# Christians and Alcohol ?



## Briar (Feb 12, 2005)

Is it ok for a christian to consume one or two  alcoholic drinks occasionally? Like when your out to eat or glass of wine with the meal . The bible is very clear about drunkeness . That is a sin and that is not what I'm asking.


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## BROWNING7WSM (Feb 12, 2005)

Yes....Theres nothing wrong with a drink here and there..


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## Woody's Janitor (Feb 12, 2005)

That's an individual decision according to one's faith.


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## Todd E (Feb 12, 2005)

I voted no, as that is what God has shown me through His word. This is one of those subjects that causes severe static amongst people. I will not take it to that level here. If you are searching for reasoning, PM me.


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## duckbill (Feb 12, 2005)

Does the Bible come out and say don't drink?  I don't believe it does. BUT, I don't believe a Christian should drink. 
My reasons:

Why make the devil's job any easier than it is?

Testimony - We should be set apart.  Non-Christians should be able to something different in us.

As Christians we should strive to be more like Jesus.  If Jesus were to come to Earth today, I just can't see him having a beer.


Why do I feel this way?    I spent half of my life drinking.  I know for a fact drinking contributed to my drifting away from church as a teen.


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## HT2 (Feb 12, 2005)

*Teddy.....*



			
				Woody's Janitor said:
			
		

> That's an individual decision according to one's faith.



I agree!!!!!!!!


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## Ramey Jackson (Feb 12, 2005)

Woody's Janitor said:
			
		

> That's an individual decision according to one's faith.




The only thing I'll add to this statement is...pay attention to your convictions!  


I see this thread getting ugly...for some CRAZY reason.


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## HT2 (Feb 12, 2005)

*Ramey........*

Believe me!!!!!!!!!!

They won't let it............If it strays in any "negative" direction, it will be "GONE"!!!!!!!


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## Ramey Jackson (Feb 12, 2005)

HT2 said:
			
		

> Believe me!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> They won't let it............If it strays in any "negative" direction, it will be "GONE"!!!!!!!



I hear ya bud! I'm the same way.


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## Ga-Spur (Feb 12, 2005)

Well sure Jesus would have a beer or a glass of wine ; but not in a club and he would not get knee walking drunk like some of us are thinking of I suppose. Isn't it written to take  some wine for the stomach.


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## HuntinTom (Feb 12, 2005)

HT2 said:
			
		

> Believe me!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> They won't let it............If it strays in any "negative" direction, it will be "GONE"!!!!!!!


Tim - Not a "They" here - I'll continue to moderate the thread as I do all the threads in the Spiritual Forum, and do my best to insure everyone gets his/her say while we all remain civil, kind-hearted, and respectful of one another's take on the subject...   I'll look forward to seeing the posts and the thread develop...  Now, back to the thread @ hand


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## blindhog (Feb 12, 2005)

I think scripture leads us to be wise in the use of alcohol if one is inclined to it's use.

Don't offend a brother, don't drink to excess (drunkeness), which basicaly covers all scenarios, I think.

I personally like beer, but not the alcohol.  Occasionally I will get some NA beer, like O'douls. Just one or two with a meal that I like the flavour with, like steak...mmmm.

BUT....I do not get drunk, noe want to, and...I have no tendency to go to alcohol for the "high".

But one who does....should use wisdom from the scriptures.


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## matthewsman (Feb 12, 2005)

*wine*

was used and mentioned many times in the bible....Jesus even offered it to his disciples at the last supper.......Turned water into wine....do not put new wine in old skins etc........The same word for wine in these verses is the same word used in the verses warning against it in excess,so it isn't probable he was warning us about becoming foolish in drunken revelings with "welches".........He drank wine,he gave his disciples wine,he spoke of wine himself many times in parables and other instances and the only warnings he gave were against excessive use,drunkeness........What is drunk?........We all know the difference in "a drink or two with friends"and "Gettin' tore up"although many of us may do both,I think only the second is wrong and have been guilty of that myself........IMHO it is no worse than the sin of jealousy,lying,or murder as all seperate us from the love of God.....We all have different convictions,God will let you know what he expects of you,and it may be different than what he expects of someone else....donnie


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## Todd E (Feb 12, 2005)

What was the water quality like during biblical times?

Why was wine consumed during biblical times?

How does the "alcohol" consumed today differ(ie alcohol content) from the "wine" spoken of during biblical times? or....is it the same? 

How is Budweiser, Michelob, Miller(which are beer) justified with the mentioning of "wine" in God's Word?

Is it okay to drink just beer or is hard liquor okay too?


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## dbodkin (Feb 12, 2005)

I have communion every Sunday at Mass. Which includes the host & wine. Jesus's "Body & Blood"  However, I dont drink to excess.. A case of beer may last me a year and the same for a bottle of wine. As a matter of fact we have unopened hard stuff from my sons wedding in 1989.     
I know various Christian denominations do not allow any alcohol, tobacco use and I respect that...


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## GeauxLSU (Feb 12, 2005)

Water into wine?  Why?  It is clear to me you could get drunk from biblical wine.  
Guys, the fact remains "do not a drunkard be" is what it all boils down to.  Everyone interprets that a different way though everyone says the bible is not open to interpretation.  Some say "Don't get drunk" others say "If it takes you 5 drinks to get drunk and you have one drink, or you 1/5th drunk?".  
If alcohol or anything else leads you away from Him or causes you to sin, then don't do it!  The same thing could be said for ANYTHING including HUNTING!  
For me (and only speaking for me) in my younger days, alcohol used to facilitate sinning.  Today, I rarely ever drink, and when I do, I do NOT stray.  If I did, I'd probably never have another drop (and if I never had another drop I wouldn't even notice.  If you come to my house and I offer you a beer and you accept it, do so with the knowledge is probably a very VERY old one.   ).  I'm further on my journey with Him now and am stronger than I was before (though of course still weak in too many areas).  I can do things today I could not when I was both younger in age and younger in my walk.  Some things now, I simply know not to do.  
The alcohol in beer is obviously the same alcohol as in wine, hard liquor and any other consumable spirit.  

Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## Dudley Do-Wrong (Feb 12, 2005)

I can think of several reasons and could point out numerous passages of Scripture that leads me to say no.  Just off the top of my head, I remember when Jesus told the Apostles how they should pray and the prayer He provided is what is know and "The Lord's Prayer".  It says "Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven".  We, as Christians, should strive to live on this earth as we would in heaven. 

I also have a saying and when I used to teach youth at church I would tell them, "when in doubt, don't".  I believe if a Christian has to ask if it's ok to drink, then that tells me that something inside is telling that person that there may be something wrong in doing it.  

One of my favorite Scriptures and one I strive to live by is 1 Cor 10:31.  Off the top of my head, it says "In everything you do, whether you eat or dring or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God".  This Scripture is saying that even in the most simplistic aspect of our lives, we should be living to glorify God in everything we do.  In no way do I see any glorification to God in even drinking one drink.


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## Dudley Do-Wrong (Feb 12, 2005)

BTW, from a historical perspective.  The water in those days, in that part of the world, wasn't fit to drink.  The wine was used as a way to flavor and it helped in purifying the water at least to an extent the water could be consumed.

Straight off the vine, wine is nothing but grape juice.


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## GeauxLSU (Feb 12, 2005)

*David, good stuff.*



			
				David Mills said:
			
		

> In no way do I see any glorification to God in even drinking one drink.


David,
I understand completely what you are saying but let me ask, do you see glorification of God in eating a greasy cheeseburger?  How about smoking a cigarette?  How about watching TV?  How about in whatever your occupation is?  
How do you explain John 2:9 and John 4:46?  
BTW - Your comment about "when in doubt, don't" would go a LONG way towards curing most of the world's ills.  My personal way of dealing with sin is simply to avoid putting  myself in a position to do so.  Life is much easier that way.  Some like to 'test' themselves, I understand.  I've been through the 'tests'.  I'm happy to be where I am now.  
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## Briar (Feb 13, 2005)

Thanks for all the responses . I too feel like it's a personal choice and that you should not offend anybody with it if you choose to partake . I never had any wild days as a young man and got drunk . So as an adult I don't and never will have an alcohol problem . I have christian friends that it offends, some because they are recovered alcoholics/drug addicts  and I don't mention it to them or drink in front of them .


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## GeauxLSU (Feb 13, 2005)

Five-O said:
			
		

> Thanks for all the responses . I too feel like it's a personal choice and that you should not offend anybody with it if you choose to partake . I never had any wild days as a young man and got drunk . So as an adult I don't and never will have an alcohol problem . I have christian friends that it offends, some because they are recovered alcoholics/drug addicts  and I don't mention it to them or drink in front of them .


I once invited a couple (husband and wife) over for a cookout.  After maybe 15 minutes they noticed two people (it was a group of about 8 or 10) were having their first beer (each person wound up having two total if I remember correctly).  When this invited couple noticed there was an open beer they got up and left.  No explanation.  I spoke with the wife of  this couple after the fact and she said "If someone from my church saw us around alcohol we would be kicked out."  (He was a part time preacher.)  She will also go to a restaurant that serves alcohol but if the tables are full she will not sit in the 'bar area' to eat.  The non-bar and bar tables could be 2 feet from each other but if it's officially a 'bar table' (regardless if anyone has a drink) she will not sit there and would leave the restaurant.  
Her comment about her church I personally found very sad.  But again I understand, we all have our own views.  
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## Zack attack (Feb 13, 2005)

*What is culturally appropriate?*

As Christians we should not do anything that will hender us from sharing the gospel. The question of alchol is one that i struggle with. I enjoy a beer when I am eating pizza. But I think that hurts my testimony and would deffinetly hurt my witness. If I were in Germany I would not hesitate to have a beer because it is culturally appropriate. I do not think it is culturally appropriate in America yet. It is probablly headed that direction though. How would you feel if you and your child walked into a resturant and saw the childs youth minister having a beer with super?


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## Jim Thompson (Feb 13, 2005)

I have no issue with someone who drinks.  I do have issue with someone who is a drunk.

Jim


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## matthewsman (Feb 13, 2005)

*With the eskimos*

It is culturally appropriate to sleep with the hosts wife,so Cultural laws should not always be followed....Having a drink never hurt anyones witness.....Getting drunk and doing something foolish has hurt many



			
				Zack attack said:
			
		

> If I were in Germany I would not hesitate to have a beer because it is culturally appropriate. I do not think it is culturally appropriate in America yet.


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## bruceg (Feb 13, 2005)

I've got enough to do, dealing with this beam in my eye. I don't need to go looking for motes in other folks eyes. That said - I prefer not to drink alcohol. What someone else does is their choice until it personally effects me and/or my children.


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## dutchman (Feb 13, 2005)

bruceg said:
			
		

> I've got enough to do, dealing with this beam in my eye. I don't need to go looking for motes in other folks eyes.



Well said Bruce.


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## Jkidd (Feb 13, 2005)

I personally dont drink and havnt since before I was legal to with the exception of 1/2 a beer on the golf course 2 yrs ago due to nothing else was around (wheres that girl in the golf cart that comes around and sells drinks??) and it was about 100 degrees and I was thirsty.. I dont have a problem with folks drinking I just choose not to..

Jason


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## Hambone (Feb 13, 2005)

I don't have a problem people who drink.  Those who drink with the INTENT on getting drunk are, I think, most certainly off the Christian path.

Beyond that however, what is the differentiation between alcohol and caffeine?  Or tobacco?  Or as Phil said, a greasy cheeseburger?  All these, and more, are "poisons" to the temple, are they not?  Is one sin greater than the other?


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## Arrowslinger (Feb 14, 2005)

Jim Thompson said:
			
		

> I have no issue with someone who drinks.  I do have issue with someone who is a drunk.
> 
> Jim



I feel the same way!


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## mpowell (Feb 14, 2005)

i don't have a problem with christian's drinking.  i drink.  everything in moderation . . .

i think most have a problem with someone who's life is controlled by ANY substance.  in this instance, alcohol.


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## Keith48 (Feb 14, 2005)

Proverbs 23:29-35 "29Who has anguish? Who has sorrow? Who is always fighting? Who is always complaining? Who has unnecessary bruises? Who has bloodshot eyes? 30It is the one who spends long hours in the taverns, trying out new drinks. 31Don't let the sparkle and smooth taste of wine deceive you. 32For in the end it bites like a poisonous serpent; it stings like a viper. 33You will see hallucinations, and you will say crazy things. 34You will stagger like a sailor tossed at sea, clinging to a swaying mast. 35And you will say, "They hit me, but I didn't feel it. I didn't even know it when they beat me up. When will I wake up so I can have another drink?"

The wine referred to in the New Testament was unfermented and contained no alcohol; it was as someone said earlier - simply grape juice. Some scholars say that the sparkle referred to in this passage is referring to fermented wine, or wine with alcohol in it.

Some folks say it is OK to drink. I choose not to. I know what alcohol did to me when I was younger and I choose not to partake of it.


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## Hunting Teacher (Feb 14, 2005)

bruceg said:
			
		

> I've got enough to do, dealing with this beam in my eye. I don't need to go looking for motes in other folks eyes. That said - I prefer not to drink alcohol. What someone else does is their choice until it personally effects me and/or my children.


Amen to that!!  
Teach


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## GeauxLSU (Feb 14, 2005)

*I don't understand alternating "literalness"*

I would GENUINTELY like some help with this one.  Guys, and I really do mean this respectfully and I'm not trying to 'convince' anyone to feel differently about their convictions.  This is a much more GENERAL question about 'interpretation'.  
People on here go to great lengths to INSIST the words in the bible (even though there are obviously multiple translations) are NOT open to ANY interpretation whatsoever.   It MUST be taken literally.  So they will point to a verse which by today's standards seems out of context or irrelevant and say "It is what it is.  It does not 'mean' something else.  It clearly means what it says."  Several things in the bible clearly tell me you should not get 'drunk', such as the passage Keith just posted.  Yet when something as clear as 'wine' comes up, suddenly it is open to interpretation or to suddenly be put into context, a context that is presumed.  It is very clear to me that when Jesus turned water into wine (more than once), the wine was an alcoholic beverage to be used in CELEBRATION of a special event, which was in that case a wedding (still obviously common practice today).  But because your particular convictions tell you not to drink (which many people have convictions beyond what is 'spelled out' for us and that is GREAT!), you then alter the text of the word 'wine' to be 'water flavored with or purified with' wine.  (You are not going to purify anything with non-alcoholic wine so even if it is watered down, it's still alcholic.)  
Again, not on this issue necessarily but just in general, I guess any insight, from those of you who take a professed  word for word literal meaning, on when you go looking deeper to find a meaning OTHER than the literal words would be potentially helpful.  
I've re-read this post three times now to make sure it doesn't sound offensive and I'm not sure how to ask the direct question(s) above without potentially stepping on someone's toes but that again is NOT my intention.  I sincerely would like to know and hopefully have adequately asked what has been a long standing question in my mind but only in this thread appears clear enough to try and articulate.  
Thanks in advance for any insight.  
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## Dudley Do-Wrong (Feb 14, 2005)

Phil,

John 2:9
When the master of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom.

John 4:46
So Jesus came again to Cana of Galilee where He had made the water wine. And there was a certain nobleman whose son was sick at Capernaum.

This is my take on John 2:9 and John 4:46.  First, let me revert back to my previous statement concerning the use of wine in the historical perspective.  In both cases, Scripture talks about water being turned into wine.  Why would that need to be done, why did Jesus turn water into wine?  Was it to display His diety?  Every miracle Jesus performed was done based on the circumstance, the need at the moment, it was never done just to “show off”, yet the miracles do prove His diety.  From the perspective of needing drink, why would Jesus turn the water into wine, why not just drink the water?  Jesus didn’t turn the water into wine just so they could have a party, they needed drinkable drink.  I suppose Jesus could have made the water drinkable as water, but who would have known the difference?

Let’s look at things as they are today.  Many folks, including Christians, say that it’s ok to have a “sociable” drink.  Why would someone have a “sociable” drink, so they will fit in with the crowd?  That’s contrary to what the Bible teaches, we are to be set apart from the rest of the world.  We should strive to emulate Christ, and Christ was the one who set the example we are to follow.  The social drink does not set the example, it’s just doing what everyone else is doing which does not exemplify being “set apart” from the world.  Furthermore, back in those days, their choices of drinkable liquids was rather limited, it was either “this” or nothing.  Today, we have almost unlimited choices, some healthy and some not so healthy.  Yet, many choose the latter, some of which are alcohol based.

Also, some folks, including some Christians, say they like to have an evening drink to unwind and relax from a full day of work.  I believe Scripture teaches that we should depend on Christ, not alcohol, to relieve our daily stress and anxieties.


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## mpowell (Feb 14, 2005)

Jim Thompson said:
			
		

> I have no issue with someone who drinks.  I do have issue with someone who is a drunk.
> 
> Jim




well said, jim.  right on the money IMO!  as an adult, you should know your limits.  if you're capable of partaking of a drink, go for it.  if not, stay away from the stuff.

it's sad that someone would be judged by others because they're seen in a restaurant drinking a beer.  i don't get it.  especially with all the folks who attend church regularly but have hidden lives and their own inner-demons to deal with.   i include myself in that statement, don't worry.

my ex-girlfriend and i attended church and we tried to go out to eat with a few other people our age who were members but we felt uncomfortable ordering a beer or mixed drink because they looked down upon drinking.  yes, i didn't have to order a beer, but why not???  i wasn't getting rip-roaring drunk!  why should i have to act as someone i'm not for the acceptance of others when i feel that a drink with dinner isn't something God would disapprove of?


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## Dudley Do-Wrong (Feb 14, 2005)

Phil,

First, absolutely no offense taken.

You pose a couple of questions; one is a general overall question concerning literal vs. liberal interpretations, the other concerns specifically the consumption of alcohol.

This is my take on it.  There exists in today’s world, a huge problem concerning what Scripture says across denominational and personal lines.  Along the liberal front, the belief is that the Bible is to be taken metaphorically, that the Bible doesn’t actually mean what it says.  Well, whom ever adheres to that belief can justify whatever lifestyle they choose with no moral conviction.  Kinda goes with the saying “it doesn’t matter what you believe as long as you believe”.  I am of course providing the most extreme circumstance, but if one does look at the Bible liberally, at what point does it get “extreme” and who’s to say different? I prefer to take the safest position when it comes to things of God and that is a literal, conservative approach.

I have mentioned many things from a historical basis and tried to draw a comparison to today.  I think it’s very important that the historical facts of that day be considered in why certain things were said as they were said in the Bible.  I consider it very very dangerous when we try to apply today’s social standards to what God tells us.  I have heard it said many times that what is said in the Bible does not necessarily apply to today because man is different and society has changed.  Well, to this I say “who is authorized to change the rules except the Creator of those rules”.  There have no revelations in nearly 2000 years, He is the Alpha and the Omega, He always has been and always will be.  He is the same since the beginning and will remain the same.

All in all, We cannot create God in our image and that’s the danger in a loose, liberal, worldly interpretation of His Word.


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## GeauxLSU (Feb 14, 2005)

David,
Thanks for the response and I agree but let me perhaps be a little more precise (since I re-read my post I can see where I'm maybe not specific enough).  
I completely agree you can justify anything you want by writing off passages as 'no longer relevant', but what I'm saying is EXACTLY the same thing is done on the 'conservative side'.  I hate to keep harping on THIS issue, but since it is the subject of the thread I guess it makes the most sense to discuss it, but again, this is a much broader question.  
In my mind a true literal interpretation of the bible says, do NOT get drunk.  It does not anywhere say to not drink wine or alcohol.  It most certainly does say do not abuse it.  So, to support a conservative view of this particular subject one goes to historial context and makes, we must admit, a supposition about the intent and use of the wine in the passages mentioned.  Yet that same philosophy (using historical context) is applied very selectively when that historical context would call for a 'liberal' interpreatation of a passage.  (David, absolutely not saying YOU do that just a general observation on my part after conversations with some folks and reading threads here over time).  To me, we either take it as it is, or not.  We either apply our own standards to our life which may be stricture than Scripture, or adhere to the letter and no more or less.  Either one I presume is sufficient in His eyes and is as we are called.  
Here's what I'm getting at, I've never met anyone who has taken a LITERAL literal (intentionally double typed) interpretation of the Word.  They apply it to their beliefs (based on Scripture granted) and then research or add context to passages up until the point it conincides with their belief system then they stop.  It hurts my head.    
The passage said they drank "wine".  It did not say, they drank wine flavored/distilled water.  To suppose so is in fact INTERPRETING, historically accurate context or not, and correct interpretation or not.  
I'm not very good at expressing myself on such things but perhaps this is a little more clear?  
It's probably obvious I do not take a literal interpretation of the bible by SOME people's standards but the funny thing is I do by others.  And I guess that is my point, to me a 'literal intperpreation' is only literal, to the person who owns the interpreation.  Does that make sense?  
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## Dudley Do-Wrong (Feb 14, 2005)

I guess that unless we can sit face to face, the difficulty of trying to convey one’s perspective in this type of communication will continue.  Let me provide something that may offer a little more perspective.  In reading the Old Testament and some of the New Testament some things are not completely understood.  These things I am referring to are the types of things that Biblical scholars and historians research which provides a better perspective of things of those days compared to things of today.  In most cases, life back then was much simpler, I think everyone would agree to that.  In understanding the people of those days, we cannot look upon many things the way we look upon it in today’s standards.  Please don’t get this mixed up with my prior statements about God always has been and always will be the same.  I think one of the problems we have in trying to understanding the “drinking” of Biblical times is that we look at it in today’s perspective.  Those folks had no choice but to drink what was available.  The wine mixed with water was to help purify the water, but if you drank a lot of the purified water, you could probably get drunk.  That’s why some passages say “do not be a partaker of much wine” (something like that anyway).  Now, I’m sure that many drank wine itself.  Have you noticed that you never (at least I have never) seen any mention of just “grape juice”?  Wine is fermented grape juice which I’m sure you know.  I don’t specifically remember ever being told this, but I tend to believe that wine, as written in the Bible, refers to grape juice, fermented or unfermented.
Phil, I am in no way a Biblical scholar.  I have listened to many scholars which in explaining historical aspects provided me with a better understanding of the “why’s” that I sometimes am confused or uncertain about.
I think this is what is so extraordinary about God’s word.  Though it is complete, logical, and through the Holy Spirit, understandable.  He has written it in such a way that we have to put forth some effort in order to mature.  Not saying that you or anyone else is not a mature Christian, it’s just that the deeper we dig, the more we will understand.  And to me it’s kinda like golf; no matter how good you are, you can always be better.  I’ve got a long ways to go in God’s word (and in golf).


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## Ga-Spur (Feb 14, 2005)

The bible didn't say it was grape juice or Coca Cola. It was Wine.     I don't understand why  y'all can't believe it wasn't wine. Wine is good for you if you can find one that you like. Wine is similar to beer that was produced in that time.  The bible speaks of abusing wine  and other aspects of living.


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## Todd E (Feb 14, 2005)

I'll go ahead and admit that this one is going a lil' off topic, but I think it is relevant to this discussion. 

I'm a firm believer in the fact that, how ever many of you, can make your free choice to do whatever you desire to do. Just as I can do. Keep in mind, and I think you are all aware of it,.....we will all stand and be judged for our actions. There will be no excuses................ A poll on Woody's saying it is okay to do or not do will get you and me nowhere. What concerns me most, is whether members of this board really dive into studying the Bible or not. Now, I'm not talking about devotions. I'm talking about you, God's Word, a concordance, The Holy Spirit, and then you praying it back into your life. I'm not talking about what Joe Smoe or your friend says..........I'm talking about what The Holy Spirit told you. If all this talk is self concockted(sp?) personal ideas or emotions.......it bares no weight and it is just cheap talk. 

Okay, so you decide to go down to the local restaurant and decide to have a Bud with your burger. Over in the corner is a member of your Sunday School class who happens to see you drinking. He decides, well shoot, if he can I can. Devestating events come from his one drink. What does God's Word say about not being stumbling blocks to those around you? Well, I'll just drink at home. Nobody will see me there. What about your kids?

When I was seventeen, I had a python. Later on(still having snake) I met my now wife. As time went on, this once docile snake, became one you couldn't trust when playing with him or feeding him. There was no time to react at any sort of aggression. He was that quick. I decided with a kid in the house that it was time for the snake to go. I question you with this.........what comparison does The Word make between your drink and a snake? I don't like playing with handgrenades. I'm sorry, but a can of Bud, is to me, playing with the same thing. 


***Addiction is skillful at blurring casual or occasional drinking***


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## F250 (Feb 14, 2005)

To be quite honest with you I don't like the taste of Alcohol.  I do drink about 6 beers a year but there is generally nothing else aroud at the time to drink,  like ditch water!!


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## mpowell (Feb 14, 2005)

Todd E said:
			
		

> Over in the corner is a member of your Sunday School class who happens to see you drinking. He decides, well shoot, if he can I can. Devestating events come from his one drink. What does God's Word say about not being stumbling blocks to those around you?



so--if we use the above analogy--let's say you introduced a sunday school friend to shooting handguns and he felt life was no longer worth living and decided to use his handgun to commit suicide.  should Christians not own/use guns because they could potentially be misused dangerously???

i'm not trying to be argumentative and i admire your passion and conviction to your feelings.


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## broadhead (Feb 14, 2005)

> When this invited couple noticed there was an open beer they got up and left. No explanation.


Phil, this couple was rude to you and the other guests. They could have shown a little more class and politely excused themselves. I hope I'm not insulting your friends. That is just how I would have handled myself if I found myself in an uncomfortable situation.



> Okay, so you decide to go down to the local restaurant and decide to have a Bud with your burger. Over in the corner is a member of your Sunday School class who happens to see you drinking. He decides, well shoot, if he can I can. Devestating events come from his one drink.


Sorry, I didn't buy him the beer, or encourage him to drink it. His responsibility...not mine.

Where is there documentation that the wine in The Bible was non-alcoholic. I've heard this once before on Woody's, but I've never read it in a reliable source. I'm not disputing you Keith. I'm just asking.


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## duckbill (Feb 14, 2005)

mpowell said:
			
		

> so--if we use the above analogy--let's say you introduced a sunday school friend to shooting handguns and he felt life was no longer worth living and decided to use his handgun to commit suicide.  should Christians not own/use guns because they could potentially be misused dangerously???



I would have to say the main difference is that handling a firearm does not kill brain cells. (unless of course it was used in that manner  )

Whether anybody on here wants to admit it or not, alcohol kills brain cells.  It truly is like playing with a hand grenade.  

Most of us on this thread are Christians, I'm sure.  So I don't have to tell you how difficult it is to walk the straight and narrow.  There are temptation and traps set all over the place.  How much more difficult is it when you are slightly less inhibited(or more relaxed).  God warns us to be vigilant and always on gaurd for the enemy.  Alcohol can cause you to drop that gaurd in the most subtle way.

I love all of you guys on here and certainly don't judge anybody for drinking.  I just don't want anybody to accidentally end up down the road I ended up on.


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## WILLMAN (Feb 14, 2005)

I Beleive So


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## mpowell (Feb 14, 2005)

more than a few of you have alluded to previous alcohol troubles as proof that it's not possible to enjoy a few drinks and still have the ability to function in a logical, adult manner.

remember, there are a some of us who CAN do that.  it's possible to have a few beers, enjoy the time with friends, and still be responsible about your actions.  i don't think the Lord would have a problem with that.

for those that realize ONE beer is too many, i applaud your ability to know your limits.  personally, if you told me i could never drink another beer the rest of my life i'd be fine with that.  it's certainly not a necessity.  but, i love the taste.


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## GeauxLSU (Feb 14, 2005)

Some good points.  Todd E, I understand COMPLETELY what you are saying.   My question is, if I take your question about having a beer and someone acting irresponsibly based on what I do responsibly, then where do I draw the line?  Should I not smoke (I don't but you get the point).  Should I not drink caffeine?  Should I not eat fatty foods?  As has been suggested should I not own firearms?  Should I not drive a car?  ANYTHING in the world can cause harm when done in excess or carelessly hopefully on that we can agree.  You know it is possible to kill yourself from drinking to much plain water (can happen during strenuous exercise if not enough salts are consumed).  I'm stretching this obviously but for effect.  If alcohol causes you to sin, do NOT do it.  If you think it 'might' cause you to sin do NOT do it.  If you think it might cause your neighbor to sin do not do it in front of him or at all if that's your reasoning, but I do not see where drinking alcohol is biblically forbidden and as a matter of fact quite the contrary.  Some of us obviously read differently.   If you come to my house and you let me know you are offended by anyone drinking alcohol for religious reasons, I won't (OK 99 times out of 100 I probably wouldn't have anyway).    If I got to your house and you ask me to have a beer with you I will.  If you ask me to have 15 with you, I'll likely decline, and we'll have a hopefully productive 'talk' the next morning.  

Duckbill,
I don't believe I've ever read where low levels of alcohol in the blood stream such as would be found with one or two drinks kills brain cells (I could be completely wrong and if so please correct me) but it is definitely common knowledge that high levels do.  Just ANOTHER reason to "not a drunkard be".  

Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## Dudley Do-Wrong (Feb 14, 2005)

> Where is there documentation that the wine in The Bible was non-alcoholic.



I don't believe it was stated emphatically that it was non-alcoholic.  First, it was said that wine, because of it's alcohol content, was used to help make water drinkable.  

I suppose if one were to ask me the exact documentation that told me the world is round, the best answer I could give is that I was taught it in the 1st grade (that was 41 years ago)

As far as evidence goes concerning the use of wine as a water "purifier", my information came from the likes of Dr David Jerimiah, I've heard my own pastor speak about this as well.  I did not go behind him, or other scholars I trust and respect, to verify what they were saying is factual.  If I were to do this concerning everything I was taught, I wouldn't be doing anything else 24/7.  I would imagine there is literally millions of documents one could examine and research for historical facts such as this.

Phil,
I don't think the coupls who left your party was necessarily rude, they may have felt very awkward and quietly left as so not to offend anyone.  They may have thought that, knowing you, that there wouldn't be alcohol at your house.  Who knows, but give them the benefit of the doubt.  I personally tend to avoid gatherings where alcohol is being served.  It is sometimes unavoidable, but I have to remember that not everyone shares my convictions.

There have been many statements in this thread that mention the affect on ones ability as a witness.  Paul, in most of his epistles, spoke at length about that.  We (as Christians) should not  knowingly put ourselves in a situation where it could even be perceived that we are partaking in things that would hurt the body of Christ.  If we are trying to win souls with a bud in our hand, just how successful would we be?

I could go on and on about this and similar situations.  A lot of it goes back to something I said (maybe in a different thread).   One can sit there and say "well, the Bible doesn't say anything about corn liquor do I can sip my Jack Daniels all day long".  Believe me, there are many who do use that type of excuse to justify their actions.  I'm not going to point a finger at anyone, I've got many issues within myself as it is that I have got to get straightened out.  And maybe my issues are worse as I know I'm completely in the wrong yet I continue doing what I know is wrong.

God Bless You All


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## GeauxLSU (Feb 14, 2005)

*I should clarify about my couple*

I re-read my post and I definitely was not clear.  When I said they left without saying anything at all, I meant about WHY they were leaving.  They did not 'disappear'.   I'm sorry but I can clearly see how that was interpreted that way.  They just suddenly got up and left and when questioned gave a vague and obviously untrue answer, something along the lines of "we need to get going to see some friends" when they have been invited over specifically to eat.  To be honest, they could have simply said, "I'm sorry, we didn't realize there was going to be alcohol here and we really don't feel comfortable given our callings."  Regardless, they did what they did, I just thought it worth mentioning as an example of two individual's convictions.  
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## Buzz (Feb 14, 2005)

Phil - it's also interesting that they told a LIE to get away from people that were having beer.  We all know what the bible says about telling lies.


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## Timberman (Feb 14, 2005)

I've heard it said that a liberal Baptist is one who'll speak to you when you run into them at the liquor store.  

I'm very , very short of being any kind of religious scholar, but one of my favorites is the Book of Ruth. I know it's Old Testament so mostly folks throw it out. 

It talks of Ruth coming back to her in laws homeland after her husband and daddy in law died and in order to help provide, she would glean grain fields after they had been harvested to get any leftover grain. Boaz, a prominent man in the area, noticed her and told his help to look out for her and let her get all she wanted. After hearing this, Ruth's mom, Naomi, told her to doll up and when Boaz laid down on the threshing floor, to go and lay at his feet. "When Boaz had finished eating and drinking and was in good spirits, he went over to lie down at the far end of the grain pile. Ruth approached quietly, uncovered his feet and lay down."   

Anyway he liked her and and after bringing up the issue of some land Ruth's husband and daddy in law had owned openly to a man who had more rights to it than him as well as the whole town, they swapped a sandal and he bought the land and married Ruth.

I like that story. And I think they was drinking back in those times and it was ok.


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## broadhead (Feb 14, 2005)

Gotcha. Even though they lied, that is better than simply disappearing. As ineffective as it was, it appears their lie was told to prevent embarrassment.


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## GeauxLSU (Feb 14, 2005)

broadhead said:
			
		

> Gotcha. Even though they lied, that is better than simply disappearing. As ineffective as it was, it appears their lie was told to prevent embarrassment.


Believe me, they know me well enough to know that it would NOT have embarassed me.  I'm not sure we get to justify bearing false witness but perhaps we do.  I'd rather not say anything further about that particular instance since it is all supposition on my part but there does appear to be a lot of contradiction in their positions.  Again, I will not judge....
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## broadhead (Feb 14, 2005)

> Again, I will not judge....


Neither will I Phil.  I apologize for calling them rude earlier. I didn't mean to judge. Consider it dropped.


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## Todd E (Feb 14, 2005)

mpowell said:
			
		

> i'm not trying to be argumentative and i admire your passion and conviction to your feelings.



I know you're not, MP.

I just don't want to see people's lives destroyed by alcohol. It may only be my feelings, but it is a time bomb waiting to go off and when it does........we all know..... it is devastating.

The gun thing,........kinda grasping.....but I may have overlooked the word gun in The Bible or missed it in the Greek/Hebrew meaning. I have studied the suicide/going to Heaven deal though.



Phil, actually the food deal, etc. you mentioned.........is addressed. Romans 14(read the whole chapter)......I'll look to be sure. This is also where not being a "stumbling" block comes from. Applying that scripture to your posted words.............it would be best for one to do in private(just between them and God) those actions spoken of. That way it's between the individual and Him and has NO possibility of causing a brother to fall. But, I think ya'll have referred to something like that as being "chicken" or having something to hide?


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## GeauxLSU (Feb 14, 2005)

broadhead said:
			
		

> Neither will I Phil.  I apologise for calling them rude earlier. I didn't mean to judge. Consider it dropped.


No need to aplogize at all!  
pm sent...
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## GeauxLSU (Feb 14, 2005)

Todd E said:
			
		

> Phil, actually the food deal, etc. you mentioned.........is addressed. Romans 14(read the whole chapter)......I'll look to be sure. This is also where not being a "stumbling" block comes from. Applying that scripture to your posted words.............it would be best for one to do in private(just between them and God) those actions spoken of. That way it's between the individual and Him and has NO possibility of causing a brother to fall.


Todd, 
Very interesting passage indeed (it's apparently been too long since I've read that.).  It's amazing I bet that everyone here can read that chapter and leave even more convinced in there position.  Perhaps rightfully so!  
Regading the gun thing, obviously a lot of temptations/evils etc... didn't exist in biblical times.  Internet/video/printed porn, countelss drugs du jour, phone sex, etc.. etc... you can say well they are all addressed by other related passages.  So are weapons and killings.  
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## Todd E (Feb 14, 2005)

Phil, the key to this issue and all the many others is to get alone with God and let Him speak. In my earlier post I made note of pondering whether or not members get alone with Him and study His Word(in depth) or do with out. If we don't, we are suspect to any misleadings, false teachings, etc. We must be grounded in The Word.

Even this poll, as minute as it may seem to some...............

could possibly be a stumbling block to someone. That may get a rise, but think about.....I mean really think about it in relation to Romans Ch 14.


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## Dudley Do-Wrong (Feb 15, 2005)

Someone previously asked or made an implication that the Bible refers to wine in the alcoholic sense only.  The following passage strongly implies that the word "wine", in the Biblical sense, refers to the juice taken from the grape in whatevr stage of fermentation.

Isaiah 65:8, "As the new wine is found in the cluster one says, 'Do not destroy it, for a blessing is in it"


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## PWalls (Feb 15, 2005)

I have to side with Todd E on this one.

Christians are called to set an example, to not conform to this world and to be above reproach.

We set examples everyday, by our actions/inactions, speech, everything.

Who is to say that a person struggling with alcoholism and is on the brink of quitting doesn't just continue in it after seeing a good Christian's one "social" drink. I know that is grasping, but itwas all I could think of at the time.

Romans 14 is a very good chapter.

Oh, I do not drink anymore. A friend of mine gave me a very nice bottle of Merlot that when finally opened is used in cooking. It will probably go bad before I use it all.


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## GeauxLSU (Feb 15, 2005)

Todd E said:
			
		

> Even this poll, as minute as it may seem to some...............
> could possibly be a stumbling block to someone. That may get a rise, but think about.....I mean really think about it in relation to Romans Ch 14.


I agree completely.  ANY 'question' about what is right in His eyes can be viewed as a stumbling block.  We do not live in a vacuum.  We are called to reach out to others.  We can not do that in isolation.  Asking questions and discussing things such as these I think does far more good than bad, but yes, no question there is always the opportunity for someone to be lead astray.   If everyone read the Word alone and it was never discussed perhaps we'd all come to the 'right' answers individually by the intervention of the Holy Spirit but I don't believe that is His desire.  I could be wrong.  
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## Eshad (Feb 15, 2005)

Great discussion here guys.  Much of God’s Word has been shared here, and once again, He promised it would not come back void, so I trust the Holy Spirit is at work.  

Now, as for me and this issue.  Like many of you I was torn on this issue.  Not on whether I could drink, but whether  God’s Word stated “NO DRINKING ALCOHOL”.  This was not an issue with me, because my parents, nor did my circle of friends drink.  However, when I got married and moved away, guess what?  It seemed like almost everyone I came in contact with drank!!!  So, in order to state my case for not drinking, I really searched the Bible to find out what God said.  Basically I found what has been written in the earlier posts.  Did he say “NO DRINKING ALCOHOL”? No.  However, there were more than enough warnings about the danger of drunkenness.  So, that was reason enough for me.  I didn’t want to be a stumbling block to anyone.  Also, I don’t want my kids to see me drink, and think it’s OK for them to do the same.  I believe it can lead to bad decisions, with a lifetime of consequences.  There are enough opportunites for making bad decisions without adding more.  Again, good discussion guys.  

Eshad


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 16, 2005)

Haven't been around for a while, and didn't read all the posts, but I'll give my take on this....

To my knowledge, nowhere in scripture are we told not to drink....it is only in excess that the Word says that there is a problem.

Also, I believe it was Paul who said something to the effect of...."don't do something that you know is okay if there are people around who may be offended by it..."    

Bandy


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## Dudley Do-Wrong (Feb 16, 2005)

Info I found:

It is commonly supposed that in Bible times, all preserved grape juice inevitably fermented, thus many assume that all mention of "wine" in the Bible refers to the alcoholic beverage commonly called "wine" today. However, ancient civilizations had several ways of protecting fruits and fruit juices from fermentation, and thus of having non-alcoholic wine throughout the year. 

Boiling the grape (or other fruit) juice and reducing it to a syrup that could then be diluted 
Boiling the juice with minimum evaporation and sealing it airtight with beeswax (anaerobically) in jars. 
Drying the fruit in the sun, and then reconstituting it to use the fluid for wine. 
Filtration to exclude gluten. 
Addition of sulphur to the fruit juice, a process that prevents fermentation. 
All these methods of preservation were known to the ancients, who also practiced boiling fermented juice to eliminate the alcohol. Referring to the first method of preparation, Aristotle (b. 384 B.C.) wrote "The wine of Arcadia was so thick that it was necessary to scrape it from the skin bottles in which it was contained, and to dissolve the scrapings in water." Nott's Lectures on Biblical Temperance, p. 80. 

The poet Horace (65 B.C.) wrote, "There is no wine sweeter to drink than that of Lesbos; it was like nectar, … and would not produce intoxication."

"The Mishna states that the Jews were in the habit of drinking boiled wine" (Kitto's Cyclopedia of Biblical Literature, vol. 2, p. 447). Naturally this wine would be entirely alcohol-free as a result of the boiling, if not also from the manner of preservation.

"Albert Barnes, D. D., [Presbyterian] in his commentary on Jn. 2:10, wrote: "The wine of Judea was the pure juice of the grape, without any mixture of alcohol. It was the common drink of the people and did not produce intoxication."

Adam Clarke [Methodist] in his famous Bible Commentary wrote in reference to Gen. 40:11: "From this we find that wine anciently was the mere expressed juice of the grape without fermentation. The saky, or cupbearer, took the bunch [of grapes], pressed the juice into the cup, and instantly delivered it into the hands of his master. This was anciently the yayin of the Hebrews, the oinos of the Greeks, and the mustum of the ancient Latins." Clarke's historic note accords with the Scripture that declares "… the new wine is found in the cluster and one says Hurt not the wine when it is in the cluster, for there is a blessing in it." Isa. 65:8.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 16, 2005)

Ephesians 5:18 - And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; 

Paul didn't say, "Don't drink wine that has alcohol in it..."  He just said not to get drunk with wine.     

All wine, even new wine, would have some alcohol in it, (if only miniscule) unless it was boiled.   IMHO, those that boiled their wine were lucky, not having a clue about pasteurization...or microbes...   

Bandy


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## Dudley Do-Wrong (Feb 16, 2005)

I'm just providing a historical perspective on wine Bandy.  I believe from all of the discussion, that when the Bible uses the word wine that it is not necessarily speaking of an alcoholic drink, it is speaking generically of the juice from the fruit.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 16, 2005)

I was just saying that when Paul wrote that in Ephesians that it is implied that he was referring to alcoholic wine.    I'm not a drinker, so I'm not trying to justify it....  I just don't think we should read anything into scripture.

No offense intended  David.  

     <no pun intended either!  LOL

Bandy


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 16, 2005)

Gas from fermentation?   LOL

Bandy


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## Joe Moran (Feb 20, 2005)

I believe that it is perfectly fine in moderation.
If you abuse it, the Lord will convict you for it. Some medical research shows that a glass of wine a day, is actually good for you. I personally don't drink much at all, but I have no problems at all with drinking an occasional beer.


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## Cward (Feb 21, 2005)

No good EVER comes from drinking alcohol!! All people act like complete idiots after drinking! No use for it at all! I've seen IT destroy too many good people!   Drinking IS WRONG!!!


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## Joe Moran (Feb 21, 2005)

Cward said:
			
		

> All people act like complete idiots after drinking! No use for it at all! I've seen IT destroy too many good people!   Drinking IS WRONG!!!



Obviously, that is your opinion & you are more than entitled to it. 

I think it is true to say that *SOME* people act like complete idiots after drinking too much.

I just have a hard time accepting that me having 1 beer on the weekend, while I'm cooking on the grill in my own back yard, is wrong. I've got about 3 beers in the fridge right now that I haven't touched since deer season ended.


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## Duramax (Feb 21, 2005)

Be not drunk, but be filled with the holy spirit.

Duramax


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## Briar (May 15, 2005)

Any more voters out there ? bumpity bump bump !!!!!


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## labman (May 15, 2005)

Drinking might be ok to some of you guys, but what is that person that is not a christian at work thinking when you try and witness to them about god and then sees your truck at the local bar or sees you buying a 6 pack at the store. I say it ruins your testimony and witnessing power. when you get saved you should try to set an example to others. It might not say in the bible that it is a sin but it sure is a bad example for non christians to see you doing it. This is just the way I see it.


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## jason308 (May 15, 2005)

I believe it would definitely ruin a testimony in public as many have posted but don't see anything wrong with a drink every now and then (my personal conviction). As with anything else, use moderation in excess.


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## phinizyhunt (May 16, 2005)

What is so wrong with buying a 6 pack? Just sittin around with the boys, throwin down a cold one.


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## Beehaw (May 21, 2005)

Let me ask a few questions:
How bad is your witness hurt if you are overweight?  The Bible is clear about gluttony. 
How about coffee, is it ok?  I can't count the number of people who "just can't get started" without their coffee in the morning and some after they eat in a restaurant at night; or either have bad headaches when they don't drink it for a while.  I would think if your body is having withdrawals (headache) then whatever you are denying it is affecting you.  
I think we each need to realize God made us different and what is a stumbling block for us, may not be for others.  While I agree that we should not create a stumbling block for others, where do we draw the line?  What if you have a friend that is of another denomination that has no problems with drinking, or what if he doesn't think women should wear make up or cut their hair?  Do you not associate with him or his wife because of their beleifs?


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