# Cure for Demons, Medicine or Prayer?



## bullethead (Nov 3, 2011)

I saw this in the news:
NEW HAVEN, Conn. (AP) — A Connecticut man facing a possible death sentence for killing a woman and her two daughters during a fiery home invasion was portrayed Wednesday as a dark and depressed teen who once saw a demon with glowing eyes — and whose ultra-religious parents believed prayer and faith were the best medicine, witnesses testified.

Joshua Komisarjevsky faces life in prison or the death penalty for killing Jennifer Hawke-Petit and her two daughters in their Cheshire home in 2007. The girls were tied to their beds and died of smoke inhalation after they were doused in gas and the house was set on fire during an eight-hour ordeal.

Komisarjevsky's accomplice, Steven Hayes, was sentenced to death last year for raping and strangling Hawke-Petit and killing the girls. Komisarjevsky was also convicted of sexually assaulting the 11-year-old girl.

The defense says Komkisarjevsky's strict religious family failed to get him psychological help. The defense says Komisarjevsky was sexually abused as a young child by a foster teen the family took into their home and later by an unidentified person. Komisarjevsky's sister testified that he sexually abused her for years.

Prosecutors say the claim that Komisarjevsky was sexually abused came from him when he was facing sentencing for earlier home burglaries. They say the report of demons also came amid pending court cases.

Komisarjevsky's family had moved to a religious community in New Hampshire after he got into trouble for burning down a vacant gas station. Bryce Whiting, a pastor who belonged to a church the family attended there in the late 1990s, testified during the sentencing phase that a teenage Komisarjevsky was visibly shaken as he described "a dark spiritual being with glowing eyes and menacing in his appearance" by a TV where he had made a pipe bomb.

The pastor said he and others called to help the family as Komisarjevsky reported seeing the demon led him in prayers telling the devil to leave as they placed their hands on him.

Whiting said he believed Komisarjevsky's account of the demon, which he said would be guarding the pipe bomb. Whiting said other men who were with him instructed Komisarjevsky to give them the pipe bomb as well as weapons he kept at the house.

"Then you pray against the enemy," Whiting said. "We say to you devil you have to leave."

Komisarjevsky was in more trouble within weeks, breaking into a hardware store to get weapons, Whiting said. He also broke into cabins at the religious community and was eventually banished, he said.

Whiting said the church, described as advent Christian, does believe in the presence of demons and at one point said he might appear to be a "wacko" for describing them. He said he doesn't go looking for demons, but noted they can grow in numbers.

Under cross-examination, Whiting said he did not see the demon Komisarjevsky described. He described the bomb as small with Scotch tape attached to it.

A prosecutor asked if the incident might have been a ploy. He also asked why the men who were with Whiting would have Komisarjevsky give them a potentially dangerous bomb.

"That would help show the demon he meant business and didn't want this evil entity around him," Whiting said.

The church does accept psychiatry, Whiting said.

"I think we accept it like most people do," he said. "It has its place."

Whiting described Komisarjevsky as a troubled teen with empty eyes, though he said the teenager could occasionally be helpful, such as fixing an electrical problem at the church.

"I saw nothing," he said. "I saw an emptiness. I wondered how much he cared about people when I saw the nothing, the blank in his eyes."

William Gerace, an attorney who represented Komisarjevsky in 2002 when he pleaded guilty to 19 nighttime residential burglaries, said his family wanted to send him to a spiritual boot camp at the time. Gerace said he told the family Komisarjevsky needed psychological treatment.

"They were Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity -----bent on making sure he didn't get any medication and that the Lord would handle it through faith," Gerace said.

Charles Berney, Komisarjevsky's probation officer in New Hampshire in 1996, testified that the family planned to get him pastoral counseling and didn't want other types of counseling.

"He appeared very depressed," Berney said. "Just very dark, very sad."

Berney, who met with Komisarjevsky six times over eight months, said the family tried to give the impression the situation was under control.

'I felt it was a family in hiding," he said. "I felt the parents were evasive and not forthcoming."


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## Huntinfool (Nov 3, 2011)

Prayer, medicine and other psychological help.  Those are the answer.  There is likely no "cure" unless God chooses to heal.  Typically a psychological issue like that is a permanent state that can be managed, but not cured.

Very very sad.  Heartbreaking, in fact.

Please tell me you're not posting this because you believe that most Christians would follow the same logic this family did.


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## rjcruiser (Nov 3, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Please tell me you're not posting this because you believe that most Christians would follow the same logic this family did.



Just like christian's are just like muslims when it comes to terrorism

This guy obviously is mentally messed up.  Anyone that has the thought/follow through on killing someone like he did is.

That being said, even mentally messed up people need to be responsible for their actions.  I say give him the needle.


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## bullethead (Nov 3, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Prayer, medicine and other psychological help.  Those are the answer.  There is likely no "cure" unless God chooses to heal.  Typically a psychological issue like that is a permanent state that can be managed, but not cured.
> 
> Very very sad.  Heartbreaking, in fact.
> 
> Please tell me you're not posting this because you believe that most Christians would follow the same logic this family did.



Just looking for some opinions about how his family handled his problems early on. I wonder if medication and professional help early may have prevented this incident later.


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## bullethead (Nov 3, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Just like christian's are just like muslims when it comes to terrorism
> 
> This guy obviously is mentally messed up.  Anyone that has the thought/follow through on killing someone like he did is.
> 
> That being said, even mentally messed up people need to be responsible for their actions.  I say give him the needle.



He saw demons and his family prayed for him. Maybe meds would have been a better choice.


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## Huntinfool (Nov 3, 2011)

Prayer first.  But most of the time, not only prayer.  They should have prayed not just "God heal him".  They should have prayed, "God heal him.  But if you choose not to, show us your will and show us what you would have us do."

I am majorly anti-medication unless it's necessary.  In other words, I don't want to medicate my kids for something that can be fixed elsewhere (i.e. parenting, natural fixes, etc).

I think, in this case though, it's pretty clear that these folks were just flat out neglectful.  God gaves us brains for a reason IMO.  the kids was psychotic.

Some people wrongly interpret the Bible.  Bottom line.  God is the Great Physician and Healer.  But he is not the only one of either of those.  They should have helped that kid.


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## Huntinfool (Nov 3, 2011)

> He saw demons and his family prayed for him. Maybe meds would have been a better choice.



The implication in the statement being that prayer was useless from the get go.  You won't get a Christian to agree to that.  

They prayed wrongly...likely...and they failed to act in the best interest of that kid....definitely.


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## bullethead (Nov 3, 2011)

How does someone pray "rightly"?


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## bullethead (Nov 3, 2011)

Prayer didn't work=prayed wrongly.
Prayed "rightly" but outcome was not as hoped=God's Will.
Prayer worked=God's Will
Prayed "wrongly" but situation turned out alright=???


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## Huntinfool (Nov 3, 2011)

Prayed wrongly as in what I posted earlier.  



> They should have prayed not just "God heal him". They should have prayed, "God heal him. But if you choose not to, show us your will and show us what you would have us do."




Prayer always works.  You have a wrong view of what prayer is.  He is not a giant Pez dispenser in the sky.


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## bullethead (Nov 3, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Prayed wrongly as in what I posted earlier.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How do you know WHAT and HOW they prayed? I got a news flash for you about your "prayer always works" assumption.


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## JB0704 (Nov 3, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I got a news flash for you about your "prayer always works" assumption.




.....not in the way one who prays may want it to.  God can say "no" (and he does every time I pray for a winning lottery ticket).  

What confuses me is the predes folks praying.  From what I understand it is an act of obedience.  Aside from that, is there any possible benefit?  If the future is written, it can't be changed by prayer, because the prayer was always going to be said, so the outcome is certain.....I just don't get it.


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## ted_BSR (Nov 3, 2011)

bullethead said:


> How do you know WHAT and HOW they prayed? I got a news flash for you about your "prayer always works" assumption.



Yes, prayer always works. It doesn't always end up how the one doing the praying thinks or desires it to, but it always works. I am curious about your "news flash". What say you?


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## bullethead (Nov 3, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> Yes, prayer always works. It doesn't always end up how the one doing the praying thinks or desires it to, but it always works. I am curious about your "news flash". What say you?



The outcome is the same whether I prayed to God, the Sun, or that often talked about Oak Tree in front of my house.

There is ALWAYS an outcome to every scenario. Good, Bad or otherwise SOMETHING is going to happen prayer or not.

The excuses on how that end result "happened" is what is entertaining.


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## dawg2 (Nov 3, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Just looking for some opinions about how his family handled his problems early on. I wonder if medication and professional help early may have prevented this incident later.



Yes, they have medicine for schizophrenia.


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## bullethead (Nov 3, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> .....not in the way one who prays may want it to.  God can say "no" (and he does every time I pray for a winning lottery ticket).
> 
> What confuses me is the predes folks praying.  From what I understand it is an act of obedience.  Aside from that, is there any possible benefit?  If the future is written, it can't be changed by prayer, because the prayer was always going to be said, so the outcome is certain.....I just don't get it.



Spot On


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## ted_BSR (Nov 3, 2011)

bullethead said:


> The outcome is the same whether I prayed to God, the Sun, or that often talked about Oak Tree in front of my house.
> 
> There is ALWAYS an outcome to every scenario. Good, Bad or otherwise SOMETHING is going to happen prayer or not.
> 
> The excuses on how that end result "happened" is what is entertaining.



Yeah, you don't understand prayer. It is not a mechanism to make things happen. You are trying to break down a supernatural occurence into an everyday explainable by logic set of rules that just doesn't apply to what you are trying to refute. I don't expect you will believe me, but trust me.


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## bullethead (Nov 3, 2011)

dawg2 said:


> Yes, they have medicine for schizophrenia.



Right!
It also begs the question on who should take it in that article....the murderer(obviously) and maybe his parents for thinking that simply praying was going to change him.

Guys are talking about Prayer always working, just not as often wished with the results desired. If the parents prayed for his healing, the prayer was heard and then the outcome is many years later that person pouring gas on people and murdering them........well.......use whatever excuse helps ya sleep at night but I ain't buying it.


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## bullethead (Nov 3, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> Yeah, you don't understand prayer. It is not a mechanism to make things happen. You are trying to break down a supernatural occurence into an everyday explainable by logic set of rules that just doesn't apply to what you are trying to refute. I don't expect you will believe me, but trust me.



Oh, I don't understand prayer........

Ted, sorry, I have seen both sides of it and I have a darn good understanding of it. A better choice of words is that I don't believe it.

How come only the people who believe it "understand" it? Will you trust me when I tell you my oak tree is responsible for granting or denying your prayers? Maybe it is you that does not understand how it works???


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## ted_BSR (Nov 3, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Oh, I don't understand prayer........
> 
> Ted, sorry, I have seen both sides of it and I have a darn good understanding of it. A better choice of words is that I don't believe it.
> 
> How come only the people who believe it "understand" it? Will you trust me when I tell you my oak tree is responsible for granting or denying your prayers? Maybe it is you that does not understand how it works???



The five words in red above demonstrate that you do not understand prayer, at all, not the least little bit, from either side of the fence that you have been on, you have never understood.


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## bullethead (Nov 3, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> The five words in red above demonstrate that you do not understand prayer, at all, not the least little bit, from either side of the fence that you have been on, you have never understood.



Nope, regrettably it is you that does not understand. Just take my word for it, trust me.

The oak has the power to grant or deny OR do it like you think it is done. In fact exactly like you are convinced prayer works. I get it.


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## bullethead (Nov 3, 2011)

This is EXACTLY how the Oak Tree has a hand in prayer.

Prayers have the ability to activate the deity principles (aspects of God) in the Universe. The subtlest frequencies are generated when one pays gratitude along with the prayer. These frequencies have the ability to not only activate but also touch the deity; hence the deity principle is activated faster. This activation of the deity principle (aspect of God) results in fulfilment of prayers. The deities bring about the fulfilment of prayers by the power of resolve.


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## ted_BSR (Nov 3, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Nope, regrettably it is you that does not understand. Just take my word for it, trust me.
> 
> The oak has the power to grant or deny OR do it like you think it is done. In fact exactly like you are convinced prayer works. I get it.



I know you are, but what am I?


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## bullethead (Nov 3, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> I know you are, but what am I?



100% Bulls-eye, spot on, bingo, on the nosy.


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## bullethead (Nov 3, 2011)

I am willing to hear your understanding of how prayer works.


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## ted_BSR (Nov 3, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I am willing to hear your understanding of how prayer works.



Prayer works in the sense that it allows us to come before God. It is more of a vehicle of connection and praise than anything else.

My Grandfather used to say that it was easy to pray, but difficult to understand just who you were talking to.

It gives us an audience with the creator and supreme being of the entire universe. That is pretty awesome no matter what the outcome. Whatever we ask for, the will of the Lord will be done. He hears and listens to everything we say in prayer, but I think it is less important what we pray or wether or not things turn out the way we pray for them, than it is to realize what exactly we are doing when we pray. To be in His presence is the beauty of it. Thanks for listening (reading).


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## bullethead (Nov 3, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> Prayer works in the sense that it allows us to come before God. It is more of a vehicle of connection and praise than anything else.
> 
> My Grandfather used to say that it was easy to pray, but difficult to understand just who you were talking to.
> 
> It gives us an audience with the creator and supreme being of the entire universe. That is pretty awesome no matter what the outcome. Whatever we ask for, the will of the Lord will be done. He hears and listens to everything we say in prayer, but I think it is less important what we pray or wether or not things turn out the way we pray for them, than it is to realize what exactly we are doing when we pray. To be in His presence is the beauty of it. Thanks for listening (reading).



Ted, thanks for taking the time to put it into writing.
I can totally understand why you believe it to be that way. Honestly and Sincerely I can appreciate why that is the way you see it to be.

I don't want this to detract from that because I understand that it is your personal and unique experience that you get while praying. Do you think that others who pray to other, different deities get that same feeling and experience? Can their prayers be equally as genuine? Or do they not understand the right or real way it is done and absorbed?


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## bullethead (Nov 3, 2011)

I "get" that prayer is more about the Inner Peace and connection to a higher power an individual has while praying and gets from praying...outcome not withstanding.


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## ted_BSR (Nov 3, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Ted, thanks for taking the time to put it into writing.
> I can totally understand why you believe it to be that way. Honestly and Sincerely I can appreciate why that is the way you see it to be.
> 
> I don't want this to detract from that because I understand that it is your personal and unique experience that you get while praying. Do you think that others who pray to other, different deities get that same feeling and experience? Can their prayers be equally as genuine? Or do they not understand the right or real way it is done and absorbed?



This makes me think about the movie Conan the Barbarian. Not the remake, the original. When Conan is a young boy his father tells him that he (Conan) prays to Crom! That is his god! Throughout his entire life, Conan never forgets this and always stays true to Crom no matter what his life is like at the time. I know that many real people in modern times experience the same thing as Conan, they are taught about a religion and they continue to beilieve it till they die. To them it is totally real. This is undeniable.
Of all those religions, only one can be right. Perhaps it is the one I believe in. Perhaps it is your oak tree. Perhaps your oak tree is not much different than my god. There is no question in my mind which one is right. If you have questions, then you'd better keep looking.


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## bullethead (Nov 3, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> This makes me think about the movie Conan the Barbarian. Not the remake, the original. When Conan is a young boy his father tells him that he (Conan) prays to Crom! That is his god! Throughout his entire life, Conan never forgets this and always stays true to Crom no matter what his life is like at the time. I know that many real people in modern times experience the same thing as Conan, they are taught about a religion and they continue to beilieve it till they die. To them it is totally real. This is undeniable.
> Of all those religions, only one can be right. Perhaps it is the one I believe in. Perhaps it is your oak tree. Perhaps your oak tree is not much different than my god. There is no question in my mind which one is right. If you have questions, then you'd better keep looking.



My questions are not so much about me looking for answers for ME, but more about why and how others believe as they do. I am comfortable and confident in my beliefs. I am intrigued and fascinated at how so many people take so many paths to come to similar conclusions albeit with so many different yet equally powerful deities.

Almost like a wagon wheel: Is the center hub the One True Supreme Being with all the spokes as paths FROM other gods leading to it? Or, is the center hub the One true Supreme Being with all the paths leading away from it TO other gods so that it is understandable to everyone?
One, Many, All?
Is only one right, or in the end are they all right?

Then again..... are none right or even exist?


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## Huntinfool (Nov 4, 2011)

bullethead said:


> How do you know WHAT and HOW they prayed? I got a news flash for you about your "prayer always works" assumption.



I don't know.  That's why I said "likely" several times.  Did you read that part?  I'm making an assumption because had they prayed rightly....prayer always works.

The Bible tells us very clearly that prayers can be "hindered" for certain reasons.  I know of six.  But I'm sure there may be more.

Go ahead.  Lay the news flash on me broth.  Nevermind.....I saw it.  I think somebody else already broke that story though.  Their sources and credibility have been put to shame though.

As I said, God is not some magic Pez dispenser in the sky.  You correct in one thing.  There is always an outcome.


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## Huntinfool (Nov 4, 2011)

> Is only one right, or in the end are they all right?



Only one is right.


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## ambush80 (Nov 4, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Only one is right.




You're all wrong.


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## Huntinfool (Nov 4, 2011)

I figured that might blow a few fuses in here.


I know I'm right...but I suppose we shall all see eventually, huh?


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## ambush80 (Nov 4, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> This makes me think about the movie Conan the Barbarian. Not the remake, the original. When Conan is a young boy his father tells him that he (Conan) prays to Crom! That is his god! Throughout his entire life, Conan never forgets this and always stays true to Crom no matter what his life is like at the time. I know that many real people in modern times experience the same thing as Conan, they are taught about a religion and they continue to beilieve it till they die. To them it is totally real. This is undeniable.
> Of all those religions, only one can be right. Perhaps it is the one I believe in. Perhaps it is your oak tree. Perhaps your oak tree is not much different than my god. There is no question in my mind which one is right. If you have questions, then you'd better keep looking.



And in the end, Conan says "...[Crom] grant me revenge, and if you do not, the 'heck' with you".  

Bullethead,  

Have you seen the video about praying to a jug of milk?


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## TheBishop (Nov 4, 2011)

If the family prayed I can help but deduce a couple notions about prayer.

1. There is a right or wrong way to pray and they picked the wrong way.

2. They were praying to the wrong diety

3.  There is a necessary quantity or volume of prayer needed and they did not meet those requirements.

4. Their prayers were heard but met with apathy.

5. Their is no diety to hear prayers.

6. "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."   Edmund Burke.  If the prayers were heard and god did nothing becuase it his will than god is not all good.


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## Huntinfool (Nov 4, 2011)

If #1 is true, then #2 is not necessarily true.  They could have prayed to the right deity, the wrong way.

#3, I don't understand.  That makes no sense at all.  Again, if #1 (i.e. wrongly) is true, then #3 is irrelevant.

#4...again, see #1 (irrelevant if they prayed wrongly)

#5...See #1 (irrelevant if they prayed wrongly)

#6..."If the prayers were heard and God did nothing because it is his will, then God is not all good."  So are you trying to say that if ANYTHING bad happens, God is not good?

Bishop, normally you're on top of things man.  But you didn't think this post out very well.


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## TheBishop (Nov 4, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> If #1 is true, then #2 is not necessarily true.  They could have prayed to the right deity, the wrong way.
> 
> #3, I don't understand.  That makes no sense at all.  Again, if #1 (i.e. wrongly) is true, then #3 is irrelevant.
> 
> ...



Not at all.  But if prayer was rendered and refused, and evil allowed to triumph and all that was needed to prevent such triumph was for gods will to impose so, then god is not all good. Humans get arrested for similiar feats, its called negligence. 




> Bishop, normally you're on top of things man.  But you didn't think this post out very well.



No I did, you just didn't follow it very well. Those are all logical (seperate from each) explanations of why prayer was not effective in this particular case. I might have missed one, but they all can be used to conclude why their prayers had no effect on the outcome.


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## Huntinfool (Nov 4, 2011)

10-4.  I guess I was reading them in succession as if they built off each other.


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## dawg2 (Nov 4, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Right!
> It also begs the question on who should take it in that article....the murderer(obviously) and maybe his parents for thinking that simply praying was going to change him.
> 
> Guys are talking about Prayer always working, just not as often wished with the results desired. If the parents prayed for his healing, the prayer was heard and then the outcome is many years later that person pouring gas on people and murdering them........well.......use whatever excuse helps ya sleep at night but I ain't buying it.



Look at it this way and consider this parable:

A guy falls overboard and is lost at sea floating.  The man prays to God be saved from certain death and a row boat comes by and the man says “No, I’m waiting for God to save me.”  A little while later a larger boat comes by, and the man says “No, I’m waiting for God to save me.”  Then a helicopter comes by and the man says “No, I’m waiting for God to save me.”  The man eventually drowns and goes to heaven.  When he arrives at the pearly gates he says “God why didn’t you rescue me?” God replies “I sent a row boat, a rescue boat, and a helicopter what else did you want?”

Having a preference for a particular outcome is not the same as attachment.  The drowning man had an idea of EXACTLY how God would save him that differed from what happened.  Prayers are answered, just not always as you perceive the outcome to be.  

The parents prayers were probably answered.  They expected God to swoop down and the room to fill with light and angelic beings and there be a miraculous recovery and they could snap pictures of these beings with their i-phones.  But the reality is, most likely at some point, they were told their son needed help.  But they waved off the row boat, rescue boat and helicopter in expectation of something else...


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## bullethead (Nov 4, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> And in the end, Conan says "...[Crom] grant me revenge, and if you do not, the 'heck' with you".
> 
> Bullethead,
> 
> Have you seen the video about praying to a jug of milk?



No! Lay it on me!


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## TheBishop (Nov 4, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> 10-4.  I guess I was reading them in succession as if they built off each other.



Yeagh my bad I re-read my post and kind of felt it could be interpreted that way.


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## bullethead (Nov 4, 2011)

From:http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/avalos_17_3.html

Can Science Prove that Prayer Works?
by Hector Avalos

The following article is from Free Inquiry magazine, Volume 17, Number 3.

Prayer has become a new cottage industry. Within the last five years the New York Times has listed as best-sellers at least a half-dozen books extolling the value of prayer in some form. [1] Cover stories have appeared in popular magazines like Newsweek, and television programs such as "Dateline NBC" have devoted entire shows to this subject. [2] In particular, physician Larry Dossey in his Prayer Is Good Medicine: How to Reap the Healing Benefits of Prayer (1996) and Healing Words: The Power of Prayer and the Practice of Medicine (1993) has popularized the notion that there is scientific evidence that prayer does work. [3]

While Dossey sometimes denies that he would impose his spiritual beliefs on his patients, his favoritism toward the supposed efficacy of prayer in the Judeo-Christian traditions is evident. [4] Another physician, Randolph C. Byrd, has conducted a celebrated study that he believes supports the conclusion that "intercessory prayer to the Judeo-Christian God has a beneficial therapeutic effect" in the population he studied. [5]

But is there scientific evidence that prayer really works? Can you ever know that a prayer was answered by the Christian god? Does even the notion of prayer make sense? I approach these questions as a professional biblical scholar, as an anthropologist trained in scientific methodologies, and as a former Pentecostal faith-healer. I must conclude that there are fatal flaws with the so-called scientific experiments used by supporters of prayer, and there are even greater philosophical and theological problems with verifying scientifically that the Christian god answers prayers. [6]
Impossible Experiments

Probably the experiment cited most often by advocates of prayer is the one performed by Byrd, a cardiologist at San Francisco General Medical Center. According to his report, he studied 393 patients between August 1982 and May 1983. He divided the group into 192 patients who were prayed for, and 201 who were not prayed for. [7] He reported that, among other things, the people who were prayed for were five times less likely to develop pulmonary edema. None required endotracheal intubation, and fewer patients died.

The problem with this and any so-called controlled experiment regarding prayer is that there can be no such thing as a controlled experiment concerning prayer. You can never divide people into groups that received prayer and those that did not. The main reason is that there is no way to know that someone did not receive prayer. How would anyone know that some distant relative was not praying for a member of the group that Byrd had identified as having received no prayer? How does one control for prayers said on behalf of all the sick people in the world? How does one assess the degree of faith in patients that are too sick to be interviewed or in the persons performing the prayers? Even Byrd acknowledges these problems and admits that "'pure' groups were not attained in this study." [8] Since control groups are not possible, such purported scientific experiments are not possible.

As noted by Gary P. Posner (Free Inquiry, "God in the CCU?" Spring 1990), the empirical results reported by Byrd do not inspire much confidence either. For example, 13 patients (7%) in the prayed-for group died, compared with 17 (8.5%) in the control group. Even Dossey admits that these and other differences between the two groups of Byrd's patients were statistically insignificant, and concludes: "Do we know any more about the possible effects of prayer from this experiment? I am afraid the answer may be no." [9]

To avoid the problems inherent in experiments on human beings, Dossey turns to experiments on nonhuman subjects to support his idea of the efficacy of prayer. Dossey, in fact, sees experiments on bacteria and mice as even more convincing because he believes that psychological factors of patients are thereby eliminated. He cites a catalog of experiments performed on, among other things, bacteria, yeast, and crystals. Such experiments were published in the American Journal for Psychical Research, the Journal of Parapsychology, Research in Parapsychology, and other journals Dossey considers to have "peer review standards as rigorous as many medical journals." [10]

Yet experiments on nonhuman subjects will not help Dossey because these experiments can encounter the same theological and scientific obstacles that plague experiments on human subjects. For example, there are people praying for the well-being of all life on Earth, and so you would not be able to divide bacteria, fungus, mice, or any other living thing into prayed-for and nonprayed-for groups.

None of these experiments (human and nonhuman) have been replicated by those who are generally skeptical of scientific studies of prayer. In general, such experiments will probably not inspire confidence until they are at least performed by teams of scientists that include both skeptics and supporters of the efficacy of prayer.
Deeper Troubles

But there are worse problems for the prayer hypothesis than a total lack of convincing data. There are profound philosophical and theological difficulties in the notion of prayer, especially prayer to the Christian god.
Prayer and the infinite

For Christian believers, answered prayers qualify as a type of miracle. According to Charles Hodge, the famous American fundamentalist theologian: "A miracle, therefore, may be defined to be an event, in the external world, brought about by the immediate efficiency, or simple volition, of God." [11] The problem with verifying scientifically that miracles as defined above ever occur is that the Christian god is supposed to have infinite characteristics, and we can never know whether a prayer has been answered by a being that is said to be infinite.

Let me explain. One of the infinite characteristics of the Christian god is omnipresence - that is, this being is said to be everywhere in the universe at the same time. The Christian god is also said to be eternal, all-powerful, and all-knowing. Yet, we, as finite human beings, could never know that such an infinite being exists. For example, in order to know that there is a being who is everywhere at the universe at the same time we would have to be everywhere in the universe at the same time. In order to know that there is a being who is eternal, we would have to be eternal. A supposed revelation from a supposedly infinite God will not overcome this problem. [12]

In order to know that any event we witnessed in the world was caused by a particular being, we first have to know that such a being exists. For example, it would be absurd to say: "I know my prayer was answered by an invisible Martian, but I do not know if invisible Martians exist." The reason this statement is logically absurd is that it attributes an action to a being not known to exist.

Likewise, in order to know that any event (e.g., an answered prayer or any other supposed extraordinary event) was caused by an infinite being, we first have to know that an infinite being exists. Since we can never know that an infinite being such as the Christian god exists, we can never know that any event we witness was caused by this being. In sum, knowing scientifically that an infinite God answered a prayer is logically impossible.
Pointless prayer

Prayer would be unnecessary if there were an all-knowing, all-good, and all-powerful God. Let's suppose that the most gifted doctor in the world happens to be your friend. This doctor has the ability to cure any sickness known to modern medicine. Let's also suppose that this doctor is living with your family, which includes a six-month-old baby.

Now if this infant were to become violently ill in the presence of this super-doctor, what would you expect from him? If the baby is choking, for example, you would expect him to use techniques that will relieve the baby's problem. You would not expect him to ask you first if you believed that he could cure your child before he was willing to help the child. You would not expect him to require you to show how much faith you had in him before he would help your child. What you would expect is for this super-doctor to act as soon as he sees the child choking.

Let's also suppose that this doctor has the ability to prevent cancer in all children anywhere in the world even before it occurs. Undoubtedly, you would expect that if he had this ability then he would use it, if he really fits our definition of "good." But if the doctor has this ability, and does use it, then you would not expect there to be any cases of infantile cancer in the world. If this super-doctor has this ability, then he should not wait for anyone to ask him to prevent the suffering of children with cancer. We would expect him to act immediately out of pure goodness.

Similarly, an all-good God would not want anyone to suffer. An all-knowing God would know who would suffer ahead of time, and an all-powerful God could prevent suffering before it happens. Thus, if there were an all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful God, then there would be no need for prayer in the first place, especially if the prayer is used to alleviate illnesses or any other type of suffering.
Other gods

Even if someone prayed to the Christian god for healing and that person was healed, it would not prove that the healing was done by the Christian god. All religions claim to have answered prayers. For example, according to the Bhagavad-Gita, part of the sacred scriptures of Hinduism, the god Krishna claims that it does not matter which god human beings worship; it is Krishna who answers their prayer. [13] Thus, it would not be scientifically possible to show that it is the Christian god who answered a prayer even if such a prayer was answered.
Supernatural ignorance

Even if we saw an extraordinary healing occur (e.g., a severed leg grow back instantaneously), we would not be able to prove scientifically that it was a supernatural occurrence. To say that something is supernatural is to say that something is not natural. But to say that something is not natural, one would have to be practically omniscient because that would be tantamount to saying that we know all the natural factors that could possibly be responsible for an event, and are claiming to know that none of the factors was responsible. No one has the kind of knowledge, and so consequently no one could ever call anything non-natural.

The most we could say about an event whose cause is unknown is that the cause is unknown. As already noted, we would be less justified in attributing an extraordinary event to an infinite being.
Bible problems

Byrd, Dossey, and many other similarly minded scientists usually are uninformed about the Bible and so do not seem to realize that even the Judeo-Christian scriptures severely undermine the possibility of controlled scientific experiments of prayer. For example, there are many passages that indicate that the Hebrew god will not listen to prayer when he is angry with a whole nation or significant portions of nation's institutions. Thus, in Isaiah 1:15, the Hebrew god says:

    When you stretch out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood.

According to Jeremiah 11:14 the Hebrew god even admonishes some not to pray.

    As for you, do not pray for this people, or lift up a cry or prayer on their behalf, for I will not listen when they call to me in the time of their trouble.

In the case of nonhuman objects of prayer, consider the reasons for poor plant growth discussed in Haggai 1:9-10:

    You have looked for much, and, lo, it came to little; and when you brought it home, I blew it away. Why? says the LORD of hosts. Because my house lies in ruins, while all of you hurry off to your own houses. Therefore the heavens above you have withheld the dew, and the earth has withheld its produce.

Thus, no matter how much people prayed in this case, it would not help plant growth until a temple was built.

So how would a so-called controlled study of prayer manage all of the possible factors (e.g. the building of a temple, anger towards a nation, geographical location of the objects of prayer, etc.) that might lead the so-called Judeo-Christian god to listen to some prayers but not others? Clearly, Dossey, Byrd, and their ideological colleagues do not realize that the many factors mentioned in the Bible for the selective answer of prayers render any thought of a controlled scientific study absolutely meaningless.
Why People Believe in Prayer

For most of my young and adolescent life, I was a faith healer in a Pentecostal tradition. I witnessed what I then thought were resurrections, spontaneous growth of short limbs, cures from cancer, and many other types of diseases. In retrospect, I have learned much about why people believe in answered prayers even when there is evidence to the contrary or even when it is logically absurd. Every single case of a supposedly answered prayer that I witnessed can be explained by one or more of the following factors: (1) false assumptions, (2) erroneous information, and (3) wishful thinking.

For example, many people with high blood pressure would call me to pray for them when their blood pressure rose. I would come and pray, and afterwards the blood pressure would fall. This would be regarded by me and the patient as an answered prayer. Yet most blood pressure frequently does rise and fall on its own because our bodies have systems that function like the thermostat in our homes. Many other "sick conditions" also get better on their own because the body has mechanisms to relieve itself (for example, fevers, colds, many types of aches and pains).

Another reason for the widespread belief in divine healing among Christians, especially Pentecostals, is the dynamic of the services in which healings are said to occur. In many instances a great quantity of healings are reported by traveling evangelists. Usually the evangelist asks the patient what the problem is.

Many may say, for instance, that they had a "kidney problem" when they have a backache. The evangelist usually does not verify if the patient is indeed suffering from kidney problems and is not usually familiar with the patient's medical history. Yet he might announce that the patient was healed of "kidney problems" to the entire audience. The evangelist also might assume that the persons who approached the altar were healed, and so he may report that multitudes of persons were healed in his previous stop. Indeed, the evangelist rarely performs follow-up examinations. Thus exaggerated numbers of reported healings can multiply rapidly in these environments.

The psychology of the petitioner is also a contributing factor. If the evangelist, for example, asks patients if God has healed them, they are very likely to say "Yes," even if their symptoms say the opposite. [14] The reason is that many patients are embarrassed to say that God has not healed them because this appears to insult God. Many times, patients will say that they have been healed because they really believe that eventually God will heal them, not because their symptoms have disappeared. Cases where patients say that they have not been healed are attributed to a lack of faith on their part or on the will of God.

Other reports of divine healing are precipitated by the erroneous assumption that doctors cannot be wrong. For example, there are many cases in which a doctor might tell a patient that he or she has an incurable illness from which death will occur within a short period of time. At the end of this period, the patient is not only alive, but much better. This turn of events will usually be attributed to a divine healing. Yet the patient may overlook the fact that the doctor's diagnosis may have been wrong in the first place.

The fact is that errors by physicians are more common than most people think, which is reflected by the great number of lawsuits against physicians today. Not all doctors have the same training or experience, or even achieve the same grades in medical school. Again, all these factors make it very simplistic to call a miracle what is more likely the result of human error about a prognosis or a diagnosis.

I, myself, have experienced a mistaken prediction of death. In late 1978, and more dramatically in 1979, I began to develop a disease called Wegener's Granulomatosis, but it was frequently misdiagnosed by doctors until 1980. The cause of the illness is unknown, but it appears that the body's immune system begins to attack its own tissues as though they were foreign implants. In 1986, one doctor told me that I would not live past 1988 without major surgery. Although I am not 100% healthy, I am still alive, and the doctor has admitted that he was wrong.

Many improvements in medical conditions are called miracles because there is still much to learn about the natural recuperative abilities of the body. For example, even until recently cancer was thought by many to be incurable. Yet today it is known that there are hundreds of types of cancer, and not all of them are incurable. [15] Now it is known that the body has many substances that provide greater resistance against cancer in some persons, and in some cases these substances even result in the reversal of cancerous conditions that were previously thought to have been incurable in every case. There are differences in biochemical abilities of persons to resist disease. This is why some people can smoke every day of their lives yet live until 90 years of age without major problems, while most people might die at a younger age from smoking. Many researchers argue that stress or other emotional states can affect the ability of the body to fight or recuperate from disease. [16]

But even if you recovered from a potentially deadly illness in some unexpected manner, you still cannot know if it was an act of God. The most we could say is that the recovery was accomplished through an unknown process. Many recuperations that may appear supernaturally miraculous may be due to very natural processes which have not been recognized or studied previously. Indeed, one can draw up a long list of phenomena that were unknown 100 years ago but are deemed perfectly natural today. In fact, most believers in prayer have received conventional medical treatment, and so one cannot eliminate the possibility that it was the medical treatment, not the prayer, that actually had a beneficial effect, even when such an effect might be unexpected.

In all of this we must not forget that there is a dark side to prayer. I've seen people die or suffer unnecessarily because they waited too long for their god to answer a prayer. Belief in prayer also opens the door for those who prey on the fragile hopes of vulnerable patients. Dossey, Byrd, and other likeminded "physicians" should focus on helping people manage medical problems with real medical solutions, and help people confront reality when there are no medical solutions.


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## bullethead (Nov 4, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> I don't know.  That's why I said "likely" several times.  Did you read that part?  I'm making an assumption because had they prayed rightly....prayer always works.
> 
> The Bible tells us very clearly that prayers can be "hindered" for certain reasons.  I know of six.  But I'm sure there may be more.
> 
> ...



There is always an outcome with or without prayer and it is always the same outcome.


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## bullethead (Nov 4, 2011)

dawg2 said:


> Look at it this way and consider this parable:
> 
> A guy falls overboard and is lost at sea floating.  The man prays to God be saved from certain death and a row boat comes by and the man says “No, I’m waiting for God to save me.”  A little while later a larger boat comes by, and the man says “No, I’m waiting for God to save me.”  Then a helicopter comes by and the man says “No, I’m waiting for God to save me.”  The man eventually drowns and goes to heaven.  When he arrives at the pearly gates he says “God why didn’t you rescue me?” God replies “I sent a row boat, a rescue boat, and a helicopter what else did you want?”
> 
> ...



Yes Dawg good parable but that stuff only happens in Hallmark cards and framed inspirationals in waiting rooms.

I agree on your assessment of the parents except for prayers being answered. They fell far short of their duties.


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## Huntinfool (Nov 4, 2011)

> There is always an outcome with or without prayer and it is always the same outcome.



...and what outcome is that?


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## bullethead (Nov 4, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> ...and what outcome is that?



The outcome is what happens. Whatever happens will happen regardless.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 5, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> ...and what outcome is that?



Whatever God has predestined?

Rebuke the demons in the name of Jesus.....I do that daily, I even open the front door and tell them to get out.

This is an extreme happening and I'm sorry it went that way.
God gives physicians the wisdom to heal us. I mean sheesh how can someone transplant a heart or kidney without the Great Physician guiding their hands even if the physician knows it or not.

Our bodies are out of balance physically sometimes, by what we eat. Diabetics are a perfect example. Menopausal or premenopausel woman are proof of that. We are damaged because we are in this world and our bodies are of the flesh. Flu, colds, strep...etc etc.

Adhd, imbalance
cancer, imbalance
migraines, imbalance
menstruation, hormone imbalance

Our spirit is not of the world but our flesh is. 

Can God heal us, absolutely, can He lead us to our healing, of course. Can He do neither, of course.

I have found out the hard way that girls suffer more from hormonal imbalance to the body and to the brain than people have realized in the past. That is hormonal, can it be fixed, yes it can.

When we don't even know what to pray for the Holy Spirit will intercede for us with groanings too DEEP for words.

Just tell God you don't know what to pray for, but whatever needs to be done, God give you wisdom in it.

Blessings.


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## bullethead (Nov 6, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Whatever God has predestined?
> 
> Rebuke the demons in the name of Jesus.....I do that daily, I even open the front door and tell them to get out.
> 
> ...



Predestined! Exactly! Omniscience & Omnipotence. He knows everything there is to know and everything that will be. The outcome is known before the event happens. Praying will not change anything.
Praying is an excellent way to be close to your god. It is a way to spend one on one time together. It is a way to "get things off your chest". God isn't going to change an outcome of an event because your special or more deserving than someone else. The outcome after prayer is the same outcome without prayer. Only the interpretation differs. Call it the "believers spin".


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## mtnwoman (Nov 6, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Predestined! Exactly! Omniscience & Omnipotence. He knows everything there is to know and everything that will be. The outcome is known before the event happens. Praying will not change anything.
> Praying is an excellent way to be close to your god. It is a way to spend one on one time together. It is a way to "get things off your chest". God isn't going to change an outcome of an event because your special or more deserving than someone else. The outcome after prayer is the same outcome without prayer. Only the interpretation differs. Call it the "believers spin".



So there is no reason to pray for the sick, just pray the Lord's prayer? Because God doesn't say if you ask ye shall receive?....IF....

And why does the HS intercede for us if prayer doesn't change anything if God wants to? because someone obeyed Him?
Romans 8:25-27
King James Version (KJV)


 25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. 

 26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 

 27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

How does God give us the desires of our heart? 

I don't believe predestination to the point that God can't and won't change His mind. I do believe God knows what will happen.  IF He tells us to obey and we do, that can change what would've happened if we didn't obey Him. I am not a robot. If I am, what is this? a game of chess between satan and God and we are just pawns in the game with no will of our own?

Even when it comes to tithing He says prove Me 'IF' I will not open the windows of heaven and pour you out a blessing that you cannot contain. If I don't tithe then He won't. He says to prove Him. But it's only if I obey Him.

How do we know God won't change His mind?

If everything is set in stone, then why are we even here? Is this just a game? God knows the outcome (and I believe that) but I believe by His mercy and grace that He can change things if He wants to. He is God after all. 

He loved David and yet David committed murder, was that in God's will for David to sin against the 10 commandments.  Did God know David would do that? of course He did. But God gave David mercy, and God knew that David loved Him. Did David pray and praise and beg God?....yes he did.

I talk to God almost all day long, but I'm not always asking Him for something. I just talk to Him. Thanking Him mostly for what blessings I have. The way my life has been lived, I could be living under a bridge, and don't deserve much better.

Ask and ye shall receive....how does that happen?
Seek and ye shall find....how does that happen?

I wasn't saved at gunpoint. I was saved because I believe God's word is true and He says that is what we have to do to be saved. I don't have to understand all the scripture. I just have to understand and believe that Jesus is who He says He is.
Jesus said His yoke was light for us, meaning we do not have to memorize the torah and be able to abide fully by the law that even His chosen people could not live by. The law was fullfilled when Jesus died on the cross, and all we have to do is believe what Jesus tells us to do, and one of those is to pray.

Acts 12:4-5
King James Version (KJV)


 4And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people. 

 5Peter therefore was kept in prison: but prayer was made without ceasing of the church unto God for him

Why would you pray without ceasing? Did they think God would change things? Couldn't they be doing something else besides praying if prayer wasn't intended to work?


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## bullethead (Nov 6, 2011)

Bible verses.....gotta love em. Look up the ones where god refuses to answer prayers.

I can think of some horrible situations where victims have the most heinous, vile, and despicable acts done to them sometimes for days months and years. Through the ordeal(s) I can't help but wonder what they ask for and what they receive. Maybe they don't pray "correctly"? Maybe they can't recite the right verse?

Chess game between satan and god??? One is supposed to be all powerful. There should be no games. Either can't beat him or won't. If he can't beat him then the all powerful title is out the window. If he can but won't then why praise him?


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## mtnwoman (Nov 6, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Bible verses.....gotta love em. Look up the ones where god refuses to answer prayers.*Post one or two.*
> 
> I can think of some horrible situations where victims have the most heinous, vile, and despicable acts done to them sometimes for days months and years. Through the ordeal(s) I can't help but wonder what they ask for and what they receive. Maybe they don't pray "correctly"? Maybe they can't recite the right verse?*maybe they don't....maybe someone should teach them. Nobody taught me how to pray ever, and i've lived in hades (viet nam) on earth for 45 years, why, because I was predestined to suffer? or because it would bring me to my knees?*
> 
> Chess game between satan and god??? One is supposed to be all powerful. There should be no games. Either can't beat him or won't. If he can't beat him then the all powerful title is out the window. If he can but won't then why praise him?


  Yeah, well I know what you mean, but I praise Him anyway, because I could not have survived this long without Him....because He leaves us with peace beyond our understanding.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 6, 2011)

bullethead said:


> How does someone pray "rightly"?



What difference does it make if you pray rightly or wrongly, if predestination is set in stone?


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## mtnwoman (Nov 6, 2011)

bullethead said:


> There is always an outcome with or without prayer and it is always the same outcome.



Really? Do you have children? Do you imagine beforehand that you can control them by such and such?  Are you ever surprised by how they react to that, or are you always spot on? and if you are do you give them a break? Can you change your mind? You are the father of your children. Do you always stick to what you say or do you have mercy and grace on them, even if you think they are wrong in their thinking? My God is the Lord of the universe, He can change His mind if He wants to. No, He never changes His original law, but He by His mercy and grace can change things for the children He loves, just like you can change things for your children,because you love them.

We are saved by mercy and grace and that's what my God offers me, and that includes mercy and grace when I am wrong/sinful/a failure/ and when I'm weak to the flesh.


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## bullethead (Nov 7, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Really? Do you have children? Do you imagine beforehand that you can control them by such and such?  Are you ever surprised by how they react to that, or are you always spot on? and if you are do you give them a break? Can you change your mind? You are the father of your children. Do you always stick to what you say or do you have mercy and grace on them, even if you think they are wrong in their thinking? My God is the Lord of the universe, He can change His mind if He wants to. No, He never changes His original law, but He by His mercy and grace can change things for the children He loves, just like you can change things for your children,because you love them.
> 
> We are saved by mercy and grace and that's what my God offers me, and that includes mercy and grace when I am wrong/sinful/a failure/ and when I'm weak to the flesh.



3 boys/men. 24,21 and 15. It is just as you say with our relationship except I do not claim to be the ALL powerful ALL knowing supreme creator. If I was, I'd sure save my boys(and all my 7billion children) a lot of heartache, pain, suffering and evil. Every parent would. The reason we don't is that we cannot eliminate everything...just go crazy trying to do as much as we can, but we try our best.

 I tell ya what. If I was all powerful and there was a drug dealer(lets call him Devil) in town that somehow was untouchable by the authorities despite that daily he hooks the local kids on whatever dope he is selling and runs amok doing whatever he wants blatantly above the law...I'd take care of it. I'd not just warn my kids to stay away from him, nope not a guy that evil. He would be gone without a trace(assuming I am all powerful) for what he does to my children be it the 3 boys or 7 billion worldwide. There is not a father that would sit back and watch it all happen day after day let alone for centuries. With a blink of my eye and a snap of my fingers "devil" would be gone...never to return. The only things stopping me would be that I claim I could do it, but can't. Or I can do it but won't. Either way I am not much of a Father then.


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## bullethead (Nov 7, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> What difference does it make if you pray rightly or wrongly, if predestination is set in stone?



I think your asking the same question as me. That IS my point. One poster on here tells me that praying is not about a right way or wrong way that god will not grant a prayer, it is more about the oneness with god while praying. I was told I do not understand prayer. Then another poster says all prayers are answered but the ones that do not turn out as wished is because they likely prayed incorrectly. I was told I do not know how to pray correctly, god is not a pez-dispenser.


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## bullethead (Nov 7, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Post one or two.


They are posted above in the article I referenced. I find it neat how quickly believers can access verse after verse after verse to support their cause. Yet cannot find of bible verses that counter the ones they post, but also have no idea where to look in the bible or that they even exist.



mtnwoman said:


> Maybe they don't pray "correctly"? Maybe they can't recite the right verse?maybe they don't....maybe someone should teach them. Nobody taught me how to pray ever, and i've lived in hades (viet nam) on earth for 45 years, why, because I was predestined to suffer? or because it would bring me to my knees?


 Praying correctly or incorrectly shouldn't matter. Wouldn't a caring father listen to each child no matter how their styles differ? You now know I have 3 children. When asked to help with homework by each do I only help ONE of them because he asked "correctly" and send the other two away trying to figure it out for themselves and trying to figure how they should have approached me and worded their question???


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## mtnwoman (Nov 8, 2011)

bullethead said:


> They are posted above in the article I referenced. I find it neat how quickly believers can access verse after verse after verse to support their cause. Yet cannot find of bible verses that counter the ones they post, but also have no idea where to look in the bible or that they even exist.
> 
> 
> Praying correctly or incorrectly shouldn't matter. Wouldn't a caring father listen to each child no matter how their styles differ? You now know I have 3 children. When asked to help with homework by each do I only help ONE of them because he asked "correctly" and send the other two away trying to figure it out for themselves and trying to figure how they should have approached me and worded their question???



Sorry I jumped into the middle of the thread.

I gotcha!

When we obey a command, God can/will react to it, in the way He wills.

There would be no need for prayer, ie 'ask and ye shall receive'...ask for forgiveness and you'll be forgiven, if God could not change the outcome on something/anything/everything if He wills to.


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## bullethead (Nov 8, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Sorry I jumped into the middle of the thread.
> 
> I gotcha!
> 
> ...



That statement would be true if it has not been repeatedly shown that prayer has no effect on the outcome of any situation. Prayer does help the individual as far as spiritual feeling but there is no difference in the outcome. A person can pray to their god, a rock, a soda bottle or not pray at all and the results will be what they will be. It just so happens that when the results are favorable to what that individual has prayed for they will give the credit to whoever or whatever they prayed to for making it happen.

If a loved one goes in for surgery and you pray for their safety throughout the ordeal and they come out of it unscathed then you are thankful to God that he has helped them...right? Well what if a best friend has also prayed for the loved ones safety but prayed to another God?? Who gets the credit? What happens if the Janitor, a caring & compassionate person, sees your worry and anxiety in the waiting room and goes into the janitor closet and asks the bottle of Spic&Span to watch over your loved one and make them pull through alright.... now we have a three way tie , each with a valid claim that whatever they did worked. In the next room there could be a homeless person that was run over by a train...no friends or family know about it or care, no one to pray for them, yet they come out of the operation perfectly fine. Who gets the credit? Yet in a 3rd room a little girl gets her tonsils out...routine operation, room filled with friends and family all praying for her and everything goes fine. 3 days later she dies of a staph infection........????? Meant to be?? God's Will? Predestined? or just one of the stinky possibilities that could happen when you go to a hospital????


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## ambush80 (Nov 8, 2011)

bullethead said:


> No! Lay it on me!



Don't know how to imbed video so I will PM it to you.  Atlas posted it in another thread.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 8, 2011)

bullethead said:


> That statement would be true if it has not been repeatedly shown that prayer has no effect on the outcome of any situation. Prayer does help the individual as far as spiritual feeling but there is no difference in the outcome. A person can pray to their god, a rock, a soda bottle or not pray at all and the results will be what they will be. It just so happens that when the results are favorable to what that individual has prayed for they will give the credit to whoever or whatever they prayed to for making it happen.
> 
> If a loved one goes in for surgery and you pray for their safety throughout the ordeal and they come out of it unscathed then you are thankful to God that he has helped them...right? Well what if a best friend has also prayed for the loved ones safety but prayed to another God?? Who gets the credit? What happens if the Janitor, a caring & compassionate person, sees your worry and anxiety in the waiting room and goes into the janitor closet and asks the bottle of Spic&Span to watch over your loved one and make them pull through alright.... now we have a three way tie , each with a valid claim that whatever they did worked. In the next room there could be a homeless person that was run over by a train...no friends or family know about it or care, no one to pray for them, yet they come out of the operation perfectly fine. Who gets the credit? Yet in a 3rd room a little girl gets her tonsils out...routine operation, room filled with friends and family all praying for her and everything goes fine. 3 days later she dies of a staph infection........????? Meant to be?? God's Will? Predestined? or just one of the stinky possibilities that could happen when you go to a hospital????



Well I've never thought about praying to a spic and span bottle, but I do know that I have had things that I have overcome because of prayer. It wasn't a life and death situation...potentially it could've been in the long run, I suppose. But I know by my own power from trying to overcome, that I couldn't do it...because I tried for quite a few years without God to do it, and when I finally came to my knees, I was delivered in the twinkling of an eye. And I mean in a day and still am to this day, and it's been 16 yrs. and I still pray everyday about it, because I'm tempted every day, because my flesh is weak but my spirit is strong when connected to God, my redeemer, my deliverer, my rock, my saviour, my healer, my strength.

I know that I know that I know, it would just have to be something you experienced supernaturally and there's no other explantion for it.  And because of that, I can help others in the same situation, but it's the Jesus  working thru me that does the work. If I wasn't convicted to do so, I'd be sittin' in front of the tv all day, eatin' pizza and making jewelry, and sometimes I still do that...until someone rolls up on me that needs help and I pray for those people to come my way, too, and they do.


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## bullethead (Nov 8, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Well I've never thought about praying to a spic and span bottle, but I do know that I have had things that I have overcome because of prayer. It wasn't a life and death situation...potentially it could've been in the long run, I suppose. But I know by my own power from trying to overcome, that I couldn't do it...because I tried for quite a few years without God to do it, and when I finally came to my knees, I was delivered in the twinkling of an eye. And I mean in a day and still am to this day, and it's been 16 yrs. and I still pray everyday about it, because I'm tempted every day, because my flesh is weak but my spirit is strong when connected to God, my redeemer, my deliverer, my rock, my saviour, my healer, my strength.
> 
> I know that I know that I know, it would just have to be something you experienced supernaturally and there's no other explantion for it.  And because of that, I can help others in the same situation, but it's the Jesus  working thru me that does the work. If I wasn't convicted to do so, I'd be sittin' in front of the tv all day, eatin' pizza and making jewelry, and sometimes I still do that...until someone rolls up on me that needs help and I pray for those people to come my way, too, and they do.



I have no doubt that YOU believe that to be true, What do you say to someone that has had the same experiences and says Allah, not Jesus is responsible for it all? Is their supernatural experience any less true than yours?


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## mtnwoman (Nov 9, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I have no doubt that YOU believe that to be true, What do you say to someone that has had the same experiences and says Allah, not Jesus is responsible for it all? Is their supernatural experience any less true than yours?



Well let's say that they do pray to allah, which is the same God we believe in, at least in the Torah.  Perhaps that is why they bow and pray everyday, maybe a few times a day to Allah, so I suppose they believe it can happen. Perhaps you should ask one.

But personally I don't want 72 virgins when I get to heaven, well I'm a woman and not a virgin so my chances are slim anyway in that belief. I want what Jesus has to offer me....peace, wellness, loving, strong from longsuffering,equal to everyone else, even the men in heaven. So I guess if all you say COULD happen, then you should pick what each god offers and decide which blessings you would rather receive. I definately don't want to be incarnated, I have had enough of this place...lol..and most of the ones that believe in reincarnation starve in the shadow of a cow...hey eat that cow...and kill reincarnted uncle albert the rat, that eats all the grain.  Jesus says to send help and we do, but they don't want to kill a relative from a past life.

Hey check out who you want your God to be, ya know? We have lots of choices. I've made up my mind.


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## bullethead (Nov 9, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Well let's say that they do pray to allah, which is the same God we believe in, at least in the Torah.  Perhaps that is why they bow and pray everyday, maybe a few times a day to Allah, so I suppose they believe it can happen. Perhaps you should ask one.
> 
> But personally I don't want 72 virgins when I get to heaven, well I'm a woman and not a virgin so my chances are slim anyway in that belief. I want what Jesus has to offer me....peace, wellness, loving, strong from longsuffering,equal to everyone else, even the men in heaven. So I guess if all you say COULD happen, then you should pick what each god offers and decide which blessings you would rather receive. I definately don't want to be incarnated, I have had enough of this place...lol..and most of the ones that believe in reincarnation starve in the shadow of a cow...hey eat that cow...and kill reincarnted uncle albert the rat, that eats all the grain.  Jesus says to send help and we do, but they don't want to kill a relative from a past life.
> 
> Hey check out who you want your God to be, ya know? We have lots of choices. I've made up my mind.



Oh I have asked more than one and according to them everyone else has it wrong

It is more about just picking who you want to be your God. If all the different Gods can answer prayers, and all the different Gods are responsible for creation and all the different Gods offer a better place to go after death.....well then there certainly is not just one God and they all seem to have the same power and none of them fight each other (although their followers kill plenty in their names). So either there are many Gods and none is clearly all powerful or it is just a conglomeration of of peoples imaginations making up what soothes them. I always found it oddly peculiar that each different religions God hates the same people his followers do.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 9, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I have no doubt that YOU believe that to be true, What do you say to someone that has had the same experiences and says Allah, not Jesus is responsible for it all? Is their supernatural experience any less true than yours?



I've never talked to any one who's had the same experience that says Allah performed the miracle or whatever. Have you? Besides Allah is the same God of the OT.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 9, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Oh I have asked more than one and according to them everyone else has it wrong



I'd be interested in hearing some of those experiences, if you wouldn't mind sharing.


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## bullethead (Nov 9, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> I'd be interested in hearing some of those experiences, if you wouldn't mind sharing.



I have been having these kinds of discussions on numerous forums with various religious people for a few years. Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Sun Worshipers, Jews, Satanists, Members of Scientology, and more. I cannot possibly remember word for word what each individuals experiences are but throughout the many conversations I have heard numerous stories about how their God did amazing miraculous things for them, to them and because they had prayers granted. Each religions followers think the being they worship is capable of everything any other religions being is capable of, plus each other religions version is not the "right" one. Heck Christians cannot agree on the how's and why's and will argue till death about how their version is the best version.

If your really interested, search for another religions forum online and read some posts. Some are so what "we" think is whacky, yet what you'll read is totally normal for them and they believe it 1000%. Some are so similar it is spooky. Only the names of the God change but their experiences that they credit to that God is the same.


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## bullethead (Nov 9, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> I've never talked to any one who's had the same experience that says Allah performed the miracle or whatever. Have you? Besides Allah is the same God of the OT.



Is the OT God and NT God different?


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## mtnwoman (Nov 9, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Is the OT God and NT God different?



No...but we didn't have Jesus' persona in the OT.

When Jacob and Esau went their seperate ways, Esau took his teaching of the torah(only) with him. It is believed by some, (and a very interesting story) how Esau was the father of the muslims (sorta). That's why their koran is similar to our torah. Jacob followed the God of the OT and Esau started a 'movement' that made it up as they went.

Jesus' bloodline goes back to Abraham. Esau missed out on all of that, because he branched off or left, however you wanna look at it.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 9, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Praying correctly or incorrectly shouldn't matter. Wouldn't a caring father listen to each child no matter how their styles differ? You now know I have 3 children. When asked to help with homework by each do I only help ONE of them because he asked "correctly" and send the other two away trying to figure it out for themselves and trying to figure how they should have approached me and worded their question???



Well maybe I put that in a bad light. When we don't know what to pray the Holy Spirit will intercede for us with groanings too deep for words.  When we don't know what to pray for or don't know what we need, but we know we need something, the HS will intercede for us. The HS used to be called my spiritual guide, personally.

If  you were helping one of your children with their homework, and all the while you had another one whining and moaning for you to help them the whole time you were trying to help the first child, would that effect your reaction towards the 2nd child?   

If my granddaughters are wanting to go out and play, then of course each wants to be helped first so they can get it over with and go out. So the one that isn't being helped yet will moan and groan like, 'you won't help me...waaaaaaahhhh...you like her more than me.....waaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh', would that be the way you wanted them to ask for help?  I know my daughter don't like it.  

Sometimes God may not like the way we are praying. I can get all bent out of shape waiting on something sometimes. So now He's gonna teach me patience, and I'll be waiting on the "bus" all day.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 9, 2011)

bullethead said:


> 3 boys/men. 24,21 and 15. It is just as you say with our relationship except I do not claim to be the ALL powerful ALL knowing supreme creator. If I was, I'd sure save my boys(and all my 7billion children) a lot of heartache, pain, suffering and evil. Every parent would. The reason we don't is that we cannot eliminate everything...just go crazy trying to do as much as we can, but we try our best.
> 
> I tell ya what. If I was all powerful and there was a drug dealer(lets call him Devil) in town that somehow was untouchable by the authorities despite that daily he hooks the local kids on whatever dope he is selling and runs amok doing whatever he wants blatantly above the law...I'd take care of it. I'd not just warn my kids to stay away from him, nope not a guy that evil. He would be gone without a trace(assuming I am all powerful) for what he does to my children be it the 3 boys or 7 billion worldwide. There is not a father that would sit back and watch it all happen day after day let alone for centuries. With a blink of my eye and a snap of my fingers "devil" would be gone...never to return. The only things stopping me would be that I claim I could do it, but can't. Or I can do it but won't. Either way I am not much of a Father then.



Well that is why I believe God has given us free will and everything in our life is not predestined, because if it were wouldn't we do things only according to His will? Would any of us even be able to sin or be sinned against?

You're asking the same questions I've asked about those who believe in the tulip doctrine of Calvinism. I do believe that prayer can change things, not everything, but according to His will instead of mine. I can do things to sabatoge His blessings.


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## bullethead (Nov 10, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> No...but we didn't have Jesus' persona in the OT.
> 
> When Jacob and Esau went their seperate ways, Esau took his teaching of the torah(only) with him. It is believed by some, (and a very interesting story) how Esau was the father of the muslims (sorta). That's why their koran is similar to our torah. Jacob followed the God of the OT and Esau started a 'movement' that made it up as they went.
> 
> Jesus' bloodline goes back to Abraham. Esau missed out on all of that, because he branched off or left, however you wanna look at it.



Jesus' bloodline goes back to Abraham? Was he the Son of God or the Son of Man? His DNA should be that of God 100%.

God is God OT and NT


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## bullethead (Nov 10, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Well maybe I put that in a bad light. When we don't know what to pray the Holy Spirit will intercede for us with groanings too deep for words.  When we don't know what to pray for or don't know what we need, but we know we need something, the HS will intercede for us. The HS used to be called my spiritual guide, personally.
> 
> If  you were helping one of your children with their homework, and all the while you had another one whining and moaning for you to help them the whole time you were trying to help the first child, would that effect your reaction towards the 2nd child?
> 
> ...



Amazing how something that is made out to be above anything humans can even fathom also has the exact same qualities and faults just like humans. Anger, impatience, limited multi-tasking.... God is what he is in your mind. That is unique to you. There are people who believe in God very strongly that will disagree with your thoughts on how God operates.


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## bullethead (Nov 10, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Well that is why I believe God has given us free will and everything in our life is not predestined, because if it were wouldn't we do things only according to His will? Would any of us even be able to sin or be sinned against?
> 
> You're asking the same questions I've asked about those who believe in the tulip doctrine of Calvinism. I do believe that prayer can change things, not everything, but according to His will instead of mine. I can do things to sabatoge His blessings.



Free Will is a one size fits all answer for all the questions that bring any doubt against the workings of a God. All powerful, All knowing, All Big East, SuperBowl MVP, capable of anything yet lacking in most. When even believers cannot come up with an excuse for why then Free Will is the automatic go to response. Free Will to me means = Does Not Exist.

3 answers to prayer is :
1.YES
2. NO
3. Wait

It is a win-win, no loss, always right system. It works EVERY TIME!!!!
Yes= God answered my prayer
NO= God answered my prayer but denied it.
Wait= Didn't happen immediately, Didn't not happen immediately....limbo until something either way can be interpreted as an answer.

It is no different than praying to any object, any god, and cartoon character.
ONE of those 3 outcomes WILL happen and then it will be credited to whatever the person chooses to believe in..when in reality it is coincidence and just the natural outcome that will or will not happen anyway.


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## bullethead (Nov 10, 2011)

How do I imbed a video???


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## JB0704 (Nov 10, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Free Will to me means = Does Not Exist.



Just curious....how does that "a" equal that "b?"


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## bullethead (Nov 10, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Just curious....how does that "a" equal that "b?"



Free Will is a cop out excuse for a man made-up being. It is a safety valve, a free pass,a get out of jail free card used to explain why such a perfect being would create such an imperfect model of himself. Free Will should mean choice, which would mean unpredictable, which would mean no one but the individual would know until the choice is made. If a God already knows the outcome before it happens it is predestined. If it is predestined then really the choice chosen was gonna happen anyway. If the choice is already known then Free Will cannot be true. No Free Will, No God. Just excuses.


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## bullethead (Nov 10, 2011)

This has been posted before but it is fitting to the topic.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 10, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Free Will is a one size fits all answer for all the questions that bring any doubt against the workings of a God. All powerful, All knowing, All Big East, SuperBowl MVP, capable of anything yet lacking in most. When even believers cannot come up with an excuse for why then Free Will is the automatic go to response. Free Will to me means = Does Not Exist.
> 
> 3 answers to prayer is :
> 1.YES
> ...




Do you really think that just because I'm a Christian that I live fully in God's will all the time? I'd be perfect then. By my choices and free will I remain a sinner trying to not sin. 

Moses was in God's will when he broke the tablets? Or was Moses acting on his own will?

We don't believe the same and that's alright with me, how about you?


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## mtnwoman (Nov 10, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Free Will is a cop out excuse for a man made-up being. It is a safety valve, a free pass,a get out of jail free card used to explain why such a perfect being would create such an imperfect model of himself. Free Will should mean choice, which would mean unpredictable, which would mean no one but the individual would know until the choice is made. If a God already knows the outcome before it happens it is predestined. If it is predestined then really the choice chosen was gonna happen anyway. If the choice is already known then Free Will cannot be true. No Free Will, No God. Just excuses.



Most people, Christians or not, have excuses for the things they do....agree?

So a murderer doesn't have a choice to murder someone or not? Or a child molester doesn't have a choice, they are predestined by God to do those things? They don't have free will? Yet God tells us not to kill or to hurt children. Does God know that person is going to do those things, yes He does but it doesn't happen because God predestined it, it happens because we have free will to do those things.

Just because God knows what is going to happen means it was chosen by Him to happen (predestination). That's why He tells us not to do this or that, because we will suffer for it.  Even I know that if I tell my child not to dive off the top of a ferris wheel because they will die and they do it anyway, and just because I knew it, didn't mean I predestined it for them. They did it by their free will...yet I knew the outcome.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 10, 2011)

I don't like milk, so I skipped the video.  I'm sure it was something else to mock Christians. Does that just tickle your inards? How about live and let live?


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## bullethead (Nov 10, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> I don't like milk, so I skipped the video.  I'm sure it was something else to mock Christians. Does that just tickle your inards? How about live and let live?



I do not get my innards tickled by it. I do not go through life with blinders on either.


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## bullethead (Nov 10, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Most people, Christians or not, have excuses for the things they do....agree?
> 
> So a murderer doesn't have a choice to murder someone or not? Or a child molester doesn't have a choice, they are predestined by God to do those things? They don't have free will? Yet God tells us not to kill or to hurt children. Does God know that person is going to do those things, yes He does but it doesn't happen because God predestined it, it happens because we have free will to do those things.
> 
> Just because God knows what is going to happen means it was chosen by Him to happen (predestination). That's why He tells us not to do this or that, because we will suffer for it.  Even I know that if I tell my child not to dive off the top of a ferris wheel because they will die and they do it anyway, and just because I knew it, didn't mean I predestined it for them. They did it by their free will...yet I knew the outcome.



Can't put God above us in one instance then equal to us in another. You, Me ,us, humans are not all powerful, infallible, omniscient, omnipotent, and capable of  anything and everything above and beyond "normal".


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## bullethead (Nov 10, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Do you really think that just because I'm a Christian that I live fully in God's will all the time? I'd be perfect then. By my choices and free will I remain a sinner trying to not sin.
> 
> Moses was in God's will when he broke the tablets? Or was Moses acting on his own will?
> 
> We don't believe the same and that's alright with me, how about you?



Fully 100% A-OK with me. I like to see how others believe, why, and where they draw their line when their faith is challenged.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 10, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Can't put God above us in one instance then equal to us in another. You, Me ,us, humans are not all powerful, infallible, omniscient, omnipotent, and capable of  anything and everything above and beyond "normal".



No we are not capable, that's why I need the strength of God to overcome the giants in my life.  I did not put God equal to us, God has a perfect will, and most of the time we don't live in that will, we live by our own.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 10, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Fully 100% A-OK with me. I like to see how others believe, why, and where they draw their line when their faith is challenged.



Well thanks....I feel the same way, except when I do it, it's considered forcing my beliefs or nonbeliefs on someone else. And rarely get an answer to any of my quizzes.
And i've noticed just on this page, you've only answered one of my questions, you want answers, you just don't wanna give any answers or don't have one.


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## bullethead (Nov 10, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Well thanks....I feel the same way, except when I do it, it's considered forcing my beliefs or nonbeliefs on someone else. And rarely get an answer to any of my quizzes.
> And i've noticed just on this page, you've only answered one of my questions, you want answers, you just don't wanna give any answers or don't have one.



Annie, I'll tell you anything you want to know about me  personally and my beliefs and thoughts.. I have stated them numerous times on these boards. Heck I'd even give ya some of my secret handloads if ya really needed them.
You asked me to share some conversations I have had with people from other religions. Honestly, other than the vague highlights( like the bottom line statement I made that got you ask me the question) I cannot remember the conversations word for word and I do not want to fill in the blanks with guesses of how it kinda-sorta went. Basically Christians think "they" got it wrong. "They" think Christians got it wrong. And honestly within the denominations there are distinct disagreements on what IS or IS not. Despite the similarities of owing their existence to a higher power, having prayers answered by a higher power, all creation is the result of a higher power etc etc etc each thinks theirs is the ONLY right way. They tout their beliefs and dismiss those of others as being ridiculous. Jesus saved the Christians and a religion was born, but OT God still rules the Jews. Allah rules the roost for Muslims but Mohammad delivered the religion. Hindus have a three in one god that is responsible for everything and on and on and on and on and on.
I just do not think any one is right nor is any one wrong. I also don't have to believe any of them either.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 10, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Fully 100% A-OK with me. I like to see how others believe, why, and where they draw their line when their faith is challenged.



Then you said >>>I cannot remember the conversations word for word and I do not want to fill in the blanks with guesses of how it kinda-sorta went. <<<

You like to see what others believe so you ask them questions... what good does that do when you don't remember their answers?

So back to the tickling, eh?


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## Ronnie T (Nov 10, 2011)

I guess I've gone down this dark trail hundreds or thousands of times in my life.  The answer is always the same for me:  "I don't know".  
I couldn't even begin to explain why certain things happen and certain things change from original expectation.

Everything in life is not God ordained, but I wouldn't even begin to tend to God's business.
I disapprove of someone telling a young mother that "God had a purpose in taking your sweet little baby from you".
Or "some day you'll see God's intent in the death of your dog".
Please!

As for this young man, I hope someone looked for his stash of 'bud'.  Cause there might not be anything wrong with him except being young and dumb.  Who's to say?  But if there was, I'd just as soon go make mud pies than figure out if the parents could have done more or if God turned His back on the family.

I don't know.  No one else does either.


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## bullethead (Nov 10, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Then you said >>>I cannot remember the conversations word for word and I do not want to fill in the blanks with guesses of how it kinda-sorta went. <<<
> 
> You like to see what others believe so you ask them questions... what good does that do when you don't remember their answers?
> 
> So back to the tickling, eh?



A year from now if you can remember our conversations on this thread word for word (without any search function) I'll give ya 3 bucks!

If your honest and want to play, what was my first post to you in this thread? Now no peeking!!!!
Gimme a break!!


I gave you the basic gist. There is no way I can recite paragraphs from individuals that happened over a span of years.  I think I covered it enough where the point was made known.


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## JB0704 (Nov 10, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Free Will is a cop out excuse for a man made-up being. It is a safety valve, a free pass,a get out of jail free card used to explain why such a perfect being would create such an imperfect model of himself........



.....because you say so?  Or, does free will exist, and dang if that don't explain a lot......



bullethead said:


> Free Will should mean choice, which would mean unpredictable, which would mean no one but the individual would know until the choice is made. If a God already knows the outcome before it happens it is predestined. If it is predestined then really the choice chosen was gonna happen anyway. If the choice is already known then Free Will cannot be true. No Free Will, No God. Just excuses.



But, you are forcing predestination into the equation.  You either have it, or free will. 

......what if God doesn't know the future like you have been taught?  What if knowledge of the past, and the "ground rules" allow for a relatively high predictive value, but no foreknowledge of man's choice?  Then, do we still have a "cop-out?"  

I guess my way of looking at it is this (in very simplistic terms): it's kind-of how we see the football season.  We know the rules and players, and their past performances.  We also know there will be a super-bowl at the end.  But, are we really sure who will be playing in it? 

I don't believe the future currently exists.  The only reality is now (otherwise you would have infinite realities.....right?).  If this is the case, then the future may not be completely knowable.  Sure, God knows all of the past and present, and I am certain he knows there is a big game in the end, but, man's free will gets in the way of his will and changes things.....

......every now and then a receiver uses his helmet to catch a pass and the Giants upset the Patriots.......nobody saw that one coming.


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## bullethead (Nov 10, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> .....because you say so?  Or, does free will exist, and dang if that don't explain a lot......
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Again, and I am told this all the time so I like to use that logic against the people who use it when it suits them, God is above and beyond anything we can ever hope to be. Above anything we can fathom. Can't compare God to our knowledge or standards.... Can't compare God to what if's. There are no what if's to a being that is Omniscient and Omnipotent. There is no NOT knowing. Events might not be planned but they cannot be unknown. If they are known before they happen how can there be no foreknowledge? If God is surprised by any action/choice or didn't know the "helmet" catch was NOT going to happen, how can he be either of the O's mentioned above?


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## bullethead (Nov 10, 2011)

I just don't think excuses, what if's, maybe's  are fitting for anyone to use if they claim their God capabilities are infinite. It is either Yes, CAN, Knows, or No, Can't, Doesn't Know. Each group tells a tale.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 11, 2011)

bullethead said:


> A year from now if you can remember our conversations on this thread word for word (without any search function) I'll give ya 3 bucks!
> 
> If your honest and want to play, what was my first post to you in this thread? Now no peeking!!!!
> Gimme a break!!
> ...




I can't remember because I ain't fishing or quizzling. If I really wanted to know I'd remember what the answer was. If I was just stirring a pot, I quizzle peeps about what they believe and conveniently not recall when someone asks you what were the answers from those other folks from many beliefs,  that you  quizzed or that you talked to about the subject.

I could claim that I've quizzelled all kinds of folks all over the world and "prove" my point  against your opinion, but I can't remember the answers those folks I quizzed had. But I remember it was a good one....lol.....but still can't and won't answer your questions.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 11, 2011)

bullethead said:


> If they are known before they happen how can there be no foreknowledge? If God is surprised by any action/choice or didn't know the "helmet" catch was NOT going to happen, how can he be either of the O's mentioned above?



I ask you once again......


If your kid is on top of a ferris wheel and he wants to see if he can fly, but you know he can't and you tell him not to try, because if he does you know that he would die....and pretty much all of us would agree diving off the top of a ferris wheel, you'd probably die.  But he does anyway, and he dies just like you knew he would...would that be your will for him? Could you have saved him if he had abided by your will for him?...of course you could.
But because your child has free will, just like all of us have free will....he dove off the ferris wheel anyway...did you know it would happen? of course you did. Could you have saved him by your will had he obeyed? yes of course.

But he perished by his own free will because he did not obey someone that was a tad bit wiser than he was.


----------



## mtnwoman (Nov 11, 2011)

JB0704;6459711
But said:
			
		

> Right on my brother, you don't have both.


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## bullethead (Nov 11, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> I can't remember because I ain't fishing or quizzling. If I really wanted to know I'd remember what the answer was. If I was just stirring a pot, I quizzle peeps about what they believe and conveniently not recall when someone asks you what were the answers from those other folks from many beliefs,  that you  quizzed or that you talked to about the subject.
> 
> I could claim that I've quizzelled all kinds of folks all over the world and "prove" my point  against your opinion, but I can't remember the answers those folks I quizzed had. But I remember it was a good one....lol.....but still can't and won't answer your questions.



Oh I get it, you do not recognize an answer when you see it. If you go back, the answers are there. Clearly.


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## vowell462 (Nov 11, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> I ask you once again......
> 
> 
> If your kid is on top of a ferris wheel and he wants to see if he can fly, but you know he can't and you tell him not to try, because if he does you know that he would die....and pretty much all of us would agree diving off the top of a ferris wheel, you'd probably die.  But he does anyway, and he dies just like you knew he would...would that be your will for him? Could you have saved him if he had abided by your will for him?...of course you could.
> ...



Im not sure if there is a question here. Youve already answered for him. Either way, strange analogy. So basically, God tells us in ancient text how to live, what to do, what not to do, etc. Times start to change, people and modernization diverts people into different ways of living, astraying them away or maybe not even being taught thousands of years later. 

So now, more people in the world, education and what we KNOW now are far superior than the old days. But we are still suppose to abide by text from god put together by man in ancient times. So, when im about to make a dumb decision, I need to fall back on this ancient word and not my intuition ( or free will). That text sure doesnt seem smart in alot of places to me, so it being a tad wiser makes me question. 

Ive never have had god speak to me, and yes ive asked. I know youre going to say you have as well as others, but theres no way I will ever believe that. Point is, God should have stepped in and told the boy not to jump. That would have changed things. And made alot more people follow him.


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## bullethead (Nov 11, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> I ask you once again......
> 
> 
> If your kid is on top of a ferris wheel and he wants to see if he can fly, but you know he can't and you tell him not to try, because if he does you know that he would die....and pretty much all of us would agree diving off the top of a ferris wheel, you'd probably die.  But he does anyway, and he dies just like you knew he would...would that be your will for him? Could you have saved him if he had abided by your will for him?...of course you could.
> ...



I would not only advise him against it but I would do everything possible to stop him. I would physically drag him off that Ferris wheel and get him help...or I would die trying.

THE difference between me and a God is that if I were a God....I'd know not to let him around a Ferris wheel. As a human I don't know what anyone else is thinking, supposedly God does???? If a God cared as much about his children as I do my own, and possesses the powers that his followers says he has......there would be no Ferris Wheel incident. As a parent I can, have, and will prevent everything humanly possible that I see coming or think is best for my children. I am only human though. What's his excuse?


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## bullethead (Nov 11, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Right on my brother, you don't have both.



Yes. I agree. Time after time I have seen people use both to explain God and his actions, or lack of actions.

If your friend is on an operating table and it is a 50/50 chance of survival and he dies, well then "It was his time" "God wanted him " "He was meant to be in Heaven" "God has plans for him" All comforting lines to say to the grieving family but is any of it true?
Heyyyy, what happened to his free will?


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## JB0704 (Nov 11, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> So basically, God tells us in ancient text how to live, what to do, what not to do, etc. Times start to change, people and modernization diverts people into different ways of living, astraying them away or maybe not even being taught thousands of years later..



The modern deviations from the ancient text are spelled out in the NT (abide under grace, not law). The times changed in the NT, not today. But, many of the basic concepts of the OT are still valid today (and yes, they are universal and not unique to Christianity).  A good example is lieing, cheating, murder, etc.   




vowell462 said:


> So, when im about to make a dumb decision, I need to fall back on this ancient word and not my intuition ( or free will). That text sure doesnt seem smart in alot of places to me, so it being a tad wiser makes me question...



When you are about to make a "dumb decision," it would be "dumb" to consult the book of Esther, or Jonah, or any of the history books.  For wisdom, you got to go to the wisdom books, such as Proverbs, which is still applicable today and works the same for both believers and non-believers.  Give it a read, and really, it is the best "training manual" around for being a good man.....thousands of years later. 



vowell462 said:


> Ive never have had god speak to me, and yes ive asked. .



Me either.  Faith doesn't work like that.  




vowell462 said:


> Point is, God should have stepped in and told the boy not to jump. That would have changed things. And made alot more people follow him.



But that also would have elliminated the choice for the boy.  If God operated under your parameters (and those claimed by many Christians), we would be mindless robots incapable of choosing God.  In that way, there would be no faith and no choice.  Instead, we are given a choice to jump or not.  It's not God's fault.

A good friend and long-time hunting buddy of mine was killed this spring in a car wreck.  Several of the guys wanted to ask God why he let our buddy die at such a young age.  The truth is, God didn't let him die, my friend chose to act foolish behind the wheel and caused his own demise.  I miss him terribly, and this has been a very tough hunting season for me, but it is not God's fault.  The same can be said for most bad things.  What if the accident wasn't his fault, well, it could have been the fault of somebody else.  I don't see how God has to micro-manage the universe to be God.


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## JB0704 (Nov 11, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Yes. I agree. Time after time I have seen people use both to explain God and his actions, or lack of actions.
> 
> If your friend is on an operating table and it is a 50/50 chance of survival and he dies, well then "It was his time" "God wanted him " "He was meant to be in Heaven" "God has plans for him" All comforting lines to say to the grieving family but is any of it true?
> Heyyyy, what happened to his free will?



People say things.  To me, the comfort is not in whether or not it was their time, it is in the idea that they are not finished.  Faith can't exist without free will.  Free will cannot exist if everything is already written.  You got to look at it from one angle or the other.  I think you put too much stock in what people say instead of what logic or even the Bible would indicate when it comes to your perspective on God.


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## ambush80 (Nov 11, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Most people, Christians or not, have excuses for the things they do....agree?
> 
> So a murderer doesn't have a choice to murder someone or not? Or a child molester doesn't have a choice, they are predestined by God to do those things? They don't have free will? Yet God tells us not to kill or to hurt children. Does God know that person is going to do those things, yes He does but it doesn't happen because God predestined it, it happens because we have free will to do those things.
> 
> Just because God knows what is going to happen means it was chosen by Him to happen (predestination). That's why He tells us not to do this or that, because we will suffer for it.  Even I know that if I tell my child not to dive off the top of a ferris wheel because they will die and they do it anyway, and just because I knew it, didn't mean I predestined it for them. They did it by their free will...yet I knew the outcome.




If you could see the future then you would know if he was gonna dive off the ferris wheel.  What would be the point of telling him not to?  Then again, if you knew the future, you would already knew whether or not you would warn them......


What I've come to realize, most importantly, is that the notion of some super being that can see the future is a ridiculous one and musings on such a thing should be done for amusement purposes only.


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## bullethead (Nov 11, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> People say things.  To me, the comfort is not in whether or not it was their time, it is in the idea that they are not finished.  Faith can't exist without free will.  Free will cannot exist if everything is already written.  You got to look at it from one angle or the other.  I think you put too much stock in what people say instead of what logic or even the Bible would indicate when it comes to your perspective on God.



I look at it like I don't believe any of it.


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## SkeeterEater (Nov 11, 2011)

I watch Paris Hilton flicks to even my mind


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## bullethead (Nov 11, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> I ask you once again......
> 
> 
> If your kid is on top of a ferris wheel and he wants to see if he can fly, but you know he can't and you tell him not to try, because if he does you know that he would die....and pretty much all of us would agree diving off the top of a ferris wheel, you'd probably die.  But he does anyway, and he dies just like you knew he would...would that be your will for him? Could you have saved him if he had abided by your will for him?...of course you could.
> ...



If you knew your kid wanted to jump off a ferris wheel would you do everything in your power to stop it from happening whether or not your kid wanted to do it?  If you found a suicide note with their intentions would you race to the wheel? If you could stop time and grab them before they jumped would you? We as parents have to use the knowledge we have and are limited. A powerful god does not have those limits(according to it's followers) so YES i fully expect it to be involved in all 7 billion of it's children's decisions....precisely because he is supposed to be capable of handling it without breaking a sweat.


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## JB0704 (Nov 11, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I look at it like I don't believe any of it.



I know, but I also think you use many believer's perspective to justify your lack of belief.  Whether you believe or not, if you choose to examine God, or his existence, you might want to start from scratch.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 11, 2011)

bullethead said:


> If you knew your kid wanted to jump off a ferris wheel would you do everything in your power to stop it from happening whether or not your kid wanted to do it?  If you found a suicide note with their intentions would you race to the wheel? If you could stop time and grab them before they jumped would you? We as parents have to use the knowledge we have and are limited. A powerful god does not have those limits(according to it's followers) so YES i fully expect it to be involved in all 7 billion of it's children's decisions....precisely because he is supposed to be capable of handling it without breaking a sweat.



If God did that then we wouldn't have free will and we'd all be robots. We'd all be perfect and we wouldn't be jumping off ferris wheels, nor drinking, nor arguing, nor eating anything that wasn't good for us.

My point in that story was to point out free will, not to debate about the power of God. Yes, He can do anything He wants to.
And I wasn't talking about suicide I was talking about a child doing something disobediently. Like don't do cartwheels on the freeway, the child may not know what could happen, but we do know and we tell them not to do things where they could get hurt and they disobey and get hurt and just because we knew they would get hurt, they still had free will to do it anyway no matter what their father said.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 11, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> If you could see the futureThat would be the equivalent of saying then you would know if he was gonna dive off the ferris wheel.  What would be the point of telling him not to?  Then again, if you knew the future, you would already knew whether or not you would warn them......
> 
> ...



I'm not talking about an adult child, I'm talking about a 2 yr old being disobedient and you're telling them to sit down and buckle up and they don't...not suicide

Well your reality is different than mine, as far as your choice of amusement or what you think amusement is....and you have free will to choose that.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 11, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I look at it like I don't believe any of it.



Well be glad you have free to choose that way....if you didn't God could make you believe, just like He could make the kid not jump off the ferris wheel.


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## bullethead (Nov 11, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I know, but I also think you use many believer's perspective to justify your lack of belief.  Whether you believe or not, if you choose to examine God, or his existence, you might want to start from scratch.



I have and this is where the journey has taken me so far.


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## SkeeterEater (Nov 11, 2011)

There are no such things as demons / Ghost / Angels / Tooth Faries / Easter Bunny / God or Bigfoot.

IMO


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## bullethead (Nov 11, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Well be glad you have free to choose that way....if you didn't God could make you believe, just like He could make the kid not jump off the ferris wheel.



Thank an imaginary being that does not exist for something he cannot possibly give me. OKAY


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## mtnwoman (Nov 11, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Thank an imaginary being that does not exist for something he cannot possibly give me. OKAY



Why are you really here? you obviously are not curious in what others believe, like you stated before, you are only interested in having a come back like this one, that could be insulting to some, trying to just stir up a pot.  And I'm sorry for you that you are not more open minded.

What difference does it make what I believe? If I'm wrong, I'll just die and I'll never know the difference.
But if I am right, maybe you should be looking for an asbestos suit


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## mtnwoman (Nov 11, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Thank an imaginary being that does not exist for something he cannot possibly give me. OKAY



I'll thank Him right after I pray for you. And you're probably gonna say you don't need prayer blah blah blah, but I'm prayin' anyway.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 11, 2011)

SkeeterEater said:


> There are no such things as demons / Ghost / Angels / Tooth Faries / Easter Bunny / God or Bigfoot.
> 
> IMO



Well you have every right to your opinion, just like the rest of us do.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 11, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I have and this is where the journey has taken me so far.



Maybe you should start a little higher up than us.  Just pretend for a moment that it's possible that God is real, I mean no body can really prove that either way, can they?
So just pretend God is real and ask Him to reveal Himself to you, and even if you've done it before, do it again. Just use your imagination.


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## SkeeterEater (Nov 11, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Maybe you should start a little higher up than us.  Just pretend for a moment that it's possible that God is real, I mean no body can really prove that either way, can they?
> So just pretend God is real and ask Him to reveal Himself to you, and even if you've done it before, do it again. Just use your imagination.



So your asking us to imagine things?


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## bullethead (Nov 11, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Why are you really here? you obviously are not curious in what others believe, like you stated before, you are only interested in having a come back like this one, that could be insulting to some, trying to just stir up a pot.  And I'm sorry for you that you are not more open minded.
> 
> What difference does it make what I believe? If I'm wrong, I'll just die and I'll never know the difference.
> But if I am right, maybe you should be looking for an asbestos suit



I am here for the same reason you are here. Civil conversations about beliefs. They turn into thrusts and jabs when one side decides to take it there. I am trying to figure out how an individual can explain the unexplainable. How can a person know what God wants when we are continually told we cannot understand God? How can one person understand him better than another without ever actually talking to him?
Insulting is being told I am going to burn if I do not believe a certain way.  Because clearly of all the worlds religions and all the worlds beliefs it is either the Christian way or no way. Believe or Burn.  Very Open Minded indeed.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 11, 2011)

SkeeterEater said:


> So your asking us to imagine things?



Yeah like you imagine hitting that 48 point buck...biggest buck ever nailed.....ever.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 11, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I am here for the same reason you are here. Civil conversations about beliefs. They turn into thrusts and jabs when one side decides to take it there. I am trying to figure out how an individual can explain the unexplainable. How can a person know what God wants when we are continually told we cannot understand God? How can one person understand him better than another without ever actually talking to him?
> Insulting is being told I am going to burn if I do not believe a certain way.  Because clearly of all the worlds religions and all the worlds beliefs it is either the Christian way or no way. Believe or Burn.  Very Open Minded indeed.




Do you really want the answers to those questions? If you do I'll tell you what I believe, but I would appreciate you not coming back with a wisecrack.....as you can see by my wisecrack about the asbestos suit, it doesn't feel so good to constantly berate someone for what they do or do not believe.  You can do it but I can't????? answer that.


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## bullethead (Nov 11, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Maybe you should start a little higher up than us.  Just pretend for a moment that it's possible that God is real, I mean no body can really prove that either way, can they?
> So just pretend God is real and ask Him to reveal Himself to you, and even if you've done it before, do it again. Just use your imagination.



Did for @20 years. Have more than a bunch since. I do not have to pretend God is real unless that is the key to it all.  Nobody can prove a negative. We can only prove things that are positive and actually exist. There are many things that are imaginary and the reason they are imaginary is because they do not exist. For the first 20 years of my life I have thought as many Christians do. I didn't dare question anything religious. I went through life with blinders on. A few bad experiences with organized religion got me thinking in another direction and since then that direction is more real and makes more sense to me than everything I was taught  before that. I stopped pretending 20 years ago.


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## bullethead (Nov 11, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Do you really want the answers to those questions? If you do I'll tell you what I believe, but I would appreciate you not coming back with a wisecrack.....as you can see by my wisecrack about the asbestos suit, it doesn't feel so good to constantly berate someone for what they do or do not believe.  You can do it but I can't????? answer that.



I have never told you that you are wrong. I keep asking questions. I answer yours with scenarios that makes sense and yes they do counter yours. I think you mistake  my honesty with wisecracks.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 11, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I am here for the same reason you are here. Civil conversations about beliefs. They turn into thrusts and jabs when one side decides to take it there. I am trying to figure out how an individual can explain the unexplainable. *My belief is that it cannot be explained on a human level. I can understand it by studying God's word, listening to bible teachers, I understand it in my heart and mind and can explain some things to other believers. But I cannot convince an unbeliever there is a God in human terms, any more than an unbeliever can convince me there is no God. * How can a person know what God wants when we are continually told we cannot understand God? How can one person understand him better than another without ever actually talking to him? *Who continually tells you that you cannot understand God? I cannot explain all of God's ways. Even the Bible tells us that it is impossible.*



Neither you nor I can prove whether God exists or not.  You can't prove it to me that He doesn't, since I've met the Holy Spirit, which I used to call my spiritual guide. 
And I can't prove it to you that He does, especially if you are closed to even the possibility. But you cannot prove He doesn't exist. The same way I cannot prove that evolution is only a theory.  Which by that way I'm not totally positive on evolution either way. I'm open on that. I also believe in divine creation.  It's not something that matters enough to me to debate it....I'm too busy trying to work on myself and my 'sins', trying to hit the mark.

I've always kept the word of God simple, my father had lots of emotional problems throughout the years trying to figure out too many things, including a lot of doctrines that divide the churchs up into 'denominations'. 

I left the church for 30 yrs and if you don't believe in demons, if you knew me then, you'd know I was 'demon
possessed'....for lack of a better way to explain it. 

I have been and still do get angry at God for even letting me go down that path. I went from being totally straight at age 23, to doing every drug on earth in just one year. The 'devil' walked into my life and I ran off with him. It was downhill from there for 23 more years.

And out of the clear blue God snatched me back....He says in His word that nothing will snatch you out of the palm of His hand. I was saved and baptized at 12 and even though I didn't realize it then, I thought I was totally lost and hidden from God. He left the 90 and 9 sheep and came and got His lost lamb, that only thought she was lost, God always knew where she was. His word says that.

When that happened, I was changed in a day, seriously, in one day, in the twinkling of an eye...even with a hangover and not a bad one either. Then hind sight being 20/20 I could see all the times I should've died and I knew that it was God...because exactly what He said in His word He would do, He did it.  I can't prove that to you. I can only tell you how I now know.  The Good Shepherd as He said in His word that nothing could snatch me out of His hand, and He snatched me back.  

There's more, but that's one reason I believe in God. No I can't prove it to you, I can only tell you what I believe has been proven to me.


----------



## mtnwoman (Nov 11, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I have never told you that you are wrong. I keep asking questions. I answer yours with scenarios that makes sense and yes they do counter yours. I think you mistake  my honesty with wisecracks.



Well I honestly feel that one day, both of us will have proof, too......I honestly believe that I'm going to heaven....that's honestly, too. See any difference?


----------



## mtnwoman (Nov 11, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Did for @20 years. Have more than a bunch since. I do not have to pretend God is real unless that is the key to it all.  Nobody can prove a negative. We can only prove things that are positive and actually exist. There are many things that are imaginary and the reason they are imaginary is because they do not exist. For the first 20 years of my life I have thought as many Christians do. I didn't dare question anything religious. I went through life with blinders on. A few bad experiences with organized religion got me thinking in another direction and since then that direction is more real and makes more sense to me than everything I was taught  before that. I stopped pretending 20 years ago.



Been there.

That is your belief, but you cannot prove you are right in my opinion, no more than I can prove I'm right. So you don't need to keep telling me that God doesn't exist to you, I gotcha on that, ok? If you ask questions, then I'm going to answer them, with my own opinion....isn't that what you want, or you just wanting an answer that you can tell me again how God is imaginary, He isn't to me.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 11, 2011)

BH, Can you prove to me that God doesn't exist? If someone were on the fence of believing God or not, how would you convince them there isn't a God?


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## bullethead (Nov 11, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> BH, Can you prove to me that God doesn't exist? If someone were on the fence of believing God or not, how would you convince them there isn't a God?



Not being able to prove something that does not exist is not proof that it exists. 

You believe that there is but One God. But yet by your logic you cannot prove that another just as powerful god does not exist, you can't prove that an even greater more powerful god does not exist and for all your might you cannot prove that hundreds of Gods ten times greater and more powerful than the Christian God do not exist. You cannot prove they don't exist so then do they exist? If they exist then the Christian God is not who it claims to be. If the Christian God exists because I cannot prove he doesn't, then the other Gods exist. If you accept one then you must accept them all.

I can't prove there is not unicorns, widgets, trolls, dragons, ghosts, vampires, where wolves, flying monkeys, wizards, Santa Claus, Easter Bunnies, Loch Ness Monsters, BigFoots, flying carpets etc etc etc. So then it is logical for me to think that they actually exist or they are still imaginary and make believe?


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## bullethead (Nov 11, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> BH, Can you prove to me that God doesn't exist? If someone were on the fence of believing God or not, how would you convince them there isn't a God?



Which God? Can I prove one is not more real than another?


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## mtnwoman (Nov 11, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Which God? Can I prove one is not more real than another?*Come on, surely you've debated enough in your life to know what a person is talking about...what God have I been talking about? That God (the God of the Bible)....good grief...it's like pulling teeth around here to get a straight answer.*



Would you please stop answering a question with another question?

Ok let me try this again, if someone you know is teetering on the fence and they are trying to decide whether they wanted to become a Christian or not.....just pretend, will ya? If that person ask you if you believed in the God of the Bible and you said no and they said why not, what would your answer be?

And if they then ask you how could you prove to them that the God of the Bible didn't exist...how would you answer them?


----------



## mtnwoman (Nov 11, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Not being able to prove something that does not exist is not proof that it exists.
> 
> You believe that there is but One God. But yet by your logic you cannot prove that another just as powerful god does not exist, you can't prove that an even greater more powerful god does not exist and for all your might you cannot prove that hundreds of Gods ten times greater and more powerful than the Christian God do not exist. You cannot prove they don't exist so then do they exist? If they exist then the Christian God is not who it claims to be. If the Christian God exists because I cannot prove he doesn't, then the other Gods exist. If you accept one then you must accept them all.
> 
> I can't prove there is not unicorns, widgets, trolls, dragons, ghosts, vampires, where wolves, flying monkeys, wizards, Santa Claus, Easter Bunnies, Loch Ness Monsters, BigFoots, flying carpets etc etc etc. So then it is logical for me to think that they actually exist or they are still imaginary and make believe?



I don't have to accept any other Gods and I've never said they don't exist. The God of the Bible, says not to have any other gods before Him, that leads me to believe that there are people that worship other gods...doesn't mean I have to accept those gods as my god now does it? 

And besides I had a real santa claus when I was little, it was my daddy. He's gone now. And guess what there are flying monkeys.  And trust me there are trolls, too.  My daughter has 2 easter bunnies, they are mini easter bunnies.  There are witches and wizards, too. And in my bead making tools I have lots of widgets.

No matter what you say there is no proof that you have come up yet without naming cartoon characters that proves there isn't a God of the Bible.

How do you know there is an albino deer? Have you seen one in real life? Have you seen hundreds of albino squirrells in a pack in real life?  So basically you're saying just because you haven't seen a leprican that they don't exist, or a dinosauer, anything you haven't seen doesn't exist eh? Well alrighty then.

I bet you don't believe wrestling is real either, do ya?


----------



## bullethead (Nov 11, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Would you please stop answering a question with another question?
> 
> Ok let me try this again, if someone you know is teetering on the fence and they are trying to decide whether they wanted to become a Christian or not.....just pretend, will ya? If that person ask you if you believed in the God of the Bible and you said no and they said why not, what would your answer be?
> 
> And if they then ask you how could you prove to them that the God of the Bible didn't exist...how would you answer them?



I would tell them I do not believe because I do not think ONE religion is any more right than another religion. I would say the writings of ancient men are not the work of a supreme being and the book that they tout as his work reflects that.

I would say that it takes tangible evidence to prove something exists. There is no tangible evidence to prove a God exists.


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## bullethead (Nov 11, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> I don't have to accept any other Gods and I've never said they don't exist. The God of the Bible, says not to have any other gods before Him, that leads me to believe that there are people that worship other gods...doesn't mean I have to accept those gods as my god now does it?
> 
> And besides I had a real santa claus when I was little, it was my daddy. He's gone now. And guess what there are flying monkeys.  And trust me there are trolls, too.  My daughter has 2 easter bunnies, they are mini easter bunnies.  There are witches and wizards, too. And in my bead making tools I have lots of widgets.
> 
> ...



Don't ever let that sense of fun and imagination get away from you.

I don't physically have to see anything to believe it. There is proof of these deer and squirrels existing. There are some alive today and evidence of their existence in the past. 

Don't take my word about Leprechauns and Trolls, if you want to think they are frolicking around go right ahead. 

Unfortunately, except in an individuals heart and mind, there is no evidence of what you think is unprovable existing. 

If you need one word that proves to me God doesn't exist I'll say EVIL.


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## JB0704 (Nov 11, 2011)

bullethead said:


> If you need one word that proves to me God doesn't exist I'll say EVIL.



I think evil is the proof that we are not predestined, not that God doesn't exist.  I have said it before, but to me, existence itself is evidence of the supernatural.  This is what kept me from completely falling off the fence years ago.


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## ted_BSR (Nov 13, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Don't ever let that sense of fun and imagination get away from you.
> 
> I don't physically have to see anything to believe it. There is proof of these deer and squirrels existing. There are some alive today and evidence of their existence in the past.
> 
> ...



Really? That makes no sense at all (and neither do the rest of your posts in this thread). You sound like Rick Perry.

Mountain Woman, meet Bullethead.


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## bullethead (Nov 13, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> Really? That makes no sense at all (and neither do the rest of your posts in this thread). You sound like Rick Perry.
> 
> Mountain Woman, meet Bullethead.




Really? Hop in days later when the conversation is over and your only contribution is condescending remarks towards an individual???

everyone, meet....ahh they already know you and your style...

Sorry if you can't make sense of my posts Ted, get over it and move on. Maybe try not reading them. If I need your opinion I'll PM my posts to you so you can proof read and fix as you like. How long is it scientifically possible to hold your breath?

Ms. Mountain Woman, it was a pleasure to hold your conversation.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 13, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Don't ever let that sense of fun and imagination get away from you.
> 
> I don't physically have to see anything to believe it. There is proof of these deer and squirrels existing. There are some alive today and evidence of their existence in the past.
> 
> ...



Without God, and evil, there would be no understanding of "evil".  Everything would be "normal"
Everything would be the result of how one evolved.


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## bullethead (Nov 13, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Without God, and evil, there would be no understanding of "evil".  Everything would be "normal"
> Everything would be the result of how one evolved.



Ron I can see why you believe that way, but evil is a word to describe the opposite of good. It is way overused. I don't think it all boils down to God & Evil, but Good & Evil.
Evil does not have a universal meaning. 
Evil looking, could be just not attractive
Evil Sounding, could be just not pleasing to your ears
Evil smelling, could be something that does not smell good to you
Evil Mind, could be a genius, just finds smart ways to do bad things
Evil, just another word for Bad
A Quote by William P Young:
“Evil is a word we use to describe the absence of Good, just as we use the word darkness to describe the absence of Light or death to describe the absence of Life. Both evil and darkness can only be understood in relation to Light and Good; they do not have any actual existence.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 14, 2011)

bullethead said:


> A Quote by William P Young:
> “Evil is a word we use to describe the absence of Good, just as we use the word darkness to describe the absence of Light or death to describe the absence of Life. Both evil and darkness can only be understood in relation to Light and Good; they do not have any actual existence.



Wow really. Smart man 

Evil or Good doesn't have any actual existence?
Light and darkness doesn't have any actual existence?

In this world and in the spiritual world, I can see both.

Evil manifests itself in the form of child molesters/killers, which is the worst evil IMO...and you don't even have to believe in the supernatural to see that. They live in darkness, they hide, they do their dirty deeds in dark dirty holes, or at night. They don't do it out in the open in the light where most of us live or can see them.

Good exists, too....in our realm of reality and in the supernatural. Good manifests itself in many ways...and most of us witness those things...sometimes it manifests itself in us, even things we don't understand how it happened, why we thought of it, or why we did it.

We don't see a lot of evil because it is done in darkness or behind closed doors, however you want to look at it. We hear about it, but don't actually view it first hand.

I could go on and on, especially with personal experiences, I guess my gift is discerning of spirits.  But I'll spare y'all of that.

I can close my eyes and see a vertical line, one side is dark and I can't see anything, I'm blind, and the other side is light where most good people choose to live. I don't tread in darkness anymore, and if I it calling me, I rebuke it and it becomes so real that I have to turn all the lights on in my house to keep the demons from luring me back into darkness. I guess that's where natural and supernatural meet.  At the name of Jesus, the demons must flee and leave me alone.

Ramblin' Rose


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## mtnwoman (Nov 14, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Evil does not have a universal meaning. *Really? So some people around the world accept child molestation as ok? How about thieves, nobody likes a thief*
> Evil looking, could be just not attractive*Probably if they are evil looking they are evil, not attractive means ugly to me, not evil*
> Evil Sounding, could be just not pleasing to your ears*The growl in some heavy metal groups sounds evil and offensive to me, however Metallica I like. Rap music that says kill yo mama, is evil, not just sounds evil
> I know the difference in evil sounding and something that just bothers my ears.*
> ...


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## mtnwoman (Nov 14, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Without God, and evil, there would be no understanding of "evil".  Everything would be "normal"
> Everything would be the result of how one evolved.



And the world is coming to that. Almost everything is ok...next thing we know if your sexual preference is a child, then you can't help it, you were just born that way.

If an unborn baby is nothing but a parasite living on a host and cannot live on it's own, so it can be destroyed. Ever see a 2 yr old baby that can survive on it's own? So it could be considered a parasite, too, depending on it's mother for life...we'll be able by definition to destroy them....or the old folks, that can't live on their own any more.

Wait until the rapture and all the good is gone and the Holy Spirit is removed, then people will have a real definition of evil, because that's all that will be left.

Come quickly Lord Jesus!


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## bullethead (Nov 14, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> bullethead said:
> 
> 
> > Evil does not have a universal meaning. *Really? So some people around the world accept child molestation as ok? How about thieves, nobody likes a thief*
> ...


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## bullethead (Nov 14, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> And the world is coming to that. Almost everything is ok...next thing we know if your sexual preference is a child, then you can't help it, you were just born that way.
> 
> If an unborn baby is nothing but a parasite living on a host and cannot live on it's own, so it can be destroyed. Ever see a 2 yr old baby that can survive on it's own? So it could be considered a parasite, too, depending on it's mother for life...we'll be able by definition to destroy them....or the old folks, that can't live on their own any more.
> 
> ...



Do we need God to understand evil and do we need evil to understand God? Can one exist without the other? Seems like neither can do anything about the other.


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## ted_BSR (Nov 15, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Really? Hop in days later when the conversation is over and your only contribution is condescending remarks towards an individual???
> 
> everyone, meet....ahh they already know you and your style...
> 
> ...




Well, I have been gone for a while, but now I am back, and I must say BH, you are as sensitive as ever. You and your lot are the most condescending "debaters" I know, and you can't take it when someone from the other side of the arguement dishes it out a little.

I am sorry that your posts don't make sense, no I am not, that isn't my fault.

I am glad that you had a good talk with MW. I look forward to more intelligent discussions with you, that is what it is all about after all.:cow:


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## bullethead (Nov 15, 2011)

My posts make perfect sense to me and that's all that counts.  I'm not here for anyone else.


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