# What is faith?



## RH Clark (May 26, 2016)

I've been thinking about this subject a lot lately and I've come to the conclusion that the majority of Christians don't have a clue what faith is, much less how to operate in faith, so let's talk about it a little and see if we can shed some light and clear up some wrong thinking.

1. What is faith?
Hebrews 11:1 defines faith as the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. I submit to you that what most Christians call faith, is nothing more than hope. Most times a Christian is hoping that God will do something about their situation. They don't know what or why, or even how but they are hoping and calling it faith. Where is the substance? Where is the evidence of their faith?

I submit that actual faith comes from hearing and the hearing of God's word. Faith is a knowing and assurance in God's word, so much so that you will act on it, and believe that word over even what your natural senses tell you. 

The faith of Abraham hoped against hope when his body was old and Sara's womb was dead with age. He believed God's word even though what God said wasn't possible  naturally. Abraham and Sarah had to act on that faith. They didn't have a child at a hundred years old by just laying down and waiting on God to do something. Faith in God always has substance and evidence attached to it.

Later we will look at some more bible examples of faith. I hope to get some good comments and help from you folks too. Thanks for your consideration.


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## EverGreen1231 (May 26, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> I've been thinking about this subject a lot lately and I've come to the conclusion that the majority of Christians don't have a clue what faith is, much less how to operate in faith, so let's talk about it a little and see if we can shed some light and clear up some wrong thinking.
> 
> 1. What is faith?
> Hebrews 11:1 defines faith as the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. I submit to you that what most Christians call faith, is nothing more than hope. Most times a Christian is hoping that God will do something about their situation. They don't know what or why, or even how but they are hoping and calling it faith. Where is the substance? Where is the evidence of their faith?
> ...



It seems in many places where the Bible uses the word "hope" it's not being used in the modern connotation of an anticipated likelihood that may or may not come to pass, but an expected eventuality.



> but sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:



Here, the hope is not something that might happen, or some occurrence that could take place in the certain circumstances, but knowledge of facts; this is faith.


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## RH Clark (May 26, 2016)

EverGreen1231 said:


> It seems in many places where the Bible uses the word "hope" it's not being used in the modern connotation of an anticipated likelihood that may or may not come to pass, but an expected eventuality.
> 
> 
> 
> Here, the hope is not something that might happen, or some occurrence that could take place in the certain circumstances, but knowledge of facts; this is faith.



Yes, I agree. Let's add the Hebrews definition to that and say that faith gives an actual substance to that hope.

It's a substance that causes a person to believe and act differently than they would without that substance.


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## Israel (May 26, 2016)

Faith is what allows you to survive having done it all wrong, when you imagine you have done it right.
Faith is knowing that when Jesus says "Father forgive them, they know not what they do" I am the "they".
Faith is what reveals a man sees nothing until he does, knows nothing until it is made known, considers nothing until he is told to.
Faith is what saved Abraham after listening to his wife and begetting Ismael. And then finding God still faithful to his word in Isaac.
Faith is what considered Hagar and Ismael when cast out.
Faith is what showed Abraham he needn't be clever nor exercise his wits to the preserving of his household before the King to whom he said "she is my sister".
Faith is what allows a man to deal in truth among men when that very truth will be turned against the speaker and used as a device of weapon. (Tear down this temple) And the speaker has the faith that has already informed him of this.
Faith is what allows a man to believe in the great gathering to God even as he becomes a stranger to himself and all others in the  seeming profoundest of driftings apart.
Faith is what allows a man who knows well the scriptures to have faith for what is beyond his understanding of them.
Faith is what allows a man to know...what he does not know.
For faith is of God, in Christ.


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## gordon 2 (May 26, 2016)

"I've been thinking about this subject a lot lately and I've come to the conclusion that the majority of Christians don't have a clue what faith is, much less how to operate in faith, so let's talk about it a little and see if we can shed some light and clear up some wrong thinking." Quote RH Clark 

I would be interested in knowing what is the bases for your conclusion that the majority of Christians don't have a clue what faith is....? What do the majority of Christians believe regarding faith according to you?

As for me, a Christian, faith has its genesis in our Lord's Resurrection, especially that Peter was not smart enough a witness to speak from both sides of his mouth and therefore Jesus is He whom Isaiah wrote about to the Hebrews..." He comes Himself and will save you." And my faith comes from patience and charity which are aspects of love--which have their profoundest meanings in the classrooms of the Holy Spirit.


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## Israel (May 26, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> "I've been thinking about this subject a lot lately and I've come to the conclusion that the majority of Christians don't have a clue what faith is, much less how to operate in faith, so let's talk about it a little and see if we can shed some light and clear up some wrong thinking." Quote RH Clark
> 
> I would be interested in knowing what is the bases for your conclusion that the majority of Christians don't have a clue what faith is....? What do the majority of Christians believe regarding faith according to you?
> 
> As for me, a Christian, faith has its genesis in our Lord's Resurrection, especially that Peter was not smart enough a witness to speak from both sides of his mouth and therefore Jesus is He whom Isaiah wrote about to the Hebrews..." He comes Himself and will save you." And my faith comes from patience and charity which are aspects of love--which have their profoundest meanings in the classrooms of the Holy Spirit.


Ain't that a kicker?
It could even be: 


Faith is what _even_ allows a man to be saved from himself when he is sure he has faith, and equally sure few, if any, others do.


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## Artfuldodger (May 26, 2016)

When prayer's aren't answered it's because most Christians don't know what faith is? Don't they have faith in the things hoped for? We can only have hope in  "expected eventuality."

Let's use the example of a wife praying that her drunkard husband give up the bottle. Can she not have faith in the hope that God can intervene? If prayer is only for "expected eventuality" then why pray?  

If I get deathly sick, I'm praying for "intervention" not the expected eventuality of sure death.


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## gordon 2 (May 26, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> When prayer's aren't answered it's because most Christians don't know what faith is? Don't they have faith in the things hoped for? We can only have hope in  "expected eventuality."
> 
> Let's use the example of a wife praying that her drunkard husband give up the bottle. Can she not have faith in the hope that God can intervene? If prayer is only for "expected eventuality" then why pray?
> 
> If I get deathly sick, I'm praying for "intervention" not the expected eventuality of sure death.



The things hoped for in faith are more than not the promises of God. Regards prayers I understand that God knows what we require before we ask... we don't always pray for what is required.


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## Artfuldodger (May 26, 2016)

Is faith in God for salvation different than faith needed for God's intervention?


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## EverGreen1231 (May 26, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Is faith in God for salvation different than faith needed for God's intervention?



I wouldn't think so, but I may not understand your question. You either believe God or not.


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## gordon 2 (May 26, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Is faith in God for salvation different than faith needed for God's intervention?



Possibly because lots of people thank God for unanswered prayers--especially cancer patients who bargain for time to get the kids to school ( an extra three yrs) Because they think they have only a yr or two and are still kicking around 30 yrs after the fact.


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## RH Clark (May 26, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> "I've been thinking about this subject a lot lately and I've come to the conclusion that the majority of Christians don't have a clue what faith is, much less how to operate in faith, so let's talk about it a little and see if we can shed some light and clear up some wrong thinking." Quote RH Clark
> 
> I would be interested in knowing what is the bases for your conclusion that the majority of Christians don't have a clue what faith is....? What do the majority of Christians believe regarding faith according to you?
> 
> As for me, a Christian, faith has its genesis in our Lord's Resurrection, especially that Peter was not smart enough a witness to speak from both sides of his mouth and therefore Jesus is He whom Isaiah wrote about to the Hebrews..." He comes Himself and will save you." And my faith comes from patience and charity which are aspects of love--which have their profoundest meanings in the classrooms of the Holy Spirit.



Because I listen to how people pray and what they say after they have prayed. A man prays for God to heal him of cancer but based on what? Does he know a single scripture concerning his healing or is he just hoping? After praying he continually talks about how bad his cancer is, yet Jesus told us to believe when we pray. Did that man believe anything happened when he prayed or is he just hoping that sometime in the future maybe God will heal him?

God certainly knows what we need before we pray but you will never have faith in generalities. I listened to a man pray just last Sunday because the church has need of a van. It was basically just an acknowledgement that God knows what we need. God is never moved by need, only by faith. A better way to have prayed would have been going to God with his promise and expecting God to keep his word. Then thanking God for his promise even if you can't yet see it in the physical realm. That's where the force of patience comes in.

Let's talk about patience and charity. Both are necessary to activate faith but faith comes from believing the promises of God. Patience does not mean waiting until God does what he has promised. Patience is continuing to believe the promise is true no matter what the circumstance says. Charity or the God kind of love is the avenue through which faith works. Faith workth by love.


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## RH Clark (May 26, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> When prayer's aren't answered it's because most Christians don't know what faith is? Don't they have faith in the things hoped for? We can only have hope in  "expected eventuality."
> 
> Let's use the example of a wife praying that her drunkard husband give up the bottle. Can she not have faith in the hope that God can intervene? If prayer is only for "expected eventuality" then why pray?
> 
> If I get deathly sick, I'm praying for "intervention" not the expected eventuality of sure death.



The wife praying for the drunken husband would be better off using the authority God has given her to battle spiritual forces that are influencing her husband then asking Jesus to overpower a man's free will. Jesus is seated at God's right hand expecting until his enemies be made his footstool. Jesus has already conquered those enemies and given us authority over them. He is expecting us to place those enemies under his and our feet.

Concerning your healing, you should have hope but it should be hope in what Jesus has already done about your healing and in so doing you should stand on those promises. An unsure hope for what Jesus might do is not faith at all.


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## hobbs27 (May 26, 2016)

Faith...
 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.


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## RH Clark (May 26, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Faith...
> Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.



Good scripture application my friend. That's exactly what I'm talking about. A lot of Christians want to believe it when they see it. That's the way the world believes. Bible faith believes it because God said it, even before it can be seen.


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## gordon 2 (May 26, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Because I listen to how people pray and what they say after they have prayed. A man prays for God to heal him of cancer but based on what? Does he know a single scripture concerning his healing or is he just hoping? After praying he continually talks about how bad his cancer is, yet Jesus told us to believe when we pray. Did that man believe anything happened when he prayed or is he just hoping that sometime in the future maybe God will heal him?
> 
> God certainly knows what we need before we pray but you will never have faith in generalities. I listened to a man pray just last Sunday because the church has need of a van. It was basically just an acknowledgement that God knows what we need. God is never moved by need, only by faith. A better way to have prayed would have been going to God with his promise and expecting God to keep his word. Then thanking God for his promise even if you can't yet see it in the physical realm. That's where the force of patience comes in.
> 
> Let's talk about patience and charity. Both are necessary to activate faith but faith comes from believing the promises of God. Patience does not mean waiting until God does what he has promised. Patience is continuing to believe the promise is true no matter what the circumstance says. Charity or the God kind of love is the avenue through which faith works. Faith workth by love.



So what your getting at is faith healing and prayers in faith to receive something as opposed to faith in general promises?

I have studied faith healing somewhat and although faith is often accompanied in healing on the part of the person receiving or in receiving due to a prayer, sometimes healing and blessings have happened to people who were just desperate and had no faith. In some cases they believed post a miraculous answer, but some still did not believe and yet they received blessings.


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## RH Clark (May 26, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> So what your getting at is faith healing and prayers in faith to receive something as opposed to faith in general promises?
> 
> Yes and no. I think faith is faith. You can have faith for all God's promises. What I'm saying more is to let faith be more specific. If I needed extra money, just knowing that God is good won't likely help me any, but if I am a giver, I can stand on Luke 6:38, that I have given and I can have faith that it will be given again to me, pressed down and running over.
> I have studied faith healing somewhat and although faith is often accompanied in healing on the part of the person receiving or in receiving due to a prayer, sometimes healing and blessings have happened to people who were just desperate and had no faith. In some cases they believed post a miraculous answer, but some still did not believe and yet they received blessings.



I don't suppose I know exactly what you mean here. Some didn't believe at all but received anyway? Yes, miracles do happen and we know the scripture says that God makes the rain to fall on both the righteous and the unrighteous. However the scripture also says that Jesus himself could do no mighty works in his home town because of their unbelief Mark 6:5. Let me say that again, not Jesus wouldn't but Jesus couldn't because of their unbelief.


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## gordon 2 (May 26, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> I don't suppose I know exactly what you mean here. Some didn't believe at all but received anyway? Yes, miracles do happen and we know the scripture says that God makes the rain to fall on both the righteous and the unrighteous. However the scripture also says that Jesus himself could do no mighty works in his home town because of their unbelief Mark 6:5. Let me say that again, not Jesus wouldn't but Jesus couldn't because of their unbelief.



Yes, but I think if one studies faith healing for example, people have done more than Jesus did and for people who had no faith in some cases. 

I have read that at least one faith healer claimed that healing was to further people's faith and that people who had faith more than not were not healed, but rather it was expected that due their faith they knew to " suffer" as per Christ 's suffering due the "flesh" and "world.

 Romans  17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.


Also, their is an understanding in Christianity that our Lord's miracles were for purpose of sign so that the jews would believe he was the promised Saviour.

Isaiah 35:4-7King James Version (KJV)

4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.

5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.

6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.

7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.

King James Version (KJV)


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## Artfuldodger (May 26, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Good scripture application my friend. That's exactly what I'm talking about. A lot of Christians want to believe it when they see it. That's the way the world believes. Bible faith believes it because God said it, even before it can be seen.



Then it would be wrong to ask for prayers that end with "seen" results?

Romans 1:19
They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them.

Things unseen? We must admit there is some evidence that God exists.


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## Artfuldodger (May 26, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> I don't suppose I know exactly what you mean here. Some didn't believe at all but received anyway? Yes, miracles do happen and we know the scripture says that God makes the rain to fall on both the righteous and the unrighteous. However the scripture also says that Jesus himself could do no mighty works in his home town because of their unbelief Mark 6:5. Let me say that again, not Jesus wouldn't but Jesus couldn't because of their unbelief.



Could those same people in Jesus' home town have the faith to believe? An individual or two perhaps? I understand one must have faith in order to believe but is it wrong to ask for God to help you overcome things even if the odds are against you for overcoming without his intervention?

Should we only have faith to pray  for unseen things like everlasting life and not for seen things like  financial peace? I'm not really following your biblical definition of faith only being for unseen things. It does take more faith to believe in unseen things but I think part of faith could also be faith in seen things such as the result of prayer.

We pray for God to watch over our loved ones when they travel. When they reach their destination unscathed, that is a "seen" event. That is faith in God too.


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## RH Clark (May 26, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Could those same people in Jesus' home town have the faith to believe? An individual or two perhaps? I understand one must have faith in order to believe but is it wrong to ask for God to help you overcome things even if the odds are against you for overcoming without his intervention?
> 
> Should we only have faith to pray  for unseen things like everlasting life and not for seen things like  financial peace? I'm not really following your biblical definition of faith only being for unseen things. It does take more faith to believe in unseen things but I think part of faith could also be faith in seen things such as the result of prayer.
> 
> We pray for God to watch over our loved ones when they travel. When they reach their destination unscathed, that is a "seen" event. That is faith in God too.



You have misunderstood what I mean about seen or unseen. I'm not saying anything about not praying for seen things.

What I am saying is not to base your faith on evidence that you can see or feel. In other words, when I pray for healing I believe I receive when I pray, just as Jesus told us to do in Mark 11:24. I don't base whether I received anything on what I can see or not see. I only base what happened on what Jesus said about the situation in verses like 1 Peter 2:24. or Isaiah 53:4-5, or James 5:14-15. It is not faith to see and then believe. faith believes because God said.


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## Artfuldodger (May 26, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> You have misunderstood what I mean about seen or unseen. I'm not saying anything about not praying for seen things.
> 
> What I am saying is not to base your faith on evidence that you can see or feel. In other words, when I pray for healing I believe I receive when I pray, just as Jesus told us to do in Mark 11:24. I don't base whether I received anything on what I can see or not see. I only base what happened on what Jesus said about the situation in verses like 1 Peter 2:24. or Isaiah 53:4-5, or James 5:14-15. It is not faith to see and then believe. faith believes because God said.



OK, sorry about that. I think this post cleared it up. One shouldn't lose their faith or base their faith on the basis of unanswered prayers if you will. One shouldn't always expect to see results. 
The rain does fall on the good and bad. Bad things also fall on the saved & unsaved. 
Maybe we should just pray for God's will to be done and have enough faith to believe it will.


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## RH Clark (May 26, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> Yes, but I think if one studies faith healing for example, people have done more than Jesus did and for people who had no faith in some cases.
> 
> I have read that at least one faith healer claimed that healing was to further people's faith and that people who had faith more than not were not healed, but rather it was expected that due their faith they knew to " suffer" as per Christ 's suffering due the "flesh" and "world.
> 
> ...



 Gordon there is so much going on in this post that I will have to address several issues one at a time. I will number your quotes then try to address that issue, then skip some lines and go again.

1. "I have read that at least one faith healer claimed that healing was to further people's faith and that people who had faith more than not were not healed, but rather it was expected that due their faith they knew to " suffer" as per Christ 's suffering due the "flesh" and "world."

There is a bunch wrong with that thinking and I would not agree with any of it. Healing isn't given to help or to produce faith. Faith comes from hearing God's word and allowing it to grow in the heart just as Jesus explained in Mark:4 in the parable of the sower. Another part of this I will address in #2.



2.
"Romans  17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
"

This scripture isn't telling us to be sick and suffer. That is only something contrived by some tradition. Look at the context of the whole chapter. From the end of chapter 5 through your quote Paul is explaining how we are to identify with both the death and resurrection of Christ. In his death we see our old sinful man dead because of sin and in Christ's resurrection we see our new life in Christ justified before God. 

If then we are to suffer with Christ, what does that mean? Did Christ suffer with sickness or disease? This is speaking of Christ's suffering on the cross, not sickness. So how do we suffer with Christ on the cross? By identifying with his death and counting our old man dead. That is what the verse is saying. It is another way to echo the same thought that is stated in chapter 6.

Romans 6:4-8King James Version (KJV)
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:





3."Also, their is an understanding in Christianity that our Lord's miracles were for purpose of sign so that the jews would believe he was the promised Saviour."

No! Healing is part of God's covenant. Healings took place in the OT as well as the new. Scriptures like Psalms 103, Jeremiah 30:17 and many others prove that healing is part of God's covenant.


The major wrong thought in this whole post is not knowing  God's will toward healing. You cannot have faith where you don't know God's will. James says to ask in faith nothing wavering, for he that wavers is like a wave driven and tossed with the wind. Let that man not think he will receive anything of the Lord. God's word is his will. Let me say that again, GOD'S WORD IS HIS WILL!  You must have it settled for all time that when God says in Psalm 103 that one of his benefits is that he heals all your diseases, he means just that.

So you would ask then why do I have a disease, why does anyone? A lack of faith! A lack of even knowing what faith is, and a lack of even knowing what doubt and unbelief look like in a person's life. These are some of the issues I hope to address in the days to come in this thread. I hope to be able to show that what I am saying is sound doctrine as I will give many scriptures to show my case. I only ask that everyone consider what I am saying and let God's word be the deciding factor rather than the tradition that has been taught.


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## RH Clark (May 26, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> OK, sorry about that. I think this post cleared it up. One shouldn't lose their faith or base their faith on the basis of unanswered prayers if you will. One shouldn't always expect to see results.
> The rain does fall on the good and bad. Bad things also fall on the saved & unsaved.
> Maybe we should just pray for God's will to be done and have enough faith to believe it will.



Praying that God's will be done is part of it, but there is a major disconnect when you don't know what God's will is. It's like praying that prayer concerning healing. I've heard people pray " God let your will be done" for a sick person. What they were basically saying was "God you either heal them or let them die, whatever you want." There is zero faith in that prayer and you might as well not have prayed at all since you don't think it will have any influence on God at all.

Look at the ministry of Jesus and how he prayed for the sick. He always declared them healed. Jesus only prayed " God let your will be done" as a prayer of personal submission to God concerning his death.


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## Artfuldodger (May 26, 2016)

If one is to have faith without  seeing, why were there healings and other signs?
Christ couldn't heal in his own home town because of unbelief. Why did the people in the other towns believe?

I guess we could readdress the purpose of the signs and miracles.


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## Artfuldodger (May 26, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Praying that God's will be done is part of it, but there is a major disconnect when you don't know what God's will is. It's like praying that prayer concerning healing. I've heard people pray " God let your will be done" for a sick person. What they were basically saying was "God you either heal them or let them die, whatever you want." There is zero faith in that prayer and you might as well not have prayed at all since you don't think it will have any influence on God at all.
> 
> Look at the ministry of Jesus and how he prayed for the sick. He always declared them healed. Jesus only prayed " God let your will be done" as a prayer of personal submission to God concerning his death.



OK, now I'm back to being a little confused. The Lord's Prayer says "your will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven."
That's a little more than a prayer of personal submission.

I'm not following your example above concerning the prayer for the sick person. They didn't know what God's will was. Are they his council? Why was it a lack of faith to pray for God's will to be done? What should they pray for "seen results?"
Intervention? Should they have known God's will was for the person to get well and then pray for the person to get well? What if he died anyway? Would that be a lack of faith?

I'm thinking Jesus had a little more of his Father's power than we have. Now I'm not sure of his purpose for healing folks during his Earthly mission. I'm not sure our faith will ever be as strong as God's power working through his Son, Jesus.


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## gordon 2 (May 27, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Gordon there is so much going on in this post that I will have to address several issues one at a time. I will number your quotes then try to address that issue, then skip some lines and go again.
> 
> 1. "I have read that at least one faith healer claimed that healing was to further people's faith and that people who had faith more than not were not healed, but rather it was expected that due their faith they knew to " suffer" as per Christ 's suffering due the "flesh" and "world."
> 
> ...



I wait and consider with much interest. Thanks for the time your putting in this tread. Much appreciated.

Yet I will leave you with this for now: "And Stephen, full of grace and power, performed great miracles and signs among the people. Acts 6:8" This belongs to scripture, as it is recorded there, but also to tradition which has recorded it in the faith of believers that Stephen performed great miracles among sinners ( the lost)  and believers to the benefits of each.


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## RH Clark (May 27, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> OK, now I'm back to being a little confused. The Lord's Prayer says "your will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven."
> That's a little more than a prayer of personal submission.
> 
> I'm not following your example above concerning the prayer for the sick person. They didn't know what God's will was. Are they his council? Why was it a lack of faith to pray for God's will to be done? What should they pray for "seen results?"
> ...




Speaking of the prayer Jesus made, I was speaking more of him praying in the garden when he was seeking the will of God and submitting to that will. I was equating that prayer in the garden to a "if it be your will" prayer because it's the only time recorded where Jesus was questioning yet submitting to God's will.


Concerning praying God's will in what we call "The Lord's prayer", it isn't actually a prayer but an outline or example of how to pray. The disciples had asked Jesus to teach them how to pray, and Jesus's answer was "Pray after this manner." He wasn't saying." Repeat this prayer.", he was rather outlining a manner of prayer.

I'll try to give a short example: "Our father who art in heaven." WOW! What a concept! with this first sentence Jesus set the religious world on fire! This is the accused heresy that caused Jesus to be crucified, and by which religious rulers had tried several times before to kill him. The concept of God as Father. A God who can be approached, who loves his children. God as Father. So then we are to pray to God our Father, knowing that we will not be rejected.

"Hallowed be thy name" 
When we begin prayer, we should praise the name of God, which echoes the scripture " Enter into his gates with thanksgiving and into his courts with praise."


Thy kingdom come"
I might pray something similar to" God deliver us from this present world. I joyfully await your kingdom being established on this earth as you please. God please help me to do whatever you want so that your kingdom is established, not just on this physical world but in my heart and mind and in my life as well as the lives of others."

"thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"
This is not just a sentence to be repeated but a directive for believers to pray God's will on this earth according to his word. For Jesus to tell us to pray that God's will be done, tells me that God's will isn't always done on this earth. Everything that happens doesn't happen because God micro managed it to happen. We need to speak God's words concerning every situation that the Holy Spirit brings to our hearts.


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## RH Clark (May 28, 2016)

Now let's look at a bible example of faith and I will try to point out some things that you may not have ever thought about before.

Mark 5:25-34King James Version (KJV)
25 And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years,

26 And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse,

27 When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.

28 For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.

29 And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague.

30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?

31 And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?

32 And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing.

33 But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.

34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.


let's first examine verse 28
28 For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.

This verse points out the faith in her heart. Jesus said in Matt.12:24 that out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. Proverbs 18:21 tells us that death and life are in the power of the tongue. just listen to a person for a while when they aren't trying to talk churchy or sound good to you and you will know fairly quickly what is in their heart in abundance. I spoke before about a person who prays for healing and then immidiently speaks as though they didn't receive anything. They likely didn't because they have just revealed the doubt in their heart all along. They would not believe before they could see or feel the result, yet Jesus told us in Mark 11:24 to believe and we would have those things for which we pray. Jesus did not say to believe when we see that we have those things. he said believe first and then we would have them.

Another point I would like to make is that this woman wasn't one of todays confession obsessed Christians. She wasn't thinking if I say I will be healed when I touch Jesus enough times it will come true. NO, her faith was so strong in her heart that she could not help but say that which was in her heart in abundance. Also this woman's faith drove her to the front of the crowd that was pressing all around Jesus. She was weak from suffering for 12 years, and unless I'm mistaken she could have been lawfully stoned for being unclean in public. Her faith has both evidence and substance. It moved her.


Let's look at another aspect of this story.
Many people were crowding around and touching Jesus. I submit that many were doing so hoping something might happen. None however were healed save this one woman who touched Jesus in faith. Hoping and not knowing for sure what the outcome might be is not faith.

Another aspect here is when Jesus asked Peter who touched him. Peter was astounded because many people were touching Jesus. Jesus however knew when power had gone out of him. He knew someone had touched him in faith. I think it's important to note here that Jesus did not make a decision," will I heal or not" Faith reached out and took what was freely given to all with faith. Jesus didn't even know who had taken healing. For me this and many other examples that we can talk about later settle the question ,Is it God's will to heal anyone. I submit it is always God's will but it can only come through faith.


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## gordon 2 (May 28, 2016)

So do you believe that the women  who was  healed had more faith than anyone else in the pressing crowd?


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## RH Clark (May 28, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> So do you believe that the women  who was  healed had more faith than anyone else in the pressing crowd?



She may very well have been the only one there that had faith. In the next example I will use the scripture actually says the Spirit of the Lord was present to heal all that were gathered , yet only one man was healed.

What do you think?


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## jbogg (May 28, 2016)

On a related note I was hoping someone could give their thoughts on John Ortbergs theory that Faith actually requires Doubt.  His example is the equation 2 + 2 = 4.  We know with absolute certainty that this is true, since it can be proven.  No faith required.  His contention is that there must be a certain amount of doubt present for faith to be required.  

I would imagine many of us have days when our faith can be tested.  I certainly do.  Many days I find myself hoping there is a God.  It is rare for me when I feel that certainty.  I take comfort in Ortbergs message.  Not only is having doubts OK, but it is required.

Sorry if I sidetracked this thread, but I hoped this was close enough to being on topic to ask the question.


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## Israel (May 29, 2016)

Once, suffering a terrible headache, but in a situation of no excusing, that is pressed to "have to" continue on to a completion of task without foreseeable relief (I couldn't take a nap, take a pill, or even close my eyes for a few moments.) I sought the Lord as best I knew. I panted...hard for Him. (The relativity of these experiences is not lost on a soul, one may be enlightened to understanding my extremis was, more often, the lot of many)
But there I was pressed to consider. "Here I seek you hard Lord, here I am as serious with you as I can be...this is excruciating"
Yes. 
But...what of times of "no headache?" Am I as serious then, or do I...as was plainly shown...simply take "no sorrow" as the normal default, my right, so to speak, to then consider You if, or as I will? Am I as grateful, in those times...as even approaches my desperation in this time? I clearly saw...no...not at all. Not by a long shot.
I am a foolish man, a stubborn man, a man who forgets his image when walking away from the mirror. A  man so easily given to imagining things of himself, that it could be lie were I to say "I have learned now, how to be grateful" I don't know.
But I do know this...despite all that is seen in me, of me, and through me..."I can never be grateful...enough".
This overwhelming truth (to me) is more relief than can ever be seen on the face of it. To be...where the plain and simple is made so obviously beyond any of my ability in doing...where faith has shown, despite the plainest rebuke of my most sincerest of efforts as being inadequate, salvation.
How odd it is to a man who thinks so much of himself.


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## hobbs27 (May 29, 2016)

jbogg said:


> On a related note I was hoping someone could give their thoughts on John Ortbergs theory that Faith actually requires Doubt.  His example is the equation 2 + 2 = 4.  We know with absolute certainty that this is true, since it can be proven.  No faith required.  His contention is that there must be a certain amount of doubt present for faith to be required.
> 
> I would imagine many of us have days when our faith can be tested.  I certainly do.  Many days I find myself hoping there is a God.  It is rare for me when I feel that certainty.  I take comfort in Ortbergs message.  Not only is having doubts OK, but it is required.
> 
> Sorry if I sidetracked this thread, but I hoped this was close enough to being on topic to ask the question.



That's an interesting concept. I was once like that , but my days of doubt are long gone. Too many experiences with God to doubt anymore. I know God is, and I know He is the God of the Bible . I'm just trying to know Him better.


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## gemcgrew (May 29, 2016)

jbogg said:


> On a related note I was hoping someone could give their thoughts on John Ortbergs theory that Faith actually requires Doubt.  His example is the equation 2 + 2 = 4.  We know with absolute certainty that this is true, since it can be proven.  No faith required.  His contention is that there must be a certain amount of doubt present for faith to be required.
> 
> I would imagine many of us have days when our faith can be tested.  I certainly do.  Many days I find myself hoping there is a God.  It is rare for me when I feel that certainty.  I take comfort in Ortbergs message.  Not only is having doubts OK, but it is required.
> 
> Sorry if I sidetracked this thread, but I hoped this was close enough to being on topic to ask the question.


Then the requirement prevents us from casting the mountain into the sea.

"For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith."


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## welderguy (May 29, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> She may very well have been the only one there that had faith. In the next example I will use the scripture actually says the Spirit of the Lord was present to heal all that were gathered , yet only one man was healed.
> 
> What do you think?



RH,
Is it your belief that everyone has access to this kind of faith,but some choose not to have it?


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## gordon 2 (May 29, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> She may very well have been the only one there that had faith. In the next example I will use the scripture actually says the Spirit of the Lord was present to heal all that were gathered , yet only one man was healed.
> 
> What do you think?



I wait for your quote on this. But yes this would confirm why Peter said that the reason how an infirm individual had been healed which Peter had ministered to. Peter said it is because of Jesus. 

He did not say it was because of the individual's faith, but rather because of God.

What seems clear to me in the miracles of Jesus is that the people who benefited seemed to have gone out of the usual way to see, hear or touch Jesus. One  short fellow ( a person of questionable character) went up a tree out of curiousity  and after meeting Jesus ( having Jesus in his home) he was changed and one assumes had much faith post this meeting and not before.

Jesus often said he came to save sinners when asked why he would hang out with characters like Zack the tax collector. Bart went out of his way to make sure Jesus heard him. The lady with the issue went out of her way to not only see Jesus but to touch his coat. Some dudes went out of their way to bust a roof to lower an invalid in front of Jesus-- which sins were cast away and his health restored. I'm not certain this person had great faith, although maybe his friends did.

So I wait for you example.

Also if you have been to a "healing church" where the Holy Spirit is for a time present and noticed that only some differing groups of the community are ministered to and each on different occasions? For example He might minister with the Fragrance of Sharon and yet out of two hundred only seven stand to the call. Yet these people for months had never been witnessed to by any other form of the  healing-witness ministry of the Holy Spirit?


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## RH Clark (May 29, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> Then the requirement prevents us from casting the mountain into the sea.
> 
> "For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith."



Thank you so much my friend! What a wonderful bible example of a key to bible faith! "shall not doubt in his heart" is vital to understanding faith. Faith is two places in a man. It is in his heart and in his mouth Rom.10:9. 

Faith must be cultivated in the heart until it grows and produces. Jesus outlined this perfectly in the parable of "The sower sows the Word" found in Mark 4. Jesus explains what condition a heart must be in to receive the seed of the word and what to guard against so that the word will grow there. Once the word has been brought to fruit in the heart, then the mouth speaks from the abundance of the heart. The woman with the issue of Blood could not help but "say unto the mountain" because of the abundance in her heart.


The 2+2=4  I what I call natural faith. It is what we know from experience. It is nothing like bible faith. Let's look at the definition of bible faith again. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. The evidence of things not seen is crucial to this bible faith. While it seems a contradiction doubt is not present in the evidence of things not seen.

Faith is a force derived from God's Word which transcends doubt and replaces it with heart evidence based solely on God's Word, for the thing not seen.

In the 2+2=4 example it is not bible faith because it has been seen so many times. Over and over it has always been the same and the mind knows it. It has become commonplace natural faith. Natural because it is something that we work with continually in this natural world. To sit in a chair and expect it to hold you up is the same sort of natural faith. It has always been and it's expected to always be.

Now Bible faith works similarly but it works from the spiritual unseen side. When God's word becomes just as real and true in your heart as the 2+2=4 equation. Then you have reached bible faith. It is real because God said it, and because you have allowed it to grow in the heart, guarding against the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things. That Word is now more real than the 2+2=4 ,and it will move you to corresponding action, just as it did with the woman with the issue of blood.


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## RH Clark (May 29, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> I wait for your quote on this. But yes this would confirm why Peter said that the reason how an infirm individual had been healed which Peter had ministered to. Peter said it is because of Jesus.
> 
> He did not say it was because of the individual's faith, but rather because of God.



If you are talking about the lame man Peter and John healed in the temple, I do not believe that the exclusion of anyone saying he had faith necessarily means he did not. There are many many examples of Jesus telling people their faith made them whole. In the story of the lame man we see in verse 4 that Peter and John fixed their eyes on him. Perhaps they saw faith in this man, Perhaps the Holy Spirit told them this man had faith. I don't know. I only have the bible examples of the faith connection.

It is always God who heals, always. We cannot say a man heals himself because of faith. Yet we cannot blame God if healing isn't instant. There are both miracles of healing in which healing is instant and there is the process of faith where faith grows in the heart as Jesus outlined in Mark 4 and produces it's harvest. Both require faith, yet a miracle is a specific gift of the Holy Spirit, as the Spirit wills. In this I do not want to imply that sometimes God wills healing and sometimes he does not. I do not believe that to be the case at all, and I believe the scriptures prove it out. A Miracle may well be the speeding up of the process of faith into an instant. I'm not sure exactly how it works, for that matter I'm not sure,"exactly" how faith works. I can only give you bible examples of what faith is and what faith isn't, and share with you what I believe God is teaching and has taught me about faith, in the hope that it will both encourage your faith and expel some wrong thinking at the same time.


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## RH Clark (May 29, 2016)

jbogg said:


> On a related note I was hoping someone could give their thoughts on John Ortbergs theory that Faith actually requires Doubt.  His example is the equation 2 + 2 = 4.  We know with absolute certainty that this is true, since it can be proven.  No faith required.  His contention is that there must be a certain amount of doubt present for faith to be required.
> 
> I would imagine many of us have days when our faith can be tested.  I certainly do.  Many days I find myself hoping there is a God.  It is rare for me when I feel that certainty.  I take comfort in Ortbergs message.  Not only is having doubts OK, but it is required.
> 
> Sorry if I sidetracked this thread, but I hoped this was close enough to being on topic to ask the question.





You are fine with the question my friend. I think it is only a natural thing to have some unbelief. We live and operate in this natural world where the "cares of this world" from Mark4 is just everything in our natural existence. We just have to give the proper attention to the word so that it isn't choked out by our natural cares and existence. Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit that can and will transcend our natural. Let's be like the man from Mark9:24,"Lord I believe, help my unbelief!"

In these situations where unbelief tries to take over, do not let it become a stronghold in your mind. Do not give a voice to your doubt, only say what God has said about the situation and in so doing you are weeding that garden of the heart. You can only control what you think to the extent that you can control what you see and hear, so continue to use every means to load your heart with God's word and things that build faith rather than those things which choke it out. This is why it is so vital to get the word every day, study the word, listen to the word. It has to become stronger than any contradictory force of the world.


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## gordon 2 (May 29, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> If you are talking about the lame man Peter and John healed in the temple, I do not believe that the exclusion of anyone saying he had faith necessarily means he did not. There are many many examples of Jesus telling people their faith made them whole. In the story of the lame man we see in verse 4 that Peter and John fixed their eyes on him. Perhaps they saw faith in this man, Perhaps the Holy Spirit told them this man had faith. I don't know. I only have the bible examples of the faith connection.
> 
> It is always God who heals, always. We cannot say a man heals himself because of faith. Yet we cannot blame God if healing isn't instant. There are both miracles of healing in which healing is instant and there is the process of faith where faith grows in the heart as Jesus outlined in Mark 4 and produces it's harvest. Both require faith, yet a miracle is a specific gift of the Holy Spirit, as the Spirit wills. In this I do not want to imply that sometimes God wills healing and sometimes he does not. I do not believe that to be the case at all, and I believe the scriptures prove it out. A Miracle may well be the speeding up of the process of faith into an instant. I'm not sure exactly how it works, for that matter I'm not sure,"exactly" how faith works. I can only give you bible examples of what faith is and what faith isn't, and share with you what I believe God is teaching and has taught me about faith, in the hope that it will both encourage your faith and expel some wrong thinking at the same time.



Well you might be correct, I might entertain notions regards faith, prayer and healing and what Jesus said and means, so I wait for what you claim scripture says. For example, I have always thought from my direct spiritual experiences with the ministry of Jesus or the Holy Spirit regards healing that He  is always ready to give to those he calls the special graces they individually require. All needs are not the same. An emotional invalid might need to know that he/she is a child of God ( especially one that was an aldult too soon) before they get out of a wheel chair. And yet another might need to know the Kingdom before they recover from chronic arthritis. And yet others seem to be simply given grace of physical healing for no other reason but the testimony of it--to the profound purposes of God's love which are often difficult to apprehend.


For me personally the greatest "healing" was when Jesus gave physical evidence of his presence --- which I never expected, and did not know existed, or they mirrored the experiences of the first disciples,  and I could not have dreamed to asked for.


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## jbogg (May 29, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> You are fine with the question my friend. I think it is only a natural thing to have some unbelief. We live and operate in this natural world where the "cares of this world" from Mark4 is just everything in our natural existence. We just have to give the proper attention to the word so that it isn't choked out by our natural cares and existence. Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit that can and will transcend our natural. Let's be like the man from Mark9:24,"Lord I believe, help my unbelief!"
> 
> In these situations where unbelief tries to take over, do not let it become a stronghold in your mind. Do not give a voice to your doubt, only say what God has said about the situation and in so doing you are weeding that garden of the heart. You can only control what you think to the extent that you can control what you see and hear, so continue to use every means to load your heart with God's word and things that build faith rather than those things which choke it out. This is why it is so vital to get the word every day, study the word, listen to the word. It has to become stronger than any contradictory force of the world.



 Thank you RH. I appreciate your thoughtful response.


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## welderguy (May 29, 2016)

welderguy said:


> RH,
> Is it your belief that everyone has access to this kind of faith,but some choose not to have it?



I don't really blame you for ignoring this one.


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## jbogg (May 29, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> That's an interesting concept. I was once like that , but my days of doubt are long gone. Too many experiences with God to doubt anymore. I know God is, and I know He is the God of the Bible . I'm just trying to know Him better.



 I hope that one day I can say my days of doubt are long gone as well. I am weak. I struggle. I am a believer, but some days it seems I am more of a "hoper".


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## jbogg (May 29, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> Then the requirement prevents us from casting the mountain into the sea.
> 
> "For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith."



Thank you for your response.


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## RH Clark (May 29, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I don't really blame you for ignoring this one.



I'm sorry my friend. I was in a hurry before church this morning I  actually just skimmed over it somehow without even seeing it. I understand your response though, because it seems that we didn't get off on the best footing here. I'm sorry for that and I will try to be a better friend and fellow member of the body of Christ to you in the future.


Your question was; is it my belief that everyone has access to this kind of faith, but some choose not to have it?
 I believe that faith comes from hearing and hearing by the Word of God Rom.10:17. So in this fashion yes, everyone has access, whether that word come from the scriptures, or in the case of Mary from an angel of God, or from a minister of God's word.

I see Jesus chastising people for their lack of faith and questioning if he will find faith when he returns, so I do not see this faith as something that is given or withheld by God. Why would Jesus chastise a lack of faith if he was withholding it to begin with? 

I also see however from 1Cor.12:9 that faith is a gift of the Spirit, so I see this gift as a special faith that can be added to your faith which comes from hearing. I have heard people describe this special gift of faith going into manifestation during the working of miracles, or perhaps raising the dead. They have said that it was as if the Spirit of God added his faith to theirs where there was no opportunity for doubt.


"but some choose not to have it" I don't think it is so much a choice not to have faith as it is letting doubt overcome faith, even when you think you are in faith. One of my first experiences was with a friend dying from cancer. I tried ministering to him and he was saved but he did die. I asked God about it and he told me that my friend has always put his healing sometime into the future. Hid comments to me were always "I believe God is going to heal me." The fact is that Jesus did everything necessary for healing on the cross 1 Pet.2:24 and Isaiah 53:4. My friend could never bring his healing into the "now". I believe that people also allow the cares of this world ,lust of other things and the deceitfulness of riches choke out the word sown into their heart so that it doesn't produce the harvest of faith necessary to receive the promise as outlined in Mark 4.


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## gemcgrew (May 30, 2016)

jbogg said:


> Thank you for your response.


You are welcome. I am not familiar with John Ortberg's theory. I would agree with him if he is speaking about the flesh, that faith and doubt reside together. Any faith that is brought about by the flesh "profiteth nothing".


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## Israel (May 30, 2016)

jbogg said:


> I hope that one day I can say my days of doubt are long gone as well. I am weak. I struggle. I am a believer, but some days it seems I am more of a "hoper".



That may not be the best thing on which to place your hope.


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## welderguy (May 30, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> I'm sorry my friend. I was in a hurry before church this morning I  actually just skimmed over it somehow without even seeing it. I understand your response though, because it seems that we didn't get off on the best footing here. I'm sorry for that and I will try to be a better friend and fellow member of the body of Christ to you in the future.
> 
> 
> Your question was; is it my belief that everyone has access to this kind of faith, but some choose not to have it?
> ...



I think you'd be hard pressed to find where Jesus chastised for lack of faith.We know that God chastens every son that He receiveth.But we also know that every person who is born of God has faith abiding in him.So your statement really contradicts itself.

Hebrews 12:6
" For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth."

1 John 5:4
" For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith."


In fact,there are those whom God actually blinds for the purpose of NOT saving:

John 12:40
" He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."


If you believe God offers faith to everyone and it's up to the individual to choose it or not,then you are working against God's written will many times.

Jesus told Nicodemas,"Ye must be born again."


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## gordon 2 (May 30, 2016)

"The fact is that Jesus did everything necessary for healing on the cross 1 Pet.2:24 and Isaiah 53:4." Quote RH Clark

1 Peter 2:24King James Version (KJV)

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Isaiah 53:4

Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted.
--------------------------------------------


Do you believe that these two verses refer to the pain and suffering of physical illness in lieu of spiritual pain and suffering brought about from a brutish world of injustices?

If you believe they mean physical suffering and pain, why?


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## RH Clark (May 30, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> "The fact is that Jesus did everything necessary for healing on the cross 1 Pet.2:24 and Isaiah 53:4." Quote RH Clark
> 
> 1 Peter 2:24King James Version (KJV)
> 
> ...




Yes, I know they are referring to physical sickness, pain and disease. In the first place no one needs spiritual healing. A person is not spiritually sick without Jesus, they are spiritually dead, which is why that person needs to be born again, rather than healed.

Secondly the scriptures themselves bear this out. In Isaiah pain and suffering are actually the words for infirmities and sickness. The translators used the correct words when referring to this scripture in Matt.8:16-17. Here in Matthew the scripture in Isaiah is referred to proving that it is speaking of sickness.

Matthew 8:16-17King James Version (KJV)
16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:

17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.


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## RH Clark (May 30, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I think you'd be hard pressed to find where Jesus chastised for lack of faith.We know that God chastens every son that He receiveth.But we also know that every person who is born of God has faith abiding in him.So your statement really contradicts itself.
> 
> Hebrews 12:6
> " For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth."
> ...



"Oh, ye of little faith" "Where is your faith" Have you never read these statements by Jesus in the scriptures?

Also when you quote scripture don't just cut it short at the verses which support your doctrine. Go on and quote the next two verses of scripture and you will see that Isaiah spoke these words because of the glory he saw in God but had God been working against his people then none could have believed yet many did including the chief rulers.

John 12:41-42King James Version (KJV)

41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:


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## gordon 2 (May 30, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Yes, I know they are referring to physical sickness, pain and disease. In the first place no one needs spiritual healing. A person is not spiritually sick without Jesus, they are spiritually dead, which is why that person needs to be born again, rather than healed.
> 
> Secondly the scriptures themselves bear this out. In Isaiah pain and suffering are actually the words for infirmities and sickness. The translators used the correct words when referring to this scripture in Matt.8:16-17. Here in Matthew the scripture in Isaiah is referred to proving that it is speaking of sickness.
> 
> ...



I see where you get it now. I was always under the impression that Isaiah's issues with the Hebrews ( Jews) were not so much their physical infirmities, but rather their up and down spirituality as per justice and charity. ( Also I find it difficult to say that the Jews in the prophet's days or even today are spiritually dead. But that is for another tread perhaps.)

So now since I know where your belief comes from, I thank you for being patient and attentive to my questions. Good tread.


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## gordon 2 (May 30, 2016)

Israel said:


> That may not be the best thing on which to place your hope.



 Our brother might  like to read this a couple of times. It is but a point of view, but is honestly articulated. It speaks of how a man was saved by the preached word and yet made to doubt his salvation in the very church he was saved in.

"Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth."


http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False Doctrines/methodist_sinlessness.htm


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## RH Clark (May 30, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> I see where you get it now. I was always under the impression that Isaiah's issues with the Hebrews ( Jews) were not so much their physical infirmities, but rather their up and down spirituality as per justice and charity. ( Also I find it difficult to say that the Jews in the prophet's days or even today are spiritually dead. But that is for another tread perhaps.)
> 
> So now since I know where your belief comes from, I thank you for being patient and attentive to my questions. Good tread.



Whether you agree with me or not, I do appreciate your attitude. If nothing else we should all be able to look at scripture and share with each other what we see in it. No one has all revelation or complete knowledge. We should all work together as a healthy body, not saying to any part or member,"I have no need of you."


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## RH Clark (May 30, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> I see where you get it now. I was always under the impression that Isaiah's issues with the Hebrews ( Jews) were not so much their physical infirmities, but rather their up and down spirituality as per justice and charity. ( Also I find it difficult to say that the Jews in the prophet's days or even today are spiritually dead. But that is for another tread perhaps.)
> 
> So now since I know where your belief comes from, I thank you for being patient and attentive to my questions. Good tread.



You could say that about Isaiah and I believe it would be mostly true yet I believe in those particular passages he was speaking more specifically. When you study out the word "saved" often used in scripture, it speaks to the complete man, not just spiritually but of a wholeness that encompasses spirit, soul, and body.

Yes, another thread concerning the condition of a lost person, but do consider how the scripture calls us "dead in our sin."


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## Israel (May 30, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> Our brother might  like to read this a couple of times. It is but a point of view, but is honestly articulated. It speaks of how a man was saved by the preached word and yet made to doubt his salvation in the very church he was saved in.
> 
> "Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth."
> 
> ...


Ahhh, yes..."he who has this hope in him, purifies himself even as He is pure" And all preceding that line withall in the seeing Him...as He is.


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## RH Clark (May 30, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> Our brother might  like to read this a couple of times. It is but a point of view, but is honestly articulated. It speaks of how a man was saved by the preached word and yet made to doubt his salvation in the very church he was saved in.
> 
> "Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth."
> 
> ...



Thank you, I enjoyed that link very much and I completely agree with it. If you somehow feel that I can't see these truths because of my posts here then I feel that you have mistaken somewhere, something that I have said.


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## gordon 2 (May 30, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Thank you, I enjoyed that link very much and I completely agree with it. If you somehow feel that I can't see these truths because of my posts here then I feel that you have mistaken somewhere, something that I have said.




RH,

The brother I was referring to was Jbogg.


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## welderguy (May 30, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> "Oh, ye of little faith" "Where is your faith" Have you never read these statements by Jesus in the scriptures?



He is speaking to born again people who have the gift of  faith but are not exercising it. 



RH Clark said:


> Also when you quote scripture don't just cut it short at the verses which support your doctrine. Go on and quote the next two verses of scripture and you will see that Isaiah spoke these words because of the glory he saw in God but had God been working against his people then none could have believed yet many did including the chief rulers.
> 
> John 12:41-42King James Version (KJV)
> 
> ...



There are two groups of people being distinguished here.Some that "could not believe"(vs 39),and some among the chief rulers that " believed on him"(vs 42).


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## hobbs27 (May 31, 2016)

I saw this today, not sure of author, but I agree.
 " Faith is seeing light with your heart when all your eyes see is darkness"


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## RH Clark (May 31, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> I saw this today, not sure of author, but I agree.
> " Faith is seeing light with your heart when all your eyes see is darkness"



That's a good one Hobbs!


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## RH Clark (May 31, 2016)

welderguy said:


> He is speaking to born again people who have the gift of  faith but are not exercising it.
> 
> 
> 
> There are two groups of people being distinguished here.Some that "could not believe"(vs 39),and some among the chief rulers that " believed on him"(vs 42).




My brother, I really wish you weren't so indoctrinated by your particular denomination or church or whatever. The way you are looking at it makes God the biggest respecter of persons ever, yet the scriptures say that he is not.

You have God keeping people from being saved and them holding them accountable for it. Is it really your belief that if God doesn't like you or just didn't choose you, then you are just bleeped? Do you really see God as preventing people from salvation? That's just about as messed up as I can imagine.


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## welderguy (May 31, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> My brother, I really wish you weren't so indoctrinated by your particular denomination or church or whatever. The way you are looking at it makes God the biggest respecter of persons ever, yet the scriptures say that he is not.
> 
> You have God keeping people from being saved and them holding them accountable for it. Is it really your belief that if God doesn't like you or just didn't choose you, then you are just bleeped? Do you really see God as preventing people from salvation? That's just about as messed up as I can imagine.



No sir. 
What's messed up is thinking God loves everyone but is willing to let some spend eternity in darkness and separation and destruction.
Either you don't understand God's infinite love for His people or you don't believe in he11.
Do you agree there's going to be people that spend eternity in he11?
If so,how can you say in the next breath that God loved those that He condemns to he11?That's what's messed up.
You may say "well He gave them a choice".That still would not explain how He could suddenly stop loving someone that He supposedly "so loved".
You have a very misconstrued idea of how His love works.


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## RH Clark (May 31, 2016)

welderguy said:


> No sir.
> What's messed up is thinking God loves everyone but is willing to let some spend eternity in darkness and separation and destruction.
> Either you don't understand God's infinite love for His people or you don't believe in he11.
> Do you agree there's going to be people that spend eternity in he11?
> ...



There is no use arguing about it. I think you are as wrong as can be and you think the same of me. I think God loves everyone and you think he loves some and hates others. Let's just stop this and let God decide who is right in the end.


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## welderguy (May 31, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> There is no use arguing about it. I think you are as wrong as can be and you think the same of me. I think God loves everyone and you think he loves some and hates others. Let's just stop this and let God decide who is right in the end.



That's fine except you are giving people false hope and representing God's love in error.You also make the promises,that are reserved exclusively for God's children,something that can be broken.That's no promise at all.God is not slack concerning His promises.


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## RH Clark (May 31, 2016)

welderguy said:


> That's fine except you are giving people false hope and representing God's love in error.You also make the promises,that are reserved exclusively for God's children,something that can be broken.That's no promise at all.God is not slack concerning His promises.



Yes, that 's fine but you are denying hope to anyone. there is no hope when you tell someone they can't be saved because God hates them, and that is exactly what you are doing.

I honestly don't want to talk to you about it anymore because the more I hear the angrier I get.


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## welderguy (May 31, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Yes, that 's fine but you are denying hope to anyone. there is no hope when you tell someone they can't be saved because God hates them, and that is exactly what you are doing.
> 
> I honestly don't want to talk to you about it anymore because the more I hear the angrier I get.



I'm not denying hope to anyone,and I'm certainly not telling anyone that God hates them.Because I can't judge who are God's children and who are not.
I always say if a man is still breathing,there's still hope that the Holy Spirit will quicken him and reveal Himself to him.Only God knows.


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## welderguy (May 31, 2016)

RH,
Take a look at 1 Pet.2:8

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Why do you suppose God would "appoint" some people to stumble at the word and take offence to Jesus?


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## RH Clark (May 31, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I'm not denying hope to anyone,and I'm certainly not telling anyone that God hates them.Because I can't judge who are God's children and who are not.
> I always say if a man is still breathing,there's still hope that the Holy Spirit will quicken him and reveal Himself to him.Only God knows.



No, you aren't telling anyone that God hates them, just that he might, and if you are one of the ones God hates, then you are out of luck bud.

Listen I would rather be wrong and give people a chance for salvation than be wrong in telling them that they may not have any chance. If I am wrong then it has changed nothing. If you are wrong then you have discouraged a soul seeking God.

Honestly, if you want to keep discussing this then please start another thread. I'm not going to answer another question off track.


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## welderguy (May 31, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> No, you aren't telling anyone that God hates them, just that he might, and if you are one of the ones God hates, then you are out of luck bud.



By this statement,you seem to be saying that God will not justly send anyone to he11.



RH Clark said:


> Listen I would rather be wrong and give people a chance for salvation than be wrong in telling them that they may not have any chance. If I am wrong then it has changed nothing. If you are wrong then you have discouraged a soul seeking God.



I would rather just tell them what God's truth is,instead of trying to sugarcoat it with what carnal man wants to hear.
Besides,my words cannot save them or condemn them.It is the Word that saves,and that by the Holy Spirit.You know that.


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## jbogg (May 31, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> Our brother might  like to read this a couple of times. It is but a point of view, but is honestly articulated. It speaks of how a man was saved by the preached word and yet made to doubt his salvation in the very church he was saved in.
> 
> "Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth."
> 
> ...



Thanks for the reading recommendation RH.  The preacher is quoted in the final paragraph to say "that no child of God ever did feel any conflict within",  which says to me that since I am conflicted some days in terms of my faith then I must not be a true child of God.  This attitude by some of the faithful can unfortunately turn away others with "less" faith from God's invitation.  

The fact that Christ had a momentary crisis of faith while on the cross gives me hope that I too am allowed times of weakness without forfeiting my status as one of God's children.  I would guess that most men and women in their heart of hearts experience a point at some time of their lives when doubt creeps in.  For if this can happen to Jesus then it can certainly occur with the rest of us.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 1, 2016)

welderguy said:


> By this statement,you seem to be saying that God will not justly send anyone to he11.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A man that knows that, would never entertain the notion of luck or chance... in the matter of God's salvation.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 1, 2016)

jbogg said:


> Thanks for the reading recommendation RH.  The preacher is quoted in the final paragraph to say "that no child of God ever did feel any conflict within",  which says to me that since I am conflicted some days in terms of my faith then I must not be a true child of God.  This attitude by some of the faithful can unfortunately turn away others with "less" faith from God's invitation.
> 
> The fact that Christ had a momentary crisis of faith while on the cross gives me hope that I too am allowed times of weakness without forfeiting my status as one of God's children.  I would guess that most men and women in their heart of hearts experience a point at some time of their lives when doubt creeps in.  For if this can happen to Jesus then it can certainly occur with the rest of us.


But it never happened to Jesus.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 1, 2016)

Did it ever happen to Paul?


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## welderguy (Jun 1, 2016)

RH,
Although I have opposed your view of limited atonement,I have agreed with many of your other points and have been greatly blessed by them.You have a tremendous zeal that is contagious.In that way,you remind me alot of Peter in his early discipleship.Peter,many times thought he was helping the Lord's cause,only to hear sharp rebuke instead.One time the Father Himself thundered from heaven at the transfiguration.
Jesus made it clear to Peter in the garden that He did not need Peter's help; that He must accomplish His purpose alone.And He did just that.The work of redemption is finished,without any assistance of man,only resistance.
Anyway,FWIW,I don't want you to be discouraged or angry,but be encouraged and rest in the finished work of Christ.


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## jbogg (Jun 1, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> But it never happened to Jesus.



After further consideration I agree that "crisis of Faith" may not be the best choice of words to describe Jesus' conflict on the cross.  That said, how would you explain his questioning of God's will?


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## gordon 2 (Jun 1, 2016)

jbogg said:


> After further consideration I agree that "crisis of Faith" may not be the best choice of words to describe Jesus' conflict on the cross.  That said, how would you explain his questioning of God's will?



I think that many opinions are to be had on this. But given that our Lord was taking on the sins of the world, I personally can see that He easily could have said, " How can you do this to me.", not unlike many people who say, "How can God allow this."

Also, being a nurse, physical stress, pain and suffering have an impact on the brain, logic and emotion andmake people do and say the strangest things--things they would never say or do on a "normal day"...

So brother Jbogg your point might just be as valid as any other...


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## RH Clark (Jun 1, 2016)

jbogg said:


> Thanks for the reading recommendation RH.  The preacher is quoted in the final paragraph to say "that no child of God ever did feel any conflict within",  which says to me that since I am conflicted some days in terms of my faith then I must not be a true child of God.  This attitude by some of the faithful can unfortunately turn away others with "less" faith from God's invitation.
> 
> The fact that Christ had a momentary crisis of faith while on the cross gives me hope that I too am allowed times of weakness without forfeiting my status as one of God's children.  I would guess that most men and women in their heart of hearts experience a point at some time of their lives when doubt creeps in.  For if this can happen to Jesus then it can certainly occur with the rest of us.



Hey brother, go back and read the article again. The author only referred to a preacher he had heard saying that "no child of God ever did feel any conflict within." The author did not agree with that preacher and said that he seldom attended such churches ever again. I agree with both you and the author.

We live in the world, and in this world there will always be the struggle of faith. There will always be the enemy Satan with his fiery darts thrown in whispers to your mind trying to get you to consider everything and anything except God's word.

On the cross Jesus cried out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"  To me this is such an important scripture because it proves to me how much God loves me. Just think about it a bit. Jesus had always called God, Father, but now he was not Father, but God. Now there was not the relationship of Father and son, for God had forsaken Jesus.

Isaiah 53:4-5King James Version (KJV)
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.


10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

The above scripture from Isaiah says it all. God did this to Jesus on my behalf, on your behalf. Jesus took our punishment, and part of that punishment was God turning his back on his beloved. 

I prayed for years about this particular part. I knew Jesus suffered and died for me ,in my place, but I couldn't understand why God had to forsake Jesus. I thought it must have something to do with the sin that Jesus took to himself, on our behalf, and God not looking on sin, but I was wrong. God finally revealed to me that Jesus is our substitute in every way. When God forsook Jesus it was so that he could say to us, " I will never leave you nor forsake you!" Jesus took that destruction of the Father and Son relationship on the cross just as he took sin. That is incredibly encouraging to me, as I walk this walk and fight the good fight of faith, knowing that God will not leave me, even in my doubt and sin.


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## jbogg (Jun 1, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Hey brother, go back and read the article again. The author only referred to a preacher he had heard saying that "no child of God ever did feel any conflict within." The author did not agree with that preacher and said that he seldom attended such churches ever again. I agree with both you and the author.
> 
> We live in the world, and in this world there will always be the struggle of faith. There will always be the enemy Satan with his fiery darts thrown in whispers to your mind trying to get you to consider everything and anything except God's word.
> 
> ...



I have never heard that scripture explained so clearly. Thank you RH!  My faith walk has been a journey, with some climbs much steeper than others.  I have a long way to go, but very thankful for people like yourself.


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## RH Clark (Jun 1, 2016)

jbogg said:


> I have never heard that scripture explained so clearly. Thank you RH!  My faith walk has been a journey, with some climbs much steeper than others.  I have a long way to go, but very thankful for people like yourself.



Thank you for the kind words but we are all equal in the Body of Christ. Some are strong where others are weak but everyone has both strengths and weaknesses. That's why we so desperately need each other.

When you say,"I have a long way to go.", it's fine to have humility but I also want you to know that if you are born again, you stand perfect before God. Don't ever see yourself as less in God's eyes. God only looks at us as "in Christ." In Christ is our only hope, yet in him we stand perfect before God.

That doesn't mean that we are walking a perfect sinless life in this world, but the more we identify with our new born again nature, the better our walk will be. I might liken it to the way a financially struggling man would act and walk differently than a man who had plenty of money. You will just look at things differently and act differently the more you see yourself as God's perfect son. It's part of the Armor of God from Eph.6:10-18. That helmet of salvation, and breastplate of righteousness, knowing that God accepts you and sees you "as righteous in Christ" is a vital defense against those fiery darts of doubt.


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## welderguy (Jun 1, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Thank you for the kind words but we are all equal in the Body of Christ. Some are strong where others are weak but everyone has both strengths and weaknesses. That's why we so desperately need each other.
> 
> When you say,"I have a long way to go.", it's fine to have humility but I also want you to know that if you are born again, you stand perfect before God. Don't ever see yourself as less in God's eyes. God only looks at us as "in Christ." In Christ is our only hope, yet in him we stand perfect before God.
> 
> That doesn't mean that we are walking a perfect sinless life in this world, but the more we identify with our new born again nature, the better our walk will be. I might liken it to the way a financially struggling man would act and walk differently than a man who had plenty of money. You will just look at things differently and act differently the more you see yourself as God's perfect son. It's part of the Armor of God from Eph.6:10-18. That helmet of salvation, and breastplate of righteousness, knowing that God accepts you and sees you "as righteous in Christ" is a vital defense against those fiery darts of doubt.



Good post!


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## gemcgrew (Jun 2, 2016)

jbogg said:


> After further consideration I agree that "crisis of Faith" may not be the best choice of words to describe Jesus' conflict on the cross.  That said, how would you explain his questioning of God's will?


It had been prophesied and he fulfilled it. 

Also, remember that everything Jesus said was according to the Father. This remained true even in a separation.


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## Israel (Jun 5, 2016)

Faith apprehends what cannot be apprehended apart from it. Moves a man in ways so strange to himself he knows it cannot be him. Makes of a thing once seen so huge and impossible as to be seen as nothing at all. 
And makes of  a _thing_ once not seen, all there is to see.


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## welderguy (Jun 5, 2016)

Israel said:


> Faith apprehends what cannot be apprehended apart from it. Moves a man in ways so strange to himself he knows it cannot be him. Makes of a thing once seen so huge and impossible as to be seen as nothing at all.
> And makes of  a _thing_ once not seen, all there is to see.



Truth^^


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## RH Clark (Jun 5, 2016)

Israel said:


> Faith apprehends what cannot be apprehended apart from it. Moves a man in ways so strange to himself he knows it cannot be him. Makes of a thing once seen so huge and impossible as to be seen as nothing at all.
> And makes of  a _thing_ once not seen, all there is to see.



I like that definition but I might say that it will move a man in ways that once seemed strange, but now seem the only correct choice.


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## Israel (Jun 5, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> I like that definition but I might say that it will move a man in ways that once seemed strange, but now seem the only correct choice.


Could be I'm only just beginning to become a stranger to myself. But I sure do welcome the distance. And that, in some ways, is strange. Hard for a man like me to imagine anyone ever loving themselves more. Maybe impossible, even. 

Maybe wrestling Paul for his title.
No, not "Apostle to the Gentiles"
That other one.


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## RH Clark (Jun 5, 2016)

Israel said:


> Could be I'm only just beginning to become a stranger to myself. But I sure do welcome the distance. And that, in some ways, is strange. Hard for a man like me to imagine anyone ever loving themselves more. Maybe impossible, even.
> 
> Maybe wrestling Paul for his title.
> No, not "Apostle to the Gentiles"
> That other one.



I think I know what you mean but isn't that the whole point? I mean isn't a born again man a new creation. Old things have passed away, all things have become new and all things are of God?

I see way too many Christians who are just trying to improve on the old dead man rather than letting him die, be buried once with Christ, and recognizing the new man risen with Christ.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 5, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> I think I know what you mean but isn't that the whole point? I mean isn't a born again man a new creation. Old things have passed away, all things have become new and all things are of God?
> 
> I see way too many Christians who are just trying to improve on the old dead man rather than letting him die, be buried once with Christ, and recognizing the new man risen with Christ.



I think 25% of I (s) is good. ( Also I tend to believe lots of denominations spend to much time in the Old Testament and in the process make a cobweb for themselves... as victims. Also, too many spent too much time on Revelations and over think it. Both these end up in the 75%.)


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## Israel (Jun 5, 2016)

rh clark said:


> i think i know what you mean but isn't that the whole point? I mean isn't a born again man a new creation. Old things have passed away, all things have become new and all things are of god?
> 
> I see way too many christians who are just trying to improve on the old dead man rather than letting him die, be buried once with christ, and recognizing the new man risen with christ.



ok.


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## spwatz (Jun 23, 2016)

Faith is believing God AND doing what He says.

Heb 11:30, By faith the walls of Jericho fell down AFTER they had been encircled for seven days. 

Did they sit on a rock and believe the walls would come down or did they obey?

Their obedience is called faith.

Same with Noah.

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

So, by faith Noah prepared an ark for the saving of his household.

Did Noah sit around and wait for the flood or did he do what God said?

Noah was saved by faith because he did what God told him.

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.  27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 

You are sons of God how?  Through faith.  Why?  You were baptized into Christ and have put on Christ.  - In other words, you did what God said.

You cannot be saved through faith if you do not obey God's commands any more than the walls falling by faith without being marched around or Noah being saved by faith without building an ark.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?  22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?  23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”And he was called the friend of God.  24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

When was the scripture fulfilled?  When he only believed or when he obeyed?  James clearly indicates it was when he obeyed.

So, biblical faith is believing God and doing what He says.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 23, 2016)

What does God say for us to do?


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## RH Clark (Jun 23, 2016)

spwatz said:


> Faith is believing God AND doing what He says.
> 
> Heb 11:30, By faith the walls of Jericho fell down AFTER they had been encircled for seven days.
> 
> ...



I agree with you to an extent but I think we have to be careful here that we don't put the emphasis on the works. I don't think you can separate faith and works but you have to get them in the correct order. While faith without works is dead, works without faith is nothing but filthy rags. The correct order is faith first followed by works.A true and living faith will produce works just like a true and living branch will produce fruit. If there is no fruit then somewhere the connection to the vive has been severed. 

On the other hand many people rely on works out of nothing more than tradition and their moral upbringing. They honestly think they will be received by God because of their lifestyle and good works. This is a terrible danger because these have become lukewarm. They are comfortable in themselves. They have neither the hot burning desire for God, to know him, nor the cold rejection for all things God. They are the hardest to reach because they have confidence in themselves.


So in conclusion, yes true living faith will move us to works. Works is just the natural result of faith. The scripture however says that we are saved by grace through faith. There is no grace+faith+works= salvation. To come to that conclusion is to rely on flesh as a part of salvation and to do that only focuses your trust on yourself.  James just shows us that simple belief is not faith. Faith is when you trust and rely on God so much so that it changes everything in your life. It moves you and guides all your decisions. James tells us that even the devils believe and he shows us the difference between simple belief and true living faith.


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## spwatz (Jun 28, 2016)

We are saved by grace through faith.

Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord - Gen 6:8
He received instructions on building the ark Gen 6:14-16
Noah did ALL that God commanded him Gen 6:22

Noah was saved by grace through faith - Heb 11:7

God's grace provides us instructions - Titus 2:11-12
We obey those instructions if we want to be saved- Heb 5:9
We become children of God through faith when we obey (Gal 3:26-27)

Nothing we can do will earn our salvation.  We earn 0% of our salvation.

Some sincere, yet very misguided people think that anything we "do" is a work and therefore not necessary for salvation.

Confession is something we must do.  It requires effort and work.  Maybe it doesn't require much effort, but it does require effort and therefore is work.  It is not a meritorious work.  There is nothing virtuous about words.

Jesus said that MANY sincere people who "call" him Lord will be lost but we MUST DO the will of the Father - Matt 7:21-23

Many people try to equate baptism with a work.  There is nothing virtuous about being dipped in the water.  The scripture says that God is the one working at baptism, not man - Col 2:12

Baptism puts one INTO Christ.  You cannot find in the scripture any other way to get INTO Christ (Rom 6:3-4, Gal 3:26-27).

We are children of God by faith in Christ Jesus because we have been baptized into Christ and put on Christ - Gal 3:26-27 

Was Noah saved by water or saved by faith.  I Pet 3:20 says through water and Heb 11:7 says by faith.

Are we saved by water or saved by faith? If we read I Pet 3:21, Gal 3:26-27, Mark 16:16, Acts 22:16, Rom 6:3-4, and Acts 2:38 we can see it is the same question.

We are children of God by faith because we have been baptized INTO Christ and put on Christ - Gal 3:26-27


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## RH Clark (Jun 28, 2016)

spwatz said:


> We are saved by grace through faith.
> 
> Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord - Gen 6:8
> He received instructions on building the ark Gen 6:14-16
> ...



According to your misunderstanding of the scriptures, in applying a grace+faith+works= salvation doctrine,deaf and dump people could not be saved because they could not confess. The thief on the cross could not be saved because he was neither baptized nor did he accomplish the necessary works. There would be no death bed salvations because there would not be any works there either.

How many works are necessary to earn salvation in your doctrine, one year, one week, one day, one hour, one minuet, one second? I want to know what happens to the person who cries out to God to save him but dies before he has a chance to accomplish the works. How long does he have to work to earn his salvation? I know you say salvation can't be earned but then you also say that you have to work to get it, so how long do you have to work?


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## welderguy (Jun 29, 2016)

spwatz said:


> We are saved by grace through faith.
> 
> Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord - Gen 6:8
> He received instructions on building the ark Gen 6:14-16
> ...



By "baptism", you are referring to being baptized by the Holy Spirit, right?
Or are you referring to the symbol of it when a person is lowered into water by a minister?

My point is there is only one way to be "in Christ", and it has NOTHING to do with man's action.1 Cor.1:30.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 29, 2016)

I think it boils down to what is the "water" in the following passage;

John 3:5
4“How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time to be born?” 5Jesus answered “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.  6Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit.

Is it the water of man's first birth?(Mother's womb/water)

Nicodemus is asking if it is another physical birth(water). Jesus explains that the new birth is spiritual thus explaining that a man must have two births. First a physical water birth and second a spiritual birth. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 
Jesus explains "water & spirit" and shows it's contrast with "flesh & spirit."


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## RH Clark (Jun 29, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think it boils down to what is the "water" in the following passage;
> 
> John 3:5
> 4“How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time to be born?” 5Jesus answered “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.  6Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit.
> ...



In that example Jesus used water as a symbol of the Holy Spirit, just as he did when speaking to the woman at the well telling her that he would give her water and she would never thirst again.

The Hebrew word translated there as "and", when Jesus says you must be born of the Spirit "and" of water is also translated as "even". In this case "even" would have been the correct translation.

In that conversation with Nicodemus Jesus told him he must be born of water, speaking of the Holy Spirit. When Jesus saw that Nicodemus didn't understand the use of water as a representation of the Holy Spirit, Jesus added "even of the Spirit.".


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## RH Clark (Jun 29, 2016)

welderguy said:


> By "baptism", you are referring to being baptized by the Holy Spirit, right?
> Or are you referring to the symbol of it when a person is lowered into water by a minister?
> 
> My point is there is only one way to be "in Christ", and it has NOTHING to do with man's action.1 Cor.1:30.



My brother, we agree on so many things. In the future I am determined to magnify what we agree on rather than magnify what we disagree on.

Good post!


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## welderguy (Jun 29, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> My brother, we agree on so many things. In the future I am determined to magnify what we agree on rather than magnify what we disagree on.
> 
> Good post!



Bless you brother.
May we both strive to be wise as serpents but harmless as doves,for Christ's glory only.


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## Jeffriesw (Jun 29, 2016)

jbogg said:


> I have never heard that scripture explained so clearly. Thank you RH!  My faith walk has been a journey, with some climbs much steeper than others.  I have a long way to go, but very thankful for people like yourself.



Don't we all brother? Becoming more like the Son is all of our destination. Admittedly, some of us are a little slower than others , but by the Grace of God, we will.
Don't think about where you have to "get to", He is faitful to get you there. Thank the Lord we are still not where we were. 

I think all believers ought to hold fast to what St. Paul told the believers in Philippi

Philippians 1:6
6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.





RH Clark said:


> Thank you for the kind words but we are all equal in the Body of Christ. Some are strong where others are weak but everyone has both strengths and weaknesses. That's why we so desperately need each other.
> 
> When you say,"I have a long way to go.", it's fine to have humility but I also want you to know that if you are born again, you stand perfect before God. Don't ever see yourself as less in God's eyes. God only looks at us as "in Christ." In Christ is our only hope, yet in him we stand perfect before God.
> 
> ...




Amen Brother
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.


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