# Origin?Destiny?Morality?Meaning?



## stringmusic (Nov 16, 2010)

I believe these are the four questions that must be answered in life, EVERYONE wants to have a coherent set of answers for these questions.

For the guys with no belief in anything AND the guys with a belief system different from Christianity, how do you come to a COHERENT set of answers to lifes most important questions?


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## pnome (Nov 16, 2010)

Answer this first:

Is it important to you that the answers to these questions be correct or will any old answer do?


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## TTom (Nov 16, 2010)

Actually String I have issue with Destiny being on the list of questions.

I don't believe in Destiny as it is generally understood.

point 1 that has to be dealt with, while I believe your god is my god you don't believe my god is your god. That is going to be a problem.

Origin

It's going to be tough for you to buy as it mixes science with theology.

God is sentient pure energy, The "Big Bang" was when God took a portion of his energy and converted it into matter. (e=MC2 as m=e/c2) As with atomic explosions where mass is converted to energy this creates a large explosion. 

God then used various means that are explained poorly sometimes by science to bring about life and mankind and any other parts of the universe we don't know about as yet. (yes including evolution).

That's about as much of the Origin question as I'll answer here.

Morality, Mrality I believe to be partially coming from that spark of life that is the image of God spoken of in your bible. But it is not coming from the bible or from any other holy book because it existed before books it existed before writing, it exists to an extent in that still small voice in a human's head that says "How would you like it if they did that to you." Empathy, of the image of god in me for the image of god in you and in every man woman and child regardless of religion.

Meaning, the Meaning of life and all that jazz?

Meaning of life is found far more often in the regrets of the dieing than in the seeming wise words of the living.

I wish I'd done more _________ and spent more time with __________, and valued the time I spent with/ doing _______ mor than I did.

Far more people regret the things they didn't do than regret the things they did do.


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## stringmusic (Nov 16, 2010)

pnome said:


> Answer this first:
> 
> Is it important to you that the answers to these questions be correct or *will any old answer do*?



your opinion will do just fine.It is important that the answers be coherent though, notice I said that in the OP.


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## pnome (Nov 17, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> your opinion will do just fine.It is important that the answers be coherent though, notice I said that in the OP.



Ok then.. let's see here...

Origin?

Unknown

Destiny?

Unknown

Morality?

Here's my best guess:
http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=578954

Meaning?

Unknown


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## stringmusic (Nov 17, 2010)

TTom said:


> Actually String I have issue with Destiny being on the list of questions.


that fine if thats what you think, but you have to admit that most people on this earth would like to have this question anwered.





> point 1 that has to be dealt with, while I believe your god is my god you don't believe my god is your god. That is going to be a problem.


there is only one God

Origin



> It's going to be tough for you to buy as it mixes science with theology.


on the contrary, I believe in science just fine.



> God is sentient pure energy, The "Big Bang" was when God took a portion of his energy and converted it into matter. (e=MC2 as m=e/c2) As with atomic explosions where mass is converted to energy this creates a large explosion.
> 
> God then used various means that are explained poorly sometimes by science to bring about life and mankind and any other parts of the universe we don't know about as yet. (yes including evolution).


I have not done much research on how God created the earth, I just know it was done, I dont find the how needed in my faith, just the what/who. Saying that,one thing I will say is they are poorly explained because they cannot be explained, God is not a formula or equation, He cannot be quantified. I know you didnt say that He was, it just looks like it could go there.





> Morality, Mrality I believe to be partially coming from that spark of life that is the image of God spoken of in your bible. But it is not coming from the bible or from any other holy book because it existed before books it existed before writing, it exists to an extent in that still small voice in a human's head that says "How would you like it if they did that to you." Empathy, of the image of god in me for the image of god in you and in every man woman and child regardless of religion.


if we have the same God, as you earlier stated, how do you discredit the Bible, and no, morality did not come from the Bible it came from God from the beginning. A moral law giver must be if there is a moral law.



> Meaning, the Meaning of life and all that jazz?
> 
> Meaning of life is found far more often in the regrets of the dieing than in the seeming wise words of the living.
> 
> ...


I understand what your saying, but do you have an answer for meaning?


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## stringmusic (Nov 17, 2010)

pnome said:


> Ok then.. let's see here...
> 
> Origin?
> 
> ...



do you ever want to find answers to these questions that will satisfy your conscience? Or do you just plan on taking "best guesses" and finding out what Truth is later?


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## pnome (Nov 17, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> do you ever want to find answers to these questions that will satisfy your conscience? Or do you just plan on taking "best guesses" and finding out what Truth is later?



Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to know the answers to those questions.  But it's important to me that those answers be correct.  

How can we tell the correct answers from the false answers?


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## stringmusic (Nov 17, 2010)

pnome said:


> Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to know the answers to those questions.  But it's important to me that those answers be correct.
> 
> How can we tell the correct answers from the false answers?



How do you(specifically) arrive to any answers of any questions in life? You arrive at those answers just like everyone else, the coherency of those answers. Use that same method to answer these questions.


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## pnome (Nov 17, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> How do you(specifically) arrive to any answers of any questions in life? You arrive at those answers just like everyone else, the coherency of those answers. Use that same method to answer these questions.



I use science.  Or more broadly, rational inquiry.


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## stringmusic (Nov 17, 2010)

pnome said:


> I use science.  Or more broadly, rational inquiry.



oh my gosh, wish.. wash.. wish.. wash. Use Science or more broadly, rational inquiry to ANSWER THE QUESTIONS THEN! You tell me how you answer questions and then tell me you havent used this method to answer these four important questions about life?


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## pnome (Nov 17, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> oh my gosh, wish.. wash.. wish.. wash. Use Science or more broadly, rational inquiry to ANSWER THE QUESTIONS THEN! You tell me how you answer questions and then tell me you havent used this method to answer these four important questions about life?



I have answered them.  

The answer is "I don't know" at least for everything other than morality.  

Insufficient data with which to draw a conclusion.  It's as simple as that.  

How do you answer them?


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## Achilles Return (Nov 17, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> oh my gosh, wish.. wash.. wish.. wash. Use Science or more broadly, rational inquiry to ANSWER THE QUESTIONS THEN! You tell me how you answer questions and then tell me you havent used this method to answer these four important questions about life?



We did. And we got "unknown" as the answer. There's nothing wrong with this. It's the most rational response.


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## TTom (Nov 17, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> that fine if thats what you think, but you have to admit that most people on this earth would like to have this question anwered.



OK Answer Destiny There is no such thing as Destiny.






stringmusic said:


> there is only one God



As I said My God includes you God, but I don't limit my names or understanding or belief to the one name/ face/ form of God. All the names and forms of God are just that names and forms of God.





stringmusic said:


> I have not done much research on how God created the earth, I just know it was done, I dont find the how needed in my faith, just the what/who. Saying that,one thing I will say is they are poorly explained because they cannot be explained, God is not a formula or equation, He cannot be quantified. I know you didnt say that He was, it just looks like it could go there.



Convenient to be able to dodge the great questions of science without having to challenge the conflict they might have with you religious beliefs. I'm sure glad that men like Galileo and such had enough faith to question and test and challenge the status quo to put forth the idea that the Earth revolves around the Sun even when the great religious minds swore that Biblically the Earth was the center of the universe. 

Some of them (the great questions of science today) are poorly explained because we have not yet gained the understanding required yet. Others are understood and accepted just fine by all those who don't follow a flat earth mindframe and the ludicrous idea that the Earth is just over 6,000 years old. The Physical evidence cannot be explained away with the Devil put Dinosaur fossils there to trick us.

As to the idea of the equation, if you saw the potential to go there, then you lacked a good reading of the basic premise. Science attempts to explain HOW God did stuff, not What God is. 

Now my description of God could be and likely does fall into the hubris level of being a very limited explanation of a limitless being.




stringmusic said:


> if we have the same God, as you earlier stated, how do you discredit the Bible, and no, morality did not come from the Bible it came from God from the beginning. A moral law giver must be if there is a moral law.



You keep trying to fit the ideas together and you can't quite get there. My God includes BUT IS NOT LIMITED TO Your God. Which means the Bible is not a limiting factor for me in the least, I know that it is a HUGE limiting factor for you. The Bible like most books people consider divinely inspired is just that divinely inspired, I do not believe that it has remained untainted by human intervention. I know that conflicts with your theology, that can't be helped by me in any way. I dont discount the Bible I just refuse to worship it like some sacred relic. 




stringmusic said:


> I understand what your saying, but do you have an answer for meaning?



If you don't see the answer to meaning in there then I doubt I can help you to see it. That is my answer to Meaning. Life is ment to be LIVED, we are expected to take every moment of it and get as much out of it as we can. (note that is not financial or material or insert whatever thing) We are to get as much Love, and Peace and Inspiration, and Joy and compassion and connection and and and AND as we can so that we have as few regrets when it comes time to die as possible.

I doubt that breached your walls.


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## ambush80 (Nov 17, 2010)

TTom said:


> OK Answer Destiny There is no such thing as Destiny.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's the problem that I encounter.  Say for instance that God implanted a speck of intuition within each individual that hinted to his existence.  What do you make of anomalies like Jeffrey Dahmer?  Is it possible that God implanted a speck of intuition in him as well?   Is he doing the work of God?  Many of the worlds religions make a concession for behavior like his in the form of an evil side; the Yang to the Yin, Satan and so forth.  Indeed, a being such as God would be impossible to describe in such terms as good or evil, don't you think?






TTom said:


> You keep trying to fit the ideas together and you can't quite get there. My God includes BUT IS NOT LIMITED TO Your God. Which means the Bible is not a limiting factor for me in the least, I know that it is a HUGE limiting factor for you. The Bible like most books people consider divinely inspired is just that divinely inspired, I do not believe that it has remained untainted by human intervention. I know that conflicts with your theology, that can't be helped by me in any way. I dont discount the Bible I just refuse to worship it like some sacred relic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Again, this may be your personal reckoning of God's intentions.  If he is as inconceivable, as a God would be by definition, is it fair to limit his intentions to these terms?


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## TTom (Nov 17, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> That's the problem that I encounter.  Say for instance that God implanted a speck of intuition within each individual that hinted to his existence.  What do you make of anomalies like Jeffrey Dahmer?  Is it possible that God implanted a speck of intuition in him as well?   Is he doing the work of God?  Many of the worlds religions make a concession for behavior like his in the form of an evil side; the Yang to the Yin, Satan and so forth.  Indeed, a being such as God would be impossible to describe in such terms as good or evil, don't you think?




When it comes to the truly sick of humanity, those who show the highest potential of evil in man. You have posed a question that I have yet to gain an understanding of yet myself. 

Good and evil though are impossible to untie, one cannot exist without the other to provide the contrast. 






ambush80 said:


> Again, this may be your personal reckoning of God's intentions.  If he is as inconceivable, as a God would be by definition, is it fair to limit his intentions to these terms?



The limit is not in God but in my ability to explain and understand God. Gods intention is that we do the best we can with our limited understanding. For to expect more than that would be to expect the impossible.


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## stringmusic (Nov 17, 2010)

TTom said:


> OK Answer Destiny There is no such thing as Destiny.


ok, you believe we dont have a soul, understood. what brings you to this conclusion?








> As I said My God includes you God, but I don't limit my names or understanding or belief to the one name/ face/ form of God. All the names and forms of God are just that names and forms of God.



All I can say is there is absolute truth, one cant just make up his own God of choice and everyone understand truth.





> Convenient to be able to dodge the great questions of science without having to challenge the conflict they might have with you religious beliefs. I'm sure glad that men like Galileo and such had enough faith to question and test and challenge the status quo to put forth the idea that the Earth revolves around the Sun even when the great religious minds swore that Biblically the Earth was the center of the universe.


what did I dodge? I dont see where the Bible speaks of the earth being in the center of the universe, I also dont see where there are contradictions between the Bible and science,things that can actually be prove anyway, I know that there are theories that may not agree, but not things that are true.



> Some of them (the great questions of science today) are poorly explained because we have not yet gained the understanding required yet. Others are understood and accepted just fine by all those who don't follow a flat earth mindframe and the ludicrous idea that the Earth is just over 6,000 years old.


Gap theory



> The Physical evidence cannot be explained away with the Devil put Dinosaur fossils there to trick us.


obviously, The Bible nor anyone that I know says this.



> As to the idea of the equation, if you saw the potential to go there, then you lacked a good reading of the basic premise.


you give me a equation about some energy that God used and dont see how I thought it could go there?




> Science attempts to explain HOW God did stuff, not What God is.


I understand this, I dont think they word it, "How does God do things?" They try to figure out how God works without(most, not all)believing in God. How do you figure out how something works thats not real?






> You keep trying to fit the ideas together and you can't quite get there. My God includes BUT IS NOT LIMITED TO Your God.


again, wrong, I get it, you have made your own image of THE GOD that made you in His image. You cannot include my God in with your image of God it would contradict, my God says "I am", He is the only true God, you cannot include him inside of something else. My God is limitless, if He is included in your image of God, how can that image not limit itself to something that is limitless? 




> Which means the Bible is not a limiting factor for me in the least, I know that it is a HUGE limiting factor for you.


you cant have it both ways, like I said right above this, you cannot include the God of the Bible and keep going on to something more, if you accept God that the bible talks about, you cannot accept anything more.



> I dont discount the Bible I just refuse to worship it like some sacred relic.


I don't worhip the bible, I worship what it says. You discount at least some of it or you would say the same.  






> If you don't see the answer to meaning in there then I doubt I can help you to see it.


you didnt give an answer




> Life is ment to be LIVED, we are expected to take every moment of it and get as much out of it as we can.


says who?




> (note that is not financial or material or insert whatever thing)


why not?




> We are to get as much Love, and Peace and Inspiration, and Joy and compassion and connection and and and AND as we can so that we have as few regrets when it comes time to die as possible.


what is love?what is peace?what is inspiration?what is a regret, and how do I know if I have one? what is? what is? what is?
If you speak the truth, you have to answer these questions.



> I doubt that breached your walls.


we gonna start goin there?


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## stringmusic (Nov 17, 2010)

> What do you make of anomalies like Jeffrey Dahmer?


what is there to make, he killed people, he let himself into evil more than others.





> Is it possible that God implanted a speck of intuition in him as well?


absolutly




> Is he doing the work of God?


no




> Indeed, a being such as God would be impossible to describe in such terms as good or evil, don't you think?


yes, you cannot fully discribe God



I know Im anwsering questions you asked to someone else, hope I dont offend you. Glad to see you and Achilles back, havent seen yall in a couple of days.


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## ambush80 (Nov 17, 2010)

Good stuff.  I'll be back after dinner.


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## TTom (Nov 17, 2010)

OK you've just done it several times again and I find it completely disrespectfull and as such will refuse interaction further.

"ok, you believe we dont have a soul, understood. what brings you to this conclusion?"

Is you telling me what I believe based on things we have not discussed in the least. I said no such thing Destiny has no bearing on a soul as it fits the basic English language.

Destiny- a predetermined course in life. (nope no mention there of a soul or the lack of one.)

When you find the ability to respect me enough not to try to put words into my mouth we might resume. Until then you're done.


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## Thanatos (Nov 17, 2010)

pnome said:


> Answer this first:
> 
> Is it important to you that the answers to these questions be correct or will any old answer do?



Pnome this is the first time ive seen your new profile pic. Your not as ugly as I thought you'd be.


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## pnome (Nov 17, 2010)

Thanatos said:


> Pnome this is the first time ive seen your new profile pic. Your not as ugly as I thought you'd be.



Well...thanks.

You're just a big dead turkey to me.


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## stringmusic (Nov 18, 2010)

TTom said:


> OK you've just done it several times again and I find it completely disrespectfull and as such will refuse interaction further.
> 
> "ok, you believe we dont have a soul, understood. what brings you to this conclusion?"
> 
> ...





> I doubt that breached your walls.



we gonna start goin there? 

forget to answer this question?
All this after a comment like that? That fine, I dont want to get into a third grade argument here,I'm sorry if I upset you. I have to assume things when you type, other wise we wouldnt be having diologe. I think we are on different pages on which definition we're using,
Definition of DESTINY
1: something to which a person or thing(soul) is destined. 
basically, where are you going to be when you stop breathing, and why are you going to be there? I think you will find in this definition that destiny does have a bearing on a soul.


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## stringmusic (Nov 18, 2010)

pnome said:


> Well...thanks.
> 
> You're just a big dead turkey to me.



kinda Lee Lekosky might I say.


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## gtparts (Nov 18, 2010)

pnome said:


> I use science.  Or more broadly, rational inquiry.





Achilles Return said:


> We did. And we got "unknown" as the answer. There's nothing wrong with this. It's the most rational response.



For your consideration: Suppose the truth is not found in human rationality. Suppose the truth is found in what you would consider human irrationality. Suppose that there is a deity whose consciousness operates in both realms; both the rational and irrational. A sovereign and omnipotent deity would certainly "trump" the thought processes of human cognitive reason.

You have excluded the realm of irrational thought as a repository for the truth. Yes, lots of stuff doesn't make sense because we lack knowledge; both in the Bible and in science books. The reality of science books is that they focus on the known and make little or nothing of the fact that much is speculation or simply is yet to be revealed. Suppose the true answer to the posed questions are only found in the supernatural.

"I don't know" and "unknown" are not very satisfactory "answers" and science is no closer to the "answer" than it was when man made his first conclusion from observation. Perhaps the "answer" is in what we can't measure or grasp with the rational mind.


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## stringmusic (Nov 19, 2010)

pnome said:


> I have answered them.
> 
> The answer is "I don't know" at least for everything other than morality.
> 
> ...



Origin- We were created by God in his image.

Meaning- To have a relationship with our creator and to serve and worship him.

Destiny- People that Choose Christ, live in his presence for eternity
-For the people that do not choose Christ, live without his presence for eternity.

Morality- Having perfection(God) to compare right and wrong.


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## davidstaples (Nov 19, 2010)

Origin?

I wasn't there in the beginning.  Neither were you.  Nor was anyone who had the ability to write about it.

Destiny?

Everyone is born.  Everyone will die.  What happens in between is influenced by the decisions you make.  What happens after you die?  I don't know and neither do you.  Some people think they know, but knowing and thinking are two different things.

Morality?

Morality has been around since before Christianity.  One example of many - the Code of Hammurabi.

Meaning?

You are what you make of yourself.


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## stringmusic (Nov 19, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> Origin?
> 
> I wasn't there in the beginning.  Neither were you.  Nor was anyone who had the ability to write about it.


prophets



> Destiny?
> 
> Everyone is born.  Everyone will die.  What happens in between is influenced by the decisions you make.  What happens after you die?  I don't know and neither do you.  Some people think they know, but knowing and thinking are two different things.


faith, I don't KNOW but I have faith in what I believe



> Morality?
> 
> Morality has been around since before Christianity.  One example of many - the Code of Hammurabi.


this is true, morality doesnt come from Christianity, it comes from God. I dont know anything about the code of the Hammurabi but they had to have had a point of reference for right and wrong. If you have wrong you have right, if you have right and wrong you have a moral law, if you have a moral law you have a moral law giver.



> Meaning?
> 
> You are what you make of yourself.


what is the meaning behing making yourself something? Can you make yourself anything? What is the motive behind what a person wants to make themselves?


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## davidstaples (Nov 19, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> prophets



There was a psychic convention in Sudbury, Ontario when I was there in May.  They couldn't even tell me what my name was.



> faith, I don't KNOW but I have faith in what I believe



Errm, I would hope so.  Having faith in something you don't believe doesn't seem very logical.




> this is true, morality doesnt come from Christianity, it comes from God. I dont know anything about the code of the Hammurabi but they had to have had a point of reference for right and wrong. If you have wrong you have right, if you have right and wrong you have a moral law, if you have a moral law you have a moral law giver.



Prove that it comes from God and not The Flying Spaghetti Monster.




> what is the meaning behing making yourself something? Can you make yourself anything? What is the motive behind what a person wants to make themselves?



I'm sorry but this reads a bit similar to gibberish.  I'm afraid you've been reading too many of a certain (nameless) member's posts here so I'll do my best to interpret.  I can become just about anything I want if I try hard enough.  Sure, there's certain physical limitations.  I can't become a dog, though I can dress up like one.  But I can become a pilot, a sanitation engineer, drive thru order taker, lawyer, chemist or any other profession if I put my mind to it.  Some professions are harder than others to achieve.  What is the motive behind what an individual wants to make of themselves?  Typically it's life experiences that influence what a person wants to do with their lives and usually money is a motivator.  How many of the waffle house waitresses do you think are there because they like serving food?


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## ambush80 (Nov 19, 2010)

gtparts said:


> For your consideration: Suppose the truth is not found in human rationality. Suppose the truth is found in what you would consider human irrationality. Suppose that there is a deity whose consciousness operates in both realms; both the rational and irrational. A sovereign and omnipotent deity would certainly "trump" the thought processes of human cognitive reason.
> 
> You have excluded the realm of irrational thought as a repository for the truth. Yes, lots of stuff doesn't make sense because we lack knowledge; both in the Bible and in science books. The reality of science books is that they focus on the known and make little or nothing of the fact that much is speculation or simply is yet to be revealed. Suppose the true answer to the posed questions are only found in the supernatural.
> 
> "I don't know" and "unknown" are not very satisfactory "answers" and science is no closer to the "answer" than it was when man made his first conclusion from observation. Perhaps the "answer" is in what we can't measure or grasp with the rational mind.



I am completely down with this notion.  There are things that reason cannot explain;  very, very few things.  I completely agree that if all the fantastic events that have been described by the various religious texts actually happened then it would be difficult to explain them rationally.  In those cases, "magic" would indeed have to be a possible explanation.

I'll save "magic" as an absolute last resort explanation for most everything else.


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## stringmusic (Nov 19, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> There was a psychic convention in Sudbury, Ontario when I was there in May.  They couldn't even tell me what my name was.


a psychic and prophet are two different things









> Prove that it comes from God and not The Flying Spaghetti Monster.


I have explained this before, If I describe everything about a computer and call it a jiggitybox, its still a computer. Same thing in this case.
Your describing God and calling it the flying spaghetti monster.






> I'm sorry but this reads a bit similar to gibberish.  I'm afraid you've been reading too many of a certain (nameless)member's posts here


I have no clue what/who your talking about




> I can become just about anything I want if I try hard enough.  Sure, there's certain physical limitations.  I can't become a dog, though I can dress up like one.  But I can become a pilot, a sanitation engineer, drive thru order taker, lawyer, chemist or any other profession if I put my mind to it.  Some professions are harder than others to achieve.  What is the motive behind what an individual wants to make of themselves?  Typically it's life experiences that influence what a person wants to do with their lives and usually money is a motivator.



I not talking about a job. Personality,who you are at the core, what makes a person choose to be mean,cruel,nice,funny anything else you can think of. Why do you want anything? what makes you want? If you go back to the life experiences, why are you even here in the first place to be motivated? All four of the answers to the questions must be coherent.


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## stringmusic (Nov 19, 2010)

> Typically it's life experiences that influence what a person wants to do with their lives and usually money is a motivator.






> How many of the waffle house waitresses do you think are there because they like serving food?



according to you there life experiences made them WANT to become a waffle house waitress.
So at some point in there lives they served somebody some food and thought, wow this is all me right here?


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## mickbear (Nov 22, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> Prove that it comes from God and not The Flying Spaghetti Monster.


thats funny as he  ya gotta love it


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## stringmusic (Nov 22, 2010)

299 views, 32 replies and 3, uh well, 1 attempted answer.... interesting


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## ted_BSR (Nov 22, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> I believe these are the four questions that must be answered in life, EVERYONE wants to have a coherent set of answers for these questions.
> 
> For the guys with no belief in anything AND the guys with a belief system different from Christianity, how do you come to a COHERENT set of answers to lifes most important questions?



String - you gotta ask these guys 1 question at a time.


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## Achilles Return (Nov 22, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> 299 views, 32 replies and 3, uh well, 1 attempted answer.... interesting



Just because you don't _like_ the answer doesn't make it invalid.


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## stringmusic (Nov 23, 2010)

ted_BSR said:


> String - you gotta ask these guys 1 question at a time.


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## stringmusic (Nov 23, 2010)

Achilles Return said:


> Just because you don't _like_ the answer doesn't make it invalid.



Do you feel comfortable with your answer to life's most important questions to be "huh, well, I dont know, I'll figure it out later"or"I dont care"or"those questions cant be answered"
The bottom line is that an atheist cannot answer these questions, you have no meaning, you can't explain origin,you have a very poor explaination of morals(animals,really?),and you have ZERO hope for your destination because you believe you have no destination. It just seems like a miserable life to live.

I would also assume you generally accept the most coherent answers to other questions in life, why do you refuse to accept the most coherent answers about life?


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## davidstaples (Nov 23, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> Do you feel comfortable with your answer to life's most important questions to be "huh, well, I dont know, I'll figure it out later"or"I dont care"or"those questions cant be answered"
> The bottom line is that an atheist cannot answer these questions, you have no meaning, you can't explain origin,you have a very poor explaination of morals(animals,really?),and you have ZERO hope for your destination because you believe you have no destination. It just seems like a miserable life to live.



Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean it's an invalid answer.  The definition of an agnostic is "I don't know and you don't know either."  You believe you know the origin of our existence... but you don't 100% know for sure.  It's certainly not miserable living live to it's fullest and not wasting time trying to fit into a mold that a book tells me I have to live by.



> I would also assume you generally accept the most coherent answers to other questions in life, why do you refuse to accept the most coherent answers about life?



The most coherent answers to you might not be logical answers to someone else.  Just because you might believe you can grow wings and fly doesn't mean I find that logical and support your belief.


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## stringmusic (Nov 23, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean it's an invalid answer.


I have already responded to this



> The definition of an agnostic is "I don't know and you don't know either.


so what are your plans on finding a coherent answer to what happens when you die? Are you not worried about it because you cant know 100%?




> "  You believe you know the origin of our existence... but you don't 100% know for sure.


true




> It's certainly not miserable living live to it's fullest


the only problem with "living life to it fullest" is that you dont even know what that means, you have no reason for it other than one that you make up in your own head. Why do you "live life to the fullest" if it means nothing in the end? if it means nothing from the beginning? it has no moral basis other than the one you give it.











> Just because you might believe you can grow wings and fly doesn't mean I find that logical and support your belief.


me believing that I can grow wings is not a coherent belief.

Definitions of coherent (adj)
co·her·ent [ kÅ� hïŸ¼rÉ™nt ]   
logically or aesthetically consistent: logically or aesthetically consistent and holding together as a harmonious or credible whole
speaking logically: able to speak clearly and logically


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## stringmusic (Nov 23, 2010)

Achilles Return said:


> Just because you don't _like_ the answer doesn't make it invalid.



oh, and I never brought up the word invalid.
Do you give my answers this same respect?


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## davidstaples (Nov 23, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> me believing that I can grow wings is not a coherent belief.
> 
> Definitions of coherent (adj)
> co·her·ent [ kÅ� hïŸ¼rÉ™nt ]
> ...



But believing in a god who sent his son to Earth to die for the sins of all through a virgin birth, having him crucified on a cross and then rising from the dead 3 days later followed by ascending into heaven is a coherent belief.  Okay.  



> so what are your plans on finding a coherent answer to what happens when you die? Are you not worried about it because you cant know 100%?



I already have my coherent answer.  I don't know and neither do you.  I will find out what happens when I die... when I die.  Same as you.  I don't worry about that anymore than I worry about what will happen on my way home from work this afternoon.



> the only problem with "living life to it fullest" is that you dont even know what that means, you have no reason for it other than one that you make up in your own head. Why do you "live life to the fullest" if it means nothing in the end? if it means nothing from the beginning? it has no moral basis other than the one you give it.



Who are you to tell me that I don't know what that means?  Of course I have no reason for it other than what I make up in my own head... any more than you have any reason for it other than what you make up in your own head.

Why do I live life to the fullest?  Because I don't believe in reincarnation.  You only have one shot, so you might as well make the best of it.  Your definition of "means nothing" and mine are obviously different.


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## davidstaples (Nov 23, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> oh, and I never brought up the word invalid.
> Do you give my answers this same respect?



While you may not have technically used the actual word "invalid"... treating answers such as mine as if they aren't logical or truly answering your question just because you disagree with them is the same principle.  Call it whatever you like.


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## TTom (Nov 23, 2010)

You'll find alot of that david, there are people who LOVE to tell people what they believe. even when it conflicts with what that person has already stated as their belief.


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## ambush80 (Nov 23, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> so what are your plans on finding a coherent answer to what happens when you die? Are you not worried about it because you cant know 100%?



If I may participate in your conversation,  my plans are to use all the faculties and information at my disposal to get a sense of "what it all means".  In terms of what happens when I die, I truly don't believe it's possible to know.  My intuition, along with what I've observed, tells me that we get broken down into our basic parts and re-used.  If the soul exists, I see no reason why it wouldn't do the same.  It seems to me that like many of the other notions that religions have come up with to deal with the unknown, the concept of the afterlife is based on the traditional superstitions and ignorance of ancient spiritualists. 






stringmusic said:


> the only problem with "living life to it fullest" is that you dont even know what that means, you have no reason for it other than one that you make up in your own head. Why do you "live life to the fullest" if it means nothing in the end? if it means nothing from the beginning? it has no moral basis other than the one you give it.



As do you and everyone else, evidenced by the fact that even people of the same religion using the same text can't always agree on what the truth is.  What you end up doing is arguing about who's discernment is better or who's fruit is riper or who is following the guide the best. Ultimately, it's your word against theirs.  Same with you and me.  All that you accomplish by adopting a spiritual guide as opposed to figuring out things for yourself is that you limit possibilities for you to be truly happy and actualized.


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## stringmusic (Nov 23, 2010)

TTom said:


> You'll find alot of that david, there are people who LOVE to tell people what they believe. even when it conflicts with what that person has already stated as their belief.



Ooooooh your back...awww, but its just to give a pointless comment, read again ttom, he never accused me of that.

I have already apologized to you, and explained that two people having a conversation, knowing a little background on the other persons belief, must assume things in there converstions.
 If you want to continue in
this conversation that would be great


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## stringmusic (Nov 23, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> While you may not have technically used the actual word "invalid"... treating answers such as mine as if they aren't logical or truly answering your question just because you disagree with them is the same principle.  Call it whatever you like.



I called it interesting. I never stated that your answers were'nt logical, I am simply trying to understand why and how you guys make up your own answers to these questions and consider them coherent with humanity.

And you forgot to answer the other question that I asked.


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## TTom (Nov 23, 2010)

LOL pointless, LOL you told him what he believed, just as you tried to lie about what I believed, and then fell back spinning how in your world destiny means a soul's destiny. Of course that was never mentioned ahead of time, I was in your opinion supposed to mind read when you wanted to shift from the standard English definition of Destiny, to your religious one.

So tell me how with a sense of coherency you jump from my statement in my first response of:

"Empathy, of the image of god in me for the image of god in you and in every man woman and child regardless of religion."

 to your :

"ok, you believe we dont have a soul, understood. what brings you to this conclusion?"

without an intent to lie about and distort my beliefs?
You Sir are purposefully deceptive in your conversations. 

There is an assumption that you will read and retain information, this quoted statement is in my first reply. long before your lie about what my beliefs are.

It's just easier for you to bear false witness about other people's beliefs than it is to discuss in good faith I guess.
There is not an assumption that I will read your mind and know when your definition of Destiny is going off the reservation and leaving the standard English definition.


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## stringmusic (Nov 23, 2010)

TTom said:


> LOL pointless, LOL you told him what he believed, just as you tried to lie about what I believed, and then fell back spinning how in your world destiny means a soul's destiny. Of course that was never mentioned ahead of time, I was in your opinion supposed to mind read when you wanted to shift from the standard English definition of Destiny, to your religious one.



And I was supposed to read everyone mind to think they were going to use a definition different from mine?
And by the way there are two standard definitons to destiny, I copy and pasted mine from websters dictionary, its not a "religious" definition, its a standard english definition.

So tell me how with a sense of coherency you jump from my statement in my first response of:



> "Empathy, of the image of god in me for the image of god in you and in every man woman and child regardless of religion."
> 
> to your :
> 
> "ok, you believe we dont have a soul, understood. what brings you to this conclusion?"



this was not my response to your quote, we were obviously on different pages on which definiton we were using, I explained this in my apology



> without an intent to lie about and distort my beliefs?
> You Sir are purposefully deceptive in your conversations.


I am certianly not trying to be, you can believe whatever you choose, I ask alot of questions of you guys to gain an understanding of where you come to the conclusions that you have. 



> There is an assumption that you will read and retain information, this quoted statement is in my first reply. long before your lie about what my beliefs are.


again, I'm sorry, this has happened one time, in this thread only, dont hang me over it. AGAIN if we were using the same definition, it would have not been a lie.

after all that, would you like to resume the conversation?


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## stringmusic (Nov 23, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> But believing in a god who sent his son to Earth to die for the sins of all through a virgin birth, having him crucified on a cross and then rising from the dead 3 days later followed by ascending into heaven is a coherent belief.  Okay.


first you must come to a coherent belief in God, then I believe the some incoherent things will come into play because you are dealing with the supreme God who can do things outside of the coherency of a human.
read Gt's post in here





> I already have my coherent answer.  I don't know and neither do you.  I will find out what happens when I die... when I die.


what if your wrong when you die? Do you have any HOPE of life after death?



> I don't worry about that anymore than I worry about what will happen on my way home from work this afternoon.


Do you HOPE that you arrive home from work this afternoon? Do you have FAITH that you will arrive home this afternoon?





> Who are you to tell me that I don't know what that means?


Im sorry for saying that, I just see no reason for living life in any way if not for God, there is no purpose,meaning or anything else.



> Why do I live life to the fullest?  Because I don't believe in reincarnation.  You only have one shot, so you might as well make the best of it.  Your definition of "means nothing" and mine are obviously different.



What is the purpose of you being here to be able to live life to the fullest? what is the fullest?
How do you know that you only have one shot? If you only have one shot, what does it matter if you screw it up? why do morals matter?


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## davidstaples (Nov 23, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> what if your wrong when you die? Do you have any HOPE of life after death?



I'm not wrong.  I'm agnostic.  I'm not saying that I'm 100% certain your God doesn't exist.  I'm saying that I don't know if there's truly a higher being that exists or not and neither do you.



> Do you HOPE that you arrive home from work this afternoon? Do you have FAITH that you will arrive home this afternoon?



Yes and yes.  I can see my truck sitting outside at this very moment.  It got me here this morning and it took me to lunch.  There's plenty of diesel in it.  Past performance is proof enough to me that I will probably make it home this afternoon.  Your god is not visible.  I don't see him sitting beside my truck or in the chairs across from my desk or anywhere else.  



> Im sorry for saying that, I just see no reason for living life in any way if not for God, there is no purpose,meaning or anything else.



If you truly cannot find meaning in life without the aid of an unproven mystical being then I truly feel sorry for you.



> What is the purpose of you being here to be able to live life to the fullest? what is the fullest?
> How do you know that you only have one shot? If you only have one shot, what does it matter if you screw it up? why do morals matter?



The purpose of living life to the fullest is to enjoy life and to ensure that I leave behind a better world for my offspring.  What is the fullest?  Having fun and being successful.  I don't *know* that I only have one shot.  (That's why we call ourselves agnostics.  We don't pretend to know the truth.  We readily admit that we don't know what the truth is.)  Why does it matter if I screw up my one shot at life?  Because that means I haven't met the goal of being successful and leaving behind a better world for those I leave behind.  It's not out of selfishness - it's out of selflessness.

Why do morals matter?  You're assuming I don't have morals.  But my morals are most likely different than your morals.  I tend to go more by the old saying "the right to swing your fist ends at the other person's nose".  So long as you abide by that one saying most everything else falls in line.  Does my having a glass of wine or a shot of whiskey affect someone else?  No.  Does someone else's preference of smoking marijuana affect me?  No.  Does theft have a victim?  Yes.  Therefore, theivery is wrong but drinking and smoking marijuana not so much.  You live by the Bible; I live by common sense.


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## stringmusic (Nov 23, 2010)

> My intuition, along with what I've observed, tells me that we get broken down into our basic parts and re-used.  If the soul exists, I see no reason why it wouldn't do the same.


Who/what brakes those basic parts down and why do they get broken down? Where did those basic parts come from? Do you know what they are made up of?
Lets say for a second that you believe we have a soul, why do you think that it would do the same as our physical body?


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## TTom (Nov 23, 2010)

That time it read more like an apology, and I can work with it from there.

My point was you had read and commented on my post about the origin aspect that included that quotation from my position. So you knew or should have known based on the facts previously presented that I did not in fact hold the opinion that we have no soul.

Your decalrative statement rather than a question seeking clarification was likely a good 70% of the reason I took offense.

You can't tell me what I believe, anymore than I can tell you what you believe, not with any hope of being accurate. we cna ask what the other means we can ask for clarification but the moment we start telling the other person what they believe we are speaking from a dangerously misinformed/ underinformed position.

There is a huge difference between asking "So without Destiny how do you handle the eventual disposition that a soul?" and telling someone "So you don't believe in a soul."

Destiny has a portion of the definition that deals with predetermined, set, unchangeable. I simply don't believe that Destiny exists in that sense of the term. You make choices doors open other doors close and you make another choice. Destiny removes the chance of Hope, because if it is all predetermined then their is no need for Hope.


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## stringmusic (Nov 23, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> I'm not wrong.  I'm agnostic.  I'm not saying that I'm 100% certain your God doesn't exist.  I'm saying that I don't know if there's truly a higher being that exists or not and neither do you.


Ok, what if its to late to be with God after you have died?





> Yes and yes.  I can see my truck sitting outside at this very moment.  It got me here this morning and it took me to lunch.  There's plenty of diesel in it.  Past performance is proof enough to me that I will probably make it home this afternoon.  Your god is not visible.  I don't see him sitting beside my truck or in the chairs across from my desk or anywhere else.


Do you only believe in things you can see?  





> If you truly cannot find meaning in life without the aid of an unproven mystical being then I truly feel sorry for you.


If, in the end, you conscience ends, what is the point of anything that you did while you were here, It wouldnt/couldnt mean anything to you.





> The purpose of living life to the fullest is to enjoy life and to ensure that I leave behind a better world for my offspring.


what about somebody who does not have any offspring?



> Why does it matter if I screw up my one shot at life?  Because that means I haven't met the goal of being successful and leaving behind a better world for those I leave behind.


who/what sets that goal? What exactly are you striving for in a "better" world? 





> Why do morals matter?  You're assuming I don't have morals.


where do you get this idea? I just asked a question



> Does my having a glass of wine or a shot of whiskey affect someone else?No.


How many shots can you take before it is immoral? Cause enough of them can have an affect on someone else.




> Does theft have a victim?  Yes.  Therefore, theivery is wrong but drinking and smoking marijuana not so much.



If I drink and it distorts my mind, then I kill someone because of the alchohol, then come to your house and steal all your bills and pay them for you, who is the victim?

What if you had cancer and I stole it from you?


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## stringmusic (Nov 23, 2010)

> Destiny removes the chance of Hope, because if it is all predetermined then their is no need for Hope.



agreed


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## davidstaples (Nov 23, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> Ok, what if its to late to be with God after you have died?



In that case I guess I'm screwed.  That's basically the "what if you're wrong" question re-worded.  So what if you're wrong?  What if you wasted all that time believing in something that wasn't real?



> Do you only believe in things you can see?



I only believe in things that have been proven to exist.  I can't see the wind, but it's been proven to exist.  I believe in things I can use one of my 5 senses to detect.



> If, in the end, you conscience ends, what is the point of anything that you did while you were here, It wouldnt/couldnt mean anything to you.



Same question right back at you.  What is the point of anything that you did while you were here if you're going to heaven in the end?  Anything you did here wouldn't / couldn't mean anything to you.



> what about somebody who does not have any offspring?



They can still try to leave the world a better place... either for their brothers / sisters / cousins or other relatives or charities.



> who/what sets that goal? What exactly are you striving for in a "better" world?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ambush80 (Nov 23, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> Who/what brakes those basic parts down and why do they get broken down?



I don't see the need for there to be a "Who", but we can re-hash Intelligent Design and Irreducible Complexity again in another thread if you want.  It's been a while since we beat that one to death.  

I've observed that when things expire, they get broken down by natural forces.  Again, no "Helmsman" required.



stringmusic said:


> Where did those basic parts come from? Do you know what they are made up of?



I don't know where they come from.  Latest theory points to they are made of energy.



stringmusic said:


> Lets say for a second that you believe we have a soul, why do you think that it would do the same as our physical body?



I have seen no evidence to indicate that  souls exists but just for fun lets assume they do.  What are they like?  What is their nature?  Are they affected by atmospheric pressure?  Your guess would be as good as mine, despite   your claim that you have a manual (of dubious origin and content) that briefly and vaguely mentions the soul.


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## ambush80 (Nov 23, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> In that case I guess I'm screwed.  That's basically the "what if you're wrong" question re-worded.  So what if you're wrong?  What if you wasted all that time believing in something that wasn't real?



Why do we do this over and over again?

Furthermore, what if the Muslims, Buddhists, Wiccans etc, etc, etc. are right?

We use the information that we have the best we way we can and try to keep our ship off the reefs and our powder dry.  

String,  I find your main source of information about the nature of reality to be suspect.  If confronted with a Great Fish, I will NEVER consider the possibility that I might be able to live in it for 3 days.  That's all.


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## stringmusic (Nov 23, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> In that case I guess I'm screwed.  That's basically the "what if you're wrong" question re-worded.  So what if you're wrong?  What if you wasted all that time believing in something that wasn't real?


then I just wasted time, in the end, nothing will happen to me.








> Same question right back at you.  What is the point of anything that you did while you were here if you're going to heaven in the end?  Anything you did here wouldn't / couldn't mean anything to you.


first off, you didnt answer the question
My answer is to get you into Heaven with me, thats the point of me being here.





> They can still try to leave the world a better place... either for their brothers / sisters / cousins or other relatives or charities.


better to me is everyone suffering and in constant agony and pain. Is it ok for me to leave the world a "better" place?



> who/what sets that goal? What exactly are you striving for in a "better" world?


you didnt answer this question






> where do you get this idea? I just asked a question


you didnt tell me where you got the idea that I said you didnt have morals.






> Care to explain?  How can taking too many shots have an affect on someone else?


the actuall taking of the shots does not have a direct affect on a person, the affects those shots have on the mind and body can affect others though.



The victim is the person you killed. 





> Killing is wrong


Is killing wrong because another persons life is sacred? If so, what makes it sacred?



> And you're welcome to come over and pay my bills any time.  I don't think you'd really want to do that, though you're welcome to if you'd like.


I was making a point





> What if pigs could fly?  What if cows had six heads?  What if men could get pregnant?  How many other silly questions can you come up with?


alot!!
The reason I ask so many questions is, at the core of most everything is God, from the beginning to the end, Im just trying to get to the core of your thinking to find out where you didnt come up with God.


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## ambush80 (Nov 23, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> alot!!
> The reason I ask so many questions is, at the core of most everything is God, from the beginning to the end, Im just trying to get to the core of your thinking to find out where you didnt come up with God.



I can't answer for David but, most people who reject the notion of God do so because of lack of evidence.  None of the evidence that you may present for proof of God's existence would hold up in a court of law or in a High School debate team scrimmage.


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## pnome (Nov 23, 2010)

Ran across a great quote today that made me think of this thread.

"I may submit to the unknown, but never to the unknowable." - Roger Zelazny in his book "Lord of Light"


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## ambush80 (Nov 23, 2010)

pnome said:


> Ran across a great quote today that made me think of this thread.
> 
> "I may submit to the unknown, but never to the unknowable." - Roger Zelazny in his book "Lord of Light"



Perhaps I'm interpreting it wrong but, to me, it sounds like he's saying: to things that are truly unknowable, he submits--or "yields authority to".


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## ambush80 (Nov 23, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> then I just wasted time, in the end, nothing will happen to me.



What if angry and vengeful Allah gets hold of you?


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## stringmusic (Nov 24, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> What if angry and vengeful Allah gets hold of you?



I have my reasons for what I believe, I have pondered about other religions, but after some research concluded that Christ was the only way.
Just one example is, to be a true Islamic, you must first be able to read Arabic perfectly, if you read something and It doesnt make sense, they will tell you its because you cant read perfect Arabic. So how can Mohammed be the profit to the world when their text is tied down to only one language?
that is just one example, I dont really want to get into a discussion about this in this thread, I havent heard your answers to the question though.


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## stringmusic (Nov 24, 2010)

pnome said:


> Ran across a great quote today that made me think of this thread.
> 
> "I may submit to the unknown, but never to the unknowable." - Roger Zelazny in his book "Lord of Light"



when someone submits to the unknown, how do they know if its the unknowable or not?


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## TTom (Nov 24, 2010)

Considering the number of hermanutics debates one sees in the Christian Religion, I'm not sure the Arabic Only policy is such a bad thing. (leaving aside the rightness or wrongness of Islam in general)

Wouldn't it make for a much clearer understanding of the Bible if you read Hebrew and Greek and Aramaic and could read the texts in the original language they were written so that you never had to rely on the accuracy of a translation?


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## stringmusic (Nov 24, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> Perhaps I'm interpreting it wrong but, to me, it sounds like he's saying: to things that are truly unknowable, he submits--or "yields authority to".



ambush, he saying he will never submit to the unknowable, just the unknown.


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## davidstaples (Nov 24, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> So how can Mohammed be the profit to the world when their text is tied down to only one language?
> that is just one example, I dont really want to get into a discussion about this in this thread, I havent heard your answers to the question though.



Just because you ask a thousand questions doesn't mean we're going to take the time to answer every single one of them.  Some of them are just silly and aren't really worthy of an answer.  Some of us have other things to do and just pick the quickest ones to answer.

As for the language thingy, have you ever considered that with all these different versions of the Bible that there's a possibility that it could have been translated incorrectly?

Furthermore, you do realize that there are translations of the Qu'ran in English, correct?

http://www.quranexplorer.com/quran/


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## pnome (Nov 24, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> Perhaps I'm interpreting it wrong but, to me, it sounds like he's saying: to things that are truly unknowable, he submits--or "yields authority to".



I get that he means that something that is unknown, but yet knowable, he might submit to.  But he won't submit to something that is unknowable.

Here is the full quote.

"The four points of the compass be logic, knowledge, wisdom and the unknown. Some do bow in that final direction. Others advance upon it. To bow before the one is to lose sight of the three. I may submit to the unknown, but never to the unknowable."


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## stringmusic (Nov 24, 2010)

TTom said:


> Considering the number of hermanutics debates one sees in the Christian Religion, I'm not sure the Arabic Only policy is such a bad thing. (leaving aside the rightness or wrongness of Islam in general)
> 
> Wouldn't it make for a much clearer understanding of the Bible if you read Hebrew and Greek and Aramaic and could read the texts in the original language they were written so that you never had to rely on the accuracy of a translation?



that would be great to be able to read in those languages, however it is not pertinent to be able to be forgiven, and have a relationship with Christ. Also what translation your reading does not change the fundamental nature of Christ or what he did. What I am saying is, that to claim that Mohammed was the prophet to the world, and then restrict the world to one language, is not much of a prophet at all. IMO what if I cant learn the language?


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## stringmusic (Nov 24, 2010)

pnome said:


> I get that he means that something that is unknown, but yet knowable, he might submit to.  But he won't submit to something that is unknowable.
> 
> Here is the full quote.
> 
> "The four points of the compass be logic, knowledge, wisdom and the unknown. Some do bow in that final direction. Others advance upon it. To bow before the one is to lose sight of the three. I may submit to the unknown, but never to the unknowable."



So is he saying if he cant fully know God he will not believe in Him? Because God cannot be fully known, if that were the case, one could be/become God.


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## stringmusic (Nov 24, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> Just because you ask a thousand questions doesn't mean we're going to take the time to answer every single one of them.  Some of them are just silly and aren't really worthy of an answer.  Some of us have other things to do and just pick the quickest ones to answer.


or the ones that your answers sound the best too?




> As for the language thingy, have you ever considered that with all these different versions of the Bible that there's a possibility that it could have been translated incorrectly?


I just posted on this issue, the fundamental things of Christ and what he did will not change.



> Furthermore, you do realize that there are translations of the Qu'ran in English, correct?


whaaaattt????? really????? Now I can become Islamic like I always wanted to, yeah!!!

Oh, no I cant, I cant speak or read Arabic.


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## pnome (Nov 24, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> So is he saying if he cant fully know God he will not believe in Him? Because God cannot be fully known, if that were the case, one could be/become God.



I don't think the word "fully" applies.  God is unknowable in any amount.  

With this in mind I'd like to re-answer your questions:

Origin?

Unknown

Destiny?

Unknowable

Morality?

(see previous response)

Meaning?

Unknowable



Think of "unknowable" as "untestable"  and "unknown" as something that could be tested, but which we haven't tested yet.


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## stringmusic (Nov 24, 2010)

pnome said:


> I don't think the word "fully" applies.  God is unknowable in any amount.
> 
> With this in mind I'd like to re-answer your questions:
> 
> ...



saying "meaning is unknowable" is an absolute. You would have to know everything to make that statement.


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## pnome (Nov 24, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> saying "meaning is unknowable" is an absolute. You would have to know everything to make that statement.



No.  I'm saying that it is untestable.

Your answer to the meaning question:


> To have a relationship with our creator and to serve and worship him.



How can that be tested?  Maybe I'm just making an argument from personal incredulity here, but I can't come up with a way to test that.

Further, your answer really only raises more questions.  Why would an omnipotent being need worshipers?  What service could I, a puny mortal, possible render to such a being?  Etc....


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## stringmusic (Nov 24, 2010)

pnome said:


> No.  I'm saying that it is untestable.
> 
> Your answer to the meaning question:
> 
> ...


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## pnome (Nov 24, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> How do you test the origin of the world?



Well, first you start with a hypothesis right?

Example:  The Earth was formed by the gradual collection of materials from the solar nebula drawn together by gravity.

There is no way to directly test this, that's true, but we can use models to test the constituent parts.  Even then, we only end up with a theory.

Test: Do materials in zero-g tend to clump together due to their gravitational pull?  Yes, they do.  From this data, and the results of other tests and observations, we can extrapolate a model of the Earth's formation.





> not need... want
> God doesnt need anything. God wants a relationship with you and me.



Ok, why would God "want" people to worship him?  What benefit does he get out of it?


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## TTom (Nov 24, 2010)

pnome,  (I always have to go back and take the G out of your name. LOL)

There have been other faith perspectives that speak about how the number of worshipers and fervor of worship, are part of what gives Gods their power. I always found that an interesting concept to consider.

Well there are some basic tests that can be done that give us some ideas of how the origin may have occured, and it pretty much eliminates the potential for some other stories being true, and it makes it impossible to hold a literal interpretation of other origin stories.

Beyond that it's all speculation supported to various degrees by various forms and levels of faith.


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## TTom (Nov 24, 2010)

Example of faith even beyond the bible.

If we assume that all the species of animals were all sent to Noah for the ark. There is no story about how the animals that were sent to Noah returned to their homes. Or how they managed in some cases journeys of 4,000 miles each way. 

How does a land species like a tortoise, travel from Mt Ararat to the Galapogoes Islands across 5,6,7 thousand miles of ocean?

The Bible is silent on this because well Noah didn't know that North and South America existed let alone the Galapagous Islands.


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## stringmusic (Nov 24, 2010)

pnome said:


> Well, first you start with a hypothesis right?
> 
> Example:  The Earth was formed by the gradual collection of materials from the solar nebula drawn together by gravity.
> 
> ...



He wants a relationship with you for your benefit not his.
God does not benefit from anything.


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## pnome (Nov 24, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> He wants a relationship with you for your benefit not his.
> God does not benefit from anything.



For my benefit?  What benefit is that?  

You seem to be suggesting here that God created us with some sort of deficiency so that he could have someone to help.  That just doesn't make any sense.


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## stringmusic (Nov 24, 2010)

pnome said:


> For my benefit?  What benefit is that?


I'll give you one... Heaven 



> You seem to be suggesting here that God created us with some sort of deficiency so that he could have someone to help.  That just doesn't make any sense.



I'm not suggesting that at all, God created us and gave us a free will.
I cant answer the question as to why or how God created us, I can only answer that He did.


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## stringmusic (Nov 24, 2010)

TTom said:


> Example of faith even beyond the bible.
> 
> If we assume that all the species of animals were all sent to Noah for the ark. There is no story about how the animals that were sent to Noah returned to their homes. Or how they managed in some cases journeys of 4,000 miles each way.
> 
> ...



 If you come to the answer in your life that God is what He is, then everything in the Bible would be true correct?


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## pnome (Nov 24, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> I'll give you one... Heaven



Then why not just give me heaven?  Why require the relationship and this mortal life?

Don't answer that.... because I think the quote below gets to the heart of my point.



> I cant answer the question as to why or how God created us



Exactly.  Because those things are unknowable.



> I can only answer that He did.



And how do you know that?


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## stringmusic (Nov 24, 2010)

pnome said:


> Then why not just give me heaven?  Why require the relationship and this mortal life?
> 
> Don't answer that.... because I think the quote below gets to the heart of my point.
> 
> ...



After acknowledging God everything else is through Him, that is the way I see things. 
I think we have established the faith that I/Christians have.
After the acknowledgement of God and faith that what he said is truth(Bible)there is a meaning to life, so to me, meaning is not unknowable


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## pnome (Nov 24, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> After acknowledging God everything else is through Him, that is the way I see things.
> I think we have established the faith that I/Christians have.
> After the acknowledgement of God and faith that what he said is truth(Bible)there is a meaning to life, so to me, meaning is not unknowable



You'll have to excuse me.  But I find that answer singularly incoherent.


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## TTom (Nov 24, 2010)

Incorrect String we've gone over this before I do not believe the bible is uncorrupted or even ment to be read only as a literal document, or even a collection of stories that are 100% true and correct. So there is plenty of room for the bible to be incorrect even though I believe in God.

The story of the great flood is designed to explain away the fossils of fish found in rocks on mountains. Lacking the understanding of sciences like Geology, Hydrology, Biology, and Physics that we have today. There needed to be a story that put water higher than the mountains.


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## Achilles Return (Nov 26, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> Definitions of coherent (adj)
> co·her·ent [ kÅ� hïŸ¼rÉ™nt ]
> logically or aesthetically consistent: logically or aesthetically consistent and holding together as a harmonious or credible whole
> speaking logically: able to speak clearly and logically



Simply admitting "I don't know" because they don't adhere to the standards of evidence or reason seems fairly logical consistent to me.


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## kpfister (Nov 30, 2010)

I'm gonna have to go ahead and question the OP.  

Why MUST we have answers to these questions RIGHT NOW?

Are we not allowed, as human beings, to explore all possibilities?

Is it wrong to say, "I don't know"?

Why must I live for someone or something else?

Is my life meaningless if I don't accept your meaning?

Am I a bad person if I didn't get my morals from your book but happen to agree with them?

Destiny, really?  If it's all preordained then what's the point?


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## stringmusic (Dec 1, 2010)

kpfister said:


> I'm gonna have to go ahead and question the OP.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## stringmusic (Dec 1, 2010)

Achilles Return said:


> Simply admitting "I don't know" because they don't adhere to the standards of evidence or reason seems fairly logical consistent to me.



A ? is a coherent answer?


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## bckpack (Dec 1, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> I believe these are the four questions that must be answered in life, EVERYONE wants to have a coherent set of answers for these questions.



You are exactly right.  That's why every civilization across time has concocted fantastic stories of higher beings to explain the answers to the questions you pose.  You don't think this type of thing only started after the birth of Christ do you?

Simply, religion or spirituality exists solely to explain where we came from and what happens when we die.


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## ambush80 (Dec 1, 2010)

bckpack said:


> You are exactly right.  That's why every civilization across time has concocted fantastic stories of higher beings to explain the answers to the questions you pose.  You don't think this type of thing only started after the birth of Christ do you?
> 
> Simply, religion or spirituality exists solely to explain where we came from and what happens when we die.



Do you consider them to be adequate explanations?


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## stringmusic (Dec 1, 2010)

bckpack said:


> You are exactly right.  That's why every civilization across time has concocted fantastic stories of higher beings to explain the answers to the questions you pose.  You don't think this type of thing only started after the birth of Christ do you?


No



> Simply, religion or spirituality exists solely to explain where we came from and what happens when we die.



Give me some truth to that statement.
 what are your answers to the questions?


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## stringmusic (Dec 1, 2010)

we are now up to 93 replies and 807 views and the same 3 answers(if thats what ya'll still insist they are,) still interesting.
Seems the only way to answer these questions if your an athiest or agnostic is "I dont know"
People love to chime in and say "Your Christian anwers are wrong" but dont seem to want to answer the questions themselves.


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## davidstaples (Dec 1, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> Seems the only way to answer these questions if your an athiest or agnostic is "I dont know"



Umm... that's kind of the definition of an agnostic... "a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as god, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable".  If you don't mind my asking, what on earth could you have possibly thought an agnostic was otherwise?


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## stringmusic (Dec 1, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> Umm... that's kind of the definition of an agnostic... "a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as god, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable".  If you don't mind my asking, what on earth could you have possibly thought an agnostic was otherwise?



I should not have included the question mark peop.....I mean agnostics.


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## kpfister (Dec 2, 2010)

> Quote:
> Why MUST we have answers to these questions RIGHT NOW?
> when do you plan on finding out?


I'm really not worried, I will.



> Quote:
> Is it wrong to say, "I don't know"?
> No Its not wrong to say I dont know, most people just want coherent answers to these particular questions.


I'm OK with it.



> Quote:
> Why must I live for someone or something else?
> you shouldnt live for someone else, but you should be living for the one that created you.


So you don't have an answer to my question.  



> Quote:
> Is my life meaningless if I don't accept your meaning?
> Its not MY meaning, its Gods. What is your answer to the question of meaning?


Sooo..is my life meaningless if I don't accept Gods meaning?  
I am prepared to accept the fact that there is no greater meaning to my life.  However, I choose to act in a moral way because I can see that it positively affects those around me and that makes me feel good and my life more enjoyable.  Selfish?  Sure, a little bit.  



> Quote:
> Am I a bad person if I didn't get my morals from your book but happen to agree with them?
> no, Christianity didnt invent morals, God did.


Thanks for telling me that I am not a bad person



> Quote:
> Destiny, really? If it's all preordained then what's the point?
> If you will read back through the post this has already been an issue.
> Where will you be when your heart stops, and why?


Hopefully near a hospital, and because of too much red meat and cheese.  Seriously, I don't know and neither do you.

I'm an agnostic and unafraid of admitting that I don't know.


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## stringmusic (Dec 2, 2010)

> I'm an agnostic and unafraid of admitting that I don't know.



take an educated guess, its better than "I dont know"


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## stringmusic (Dec 2, 2010)

> So you don't have an answer to my question.


the answer to your question is, you dont HAVE to live for anything if you choose not to.  




> Sooo..is my life meaningless if I don't accept Gods meaning?


yes, by your own choice. You can make up your own meaning or use someone else's meaning but it will not be coherent to everyone on the planet.  



> I am prepared to accept the fact that there is no greater meaning to my life.  However, I choose to act in a moral way because I can see that it positively affects those around me and that makes me feel good and my life more enjoyable.  Selfish?  Sure, a little bit.


not a little bit, completely 




> Thanks for telling me that I am not a bad person


your welcome




> Hopefully near a hospital, and because of too much red meat and cheese.  Seriously, I don't know and neither do you.


do you not believe in/have faith?



> I'm an agnostic and unafraid of admitting that I don't know.


I dont know alot of things.... I'm not agnostic.


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## davidstaples (Dec 2, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> take an educated guess, its better than "I dont know"



Those are one in the same.  Those of us who have educated ourselves in more than just the Bible and are unafraid of the consequences of our decision have chosen "I don't know".  It's more than a guess... it's a definitive unknown.


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## davidstaples (Dec 2, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> Quote:
> "Sooo..is my life meaningless if I don't accept Gods meaning?"
> 
> yes, by your own choice. You can make up your own meaning or use someone else's meaning but it will not be coherent to everyone on the planet.



So, as a Christian, is your life meaningful to everyone on the planet then?



> Quote:
> "I am prepared to accept the fact that there is no greater meaning to my life. However, I choose to act in a moral way because I can see that it positively affects those around me and that makes me feel good and my life more enjoyable. Selfish? Sure, a little bit."
> 
> not a little bit, completely



How is it completely selfish if it positively affects those around him?  Perhaps you should look up the definition of completely.



> Quote:
> "Hopefully near a hospital, and because of too much red meat and cheese. Seriously, I don't know and neither do you."
> do you not believe in/have faith?



People of faith die too.  Whether you like it or not.  And your faith isn't going to magically get you to a hospital to get your heart restarted.  I'm with him... hopefully I'm near a hospital if my heart decides to stop.  I'd prefer to spend my time on Earth than dead.


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## stringmusic (Dec 8, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> Those are one in the same.  Those of us who have educated ourselves in more than just the Bible and are unafraid of the consequences of our decision have chosen "I don't know".  It's more than a guess... it's a definitive unknown.



Wouldnt you have to know everything to make that statement?


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