# Indoctrination?



## TripleXBullies (Mar 8, 2013)

I started in a basketball league at one of the mega churches last week. We just had our 10 year high school reunion... and 5 of us that played some elementary, middle and high school ball together put up a team. I was asked to play and gladly jumped at the opportunity. 

In the middle of our first game the coordinator spoke about how he saw the ministry of the league going and the part he'd have over the next several Tuesday nights. He said that each week between games he'd be talking about how we as men need to lead in a godly way...

I haven't been to church in years... The last time I heard anything like that in person was at a funeral about a year ago. I didn't show it at all, I was respectful, but it disgusted me in a lot of ways. Maybe disgusted is a little strong of a word... I didn't feel the need to walk out or anything, it was just a chore to sit and listen..  I think that would be expected for the most part. So Tuesday was the first bit of preaching I've heard in a long time.... and on top of that I was WINDED... BEAT... my legs were jello-ish and my brain wasn't at 100% due to lack of oxygen... lol.... And I found myself less rejectful of it. I wasn't sitting there saying amen and raising my hands to the lord, but more accepting maybe than I remember being before. I guess he was a pretty cool, laid back type of a guy who I wouldn't think would be pushy, the message was more easily swallowed as well. After another few minutes on the bench after the game started back up and I had regained my composure I realized what had happened.  

I remember someone here mentioning it recently and I know I've heard it before too... that god prefers the weak minded... or something along those lines. Anyone can correct that... I was weak minded at the time... Literally weak because I was trying to catch my breath and restore normal oxygen supply to my body and brain. Maybe my indoctrination started to sink its claws back in between the physical state and the preaching. I'd say overall, it was an experience to strengthen my disbelief... It made me feel more like christian indoctrination holds us back, keeps us prisoner to something. 



Either way, I'm thankful for the chance to play some ball with my friends and anyone there is welcome to preach, witness or whatever, as long as they don't try throw me out of the league so as not to recreate with the devil...


----------



## bullethead (Mar 8, 2013)

Like the lions, indoctrination pounces on the young, weak, sick, exhausted and elderly every chance it gets.


----------



## centerpin fan (Mar 8, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> ... god prefers the weak minded... or something along those lines.



I've never heard anything like that.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Mar 8, 2013)

I'm pretty sure it was Ronnie T that referenced that in the last couple of weeks... I don't know the exact biblical reference. Like I said - anyone can correct or clarify that.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Mar 8, 2013)

My bad Ronnie....



Thanatos said:


> There is a reason the Bible says it is easier for the weak, physical and mental, to inherit the Kingdom of God. With lack of intelligence and sound reseasoning comes more reliance or faith in an all knowing all powerful God.


----------



## stringmusic (Mar 8, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> I started in a basketball league at one of the mega churches last week. We just had our 10 year high school reunion... and 5 of us that played some elementary, middle and high school ball together put up a team. I was asked to play and gladly jumped at the opportunity.
> 
> In the middle of our first game the coordinator spoke about how he saw the ministry of the league going and the part he'd have over the next several Tuesday nights. He said that each week between games he'd be talking about how we as men need to lead in a godly way...
> 
> ...



Do you really think your brain was deprived of oxygen that bad? Sounds like God was speaking to you through a servant, and you didn't like it very much. Lack of oxygen making the message more "palatable" is a pretty bad excuse though.

Just be like ambush and say that believing in God would make you feel stupid and silly.


----------



## stringmusic (Mar 8, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Like the lions, indoctrination pounces on the young, weak, sick, exhausted and elderly every chance it gets.


Knowing the definition of certian words will help you apply them to sentences correctly.

Definition of INDOCTRINATE
1: to instruct especially in fundamentals or rudiments : teach 
2: to imbue with a usually partisan or sectarian opinion, point of view, or principle


----------



## JB0704 (Mar 8, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> I started in a basketball league at one of the mega churches last week....it was just a chore to sit and listen....



I think if you participate in one, you can expect the other.....



TripleXBullies said:


> he'd be talking about how we as men need to lead in a godly way....... And I found myself less rejectful of it.....



You probably just appreciated what was being said in your own way.  Replace "godly" with whatever adjectives could be included in that term, and it's a decent concept.




TripleXBullies said:


> Either way, I'm thankful for the chance to play some ball with my friends and anyone there is welcome to preach, witness or whatever, as long as they don't try throw me out of the league so as not to recreate with the devil...



If it's a contemporary mega-church, you have no worries there.  They will see you as a ministry opportunity.


----------



## JB0704 (Mar 8, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Definition of INDOCTRINATE
> 2: to imbue with a usually partisan or sectarian opinion, point of view, or principle



Guilty.  Both my kids believe soccer was invented by satan himself.


----------



## Huntinfool (Mar 8, 2013)

Here's some more ammo for ya...

"The Lord is close to the broken-hearted.  He saves those who are crushed in spirit."

So, you don't really have to be weak....just really sad and needy.  Glad I could be of help.


----------



## centerpin fan (Mar 8, 2013)

> ... the Bible says it is easier for the weak, physical and mental, to inherit the Kingdom of God...



Chapter and verse, please.

It says meek, not weak:

“Blessed are the poor in spirit,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
    for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
    for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
    for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
    for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
    for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
    for they will be called children of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 8, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Knowing the definition of certian words will help you apply them to sentences correctly.
> 
> Definition of INDOCTRINATE
> 1: to instruct especially in fundamentals or rudiments : teach
> 2: to imbue with a usually partisan or sectarian opinion, point of view, or principle



I see you have the dictionary mastered now look up the words "analogy" and "metaphor". 
Since your such a stickler for proper grammar I'll let you know that certain is not spelled "certian" as you have it listed above. I would not normally pick out such trivial things but I know how much those things must bug you being you are so quick to jump into correcting someone, even though you didn't quite get what was going on.


----------



## stringmusic (Mar 8, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I see you have the dictionary mastered now look up the words "analogy" and "metaphor".
> Since your such a stickler for proper grammar I'll let you know that certain is not spelled "certian" as you have it listed above. I would not normally pick out such trivial things but I know how much those things must bug you being you are so quick to jump into correcting someone, even though you didn't quite get what was going on.



I know what analogy and metaphor mean, and you did neither one. I didn't accuse you of making a grammer mistake, I showed were you misrepresented the definiton of "indoctrination" whether intentional or not. Your post is based on the premise that indoctrination by definition preys on weak minded people, and you're wrong.

As far as my mis-spelling of "certain", I type really fast, and I don't always re-read my posts.


----------



## stringmusic (Mar 8, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Guilty.  Both my kids believe soccer was invented by satan himself.



 

I can't say I blame you!


----------



## bullethead (Mar 8, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> I know what analogy and metaphor mean, and you did neither one. I didn't accuse you of making a grammer mistake, I showed were you misrepresented the definiton of "indoctrination" whether intentional or not. Your post is based on the premise that indoctrination by definition preys on weak minded people, and you're wrong.
> 
> As far as my mis-spelling of "certain", I type really fast, and I don't always re-read my posts.



Whoa.....sorry.... I did not try to define Indoctrination...No where did I say...."Indoctrination, by definition, prays on weak minded people..."
String you can't go around a try to switch what is really said to what you think was said.


----------



## stringmusic (Mar 8, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Whoa.....sorry.... I did not try to define Indoctrination...No where did I say...."Indoctrination, by definition, prays on weak minded people..."
> String you can't go around a try to switch what is really said to what you think was said.


Here's your quote again....


bullethead said:


> Like the lions, indoctrination pounces on the young, weak, sick, exhausted and elderly every chance it gets.



If you would have said "certain people use indoctrination to pounce on the..... every chance they get" you would have been correct in your statement. In this case, you said "indoctrination pounces...." which presumes the definition by stating what indoctrination does.

It's really not a big deal, other than you think people that believe in God are somehow evil for doing it.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Mar 8, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I think if you participate in one, you can expect the other.....
> 
> 
> 
> You probably just appreciated what was being said in your own way.  Replace "godly" with whatever adjectives could be included in that term, and it's a decent concept.



Yeah, I expect it... and you're right about replacing the word. I'm obviously not going to be a godly leader, but a respectable one, yes.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Mar 8, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Do you really think your brain was deprived of oxygen that bad? Sounds like God was speaking to you through a servant, and you didn't like it very much. Lack of oxygen making the message more "palatable" is a pretty bad excuse though.
> 
> Just be like ambush and say that believing in God would make you feel stupid and silly.



I haven't played full court basketball in 12 years.... I was light headed... And I didn't say that I felt a movement within the depth of my soul or I felt the presence of the holy spirit.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Mar 8, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Here's your quote again....
> 
> 
> If you would have said "certain people use indoctrination to pounce on the..... every chance they get" you would have been correct in your statement. In this case, you said "indoctrination pounces...." which presumes the definition by stating what indoctrination does.
> ...



I think the "certain people" was implied by the place that he posted the word.... I'd say 99% of christians.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 8, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Here's your quote again....
> 
> 
> If you would have said "certain people use indoctrination to pounce on the..... every chance they get" you would have been correct in your statement. In this case, you said "indoctrination pounces...." which presumes the definition by stating what indoctrination does.
> ...



I stand by my statement.

And in typical fashion you add in something that was not said to end your post so that it would seem like I said believers in God are evil for doing it......but as usual it didn't happen that way, wasn't said at all.
Indoctrination is a tool and used by many.


----------



## stringmusic (Mar 8, 2013)

bullethead said:


> And in typical fashion you add in something that was not said to end your post so that it would seem like I said believers in God are evil for doing it......but as usual it didn't happen that way, wasn't said at all.
> Indoctrination is a tool and used by many.



In a forum where everyone knows you're an atheist, and you're talking to another non-believer about the message he heard from a pastor.

 You're going to tell me that wasn't what you meant by that statement?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 8, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> In a forum where everyone knows you're an atheist, and you're talking to another non-believer about the message he heard from a pastor.
> 
> You're going to tell me that wasn't what you meant by that statement?



Yes. No where did I mention evil.
Indoctrination is used as a tool by many. Whether it is good,evil or indifferent is an individuals assessment. I did not include or imply any of those things.


----------



## stringmusic (Mar 8, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Yes. No where did I mention evil.
> Indoctrination is used as a tool by many. Whether it is good,evil or indifferent is an individuals assessment. I did not include or imply any of those things.



Really? You didn't imply it was evil? 

What, exactly do you consider "pounces on the young, weak, sick, exhausted and elderly"? Sounds pretty evil to me.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 8, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Really? You didn't imply it was evil?
> 
> What, exactly do you consider "pounces on the young, weak, sick, exhausted and elderly"? Sounds pretty evil to me.



Then lions are evil


----------



## bullethead (Mar 8, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Really? You didn't imply it was evil?
> 
> What, exactly do you consider "pounces on the young, weak, sick, exhausted and elderly"? Sounds pretty evil to me.



I consider those easy pickings but not the only candidates.


----------



## ted_BSR (Mar 8, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> I started in a basketball league at one of the mega churches last week. We just had our 10 year high school reunion... and 5 of us that played some elementary, middle and high school ball together put up a team. I was asked to play and gladly jumped at the opportunity.
> 
> In the middle of our first game the coordinator spoke about how he saw the ministry of the league going and the part he'd have over the next several Tuesday nights. He said that each week between games he'd be talking about how we as men need to lead in a godly way...
> 
> ...



It sounds to me like God used basketball to soften you a bit, and then told you something that he felt it was important for you to hear.


----------



## mtnwoman (Mar 8, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I've never heard anything like that.



Me, either. Actually I think it is the open minded..


----------



## mtnwoman (Mar 8, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> I haven't played full court basketball in 12 years.... I was light headed... And I didn't say that I felt a movement within the depth of my soul or I felt the presence of the holy spirit.



When I'm light headed, I feel weak....and probably would be.  That's in my flesh though, not in my spirit....will that make you not want to play basketball again because your physical body felt like it did? Is your brain/heart still willing to play again?

Hey I bet Rick Flare as 'strong' as he is couldn't battle a lion.....even in his prime. Anybody here think they could?


----------



## mtnwoman (Mar 8, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Really? You didn't imply it was evil?
> 
> What, exactly do you consider "pounces on the young, weak, sick, exhausted and elderly"? Sounds pretty evil to me.



Sounds like people take humbleness and kindness as a weakness and can be easily overtaken...I find that to be true in my life and my daughter says, she takes it the same way. I took it the same way, string. I know exactly what was meant by that statement.  Actually, what it is, is that the lion is pretty much at the top of food chain in the jungle....but most animals are that way aren't they? Some people though, just don't take advantage of the weak, whoever they are (the weak) or even the elderly...but it depends on whomever 'the lion' would like to devour....satan runs around seeking whomever he can devour.  It's all in discerning of spirits, ain't it?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 9, 2013)

The devil has you misinformed. Lions live in the plains and grasslands. "King of the Jungle" is just a saying indoctrinated by Satan to fool the easily fooled.


----------



## mtnwoman (Mar 9, 2013)

bullethead said:


> The devil has you misinformed. Lions live in the plains and grasslands. "King of the Jungle" is just a saying indoctrinated by Satan to fool the easily fooled.



Well, wherever they live, they do prey on the weaker animals that can't defend themselves. Doesn't mean we should, nor should we consider others weak for what they believe differently than what we believe.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 10, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> Well, wherever they live, they do prey on the weaker animals that can't defend themselves. Doesn't mean we should, nor should we consider others weak for what they believe differently than what we believe.



Right. Agreed.
What I said about the weak was not that a person is weak if they believe in something different than me. What I said and meant was if a person is young, not knowing any better,  are more susceptible to Indoctrination(of any kind). If they are weak( either minded or run down) they are more susceptible, elderly(people really start thinking about the end)...more susceptible, sick/exhausted( diagnosis with deadly/terminal/life threatening diseases) makes a person more susceptible to be willing to hear things...change things...do things that they normally didn't or won't do.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 10, 2013)

I know the PTL Club bilked elderly investors. My grandmother donated money to them even though my dad persuaded her to give to her local church instead. I reckon their daily indoctrination on the TV screen daily, got to her vulnerability.


----------



## Asath (Mar 10, 2013)

Roget’s – “Indoctrinate, v.t. inculcate; brainwash.”

Synonyms in modern usage, you see.  Cherry-picking portions of ‘definitions’ is disingenuous, and serves not to enlighten but to bully and sow an air of superior knowledge when such a thing is not the case.

“And in typical fashion you add in something that was not said to end your post so that it would seem like I said believers in God are evil for doing it......but as usual it didn't happen that way, wasn't said at all.”  

Okay.  Bullet didn’t say it.  I will --   Indoctrination, of the religious kind, is begun in early childhood, is aimed only at the total obedience and control of that child throughout his or her life, and is, ipso facto, by definition, evil.

Removing the choices that the world offers from a developing child, in favor of installing, through threat of punishment, only your own choices is little more than child abuse, and is no different in any way than raising that child as a neo-Nazi or an incipient suicide bomber.

Indoctrination takes the form of single-mindedness,  and denies that there are choices and alternatives.  To deny choice to a developing mind is controlling, abusive, totalitarian, dictatorial, selfish, and, YES, EVIL.

Fortunately for our children, it is nigh on impossible to isolate them completely from actual information, and it may take the ‘indoctrinated’  far longer than their peers, who are encouraged to learn and grow their own wings and fulfill what THEY feel is their path in life, to see that the world is actually full of promise and possibility, and is not actually limited by the crippled outlooks of their trainers.

‘The World is Flat, Because Daddy Said So” = Evil.  “The World is Odd, And Needs Your Best Try at Figuring It Out” = Good.


----------



## mtnwoman (Mar 10, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Right. Agreed.
> What I said about the weak was not that a person is weak if they believe in something different than me. What I said and meant was if a person is young, not knowing any better,  are more susceptible to Indoctrination(of any kind). If they are weak( either minded or run down) they are more susceptible, elderly(people really start thinking about the end)...more susceptible, sick/exhausted( diagnosis with deadly/terminal/life threatening diseases) makes a person more susceptible to be willing to hear things...change things...do things that they normally didn't or won't do.



Oh I definately agree that some people prey on others, ie elderly and children, where as we should be having mercy and grace on them. But strong people can be taken advantage of, too. I don't consider myself a weak person, but yet I was assaulted and robbed by a man, who of course was physically stronger than me. I was relentless in putting him behind bars for 8 years and collected every penny and more than he took from me. The only thing I lost that I could not retrieve that meant anything to me was my granddaddy's german luger (sp?) and a 38. But I got money for them.


----------



## mtnwoman (Mar 10, 2013)

Asath said:


> ‘The World is Flat, Because Daddy Said So” = Evil.  “The World is Odd, And Needs Your Best Try at Figuring It Out” = Good.



Perhaps daddy was taught that by his geography, science, or history teacher, eh?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 10, 2013)

Daddy probably reads the Bible too


----------



## mtnwoman (Mar 10, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Daddy probably reads the Bible too



So people who once believed the earth is flat were only the bible readers?


----------



## Asath (Mar 11, 2013)

Not at all.  But experience teaches that people who are consistently, persistently, willfully and militantly ignorant have a tendency to remain so.


----------



## Mako22 (Mar 11, 2013)

Mega church? I doubt you heard anything close to the word of God in one of those entertainment centers. What we do at our church is invite folks in for a meal or play and then we preach fire and ......... to them for 45 minutes from the mouth of a leather lunged screaming man of God at them. Folks get under conviction and then get saved.


----------



## jmharris23 (Mar 11, 2013)

Woodsman69 said:


> Mega church? I doubt you heard anything close to the word of God in one of those entertainment centers. What we do at our church is invite folks in for a meal or play and then we preach fire and ......... to them for 45 minutes from the mouth of a leather lunged screaming man of God at them. Folks get under conviction and then get saved.



That oughta do it! 

I swear reading the posts in this thread makes me think I am in the dang crazy house


----------



## stringmusic (Mar 11, 2013)

Asath said:


> Roget’s – “Indoctrinate, v.t. inculcate; brainwash.”
> 
> Synonyms in modern usage, you see.  Cherry-picking portions of ‘definitions’ is disingenuous, and serves not to enlighten but to bully and sow an air of superior knowledge when such a thing is not the case.


I didn't cherry-pick anything. There was a misrepresentation of the word "indoctrination", I pointed it out.



> “And in typical fashion you add in something that was not said to end your post so that it would seem like I said believers in God are evil for doing it......but as usual it didn't happen that way, wasn't said at all.”
> 
> Okay.  Bullet didn’t say it.  I will --   Indoctrination, of the religious kind, is begun in early childhood, is aimed only at the total obedience and control of that child throughout his or her life, and is, ipso facto, by definition, evil.
> 
> ...



Yea, we know, religious people are evil for teaching their children what they believe to be the greatest gift possible.

BTW, you're completely wrong in your assesment.

You speak in absolutes without added qualifications, those kinds of diatribes will have you come off looking silly.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Mar 11, 2013)

That was funny. I don't have any problem with church, or the mega church. Like I said, it was acceptable, polite, not pushy. 


IMO Indoctrination is not good. I realize that most of the US sees no problem and even views christian indoctrination of children as necessary because it's not for something bad. Of course that view of it not being bad is completely subjective. Sure the children aren't being trained to murder... and for the most part no one is forced... But I think the point of indoctrination is to reduce the need to force anyone... Children don't need to be forced to believe things because they are so receptive and moldable. 

I see the indoctrination (whether from childhood or not) in the responses that there was something at work on/in me. I've heard it all... I've SAID it all... I've felt it all... With the same conviction that you all have.. I remember being at youth retreats and feeling the hair on my neck stand up, being told, knowing that it was the holy spirit in the room. I have that same feeling at concerts or watching really good movies... After hearing it so much for so long, it is whatever you've been told it is....


----------



## stringmusic (Mar 11, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> That was funny. I don't have any problem with church, or the mega church. Like I said, it was acceptable, polite, not pushy.
> 
> 
> IMO Indoctrination is not good. I realize that most of the US sees no problem and even views christian indoctrination of children as necessary because it's not for something bad. Of course that view of it not being bad is completely subjective. Sure the children aren't being trained to murder... and for the most part no one is forced... But I think the point of indoctrination is to reduce the need to force anyone... Children don't need to be forced to believe things because they are so receptive and moldable.
> ...



You indoctrinate your daughter every day.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Mar 11, 2013)

I guess that's true.


----------



## stringmusic (Mar 11, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> I guess that's true.



It is.

BUT, it's not a bad thing. You teach her what you think is best for her, whether someone else thinks it is or not.

It doesn't matter what she thinks, you're forcing her to do certian things you think is best for her and her future. 

You're not sitting her down in a dark room with a chair and a spotlight, forcing her not to lie,steal,cheat, etc, etc, as Bullet and Asath would have you believe Christians do. But if you teach her not to do those things, you're indoctrinating her, which, IMO, is a good thing.

I plan on indoctrinating my son into the Christian faith, but I'm not going to hog tie him and put him under the crawlspace if he chooses not to believe.


----------



## Huntinfool (Mar 11, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> You indoctrinate your daughter every day.



Absolutely, 100%, dead on accurate and a fact that people who are "anti-indoctrination" will deny till their dieing breath.  

If you have children and they live with you....you are indoctrinating them whether you admit it or not.  They are, by their very nature, watching, internalizing and emulating everything you do, say and believe.

The only difference between many of these guys and me is that I willingly admit that I'm indoctrinating my children and I'm glad for it and proud of it.  IMO, it is my primary responsibility as a parent to "indoctrinate" my children.  

But what do I know...I'm just a weak minded follower of a figment of my imagination that I look to simply because my emotions have caused me to look for comfort.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Mar 11, 2013)

I was never hog tied either. My parents weren't forceful with it but it was an expectation that I felt I had to live up to. It might as well have been forced. It wasn't forced... it just WAS. Which isn't all that much different.

Don't lie, tell the truth, brush your teeth... I guess that is all indoctrination too from what you're saying. I have evidence as to why those things are good. Brushing teeth... Eating your vegetables... Not eating a bunch of sweets before bed... While indoctrination of any faith is really more about the why than the what.


----------



## Huntinfool (Mar 11, 2013)

> Removing the choices that the world offers from a developing child, in favor of installing, through threat of punishment, only your own choices is little more than child abuse, and is no different in any way than raising that child as a neo-Nazi or an incipient suicide bomber.



There is no definition of "indoctrination" that I'm aware of that includes, as a requirement, threat of punishment.  

I indoctrinate my children in the ways of the Lord every single day.  I have never once threatened them with punishment if they have a question.

I punish them for disobedience and defiance just like most parents (christian or not).  

I am glad to know where you're coming from and to get a little more clarification on how twisted your world really is though.  It's good to know that, in your mind, I'm equivalent to the Uni-bomber and Hitler all wrapped up in one nice little package.

Hyperbole much???  You'd do yourself and your credibility a service to opt for a little less hyperbole and a little more humility in your posts.  We're all very well aware that you've got it all figured out.


----------



## centerpin fan (Mar 11, 2013)

Woodsman69 said:


> Mega church? I doubt you heard anything close to the word of God in one of those entertainment centers. What we do at our church is invite folks in for a meal or play and then we preach fire and ......... to them for 45 minutes from the mouth of a leather lunged screaming man of God at them. Folks get under conviction and then get saved.



I'd like that tattooed on my thigh.


----------



## Huntinfool (Mar 11, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> I was never hog tied either. My parents weren't forceful with it but it was an expectation that I felt I had to live up to. It might as well have been forced. It wasn't forced... it just WAS. Which isn't all that much different.
> 
> Don't lie, tell the truth, brush your teeth... I guess that is all indoctrination too from what you're saying. I have evidence as to why those things are good. Brushing teeth... Eating your vegetables... Not eating a bunch of sweets before bed... While indoctrination of any faith is really more about the why than the what.



Does your kid like to hunt or fish?

Does your kid like to watch NASCAR (or whatever it is that you watch on TV)?

Do you ever see any of your worst traits (like a quick temper, etc) coming out in your kid?


They are watching....and learning....every single day, and it's not just "brush your teeth" that they are learning.  They are learning what's important to you.  What you give value to.  They are learning what is "ok" and "not ok" to do or say based on what you do.  Whether you explicitely teach it to them or not is irrelevent.  They are being indoctrinated into your belief system.  There is no possible way around that.

I just happen to be intentionally doing it and what I'm teaching my kids is something that isn't part of your belief system.  So, as our friend said, it MUST, by definition be evil.......or something like that.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Mar 11, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> The only difference between many of these guys and me is that I willingly admit that I'm indoctrinating my children and I'm glad for it and proud of it.  IMO, it is my primary responsibility as a parent to "indoctrinate" my children.



I never looked at it that way... but yes, I agree, I am indoctrinating my child in the way of life in general. Not spirituality. Which is everyone's right to do..... with one disclaimer... 

Within reason

Parents can't indoctrinate their children to do what our society views as bad... If they get caught, they'll get in trouble. That can be any number of things, use your imagination. 

Society currently says that raising children to be christians is ok. I, also, don't personally see anything terrible about it. But this societal acceptance is sure to be frowned upon one day..... just like so many other things that were normal and accepted at one point in time now aren't.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Mar 11, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> Does your kid like to hunt or fish?
> 
> Does your kid like to watch NASCAR (or whatever it is that you watch on TV)?
> 
> ...



Yeah I got that.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Mar 11, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I'd like that tattooed on my thigh.



face... Tyson it.


----------



## Huntinfool (Mar 11, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> But this societal acceptance is sure to be frowned upon one day..... just like so many other things that were normal and accepted at one point in time now aren't.



That, you're absolutely right about.  In fact, I might argue that we're already there.  We just haven't gotten to the legal banning of it yet.

Did you know that there's a very strong biblical case showing that's exactly what we should expect?


----------



## TripleXBullies (Mar 11, 2013)

That it becomes unacceptable? I know. Anyone thinking up the whole thing would have expected that... Because it happened to all of the other beliefs.. Of which you currently believe were MADE UP.


----------



## Huntinfool (Mar 11, 2013)

Touche pussycat!

Are there any other religions, that you're aware of, though that DID think that up and include in their "prophecies"?  If it's such an obvious ending, wouldn't they all have an ending that included increased persecution and violence leading up to the final day?

That's actually me asking a legit question...I don't know the answer to it.  But I don't recall that any of the major religions have a view toward that.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Mar 11, 2013)

I would venture to say yes but I don't know. I don't think anyone making up a story like what's in the bible was a moron. They've done a pretty good job... They covered a hole that was left open by many others before them.


----------



## Huntinfool (Mar 11, 2013)

Maybe a topic for another day.  But I'm curious what you think their motivation for making up such an elaborate movement was.  Would like to hear the logical explanation for it some day.  Probably another thread though.


----------



## stringmusic (Mar 11, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I'd like that tattooed on my thigh.





BTW, I know a guy that can do it, he just got out last week, he's been practicing for years now, PM me for his info.


----------



## stringmusic (Mar 11, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> Maybe a topic for another day.  But I'm curious what you think their motivation for making up such an elaborate movement was.  Would like to hear the logical explanation for it some day.  Probably another thread though.



Good thread topic!


----------



## bullethead (Mar 11, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> So people who once believed the earth is flat were only the bible readers?



Who said that? Honestly show me where I said that. If not please stop responding to my posts with your added commentary to make it seem like I said something I did not say. I tried last week to put up with it but no more. I have never put anyone on an ignore list ever. Your the first.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Mar 11, 2013)

Yikes


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 11, 2013)

Woodsman69 said:


> Mega church? I doubt you heard anything close to the word of God in one of those entertainment centers. What we do at our church is invite folks in for a meal or play and then we preach fire and ......... to them for 45 minutes from the mouth of a leather lunged screaming man of God at them. Folks get under conviction and then get saved.



Does God ever scream at you directly about the evil mega churches?


----------



## mtnwoman (Mar 11, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Who said that? Honestly show me where I said that. If not please stop responding to my posts with your added commentary to make it seem like I said something I did not say. I tried last week to put up with it but no more. I have never put anyone on an ignore list ever. Your the first.



 You only mentioned 'daddy was a bible reader, too'....you didn't mention anything else that daddy did, did you?   I don't read minds ya know. You can't just come back with something like 'and I guess daddy reads the bible, too,' and expect someone to think you meant otherwise. 

Maybe daddy drinks too much beer and thinks the earth is flat, and then he reads the bible, then he talks to aliens that tell him the earth is round.

Geez, say what you mean, don't leave it open to interpretation.

You don't have to put up with me anymore than I have to put up with you. You always pull one little tidbit out of something I say, or what others say....but lookout when someone does that to you.

I thought we were gettin' along fine...just going by what you said. So really it's no matter what I say you take offense?


----------



## mtnwoman (Mar 11, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I'd like that tattooed on my thigh.





Step away from the tattoo parlor...just step away...


----------



## bullethead (Mar 12, 2013)

Reading:


bullethead said:


> Daddy probably reads the Bible too



Comprehension:


mtnwoman said:


> You only mentioned *'daddy was a bible reader, too'*....you didn't mention anything else that daddy did, did you?   I don't read minds ya know. You can't just come back with something like *'and I guess daddy reads the bible, too,'* and expect someone to think you meant otherwise.



I was twice mis-quoted to suit your needs in the same paragraph.



Asath said:


> ‘The World is Flat, Because Daddy Said So” = Evil.  “The World is Odd, And Needs Your Best Try at Figuring It Out” = Good.





mtnwoman said:


> Perhaps daddy was taught that by his geography, science, or history teacher, eh?





bullethead said:


> Daddy probably reads the Bible too


Mine was a reply to Asath, your reply just happened to be posted before mine.

I'll put my bet on "daddy" was not taught the earth was flat by his geography, science, or history teacher.....unless "daddy" is over 400 years old.


----------



## mtnwoman (Mar 12, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Reading:
> 
> 
> Comprehension:
> ...



Well I was wondering about that 400 years old thing, too.

I guess I just don't get your post(or asath's) where you posted to asath then. Please explain it to me. If 'the earth is flat because daddy said so=evil'...would that be nowadays asath was referring to. If so i'd say that was ignorance and not evil, then.
If he meant way back when 'daddy' did believe the earth was flat, then what would reading the bible have to do with it? since a lot of people believed it was flat...and that still wouldn't be evil, wouldn't that be ignorance, too?

It's not a big deal, I just couldn't make a connection with the earth being flat and reading the bible, that's all. And I wasn't trying to misquote you, since I actually backquoted what you said and replied to what that backquote said. I guess, as usual, I just didn't get it.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Mar 13, 2013)

Second game last night... Although it was only a few minutes long, there was a message to what he said, not just setting the tone for the rest of the season like last week. I wasn't quite as winded because I didn't end play the last few minutes of the first half... The message was much more agitating this time.... Maybe it's just because I was thinking about this thread this time.


----------



## ted_BSR (Mar 17, 2013)

Asath said:


> Not at all.  But experience teaches that people who are consistently, persistently, willfully and militantly ignorant have a tendency to remain so.



Guess you are stuck then. Oh well.


----------



## ted_BSR (Mar 17, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Second game last night... Although it was only a few minutes long, there was a message to what he said, not just setting the tone for the rest of the season like last week. I wasn't quite as winded because I didn't end play the last few minutes of the first half... The message was much more agitating this time.... Maybe it's just because I was thinking about this thread this time.



What was the message?


----------



## Asath (Mar 17, 2013)

“It sounds to me like God used basketball to soften you a bit, and then told you something that he felt it was important for you to hear.”

This sort of thing is usually known as a drive-by.  If I understand the intent of the board, and the admins of it correctly, the reason they set up forums such as this one is to allow folks to discuss and opine and often discourse at length concerning the abstract WITHOUT the requirement of toeing the line of rigid single-mindedness expressed either as mockery or outright condemnation.  

But there is no discussion, thought, or observation expressed in this statement.  The topic at hand is not addressed, at all – not even casually.  There is certainly an opinion expressed – a single point of view – but this is couched in the form of a denigration, an assumption, and an expression that presumes what an imaginary being was thinking and intending, with the writer as the sole human mouthpiece.  This sort of thing can hardly be considered worthy of a response in this particular forum.      

“Guess you are stuck then. Oh well. “

Two strikes.  Another ‘drive-by’ attack.  Not argued, not observed, not justified, not even vaguely referenced to anything that might obtain to the topic at hand.  Just a random insult handed out without thought or regard.  

If little more than playground bullying is the level of intellect that obtains to the responses here, then it seems to me that there are huge numbers of opportunities to stay silent that are being missed.

If there is a justifiable, well researched and well argued thought to express, then by all means carry on with that good work, and bring it to light so that we may all examine that thought in good faith.  If not, please re-read the paragraph above.


----------



## JB0704 (Mar 18, 2013)

Asath said:


> If little more than playground bullying is the level of intellect that obtains to the responses here, then it seems to me that there are huge numbers of opportunities to stay silent that are being missed..



Have you read your own posts?  Embedded in each of them is at least one, often many, comments which are intended to belittle and mock the intelligence of the opposing point of view.  And, you have your own "amen choir," which translates well to the playground scenario as well.

I often enjoy your posts, and am challenged to think.  However, I don't have a chip on my shoulder about my faith, so I am able to look beyond the insults.  I have concluded, perhaps incorrectly, that you have made a habit of winning arguments by getting your opponent flustered with insults and distracting conversation from the primary topic.



Asath said:


> If there is a justifiable, well researched and well argued thought to express, then by all means carry on with that good work, and bring it to light so that we may all examine that thought in good faith.  If not, please re-read the paragraph above.



Hmmm....we are discussing an aetheist (maybe agnostic) playing basketball in a church league?  What research is there to have?  I just thought the thread was a little peice of freindly discussion between opposing perspectives.

My thoughts were, and are, that he initially liked the message because he has recently gone through a situation where his personal demands have been increased dramatically, and anybody in that position can appreciate the concept that men should be "respectable" (which is translated as "godly" in religious circles, and being at a church function, that is the language they will use).

I don't think he is at risk of losing his non-religion.  I don't think he is being indoctrinated.  I think he is enjoying basketball, and heard a message which "clicked" to his personal situation even when viewed from the perspective of his belief system.

We can all agree that men should live with integrity, honesty, decency, and be respectable leaders in our work and homes.  Regardless of whether or not we believe in God.

But, that is my knee-jerk reaction, based on zero research, and a lot of life-experience (I was in the OP's shoes myself for about 5 years, and totally understand the need for men to be respectable).


----------



## TripleXBullies (Mar 18, 2013)

ted_BSR said:


> What was the message?



That men can't be good at anything without god. Can't be good leaders, husbands, fathers....


----------



## TripleXBullies (Mar 18, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I don't think he is at risk of losing his non-religion.  I don't think he is being indoctrinated.  I think he is enjoying basketball, and heard a message which "clicked" to his personal situation even when viewed from the perspective of his belief system.
> 
> We can all agree that men should live with integrity, honesty, decency, and be respectable leaders in our work and homes.  Regardless of whether or not we believe in God.



I don't think I'm being indoctrinated. I felt like my impaired judgement was allowing my childhood (~20 years) indoctrination to take a hold of me. 

When you mentioned it, the fact that in general, the message from the first game was a good one, may have been it.


----------



## JB0704 (Mar 18, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> That men can't be good at anything without god. Can't be good leaders, husbands, fathers....



Oh....well, seems part 2 wasn't going to connect like part 1 did.

Part 2 requires "good" to be defined from a religious perspective.


----------



## gemcgrew (Mar 18, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I often enjoy your posts, and am challenged to think.  However, I don't have a chip on my shoulder about my faith, so I am able to look beyond the insults.  I have concluded, perhaps incorrectly, that you have made a habit of winning arguments by getting your opponent flustered with insults and distracting conversation from the primary topic.


It makes for a good addition to homeschooling curriculum, especially in regards to syllogisms. I should post some of the collected results. Would make for a fun thread.


----------



## Jeff Phillips (Mar 18, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Second game last night... Although it was only a few minutes long, there was a message to what he said, not just setting the tone for the rest of the season like last week. I wasn't quite as winded because I didn't end play the last few minutes of the first half... The message was much more agitating this time.... Maybe it's just because I was thinking about this thread this time.



Church softball led me back into the fold. Sports might just work for you too.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Mar 18, 2013)

Work for me? Sports might just be my downfall... Is more like it...


----------



## ted_BSR (Mar 19, 2013)

Asath said:


> “It sounds to me like God used basketball to soften you a bit, and then told you something that he felt it was important for you to hear.”
> 
> This sort of thing is usually known as a drive-by.  If I understand the intent of the board, and the admins of it correctly, the reason they set up forums such as this one is to allow folks to discuss and opine and often discourse at length concerning the abstract WITHOUT the requirement of toeing the line of rigid single-mindedness expressed either as mockery or outright condemnation.
> 
> ...



Asath - the discussion with you has been dead for a long time. I figured out long ago that you are not interested in discussion. I thought about those comments quite a bit. They are based on observing your posts.

Your constant bashing is merely disguised with your long drawn out posts that you call intellect. I call them, "Asath really likes to type."

I actually read this one. Same old same old.


----------



## mtnwoman (Mar 19, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> Did you know that there's a very strong biblical case showing that's exactly what we should expect?



Amen!!!


----------



## Asath (Mar 20, 2013)

Perhaps you all are correct.  

Perhaps some incredibly powerful intelligence just gathered up a bit of dust from his shelves or the dandruff from his comb and simply willed the universe as we see it into existence, with us, each and all of us, even today, fully included and fully formed, and completely anticipated.

Everything that has ever happened was known, decided, orchestrated, and written like the most immense and complex musical piece ever authored -- all in one moment of Creation.  Every single life, death, triumph, defeat, struggle, tragedy, disaster, galactic collision, birth and explosion of star, x-ray, cancer cell, gamma ray, nebula, drowning, asteroid collision, starvation victim, and Mars landing.  All known and planned ahead of time -- for a purpose known only to the preachers, and available to everyone at the bargain-basement price of their total capitulation to the certainty of these preachers and only ten percent of their wealth.  Act now and you will also receive ETERNAL SALVATION!  Only after death, of course, when you are unable to seek legal recourse.

God invented the three-point shot!  Who knew?  

It's all clear now folks.  You've convinced me.  God invented basketball, at the moment of creation, knowing that this moment would eventually arrive . . . 

I wonder why the Bible doesn't have any advice on how to execute a proper pick-and-roll?


----------



## JB0704 (Mar 21, 2013)

Asath said:


> God invented the three-point shot!  Who knew?



And, thankfully, the catcher's mitt.  Then, of course, was the fall......and through that tragic event, the world was given soccer.


----------



## ted_BSR (Mar 31, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> I never looked at it that way... but yes, I agree, I am indoctrinating my child in the way of life in general. Not spirituality. Which is everyone's right to do..... with one disclaimer...
> 
> Within reason
> 
> ...



It is prophesized. Christians will be persecuted for our beliefs.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Apr 1, 2013)

It's easy to say that's going to happen when it happened to every other religious belief in the history of religious beliefs. It will fizzle out just like the rest of them.


----------



## Four (Apr 1, 2013)

I've got a few comments

1.  On the OP (Triple X)

It is an interesting phenomena, similar to if I come home mentally exhausted from work, I might not be able to come up with as many counter points when my wife wants to spend money.

Or if you woke me up in the middle of the night and said the squareroot of 16 is 8, i might be like "yea, of course" 

2. On Indoctirnation
in·doc·tri·nate - Teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically: "broadcasting was a vehicle for indoctrinating the masses".

Just because someone accepts something without thinking critically doesn't mean it was taught uncritically.

Example 1. - Indoctrination

"All lawyers are evil, just accept it"

Example 2. - Not Indoctrination

"Lawyers are bad, because x, y, z. Other people believe they are good, because of a, b, c, but i disagree because of d, e, f."

3. On religion and poverty.



Huntinfool said:


> Here's some more ammo for ya...
> 
> "The Lord is close to the broken-hearted.  He saves those who are crushed in spirit."
> 
> So, you don't really have to be weak....just really sad and needy.  Glad I could be of help.



Makes sense why on average, the poorest areas are the most religious. Also why prisons tend to be filled with religious.


----------



## ted_BSR (Apr 1, 2013)

Four said:


> I've got a few comments
> 
> 1.  On the OP (Triple X)
> 
> ...



So, middle class and rich folks who don't get convicted of crimes which result in prison time are mostly athiest?

Statistics are easily bent to support one's suppositions.

Blind left handed dentists without tonsils have more mal practice suits brought against them than personal trainers who are goats.


----------



## Four (Apr 2, 2013)

ted_BSR said:


> So, middle class and rich folks who don't get convicted of crimes which result in prison time are mostly athiest?
> 
> Statistics are easily bent to support one's suppositions.
> 
> Blind left handed dentists without tonsils have more mal practice suits brought against them than personal trainers who are goats.



I'm not making any crazy axiomatic statements. He mentioned religion works best on the needy, poor, and hopeless. I figure poverty and the prison system are both areas for those to thrive, and also happen to have a disappropriate amount of religious people.

0.209% of U.S prison inmates are in prison. were as 9-15% of the united states is atheist.

This IS coorilation, not causation. But it does support the theory (that apparently comes from the bible) that the poor, needy, and hopeless are the targets...

Obviously statistics can misrepresent, its just one tool in the toolbox.


----------



## ted_BSR (Apr 3, 2013)

Four said:


> I'm not making any crazy axiomatic statements. He mentioned religion works best on the needy, poor, and hopeless. I figure poverty and the prison system are both areas for those to thrive, and also happen to have a disappropriate amount of religious people.
> 
> 0.209% of U.S prison inmates are in prison. were as 9-15% of the united states is atheist.
> 
> ...



No, you are not. You are stating your opinion, and pretending that statistical mathematics supports your opinion. It is NOT "coorilation", because that is not a word. You are also paraphrasing the Bible to support your case. If you are going to quote it, or even insinuate it, you should reference the book and verse. In the words of Asath, "No Sale!"


----------



## mtnwoman (Apr 3, 2013)

Asath said:


> Perhaps you all are correct.
> 
> Perhaps some incredibly powerful intelligence just gathered up a bit of dust from his shelves or the dandruff from his comb and simply willed the universe as we see it into existence, with us, each and all of us, even today, fully included and fully formed, and completely anticipated.
> 
> ...



God didn't invent anything....He created everything. Man invented stuff out of that creation. Do you know of anyone who ever created something out of nothing? or was the combo platter just made available to man to invent whatever?


----------



## mtnwoman (Apr 3, 2013)

Four said:


> This IS coorilation, not causation. But it does support the theory (that apparently comes from the bible) that the poor, needy, and hopeless are the targets...



Targeted for what?

All of us are poor in one area or another, it may not be money, but it could be sympathy or compassion for others. We are all needy, some of us need love, sex, pizza everyday the big catch of the century...there is something all of us need to be happy in life. All of us are hopeless...ie, when we marry the wrong person and you have children, or hope in a cure for the cancer our mother has.


----------



## Four (Apr 4, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> Targeted for what?
> 
> All of us are poor in one area or another, it may not be money, but it could be sympathy or compassion for others. We are all needy, some of us need love, sex, pizza everyday the big catch of the century...there is something all of us need to be happy in life. All of us are hopeless...ie, when we marry the wrong person and you have children, or hope in a cure for the cancer our mother has.



Targets of religion, or at least the bible. 

When i said poor i meant monetarily.


----------



## atlashunter (May 12, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> That men can't be good at anything without god. Can't be good leaders, husbands, fathers....



That would have annoyed me too. Sounds like something a brainwashed North Korean would say about the dear leader.


I'm surprised no one has brought up the religious taking advantage of the grieving the loss of a loved one in their moment of weakness.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (May 12, 2013)

Four said:


> 0.209% of U.S prison inmates are in prison. were as 9-15% of the united states is atheist.



I know I'm slow n all that stuff, I ain't getting this statement.  Did I miss something


----------

