# Parable of the Mustard Seed?



## Artfuldodger (Jul 18, 2014)

Who looks at this parable of the mustard seed as A.W. Pink did in relating it to a false church? 
I've always thought Christianity would grow bigger and bigger as time progesses. Perhaps it is this false church Pink is talking about instead of the true Church. 
Is it Biblical to assume the true Church will grow bigger or is it now getting smaller?

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Parables/parables_03.htm


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 18, 2014)

The parable as interpreted by Peter Ditzel;

The fact that in this parable a mustard seed becomes bigger than all herbs or vegetables and, in fact, becomes a big tree should cause us to be suspicious of the simplistic explanations given by most commentators. In the previous parables, grain seeds grew into grain, tare seeds grew into tares. But in this parable, a mustard seed becomes a tree. Surely, this has meaning. If we ignore it, we will not understand this parable.

The parable shows us that we ought to know and expect that the institutional church system in this world—Christendom—is not the ekklēsia of Christ and it is not genuine Christianity. Certainly, there are Christians in it. But it would save them much frustration and heartache in trying to deal with that system if they would just come out of it.

The parables we have already examined in this series teach us that the simple application of God's Word brings forth the fruit that God has ordained. Additionally, the Parable of the Tares taught us Satan will also sow his seed that will result in false Christians who look very much like real Christians. They will invent false doctrine and establish their institutional Christian church with its branches to try to root out real Christianity. Thus, the Parable of the Mustard Seed pictures this false, institutional church. With this parable, Jesus was warning us of this so we could be prepared to expect the large, visible church (and its branches) to not be the church He established. 

http://www.wordofhisgrace.org/par4mustard2.htm


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## Day trip (Jul 18, 2014)

I do not feel like Pink has an accurate interpretation.  When discussing the kingdom of God, I don't believe it is the same as discussing the church.  I don't feel like Christ is saying the church will grow like a mustard seed.  "Enter through the narrow gate," suggests that many are trying to enter through the "wide" gate and will fail to acquire the kingdom.  
The kingdom of God is inside of you, inside of me and if given the proper nourishment it will grow to the size of the largest tree.  The mustard seed is the word of God written in our hearts so we no longer need to teach our family and friends how to know God.  We all can know God.  We simply must nourish the seed and allow it to grow.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 18, 2014)

Art, I believe these interpretations are despicable. There's a philosophical reason these men wanted to dim the future and teach opposite of our Lord, but I will try to stay away from that at this point.


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## centerpin fan (Jul 18, 2014)

*Interesting juxtaposition ...*



Artfuldodger said:


> The parable as interpreted by Peter Ditzel;
> 
> The fact that in this parable a mustard seed becomes bigger than all herbs or vegetables and, in fact, becomes a big tree should cause us to be suspicious of the simplistic explanations given by most commentators. In the previous parables, grain seeds grew into grain, tare seeds grew into tares. But in this parable, a mustard seed becomes a tree. Surely, this has meaning. If we ignore it, we will not understand this parable.
> 
> ...







hobbs27 said:


> This is a cut and paste from here:http://www.faithfacts.org/bible-101/interpreting-the-bible
> 
> The question is ; is this a true statement or false in your opinion? From the cut text only please.
> 
> ...




http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=809720


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## gordon 2 (Jul 18, 2014)

I have always know the parable of the mustard seed that grows into a tree as a comparison of what the Kingdom would eventually become for man. From a little bit of faith and a small group of followers who worked to establish the beginnings of the spiritual Kingdom and then to much more faith and many more followers, the believers would eventually be able to live in the spiritual-physical Kingdom of the Good News. The saints are as the birds in the parable who eventually live in the tree--a tree planted in faith as regards the Kingdom.

Never did I see it as a parable describing the church, but rather another example of "The Kingdom is like this: " It describes a place with no borders, far above politics and the organization of the church. If I recall that mustard seed eventually over takes the field to become a home.

But I might be totally off.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 18, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> Interesting juxtaposition ...



Yes . But one really needs to look at the timing of the statement. Is Christianity anymore divided today as it was then? I don't think so. 

 The text I quoted is from a man that is attempting to challenge Christians to considered our differences with open minds and let's come together in this Information Age.  You may ask how I know this? It's because I'm reading a book written by him now, and I belong to a couple of closed fb groups that he participates in. The authors name is Charles Meek.


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## centerpin fan (Jul 18, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Yes . But one really needs to look at the timing of the statement. Is Christianity anymore divided today as it was then?



Weren't they written within a few years of one another? 




hobbs27 said:


> The text I quoted is from a man that is attempting to challenge Christians to considered our differences with open minds and let's come together in this Information Age.



That's admirable, but I think most people have their minds made up on what they believe.  This forum offers proof of that on an almost daily basis.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 18, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> Weren't they written within a few years of one another?


  Yes my bad, I was thinking of the first quote by Arthur Pink.





centerpin fan said:


> That's admirable, but I think most people have their minds made up on what they believe.  This forum offers proof of that on an almost daily basis.



 I have changed some of my views, and some from conversations on this forum. I believe this is the point of Charles Meek...we should be testing as Paul instructs us, instead of saying I am a "------" and thats the way we believe.


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## centerpin fan (Jul 18, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I have changed some of my views ...



As have I.

Again, I think Meek's idea is fine, but I'd guess he has some issues he's not budging on.


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## centerpin fan (Jul 18, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I have changed some of my views, and some from conversations on this forum. I believe this is the point of Charles Meek...we should be testing as Paul instructs us, instead of saying I am a "------" and thats the way we believe.



My guess is Meek wants unity (because most Christians do.)  The problem is that everybody wants unity on what they believe.

I just heard Dennis Prager say something pertinent to this discussion.  He was talking politics, but it's still applicable:

"There's no one in the history of the Earth that has wanted unity on his opponents values."


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## Israel (Jul 18, 2014)

To me it has come to mean consciously will yourself to have faith as much as the mustard seed does to be a mustard seed.


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## centerpin fan (Jul 18, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> ... and I belong to a couple of closed fb groups that he participates in.



What are the subjects of the group discussions?


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## Israel (Jul 18, 2014)

One either proceeds from the truth that all disciples of Jesus are one in the Lord...or leaves the truth of that to set about to make what is not true...real.
Believe the truth, and the Lord will manifest it.
After all, it's his labor in the truth.
We don't "make" what is there...the unity of the spirit.

We may just learn of the things "of ourselves" that hinder its manifestation.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 18, 2014)

Good discussion guys, the Parable of the mustard seed was told right after two other parables. It has to be related. One has to see it as the continued warning or after giving them the other two, Jesus was offering inspiration. Either way it has to be about the growth of the Church.
What are some Bible verses related to how big the Church will get or how into spreading the gospel we should be? If only a minority of people will accept the message as in the Parable of The Sower and many individuals in the Church are tares as in the Wheat and tares, doesn't the Parable of the Mustard Seed follow with this reasoning? Doesn't all three parables teach this?
Why even teach spreading the Gospel with such a small group accepting and even within that group many are pseudo-Christians?
And with Satan's influence of forming false churches?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 18, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Yes . But one really needs to look at the timing of the statement. Is Christianity anymore divided today as it was then? I don't think so.
> 
> The text I quoted is from a man that is attempting to challenge Christians to considered our differences with open minds and let's come together in this Information Age.  You may ask how I know this? It's because I'm reading a book written by him now, and I belong to a couple of closed fb groups that he participates in. The authors name is Charles Meek.



I looked around the Faithfacts site and saw a picture of a couple but never saw any names associated with that site. Have you presented them with the parable of the mustard seed in relation to denominational branches or divisions?


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## hobbs27 (Jul 18, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> What are the subjects of the group discussions?



You know me, it's eschatology.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 18, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> My guess is Meek wants unity (because most Christians do.)  The problem is that everybody wants unity on what they believe.
> 
> I just heard Dennis Prager say something pertinent to this discussion.  He was talking politics, but it's still applicable:
> 
> "There's no one in the history of the Earth that has wanted unity on his opponents values."



That's a good point about unity. Even if we had no denominations Christians would still be divided and this parable proves this. That is why Hobbs has suggested the importance of reading the Bible in different lights, through the eyes of others if you will to test if your way is correct.
This is very hard to do if one grew up believing the parable of the mustard seed is about inspiration instead of warning.
Maybe it is and maybe it's not but look at those two possibilities and any others.
Maybe repentance means to quit sinning and maybe it means to change ones mind about saving oneself instead of believing Jesus did it by himself. Explore both possibilities before telling someone to repent. Remove those denominational blinders and test the spirits. Test me as a spirit and I'll test you. I believe that is what Paul wants us to do.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 18, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I looked around the Faithfacts site and saw a picture of a couple but never saw any names associated with that site. Have you presented them with the parable of the mustard seed in relation to denominational branches or divisions?



No, this is something new to the discussion.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 18, 2014)

Grace Baptist Church:

 The seed…

2.     The Tree*

v. 32  Much like the leaven of the next verse, many misunderstand this part of the parable, saying it is a tribute to the worldwide success of the church. 

But we reject this notion, for several reasons:

A mustard seed is a plant, not a tree.  This is an aberration, not normal.  It becomes something it was never meant to be.

The parable before it is about counterfeit Christians [tares] and the one after it [leaven] is about counterfeit doctrine.  I believe this mustard seed grows into the counterfeit church.

And here’s where it’s all heading:  in the end times we will have a one world church.  The cry of the day is globalism.  It's one world this and one world that.  Our president is considered president of the world, and even Superman is now for truth, justice, and the international way!

And how to we get to the one world church mentality?  Through all of our churches coming together.  I like it when likeminded churches can work together, but the Bible warns against joining w/ those whose doctrine is different.  And though I believe in being friendly with those who agree with us in Christ, even if we have different preferences, I say we need to be wary of today’s movement which says, lay down your doctrine and tear down the walls of separation which divide churches.  The ecumenical movement is a greased slide toward the one world church, and we need have no part of it!

http://www.gbcdecatur.org/sermons/MustardSeed.html


Is this "One World Church" prophesy Biblical and why should we have no part of it?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 18, 2014)

We must also consider the parable of the leaven/yeast as whether it is a positive message of inspiration or if it too is a warning of corruption in the Church. 
I'm not real sure what they are exactly talking about but I am sure they are 100% connected in meaning.

In the Parable of the Sower, God's Word is rejected. In the Wheat and Tares, God's work is opposed. In the Mustard Seed, attempts are made to thwart God's plan. In the Parable of the Leaven, God's doctrines are corrupted.

While some commentaries interpret this parable as depicting the spreading influence of the gospel, such explanations go against Jesus' use of this symbol. He uses it to refer to the evil doctrine of the Pharisees, the Sadducees, and Herod (Matthew 16:6-12; Mark 8:15), and this could easily apply to later corruptions of doctrine by those who place more importance on the traditions of men than on the Word of God.

http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -/k/1133/Parable-of-Leaven.htm


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 18, 2014)

Matthew 13:33  


    (33) Another parable He spoke to them: "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened."

        New King James Version


Most of the time, commentators interpret this parable just as they interpret the Parable of the Mustard Seed—that the Kingdom would grow big and eventually encompass the whole earth, and everything would be great. Hallelujah! But is this correct?

When the Jews heard this parable, they must have been astounded. If Jesus told us that the Kingdom of God was like leaven in bread, what would we think? It does not sound very good to us—nor did it sound right to the Jews—because we know what leaven represents in Scripture: the corruption of sin. How can the Kingdom be likened to leaven? It is almost unthinkable that the Kingdom of God would be full of leaven throughout. Is the Kingdom evil? Is it full of sin? This does not square with what we learn in the Old Testament. The Kingdom is supposed to be glorious and pure, and Jesus is telling us that the Kingdom is full of leaven. How can this be?

And we are right! Everywhere else in the Bible where the word "leaven" or "unleavened" appears, "leaven" carries with it a negative implication. Yet, according to the commentators, this one case is the exception! In 87 out of 88 times, it means something bad, but here in Matthew 13, leaven is positive. Why? It does not make sense for a God who is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Hebrews 13:8). Leaven must still be negative here.

http://www.theberean.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Home.showBerean/BereanID/5339/Matthew-13-33.htm


"Transformed By The Renewing Of Our Minds" (Romans 12:2)

"One way the Bible transforms us is through our understanding. Romans 12:2 says, "Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God." When we let the Bible guide our thinking, our minds are renewed and transformed, so we begin to actually think like God thinks."

 Matthew 13:24-33 - Parables that illustrate corruption in the kingdom community on Earth: What is the parable of the wheat and the tares?, What is the parable of the mustard seed?, What does it mean that the mustard seed grew to the size of tree?, & What is the parable of the leaven in the meal? (Part 3)
Parables that illustrate corruption in the kingdom community on Earth.

http://jesusisgod316.blogspot.com/2014/04/matthew-1324-33-parables-that.html


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## gordon 2 (Jul 19, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Matthew 13:33
> 
> 
> (33) Another parable He spoke to them: "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened."
> ...




WoW! My thougths have always gone in the direction of the  "good" in the Good News of the Kingdom and not the negative. Mustard is a spice... good.

 Leaven in bread.. well just last night I made bread in a bread making machine and I started the machine only to realize I had not added leaven, ( hid leaven in four measures (cups) of meal.) So I stopped the machine and added leaven and hoped. My hope this morning was not in vain. Hum, hum!

Also my mom use to make 24 loafs of bread every week for us 8 kids ( 7 boys) when I was growing up. All good in many ways. 

The leaven of malice is not the leaven of bread for me. The women's three measure leaven hid in the meal is a precursor of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit for me.

The mustard seed is a spice as faith is the spice of life and in the parable a symbol of what is required to graft us to the tree of life and for it a whole new way of seeing, hearing and sharing.

 The mustard seed is a symbol of the Cross which is the Cross now in all of us. A seed that had to die  which was first the cross of our savoir and now the billions of crosses in the billions of believers. The Kingdom is the home of the born again, and the Kingdom being in them it re-creates our worlds. It re-creates our seeing, our hearing and our reading of the parables... and scripture in general. It recreates life! from the example of our Second Adam which is our model!

Also Jesus was a Galilean a rural-fishing area were the harvest of basic agricultural crops and the yield of the sea were transformed. Bread, spices, salt, grapes, wine, leaven were all good things here because they were for family, weddings and worship. On the other hand, the bread,  the spices,  the wines and the leavens and salt of the slickers in Jerusalem  were not seen in such a good light. When describing the Kingdom, especially that it was The Good News!... I don't think Jesus would have made reference to his foil. But I could be wrong... 

So simply because of the Good News, because of redemption and salvation, because of the Cross in me, the mustard seed parable, especially that it is a parable about the Kingdom that I know of intimately as a real "place" in my consciousness and in the consciousness of others and part of the fabric of our faith and not only  a spiritual possibility related to in scripture--- the mustard seed parable is all positive.  And when I read that the birds will live in that seed when it becomes a tree, I think of the laying of hands and how the Holy Spirit came to live in you, and you  and you  and in me... and  all for the grace of God who thought good to give as He preaches.

But then I might be completely off. I mean The Bereans are really bible smart.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 19, 2014)

The message was to the Jew of that time. It had meaning to them. Jesus never burdened them with things that would happen way later on. The message was, The Kingdom is at hand!

It did grow, from just one man and twelve followers. It also endured corruption early on, but I have yet to see where that was the message Christ was giving the Jew.

It doesn't fit .."Repent for the Kingdom is near! And it's going to be a corrupt one."

No the message seemed more like, " Repent for the Kingdom is near and will save you from the sin death of the law"


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 19, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> WoW! My thougths have always gone in the direction of the  "good" in the Good News of the Kingdom and not the negative. Mustard is a spice... good.
> 
> Leaven in bread.. well just last night I made bread in a bread making machine and I started the machine only to realize I had not added leaven, ( hid leaven in four measures (cups) of meal.) So I stopped the machine and added leaven and hoped. My hope this morning was not in vain. Hum, hum!
> 
> ...



You could be off, I could be wrong, most assuredly the Bereans could be wrong. That's why we must test the spirits.
Do you see the first two parables as warnings and the next two of the mustard seed & leaven as changing the series to inspiration?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 19, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> The message was to the Jew of that time. It had meaning to them. Jesus never burdened them with things that would happen way later on. The message was, The Kingdom is at hand!
> 
> It did grow, from just one man and twelve followers. It also endured corruption early on, but I have yet to see where that was the message Christ was giving the Jew.
> 
> ...



Does this repentance mean to quit sinning or to change one's mine into believing one can't quit sinning and thus need Jesus?

It does appear a lot of the Bible isn't written to us yet many are quick to use it as it still applies directly to us in every verse. On this I agree.

Do you see the first two parables as a warning to the Jews and the next two of the mustard seed & leaven as changing the series to inspiration?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 19, 2014)

The mustard seed stands for the progress of the church from small beginnings. 

In this parable, the small seed is the church, which appeared as the firstfruits of the Word. Just as in the Parable of the Sower, the one who sows the mustard seed is the Son of Man, Jesus Christ, and the field is the world. Jesus Himself had an insignificant entrance into the world by human standards, and the church He founded is likewise a "little flock" (Luke 12:31-32), small and designed by God not to become a physically powerful organization that would make a spectacle of itself.

In Matthew 7:13-14, Christ says the way that leads to eternal life is difficult and narrow, and few find it. He reiterates in Matthew 20:16 that few are chosen.

In the parable, Jesus predicts the birds of the air would lodge in the branches. These "birds," demons led by "the prince of the power of the air" (Ephesians 2:2), have continually tried to infiltrate the church. Upon the unsuspecting early church, Satan moved quickly to implant his agents in it to teach false doctrine while appearing to be true Christians. Just as God permitted Satan to tempt Job intensely (Job 1:12; 2:6) and to sift Peter as wheat (Luke 22:31), He has allowed antichrists to lodge within His church (I Corinthians 11:18-19).

The largest of mustard plants, even under ideal conditions, can grow only to a height of about 15 feet. Luke 13:19 describes it as "a large tree," yet the natural mustard plant is not "a large tree" by any stretch of the imagination. All varieties of the mustard family, which are herbs, have thin, pulpy—not woody—stems and branches. It is nothing like a tree.

This mustard plant did something abnormal by growing beyond its design parameters; it became larger than what God designed as normal. What is this large mustard tree in which, apparently, demons are welcome? As the church grew from a tiny seed into a small mustard bush, it was as God designed it, but over time, it mutated into a large tree, something never intended by God.

This plant ceased to be God's church when it perverted its doctrines and objectives, moving beyond God's intended limits. It became a counterfeit of the true church, appropriating the name "Christian" and blending or syncretizing pagan mystery religions with Christianity. Eventually, it called itself the Roman Catholic Church, and later produced Protestant daughter churches whose doctrines are rooted in Catholicism.

What became of the true church? When the mustard plant mutated from its original form, God replanted His true church in another corner of the field, beginning the process anew. It is a consistent characteristic of God's true church to remain as a small herb, spiritually feeding the few who are chosen to become regenerated children of the Kingdom of God.

http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -/k/1115/Parable-Mustard-Seed.htm


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 19, 2014)

From the link above:
What became of the true church? When the mustard plant mutated from its original form, God replanted His true church in another corner of the field, beginning the process anew. It is a consistent characteristic of God's true church to remain as a small herb, spiritually feeding the few who are chosen to become regenerated children of the Kingdom of God.

Is this Biblical? Is it this Church: 
Church of the Great God
PO Box 471846
Charlotte, NC  28247-1846


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## hobbs27 (Jul 19, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Does this repentance mean to quit sinning or to change one's mine into believing one can't quit sinning and thus need Jesus?



 Could it be they had to do the same thing we are speaking of here? They had to change their minds about faith, put their trust in The Lord and not in the Pharisee or Saducee? The scripture & prophecy of the Messiah was there for them yet they were in conflicts with one that had come to create a whole new kingdom and not save the old as they were taught. The Pharisee fought against Him in their teaching, trying to convince the people that Christ was not the messiah, they were looking for a literal interpretation of the prophecy--- even so His disciples were sometimes confused because they too looked for literal interpretations of the prophecy. Case in point, the coming of Elijah. They looked for the literal return of Elijah, but instead the prophecy was fulfilled through John the Baptist...many times they were confused because they were thinking simplistic and literal and not spiritual.

 Christ even went on to prophesy the end of the old covenant, this was only pessimistic to the high priests, and very optimistic to the people that suffered under the law

I could go on and on with this but I will have to return later as I'm preparing a party here at home for my grandsons #1 birthday. I look forward to where this has gone later this eve.


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## gordon 2 (Jul 19, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> The mustard seed stands for the progress of the church from small beginnings.
> 
> In this parable, the small seed is the church, which appeared as the firstfruits of the Word. Just as in the Parable of the Sower, the one who sows the mustard seed is the Son of Man, Jesus Christ, and the field is the world. Jesus Himself had an insignificant entrance into the world by human standards, and the church He founded is likewise a "little flock" (Luke 12:31-32), small and designed by God not to become a physically powerful organization that would make a spectacle of itself.
> 
> ...



In my heart, to my understanding this does not square up with the big picture or the "all in all." Quote: "God replanted His true church in another corner of the field",.. End Quote

I find your view of Christian history interesting, however I think that there is a little more to it than this. There are good scholarly books on the History of Christianity from people of many different denominations. Also some purely academic accounts exist. Many people today, especially due to the internet, have views on the history that I find quite troubling for all of Christianity especially when the views are a rehash of heretical views studied and understood by our communities sometimes thousands of yrs ago.  It's like fashionable to espouse a herecy and in defense of it call it seeking the face of God. Some people in our past ( past generations) were more stupid than we are now, but some were smarter also...

I know of no religious tradition that did not borrow from the rites and ceremonies of the people it converted. Moses was a Egyptian. Peter was a Jew. Paul was a pagan ( Roman).

 I somehow don't think that the "pure church" ever existed from the get go, since it is managed by people with different focus,  of many cultures, --who don't kneed their breads the same way--, and with the help and the Holy Spirit and and sometimes not. However the the purity of the Kingdom might be the simple fact of the Cross in our hearts.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 19, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> The message was to the Jew of that time. It had meaning to them. Jesus never burdened them with things that would happen way later on. The message was, The Kingdom is at hand!
> 
> It did grow, from just one man and twelve followers. It also endured corruption early on, but I have yet to see where that was the message Christ was giving the Jew.
> 
> ...



I hope all have a wonderful time at your grandchild's party.
Maybe later you and others can answer my question on were the first two parables warnings and the last two of the mustard seed & leaven/yeast inspirational? Did the series of parables switch from a warning to an inspiration?

I would like your view on why leaven is always viewed as bad especially to the Jews but not in this verse as compared to the others. Why would Jesus use an analogy containing leaven as being good when to the Jews, it was always bad?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 19, 2014)

Maybe before the internet or even television we had less spirits to test. We lived in an isolated community and only had the denomination of the local village.
With new knowledge that came with newspapers, television, travel, and now the internet, we have more spirits to test, some good & some bad. It's not all bad and can be great tools for learning. As with everything we might learn more of the true light as well as more avenues of darkness existing. The true light & darkness have always existed.
It's a great time for one to explore his faith and beliefs.


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## Israel (Jul 19, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> In my heart, to my understanding this does not square up with the big picture or the "all in all." Quote: "God replanted His true church in another corner of the field",.. End Quote
> 
> I find your view of Christian history interesting, however I think that there is a little more to it than this. There are good scholarly books on the History of Christianity from people of many different denominations. Also some purely academic accounts exist. Many people today, especially due to the internet, have views on the history that I find quite troubling for all of Christianity especially when the views are a rehash of heretical views studied and understood by our communities sometimes thousands of yrs ago.  It's like fashionable to espouse a herecy and in defense of it call it seeking the face of God. Some people in our past ( past generations) were more stupid than we are now, but some were smarter also...
> 
> ...


Could it be you are confusing Paul's claim of Roman citizenship with his tradition and history?
But I won't argue against Paul's seeing he had as much to abandon in his apprehending as even the most "distant" polytheist.


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## gordon 2 (Jul 19, 2014)

Israel said:


> Could it be you are confusing Paul's claim of Roman citizenship with his tradition and history?
> But I won't argue against Paul's seeing he had as much to abandon in his apprehending as even the most "distant" polytheist.



I know his tradition and history and I know of his claim to Roman citizenship. He's the one who argued with Peter regards the the ritual needs of the gentile converts. He cut to the quick of it.


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## Israel (Jul 20, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> I know his tradition and history and I know of his claim to Roman citizenship. He's the one who argued with Peter regards the the ritual needs of the gentile converts. He cut to the quick of it.


I knew I had to be misunderstanding somewhere, I see I didn't grasp the context rightly. Thanks brother.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 20, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I would like your view on why leaven is always viewed as bad especially to the Jews but not in this verse as compared to the others. Why would Jesus use an analogy containing leaven as being good when to the Jews, it was always bad?



It's not always bad. God commanded the use of leaven in the peace offering and wave offering. Lev.7:13 Lev 23:17.

 In the parable of the leaven Jesus uses the leaven as an example of the Kingdoms growth, not of corruption. Even though leaven represents evil most of the time in the OT, this is not the meaning here. To say the parable is negative , is reading way too much into symbolism. Leaven being represented as evil---when mixed with dough which represents the bread of life becomes one and expands! 

 That is like the Kingdom of heaven, when our evil flesh is introduced to the bread of life (Christ) we become one and others seeing this change desire to be changed themselves, and the kingdom grows like leavened bread.

 There are many Christians today that have a pessimistic view of the future, they look for negativity in the scriptures and are always looking for a sign to scare people into believing before the end comes and all hope is gone. These people go by the term dispensationalist.

 The parable of the wheat and tares has come to fruition.


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## Israel (Jul 20, 2014)

I like Matzoh and Captain John Dursts.
I can't afford to be picky.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 20, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> It's not always bad. God commanded the use of leaven in the peace offering and wave offering. Lev.7:13 Lev 23:17.
> 
> The parable of the wheat and tares has come to fruition.



Possibly so as it was to the Jews, so you see the first two parables as warnings and the last two as inspiration to the Jews?
No symbolism of a tree, branches, birds, shade, etc, just an analogy of sorts?
Seeds planting some growing, others dying. Sometimes weeds appearing with the good crop. A mustard seed being small but growing into a tree forming branches where birds live in it's shade. A lump of old dough mixed in with the new dough makes the bread with the old dough characteristics.

Again, you see a change in the series of parables in the last two from the first two? What did this change mean to the Jews? Was any of this prophetic or contain any symbols?

Galatians 5:9 
This false teaching is like a little yeast that spreads through the whole batch of dough!

1 Corinthians 5:7
Get rid of the old "yeast" by removing this wicked person from among you. Then you will be like a fresh batch of dough made without yeast, which is what you really are. Christ, our Passover Lamb, has been sacrificed for us.

(You must be without leaven to be reborn. Jesus removed our leaven.)
(leaven and unleavened bread is very symbolical to the Jews.)


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 20, 2014)

It's possible that all of the parables in this series have come to fruition but just like any good history lesson, we can learn from events of the past. We can learn from what Paul taught to the churches. We can learn from Jesus.
One lesson to learn is the Church will continue to be troubled by leaveners. We can plant the seeds of the Gospel, some will mature and others will wither. We will see tares/false-christians in our Churches and communities. We will just let them be for now and let God take care of them later. We might even learn that the Church started small and perhaps has received too many branches. Branches used to shade Satan & false-christians.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 20, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> It's not always bad. God commanded the use of leaven in the peace offering and wave offering. Lev.7:13 Lev 23:17.



     It is interesting to note, however, that for a peace offering (Lev 7:13) and wave offering (Lev 23:17) God commanded that leaven be used.

      Jesus gave us the first 4 symbolic examples of leaven in the New Testament. In the first, Jesus compares the Kingdom of Heaven/God to leaven (Mt 13:33)(Lk 13:20-21). There is great debate amongst scholars as to whether the use of leaven in this example is positive or negative. Some believe that it is positively speaking of the "rise" or growth of the gospel in the world or a person's life. Others believe that it is negatively speaking of evil doctrine working its way into the kingdom.

     In the second instance, Jesus compared the false teaching (sin) of the Pharisees and Sadducees with leaven (Mt 16:6-12).

     In the third, Jesus warned of the leaven of Herod (he was evil and immoral: Mt 4:1-12, Mk 6:14-29, Lk 3:18-21, Lk 23:7-12) and again the Pharisees (Mk 8:15).

     In the fourth, Jesus said, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees which is hypocrisy" (sin) (Lk 12:1).

http://jesusalive.cc/ques171.htm

The leavened bread used in Leviticus 7:13 was for a peace offering. This
is a perfect representation that even in our thankfulness toward God there is still impurity, for nothing leavened could be brought to the altar. Leaven represented false doctrines such as leaven of the Scribes and Pharisees.
In Leviticus 23:17 where God said that the two wave loaves on the day of Pentecost were to contain yeast. The two wave loaves symbolized the two people groups that would make up the Church (Jew and Gentile) and each
individual in those two groups have a sin nature within them (Rom.7:14-25) that is symbolized by the yeast.

Jesus never said that the kingdom of heaven was like leaven. What He said was that the Kingdom of Heaven was like leaven that was hid in three measures of a meal. The Kingdom of Heaven is like dough that has been permeated by a corrupting agent like yeast.

http://www.christianarsenal.com/Chr...sons_files/Parables 05 The Yeast (Leaven).pdf


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## hobbs27 (Jul 20, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Possibly so as it was to the Jews, so you see the first two parables as warnings and the last two as inspiration to the Jews?
> No symbolism of a tree, branches, birds, shade, etc, just an analogy of sorts?
> Seeds planting some growing, others dying. Sometimes weeds appearing with the good crop. A mustard seed being small but growing into a tree forming branches where birds live in it's shade. A lump of old dough mixed in with the new dough makes the bread with the old dough characteristics.
> 
> ...




I see them all as inspiration. All were prophetic too, and all have come to fruition. That's not to say they have ended, but the Kingdom has come and is here, and has grown from one man and twelve followers to billions now and through the decades.
 Alfred Nevin wrote in his book (Parables of Jesus)
 Napoleon, in St. Helena, with the solemn ocean round him and the silent sky above, the fierce passions which had so long raged in his heart growing still as the volcanic fires which once tore the heart of his lonely isle, said to Count de Montholon:
 " I know men, and I tell you that Jesus Christ is not a man! The religion of Christ is a mystery which subsists by its own force and proceeds from a mind which is not a human mind. We find in it a marked individuality which originated a train of words and actions unknown before. Jesus is not a philosopher, for his proofs are miracles, and from the first his disciples adored him. Alexander, Caeser, Charlemagne and myself founded empires, but on what foundation did we rest the creations of our genius ? Upon force. Jesus Christ founded an empire upon love, and at this hour millions of men would die for him. I die before my time, and my body will be given back to the earth to become food for worms. Such is the fate of him who has been called the Great Napolean. What an abyss between my deep mystery and the eternal kingdom of Christ, which is proclaimed, loved and adored, and is extending over the whole earth!"

 Friends , Napolean got it! 

 Why can't their be corruption in the kingdom? Because corruption does not inherit the kingdom! 
 The gospel is 100% inspiration but  it's also condemning to those that do not enter and choose not eternal life.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 20, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I see them all as inspiration. All were prophetic too, and all have come to fruition. That's not to say they have ended, but the Kingdom has come and is here, and has grown from one man and twelve followers to billions now and through the decades.
> 
> Why can't their be corruption in the kingdom? Because corruption does not inherit the kingdom!
> The gospel is 100% inspiration but  it's also condemning to those that do not enter and choose not eternal life.



But when these parables were written there was corruption in the kingdom. I'm not arguing about the timeline of the Kingdom, just the meaning of the parables. At some point in time good seeds were planted, some grew and some withered, some weeds were planted with the wheat. The weeds were left until harvest as to not destroy the roots of the wheat. Do we both agree that these two parables explain some corruption in the Kingdom at some previous time?
His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear” (Matt. 13:36-43).

Whether the Kingdom has come on Earth or not doesn't change the meaning of this series of parables. Now the first two might be different from the last two but their meaning is the same today as when written, Kingdom come or not. The first two might be viewed as warnings. Warnings can be positive. The whole Bible is positive even though it contains warnings.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 20, 2014)

Leviticus 23:17
You shall bring from your dwellings two wave loaves of two-tenths of an ephah. They shall be of fine flour; they shall be baked with leaven. They are the first fruits to the lord.

This verse takes us to the heart of our section and subject: the wave loaves.

First of all, let us note that the loaves were 'of fine flour' and 'with leaven'. Both ingredients have a clear meaning in God's word, but their respective significance could hardly be further removed from each other: one speaking of Christ, His purity, the perfect Man, the One who pleased God at all times and showed perfect evenness, whether under pressure or not; the other speaking of evil in each and every occurrence in the Old Testament as well as in the New. One might well ask how anyone aware of the symbolism of these two substances could possibly combine them in one, and then think of presenting them to the Lord as an offering. Yet this is exactly what God demands here.

A first step towards solving this riddle can be taken by observing that the loaves had to be 'baked' with leaven. The well-known corrupting influence of leaven ceases as soon as the lump is exposed to the heat of fire. Is this not a well-suited type of what the church is? It is composed of (all) believers - men, women and children who, on the one hand, have received a new nature (partakers of divine nature). This new nature enables them to show features of Christ in their life: fine flour. On the other hand, they still have the old nature, the flesh. However, they must not allow the flesh to be active in them; they must not be carnal.

http://www.biblecentre.org/truthtestimony/2001/mh_shadows_1_loaves.htm


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## hobbs27 (Jul 20, 2014)

Art, can you point to where you see corruption inside the kingdom from any of these parables?

 I see the Kingdom being seperate from the corruption of the world. & the Gospel went out to the entire world, only those that heard it and received it inherit the kingdom.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 20, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Art, can you point to where you see corruption inside the kingdom from any of these parables?
> 
> I see the Kingdom being seperate from the corruption of the world. & the Gospel went out to the entire world, only those that heard it and received it inherit the kingdom.



The world is God's Kingdom.
The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. Who was the sower in the parable? The wheat represents the people of God. The tares represent corruption among the people of God. 
The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom

Look at all the parables that start with "The Kingdom of Heaven is like"
It shows that God's Kingdom seeds have been sown. There is a present Kingdom and a future Kingdom that corruption can't enter. The seeds planted by the sower grow slowly. The wheat is still corrupted by weeds for now. 

Luke 17:20-21
One day the Pharisees asked Jesus, "When will the Kingdom of God come?" Jesus replied, "The Kingdom of God can't be detected by visible signs.
21 You won't be able to say, 'Here it is!' or 'It's over there!' For the Kingdom of God is already among you."

The Kingdom of God is present today but in a different way than the Kingdom we will inherit when we die a physical death.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 20, 2014)

Ok, guess we just disagree on the world being the Kingdom, I understand the field to be the world, and the church being a conglomeration of those that live under God's rule ie saved folks.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 20, 2014)

Scripture interprets scripture, praise be to God.


36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”

37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!


Who were the tares? Jesus answers here:

Matthew 23 King James Version (KJV)

23 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,

7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater darn -ation.

15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of he11 than yourselves.

16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.

19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.

21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.

22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the condem nation of he11
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 20, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Ok, guess we just disagree on the world being the Kingdom, I understand the field to be the world, and the church being a conglomeration of those that live under God's rule ie saved folks.



Yeah, I've enjoyed the discussion but it's making me weary.
Maybe others will add views perhaps completely different from ours. 
You keep me on my toes testing spirits, discussing the Kingdom, etc. We do both agree to look beyond denominations. With these tares existing or having existed in the world or Church, I'll have to revisit if Satan was defeated at the cross. Every belief causes a look at many verses, some do appear to go against others. 
Is the Church growing or diminishing? Is the world getting more evil or better? Do the denominations contain false-Christians? How so if Satan was defeated on the cross? Was the Church suppose to stay small to accept the "few" who are called? Is it now too big? Will more knowledge be revealed in the future than in the past? 
Most of all, will future generations realize that the death of Jesus saved them from eternal death because they can't quit sinning and save themselves? I'm not sure this generation has realized this.


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## Dominic (Jul 21, 2014)

In Matthew 13 doesn't Christ not only give these parables but he also explains them to his Apostles, and He tells the purpose of the parables?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 21, 2014)

Dominic said:


> In Matthew 13 doesn't Christ not only give these parables but he also explains them to his Apostles, and He tells the purpose of the parables?



The first two are explained as to their meaning, the last two of the series aren't explained.


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## Day trip (Jul 21, 2014)

"What is too sublime for you, seek not, into things beyond your strength search not. What is committed to you attend to, for what is hidden is not your concern.  With what is too much for you meddle not when shown things beyond human understanding.  Their own opinion has mislead many and false reasoning unbalanced their judgement.  When the pupil of the eye is missing, their is no light, and when their is no knowledge, their is no wisdom."  Sirach 3:20-24

All I know is what I have lived and experienced.  Sometimes the hardest thing to do is to walk away from something you have tried so hard to understand.  I don't know if the church is growing or diminishing.  I don't know if the world is getting better or more evil.  What I do know is that in the equation of life, everything outside of me is the constant and I am the only variable.  I can control me only and then only sometimes.  The more I know me, the more I begin to understand you.  The more I understand what I have experienced, the more I understand what you have experienced.  The more I understand how I feel and think, the more I understand how you feel and think.  
The one thing that I can be certain about is that Christ lived and died as an example of how we are to live and if need be, to die.  Our sins are not abolished simply because Christ died but they are abolished when we take up our cross and live as He did.  Learn to think and act as He did.  That is the salvation.  Trying to complicate it and establish rules is simply our looking for an easy way out.  Leaven bread this and leaven bread that and mustard seeds,  all this is just complicating the Word.  If you can't look at a chapter or a verse and see the meaning, as clear as a bell in your soul then just keep going.  One day, if you are meant to get anything from it, it will come to you.  It will come so clear that you will not think it worthy of even discussing, it simply Is, it makes sense.  Our minds must be like children's, not like wise men.  I read through this forum like looking into a crystal clear steam, then with all the discussion, the water is so muddy I can't see anything and as I walk away from it, the water settles and once again all is clear.


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## gemcgrew (Jul 21, 2014)

Day trip said:


> "What is too sublime for you, seek not, into things beyond your strength search not. What is committed to you attend to, for what is hidden is not your concern.  With what is too much for you meddle not when shown things beyond human understanding.  Their own opinion has mislead many and false reasoning unbalanced their judgement.  When the pupil of the eye is missing, their is no light, and when their is no knowledge, their is no wisdom."  Sirach 3:20-24
> 
> All I know is what I have lived and experienced.  Sometimes the hardest thing to do is to walk away from something you have tried so hard to understand.  I don't know if the church is growing or diminishing.  I don't know if the world is getting better or more evil.  What I do know is that in the equation of life, everything outside of me is the constant and I am the only variable.  I can control me only and then only sometimes.  The more I know me, the more I begin to understand you.  The more I understand what I have experienced, the more I understand what you have experienced.  The more I understand how I feel and think, the more I understand how you feel and think.
> The one thing that I can be certain about is that Christ lived and died as an example of how we are to live and if need be, to die.  Our sins are not abolished simply because Christ died but they are abolished when we take up our cross and live as He did.  Learn to think and act as He did.  That is the salvation.  Trying to complicate it and establish rules is simply our looking for an easy way out.  Leaven bread this and leaven bread that and mustard seeds,  all this is just complicating the Word.  If you can't look at a chapter or a verse and see the meaning, as clear as a bell in your soul then just keep going.  One day, if you are meant to get anything from it, it will come to you.  It will come so clear that you will not think it worthy of even discussing, it simply Is, it makes sense.  Our minds must be like children's, not like wise men.  I read through this forum like looking into a crystal clear steam, then with all the discussion, the water is so muddy I can't see anything and as I walk away from it, the water settles and once again all is clear.


Self-centered.


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## Day trip (Jul 21, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Self-centered.



The "I" is not me personally, the "I" is every man.  This is an attempt to create some understanding, even in our lack of understanding.  Your lack of understanding assumes a self centered nature which as my original comment states, you know me through your knowledge of yourself.


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## Israel (Jul 22, 2014)

On another thread the matter came up of "thinking objectively"...which, now, I see really means no less than to think "as" God. To "think" above all personal experience and prejudice, to think above the limits we see in any situation.
Perhaps that is what catches the "I"?

For even should the "I" take into account "I know I can't think in terms of advanced calculus" congratulating itself in what it knows it does not know...what of all the "unknown"...unknowns?
In God they all be.

Ahh, then, the wisdom of God through Christ...to bring us through death to the mind that is, not thinking "hard"...but just is, and knowing all.
It is enough, always.

No man is ever quite able to get another past Descarte, but he who became like us in all ways, and mercifully included us in his own death. 
And resurrection.
Then perhaps one may hear, as another has spoken, "I am what I am by the grace of God".
And then even...extend that to all?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 22, 2014)

Whom  were the four parables in this series delivered to? Whom did Jesus offer an explanation of the first two parables? Why wasn't an explanation offered for the last two parables in the series?


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## gemcgrew (Jul 22, 2014)

Day trip said:


> The "I" is not me personally, the "I" is every man.  This is an attempt to create some understanding, even in our lack of understanding.  Your lack of understanding assumes a self centered nature which as my original comment states, you know me through your knowledge of yourself.


And that may very well have been true if God had not made me to differ, had Christ not abolished my sins.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 22, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Whom  were the four parables in this series delivered to? Whom did Jesus offer an explanation of the first two parables? Why wasn't an explanation offered for the last two parables in the series?



I've been revisiting these. Of course Jesus gave these parables to His disciples and the Jew. His entire earthly ministry was to the lost sheep of Israel. It was concerning the coming kingdom. I still believe that corruption can not inherit the kingdom, but I'm also looking into the great apostasy foretold. This could explain where we are splitting hairs on the subject.

 The first century church was pure up to the great apostasy, history shows us Paul struggled keeping the churches inline and the Gospel pure. After the apostles were martyred there is no more God Spoken scriptures and the church had many imposters trying to adapt the teachings of Christ to better fit their culture. The same thing happens today, but the Gospel is stronger now than it was then, through reformation, and years of people studying the text for the truth. I don't believe another false Gospel has a chance to succeed as some have in the past, and I believe some of those false doctrines that are still going on today are dying out due to the information age . I also believe the church is poised and ready for another reformation to correct itself even more.


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## gemcgrew (Jul 22, 2014)

Hobbs, the Gospel is unchanging. How can it be stronger today?


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## hobbs27 (Jul 22, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Hobbs, the Gospel is unchanging. How can it be stronger today?



I agree...what I should have said is doctrine.


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## centerpin fan (Jul 22, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> The first century church was pure up to the great apostasy ...



Which was when?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 22, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I've been revisiting these. Of course Jesus gave these parables to His disciples and the Jew. His entire earthly ministry was to the lost sheep of Israel. It was concerning the coming kingdom. I still believe that corruption can not inherit the kingdom, but I'm also looking into the great apostasy foretold. This could explain where we are splitting hairs on the subject.



Do you see other parables describing Israel such as this one:

"Then Jesus used this illustration: 'A man planted a fig tree in his garden and came again and again to see if there was any fruit on it, but he was always disappointed. Finally, he said to his gardener, "I've waited three years, and there hasn't been a single fig! Cut it down. It's taking up space we can use for something else." The gardener answered, "Give it one more chance. Leave it another year, and I'll give it special attention and plenty of fertilizer. If we get figs next year, fine. If not, you can cut it down."'" (Luke 13:6-9, NLT).


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## Israel (Jul 22, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Do you see other parables describing Israel such as this one:
> 
> "Then Jesus used this illustration: 'A man planted a fig tree in his garden and came again and again to see if there was any fruit on it, but he was always disappointed. Finally, he said to his gardener, "I've waited three years, and there hasn't been a single fig! Cut it down. It's taking up space we can use for something else." The gardener answered, "Give it one more chance. Leave it another year, and I'll give it special attention and plenty of fertilizer. If we get figs next year, fine. If not, you can cut it down."'" (Luke 13:6-9, NLT).



parables are useless.

unless taken personally.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 22, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Do you see other parables describing Israel such as this one:
> 
> "Then Jesus used this illustration: 'A man planted a fig tree in his garden and came again and again to see if there was any fruit on it, but he was always disappointed. Finally, he said to his gardener, "I've waited three years, and there hasn't been a single fig! Cut it down. It's taking up space we can use for something else." The gardener answered, "Give it one more chance. Leave it another year, and I'll give it special attention and plenty of fertilizer. If we get figs next year, fine. If not, you can cut it down."'" (Luke 13:6-9, NLT).



Yes. I do. I see Jesus teaching the lost sheep of Israel of the coming kingdom, just as He said, He came ( only) for the lost sheep of Israel, that was the misguided Jew.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 22, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Yes. I do. I see Jesus teaching the lost sheep of Israel of the coming kingdom, just as He said, He came ( only) for the lost sheep of Israel, that was the misguided Jew.



What fruit was Jesus requiring Israel to bear? They were already descendants of Abraham. What repentance was Jesus after? Bear in mind the two questions Jesus asked below:

 Jesus taught the parable of the barren fig tree in the context of people coming to Him with a report about two recent disasters in Jerusalem. One was the massacre of some Galileans by Pilate in the temple. Question #1: Did these people suffer because they were worse sinners than other Galileans? The answer Jesus gave was negative. ‘Repent,’ He said to His listeners, ‘or you too will perish. The other incident was the collapse of a tower in Siloam which left eighteen people dead. Question #2: Were those eighteen persons who perished worse sinners than others who lived in Jerusalem? Again the answer was ‘no’. Once more, Jesus said, ‘Repent, or you too will perish.


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## gemcgrew (Jul 22, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Yes. I do. I see Jesus teaching the lost sheep of Israel of the coming kingdom, just as He said, He came ( only) for the lost sheep of Israel, that was the misguided Jew.


Did he not say to the "misguided Jew", "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you."?


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## hobbs27 (Jul 22, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Did he not say to the "misguided Jew", "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you."?



Was that not the unbelievers in the temple? Probably some of the more religious? That is a good chapter, just back up a few verses and we see that the gentile was on Christ' heart too, but He came to save the lost sheep...the misguided or misdirected  ..those that had faith in Him and not the Pharisee. Matthew 23 is a great example of what Jesus thought of the Pharisee, the scribes, and the high priests and certainly they were not of His sheep.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 22, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> What fruit was Jesus requiring Israel to bear? They were already descendants of Abraham. What repentance was Jesus after? Bear in mind the two questions Jesus asked below:
> 
> Jesus taught the parable of the barren fig tree in the context of people coming to Him with a report about two recent disasters in Jerusalem. One was the massacre of some Galileans by Pilate in the temple. Question #1: Did these people suffer because they were worse sinners than other Galileans? The answer Jesus gave was negative. ‘Repent,’ He said to His listeners, ‘or you too will perish. The other incident was the collapse of a tower in Siloam which left eighteen people dead. Question #2: Were those eighteen persons who perished worse sinners than others who lived in Jerusalem? Again the answer was ‘no’. Once more, Jesus said, ‘Repent, or you too will perish.




No Jew that converted to Christianity was reported to have been killed in the siege of Jerusalem, which took place in their generation. They converted and took heed to leave.
 The message was as John the Baptist stated...Repent for the Kingdom is at hand. The end is near! Not of the universe, but of the old world..old covenant.

They were to repent ( change thinking) from law to grace. The fruit they were to bear was Christ. IMO.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 22, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> No Jew that converted to Christianity was reported to have been killed in the siege of Jerusalem, which took place in their generation. They converted and took heed to leave.
> The message was as John the Baptist stated...Repent for the Kingdom is at hand. The end is near! Not of the universe, but of the old world..old covenant.
> 
> They were to repent ( change thinking) from law to grace. The fruit they were to bear was Christ. IMO.



I agree, sometimes people get confused as to what repentance means. Jesus' two questions make the answer clear.
Was Jesus able to give these repenter's salvation even as Old Covenant people? Jesus was asking people to repent and be placed under a covenant not yet in place. The transitional period I don't fully understand.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 22, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Did he not say to the "misguided Jew", "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you."?



Do you see the parables as prophetic?


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## gemcgrew (Jul 22, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Was that not the unbelievers in the temple? Probably some of the more religious? That is a good chapter, just back up a few verses and we see that the gentile was on Christ' heart too, but He came to save the lost sheep...the misguided or misdirected  ..those that had faith in Him and not the Pharisee. Matthew 23 is a great example of what Jesus thought of the Pharisee, the scribes, and the high priests and certainly they were not of His sheep.


I think we are in agreement for the most part. When you say "those that had faith in Him", are you referring to "saving faith"?


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## hobbs27 (Jul 22, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Jesus was asking people to repent and be placed under a covenant not yet in place. The transitional period I don't fully understand.







gemcgrew said:


> I think we are in agreement for the most part. When you say "those that had faith in Him", are you referring to "saving faith"?



Those people were saved from the wrath that came upon Jerusalem. The dead were the first to recieve salvation from the shed blood in hades, then those living could have it. 

 Remember Johns baptism was not good enough for eternal salvation it took baptism into Christ.


1Peter 4:6

For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.


Acts 19 

1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.


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## gemcgrew (Jul 22, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Do you see the parables as prophetic?


Art, it is hard to argue against Pink's view. However, I do not think it should cause a believer to fret, but to rejoice.


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## gemcgrew (Jul 22, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Remember Johns baptism was not good enough for eternal salvation it took baptism into Christ.


I disagree.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 22, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> Which was when?



At the time this was written, it was happening.

2 Thessalonians

2 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
 6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 22, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> I disagree.



I thought you might and thats ok. Some say baptism in Christ and think water, Im not sure if that's where you disagree but I just want to point this out in scripture, and Im sure many will disagree with the meaning of this but I think we would agree on this meaning:

"As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 22, 2014)

What is a Baptism for repentance? Is this the same repentance Jesus commanded people to do? How was it possible for Jesus to save someone before he died? I do understand he was do it through the power of his Father.
Jesus' earthly ministry was to the lost sheep of Israel. It was concerning the coming kingdom. Did Jesus ever forgive any Gentiles before he died? When Jesus told people he forgave them I guess that's the same as salvation.

Jesus did heal the Gentile woman's daughter after saying he only came for the Jews. After seeing how much faith the woman had he healed her daughter. Did this woman's faith grant her salvation?
I thought the Gentiles salvation was revealed in Acts after the resurrection. But Jesus gave the Apostles the command to preach the Gospel in all the world and to everyone without restriction. This was before his death during the time he came only for the lost sheep of Israel.


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## Israel (Jul 26, 2014)

Here the words "Yet again, once for all" denote the removal of the things which can be shaken--created things--in order that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.

It may, or may not be enough depending, that Jesus alone abides.
We may be finding out.
Who alone the abiding one is.
Is it enough?


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