# Sighting In Question



## Tideup (Aug 25, 2016)

I see some folks holding the forearm and some just letting the rifle rest on bags or other AIDS and just squeezing the trigger. I don't think it would make a difference as the round should be out of the muzzle before the recoil takes place..... Is this correct ?


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## RossVegas (Aug 25, 2016)

The reason for using the bags, and letting it rest on the bench, is to remove human error.


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## ryanh487 (Aug 25, 2016)

Use as solid of a rest as possible.  then you know if you miss it was human error instead of the scope being off.  even the best shooters in the world shoot more accurately with a solid rest.


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## wareagle700 (Aug 25, 2016)

A rest can help but relying on that alone will not give you best results. In fact, I get pretty poor results with hunting rifles in a rest compared to when I hold them. The rifle does start to recoil before the bullet exits the barrel so how you hold the rifle can definitely determine your group size. In lightweight rifles this is easier to see as they move more from recoil than heavier guns. Many times you will see shooters holding the forearms or putting a hand on top of their scope. This is to help tame the "jump" in light guns. 

The key is "consistency" however you do it. I get best results from the prone with a bipod and rear bag, laying straight back behind the rifle. With lightweight guns, I'll hold the forearm once I get in position.


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## spurrs and racks (Aug 26, 2016)

*In fact, I get pretty poor results ...*

you are different than every other person that I have shot with in 46 years.

I always "Zero" my hunting rifle in using bags and or vise.

After that, you know exactly what your weapon is doing.

s&r


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## rosewood (Aug 26, 2016)

wareagle700 said:


> A rest can help but relying on that alone will not give you best results. In fact, I get pretty poor results with hunting rifles in a rest compared to when I hold them. The rifle does start to recoil before the bullet exits the barrel so how you hold the rifle can definitely determine your group size. In lightweight rifles this is easier to see as they move more from recoil than heavier guns. Many times you will see shooters holding the forearms or putting a hand on top of their scope. This is to help tame the "jump" in light guns.
> 
> The key is "consistency" however you do it. I get best results from the prone with a bipod and rear bag, laying straight back behind the rifle. With lightweight guns, I'll hold the forearm once I get in position.



^this^


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## rosewood (Aug 26, 2016)

Recoil has a big effect on POI.  How you secure the rifle will affect the POI for sure.  For hunting, you should rest the firearm in a similar fashion to how you will in the field to be the most consistent.  

I didn't realize this so much until I started shooting single shot pistols, I.E. contender and encore.  NO doubt it has a big effect on them.  It can make 2" or more difference at 100 yards.  However, for general hunting, it is not as big of a deal unless you are doing long range hunting. 

Prime example with an encore 44mag in 12" barrel.  A hotter load will shoot lower at 50 yards than a lesser one.  The bullet is traveling faster therefore it exits the barrel before the barrel rises as much as it does on a slower load.  Had me scratching my head the first time I experienced this.  I would have thought a slower bullet would hit lower than a fast one.  A gun recoils before the bullet leaves the barrel, if the barrel starts rising before the bullet leaves, it will shoot higher.  If you tie the gun down and shoot, it is going to shoot lower than if you let it recoil freely.  It doesn't matter how you hold it as long as your hold it the same way every time.

One other thing, never put your hand directly on the barrel.  Always grip the forearm or on top of scope.  If you grab barrel you mess with the harmonics and your shooting may be all over the place because you will not hold it the same every time.

Rosewood


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## rosewood (Aug 26, 2016)

I shoot better off of sand bags than any other type rest.  Seems I can get the scope steadier off bags than a solid rest.  I do have a Caldwell lead sled, but only use it on heavy recoiling loads.  Just can't hold as steady on those things.


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## wareagle700 (Aug 26, 2016)

spurrs and racks said:


> you are different than every other person that I have shot with in 46 years.
> 
> I always "Zero" my hunting rifle in using bags and or vise.
> 
> ...



How am I different? I use a front and rear rest and hold on tight, doesn't sound that revolutionary. Many people I know do the same way.

In 3 lightweight hunting rifles I own, a 7mm-08, a .280 Remington, an a 6lb 7WSM, my groups all improved from holding the gun vs. relying on a rest or vice.


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## Rich Kaminski (Aug 26, 2016)

Hey Wareagle700, I'm with you. I stalk hunt as well as stand hunt and many of my shots are from the standing position. I use the sling to make a 3 point anchor (sling, forearm grip and shoulder flush) with the forearm grip push the gun backwards toward your sholder while keeping the sling wrapped tight around your elbow. I shoot a 300 win mag like this all the time. My other rifles (30-06, sks, 243, black powder) I do not even use the sling method. It is not necessary. All groups are almost dead center every time and I always make a heart shot - so there is no tracking involved. Now knowing physics - a vacuum is not created until the air is removed from the cylinder (the cylinder being the barrel). Are air that travels back down the barrel provides the noise blast and the recoil. Therefore, if your gun is zeroed in accurately and you do not hit exactly where you were aiming (and the projectile did not hit anything on its flight path between your rifle and target), then you flinched! End of story. That is based on science.


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## rosewood (Aug 26, 2016)

Rich Kaminski said:


> Now knowing physics - a vacuum is not created until the air is removed from the cylinder (the cylinder being the barrel). Are air that travels back down the barrel provides the noise blast and the recoil..



Not sure I understand what you are saying.  However, recoil has nothing to do with air traveling back down the barrel.  Recoil is a function of Newton's third of law motion, every action has an equal but opposite reaction.  The projectile (bullet and escaping gas) are going away from you and therefore push back on the gun with the same force.  Recoil is a function of the bullet velocity, bullet weight and powder weight on the exiting end and the weight of the gun and its velocity on the shooters end.

The report (blast) is a result of breaking the sound barrier as well as from the explosion of the burning powder.  I suppose the vacuum caused in the barrel may generate some noise, but minimal when compared to the explosion and breaking of the sound barrier.

Rosewood


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## ryanh487 (Aug 26, 2016)

I've found that one of the most stable ways to hold my rifle while the forend is resting on a bipod/bag/shooting rail is to take my off hand, palm down, and run it under the stock, and grab my trigger hand forearm.  Then slide my off hand up to my wrist, wedging my off hand forearm against the bottom of the grip on the stock.


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## wareagle700 (Aug 26, 2016)

I haven't ever looked into the actual physics of it, but based on what I have experienced, the rifle is definately moving some while the bullet is in the barrel. I understand by the time you feel the recoil the bullet has left the barrel and the vast majority of the recoil impulse does not affect the bullet's path. However, all it takes is a few thousandths of movement to throw a shot out of a group and lighter guns show this.


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## Tideup (Aug 27, 2016)

very interesting and thanks for all the feedback


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## jmoser (Sep 9, 2016)

ryanh487 said:


> I've found that one of the most stable ways to hold my rifle while the forend is resting on a bipod/bag/shooting rail is to take my off hand, palm down, and run it under the stock, and grab my trigger hand forearm.  Then slide my off hand up to my wrist, wedging my off hand forearm against the bottom of the grip on the stock.



Similar to this - I will use my off hand to snug the buttstock toward my shoulder and/or squeeze the rear bag to get the crosshairs centered.

I like a 'bunny ear' rear bag and standard sandbag up front.

Hand on the forend is not the best bench position.

Also make sure the front rest is under the forend or receiver; I see lots of folks resting the bbl [or mag tube with lever guns] directly on the bags up front.


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## rayjay (Sep 9, 2016)

You have to hang onto a hunting rifle as the trigger pull is too heavy to try to do any sort of free recoil. Your rest and hold should be stable enough that the crosshairs don't move as you squeeze the trigger. Some dry firing with your bench set up will  tell you if you are flinching or otherwise moving the rifle during the squeeze.

ETA - You also have to practice breathing control when hanging onto the rifle. When the crosshair is aligned on the bull let out half and breath and squeeze the trigger. You just have to accept the thud thud thud of the heart.


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## Oldstick (Sep 9, 2016)

One lesson I "re-learned" recently is to use actual sand in your sandbags as well.  Not cat litter or something else to save a little weight as I did some years ago based on an internet "tip".  At least not the brand I used, it did not pack down quite solidly enough making it hard to keep the cross hairs absolutely still during the entire trigger squeeze.  The cross hairs would be where I wanted, then was like a balancing act to keep it from moving while I put pressure on the trigger.

You get much better consistency and grouping with sand.  You get everything nestled where you want it with the bags packed down tight then all you have to do is press downward on the scope with your left hand to keep the reticles from moving while you gently squeeze off the trigger.


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## rayjay (Sep 9, 2016)

For benchrest competition they sell 'heavy sand' for use in the bags. It definitely helps.


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## Oldstick (Sep 9, 2016)

rayjay said:


> For benchrest competition they sell 'heavy sand' for use in the bags. It definitely helps.



I agree 100%.  This light bulb suddenly flashed in my head recently, after a long period of frustration trying to determine the accuracy potential of a couple hunting rifles I own.  Problem solved on both guns with replacing the filler on my Caldwell bag set along with also discovering that Varget is a very good powder for many applications.

As to the OP's question, for determining the accuracy and zeroing the sights, you want as steady and repeatable positioning of the rifle and sights as possible, with no human error introduced, as stated by others.

Then when you get it sighted exactly where you want, you can introduce the human element and practice, practice, practice using the exact same loads.  Hold it free  hand, against a tree, use the straps, doesn't matter.  If you already did the bench sighting properly, then any misses are now due to either human error or unexpected changes in the scope/sights.


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## Knotwild (Sep 10, 2016)

Consistency is the key, whether the gun is light or heavy and no matter what your rest is. 

I was shooting a custom rifle that Jarrett built go haywire one muggy summer afternoon. Groups size significantly increased. I asked Kenny what was wrong and he put some baby powder on both bags. The next group was back to normal for that rifle. 

Any gun is going to recoil and consistency is key to accuracy.


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## JohnK (Sep 17, 2016)

I guess I'll confess to not being much of a shot to start off with but since we have some knowledgeable people here I want to ask some things. 
Using a rest of different densities, like your hand vs. sand bags or even bags of packed hard vs with soft sand affects the point of impact? How about where you support the rifle vs. where you hold the forearm when hunting.
It seems that most every body but me shoots 1/2" groups so how much variable in the fore arm support can you get away with before the harmonics changes enough to move that group around a inch or two even if it is the same size?
I had a man tell me his bow used the same pin out to 35 yards. I didn't believe him till I saw his groups. Well with those size groups I guess he was about the same at 35 yards. (I didn't say anything, just agreed with him)
(edit) I guess rereading the above some of this stuff has been mentioned but I still want to know more. I'm sceptical that using a sandbag or shooting vise in 90 degree weather will leave a rifle shooting to the same point of aim in the middle of November, from an unsupported rest in 20 degree weather. I'm sure it's close enough to kill a deer at 70 yards but maybe not at 250.


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## Rich Kaminski (Sep 17, 2016)

Rosewood, I understand the equal and opposite theory. But it is only a theory. If you lean on or push at a wall, the wall is not exerting an equal and opposite force on you... The wall is secured and it will not move. So, you do not feel the recoil and the loud blast is not heard until the projectile leaves the barrel and the air is sucked back down the barrel.


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## Knotwild (Sep 17, 2016)

Rich Kaminski said:


> So, you do not feel the recoil and the loud blast is not heard until the projectile leaves the barrel and the air is sucked back down the barrel.



I didn't know air was "sucked back down the barrel". 

Consistency. If you shoot the same ammo you sighted in with, using the same type of hold on the stock, you will hit what you aim at. 

Now to simplify that; if you are inconsistent, you accuracy won't be very good.


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## rvick (Sep 18, 2016)

Interesting thread


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## Oldstick (Sep 18, 2016)

Regarding the forces involved, you are basically holding a controlled (hopefully) pipe bomb.  The instant the powder ignites, the burning gas expands very hard and very rapidly.  It is a closed system at first, equal force of pressure will be applied all around the cartridge chamber as well as to the base end and to bullet end.

All points in the cartridge case and chamber get pushed simultaneously by the tremendous expanding force.  The base and the bullet ends get moved the most by design, since they are the least "immovable" points.  The bullet gets slammed for a mile or two and the 200 lb gun holder end gets a nice wallop and maybe a little bruise.

The case gets expanded and needs resizing before reloading it.  Too much pressure can push the primer out of its pocket or much worse consequences from that point and up.

So, in my opinion it is probable that the recoil causing the typical muzzle rise does start to occur before the bullet has left the building but the total time for that is a tiny split second.  So consistency is key, like everyone stated.


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## cowhornedspike (Sep 18, 2016)

Rich Kaminski said:


> If you lean on or push at a wall, the wall is not exerting an equal and opposite force on you...



Yes it is.

First, your shoulder isn't a wall and, Second, If you push hard enough on a wall it will move...you just aren't pushing hard enough by simply leaning on it.


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## Oldstick (Sep 18, 2016)

cowhornedspike said:


> Yes it is.
> 
> First, your shoulder isn't a wall and, Second, If you push hard enough on a wall it will move...you just aren't pushing hard enough by simply leaning on it.



Yep, you beat me to it.  The wall is indeed exerting a force back.  It is pushing back and preventing me from falling on over from gravity.  So neither I nor the wall continue moving at that point.


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## GunnSmokeer (Sep 19, 2016)

"recoil" isn't the only thing that makes a gun barrel move in relation to the table and sandbags it was resting on.
Barrel whip or oscillation is a factor, too.
Rifle barrels will flex and have a wave motion going right through the steel as a gun is fired. Skinny barrels do it more than thick ones.  Longer barrels do it much more than short ones.  But it can be a factor. If the barrel is free-floated and the stock doesn't get any contact with the part of the barrel that is doing the whipping motion, that's nice, but the whipsaw motion of the barrel can still cause the bullet to exit the muzzle at a time when the muzzle isn't perfectly aligned with the target.


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## jmoser (Sep 29, 2016)

I keep a couple plastic Gatorade widemouth bottle caps in my range bag; use them under the feet of my bipod.  I can see the feet skid backwards under recoil on the bench even with moderate shoulder pressure on my .243 which is not a heavy recoiling rifle.  I don't like 'Lead Sled' rigs since they alter the recoil motion; you want consistent but controllable recoil events for zeroing in.


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