# Has any one used braided line instead of



## firebreather (Mar 2, 2017)

A tapered leader? Just wondered.  I caught some bass and an unexpected catfish while fly fishing for bass,  I think that my fluke was a tad to much lure for my line a 4x  just thinking I got lots of line around for my poles ,but braid doesn't give  that's  why I was thinking ,plus 2 tapered leaders are 4$ ,thus not wanting to spend $ all the time


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## IvyThicket (Mar 2, 2017)

A braided leader or furled leader is known for it's turnover power and ability, as it transfers power from the fly line to the tippet more efficiently. Usually that's only a problem on smaller flies that don't have the extra weight to carry itself. 4x should be fine for a bass leader. Just so I can help identify the issue a little more, what weight rod are you using? How long of leader?


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## centerpin fan (Mar 2, 2017)

firebreather said:


> ... not wanting to spend $ all the time



You picked the wrong sport.


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## injun joe (Mar 2, 2017)

If you've got extra mono laying around , you can build your own tapered leaders for nothing.


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## dtala (Mar 2, 2017)

braided line won't turn over like mono. You need to lean to tie your own leaders, it's pretty simple.


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## centerpin fan (Mar 2, 2017)

If I'm fishing subsurface for bluegill, I often use a straight piece of mono or fluoro.  With the beadhead flies I use, it turns over just fine and sinks much better than a tapered leader.


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## IvyThicket (Mar 2, 2017)

dtala said:


> braided line won't turn over like mono. You need to lean to tie your own leaders, it's pretty simple.



Furled leaders are known for their turnover ability. Knotted leaders are known for their lack of smooth turnover because of the abrupt weight changes. However both usually apply to small flies, dries, fished for trout. With weighted flies, you normally won't notice a difference which tells me his issues are probably more than the leader style. There may be some casting issues or the leader is too long. Or maybe he isn't using a heavy enough rod or too light of a rod, and it isn't loading as it should thus not projecting the bait as it should.

As for tying leaders, for what he's doing (bass fishing on the fly), I would highly recommend tying his own tapered leaders. A simple formula such as 2ft of 20lb, then 2ft of 14lb, then 2ft of 10lb, and 2 to 3 feet of 6lb flouro as a tippet section, would be an easy formula.


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## centerpin fan (Mar 2, 2017)

firebreather said:


> ... I think that my fluke was a tad to much lure for my line a 4x ...



You're throwing a fluke with a fly rod?


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## IvyThicket (Mar 2, 2017)

centerpin fan said:


> You're throwing a fluke with a fly rod?



It shouldn't be much different than a large articulated bass fly.


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## centerpin fan (Mar 2, 2017)

IvyThicket said:


> It shouldn't be much different than a large articulated bass fly.



I dunno ....  

I've never picked up a fluke and thought, "Fly rod!"  I'm certainly no purist and am not averse to throwing plastic.  I'd just rather use spinning tackle for that.


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## IvyThicket (Mar 2, 2017)

centerpin fan said:


> I dunno ....
> 
> I've never picked up a fluke and thought, "Fly rod!"  I'm certainly no purist and am not averse to throwing plastic.  I'd just rather use spinning tackle for that.



Any lure where the action is determined by the jerk of the fisherman, could in fact be used successfully by stripping a fly line. There are also many lures that have traversed the spinning/fly realm. Bucktail jigs being of the more well know. I say if you can fish it effectively within the normal motion of fly fishing, go for it. Innovative fishing techniques weren't born out of doing what everyone else is doing or doing what everyone believes you should be doing. If it's legal and you can make it work, have at it!


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## centerpin fan (Mar 2, 2017)

IvyThicket said:


> Any lure where the action is determined by the jerk of the fisherman, could in fact be used successfully by stripping a fly line. There are also many lures that have traversed the spinning/fly realm. Bucktail jigs being of the more well know. I say if you can fish it effectively within the normal motion of fly fishing, go for it. Innovative fishing techniques weren't born out of doing what everyone else is doing or doing what everyone believes you should be doing. If it's legal and you can make it work, have at it!



For me, it's all about the casting.  I find it much more pleasurable to cast heavier lures like flukes on spinning tackle.  "Horses for courses", as they say.


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## Killer Kyle (Mar 2, 2017)

Also, today's "squirmies" are wildly popular flies, but are essentially a rubber worm, often on a jig hook. For some  reason I have been fiercely discriminatory against these and refuse to put one on the line regardless of the fact that I've been known to dunk a worm on a fly rod, and the handle smells like powerbait! Hahaha. Stubbornness I guess. I'm no purist here. Recently I was fishing for wild fish, and was having a slow day. I finally caught one. A little while later, I ran into a hiker who was also a NGTO forum member, and fly fisherman. He asked about the fishing, and asked what I caught the fish on. I said I caught it on the "slumpbuster". I raised the hook keeper and showed him the berkeley power honey worm on the #12 hook with a split shot above it. We both laughed. I said "no shame here", and he said "no judgement!". Haha. Look at all the gummy minnows, crease flies, squirmies, soft plastic eggs, jig nymphs. I even see hard minnow flies with diving lips like crank baits. The lines are so blurred now days, it's really a futile argument. A few weeks ago, I caught two brown trout on a green zoom lizard with my spinning rod. Half of my fishing these days is for the sake of experimentation. That's half the fun of it to me. Last year I (unsuccessfully) fished beetle spins looking for stocked trout just because. It's all in good fun.


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## firebreather (Mar 2, 2017)

Currently I bought a new 5 weight 9 ft  TFO fly rod  it came with backing ,fly line ,and a surgeon's knot which had a 4x  9 ft tapered leader  i've trout fished with it some .
 But lately ive been bass fishing with my  fly rod  , and  after having left shoulder surgery  so using my left arm up high  isn't really an option  , so as I was piddling with my fly rod it's easier to fish with , ive bought some bass lures made by orvis and big fly co as well as trout lures n fly etc , but the bass were nailing the super fluke on a weightless hook , so ive gotten to the point in my life that I put the gun down n only hunt compound now because I guess it's more about the chase ,and the thrill of the hunt more , I guess I'm feeling  the same way about the fly rod instead of a reg rod ,  so I switched up to the fluke n caught fish. 
 My fly buddy told me to put a 2ft leader on the end of my tapered leader ,and I can make several lure changes instead of using up my tapered leader , when it gets down to the end  of my 2 ft leader add a new one ,instead of burning up my 9 ft tapered leader ,that way it will last longer , 
I just thought braid would be better ,NOT beyond spending money ,I just wanna enjoy my time on the water and catch fish ,more species more than trout , 
I was also thinking more about going to a fluke Jr too, it's less weight , just trying new things , and learning along the way 
Lastly  my bud also taught me to have a taught line before pulling my lure from the water to recast to another spot ,along with feeling the line get taught on the backswing to switch to going forward  ,  , just learning ,,,, any helps greatly appreciated,  I just like spending time where I spread my son's ashes and doing what he loved


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## firebreather (Mar 2, 2017)

I also recently installed ,what I call a Chinese  grip connector on the end of my fly line
It's already got a premade loop and the tapered leader has a loop so I made a loop to loop to connect it


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## centerpin fan (Mar 2, 2017)

firebreather said:


> ... along with feeling the line get taught on the backswing to switch to going forward  ,  , just learning ,,,, any helps greatly appreciated ...



If you're casting a heavier fly (or, in this case, a fluke), I strongly suggest you try the Belgian (oval) cast.  It's a much better way to cast weight than the traditional back cast/forward cast.

Check out Youtube for Belgian cast videos.

Having said all that, I'd rather get kicked in the groin than cast a 5" super fluke on a 5wt.  There are lots of small baitfish pattern that will work great and be much easier to cast.


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## NCHillbilly (Mar 2, 2017)

A tapered leader will last me forever. I just tie more tippet to the end of it when it gets short. You're trying to make a spinning rod out of a fly rod.


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## centerpin fan (Mar 2, 2017)

NCHillbilly said:


> You're trying to make a spinning rod out of a fly rod.



Very succinctly put.


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## firebreather (Mar 2, 2017)

NCHillbilly said:


> A tapered leader will last me forever. I just tie more tippet to the end of it when it gets short. You're trying to make a spinning rod out of a fly rod.




 Ok I won't argue ,you don't know what I'm trying to do ,,,and you'd never understand


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## fishndoc (Mar 2, 2017)

I've spent some time casting mini-flukes and roboworms with my heavier fly rods.  Actually, "casting" is not the proper term - it's more of a lob, like nymph fishing in winter with a weighted fly, strike indicator, and half a box of split shot on your leader.

In this case, the weight of the "fly" so over-powers the line and leader, it turns itself over, and you don't need a tapered leader.
 If I'm fishing in shallow water, I'll just use a straight 4-5 ft piece of 15# fluoro leader material;  if deeper, I'll use 4 ft of 25# attached to 3-4 ft of 15#. 

Not a pretty way to fish, but very effective for bass.


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## injun joe (Mar 2, 2017)

fishndoc said:


> I've spent some time casting mini-flukes and roboworms with my heavier fly rods.  Actually, "casting" is not the proper term - it's more of a lob, like nymph fishing in winter with a weighted fly, strike indicator, and half a box of split shot on your leader.
> 
> In this case, the weight of the "fly" so over-powers the line and leader, it turns itself over, and you don't need a tapered leader.
> If I'm fishing in shallow water, I'll just use a straight 4-5 ft piece of 15# fluoro leader material;  if deeper, I'll use 4 ft of 25# attached to 3-4 ft of 15#.
> ...



We used to do the same with nightcrawlers. It is terribly effective.


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## firebreather (Mar 2, 2017)

fishndoc said:


> I've spent some time casting mini-flukes and roboworms with my heavier fly rods.  Actually, "casting" is not the proper term - it's more of a lob, like nymph fishing in winter with a weighted fly, strike indicator, and half a box of split shot on your leader.
> 
> In this case, the weight of the "fly" so over-powers the line and leader, it turns itself over, and you don't need a tapered leader.
> If I'm fishing in shallow water, I'll just use a straight 4-5 ft piece of 15# fluoro leader material;  if deeper, I'll use 4 ft of 25# attached to 3-4 ft of 15#.
> ...





Yea right now it's just 6ft max depth just trying to key in on points, and ditches up of the edge of a point where bass are pulling up for the pre spawn , especially shallow stumps etc


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## NCHillbilly (Mar 3, 2017)

firebreather said:


> Ok I won't argue ,you don't know what I'm trying to do ,,,and you'd never understand



Yes, I understand what you're trying to do, because I have done it before. 

I also understand that you are asking for advice on a fly-fishing forum from folks who have been fly fishing for decades and have tens of thousands of hours of collective experience, then discount any advice that they give you, and insult them to boot. Do what you want, but don't ask for advice if you feel that you already know more about fly fishing than the folks you are asking.


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## IvyThicket (Mar 3, 2017)

NCHillbilly said:


> You're trying to make a spinning rod out of a fly rod.



C'mon now. That's a little insulting to say the least. He's throwing a fluke, not a crankbait. As if one would fish a fluke any differently for bass than he would a Clouser. 

Some of you say you aren't purist but you are sure are acting like it. I was taught fly fishing here in the NC mountains by my grandfather who taught himself to fly fish here in the 1930’s by finding bugs on the stream, fishing with them, and then tying an imitation with whatever he had. So I get it, I do, but I'm not going to trash a man doing anything that gets a fly rod in his hand. He'll figure out what works and what doesn't as we all have.

Don't worry about using the tippet section of your leader either. You can always tie more on.

The fly fishing industry is evolving every day. What was once a very reasonable and cheap sport has become dominated by gear heads, where you get judged stepping out of the truck by what name you have on your net, waders, pack or reel. What once was a sport predicated on small dry flies tied from organic material you could cut off of your deer, turkey, pheasant or grouse kill, has now become dominated by synthetics and fluorescent dyed animal products. At one time all you needed on the stream was a rod, reel, leader and a dip can filled with flies. Now it’s 8 spools of tippet, 4 fly boxes, a package of strike indicators, a package of spit shot, a water thermometer, a leader wallet, a Go Pro camera and a craft beer, all in a $200 glorified fanny pack. None of it is wrong, it’s all preference. I think nearly all of these innovations and styles at one point or another were figured out by someone who was told he was doing it wrong. It’s like the guy who is getting trashed for tying a worm that catches a ton of fish, out of a puffer ball, because it wasn’t created from something he could find in a fly shop, as if a squirmy is anything different solely because it is packaged for fly fisherman. I think a lot of people forget that the very root of fly fishing is taking what you have around you and what is readily available to you, and figuring out how it can catch fish and how many different ways you can fish it. It’s not about what Orvis has conveniently packaged for you. He's obviously having some difficulty, but I don't think the fluke is it. It may be the size of the fluke, but not the fluke itself.

Rant over.



firebreather said:


> My fly buddy told me to put a 2ft leader on the end of my tapered leader ,and I can make several lure changes instead of using up my tapered leader , when it gets down to the end  of my 2 ft leader add a new one ,instead of burning up my 9 ft tapered leader ,that way it will last longer



I think this is your biggest issue right here. 11ft of leader is WAY too long. If you’re false casting with that big of a fly and 11ft of leader, you’d have to have a TON of fly line off the reel  and loading the road, to get the fluke to turnover properly. Chances are you’re not getting that much line off because you don’t need it. In turn you’re trying to project the fly on mainly the leader. There’s not enough power transfer in that and thus your fly is falling short or not casting properly. I rarely recommend a leader longer than the rod you’re using. Some exceptions are if you’re doing doing some form of European nymphing or saltwater fishing. I tie French leaders so long that I don’t even get fly line off the reel but of course that doesn’t apply to you. Even the standard Bonefish/Saltwter leader is only around 9-10ft. Shorten the leader, use a lighter fluke and try it again.

Don't worry about using the tippet section on your leader either. You can always tie more on.


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## NCHillbilly (Mar 3, 2017)

IvyThicket said:


> C'mon now. That's a little insulting to say the least. He's throwing a fluke, not a crankbait. As if one would fish a fluke any differently for bass than he would a Clouser.
> 
> Some of you say you aren't purist but you are sure are acting like it. I was taught fly fishing here in the NC mountains by my grandfather who taught himself to fly fish here in the 1930’s by finding bugs on the stream, fishing with them, and then tying an imitation with whatever he had. So I get it, I do, but I'm not going to trash a man doing anything that gets a fly rod in his hand. He'll figure out what works and what doesn't as we all have.
> 
> ...



Not intended as a purist remark at all. I have thrown everything from flatfish plugs to Joefly spinners to small rapalas to live nightcrawlers on a fly rod over the years. 

It was intended as saying that one reason he's having problems is because a fly rod really isn't designed to cast heavy, bulky spinning lures. The same problems apply to weighted streamers. Most of the time with that kind of thing, you have to more flip and roll it than cast it in the traditional sense. You're not going to get a pretty cast with a tight loop throwing a big rubber fluke like you would with a dry fly. Basically the same thing you are saying. Some lures work better with some equipment, that's why there are different types of equipment. 

And I agree that 11' is way too long for a bass leader. When I fly fish for bass, which I do quite a bit in the summertime, I usually use about a 7 1/2' leader that consists of a tapered leader stub with a couple-three feet of about 8-10 lb. mono as a tippet. The big heavy flies will usually turn it right over.


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## centerpin fan (Mar 3, 2017)

NCHillbilly said:


> It was intended as saying that one reason he's having problems is because a fly rod really isn't designed to cast heavy, bulky spinning lures.



Same here.  Most beginners have enough trouble casting tiny flies.  Why make things worse throwing a big chunk of plastic?


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## centerpin fan (Mar 3, 2017)

IvyThicket said:


> Some of you say you aren't purist but you are sure are acting like it. I was taught fly fishing here in the NC mountains by my grandfather who taught himself to fly fish here in the 1930’s by finding bugs on the stream, fishing with them, and then tying an imitation with whatever he had. So I get it, I do, but I'm not going to trash a man doing anything that gets a fly rod in his hand. He'll figure out what works and what doesn't as we all have.



Again, I don't care how anyone fishes.  I grew up reading Ted Trueblood's stories of using redworms with his fly rod.  I'm a big fan of Tom Nixon, who threw big plastic worms and even spinnerbaits on his fly rods.  Personally, I've thrown plastics and live bait with my fly rods.  I've even been known to cast artificial flies.

But the guy did ask for help.  You and I both know there's not a fly instructor on earth who would counsel a beginner to use a 5wt with 4X tippet to throw a 5" fluke.


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## IvyThicket (Mar 3, 2017)

NCHillbilly said:


> It was intended as saying that one reason he's having problems is because a fly rod really isn't designed to cast heavy, bulky spinning lures. The same problems apply to weighted streamers. Most of the time with that kind of thing, you have to more flip and roll it than cast it in the traditional sense. You're not going to get a pretty cast with a tight loop throwing a big rubber fluke like you would with a dry fly. Basically the same thing you are saying. Some lures work better with some equipment, that's why there are different types of equipment.



I completely agree with this HOWEVER, the fluke isn't the issue. The size of the fluke is. He could easily fish a 3" Zoom tiny fluke and it not weigh anymore than size 8 Girdle Bug with a lead wire wrap. I just found exception to saying he is wrong for even trying the fluke.


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## IvyThicket (Mar 3, 2017)

centerpin fan said:


> But the guy did ask for help.  You and I both know there's not a fly instructor on earth who would counsel a beginner to use a 5wt with 4X tippet to throw a 5" fluke.



Completely agree but I know of many who, especially if he said he was lake fishing, wouldn't discourage him from trying different lures whether they were solely marketed to fly fisherman or not. Heck, he could probably even get away with tossing 3" slim senko's as a wacky rig.

Again, I don't take exception with telling him he's using it incorrectly. I do with telling him not to use lures marketed towards spin gear, on a fly rod. The fluke is too heavy, I do agree.


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## firebreather (Mar 3, 2017)

Thanks ,  I guess from what I'm reading is 
1 cut 2 ft of my tapered line ,or use almost 2 ft of of it then tie on an 2 ft leader on ,that way when I change lure or what ever when my leader gets to short I can put a new one on , I'm not saying I was with intent to go and throw a fluke on purpose , I bought lots of bass lures designed for my fly  rod , but they weren't hitting it , . BUT!!! They were hitting the fluke on the spinning reel , and I wanted to catch them on my fly rod so bad,  I put the only thing on I had ,,the fluke, now I'm gonna buy some small flukes to make it less harder on my rod , Lord knows I knew I was pushing my limits , but when they bit that fly rod it was so much sweeter than the spinning rod , NOT to mention when that 3lb cat inhaled that fluke as well.  
 I was also told don't throw a  line or tapered leader longer than my pole so I figured 9ft pole ,=9ft leader or if you will tapered line


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## injun joe (Mar 3, 2017)

Stay after it, Firebreather, it's mostly a trial and error thing anyway.

" I grew up reading Ted Trueblood's stories of using redworms with his fly rod."
^This is how my grandfather taught me to fish. I'll never forget those trips.


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## firebreather (Mar 3, 2017)

2nd do they make a fluke that's designed for Fly rods?  Or is the fluke jr  still to big 
Dont get me wrong , i want to fish rivers too . But some local lakes are closer to me and time wise with work load easier to get to .not to mention i like the idea of fishing for bass with a fly rod as well as trout 
 And if this plays out well I'll probably go buy a bigger fly rod for bass only,  but buying the TFO  set up was a substantial cost for me  ,before i really step of the deep end and get into it whole heartily. 
But with my time right now I need more practice and besides the backyard and a couple of 5 gal buckets to cast to I like being  on the water for realtime practice


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## centerpin fan (Mar 3, 2017)

firebreather said:


> 2nd do they make a fluke that's designed for Fly rods?  Or is the fluke jr  still to big



If you're wedded to the fluke, I'd get the smallest one they make.  As I said before, try the Belgian cast.

Also, I just want to encourage you to try some actual flies, not because that's the "pure" thing to do, but because they will be much easier to cast.  Any small baitfish pattern will work well.  (FWIW, I buy a lot of mine at Cabela's.)


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## GLS (Mar 3, 2017)

firebreather said:


> I also recently installed ,what I call a Chinese  grip connector on the end of my fly line
> It's already got a premade loop and the tapered leader has a loop so I made a loop to loop to connect it



Prepare yourself for it releasing at the worst time.


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## NCHillbilly (Mar 3, 2017)

firebreather said:


> Thanks ,  I guess from what I'm reading is
> 1 cut 2 ft of my tapered line ,or use almost 2 ft of of it then tie on an 2 ft leader on ,that way when I change lure or what ever when my leader gets to short I can put a new one on , I'm not saying I was with intent to go and throw a fluke on purpose , I bought lots of bass lures designed for my fly  rod , but they weren't hitting it , . BUT!!! They were hitting the fluke on the spinning reel , and I wanted to catch them on my fly rod so bad,  I put the only thing on I had ,,the fluke, now I'm gonna buy some small flukes to make it less harder on my rod , Lord knows I knew I was pushing my limits , but when they bit that fly rod it was so much sweeter than the spinning rod , NOT to mention when that 3lb cat inhaled that fluke as well.
> I was also told don't throw a  line or tapered leader longer than my pole so I figured 9ft pole ,=9ft leader or if you will tapered line



There is something about hooking a fish on a fly rod, for sure. It just feels better fighting.


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## NCHillbilly (Mar 3, 2017)

IvyThicket said:


> I completely agree with this HOWEVER, the fluke isn't the issue. The size of the fluke is. He could easily fish a 3" Zoom tiny fluke and it not weigh anymore than size 8 Girdle Bug with a lead wire wrap. I just found exception to saying he is wrong for even trying the fluke.



You're misreading me. I never said he shouldn't try the fluke or said it was a bad thing. As I said, I've fished worms with a fly rod in my younger days. My point was that it just wasn't going to be as easy as casting a fly. Those girdle bugs don't cast easy, either-especially for a beginner. I usually just lob and roll them myself.


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## firebreather (Mar 4, 2017)

Saw a video ,or a 5 sec clip of a guy holding his lure and putting pressure on his line and rod and letting go , what kind cast is that called ,? 
I didn't see a video on how to do that , I did however look at the belgian oval , but looked like the short one I saw  the guy was trying to put a fly in a exact spot shooting it in there


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## centerpin fan (Mar 4, 2017)

firebreather said:


> Saw a video ,or a 5 sec clip of a guy holding his lure and putting pressure on his line and rod and letting go , what kind cast is that called ,?
> I didn't see a video on how to do that , I did however look at the belgian oval , but looked like the short one I saw  the guy was trying to put a fly in a exact spot shooting it in there



The first cast you mention sounds like a bow-and-arrow cast.

As for the Belgian, it's great for casting weight.

Videos are good, but nothing will help you as much as a lesson from a good teacher.  Starting out right can save you years of frustration.  Orvis stores often have FREE beginners classes.  Take one!


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## IvyThicket (Mar 7, 2017)

The Belgian Cast is a great recommendation for casting into the wind and casting heavier flies. It's essentially a more open and wide version of a roll cast. It keeps your line moving on the water so that there's always tension. You could also learn to double haul. Hauling the line get's it moving faster.


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## swampstalker24 (Mar 7, 2017)

Go out and get ya some nice meaty zonkers or maribu streamers ....  once you see how those suckers come alive in the water you'll forget all about those dang flukes!!


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