# Original sin and infant/child death



## atlashunter (Jul 26, 2011)

What happens to children and infants who die at a young age, say before they are mentally developed enough to understand and make a free will decision concerning God, Jesus, etc. Are they corrupted by original sin and hence go to he11? Or do they get a free pass to heaven since they never got to use their free will?


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## bullethead (Jul 26, 2011)

Free pass.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 26, 2011)

x2


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## atlashunter (Jul 26, 2011)

So if that is true what does it imply as it relates to original sin and free will?


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## bad0351 (Jul 26, 2011)

I'll be very interested to see how this plays out among the believers here.....


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## WTM45 (Jul 26, 2011)

Every authority I have read or studied under held to the premise of "individual accountability."

Born with it, yes, but not subject to it until one is made aware or is "enlightened" to their plight.


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## centerpin fan (Jul 26, 2011)

Free pass.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 26, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> So if that is true what does it imply as it relates to original sin and free will?



Jesus isn't the ONLY way around original sin.


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## atlashunter (Jul 26, 2011)

WTM45 said:


> Every authority I have read or studied under held to the premise of "individual accountability."
> 
> Born with it, yes, but not subject to it until one is made aware or is "enlightened" to their plight.



So if I'm understanding right that means born a sinner but not condemned for it?

I've been told here before that no one is innocent, not even children. I assumed the basis for that was the idea of original sin.

If they get a free pass to heaven and there is no dissent in heaven then they never got to use their free will either here or in the after life. And aren't we told God wants us to have free will? Isn't that the justification for this whole exercise and isn't that the reason given for evil in the world? God doesn't make anyone go to heaven because they are supposed to choose?


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## WTM45 (Jul 26, 2011)

The same lophole is extended to those who are mentally incapable of understanding right from wrong as well.

Yep.  A feel good work-around.

I have even been told their place in Heaven is "preferred seating" but their rewards are fewer (crowns, jewels, etc....).
They will have less to offer to lay at the feet of their Lord.


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## bullethead (Jul 26, 2011)

Mentally incapable handicapped, birth deformities..... are they examples of intelligent design?


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## River Rambler (Jul 26, 2011)

The closest thing to heaven is a child.

Spiritually formed, wordly unformed.
A child goes directly to heaven from all accounts of my understanding.


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## atlashunter (Jul 26, 2011)

WTM45 said:


> The same lophole is extended to those who are mentally incapable of understanding right from wrong as well.
> 
> Yep.  A feel good work-around.
> 
> ...



If the free pass folks have it right I guess that means that every abortion and every child murder adds another to the number in heaven. Maybe that is what Andrea Yates thought she was doing, eliminating the risk that her children might make the wrong choice and wind up in eternal torment.

But the free will problem remains unaddressed. It would mean most people in heaven had no part in getting there while those who made it to the age of free will but died at an inopportune time or didn't have sufficient knowledge to make an informed choice suffer forever while others got there without having to pass any test at all and without having made any choice.


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## River Rambler (Jul 26, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> If the free pass folks have it right I guess that means that every abortion and every child murder adds another to the number in heaven. Maybe that is what Andrea Yates thought she was doing, eliminating the risk that her children might make the wrong choice and wind up in eternal torment.
> 
> But the free will problem remains unaddressed. It would mean most people in heaven had no part in getting there while those who made it to the age of free will but died at an inopportune time or didn't have sufficient knowledge to make an informed choice suffer forever while others got there without having to pass any test at all and without having made any choice.



That's illogical validation. No one can ensure heaven except the Creator. If the Lord believes us worthy enough for free will, no one should supersede that designation by stealing it from them.

Who cares how others made it to Heaven, it's not for our reasoning and the Word says so.


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## bullethead (Jul 26, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> If the free pass folks have it right I guess that means that every abortion and every child murder adds another to the number in heaven. Maybe that is what Andrea Yates thought she was doing, eliminating the risk that her children might make the wrong choice and wind up in eternal torment.
> 
> But the free will problem remains unaddressed. It would mean most people in heaven had no part in getting there while those who made it to the age of free will but died at an inopportune time or didn't have sufficient knowledge to make an informed choice suffer forever while others got there without having to pass any test at all and without having made any choice.



God would know what path they would have chosen so he can admit them into heaven or not. We are told we have free will but in the next sentence are told God knows everything that will ever happen. Before we are born he knows who is in and who is out. We are just here to carry out the motions for ourselves.


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## atlashunter (Jul 26, 2011)

bullethead said:


> God would know what path they would have chosen so he can admit them into heaven or not. We are told we have free will but in the next sentence are told God knows everything that will ever happen. Before we are born he knows who is in and who is out. We are just here to carry out the motions for ourselves.



I asked about that once. Why bother with this whole game and just create only the ones that you already know will choose what you want them to and don't bother creating the ones that you know you are going to torture in the basement forever?

So the question in response to what you've said then becomes, are all abortions and failed pregnancies of people who would have gone to heaven anyway? Or if some go one place or the other based on the foreknowledge of what they would have chosen if they had actually been given the choice, why bother creating the ones that are going to be burned at all? What is moral about creating people that you know you're going to burn forever?


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 26, 2011)

So "WE" are carrying out exactly what he put us here to do.. I'm so comforted now


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## bullethead (Jul 26, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> I asked about that once. Why bother with this whole game and just create only the ones that you already know will choose what you want them to and don't bother creating the ones that you know you are going to torture in the basement forever?
> 
> So the question in response to what you've said then becomes, are all abortions and failed pregnancies of people who would have gone to heaven anyway? Or if some go one place or the other based on the foreknowledge of what they would have chosen if they had actually been given the choice, why bother creating the ones that are going to be burned at all? What is moral about creating people that you know you're going to burn forever?



Moral got 'nuttin to do with it. Chalk it up as God's will.


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## bullethead (Jul 26, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> So "WE" are carrying out exactly what he put us here to do.. I'm so comforted now



Yep. Every letter we type, every thought through our brain, every action we take is already known( according to believers) so we are all carrying out what we are "supposed" to do. Some will say we have a choice, but not really as a God that knows everything will have had foreseen our change of mind and planned accordingly.


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## atlashunter (Jul 26, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> I'll be very interested to see how this plays out among the believers here.....



You might be in for a disappointment. They don't want to touch this one with a 10 foot pole.


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## centerpin fan (Jul 26, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> You might be in for a disappointment. They don't want to touch this one with a 10 foot pole.



Don't want to touch what?  I answered the OP, and I wasn't the only one.


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## ambush80 (Jul 26, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Yep. Every letter we type, every thought through our brain, every action we take is already known( according to believers) so we are all carrying out what we are "supposed" to do. Some will say we have a choice, but not really as a God that knows everything will have had foreseen our change of mind and planned accordingly.



I enjoy the Predestination Vs. the Free will debates.   Too bad they don't like to play in this AAA sand box.


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## atlashunter (Jul 26, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> Don't want to touch what?  I answered the OP, and I wasn't the only one.



All the questions that were asked after the OP...


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## centerpin fan (Jul 27, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> All the questions that were asked after the OP...



"I don't know" would be a good answer for them, as would "nobody can know".


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## stringmusic (Jul 27, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> What happens to children and infants who die at a young age, say before they are mentally developed enough to understand and make a free will decision concerning God, Jesus, etc. Are they corrupted by original sin and hence go to he11? Or do they get a free pass to heaven since they never got to use their free will?



I would say they get a "free pass"


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## atlashunter (Jul 27, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> "I don't know" would be a good answer for them, as would "nobody can know".



There are a lot of questions that should get those answers but theists seem to have the answers to. I don't see why my questions should be the exception to the rule.


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## jason4445 (Jul 27, 2011)

The original sin is the most miserable concept Christianity has ever come up with.  That for no other reason than taking a breath God's greatest creation is nothing more than a slimy nasty worm of a creature, not worth God's moment notice until some years in the future when this person accepts God.  The prime reason man came up with this concept was cause of pride and ego so the leap from a non believer to one that believes becomes so much greater and prideful.

There are four way that God says in the Bible that man can get to heaven and one of these way is children go to heaven.  As Jesus was baptizing one day a group of children came and the disciples were going to run them off and Jesus said to let the children come because theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.

Jesus did not say once they accept me as savior theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven - he said no matter what all children go to heaven.


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## atlashunter (Jul 27, 2011)

Jason there are two places where he says something to that effect, once in Matthew and once in Mark. In both cases he says you have to become like children. One could interpret that differently from how you have. I've been told by others here that we are all born into sin. Romans says all have sinned and the wages of sin is death. Jesus also says no man enters the kingdom of heaven except through him so if the whole notion of accepting christ for salvation is true and if what Romans says is true I can see where many christians get the concept of original sin from. I'm not saying I agree with it, but I can see both sides of the theological disagreement. For the sake of this discussion let's just take for granted that those who never get a chance to exercise free will go straight to heaven. That means most people in heaven got there by no choosing of their own. So how can anyone say that the point of this whole exercise in the creation, the fall, and the human sacrifice is to allow people the free will to choose God?


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## dawg2 (Jul 27, 2011)

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 27, 2011)

dawg2 said:


> How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?



zero.   since the bible says that angels look like men.


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## Madman (Jul 27, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> What happens to children and infants who die at a young age, say before they are mentally developed enough to understand and make a free will decision concerning God, Jesus, etc. Are they corrupted by original sin and hence go to he11? Or do they get a free pass to heaven since they never got to use their free will?



I believe the OP needs to broken down. 
Let’s start at the end and work backwards. 

“Or do they get a free pass to heaven since they never got to use their free will?”

I don’t believe anyone gets a “free pass”, the Scriptures state “All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.”  King David says “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.”  So from a Biblical view everyone, even infants are sinful.  Not to mention what we can see as infants develop, they must be taught proper behavior etc.  

The second question to answer is “and hence goes to he11?”  The misconception here is that sin is an automatic sentence to he11.  If that were the case then EVERYONE would go to he11, end of story, when in fact God has provided the solution to the dilemma.  

_2 Cor. 5:18,19 “Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.”_

We can get a glimpse of our mediator and advocate, Christ Jesus, in the story of the stoning of Stephen.

_Acts 7:55,56  55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”_

We see Jesus STANDING by God on behalf of Stephen.
I don’t believe age, mental development, et. al,  are of any concern to God,  in his eyes all are equal.  I do know that He loves everyone more than I can comprehend.  He desires we all come to Him and that can only happen through Christ Jesus.  He is good and will do what is right and with that I am satisfied.

My concern is not for the infant but for those who have heard of Christ and chosen to deny him.  

_Matthew 10:33-34 32 “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven_


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## atlashunter (Jul 27, 2011)

Madman,

You laid the ground work for an answer but then you changed the subject with this.



> My concern is not for the infant but for those who have heard of Christ and chosen to deny him.



It sounds as if you consider all to be tainted by sin from conception. That would include the aborted fetus.

I understand you consider Jesus to be the path to salvation. Those who choose that path go to heaven, those who don't go to eternal fire. We are told that this whole system is to allow man free will to decide where he goes. Never mind the whole issue of the ignorant or the lack of information to make an honest decision, etc. Let's just accept all of that as true. The question remains, what of those who died before they had the ability or opportunity to exercise their free will?


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## Madman (Jul 27, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Madman,
> 
> The question remains, what of those who died before they had the ability or opportunity to exercise their free will?



The question was answered........ "He is good and will do what is right and with that I am satisfied."

Salvation belongs to the Lord. I do not get to decide about anyone other than myself.  As I said my concern is not for the infant but for the denier.


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## atlashunter (Jul 27, 2011)

Madman said:


> The question was answered........ "He is good and will do what is right and with that I am satisfied."
> 
> Salvation belongs to the Lord. I do not get to decide about anyone other than myself.  As I said my concern is not for the infant but for the denier.



Well let me ask you this, do you think it is possible that the right thing would be to send any of them to eternal burning?

And of course you don't get to decide. That's not the question. You don't decide in any case but I doubt you would have any problem saying where those who reject christ will end up.


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## Madman (Jul 27, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Well let me ask you this, do you think it is possible that the right thing would be to send any of them to eternal burning?



Would you let murdering, raping, abusers, move into your home with your wife, and children?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 27, 2011)

Also, I see a difference in "innocent man" and "God-man".   A christian will tell you that God Himself was murdered.

"God will provide HIMSELF a lamb"   Genesis:something


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## atlashunter (Jul 27, 2011)

Madman said:


> Would you let murdering, raping, abusers, move into your home with your wife, and children?



No I wouldn't. I wouldn't put them in a dungeon and burn them forever either though. Is that what some infants and unborn fetuses are guilty of and deserving of? Or are you saying that some of them could do this if permitted entrance into heaven?


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## Madman (Jul 27, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> No I wouldn't. I wouldn't put them in a dungeon and burn them forever either though.



It would appear your problem with the Judeo-Christian God is that not everyone gets to spend eternity with Him.


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## WTM45 (Jul 27, 2011)

Madman said:


> Would you let murdering, raping, abusers, move into your home with your wife, and children?



How about a person who stole a Tootsie Roll when they were 11 and hungry?

The deity of the Bible sees it all as one in the same.  Right?


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## atlashunter (Jul 27, 2011)

Madman said:


> It would appear your problem with the Judeo-Christian God is that not everyone gets to spend eternity with Him.



Not necessarily. I mean if someone wants to spend eternity with him great. I don't find the biblical alternative moral. I can think of other possible alternatives that would be more moral. The idea of free will appeals to me but locking your kids in the basement and torturing them for rejecting you or even angering or hurting you makes a mockery of the whole concept of free will.

But what I'm trying to do in this particular thread is reconcile the various claims christians make and understand what the implications are of what they believe as it relates to those lives that never make it to the age to be capable of free will.


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## dawg2 (Jul 27, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> What happens to children and infants who die at a young age, say before they are mentally developed enough to understand and make a free will decision concerning God, Jesus, etc. Are they corrupted by original sin and hence go to he11? Or do they get a free pass to heaven since they never got to use their free will?


Here is your answer in a nutshell:  NOBODY KNOWS.


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## rjcruiser (Jul 27, 2011)

Read this book.  He lays out a very good case that is backed by scripture.

http://www.amazon.com/Safe-Arms-God-Truth-Heaven/dp/0785263438


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## Madman (Jul 27, 2011)

You seem to have some very fundamental misconceptions of the God of Creation either that or you are throwing out insincere questions in an effort to “trip people”.

The vision of cute infants going to a place where the fire is never quenched and the worm never dies does pull at the heart strings of every companionate person, unfortunately when it has been framed as you have it is a complete misrepresentation of who and what God is.

I believe we only have two choices, God or no God.  If you chose God and have a desire to be with Him for eternity then you accept His forgiveness, on His terms and dwell with Him forever, which is heaven.  If you chose, no God, and deny His forgiveness then you spend eternity outside His presence, which is he11.

The murdering, raping, abuser is not given the option of moving into the Motel 6.  He amends his ways, asks for your forgiveness and accepts your shelter, or moves out into the yard where there is no shelter from the 95+ temperatures and no protection.

The “middle” choice that you desire is where we are today.  God has removed enough of His sustaining power to give us a small taste of what it is like without Him.  

If you think this is as bad as it can get and like it, your choice.  The Bible says it can and will get worse.

"As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."


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## dawg2 (Jul 27, 2011)

Madman said:


> You seem to have some very fundamental misconceptions of the God of Creation either that or you are throwing out insincere questions in an effort to “trip people”.



...we have a WINNER


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## atlashunter (Jul 27, 2011)

Madman I understand what you are saying. I would point out that according to christian theology when the murdering, raping, abusers go to fry they will be in the minority. The majority will be your run of the mill person who tried to live the best life they could, never raped anyone, never killed anyone, maybe even made some pretty decent contributions to humankind in their earthly life. Folks like Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson and Mark Twain. Doesn't matter according to christianity. They get lumped in with the Hitler's of the world (assuming of course Hitler didn't repent and say the sinners prayer right at the end in which case he'll not be in the company of Mark Twain). On the flip side of that coin heaven will be primarily populated with the unborn and those who died infancy from hunger and disease and natural disaster(excepting any cases where the "right thing" is to cast them straight to the hot place). The minority will be those that lived in a time and place to hear the gospel and accepted it and happened to die in a time when they weren't backsliding. These are the clear implications of the christian message so I don't think I'm the one misrepresenting.

Regardless of the answer you end up with a lot of people in a place that had no part in the choosing.


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## stringmusic (Jul 27, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Madman *I understand what you are saying. I would point out that according to christian theology when the murdering, raping, abusers go to fry they will be in the minority. The majority will be your run of the mill person who tried to live the best life they could, never raped anyone, never killed anyone, maybe even made some pretty decent contributions to humankind in their earthly life. Folks like Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson and Mark Twain. Doesn't matter according to christianity. They get lumped in with the Hitler's of the world (assuming of course Hitler didn't repent and say the sinners prayer right at the end in which case he'll not be in the company of Mark Twain). On the flip side of that coin heaven will be primarily populated with the unborn and those who died infancy from hunger and disease and natural disaster(excepting any cases where the "right thing" is to cast them straight to the hot place). The minority will be those that lived in a time and place to hear the gospel and accepted it and happened to die in a time when they weren't backsliding. These are the clear implications of the christian message so I don't think I'm the one misrepresenting.
> 
> Regardless of the answer you end up with a lot of people in a place that had no part in the choosing*.



The part in *red* is the part you got wrong.


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## Madman (Jul 27, 2011)

dawg2 said:


> ...we have a WINNER



I was hoping for a sincere question but I believe you are correct.


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## atlashunter (Jul 27, 2011)

I'm sorry you fellas think I'm wrong and insincere. I assure you the questions are sincere. Would be nice if someone could offer an answer that reconciles the various claims that led to the questions in the first place.


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## rjcruiser (Jul 27, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> I'm sorry you fellas think I'm wrong and insincere. I assure you the questions are sincere. Would be nice if someone could offer an answer that reconciles the various claims that led to the questions in the first place.



If you are sincere, you'd read the book I mentioned above.

I too also fear your motive is as genuine as a Clinton apology.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 27, 2011)

I'm sticking with my original response.   IMO, it would be an horrible for God to condemn infants/babies to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----, or even an empty eternity.


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## Madman (Jul 27, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Would be nice if someone could offer an answer that reconciles the various claims that led to the questions in the first place.



Perhaps you should state "the various claims that led to the questions in the first place" or did I miss them?

From the OP the true question appears to be about the nature of God and that question was answered.


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## atlashunter (Jul 27, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> If you are sincere, you'd read the book I mentioned above.



How about a synopsis? Does this question really require an entire book to answer?


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## atlashunter (Jul 27, 2011)

Madman said:


> Perhaps you should state "the various claims that led to the questions in the first place" or did I miss them?
> 
> From the OP the true question appears to be about the nature of God and that question was answered.



Yeah you missed them. The premises are the foundational concepts of christianity, that is original sin, salvation by faith, and free will. I've been told here before that God's special torture chamber is justified because where people end up is a matter of free will. Free will is also often given as the reason we have evil and pain and suffering in the world, even when it is naturally caused.

If you consider all of the humans that have been conceived (life and the human spirit begin at conception right?) and died before reaching an age where free will could be exercised that number is likely greater than the number of those conceived that have lived long enough to mature to the point of exercising free will. The question of where all these souls end up is worth asking because it sheds additional light on the doctrines of original sin and salvation by faith. Does a fertilized egg carry with it the original sin from Adam and if so, how could it be saved without being capable of faith? Most here have answered that it carries a sinful nature but not Adam's guilt and therefore is not destined to burn. It gets a free pass to heaven without having to pass the free will test. Or to put it another way, that soul was predestined to go to heaven and had no say in the matter. How can this be reconciled by those who adhere to the free will doctrine? Especially in light of how many souls this would equate to? It would mean most of the souls in heaven were predestined to be there and a small minority got there through faith.


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## dawg2 (Jul 27, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> How about a synopsis? Does this question really require an entire book to answer?



For some things there are no shortcuts.


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## atlashunter (Jul 27, 2011)

dawg2 said:


> For some things there are no shortcuts.



I'd settle for the Cliff's notes version...

Here is the product description of the book.



> Every parent who has lost a child has dealt with disturbing, haunting questions. Why my child? Where is my baby now? Will I ever see my child again?
> 
> Renowned Bible expositor John MacArthur tackles the question of infant death (in the womb or following birth) in his trademark style-with detailed attention to Scriptures that hold the answers. No death occurs apart from the purposes of God, MacArthur assures readers, just as no life occurs apart from the purposes of God.
> 
> ...



See how easy that was?

I understand that christians don't agree on this question of where they go. Catholics used to say they went to limbo, now they don't. This book says they go to heaven. Certainly a comforting thought to any parent who has lost a little one. Let's accept that for the sake of the discussion. Now what about free will vs predestination?


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## ambush80 (Jul 27, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> I'd settle for the Cliff's notes version...
> 
> Here is the product description of the book.
> 
> ...



I like GTparts' or maybe it was RJcruiser's explanation of how God can be surprised by something we do: He turns off His omniscience super power temporarily.


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## Madman (Jul 27, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Yeah you missed them. The premises are the foundational concepts of christianity, that is original sin, salvation by faith, and free will. I've been told here before that God's special torture chamber is justified because where people end up is a matter of free will. Free will is also often given as the reason we have evil and pain and suffering in the world, even when it is naturally caused.
> 
> If you consider all of the humans that have been conceived (life and the human spirit begin at conception right?) and died before reaching an age where free will could be exercised that number is likely greater than the number of those conceived that have lived long enough to mature to the point of exercising free will. The question of where all these souls end up is worth asking because it sheds additional light on the doctrines of original sin and salvation by faith. Does a fertilized egg carry with it the original sin from Adam and if so, how could it be saved without being capable of faith? Most here have answered that it carries a sinful nature but not Adam's guilt and therefore is not destined to burn. It gets a free pass to heaven without having to pass the free will test. Or to put it another way, that soul was predestined to go to heaven and had no say in the matter. How can this be reconciled by those who adhere to the free will doctrine? Especially in light of how many souls this would equate to? It would mean most of the souls in heaven were predestined to be there and a small minority got there through faith.



Wow!  I really did miss them!  All the while I thought you were simply asking what happens to infants, it has now moved to fertilized eggs!

As for the foundational beliefs of historic Christianity; 
1)	Original Sin – yes (By one man sin entered the world)
2)	Saved by faith – no (We are saved by grace)
3)	Free will – yes 

Pain, suffering, thorns and thistles, entered the world because of Adam’s decision to disobey God.  Read the Book of Genesis. If you chose to say “Free will is also often given as the reason we have evil and pain and suffering in the world, even when it is naturally caused” then so be it.  That is why words and definitions are very important. 


It would be of great benefit if you would get some really good BOOKS on historic Christian theology and study them.  The internet and blogosphere are mainly just people’s opinions and feelings.

For instance if I were in charge I would like for everyone to get along and live together in heaven, but I am not in charge and God, who is in charge, knows why that will not work.  That is why He is in charge and I am not and I am glad for that.


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## Madman (Jul 27, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> I'd settle for the Cliff's notes version...



This is the reason your worldview is skewed.


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## atlashunter (Jul 27, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> It gets a free pass to heaven without having to pass the free will test. Or to put it another way, that soul was predestined to go to heaven and had no say in the matter. How can this be reconciled by those who adhere to the free will doctrine? Especially in light of how many souls this would equate to? It would mean most of the souls in heaven were predestined to be there and a small minority got there through faith.



Let's try this again.


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## Spotlite (Jul 27, 2011)

WTM45 said:


> Every authority I have read or studied under held to the premise of "individual accountability."
> 
> Born with it, yes, but not subject to it until one is made aware or is "enlightened" to their plight.


You almost hit the nail on the head here. A child will naturally reach the age of accountability when he / she is old enough or mature enough and mentally stable enough to understand what salvation means. 


WTM45 said:


> The same lophole is extended to those who are mentally incapable of understanding right from wrong as well.
> 
> Yep.  A feel good work-around.
> 
> ...



But you hit your finger here, not even close to the nail


----------



## WTM45 (Jul 27, 2011)

This is not my belief nor is it my opinion.
I'm only relaying what some significant authorities on the Bible have taught in collegiate level courses I've attended.
Of course your opinion may differ from theirs.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 27, 2011)

WTM45 said:


> This is not my belief nor is it my opinion.
> I'm only relaying what some significant authorities on the Bible have taught in collegiate level courses I've attended.
> Of course your opinion may differ from theirs.



Ever get the nagging feeling they are just making this up as they go?


----------



## WTM45 (Jul 27, 2011)

All religious belief systems are an interesting study of humanities.
And, even inhumanity.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 27, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> I'd settle for the Cliff's notes version...



And when you settle, your level of understanding is equal to your laziness.




			
				atlashunter said:
			
		

> Now what about free will vs predestination?



MacArthur is a proponent of Predestination as I am as well.  He deals with that in the book....but it was left out of the cliff's notes version.



ambush80 said:


> I like GTparts' or maybe it was RJcruiser's explanation of how God can be surprised by something we do: He turns off His omniscience super power temporarily.



Nope...wasn't me.  God is never surprised.


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 27, 2011)

> MacArthur is a proponent of Predestination as I am as well.



Predestination is very interesting to me.  I have thought a lot about this and I can't get past these points:

1. If we are predestined for heaven, aren't we also predestined for he11?
2. If we are predestined for he11, why bother letting us exist just to be condemned?
3. If it is all played out already, doesn't that kind-of eliminate the stated purpose for our existence (God's glory)?

I just have a tough time understanding why a believer would put faith in a system which may condemn folks before they have a chance to fix it.  Doesn't that eliminate the need for a savior?  Or, if an individual is predestined, why would Jesus have to die for their sins, and, didn't he waste his time dieing for those already going to he11 (it does say he died for everybody, right)?


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 27, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Predestination is very interesting to me.  I have thought a lot about this and I can't get past these points:
> 
> 1. If we are predestined for heaven, aren't we also predestined for he11?
> 2. If we are predestined for he11, why bother letting us exist just to be condemned?
> ...




To answer your first couple of questions, has God ever rejected anyone who wanted to be a Christian?  Don't think so.

As far as the reason Jesus had to die...well...because that is how God wanted it.  Sin's penalty is death.  Someone had to pay the penalty.  God the Father wanted His Son to pay that penalty.  

And where does it say God died for all including those who are not saved?


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 27, 2011)

> And where does it say God died for all including those who are not saved?



John 3:17 (16's little known cousin).  



> has God ever rejected anyone who wanted to be a Christian? Don't think so.



How does that answer the predestination question?  If God already knows what a person will and won't try, why bother?  Questions 1 and 2 are still unanswered.  Is a person predestined for he11?


----------



## bullethead (Jul 27, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> To answer your first couple of questions, has God ever rejected anyone who wanted to be a Christian?  Don't think so.
> 
> As far as the reason Jesus had to die...well...because that is how God wanted it.  Sin's penalty is death.  Someone had to pay the penalty.  God the Father wanted His Son to pay that penalty.
> 
> And where does it say God died for all including those who are not saved?



God already knows who wants to be a Christian. He made them, he knows everything about them before they exist. Nobody that changed their mind or heart has ever surprised God, he already knew what would happen. He did not program them that way, he just knows the end result before it happens.

God really must have wanted Jesus to die. He sent him here for that purpose even though God knows who will follow Jesus and who will not.....he knew that a few trillion years ago or maybe longer....so he had to create Jesus, send him to die for us and use his death to save the believers because he wanted to watch what he already knows will happen play out.

God already has the list of the "saved". Everything else is a show for ones who are not.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 27, 2011)

Nothing has to be predetermined when God knows the outcome no matter how twisted the plot can become. There is no guesswork involved on his part.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 27, 2011)

I am beginning to re-think my entire outlook. I am doing exactly what God knows I would be doing, thinking, typing and I will end up in the same place no matter what I choose because I really do not have a choice. It will turn out as it turns out. If I believe, I am on the right course and if I do not believe, I am on the right course. I cannot surprise him either way as he already knows where my future is headed.

I get the feeling I was supposed to write that....??


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 27, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> John 3:17 (16's little known cousin).
> 
> 
> 
> How does that answer the predestination question?  If God already knows what a person will and won't try, why bother?  Questions 1 and 2 are still unanswered.  Is a person predestined for he11?



John 3
16"For(A) God so loved(B) the world,[a](C) that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not(D) perish but have eternal life. 17For(E) God did not send his Son into the world(F) to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him


Still don't see where it says He died for the sins of the whole World.

No...a person is not predestined to hel1.  Like I said before, no one wants to be chosen by God and is rejected by Him.  The only people that are going to hel1 are those who have rejected Him and His teachings.


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 27, 2011)

> The only people that are going to hel1 are those who have rejected Him and His teachings.



But, if God already knows they won't do it, they are predestined for he11.  He let's it happen anyway?



> God did not send his Son into the world(F) to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him



I had always just assumed the word "world" meant everybody.  My bad.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 27, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> But, if God already knows they won't do it, they are predestined for he11.  He let's it happen anyway?



You see your child jumping on the bed.  You tell them not to jump on the bed because they'll hurt themselves.  They keep jumping on the bed and hurt themselves.  Is it your fault?

God predestines us to Heaven as Christians.  Non-Christians choose to continue to live in sin.



			
				JB0704 said:
			
		

> I had always just assumed the word "world" meant everybody.  My bad.



God sent his son to the World that they might be saved.  However, Christ's death and resurrection.....atonement for sins, is only applied to those who repent and believe.


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 27, 2011)

> atonement for sins, is only applied to those who repent and believe.



But how does that define those that don't as predestined?



> You see your child jumping on the bed. You tell them not to jump on the bed because they'll hurt themselves. They keep jumping on the bed and hurt themselves.



Okay, but if I saw my kid playing next to a fire I would intervene.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 27, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> But how does that define those that don't as predestined?


  They choose to reject Christ.




			
				JB0704 said:
			
		

> Okay, but if I saw my kid playing next to a fire I would intervene.



What's the difference?  Jumping on the bed...playing with fire.  Both can cause injuries....both can lead to death.


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 27, 2011)

> Jumping on the bed...playing with fire. Both can cause injuries....both can lead to death



What if he is jumping on the bed which is lit on fire?  Shouldn't I, as a good parent, then try to get him to find other avenues for recreation?  If I let him continue to jump on the fiery bed, I think I would have to assume some responsibility.

But, I don't know everything.  Maybe good parents let their kids play with fire.




> No...a person is not predestined to hel1.



Then where are the people who are not predestined for heaven predestined to go?


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 27, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> But, if God already knows they won't do it, they are predestined for he11.  He let's it happen anyway?



Not only that, he creates them with the foreknowledge that he will burn them forever. And again we aren't primarily talking about the worst of the worst. Christians always point out that is where the murderers and child rapists go... if they don't repent of course in which case heaven is their everlasting reward. But those people would be a small minority in the lake of fire. Most people there are just your average Joe that either never heard of Jesus or didn't believe in Jesus. All those jews who were gassed and buried alive in the holocaust? They are in the lake of fire according to christian doctrine because they didn't accept Jesus. Meanwhile most of those in heaven are those who had no part in choosing to be there. People who were never even born or who only lived a short time after birth. It's a belief system rotten to the core.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 27, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> You see your child jumping on the bed.  You tell them not to jump on the bed because they'll hurt themselves.  They keep jumping on the bed and hurt themselves.  Is it your fault?



That's a terrible analogy. A better one is that you make a gun and bullets with the full knowledge that you're going to load the gun, hand it to your child, tell them not to look into the barrel and pull the trigger while knowing they will, having another one of your children dare them to do it with your knowledge that they will do it, and standing by with folded arms and watching while it all plays out.





rjcruiser said:


> God sent his son to the World that they might be saved.  However, Christ's death and resurrection.....atonement for sins, is only applied to those who repent and believe.



Not true according to you and Mr Macarthur. Those who never have an opportunity to sin or repent get sent straight to heaven.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 28, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Then where are the people who are not predestined for heaven predestined to go?



They're not predestined.  They've chosen Sin.



atlashunter said:


> Most people there are just your average Joe that either never heard of Jesus or didn't believe in Jesus.



False.  Everyone has been given an opportunity to hear the message of Christ....but that is another debate.  Let's keep it simple and talk about you.  Have you heard the message of Jesus Christ?



			
				atlashunter said:
			
		

> All those jews who were gassed and buried alive in the holocaust? They are in the lake of fire according to christian doctrine because they didn't accept Jesus.


Really?  All?  You don't think that Hitler gassed any Christians? or Messianic Jews?



			
				atlashunter said:
			
		

> Meanwhile most of those in heaven are those who had no part in choosing to be there. People who were never even born or who only lived a short time after birth. It's a belief system rotten to the core.






atlashunter said:


> Not true according to you and Mr Macarthur. Those who never have an opportunity to sin or repent get sent straight to heaven.



  You need to read the book before you go assuming people's positions based on a 2 paragraph summary.

Your ignorance shows your motive.


----------



## dexrusjak (Jul 28, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> To answer your first couple of questions, has God ever rejected anyone who wanted to be a Christian?  Don't think so.
> 
> As far as the reason Jesus had to die...well...because that is how God wanted it.  Sin's penalty is death.  Someone had to pay the penalty.  God the Father wanted His Son to pay that penalty.
> 
> And where does it say God died for all including those who are not saved?



And you're okay with this?  According to Christianity, god is the ultimate rules-maker.  He could have established absolutely any kind of universe/existence he chose, and yet he created one in which he WANTED his "son" to be murdered?  If Christians could only step away from their belief system for a moment and think about that as an objective outsider, they would see how incompatible this scenario is with many of their beliefs about the nature of god.  How can a god be all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing and choose to create a system in which the penalty for sin is death/he11?  Why not a system in which the penalty for sin is a spanking or a fine?  Wouldn't that be more loving?


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 28, 2011)

> They're not predestined. They've chosen Sin.



That makes no sense.  Folks who go to heaven are predestined for heaven.  Everybody else who goes to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- chooses he11?  What if somebody who wasn't predestined didn't want to go to he11.  Could they choose heaven?


----------



## dexrusjak (Jul 28, 2011)

From the Christian perspective, if all babies/fetuses go to Heaven, why is abortion a bad thing?


----------



## TheBishop (Jul 28, 2011)

Rj you make no logical sense once so ever.   You say you are a proponent of predestination.  Well predestination cannot be partial. Life is either predetermined or it isn't, which is it?   If you say it is, then there is no other way around the fact that god knew/knows the outcome for everything. It has chosen our paths well before we have and there is truely no such thing as free will.  Predestination and free will cannot be intertwined not even partially.  Putting choice into the equasion means there is more than one possible outcome that is yet to be determined.   

So predestination means, god not only knows whos going to bbq but has chosen who is going to bbq and there is we have no choice in the matter.


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 28, 2011)

> why is abortion a bad thing



Same reason killing an infant is a bad thing.  Anti-abortion folks (I am against it) believe that the human life begins at conception.  To take that life is to deprive another individual of their rights.  Religion doesn't have to have anything to do with it.


----------



## TheBishop (Jul 28, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> To take that life is to deprive another individual of their rights.  Religion doesn't have to have anything to do with it.



x infinity!!!


----------



## dexrusjak (Jul 28, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Same reason killing an infant is a bad thing.  Anti-abortion folks (I am against it) believe that the human life begins at conception.  To take that life is to deprive another individual of their rights.  Religion doesn't have to have anything to do with it.



Not trying to thread-jack here, but from a Christian perspective, I would think that the certainty of eternity in Heaven would outweigh the chance to live a relatively short life and Earth and have free will.

Christians, let's say you're expecting a child, a girl, and you get to choose between the following two options for your daughter, which one would you pick?

1. Your daughter is aborted in the womb and goes to Heaven.
2. Your daughter grows up to be and atheist, dies and goes to He11.

Which would you choose?


----------



## dexrusjak (Jul 28, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> Rj you make no logical sense once so ever.   You say you are a proponent of predestination.  Well predestination cannot be partial. Life is either predetermined or it isn't, which is it?   If you say it is, then there is no other way around the fact that god knew/knows the outcome for everything. It has chosen our paths well before we have and there is truely no such thing as free will.  Predestination and free will cannot be intertwined not even partially.  Putting choice into the equasion means there is more than one possible outcome that is yet to be determined.
> 
> So predestination means, god not only knows whos going to bbq but has chosen who is going to bbq and there is we have no choice in the matter.



Remember, people who believe that predestination and free will can coexist are some of the same people who believe that Jesus was 100% god and 100% man, that believing in three gods who function as one is not polytheism, and that donkeys can talk.


----------



## centerpin fan (Jul 28, 2011)

dexrusjak said:


> Christians, let's say you're expecting a child, a girl, and you get to choose between the following two options for your daughter, which one would you pick?
> 
> 1. Your daughter is aborted in the womb and goes to Heaven.
> 2. Your daughter grows up to be and atheist, dies and goes to He11.



Option #1 has_ the mother _killing her daughter in the womb.  Option #2 is tragic, but the daughter makes that decision, not the mother.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 28, 2011)

dexrusjak said:


> And you're okay with this?  According to Christianity, god is the ultimate rules-maker.  He could have established absolutely any kind of universe/existence he chose, and yet he created one in which he WANTED his "son" to be murdered?  If Christians could only step away from their belief system for a moment and think about that as an objective outsider, they would see how incompatible this scenario is with many of their beliefs about the nature of god.  How can a god be all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing and choose to create a system in which the penalty for sin is death/he11?  Why not a system in which the penalty for sin is a spanking or a fine?  Wouldn't that be more loving?



You only choose the attributes of God that you want to.  God is also righteous and just.  Therefore, the penalty must be paid.  His love and mercy have given us a way to escape the penalty.



JB0704 said:


> That makes no sense.  Folks who go to heaven are predestined for heaven.  Everybody else who goes to he1l---- chooses he11?  What if somebody who wasn't predestined didn't want to go to he11.  Could they choose heaven?



Let me ask you this....because it doesn't appear that you want to make Jesus Lord of your life.  And this question is really for all on this forum that don't want Jesus to be Lord of their life.

Do you want to choose your sin and a life of unbelief or do you want to accept Christ as your Lord and Savior?


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 28, 2011)

dexrusjak said:


> 1. Your daughter is aborted in the womb and goes to Heaven.



Two wrongs don't make a right.



dexrusjak said:


> Remember, people who believe that predestination and free will can coexist are some of the same people who believe that Jesus was 100% god and 100% man, that believing in three gods who function as one is not polytheism, and that donkeys can talk.



You have a basic understanding of Christianity, but have other religions mixed in in your statement above.

There is but one God.  Google the Shema and read all about it. 

Donkey's don't talk, although God can and will use what he pleases to get his message across.


----------



## tween_the_banks (Jul 28, 2011)

Honestly guys, if you were a God just sitting lonesome in the nothingness, and you decided to entertain yourself by creating creatures in your image one day,not to simply live or anything, but to praise you...wouldn't you feel a little vain?
And suddenly very shortly after their creation they break your only rule? Is that not foreshadowing of what's to come of the little project of yours?
But you decided to heat things up, you enlighten them and tell them if they don't accept you as their Lord,that they'll burn for eternity...
Wouldn't you, after having to send a few of these living creatures that you created to this bad bad place, feel the need to just call the whole thing off? I mean really?
He doesn't really HAVE to do this, right?
We are a project for his praise.
Had I occupied that nothingness, I would have tried with all my might to fight that hunger to rule. That need to be known as a God.
You see, for him to be a God, he sure comes across mighty humanly.
Not trying to stir or step on toes, this is just how I look at it.
Sorry if I offended.


----------



## dexrusjak (Jul 28, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> Option #1 has_ the mother _killing her daughter in the womb.  Option #2 is tragic, but the daughter makes that decision, not the mother.



But isn't the welfare of the child the mother's number one obligation as a parent?  If she chooses to have an abortion, she covers her eternal bases.


----------



## dexrusjak (Jul 28, 2011)

tween_the_banks said:


> Honestly guys, if you were a God just sitting lonesome in the nothingness, and you decided to entertain yourself by creating creatures in your image one day,not to simply live or anything, but to praise you...wouldn't you feel a little vain?
> And suddenly very shortly after their creation they break your only rule? Is that not foreshadowing of what's to come of the little project of yours?
> But you decided to heat things up, you enlighten them and tell them if they don't accept you as their Lord,that they'll burn for eternity...
> Wouldn't you, after having to send a few of these living creatures that you created to this bad bad place, feel the need to just call the whole thing off? I mean really?
> ...



Well said.


----------



## dexrusjak (Jul 28, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> You only choose the attributes of God that you want to.  God is also righteous and just.  Therefore, the penalty must be paid.  His love and mercy have given us a way to escape the penalty.



Is god evil?


----------



## TheBishop (Jul 28, 2011)

Rj care to address post 83?


----------



## TheBishop (Jul 28, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> You only choose the attributes of God that you want to.  God is also righteous and just.  Therefore, the penalty must be paid.  His love and mercy have given us a way to escape the penalty.



If there is a way to escape the penalty then the outcome is not predetermined.  

So are you a proponent in predestination or not? I get it just whatever sounds good at the moment.


----------



## centerpin fan (Jul 28, 2011)

dexrusjak said:


> But isn't the welfare of the child the mother's number one obligation as a parent?  If she chooses to have an abortion, she covers her eternal bases.



Be serious.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 28, 2011)

dexrusjak said:


> Is god evil?



How can one be evil and just at the same time?



TheBishop said:


> Rj care to address post 83?



I did.  Answer this question and you'll answer your own post.

Do you want to choose your sin and a life of unbelief or do you want to accept Christ as your Lord and Savior?



TheBishop said:


> If there is a way to escape the penalty then the outcome is not predetermined.
> 
> So are you a proponent in predestination or not? I get it just whatever sounds good at the moment.



Do you want me to answer your questions or are you going to answer them for me?


----------



## TheBishop (Jul 28, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> Be serious.



I think it is a good question.  Would you as a parent condem yourself if you could avoid your childs condemnation? Its the ultimate sacrifice. Your eternal pursecution for your childs eternal salvation.  Do you not love your child enough to give up your ertenal bliss so that they may have theirs? I would do it without hesitation IF I thought that could be accomplished (which I don't).


----------



## TheBishop (Jul 28, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> How can one be evil and just at the same time?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You haven't done anything but dodge.  How can you believe in predestination and still believe in choice?  If it is all predetermined I do not have a choice. Make up your mind. 

Predestination or free will which is it?


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 28, 2011)

> Let me ask you this....because it doesn't appear that you want to make Jesus Lord of your life.



Let me respond to this with a quote you have probably heard 1000 times which is usually attributed to Ghandi but I can't verify that and the online sources I have found attribute it to various individuals.  Either way, it kind of sums my opinion on this matter:

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."


----------



## TheBishop (Jul 28, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> I think it is a good question.  Would you as a parent condem yourself if you could avoid your childs condemnation? Its the ultimate sacrifice. Your eternal pursecution for your childs eternal salvation.  Do you not love your child enough to give up your ertenal bliss so that they may have theirs? I would do it without hesitation IF I thought that could be accomplished (which I don't).



Another caveat to this: If in commiting the ultimate act of selflessness by relenquishing your own salvation for anothers, shouldn't you in turn earn your salvation?


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 28, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> You haven't done anything but dodge.  How can you believe in predestination and still believe in choice?  If it is all predetermined I do not have a choice. Make up your mind.
> 
> Predestination or free will which is it?





			
				Ephesians 1 said:
			
		

> Ephesians 1
> 1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
> To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
> 
> 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.



Now...quite dodging my question.

Do you want to choose your sin and a life of unbelief or do you want to accept Christ as your Lord and Savior?


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 28, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Let me respond to this with a quote you have probably heard 1000 times which is usually attributed to Ghandi but I can't verify that and the online sources I have found attribute it to various individuals.  Either way, it kind of sums my opinion on this matter:
> 
> "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."



You let the servants of the King determine your relationship with the King?

As Bishop says...quit dodging.  Answer the question.

Do you want to choose your sin and a life of unbelief or do you want to accept Christ as your Lord and Savior?


----------



## TheBishop (Jul 28, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Now...quite dodging my question.
> 
> Do you want to choose your sin and a life of unbelief or do you want to accept Christ as your Lord and Savior?



It is easy for me to answer.  I beleive I have a choice and it is not predetermined.  The answer to your question is not pertinent to the answer of mine.  Wether or not I accept jesus or not does not answer wether or not predestination exsist. If predestination exsist then my choice was made along time before I was born.  That is the point of predestination.  

There is no choice in predestination.  

Now answer the question, and quit dodging.  Its a simple yes or no. Is our destiny predetermined or not?


----------



## stringmusic (Jul 28, 2011)

tween_the_banks said:


> Honestly guys,* if you were a God* just sitting lonesome in the nothingness, and you decided to entertain yourself by creating creatures in your image one day,not to simply live or anything, but to praise you...wouldn't you feel a little vain?
> And suddenly very shortly after their creation they break your only rule? Is that not foreshadowing of what's to come of the little project of yours?
> But you decided to heat things up, you enlighten them and tell them if they don't accept you as their Lord,that they'll burn for eternity...
> Wouldn't you, after having to send a few of these living creatures that you created to this bad bad place, feel the need to just call the whole thing off? I mean really?
> ...



Your premise is skewed from the start, your nor I are God. What you or I or anybody thinks they would do if they were God means nothing.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 28, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> It is easy for me to answer.  I beleive I have a choice and it is not predetermined.  The answer to your question is not pertinent to the answer of mine.  Wether or not I accept jesus or not does not answer wether or not predestination exsist. If predestination exsist then my choice was made along time before I was born.  That is the point of predestination.
> 
> There is no choice in predestination.
> 
> Now answer the question, and quit dodging.  Its a simple yes or no. Is our destiny predetermined or not?




I did answer the question above.

Reread Ephesians 1.  That answers it for me.


Now...that we've gotten that out of the way.  Quit dodging my question.

Do you want to continue to live your life as you want to? or do you want to make Jesus Christ Lord of your life?


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 28, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> False.  Everyone has been given an opportunity to hear the message of Christ....but that is another debate.  Let's keep it simple and talk about you.  Have you heard the message of Jesus Christ?



Did you miss the part where I said "or didn't believe in Jesus"? Yes I've heard. And just as a reference have you heard of the prophet Mohammed or the message of Hinduism? Sure hope for your sake you don't eat cows...




rjcruiser said:


> Really?  All?  You don't think that Hitler gassed any Christians? or Messianic Jews?



Now you're nitpicking. You know I'm referring to any victim that didn't believe in Jesus. If a jew has converted to christianity I'm not calling them a jew I'm calling them a christian. We both know that very few of the jews murdered in the Holocaust would have been in that group. So again to the original point most of these non-christian victims of Hitler were not murderers or rapists. They were just average people going about their lives and living the best they could as jews or whatever other religion they might have held to.

You said that God is never surprised. So what you are saying is he knew that all of these unsaved jews would be gassed and sent to burn for eternity before he even created them and before he even created Hitler. And the justification for this is free will? Never mind the fact that the greatest determining factor in what someone believes is who they are born to. Doesn't the free will justification for this whole system of eternal destiny fall apart if most people in heaven having had no part in the choosing to be there?




rjcruiser said:


> You need to read the book before you go assuming people's positions based on a 2 paragraph summary.



If I misunderstand your position all you have to do is clarify. Something others here are trying to get you to do with little success. Are you now saying that the souls who never live long enough to make a choice don't go to heaven? What part of my statement exactly do you disagree with?


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 28, 2011)

> Do you want to choose your sin and a life of unbelief or do you want to accept Christ as your Lord and Savior?



I'm sure you also know that there is even division within the Christian community over the doctrines you are claiming.  Read "Love Wins" by Rob Bell.  He is the pastor of a mega church (Mars Hill in Grandville, MI) and, until he wrote that book, every contemporary church in the country mimicked him.  He claims that God's nature would prevent God from sending anybody to he11, and in the end all would choose him.  Now consider that and the fact that millions of individuals on this Earth only had nature as a witness to the existence of God.  How did they hear about Jesus?  Did they go to he11?


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 28, 2011)

> Do you want to choose your sin and a life of unbelief or do you want to accept Christ as your Lord and Savior



If I am predetermined I don't have a choice.  I could make a claim, but God has already determined what that will be, right?  

Also, accepting Jesus Christ does not eliminate a life of sin.  How many preachers cheat on their wives.  But, they get to heaven because they were predetermined while the honest hard working South American Indian that worshipped the sun god 1000 years ago had no option but he11 because he had never heard of Jesus?


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 28, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Same reason killing an infant is a bad thing.  Anti-abortion folks (I am against it) believe that the human life begins at conception.  To take that life is to deprive another individual of their rights.  Religion doesn't have to have anything to do with it.



I think what he was getting at is from a christian perspective why would it be bad to eliminate the risk someone may go to eternal torment by sending them straight to heaven.

The question is a good one. Christians believe God forgives murder so the woman who had an abortion is not doomed to burn. She can still enter the pearly gates.

If there was let's say a 50/50 chance of your child being burned and tortured for eternity and you could completely eliminate that risk by sending them directly to heaven would it not be a loving act to do so?


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 28, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> I did answer the question above.
> 
> Reread Ephesians 1.  That answers it for me.
> 
> ...



If you want to be properly understood instead of pasting scripture that is completely open to interpretation and not offering your own or telling someone to go read a book, just answer the question. Tell us what you think in your own words. Why is that so difficult?


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 28, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> You said that God is never surprised. So what you are saying is he knew that all of these unsaved jews would be gassed and sent to burn for eternity before he even created them and before he even created Hitler.



Yes, I agree with that statement.




			
				atlashunter said:
			
		

> And the justification for this is free will? Never mind the fact that the greatest determining factor in what someone believes is who they are born to. Doesn't the free will justification for this whole system of eternal destiny fall apart if most people in heaven having had no part in the choosing to be there?



I don't believe in free will...well...I guess we all have free will to choose sin.  Just not the free will to choose Christ.  We are spiritually dead.  We can't revive ourselves from the dead.  Only the Holy Spirit can do that.



			
				atlashunter said:
			
		

> If I misunderstand your position all you have to do is clarify. Something others here are trying to get you to do with little success. Are you now saying that the souls who never live long enough to make a choice don't go to heaven? What part of my statement exactly do you disagree with?



What I'm saying is that the book does a great job of showing how God can remain just while covering the original sin of those that do not have the mental capacity to understand the gospel message.  And no, it can't be covered in 2 paragraphs.



JB0704 said:


> I'm sure you also know that there is even division within the Christian community over the doctrines you are claiming.  Read "Love Wins" by Rob Bell.  He is the pastor of a mega church (Mars Hill in Grandville, MI) and, until he wrote that book, every contemporary church in the country mimicked him.  He claims that God's nature would prevent God from sending anybody to he11, and in the end all would choose him.



Problem with Rob Bell is that the doctrine he is teaching is his doctrine, not that of the Bible.  Oh, I know there is plenty of division within "christianity."



			
				JB0704 said:
			
		

> Now consider that and the fact that millions of individuals on this Earth only had nature as a witness to the existence of God.  How did they hear about Jesus?  Did they go to he11?



I'll let scripture again answer your question.



			
				Acts 14 said:
			
		

> 15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We are also men of the same nature as you, and preach the gospel to you that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, WHO MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM. 16 In the generations gone by He permitted all the nations to go their own ways; 17 and yet He did not leave Himself without witness, in that He did good and gave you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying your hearts with food and gladness.” 18 Even saying these things, with difficulty they restrained the crowds from offering sacrifice to them.





Now...I want to make it personal.  Because while I'm sure there are people living in the rainforest that have never seen a Bible...you have seen a Bible.  You have access to a Bible.

So I'll ask again.

Do you want to choose your sin and a life of unbelief or do you want to accept Christ as your Lord and Savior? 


Why can't anyone in here answer this simple question?


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 28, 2011)

> Problem with Rob Bell is that the doctrine he is teaching is his doctrine, not that of the Bible



The same claim could be made of predestination.


----------



## tween_the_banks (Jul 28, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Your premise is skewed from the start, your nor I are God. What you or I or anybody thinks they would do if they were God means nothing.


I think it means quite a bit
Great strategy in dodging  every worthy and rational point and question I brought forth however.


----------



## TheBishop (Jul 28, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> I did answer the question above.
> 
> Reread Ephesians 1.  That answers it for me.
> 
> ...



You haven't answered anything. I answer your question, but it does not answer mine.  No I don't believe jesus is anything but a man that may or may not have lived ages ago. 

Now answer mine. In your own words please.

Do you beleive in predestination?

How can predestination and free will co-exsist?


----------



## TheBishop (Jul 28, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Yes, I agree with that statement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm sorry you make no sense once so ever.  If I do not have free will, I cannot choose christ or unbeleif.  God has chosen it for me and therefore chosen wether I'll burn or not. So what is the point?


----------



## centerpin fan (Jul 28, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Read "Love Wins" by Rob Bell.  He is the pastor of a mega church (Mars Hill in Grandville, MI) and, until he wrote that book, every contemporary church in the country mimicked him.



I highlighted the key phrase in your statement.  Here are other ways of saying it:

"until he completely disregarded 2,000 years of church teaching"

"until he began to believe his own press clippings"


----------



## TheBishop (Jul 28, 2011)

tween_the_banks said:


> I think it means quite a bit
> Great strategy in dodging  every worthy and rational point and question I brought forth however.



Dodging is their doctrine.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 28, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> If you want to be properly understood instead of pasting scripture that is completely open to interpretation and not offering your own or telling someone to go read a book, just answer the question. Tell us what you think in your own words. Why is that so difficult?





Let me repost.

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, 
   To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 

 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory. 



Okay...I've underlined the key words in the scripture.  If you still think I believe in free-will...

I believe in what the Bible says.  To me, this passage is pretty cut and dry.  God Chose us/predestined us/gave us His FREE gift of salvation.


----------



## TheBishop (Jul 28, 2011)

I'd love someone to address #99, and 102.


----------



## TheBishop (Jul 28, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> I believe in what the Bible says.  To me, this passage is pretty cut and dry.  God Chose us/predestined us/gave us His FREE gift of salvation.




So we cannot choose christ and be saved? God predestined me to go to the eternal lake of fire without giving me a choice?

Yeah, your god is all loving.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 28, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> The same claim could be made of predestination.



See Ephesians 1



TheBishop said:


> You haven't answered anything. I answer your question, but it does not answer mine.  No I don't believe jesus is anything but a man that may or may not have lived ages ago.
> 
> Now answer mine. In your own words please.
> 
> ...



Yes, I believe in predestination.

No, predestination and free will can't co-exist.  Don't believe I ever said it did.



TheBishop said:


> I'm sorry you make no sense once so ever.  If I do not have free will, I cannot choose christ or unbeleif.  God has chosen it for me and therefore chosen wether I'll burn or not. So what is the point?



Really?  You just above posted that you've chosen disbelief.

You are without excuse.  When you reach the judgement throne, you have no one to blame but yourself.  You've heard the message, you've rejected it.


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 28, 2011)

> until he completely disregarded 2,000 years of church teaching



Didn't Martin Luther do the same thing when he nailed the 95 thesis on the Church door (well, 1500 years at that time)?


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 28, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Yes, I agree with that statement.



It baffles me that someone can acknowledge that and still reconcile it in their minds with the concept of a good god. I don't believe it to be true but if it were it would tell me that your god is a monster.




rjcruiser said:


> I don't believe in free will...well...I guess we all have free will to choose sin.  Just not the free will to choose Christ.  We are spiritually dead.  We can't revive ourselves from the dead.  Only the Holy Spirit can do that.



Thank you for the answer.

Doesn't make any sense to me. If people are born into sin and all have sinned and are going to sin where is the choice? Also not sure I understand what you mean by we don't have free will to choose christ when you are at the same time asking us if we have heard of christ and what we choose. Either way does a system in which the vast majority of humans who live long enough to make their own choices in life will end up burning forever while all of those who didn't live long enough to make any choices at all will be in paradise through no doing or choosing of their own strike you as a moral system?





rjcruiser said:


> What I'm saying is that the book does a great job of showing how God can remain just while covering the original sin of those that do not have the mental capacity to understand the gospel message.  And no, it can't be covered in 2 paragraphs.



And I'm content to accept that answer that the child/infant dead go to heaven and that it's just so we can move on to the implications this has for other doctrines like free will. I never needed a long drawn out explanation of why they go to heaven and why it's just. These aren't my beliefs after all, they are yours and others. What I was trying to do was establish an answer whatever it may be so we could continue the discussion from that point.


----------



## centerpin fan (Jul 28, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Didn't Martin Luther do the same thing when he nailed the 95 thesis on the Church door (well, 1500 years at that time)?



1.  Yes, he did.  I didn't say I agreed with Luther, either.

2.  Luther would have had no use for a lightweight like Rob Bell.


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 28, 2011)

> Yes, he did. I didn't say I agreed with Luther, either



Okay, but if you are protestant your faith's doctrine stands on the shoulders of that one action.  Is there a chance 500 years from now many faiths might stand on "love Wins?"


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 28, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Didn't Martin Luther do the same thing when he nailed the 95 thesis on the Church door (well, 1500 years at that time)?



I'd say more like the couple hundred years before he came around....not the entire 1500 years...but that is another discussion.

Actually, JB, you should read through his 95 thesis.  I think you'd be enlightened by them.



centerpin fan said:


> 2.  Luther would have had no use for a lightweight like Rob Bell.



x2


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 28, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> But, if God already knows they won't do it, they are predestined for he11.  He let's it happen anyway?



All knowing and predestination are two totally different subjects. 

Strike out for who so ever will, if you believe in predestination.


----------



## centerpin fan (Jul 28, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Is there a chance 500 years from now many faiths might stand on "love Wins?"



We don't have to wait 500 years.  Universalism has been around for a long time.  Bell is just late to the party.  Since it's a radical position and he leads a big church, it made news.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 28, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Okay, but if you are protestant your faith's doctrine stands on the shoulders of that one action.  Is there a chance 500 years from now many faiths might stand on "love Wins?"



Biblical Christianity stands on the Bible.  Love Wins will never stand on that.


----------



## TheBishop (Jul 28, 2011)

You make absolutely no sense.  You cannot say this



rjcruiser said:


> Yes, I believe in predestination.
> 
> No, predestination and free will can't co-exist.  Don't believe I ever said it did.



Then say this:



> Really?  You just above posted that you've chosen disbelief.
> 
> You are without excuse.  When you reach the judgement throne, you have no one to blame but yourself.  You've heard the message, you've rejected it.



According to you I haven't made any choices.  I do not have the free will to do so.  God made me who I am and has predetermined me into disbelief.  According to you the judgement has already been predetermined.  

So did I choose or did god predetermine my choice? Which is it?


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 28, 2011)

> I think you'd be enlightened by them.



I could read a lot of things, but can only accept those things which make sense (to me) logically.  My point is that Church doctrines, such as predestination, and the way scripture is interpretted, changes over time.  What you believe today may be thought of as "unbiblical" 100 years from now based on contemporary teachings.   Just think "mark of Cain," and you will understand what I am getting at.  I will use your example (and I really am not trying to get into interpretation debates):

Ephesians 1.  If I read it correctly there are two parties: the chosen, and those that believed because they heard (around verse 13).  They were not included until they heard.  How is that predestination?  There are many interpretations which could be implied from that one passage.  This is my problem with religion.  Everybody sees what they want to see, and then proclaims "truth" in the gray areas.  

Many people have trouble logically with a loving God sending his children to burn for eternity for a not making a choice he knew they wouldn't make.  If we are predestined, this is the case.



> Strike out for who so ever will, if you believe in predestination.



??? Not sure I am following you.


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 28, 2011)

> Biblical Christianity stands on the Bible.



Or whatever that Church's particular interpretation of scripture  might be.


----------



## TheBishop (Jul 28, 2011)

No believer wants to touch #99 or 102?


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 28, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Many people have trouble logically with a loving God sending his children to burn for eternity for a not making a choice he knew they wouldn't make.  If we are predestined, this is the case.



Consider those predestined to heaven too. Is everyone that was shoe horned into heaven without living or choosing somehow more deserving?


----------



## centerpin fan (Jul 28, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> No believer wants to touch #99 or 102?



Do you really believe the church should encourage Christian women to abort their babies and thereby assure their salvation?


----------



## TheBishop (Jul 28, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Consider those predestined to heaven too. Is everyone that was shoe horned into heaven without living or choosing somehow more deserving?



I'm still not sure we have a choice atlas, rj has yet to clear that up for me.


----------



## TheBishop (Jul 28, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> Do you really believe the church should encourage Christian women to abort their babies and thereby assure their salvation?



Another good dodge.  I Do not beleive in eternal salvation.  That is why I asked you.  If it would gaurantee your child salvation would you sacrifice yours?


----------



## centerpin fan (Jul 28, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> Another good dodge.  I Do not beleive in eternal salvation.  That is why I asked you.  If it would gaurantee your child salvation would you sacrifice yours?



That's not a dodge.  That was exactly what dexrusjak asked and you said it was a good question.


----------



## tween_the_banks (Jul 28, 2011)

I've asked 3 preachers questions regarding predestination /free will...
No water held.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 28, 2011)

"If your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out. It’s better to enter the Kingdom of God with only one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into he11."

Based on the above is it reasonable to say that it's better for an infant to die and go to heaven then grow up and go to God's everlasting torture chamber?


----------



## stringmusic (Jul 28, 2011)

tween_the_banks said:


> I think it means quite a bit
> Great strategy in dodging  every worthy and rational point and question I brought forth however.



It's not really a dodge, I could ingage every one of your talking points, I don't find it necessary to play the what "if game" alot. Especially when we do not have alot of knowledge on the subject.


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 28, 2011)

> I've asked 3 preachers questions regarding predestination /free will...
> No water held.



Did they tell you that "our finite human minds cannot comprehend God."  That was the wall I kept running into when I started questioning these kinds of things.


----------



## tween_the_banks (Jul 28, 2011)

I personally don't think any of this is necessary lol. I just engage in healthy debate on here to work my mind and maybe learn a thing or two.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 28, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> You make absolutely no sense.  You cannot say this
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I can't?  I just did.  Mankind has a responsibility.  If we knew who was predestined and who wasn't, I'd probably agree with you...but we don't know.



JB0704 said:


> I could read a lot of things, but can only accept those things which make sense (to me) logically.  My point is that Church doctrines, such as predestination, and the way scripture is interpretted, changes over time.  What you believe today may be thought of as "unbiblical" 100 years from now based on contemporary teachings.   Just think "mark of Cain," and you will understand what I am getting at.  I will use your example (and I really am not trying to get into interpretation debates):
> 
> Ephesians 1.  If I read it correctly there are two parties: the chosen, and those that believed because they heard (around verse 13).  They were not included until they heard.  How is that predestination?  There are many interpretations which could be implied from that one passage.  This is my problem with religion.  Everybody sees what they want to see, and then proclaims "truth" in the gray areas.
> 
> Many people have trouble logically with a loving God sending his children to burn for eternity for a not making a choice he knew they wouldn't make.  If we are predestined, this is the case.



Boy...you sure don't like to research things you discuss

Oh...and about the mark of cain...you sound like you were raised in the Mormon faith.



JB0704 said:


> Or whatever that Church's particular interpretation of scripture  might be.



No...Biblical Christianity always remains the same.  Interpretations can change...but that doesn't make them Biblical.



TheBishop said:


> No believer wants to touch #99 or 102?



Really?  No, no person should ever sacrifice their own child.  It goes against so many scriptures.  To even ask the question or contemplate it...rediculous.



atlashunter said:


> Consider those predestined to heaven too. Is everyone that was shoe horned into heaven without living or choosing somehow more deserving?



Nope.  No one is somehow more deserving.  Just like God choosing the Israelites.  Was Abraham somehow more deserving than some other person?  Nope...that's just who God decided to choose.



TheBishop said:


> I'm still not sure we have a choice atlas, rj has yet to clear that up for me.



You have a responsibility.  Obviously, you've rejected the message.  You therefore, have no one to blame but yourself.


----------



## TheBishop (Jul 28, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> That's not a dodge.  That was exactly what dexrusjak asked and you said it was a good question.



So do you care to answer my questions in post 99?


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 28, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Did they tell you that "our finite human minds cannot comprehend God."  That was the wall I kept running into when I started questioning these kinds of things.



Just another way of saying it's best if you don't think too much about what it is we are selling.


----------



## TheBishop (Jul 28, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> I can't?  I just did.  Mankind has a responsibility.  If we knew who was predestined and who wasn't, I'd probably agree with you...but we don't know.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Again you make no sense. Please answer these in your own words

1. Do we have free will?

2. Has our destiney been determined for us?

3. If our destiney has been chosen how do we have a choice?


----------



## TheBishop (Jul 28, 2011)

Rj So you would let your child risk eternal burning even though you know you could prevent it?


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 28, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> Again you make no sense. Please answer these in your own words
> 
> 1. Do we have free will?


No.


			
				Bishop said:
			
		

> 2. Has our destiney been determined for us?


  It's spelled destiny.  Not sure determined is the best term....but God chose me for himself.



			
				Bishop said:
			
		

> 3. If our destiney has been chosen how do we have a choice?


  We have a responsibility.



TheBishop said:


> Rj So you would let your child risk eternal burning even though you know you could prevent it?



Nope.  I wouldn't.


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 28, 2011)

> Boy...you sure don't like to research things you discuss



Tell you what RJ, I have a list of books which have been piling up the last few years that I need to read (been in grad school for a while now and work and have two kids in sports plus hunting season is just around the corner, so recreational reading is out of the question for a bit).  Aside from all the "head banging" icons you have posted, you have been alright.  I will put the 95 thesis on my list and get back with you when I have finished.  It may be next March or so....

But, I was talking discussing historical context, not content.


----------



## centerpin fan (Jul 28, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> So do you care to answer my questions in post 99?



I'm not going to abort a baby to guarantee his salvation ... if that's what you're asking.  

If that's _not_ what you're asking, please restate your question 'cuz it sure sounds like that's what you're asking.


----------



## stringmusic (Jul 28, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> Rj So you would let your child risk eternal burning even though you know you could prevent it?



Do you think the only way to prevent he11 is to kill your child?


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 28, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Tell you what RJ, I have a list of books which have been piling up the last few years that I need to read (been in grad school for a while now and work and have two kids in sports plus hunting season is just around the corner, so recreational reading is out of the question for a bit).  Aside from all the "head banging" icons you have posted, you have been alright.  I will put the 95 thesis on my list and get back with you when I have finished.  It may be next March or so....
> 
> But, I was talking discussing historical context, not content.





just for you

really though, I think people think the 95 theses are some off the wall crazy thoughts.  They're really not.  That is why I asked you if you'd read them....and suggested it.

I'm the same way...not a big reader.  Impatient more so.

Good luck with grad school....not jealous of you in that.

to ya.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 28, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> No...Biblical Christianity always remains the same.  Interpretations can change...but that doesn't make them Biblical.



Sure, most christians no longer kill witches even though the bible still says to. Too bad some African christians didn't get that memo.

Thousands of christian denominations and every one of them can point to scriptures that back up their views and refute others. Looks more like the work of men than a perfect being.




rjcruiser said:


> Really?  No, no person should ever sacrifice their own child.  It goes against so many scriptures.  To even ask the question or contemplate it...rediculous.



You do realize how laughable it is for a christian to say this, right?

You really believe you could give your child a guaranteed ticket into heaven and you wouldn't do it?


----------



## Nicodemus (Jul 28, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Sure, most christians no longer kill witches even though the bible still says to. Too bad some African christians didn't get that memo.
> 
> Thousands of christian denominations and every one of them can point to scriptures that back up their views and refute others. Looks more like the work of men than a perfect being.
> 
> ...





I am not fixin` to get into a debate with you, but I am askin` you, point blank, just exactly what do you mean by this question? 

Make your answer short and understandable.


----------



## TheBishop (Jul 28, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> I'm not going to abort a baby to guarantee his salvation ... if that's what you're asking.
> 
> If that's _not_ what you're asking, please restate your question 'cuz it sure sounds like that's what you're asking.



So you do not love your child enough to give them eternal bliss, help them avoid all pain and suffering, and gaurntee their entrance to heaven?


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 28, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> You do realize how laughable it is for a christian to say this, right?
> 
> You really believe you could give your child a guaranteed ticket into heaven and you wouldn't do it?



Nope...not laughable at all.

Prov 22:6
Train up a child in the way he should go, Even when he is old he will not depart from it


See...if I as a parent do my part, I don't have to worry about anything else.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 28, 2011)

I've got a lot more to read, but I thought I had to respond to this first. 

Why must I read a book when I've read most of the bible? Are the BOOKS you're talking about also divinely inspired?  If so, when will they make it between the same leather as the others? Why do I need to read those BOOKS, when it should be in the bible already? Am I not then reading interperetations of the bible? 

He knows why that won't work? You're saying he knows and you don't, right? If so, why can't he make it work? I'm sure an all powerful god could come up with  a way.



Madman said:


> It would be of great benefit if you would get some really good BOOKS on historic Christian theology and study them.  The internet and blogosphere are mainly just people’s opinions and feelings.
> 
> For instance if I were in charge I would like for everyone to get along and live together in heaven, but I am not in charge and God, who is in charge, knows why that will not work.  That is why He is in charge and I am not and I am glad for that.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 28, 2011)

RJ,

Despite the tap dancing I have to give you credit for taking on the question and making a stand for predestination even with all its warts. You're still contradicting yourself by laying responsibility on those who are predestined but at least you took a position and put some answers out there.

None of your brethren that I know to use the free will position regularly in other discussions have yet touched this one.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 28, 2011)

Nicodemus said:


> I am not fixin` to get into a debate with you, but I am askin` you, point blank, just exactly what do you mean by this question?
> 
> Make your answer short and understandable.



Nic, their hatred towards Christianity has made them lose all common sense.  I think it is pretty plain as day what they are implying/saying.



TheBishop said:


> So you do not love your child enough to give them eternal bliss, help them avoid all pain and suffering, and gaurntee their entrance to heaven?



See my above response.

Really, you guys are sick to even think something like child sacrifice is somehow Biblical and righteous.


----------



## TheBishop (Jul 28, 2011)

Nicodemus said:


> I am not fixin` to get into a debate with you, but I am askin` you, point blank, just exactly what do you mean by this question?
> 
> Make your answer short and understandable.



Let me help you with this nic.  It is my understanding that most beleivers feel that those that are incapable of choosing christ, when they perish get a free pass to heaven.  If that infact is the case then why as a parent would you risk them not making to heaven by letting them grow up an not choose christ? See post 99 for futher detail.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 28, 2011)

Nicodemus said:


> I am not fixin` to get into a debate with you, but I am askin` you, point blank, just exactly what do you mean by this question?
> 
> Make your answer short and understandable.



It's a hypothetical. If you really believed that aborting or killing a child would guarantee them everlasting life and spare them the risk of everlasting torment, what would you do? I also ask it in light of the scripture I quoted where Jesus says it's better to gouge out your eye to get into heaven than go to the lake of fire.


----------



## Nicodemus (Jul 28, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> It's a hypothetical. If you really believed that aborting or killing a child would guarantee them everlasting life and spare them the risk of everlasting torment, what would you do? I also ask it in light of the scripture I quoted where Jesus says it's better to gouge out your eye to get into heaven than go to the lake of fire.





It looks like child sacrifice to me. Is it?


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 28, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> RJ,
> 
> Despite the tap dancing I have to give you credit for taking on the question and making a stand for predestination even with all its warts. You're still contradicting yourself by laying responsibility on those who are predestined but at least you took a position and put some answers out there.
> 
> None of your brethren that I know to use the free will position regularly in other discussions have yet touched this one.



I don't know all the answers.  And at times it can seem contradictive.  I'm comfortable realizing that I'm finite and can't understand an infinite being (unlike some on here).

At the end of the day, I know I'm going to be held responsible for the life/faith/family that God has given to me.  I've got a responsibility to live my life for Christ and to point my family and others towards Him.

As long as I do that, I know I'll be rewarded.

Now...as I asked before...what are you going to do?


----------



## TheBishop (Jul 28, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> No.
> 
> We have a responsibility.



If we don't have free will, we don't have a choice, if we dont have a choice we cannot have a responsibility.  God has chosen for us, therefore before we were created there were those who were determined to burn and there were those who were determined for salvation.  You cannot have it both ways RJ.  

1. Predestination=God chose all for us and all our actions his responsibility.

2. No Predestination/ Free will= we have a choice and life is our responsibility. 

Choose one.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 28, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Nope...not laughable at all.
> 
> Prov 22:6
> Train up a child in the way he should go, Even when he is old he will not depart from it
> ...



You know what I was getting at. Jesus himself was a child sacrifice according to christians.


----------



## stringmusic (Jul 28, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> If we don't have free will, we don't have a choice, if we dont have a choice we cannot have a responsibility.  God has chosen for us, therefore before we were created there were those who were determined to burn and there were those who were determined for salvation.  You cannot have it both ways RJ.
> 
> 1. Predestination=God chose all for us and all our actions his responsibility.
> 
> ...



God chose us knowing what our choice would ultimately be?


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 28, 2011)

Nicodemus said:


> It looks like child sacrifice to me. Is it?



To say it is a sacrifice would be suggesting it had some redemptive purpose. That's not what I am saying. I'm just saying it would be a calculated way to spare your child from any chance they might go to the wrong place. It seems to me that anything would be worth saving someone you love (especially your own child)from that, even if it meant taking on the sin of murder.

Committing a murder in order to save people from eternal torment isn't exactly a foreign concept to christians is it?


----------



## Nicodemus (Jul 28, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> To say it is a sacrifice would be suggesting it had some redemptive purpose. That's not what I am saying. I'm just saying it would be a calculated way to spare your child from any chance they might go to the wrong place. It seems to me that anything would be worth saving someone you love (especially your own child)from that, even if it meant taking on the sin of murder.
> 
> Committing a murder in order to save people from eternal torment isn't exactly a foreign concept to christians is it?





A simple yes or no answer will be fine.


----------



## centerpin fan (Jul 28, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> So you do not love your child enough to give them eternal bliss, help them avoid all pain and suffering, and gaurntee their entrance to heaven?



For the third time ... I am not going to kill a baby.


----------



## centerpin fan (Jul 28, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Really, you guys are sick to even think something like child sacrifice is somehow Biblical and righteous.



Ditto.


----------



## stringmusic (Jul 28, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Committing a murder in order to save people from eternal torment isn't exactly a foreign concept to christians is it?



Christ or Christians? 

Do you have any verses come to mind regarding this?


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 28, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> I don't know all the answers.  And at times it can seem contradictive.  I'm comfortable realizing that I'm finite and can't understand an infinite being (unlike some on here).
> 
> At the end of the day, I know I'm going to be held responsible for the life/faith/family that God has given to me.  I've got a responsibility to live my life for Christ and to point my family and others towards Him.
> 
> ...



Life would be pretty boring if we always agreed on everything. I've enjoyed the conversation.

Concerning what I am going to do let me put it to you like this...

Hindus think that its a sin to kill or eat cows and that by committing this sin you'll end up paying for it with a long period of suffering in Naraka after you die. Now if I believed that was true I might stop eating beef, maybe. But I think it's complete nonsense as I suspect you probably do too. The claims of Christians fall into the same category of nonsense for me. What am I going to do? Enjoy the ride while it lasts, try to help others do the same, and be glad for it when the ride comes to an end.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 28, 2011)

Nicodemus said:


> A simple yes or no answer will be fine.



That would be a no.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 28, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Christ or Christians?
> 
> Do you have any verses come to mind regarding this?



John 3:16


----------



## stringmusic (Jul 28, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> John 3:16



Is that a command for Christians to kill for any reason?

BTW, Jesus didn't die on a cross so He could go to heaven. He was a sin less sacrifice so we would not have to kill our children and others to ensure heaven.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 28, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> If we don't have free will, we don't have a choice, if we dont have a choice we cannot have a responsibility.  God has chosen for us, therefore before we were created there were those who were determined to burn and there were those who were determined for salvation.  You cannot have it both ways RJ.
> 
> 1. Predestination=God chose all for us and all our actions his responsibility.
> 
> ...



Um...like I said.  I believe God has chosen certain individuals....as it says in Ephesians.

I also that we as mankind, have a responsibility to live our lives for the Lord.

A coin has two sides.  I choose the coin...not just heads or tails 



atlashunter said:


> Life would be pretty boring if we always agreed on everything. I've enjoyed the conversation.
> 
> Concerning what I am going to do let me put it to you like this...
> 
> Hindus think that its a sin to kill or eat cows and that by committing this sin you'll end up paying for it with a long period of suffering in Naraka after you die. Now if I believed that was true I might stop eating beef I might stop eating beef, maybe. But I think it's complete nonsense as I suspect you probably do too. The claims of Christians fall into the same category of nonsense for me. What am I going to do? Enjoy the ride while it lasts, try to help others do the same, and be glad for it when the ride comes to an end.



Yes, I believe Hinduism is hogwash.  Enjoy the ride.  Just know that as someone who believes in predestination, I believe you're responsible for your choices.  

I don't want people to think that as a person who believes in Predestination, that I'm excusing personal responsibility or behavior.  I'm not a "let go and let God" believer.  God has given us a mind/body to use.  If we don't honor God, He'll find another tool to use.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 28, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Is that a command for Christians to kill for any reason?



No and I wasn't suggesting that. Let's move on.


----------



## dexrusjak (Jul 28, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Nope...not laughable at all.
> 
> Prov 22:6
> Train up a child in the way he should go, Even when he is old he will not depart from it
> ...



Yeah, about that....I (and many others) was raised by devout Christian parents and taught to believe in Jesus, god, etc.  When I grew old I departed from it.  So this verse might make you feel good, but it means nothing in reality.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 28, 2011)

dexrusjak said:


> Yeah, about that....I (and many others) was raised by devout Christian parents and taught to believe in Jesus, god, etc.  When I grew old I departed from it.  So this verse might make you feel good, but it means nothing in reality.



Really?  I don't see that.  I think it has a bigger implication on you and your parents than you might want to believe.


----------



## dexrusjak (Jul 28, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Really, you guys are sick to even think something like child sacrifice is somehow Biblical and righteous.



1. Nobody is talking about child sacrifice.  The question pertains to abortion.

2. If the Bible is true, no one has killed as many children as god (Exodus 12:29 for starters).  How can a righteous god do something that is not righteous?


----------



## dexrusjak (Jul 28, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Really?  I don't see that.  I think it has a bigger implication on you and your parents than you might want to believe.



Interesting observation from someone who doesn't know me or my parents.  Guess you'll just have to take my word for it.  I was raised by Christian parents to be a Christian.  I grew up, moved out, read books, took classes, rejected Christianity.  I don't know what to tell you.  It happened just like that.


----------



## TheBishop (Jul 28, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> I don't want people to think that as a person who believes in Predestination, that I'm excusing personal responsibility or behavior.  I'm not a "let go and let God" believer.  God has given us a mind/body to use.  If we don't honor God, He'll find another tool to use.



What I have been try to tell you the whole time is this statement is a complete contradiction.  And it makes no sense. 

You cannot believe everything is predetermined and still believe we have a choice. If we have no free will, we can't make a free choice. God has already done that for us.  How if we have no free choice can we assume responsibilty.  God has determeined the outcome he made the choice, it is sole responsibility.  If we have any ability, even in the smallest of detail, to change the outcome of our afterlife, then the is no such thing as predestination.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 28, 2011)

dexrusjak said:


> 1. Nobody is talking about child sacrifice.  The question pertains to abortion.



No...it was about child sacrifice.  Read it again.  You or some of your fellow colleagues asked about why a Christian wouldn't kill their own child to ensure salvation.

That is child sacrifice....not abortion.




			
				dexrusjak said:
			
		

> 2. If the Bible is true, no one has killed as many children as god (Exodus 12:29 for starters).  How can a righteous god do something that is not righteous?



How was that unrighteous?  Aren't all sinners deserving of death?  

If you answer No to the second question, you don't have a proper view of sin.



dexrusjak said:


> Interesting observation from someone who doesn't know me or my parents.  Guess you'll just have to take my word for it.  I was raised by Christian parents to be a Christian.  I grew up, moved out, read books, took classes, rejected Christianity.  I don't know what to tell you.  It happened just like that.



No...things just don't happen.  There is always cause and affect.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 28, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> What I have been try to tell you the whole time is this statement is a complete contradiction.  And it makes no sense.
> 
> You cannot believe everything is predetermined and still believe we have a choice. If we have no free will, we can't make a free choice. God has already done that for us.  How if we have no free choice can we assume responsibilty.  God has determeined the outcome he made the choice, it is sole responsibility.  If we have any ability, even in the smallest of detail, to change the outcome of our afterlife, then the is no such thing as predestination.



Why can't I believe that God has predetermined my eternity with Him and I still have a responsibility?


----------



## dexrusjak (Jul 28, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> No...it was about child sacrifice.  Read it again.  You or some of your fellow colleagues asked about why a Christian wouldn't kill their own child to ensure salvation.
> 
> That is child sacrifice....not abortion.



"Killing" a fetus is called abortion, not child sacrifice.




rjcruiser said:


> How was that unrighteous?  Aren't all sinners deserving of death?
> 
> If you answer No to the second question, you don't have a proper view of sin.



True of false?  It is righteous to kill a person.



rjcruiser said:


> No...things just don't happen.  There is always cause and affect.



Of course.  

Cause = I found evidence to indicate that Christianity is a bunch of bunk.  
Effect = I abandoned my faith.

This has zero to do with how my parents raised me.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 28, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Why can't I believe that God has predetermined my eternity with Him and I still have a responsibility?



Is your destination affected by whether or not you meet that responsibility?


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 28, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> How was that unrighteous?  Aren't all sinners deserving of death?
> 
> If you answer No to the second question, you don't have a proper view of sin.



Sorry but this takes us back to the original question. On the one hand it is righteous for God to kill an infant on the basis that it is a sinner deserving of death but on the other the infant goes to heaven? That dog don't hunt.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 28, 2011)

dexrusjak said:


> True of false?  It is righteous to kill a person.



God?  True.

Me?  False.



			
				dexrusjak said:
			
		

> This has zero to do with how my parents raised me.



They had no influence on your life?  



atlashunter said:


> Is your destination affected by whether or not you meet that responsibility?



Not sure I can answer that question.  God chose me, and I'm living for Him.  He started the work and will finish the work.  So....my destination can't be changed.

But, I can't just sit back and relax.  That would be sinful of me.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 28, 2011)

dexrusjak said:


> Interesting observation from someone who doesn't know me or my parents.  Guess you'll just have to take my word for it.  I was raised by Christian parents to be a Christian.  I grew up, moved out, read books, took classes, rejected Christianity.  I don't know what to tell you.  It happened just like that.



Same here. I am preceded by 3 generations of pastors. Grew up steeped in it.

However... you and I are the exception to the rule. That verse from Proverbs usually turns out to be true. Without childhood indoctrination you'd have a lot fewer religious people.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 28, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Sorry but this takes us back to the original question. On the one hand it is righteous for God to kill an infant on the basis that it is a sinner deserving of death but on the other the infant goes to heaven? That dog don't hunt.



And there in lies the purpose of reading the book 

Short synopsis.  They are called innocents in the OT and in the NT.  God, through His mercy, covers them based on this.  Need to find the book again...it isn't large, so I might have trouble finding it   It's been about 5 years since I read it....but that was the main point.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 28, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Not sure I can answer that question.  God chose me, and I'm living for Him.  He started the work and will finish the work.  So....my destination can't be changed.
> 
> But, I can't just sit back and relax.  That would be sinful of me.



So do you not have a choice to turn back to a sinful life or would it make no change in your destination if you did?


----------



## dexrusjak (Jul 28, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> God?  True.
> 
> Me?  False.



That makes absolutely no sense.



rjcruiser said:


> They had no influence on your life?



Certainly they did.  They influenced me to be a Christian, which I was for years before rejecting Christianity.


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 28, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> Another caveat to this: If in commiting the ultimate act of selflessness by relenquishing your own salvation for anothers, shouldn't you in turn earn your salvation?


It wasnt designed to earn, its a gift. Simple enough.



TheBishop said:


> I think it is a good question.  Would you as a parent condem yourself if you could avoid your childs condemnation? Its the ultimate sacrifice. Your eternal pursecution for your childs eternal salvation.  Do you not love your child enough to give up your ertenal bliss so that they may have theirs? I would do it without hesitation IF I thought that could be accomplished (which I don't).


I guess this explains the unimaginable, a parent killing their own child.  



TheBishop said:


> No believer wants to touch #99 or 102?


 Believers dont think up garbage like that


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 28, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> So do you not have a choice to turn back to a sinful life or would it make no change in your destination if you did?



Jude 24-25

24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, 25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and [t]forever. Amen. 



Philippians 1:6
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.



If I truly love Christ, why would I ever turn my back to him?


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 28, 2011)

dexrusjak said:


> That makes absolutely no sense..



Why is that?

God is the only one who has given life.  He is the only one who has the authority to take it away.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 28, 2011)

dexrusjak said:


> That makes absolutely no sense.



Divine command theory. If God does it or commands it then it is by definition righteous. Doesn't take much imagination to see where this leads.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 28, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> If I truly love Christ, why would I ever turn my back to him?



Saying you would never choose to doesn't answer the question. The question is could you (and we already know that people can and have for whatever reason) and what, if any, would the consequences be for doing so?


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 28, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Saying you would never choose to doesn't answer the question. The question is could you (and we already know that people can and have for whatever reason) and what, if any, would the consequences be for doing so?



I do not know the future.  I do know that my love and commitment to Christ are real.  I sin on a daily basis and for this, I know he is not pleased.  However, as I've posted above with scripture, He will not let go of me.  He will not give up on me.  For that, I'm eternally grateful and eternally secure.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 28, 2011)

tween_the_banks said:


> Honestly guys, if you were a God just sitting lonesome in the nothingness, and you decided to entertain yourself by creating creatures in your image one day,not to simply live or anything, but to praise you...wouldn't you feel a little vain?
> And suddenly very shortly after their creation they break your only rule? Is that not foreshadowing of what's to come of the little project of yours?
> But you decided to heat things up, you enlighten them and tell them if they don't accept you as their Lord,that they'll burn for eternity...
> Wouldn't you, after having to send a few of these living creatures that you created to this bad bad place, feel the need to just call the whole thing off? I mean really?
> ...



Not only that, but slip the Jesus thing in 3000 years after you created humans. One set of rules for the first 3000 years...insert Jesus.... new set of rules for the next 2000 years. It SCREAMS man-made!!!!!


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 28, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Same here. I am preceded by 3 generations of pastors. Grew up steeped in it.
> 
> However... you and I are the exception to the rule. That verse from Proverbs usually turns out to be true. Without childhood indoctrination you'd have a lot fewer religious people.



My parents aren't perfect, I understand that.. heck they are CHRISTIANS, so they're definitely no where near close      They did however do what they could to raise me to be one.. and I rejected it before I moved out.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 28, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Yes, I agree with that statement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




(Raised Hand)Oooh Ooooh Ooooh Mr. Kotter! Mr. Kotter!

 To the people that do not believe that Christ IS our savior, It is not a simple this or that choice. It is like asking you "Do you want to choose your sin and a life of unbelief or do you want to accept Buddha as your Savior?" Then I'll proceed to constantly prod you for an answer to a question that does not pertain to your beliefs.

Your question is loaded towards believers, not non-believers.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 28, 2011)

BUT, since you're chosen for your sin to be cleansed, you COULD sit back and relax?

I used to think you were on point with what I was taught... but not anymore.. May I ask what religion you are? Just wondering.



rjcruiser said:


> Not sure I can answer that question.  God chose me, and I'm living for Him.  He started the work and will finish the work.  So....my destination can't be changed.
> 
> But, I can't just sit back and relax.  That would be sinful of me.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 28, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> My parents aren't perfect, I understand that.. heck they are CHRISTIANS, so they're definitely no where near close      They did however do what they could to raise me to be one.. and I rejected it before I moved out.



Took me many more years than that and to be honest I'm further from perfection than they are, especially my grandfather. I don't think I'll ever be half the man he was. He was just a fine man all around and as it turns out he was a strong believer to the end. But I'm convinced he still would have been a fine man even if he hadn't believed in Jesus and there is no way someone like that would deserve to be thrown into a lake of fire just because they didn't believe. No way.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 28, 2011)

I'm not saying anyone should be thrown in to the lake of fire. What I was talking about with my parents not being perfect "becase" they are christians was partially a joke, but I have seen them do some REALLY dumb things that christianity made them feel ok with. I mean DUMB things. Maybe I dislike them a little bit for it, but burn them forever, nah.


----------



## dexrusjak (Jul 28, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Why is that?
> 
> God is the only one who has given life.  He is the only one who has the authority to take it away.



So god is not good because he does good things.  He's good because by god he's god and he says so?  Really?  

God kills lots of Egyptian children and he's good.  Hitler kills lots of Jewish children and he's evil.  Me no comprende.


----------



## TheBishop (Jul 28, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Why can't I believe that God has predetermined my eternity with Him and I still have a responsibility?



What responsibility would there be if it is already been determined? Your life is going to happen exactly as god has it planned out for you, you don't have a choice. Niether a wrong one or right one. Responsibility is living with the choices you freely make, if you cannot freely make them then you do not own them, they are not your reponsibility.

If you have no say in the matter it is not your responsibility. I do not know how to put it any clearer.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 28, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> BUT, since you're chosen for your sin to be cleansed, you COULD sit back and relax?
> 
> I used to think you were on point with what I was taught... but not anymore.. May I ask what religion you are? Just wondering.



I'm a Christian, just like those in the book of Acts.

Oh...and no, you can't just sit back and relax.  Why would anyone sit back and relax?

I know it is a little long..more than 2 paragraphs...but read this chapter from Romans.  I believe it says it best.

Romans 6

Believers Are Dead to Sin, Alive to God

 1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.
 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.



dexrusjak said:


> So god is not good because he does good things.  He's good because by god he's god and he says so?  Really?
> 
> God kills lots of Egyptian children and he's good.  Hitler kills lots of Jewish and he's evil.  Me no comprende.



God is good because he is God.  Hitler was a man.  Like I said before, God creates life, he can take it away too.



TheBishop said:


> What responsibility would there be if it is already been determined? Your life is going to happen exactly as god has it planned out for you, you don't have a choice. Niether a wrong one or right one. Responsibility is living with the choices you freely make, if you cannot freely make them then you do not own them, they are not your reponsibility.
> 
> If you have no say in the matter it is not your responsibility. I do not know how to put it any clearer.



God chooses, man has a responsibility.  If those two are in congruent in your mind, that is fine.  To me, they're not.

I'll ask again, as I think you're the only one who's not answered.  It really is a simple question...that has eternal consequences.


Do you want to choose your sin and a life of unbelief or do you want to accept Christ as your Lord and Savior?


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 28, 2011)

It's been like the call to worship....

I never answered... I don't choose anyone as my lord and savior. I do choose unbelief from what you believe. If you call that choosing my sin that's fine with me.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 28, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> I'm a Christian, just like those in the book of Acts.
> 
> Oh...and no, you can't just sit back and relax.  Why would anyone sit back and relax?
> 
> ...



See post #204 RJ. To YOU there is a choice and those are YOUR two options. It doesn't work that way for non-believers.
I'll ask you again, Which do you choose....A life of Sin and Unbelief or accept Buddha as your savior?
Can you see what your asking us? 

In one post you say because of what it says in the Bible that you believe our lives are predetermined, then in the next breath you say we have a choice. It cannot be both ways. If predetermination is the way then we are all doing exactly as we were planned to do. Every action good bad and otherwise is going according to plan. Every conflict on this planet was to happen. Every loss of life for every reason was known ahead of time. As I type I have no control of what I am writing because it was already meant to be....if I change my mind now and write something else.....it really would not be my doing anyway. It's time you realize that the bible is chock full of verses that counter and contradict the others. It tries to cover all bases by having it's believers try to make sense of the senseless. Many times on here I see the smartest answer given by believers and it is  "I don't know". Nobody does because when the answer is found there is always a direct opposite answer found in scripture elsewhere. Some of us take it for what it is and others talk in circles by using it.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 28, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I'll ask you again, Which do you choose....A life of Sin and Unbelief or accept Buddha as your savior?
> Can you see what your asking us?



I have no problem answering that.  Sorry..missed the point of your earlier post.

I'll choose a life of unbelief when it comes to Buddha.



			
				bullethead said:
			
		

> In one post you say because of what it says in the Bible that you believe our lives are predetermined, then in the next breath you say we have a choice. It cannot be both ways. If predetermination is the way then we are all doing exactly as we were planned to do. Every action good bad and otherwise is going according to plan. Every conflict on this planet was to happen. Every loss of life for every reason was known ahead of time. As I type I have no control of what I am writing because it was already meant to be....if I change my mind now and write something else.....it really would not be my doing anyway. It's time you realize that the bible is chock full of verses that counter and contradict the others. It tries to cover all bases by having it's believers try to make sense of the senseless. Many times on here I see the smartest answer given by believers and it is  "I don't know". Nobody does because when the answer is found there is always a direct opposite answer found in scripture elsewhere. Some of us take it for what it is and others talk in circles by using it.



And I'd disagree with your take on the Bible.  I see the passages working together to give a better explanation of whatever it is.  Rather than opposing forces, scripture works together.  I understand your position though...you've rejected its message.  You think it is full of error.  I'm fine with that.  Just don't want you to somehow blame God for your disbelief.  You have the opportunity to change that.  Whether you will or not is up to you.


----------



## dexrusjak (Jul 28, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> I'll choose a life of unbelief when it comes to Buddha.



Why?


----------



## bullethead (Jul 28, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> I have no problem answering that.  Sorry..missed the point of your earlier post.
> 
> I'll choose a life of unbelief when it comes to Buddha.


Then You can see why we choose the same.





rjcruiser said:


> And I'd disagree with your take on the Bible.  I see the passages working together to give a better explanation of whatever it is.  Rather than opposing forces, scripture works together.  I understand your position though...you've rejected its message.  You think it is full of error.  I'm fine with that.  Just don't want you to somehow blame God for your disbelief.  You have the opportunity to change that.  Whether you will or not is up to you.



You have to understand I blame the lack of god for my disbelief. In your mind I have the opportunity to change that, In my mind I don't.
It goes back to being predetermined.( personally I don't think for one second anything is predetermined) But for arguments sake lets say that it is true then I absolutely CANNOT, No How, No Way make a choice and change an outcome of something that is already written in stone. If you say your god predetermined everything then I am doing EXACTLY as he wants. You should be thrilled.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 28, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> I'm a Christian, just like those in the book of Acts.
> 
> Oh...and no, you can't just sit back and relax.  Why would anyone sit back and relax?



I'm not asking why, but since it's set that you are in his light, COULD you, or anyone chosen, just sit back and relax and still get your eternal life?

I, personally, enjoy relaxing.


----------



## Buck Trax (Jul 28, 2011)

RJ, 

Just curious, do you believe in predestination by default of God's omniscience, or is there another reason(s)?


----------



## bullethead (Jul 29, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> I have no problem answering that.  Sorry..missed the point of your earlier post.
> 
> I'll choose a life of unbelief when it comes to Buddha



Take a second a think about how easy that was to say because in your heart and mind you do not believe Buddha to be true, let alone your Savior. In your mind he is not even an option so your choice is not even really a choice, it's a no-brainer. At best it is a hypothetical scenario.

That is exactly how some others feel about the choice you say we have.


----------



## stringmusic (Jul 29, 2011)

bullethead said:


> See post #204 RJ. To YOU there is a choice and those are YOUR two options. It doesn't work that way for non-believers.
> I'll ask you again, Which do you choose....A life of Sin and Unbelief or accept Buddha as your savior?
> Can you see what your asking us?



If Buddha was a savior, that might actually be a choice, Jesus Christ is the only Savior. Buddha never even claimed to be a such.

Jesus as the Savior is the most important aspect of Christianity in which it also sets it apart from all other religions.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 29, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> If Buddha was a savior, that might actually be a choice, Jesus Christ is the only Savior. Buddha never even claimed to be a such.
> 
> Jesus as the Savior is the most important aspect of Christianity in which it also sets it apart from all other religions.



What you state is ONLY true to the people who believe like you do. The "choice" is not even a option for those that believe differently. 
Instead of overlooking the real point and using a technicality to try to change the meaning of the  point...stick to the point.
You can substitute ANY one of the various figures throughout history that have claimed to be the Savior. Start with Koresh and work your way back if you like. Find one that fits and you will see that you(believers) reject them all the same way and for the same reasons we reject yours. POINT: You as well as us have a set of beliefs in our minds and trying to use those beliefs to persuade the other is useless. Your argument immediately falls apart when you say Jesus Christ is the only Savior. That may be true in your mind, but you are going to have to find something else if you want to convince me.


----------



## fish hawk (Jul 29, 2011)

What tha....Congrats no youtube video this time


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 29, 2011)

RJ and String, I should have pointed this out yesterday, but I thought previous posts were clear.  If there was a "belief scale" I would be closer to you guys than the atheists and agnostics on here.  But, I do think that any belief system should be defended by fact or logic.  You might agree (1 Peter 3:15).  




> God chose me, and I'm living for Him. He started the work and will finish the work. So....my destination can't be changed.



What about the unchosen and condemned?  What if you were predestined for he11?  Could you change that through belief?  How does predestination work towards heaven, but not towards he11?  If eternity is already scripted, a person will never be able to change their destiny.  How does God choose those for heaven but those who go to he11 choose it themselves?




> You have the opportunity to change that.



No he doesn't if your concept of predestiny is correct.  If one of the atheists changes their minds and becomes a believer, it is not a circumstance of acting on opportunity.  It is the script playing itself out and you cannot influence it one way or the other through evangelism (which I have to admit your attempts on here are admirable).


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 29, 2011)

dexrusjak said:


> Why?



Really?  Are you really that slow that you have to ask me why I don't believe in Buddha?



bullethead said:


> Then You can see why we choose the same.



I understand and didn't expect anything different.



			
				bullethead said:
			
		

> You have to understand I blame the lack of god for my disbelief. In your mind I have the opportunity to change that, In my mind I don't.
> It goes back to being predetermined.( personally I don't think for one second anything is predetermined) But for arguments sake lets say that it is true then I absolutely CANNOT, No How, No Way make a choice and change an outcome of something that is already written in stone. If you say your god predetermined everything then I am doing EXACTLY as he wants. You should be thrilled.



What if your belief is something that God has chosen and predestined for you and you just don't know it yet?



TripleXBullies said:


> I'm not asking why, but since it's set that you are in his light, COULD you, or anyone chosen, just sit back and relax and still get your eternal life?
> 
> I, personally, enjoy relaxing.



Not sure...but I don't think so.  Re-read the passage I posted above...Romans 6.  Also, there are many other passages that show we are to live our lives as a living and holy sacrifice...acceptable to God...and I just don't see how doing nothing for God is acceptable.




Buck Trax said:


> RJ,
> 
> Just curious, do you believe in predestination by default of God's omniscience, or is there another reason(s)?



Read Ephesians 1....there's a bunch of other passages too...but that is pretty clear to me.  Also, his omniscience and sovereignty do play a role as well.



bullethead said:


> Take a second a think about how easy that was to say because in your heart and mind you do not believe Buddha to be true, let alone your Savior. In your mind he is not even an option so your choice is not even really a choice, it's a no-brainer. At best it is a hypothetical scenario.
> 
> That is exactly how some others feel about the choice you say we have.




Again...I understand where you and others that have rejected the notion that Christ is the only way are coming from.

Why I asked the question I did is that often people have a warped sense of Predestination.  That we are robots and have no control over our own lives.  That those that believe in predestination can blame God for all things that happen and can sit back, enjoy life and do nothing.  Or say a prayer, throw a pine cone in the fire, walk the aisle and never darken the door of the church again....but go on saying they're saved.

That is not predestination.  God has chosen....it clearly states that in scripture.  But we have a responsibility to respond....it clearly states that in scripture.

I want to make sure that you are comfortable with choosing a different way.  A way that you know in your heart is not the true way.  You obviously wouldn't be continuing to search in this forum if you knew the path you had chosen was the true way.  Keep searching.  Don't settle for just not knowing....and may you find the truth that you desire.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 29, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> That is not predestination.  God has chosen....it clearly states that in scripture.  But we have a responsibility to respond....it clearly states that in scripture.



Therein lies the contradiction as we've been trying to point out. You never did answer this question but instead reaffirmed your faith. I'm thinking you probably see the contradiction because you were walked right up to the edge of it. You can only have a responsibility if you have a choice to turn away from sin or not which you have said we do. If that is true then you aren't predestined. You have a choice to make. The miscarriages, aborted, still born, and those who died as small children from disease, starvation, etc didn't have that choice.



> Saying you would never choose to doesn't answer the question. The question is could you (and we already know that people can and have for whatever reason) and what, if any, would the consequences be for doing so?


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 29, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Therein lies the contradiction as we've been trying to point out. You never did answer this question but instead reaffirmed your faith. I'm thinking you probably see the contradiction because you were walked right up to the edge of it. You can only have a responsibility if you have a choice to turn away from sin or not which you have said we do. If that is true then you aren't predestined. You have a choice to make. The miscarriages, aborted, still born, and those who died as small children from disease, starvation, etc didn't have that choice.



But hypotheticals don't work in real life.  You're just asking more hypotheticals.

Can God make a rock so big he can't lift it?

God chose me.  He predestined me.  I follow him...and continue to choose to do so.


----------



## TheBishop (Jul 29, 2011)

No. I think no matter how many time I've said it, and everyone else says it, RJ will not get his contradiction. I don't even understand how he thinks it sounds right in his own mind.  

Rj-Life is predestined but we have a responsibility to do exactly what god has already determined us to do, even though we have no free will or choice to do anything else.  God has already picked who will burn and who will not. Some will choose not to burn only if god chooses that for them, but its still their responsibility God chooses for them. 

How does this not sound utterly ridiculous to you?


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 29, 2011)

Your choice to follow through with your responsibilities as being chosen were already going to happen though. If one of us decides that atheism isn't the way any more, it was supposed to happen. There was no responsibility to change, it was going to happen if it was going to happen.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 29, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> No. I think no matter how many time I've said it, and everyone else says it, RJ will not get his contradiction. I don't even understand how he thinks it sounds right in his own mind.
> 
> Rj-Life is predestined but we have a responsibility to do exactly what god has already determined us to do, even though we have no free will or choice to do anything else.  God has already picked who will burn and who will not. Some will choose not to burn only if god chooses that for them, but its still their responsibility God chooses for them.
> 
> How does this not sound utterly ridiculous to you?



It may seem as utterly ridiculous to you, but to me, I can see that God predestined me to himself and I have a responsibility now that I've been called to follow him.

I've explained it the way I believe it.  If you don't accept that, well...that is up to you.  I expect it to be foolish to you.

I Cor 1:18  For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing


I honestly think this thread or at least my contribution to the thread has run its course.  I've not tried to by coy or sly in my responses.  They are honest answers.  As I said above, may you find what you are looking for in this life...absolute truth.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 29, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> But hypotheticals don't work in real life.  You're just asking more hypotheticals.
> 
> Can God make a rock so big he can't lift it?
> 
> God chose me.  He predestined me.  I follow him...and continue to choose to do so.



I suppose it depends on the hypothetical rj. I'm not proposing a hypothetical that you yourself haven't already proposed. If someone is capable of choosing to accept Jesus they are capable of rejecting Jesus are they not? If someone is capable of rejecting sin then they must also be capable of not rejecting sin right?

So if you have a responsibility to choose, can your choice have any effect on your destination?


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 29, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> No. I think no matter how many time I've said it, and everyone else says it, RJ will not get his contradiction. I don't even understand how he thinks it sounds right in his own mind.



If he didn't get it he wouldn't be so reluctant to answer.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 29, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> It gets a free pass to heaven without having to pass the free will test. Or to put it another way, that soul was predestined to go to heaven and had no say in the matter. How can this be reconciled by those who adhere to the free will doctrine? Especially in light of how many souls this would equate to? It would mean most of the souls in heaven were predestined to be there and a small minority got there through faith.



Over 200 posts into this thread and we still haven't had any one that believes in free will tackle this question.

The only one that took a stab at it was RJ and that was by denying free will.


----------



## centerpin fan (Jul 29, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Over 200 posts into this thread and we still haven't had any one that believes in free will tackle this question.
> 
> The only one that took a stab at it was RJ and that was by denying free will.



A couple of us "free willers" answered with "I don't know", and you didn't like that answer.  After I wrote that, I got a distinct feeling of deja vu and remembered this thread:

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=600403

You asked similar questions, we gave similar answers, and you were not satisfied there, either.


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 29, 2011)

> Over 200 posts into this thread and we still haven't had any one that believes in free will tackle this question.



I thought the debate was over predestination?




> It would mean most of the souls in heaven were predestined to be there and a small minority got there through faith.



....only if predestination were the case.  Otherwise, it is a case of things happening because of circumstance.  If predestination were the case, then an aborted baby might also go to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- because of his or her predestination.


----------



## TheBishop (Jul 29, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Over 200 posts into this thread and we still haven't had any one that believes in free will tackle this question.
> 
> The only one that took a stab at it was RJ and that was by denying free will.



I still don't understand how someone can deny free will and still say we have a choice, and a responsibility.


----------



## Madman (Jul 29, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Over 200 posts into this thread and we still haven't had any one that believes in free will tackle this question.



Some of us did not want  thrown out.

The OP was answered.  We've been from infants going to he11 to fertilized eggs going to he11 to mothers aborting babies so they can be saved vs. denying Christ and going to he11.

If free will is now the question start another thread.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 29, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I thought the debate was over predestination?



That is the direction it went with RJ. RJ is I think in the minority in the free will vs predestination debate. He hasn't quite completely let go of the free will thing but he did enough to say that we are predestined. That opens up a whole other set of problems that most christians get around by asserting free will doctrine.




JB0704 said:


> ....only if predestination were the case.  Otherwise, it is a case of things happening because of circumstance.  If predestination were the case, then an aborted baby might also go to burn because of his or her predestination.



If predestination is true you could either have the unborn going to one place or the other. Or you could have them all going to heaven which is what some here have said. If that is the case then I pose the question previously quoted concerning free will. If most of the people in heave got a free pass and had no part in choosing to go there then free will at best is an insignificant part of God's master plan. Yet this is the reason so often given for why there is evil in the world.


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 29, 2011)

> Or you could have them all going to heaven which is what some here have said.



...only if they were "chosen."  To get to heaven via predestination, one must be "chosen" (quoting RJ).  IF that is the case, then the aborted fetus was also predestined to be aborted.



> If most of the people in heave got a free pass and had no part in choosing to go there then free will at best is an insignificant part of God's master plan



Why does this "if" equal that "then?"


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 29, 2011)

Madman said:


> Some of us did not want  thrown out.
> 
> The OP was answered.  We've been from infants going to he11 to fertilized eggs going to he11 to mothers aborting babies so they can be saved vs. denying Christ and going to he11.
> 
> If free will is now the question start another thread.



How could you think it off topic when my original question mentioned free will and my second post said this?



atlashunter said:


> So if that is true what does it imply as it relates to original sin and free will?



Also the fertilized egg thing was not a change of topic. I'm talking about all human souls whose earthly life is terminated before they reach the age of being capable of exercising free will, whatever age that might be. That means fertilized eggs that didn't implant, miscarriages, abortions, still births, disease, accidents, murder, natural disasters, etc.


I reposted and quoted the questions multiple times and specifically clarified for you what I was getting at and all you have done to this point is accuse me of changing the topic.

To Centerpin: Sorry if "I don't know" is not a particularly satisfying answer. It would be far easier to accept from people who didn't claim to have the word of God and be in communication with the creator of the universe and have the answers to so many other questions that no mere mortal could know. When you do that you raise the bar for what you should know. For anyone that asserts we have evil and death and destruction in the world and a heaven and hades because of free will this is a valid question. If an assertion or multiple assertions can't be reconciled with reality or if they create logical contradictions then those assertions need to be reconsidered and either revised or abandoned.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 29, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Why does this "if" equal that "then?"



Because it would mean free will only played a part in a small minority of the people who populate heaven. Most would have arrived there without free will having any role at all. If that is true how can someone say this whole exercise with the fall of Adam and original sin and the crucifixion and all the misery and suffering in the world is because God only wants those who choose to be with him?


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 29, 2011)

> If that is true how can someone say this whole exercise with the fall of Adam and original sin and the crucifixion and all the misery and suffering in the world is because God only wants those who choose to be with him?



Ok.  I was having trouble understanding what you were getting at.  You are making an assumption when you say:



> God only wants those who choose to be with him



So, if we are assuming, let's assume there is a benevolent god who loves everybody in the universe, then it would be logical that he would want everybody to be with him.  If a benevolent God wants everybody to be with him, then there could be many aspects to how that is accomplished.  Free-will could be one possible explanation among many.  However, free-will cannot be the only logical explanation.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 29, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Ok.  I was having trouble understanding what you were getting at.  You are making an assumption when you say:



Absolutely. But it isn't my assumption. It's what I've been told here before many times. That God doesn't force us to be with him and wants us to choose.




JB0704 said:


> So, if we are assuming, let's assume there is a benevolent god who loves everybody in the universe, then it would be logical that he would want everybody to be with him.  If a benevolent God wants everybody to be with him, then there could be many aspects to how that is accomplished.  Free-will could be one possible explanation among many.  However, free-will cannot be the only logical explanation.



Free will doesn't accomplish the goal of having everybody with him. It would accomplish the goal of having everybody with him that wanted to be with him assuming of course that everyone has the information and capability at their disposal to make an informed conscious decision. But if you take a peek into heaven and you see most of the people there didn't get there by choosing it kind of shoots down the proposition that that is his goal.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 29, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> I suppose it depends on the hypothetical rj. I'm not proposing a hypothetical that you yourself haven't already proposed. If someone is capable of choosing to accept Jesus they are capable of rejecting Jesus are they not? If someone is capable of rejecting sin then they must also be capable of not rejecting sin right?
> 
> So if you have a responsibility to choose, can your choice have any effect on your destination?



Nope...God first chose us.

Only Christians can reject sin....and yes, once we are Christians, we have a choice to obey or not obey.

No, if you're saved, you're always saved.  See the passages that I gave above.



Really though, the derrogatory and belittling attitude that most of you post towards me and other Christians is somewhat offensive.  You ask questions....but it is as if you don't want answers.  Play nice and you'll get more responses.


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 29, 2011)

> Really though, the derrogatory and belittling attitude that most of you post towards me and other Christians is somewhat offensive



I have been reading this forum for a long time before I participated in it.  This goes both ways.  Not to take sides, but just look up the thread where Bishop went to his daughter's dedication at church if you want to see Christians being offensive.  I have seen them stir the pot in the Christian forums as well. Doesn't it go with the online chat territory?


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 29, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I have been reading this forum for a long time before I participated in it.  This goes both ways.  Not to take sides, but just look up the thread where Bishop went to his daughter's dedication at church if you want to see Christians being offensive.  I have seen them stir the pot in the Christian forums as well. Doesn't it go with the online chat territory?



I see your point...I guess my thought is don't expect too many answers when responses to those answers are derogatory.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 29, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Nope...God first chose us.
> 
> Only Christians can reject sin....and yes, once we are Christians, we have a choice to obey or not obey.
> 
> ...



I'll try to be nicer. I really am trying to understand what it is you are saying.

I understand you consider yourself saved. You've accepted christ, rejected sin, etc. and if you died today you would go to heaven.

The question is, is there anything you could do or choices you could make that would change that outcome? If you changed your mind for some reason and decided to reject christ and live in sin unrepentingly and then you died would your choice have changed the outcome of where you go? And please don't reaffirm your faith or say you would never do that. That's not the question. Change "you" to some other hypothetical person that would or already has done that.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 29, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> I'll try to be nicer. I really am trying to understand what it is you are saying.
> 
> I understand you consider yourself saved. You've accepted christ, rejected sin, etc. and if you died today you would go to heaven.
> 
> The question is, is there anything you could do or choices you could make that would change that outcome? If you changed your mind for some reason and decided to reject christ and live in sin unrepentingly and then you died would your choice have changed the outcome of where you go? And please don't reaffirm your faith or say you would never do that. That's not the question. Change "you" to some other hypothetical person that would or already has done that.



No.  A saved person can't become unsaved.

If saved...always saved.

Does that answer it?


----------



## bullethead (Jul 29, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Nope...God first chose us.
> 
> Only Christians can reject sin....and yes, once we are Christians, we have a choice to obey or not obey.
> 
> ...



RJ, re-read your tagline. 
I have seen the phrases posted by you like: 
"I too also fear your motive is as genuine as a Clinton apology." Post #49
"And when you settle, your level of understanding is equal to your laziness." Post #64
"Your ignorance shows your motive. " Post #79
"Nic, their hatred towards Christianity has made them lose all common sense." Post #162
"Really? Are you really that slow that you have to ask me why I don't believe in Buddha?" Post #223

I think (at least in this thread) that you are the epitome of derogatory and belittlement.  If anyone else has shown that towards you, then you are reaping what you sow.


----------



## Madman (Jul 29, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> How could you think it off topic when my original question mentioned free will and disasters, etc.



Very good then.  Let's clarify if the discussion is only on the doctrine of free will or is predestination included.
Is the question you pose: either/or  
Or is the question: both/and


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 29, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> No.  A saved person can't become unsaved.
> 
> If saved...always saved.
> 
> Does that answer it?



Yes it does. So what that means then is if you at any point in your life become saved there is no going back and no changing your mind. Free will (in terms of determining where you go after death) has at a minimum ended at the point you became saved, if you had it at all. You still have free will to sin or not sin and even to reject christ but whatever you choose isn't going to change your destination.

Sam Kinison comes to mind. He was a born again believer and a preacher that did a complete 180.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 29, 2011)

Madman said:


> Very good then.  Let's clarify if the discussion is only on the doctrine of free will or is predestination included.
> Is the question you pose: either/or
> Or is the question: both/and



Well I guess I left the question open to a predestination answer because I wanted to be sure we were on the same page concerning what happens to the souls in question. But I was expecting the conversation to deal more with free will because I think that tends to be the view held by more christians and especially the ones that give that answer to the problem of evil.

Either way I think you run into problems answering the question of evil in the world. If it's all predestined and you take free will off the table then you take with it that answer to the problem of evil. If you subscribe to the free will view then this issue that I have brought up presents another set of challenges.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 29, 2011)

bullethead said:


> RJ, re-read your tagline.
> I have seen the phrases posted by you like:
> "I too also fear your motive is as genuine as a Clinton apology." Post #49
> "And when you settle, your level of understanding is equal to your laziness." Post #64
> ...



Nice try.  Only the last quote could be construed as derogatory or belittling....and it was in response to a question that he knew the answer to already.

I don't mind  or  a little, but it does get old when you're asked the same question over and over and over again.  You give the same answer over and over and over again...and you are told that you "don't get it" or that "you can't believe that." 



atlashunter said:


> Yes it does. So what that means then is if you at any point in your life become saved there is no going back and no changing your mind. Free will (in terms of determining where you go after death) has at a minimum ended at the point you became saved, if you had it at all. You still have free will to sin or not sin and even to reject christ but whatever you choose isn't going to change your destination.
> 
> Sam Kinison comes to mind. He was a born again believer and a preacher that did a complete 180.



Never heard of Sam...just googled him.  Sad story.

To which I'd say he never knew the Grace of God.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 29, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Never heard of Sam...just googled him.  Sad story.
> 
> To which I'd say he never knew the Grace of God.



I had a feeling you would pull that one. That is why I asked earlier if you died at this point in time you would go to the one place and if you died at some other point you would go some where else.

Once saved always saved unless you change your mind and become unsaved in which case you were never saved to begin with. Sorry but sounds a bit far fetched to me.  But maybe it makes sense in light of predestination. God created satan with the full knowledge and intention of what would happen. Same with every human created regardless of where they go.

People really can believe with all their heart and then change their minds. It happens. If it can be said those people never really were saved then that would mean they would have been sent to burn no matter what point in their life they died, even if it had been when they were believers.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 29, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> I had a feeling you would pull that one. That is why I asked earlier if you died at this point in time you would go to the one place and if you died at some other point you would go some where else.
> 
> Once saved always saved unless you change your mind and become unsaved in which case you were never saved to begin with. Sorry but sounds a bit far fetched to me.  But maybe it makes sense in light of predestination. God created satan with the full knowledge and intention of what would happen. Same with every human created regardless of where they go.



Yes, God is ominiscient and knew exactly what would happen before the beginning of time.



			
				atlashunter said:
			
		

> People really can believe with all their heart and then change their minds. It happens. If it can be said those people never really were saved then that would mean they would have been sent to burn no matter what point in their life they died, even if it had been when they were believers.



Not true.  This is where your hypotheticals just don't work.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 29, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Yes, God is ominiscient and knew exactly what would happen before the beginning of time.



Which opens up a whole other pandoras box of problems as it relates to an evil world with a good god but I'll not derail the thread any further.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 29, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Not true.  This is where your hypotheticals just don't work.



Not true that people can really believe and change their minds?


----------



## stringmusic (Jul 29, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Not true that people can really believe and change their minds?



First off, there is a difference in believing and believing with conviction with a relationship with Jesus Christ.

Really believing(with conviction and relationship) and changing your mind about Christ are mutually exclusive.


----------



## Madman (Jul 29, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Well I guess I left the question open to a predestination answer because I wanted to be sure we were on the same page concerning what happens to the souls in question. But I was expecting the conversation to deal more with free will because I think that tends to be the view held by more christians and especially the ones that give that answer to the problem of evil.
> 
> Either way I think you run into problems answering the question of evil in the world. If it's all predestined and you take free will off the table then you take with it that answer to the problem of evil. If you subscribe to the free will view then this issue that I have brought up presents another set of challenges.



Very good.

I hope this thread goes long enough for me to regain my thoughts,beliefs, and arguments on the topic.  

I will open by claiming that EVERY Christian denomination has some doctrine on predestination, although it may not be the same.

looking forward to it.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 29, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Not true that people can really believe and change their minds?



No...I mean that someone can be truly saved then change their mind...but die before they changed their mind.



stringmusic said:


> First off, there is a difference in believing and believing with conviction with a relationship with Jesus Christ.
> 
> Really believing(with conviction and relationship) and changing your mind about Christ are mutually exclusive.



Very good point.

We read in James 2 that even the demons believe.

Also, in Luke 6 where the demons were cast into the swine.  They bowed down to Jesus as they knew he had power over them.


Christianity is much more than just belief.


----------



## stringmusic (Jul 29, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> No...I mean that someone can be truly saved then change their mind...but die before they changed their mind.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 29, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Very good point.
> 
> We read in James 2 that even the demons believe.
> 
> ...



Oh come on, you guys know what I meant. 

When I say that they really believed I mean they have met all the conditions for someone to be saved, born again, heaven bound, covered in the blood, etc.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 29, 2011)

That's not what it sounds like to me. From what you have said and from what I have been taught, if someone can turn away, they didn't REALLY believe in the first place, so even if they said they did and tried to have a relationship of some kind with someone who wasn't beside them in the flesh, the one fact that they decided it wasn't true any more, meant they never did believe. 

So it is "just belief." But eventual disbelief indicates that there was never true belief.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 29, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Oh come on, you guys know what I meant.
> 
> When I say that they really believed I mean they have met all the conditions for someone to be saved, born again, heaven bound, covered in the blood, etc.



Well that's just it.  You can't be saved, born again, heaven bound, covered in the blood, covered by his resurection and then not be.

Look at Judas.  I think he's a great example of many "christians" today.  He walked with Christ.  He knew Christ.  He acted like the other disciples, but he never made Christ Lord of his life.  And you see he turned against Christ.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 29, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> So it is "just belief." But eventual disbelief indicates that there was never true belief.



bingo


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 29, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Well that's just it.  You can't be saved, born again, heaven bound, covered in the blood, covered by his resurection and then not be.



That's where we disagree. It doesn't matter how far someone goes down that road or how many hoops you think they need to jump through to demonstrate they are really saved, they can always have a change of heart, change their mind, live differently and so on before they die. Now you can say they'll still go to heaven. But you can't say that their minds and hearts couldn't have done a 180 from where they once were. They would agree with you that they were never saved to begin with because they now realize they were deluded but that doesn't mean they weren't at one time just as convinced as you, having experiences like you have, and so forth.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 29, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> bingo



Do you think someone can truly believe that Christianity is a bunch of bunk and then come to truly believe it isn't? Adn if they do that then they never really disbelieved at all? Seems you think people can change their mind in one direction but not the other.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 29, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> That's where we disagree. It doesn't matter how far someone goes down that road or how many hoops you think they need to jump through to demonstrate they are really saved, they can always have a change of heart, change their mind, live differently and so on before they die. Now you can say they'll still go to heaven. But you can't say that their minds and hearts couldn't have done a 180 from where they once were. They would agree with you that they were never saved to begin with because they now realize they were deluded but that doesn't mean they weren't at one time just as convinced as you, having experiences like you have, and so forth.



But you see, salvation is not based on what I do.  Salvation is based on what God did for me.  Therefore, I can't lose what was given to me.

As I quoted scripture before, "He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it."  God is faithful....He will see my faith through to the end.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 29, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Do you think someone can truly believe that Christianity is a bunch of bunk and then come to truly believe it isn't? Adn if they do that then they never really disbelieved at all? Seems you think people can change their mind in one direction but not the other.



I think my above post answers this as well.


----------



## stringmusic (Jul 29, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Oh come on, you guys know what I meant.
> 
> When I say that they really believed I mean they have met all the conditions for someone to be saved, born again, heaven bound, covered in the blood, etc.





stringmusic said:


> Really believing(with conviction and relationship) and changing your mind about Christ are* mutually exclusive*.



IMO, there is no other way around this.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 29, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> But you see, salvation is not based on what I do.  Salvation is based on what God did for me.  Therefore, I can't lose what was given to me.
> 
> As I quoted scripture before, "He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it."  God is faithful....He will see my faith through to the end.



Do you have to believe Jesus died for your sins and accept him as your lord and savior to be saved?


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 29, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> IMO, there is no other way around this.



Perhaps at the same point in time but not at different points in time.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 29, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Do you have to believe Jesus died for your sins and accept him as your lord and savior to be saved?





Sorry...your question made me chuckle a bit.  Of course.  But it is based on Christ's Death and resurrection...not on my good deeds.

Salvation is a gift...a free gift.  Rom 6:23


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 29, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Sorry...your question made me chuckle a bit.  Of course.  But it is based on Christ's Death and resurrection...not on my good deeds.
> 
> Salvation is a gift...a free gift.  Rom 6:23



It is based on what you do in the sense that you have to do something (accept and believe) in order to receive it. You're really splitting hairs right now and pointlessly so.

If you can believe Jesus died for your sins and accept him as your lord and savior then the reverse is also true.

Maybe once someone does that they are guaranteed heaven no matter what they think or do later on but people certainly can really believe something and change their minds. Happens all the time.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 29, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> It is based on what you do in the sense that you have to do something (accept and believe) in order to receive it. You're really splitting hairs right now and pointlessly so.
> 
> If you can believe Jesus died for your sins and accept him as your lord and savior then the reverse is also true.
> 
> Maybe once someone does that they are guaranteed heaven no matter what they think or do later on but people certainly can really believe something and change their minds. Happens all the time.



No...I'm not.

This is why.

God chose me....He saved me.  He can't let me go.


----------



## dexrusjak (Jul 29, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Only Christians can reject sin.



What exactly do you mean by this statement?


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 30, 2011)

dexrusjak said:


> What exactly do you mean by this statement?



God only provides a way of escape from temptation for those that love him.

I'm not saying that non-Christians can't do something good.  Not at all...but that their motive will be one of selfish desires.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 30, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> God only provides a way of escape from temptation for those that love him.
> 
> I'm not saying that non-Christians can't do something good.  Not at all...but that their motive will be one of selfish desires.



So there is No POSSIBLE WAY that non-christians could get those ways of escape from temptation from the god they worship? And you wonder why Christians push people away with their mindset....


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 30, 2011)

bullethead said:


> So there is No POSSIBLE WAY that non-christians could get those ways of escape from temptation from the god they worship? And you wonder why Christians push people away with their mindset....



Really?  I didn't think you believed in God.

And what is so offensive about that?  I think the Bishop's thread about his child dedication proved the point.


----------



## bad0351 (Jul 30, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> God only provides a way of escape from temptation for those that love him.
> 
> I'm not saying that non-Christians can't do something good.  Not at all...but that their motive will be one of selfish desires.



WHAT?????


----------



## bullethead (Jul 30, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Really?  I didn't think you believed in God.
> 
> And what is so offensive about that?  I think the Bishop's thread about his child dedication proved the point.



Last I checked Christians did not have an exclusivity to God.


----------



## bad0351 (Jul 31, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Really?  I didn't think you believed in God.
> 
> And what is so offensive about that?  I think the Bishop's thread about his child dedication proved the point.



The only thing that thread proved is that he's a good father and husband to his family.


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 1, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Last I checked Christians did not have an exclusivity to God.





bad0351 said:


> The only thing that thread proved is that he's a good father and husband to his family.



I guess I'm a little dumbfounded.

You both want nothing to do with God.  Yet, when I say there's nothing you can do to please Him, you get upset.

Why?


----------



## bullethead (Aug 1, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> I guess I'm a little dumbfounded.
> 
> You both want nothing to do with God.  Yet, when I say there's nothing you can do to please Him, you get upset.
> 
> Why?



It has nothing to do with me personally. There are millions of other people that worship the same god as you do but are not Christians. It is the elitist Christian attitude that is offensive and turns people away. It does not bother me one bit, but if your message is to spread the word, you are doing more harm than good.

Your comment:
"God only provides a way of escape from temptation for those that love him.

I'm not saying that non-Christians can't do something good. Not at all...but that their motive will be one of selfish desires. "


----------



## bad0351 (Aug 1, 2011)

"their motive will be one of selfish desires" 

So anyone that is not a "christian" can only do good out of selfishness?


----------



## TheBishop (Aug 1, 2011)

I totally understand what RJ is saying, and I 100% disagree.  First I think he is a little confused with his resposibility/ choice thing becuase it doesn't really fit into what else he's said.  I'm going to take a stab, so correct me if I'm wrong.

We all have our destiny set.   Those that are saved are saved, god chose them and them only.  You cannot become unsaved becuase god won't let you there is no choice. In the same sense you cannot be saved or atleast choose to be saved.  God has already made that choice for you.  If you are a non-believer now,and you are chosen, god has a plan that will "save" you later. 

So if you were a believer and you have lost faith, it is becuase god wanted you to, and you were never destined to be saved.  

This is the most illogical, ridiculous concept I think one could ever imagine. It would make life absolutely pointless.  There would be no such thing as good or evil, right or wrong.  There would not even be a point in having a heaven or burning palce (we really should petition to allow that word in atleast the religious forums).    If everything is already determined and God has chose the winners and losers before we had a chance to prove our intentions, then WHY? Then God certainly isn't all good, because he created all the bad in the world knowing and willing it all to happen. Agian WHY? 

I'm sorry Rj the predestination stuff just doesn't jive.


----------



## bullethead (Aug 1, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> I totally understand what RJ is saying, and I 100% disagree.  First I think he is a little confused with his resposibility/ choice thing becuase it doesn't really fit into what else he's said.  I'm going to take a stab, so correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> We all have our destiny set.   Those that are saved are saved, god chose them and them only.  You cannot become unsaved becuase god won't let you there is no choice. In the same sense you cannot be saved or atleast choose to be saved.  God has already made that choice for you.  If you are a non-believer now,and you are chosen, god has a plan that will "save" you later.
> 
> ...



Not much in Religion does jive. That is where faith is put ahead of everything else despite what your mind is telling you.


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 1, 2011)

bullethead said:


> It has nothing to do with me personally. There are millions of other people that worship the same god as you do but are not Christians. It is the elitist Christian attitude that is offensive and turns people away. It does not bother me one bit, but if your message is to spread the word, you are doing more harm than good.
> 
> Your comment:
> "God only provides a way of escape from temptation for those that love him.
> ...



How is saying a god that you don't believe in won't do something for you "elitist?"



bad0351 said:


> "their motive will be one of selfish desires"
> 
> So anyone that is not a "christian" can only do good out of selfishness?



Why do you do good?  To please a god you don't believe in?



TheBishop said:


> We all have our destiny set.   Those that are saved are saved, God chose them and them only.  You cannot become unsaved becuase God won't let go of you. In the same sense you cannot be saved or atleast choose to be saved.  God has already made that choice for you.  If you are a non-believer now,and you are chosen, God has a plan that will "save" you later.
> 
> So if you were a believer and you have lost faith, it is becuase you wanted to, and you were never destined to be saved.
> 
> ...



Corrected a few things.  Glad you seem to have gotten the fact that God is capitalized by the end of your post. 

Why did God create us?  For his glory.  Why is there sin?  Well...you should read the book of Job.  I think it would allow you a picture of the war that is waged in the spiritual realm and why bad things happen to good people.


----------



## TheBishop (Aug 1, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Not much in Religion does jive. That is where faith is put ahead of everything else despite what your mind is telling you.



I put my faith in logic.  If there is a god, (and I will not rule out its exsistence), It's existence lies in knowledge, not in fairytales.


----------



## TheBishop (Aug 1, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Why did God create us?  For his glory.  Why is there sin?  Well...you should read the book of Job.  I think it would allow you a picture of the war that is waged in the spiritual realm and why bad things happen to good people.



Again what you say here doesn't jive. What glory?  It  has already chose who will worship it and who will not, and why and how.  Whats the glory in that? Here is another shocker for you, with predestination and no free will there can be no sin! God has already chosen the actions we are going to take! If anybody has sinned it is god! 

Rj you are failing at the whole predestination thing.


----------



## TheBishop (Aug 1, 2011)

> So if you were a believer and you have lost faith, it is becuase you wanted to, and you were never destined to be saved.



You mis-edited my post.  You either believe in predestination or you don't which is it?  If you do, a person can't want anything that god has not already chosen for them, that is the point of predestination.   

Make up your mind.


----------



## bullethead (Aug 1, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> How is saying a god that you don't believe in won't do something for you "elitist"



Do you have NON-Believers and Non-Christians confused?


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 1, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Do you have NON-Believers and Non-Christians confused?



In my mind, they are the same.


----------



## bullethead (Aug 1, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> In my mind, they are the same.



Exactly and that is where your problem lies. There are people that worship the EXACT same god as you do but do not believe in Jesus. You would not know of this god if it were not for the people that worshiped him before you and wrote the guidelines that you follow and refer to in the OT. Yet you distance yourself from those same people as if they were not as worthy as you are.
Pathetic.


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 1, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Exactly and that is where your problem lies. There are people that worship the EXACT same god as you do but do not believe in Jesus. You would not know of this god if it were not for the people that worshiped him before you and wrote the guidelines that you follow and refer to in the OT. Yet you distance yourself from those same people as if they were not as worthy as you are.
> Pathetic.



Not true.  I believe Jesus is God, so if they don't believe in Jesus, they don't believe in the same God as I do.

Now...your assumption of my beliefs on Jews and their eternal destiny is just that.  It is an assumption.  FYI, I'm more dispensational than you probably assume.  God made a covenant with Abraham....and that will and can't be broken.


----------



## bullethead (Aug 1, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Not true.  I believe Jesus is God, so if they don't believe in Jesus, they don't believe in the same God as I do.
> 
> Now...your assumption of my beliefs on Jews and their eternal destiny is just that.  It is an assumption.  FYI, I'm more dispensational than you probably assume.  God made a covenant with Abraham....and that will and can't be broken.



Okay, best of luck with that.


----------



## TheBishop (Aug 1, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Exactly and that is where your problem lies. There are people that worship the EXACT same god as you do but do not believe in Jesus. You would not know of this god if it were not for the people that worshiped him before you and wrote the guidelines that you follow and refer to in the OT. Yet you distance yourself from those same people as if they were not as worthy as you are.
> Pathetic.



It is this type of mentality that invigorates my desire to to dispell this type of thinking. I find it repugnant and seek to disparage its growth as much as possible.


----------



## bad0351 (Aug 1, 2011)

"Why do you do good? To please a god you don't believe in?"

I do the things I do because I want to....not to please any "god".


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 1, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> "Why do you do good? To please a god you don't believe in?"
> 
> I do the things I do because I want to.



Which is what I said in my earlier posts.

Selfishness.


----------



## bullethead (Aug 1, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> "Why do you do good? To please a god you don't believe in?"
> 
> I do the things I do because I want to....not to please any "god".



It is inconceivable to RJ that someone does not believe in a God so right away it is dismissed as selfishness. Even when someone believes in the same God RJ does, but not that God's Son, they are selfish too. Every individual has their own version of God in their brain so no two can ever be the same and no one elses' can equal the others.


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 1, 2011)

bullethead said:


> It is inconceivable to RJ that someone does not believe in a God so right away it is dismissed as selfishness. Even when someone believes in the same God RJ does, but not that God's Son, they are selfish too. Every individual has their own version of God in their brain so no two can ever be the same and no one elses' can equal the others.



Please don't tell me what is inconceivable to myself or not.

Like I said earlier, you can't believe in the same God as I do and not believe that Jesus Christ is God.  

That is like saying you and I believe that the world is round, even though you say it is square.  Just can't happen.


Selfishness or sinful desires...call it what you want.  My beliefs are not elitist as you mentioned before....they are exclusive.  I'm fine with that.  The God I serve is a jealous God and is the only God deserving of worship.  If you don't believe that, I understand....many do not believe in the God I serve.


----------



## bullethead (Aug 1, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Please don't tell me what is inconceivable to myself or not.
> 
> Like I said earlier, you can't believe in the same God as I do and not believe that Jesus Christ is God.
> 
> ...



Did God change from the OT to the NT?


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 1, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Did God change from the OT to the NT?



No.  

He prophesied of His Son Jesus Christ throughout the OT.


----------



## bullethead (Aug 1, 2011)

So same God then as the Jews now worship, minus Jesus. That is what I thought.


----------



## bad0351 (Aug 1, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Which is what I said in my earlier posts.
> 
> Selfishness.



Ok...let me get this straight, I see an elderly couple on a highway out of the car they are driving looking puzzled and upset at a flat tire.
I stop and ask if I could change the tire for them and follow them to the nearest service station so they get there safely.
Because I don't do it to serve your idea of a "god"...I'm selfish??


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 1, 2011)

> I'm not saying that non-Christians can't do something good. Not at all...but that their motive will be one of selfish desires



Somebody could say the opposite: "A Christian only does good because they have to."

A non-believer might "do good" because their system of morality tells them it is the right thing to do.  Some of the most honest, hardworking, good nature folks I know are atheists.  I find that when a person holds to a system of morality because they believe it is "right" (atheist) it is more ingrained than when that system is forced (religion). Doing good often has nothing to do with the self.


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 2, 2011)

bullethead said:


> So same God then as the Jews now worship, minus Jesus. That is what I thought.



A-B doesn't = A




bad0351 said:


> Ok...let me get this straight, I see an elderly couple on a highway out of the car they are driving looking puzzled and upset at a flat tire.
> I stop and ask if I could change the tire for them and follow them to the nearest service station so they get there safely.
> Because I don't do it to serve your idea of a "god"...I'm selfish??



I think you said it best here.




bad0351 said:


> "Why do you do good? To please a god you don't believe in?"
> 
> I do the things I do because I want to....not to please any "god".






JB0704 said:


> Somebody could say the opposite: "A Christian only does good because they have to."



And you know what?  Some do.  But that isn't the religion of the Bible.  God's Salvation is a free gift.  Romans 6:23 tells us that.  Christians do good (or should do good) because they love God and want to please him.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 2, 2011)

> Christians do good (or should do good) because they love God and want to please him



....because that is what they are told to do by the Bible (if you need scriptures I can providde them).

I just find it difficult to think that the only "good" in this world is either selfish or Christian.  The world is full of humanitarians who are not Christian, and "do good" because of empathy.  Dismissing it as "selfish" misses the point entirely.  It is just a different system of morality.


----------



## bad0351 (Aug 2, 2011)

That people who don't believe only do good out of selfishness may be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read here.
And you wonder why people reject god....


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 2, 2011)

> And you wonder why people reject god



...Well, it wasn't until I rejected religion that I could accept God.  There is a huge difference.


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 2, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> ....because that is what they are told to do by the Bible (if you need scriptures I can providde them).
> 
> I just find it difficult to think that the only "good" in this world is either selfish or Christian.  The world is full of humanitarians who are not Christian, and "do good" because of empathy.  Dismissing it as "selfish" misses the point entirely.  It is just a different system of morality.



Alright...then we have a different view on it.

I see others doing good for several reasons.  So that they feel better about themselves or so that others feel better about them.

I'm not sure of any other reasons....but maybe there are other reasons.

But...to me...both of those reasons are selfish.


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 2, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> That people who don't believe only do good out of selfishness may be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read here.
> And you wonder why people reject god....



Why is it so ridiculous when you posted yourself the following?



			
				bad0351 said:
			
		

> I do the things I do because I want to


----------



## TheBishop (Aug 2, 2011)

Another contradiction: If you cannot choose, you cannot act, the act becuase you have already been determined to do it by god, long before it takes place, cannot be selfish of selfless.

YOU DO NOT HAVE A CHOICE IN PREDESTINATION! 

Rj you are one big contradiction.  If you were selling your religion I would't buy it with someone else's money. Nothing, I repeat nothing, you have said makes any logical sense. 

First, I think you want to believe in predestination but only becuase it sounds good.  They way you have explained this idea and the way you have layed out your other views highlights your imagination, not any logical cognitive process. I actually like to thank you.  Becuase the way you explain things does more to turn people away from your views, and hopefully discourages others to join your cause.


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## stringmusic (Aug 2, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Somebody could say the opposite: "*A Christian only does good because they have to."*


.... and I would say that "they don't _have_ to." A person with a true relationship with Christ does what is good because they_ want _to, not because they _have_ to. A relationship with Jesus Christ will change one's heart, which, in turn, will change one's desire's.



> A non-believer might "do good" because their system of morality tells them it is the right thing to do.


_IF_ they have adopted a moral system that "tells" them anything.


----------



## TheBishop (Aug 2, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> _IF_ they have adopted a moral system that "tells" them anything.



Another amazingly ignorant statement.  You do not have to be religious, a christian, a jew, a muslim, a buddahist, or anything to have morals.  Common sense and logic can and will give you a bette sense of morality than any biblical religion.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Aug 2, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Alright...then we have a different view on it.
> 
> I see others doing good for several reasons.  So that they feel better about themselves or so that others feel better about them.
> 
> ...



So why is it exactly that you do good? Because the bible says that people do it because they love god and want to please him.. Does it not make you feel good to know that because the bible says so you're pleasing god? It makes you feel good to know that when you please god and you do good and live for him that you'll have everlasting life. Just as selfish as the way you describe it with taking the god out. Now, if you can honestly say you feel nothing by pleasing god, maybe it's not selfish.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 2, 2011)

> A relationship with Jesus Christ will change one's heart, which, in turn, will change one's desire's.



So, you are saying that being a Christian in and of itself will make somebody moral?  I think you may want to consider all of the bad things which happen every day at the hands of Christians before you make such a claim.  You can say "well. they aren't really Christians," but how many pastors cheat on their wives?  Honestly, some of the most committed and loving marriages I have ever seen have been with agnostics.


----------



## stringmusic (Aug 2, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> Another amazingly ignorant statement.


Man, your on a roll today with the "everybody is ignorant" comments aren't you? Somebody pee in the cereal this mornin'?



> You do not have to be religious, a christian, a jew, a muslim, a buddahist, or anything to have morals.


I never said one had to be. What do you tell someone who hates morals and hasn't adopted a system that tells them anything?



> Common sense and logic can and will give you a bette sense of morality than any biblical religion.


Well, if TheBishop says it, it must be the truth!
Only, some people (alot of people) don't have common sense and use a flawed logic, what tidbit of truth do you  have for them Bishop?


----------



## stringmusic (Aug 2, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> So, you are saying that being a Christian in and of itself will make somebody moral?  I think you may want to consider all of the bad things which happen every day at the hands of Christians before you make such a claim.  You can say "*well. they aren't really Christians,"* but how many pastors cheat on their wives?  Honestly, some of the most committed and loving marriages I have ever seen have been with agnostics.



No, I can't say that, because I don't know. Having morals and being perfect are two different things.


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 2, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> I actually like to thank you.



You're welcome



TripleXBullies said:


> So why is it exactly that you do good? Because the bible says that people do it because they love god and want to please him.. Does it not make you feel good to know that because the bible says so you're pleasing god? It makes you feel good to know that when you please god and you do good and live for him that you'll have everlasting life. Just as selfish as the way you describe it with taking the god out. Now, if you can honestly say you feel nothing by pleasing god, maybe it's not selfish.



I do good for two reasons.  There are times that I do good for my own gain....and there are times that I do good to please God.

What do I feel when I do good to please God?  I get a sense of happiness and joy.  That is a by-product of my obedience, not the reason I do it.


----------



## TheBishop (Aug 2, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> I do good for two reasons.  There are times that I do good for my own gain....and there are times that I do good to please God.
> 
> What do I feel when I do good to please God?  I get a sense of happiness and joy.  That is a by-product of my obedience, not the reason I do it.



Are you dodging your own contradictions? Care to adress them or will just continue to do more like you did above.

Predestination-you do not do anything god controls all actions. You have no free will remember?  You cannot do anything that god does not will you to do.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Aug 2, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> What do I feel when I do good to please God?  I get a sense of happiness and joy.  That is a by-product of my obedience, not the reason I do it.



So I do something good and a by product of doing good and helping someone is that I feel happiness and joy about it. That's selfish.

You do good and as a by product through one extra channel, that you're obedient, you feel good. In those cases do you feel good because you did the good deed or because you were obedient? I'd say probably both.. Doubley selfish. In that respect, I'd admit I am singley selfish.


----------



## TheBishop (Aug 2, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Man, your on a roll today with the "everybody is ignorant" comments aren't you? Somebody pee in the cereal this mornin'?


 
Well String you constantly harp on this idea that one cannot be moral if the do not believe.  It is what it is, pure ignorant rubbish.



> I never said one had to be. What do you tell someone who hates morals and hasn't adopted a system that tells them anything?



Who hates morals and why do you need a system to tell you anything? Logic, and common sense are fine enough guides.  Are yyou telling me without religion this world would be filled with madmen running amok?



> Only, some people (alot of people) don't have common sense and use a flawed logic, what tidbit of truth do you  have for them Bishop?



Obviously, and most of the ones on here are the MOST religious.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Aug 2, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> No, I can't say that, because I don't know. Having morals and being perfect are two different things.



Having morals, being perfect and being atheist are also different things. But the three can be linked just as easily as any religion, morals and being perfect. We just didn't necessarily get our straight from a book and only because the book said so.


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 2, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> Are you dodging your own contradictions? Care to adress them or will just continue to do more like you did above.
> 
> Predestination-you do not do anything god controls all actions. You have no free will remember?  You cannot do anything that god does not will you to do.



Not dodging...just don't feel like typing the same thing over and over again.  

You've asked, I've answered...You don't accept my answer as logical, so you keep asking the same question.

My answer is not going to change.  I'm fine with you not accepting it.  Maybe you're not...but again, that is not going to change my answer.



TripleXBullies said:


> So I do something good and a by product of doing good and helping someone is that I feel happiness and joy about it. That's selfish.
> 
> You do good and as a by product through one extra channel, that you're obedient, you feel good. In those cases do you feel good because you did the good deed or because you were obedient? I'd say probably both.. Doubley selfish. In that respect, I'd admit I am singley selfish.



Your happiness and joy are self serving. 

My deeds are done for someone else and a by-product, I receive happiness and joy.  I don't help to receive that happiness and joy, I do it out of obedience...to please God.

That is the difference between the two.


----------



## stringmusic (Aug 2, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> Well String you constantly harp on this idea that one cannot be moral if the do not believe.  It is what it is, pure ignorant rubbish.


I don't constantly harp on that idea, as a matter of fact, your above words have never been posted on here by me. Click on my name, I have 1,8** post, go through them an find one time I said that a person must be religious to have morals. I'll save you some time, you won't find one.





> Who hates morals and why do you need a system to tell you anything?


It's one thing to know what morals are and actually having conviction and acting on those morals. 

BTW, I was addressing a comment made to someone else in that statement.


----------



## stringmusic (Aug 2, 2011)

> Well, if TheBishop says it, it must be the truth!
> Only, some people (alot of people) don't have common sense and use a flawed logic, what tidbit of truth do you  have for them Bishop?





TheBishop said:


> *Obviously*, and most of the ones on here are the MOST religious.



If it is obvious, then why do you think logic and common sense will lead one to righteous morals?


----------



## TheBishop (Aug 2, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> > I don't constantly harp on that idea, as a matter of fact, your above words have never been posted on here by me. Click on my name, I have 1,8** post, go through them an find one time I said that a person must be religious to have morals. I'll save you some time, you won't find one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## TripleXBullies (Aug 2, 2011)

I would do good to help the person or thing I did good for... for their benefit. The by product is my happiness. I see the difference, but it's not as big as you make it out to be... unless the difference is you get self happiness from two places, doing the good and being obedient. Both are self serving.



rjcruiser said:


> Not dodging...just don't feel like typing the same thing over and over again.
> 
> You've asked, I've answered...You don't accept my answer as logical, so you keep asking the same question.
> 
> ...


----------



## TheBishop (Aug 2, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> If it is obvious, then why do you think logic and common sense will lead one to righteous morals?



By using logic and common sense it easy to deduce what is good for the progress of man and what is not.


----------



## stringmusic (Aug 2, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> By using logic and common sense it easy to deduce what is good for the progress of man and what is not.


but....


stringmusic said:


> Only, some people (alot of people) don't have common sense and use a flawed logic.


----------



## TheBishop (Aug 2, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Not dodging...just don't feel like typing the same thing over and over again.
> 
> You've asked, I've answered...You don't accept my answer as logical, so you keep asking the same question.
> 
> My answer is not going to change.  I'm fine with you not accepting it.  Maybe you're not...but again, that is not going to change my answer.



You haven't answered anything.  All you have done is continueously contradict yourself. You have already previously stated you believe in predestination and NO free will. Answer these and I will be satisfied.

1.  How can one commit sin if we do not have free will to choose not to?

2. How can one act selfishly if the we do not have free will to choose the act? 

3. How if there is no free will, god chooses everything for us, and everything has been determined, is ther good, evil, sin, and righteousness?

4. For the predestination pertaining to the OP, if everything is predetermined are not some infant destined to burn and some destined for salvation?   Afterall adults are predestined why not children?  If some are "saved" and have no free will isn't there some that are unsaved?

5. What is the purpose of its glory if god has determined everything before its happened?


----------



## TheBishop (Aug 2, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> but....



There will always be those people string.  No amount of religion or education will help them.  All we can hope is that the more we evolve as a species the fewer they become in number.


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 2, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> I see the difference, but it's not as big as you make it out to be.



And that might be the case.  How big depends on the person.  It isn't the same for everyone....cause the big deer I shot and posted in the hunting forum...got flamed for being too small


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 2, 2011)

> the big deer I shot and posted in the hunting forum...got flamed for being too small



Not trying to "thread jack," but I hate it when people do that.  A legal deer is a legal deer and a trophy is in the eye of the hunter.


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 2, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> Answer these and I will be satisfied.



No...you won't be satisfied.  I've already answered them in my posts above.

You are no different than the Jews in Jesus' time.  Always asking for more signs and wonders...but never believing no matter how great the miracle.

Acts 2:13


----------



## TripleXBullies (Aug 2, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> And that might be the case.  How big depends on the person.  It isn't the same for everyone....cause the big deer I shot and posted in the hunting forum...got flamed for being too small



This is true.. Saying it is big doesn't make it big. Saying you're not doing good for self service doesn't it -not- self serving.


----------



## bad0351 (Aug 2, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Alright...then we have a different view on it.
> 
> I see others doing good for several reasons.  So that they feel better about themselves or so that others feel better about them.
> 
> ...



I would say that the only reason christians ever do good is to buy their way into heaven....make sure they make the list.....that's a selfish act


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 2, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> This is true.. Saying it is big doesn't make it big. Saying you're not doing good for self service doesn't it -not- self serving.



I say pecan, you say peecan...I say toemato, you say tomatoe.



bad0351 said:


> I would say that the only reason christians ever do good is to buy their way into heaven....make sure they make the list.....that's a selfish act



For all the christian religions that believe a works based salvation, I'd agree with you.

However, Rom 6:23 tells us that Salvation is a FREE FREE FREE gift of God.

Eph 2:8-9 says the same..." For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."


So...sorry, that line of reasoning doesn't work for me or Biblical Christianity.


----------



## TheBishop (Aug 2, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> No...you won't be satisfied.  I've already answered them in my posts above.
> 
> You are no different than the Jews in Jesus' time.  Always asking for more signs and wonders...but never believing no matter how great the miracle.
> 
> Acts 2:13



Nice cop out. You can't answer them without contradicting yourself. I'm not asking for signs and wonders.  I'm asking for clarification on matters in which you claim knowledge.  They seem to be in direct contrast from one post to the next.  By dodging the questions , which you claim to have answered but haven't, you do nothing more than highlight the fallacies in your beliefs.


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 2, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> Nice cop out. You can't answer them without contradicting yourself. I'm not asking for signs and wonders.  I'm asking for clarification on matters in which you claim knowledge.  They seem to be in direct contrast from one post to the next.  By dodging the questions , which you claim to have answered but haven't, you do nothing more than highlight the lack of understanding you have of Biblical Doctrine.



Fixed it for you.


----------



## TheBishop (Aug 2, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Fixed it for you.



If this is biblical doctrine all you have done is highlight its many illogical contradictions and the reason it is the fallible word of man, not god.


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 2, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> If this is biblical doctrine all you have done is highlight its many illogical contradictions and the reason it is the fallible word of man, not god.



I'm fine with you thinking that.

I Cor 1:18.


----------



## bullethead (Aug 2, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Why is it so ridiculous when you posted yourself the following?



Your god gave him free will, be happy. He is predestined to be selfish, not cause he wants to be but because he is supposed to be.


----------



## bullethead (Aug 2, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Fixed it for you.



You should get a friendly PM from a MOD for CONSTANTLY going in and "fixing" other peoples posts. It is clear that they meant to post exactly what is posted and there is no need for you to change someones words to suit yourself. Your actions speak for your character.


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 2, 2011)

bullethead said:


> You should get a friendly PM from a MOD for CONSTANTLY going in and "fixing" other peoples posts. It is clear that they meant to post exactly what is posted and there is no need for you to change someones words to suit yourself. Your actions speak for your character.



Have you read the rules to this site?  I didn't see where I violated a rule.

What I did is common occurrence on this board....highlighted in red to insure no miscommunication or to mislead those who might not read my response.

Why the ill-will?  I've answered the questions to the best of my abilities...which has given some clarity and others further confusion.


----------



## Michael F. Gray (Aug 2, 2011)

The "age of accountability" is perhaps the best term to describe youth who have become aware of right and wrong, and begin to make choices with consequences. Can't say what that age is, and it assuredly varies with the maturity of the child. In Free Will Baptist Churches, we have baby dedications. It more of a service to charge the Parents to raise the newly arrived bundle of joy in the nurture and admonition of the Lord so they will naturally make the right "choices" when they reach that age. It helps if the child is surrounded by family living the proper example, and enjoys a home life in a fundamental Christian enviornment. In the "dedication service" the Parents pledge to faithfully bring that child to Sunday School and Church, and to live a Christ centered life before the child God has BLESSED them with.


----------



## bad0351 (Aug 2, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> I say pecan, you say peecan...I say toemato, you say tomatoe.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





"So...sorry, that line of reasoning doesn't work for me or Biblical Christianity"

Oh, but it does work for you.....You always use god as your reason for doing good....you want to please him-her-it with your oh so giving soul...so when you help your neighbor stack his wood pile, hoping he will throw you a cord ...you can always fall back on the "I'll take the cord of wood but I only helped to please god" story.


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 2, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> "So...sorry, that line of reasoning doesn't work for me or Biblical Christianity"
> 
> Oh, but it does work for you.....You always use god as your reason for doing good....you want to please him-her-it with your oh so giving soul...so when you help your neighbor stack his wood pile, hoping he will throw you a cord ...you can always fall back on the "I'll take the cord of wood but I only helped to please god" story.





As it relates to your original question....I can do nothing to "buy" my salvation.


As it relates to your hypothetical above, yes, I can do things out of selfishness just like everyone else.  I still sin...I'm not perfect.  But thankfully, God is faithful to forgive me of my sins.


----------



## bullethead (Aug 2, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Have you read the rules to this site?  I didn't see where I violated a rule.
> 
> What I did is common occurrence on this board....highlighted in red to insure no miscommunication or to mislead those who might not read my response.
> 
> Why the ill-will?  I've answered the questions to the best of my abilities...which has given some clarity and others further confusion.



RJ, "everybody else does it" is not an excuse. You can EASILY just post your thoughts with a regular reply. You can do what you want I guess but "There I fixed it for ya" is childish. Has anyone ever asked you to "Fix it for them"?


----------



## TripleXBullies (Aug 2, 2011)

By this you'd specifically be speaking of the age of accountability to god. As a parent, pledging to do this is something that doesn't enable children to *NATURALLY* make any "right" decisions. It engrains in their head that there can only be one right decision and that all other decisions are based off of that. 

For me it's VERY hard to know if there can be a moral compass similar to the ones that even atheists have today without any influence from a religion or godly type figures because I think it happens everywhere. But I know that people in this society CAN have what most would consider a good moral compass, understand right from wrong, without attributing their purpose to any religion or god.




Michael F. Gray said:


> The "age of accountability" is perhaps the best term to describe youth who have become aware of right and wrong, and begin to make choices with consequences. Can't say what that age is, and it assuredly varies with the maturity of the child. In Free Will Baptist Churches, we have baby dedications. It more of a service to charge the Parents to raise the newly arrived bundle of joy in the nurture and admonition of the Lord so they will naturally make the right "choices" when they reach that age. It helps if the child is surrounded by family living the proper example, and enjoys a home life in a fundamental Christian enviornment. In the "dedication service" the Parents pledge to faithfully bring that child to Sunday School and Church, and to live a Christ centered life before the child God has BLESSED them with.


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 2, 2011)

bullethead said:


> RJ, "everybody else does it" is not an excuse. You can EASILY just post your thoughts with a regular reply. You can do what you want I guess but "There I fixed it for ya" is childish. Has anyone ever asked you to "Fix it for them"?



"everybody else does it" was not an excuse.  You made the implication that I was breaking the rules of this forum.  I was saying that I was not aware of any such rule.  If you can point out the rule that I broke, or where others have gotten the hand slap by the mods, I'd be most appreciative.  BTW, have you read the rules since your join date?

Also, there are many childish things on this forum.  I pointed some of them out earlier in this thread and was told to get over it.


----------



## Madman (Aug 2, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> If this is biblical doctrine all you have done is highlight its many illogical contradictions and the reason it is the fallible word of man, not god.



Just because mankind does not fully understand ALL God's methods and reasons does not mean that the Scriptures are "the fallible word of man".  It may also mean that mankind does not have the capacity to fully understand EVERYTHING about God.

The doctrine of predestination runs the gamut from the prescient view to the Augustinian view and many in between.

Some are throwing around words used to describe Biblical doctrines as though they have a clue as to what they mean.  

Perhaps someone could define predestination, freewill, grace, foreknowledge, justice, and righteousness and where you derive those definitions.

That would help put us all on the same page.


----------



## bullethead (Aug 2, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> "everybody else does it" was not an excuse.  You made the implication that I was breaking the rules of this forum.  I was saying that I was not aware of any such rule.  If you can point out the rule that I broke, or where others have gotten the hand slap by the mods, I'd be most appreciative.  BTW, have you read the rules since your join date?
> 
> Also, there are many childish things on this forum.  I pointed some of them out earlier in this thread and was told to get over it.



Yes I've read the rules. I do recall something about respect but I guess changing someone's posts to suit yourself does not fall under those guidelines.  Just continue on doing it because nothing says you can't.


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 2, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Yes I've read the rules. I do recall something about respect but I guess changing someone's posts to suit yourself does not fall under those guidelines.  Just continue on doing it because nothing says you can't.



I've done it twice in this thread.  Once because I was asked to...once to make a point.


----------



## TheBishop (Aug 2, 2011)

Madman said:


> Just because mankind does not fully understand ALL God's methods and reasons does not mean that the Scriptures are "the fallible word of man".  It may also mean that mankind does not have the capacity to fully understand EVERYTHING about God.
> 
> The doctrine of predestination runs the gamut from the prescient view to the Augustinian view and many in between.
> 
> ...







> pre·des·ti·na·tion [ prïŸ½ destÉ™ náysh'n ]   1.advance decision by God about events: in some religious beliefs, the doctrine that God, a deity, or fate has established in advance everything that is going to happen and that nothing can change this
> 2.God's decision who goes to Heaven: in some religious beliefs, the doctrine that God decided at the beginning of time who would go to heaven after death and who would not
> 3.act of foreordaining: the human or supposedly divine act of deciding the fate of people or things beforehand
> 
> ...





> Discussion of predestination usually involves consideration of whether God is omniscient, or eternal or atemporal (free from limitations of time or even causality). In terms of these ideas, God may see the past, present, and future, so that God effectively knows the future. If God in some sense knows ahead of time what will happen, then events in the universe are effectively predetermined from God's point of view. This is a form of determinism but not predestination since the latter term implies that God has actually determined (rather than simply seen) in advance the destiny of creatures.




It seems pretty simple to me.  Predestination has no room for choice.


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## ambush80 (Aug 2, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> It seems pretty simple to me.  Predestination has no room for choice.



He can turn off his super omniscience power so that he can be sad when he realizes someone has chosen to worship some other god.


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## The Original Rooster (Aug 2, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> He can turn off his super omniscience power so that he can be sad when he realizes someone has chosen to worship some other god.



ambush my friend, if you could get past thinking of time as being strictly linear, you'd be a dangerous man.


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## ambush80 (Aug 2, 2011)

RoosterTodd said:


> ambush my friend, if you could get past thinking of time as being strictly linear, you'd be a dangerous man.




I can imagine god operating in the "15th" dimension.  I can imagine Vishnu doing it too.  Or my dog.   It's still just a dance to try to make predestination and free will jive.

My mom tried to explain it to me like this:  You're standing in front of two doors. There's a sign over the doors that says "choose one".  You walk through a door and see a sign in front of you that says "You have been chosen".  It's cute, but ultimately as ridiculous and useless as a an M.C. Escher staircase.


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## The Original Rooster (Aug 2, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> I can imagine god operating in the "15th" dimension.  I can imagine Vishnu doing it too.  Or my dog.   It's still just a dance to try to make predestination and free will jive.



I don't know ambush. Your will sounds pretty free to me.


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## ambush80 (Aug 2, 2011)

RoosterTodd said:


> I don't know ambush. Your will sounds pretty free to me.



He knew I was going to say those things.  Was I going to do anything else?

As far as I can tell, most of the things that happen to me are very much in my control.  Some of the things that I can't control...well, I prefer not to think that "someone" is pulling those strings.  I wouldn't like that guy very much.


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## Madman (Aug 3, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> It seems pretty simple to me.  Predestination has no room for choice.



So you have cut and pasted 3 definitions of predestination.  Which one do you want to use? 
Perhaps you should study the Augustinian belief, he wrote a lot and Calvin comparatively wrote VERY LITTLE.

It is evident you have done NO PERSONAL study on freewill and predestination and the secular source you used for your definitions have an extremely limited definition which is contradictory to the prescient / classical belief of predestination.


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## Madman (Aug 3, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> I can imagine god operating in the "15th" dimension.  I can imagine Vishnu doing it too.  Or my dog.   It's still just a dance to try to make predestination and free will jive.
> 
> My mom tried to explain it to me like this:  You're standing in front of two doors. There's a sign over the doors that says "choose one".  You walk through a door and see a sign in front of you that says "You have been chosen".  It's cute, but ultimately as ridiculous and useless as a an M.C. Escher staircase.



I would not say I agree with the anology but why do you say it is cute, rediculous, and useless?


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## ambush80 (Aug 3, 2011)

Madman said:


> I would not say I agree with the anology but why do you say it is cute, rediculous, and useless?



Because it doesn't make sense.


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## Madman (Aug 3, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> Because it doesn't make sense.



Hopefully by the time we finish, at least one argument for the "Christian doctrine of predestination" will make sense.

I am willing to bet you will not like it but it is what it is.


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## TheBishop (Aug 4, 2011)

Madman said:


> So you have cut and pasted 3 definitions of predestination.  Which one do you want to use?
> Perhaps you should study the Augustinian belief, he wrote a lot and Calvin comparatively wrote VERY LITTLE.
> 
> It is evident you have done NO PERSONAL study on freewill and predestination and the secular source you used for your definitions have an extremely limited definition which is contradictory to the prescient / classical belief of predestination.



Really? Please enlighten me oh wise one.   I have just used the definitions at hand and they all say the same thing.  Please show me a definition that is flexible with the doctrine of free will.  Here's a hint you can't without changing the true meaning of the word.


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## Madman (Aug 4, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> Really? Please enlighten me oh wise one.   I have just used the definitions at hand and they all say the same thing.  Please show me a definition that is flexible with the doctrine of free will.  Here's a hint you can't without changing the true meaning of the word.



Pre- something that happens beforehand.
Destination - The end of the trip.

The Christian doctrine of predestination deals with our ultimate destiny.

I'm glad I could help you.


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## TheBishop (Aug 4, 2011)

Madman said:


> Pre- something that happens beforehand.
> Destination - The end of the trip.
> 
> The Christian doctrine of predestination deals with our ultimate destiny.
> ...



So does this doctrine you seem to support conclude that our fate have been sealed before hand or not?


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## Madman (Aug 4, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> So does this doctrine you seem to support conclude that our fate have been sealed before hand or not?



The doctrine I support believes that God is responsible for my salvation. 

Study the Augustinian doctrine on predestination and you will get pretty close.

That will take a few months.


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## TheBishop (Aug 4, 2011)

Madman said:


> The doctrine I support believes that God is responsible for my salvation.



Then your definition is different than rj's.  He believes responsibility lies in us.  

So you would suggest that our fates are predetermined and we have no hand in our salvation. Again god has aready chosen who will burn and who will not. 




> Study the Augustinian doctrine on predestination and you will get pretty close.
> 
> That will take a few months.



I don't need to, I already know as much as you do now. Which is nothing.  You can speculate all you want to, but my views are much more logical in nature. 

I see a world for what it is,  a world full of choices, and directions that have yet to be discovered.  Were a coin is flipped and fate is were it lands, not were it was placed by a mystical hand.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 4, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> Then your definition is different than rj's.  He believes responsibility lies in us.
> 
> So you would suggest that our fates are predetermined and we have no hand in our salvation. Again god has aready chosen who will burn and who will not.
> 
> ...



Not true.  We have a responsibility to obey God.  He is the one that chose us.

Read through this thread Bishop...I think it will answer a lot of the questions you have....or at least help paint the picture.

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=309781&highlight=tithe


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## Madman (Aug 4, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> I don't need to, I already know as much as you do now. Which is nothing.  You can speculate all you want to, but my views are much more logical in nature.



If that is what you believe we have nothing else to discuss.

I certainly don't want to attempt an intelligent discussion with someone who admits they know NOTHING.


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## TheBishop (Aug 4, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Not true.  We have a responsibility to obey God.  He is the one that chose us.



This, with no amount of spin RJ, can you convince me makes logical sense.  You can not have responsibility without the ability to freely choose.  

Without free will the repsonsibility is gods, not mans.


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## TheBishop (Aug 4, 2011)

Madman said:


> If that is what you believe we have nothing else to discuss.
> 
> I certainly don't want to attempt an intelligent discussion with someone who admits they know NOTHING.



The only difference between you and I, is I'm willing to admit it and you won't.  It does not change the fact we both don't _KNOW_ anything. Speculation is not knowledge.


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## vowell462 (Aug 4, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> The only difference between you and I, is I'm willing to admit it and you won't.  It does not change the fact we both don't _KNOW_ anything. Speculation is not knowledge.



Well said.


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## Madman (Aug 4, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> Well said.



If ya'll don't know anything why are you here?


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## TheBishop (Aug 4, 2011)

Madman said:


> If ya'll don't know anything why are you here?



What do you actually _KNOW_ about god that is not speculation?


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