# Harmonizing the new testament with the old testament



## jwf2506 (Sep 8, 2022)

So many people seem to believe that the renewed covenant "New testament "contradicts the first covenant "Old testament " especially when it comes to the law of Moses maybe this will help shed some light on the subject

https://www.ministersnewcovenant.org/explaining-nt-texts.html


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## brutally honest (Sep 8, 2022)

I thought the apostles did a good job of harmonizing the New with the Old in Acts 15.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 8, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> I thought the apostles did a good job of harmonizing the New with the Old in Acts 15.



"We have heard that some  went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said.  

Amen.


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## jwf2506 (Sep 8, 2022)

Especially Acts 15:20 where he tells them 4 things they should do which is from the law of Moses probably because they were .struggling with these particular things.  then in verse 21 they could learn the rest of the law by going to the synagogue. Then verses 28-29 the message was delivered also saying they didn't want to give them to much at  one time to learn but they was to start with these 4 things and then learn the rest from the teaching of Moses in the synagogue.     
             Beautiful isn't it.


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## jwf2506 (Sep 8, 2022)

Gordon

Do you know who the "us" are and what they were saying that was disturbing and troubling people's minds in this one verse or was that supposed to be twisted to mean that I am troubling people's minds ?


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## brutally honest (Sep 8, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> Beautiful isn't it.



No, it’s eisegesis:  reading your beliefs into the scriptures.


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## jwf2506 (Sep 8, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> No, it’s eisegesis:  reading your beliefs into the scriptures.


 At what point did I read my beliefs into theses scriptures?


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## brutally honest (Sep 8, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> At what point did I read my beliefs into theses scriptures?



In between the “especially” and the “it”.




jwf2506 said:


> Especially Acts 15:20 where he tells them 4 things they should do which is from the law of Moses probably because they were .struggling with these particular things.  then in verse 21 they could learn the rest of the law by going to the synagogue. Then verses 28-29 the message was delivered also saying they didn't want to give them to much at  one time to learn but they was to start with these 4 things and then learn the rest from the teaching of Moses in the synagogue.
> Beautiful isn't it.


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## brutally honest (Sep 8, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> At what point did I read my beliefs into theses scriptures?



Let's cut to the chase.

1)  A man walks into your church and says, "What must I do to be saved?"

2)  The man is not circumcised.

Would you tell him he needs to be circumcised as the Law of Moses commands?


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## jwf2506 (Sep 8, 2022)

Being circumcised will not save a person there is only one way to be saved and that is to believe in the messiah,be baptized and follow the commandments of Yahweh to the best of our ability and when we fall short as we all will then we are to repent and be thankful that we have an advocate with the father. So now since we are cutting to the chase let me ask you this  we know the Apostles and Paul as well as others  walked along side of Yeshua, yet long after the messiah was gone how come did they everyone continue to follow the law of Moses, if it was done away with ?


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## jwf2506 (Sep 8, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> In between the “especially” and the “it”.


 so your saying that  the 4 things the Apostles told the gentiles was not from the law of Moses, and that the writings of Moses wasn't taught in the synagogue every sabbath for people to learn from ? 
    These things are not my beliefs they are the infallible words of Yahweh.


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## brutally honest (Sep 8, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> Being circumcised will not save a person  ...



... but that was not my question.  I will clarify.  Would you tell him he needs to be circumcised NOT to be saved but to follow the Law of Moses?


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## brutally honest (Sep 8, 2022)

FYI:  you should edit post 5.  At it reads now, it looks like gordon said all that.


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## jwf2506 (Sep 8, 2022)

I did not start this thread to argue I was just sharing some teachings of a well studied  gentleman of the scriptures that help me tremendously with harmonizing the renewed covenant with the first covenant


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## brutally honest (Sep 8, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> I did not start this thread to argue I was just sharing some teachings of a well studied  gentleman of the scriptures that help me tremendously with harmonizing the renewed covenant with the first covenant



... and I'm not even that interested in the topic, but you seemed desperate to discuss it.  I just didn't want you to feel ignored. 

FYI again:  most of the "discussion" goes on one forum above.  Not sure why that is, but this forum seems to literally be a bulletin board:  people post things, but there is little discussion.


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## brutally honest (Sep 8, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> I did not start this thread to argue I was just sharing some teachings of a well studied  gentleman of the scriptures that help me tremendously with harmonizing the renewed covenant with the first covenant



That's fine, and you're probably not alone in your beliefs.  Welcome aboard!


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## jwf2506 (Sep 9, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> ... but that was not my question.  I will clarify.  Would you tell him he needs to be circumcised NOT to be saved but to follow the Law of Moses?


If you are asking should you be circumcised to follow the law of Moses , when Judas and Silas told them the 4 things they should start with they did not tell them to first be circumcised.


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## jwf2506 (Sep 9, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> ... and I'm not even that interested in the topic, but you seemed desperate to discuss it.  I just didn't want you to feel ignored.
> 
> FYI again:  most of the "discussion" goes on one forum above.  Not sure why that is, but this forum seems to literally be a bulletin board:  people post things, but there is little discussion.


I do love talking about Yahweh's word and I figured you wasn't really interested by the way you didn't respond to how converting gentiles was told to do things from the law of Moses. Discussion is good as long as no one gets upset . And thank you for not wanting me to feel ignored


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## jwf2506 (Sep 9, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> That's fine, and you're probably not alone in your beliefs.  Welcome aboard!


Im definitely not alone in my beliefs there actually is a lot of us peculiar people , Thank you for the welcome


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## Madman (Sep 9, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> Gordon
> 
> Do you know who the "us" are and what they were saying that was disturbing and troubling people's minds in this one verse or was that supposed to be twisted to mean that I am troubling people's minds ?


The “us” were the Apostles, some people, the “judaizers” were teaching that gentiles must first follow Mosaic law by being circumcised.  The Jerusalem Council struck that down.


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## Madman (Sep 9, 2022)

The “well studied gentleman” has some teachings that are strange.


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## jwf2506 (Sep 9, 2022)

Madman said:


> The “well studied gentleman” has some teachings that are strange.


Yeah they seemed strange to me as well to start with then as I began to study the text for myself  things started to make more sense .


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 9, 2022)

From the OP's link;
"What we experience in the mean time is the best gift we could ever receive. *Yahweh sent His Son* *Yeshua to live perfectly according to the law, and to then die as the unblemished sacrifice for our sins. *He took upon himself the penalty for our sins. If we place faith in what Yahweh did for us in sending His own Son, we are forgiven of all our sins. If you're like me, and have messed up many times, that's some good news!"

I understand Yeshua is our advocate but it seems like he is much more than just an advocate.


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## Madman (Sep 9, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> Yeah they seemed strange to me as well to start with then as I began to study the text for myself  things started to make more sense .


When new teachings conflict with 2000+ years of Church teaching I lean toward the Church.


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## jwf2506 (Sep 9, 2022)

Madman said:


> When new teachings conflict with 2000+ years of Church teaching I lean toward the Church.


This is not new teachings these are the original teachings and if anything goes against the holy scriptures no matter how long they have been taught it is still wrong


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## jwf2506 (Sep 9, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> From the OP's link;
> "What we experience in the mean time is the best gift we could ever receive. *Yahweh sent His Son* *Yeshua to live perfectly according to the law, and to then die as the unblemished sacrifice for our sins. *He took upon himself the penalty for our sins. If we place faith in what Yahweh did for us in sending His own Son, we are forgiven of all our sins. If you're like me, and have messed up many times, that's some good news!"
> 
> I understand Yeshua is our advocate but it seems like he is much more than just an advocate.


He is the only begotten son of Yahweh and was sent to die for our sins without him we would not have a way to salvation and that is everything


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## brutally honest (Sep 9, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> If you are asking should you be circumcised to follow the law of Moses , when Judas and Silas told them the 4 things they should start with they did not tell them to first be circumcised.



This is eisegesis.  The apostles did not say that they should "start with" these four things and then move on to the rest of the Law.  They just gave them the list of four things "to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things."


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## brutally honest (Sep 9, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> ... I figured you wasn't really interested by the way you didn't respond to how converting gentiles was told to do things from the law of Moses.




I agree the gentiles were told to "abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication". 

I follow those commands each and every day.


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## jwf2506 (Sep 9, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> This is eisegesis.  The apostles did not say that they should "start with" these four things and then move on to the rest of the Law.  They just gave them the list of four things "to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things."


No that is Exegesis, because that is exactly what they was saying to them. They was not saying all you need to is these 4 and that's exactly what Acts 15:21 is saying that the law of Moses is taught every sabbath


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## j_seph (Sep 9, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> Being circumcised will not save a person there is only one way to be saved and that is to believe in the messiah,be baptized and follow the commandments of Yahweh to the best of our ability and when we fall short as we all will then we are to repent and be thankful that we have an advocate with the father. So now since we are cutting to the chase let me ask you this  we know the Apostles and Paul as well as others  walked along side of Yeshua, yet long after the messiah was gone how come did they everyone continue to follow the law of Moses, if it was done away with ?


Are you certain that you cannot be saved without baptism?


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## jwf2506 (Sep 9, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> I agree the gentiles were told to "abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication".
> 
> I follow those commands each and every day.


Do you believe that they would have told them that it was ok to eat pork then?


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## madsam (Sep 9, 2022)

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE BAPTIZED OR PARTICIPATE IN BAPTISM TO HAVE
SALVATION. FAITH IN JESUS IS ALL THAT IS REQUIRED.   Salvation is received
by faith alone....John3:16,Ephesians 2:8-9,Titus 3:5......Baptism is an important 
step of obedience  that all Christians should take. Baptism illustrates the believers
identification with Christs Death.  BUT IT IS NOT REQUIRED FOR A FAITHFUL
WALK WITH JESUS.


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## jwf2506 (Sep 9, 2022)

j_seph said:


> Are you certain that you cannot be saved without baptism?


I can't say who can or cannot be saved only Yahweh can do that but I read in the scriptures like
Acts 2:37-38 "where new coverts ask what should we do" and Peter tells them to repent and be baptized
Acts 22:16 "Paul is told" now why do you delay get up and be baptized.
Mark 16:16 He who has believed and been baptized shall be saved
John 3:5 Yeshua answered truly, truly unless one is born of WATER and spirit he CANNOT enter the kingdom of Yahweh. 
Plus we read where Yeshua goes to John to be baptized I sure there probably other text that I'm forgetting..... but once again I most definitely cannot say who can or cannot be saved.


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## brutally honest (Sep 9, 2022)

How in the world did baptism get drawn into this?


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## jwf2506 (Sep 9, 2022)

madsam said:


> YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE BAPTIZED OR PARTICIPATE IN BAPTISM TO HAVE
> SALVATION. FAITH IN JESUS IS ALL THAT IS REQUIRED.   Salvation is received
> by faith alone....John3:16,Ephesians 2:8-9,Titus 3:5......Baptism is an important
> step of obedience  that all Christians should take. Baptism illustrates the believers
> ...


Brother all I can do is go by the scriptures and encourage everyone else do the same read and pray to work out there own salvation but from what I understand  Baptism was very important to John the baptizer and Yeshua the messiah because they both were doing a lot of it.


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## jwf2506 (Sep 9, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> How in the world did baptism get drawn into this?


I'm blaming you for this one


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## brutally honest (Sep 9, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> I'm blaming you for this one



Not my fault!


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## brutally honest (Sep 9, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> No that is Exegesis, because that is exactly what they was saying to them. They was not saying all you need to is these 4 and that's exactly what Acts 15:21 is saying that the law of Moses is taught every sabbath



In Acts 15:5, the Pharisees are telling them to keep the Law of Moses.  Then, Peter stands up and says, “We can’t keep the Law.  Why should we lay that burden on the gentiles?” (v. 10)

If they thought it was necessary to keep the Law, they would have told them explicitly to do just that.  They wouldn’t have broken out the four things and just wish them well.


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## brutally honest (Sep 9, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> Do you believe that they would have told them that it was ok to eat pork then?



There’s nothing wrong with eating pork.

“Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.” - Rom. 14:3


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## brutally honest (Sep 9, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> I'm blaming you for this one



OK, now I see you mentioned it in post 10.


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## jwf2506 (Sep 9, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> There’s nothing wrong with eating pork.
> 
> “Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.” - Rom. 14:3


They are not talking about clean or unclean food in this text


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## brutally honest (Sep 9, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> They are not talking about clean or unclean food in this text



1) That’s an interpretation.

2) They are talking clean and unclean in Acts 10.


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## jwf2506 (Sep 9, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> 1) That’s an interpretation.
> 
> 2) They are talking clean and unclean in Acts 10.


If you are referring to Peter's vision go to the page I inserted in my first post then click on Acts 10 this teacher  explains this text well , I'm not being a smart aleck I'm being serious and see if it makes sense after you read it


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## Madman (Sep 9, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> This is not new teachings these are the original teachings and if anything goes against the holy scriptures no matter how long they have been taught it is still wrong


Friend I have no intention of an argument, I only leave you with a thought, into whose care were the Holy Scriptures given?  Who has interpreted them since they were given, who has taught them and the faith, unbroken for 2000+ years?

Be careful listening to “learned men”, there are many groups that claim to have come from “learned men” yet walk in serious error.

God’s peace.


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## jwf2506 (Sep 9, 2022)

Madman said:


> Friend I have no intention of an argument, I only leave you with a thought, into whose care were the Holy Scriptures given?  Who has interpreted them since they were given, who has taught them and the faith, unbroken for 2000+ years?
> 
> Be careful listening to “learned men”, there are many groups that claim to have come from “learned men” yet walk in serious error.
> 
> God’s peace.


I appreciate the advice and the not arguing, I don't just listen to learned men but I also study and you are correct there is a lot of learned men ,preachers ,pastors ect. That most definitely walk in error and teach others to do the same. And if someone shows me with scripture and I don't mean a misunderstood 1 liner I mean an actual studied ,dissected scripture that proves what I'm thinking is incorrect I'm not only going to be  thankful but I will also repent and ask Yahweh to increase my learning of the scriptures and keep my feet on the straight and narrow.  What I have learned is that a lot of Paul's writings are misunderstood and twisted by pastors every Sunday and it is proven with scripture but it takes more than just surface reading you must study it out. that's why I started this thread and put the insert of someone who has studied the scriptures intensely, not to start an argument but maybe someone out there who might be like I was looking and not getting an answer


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## brutally honest (Sep 9, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> I appreciate the advice and the not arguing, I don't just listen to learned men but I also study and you are correct there is a lot of learned men ,preachers ,pastors ect. That most definitely walk in error and teach others to do the same. And if someone shows me with scripture and I don't mean a misunderstood 1 liner I mean an actual studied ,dissected scripture that proves what I'm thinking is incorrect I'm not only going to be  thankful but I will also repent and ask Yahweh to increase my learning of the scriptures and keep my feet on the straight and narrow.  What I have learned is that a lot of Paul's writings are misunderstood and twisted by pastors every Sunday and it is proven with scripture but it takes more than just surface reading you must study it out. that's why I started this thread and put the insert of someone who has studied the scriptures intensely, not to start an argument but maybe someone out there who might be like I was looking and not getting an answer



Believe what you like, but the ministry you linked to in the OP began in 2000.  Juxtapose that against the 2,000 years of church history that Madman refers to above.


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## jwf2506 (Sep 10, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Believe what you like, but the ministry you linked to in the OP began in 2000.  Juxtapose that against the 2,000 years of church history that Madman refers to above.


Ok I'm very well aware of how long the scriptures has been established, and I believe that today's churches are so far removed from the truth it is absolutely pathetic just look at what is acceptable and what the standard of a today's Christian vs a 2000 year ago believer is. but I also believe that there is great people that has dedicated themselves to studying the scriptures and bring back the truths of Yahweh's word and I am so thankful that they have taken time from their lives and sacrificed so much for the purpose of the kingdom and I pray Yahweh will richly bless them and their families for their sacrifice. I  ask one thing of you instead of just saying you are wrong and I am right to please open your bible and show me what I believe is wrong with book,chapter and verse. And I truly thank you for taking the time to search the scriptures because at the end of the day we all should only want the truth of Yahweh's word so we can apply it to our lives and live according to his will.


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## brutally honest (Sep 10, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> … please open your bible and show me what I believe is wrong with book,chapter and verse.



I have listed several verses from Acts, Romans, and Galatians.  Here’s another:

“For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.”  - Rom. 10:4

I’m sure the site in the OP has a response to that, but I’ve looked through that site and found it wanting.  

I’m certain of one thing, though:  since the time of the apostles, certain Jewish believers have wanted gentile believers to become Jewish believers like themselves.  I don’t believe that is the message the NT conveys to gentiles.


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## brutally honest (Sep 10, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> Ok I'm very well aware of how long the scriptures has been established, and I believe that today's churches are so far removed from the truth it is absolutely pathetic just look at what is acceptable and what the standard of a today's Christian vs a 2000 year ago believer is.



I agree that modern churches have many issues and have stated in other threads that early believers would not even recognize many modern churches as churches.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 10, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> I have listed several verses from Acts, Romans, and Galatians.  Here’s another:
> 
> “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.”  - Rom. 10:4
> 
> ...


I'm with you on end of the law thing for sure. I'm not really sure on what exactly Gentiles are suppose to become in relation to the grafting in as explained in Romans 11. Also in relation to the full number of Gentiles has come into that grafting in.

I would think it more that Israel should become more like Gentiles in believing the Law has ended than us become more like Israel in believing that it hasn't.

It seems like Romans 11 says a Remnant was chosen from Israel by grace and the rest were hardened, Until that full number of Gentiles is grafted in. A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. At that point Israel's eyes will be opened, their hardening removed.

And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob.

Seems a bit hard to remove Gentiles path from that of Israel since we have been grafted in to Israel.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 10, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> He is the only begotten son of Yahweh and was sent to die for our sins without him we would not have a way to salvation and that is everything


I agree, that is everything. It is finished. Christ is the only way to harmonize the Old with the New. 
That ministry on your link wasted a good bit of mind gymnastics for nothing. He could had just answered "Jesus" as the answer.


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## jwf2506 (Sep 10, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> I agree, that is everything. It is finished. Christ is the only way to harmonize the Old with the New.
> That ministry on your link wasted a good bit of mind gymnastics for nothing. He could had just answered "Jesus" as the answer.


I don't believe it was a waste of any mind gymnastics I believe he explains why the Apostles and Paul as well as others continued to follow the law of Moses long after the Messiah had ascended into heaven with the father.


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## Madman (Sep 10, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> I’m certain of one thing, though:  since the time of the apostles, certain Jewish believers have wanted gentile believers to become Jewish believers like themselves.  I don’t believe that is the message the NT conveys to gentiles.


We know the purpose of the law, it is to show us sin, Holy Scripture makes it clear we cannot keep the law, if you break one part you are doomed.  That being said, the Jerusalem council was to combat exactly what you just said.  Some of the Jewish Christian’s were teaching that new Christians had to be circumcised.   The Apostles struck that down.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 10, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> I don't believe it was a waste of any mind gymnastics I believe he explains why the Apostles and Paul as well as others continued to follow the law of Moses long after the Messiah had ascended into heaven with the father.


I've heard some explain it as a dispensation between the one of Law and the one of Grace that ended at ascension, the Pentecost, or 70AD.


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## jwf2506 (Sep 10, 2022)

Madman said:


> We know the purpose of the law, it is to show us sin, Holy Scripture makes it clear we cannot keep the law, if you break one part you are doomed.  That being said, the Jerusalem council was to combat exactly what you just said.  Some of the Jewish Christian’s were teaching that new Christians had to be circumcised.   The Apostles struck that down.


Its saying IF you are trying to keep the law to OBTAIN SALVATION we know that cannot be done.If we are absolutely not supposed to keep the law why in the world would the Apostles, Paul and many others continue to keep it after the messiah was gone you would think they would have been the first people told not to keep the law. Trust me I understand Paul's writings are hard to understand and I believe that is exactly what Peter is saying in 2nd Peter 3:16. And I know you've read where Yahweh says that David was a man after his own heart now read psalms 119 and look what David thinks about the law of Yahweh. I do not try to keep the law of Moses so as to obtain salvation , what is the definition of sin? It is transgression of the law


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 10, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> Its saying IF you are trying to keep the law to OBTAIN SALVATION we know that cannot be done.If we are absolutely not supposed to keep the law why in the world would the Apostles, Paul and many others continue to keep it after the messiah was gone you would think they would have been the first people told not to keep the law. Trust me I understand Paul's writings are hard to understand and I believe that is exactly what Peter is saying in 2nd Peter 3:16. And I know you've read where Yahweh says that David was a man after his own heart now read psalms 119 and look what David thinks about the law of Yahweh. I do not try to keep the law of Moses so as to obtain salvation , what is the definition of sin? It is transgression of the law


What's your take on Romans 11? It seems like God's whole plan was to show us that we could not keep the Law and thus needed salvation in the form of a Messiah. Thus God using the Jews as a nation to accomplish his salvation going out to all the nations(Gentiles).
In order to accomplish this plan, God chose a Remnant by Grace and hardened the rest to allow Salvation to go to the Gentiles and thus to be grafted in to Israel.

This is in line with God's plan of the Law's purpose.

Also in line with Galatians 3:10
For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”


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## brutally honest (Sep 10, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> Its saying IF you are trying to keep the law to OBTAIN SALVATION we know that cannot be done.If we are absolutely not supposed to keep the law why in the world would the Apostles, Paul and many others continue to keep it after the messiah was gone you would think they would have been the first people told not to keep the law.



Can you clarify what you mean by "the law"?  Are you talking about the Ten Commandments only?  Animal sacrifices?  Feast days?  The entire OT?


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 10, 2022)

The Law condemns a person for as long as they are under law. For a person who continues to practice the Law today, they are bound to the Law's requirements, which Paul says means they are forever under condemnation. But for the person who places faith in the work of Christ, that person comes out from under the penalty of Law. In this sense, all people (who practice the Law) are under the Law. 

Doesn't Paul say in a verse that one can try to keep the Law if he wants to but if he breaks any part of it, he has broken all of it?


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## Madman (Sep 10, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> Its saying IF you are trying to keep the law to OBTAIN SALVATION we know that cannot be done.If we are absolutely not supposed to keep the law why in the world would the Apostles, Paul and many others continue to keep it after the messiah was gone you would think they would have been the first people told not to keep the law. Trust me I understand Paul's writings are hard to understand and I believe that is exactly what Peter is saying in 2nd Peter 3:16. And I know you've read where Yahweh says that David was a man after his own heart now read psalms 119 and look what David thinks about the law of Yahweh. I do not try to keep the law of Moses so as to obtain salvation , what is the definition of sin? It is transgression of the law


They did not keep the dietary laws, remember Peter’s dream “kill and eat”.

Paul chastised Peter for his dietary hypocrisy.


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## jwf2506 (Sep 10, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Can you clarify what you mean by "the law"?  Are you talking about the Ten Commandments only?  Animal sacrifices?  Feast days?  The entire OT?


The whole law of Moses


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 10, 2022)

Scriptures show that Paul, an apostle personally trained by Jesus, was still Torah observant some 25 years after his conversion.

Any ideas why? He mostly taught that Gentiles shouldn't but perhaps in his discipleship, he kept Torah as a way to not offend the Torah keeping people he witnessed the Gospel to?
He made a big part of his revelation that there was no difference between the Jew and Gentile and that the wall between them was removed by the Cross. Plus that were were not required to keep the Law. 

1 Corinthians 9:20 
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.

Wasn't it sorta weird though for Paul to do that? Plus how could they still be under the law after the Cross? Unless Paul meant "to those who think they are under the Law."


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## jwf2506 (Sep 10, 2022)

Madman said:


> They did not keep the dietary laws, remember Peter’s dream “kill and eat”.
> 
> Paul chastised Peter for his dietary hypocrisy.


Peter's vision is easily understood that Peter was not to call Cornelius common and to illustrate this Yahweh used clean and unclean animals if you will look back at the insert I out at the beginning the teach explains this text. Where does Paul chastise Peter for keeping the dietary laws?


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## jwf2506 (Sep 10, 2022)

PPaul


Artfuldodger said:


> Scriptures show that Paul, an apostle personally trained by Jesus, was still Torah observant some 25 years after his conversion.
> 
> Any ideas why? He mostly taught that Gentiles shouldn't but perhaps in his discipleship, he kept Torah as a way to not offend the Torah keeping people he witnessed the Gospel to?
> He made a big part of his revelation that there was no difference between the Jew and Gentile and that the wall between them was removed by the Cross. Plus that were were not required to keep the Law.
> ...


Paul did keep the law and feast days
Acts 21:20-26
Acts 18:18-21
He even offers up animal sacrifice according to Numbers 6:13-20
Once again Paul's whole  message was you could not obtain salvation by keeping the law he was not teaching them that they should not keep the law because it was sin to do so


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## jwf2506 (Sep 10, 2022)

Just look at 1st Corinthians 9:24
It says don't you know that those who run in a race that all run but only one wins the prize . Well just by reading one could think well only one person is going to heaven but we all know better than that , so we must look at the scriptures "the 1st covenant and the renewed covenant "as a whole to understand it. And not just pick out a verse here and there and try to come up with a doctrine of our own.
We do not serve a schizophrenic God that changes his mind .


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## brutally honest (Sep 10, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> The whole law of Moses



Acts 15:5-6:

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.  And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.”

If you’re correct, what is there to consider?  All the apostles had to say was, “The Pharisees are correct.  The gentiles need to keep the entire law of Moses.”

… but they didn’t say that.


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## brutally honest (Sep 10, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> Paul did keep the law and feast days
> Acts 21:20-26
> Acts 18:18-21
> He even offers up animal sacrifice according to Numbers 6:13-20



So Christians today should be offering up animal sacrifices?


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## brutally honest (Sep 10, 2022)

Acts 15:24-29:

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:  It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.  We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.  For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;  That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.”

I just don’t see how you can read that and then say gentiles need to keep the whole law of Moses.  Remember, this was a LETTER sent to the gentiles.  What gentile, after reading that, would think he needed to obey the whole law of Moses?


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## brutally honest (Sep 10, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Acts 15:24-29:
> 
> “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:



I’ll paraphrase:

“We, the apostles who walked with the Lord for three years, did NOT command you to be circumcised or to keep the law.  The guys who said that are just stirring up trouble.”


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 10, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> So Christians today should be offering up animal sacrifices?


Any idea why Paul kept Torah but at the same time preached against it?
What was that story about where Paul paid those guys to shave their heads to prove to the Jews that he was a Torah keeper? If he is telling us not to keep Torah, why is he trying to convince those Jews that he himself does?


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## Madman (Sep 11, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> Where does Paul chastise Peter for keeping the dietary laws?


I said Peter’s hypocrisy.

Does it matter? Would it change anything?  It would just be “explained” away.

As I said I am not here to argue or even change your mind.

What makes you believe the Church lost her way, the teachings are in someway false or corrupt?  Men will come in the latter days with false teachings.

There are are many who have left the faith looking for “answers”, I choose to believe the Bible, the traditions, and the teachings of the Church that Christ started.

Reread Hebrews, the writer talks of the better way.


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## Madman (Sep 11, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> Peter's vision is easily understood that Peter was not to call Cornelius common and to illustrate this Yahweh used clean and unclean animals if you will look back at the insert I out at the beginning the teach explains this text.


A perfect example of the warning in 2 Peter 3:16.


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## jwf2506 (Sep 11, 2022)

Madman said:


> Does it matter? Would it change anything?  It would just be “explained” away.
> 
> As I said I am not here to argue or even change your mind.
> 
> ...


The writer is not saying the law has been done away with, now remember I DO NOT believe you can get to heaven by JUST following the law .You are correct you will not change my mind and It's ok if we disagree with each other but we cannot disagree with Yahweh he has the final say, and you are correct it does say in the final days men will come and teach false teachings and you can definitely see that in most of the  church's of today and when people say the law that David, a man after Yahweh's own heart says it is beautiful and perfect and how he meditates on it day and night, that now it is just completely done away is absurd, think about this Yahweh said don't eat a pig because it is detestable,  did pigs all of a sudden evolve and become non detestable that makes absolutely no sense, how about when Yeshua said in Matthew 5:17-19 until heaven and earth pass away not even the smallest jot or tittle that is the smallest mark on the scroll would pass away, well the heavens and the earth is still here, also what about when Yeshua says ANYONE who does or teaches others to do the smallest commandment of the law, Now think about this image what happens to the person who doesn't do the biggest commandment and teaches others to do the same.Now mind you this is YESHUA the messiah the same one you are saying has done away with the law of YAHWEH the creator, he is the one who is speaking in Matthew and there is so many other text that backs this understanding of the scriptures.  Now to your other statement, Why in the world would someone have to leave the faith to look for answers THEY ARE RIGHT THERE IN THE TEXT. the way many "churches" and "traditions " teach it makes it seem like there is 2 different Elohims,  1 in the first covenant and a different 1 in the renewed covenant and that is a problem. The new testament does not contradict the old testament and if it ever seems that way you need to stop and study and see why  you are misunderstanding the text because the holy scriptures never contradict themselves.


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## jwf2506 (Sep 11, 2022)

Madman said:


> A perfect example of the warning in 2 Peter 3:16.


 You are exactly right this is a perfect example of 2nd Peter 3:16, So you really believe that in the whole story of Cornelius Yahweh thought it would be a good time to tell Peter that the dietary laws was done away with, come on now really, I'm sure Yahweh would have approached that epiphany at a different time. Why do you think it says in Acts 10:17 that Peter was deeply perplexed about what the vision meant, then in 10:19 it says while he was still thinking about the vision the spirit said 3 men are looking for you "the spirit did not say hey Peter you can now have a porkchop sandwich " then look at  verses 28,29 we then see Peter fully understands the vision that Yahweh was telling him not call any MAN "human" common or UNCLEAN. 
Now tell me who does it look like is twisting this scripture


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## jwf2506 (Sep 11, 2022)

I apologize if it seems that I'm being a jerk because that is not my intention, sometimes I let my emotions get in the way when we should only be edifying the church of Yahweh.


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## brutally honest (Sep 11, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> I apologize if it seems that I'm being a jerk …



You misspelled “Jew”.


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## brutally honest (Sep 11, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> I apologize if it seems that I'm being a jerk because that is not my intention, sometimes I let my emotions get in the way when we should only be edifying the church of Yahweh.



You don’t come across as a jerk.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 11, 2022)

I guess I'm sorta hung up on understanding Paul's actions as a way to get through this. If I was a Law keeping Jew and was suddenly elected and converted by Jesus, I don't think I'd be able to return to Jewish synagogues and the Temple and take part in the very stuff I am suppose to be against now. I'd go and and be more like, "hey you guys, quit doing all this stuff, Jesus fulfilled it. It is finished.
Then they had Paul pay to have those men shave their heads to prove he was a Torah keeper. 
Then Paul had to go before the King in court. His defense was that he had not committed any offense against the Law or the Jews. I just wished Paul would have just denounced it all and told the King and court that grace had replaced the Law. They would have probably stoned him but at least he would have said what most Christians wished he would have said. If he had, this would not even be a discussion. 
What part of this story am I missing? OH and I do believe that grace replaced the law when Christ died on the Cross. Actually I don't think the Law ever saved anyone.


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## jwf2506 (Sep 11, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> You misspelled “Jew”.


Oh no I am most definitely a gentile just like you I just believe that once I was adopted into their family I would live by their rules.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 11, 2022)

To do what Paul did would be like me being a Pagan and converting to Christianity, returning to those old Pagan worship meetings and telling them they can still do all of those old rituals as long as they believe in Jesus and worship his Father.
Wouldn't this be a strange way for me to act just to connect? Especially if I was a really popular and educated person if the Pagan faith before my conversion.
Seems like my message to those Pagans would be to get rid of all them old ways and follow the path of Jesus only. and the grace of his Father.
I do realize this analogy is a bit extreme since Jews and Christians worship the same God and that us Gentiles have been grafted in to natural/physical Israel.


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## jwf2506 (Sep 11, 2022)

I also believe that just following the law will not save you
But I do believe when I try to follow the law of Yahweh it makes him happy.
I believe Yeshua is ok with it too


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 11, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> I also believe that just following the law will not save you
> But I do believe when I try to follow the law of Yahweh it makes him happy.
> I believe Yeshua is ok with it too


If you look at some of our other recent threads, you will see that a lot of folks agree with you as well.  It's not that it replaces the Cross but that it keeps one in a more perfect relationship with God. Maybe because they don't take it to the extreme as you, they think they are disagreeing with you but really they are more aligned with you.


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## Madman (Sep 11, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> You are exactly right this is a perfect example of 2nd Peter 3:16, So you really believe that in the whole story of Cornelius Yahweh thought it would be a good time to tell Peter that the dietary laws was done away with, come on now really, I'm sure Yahweh would have approached that epiphany at a different time. Why do you think it says in Acts 10:17 that Peter was deeply perplexed about what the vision meant, then in 10:19 it says while he was still thinking about the vision the spirit said 3 men are looking for you "the spirit did not say hey Peter you can now have a porkchop sandwich " then look at  verses 28,29 we then see Peter fully understands the vision that Yahweh was telling him not call any MAN "human" common or UNCLEAN.
> Now tell me who does it look like is twisting this scripture


It is evident who is twisting the Scriptures.  As I said, do as you please, but be careful in following a man.


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## jwf2506 (Sep 11, 2022)

Madman said:


> It is evident who is twisting the Scriptures.  As I said, do as you please, but be careful in following a man.


The text about Peter's vision really isn't that hard and if you'd like we can break the text down even further and maybe you'll understand better, I don't mind one bit to do it.


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## jwf2506 (Sep 11, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> I guess I'm sorta hung up on understanding Paul's actions as a way to get through this. If I was a Law keeping Jew and was suddenly elected and converted by Jesus, I don't think I'd be able to return to Jewish synagogues and the Temple and take part in the very stuff I am suppose to be against now. I'd go and and be more like, "hey you guys, quit doing all this stuff, Jesus fulfilled it. It is finished.
> Then they had Paul pay to have those men shave their heads to prove he was a Torah keeper.
> Then Paul had to go before the King in court. His defense was that he had not committed any offense against the Law or the Jews. I just wished Paul would have just denounced it all and told the King and court that grace had replaced the Law. They would have probably stoned him but at least he would have said what most Christians wished he would have said. If he had, this would not even be a discussion.
> What part of this story am I missing? OH and I do believe that grace replaced the law when Christ died on the Cross. Actually I don't think the Law ever saved anyone.


 I understand what you're saying but Paul would never have denounced the law because he believed in keeping it whole heartily and he did keep it.


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## Madman (Sep 11, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> The text about Peter's vision really isn't that hard and if you'd like we can break the text down even further and maybe you'll understand better, I don't mind one bit to do it.


Thank you for your offer, I have, and believe the context of the Scriptures and 2000+ years of Church teaching on the subject.

Best of luck with the man who can answer your questions.  Don’t make this more difficult than it is.


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## jwf2506 (Sep 12, 2022)

This chapter is focused on a man named Cornelius, whom Luke calls devout and upright (Acts 10:2, 22). Yahweh was hearing the prayers of Cornelius; they had come up as a memorial before Him (Acts 10:4). By this we know Cornelius was not turning his ear from hearing the law, else his prayers would have been an abomination (Proverbs 28:9).

The issue was that Cornelius was not raised as a Hebrew, and thus uncircumcised. The vision given to Peter was to assure him that it was okay to go to Cornelius, and witness to him about forgiveness of sins by faith in Yeshua, the Son of Yahweh.

The vision (Acts 10:9-16) was a large sheet containing all sorts of animals, clean and unclean. The voice in the vision tells Peter to get up, kill and eat. Peter’s response to the voice? “No Lord! I’ve never eaten anything common or unclean!”

The voice then talks back to Peter and says, “What the Almighty has made clean, you must not call common.” A more technical translation here is, “What the Almighty deems to be clean, you should not call common.” The point is not that Yahweh is cleansing something, but that Peter should not deem common what Yahweh already deems clean. Notice that the voice never tells Peter to call something unclean, clean. The voice specifically uses the word common when correcting Peter. There is a difference between something common and unclean.

And example of an unclean animal would be a camel or pig. Something common would be a cow that had been strangled or not slaughtered properly. The cow is not unclean, but is considered common because of secondary reasons. Yeshua is telling Peter, “The things that the Almighty considers clean, don’t refer to them as common.”

Acts 10:17 tells us that Peter was deeply perplexed about what the vision he had seen might mean. Why? Almost everyone I talk to seems to interpret the vision very quickly, by saying we are allowed to eat unclean animals. Peter, however, knew that Yeshua (the sinless Messiah) was not telling him to violate the law. This is why Peter was perplexed. He knew that there must be a deeper meaning to the vision.


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## jwf2506 (Sep 12, 2022)

While Peter thought about the vision (Acts 10:19), three men showed up at his house looking for him. This corresponds to the three times the events in the vision happened to Peter (Acts 10:16). These men come into Peter, explain to him what had taken place at Cornelius’ house, and Peter travels to meet with Cornelius.

In Acts 10:28 we get the climax of the story. Peter speaks to Cornelius: “You know it’s forbidden for a Judahite man to associate with or visit a foreigner.” What did Peter mean by “forbidden?” Was Peter saying that the law of Moses forbade such? I do not believe so. The Torah of Moses welcomes the stranger and teaches to treat them as one born among Israel (Exodus 18:12; Numbers 15:14-16; Exodus 22:21; Leviticus 19:33-34).*

Peter was learning that just because Cornelius wasn’t raised Hebrew, and thus uncircumcised, did not mean he was common. Peter’s ancestor Abraham was also called in un-circumcision, and even justified before he was circumcised (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:9-11). Yahweh showed Peter that he shouldn’t call any un-circumcised man common or unclean for salvation (Acts 10:28).

Prior to this, the gospel message about Yeshua only went to circumcised Israelites, or proselytes to the faith of Israel. Here, the Almighty was revealing to Peter than a man outside of the Covenant could receive this gospel message (and enter the Covenant) by faith, apart from converting to become a Jew the traditional way.

----------
*Peter's mentioning of forbidden is a reference to the tradition of the elders (Matthew 15:1-2). The Pharisees of Yeshua's day believed that Moses not only received the Torah from the Most High (that he [Moses] wrote down), but that he also received a list of regulations from the Most High that he then passed down orally. Moses then taught them to the 70 elders (orally), and from generation to generation, these laws were passed down by word of mouth all the way to the Pharisees. (see The Works of Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, 13.10.6)


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## jwf2506 (Sep 12, 2022)

Madman said:


> Thank you for your offer, I have, and believe the context of the Scriptures and 2000+ years of Church teaching on the subject.
> 
> Best of luck with the man who can answer your questions.  Don’t make this more difficult than it is.


You keep saying you choose to believe the context and the 2000+ years of church teachings, what I just posted is the context broke down using scripture to explain and back up how I now understand this text [ And I for a long time understood this text the exact same way as you do now] ,and as far the 2000+ years of church teachings just look at where that has gotten to , a lot of churches are teaching that homosexuality is not a sin, and look how they have watered down what keeping the sabbath actually means, but they don't mind preaching on tithing your money which most of them has that wrong as well and that is just a start of what's wrong with most of today's churches, I'm not saying this to bash other churches I'm just saying you are telling me to be careful of listening to men, I am asking you to be careful of the church teachings as well.

Oh and one more point, keep in mind Peter's vision takes place years after the Messiah  ascended and you see that Peter says he has never eaten anything common or unclean so we know for sure he was still keeping the law of Yahweh after walking with and being taught by Yeshua, so if the law had been done away with surely the Apostles what have been the first to know.


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## brutally honest (Sep 12, 2022)

Just like some white people want to be black:









… some Christian people want to be Jewish.


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## jwf2506 (Sep 12, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Just like some white people want to be black:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And this is what Matthew 7:6 is referring to " Do not give what is holy to the dogs and don't throw your pearls before the swine or they will trample them then turn and tear you to pieces"
But I will still pray for you.

And I will give a little more free education 
A Jew can be a Christian......ain't that cool


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## brutally honest (Sep 12, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> And this is what Matthew 7:6 is referring to " Do not give what is holy to the dogs and don't throw your pearls before the swine or they will trample them then turn and tear you to pieces"
> But I will still pray for you.



I will take all the prayers I can get.


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## brutally honest (Sep 12, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> A Jew can be a Christian......ain't that cool



The Jews on Pentecost thought it was totally cool.


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## jwf2506 (Sep 12, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> The Jews on Pentecost thought it was totally cool.


Another fun fact Peter and the other Apostles where there because they were keeping the feast of Pentecost,  are you ready,....are you ready............here it comes...............keeping the feast of Pentecost is part of the law of Moses ..........isn't that cool


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## brutally honest (Sep 12, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> Another fun fact Peter and the other Apostles where there because they were keeping the feast of Pentecost,  are you ready,....are you ready............here it comes...............keeping the feast of Pentecost is part of the law of Moses ..........isn't that cool



Totally cool and many years before the first gentile was baptized.


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## jwf2506 (Sep 12, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Totally cool and many years before the first gentile was baptized.


 are you sure about that


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## brutally honest (Sep 12, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> are you sure about that



Yes.  The earliest date I can find for Cornelius’ baptism is AD 36.  That seems very early, though.  I know I’ve seen later estimates of the date.

AD 36-40 seems to be the consensus.


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## brutally honest (Sep 12, 2022)

“It is monstrous to talk of Jesus Christ and to practise Judaism. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity …”

 — Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch - “Letter to the Magnesians, Ch. 10”


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## jwf2506 (Sep 12, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> “It is monstrous to talk of Jesus Christ and to practise Judaism. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity …”
> 
> — Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch - “Letter to the Magnesians, Ch. 10”


Well let's look at this , we know That the Apostles believed in and kept the law and They believed that they were saved by grace,
Now look at Cornelius who was not a Jew he believed in the law and understood Peter's teaching of grace.


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## jwf2506 (Sep 12, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> What's your take on Romans 11? It seems like God's whole plan was to show us that we could not keep the Law and thus needed salvation in the form of a Messiah. Thus God using the Jews as a nation to accomplish his salvation going out to all the nations(Gentiles).
> In order to accomplish this plan, God chose a Remnant by Grace and hardened the rest to allow Salvation to go to the Gentiles and thus to be grafted in to Israel.
> 
> This is in line with God's plan of the Law's purpose.
> ...


I apologize for not responding, I actually didn't see this post between going back and forth with "Brutal Honest" and "Mad Man" . Did you look and see if it was answered in the insert . If not we can look at it and see if we can find the answer


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 12, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> I apologize for not responding, I actually didn't see this post between going back and forth with "Brutal Honest" and "Mad Man" . Did you look and see if it was answered in the insert . If not we can look at it and see if we can find the answer


I didn't see anything on it. I couldn't find Janzen discussing in anywhere either.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 12, 2022)

The discussion on Cornelius and the timeline of gentile salvation made me think of Paul's revelation to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles. Like how long did he preach to the Jews before getting his revelation to spread the gospel to the Gentiles?
Maybe this timeline might help me see why Paul kept torah, etc. before heading out to witness to the Gentile. It's an article from a long gone preacher. I thought it was interesting.

"During that period, up to Acts 28, Paul became a Jew to the Jews (under the Law), and God’s order was “to the Jew first”."

"Paul did not receive his “uncircumcision” gospel from Peter and the Eleven."

"Christ sent Paul, not to baptize."

In Acts 9:1 to 15, we have the record of Paul’s (Saul’s) conversion. Then what followed? He straightway preached Christ (Messiah) in the synagogue.
Now, note carefully what he called this: “preached the faith which he once destroyed.” Galatians 1:23. Remember, Saul never persecuted Gentile Christians. He was turned to Christ before the door of salvation was opened to the Gentiles. 

Fourteen years after, by revelation, Paul went again to Jerusalem and told them of a revelation he had received from the risen Christ, “the gospel of the uncircumcision”. Note, the Twelve learned it from Paul and not from Christ. 

https://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/when-how-where-and-why-did-paul-receive-what/


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## jwf2506 (Sep 12, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> I didn't see anything on it. I couldn't find Janzen discussing in anywhere either.


Ok I will read it again tonight and in the morning to see if I can get some more info and then I'll post tomorrow


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 12, 2022)

From the above I wonder if Paul preached to the Jews first and thus why he and the apostles did what they did but after his revelation, he preached a more grace or uncircumcised plan as revealed by Christ to him?

That being said though and why Romans 11 is so important is because there Paul tells us we do become Jews by adoption. So yes, I am white and Christian but I want to be Jewish.


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## brutally honest (Sep 13, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> I am white and Christian but I want to be Jewish.



Sadly, “The Jerry Springer Show” is no longer in production.


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## jwf2506 (Sep 13, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> The discussion on Cornelius and the timeline of gentile salvation made me think of Paul's revelation to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles. Like how long did he preach to the Jews before getting his revelation to spread the gospel to the Gentiles?
> Maybe this timeline might help me see why Paul kept torah, etc. before heading out to witness to the Gentile. It's an article from a long gone preacher. I thought it was interesting.
> 
> "During that period, up to Acts 28, Paul became a Jew to the Jews (under the Law), and God’s order was “to the Jew first”."
> ...


Yeah that's alot to go over but we can do it, let me look through this because from your post it looks like you are asking some questions and also makes some statements , which is good for study .


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## jwf2506 (Sep 13, 2022)

To start with: Paul didn't preach to the Jews necessarily before he preached to the gentiles. He would have preached to anybody willing to hear the gospel message. This gospel message was the same gospel message that was given to the 11 (the gospel of the kingdom, Acts 1:3). This is the reason that he is preaching in Jerusalem, Judea, and then he moves towards the ends of the earth (Acts 1:8). He preached primarily to start with in Damascus before he started his missionary Journeys and also he preached in Jerusalem and in Judea (Acts 26:19-22)
Paul didn't receive the gospel from anybody but messianic Jews specifically the start of it from Ananias in Acts 9. In verse 20 it says he began preaching the gospel immediately with the disciples in the synagogue's of Damascus which goes right along with his defense in Acts 26 to Felix. So Paul was commissioned specifically to carry the gospel to the nations as well as Jewish converts when he was converted on the Damascus road. There wasn't a time that that he only spoke to the Jews before he receives a revelation to speak to gentiles. Prior to his conversion he persecuted the church as we see in his defense in Acts 26. Then at his conversion in Acts 9 we see a total confirmation where Paul starts to preach immediately to the locals in Damascus and the Judea and Jerusalem but not because he needs to just preach to the Jews or that he's commissioned to preach to the Jews first, but because he is in that region and that's who is there to preach to. At first Paul was feared by all around even after his conversion because of all the persecution he was causing before his conversion and so he kinda had to build some trust with the church but as soon as he does he is sent off to start the ministry to all the gentile nations (Acts 9:26-31). Notice that he is sent off  by the brothers, these brothers are not gentiles that send him off but kinsmen people of Jewish decent. 

As far as Paul teaching the brothers in Jerusalem that the gentiles could have salvation, I don't think this come from Paul. I believe this was established long before Paul came on the scene, we see this evident in Acts 10 with Cornelius's conversion. Now he reports back to the elders in Jerusalem several times about his success on his missionary journeys but not educate the brothers in Jerusalem that all the sudden the gentiles can receive salvation. 

This is a take on this subject from a friend of mine,  See if this makes since


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## brutally honest (Sep 13, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> No what is sad is that Grown ups that are claiming to be Christians can not engage in adult conversation about the holy scriptures without reverting to childish acts, 1st Corinthians 13:11 " when I was a child I spoke like a child,thought like a child and reason like a child, when I became a man I did away with childish things" .
> I'm not trying to be mean I'm just being " Brutally honest "




1) I don’t joke about the scriptures.

2) If I hadn’t started the ball rolling, this thread would be as dead as the rest of this forum.


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## jwf2506 (Sep 13, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> 1) I don’t joke about the scriptures.
> 
> 2) If I hadn’t started the ball rolling, this thread would be as dead as the rest of this forum.


You did get the ball rolling and that is a good thing


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 13, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Sadly, “The Jerry Springer Show” is no longer in production.


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## jwf2506 (Sep 13, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> 1) I don’t joke about the scriptures.
> 
> 2) If I hadn’t started the ball rolling, this thread would be as dead as the rest of this forum.


That was actually funny maybe I took it a little to serious,  my bad.


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## brutally honest (Sep 13, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> That was actually funny maybe I took it a little to serious,  my bad.



No problem.  I'm a big boy.


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## StriperAddict (Sep 16, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> OH and I do believe that grace replaced the law when Christ died on the Cross. Actually I don't think the Law ever saved anyone.


It didn't, the purpose of the law of Moses was to point Jews to the finished work of Christ.  And for the non Jews, the conscience was used by God to do the same. Rom 2:12-16


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## StriperAddict (Sep 16, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> As far as Paul teaching the brothers in Jerusalem that the gentiles could have salvation, I don't think this come from Paul. I believe this was established long before Paul came on the scene, we see this evident in Acts 10 with Cornelius's conversion.


Gentile salvation was a discovery in the heart of God as revealed by the Spirit to Paul,  discussed in Romans; that the gentiles were "also predestined" for salvation, not God pickin and choosing who gets burnt and who doesn't. 
I ain't going into that if it starts a different ball rolling. But jew and gentile salvation is well exigeted in the PD scriptures.


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## jwf2506 (Oct 10, 2022)

jwf2506 said:


> Especially Acts 15:20 where he tells them 4 things they should do which is from the law of Moses probably because they were .struggling with these particular things.  then in verse 21 they could learn the rest of the law by going to the synagogue. Then verses 28-29 the message was delivered also saying they didn't want to give them to much at  one time to learn but they was to start with these 4 things and then learn the rest from the teaching of Moses in the synagogue.
> Beautiful isn't it.



And what is so cool about this scripture is how it is directly inline with Leviticus 17-18, theses are the first four commandments they are giving right after the day of atonement "forgiveness". It is so great how the renewed covenant ties in with the first covenant.


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