# I believe this is common to man...



## Israel (Jun 23, 2019)

Will we go there?

We have to go there.

Why do we have to go there?

Because _they_ went there and now have some superiority.

Yes, but if we go there, don't we in a way lose the "we" we are that we believe should not...not be?(conquered to annihilation) And by becoming what "we" we are not, and by adopting "their" method already then forfeit?  If we are to remain the we we are, we must submit to death (or being conquered) rather than to seek change of who we are to avoid it. Only then can we be consistent to the we we are.


Is this story true?


https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/la...ene-editing-scientist-he-jiankui-Frankenstein

It does not even have to have happened for me to know it is a true _thing_. And if it has happened, it was shown true long before it did.

True stories about man are happening all the time...but they only happen because they are true about man.

Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Give a man a fishing pole and teach him to fish and before long he will advertise fishing competitions.


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## ambush80 (Jun 24, 2019)

His intent was to make them immune to AIDS.  

I would volunteer for any number of new procedures if _they_ would let me.


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## 660griz (Jun 25, 2019)

Israel said:


> True stories about man are happening all the time...but they only happen because they are true about man.



That is right up there with, "Wherever you go, there you are."


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## WaltL1 (Jun 25, 2019)

660griz said:


> That is right up there with, "Wherever you go, there you are."


I like this one too -
"Here are the opinions on which my facts are based".


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## welderguy (Jun 25, 2019)

I like this one.
"He who farts in church sits in pew"


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## WaltL1 (Jun 25, 2019)

welderguy said:


> I like this one.
> "He who farts in church sits in pew"



That's pretty funny. Gross, but funny.


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## Israel (Jun 26, 2019)

Take this for example, a true thing that has been in the works from the beginning...is indeed happening (and has been) and will continue up to its appointed end. The fact that only some see it, only some have, and only some will does not at all diminish its veracity. It is not dependent upon the reception of any or all to make it true. But to those to whom it has been shown true they are learning to be thankful for the deliverance found _in truth._

The coming of the lawless one will be accompanied by the working of Satan, with every kind of power, sign, and false wonder, and with every wicked deception directed against those who are perishing, because they refused the love of the truth that would have saved them. For this reason, God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie, in order that judgment will come upon all who have disbelieved the truth and delighted in wickedness. 

It is the time that even the elect, if it were possible, would be deceived.

It is reiterated here:

And I saw three unclean spirits that looked like frogs coming out of the mouths of the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet. These are demonic spirits that perform signs and go out to all the kings of the earth, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God, the Almighty. 

Also found by that same spirit speaking here:

Yep. That was a good discussion. If it's true that _meat_ _bags_ crave some kind of transcendent experience then it's best that we provide it in a way that _isn't divisive to the point that we kill each other. _

Something seeking to provide a form of transcendent experience (perform signs, and as Paul puts it "false wonder") but with the declared intent of providing peace.

Foolish men who are more than willing to accept the declared intent of a thing without either waiting for intent to be revealed, that are without the discerning of true intent, must fall to it.

It is all toward manipulation as in:

This subforum IS called apologetics after all. Doesn't it bother you at all that you're not respecting the _intent of this forum_? 

Once intent is revealed however, it is impossible to return to that place not knowing...but only denial. It matters not at what may continue to declare intent, or how another should view its _declared intent_ to the end one should feel ashamed or burdened to accept its declaration of intent...intents made clear by practice are just that...made clear.

"obviously believe in men that lived to be hundreds of now thousands of years old, talking donkeys, talking snakes, invisible sky buddies and _zombie _reanimation"

"Yeah! I guess it is not hard to imagine the results you NEED when your entire belief system relies on the imagination of relationships, conversations, Izzycourse with a dead guy, flying _zombies_, AND an Invisible Sky Daddy " 

"Griz doesn't have an invisible sky buddy and does not believe in worshipping ascending _zombies_ and HE is the insane one"

“We are hopeless if zombies aren’t real.”

"I'm wondering if there's any utility to the belief that “We are hopeless if _zombies_ aren’t real.” Maybe if it were expressed in a different way."

There's a cleverness at work through deception to appear as though such is not set for this one thing, the denial of Jesus Christ as the ever living One.  But, it is. It may declare "its intent" to reasonable discussion and exchange, but ultimately it is set solely to the derision and corruption of the faith through what it declares its reasonable means. The simple are easily fooled, drawn in by bullying and intimidation to play by "its rules" or bear shame...all the while seeking only to heap shame to the noble name whereby some are called.

The bearer of that name is well able to bear derision as He has already clearly demonstrated to those who believe. And has even said Himself, of speaking of Himself:

And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

No, Jesus is not enraged at being derided, for he already knows to what esteem he is held in each heart. And such is forgiven. But He has entrusted the watching over that name, as He has entrusted _all to a faithful Father_ so that we also need not be troubled, but have confidence.

But now the working of that faithful Father to the raising of the Son to the receiving of a name above all, as indeed the ever living One as seer and knower of all hearts is being put to the test. Such is where faithless men must find themselves when they would in foolishness seek to try God to a "proving".

The Lord Jesus be glorified in all.


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## bullethead (Jun 26, 2019)

Israel said:


> Take this for example, a true thing that has been in the works from the beginning...is indeed happening (and has been) and will continue up to its appointed end. The fact that only some see it, only some have, and only some will does not at all diminish its veracity. It is not dependent upon the reception of any or all to make it true. But to those to whom it has been shown true they are learning to be thankful for the deliverance found _in truth._
> 
> The coming of the lawless one will be accompanied by the working of Satan, with every kind of power, sign, and false wonder, and with every wicked deception directed against those who are perishing, because they refused the love of the truth that would have saved them. For this reason, God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie, in order that judgment will come upon all who have disbelieved the truth and delighted in wickedness.
> 
> ...


Take this for example, you describing in detail what the "true thing" is, in detail on what makes it true and then backing it up with examples of facts that confirm your examples instead of just asserting a true thing and running with it.

Then we can go paragraph to paragraph and have you do the same..


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## ambush80 (Jun 26, 2019)

Israel said:


> Take this for example, a true thing that has been in the works from the beginning...is indeed happening (and has been) and will continue up to its appointed end. The fact that only some see it, only some have, and only some will does not at all diminish its veracity. It is not dependent upon the reception of any or all to make it true. But to those to whom it has been shown true they are learning to be thankful for the deliverance found _in truth._
> 
> The coming of the lawless one will be accompanied by the working of Satan, with every kind of power, sign, and false wonder, and with every wicked deception directed against those who are perishing, because they refused the love of the truth that would have saved them. For this reason, God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie, in order that judgment will come upon all who have disbelieved the truth and delighted in wickedness.
> 
> ...



You're right.  I would like to see religious beliefs reformed.  You see reform as a clever deception by the dragon with snakes or frogs or demons coming out of its mouth.  Why?  Because you think it's better that people keep believing that a man actually rose from the dead?  There's a "baby in that bathwater".  The supernatural stuff is the dirty water.  The belief that one has the ability to hear God's voice and actually escape death is a lever too powerful for people to handle.  It drives them to irrationality.

Keep the good parts and recognize the bad parts for the very human mistakes that they are.


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## ambush80 (Jun 26, 2019)

Israel said:


> It is all toward manipulation as in:
> 
> This subforum IS called apologetics after all. Doesn't it bother you at all that you're not respecting the _intent of this forum_?
> 
> ...



The discipline of Apologetics was invented by believers, religious men who wanted to show how their religion can comport with facts.  I want the same thing.  You call it a manipulation.


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