# I'll just...



## StriperrHunterr (Dec 4, 2013)

leave this right here. 

Credit: Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal. 

http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3161#comic


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## ambush80 (Dec 4, 2013)

If it were like religion it would say something like "This here book showed me how I could stop abusing myself and I did.  It also said that the answer is 4 so that must be true."


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## StriperrHunterr (Dec 4, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> If it were like religion it would say something like "This here book showed me how I could stop abusing myself and I did.  It also said that the answer is 4 so that must be true."



It did, the "I think" part conveys belief without evidence.


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## ambush80 (Dec 4, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> It did, the "I think" part conveys belief without evidence.



It's much worse.  They don't "think" they KNOW.


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## StriperrHunterr (Dec 4, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> It's much worse.  They don't "think" they KNOW.



They THINK they KNOW. Nothing more.


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## ambush80 (Dec 4, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> They THINK they KNOW. Nothing more.



Try to get one of them to admit that.  I don't see why it has to be so all or nothing with them. Furthermore, I don't see why the perceived necessity of that position doesn't raise warning signs.


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## pnome (Dec 4, 2013)

It's _probably_ 178910723.6438216.

But don't forget, math has imaginary numbers and is known to be irrational at times.


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## StriperrHunterr (Dec 4, 2013)

pnome said:


> It's _probably_ 178910723.6438216.
> 
> But don't forget, math has imaginary numbers and is known to be irrational at times.



Like they say, 2+2=4, except for large values of 2.


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## stringmusic (Dec 4, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> If it were like religion it would say something like "This here book showed me how I could stop abusing myself and I did.  It also said that the answer is 4 so that must be true."





StripeRR HunteRR said:


> It did, the "I think" part conveys belief without evidence.





ambush80 said:


> It's much worse.  They don't "think" they KNOW.





StripeRR HunteRR said:


> They THINK they KNOW. Nothing more.





ambush80 said:


> Try to get one of them to admit that.  I don't see why it has to be so all or nothing with them. Furthermore, I don't see why the perceived necessity of that position doesn't raise warning signs.


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## StriperrHunterr (Dec 4, 2013)

stringmusic said:


>



A witty retort, good sir!


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## stringmusic (Dec 4, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> A witty retort, good sir!



LOL, that's all I could come up with after reading that dialogue.


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## StriperrHunterr (Dec 4, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> LOL, that's all I could come up with after reading that dialogue.



If there was objective proof we would all know. That's all I was saying, not meaning any offense.


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## ambush80 (Dec 4, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> If it were like religion it would say something like "This here book showed me how I could stop abusing myself and I did.  It also said that the answer is 4 so that must be true."





stringmusic said:


>




Lets start with this one.  Tell me how you believe that there was a burning talking bush.


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## JB0704 (Dec 4, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> If there was objective proof we would all know.



There is.  You just like to call it a miracle, I call it an intentional act.


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## hummdaddy (Dec 4, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> There is.  You just like to call it a miracle, I call it an intentional act.



what's that your talking about?
'


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## ambush80 (Dec 4, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> There is.  You just like to call it a miracle, I call it an intentional act.



I don't think we use 'miracle' too often around here.  

Tell me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that what happens is that people have some kind of experience, they stop abusing themselves or were cured of some malady, they credit it to Jesus, they believe that Jesus was responsible for writing the Bible, so if he could make them stop abusing themselves then he can make a burning bush talk.  Am I understanding that correctly?


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## drippin' rock (Dec 4, 2013)

I'm pretty sure I'M right.......


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## JB0704 (Dec 4, 2013)

hummdaddy said:


> what's that your talking about?
> '



Look in the mirror.


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## JB0704 (Dec 4, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> I don't think we use 'miracle' too often around here.



Nah.....you say "I don't know, but it sure as heck wasn't God." 



ambush80 said:


> Tell me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that what happens is that people have some kind of experience, they stop abusing themselves or were cured of some malady, they credit it to Jesus, they believe that Jesus was responsible for writing the Bible, so if he could make them stop abusing themselves then he can make a burning bush talk.  Am I understanding that correctly?



I am not talking about some dude quitting crack, or cancer being cured, etc.  I am talking about life.  You can't replicate it.  Sure, there are lot's of lovely theories out there on how and why it exists, but, the truth is, stuff don't animate on it's own.  If it did, it would be a miracle as the probability is very, very low.......less than hitting the lottery I would think, that the ingredients for life would all come together here, at this time, and the molecules which you are composed of would be the "lucky winners" in this galactic game of chance.  And, at the same time, not only are there billions of lucky molecules making you, but there are the additional billions which make me.  And somehow, these lucky billions of molecules which were animated by galactic chance are here, at this time, conversing with each other over the internet.

Speaking of that......what are the odds that life would exist to the extent that it would be intelligent enough to create the internet......one crazy mutation a few million years ago and this fancy contraption I am typing on would never exist, heck man, my molecules could still be swinging in the trees living on moss and leaves, maybe even acorns. 

That's a miracle.  Or, that's a design.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 5, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Nah.....you say "I don't know, but it sure as heck wasn't God."
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> Nah.....you say "I don't know, but it sure as heck wasn't God."


You are wording that as though its a fact that God or a god exists and he/she/it is being dismissed as the one who did it. Not the case.
If Christmas morning there is a gift under the tree for your son that you or your wife did not buy, is "Santa brought it" at the top of your list or at the bottom of your list of how it got there? 


> I am talking about life.  You can't replicate it


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## JB0704 (Dec 5, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> You are wording that as though its a fact that God or a god exists and he/she/it is being dismissed as the one who did it. Not the case.
> If Christmas morning there is a gift under the tree for your son that you or your wife did not buy, is "Santa brought it" at the top of your list or at the bottom of your list of how it got there?



Walt, there are two possible outcomes to the Christmas gift.  First, if all things remain as expected in the natural world, I will assume my wife or kids were the culprit.  However, if the box animates, stands up, and walks away on it's own, I will assume Santa


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## stringmusic (Dec 5, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Lets start with this one.  Tell me how you believe that there was a burning talking bush.



I'm pretty sure we've had this exact discussion before, but, I'll go at it again.


I believe God exists and the He can communicate to someone through a burning talking bush. I aslo believe He can make a donkey talk, and I also believe that He can create everything that is known to exist and even things we don't know exist.


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## stringmusic (Dec 5, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Nah.....you say "I don't know, but it sure as heck wasn't God."
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Skeptic Sir Fredrick Hoyle....



> Abiogenesis is a mathematical impossibility. Sir Fred Hoyle, a British astronomer and mathematician, calculated the odds of one simple bacterium arising from a primordial soup. He assumed that the 20 amino acids were present in the soup (contrary to the results of the Miller-Urey experiment, which yielded only seven of the simplest amino acids). A simple bacterium is comprised of 2,000 different functioning proteins. In turn, each protein consists of a chain of about 300 amino acids. There are 20 distinct amino acids, so the odds of one proteinated amino acid occurring in the correct sequence is one in 20. The odds of 300 occurring in the correct sequence is one in 30020. Hoyle realized that there can be some variation in the exact sequence, so the odds would be reduced to one in 1020. But because there must be 2,000 different functioning proteins, the odds of the spontaneous generation of a cell is one in 10(20)(2,000) = 1040,000. Even ignoring the problems beyond the math (such as the counter-productive effects that individual essential chemical components have upon each other, and the inability to create all 20 amino acids under simulated conditions), abiogenesis is impossible.



I think I remember hearing that 10 to the 40,000th power is more than the known atoms in the universe. The known atoms is around 10 to the 18,000th power.


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## ambush80 (Dec 5, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Nah.....you say "I don't know, but it sure as heck wasn't God."
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I'm still not convinced of your evidence of design, but I'll play.

If there was a guy that could blink everything into existence, why is it necessarily possible that he would be able to make a rock fall up or a donkey talk and why would you believe that he ever did?

Those things don't, and as far as everybody knows, can't happen.  Why would you ever believe that those things have ever happened?

See, I guess I'm looking at you as an example of a deist first and as a specific type of deist (Christian) secondly.  Your argument about a designer, while in my mind incomplete, can still be filed under "plausible".  Now, when you start talking about the specific designer and the stuff he does and how it was documented your credibility kind of falls apart.  Is that fair?


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## bullethead (Dec 5, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Nah.....you say "I don't know, but it sure as heck wasn't God."
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Design implies a plan and a plan requires a set of rules that must be followed to make the plan work. If like you say these molecules were designed to "work" together 200 million years ago to become human so that these molecules could have a conversation on the internet today then the argument of free will goes out the window. The molecules (worldwide mind you and not limited to humans)  are doing exactly what they were and are designed to do. By your theory we are supposed to be having this conversation right now by design.....not just we are capable of performing these actions but we are supposed to type exactly what we have typed because of design. Free Will be darned.
 Are you saying intricate planning was put into action, we are the result and the plan has not gone accordingly, cannot go accordingly, because once implemented the finished product(such as humans) were designed to not follow the rules, NEVER FULL WELL KNOWING THE RULES, yet will pay for their "choice" for eternity?

What exactly and how deep does the planning and rules go for the "Design" you are talking about?


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## bullethead (Dec 5, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Skeptic Sir Fredrick Hoyle....
> 
> 
> 
> I think I remember hearing that 10 to the 40,000th power is more than the known atoms in the universe. The known atoms is around 10 to the 18,000th power.



Those figures are based off of a single specific ribozyme being synthesized for life to begin, this article explains how there was not just one but many.


> Many people, perhaps most, hate the idea that life might depend on chance processes. It is a human tendency to search for meaning, and what could be more meaningful than the belief that our lives have a greater purpose, that all life in fact is guided by a supreme intelligence which manifests itself even at the level of individual molecules?
> 
> Proponents of intelligent design believe that the components of life are so complex that they could not possibly have been produced by an evolutionary process. To bolster their argument, they calculate the odds that a specific protein might assemble by chance in the prebiotic environment. The odds against such a chance assembly are so astronomically immense that a protein required for life to begin could not possibly have assembled by chance on the early Earth.  Therefore, the argument goes, life must have been designed.
> 
> ...


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## stringmusic (Dec 5, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Design implies a plan and a plan requires a set of rules that must be followed to make the plan work. If like you say these molecules were designed to "work" together 200 million years ago to become human so that these molecules could have a conversation on the internet today then the argument of free will goes out the window. The molecules (worldwide mind you and not limited to humans)  are doing exactly what they were and are designed to do. By your theory we are supposed to be having this conversation right now by design.....not just we are capable of performing these actions but we are supposed to type exactly what we have typed because of design. Free Will be darned.
> Are you saying intricate planning was put into action, we are the result and the plan has not gone accordingly, cannot go accordingly, because once implemented the finished product(such as humans) were designed to not follow the rules, NEVER FULL WELL KNOWING THE RULES, yet will pay for their "choice" for eternity?
> 
> What exactly and how deep does the planning and rules go for the "Design" you are talking about?



Leaving God out of the equation still doesn't give you free will, you're just dancing to your DNA, you can't help it.


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## bullethead (Dec 5, 2013)

More reading that cites the "numbers" then counters them.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/addendaB.html


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## stringmusic (Dec 5, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Those figures are based off of a single specific ribozyme being synthesized for life to begin, this article explains how there was not just one but many.



I'm not smart enough to argue with mathematicians and physicists, but I did pick up on this....



> Proponents of intelligent design believe that the components of life are so complex that they could not possibly have been produced by an evolutionary process.



Hoyle is an atheist who I believe buys into the panspermia theory, so he is not a proponent of ID.

Hoyle is also considered the greatest British physicist of the 20th century. I'm not sure who wrote your article.


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## bullethead (Dec 5, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Leaving God out of the equation still doesn't give you free will, you're just dancing to your DNA, you can't help it.



Leaving God out of the equation is the EXACT reason we have free will! Please don't think Free Will cannot exist without a God.....a God cannot exist without Free Will, the God you worship falls apart without an explanation why humans do what humans do.

I agree we are all dancing to our DNA and can't help it. I might be wrong but I don't think many people choose to be bald, choose to be fat, choose to have health problems, choose to get Cancer etc etc etc....they are results of our DNA. Unless of course that is the designed plan?


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## bullethead (Dec 5, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> I'm not smart enough to argue with mathematicians and physicists, but I did pick up on this....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There are more scenarios than one.


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## StriperrHunterr (Dec 5, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> There is.  You just like to call it a miracle, I call it an intentional act.



What objective proof was I referring to, from your POV?


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## ambush80 (Dec 5, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> I'm not smart enough to argue with mathematicians and physicists, but I did pick up on this....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



"I'm not smart enough to argue with mathematicians or physicists...."   but I'll post the ones that support my theory.


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## bullethead (Dec 5, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> I'm not smart enough to argue with mathematicians and physicists, but I did pick up on this....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So you agree with an Atheist physicist's mathematics and physics but cannot wrap your mind around what I've posted (that counters what you have posted) because I didn't cite the author???

This is the guy:


> Dave Deamer
> Stars, Planets, Life
> About Dave
> 
> ...


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## WaltL1 (Dec 5, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Leaving God out of the equation still doesn't give you free will, you're just dancing to your DNA, you can't help it.


The flip side of that is the writers of the Bible HAD to put God in the equation BECAUSE of free will.
How better to explain why you have free will than to tell you God gave it to you. Choosing God is good not choosing God is bad. 
Bases covered.


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## panfried0419 (Dec 5, 2013)

If there wasn't a God there wouldn't be atheist.


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## drippin' rock (Dec 5, 2013)

More accurately, if there was no belief in a god, there would be no atheists.


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## pnome (Dec 5, 2013)

If there wasn't a god, there would be nothing.


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## StriperrHunterr (Dec 5, 2013)

pnome said:


> If there wasn't a god, there would be nothing.



Like THE Nothing, from that movie? 

Oh, that's scary.


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## stringmusic (Dec 5, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> "I'm not smart enough to argue with mathematicians or physicists...."   but I'll post the ones that support my theory.


I can't even post a world renown atheist physicist without catching some flack. LOL

He's the one credited with coming up with the numbers, not me, I don't have a theory.


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## stringmusic (Dec 5, 2013)

bullethead said:


> So you agree with an Atheist physicist's mathematics and physics but cannot wrap your mind around what I've posted (that counters what you have posted) because I didn't cite the author???
> 
> This is the guy:



I didn't say I couldn't wrap my mind around it, I said I wasn't smart enough to argue with physicists and mathematicians.

You believe ol Dave, and throw out the words and work of a world renown physicists if you want to.

Do you believe the numbers that Hoyle came up with at all?


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## pnome (Dec 5, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Like THE Nothing, from that movie?
> 
> Oh, that's scary.



Now that I think about it.  Yes.  Just like that.


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## StriperrHunterr (Dec 5, 2013)

pnome said:


> Now that I think about it.  Yes.  Just like that.



Oh horrible nothingness. I'll start believing today just to be sure that doesn't happen. 

Oh, thank you!!


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## ambush80 (Dec 5, 2013)

pnome said:


> If there wasn't a god, there would be nothing.



I still think you've got it backward.  Without us there would be no god(s).


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## JB0704 (Dec 5, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> See, I guess I'm looking at you as an example of a deist first and as a specific type of deist (Christian) secondly.  Your argument about a designer, while in my mind incomplete, can still be filed under "plausible".  Now, when you start talking about the specific designer and the stuff he does and how it was documented your credibility kind of falls apart.  Is that fair?



Sure.  You have no basis to believe the things I do beyond the original cause, and you either buy that one or not.

The donkey may have never talked, the bush may never have burned.  It could all have been a fictional discussion of how one man's actions were affected for the better (defined as God's will in those specific cases).  The good news is that neither has to be real for God to be real.

Personally, I don't eget too hung up in the OT anymore.  My perspective on the work has evolved a good bit over the years.  Instead of looking at what it's saying specifically, I look for the message it is trying to convey to me, and you.


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## JB0704 (Dec 5, 2013)

bullethead said:


> What exactly and how deep does the planning and rules go for the "Design" you are talking about?



I'm not God, so, I don't know. People say all the time "you can have your own opinions, but you can't have your own facts."  That's the way I approach my faith.  What I "want" God to be has nothing to do with what God is.  I could be completely wrong about my position on free will (it waivers sometimes), and that wouldn't change the facts.

That being the case, I don't have to like something to believe it.  My preference is irrelevant to the facts.


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## StriperrHunterr (Dec 5, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> ......Life.  Existence.



Nice pic. 

I was referring to objective proof of a creator, like being able to demonstrate, repeatedly, that if you split a group of 4 into 2 groups, each group has 2 members, so 4/2=2 always.


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## 1222DANO (Dec 5, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> You are wording that as though its a fact that God or a god exists and he/she/it is being dismissed as the one who did it. Not the case.
> If Christmas morning there is a gift under the tree for your son that you or your wife did not buy, is "Santa brought it" at the top of your list or at the bottom of your list of how it got there?




Christmas gift giving was done by a Saint Nick.. who was a Saint of God.. 
He noticed all the kids never had nothing or never gave each other nothing. The parents was busy being selfish and its starting to exist again in the world.. He taught the parents to give out of the love in their hearts to children and not just themselfs.. The Love of Jesus, the man who died for a greater purpose other than himself... he cared about others..

i would have guess that most all non believers in Christ don't believe in Christmas.. They do not hold Love in their hearts for others.. 

Its about themselves..

i don't wanna push my religion on you.. just simply explaining my religion that you question..


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## bullethead (Dec 5, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> I didn't say I couldn't wrap my mind around it, I said I wasn't smart enough to argue with physicists and mathematicians.
> 
> You believe ol Dave, and throw out the words and work of a world renown physicists if you want to.
> 
> Do you believe the numbers that Hoyle came up with at all?



The numbers Hoyle came up with are very accurate for ONE specific chance in ONE specific scenario. There is no indication that the only chance life had to start was that particular way.

I posted a link that shows many different scientists and physicists take on the matter. Simply, Hoyle's scenario is not so simple.


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## 1222DANO (Dec 5, 2013)

i got questions about Athiest and i'm not judging just wanting knowledge..

When do you show your love to your kids,friends,family,strangers?
beyond what your normal life allows.. when do you make a point to show them love?

When do you gather together?
What force keeps you from becoming a ruler of your mind and doing what you think is right?

just looking for answers i'm not judging just trying to see into the night.


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## 1222DANO (Dec 5, 2013)

What force binds you and your wife together so that you try to do whats right by her and not just run over her?

its never to late for me or anyone to lay everything down, for the greater good..

the pilgrims did it for us to have better lives, the God fearing do it for their own good, the soldier does it for his country and its good...

i would say that just about all soldiers have a good cry before leaving everything they know and going somewhere they know nothing about.. the same as a Christian, i'm sure the Pilgrims did, it happens over and over.. Dads that leave their kids at home to go work and provide for their family.. it happens over and over..

you cannot gain true riches unless your willing to lay it all down..


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## bullethead (Dec 5, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I'm not God, so, I don't know. People say all the time "you can have your own opinions, but you can't have your own facts."  That's the way I approach my faith.  What I "want" God to be has nothing to do with what God is.  I could be completely wrong about my position on free will (it waivers sometimes), and that wouldn't change the facts.
> 
> That being the case, I don't have to like something to believe it.  My preference is irrelevant to the facts.



I agree. You are not God, you do have your own opinions and your preference is irrelevant to the facts. I do think the whole point of many of these conversations is to try to use as many facts as possible to either back up or refute opinions and preferences.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 5, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> Christmas gift giving was done by a Saint Nick.. who was a Saint of God..
> He noticed all the kids never had nothing or never gave each other nothing. The parents was busy being selfish and its starting to exist again in the world.. He taught the parents to give out of the love in their hearts to children and not just themselfs.. The Love of Jesus, the man who died for a greater purpose other than himself... he cared about others..
> 
> i would have guess that most all non believers in Christ don't believe in Christmas.. They do not hold Love in their hearts for others..
> ...


Uh you might want to do a little research on where  Christmas (not the name but the event) originated and then get back to us.


> They do not hold Love in their hearts for others..


Now how is anybody supposed to take you seriously with nonsense like that?


> i don't wanna push my religion on you.. just simply explaining my religion that you question..


You did a horrible job explaining your religion. There wasn't an actual fact in your entire post.


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## StriperrHunterr (Dec 5, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> i got questions about Athiest and i'm not judging just wanting knowledge..
> 
> When do you show your love to your kids,friends,family,strangers?
> beyond what your normal life allows.. when do you make a point to show them love?
> ...


I'm not an atheist, but every day and every time I think about it. 

If they don't know that through my daily actions, that I love them, a big show of flowers, or jewelry per se, isn't going to cut it. 

I gather with mine on the holidays that my employer gives. They're typically Christian holidays, but not always. Even withstanding that, many of my family, extended included, are believers so I go through the motions to make them happy. 

Like Thanksgiving for example, my Mom, a devout Catholic, wanted to have a prayer before the meal. So I joined hands with everyone and had a quiet moment to myself just to remind myself what to be Thankful for while they prayed. 

Help me understand your phrase, "Ruler of my mind."

As far as what makes me do "right," it's what I've come to call "the Stream." Just like dumping dirty water into a clean stream and someone else downstream having to deal with it, I wouldn't want someone to do that to me, so I don't do that to them. See also, ripple effect.


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## bullethead (Dec 5, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> i got questions about Athiest and i'm not judging just wanting knowledge..
> 
> When do you show your love to your kids,friends,family,strangers?
> beyond what your normal life allows.. when do you make a point to show them love?
> ...



I am not a card carrying Atheist so I don't know if I qualify for your survey. 
I do what my family, friends, neighborhood, society and evolution has conditioned me to do. Ultimately it comes down to me, my decision to act in a certain way. I use many factors to influence my decision but I have the final say and are responsible for my actions. I can assure you what you think is "normal" and "acceptable" does not hold true in other parts of the world.


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## bullethead (Dec 5, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> What force binds you and your wife together so that you try to do whats right by her and not just run over her?



I pee on a flat rock in my yard while asking for it's guidance. If I ask and do not pee the rock is angry and will not grant my requests. If I do pee directly on it sometimes the rock says "yes" "no" or 'wait". The flat rock is the only force that keeps me doing right and wrong to my wife and others in life. It has complete hold over me and I am nothing without this flat rock. All of my inner thoughts and ultimate sense of good and bad come from this flat rock. I believe this flat rock is where ultimate morals come from.

See how butt-ugly stupid that sounds?
I don't need a flat rock or an invisible "super me" in the sky to be a decent person.


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## StriperrHunterr (Dec 5, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I pee on a flat rock in my yard while asking for it's guidance. If I ask and do not pee the rock is angry and will not grant my requests. If I do pee directly on it sometimes the rock says "yes" "no" or 'wait". The flat rock is the only force that keeps me doing right and wrong to my wife and others in life. It has complete hold over me and I am nothing without this flat rock. All of my inner thoughts and ultimate sense of good and bad come from this flat rock. I believe this flat rock is where ultimate morals come from.
> 
> See how butt-ugly stupid that sounds?
> I don't need a flat rock or an invisible "super me" in the sky to be a decent person.


Dang, I was gonna ask what kind of rock it was and put one in my yard.


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## bullethead (Dec 5, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Dang, I was gonna ask what kind of rock it was and put one in my yard.



LOL, YES!!! It was very convincing and all I would need is ONE other banana head to follow me and we could have started a new religion.
Luckily I posted a disclaimer underneath!


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## StriperrHunterr (Dec 5, 2013)

bullethead said:


> LOL, YES!!! It was very convincing and all I would need is ONE other banana head to follow me and we could have started a new religion.
> Luckily I posted a disclaimer underneath!



You won't find him by calling him a banana head, I'll say that much.


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## JB0704 (Dec 5, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Nice pic.
> 
> I was referring to objective proof of a creator, like being able to demonstrate, repeatedly, that if you split a group of 4 into 2 groups, each group has 2 members, so 4/2=2 always.



Thanks.  I will pull it in a little while, but I use it for this particular conversation because of how "alive" the moment is in the picture.

I view existence and life both as evidence of a creator.  I see no logical way around it.  That does not mean that my particular flavor of belief is correct, it jsut means I am quite certain it was all put here on purpose.


----------



## bullethead (Dec 5, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> You won't find him by calling him a banana head, I'll say that much.



I'll keep my eyes "peeled"


----------



## JB0704 (Dec 5, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I agree. You are not God, you do have your own opinions and your preference is irrelevant to the facts. I do think the whole point of many of these conversations is to try to use as many facts as possible to either back up or refute opinions and preferences.



Agreed.


----------



## bullethead (Dec 5, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Thanks.  I will pull it in a little while, but I use it for this particular conversation because of how "alive" the moment is in the picture.
> 
> I view existence and life both as evidence of a creator.  I see no logical way around it.  That does not mean that my particular flavor of belief is correct, it jsut means I am quite certain it was all put here on purpose.



In your opinion what is the purpose?


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 5, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> i got questions about Athiest and i'm not judging just wanting knowledge..
> 
> When do you show your love to your kids,friends,family,strangers?
> beyond what your normal life allows.. when do you make a point to show them love?
> ...


I am not trying to attack you here but to me these questions are just mind boggling. 


> just trying to see into the night


I think that may be part of the problem because the answers are right here in the day light in front of you.
An atheist doesn't believe in deities. Any of them. End of story. Nothing mystical, no secret meetings at night under the cloak of darkness, no chanting in the Atheist tongue, no special passwords, no sacrificing of anybodys first born in the name of Atheism. An Atheist doesn't believe in all the same deities that you yourself don't believe in. Plus one more. Its simple really.


----------



## 1222DANO (Dec 5, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> Uh you might want to do a little research on where  Christmas (not the name but the event) originated and then get back to us.
> 
> Now how is anybody supposed to take you seriously with nonsense like that?
> 
> You did a horrible job explaining your religion. There wasn't an actual fact in your entire post.




yes Christ birthday but not why we us Santa Claus..

answer some of those questions please.. i know as mind boggling as they are isn't that the real point of life..


----------



## bullethead (Dec 5, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> yes Christ birthday but not why we us Santa Claus..



Strike 2


----------



## 1222DANO (Dec 5, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> I'm not an atheist, but every day and every time I think about it.
> 
> If they don't know that through my daily actions, that I love them, a big show of flowers, or jewelry per se, isn't going to cut it.
> 
> ...



look i ask some of the simplest questions they are and get a total different answer and pointed to my faults..

if you only gather cause your parents do then what will your children do?

Are they gonna go through the motions on others faith in showing Love to one another.. probably.. thats okay.. do you want their children to come together or does it die out and their sitting at home alone. because the faith in doing good is dead..

in essences you rule your own mind because you believe that in believing in something other than yourself isn't real.. 
you have your own ideas and agendas and thats what i'm trying to find out.. i don't think i'm no better just trying to explain my point.. Are you gonna lay down the law of right and wrong for your children and each generation follow your law and your rules? are you their ruler.. someone so  perfect in every way as to set a prime example on how to live?


----------



## 1222DANO (Dec 5, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Strike 2




you tell me, i've done said i'm not perfect but somehow it keeps getting pointed out.. 

i'm wrong everyday man.. doesn't bother me at all..


----------



## bullethead (Dec 5, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> you tell me, i've done said i'm not perfect but somehow it keeps getting pointed out..
> 
> i'm wrong everyday man.. doesn't bother me at all..



http://www.essortment.com/christmas-pagan-origins-42543.html

There is nothing wrong with not being perfect...nobody is perfect. But it is a disservice to yourself to not research the things you state on here.


----------



## bullethead (Dec 5, 2013)

More about Santa
http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/yulethelongestnight/p/Santa_Claus.htm

http://www.orlutheran.com/html/santa.html


----------



## bullethead (Dec 5, 2013)

Like many many MANY things in Christianity, Christmas and Santa Claus were borrowed and adapted from earlier sources.


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 5, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> answer some of those questions please.. i know as mind boggling as they are isn't that the real point of life..



DANO,

It might be easier to get this discussion started if you will take a moment to research Mahatma Gandhi.  The issue you should bring to the discussion is if you believe Gandhi was a good person, and if his religious beliefs played a part in whether or not he was a good person.


----------



## 1222DANO (Dec 5, 2013)

bullethead said:


> http://www.essortment.com/christmas-pagan-origins-42543.html
> 
> There is nothing wrong with not being perfect...nobody is perfect. But it is a disservice to yourself to not research the things you state on here.



if life is a chemistry set, then we're all in one heck of a mess.. maybe they'll give us all a pill that'll complete our DNA order that'll make us all understand.. 

i've said before just trying to understand.. its okay i do my best i just wants whats best for us all as a whole.. i do care about everyone and will help anyone that i can. 

just let me know if theirs anything i can help with... i believe i should just be quiet.. i'm not gaining knowledge i'm getting more questions..


----------



## JB0704 (Dec 5, 2013)

bullethead said:


> In your opinion what is the purpose?



My _opinion_ on the matter is that we will never really know the whole story......but, I tend to think God put us here because he could, and that gives him joy (glory).  Much like the library I built in my basement.  

.....but that is putting a human spin on it, for sure.


----------



## 1222DANO (Dec 5, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Like many many MANY things in Christianity, Christmas and Santa Claus were borrowed and adapted from earlier sources.



do you believe in some earlier source of religion?


----------



## 1222DANO (Dec 5, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> DANO,
> 
> It might be easier to get this discussion started if you will take a moment to research Mahatma Gandhi.  The issue you should bring to the discussion is if you believe Gandhi was a good person, and if his religious beliefs played a part in whether or not he was a good person.




What was his self purification?
if you believe you can follow that mans example then go ahead.. 

i believe i wasn't born perfect so there for i must cleanse myself through Jesus.. a man that lived as perfect as any man and died so i can be forgiven and cleansed.. he understood that a man wasn't perfect and said its okay aslong as you believe in what i did and you try to do your best..

Did that man die and lay his life down so you can call upon him to cleanse you? 
what if he did live his life as perfect as he could and took care of others in the world only?
What about the unborn, what about the dying? Did he care about them?


----------



## bullethead (Dec 5, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> if life is a chemistry set, then we're all in one heck of a mess.. maybe they'll give us all a pill that'll complete our DNA order that'll make us all understand..


Understand WHAT???



1222DANO said:


> i've said before just trying to understand.. its okay i do my best i just wants whats best for us all as a whole.. i do care about everyone and will help anyone that i can.


OKAY..................



1222DANO said:


> just let me know if theirs anything i can help with... i believe i should just be quiet.. i'm not gaining knowledge i'm getting more questions..



It would be helpful to me if you can let me know if you have read the links I provided to you and if you now understand a little bit more about Christmas and Santa Claus than you did 5 minutes ago.


----------



## bullethead (Dec 5, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> My _opinion_ on the matter is that we will never really know the whole story......but, I tend to think God put us here because he could, and that gives him joy (glory).  Much like the library I built in my basement.
> 
> .....but that is putting a human spin on it, for sure.



I have to ask....in a human spin kind of way...
Will you condemn the books in your library that do not please you to a fiery pit?


----------



## bullethead (Dec 5, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> do you believe in some earlier source of religion?



I am not sure of what you are asking me: Are you asking me..
Do I Personally FOLLOW and earlier religion?
or
Do I believe that there were earlier religions that other people followed?


----------



## bullethead (Dec 5, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> What was his self purification?
> if you believe you can follow that mans example then go ahead..
> 
> i believe i wasn't born perfect so there for i must cleanse myself through Jesus.. a man that lived as perfect as any man and died so i can be forgiven and cleansed.. he understood that a man wasn't perfect and said its okay aslong as you believe in what i did and you try to do your best..
> ...



What did Jesus do and how did Jesus live between the ages of 2yrs old to 30 years old? How "perfect" of a life did Jesus live during those years?

In your opinion:
If you were God and you wanted to "fix" mankind's problems and save all humans....would the ONLY solution to the problem be that you are going to get a human woman who is a virgin pregnant, have her and her husband raise your kid, have your kid live in total obscurity for 29years, then all of a sudden spring him onto the scene so the Jewish people MUST kill him so that all of mankind will be saved? And being God THAT is the best plan you can come up with??


----------



## 1222DANO (Dec 5, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I am not sure of what you are asking me: Are you asking me..
> Do I Personally FOLLOW and earlier religion?
> or
> Do I believe that there were earlier religions that other people followed?




its all good your just playing me, your caught in a endless cycle.. if you want to break that cycle and answer why you we're put on earth then we can talk.. 
its a belief that we can live our lives and better the next life that comes along.. if we choose to only do good and get good then our children also believe the same. what laws keeps them from creating new ones.. you have to hold yourself to a standard no different in using a gun.. you wouldn't pick up a 308 and shove a 50cal bullet in it.. even if it fits it'll just tear things up and blow up in your face.. endangering the lives around you..  what if we're all the same caliber then doesn't it make life more enjoyable and we all get a shot.. if not we'll spend our lives looking for that one shot and never get it... why because everyone is a different caliber and has their own beliefs.. i tried putting it in terms with you..


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 5, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> What was his self purification?
> if you believe you can follow that mans example then go ahead..
> 
> i believe i wasn't born perfect so there for i must cleanse myself through Jesus.. a man that lived as perfect as any man and died so i can be forgiven and cleansed.. he understood that a man wasn't perfect and said its okay aslong as you believe in what i did and you try to do your best..
> ...



I think you are arguing against statements that were never asserted.  I never indicated that anyone worships Gandhi or that anyone believes that Gandhi has supernatural powers.

My reference to Gandhi was in direct response to your initial questions.  Take a moment to research Gandhi, who was a regular man, and let's discuss the source of his decency if it did not come from being a Christian.


----------



## bullethead (Dec 5, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> its all good your just playing me, your caught in a endless cycle.. if you want to break that cycle and answer why you we're put on earth then we can talk..
> its a belief that we can live our lives and better the next life that comes along.. if we choose to only do good and get good then our children also believe the same. what laws keeps them from creating new ones.. you have to hold yourself to a standard no different in using a gun.. you wouldn't pick up a 308 and shove a 50cal bullet in it.. even if it fits it'll just tear things up and blow up in your face.. endangering the lives around you..  what if we're all the same caliber then doesn't it make life more enjoyable and we all get a shot.. if not we'll spend our lives looking for that one shot and never get it... why because everyone is a different caliber and has their own beliefs.. i tried putting it in terms with you..



Trying to have a serious conversation with you is like trying to catch a jackrabbit on a pogo stick...you are all over the place.
I am not playing anyone.
I am not caught in any cycle, let alone an endless cycle.
We cannot have a conversation about why I was "put" on Earth because I do not think I (or anyone) was "put" on Earth.

"We" , me ,you, everyone else......are NOT that same caliber.


----------



## 1222DANO (Dec 5, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I think you are arguing against statements that were never asserted.  I never indicated that anyone worships Gandhi or that anyone believes that Gandhi has supernatural powers.
> 
> My reference to Gandhi was in direct response to your initial questions.  Take a moment to research Gandhi, who was a regular man, and let's discuss the source of his decency if it did not come from being a Christian.



i understand i thought about it, he had to draw his faith in believing that what he was doing was for the betterment of the world and from somewhere other than his own needs and wants.. so yes he was a Christian.. he just didn't call himself that..
says he achieved to be the ruler of his mind... his mind didn't just choose to do good. says he did self purification..if he was so pure then why did he need to do this process shouldn't it just have come naturally?


----------



## 1222DANO (Dec 5, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Trying to have a serious conversation with you is like trying to catch a jackrabbit on a pogo stick...you are all over the place.
> I am not playing anyone.
> I am not caught in any cycle, let alone an endless cycle.
> We cannot have a conversation about why I was "put" on Earth because I do not think I (or anyone) was "put" on Earth.
> ...




i know right, i like talking it over with you..

its like catching lightning in a bottle.. if you ever wanna try and catch lightning let me know.. 

i'll pray and ask for knowledge and understanding and you can just walk out and hold the rod and find out for yourself..


----------



## bullethead (Dec 5, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> i know right, i like talking it over with you..
> 
> its like catching lightning in a bottle.. if you ever wanna try and catch lightning let me know..
> 
> i'll pray and ask for knowledge and understanding and you can just walk out and hold the rod and find out for yourself..



http://news.sciencemag.org/physics/2009/05/you-really-can-catch-lightning-bottle


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 5, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> i understand i thought about it, he had to draw his faith in believing that what he was doing was for the betterment of the world and from somewhere other than his own needs and wants.. so yes he was a Christian.. he just didn't call himself that..
> says he achieved to be the ruler of his mind... his mind didn't just choose to do good. says he did self purification..if he was so pure then why did he need to do this process shouldn't it just have come naturally?



Gandhi was Hindu.  He performed the customary rituals of his religion.  If Gandhi was a good man, it did not come from the God of Abraham because Gandhi was Hindu.

Since a Christian is not allowed to believe that a Hindu god exists to teach goodness to a Hindu, the source of Gandhi's decency could not have been his Hindu God.

So that leaves us with Gandhi's decency coming from somewhere other than a god.


----------



## 1222DANO (Dec 5, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Trying to have a serious conversation with you is like trying to catch a jackrabbit on a pogo stick...you are all over the place.
> I am not playing anyone.
> I am not caught in any cycle, let alone an endless cycle.
> We cannot have a conversation about why I was "put" on Earth because I do not think I (or anyone) was "put" on Earth.
> ...



if  we're not the same then how did a chemistry set come to this conclusion?

So are you saying that everyone has different chemist?
each person is different but yet the same chemistry was applied to complete that person but yet their not the same..makes no sense to me....


----------



## 1222DANO (Dec 5, 2013)

Who was this master chemist? 
could it have been God.... the man with all the knowledge and power..


----------



## 1222DANO (Dec 5, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Gandhi was Hindu.  He performed the customary rituals of his religion.  If Gandhi was a good man, it did not come from the God of Abraham because Gandhi was Hindu.
> 
> Since a Christian is not allowed to believe that a Hindu god exists to teach goodness to a Hindu, the source of Gandhi's decency could not have been his Hindu God.
> 
> So that leaves us with Gandhi's decency coming from somewhere other than a god.



God has no boundary's set by or implied by man...


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 5, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> God has no boundary's set by or implied by man...



I'm sorry for wasting your time.  I thought you wanted to discuss the source of goodness, etc.  I misunderstood.


----------



## bullethead (Dec 5, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> if  we're not the same then how did a chemistry set come to this conclusion?
> 
> So are you saying that everyone has different chemist?
> each person is different but yet the same chemistry was applied to complete that person but yet their not the same..makes no sense to me....



No chemist involved. Chemistry happens without a chemist.


----------



## bullethead (Dec 5, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> Who was this master chemist?
> could it have been God.... the man with all the knowledge and power..



You asserting a chemist in no way makes a chemist necessary.
You did tell us once that you were educated right?


----------



## 1222DANO (Dec 5, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I'm sorry for wasting your time.  I thought you wanted to discuss the source of goodness, etc.  I misunderstood.




i do but why complicate.. we've been told... 

why search else where our ancestors have done told us.. 
i can't help if your lost.. if your looking for other answers then your chasing your tail.. do you not believe in whats been told to you.?

God is the great creator.. 
Jesus is the greatness of Gods good... he died to show us to love everything,everyone, to do good and carry love in our hearts.. Not to believe in one man or the other.. why because he didn't die for you.. he loved us from the beginning to the end.. not just what would put more money in our pockets and deal with whats in the world.. to love and forgive.. to pass this on to each other so that your children grandchildren,great grandchildren will believe in this principal of love and forgiveness..


----------



## 1222DANO (Dec 5, 2013)

bullethead said:


> No chemist involved. Chemistry happens without a chemist.



No chemist involved.. okay are we gonna stare at some chemicals and wait on something to appear..


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 5, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> why search else where our ancestors have done told us..
> 
> if your looking for other answers then your chasing your tail..



I wasn't searching for answers.
I was responding to your post where you indicated that you were searching for answers.



1222DANO said:


> i got questions about Athiest and i'm not judging just wanting knowledge..
> 
> just looking for answers i'm not judging just trying to see into the night.


----------



## drippin' rock (Dec 5, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> God has no boundary's set by or implied by man...



Are you saying that because Gandhi sought to do good, it did not matter that he called himself Hindu, he was actually Christian?  If you do good you have to be Christian?


----------



## bullethead (Dec 5, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> No chemist involved.. okay are we gonna stare at some chemicals and wait on something to appear..



It happens every single second of every single day.
Educate yourself.


----------



## 1222DANO (Dec 5, 2013)

So we're standing there and the world is destroyed by fire and brimstone.. 
What are you gonna say? it was just a matter of consequence...

I know what i'll say and it'll be i told you so.. and i'll pay a price but i can't help it..


----------



## 1222DANO (Dec 5, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> Are you saying that because Gandhi sought to do good, it did not matter that he called himself Hindu, he was actually Christian?  If you do good you have to be Christian?




No thats just a man created term to give reason to logic.. 

its all we got that can tell you the truth.. everything that God does is unexplained.. 
the reason you deny is because your trying to make your own logic.. when reality is '' listen to your elders'''


----------



## 1222DANO (Dec 5, 2013)

bullethead said:


> No chemist involved. Chemistry happens without a chemist.



Show me?


----------



## bullethead (Dec 5, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> So we're standing there and the world is destroyed by fire and brimstone..
> What are you gonna say? it was just a matter of consequence...
> 
> I know what i'll say and it'll be i told you so.. and i'll pay a price but i can't help it..



That is your comic book, not ours.


----------



## bullethead (Dec 5, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> Show me?



Rust


----------



## 1222DANO (Dec 5, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Rust




true knowledge comes from God not man... If a man was dumb enough to use something that would rust and deteriorate then let him pay the price.. the knowledge was already given that it would rust.. he can't help that he told you... i mean how long did it take a man to realize that iron would rust?...  if he gives knowledge and you choose not to listen then why did God tell you so? Are you gonna spend your life trying to explain why things rust?


----------



## drippin' rock (Dec 5, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> i do but why complicate.. we've been told...
> 
> why search else where our ancestors have done told us..
> i can't help if your lost.. if your looking for other answers then your chasing your tail.. do you not believe in whats been told to you.?
> ...





1222DANO said:


> true knowledge comes from God not man... If a man was dumb enough to use something that would rust and deteriorate then let him pay the price.. the knowledge was already given that it would rust.. he can't help that he told you... i mean how long did it take a man to realize that iron would rust?...  if he gives knowledge and you choose not to listen then why did God tell you so? Are you gonna spend your life trying to explain why things rust?



Please don't ever stop posting.


----------



## 1222DANO (Dec 5, 2013)

if you wanna explain why things rust and give knowledge and question it, then maybe thats your purpose.. if you wanna receive a true knowledge and better understanding about your life then turn to God he'll tell you if you'll do it.. in a true humble meaning.. He might let you in on some real knowledge other than rust...


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 5, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> the reason you deny is because your trying to make your own logic.. when reality is '' listen to your elders'''



Gandhi was our elder.  Should we listen to him?
Which elders should we listen to?
Should we only listen to elders who are Christian?
Do they also need to be Protestant Christian?
Do they need to be Baptists?


----------



## 1222DANO (Dec 5, 2013)

bullethead said:


> That is your comic book, not ours.




Man i need to know you..

i would almost wanna live next to you '' just to say'' '''i told you so'' 

i got some land if you wanna camp on it..


----------



## drippin' rock (Dec 5, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> Man i need to know you..
> 
> i would almost wanna live next to you '' just to say'' '''i told you so''
> 
> i got some land if you wanna camp on it..



Yelling back Na-nana-na-na as the rapture yanks you upward might result in a sudden drop.  Just sayin'....


----------



## 1222DANO (Dec 5, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Gandhi was our elder.  Should we listen to him?
> Which elders should we listen to?
> Should we only listen to elders who are Christian?
> Do they also need to be Protestant Christian?
> ...


----------



## bullethead (Dec 5, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> true knowledge comes from God not man... If a man was dumb enough to use something that would rust and deteriorate then let him pay the price.. the knowledge was already given that it would rust.. he can't help that he told you... i mean how long did it take a man to realize that iron would rust?...  if he gives knowledge and you choose not to listen then why did God tell you so? Are you gonna spend your life trying to explain why things rust?



Seriously, I am sorry that I stayed in this conversation this long. I apologize for not having the patience for you. I absolutely cannot continue to have a conversation with you.

You have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year


----------



## 1222DANO (Dec 5, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> Yelling back Na-nana-na-na as the rapture yanks you upward might result in a sudden drop.  Just sayin'....



i know i'm willing to pay the price if they'll receive him.. I know my tongue speaks boastful things. i'll lay my head down knowing that he'll forgive me.. its true i am not a liar...


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 5, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> yes Christ birthday but not why we us Santa Claus..
> 
> answer some of those questions please.. i know as mind boggling as they are isn't that the real point of life..





> When do you show your love to your kids,friends,family,strangers?


Every day. However I am not perfect either so some days I may fail to show it properly. Strangers would be a little different. I don't "love" strangers but I try to be kind to them unless they give me a reason to not be kind.


> When do you gather together?


Im not sure if you are talking about gathering together with Atheists or with family. Family would be as often as possible. Ive never "gathered together" with Atheists. I don't gather with anybody based on their belief or non belief of God. There are Atheists I wouldn't want to spend a second of my time with and there are Christians I wouldn't want to spend a second of my time with.


> What force keeps you from becoming a ruler of your mind and doing what you think is right?


I always try to do what I think is right. Yes I have done some wrong things in my life. I consider ruling my mind to be not repeating those wrong things.

If you truly want knowledge about Atheists you are going to have to erase the nonsense about them that you have been taught or are telling yourself and start from scratch. Your belief that you have to believe in God to be able to love, do good things, be a good person etc is just WRONG. That might be too painful to admit or it might cause you to ask yourself some uncomfortable questions but its just a fact. 



> why search else where our ancestors have done told us..
> i can't help if your lost.. if your looking for other answers then your chasing your tail.. do you not believe in whats been told to you.?


Can you think of anything that our ancestors have told us that we now know was just plain wrong, horrible for other groups of people, just based on ignorance etc?  
I sure can.
Bottom line is if it takes a God to make you be a good person then its a good thing you believe in God.
Its kinda sad but still a good thing. There are a whole lot of good, decent, loving people in this world that do not believe in the Christian God. There are also a whole lot of scumbags, child molestors, liars, cheats, and just plain old rotten people who do believe in the Christian God.
Its just a fact whether you want to accept it or not.


----------



## bullethead (Dec 5, 2013)

Walt, take my advice and just let it go.


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 5, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Walt, take my advice and just let it go.


Well I figured it was fair that I answer his questions if I was going to participate.
Where it goes from here will determine if he goes in the "my beliefs have rendered me unable to use my brain on this subject" pile or the "I don't agree with his beliefs but he may have something worth considering" pile.
So far over the years on this forum only one person/Christian has made it into that first pile 
Although if I was a betting man......


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 5, 2013)

> > Originally Posted by 1222DANO View Post
> > Man i need to know you..
> >
> > i would almost wanna live next to you '' just to say'' '''i told you so'' i got some land if you wanna camp on it..
> ...


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 5, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> i've said i guess i'm of KJV religion.. if my bible tells me then i believe it.. i don't listen to man...



You don't listen to man?

You do realize that the Apostle Paul was a man and that Moses was a man and the two of them wrote more of the Bible than any other person, don't you?


----------



## JB0704 (Dec 5, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I have to ask....in a human spin kind of way...
> Will you condemn the books in your library that do not please you to a fiery pit?



No.  Maybe the local library.......


----------



## JB0704 (Dec 5, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> Please don't ever stop posting.





There's one on your team as well.   You gotta admire the dude's conviction, though.


----------



## 1222DANO (Dec 5, 2013)

i can say your right i shouldn't be convicted to try and tell you things that you've done set your mind too... its okay i don't want no enemy's it don't come between me and you.. i don't care really if i'm an idiot a fool, a bad Christian or whatever it be.. i understand where your coming from and don't judge you.. please don't use the new international version to explain me away.. i'm in a pile alright a pile right next to you.. my pile is the same but i know i'm going to be returned to the earth and your pile thinks itself is different and can be explained by other piles..


----------



## 1222DANO (Dec 5, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> You don't listen to man?
> 
> You do realize that the Apostle Paul was a man and that Moses was a man and the two of them wrote more of the Bible than any other person, don't you?




yes i know this i try and open my ears to true knowledge from man.. i do listen to other Christian's i had a man tell me God talked to him in a dream while he was working on a car.. He thought he was crazy but i know he's not.. I don't listen to men that try and change things in their favor to try and become a deity of their own and do good works but leave out everything else to proclaim to be a ruler... If man wants to tell me what God said to them i will try with my best understand what went down.. IF i can't understand and i think its crazy thats okay i'm ignorant to that persons Faith and thats okay i wasn't meant to understand his faith...


----------



## 1222DANO (Dec 5, 2013)

i'm ignorant to your faith and i ask questions to help me understand but i get more questions.. i ask them and you call upon more religions to give me answers.. Just curious write us a book please.. i will read it..


----------



## drippin' rock (Dec 5, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> yes i know this i try and open my ears to true knowledge from man.. i do listen to other Christian's i had a man tell me God talked to him in a dream while he was working on a car.. He thought he was crazy but i know he's not.. I don't listen to men that try and change things in their favor to try and become a deity of their own and do good works but leave out everything else to proclaim to be a ruler... If man wants to tell me what God said to them i will try with my best understand what went down.. IF i can't understand and i think its crazy thats okay i'm ignorant to that persons Faith and thats okay i wasn't meant to understand his faith...



I had a guy tell me he was a prophet one time.  Guess what?  I did not believe him.


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 5, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> i'm ignorant to your faith and i ask questions to help me understand but i get more questions.. i ask them and you call upon more religions to give me answers.. Just curious write us a book please.. i will read it..


Its a fast read....
Atheists don't believe in deities.
The End


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 5, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> yes i know this i try and open my ears to true knowledge from man.. i do listen to other Christian's i had a man tell me God talked to him in a dream while he was working on a car.. He thought he was crazy but i know he's not.. I don't listen to men that try and change things in their favor to try and become a deity of their own and do good works but leave out everything else to proclaim to be a ruler... If man wants to tell me what God said to them i will try with my best understand what went down.. IF i can't understand and i think its crazy thats okay i'm ignorant to that persons Faith and thats okay i wasn't meant to understand his faith...





> I don't listen to men that try and change things in their favor to try and become a deity of their own and do good works but leave out everything else to proclaim to be a ruler...


If this is your view of Atheists why are you asking questions? Are you sure you are being honest about this whole not judging and just wanting information? No No:


----------



## drippin' rock (Dec 5, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> true knowledge comes from God not man... If a man was dumb enough to use something that would rust and deteriorate then let him pay the price.. the knowledge was already given that it would rust.. he can't help that he told you... i mean how long did it take a man to realize that iron would rust?...  if he gives knowledge and you choose not to listen then why did God tell you so? Are you gonna spend your life trying to explain why things rust?



I'm not willing to crawl out of this rabbit hole quite yet. Can you explain why you think it is ignorant of man to use iron?  Or was this a metaphor?

Wouldn't you agree that man's use of iron is a sign of intellect, an intellect you would say was given by God?


----------



## ambush80 (Dec 6, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> No thats just a man created term to give reason to logic..
> 
> its all we got that can tell you the truth.. everything that God does is unexplained..
> the reason you deny is because your trying to make your own logic.. when reality is '' listen to your elders'''



The "elders" thought that rain was the gods crying.


----------



## 660griz (Dec 6, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> i do listen to other Christian's i had a man tell me God talked to him in a dream while he was working on a car..



Never operate machinery while sleeping. No No:


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Dec 6, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> Yelling back Na-nana-na-na as the rapture yanks you upward might result in a sudden drop.  Just sayin'....



That's funny DR.  Inaccurate,  but funny just the same.   Honestly I laughed and that's a good way to start a Friday.


----------



## bullethead (Dec 6, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> I'm not willing to crawl out of this rabbit hole quite yet. Can you explain why you think it is ignorant of man to use iron?  Or was this a metaphor?
> 
> Wouldn't you agree that man's use of iron is a sign of intellect, an intellect you would say was given by God?



The kicker is 1222dano wanted an example of chemistry happening where no chemist was present, I use rust as the example, and he goes off on some tangent about Iron. He never addresses the answers to the questions HE asks!

Coherent conversation just cannot be held sometimes.


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## drippin' rock (Dec 6, 2013)

bullethead said:


> The kicker is 1222dano wanted an example of chemistry happening where no chemist was present, I use rust as the example, and he goes off on some tangent about Iron. He never addresses the answers to the questions HE asks!
> 
> Coherent conversation just cannot be held sometimes.



I would say that is an discussion that cannot be had with a Christian, because the obvious answer to them is God is the ultimate chemist.


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## drippin' rock (Dec 6, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> That's funny DR.  Inaccurate,  but funny just the same.   Honestly I laughed and that's a good way to start a Friday.



Glad to help you start your Friday well.

Will you explain why it is inaccurate?  Is it because when the rapture comes Christians will simply disappear, or do you not agree with the rapture theory?


----------



## 660griz (Dec 6, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> Will you explain why it is inaccurate?



Yes please do.


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## 1222DANO (Dec 6, 2013)

bullethead said:


> The kicker is 1222dano wanted an example of chemistry happening where no chemist was present, I use rust as the example, and he goes off on some tangent about Iron. He never addresses the answers to the questions HE asks!
> 
> Coherent conversation just cannot be held sometimes.





I like dosing with the same medicine i'm given.. i ask questions and get questions... you ask question i give you questions...


i was just asking questions i never got answers too.. i kept getting pointed to my faults and asked more questions.. the only way to handle that is too fight fire with fire... i'm really not judging i understand that Atheist don't believe in NOTHING>> and i just can't rationalize why someone would choose not to believe nothing..


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## 1222DANO (Dec 6, 2013)

i wouldn't even call myself a Christian if that helps, lets just say i'm a Believer..


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## 1222DANO (Dec 6, 2013)

So a Hardcore Athiest 'and i'm just trying to figure this out with ya'll'
would think or Believe not sure, 
The knowledge That explains our existence isn't really real..
The time and place of a person is a matter of consequence..
Do whats good in your own mind and get good results
Do whats bad in your own mind and get bad results..
Whats been done in the past can be explained as a matter of a consequence.. 

help me add to it.. please i'm not being a butt just trying to help explain..


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## 660griz (Dec 6, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> So a Hardcore Athiest


 Atheist is fine. You really can NOT believe any harder.  


> The knowledge That explains our existence isn't really real..


 What knowledge are you referring to?



> The time and place of a person is a matter of consequence..


 Yes. Actions have consequences.


> Do whats good in your own mind and get good results


 Not sure about the get good results. Sometimes you do, sometimes you don't. Good is based on lots of things but, basically, yes. Do what's good. 


> Do whats bad in your own mind and get bad results..


 Don't do what's bad. 


> Whats been done in the past can be explained as a matter of a consequence..


Consequences of past actions. Yes. I believe in those.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 6, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> I like dosing with the same medicine i'm given.. i ask questions and get questions... you ask question i give you questions...
> 
> 
> i kept getting pointed to my faults and asked more questions.. the only way to handle that is too fight fire with fire... i'm really not judging i understand that Atheist don't believe in NOTHING>> and i just can't rationalize why someone would choose not to believe nothing..





> i was just asking questions i never got answers too..


Posts 54, 55 and 113 directly answered, by 3 different people, your original questions.
Then you asked additional questions, got additional answers and you were asked additional questions. That's pretty much how discussion/debate works.


> i kept getting pointed to my faults


You have to understand that you are making statements that are so far from the truth it has to be pointed it. You wanted knowledge. Pointing that out is giving you knowledge.  Don't make those ridiculous statements and there will be nothing to point out. You are fooling yourself that you "don't judge". You have made judgments in a number of your posts. Do you really need somebody to cut and paste them and list them for you to realize you are doing it?
Your mind is filled with what you already believe about Atheists. You aren't capable of gaining knowledge about Atheists at this point because the answers to your questions don't get past what you already think.


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## drippin' rock (Dec 6, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> I like dosing with the same medicine i'm given.. i ask questions and get questions... you ask question i give you questions...
> 
> 
> i was just asking questions i never got answers too.. i kept getting pointed to my faults and asked more questions.. the only way to handle that is too fight fire with fire... i'm really not judging i understand that Atheist don't believe in NOTHING>> and i just can't rationalize why someone would choose not to believe nothing..


If someone "don't believe in nothing", that means they believe in something, right?


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## 1222DANO (Dec 6, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> I had a guy tell me he was a prophet one time.  Guess what?  I did not believe him.



So your saying God doesn't talk to us?
Perhaps its a hard thing to understand each persons faith but anytime i'm told what someone says God done for them i'll listen.. i'm not gonna question his faith.. on the other hand i'm not drinking his cool aid neither..  these are hard things to do but the bible says we must try..

Its mostly about becoming enlightened so the burdens you carry each day that ties you to some form of ''beating yourself up '' .. the things that can weigh us down can be cast to our side..  teaches us how to act and how we  should act.. not judging,not being adulterers, not to kill, be good to kids, it tells you we're gonna do wrong, but when you do wrong it doesn't have to be carried your whole life, you can rise up past it and choose to do good again no matter what wrongs you've done..  

Some guys might be Almost perfect and not realize it.. If their that good of a person naturally then maybe they don't need to be a believer.. They rest their heads knowing that what they do is as right as any mans actions.. The only problem with this theory is, what about their kids and ancestors?, we all know how far a kid can stray from right or wrong.. If the kid only fears his Parents only but yet has no moral code to bind him to listening to his Parents ''because he used his own mind and his judgement of right or wrong'' then what moral code does this child hold... he now listen's to no one, he believes what he does is truly right, even if its destroying his children lives..  So now you've doomed your children to a destructive live of truly never know right from wrong.....


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## 1222DANO (Dec 6, 2013)

theirs ten rules to being a christian, 

could Athiest not take those same rules and come up with some guide lines for their ancestors..


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## WaltL1 (Dec 6, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> So a Hardcore Athiest 'and i'm just trying to figure this out with ya'll'
> would think or Believe not sure,
> The knowledge That explains our existence isn't really real..
> The time and place of a person is a matter of consequence..
> ...





> The knowledge That explains our existence isn't really real..


That isn't knowledge in the sense that its a fact. Its what one group of people BELIEVE. Surely you see the difference right?


> The time and place of a person is a matter of consequence..


You are where you are at the time you are there.


> Do whats good in your own mind and get good results
> Do whats bad in your own mind and get bad results..


Really?


> Whats been done in the past can be explained as a matter of a consequence..


Everything is a matter of consequence. What happens now is a consequence of what you did prior to that.


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## StriperrHunterr (Dec 6, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> If someone "don't believe in nothing", that means they believe in something, right?



Double negatives ARE tricky.


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## 660griz (Dec 6, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> could Athiest not take those same rules and come up with some guide lines for their ancestors..



Isn't it too late to come up with guidelines for ancestors?


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## 660griz (Dec 6, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Double negatives ARE tricky.



Complex math.  negative times a negative


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## WaltL1 (Dec 6, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> theirs ten rules to being a christian,
> 
> could Athiest not take those same rules and come up with some guide lines for their ancestors..


What in the world are you talking about? Do you think Atheism is hereditary or something?????? Guess what, most of us that you are talking to also believed in God at one time too. As did our ancestors and most of our living ancestors still do.. The only rule to being an Atheist is you don't believe in deities. That's it. No more no less.


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## 1222DANO (Dec 6, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> Posts 54, 55 and 113 directly answered, by 3 different people, your original questions.
> Then you asked additional questions, got additional answers and you were asked additional questions. That's pretty much how discussion/debate works.
> 
> You have to understand that you are making statements that are so far from the truth it has to be pointed it. You wanted knowledge. Pointing that out is giving you knowledge.  Don't make those ridiculous statements and there will be nothing to point out. You are fooling yourself that you "don't judge". You have made judgments in a number of your posts. Do you really need somebody to cut and paste them and list them for you to realize you are doing it?
> Your mind is filled with what you already believe about Atheists. You aren't capable of gaining knowledge about Atheists at this point because the answers to your questions don't get past what you already think.




If i'm trying to find knowledge of being about being an Atheist and the only knowledge i can get is what an Atheist tells me..

So when i draw my final conclusion about the knowledge.. then i get how wrong my knowledge is...
If i ask questions that you don't really answer ''more or less blowed them off''.. because they baffled you then why would someone choose to be an Atheist if theirs no knowledge..


----------



## 1222DANO (Dec 6, 2013)

thanks Walt.. sorry to have upset anyone,, i'm really done... 
i have a Mother in-law thats an Atheist i think..


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## WaltL1 (Dec 6, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> So your saying God doesn't talk to us?
> Perhaps its a hard thing to understand each persons faith but anytime i'm told what someone says God done for them i'll listen.. i'm not gonna question his faith.. on the other hand i'm not drinking his cool aid neither..  these are hard things to do but the bible says we must try..
> 
> Its mostly about becoming enlightened so the burdens you carry each day that ties you to some form of ''beating yourself up '' .. the things that can weigh us down can be cast to our side..  teaches us how to act and how we  should act.. not judging,not being adulterers, not to kill, be good to kids, it tells you we're gonna do wrong, but when you do wrong it doesn't have to be carried your whole life, you can rise up past it and choose to do good again no matter what wrongs you've done..
> ...


So what you are saying is every kid who has parents who taught them about God has never done anything wrong and all grow up to be model citizens?
Are you serious?


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## drippin' rock (Dec 6, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> So your saying God doesn't talk to us?
> Perhaps its a hard thing to understand each persons faith but anytime i'm told what someone says God done for them i'll listen.. i'm not gonna question his faith.. on the other hand i'm not drinking his cool aid neither..  these are hard things to do but the bible says we must try..
> 
> Its mostly about becoming enlightened so the burdens you carry each day that ties you to some form of ''beating yourself up '' .. the things that can weigh us down can be cast to our side..  teaches us how to act and how we  should act.. not judging,not being adulterers, not to kill, be good to kids, it tells you we're gonna do wrong, but when you do wrong it doesn't have to be carried your whole life, you can rise up past it and choose to do good again no matter what wrongs you've done..
> ...



Being a good listener is important and is a skill most lack these days I'm afraid.  You are right to listen and not judge. 

Everyone struggles with right and wrong. Everyone seeks ways to lighten their load, be it guilt, despair, stress, etc. The beauty is there are many ways to go about it, and no one way is right for everyone. One person might look to the teachings of Buddha, others to yoga, and some will turn to their version of God.  It all has a place.


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 6, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> thanks Walt.. sorry to have upset anyone,, i'm really done...
> i have a Mother in-law thats an Atheist i think..


I don't think anyone is "upset". I know Im not. 
I also think its a good thing you want to learn more about Atheism. But the honest truth is, in your case, your beliefs wont allow you to learn about Atheism.
And your Mother-in-law being an Atheist or not isn't whats important. Its whether she is a good person or not.


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 6, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> Being a good listener is important and is a skill most lack these days I'm afraid.  You are right to listen and not judge.
> 
> Everyone struggles with right and wrong. Everyone seeks ways to lighten their load, be it guilt, despair, stress, etc. The beauty is there are many ways to go about it, and no one way is right for everyone. One person might look to the teachings of Buddha, others to yoga, and some will turn to their version of God.  It all has a place.


Bingo


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## bullethead (Dec 6, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> If i'm trying to find knowledge of being about being an Atheist and the only knowledge i can get is what an Atheist tells me..
> 
> So when i draw my final conclusion about the knowledge.. then i get how wrong my knowledge is...
> If i ask questions that you don't really answer ''more or less blowed them off''.. because they baffled you then why would someone choose to be an Atheist if theirs no knowledge..



Dano think of an Atheist like this...

You believe in one God right?
Even though people on this planet have worshiped and believed in tens of thousands of other Gods, you cannot bring yourself to believe in any God other than the God you worship.
An Atheist is just like you. The Atheist does not believe in any of the same Gods you do not believe in, but they include one more God on the list that you are unwilling to include.
For all the same reason you think the "other" Gods are not real, Atheists use those same reasons to not believe in your God.
It is not complicated.
You believe in 1 God and do not believe in 20,000 other Gods.
Atheists do not believe in 20,001 gods.


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## 1222DANO (Dec 6, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> I don't think anyone is "upset". I know Im not.
> I also think its a good thing you want to learn more about Atheism. But the honest truth is, in your case, your beliefs wont allow you to learn about Atheism.
> And your Mother-in-law being an Atheist or not isn't whats important. Its whether she is a good person or not.




She trys to do good but is strapped to a recliner all day.. i just wonder if her burdens haven't weighed her down..

i've been exploring my mind and its a crazy world we live..
its funny how someone can go out in the woods and not want to see something that'll eat them. then something scares them to death..

if they go out looking for something that'll eat them.. they'll never find it and be more comfortable..

i think i answered my questions on my life.. through this discussion.. 
 if you can walk and not be afraid of whats around then your good..
if your scared then something will scare you even more..

the balance of good and evil.. i gotta find my own shield and sword to go back into the world unafraid.. if your afraid it'll happen then it will..

the philosophy behind my own existence baffles me..


----------



## drippin' rock (Dec 6, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> i've been exploring my mind and it's crazy



Yes, yes it is.


----------



## 660griz (Dec 6, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> Yes, yes it is.


----------



## 660griz (Dec 6, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> if you can walk and not be afraid of whats around then your good..



Fear is what has kept us alive for a long time. Embrace it. 
Prepare for the worst and hope for the best. 

Why do I like to go in woods that have poisonous snakes and bears and mountain lions? I don't mind being scared. Makes your senses acute. However, I am prepared if things go bad.


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## 1222DANO (Dec 6, 2013)

understood,, it comes down to not worrying about things that you have no control over,, just like me worrying about Atheist and how could they not believe.. Doctors say over 50% of patients have diseases that are stress induced.. how odd a number 50% thats right down the middle.. balance of good and evil is in worrying.. if you fall into worry then your headed to a dark place.. if you don't worry you'll go to a enlightened place.. wow..

if you think i'm crazy then perhaps you haven't looked outside of yourself for answers on life.. it'll happen i'm sure just as god turned the day into night.. we all have to search.. i'm glad it landed where it did..

thanks again.. time to practice what i preach..


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## bullethead (Dec 6, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> understood,, it comes down to not worrying about things that you have no control over,, just like me worrying about Atheist and how could they not believe.. Doctors say over 50% of patients have diseases that are stress induced.. how odd a number 50% thats right down the middle.. balance of good and evil is in worrying.. if you fall into worry then your headed to a dark place.. if you don't worry you'll go to a enlightened place.. wow..
> 
> if you think i'm crazy then perhaps you haven't looked outside of yourself for answers on life.. it'll happen i'm sure just as god turned the day into night.. we all have to search.. i'm glad it landed where it did..
> 
> thanks again.. time to practice what i preach..



Just when we thought you were making progress.........


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Dec 6, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> Yes, yes it is.



Thank jeebus I wasn't drinking when I read this.


----------



## bullethead (Dec 6, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> understood,, it comes down to not worrying about things that you have no control over,, just like me worrying about Atheist and how could they not believe.. Doctors say over 50% of patients have diseases that are stress induced.. how odd a number 50% thats right down the middle.. balance of good and evil is in worrying.. if you fall into worry then your headed to a dark place.. if you don't worry you'll go to a enlightened place.. wow..
> 
> if you think i'm crazy then perhaps you haven't looked outside of yourself for answers on life.. it'll happen i'm sure just as god turned the day into night.. we all have to search.. i'm glad it landed where it did..
> 
> thanks again.. time to practice what i preach..



How can it be split down the middle if doctor's say it is OVER 50%???????????


----------



## Ridge Walker (Dec 6, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> If i'm trying to find knowledge of being about being an Atheist and the only knowledge i can get is what an Atheist tells me..
> 
> So when i draw my final conclusion about the knowledge.. then i get how wrong my knowledge is...
> If i ask questions that you don't really answer ''more or less blowed them off''.. because they baffled you then why would someone choose to be an Atheist if theirs no knowledge..



I have to admit, your posts are indeed baffling.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Dec 6, 2013)

Ridge Walker said:


> I have to admit, your posts are indeed baffling.



If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, what do you do?


----------



## Ridge Walker (Dec 6, 2013)

You gotta baffle 'em with...


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## 660griz (Dec 6, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> understood,, it comes down to not worrying about things that you have no control over



In the immortal words of Bob Marley, "Don't worry...be happy"


----------



## drippin' rock (Dec 6, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, what do you do?



Spend all afternoon posting on the GON Forum?


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## jmharris23 (Dec 6, 2013)

Boy this thread has about covered it all hasnt it? From the origins of our existence to the origins of Santa Clause. I'm not even sure where to jump in


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## StriperrHunterr (Dec 6, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> Spend all afternoon posting on the GON Forum?



HEY! I resemble that remark!


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Dec 6, 2013)

jmharris23 said:


> Boy this thread has about covered it all hasnt it? From the origins of our existence to the origins of Santa Clause. I'm not even sure where to jump in



First floor, of course; women's fashions.


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## drippin' rock (Dec 6, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> HEY! I resemble that remark!



Me too.....


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## WaltL1 (Dec 6, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> She trys to do good but is strapped to a recliner all day.. i just wonder if her burdens haven't weighed her down..
> 
> i've been exploring my mind and its a crazy world we live..
> its funny how someone can go out in the woods and not want to see something that'll eat them. then something scares them to death..
> ...





> She trys to do good


That's what is important. I hope that you can give her credit for that whether she believes the same as you or not. You cant say that about every Mother-in-law.


> i think i answered my questions on my life..


That's great. That's all anybody can try to do.


> i gotta find my own shield and sword to go back into the world unafraid..


If believing in God will help you accomplish that then you should believe in God. But on your journey try to remember your way may not be the answer for someone else who is trying accomplish the same thing.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Dec 6, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> Glad to help you start your Friday well.
> 
> Will you explain why it is inaccurate?  Is it because when the rapture comes Christians will simply disappear, or do you not agree with the rapture theory?



I've been avoiding this thread like the plague and now just because you made me laugh I'm obliged to get drug into this.  I'm gonna answer your question and then I'm out of here for keeps.  

If I'm in the process of being raptured and look back down I can't imagine not having tears in my eyes for the ones that didn't.  See ya and again thanks for the laugh.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Dec 6, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Dano think of an Atheist like this...
> 
> You believe in one God right?
> Even though people on this planet have worshiped and believed in tens of thousands of other Gods, you cannot bring yourself to believe in any God other than the God you worship.
> ...



Bullet, I hear many of you guys espouse this meme quite often, but it's not reasonable and here's why.  

In essence it's stating theist should dismiss God as a fallacy just as they have dismissed other gods as fallacies, but it totally misses the point.  It's like saying to the cops "Well you have dismissed 20,000 people as suspects based on their DNA, the 20,001st is no different."  When in fact not only is the 20,001st different, but turns out to be a perfect match.  What was different about 20, 001?  There was evidence.


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## 1222DANO (Dec 6, 2013)

tell me i don't make it interesting and i'll stop...

i got plenty more where that came from, 
well not plenty more but i can get some more..lol

Knowledge that is, if you need some i can get more..


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## 1222DANO (Dec 6, 2013)

i was on the Political forum but they kicked me off..
i was wanting for the country to send me to China, i believe if they did i could baffle them into thinking they owe us money.. and they'd hug my neck.. but they kept saying something about me not paying attention in school.. I said i read the Bible but that must not qualify me.. Dunno.. 

.. NO WORRY"S REMEMBER....


----------



## ambush80 (Dec 7, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Bullet, I hear many of you guys espouse this meme quite often, but it's not reasonable and here's why.
> 
> In essence it's stating theist should dismiss God as a fallacy just as they have dismissed other gods as fallacies, but it totally misses the point.  It's like saying to the cops "Well you have dismissed 20,000 people as suspects based on their DNA, the 20,001st is no different."  When in fact not only is the 20,001st different, but turns out to be a perfect match.  What was different about 20, 001?  There was evidence.




And this is false because the "evidence" is the same for all of them.  There is no positive "DNA identification".


----------



## bullethead (Dec 7, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Bullet, I hear many of you guys espouse this meme quite often, but it's not reasonable and here's why.
> 
> In essence it's stating theist should dismiss God as a fallacy just as they have dismissed other gods as fallacies, but it totally misses the point.  It's like saying to the cops "Well you have dismissed 20,000 people as suspects based on their DNA, the 20,001st is no different."  When in fact not only is the 20,001st different, but turns out to be a perfect match.  What was different about 20, 001?  There was evidence.



Oh but the people that worship those 20,000 other Gods can lay the same claim as you....that their God is a perfect match for them and the other 20,000 are not.
You are all in the same boat for having evidence. Unless you have some God DNA.....


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Dec 8, 2013)

Look its a ridiculous argument and based on a fallacy.  It basically states that because 20,000 square pegs won't fit in a round hole one round one won't.


----------



## bullethead (Dec 8, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Look its a ridiculous argument and based on an fallacy.  It basically states that because 20,000 square pegs won't fit in a round hole one round one won't.



There are no pegs. There are no holes. The argument based on a fallacy IS religion.
You are asserting YOUR religion/god is the only one that stands apart. It does for you, but when looked at along with all the others there are no differences. The people that worship another god reject yours for the same reasons you reject theirs.
There is no police lineup, no DNA, there is no analogy when comparing real and make believe.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Dec 8, 2013)

Again, it makes no more sense than you telling me that because I rejected many women prior to marrying my wife, I should reject my wife, because YOU have rejected the idea of marriage.  Like I said,  It's ridiculous.


----------



## bullethead (Dec 9, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Again, it makes no more sense than you telling me that because I rejected many women prior to marrying my wife, I should reject my wife, because YOU have rejected the idea of marriage.  Like I said,  It's ridiculous.



Unless you claim any of those women are invisible, are responsible for creation, live in a realm beyond our laws of nature, have died and been resurrected, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc X10....then NO, what I am saying is not the same at all.


----------



## 660griz (Dec 9, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Again, it makes no more sense than you telling me that because I rejected many women prior to marrying my wife, I should reject my wife, because YOU have rejected the idea of marriage.  Like I said,  It's ridiculous.



What about telling you the reason you happened to choose your wife is based on where you were born and consequences of actions. 
Just like why you chose your current God. I know you didn't 'sample' women from all over the globe before settling on your current wife and you didn't sample all the religions either.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Dec 9, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Unless you claim any of those women are invisible, are responsible for creation, live in a realm beyond our laws of nature, have died and been resurrected, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc X10....then NO, what I am saying is not the same at all.



Sure it is.  What gives you the authority to define what others definition of a wife should be, particularly when you deny the concept of marriage.  Are you telling me you don't see the intellectual hypocrisy of that?   Others can't intelligently believe in God because they don't accept your, an Atheist's, definition of God?    It's more and more laughable the more you try to defend it.


----------



## bullethead (Dec 9, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Sure it is.  What gives you the authority to define what others definition of a wife should be, particularly when you deny the concept of marriage.  Are you telling me you don't see the intellectual hypocrisy of that?   Others can't intelligently believe in God because they don't accept your, an Atheist's, definition of God?    It's more and more laughable the more you try to defend it.



Wait a minute Mr Twister......
Don't wrap me up in your convoluted scenario that is off base at trying to link make believe scenarios.

I am talking about 20,000+ different gods and the people that believe in them and the differences why they all believe differently.
YOU are the one trying to tie in some ridiculous analogies that cannot compare to make believe deities.

MY point is...and has been..... You reject all the other deities for the same reasons that people who believe in those deities reject yours. YOU say there is only one god...YOUR God, and those other people say NO NO NO....your God does not exist....their God exists. It is a religious peeing match. I just say none of the gods exist.

Nobody is saying no other women exist except for the one you married.
You are using REAL living people when you try to include "other women" in your analogy. I cannot disagree with your line of thinking regarding REAL living people.
BUT
In some sort of twisted way you are trying to use REAL living people along side invisible fake made up beliefs to make your point. 
You always assert that YOUR God is "real". 
Well people that worship over 20,000 other Gods think theirs are just as "real".
Either you think theirs are just as real as yours OR you don't.
If you do not not think these other Gods are just as real as yours then you must have reasons why you reject their existence.
If you have reasons why you reject their god(s).....those reasons will be some of the same reasons why those other people that worship those other God(s) reject your God.

I don't care how many real actual tangible scenarios you throw in this conversation.........the conversation is about non real, non actual, non tangible Gods and why YOU reject other Gods and why people reject your God. And why an atheist can reject them all.


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## bullethead (Dec 9, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Sure it is.  What gives you the authority to define what others definition of a wife should be, particularly when you deny the concept of marriage.  Are you telling me you don't see the intellectual hypocrisy of that?   Others can't intelligently believe in God because they don't accept your, an Atheist's, definition of God?    It's more and more laughable the more you try to defend it.



I am not defining what a wife should be. I do not deny the concept of marriage.
Those are the things you assert.

In your theoretical scenario we would have 20,000 women.
You chose to marry one of them based off of what makes you feel the best.
Those other 19,999 women all find a husband based off of the same criteria.
You and all of those 19,999 other husbands are happy.
There is a reason you did not marry any of those other 19,999 women.... and there are reasons none of the 19,999 guys other guys married your wife.
Can you give us some reasons why you did not marry another and they did not marry your wife?

Take into account there is one more guy out there that didn't find the 19,999 women to fit his likes and he also did not find your (I am sure wonderful) wife to his likes either. None of the potential candidates were a fit. You and this guy can sit down and discuss why those 19,999 women were not a fit for either of you but he can also tell you why your wife is not a fit for him either. He still has a lot of fun and leads a good life but doesn't want to settle down. None of the women were a fit for him.

Remember, ALL of those 20,000 women that became wives ARE real people. They exist.



Now lets apply that to Gods.

You are competing with 19,999 other people that each believe in a different god than not only you but each other.
You each found your match(like with wives) and each are happy with your choice but also can find reasons why you do not think the next guy is worshiping the "correct" God.

Can you give us some reasons why you do not worship those other Gods?

Again, there is guy #20,001
He does not believe in the 19,999 Gods you do not believe in but he also does not believe in the God you do believe in. He is no different than you for not believing in those 19,999 other Gods. You and him can sit down and agree on many of the same reasons why each of you dismiss those other Gods...his difference is that he goes One God further and dismisses yours too.
He still has a lot of fun, leads a good life, but doesn't want to settle down. None of those gods, including your God, are a fit for him either.

20,000 Gods and not one of them any more real than the next.


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## SemperFiDawg (Dec 9, 2013)

Never mind brother.  Just keep using the meme.


----------



## bullethead (Dec 9, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Never mind brother.  Just keep using the meme.



Your done here too huh?


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## bullethead (Dec 9, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Never mind brother.  Just keep using the meme.



The quote has been around long before the meme.


“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”

â€• Stephen Roberts


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## bullethead (Dec 9, 2013)

Another goodie

 Bertrand Russell - British philosopher / mathematician / rationalist

"I do not pretend to be able to prove that there is no God. I equally cannot prove that Satan is a fiction. The Christian god may exist; so may the gods of Olympus, or of ancient Egypt, or of Babylon. But no one of these hypotheses is more probable than any other: they lie outside the region of even probable knowledge, and therefore there is no reason to consider any of them."


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## TripleXBullies (Dec 9, 2013)

Guys... there are two people that should be blocked...


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## SemperFiDawg (Dec 9, 2013)

bullethead said:


> The quote has been around long before the meme.
> 
> 
> “I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”
> ...



Philosophically speaking it makes a category mistake, and most people intuitively realize it even if they are unable label it as such. Educated atheist distance themselves from this meme because of that.  As you correctly note, the original quote is from Roberts, however Dawkins borrowed it in his book The God Delusion, much to the dismay and ire of educated Athiest, because it gave athiesm another black eye.  But as I said, by all means please continue to bandy it about.  It does you justice.


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## bullethead (Dec 9, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Philosophically speaking it makes a category mistake, and most people intuitively realize it even if they are unable label it as such.


And the mistake is....



SemperFiDawg said:


> Educated atheist distance themselves from this meme because of that.


And their names and education are (drum roll).....


SemperFiDawg said:


> As you correctly note, the original quote is from Roberts, however Dawkins borrowed it in his book The God Delusion, much to the dismay and ire of educated Athiest, because it gave athiesm another black eye.


More assertions without so much as an example to back it up.


SemperFiDawg said:


> But as I said, by all means please continue to bandy it about.  It does you justice.


Well gee thanks SFD. It has held you at bay all day so I think I'll use it more often. Maybe I'll just start a  "notable atheist quotes" thread and post that quote over and over till I feel better.  But I have a feeling after you cannot back up what you asserted above there will be no need for a self feel good thread.....this one will do it for me.


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## SemperFiDawg (Dec 10, 2013)

bullethead said:


> And the mistake is....
> 
> 
> And their names and education are (drum roll).....
> ...



Edward Feser
"One of the best contemporary writers on philosophy" National Review

"A terrific writer" Damian Thompson, Daily Telegraph

"Feser... has the rare and enviable gift of making philosophical argument compulsively readable" Sir Anthony Kenny, Times Literary Supplement

A reader calls attention to Bill Vallicella’s reply to what might be called the “one god further” objection to theism.  Bill sums up the objection as follows:

The idea, I take it, is that all gods are on a par, and so, given that everyone is an atheist with respect to some gods, one may as well make a clean sweep and be an atheist with respect to all gods. You don't believe in Zeus or in a celestial teapot. Then why do you believe in the God of Isaac, Abraham, and Jacob?

Or as the Common Sense Atheism blog used to proclaim proudly on its masthead:

When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

I see that that blog has now removed this one-liner, which is perhaps a sign that intellectual progress is possible even among New Atheist types.  Because while your average “Internet Infidel” seems to regard the “one god further” objection as devastatingly clever, it is in fact embarrassingly inept, a sign of the extreme decadence into which secularist “thought” has fallen in the Age of Dawkins. 




Atheism Analyzed
A former 40 year Atheist analyzes Atheism, without resorting to theism, deism, or fantasy.
***
If You Don't Value Truth, Then What DO You Value?
***
If we say that the sane can be coaxed and persuaded to rationality, and we say that rationality presupposes logic, then what can we say of those who actively reject logic?
***
Atheists have an obligation to give reasons in the form of logic and evidence for rejecting Theist theories.

Saturday, November 22, 2008
Dawkins = Fraud
I feel it necessary to repeat that: Dawkins = Fraud

Before Richard Dawkins hurts anyone else, it is time to call him by his characteristics. He is a fraud. He is a confidence man. He is not competent as either scientist or philosopher much less logician. He is a danger to those who aren’t trained to spot fraudulent thought processes. It is time to call him out.

Dawkins has certainly published a lot of stuff. Some of it was called science, but was actually just fatuous speculation. The popularity that he enjoys comes not from any brilliant scientific experimental discovery, but from his willingness to step far outside the realms of experimental empiricism (or even forensics) and to make truth statements based on no evidence whatsoever. (That is the definition of Philosophical Materialism, after all). Beyond that he is absolutely willing to condemn those who think outside the bounds of his particular flavor of Philosophical Materialism. It is his excoriations and intolerance of the non-Brights, (the non-Dawkinsian Elites) that have made him the prince of Atheism… certainly not his science, much less his logic. His false veneer of “science” provides the excuse that is needed by the Atheist community which has no other justification for existing. 

Dawkins’ influence amongst the ill-educated is far beyond his personal self-image as a deathless philosopher. His function is more of an agitator, an obfuscateur, a rational deviant waylaying sophomores. 

I invite any seeker who has any questions about Dawkins and his panoply of fallacy to query me here. We will investigate any or all of the “God Delusion” or any of the Dawkins “science”, using known logical and rational methods, which will be outlined in full – something that Dawkins dares not ever do......

Thanks for these questions!

One Less God:
This Atheist argument is known as the “one less god” argument, and it is called a Category Error Fallacy. A Category Error Fallacy is the ascription of incorrect characteristics to one of the objects of discussion (sort of like comparing apples and oranges). In this case it is ascribing “atheism” to a Christian’s non-belief in say, Zeus.

Atheism is most correctly described as being based in Philosophical Materialism, which is the denial of non-tangible, non-material realities. (While some Atheists deny this, none are able to refute it.) So the real comparison being made is between a Philosophical Materialist, and a Non-Philosophical Materialist. These are antithetical, they are opposites, and are not the same at all.

The Christian is in no way comparable to a Philosophical Materialist, who believes that nothing exists in any reality except that which is physically tangible. The Christian is most definitely a theist who believes in a rational creator for the rational universe - which creator is not Zeus.

The statement that Christians are “merely atheistic of all the same gods as atheists, except for one” is both incorrect and absurd. If it is confusing it is because of its basis in the Category Error Fallacy (also known in some quarters as the Mereological fallacy).

Orbiting Teapot:
As for the famous Bertrand Russell orbiting teapot, we have a classical example of the Red Herring Fallacy. Here’s the gambit: “I can’t prove there is no god; I also can’t prove that there is no orbiting teapot. I have no need to believe that there is an orbiting teapot; therefore I have no need to believe there is a god.”

The fallacy is in comparing the obviously absurd (completely improbable) imaginary orbiting teapot to the necessity of having a cause for the Big Bang. The Big Bang is NOT a figment of anyone’s imagination. Moreover, the Big Bang is an effect requiring a cause that is outside of our ability to define or understand it empirically. And the creation of rational laws governing the behavior of the universe suggest (strongly) a rational cause for them, as well as for the universe itself. As opposed to the orbiting teapot, these have a high probability.

The orbiting teapot is a dodge created specifically to divert the discussion away from the logical probability for these characteristics of a creator for the universe, by comparing with a completely improbable imaginary ruse. As a dodge, an avoidance mechanism, it is a fallacy which is known as the Red Herring Fallacy. In a sense it is related to the Category Error Fallacy, also.

Great questions. If my answers aren’t clear let me know, I will try again



There's much more out there on this.  I invite you to look for yourself, but I would rather that you follow your own suggestion and post it at the very top of your notable atheist quotes thread.  It would really set the tone for the thread so to speak.


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## 660griz (Dec 10, 2013)

I guess it speaks to the quote that such esteemed 'philosophers' would give it so much air time. 

Most everyone that has heard it already knows the faults. They really don't require pages and pages to point out.

1) If you believe in even 1 God you are not an atheist.
2) It has a monotheist slant. If a person believes in 12 Gods, one less God would be 11 and still makes em a theist. 

However, what these so called GREAT minds have missed is...well...THE POINT!


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## 1222DANO (Dec 10, 2013)

the more i think about it, its both scary and awesome the way we're all designed. 

What point do you just decide to be Athiest?
perhaps in your darkest hours. maybe not but just saying.
when do you choose to be a Christian in your en - lightened hours.. or your finest hour..

what about the people who are both Athiest and Christians at the same time.. 
If their out partying, abusing themselves then they party at sunset when its not light or dark.. 
Most will say they believe in GOD and are probably going to church in the morning.. 
is it a fight over dark and light?
I believe we all serve his purpose no matter what we deem ourselves to be or not to be. 

So if i said a Christian could be Athiest wouldn't really be a wrong statement if their out doing anything thing that God said was wrong.

If God has done said it was wrong and you choose to do it anyways doesn't that make you a non believer or Athiest..


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## TripleXBullies (Dec 10, 2013)

660griz said:


> I guess it speaks to the quote that such esteemed 'philosophers' would give it so much air time.
> 
> Most everyone that has heard it already knows the faults. They really don't require pages and pages to point out.
> 
> ...




Just stop........


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## bullethead (Dec 10, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Edward Feser
> "One of the best contemporary writers on philosophy" National Review
> 
> "A terrific writer" Damian Thompson, Daily Telegraph
> ...



I don't have the time needed right now to get to this but I will surely have a reply for you tonight.

I am going to have to research:

Edward Feser....

and

A former 40yr Atheist....But I don't know his/her name or how educated this former atheist is...

Don't worry though, I will sift through this mountain of education and get back to you....


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## WaltL1 (Dec 10, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> the more i think about it, its both scary and awesome the way we're all designed.
> 
> What point do you just decide to be Athiest?
> perhaps in your darkest hours. maybe not but just saying.
> ...





> the more i think about it, its both scary and awesome the way we're all designed.


It is a little scary how fragile we actually are when you consider how easily the simplest things can kill us.


> What point do you just decide to be Athiest?


I personally don't think I fit under the definition of Atheist. Maybe Agnostic. I leave open the possibility of a god until science proves otherwise. Or until a god is proven to exist. I was raised Christian however after years of studying the Bible I have come to the conclusion its completely man made and the inspired word of no-one. But that doesn't mean there couldn't be a god.


> perhaps in your darkest hours


Based on what a number of Christians have said in here, their darkest hours are when they became Christians.


> what about the people who are both Athiest and Christians at the same time..


I don't think that's possible.


> when do you choose to be a Christian in your en - lightened hours.. or your finest hour..


Neither. It was forced upon me as a child.


> If their out partying, abusing themselves then they party at sunset when its not light or dark..
> Most will say they believe in GOD and are probably going to church in the morning..


Yeah very hypocritical isn't it.


> So if i said a Christian could be Athiest wouldn't really be a wrong statement if their out doing anything thing that God said was wrong.


That doesn't make them an Atheist it makes them a hypocritical Christian. But if they believe a god exists even though they are being bad then they aren't an Atheist.


> If God has done said it was wrong and you choose to do it anyways doesn't that make you a non believer or Athiest.


Same answer as above.

Good questions.


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## 1222DANO (Dec 10, 2013)

What if i said heaven was here on earth>?

think about it, 

if the ones in church already have what they would consider to be the best life possible then in away their in their own version of heaven..

if ones not happy with where his life is and the evil he had created and wants to do better then to make that possible he humbles himself in a true meaningful way to wash away those burdens and to rise up as a new man.. when he does this if he gives into temptations of before he'll return back into his own he11-.. if he truly changes then he could receive the life that he wanted which would be his version of Heaven.. his soul would be at rest no longer striving to do better.. he'd be peaceful..

that's wild stuff


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## TripleXBullies (Dec 10, 2013)

Is that a new religion???



1222DANO said:


> What if i said heaven was here on earth>?
> 
> think about it,
> 
> ...


----------



## 1222DANO (Dec 10, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Is that a new religion???






sometimes we miss the whole of things chasing after money or gold.. says this in the bible


why would a man thats living a good honest life need to return to a congregation week in and week out to serve his own needs? when he's already happy with himself, is he just their to show he's a good man?

what about those that already got peace in their lives could just be happy with their friends and family in church.. that way the true saints and believers could go onto helping save other souls. that need to be saved and pull them from He11.. 
Then the attention could be pulled away from the peaceful ones and placed on the tormented.. 

may not be dunno it just comes out my mind.. I've read the bible and been around it my whole life and this is what I've been given and wanted to share... 


the question you have to ask,

Does this sound correct or not..

its the KJV religion. i guess its where i got it..


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Dec 10, 2013)

Dano.  In all honestly I would suggest you find a strong Christian role model, whom you respect, maybe in your local church and ask him these questions.


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 10, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> What if i said heaven was here on earth>?
> 
> think about it,
> 
> ...


Careful, you would be surprised as to how close that is to an Atheist/Agnostic way of thinking


----------



## 1222DANO (Dec 10, 2013)

shouldn't a good man be out doing his good works on Sunday with his family and friends.. why forsake everyone around them to go sit in church on Sunday morning just to be there if nothing is wrong? its a day of rest it says.. if he's peaceful in life he should be sharing his peace..

If he's tormented then he should go pray about it at the altar>?

don't be mistaken i'm no Atheist i believe fully in the power of God i've seen it to many times. i still see it daily in peoples lives but they don't..


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## 1222DANO (Dec 10, 2013)

one last thing now that i think about it.. you guys believe in the power of God more than any cause you took the value of 1 GOD and multiplied it by the value of 20,000 Gods.. So in reality theirs power in that cause you say the power of God isn't 1 but 20,000 times stronger..


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## ambush80 (Dec 10, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> one last thing now that i think about it.. you guys believe in the power of God more than any cause you took the value of 1 GOD and multiplied it by the value of 20,000 Gods.. So in reality theirs power in that cause you say the power of God isn't 1 but 20,000 times stronger..



Sorry, Dano, but I'm not a math doctor......


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## WaltL1 (Dec 10, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> shouldn't a good man be out doing his good works on Sunday with his family and friends.. why forsake everyone around them to go sit in church on Sunday morning just to be there if nothing is wrong? its a day of rest it says.. if he's peaceful in life he should be sharing his peace..
> 
> If he's tormented then he should go pray about it at the altar>?
> 
> don't be mistaken i'm no Atheist i believe fully in the power of God i've seen it to many times. i still see it daily in peoples lives but they don't..





> don't be mistaken i'm no Atheist


I can promise you that isn't something you need to be worried about


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## WaltL1 (Dec 10, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> one last thing now that i think about it.. you guys believe in the power of God more than any cause you took the value of 1 GOD and multiplied it by the value of 20,000 Gods.. So in reality theirs power in that cause you say the power of God isn't 1 but 20,000 times stronger..





> cause you took the value of 1 GOD


An atheist would have to believe in that one god. That would make him something other than an Atheist.
0 gods x 0 powers x 20,000 = ?


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## bullethead (Dec 10, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Edward Feser
> "One of the best contemporary writers on philosophy" National Review
> 
> "A terrific writer" Damian Thompson, Daily Telegraph
> ...



So break this down for me....

Is Edward Feser your "educated atheist"?

Would an example of a  Category Error Fallacy be stating that material evidence for a  Transcendent Being exists???
I am starting to get the hang of this fallacy thing I think!


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## TripleXBullies (Dec 10, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Dano.  In all honestly I would suggest you find a strong Christian role model, whom you respect, maybe in your local church and ask him these questions.



Because you've got it WRONG Dano!! Take it from SFD!


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## 1222DANO (Dec 10, 2013)

oh i see i miss read the 20,000 god thing.  sorry i was wrong..

its good to search things and sometimes be wrong but the ending will be your final answer.. i don't mind being wrong but i do mind just being.. only the fact that you don't know me can i rethink what I've been taught to become my own person.. i'm not a clone.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 10, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> oh i see i miss read the 20,000 god thing.  sorry i was wrong..
> 
> its good to search things and sometimes be wrong but the ending will be your final answer.. i don't mind being wrong but i do mind just being.. only the fact that you don't know me can i rethink what I've been taught to become my own person.. i'm not a clone.


Completely agree with you. Sometimes we are taught things out of fear or ignorance. Sometimes what we are taught is true. The only way to find out is to learn for ourselves.


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## 1222DANO (Dec 10, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> sometimes we miss the whole of things chasing after money or gold.. says this in the bible
> 
> 
> why would a man thats living a good honest life need to return to a congregation week in and week out to serve his own needs? when he's already happy with himself, is he just their to show he's a good man?
> ...



i mean think about if the bible teaches against greed and all things pertaining to the thought of money being wrong..

wouldn't it be wrong to think that your gonna walk on streets of gold?

have mansions?

the very things it points to as wrong.


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## 1222DANO (Dec 10, 2013)

Thanks ya'll i knew you had a purpose.. i needed someone who didn't believe anything to ask these questions to..


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## gemcgrew (Dec 10, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> Thanks ya'll i knew you had a purpose.. i needed someone who didn't believe anything to ask these questions to..


You gotta love him.


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 10, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> Thanks ya'll i knew you had a purpose.. i needed someone who didn't believe anything to ask these questions to..


Aw and you were doing so good before this. Into the ignorant pile you go.


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## JB0704 (Dec 11, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> Aw and you were doing so good before this. Into the ignorant pile you go.



Thing is.....I think the dude was being sincere  hard to tell with him, though.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 11, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Thing is.....I think the dude was being sincere  hard to tell with him, though.


This one I can  give the benefit of doubt -


> i needed someone who didn't believe anything to ask these questions to..


This one Im having a hard time attributing to poor communication skills -


> Thanks ya'll i knew you had a purpose


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## JB0704 (Dec 11, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> This one Im having a hard time attributing to poor communication skills -



Yea, I can see that.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 11, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Yea, I can see that.





> Thanks ya'll i knew you had a purpose


For me that simple statement says volumes about religion and could be used as a billboard for why I no longer believe in religion. On this forum Ive stated many times that I separate God from religion. But if religion is the only thing I have to tell me about God and being a Christian, and it is, I personally have to question/doubt/disagree the entire thing.


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## JB0704 (Dec 11, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> For me that simple statement says volumes about religion and could be used as a billboard for why I no longer believe in religion. On this forum Ive stated many times that I separate God from religion. But if religion is the only thing I have to tell me about God and being a Christian, and it is, I personally have to question/doubt/disagree the entire thing.



This could be a whole 'nother thread.  There is a lot to be said about it.  But, while I am religious to the extent that I have faith, I try to seperate the two, so that I am not confused in what I am believing.....if that makes sense.

For instance, many religious traditions are simply things we do because they have always been done......Songs first, then preaching, then invitation to music.  Faith is what drives you to the religious service.

As far as the condescending tone of some religious people, Jesus dealt with that too


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## SemperFiDawg (Dec 11, 2013)

Dano.  If you sincerely have questions about God, Christianity or Religion, this isn't the best place to get the answers.  Most of these guys on this forum are vehemently opposed to all three.  You are not going to get an unbiased answer from them regarding those subjects.   

Again I would suggest that you direct your questions to someone you personally know and is a mature Christian.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 11, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> This could be a whole 'nother thread.  There is a lot to be said about it.  But, while I am religious to the extent that I have faith, I try to seperate the two, so that I am not confused in what I am believing.....if that makes sense.
> 
> For instance, many religious traditions are simply things we do because they have always been done......Songs first, then preaching, then invitation to music.  Faith is what drives you to the religious service.
> 
> As far as the condescending tone of some religious people, Jesus dealt with that too


Sent you a PM


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## JB0704 (Dec 11, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> Sent you a PM



Just replied


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## drippin' rock (Dec 11, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> An atheist would have to believe in that one god. That would make him something other than an Atheist.
> 0 gods x 0 powers x 20,000 = ?



3?


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## WaltL1 (Dec 11, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> 3?


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