# Differences between flushing dogs and pointing breeds



## Fat Albert (Apr 5, 2013)

Alright... Forgive my ignorance once more please. I'm trying to catch up here with the upland scene! What are the differences between the flushing breeds and pointing breeds in real hunting scenarios. If you have pics of your hunting buddies doing their thing please share!


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## BirdNut (Apr 5, 2013)

I think the main thing is range and how you want to hunt-flushers in general are going to range to the gun whereas pointing breeds _in general_ are going to be ranging further out and will pin and hold their game, indicating the presence, but waiting on you for the flush.

It also depends on the bird you plan to hunt.  For quail, most people use pointing breeds although there was a great video of a flusher on here a while back.  I have not experience hunting quail over flushing dogs, but that video was interesting to watch.

I think some people train their flushers to hup when they scent birds, sit until the gunner arrives, then the dog flushes command.  The other method seems to be the dog is always hunting within range of the guns, that way when the dog puts up a bird, a shot can be made.  Personally, I think this method has drawbacks unless you are hunting really really narrow holding cover (i.e. the birds WILL NOT be in 90% of the cover you are hunting) and you have to plan your route through the bird holding cover.  An ideal situation would be a long 10-15 yard hedgerow surrounded by clean fields holding no cover for the birds, therefore the only place they COULD be is in the hedgerow.  I think flushers would be less than ideal for open piney woods, cut overs, and other big cover where the birds could be literally anywhere in a big block of habitat.  This would require you to walk with the dog in some kind of search pattern to find birds-not my thing, but might be other peoples.

I prefer ranging pointing breeds that you can take through say a 100 or 200 acre block of piney woods or other cover and feel reasonably certain your single route and the dogs ranging covered the area thouroughly.  Sometimes you have to ring and loop through or around an area, and other areas are to be avoided entirely.

I think the other area a flusher might do really well on quail would be in the narrow bottomland fields you tend to find in the mountains. 

I can see where a flusher would be useful in narrow riparian corridors holding woodcock.

I have hunted over flushing dogs for pheasant in what basically amounted to a long skirmish line of several hundred yards, and 3-4 labs coursing back and forth incessantly within yards of the skirmish line.  Personally, I grew bored with this kind of hunting after a day.

I like to see a pointer run, checking likely objectives, while I walk and enjoy my hunting companions.  A couple pointers and a britt or setter working in a 3 dog brace is just about ideal to me.  Seeing the pointer lock-up, bracemates come in and honor, and taking in the scene as you walk up to shoot a covey rise is more my style than pushing birds up in front of you with a flusher.


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## BirdNut (Apr 5, 2013)

Also, I think the real value of the flusher (as on the above mentioned Pheasant hunt) is to bring a bird to hand once shot.  Some of the roosters that were hammered would be back up and run down the corn rows.  The big labs were on them like lightning.  Other days we hunted without labs and we shot just many birds, but had to chase a few.  I shot one I swear was dead in the air, but thumping the ground re-started his heart, and it was off the the races.

I have hunted where people keep English Cockers (not American) on a truck and these dogs are phenomenal at digging wounded birds out of heavy cover-birds that otherwise would have been lost.

So, I think flushers excel at bird getting-resulting in the bird being in hand after the shot.  I think you will _find_ about as many birds on your own.  I am clearly biased towards pointing breeds finding more birds than either man or flusher.

My opinion only, but flushers are an arcane breed-meant to be used in the middle ages while using falcons.  I think its great they have persisted into the modern firearms age, but I think their most efficient days are behind them.  They were likely the dog of choice for a falconer, back when our ancestors were hacking each other with swords and axes.  Now, I think a pointer and the gun is the optimal choice.  Interestingly, setters got their name becuase they would set (lie down) to indicate the presence of birds for the net-then the netters would come up and throw a net over birds and maybe dog too.  Must have looked a lot like people cast netting for shrimp.  I think even today, some setter lines have a tendency to crouch or lie down and while its thought of as a fault today, its really strong genetics from that served well the methods of long ago.

If someone out here is a flusher fan, more power to you. 

Personally as stated, I am biased towards the pointing dog as being the best choice today.  But I can imagine, as habitat becomes more fragmented, maybe a good cocker working the minimal cover would be the thing, if birds can hold on in such a world.  Having your pointer range out into the road is a tough thing.


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## BirdNut (Apr 5, 2013)

Oh and one more thing (I am becoming master of the three post)

The same English Cocker that one day was digging up unfindable quail burrowed into buffle grass was retrieving ducks on a playa the next morning.  I don't think they would handle geese very well, due to their size, or rough big water.  But he did make some long long retrieves on red heads and widgeon.


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## Fat Albert (Apr 5, 2013)

Interesting. Thanks for the comparisons!


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## L.C (Apr 5, 2013)

Well. I have both and hunt both flushing and pointing breeds. I have seen hard running pointers tin to pass birds where a flushed working tighter will pick them up. But its all in what u like. I enjoy both and have had a blast this past season with my English cocker. She will flush birds out of the thickest brair and privett row that no pointer can do. But she cant run has hard as some the pointing breeds but that ok with me. I also have a small munsterlander in training and he doing great too.


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## StevePickard (Apr 6, 2013)

Fat Albert
I've been a Brittany man all my life.  A plantation manager where I do a lot of work had me take the last Field Bred English Cocker pup he had  left to do basic training with it.  Our intention was to get his basic training done and sell him after a started dog.  Well, long story short, after less than a month working with this dog, I called the manager and informed him we would not be selling him as I intended to keep him.  I absolutely fell in love with the dog! He takes to training extremely well, has tons of drive and is an absolute angel in the house at 6 months old.  Most young pups I've tried to keep in the house was into everything and you couldn't take your eyes off of them for a second.  If I'm in the office working, he'll actually just lay down beside me and stay there! He's turning into my best buddy!  
I intend to train him to heel while quail hunting with the Brittanys, and use him for the flush.  I'm also planning to use him for the occasional wood duck that falls in the duck hole.  
I had someone video his very first water retrieve on my iPhone.  If someone can send me a private message on how to post a video, I'll post it.
He's my first experience with an English Cocker, but so far I'm loving working with him.  I had him on quail Thursday.  After his first flush he was absolutely on fire in the briar patches!
He's also got some half brother's and sisters that are about 2 weeks old at the plantation!
Steve Pickard


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## Fat Albert (Apr 6, 2013)

StevePickard said:


> Fat Albert
> I've been a Brittany man all my life.  A plantation manager where I do a lot of work had me take the last Field Bred English Cocker pup he had  left to do basic training with it.  Our intention was to get his basic training done and sell him after a started dog.  Well, long story short, after less than a month working with this dog, I called the manager and informed him we would not be selling him as I intended to keep him.  I absolutely fell in love with the dog! He takes to training extremely well, has tons of drive and is an absolute angel in the house at 6 months old.  Most young pups I've tried to keep in the house was into everything and you couldn't take your eyes off of them for a second.  If I'm in the office working, he'll actually just lay down beside me and stay there! He's turning into my best buddy!
> I intend to train him to heel while quail hunting with the Brittanys, and use him for the flush.  I'm also planning to use him for the occasional wood duck that falls in the duck hole.
> I had someone video his very first water retrieve on my iPhone.  If someone can send me a private message on how to post a video, I'll post it.
> ...



I could see how a man could wind up with multiple dogs around the house in a hurry like that! He sounds like a great pup for sure. My brother used to have a cocker spaniel many moons ago. I'm not sure what kind but he definitely wasn't any kind of hunter. I don't think my brother even owned a gun. But that dog was so obnoxious that it made me say I'd never own a cocker in my life! Of course I know now breeding and raising have so much to do with things like that.


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## BirdNut (Apr 8, 2013)

L.C said:


> Well. I have both and hunt both flushing and pointing breeds. I have seen hard running pointers tin to pass birds where a flushed working tighter will pick them up. But its all in what u like. I enjoy both and have had a blast this past season with my English cocker. She will flush birds out of the thickest brair and privett row that no pointer can do. But she cant run has hard as some the pointing breeds but that ok with me. I also have a small munsterlander in training and he doing great too.



I think it would be interesting to pair the pointers with a flusher.  I used to hunt a bigger string and would often hunt 2 pointers and a closer working dog for just such a situation as you bring up.


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## BirdNut (Apr 8, 2013)

The English cockers I have been around are great dogs-but the sum total of my experience is 2, and only one in the field-they only let him find downed birds-he did not hunt for covies for us, though I don't doubt that he could have.  This was down in Mexico, his name was Bob, and the hands called him El Bob.


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## BirdNut (Apr 8, 2013)

Fat Albert said:


> I could see how a man could wind up with multiple dogs around the house in a hurry like that! He sounds like a great pup for sure. My brother used to have a cocker spaniel many moons ago. I'm not sure what kind but he definitely wasn't any kind of hunter. I don't think my brother even owned a gun. But that dog was so obnoxious that it made me say I'd never own a cocker in my life! Of course I know now breeding and raising have so much to do with things like that.



May have been an American Cocker.  They also used to (or still do) have a rep for being aggressive-I think at one time this was the dog that most bit people.

I also have a funny American Cocker story.  I had gotten drawn with friends for an in-demand WMA quail hunt on a place that just opened up.  I had my usual crew of dogs down, and we had done alright.  The dogs started acting squirelly so I called them in.  Hogs?  No,  Snake?  No.  Two dudes out for a walk in the woods?  Yes.  I got a hold of my Brittany just in case.  Well, we had a nice conversation.  Sadly, these gentlemen had had no luck.  I commiserated with them that hunting without a dog is tough.  "Oh we have a dog".  I inquired if they had lost him and needed help-to which they responded "no, he's right here".  I looked around kind of feeling like an idiot because I saw no dog.  Then, one of the hunters moved his hand a little, and there it was, his wife's beautiful little chocolate colored American Cocker...in his coat pocket.

I was stunned.  I did not know what to say, because just like momma taught all of us, if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.  Especially about an man's bird dog.  However, the shock on my face felt like it was so appalling that I needed to say SOMETHING.  "What do you have here" was all I could croak out.  That's how I found out it was his wife's American Cocker, and that they had been carrying it like that in the coat pretty much all day.  I asked if they wanted to hunt with us (feeling sorry for them), but they politely declined, saying they had to get the baby home to momma soon.  That was one of the strangest things that has ever happened to me in the quail woods.


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## Fat Albert (Apr 8, 2013)

That's funny right there! What a visual!


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## Timberdoodle (May 8, 2013)

All my Cockers (American) have hunt titles.  The smallest one, female, competed in a tournament hunt - came in fourth and put up eight quail in 10 minutes for my wife.  She had an earlier run with me an hour earlier, putting up four in 10.  She is not even the best hunter in the house.  She is also a finished AKC show champion (and no, she is not in long show coat - it does come off).

The "rage" issue is a non-issue in Cockers, as far as quality breeders are concerned.  It was chiefly (before my time) a backyard breeder issue.  Anyone can breed for a cute six-week puppy (of any breed) to pawn off on an unsuspecting buyer.  

If you treat a sporting dog like a pet, or a baby, you can't then make them into something they are not later.  - poor quality in; poor results out.   If you want a hunter, start as you want to finish - teaching good lessons in a conducive environment.

RE the OP, flushers vs pointers is a conversation like like 9mm vs .45, 12 ga. vs 20 ga., etc.  It depends what you do in the field, and how you like to do it.  You are on the right track: ask lots of questions for all places willing to answer.

Continued good luck with your new pup.  He is awfully cute!


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## StevePickard (May 9, 2013)

I've been working with my new Field Bred English Cocker, Smokey, for about 3 months now and I could not be more pleased with him!  I plan to use him as a flusher, heeled while my Brittanys work and then send him in for the flush, and for duck and dove retrieving on my minimal chances at ducks and doves.  First AKC Spaniel Hunt Test of the season and we will be there! 

Timberdoodle-please let me know when the hunt tests start!

I have a great video on my Iphone of Smokey's first water retrieve but I have no idea how to post it.  If someone can help, please PM me and let me know how to do it.  I'd love to share it with ya'll!
Steve


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## Timberdoodle (May 9, 2013)

StevePickard said:


> Timberdoodle-please let me know when the hunt tests start!



Congrats on the new addition!  Remember, training should be all loosely structured play - FUN!

http://www.akc.org/events/search/in...ctive_tab_row=3&active_tab_col=2&fixed_tab=12  is the AKC site for all events.  Choose "Hunt Test" and dates and states.  Info changes as tests are added, and includes Spaniel Hunt Tests, as well as Retriever tests and Setter/Pointer tests.

There are four AKC Hunt tests in the South.  My club, the Cocker Spaniel Specialty Club of Georgia, will hold our 23rd consecutive annual AKC Spaniel Hunt Test the first weekend in December in Jackson, GA.  We also hold a Spaniel Working Certificate Test hunting test on the day before, and may add Instinct Evaluations as well.  We also encourage Junior Handlers with a reduced entry fee.

There are three others: November in Heflin, AL (Welsh Springer sponsored); February in Bowman, GA (English Springer Spaniel sponsored); and March in South Carolina (Boykin Spaniel sponsored).

All are fun tests, and you will recognize lots of folks that do many or all these tests.

As the respective dates get closer, feel free to email their HT Secretary for a premium, so you can attend or participate - there is no fee to come and partake, and you can stay for lunch or just to chat.


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## StevePickard (May 10, 2013)

Timberdoodle,
Thanks for the info!  I'll be seeing you at the tests. 
Steve


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## Timberdoodle (May 10, 2013)

Very god Steve!  Also, these test often fill up well before the closing date, so if you know you want to run your dog, get the app in early - you can always pull your entry before the closing date, and the HT Sec will keep a waitlist.


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## StevePickard (May 10, 2013)

Timberdoodle, I do understand.  That's the way it is with the Pointing Dog Hunt Tests also. Please put me on the list to send me the premium for your event.  I'll send you a PM with my address.
Steve


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## king killer delete (May 10, 2013)

Back in the day retreivers were required to do flushing test in AKC and NAHRA hunt test. Dogs were required to quarter and flush birds.  They were also required to do a trailing test on a downed bird.


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