know this doesn't answer the question but it baffles me that this question would even need to be asked. If a parent cant teach love, respect and hope without a "God" as a teaching aide they probably shouldn't be parents.
> By the way that article made no mention of these kids beliefs or lack of so not real sure how the connection is being made to atheism or a faltering belief in "God". The odds are actually in favor that they do have some sort of religious background either themselves or their parents who taught them.



As JBO pointed out earlier...I wanted to know WHY you told them to care. It is a kids favorite word. Why? 

Being an adult you have the benefit of maturation and can reason out why caring, loving, and being empathetic is a good thing for the human race as whole even though their really is no point after death and there is no "spiritual" accountability during their life. What I want to know is how an immature child handles this thought process. I truly want to know. This is not a hit piece on how Atheist have no morals and ethics. As I stated before I know they do and at times higher than the religious.


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## Thanatos (Aug 20, 2013)

swampstalker24 said:


> I'm more worried about children who are indoctrinated from birth and are told that they are destined to burn if they don't worship god.  A truly honorable person needs no threat of death and - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -ation in order to do the right thing and live a righteous life.



O! Right on man! It really freaks me out when parents teach their kid to be humble because they are insignificant to the God that created heavens and earth. It really bothers me when these parents teach their kids that no matter what skin color, social economic background, or no matter how physically different another person is from them they are all brothers and sisters in Christ and need to be treated with respect, but most of all love and humility. Jeez! What are we going to do with these people and their fairy tale, God fearing beliefs...


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## WaltL1 (Aug 20, 2013)

Thanatos said:


> As JBO pointed out earlier...I wanted to know WHY you told them to care. It is a kids favorite word. Why?
> 
> Being an adult you have the benefit of maturation and can reason out why caring, loving, and being empathetic is a good thing for the human race as whole even though their really is no point after death and there is no "spiritual" accountability during their life. What I want to know is how an immature child handles this thought process. I truly want to know. This is not a hit piece on how Atheist have no morals and ethics. As I stated before I know they do and at times higher than the religious.


You actually answered the reason WHY yourself. Because its a good thing for the human race as a whole. And there is a point after death. So that legacy you have left behind also acts in a way and passes on to their legacy things that are good for the human race as a whole. That leads right into your next statement that their is no spiritual accountability as if that's a negative. The accountability is to the human race as a whole. That we live among the human race as a whole is a fact. No debate there. As opposed to "spirituality".
As far as a child handling that thought process, if they can handle the concept of "people that don't think exactly like us are going to a place you cant see to burn and suffer and be in torment forever", they probably don't have a problem handling "its a good thing for the human race as a whole".
And I accept you are not intentionally bashing nonbelievers. What baffled me is the disconnect in your thought process that you would have to ask how or why a nonbeliever would raise their child to be caring, loving and empathetic. The simple answer is replace "God" with "human race" when you are teaching them.


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## WaltL1 (Aug 20, 2013)

Thanatos said:


> O! Right on man! It really freaks me out when parents teach their kid to be humble because they are insignificant to the God that created heavens and earth. It really bothers me when these parents teach their kids that no matter what skin color, social economic background, or no matter how physically different another person is from them they are all brothers and sisters in Christ and need to be treated with respect, but most of all love and humility. Jeez! What are we going to do with these people and their fairy tale, God fearing beliefs...


You are leaving out the slightly important fact that only if they believe exactly what you do does their skin color, economic background or physical difference not matter.
Otherwise they deserve to burn.
That's kind of rubbing people the wrong way more and more these days as they realize how self serving, selfish, prejudice and hypocritical that concept is as evidenced by what you describe as a "faltering" in the faith of God.


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## JB0704 (Aug 20, 2013)

bullethead said:


> You and I had that very discussion in a previous thread.



I know.  I am not sure if he was in on that one.  I was just thinking his intentions weren't bad with the question.


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## JB0704 (Aug 20, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I'd worry more about the people that seem to think they have morals, ethics, and empathy because they were given to them by a supreme being yet act no different than everyone else.



I'd worry more about the application than the source, personally.


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## Thanatos (Aug 20, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> You are leaving out the slightly important fact that only if they believe exactly what you do does their skin color, economic background or physical difference not matter.
> Otherwise they deserve to burn.
> That's kind of rubbing people the wrong way more and more these days as they realize how self serving, selfish, prejudice and hypocritical that concept is as evidenced by what you describe as a "faltering" in the faith of God.



Walt ive sent you a private message about your "turn or burn" perspective of our faith. I hope you will respond back.


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## Thanatos (Aug 20, 2013)

Originally Posted by bullethead  "You and I had that very discussion in a previous thread."

Bullet can you PM me the thread so I can read?


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## Thanatos (Aug 20, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> You actually answered the reason WHY yourself. Because its a good thing for the human race as a whole. And there is a point after death. So that legacy you have left behind also acts in a way and passes on to their legacy things that are good for the human race as a whole. That leads right into your next statement that their is no spiritual accountability as if that's a negative. The accountability is to the human race as a whole. That we live among the human race as a whole is a fact. No debate there. As opposed to "spirituality".
> As far as a child handling that thought process, if they can handle the concept of "people that don't think exactly like us are going to a place you cant see to burn and suffer and be in torment forever", they probably don't have a problem handling "its a good thing for the human race as a whole".
> And I accept you are not intentionally bashing nonbelievers. What baffled me is the disconnect in your thought process that you would have to ask how or why a nonbeliever would raise their child to be caring, loving and empathetic. The simple answer is replace "God" with "human race" when you are teaching them.



When all they see around them at school and in the media are pain and suffering in this country and globally...how long do you think they will keep their faith in doing things for the betterment of the human race? If your response is going to be "Well in your view God made it that way", then let's create another thread or head to an existing one on that topic. 

You seem to have no clarity on the Christian faith. All that you've said are that believers shout out "Turn or burn" and that is just not the case. The main concepts that believers of the Judeo Christian faith hold close to their heart's are love and hope.


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## 660griz (Aug 20, 2013)

If the kid is not born with the evolutionary brain function of empathy, it cannot be taught. Lack of it and harming another can be enforced but, not taught. Relgion can only hope to control the kid, teenager, adult and give him hope that if he does mess up, he will be forgiven. Not a big deal.


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 20, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> My 10 year old grand son was in the 4th grade last year.  He's the grandson of a Christian Gospel preacher(me).  He and his family go to church where I serve.  One of his very good friends at school is not only the child of atheists, but this young fellow gets himself into lots of arguments with classmates over his atheist understandings.
> On the playground, if he hears one kid ask another kid to go to youth devotion this night, this young fellow will 'help them out' by letting them know that there is no God.  Then the arguing begins.
> School principal even got involved.  Remember, these are 4th graders.
> 
> ...



If kids can say there is a god and ask their friends to come to a bible study, kids can say there is are no gods....


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 20, 2013)

Thanatos said:


> As JBO pointed out earlier...I wanted to know WHY you told them to care. It is a kids favorite word. Why?
> 
> Being an adult you have the benefit of maturation and can reason out why caring, loving, and being empathetic is a good thing for the human race as whole even though their really is no point after death and there is no "spiritual" accountability during their life. What I want to know is how an immature child handles this thought process. I truly want to know. This is not a hit piece on how Atheist have no morals and ethics. As I stated before I know they do and at times higher than the religious.



You just do. It's good to be nice to people. I mean I've had conversations with my daughter about life like that and there doesn't have to be any reason.. There doesn't have to be a why. Because Daddy says so is enough. Moldable minds... It's the EXACT same reason that you believe what you believe. It makes absolutely not sense to believe in the tale of the bible in the way that you do... but because "for the bible tells me so" was ingrained in your head and mommy and daddy said so, you believe it. Not because it makes perfect sense, but because you had a moldable mind.


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## bullethead (Aug 20, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> It was probably the kids' parent that thought him to stick his nose into a conversation that didn't include him.
> He was only blabbing his mouth where he should have kept it shut because he's probably accustomed to hearing that stuff from his parents.
> 
> He spend a lot of time at my house.  No problems here.  If and when he objects to our praying before a meal I'll ask him to go outside until we're through.
> ...



I have no doubt that in a room full of 4th graders that the atheist kid was the one always blabbing his mouth when he should have kept it shut.


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## JB0704 (Aug 20, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I have no doubt that in a room full of 4th graders that the atheist kid was the one always blabbing his mouth when he should have kept it shut.



I remember feeling really bad about it when I told my 2nd grade class that there was no Santa (parents never led me to believe he existed).  Teacher was really mad.

Do you think the atheist kid has similar reactions?


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## bullethead (Aug 20, 2013)

Thanatos said:


> Originally Posted by bullethead  "You and I had that very discussion in a previous thread."
> 
> Bullet can you PM me the thread so I can read?



Most likely it is a thread with one title that turned into a talk about another.....

That is why you can't miss a day on here or you fall behind!!!!


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## JB0704 (Aug 20, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Most likely it is a thread with one title that turned into a talk about another.....



If your talking about my thread about co-existing, I kept that one on topic.


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## bullethead (Aug 20, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I remember feeling really bad about it when I told my 2nd grade class that there was no Santa (parents never led me to believe he existed).  Teacher was really mad.
> 
> Do you think the atheist kid has similar reactions?



Sure he does. Any time anyone goes against the majority, and now especially in today's world where you can't hurt anyone's feelings, you will be singled out and be made the bad guy.
20+ kids in the class, 4th graders, and the godless kid is the only troublemaker for sure....because it's his parent fault you know.
The others that act up(on the rare occasion that a 4th grade kid would ever do such a thing) are probably just good Christian kids being kids.....


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## bullethead (Aug 20, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> If your talking about my thread about co-existing, I kept that one on topic.



I honestly have no idea what thread it was, when it was etc....and I sure am not reading through a month or two of threads to figure it out either.


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## 660griz (Aug 20, 2013)

My kids were allowed to decide for themselves in relation to religion. Pick one, don't pick one. I don't care. Never brought up anything negative about religion. They went to church with there friends. I allowed them to think for themselves. No molding, or brainwashing performed. I never caught them torturing animals or humans. Never had to threaten them with a torturous eternity. Guess I was lucky. All are grown and none are in jail or homeless at the moment. 

“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” 
― Steven Weinberg


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## JB0704 (Aug 20, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Sure he does. Any time anyone goes against the majority, and now especially in today's world where you can't hurt anyone's feelings, you will be singled out and be made the bad guy.



True.  I was curious, because, as a general rule the atheists I have encountered, while almost all good and decent people, do have an "enlightened" sense about them.  Often this translates as arrogance.



bullethead said:


> 20+ kids in the class, 4th graders, and the godless kid is the only troublemaker for sure....because it's his parent fault you know.
> The others that act up(on the rare occasion that a 4th grade kid would ever do such a thing) are probably just good Christian kids being kids.....



I was one of the "good Christian" trouble makers.  The issue wasn't my beliefs, the issue was my failure to apply them


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## JB0704 (Aug 20, 2013)

bullethead said:


> ....and I sure am not reading through a month or two of threads to figure it out either.



Don't blame 'ya there.  I never go back and search unless I can remember a key word to search.  Once a thread is over, I lose interest.


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## 660griz (Aug 20, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I have no doubt that in a room full of 4th graders that the atheist kid was the one always blabbing his mouth when he should have kept it shut.



Oh yea. Cause we are known for going door to door, sending emails and texts, informing folks how we are not going to pray for them. 

Seriously though, his Moma and Dad should have told him to 'fit in'. Just go along with the herd. When asked to go to bible study, etc. Just make up excuses like, gotta wash my hair, sacrifice a goat, do homework, whatever.


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## 660griz (Aug 20, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I was one of the "good Christian" trouble makers.  The issue wasn't my beliefs, the issue was my failure to apply them




Reminds me of: "I had the right to remain silent...but I didn't have the ability." ---Ron White


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## JB0704 (Aug 20, 2013)

660griz said:


> My kids were allowed to decide for themselves in relation to religion. Pick one, don't pick one. I don't care. Never brought up anything negative about religion. They went to church with there friends. I allowed them to think for themselves. No molding, or brainwashing performed. I never caught them torturing animals or humans. Never had to threaten them with a torturous eternity. Guess I was lucky. All are grown and none are in jail or homeless at the moment.



Just morbid curiosity.....did any chose faith over skepticism?

I don't think religion is mandatory for decency.  I've known too many decent atheists/agnostics.  And, I've known too many Christian scoundrels.  Like I have said, it is the application of one's beliefs.


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## JB0704 (Aug 20, 2013)

660griz said:


> Reminds me of: "I had the right to remain silent...but I didn't have the ability." ---Ron White





Good quote, hadn't heard that one.


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## WaltL1 (Aug 20, 2013)

Thanatos said:


> When all they see around them at school and in the media are pain and suffering in this country and globally...how long do you think they will keep their faith in doing things for the betterment of the human race? If your response is going to be "Well in your view God made it that way", then let's create another thread or head to an existing one on that topic.
> 
> You seem to have no clarity on the Christian faith. All that you've said are that believers shout out "Turn or burn" and that is just not the case. The main concepts that believers of the Judeo Christian faith hold close to their heart's are love and hope.


If all they see is pain and suffering then you aren't doing your job as a parent and you are allowing your child to have a skewed view of life. That approaches the realm of mental child abuse in my view. However pain and suffering certainly exist and they know that. That's why its so important to teach them not to add to that pain and suffering and live their life in a way that has a positive affect on the human race and not a negative.
My response is NOT going to be God made it that way. My response is going to be people make it that way and its also just a part of life. That's what makes my above point so important.
As for my clarity on Christian faith, I am one of those examples you used of adults maturing and having life experiences that swayed them away from a "God". However you have to add to that list - became more knowledgeable, honest with myself and aware. I absolutely agree there are positive aspects to some Christian concepts such as love and hope. However there are also some concepts that I find repulsive, such as turn or burn just to name one, which is undeniably an integral part of the Christian concept, that I cannot and will not force myself to ignore and also it does not take a God to have, achieve, teach or show love and hope.
From your avatar with that cute little kid you appear to be a fairly young guy. I was a believer (surprise surprise) for probably more years than you have been alive so I'm not real sure you are qualified to judge my "clarity" on anything.


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## StriperrHunterr (Aug 20, 2013)

They're 4th graders, so they shouldn't be discussing religion or lack thereof. They don't _know_ much for themselves and it devolves quickly from there into a fight. 

Now, as to the kid inviting the others to service, I don't have a problem with that, provided they abide by the first point. In short, it should be no different than asking a friend to stay the night, or to go to the movies. Leave the religion out of the recreation, since he's asking a friend there most likely to have a companion (not necessarily win a convert, unless he was requested to do so by an adult) and I wouldn't have too much problem with it. 

Now, on the same side of the coin the atheist kid should be able to invite his friends over to discuss why there is no God, in his belief, and not be black listed for it, either. 

If they can't do any of that then it needs to be removed from school. There's already enough distractions to learning, we don't need to add to that.


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## 660griz (Aug 20, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Just morbid curiosity.....did any chose faith over skepticism?



I honestly don't know. Not a topic of discussion but, I don't think any chose faith. I never hear any signs they may have.


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## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2013)

My four year old clearly understands the golden rule.  "How would you like it if they did that to you?"  She also understands that not following the social contract will result in reprimanding or punishment. 

I can't even reconcile how god is good and loving but floods the Earth or allows the ones he loves to go to He11.  I wouldn't even attempt to try to explain that to a child.   If all you teach a child about the Bible is the the sugary sweet,blond haired, blue eyed Jesus holding a lamb surrounded by children and not the raping and warring then you are doing the same disservice to them that was done to me.  

I had to find out those dirty little secrets on my own, after having been filled with fear of darnation.


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## David Parker (Aug 20, 2013)

I provide mine information, not an opinion.  They'll develop an understanding soon enough.  No reason to dwell on either option with them at that age.  If they pose a question about God, I tell them to read the bible for the answer.  If they ask a secular question, I answer it.


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## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2013)

David Parker said:


> I provide mine information, not an opinion.  They'll develop an understanding soon enough.  No reason to dwell on either option with them at that age.  If they pose a question about God, I tell them to read the bible for the answer.  If they ask a secular question, I answer it.



Why don't you tell them about all the other gods as well?  I think that's the best thing to do.

Question to Christians: Do you think you are doing a disservice to your children by not exposing them to other religions?


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## David Parker (Aug 20, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Why don't you tell them about all the other gods as well?  I think that's the best thing to do.
> 
> Question to Christians: Do you think you are doing a disservice to your children by not exposing them to other religions?



I include info about the concept of god/gods and that folks before Christianity, believed in another god, and folks before that, believed in another god, on and on.  The point is, i provide comprehensive info.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 20, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Question to Christians: Do you think you are doing a disservice to your children by not exposing them to other religions?



Define "expose" please?  My kid knows all about lots of different belief systems.  Heck, he knows exactly what atheists believe and why.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Aug 20, 2013)

On one hand I see you question, that you would like to know what athiest teach their children. On the other hand, the question assumes that Christianity is the only basis for teaching children right from wrong.


----------



## David Parker (Aug 20, 2013)

yep, give them the alternatives, all of them.  Even if it's nothingness.  They will grow up prepared and aware.  That's enough to be thankful for right there.

And if blind faith be a truly independant decision, filling a young mind with agenda-driven info, will poison the process and put them behind the 8 ball so to speak, with regard to being saved.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Define "expose" please?  My kid knows all about lots of different belief systems.  Heck, he knows exactly what atheists believe and why.



Show them THEIR book(s).  Tell them about Native American Creation Mythology.  

When I told my daughter that Christians believe that Jesus rose from the dead I told her about Osiris' resurrection and some others.  We looked at this together:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying-and-rising_god

P.S.  I also told her that Jesus can fly.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2013)

David Parker said:


> yep, give them the alternatives, all of them.  Even if it's nothingness.  They will grow up prepared and aware.  That's enough to be thankful for right there.
> 
> And if blind faith be a truly independant decision, filling a young mind with agenda-driven info, will poison the process and put them behind the 8 ball so to speak, with regard to being saved.



Nothing bad comes from being educated.


----------



## TheBishop (Aug 20, 2013)

Thanatos said:


> I know some of you guys who are atheist are raising kids. How do you teach your children to love, respect, and have hope in this world? What are the reasons you give them why it is important? I am truly interested in your thoughts on this.



I lead by example, and let my actions be their guide.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2013)

TheBishop said:


> I lead by example, and let my actions be their guide.



Solid.  I would add: Tell them about your mistakes.


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 20, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> My four year old clearly understands the golden rule.  "How would you like it if they did that to you?"  She also understands that not following the social contract will result in reprimanding or punishment.
> 
> I can't even reconcile how god is good and loving but floods the Earth or allows the ones he loves to go to He11.  I wouldn't even attempt to try to explain that to a child.   If all you teach a child about the Bible is the the sugary sweet,blond haired, blue eyed Jesus holding a lamb surrounded by children and not the raping and warring then you are doing the same disservice to them that was done to me.
> 
> I had to find out those dirty little secrets on my own, after having been filled with fear of darnation.



I would expect 10 years old kids to be much more concerned with playing outside than discussing their Christian beliefs.

My grandson is for sure not going to be getting into those discussions.  He wants to go play and run.  Then run some more.
Also, if a 10 year old invites a friend to church it won't be for the purpose of converting him/her.  It'll be to spend more time together.... eating cookies and drinking fruit punch.
.


----------



## ddd-shooter (Aug 20, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> You just do. It's good to be nice to people. I mean I've had conversations with my daughter about life like that and there doesn't have to be any reason.. There doesn't have to be a why. Because Daddy says so is enough. Moldable minds... It's the EXACT same reason that you believe what you believe. It makes absolutely not sense to believe in the tale of the bible in the way that you do... but because "for the bible tells me so" was ingrained in your head and mommy and daddy said so, you believe it. Not because it makes perfect sense, but because you had a moldable mind.



Yep. The entire demographic of Christians are dumb, indoctrinated people. 
None of us came to God as adults. 
None of us ever searched other religions/read their writings. 

Hey, I'm also going to a blood-letting later, wanna come? 
Sorry


----------



## Thanatos (Aug 20, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> If all they see is pain and suffering then you aren't doing your job as a parent and you are allowing your child to have a skewed view of life. That approaches the realm of mental child abuse in my view. However pain and suffering certainly exist and they know that. That's why its so important to teach them not to add to that pain and suffering and live their life in a way that has a positive affect on the human race and not a negative.
> My response is NOT going to be God made it that way. My response is going to be people make it that way and its also just a part of life. That's what makes my above point so important.
> As for my clarity on Christian faith, I am one of those examples you used of adults maturing and having life experiences that swayed them away from a "God". However you have to add to that list - became more knowledgeable, honest with myself and aware. I absolutely agree there are positive aspects to some Christian concepts such as love and hope. However there are also some concepts that I find repulsive, such as turn or burn just to name one, which is undeniably an integral part of the Christian concept, that I cannot and will not force myself to ignore and also it does not take a God to have, achieve, teach or show love and hope.
> From your avatar with that cute little kid you appear to be a fairly young guy. I was a believer (surprise surprise) for probably more years than you have been alive so I'm not real sure you are qualified to judge my "clarity" on anything.



I do not need many years to see the subjective biased way you were speaking of Christians. It did not take much deductive reasoning when you make it plain to see. 

In my "young" perspective if you have lost your faith, then you never had it at all. Again, that is a topic for  a another thread.


----------



## Thanatos (Aug 20, 2013)

TheBishop said:


> I lead by example, and let my actions be their guide.



When your children ask why you performed a certain action/task a certain way you tell them...because it was the _*right*_ thing to do?


----------



## bullethead (Aug 20, 2013)

What I don't understand is with all the different religions of the world and most of them claiming their God is responsible for their morals and such, why do any believers think they have got exclusive morals, ethics ,empathy and such?
Atheists have been shown to be on equal ground in all those categories and so has believers of other religions, so why why wonder where these things come from when clearly they cannot be pinpointed to one source?


----------



## JFS (Aug 20, 2013)

Thanatos said:


> In my "young" perspective if you have lost your faith, then you never had it at all.



So once you get to a position of faith, you stop learning or thinking?


----------



## JFS (Aug 20, 2013)

Thanatos said:


> because it was the _*right*_ thing to do?



Yep.   See the other recent threads, you can have a "right" thing to do without god.


----------



## WaltL1 (Aug 21, 2013)

Thanatos said:


> In my "young" perspective if you have lost your faith, then you never had it at all. Again, that is a topic for  a another thread.


Ah yes the standard simple minded response that is regurgitated back to every person who moves away from Christianity. Very original.
If you had a quarter in your pocket and you lost it, you never had it at all. See how ridiculous that is? See how that is the exact opposite of truth, common sense and fact?


----------



## WaltL1 (Aug 21, 2013)

Thanatos said:


> I do not need many years to see the subjective biased way you were speaking of Christians. It did not take much deductive reasoning when you make it plain to see.


You mean subjective bias like this? -
I absolutely agree there are positive aspects to some Christian concepts.
That never entered into your deductive reasoning? Maybe you were being biased and filtered that out?


----------



## Thanatos (Aug 21, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> You mean subjective bias like this? -
> I absolutely agree there are positive aspects to some Christian concepts.
> That never entered into your deductive reasoning? Maybe you were being biased and filtered that out?



Walt you never said that until later on in this thread. Go back and look. When I wrote you back yesterday morning and PMed you I was looking only at what you had written that far. 

You still spout out that one of our main Christian doctrines is "turn or burn" which is not the case. There is no love and hope in that sort of philosophy. But, at the end of one's life if you are not a believer then you will be judged accordingly. Not by me or anyone else but by God. You can NOT sit here and say you KNOW that will not happen. The same way I can't say i KNOW it will happen. What I do have is faith that it will happen and through that faith I am comfortable saying I believe it will happen.


----------



## Thanatos (Aug 21, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> Ah yes the standard simple minded response that is regurgitated back to every person who moves away from Christianity. Very original.
> If you had a quarter in your pocket and you lost it, you never had it at all. See how ridiculous that is? See how that is the exact opposite of truth, common sense and fact?



This is a terrible analogy. The correct analogy would be if you thought you had a quarter in your pocket and you searched for it for a real long time. Then, you could never find it so you gave up on it because you could get some change that you would try to make into 25 cents somewhere else.


----------



## Thanatos (Aug 21, 2013)

JFS said:


> So once you get to a position of faith, you stop learning or thinking?



Heck no. You guys kill me who think you have to leave reason and logic at the door when you are a Christian. They work hand in hand together. I have started MANY threads about this in this forum.


----------



## Thanatos (Aug 21, 2013)

bullethead said:


> What I don't understand is with all the different religions of the world and most of them claiming their God is responsible for their morals and such, why do any believers think they have got exclusive morals, ethics ,empathy and such?
> Atheists have been shown to be on equal ground in all those categories and so has believers of other religions, so why why wonder where these things come from when clearly they cannot be pinpointed to one source?



Bullet I agree about the exclusivity of our Christian moral code, but I started this thread to see how you explained the WHY of atheist moral relativism to your atheist children. Unless I've over looked it no one has answered that question yet...

Answer this for me: Do you think Jeffery Dahmer had the "right" to kill and eat those people? The answer is no right? 

Answer this: Do you think that the Korowai tribe or several Melanesian tribes who practice cannibalism has the "right" to have a culture that accepts eating human flesh? This is a group of people who have come together and stated they want to eat human flesh and that is the way they want to live. Are YOU going to tell them their moral and ethical compass is wrong? How can you if your own idea is that you act in away that benefits the whole of your personal and cultural environment. 

It is a logical fallacy and I wanted to know how you explain this to your kids. That is it. Answer away.


----------



## WaltL1 (Aug 21, 2013)

Thanatos said:


> Walt you never said that until later on in this thread. Go back and look. When I wrote you back yesterday morning and PMed you I was looking only at what you had written that far.
> 
> You still spout out that one of our main Christian doctrines is "turn or burn" which is not the case. There is no love and hope in that sort of philosophy. But, at the end of one's life if you are not a believer then you will be judged accordingly. Not by me or anyone else but by God. You can NOT sit here and say you KNOW that will not happen. The same way I can't say i KNOW it will happen. What I do have is faith that it will happen and through that faith I am comfortable saying I believe it will happen.


No.  Post #59. You included my post that said it and responded to it.


----------



## WaltL1 (Aug 21, 2013)

Thanatos said:


> This is a terrible analogy. The correct analogy would be if you thought you had a quarter in your pocket and you searched for it for a real long time. Then, you could never find it so you gave up on it because you could get some change that you would try to make into 25 cents somewhere else.


It is an exact analogy using almost all of the same words in your analogy. I replaced the word faith with the word quarter.


----------



## 660griz (Aug 21, 2013)

> Answer this for me: Do you think Jeffery Dahmer had the "right" to kill and eat those people? The answer is no right?


 The answer is no. There are plenty of Krogers and government cheese. We don't do that here.



> Answer this: Do you think that the Korowai tribe or several Melanesian tribes who practice cannibalism has the "right" to have a culture that accepts eating human flesh?


 Yes. That is their culture, their survival.


> This is a group of people who have come together and stated they want to eat human flesh and that is the way they want to live. Are YOU going to tell them their moral and ethical compass is wrong?


 No. Well maybe from a distance.  
 From what I have read about them, they don't kill humans to eat, they kill humans for self defense and then eat them. Hey, no waste no want.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 21, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Show them THEIR book(s).  Tell them about Native American Creation Mythology.
> 
> When I told my daughter that Christians believe that Jesus rose from the dead I told her about Osiris' resurrection and some others.  We looked at this together:
> 
> ...



Somehwere in there, I am assuming your beliefs were conveyed.  

I have zero issue with my kids reading, learning about, understanding other belief systems.  They also know what I believe and why.  I'm not a big fan of sheltering my kids from the world around them.

For instance, last night my son and I discussed the big bang theory.  He said that "the Bible says God did x,y,z."  I agreed, and said "but does the Bible say how God did x,y,z?"  I think he got the point......science isn't the enemy, it is a tool of understanding, even in a context of faith.

I'm not real worried about him converting to Islam by learning about it.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 21, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Also, if a 10 year old invites a friend to church it won't be for the purpose of converting him/her.  It'll be to spend more time together.... eating cookies and drinking fruit punch.
> .



Yep.


----------



## WaltL1 (Aug 21, 2013)

Thanatos said:


> You still spout out that one of our main Christian doctrines is "turn or burn" which is not the case. There is no love and hope in that sort of philosophy.


Heaven and He11 are just a minor side note in Christian doctorine. Ok.
You may want to focus on love and hope so you can feel all warm and fuzzy about what you believe but to do so you are attempting to ignore or down play the not so warm and fuzzy parts. It would appear you are determining for yourself the value or level of importance of the various parts of your doctorine. From what I remember that is kind of a no-no.


----------



## bullethead (Aug 21, 2013)

Thanatos said:


> Bullet I agree about the exclusivity of our Christian moral code, but I started this thread to see how you explained the WHY of atheist moral relativism to your atheist children. Unless I've over looked it no one has answered that question yet...


Answered a few times in past threads. Nobody wants to go through it all again.



Thanatos said:


> Answer this for me: Do you think Jeffery Dahmer had the "right" to kill and eat those people? The answer is no right?


The answer is "No" because he lives in a society where it is unacceptable. 



Thanatos said:


> Answer this: Do you think that the Korowai tribe or several Melanesian tribes who practice cannibalism has the "right" to have a culture that accepts eating human flesh? This is a group of people who have come together and stated they want to eat human flesh and that is the way they want to live. Are YOU going to tell them their moral and ethical compass is wrong? How can you if your own idea is that you act in away that benefits the whole of your personal and cultural environment.


I would not tell them they are right or wrong. They are "right" as their society dictates. If Dahmer was a member of the tribe his snacks would not have been known here in the USA.



Thanatos said:


> It is a logical fallacy and I wanted to know how you explain this to your kids. That is it. Answer away.


Again, In the past month or so, there has been a few threads started specifically about what you want to discuss again, and there have been a few threads that had turned into what you are asking for now.
Feel free to search the threads if you are truly interested.


----------



## JFS (Aug 21, 2013)

Thanatos said:


> You still spout out that one of our main Christian doctrines is "turn or burn" which is not the case.



Funny, I just read this yesterday:




Woodsman69 said:


> Really? I believe his name is Jesus which means savior. In fact I know its Jesus because I know him as my personal Lord and savior. He is also GOD and if folks don't turn to him in repentance and belief then one day he is going to smite them with a sword! You see JESUS is not a dead sissified long haired hippie hanging on a cross, he is in fact a risen savior, the Prince of Peace, the mighty God, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. To those who don't believe I say this: better turn before you burn.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Aug 21, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> Yep. The entire demographic of Christians are dumb, indoctrinated people.
> None of us came to God as adults.
> None of us ever searched other religions/read their writings.
> 
> ...



If you didn't come as a child, then you were brought to where you are by someone who got it as a child.


----------



## bullethead (Aug 21, 2013)

Thanatos said:


> Bullet I agree about the exclusivity of our Christian moral code, but I started this thread to see how you explained the WHY of atheist moral relativism to your atheist children. Unless I've over looked it no one has answered that question yet...
> 
> Answer this for me: Do you think Jeffery Dahmer had the "right" to kill and eat those people? The answer is no right?
> 
> ...



And add into the mix a scenario where a life or death survival situation occurs. A plane crashes, mountain pass blocked with snow etc... and good old Christians(or any Americans) are forced to decide whether or not to eat a person (might even be already dead) in order to stay alive.  It has happened.
Society says NO! The reality of life or death at THAT moment trumps society and personal thoughts about it.  People outside of the situation(who ultimately judge...lets call them SOCIETY) will change their views about it according to the circumstances involved in the act.
"Well they HAD to eat the dead in order to survive....we won't lock them up"
But if there is a guy on the plane eating someone in the bathroom because the flight had no in flight meal....society is not going to be so understanding.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Aug 21, 2013)

JFS said:


> Funny, I just read this yesterday:



You see though... woodsmen stated the love and hope first... burn isn't the point of the statement... except it is...


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 21, 2013)

JFS said:


> Funny, I just read this yesterday:



FWIW, I sometimes think he only posts here to reinforce a stereotype.


----------



## WaltL1 (Aug 21, 2013)

JFS said:


> Funny, I just read this yesterday:


Originally Posted by Woodsman69 View Post 
Really? I believe his name is Jesus which means savior. In fact I know its Jesus because I know him as my personal Lord and savior. He is also GOD and if folks don't turn to him in repentance and belief then one day he is going to smite them with a sword! You see JESUS is not a dead sissified long haired hippie hanging on a cross, he is in fact a risen savior, the Prince of Peace, the mighty God, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. To those who don't believe I say this: better turn before you burn.

Well, you know, that Jesus guy was just a minor player. Cant really consider what he says as a main part of Christian doctrine. 

There are over 162 references in the New Testament alone which warns of he11. And over 70 of these references were uttered by the Lord Jesus Christ!


----------



## WaltL1 (Aug 21, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> FWIW, I sometimes think he only posts here to reinforce a stereotype.


If so, he's extremely successful at it. Although I think even most atheists/agnostics on here realize he's waaaay out on the outer fringe.


----------



## ddd-shooter (Aug 21, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> If you didn't come as a child, then you were brought to where you are by someone who got it as a child.



I was brought to where I am by the grace of God. 
Let's go back to the original converts. Twelve apostles all adults. Paul an adult. 
Around the world, and even in America (gasp) adults choose to believe. Many leaving another belief system to do so.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 21, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> FWIW, I sometimes think he only posts here to reinforce a stereotype.



He lives it and there are many others like him.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 21, 2013)

bullethead said:


> And add into the mix a scenario where a life or death survival situation occurs. A plane crashes, mountain pass blocked with snow etc... and good old Christians(or any Americans) are forced to decide whether or not to eat a person (might even be already dead) in order to stay alive.  It has happened.
> Society says NO! The reality of life or death at THAT moment trumps society and personal thoughts about it.  People outside of the situation(who ultimately judge...lets call them SOCIETY) will change their views about it according to the circumstances involved in the act.
> "Well they HAD to eat the dead in order to survive....we won't lock them up"
> But if there is a guy on the plane eating someone in the bathroom because the flight had no in flight meal....society is not going to be so understanding.




Why was it OK for Job's daughters to get him drunk and rape him because they thought that the world was ended and that they had to repopulate it the only way they could a la Adam and Eve and Noah?  If the Bible is your model for right and wrong then I'm afraid your more confused than anyone.  If you have to have 'magic discerning powers' to interpret the message then you may as well admit that you are coming up with the interpretation on your own.


----------



## WaltL1 (Aug 21, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> He lives it and there are many others like him.


I do agree with that however I personally view his delivery method as a little over the top compared to the typical believer on this forum anyway. They can get the same message across without appearing psychotic


----------



## TripleXBullies (Aug 21, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> I was brought to where I am by the grace of God.
> Let's go back to the original converts. Twelve apostles all adults. Paul an adult.
> Around the world, and even in America (gasp) adults choose to believe. Many leaving another belief system to do so.



12 people were originally converted by a man who called himself the son of god. People like that are called crazy... And You're following one of those cults from 2000 years ago. Bravo.


----------



## JFS (Aug 21, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> 12 people were originally converted by a man who called himself the son of god. People like that are called crazy... And You're following one of those cults from 2000 years ago. Bravo.



You can get a handful of people to believe anything, even to the point of sacrificing their own lives.  




> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven's_Gate_(religious_group)
> 
> After claiming that a space craft was trailing the comet Hale–Bopp, Applewhite convinced 38 followers to commit suicide so that their souls could board the supposed craft. Applewhite believed that after their deaths, a UFO would take their souls to another "level of existence above human", which he described as being both physical and spiritual.
> 
> ...


----------



## WaltL1 (Aug 21, 2013)

JFS said:


> You can get a handful of people to believe anything, even to the point of sacrificing their own lives.


You have to admit they didn't just talk the talk they also walked the walk. That's what I call serious commitment to the belief that there is something better up there.


----------



## 660griz (Aug 21, 2013)

JFS said:


> You can get a handful of people to believe anything, even to the point of sacrificing their own lives.



Oh so true. I think the line between the spectrum of christian attitudes, 1 end being extremist, the other end being folks you meet in the bar after they leave church, is probably based on their interpretation of the bible. This, once again, goes back to the old vs new testament. Cherry pickers can live a mostly normal life without folks snickering behind their backs or make the neighbors afraid to knock on their door.
Take the bible literal and as entirely the word of God and you will have a rough time. Pick out the touch, feely parts and all is well. 

Oh, and forget about giving 10% of everything you earn too. That was in the bad part. Go with the good stuff. Give what you can.

So, don't let kids read the bible, just teach them the touchy feely parts.


----------



## 660griz (Aug 21, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> You have to admit they didn't just talk the talk they also walked the walk. That's what I call serious commitment to the belief that there is something better up there.



Yea, you just don't see that in Christians much anymore. You would think, if they really really believed they were going to a better place when they died, they would be in a hurry to get there. 
Now, if your reason to believe is "just in case"...well, you may want to hang out here more. Hmmmmm

You may say, "why would griz make that baseless assumption?"
Not entirely baseless, every christian, pastor, etc., I have had the pleasure of discussing this with over the past 30 years, whether they came to my door or met in a grocery line, after a long discussion their final words are always, why not believe...just in case.


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 21, 2013)

660griz said:


> You would think, if they really really believed they were going to a better place when they died, they would be in a hurry to get there.



So, what should we do -- climb out of the baptistery and shoot ourselves?


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 21, 2013)

660griz said:


> Oh so true. I think the line between the spectrum of christian attitudes, 1 end being extremist, the other end being folks you meet in the bar after they leave church, is probably based on their interpretation of the bible. This, once again, goes back to the old vs new testament. Cherry pickers can live a mostly normal life without folks snickering behind their backs or make the neighbors afraid to knock on their door.
> Take the bible literal and as entirely the word of God and you will have a rough time. Pick out the touch, feely parts and all is well.
> 
> Oh, and forget about giving 10% of everything you earn too. That was in the bad part. Go with the good stuff. Give what you can.
> ...



Have you ever read the Bible?


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Aug 21, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Have you ever read the Bible?



And how many times, on this forum, are people who make arguments for Christians to accept other people based on the loving message of the Bible reminded of the vindictive nature of God towards sinners???

Not an attack, I'm just curious how they can defend one side of that sword based on the argument they're trying to make, but not both.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 21, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> And how many times, on this forum, are people who make arguments for Christians to accept other people based on the loving message of the Bible reminded of the vindictive nature of God towards sinners???
> 
> Not an attack, I'm just curious how they can defend one side of that sword based on the argument they're trying to make, but not both.



My guess, having read the Bible, is that they will say that God doesn't have to follow his own rules.  He's a "do as I say, not as I do" kind of guy.  

You can kill plenty if you want to.  Just make sure that you get baptized in prison.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Aug 21, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> My guess, having read the Bible, is that they will say that God doesn't have to follow his own rules.  He's a "do as I say, not as I do" kind of guy.
> 
> You can kill plenty if you want to.  Just make sure that you get baptized in prison.



So he could reveal himself to us and still remain godly, too.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 21, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> So he could reveal himself to us and still remain godly, too.



He can crush you like an ant, or make you a "vessel of wrath" designed to do evil.


----------



## ddd-shooter (Aug 21, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> And how many times, on this forum, are people who make arguments for Christians to accept other people based on the loving message of the Bible reminded of the vindictive nature of God towards sinners???
> 
> Not an attack, I'm just curious how they can defend one side of that sword based on the argument they're trying to make, but not both.



Is a judge vindictive when he sentences a guilty person?


----------



## 660griz (Aug 21, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> Is a judge vindictive when he sentences a guilty person?



I would want a jury of my peers.


----------



## JFS (Aug 21, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> So he could reveal himself to us and still remain godly, too.



+1

Really, how hard could that be for an omnipotent god?


----------



## David Parker (Aug 21, 2013)

JFS said:


> +1
> 
> Really, how hard could that be for an omnipotent god?



have to ask one for that answer....oh wait.  :


----------



## bullethead (Aug 21, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Why was it OK for Job's daughters to get him drunk and rape him because they thought that the world was ended and that they had to repopulate it the only way they could a la Adam and Eve and Noah?  If the Bible is your model for right and wrong then I'm afraid your more confused than anyone.  If you have to have 'magic discerning powers' to interpret the message then you may as well admit that you are coming up with the interpretation on your own.



Your preaching to the choir there Ambush


----------



## bullethead (Aug 21, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> You have to admit they didn't just talk the talk they also walked the walk. That's what I call serious commitment to the belief that there is something better up there.



So the embellished stories written generations later would have us believe....
Throughout Jewish history there have always been followers of someone claiming to be the Messiah. Many died for what they thought was the truth. Just so happens that none of this caught on until much later in history rather than when it was happening.


----------



## JFS (Aug 21, 2013)

David Parker said:


> have to ask one for that answer....oh wait.  :



If I'm wrong about the whole god and judgment thing, I really hope it turns out we are judged by Ahura Mazda.  I would at least get some parting joy at seeing all the christians object that it was unfair to judge them according to the Avestan because it was just an old middle eastern religious book, how were they supposed to know that was the one they were supposed to follow.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 21, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> Is a judge vindictive when he sentences a guilty person?



If he sentenced you to an ETERNAL torture chamber which he built in his basement then I would call him psychopathic.  

The fact alone that he had built such a place would call his sanity into question.  So he's already a psychopath because he built an eternal torture playground in his basement,  I suppose he wouldn't cry too much if someone INSISTED on trying it out.  "Oh, yes. By all means, help yourself.   Second door to the right.  I'm sure you'll find it better than you could ever imagine."

No, wait.  How about judge says "Worship me or I will send you to the eternal torture room (which I built).  Not worshiping me is the same (in my warped, twisted mind) as saying you want the torture room.  Well, you got it.  Now I'll watch you burn for eternity;  in the torture room I built."


----------



## drippin' rock (Aug 21, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Why was it OK for Job's daughters to get him drunk and rape him because they thought that the world was ended and that they had to repopulate it the only way they could a la Adam and Eve and Noah?  If the Bible is your model for right and wrong then I'm afraid your more confused than anyone.  If you have to have 'magic discerning powers' to interpret the message then you may as well admit that you are coming up with the interpretation on your own.



Hello...... It was Lot this happened to.  Duh


----------



## WaltL1 (Aug 21, 2013)

JFS said:


> If I'm wrong about the whole god and judgment thing, I really hope it turns out we are judged by Ahura Mazda.  I would at least get some parting joy at seeing all the christians object that it was unfair to judge them according to the Avestan because it was just an old middle eastern religious book, how were they supposed to know that was the one they were supposed to follow.


Very similar concepts. Interesting reading.
Update:Not really!
Zarathushtra's God is not someone to be feared, for he neither judges, nor does he punish.


----------



## 660griz (Aug 22, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> So, what should we do -- climb out of the baptistery and shoot ourselves?



Of course not. I think that may be a sin. 
However, you could...
1) If in the middle of a lake in an aluminum boat and a thunderstorm comes up, keep fishing.
2) Hunt from a tree stand with no harness.
3) Never check straps on ladder stand.
4) Take up sky diving, scuba diving, cliff diving, bull riding, motorcycle racing, etc.
5) Do not move to an internal hallway during a tornado.
6) Swim immediately after eating. 
7) Eat bacon at every meal.
8) Smoke
9) Go to the projects in Atlanta, around 2 A.M. when the most unholy are out and try to convert some.
10) Never carry a firearm.
11) Search Consumer Reports for the most unsafe vehicle and buy it. 

Just a few but, you get the picture. It is the little things that can help speed your way to the promise land.


----------



## JFS (Aug 22, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> Zarathushtra's God is not someone to be feared, for he neither judges, nor does he punish.



The christian world view isn't very original.  At least these guys had proportionate punishment:



> Zoroastrianism also includes beliefs about the renovation of the world and individual judgment (cf. general and particular judgment), including the resurrection of the dead.
> 
> Individual judgment at death is by the Bridge of Judgment, which each human must cross, facing a spiritual judgment. Humans' actions under their free will determine the outcome. One is either greeted at the bridge by a beautiful, sweet-smelling maiden or by an ugly, foul-smelling old woman. The maiden leads the dead safely across the bridge to the Amesha Spenta Good Mind, who carries the dead to paradise. The old woman leads the dead down a bridge that narrows until the departed falls off into the abyss of he11.  He11 is reformative; punishments fit the crimes, and souls do not rest in eternal he11.  He11 contains foul smells and evil food, and souls are packed tightly together although they believe they are in total isolation.[46]
> 
> ...



By the way, it's retarded that you can't type h e l l   in a religious discussion without the censor kicking in.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 22, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> Hello...... It was Lot this happened to.  Duh




Sorry, Lot.


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 22, 2013)

660griz said:


> Of course not. I think that may be a sin.
> However, you could...
> 1) If in the middle of a lake in an aluminum boat and a thunderstorm comes up, keep fishing.
> 2) Hunt from a tree stand with no harness.
> ...




You left off "Sign up for Obamacare".


----------



## TripleXBullies (Aug 22, 2013)

Taking their lives, or hurrying out, will strike their 10% from the books... can't have that..



660griz said:


> Of course not. I think that may be a sin.
> However, you could...
> 1) If in the middle of a lake in an aluminum boat and a thunderstorm comes up, keep fishing.
> 2) Hunt from a tree stand with no harness.
> ...


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Aug 22, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Taking their lives, or hurrying out, will strike their 10% from the books... can't have that..


No, that's not it. All life is precious, remember?

Except for people who don't believe in your God and sinners. Forget those guys, but everyone else is precious.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Aug 22, 2013)

Of course that's not the reason that's written in the bible.


----------



## 660griz (Aug 22, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> You left off "Sign up for Obamacare".



Correct. That thing is an OBAMAnation.


----------



## WaltL1 (Aug 22, 2013)

JFS said:


> The christian world view isn't very original.  At least these guys had proportionate punishment:
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, it's retarded that you can't type h e l l   in a religious discussion without the censor kicking in.


Good thing there was no copyright laws back then.


----------



## TheBishop (Aug 22, 2013)

Thanatos said:


> When your children ask why you performed a certain action/task a certain way you tell them...because it was the _*right*_ thing to do?



What do you tell your children when they ask why you believe in an ancient book that is chock full of contradictions and errors? You have faith its right, don't you?

I tell them its right becuase I believe its right.  I can make a rational arguement for many things I do, and its all situational. 

I act good to people, becuase it begets goodness. Life is much easier working with people, and getting them to work with you. Empathy, compassion, respect, are all traits of a person that attracts others to them. I need no book to tell me that.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Aug 22, 2013)

TheBishop said:


> What do you tell your children when they ask why you believe in an ancient book that is chock full of contradictions and errors? You have faith its right, don't you?
> 
> I tell them its right becuase I believe its right.  I can make a rational arguement for many things I do, and its all situational.
> 
> I act good to people, becuase it begets goodness. Life is much easier working with people, and getting them to work with you. Empathy, compassion, respect, are all traits of a person that attracts others to them. I need no book to tell me that.


Although for those that do, _How to Win Friends and Influence People_ might be a good place to start, and it doesn't require belief in a superfriend, either. Just acceptance of some pretty observable evidence.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 22, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Except for people who don't believe in your God and sinners. Forget those guys, but everyone else is precious.



Not part of a Christian worldview.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Aug 22, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Not part of a Christian worldview.



Maybe not in human terms, but are you telling me that the Bible doesn't lay out particular punishments for non-believer and sinners?

That's what my point was, that the Bible does so, or so I've had multiple members here tell me; not that the individual feels that way.

But I digress, that gets us back to cherry picking.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 22, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Maybe not in human terms, but are you telling me that the Bible doesn't lay out particular punishments for non-believer and sinners?



It does.  I don't generally get into that because it is irrelevant in this forum.  My point was that a Christian worldview would declare every life precious.  Even the non-believers.

Now, some Christians believe that God only loves a certain few (the elect), which would fit your ideas nicely, I suppose.  Because it doesn't matter if he burns those he doesn't love.  I do not adhere to this concept, but it's out there for those interested.

For those of us who believe every life is precious, we have grace.  The theology behind that is a waste of time until both sides accept that God even exists.  Anything I can possibly say on the subject will only serve to feed a debate which has zero chance of changing anybody's mind.

Now, if you ever find yourself believing in God, and curious about Christianity, I'll be more than happy to share my thoughts on the matter (grace, I believe consequences such as burning are irrelevant to the act of believing and the concept of burning is bedrock for some believers and questionable for others.....which is why I always say consequences and rewards _should _be irrelevant, you either believe of you don't).



StripeRR HunteRR said:


> That's what my point was, that the Bible does so, or so I've had multiple members here tell me; not that the individual feels that way.
> 
> But I digress, that gets us back to cherry picking.



The Bible can be viewed from all sorts of different angles.  As a believer, I can take it and twist it to say whatever I want it to say.  If I can do that, it should be very, very easy for a person who sets out to prove it false to find what they want, jump on it, and beat it to death in an effort to push it as far from logical as possible.

Exhibit A:  Ambush and the talking donkey.

I think the general idea is to look beyond one passage or another which reinforces what we want to hear, and listen to what it's trying to say in the big picture.....which often is much greater than "look, a donkey talked!!!!"  But, such a hurdle cannot be overcome until one accepts that God exists, and the Bible has something to do with him.  The message becomes a little more discernable at such a moment.

Until then, it's just the mindless ramblings of some deranged goat-herders.  What else could it be if there was no God?


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Aug 22, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> It does.  I don't generally get into that because it is irrelevant in this forum.  My point was that a *Christian worldview *would declare every life precious.  Even the non-believers.
> 
> Now, *some Christians believe *that God only loves a certain few (the elect), which would fit your ideas nicely, I suppose.  Because it doesn't matter if he burns those he doesn't love.  I do not adhere to this concept, but it's out there for those interested.
> 
> ...



Ok, I highlighted all the times you denominated yourself from others. 

Which one of these represents "the Christian worldview?"

What else could it be if there was no *God*? You capitalized it. That is a proper noun, which refers to a specific person, or thing. 

Like I said before, I'm agnostic, I recognize the capacity for a creator but I don't know who or what that is. That's why I have a problem with cherry picking your chosen scripture, too. Cherry picking isn't honest to your Bible. It lays it out, in black and white. Now, creation and seven days could be metaphorical, but no one could observe it so we don't know. However, adultery is a sin, right? Why is that any different than the Bible saying that non-believers and sinners should be punished, and harshly? 

I could be way off base here if you are a non-denominational Christian who also doesn't believe in the Bible, but how would that make you any different than I am?


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 22, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Which one of these represents "the Christian worldview?"



I think even the folks who don't believe God loves 'em all still view all life as precious.  Which is to say we don't think it's a decent idea to go around killin' infidels, which was the point I was countering.



StripeRR HunteRR said:


> What else could it be if there was no *God*? You capitalized it. That is a proper noun, which refers to a specific person, or thing.



  You win the grammarin' contest  




StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Cherry picking isn't honest to your Bible.



You have missed the point completely.  I'm not cherry pickin' anything.  My point was that there is a "big picture" which can't really be comprehended if you lock in on certain aspects trying to debunk the "big picture."



StripeRR HunteRR said:


> However, adultery is a sin, right? Why is that any different than the Bible saying that non-believers and sinners should be punished, and harshly?



Does it say I should punish them?  Remember, I am a Christian....the entire work is your context.  You can lock in on OT jewish law if you like, but then you need to find a nother debate sparring partner.  If you are going to debate my position, then you need to use the entire work as I do.

Christian would be a follower of Christ's teachings.  How did he treat adulterers?

Yes. It's a sin.  No.  It's not mine to condemn anybody for.



StripeRR HunteRR said:


> I could be way off base here if you are a non-denominational Christian who also doesn't believe in the Bible, but how would that make you any different than I am?



I believe in the Bible.  Most Christians do.  We all have different takes on it.  For the most part, we agree on the general idea.

1. Adultery is a sin.
2. A Christian has no business hurting anybody for opposing beliefs.

Those two will be almost universally agreed upon by most Christians.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 22, 2013)

And, Striper, you are making my point for me.  Until we can agree that God (capitalized again, for fun), then there is zero point in discussing the merits of the Bible.

Is there any circumstance, with or without God, where adultery (in a general definition) would be morally acceptable?


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 22, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> The Bible can be viewed from all sorts of different angles.  As a believer, I can take it and twist it to say whatever I want it to say.  If I can do that, it should be very, very easy for a person who sets out to prove it false to find what they want, jump on it, and beat it to death in an effort to push it as far from logical as possible.
> 
> Exhibit A:  Ambush and the talking donkey.
> 
> ...




A talking donkey is HUGE.  Your talking about a book that you are using to define your existence.  

What if you were fixing your car and you were reading through the Chilton's manual and it said " release the kotter pin from the bolt and drive the bolt through until the part is released.  Next, apply the urine from a talking donkey on the caliper...."  

Wouldn't that be odd?  You know as well as I do that there are even weirder things in the Bible than talking donkeys, resurrections among them.  

So the Bible says love god and love everybody and then there's a talking donkey.  What am I supposed to think?


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 22, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> And, Striper, you are making my point for me.  Until we can agree that God (capitalized again, for fun), then there is zero point in discussing the merits of the Bible.
> 
> Is there any circumstance, with or without God, where adultery (in a general definition) would be morally acceptable?



If there were very few men and lots of women.  Then I suppose the word adultery wouldn't even be used anymore, 'cept maybe by the remaining religious folks.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 22, 2013)

ambush80 said:
			
		

> A talking donkey is HUGE......
> 
> What if you were fixing your car and you were reading through the Chilton's manual and it said " release the kotter pin from the bolt and drive the bolt through until the part is released.  Next, apply the urine from a talking donkey on the caliper...."



The talking Donkey is completely irrelevant to the Christian faith.

A better example would be:

"release the kotter pin from the bolt and drive the bolt through the part released, next, apply appropriate grease on the caliper........I saw a talking donkey yesterday."

(I used grease because I know nothing about mechanics)



			
				ambush80 said:
			
		

> Do you see what I'm saying?  The instructions are clear, and the donkey is irrelevant.
> 
> So the Bible says love god and love everybody and then there's a talking donkey.  What am I supposed to think?




That it's all the mindless rambling of goat herders.......until you believe there is a God.  Then, love God and everybody else.  Figure whatever you like about the talking donkey.  But, it has nothing to do with being a Christian.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 22, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> If there were very few men and lots of women.  Then I suppose the word adultery wouldn't even be used anymore, 'cept maybe by the remaining religious folks.



In such a scenario there wouldn't be a commitment which would allow promiscuity to be defined as adultery.....no commitment broken.

There is no scenario where adultery can be justified with or without a God in the picture.  It's one of "the rules" that make a little sense, if you think about it.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 22, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> The talking Donkey is completely irrelevant to the Christian faith.
> 
> A better example would be:
> 
> ...



Even if THAT were in the Chilton's book I would do a double take and maybe consider using another instruction manual.  Claims of a talking donkey are never irrelevant unless they come from the insane or a child.  It's so bold and so weird that it should raise eyebrows whenever it's suggested.



JB0704 said:


> That it's all the mindless rambling of goat herders.......until you believe there is a God.  Then, love God and everybody else.  Figure whatever you like about the talking donkey.  But, it has nothing to do with being a Christian.



Are you a fan of the Jefferson Bible?  I am.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 22, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> In such a scenario there wouldn't be a commitment which would allow promiscuity to be defined as adultery.....no commitment broken.
> 
> There is no scenario where adultery can be justified with or without a God in the picture.  It's one of "the rules" that make a little sense, if you think about it.



Interesting point on how perceptions of morality and the language of morality can change.....but I know you don't want to go there.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 22, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Interesting point on how perceptions of morality and the language of morality can change.....but I know you don't want to go there.



Nope.  I detest the morality discussions.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 22, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> It's so bold and so weird that it should raise eyebrows whenever it's suggested.



The idea that God exists extends conversation beyond the physical.  I tend to think you could take this one in stride.  The book of Job should provide a heck-of-a lot more angst than a talking donkey. 



ambush80 said:


> Are you a fan of the Jefferson Bible?  I am.



Not really.  I know very little of it, but from what I understand, he just took out the parts he didn't like.  I don't understand the motivation.  I could probably appreciate it a lot more if it was the work of scholarly research, and conclusions based on enlightened translations rather than being embarrassed about a miracle, so trying to hide it.

If Jefferson read the original in Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic, and determined the contemporary translations were all wrong, so he re-translated it, I would be very interested.

One fella on here, Gr8bldr, does a ton of research into these things.  He generally comes to conclusions which are borderline heresy in the Christian community, but I get the feeling he comes by them through honestly seeking truth.  That's cool to me.  I don't do near the research he does, so I generally listen to what he has to say without agreeing or debating it......just listen and think.


----------



## JFS (Aug 22, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Not really.  I know very little of it, but from what I understand, he just took out the parts he didn't like.  I don't understand the motivation.  I could probably appreciate it a lot more if it was the work of scholarly research, and conclusions based on enlightened translations rather than being embarrassed about a miracle, so trying to hide it.
> 
> If Jefferson read the original in Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic, and determined the contemporary translations were all wrong, so he re-translated it, I would be very interested.



The deletions were not a matter of translation.  Jefferson thought it was better to follow the teachings of Jesus, not deify him based on some whacky improbable stories.


----------



## Thanatos (Aug 23, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> No.  Post #59. You included my post that said it and responded to it.



Walt I didnt look at just one post when I made that statement, thus, the deductive reasoning statement. I took a look at everything you said and came to that conclusion. You said one semi nice thing Christian beliefs versus the many other derogatory statements.


----------



## Thanatos (Aug 23, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> Heaven and He11 are just a minor side note in Christian doctorine. Ok.
> You may want to focus on love and hope so you can feel all warm and fuzzy about what you believe but to do so you are attempting to ignore or down play the not so warm and fuzzy parts. It would appear you are determining for yourself the value or level of importance of the various parts of your doctorine. From what I remember that is kind of a no-no.



From this post I can tell you have no idea about Christian theology. If you want to continue this type of conversation read up a bit and then we can continue. In the Christianity Jesus life was the ultimate UNIVERSAL gift of love. While that holds no  meaning to you to weighs very heavy on me and other believers. The gift of grace was given to everyone...EVERYONE.


----------



## Thanatos (Aug 23, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I would not tell them they are right or wrong. They are "right" as their society dictates. If Dahmer was a member of the tribe his snacks would not have been known here in the USA.
> 
> 
> Again, In the past month or so, there has been a few threads started specifically about what you want to discuss again, and there have been a few threads that had turned into what you are asking for now.
> Feel free to search the threads if you are truly interested.



Bullet that is an interesting answer you have. Are you telling me that if a group of people believe in a culture that lets grown men actively indulge in pedophilia then it is okay? Or, if inside their own group of individuals and their culture says it's okay to beat their wives and children then there is nothing wrong with that? If your logic is sound then you should have no problem with this. 

I will try and read up on the other morality post this weekend, but almost no one has answered the question in the context of explaining this to your CHILDREN. I would love to be the fly on the wall when you tell your kids the above examples are okay because that group of people over there away from us don't have a problem with it then it's okay. I'd love to hear that and the questions that come next.


----------



## 660griz (Aug 23, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Is there any circumstance, with or without God, where adultery (in a general definition) would be morally acceptable?



Maybe. Was Mary married when God was 'with' her?


----------



## Thanatos (Aug 23, 2013)

bullethead said:


> And add into the mix a scenario where a life or death survival situation occurs. A plane crashes, mountain pass blocked with snow etc... and good old Christians(or any Americans) are forced to decide whether or not to eat a person (might even be already dead) in order to stay alive.  It has happened.
> Society says NO! The reality of life or death at THAT moment trumps society and personal thoughts about it.  People outside of the situation(who ultimately judge...lets call them SOCIETY) will change their views about it according to the circumstances involved in the act.
> "Well they HAD to eat the dead in order to survive....we won't lock them up"
> But if there is a guy on the plane eating someone in the bathroom because the flight had no in flight meal....society is not going to be so understanding.



So now we're telling air plane crash, survival stories to prove our points. Awesome. I'll answer this by saying I'd be the first one to take a bite of Jimmy's back side if I were in this scenario. I would like it cooked medium though. I pray we would have a fire. Hopefully the plane had a box of nice Chianti on board too...


----------



## Thanatos (Aug 23, 2013)

TheBishop said:


> What do you tell your children when they ask why you believe in an ancient book that is chock full of contradictions and errors? You have faith its right, don't you?
> 
> I tell them its right becuase I believe its right.  I can make a rational arguement for many things I do, and its all situational.
> 
> I act good to people, becuase it begets goodness. Life is much easier working with people, and getting them to work with you. Empathy, compassion, respect, are all traits of a person that attracts others to them. I need no book to tell me that.



Wow...you "believe" it is right. What an interesting choice of words. You don't know it is right. You just follow the societal norms because the system works better that way. Interesting indeed.


----------



## 660griz (Aug 23, 2013)

Thanatos said:


> Bullet that is an interesting answer you have. Are you telling me that if a group of people believe in a culture that lets grown men actively indulge in pedophilia then it is okay? Or, if inside their own group of individuals and their culture says it's okay to beat their wives and children then there is nothing wrong with that? If your logic is sound then you should have no problem with this.
> 
> I will try and read up on the other morality post this weekend, but almost no one has answered the question in the context of explaining this to your CHILDREN. I would love to be the fly on the wall when you tell your kids the above examples are okay because that group of people over there away from us don't have a problem with it then it's okay. I'd love to hear that and the questions that come next.



Why go to extremes to make a point? What about a tribe that runs around naked? Or, a culture that eats cute little Guinea pigs? Or, puppies? Would you tell your kids that is o.k. or explain how different societies grow up with different survival techniques? I am sure that if children or women were being harmed, the world would be in an uproar. Yes, I would tell them they are wrong. We could help them with the 'why' that is wrong. A reason other than we don't like it.

Remember slavery, well, it was accepted, we knew it was wrong on a global, human scale. Changed it. We should have then edited the bible which would have made explaning to children a lot easier.


----------



## Thanatos (Aug 23, 2013)

660griz said:


> Why go to extremes to make a point? What about a tribe that runs around naked? Or, a culture that eats cute little Guinea pigs? Or, puppies? Would you tell your kids that is o.k. or explain how different societies grow up with different survival techniques? I am sure that if children or women were being harmed, the world would be in an uproar. Yes, I would tell them they are wrong. We could help them with the 'why' that is wrong. A reason other than we don't like it.
> 
> Remember slavery, well, it was accepted, we knew it was wrong on a global, human scale. Changed it. We should have then edited the bible which would have made explaning to children a lot easier.



You are making my point. 

From Wiki:

Moral relativism may be any of several philosophical positions concerned with the differences in moral judgments across different people and cultures. Descriptive moral relativism holds only that some people do in fact disagree about what is moral; meta-ethical moral relativism holds that in such disagreements, nobody is objectively right or wrong; and normative moral relativism holds that because nobody is right or wrong, we ought to tolerate the behavior of others even when we disagree about the morality of it.

The problem is Griz you can't stop at nakedness (which I am fond of personally) if there is no internal source that points what is right or wrong. If there is no God, then we all operate inside the system of what our groups (family, region, country) culture has evolved into the past few centuries. 

Therefore, nothing is wrong as long as your culture believes it to be okay? Griz do you believe that?


----------



## Thanatos (Aug 23, 2013)

660griz said:


> Why go to extremes to make a point? What about a tribe that runs around naked? Or, a culture that eats cute little Guinea pigs? Or, puppies? Would you tell your kids that is o.k. or explain how different societies grow up with different survival techniques? I am sure that if children or women were being harmed, the world would be in an uproar. Yes, I would tell them they are wrong. We could help them with the 'why' that is wrong. A reason other than we don't like it.
> 
> Remember slavery, well, it was accepted, we knew it was wrong on a global, human scale. Changed it. We should have then edited the bible which would have made explaning to children a lot easier.



It's not that extreme 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Man/Boy_Love_Association


----------



## 660griz (Aug 23, 2013)

Thanatos said:


> Therefore, nothing is wrong as long as your culture believes it to be okay? Griz do you believe that?



Of course not. No one has said that. See my slavery example. Not sure what you are trying to say. All I am saying is that some cultures do stuff that we may think is wrong. I would never try to change a tribe from running around naked. It is frowned upon in 'most' of our culture so, we can't. We can say that it is wrong just don't tell them that. We do engage in war, we just don't eat the dead. If a tribe wants to eat their dead for religious reasons, have at it. Freedom and all. We just don't.


----------



## 660griz (Aug 23, 2013)

Thanatos said:


> It's not that extreme
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Man/Boy_Love_Association



I still think that is pretty extreme. My culture though.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Aug 23, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Christian would be a follower of Christ's teachings.  How did he treat adulterers?



That sounds like a cult/religion.. I thought it was a personal relationship???


----------



## TripleXBullies (Aug 23, 2013)

Thanatos said:


> Bullet that is an interesting answer you have. Are you telling me that if a group of people believe in a culture that lets grown men actively indulge in pedophilia then it is okay? Or, if inside their own group of individuals and their culture says it's okay to beat their wives and children then there is nothing wrong with that? If your logic is sound then you should have no problem with this.
> 
> I will try and read up on the other morality post this weekend, but almost no one has answered the question in the context of explaining this to your CHILDREN. I would love to be the fly on the wall when you tell your kids the above examples are okay because that group of people over there away from us don't have a problem with it then it's okay. I'd love to hear that and the questions that come next.



That's not a topic for children so there's no need to talk to them about it. We can only see their morality through ours. I think beating wives and intimate relationships with children is horrible... but it has been completely moral in other societies. IT HAS BEEN. It's not a fairy tale.. It's not just for the sake of conversation. IT HAPPENED.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 23, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> That sounds like a cult/religion.. I thought it was a personal relationship???





I don't care what you want to call it.  Labels are irrelevant on an individual level.


----------



## bullethead (Aug 23, 2013)

Thanatos said:


> Bullet that is an interesting answer you have. Are you telling me that if a group of people believe in a culture that lets grown men actively indulge in pedophilia then it is okay? Or, if inside their own group of individuals and their culture says it's okay to beat their wives and children then there is nothing wrong with that? If your logic is sound then you should have no problem with this.
> 
> I will try and read up on the other morality post this weekend, but almost no one has answered the question in the context of explaining this to your CHILDREN. I would love to be the fly on the wall when you tell your kids the above examples are okay because that group of people over there away from us don't have a problem with it then it's okay. I'd love to hear that and the questions that come next.



Thanatos, all you have to do is research the tribes that do exactly that, along with cannibalism, kidnapping, rape etc and take careful note how modern society not only knows about it, but keeps the tribes very secluded in their own "worlds".

I am not saying that I personally am OK with it, but I am telling you that is the way it is. It happens. Within those tribes/cultures/societies, it is an accepted way of life. They live by their own morals. Much of society around them has changed their morals stance on such things but in all reality, the only difference between the two societies is that one changed what is socially accepted and one did not. 

There was just an incident that made headline news where a tribe(meeko picho or something like that) emerged from the jungle to meet with more advanced people and the guards, YES GUARDS, would not let them cross the river and mingle with the modern people. One reason is because it is a clash of cultures and societies and if they kidnap and run off with a woman or child they are not held to "our" moral standards and laws. 

You guys have got to look outside of your own small box and see what really goes on in in the world. There are examples of every single thing that you guys say doesn't happen or think should not happen because you think your God has some control over it, but it does happen, has been happening since the beginning of humans and beyond. Once you realize these things you will be better off.


----------



## bullethead (Aug 23, 2013)

Thanatos said:


> So now we're telling air plane crash, survival stories to prove our points. Awesome. I'll answer this by saying I'd be the first one to take a bite of Jimmy's back side if I were in this scenario. I would like it cooked medium though. I pray we would have a fire. Hopefully the plane had a box of nice Chianti on board too...



Hey, if the story makes the point I'll use it.

When you are out to dinner and you lop off the waiters arm and ask for it to be cooked your gonna be cooked yourself when the jury is done with you.

Survive a plane crash in a remote spot where rescuers cannot get to you for a few weeks and you have to eat someone in order to survive, there will be no jury.

The morals in each case depend upon and are solely based on the circumstances.
Morals are flexible. And if you say they are not they are not, you are a prime example of how you do not care about morals when faced with a starve or die situation. You are very willing to justify your actions real quick in that scenario.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Aug 23, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> And, Striper, you are making my point for me.  Until we can agree that God (capitalized again, for fun), then there is zero point in discussing the merits of the Bible.
> 
> Is there any circumstance, with or without God, where adultery (in a general definition) would be morally acceptable?



I read your other post and please don't mistake me, I'm not attacking you. I really do like debating you on these things. You're good people. 

No, there is no moral justification for adultery, with or without God or the Bible simply because it violates the Golden Rule. If you want to philander, then be a man about it and tell your wife, or husband, that you want a divorce. However, I also think that adultery is negated if the spouse tells the other, and they agree to have an open marriage just to keep the peace. I know a few that have done it, none that didn't result in divorce anyway, but no one was harmed because they were honest with each other. 

In so far as it being a crime, I disagree with that. No one was harmed, that can't be solved by a divorce.


Now, without jumping to the Bible, can you justify why homosexuality is morally reprehensible? I'm not trying to derail this tread with that, just pointing out that morals can, and you've already taken us there, be separated from religion and the Bible. 

Finally, since we have come to the conclusion illustrated in the paragraph above, about morality being separate from religion, there is net zero effect of atheism on children. You can teach them the same lessons that the Bible does, from a basis of logic and reasoning, without making the "leap of faith" and having no justification other than this book tells us it is so. 

Kid: Mom, Dad, why is it illegal to kill people? 
Parents: Because, we should treat everyone else as we would like to be treated ourselves.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 23, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> I read your other post and please don't mistake me, I'm not attacking you. I really do like debating you on these things. You're good people.
> 
> No, there is no moral justification for adultery, with or without God or the Bible simply because it violates the Golden Rule. If you want to philander, then be a man about it and tell your wife, or husband, that you want a divorce. However, I also think that adultery is negated if the spouse tells the other, and they agree to have an open marriage just to keep the peace. I know a few that have done it, none that didn't result in divorce anyway, but no one was harmed because they were honest with each other.
> 
> ...




Furthermore, these guys are saying that THEIR and only THEIR notion of god provides the right morals.

They want everyone in the world to go by what they say.  I imagine some of them will say "It's not what I want, it's what God wants (I just happen to know what he wants because he speaks to me and I can discern all the weirdness in the Bible.)


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 23, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> I read your other post and please don't mistake me, I'm not attacking you. I really do like debating you on these things. You're good people.



  I enjoy this stuff too.



StripeRR HunteRR said:


> No, there is no moral justification for adultery, with or without God or the Bible simply because it violates the Golden Rule. If you want to philander, then be a man about it and tell your wife, or husband, that you want a divorce. However, I also think that adultery is negated if the spouse tells the other, and they agree to have an open marriage just to keep the peace. I know a few that have done it, none that didn't result in divorce anyway, but no one was harmed because they were honest with each other.
> 
> In so far as it being a crime, I disagree with that. No one was harmed, that can't be solved by a divorce.



Agreed, on all points. 




StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Now, without jumping to the Bible, can you justify why homosexuality is morally reprehensible? I'm not trying to derail this tread with that, just pointing out that morals can, and you've already taken us there, be separated from religion and the Bible.



Without jumping in the Bible, it is very difficult to justify calling homosexual behavior reprehensible, particularly if the homosexual couple is monogamous.  Not sure if you and I have ever discussed this topic, but I tend to be labeled a "liberal" on this issue.  Which is to say I am against laws prohibitting homosexual behavior/marriage (I don't support any gov't involvement in any marriage or private activity which does not produce a victim).  I am also against judging those who are non-believers based on their lifestyle choices.  That's their business.  Not mine.

The only thing I can figure that led to the prohibition in the Bible could be the potential health risks associated with male homosexual behavior.  Add in that reproduction was valued to a much greater extent in Biblical times than it is today.  I dunno, really.  But, you are right, it's a tough sell without the Bible.



StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Finally, since we have come to the conclusion illustrated in the paragraph above, about morality being separate from religion, there is net zero effect of atheism on children. You can teach them the same lessons that the Bible does, from a basis of logic and reasoning, without making the "leap of faith" and having no justification other than this book tells us it is so.
> 
> Kid: Mom, Dad, why is it illegal to kill people?
> Parents: Because, we should treat everyone else as we would like to be treated ourselves.



Yes, I believe atheists can raise kids to be honest, ethical, and decent people just as well as Christians can.  A belief system is only as effective as an individual is willing to apply it......and it goes for all belief systems.

Highlighted in red is the golden rule......I think Jesus said that


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Aug 23, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I enjoy this stuff too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, Jesus did say that, but so have a lot of other prophets and Gods. 

My only point is that a lot of people can agree on the core principles of morality, simply for practical reasons, without couching it in religion. 

If they were to do that, they'd reach a much larger target audience and we could each do within our own homes, or religious facilities, as we pleased. IMO.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 23, 2013)

I edited the post you quoted to keep it less graphic, just an fyi.



StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Yes, Jesus did say that, but so have a lot of other prophets and Gods.



Agreed. Jesus also quoted a known Greek proverb when he said "the healthy do not need a physician."  Cool stuff when you can see some contemporary flare in NT writings.



StripeRR HunteRR said:


> My only point is that a lot of people can agree on the core principles of morality, simply for practical reasons, without couching it in religion.



I have said this before in here, but a lot of "the rules" make sense with or without God.   The requirement to wear seamless clothing still has me a bit stumped, though.



StripeRR HunteRR said:


> If they were to do that, they'd reach a much larger target audience and we could each do within our own homes, or religious facilities, as we pleased. IMO.



The issue, I think, is motivation.  If a Dr. were to tell somebody to quit drinking for health reasons, nobody would clal him judgmental and argue with him.  If a preacher says quit drinking 'cause it's a sin, folks get all kinds of mad.

And, I am one of those folks who generally rebel against authority, so I completely understand that.

And, it's not unbiblical to have a beer anyway


----------



## TripleXBullies (Aug 23, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> And, it's not unbiblical to have a beer anyway



My parents think it is.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 23, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> My parents think it is.



There is only one person who is prohibited from drinking any alcohol....the Biblical term is Bishop, but it is generally translated to "pastor" these days....or, more accuraltely, elder.

Everybody else is just warned against gettin' drunk.....which makes sense with or without the Bible also 

Jesus' first miracle was turning water into wine.  I wonder if Jefferson left that in his translation.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Aug 23, 2013)

I'm not saying they're right. I'm just saying plenty of people think drinking alcohol is a sin.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 23, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> I'm not saying they're right. I'm just saying plenty of people think drinking alcohol is a sin.



Agreed, and it makes for some fantastic debate amongst Christians.......folks rarely change sides on that one.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Aug 23, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> I'm not saying they're right. I'm just saying plenty of people think drinking alcohol is a sin.



Alcohol in general or alcohol in excess? 

Excess goes to their views on gluttony, which even can be argued from an a-religious sense. 

In general is hypocritical since even Jesus drank wine.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 23, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Alcohol in general or alcohol in excess?
> 
> Excess goes to their views on gluttony, which even can be argued from an a-religious sense.
> 
> In general is hypocritical since even Jesus drank wine.



Did you grow up in a religious environment?  Reason I ask is that these folks, Baptists is particular, will argue till their dead that Jesus' wine was non-alcoholic


----------



## TripleXBullies (Aug 23, 2013)

In general.

I can kind of see it... When I am thirsty, I want MILK. I LOVE milk. I would always prefer milk to beer... I do like beer but not nearly as much as milk... But after a long week, a beer does better... because of its affects on me.. Even not in excess. So, I drink beer because it has alchohol....


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Aug 23, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Did you grow up in a religious environment?  Reason I ask is that these folks, Baptists is particular, will argue till their dead that Jesus' wine was non-alcoholic



My mom works for the diocese, but we were more spiritual than religious. 

Some Baptists will also tell you to hold snakes and speak in tongues to get closer to Jesus. I put about as much stock in their, or anyone else's claims about anything, as I do in holding that copperhead to get close to God. 

I guess if I mess up then I'll find out in a few short hours who's right, but I've already had one near death experience, so I think I'll let them handle that.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Aug 23, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> In general.
> 
> I can kind of see it... When I am thirsty, I want MILK. I LOVE milk. I would always prefer milk to beer... I do like beer but not nearly as much as milk... But after a long week, a beer does better... because of its affects on me.. Even not in excess. So, I drink beer because it has alchohol....



I don't get it then. Beer and wine were both common drinks of the day simply because it kept the liquid from getting contaminated with something else. 

The Bible even gives accounts of Jesus at least serving, if not consuming, wine, himself. If it's a sin then why would Jesus serve them, and then base the Communion rite upon it? "Take this cup and drink of it, for it is my blood; do this in remembrance of me," if I recall correctly.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Aug 23, 2013)

Wine was more necessary then to keep drinks from getting funky is the way it was given to me. Yes, they are/I was baptist.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Aug 23, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Wine was more necessary then to keep drinks from getting funky is the way it was given to me. Yes, they are/I was baptist.



The same goes for beer.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Aug 23, 2013)

But it's not necessary any more.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Aug 23, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> But it's not necessary any more.



You're arguing sin relative to the necessity of the offense? 

We don't need horses any more either, is it a sin to ride one? 

Does the Bible give an expiration clause on things like that, like you're grandfathered in for a generation after the object becomes obsolete?


----------



## TripleXBullies (Aug 23, 2013)

I drink beer.. and I don't believe it's a sin. Definitely not one against any god.. so don't ask me... 

I would say it's more of an attempt to change morality.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Aug 23, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> I would say it's more of an attempt to change morality.



Ok, fair enough, I must have misunderstood your post. 

As to the one above, how so?


----------



## TripleXBullies (Aug 23, 2013)

Christians change morality based on the bible and succeed all the time. In this case, baptists trying to make it immoral to drink beer.. definitely don't sell it on a holy day!


----------



## bullethead (Aug 25, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Thanatos, all you have to do is research the tribes that do exactly that, along with cannibalism, kidnapping, rape etc and take careful note how modern society not only knows about it, but keeps the tribes very secluded in their own "worlds".
> 
> I am not saying that I personally am OK with it, but I am telling you that is the way it is. It happens. Within those tribes/cultures/societies, it is an accepted way of life. They live by their own morals. Much of society around them has changed their morals stance on such things but in all reality, the only difference between the two societies is that one changed what is socially accepted and one did not.
> 
> ...



http://news.yahoo.com/isolated-mashco-piro-indians-appear-peru-034457368.html


----------



## HawgJawl (Sep 25, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Some Baptists will also tell you to hold snakes and speak in tongues to get closer to Jesus. I put about as much stock in their, or anyone else's claims about anything, as I do in holding that copperhead to get close to God.



It's not just "some Baptists" who advocate holding snakes and speaking in tongues.  That part of the bible is written in red.

In the book of Mark, chapter 16, verses 15-20, as part of the Great Commission, Jesus Christ divided the entire world into only 2 groups; 
Group A-those who believe, and 
Group B-those who do not believe.  
Jesus said that certain signs will follow "Group A" those who believe; casting out devils, speaking in new tongues, taking up serpents, drinking poison, and laying hands on the sick to heal them.  
Everyone who is not in "Group A" is automatically in "Group B"-those who do not believe.
No signs were listed to identify all those who do not believe "Group B".  Therefore it could be argued that if a person does not display those signs specified by Jesus Christ of a believer, they are by Jesus' own definition a non-believer.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 25, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> It's not just "some Baptists" who advocate holding snakes and speaking in tongues.  That part of the bible is written in red.
> 
> In the book of Mark, chapter 16, verses 15-20, as part of the Great Commission, Jesus Christ divided the entire world into only 2 groups;
> Group A-those who believe, and
> ...


Group B just got a whoooole lot bigger.
So what is the opposing argument against that interpretation other than "nuh uh"?  Surely that's not accepted as fact by a large majority of Christians?


----------



## HawgJawl (Sep 25, 2013)

Mark 16:15-20 was declared to be canonical scripture by the Council of Trent and I read it in my King James Version of the Bible.  If it is not true and accurate, please explain how it got into my copy of the "inerrant Word of God".


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Sep 25, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Mark 16:15-20 was declared to be canonical scripture by the Council of Trent and I read it in my King James Version of the Bible.  If it is not true and accurate, please explain how it got into my copy of the "inerrant Word of God".



Because that inerrant word of God was written and ordained by men, who would rather have you believe it wholesale than argue it in any way. 

It's like reading an encyclopedia that only cites itself as a source. You wouldn't believe what was in those books, would you? 

The Bible is factual because the Bible tells me so...

That makes zero sense whatsoever.


----------



## centerpin fan (Sep 25, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> So what is the opposing argument against that interpretation other than "nuh uh"?



That it (along with the other signs mentioned) was a confirmation of the authority of the messenger and that it was temporary.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 25, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Mark 16:15-20 was declared to be canonical scripture by the Council of Trent and I read it in my King James Version of the Bible.  If it is not true and accurate, please explain how it got into my copy of the "inerrant Word of God".


Im not arguing what it says at all or that its in the Bible.
Im merely pointing out that surely some other Christians would not agree with that and was asking what their argument would be against it.


----------



## HawgJawl (Sep 25, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> That it (along with the other signs mentioned) was a confirmation of the authority of the messenger and that it was temporary.



I agree completely that it's purpose was to demonstrate the authority of the messenger.  

I do not believe that it was temporary.

My issue with the temporary part is that I believe that the Great Commission was issued to all Christians and not just to the disciples, therefore the original purpose of the demonstration of God's power is still just as relevant today as it was then.  If the power was given solely to the disciples with the instruction to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature, then "temporary" should mean the amount of time it would take the disciples to navigate the entire planet and preach to every person on earth.  We know that the disciples did not do this, and we know that it would have been physically impossible for them to do this.  The instructions could not have been solely for the disciples.  I believe the instructions were for all Christians.


----------



## HawgJawl (Sep 25, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> Im not arguing what it says at all or that its in the Bible.
> Im merely pointing out that surely some other Christians would not agree with that and was asking what their argument would be against it.



Walt, I agree with your post and I wasn't responding to it.  I was following up on my first post.  Sorry for the confusion.

I too enjoy "Christians" trying to justify why they can't perform the miracles Jesus promised every believer can perform if they have faith the size of a mustard seed.


----------



## centerpin fan (Sep 25, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I believe the instructions were for all Christians.



The post-apostolic writings are remarkably free of references to snake handling and poison drinking.  (BTW, the poison drinking part of that verse gets downplayed considerably.)


----------



## HawgJawl (Sep 25, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> The post-apostolic writings are remarkably free of references to snake handling and poison drinking.  (BTW, the poison drinking part of that verse gets downplayed considerably.)



That is the reason for my post #175.  Sorry it was premature.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 25, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Walt, I agree with your post and I wasn't responding to it.  I was following up on my first post.  Sorry for the confusion.
> 
> I too enjoy "Christians" trying to justify why they can't perform the miracles Jesus promised every believer can perform if they have faith the size of a mustard seed.


Now I understand. My fault for assuming your post was directed at me.


----------



## centerpin fan (Sep 25, 2013)

Animal Planet had a snake handling show last year.  Now NatGeo has one.  I haven't watched it, but I have seen the ads:

http://www.christianpost.com/news/s...tors-on-controversial-christian-faith-104002/


----------



## TripleXBullies (Sep 25, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> It's not just "some Baptists" who advocate holding snakes and speaking in tongues.  That part of the bible is written in red.
> 
> .....casting out devils, speaking in new tongues, taking up serpents, drinking poison, and laying hands on the sick to heal them.  .....




The baptists that I associated with and MYSELF never did any of that stuff... and we all believe(d) that we were part of the few...


----------



## centerpin fan (Sep 25, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> The baptists that I associated with and MYSELF never did any of that stuff... and we all believe(d) that we were part of the few...



Very few Baptists I'm aware of dabble in the charismatic gifts and generally take a very "anti" position regarding them.  I think there is black Baptist denomination that goes in for tongues, but they draw the line there.


----------



## HawgJawl (Sep 25, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> The baptists that I associated with and MYSELF never did any of that stuff... and we all believe(d) that we were part of the few...



Same here.  My church never did that either.  I just like to look for anything in scripture that is specifically described and is measurable or at least observable, especially when it is written in red.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Sep 25, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Same here.  My church never did that either.  I just like to look for anything in scripture that is specifically described and is measurable or at least observable, especially when it is written in red.



I can respect that.... I'm not sure of your current stance... but how can you look for those measurable/observable things "written in red," and then be comfortable not displaying them?



Written in red may be a topic for itself... So let's just assume that the J man really said it word for word...


----------



## TripleXBullies (Sep 25, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Very few Baptists I'm aware of dabble in the charismatic gifts and generally take a very "anti" position regarding them.  I think there is black Baptist denomination that goes in for tongues, but they draw the line there.



Yes... ANTI is close.. My sister is good with tongues and other charismatic gifts now though... She was always a bit over the top for me..


----------



## HawgJawl (Sep 26, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> I can respect that.... I'm not sure of your current stance... but how can you look for those measurable/observable things "written in red," and then be comfortable not displaying them?
> 
> 
> 
> Written in red may be a topic for itself... So let's just assume that the J man really said it word for word...



I'm NOT comfortable that I can't perform the miracles that Jesus promised throughout scripture, not just in the book of Mark.  I have a huge problem with that.  It's very interesting to me that most other Christians do not seem to have a problem with it and consistently ignore it.  Every once in a while I get some lame excuse but it never jives with scripture.

Any believer with faith the size of a mustard seed can move a mountain.  But the Great Commission is focused on those who are delivering God's word.  I don't mean simply reading the Bible, I mean interpreting it for other people.  Preachers don't simply read scripture, pray, and then go home.  They interpret scripture, they make assumptions about motivations and intentions, they make assertions about how it applies to everyday life, and they make statements about what is going on in the mind of God.  The book of Mark sets a standard for who is qualified to make those type statements and listeners should require those signs before believing that what is being said is truly the Word of God.


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 26, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I'm NOT comfortable that I can't perform the miracles that Jesus promised throughout scripture, not just in the book of Mark.  I have a huge problem with that.  It's very interesting to me that most other Christians do not seem to have a problem with it and consistently ignore it.  Every once in a while I get some lame excuse but it never jives with scripture.
> 
> Any believer with faith the size of a mustard seed can move a mountain.  But the Great Commission is focused on those who are delivering God's word.  I don't mean simply reading the Bible, I mean interpreting it for other people.  Preachers don't simply read scripture, pray, and then go home.  They interpret scripture, they make assumptions about motivations and intentions, they make assertions about how it applies to everyday life, and they make statements about what is going on in the mind of God.  The book of Mark sets a standard for who is qualified to make those type statements and listeners should require those signs before believing that what is being said is truly the Word of God.




Amen?


----------



## HawgJawl (Sep 26, 2013)

Hello Ambush,

It's been a while since I've been on here.  It's good to see some of the same folks still around.

Would you pay closer attention to the words spoken by a preacher if he first qualified himself as a true messenger of God by performing a miracle as instructed by Jesus in the book of Mark?


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 26, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Hello Ambush,
> 
> It's been a while since I've been on here.  It's good to see some of the same folks still around.
> 
> Would you pay closer attention to the words spoken by a preacher if he first qualified himself as a true messenger of God by performing a miracle as instructed by Jesus in the book of Mark?



Good to have you back.  

Absolutely.  Drink poison and live and you have my attention.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Sep 26, 2013)

Agreed... That's why that dude on TV that used to have those healing sermons made so much money.... wait what??


----------



## HawgJawl (Sep 26, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Good to have you back.
> 
> Absolutely.  Drink poison and live and you have my attention.



There are many examples of this throughout the Bible.  God instructed Moses to perform miracles in order to qualify himself as a true messenger of God.  God instructed the prophet Elijah to perform miracles to give credence to his message to the King of Samaria.  Jesus performed many miracles, not to be viewed as a miracle worker but to qualify His words.  Jesus instructed His disciples to perform miracles in order to give authority to their words, which they did many times throughout the book of Acts.  This miraculous power, given to true believers in Jesus Christ is discussed in the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, Galatians, James, and 1 John.  It was clearly a pretty popular concept back then, not so much now.


----------



## centerpin fan (Sep 26, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Drink poison and live and you have my attention.





TripleXBullies said:


> Agreed... That's why that dude on TV that used to have those healing sermons made so much money.... wait what??



I've seen lots of tongue-speaking and healing on TV -- and exactly zero poison-drinking.


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## TripleXBullies (Sep 26, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Would you pay closer attention to the words spoken by a preacher if he first qualified himself as a true messenger of God by performing a miracle as instructed by Jesus in the book of Mark?



I should have quoted this. It doesn't have to be poison, just REAL miracles.


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## JB0704 (Sep 26, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> It doesn't have to be poison, just REAL miracles.



What if you see miracles all the time, and define them otherwise?

I think life is a miracle.  Consider how small we are in the universe, and the chance that life happened at all in such a desolate place.....I think any fair assessment would say the same.  We are just very used to it.....but, imagine you were a space traveler visiting every planet, and encountering so much non-living matter, what would you think when you happend across animated matter?

Now, what is the source of those miracles?


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## TripleXBullies (Sep 26, 2013)

Every day miracles aren't miracles in the first place to me.. Definitely not the kind that get my attention for someone preaching what I previously thought was nonsense at least...


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## HawgJawl (Sep 26, 2013)

Scripture provides many examples of God demonstrated His miraculous power openly and directly.  There was no suggestion that ambiguity was needed in order to promote faith.  God did not hesitate to speak directly to man clearly inflicting a distinct punishment for a specific sin.  The God of the Old Testament was a very present power, a God of wrath, a God to be feared.  Deuteronomy 6:13-15 states thou shalt fear the Lord thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.  Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you;  For the Lord thy God is a jealous God among you, lest the anger of the Lord thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth.  When a person indicates that they would like to see proof of God’s existence, they are often quoted Matthew 4:7 or Luke 4:12 where Jesus tells Satan thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God, but the issue between Jesus and Satan had nothing to do with proving identity or power.  Satan knew exactly who Jesus was and what Jesus was capable of doing.  The temptation was for Jesus to succumb to the vanity of His own power as opposed to strictly following the Father’s will.  This example is not relevant to a person asking for a sign from God to prove that God is real, and it is not true to proclaim that God does not provide such signs.  Psalms 77:14 states thou art the God that doest wonders: thou hast declareth thy strength among the people.  The books of Exodus and Deuteronomy are filled with signs and wonders and miracles exhibited by God.  Exodus 7:9 states when Pharaoh shall speak unto you, saying, Shew a miracle for you: then thou shalt say unto Aaron, take thy rod, and cast it before Pharaoh, and it shall become a serpent.  God provided miracles on demand to offer as proof to Pharaoh.  God provided numerous miracles to Israel to prove His power such as the pillar of cloud and fire, the passage through the Red Sea, water from the rock, the Jordan River divided, the walls of Jericho, the sun and moon stand still, etc.  Numbers 14:22-23 states because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice.  Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it.  Scripture shows us how God repeatedly provided great demonstrations of His power.  In Judges 6, Gideon asked for a sign from God.  God provided a sign to Gideon by making fire come up out of a rock to consume an unleavened cake.  Then Gideon asked for another sign of a fleece being wet with dew in the morning while the earth around it was dry.  God provided the sign as requested.  Then Gideon asked for yet another sign by the fleece being dry the next morning while the earth around it was wet.  God did not hesitate to provide these signs.  In 2nd Chronicles 7:1, when Solomon had made an end of praying, the fire came down from heaven, and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of the Lord filled the house.  The prophet Elijah accused King Ahab of forsaking the commandments of the God of Israel and challenged the prophets of Baal to a contest to prove which one was the true God.  They each built alters for their bullock and prayed to their God to miraculously ignite their fire.  The prophets of Baal prayed from morning until noon for fire.  After noon, Elijah began mocking them saying that their God may be busy talking or may be asleep.  The prophets of Baal began crying aloud and cutting themselves with knives, but no fire came.  Elijah then had four barrels of water poured over his alter and in the trench around his alter and had that repeated a second and third time before praying for fire.  1st Kings 18:36-39 states and it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, Lord God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.  Hear me, O Lord, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the Lord God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again.  Then the fire of the Lord fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.  And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The Lord, he is the God; the Lord, he is the God.  These miracles were spectacular displays of God’s power and served to glorify God and reestablish His position of authority over people who had forsaken Him.  Considering all these past instances of God publically providing direct proof of His existence and His power to the same people over and over, with no apparent regard for the correlation between proof and faith, why would it be unreasonable to ask God to do it just once for us who have never witnessed it?


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## TripleXBullies (Sep 26, 2013)

Jeez man.... Paragraphs.....


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## HawgJawl (Sep 26, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Jeez man.... Paragraphs.....



Sorry, I got carried away.


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## TripleXBullies (Sep 26, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Scripture provides many examples of God demonstrated His miraculous power openly and directly.  There was no suggestion that ambiguity was needed in order to promote faith.  God did not hesitate to speak directly to
> .................
> t regard for the correlation between proof and faith, why would it be unreasonable to ask God to do it just once for us who have never witnessed it?



Great scriptures... So you tell me... Why doesn't your god provide those miracles and show you the proof of his existence. He didn't make those people rely on the miracle of all of existence. He directly answered all of those prayers and doesn't do that at all any more. 

IMO there are two completely plausible, understandable and probably answers.... 1 - those things didn't happen at all. 2 - Plenty of things like that happened over thousands of years and those people may have been completely convinced it was their god answering them...... And those things happen still today, but have other reasonable and measurable explanations.... including people falsifying them for their own gain.


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## HawgJawl (Sep 26, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Great scriptures... So you tell me... Why doesn't your god provide those miracles and show you the proof of his existence. He didn't make those people rely on the miracle of all of existence. He directly answered all of those prayers and doesn't do that at all any more.
> 
> IMO there are two completely plausible, understandable and probably answers.... 1 - those things didn't happen at all. 2 - Plenty of things like that happened over thousands of years and those people may have been completely convinced it was their god answering them...... And those things happen still today, but have other reasonable and measurable explanations.... including people falsifying them for their own gain.



I can't explain it.  I'm hoping that someone else can.  Post #200 is my rebuttal to the standard ascertion that asking for a sign is "testing God" and He doesn't work that way.


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## JB0704 (Sep 26, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Every day miracles aren't miracles in the first place to me..



In a universal perspective, heck man, in the context of our own solar system, life is quite rare.  It's just "every day" to you.  Lots of dust particles floating around would probably prefer to be alive if given the choice.



TripleXBullies said:


> Definitely not the kind that get my attention for someone preaching what I previously thought was nonsense at least...



If everybody walked on water, walking on water wouldn't be a miracle, and you would be saying the same things.  But, as it stands now, walking on water is a miracle.

If everybody could levitate, levitating would not be a miracle.

And on and on.  How much of our everyday activity is just as impossible when viewed in context of everything else?


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## HawgJawl (Sep 27, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> In a universal perspective, heck man, in the context of our own solar system, life is quite rare.  It's just "every day" to you.  Lots of dust particles floating around would probably prefer to be alive if given the choice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





HawgJawl said:


> I'm NOT comfortable that I can't perform the miracles that Jesus promised throughout scripture, not just in the book of Mark.  I have a huge problem with that.  It's very interesting to me that most other Christians do not seem to have a problem with it and consistently ignore it.  Every once in a while I get some lame excuse but it never jives with scripture.
> 
> Any believer with faith the size of a mustard seed can move a mountain.  But the Great Commission is focused on those who are delivering God's word.  I don't mean simply reading the Bible, I mean interpreting it for other people.  Preachers don't simply read scripture, pray, and then go home.  They interpret scripture, they make assumptions about motivations and intentions, they make assertions about how it applies to everyday life, and they make statements about what is going on in the mind of God.  The book of Mark sets a standard for who is qualified to make those type statements and listeners should require those signs before believing that what is being said is truly the Word of God.



This isn't about everyone being able to perform miracles.  This is about a Christian choosing to follow the Great Commission and performing a miracle for the purpose of establishing credibility and demonstrating the power of the God whose word they are spreading, as Jesus Christ instructed.


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## centerpin fan (Sep 27, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> This is about a Christian choosing to follow the Great Commission and performing a miracle for the purpose of establishing credibility and demonstrating the power of the God whose word they are spreading, as Jesus Christ instructed.



This has not concerned any of the great evangelists in history, from Cyril and Methodius to Billy Graham.


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## HawgJawl (Sep 27, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> This has not concerned any of the great evangelists in history, from Cyril and Methodius to Billy Graham.



There are many Christians who follow the example of "great evangelists" instead of following the example and instruction of Jesus Christ.


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## TripleXBullies (Sep 27, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> This has not concerned any of the great evangelists in history, from Cyril and Methodius to Billy Graham.



"great" is an opinion.. I think HJ is saying that they could all be false prophets.


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## HawgJawl (Sep 27, 2013)

If a person wishes to be a Christ-like they should follow the example provided by Christ and the instructions issued by Christ to His followers even in regard to the right way to spread His word.


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## TripleXBullies (Sep 27, 2013)

Christ never wrote a book in the bible. I didn't witness the miracles performed by the people who did write the books of the bible... I didn't witness his miracles either... Credibility gone..   I can claim that I performed miracles when you weren't looking... I walked on water the other day, I parted the lake the other day... That doesn't make me credible.


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## centerpin fan (Sep 27, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> There are many Christians who follow the example of "great evangelists" instead of following the example and instruction of Jesus Christ.



No doubt.


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