# Breeding for $$$



## waterdogs (Apr 4, 2012)

I have noticed on here lately that there are alot of labs for sell . As I read some of them, I am wondering if its about the money or they just aren't educated on the health clearance. I see on there where nothing is mentioned about parents being checked for hips, elbows, eyes, EIC, CNM. Breed to better the breed, not pass on bad genes. YEs, I have all these test done on my lab, and they are on the OFA web sight to see, As well as the sire and dam of my dog and past generations. To each their own but I have spent alot of money on testing so when I do breed there are no problems.


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## Turkey Trax (Apr 4, 2012)

waterdogs said:


> I have noticed on here lately that there are alot of labs for sell . As I read some of them, I am wondering if its about the money or they just aren't educated on the health clearance. I see on there where nothing is mentioned about parents being checked for hips, elbows, eyes, EIC, CNM. Breed to better the breed, not pass on bad genes. YEs, I have all these test done on my lab, and they are on the OFA web sight to see, As well as the sire and dam of my dog and past generations. To each their own but I have spent alot of money on testing so when I do breed there are no problems.



there should be a similar set up as on RTF that dogs listed for sale must have health clearances posted.


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## Hairy Dawg (Apr 5, 2012)

I agree 100% with everything stated. I am in the process of getting everything tested now. We've done hips, elbows, CERF, & cardiac. OFA is taking their sweet time about getting back to me with the results of the hips & elbows, but the hips have been listed on their site as good. Once we get the EIC test done, we'll be at about $600.00 invested in health clearances. If & when we do pass our clearances, and he's cleared to breed, I won't breed him to a female unless she's had her clearances as well. I want to make sure that I don't contribute to any problems that have plagued the boykin line.


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## Unicoidawg (Apr 5, 2012)

They should not be selling them here........

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=577128


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## Folsom (Apr 5, 2012)

I think he is talking about the market place.

I believe it is a combination of a quick buck and not being educated enough to know better.


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## waterdogs (Apr 5, 2012)

Folsom said:


> I think he is talking about the market place.
> 
> I believe it is a combination of a quick buck and not being educated enough to know better.



Yep, I should have stated that about the Market place.


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## JuliaH (Apr 7, 2012)

There are plenty of folks out there who believe that breeding animals is all about the $$.... maybe for some livestock there is $$ to be made, but that is a different life than breeding for the betterment of a breed, breeding to keep and/or increase the hunt in a good hunting dog, etc.

And often those folks come and go as they find out that their pups have low values as compared to better dogs in the breed they have chosen... 

It is still a buyer beware world though because often buyers don't know the difference either...

Julia



Folsom said:


> I think he is talking about the market place.
> 
> I believe it is a combination of a quick buck and not being educated enough to know better.


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## TripleXBullies (Apr 13, 2012)

Money in breeding dogs? I'm about $50k in the hole


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## JuliaH (Apr 13, 2012)

Ditto here!!  People who think you can breed and make lots of money outta try it sometime, with the caveat.... If you do it, do it right!



TripleXBullies said:


> Money in breeding dogs? I'm about $50k in the hole


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## ngaduck (Apr 14, 2012)

Turkey Trax said:


> there should be a similar set up as on RTF that dogs listed for sale must have health clearances posted.



Then there would be no dogs for sale which isn't a bad thing. As stated, it should be for the betterment of the breed, not because "my lab is a good hunter and is BIG." Or we could all just get labradoodles since none of this stuff doesn't affect them. They are such versatile dogs and if one parent is a "good hunter" then they all will be.


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## redman2006 (Apr 19, 2012)

waterdogs said:


> I have noticed on here lately that there are alot of labs for sell . As I read some of them, I am wondering if its about the money or they just aren't educated on the health clearance. I see on there where nothing is mentioned about parents being checked for hips, elbows, eyes, EIC, CNM. Breed to better the breed, not pass on bad genes. YEs, I have all these test done on my lab, and they are on the OFA web sight to see, As well as the sire and dam of my dog and past generations. To each their own but I have spent alot of money on testing so when I do breed there are no problems.



I agree 100%!!!
It is so frustrating when clients come in after purchase and we have to discuss these things.  People see a $200 lab and a $800+ and go cheap.  They will pay for it with medical later unless they happen to be very lucky.  In the 15 years that you have that dog, the difference in purchase price will be very small.

A crippled dog at 2 years of age, or a blind one, or a dog with a heart condition is a terrible thing.  Heartbreaking, expensive, and un-necessary.

Meeting the breed standard and bettering the breed should always be the goal.  If the dogs don't fit that, they don't need to be bred.

Good luck trying to convince most people though. I do appriciate that you and some other good breeders here try to educate people when they ask questions.  

In all sincerity, THANK YOU!


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## grouper throat (Apr 19, 2012)

I could think of a million easier ways to make more profit with less aggravation than raising pups for money. I'm also from an area where alot of money can be made off good hunting dogs and it still doesn't seem worth it to me.


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## flhunter82 (May 8, 2012)

we breed for our own pups and train them. Now how much I sell him for when he turns out to be a good dog is a whole different ball game. You actually come out a lot better. When I did sell pups it was very rare if I got the right pick when I picked em, so now we keep all of them till we find out which make it and which get culled.


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## Wild Turkey (May 8, 2012)

I could make far more money building kennels for wanna be breeders than breeding. You gotta do it for the love of the animals not the money. Because its a loosing deal.


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## JuliaH (May 8, 2012)

If you don't breed for the love of the animals (whatever they may be) it is not only a losing deal, it is unfair to the animals...



Wild Turkey said:


> I could make far more money building kennels for wanna be breeders than breeding. You gotta do it for the love of the animals not the money. Because its a loosing deal.



Culled as in sold or culled as in given away, or culled the old fashioned way?  I agree with keeping the pick if I want dogs of my own breeding to continue with. I agree with keeping pups thru some training if needed. But there are some interesting thoughts on culling... just looking for more clarification 



> (quoting flhunter82) When I did sell pups it was very rare if I got the right pick when I picked em, so now we keep all of them till we find out which make it and which get culled.


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## Folsom (May 8, 2012)

There is money in breeding the right pups. Why would some people be doing it for year, and it's not because they are breaking even and losing money. The last three pups I have bought were $1,000-$1,200 and the smallest litter was 10. You can't tell me that those breeders lost money. While they may not have made enough on the litter to put their kid through college, but they definitely did not go in the hole either.


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## JuliaH (May 9, 2012)

There may be some, but if you are feeding good food, caring for veterinary needs (basic shots, etc) and purchasing good breeding stock or raising them from purchased dogs, sending them to training or campaigning them (in my case Field Trials and Hunt Tests) there is about enough left over to feed during the rest of the year... 

So, a lot depends on what one is doing. There are shows or testing or competitions for many sporting breeds. Those are not free  and for a good breeder, you will find that they do hunt/test/trial/campaign their best dogs so that they better the line of dogs. Using them tells you which dogs are going to give you the best pups, which dogs to stand at stud, which dogs to give away because they just don't make the grade, etc.

Also, let's say you just hunt your dogs... everything bad that can happen to them is not free. Veterinary costs skyrocket if you have to have a C-Section for a planned litter and mother dog in trouble. That also brings in emergency visit costs.  Or one gets snake bit bad and needs the vet (I know some handle this on their own but just in case....)

Sure, the $$ coming in to the breeder's hands looks good up front, but you have to realize the costs, and those costs are there all the time. 

Now, if folks are puppy mills, that is another whole ball of yarn that I don't even want to think about here...

Julia



Folsom said:


> There is money in breeding the right pups. Why would some people be doing it for year, and it's not because they are breaking even and losing money. The last three pups I have bought were $1,000-$1,200 and the smallest litter was 10. You can't tell me that those breeders lost money. While they may not have made enough on the litter to put their kid through college, but they definitely did not go in the hole either.


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## redman2006 (May 10, 2012)

Folsom said:


> There is money in breeding the right pups. Why would some people be doing it for year, and it's not because they are breaking even and losing money. The last three pups I have bought were $1,000-$1,200 and the smallest litter was 10. You can't tell me that those breeders lost money. While they may not have made enough on the litter to put their kid through college, but they definitely did not go in the hole either.



But that was one litter.  What about the one with two pups?  The pups get too big because they are the only ones, she can't have them and she has a c-section.  There went every bit of profit and then some.  That dog was campaigned, OFA'ed, CERFed, fed, raised for two years, trained, provided vet care, vaccines, heatworm prevention, flea control, and so on and so on for at least two years before that litter.

How much profit from a previous litter went to subisdise that one?

The guys I personally know make more on the training of dogs than on the dog itself.  Some breed to have good solid training stock available.


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## JuliaH (May 10, 2012)

You know, I have done plenty of looking around... and I have taken in a few.... and I have heard more than one story about great bloodlines, great dogs, champions in the pedigrees... and they are often there.... wayyyyy back!

I know that my first girls have been from good hunting stock and have had talent (one is my Senior Hunter, mother of Annie who is now a Field Champion) so I don't want to rattle on about pedigrees, except that if you want champion lines you should see that in the pedigree up close enough to have some influence on the pups...  

Even in being a horse breeder, I did research, and appreciated the fine lines way back. But those lines, when they are 4 or more generations back, have little to do with the horse standing in my yard.  It was those breeders who knew what they were doing that made those wonderful foundation animals important by protecting and bettering the animals. 

If I want to ever consider getting the best prices, I have to have the best dogs. That means all the stuff redman just related and it also means having the $$ to train, or have trained, or purchase top quality animals to use as a foundation. 

In my case, as in the case of many, the $$ to start at the top just cannot be had, so knowledge of breeding helps, study helps, finding good mentors, stud dogs, etc. helps. Sending puppies to training to get our lines started is imperative. 

ANYONE who is in this for the $$ so they can make their living selling puppies is in it for the wrong reasons.

Another thought... I appreciate the Forum for allowing a conversation like this to go on!  Anyone can be a puppy mill. Not everyone is in it for the money. 

Julia


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## grouper throat (May 10, 2012)

I agree with Folsom. You can't tell me a brood gip that spits out a litter or two every year that you sell $1k pups each isn't making a decent profit. That or those breeders are terrible money managers.. 

Like Flhunter82 mentioned our hunting dog is much different. No papers, certifications, etc just results of training and genetics. One 1.5 yr old trail dog will bring more money than 3 dozen well bred pups anyday in the deer woods.


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## JuliaH (May 10, 2012)

Well, there's the difference. I do AKC and will be adding American Field so double registered and I have hips tested on my adult GSPs. On some breeds there are a lot of those to do... and large dogs such as Labs and Shepherds are very important to have hips tested... 

Once my dogs reach a certain level of training, they are no longer for sale, except to very carefully selected owners and that is future planning. Right now I am working on getting all my dogs titled. 

A lot is in the stuff we do, or don't do 

Julia


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