# God, the Gospel, and Glenn Beck



## hayseed_theology (Aug 29, 2010)

Moore to the Point: "God, the Gospel, and Glenn Beck"
By Russell D. Moore


http://www.russellmoore.com/2010/08/29/god-the-gospel-and-glenn-beck/


A Mormon television star stands in front of the Lincoln Memorial and calls American Christians to revival. He assembles some evangelical celebrities to give testimonies, and then preaches a God and country revivalism that leaves the evangelicals cheering that they’ve heard the gospel, right there in the nation’s capital.

The news media pronounces him the new leader of America’s Christian conservative movement, and a flock of America’s Christian conservatives have no problem with that.

If you’d told me that ten years ago, I would have assumed it was from the pages of an evangelical apocalyptic novel about the end-times. But it’s not. It’s from this week’s headlines. And it is a scandal.

Fox News commentator Glenn Beck, of course, is that Mormon at the center of all this. Beck isn’t the problem. He’s an entrepreneur, he’s brilliant, and, hats off to him, he knows his market. Latter-day Saints have every right to speak, with full religious liberty, in the public square. I’m quite willing to work with Mormons on various issues, as citizens working for the common good. What concerns me here is not what this says about Beck or the “Tea Party” or any other entertainment or political figure. What concerns me is about what this says about the Christian churches in the United States.

It’s taken us a long time to get here, in this plummet from Francis Schaeffer to Glenn Beck. In order to be this gullible, American Christians have had to endure years of vacuous talk about undefined “revival” and “turning America back to God” that was less about anything uniquely Christian than about, at best, a generically theistic civil religion and, at worst, some partisan political movement.

Rather than cultivating a Christian vision of justice and the common good (which would have, by necessity, been nuanced enough to put us sometimes at odds with our political allies), we’ve relied on populist God-and-country sloganeering and outrage-generating talking heads. We’ve tolerated heresy and buffoonery in our leadership as long as with it there is sufficient political “conservatism” and a sufficient commercial venue to sell our books and products.

Too often, and for too long, American “Christianity” has been a political agenda in search of a gospel useful enough to accommodate it. There is a liberation theology of the Left, and there is also a liberation theology of the Right, and both are at heart mammon worship. The liberation theology of the Left often wants a Barabbas, to fight off the oppressors as though our ultimate problem were the reign of Rome and not the reign of death. The liberation theology of the Right wants a golden calf, to represent religion and to remind us of all the economic security we had in Egypt. Both want a Caesar or a Pharaoh, not a Messiah.

Leaders will always be tempted to bypass the problem behind the problems: captivity to sin, bondage to the accusations of the demonic powers, the sentence of death. That’s why so many of our Christian superstars smile at crowds of thousands, reassuring them that they don’t like to talk about sin. That’s why other Christian celebrities are seen to be courageous for fighting their culture wars, while they carefully leave out the sins most likely to be endemic to the people paying the bills in their movements.

Where there is no gospel, something else will fill the void: therapy, consumerism, racial or class resentment, utopian politics, crazy conspiracy theories of the left, crazy conspiracy theories of the right; anything will do. The prophet Isaiah warned us of such conspiracies replacing the Word of God centuries ago (Is. 8:12–20). As long as the Serpent’s voice is heard, “You shall not surely die,” the powers are comfortable.

This is, of course, not new. Our Lord Jesus faced this test when Satan took him to a high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the earth, and their glory. Satan did not mind surrendering his authority to Jesus. He didn’t mind a universe without pornography or Islam or abortion or nuclear weaponry. Satan did not mind Judeo-Christian values. He wasn’t worried about “revival” or “getting back to God.” What he opposes was the gospel of Christ crucified and resurrected for the sins of the world.

We used to sing that old gospel song, “I will cling to an old rugged cross, and exchange it some day for a crown.”  The scandalous scene at the Lincoln Memorial indicates that many of us want to exchange it in too soon. To Jesus, Satan offered power and glory. To us, all he needs offer is celebrity and attention.

Mormonism and Mammonism are contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ. They offer another Lord Jesus than the One offered in the Scriptures and Christian tradition, and another way to approach him. An embrace of these tragic new vehicles for the old Gnostic heresy is unloving to our Mormon friends and secularist neighbors, and to the rest of the watching world. Any “revival” that is possible without the Lord Jesus Christ is a “revival” of a different kind of spirit than the Spirit of Christ (1 Jn. 4:1-3).

The answer to this scandal isn’t a retreat, as some would have it, to an allegedly apolitical isolation. Such attempts lead us right back here, in spades, to a hyper-political wasteland. If the churches are not forming consciences, consciences will be formed by the status quo, including whatever demagogues can yell the loudest or cry the hardest. The answer isn’t a narrowing sectarianism, retreating further and further into our enclaves. The answer includes local churches that preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, and disciple their congregations to know the difference between the kingdom of God and the latest political whim.

It’s sad to see so many Christians confusing Mormon politics or American nationalism with the gospel of Jesus Christ. But, don’t get me wrong, I’m not pessimistic. Jesus will build his church, and he will build it on the gospel. He doesn’t need American Christianity to do it. Vibrant, loving, orthodox Christianity will flourish, perhaps among the poor of Haiti or the persecuted of Sudan or the outlawed of China, but it will flourish.

And there will be a new generation, in America and elsewhere, who will be ready for a gospel that is more than just Fox News at prayer.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 29, 2010)

hayseed_theology said:


> Mormonism and Mammonism are contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ. They offer another Lord Jesus than the One offered in the Scriptures and Christian tradition, and another way to approach him. An embrace of these tragic new vehicles for the old Gnostic heresy is unloving to our Mormon friends and secularist neighbors, and to the rest of the watching world. Any “revival” that is possible without the Lord Jesus Christ is a “revival” of a different kind of spirit than the Spirit of Christ (1 Jn. 4:1-3).



And that right there is the crux of the issue and what the mainstream American "c"hristian doesn't understand.....after all, Jesus Christ is in the name of every Mormon Church.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 29, 2010)

Moore's a cheery soul, isn't he?  Does Mohler agree with him?  

This strikes me as much ado about nothing.


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## Diogenes (Aug 30, 2010)

Wow.  

I’m not sure what to do with this one Hayseed.  Seems that we have a habit of viewing just about everything the same way, except for the conclusions.  Makes for a lively discussion, most times, so heck, I’ll play  . . .

To start, I didn’t know that Beck was a Mormon, but now that you point that out it does help put some things into perspective.  I’m not much for television, and have only seen the man perform a few times, but my conclusion was much the same as yours – he seems to have his head screwed on straight concerning the crux of the issues, but his presentation is over-the-top zealous (causing one to cringe more than a bit), and he seems unable to form even a single sentence without the word ‘I’ in it (self-aggrandizement writ large).  One walks away unable to decide if he is actually that passionate about his topics or if he is simply a performer in a sideshow, hoping for a paying audience. Or both.  

And your observation that much, if not most, of modern politics and religion of any and all stripes has devolved into just this sort of street performance is spot on.  We find ourselves doing little more than gasping at the hubris of such displays, but at the same time are unable to take our eyes off of it – it seems both a wonder and a horror at the same time, and you find yourself unable to decide whether to laugh until you fall down or take up arms and simply stop the fool.

Sober, thinking folks realize right up front that any ‘call to arms,’ if you will, rallied up by any zealot whatsoever, is automatically suspect.  History has almost always demonstrated that whatever it was that such folks were so afraid of has always been less of an evil than their proposed solutions.

The cynicism involved in coupling ‘God and Country’ into a single battle cry was the obvious motivation behind the First Amendment – “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion; or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;”  -- that seems pretty clearly written.  Law and religion were meant to be separated.  Idealistic, perhaps, but the Constitution was nothing if not optimistic, and has tended to let us fight over just what the ‘ideal’ might be ever since.

So, up to this point, in just about every sense we agree – in a nutshell, people, especially those who appoint themselves to ‘lead,’ are largely self-interested manipulators and have pretty much always been.

Where we diverge, of course, is in the conclusion that it is the ‘gospel of Jesus Christ’ that is the sole and sovereign answer to this problem.  You know my position on this one, and I’m familiar with yours as well, so we won’t resolve that one in a single thread.

My thought is that it is rather wishful thinking to lament that not everyone sees things the way your own religion does, and thus conclude that the religion is still wholly correct, but maybe just not here, for these poor media-influenced and thus deluded folks.  China actively censors (or tries), Iran active censors (or tries), Russia, Cuba, Indonesia,  . . . I could go on, but you get the point – any and all attempts to preserve the ‘purity’ of an ideal has ended up failing miserably throughout all of history, and fails to this day.  Virtually everyone who has tried to stand up and declare, in effect, that, “We are right, and the rest of you poor fools are going to die in the flames of perdition for your sin of disagreement,” has been hastily sent off to find out for themselves if that is actually true.  

People tend to have a natural resistance to being pushed around by egomaniacs.  Good thing, too.

Can’t say that I know what the answer is either, but it seems pretty clear that the ‘gospel’ isn’t it, else a couple thousand years of being beat over the head with it would have maybe convinced more people.  

Personally, I just shrug my shoulders at zealots of all kinds, and then stand back and watch.  I might not have the answers they seem to seek, but then, neither do they -- so if nothing else they keep us entertained . . .


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## hayseed_theology (Aug 30, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> Moore's a cheery soul, isn't he?



He's got a quick wit and a good sense of humor, but he will get fired up over stuff from time to time.



> Does Mohler agree with him?



I would assume so.  



> This strikes me as much ado about nothing.



I think that's the point.  Many people don't see it as a big deal, but the fact that many conservative, evangelical Christians are willing to align themselves with a Mormon on issues of religion simply because it is politically or financially expedient is cause for concern.  Restoring the Judeo-Christian ethic to America is not the same thing as preaching the gospel.  The former isn't a bad thing, but the latter is the  real mission of the church."Returning to God" doesn't mean being a moral person who votes a straight Tea Party ticket.  Biblically, "returning to God"means repenting of my sin and trusting Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God who has made atonement for our sins through his death, burial, and resurrection, for the forgiveness of my sins and my hope of eternal life.


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## vanguard1 (Aug 30, 2010)

hayseed i,m glad you posted this, i did not know he (beck) was a mormon, and the mormon church is not the church of the Lord Jesus, they teach a false gospel, even thier headquarters has a golden cow inside the front of it,plus it would take days to tell of the other things that take place there. it just goes to show how weak the real christian church has become, we have no big time leaders(for lack of a better word) to stand up for us. the true gospel is bein watered down year by year while false cults take our place in standing up for what is right. it is truly the last of the last days.


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## MudDucker (Aug 30, 2010)

Beck is a Mormon, but he is not selling his version of religion.  He is selling the historical vision of America that our founders had.

Don't get caught up in the messenger, just listen to the message.  His message is right on target!


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## centerpin fan (Aug 30, 2010)

I agree completely with this:



hayseed_theology said:


> Restoring the Judeo-Christian ethic to America is not the same thing as preaching the gospel.  The former isn't a bad thing, but the latter is the  real mission of the church."Returning to God" doesn't mean being a moral person who votes a straight Tea Party ticket.  Biblically, "returning to God"means repenting of my sin and trusting Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God who has made atonement for our sins through his death, burial, and resurrection, for the forgiveness of my sins and my hope of eternal life.



… but I really don’t see the problem here:



hayseed_theology said:


> … but the fact that many conservative, evangelical Christians are willing to align themselves with a Mormon on issues of religion simply because it is politically or financially expedient is cause for concern.



I’m very familiar with Mormon theology, and I’m not a fan.  Beck is not preaching the joys of Mormonism, and the people at the rally did not go to discuss the finer points of “Doctrines and Covenants”.  I will happily align myself with a Mormon, Baptist, Catholic, Jew, Hindu, etc. on issues where we have common ground, but I don’t have to sacrifice my beliefs to do so.


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## Israel (Aug 30, 2010)

Some would say...how can the ground be common if the jesus preached is another?

I would say that.


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## Lowjack (Aug 30, 2010)

Most Churches are offering a different Christ anyways, Starting with offering someone name Jesus as the Son of God.
His Name is Yeshua not Jesus, then they offer a god that is 3 persons, that's not in the bible either, then they tell you  are saved by simply claiming grace grace, but can continue to sin and you still will go to heaven, something the bible doesn't teach.
SO WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE IF HE IS A MORMON OR A TODAY"S CHRISTIAN ?
I fail to see any difference between the two cults.
Shalom


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## centerpin fan (Aug 30, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> SO WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE IF HE IS A MORMON OR A TODAY"S CHRISTIAN ?
> I fail to see any difference between the two cults.


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## Jeffriesw (Aug 30, 2010)

Israel said:


> Some would say...how can the ground be common if the jesus preached is another?
> 
> I would say that.




Amen Brother, X's 2.


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## vanguard1 (Aug 30, 2010)

romans 10:9-10 tells a person how to be saved, it is not by works, it is not by not sinning everyone sins, the thef on the cross just asked jesus to remember him and he was saved, and that was before he rose from the dead to make salvation complete. God does not ask us to jump thru hoops for him just BELIEVE IN HIS SON.and what he did.


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## crackerdave (Aug 30, 2010)

Israel said:


> Some would say...how can the ground be common if the jesus preached is another?
> 
> I would say that.



And I would add a hearty"AMEN!"

Good thread, Hayseed - many people are jumping on Beck's Bandwagon,which is perhaps not a bad thing _politically._ 

I don't think the average person realizes that Mormons have a skewed view of Jesus,who stated that "No man comes to the Father but by me." That's simple enough that even a cracker can grasp it. 

Wonder if Beck could be classified as a false prophet?


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## Israel (Aug 30, 2010)

I have a simple hope that if Beck hits his knees as he says, and seeks the Father, he'll plainly hear..."Me and Lucifer ain't brothers..."


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## rjcruiser (Aug 30, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> Most Churches are offering a different Christ anyways, Starting with offering someone name Jesus as the Son of God.
> His Name is Yeshua not Jesus, then they offer a god that is 3 persons, that's not in the bible either, then they tell you  are saved by simply claiming grace grace, but can continue to sin and you still will go to heaven, something the bible doesn't teach.
> SO WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE IF HE IS A MORMON OR A TODAY"S CHRISTIAN ?
> I fail to see any difference between the two cults.
> Shalom





centerpin fan said:


>




I'll chew on some of that too

You should read some of his thoughts in the church only on Sunday thread.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 30, 2010)

Israel said:


> ...how can the ground be common if the jesus preached is another?



If this had been a church service and Beck had been preaching, I would agree with you.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 30, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> You should read some of his thoughts in the church only on Sunday thread.



Thanks for the tip.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 30, 2010)

crackerdave said:


> Good thread, Hayseed - many people are jumping on Beck's Bandwagon,which is perhaps not a bad thing _politically._



That's an important distinction to make.  Beck said that we need to "return to our Judeo Christian heritage".  He did not say, "Mormonism is cool.  Joseph Smith rocks.  All you people need to convert to Mormonism."

Al Sharpton also held a rally on Saturday.  Theologically, he is much closer to me than Glen Beck, but we are polar opposites, politically speaking.  You couldn't have dragged me to Sharpton's rally because this was not about theology and this was not a church service.  Going to Beck's rally was not an endorsement of Mormon doctrine.


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## crackerdave (Aug 30, 2010)

Sharpton is a racist,pure and simple. IMHO.


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## Lowjack (Aug 30, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> I'll chew on some of that too
> 
> You should read some of his thoughts in the church only on Sunday thread.



Let's remember that when Yeshua arrived he was persecuted and killed by the establishment because of his Correctness in the gospel and Law.
So perhaps the Religious establishment of today should listen when another Jew tells you, YOU are wrong, The Pharisees had 1000 years to corrupt the Law, The gentiles have had 2000 years to corrupt the Gospel and the letter of The Word. 

!


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## Lowjack (Aug 30, 2010)

crackerdave said:


> Sharpton is a racist,pure and simple. IMHO.



We finally agree on something


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## rjcruiser (Aug 30, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> So perhaps the Religious establishment of today should listen when another Jew tells you, YOU are wrong,




Hmm...last time I checked...it was the Jews who killed _Jesus_ Christ. 

LJ...does your bible stop at Acts 9?  Have you not read about Peter's vision?  Peter's preaching to Cornelius in Chapter 10?  Why is your response not like Peter and the Jerusalem believers in Acts 11:17-18?

 17"Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?" 

 18When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life." 


Seems to me that you are so hung up on the Law and being circumcised that you've lost the focus of _Jesus_ Christ's message.  Not one of the law or works, but one of God's grace and mercy.


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## earl (Aug 30, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> Let's remember that when Yeshua arrived he was persecuted and killed by the establishment because of his Correctness in the gospel and Law.
> So perhaps the Religious establishment of today should listen when another Jew tells you, YOU are wrong, The Pharisees had 1000 years to corrupt the Law, The gentiles have had 2000 years to corrupt the Gospel and the letter of The Word.
> 
> !





LJ and JC on equal footing. Who'd ah thunk it ????


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## rjcruiser (Aug 30, 2010)

earl said:


> LJ and JC on equal footing. Who'd ah thunk it ????



It isn't JC....it's YC


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## Israel (Aug 30, 2010)

If I have caused the Messiah offense by calling Him Jesus instead of Yeshua, Yehoshua, or his title Christ instead of the aforementioned Messiah...or Mashiach, I can't say as He has ever let me know.
If one is saying He is offended by such, I will leave that testimony with the Lord trusting him to either correct me or let that accusation fall to the ground.
I will hope to be mindful Lowjack, that if I address you in particular, to use the form with which you agree.


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## hayseed_theology (Aug 30, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> Does Mohler agree with him?



"This is an important and timely article by Russell Moore.  I commend it for your reading."  -Albert Mohler via Twitter


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## Ta-ton-ka chips (Aug 30, 2010)

Except for the Lowjack posts, this is the most pathetic thread I've ever read here on Woody's.


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## hayseed_theology (Aug 30, 2010)

Ta-ton-ka chips said:


> Except for the Lowjack posts, this is the most pathetic thread I've ever read here on Woody's.



Really?  Why's that?


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## Lowjack (Aug 30, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> Hmm...last time I checked...it was the Jews who killed _Jesus_ Christ.
> 
> LJ...does your bible stop at Acts 9?  Have you not read about Peter's vision?  Peter's preaching to Cornelius in Chapter 10?  Why is your response not like Peter and the Jerusalem believers in Acts 11:17-18?
> 
> ...



Seems you are incapable of Digesting Spiritual meat, are you saying the Christian Gentiles of the first century received the same Doctrines of Salvation that gentiles receive and follow today ?


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## centerpin fan (Aug 30, 2010)

hayseed_theology said:


> "This is an important and timely article by Russell Moore.  I commend it for your reading."  -Albert Mohler via Twitter



Interesting, but he doesn't come out and say he _agrees_ with Moore.  Assuming that he does, though, I have trouble squaring that statement with this:

_Albert Mohler of the Southern Baptist Seminary says the squeaky-clean Romney, who has been married to his wife for 38 years, scores awfully high on family values and morality. 

"There are circumstances in which I might well vote for Mitt Romney as president of the United States," Mohler says. "In the right political context, there could be a lot of evangelicals voting for a Mormon candidate."_

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11762390

I still say this is much ado about nothing.  The words "mountain" and "molehill" also come to mind.


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## Lowjack (Aug 30, 2010)

Israel said:


> If I have caused the Messiah offense by calling Him Jesus instead of Yeshua, Yehoshua, or his title Christ instead of the aforementioned Messiah...or Mashiach, I can't say as He has ever let me know.
> If one is saying He is offended by such, I will leave that testimony with the Lord trusting him to either correct me or let that accusation fall to the ground.
> I will hope to be mindful Lowjack, that if I address you in particular, to use the form with which you agree.



I think you will Agree when he calls you by your proper name ?


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## hayseed_theology (Aug 30, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> Interesting, but he doesn't come out and say he _agrees_ with Moore.  Assuming that he does, though, I have trouble squaring that statement with this:
> 
> _Albert Mohler of the Southern Baptist Seminary says the squeaky-clean Romney, who has been married to his wife for 38 years, scores awfully high on family values and morality.
> 
> ...



Voting for a Mormon is a political issue.  I don't have a problem voting for a Mormon if he is the best candidate.  That's what Mohler is saying in the particular interview you brought up.  I would assume Moore would agree.

What Moore is saying is that declaring a Mormon the new face of conservative Christianity is a big deal.  I would assume Mohler would agree.

According to Beck himself, this was not and was never intended to be a political rally.  In fact, Politico reported that, "the focus of the rally was more explicitly religious than political."  And from CNN, "Beck's speech oozed religious language and evoked the feel of a religious revival... Is he a new leader for Christian conservatives? Maybe."  Furthermore, Southern Baptist leader Richard Land came out and described Beck as "like Billy Graham" at the rally.  

The issue is not about voting for a Mormon or even being politically aligned with a Mormon.  The issue is about evangelical Christians attending a "revival" and cheering on calls to "return to God" when the man leading the rally doesn't believe orthodox Christianity.


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## pnome (Aug 30, 2010)

And I was beginning to like him too.  

Whither the Tea Party?  Is a once secular anti-tax, anti-big government movement to be taken over by the religious right?

I'm terribly conflicted after this rally.  I really am.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 30, 2010)

hayseed_theology said:


> What Moore is saying is that declaring a Mormon the new face of conservative Christianity is a big deal.



Yeah, but who's doing that?  CNN, Politico and the rest of the MSM might be saying it, but who cares?  What they understand about orthodox Christianity would fit in a thimble.




hayseed_theology said:


> The issue is not about voting for a Mormon or even being politically aligned with a Mormon.  The issue is about evangelical Christians attending a "revival" and cheering on calls to "return to God" when the man leading the rally doesn't believe orthodox Christianity.



Calling people to "return to God" is a good message regardless of who says it.  Again, if Beck told the crowd to "embrace the teachings of Brigham Young" or started quoting passages from the Book of Mormon, I'd agree with you.


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## hayseed_theology (Aug 30, 2010)

Centerpin Fan, I think we've hit an agree to disagree wall.


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## Jeff57 (Aug 30, 2010)

Glenn doesn't have a clue about Christianity and many of the so called Christian leaders don't either. If they did they would be evangelizing to Glenn instead of standing with him at a pseudo political/religious rally.   Glenn preaches that we should all return to our roots and put God first.  Problem is, he's not talking about the God of the bible whose Son was sacrificed for the sins of the world.  His God was once a man on another planet who has a goddess wife.  Together they had two children, Jesus and Lucifer with Jesus being the good son and Lucifer the outcast child.  

The Jesus I serve is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.  He created ALL things and without Him nothing was created.  God the Father was never a man, He is the infinite and eternal God Jehovah.  

Glenn has a large national following and it's a shame that he's leading many astray with his false teaching.  I will continue to pray that he will come to know the one true God and Jesus Christ as his savior.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 30, 2010)

hayseed_theology said:


> Centerpin Fan, I think we've hit an agree to disagree wall.



Agreed.  I'll try with Jeff57.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 30, 2010)

Jeff57 said:


> Glenn has a large national following and it's a shame that he's leading many astray with his false teaching.



He is?  I've never heard him "teach" anything about Mormonism.  He barely mentions it.


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## Jeff57 (Aug 30, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> He is?  I've never heard him "teach" anything about Mormonism.  He barely mentions it.



Agreed.  The only thing I've heard him say was that he was a Mormon.  He also says he's a Christian so those are contradictory statements and can lead a lost person search out Mormonism thinking it's Christian.  

The real problem I have with Glenn is he calls himself Christian but if you listen to him he teaches you should pray to _your_ God and be a good person.  I'd rather he leave God out of it and just talk about the political and economic issues of our time.  Whether he teaches Mormonism, or that any god is ok as long as your good and do the right thing, he's not talking about the God of the bible and leading folks astray.  

Those that teach a false Christianity are wolves in sheeps clothing.  They are dangerous and stand in the way of those spreading the gospel of Christ.  Although I mostly agree with him politically I could never stand with him because he is my spiritual enemy.  Therefore I will pray for him to come to a faith in the true gospel of Jesus Christ.


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## MudDucker (Aug 30, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> Most Churches are offering a different Christ anyways, Starting with offering someone name Jesus as the Son of God.
> His Name is Yeshua not Jesus, then they offer a god that is 3 persons, that's not in the bible either, then they tell you  are saved by simply claiming grace grace, but can continue to sin and you still will go to heaven, something the bible doesn't teach.
> SO WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE IF HE IS A MORMON OR A TODAY"S CHRISTIAN ?
> I fail to see any difference between the two cults.
> Shalom



3 persons is a mistranslation, but an easy one to understand.  There are three versions (manifestations) of God in the Bible.  First God in heaven, then God as a part Jesus (a translation of Yeshua) in that He sent His Holy Spirit to join with Mary to conceive a child and then references to His Holy Spirit being sent after Jesus ascended.


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## Slewfoot (Aug 30, 2010)

*SBC vs Glenn Beck*

I would agree with Centerpin Fan in that we should be very careful if Beck was preaching a sermon or bringing on converts.  The fact is that he is pointing americans back to our founding fathers...what is wrong with that?  If the mormons are heretics, I have yet to hear Beck preach about Joseph Smith or talk about starting a church in SL City.  I was a deacon long enough at a big SBC Church to know what politics happen at the SBC Board level as well as some of the courses that are taught at Dallas Theological Seminary.  That my friends can be heretical as well so I dont need Moore starting an inquest into Beck, from his ivory tower.

I took the long bus ride up with an assorted group of believers...of the real JC.  We didnt pledge allegiance to Glen, Sarah or Abe Lincoln, but we did join with other americans to demonstrate our love for this country and that we will not stand for this continued reign of injustice and erosion of our religious freedoms.  So many other millions are likewise tired of seeing our precious republic go down DAILY with this administration.  I would ask the fine Rev what he is preaching from the pulpit to get people off their blessed assurance and stand up for this country. 

I have been on a personal inquiry for about 6 months as to why most pastors are not preaching the true gospel and sounding the ALARM that our country is going down hill fast, due to obvious spiritual attack in the form of liberal america!  Most will not due to fear of losing tithes, members or 501 C3 tax exempt status.  I find this unacceptable.  I do heartily commend any church who is truly preaching the Word and sounding the alarm that the days are short and we should VOTE for those who are pro-Godly values and pro - life. We should not support pastors who will not preach the whole bible and not point to what is happening daily to this most blessed country.   Many have banked on a pre-trib rapture and I hope it is so, however let us not give up on our country just yet and sit back on our laurels...as times is going to git a bit rough in the near future.  God does not owe this country anything boys, in fact Sodom has nothing on us anymore.

Let us not be so hasty to judge this man!  What actual actions would you use in a probable cause affidavit?  Even Chuck Colson is stirring the hearts of the people to patriotism in this dark hour of our country's history.  Pray tell; what has Russell Moore done to encourage Godly people to stand for the one good country ever founded on God's truth?  Will he preach boldy from the pulpit and risk his pension and tax status?  Will he remember that Jesus said "Judge not, lest ye be judged by the same measure"? 

I say we stand up for our country before it is too late and not sit back in judgement of Beck like MSNBC and CNN.   

God (Yahweh) Bless America


----------



## hayseed_theology (Aug 30, 2010)

Diogenes said:


> Wow.
> 
> I’m not sure what to do with this one Hayseed.  Seems that we have a habit of viewing just about everything the same way, except for the conclusions.  Makes for a lively discussion, most times, so heck, I’ll play  . . .



Glad you decided to play.  You keep me on my toes.



Diogenes said:


> To start, I didn’t know that Beck was a Mormon, but now that you point that out it does help put some things into perspective.  I’m not much for television, and have only seen the man perform a few times, but my conclusion was much the same as yours – he seems to have his head screwed on straight concerning the crux of the issues, but his presentation is over-the-top zealous (causing one to cringe more than a bit), and he seems unable to form even a single sentence without the word ‘I’ in it (self-aggrandizement writ large).  One walks away unable to decide if he is actually that passionate about his topics or if he is simply a performer in a sideshow, hoping for a paying audience. Or both.



I actually don't have TV, so I haven't seen him that much.  When I have watched him, his caustic and condescending tone has caused me to cringe as well.



> The cynicism involved in coupling ‘God and Country’ into a single battle cry was the obvious motivation behind the First Amendment – “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion; or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;”  -- that seems pretty clearly written.  Law and religion were meant to be separated.  Idealistic, perhaps, but the Constitution was nothing if not optimistic, and has tended to let us fight over just what the ‘ideal’ might be ever since.



I agree.  I'm not sure where the ideal is either.  I believe we had a discussion about this on a past thread.  



> So, up to this point, in just about every sense we agree – in a nutshell, people, especially those who appoint themselves to ‘lead,’ are largely self-interested manipulators and have pretty much always been.
> 
> Where we diverge, of course, is in the conclusion that it is the ‘gospel of Jesus Christ’ that is the sole and sovereign answer to this problem.  You know my position on this one, and I’m familiar with yours as well, so we won’t resolve that one in a single thread.



Let me make clear that I believe the gospel of Jesus Christ is the answer, but I believe it is an indirect answer.  The problem with the government is not the current president, or any political party, or the tax structure, or any activist judge.  The problem with government is that is run by men with evil hearts.  As Moore states in the article, sin is the real issue.  The reason it is the answer is that it address man's sinful heart.   The gospel transforms men from the inside out.  I don't want an attempt at a theocracy, and I really don't like it when people call America a Christian nation.  I don't want the Religious Right to take over America.  I want men and women's lives to be transformed one-by-one by the gospel.  The mission of the church is not to take over a nation and establish a moral people who love low taxes and free market economics.  The mission of the church is to reach out to people from every tribe, tongue, and nation with a message that redemption comes through the shed blood of Christ.



> My thought is that it is rather wishful thinking to lament that not everyone sees things the way your own religion does, and thus conclude that the religion is still wholly correct, but maybe just not here, for these poor media-influenced and thus deluded folks.  China actively censors (or tries), Iran active censors (or tries), Russia, Cuba, Indonesia,  . . . I could go on, but you get the point – any and all attempts to preserve the ‘purity’ of an ideal has ended up failing miserably throughout all of history, and fails to this day.  Virtually everyone who has tried to stand up and declare, in effect, that, “We are right, and the rest of you poor fools are going to die in the flames of perdition for your sin of disagreement,” has been hastily sent off to find out for themselves if that is actually true.



From your perspective, I understand it appears unrealistic and naive to hope that all people would come to know Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.  I also realize that from your perspective much of the discussion appears to be "We are right, and the rest of you poor fools are going to die in the flames of perdition for your sin of disagreement."  But take on my perspective for a minute, if there is a God...if He is like the Bible says He is, then this is a truth of infinite weight.  The most compassionate thing I can do is proclaim this truth.  I am unloving if I do not lament the fact that so many do not see the truth. This truth is worth living for.  This truth is worth dying for.  



> People tend to have a natural resistance to being pushed around by egomaniacs.  Good thing, too.



Indeed.


----------



## hayseed_theology (Aug 30, 2010)

Slewfoot said:


> I would agree with Centerpin Fan in that we should be very careful if Beck was preaching a sermon or bringing on converts.  The fact is that he is pointing americans back to our founding fathers...what is wrong with that?  If the mormons are heretics, I have yet to hear Beck preach about Joseph Smith or talk about starting a church in SL City.  I was a deacon long enough at a big SBC Church to know what politics happen at the SBC Board level as well as some of the courses that are taught at Dallas Theological Seminary.  That my friends can be heretical as well so I dont need Moore starting an inquest into Beck, from his ivory tower.



Don't think Moore is planning any sort of inquisition.  



> I took the long bus ride up with an assorted group of believers...of the real JC.  We didnt pledge allegiance to Glen, Sarah or Abe Lincoln, but we did join with other americans to demonstrate our love for this country and that we will not stand for this continued reign of injustice and erosion of our religious freedoms.  So many other millions are likewise tired of seeing our precious republic go down DAILY with this administration.  I would ask the fine Rev what he is preaching from the pulpit to get people off their blessed assurance and stand up for this country.



So American Christians will drive miles upon miles to "restore America," but we won't walk across the street to share the gospel with folks.  What's wrong with this picture?  (That statement is not meant to be an attack on you or anyone that went to the rally.  If anything, I'm pointing the finger at myself.)    What is the Rev. preaching to get people to stand up for this country?  I hope nothing because that's not what God has called him to.  The role of the pastor is not to preserve the American way of life.  The role of the preacher is to preach the gospel clearly and passionately.  He is to preach Christ crucified, not "God and Country."  We are not to preach God AND... anything.



> I have been on a personal inquiry for about 6 months as to why most pastors are not preaching the true gospel and sounding the ALARM that our country is going down hill fast, due to obvious spiritual attack in the form of liberal america!  Most will not due to fear of losing tithes, members or 501 C3 tax exempt status.  I find this unacceptable.  I do heartily commend any church who is truly preaching the Word and sounding the alarm that the days are short and we should VOTE for those who are pro-Godly values and pro - life. We should not support pastors who will not preach the whole bible and not point to what is happening daily to this most blessed country.   Many have banked on a pre-trib rapture and I hope it is so, however let us not give up on our country just yet and sit back on our laurels...as times is going to git a bit rough in the near future.  God does not owe this country anything boys, in fact Sodom has nothing on us anymore.



Liberal America is not the enemy.  Sin is the enemy.  First and foremost, the sin in my own heart.  My own selfishness.  My own lust.  That is what I am to fight against.  That is what I am to war against.  Yes, I am to fight injustice and racism, but I am supposed to confront them in my own heart first.  Unbelievers are "captives," not the enemy.  We are to love them and seek to free them from their bondage.

Indeed, God never owed this country anything.  God owes no man anything.  



> Let us not be so hasty to judge this man!  What actual actions would you use in a probable cause affidavit?  Even Chuck Colson is stirring the hearts of the people to patriotism in this dark hour of our country's history.  Pray tell; what has Russell Moore done to encourage Godly people to stand for the one good country ever founded on God's truth?  Will he preach boldy from the pulpit and risk his pension and tax status?  Will he remember that Jesus said "Judge not, lest ye be judged by the same measure"?



"The one good country ever founded on God's truth" - So this is where we disagree.  We are a nation of sinners just like every other nation.  We were then, and we are now.  The Kingdom of God is not going to come through the American government.  The role of the church is not to make this country great.  The role of the church is to proclaim the glory of God and call sinners to repentance.  America is not the apple of God's eye.  America is not "The New Israel."  I think the New Covenant makes it pretty clear that the people of God are not associated with any particular geo-political region.  America is not a Christian nation.  Certainly, there are a lot of Christians in this nation, but there is only one Christian nation - the Kingdom of God.  This is not our home.  "For here we have no lasting city, but we seek the city that is to come."


----------



## Diogenes (Aug 30, 2010)

â€œFrom your perspective, I understand it appears unrealistic and naive to hope that all people would come to know Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. I also realize that from your perspective much of the discussion appears to be "We are right, and the rest of you poor fools are going to die in the flames of perdition for your sin of disagreement."

Well, though that hardly describes my entire perspective, at least on those points you are correct.  To take on the latter first, that is where the â€˜natural resistanceâ€™ comment arose.  Threatening folks to obey or be doomed has never really been the sort of thing that ends well.  As a persuasion technique, in modern times,  it is rather destined to fail.

And, to the former, my understanding of faiths and religions is pretty broad, and my understanding of your own is perhaps better informed by having been raised within the Christian faith myself.  Many, if not all, of the ideals espoused by the religion are perhaps idealistic in some ways, but go a long way towards creating a more civilized society.  Many, if not all, of the ideals espoused by the â€˜competingâ€™ religions are nearly identical from the standpoint of pure morality.  So I feel that it is less a matter of accepting Jesus alone than of accepting what appears to be a nearly universal morality, and rejecting the nonsensical, almost tribal masquerade that accompanies the ritualism attending religions.  

All of them seem to have the same central morality, yet all embroider that with a deliberate separatism that is designed to breed divisiveness and hatred between â€˜tribes.â€™  To me this makes no sense, except in the sense that religions were the earliest form of actually effective government, and all â€˜governmentsâ€™ are local (as the saying goes).  To the small minded pettiness of the local â€˜leaders,â€™ anything that tends to create a universality of like-mindedness across artificially drawn boundaries is threatening to them, and to their â€˜localâ€™ power.  No egomaniac will tolerate the watering-down of their personal wealth and power and control by such simple and silly things as having people actually agree.  (And if you read Shinto, Buddhism, the Koran, the Torah, and even study the more primitive belief systems that are still â€˜triballyâ€™ based to this day, such as the aboriginal, youâ€™ll find that, oddly enough, when it comes down to moral strictures, stripped of the robes and scepters that religious leaders affect as symbols of their personal reign over humanity â€“ most of the folks on this planet actually agree on the basic ground rules concerning how to live properly in a society of men.)

So, perhaps it is not completely naïve to think that men will ever agree, since in many ways we already do.  What they will never agree on, realistically, is a single reason or a sole source (such as a  God or a Government) as to why that is so.  Perhaps we are asking the wrong question, or demanding the wrong consideration.

You see, if we were to pluck ten thousand people at random from all over the world, and ask them, â€œWould you consider it to be right to walk next door and kill your neighbor simply because he is different than you?â€�  nearly all of them would say No.  But if we asked all of them WHY they think that such a thing is wrong, nearly all of them would give a different answer.  

My thought, modest though it is, considers that taking a top-down approach, of first forcing them to all agree on the â€˜Why,â€™ ought to take a serious back-seat to honoring the idea of the â€˜What,â€™ and encouraging that from the bottom-up.  You say the WHY is one thing, I say it is another â€“ the Chinese and the Tibetans and the Iranians and the Japanese and the Africans and the Methodists all say it is yet another thing.  Who really cares?  So long as it is the SAME thing?

Pump up the morality and the proper behavior towards ones fellow man, and tone down the â€˜Jesus is King,â€™ or â€˜Allah is Kingâ€™ nonsense, and the results, in the long run, promise to be much better.  People already know what is right â€“ they just donâ€™t want it shoved down their throats by zealots swinging swords rather than reason.


----------



## Jeff57 (Aug 30, 2010)

Slewfoot said:


> I would agree with Centerpin Fan in that we should be very careful if Beck was preaching a sermon or bringing on converts.  The fact is that he is pointing americans back to our founding fathers...what is wrong with that?  If the mormons are heretics, I have yet to hear Beck preach about Joseph Smith or talk about starting a church in SL City.  I was a deacon long enough at a big SBC Church to know what politics happen at the SBC Board level as well as some of the courses that are taught at Dallas Theological Seminary.  That my friends can be heretical as well so I dont need Moore starting an inquest into Beck, from his ivory tower.


 He may not be preaching Mormomisn but he is up front that he is a mormon and calls himself a Christian and that's misleading at best.  Don't know what politics at the SBC have to do with it.   



Slewfoot said:


> I took the long bus ride up with an assorted group of believers...of the real JC.  We didnt pledge allegiance to Glen, Sarah or Abe Lincoln, but we did join with other americans to demonstrate our love for this country and that we will not stand for this continued reign of injustice and erosion of our religious freedoms.  So many other millions are likewise tired of seeing our precious republic go down DAILY with this administration.


Patriotism.  I struggle with this one because I think this is a great country founded on biblical principles and it saddens me to see where we are and where we may be headed.  Yet I know that this admistration was put into power, not by the American people but, by God.  Why?  Certainly not so we could bring Glenn and today's religious leaders together to fight for the common goal.   I'm sure his Friday show with the black robe gang or whatever he calls them should be interesting.




Slewfoot said:


> I have been on a personal inquiry for about 6 months as to why most pastors are not preaching the true gospel and sounding the ALARM that our country is going down hill fast, due to obvious spiritual attack in the form of liberal america!  Most will not due to fear of losing tithes, members or 501 C3 tax exempt status.  I find this unacceptable.  I do heartily commend any church who is truly preaching the Word and sounding the alarm that the days are short and we should VOTE for those who are pro-Godly values and pro - life. We should not support pastors who will not preach the whole bible and not point to what is happening daily to this most blessed country.   Many have banked on a pre-trib rapture and I hope it is so, however let us not give up on our country just yet and sit back on our laurels...as times is going to git a bit rough in the near future.  God does not owe this country anything boys, in fact Sodom has nothing on us anymore.


 There are many preachers out there standing on the Word of God and preaching with conviction in churches both large and small, they're just not in the limelight.  It's sad that many preachers, but not all, with national recognition have sold out to TV ratings over biblical truth.



Slewfoot said:


> Let us not be so hasty to judge this man!  What actual actions would you use in a probable cause affidavit?


 His own words?



Slewfoot said:


> I say we stand up for our country before it is too late and not sit back in judgement of Beck like MSNBC and CNN.


 I'm with you on standing up for our country but I'm just not on the Glenn Beck band wagon.  _2Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land._ 




Slewfoot said:


> God (Yahweh) Bless America


 Amen.


----------



## hayseed_theology (Aug 31, 2010)

Diogenes said:


> Well, though that hardly describes my entire perspective, at least on those points you are correct.



No, I didn't figure it did.



Diogenes said:


> Who really cares?  So long as it is the SAME thing?



Well, then the question becomes a teleological one.  If the world has no final goal, then you are right.  The WHAT is far more important than the WHY.

However, if the universe is not without purpose, the WHY may prove to be just as important as the WHAT.



Anyway, that was an interesting post.  As you mentioned before, we both know where the other stands, and we won't hash it out in one thread.


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## Diogenes (Aug 31, 2010)

Always a pleasure exchanging views with you, Sir.  And as you suggest, it is best to leave the purpose of the universe to another time . . . 

I suspect that if we took that one up now there would be a gentle earthquake that would ripple through the community here . . . and we know how delicate some of their sensibilities are . . .


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## jason4445 (Aug 31, 2010)

Glenn Beck is a egomaniac and no matter what religion he is his only God and Savior's name is Glenn Beck and the only Gospel he preaches is hate and fear. Oh how we love hearing hate and fear being preached.


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## Slewfoot (Aug 31, 2010)

*Honor*

I agree with much of your posts and theology.  I am not a follower of beck, however I am not yet willing to dismiss what he is doing as sin or from satan.   I do believe that our true enemy is satan and our citizenship is in heaven. 

Okay, riddle me this...Do you believe in voting or standing up for this country founded on God?   Do you support our troops?   Exactly what do you categorize the taliban and jihadists that are planning to kill you and your family, are they misguided or are they the enemy?

Have any of you who are critical of the rally actually seen the rally?  

I will have to check out the black robe brigade as that does not really sound kosher to me either.


----------



## Israel (Aug 31, 2010)

Slewfoot said:


> I agree with much of your posts and theology.  I am not a follower of beck, however I am not yet willing to dismiss what he is doing as sin or from satan.   I do believe that our true enemy is satan and our citizenship is in heaven.
> 
> Okay, riddle me this...Do you believe in voting or standing up for this country founded on God?   Do you support our troops?   Exactly what do you categorize the taliban and jihadists that are planning to kill you and your family, are they misguided or are they the enemy?
> 
> ...



I have yet to find a scripture which instructs believers in any condition to take up arms against their sovereigns. Even and especially against those others who also name the name of Christ. (Or were all the Red Coats heathens?)
Before one wants to attribute the foundations of this worldly nation upon God, I would refer believers first to the nation of which the Lord Jesus is King and Master.
It is not of this world.
And flesh and blood cannot storm its gates, secure its borders, or ensure its posterity.

Can God use this nation to His own ends? Of course, God uses all things according to the good pleasure of his own will.


----------



## Jeff57 (Aug 31, 2010)

Slewfoot said:


> Okay, riddle me this...Do you believe in voting or standing up for this country founded on God?   Do you support our troops?   Exactly what do you categorize the taliban and jihadists that are planning to kill you and your family, are they misguided or are they the enemy?.


 Yes, Yes and the enemy.    As Americans we stand together in defense of our country no matter our race, creed or religious views but that's not the point.  In Glenn's own words he said the rally was not a political one but a religious one.  He spend an hour yesterday tooting his horn about what a great turnout he had and how he had done this and that and how in the history of this country no one has ever accomplished a feat such as he did with this rally.  Nauseating.


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## Jeff57 (Aug 31, 2010)

Israel said:


> I have yet to find a scripture which instructs believers in any condition to take up arms against their sovereigns. Even and especially against those others who also name the name of Christ. (Or were all the Red Coats heathens?)
> Before one wants to attribute the foundations of this worldly nation upon God, I would refer believers first to the nation of which the Lord Jesus is King and Master.
> It is not of this world.
> And flesh and blood cannot storm its gates, secure its borders, or ensure its posterity.
> ...


Amen


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 31, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> Seems you are incapable of Digesting Spiritual meat, are you saying the Christian Gentiles of the first century received the same Doctrines of Salvation that gentiles receive and follow today ?



How would it be any different?  Don't we have the Inherent Infallible Word of God?


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## hawglips (Aug 31, 2010)

> I’m quite willing to work with Mormons on various issues, as citizens working for the common good.



Moore is such a magnanimous disciple of Christ.


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## hayseed_theology (Aug 31, 2010)

Slewfoot said:


> I agree with much of your posts and theology.  I am not a follower of beck, however I am not yet willing to dismiss what he is doing as sin or from satan.   I do believe that our true enemy is satan and our citizenship is in heaven.
> 
> Okay, riddle me this...Do you believe in voting or standing up for this country founded on God?   Do you support our troops?   Exactly what do you categorize the taliban and jihadists that are planning to kill you and your family, are they misguided or are they the enemy?
> 
> ...



Yes, I believe Christians should vote.  We have responsibility to be good citizens.  Part of that responsibility includes voting.  However, voting is not the God-given method of change that Christians are to employ; the preaching of the gospel to all peoples is his chosen method.

Yes, I support our troops.  Many of my family members have served in the military.  I was very close to joining myself.  I have friends in Iraq and Afghanistan.  Several years ago I lost a friend to small arms fire outside Fallujah.  Whenever I meet a someone in the service or find out someone is a veteran, I make it a point to shake their hand and thank them.

Certainly, the Taliban is one of America's enemies, but as Israel has pointed out, those are earthly kingdoms.  Equating the enemies of a nation with the enemies of God is a dangerous thing.  Our battle is not against flesh and blood but against the evil in this world.  We pray that "God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will."

I don't have TV so I couldn't watch the rally.  I have done some reading on it from different sources.  I have listened to some of Glenn Beck's speeches.  A friend of mine has been on his show several times and spent time with him.  I am familiar enough with him to know that I don't want him to be the representative for conservative Christianity in America.


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## Slewfoot (Aug 31, 2010)

*Gb*



Israel said:


> I have yet to find a scripture which instructs believers in any condition to take up arms against their sovereigns. Even and especially against those others who also name the name of Christ. (Or were all the Red Coats heathens?)
> Before one wants to attribute the foundations of this worldly nation upon God, I would refer believers first to the nation of which the Lord Jesus is King and Master.
> It is not of this world.
> And flesh and blood cannot storm its gates, secure its borders, or ensure its posterity.
> ...



Not sure what you meant about the red coats and I certainly did not say anything about taking up arms.

I do not want GB as an appropriate rep for true christianity in America...my choice would probably be closer to Franklin Graham, however I think that is the part that Jesus and the Holy Spirit play and not flesh and blood.

I think the time is quickly coming where you will lose your legal right to preach openly about homosexuality and other issues from the pulpit or in public.  Will you then think it is time to be more politically active and alert the people?


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## Israel (Aug 31, 2010)

I think we forget the gospel of our salvation is sworn allegiance to a man who testifies against all the world's works. It can no more be "made legal" than it can be stamped out.
It is out of men's hands to do anything about it.
Far too many, calling themselves the servants of God's kingdom, have entered into legal contracts with the world making themselves subservient, not to the Lord, but to the princes of this age.
Many will awaken from their slumber, many will regret their earthly concords, and be stirred again as to the righteousness of God that is by faith in Jesus Christ.


----------



## Lowjack (Aug 31, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> How would it be any different?  Don't we have the Inherent Infallible Word of God?



God's word is Infallible, but men are not.
I believe more on what the men who walked with Messiah for 3 years and how they interpreted his words, than say, Darby, Jerry Duplantis or Clefford Dollar, Understand ?


----------



## rjcruiser (Sep 1, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> God's word is Infallible, but men are not.
> I believe more on what the men who walked with Messiah for 3 years and how they interpreted his words, than say, Darby, Jerry Duplantis or Clefford Dollar, Understand ?



Not really.  Our text that we have today is the best it has ever been.  Why do I say this?  Because of the archeological findings that have happened in the past 50 years.

And do you not think that our All knowing...all powerful God could not and did not preserve His Word throughout the ages?

Lastly...what gives you the insight that what we have today is different from what the apostles had in the first century AD?


----------



## Lowjack (Sep 1, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> Not really.  Our text that we have today is the best it has ever been.  Why do I say this?  Because of the archeological findings that have happened in the past 50 years.
> 
> And do you not think that our All knowing...all powerful God could not and did not preserve His Word throughout the ages?
> 
> Lastly...what gives you the insight that what we have today is different from what the apostles had in the first century AD?



Experience my friend experience and 12 years of University Both Hebrew and Gentile Teaching.
Plus the ability to read Hebrew ,Greek ,Spanish and other languages and compare and see with my own eyes what it says and not what someone else says it says.
Plus A University with an extensive Library to research.


----------



## hawglips (Sep 1, 2010)

A Black Man Goes To Glenn Beck's Rally
by Jerome Hudson (more by this author)
Posted 08/31/2010 ET




To hear the mainstream media tell the story, you would have thought that I, a black man, had walked into a hornet’s nest of racists when I decided to attend Glenn Beck's "Restoring Honor" rally. In reality, my experience was the complete opposite.

Instead of hooded Klansman frothing with hate and venom, I made dozens of new Facebook friends and gained a hundred Twitter followers.

One lady from New Jersey asked me if I was "afraid" because I was one of the "few blacks in attendance?"

I looked at her square in the eye and said, "Ma'am, the only thing I'm afraid of is that if I don't hurry, I'm not going to make it to the restroom in time."

We spoke of family, laughed, shared and she wept as she embraced me with hugs and kisses while thanking me for being there. (What a complete bigot, that lady!)

Beck's rally was meant to restore faith hope and charity in America. And that was the spirit of the day.

To be sure, I was one of the few blacks there that historic day. I'm sure to many I stuck out like a sore thumb. Or, perhaps more aptly, like a chocolate chip smack dab in the middle of a giant sugar cookie.

Perhaps that's why I was interviewed by at several news outlets.

When asked how long I had been waiting for the event to begin, I turned all three interviewers' faces to stone when I replied, "about 24 hours." I'm sure they thought I was kidding, but I wasn't. 

Like most Americans, I've had enough with this administration's policies. I was fed up and fired up.

I am even more so in the wake of the most moving gathering I've ever been privileged to be a part of.

At one point, some of the people attending the Rev. Al Sharpton's "counter rally," coined "Reclaiming King," stopped me. I guess they must have been judging me by the color of my skin not the content of my character, because they asked if I was going to come join them.

"No, I won't be there," I told them. "Why?" one of them asked with a grimace on his face. I looked at him and said, "I want to be where the Lord is and the Lord is in this place."

One of the older black women in the group asked me if I felt like I was "selling out" for being one of the "tokens" in the Beck rally crowd?

I laughed and said "Ma'am, Al Sharpton is a pretender. He is going to tell you to pretend that the color of your skin matters. He is going to ask you to ignore the now overwhelming proof that 50 years after the Civil Rights movement, blacks are now destroying each other faster than the KKK could have dreamed."

As I walked away, the group stood frozen, not knowing how to reply.

Later, as Sharpton preached a divisive message void of actual solutions on how to "close the education and economic gap" in the "black community," Dr. Alveda King, Martin Luther King's niece, invoked the spirit of her slain uncle proclaiming, "I too have a dream, that white privilege will become human privilege and that people of every ethnic blend will receive everyone as brothers and sisters in the love of God.”

Her comments on restoring the "foundation of the family" in America were met, not with boos, but with a thunderous applause.

(What bigots those white folks! Having the audacity to cheer Dr. King's niece like that. Racists the whole lot of them!)

I was probably the only 24-year old black college student in the crowd. It's hard to know, because we had over 300,000 people there. But that didn't matter to me. As we all stood hand-in-hand, American shoulder to American shoulder, our myriad faces streaked with tears as we sang "Amazing Grace." It was a moment I will be proud to tell my grandkids about one day.

What that moment taught me is this: Something profound is happening in America that runs far deeper than politics. The ground is shifting, and it's in freedom's direction.

As a nation at war, standing in division and debt, Beck challenged the crowd to return to God.

The message I took away is that we cannot continue to pick at the scab of America's past but must become the balm that heals it. That's the way forward—arm in arm, moving together, toward a better future.

Standing in a crowd that stretched from the Washington Monument to Lincoln Memorial what happened on 8/28 was the most inspirational thing I had ever experienced.

Standing there, unhyphenated and united, this black man has never felt more free in his life.


Jerome Hudson is a 24-year-old student of history, majoring in broadcast journalism, in Tallahassee, Fla. He blogs at http://jeromehudsonspeaks.weebly.com/


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## Slewfoot (Sep 1, 2010)

*Nice*



hawglips said:


> A Black Man Goes To Glenn Beck's Rally
> by Jerome Hudson (more by this author)
> Posted 08/31/2010 ET
> 
> ...



This is a great  story,  thanks for sharing it Hawglips.  I dont see how anyone could dislike this.


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## apoint (Sep 1, 2010)

The rally was to get America back to our founding fathers ideas.
There was many different religions spoke that day, not just Mormon etc. It was to put our country back on the path of righteousness, not to proclaim any one theology. Beck did a good thing so lets not put him on the cross.


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## hayseed_theology (Sep 1, 2010)

Slewfoot said:


> Not sure what you meant about the red coats and I certainly did not say anything about taking up arms.
> 
> I do not want GB as an appropriate rep for true christianity in America...my choice would probably be closer to Franklin Graham, however I think that is the part that Jesus and the Holy Spirit play and not flesh and blood.
> 
> I think the time is quickly coming where you will lose your legal right to preach openly about homosexuality and other issues from the pulpit or in public.  Will you then think it is time to be more politically active and alert the people?



I believe Israel's reference to the red coats/taking up arms was in regard to your comment that America "was founded upon God."  I think his point is that it is difficult to square a bloody revolution, like the American one, with Romans 13.  "Taxation without representation" doesn't appear to be a biblical reason for insubordination to authority.

I think you may be right about losing our freedom to speak freely concerning certain issues.  I am not apolitical.  As I mentioned before, we have a duty as responsible citizens to take an interest in politics.  I will push to maintain religious freedom, but I will not expend all my energy on that.  If we do more for the cause religious freedom than we do for the cause of evangelism, we are in sin.  As I said before, we will drive across the country for a "God and Country" rally, but we won't share the gospel with our neighbors.    

I refuse to let whatever happens in American politics to rob me of joy.  If our religious freedom is taken away, I will do nothing different.  I do not fear prison, abuse, or death for the sake of the gospel.  "Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul."  If you look at the landscape of the world, it is the countries with religious freedom where the church has been losing ground.  In many cases, it is where the church is experiencing persecution that she is flourishing.  "The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church." -Tertullian


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## Ronnie T (Sep 1, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> God's word is Infallible, but men are not.
> I believe more on what the men who walked with Messiah for 3 years and how they interpreted his words, than say, Darby, Jerry Duplantis or Clefford Dollar, Understand ?



Me too!


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## emtguy (Sep 1, 2010)

vanguard1 said:


> romans 10:9-10 tells a person how to be saved, it is not by works, it is not by not sinning everyone sins, the thef on the cross just asked jesus to remember him and he was saved, and that was before he rose from the dead to make salvation complete. God does not ask us to jump thru hoops for him just BELIEVE IN HIS SON.and what he did.




i could about write you a ook on the theif on the cross subject...did you kknow in those times you could be killed for stealing food just to feed your family?
The " theif" had a heart change, if he woulda been takin off that cross before he died THEN he woulda had to live out that change, not go back to stealing...theres alot more i could teach on that subject but ill save it for later.

And God does " ask us to jump thru hoops" thats why the word IF is in the bible 1522 times...every promise of god is conditional, you do this and i'll do that....see we have to work our salvation out BUT we dont have to work out our salvation...theres a vast difference in the two.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 1, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> Experience my friend experience and 12 years of University Both Hebrew and Gentile Teaching.
> Plus the ability to read Hebrew ,Greek ,Spanish and other languages and compare and see with my own eyes what it says and not what someone else says it says.
> Plus A University with an extensive Library to research.



What about the first two questions?

And how good is your education/linguistic studies if you are translating texts that are potentially wrong?

And lastly, what makes you think your educational background is greater than others on this board and those who put the english translations together?

Really..LJ...your pride has got the best of you.


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## Jeffriesw (Sep 2, 2010)

hayseed_theology said:


> I refuse to let whatever happens in American politics to rob me of joy.  If our religious freedom is taken away, I will do nothing different.  I do not fear prison, abuse, or death for the sake of the gospel.  "Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul."  If you look at the landscape of the world, it is the countries with religious freedom where the church has been losing ground.  In many cases, it is where the church is experiencing persecution that she is flourishing.  "The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church." -Tertullian





Amen Brother.


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## Inthegarge (Sep 2, 2010)

Back to the main issue at hand...I was raised a Mormon and was saved at 25..... Beck is just the latest attempt by Mormons to become part of the "Christian" community at large. When I was in the military (Vietnam) Mormon's declared themselves "Other" as religious preference...Today that are "Christian"...  They cannot help us return to our Christian roots because they have no knowledge of them..  Their doctrine is contrary to almost all Christian beliefs. I heard Glenn tell a TV audience of teenagers about the Creator God planning their life before they were sent to this world. Yes, Mormons believe that "Spirit Babies" are waiting for their chance to come to earth and become Mormons to eventually become God's on their own world. Sounds like a Christian belief to me...NOT...RW


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## hayseed_theology (Sep 2, 2010)

Inthegarge said:


> Back to the main issue at hand...I was raised a Mormon and was saved at 25..... Beck is just the latest attempt by Mormons to become part of the "Christian" community at large. When I was in the military (Vietnam) Mormon's declared themselves "Other" as religious preference...Today that are "Christian"...  They cannot help us return to our Christian roots because they have no knowledge of them..  Their doctrine is contrary to almost all Christian beliefs. I heard Glenn tell a TV audience of teenagers about the Creator God planning their life before they were sent to this world. Yes, Mormons believe that "Spirit Babies" are waiting for their chance to come to earth and become Mormons to eventually become God's on their own world. Sounds like a Christian belief to me...NOT...RW



Thank you for your service, and thank you for your input.  Sounds like you have more personal experience with this issue than most of us.


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## hayseed_theology (Sep 3, 2010)

Slewfoot said:


> Even Chuck Colson is stirring the hearts of the people to patriotism in this dark hour of our country's history.



I don't read much Chuck Colson, but since you mentioned him, here's his thoughts on the rally.


Which God Should We Turn To?

By Chuck Colson

http://www.breakpoint.org/bpcommentaries/entry/13/15236

As you know, on August 28, hundreds of thousands of people gathered on the National Mall for what organizer Glenn Beck called a “Restoring Honor” rally.

The stated goal of the rally was to “to pay tribute to America’s military personnel and others ‘who embody our nation’s founding principles of integrity, truth and honor.’” Beck told the crowd that “something beyond imagination is happening . . . America today begins to turn back to God.”

While I hope and pray that is the case, I do have some concerns.

Evangelicals figured prominently in the rally, both in the crowd and on the podium. That’s not surprising: We value truth, integrity and honor and, of course, pray for America to “turn back to God.”

But as theologian Russell Moore wrote, the sight of a “Mormon television star [standing] in front of the Lincoln Memorial and [calling] American Christians to revival” was, to put it mildly, disconcerting. Even worse, Moore wrote, was the fact that “evangelicals [are] cheering that they’ve heard the gospel, right there in the nation’s capital.”

Well, I’m not sure which gospel they heard.

Please understand, I’m not raining on anyone’s parade. And I’m not here to criticize what Beck is trying to do. I love him as a television commentator and political critic. And I believe he is a man who loves his country and wants the best for it.

But because Beck is not a Christian leader, I couldn’t help but wonder what the willingness of Christians to follow him says about the state of our own leadership.

Even setting aside his Mormonism, Beck isn’t exactly solid on issues we hold dear: the sanctity of life, the traditional family, and the erosion of religious freedom.

In Beck’s words, “we have bigger fish to fry” than these issues. He told Bill O’Reilly that America is a “symphony.” So those who raise these issues, like signers of the Manhattan Declaration, are insisting on playing their “clarinets” to detriment of the country.

It grieves me that Beck has taken this position, particularly because it’s out of step with his own church. The Mormon church has been a great ally in the fight to defend marriage.

Which leaves this question: What “God” are we supposed to “turn back” to? As Moore put it, the answer Beck gives, is, “at best, a generically theistic civil religion.”

And that’s what the Restoring Honor rally was: an appeal to civil religion. And that’s OK. Civil religion has its place. But it’s never to be confused with the real thing.

Glenn Beck is stepping into a leadership vacuum, and for that I applaud him. But folks, that means it’s time for Christians to become leaders ourselves. 2 Chronicles 7:14 tells God’s people to humble themselves, pray, seek God’s face, and turn from our wicked ways. This is the biblically prescribed way for transforming societies.

The Bible doesn’t specify how exactly God will “heal our land,” but part of the answer will be in our setting a godly example for others, and in our doing the gospel in every walk of life, and in defending truth. The power of transformed lives, of people who no longer live for themselves but for God and their neighbor, has been the way Christianity has always shaped societies throughout its history.

And that’s a power that mere civil religion cannot possess.


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## gtparts (Sep 3, 2010)

Hayseed T, I find it interesting that some uncertainty is expressed as to "how exactly God will 'heal our land',......” Some, I am sure, believe that would be accomplished by a ground swell of conservative, evangelical Christians in community and public office, voters and candidates, together, "turning the tide". I just don't see it happening that way. Civil religion sure won't do it!

In fact, such has never been the case. Restoration always follows purification and is always the very act of God, not mankind. The illustration of refining precious metal has consistently been used to confirm the process of removing the dross of unrepentant humanity from the crude ore of universal mankind, till only the faithful remain.


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## Slewfoot (Sep 4, 2010)

*Colson*

Hayseed, thanks for posting the Colson post.  I cannot disagree with his comments.   We definitely need to test everything by God's pure light.  I do not advocate following Beck as a piper and we should be vigilant as to how far he dips into doctrine.  However I am enthused to see americans moving to rally towards our founding principles.  I know that God has blessed our country in the past only because we used to honor Him.

When we attended the rally, we wore some dog tags that had 2 Chronicles 7:14 engraved on them...of course no Beck quotes on them.  A nice lady had them made for everyone.

Of course all govts including our present admin are only in place because God has allowed it (Just as Jesus told Pilate to his face).  One thing is for sure...if we continue on our present course (away from the will of our Lord), our country shall surely reap more judgement.  Then again, we know that only His kingdom will last forever and that this home is so temporal.  I will praise him whether our country falls or not, however I believe we should stand against the evil that has risen in our land with all our might.


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## Spotlite (Sep 4, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> Most Churches are offering a different Christ anyways, Starting with offering someone name Jesus as the Son of God.
> His Name is Yeshua not Jesus, then they offer a god that is 3 persons, that's not in the bible either, then they tell you  are saved by simply claiming grace grace, but can continue to sin and you still will go to heaven, something the bible doesn't teach.
> SO WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE IF HE IS A MORMON OR A TODAY"S CHRISTIAN ?
> I fail to see any difference between the two cults.
> Shalom


SO you do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God? Im not surprised, the jews rejected him before...

I agree that 3 gods are not found in the Bible, and the Bible is very clear on that. 

I also agree that just claiming grace does not save you. And I agree that you can not continue in sin.

I, let me say we still live and preach the Apostles Doctrine. I have not found anyplace in the Bible that has told us to preach any other Doctrine. Matter of fact, the Bible is very clear on that in Galations.

So there you have it, thats the difference in a Christian and a Mormon. But the problem is, every one claims to be a Christian. Christianity is not a religion, being Christian is nothing more than being Christ like.     



Lowjack said:


> Let's remember that when Yeshua arrived he was persecuted and killed by the establishment because of his Correctness in the gospel and Law.
> So perhaps the Religious establishment of today should listen when another Jew tells you, YOU are wrong, The Pharisees had 1000 years to corrupt the Law, The gentiles have had 2000 years to corrupt the Gospel and the letter of The Word.
> 
> !


LJ, Jesus was hung on the cross because the Jews rejected, to make a long story short.

Perhaps the Jew needs to listen to what Peter had to say and repent..............


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## Diogenes (Sep 5, 2010)

I remain a bit frightened by the continuous drawing of a parallel between the so-called ‘values’ of any religion and ‘American’ values, or what some think they ought to be.  Any call to ‘Reclaim America,’ under the flag of a religious faith, any religious faith, seems terribly uneducated, and calls to mind any number of atrocities perpetrated for just such ‘reasons’ over the course of history.  

Any such movement begins on a false premise – that their own religion had any legitimate ‘claim’ to the founding principles of this nation to begin with, and that the members of this religion, over 200 years later, are called upon to reinstate such a ‘claim.’  Any such contention is purely nonsensical, and strikes me as frightened, bigoted, defensive, and theocratical at its already shaky foundations.

This sort of thing is selfish power-hungry politics at its worst, and displays not a single crumb of ‘values’ other than a thirst to gain sole control over all people and gain the means to enforce it.  Religions have no ‘values’ any more than governments do.  Governments make laws to try, in the best case, to do as much good for the masses as is possible.  In the worst case, governments make laws to do as much good for the governors at the expense of the masses as will be tolerated.  I’ve seen few religions (and there are some, actually), that differ in any way from this observation in practice.  The only real difference is that religions draw different kinds of maps.

The similarities are too striking to ignore, with each and all, from the many religious movements to the many forms of government each and all describing the others as their enemy; each and all asking for and requiring total fealty at the risk of terrible punishment for disobedience; each and all requiring that significant portions of the hard-earned wealth of the members be given up to the discretion of the ‘leaders,’ who will certainly then deliver great rewards in return, someday; and each and all claiming with thundering oratory to solely occupy the moral high ground, and to be unassailably correct in their doctrines.  

Sorry.  As a civilization of reasonable, modest, hard-working folks, we’ve heard just about every variation on that theme that the manipulating idiots have ever been able to think up over the many, many centuries.  And we’ve seen the results.  Works out pretty well for the self-proclaimed ‘leaders,’ who seem to live pretty well without doing very much, and not so well for the rest of us.  One would think, despite the fact that the governments and religions own nearly all the schools, and teach only what they deem necessary to maintaining their positions, that we might have smartened up over all this time despite them.  Seems like we haven’t.

Then, as though to put an exclamation point on those thoughts,  Gt states: “The illustration of refining precious metal has consistently been used to confirm the process of removing the dross of unrepentant humanity from the crude ore of universal mankind, till only the faithful remain.”

Which ‘faithful’ are those?  And didn’t every dictatorial doctrine in history consider everyone other than themselves to be ‘the dross’?  And do not most modern doctrines, both religious and governmental, still consider US to be THEIR ‘dross’?

I know  . . . I know . . . YOU actually ARE the ‘precious metal,’ and THEY actually ARE the ‘dross,’ and you have a thousand reasons why.  And this time YOU are right.  Unquestionably.  Yada, yada, yada . . . Because this time YOU say so, and that ought to be enough, and before you came along to make this claim it was OTHER people who said that they were right, not you, and they did not possess the sole TRUTH that you hold – and because YOU have a Book that says so, and even though they did too, theirs were WRONG!  And YOU can prove it!  Because it says so in YOUR book!  

It is the LAW!  Because you have decreed it so by virtue of your book of LAW and not theirs.  

C’mon now.  

How many more generations of victimized children are going to have to endure this mindless perpetuation of ancient power-mad selfishness before we decide to kick the whole lot of you to the curb so that we can get on with living like reasonable adults in this world?  

Communism has already failed.  Monarchy has already failed.  Socialism is falling fast and is all but marginalized.  Representative Democracy needs some serious work.  Nobody believes in ghosts.  Animism has been left behind.  We’ve proposed, believed in, erected monuments and made sacrifices to, and then abandoned so many Gods over the centuries that it is almost too exhaustive a catalog to list.  We write and then divide ourselves over so many ‘Holy’ things that it is purely an amusing distraction.  There are no UFOs, manipulating alien races, metaphysical phenomenon, miracles, astrological inevitabilities, predestinations, invisible and unknowable forces, angel, devils, or an Eternal Flying Pink Platypus.

Really.

How much of this rhetorical tilting at windmills do you really expect simple, but educated, folks to endure before we get smart enough as a populace and lash back with the same violence that you ‘believers’ have unleashed on us over all of your histories, both religious and governmental?  Do you suppose that we have forgotten?  Or that we have forgiven you?

Are you really so arrogant that you continue to see yourselves as the ‘shepherds’?  With everyone other than yourselves as the sheep?  

True leadership is informed and enlightened.  Current ‘leadership,’ in every form, is self-interested and condescending.  Look that up in your history books, and see how it has worked out over the last fifteen thousand years or so . . .


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## Spotlite (Sep 5, 2010)

Diogenes said:


> How many more generations of victimized children are going to have to endure this mindless perpetuation of ancient power-mad selfishness before we decide to kick the whole lot of you to the curb so that we can get on with living like reasonable adults in this world?
> 
> 
> How much of this rhetorical tilting at windmills do you really expect simple, but educated, folks to endure before we get smart enough as a populace and lash back with the same violence that you ‘believers’ have unleashed on us



Wow. And yet we are the ones full of hatred. You got issues man. This speaks volumes about your mind set, really, it does.

Oh, let me do agree with you on something since you compared religion to govt., in one aspect of being similar that is, both face terrorist..............


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## Jeff57 (Sep 6, 2010)

apoint said:


> The rally was to get America back to our founding fathers ideas.
> There was many different religions spoke that day, not just Mormon etc. It was to put our country back on the path of righteousness, not to proclaim any one theology. Beck did a good thing so lets not put him on the cross.



 Only God can put this country back on the path to righteousness and it will be through one theology, Christ crucified.  Bringing all these different religions together to turn this country to god is just the conservative version of the new age movement.  There is only one God and one mediator between God and man, Christ Jesus.


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## Israel (Sep 6, 2010)

Jeff57 said:


> Only God can put this country back on the path to righteousness and it will be through one theology, Christ crucified.  Bringing all these different religions together to turn this country to god is just the conservative version of the new age movement.  There is only one God and one mediator between God and man, Christ Jesus.



Jeff, your avatar is heretical.
Dogs rule.


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## Jeff57 (Sep 6, 2010)

Israel said:


> Jeff, your avatar is heretical.
> Dogs rule.


  Yes it is but it's too funny.  I'm not big on cats but couldn't resist.  Dawgs do rule.


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## gtparts (Sep 6, 2010)

Dio has slipped his chain again.

Hey, fella, I will quote the post you made reference to in your last post. Here it is, unedited.



> Hayseed T, I find it interesting that some uncertainty is expressed as to "how exactly God will 'heal our land',......” Some, I am sure, believe that would be accomplished by a ground swell of conservative, evangelical Christians in community and public office, voters and candidates, together, "turning the tide". I just don't see it happening that way. Civil religion sure won't do it!
> 
> In fact, such has never been the case. Restoration always follows purification and is always the very act of God, not mankind. The illustration of refining precious metal has consistently been used to confirm the process of removing the dross of unrepentant humanity from the crude ore of universal mankind, till only the faithful remain.



Leave it to you to rail against God, a god in which you don't even believe. Makes perfect sense to..... wait a minute...... that's not rational, logical, or sane!! 

You ask who the faithful are. You do not have to be concerned about that. His sheep know His voice, so either you do or do not recognize Him as your Shepherd. 

If you are in the least concerned about the purification process, the Lord has outlined the method He will employ in His Word. And, trust me, He doesn't need any help from the sheep.


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## Slewfoot (Sep 6, 2010)

*Strategy?*



Jeff57 said:


> Only God can put this country back on the path to righteousness and it will be through one theology, Christ crucified.  Bringing all these different religions together to turn this country to god is just the conservative version of the new age movement.  There is only one God and one mediator between God and man, Christ Jesus.



Well since Glen Beck and Sarah Palin have it wrong:  what do you feel is appropriate to prompt you and your like minded brethren to action / vote / righteousness?  Does your church actively come against the pro choice movement and other atrocities?

...am I wrong that several of you would have been against the Declaration of Independence that our founding fathers designed...because the declaration and constitution does not have the exact statement of faith from your church?  Of course you would not have taken up arms against King George.


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## Jeff57 (Sep 6, 2010)

Slewfoot said:


> Well since Glen Beck and Sarah Palin have it wrong:  what do you feel is appropriate to prompt you and your like minded brethren to action / vote / righteousness?  Does your church actively come against the pro choice movement and other atrocities?
> 
> ...am I wrong that several of you would have been against the Declaration of Independence that our founding fathers designed...because the declaration and constitution does not have the exact statement of faith from your church?  Of course you would not have taken up arms against King George.



I think you miss the point.  You and I and Glenn would probably be like minded on many of the political issues such as pro-life, limited government, the founding principles of our country, etc.  However, as I stated previously in this thread, it was not purely a political rally. Glenn himself said so and claimed it was more religious than political.  It's time Christians stand strong for God's principles, not man's.  We are not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers and Glenn and some of the religious leaders with him are unbelievers.  

_2 Corithians 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 
15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 
16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “ I will dwell in them And walk among them.  I will be their God, And they shall be My people.”
17 Therefore “ Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you.” 
18 “ I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters, Says the LORD Almighty.”_


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## hayseed_theology (Sep 6, 2010)

Slewfoot said:


> Well since Glen Beck and Sarah Palin have it wrong:  what do you feel is appropriate to prompt you and your like minded brethren to action / vote / righteousness?



I wouldn't equate voting with righteousness.  I can't think of a Scripture passage that equates the two.  I would be careful about doing that.

However, as I have said before, we are to be responsible citizens.  Responsible citizens should vote.

What should prompt men to act righteously?  The Spirit of God working through His Word.  



Slewfoot said:


> Does your church actively come against the pro choice movement and other atrocities?



Yes.



Slewfoot said:


> ...am I wrong that several of you would have been against the Declaration of Independence that our founding fathers designed...because the declaration and constitution does not have the exact statement of faith from your church?



If the Declaration of Independence included an exact statement of faith from my church, I wouldn't have signed it.  I believe in the separation of church and state.  I do not want the gov't to force my beliefs upon anyone, and I do not want the gov't telling me what I can and can't do(within reason) in my church.  



Slewfoot said:


> Of course you would not have taken up arms against King George.



Do you think "Taxation without representation" is a biblical reason for rebellion after having read Romans 13?


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