# Stolen from Sinclair "Think in advance for health(SOUL)"



## j_seph

sinclair1 said:


> I lost my brother to heart disease, he knew he  drank too much and ate bad foods, but when you feel good, the easy way  is to say " *your gonna die from something*"
> 
> *As he was in his last days*, he would have done anything to go back and  listen, to take health more serious and relize that he did die anyway,  but he was in control of it being 49.
> 
> The same story for my mom, smoked 50 years and ignored and avoided the problems that would come one day.
> She now has COPD and wish she would have taken quitting serious.
> 
> It hard to stay focused because the ones that are on that same path in  life, like to point at uncle Willis who smoked, ate bad and *lived to  100*.
> 
> Well uncle Willis had a slim chance, but he did it. I do not wish to  roll the dice and *feel that regret* that I shoulda listened, I need to  get in shape or I will suffer a life eating pills, dying at 65 or  possibly even sooner.
> 
> *It's hard to do the work and saying you gonna die anyway* is sho nuff  easier, but try and put yourself in the future, you gonna feel strong  about your choice when it's time for a new heart or liver at 60?
> 
> The crazy part is I am in better shape than most of America, but yet I am in danger of checking out sooner than I plan.
> 
> My dad always said if he makes it to 75 he would be happy, until he got  to 74. Don't let the deal you make today, fog up what you will feel when  that day comes. You will regret it, if the folks I watched take the  last breath is any evidence.
> 
> Even if you still come on here and say who cares
> , give me a beer, that choice is one that you will regret when the day comes.
> 
> I done the whole get in shape a few years back and lost 65 lbs, but in  typical fashion, I let 35 sneak back. No more, this is my pledge and the  post I will use to keep track of the progress.
> 
> I wish you folks a merry Christmas and a happy new year. I hope some  will join me to look into the future and feel that day the pain hits,  you will have to modify the diet, smoking after the heart attack, so why  not today.


Sinclairs post got me to thinking, " Your gonna die from something", "As he was in his last days", "lived to 100", "Feel the regret", "It's hard to do the work and saying your gonna die anyway"
Folks we all gonna die with a one way ticket to either Heaven or He77. Is it really worth waiting till you are in your last days? Even if you make it to 100? It is not that hard to get right with the Lord and accept him as your personal savior. All the stuff you can do to make your temporary life here on this earth won't mount to a hill of beans in the shape you will come into when you leave this temporary body and earth as we know it. For some we will have a new body for others, well the outcome won't be so good. Time to give it some thought, once you have regrets about this it will be too late. 
James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.


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## gordon 2

Amen.  People should take responsibility for their spiritual lives.


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## rjcruiser

gordon 2 said:


> Amen.  People should take responsibility for their spiritual lives.



Our time on this earth is but a blink compared to eternity.


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## welderguy

Are the ones ,who are not His sheep, able to come to Him and "accept" Him?

(Such as the ones in John 10:26-27.)

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:


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## hobbs27

Revelation 22:16 `I, Jesus did send my messenger to testify to you these things concerning the assemblies; I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star!
17 And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come; and he who is hearing -- let him say, Come; and he who is thirsting -- let him come; and he who is willing -- let him take the water of life freely.


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Revelation 22:16 `I, Jesus did send my messenger to testify to you these things concerning the assemblies; I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star!
> 17 And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come; and he who is hearing -- let him say, Come; and he who is thirsting -- let him come; and he who is willing -- let him take the water of life freely.



Are those ,that are not His sheep,able to hear ?
Do they thirst after Him?Or hunger?
Are they willing ?


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## j_seph

welderguy said:


> Are those ,that are not His sheep,able to hear ?
> Do they thirst after Him?Or hunger?
> Are they willing ?


Are those who are not his sheep not those who choose to not follow him, believe in him, accept him? 

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come; and he who is hearing -- let  him say, Come; and he who is thirsting -- let him come; and he who is  willing -- let him take the water of life *freely*.


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## welderguy

j_seph said:


> Are those who are not his sheep not those who choose to not follow him, believe in him, accept him?
> 
> Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come; and he who is hearing -- let  him say, Come; and he who is thirsting -- let him come; and he who is  willing -- let him take the water of life *freely*.



Are you implying that one has a choice whether to be a sheep or not?


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## welderguy

I'm all for telling EVERYONE they need to repent and turn to Jesus,because we don't know who are the sheep and who are the goats.That's evangelism.
But if you believe Jesus died for everyone,but is depending on our choosing Him for salvation,then that is a weak Jesus and certainly not the Jesus of the bible.He redeemed ALL that the Father gave Him and didn't lose a single one.


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> I'm all for telling EVERYONE they need to repent and turn to Jesus,because we don't know who are the sheep and who are the goats.That's evangelism.
> But if you believe Jesus died for everyone,but is depending on our choosing Him for salvation,then that is a weak Jesus and certainly not the Jesus of the bible.He redeemed ALL that the Father gave Him and didn't lose a single one.



The way has been made for all men. Did your Salvation come via the cross, or a decision made before man's creation?


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> The way has been made for all men. Did your Salvation come via the cross, or a decision made before man's creation?



How do you define "all" in your statement above? As every person or every person who is given to Jesus by the Father?


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## hobbs27

Let's be honest. Those sheep that were given to Jesus by the Father came by a different way than you or I could. They were given by the Father before the Cross made it possible for " all men" to be saved.

 The way has been made for all men...not all men have taken of the water of life freely, but its there, and the Spirit and the Bride say come..Come take of it freely.


"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth," (1 Tim. 2:3-4).
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance," (2 Pet. 3:9).


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## j_seph

You as an individual must seek Christ. He died for our sins so that through him we may be saved. The choice is yours to accept him as your personal savior or to not.

Romans 3:22-26King James Version (KJV)

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

John 3:15 -17 “…That whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.” (KJV)
Acts 16:30-31King James Version (KJV)

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.


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## welderguy

No man ever wanted a new heart until he already had one.

We love Him because He first loved us.
Blessed is the man whom thou choosest and causest to approach unto Thee.
Ye are saved by grace through faith and that not of yourself,it is the gift of God.
All men have not faith.(2Thess.3:2)


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## Artfuldodger

Wasn't the Word with God from before the beginning?


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Let's be honest. Those sheep that were given to Jesus by the Father came by a different way than you or I could. They were given by the Father before the Cross made it possible for " all men" to be saved.
> 
> The way has been made for all men...not all men have taken of the water of life freely, but its there, and the Spirit and the Bride say come..Come take of it freely.
> 
> 
> "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth," (1 Tim. 2:3-4).
> "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance," (2 Pet. 3:9).



Hobbs,do you believe there will be some that Jesus died for that do not go to heaven?


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Hobbs,do you believe there will be some that Jesus died for that do not go to heaven?



Was Christ's sacrifice for individuals or for one body?
 I say for one body, and that body ( the Bride) and The Spirit call upon all men, " come , take of the water of life freely!) That the Bride and Groom having  consummated the marriage have children of God.... Us

Now..Was your Salvation determined before creation or at the Cross?


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Was Christ's sacrifice for individuals or for one body?
> I say for one body, and that body ( the Bride) and The Spirit call upon all men, " come , take of the water of life freely!) That the Bride and Groom having  consummated the marriage have children of God.... Us
> 
> Now..Was your Salvation determined before creation or at the Cross?



Let me see if Ive got this straight.
You're saying God's children do not represent the bride of Christ?
And that whoever this bride is,will have children that have a choice to either come to Jesus or not come.

I don't see these things in scripture.
What about the effectual call of the spirit?
What about the church being the bride?
What about the atonement of Christ upon all His elect children?


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Let me see if Ive got this straight.
> You're saying God's children do not represent the bride of Christ?
> And that whoever this bride is,will have children that have a choice to either come to Jesus or not come.
> 
> I don't see these things in scripture.
> What about the effectual call of the spirit?
> What about the church being the bride?
> What about the atonement of Christ upon all His elect children?



Baby steps.
 You equate Bride as Church, Can you equate Church as Testament or Covenant?


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Baby steps.
> You equate Bride as Church, Can you equate Church as Testament or Covenant?



Paul said the church was the bride in Eph.5


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Paul said the church was the bride in Eph.5



I agree.


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> I agree.



Who do you say makes up the church or bride of Christ then?


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## hobbs27

The old testament saints, the Apostles, and the first century Christians that were alive at his coming in 70 ad.

They were (are) the Bride. We are the children of God through the consummated marriage of Christ and His Bride.

Now..was your Salvation determined at the Cross or before the creation of the world?


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> The old testament saints, the Apostles, and the first century Christians that were alive at his coming in 70 ad.
> 
> They were (are) the Bride. We are the children of God through the consummated marriage of Christ and His Bride.
> 
> Now..was your Salvation determined at the Cross or before the creation of the world?



Do you have a text for that church body you speak of?

As for your question:
I was foreknown and predestinated before the foundation of the world.(Rom.8)Jesus is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world(Rev.).In due time Christ was manifested to atone for my sins(Rom.5).
So in God's mind,Ive had salvation for eternity.It was brought to pass,in time,at the cross and confirmed at His resurrection.

"I have loved thee with an everlasting love;therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee."


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Do you have a text for that church body you speak of?
> 
> As for your question:
> I was foreknown and predestinated before the foundation of the world.(Eph.)Jesus is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world(Rev.).In due time Christ was manifested to atone for my sins(Rom.5).
> So in God's mind,Ive had salvation for eternity.It was brought to pass,in time,at the cross and confirmed at His resurrection.



 The entire Bible is the text I use. Proper exegesis of the text brings forth the conclusion, but I would point out this in Thessalonians. Paul comforted the Thessalonians with this reminder...I'm glad they found comfort in this text that was to them.
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.*

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.*


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> The entire Bible is the text I use. Proper exegesis of the text brings forth the conclusion, but I would point out this in Thessalonians. Paul comforted the Thessalonians with this reminder...I'm glad they found comfort in this text that was to them.
> 13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.*
> 
> 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.*


*

Well,I don't see how you're tying this resurrection text in to the discussion but that's OK.

I'd really just like to ask you again what I asked earlier.You didn't give an answer.
Do you believe Jesus died for every person,making salvation a choice for each individual?*


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## gemcgrew

welderguy said:


> Are those ,that are not His sheep,able to hear ?
> Do they thirst after Him?Or hunger?
> Are they willing ?


This is key. No different than saying "He who is a bird, let him fly". It is only by the power of God.


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## Artfuldodger

He who is the Word, let him resurrect. I've asked this of my self many times "when did the Word become my salvation?"
Was it as the "Word" from eternity or on the Cross?
Did GOD knowing how it would go down make it so or was it the timing of the actual event?


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Well,I don't see how you're tying this resurrection text in to the discussion but that's OK.
> 
> I'd really just like to ask you again what I asked earlier.You didn't give an answer.
> Do you believe Jesus died for every person,making salvation a choice for each individual?



I did answer, but Ill make it more simple for you.
Jesus sacrifice made it possible for all men to be saved. His sacrifice was the blood signature to the New Covenant.. The New Covenant salvation comes to whosoever will.

So Jesus died to make a way for you and me.


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> I did answer, but Ill make it more simple for you.
> Jesus sacrifice made it possible for all men to be saved. His sacrifice was the blood signature to the New Covenant.. The New Covenant salvation comes to whosoever will.
> 
> So Jesus died to make a way for you and me.



So those men in John 10:26,whom Jesus said were not His sheep,actually were sheep before but they chose not to be instead???

Does that mean they really did hear His voice but CHOSE not to believe??

Correct me if Im wrong but I'm pretty sure EVERY time Jesus speaks,He gets the desired results.The deaf hear,the blind see,worlds are created,the dead become alive.


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## Artfuldodger

I guess Hobbs see the Bride as those before 70 AD and the children of the Bride as after 70 AD.

Hobbs, do you see the Bride as being chosen and the children as having free will?
How did those before the Cross receive salvation or did they just sleep in the ground until the cross? Either way they had salvation before the Cross. True they had to wait but they had salvation through the promise.

How do you justify Christ being with God from eternity and salvation at the timing of the Cross?


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I guess Hobbs see the Bride as those before 70 AD and the children of the Bride as after 70 AD.
> 
> Hobbs, do you see the Bride as being chosen and the children as having free will?
> How did those before the Cross receive salvation or did they just sleep in the ground until the cross? Either way they had salvation before the Cross. True they had to wait but they had salvation through the promise.
> 
> How do you justify Christ being with God from eternity and salvation at the timing of the Cross?



Exactly Art. The only predestined people are those first century Christians. As welderguy pointed out, the Church is the Bride, but Christ built His Church upon Peter. The Church is built, she as the Bride is producing children which are us.

Those before the Cross did not receive Salvation. There was a debt to be paid, the debt of sin. Keeping the law in the old covenant, atoned for the interest on that debt and kept them out of default...But Christ sacrifice on the Cross paid that debt in full, so until that debt was paid , death reigned!


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## j_seph

Good article
https://answersingenesis.org/gospel/salvation/how-were-people-saved-before-jesus-came-in-the-flesh/


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## welderguy

Hobbs, or anyone, someone just tell me why Jesus would declare those men in John 10:26 not of His sheep?
If it's as you say and folks can choose to be a sheep or not,why would He tell them that,seeing they still had time to "accept" Him?
It don't add up.


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Hobbs, or anyone, someone just tell me why Jesus would declare those men in John 10:26 not of His sheep?
> If it's as you say and folks can choose to be a sheep or not,why would He tell them that,seeing they still had time to "accept" Him?
> It don't add up.



You're staking too much doctrine on this text IMO.
 Jesus is telling the Jews that have surrounded Him in the Temple that they are not of God. I think he makes it even more clear in Matthew 23. But in John 3, Jesus tells a Pharisee what he must do to see the Kingdom of God...he must be born again. Born of the Spirit, so if these evil Pharisee that are not of God could be born of the Spirit, why can't anyone?


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## j_seph

"John 10:14-16 are three verses in particular which help explain what Jesus is saying in John 10:26.

    I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd (John 10:14-16).

    But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you (John 10:26)"


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## j_seph

To me that last verse says, to be his sheep you must believe, there for if you do not believe then NO your not his sheep. You have to make that decision to believe/accept


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## Artfuldodger

But John 10:26 says "you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep," not "you are not My sheep because you don't believe."
It's like they've already been condemned.


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## Artfuldodger

When people talk about repenting, is that believing that Jesus died for your sins? Is that what is needed to become one of his sheep?
Repent or change your mind. Change your mind that "works" can't save you. Change your mind in believing that you will never live a righteous life. Realize that none are good. Repent and believe that Jesus died because you never could live good enough to save yourself.


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## welderguy

j_seph said:


> To me that last verse says, to be his sheep you must believe, there for if you do not believe then NO your not his sheep. You have to make that decision to believe/accept



So are you saying belief is the cause, not the result of salvation?

To me,that would make a "work" of man the cause of salvation instead of grace...and contradict scripture:

Eph.2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Also,we know from 2Thess.3:2 that not all men have been given the gift of faith.


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## j_seph

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welderguy said:


> So are you saying belief is the cause, not the result of salvation?
> 
> To me,that would make a "work" of man the cause of salvation instead of grace...and contradict scripture:
> 
> Eph.2:8-9
> 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
> 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
> 
> Also,we know from 2Thess.3:2 that not all men have been given the gift of faith.


 
  Jesus died for our sins, A person who does not believe he is a sinner cannot be saved. If you don’t believe you are a sinner then you have nothing to be forgiven for, if there is nothing to be forgiven for then Jesus didn’t do anything for me. If he didn’t do anything for me then I am not believing him for salvation. So it starts with belief that you are a sinner, and that he died for your sins. You are expected to trust in God, love him, and live for him. Belief you must have to start with, 
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
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## hobbs27

Romans 13:11 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. 12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand.

If the New Covenant was established before Paul wrote this in Romans...what Salvation was about to come to them?

If there was Salvation in the old covenant.. What different kind  of Salvation were they about to receive?


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## Artfuldodger

j_seph said:


> Jesus died for our sins, A person who does not believe he is a sinner cannot be saved. If you don’t believe you are a sinner then you have nothing to be forgiven for, if there is nothing to be forgiven for then Jesus didn’t do anything for me. If he didn’t do anything for me then I am not believing him for salvation. So it starts with belief that you are a sinner, and that he died for your sins. You are expected to trust in God, love him, and live for him. Belief you must have to start with,
> Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.



What about the person who knows he is a sinner but believes he can save himself. The person who hasn't repented from that belief?
Who makes a person repent from that belief?
God or that person?


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Romans 13:11 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. 12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand.
> 
> If the New Covenant was established before Paul wrote this in Romans...what Salvation was about to come to them?
> 
> If there was Salvation in the old covenant.. What different kind  of Salvation were they about to receive?



Interesting, they are believers yet their salvation is future but near.


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## welderguy

Someone explain why 2 Thess.3:2 says "all men have not faith".
I ask because, according to Eph.2:8, faith comes from God,and it is through this faith that we are saved.

For those that believe all men have the possibility to be saved, how can the ones who have not been given faith?


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Someone explain why 2 Thess.3:2 says "all men have not faith".
> I ask because, according to Eph.2:8, faith comes from God,and it is through this faith that we are saved.
> 
> For those that believe all men have the possibility to be saved, how can the ones who have not been given faith?



Not all men are of the faith today and evil persists. The verse is an observation of the present danger they were facing and why they begged for prayers. 
 This second verse shows the need for their hope in the first..That the word would go out unto men and it would convert those evil men to be faithful men( as was those Paul was writing).
 So when you look at verse 1and 2 together in context , I personally think that alone destroys your notion that man is either predestined with faith or none.


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Not all men are of the faith today and evil persists. The verse is an observation of the present danger they were facing and why they begged for prayers.
> This second verse shows the need for their hope in the first..That the word would go out unto men and it would convert those evil men to be faithful men( as was those Paul was writing).
> So when you look at verse 1and 2 together in context , I personally think that alone destroys your notion that man is either predestined with faith or none.



You are correct concerning the effects of not having faith.But,faith is essential for salvation.And it's given by God...but not to all.

Have a look at John 8. Jesus makes a distinction between two groups of people.One group believed(vs.31) and the other did not(vs.44).

The group that did not believe,He said were of their father the devil.

My question to you is this:
 Did their unbelief make them children of the devil?,.....or was their unbelief a result of already being children of the devil?

I say the latter.


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> You are correct concerning the effects of not having faith.But,faith is essential for salvation.And it's given by God...but not to all.
> 
> Have a look at John 8. Jesus makes a distinction between two groups of people.One group believed(vs.31) and the other did not(vs.44).
> 
> The group that did not believe,He said were of their father the devil.
> 
> My question to you is this:
> Did their unbelief make them children of the devil?,.....or was their unbelief a result of already being children of the devil?
> 
> I say the latter.



John 8 shows the unbelief of the scribes and Pharisee. Jesus calls them out continuously in His earthly physical ministry. See Matthew 23.
 With that said, all hope was not lost for them. Nicodemus was told he too could see the Kingdom of God, he must be born of the Spirit.

Another Pharisee we learn about that gained the faith was Saul. He was no doubt an equal child of the devil as those that persecuted Jesus in the Temple, as he was there at the stoning of Stephen, and went through the cities persecuting the infant Christian churches.....Yet a change was made in him and he became Paul.
So even a child of the devil can be born again, and become a child of God ( Spirit).
Therefore my answer to your question is that I don't accept the premise.


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> John 8 shows the unbelief of the scribes and Pharisee. Jesus calls them out continuously in His earthly physical ministry. See Matthew 23.
> With that said, all hope was not lost for them. Nicodemus was told he too could see the Kingdom of God, he must be born of the Spirit.
> 
> Another Pharisee we learn about that gained the faith was Saul. He was no doubt an equal child of the devil as those that persecuted Jesus in the Temple, as he was there at the stoning of Stephen, and went through the cities persecuting the infant Christian churches.....Yet a change was made in him and he became Paul.
> So even a child of the devil can be born again, and become a child of God ( Spirit).
> Therefore my answer to your question is that I don't accept the premise.



I think this only confirms what I'm saying.These two examples show people who were not seeking Jesus as their saviour.But then,miraculously,something within them changed.It was the call of the Holy Spirit.The anointing spoken of in 1 John 2:27:

"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."


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## welderguy

There are two groups of people described in Romans 9.Those fitted to destruction and those prepared unto glory.He had a purpose for each in mind when he created them of the"same lump of clay".One is to show His wrath and one is to show His mercy.Folks today want to ignore that God has wrath,they want to paint a false picture of a God who loves everyone.That is simply and undeniably not true.Jesus' blood was shed for a specific number of people.

Rom.9:21-23

 "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,"


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## hobbs27

Funny, you read Romans 9 as two groups of individuals. I read it as two Covenants coexisting for a short time. " the older shall serve the younger". To me Romans 9 is about Israel, and her rejection of God.


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Funny, you read Romans 9 as two groups of individuals. I read it as two Covenants coexisting for a short time. " the older shall serve the younger". To me Romans 9 is about Israel, and her rejection of God.



It's much more than just about two covenants.If it was strictly about the covenants,it would have to say ALL of Israel were loved and saved by God.
But,Paul makes the point that it's not about a general covenant,but about a specific election within that covenant.He does this in vs.6 when he says "they are not all Israel who are of Israel".

My point is,just because a person was within the covenant given to the nation,it doesn't mean they were saved.It is according to election.

vs.11
 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God ACCORDING TO ELECTION might stand, not of works, but OF HIM THAT CALLETH).


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> It's much more than just about two covenants.If it was strictly about the covenants,it would have to say ALL of Israel were loved and saved by God.



You mean like this Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: ?


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> You mean like this Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: ?



Yes.
The Israel in this verse is the spiritual elect people of God,not the physical nation Israel.

It's the first one mentioned in this verse-"they are not all Israel(spiritual) who are of Israel(physical).


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Yes.
> The Israel in this verse is the spiritual elect people of God,not the physical nation Israel.
> 
> It's the first one mentioned in this verse-"they are not all Israel(spiritual) who are of Israel(physical).


.And the physical Nation Israel , ie flesh, ie Old Covenant never had or offered Spiritual Salvation.

For those born into Israel..they had to be born again of the Spirit, ie New Covenant. Which was made possible by the sacrifice of the Lamb of God .

 I guess where we differ the most is you think some men are born predetermined to never be saved. I believe all will be called, I believe the way has been made for all men, yet some will turn away and reject God just as Israel rejected God in Romans 9.


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> .And the physical Nation Israel , ie flesh, ie Old Covenant never had or offered Spiritual Salvation.
> 
> For those born into Israel..they had to be born again of the Spirit, ie New Covenant. Which was made possible by the sacrifice of the Lamb of God .
> 
> I guess where we differ the most is you think some men are born predetermined to never be saved. I believe all will be called, I believe the way has been made for all men, yet some will turn away and reject God just as Israel rejected God in Romans 9.



I don't believe there was one single drop of Jesus' blood that was shed in vain.If,like you believe,there is even one lost,then the atonement was a failure.
But it wasn't.He redeemed all that the Father gave Him and lost not one single one.He accomplished exactly what He came to do.He was victorious.
And salvation is not dependant upon man for any of it.If it were,no one would be saved.It's all of sovereign grace.

John 6:37-39

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> I don't believe there was one single drop of Jesus' blood that was shed in vain.If,like you believe,there is even one lost,then the atonement was a failure.
> But it wasn't.He redeemed all that the Father gave Him and lost not one single one.He accomplished exactly what He came to do.He was victorious.
> And salvation is not dependant upon man for any of it.If it were,no one would be saved.It's all of sovereign grace.
> 
> John 6:37-39
> 
> 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
> 
> 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
> 
> 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.



There's always been men out of Gods family. Israel stood as Gods Bride in the Old Covenant and produced children Jews and Gentiles alike, but more were outside her gates than inside...same as today as the New Covenant established church stands as the Bride of Christ, its producing children, yet many choose to stay outside her gates.

The blood is shed that once and for all sin could be atoned, the Bride and the Spirit call out to men...Come and take of this freely. Some do , some don't to their own peril.


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> There's always been men out of Gods family. Israel stood as Gods Bride in the Old Covenant and produced children Jews and Gentiles alike, but more were outside her gates than inside...same as today as the New Covenant established church stands as the Bride of Christ, its producing children, yet many choose to stay outside her gates.
> 
> The blood is shed that once and for all sin could be atoned, the Bride and the Spirit call out to men...Come and take of this freely. Some do , some don't to their own peril.




How could a perfect,holy,righteous God,who cannot lie and who changes not,that has said to His people "I have loved you with an everlasting love,therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee"....how could He let even one of His children perish into everlasting separation from His presence?
There's no way because John 17:

9 "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."....

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> How could a perfect,holy,righteous God,who cannot lie and who changes not,that has said to His people "I have loved you with an everlasting love,therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee"....how could He let even one of His children perish into everlasting separation from His presence?
> There's no way because John 17:
> 
> 9 "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."....
> 
> 24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.



If they are not saved, they are not His. I agree He doesn't turn away from His people. For those that are of the world, to the world they will remain, but those of God will be with God.


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> If they are not saved, they are not His. I agree He doesn't turn away from His people. For those that are of the world, to the world they will remain, but those of God will be with God.



So,it's not a universal atonement then....agree?


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> So,it's not a universal atonement then....agree?



Agree, I've never hinted to universalism.


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## Artfuldodger

John 17:24
"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

What does "I want those you have given me" mean?
This verse and few others make reference to God giving Jesus his sheep. I'm just curious how others view what this means.

What about all of the people that Jesus died for that aren't lead to Jesus by God? Won't they die an everlasting death? 

If a lost soul must be lead to Jesus by God, what is the purpose of evangelism? Why can't God lead a lost sinner to Jesus in a foreign land without making that person's fate left in the hands of man?

I've heard even election believers say the purpose of evangelism is because we don't know who God will call to Jesus so we must tell everyone. Doesn't that put man back into the equation?


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> I believe all will be called, I believe the way has been made for all men,



When you said this.


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> I did answer, but Ill make it more simple for you.
> Jesus sacrifice made it possible for all men to be saved.



And when you said this.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Agree, I've never hinted to universalism.



Why not? Welderguy has already asked, how could Jesus die for people that God doesn't have the power to deliver?

Imagine people all over the world that die every day not ever hearing the Word of God. Was their destiny dependent on man? 

Can God give Jesus lost souls that have never heard the Gospel? Without evangelism?

If God doesn't give Jesus every human soul, then how can we truly say that Jesus died for every human soul?

If someone can't find Jesus without God's calling then election must be true.


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## hobbs27

Welder & Art. 
 I never said all will be saved, but Jesus made it possible that all could be saved.
 In other words Christ' sacrifice reigned in the New Covenant in which the gift is eternal life.

 All that enter the covenant are saved, always will be saved, they are born from above!

 Those that don't enter are outside the gates. They are not in Covenant, they will perish if they do not enter into Covenant. We all started outside the gates.


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## Artfuldodger

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

2 Timothy 1:9
He has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

Colossians 1:17-20
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything He might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through His blood, shed on the cross.

If God calls all;

Acts 2:39
"For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

Romans 10:18
But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."

When God calls all, is that a "general" calling or an "effectual" calling?


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Welder & Art.
> I never said all will be saved, but Jesus made it possible that all could be saved.
> In other words Christ' sacrifice reigned in the New Covenant in which the gift is eternal life.
> 
> All that enter the covenant are saved, always will be saved, they are born from above!
> 
> Those that don't enter are outside the gates. They are not in Covenant, they will perish if they do not enter into Covenant. We all started outside the gates.



What about the lost souls that Jesus made it possible to be saved that God doesn't draw?
I can understand that after God draws them, they use freewill to refuse salvation, but what about the lost souls God doesn't draw? I'm not saying that I believe God's grace is irresistible, but do you believe all are called?

If God doesn't "draw"every lost soul then Jesus didn't die for every lost soul.


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## Artfuldodger

Romans 1:20-23
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

This is said to be a "general" calling yet they are without excuse.
This is said to be a "general" calling yet they "exchanged, changed, or traded the worship of God for Pagan idols.

If God calls "all" what kind of calling is it? Who was this group that God had called? Had Jesus died for their sins? Were they lead to Jesus by God? Were they called to Jesus by God? Were they drawn to Jesus by God? Does God kinda lead people to Jesus halfway with a general calling only to elect half of this group with an effectual calling?
Why were they all without excuse if only some will be effectually called?

What does it mean to be called to Jesus by God and who does God call? Why would God call everyone with a general calling and only pick some out of this group with an effectual calling? 
When we read scriptures about God calling souls to Jesus, how do we know which is a general calling and which is an effectual calling?

Why would God call "all" and only "elect" some? If he in fact does this, why are "all" without excuse?


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Welder & Art.
> I never said all will be saved, but Jesus made it possible that all could be saved.



Everybody knows that all will not be saved,simply because He says there will be goats that must depart,and then we also have the parable of the rich man and Lazerus.That's a no-brainer.

But Jesus did not die(make atonement) for everybody.If He had,there would be no goats,and the rich man's tongue wouldn't need cooling.Why? Because Jesus DID NOT LOSE any that He died for(atoned for).


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## Artfuldodger

1 Corinthians 1:23-24
23 So when we preach that Christ was crucified, the Jews are offended and the Gentiles say it's all nonsense.
24 But to those called by God to salvation, both Jews and Gentiles, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.


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## Artfuldodger

Job 42:2
"I know that you can do all things; no purpose of yours can be thwarted.

Universalism or Election?


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## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> Everybody knows that all will not be saved,simply because He says there will be goats that must depart,and then we also have the parable of the rich man and Lazerus.That's a no-brainer.
> 
> But Jesus did not die(make atonement) for everybody.If He had,there would be no goats,and the rich man's tongue wouldn't need cooling.Why? Because Jesus DID NOT LOSE any that He died for(atoned for).



Then why were "all" called with a general calling if only some will be effectually called? Why were those drawn with a general calling "without excuse?" How were they able to exchange the glory of God for Pagan idols?

Calling "all" but electing a few don't seem right to my human brain.


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## gemcgrew

welderguy said:


> Everybody knows that all will not be saved,simply because He says there will be goats that must depart,and then we also have the parable of the rich man and Lazerus.That's a no-brainer.
> 
> But Jesus did not die(make atonement) for everybody.If He had,there would be no goats,and the rich man's tongue wouldn't need cooling.Why? Because Jesus DID NOT LOSE any that He died for(atoned for).


If Jesus lost just one, then none can inhabit the kingdom in heaven. Before the foundation of the world, God prepared a place for ALL of the blessed of the Father. If just one is not there, none can be.


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## welderguy

gemcgrew said:


> If Jesus lost just one, then none can inhabit the kingdom in heaven. Before the foundation of the world, God prepared a place for ALL of the blessed of the Father. If just one is not there, none can be.



Amen Gem.
And,if Jesus lost one,His bride would be missing a body part.
Then He would not be able to "present her to Himself without spot or wrinkle".


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## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> Welder & Art.
> I never said all will be saved, but Jesus made it possible that all could be saved.


Did Jesus make it possible for those that Peter said "were made to be taken and destroyed"?


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## hobbs27

gemcgrew said:


> Did Jesus make it possible for those that Peter said "were made to be taken and destroyed"?



Yes. No man is so filthy that Christ' blood cannot wash.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> What about the lost souls that Jesus made it possible to be saved that God doesn't draw?
> I can understand that after God draws them, they use freewill to refuse salvation, but what about the lost souls God doesn't draw? I'm not saying that I believe God's grace is irresistible, but do you believe all are called?
> 
> If God doesn't "draw"every lost soul then Jesus didn't die for every lost soul.



 I would hope all are called, but I understand there have been some impossible situations for this. 
Example would be Native Americans , generations of them living and dying without knowledge of Christ. Since I no longer find evidence of ECT in sripture it's a little easier to accept.


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> I would hope all are called, but I understand there have been some impossible situations for this.
> Example would be Native Americans , generations of them living and dying without knowledge of Christ. Since I no longer find evidence of ECT in sripture it's a little easier to accept.



The call is from the Holy Spirit,not man.All God's children are reachable,even native Americans,even unborn babes,even comatose patients,mentally ill patients...it does not matter for the Spirit.Every one is "dead" anyway...until the Spirit quickens them.


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> The call is from the Holy Spirit,not man.All God's children are reachable,even native Americans,even unborn babes,even comatose patients,mentally ill patients...it does not matter for the Spirit.Every one is "dead" anyway...until the Spirit quickens them.




Thats an opinion, maybe you're right, but you don't know, since no Scripture covers unborn children and comotose patients being drawn by the Spirit.


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Thats an opinion, maybe you're right, but you don't know, since no Scripture covers unborn children and comotose patients being drawn by the Spirit.



" The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

John the baptist ?


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## Artfuldodger

I've heard it said that God only calls those that he knows will answer but that's pretty close to predestination. If that is true then God doesn't call everyone. He uses his foreknowledge to call his Sheep.

Maybe he didn't elect them but he knew who his sheep was. Not exactly election but not exactly free will either. It's more like predestination by fate. 
No choice for the one's God foreknew wouldn't answer. It's not like they can change their mind now.

If God only calls those he foreknew would answer, then can God intervene later and call someone who he foreknew wouldn't answer?  Is God basing his actions/plan on man's actions?  If so God would have already known we would have changed our actions and that he would need to intervene.


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## Artfuldodger

Matthew 22:14
"For many are called, but few are chosen."

I don't understand why God calls many but only chooses a few. Why invite everyone with a general calling but only choose a few with an effectual calling?

What criteria does God use to call or draw us to Christ, the few that is? If it's not based on anything we do then what is it based on? I know it's God's grace but why not everyone? 
Why invite everyone? Why is everyone without excuse when they never have a chance to be chosen?
I'm not a believer of ECT either but it doesn't make it easier for me thinking some might get invited but not chosen. They still miss out on eternal life. I would rather God call everyone. He would have to do this without man as we are too slow. We've already missed many.


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## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> Matthew 22:14
> "For many are called, but few are chosen."
> 
> I don't understand why God calls many but only chooses a few. Why invite everyone with a general calling but only choose a few with an effectual calling?
> 
> What criteria does God use to call or draw us to Christ, the few that is? If it's not based on anything we do then what is it based on? I know it's God's grace but why not everyone?
> Why invite everyone? Why is everyone without excuse when they never have a chance to be chosen?
> I'm not a believer of ECT either but it doesn't make it easier for me thinking some might get invited but not chosen. They still miss out on eternal life. I would rather God call everyone. He would have to do this without man as we are too slow. We've already missed many.



I believe this parable is speaking of the gospel call,not to be confused with the effectual call of the Spirit.This gospel call is of man.We,as disciples, are told to go out into the world and preach and teach and witness to others(let our light shine).That's evangelism.We don't know who is elect and who's not,but that's not our job to judge.There are many who will reject the gospel.But some will not reject it(those that have faith mixed with it. Heb.4:2).

But notice the one in the parable who tried to come in without a wedding garment on.He is non-elect.These will try to creep in by some other way,(instead of through Jesus John10:1).The King recognizes those and deals with them.


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## jmharris23

Joseph started a good thread with a great intention... of pointing others toward Christ and causing others to think about their life and the end of it.

Why does every single thread in here have to turn into a theological argument? 

Maybe we should reconsider the way we approach each other in here?


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## gemcgrew

gemcgrew said:


> Did Jesus make it possible for those that Peter said "were made to be taken and destroyed"?





hobbs27 said:


> Yes.


Yet Peter and Jesus say that they will utterly perish. You say that it is possible that they will live. Who are we to believe?


hobbs27 said:


> No man is so filthy that Christ' blood cannot wash.


Even the filthy man that was not given to Christ by the Father?


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## gemcgrew

jmharris23 said:


> Joseph started a good thread with a great intention... of pointing others toward Christ and causing others to think about their life and the end of it.
> 
> Why does every single thread in here have to turn into a theological argument?
> 
> Maybe we should reconsider the way we approach each other in here?


Are we to ignore the problems in the OP because jmharris opposes theological arguments?


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## jmharris23

gemcgrew said:


> Are we to ignore the problems in the OP because jmharris opposes theological arguments?



No  

I actually don't oppose theological arguments at all. I just oppose them starting in a thread that a fellow believer started with the obviously good intention of pointing someone toward being thoughtful about their life and their spiritual condition.


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## welderguy

jmharris23 said:


> No
> 
> I actually don't oppose theological arguments at all. I just oppose them starting in a thread that a fellow believer started with the obviously good intention of pointing someone toward being thoughtful about their life and their spiritual condition.



Point taken Jm.
I apologize to everyone,especially J_seph.It was me that got us off track.
I guess I get a little passionate about what I believe sometimes and don't know when to reign it in.Please forgive.


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## j_seph

jmharris23 said:


> Joseph started a good thread with a great intention... of pointing others toward Christ and causing others to think about their life and the end of it.
> 
> Why does every single thread in here have to turn into a theological argument?
> 
> Maybe we should reconsider the way we approach each other in here?





welderguy said:


> Point taken Jm.
> I apologize to everyone,especially J_seph.It was me that got us off track.
> I guess I get a little passionate about what I believe sometimes and don't know when to reign it in.Please forgive.


Thank you both, funny thing is used to I'd probably get a little raveled up over something like this. I am new to learning my bible, new to being regular in church. I strayed away a long time but through God and prayer and an awesome God fearing fiance' I am getting back on track. This post is as Mr. Harris stated because we take to much thought in this material world and none of the world beyond this temporary one. I will be the first to say thanks for all your inputs. It led me to dig and search for the word to strengthen me and put a little more knowledge in my heart and brain. I know we can all have our own opinions on anything. I cannot tell you that your wrong in how you interpret scripture but I can share my opinion and what it means to me in how I read it. Sometimes I believe too many try to analyze the word rather than asking God to show you the word. I am far from a scholar on any of it and pray that I continue to grow in Christ and learn till the day I head to that glory land. God Bless you all


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## centerpin fan

jmharris23 said:


> Joseph started a good thread with a great intention... of pointing others toward Christ and causing others to think about their life and the end of it.
> 
> Why does every single thread in here have to turn into a theological argument?




I was gonna post, "Please God, make it stop."

You beat me to the punch, though.

Thank you.


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## Artfuldodger

The more I learn, the more I don't know. I do yearn for better understanding. 
Maybe becoming religious is totally different than becoming spiritual. I hope to do better in that respect.

That being said the discussion was tied to the OP's stated verse;

James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

or;

Come close to God, and God will come close to you. Wash your hands, you sinners; purify your hearts, for your loyalty is divided between God and the world.


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## gemcgrew

welderguy said:


> It was me that got us off track.


It was you that pulled it out of the ditch.


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## welderguy

gemcgrew said:


> It was you that pulled it out of the ditch.



You 're too kind, Gem.


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## welderguy

centerpin fan said:


> I was gonna post, "Please God, make it stop."



I bet the Roman soldier that was chained to Paul thought the same thing.

Maybe I should have posted a video clip.


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## centerpin fan

welderguy said:


> Maybe I should have posted a video clip.



Do not try this at home.  Leave it to the professionals.


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## jmharris23

Artfuldodger said:


> The more I learn, the more I don't know. I do yearn for better understanding.
> Maybe becoming religious is totally different than becoming spiritual. I hope to do better in that respect.
> 
> That being said the discussion was tied to the OP's stated verse;
> 
> James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
> 
> or;
> 
> Come close to God, and God will come close to you. Wash your hands, you sinners; purify your hearts, for your loyalty is divided between God and the world.




Tied to the verse maybe, but definitely not tired to the intention of the man's thread. I appreciate your desire to learn and you're welcome to start another thread about this very verse and topic.


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