# 400 Students Defy ACLU and Stand to Recite Lord's Prayer at Graduation



## Double Barrel BB (Jun 16, 2009)

*400 Students Defy ACLU and Stand to Recite Lord's Prayer at Graduation*





 

By John Jalsevac

SANTA ROSA COUNTY, FL, June 4, 2009 (LifeSiteNews.com) – Nearly 400 graduating seniors at Pace High School stood up in protest against the ACLU and recited the Lord’s Prayer during their graduation ceremony last Saturday. Many of the students also painted crosses on their graduation caps to make a statement of faith. (To watch a video of the prayer, click here) 

The prayerful protest by the students comes on the heels of a lawsuit the ACLU filed against the Santa Rosa County School District, claiming some of the teachers and administration endorsed religion. The suit was filed on behalf of two students, who said that the teachers were promoting their views of religion. 







The two teachers at Pace High School were Principal Frank Lay and school teacher Michelle Winkler. The ACLU alleges that during a dinner event held at the school, Principal Lay asked the athletic director to bless the meal. In another incident, the ACLU alleges that Michelle Winkler’s husband, who is not a school board employee, offered prayer at an awards ceremony
According to the ACLU lawsuit, graduation ceremonies during the past five years at Central, Jay, Milton, Navarre and Pace High Schools in the Santa Rosa District have included prayers by students – often members of groups like the Fellowship of Christian Athletes or the Christian World Order. The graduation ceremonies at Santa Rosa Adult School and Santa Rosa Learning Academy also have included prayers.
Leading up to the graduation ceremony, the ACLU demanded that Pace High School censor students from offering prayers or saying anything religious. In the end, members of the student body were not permitted to speak at the graduation.

The graduating class at the school, however, decided to react against the ACLU bullying by taking a stand at graduation. As soon as Principal Lay asked everyone to be seated at the ceremony, the graduating class remained standing and recited the Lord’s Prayer. 

ACLU attorney Benjamin Stevenson told ABC Channel Three after the event: "Our feeling is that it's regrettable that the students took over the ceremony to impose their religious views on the audience who may not have shared the same religious views. 
"School officials have a responsibility to protect the silently held religious views of others."

Stevenson said that something should have been done to stop the recitation of the Lord's Prayer and that it is too early to know whether the ACLU will pursue further legal action. 

Mathew D. Staver, Founder of Liberty Counsel and Dean of Liberty University School of Law, commented: “Neither students nor teachers shed their constitutional rights at the schoolhouse gate. The students at Pace High School refused to remain silent and were not about to be bullied by the ACLU. 

“We have decided to represent faculty, staff and students of Pace High School,” he said, “because the ACLU is clearly violating their First Amendment rights. Schools are not religion-free zones, and any attempt to make them so is unconstitutional.”


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## redneckcamo (Jun 16, 2009)

praise the LORD !!


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## jmharris23 (Jun 16, 2009)

Good for them. I am willing to bet if 400 muslims has brought their prayer mats and bowed to Allah, the school would have been praised for allowing religious diversity.


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## tell sackett (Jun 16, 2009)

Just when you think there's not much hope for young'uns these days, they go and pull something like this on you. A huge well done to them and thanks DBBB for posting it


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## LJay (Jun 16, 2009)

We need more people like these students!!!!!!


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## Ronnie T (Jun 16, 2009)

God bless um.


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## 00Beau (Jun 16, 2009)

We need to stand up for ourselves.


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## Jeffriesw (Jun 16, 2009)

tell sackett said:


> Just when you think there's not much hope for young'uns these days, they go and pull something like this on you. A huge well done to them and thanks DBBB for posting it





Ronnie T said:


> God bless um.





300 short mag said:


> We need to stand up for ourselves.





X's 2, Amen!


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## StriperAddict (Jun 16, 2009)

jmharris23 said:


> Good for them. I am willing to bet if 400 muslims has brought their prayer mats and bowed to Allah, the school would have been praised for allowing religious diversity.


 
No doubt.  Over on the left coast, schools went all out after 9/11 to show the "tolerant" side of Islam, allowing students to stage 'peaceful' jihad's and taking on Muslim names.   

I'll bet after the main news on this cools off, the ACLU will jump in.


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## 5HwnBoys (Jun 16, 2009)

ANYONE EVER SEE THE ACLU STAND UP FOR WHAT'S RIGHT?​ 







No I don't mean Politically correct either

cause being politically correct don't make it right!!!​


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## Lowjack (Jun 16, 2009)

I like to see those ACLU Lawyers defending themselves on Judgment day.


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## stuart smith (Jun 16, 2009)

This is awesome news!


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## formula1 (Jun 16, 2009)

*Re:*

AWESOME.  Thanks DBBB!


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## christianhunter (Jun 16, 2009)

Praise GOD!!!


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## Nicodemus (Jun 16, 2009)

Good for them!! I have my on thoughts about the aclu. Ain`t good either...


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## crackerdave (Jun 16, 2009)

"Schools are not religion-free zones,and any attempt to make them so is unconstitutional." I'd sure like to hear the Prez say that.

It sure is nice to read some GOOD news,for a change.Praise God for kids with the guts to stand up for their beliefs and their constitutional right to free speech! 
Anybody that defies the A.C.L.U. is all right in my book.I would say that even if those 400 kids had been Muslim.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jun 17, 2009)

jmharris23 said:


> Good for them. I am willing to bet if 400 muslims has brought their prayer mats and bowed to Allah, the school would have been praised for allowing religious diversity.



But that hasn't happened, so until then you're just making a bitter assumption.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jun 17, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> I like to see those ACLU Lawyers defending themselves on Judgment day.



I'm sure they're quaking in their boots.  

What is it though that drives this urge of yours; some sense of vengeance that you as a loving Christian possess?


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## Six million dollar ham (Jun 17, 2009)

> Our feeling is that it's regrettable that the students took over the ceremony to impose their religious views on the audience who may not have shared the same religious views.



Agreed.  Shows a generalized lack of class to have done so.


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## donjon25 (Jun 17, 2009)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Agreed.  Shows a generalized lack of class to have done so.



Oh you mean like forcing everyone to accept and recognize the abominable lifestyle of homosexuality?  Yeah, I agree too, it does show a generalized lack of class.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 17, 2009)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Agreed.  Shows a generalized lack of class to have done so.



Let's be clear....they didn't take it over....they took it back.  It had already been taken over by the ACLU.


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## donjon25 (Jun 17, 2009)

Six million dollar ham said:


> I'm sure they're quaking in their boots.
> They should be.
> 
> What is it though that drives this urge of yours; some sense of vengeance that you as a loving Christian possess?



How is this vengeance?  It's a fact that everyone, you included, will spend eternity either in heaven or that other place.  If you don't believe in either, then you've obviously made your choice.  

No one, and I speak for ALL Christians, no one wants you or anyone else to be lost.

You know how there are just some things that are out of your control?   Well, this is NOT one of them.  YOU, can choose your final destination.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jun 17, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Let's be clear....they didn't take it over....they took it back.  It had already been taken over by the ACLU.



Took it back?  What the...nevermind.

How dramatic!!


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## donjon25 (Jun 17, 2009)

BTW 6M$H:  Jesus was NOT black.  He was Jewish.  Can't remember the last time I saw a black Jew.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jun 17, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> Oh you mean like forcing everyone to accept and recognize the abominable lifestyle of homosexuality?  Yeah, I agree too, it does show a generalized lack of class.



A bunch of 18 (but very possibly 19, 20, 21 year olds) year olds with idiotic ideals and no real world experience disrupting the only high school graduation the rest of the class will ever get to make a statement.  Just because you agree with their notion doesn't mean it's classy.

I'm not sure what homosexuality has to do with it here.  Why are you wanting to discuss that unrelated topic?


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## Madman (Jun 17, 2009)

> “We have decided to represent faculty, staff and students of Pace High School,” he said, “because the ACLU is clearly violating their First Amendment rights. Schools are not religion-free zones, and any attempt to make them so is unconstitutional.”



This was the students graduation and as students they have the constitutional right to do so.

There are a lot of things we don't like, that's why we have a constitution and a bill of rights.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jun 17, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> BTW 6M$H:  Jesus was NOT black.  He was Jewish.  Can't remember the last time I saw a black Jew.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 17, 2009)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Took it back?  What the...nevermind.
> 
> How dramatic!!



See madman's post.  The ACLU took the graduation over....they took it back.

"What tha...."  all you want.  I'm here all week my man.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jun 17, 2009)

Madman said:


> This was the students graduation and as students they have the constitutional right to do so.
> 
> There are a lot of things we don't like, that's why we have a constitution and a bill of rights.



What if there were 400 Muslim students in the crowd who decided to stand up and rip an Islamic chant or prayer about every 10 minutes or so of the ceremony?  Would you be so steadfast in your recognition of their constitutional rights?  Or is this where you go into how this country was built on Christian principles and what not?


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## donjon25 (Jun 17, 2009)

Six million dollar ham said:


> A bunch of 18 (but very possibly 19, 20, 21 year olds) year olds with idiotic ideals and no real world experience disrupting the only high school graduation the rest of the class will ever get to make a statement.  Just because you agree with their notion doesn't mean it's classy.
> 
> I'm not sure what homosexuality has to do with it here.  Why are you wanting to discuss that unrelated topic?



I'm talking about the ACLU and the liberals promoting their agenda and fighting against everything Christian.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 17, 2009)

Six million dollar ham said:


> What if there were 400 Muslim students in the crowd who decided to stand up and rip an Islamic chant or prayer about every 10 minutes or so of the ceremony?  Would you be so steadfast in your recognition of their constitutional rights?  Or is this where you go into how this country was built on Christian principles and what not?





Six million dollar ham said:


> But that hasn't happened, so until then you're just making a bitter assumption.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jun 17, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> I'm talking about the ACLU and the liberals promoting their agenda and fighting against everything Christian.



Okay.  Guess I misunderstood your point.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jun 17, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


>



Is there an inconsistency somehow?


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## donjon25 (Jun 17, 2009)

Six million dollar ham said:


>



ARE YOU SERIOUS???

His dad was black and his mom puerto rican.  Just because he "converted" to judaism after his car accident hardly makes him "Jewish".  Paleeeze.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 17, 2009)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Is there an inconsistency somehow?



Yeh....I think there is.

JM made this hypothetical statement regarding muslims and religious practice at a ceremony:



> I am willing to bet if 400 muslims has brought their prayer mats and bowed to Allah, the school would have been praised for allowing religious diversity.



and you dismissed it with this:



> Originally Posted by Six million dollar ham
> But that hasn't happened, so until then you're just making a bitter assumption.



Then you made this hypothetical statement about muslims and religious practice at a ceremony:



> What if there were 400 Muslim students in the crowd who decided to stand up and rip an Islamic chant or prayer about every 10 minutes or so of the ceremony?



I see an inconsistency.  You may not.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jun 17, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> I see an inconsistency.  You may not.



And you're correct, I do not see an inconsistency.  Whereas JM has gone out on a limb and made a guess, I stopped short of the unknown and provided the board member with an opportunity to answer.  Not the same.  Sorry.


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## Madman (Jun 17, 2009)

Six million dollar ham said:


> What if there were 400 Muslim students in the crowd who decided to stand up and rip an Islamic chant or prayer about every 10 minutes or so of the ceremony?  Would you be so steadfast in your recognition of their constitutional rights?  Or is this where you go into how this country was built on Christian principles and what not?



Read my post.  The Constitution insures the right to free speech.  I would not like it a one bit since the United States of America is a Christian nation, no matter what Pres. Barack Hussein Obama says.  It better fits that the students prayed to the one true God, that being the Judeo/Christian God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob but if the Muslims choose to offer a chant so be it.

P.S. Muslims don't pray every 10 mins. they pray 5 times a day.  So your hypothetical sets up a nothing more than a continual disruptive situation, which I would not agree anyone should do.


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## RackNBeardOutdoors (Jun 17, 2009)

Glad that they did what the did.


It's about time.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 17, 2009)

Six million dollar ham said:


> And you're correct, I do not see an inconsistency.  Whereas JM has gone out on a limb and made a guess, I stopped short of the unknown and provided the board member with an opportunity to answer.  Not the same.  Sorry.



Oh.....Ok.  NOW I get it.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jun 17, 2009)

Madman said:


> Read my post.  The Constitution insures the right to free speech.  I would not like it a one bit since the United States of America is a Christian nation, no matter what Pres. Barack Hussein Obama says.  It better fits that the students prayed to the one true God, that being the Judeo/Christian God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob but if the Muslims choose to offer a chant so be it.
> 
> P.S. Muslims don't pray every 10 mins. they pray 5 times a day.  So your hypothetical sets up a nothing more than a continual disruptive situation, which I would not agree anyone should do.



Now we're getting somewhere.  So you're okay with the Christians' Lord's Prayer disrupting, er uh, making an appearance during the ceremony.  But doing so every 10 minutes would be inappropriate.  As best I can tell, they only did it once during graduation.  Just so it's clear, you'd be equally okay with 400 Muslim students jumping up with whatever prominent Islamic prayer they chose to recite in the middle of the ceremony (just once of course)?


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## Huntinfool (Jun 17, 2009)

I can't answer for Mad....but I would say yes to your question.  Doing it at the beginning of the ceremony (as had been the tradition in the past) is fine.  They were standing up for their constitutional rights and taking back what the ACLU had taken from them.

If they did it every ten minutes, then it would be an intentional continued disruption that is not appropriate....and yes, had this been a predominantly muslim school and they wanted to do their "chants" as you put it, I'd have been fine with it.  They had just as much right to do that as those kids....but they didn't.


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## Madman (Jun 17, 2009)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Now we're getting somewhere.  So you're okay with the Christians' Lord's Prayer disrupting, er uh, making an appearance during the ceremony.  But doing so every 10 minutes would be inappropriate.  As best I can tell, they only did it once during graduation.  Just so it's clear, you'd be equally okay with 400 Muslim students jumping up with whatever prominent Islamic prayer they chose to recite in the middle of the ceremony (just once of course)?



Yep


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## Six million dollar ham (Jun 17, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> How is this vengeance?  It's a fact that everyone, you included, will spend eternity either in heaven or that other place.  If you don't believe in either, then you've obviously made your choice.
> 
> No one, and I speak for ALL Christians, no one wants you or anyone else to be lost.
> 
> You know how there are just some things that are out of your control?   Well, this is NOT one of them.  YOU, can choose your final destination.



I was referring to Lowjack's sentiment that he'd enjoy watching the ACLU lawyers on judgment day.  It seems to run contrary to how a Christian would act, to derive some level of satisfaction in watching somebody on the other team being cast down to Hades.  Love thy neighbor, love the sinner, hate the sin, etc.


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## ambush80 (Jun 17, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> I'm talking about the ACLU and the liberals promoting their agenda and fighting against everything Christian.



Not everything, just the dumb stuff.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 17, 2009)

He said he'd like to see them defend themselves on that day.  I'd, quite honestly, like to hear what they have to say on that day as well!

Pretty sure they'll be shocked that they actually have to answer for this stuff.  Pretty sure they believe in the "when you die, you're just worm food" theory.


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## donjon25 (Jun 17, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> He said he'd like to see them defend themselves on that day.  I'd, quite honestly, like to hear what they have to say on that day as well!
> 
> Pretty sure they'll be shocked that they actually have to answer for this stuff.  Pretty sure they believe in the "when you die, you're just worm food" theory.



True.  He said about defending themselves.  I believe he said it in a sarcastic way, not literal.  

Honestly, I don't think much will be said on "that" day.  Heads will be bowed in shame.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jun 17, 2009)

They shouldn't have boycotted the prayer the christian kids wanted to do.
They should have just slotted in time for EVERY religion represented by the students to be recognized.  

That's been my 'gripe' all along.  If you're going to allow the christians to pray to their god in the schools, then you need to allow ALL religions to pray to their gods.

And when you do it before some type of school function, it should be done at the beginning before the function starts, so those of us who don't give a crap can show up late and not have to sit through it all..... 

Now THAT would be FAIR.


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## CAL (Jun 17, 2009)

redneckcamo said:


> praise the lord !!



amen!


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## Ruger GSP (Jun 17, 2009)

Six million dollar ham said:


> A bunch of 18 (but very possibly 19, 20, 21 year olds) year olds with idiotic ideals and no real world experience disrupting the only high school graduation the rest of the class will ever get to make a statement.  Just because you agree with their notion doesn't mean it's classy.
> 
> I'm not sure what homosexuality has to do with it here.  Why are you wanting to discuss that unrelated topic?


This was close to my home town, and I heard this was going to happen long before it ever did. How many kids were in the graduating class???? Id be willing to bet the 400 were the majority. Should the majority of the students be oppressed or held back for the sake of two thin skinned kids? We all do things on a daily basis we would rather not do, if you dont like it, dont pay attention to it, simple as that. After all isnt that the ideoligy of homosexuals? I agree with the post that says they took it back from the ACLU. Im glad they had the guts to stand up for thier beliefs.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jun 17, 2009)

Ruger GSP said:


> Id be willing to bet the 400 were the majority. Should the majority of the students be oppressed or held back for the sake of two thin skinned kids?



I guess that depends on if you are one in the majority or not.
If you were one of the two thin skinned kids and the majority were Muslims, would you feel differently?


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## Ruger GSP (Jun 17, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I guess that depends on if you are one in the majority or not.
> If you were one of the two thin skinned kids and the majority were Muslims, would you feel differently?



for the sake of allowing the kids to worship God in prayer? Heck yea. Muslims have the right to worship whomever they please. Do I agree with their beliefs? NO. But for too long we have kicked God out of every thing. I will gladly try to convert a muslim to Christianity, and show him why I believe in Jesus Christ. Dont get me wrong, I dont wish to see a muslim worshiping alah, but I would not ban prayer over somebody elses beliefs for the sake of not hurting anyones feelings. Lets take a spin on this. Does it not matter how the Christians feel about their right to prayer? For once they are the majority, again, it pleases me, and I am sure it pleases God, to see these kids taking a stand for Him.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 17, 2009)

jmharris23 said:


> Good for them. I am willing to bet if 400 muslims has brought their prayer mats and bowed to Allah, the school would have been praised for allowing religious diversity.


 
No doubt. 

These students are awesome role models for the underclassmen to follow. It should be interesting to see how this plays out in the courts. I certainly would like to see the ACLU get knocked down a notch or two.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jun 17, 2009)

Ruger GSP said:


> for the sake of allowing the kids to worship God in prayer? Heck yea. Muslims have the right to worship whomever they please. Do I agree with their beliefs? NO. But for too long we have kicked God out of every thing. I will gladly try to convert a muslim to Christianity, and show him why I believe in Jesus Christ. Dont get me wrong, I dont wish to see a muslim worshiping alah, but I would not ban prayer over somebody elses beliefs for the sake of not hurting anyones feelings. Lets take a spin on this. Does it not matter how the Christians feel about their right to prayer? For once they are the majority, again, it pleases me, and I am sure it pleases God, to see these kids taking a stand for Him.



Does it not matter how the non-Christians feel about their right to not have to sit through your prayer?

Again, I don't have a problem with them praying. But let EVERY religion have their time to pray if you're going to let one do it.  And do it before the program begins so that those who don't wish to participate don't have to.  Or do it after the program ends so we can leave before you start.

Or is it only acceptable to you if it's forced on those who don't wish to see/hear/participate in it??


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## mtnwoman (Jun 18, 2009)

Six million dollar ham said:


>



Still not an ethnic Jew.....Sammy converted....I guess you could say he was a wanna be Jew, and he made it happen....adopted into Judaism, just like some of us were adopted into Christianity. Do you know the difference? There ain't none.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 18, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Does it not matter how the non-Christians feel about their right to not have to sit through your prayer?
> 
> Again, I don't have a problem with them praying. But let EVERY religion have their time to pray if you're going to let one do it.  And do it before the program begins so that those who don't wish to participate don't have to.  Or do it after the program ends so we can leave before you start.
> 
> Or is it only acceptable to you if it's forced on those who don't wish to see/hear/participate in it??



Majority rules...or has something changed in this country? If that doesn't work then go where YOUR majority rules.
For example, do Christians have the same rights in a muslim country as the muslims do? If not why do muslims think....well you know.....I'm home. I live where I  can practice my beliefs....if I couldn't I'd go home.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 18, 2009)

scooter1 said:


> No doubt.
> 
> These students are awesome role models for the underclassmen to follow. It should be interesting to see how this plays out in the courts. I certainly would like to see the ACLU get knocked down a notch or two.



or 3


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## mtnwoman (Jun 18, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I guess that depends on if you are one in the majority or not.
> If you were one of the two thin skinned kids and the majority were Muslims, would you feel differently?



I might feel differently...depending on if I wanted to keep my head, on their territory. At least they don't have to worry about going to the chopping block in this country, can't say they feel the same about us in their countries.
Anyone....including 'anyone' who isn't a muslim is an infidel and subject to who knows what. Just because you say you aren't a Christian won't save you, the only thing that will save you is becoming a muslim....line up for enrollment, it's on the way. We have already had them IN our country to kill us...God forbid we offend them.  Someone hid them, someone housed them, someone supported them, someone financed them, someone protected them...and it was right here in our own country.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jun 18, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> Majority rules...or has something changed in this country? If that doesn't work then go where YOUR majority rules.



I'm guessing that 'my' majority does rule in this country... since prayer usually isn't allowed in school and abortion is legal.  But gosh, I could be wrong, I suppose...


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## donjon25 (Jun 18, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> They shouldn't have boycotted the prayer the christian kids wanted to do.
> They should have just slotted in time for EVERY religion represented by the students to be recognized.
> 
> That's been my 'gripe' all along.  If you're going to allow the christians to pray to their god in the schools, then you need to allow ALL religions to pray to their gods.
> ...



How/why does praying or reciting a scripture affect you?  I just don't see the big deal.  I mean, does it make your ears burn?  Does it nauseate you or something?  Christian prayer is usually asking for blessings, comfort, favor, etc...always for "good" stuff.  Whe is that so bothersome??


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## donjon25 (Jun 18, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I guess that depends on if you are one in the majority or not.
> If you were one of the two thin skinned kids and the majority were Muslims, would you feel differently?



If I were 1 of the 2, I'd just keep my mouth shut and go on with my business.  ORRRRR, just say a silent prayer to "MY" God.

Also, do you think the 2 could even begin to make a difference?  (in your above scenario).


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## donjon25 (Jun 18, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> or 3



or how about knock them right out of existence!!


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## donjon25 (Jun 18, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I'm guessing that 'my' majority does rule in this country... since prayer usually isn't allowed in school and abortion is legal.  But gosh, I could be wrong, I suppose...



You are WRONG!!  It's a documented fact that 78-80% of THIS country is Christian.  However...because of crooked politicians and judges, and outfits like the Athiests, Criminals, and Lesbians Union, a very small % of the population has complained and won.

Turn it around...suppose I was in a community of athiests and agnostics and/or non-Christians, and I wanted prayer in schools?  Do you think for a moment it would even be considered?  I don't think so.


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 18, 2009)

If you don't like what someone does or a group of people do then don't listen to it, or do something else....

The Lords Prayer, doesn't even take 1 minute to say....2 minutes if you are a slow reciter... is 1-2 minutes of your time to sit there and listen or do something else really that important?  

I mean good grief it took me longer to type this reply out....

DB BB


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## Six million dollar ham (Jun 18, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> Still not an ethnic Jew.....Sammy converted....I guess you could say he was a wanna be Jew, and he made it happen....adopted into Judaism, just like some of us were adopted into Christianity. Do you know the difference? There ain't none.



You are correct mtnwoman, he was not an ethnic Jew.  That is because pretty much, well actually, all black people are ethnically black.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jun 18, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> How/why does praying or reciting a scripture affect you?  I just don't see the big deal.  I mean, does it make your ears burn?  Does it nauseate you or something?  Christian prayer is usually asking for blessings, comfort, favor, etc...always for "good" stuff.  Whe is that so bothersome??



Would it have affected you if the principal burst out with a Hindu chant that lasted a minute or two and said the only way to live a fulfilling life is through their god?


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 18, 2009)

Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

opps  sorry for the interuption.... 

DB BB


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## Dixie Dawg (Jun 18, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> How/why does praying or reciting a scripture affect you?  I just don't see the big deal.  I mean, does it make your ears burn?  Does it nauseate you or something?  Christian prayer is usually asking for blessings, comfort, favor, etc...always for "good" stuff.  Whe is that so bothersome??



Sometimes, yes it does.  I don't believe in a man-god (Jesus) so yes, sometimes it does make my skin crawl when I'm at my kid's school and they are saying a prayer and close it 'in Jesus' name'.    If you don't mind bowing your head while someone prays their loyalty to allah or whatever then good for you.

Mostly it's a waste of my time.  If I wanted to listen to prayers, sermons or testimonies, I'd go to church.  I have no religion and I'm not religious, so why should I have to sit through that kind of stuff at a public school function?  If you want to mix in your religious stuff, then do it at a separate function, you know, like a baccalaureate?     Or do it before or after, so if someone doesn't WANT to listen or participate, they don't have to and can still come and watch/support their kid at the public school function.

I think it's a fairly reasonable request.  It's not asking anyone to be censored or restrained from doing it, it's simply asking that those who do not wish to participate have a choice.   But that's not good enough for you... you're only happy if you're shoving it down someone's throat?


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## Dixie Dawg (Jun 18, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> You are WRONG!!  It's a documented fact that 78-80% of THIS country is Christian.  However...because of crooked politicians and judges, and outfits like the Athiests, Criminals, and Lesbians Union, a very small % of the population has complained and won.
> 
> Turn it around...suppose I was in a community of athiests and agnostics and/or non-Christians, and I wanted prayer in schools?  Do you think for a moment it would even be considered?  I don't think so.



So majority doesn't rule, then?   

Why are christians so intent on having prayer in school?  Can kids not pray at home before they go to school?  What exactly is it with your obsession?


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## Huntinfool (Jun 18, 2009)

I've been thinking about this since this thread was posted.  If I'm honest, my sense is that this is more a case of a bunch of highschool kids just wanting to be defiant than it is a case of 400 Christians standing up for their God.

I'd like to believe that there are 400 students in ANY highschool that are true, strong and dedicated followers of Christ.  But I've never seen it happen. 

My sense is that this is, unfortunately, a case of kids just wanting to "stick it" to "the man" a little bit.  That's partially based on just my sense and partially based on the fact that they started screaming the prayer.  It didn't seem to have much reverence in it.  It was more an act of defiance.

Either way, I'm glad they did it.  Just thought I'd add that to the discussion.


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## donjon25 (Jun 18, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Sometimes, yes it does.  I don't believe in a man-god (Jesus) so yes, sometimes it does make my skin crawl when I'm at my kid's school and they are saying a prayer and close it 'in Jesus' name'.    If you don't mind bowing your head while someone prays their loyalty to allah or whatever then good for you.
> 
> Mostly it's a waste of my time.  If I wanted to listen to prayers, sermons or testimonies, I'd go to church.  I have no religion and I'm not religious, so why should I have to sit through that kind of stuff at a public school function?  If you want to mix in your religious stuff, then do it at a separate function, you know, like a baccalaureate?     Or do it before or after, so if someone doesn't WANT to listen or participate, they don't have to and can still come and watch/support their kid at the public school function.
> 
> I think it's a fairly reasonable request.  It's not asking anyone to be censored or restrained from doing it, it's simply asking that those who do not wish to participate have a choice.   But that's not good enough for you... you're only happy if you're shoving it down someone's throat?



I'm sorry you feel the way you do about God.  However, Jesus did die for you and still loves you.

What makes my skin crawl is hearing people use GD, f'in this and f'in that, and all other forms of foul language.  That's just the "hearing" part, not to mention all the crap I have to "see".  But that's ok right?

No one is shoving anything down your throat.  What you are feeling is conviction.  I don't see how saying a prayer is shoving stuff down your throat.  

I bet your mom and dad said mandatory prayers in school when they were young and that dreaded pledge of alliegance...they turned out ok, didn't they?

Oh BTW, you do have a religion...it's called secularism.  Basically you don't need God so therefore you are your own god (little g).


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## donjon25 (Jun 18, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> So majority doesn't rule, then?
> 
> Once again, crooked politicians, judges, etc...
> 
> Why are christians so intent on having prayer in school?  Can kids not pray at home before they go to school?  What exactly is it with your obsession?



No one ever said they "must" have prayer in school.  It's the fact that prayer is "FORBIDDEN" in school.  Big difference.

Yes kids can pray at home, and it's highly recommended, however, don't tell my kids they can't pray in school either.  I'll bet you did your share of praying before a test or something...


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## Madman (Jun 18, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Does it not matter how the non-Christians feel about their right to not have to sit through your prayer?



Where is this right?


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## Six million dollar ham (Jun 18, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> I've been thinking about this since this thread was posted.  If I'm honest, my sense is that this is more a case of a bunch of highschool kids just wanting to be defiant than it is a case of 400 Christians standing up for their God.
> 
> I'd like to believe that there are 400 students in ANY highschool that are true, strong and dedicated followers of Christ.  But I've never seen it happen.
> 
> ...


Good post.  Thanks.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jun 18, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
> 
> opps  sorry for the interuption....
> 
> DB BB



Not a government-owned message board, so as long as the owners of this site allow it, there's no issue.  Totally different, imo.


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## earl (Jun 18, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> You are WRONG!!  It's a documented fact that 78-80% of THIS country is Christian.  However...because of crooked politicians and judges, and outfits like the Athiests, Criminals, and Lesbians Union, a very small % of the population has complained and won.
> 
> Turn it around...suppose I was in a community of athiests and agnostics and/or non-Christians, and I wanted prayer in schools?  Do you think for a moment it would even be considered?  I don't think so.



Quote your documents ! If 80% of this country really cared about prayer in school it would still be practiced . you make a boogy man out of ''atheists,et al'' but the fact is that christians cannot ,or willnot, come together on ANY issue and take care of business. Easier to blame the boogy man than to take responsibility .


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## Huntinfool (Jun 18, 2009)

> It's a documented fact that 78-80% of THIS country professes Christianity.



I think this is probably a more accurate statement....and explains the truth of earl's post a bit as well.


78.5% according to a 2007 estimate I could find in the World Fact Book published by the CIA.

But only 75.2% was either protestant or Catholic.  They include Mormon and "other Christian" in there as well.


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## donjon25 (Jun 18, 2009)

earl said:


> Quote your documents ! If 80% of this country really cared about prayer in school it would still be practiced . you make a boogy man out of ''atheists,et al'' but the fact is that christians cannot ,or willnot, come together on ANY issue and take care of business. Easier to blame the boogy man than to take responsibility .



It's kinda hard, and you know it, to fight against a crooked judicial system who will stop at no cost to remove God from everything they can.  What's the purpose of removing the 10 commandments from courthouses?  

Explain this:  Why is it that muslims can get wash stations in airports, college campuses, etc...make employers submit to their 5X a day prayerbreaks...and they are LESS THAN 1% of our population!!

I never really thought of satan as the "boogey man", but hey, I guess it fits.  

We are "ALL" filled with a spirit.  I choose the spirit of God.  You, by choice, have the other one - the boogey man.

Now don't get me wrong... please.  I'm not saying your a bad person or a murderer, or something like that...I'm just saying that if you don't have God, you have the other one.  Simple.


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## earl (Jun 18, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> It's kinda hard, and you know it, to fight against a crooked judicial system who will stop at no cost to remove God from everything they can.  What's the purpose of removing the 10 commandments from courthouses?
> 
> Explain this:  Why is it that muslims can get wash stations in airports, college campuses, etc...make employers submit to their 5X a day prayerbreaks...and they are LESS THAN 1% of our population!!
> 
> ...



You are wrong . My beliefs differ from yours. Even simpler.
Instead of asking questions about how the muslims do it , wouldn't your cause be better served by YOU finding out how they do it and then gathering your forces and emulating them. Or is their god more powerful than yours ?


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## donjon25 (Jun 18, 2009)

You just don't get it do you?  I know how the muslims do it, I know how the athiest do it...it wouldn't be very hard if Christians had the government (all branches) on their side.

How can I be wrong if it is "MY" belief?  I say you are wrong.  How about that?

Is their god (little g) more powerful than mine?  Nah.  MY God is allowing things to happen because of judgement on mankind.  So for now, and only for now, satan is the prince of the air.  So he is doing what he can as God allows him.  BUT..... all that will come to a screetching halt and Jesus will usher in his millenial reign - Coming to an earth near you.


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 18, 2009)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Not a government-owned message board, so as long as the owners of this site allow it, there's no issue. Totally different, imo.


 
So contact the ACLU... Get it banned from the Board...

I will still post it!

DB BB


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## earl (Jun 18, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> You just don't get it do you?  I know how the muslims do it, I know how the athiest do it...it wouldn't be very hard if Christians had the government (all branches) on their side.
> 
> How can I be wrong if it is "MY" belief?  I say you are wrong.  How about that?
> 
> Is their god (little g) more powerful than mine?  Nah.  MY God is allowing things to happen because of judgement on mankind.  So for now, and only for now, satan is the prince of the air.  So he is doing what he can as God allows him.  BUT..... all that will come to a screetching halt and Jesus will usher in his millenial reign - Coming to an earth near you.





 OK . Help me out here. Your God is allowing your rights as a christian to be ''trampled'' and you are whining about it. Why aren't you happy that his will is being done ?  I just don't understand the thought process .
You claim 80% christian and then blame the government for denying you,while supporting the muslims. Did the 80% elect or appoint the 20% that would damage their religion ? I am not a calculus major but that doesn't add up .
Your god allows their god to take over your country even though the majority of the population believes as you do. That is some seriously flawed logic.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jun 18, 2009)

Madman said:


> Where is this right?



The books are full of laws that protect us from harassment.  Look it up.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jun 18, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> I'm sorry you feel the way you do about God.  However, Jesus did die for you and still loves you.
> 
> What makes my skin crawl is hearing people use GD, f'in this and f'in that, and all other forms of foul language.  That's just the "hearing" part, not to mention all the crap I have to "see".  But that's ok right?
> 
> ...



I'm not feeling 'conviction' at all. 

So this fall, there will be a new morning routine at the school.

Right after they say the Pledge of Allegiance, they'll say the Pledge of Peace.  It goes something like this:

"We will promote the peacefulness of our community.  We recognize that each person is an individual and that there is no right or wrong to a person's individual feelings.  There is nothing wrong with those who choose gay and homosexual lifestyles, because love is never wrong.  We accept and respect their choices, and hope that our acceptance will inspire others to do the same, and therefore promote peace not only in our community, but in the world itself."


I'm sure you'd have no problem with that, right?  I mean, after all, it promotes peace, and only takes a few seconds to recite... and if you didn't like it, you could always do something else during those few minutes.....


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 18, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Does it not matter how the non-Christians feel about their right to not have to sit through your prayer?


 
The constitution doesn't guarantee nor does it protect feelings. This is what has gotten us into this mess to begin with.

What non-christians have the right to do is not participate.


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## Ruger GSP (Jun 18, 2009)

Dixie Dawg
Let me put it this way. I just turned on the TV to see Richard Simons pleading his case on Fox News to Neil Cavuto asking Obama to be his Fat Czar. He thinks he has a great plan to keep young kids in shape. Here it is. He would implement a low paying speacialist to every city or school district that would go into the schools and "make the kids dance to their music". What say do I have in wether or not my kid must participate in this dance class that I dont agree with?? Would it make you feel any better if from now on before we said prayer we say if you believe in God and would like to join in on prayer to bow your heads and close your eyes if not than you dont have to participate? We are not forceing you to pray with us, but as someone being civilized would do if they did not want to, just stand their and wait patiently until we are finished. 

Man I really enjoy a big steak from Outback, but I cant because when I go their they are craming the loud music that I dont want to hear down my throat. I think I will file a law suit so that I can enjoy my steak the way I want to.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jun 18, 2009)

Ruger GSP said:


> Dixie Dawg
> Let me put it this way. I just turned on the TV to see Richard Simons pleading his case on Fox News to Neil Cavuto asking Obama to be his Fat Czar. He thinks he has a great plan to keep young kids in shape. Here it is. He would implement a low paying speacialist to every city or school district that would go into the schools and "make the kids dance to their music". What say do I have in wether or not my kid must participate in this dance class that I dont agree with?? Would it make you feel any better if from now on before we said prayer we say if you believe in God and would like to join in on prayer to bow your heads and close your eyes if not than you dont have to participate? We are not forceing you to pray with us, but as someone being civilized would do if they did not want to, just stand their and wait patiently until we are finished.
> 
> Man I really enjoy a big steak from Outback, but I cant because when I go their they are craming the loud music that I dont want to hear down my throat. I think I will file a law suit so that I can enjoy my steak the way I want to.



Nope, wouldn't make me feel better at all.

As far as Richard Simmons trying to keep your kid in shape, well, welcome to my world.

For the last 6 years, I have had to endure listening to hours and hours of christian hymns, christian christmas carols, and other such noise due to the fact that my daughter is a member of the high school band and chorale. 

Since I don't like it, the only 'choices' given are to 1. not let her participate (which is not fair to her) or 2. not attend the concerts and support my daughter (which is not fair to either of us).   So I have gone and put up with it, even though I don't like it and gripe about it every single time.

My main gripe is not the fact that they have the christian music, but because they don't include music from any other faith or religion.  If they did, I would not complain.  

"Winter Concert"?  Don't just play christmas carols... how about some Hanukkah music? Or maybe some African Kwanza music?  Or how about just a good o'le secular Jingle Bells?

I will repeat again for those who seem to miss it EVERY time..... I don't get ticked off just because christians want to push their prayer and their man-god on me.  I get ticked off because they seem to think that they have the exclusive right to do it.

You wanna do it? Great... but then let's be fair and give ALL religions the same privilege.  And do it in a way that is not intrusive to the rest of us who CHOOSE not to participate.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jun 18, 2009)

Ruger GSP said:


> Man I really enjoy a big steak from Outback, but I cant because when I go their they are craming the loud music that I dont want to hear down my throat. I think I will file a law suit so that I can enjoy my steak the way I want to.



Outback Steakhouse is a private business that my tax dollars do not go to fund.  As a private business, they are free to choose to do business as they see fit.  Not the same at all when compared to the public school that my child attends and my tax dollars DO pay to support.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jun 18, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> Majority rules...or has something changed in this country? If that doesn't work then go where YOUR majority rules.



Equal Rights Act.  That changed a thing or two with majority vs minority issues.  

Are you saying that you think we should have "white only" lounges in hospitals, "black only" sections at the back of the bus, etc restored?   After all, we know who's the minority.

Where do you draw the line, mtnwoman?  Should Christian students be educated indoors with heating and AC, while non-Christians get non-climate controlled trailers out back or something?


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## Six million dollar ham (Jun 18, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> The books are full of laws that protect us from harassment.  Look it up.



I'd say it's more to do with first amendment rights than harassment.  Specifically, how that assures that no official or state sponsored religion exists (compared to say, Saudi Arabia), nor are we obligated to subscribe to its holdings.  

But just the same, I don't feel like sitting through that stuff either at a public school graduation.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jun 18, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> So contact the ACLU... Get it banned from the Board...
> 
> I will still post it!
> 
> DB BB



That doesn't even make sense.  This board is the property of a private individual (or individuals, I guess).  It's up to the owner or trustees thereof to decide what is allowable.  The ACLU would slam the door in my face for undertaking what you suggest.  

A public school though...that's a different story altogether.   Why do you hate separation of church and state?


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 19, 2009)

Six million dollar ham said:


> That doesn't even make sense. This board is the property of a private individual (or individuals, I guess). It's up to the owner or trustees thereof to decide what is allowable. The ACLU would slam the door in my face for undertaking what you suggest.
> 
> A public school though...that's a different story altogether. Why do you hate separation of church and state?


 
For the most part this is a public forum, yes it might be owned by an individual but it is made up of the public... So this could be called a public forum, in a sense...

Because I see what has happened to this country since its beginning... a gradual decline in the very moral fabric of society. Just in my own lifetime so far, society has degraded so much it isn't funny...

It really started when "They" started taking God out of the public schools....

Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

DB BB


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## donjon25 (Jun 19, 2009)

earl said:


> OK . Help me out here. Your God is allowing your rights as a christian to be ''trampled'' and you are whining about it.
> It's called persecution.  The Bible said this would happen.  That's why Christians are losing this battle.
> Why aren't you happy that his will is being done ?  I just don't understand the thought process .
> I am glad his will is being done....it is ALWAYS being done.  I just want ALL my family and friends to be saved before Jesus comes for his bride.
> ...



Come on now, seriously.  How does a crooked, no name, the most liberal senator, become president of the highest office in the world?...on a "dope and rearrange", I mean...hope and change platform?  You can not convince me that the majority of america voted for this clown (<- this said with the utmost respect of course).


----------



## donjon25 (Jun 19, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I'm not feeling 'conviction' at all.
> 
> So this fall, there will be a new morning routine at the school.
> 
> ...



Seriously now...let's be real here.  When has there EVER been peace in this world, except in the Garden of Eden before mankind sinned?  But...your wish will come true however.  There will be a peace treaty signed, soon.  It's gonna be a 7 yr agreement with Israel and the world.  But that will be short-lived and guess what happens then?  I hope you will give your life to Jesus and avoid that coming disaster.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jun 19, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> For the most part this is a public forum, yes it might be owned by an individual but it is made up of the public... So this could be called a public forum, in a sense...
> 
> Because I see what has happened to this country since its beginning... a gradual decline in the very moral fabric of society. Just in my own lifetime so far, society has degraded so much it isn't funny...
> 
> ...



Doesn't matter who uses it.  What matters is who owns it.  
Sorry.  If you don't understand that, there's not much I can do for ya.

And, just fwiw,  the lord's prayer doesn't offend me.  I guess you're hoping it does but it doesn't.  I think it's pretty sad actually that you're thumping your chest about it on a privately owned board.  Remember when the klan protested in mostly-white Forsyth county years ago?  That's the same kind of boldness.


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 19, 2009)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Doesn't matter who uses it. What matters is who owns it.
> Sorry. If you don't understand that, there's not much I can do for ya.
> 
> And, just fwiw, the lord's prayer doesn't offend me. I guess you're hoping it does but it doesn't. I think it's pretty sad actually that you're thumping your chest about it on a privately owned board. Remember when the klan protested in mostly-white Forsyth county years ago? That's the same kind of boldness.


 
So now I am being compared to the Klan...  well that is quite insulting... Maybe I need to compare some of your rantings to the Black Panthers.

I just posted it to be posting it... I don't care if it offends you or not... Just like I will continue to post my beliefs, just like you will continue to post yours.

DB BB


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## Six million dollar ham (Jun 19, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> So now I am being compared to the Klan...  well that is quite insulting... Maybe I need to compare some of your rantings to the Black Panthers.
> 
> I just posted it to be posting it... I don't care if it offends you or not... Just like I will continue to post my beliefs, just like you will continue to post yours.
> 
> DB BB



No I didn't compare you to the klan.  I compared your bravado to theirs when they demonstrated in a 99% white county.  If they went to Techwood Drive in Atlanta, Harlem in NY, or even little old Sparta Georgia to protest that would be different.  If you were a superintendent and defied all legal precedents to do so, I would be impressed if you blessed the graduation with a prayer to Jesus at a public school graduation.  On a private board though....come on.


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## earl (Jun 19, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> Come on now, seriously.  How does a crooked, no name, the most liberal senator, become president of the highest office in the world?...on a "dope and rearrange", I mean...hope and change platform?  You can not convince me that the majority of america voted for this clown (<- this said with the utmost respect of course).



I know you're not naive. Like there aren't world powers pulling the strings? 


I see it more clearly now. We have a world wide ''secret conspiracy'' dedicated to eradicating the good christians.
I guess I need to stock up on tin foil . Again.


----------



## donjon25 (Jun 19, 2009)

earl said:


> I know you're not naive. Like there aren't world powers pulling the strings?
> 
> 
> I see it more clearly now. We have a world wide ''secret conspiracy'' dedicated to eradicating the good christians.
> I guess I need to stock up on tin foil . Again.



Finally....now you're getting it.  

If you think tin foil will help....more power to ya. 

Are you sure you're not a card-carrying illuminati member?


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## Dixie Dawg (Jun 19, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> YES. I would have a serious problem with that. A gay lifestyle is an abomination in the eyes of God...PERIOD. Any true Christian would never accept it. For that matter, neither will any muslim. Love is a wonderful thing, but it's not always right either. Misguided and/or misdirected love is wrong...in this case (gay, beastiality, etc...) = WRONG!!!



That is your opinion based on your religious belief.
What does that have to do with peace? NOTHING.

My point is, you want me (and other non-believers) to have to sit through a prayer to a man-god we don't believe in because y'all think your prayer is 'peaceful'... yet you would not want to sit through a reciting of what I posted because you don't believe in it, even though it was peaceful.   You can't have it both ways.






> Seriously now...let's be real here.  When has there EVER been peace in this world, except in the Garden of Eden before mankind sinned?  But...your wish will come true however.  There will be a peace treaty signed, soon.  It's gonna be a 7 yr agreement with Israel and the world.  But that will be short-lived and guess what happens then?  I hope you will give your life to Jesus and avoid that coming disaster.



Yeah... whatever.  If you only knew how many years I wasted as a christian waiting on the 'big one' and being stressed to the point of a nervous breakdown wondering if 'this one' was going to be it.  Don't hold your breath.


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## donjon25 (Jun 19, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> That is your opinion based on your religious belief.  True.
> What does that have to do with peace? NOTHING.  So you think that accepting homos will bring about peace?  Now that's niave.
> 
> My point is, you want me (and other non-believers) to have to sit through a prayer to a man-god we don't believe in because y'all think your prayer is 'peaceful'... first of, it's to GOD...2ndly, it certainly wouldn't hurt anyone yet you would not want to sit through a reciting of what I posted because you don't believe in it, even though it was peaceful.   You can't have it both ways.  I guess you're forgetting that it's OUR CHILDREN were talking here, and also promoting an abominable lifestyle!!!  But hey, it's ok as long as it's "peaceful" - whatever.
> ...




Dixie:  I know we keep going back and forth here.  I truly mean no ill feelings between us.  I must admit, your last comment really hurt - I mean it hurt my spirit.  I seriously feel like I could cry.  How can one just walk away once they've been there?  And I don't mean to backslide, I mean you just don't believe anymore.  I'm truly, truly sorry.  I know that you know, GOD still loves you and has his arms open waiting for you to come back.  PLEASE don't keep rejecting him, we are seriously running out of time.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jun 19, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> So you think that accepting homos will bring about peace? Now that's niave.



And that's the problem... why would accepting others in spite of their differences NOT bring about peace???  



> first of, it's to GOD...


YOUR god... so?



> 2ndly, it certainly wouldn't hurt anyone



Neither would what I posted.




> I guess you're forgetting that it's OUR CHILDREN were talking here, and also promoting an abominable lifestyle!!! But hey, it's ok as long as it's "peaceful" - whatever.



I'm not forgetting anything.
First, the 'lifestyle' is abominable in your religious opinion. You don't speak for everyone.  Secondly, it didn't promote anything but acceptance for others differences.  



> Kinda like Obama destroying our country...in a very peaceful manner...wouldn't you say? or would you rather he did it through violence?



I'd rather it wasn't done at all, and can't say that I agree anything is being 'destroyed'... haven't heard enough to agree to that.  I do know that he came into a MESS and no matter what he did, somebody is going to be ticked off and gripe about it.  




> WOW, can't say much for "that" Christian walk huh? Maybe your heart wasn't in it. Anyway, the Bible talks about you types. Does reprobate mind ring a bell? Romans 1:27-29.



You know nothing about my walk or relationship with God, so I'll let this one go, because it is a waste of breath trying to explain anything anyway when you already have your mind made up about me... forget the fact that you don't know me....   



> Dixie:  I know we keep going back and forth here.  I truly mean no ill feelings between us.  I must admit, your last comment really hurt - I mean it hurt my spirit.  I seriously feel like I could cry.  How can one just walk away once they've been there?  And I don't mean to backslide, I mean you just don't believe anymore.  I'm truly, truly sorry.  I know that you know, GOD still loves you and has his arms open waiting for you to come back.  PLEASE don't keep rejecting him, we are seriously running out of time.



I don't mean any ill feelings either.

How can one walk away once they've been there?  Because it was shown to be false.  I don't believe in the tooth fairy anymore, either.  Did it hurt? Absolutely... was worse than going through a divorce.  But once you know the truth, you can't go back to believing in it, it just doesn't work.

And as far as the time thing goes, don't worry... they've been saying that line for the last 2000+ years..... the world may end, but jesus isn't coming back, sorry.


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## earl (Jun 19, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> Finally....now you're getting it.
> 
> If you think tin foil will help....more power to ya.
> 
> Are you sure you're not a card-carrying illuminati member?



I must be since I don't go to your church or subscribe to your ''theory''.


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## earl (Jun 19, 2009)

Prayer ,of any kind, is like the sales calls at supper time. We need a ''no call policy''. They are for some one else's benefit ,and I have no use or patience for either.


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## donjon25 (Jun 19, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> And that's the problem... why would accepting others in spite of their differences NOT bring about peace???   I don't accept the lifestyle, so don't tell my kids (in this case, grandkids), that it's OK.
> 
> 
> YOUR god... so?  He's your God too, you just don't know it yet.  But you will.  Hopefully sooner than later.
> ...



Jesus is coming back.  And you being an ex-Christian know that.  I know that you know prophecy is being fulfilled all the time.  Look for a 7 yr peace treaty with Israel...that is paramount in knowing the time of the rapture, followed by the tribulation, then the Anti-christ, and then by the coming of the Lord.


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## donjon25 (Jun 19, 2009)

earl said:


> Prayer ,of any kind, is like the sales calls at supper time. We need a ''no call policy''. They are for some one else's benefit ,and I have no use or patience for either.



OK.  Can't argue with that.


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## donjon25 (Jun 19, 2009)

earl said:


> I must be since I don't go to your church or subscribe to your ''theory''.



My church has never taught that.  But....it is a theory of mine.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jun 19, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> I don't accept the lifestyle, so don't tell my kids (in this case, grandkids), that it's OK.
> 
> Yes it would, you're promoting a lifestyle.




You are promoting a lifestyle as well, and I'm just as DISinterested in your lifestyle as you are in the 'alternative' lifestyle.






> Here's where you are wrong. Being born black, white, hispanice, asian, etc... those are God given differences that we must accept. Being gay IS NOT a God given difference, it's a lifestyle choice...to get even deeper, it's a demonic spirit...and that I will not accept. Telling a child there is a God can only help them in life. Telling them it's ok to be gay or to accept that lifestyle is literally putting them on a path that will lead to their destruction.



Again.... YOUR belief.  I happen to disagree. I believe being gay is not a choice, you're born that way. 




> Good, we can fight and be friends.




That's how most of my friends on here are 



> Jesus is coming back.  And you being an ex-Christian know that.  I know that you know prophecy is being fulfilled all the time.  Look for a 7 yr peace treaty with Israel...that is paramount in knowing the time of the rapture, followed by the tribulation, then the Anti-christ, and then by the coming of the Lord.



I see that people twist current events to fit prophecy all the time.  People have been looking for that 7-year peace treaty for thousands of years.  Keep lookin.  And realize the prophecy in Daniel has already been 'fulfilled'.... so you're  already off base....

God bless!


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## Ruger GSP (Jun 19, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Outback Steakhouse is a private business that my tax dollars do not go to fund.  As a private business, they are free to choose to do business as they see fit.  Not the same at all when compared to the public school that my child attends and my tax dollars DO pay to support.



Although it may not be my state, my federal tax dollars have gone to California for financial relief because of incompetent leaders. In the federally funded public school my kid would not be aloud to publicly pray. However, my federal tax dollars can go towards the openly homosexual rebellion, and the voting of a homosexual for prom queen. You say it is their right to be gay anywhere thay want to, it is my right to be Christian anywhere I want to. Why should a homo be given priveledge over a Christian, has Christianity ever hurt anyone. Has a prayer ever hurt you?

The point being we are not created equal, some like being gay, some like being a Christian, if it is ok in your eyes to be gay publicly, it must be ok to be Christian publiclly. Am I wrong?


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## Ruger GSP (Jun 19, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> You are promoting a lifestyle as well, and I'm just as DISinterested in your lifestyle as you are in the 'alternative' lifestyle.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Must stink to be born that way, that reasoning defies reproduction. Being gay is a choice and a rebellious one at that. We were all created with reproductive oragans, not using them the way God intended would be saying you know better than God, and he outfitted you incorrectly.


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## Ruger GSP (Jun 19, 2009)

earl said:


> Prayer ,of any kind, is like the sales calls at supper time. We need a ''no call policy''. They are for some one else's benefit ,and I have no use or patience for either.



Ill pray for you, that you might be open hearted and open minded to believing on God. Im sure you are well aware where statements like that will get you.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jun 19, 2009)

Ruger GSP said:


> Must stink to be born that way, that reasoning defies reproduction. Being gay is a choice and a rebellious one at that. We were all created with reproductive oragans, not using them the way God intended would be saying you know better than God, and he outfitted you incorrectly.



So does 'satan' cause hermaphrodites to be born that way?  

I'm sorry it's such a stretch to you to think that in the same way people can be born with different physical organs, they can be born with different hormonal desires.  

It's not a choice.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jun 19, 2009)

Ruger GSP said:


> Although it may not be my state, my federal tax dollars have gone to California for financial relief because of incompetent leaders. In the federally funded public school my kid would not be aloud to publicly pray. However, my federal tax dollars can go towards the openly homosexual rebellion, and the voting of a homosexual for prom queen. You say it is their right to be gay anywhere thay want to, it is my right to be Christian anywhere I want to. Why should a homo be given priveledge over a Christian, has Christianity ever hurt anyone. Has a prayer ever hurt you?
> 
> The point being we are not created equal, some like being gay, some like being a Christian, if it is ok in your eyes to be gay publicly, it must be ok to be Christian publiclly. Am I wrong?



Nope you have every right to be a public Christian. 
"Homos' haven't hurt anyone anymore than Christians have.

Point is that NEITHER should be forced on people at a public school function.  However, if one is allowed, BOTH should be allowed.  Simple.


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## Ruger GSP (Jun 19, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> So does 'satan' cause hermaphrodites to be born that way?
> 
> I'm sorry it's such a stretch to you to think that in the same way people can be born with different physical organs, they can be born with different hormonal desires.
> 
> It's not a choice.



That would be like saying does satan cause babys to be born with one limb. Use reasoning here. Think long and hard about what you are put on this earth to do. No child is born with a hormonal desire. No child knows what a sexual organ is. They dont just up and find out one day that they are homosexual, they are taught that it is ok to be like that from people like you from birth on. Homosexuals dont reproduce, they recruit.


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## Ruger GSP (Jun 19, 2009)

Can you provide an example of how anybody else at that school was prohibited from expressing publicly their relious beliefs. You keep saying every body should have the same oppurtunity to express thier beliefs, Im not sure where any one was not allowed, only the Christians took  advantage of the oppurtunity.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jun 19, 2009)

Ruger GSP said:


> That would be like saying does satan cause babys to be born with one limb. Use reasoning here. Think long and hard about what you are put on this earth to do. No child is born with a hormonal desire. No child knows what a sexual organ is. They dont just up and find out one day that they are homosexual, they are taught that it is ok to be like that from people like you from birth on. Homosexuals dont reproduce, they recruit.



You are so wrong that it's silly to even try and discuss this. How do you think that straight parents end up with gay children?  Use the reasoning you claim to have.   

And yes, I do tell people that it is ok for them to be who they are.  Trying to pretend you're something you're not isn't beneficial to anyone.

And I'm not homosexual, so I'm not recruiting anyone.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jun 19, 2009)

Ruger GSP said:


> Can you provide an example of how anybody else at that school was prohibited from expressing publicly their relious beliefs. You keep saying every body should have the same oppurtunity to express thier beliefs, Im not sure where any one was not allowed, only the Christians took  advantage of the oppurtunity.



Read the article again.  Only the Christians took the advantage of breaking the rules that they were given for the ceremony.


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 22, 2009)

Six million dollar ham said:


> No I didn't compare you to the klan. I compared your bravado to theirs when they demonstrated in a 99% white county. If they went to Techwood Drive in Atlanta, Harlem in NY, or even little old Sparta Georgia to protest that would be different. If you were a superintendent and defied all legal precedents to do so, I would be impressed if you blessed the graduation with a prayer to Jesus at a public school graduation. On a private board though....come on.


 

I am not here on this earth to IMPRESS you or anyone else... I am here first and foremost to serve God!

DB BB


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## earl (Jun 22, 2009)

You sure you aren't an agent for Piper,Calvin , et al ?


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 22, 2009)

earl said:


> You sure you aren't an agent for Piper,Calvin , et al ?


 

You sure you are not an agent of confusion?

DB BB


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## earl (Jun 22, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> You sure you are not an agent of confusion?
> 
> DB BB






  Not an agent of but ,perhaps a frequent victim of  and even more frequently in a state of.  
As I often say ,with all the versions,translations,missed books, added words , revisions,etc. , etc.; no wonder it is confusing . When you throw in all the other world religions , past and present , the confusion gets worse. Just for giggles throw in a few atheists and the confusion  gets downright almost intolerable.
The kicker is each and every one KNOWS that only his is the one and only.


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## MudDucker (Jun 22, 2009)

The Bill of Rights in the Constitution are there for the most part to protect the minority from the majority.   Read the federalist papers.  These are the rights that supposedly no majority of the people should be able to ever take from a citizen.

Unfortunately, our Country seems to have forgotten the "life" part of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness when considering the inalienable rights.

Having said that, I thought a moment of silence before the beginning of play at games was there to give everyone to pray to or contemplate whatever they desired for the purpose of hoping that there would be good game in which the athletes would not be injured.  The ACLU assumed that this is somehow a Christian cult ceremony.

What the students did is within their rights and I applaud them for it.  

If another religion chose to make some reasonable display at that ceremony, I would not object to that either.

What I object to is the government forcing the teachings of the humanistic religion (atheistic teaching couched as absolute unbiased science) while forbidding the teaching of contrary religious beliefs.  That is a governmental supported religion and it is unconstitutional.


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## earl (Jun 22, 2009)

The moment of silence isn't the problem. It's when others can't control their selves and have to fill that moment with prayer.


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## WTM45 (Jun 22, 2009)

MudDucker said:


> If another religion chose to make some reasonable display at that ceremony, I would not object to that either.




Yeah, right.

Define "reasonable."


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 22, 2009)

earl said:


> The moment of silence isn't the problem. It's when others can't control their selves and have to fill that moment with prayer.


 
So what do you do during those moments of silence?

DB BB


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## earl (Jun 22, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> So what do you do during those moments of silence?
> 
> DB BB





I quietly and respectfully keep my mouth shut and my thoughts to myself.


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 22, 2009)

earl said:


> I quietly and respectfully keep my mouth shut and my thoughts to myself.


 
Well I spend that time reflecting in prayer to God, and I can do that without even opening my mouth...

We(Christians) have to look for it but, God gives us clear signs when we need to speak up, or when we need to not say a thing..

In the case of the OP, I would say that they students did what God wanted them to do...

DB BB


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## WTM45 (Jun 22, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> In the case of the OP, I would say that they students did what God wanted them to do...
> 
> DB BB



Are you positive?  They could have just as well quoted a segment of the Rig Veda as a demonstration against a controlling authority, if they knew the words.


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 22, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Are you positive? They could have just as well quoted a segment of the Rig Veda as a demonstration against a controlling authority, if they knew the words.


 

In my heart yes I do believe that did what God asked them to do... might not mean much to you since it is not tangible evidence, but it is very real to me...

DB BB


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## WTM45 (Jun 22, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> In my heart yes I do believe that did what God asked them to do... might not mean much to you since it is not tangible evidence, but it is very real to me...
> 
> DB BB



Even the unbelievers in the class, or the ones with "bad fruit" who mumbled?

Is it possible someone in the class did not know the words?


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 23, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Even the unbelievers in the class, or the ones with "bad fruit" who mumbled?
> 
> Is it possible someone in the class did not know the words?


 

Very possible...

There are lost people in every Church...

God is even Glorified by the "Bad Fruit" 

Before every sport I played in "Public School" we as a team and the coaching staff would say the Lord's Prayer....Back then, it wasn't very important to me, does that mean that God was not glorified when the prayer was said? Nope

DB BB


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## donjon25 (Jun 23, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> You are promoting a lifestyle as well, and I'm just as DISinterested in your lifestyle as you are in the 'alternative' lifestyle.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry Dixie you're wrong.  I know, I know...my opinion.  But listen.  Do you believe children are innocent in the eyes of God?  Yes, they are.  Now since the Bible tells us that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God, then how can a child be "born" that way and therefore be doomed from birth?  Not possible.


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## earl (Jun 23, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> Sorry Dixie you're wrong.  I know, I know...my opinion.  But listen.  Do you believe children are innocent in the eyes of God?  Yes, they are.  Now since the Bible tells us that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God, then how can a child be "born" that way and therefore be doomed from birth?  Not possible.





Can we get a chapter and verse on homosexuals not inheriting the kingdom of God ?  Or is this just your interpretation ? I don't know what bible you are reading ,but it seems you have some pretty original verbiage in yours.


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## donjon25 (Jun 23, 2009)

earl said:


> Can we get a chapter and verse on homosexuals not inheriting the kingdom of God ?  Or is this just your interpretation ? I don't know what bible you are reading ,but it seems you have some pretty original verbiage in yours.



1 Corinthians 6:8-10:
No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Anything else?


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## WTM45 (Jun 23, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> 1 Corinthians 6:8-10:
> No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
> 
> Anything else?



Pretty much contradicts John 3:16.
So, according to Paul, works ars what matters.
Hmmmmm........

No drunk believers will "inherit" heaven, guys.  Better get dried out!


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## earl (Jun 23, 2009)

KJV



Passage 1 Corinthians 6:8-10:

   8Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

   9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

   10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

I'm not big on modern translations. But to continue in that line of thought...
Kids hitting puberty who discover the wonder of the privates ...HADES
People who have premarital sex ....HADES
Non biblical divorce .....HADES
Steal a kiss ....HADES
Take a second look at that pretty woman ...HADES

It looks like your modern translation uses homosexuals in lieu of effeminate.  I know several guys I would consider effeminate but are straight. I also know some women who are definitely not effeminate. Does this mean the lesbians get a pass ?


All ya'll perfect folks are going to have a lot of room. I wish you well.

BTW, that was one I did not remember reading. I'm getting old. LOL


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## donjon25 (Jun 23, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Pretty much contradicts John 3:16.
> So, according to Paul, works ars what matters.
> Hmmmmm........
> 
> No drunk believers will "inherit" heaven, guys.  Better get dried out!



You see....and then you had to get all silly.  God does love the world and he DID give his only begotten son.  That still stands.  "Believing" in him is not just making a mental acknowledgement saying:  "Yeah, he's there" and then go on living like the dickens.  This is a belief system.  Believing and following, believing and obeying, believing and living it.  Don't forget, even satan himself believes in God....he ain't saved!!!  When one "accepts" Jesus (part of believing), one should turn from their wicked ways.  Guess what?  They no longer are those things mentioned in 1 Cor. 6.  

So grow up and give your life to God!


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## donjon25 (Jun 23, 2009)

earl said:


> KJV
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good to know you have read the scriptures though.  BTW, you will be judged by what you've read.


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## earl (Jun 23, 2009)

Not to be even more difficult ,BUTTTT
Why the qualifiers on kids and divorce? I get the repenting part.
If the divorce was prior to salvation,wouldn't you have to divorce again to avoid living in sin?
   I think my curiousity gene is going haywire today .

BTW, if I an judged ,it will probably be for more than just what I read.


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## WTM45 (Jun 23, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> So grow up and give your life to God!




Why the ad hominem?
I'm pretty much full grown now.
I'm actually starting to lose size and weight due to age.
If an omnicient, omnipresent and omnipotent deity wants my life I'm sure there will be no defending it on my part.


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## donjon25 (Jun 23, 2009)

earl said:


> Not to be even more difficult ,BUTTTT
> Why the qualifiers on kids and divorce?  You talked about kids making a certain discovery, that's just not mentioned, so I don't know, if there's "lustful" thinking involved, then I think you already know that answer...some folks don't/didn't know any better about divorce, today it's available nilly-willy, once one comes to Christ and repents, old sins are covered under the blood.  I get the repenting part.
> If the divorce was prior to salvation,wouldn't you have to divorce again to avoid living in sin?  Huh?
> I think my curiousity gene is going haywire today .
> ...



True on your last.  We will all be.  How about we judge ourselves in this life and avoid judgement on "that" day.


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## donjon25 (Jun 23, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Why the ad hominem?
> I'm pretty much full grown now.
> I'm actually starting to lose size and weight due to age.
> If an omnicient, omnipresent and omnipotent deity wants my life I'm sure there will be no defending it on my part.



Sorry WTM.  I meant to put a  in there.  

Jesus is a gentleman.  He doesn't force himself on anyone.  If you'll listen closely, with your heart, you'll hear him knocking at your heart's door.


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## earl (Jun 23, 2009)

I asked about kids on purpose. ''abusers '' is specifically called out. I am pretty sure we are talking about the same thing.
Let me try to clear up the divorce query  some.
You are not saved. you get married. You get divorced because you ''fell out of love''.[ I don't think that is cause for a biblical divorce ]
Now you have sinned. You get remarried. You get saved. Isn't your divorce still a sin or do you get a do-over ?


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## ToLog (Jun 23, 2009)

earl said:


> I asked about kids on purpose. ''abusers '' is specifically called out. I am pretty sure we are talking about the same thing.
> Let me try to clear up the divorce query  some.
> You are not saved. you get married. You get divorced because you ''fell out of love''.[ I don't think that is cause for a biblical divorce ]
> Now you have sinned. You get remarried. You get saved. Isn't your divorce still a sin or do you get a do-over ?




i think the whole "marriage" thingy is more cultural than anything. just look at the Muslims, the old Mormons, and various others, maybe even the Native Americans...

Marriage is ordained by God, but is organized and managed by the Humans on the Earth. 

One thing for sure, Marriage doesn't stop pregnancy. Heh, being un-married doesn't stop pregnancy either. 

drifting off-course a click or two here, but surely folks understand that biological rules on the Earth have to be understood, and abided by, if we're to have plenty of Beef tommorrow??


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## crackerdave (Jun 23, 2009)

ToLog said:


> i think the whole "marriage" thingy is more cultural than anything. just look at the Muslims, the old Mormons, and various others, maybe even the Native Americans...
> 
> Marriage is ordained by God, but is organized and managed by the Humans on the Earth.
> 
> ...



Where's th' BEEF?


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## earl (Jun 23, 2009)

crackerdave said:


> Where's th' BEEF?




   Do you remember Wendy's gramma looking down Ronald Mc Donald's pants?


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## donjon25 (Jun 24, 2009)

earl said:


> I asked about kids on purpose. ''abusers '' is specifically called out. I am pretty sure we are talking about the same thing.
> Let me try to clear up the divorce query  some.
> You are not saved. you get married. You get divorced because you ''fell out of love''.[ I don't think that is cause for a biblical divorce ]
> Now you have sinned. You get remarried. You get saved. Isn't your divorce still a sin or do you get a do-over ?  You just continue with your current wife/life.  Past sins are forgiven.



Once you give your life to the Lord you are a new creature.  All things have become new.  That's a valid question though.  Also remember, all sins are forgivable, except blasphemy of the Holy  Ghost.


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## earl (Jun 24, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> Once you give your life to the Lord you are a new creature.  All things have become new.  That's a valid question though.  Also remember, all sins are forgivable, except blasphemy of the Holy  Ghost.



So a gay deathbed conversion is possible as long as they don't cuss?


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## WTM45 (Jun 24, 2009)

earl said:


> So a gay deathbed conversion is possible as long as they don't cuss?



That's golden!

Don't forget, they have to be sober at the time!


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## earl (Jun 24, 2009)

Sure got quiet in here.


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