# Rolling Plains Research Ranch Bird hunting



## 28gage (Mar 5, 2017)

Rolling plains Research Ranch video (Quail coalition).  Check out the covey sizes this season.  Great birds in flight work.


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## mecicon (Mar 6, 2017)

Why don't the dogs stay steady?


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## GLS (Mar 6, 2017)

Not everyone considers "steady to wing and shot" necessary or even desirable especially hunting wild birds which on a covey rise mostly all get up at once.  "Steady to wing and shot" can be desirable on released birds, however, as the birds don't get up all at once and a dog charging through after the initial volley can move birds before the hunters are ready for the late flushers.  Some wild bird hunters want the dogs out after flush to retrieve downed birds before they can move out of the area if wounded.  Another reason "steady to wing and shot" is useful on preserves is because of dog safety issues; it minimizes a dog getting shot running towards the flushing, often low and slow, birds.  This is especially true where inexperienced hunters are involved. A steady dog is stylish, but neither of mine are steady, and it's because I didn't see the need because they rarely hunt released birds.   I had Abby steady early on, but didn't enforce it, and she no longer is.  I didn't bother training Willa to be steady.  Gil


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## Coach K (Mar 6, 2017)

_"Why don't the dogs stay steady?"_

In some of the later clips there were some dogs running up the coveys.  I believe they probably had a couple young pups that were hunting their first year.  Many top notch trainers believe the 1st year in a pointing dogs life should be about building the fire and passion to get out and find birds.  So, the first year pup can do no wrong.  The pup is allowed to flush the birds, chase and have fun.  This will set you up to have a pup that is a "bird crazy" finding machine.  On the other hand, so many people (usually rookies that have little experience, plus have read nothing about bringing a pointing dog along) extinguish that pup's desire by trying to rush a pups training too fast.  

In any case, when the pup has reached the age where I expect it to hold point (like the dogs in the early clips), I still only expect my dogs to hold the single or covey until I flush them.  At that flush I expect the dogs to break for the retrieve.  First, the safety concerns with wild bird flushes are negligible and it gets the dogs on cripples faster.  Second, it lets your dogs self relocate on running birds before the flush.  And finally, it lets the dogs have fun, thus saving me (and the dogs) the tedious countless hours needed to keep and maintain pointing dogs steady to shot/fall.

In my training I do the exact same thing with dogs in their first season with just one exception.  When a pup busts a covey or single I simply don't shoot a bird to reward him.  That way the pup still understands that the only way he gets a bird in his mouth, is if he lets me flush it.  And the pup is still having just as much fun finding birds.  Pup only getting a bird in his mouth if he lets me flush, is something I had begun establishing with pup at his earliest training with a bird wing on a string.

Make no mistake, though, even with wild birds, a dog flushing its own birds like in the later clips would not be acceptable for pointing dogs.


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## 28gage (Mar 6, 2017)

mecicon said:


> Why don't the dogs stay steady?



Wild birds don't have to be kicked up, wild birds run or get up early way out front of the dogs.  Because of this the vast majority of wild bird hunters ask their dogs to relocate on their own to pin runners.  And because of wild birds acting in very unpredictable ways hunters hurry past their dogs to flush and get some kind of shot.  This alone puts pressure on dogs, especially young dogs to move up. Now there are folks who hunt trial dogs and others that want there dogs to remain steady but they are in a very small minority of bird hunters.  West Texas birds a willy and a good wild bird dog is also.


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## GLS (Mar 6, 2017)

My dogs also are "steady" until I flush them. Honoring each other's points and "whoa" are what I demand as well as coming to me on whistle or voice command. They aren't perfect but are better than I am at my job during the hunt. Gil


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## Coach K (Mar 6, 2017)

The last 1/2 of January, I had the good fortune of hunting west TX this year.  It was the best quail hunting I have ever experienced.  In fact the ranch I hunted and guided on had over 10,000 quail harvested on over 28,000 acres.  Because it was so late in the season, the quail were running (whole coveys) like scaled quail and many times even flushing out of gun range, from the next ridge over, etc.  I still expected my experienced dogs to stay within touch of running birds without flushing them.  When I departed TX at the end of the month, we were still seeing coveys in excess of 20+ birds and 2-3 coveys/hr.  I have so much go pro video, I haven't even begun to look at it.

One thing that I noticed very quickly was; the nonexistence of fire ants (none whatsoever), the lack of tall trees to hide hawks and the expanse of millions of acres without subdivisions or urban sprawl to take away from great quail habitat.  

It truly was an experience.


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## 28gage (Mar 6, 2017)

Coach, those numbers sound like the Matador WMA is that where you hunted?


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## Jetjockey (Mar 6, 2017)

I hunt my trial dogs and require them to be 100% steady.  In the circles I run in, that's not abnormal as most of us hunt, trial, and require our dogs to remain broke.  While every situation is different, I believe you will shoot and find more birds over a fully broke dog, but I didn't always feel that way.  I used to believe I wanted a dog right under the birds when they hit the ground, but years of hunting in the snow changed that.  I found that birds are like bow hunted deer.  If you pressure them they will keep running and running.  If you give them a second, they will typically run directly to the heaviest cover and hold.  I came about that decision when hunting in the snow when you can see exactly what the bird is doing.  When we gave birds the time to hole up, they would run 20-30 yards and stop.  You could easily follow their tracks and didn't even need a dog to recover them.  When the birds were pressured, you could follow the tracks forever if the bird wasn't hit hard.  An injured bird always wants to stop though.  Give them a second to calm down, and they won't run very far....  I've also had to kick up wild birds when it's cold, and especially when there's snow on the ground.  Snow will stop them, and in the last year I could have stepped on wild pheasants and bob whites while hunting.  Living in CO and hunting CO, NE, KS, and SD, you never miss an opportunity to hunt in the snow, which happens often later in the season. .  I can't say the same about Blues however,  which are my favorite birds to hunt.   In the snow, big coveys of Blues will slow some, but a slow blue covey will still run twice as much as any bob whites, they often don't fly very high, and that's why I want a fully broke dog.  Even in the video above some of those quail were really low.  At the end of the day though, there is no right answer.    If I hunted released birds, I'd require a broke dog, but since I only hunt wild birds, I understand the argument from both sides, because I've been on both sides of the argument.


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## 28gage (Mar 6, 2017)

"shoot and find more birds over a fully broke dog"  love for you to explain that one too me.  Always thought more birds were found by a dog with a great nose and one that hunted the right places.  Not sure how being broke helps in either way.


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## Jetjockey (Mar 6, 2017)

28gage said:


> "shoot and find more birds over a fully broke dog"  love for you to explain that one too me.  Always thought more birds were found by a dog with a great nose and one that hunted the right places.  Not sure how being broke helps in either way.



Correct, but all things being equal......  A lousy dog is a lousy dog, you can't fix that.   I can't tell you how many times Ive had to hold a shot or keep from double tapping a running bird because a dog was in the way.  You don't have that issue with fully broke dogs.  I find more shot birds with a fully broke dog than I did when I used to allow dogs to break, and they pushed runners.  I changed my ways and I lose very few birds now days.


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## 28gage (Mar 6, 2017)

Well we will have to agree to disagree.  When a dog (experienced quail dog) breaks with the shot or flush he is on the down bird faster and in my experience finds more down birds (and strong nose again helps here)whether by scenting or marking fall.  Not sure how you would shoot more over a broke dog, I would say you shoot more over a good hard hunting strong nosed animal.


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## Jetjockey (Mar 6, 2017)

Again, all things being equal.  You can shoot more birds over a broke dog because you don't ever have to hold the shot for a low bird.  Broke dogs also won't bust a single holding bird that didn't flush on the original rise while your trying to reload, or bust a covey when a single flushed and the covey held...  I used to think a dog under the birds would recover more birds, until I started hunting with broke dogs in the snow and realized injured birds really don't run very far.  Those birds you think ran off and weren't recovered, often did so because they were being pushed.   Those same birds will hole up if you give them a chance and don't push them.  Hunting in fresh snow is what proved it to me, because you can see exactly what the birds are doing and where they are going after you knock them down.


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## 28gage (Mar 6, 2017)

Hunting in snow not a concern in west TX. but skittish and running birds are.


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## Jetjockey (Mar 6, 2017)

Which is no different than anywhere else.  Try giving the birds a little time after you knock them down.  I bet you will be surprised how few birds you lose, and how little they actually run after falling.  I know I was.


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## 28gage (Mar 6, 2017)

Bird hunting is like a great tune, it has a rhythm, and part of that is not pausing for a while to let the dead birds settle down.  And my 50 years of bird hunting has shown me that birds that don't fall dead usually start to run right after you get to them or bend over to pick them up.


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## Jetjockey (Mar 6, 2017)

But they don't run far, unless they are being pushed, just like bow hunted deer.  Injured birds don't run far, they run for cover.  Let them find the cover before you push them and you will lose very, very few birds.


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## 28gage (Mar 6, 2017)

If pushing wounded birds is the best reason for using fully broke dogs it's pretty weak sauce.  If it's aesthetics of watching a broke dog hunt then I might agree as I enjoy watching my handler work his trial dogs.  The main problem of running dogs steady to wing and shot is it forces you to only hunt with others that use broke dogs or the other dogs are running by your dogs and pushing birds or worse.  I thought a few posts back we were going to agree to disagree?


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## mecicon (Mar 6, 2017)

Where did I mention "steady to wing and shot"? If you're going to use quotation marks, quote me accurately. 



GLS said:


> Not everyone considers "steady to wing and shot" necessary or even desirable especially hunting wild birds which on a covey rise mostly all get up at once.



Been there done that, I'm well aware of wild birds. I've hunted wild birds with my dogs in GA, FL, WI, NH, SD, KY, MI.



GLS said:


> "Steady to wing and shot" can be desirable on released birds, however, as the birds don't get up all at once and a dog charging through after the initial volley can move birds before the hunters are ready for the late flushers.  Some wild bird hunters want the dogs out after flush to retrieve downed birds before they can move out of the area if wounded.



That is why my dogs use their nose...and with hand signals relocate.  

By the way which is it "mostly all get up at once" or "ready for the late flushers"? While I understand mostly is not an absolute you are telling me the reason not to be steady is two different reasons. 



GLS said:


> Another reason "steady to wing and shot" is useful on preserves is because of dog safety issues; it minimizes a dog getting shot running towards the flushing, often low and slow, birds.



Most (over 95%) of my hunting is NOT on pen-raised chickens.  



GLS said:


> This is especially true where inexperienced hunters are involved. A steady dog is stylish, but neither of mine are steady, and it's because I didn't see the need because they rarely hunt released birds.



Yeah, me neither.

Let me get this straight you "rarely hunt released birds" (probably the same proportion as me) so your dog doesn't need to be "stylish"?



GLS said:


> I had Abby steady early on, but didn't enforce it, and she no longer is.  I didn't bother training Willa to be steady.  Gil



The dogs in the video didn't look like flushing spaniels to me.


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## GLS (Mar 7, 2017)

Thank you for putting me in my place.  If my confusing “steady” to “steady to wing and shot” was disrespectful to you,  it was out of my ignorance as I don’t run in birddog circles like you must nor do I hunt nationally as you said you do.  I don’t field trial and only know two men that I consider longstanding friends that have birddogs.  My hunting is 100% local and my dogs don’t summer in SoDak, NoDak, Idaho, Montana or Wyoming.  They probably wish they could.  I wish I could. The most experienced dog owner-friend that I’ve known for a half century uses the terms “steady to wing and shot”,  “staunch” and “holds point”.  I could be wrong, but I think he uses “staunch” and “holds point” interchangeably for what you define as “steady” with the opposite being “busts birds” according to my friend.  The other man isn’t too particular in terminology, but his dogs are fine to hunt with.  I mistakenly read too much into your six word question.  What I read was a backhanded criticism of another man’s dogs and lack of experience.   I might have been 50% correct.    I apologize for not recognizing your vast experience and knowledge.  I consider dogs that have long tails and hold to “wing and shot” more stylish than those with bobbed tails that don’t “hold steady wing and shot”.   Maybe the better term would be “finished”, but I’ll stick with “stylish”.  But that’s just me and I have two bobbed-tailed dogs who don’t hold “steady to wing and shot”.  I still love my dogs and have hopes of many more years with them in the woods and fields.  From what I can tell, if dogs have such feelings, they feel the same way.


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## coveyrise (Mar 9, 2017)

Hey 28gage. Have you ever hunted behind one of Dales Britters? ( BrittanyxSetter crosses.)


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## 28gage (Mar 9, 2017)

I have seen them several times when out at the ranch and 4 or 5 years ago I participated in his quail survey at the ranch and saw two of them on the ground but didn't get to hunt behind them.  The two I saw looked like they were mostly setter.  They are trained to ride on his quail wagon high seat and leap off on command. I've always wanted to hunt with him but he has a bunch of hunting buddies from different organizations and I'm not on the list.  He hunts with the rancher on the ranch I hunt so hope springs eternal.


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## GLS (Mar 10, 2017)

Dr. Rollins is part quail:


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## Northwestretriever (Mar 10, 2017)

Great video!


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## Killinstuff (Mar 11, 2017)

Yep, hunting season must be over to get such a debate on how fellas like their dogs to work.  I like mine to break on the shot and steady to flush.  If they bump a bird (flush) they have to whoa right now and I try not to shoot bumped birds and pass on wild flushes. Just what I want out of my time in the field. With that many birds, I'd be picky on my shots anyway and just enjoy the dog work. To each their own.

Course that one ol boy at about the 2:25 minute mark was swinging toward the camera man when the they cut the scene. Was that Dick Cheney?


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