# Jesus' Farewell Discourse



## Artfuldodger

In the New Testament, Chapters 14-17 of the Gospel of John are known as the Farewell Discourse given by Jesus to eleven of his disciples immediately after the conclusion of the Last Supper in Jerusalem, the night before his crucifixion.

He lets them know they will have a special guidance from the Holy Spirit and to Love one another.  The New Commandment: "love one another as I have loved you" is presented to them. 

We know from other books and chapters that every Christian receives guidance from the Holy Spirit and are required to love others.

The question is: does the Farewell Discourse pertain directly to us or was it just for the disciples?


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## Artfuldodger

How to Interpret the Bible

by Matt Slick

The Bible is God’s Word. But some of the interpretations derived from it are not.  There are many cults and Christian groups that use the Bible, claiming their interpretations are correct.  Too often, however, the interpretations not only differ dramatically but are clearly contradictory.  This does not mean that the Bible is a confusing document. Rather, the problem lies in those who interpret and the methods they use.

We need, as best as can be had, the guidance of the Holy Spirit in interpreting God’s Word.

Because we are sinners, we are incapable of interpreting God’s word perfectly all of the time.  The body, mind, will, and emotions are affected by sin and make 100% interpretive accuracy impossible.  This does not mean that accurate understanding of God’s Word is impossible.  But it does mean that we need to approach His word with care, humility, and reason. Additionally, we need, as best as can be had, the guidance of the Holy Spirit in interpreting God’s Word.  After all, the Bible is inspired by God and is addressed to His people.  The Holy Spirit helps us to understand what God’s word means and how to apply it.

http://carm.org/how-interpret-bible


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> How to Interpret the Bible
> 
> by Matt Slick
> 
> The Bible is God’s Word. But some of the interpretations derived from it are not.  There are many cults and Christian groups that use the Bible, claiming their interpretations are correct.  Too often, however, the interpretations not only differ dramatically but are clearly contradictory.  This does not mean that the Bible is a confusing document. Rather, the problem lies in those who interpret and the methods they use.
> 
> We need, as best as can be had, the guidance of the Holy Spirit in interpreting God’s Word.
> 
> Because we are sinners, we are incapable of interpreting God’s word perfectly all of the time.  The body, mind, will, and emotions are affected by sin and make 100% interpretive accuracy impossible.  This does not mean that accurate understanding of God’s Word is impossible.  But it does mean that we need to approach His word with care, humility, and reason. Additionally, we need, as best as can be had, the guidance of the Holy Spirit in interpreting God’s Word.  After all, the Bible is inspired by God and is addressed to His people.  The Holy Spirit helps us to understand what God’s word means and how to apply it.
> 
> http://carm.org/how-interpret-bible





Its a fascinating thing, The relationship man has with The Word of God, Scripture,The Holy Bible...We take it to be The Truth and the end all of all arguments, we even use our own interpretation of it to argue with God himself.
How many of us would follow the voice of God when it contradicts our understanding of The Word of God?

Do we show the faith of Abraham, or the decietfulness of Satan himself when he argured the Scripture with Jesus during the temptation?Jobs misreable comforters used scripture against him,the scribes and pharisee misused the scriptures.

 We are warned at the end of The Revelation of Jesus Christ to not add or change a word in that book....yet we do.It's not just cults that do it, but men that want to be seen as closer to God or desire to be looked upon as greater than others...just like the scribes and pharisee, mans nature has not changed, Thank God he sent us a Savior!


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> In the New Testament, Chapters 14-17 of the Gospel of John are known as the Farewell Discourse given by Jesus to eleven of his disciples immediately after the conclusion of the Last Supper in Jerusalem, the night before his crucifixion.
> 
> He lets them know they will have a special guidance from the Holy Spirit and to Love one another.  The New Commandment: "love one another as I have loved you" is presented to them.
> 
> We know from other books and chapters that every Christian receives guidance from the Holy Spirit and are required to love others.
> 
> The question is: does the Farewell Discourse pertain directly to us or was it just for the disciples?



It was to his Disciples.He had been telling them all alone but they did not understand, even when He prayed in the garden, they didn't understand what was about to take place.


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## barryl

Artfuldodger said:


> In the New Testament, Chapters 14-17 of the Gospel of John are known as the Farewell Discourse given by Jesus to eleven of his disciples immediately after the conclusion of the Last Supper in Jerusalem, the night before his crucifixion.
> 
> He lets them know they will have a special guidance from the Holy Spirit and to Love one another.  The New Commandment: "love one another as I have loved you" is presented to them.
> 
> We know from other books and chapters that every Christian receives guidance from the Holy Spirit and are required to love others.
> 
> The question is: does the Farewell Discourse pertain directly to us or was it just for the disciples?


John 14:26 If you will notice, But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father "will send in my name," . . . etc. I think you can safely say it was written for you{us}


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## Ronnie T

In this case, Jesus was speaking in regard to those apostles who were with Him.  The same apostles who would be given the task of spreading and establishing the physical church.  
Most of Jesus' words there were not for me.  His apostles were different from me.  His apostles were given a task that I have not been given.

Read chapter 17.  The entire chapter is a prayer.  Two verses of that prayer pertain to me......  Most of the rest of it pertain to Jesus' very close connection to those apostles.
The primary purpose of the prayer is Jesus' desire for the glorification of His father.
Then, the prayer provides me a glimpse of the very close relationship Jesus had with those 11 apostles.  They had become a gift to Him.  That prayer leaves no doubt..... Jesus felt a very strong connection with those men, and He had their future on His mind.  It is an amazing look into Jesus' love for them.

I want to have that same relationship with Him today.


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## Ronnie T

John 14........  Jesus enlightening His apostles of their future and how the Spirit of God would provide the material of their teachings.

in the following verses, the "you" and "us" do not apply to me, but to the apostles.

25 “These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful. 28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 Now I have told you before it happens, so that when it happens, you may believe. 30 I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me; 31 but so that the world may know that I love the Father, I do exactly as the Father commanded Me. Get up, let us go from here.


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## gemcgrew

barryl said:


> John 14:26 If you will notice, But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father "will send in my name," . . . etc. I think you can safely say it was written for you{us}



I agree. 1 John 2:20,27 are good reference.


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## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> I agree. 1 John 2:20,27 are good reference.



Good reference, but in John 14 Jesus is still talking and dealing with the coming needs of His apostles.
Jesus is not addressing you and I in most of chap 14.

Good information to know. But not speaking to us.
.


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## barryl

barryl said:


> John 14:26 If you will notice, But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father "will send in my name," . . . etc. I think you can safely say it was written for you{us}


Be careful, "Big Brother" Ronnie T. is watching. You get a "Come on Man." SPIRITUAL APPLICATION


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## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Good reference, but in John 14 Jesus is still talking and dealing with the coming needs of His apostles.
> Jesus is not addressing you and I in most of chap 14.
> 
> Good information to know. But not speaking to us.
> .



I take it that you do not believe the Holy Spirit indwells every believer and comforts, instructs and guides them by showing Christ and the things of Christ.


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## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> I take it that you do not believe the Holy Spirit indwells every believer and comforts, instructs and guides them by showing Christ and the things of Christ.



That's not the point.
My point is that Jesus' instructions in John 14 belong to the apostles, and not to you and I.  It is proof that the apostles were inspired as they taught and recorded the Gospel.  Later on, Jesus and the apostles deal with the subject of the Holy Spirit for you and I, but John 14 by and large belong to Jesus and His apostles.

As I've already posted, these following words were directed to Jesus' apostles.  These words do not apply to you and I at all, not as written in this chapter.
.................................. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful. 28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 Now I have told you before it happens, so that when it happens, you may believe. 30 I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming,...."

The above words are actually a part of the commissioning of the apostles.


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## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> That's not the point.
> My point is that Jesus' instructions in John 14 belong to the apostles, and not to you and I.  It is proof that the apostles were inspired as they taught and recorded the Gospel.  Later on, Jesus and the apostles deal with the subject of the Holy Spirit for you and I, but John 14 by and large belong to Jesus and His apostles.
> 
> As I've already posted, these following words were directed to Jesus' apostles.  These words do not apply to you and I at all, not as written in this chapter.
> .................................. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful. 28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 Now I have told you before it happens, so that when it happens, you may believe. 30 I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming,...."
> 
> The above words are actually a part of the commissioning of the apostles.



I understand your reasoning but I see nothing there that does not apply to me.


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## gemcgrew

Ronnie, do you believe the Holy Spirit indwells every believer and comforts, instructs and guides them by showing Christ and the things of Christ?


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## Artfuldodger

1 Corinthians 3:16 Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?
Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
Romans 8:9  You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

While there are verses that pertain directly to us, there are some that don't. They could be very similar in nature and contain the same message.
I like to use the analogy of people quoting verses against homosexuality. Instead of quoting Old Testament verses, quote New Testament verses.


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## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> That's not the point.
> My point is that Jesus' instructions in John 14 belong to the apostles, and not to you and I.  It is proof that the apostles were inspired as they taught and recorded the Gospel.  Later on, Jesus and the apostles deal with the subject of the Holy Spirit for you and I, but John 14 by and large belong to Jesus and His apostles.
> 
> As I've already posted, these following words were directed to Jesus' apostles.  These words do not apply to you and I at all, not as written in this chapter.
> .................................. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful. 28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 Now I have told you before it happens, so that when it happens, you may believe. 30 I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming,...."
> 
> The above words are actually a part of the commissioning of the apostles.





gemcgrew said:


> I understand your reasoning but I see nothing there that does not apply to me.



Well, I see things there that don't apply to you or me.
There are some great teaching for us concerning the HS in our lives, but not in this chapter.

In this chapter, the apostles are being enlightened concerning the Holy Spirits involvement in the work of the apostles.  The establishment of salvation in Christ.  All the teachings that we now have recorded.
Those teachings came from the Holy Spirit.
.


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## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> Ronnie, do you believe the Holy Spirit indwells every believer and comforts, instructs and guides them by showing Christ and the things of Christ?



The Bible makes it clear that each person who is in Christ has received the Holy Spirit.
Yes sir I believe it.


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> I like to use the analogy of people quoting verses against homosexuality. Instead of quoting Old Testament verses, quote New Testament verses.


Your analogy is terrible. Art, I do not understand your fixation on this subject. It is clear to me that homosexuals and those who support or condone them are non-Christians and are to be treated as such. 

"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet." (Romans 1:26,27) 

"Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." (Romans 1:32)


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## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> I like to use the analogy of people quoting verses against homosexuality. Instead of quoting Old Testament verses, quote New Testament verses.



Not to derail the topic, but it's usually the "gay is OK" crowd who brings up the OT verses.


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## formula1

*Re:*

The entire canon of scripture, including the farewell discourse in John 14-17, is for all of Christs' disciples.  So if you are in Christ, you are His disciple and the words of John 14-17 apply to you as well, as does the rest of scripture.  Some sayings can be difficult though, and sometimes we are just not spiritually ready for them. And that is perfectly OK. God will always give you what you need to be what He wants!

I just read this section again. I started to write examples in detail of my own experiences where these verses have proven out they are meant for me, but I will refrain for now. How one can honestly look at these verses and NOT see them active in their life as a believer, if they have been a believer any reasonable amount of time, is beyond my comprehension!  My suspicion is an effort to explain away scripture they are uncomfortable with or that doesn't fit their doctrinal viewpoint. If that is where you are then OK, I accept that.  But there is so much more for those who are willing!  The only danger I see is if our viewpoint is taking away the blessings of God for others in our care (just asking). Would God want us to do that? 

God Bless!


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## gemcgrew

formula1 said:


> The entire canon of scripture, including the farewell discourse in John 14-17, is for all of Christs' disciples.  So if you are in Christ, you are His disciple and the words of John 14-17 apply to you as well, as does the rest of scripture.


I agree. Ronnie appears to be focused on "He will teach you all things" and also "and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you". The only way I can agree with Ronnie's strict view here is if by "all things", Ronnie believes they were made omniscient. I do not see any support for this view.

Perhaps Ronnie will offer more clarity of his understanding here.


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Your analogy is terrible. Art, I do not understand your fixation on this subject. It is clear to me that homosexuals and those who support or condone them are non-Christians and are to be treated as such.
> 
> "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet." (Romans 1:26,27)
> 
> "Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." (Romans 1:32)



The point I  was trying to make is for people to use verses that pertain to our New Covenant, not the Old Covenant. 
There are verses against homosexuality as you quoted and others not to have to bring up Leviticus. 

1 Corinthians 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

This was brought up as a comparison against using wrong scripture. Why use the farewell discourse when you can use other verses that do pertain to us? Now if you believe those verses pertain to every Christian then use them. If you believe the Old Testament laws still pertain to us then quote them. It was just a comparison.


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## Artfuldodger

OK so now the discussion has moved to the question, Did the disciples have special authority or powers granted only to them?

John 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Matthew 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

Luke 9:3 He told them: "Take nothing for the journey--no staff, no bag, no bread, no money, no extra tunic.


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## Artfuldodger

Can we also assume every verse in the Bible where Jesus is talking to a disciple is related directly to us because we are also disciples?
Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:26) 

None of you can become my disciple if you do not give up all your possessions. 
(Luke 14:32) 

He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.
(Luke 22:36)


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> OK so now the discussion has moved to the question, Did the disciples have special authority or powers granted only to them?
> 
> John 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
> 
> Matthew 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
> 
> Luke 9:3 He told them: "Take nothing for the journey--no staff, no bag, no bread, no money, no extra tunic.






Artfuldodger said:


> Can we also assume every verse in the Bible where Jesus is talking to a disciple is related directly to us because we are also disciples?
> Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:26)
> 
> None of you can become my disciple if you do not give up all your possessions.
> (Luke 14:32)
> 
> He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.
> (Luke 22:36)



Art, all of the verses directly relate to the believer, spiritually.


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Art, all of the verses directly relate to the believer, spiritually.



I'm not exactly sure what you are asking. I believe they were directed to the disciples. Just as other verses were related to Jews, there can be wisdom & guidance from those verses. The Old Testament can be used for learning and guidance. The farewell discourse can be used for guidance as it mirrors other verses that do pertain to me but it wasn't written to me.
I don't believe Jesus wants me to give up my cloak and buy a sword when I witness.


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm not exactly sure what you are asking.


It was a statement, not a question.



Artfuldodger said:


> I don't believe Jesus wants me to give up my cloak and buy a sword when I witness.


If that is what you get from this verse, I would agree.


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## Artfuldodger

I take Luke 22:36 literally. The disciples were going to go out into a violent land full of robbers & mean people that had the will of their own to kill & rob.Jesus wanted them to have the proper provisions for traveling and knew they would meet great resistance.

Prior to His crucifixion, Jesus revealed to His disciples the future hostility they would face and encouraged them to sell their outer garments in order to buy a sword (Luke 22:36-38; cf. 2 Corinthians 11:26-27). Here the "sword" (Greek: maxairan) is a dagger or short sword that belonged to the Jewish traveler's equipment as protection against robbers and wild animals. A plain reading of the passage indicates that Jesus approved of self-defense.

Self-defense may actually result in one of the greatest examples of human love. Christ Himself said, "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:14). When protecting one's family or neighbor, a Christian is unselfishly risking his or her life for the sake of others.

http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/qselfdefense.html

I disagree Ash… there is nothing in the passage here in Luke to indicate the “Sword” is the Bible.

As I am sure you are aware, words can mean different things in different contexts. In this passages… a moneybag means… a moneybag, a knapsack means a knapsack, a cloak means a cloak, and a sword means a sword. 
http://learntheology.com/sword-for-defense.html


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## Ronnie T

There was a difference is the apostles and us!!!!!!!!!!!
A person must be able to admit that.  

And, when an apostle stood to speak, such as Peter in Acts 2, those apostles spoke by the absolute power of the Holy Spirit.  I believe they often spoke words and doctrinal issues that they didn't even completely understand themselves.  They were the APOSTLES.

Verses that always applied to the apostles, but don't always apply to you and I:

John 14:13 Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.
John 14:25 “These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
(verse 25-26 are Jesus' empowering the apostles to receive, remember, spread, and establish the Gospel of salvation in/thru Christ to all the world). (We now study their lives of doing that).
John 15:26 “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, 27 and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning. (Jesus isn't here speaking of our relationship with the Holy Spirit, He's speaking in regard to His apostles and their work)
John 16:12 “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you. (Again, speaking to the apostles about their ministry.  Not to me about my ministry)
John 16:32 Behold, an hour is coming, and has already come, for you to be scattered, each to his own home, and to leave Me alone; and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me. 33 These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world.”

Chapter 17.  The Priestly prayer.
Practically all of it is addressed towards the well being of the apostles, and Jesus' wishes and concerns for them.  Practically all of it.
John 17:24 Father, I desire that they also(those 11 apostles), whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 “O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me;


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## gemcgrew

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;" (John 17:20)


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## formula1

*Re:*

There was a difference is the apostles and us!!!!!!!!!!!
A person must be able to admit that. 

The only difference being that they lived and walked with Jesus on the earth and that they died for their belief.  The Spirit of God was with them physically.  They were able to share the experiences with the Master and tell His earthly story.  Yet when the Holy Spirit fell at Pentecost, that same Spirit became available to each one of us. 

And, when an apostle stood to speak, such as Peter in Acts 2, those apostles spoke by the absolute power of the Holy Spirit. I believe they often spoke words and doctrinal issues that they didn't even completely understand themselves. They were the APOSTLES.

They were lots of apostles (one who is sent out).  It is a position in the church for the perfecting of the saints (Ephesians 4). Admittedly, it is not used by many today as a label, though there are plenty doing the work. 

Verses that always applied to the apostles, but don't always apply to you and I:

John 14 ( lets keep context and add one verse)
12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask me[e] anything in my name, I will do it.

John 14:25 “These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

This speaks of the coming of the Holy Spirit to all believers (Acts 2).  And the Holy Spirit was for all believers. Read it for yourself:

Acts 2 
38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” God brings to my remembrance  His word all the time through the Holy Spirit within me!  All the Time! 


(verse 25-26 are Jesus' empowering the apostles to receive, remember, spread, and establish the Gospel of salvation in/thru Christ to all the world). (We now study their lives of doing that).
John 15:26 “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, 27 and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning. (Jesus isn't here speaking of our relationship with the Holy Spirit, He's speaking in regard to His apostles and their work)
John 16:12 “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you. (Again, speaking to the apostles about their ministry. Not to me about my ministry)
John 16:32 Behold, an hour is coming, and has already come, for you to be scattered, each to his own home, and to leave Me alone; and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me. 33 These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world.”

He's speaking to the apostles as He speaks, but also to all believers! God testifys through me all the time by the Holy Spirit.  The Holy Spirit came from the Father, given by Jesus, to guide each one of us into His truth, both in the written word we know and the leading of the Holy Spirit as we walk.  The Holy Spirit gives me exactly what I need as it comes from Jesus as He sits at the right hand of God.  What the apostles needed may very well be different than what I need, but Jesus relates to me what He wants for me through the Holy Spirit.  Right now, today and everyday!  I'm also joyous to know I have the Power to overcome the trbulations of this world throught Christ!  Overjoyed!  Aren't you? Also, is it not true, that as they were scattered all over to bring the Gospel to a myriad of places, aren't we also scattered to the places that we are for the gospels sake in the same way?


Chapter 17. The Priestly prayer.
Practically all of it is addressed towards the well being of the apostles, and Jesus' wishes and concerns for them. Practically all of it.

John 17:24 Father, I desire that they also(those 11 apostles), whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 “O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me; 

Again, if you are going to look at John 17:24, you better look at it in context. You say it says 11 apostles, but that's not what it says, ever!  In fact, it says quite the opposite:

John 17
20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. 26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.” 

As gemcgrew so excellently pointed out Verse 20 puts it all in context! To ignore that part is to miss the whole of the message!


----------



## gemcgrew

formula1 said:


> They were lots of apostles (one who is sent out).  It is a position in the church for the perfecting of the saints (Ephesians 4). Admittedly, it is not used by many today as a label, though there are plenty doing the work.


We have Judas as an example as to why we do not look to man, labels, titles, etc. I do not attribute the apostles with the work performed, but God.


----------



## formula1

gemcgrew said:


> We have Judas as an example as to why we do not look to man, labels, titles, etc. I do not attribute the apostles with the work performed, but God.



As I do, Excellent point! One waters, one plants, God increases!  God bless!


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## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;" (John 17:20)



There's a great verse that points out the enormous difference in myself and the apostles.

"....which shall believe on me through their word".

Those eleven were God's method for the establishment of the church.  When they spoke, God spoke.  They were the prophets.  They were the one's who took each step of life through God's direct decree.
When they opened their mouths God's words came forth.

Jesus prayed that they be one, even as He and the Father were one....... and they were.  They stayed the course, they never faultered.  

No one can or will ever be as they were.  But it great to have the same Lord as they.


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## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> We have Judas as an example as to why we do not look to man, labels, titles, etc. I do not attribute the apostles with the work performed, but God.



Absolutely.
.


----------



## gordon 2

> : Verses that always applied to the apostles, but don't always apply to you and I:
> 
> John 14 ( lets keep context and add one verse)
> 12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask me[e] anything in my name, I will do it.[end quote]
> 
> Ok I am slow... and late.... what do y'all base on that this is directed to the apostles only. Sorry if I still have to raise my hand in the class... but... I what to pass also. So what do you base this one... that it is only for the apostles?


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## Ronnie T

formula1 said:


> There was a difference is the apostles and us!!!!!!!!!!!
> A person must be able to admit that.
> 
> The only difference being that they lived and walked with Jesus on the earth and that they died for their belief.  The Spirit of God was with them physically.  They were able to share the experiences with the Master and tell His earthly story.  Yet when the Holy Spirit fell at Pentecost, that same Spirit became available to each one of us.
> That same Spirit, but not used of God in the same ways!  The Spirit helps you believe and comprehend the teachings of the apostles.  But the Spirit led the apostles to say words that had never been spoken before.  Doctrine that had never been taught before.  No, this does not apply to you and I to the depth it did to the apostles.
> 
> And, when an apostle stood to speak, such as Peter in Acts 2, those apostles spoke by the absolute power of the Holy Spirit. I believe they often spoke words and doctrinal issues that they didn't even completely understand themselves. They were the APOSTLES.
> 
> They were lots of apostles (one who is sent out).  It is a position in the church for the perfecting of the saints (Ephesians 4). Admittedly, it is not used by many today as a label, though there are plenty doing the work.
> 
> There are no apostles today.  A church might call someone an apostles, but they ain't.
> 
> Verses that always applied to the apostles, but don't always apply to you and I:
> 
> John 14 ( lets keep context and add one verse)
> 12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask me[e] anything in my name, I will do it.
> 
> John 14:25 “These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
> 
> This speaks of the coming of the Holy Spirit to all believers (Acts 2).  And the Holy Spirit was for all believers. Read it for yourself:    The HS certainly is for all believers, but not to the extent and purpose as with the apostles.
> "Whatever you ask in My name I will do it" does not apply to you and I.  We claim it does, but it's just not so.
> 
> Acts 2
> 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” God brings to my remembrance  His word all the time through the Holy Spirit within me!  All the Time!
> 
> 
> (verse 25-26 are Jesus' empowering the apostles to receive, remember, spread, and establish the Gospel of salvation in/thru Christ to all the world). (We now study their lives of doing that).
> John 15:26 “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, 27 and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning. (Jesus isn't here speaking of our relationship with the Holy Spirit, He's speaking in regard to His apostles and their work)
> John 16:12 “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you. (Again, speaking to the apostles about their ministry. Not to me about my ministry)
> John 16:32 Behold, an hour is coming, and has already come, for you to be scattered, each to his own home, and to leave Me alone; and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me. 33 These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world.”
> 
> He's speaking to the apostles as He speaks, but also to all believers! God testifys through me all the time by the Holy Spirit.  The Holy Spirit came from the Father, given by Jesus, to guide each one of us into His truth, both in the written word we know and the leading of the Holy Spirit as we walk.  The Holy Spirit gives me exactly what I need as it comes from Jesus as He sits at the right hand of God.  What the apostles needed may very well be different than what I need, but Jesus relates to me what He wants for me through the Holy Spirit.  Right now, today and everyday!  I'm also joyous to know I have the Power to overcome the trbulations of this world throught Christ!  Overjoyed!  Aren't you? Also, is it not true, that as they were scattered all over to bring the Gospel to a myriad of places, aren't we also scattered to the places that we are for the gospels sake in the same way?
> I agree.  But the above verses belong to the relationship between Jesus and His apostles.  The Holy Spirit's work in my life and your life is addressed seperately.
> 
> 
> Chapter 17. The Priestly prayer.
> Practically all of it is addressed towards the well being of the apostles, and Jesus' wishes and concerns for them. Practically all of it.
> 
> John 17:24 Father, I desire that they also(those 11 apostles), whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 “O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me;
> 
> Again, if you are going to look at John 17:24, you better look at it in context. You say it says 11 apostles, but that's not what it says, ever!  In fact, it says quite the opposite:
> 
> John 17
> 20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. 26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”
> 
> As gemcgrew so excellently pointed out Verse 20 puts it all in context! To ignore that part is to miss the whole of the message!



I've already mentioned that verse 20 was Jesus' prayer for all believers.  No doubt.  But most of His prayer was for those 11 that God had appointed to Him.  It was Jesus seeing to their needs, just as He say to His mother's needs from the cross.

Read all of chapter 17.

These latter chapters of John's Gospel are much like the early chapters of Exodus.  Exodus tell about God's empowering of Moses so that he could be God's agent in freeing Israel and then leading them to the promised land.

These chapters in John tell about the empowering of the apostles, as God's agents, for the establishment of all that came after Jesus' death and resurrection.

Peace.


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## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> There's a great verse that points out the enormous difference in myself and the apostles.
> 
> "....which shall believe on me through their word".
> 
> Those eleven were God's method for the establishment of the church.  When they spoke, God spoke.  They were the prophets.  They were the one's who took each step of life through God's direct decree.
> When they opened their mouths God's words came forth.
> 
> Jesus prayed that they be one, even as He and the Father were one....... and they were.  They stayed the course, they never faultered.
> 
> No one can or will ever be as they were.



I disagree.


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## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> I disagree.



I don't see how.
Now you stop disagreeing with me.  Stop it!  
I really don't see how.


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## Ronnie T

gordon 2 said:


> : Verses that always applied to the apostles, but don't always apply to you and I:
> 
> John 14 ( lets keep context and add one verse)
> 12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask me[e] anything in my name, I will do it.[end quote]
> 
> Ok I am slow... and late.... what do y'all base on that this is directed to the apostles only. Sorry if I still have to raise my hand in the class... but... I what to pass also. So what do you base this one... that it is only for the apostles?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Simply, Yes.  That whatever the apostles need, in the establishment of the church, ask and they shall receive.
> Out of context, it doesn't seem that way.  In context, it does. (to me).
> 
> Now, don't misunderstand me.  I fully know God answers prayers today.  But verse 14 is very strongly directed to the apostles and their mission.
Click to expand...


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## Artfuldodger

There are no apostles today. Their foundational role is over.

http://www.scionofzion.com/apostles.htm


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## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> I don't see how.
> Now you stop disagreeing with me.  Stop it!
> I really don't see how.



I think our disagreement is in the application mostly. If we approach scripture with such a strict view, I think it is going to be problematic throughout. We could say, "that was just for him" or "that was just for her" or "that was just for them".

I understand your position but I think it is too limited.


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## formula1

*Re:*



gemcgrew said:


> I think our disagreement is in the application mostly. If we approach scripture with such a strict view, I think it is going to be problematic throughout. We could say, "that was just for him" or "that was just for her" or "that was just for them".
> 
> I understand your position but I think it is too limited.



Ronnie is a dear friend no doubt and we have bounced some similar things back and forth before in PM.  If he is comfortable with His viewpoint and it serves him well, I am happy for him.

Yet I too feel it is a very limiting view of these scriptures! 

May the Lord of Heaven bring clarity to all of our hearts and minds by the Holy Spirit!  I will just leave it at that! God bless!


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## Ronnie T

I'm not trying to diminish God's love for us, nor am I trying to restrict the works of the Holy Spirit.  Just trying to leave the words of Christ directed to those which He was speaking to.


In Eph 2, Paul is speaking to all who are saved in Christ.

Eph 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

I'm not trying to limit the things written by John(as inspired by the Holy Spirit).  I'm just leaving them where they were presented to us.


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## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Just trying to leave the words of Christ directed to those which He was speaking to.


Where else would we do this? Do you have another example?


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## hobbs27

I agree with Ronnie on this one.Thought I would share this little bit too.


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## Artfuldodger

"Just as I don't belong to the world they don't belong to the world."
"I sent them into the world just as you sent me into the world."

This was a special prayer from Jesus to his Father to keep his Apostles safe. It was a special request from Jesus to his Father. There was a special bond between Jesus and his Disciples. I'm not even jealous. In fact I would be disappointed in Jesus if he had not made this prayer. I would put this prayer in the same importance as when he later said: forgive them, for they know not what they do. Even before fulfilling his role of Savior, he was already acting as our Remediator. 
One would first have to see the close special bond Jesus had with his chosen twelve before one could see the "farewell discourse" was a compelling and distinctive portrait of who Jesus was. 
We truly are all disciples of Jesus and have the Gift of the Holy Spirit but it is truly different from what Jesus & the chosen 12 had with each other. 
I would say learn from their relationship and try to be a part of the plea where Jesus wanted the disciples to have the same connection He had with his Father.


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> We truly are all disciples of Jesus and have the Gift of the Holy Spirit but it is truly different from what Jesus & the chosen 12 had with each other.


How is it different? Can you show it?


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## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> How is it different? Can you show it?



Yes.  They were prophets.
.


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## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Yes.  They were prophets.
> .


Granted, to a point. If we are going to hold to the strictest terms, the prophetic office closed with John the Baptist and the apostolic office closed with the apostles. I would agree here. But I think there is a broad sense in which we can say that there are prophets and apostles today.


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## Artfuldodger

Peter in Acts 9: 36-43 raised Dorcas. 

Paul in Acts 20:7-12 raised the young man Eutychus.


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## Artfuldodger

The apostles could speak in tongues? 

And when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded in mind, because that every man heard them speak in his own tongue. And they were all amazed, and wondered, saying: Behold, are not all these, that speak, Galileans? And how have we heard, every man our own tongue wherein we were born? […] We have heard them speak in our own tongues the wonderful works of God. (Acts of the Apostles 2:6-8,11)
After the descent of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, the apostles went forth from their hiding-room and boldly proclaimed the Gospel of Jesus Christ to all peoples. The word of the Lord was preached, quite literally, to all peoples: To Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites

http://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com/2011/06/did-apostles-speak-in-tongues.html


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## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> Granted, to a point. If we are going to hold to the strictest terms, the prophetic office closed with John the Baptist and the apostolic office closed with the apostles. I would agree here. But I think there is a broad sense in which we can say that there are prophets and apostles today.



Personally, from my studies, I don't believe it even possible for there to be an apostle today.

As far as prophets, there's nothing left for a prophet to tell me today.  We obviously have plenty of people in the world who are ready to tell us of things anew.  But all of them have proved to be exactly what we expected they would be.  In Christ, now we have His word and His Gospel.
.


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## Ronnie T

On the subject of the apostles, please read the following words of Jesus.
As you read, listen to Jesus' heart.  Listen to His very special love for those Apostles.  Jesus is speaking to His father......

"Father......

6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9 I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. 11 I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. 12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
13 But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.
22 The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
25 “O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me; 26 and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

*Jesus' words of prayer concerning those men who had been with Him during His earthly ministry.
Powerful, and emotional.


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## Artfuldodger

It's amazing how reading a whole chapter or book knowing who the author is, who he was writing too, and how it pertains to me is different than quoting a single verse or two. 
I know we all quote verses because of time restraints. It would be wonderful to have the time to go over a whole chapter of the Bible while witnessing. 
I found this article about the apostles interesting:

The spiritual office of apostle is a vital office that demands a Biblical understanding. Some people believe that there are modern apostles, while others dismiss the authority of the ancient apostles. Both of these beliefs constitute critical dangers for us. Those who believe in modern apostles subject themselves to the authority of men, who may be perverting the true gospel, jeopardizing their own souls and the souls of their followers (Galatians 1:6-8). Others fail to heed the writings of the Bible, because of their failure to understand the authority of the true apostles. This may lead them to dismiss the importance of the Bible pattern, because of their failure to appreciate the position of the apostles who recorded it (Luke 10:16). Therefore, we must be careful to understand the nature of the apostles, so that we may properly understand God's will for us and appreciate the authority of God that is behind the writings of the apostles.

http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles/apostles.html


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## Artfuldodger

I just thought of another difference. Jesus spoke to the multitude in PARABLES so they wouldn't understand. He eventually spoke to the disciples so that they could understand. They had an insight that the multitudes didn't that was used for starting the first Church.

“And when He was alone, they that were about Him with the twelve asked of Him the parable.  And He said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God, but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables.

“That seeing they may see, and not perceived: and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted and their sins should be forgiven them.  And He said unto them, Know ye not this parable? And how then will you know all parables?”  Mark 4:10-13

Jesus hid the meaning of His teachings from the masses.
Mark 4:12 so that the Scriptures might be fulfilled: 'When they see what I do, they will learn nothing. When they hear what I say, they will not understand. Otherwise, they will turn to me and be forgiven.'"

I don't understand the mystery of Jesus and his parables, I was just showing yet another difference between us and the apostles.
There isn't a lot of commentary on Mark 4:12 leading me to believe it is still a mystery.


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## barryl

Artfuldodger said:


> It's amazing how reading a whole chapter or book knowing who the author is, who he was writing too, and how it pertains to me is different than quoting a single verse or two.
> I know we all quote verses because of time restraints. I would be wonderful to have the time to go over a whole chapter of the Bible while witnessing.
> I found this article about the apostles interesting:
> 
> The spiritual office of apostle is a vital office that demands a Biblical understanding. Some people believe that there are modern apostles, while others dismiss the authority of the ancient apostles. Both of these beliefs constitute critical dangers for us. Those who believe in modern apostles subject themselves to the authority of men, who may be perverting the true gospel, jeopardizing their own souls and the souls of their followers (Galatians 1:6-8). Others fail to heed the writings of the Bible, because of their failure to understand the authority of the true apostles. This may lead them to dismiss the importance of the Bible pattern, because of their failure to appreciate the position of the apostles who recorded it (Luke 10:16). Therefore, we must be careful to understand the nature of the apostles, so that we may properly understand God's will for us and appreciate the authority of God that is behind the writings of the apostles.
> 
> http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles/apostles.html


"It's amazing how reading a whole ch. or book knowing who the author is, who he was writing to, and how it pertains to me is different than quoting a single verse or two."  2 Tim. 2:15 Way to go, "Dodger" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## centerpin fan

After writing this:



barryl said:


> "It's amazing how reading a whole ch. or book knowing who the author is, who he was writing to, and how it pertains to me is different than quoting a single verse or two."



... you then quoted a single verse.

Just sayin'.


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## Artfuldodger

Another difference was apostles could turn or send someone over to satan. 

1 Corinthians 5:5 hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

"it was directed by apostolic authority"
" Apostles alone were intrusted with it."
" it is what no man, or set of men, have power to do now, since the ceasing of the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit, which the apostles were endowed with; who, as they had a power over Satan to dispossess him from the bodies of men, so to deliver up the bodies of men into his hands, as the apostle did this man's."
" The phrase seems to be Jewish, and to express that extraordinary power the apostles had in those days, as well in giving up the bodies to Satan, for a temporal chastisement, as in delivering them from him."


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## gordon 2

I suppose I should keep my lips shut... LOL...


But a few things which are mostly my opinions:

1. There are probably prophets today and real ones. Take Jeremiah for example. It is my opinion that Jeremiah was a prophet for simply understanding two things( of course there is mostly likely more to him):  (a)How the people of his time regarded God and  how theyfollowed His commands and (b)God's way of correcting transgression. Most folk when they think of prophet think of End of the World nutters... which if we care to notice...real prophets never were.

 Now, I would suggest ( my opinion) that for saints today this knowledge is easily known or knowable because saints live in relationship with God and His spirit which is in them but also with the help available in the body of Christ or the Church;  And the nature of God has not changed regards what the prophets waxed or still wax about.

2.Ok. Next. Ronnie my bros. Your opinions and ideas regards the Apostles are interesting.  If I was knowledgeable enough on catholic doctrine to articulate with it some points... I think it would be helpful to all, but alas I am not the man to do this. But let me guess that a catholic with dogma in his/her wallet, would say that what is missing for the recipe concerning  the question are there Apostles today or not?... is  who has the authority from Jesus according to scriptue to answer this and who has it to the extent the Holy Spirit does not furnish to it--just an opinion. (They would say, what does the church say,  along with our opinions--even if we are guided by the Holy Spirit, saved etc.)

He or she would say( I guess) that the Holy Spirit in us alone and our  personal relationship with God alone, is not sufficient to bring to the question-- that it could possibly be answered with sufficient authority and all we can hope for then in this case is "opinions" and live with our different opinions...but add to it ''What does the church say?" and then ....

 Also...They would say perhaps, that the foundation of the church being of the apostles...but also they were ministers  of the Good News... they had to fashion their tools to minister, and that part of the church which still ministers the good news can be apostolic because they put themselves into it......etc...( maybe). 

Perhaps. Now in the absence of there being a catholic perspective... y'all can at least phantom one...to serve  the purpose of truth and to offer clarity --or more opinions....

3. Also, this is a bit off topic, but it so happen I was reading on Plato's  notions on Idea just before reading the words attributed to Jesus (Farewell Address) in the scripture quoted in this tread. I find Jesus' words on the relationship between God, saints and the world very interesting in light of what is attributed to Plato regard the subject of  Idea and its relationship to man.

Now I know I should have kept my lips shut...or my fingers from typing this... but... I like you guys alot... and it can't be comfortable to be stuck in the mud of opinion regards our Lord and our shared life in Him. If anything... this made you laugh... and your minds took a brake.

And this last thing:


Ephesians 4
11 Some he has appointed to be apostles, others to be prophets, others to be evangelists, or pastors, or teachers. 12 They are to order the lives of the faithful, minister to their needs, build up the frame of Christ’s body, 13 until we all realize our common unity through faith in the Son of God, and fuller knowledge of him

So we shall reach perfect manhood, that maturity which is proportioned to the completed growth of Christ;[4] 14 we are no longer to be children, no longer to be like storm-tossed sailors, driven before the wind of each new doctrine that human subtlety, human skill in fabricating lies, may propound. 15 We are to follow the truth, in a spirit of charity, and so grow up, in everything, into a due proportion with Christ, who is our head.[5] 16 On him all the body depends; it is organized and unified by each contact with the source which supplies it; and thus, each limb receiving the active power it needs, it achieves its natural growth, building itself up through charity.


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## Ronnie T

It might be best to refer to them in the same way Jesus did during His prayer on their behalf......

"these men whom You gave Me out of the world".


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## barryl

centerpin fan said:


> After writing this:
> 
> 
> 
> ... you then quoted a single verse.
> 
> Just sayin'.


Thank the Lord for "Big Brother"!!!


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## Artfuldodger

Could we at least agree that if there are saints or disciples today, that the Holy Spirit works in them differently than you & me? Could it be the Holy Spirit works in preachers/priests differently than you & me? Perhaps the Holy Spirit moves in me differently than in you.


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## formula1

*re:*

The Holy Spirit moves in each believer according to what God wants for His Glory and His purpose in you!


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## Artfuldodger

formula1 said:


> The Holy Spirit moves in each believer according to what God wants for His Glory and His purpose in you!



Jesus gave all credit of his works to God his Father in the form of the Holy Spirit. The Apostles gave all credit of their special works to  God in the form of the Holy Spirit. 
They were all men, we are men. Jesus was a man with deity. The Apostles were men with divine intervention. 
What are we? We aren't God. We aren't guided as the apostles with special powers. We weren't hand picked by Jesus. I can't raise dead people. 
I'm working out my own salvation by trying to learn the difference. The key might be the Holy Spirit moving in each believer differently.


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## Ronnie T

Something just crossed my mind tonight as I was comparing my salvation to the salvation of the eleven.

The church was established after Jesus died and was resurrected... specifically, in Acts 2.
The apostle's salvation was affirmed prior to the establishment of the church, wasn't it?  Not a trick question, just a question.
.


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## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> Something just crossed my mind tonight as I was comparing my salvation to the salvation of the eleven.
> 
> The church was established after Jesus died and was resurrected... specifically, in Acts 2.
> The apostle's salvation was affirmed prior to the establishment of the church, wasn't it?  Not a trick question, just a question.
> .



How could they have been saved before the cross, and wouldn't Judas have known he was lacking something?


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## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> thank the lord for "big brother"!!!


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## Artfuldodger

They didn't receive the Holy Spirit until after the resurrection.  
John 20:22
And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
I thought the Holy Spirit  enters at the moment of salvation.
In the following link, the author says the disciples salvation was earlier than them recieving the Holy Spirit.

http://www.learnthebible.org/salvation-of-disciples.html

What about people of the Old Testament who had faith and kept the Law? Weren't they saved? What is the difference?

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 
In other words is belief in the existance of Christ as the Son of God enough to save or do we have to acknowledge that the Father has raised Him from the dead as well. Not to mention that when Peter acknowledged Christ for who He is, the atonement hadn't been paid yet.
Is believing Jesus died on the cross enough?


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## barryl

centerpin fan said:


> View attachment 717313


Like I have said before, I'm one of the meanest kids the Lord has, but, thank God I'm one of em'!!!!!


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## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> Something just crossed my mind tonight as I was comparing my salvation to the salvation of the eleven.
> 
> The church was established after Jesus died and was resurrected... specifically, in Acts 2.
> The apostle's salvation was affirmed prior to the establishment of the church, wasn't it?  Not a trick question, just a question.
> .



Is there a difference in anyones salvation beginning when Jesus died on the cross and the beginning of the Church at Penetcost? Did people have to wait for the resurrection or ascension for salvation?


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## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> Is there a difference in anyones salvation beginning when Jesus died on the cross and the beginning of the Church at Penetcost? Did people have to wait for the resurrection or ascension for salvation?



Well did they?????

And did Cornelius have to await the arrival of Peter?


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## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> How could they have been saved before the cross, and wouldn't Judas have known he was lacking something?


This is going to move us to an eternity/time discussion.


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## formula1

Artfuldodger said:


> Jesus gave all credit of his works to God his Father in the form of the Holy Spirit. The Apostles gave all credit of their special works to  God in the form of the Holy Spirit.
> They were all men, we are men. Jesus was a man with deity. The Apostles were men with divine intervention.
> What are we? We aren't God. We aren't guided as the apostles with special powers. We weren't hand picked by Jesus. I can't raise dead people.
> I'm working out my own salvation by trying to learn the difference. The key might be the Holy Spirit moving in each believer differently.



God deserves all the credit for anything and everything good in my life. I am sustained by His power as are you!

Jesus came as God in the flesh. Jesus is alive at God's right hand according to the will of the Father. He sits there because He was obedient to His Father even to death. The man that Jesus was in the flesh He desires every one of us to be, to follow His example, if you will, and be obedient to the will of the Father wherever it takes us.  God is your life and He wants to live His life in you and me. What life looks like may be different for each, but it is still Christ in you, the hope of Glory.  It comes with all the Power and capability of the Holy Spirit as the Holy Spirit moves on men according to the will of God. The same power that rested in the apostles rest in you.  We are all hand picked, just some of us were picked in the flesh by Jesus, and the rest picked by the Spirit of God as He chose.  He still chooses.

You could never raise dead people. Only the Holy Spirit could do that per the will of God. But if God chose to so move, He could do it through you. The thing to remember is, it's as God wills, not you or me as to how we are used by the Holy Spirit. We can't manufacture the movement of God as some would have you think since I'm sure you seen so called 'healing services'! But God can move in you via the Holy Spirit in whatever way He wants.  Those are the thoughts I had after reading you post.  Keep on seeking, you will find!


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## Artfuldodger

formula1 said:


> God deserves all the credit for anything and everything good in my life. I am sustained by His power as are you!
> 
> Jesus came as God in the flesh. Jesus is alive at God's right hand according to the will of the Father. He sits there because He was obedient to His Father even to death. The man that Jesus was in the flesh He desires every one of us to be, to follow His example, if you will, and be obedient to the will of the Father wherever it takes us.  God is your life and He wants to live His life in you and me. What life looks like may be different for each, but it is still Christ in you, the hope of Glory.  It comes with all the Power and capability of the Holy Spirit as the Holy Spirit moves on men according to the will of God. The same power that rested in the apostles rest in you.  We are all hand picked, just some of us were picked in the flesh by Jesus, and the rest picked by the Spirit of God as He chose.  He still chooses.
> 
> You could never raise dead people. Only the Holy Spirit could do that per the will of God. But if God chose to so move, He could do it through you. The thing to remember is, it's as God wills, not you or me as to how we are used by the Holy Spirit. We can't manufacture the movement of God as some would have you think since I'm sure you seen so called 'healing services'! But God can move in you via the Holy Spirit in whatever way He wants.  Those are the thoughts I had after reading you post.  Keep on seeking, you will find!



I still struggle between what were my choices & what were God's choices. I still struggle with what is my works, what is the Holy Spirit's works, and what is the work of Satan.
If everything I do is the work of the Holy Spirit then wherin lies the difference? That was my question. There is a difference between Jesus, the Apostles, and me. What is it? We all have the Holy Spirit.


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## formula1

*re:*

AD,

Death is the difference!

Don't stress it though. We all struggle with it.


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## Artfuldodger

formula1 said:


> AD,
> 
> Death is the difference!
> 
> Don't stress it though. We all struggle with it.



Could you go into that a little deeper? I was looking at our differences as bodies, souls, & spirits go. We all three have those. We know Jesus resurrected & ascended, that's a major difference. We know the disciples had special powers.
We know all three depended on the Holy Spirit at some point of their Earthly journey. 
Do we know that all three, as in Jesus, disciple, and us, have the free will to do the will of God? I don't know if Jesus could do the will of Satan but we can. The disciples possibly could do the will of Satan depending on if Judas was doing the will of Satan or God. I have to think God, same as the blinded Jews.
We've got a few forum members who say "everything is the will of God." I would like their answer to this question. What makes us different from Jesus or the disciples, if the Holy Spirit controls our every choice?
the Mormons and possibly some other denominations believe man can achieve deity. Even if we did become "Christlike", I don't believe we will achieve deity. If every thing we do is the work of the Holy Spirit, then why aren't we "Christlike?" (I know about the vessels, and God has a different purpose for each person.)


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## Artfuldodger

formula1 said:


> God deserves all the credit for anything and everything good in my life. I am sustained by His power as are you!
> 
> Jesus came as God in the flesh. Jesus is alive at God's right hand according to the will of the Father. He sits there because He was obedient to His Father even to death. The man that Jesus was in the flesh He desires every one of us to be, to follow His example, if you will, and be obedient to the will of the Father wherever it takes us.  God is your life and He wants to live His life in you and me. What life looks like may be different for each, but it is still Christ in you, the hope of Glory.  It comes with all the Power and capability of the Holy Spirit as the Holy Spirit moves on men according to the will of God. The same power that rested in the apostles rest in you.  We are all hand picked, just some of us were picked in the flesh by Jesus, and the rest picked by the Spirit of God as He chose.  He still chooses.
> 
> You could never raise dead people. Only the Holy Spirit could do that per the will of God. But God can move in you via the Holy Spirit in whatever way He wants.  Those are the thoughts I had after reading you post.  Keep on seeking, you will find!



As us being hand picked, do you believe in election? How is this different form just "God calling and we accepting?"
Do you only give God credit for the good in your life?
I do understand the Holy Spirit guiding me. I do understand miracles performed by humans is actually the work of the Holy Spirit. I do understand that everything Jesus did was actually the work of his Father. Let me re-phrase that about Jesus. Some of his works were his own. His super powers were from God.
I have to believe the difference is multifaceted.  Free-will, deity of Jesus, mission of the disciples, mission of individual man, natural occurrences, randomness, Satan, demons, natural selection, etc.
There are many differences and causes. Some by the forces of God(good), some by the forces of Satan(evil) , some by the forces of nature(storms), and some by the forces of randomness,(air plane off the end of a runway)
These are just my findings and yes it is a struggle. I'm still seeking. The Holy Spirit is my Comforter! 
I don't believe the Holy Spirit offers immunity from me becoming evil though.


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## formula1

*re:*

Man I don't sweat the details and I don't have to know everything. I just live for Jesus. Live by His grace, know Him and all will be well with you.


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## Ronnie T

What formula1 said.
Just live for Christ.  Love everyone, serve everyone.
Just give yourself to Christ.
You aren't going to answer all those questions.


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## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> What formula1 said.
> Just live for Christ.  Love everyone, serve everyone.
> Just give yourself to Christ.
> You aren't going to answer all those questions.



Yeah, sometimes we jest have to let the mystery be!


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## gordon 2

Very beautiful song Art. 

There is uncertainty perhaps, and uncertainty might be that we should be careful, and how to be careful spiritually. And to many this being careful  is left as Mystery and to the heavens of mystery. However... mystery rubed out, and discernment comes in for this?:

 1 Corinthians 8; 1,2

1. Now about food sacrificed to idols. "We all have knowledge" ; yes, that is so, but knowledge gives self-importance--it is love that makes the building grow. 2 A man my imagine he understands something, but still not understand anything in the way that he ought to. But any man who loves God is known by him.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does the love a man or woman has for God come for Him or something else? To who's image are we? and are we tried beyond our strength  an onto mystery?


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## Artfuldodger

I'm just referring to the mystery of God. Sometimes we get too involved in religion to be spiritual. I think that's what I'm guilty of sometimes.
I'm told to learn and still am. I would say there needs to be a balance between religion & spirituality.


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