# Is this really what a five year old should be taught?



## Baroque Brass (Feb 27, 2022)

A friend whose family is very active in church has a very precocious five year old daughter. Her daughter recently said “when you die you either go to heaven or Helen Georgia.“ Her mom asked her what happens if you go to Helen Georgia? The child replied, you get thrown into fire! Is this the kind of thing churches should be teaching a very impressionable young mind? I think it’s wrong for a child to worry that if she doesn’t live her life by a certain standard that she’ll be thrown into fire. I hope that as she becomes older, this intelligent child will purge her mind of the brainwashing.


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## bullethead (Feb 27, 2022)

In the next sentence the little girl was most likely told how god is a loving god.
The threats of eternal pain are incentive to help gain and keep followers.

In another children's story a Jolly Fat Man knows if you've been bad or good. If you are good you get a toy,, if you are bad you get a lump of coal.


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## Spotlite (Feb 27, 2022)

I don’t know of any church teaching children of that age about the hot place. Everything is focused on “the good of Jesus” and how He loves them. 

As mentioned above, in both stories good and bad are taught - but the hot place strong meat for the babes on milk.


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## brutally honest (Feb 27, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I don’t know of any church teaching children of that age about the hot place. Everything is focused on “the good of Jesus” and how He loves them.



Yeah, I used to teach Sunday School for four-year-olds.  We never mentioned Helen, just “love, love, love”.


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## Madman (Feb 27, 2022)

I believe I would be having a discussion with the teacher.

He would have some “splain’in to do”.


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## bullethead (Feb 27, 2022)

There are sunday school lessons online to teach children of a place called Helen.
The link includes the Helen word so I wont post.
I'll PM it


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## ambush80 (Feb 27, 2022)

I remember being told about He11 in Sunday school when I was in 3rd or 4th grade.


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## bullethead (Feb 27, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I remember being told about He11 in Sunday school when I was in 3rd or 4th grade.


As do I


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## bullethead (Feb 27, 2022)

Regarding the links I sent through PM, you have to place the **** with the "H word" in order for the link to work.
The censors here will not allow the actual word even by PM


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## Spotlite (Feb 27, 2022)

bullethead said:


> There are sunday school lessons online to teach children of a place called Helen.
> The link includes the Helen word so I wont post.
> I'll PM it


Thanks for the PM. I was shocked. All I can say is there’s a Westboro Baptist, too.


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## Spotlite (Feb 27, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I remember being told about He11 in Sunday school when I was in 3rd or 4th grade.


 Yea but not in the depth it’s being told to these 5 year olds? 

We don’t go that in depth until they’re older and we have a 97% retention rate in our youth. As 18 year olds they understand it but it’s not a “fear factor” for them to remain in church.


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## bullethead (Feb 27, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Thanks for the PM. I was shocked. All I can say is there’s a Westboro Baptist, too.


Like we've discussed privately,  it is probably taught as much as it isnt taught. And it doesn't seem to be at either end of the extreme denominations or parishes that do or don't teach it.


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## 1eyefishing (Feb 27, 2022)

The church knows best.


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## ambush80 (Feb 27, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> The church knows best.




Which one?


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## ambush80 (Feb 27, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Yea but not in the depth it’s being told to these 5 year olds?
> 
> We don’t go that in depth until they’re older and we have a 97% retention rate in our youth. As 18 year olds they understand it but it’s not a “fear factor” for them to remain in church.



I remember asking if the fire burns your eyeballs and I was told that it does.....forever.  I think it was a Methodist church.


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## Spotlite (Feb 27, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Like we've discussed privately,  it is probably taught as much as it isnt taught. And it doesn't seem to be at either end of the extreme denominations or parishes that do or don't teach it.


I’m afraid you’re right.


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## Baroque Brass (Feb 27, 2022)

bullethead said:


> In the next sentence the little girl was most likely told how god is a loving god.
> The threats of eternal pain are incentive to help gain and keep followers.
> 
> In another children's story a Jolly Fat Man knows if you've been bad or good. If you are good you get a toy,, if you are bad you get a lump of coal.


My brother’s first wife was a terrible mother to my nephew. As a child, her mother must’ve not been much better. One Christmas her mother kept telling her she’d been bad and to expect a lump of coal for Christmas. She thought her mother was kidding only to get up Christmas morning to get a lump of coal while her siblings got toys. Later in the day she did get a toy but I truly think that and other childhood events made her a terrible mother.


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## NCHillbilly (Feb 27, 2022)

The Baptist churches I grew up in, we were sitting there as toddlers listening to the preacher scream angrily about why everybody was going to burn in Helen week in and week out as he jumped up and down and foamed at the mouth. The hate-filled, angry God and burning in Helen as the default position is one of the main things that made me abandon organized Christianity.  I don't need Angry God and Helen in my life.


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## ky55 (Feb 27, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> The Baptist churches I grew up in, we were sitting there as toddlers listening to the preacher scream angrily about why everybody was going to burn in Helen week in and week out as he jumped up and down and foamed at the mouth. The hate-filled, angry God and burning in Helen as the default position is one of the main things that made me abandon organized Christianity.  I don't need Angry God and Helen in my life.



Same here. 
No age restrictions on the congregation.


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## buckpasser (Feb 27, 2022)

We’re in the process of hiring a pastor now.  We won’t be hiring one like @NCHillbilly grew up with. We’ve invited some like to speak (unknowingly) and they were crossed off the list immediately.  I’m not sure what sort of congregation would actually want to hear that all the time?  Only a slight amount or maturity is required to understand the basic concept of Heaven/He\\.  Let’s get much deeper than that please. Thanks!


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## Spotlite (Feb 27, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> The Baptist churches I grew up in, we were sitting there as toddlers listening to the preacher scream angrily about why everybody was going to burn in Helen week in and week out as he jumped up and down and foamed at the mouth. The hate-filled, angry God and burning in Helen as the default position is one of the main things that made me abandon organized Christianity.  I don't need Angry God and Helen in my life.


I’m convinced that some preachers aren’t “God sent”.


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## NCHillbilly (Feb 27, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I’m convinced that some preachers aren’t “God sent”.


That was every preacher I ever saw in my childhood. Dozens of them. Helen, Helen, Helen.


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## Spotlite (Feb 27, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> That was every preacher I ever saw in my childhood. Dozens of them. Helen, Helen, Helen.


Its gotta be part of some messages but I’m speaking more specifically to this:



> the preacher scream angrily about why everybody was going to burn in Helen week in and week out



There’s more to preaching and reaching the lost than screaming angrily about Helen.


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## bullethead (Feb 27, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Its gotta be part of some messages but I’m speaking more specifically to this:
> 
> 
> 
> There’s more to preaching and reaching the lost than screaming angrily about Helen.


Once you strike the fear in people their ears open up for everything else you want to tell them about how to avoid the bad place.


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## buckpasser (Feb 27, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Once you strike the fear in people their ears open up for everything else you want to tell them about how to avoid the bad place.



I would think the proper amount of time to mention it in preaching would be roughly the percentage that is mentioned in bible along with everything else.  The percentage would be relatively low compared to other things. Certainly not an every sermon or even every month event.  I’m not a bible scholar though…

This is an interesting thread derailment for this subforum!  Haha


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## WaltL1 (Feb 27, 2022)

Having grown up Catholic, one thing I can say was that I was never subjected to the frothing at the mouth, psycho preachers spewing that kind of stuff.


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## Ruger#3 (Feb 27, 2022)

I was raised like NCH, fire brimstone shoveled down the aisle in a congregation of all ages. This drove me away from the church. Once away from home I explored other religions and found I what believe to be God and a religious home.


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## Spotlite (Feb 27, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Once you strike the fear in people their ears open up for everything else you want to tell them about how to avoid the bad place.


Those in it to strike with fear are the ones I don’t listen to.

It has to be taught, it has to be warned against. No difference in that and driving over the speed limit, I don’t not drive over in fear of a ticket, I just don’t drive over because I was taught better. 

I’ve been in this since 71 and tons of tent revivals and never had a preacher dwell on it week after week as a fear tactic. 

I know there are those that can’t handle strong preaching because they want to live they want and therefore fault the church as why they’re nit in church today. That’ll never change.


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## NCHillbilly (Feb 27, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Its gotta be part of some messages but I’m speaking more specifically to this:
> 
> 
> 
> There’s more to preaching and reaching the lost than screaming angrily about Helen.


That's what I thought, too. People seemed to want to hear about how they were going to Helen all the time, though.


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## Madman (Feb 27, 2022)

I’ve lead a sheltered church life it seems.  I do remember a Baptist preacher “preaching” me into Helen at my grandmothers church, and there was no way out of it.  When leaving I remember thinking,  “man where did he learn about that god”.


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## bullethead (Feb 27, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Those in it to strike with fear are the ones I don’t listen to.
> 
> It has to be taught, it has to be warned against. No difference in that and driving over the speed limit, I don’t not drive over in fear of a ticket, I just don’t drive over because I was taught better.
> 
> ...


It's like music. Fans for every style.


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## Cool Hand Luke (Feb 27, 2022)

My family and I was talking about this yesterday. In the early 70's, I remember being shown a movie called "A thief in the night" about the rapture at the church we went to. Scared the dickens out of me as a young'un. I'm 57 now and can still remember the horrible feeling. Fire and brimstone don't always work.....


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## Spotlite (Feb 27, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> That's what I thought, too. People seemed to want to hear about how they were going to Helen all the time, though.


To be fair, you’re right - some people like the fear tactics all the time. 

I think bullet nailed it below. 


bullethead said:


> It's like music. Fans for every style.


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## bullethead (Feb 27, 2022)

Teaching kids about Helen at 5 or 6 yrs old is insane!!! Here Little Cindy, hold PaPaw's rattle snake while I have a word with your Sunday School teacher.
?


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## ky55 (Feb 27, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I’m convinced that some preachers aren’t “God sent”.



I’m convinced that no preachers are “God sent”.


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## ky55 (Feb 27, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I’ve been in this since 71 and tons of tent revivals and never had a preacher dwell on it week after week as a fear tactic.



Yeah, our time frames are almost spot on, but that’s where the similarity ends. Our  “revivals” were week-long services held every night with an invited out-of-town slobber-mouthed barker who seemed to have been chosen specifically for his scathing sermons to the unwashed in the crowd.
Next was the last chance “altar call”.
?

In case you missed the Sunday morning sermon, or the revival, all you had to do was go to a funeral of a friend or family member. 
They were either preached into Heaven or He!!, and you were forced right then and there to decide where you would spend “eternity”……
While you were dealing with the loss of someone you cared about.


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## ky55 (Feb 27, 2022)

Cool Hand Luke said:


> My family and I was talking about this yesterday. In the early 70's, I remember being shown a movie called "A thief in the night" about the rapture at the church we went to. Scared the dickens out of me as a young'un. I'm 57 now and can still remember the horrible feeling. Fire and brimstone don't always work.....



And after all that worry and those horrible feelings for all those years about being left behind after the “rapture”…..

https://forum.gon.com/threads/purpose-of-the-rapture.871214/page-23#post-13275653


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## Spotlite (Feb 27, 2022)

ky55 said:


> I’m convinced that no preachers are “God sent”.


I have no issues there, I used to feel the need to “convince” but I’ve learned over the years that a man has a reason to believe and reason to disbelieve. 

I do believe there are preachers that are God sent.


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## Spotlite (Feb 27, 2022)

ky55 said:


> Yeah, our time frames are almost spot on, but that’s where the similarity ends. Our  “revivals” were week-long services held every night with an invited out-of-town slobber-mouthed barker who seemed to have been chosen specifically for his scathing sermons to the unwashed in the crowd.
> Next was the last chance “altar call”.
> ?
> 
> ...


Yea I have no issue with hard preaching and trying to reach the “unwashed”. I do have have issues with the constant fear tactics and all the doom and gloom preachers - every service the sky is falling. That ain’t preaching the Gospel, the Gospel is the life of Jesus and what he can do for you, if one believes in Jesus..



> In case you missed the Sunday morning sermon, or the revival, all you had to do was go to a funeral of a friend or family member.
> They were either preached into Heaven or He!!, and you were forced right then and there to decide where you would spend “eternity”……
> While you were dealing with the loss of someone you cared about.


Hate it with a passion. My response is always the same. Keeping in mind that you’re dealing with those that believe in God; I leave it to “they’re in the hands of a just God”. And I never offer anything but my condolences unless I’m specifically asked do I think Bob made it. 

I’ve been to funerals where there was an alter call. I get reminding folks that don’t deny God that you need to be thinking about your life and where you’ll spend eternity, but an alter call and forcing folks to commit now, during a funeral - those preachers are playing on the funeral attendees emotions.

I might have to listen to them at a funeral but outside of that I don’t have time for them.


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## hopper (Feb 28, 2022)

I remember my Aunt when she would put us to bed in 1st grade. " Yall better be quite or the Devil will come and take you away" 
Granted we were bad kids even back then??


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## Baroque Brass (Feb 28, 2022)

Seems I remember something about screaming and moaning and gnashing of teeth.


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## NCHillbilly (Feb 28, 2022)

ky55 said:


> Yeah, our time frames are almost spot on, but that’s where the similarity ends. Our  “revivals” were week-long services held every night with an invited out-of-town slobber-mouthed barker who seemed to have been chosen specifically for his scathing sermons to the unwashed in the crowd.
> Next was the last chance “altar call”.
> ?
> 
> ...


Yep, I don't miss the revivals at all. And I always thought preaching to the crowd and alter calls at a funeral was in very poor taste.


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## ky55 (Feb 28, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Yep, I don't miss the revivals at all. And I always thought preaching to the crowd and alter calls at a funeral was in very poor taste.



Yes, way past poor taste to me. 
And no minimum age requirement for the revivals or funerals.


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## 660griz (Mar 1, 2022)

I know the preachers that slammed their hands down on the pulpit REALLY made it difficult to get a nap in.


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## Thomas Paine (Mar 1, 2022)

so christianity doesn’t teach enteral fire for sins anymore?


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## 1eyefishing (Mar 1, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> The Baptist churches I grew up in, we were sitting there as toddlers listening to the preacher scream angrily about why everybody was going to burn in Helen week in and week out as he jumped up and down and foamed at the mouth. The hate-filled, angry God and burning in Helen as the default position is one of the main things that made me abandon organized Christianity.  I don't need Angry God and Helen in my life.


Hit the nail on the head with a default position thing..
In my belief, the opposite is probably a more realistic reality.


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## kmh1031 (Mar 3, 2022)

I am a Christian and I agree with you.
This should not be taught to anyone. 

First of all a burning **** is not biblical, and yet is taught by most all Christian churches.
The truth of Bible on death:
Condition of dead: Ecc 9:5-10, Ps 146:3-4
Soul dies Ez 18:4, 20
These false teachings and many more have turned more away from the Bible than any atheist teaching.


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## jollyroger (Mar 3, 2022)

I got more of the Helen talk from my mom growing up than I did from the church, my dad was largely absent from any religious talk.

She would also tell us kids that God was punishing us if we hurt ourselves immediately after a transgression against another sibling or for being smart.

She's more of the loving God type now.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 8, 2022)

Thomas Paine said:


> so christianity doesn’t teach enteral fire for sins anymore?



Whether they teach it or not the concept of* eternal *reward or punishment will always be the most important thing to every human able to understand the message once they hear it (if they ever hear it.) In other words, once the choice of your eternal destination is given to you, you are without excuse so you better choose wisely!

But here is the interesting part: as Christian society changes & advances the eternal torture starts getting re-imagined from pitchforks and fire into a less scary "separation from god" which is basically missing out on heaven when we die. More and more what was taken as literal is now thought of as metaphor/symbolism/allegory etc.

Noah's Ark, Adam & Eve, and many other outrageous stories used to be taken literally because the sciences of geography, geology, archeology, zoology, biology, physics, etc. etc. were nonexistent or in their infancy for hundreds of years after the bible was written. People really didn't know any better. So now the whole attitude is even if the stories are fiction that's okay, because humans are too stupid to ever really understand the mind of god anyway, so the only way he can teach us is through stories that are designed to be interpreted differently to different groups of people to eventually "see the light" and choose wisely so we live a better life for the betterment of society.

Anyway just my 2 cents!


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 8, 2022)

Baroque Brass said:


> Seems I remember something about screaming and moaning and gnashing of teeth.



but enough about my last trip to the dentist!


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## ky55 (Mar 8, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> but enough about my last trip to the dentist!



Or my last trip to the urologist.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 8, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> I am a Christian and I agree with you.
> This should not be taught to anyone.
> 
> First of all a burning **** is not biblical, and yet is taught by most all Christian churches.
> ...



you think the teachings are false, but maybe you are misinterpreting what you or other people read. The bible is so complex and deep that there are thousands of biblical experts that can give examples that prove that the hot place is indeed a place of eternal torture. The bible has so many inconsistencies & contradictions that entire databases list hundreds of "plot holes" that force people to reexamine their long-held ideas and attitudes. 

This is the point I was making about how Christianity is "evolving" so to speak. In a few hundred years - or maybe a few decades - biblical experts will have put different spins/interpretations on the bible to adjust to the constantly expanding knowledge and communication base (and the diverse mix of different philosophies and cultures) and the accepted meanings of what was written will change even more.


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## kmckinnie (Mar 8, 2022)

Helen Ga. is not full yet. ?


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## kmh1031 (Mar 8, 2022)

No….. the Bible is simple for those that want to understand it… 
Simple
In the beginning god NEVER said Adam/Eve would go to hale if they are..disobeyed. 
Simply u will die… nothing more nothing less u will return to dust 

Jesus said Lazarus was “sleeping” as death is a deathlike state.. until awakened by creator. 
Romans 6:7 says All who have died have been aquitted from their sins… so.. no hale! 
But this teaching has entered false teaching from pagan beliefs and now is taught in churches 
Except for those that understand the condutuon of dead as simply taught by the Bible


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## NE GA Pappy (Mar 8, 2022)

kmckinnie said:


> Helen Ga. is not full yet. ?



yes it is, and quit telling people to come up here


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## WaltL1 (Mar 9, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> No….. the Bible is simple for those that want to understand it…
> Simple
> In the beginning god NEVER said Adam/Eve would go to hale if they are..disobeyed.
> Simply u will die… nothing more nothing less u will return to dust
> ...





> No….. the Bible is simple for those that want to understand it…


Is it really that simple?
Most folks, particularly those indoctrinated from a young age, are TOLD/TAUGHT what their understanding should be according to their denomination/Pastor/Preacher/Priest.
Not sure its a "simple" thing for alot of folks to go against that or even consider something other for a multitude of different reasons.


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## 660griz (Mar 9, 2022)

Teaching **** had the greatest impact on church attendance. The really important stuff, tithings.


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## bullethead (Mar 9, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Is it really that simple?
> Most folks, particularly those indoctrinated from a young age, are TOLD/TAUGHT what their understanding should be according to their denomination/Pastor/Preacher/Priest.
> Not sure its a "simple" thing for alot of folks to go against that or even consider something other for a multitude of different reasons.


Exactly 
If understanding the Bible were simple there wouldn't be over 40,000 denominations with individual interpretation throughout. A few billion people think the bible is easy to understand as long as it is understood exactly like each one of those understands it individually.....which means everybody else has it wrong but "me".

It's like the hogwash when the Catholic Church says the Cardinals pray, get word from God an are guided by the Holy Spirit as to which Pope to pick. And yet somehow the message must not be clear because there are never any unanimous picks on the first try despite Top Ranking holy men supposedly getting the word directly from God.


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## kmh1031 (Mar 9, 2022)

The teachings of false religion has blinded people from the truths of the bible...yes, simple truths of the bible.

My above scriptures in a previous comment, shed light just on a few topics, death, forgiveness after death, no burning ****.

However, the devil, has blinded the eyes of the unbelievers and continues to show (via false religious teachings) himself as an angel of light...John 8:44 shows that clearly..he is a manslayer.

Note Jesus....simple but impactful words at John 8:31
Then Jesus went on to say to the Jews who had believed him: “If you *remain in my word, *you are really my disciples, 32 and you will *know the truth, and the truth will set you free.*

"remain in his word"...how many of the 40K + religions have done that today? What do they teach compared to the early Christians and that of Jesus?

John 17:3 is a great scripture that shows we must take in knowledge...and that knowledge is the truth, which easily combats false teachings.

Think of this truth:  when Lazarus died....and Jesus told Mary he will rise again...*.what did she say?*

Yes lord...I know he will rise on the *LAST day*...as that was the true belief, *not* that he had gone (dead for 4 days) to heaven or hale .....and Jesus did not dispute her on this point.  Jesus even said this:

John 5:25 - 29:
Most truly I say to you, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who have paid attention will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to do judging, because he is the Son of man. 28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment

NOTE: If when you die, you go to heaven or ****.....WHO then is in the memorial tombs? the dead are simply waiting for the resurrection day, as Jesus indicated, and not in torment (Romans 6:7 dead forgiven)

so this confirms the condition of the dead  along with many other scriptures and also that the dead will rise again...and death will be no more..here on earth...Rev 21:3-4.

How does this scriptural and biblical teaching differ from the false religious teachings today of a burning ****, or immediately go to heaven??

the truth...sets one free...and many more truths to learn...
earth will not be destroyed, the future, prophesies happening in our day, and more.

Bible foretold what is happening today (king of north, king of south)...in the world was foretold by Daniel, Timothy, Jesus..and what the outcome will be...


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## bullethead (Mar 9, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> The teachings of false religion has blinded people from the truths of the bible...yes, simple truths of the bible.
> 
> My above scriptures in a previous comment, shed light just on a few topics, death, forgiveness after death, no burning ****.
> 
> ...


Jesus said his return will happen within that generation. "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.”
That has come, gone and is long passed. Unless now you care to show us the correct understanding as both you and God are only aware of.


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## bullethead (Mar 9, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> The teachings of false religion has blinded people from the truths of the bible...yes, simple truths of the bible.
> 
> My above scriptures in a previous comment, shed light just on a few topics, death, forgiveness after death, no burning ****.
> 
> ...


Where does the devil reside? Why doesn't god cease his existence?


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## WaltL1 (Mar 9, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> The teachings of false religion has blinded people from the truths of the bible...yes, simple truths of the bible.
> 
> My above scriptures in a previous comment, shed light just on a few topics, death, forgiveness after death, no burning ****.
> 
> ...


Just an observation -
You obviously believe there are "religious false teachings". However they all seem to take place AFTER the creation of the Bible.
My question is .... how do you know the Bible, which we know was created by men... isnt also just another example of false religious teachings?


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 9, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> The teachings of false religion has blinded people from the truths of the bible...yes, simple truths of the bible.
> 
> My above scriptures in a previous comment, shed light just on a few topics, death, forgiveness after death, no burning ****.
> 
> ...


 
Well I interpret what you just said (using actual bible quotations) that we don't go to torture town right away when we die, but on the resurrection day/judgement day then you will go to torture town or heaven if you chose wisely when you were still alive. Either way everyone goes to  heaven or the alternative on the day we are all awakened from our sleep.


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## madsam (Mar 9, 2022)

The Bible is the true word of GOD. He used his Prophets to create the Bible to
provide a standard for his followers to live by. God  is magnificent in his communication with his prophets having breathed the words to them. Learning 
and reading the bible and applying to everyday experiences for me has been
an awesome thing.  

Its up to the parent to teach the child about Hades. Do it age correct or not.
That way when it is taught in church, etc. they have the correct understanding
no matter what is said . This applies to any age group.


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## 660griz (Mar 9, 2022)

madsam said:


> The Bible is the true word of GOD.



Which one? You know what would have been truly 'GODLY', instead of hiring secretaries?  God create a book so that whoever opens it, they can read it in their language. No interpreter needed. Drop a copy in the jungles of South America, poison frog arrow guy picks it up, it talks to him in his language. Belief and communicating the word of God all knocked out with one book. Easy peezy. Next!


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## bullethead (Mar 9, 2022)

madsam said:


> The Bible is the true word of GOD. He used his Prophets to create the Bible to
> provide a standard for his followers to live by. God  is magnificent in his communication with his prophets having breathed the words to them. Learning
> and reading the bible and applying to everyday experiences for me has been
> an awesome thing.
> ...


All religions say roughly the same thing as you have above.
What separates them (which none stand out so far) is someone like you who makes these claims but then is able to back them up with factual examples, evidence or anything that proves anyone who believes as you do has some sort of advantage over someone who does not. Until then it is modern people holding onto ancient superstition while using a religious book as it's own examples.


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## bullethead (Mar 9, 2022)

660griz said:


> Which one? You know what would have been truly 'GODLY', instead of hiring secretaries?  God create a book so that whoever opens it, they can read it in their language. No interpreter needed. Drop a copy in the jungles of South America, poison frog arrow guy picks it up, it talks to him in his language. Belief and communicating the word of God all knocked out with one book. Easy peezy. Next!


Noooooo griz.....it is much more godlike to arrive on the religious scene thousnds of years late and have "your" handbook assembled from the stories (often borrowed from previous cultures) of various and mostly anonymous authors written over 1500 years. Contradictory verses and incorrect facts are definitely the work of an all knowing god choosing incapable writers to pass on his words.
But it's All True! It says so right here in its own writings.


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## 660griz (Mar 9, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Noooooo griz.....it is much more godlike to arrive on the religious scene thousnds of years late and have "your" handbook assembled from the stories (often borrowed from previous cultures) of various and mostly anonymous authors written over 1500 years. Contradictory verses and incorrect facts are definitely the work of an all knowing god choosing incapable writers to pass on his words.
> But it's All True! It says so right here in its own writings.


Well, when you put it like that, sign me up! 

Course, my way, God could more easily edit out the stuff about slaves and genocide, (or not) etc., instead of relying on mankind to ignore it...eventually. Anywhooo....great book.


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## bullethead (Mar 9, 2022)

"Ye be wise to heed thine words of Bullet thee Head as for what he speaketh is bound by the Truth of our One True Creator"

See....what I say is true....says so right there.


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## bullethead (Mar 9, 2022)

660griz said:


> Well, when you put it like that, sign me up!
> 
> Course, my way, God could more easily edit out the stuff about slaves and genocide, (or not) etc., instead of relying on mankind to ignore it...eventually. Anywhooo....great book.


God wasn't politically correct back in the day.....how in his sake could he foresee such changes all these years later?


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## 660griz (Mar 9, 2022)

bullethead said:


> God wasn't politically correct back in the day.....how in his sake could he foresee such changes all these years later?


I know right? He would have to be omniscience, or something. Talk about being stuck in the single digit eras.  Ooops.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 9, 2022)

madsam said:


> The Bible is the true word of GOD. He used his Prophets to create the Bible to
> provide a standard for his followers to live by. God  is magnificent in his communication with his prophets having breathed the words to them. Learning
> and reading the bible and applying to everyday experiences for me has been
> an awesome thing.
> ...





> The Bible is the true word of GOD. He used his Prophets to create the Bible to
> provide a standard for his followers to live by. God  is magnificent in his communication with his prophets having breathed the words to them.


Yes, thats ^ what you (and we) were taught. 
Would it be "simple" for you to accept that was a false teaching?

Thats why "the simple truths of the Bible" isnt so simple for the folks that were taught something different than what you find simple.


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## madsam (Mar 9, 2022)

660griz said:


> Which one? You know what would have been truly 'GODLY', instead of hiring secretaries?  God create a book so that whoever opens it, they can read it in their language. No interpreter needed. Drop a copy in the jungles of South America, poison frog arrow guy picks it up, it talks to him in his language. Belief and communicating the word of God all knocked out with one book. Easy peezy. Next!


Walt , 660 , Bullethead ,  you guys are either  searching  or running ......


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## kmh1031 (Mar 9, 2022)

Rather lengthy answer to your question so bear with me please...but supported by scripture:
It was I think almost 2000 years ago, Jesus’ disciples asked him for a sign, or evidence, of his future presence in Kingdom power.

What he said to the is in the 24th and 25th chapters of Matthew, and his response provided a *composite* sign, of his presence, and all the elements of which are now being fulfilled on worldwide…(watch the news) scale.

The fulfillment of that sign marks a time of distress and great testing.

Jesus warned: “Look out that nobody misleads you; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. You are going to hear of wars and reports of wars; see that you are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet.” Matt 24: 4-6.  This is rampant today!

this generation has seen these things....since Jesus established his kingdom...

Jesus went on to prophesy as to the sign of his presence….that there would be wars on an unprecedented scale.

So it is a time or generation when we would all see these signs of Jesus parasouia…original world...meaning....presence, not him in person…

Like he stated…”when you see the fig..and leaves budding, you will know it is spring…although not here fully yet…spring is close…so the sign of the son of man..”

The same with the signs that Jesus gave of his return…and it also says he came to take peace away from the world…

One of the first things Jesus did as he established his kingdom in heaven….(lords prayer), kingdom” Daniel 2:44 is cast Satan and his demons out…of heaven…
What has been the result?

All one has to do is watch the news…and see this is happening…and that it is clear Jesus has returned and is is ruling..

Revelation 12:7:  And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled *8* but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. *9* So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, *who is misleading the entire inhabited earth*; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.

And Revelation 12:12: On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them!
Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”

Has that been the case?  Note the wars…two of these have been classified as world wars, one from 1914 to 1918 and the second from 1939 to 1945. How many since then? more than any other time perios...also what is going on now with Russia?

Further, he said that there would be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another along with pestilences Also note 2 Tim 3:1-5…for a great group of signs..

Clearly Jesus is here, Ruling in his kingdom, and by the signs he gave, of his presence, we are seeing them today.


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## bullethead (Mar 9, 2022)

madsam said:


> Walt , 660 , Bullethead ,  you guys are either  searching  or running ......


We are asking you questions which so  far you have not answered. And we a just getting started.
Please use the reply button to each of our posts and adrress them so we can discuss these things further. If you have factual answers we would love to hear them.


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## madsam (Mar 9, 2022)

bullethead said:


> We are asking you questions which so  far you have not answered. And we a just getting started.
> Please use the reply button to each of our posts and adrress them so we can discuss these things further. If you have factual answers we would love to hear them.


 Your answers are in the most published highest selling book  of all times
   The Holy Bible...... I promise if you truly want guidance and answers to your
questions it is in there.  Factual is relative ..... but not in the Bible.


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## bullethead (Mar 9, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Rather lengthy answer to your question so bear with me please...but supported by scripture:
> It was I think almost 2000 years ago, Jesus’ disciples asked him for a sign, or evidence, of his future presence in Kingdom power.
> 
> What he said to the is in the 24th and 25th chapters of Matthew, and his response provided a *composite* sign, of his presence, and all the elements of which are now being fulfilled on worldwide…(watch the news) scale.
> ...


Would a god be capable of being specific? Could a god put an exact time, place, name, incident to a claim or must it be prophetic parables which can and have been interpreted to mean hundreds of things ALL of which are "evidence" to whoever links them to satisfy themselves?
According to the scripture you use Jesus predicted the SuperBowl also.

There have always been food shortages, earthquakes, plagues, cosmic anomalies, wars, destruction, leaders, followers and on and on and on.
The writers had Jesus make "No Duh" statements thousands of years after other holy writings coined the "No Duh" statements. I would think a god would be more precise about who what where when how than leaving vaugue parables and letting people assimilate them to events.


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## bullethead (Mar 9, 2022)

madsam said:


> Your answers are in the most published highest selling book  of all times
> The Holy Bible...... I promise if you truly want guidance and answers to your
> questions it is in there.  Factual is relative ..... but not in the Bible.


Been there, done that, read the book and have found it is not what you claim. If it was I wouldn't be asking you to back up your claims.
Indulge me if you will. Please show me the answers that you think answer my questions.


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## madsam (Mar 9, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Been there, done that, read the book and have found it is not what you claim. If it was I wouldn't be asking you to back up your claims.
> Indulge me if you will. Please show me the answers that you think answer my questions.





bullethead said:


> Been there, done that, read the book and have found it is not what you claim. If it was I wouldn't be asking you to back up your claims.
> Indulge me if you will. Please show me the answers that you think answer my questions.


Sir I can't help you find the answers to your salvation. That is up to you. I can pray
for you and hope you find understanding.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 9, 2022)

madsam said:


> Walt , 660 , Bullethead ,  you guys are either  searching  or running ......


Hmmmm..... you might be not so far off.
Walked, (not ran) away from organized religions and its teachings.
Searching for legitimate evidence of God or gods existence that isnt tied directly back to organized religion and its teachings.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 9, 2022)

madsam said:


> Your answers are in the most published highest selling book  of all times
> The Holy Bible...... I promise if you truly want guidance and answers to your
> questions it is in there.  Factual is relative ..... but not in the Bible.


I dont think "most published, highest selling book of all times" = that makes it true.
Do you?
And I didnt find answers in the Bible. I found more questions.


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## 1eyefishing (Mar 9, 2022)

If I hear that it says so in The Bible, I usually think that there must not be any evidence anywhere else.


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## kmh1031 (Mar 9, 2022)

“There have always been food shortages, earthquakes, plagues, cosmic anomalies, wars, destruction, leaders, followers and on and on and on.”
If u want to discuss the prophesies that are exact and many more I am happy to… 
however yes their have always been these things… 
But not to the magnitude of the past 100 years, and more today… 2Tim 3:1-5. a composite sign of all these things intensifying .. like the pangs of distress of a pregnant woman…. Increase… 
so too all these signs and more lead up to The Great Tribulation, and armegedden which is not man’s war… but gods war… another misconception of false religion.


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## bullethead (Mar 9, 2022)

madsam said:


> Sir I can't help you find the answers to your salvation. That is up to you. I can pray
> for you and hope you find understanding.


I am not looking for answers to my salvation. I am asking you to back up your assertive claims. If you come here, make claims and statements and are unable to defend or even make a good case for them then you cannot possibly think that people who do not share your beliefs will automatically change their minds simply because you say something is so.


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## kmh1031 (Mar 9, 2022)

And… as many will applaud……at the time…
God “will put it in their minds” for govts a collation of nations to turn on Babylon the great ( world empire of false religion) and have a war on religion and work to eliminate all religions
However they, the nations will also turn on Gods people being a Religion as Revelation shows he has a people here on earth
And that is the trigger for Armageddon when god will annihilate these entities and only his people will survive… with gods protection 
Future prophesy….very much headed that way today… as many are fed up with these false religions and their teachings


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## bullethead (Mar 9, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> “There have always been food shortages, earthquakes, plagues, cosmic anomalies, wars, destruction, leaders, followers and on and on and on.”
> If u want to discuss the prophesies that are exact and many more I am happy to…
> however yes their have always been these things…
> But not to the magnitude of the past 100 years, and more today… 2Tim 3:1-5. a composite sign of all these things intensifying .. like the pangs of distress of a pregnant woman…. Increase…
> so too all these signs and more lead up to The Great Tribulation, and armegedden which is not man’s war… but gods war… another misconception of false religion.





> 3 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.



Break it down for me. Show me the specifics as to where it points to "now-ish" and not every and any would be example that has happened in almost 2000 years since it was written.
Explain to me how all the people like you who interpreted the same passages during similar times all throughout history were wrong. WW1, WW2, and all the atrocious that went wih them...explain the differences from those to now.
How long do you give us? Days, weeks, years, decades, centuries???


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## bullethead (Mar 9, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> And… as many will applaud……at the time…
> God “will put it in their minds” for govts a collation of nations to turn on Babylon the great ( world empire of false religion) and have a war on religion and work to eliminate all religions
> However they, the nations will also turn on Gods people being a Religion as Revelation shows he has a people here on earth
> And that is the trigger for Armageddon when god will annihilate these entities and only his people will survive… with gods protection
> Future prophesy….very much headed that way today… as many are fed up with these false religions and their teachings


What's going on in Babylon? Can you show me on a map or are you relying on vague names that are used universally as metaphors for whatever a person can conjur up at the time?
Doesn't an all knowing God know?


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## kmh1031 (Mar 9, 2022)

As u may know… revelation is more symbolic… Babylon of ancient times was the Mecca of the ancient world….pagan practices and many false practices, etc And many teachings found in religion today originated from Babylon…. this in Revelation the term Babylon the great… which has been identified as the world of all religions that are false.
Riding on a beast which are pictured to be the govts and merchants she has committed figurative adultery with by her control and meddling in politics and money…. From businesses. 
But god noted in Revelation will cause these to turn on her, false religion.. 
so not a place but false religion as a whole


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## bullethead (Mar 9, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> As u may know… revelation is more symbolic… Babylon of ancient times was the Mecca of the ancient world….pagan practices and many false practices, etc And many teachings found in religion today originated from Babylon…. this in Revelation the term Babylon the great… which has been identified as the world of all religions that are false.
> Riding on a beast which are pictured to be the govts and merchants she has committed figurative adultery with by her control and meddling in politics and money…. From businesses.
> But god noted in Revelation will cause these to turn on her, false religion..
> so not a place but false religion as a whole


So when is Jesus riding in to save you and whack me?
These vague figurative writings can be interpreted to literally mean anything.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 9, 2022)

"As u may know… revelation is more symbolic…" - kmh1030  

and there you have it folks! Who is the ultimate authority on what is symbolic/metaphor/poetic license and what is by-golly no doubt about it meant to be taken literally? When you write a book that is chock-full of "symbolism" and plot holes the size of the Grand Canyon expect future generations to miss whatever message you are trying to communicate.


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## kmh1031 (Mar 9, 2022)

Yea u r right…. They can be… but they don’t… 
a study of the Bible… learning it’s truth, proven prophesies, science, causes one to have faith on them… and confidence in the future… and comfort 
Ps 37 shows the earth in future.. a positive outlook… 
Doesn’t have to be whacked… but in the end… like Sodom and Gomorrah and the flood it is ur call… 
Matthew 24:37:
37  For just as the days of Noah were,q so the presence of the Son of man will be.r 38  For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,s 39  and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away,t so the presence of the Son of man will be
lastly John 17:3: This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ


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## bullethead (Mar 9, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Yea u r right…. They can be… but they don’t…
> a study of the Bible… learning it’s truth, proven prophesies, science, causes one to have faith on them… and confidence in the future… and comfort
> Ps 37 shows the earth in future.. a positive outlook…
> Doesn’t have to be whacked… but in the end… like Sodom and Gomorrah and the flood it is ur call…
> ...


Don't quote them if you will not break them down and show us how they plainly explain and more importantly pinpoint when something, anything biblical is going to happen.

You seem to be able to decipher these vague symbolic phrases.
I am 100% sincere. Interpret them for me line by line that shows that what was said then equates to something specific now.

You used "the flood" as an example. Should I be worried that a small portion of the middle east might or is going to flood again?


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 9, 2022)

whoa, whoa....learning the "science" of the bible?  Where to begin on the blatant inaccuracy in that realm? 

But wait...*.there's a loophole*! Any statement that completely violates known & proven scientific facts is just metaphor or symbolism.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 9, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Don't quote them if you will not break them down and show us how they plainly explain and more importantly pinpoint when something, anything biblical is going to happen.
> 
> You seem to be able to decipher these vague symbolic phrases.
> I am 100% sincere. Interpret them for me line by line that shows that what was said then equates to something specific now.
> ...



speaking of worried, somebody better tell all the polar bears, kangaroos, penguins, emus, etc. to get to the middle east with a quickness, where there is an ark waiting for them!


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## kmh1031 (Mar 9, 2022)

Well science.. tell me please now… instead of me talking… how…
4500 years ago+ how did ancient humans under gods laws know many things not discovered until thousands or years later??

God gave laws to the Israelites and thus they Knew to quarantine the sick, determine the difference between contagious leprosy and non. what about how the Israelites knew to bury their waste or to not touch a dead person according to the letter…And many more?
While the other nations did not?   Also Many of the scentific medical reasons these were done were not discovered until late 1800s early 1900s??
Just a couple more the Bible tells about the rain cycle, circle of the earth, (original word meant sphere) earth supported upon nothing…
what was the “scentific minds” saying at the time??
Flat? Supported by elephants? Use leeches to cure… etc etc


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## kmh1031 (Mar 9, 2022)

It’s not the animals that are disobiedent 
No worries there


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## kmh1031 (Mar 9, 2022)

If you are sincere and would like a Bible study… to learn these and other Bible truths… not the false teachings of what is taught today.. I am happy to help.
But to debate reload, debate again… I am not interested in that as it would be much like trying to convince my wife to not buy more shoes and her trying convincing me why I don’t need another wool hunting outfit…


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## bullethead (Mar 9, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Well science.. tell me please now… instead of me talking… how…
> 4500 years ago+ how did ancient humans under gods laws know many things not discovered until thousands or years later??
> 
> God gave laws to the Israelites and thus they Knew to quarantine the sick, determine the difference between contagious leprosy and non. what about how the Israelites knew to bury their waste or to not touch a dead person according to the letter…And many more?
> ...


Get two birds. Kill one. Dip the live bird in the blood of the dead one. Sprinkle the blood on the leper seven times, and then let the blood-soaked bird fly away. Next find a lamb and kill it. Wipe some of its blood on the patient’s right ear, thumb, and big toe. Sprinkle seven times with oil and wipe some of the oil on his right ear, thumb and big toe. Repeat. Finally find another pair of birds. Kill one and dip the live bird in the dead bird’s blood. Wipe some blood on the patient’s right ear, thumb, and big toe. Sprinkle the house with blood 7 times.
*– Leviticus 14:2-52*

*This is your scientific example for curing Leprosy?*


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## bullethead (Mar 9, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> If you are sincere and would like a Bible study… to learn these and other Bible truths… not the false teachings of what is taught today.. I am happy to help.
> But to debate reload, debate again… I am not interested in that as it would be much like trying to convince my wife to not buy more shoes and her trying convincing me why I don’t need another wool hunting outfit…


So far,
You have not been able to link a bible verse to a specific modern day happening.
You have not been able to back up any claim that you have made.
I have asked you take what is in the bible and relate it to the real world using facts an evidence. 

I've been to bible study. If you want me to read the bible with you and take what I am reading as truth without questioning it...that is NOT a bible study. If what is written in the bible is truthful why cant you back it up? It should be indisputable. I shouldn't be able to question it because the truth has all the bases covered. 
What do you mean by Bible Study? What will we do? Read it and shake our heads in agreement because LOOK! IT SAYS SO RIGHT THERE, THERFORE IT IS TRUE! ?????


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## kmh1031 (Mar 9, 2022)

Hahah no…
Of all I stated… 
U pick one, and do not respond to the others… 
But some of it I know… not ur cup of tea.. but these scriptures u stated is to show 100% faith amd dependence on god… and not depend on their own understanding.. 

the identification of leprosy os at Lev 13:1-46… reading just a few va will help u see ;maybe) 

so when u can… review the others I shared re science… and let me know please how 4500-4800 yrs ago ancient men in the desert wilderness knew these before modern science


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## bullethead (Mar 9, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Hahah no…
> Of all I stated…
> U pick one, and do not respond to the others…
> But some of it I know… not ur cup of tea.. but these scriptures u stated is to show 100% faith amd dependence on god… and not depend on their own understanding..
> ...


I am going one at a time so we can pick a starting point.


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## bullethead (Mar 9, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Hahah no…
> Of all I stated…
> U pick one, and do not respond to the others…
> But some of it I know… not ur cup of tea.. but these scriptures u stated is to show 100% faith amd dependence on god… and not depend on their own understanding..
> ...


People in ancient times knew these things by learning from other cultures and civilizations that came before them. These things were passed down from the Egyptians, Mesopotamians, Chinese and dozens of others. 

If you believe that an Exodus occurred and the the Jews wandered the Wilderness then you belive that they got their start in Egypt. Is it possible that they learned from the Egyptians?

(I do not adhere to the Exodus story as told in the Bible)


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## kmh1031 (Mar 9, 2022)

2 tim 3:1-5 is not happening more today than 10, 20,30 years ago? 
The last days would be marked by wars, famines, earthquakes, and epidemics of deadly disease. No denying that… Matt 24:3,7 and Luke 21:1 

also During the last days, human society would suffer a serious moral and spiritual breakdown 2 Tim 3:2-5
Oh… written couple thousand years ago..
Babylon never inhabited again…? and the many prophesies of Jesus… up until his death..
What control did he have over where he was born? Prophesied hundreds of years befor?
Oh and Babylon and how and who was going to overthrow it.. the proof is there…. And it is in the Bible…

Bible was written by some 40 men over the course of 1,600 years, many did not know each other as they lived on different areas and time periods.. over 1600 years… yet it is all consistent and harmonizes.. pretty amazing


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## bullethead (Mar 9, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> 2 tim 3:1-5 is not happening more today than 10, 20,30 years ago?
> The last days would be marked by wars, famines, earthquakes, and epidemics of deadly disease. No denying that… Matt 24:3,7 and Luke 21:1
> 
> also During the last days, human society would suffer a serious moral and spiritual breakdown 2 Tim 3:2-5
> ...


What isnt seemingly happening more today than 10,20,30, 100, 1000, 2000 years ago?

Can you name the 40 authors of the Bible?
If not, who wrote the Gospels?


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## bullethead (Mar 9, 2022)

But lets go back to this Leprosy you brought up.
Your God gave those instructions to cure Leprosy. 
Tell me how/why it works....or doesn't.


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## kmh1031 (Mar 9, 2022)

Are u debating or asking to truly understand?
If the first I’m not interested if the latter then I am happy to talk 
But if u cannot look back 20 years and see that these prophesies of Jesus on the last days or Timothy… are more dominant applicable today then 20 years ago and give u pause.. then perhaps u were not meant to study.
Yes, I know who the inspired writers of the Bible are.


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## kmh1031 (Mar 9, 2022)

How come u have not addressed any of my other “scentific” biblical examples…. So u agree with them.. perhaps so I think.. 
have u read the account I cited on leprosy?


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## bullethead (Mar 9, 2022)

Although I guess "Get two birds, kill one and sprinkle it's blood....." is symbolic for a 3 antibiotic cocktail that is used today.
I see how it works now.


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## bullethead (Mar 9, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> How come u have not addressed any of my other “scentific” biblical examples…. So u agree with them.. perhaps so I think..
> have u read the account I cited on leprosy?


I addressed the others by saying these practices were learned from other cultures.


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## bullethead (Mar 9, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Are u debating or asking to truly understand?
> If the first I’m not interested if the latter then I am happy to talk
> But if u cannot look back 20 years and see that these prophesies of Jesus on the last days or Timothy… are more dominant applicable today then 20 years ago and give u pause.. then perhaps u were not meant to study.
> Yes, I know who the inspired writers of the Bible are.


I am well read, well versed and well studied on the contents of the bible. Merely spouting off verses does not help anyone understand anything.
I am asking you to explain them using specific examples of what you are meaning.

No i do not think the word is different from 10+ years ago. The names change, the places differ but the happenings are always going on 24/7 somewhere.

Take your 2Tim line by line and give examples of today to show me what 2 Tim is specifically mentioning. Forget the vague references and get into the This is waht 2Tim says therefore this is what it is talking about today.


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## kmh1031 (Mar 9, 2022)

U r guessing and have no proof… 
Secondly I did not refute or agree that man did not know on their own about the earth round, standing on nothing, rain cycle 
Maybe do ur counter research and come back… 
Here is the biblical reference Isa 40:22
There is One who dwells above the circle of the earth,
Job 26:7
He is . . . hanging the earth upon nothing.
4500 years ago… laws governing the universe;
Do you know the laws governing the heavens, orcan you impose their*authority on the earth?
interesting indeed… 

Any non proof???


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## kmh1031 (Mar 9, 2022)

Perhaps u do have knowledge and are well read…. And know the Bible in and out..
But the truths of the Bible u cannot grasp…
Note 1 Corinthians 1:19-21
For it is written: “I will make the wisdom of the wise men perish, and the intelligence of the intellectuals I will reject.”*a20  Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this system of things? 
Has not God made the wisdom of the world foolish? 21  For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not get to know Godbthrough its wisdom,c God was pleased through the foolishnessd of what is preached to save those believing


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## bullethead (Mar 9, 2022)

*How was sewage disposed of in ancient Egypt?*
Waste was disposed of through underground drains built with tightly laid bricks. Other civilizations were also advanced, with the Neolithic Chinese discovery and extensive use of deep drilling down to groundwater for clean drinking water.

*What did ancient Egyptians do with their waste?*
In ancient Egyptian, each household had the responsibility, which was to dispose their own garbage, at the communal dump, which was the irrigation canals. In some homes they would have trays of earth for drainage and to dispose of waste.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 9, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> 2 tim 3:1-5 is not happening more today than 10, 20,30 years ago?
> The last days would be marked by wars, famines, earthquakes, and epidemics of deadly disease. No denying that… Matt 24:3,7 and Luke 21:1
> 
> also During the last days, human society would suffer a serious moral and spiritual breakdown 2 Tim 3:2-5
> ...





> Bible was written by some 40 men over the course of 1,600 years, many did not know each other as they lived on different areas and time periods.. over 1600 years… yet it is all consistent and harmonizes.. pretty amazing


Any chance you are ignoring the fact that men decided what made it into the Bible and what didnt?
Its kind if disingenuous to portray the story being these dudes all agreed and it all flowed together.
Men picked and chose what got discarded and what made the story they wanted told.
Im not telling you the Bible is a book of lies. But I am telling you that you are ignoring alot of history to make it all work. Thats fine for you. Its not fine for everybody.


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## bullethead (Mar 9, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> U r guessing and have no proof…
> Secondly I did not refute or agree that man did not know on their own about the earth round, standing on nothing, rain cycle
> Maybe do ur counter research and come back…
> Here is the biblical reference Isa 40:22
> ...


Are you asking about who resides in the Buddhist heavens, Sumerian heavens, Greek heavens, Egyptian heavens.....and the heavens of many other religions or just the gods that lived in the heavens before Judaism was started?


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## kmh1031 (Mar 9, 2022)

2 Tim 3:16-17
All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,  17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work
god inspired imperfect men to write the victories, losses, challenges, trials and triumphs of gods people 
The history is of these people and the govts all through history that had an impact either positive or negative.


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## kmh1031 (Mar 9, 2022)

Those gods are ma made non living gods


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## kmh1031 (Mar 9, 2022)

Interesting discussion Bullethead 
However I must turn in… I have a 4:30 wake-up call!
So may catch u later as I have to head out of town


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## bullethead (Mar 9, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Perhaps u do have knowledge and are well read…. And know the Bible in and out..
> But the truths of the Bible u cannot grasp…
> Note 1 Corinthians 1:19-21
> For it is written: “I will make the wisdom of the wise men perish, and the intelligence of the intellectuals I will reject.”*a20  Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this system of things?
> Has not God made the wisdom of the world foolish? 21  For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not get to know Godbthrough its wisdom,c God was pleased through the foolishnessd of what is preached to save those believing


Do you have an understanding that the majority of religious writings say the same things.....
They are right, other are wrong.
If you read this and aren't convinced it is because my god made you that way.
Blah blah blah


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## bullethead (Mar 9, 2022)

The Truth doesn't mind being questioned,  a lie does.


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## 660griz (Mar 9, 2022)

madsam said:


> Walt , 660 , Bullethead ,  you guys are either  searching  or running ......


More like waiting... 
I have done the searching and too old to run.


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## DOUG 281 (Mar 9, 2022)

teach them when they are young that Heaven is real so is ****.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 10, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Those gods are ma made non living gods


Since regurgitating scripture is pretty much all we are going get out of you, how about this one -
14*For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:* 
Seems like this is simply acknowledging other gods. Or is the Christian God jealous of man made gods?
Now go ahead, tell me how it isnt that simple and doesnt mean what it says.


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## kmh1031 (Mar 10, 2022)

Thousands of gods today and always have been…. But True Christians, and by that I do not mean Any in all religions today…recognize and serve as God the only One whom Jesus Christ acknowledged and served as God, and that is his heavenly Father.

Expressing this position of true Christians, the apostle Paul wrote them: 

“We know that an idol is nothing in the world and that there is no God but one.

 For even though there are those who are called ‘gods’, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords’, there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him, and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him. Nevertheless, there is not this knowledge in all persons.” 1 Cor 8:4-7 

And acts 14:15 Turn . . . to the living God, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all the things in them.”
so… that is my stand… among a sea of lifeless gods


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## kmh1031 (Mar 10, 2022)

Not jealous of man made gods....but he requires exclusive whole souled devotion...this involves many things...not just gods....that people worship..

you may want to read the account of Elijah, and the offering to BAAL and an offering of the true god...how that went...


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## 660griz (Mar 10, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Those gods are ma made non living gods


There are no other kinds of god. All of them are man-made.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 10, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Thousands of gods today and always have been…. But True Christians, and by that I do not mean Any in all religions today…recognize and serve as God the only One whom Jesus Christ acknowledged and served as God, and that is his heavenly Father.
> 
> Expressing this position of true Christians, the apostle Paul wrote them:
> 
> ...


You can save yourself some typing. We are all aware that Christians only recognize and serve the Christian God. 
Which has nothing to do with God being a jealous God as per scripture.
Seems like to you its ok to override that scripture for the sake of being deemed a "true" Christian.


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## bullethead (Mar 10, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Not jealous of man made gods....but he requires exclusive whole souled devotion...this involves many things...not just gods....that people worship..
> 
> you may want to read the account of Elijah, and the offering to BAAL and an offering of the true god...how that went...


I think that you are overlooking the fact that "we" do not believe what is written in the Bible to be any more than man's writings about a cultures religious journey that spans 1500+ years. It certainly incudes some real people, some real places, some real events intertwined with superstitious embellishment along with grand claims of worldwide events that have been proven to have never actually taken place outside of the pages of the Bible.
You cannot keep referring us to scripture as if 1., we don't already know about it and 2. as if using scripture as it's own source somehow adds to it's validity and is "proof" of anything.
To say that we have Been There and Done That in here over the years would be a gross understatement. 
We enjoy a good discussion and especially with someone who has an apologetic talent where they can take what is in the Bible and explain it further using non biblical examples. We applaud anyone who makes a biblical claim and then has the resources to back it up using examples outside of the Bible.

All you are doing here is the equivalent of being a Falcons (or insert any team,religion, vehicle, etc etc) fan, telling us that the Falcons are the best football team ever, and when asked to back up your claim you refer us to the Official Falcons Program to read the biased Pro Falcons print inside.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 10, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Not jealous of man made gods....but he requires exclusive whole souled devotion...this involves many things...not just gods....that people worship..
> 
> you may want to read the account of Elijah, and the offering to BAAL and an offering of the true god...how that went...


So the God who created man is jealous should the men that he created and whom He knows may worship other things......
Oh never mind. Its impossible for you to even consider how wacky that sounds.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 10, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I think that you are overlooking the fact that "we" do not believe what is written in the Bible to be any more than man's writings about a cultures religious journey that spans 1500+ years. It certainly incudes some real people, some real places, some real events intertwined with superstitious embellishment along with grand claims of worldwide events that have been proven to have never actually taken place outside of the pages of the Bible.
> You cannot keep referring us to scripture as if 1., we don't already know about it and 2. as if using scripture as it's own source somehow adds to it's validity and is "proof" of anything.
> To say that we have Been There and Done That in here over the years would be a gross understatement.
> We enjoy a good discussion and especially with someone who has an apologetic talent where they can take what is in the Bible and explain it further using non biblical examples. We applaud anyone who makes a biblical claim and then has the resources to back it up using examples outside of the Bible.
> ...


All we are going to get is the regurgitation of Scripture. Can only assume thats all he's capable of or has the desire for.
Personally, I'm out.


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## bullethead (Mar 10, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> All we are going to get is the regurgitation of Scripture. Can only assume thats all he's capable of or has the desire for.
> Personally, I'm out.


I agree. I do like to explain what works and what doesn't in case he or anyone is taking the basic approach thinking we aren't ready for more. I am trying to give him the benefit of doubt but I also am thinking along your lines.
After asking him multiple direct questions and getting scripture referrals as answers I am confident we have another person that underestimated the counter point side.


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## kmh1031 (Mar 10, 2022)

And what you are perhaps forgetting or refusing to acknowledge is the fact that after reading and studying the Bible, and also  appreciating the science, and accurate history, prophesies, and nore

We have concluded that there is a heavenly being, a God… a loving and living god!  One that has in past and will in future solve ALL mankind’s issues even war and death.
 So yes… we quote scripture to prove each point! As it is Gods word…
so this discussion is.. like Skinners box and the Chicken!


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## Spotlite (Mar 10, 2022)

> For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name _is_ Jealous, _is_ a jealous God:
> Seems like this is simply acknowledging other gods. Or is the Christian God jealous of man made gods?
> Now go ahead, tell me how it isnt that simple and doesnt mean what it says





kmh1031 said:


> Not jealous of man made gods....but he requires exclusive whole souled devotion...this involves many things...not just gods....that people worship..
> 
> you may want to read the account of Elijah, and the offering to BAAL and an offering of the true god...how that went...



A good response to Walt would / could be this:

"It is true that God acknowledges "other gods". Other gods are anything that you put before God, anything besides God that is worshiped and recognizing that is not empowering those "gods". Jesus taught that we should love one another and live together in unity. Jealousy can turn sinful when it desires something that is not yours and can cause strife and division. Since we are God`s creation we are His and His desire for His creation is to love only Him"


But you gotta keep in mind the below. Scripture alone is not going to be taken as "the answer" here.



> I think that you are overlooking the fact that "we" do not believe what is written in the Bible to be any more than man's writings about a cultures religious journey that spans 1500+ years


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## bullethead (Mar 10, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> And what you are perhaps forgetting or refusing to acknowledge is the fact that after reading and studying the Bible, and also  appreciating the science, and accurate history, prophesies, and nore
> 
> We have concluded that there is a heavenly being, a God… a loving and living god!  One that has in past and will in future solve ALL mankind’s issues even war and death.
> So yes… we quote scripture to prove each point! As it is Gods word…
> so this discussion is.. like Skinners box and the Chicken!


The "we" that you include yourself in is a lot more "we" than Christians.
For the very same reasons you believe the Bible people of other religions believe in their Holy Books and stories.
For the same reasons you dismiss theirs they dismiss yours.
Outside of the playground "my invisible buddy is greater than your invisible buddy" back and forth none of you have ever been able to prove the existence of any god nor prove that many events which are told in these stories ever occured outside of its pages.
We do not question your beliefs or the worth you place on scripture but if you want to convince us of anything scripture does not work. We do not acknowledge the validity of the Bible any more than you acknowledge the validity of the Quran. 
You believe in one more God than we do and you reject the others for the same reasons we reject yours.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 10, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> And what you are perhaps forgetting or refusing to acknowledge is the fact that after reading and studying the Bible, and also  appreciating the science, and accurate history, prophesies, and nore
> 
> We have concluded that there is a heavenly being, a God… a loving and living god!  One that has in past and will in future solve ALL mankind’s issues even war and death.
> So yes… we quote scripture to prove each point! As it is Gods word…
> so this discussion is.. like Skinners box and the Chicken!



I'm not following you here. The science and history of the bible will not lead to the conclusion that there is a loving god. The science and (in many cases) history have been proven wrong over the centuries. If you want to believe there is a loving god, that is a matter of faith not facts, because the bible hard "facts" are false in many cases, or perhaps misinterpreted or never intended to be taken literally.

For example:
"Matthew 4:8: Again the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor."

the last time I checked the earth is round. Thus no matter how high you go (on any fixed point on the earth) you could never see what's beyond the horizon. Fully half the earth would be hidden from view. 

"Psalms 104:5 He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved."

The earth is zipping through space, orbiting the sun.

Also rainbows didn't begin when god put the first one in the sky to show that he wouldn't flood the world again. Rainbows are light being refracted through water - or something like that, but they are nothing mystical!

The bible says god set the sand as a boundary for the seas. Well that didn't pan out when he flooded the world, did it? And if true, then global warming will be kept in check by sand - good to know!

The skies are not "as solid as a metal mirror" and they get less "solid" as you gain altitude until the atmosphere is gone completely. 

The bible groups bats with birds (both can fly, right?) but birds and mammals are on a completely different evolutionary path. 

There are countless examples of scientific and historical inaccuracies AS SHOULD BE EXPECTED SINCE IT WAS WRITTEN/COMPILED by what people knew at the time.


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## kmh1031 (Mar 10, 2022)

U are taking all scriptures literal… and applying it to ur underatanding

Devil controls all the govts and kingdoms… figuratively or on a vision he showed them. 1John 5:19

We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.

The earth will stand to time indefinite nothing will make it totter or destroyed… yes zipping through space.. and Bible said earth round 4500 yrs ago

Rainbows correct,  but with the water canapy over the earth making the earth a greenhouse.. there were no rainbows untill after the flood.. when the water canapy poured on earth 

again… he has set the boundaries for the oceans…  but can use his active force to do anything..


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## bullethead (Mar 10, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> U are taking all scriptures literal… and applying it to ur underatanding
> 
> Devil controls all the govts and kingdoms… figuratively or on a vision he showed them. 1John 5:19
> 
> ...


Are the words of your God literal or figurative?


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 10, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> U are taking all scriptures literal… and applying it to ur underatanding
> 
> Devil controls all the govts and kingdoms… figuratively or on a vision he showed them. 1John 5:19
> 
> ...



Isiaha 40:22 says god sits upon *the circle *of the earth. There are Hebrew words that translate into "ball" as in a sphere, but the Hebrew word for circle was used. 

And there is another verse which says that the circle was "inscribed upon the face of the deep" as with a compass. Yes, the compass (like you can use to draw a circle) existed at the time, and it was designed to draw or inscribe a one dimensional circle on a flat surface. 

BTW no "water canopy" could have held enough water vapor to induce rain for 40 days and 40 nights. Some google research can explain the science behind that much better than I can.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 10, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Are the words of your God literal or figurative?



If modern science disproves the words, then the words are figurative. 
Talk about a bullet-proof strategy for winning any argument!


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## kmh1031 (Mar 10, 2022)

True… was
Not just the water canopy but every spring, etc the Bible says 
So with all that combined it evidently was all the water needed


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## kmh1031 (Mar 10, 2022)

Interestingly no one has disproved the existence of god here… just spouted their individual reasons the Bible a myth book,
And tried to disprove a few of my statements….
Yes… if u take the Bible 100% literal then U will not understand it… but if that is ur stance… and little reasoning involved perhaps you were not meant to understand it


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 10, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> True… was
> Not just the water canopy but every spring, etc the Bible says
> So with all that combined it evidently was all the water needed



yes I realize that the bible claims this. Crunch the numbers for the amount of water needed to flood the entire world up to the tallest mountains in the region of the Ararat mountains (14K feet or so) combined with some serious research and you may see why I am skeptical of the flood event.


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## bullethead (Mar 10, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> True… was
> Not just the water canopy but every spring, etc the Bible says
> So with all that combined it evidently was all the water needed


Only problem is, while there was a flood, it was localized. It was not world wide. Do you have an understanding of how springs work? They do not form from a water mass in the center of the earth. The Earth is metal and liquid metal surrounded by mantle and crust.
Spring water is in the crust and is ever changing between liquid, vapor and ice. Only in fairy tales is there enough water in the Earth and above it to flood the Earth.


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## bullethead (Mar 10, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Interestingly no one has disproved the existence of god here… just spouted their individual reasons the Bible a myth book,
> And tried to disprove a few of my statements….
> Yes… if u take the Bible 100% literal then U will not understand it… but if that is ur stance… and little reasoning involved perhaps you were not meant to understand it


If your god exists, or any god, where are they hiding? We cannot prove what exists in imagination. We cannot prove your god doesn't exist no more than you can prove every other god doesn't exist. If you can prove the Flying Spaghetti Monster does not exist please do so. If not get in line with other rational people who cannot prove Leprechauns ,Bigfoot, Wherewolves, The Lochness Monster, Flying Pigs, and everything else conjured up in the minds of individuals do not exist.
On the other hand, Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Evidence and you are thr one claiming an existence,  not us. All we ask is that you show us what is claimed to be the Ultimate Truth.  I can show you many real things easily.  Why cant you show us your god?


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 10, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Interestingly no one has disproved the existence of god here… just spouted their individual reasons the Bible a myth book,
> And tried to disprove a few of my statements….
> Yes… if u take the Bible 100% literal then U will not understand it… but if that is ur stance… and little reasoning involved perhaps you were not meant to understand it



I can't disprove the existence of bigfoot either. Nobody has even been able to do that. I can give my reasons why bigfoot most likely doesn't exist, but many people have claimed to have encountered bigfoot though they have no solid proof that bigfoot exists.

Anyway, let me see if I'm understanding you: everything in the bible isn't meant to be taken literally, that's why I don't understand it. By that reasoning if what is meant to be taken literally in the bible will vary between religions, denominations, generations*,
and individuals, then everyone's level of understanding will be different, and thus possibly open to being misinterpreted. That is really not a good way to spread the most important information the world will ever need to know. 

* almost nobody with an average education alive today believes that* everything *in the bible is to be taken literally. A few generations ago people thought nearly every single thing was literal. A few hundred years ago people thought that 100 percent of the bible was literal because the education level, critical thinking skills and viewpoint of society in general was different.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 10, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Only problem is, while there was a flood, it was localized. It was not world wide. Do you have an understanding of how springs work? They do not form from a water mass in the center of the earth. The Earth is metal and liquid metal surrounded by mantle and crust.
> Spring water is in the crust and is ever changing between liquid, vapor and ice. Only in fairy tales is there enough water in the Earth and above it to flood the Earth.



but god never knew all that geology and science mumbo-jumbo when he inspired mankind to write & compile the bible stories.  It was a long time ago. 
That's why it sounds like a fairy tale!


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## 660griz (Mar 11, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Interestingly no one has disproved the existence of god here… just spouted their individual reasons the Bible a myth book,


Read my signature.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 11, 2022)

Okay here's the deal with "disproving" god. You have probably heard this before:
"YOU CAN'T DISPROVE A NEGATIVE". 

So what does that mean? *It means you cannot disprove what isn't there*. You can't hit a moving target, or an invisible target. 

Not saying there is no god, but it would seem that god is a "concept" or an "idea" or even a "philosophy". None of these things can be disproved because you can't scientifically examine them. You can't hold a concept in your hand or put an idea in a box. A philosophy is kept alive (so to speak) by it's followers WHO HAVE FAITH in that philosophy. I think it says in the bible that "faith is believing in sights unseen" or something like that. That is exactly right! 

That is why god and science/reality will never have to agree, and they should never have to agree. As knowledge and technology advance, more and more the bible seems less literal. So now it's a point of figuring out what is fact and what is fiction in the bible for those followers interested in doing that. The bigger picture is _*why*_ god does what he does, says what he says (as revealed through the bible), etc.etc. 

The bible and god can mean different things to different people. If you want to see god's hypocrisy, anger, violence, cruelty etc. the bible is full of it. If you want to see god's love, the bible is full of that too. It's all about what kind of spin you put on what the bible says.


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## Spotlite (Mar 11, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Okay here's the deal with "disproving" god. You have probably heard this before:
> "YOU CAN'T DISPROVE A NEGATIVE".
> 
> So what does that mean? *It means you cannot disprove what isn't there*. You can't hit a moving target, or an invisible target.
> ...





> The bible and god can mean different things to different people. If you want to see god's hypocrisy, anger, violence, cruelty etc. the bible is full of it. If you want to see god's love, the bible is full of that too. *It's all about what kind of spin you put on what the bible says*.


Yup - for believers and non believers.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 11, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Yup - for believers and non believers.


Very true ^
I think thats where indoctrination plays a big role.
Some are indoctrinated to only see the good and have no desire to see anything else.
Some are indoctrinated to only see the bad and have no desire to see anything else.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 11, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Okay here's the deal with "disproving" god. You have probably heard this before:
> "YOU CAN'T DISPROVE A NEGATIVE".
> 
> So what does that mean? *It means you cannot disprove what isn't there*. You can't hit a moving target, or an invisible target.
> ...


Good post.


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## Baroque Brass (Mar 11, 2022)

When I was ten or so years old, my best friend’s Dad suddenly got religion, started studying the Bible, declared himself a preacher and even started a church. For them it was church Sunday morning and evening, and on Wednesday night for bible study. Since my family seldom attended church, this new preacher decided I should be going with them because I needed to hear the word of god. I didn’t mind at first, I got to hang out with my buddy. After a while it began to get old, and when they started running up and down the aisle screaming and speaking in tongues, it scared the bejeebers out of me. When I finally got my parents to tell them I wouldn’t be going anymore, I wanted no part of church. When I got married, my wife had attended church with her grandmother and looked forward to it so she was used to church. I didn’t want to go and it caused more than one argument between us. Then when our daughter was born, my wife insisted that we start attending which I would do to avoid an argument. After a while I started to make friends and didn’t really mind going. Since I have a technical background, I was asked to help in operating the sound and lights on Sunday mornings. After a few years of that, someone nominated me to be a deacon. (I didn’t want to be a deacon and told the senior pastor that.) He assured me I’d do a fine job and would have lots of help. Next thing I know I’m going to men’s bible study and Sunday school. I’ve always been a skeptic but I began reading the Bible. I immediately began noticing things didn’t make sense and asked the senior pastor about some of them. He said there are parts of the Bible he couldn’t explain. (If a man that’s been to seminary school doesn’t understand it how can I be expected to?) My wife would tell me that parts of the Bible are not to be taken literally. I asked her why, if the Bible is the Christians handbook, shouldn’t it be taken literally. She couldn’t answer that. I gave up on reading the Bible when I got to the parts about talking snakes and donkeys. Like others have said, if the Bible is the guidebook, it should be clear and concise, not something that can be interpreted in many ways.

I no longer attend church and don’t have a need for it. I’m comfortable as a non believer. When I hear of a three year old girl being raped and murdered, I certainly have to question why an omnipotent, all loving god didn’t intervene on the little girl’s behalf. Because man has free will? Tell that to the little girl.

I’m not knocking religion, a person has the right to believe whatever he chooses. That same person has the right to not believe, and I think that’s what it comes down to. It’s not a matter of education or intelligence that makes a person believe or not believe. It’s a choice, plain and simple. At least it is to me.


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## kmh1031 (Mar 11, 2022)

I get it and sorry for late response 
Working and out of town!

But u have to know/learn the theme of Bible as to why god does not or did not intervene. 
It all goes back to garden of Eden, gods right to rule, Satan and the issue of universal sovereignty.
 is man better off without God? that was the issue the Devil raised to eve.. 
yes he could have zapped Satan and Eve and started over… 
Satan raised this issue and billions of angels involved in the issue… witnessed the rebellion..
Is man better off?
can man rule himself better without god? The answer is obvious after all kinds of govts and man is always in turmoil and no better off than  in Eden without god… 
The solution was set at Gen 3:16, Dan 2:44, and more…
But since no one here believes on the Bible then this makes no sense . guess we all will find out soon..
If The Bible is correct and has the answer or we simply die…


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## WaltL1 (Mar 11, 2022)

Baroque Brass said:


> When I was ten or so years old, my best friend’s Dad suddenly got religion, started studying the Bible, declared himself a preacher and even started a church. For them it was church Sunday morning and evening, and on Wednesday night for bible study. Since my family seldom attended church, this new preacher decided I should be going with them because I needed to hear the word of god. I didn’t mind at first, I got to hang out with my buddy. After a while it began to get old, and when they started running up and down the aisle screaming and speaking in tongues, it scared the bejeebers out of me. When I finally got my parents to tell them I wouldn’t be going anymore, I wanted no part of church. When I got married, my wife had attended church with her grandmother and looked forward to it so she was used to church. I didn’t want to go and it caused more than one argument between us. Then when our daughter was born, my wife insisted that we start attending which I would do to avoid an argument. After a while I started to make friends and didn’t really mind going. Since I have a technical background, I was asked to help in operating the sound and lights on Sunday mornings. After a few years of that, someone nominated me to be a deacon. (I didn’t want to be a deacon and told the senior pastor that.) He assured me I’d do a fine job and would have lots of help. Next thing I know I’m going to men’s bible study and Sunday school. I’ve always been a skeptic but I began reading the Bible. I immediately began noticing things didn’t make sense and asked the senior pastor about some of them. He said there are parts of the Bible he couldn’t explain. (If a man that’s been to seminary school doesn’t understand it how can I be expected to?) My wife would tell me that parts of the Bible are not to be taken literally. I asked her why, if the Bible is the Christians handbook, shouldn’t it be taken literally. She couldn’t answer that. I gave up on reading the Bible when I got to the parts about talking snakes and donkeys. Like others have said, if the Bible is the guidebook, it should be clear and concise, not something that can be interpreted in many ways.
> 
> I no longer attend church and don’t have a need for it. I’m comfortable as a non believer. When I hear of a three year old girl being raped and murdered, I certainly have to question why an omnipotent, all loving god didn’t intervene on the little girl’s behalf. Because man has free will? Tell that to the little girl.
> 
> I’m not knocking religion, a person has the right to believe whatever he chooses. That same person has the right to not believe, and I think that’s what it comes down to. It’s not a matter of education or intelligence that makes a person believe or not believe. It’s a choice, plain and simple. At least it is to me.


You were never religious/attended church because you wanted to be.
I think it ended in the only way it could.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 11, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> I get it and sorry for late response
> Working and out of town!
> 
> But u have to know/learn the theme of Bible as to why god does not or did not intervene.
> ...



some men are better off without god. Some men are better off with god. Some very religious countries are in "turmoil" and some countries with very few religious citizens are doing quite well and are as stable as can be.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 11, 2022)

"I no longer attend church and don’t have a need for it. I’m comfortable as a non believer. When I hear of a three year old girl being raped and murdered, I certainly have to question why an omnipotent, all loving god didn’t intervene on the little girl’s behalf. Because man has free will? Tell that to the little girl." - Baroque Brass

good point. God doesn't impress me with parting the Red Sea, turning water into wine, etc. I would be happy with breaking out the windows of a hot car with a toddler trapped inside.


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## Baroque Brass (Mar 12, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> You were never religious/attended church because you wanted to be.
> I think it ended in the only way it could.


Very good point, Walt, and I think you’re exactly right.


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## Baroque Brass (Mar 12, 2022)

KMH1031 said, “can man rule himself better without god?”. I think that’s up to the individual. I know many people that aren’t religious, yet live within the law and their own set of morals and standards and participate as expected in modern, civilized society. I don’t think a belief in god is required to be a good person. Would we be better as a society if everyone lived according to the teachings of Christianity and the fear of eternal torture? Probably so. I like to think there would at least be less crime.


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## kmh1031 (Mar 12, 2022)

Good comments 
But my point was… mankind is not better without god.. look at the world,  the govts, the mess they have created as opposed to following the Bible.
Even if not religious one said on here things would perhaps be better…. And that is the point
Man cannot rule themselves successfully,


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## NCHillbilly (Mar 12, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Good comments
> But my point was… mankind is not better without god.. look at the world,  the govts, the mess they have created as opposed to following the Bible.
> Even if not religious one said on here things would perhaps be better…. And that is the point
> Man cannot rule themselves successfully,


Look at the mess they created following the Bible. The Dark Ages were dark for a reason, the inflexible dominance of the Church in the governments of Europe being one of the main reasons. The Spanish Inquisition was a lovely time that came from following the Bible, ditto for the Salem witch trials, etc.


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## kmh1031 (Mar 12, 2022)

Point is they did not follow the Bible!
In no way shape or form, and as stated… really very few today do… 
Look at mess false religion has made…


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## NCHillbilly (Mar 12, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Point is they did not follow the Bible!
> In no way shape or form, and as stated… really very few today do…
> Look at mess false religion has made…


How do you feel about every other religion that thinks your religion is a false religion? If you had been born in Iraq instead of America, you would think Islam is the true religion and Christianity is false, and would be backing up your arguments with quoting scripture from the Quran and saying that the world's problems came from not following it's teachings. Ditto if you were born in India, you would be a Hindu.

I was raised by a Baptist preacher. Quoting writings from the Big Book o' Hebrew Folklore doesn't convince me of anything. If you want to learn to actually participate in a logical debate, take a lesson from Spotlite or some of the other Christian members of this forum who use logic as a basis for discussion, not scripture.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 12, 2022)

Baroque Brass said:


> KMH1031 said, “can man rule himself better without god?”. I think that’s up to the individual. I know many people that aren’t religious, yet live within the law and their own set of morals and standards and participate as expected in modern, civilized society. I don’t think a belief in god is required to be a good person. Would we be better as a society if everyone lived according to the teachings of Christianity and the fear of eternal torture? Probably so. I like to think there would at least be less crime.



America is already one of the most religious (as far as church attendance) countries in the developed world, and the lowest rate of full-blown atheists, yet our crime rate (especially violent crime rate) is through the roof. Obviously all our well attended Christian churches use the same bibles that warn people about the hot place, so why don't we behave as if we believe what we hear & read?


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## WaltL1 (Mar 12, 2022)

Baroque Brass said:


> KMH1031 said, “can man rule himself better without god?”. I think that’s up to the individual. I know many people that aren’t religious, yet live within the law and their own set of morals and standards and participate as expected in modern, civilized society. I don’t think a belief in god is required to be a good person. Would we be better as a society if everyone lived according to the teachings of Christianity and the fear of eternal torture? Probably so. I like to think there would at least be less crime.





> I like to think there would at least be less crime


.


> On average, the chaplains surveyed say that Christians as a whole make up about* two-thirds* of the inmate population in the facilities where they work.


Obviously not afraid of eternal torture ^


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## Spotlite (Mar 12, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> .
> 
> Obviously not afraid of eternal torture ^


Oh yea “this’ll help convince them I’m innocent” by screaming I’m Christian and “didn’t do it” when the handcuffs shut lol ?


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## WaltL1 (Mar 12, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Oh yea “this’ll help convince them I’m innocent” by screaming I’m Christian and “didn’t do it” when the handcuffs shut lol ?


Or "finding God" the day before they go in front of the parole board hoping it will help them get approved for parole.


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## kmh1031 (Mar 12, 2022)

I agree on the point US is a Christian country but that does not mean they follow the Bible…
We can look at corrupt religion today, the leaders…who use the Bible for their own gain, but are corrupt, immoral, deceitful, bless wars on both sides…and teach false teachings, and do not hold their members accountable but look the other way on wrongdoing just so they can get the $$$$.
They do not teach the Bible truths….represent The teachings of Jesus, his father (separate beings) or the Bible..

so I see why many are agnostic or atheist today as the examples u have if remotely interested…are disgusting hypocrites regardless if u think the Bible from god our just a book..
But not all religions, or people are that way… as the Bible and its truths…have a different message and one of truth for those that can open their minds and hearts to it


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## bullethead (Mar 12, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Good comments
> But my point was… mankind is not better without god.. look at the world,  the govts, the mess they have created as opposed to following the Bible.
> Even if not religious one said on here things would perhaps be better…. And that is the point
> Man cannot rule themselves successfully,


Within the pages of the Bible which span 1500 years that God was active in the world and directly invoved with and among those people the writings show that with god, governments were still a mess, people did immoral things, wars were constant, slavery was instructed, LOTS of begatting going on, rape, murder, torture, and someone was always plotting against somebody else.
I don't think you are capable of seeing certain things that are right there in the Bible. You paint such a rosey picture about a god's involvement but it was a chaotic mess and he was masterminding most of it.
You will really need to cherry pick the highlights if you think "following" the bible is a benefit to mankind.


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## 660griz (Mar 15, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Or "finding God" the day before they go in front of the parole board hoping it will help them get approved for parole.


Exactly. Jeffrey Dahmer was baptized in prison so there are some benefits of being an atheist.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 15, 2022)

660griz said:


> Exactly. Jeffrey Dahmer was baptized in prison so there are some benefits of being an atheist.



he was baptized in prison? How long did they hold his head underwater? Just curious!


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## 660griz (Mar 15, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> he was baptized in prison? How long did they hold his head underwater? Just curious!


They certainly could have killed two birds with one stone.


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## ky55 (Mar 15, 2022)

660griz said:


> They certainly could have killed two birds with one stone.



God dropped a dime on him and he got a clubbing instead. 

“The man who did kill Dahmer, Christopher Scarver, was a convicted murder and diagnosed psychopath who later said God had told him to carry our Dahmer's slaying.”

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSN0842299020061211


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 16, 2022)

ky55 said:


> God dropped a dime on him and he got a clubbing instead.
> 
> “The man who did kill Dahmer, Christopher Scarver, was a convicted murder and diagnosed psychopath who later said God had told him to carry our Dahmer's slaying.”
> 
> https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSN0842299020061211



makes sense! In the bible god told his people to do way, way, way worse things and these people were made out to be great heroes because they did god's work.


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## ky55 (Mar 16, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> makes sense! In the bible god told his people to do way, way, way worse things and these people were made out to be great heroes because they did god's work.



Yes, and He got a two-fer this time. Dahmer’s buddy on the bathroom cleaning detail got whacked in the process. 
Collateral damage was pretty common in God’s hits in the Bible too.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 16, 2022)

ky55 said:


> Yes, and He got a two-fer this time. Dahmer’s buddy on the bathroom cleaning detail got whacked in the process.
> Collateral damage was pretty common in God’s hits in the Bible too.



The great flood would be a good example!  So you're telling me that other than the Noah's Ark crew EVERYBODY was super duper wicked and needed to die? I don't think they made much of an effort to scour the neighborhood for good folks.


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## kmh1031 (Mar 16, 2022)

If u read the account…
Noah preached of destruction Via a flood, for over 90 years as he and family built ark.
All men were wicked and would not heed the warning..
very wicked times.. some were the offspring of materlized rebellious angels and earthly women… u know the account in the “book of myths”

Jesus another myth….said… and just as in the days of Noah… eating and drinking and ……. Until the flood came and swept them all away.. so the conclusion of the system of things will be..
we r on those times now

Ungodly, violent humans and all those who were so indifferent that they refused to take note of God’s warning were destroyed similar today.. while the warning is going out..

Oh… and re the flood that never happened…
Geologists studying the landscape of the northwestern United States believe that as many as 100 ancient catastrophic floods once washed over the area.
One such flood is said to have roared through the region with a wall of water 2,000 feet  high, traveling at 65 miles an hour—a flood of 500 cubic miles of water, weighing more than two trillion tons.
Similar findings have led other scientists to believe that a global flood is a distinct possibility.

Have at it… I’m watching a western


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## WaltL1 (Mar 16, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> If u read the account…
> Noah preached of destruction Via a flood, for over 90 years as he and family built ark.
> All men were wicked and would not heed the warning..
> very wicked times.. some were the offspring of materlized rebellious angels and earthly women… u know the account in the “book of myths”
> ...





> All men were wicked and would not heed the warning..


Especially all those wicked little kids and wicked little unborn fetuses.
It baffles me how believers can "sanitize" a story of near genocide and turn it into "well they deserved it". Its very disturbing in my opinion.


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## bullethead (Mar 16, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> If u read the account…
> Noah preached of destruction Via a flood, for over 90 years as he and family built ark.
> All men were wicked and would not heed the warning..
> very wicked times.. some were the offspring of materlized rebellious angels and earthly women… u know the account in the “book of myths”
> ...


The Earth is almost 14 billion years old. At one time all the land was under water until it was formed from pushing up through the depths of the Earth. Why isn't the evidence you say the geologists found EVERYWHERE if the flood was EVERYWHERE?
Ask those geologists why the Egyptians,  Chinese and the other major cultures in that general area during "the flood" kept on recording history,  building, farming,  traveling, having children and everything else that they have always done. Could those things be done underwater?

https://www.wffjtv.com/fte/060519.html


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## ky55 (Mar 16, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> The great flood would be a good example!  So you're telling me that other than the Noah's Ark crew EVERYBODY was super duper wicked and needed to die? I don't think they made much of an effort to scour the neighborhood for good folks.



Yep, the flood was what I had in mind on the collateral damage. 
Then Noah’s family begat each other enough to repopulate the entire earth.


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## bullethead (Mar 16, 2022)

ky55 said:


> Yep, the flood was what I had in mind on the collateral damage.
> Then Noah’s family begat each other enough to repopulate the entire earth.


And in other Miracle News, Our DNA doesn't trace back to them.


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## kmh1031 (Mar 16, 2022)

I think u are about to be baffled again… as  without a though study, u most likely will not get it.
Gods righteous decisions always come with a warning to rid earth of extremely unrighteous, murdeous people .
Read the account… and he gave them 90+ years 
Just like today… the warning is going out and has for years… yet many are like those in Noah’s day.. “ they took no note” ridiculed Noah for an ark building… until the day it began to rain… 
Same today… 
And we can go on and on and on… and the only one who will say I told u so… will be last man standing… u or true Christian’s 
So it is a time game for awhile


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## kmh1031 (Mar 16, 2022)

That is what u choose to believe that they survived… 
Truly only 8 survived…on the entire world


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## kmh1031 (Mar 16, 2022)

Carry on men…. And we will see who is right and who is not I guess..


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## ky55 (Mar 16, 2022)

bullethead said:


> And in other Miracle News, Our DNA doesn't trace back to them.



Shouldn’t we be a straight trunk on a family tree with zero branches?


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## ky55 (Mar 16, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Carry on men…. And we will see who is right and who is not I guess..



When will we see that, and how will we know?


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 16, 2022)

ky55 said:


> Yep, the flood was what I had in mind on the collateral damage.
> Then Noah’s family begat each other enough to repopulate the entire earth.



repopulate the earth? Nice work if you can get it, as long as I get to pick my own "begat" partners!


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## bullethead (Mar 16, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> I think u are about to be baffled again… as  without a though study, u most likely will not get it.
> Gods righteous decisions always come with a warning to rid earth of extremely unrighteous, murdeous people .
> Read the account… and he gave them 90+ years
> Just like today… the warning is going out and has for years… yet many are like those in Noah’s day.. “ they took no note” ridiculed Noah for an ark building… until the day it began to rain…
> ...


How did god get that message all over the world?


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## bullethead (Mar 16, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> That is what u choose to believe that they survived…
> Truly only 8 survived…on the entire world


Historical records everywhere that was not affected by the local flood refute what you think was worldwide.
Life everywhere else went on.


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## kmh1031 (Mar 16, 2022)

In almost every culture to this day… their is stories of a global flood… check it out


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## kmh1031 (Mar 16, 2022)

[at that time the complete world was not entirely populated… not a hard task 
as in today… 

Matt 24:14 is being fullfilled in almost every land nation and tongue today… amd via internet.. Bible studies, interest, and more… 
Some listen and some dontZzz just in Noah’s day


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## kmh1031 (Mar 16, 2022)

And I answer to a previous question…. how will u know …
EZ 25 17 shows that all will know


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## kmh1031 (Mar 16, 2022)

Regarding the DNA of  lab and family to today… 
This is interesting… 

https://www.icr.org/article/new-dna-study-confirms-noah


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 16, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> In almost every culture to this day… their is stories of a global flood… check it out


 
yes, many cultures from all over the world have a "flood" story because floods are a pretty common thing on planet earth. But that doesn't mean there was a "world" flood by any means! All these different cultures had no idea that the world was much bigger than wherever they or their members could travel to on foot or in small boats. 

The end of the most recent ice age probably caused a lot of major flooding too, and being only 10K years ago no doubt a lot of stories got passed along to the descendants of those who went through it.


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## kmh1031 (Mar 16, 2022)

Ok…


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 16, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Regarding the DNA of  lab and family to today…
> This is interesting…
> 
> https://www.icr.org/article/new-dna-study-confirms-noah



yes quite interesting, as is this:

https://ncse.ngo/impossible-voyage-noahs-ark


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## kmh1031 (Mar 16, 2022)

Not quite as..


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## WaltL1 (Mar 17, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> I think u are about to be baffled again… as  without a though study, u most likely will not get it.
> Gods righteous decisions always come with a warning to rid earth of extremely unrighteous, murdeous people .
> Read the account… and he gave them 90+ years
> Just like today… the warning is going out and has for years… yet many are like those in Noah’s day.. “ they took no note” ridiculed Noah for an ark building… until the day it began to rain…
> ...


Very disturbing.


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## kmh1031 (Mar 17, 2022)

What is disturbing is how exact Jesus  words are for our day ….. for the last days …. And few are paying attention to his words…  

Jesus answered with his future presence also in mind.
 Since that presence would be associated with “the conclusion of the system of things” existing at that time, his reply to his dicies also pointed to the distant future. Matt 13-24-30, 36-43

And so ues…while earthquakes did precede the end of the Jewish system of things back in 70 C.E., a far greater future fulfillment was certain as regards Jesus’ forecast: “*There will be great earthquakes.*

Luke 21:11 There will be great earthquakes, and in one place after another food shortages and pestilences;+ and there will be fearful sights and from heaven great signs.

Mark 13:3-8 3 
As he was sitting on the Mount of Olives with the temple in view, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked him privately: 4 “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are to come to a conclusion?”+ 5 So Jesus began to tell them: “*Look out that nobody misleads you*.+6 Many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and will mislead many. 7 Moreover, when you hear of wars and reports of wars, do not be alarmed; these things must take place, but the end is not yet.
8 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom; 
there will be earthquakes in one place after another; there will also be food shortages. These are a beginning of pangs of distress.

That is disturbing….. as few see the prophesy being fullfilled today..


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> In almost every culture to this day… their is stories of a global flood… check it out


Many cultures have flood stories. Most populations of people had to live near water to survive. It stands to reason that when you live near water you will experience flooding.

Spain had no idea that the North American Continent existed in the 1400s. Columbus thought he landed in India. That was "only" 600 years ago.Tell us, how would cultures in 2250bce  (4,000 years ago) know anything about what was happening elsewhere in the world?  What happened back then was large scale worldwide in their views because they knew of nothing else. On the actual world scale it was a small localized event. Those events happened then as they continue to happen today. Had the people of New Orleans experienced the Flooding they had 1000 years earlier, they would have said it was worldwide also.


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2022)

http://www.awitness.org/contrabib/torah/flood.html


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> What is disturbing is how exact Jesus  words are for our day ….. for the last days …. And few are paying attention to his words…
> 
> Jesus answered with his future presence also in mind.
> Since that presence would be associated with “the conclusion of the system of things” existing at that time, his reply to his dicies also pointed to the distant future. Matt 13-24-30, 36-43
> ...


It seems far more disturbing that you are giddy and cannot wait for the beginning of the end.
Every year, for thousands of years, the doomsday fan club has been saying the end of times has started.  They are right. An asteroid may hit the earth tomorrow or the sun may burn out in a few more billion years, possibly a nuclear war may happen soon. Something catastrophic will happen. And there are many people who cannot wait to link it to their cultures or their religions ancient callings for it just so they can say I Told You So as they are treading water right along side everyone else.


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2022)

https://www.contradictionsinthebibl...re-causes/xviii-the-two-stories-of-the-flood#:.


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## ky55 (Mar 17, 2022)

bullethead said:


> It seems far more disturbing that you are giddy and cannot wait for the beginning of the end.
> Every year, for thousands of years, the doomsday fan club has been saying the end of times has started.  They are right. An asteroid may hit the earth tomorrow or the sun may burn out in a few more billion years, possibly a nuclear war may happen soon. Something catastrophic will happen. And there are many people who cannot wait to link it to their cultures or their religions ancient callings for it just so they can say I Told You So as they are treading water right along side everyone else.



And some will be rejoicing while others are begging for a drink of water.
That’s really disturbing.
“You just wait, you’ll see!”


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## NCHillbilly (Mar 17, 2022)

ky55 said:


> And some will be rejoicing while others are begging for a drink of water.
> That’s really disturbing.
> “You just wait, you’ll see!”


That's that Christian love. "I rejoice at you suffering because you didn't agree with my philosophy!"


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## kmh1031 (Mar 17, 2022)

No, I am not rejoicing....at all...Basically I am letting all know of the bible teachings, and the prophesies, that are being fulfilled in our day...

God is not vengeful, and note 1st Peter 3:9 to counter your point...

"God is not slow concerning his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance"

While God wants everyone to turn to doing good, he knows that many will never do so.
If he never acted against those determined to do bad things, or not follow his commandments, or his will, then he would be no different from a ruler who makes laws (laws that benefit all people) without enforcing them, allowing injustice and suffering to flourish indefinitely Ecc 8:11. 

On the other hand….by us knowing that God will not tolerate wickedness forever gives us a sound hope for the future. 

God has promised to remove those who persist in evil deeds, so that “the meek ones” can enjoy eternal life on earth as he originally intended, Ps 37:10-11
At the end of the day..it is everyone's call to


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## ky55 (Mar 17, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Regarding the DNA of  lab and family to today…
> This is interesting…
> 
> https://www.icr.org/article/new-dna-study-confirms-noah



This review of the author(“Bible-believing molecular biologist Dr. Nathaniel Jeanson”) is interesting too:

http://www.monofilia.org/blog/2018/9/11/t04ffju3cm7d19aspiy1broiiq1w8d

I thought I smelled a “Ham” in the oven.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 17, 2022)

bullethead said:


> http://www.awitness.org/contrabib/torah/flood.html



In a video I saw a few days ago a guy brought up all the inconsistencies in the Flood story (such as your example about two versions of how long the flooding lasted) and by comparing two different facts about the depth of the floodwaters and the timeline of events, the story reveals that when the ark finally came to rest, *the mountaintop would have been underwater!*  So Noah wasn't just the greatest ship builder * he was the first submarine commander too! 

* actually Noah was the greatest zoologist, veterinarian, sailor, shipbuilder, and farmer that ever lived when you think about it. Then again when you live to be MANY HUNDREDS of years old, you gain a bit of experience I guess.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 17, 2022)

god isn't vengeful? ETERNAL TORTURE might say otherwise. The eternal torture is not "punishment" per se because punishment is a tool to possibly change somebody's future behavior, or to act as a deterrent to others to behave properly. Correct me if I'm wrong but the judgement doesn't begin until everybody is dead. All the people current dead are sort of "sleeping" until the judgement, when everyone who will have ever lived gets sent to reward or torture. Flesh and blood humans as we know them won't be walking the earth - there will be only heaven or the bad place for all eternity. 
There will be no opportunity to make decisions that will improve society or degrade it. We will be stuck in our final reward destination.

Thus at that point the punishment is really only revenge.


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## Baroque Brass (Mar 17, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> No, I am not rejoicing....at all...Basically I am letting all know of the bible teachings, and the prophesies, that are being fulfilled in our day...
> 
> God is not vengeful, and note 1st Peter 3:9 to counter your point...
> 
> ...


God acting - or not - against those determined to do bad things brings me back to what I posted in the other long running thread. What about the three year old being raped and murdered? That’s about as sickening, evil, vile and disgusting as anything I can imagine. Yet the omnipotent god didn’t intervene of the little girl’s behalf. What if the person that committed the act was never arrested? Would god take him out? Surely if he got away with it once he’d try it again. Maybe you’re referring to larger scale occurrences and not individual. Still, that little girl needed help from somewhere.


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> No, I am not rejoicing....at all...Basically I am letting all know of the bible teachings, and the prophesies, that are being fulfilled in our day...
> 
> God is not vengeful, and note 1st Peter 3:9 to counter your point...
> 
> ...


We already know the bible teachings and we have found more accurate, less contradicting, and modern explanations that refute what is written in the bible.
You can ignore what we post and keep using the same debunked creationist websites to continue on but you are doing it for yourself more than us. If we believed what is written in the bible or even thought it was remotely accurate we wouldn't be here showing you it isn't.


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## kmh1031 (Mar 17, 2022)

See there you go again quoting false religion teachings!
NO BURNING Hale!
Bible does not teach that....Ex 18:4, and 20 soul dies, 
Dead unconscious, Ecc 9:5-10, PS 146:3-4 shows condition of dead...God said to A & E you will die, and return to dust...not burn...


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## kmh1031 (Mar 17, 2022)

How about we call a truce...and you guys, lovely as you are, go your way....and I go my way...and we agree to disagree....?
comments from time to time...

Fair enough, ?


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## kmh1031 (Mar 17, 2022)

Once again, that is ALL covered in the bible, and WHY he choses not to intervene...and most importantly, how he is going to correct ALL that in near future...

Satan has convinced many: 
"Man knows better than god, man is better off without god, man does not need a god rule govt....and Satan is disproving that daily with the terror, and atrocities daily, and all blame on God"..
the ruler of this world is Satan...and he has all convinced that GOD needed a little girl in heaven, we dont "know gods ways" why does god permit this wickedness"? that is false religion **.


GOD will correct ALL this in future, including all those harmed, or killed; resurrection day, getting rid of wicked...and helping all those you mention:
Revelation 21:3-4....


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## kmh1031 (Mar 17, 2022)

knowing it, what is written there, and understanding it...is two different things...


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## ky55 (Mar 17, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Once again, that is ALL covered in the bible, and WHY he choses not to intervene...and most importantly, how he is going to correct ALL that in near future...
> 
> Satan has convinced many:
> "Man knows better than god, man is better off without god, man does not need a god rule govt....and Satan is disproving that daily with the terror, and atrocities daily, and all blame on God"..
> ...



Go back and read Bullet’s post #210 again.


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Once again, that is ALL covered in the bible, and WHY he choses not to intervene...and most importantly, how he is going to correct ALL that in near future...
> 
> Satan has convinced many:
> "Man knows better than god, man is better off without god, man does not need a god rule govt....and Satan is disproving that daily with the terror, and atrocities daily, and all blame on God"..
> ...


The Bible says the Angels are at constant war with Satan and demons.
Why?
Why is God waiting around and letting the devil do all this to gods children each and every day for thousands of years? 

Can you at least hit reply so we know who you are answering?


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> knowing it, what is written there, and understanding it...is two different things...


I can convince myself of anything,  but I don't need to.
You understand it the way YOU understand it and your understanding differs among other believers. If what is written was both true and universally understood even among Christians only you might be on to something. But 40,000 denominations with differences in understanding tell me what I need to know.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 17, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> See there you go again quoting false religion teachings!
> NO BURNING Hale!
> Bible does not teach that....Ex 18:4, and 20 soul dies,
> Dead unconscious, Ecc 9:5-10, PS 146:3-4 shows condition of dead...God said to A & E you will die, and return to dust...not burn...



But thousands of_ other _Christians can quote bible verses that say that there IS a hot place!   The bible seems like an ink-blot test in a psychiatry office: everybody sees something different! 

But more importantly: what if the devil is tricking you into thinking that your interpretation is correct, but it's actually false, and there_ is _a hot place and by spreading such falsehoods (and putting souls in jeopardy) now _you _will end up there?   Something to think about ya know!

Seriously though the original Jews * (and pretty much all sects of Jews now too) didn't believe in the hot place either. And Jesus was a practicing Jew obviously, so you might be on to something in your "no hale" idea. Dust for everybody would be fair IMHO. 
Kind of a rip-off for the believers if there is no heaven though.


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## kmh1031 (Mar 17, 2022)

Got it....read it...not a creationist, in that god did not make earth in 7/24 h days....

I could cite several bible prophesies, that HAVE come true, and were written well before...

like Babylon never being inhabited, and it has not after thousands of years.

the exact location of Jesus birth and he had no control of that
the manner in which he died, no control over that...

Jesus killed without ANY bones being broken, which was the way Romans used time and time again to speed death..

The name Cyrus in bible as the deliverer of Gods people written hundreds of years in advance...and that was the exact ruler who did so..

but falling on deaf ears...
So i will take my leave...and which all here the best...and may talk again in the future..


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## kmh1031 (Mar 17, 2022)

They quote it as they have been told it...once again, never researched it...

Note the original expression for HALE...they have converted/translated from Hades and Sheol meaning mankind's common grave to Hale...and a burning one at that...

So the bible does not teach this...false religion does.


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Got it....read it...not a creationist, in that god did not make earth in 7/24 h days....


Genesis breaks it down to 7 Days.
Where does the bible say differently elsewhere? Why do you say it is differently?



kmh1031 said:


> I could cite several bible prophesies, that HAVE come true, and were written well before...


Ok. Please do cite them but do no stop there,  show us using facts and evidence that back it up.



kmh1031 said:


> like Babylon never being inhabited, and it has not after thousands of years.


Are you talking about the City or the Empire?



kmh1031 said:


> the exact location of Jesus birth and he had no control of that
> the manner in which he died, no control over that...


Lets say it is written, if not already but right here and now, that in a future Superbowl, a young leader will emerge to triumph over the opposition and bring victory to the team. He will play in an arena of some sort. We shall call him Duke which means Leader.
Fast forward to any Superbowl you want to in the future and there will be someone who fits that description. Like in the bible where Jesus was not called Jesus specifically they called the future leader Immanuel (which means "god is with us"...very vague isnt it...like Duke, "a leader"). Now some anonymous author who was not there, did not see the game and didn't know anyone on the field decides to write a story about the game. He knows enough about what was written previously saying that bullethead prophesied that there indeed would be a leader in a future Superbowl game. Well 1, 10, 1000 years later...that leader's name happens to be Jesus(it could literally be any name but for this story it is Jesus). Well Jesus is his GREEK name. His Hebrew name is Joshua and neither name is actually Duke, but Jesus turned out to lead the team to victory,  therefore he was the leader, prophesy mentioned a leader therefore Duke = Jesus.
Same way some anonymous NT writer linked Jesus to Immanuel. Had Mary named him Immanuel it would have fit a little better, no?
But since someone knows what is prophesied it is easy to write stories that try to make someone fit those prophesies.
There are more people in Jewish history that fulfilled MORE prophesies than Jesus, but none of them including Jesus fulfilled all the requirements to be Messiah.



kmh1031 said:


> Jesus killed without ANY bones being broken, which was the way Romans used time and time again to speed death..


Jesus died earlier than most. Most last days not a few hours. A spear in the ribs helps speed things up don't you think?



kmh1031 said:


> The name Cyrus in bible as the deliverer of Gods people written hundreds of years in advance...and that was the exact ruler who did so..


If you studied and understand Bible history Isaiah was written in 2 parts by 2 different authors in 2 different periods.
1-39 was written by Isaiah. 40+ was written by anonymous author 150+ years later while Cyrus was already ruling. You need to do your homework.



kmh1031 said:


> but falling on deaf ears...
> So i will take my leave...and which all here the best...and may talk again in the future..


Use your time to study and check your sources, re-check them and compare both pro and con alike. You might not like what you find but that doesn't mean it isn't true.


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## ambush80 (Mar 17, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> No, I am not rejoicing....at all...Basically I am letting all know of the bible teachings, and the prophesies, that are being fulfilled in our day...
> 
> God is not vengeful, and note 1st Peter 3:9 to counter your point...
> 
> ...



Do tell....

https://www.biblehub.com/nahum/1-2.htm


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## ambush80 (Mar 17, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> god isn't vengeful? ETERNAL TORTURE might say otherwise. The eternal torture is not "punishment" per se because punishment is a tool to possibly change somebody's future behavior, or to act as a deterrent to others to behave properly. Correct me if I'm wrong but the judgement doesn't begin until everybody is dead. All the people current dead are sort of "sleeping" until the judgement, when everyone who will have ever lived gets sent to reward or torture. Flesh and blood humans as we know them won't be walking the earth - there will be only heaven or the bad place for all eternity.
> There will be no opportunity to make decisions that will improve society or degrade it. We will be stuck in our final reward destination.
> 
> Thus at that point the punishment is really only revenge.



Perhaps a better word would be "punitive".


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## 660griz (Mar 17, 2022)

ky55 said:


> And some will be rejoicing while others are begging for a drink of water.
> That’s really disturbing.
> “You just wait, you’ll see!”


Begging for a drink of water? Is ammo being raptured? If not, I aint begging.


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2022)

660griz said:


> Begging for a drink of water? Is ammo being raptured? If not, I aint begging.


The guys rolling in on horses with swords in Revelation better hope there are no guns and ammo.
Then again maybe we missed it.
Revelation may tried to happen in one of those Chicago neighborhoods and a couple of local tour guides in a '64 Imapla might have put an end to it rather quickly.


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## kmh1031 (Mar 17, 2022)

A lot to reply to…

NOTE  form a previous post...
Jesus was pierced AFTER he died…John 19:34…not before…and *according to prophesy*…they did not break his legs as they do to speed up the death…but it was foretold, not a bone broken..how could he control that?
Prophesies:

The descendants of the faithful man Abraham would become a great nation, later called the nation of Israel, Genesis 12:1, 2.

● Abraham’s descendants would return to the land of Canaan after living in a foreign land for four generations Genesis 15:13, 16.
● Abraham’s descendants would take possession of “the entire land of Canaan.” Genesis 17:8.
● Because the Israelites rebelled against God, he would allow them to be conquered and taken captive Jeremiah 25:8-11.
● God would restore the Jews to their homeland after they spent 70 years in captivity Jeremiah 25:12; 29:10.
● The Babylonian world power would be overthrown, and in time Babylon would become rubble. Isa 13:19 - 20

All of the above came true.....any authoritative  evidence to show different?
*Some prophecies about Jesus and his followers many could NOT have been prepped, acted out...most all beyond his control...!*

● The Messiah, or Christ, would stem from the family line of King David, Isaiah 9:7. 
● The future Messiah would be born in Bethlehem, Micah 5:2.
● The Messiah would appear 483 years after “the going forth of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem.” That word was given in 455 B.C.E, Daniel 9:25.
● Before his execution, the Messiah would be severely flogged, Isaiah 50:6.
● The Messiah would be executed as a despised criminal, yet he would be buried with “the rich class, Isaiah 53:9.
● Christ’s followers would spread his message throughout Judea, Samaria, and the rest of the known world, Acts 1:8.
● True Christians would be persecuted, Mark 13:9.
● Deceitful and oppressive individuals would infiltrate the Christian congregation, causing many to become apostate, Acts 20:29, 30; 2 Peter 2:1, 2.

The prophecies of Isaiah are especially interesting…because they were recorded about *200 *years in advance—perhaps 150 years before Cyrus was even born! Consider the following:

▪ A man named Cyrus would conquer Babylon and free the Jews.—Isaiah 44:28; 45:1.
▪ The Euphrates River would dry up, opening the way for Cyrus’ army.—Isaiah 44:27.
▪ The city gates would be left open.—Isaiah 45:1.
▪ Babylon’s military would ‘cease to fight.’—Jeremiah 51:30; Isaiah 13:1, 7.

*To your point on the Book of Isaiah:*

writers of the Christian Greek Scriptures credited both the material now designated chapters 1 to 39 and chapters 40 to 66 to “Isaiah the prophet.”

 They never said that there were two persons who bore this name or that the name of the writer of part of the book was unknown.  
For examples compare Mt 3:3 and 4:14-16 with Isa 40:3 and 9:1, 2; also Joh 12:38-41 with Isa 53:1 and 6:1, 10.

Also…there are numerous other places in the Scripture where writers specifically credit material quoted from the latter part of the book of Isaiah, *not *to an unidentified writer, but to “Isaiah the prophet.” Compare Mt 12:17-21 with Isa 42:1-4; Ro 10:16 with Isa 53:1.

 Jesus Christ himself, when he read from “the scroll of the prophet Isaiah” at the synagogue in Nazareth, was reading from Isaiah 61:1, 2.—Lu 4:17-19.

The entire book of Isaiah has been passed down through the centuries as a single work, not as two or more.

The continuity from chapter 39 to chapter 40 is evident in what is recorded at Isaiah 39:6, 7, which is an obvious transition to what follows.

Where did the thought that two witers wrote the book?  

Those who would argue that the book has more than one writer do not feel that it was possible for Isaiah to have foretold nearly two centuries in advance that a ruler named Cyrus would liberate the exiled Jews.  

Thus, the reason they *speculate *that it had to be written at a later time, at least after Cyrus began his conquests: Isa 44:28; 45:1

These people fail to realize the import of this entire portion of the book, because the material specifically deals with foreknowledge, with the ability of God to tell in advance what would happen to his people, nearly 200 years in advance

ALso...I DO WORK..and need to get back at it.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 17, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Do tell....
> 
> https://www.biblehub.com/nahum/1-2.htm



GOODNESS GRACIOUS! The bible says god is indeed veangeful and angry! 

So Tom Waits was right in his song "Heart Attack & Vine"

"There ain't no devil, that's just god when he's drunk!"


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> A lot to reply to…
> 
> NOTE  form a previous post...
> Jesus was pierced AFTER he died…John 19:34…not before…and *according to prophesy*…they did not break his legs as they do to speed up the death…but it was foretold, not a bone broken..how could he control that?
> ...


When all you research is pro christian sites all you get is disproven regurgitation.


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> A lot to reply to…
> 
> NOTE  form a previous post...
> Jesus was pierced AFTER he died…John 19:34…not before…and *according to prophesy*…they did not break his legs as they do to speed up the death…but it was foretold, not a bone broken..how could he control that?
> ...


https://rsc.byu.edu/isaiah-prophets...sionists divide the book into two authorships.


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## ky55 (Mar 17, 2022)

bullethead said:


> When all you research is pro christian sites all you get is disproven regurgitation.



We’ll, that’s pretty much correct, but if you want to take it to a whole new level all you need to do is check out the science schtuff that Ken Ham is shoveling.


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## kmh1031 (Mar 17, 2022)

Point taken,  it works in reverse also


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> A lot to reply to…
> 
> NOTE  form a previous post...
> Jesus was pierced AFTER he died…John 19:34…not before…and *according to prophesy*…they did not break his legs as they do to speed up the death…but it was foretold, not a bone broken..how could he control that?
> ...


Can you tell us when the stories of Jesus were written and who the authors of the gospel were?


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Point taken,  it works in reverse also


Yes it does. That is why I read, Pro, Con and Indifferent and use the proven information from either of the three.


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2022)

https://ehrmanblog.org/jesus-and-the-messianic-prophecies/


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 17, 2022)

bullethead said:


> https://rsc.byu.edu/isaiah-prophets/scientific-analysis-isaiah-authorship#:~:text=The vast majority of divisionist scholars divide the,the divisionists divide the book into two authorships.



  well that was some...thorough examination.... of the subject to say the least! 
So in summation: what's the deal with the Book of Isiah?


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 17, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Can you tell us when the stories of Jesus were written and who the authors of the gospel were?



Not saying Jesus had any broken bones (I never saw any x-rays) but didn't he get an epic, severe butt whupping from a bunch of Roman soldiers? Sorry but a broken nose, orbital bone, or rib wouldn't be that out of the ordinary after such an ordeal. 

Also getting a spear though his side would likely break/cut ribs too. Just sayin'


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> well that was some...thorough examination.... of the subject to say the least!
> So in summation: what's the deal with the Book of Isiah?


The writings took place at different times by different authors.


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Not saying Jesus had any broken bones (I never saw any x-rays) but didn't he get an epic, severe butt whupping from a bunch of Roman soldiers? Sorry but a broken nose, orbital bone, or rib wouldn't be that out of the ordinary after such an ordeal.
> 
> Also getting a spear though his side would likely break/cut ribs too. Just sayin'


The anonymous authors of the gospels wrote the stories to suit the prophecies. The writings were written 40 to 80+ years after the fact by people who were not there, did not witness anything or even knew Jesus. They didn't talk to Jesus, they didn't walk with Jesus. They were fans of the religion and wrote stories about Jesus in order to help him fulfill prophecies through their writings rather than record what happened in reality. 
See my Bart Ehrman link above.


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## kmh1031 (Mar 17, 2022)

U r at best reaching for ur proof by saying all written 40-80 years AFTER
disprove a couple of my comments/scriptures on prophesies…Matt-John and the gospels all worked/preached/traveled with Jesus…


The Bible was written over a period of some 1,600 years. 
There were about 40 Bible writers, many did not even know each other, lived in different areas, yet they all followed a single theme without contradicting one another. How was that possible?
God guided their writing


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> U r at best reaching for ur proof by saying all written 40-80 years AFTER
> disprove a couple of my comments/scriptures on prophesies…Matt-John and the gospels all worked/preached/traveled with Jesus…
> 
> 
> ...


You simply do not know the history of your own religion. 
You aren't reading the links I am giving you or else you couldn't say what you say.


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## kmh1031 (Mar 17, 2022)

So I guess barts blog is the final gospel on this?
Jesus was not the messiah? As well as the “scentific approach to the 2 Isaiah’s? And also the gospels were not written by his disciples and apostles?


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> So I guess barts blog is the final gospel on this?
> Jesus was not the messiah? As well as the “scentific approach to the 2 Isaiah’s? And also the gospels were not written by his disciples and apostles?


Barts blog is not the final word. It is a stepping stone for you to hear another side which is backed up by examples and explanations by someone who studies these things for a living. Take what he has said and research it more elsewhere.

Jesus was not the Messiah. If he was. If he fulfilled OT prophesy.  The Jews would have embraced him as such.
Jesus was a Jew. He never claimed to be God. He never asked to be worshipped. He never requested that anyone start a new religion around him. He did not meet the requirements to be messiah so his followers turned him into a god.

Not sure what you mean about the scientific approach to Isaiah.

Absolutely that the authors of the gospels were not disciples/apostles.
John may have been. The others no. Do your research. The gospels had no names attached to them until the 2 century.


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## kmh1031 (Mar 17, 2022)

Re Jesus and being the messiah… 
Jewish sources agree with Luke 2:38 that the people at that time were waiting for Jerusalem’s deliverance. 

The Jewish Encyclopediaobserves: “They yearned for the promised deliverer of the house of David, who would free them from the yoke of the hated foreign usurper, would put an end to the impious Roman rule, and would establish His own reign of peace.” (1976, Vol. VIII, p. 508) They tried to make him an earthly king. (Joh 6:15) When he would not fulfill their expectations, they rejected him.

he was not there to deliver them, but had a much bigger role to play.. 
next is a more detailed info on Jesus as being messiah 
With  prophesey, event, fulfillmentagreed
1,5 maybe 10 would not alone make him the messiah… 
But look at them all….
Casting lots over his garments for example… what control did he have over that?
Add them all up…. They point to Jesus beong the messiah


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## kmh1031 (Mar 17, 2022)

Born of the tribe of Judah

Mt 1:2-16; Lu 3:23-33; Heb 7:14

Ps 132:11; Isa 9:7; 11:1, 10

From the family of David the son of Jesse

Mt 1:1, 6-16; 9:27; Ac 13:22, 23; Ro 1:3; 15:8, 12

Mic 5:2

Born in Bethlehem

Lu 2:4-11; Joh 7:42

Isa 7:14

Born of a virgin

Mt 1:18-23; Lu 1:30-35

Jer 31:15

Babes killed after his birth

Mt 2:16-18

Ho 11:1

Called out of Egypt

Mt 2:15

Mal 3:1; 4:5; Isa 40:3

Way prepared before

Mt 3:1-3; 11:10-14; 17:10-13; Lu 1:17, 76; 3:3-6;7:27; Joh 1:20-23; 3:25-28; Ac 13:24; 19:4

Isa 61:1, 2

Commissioned

Lu 4:18-21

Isa 9:1, 2

Ministry caused people in Naphtali and Zebulun to see great light

Mt 4:13-16

Ps 78:2

Spoke with illustrations

Mt 13:11-13, 31-35

Isa 53:4

Carried our sicknesses

Mt 8:16, 17

Ps 69:9

Zealous for His fathers house

Mt 21:12, 13; Joh 2:13-17

Isa 42:1-4

As Gods servant, would not wrangle in streets

Mt 12:14-21

Isa 53:1

Not believed in

Joh 12:37, 38; Ro 10:11, 16

Zec 9:9; Ps 118:26

Entry into Jerusalem on colt of an ***; hailed as king and one coming in Gods name

Mt 21:1-9; Mr 11:7-11; Lu 19:28-38; Joh 12:12-15

Isa 28:16; 53:3; Ps 69:8; 118:22, 23

Rejected but becomes chief cornerstone

Mt 21:42, 45, 46; Ac 3:14; 4:11; 1Pe 2:7

Isa 8:14, 15

Becomes stone of stumbling

Lu 20:17, 18; Ro 9:31-33

Ps 41:9; 109:8

One apostle unfaithful, betrays him

Mt 26:47-50; Joh 13:18, 26-30; Ac 1:16-20

Zec 11:12

Betrayed for 30 pieces of silver

Mt 26:15; 27:3-10; Mr 14:10, 11

Zec 13:7

Disciples scatter

Mt 26:31, 56; Joh 16:32

Ps 2:1, 2

Roman powers and leaders of Israel act together against anointed of God 

Mt 27:1, 2; Mr 15:1, 15; Lu 23:10-12; Ac 4:25-28

Isa 53:8

Tried and condemned

Mt 26:57-68; 27:1, 2, 11-26; Joh 18:12-14, 19-24,28-40; 19:1-16

Ps 27:12

Use of false witnesses

Mt 26:59-61; Mr 14:56-59

Isa 53:7

Silent before accusers

Mt 27:12-14; Mr 14:61; 15:4, 5; Lu 23:9

Ps 69:4

Hated without cause

Lu 23:13-25; Joh 15:24, 25

Isa 50:6; Mic 5:1

Struck, spit on

Mt 26:67; 27:26, 30; Joh 19:3

Ps 22:16,


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## kmh1031 (Mar 17, 2022)

Impaled

Mt 27:35; Mr 15:24, 25; Lu 23:33; Joh 19:18, 23;20:25, 27

Ps 22:18

Lots cast for garments

Mt 27:35; Joh 19:23, 24

Isa 53:12

Numbered with sinners

Mt 26:55, 56; 27:38; Lu 22:37

Ps 22:7, 8

Reviled while on stake

Mt 27:39-43; Mr 15:29-32

Ps 69:21

Given vinegar and gall

Mt 27:34, 48; Mr 15:23, 36

Ps 22:1

Forsaken by God to enemies

Mt 27:46; Mr 15:34

Ps 34:20; Ex 12:46

No bones broken

Joh 19:33, 36

Isa 53:5; Zec 12:10

Pierced

Mt 27:49; Joh 19:34, 37; Re 1:7

Isa 53:5, 8, 11, 12

Dies sacrificial death to carry away sins and open way to righteous standing with God

Mt 20:28; Joh 1:29; Ro 3:24; 4:25; 1Co 15:3; Heb 9:12-15; 1Pe 2:24; 1Jo 2:2

Isa 53:9

Buried with the rich

Mt 27:57-60; Joh 19:38-42

Jon 1:17; 2:10

In grave parts of three days, then resurrected

Mt 12:39, 40; 16:21; 17:23; 27:64; 28:1-7; Ac 10:40; 1Co 15:3-8

Ps 16:8-11, 

Raised before corruption

Ac 2:25-31; 13:34-37

Ps 2:7

God declares him His Son by spirit begetting and by resurrection

Mt 3:16, 17; Mr 1:9-11; Lu 3:21, 22; Ac 13:33; Ro 1:4; Heb 1:5; 5:5
perhaps a few could be argued…. But collectively and especially the ones beyond his control give one pause to think…. How could that happen according to prophesy


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Re Jesus and being the messiah…
> Jewish sources agree with Luke 2:38 that the people at that time were waiting for Jerusalem’s deliverance.
> 
> The Jewish Encyclopediaobserves: “They yearned for the promised deliverer of the house of David, who would free them from the yoke of the hated foreign usurper, would put an end to the impious Roman rule, and would establish His own reign of peace.” (1976, Vol. VIII, p. 508) They tried to make him an earthly king. (Joh 6:15) When he would not fulfill their expectations, they rejected him.
> ...


Then why didn't the Jews acknowledge that he was?
The messanic requirements by the Torah are not what you think they are.
https://www.jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/messiah-the-criteria


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Born of the tribe of Judah
> 
> Mt 1:2-16; Lu 3:23-33; Heb 7:14
> 
> ...


Those aren't the requirements to be Messiah.


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2022)

https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/isaiah-714-a-virgin-birth/


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## kmh1031 (Mar 17, 2022)

Jews did joy accept Jesus as noted in my comment earlier and the reason the had hom
Killed..
Gospel writers 
J


----------



## bullethead (Mar 17, 2022)

Kmh, here is 40 pages of Messiah discussion in these threads.
Have at it
https://forum.gon.com/threads/when-the-messiah-returns.990861/


----------



## kmh1031 (Mar 17, 2022)

Thank u…bullethead
Enjoyed the discussion, and u make some great points… 
But with all the proof, biblical, secular, and other… and the fact that I do believe the Bible written by men, inspired by god… and was an unbeliever and tried to orice it wrong.. then my research revealed differently..  
I am holding firm..
I wish you well.. 
thanks for the discussion…


----------



## bullethead (Mar 17, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Jews did joy accept Jesus as noted in my comment earlier and the reason the had hom
> Killed..
> Gospel writers
> J


Did you read the note at the bottom of your middle example of gospel writers?

And this :
"Jews did joy accept Jesus as noted in my comment earlier and the reason the had hom
Killed.."
I don't know what you are talking about


----------



## kmh1031 (Mar 17, 2022)

The Jews wanted their messiah to save them then, be a king and get rid of their oppressors 
When he did not want to be made king as his kingdom no of of their world 
And his role a much more broad one then that day… they conspired to kill him


----------



## kmh1031 (Mar 17, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Did you read the note at the bottom of your middle example of gospel writers?
> 
> And this :
> "Jews did joy accept Jesus as noted in my comment earlier and the reason the had hom
> ...


Yes I read the bottom… I saw that… and understand it..


----------



## bullethead (Mar 17, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> The Jews wanted their messiah to save them then, be a king and get rid of their oppressors
> When he did not want to be made king as his kingdom no of of their world
> And his role a much more broad one then that day… they conspired to kill him


It doesn't matter what the Jews want. The requirements for Messiah were told in the Torah. Anyone that meets those requirements will be Messiah. Those that do not and did not couldn't be Messiah. Jesus didn't. They wouldn't have executed him if he did.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 17, 2022)

https://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/jewsandjesus/


----------



## bullethead (Mar 17, 2022)

http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-th...udaism/the-messiah/who-is-the-messiah/?p=1063


----------



## oldfella1962 (Mar 17, 2022)

bullethead said:


> The writings took place at different times by different authors.


 
I see, but isn't such a thing quite common among bible authorship? In other words did the eventual revelation that the content of the book of Isiah were not as claimed cause a controversy or surprise anybody? I have no idea, I'm just curious how things like this are handled by believers/biblical experts.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 17, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I see, but isn't such a thing quite common among bible authorship? In other words did the eventual revelation that the content of the book of Isiah were not as claimed cause a controversy or surprise anybody? I have no idea, I'm just curious how things like this are handled by believers/biblical experts.


The original Isaiah is credited up to v39.
After that where prophesy about Cyrus is claimed,  has been found to have been written by someone else over 150yrs later during the time of Cyrus not before. It's like watching the game and making bets on the replay with someone who didn't see the game.
And there are even a lot of scholars who make a strong case for Isaiah having 3 authors and 3 separate writing styles.


----------



## ky55 (Mar 17, 2022)

bullethead said:


> The original Isaiah is credited up to v39.
> After that where prophesy about Cyrus is claimed,  has been found to have been written by someone else over 150yrs later during the time of Cyrus not before. It's like watching the game and making bets on the reply with someone who didn't see the game.
> And there are even a lot of scholars who make a strong for Isaiah having 3 authors and 3 separate writing styles.



Bullet,
you are casting your pearls before swine.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 17, 2022)

ky55 said:


> Bullet,
> you are casting your pearls before swine.


I just hope to promote thought. I am not out to change anyone's mind.


----------



## ky55 (Mar 17, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I just hope to promote thought. I am not out to change anyone's mind.



None of us are. 
We’re totally satisfied with changing our own minds.


----------



## brutally honest (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Jesus was not the Messiah. If he was. If he fulfilled OT prophesy.  The Jews would have embraced him as such.



Who were the 3000 who got baptized in Acts 2?  Jews.  Who was preaching to them?  Another Jew.

The entire early church was Jewish.  (It was too Jewish in some cases, according to Acts 15 and Galatians.)

Certainly, most Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah, but a lot of Jews rejected Moses on Mt. Sinai (and still do.)  There is a detailed record of Jews rejecting God over and over again.  It’s called the Old Testament.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Who were the 3000 who got baptized in Acts 2?  Jews.  Who was preaching to them?  Another Jew.
> 
> The entire early church was Jewish.  (It was too Jewish in some cases, according to Acts 15 and Galatians.)
> 
> Certainly, most Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah, but a lot of Jews rejected Moses on Mt. Sinai (and still do.)  There is a detailed record of Jews rejecting God over and over again.  It’s called the Old Testament.


And to go further....
Some Jews worshipped multiple gods and various splinter sectors were creating new gods to worship. Like many people in most religions they were looking to be led by someone who they identified with more closely. Jesus was an example of that. It was failing until Rome got involved.

I'll ask you.
Did Jesus want to start a new religion?
Did Jesus ask or command to be worshipped?
Did Jesus say he was there to soften the OT? To re-vamp God into a kinder more gentle God?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Who were the 3000 who got baptized in Acts 2?  Jews.  Who was preaching to them?  Another Jew.
> 
> The entire early church was Jewish.  (It was too Jewish in some cases, according to Acts 15 and Galatians.)
> 
> Certainly, most Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah, but a lot of Jews rejected Moses on Mt. Sinai (and still do.)  There is a detailed record of Jews rejecting God over and over again.  It’s called the Old Testament.


To address your first part...

Who are the 40,000 different Christian denominations? What makes them go on a different path from the next?
Are the Jehovahs Witnesses the same Christians as Baptiists?
Why do Catholics pray to Saints and Jesus's Mother?
How about the Mormon founder Joseph Smith? What did he offer that your denomination doesn't? 
There are still 39,990 something to sort through.
Technically they are all Christians like your examples of the 3000 all being Jews. But there is something that draws them away from the core and towards something they like better.
How long will it be until one group worships their leader more than Jesus?

How many cults went from Jesus to their leader? 

The history of religion,all religions, is similar. It follows the history of cultures which are always changing. 
I think too many People look at the Big picture of Christianity as a whole and are quick to point out that there are 2 Billion Christians but the reality is that when broken down to denominational levels the same person doesn't want to be included with or have anything to do with the majority of them doctrine wise.
Every major religion is always under attack from within. People constantly want a better god. Christianity is large but look at all the spinters. No different than Judaism. It's a matter of time until one breaks off and takes a bunch with it like what happened when Jews went from being Jews following God and the Torah, to Jews following Jesus and the Torah, to Jews and Gentiles that followed Jesus just following Jesus to all becoming Christians who then had to write the stories about why their leader is now God and why they worship him instead of their Old Version.


----------



## kmh1031 (Mar 18, 2022)

One true god
One true religion
False religion noted in Rev by Babylon the Great 
Revelation also shows God has a people as he says… Get out of her my people..
Jesus said… speaking of his followers.. you will know them by their fruits… 
He also said of the religious leaders of his day, same applies today
After they said…. Lord did we not prophesy in ur name, expel demons, prophesy in ur name”..he said..
“Get away from me… I never knew u”
Jesus knew this would happen and so that is why he left several signs to identify the true religion of today

It is a litmus test to determine whether you are in the true religion or false today


----------



## brutally honest (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> To address your first part...
> 
> Who are the 40,000 different Christian denominations? What makes them go on a different path from the next?
> Are the Jehovahs Witnesses the same Christians as Baptiists?
> ...



You’re jumping from “Jesus was not the Messiah and Jews rejected Him” to “what about …” .

My point was simply that all Jews did not reject as Messiah.  They didn’t in the 1st century, and they don’t in in the 21st century.


----------



## brutally honest (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> And to go further....
> Some Jews worshipped multiple gods and various splinter sectors were creating new gods to worship. Like many people in most religions they were looking to be led by someone who they identified with more closely. Jesus was an example of that. It was failing until Rome got involved.



If you equate spreading across the known world as “failing” … OK.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> One true god
> One true religion
> False religion noted in Rev by Babylon the Great
> Revelation also shows God has a people as he says… Get out of her my people..
> ...


Only you care or think that what is written in your book is true. We get that. 
Muslims think the same thing about what is written in their book also. Same for the Jews and on and on.

When and until any one of you can back it up with irrefutable evidence it will only ever be another attempt at ancient cultures trying to explain and makes sense of a religion in their culture.

Personally I dont care how many times you regurgitate scripture. It solves or means nothing outside of its own pages. You might as well be reading and reciting from a Spiderman Comic book where all the action and happenings within exist only in those pages.
You have to know your audience here and be able to reach them.


----------



## brutally honest (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I'll ask you.
> Did Jesus want to start a new religion?
> Did Jesus ask or command to be worshipped?
> Did Jesus say he was there to soften the OT? To re-vamp God into a kinder more gentle God?



Jesus said He came to fulfill the law, not do away with it.  He is the promised Messiah.  Through Him both Jews and Gentiles can be saved.

As to worship, I would say “no” to your question, although He did accept worship.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> You’re jumping from “Jesus was not the Messiah and Jews rejected Him” to “what about …” .
> 
> My point was simply that all Jews did not reject as Messiah.  They didn’t in the 1st century, and they don’t in in the 21st century.


Its more like What it Is rather than What about.
Statistically only a very small percentage followed him early on.
The following was on life support for 300 years until the Romans got involved. Follow or die has a nice compelling ring to it.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 18, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> One true god
> One true religion
> False religion noted in Rev by Babylon the Great
> Revelation also shows God has a people as he says… Get out of her my people..
> ...


I'll give you 99.9999999999% odds that if you had been born in Yemen instead of America, you would now just as strongly think that Allah was the one true God, and Islam was the one true religion. Or if you were born in India, Hinduism, etc. You believe your religion because it is the religion of the culture you grew up in. People of other cultures are no different. And they would mostly argue their points exactly like you are, by quoting from their sacred book and sacred prophets.


----------



## brutally honest (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Statistically only a very small percentage followed him early on.



OK


----------



## brutally honest (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> The following was on life support for 300 years until the Romans got involved. Follow or die has a nice compelling ring to it.



Again, if spreading across the known world is “life support” … OK.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> If you equate spreading across the known world as “failing” … OK.


Can you break down the progression for me then?
Explain to me, with examples, of how Christianity flourished immediately after the death of Jesus. Please, I am interested in hearing a history lesson from you.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Again, if spreading across the known world is “life support” … OK.


Again, by all means, lay out a timeline of Christianity for me.


----------



## brutally honest (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Can you break down the progression for me then?



The “progression” is called Paul, Barnabas, Silas, Timothy and Titus.  They preached all over Palestine and Asia, and Paul was on his way to Spain.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> The “progression” is called Paul, Barnabas, Silas, Timothy and Titus.  They preached all over Palestine and Asia, and Paul was on his way to Spain.


So that is how you would explain it if asked to go in front of a room full of people who know nothing about Christianity?
Start at Jesus death and take us to Rome 300 years later.
Tell me what you know


----------



## brutally honest (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Start at Jesus death and take us to Rome 300 years later.



300 years?  That sounds like a quick, easy post I could knock out on my phone.  What should I do for an encore?  A history of the first twelve Caesar’s?  (Suetonius already did a bang up job there.  I don’t know if I could top him.).  Or how about a brief history of 19th century European imperialism?  Maybe 20th century Sino-Soviet relations?

Look, if you have a specific comment or question, then post it, and I’ll answer as best I can.  I’m not gonna write a history essay, though.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> 300 years?  That sounds like a quick, easy post I could knock out on my phone.  What should I do for an encore?  A history of the first twelve Caesar’s?  (Suetonius already did a bang up job there.  I don’t know if I could top him.).  Or how about a brief history of 19th century European imperialism?  Maybe 20th century Sino-Soviet relations?
> 
> Look, if you have a specific comment or question, then post it, and I’ll answer as best I can.  I’m not gonna write a history essay, though.


That is a lot of beating around the bush instead of saying "I don't know it".


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Jesus said He came to fulfill the law, not do away with it.  He is the promised Messiah.  Through Him both Jews and Gentiles can be saved.
> 
> As to worship, I would say “no” to your question, although He did accept worship.



It is a long read because it includes explanations that either confirm or deny scripture. 
https://jewsforjesus.org/jewish-resources/messianic-prophecy/


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

Amazing to me how soft atheists are.


----------



## brutally honest (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> That is a lot of beating around the bush instead of saying "I don't know it".



I’m well-versed in church history.  I just finished a 900-page double biography of Martin Luther and Erasmus … but you’re not my faculty adviser, and I’m not here defending my dissertation.

I’ll say it again:  post a specific comment or question, and I’ll answer as best I can.  I’m just hoping you can do better than “Jews rejected Jesus, so He can’t be the Messiah”.


----------



## brutally honest (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Amazing to me how soft atheists are.



Cotton


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 18, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I'll give you 99.9999999999% odds that if you had been born in Yemen instead of America, you would now just as strongly think that Allah was the one true God, and Islam was the one true religion. Or if you were born in India, Hinduism, etc. You believe your religion because it is the religion of the culture you grew up in. People of other cultures are no different. And they would mostly argue their points exactly like you are, by quoting from their sacred book and sacred prophets.



The gay crowd would strongly disagree with you. They say it isn`t the culture (surroundings they grew up in) it is because they were made that way, born that way, programmed that way and the surroundings have nothing to do with it.

You might be right, though. I too, think it is culture and the surroundings grown up in. I mean all you know is what you are exposed to. The good thing for Christianity is this Gospel is taken into those other countries and is accepted by some.

But the "story" says there is a way that seems right to man but the end is destruction, and man just might follow after his own lust so no one should be "sticker shocked" at how many denominations / religions are out there that may have or may not have gotten it right - it is expected to be that way.

Regardless if the story is fictional or fact, the story itself tells you there will be those deceived. I find it hard that anyone claiming to read it could even phantom the expectation that everyone will agree on what is "right".


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> I’m well-versed in church history.  I just finished a 900-page double biography of Martin Luther and Erasmus … but you’re not my faculty adviser, and I’m not here defending my dissertation.
> 
> I’ll say it again:  post a specific comment or question, and I’ll answer as best I can.  I’m just hoping you can do better than “Jews rejected Jesus, so He can’t be the Messiah”.


I love this post.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Cotton


More like jello.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> More like jello.


Nope. You can nail an atheist to a tree.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 18, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Nope. You can nail an atheist to a tree.


Ok dont care who you are that one is funny 
 Exiting on that one lol.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 18, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> The gay crowd would strongly disagree with you. They say it isn`t the culture (surroundings they grew up in) it is because they were made that way, born that way, programmed that way and the surroundings have nothing to do with it.
> 
> You might be right, though. I too, think it is culture and the surroundings grown up in. I mean all you know is what you are exposed to. The good thing for Christianity is this Gospel is taken into those other countries and is accepted by some.
> 
> ...


True, but, I've never seen many spontaneous Hindus pop up here in the southern Appalachians, and I doubt if many snake-handling Church of God Pentecostal Christians spontaneously pop up in Uttar Pradesh. 

As for the gospel being taken into these countries and accepted by some, would you be convinced to convert by a Buddhist or Hindu missionary who came over here and told you that the religion of your ancestors that you have believed all your life was false and that you now need to start worshiping Vishnu instead of Jesus? I doubt it, and I doubt if people of other cultures are much different with their cultural religions.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 18, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> True, but, I've never seen many spontaneous Hindus pop up here in the southern Appalachians, and I doubt if many snake-handling Church of God Pentecostal Christians spontaneously pop up in Uttar Pradesh.
> 
> As for the gospel being taken into these countries and accepted by some, would you be convinced to convert by a Buddhist or Hindu missionary who came over here and told you that the religion of your ancestors that you have believed all your life was false and that you now need to start worshiping Vishnu instead of Jesus? I doubt it, and I doubt if people of other cultures are much different with their cultural religions.



Under Democrat leadership with open borders………hang in they’re coming.

No I can’t be convinced. There are some here that turn Muslim. But I wouldn’t expect a large percentage of change in either culture. I guess it still comes back to whaat a man will accept and what he finds truth in for himself. That’s the only heart burn I have with some atheist / agnostic; “everyone must agree”. They get so hung up on statistics that they forget this is a personal experience.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Amazing to me how soft atheists are.


Did you learn that from snuggling?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> I’m well-versed in church history.  I just finished a 900-page double biography of Martin Luther and Erasmus … but you’re not my faculty adviser, and I’m not here defending my dissertation.
> 
> I’ll say it again:  post a specific comment or question, and I’ll answer as best I can.  I’m just hoping you can do better than “Jews rejected Jesus, so He can’t be the Messiah”.


When we have a Martin Luther and Erasmus thread going you'll be all set.

I have asked you many specific questions and the "best you can answer" you have given, when you did answer, were vague and without explanation.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Did you learn that from snuggling?


I don’t know what this is supposed to mean.  I don’t know what y’all think I’m going to “learn” here but cracks me up that you boys fancy yourselves such thinkers just because you do t believe in anything or and that you are teachers here.

This forum is emblematic of human nature.  Most people are full of crap and a lot of them don’t even know it.  Most atheists are brimming with bull crap as are most Christians.   Most of the criticisms I see if Christians in this forum are descriptions of most of the atheists who post in it.  That’s the truth.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Nope. You can nail an atheist to a tree.


Yeah well.  Christian’s too.  It’s been done.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I don’t know what this is supposed to mean.  I don’t know what y’all think I’m going to “learn” here but cracks me up that you boys fancy yourselves such thinkers just because you do t believe in anything or and that you are teachers here.
> 
> This forum is emblematic of human nature.  Most people are full of crap and a lot of them don’t even know it.  Most atheists are brimming with bull crap as are most Christians.   Most of the criticisms I see if Christians in this forum are descriptions of most of the atheists who post in it.  That’s the truth.


You fit right in.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 18, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Under Democrat leadership with open borders………hang in they’re coming.
> 
> No I can’t be convinced. There are some here that turn Muslim. But I wouldn’t expect a large percentage of change in either culture. I guess it still comes back to whaat a man will accept and what he finds truth in for himself. That’s the only heart burn I have with some atheist / agnostic; “everyone must agree”. They get so hung up on statistics that they forget this is a personal experience.


Yep. Well said. In the end, most are gonna dance with and go home with the one who brung 'em. The personal experience thing is the main heartburn with me for organized religion, too. I figure if I want to have a relationship with God, the less preachers, bishops, cardinals, popes, deacons, ancient books, and other middlemen that are standing between me and God; the better my relationship will be.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I don’t know what this is supposed to mean.  I don’t know what y’all think I’m going to “learn” here but cracks me up that you boys fancy yourselves such thinkers just because you do t believe in anything or and that you are teachers here.
> 
> This forum is emblematic of human nature.  Most people are full of crap and a lot of them don’t even know it.  Most atheists are brimming with bull crap as are most Christians.   Most of the criticisms I see if Christians in this forum are descriptions of most of the atheists who post in it.  That’s the truth.


You misunderstand. We just mostly like to argue for the sake of arguing. And everyone is full of bullcrap, not just most people.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> You fit right in.


Well if you can be specific as to what I said that’s untrue using more than your feelings I’ll own it.  and “You believe in God (sorry, god in your case) and that isn’t real.” doesn’t float as evidence of that.  Because you dont know that God (sorry, god) isn’t real.  You just don’t believe he is.  Let her rip.  Such a deep thinker should have no trouble with this.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> You misunderstand. We just mostly like to argue for the sake of arguing. And everyone is full of bullcrap, not just most people.


That’s probably the most honest and least self serving thing ever posted here.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> You fit right in.


He's a good feller, and pretty sharp to boot. I have to put up with him in real life, and vice versa. We don't argue then, just on here.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> That’s probably the most honest and least self serving thing ever posted here.


Cheap entertainment.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Cheap entertainment.


Eh.  I much prefer trout streams, guitars and camp fires.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Eh.  I much prefer trout streams, guitars and camp fires.


Me too, but none of those are available at the moment. So, when we going camping again?


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Me too, but none of those are available at the moment. So, when we going camping again?


Well we talked about a Chatooga trip.  You still want to do that?


----------



## 660griz (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Well if you can be specific as to what I said that’s untrue using more than your feelings I’ll own it.  <snipped>


Ok. But I am going to need more info. 





> Amazing to me how soft atheists are.


 How did you come to that conclusion about all atheists?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Well if you can be specific as to what I said that’s untrue using more than your feelings I’ll own it.  and “You believe in God (sorry, god in your case) and that isn’t real.” doesn’t float as evidence of that.  Because you dont know that God (sorry, god) isn’t real.  You just don’t believe he is.  Let her rip.  Such a deep thinker should have no trouble with this.


You don't contribute a thing in here theistic wise. You don't explain anything in an Apologetic way ever. You obviously read until you get worked up and then you grace our presence with some insult and think that we care about your yelp review of an opinion about how you think these discussions should go.
There was a decent conversation going about the Messiah and Earl Christianity.  Yeah some wheel spinning but I was enjoying it and then gOd danuwoa decides to blurt out Atheists are soft.
Well what a contribution. I had no idea we are here to provide your reading pleasure and converse to your liking.

Nobody asked you to learn anything here. I surely didn't. Nobody knows who is reading what or when but nothing I say is meant for you or anyone who is not involved in the conversation. Why do you think I or anyone cares if you like or dislike what you lurk? What makes you think that I care about your opinion anymore than you care about what I am talking to someone else about?

If you have been unable to follow and or understand my posts and recognize lengthy the details, examples and explanations that is on you. If you want to act like I have not been consistent in posting the same way for years that is on you. If you want to dumb it down to your understanding and then say you dont understand it then that is what you have to do. You have every right to ignore my posts and not accept my examples but don't pretend they are not there because you don't like them. I don't care.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

660griz said:


> Ok. But I am going to need more info.  How did you come to that conclusion about all atheists?


I can’t imagine getting tore up over something I claim to not even believe is real.  If that isn’t soft nothing is.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

660griz said:


> Ok. But I am going to need more info.  How did you come to that conclusion about all atheists?


Also you boys cry and whine about people forcing their beliefs on you when nobody dies anything of the sort.  S.O.F.T.  SOFT.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> He's a good feller, and pretty sharp to boot. I have to put up with him in real life, and vice versa. We don't argue then, just on here.


I am sure that in most ways than not he and I would get along as long as religion wasnt brought up.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Eh.  I much prefer trout streams, guitars and camp fires.


And acting as the self appointed Critic of the AAA when the not fishing, not playing the guitar and not around a campfire.


----------



## 660griz (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I can’t imagine getting tore up over something I claim to not even believe is real.  If that isn’t soft nothing is.


I don't get tore up over it. Not sure discussing something is TORE up.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I am sure that in most ways than not he and I would get along as long as religion wasnt brought up.


Dude we could talk about religion and be fine face to face.  Me and Hillbilly have done it and neither one of us got mad.  Because we were just two friends talking.  No big deal.


----------



## 660griz (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Also you boys cry and whine about people forcing their beliefs on you when nobody dies anything of the sort.  S.O.F.T.  SOFT.


You got an awful lot of generalizations. Nobody has forced anything on me. I don't march to keep prayer out of school. Don't care. So, you are one of the, full of **, as well. If I were to post my generalizations about religious folks here, I would probably get banned. Now, who is soft?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I can’t imagine getting tore up over something I claim to not even believe is real.  If that isn’t soft nothing is.


And here you are, tore up enough that you had to comment on conversations that you do not participate in, so you can vent. That is Charmin Soft


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Dude we could talk about religion and be fine face to face.  Me and Hillbilly have done it and neither one of us got mad.  Because we were just two friends talking.  No big deal.


You just can't do it in here?


----------



## 660griz (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Well we talked about a Chatooga trip.  You still want to do that?


Yall do Burrells Ford? Me and my brothers use to do a river trip every year. Camp there. Took the kids there about 15 years ago. Haven't been since. Good times.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

660griz said:


> Yall do Burrells Ford? Me and my brothers use to do a river trip every year. Camp there. Took the kids there about 15 years ago. Haven't been since. Good times.


Yes sir.  Love that spot.  Gotten popular though.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> You don't contribute a thing in here theistic wise. You don't explain anything in an Apologetic way ever. You obviously read until you get worked up and then you grace our presence with some insult and think that we care about your yelp review of an opinion about how you think these discussions should go.
> There was a decent conversation going about the Messiah and Earl Christianity.  Yeah some wheel spinning but I was enjoying it and then gOd danuwoa decides to blurt out Atheists are soft.
> Well what a contribution. I had no idea we are here to provide your reading pleasure and converse to your liking.
> 
> ...


You seem ok other than this persecution complex you drag around along with some weird sort of unearned intellectual superiority that’s mildly annoying but funny as well.

The funniest part is you thinking I read until I get worked up.  When I see this in the most recent posts I check it out.  Usually it’s the same old crap being repeated for the hundredth time.  Every now and then either something will interest me or I’ll just clap my hands loud to get all you yapping little dogs stirred up and I walk away smiling.  It’s so easy. 

You boys don’t seem very sure of the things you claim to be so sure about.  Maybe that’s why you come across as so on edge.




Sometimes I post here just because I know you’ll lose your mind and it’s funny.  Sometimes just so this place isn’t such an echo chamber.

And it’s clear that you care quite a lot.  It’s bothering you a lot more than it bothers me.  I’m laughing at you and how seriously you take yourself and your precious safe space in here.  SOFT.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> You just can't do it in here?


I give what I get.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

660griz said:


> You got an awful lot of generalizations. Nobody has forced anything on me. I don't march to keep prayer out of school. Don't care. So, you are one of the, full of **, as well. If I were to post my generalizations about religious folks here, I would probably get banned. Now, who is soft?


What?


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> And here you are, tore up enough that you had to comment on conversations that you do not participate in, so you can vent. That is Charmin Soft


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 18, 2022)

Ok so back to the trout streams…….my wife and I will hit our favorite spot the first weekend in April. Always get her in there before I start taking my son and son in law.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Mar 18, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Yep. Well said. In the end, most are gonna dance with and go home with the one who brung 'em. The personal experience thing is the main heartburn with me for organized religion, too. I figure if I want to have a relationship with God, the less preachers, bishops, cardinals, popes, deacons, ancient books, and other middlemen that are standing between me and God; the better my relationship will be.



that's a fair and reasonable attitude (I like it) but if everyone thought like you "religion" would be out of business. IMHO most religions are big business. Many billions of dollars involved at all levels, not to mention political power, status, and all the perks & privileges that go along with it.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> that's a fair and reasonable attitude (I like it) but if everyone thought like you "religion" would be out of business. IMHO most religions are big business. Many billions of dollars involved at all levels, not to mention political power, status, and all the perks & privileges that go along with it.


Proves you don’t know as much as you think you know about it.  If a person lives a better life, has more peace of mind, treats other people, helps people when they can, and is just generally a better person because of their beliefs that ain’t going away and has nothing to do with business, power, status etc.  Bunch of post modernists up in here.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I give what I get.


Absolutely no one introduced you into this conversation at all. Nobody called you out. Nobody make a crack at you. You popped and and your post was "Atheists are soft"
You started it.

I was out washing 2 vehicles. 70deg here in the Poconos and a great chance to get the winter road salt and chemicals off our vehicles.
It gave me a chance to reflect on some good conversation in here and think about the statements of guys like Aristotle,  Plato and someone who does 900 pages of religious study. Last but not least I had a chance to reflect on your contribution. "Atheists are Soft".
Wow, ranks right up there.. with hotdogs are yummy and other great works.

Keep on with your stellar contributions and thinking we are here for your entertainment.  I know I enjoy it.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> You seem ok other than this persecution complex you drag around along with some weird sort of unearned intellectual superiority that’s mildly annoying but funny as well.
> 
> The funniest part is you thinking I read until I get worked up.  When I see this in the most recent posts I check it out.  Usually it’s the same old crap being repeated for the hundredth time.  Every now and then either something will interest me or I’ll just clap my hands loud to get all you yapping little dogs stirred up and I walk away smiling.  It’s so easy.
> 
> ...


I just calls em like I sees em.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


>


McGregor is cupcake soft.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Proves you don’t know as much as you think you know about it.  If a person lives a better life, has more peace of mind, treats other people, helps people when they can, and is just generally a better person because of their beliefs that ain’t going away and has nothing to do with business, power, status etc.  Bunch of post modernists up in here.



I'm not saying that religion can't fill the role of giving people piece of mind and whatnot. And yes, the average religious person who also has a "real job" isn't in it for the power or status, but at the top of the religion food chain people are making insane amounts of money and they can't do it without a significant percentage of their followers spreading some money (and the more the better) around.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I just calls em like I sees em.


Then don’t cry and clutch your pearls and give me a rambling treatise about how much you supposedly don’t care when I do the same.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> McGregor is cupcake soft.


I’m sure you could whip him.??


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Proves you don’t know as much as you think you know about it.  If a person lives a better life, has more peace of mind, treats other people, helps people when they can, and is just generally a better person because of their beliefs that ain’t going away and has nothing to do with business, power, status etc.  Bunch of post modernists up in here.


Then you acknowledge religion is not needed to have those things either.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Then don’t cry and clutch your pearls and give me a rambling treatise about how much you supposedly don’t care when I do the same.


Cry? I guess you have to convince yourself of that when you take a scolding.
I'm just pointing out your hypocrisy and your self admitted participation to stir the pot.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I’m sure you could whip him.??


I appreciate your confidence.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I'm not saying that religion can't fill the role of giving people piece of mind and whatnot. And yes, the average religious person who also has a "real job" isn't in it for the power or status, but at the top of the religion food chain people are making insane amounts of money and they can't do it without a significant percentage of their followers spreading some money (and the more the better) around.


Factually true but not the whole story.  And I really don’t spend time worrying about that as there’s not much I can do about it. 

People who say this or that happened to them once or more times and it’s associated with religion so now they’ve sworn it off are often times using that as an excuse because it’s just easier to not adhere to anything other than their own wants and it’s also an easy excuse to just be a nasty person.  This guy is pretty sharp, not a Christian, but sees the value in Christianity.  No bad words in the comments that I saw.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Then you acknowledge religion is not needed to have those things either.


Well I see little evidence of that here.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Cry? I guess you have convince yourself of that when you take a scolding.
> I'm just pointing out your hypocrisy and your self admitted participation to stir the pot.


A scolding?  Jeez.  Is that what you thought you did?  Your scolding skills need a lot of work.  I laughed all the way through reading that nonsense.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I appreciate your confidence.


Change the batteries in your sarcasm detector there champ.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Change the batteries in your sarcasm detector there champ.


Connor needs to step up a couple weight classes and get past those flyweights. Maybe he will do alright against a youtuber.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Connor needs to step up a couple weight classes and get past those flyweights. Maybe he will do alright against a youtuber.


Another topic you speak with authority on but know nothing about.  Seems to be a pattern.  He’s held belts in multiple weight classes and is currently bigger than he’s ever been.  You know about as much about fighting as you do religion.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Change the batteries in your sarcasm detector there champ.


Charge the batteries in your counter sarcasm detector charmin.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Charge the batteries in your counter sarcasm detector charmin.


Yessir boss.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Another topic you speak with authority on but know nothing about.  Seems to be a pattern.  He’s held belts in multiple weight classes and is currently bigger than he’s ever been.  You know about as much about fighting as you do religion.


Yea he is about 190.
About my size in 8th grade.
If you think that is big I won't burst your bubble.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Yea he is about 190.
> About my size in 8th grade.
> If you think that is big I won't burst your bubble.


Well man you’re missing out.  If you’re that big and bad you ought to be in the octagon making the big bucks.  We need to figure out how to get in touch with Dana White.  Maybe he won’t be worried that you’ll hurt everybody.??


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Well man you’re missing out.  If you’re that big and bad you ought to be in the octagon making the big bucks.  We need to figure out how to get in touch with Dana White.  Maybe he won’t be worried that you’ll hurt everybody.??


Nah, thats for the younger guys.
Ill stick to handling what I need to against amateur 5'8" giants.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Nah, thats for the younger guys.
> Ill stick to handling what I need to against amateur 5'8" giants.


For sure.  I’d hate to see what you might do to those UFC guys.?


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

I’m sure they’re breathing a lot easier knowing they won’t have to face Bullethead.?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> For sure.  I’d hate to see what you might do to those UFC guys.?


One day when I actually make a claim that I would do anything to those UFC guys then we will talk.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Well we talked about a Chatooga trip.  You still want to do that?


Yep. Big Snowbird, too.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I’m sure they’re breathing a lot easier knowing they won’t have to face Bullethead.?


I don't think they know me except for you talking me up. I'll let you know when I need a manager.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

Ok men, enough side tracking. Carry on.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> One day when I actually make a claim that I would do anything to those UFC guys then we will talk.


Hey you’re the champ, big guy.?


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 18, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> that's a fair and reasonable attitude (I like it) but if everyone thought like you "religion" would be out of business. IMHO most religions are big business. Many billions of dollars involved at all levels, not to mention political power, status, and all the perks & privileges that go along with it.


Waiiiiiit. I think you got those tv preachers and organizations confused with us common folk just trying to follow what we think is a better way to live and want to share it with anyone interested. For those not interested we’ll still buy you lunch and try to catch a fish together. Most of us aren’t even connected with the organizations.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I don't think they know me except for you talking me up. I'll let you know when I need a manager.


I don’t believe you could whip cream with an outboard motor.  I’m good.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 18, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> the average religious person who also has a "real job" isn't in it for the power or status, but at the top of the religion food chain people are making insane amounts of money.


Most of the average religious world don’t even refer to those folks as religious. Our thoughts on it is just because they’re behind a pulpit screaming they’re religious doesn’t make them any more religious than a broom in the carport screaming I’m a car, a car.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 18, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Waiiiiiit. I think you got those tv preachers and organizations confused with us common folk just trying to follow what we think is a better way to live and want to share it with anyone interested. For those not interested we’ll still buy you lunch and try to catch a fish together. Most of us aren’t even connected with the organizations.


I worked for a branch of one of the major protestant denominations that starts with an M for five years in my younger days. I have never in my life seen so much corruption, greed, dirty politics, adultery, jealousy, embezzlement and such as went on behind the scenes of this church-run organization. There was money in the millions flowing. Organized religion = untaxed corporations.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I don’t believe you could whip cream with an outboard motor.  I’m good.


Work smarter not harder.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Work smarter not harder.


Boo.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Boo.


Terrifying


----------



## brutally honest (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> When we have a Martin Luther and Erasmus thread going you'll be all set.



Totally.

Maybe you can summarize it for us.  It’s not even 100 years.  Of course, you’ll want to discuss all the major reformers (Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Beza, Melanchthon) and their points of agreement and disagreement.  (Don’t leave out that very naughty boy, Thomas Münster.)

Feel free to add a section on the Radical Reformation and the Counter Reformation, and don’t be shy about discussing the role of the Jesuits in the CR.

Or we can discuss the early church.  Pick your poison.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Terrifying
> View attachment 1141476


This reminds me of an old saying that is absolutely true.  It ain’t the size of the dog in th fight but the size of the fight in the dog.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Totally.
> 
> Maybe you can summarize it for us.  It’s not even 100 years.  Of course, you’ll want to discuss all the major reformers (Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Beza, Melanchthon) and their points of agreement and disagreement.  (Don’t leave out that very naughty boy, Thomas Münster.)
> 
> ...


I have not taken the time to research into the reformers other than what I was taught in Sunday school and bible school. Then again I am not making claims about them either.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 18, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I worked for a branch of one of the major protestant denominations that starts with an M for five years in my younger days. I have never in my life seen so much corruption, greed, dirty politics, adultery, jealousy, embezzlement and such as went on behind the scenes of this church-run organization. There was money in the millions flowing. Organized religion = untaxed corporations.


I have no doubt that it exists in everything; denominations, hamburger joints, places of work, hunting leases and family reunions............yes family reunions. But none of it ruins it for me enough to think that every single one of them are that way. 

I despise going to my wife`s family reunion. They are all political; Mayors, City Council, County Commission, Sheriff, etc. Anything to get elected for, they are game on with running for it in their community.  

They actually hold a "minutes" meeting at each reunion to cover last years reunion. That is usually my clue to get my fishing pole out and wander off with a piece fried chicken. 

As far as religion, those involved in that are religion by name only. Nothing spiritual involved in that stuff.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> This reminds me of an old saying that is absolutely true.  It ain’t the size of the dog in th fight but the size of the fight in the dog.


I agree. You see all the major police forces and military units using 5lb and under dogs for the heavy work.
I think the last 5 Iditarod winners were teams of Yorkshire Terriers and Chihuahuas.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I agree. You see all the major police forces and military units using 5lb and under dogs for the heavy work.
> I think the last 5 Iditarod winners were teams of Yorkshire Terriers and Chihuahuas.


You’re not impressive.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> You’re not impressive.


I know, I know, I know. I am just so glad to have my guardian angel, life coach and resident know it all pop in to remind me. It means a lot.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I know, I know, I know. I am just so glad to have my guardian angel, life coach and resident know it all pop in to remind me. It means a lot.


I encourage you to see me in the worst possible light. Whatever that is in your mind, champ.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 18, 2022)

@bullethead he’s posting some of the same things you and I just went through. I was just more gentle about it. Why get so fired up about something you dismiss as bogus?  It’s not good for anyone. If you’re confident, just relax and live longer, after all, this life is the only one you say you got, and it’s short…


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> @bullethead he’s posting some of the same things you and I just went through. I was just more gentle about it. Why get so fired up about something you dismiss as bogus?  It’s not good for anyone. If you’re confident, just relax and live longer, after all, this life is the only one you say you got, and it’s short…


Who is fired up?
I am looking for examples of history outside of posting a scripture verse as evidence of a scripture verse. Not much to ask for.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> @bullethead he’s posting some of the same things you and I just went through. I was just more gentle about it. Why get so fired up about something you dismiss as bogus?  It’s not good for anyone. If you’re confident, just relax and live longer, after all, this life is the only one you say you got, and it’s short…


Because he’s not sure it is bogus and that scares him and that makes him mad.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I encourage you to see me in the worst possible light. Whatever that is in your mind, champ.


Charmin is squeezably soft. That is as worse as I can muster. I just rip , crumple, wipe and flush. Daily routine for many years. I'll use that image.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Charmin is squeezably soft. That is as worse as I can muster. I just rip , crumple, wipe and flush. Daily routine for many years. I'll use that image.


Perfect.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> @bullethead he’s posting some of the same things you and I just went through. I was just more gentle about it. Why get so fired up about something you dismiss as bogus?  It’s not good for anyone. If you’re confident, just relax and live longer, after all, this life is the only one you say you got, and it’s short…


Disregard my #369 reply. Charmin speaks for me now. I am scared and mad. But sometimes I am mad and scared.
Best regards,
Champ


----------



## brutally honest (Mar 18, 2022)

Anybody besides me remember Mr. Whipple?


----------



## oldfella1962 (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> One day when I actually make a claim that I would do anything to those UFC guys then we will talk.



I won't even make a claim that I could do anything (concerning fighting that is) to any UFC gals!  Guarantee a strawweight UFC female would DESTROY me and 99 percent of the male population on any given day.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I won't even make a claim that I could do anything (concerning fighting that is) to any UFC gals!  Guarantee a strawweight UFC female would DESTROY me and 99 percent of the male population on any given day.


Right?  He thinks if you’re bigger than somebody that means you can whip them.  Seen a lot of big guys learn the hard way about that.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Right?  He thinks if you’re bigger than somebody that means you can whip them.  Seen a lot of big guys learn the hard way about that.


Show me where I said that. I commented on McGregors size and that he is a cupcake. His last few fights has proven that.
I never said anything about me fighting him. Not once.
I just let you bark and sit back to watch you add things that aren't even there. You suggested that I fight some UFC guys. 
Now you are trying to put even more of your nonsense into my posts.
What is your problem? Do you have an issue with reading and comprehension or is it a disorder?


----------



## oldfella1962 (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> This reminds me of an old saying that is absolutely true.  It ain’t the size of the dog in th fight but the size of the fight in the dog.



If those little yappy dog breeds grew to the size of a German Shepherd, humans wouldn't be at the top of the food chain.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Show me where I said that. I commented on McGregors size and that he is a cupcake. His last few fights has proven that.
> I never said anything about me fighting him. Not once.
> I just let you bark and sit back to watch you add things that aren't even there. You suggested that I fight some UFC guys.
> Now you are trying to put even more of your nonsense into my posts.
> What is your problem? Do you have an issue with reading and comprehension or is it a disorder?


Yes.  I have a disorder.  I’m allergic to crazy.?. McGregor is soft because he lost to Khabib and Poirier?  That’s so dumb.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> If those little yappy dog breeds grew to the size of a German Shepherd, humans wouldn't be at the top of the food chain.


You ain’t kidding.  Good Lord.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> If those little yappy dog breeds grew to the size of a German Shepherd, humans wouldn't be at the top of the food chain.


Their problem is they think they Shepherd size. Their mouths are lion size but their bite is ankle nipping effective. Its been happening in here all day.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Their problem is they think they Shepherd size. Their mouths are lion size but their bite is ankle nipping effective. Its been happening in here all day.


There you go.  Let it out.  You’ll feel better.????


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Yes.  I have a disorder.  I’m allergic to crazy.?. McGregor is soft because he lost to Khabib and Poirier?  That’s so dumb.


You conviently forgot to post where I said anything about fighting Connor or anyone in the UFC. Couldn't you find it?

Don't forget losses to Diaz and Mayweather. Connor hasn't been the same in 3 fights


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> There you go.  Let it out.  You’ll feel better.????


I just did let it out.
Where did I say I was whipping little guys? You find it yet?


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I just did let it out.
> Where did I say I was whipping little guys? You find it yet?


Something even better.  A picture of you, champ.?


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> You conviently forgot to post where I said anything about fighting Connor or anyone in the UFC. Couldn't you find it?
> 
> Don't forget losses to Diaz and Mayweather. Connor hasn't been the same in 3 fights


I don’t disagree with that last point.  Happens to all of them unless they are like Khabib and leave before they start to fall off.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Something even better.  A picture of you, champ.?View attachment 1141543


?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I don’t disagree with that last point.  Happens to all of them unless they are like Khabib and leave before they start to fall off.


And it is why I said what I said about him. He is getting rolled in his sport lately.  And I don't think he will do any better moving up quite a few weight classes against any of the better talent in those classes who are more naturally suited to the frame and weight.


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## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> And it is why I said what I said about him. He is getting rolled in his sport lately.  And I don't think he will do any better moving up quite a few weight classes against any of the better talent in those classes who are more naturally suited to the frame and weight.


But that isn’t being soft.  That’s what’s so ridiculous about what you said.  His skills are diminishing either because it’s that point or because he’s got so much money now that he doesn’t care as much as he once did.  But he’s not soft.  He would beat the average tough guy like he stole something regardless of how much bigger the guy might be.  That’s just dumb to think otherwise.


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## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> But that isn’t being soft.  That’s what’s so ridiculous about what you said.  His skills are diminishing either because it’s that point or because he’s got so much money now that he doesn’t care as much as he once did.  But he’s not soft.  He would beat the average tough guy like he stole something regardless of how much bigger the guy might be.  That’s just dumb to think otherwise.


The $$$ made him soft. His drive and intensity softened when he got the huge payday.
You see some athletes do it in other sports. They are studs until the ridiculous paycheck and they go soft, comparatively,  to what they were.
I never said he wasn't tough, or that he couldn't fight, or that I would pound him. That is a big difference than what you thought I said and what you kept posting and  insinuating that I said.


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## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> The $$$ made him soft. His drive and intensity softened when he got the huge payday.
> You see some athletes do it in other sports. They are studs until the ridiculous paycheck and they go soft, comparatively,  to what they were.
> I never said he wasn't tough, or that he couldn't fight, or that I would pound him. That is a big difference than what you thought I said and what you kept posting and  insinuating that I said.


That’s kind of your own fault.  It wasn’t like you used any nuance.  And then you started talking about what a big tough guy you think you are so it was pretty easy to get the idea I got.


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## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> That’s kind of your own fault.  It wasn’t like you used any nuance.  And then you started talking about what a big tough guy you think you are so it was pretty easy to get the idea I got.


Again, post where I said what a big tough guy I was.
You have been caught telling flat out lies here and you refuse to own up to it.
I said Connor is 5'8 around 190 now and I was that big in 8th grade.
You got your idea soley from your self because you like to run your mouth despite the facts. Post where I said any different or own up to it.


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## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Again, post where I said what a big tough guy I was.
> You have been caught telling flat out lies here and you refuse to own up to it.
> I said Connor is 5'8 around 190 now and I was that big in 8th grade.
> You got your idea soley from your self because you like to run your mouth despite the facts. Post where I said any different or own up to it.


You called a UFC champion soft and said you were bigger than that when you were in the eighth grade.  Now you can play politician and say that you never said X,Y, and Z but we both know what you were implying.  Now you feel stupid for saying it and want to try and throw it in my lap.   But you said all that silliness, not me.  This is pretty much your SOP so far as I can tell.  Act like you’re the smartest guy in the room, say a bunch of stuff that is your half baked opinion but state it as if we’re irrefutable fact, get called on it, get mad, then gas light and say you never did any of that.  I have laughed harder at the stuff you’ve said in this thread today than I have in a while.


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## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> You called a UFC champion soft and said you were bigger than that when you were in the eighth grade.  Now you can play politician and say that you never said X,Y, and Z but we both know what you were implying.  Now you feel stupid for saying it and want to try and throw it in my lap.   But you said all that silliness, not me.  This is pretty much your SOP so far as I can tell.  Act like you’re the smartest guy in the room, say a bunch of stuff that is your half naked opinion but state it as if we’re irrefutable fact, get called on it, get mad, then gas light and say you never did any of that.  I have laughed harder at the stuff you’ve said in this thread today than I have in a while.


You think you know what I meant and where I am going with comments so you jump the gun and put words into my posts which I absolutely did not make. You had to comb through the posts and saw that I said no such things so now you cannot man up and admit it. So now you assert how I feel in order to try to save face. You are a liar.
I participate in these discussions staying on topic. You contributed nothing to the topics we had going and come in here to start trouble by calling names and throwing out insults. To totally derailed the thread and I am guilty of indulging you only because I am not going to sit back and let you say whatever you want without pointing out your hypocrisy and lies.

I didn't laugh once. You aren't funny, clever or smart. I don't have to act smart around you it just seems that way to you.
Keep up your nonsense until the thread gets shut down. But remember it was a good thread until you posted Atheists Are Soft.


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## brutally honest (Mar 18, 2022)

Bane tells Conor what has happened to his career:


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> You conviently forgot to post where I said anything about fighting Connor or anyone in the UFC. Couldn't you find it?
> 
> Don't forget losses to Diaz and Mayweather. Connor hasn't been the same in 3 fights


 
of course he lost to Mayweather, because it was boxing, not MMA. If it was MMA, then Connor would have won.


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## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> of course he lost to Mayweather, because it was boxing, not MMA. If it was MMA, then Connor would have won.


Yes,  but he wanted that payday and agreed to the rules. He either has knockout power and the skills to land it on Mayweather or he doesn't. 
That isn't Floyd's fault, or mine, or yours.


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## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> You think you know what I meant and where I am going with comments so you jump the gun and put words into my posts which I absolutely did not make. You had to comb through the posts and saw that I said no such things so now you cannot man up and admit it. So now you assert how I feel in order to try to save face. You are a liar.
> I participate in these discussions staying on topic. You contributed nothing to the topics we had going and come in here to start trouble by calling names and throwing out insults. To totally derailed the thread and I am guilty of indulging you only because I am not going to sit back and let you say whatever you want without pointing out your hypocrisy and lies.
> 
> I didn't laugh once. You aren't funny, clever or smart. I don't have to act smart around you it just seems that way to you.
> Keep up your nonsense until the thread gets shut down. But remember it was a good thread until you posted Atheists Are Soft.


And you have proven my original post a hundred times over.


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## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> And you have proven my original post a hundred times over.


Being called soft by a liar means nothing. You are too unfamiliar with this forum to know that I am not an atheist.
No wonder you have a napoleon complex.


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## Danuwoa (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Being called soft by a liar means nothing. You are too unfamiliar with this forum to know that I am not an atheist.
> No wonder you have a napoleon complex.


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## bullethead (Mar 18, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> View attachment 1141588


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Yes,  but he wanted that payday and agreed to the rules. He either has knockout power and the skills to land it on Mayweather or he doesn't.
> That isn't Floyd's fault, or mine, or yours.



Nobody thought Connor had a chance. Nobody can learn high-level boxing (or high-level any sport) in a few months, but nobody was going to turn down all the money to be made on that fight.


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## NCHillbilly (Mar 19, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I have no doubt that it exists in everything; denominations, hamburger joints, places of work, hunting leases and family reunions............yes family reunions. But none of it ruins it for me enough to think that every single one of them are that way.
> 
> I despise going to my wife`s family reunion. They are all political; Mayors, City Council, County Commission, Sheriff, etc. Anything to get elected for, they are game on with running for it in their community.
> 
> ...


That is my point. There was absolutely nothing spiritual about it. It was all about money and influence. And that is most of the churches nowadays-part of a vast network of money and power that fosters corruption. 

I think any time a church gets organized past the local community level, this is what happens. It goes from being about the message and helping folks to just another money-making business.


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## NCHillbilly (Mar 19, 2022)

And by the way, this is getting onto very thin ice. How about let's get back to discussing the topic instead of personal attacks and insults. This is getting into rule violation territory. 

I'm about an inch away from moving this thread to the sports forum.


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## Danuwoa (Mar 19, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> And by the way, this is getting onto very thin ice. How about let's get back to discussing the topic instead of personal attacks and insults. This is getting into rule violation territory.
> 
> I'm about an inch away from moving this thread to the sports forum.


Im on it.  Starting my own UFC thread in the SF  Had no idea a gif would be such a lightning rod.


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## bullethead (Mar 19, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> And by the way, this is getting onto very thin ice. How about let's get back to discussing the topic instead of personal attacks and insults. This is getting into rule violation territory.
> 
> I'm about an inch away from moving this thread to the sports forum.


Thanks for your patience.


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## buckpasser (Mar 20, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> That is my point. There was absolutely nothing spiritual about it. It was all about money and influence. And that is most of the churches nowadays-part of a vast network of money and power that fosters corruption.
> 
> I think any time a church gets organized past the local community level, this is what happens. It goes from being about the message and helping folks to just another money-making business.



I agree. I like certain aspects of a large denomination, but waste and corruption is hard to avoid at some point. Maybe the Amish have it closer to right?


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## NCHillbilly (Mar 21, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I agree. I like certain aspects of a large denomination, but waste and corruption is hard to avoid at some point. Maybe the Amish have it closer to right?


Sometimes I think they're the only folks left in this country who have a lick of sense.


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## Baroque Brass (Mar 21, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> And by the way, this is getting onto very thin ice. How about let's get back to discussing the topic instead of personal attacks and insults. This is getting into rule violation territory.
> 
> I'm about an inch away from moving this thread to the sports forum.


I’ve been away on a camping trip with little to no cell service so I’m just catching up here. I was about to post that not only has the thread been derailed, it went off the cliff and into very rough seas.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 21, 2022)

Baroque Brass said:


> I’ve been away on a camping trip with little to no cell service so I’m just catching up here. I was about to post that not only has the thread been derailed, it went off the cliff and into very rough seas.


There will always be folks who's intention is to do exactly that ^
Sad but true.


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## bullethead (Mar 21, 2022)

I would like to apologize for my participation but sometimes I cannot ignore the personal insults without giving it back.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 21, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I would like to apologize for my participation but sometimes I cannot ignore the personal insults without giving it back.


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## bullethead (Mar 21, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


>


Lololol
We all have our lines in the sand and we've all crossed them to make a point at times.
Every now and then Johnny Ringo needs one through the forehead (figuratively speaking).


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 21, 2022)

who is Johnny Ringo? Is he the "love child" of Johnny Cash and Ringo Starr?
Not judging, just askin'


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## bullethead (Mar 21, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> who is Johnny Ringo? Is he the "love child" of Johnny Cash and Ringo Starr?
> Not judging, just askin'


Doc Holiday handeled him.


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## Danuwoa (Mar 23, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Lololol
> We all have our lines in the sand and we've all crossed them to make a point at times.
> Every now and then Johnny Ringo needs one through the forehead (figuratively speaking).


?


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## Israel (Mar 27, 2022)

Why did Doc Holliday (at least as per this scene and a point the film maker may have wanted to make) have such insight into Johnny Ringo?

So much alike but for one thing?


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## 1gr8buildit (Mar 27, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Amazing to me how soft atheists are.


After reading through all the post, it became clear....Up until this post, this was a typical Woody's discussion. Here is where it went astray.  Right or wrong on the context, at the point that it diminishes to this, it's usually a sure sign that one is unable to "stand toe to toe" in the arena of debate. For the believers whom are unable to prove their faith, I'd like to remind you that it is by faith, not sight. You will never be able to prove it. You need to be ok with this. For those debating scripture,  that's different. You need to address the points or tap out. Bullet, I appreciate your apology for your part in this.


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## Danuwoa (Mar 27, 2022)

1gr8buildit said:


> After reading through all the post, it became clear....Up until this post, this was a typical Woody's discussion. Here is where it went astray.  Right or wrong on the context, at the point that it diminishes to this, it's usually a sure sign that one is unable to "stand toe to toe" in the arena of debate. For the believers whom are unable to prove their faith, I'd like to remind you that it is by faith, not sight. You will never be able to prove it. You need to be ok with this. For those debating scripture,  that's different. You need to address the points or tap out. Bullet, I appreciate your apology for your part in this.


I’m perfectly ok with not being able to prove it.  Doesn’t bother me at all.  It bothers them.  And “debate” is not what they want at all no matter how many times they claim otherwise.  And as much as you may not like what I said, I was proven right in the ensuing cry fest.


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## 1gr8buildit (Mar 27, 2022)

I once stepped into the middle of a discussion gone south on a dirt bike discussion forum. Whether misunderstanding, misinterpretation or other, both posters were right in their own context. So I jokingly said, alright guys, what really matters is who has the prettiest wife in a bikini. That is  the true winner. LOL, one of them posted his wife in a bikini. The other never countered, but he probably would have won...


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## Danuwoa (Mar 27, 2022)

1gr8buildit said:


> I once stepped into the middle of a discussion gone south on a dirt bike discussion forum. Whether misunderstanding, misinterpretation or other, both posters were right in their own context. So I jokingly said, alright guys, what really matters is who has the prettiest wife in a bikini. That is  the true winner. LOL, one of them posted his wife in a bikini. The other never countered, but he probably would have won...


I hear ya.  I just wish people would be honest.  If you don’t believe God exists or just can’t bring yourself to unless he nods at you in the store and introduces himself, or hate religion because you’ve allowed yourself to be convinced it’s a man made institution to control you and stop you from having fun or whatever, I don’t care.  But just say that and don’t try to turn it into something more lofty than that with these nonsensical statements about wanting discussion and debate and being open minded.  Bull.  Atheists aren’t anymore open minded than the people they criticize in most cases.  And the only discussion most of them want is telling whoever will listen how smart they think they are and how open minded they think they are and the only “debate” they want is them saying “Prove it!”.  I’m not going to try to drag any of them to church or fool them into singing any hymns with me.  So the only danger I am to them is exposing their own hypocrisy.


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## 1gr8buildit (Mar 27, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I’m perfectly ok with not being able to prove it.  Doesn’t bother me at all.  It bothers them.  And “debate” is not what they want at all no matter how many times they claim otherwise.  And as much as you may not like what I said, I was proven right in the ensuing cry fest.


I have to give you this, You held your own well with insult and come back,  once you changed the narrative away from addressing Bullets points.


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## Danuwoa (Mar 27, 2022)

1gr8buildit said:


> I have to give you this, You held your own well with insult and come back,  once you changed the narrative away from addressing Bullets points.


Yeah and I shouldn’t have done that.  But you have to address the same points over and over and over and over because they don’t accept your answers.  So it’s just a circle.  And it’s not obvious to me that that isn’t the entire point.


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## 1gr8buildit (Mar 27, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I hear ya.  I just wish people would be honest.  If you don’t believe God exists or just can’t bring yourself to unless he nods at you in the store and introduces himself, or hate religion because you’ve allowed yourself to be convinced it’s a man made institution to control you and stop you from having fun or whatever, I don’t care.  But just say that and don’t try to turn it into something more lofty than that with these nonsensical statements about wanting discussion and debate and being open minded.  Bull.  Atheists aren’t anymore open minded than the people they criticize in most cases.  And the only discussion most of them want is telling whoever will listen how smart they think they are and how open minded they think they are and the only “debate” they want is them saying “Prove it!”.  I’m not going to try to drag any of them to church or fool them into singing any hymns with me.  So the only danger I am to them is exposing their own hypocrisy.


I will refrain from posting anymore in regards to this after I point out this one thing, and then, any comment you make will go unchallenged by me. But for example... Second sentence... Bullet would say "which God" 


Danuwoa said:


> Yeah and I shouldn’t have done that.  But you have to address the same points over and over and over and over because they don’t accept your answers.  So it’s just a circle.  And it’s not obvious to me that that isn’t the entire point.


I quit posting here because it can be exhausting trying to field all the directions a conversation can go. However, these guys will sharpen you as an apologetic. You can't learn to be an apologetic in sunday school. This is the only place. However, everyone is not called to be one


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## Danuwoa (Mar 27, 2022)

1gr8buildit said:


> I will refrain from posting anymore in regards to this after I point out this one thing, and then, any comment you make will go unchallenged by me. But for example... Second sentence... Bullet would say "which God"
> I quit posting here because it can be exhausting trying to field all the directions a conversation can go. However, these guys will sharpen you as an apologetic. You can't learn to be an apologetic in sunday school. This is the only place. However, everyone is not called to be one


I disagree.  You give them far too much credit.


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## bullethead (Mar 27, 2022)

1gr8buildit said:


> After reading through all the post, it became clear....Up until this post, this was a typical Woody's discussion. Here is where it went astray.  Right or wrong on the context, at the point that it diminishes to this, it's usually a sure sign that one is unable to "stand toe to toe" in the arena of debate. For the believers whom are unable to prove their faith, I'd like to remind you that it is by faith, not sight. You will never be able to prove it. You need to be ok with this. For those debating scripture,  that's different. You need to address the points or tap out. Bullet, I appreciate your apology for your part in this.



Might need to add a fourth A to the forum title for those that do not possess any of the skill and knowledge of the A A A's 
Attitudinizer(s).


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## atlashunter (Mar 29, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> The Baptist churches I grew up in, we were sitting there as toddlers listening to the preacher scream angrily about why everybody was going to burn in Helen week in and week out as he jumped up and down and foamed at the mouth. The hate-filled, angry God and burning in Helen as the default position is one of the main things that made me abandon organized Christianity.  I don't need Angry God and Helen in my life.



Been there. I remember a lot of folks really enjoying those "fire and brimstone" sermons. I get the impression a lot of churches have evolved their messaging since those days to cater to a more sensitive generation.


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## 1gr8buildit (Mar 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I have not taken the time to research into the reformers other than what I was taught in Sunday school and bible school. Then again I am not making claims about them either.


I have not either. I see it as studying a road map after you are  lost , having made the wrong turns weeks  ago, totally unable to pinpoint where you are or where you got off.  It began around Constantine, and was forever lost when the Holy Spirit became a 3rd person.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 30, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Been there. I remember a lot of folks really enjoying those "fire and brimstone" sermons. I get the impression a lot of churches have evolved their messaging since those days to cater to a more sensitive generation.


I grew up in the Catholic church where all the "stand then sit then kneel" was the only thing that kept you awake.
Attended a couple of Baptist fire and brimstone services in the early 80s. The kids looked horrified, the adults were mostly all into it. Seemed like a big show to me.
Went to a couple of seriously back woods African American services. I will readily admit thats where I was moved the most. They were truly rejoicing in their belief.


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## Israel (Mar 30, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> They were truly rejoicing in their belief.


yep.


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