# Sub Magnum Handgun Calibers for deer



## Swampfoxoutdoors (Sep 4, 2012)

I am thinking about hunting with a 357 sig and I know it does not level up to the great 357 magnum. but If I was to keep all shots with in bow range what do you think about its effectiveness?

The link below is a loading that I would likely duplicate or buy to use for hunting. 

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=317

I know that question pops up quite a bit about using sub magnum calibers for deer hunting such as the 9mm, 38special, 40SW, 357sig, 45acp and 38super. But the way I look at it is if an individual can get his or her shots within a 8-10 circle at any given distance from 0-50yards it should be fine. Alot of people look at handgun hunting with such calibers as listed above as inhumane but yet those same people advocate Bow hunting as humane but yet a average compound bow can not have any more than 150 foot pounds of energy if that. Now I do understand that a arrow head Cuts all the way thru but I would think a sub magnum caliber would do  more tissue damage than any broad head in a compound bow could ever dream of doing. With all the great expandable projectiles available on the market such as the XTP, Gold dot, and speer deepcurl I thin k that any major handgun round will work on deer. 

But that's my 2 cents so please if anyone has anything to add or detract from what I said please post your views below!


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## Tomahawk1088 (Sep 4, 2012)

Swampfoxoutdoors said:


> I am thinking about hunting with a 357 sig and I know it does not level up to the great 357 magnum. but If I was to keep all shots with in bow range what do you think about its effectiveness?
> 
> The link below is a loading that I would likely duplicate or buy to use for hunting.
> 
> ...



Uh oh, you done it now!

I would believe the load you listed would do fine, as it is very close to .357 magnum velocities. Only about 75 fps difference if we are talking about the 1425 fps load.


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## Inthegarge (Sep 4, 2012)

Actually, most calibers would kill a deer at bow range.....It's more about shot placement..... Yes, you'll hear a lot of flack but shoot the deer you want with the gun you want and tell them to go pound sand.............


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## deast1988 (Sep 4, 2012)

My brother wanted to try pistol on whitetail so I went to a sporting good store with a great selection of bullets and after comparing several we chose the 230gr golden saber by remington in a .45acp and my brother know he doesnt want to shoot past 20yds with this set up but routinely carrys it most all his rifle hunts but hes yet to put it to the test when he does there will be pictures posted on here. Shot placement is key High shoulder right behind the shoulder neck are all places I would consider placeing a sub magnum bullet.


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## ejs1980 (Sep 4, 2012)

There have been many people shot through the heart with a handgun and survive the trip to the hospital some even survived surgery and went on to live normal lives. Never heard of anything surviving a broadhead through the heart. 

Hunt with the sig if you must. I hunt some with a 10mm. It gets the job done but it is definetly not overpowering. The sig will kill a deer but If you touch that shoulder bone you will probably only get one lung. Good luck.

Ok now I am going to pound sand.


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## Tomahawk1088 (Sep 4, 2012)

Well, some people can survive arrow through the head:

http://discussions.texasbowhunter.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112306

http://articles.latimes.com/1993-05-06/news/mn-31906_1_brain-damage


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## HandgunHTR (Sep 4, 2012)

ejs1980 said:


> There have been many people shot through the heart with a handgun and survive the trip to the hospital some even survived surgery and went on to live normal lives. Never heard of anything surviving a broadhead through the heart.
> 
> Hunt with the sig if you must. I hunt some with a 10mm. It gets the job done but it is definetly not overpowering. The sig will kill a deer but If you touch that shoulder bone you will probably only get one lung. Good luck.
> 
> Ok now I am going to pound sand.



75% of all serious gunshot wounds that come into the ER end up surviving.  

75% of all serious knife wounds that come into the ER end up in a bag.

I am not saying that bows are better than guns at killing deer, but bows don't use energy to do anything more than push the razors.  Bullets need a bunch more energy to do the same job.

Can a .357 kill a deer?  Yep.  If you put one in the boiler room withing 30 yards, that deer will eventually die.  Will it be DRT?  Maybe.  Will there be an exit and bloodtrail?  Maybe.

I don't know about you, but I don't like "maybe" when it comes to killing deer.


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## Tomahawk1088 (Sep 4, 2012)

In 1934-1935, right before the introduction of the .357 magnum, Colonel Doug B. Wesson used the .357 magnum with an 8 3/4" barrel to take 4 big game animals. He took a pronghorn, an elk, a moose, and a GRIZZLY bear, all at 100 yards or more. The load used was a 158 gr. SWC at 1,500 fps. I think the .357 Sig load proposed by Swampfox would kill a whitetail deer.


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## Philbow (Sep 5, 2012)

The 357 SIG achieves its high velocity with 125 grain or less bullet weights. A quick check of the internet shows very few loads having a 147 grain bullet at a nominal 1250 fps, probably from a pressure barrel, so your semiauto will not reach that velocity. IMHO deer hunting suitable handgun rounds start at the 357 magnum with 158 grain or heavier bullets. But any centerfire round 22 and above is legal, so hunt with whatever you wish.


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## Swampfoxoutdoors (Sep 5, 2012)

I am so glad everyone is posting his opioion. I was really fearing that this would turn into a bow hunter vs handgun hunter is unethical type thread after tomahawk brought it to my attention. 

I will say this I think both forms of deer hunting BOW and HAND GUN are both ETHICAL.


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## Swampfoxoutdoors (Sep 5, 2012)

And a reply to handgunhtr 

I work at a funeral home as a embalmer so your 75% of all serious gun shot wounds end up surviving statement really does not hold water with me. I am not calling you a liar but from what I have seem FIRST HAND experience a .22 rim fire -12ga all ends in death.


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## WGSNewnan (Sep 5, 2012)

Swampfoxoutdoors said:


> And a reply to handgunhtr
> 
> I work at a funeral home as a embalmer so your 75% of all serious gun shot wounds end up surviving statement really does not hold water with me. I am not calling you a liar but from what I have seem FIRST HAND experience a .22 rim fire -12ga all ends in death.


from your perspective, 100% of all serious gunshot wounds end up dead. doesnt mean he is wrong though.


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## Swampfoxoutdoors (Sep 5, 2012)

true.


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## Swampfoxoutdoors (Sep 5, 2012)

But lets no go down this road about human death from handguns. 

lets keep this thread on track with peoples opinions about Sub magnum handgun hunting at reasonable ranges. And thanks for everyone's input thus far!


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## Boot (Sep 5, 2012)

In my HUMBLE opinion, any hunting requires the same thing. HUNT the animal,and get within reasonable range for your weapon of choice. Folks been takin deer, elk, and some bear with weapons alot less "magnum" than the 357sig for many years. Our great grandfathers had to feed and protect their families with whatever they had. If you want to "shoot deer from afar", get you a contender in a rifle caliber.............. If you want to HUNT deer, and are proficient with your sidearm, I believe the 357sig will be fine, with proper shot placement. But that rule applies to EVERY weapon.


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## Swampfoxoutdoors (Sep 5, 2012)

Boot you have hit the nail on the head with your statement! Thank you for your Humble (wise) opinion.


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## Boot (Sep 5, 2012)

Wise?!? My kids just say I'm ancient, and antique. Funny thing is, any time something resembling wise comes out, I sound just like my dad . Lol. Good hunting this season, and keep us updated on the outcome of your hunt.


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## Swampfoxoutdoors (Sep 6, 2012)

I will! I am going to try to take a deer first with my 41 blackhawk then probably use my Glock 34 or 1911R1. I have not bought the 357 sig yet but will probably be getting one in the months to come.


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## GunnSmokeer (Sep 6, 2012)

*Two Points*

1-- If you work in a funeral home, 100% of the clients you deal with who have had gunshot wounds will be dead.

But if you provide physical theraphy and rehabilitation services, 100% of your clients who have suffered gunshot wounds have survived.

2-- my cousin took a lot of deer with great success with a .357 magnum, but he was shooting from 25 yards or less with an 8" barreled revolver that had a red dot scope. He could keep all his shots in a 4" group at that distance with that gun.  (offhand, not just from a benchrest)

He always used 158 grain slugs, but I think he could have used 125 grain soft points to good effect too. That's my educated guess.


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## Michael F. Gray (Sep 6, 2012)

Good comments. I've taken several from above while sitting in my tree stand with a Smith & Wesson Model 19 with 2.5 " tube. Range was less that 15 feet. I lost one that I know died. It was hit in the head, but didn't drop. I now use .44 Magnum with handloads in the hot .44 special range. This combination has proved effective. Never had one do much more than jump up and fall over.


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## Apex Predator (Sep 8, 2012)

Your inexperience as a bowhunter shows through here.  A broadhead is a very efficient killing implement.  A small caliber bullet, not so much.


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## 7dawg9 (Sep 8, 2012)

There are a couple of good threads running on www.handgunhunt.com about using 44 Specials instead of 44 magnums. It suggests some factory ammo also.


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## Swampfoxoutdoors (Sep 10, 2012)

your right apex I am not much of a bow hunter but if you would have read all of my post I do consider a bow hunting as a viable way of taking game. I also think that hunting with sub magnum handguns is viable also if shots are kept at a reasonable distance. 

I do want all of you BOW PUREST KNOW I AM NOT SAY THAT BOWS ARE INFERIOR they work great and have been doing so for hundreds of years!

I am simply wanting peoples opinions and first hand experiences using sub magnum handguns for hunting. I do not want this to be a Bow vs Handgun hate thread.


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## trial&error (Sep 10, 2012)

357 Sig will do the job.  Ammunition isn't cheap to practice with and reloading is becoming difficult.  Since you haven't bought the pistol yet assuming an automatic was what your after.  Try something with straight walled cases if you reload.


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## ejs1980 (Sep 10, 2012)

Most people will argue over pistol calibers and stopping power. All autos are anemic in comparison to what most people hunt with. You started talking about the 357 sig and shooting up to 50 yds. You've since brought up a g34 which is 9mm. They will work within their ranges and limitations. I definetly wouldn't consider the 9mm a 50 yd gun. If you haven't already got the 357 look into a 10mm. It is a good efficient cartridge that has enough power for the platform it is offered in and not much more. If you don't reload I would suggest the 10mm with a lone wolf 40 barrel to go with it. It shouldn't take long to save enough on ammo to cover the cost of the barrel.


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## HandgunHTR (Sep 10, 2012)

Swampfoxoutdoors said:


> I am simply wanting peoples opinions and first hand experiences using sub magnum handguns for hunting. I do not want this to be a Bow vs Handgun hate thread.



You asked for opinions so please don't be offended when people offer theirs.

You are also the one who brought up bowhunting, so again, don't be surprised when people attempt to educate you as to why the wound channel created by a .357 Sig / 9mm is not as effective at killing deer as the wound channel created by a good broadhead.

As for the .357 Sig being a 50 yard killer, I say no.  25 yards with good shot placement.  Probably.  Over 25 yards, not so much.

As I have posted on this forum, I have taken deer with a black powder revolver shooting a round ball.  But my self-imposed max yardage was 10 yards, and I shot that deer at 2 yards (basically straight down out of the stand).

I will continue to use handguns to hunt deer, but you can bet that if I plan on shooting past 10 yards, it will be done with a caliber that will put down a deer every single time with good shot placement.

Lastly, I will say this before the discussion goes that way.  Shooting people and shooting deer are two completely different things.  People's bodies react differently than a deer's when the red stuff starts leaking out.


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## Swampfoxoutdoors (Sep 11, 2012)

Yes I would limit all handgun shots to less than 10-20 yards max. I will agree that a 9mm at 50 yards leaves way too much room for error. Now with my 41 and a little more practice I think 45-50 yards is doable. 

I have thought very seriously about the glock 10 mm but it has kinda close to the same ballistics as my 41. I was wanting something to bridge the gap between a 9mm and my 41 magnum. I really like the idea of the 357sig but like you said the reloading process can be a bit difficult but I have been reloading bottle neck cartridges since I have started 7 years ago. SO hopefully it shouldn't  be too difficult. I will probably use 40 brass to make plinking loads and use 357 sig brass for full power loads.


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## ejs1980 (Sep 11, 2012)

I have known people that complained about the 357 being the hardest thing they have ever tried to load for. I know others who run them throught their progressive press just like every other caliber they load for and never have a problem.


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## j_seph (Sep 11, 2012)

Sounds like if there is no ER around the deer won't make it.


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## HandgunHTR (Sep 12, 2012)

ejs1980 said:


> I have known people that complained about the 357 being the hardest thing they have ever tried to load for. I know others who run them throught their progressive press just like every other caliber they load for and never have a problem.



Yeah, the problem with the .357 Sig is that it is bottleneck cartridge that still headspaces off of the case mouth, like other autos, instead of the shoulder, like other bottlenecks.

If you have a decent chamber and your dies set right, you shouldn't have an issue.


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## Philbow (Sep 13, 2012)

j_seph said:


> Sounds like if there is no ER around the deer won't make it.



The problem is the distance they do make before they don't "make it". The "sub magnums" limit is not just killing deer, even the 25 auto could be legally used to hunt and kill deer. Having enough "power" (or whatever you wish to call it) to find the deer after you have shot it, IMHO, begins at the 357 magnum with 158 grain or heavier bullets.


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## tim scott (Sep 15, 2012)

nearly everyone mis-judges the 9mm. most that bad mouth it have no experience with it.  in a quality, strong handgun it is very impressive.... not using the low powered american ammo... try the stuff from germany or israel.... they now mark the boxes "for carbine use" thats pc for submachine gun ammo....put it in a cheap plastic gun and well..... the gun won't last long. but use the stuff in a 1911 platform... target sights, barrel and the proper recoil spring... then you have a handfull.... fully at 357 mag power level. your right it's no 50 yard gun, rather it's a 100 yard gun. i've loaded and used the 9mm in the hot european type loads for 32 years. i use both a 120 grain cast lead bullet as well as a 160 grain.

the important thing when hunting is bullet placement... all those mentioned 9mm, 38 special etc etc. are fine hunting calibers in the right hands. so use the .357 sig and have no worries about it being able to stop a deer or pig... if it fails to then it wasn't the caliber but the shooter. i guess the ultimate sub magnum would be the .22lr.... have taken two deer.... not that i went out hunting deer with it but rather it was what i had on me when i needed/ wanted to shoot a deer..... one dropped on the spot and kicked around for a minute or two the other stumbled about 20 feet then dropped and never moved again. my all time favorite handgun is a pre-war colt woodsman sport model.... have fired 3", 10 shot groups at 100 yard range using iron sights many times for drinking money...
so use what ya got, just use it well.
tim


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## Larry Rooks (Nov 7, 2012)

The BULLET is the most important part of the question.  If you use a bad quality bullet in a rifle, and it blows apart and does not penetrate, you lose game, they recover, suffer for a while but they recover.  You use wrong bullet in
357 Sig, you lose game.  You use wrong bullet in 44 Mag, you lose game.  I watched a BIG 9 point being shot in the neck with a 7Mm Rem Mag, deer dropped, kicked and then quickly dissappeared.  Same buck shot again about 10 days later with 223 Rem and he dropped in tracks.  The hunter that shot him with 7 Mad was using a factory 120 gr bullet that blew up on impact, there was a big hunk of meat gone from the deers neck, dead center, but it did not penetrate enough to get the bone.  This deer suffered for the next 10 days, rotted wound full of maggots etc.  He was very weak 
when shot 10 days later (accross road) but he would have eventua;ly recovered.  USE enough bullet.

PS  FBI though 9MM was enough too, it wasn't


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## Apex Predator (Nov 8, 2012)

tim scott said:


> nearly everyone mis-judges the 9mm. most that bad mouth it have no experience with it.  in a quality, strong handgun it is very impressive.... not using the low powered american ammo... try the stuff from germany or israel.... they now mark the boxes "for carbine use" thats pc for submachine gun ammo....put it in a cheap plastic gun and well..... the gun won't last long. but use the stuff in a 1911 platform... target sights, barrel and the proper recoil spring... then you have a handfull.... fully at 357 mag power level. your right it's no 50 yard gun, rather it's a 100 yard gun. i've loaded and used the 9mm in the hot european type loads for 32 years. i use both a 120 grain cast lead bullet as well as a 160 grain.
> 
> the important thing when hunting is bullet placement... all those mentioned 9mm, 38 special etc etc. are fine hunting calibers in the right hands. so use the .357 sig and have no worries about it being able to stop a deer or pig... if it fails to then it wasn't the caliber but the shooter. i guess the ultimate sub magnum would be the .22lr.... have taken two deer.... not that i went out hunting deer with it but rather it was what i had on me when i needed/ wanted to shoot a deer..... one dropped on the spot and kicked around for a minute or two the other stumbled about 20 feet then dropped and never moved again. my all time favorite handgun is a pre-war colt woodsman sport model.... have fired 3", 10 shot groups at 100 yard range using iron sights many times for drinking money...
> so use what ya got, just use it well.
> tim



California huh? Alrighty then!


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## Bilge Rat LT 20 (Nov 8, 2012)

The problem with sub mag. rounds is user accuracy, when pushing a heavy bullet fast out of a lighter gun. Recoil is sharp and shot placement suffers.

Unless you shoot a big handgun often meaning almost weekly a shooter will not be able to perform under pressure most of the time.

Why are you wanting to use a smaller round? If you have taken deer with the bigger stuff i could see that.
If you are recoil shy and do not want a heavy recoiling handgun that is not a good idea.
Try taking a 41 or 44 and load a lighter bullet for it and push it fast.

Take that to the range and shoot it a few times in real hunting positions.

I have my own range and have taken deer with 44 ans 357 mag. It takes practice to put the bullet where it counts when under pressure.  If you want to use a handgun as the primary arm do yourself and the game animal a favor. Respect both.


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## Flaustin1 (Nov 11, 2012)

Apex Predator said:


> California huh? Alrighty then!



My thoughts exactly..  I mean i was about to post the same exact thing.  Hey Cali boy,  ive got some drinking money


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