# Does anyone else wonder how much longer we escape God's wrath.



## SemperFiDawg (Jun 22, 2014)

Today marked the first time an openly transgender priest "preached" in the National Cathedral to celebrate LGBT week.  The week before the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv flew the LGBT Rainbow Flag beneath the Stars and Stripes to show our Country's solidarity with their cause.  It was LGBT week in Israel.  

As a Nation I feel we have brought God's condemnation upon us and honestly can't say it isn't deserved.  It is.  I just wonder how long before we begin to reap what we have sown. Does anyone else wonder the same thing?


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## centerpin fan (Jun 22, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> As a Nation I feel we have brought God's condemnation upon us and honestly can't say it isn't deserved.  It is.  I just wonder how long before we begin to reap what we have sown. Does anyone else wonder the same thing?



When Israel disobeyed God, He gave them horrible kings.  We're in our sixth year of Obama ...


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## hobbs27 (Jun 22, 2014)

I think National condemnation went away with the Old Testament.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 22, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I think National condemnation went away with the Old Testament.



I think so too. I don't know why God would destroy a whole city or nation after the cross. We have the examples we need from the Old Testament to show how we should love and that we can't follow rules. We now have an advocate.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 22, 2014)

Deuteronomy 22:5 
“A woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God.

Galatians 3:28 
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

There is a difference between transgender and transsexual. Exactly when did Christian men & women start wearing each others clothes, hair styles, and jewelery? I can remember when it was strange to see a man with an ear bob or a school girl in pants. I sure miss the good ole days. 
I don't know why God has let it fester to the point it has unless he wants to see our reaction and how well we show love to each other. Maybe he wants to see how we explain that none of us are righteous and need Jesus. When witnessing one could point to a girl wearing pants and say "you are just as evil" or "and such was I" but I was washed and so can you be washed by the blood of Jesus.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 22, 2014)

Matthew 11:30
For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

This is the end of a story where people have abandoned the yoke of Jesus for other ways to salvation, idol or Law following. Both are wrong ways to salvation. Under the Old Covenant switching over to idol worship after knowing better was evil. Under the New Covenant switching back to Law keeping was evil as a way to gain righteousness and salvation. The former given as an example to the latter.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 22, 2014)

Matthew 11:20
20Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:

The first of the story.

They repented not meaning they didn't change their way of thinking. Even with proof from Jesus by his works they repented not. They still didn't believe Jesus could save them from their sins.

And for some really strange reason all some people get out of these verses, these examples of grace, these examples of how evil we are, these examples of why cities were destroyed, these sin lists, these examples of real repentance, these examples of our unrighteousness compared to these cities, is that we don't really need Jesus after all.
That we can somehow quit sinning and save ourselves. I must ask you law keepers, how well are you doing this self inflicted task? Comparing and realizing your sins are as evil as the dwellers of Sodom, how do you do it? What happens when you have lust in your heart or harbor anger? How do you justify such unrighteousness? But most of all, how will you explain to Jesus why you didn't replace your yoke with his, by repenting? You've seen his works, repent. Replace your yoke.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 23, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Deuteronomy 22:5
> “A woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God.
> 
> Galatians 3:28
> ...



You already answered above. Please refrain from wandering.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 23, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Matthew 11:30
> For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
> 
> This is the end of a story where people have abandoned the yoke of Jesus for other ways to salvation, idol or Law following. Both are wrong ways to salvation. Under the Old Covenant switching over to idol worship after knowing better was evil. Under the New Covenant switching back to Law keeping was evil as a way to gain righteousness and salvation. The former given as an example to the latter.



And again.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 23, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Matthew 11:20
> 20Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
> 
> The first of the story.
> ...



It was a simple question.  You already answered in post 4 when you agreed with Hobbs.

Again, could you please refrain from hijacking.

The OP was



> Today marked the first time an openly transgender priest "preached" in the National Cathedral to celebrate LGBT week. The week before the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv flew the LGBT Rainbow Flag beneath the Stars and Stripes to show our Country's solidarity with their cause. It was LGBT week in Israel.
> 
> As a Nation I feel we have brought God's condemnation upon us and honestly can't say it isn't deserved. It is. I just wonder how long before we begin to reap what we have sown. Does anyone else wonder the same thing?




Specifically this:



> *Does anyone else wonder the same thing?*



Not this



> Maybe he wants to see how we explain that none of us are righteous and need Jesus.



Nor this



> Under the New Covenant switching back to Law keeping was evil as a way to gain righteousness and salvation. The former given as an example to the latter.



Nor any of this



> They repented not meaning they didn't change their way of thinking. Even with proof from Jesus by his works they repented not. They still didn't believe Jesus could save them from their sins.
> 
> And for some really strange reason all some people get out of these verses, these examples of grace, these examples of how evil we are, these examples of why cities were destroyed, these sin lists, these examples of real repentance, these examples of our unrighteousness compared to these cities, is that we don't really need Jesus after all.
> That we can somehow quit sinning and save ourselves. I must ask you law keepers, how well are you doing this self inflicted task? Comparing and realizing your sins are as evil as the dwellers of Sodom, how do you do it? What happens when you have lust in your heart or harbor anger? How do you justify such unrighteousness? But most of all, how will you explain to Jesus why you didn't replace your yoke with his, by repenting? You've seen his works, repent. Replace your yoke.



is anywhere near addressing the topic in the OP.  It's just off topic rambling, personal conjecture, and babble. So again I ask that you refrain.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 23, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> It was a simple question.  You already answered in post 4 when you agreed with Hobbs.
> 
> Again, could you please refrain from hijacking.
> 
> is anywhere near addressing the topic in the OP.  It's just off topic rambling, personal conjecture, and babble. So again I ask that you refrain.



I see the connection but I will refrain.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 23, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I think National condemnation went away with the Old Testament.



Hobbs.  Without sidetracking into a predestination rabbit path, how can you square your above statement with the fact that if "national condemnation" ended in the OT, how do Preterist not only find it in the NT(in Revelations), but use it as the central thesis of their belief.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 23, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Today marked the first time an openly transgender priest "preached" in the National Cathedral to celebrate LGBT week.  The week before the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv flew the LGBT Rainbow Flag beneath the Stars and Stripes to show our Country's solidarity with their cause.  It was LGBT week in Israel.
> 
> As a Nation I feel we have brought God's condemnation upon us and honestly can't say it isn't deserved.  It is.  I just wonder how long before we begin to reap what we have sown. Does anyone else wonder the same thing?



1 Cor 10 9-11:
 “9 We should not test Christ, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. 10 And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel. 11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.”

1 Corinthians 10 5-8:
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. 7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

Paul is using Old Testament accounts as examples.

Matthew 5:44-45
44"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

I think these verses also addresses the OP.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 23, 2014)

Luke 17:28-30
28 Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot—they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, 29 but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all— 30 so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

I must confess that at some point after the cross God will or has destroyed cities or nations.


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## hawglips (Jun 23, 2014)

I also wonder how much longer we can escape the destruction brought on by wickedness.   Perhaps the Lord will wait till the burning that will occur prior to His 2nd Coming.   Perhaps there will be a continued uptick in misery as we ripen in sin.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 23, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> When Israel disobeyed God, He gave them horrible kings.  We're in our sixth year of Obama ...



Morally I see our "most recent"  decline as follows:

8 under BC marked by the death of absolutes (with particular regard to truth)

8 under Lil George treading water

8 under BO marked by

  1) An open and utter contempt for the Christian faith and a marked increase in the erosion of our national conscious.

  2) Regarding Foreign Policy: The beginning of a strategic national global repositioning from one that historically strongly favored Israel to another whose leaders are openly sworn to destroy Israel.

8 under HRC marked by .........(ain't gonna end well)


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 23, 2014)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by hobbs27
> I think National condemnation went away with the Old Testament.






Artfuldodger said:


> I think so too.






Artfuldodger said:


> I must confess that at some point after the cross God will or has destroyed cities or nations.



Way to stand with both feet planted firmly on both sides of the issue


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## hobbs27 (Jun 23, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Hobbs.  Without sidetracking into a predestination rabbit path, how can you square your above statement with the fact that if "national condemnation" ended in the OT, how do Preterist not only find it in the NT(in Revelations), but use it as the central thesis of their belief.



As you know, I believe the judgement spoken of in Revelation is about the judgement God brought on Jerusalem in 70ad.

 I don't believe the cross and resurrection ended fully the OT, because there was still a physical temple. For a span of 40 years there were two temples of God, the physical in Jerusalem and the spiritual within man. God done away with the physical temple, destroying it with fire and brimstone. IMO.

 I hope this answers your question, and I'm not saying all this to dispute anyone's belief, just explaining my own , Thanks .


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 23, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> As you know, I believe the judgement spoken of in Revelation is about the judgement God brought on Jerusalem in 70ad.
> 
> I don't believe the cross and resurrection ended fully the OT, because there was still a physical temple. For a span of 40 years there were two temples of God, the physical in Jerusalem and the spiritual within man. God done away with the physical temple, destroying it with fire and brimstone. IMO.
> 
> I hope this answers your question, and I'm not saying all this to dispute anyone's belief, just explaining my own , Thanks .



Thanks for the reply.  When exactly do you place the "end" of the OT?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 23, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Way to stand with both feet planted firmly on both sides of the issue



I wasn't counting the end of the world as when God destroyed individual cities and nations. But yes he will destroy all cities and nations and replace the earth with a new earth. 
He did destroy Jerusalem after the cross using Roman soldiers. 
You got me on this one. I stand corrected.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 23, 2014)

Hebrews 9:26
Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

I believe God destroyed Jerusalem and will destroy the earth but not for reasons of sin. There has been no destruction of any city or nation by God because of their sin after Jesus died on the cross. The cross took care of sin.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 23, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Thanks for the reply.  When exactly do you place the "end" of the OT?



At the destruction of the temple in 70 ad.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 24, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Today marked the first time an openly transgender priest "preached" in the National Cathedral to celebrate LGBT week.  The week before the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv flew the LGBT Rainbow Flag beneath the Stars and Stripes to show our Country's solidarity with their cause.  It was LGBT week in Israel.
> 
> As a Nation I feel we have brought God's condemnation upon us and honestly can't say it isn't deserved.  It is.  I just wonder how long before we begin to reap what we have sown. Does anyone else wonder the same thing?




The way I look at it is that the National Cathedral was ever an peculiar political institution of the state in the US and it was  not unlike the Jewish Temple as a place to hide many sins due to politics. It is perhaps a politico-spiritual embassy as a state temple to all our inner temples, the real ones.

 As a national institution the National Cathedral, seemed to make the US a christian community where national ideals and purposes could find anointing. Given enough patriotism it is easy to fall for this which is why I don't wonder "how long before we begin to reap what we have sown." "We" who have sown the Cathedral reap her ministrations accordingly.

I don't think we wait for wrath. I think we live in sin or we don't. I thank God for the Kingdom made plain by Jesus' ministry, which is my patriotism  and which demands it as not being my only love.

 So, I don't wonder about these things no ( delayed wrath). But it makes me wonder of the many different ways we perceive the authority of the church.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 24, 2014)

Some say our nation has always been evil by colonization and meeting the needs of our big businesses in their world ventures. That the US is OK with dictators or any kind of countries governments as long as our big companies can open factories in their countries and utilize cheap labor.
As I look back at our nation and it's people through the years, I think we have become less evil instead of more evil. 
In relation to sin, again I don't see how it matters after the cross. My sins are washed. 
I don't see the connection between evil nations and an openly transgendered priest "preaching" in the National Cathedral. 
Our nation is made up of cities, individuals and the government we elect.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 24, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> When Israel disobeyed God, He gave them horrible kings.  We're in our sixth year of Obama ...



Maybe so, but what came first disobeying or bad kings? So the fault lies with other than Obama? Since O is a result of disobeying.  So.. how did X disobey God? Who was X? A generation? A President? A political organization?  And when did X make this fatal mistake? Why?

If we could figure this out maybe we could repent for the right sin(s) instead of stabbing at the most recent leak in the roof?

Ideas?


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 24, 2014)

It's not a National per se "Institution".   In common terms it's an Episcopal Church, but also the Primatial  seat of the Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church per Wikipedia.

Interestingly I googled their membership and judging from what has been written on the subject, the entire church is on the verge of collapse.



> Episcopal Church Continues Downward Trend According to Report



Link: http://www.christianpost.com/news/e...es-downward-trend-according-to-report-107906/




> Why is the Episcopal Church near collapse?



Link: http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Hom...hy-is-the-Episcopal-church-near-collapse.aspx

From which comes this prescient quote:



> “The accelerating fragmentation of the strife-torn Episcopal Church USA,” writes Christian author Charlotte Allen. “ in which large parishes and entire dioceses are opting out of the church, isn’t simply about gay bishops, the blessing of same-sex unions or the election of a woman as presiding bishop. It is about the meltdown of liberal Christianity.



And this:



> “Liberal Christianity has been hailed by its boosters for 40 years as the future of the Christian church. Instead, as all but a few die-hards now admit, the mainline churches that have blurred doctrine and softened moral precepts are declining and, in the case of the Episcopal Church, disintegrating.”



It would seem reality doesn't match the motif that the media would have us believe.  There's not a day that goes by that we don't hear of another Church taking a liberal stance on homosexuality, same sex marriage, but  I can't recall a single reference or a headline about these same churches going extinct shortly afterward.


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## centerpin fan (Jun 24, 2014)

> Liberal Christianity has been hailed by its boosters for 40 years as the future of the Christian church. Instead, as all but a few die-hards now admit, the mainline churches that have blurred doctrine and softened moral precepts are declining and, in the case of the Episcopal Church, disintegrating.



Yep.  

Christianity is a better religion for Christians than Liberalism.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 24, 2014)

I don't believe that Church splits has brought God's condemnation on our nation.
I don't know how God views church splits but they have been splitting since the Church's inception, some for better and some for worse. We as individuals must decide to stay in a Church or start another when these things happen.
Christianity is better for everyone than religion.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 24, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't believe that Church splits has brought God's condemnation on our nation.
> I don't know how God views church splits but they have been splitting since the Church's inception, some for better and some for worse. We as individuals must decide to stay in a Church or start another when these things happen.



Off topic again.  This is not about church splits.  It hasn't been said nor implied that church splits have brought God's condemnation on our nation.  Please re-read the OP if you have any doubts as to what the topic is.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 24, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> Yep.
> 
> Christianity is a better religion for Christians than Liberalism.



Well said.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 24, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> It's not a National per se "Institution".   In common terms it's an Episcopal Church, but also the Primatial  seat of the Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church per Wikipedia.
> 
> Interestingly I googled their membership and judging from what has been written on the subject, the entire church is on the verge of collapse.
> 
> ...



Churches should do what they believe is right and not worry about trends or membership. If people quit going, so be it. You can't make decisions of what is right vs wrong based on money and membership. Even if the whole world is against you, you must do what is in your heart to prevail and take the right path.
I'd hate ot think a Church is making decisions based on public appeal regardless of how I personally feel about the topic.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 24, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> It's not a National per se "Institution".   In common terms it's an Episcopal Church, but also the Primatial  seat of the Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church per Wikipedia.
> 
> Interestingly I googled their membership and judging from what has been written on the subject, the entire church is on the verge of collapse.
> 
> ...



You are the one that brought up Church splits with this post. I tried to tie it back into the OP for you. You are somehow worried that their views will cause their members to leave or split. Somehow this is related to God punishing the United States as mentioned in the OP.
I would think it would do all of us more good to be more liberal in Christian views and less Legalistic. Jesus took care of the legal part for us. In return he asks of us, no less than our love and to help others. To not look at specific sinners in such a terrible way because we are equally as guilty without the righteousness of Jesus.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 24, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> You are the one that brought up Church splits with this post. I tried to tie it back into the OP for you. You are somehow worried that their views will cause their members to leave or split. Somehow this is related to God punishing the United States as mentioned in the OP.
> I would think it would do all of us more good to be more liberal in Christian views and less Legalistic. Jesus took care of the legal part for us. In return he asks of us, no less than our love and to help others. To not look at specific sinners in such a terrible way because we are equally as guilty without the righteousness of Jesus.



I respectfully ask yet again, that if you can't refrain from derailing this thread and stay on topic that you not post at all.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 24, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I respectfully ask yet again, that if you can't refrain from derailing this thread and stay on topic that you not post at all.



I'll refrain from talking about church splits but I'll never refrain from talking about how it is related to the cross.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 24, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> Maybe so, but what came first disobeying or bad kings? So the fault lies with other than Obama? Since O is a result of disobeying.  So.. how did X disobey God?



Which is exactly why I, in the OP, said this:



> As a Nation I feel we have brought God's condemnation upon us and honestly can't say it isn't deserved. It is.



They are voted in by us collectively and at least in part reflect our National Consciousness.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 24, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Which is exactly why I, in the OP, said this:
> 
> 
> 
> They are voted in by us collectively and at least in part reflect our National Consciousness.




Interesting.  Then my hackles start to get up  for the consciousness of the voters who put in President Polk.


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## Day trip (Jun 24, 2014)

I don't think God is likely to judge and condemn a whole nation based upon the opinions and acts of some of the people.  If the United States thrives or falls apart then it is likely to make times better or worse for individuals  respectively but these are human institutions.  Completely insignificant compared to the kingdom of Heaven.  The best that I can do is to Love God and to love my neighbor.  Then with faith, know that anything put on my plate has been set there to give me an opportunity to grow.  Good people may suffer collateral damage because our country is failing to abide by the teaching of Christ but I don't remember ever being promised a life of ease and luxury.  I have met very few people that when removed from a group (such as whites, blacks, Latinos, gays, etc)  I can honestly say that I don't like or respect them, even if I disagree with them.  If we stop judging, treat people as individuals and follow Christ's example, we will be fine.  Have faith in that.  What else do you need besides food, clothes and shelter?  Remember that Jesus died on the cross with all the power of the almighty in his pocket, unused because he had faith in God. Not in his own flesh.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 24, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> Interesting.  Then my hackles start to get up  for the consciousness of the voters who put in President Polk.



Scratching my head on that one.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 24, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> Interesting.  Then my hackles start to get up  for the consciousness of the voters who put in President Polk.



It's time to let that one go....consider forgiveness.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 24, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> It's time to let that one go....consider forgiveness.




 You probably have a good point. I forgive the voters who elected President Polk.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 24, 2014)

I'm pretty sure Jesus' death satisfied God's wrath. Paul has reminded us with examples that judging by us is unjust wrath. 

People discussing both sides of God's wrath:

realize that God is acting mercifully and with no respect for anyone’s particular way of life, you might come to see that we’re the ones doing the overwhelming majority of the judgment, and that it’s our unjust wrath that Jesus unravels by doing the will of the Father and being extended as salvation even to the gentiles.

But we like our unjust wrath. We want to pretend that it’s God’s just wrath against sin, and that we’re justified in holding on to it. And so we wink at Paul and turn God’s grace into the appeasement of an angry deity. And in the process we divide God against God.

http://theologyoutofbounds.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/did-jesus-death-satisfy-gods-wrath/


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## hobbs27 (Jun 24, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm pretty sure Jesus' death satisfied God's wrath. Paul has reminded us with examples that judging by us is unjust wrath.
> 
> People discussing both sides of God's wrath:
> 
> ...



Lots of wrath prophecy in Matthew 24 that hadnt been fulfilled at the death or resurrection.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 24, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> You probably have a good point. I forgive the voters who elected President Polk.



Im so glad ....


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 24, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Lots of wrath prophecy in Matthew 24 that hadnt been fulfilled at the death or resurrection.



Was the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD prophesied by Jesus caused by the wrath of God? 
If God's wrath wasn't fulfilled by the cross was it fulfilled when the New Covenant started at 70AD? 

I hope we are still on topic as God's wrath is the topic of the OP. We must define if God's wrath is still in affect to determine if we've reached God's breaking point.

The following verses are related to how Jesus viewed a city that didn't welcome visitors. This was the main thing Sodom was guilty of. God destroyed the town and Jesus moved on. Jesus changed everything or at least some things as related to God's wrath.

Luke 9:53-56 And the town did not receive him, because he was headed to Jerusalem. And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elisha did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, “Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.” For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 24, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Lots of wrath prophecy in Matthew 24 that hadnt been fulfilled at the death or resurrection.



But let me guess.  Is was by 70 AD when all prophecy was fulfilled.  Well that sounds like Preterism.  Where have I heard that term before?

Consider your and Arts complete derailment and hijacking of this thread into a completely different topic complete.  

Maybe you've noticed the almost complete lack of involvement on this forum lately.  You think maybe this type of behavior from you two has anything to do with it?Just food for thought.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 24, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Lots of wrath prophecy in Matthew 24 that hadnt been fulfilled at the death or resurrection.



Hobbs check this out:

What I am about to explain will likely be foreign to many of my readers, but it is not foreign to orthodox teaching and Church history. In brief:

    The cross of Christ had nothing to do with the wrath of God.
    God’s wrath was connected to the Old Covenant.
    The Old Covenant coexisted with the New Covenant during the New Testament (see Heb. 8:13).
    The Old Covenant was removed by the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, as described in Revelation and Matthew 24 (and as we’ve already discussed in this book).
    Revelation 15:1 and First Thessalonians 2:16 indicate that AD 70 was the complete removal of God’s wrath with the passing away of the law.

God’s Wrath and the Old Covenant

The first thing we must recognize is that the crucifixion of Christ did nothing to assuage the wrath of God. Jesus was not the Father’s “wrath sponge” soaking up His anger toward sin on the cross. Although it is a popular notion, we have absolutely no indication of this in Scripture.1 The reality of what Christ did on the cross was that He operated as a perfect lamb sacrifice, thus creating a brand new covenant through which the Father could forgive sin once and for all. The cross was not the punishment of sin; the cross made a way for the Father to forgive sin. God did not punish our debt of sin; He forgave our debt of sin through the perfect sacrifice. No lamb sacrifice was ever punished for sin. Rather, the lamb’s death simply enacted covenantal forgiveness. The animal merely stood between the owner and God, and its shed blood brought covenantal forgiveness. Jesus, the perfect lamb, released perfect forgiveness (see Heb. 8:6–13).

Considering that no Scriptures point to God’s wrath being poured out at the cross, we must consider another question: What do we understand from the New Testament regarding the wrath of God? By studying every passage on wrath in the New Testament, I found that wrath is connected to the Law (the Old Covenant). This is seen very clearly, for example, in Romans 4:15, which says, “For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.”

Clearly, the wrath of God is an Old Covenant Law-based concept. When wrath is mentioned in the New Testament, it is consistently used to point to the coming destruction of Jerusalem, the final outpouring of God’s wrath. For example, in Matthew 3:7 and Luke 3:7, John the Baptist rebukes the Pharisees and speaks of their future destruction in AD 70, saying that the axe is already laid to the root and they won’t be saved by claiming Abraham as their father. He goes on to say of AD 70, “Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?” Similarly, in Luke 21:23, Jesus speaks of the AD 70 massacre of Jerusalem and refers to it as the great distress and the “wrath upon the people.”

Thus, we can see that the wrath of God was not poured out on the cross, but it was poured out at the destruction of Jerusalem.

http://forum.gon.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=8749502


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 24, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> But let me guess.  Is was by 70 AD when all prophecy was fulfilled.  Well that sounds like Preterism.  Where have I heard that term before?
> 
> Consider your and Arts complete derailment and hijacking of this thread into a completely different topic complete.
> 
> Maybe you've noticed the almost complete lack of involvement on this forum lately.  You think maybe this type of behavior from you two has anything to do with it?Just food for thought.



I'm sorry if you view others beliefs as derailment. I didn't know you were looking for a poll instead of a discussion. If you don't want or feel you can increase your own beliefs by looking at others then perhaps you should look at joining some type of other forum associated with the same answers you are looking for. I ask not that you agree with me but just allow me to voice my beliefs. 
Again I feel it is related as we must establish if God's wrath is still in affect and to what extent.

The forum always gets slow during the summer and during the hunting season as  this is the primary purpose of this forum. I don't consider the slow responses a reflection of Hobbs or myself. If only one other person will discuss Jesus with me I'm satisfied. Maybe an on-looker will learn something perhaps even if I'm wrong.
I welcome and honor your participation into these discussions and wished you felt the same. I understand that you don't but I still welcome you and all from every walk of life and faith persuasion. Even lack of faith persuasion as it strengthens my faith.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 25, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm sorry if you view others beliefs as derailment.



Let's start with the truth shall we.
It's not your beliefs I have a problem with.  Maybe I haven't mentioned it before, but it's the hijacking and changing the topic that I have a problem with.




Artfuldodger said:


> I didn't know you were looking for a poll instead of a discussion.



It was a very simple, narrowly worded question that followed a brief introduction.  Did not realize you would have such a problem comprehending it, but again, I don't think you did.



Artfuldodger said:


> If you don't want or feel you can increase your own beliefs by looking at others then perhaps you should look at joining some type of other forum associated with the same answers you are looking for.



As usual this has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand.



Artfuldodger said:


> I ask not that you agree with me but just allow me to voice my beliefs.



Which you are perfectly free to do here by starting any thread you wish and rambling till your little heart is content.  



Artfuldodger said:


> Again I feel it is related as we must establish if God's wrath is still in affect and to what extent.



Which should have gone in a separate thread.  It was not the topic of this one, but it's not like this wasn't pointed out to you repeatedly.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 25, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Let's start with the truth shall we.
> It's not your beliefs I have a problem with.  Maybe I haven't mentioned it before, but it's the hijacking and changing the topic that I have a problem with.
> 
> It was a very simple, narrowly worded question that followed a brief introduction.  Did not realize you would have such a problem comprehending it, but again, I don't think you did.
> ...



Your points will be taken seriously by me, I've just never been asked to participate in such as narrow discussion. 

So your question is:
As a Nation I feel we have brought God's condemnation upon us and honestly can't say it isn't deserved. It is. I just wonder how long before we begin to reap what we have sown. Does anyone else wonder the same thing? 

Can we discuss "why" we wonder or don't wonder or do you just want to know  if we wonder "when" we will reap God' wrath? 
Could you elaborate a little more as to why you wonder, or when and how we'll reap the wrath of God as a nation or institution? Maybe some Bible verses, comparisions, list of reasons of why this wrath is warranted now instead of say 300 years ago. There must be something really big that makes you feel we will recieve God's wrath? Our selfishness, disobedience to God, not helping sick people, not welcoming strangers or is your wonder related to the LGBT preachers?
What or how are you tying in the collapse of the Episcopal Church?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 25, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> But let me guess.  Is was by 70 AD when all prophecy was fulfilled.  Well that sounds like Preterism.  Where have I heard that term before?
> 
> Consider your and Arts complete derailment and hijacking of this thread into a completely different topic complete.
> 
> Maybe you've noticed the almost complete lack of involvement on this forum lately.  You think maybe this type of behavior from you two has anything to do with it?Just food for thought.



Hobbs and myself differ on many beliefs yet we enjoy each others discussions. Hobbs is more in line with your views about homosexuality. Hobbs being a Preterist will present his answers in that direction because it makes up a big part of who he is. You can't take that away from him and asking him not to bring it into discussions is wrong. It would be like asking Gem to not bring up God is controlling everything because of his predestination beliefs. 

As for as my or Hobb's behavior on this forum, I haven't seen anyone else reprimand us for taking threads off topic. I think we are all guilty of that. I do try to bring all threads back on topic unless the individuals want it to go into a new direction. When the person starting the thread ask I always oblige. With you I just don't think I'll ever oblige no matter how hard I try to stay on topic.
I'm still having trouble comprehending just how narrow you are willing to discuss this topic.

This was a question you asked so while not on topic, I wanted to continue my answer and get more input on what you actually want to discuss.


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## formula1 (Jun 25, 2014)

*Re:*

Ok folks, in my short tenure as moderator, I have not had a need to reprimand anyone concerning their posts and I do not want to start now (Please).  Open discussion in this forum is important to maintain.   Yet I am aware there is a lot of thread hijacking going on here.  

But even in that I would ask:
1) SemperFiDawg - I understand your issue, but give grace according to that you received and add a lot of thick skin. You'll always need it, not just here but everywhere.
2) Everyone - You might learn to listen a bit more than  go on a posting parade.  Those who listen more and speak less tend to have a better relationship with God as well and they tend not to be lead astray.  Your life should be producing God's righteousness and that is the mirror you should look into!

James 1
19 Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger; 20 for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God.

And if any would care to read further in this passage, you might find that 'doing' the word just might be more beneficial to all!

And if one must hear themselves speak, start your own post. Perhaps someone will listen!

Ok, I've had my say!  But I will take action if needed.  God Bless!


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 25, 2014)

formula1 said:


> Ok folks, in my short tenure as moderator, I have not had a need to reprimand anyone concerning their posts and I do not want to start now (Please).  Open discussion in this forum is important to maintain.   Yet I am aware there is a lot of thread hijacking going on here.
> 
> But even in that I would ask:
> 1) SemperFiDawg - I understand your issue, but give grace according to that you received and add a lot of thick skin. You'll always need it, not just here but everywhere.
> ...



Good advice and reminder, I'll work on doing more listening. I'm like a reformed smoker, I've gone from one form of salvation belief to another. I do agree there is a balance even between the two forms.
Hopefully this will be my last post on this thread as I feel it would be a good place for me to just listen.


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## JB0704 (Jun 25, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> You think maybe this type of behavior from you two has anything to do with it?



 (and apologies upfront)

When I joined this forum, every single thread was derailed, and every day brought on a new discussion which ended up chasing rabbits all over creation.  Predes came into most of them.  Preterism wasn't discussed as much back then.  One thing is static......any thread having any mention of gay folks will get derailed.  

The very first thread I posted on here was my thoughts on allowing gay folks to serve in church.  It was a fantastic thread with spirited debate from several well intentioned people.  It went on for a few days.  Then, somebody came in and posted a ridiculous insulting comment about how they "could not believe they just wasted their time reading this entire thread......" (thus, extending their misery with such a post).  So, I deleted it.  Interstingly, I get along well with that poster now, thoguh I was insulted at the time, being new to internet forums and all.

On topic:

Do you think this country has ever been more evil than today?  If no, is that specifically because of the rapidly advancing gay agenda?


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 25, 2014)

formula1 said:


> Ok folks, in my short tenure as moderator, I have not had a need to reprimand anyone concerning their posts and I do not want to start now (Please).  Open discussion in this forum is important to maintain.   Yet I am aware there is a lot of thread hijacking going on here.
> 
> But even in that I would ask:
> 1) SemperFiDawg - I understand your issue, but give grace according to that you received and add a lot of thick skin. You'll always need it, not just here but everywhere.
> ...



Thanks f1.  Have always respected your advise and will definitely take heed of it.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 25, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> (and apologies upfront)
> 
> When I joined this forum, every single thread was derailed, and every day brought on a new discussion which ended up chasing rabbits all over creation.  Predes came into most of them.  Preterism wasn't discussed as much back then.  One thing is static......any thread having any mention of gay folks will get derailed.
> 
> ...




I don't think it's never been more evil than it is today.  I don't attribute the advancing gay agenda as the cause, but rather a symptom, along with many others(loss of any respect for the  sanctity of life comes to mind).  I think the base cause is a collective rejection of God and the Christian based principles that held the society together for so long.  Of course this all starts on the individual level.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 25, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Today marked the first time an openly transgender priest "preached" in the National Cathedral to celebrate LGBT week.  The week before the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv flew the LGBT Rainbow Flag beneath the Stars and Stripes to show our Country's solidarity with their cause.  It was LGBT week in Israel.
> 
> As a Nation I feel we have brought God's condemnation upon us and honestly can't say it isn't deserved.  It is.  I just wonder how long before we begin to reap what we have sown. Does anyone else wonder the same thing?


SF, how are we not reaping now? I see reaping in your first paragraph.


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## JB0704 (Jun 25, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I think the base cause is a collective rejection of God and the Christian based principles that held the society together for so long.  Of course this all starts on the individual level.



Yes.  It starts with the individual, and I believe God generally deals with us on that level as well.  

As far as a rejection of Christian principles, I don't think there's a whole lot about Christianity that is a "tough sell" if a person believes in God.  The issue, in many cases, is a rebellion against the hypocracy people witnessed through the generations.....we can go back to our founding and discuss slavery and indians, over zealous politicians and laws (there's a good bit to discuss on that front), preachers condemning the world, parents spanking their children for not getting memory verses correct, etc......and, when people begin to rebel they start rethinking the premise (God's existence).

Once a person loses their religion, they have faith, then when they lose their faith, they are left with their own morality to guide them.  Generally speaking, a person with gay tendencies will act upon those tendencies whether they believe in God or not, I know of very few cases where such is not the case.  I think it's just more in the open now than in previous generations, but it has existed for a very, very long time.  

But, Christianity is about grace, love redemption.  If you scare a person into adhering to a certain code, has that person repented?  Do they recognize that the action was wrong, or do they simply refuse to commit the action to avoid the consequence?  What is gained in those circumstances?

The reason I am asking is that I don't know if attacking symptoms has any real benefits at all where there is no victim.   I think, if we believe we are headed in the wrong direction, then we should focus on what the central message of the system is.....and let the Holy Spirit do it's work from there.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 25, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> SF, how are we not reaping now? I see reaping in your first paragraph.



Gem I think we are reaping somewhat in that we are suffering from the immediate consequences of our sins.  You don't need me to point out the effects of the disintegration of the traditional family, nor the effects of the total disregard of the sanctity of life.   So in one aspect we are reaping, but personally I think God will eventually dispense His personal justice on a National level.  It may be that foretold of in Revelation or it could come before then, but I don't see him turning a blind eye to our collective headlong rush into hedonism.


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## Israel (Jun 26, 2014)

A sick man may feel fine the day after infection, and even look well, too.
Eventually, though, he will feel its effects. Eventually he will show its effects. He may even try to carry on.
As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the son of man be lifted up.
Nobody dies of snakebite the first second after.
A man who looks, knowing he needs healing, is healed.
Such a man may then be given other things to see, to look upon. Such a man might even see this.

For the _wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men_ who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.…

All rebellion leads to degradation. 
The great physician is also a great diagnostician.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 26, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I don't think it's never been more evil than it is today.  I don't attribute the advancing gay agenda as the cause, but rather a symptom, along with many others(loss of any respect for the  sanctity of life comes to mind).  I think the base cause is a collective rejection of God and the Christian based principles that held the society together for so long.  Of course this all starts on the individual level.



I bet I could match every sin you see today, with every sin I have seen from yesterday. They might be different, many are, but still events unnatural to Christians. Perhaps we could allow a force-power number to different sins, whereby some sins had more powers than others and count them in this way so that sins present and sins past although different would have the same spiritual intensity.

For examples: Abortions score 10. Killing babies in war score-----. What score would one place on babies killed in war time especially that often when babies are killed in war time sisters and brother are also killed and mothers, etc... Which of these has a greater spiritual consequence... long term.


Who has the greater sin score a powerful christian man who has a wife and concubines vs a non christian... or secret homosexuality vs open homosexuality.

How about scoring hawks and doves, past and present. What score to hawks vs doves from a christian perspective.

What score to women with long dresses vs women in short pants.

----------------- 

 Can I suggest that the high power sin score is that which dehumanizes a person or deems to get them to the level of creatures and undeserving of charity. Perhaps.

Now the issue of national decline as wrath might be because the self-righteous   point to sinners with  the end of a walking stick rather than running missions with zeal. And this is the basic sin of a christian nation: Has the Good News lost its salt to the extent that we can recline to being as were the prophets and warners before the cross.

No answer or response to this post required, it being off topic.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 26, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I don't think it's never been more evil than it is today.



A person really just needs to look back a little to see we are much better off today because of the kingdom.

Ernest Hampden-Cook  wrote in his book ( The Christ Has Come) published 1895.
 The fact is that bad as the world still is, yet morally it is a vastly better world than it was when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea. It is said for example that at the present time there are not anywhere on the earth outside of Christendom ten square miles where the life of a man or the honour of a woman is safe. But this, which is now true of only part of the world , was probably true 1860 years ago, of the whole world.

 Now for Israel and Gordon : enjoy this one by Matthew Arnold , Obermann once more.

_"Perceiv'st thou not the change of a day?
     Ah, carry back thy ken !
 What, some two thousand years! Survey
 The world as it was then !

" like ours it look'd in outward air.
 It's head was clear and true,
Sumptuous its clothing, rich it's fare,
No pause its action knew.

" Stout was its arm, each thew and bone 
Seemed puissant and alive-
But , ah, its heart, its heart was stone,
And so it could not thrive !

" On that hard Pagan world disgust
 And secret loathing fell.
Deep weariness and sated lust
Made human life a he11"_


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## gordon 2 (Jun 26, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> A person really just needs to look back a little to see we are much better off today because of the kingdom.
> 
> Ernest Hampden-Cook  wrote in his book ( The Christ Has Come) published 1895.
> The fact is that bad as the world still is, yet morally it is a vastly better world than it was when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea. It is said for example that at the present time there are not anywhere on the earth outside of Christendom ten square miles where the life of a man or the honour of a woman is safe. But this, which is now true of only part of the world , was probably true 1860 years ago, of the whole world.
> ...



I also view that we are better off today than say just 20 yrs ago. The hearts of many has been softened from what they were back then.

I think people today have a better appreciation of justice  than in the past, even the recent past. Although they still find it difficult to put in practice and make it practical.

It was when some, many even, Christians  believed  that their Kingdom was only for the future, but many Chrisitans today see its practical importance in their `hear and now``.

In todays world, due to world wide mass medias and social networks--the internet-- it is hard for nations to hide their sinful behaviors both internally and in their dealing outside their borders. When Christians all over the world, but especially those elected in part for their Christian outlook, or elected for the support of the Christian communities they sought support from, and then put national or regional political interests ahead of their communion in Christ--Houston we have a problem.

Also darn good poem!


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 26, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> Yes.  It starts with the individual, and I believe God generally deals with us on that level as well.
> 
> As far as a rejection of Christian principles, I don't think there's a whole lot about Christianity that is a "tough sell" if a person believes in God.  The issue, in many cases, is a rebellion against the hypocracy people witnessed through the generations.....we can go back to our founding and discuss slavery and indians, over zealous politicians and laws (there's a good bit to discuss on that front), preachers condemning the world, parents spanking their children for not getting memory verses correct, etc......and, when people begin to rebel they start rethinking the premise (God's existence).
> 
> ...



Agree with every point you made, except as noted below.  I would note that while some do reject Christianity because of perceived hypocrisy, many more reject the message because they want to pursue a hedonistic lifestyle.  I think this latter group is overwhelmingly representative of our current National Conscious.

Not sure I understand your point regarding "no real victim".


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## JB0704 (Jun 26, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Agree with every point you made, except as noted below.  I would note that while some do reject Christianity because of perceived hypocrisy, many more reject the message because they want to pursue a hedonistic lifestyle.  I think this latter group is overwhelmingly representative of our current National Conscious.



Perhaps those that reject faith to do as they please do so in an effort to lead a guilt-free lifestyle.  I dunno.  When I tried to walk away from the faith it was an absolute rebellion against the system, not for the sake of the rules, but because of how they were applied in the circles I was familiar with.  Glad I was able to get beyond a lot of stuff, and come back to my faith. 

One thing I am certain of, is that the "rules" are broken by all of us.  Christians, heathens, etc.  We all tend to fail in fights with our physical nature.  Consider Paul's difficulties in Romans 7:15.  Even a spiritual giant like him was guilty of this.  It's an internal, and personal fight.  That does not justify it, at all, but it adds perspective to how long people have been dealing with the conflicts that are created by living a Christian lifestyle.



SemperFiDawg said:


> Not sure I understand your point regarding "no real victim".



My bad, I was speaking in the context of law and forced coersion trying to cover all bases.  My belief is that if there is not a victim to protect, I do not believe there should be force to prevent the act.  I think a person should choose righteousness.  If they do not, righteousness is not achieved whether they are living right or not.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 26, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> Generally speaking, a person with gay tendencies will act upon those tendencies whether they believe in God or not, I know of very few cases where such is not the case.



JB.  Sorry for the piecemeal replies.  It's a reflection of how my day is going.

I do agree with this statement to a point.  I think it is more true today than years ago and I attribute it to homosexuality being openly accepted today.  It seems to me that once society as a whole rejects God's precepts and 
accepts secular ones instead, more people who would not have participated before hand now are much more inclined to do so.  

Divorce, adultery, any sex outside of marriage were all as recently as 50-60 years ago, highly frowned upon.  As a result, while some engaged in it, they certainly didn't represent the majority. Today we can't say that.  Sex outside of marriage is the norm.  It's even expected by most and taken as a given.  Why.  Because once it became acceptable it quickly became normative.

In short, it's much more probable for a person with homosexual tendencies to act on them when society accepts it and even expects them too, than when society 
expects them not to.

Personally I believe we are all predisposed to various sins, but having a predisposition is not the same as having a license to act on that sin.  I'm married, and I may have a predisposition to be attracted to other women, but that predisposition doesn't justify my acting on it.  To do so would be a sin.  

What we are doing with homosexuality is the same thing we have done with sex outside of marriage.  We have bought into and reinforced the idea that because we have a predisposition toward something it is natural, and therefore must be OK.

What we have rejected is the precept that God gave us that says what we are predisposed to is sin and sin is not natural.  It is to be rejected, not embraced.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 26, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> Perhaps those that reject faith to do as they please do so in an effort to lead a guilt-free lifestyle.  I dunno.  When I tried to walk away from the faith it was an absolute rebellion against the system, not for the sake of the rules, but because of how they were applied in the circles I was familiar with.  Glad I was able to get beyond a lot of stuff, and come back to my faith.
> 
> One thing I am certain of, is that the "rules" are broken by all of us.  Christians, heathens, etc.  We all tend to fail in fights with our physical nature.  Consider Paul's difficulties in Romans 7:15.  Even a spiritual giant like him was guilty of this.  It's an internal, and personal fight.  That does not justify it, at all, but it adds perspective to how long people have been dealing with the conflicts that are created by living a Christian lifestyle.



That's why I said "perceived hypocrisy".  Folks outside the church think Christians should be perfect, and that's just not true. (Like you said Paul wasn't.  He acknowledged he was a hypocrite.). But in many cases it's because people in the church broadcast that perception.





JB0704 said:


> My bad, I was speaking in the context of law and forced coersion trying to cover all bases.  My belief is that if there is not a victim to protect, I do not believe there should be force to prevent the act.  I think a person should choose righteousness.  If they do not, righteousness is not achieved whether they are living right or not.



Agreed.


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## groundhawg (Jun 26, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Gem I think we are reaping somewhat in that we are suffering from the immediate consequences of our sins.  You don't need me to point out the effects of the disintegration of the traditional family, nor the effects of the total disregard of the sanctity of life.   So in one aspect we are reaping, but personally I think God will eventually dispense His personal justice on a National level.  It may be that foretold of in Revelation or it could come before then, but I don't see him turning a blind eye to our collective headlong rush into hedonism.



Well spoken.  Thanks


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## 04ctd (Jun 26, 2014)

they have the news on (is FOX really news?) in the gym I visit.

one phrase keeps repeating in my mind "it has become EXPECTED and ACCEPTED to Lie to the American Public."

in other words, no matter what happens, people bury their head in the sand and say "it wont affect me, doesn't apply me"

and that is how society falls apart: the leaders lie cheat & steal, the people don't care, and it just gets worse.


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## Israel (Jun 26, 2014)

All rebellion is reactionary. The soul informed may eventually grow weary of having to say "I believe it's more aqua" when confronted with the statement "the sky is blue". 
The justifications given to rationalize rebellion are legion and well reasoned, nevertheless, the Lord sees the principle at work. Were he to leave us there, in the place where we can never take "yes" for an answer, we are all lost according to our own will. 

But, he has not left us lost there. 
He has come right into it, even in a body that in every way, as our own, would testify of being alone and separate, yet holding to a truth unseen...and keeping that "principle" as its life "nevertheless, I AM NOT ALONE."

We may, at times, seek to identify by those things to which we stand in opposition. For there is an opposing of which we become painfully aware. But again, if left there, our thinking tends to form itself around the "againsts" and thus protestantism earned a name. 
But again, the soul wearies of its reactionary meanderings.
We are saved, not as much by the One who set his face like a flint to oppose all the world, as much as that is true...but by the reality of the life that is of God, and FOR God.
The seeking and knocking and asking often finds its impetus in the rightly felt experience of this life of God...not in determining itself by what it must be against, but the seeking of what is, and eternally is.
Before rebellion, and after it, before sin, and after it, before the world, and after it...God. Not struggling against anything to "be"...but who just and always has been, is, and always will be.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 26, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> Perhaps those that reject faith to do as they please do so in an effort to lead a guilt-free lifestyle.  I dunno.  When I tried to walk away from the faith it was an absolute rebellion against the system, not for the sake of the rules, but because of how they were applied in the circles I was familiar with.  Glad I was able to get beyond a lot of stuff, and come back to my faith.
> 
> One thing I am certain of, is that the "rules" are broken by all of us.  Christians, heathens, etc.  We all tend to fail in fights with our physical nature.  Consider Paul's difficulties in Romans 7:15.  Even a spiritual giant like him was guilty of this.  It's an internal, and personal fight.  That does not justify it, at all, but it adds perspective to how long people have been dealing with the conflicts that are created by living a Christian lifestyle.
> 
> ...





> That does not justify it, at all, but it adds perspective to how long people have been dealing with the conflicts that are created by living a Christian lifestyle.


JB that's a VERY insightful statement.
As far as this whole gay subject - anybody I know, including myself and most everything I read, view this subject simply as a matter of EQUAL RIGHTS. 
No more, no less.
Its not about rejecting God, not about wanting to live a hedonistic lifestyle and its not about Christians.
Its about equal rights, life liberty and the pursuit of happiness, its about fairness, its about being better, its about believing that even people you don't agree with deserve the same rights as anybody else. Its about living in the United Sates of America.
It just so happens that on this particular subject this comes into play because of what the Bible says -


> dealing with the conflicts that are created by living a Christian lifestyle.


Its why there is the separation of church and state.
Society is saying loud and clear that EVERY American deserves equal rights.
Whether we agree with their lifestyle or not.
If Christianity doesn't support that, I think society is obviously saying.... well sorry.
Maybe that's a symptom of being American and not a symptom of anything else?

And I purposely avoided the topic of LGBT preachers etc.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 26, 2014)

Unfortunately it's not about equal rights.  It may be guised as such.  It may have even started out as such, but it's certainly not about that now.

If 



> its about believing that even people you don't agree with deserve the same rights as anybody else.



,then why when a Christian openly espouses their Biblical belief that homosexuality is an abomination before God, they are charged by the LGBT crowd as a hate monger and they do everything in their power to not only  silence but also destroy that person (see Brendon Eich and Benham brothers as the two most recent examples)

It's because in truth the slogan "tolerance and inclusiveness" really means silencing you so that my voice is the only one in the room.  You lose your right to express your beliefs, but I retain mine.

If it really was about equal rights they would adopt the stance that every other group that truely supports equal rights adopts:

"I vehemently disagree with what you believe and espouse, but I just as vigorously support your right to do so.

But again, that's not the attitude we see from the LGBT crowd so to pretend its about EQUAL RIGHTS is either being unrealistic or dishonest.


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## oldfella1962 (Jun 26, 2014)

Define "Gods Wrath" please. Mass destruction? One huge example would be I guess that big comet hitting The Yucatan and wiping out the dinosaurs - their pea-brains can't conceive of "sin" so what does that tell you? Two things in my mind:

1. we as humans don't manage or predict the universe, because it doesn't revolve around our species, let alone any one religion out of many religions. 

2. when things happen they happen - but then the survivors try to explain the reason why.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 27, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Unfortunately it's not about equal rights.  It may be guised as such.  It may have even started out as such, but it's certainly not about that now.
> 
> If
> 
> ...


My post is very obviously about society's over all point of view.
And that is about equal rights. 
Again, no more, no less.
JB, whether intentional or not, hit the nail square on the head when he said -


> but it adds perspective to how long people have been dealing with the conflicts that are created by living a Christian lifestyle.


Just own up to it and quit blaming "them" for the conflicts your religion creates for you.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 27, 2014)

oldfella1962 said:


> Define "Gods Wrath" please. Mass destruction?.



Something along that line.


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## Israel (Jun 27, 2014)

In truth, the christian does enter many conflicts in his faith in peace. Finding that place where liberty is not dependent upon the encroachment of another's is the threading of the needle for the soul.
At the same time, perhaps singularly, the christian knows none of us exist in a vacuum, cause and effect, behavior and consequences, in both Adam, and Jesus the Christ should be plainly manifest to the disciple. The infection of one to all, and the healing by one for all is plainly presented before the seeker's sight.
The over reaching of some should always be a lesson to one. Just as God didn't slap the fruit from Adam's lips, when he easily could have, the christian may learn it is also not in his purview to prevent the other from learning whatever lessons need be learned in the dreadful pursuit of sorrow. Those lessons, are in God's hands.
What the christian has, until head be separated from body, is a functioning mouth. And if, by the grace of God, one may find words not their own, even another may be persuaded in the fear of the Lord, there is grace to put that down, comforts abundant to calm your souls lusts, you needn't continue to eat what is killing you.
One may say, "I harm no other, what I do affects no one but me."
That is what blind people say. That could even be what some would say to the seven year old hemophiliac who died by receiving tainted blood.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 27, 2014)

Israel said:


> In truth, the christian does enter many conflicts in his faith in peace. Finding that place where liberty is not dependent upon the encroachment of another's is the threading of the needle for the soul.
> At the same time, perhaps singularly, the christian knows none of us exist in a vacuum, cause and effect, behavior and consequences, in both Adam, and Jesus the Christ should be plainly manifest to the disciple. The infection of one to all, and the healing by one for all is plainly presented before the seeker's sight.
> The over reaching of some should always be a lesson to one. Just as God didn't slap the fruit from Adam's lips, when he easily could have, the christian may learn it is also not in his purview to prevent the other from learning whatever lessons need be learned in the dreadful pursuit of sorrow. Those lessons, are in God's hands.
> What the christian has, until head be separated from body, is a functioning mouth. And if, by the grace of God, one may find words not their own, even another may be persuaded in the fear of the Lord, there is grace to put that down, comforts abundant to calm your souls lusts, you needn't continue to eat what is killing you.
> ...





> Finding that place where liberty is not dependent upon the encroachment of another's is the threading of the needle for the soul.


Yes. That is a powerful statement that applies (or should apply) across the board.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 27, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> My post is very obviously about society's over all point of view.
> And that is about equal rights.
> Again, no more, no less.
> JB, whether intentional or not, hit the nail square on the head when he said -
> ...



I don't blame anyone.  This is my perspective. 

“I am made out of flesh, sold into sin’s power. 15 For I do not understand what I am doing, because I do not practice what I want to do, but I do what I hate. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 So now I am no longer the one doing it, but it is sin liv“living in me. 18 For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it. 19 For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me. 21 So I discover this principle: When I want to do what is good, evil is with me. 22 For in my inner self I joyfully agree with God’s law. 23 But I see a different law in the parts of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this dying body? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I myself am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh, to the law of sin"

The problem is in me.  The only solution is in The grace of God through Christ.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 27, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I don't blame anyone.  This is my perspective.
> 
> “I am made out of flesh, sold into sin’s power. 15 For I do not understand what I am doing, because I do not practice what I want to do, but I do what I hate. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 So now I am no longer the one doing it, but it is sin liv“living in me. 18 For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it. 19 For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me. 21 So I discover this principle: When I want to do what is good, evil is with me. 22 For in my inner self I joyfully agree with God’s law. 23 But I see a different law in the parts of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this dying body? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I myself am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh, to the law of sin"
> 
> The problem is in me.  The only solution is in The grace of God through Christ.


The world would be a much better place if we all looked in a lot more than we looked out.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 27, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> The world would be a much better place if we all looked in a lot more than we looked out.



Agreed


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## JB0704 (Jun 27, 2014)

Israel said:


> Finding that place where liberty is not dependent upon the encroachment of another's is the threading of the needle for the soul.
> 
> The over reaching of some should always be a lesson to one. Just as God didn't slap the fruit from Adam's lips, when he easily could have, the christian may learn it is also not in his purview to prevent the other from learning whatever lessons need be learned in the dreadful pursuit of sorrow. Those lessons, are in God's hands.



Good thoughts.


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## Israel (Jun 27, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I don't blame anyone.  This is my perspective.
> 
> “I am made out of flesh, sold into sin’s power. 15 For I do not understand what I am doing, because I do not practice what I want to do, but I do what I hate. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 So now I am no longer the one doing it, but it is sin liv“living in me. 18 For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it. 19 For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me. 21 So I discover this principle: When I want to do what is good, evil is with me. 22 For in my inner self I joyfully agree with God’s law. 23 But I see a different law in the parts of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this dying body? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I myself am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh, to the law of sin"
> 
> The problem is in me.  The only solution is in The grace of God through Christ.


wonderful.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 27, 2014)

Israel said:


> wonderful.



Yes it is.


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