# The Children of the promise?



## Artfuldodger (Sep 10, 2018)

Reading through Romans 9 again. I'm not sure what the "promise" is? It kinda reads like there are children from man's sexual encounters and then there are promised children from divine intervention.

Abraham tried to have the promised child his way. God intervened. Then later within the same bloodline with Esau and Jacob. God chose one over the other. The promised child was chosen before they were born.

Those were individual choises of God. Regardless of what the human parents wanted, it was God who chose these children of the promise. I can see it as God choosing the way for the seed as in Jesus but scripture says "children of the promise."

Romans 9:8
In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.

Doesn't this go way deeper than God just choosing a lineage for Jesus? It's almost like the children of the promise will "all" be chosen by God. It's not just the single seed or child of Abraham but it's all the children of the promise who are Abraham's offspring.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 10, 2018)

Backing up a verse to;

Romans 9:7
Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."
or
Neither are all of Abraham's children his descendants. On the contrary, your offspring will be traced through Isaac.

This verse is puzzling as it makes it sound like Abraham's offspring or children will be traced through Isaac. Yet we know that not all of these children are children of the promise.  That God chooses the children of the promise.

Also and maybe a better reading;

Romans 9:7
Neither because they are of his seed are they all children of Abraham, because it was said, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”

In Isaac and on through Jacob is the seed(Jesus) called.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 10, 2018)

Reading on in the chapter Paul must figure that God's way of choosing children of the promise may not be fair. Paul reminds them of what God told Moses; "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.

These "children of the promise" so far have been from God's doings and not mans.

Also to show that it works both ways as not only the mercy and compassion of God, is the hardening. That it's not dependent on human desire or effort.

Romans 9:17-18
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”   18Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.

Then on to the Potter story that we all know.

Then on to God calling people who were not his people, his people. Maybe this it the children of the promise. The vessels of mercy from the Potter, Jews and Gentiles.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 10, 2018)

Paul started chapter 9 with Israel and now he is back to Israel at the end of the chapter.

Romans 9:29
And as Isaiah said before, Except the Lord of the hosts had left us a seed, we had been as Sodom and been made like unto Gomorrha.

Perhaps the "seed"(Jesus) saved them or God's election of a remnant for the seed to come about.

The Jews did not obtain righteousness like the Gentiles did because they stumbled over the stumbling stone. They did this because they could not perform the works of the Law. 
They tried to work their way into becoming "children of the promise."

The stumbling stone is a bit confusing as well. We do know that they stumbled. Continuing in Romans 10, How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? 

Romans 10:19
Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, "I will make you envious by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding."

The stumbling stones purpose?


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## hobbs27 (Sep 11, 2018)

*Galatians 6:15-16 New Living Translation (NLT)*
15 It doesn’t matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation. 16 May God’s peace and mercy be upon all who live by this principle; they are the new people of God.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 11, 2018)

hobbs27 said:


> *Galatians 6:15-16 New Living Translation (NLT)*
> 15 It doesn’t matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation. 16 May God’s peace and mercy be upon all who live by this principle; they are the new people of God.



 "they are the new people of God." Were there old people of God at some time previous?
 Was this Israel?

Another interpretation of Galatians 6:16:

And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. 

Did something happen or change that allowed the children of promise to change to this "new people of God?


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 11, 2018)

How do we look at Paul's emotion concerning Israel? He is in “unceasing anguish” for Israel’s salvation. Why does he feel this way even starting chapter 9 with this anguish.
He then turns towards God's predestination about the children of the promise. His child of promise with Abraham's son Isaac. His child of promise with Jacob. God having mercy on whom he will have mercy.
The Potter parable of vessels and of God hardening Pharoah for his purpose?
Yet Paul keeps on mentioning National Israel through chapters 9-11.

Back to the promise?

Exodus 32:13
Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel(Jacob), to whom you swore by your own self: 'I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.'"

I guess what I'm wondering is if the children of the promise changed from National Israel to spiritual Israel or has Israel always been spiritual Israel?

Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

Romans 9:4
the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.

Maybe a better way to ask; Did God take away the promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and give them to the Church? Did God take away the promises to the natural nation of Israel and give them to spiritual Israel?
Did God take away Israel's adoption to sonship, the glory, the promised land, the promises and give them to spiritual Israel?
Give them to the Gentiles who were, at that time, without God and hope. Foreigners to the covenants of promise. Separate from Christ as explained in Ephesians 2:12?

Was it like that or were the children of the promise always who they've always been? Paul makes it appear that something in time happened to change the children of the promise from one group to the other. From natural Israel to spiritual Israel perhaps.

But to Moses God said about Israel;
  "I will make you envious by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding."

Also God said;
"I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me."

It's almost like God made this happen this way for a reason. This hardening of Israel to allow the Gentiles in. This to make natural Israel jealous. To allow those who were not a part of the Commonwealth in. 

Maybe when I read chapter's 10 and 11 it will be revealed.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 11, 2018)

Paul's agony over Israel? Should we have this same agony? Why would Paul care realizing who the New Israel is? Why did he mention in verse 4; the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship and the promises?


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## hobbs27 (Sep 11, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> "they are the new people of God." Were there old people of God at some time previous?
> Was this Israel?
> 
> Another interpretation of Galatians 6:16:
> ...



The two Israel's were physical Israel and the Israel from above. The Christians  IE. Folks born from above are the children of the Promise.
  You need to consider what was going on at the time Paul is writing. Christian's were the true children of God while the Jews were claiming to be the children of God. The Jews had the priesthood, the numbers, the Temple, and were actively persecuting the Christian's. The Jewish power over Christianity ended in AD70 , and the Christian martyrs were vindicated in that.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 11, 2018)

hobbs27 said:


> The two Israel's were physical Israel and the Israel from above. The Christians  IE. Folks born from above are the children of the Promise.
> You need to consider what was going on at the time Paul is writing. Christian's were the true children of God while the Jews were claiming to be the children of God. The Jews had the priesthood, the numbers, the Temple, and were actively persecuting the Christian's. The Jewish power over Christianity ended in AD70 , and the Christian martyrs were vindicated in that.



Then physical Israel never had any promises from God? Never were the children of the promises? No glory or adoption to sonship mentioned in Romans 9:4? No promises?
The Gentiles then were never without hope and God because they could not be strangers to a commonwealth of promises that didn't exist.

If the children of the promise were always through the same way God chose Isaac and Jacob. Not from a fleshy union but a spiritual union.
A union chose by God. God having mercy on whom he will have mercy.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 11, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> Then physical Israel never had any promises from God? Never were the children of the promises? No glory or adoption to sonship mentioned in Romans 9:4? No promises?
> The Gentiles then were never without hope and God because they could not be strangers to a commonwealth of promises that didn't exist.
> 
> If the children of the promise were always through the same way God chose Isaac and Jacob. Not from a fleshy union but a spiritual union.
> A union chose by God. God having mercy on whom he will have mercy.



Why do people assume that the first century church was made up of all these Gentiles, when the truth is most were Jews and Israelites of the Diaspora?


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 11, 2018)

hobbs27 said:


> Why do people assume that the first century church was made up of all these Gentiles, when the truth is most were Jews and Israelites of the Diaspora?



I'm not assuming that at all. What I'm asking is was the children of the promises first to national Israel through Isaac and Jacob or were the promises always to spiritual Israel?

To me scripture reads as if God made those who were not a nation to make Israel jealous. Those who were not seeking found God.
Paul is the one in anguish over national Israel. Why aren't we?
Paul is the one who said that the Gentiles were without God and hope, strangers to the Commonwealth of Israel with whom the promises were made.

That's one way to read it. The other way is that the children of the promises have always been spiritual Israel. The Remnant and the Gentiles. Those predestined to adoption before time.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 11, 2018)

Reading about the children of the promise in Romans 9, I must say I see God having mercy on whom he will have mercy. Like man tries to intervene by giving God a child of promise but God doesn't operate that way. God gave the child of mercy to Abraham. God chose Jacob. 
Even though man tries to do it his way, it doesn't work that way.

Examples of the Potter are given, Examples of hardening are given to include Pharoah. God having mercy on whom he will have mercy. 

I'm also reading a story line of  God blinding Israel. God perhaps presenting salvation to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous. 
Paul's anguish for Israel. God having mercy on whom he will have mercy.

God choosing a child of promise on many occasions as a way to show how all the children of the promises are chosen.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 11, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm not assuming that at all. What I'm asking is was the children of the promises first to national Israel through Isaac and Jacob or were the promises always to spiritual Israel?
> 
> To me scripture reads as if God made those who were not a nation to make Israel jealous. Those who were not seeking found God.
> Paul is the one in anguish over national Israel. Why aren't we?
> ...



Paul is in anguish because he knows their time was running out. They were in the last days and those that did not accept Christ would soon be under great tribulation. His kinsmen.

Physical Israel, and the Jews that chose the law over the spirit were children of the flesh IE . Old covenant ..Hagar.

Christ made the ultimate sacrifice to bring them out of that bondage, that they may be born again ( from above). They were made jealous in an attempt to draw them into the Gospel...God was working on them, drawing them out of the harlot, bringing all those , whosoever wills into His church. That they may be born of The Seed (Christ) and the New Covenant Sarah.
Only folks born from above are children of the promise...the promise being the kingdom of God  and eternal life.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 11, 2018)

Romans 10 starts again as Romans 9 with Paul worried about the Israelites.
"Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved."
Paul says the Israelites didn't understand the way to righteousness. That being Jesus had done away with the Law. That there is no difference between the Jew and Gentile. Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? But not all the Israelites accepted the good news.
But concerning Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people."


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 11, 2018)

Romans 11. Believe it or not, Paul is still talking about national Israel. Even though he told us all about predestination and election in chapter 9. How God decided on who would be the child of promise through Isaac and Jacob. How God can have mercy on whom he will have mercy.

Then on in chapter 10 how he explains  the way of righteousness for the Jew and the Gentile.

Romans 11 Paul ask did God reject his people? I think not because I am an Israelite myself. God did not reject his people that he foreknew.
God chose a remnant from Israel by grace and not works. That's the way God operates. He will have mercy on whom he will have mercy.
It couldn't be by works or it wouldn't be grace.

What did God do to the rest of Israel? What did the Potter do to Pharoah in chapter 9? He hardened them all. His choice, his mercy. His election.

“God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see, and ears that could not hear, to this very day.”
Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.
That goes well with what Moses said;
"I will make you envious by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding."


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## gordon 2 (Sep 11, 2018)

I think that maybe lots of smart folk  were fond of knowing what scripture said, and missed the mark on what our God meant ie: Jesus. Not unlike today. The more it changed the more it becomes the same, even today. For all the knowledge many had, many have none that was gleaned from fellowship with a living God! I bet a buck that if Jesus came back today he would be checked out most by what scripture said, than what a simple faith in God might indicated concerning him. And if I'm right then righteousness has two definitions: One has its source in researching scripture and the other by living it.


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## 1gr8bldr (Sep 11, 2018)

Children of the promise, same promise that Abraham got, as he was called out, not knowing where he was going, he went, by faith, and God promised, I will be with you.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 11, 2018)

gordon 2 said:


> I think that maybe lots of smart folk  were fond of knowing what scripture said, and missed the mark on what our God meant ie: Jesus. Not unlike today. The more it changed the more it becomes the same, even today. For all the knowledge many had, many have none that was gleaned from fellowship with a living God! I bet a buck that if Jesus came back today he would be checked out most by what scripture said, than what a simple faith in God might indicated concerning him. And if I'm right then righteousness has two definitions: One has its source in researching scripture and the other by living it.



I'm not sure righteousness comes from researching it or living it. The remnant was chosen from Israel by grace and not works. So I think maybe some  scripture research is important.
Maybe not important to dig as deep as some of us do. I could go watch the Bachelor with my wife.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 11, 2018)

Continuing on in Romans 11.
Salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous.… Israel's transgression brings riches for the world. Israel's loss means riches for the Gentiles.

For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? Paul is still talking about national Israel. Even though he knows God has mercy on whom he has mercy and can elect whomever he wants, Jew or Gentile.

Next comes the olive tree. If the root is holy then so are the branches. Some of the natural branches were broken off and wild branches grafted in. These wild branches should not boast as the holy root is what supports you. If God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. If the natural branches do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
God will be far more eager to graft the natural branches back into the tree where they belong than he was to graft in unnatural branches.

Now Paul talks of a mystery!
Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,


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## hummerpoo (Sep 12, 2018)

hobbs27 said:


> *Galatians 6:15-16 New Living Translation (NLT)*
> 15 It doesn’t matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation. 16 May God’s peace and mercy be upon all who live by this principle; they are the new people of God.



Exemplary translation shopping.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 12, 2018)

hobbs27 said:


> Paul is in anguish because he knows their time was running out. They were in the last days and those that did not accept Christ would soon be under great tribulation. His kinsmen.
> 
> Physical Israel, and the Jews that chose the law over the spirit were children of the flesh IE . Old covenant ..Hagar.
> 
> ...



You said on another thread;
There is an image of two Israel's as set forth by Ishmael and Isaac.
Ishmael being the fleshly seed of Abraham, ( flesh representing the law system) and Isaac being the seed of Abraham in Spirit.

In Galatians 4, this is used as an illustration or allegorically. Paul was using Sarah/Isaac and Hagar/Ishmael as representations of the Law and Grace. Hagar/Ishmael were the Law. Hagar corresponds to physical Jerusalem and the Law.
Sarah, represents the heavenly Jerusalem.

Hagar is slavery and Sarah is freedom in this illustration.

Ishmael was a child of flesh and Isaac was a child of promise and  born by the Spirit. A child of God, elected by God.

And you, dear brothers and sisters, are children of the promise, just like Isaac.

You said; Only folks born from above are children of the promise.
Don't you think you may have that backwards? If we are to compare our being a child of promise with that of Isaac?

Galatians 4:30
But what does Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son."

Realizing this story in Galatians is an illustration of the Law and grace and back to reality:

Genesis 17:19-20
But God replied, “Your wife Sarah will indeed bear you a son, and you are to name him Isaac. I will establish My covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. 20As for Ishmael, I have heard you, and I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and multiply him greatly. He will become the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.

What was Ishmael's inheritance from God? It wasn't a covenant inheritance such as the Law given through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, then Moses.

Just showing you that the illustration in Galatians was just that.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 12, 2018)

Genesis 17:19
Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.

Isaac gets a covenant with God, Ishmael gets a nation.

Genesis 17:23
On that very day Abraham took his son Ishmael and all those born in his household or bought with his money, every male in his household, and circumcised them, as God told him.

Interesting, a circumcised Arab blessed by God.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 12, 2018)

I was going to move on and finish Romans 11 but this "everlasting covenant" got me to revisit chapter 9.

Being descendants of Abraham doesn't make them truly Abraham's children. We know that Abraham had many children of the flesh to include Ishmael and other children.

We also know that the child of promise was Isaac and that is who the everlasting covenant was passed on through.

We also know that the children of the flesh through Ishmael are not God's children but the children of the Spirit through Isaac are.
Isaac was the child of promise. It is through Isaac that your children will be counted.

Then on to the twins of Isaac, Esau and Jacob. God chooses Jacob, and not by works mind you. Another child of the promise is chosen. The lineage continues.

God says to Moses “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

We could also say that not all of Isaac's descendants were children of the promise as well but only those of Jacob.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 13, 2018)

Genesis 48:14
And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it on Ephraim’s head, who was the younger, and his left hand on Manasseh’s head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn. 

Another child of promise?


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## hobbs27 (Sep 13, 2018)

What if Ishmael was never suppose to represent Arab nations as we are taught today, but was always meant to represent the children of old covenant Jerusalem? Allegorically speaking.
Old covenant Jerusalem is called , Babylon, Sodom and a Harlot in scripture.

Ishmael was the father of twelve rulers. How many houses of Israel?


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 13, 2018)

hobbs27 said:


> What if Ishmael was never suppose to represent Arab nations as we are taught today, but was always meant to represent the children of old covenant Jerusalem? Allegorically speaking.
> Old covenant Jerusalem is called , Babylon, Sodom and a Harlot in scripture.
> 
> Ishmael was the father of twelve rulers. How many houses of Israel?



I was trying to see it from that perspective as well. God had Abraham circumcise Ishmael. Circumcision being a sign of a covenant.

God  blessed Ishmael and promised to make him a great nation as well.
He just wasn't the "child of promise" that Isaac was. He was a child of a fleshy union. Ishmael had promise from God, just not a covenant inheritance. He had promises but not "the promise."

Paul did use him as an illustration for the Old covenant Jerusalem.
Ishmael wasn't the heir of inheritance. That was to be Isaac's.

That still doesn't explain this;
"It is through Isaac that your children will be counted."
We still have that physical lineage or genealogy from Isaac and Jacob. Jacob is physical Israel as well as spiritual Israel. The remnant can trace their lineage through Jacob. That's the lineage from the "child of promise."

"the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship"
"Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah,"
The lineage from Isaac has to be physical as well as spiritual in order for Jesus to come from that genealogy.

Also we know that the Deliverer will remove ungodliness from Jacob,
(physical Israel).


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 13, 2018)

hobbs27 said:


> What if Ishmael was never suppose to represent Arab nations as we are taught today, but was always meant to represent the children of old covenant Jerusalem? Allegorically speaking.
> Old covenant Jerusalem is called , Babylon, Sodom and a Harlot in scripture.
> 
> Ishmael was the father of twelve rulers. How many houses of Israel?



Still looking from that perspective, in Romans 9 Paul said;
"For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel."

I assumed that meant from Jacob. For not all who are descended from Jacob are Israel.
Maybe it means not all who are from physical Israel are spiritual Israel.
I can't find an interpretation that uses Jacob for the first Israel.

So if it's the second interpretation or a something totally different, Maybe some of physical Israel did come from Ishmael but not the ones promised through Isaac.
Paul goes on to show that some of Abraham's descendants are from other children. Children of the flesh. Only some of Abraham's descendants are from the children of Isaac. Not all of Isaac's descendants are children of the promise either as some belong to Esau. They didn't come from Jacob.

So maybe not all of Israel is Israel. They all could be from Abraham but not Jacob. Some from Ishmael, some from Esau, and even if we continue with Jacob's children. How many interventions did God perform until the one and only true begotten Son was born?
I say every birth in that genealogy was a child of promise.

"It is through Isaac that your children will be counted."


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 13, 2018)

I don't think we can totally desperate the spiritual from the physical. At least not yet. Not as long as we are still physical. 

God chose Israel and made an everlasting covenant with them. Paul tells us this in Roman 9-11. The genealogy is still there. It hasn't changed from one promise to another. It was just added to, enlarged.

Ephesians 2:12-14
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. 14For He Himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has torn down the dividing wall of hostility


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## hobbs27 (Sep 13, 2018)

The endless covenant is the new covenant through Christ, the seed of Abraham. Only those of Christ are the children of the promise. 

*The Changeless Promise*
15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though _it is_ only a man’s covenant, yet _if it is_confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 13, 2018)

hobbs27 said:


> The endless covenant is the new covenant through Christ, the seed of Abraham. Only those of Christ are the children of the promise.
> 
> *The Changeless Promise*
> 15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though _it is_ only a man’s covenant, yet _if it is_confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ



Then the promise was only made to Jesus? How can there be children of the promise if the promise was only made to Abraham's Seed which is Jesus?

That's the only promise God has ever made with Abraham? That Jesus would be his Seed. What about "It is through Isaac that your children will be counted?"


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 13, 2018)

Genesis 15:18 
On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the Wadi of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates- 

Is this God promising to the Seed of Abraham which is Jesus?

Genesis 26:3 
Stay in this land for a while, and I will be with you and will bless you. For to you and your descendants I will give all these lands and will confirm the oath I swore to your father Abraham.

Is this is a promise to Isaac, the child of promise, or to Jesus?

Hebrews 6:13-14
When God made His promise to Abraham, since He had no one greater to swear by, He swore by Himself,   14saying, “I will surely bless you and multiply your descendants.” 

This is a promise to the Seed?

Again I repeat;
"It is through Isaac that your children will be counted."


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 13, 2018)

A promise of restoration in Jeremiah 32;
This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says:

Jeremiah 32:37-39
I will surely gather My people from all the lands to which I have banished them in My furious anger and great wrath, and I will return them to this place and make them dwell in safety. 38They will be My people, and I will be their God. 39I will give them one heart and one way, so that they will always fear Me for their own good and for the good of their children after them. 

Ezekiel 37:26 
I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever.


Ezekiel 36:29 
I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you.

“The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob."


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 13, 2018)

I'm back on Ishmael again. This was something I found interesting;

 "The difference one will argue is the Mother giving he birth. As Isac was born to Sarai and Abram, his half sister yet of the same people.
Wile Hagar was Egyptian so Ishmael had Hebrew father and Egyptian mother. 

But Asenath was the wife of Joseph and the mother of Ephraim and Manasseh.   The daughter of Poti-pherah the priest of On. The Egyptian Pharaoh gave to Joseph, son of Jacob, Asenath, to be his wife. She bore Joseph two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim, who each became patriarchs of their own tribes of Israel.

This shows that Hagar been Egyptian is not having any effect on the fact the Ishmael was a Hebrew, because he was a son of Abraham the Hebrew."


  “And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of 12 rulers, and I will make them into a great nation.” 

What great nation was this? God made the 12 into one great nation.

"_Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's      son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid, bore unto Abraham:      And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names,      according to their generations: The firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth,      and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam, and Mishma, and Dumah, and      Massa, Hadad and Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedmah. These are the      sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns and      by their encampments; twelve princes according to their nations_."      Genesis 25:12-16 

I wonder what this great nation is? Maybe it hasn't been made yet. It was a promise from God.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 14, 2018)

I see old covenant Israel as a shadow of the New Covenant Israel from above. Israelites as a shadow of Christian's,  IE Gods children!

Paul said the hope of Israel was the resurrection.  So those that died and were in Sheol were awaiting the Seed of Abraham (Jesus), that they may hear and be raised ...born from above. Those living at that time had to hear ( understand and believe) the Gospel that they too could be born from above. They would be brought together into one body ( group of people) as citizens of the New Jerusalem...Kingdom of God.

Today that shadow has passed. Israel is just a heathen nation and always will be.


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## Brother David (Sep 14, 2018)

Simple answer the way I understand it .
   The Children of Promise are the Jewish people through the line of Seth , the Gentiles are the rest of Us . John 1:12 lets us know through belief we have become Children of God ( basically we're adopted ) . The Jewish people will get second chance to repent during judgement , the Gentiles won't .


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 14, 2018)

Brother David said:


> Simple answer the way I understand it .
> The Children of Promise are the Jewish people through the line of Seth , the Gentiles are the rest of Us . John 1:12 lets us know through belief we have become Children of God ( basically we're adopted ) . The Jewish people will get second chance to repent during judgement , the Gentiles won't .



I think everything in the Old Testament may be a shadow of the future. Adam, the flood, the Ark, the covenants, Ishmael & Isaac, Esau & Jacob, etc.

We can all see the similarities  and how they mirrored future events. We can use them as illustrations, allegories, types, shadows, mirrors, etc.

Just a the ark can be used to show the Ark, Paul used Ishmael and Isaac to show the Law and Freedom, hardening & election, promises old and new, eternal promises, mercy and grace, and we must include reconciliation.

Perhaps Ishmael and Isaac can be used to show this reconciliation. Each as a shadow of a great nation. I assume God's plan included Ishmael's great nation as well.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 14, 2018)

It's seems very deep for me to think about the whole Old Testament being orchestrated by God to provide these types and shadows.
The whole Jewish genealogy thing. The promises to Abraham. All of the twists in that genealogy's history. The marriage and family turmoil within Abraham's family tree. The adultery, the family feuds, the brothers fighting, the jealousy, the broken promises, the strife, the crisis, the election and predestination, the covenants, God's intervention, the prophesy, and on and on.

We're talking a 7,000 year plan. All just to provide types, mirrors, and shadows? All of this and to say it has nothing to do with physical Israel but to provide shadows? The God of Israel?

The kings, kingdoms, wars, nations, marriages, divorces, adultery, harlots, slavery, etc. 

I might could see it that way if it was only 300 years. Too much genealogy and time just to provide a path for Jesus to be born Jewish.
Just to provide shadows of the future.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 14, 2018)

“I will make you into a great nation,"

"It is through Isaac that your children will be counted."

Israel in part? Israel within Israel? Not all of Israel is Israel.

“a partial hardening has happened to Israel"

"as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,"

Ezekiel 20:5
and tell them that this is what the Lord GOD says: ‘On the day I chose Israel, I swore an oath to the descendants of the house of Jacob and made Myself known to them in the land of Egypt. With an uplifted hand I said to them, “I am the LORD your God.”

Has God cancelled his promises to Israel? Were the Old Testament promises just a mirror or shadow of the new covenant?


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## hummerpoo (Sep 14, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> It's seems very deep for me to think about the whole Old Testament being orchestrated by God to provide these types and shadows.
> The whole Jewish genealogy thing. The promises to Abraham. All of the twists in that genealogy's history. The marriage and family turmoil within Abraham's family tree. The adultery, the family feuds, the brothers fighting, the jealousy, the broken promises, the strife, the crisis, the election and predestination, the covenants, God's intervention, the prophesy, and on and on.
> 
> We're talking a 7,000 year plan. All just to provide types, mirrors, and shadows? All of this and to say it has nothing to do with physical Israel but to provide shadows? The God of Israel?
> ...



See if you can rethink this post making it consistent with Rm. 2:11, and other like passages.  If you succeed, you may even find that it has a profound effect on the stumbling block between the OT and the NT.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 14, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> See if you can rethink this post making it consistent with Rm. 2:11, and other like passages.  If you succeed, you may even find that it has a profound effect on the stumbling block between the OT and the NT.



Romans 2:10
but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

I wonder why it mentions "first for the Jew, then the Gentile?"

Then it concerns people doing works. People who do good. It addresses people who do evil. It's a good vs evil theme instead of an elect vs non-elect theme.
Then it goes in to doers of the Law vs not doers of the Law.

I'm not really sure how to see this concerning election to salvation. We read that God can have mercy on whom he can have mercy. God chose Israel. God chose a remnant from Israel and hardened the rest. He did this based on grace and not works.
So the way I see God operating is that he can choose to save all Israel if he wants to. Especially if he made a promise to Israel to do this. He is the Potter. He gets to choose.

It's kinda like the way God chooses more kids of believers than he does kids of the Muslims or the Hindu. Even though he isn't a respecter of men he chose Isaac over Ishmael. He chose Jacob over Esau.

In a way God is showing partiality by whom he elects. He doesn't show partiality as to which humans were born capable of sin.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 14, 2018)

If God doesn't show partiality, why did he choose physical Israel to start with? Whether he set them up to fail or succeed matters not if he chose them. He chose Israel and made promises to Israel. Perhaps as a way to bring salvation to the world but still he chose them.
He elected a remnant from this chosen nation and hardened the rest. He did this within that physical nation.

Now he may choose a remnant from other nations and he may harden the rest within those nations as well. It's still choosing. Some make it and some don't. It isn't based on works but it's still God choosing.

God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. This is a big part of what Paul is teaching in Romans 9-11.

I don't believe Romans 2:11 is teaching God's promises to physical Israel. Neither is Galatians 4. It is that salvation was opened up to the whole world. The children of the promise increased.

Concerning Israel as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. For God's gifts and his call can never be withdrawn.

It's all about the promises. It's not God showing partiality because God is the one that chose Israel in the first place. I don't know why he chose Israel out of the thousands of other nations. He can make children for Abraham out of rocks.
Yet history tells us he chose Isaac as the child of promise. "It is through Isaac that your children will be counted."

I think that God choosing Israel set up a precedent. God made the promises with Israel. Actually even with men before Israel.
It's not like he chose them as the only ones to receive blessings and salvation.

Israel is just too much a part of the Bible for it to not mean more than what some people make of it.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 14, 2018)

1) Is salvation the paramount issue?

2)"It is that salvation was opened up to the whole world."
    Was it closed?


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 14, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> 1) Is salvation the paramount issue?
> 
> 2)"It is that salvation was opened up to the whole world."
> Was it closed?



It's not the paramount issue I'm looking at answerd for. Sometimes I see a parallel issue of physical salvation and spiritual salvation within scripture. Perhaps a physical salvation according to God's promises to physical Israel and then a spiritual salvation for spiritual Israel.

I'm not sure these to parallels exist, just that sometimes it appears to be. I see salvation as being both physical and spiritual. Like warning Christians to flee the city. That sounds like physical salvation.

I see a physical restoration, cities being rebuilt. Gathering, recovering, and restoring. Houses, fields, and vineyards. 

Then I see another salvation. A spiritual one that Paul is in anguish over his fellow countrymen. A New Jerusalem from above.
Maybe the two Jerusalems, or Israels, or whatever are the same thing. Maybe there is only one.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 14, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> 1) Is salvation the paramount issue?
> 
> 2)"It is that salvation was opened up to the whole world."
> Was it closed?


#2, salvation  opened or closed to the world? I don't think it was ever completely closed. Maybe the Gentiles needed a way in. There was a dividing wall that needed to be removed. Maybe Paul revealed this mystery. 
Was the mystery that the wall was never impassable? Perhaps they just didn't know how to enter. 
 What if God hardened all the Gentiles until he chose a remnant of Jews and hardened the rest of the Jews? Then he elected whatever Gentiles he wanted to make Israel jealous.
Similar to the way God elects more individuals from Christian nations than he does other nations or electing children of Christian parents over the children of Hindu parents.

It's not that God is showing favoritism. He is just having mercy on whom he'll have mercy.

Paul says in Ephesians;

Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

The revelation of the mystery kept hidden since the world began. 

I don't no how this mystery revelation let the wall come down between the Jews and Gentiles. I think it goes all the way back to God choosing Israel. Back to God having mercy on whom he will have mercy.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 14, 2018)

The mystery of "Israel's blindness" in Romans 11.

Isaiah 14:1
For the LORD will have compassion on Jacob and choose Israel once again. He will settle them on their own land. The foreigner will join them and be united with the house of Jacob.

Ephesians 2:19
Therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens of the saints and members of God's household,

Something happened to allow these foreigners and strangers in. 

In chapter 11 Paul again starts out concerned with "his people." Did God reject his people? Paul said, he didn't reject me and I'm a Jew.
Paul goes on to explain that God has chosen a remnant of Jews by grace and not works. Then the rest of Israel was hardened.

"God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day." This needed according to God's plan to allow salvation to the Gentiles.
But they didn't stumble so for as to not recover.
Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

Romans 11:12
But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

Then he talks about Israel being the olive tree, natural branches broken off, and the Gentile branches being grafted in.
If the hardened Jews do not persist in unbelief, they can be grafted back in.

Then Paul tells of a mystery;
Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,
And so all Israel will be saved.
As it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob." And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

Why do you suppose Paul is telling the Gentiles this? That they shouldn't be conceited with their election?

Paul tells us;
"as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.

Romans 11:33
Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!

What that means is "God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy."


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## hobbs27 (Sep 15, 2018)

If when asked  was salvation closed, means was eternal life closed? The answer is absolutely yes. The old covenant could not and did not offer salvation. Salvation was their hope.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 15, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> It's not the paramount issue I'm looking at answerd for. Sometimes I see a parallel issue of physical salvation and spiritual salvation within scripture. Perhaps a physical salvation according to God's promises to physical Israel and then a spiritual salvation for spiritual Israel.
> 
> I'm not sure these to parallels exist, just that sometimes it appears to be. I see salvation as being both physical and spiritual. Like warning Christians to flee the city. That sounds like physical salvation.
> 
> ...


So, salvation is the paramount issue?


Artfuldodger said:


> The mystery of "Israel's blindness" in Romans 11.
> 
> Isaiah 14:1
> For the LORD will have compassion on Jacob and choose Israel once again. He will settle them on their own land. The foreigner will join them and be united with the house of Jacob.
> ...





Artfuldodger said:


> #2, salvation  opened or closed to the world? I don't think it was ever completely closed. Maybe the Gentiles needed a way in. There was a dividing wall that needed to be removed. Maybe Paul revealed this mystery.
> Was the mystery that the wall was never impassable? Perhaps they just didn't know how to enter.
> What if God hardened all the Gentiles until he chose a remnant of Jews and hardened the rest of the Jews? Then he elected whatever Gentiles he wanted to make Israel jealous.
> Similar to the way God elects more individuals from Christian nations than he does other nations or electing children of Christian parents over the children of Hindu parents.
> ...





Artfuldodger said:


> The mystery of "Israel's blindness" in Romans 11.
> 
> Isaiah 14:1
> For the LORD will have compassion on Jacob and choose Israel once again. He will settle them on their own land. The foreigner will join them and be united with the house of Jacob.
> ...


So, it was not closed?


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## hobbs27 (Sep 15, 2018)

*Galatians 2:21 New King James Version (NKJV)*
21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness _comes_ through the law, then Christ died in vain.”


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## Israel (Sep 15, 2018)

I have learned (if I have indeed learned anything at all)...that in relationship to, and with God, (and as I seek to speak before Him)...there is not nor cannot be any maneuvering into any position of meriting mercy.

In one sense it puts a man in the impossible position. It's an easily thing said in word, isn't it?

"Of course mercy can never be merited...for by its nature (and even definition _in word_) it is given by one to another in position _of meriting _something of judgment or condemnation."

In simpler terms it is a gift _to _one_ who has full expectation of the receipt of all he does not want, _and then, by grace_...something else appears. _And not _only_ expectation, but the present conviction in his estate _of deserving _of that something_ he does not want._

A wronged party in authority to another, rather than exercising such authority to prove himself right or righteous _over another_, and the rightness of His power over that other, forgoes that exercise...to the granting of _something else._

I say_ something else _specifically for in that _else_ is all of the something/Someone with whom we have to do. (We can leave aside, for now, matters of simply the material creation, over which, and in which we may also know a great suffering by resistance)

See that _rusty bolt_...for simplicity.

_Schooled is the man_ who is learning he is _always dealing_ with _something else. _He is trapped in circumstance of else, he is dealing with wives, children, friends, brothers/sisters, enemies..._fellows in the world _(all of whose relative position _to himself_ is subject to change...showing their "else"...wives can become enemy, children/family can betray no less than _once_ friend, and _even enemy_ can show a change).

You and I...whether we can see it, want to see it...may even be given to admit to seeing it are a "you" (just as I am to me...a "me") and are _being_ in an ocean of the "not you"...(as I am _in being_ in the _not me_). To you, _I am_ the "not me", to me...you are.

Schooled is the man is who is seeing this. Further schooled is the man who has been given to see the machinations employed to seek to turn the "not me" to itself...to make wives, children, husbands, friends, enemies...indeed, the whole of the world amenable to the "me". A man would, and does, seek _every point of leverage _he can muster from _himself_, in _himself_, of _himself._..to make the whole of creation..."like himself". From people it will be wrung (and seen as agreement to affection), a surrender of hostility of threat to himself...and from what remains in and of the creation, he will bend to will (as much as he is able) a _place of home_ to himself. A safer...if not safe...place...for himself. This is all of the world's occupation....continually, laboriously, relentlessly...driven. (See the "Princess and the Pea" for the sake of simplicity)

He will _order _all things...to himself. In both senses...seeking of alignment...and use of _whatever authority of command_ to issue...orders. Schooled is the man who sees the end of this thing. He is making he11 itself. Of course he may not see it! How could he? The self knows only one thing above all "I must be! and _must be me_" And from that must comes all a man may be allowed to know...until.

The "I am" appears.

Till then, no man knows whom he is opposing, and _always has been_ opposing in his use of strength _from himself _to seek to conform all...to himself. His exercise of self to the making _of all _"of self" is perfectly and only prescribed to frustration. And well earned...frustration. The will of man finally demonstrated perfectly to no avail is what a man may be saved from...by mercy.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 15, 2018)

If we look closely at Romans 9-11, we see that it is Paul who keeps on distinguishing between the Gentiles and Israel. That's one of the main topics of these three chapters. This is why Paul explains that God can have mercy on whom he will have mercy. That it will be a mystery we can't explain using human logic and reasoning concerning God's election and hardening.

He is asking about Israel. Did Israel stumble so as they can't recover?
Paul explains their blindness is not irreversible, and their darkness was never to be permanent. They tripped over the Stumbling Stone. That was all planned by God. He wanted Israel to fail thus the purpose of the Stumbling Stone.

Through their stumble salvation has come to the Gentiles. The stumble is temporary. God wanted to make Israel jealous of the Gentiles.

Imagine the slap in the face to the Jews. God takes their blessings and glory and extends them to the Gentiles. The Gentiles were becoming conceited by this. They were touting it in the face of the Jews.
This is why Paul wrote this. To tell them about the mystery. What was happening and why they should not be conceited.

This is why Paul explained it using the olive tree and branches being broken off and new ones being grafted.

It's the beginning of the reconciliation. Perhaps Isaac and Ismael can be used as a shadow of this world reconciliation.
Each became a great nation. We can't just toss Ishmael to the side as if God didn't have him in part of His plan.

Romans 11 is a warning to the Gentiles of a mystery revealed by Paul. That if the Gentiles are conceited about the natural branches, they themselves can be removed and the natural branches added back in. That this would please God even more than it pleased him to graft in the un-natural branches. Do not boast over those branches.

The Gentiles were grafted to the Israel olive tree contrary to nature.
How much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

The mystery is that the hardening was temporary to make Israel jealous.
Paul tells us that we won't understand that God can have mercy on whom he will have mercy. How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways!


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## Israel (Sep 16, 2018)

You make some wonderful points Art.

Mercy on whom He will have mercy. 

There's absolutely no place in that for _the thing_ requiring mercy (whether it acknowledges it or not) to have any control over its dispensing/revelation/manifestation. It is made clear, as in so many other _things _and _ways of God _that He alone is sovereign. The Sovereign One.

(For an exercise, if one is inclined, go to Leviticus in the giving of the law to Moses...see how many commands are followed by the phrase "I am the Lord". No explanation of the why of things, no appeal to man's reason to understand the commandment...just the succinct "I am the Lord".)

Fathers know children will weary them with "whys". An aware father, discerning father, also will recognize when such is coming from a place of desiring to know what the father knows...to an understanding _of the father, _and those_ whys which come only_ in response to a bristling at command/instruction...where _the_ _why_ serves _only_ as means of questioning authority. Even to its undercutting. Do we not know this?

It is not as though God (who indeed _knows all_...especially in our forming) is ignorant of our compelling to "why", to seek understanding, to _know_. Neither is He un-discerning. 

Teachers, in whatever capacity, also sense this. There are students...even quite magnificent students, who excel in the gaining of knowledge of a subject. Their motives are their own, to an end which is their own. Some diligently apply themselves to a mastery of subject, again, to their own end. Teachers may be impressed. 

But the teacher will well remember those best who caught "his passion", (if indeed he has any) developed an affinity to the teacher equal to, or greater than, the seeking of mastery in what he taught. They come to love the "subject"...not as means to end necessarily, but in a fellowship of _passion shared._ Yes, teachers know this. And those may not be among those who receive the National Science Award (or they may)...or those who garner the State Essay Writing championship.

Can there be...passion for God? This is not as seeming a ridiculous question posed to "believers" (myself _surely included_) as it might, on its face appear. Men study diligently for many reasons...some to only pass the Bar, some to only gain admission to Med School. To seek to excel _in competition _to a gaining of place, _instead of another._ (None of whom are denied _their passion, _but they are_ being revealed_) The passion for knowledge and mastery _of subject_ run deep. 

God is not ignorant.

Can a man find passion...for what he cannot, specifically, Whom he cannot "master"? Can a man...love God?

There is only One in which such passion may be found...and caught. And soon learn this _only as gift, given.  _By a Sovereign. 

There is no other way of reception. All of a man's passion to know cannot get him to that place. It, at best, can only reveal the _all of its perfect in-utility _when exhausted by chasm revealed. This revelation...is itself..._great mercy_.

Many followed Jesus right up to that place where their understanding was offended. And left. 

One _might think_ Jesus would have looked around, and seeing the disciples, _could have thought_, or said "whew, at least you guys are still here!". 

But, of course, He didn't. He opens a door with His question to them, a door _all other men_ furiously seek to keep shut in fear of abandonment, in fear of rejection. 

But Jesus! How very relentless you are! How inviting are you to what men may call "awkward moments!"
How very unmoved you are...by them. "Will you leave also?" 

O, Jesus, why couldn't you just leave it alone? Just see they were _still attending, still present..._and leave it at that?


Did Jesus think they understood His words better? Grasped his meaning _better_? Understood _better._..what it means to eat His body and drink His blood?

Can a man love God? And, if so...how?

Jesus gives man opportunity to answer. Rather, _He is_ what places man in place of compulsion of answer.

Man dancing around truth is approached by Truth, and _not asked_...

 "Will you dance with me?" 

But, "Are you my partner?"

By presenting Himself, he compels answer.

For in His very self _is the compelling of answer_...and He gives not less than _all of Himself._

_Can a man love God?  _

Can a man_ see _Jesus the Christ?


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