# The Cross of Christ



## NoOne (Jan 2, 2021)

Perhaps you are reading these lines but do not have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. We want you to know that life begins at Calvary! To illustrate consider for a moment the vertical beam of the Cross. It represents the way through which the broken relationship between God and the sinner can be restored. The way is the Lord Jesus Christ. The Savior Himself said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me" (John 14:6).

In your heart of hearts you know that you are not right with God. Sin has separated you from the Holy One of Heaven and has made a mess of your life! It's left you living in fear of death and the judgment to come. I know, I've been there! Salvation is not found in what you can do to make yourself acceptable to God, but what He has already done for you at Calvary

The only way to restore your broken relationship with God is to believe that Christ died for your sins, was buried, and rose again the third day (I Cor. 15:3,4). As the song says, "When He was on the Cross, you were on His mind." The moment you place your faith in Christ's finished work, you will be forgiven of all your sins: past, present, and future. Keep in mind, too, that the day Christ died all of your sins were yet future.

Nothing in this life is free, someone paid for it! This is also true of God's provision of salvation; Christ paid for it with His precious blood. Today, God is offering salvation as a free gift to all who place their trust in His Son. When you believe the gospel, the burden of your sins will be lifted. You will for the first time in your life experience "peace with God" through our Lord Jesus Christ (Rom. 5:1). Once this relationship is established, it is permanent because you are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the redemption of the purchased possession (Eph. 1:13,14).

We might liken the horizontal beam of the Cross to our relationship with those around us. Our lives touch the lives of others. God has believers in every walk of life so that those who are still outside of Christ might have the opportunity to hear the good news. This horizontal beam also represents the importance of reaching out to our brothers and sisters in Christ who have yet to see the revelation of the Mystery (Rom. 16:25; Eph. 3:8,9), which raises an important question: when was the last time you shared Paul's gospel with a Christian friend?

Pastor Paul M Sadler


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## gordon 2 (Jan 2, 2021)

"The moment you place your faith in Christ's finished work, you will be forgiven of all your sins: past, present, and future."

Excuse the possible affront perceived by my question here. I assure you that the question is not meant to injure or debate, I simply wish to understand what so far in a long life I find I'm still unable to understand.

How is it that Christ's "finished work", the single event of the cross and the sacrificial death for sin attributed to it that my future sins are forgiven?

For example if I chose, even though I have placed my faith in Christ, to use the way of the world in dealing with another tomorrow, even as a one time exception, that will be an eye for an eye, a life for a life, insecurity for insecurity, hate for hate, extorsion for extorsion...how is this forgiven if I accomplish this.

Or put another way, today I'm a 100%er in God's love, but tomorrow I will purposely be a  one%er-- I will chose to act from the "the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness and.  not "with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth"? Further this way of proceeding will only be used infrequently as when my family, friends, my means of earning my daily bread are under stress or treat.

Why will this future sin that I will commit to, (if it is sin--perhaps it is something else), be forgiven for the singular event of the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross? There will be no consequence for my actions --not in God's eyes, and not in the body of Christ or other believers and  the faithful and I can proceed as guilt free?

Tomorrow I will lie and bare false witness, I will spin falsehood of truth and I will be guiltless, forgiven from the first plan of this design to its accomplishment. I will proceed knowing I have and will have no regret and that my life in Christ will remain steady and intact?


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## Madman (Jan 2, 2021)

gordon 2 said:


> "The moment you place your faith in Christ's finished work, you will be forgiven of all your sins: past, present, and future."
> 
> Excuse the possible affront perceived by my question here. I assure you that the question is not meant to injure or debate, I simply wish to understand what so far in a long life I find I'm still unable to understand.



I agree there is no debate, this idea of "saved, sanctified, and on the way to heaven", is not taught by the Church nor has it ever been taught.  It is also not Biblical, one could pull a couple of verses out and use them as proof text but it is dangerous theology.


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## NoOne (Jan 3, 2021)

Once Saved Always Changed


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## NoOne (Jan 7, 2021)

Shall we continue in sin that Grace may abound. A 35 minute MP3 message from Pastor J.C. O'Hair 1876-1958

https://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/...-We-Continue-In-Sin-That-Grace-May-Abound.mp3


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## j_seph (Jan 7, 2021)

gordon 2 said:


> "The moment you place your faith in Christ's finished work, you will be forgiven of all your sins: past, present, and future."
> 
> Excuse the possible affront perceived by my question here. I assure you that the question is not meant to injure or debate, I simply wish to understand what so far in a long life I find I'm still unable to understand.
> 
> ...



Did you have conviction on those 1% days, that made you quick to repent and ask forgiveness? Did it make you feel low, sad, sorry on those 1% days for what you had done?


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 7, 2021)

gordon 2 said:


> "The moment you place your faith in Christ's finished work, you will be forgiven of all your sins: past, present, and future."
> 
> Excuse the possible affront perceived by my question here. I assure you that the question is not meant to injure or debate, I simply wish to understand what so far in a long life I find I'm still unable to understand.
> 
> ...



I can only say neither my 1% days nor my 100% days warrant my salvation.  TBH, looked at from the perspective of His holiness, there's probably no discernible difference between the two.   It's all His grace and mercy regardless of my effort, my desire, or my adherence to his will.    I've lived in His grace and mercy since my physical birth and after my spiritual birth. It's all Him.  If any of it was or is ever dependent on me, I'm toast, burnt to a crisp.  He plucked me, and sealed me into the Kingdom at the age of 12 or so, and I haven't ever done a thing to warrant it other than yearning for it and praying for it years and years ago.

I really can't explain it, and from reading the opinions from both sides of the debate, no one else can either.  All the explanations I've read strike me to be like waves crashing on the rocks.  It's not for the want of trying or the good intentions behind both sides of the debate, it's just that it doesn't appear to me that either side has a handle on it.  How does one fathom the unfathomable, much less explain it to others.  It's much deeper than interpreting scripture, it's knowing and feeling the very heart of GOD.


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## Israel (Feb 8, 2021)

Why does/did God reveal Adam?

Because no man could accept to himself the depth of treachery to which he is capable.

Why does God reveal Christ?

Because no man can accept to himself how far in excess the righteousness of another can be.


Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.

God descends to man as helper.


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## NoOne (Feb 8, 2021)

1 Corinthians 1:18 "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God"


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## StriperAddict (Feb 10, 2021)

It is a dangerous, crippling doctrine to suggest that one's future sins "weren't paid yet", as that would mean there's going to be a needed additional "work" involved to forgive them. 

* When Christ hung on the cross, how many of your sins did He forgive?​* And at the cross, how many sins of yours and mine were in the future?​
Ans to both questions, All of them.  Any other answer leaves the burden on us to "do" something about them, sending us back to a heavy laden Christianity. 

Keep it simple and you just may find yourself enjoying God, His grace and love, and have something better to pass along than a mixed message gospel.


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## StriperAddict (Feb 10, 2021)

What I also see when discussing "tomorrow's" sins is there is NO acknowledgement of a new heart involved from the work of that One's death and resurrection.  Isn't your/our concern about NOT committing sins a sign of the forgiveness, life and new heart you and I received freely by grace?  

Does one without the Spirit care for such things? 

I applaud your concern but do not forget where such comes from, a righteous, forgiven child of God that lives from a new creation heart. If that wasn't you or I, then what are we doing discussing forgiveness in the first place?  (We do so from being joined to the Lord, not out of fear of the punishment Christ took on Himself).

I contest that if our motive for godliness is working on not doing sin, then where is the life there to prevent us?  Yet if our motive is to know this One who died once for our sins and seated us with Him, just how might that affect yours and my tomorrows??

II Cor 5:17 doesn't end at today or tomorrow's stumblings.  Grace teaches us to deny ungodliness.


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 10, 2021)

StriperAddict said:


> It is a dangerous, crippling doctrine to suggest that one's future sins "weren't paid yet", as that would mean there's going to be a needed additional "work" involved to forgive them.
> 
> * When Christ hung on the cross, how many of your sins did He forgive?​* And at the cross, how many sins of yours and mine were in the future?​
> Ans to both questions, All of them.  Any other answer leaves the burden on us to "do" something about them, sending us back to a heavy laden Christianity.
> ...



well said.


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## StriperAddict (Feb 11, 2021)

Additional encouragement to the whipped and beaten brethren ...


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## gemcgrew (Feb 12, 2021)

Christ... by Himself... purged our sins. Hebrews 1:3

That means there is nothing left for us to clean.


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## Israel (Feb 12, 2021)

The cross holds in itself a simultaneous revelation, the depth of love in which our Creator was willing to descend for our possession; and also the depth of depravity to which we had sunk in our treachery that has made such display of remedy nothing less than absolutely necessary.
Yet...this is not "Plan B", not something come up with in reaction, for we who believe are coming to see the Lamb slain _from the foundation of the world. _

It is profoundly marvelous to consider for it is no less profoundly free of all odiousness in both plan and execution. There is no (as it were) holding of the nose, no sighing resignation despite all the suffering to be surveyed there...no sad self pity that could taint "for the joy set before Him" to endure it.
In submission all that went into the garden of a soul troubled even to death comes out in such power that the utterance of "I am He" causes all who would seek to capture Him to fall.

"Don't weep for me..."

Instead..."weep for yourselves and for your children..."

"Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him, to put Him to grief..." is no small matter. It is a central thing, an essential thing that a man will find himself facing if he would come face to face with the maker of all.
What manner of person(hood) could find a pleasure in, not only the doing...but the planning of such...the ordaining or such? How can this be?

And even more...what sort of person would see to it I am made aware of that being His pleasure? Is there something that "came out" there...was expressed there under so great a pressure of bruising and grief...that "it" itself...so precious, so beyond the telling, ordained to tasting...that even eclipses the terrible pressing made to its expression?


What man could survey and not be consumed in despair at beholding the dread demand of sin's resolution unless the very display is to an end of administration of something so far beyond...an eternal "thing" as opposed to a temporal one?

But, who am I to ask such questions? Who am I to bring them up?

for God did shut up together the whole to unbelief, that to the whole He might do kindness.

There is only one thing that settles the question of God's ministration of mercy to any, to some, to whomever...and if or asking even perhaps...why?

Tasting.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 12, 2021)

Ok Jesus after the cross choses none of his to betray God. Betrayal is impossible. We are completed as to salvation. But all have full inheritance within eternal life? It would seem that for sin we don't.




Paul says this to the Corinthian believers:

*1 Corinthians 6:9-10*




9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul says that for unrighteousness believers will not inherit the kingdom of God.

--------

Now this is where I come in

: Salvation is the gift of eternal life. *"God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."*

Is eternal life complete if sin prevents me for the inheritance of the kingdom of God?

And we know that it is possible that believers are with sin so that they do not inherit the blessings within this kingdom--simply because Paul points it out to the Corinthians who presumably know these sins and yet are believers.

And as believers they are all saved we agree, but yet for sin even saved they forgo an inheritance which can be theirs namely the kingdom of God.

So the question is this: Is eternal life the gift of God which restores man in intimate relationship with Him, in this case through Jesus Christ, compromised by sin?

**Is the lack of the  inheritance of the kingdom god  an injury to eternal life? And since believers who sin forgo this inheritance is sin an injury to eternal life? Is it in the design of eternal life that believers should inherit the kingdom of god?*

*And if eternal life is injured due sin is the salvation remaining ( for we are nevertheless saved) is this what God's gift of Jesus Christ intended-- that though saved the man of faith in Jesus Christ can do without the inheritance of the kingdom?*

*I will venture that since Paul points out that it is no so good that the Corinthians go without the kingdom of god that it is not so good for us today who are to the church in Timbuctoo or Tucson. It is not so good because it compromises eternal life, that is it compromises the full life power of what the cross was meant to accomplish. And that since it is sin after the cross that compromises eternal life, it is forgiveness and repentance after the cross which restores the gift to its intended purpose.*

It is my understanding, perhaps it is an understanding in poverty, that without the kingdom of god a saint has his two feet unsteady. The platform meant to support in common the saints shifts or shifting the saints are prone to the winds of doctrines etc. and as such eternal life is compromised.

The cross does not by itself cover the sin that caused eternal life to be compromised... but for faith ( the same faith that brought one to the cross)  the plea for further forgiveness and repentance restores a fuller relationship with the Lord. And that plea must be laid at the praying Church.

Now these things are hard to understand and God has set up the instrument of the Church to bind earnest repentance and restore all inheritances and therefore all potential due eternal life. If a saint with full inheritance in eternal life needs to pray in tongue that petitions be understood, how much more is required in the prayer contortions of a saved minister having no inheritance in the kingdom of god? The prayers of that individual are rarely enough perhaps and so:

*James 5:16 ESV / 919 helpful votes *
Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.
*Ephesians 6:18 ESV / 477 helpful votes *
Praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints,
*1 Timothy 2:1 ESV / 450 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful*
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,
*Philippians 4:6 ESV / 346 helpful votes *
Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.
*Colossians 1:9 ESV / 338 helpful votes *
And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,
------------------


To my understanding we need the church that our sins are forgiven if we sin even though we are saved. The one time forgiveness of sin due the cross is not correct and Paul would not agree. There would be no need of Paul's caution to the Corinthians nor the remedy  and the remedy is that the church's prayers can restore, along with genuine repentance by the sinner, a saint that has backslid.

Just as sin by a sinner before the cross needed to be removed by the cross and was impossible for the sinner alone, so it is the case with the saint who sins. By himself it is impossible.  Even by himself in his/her said relationship with Jesus it is impossible--because it comes for a place unbound and outside the kingdom.

The prayers of a saved person that is unrighteous  due sin cannot be effective. Saved, even saved, that person cannot restore himself or herself  to the  greatest potentials  for themselves due to all inheritance without the prayers of the Church. The cross alone and a saved person left to his or her own device, does not cover the sins of that saved person, sin said present and future.


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## NoOne (Feb 12, 2021)

The nation of Israel and the Body of Christ


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 12, 2021)

gordon 2 said:


> Ok Jesus after the cross choses none of his to betray God. Betrayal is impossible. We are completed as to salvation. But all have full inheritance within eternal life? It would seem that for sin we don't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I’m not certain Paul was speaking ABOUT the Corinthians believers though he was speaking to them. The very next verse says “And that is what you WERE.”  To a simpleton that would imply a distinction.  He’s not speaking about believers, but unbelievers, but that’s just what the text says.  Furthermore that verse is followed by “But you were washed,you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God”, you know, all that stuff you are denying happens when one is saved.
As always, draw your own conclusions.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 12, 2021)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I’m not certain Paul was speaking ABOUT the Corinthians though he was speaking to them.



I have check into what scholars say of the Church of Corinth at the time. They seem to agree that specifically some of the believers were doing exactly what Paul was stating when he addressed them. If I understood correctly, some of the membership was  fraternizing  or continued also within practices of the pagan cults at the time which practice caused believers to sin according to the the sins Paul mentioned.

 It caused believers to sin against the flesh. But also according to my understanding Paul is writing to them ( the believers) and is talking about them, the believers and not the pagans. Some in the church  are adulterous and fornicators, simply and doubly. Not only did these cults cause people to be adulterous and fornicators in general or to commit sins of the flesh due simply from practice, but on a greater spiritual level it caused at least some of the saints at Corinth to be such that their sin was double. It was physical sin but also it was sin against the Holy Spirit which they were intimate with-- like we are.


The example in comparison for us that I might come-up-with would be that of a new believer who was previously into a satanic and pagan cult who returns periodically to it. This is the believer Paul was addressing.


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## StriperAddict (Feb 12, 2021)

As new babes in Jesus, old beliefs do run us amok at times.  "We all stumble in many ways". Paul was real about his own weaknesses and still insisted the power of God was evident then. The power of God being the gospel itself. 
A tender Father works within us to train our minds to believe, and even when we are without faith, those times are moments of His faithfulness, since He cannot deny Himself, nor the new covenant He made in agreement with Himself.

Heb 6:19-20
19 We have this hope as an _anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain_, 
20 where our forerunner, _Jesus, has entered on our behalf_. He has become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek. 

(_emphasis _mine)


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## gordon 2 (Feb 12, 2021)

Hey. StriperA. I see a painting in someone's hands--your avatar. You paint? And what time of yr  was it when the mountain scene was painted?  Was it painted while looking at a natural mountain scene?


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## gordon 2 (Feb 13, 2021)

StriperAddict said:


> As new babes in Jesus, old beliefs do run us amok at times.  "We all stumble in many ways". Paul was real about his own weaknesses and still insisted the power of God was evident then. The power of God being the gospel itself.
> A tender Father works within us to train our minds to believe, and even when we are without faith, those times are moments of His faithfulness, since He cannot deny Himself, nor the new covenant He made in agreement with Himself.
> 
> Heb 6:19-20
> ...




Let us not imagine worries to our finding brothers and sisters engaged in scripture or worship under the Levitical priesthood. We surely know to find these.

Instead let us follow the end to our tithes. These cannot be imagined. If we were to tithe to Jesus,  to whom would we hand over the money?

Since Jesus is at work "within us" do we tithe to ourselves? Or do we tithe to other ministers who assemble the people to worship and subject service and all to one Lord -- and to one eternal priesthood?

Who is  best witness to Melchizedek who is with the Father and in intervention into the world-- the Church where Christ is the Lord of all  or myself and _"my"_ Lord?

(emphasis mine)


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## gemcgrew (Feb 13, 2021)

gordon 2 said:


> Let us not imagine worries to our finding brothers and sisters engaged in scripture or worship under the Levitical priesthood. We surely know to find these.
> 
> Instead let us follow the end to our tithes. These cannot be imagined. If we were to tithe to Jesus,  to whom would we hand over the money?
> 
> ...


Believers don't tithe. Works religionist tithe.
Believers are not motivated by the law of the tithe. The believer's motivation is love of Christ.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 13, 2021)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I’m not certain Paul was speaking ABOUT the Corinthians believers though he was speaking to them. The very next verse says “And that is what you WERE.”  To a simpleton that would imply a distinction.  He’s not speaking about believers, but unbelievers, but that’s just what the text says.  Furthermore that verse is followed by “But you were washed,you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God”, you know, all that stuff you are denying happens when one is saved.
> As always, draw your own conclusions.





It is an indication that believers can return to their previous beliefs and practices after even being washed, sanctified and justified. It is an indication that Christians can return to paganism, to legalism, to the Levitical law in mindset... (<<<which is the worry of most here!)

Man can return to captivity from freedom...right? Otherwise what is all the fuss about. How many atheists do you know who had their genesis to bible believing Christianity or were scandalized by the sins of priests and ministers? How many!

If apostacy, a falling back, was not a possibility for Christians Paul would not have concerned himself with it regards the saints he ministered to. He would not have bothered with distinctions... But it was a worry for him. He was worried about the saints being bewitched... about returning to pagan practices and about  Judaizers and others the likes of which were preaching that the second coming had occurred. He was worried the effects these would have on the Church and on the saints.

Why would we recoil that some would say Jesus was an angel? Is it for hearing it, or that  is is from the mouth of a neighbor who  once worshiped with you?


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## gemcgrew (Feb 13, 2021)

gordon 2 said:


> It is an indication that believers can return to their previous beliefs and practices after even being washed, sanctified and justified. It is an indication that Christians can return to paganism, to legalism, to the Levitical law in mindset... (<<<which is the worry of most here!)
> 
> Man can return to captivity from freedom...right? Otherwise what is all the fuss about. How many atheists do you know who had their genesis to bible believing Christianity or were scandalized by the sins of priests and ministers? How many!
> 
> If apostacy, a falling back, was not a possibility for Christians Paul would not have concerned himself with it regards the saints he ministered to. He would not have bothered with distinctions... But it was a worry for him. He was worried about the saints being bewitched... about returning to pagan practices and about  Judaizers and others the likes of which were preaching that the second coming had occurred. He was worried the effects these would have on the Church.


"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Where do you find apostacy in this order?


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## Israel (Feb 13, 2021)

gordon 2 said:


> Ok Jesus after the cross choses none of his to betray God. Betrayal is impossible. We are completed as to salvation. But all have full inheritance within eternal life? It would seem that for sin we don't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I do not mean to sound facetious but you appear to say a mouthful here:



> The cross alone and a saved person left to his or her own device, does not cover the sins of that saved person, sin said present and future.



Is there a "mystery of iniquity"? Or some mystery in its working that is to be revealed? Or is. Or could be?

Is there a _device_ given, not our own, nor of our own choosing, which, by means of revelation...shows we have not been left (or forsaken?) to our own device(s)?

How _that tree_ works!

On the one hand employed by men to absolutely break a man, show a forced triumph of naked shame by its display of him as being nothing more than another bit of meat, a thing hung out for all to see "it" (the man) is of no effect against a pinioning. All of helpless, hopeless and ineffectual against the power of law in whose hands it is taken for enforcement. A terrible display to what is accused of disobedience...and no less to others who might consider following in some fashion.

It is almost as though it says "If you care or dare to take a shot at what you think you are or can do...this thing will sort you out plainly (even to yourself!) as to all your imagined ability. Go ahead..._if you must!_

Yet...God.

What man has appointed to the most brutal and shameful display...a reduction of man, God has also appointed to display. Every intended weakness (let the man who understands this proceed further...





> "For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God." 2 Cor 13:4


...yes, even that inclination to rebel at command) is here put away in the man who lives by the power of God.

(No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.)

None need receive this, of how I have been persuaded to view creation; and such of the creative process most men might be able to relate in _some measure. _There is an investment to creating anything. There is a _putting into _that the creator endures...be he painter, poet, author, even scientist...of self's constituents. Be they intellect, sensings, aesthetics and the like. Some can even be measured of life and time, as in "I poured my whole life into it". But, as we all know, that is merely hyperbole for a man to speak thus. The man at least ate, drank, and slept as well.

Yet God set out to make a thing like Himself. And such undertaking has at least a twofold wonder. And each _is a wonder. _The ability to create something equal to full self (what man has done this?)...but also that the aim is no less than "God" like.

And it becomes plain...only God could undertake such a thing. Yet, even then..."God"...like? Is that a hard thing for God...? Or is it the easiest thing...for God? No more nor less than any other? Is it easier to make a plum? A rock? A falcon? (I caught this morning's morning minion...)

But I am persuaded the sustaining has come at the cost known from the beginning, in that agreement made in God to "let us make man in our image, after our likeness..." (The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world). A man sets out to create not knowing...will this take a week, a month, a decade...to find a tungsten filament? God knows from the moment (if one can say they "exist" for God) of consideration...of all things pertaining to anything.

And so the revelation comes of bread and wine...given...each day...even to enemies of God in mind, even to traitors, day in, day out, year in year out, decades in and out...of what has been "laid down" to man to sustain him...until he might be made able to receive "who" is the bread and wine, so invested in their giving. 

If your enemy is hungry...feed him...(even the dullest of men knows/learns there is some cost to this). 
Ask me.

But...God can give this instruction, being the God of all hope.

I do not doubt yours or any of my brothers here knowledge of the scriptures, and I am surely the teacher of none. But we each have and have seen what we have and have ...seen.

I know of impetus, of motive...even when entirely unaware of what my own might be...I know I am being moved by something. Something that...even if hidden...is set for the revealing as all things are.

But I find two scriptures...two sayings in regards to being "like" that were once a tangle to me. The one in all my ignorance set me to a grasping, the other is bringing me to my knees, but regardless of their "effect" their truth is not reliant upon anything that might be seen in, or of me...for all their verity comes only from a certified mouth.

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. 
(And how I have grasped at that...the notion of being...and shown perfect!)

Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.


And they are not different.

And what is "different" is being acted upon in every saint. Even if I be shown...reprobate.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 13, 2021)

gemcgrew said:


> "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
> 
> Where do you find apostacy in this order?




Those He called like Abraham, He justified, and those He justified like Abraham he also glorified.  Moses which He called  were predestinated  to be justified and glorified. John the Baptist He called, He justified and glorified. And the apostles Jesus called? And through them did He call others and called that they were justified and they were glorified and yet turned to apostacy? Did David sin? Did Israel sin? Did Israel sin repeatedly and was another grafted on their tree?


Did those who inherit the promises made to Abraham, Moses and others  turn to apostacy? Did He call Israel? Did He justify Israel? Did He glorify Israel? Did Israel and some  of Israel turn to apostacy? What are the laments of the prophets which were killed? Who did the killing?

Judas who was equal to the others?

Those He predestinate to justification and glory is a  human view of the present from an assessment of the past. Judas who was like the others Peter tells--- is he glorified to us? Are the prophets? Are the apostles?


"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 13, 2021)

Israel said:


> I do not mean to sound facetious but you appear to say a mouthful here:
> 
> 
> *It is a mouthful indeed, but it is mindful also, and it is a genuine effort of my heart to be in the way. I knew it would be a mouthful to some minds when I wrote it. But what I wrote I had in consideration  understandings which seem accepted as the last word vs understanding that might be  overlooked. So yes it is a mouthful.*
> ...



*Amen.*


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## StriperAddict (Feb 13, 2021)

gordon 2 said:


> *I suggest to you that it states in scripture that it is the Church in prayer which has the power to cleanse a saint in default.*


... Not in the bible I read. (And could this been veiled for a specific reason? I find the true "veil" lifted in Christ, and take no personal boast of that reality)

So here is our great divide perhaps ... you suggest, or give the "Church" the power to forgive, which it can not ... in relation to man and his relationship to God, being cleansed of sin.

Sidebar ... To forgive _one another_, yes, we chose to do so because we have been totally forgiven (Ephesians 4:32), but to be clear this is not the point I believe you are making. Or is another meaning veiled in your writing?

If not, then you are putting far too much weight on the body of Christ (as institutional "church", or specific catholic/universal body of believers) to DO SOMETHING to grant what only Christ can freely give. I'm saddened for believers pulled along in such condemnation of a forgiving work now laid at their responsibility. In this theology, Christ has suffered in vain!

And now I understand that any message of the transforming work of the cross and resurrection, making sinners holy, clean, forgiven, complete in Christ, is anathema to your thinking. I find this "church power" doctrine to be intentionally veiled by many, and maybe yourself, for what reason only those adherents would know. 

For how can we, the body of believers in Christ, have such power and responsibility for the God-relational forgiveness of our fellow man?  

Yet for every child of God by faith in Christ, God makes them qualified to be a "minister" of the New Covenant. See 2 Cor 2:14 and 3:6.  We freely share this, but with NO HOPE that we have power to grant the forgiveness for which the New Covenant represents.  And should the gospel itself not be the power of God unto salvation and forgiveness of sin, then we all are lead to the co-responsibility slaughter of our souls.  


*Hebrews 8:12*
For I will be _merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more_.

Let us see clearly just Who is doing the doing, the God to mankind forgiving. 
He has made His yoke easy and burden light, and light enough for all to find.

Done.


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## gemcgrew (Feb 14, 2021)

StriperAddict said:


> Done.


"DO is one thing; DONE is quite another.  The former is legalism; that latter is Gospel." ~ Author Unknown


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## flintlock hunter (Feb 14, 2021)

I, guys, am a sinner, from birth, and everyday since. Man is a sinner, whose only hope is to reach out to THE CHRIST and ask for forgiveness everyday. Yes, Jesus is the SON of THE TRUE LIVING GOD, who fullfilled the purpose GOD sent him here to do, and his perfect life free from sin continues on, sitting at the right hand of GOD.

He said:
NO MAN MAY COME UNTO THE FATHER EXCEPT BY ME.
WHAT SOEVER YOU ASK OF THE FATHER IN MY NAME YOU WILL RECIEVE.
and WHO SOEVER BELIEVES IN ME SHALL NOT PERISH, BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE.

I firmly believe that no matter how hard we try to be as GOD would have us be, we still sin each day, often in ways we neither know, nor understand.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 14, 2021)

It goes without debate that only God forgives sin. However for sin to be forgiven conditions must be met by the individual asking for forgiveness. The individual must be in truth penitent. When Jesus teaches on the Galilean sinners ( Luke 13 :1-5) he teaches that to forgo the effects of sin one must be penitent.

There are two general instances where a person is penitent. One is excellent the other less so. In one case a sinner understands due his love towards God they have injured their relationship with God, and in fact have injured God, His will, his designs and suffer from severe guilt for it. On the other hand one can be penitent but see especially that the injury for sin is to one's self and one's own designs and selfish desires. The penitent in this case need not find themselves with guilt--but with the fear of missing out on some heavenly blessing. The injury was/is to himself or herself and not so much the guilt and sorrow of sinning against God.

Alone a penitent  left to his own devices can but exceptionally know to minister to which he or she is. In most cases we are selfish penitents toward God. In most cases we want to justify ourselves, to bless our selves in seeking forgiveness. We are " Why take a chance believers."

It is my understanding that only the Church can guide us to genuine penance-- to a will that we would sin no more due our love towards God-- and repentance inspired from God so that forgiveness from God is concrete.

Is the art of a saved person the asking in prayer for forgiveness for every breath they will take until  it stops? Jesus says do penance.

The prayers of the righteous are effective. In my case I let the church coach me in my prayers and in my penance for when I sin against God I cease to be righteous and justified. Much, much more is my glass darkened when I sin.


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## NoOne (Feb 14, 2021)

Contrasts between the Kingdom gospel and the gospel of the Grace of God


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## gemcgrew (Feb 14, 2021)

gordon 2 said:


> It goes without debate that only God forgives sin. However for sin to be forgiven conditions must be met by the individual asking for forgiveness. The individual must be in truth penitent. When Jesus teaches on the Galilean sinners ( Luke 13 :1-5) he teaches that to forgo the effects of sin one must be penitent.
> 
> There are two general instances where a person is penitent. One is excellent the other less so. In one case a sinner understands due his love towards God they have injured their relationship with God, and in fact have injured God, His will, his designs and suffer from severe guilt for it. On the other hand one can be penitent but see especially that the injury for sin is to one's self and one's own designs and selfish desires. The penitent in this case need not find themselves with guilt--but with the fear of missing out on some heavenly blessing. The injury was/is to himself or herself and not so much the guilt and sorrow of sinning against God.
> 
> ...


What a bunch of man-centered nonsense. All of the conditions were met by Christ... on the individual's behalf.


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## Israel (Feb 15, 2021)

I don't know how to quite get the sense of this over to anyone because the obvious difficulty with inadequacy of certain words. The shades of experience and their expression are different to each man...so, when I say this: 

"I am interested in salvation, but no longer very interested in my own salvation" 

I understand how that may be taken. Even the word _interest_ can sound cold and analytical, devoid of some emotional investment that I once considered quite essential but which over time has been shown to me of some in-utility in knowing Christ.
And, of course, to further state I have little interest or care for _my own _is an invitation quite seemingly extended to all accusation. Nevertheless, so be it. 

God knows whether I have a perverse desire to be called (or be much of anything, at all) reprobate, or whether I have learned that to bristle at that accusation in being unable to bear it, shows I have _over care (which is having any care, at all)_ of how I am viewed by my brothers. 

If a man has to yet _prove to himself_, or any other however, that _he has no fear,_ or even "has faith" he will find himself dominated by _that need to prove _and be led to all the necessary places by _that need_ through which the Lord can teach him the things of true necessity.

"The fear of man is a snare..." 

may be easily quoted but it takes on a far different depth when the man quoting it must include himself as _that man. _Therefore the man who may himself hold any fear of being "not believed" by the weight of a _need to prove himself _is brought to interesting encounters with fear until all is deposited rightly where it must. 

Jesus has promised_ to show, _and He does. 

But I will forewarn (show) you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into ****; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. 

And to whatever extent (for only He knows) he leads a man in this (even this man) the man may learn _being in_ the fear of the Lord is quite a bit different than being scared of God. 

But the man who wends his way through these matters of his soul...even to "What if God doesn't believe I believe?" may learn some _interesting things. _How that trying to prove anything to anyone (which if not starting with God...must ultimately end there so matters may be set aright) so that the very last "person" in our considerations...assumes His proper place in soul...as first and only.

This setting aright, upending all our interests and considerations...completely...I am persuaded is only accomplished in, and through, Jesus Christ.

Buy my saying that is more than a moot matter. Stating the obvious to those who, if they have tasted mercy, will not find it hard to forgive what may find to be any _even gross presumption_ in a man (even any man) who speaks.

If the matter of salvation does not deliver a man from any and all worry about _his own..._(as contrary as that sounds)...let him who wants no part of it learn what his part is. 

Any care I may have had as to being believed, yes...even "by" God (or some god I may have imagined _needs my convincing_) has been supplanted with a greater need for clarity. And I do believe Jesus leads us past the "gods many and lords many" we may have in mind ruling us till His light shines as all given from the only true Father.

It matters so little of bewilderment in a child as to be all of in-consequence, for this Father knows His own. And I know how easily the accusation must then come that in the saying a man is open to all of hearing "then you don't care about confusion?" 

It is only that a man might discover One whose "care" about it is so far greater to make Himself clear that almost any seeming contribution against it (confusion) while in the presence of His clarity is a clear demonstration of mercy and grace. That men are allowed...even given...to speak of Him. He who is always _most present_, He who alone is always _most clear. _Having no shadow in Himself.

So, to speak before God, of God...becomes quite an exercise...as though God need any man to speak for Him. 

Which is almost as funny as the expression "a good Christian".


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## gordon 2 (Feb 15, 2021)

I have never in all my efforts to be respectful to the forum participants gone at doctrine first in the discussion of a topic, but rather I have always strived to be biblical and explore our faith from "what scripture says". I welcome views that I can be out of context as you do, but I cannot entertain views that what Jesus said from his mouth when it comes from my key board it is man-centered  none sense.

I do not fight the prophets like they are my generals. I do not place my beliefs and understandings as if they were lords over me or that I would have them lords over others.

If I judge a brother, I do so with affection from this perhaps: Is he/she running a race with a prophet or Christ? Is there a mental and psychological intermediary between the self and God?  Is the heart hard, warm, cold, indifferent? Is the way the bible itself is used scriptural? Is the way the Church is used scriptural. Is the way faith is used scriptural?

And these first:

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor _can_ a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.


For these last:

24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.


26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

28 And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, 29 for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.


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## StriperAddict (Feb 15, 2021)

gordon 2 said:


> Hey. StriperA. I see a painting in someone's hands--your avatar. You paint? And what time of yr  was it when the mountain scene was painted?  Was it painted while looking at a natural mountain scene?


I'm coming back to oil painting after almost 30 years, thanks for asking. The Bob Ross method has been my go to, and I paint from suggestions from his own PBS tv videos with my own additional ideas. 
Father's majestic creation always my motivation


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## StriperAddict (Feb 15, 2021)

I confess that it's frustrating to see things added to what has it's own fulfillment in grace itself, _in Himself_. Christ the Lord, no other source. 
And I'm not always an apt sharer ... in that theres no other boast but in the cross.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 15, 2021)

StriperAddict said:


> I'm coming back to oil painting after almost 30 years, thanks for asking. The Bob Ross method has been my go to, and I paint from suggestions from his own PBS tv videos with my own additional ideas.
> Father's majestic creation always my motivation




Thanks for responding. I must say I have a great affection for painters. I like to encourage them when I can. Artists like saints are sometimes misunderstood to the extreme  and some might give up on themselves.

I was especially captured by the colors you are using in the painting re: avatar. I find them powerful emotionally. So my questions: Did you use the colors with emotion(s)in mind? Did you know that some artists although they are painting a scene-subject are purposely painting their emotions to " comment" on the subject scenery. The colors they paint on are the communication of "the matter and subject" of their works... etc.

I can give you the names of some artists that paint this way if you are interested. I will private message them if you would like such.

In any case the colors in your avatar talk to me more about your views  regards a nature scene than the fact that the subject might stand alone and make comment.

Keep painting... your painting might be a happy accident, but a painter might just be you.


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## gemcgrew (Feb 15, 2021)

gordon 2 said:


> I have never in all my efforts to be respectful to the forum participants gone at doctrine first in the discussion of a topic, but rather I have always strived to be biblical and explore our faith from "what scripture says".


We were discussing the forgiveness of sin. To not go first to the doctrine of Christ... is definitely an issue.



gordon 2 said:


> I welcome views that I can be out of context as you do, but I cannot entertain views that what Jesus said from his mouth when it comes from my key board it is man-centered  none sense.


Nobody is suggesting that what Jesus said is man-centered nonsense. Your understanding/interpretation of what Jesus said is another matter.


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## Israel (Feb 16, 2021)

If the apostle's teaching includes this (does it include this?):

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

then surely we have entered that place where (we know!) only God can help us through Christ.

And that becomes another matter (or is it the same matter?)
How is it that God helps us through Christ (and His anointing)?

If you can...

One man rejects saying "It is all paradoxical and irreconcilable and therefore rubbish and not to be received!"


As in the above...an apostle (a man) is teaching...that those to whom he writes (do we doubt that when he says "brethren" ...he means the church?) do not need any man to teach them. Did that man...need to teach that? Or is that man confirming to them what they (and _he is convinced, _is he not?) already know...the only reliance can be upon the anointing of God in Christ?

Another man is made able to receive what (only) appears paradox, having a convincing that that itself, the very _appearance of paradox, _is often more indicative of truth...and even made so in experience.

But who can follow here? For not every _apparent_ paradox indicates truth anymore than _apparent_ consistency does. (Or does not, ha!)

Of course then, we are delivered to that place where only God can reconcile!
To where appearances are shown true (in His appearing)...or rebuked...by that One, in that One, in whom God's reconciling is accomplished.

As far as truth...CS Lewis said something (not found in the scripture of chapter and verse, yet _surely found in the scripture!_) in regards to this "experience".

*



			“Reality, in fact, is usually something you could not have guessed. That is one of the reasons I believe Christianity. It is a religion you could not have guessed. If it offered us just the kind of universe we had always expected, I should feel we were making it up. But, in fact, it is not the sort of thing anyone would have made up. It has just that queer twist about it that real things have. So let us leave behind all these boys' philosophies--these over simple answers. The problem is not simple and the answer is not going to be simple either.”
		
Click to expand...

*
*Now, despite all the points at which we might contend (and I find a few) I am convinced this man was set of God "onto something". *

*Particularly as to the nature of "reality" (as he calls it). Is it too much a stretch to say he is speaking of "what is true?" (I cannot resist any accusation of over-stretching even should I want to)*

*But...did he need to tell anyone "in Christ" that? I doubt it heartily. Have any of us not been surprised to discover "how things are" at very particular times? Who doesn't have that testimony? The light revealing things far more wondrous than could have ever been imagined? Things as they are, not at all as they seem?*

*Who?*

*And more, yes, with far more than might be said.*

*But who is made ready?*

*Who can live there? Made able to live there...where every notion is on the table, every thought and intent of the heart set only to be divided asunder, exposed to light...a very real vivisection? Some for absolute discard as rubbish and others to encouragement...and the man does not know the disposition until it is made.*

*And there finding a true actor (not reactor) wielding the blade? *

*Set always...to His always work.*


*"This is the work of God, that you believe upon Him whom He has sent"*

*The simplest thing I have ever been told is to believe the One who never lies. *

*Is that hard? Or easy?*

*Is it simple? Or is it not?*

*As I perceive the work done to make a man able...was it hard? Or easy?*

*I just know I did not...and could not have done it. Easy or hard.*




*Poems are made by fools, that's true*

*But only God can make a Jew.*


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## StriperAddict (Feb 16, 2021)

gordon 2 said:


> Thanks for responding. I must say I have a great affection for painters. I like to encourage them when I can. Artists like saints are sometimes misunderstood to the extreme  and some might give up on themselves.
> 
> I was especially captured by the colors you are using in the painting re: avatar. I find them powerful emotionally. So my questions: Did you use the colors with emotion(s)in mind? Did you know that some artists although they are painting a scene-subject are purposely painting their emotions to " comment" on the subject scenery. The colors they paint on are the communication of "the matter and subject" of their works... etc.
> 
> ...


Thanks. The soul is certainly involved aka mind, will and emotions. My intentions are the beauty of creation with Hope's that the goodness of God is reflected. I'd never be an abstract artist since such would and could veil the intent of beauty. 
I have much growth left in the realm of painting not unlike the growth I need in understanding the intentional abundant goodness in my creator. 
I would enjoy a discussion in another post on the joy(s) of painting, as my soft spoken mentor Bob Ross would put it. This so as not to distract from the discussion at hand, although that my acknowledgement of Fathers love and total forgiveness gives me thankfulness in pursuit of painting. Yes, artistry ... in the free rhythms of His grace.
Thanks again.


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## gemcgrew (Feb 16, 2021)

Israel said:


> If the apostle's teaching includes this (does it include this?):
> 
> But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
> 
> then surely we have entered that place where (we know!) only God can help us through Christ.


"As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, _so_ walk ye in him:"

This is where the believer walks in perfect forgiveness of sin and where the believer's conscience is not defiled.


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