# Assurance of Salvation



## barryl

I have read on the " Do you have to be good thread" , people throwing out their op's on what they think, well, it's not what you or I think. It's what does the LORD say !!! It was answered in the first posts after the thread started. Next,it turned into a loss of salvation thread. Now I know where I'm going when I die and you can too!!! Heres the simple answer, do you trust GOD and take his word for it, or not ? I'm not relying on my op, I'm relying on Gods word. Are you calling God a liar, you are if you say he does'nt mean what he says, KJV 1611 AV, Num. 23:19 God is not a man,that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? Now, just stop and think about this a while, Romans and Gal. covers salvation[doctrine] I would also reccommend studying up on the doctrines of Sanctification,Justification, Regeneration, Adoption, and Imputation as well as all the other "tions". This is not Modern Doctrine, it can be traced all the way back to Antioch !! Learn to rightly divide the word of God 2 Tim. 2:15 Don't run to Matt. 5,6,7,24, or 25, Hebrews 6 or 10, Acts 2 or James 2 and last but not least Gal. or Rev. to refute, rightly divide and take God at his word. I know the truth is never popular John 17:17


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## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> ... well, it's not what you or I think. It's what does the LORD say !!!



Actually, it's "what does the Lord _mean_".  As St. Hilary of Poitiers once said, "scripture is not in the reading, it's in the understanding".

Differences in Christian beliefs stem from differences in understanding (amongst other things.)


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## Artfuldodger

I'll run to Luke ,                   Luke 12:46
The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
                                             Luke 8:13
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

The sins that you commit AFTER baptism are the ones that are not paid for. When you accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, your sins are washed clean. No need for redemption for anything you have done in the past. Now, that does not apply to things you might do in the FUTURE, there is only one Baptism, so a 2nd Baptism later in life is not possible. To stay in the Grace of God we need Redemption if we sin after Baptism.

For the OSAS to be true, you would have to believe that you can be Baptized at age 12, live your next 80 years sinning every day, Break all of the commandments every day, for 80 years, never repent, never Pray, never attend Church, never do any good for anyone, then die and go straight to Heaven. If you can accept that, you can accept the OSAS Theology.


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## StriperAddict

Artfuldodger said:


> When you accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, your sins are washed clean. No need for redemption for anything you have done in the past. Now, that does not apply to things you might do in the FUTURE


 
This is wrong on so many levels.  The main one being we "got saved by grace, but we need to live by law to keep it". At least that's what the above seems to say.  Correct me if I got that wrong, but if not, good grief, no wonder the church of Christ is powerless!!  They start in grace/the Spirit, and then live in the power of "themselves" to keep grace!
"Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected by the flesh (or law?)"??

Sorry, saved by grace and kept by grace is brought to mankind by only one final sacrifice by the Lord Jesus.  
Should I sin again after my salvation (which I and you and every believer has done), we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, who must needs NEVER die again, and since we are "crucified" with Him, we will never die again _*spiritually*_ either.

And as to the nonsense about the sinning like a truck driver after grace... well, each believer was born again with a new nature, that nature, the new man, never wants to go against the will of God ever again. Check Romans 7 on that... that chapter is where Paul found out where the power of sin still resides (on our bodies) , and where the victory resides, in our soul and spirit... made perfect by the One offering of the body and blood of Christ, once for all!

If our future sins have to be "paid for" again, that makes a mockery of that one time death and resurrection of the Lord, because the scriptures teach us clearly that our past, present and future sins were ALL covered at the cross; Jesus can never die again.

Also see Rom 6: 1,2.


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## Artfuldodger

But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. (2 Pet 1:9)

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins (Col 2:13)
All our sins were forgiven in a moment’s time when we got born again. If a Christian is afterwards deceived or yields to the devil’s temptations to sin, the following is given as a remedy:
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)

When a Christian sins, we ask for forgiveness.


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## barryl

A. D., Luke 12:46 lord or servant, not applicable to you or me with a shoe horn !!! 2nd paragraph, Baptism? Acts 2:38 or 2:4, not nice !! 3rd paragraph, Eph. 2:8-10, and one of your fav"s 1 Tim. 2:5 now go study Imputation{Doctrine} 2 Tim. 2:15-learn to study.     Cp, point taken, but I hold in my hands the very word of God, thats my final authority !!


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## Artfuldodger

But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into -He11. (Mat 5:28,29)
Could this person above be a Christian?

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. (Mat 6:14,15)
But how is this possible, Jesus died on the cross for my sins. My future sins are already forgiven.

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. (Heb 10:26, 27)

Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. (Luke 13:24)


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## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> A. D., Luke 12:46 lord or servant, not applicable to you or me with a shoe horn !!! 2nd paragraph, Baptism? Acts 2:38 or 2:4, not nice !! 3rd paragraph, Eph. 2:8-10, and one of your fav"s 1 Tim. 2:5 now go study Imputation{Doctrine} 2 Tim. 2:15-learn to study.     Cp, point taken, but I hold in my hands the very word of God, thats my final authority !!



I'll study Imputation and you are right 1 Tim. 2:5 is one of my favorites.


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## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> ... I hold in my hands the very word of God, thats my final authority !!



... as do we all, but you can look through any of the threads on:

OSAS 
baptism 
free will 
tongues
alcohol
Freemasonry

... and see that everybody is using that same final authority to argue different positions.


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## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> A. D., Luke 12:46 lord or servant, not applicable to you or me with a shoe horn !!! 2nd paragraph, Baptism? Acts 2:38 or 2:4, not nice !! 3rd paragraph, Eph. 2:8-10, and one of your fav"s 1 Tim. 2:5 now go study Imputation{Doctrine} 2 Tim. 2:15-learn to study.     Cp, point taken, but I hold in my hands the very word of God, thats my final authority !!



I wasn't Baptised as in Acts 2:38 but if one receives the Holy Spirit why do I need the gift of "tongues?


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## hobbs27

centerpin fan said:


> Actually, it's "what does the Lord _mean_".  As St. Hilary of Poitiers once said, "scripture is not in the reading, it's in the understanding".
> 
> Differences in Christian beliefs stem from differences in understanding (amongst other things.)



 Nailed it again Centerpin...You seem to be the voice of reason on these threads.


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## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> Actually, it's "what does the Lord _mean_".  As St. Hilary of Poitiers once said, "scripture is not in the reading, it's in the understanding".
> 
> Differences in Christian beliefs stem from differences in understanding (amongst other things.)



What does the Lord say or what does the Lord mean is the same thing. The Lord means what he says.
I agree it's the differences in understanding but how do we reconcile these differences? Could we somehow reconcile the original church?
We could all reunite to the Orthodox Church or whatever the original Church is.
Perhaps we could have a new council at Nicaea.


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## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> A. D., Luke 12:46 lord or servant, not applicable to you or me with a shoe horn !!! 2nd paragraph, Baptism? Acts 2:38 or 2:4, not nice !! 3rd paragraph, Eph. 2:8-10, and one of your fav"s 1 Tim. 2:5 now go study Imputation{Doctrine} 2 Tim. 2:15-learn to study.     Cp, point taken, but I hold in my hands the very word of God, thats my final authority !!



Barryl, i've been studying Imputation and it is an interesting concept of looking at salvation like accounting if you will. We are born with a debt(sin), our account is wiped clean(cross), and our account is given a credit.
The credit part, naturally is what i'm having trouble with.
Can you list some verses about this credit?


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## 1gr8bldr

Assurance is a matter of faith. If you doubt, you are essentially asking Jesus to come back and die again for you. He died "once" and he is coming back, but not to do it over for those who doubt, but to take with him those who are his. See Heb 6:6, 9:28. But is faith blind? No, faith comes from a careful evaluation. Do you trust your own merit? or would you rather take hold of the hope held out in the gospel. "How shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation".


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## JB0704

hobbs27 said:


> Nailed it again Centerpin...You seem to be the voice of reason on these threads.



....or sarcasm, depending on the day


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## barryl

*Doctrine*



Artfuldodger said:


> Barryl, i've been studying Imputation and it is an interesting concept of looking at salvation like accounting if you will. We are born with a debt(sin), our account is wiped clean(cross), and our account is given a credit.
> The credit part, naturally is what i'm having trouble with.
> Can you list some verses about this credit?


The book of Romans and Gal.


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## Ronnie T

I've always been amazed at some people's/group's preoccupation with this subject.  
It certainly wasn't a subject that any of the apostles or disciples taught in book of Acts.  
The subject itself is not taught in Romans or any of the other writings.
OSAS is a phrase I never ever speak or hear until I get on this forum.  I don't study it in the Bible, and I don't need it to find comfort and assurance of my own salvation.
Jesus is the Lord of my life, that's why I know I'm going to heaven.

"Assurance of Salvation??"  Someplace in America tonight, there's bound to be small groups of people gathered together, drinking, using drugs, dealing with hangovers, etc.  At some point they'll get into a discussion of God and religion.  At least a few of them, thought they've never even accepted Jesus as their Lord, will claim they are "certain" they are 'as saved as anybody else'.  
Your "assurance" means nothing to God unless it's based upon Christ as your Lord.
Remember what Jesus said:  "Not all who say unto me Lord Lord will enter into the kingdom of God, but he that......... what now, what did he say?..... You know what he said.

No one will ever enter heaven because they worked themselves there.
No one will ever be in heaven because of OSASed.

They'll be there because Jesus was the Lord of their life and they had become His disciple.


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## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> The book of Romans and Gal.



Specifically???????


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## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> The book of Romans and Gal.



Here's a good one from Gal.  (Speaking to Christians)

Galatians 5:4: 'You are separated from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by Law, you have fallen from grace."


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## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> Nailed it again Centerpin...You seem to be the voice of reason on these threads.



Aw, shucks. 




JB0704 said:


> ....or sarcasm, depending on the day



Sarcasm is reason's evil twin.


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## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> For the OSAS to be true, you would have to believe that you can be Baptized at age 12, live your next 80 years sinning every day, Break all of the commandments every day, for 80 years, never repent, never Pray, never attend Church, never do any good for anyone, then die and go straight to Heaven.



That is about the worst description of OSAS I think I've ever read.



Ronnie T said:


> I've always been amazed at some people's/group's preoccupation with this subject.
> It certainly wasn't a subject that any of the apostles or disciples taught in book of Acts.
> The subject itself is not taught in Romans or any of the other writings.
> OSAS is a phrase I never ever speak or hear until I get on this forum. I don't study it in the Bible, and I don't need it to find comfort and assurance of my own salvation.
> Jesus is the Lord of my life, that's why I know I'm going to heaven.




Doctrine is important to discuss RonnieT.  If it isn't taught or discussed, you end up with spiritual babes who are immature and open to being swept away by false teachers.

And...as far as Acts goes, Doctrine was brought up.  Look at chapter 15.  Didn't take long for a division about how works play a part in Salvation to come up.

Also, why was I John written?


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## barryl

*Here you Go*



Ronnie T said:


> Specifically???????[Take a deep breath, SOTERIOLOGY- Doctrine of Salvation      Romans ch. 1-5   If you need more refer to thread start./QUOTE]


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## barryl

*Context*



Ronnie T said:


> Here's a good one from Gal.  (Speaking to Christians)
> 
> Galatians 5:4: 'You are separated from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by Law, you have fallen from grace."[I'll go ahead and remind you to RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF GOD 2 tim. 2:15. Here we go, you who attempt to be JUSTIFIED BY LAW. Problem- mingling grace and Law, read the whole Chapter and put it in its proper context. A text without a context is a pretext. If you read a little further, Gal. 5:9 is a good'un too.  By the way, what person in their right mind would want Salvation, if they could'nt be ASSURED of it !!!!!!! Sounds like a PRIDE thing to me!!! /QUOTE]


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## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> I've always been amazed at some people's/group's preoccupation with this subject.
> It certainly wasn't a subject that any of the apostles or disciples taught in book of Acts.
> The subject itself is not taught in Romans or any of the other writings.
> OSAS is a phrase I never ever speak or hear until I get on this forum. le.



There's always going to be some kind of subject or doctrine that denominations will hang their hats on to justify themselves of being "Gods true people".
I never heard of Osas either....cause I never heard anyone dispute it until the Pentecostal movement grew and made its way in my area.To me the idea of losing salvation is relatively new, and I don't read about it in the Bible, and the saints of old that I have read and studied their insight to Gods word..I never found where they address the idea either way.
I strongly believe that Once you are born into Gods kingdom you are a new creature forever....but I can worship with and love my brothers and sisters that think they can lose that....as I tell my buddy that believes that way, I don't care how many times you nuts have to be saved as long as you get it right at least once.


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## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> Ronnie T said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a good one from Gal.  (Speaking to Christians)
> 
> Galatians 5:4: 'You are separated from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by Law, you have fallen from grace."[I'll go ahead and remind you to RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF GOD 2 tim. 2:15. Here we go, you who attempt to be JUSTIFIED BY LAW. Problem- mingling grace and Law, read the whole Chapter and put it in its proper context. A text without a context is a pretext. If you read a little further, Gal. 5:9 is a good'un too.  By the way, what person in their right mind would want Salvation, if they could'nt be ASSURED of it !!!!!!! Sounds like a PRIDE thing to me!!! /QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't mind discussing the entire chapter with you if we live near enough to meet.
> The Galation Christians are being invaded by false teachers and some in the church are falling for their teachings.
> 
> Born again, believing, Christians were being drawn into trusting in circumcision of the LAW as salvation.  Rather than trusting in Jesus, they were trusting in "THE LAW" again.
> 
> Chap 5 is a high point in Paul's teachings to them in this letter.
> In verse 4 Paul says that for any of them to attempt to be justified by the Law will separate them from Christ and they will thereby fall from grace.
> 
> *Note:  A special calling by you to me for me to rightly divide the word will not prove you right and me wrong.
> Let's discuss scripture.
> 
> And I can promise you that I'm not a person filled with pride.  Oops, I guess that proves that I am.  I got sins and shortcomings that I'd rather not share.  I don't have a lot of confidence in myself, but I do in the One who's perfect.
Click to expand...


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## barryl

*History*



hobbs27 said:


> There's always going to be some kind of subject or doctrine that denominations will hang their hats on to justify themselves of being "Gods true people".
> I never heard of Osas either....cause I never heard anyone dispute it until the Pentecostal movement grew and made its way in my area.To me the idea of losing salvation is relatively new, and I don't read about it in the Bible, and the saints of old that I have read and studied their insight to Gods word..I never found where they address the idea either way.
> I strongly believe that Once you are born into Gods kingdom you are a new creature forever....but I can worship with and love my brothers and sisters that think they can lose that....as I tell my buddy that believes that way, I don't care how many times you nuts have to be saved as long as you get it right at least once.[It goes back to 1901 Topeka, Kansas or 1905 Azusa St. Mission !! Good post Hobbs/QUOTE]


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## centerpin fan

barryl, you gotta learn to use that quote function.  You're leaving off the "[" in front of the "/QUOTE]". 

OK, after rereading your post, you didn't leave it off.  You've just got it in the wrong place:

[It goes back to 1901 Topeka, Kansas or 1905 Azusa St. Mission !! Good post Hobbs/QUOTE]


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## barryl

Sorry CP, I'll get it right eventually


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## centerpin fan

No need to apologize.  It just makes it hard to distinguish what you said from what you're quoting.


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## gordon 2

Hum. There is perhaps in general two readings of the same scipture that will give different meaning.

If one reads from the perspective of this-for-that, -t'it-for-tat, cause and effect---one gets a meaning in keeping with the reading, or a this-for-that meaning.

If one reads from the perspective of grace for grace, or this for this, a meaning will be different than the above meaning.

The same sun shines, the same light lights up differently these two different worlds.

Perhaps.

Luke 1:18-20

And Zacharias said to the angel, "How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is well advanced in years." 



And the angel answered and said to him, "I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and was sent to speak to you and bring you these glad tidings. But behold, you will be mute and not able to speak until the day these things take place, because you did not believe my words which will be fulfilled in their own time."

-----

And there was another Zacharius who climbed a tree.


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## Artfuldodger

I never heard of OSAS or the elect growing up in a Baptist Church. My sister believes in OSAS. I reckon the whole world believes in OSAS except me and Ronnie. I was taught that I was responsible for my own actions. I was taught that God would Punish me if I did wrong. It kept me in line knowing God would punish me. If i had believed in OSAS as a teenager, wow!
This was a Southern Baptist Church but most of my beliefs were from my Mom as it was her job to do the child rearing. She wasn't allowed to wear shorts, play cards, say "I swear" or "you're lying", etc. growing up. Her grandparents raised her and the went to New Hope Baptist Church in Ambrose, Georgia.
It's weird to me how whole belief systems can change & evolve over time. I wonder if the members of New Hope follow my Great Grandparents beliefs.


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## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> I reckon the whole world believes in OSAS except me and Ronnie.



Not quite.  The "non-OSAS" group is pretty big.


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## centerpin fan

*Reminds me of this hymn*

Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine!
Oh, what a foretaste of glory divine!
Heir of salvation, purchase of God,
Born of His Spirit, washed in His blood.

Refrain:

This is my story, this is my song,
Praising my Savior all the day long;
This is my story, this is my song,
Praising my Savior all the day long.

Perfect submission, perfect delight,
Visions of rapture now burst on my sight;
Angels, descending, bring from above
Echoes of mercy, whispers of love.

Perfect submission, all is at rest,
I in my Savior am happy and blest,
Watching and waiting, looking above,
Filled with His goodness, lost in His love.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I never heard of OSAS or the elect growing up in a Baptist Church. My sister believes in OSAS. I reckon the whole world believes in OSAS except me and Ronnie.



It doesn't really matter, while you guys try to live the best you can to maintain your salvation... we try to live the best we can to maintain obedience to our Father.

Two things I've never got a straight answer on from folks that believe in salvation coming and going though is,

1.If we are saved by grace which is an undeserving love, How can we become too undeserving of grace?

2.God doesn't make mistakes, so why would he apply the blood of Christ to you...knowing he's just going to have to take it away?

I suspect you guys look to examples of those that have confessed Christ, yet haven't truly recieved him. I've heard numerous testimonies of people that have been decieved by man.Whether they have been drug down to an altar, told to repeat a prayer, or sign a card...Later on in their life God called and they answered truly, and got it right.
 Many probably took the word of man they were saved, and went on to live without Christ...Those are the ones I suspect you think lost their salvation for they are living in the world. That's just my opinion, and for myself I will continue praying, reading, and asking for the Holy Spirit to guide the way for my understanding.


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## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine!
> Oh, what a foretaste of glory divine!
> Heir of salvation, purchase of God,
> Born of His Spirit, washed in His blood.
> 
> Refrain:
> 
> This is my story, this is my song,
> Praising my Savior all the day long;
> This is my story, this is my song,
> Praising my Savior all the day long.
> 
> Perfect submission, perfect delight,
> Visions of rapture now burst on my sight;
> Angels, descending, bring from above
> Echoes of mercy, whispers of love.
> 
> Perfect submission, all is at rest,
> I in my Savior am happy and blest,
> Watching and waiting, looking above,
> Filled with His goodness, lost in His love.



One of my favorites, use to sing it alot growing up. My beliefs have also changed/evolved over time. I still like the song though. Now, thanks to you, i'll think about this next time I sing it. (No hard feelings)


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> It doesn't really matter, while you guys try to live the best you can to maintain your salvation... we try to live the best we can to maintain obedience to our Father.
> 
> Two things I've never got a straight answer on from folks that believe in salvation coming and going though is,
> 
> 1.If we are saved by grace which is an undeserving love, How can we become too undeserving of grace?
> 
> 2.God doesn't make mistakes, so why would he apply the blood of Christ to you...knowing he's just going to have to take it away?



I'll have to think about question #1, but #2 is: If God doesn't make any mistakes and died for everyone, why are some people still going to He11? That wasn't an answer to #2, ok let me try again: Salvation is a gift from God. God will never ask for his gift back. Short answer: You can give it back. Why? Freewill. You have "Blessed Assurance" if you want it.


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## NE GA Pappy

hobbs27 said:


> It doesn't really matter, while you guys try to live the best you can to maintain your salvation... we try to live the best we can to maintain obedience to our Father.
> 
> Two things I've never got a straight answer on from folks that believe in salvation coming and going though is,
> 
> 1.If we are saved by grace which is an undeserving love, How can we become too undeserving of grace?
> 
> 2.God doesn't make mistakes, so why would he apply the blood of Christ to you...knowing he's just going to have to take it away?
> 
> I suspect you guys look to examples of those that have confessed Christ, yet haven't truly recieved him. I've heard numerous testimonies of people that have been decieved by man.Whether they have been drug down to an altar, told to repeat a prayer, or sign a card...Later on in their life God called and they answered truly, and got it right.
> Many probably took the word of man they were saved, and went on to live without Christ...Those are the ones I suspect you think lost their salvation for they are living in the world. That's just my opinion, and for myself I will continue praying, reading, and asking for the Holy Spirit to guide the way for my understanding.



I have heard this definition my whole life..... unmerited favor.... but I have come to the conclusion it is probably the worst definition you can use for grace.  All of God's gifts to us are undeserved love, or unmerited favor. 

Did I deserve to be saved? No.  Healed? no. My health? no. There is no gift from God that I deserve.

Mike Franklin probably has the best definition of grace I have heard.

Grace = God's power in me, doing for me, what I can not do for myself.

Just a thought......


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## Artfuldodger

Those following the Arminian Theological position base their belief that a person that was once saved can later fall from grace and lose that salvation. Among major groups that follow this teaching are the Weslyans, the Methodists, and the Nazarenes. I thought Baptist were Arminian.

2 Peter 1:10 states, "Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble.

They believe you must practise the "Christian Life". Goodbye Baptist, Hello Methodist. Uh-oh, they don't dunk. Still looking.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> I suspect you guys look to examples of those that have confessed Christ, yet haven't truly recieved him.



This is actually one of you guys reasonings. If a Christians goes off the deep end and rapes or murders someone, then he was never a Christian. This is a form of OSAS Lite Edition:

OSAS Lite

I call it "Lite" as a tongue in cheek kind of joke regarding to popular beers and alchohols, it still causes a drunken stupor, but with half the calories! This version teaches that a person is saved forever just by their little moment of faith, however, if they commit heinous sinful acts, then they were never really saved to begin with. The OSAS Lite crowd has the same cookie-cutter answers to just about every verse used to refute them. Usually their sneaky way out when I confront them on people backsliding, or falling into evil, turning from God etc. is to answer something along the lines of "They were never saved to begin with, or they wouldn't have done [evil deed] but once a person is really saved, then they can never become unsaved and will never [evil deed] for the rest of their life." It's very clever, but not irrefutable, here are the verses that the OSAS Lite folks cannot answer:....

http://www.thejesuscommandment.com/osas.html


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## Ronnie T

Without quoting a lot of scriptures, please let me share my perspective as a person who does not subscribe to 'once saved always saved'.

I believe every Christian should be able to have confidence in their salvation.  No disciple of Christ should ever go to bed at night worried that their salvation has been taken away. Committing sin will certainly not seperate a person from Christ, for Christ will forgive our sins.  If a person is seeking Christ, they should probably have assurance of salvation.

Now, I can only speak for myself, because I cannot know the heart or history of any other person.
I cannot tell you if I've ever known any person who was once saved but has now lost it.  No person is my servant so I freely allow God to make those calls.  So I cannot tell you if I've ever met someone who was once saved, but now isn't.  I don't know those things.

I know people who were at one time faithful to the Lord's church, but have now destroyed their marriage, childrens lives and their own lives.  They now live horrible lives.  They are horrible people.  I don't know if they were ever truly saved, or if they will return to the Lord before death.  Not my job.

When I read and study the Bible(in context, rightly divided) I find at least two places where Jew's became Christians, enjoyed the grace found in Jesus, experienced the heavenly gifts that are found in Jesus, but then turned back to their old Jewish beliefs and stopped believing in the grace and mercy of Jesus.  The Bible writer states that, for those of them who have turned away from the grace of Jesus, their remains no more hope for them.

I also believe the Bible tells me that God has left me with the power to make decisions.  And one of the greatest decisions he has left to me is my decision to love Him forever.  God will not make that decision for me, and God will not force me to make that continual decision.  God wants it to be my decision.  He wants my free love and devotion.

That "Love" comes from me, everything else is only possible through God's touch in my life.

I don't live for Christ so that I can earn my way to heaven.
I don't live for Christ so that I can pay Christ back.

I live for Christ because I've become His disciple, and He lives in me.

I would never want someone to die and go to hel l because they 'thought' they got saved 30 years ago and today they read about 'once saved always saved'.

People like me don't believe a person earns their way to heaven.  You get to heaven by knowing the landlord.


----------



## fish hawk

Artfuldodger said:


> This was a Southern Baptist Church but most of my beliefs were from my Mom as it was her job to do the child rearing. She wasn't allowed to wear shorts, play cards, say "I swear" or "you're lying", etc. growing up. Her grandparents raised her and the went to New Hope Baptist Church in Ambrose, Georgia.


Funny....I grew up in Ambrose and lived right around the corner from the church.


----------



## StriperAddict

The subject of the law has come up in this thread, and I believe it could help this discussion again.  Allow my puny brain a question to believers here:

When you are tempted with sin, coveting/lust, for example, do you...

make the choice not to sin _because the bible says not to?_

or do you...

make the choice not to sin _because you are free?_


----------



## Artfuldodger

fish hawk said:


> Funny....I grew up in Ambrose and lived right around the corner from the church.



Nice little town, I've got a lot of family buried at New Hope, they migrated down from Upson County.


----------



## CollinsCraft77

You guys make this pretty complex. I find it simple. My son does not stop being my son when he does wrong. He is still my son and he gets disciplined. Now I love him and he could run away and I never see him again. He will still be my son and I will still and always love him. Now I am just a man. Imperfect. But my love for my boy is constant.

How much more so with God? He may chastise, etc. but nothing, and I mean nothing shall pluck them out of his hand.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> This is actually one of you guys reasonings. If a Christians goes off the deep end and rapes or murders someone, then he was never a Christian. This is a form of OSAS Lite Edition:
> 
> OSAS Lite
> 
> I call it "Lite" as a tongue in cheek kind of joke regarding to popular beers and alchohols, it still causes a drunken stupor, but with half the calories! This version teaches that a person is saved forever just by their little moment of faith, however, if they commit heinous sinful acts, then they were never really saved to begin with. The OSAS Lite crowd has the same cookie-cutter answers to just about every verse used to refute them. Usually their sneaky way out when I confront them on people backsliding, or falling into evil, turning from God etc. is to answer something along the lines of "They were never saved to begin with, or they wouldn't have done [evil deed] but once a person is really saved, then they can never become unsaved and will never [evil deed] for the rest of their life." It's very clever, but not irrefutable, here are the verses that the OSAS Lite folks cannot answer:....
> 
> http://www.thejesuscommandment.com/osas.html



At the end of this link you provided the guy suggests those that believe as I do are not Real Christians....
Ive read your posts and felt the spirit in your words, and I don't suggest you are not a Real Christian for your beliefs, but some that believe in Salvation just coming and going, I wonder sometimes if they aren't trying to do the impossible by attempting to live free of sin just to prove to themselves they are saved.
 The night Jesus saved me, I was twelve years old and let me tell you...There's no question as to what happened.It was the most spiritual experience I've ever had...I don't think experiences like that just come and go...I fear some that are trying to live it to prove to themselves are lacking something...Too many folks are being misled by being drug down to altars, told to just repeat this prayer, or sign this card..or just confess Jesus....I wish the whole world could share with me what Jesus gave to me that night!


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> At the end of this link you provided the guy suggests those that believe as I do are not Real Christians....
> Ive read your posts and felt the spirit in your words, and I don't suggest you are not a Real Christian for your beliefs, but some that believe in Salvation just coming and going, I wonder sometimes if they aren't trying to do the impossible by attempting to live free of sin just to prove to themselves they are saved.
> The night Jesus saved me, I was twelve years old and let me tell you...There's no question as to what happened.It was the most spiritual experience I've ever had...I don't think experiences like that just come and go...I fear some that are trying to live it to prove to themselves are lacking something...Too many folks are being misled by being drug down to altars, told to just repeat this prayer, or sign this card..or just confess Jesus....I wish the whole world could share with me what Jesus gave to me that night!



I don't agree with everything the guy was saying in the link. It was just provided for reference.I've heard preachers say certain denominations weren't real Christians because they were baptised wrong etc. I personally would never try to guess anyones salvation let alone say whether they are a Christian or not.
Please forgive me if I come across as doing that.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I went back and re-read his closing statements. I would say he went overboard with some of his remarks.


----------



## barryl

*Trust and Pride*

From the top, Do you trust in the FINISHED work of the Lord Jesus Christ ? Before you answer,take a few minutes to study the doctrines of Salvation{Soteriology} Adoption{changed position}, Regeneration { a changed nature},Justification {a changed standing}, sanctification{a changed character}, Imputation{sinner is charged with Christ's righteousness and Jesus Christ is charged with his sins}. If you ever get hold of these things you will never doubt your salvation. You will know the difference between a charasmatic experience or feeling and Bible regeneration. You will know when a man is lying to you when he is quoting the Scripture or when a man is trying to decieve you by quoting Scripture. Work of Righteuosness Isaiah 32:17 KJV 1611 AV Do you trust  Gods perfect righteuosness, The Lord Jesus Christ, or are you trusting your own selfrighteousness ? Only two knows, you and God !! Its been mentioned earlier that assurance does'nt mean much to God, go ask him, I believe you will find out whether it does or not !! Now go and get alone with God, get it worked out with him and his son 2 Cor. 5:21  KJV 1611 AV         You can know ! Knowing will make you an effective witness for Christ !!!!


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I went back and re-read his closing statements. I would say he went overboard with some of his remarks.



Agree, and I know you don't judge as he did.How about a non-alcoholic cheers?


----------



## fish hawk

Artfuldodger said:


> Nice little town, I've got a lot of family buried at New Hope, they migrated down from Upson County.



When I moved from Ambrose gas was .50 cent a gallon...I still have a lot of kin folk that live in Coffee Co.


----------



## Mako22

Ronnie T said:


> I've always been amazed at some people's/group's preoccupation with this subject.
> It certainly wasn't a subject that any of the apostles or disciples taught in book of Acts.
> The subject itself is not taught in Romans or any of the other writings.
> OSAS is a phrase I never ever speak or hear until I get on this forum.  I don't study it in the Bible, and I don't need it to find comfort and assurance of my own salvation.
> Jesus is the Lord of my life, that's why I know I'm going to heaven.
> 
> "Assurance of Salvation??"  Someplace in America tonight, there's bound to be small groups of people gathered together, drinking, using drugs, dealing with hangovers, etc.  At some point they'll get into a discussion of God and religion.  At least a few of them, thought they've never even accepted Jesus as their Lord, will claim they are "certain" they are 'as saved as anybody else'.
> Your "assurance" means nothing to God unless it's based upon Christ as your Lord.
> Remember what Jesus said:  "Not all who say unto me Lord Lord will enter into the kingdom of God, but he that......... what now, what did he say?..... You know what he said.
> 
> No one will ever enter heaven because they worked themselves there.
> No one will ever be in heaven because of OSASed.
> 
> They'll be there because Jesus was the Lord of their life and they had become His disciple.



Smells like lordship salvation to me.


----------



## Mako22

Another thread where most have no clue what they are talking about. The spiritual ignorance in this country amazes me!


----------



## centerpin fan

Woodsman69 said:


> Another thread where most have no clue what they are talking about. The spiritual ignorance in this country amazes me!



Where are the fundamental, KJV-only Baptists when you need them?


----------



## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> I never heard of OSAS or the elect growing up in a Baptist Church.



If only the SBC held to the Baptist Confession of Faith.



centerpin fan said:


> Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine!
> Oh, what a foretaste of glory divine!
> Heir of salvation, purchase of God,
> Born of His Spirit, washed in His blood.
> 
> Refrain:
> 
> This is my story, this is my song,
> Praising my Savior all the day long;
> This is my story, this is my song,
> Praising my Savior all the day long.
> 
> Perfect submission, perfect delight,
> Visions of rapture now burst on my sight;
> Angels, descending, bring from above
> Echoes of mercy, whispers of love.
> 
> Perfect submission, all is at rest,
> I in my Savior am happy and blest,
> Watching and waiting, looking above,
> Filled with His goodness, lost in His love.



What a wonderful reminder.

When we are saved....we submit to His commands....we have assurance.



Woodsman69 said:


> Another thread where most have no clue what they are talking about. The spiritual ignorance in this country amazes me!



Would you like to point out who you are referencing when you say "most?"

Or is this going to be another one of your typical "hit & run" random posts?


----------



## JB0704

CollinsCraft77 said:


> You guys make this pretty complex. I find it simple. My son does not stop being my son when he does wrong. He is still my son and he gets disciplined. Now I love him and he could run away and I never see him again. He will still be my son and I will still and always love him. Now I am just a man. Imperfect. But my love for my boy is constant.
> 
> How much more so with God? He may chastise, etc. but nothing, and I mean nothing shall pluck them out of his hand.



I'm kind-of a "fence sitter" on this topic for a few reasons.  For one, as you stated above, I will never stop loving my kids.  The father relationship is constantly used in the Bible to describe God's view of man.  How can we ever not be "his?"  But, this also opens the door to wondering, then, how so many get tossed away in the end. 

Plus, I was raised Baptist, so I got a few of those gremlins still runnin' around upstairs..OSAS, KJV only, women preachers, etc.  I work through them cautiously.


----------



## Ronnie T

Woodsman69 said:


> Smells like lordship salvation to me.



Do you enjoy the aroma?


----------



## Ronnie T

Woodsman69 said:


> Another thread where most have no clue what they are talking about. The spiritual ignorance in this country amazes me!



"Spiritual" ignorance or "Biblical" ignorance or both?  



.


----------



## rjcruiser

Woodsman69 said:


> Smells like lordship salvation to me.





Ronnie T said:


> Do you enjoy the aroma?



Except for all the rules & regs y'all require to maintain your salvation, yeah...Lordship Salvation.


----------



## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> If only the SBC held to the Baptist Confession of Faith.
> QUOTE]
> 
> I said that Baptists believe in perseverance of the saints, but no Baptist confession uses the phrase “once saved, always saved,” or anything close. No Baptist confession is unaware that there are “mere professors” among those who are elect and will persevere.
> 
> From this link:
> 
> http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/do-baptists-believe-once-saved-always-saved


----------



## Artfuldodger

JB0704 said:


> I'm kind-of a "fence sitter" on this topic for a few reasons.  For one, as you stated above, I will never stop loving my kids.  The father relationship is constantly used in the Bible to describe God's view of man.  How can we ever not be "his?"  But, this also opens the door to wondering, then, how so many get tossed away in the end. QUOTE]
> 
> I would never turn my back on my children either but since they have free will, they could turn their back on me. I would willingly take them back later on, no matter what they had done in their past. I would forgive them. I would never force them to love me.


----------



## barryl

*?????????*



Woodsman69 said:


> Another thread where most have no clue what they are talking about. The spiritual ignorance in this country amazes me![/QUOTE?????????????? Clarify, if you are gonna start it, you might as well finish it]


----------



## barryl

*Present*



centerpin fan said:


> Where are the fundamental, KJV-only Baptists when you need them?[/QUOTERight here CP,]


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Right here CP,



I know.  I was just teasing Woodsman. 

You still gotta work on that quote function.


----------



## barryl

This thread was started to get you to take that old pointing finger to turn it and point it to your own CHEST {self examination} Ref. post #1, #48. Romans 3:4, Matt. 23:24


----------



## gtparts

I'll post this for rj and others who seem to have questions regarding the SBC and the theological positions that should be integral to the local church bodies that seek to affiliate with the Convention. Such conformity was sought and initiated to synergize the evangelistic and missionary efforts of the member churches by the implementation of a program, the Cooperative Program. 

And, btw, it is the Baptist Faith and Message. In sixty plus years, I've never heard it referred to as a "confession", as it makes no sense for any confession other than that of the individual.

http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp

It should be noted that, from time to time as seemed necessary, the Convention has appointed a committee to revisit the document in order to make recommendations of amending it to better convey with clarity the core beliefs. The last revision was June 4, 2000.


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> This thread was started to get you to take that old pointing finger to turn it and point it to your own CHEST {self examination}



I do!

_"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" _

-- 2 Cor 13:5


----------



## rjcruiser

Here's a quick lesson on quoting.  Minus the x

[xquote=nameofpersonyou'requoting]stuff you're quoting[x/quote]





Artfuldodger said:


> rjcruiser said:
> 
> 
> 
> If only the SBC held to the Baptist Confession of Faith.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I said that Baptists believe in perseverance of the saints, but no Baptist confession uses the phrase “once saved, always saved,” or anything close. No Baptist confession is unaware that there are “mere professors” among those who are elect and will persevere.
> 
> From this link:
> 
> http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/do-baptists-believe-once-saved-always-saved
Click to expand...


Perseverance of the saints and OSAS is the same thing.


You should read the Baptist Confession of 1689.

http://www.grbc.net/about_us/1689.php

Look at the section on Free Will to...might surprise ya.




gtparts said:


> I'll post this for rj and others who seem to have questions regarding the SBC and the theological positions that should be integral to the local church bodies that seek to affiliate with the Convention. Such conformity was sought and initiated to synergize the evangelistic and missionary efforts of the member churches by the implementation of a program, the Cooperative Program.
> 
> And, btw, it is the Baptist Faith and Message. In sixty plus years, I've never heard it referred to as a "confession", as it makes no sense for any confession other than that of the individual.
> 
> http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp
> 
> It should be noted that, from time to time as seemed necessary, the Convention has appointed a committee to revisit the document in order to make recommendations of amending it to better convey with clarity the core beliefs. The last revision was June 4, 2000.



What is taught in the churches is a direct reflection of what is taught in the seminaries.  What is taught in the seminaries is a direct reflection of the leadership of the convention.

Fortunately, I think that the leadership is wanting to get back to its roots (ie the confession of 1689) and it is flowing through the seminaries and slowly flowing down to the SBC churches.


----------



## gtparts

JB0704 said:


> I'm kind-of a "fence sitter" on this topic for a few reasons.  For one, as you stated above, I will never stop loving my kids.  The father relationship is constantly used in the Bible to describe God's view of man.  How can we ever not be "his?"  But, this also opens the door to wondering, then, how so many get tossed away in the end.





Artfuldodger said:


> I would never turn my back on my children either but since they have free will, they could turn their back on me. I would willingly take them back later on, no matter what they had done in their past. I would forgive them. I would never force them to love me.



JB, there seems to be a lack of understanding concerning His human creations and those adopted into His family by faith. 

There are many people who do not qualify as His "children". The NT makes it clear that every human has either God as their Father or Satan as their Father. Fence-straddling is not an option, according to Scripture. God's covenant is with His children, only. Those who are not in covenant relationship with God, through Christ, are not His children and as lost as Cooter Brown.


----------



## Artfuldodger

The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith
 Chapter 9: Free Will
9.1 God has provided the human will by nature with liberty and power to act upon choice; it is neither forced, nor determined by any intrinsic necessity to do good or evil. [1]

Matthew 17:12    James 1:14    Deuteronomy 30:19    
9.2 In his state of innocence, Adam had freedom and power to will and to do what was good and well-pleasing to God; [1] but he was unstable so that he might fall from this condition. [2]

Ecclesiastes 7:29    
Genesis 3:6    
9.3 The human race through the fall into a state of sin, has completely lost all ability of will to perform any spiritual good accompanying salvation. In our natural state we are altogether opposed to spiritual good and dead in sin; we are not able, by our own strength, to convert ourselves, or even to prepare ourselves for conversion. [1]

I'm neither Baptist nor Southern Baptist but doesn't 9.1 & 9.3 contradict each other?


----------



## JB0704

gtparts said:


> Fence-straddling is not an option, according to Scripture. God's covenant is with His children, only. Those who are not in covenant relationship with God, through Christ, are not His children and as lost as Cooter Brown.



Thanks for your comments, GT.  When I say "fence sitting" I only mean confused.  I'm not trying to take both sides.

I have almost always believed OSAS until I began reading all the comments on this forum.  Then, it occurred to me that there are sound points in either direction.  I am not claiming either position until I understand the truth.


----------



## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith
> Chapter 9: Free Will
> 9.1 God has provided the human will by nature with liberty and power to act upon choice; it is neither forced, nor determined by any intrinsic necessity to do good or evil. [1]
> 
> Matthew 17:12    James 1:14    Deuteronomy 30:19
> 9.2 In his state of innocence, Adam had freedom and power to will and to do what was good and well-pleasing to God; [1] but he was unstable so that he might fall from this condition. [2]
> 
> Ecclesiastes 7:29
> Genesis 3:6
> 9.3 The human race through the fall into a state of sin, has completely lost all ability of will to perform any spiritual good accompanying salvation. In our natural state we are altogether opposed to spiritual good and dead in sin; we are not able, by our own strength, to convert ourselves, or even to prepare ourselves for conversion. [1]
> 
> I'm neither Baptist nor Southern Baptist but doesn't 9.1 & 9.3 contradict each other?



Nope.

9.1 deals with pre-fall.

9.3 deals with post-fall.


----------



## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> Except for all the rules & regs y'all require to maintain your salvation, yeah...Lordship Salvation.



What greater salvation than Jesus as my Lord?

Cheap grace?   gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme

.


----------



## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> Here's a quick lesson on quoting.  Minus the x
> 
> [xquote=nameofpersonyou'requoting]stuff you're quoting[x/quote]
> 
> Perseverance of the saints and OSAS is the same thing.
> 
> You should read the Baptist Confession of 1689.
> 
> http://www.grbc.net/about_us/1689.php
> 
> Look at the section on Free Will to...might surprise ya.
> 
> 
> What is taught in the churches is a direct reflection of what is taught in the seminaries.  What is taught in the seminaries is a direct reflection of the leadership of the convention.
> 
> Fortunately, I think that the leadership is wanting to get back to its roots (ie the confession of 1689) and it is flowing through the seminaries and slowly flowing down to the SBC churches.



I couldn't agree more with the above.


----------



## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> I couldn't agree more with the above.



RonnieT...for some reason, I think you and I are much closer on the issues than what we write on here.  At times, we're right on right on with eachother, then others, I'm left scratching my head.  I think it is probably more the lack of ability to get a message across clearly over an internet forum message board.

Hope y'all have a great weekend and a wonderful Lord's Day on Sunday.


----------



## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> RonnieT...for some reason, I think you and I are much closer on the issues than what we write on here.  At times, we're right on right on with eachother, then others, I'm left scratching my head.  I think it is probably more the lack of ability to get a message across clearly over an internet forum message board.
> 
> Hope y'all have a great weekend and a wonderful Lord's Day on Sunday.



I bet you're right.
Same to you brother.

.


----------



## barryl

*Testify*

I have noticed that only 1 or 2 have commented pertaining to Post #48, its being avoided like the plague. Matt. 10 :33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.


----------



## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> Nope.
> 
> 9.1 deals with pre-fall.
> 
> 9.3 deals with post-fall.


 
I just read all three verses dealing with section 9.1 from the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith and they all pertained to man having free will after the fall.
Matthew 17:12; James 1:14; Deuteronomy 30:19

I do think early Baptist were Calvinist and to some extent still are. The Baptist belief of OSAS is part of that holdover.
When it really comes down to it, very few people are total believers of free will. Some people believe we have, for the most part free will but God can intervene. This is where I would fall. Others believe we have no free will. Some people believe we are saved and that there is nothing you can do to lose salvation. Most of these people don't believe in free will. Others believe we are saved by grace, it's still God's ultimate choice/gift but since we have free will we can give the gift back, our choice.  I fall into this group, and we think it odd that God would demand our love. I don't see how you can believe in free will & OSAS at the same time.
The third group of believers think we have free will but God already knows our free will choices before we even make them. He knew before you were even born what you would do today and on what day you will become a Christian if at all. He knows all this but doesn't control it. To me the last version seems impossible. I would believe in predestination before I believed in that version.


----------



## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> From the top, Do you trust in the FINISHED work of the Lord Jesus Christ ? Before you answer,take a few minutes to study the doctrines of Salvation{Soteriology} Adoption{changed position}, Regeneration { a changed nature},Justification {a changed standing}, sanctification{a changed character}, Imputation{sinner is charged with Christ's righteousness and Jesus Christ is charged with his sins}. If you ever get hold of these things you will never doubt your salvation. You will know the difference between a charasmatic experience or feeling and Bible regeneration. You will know when a man is lying to you when he is quoting the Scripture or when a man is trying to decieve you by quoting Scripture. Work of Righteuosness Isaiah 32:17 KJV 1611 AV Do you trust  Gods perfect righteuosness, The Lord Jesus Christ, or are you trusting your own selfrighteousness ? Only two knows, you and God !! Its been mentioned earlier that assurance does'nt mean much to God, go ask him, I believe you will find out whether it does or not !! Now go and get alone with God, get it worked out with him and his son 2 Cor. 5:21  KJV 1611 AV         You can know ! Knowing will make you an effective witness for Christ !!!![/QUOTE
> 
> It will take most people more that a few minutes to study those doctrines. If you consider those and other doctrines such as dispensationalism with the various beliefs about eschatology, end times, the rapture, and millennial ism, pre-isms, etc.
> To be honest, I haven't did a lot of deep Bible study over the years and I don't think most people have. This is not to say the people on this forum haven't, they have did a lot of Bible study. We can all use more studying  about the Bible. The more I learn the more I realize I don't know. I don't believe the Bible verse about having the faith of a child means we should abandon our study of the bible.


----------



## StriperAddict

Artfuldodger said:


> Some people believe we are saved and that there is nothing you can do to lose salvation. Most of these people don't believe in free will.


 
There are some who trust in the sufficency of the cross and ressurection for the eradication of the Adamic/Sin Nature, but who also know moment by moment where the power of sin comes from (our unredeemed bodies, see Rom 7 again), and who realise they _have the choice_ (will): to yield to the power of the Spirit or yield to the temptation/ sinful thought.
Consider:  If the sinful thought originates from "the members of your body"  then you have the power of the living Lord/Christ IN you to take authority over it,
but if you believe YOU are the originator of that sinful thought (in other words you believe you are dual natured, "good/evil") then you have NO authority and power against it, and you might as well believe you can slide the slippery slope of loosing what Christ has done: and that is made you holy, blameless, redeemed, child of God, brother of Christ, bond Servant... a New Creation.

So to answer your quote, Yes, I believe I am saved and can never loose what Christ has done, 
and daily I must come and yield my members to righteousness (act of the will), by choice, when the power of sin comes against me. 
Peace


----------



## Mako22

My assurance of salvation has nothing to do with how I feel on any given day or what silly post someone puts on this forum. My assurance that I am saved forever rest entirely in the word of God, I have God's word on it and that is good enough for me.


----------



## barryl

*In Ref. to post #78*

First things first, A child like faith, but first I have to see if it lines up to the way I or any man thinks, not the way GOD {Holy Ghost} says it has to be !!   1 Cor. 2:13-14, 1 Cor. 6:19-20, and Col. 2: 9-13. Head knowledge helps, no doubt, but HEART knowledge will get you plum to the 3rd. Heaven after your last breath !!!


----------



## Ronnie T

Woodsman69 said:


> My assurance of salvation has nothing to do with how I feel on any given day or what silly post someone puts on this forum. My assurance that I am saved forever rest entirely in the word of God, I have God's word on it and that is good enough for me.



Could you elaborate.


----------



## barryl

*Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!*



Woodsman69 said:


> My assurance of salvation has nothing to do with how I feel on any given day or what silly post someone puts on this forum. My assurance that I am saved forever rest entirely in the word of God, I have God's word on it and that is good enough for me./QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> barryl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amen Brother Woodsman69!!!!!]
Click to expand...


----------



## Artfuldodger

If someone fell away, could it be God hardening their heart? God could also soften ones heart. The potter could take away your assurance for any reason he sees fit.


----------



## barryl

*??????*



Artfuldodger said:


> If someone fell away, could it be God hardening their heart? God could also soften ones heart. The potter could take away your assurance for any reason he sees fit.[QUOTE= barryl I'm sure you have Ch. and verse to qualify these thoughts. Take another week or two to study the salvation doctrines so you can answer the yes or no question on Post#48 from the heart. By the way, this is a free country, anyone can go to - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - any way they want to, but calling GOD a liar will work as good as any reason I can think of


----------



## Ronnie T

barryl,
in the bottom right corner of each comment on this forum you'll see a blue "quote" button.  If you want to comment on someone elses comment, simple click on the "quote" botton of the comment you want to comment on.
That comment will then appear in a fresh window.  All you got to do is type your comments below, underneath the quoted words.

Try it.  If you mess it up the first time, press the edit button, then delete your comment.
Ease.  Try it.


----------



## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> Artfuldodger said:
> 
> 
> 
> If someone fell away, could it be God hardening their heart? God could also soften ones heart. The potter could take away your assurance for any reason he sees fit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> barryl I'm sure you have Ch. and verse to qualify these thoughts. Take another week or two to study the salvation doctrines so you can answer the yes or no question on Post#48 from the heart. By the way said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will study those verses from post 48. I don't have a verse to reference and wouldn't want to appear to be deceiving on God hardening or softening our hearts. The question was from a preacher who said when he tells of God hardening Pharaoh's heart someone always ask if God could do the same to us?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## StriperAddict

Artfuldodger said:


> God could also soften ones heart. The potter could take away your assurance for any reason he sees fit.


God being the _justifier of the person who puts his/her faith in Jesus_ would then be _unjust_ to do as you suggest.  You are suggesting the cross/redemption cannot bring assurance... is it because it is up to us to "keep it"?

John 6:40
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that _you may know that _you have eternal life.


----------



## Artfuldodger

It does seem logical that God would not harden a Christians heart. I would think the only non Christians he would do this to were never gonna change anyway. The Potter makes some vessels/people for good uses and some for other uses. If someone is already a chosen vessel for a good use/Christian, God wouldn't turn that person into a bad vessel or harden their heart.
I still think a Christian can harden their own heart though.
Psalm 95:8
do not harden your hearts as you did at Meribah, as you did that day at Massah in the desert,
Hebrews 3:8
do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion, during the time of testing in the desert,
Mark 6:52 
"For they considered not the miracle of the loaves: for their heart was hardened."
Hebrews 3:15 "While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation."
Hebrews 4:7  "Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts."


----------



## barryl

Ronnie T said:


> barryl,
> in the bottom right corner of each comment on this forum you'll see a blue "quote" button.  If you want to comment on someone elses comment, simple click on the "quote" botton of the comment you want to comment on.
> That comment will then appear in a fresh window.  All you got to do is type your comments below, underneath the quoted words.
> 
> Try it.  If you mess it up the first time, press the edit button, then delete your comment.
> Ease.  Try it.


YEAH !! Thanks RT, big help. I kinda stick to ESPNU's call slogan "Never Graduate" Now I can take another round on the Potters Wheel. Thanks again


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> barryl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Artfuldodger said:
> 
> 
> 
> If someone fell away, could it be God hardening their heart? God could also soften ones heart. The potter could take away your assurance for any reason he sees fit.
> 
> I will study those verses from post 48. I don't have a verse to reference and wouldn't want to appear to be deceiving on God hardening or softening our hearts. The question was from a preacher who said when he tells of God hardening Pharaoh's heart someone always ask if God could do the same to us?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes He can, if He chooses to.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## barryl

Tick Tock, Tick Tock,Tick Tock,  etc.


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Tick Tock, Tick Tock,Tick Tock,  etc.


----------



## barryl

I guess theres only 2 or 3 of us not afraid to say we trust in the FINISHED WORK of JESUS CHRIST and assured of it !!!!


----------



## gtparts

StriperAddict said:


> There are some who trust in the sufficiency of the cross and resurrection for the eradication of the Adamic/Sin Nature, but who also know moment by moment where the power of sin comes from (our unredeemed bodies, see Rom 7 again), and who realize they _have the choice_ (will): to yield to the power of the Spirit or yield to the temptation/ sinful thought.
> Consider:  If the sinful thought originates from "the members of your body"  then you have the power of the living Lord/Christ IN you to take authority over it,
> but if you believe YOU are the originator of that sinful thought (in other words you believe you are dual natured, "good/evil") then you have NO authority and power against it, and you might as well believe you can slide the slippery slope of loosing what Christ has done: and that is made you holy, blameless, redeemed, child of God, brother of Christ, bond Servant... a New Creation.
> 
> So to answer your quote, Yes, I believe I am saved and can never loose what Christ has done,
> and daily I must come and yield my members to righteousness (act of the will), by choice, when the power of sin comes against me.
> Peace





Woodsman69 said:


> My assurance of salvation has nothing to do with how I feel on any given day or what silly post someone puts on this forum. My assurance that I am saved forever rest entirely in the word of God, I have God's word on it and that is good enough for me.



Brothers, we are of a single mind on this. Thanks for making my own contribution unnecessary, except to say, "AMEN!".


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> I guess theres only 2 or 3 of us not afraid to say we trust in the FINISHED WORK of JESUS CHRIST and assured of it !!!!



I think everybody who posts here would agree with that.


----------



## barryl

*?????*



centerpin fan said:


> I think everybody who posts here would agree with that.


Sorry i'm just not the assuming type. Ain't nothing like telling the world. Brother I am not ashamed !!!!!!


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Sorry i'm just not the assuming type. Ain't nothing like telling the world. Brother I am not ashamed !!!!!!



Neither am I.  I believe in the finished work of Jesus Christ.  I do not believe in OSAS.  I used to, though, so I'm covered either way.


----------



## barryl

*Joke ?*

I just found out today that GOD does not really mean what he says. He's just jokin around, NOT !!!! Theres enough scripture about eternal security to knock a Bull down, but the authorities{yourselves} just won't trust his word or him. Heres the Joke for today, John 1:12 KJV 1611 AV But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. Romans 6: 22-23 ,another Joke? Heres what the losers{ loss of Salvation} do 1, scare tactics, quotes old test. passages or Trib. passages. Or quote passages that deal with an unsaved man in this age or quote a passage that deals with the loss of testimony  or a ministry instead of the loss of eternal salvation. Just so you know, I was raised in a Penecostal church, saved about 17 o18 times{retreaded}. Finally I said, Lord, show me the truth, heres how he did it, 2 Tim 2:15-16 I am praying for all of you, so that you will be able to answer YES to post #48


----------



## Artfuldodger

This is my take on it: If I become an Atheist, I would lose my salvation.
If you were to become an Atheist, then you were never saved.
I don't know how to pick the correct verses where God is talking to me to prove this. It's just something between me and the Holy Spirit. I've just recently discovered that most of the Bible doesn't even concern me so it's a learning process as to who God or Jesus was preaching to in a certain chapter.


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> I just found out today that GOD does not really mean what he says.



He means exactly what He says.  The question is "what does He mean".  Maybe He doesn't mean what you think He does.  See post #2.


----------



## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> I just found out today that GOD does not really mean what he says. He's just jokin around, NOT !!!! Theres enough scripture about eternal security to knock a Bull down, but the authorities{yourselves} just won't trust his word or him. Heres the Joke for today, John 1:12 KJV 1611 AV But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. Romans 6: 22-23 ,another Joke? Heres what the losers{ loss of Salvation} do 1, scare tactics, quotes old test. passages or Trib. passages. Or quote passages that deal with an unsaved man in this age or quote a passage that deals with the loss of testimony  or a ministry instead of the loss of eternal salvation. Just so you know, I was raised in a Penecostal church, saved about 17 o18 times{retreaded}. Finally I said, Lord, show me the truth, heres how he did it, 2 Tim 2:15-16 I am praying for all of you, so that you will be able to answer YES to post #48



I seriously expect that every person who has posted in this thread believes in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.
Every person must be convinced in their own heart.  It is Jesus Christ who is their Savior, not you!
Your sarcasm adds little to the discussion.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> I've just recently discovered that most of the Bible doesn't even concern me



Apparently, it doesn't.


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Just so you know, I was raised in a Penecostal church, saved about 17 o18 times{retreaded}. Finally I said, Lord, show me the truth, heres how he did it, 2 Tim 2:15-16 I am praying for all of you, so that you will be able to answer YES to post #48



I took a different path.  I started out as a OSAS guy and then said, "Lord, show me the truth".  After much study, I am no longer a OSAS guy.


----------



## barryl

John 14:26 will help you out. "IF" is a mighty big word "If a frog had wings. . ." For me its all about GODS take on things, thats what I'm trying to get across. My opinion ain't worth a dime !!


----------



## centerpin fan

Ronnie T said:


> I seriously expect that every person who has posted in this thread believes in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.



Absolutely.


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> For me its all about GODS take on things ...



Me too.  We just disagree on "God's take" on this issue.


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> John 14:26 will help you out. "



I thank God that He sent the Holy Spirit to guide me to my understanding of this issue.


----------



## barryl

*???*



centerpin fan said:


> Me too.  We just disagree on "God's take" on this issue.


fair enough


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Apparently, it doesn't.



I'm going to make me a small Bible with just John 3: 16 in it.


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> I took a different path.  I started out as a OSAS guy and then said, "Lord, show me the truth".  After much study, I am no longer a OSAS guy.



Same here.


----------



## Artfuldodger

barryl; Finally I said said:


> 2 Tim 2 :15
> 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
> 
> The scripture you quoted requires you to "Do your best"
> Is this a requirement you have to perform or have you been predestined to do your best?


----------



## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> Finally I said, Lord, show me the truth, heres how he did it, 2 Tim 2:15-16 I am praying for all of you, so that you will be able to answer YES to post #48


2 Tim 2:16
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Avoid pointless discussions. People who [pay attention to these pointless discussions] will become more ungodly,

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
But shun profane and vain utterances: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Using your quoted verse, how does it pertain to you participating this discussion? 
Do you think i'm doing a good job as an Artful Dodger?


----------



## Artfuldodger

I would like for everyone to realize we have more in common with our Christian fellowship than our differences. When it comes down to it everyone has beliefs that are way different than others and to me, discussing these topics are very helpful and a form of fellowship. I've said this before, you could sit down with a person from a foreign land and find out you have more in common than differences.
I also noted a little sarcasm in my last post to Barryl. I'm working on that but with a handle like "Artful Dodger" it's hard.


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> I would like for everyone to realize we have more in common with our Christian fellowship than our differences. When it comes down to it everyone has beliefs that are way different than others and to me, discussing these topics are very helpful and a form of fellowship. I've said this before, you could sit down with a person from a foreign land and find out you have more in common than differences.
> I also noted a little sarcasm in my last post to Barryl. I'm working on that but with a handle like "Artful Dodger" it's hard.



Amen.
There's a lot to learn from a brother or sister who disagrees with you.

I even listen to some Christian rap from time to time now.  But I must keep it a secret.


----------



## barryl

*Does the shoe fit ?*

Got a pm last night, scored 1 point{infraction}. My last post deleted. If I have offended anyone please forgive me !! Sarcasm, don't mix what you think is sarcasm, for truth. What Jesus has done for me, I'm serious about it. Now, are you married?, Yes or no, its that simple. Thats the simple question, yes or no. #1 and #48 are simple questions. Theres something in my bible about hiding your candle under a bush{spiritual App. only}


----------



## barryl

*Just one ?*



Artfuldodger said:


> I'm going to make me a small Bible with just John 3: 16 in it.


No use to do half a job, theres over 75 verses that deal with this subject.


----------



## barryl

*Rightly Divide*



Artfuldodger said:


> 2 Tim 2 :15
> 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
> 
> The scripture you quoted requires you to "Do your best"
> Is this a requirement you have to perform or have you been predestined to do your best?


Theres a reason the Holy Spirit put "RIGHTLY DIVIDE" 2 Tim. 2:15 in this verse. Easy you are going to upset the Calvinistic brethren. Predestination has nothing to do with {before} salvation, only after. Romans 8:29 KJV 1611 AV


----------



## barryl

*Awwwww*



Artfuldodger said:


> 2 Tim 2:16
> GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
> Avoid pointless discussions. People who [pay attention to these pointless discussions] will become more ungodly,
> 
> King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
> But shun profane and vain utterances: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
> 
> Using your quoted verse, how does it pertain to you participating this discussion?
> Do you think i'm doing a good job as an Artful Dodger?


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Got a pm last night, scored 1 point{infraction}. My last post deleted.



You're not the first, and you won't be the last.


----------



## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> Theres a reason the Holy Spirit put "RIGHTLY DIVIDE" 2 Tim. 2:15 in this verse. Easy you are going to upset the Calvinistic brethren. Predestination has nothing to do with {before} salvation, only after. Romans 8:29 KJV 1611 AV



Sorry to here about your infraction. Although I don't agree with all your views, I can tell you are dedicated to them.
I've never heard of your view on the quote above. If i've got this right you believe in free will until receiving salvation and then predestination takes over. This is part of your assurance. You could just touch briefly on this as I sure don't want another fee will/predestination debate.


----------



## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> If i've got this right you believe in free will until receiving salvation and then predestination takes over.





That would make no sense.  Interesting thought though...I really don't see how someone can believe in free-will and OSAS.  Either God is in control of your eternal destiny or He isn't.


----------



## barryl

*here we go again*

[/QUOTE=Artfuldodger;6901179]Sorry to here about your infraction. Although I don't agree with all your views, I can tell you are dedicated to them.
I've never heard of your view on the quote above. If i've got this right you believe in free will until receiving salvation and then predestination takes over. This is part of your assurance. You could just touch briefly on this as I sure don't want another fee will/predestination debate.[/QUOTE]SOTERIOLOGY- The doctrines of Salvation, Romans Chapters 1-12. Its all there, this whole thread is all about Salvation and Assurance. You started with "Imputation" but you stopped. You need to take one or two irons out of the fire. Its all about TRUST, stop DODGING the truth{ heres your pat on the back you were looking for in your earlier post}: I love some of these icons !


----------



## StriperAddict

rjcruiser said:


> Either God is in control of your eternal destiny or He isn't.


Then is the path of an OSAS believer one of total behavioral purity?  No, and I know you don't believe that either.  
But free will is involved in CHOICES one makes as a believer, correct? This goes back to my previos post in this thread.


----------



## StriperAddict

*on the lighter side*

barryl... have another look at post 86


----------



## barryl

*Oops*



StriperAddict said:


> barryl... have another look at post 86


I was doing so well, guess I did'nt do something right


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> I was doing so well, guess I did'nt do something right



You can still go back and edit your post.


----------



## barryl

*Hey CP*



centerpin fan said:


> He means exactly what He says.  The question is "what does He mean".  Maybe He doesn't mean what you think He does.  See post #2.


Maybe he does !!


----------



## barryl

*oh*



centerpin fan said:


> You can still go back and edit your post.


I was in a hurry today, I did what RT told me to do about it but it would not work.


----------



## JB0704

barryl said:
			
		

> I did what RT told me to do about it but it would not work.





Artfuldodger said:


> Sorry to here about your infraction. Although I don't agree with all your views, I can tell you are dedicated to them.
> I've never heard of your view on the quote above. If i've got this right you believe in free will until receiving salvation and then predestination takes over. This is part of your assurance. You could just touch briefly on this as I sure don't want another fee will/predestination debate.



Just watch your "/" marks.  CP gave me junk about it when I was new on here too.


----------



## centerpin fan

JB0704 said:


> Just watch your "/" marks.  CP gave me junk about it when I was new on here too.



It makes it so hard to read posts.  Also, when you quote somebody who has messed up a quote, you end up with something like posts 25 and 91.


----------



## JB0704

centerpin fan said:


> It makes it so hard to read posts.  Also, when you quote somebody who has messed up a quote, you end up with something like posts 25 and 91.



It's all good. 

I usually just disregard the ones that are too mixed up to make any sense.   Some of these threads I just enjoy following along and see if there is anything I can learn.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Apparently, it doesn't.



Where would be a good place to start? I've just recently, say in the last two years, got back into Bible study in regards to who God or Jesus is talking to in the Bible. I don't remember my preachers over the years  referring that often to what part of the Bible I should follow. That could just be bad recollection on my part.I'm not doubting this is true, i'm just not that familiar with it. There was one poster "Browning Fan" that seemed to know but vanished. I'll have to PM him. 
What i'm looking for is a web site or list or something to use as guidance.
I would like to hear from everyone, not just Gemcrew.


----------



## grizlbr

Rule #1 do you claim Jesus and say so here? Jesus will claim you on judgement day. What you think now does not matter, what you say does. So I inform everyone: see you in the final check out line: judgement day. So everyone goes to heaven and hears "Welcome or Good bye!" Rule #2 if you claim Jesus do you follow his words? 
There is a difference between doing 'Good' and doing what God's word directs us to do. Love one another- be in unison! Each to his own level of understanding. Those judging themselves or others by themselves are not wise! Judge not least Yea be judged by how you judged will always come home and bite you on/in the end!


----------



## Ronnie T

grizlbr said:


> Rule #1 do you claim Jesus and say so here? Jesus will claim you on judgement day. What you think now does not matter, what you say does. So I inform everyone: see you in the final check out line: judgement day. So everyone goes to heaven and hears "Welcome or Good bye!" Rule #2 if you claim Jesus do you follow his words?
> There is a difference between doing 'Good' and doing what God's word directs us to do. Love one another- be in unison! Each to his own level of understanding. Those judging themselves or others by themselves are not wise! Judge not least Yea be judged by how you judged will always come home and bite you on/in the end!



I think I don't understand what you're saying in the highlighted sentence.


----------



## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> Where are the fundamental, KJV-only Baptists when you need them?



Here dey go!! Late but spot on!!
John 3:16
King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


----------



## mtnwoman

rjcruiser said:


> That would make no sense.  Interesting thought though...I really don't see how someone can believe in free-will and OSAS.  Either God is in control of your eternal destiny or He isn't.



No....you chose by your free will to be saved...so you are always saved, because you yourself and you chose that, at 3, 7, 12, 24 years old...no matter if you backslide you made that choice and nothing can snatch you out of the palm of His hand after you chose that, no kind of sin, you are already forgiven your sin, you are under the blood....nothing can snatch you away...nothing....you don't believe that verse? You will always have free will while you are on earth....because if you were saved and God was in control of your will, you'd never sin again after you were saved....right?....God's will is for you not to sin...right? Do you?  Can you say you've never sinned after you were saved?....if so, you'd be the first i've ever heard of. Maybe forgiven but not sinless. Have you sinned since you were saved? Are you working on your will or God's then?


----------



## gemcgrew

grizlbr said:


> Rule #1 do you claim Jesus and say so here? Jesus will claim you on judgement day. What you think now does not matter, what you say does.



Please go and explain that to these folks.

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:22,23)

It would appear that they did a lot more than just proclaim a "Jesus" in a forum.


----------



## JB0704

grizlbr said:


> Love one another- be in unison! Each to his own level of understanding.



My favorite is when Churches run people out in the name of unity.  Man, that's some good "Christian" fun!

As to the rest, is rule 1 and 2 mandatory, or is that just the basics of Christian livin'?


----------



## barryl

*One more time*



Artfuldodger said:


> Where would be a good place to start? I've just recently, say in the last two years, got back into Bible study in regards to who God or Jesus is talking to in the Bible. I don't remember my preachers over the years  referring that often to what part of the Bible I should follow. That could just be bad recollection on my part.I'm not doubting this is true, i'm just not that familiar with it. There was one poster "Browning Fan" that seemed to know but vanished. I'll have to PM him.
> What i'm looking for is a web site or list or something to use as guidance.
> I would like to hear from everyone, not just Gemcrew.


I'm just trying to help !! Doctrinal, Spiritual, and Historical. One more thing, get rid of 29 or 30 of them bible translations so you can be consistant. If you can't find a website for what you are after, must not be one. I'm not trying to be sarcastic, just trying to help !!


----------



## rjcruiser

mtnwoman said:


> No....you chose by your free will to be saved...so you are always saved, because you yourself and you chose that, at 3, 7, 12, 24 years old...no matter if you backslide you made that choice and nothing can snatch you out of the palm of His hand after you chose that, no kind of sin, you are already forgiven your sin, you are under the blood....nothing can snatch you away...nothing....you don't believe that verse? You will always have free will while you are on earth....because if you were saved and God was in control of your will, you'd never sin again after you were saved....right?....God's will is for you not to sin...right? Do you?  Can you say you've never sinned after you were saved?....if so, you'd be the first i've ever heard of. Maybe forgiven but not sinless. Have you sinned since you were saved? Are you working on your will or God's then?



So you have free will to choose salvation, but you don't have free will to unchoose it?


Also, after we are saved by God, we still have a sin nature.  We can choose the way of escape that God gives us, but we are not perfect.  We will only be perfect when we get to heaven.


----------



## hobbs27

rjcruiser said:


> So you have free will to choose salvation, but you don't have free will to unchoose it?
> 
> 
> Also, after we are saved by God, we still have a sin nature.  We can choose the way of escape that God gives us, but we are not perfect.  We will only be perfect when we get to heaven.



I believe the answer to your question is yes.I'm also beginning to see we as Christians define salvation differently.
 I was born again when my faith was strong enough to understand and accept His grace. All three parts of God made it happen, Jesus shed his blood for me, the Holy Spirit beckoned me, and God sealed my name in the Lambs book. I see it as  "Being born" and once you are born into a family you are part of that family and no one can take that away.I also don't think God would ever beckon you, give it to you, then take it away, since He knows all, it sounds like for you to believe this you think God makes mistakes.
 Salvation is free to all, only when God invites you into the family, then you have that free will to turn him away our welcome him in.Jesus stands at the door and knocks.


----------



## StriperAddict

rjcruiser said:


> So you have free will to choose salvation, but you don't have free will to unchoose it?
> 
> 
> Also, after we are saved by God, we still have a sin nature. We can choose the way of escape that God gives us, but we are not perfect. We will only be perfect when we get to heaven.


 
Brother, I' sorry, but - Nothing could be further for the truth. I said it once, I'll say it again, if a believer is dual natured (in other words, they have the Righteousness of God in Christ _and ALSO_ the Adamic Sin nature).. then:
1) They are Spiritually skitsophrenic (>sp?<), or to be blunt... they are in a state of spiritual adultery.  (Do you take brand _new_ linen and stitch it on the _old_?, do you fill an old wine container with _new_? Can a married woman take on a NEW husband? No, not until her present husband_ has DIED_.) 
2) They would have absolutly NO power against sin if the SIN NATURE is NOT killed, eradicated. (How shal we who HAVE DIED (Present tense) to sin still live in it?) 

Question for another thread perhaps... What did Paul discover in Rom 7 then?  Do some view it as the _defeated_ Christian's chapter, or the victorious Christians chapter?
I choose the latter! 

The old Adamic sin nature is GONE, a believer is a NEW Creation in Christ, the old has PASSED AWAY (present tense again) and the NEW has come.

These are Spiritual, bible truths throughout the scriptures that will bring any sin-struggling believer victory, self included. I am in a study on these points right now and seeing just who we are in Christ is just incredible! Our lives are truely hid "with Christ in God"!

We are DEAD to the power of sin in our soul and spirit.  Consider a study of Rom ch's 6-8 and try to find where the scriptures are using the word "sin" as a force, or power, instead of just "acts OF sin", as we all do at times. There's great victory to be found there, esp. in ch 7, where Paul finally makes the discovery of where the power of sin comes in to play... in our members, or members of our flesh, or better still... in our _unredeemed bodies_.  If sin (the power of sin) were still in our NATURE (soul & spirit) then there's no hope!

Some say this is just semantics, but not so.  A NATURE has to do with our PERSON, and to suggest we still have a SIN NATURE would be to suggest that we are not complete in our PERSON, or IDENTITY, which is a lie from the pit!
We "are COMPLETE in HIM" (Christ), and no amount of WORK or un-work will CHANGE our IDENTITY. That would make the cross of Christ useless, because the remainig work after the cross would have to be done _by US_, or _IN our OWN STRENGTH_, something that for a believer is an impossibility!

Why?


Galatians 2:19-21 (_emphasis mine_)
<SUP class=versenum>*19 *</SUP>For through <SUP class=footnote value='[a]'></SUP>the Law _I <SUP class=crossreference value='(A)'></SUP>died to <SUP class=footnote value='[b]'></SUP>the Law_, so that I might live to God. 
<SUP class=versenum>*20 *</SUP>I have been <SUP class=crossreference value='(B)'></SUP>crucified with Christ; and it is _no longer I who live_, but <SUP class=crossreference value='(C)'></SUP>_Christ lives in me_; and <SUP class=footnote value='[c]'></SUP>the _life_ which I now live in the flesh _I live by faith_ in <SUP class=crossreference value='(D)'></SUP>the Son of God, who <SUP class=crossreference value='(E)'></SUP>loved me and <SUP class=crossreference value='(F)'></SUP>gave Himself up for me. 
<SUP class=versenum>*21 *</SUP>I do not nullify the grace of God, for <SUP class=crossreference value='(G)'></SUP>if righteousness _comes_ through <SUP class=footnote value='[d]'></SUP>the _Law (works)_, then _Christ died needlessly_.”

I often think/meditate on this next point, to help me when the accuser is "at the door" ...  

Our identity is never about what we DO,
Our identity is about who we ARE (in Christ)!

(although our identity has a lot to do with our behavior)


RJ, if you'd like a more comprehensive study on this, PM me for the material.  There are some great encouraging truths in Romans & Hebrews that make for some excellent study.

Peace out!


----------



## Ronnie T

StriperAddict said:


> Brother, I' sorry, but - Nothing could be further for the truth. I said it once, I'll say it again, if a believer is dual natured (in other words, they have the Righteousness of God in Christ _and ALSO_ the Adamic Sin nature).. then:
> 1) They are Spiritually skitsophrenic (>sp?<), or to be blunt... they are in a state of spiritual adultery.  (Do you take brand _new_ linen and stitch it on the _old_?, do you fill an old wine container with _new_? Can a married woman take on a NEW husband? No, not until her present husband_ has DIED_.)
> 2) They would have absolutly NO power against sin if the SIN NATURE is NOT killed, eradicated. (How shal we who HAVE DIED (Present tense) to sin still live in it?)
> 
> Question for another thread perhaps... What did Paul discover in Rom 7 then?  Do some view it as the _defeated_ Christian's chapter, or the victorious Christians chapter?
> I choose the latter!
> 
> The old Adamic sin nature is GONE, a believer is a NEW Creation in Christ, the old has PASSED AWAY (present tense again) and the NEW has come.
> 
> These are Spiritual, bible truths throughout the scriptures that will bring any sin-struggling believer victory, self included. I am in a study on these points right now and seeing just who we are in Christ is just incredible! Our lives are truely hid "with Christ in God"!
> 
> We are DEAD to the power of sin in our soul and spirit.  Consider a study of Rom ch's 6-8 and try to find where the scriptures are using the word "sin" as a force, or power, instead of just "acts OF sin", as we all do at times. There's great victory to be found there, esp. in ch 7, where Paul finally makes the discovery of where the power of sin comes in to play... in our members, or members of our flesh, or better still... in our _unredeemed bodies_.  If sin (the power of sin) were still in our NATURE (soul & spirit) then there's no hope!
> 
> Some say this is just semantics, but not so.  A NATURE has to do with our PERSON, and to suggest we still have a SIN NATURE would be to suggest that we are not complete in our PERSON, or IDENTITY, which is a lie from the pit!
> We "are COMPLETE in HIM" (Christ), and no amount of WORK or un-work will CHANGE our IDENTITY. That would make the cross of Christ useless, because the remainig work after the cross would have to be done _by US_, or _IN our OWN STRENGTH_, something that for a believer is an impossibility!
> 
> Why?
> 
> 
> Galatians 2:19-21 (_emphasis mine_)
> <SUP class=versenum>*19 *</SUP>For through <SUP class=footnote value='[a]'></SUP>the Law _I <SUP class=crossreference value='(A)'></SUP>died to <SUP class=footnote value='[b]'></SUP>the Law_, so that I might live to God.
> <SUP class=versenum>*20 *</SUP>I have been <SUP class=crossreference value='(B)'></SUP>crucified with Christ; and it is _no longer I who live_, but <SUP class=crossreference value='(C)'></SUP>_Christ lives in me_; and <SUP class=footnote value='[c]'></SUP>the _life_ which I now live in the flesh _I live by faith_ in <SUP class=crossreference value='(D)'></SUP>the Son of God, who <SUP class=crossreference value='(E)'></SUP>loved me and <SUP class=crossreference value='(F)'></SUP>gave Himself up for me.
> <SUP class=versenum>*21 *</SUP>I do not nullify the grace of God, for <SUP class=crossreference value='(G)'></SUP>if righteousness _comes_ through <SUP class=footnote value='[d]'></SUP>the _Law (works)_, then _Christ died needlessly_.”
> 
> I often think/meditate on this next point, to help me when the accuser is "at the door" ...
> 
> Our identity is never about what we DO,
> Our identity is about who we ARE (in Christ)!
> 
> (although our identity has a lot to do with our behavior)
> 
> 
> RJ, if you'd like a more comprehensive study on this, PM me for the material.  There are some great encouraging truths in Romans & Hebrews that make for some excellent study.
> 
> Peace out!



If a person who accepted Jesus was, at that point, totally reborn spiritually, that person would never ever committ another sin.
One sin in your life is proof that you have not become what you can become.  

You mention Romans chapter 7.  It's a great chapter.  Chapters 6 thru 11 contain important information concerning how God's grace touches our lives through His Holy Spirit.  How His Spirit has been made available to us so that we'd no longer be held by the bonds of evil.  So that we can be empowered to turn our backs on the evil of this world.  And God has given us that ability.

In chapter 12 Paul brings all those previous verses and chapters together.  Here's how he begins.....
"12 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

The last verse of the chapter, written to these Christians says this...... "21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."

God has graciously given me, and you, an empowerment to be able to rise above the power of evil in this world.  His grace was never intended to be a cloud or smoke screen that would simply hide our sin from God so that God would "think" we're better than we really are.

God's grace frees us to be able to tear loose from the grip that evil use to have on us.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Let me see if I have this right. Some OSAS believers believe a Christian can no longer sin. You can still do bad & evil things but they are not called sins because Jesus died for our sins.
Some OSAS believers believe if a Christian sins or becomes an Atheist, then he was never a Christian to begin with.  Some OSAS believers believe one or both of these. Some believe Christians still sin, they are just already forgiven. They still pray for forgiveness as a formality. Some believe you don't have to forgive others of their tresspasses.


----------



## gemcgrew

StriperAddict said:


> Brother, I' sorry, but - Nothing could be further for the truth.


 



StriperAddict said:


> I said it once, I'll say it again, if a believer is dual natured (in other words, they have the Righteousness of God in Christ _and ALSO_ the Adamic Sin nature).. then:
> 1) They are Spiritually skitsophrenic (>sp?<), or to be blunt... they are in a state of spiritual adultery.  (Do you take brand _new_ linen and stitch it on the _old_?, do you fill an old wine container with _new_? Can a married woman take on a NEW husband? No, not until her present husband_ has DIED_.)
> 2) They would have absolutly NO power against sin if the SIN NATURE is NOT killed, eradicated. (How shal we who HAVE DIED (Present tense) to sin still live in it?)
> 
> Question for another thread perhaps... What did Paul discover in Rom 7 then?  Do some view it as the _defeated_ Christian's chapter, or the victorious Christians chapter?
> I choose the latter!
> 
> The old Adamic sin nature is GONE, a believer is a NEW Creation in Christ, the old has PASSED AWAY (present tense again) and the NEW has come.
> 
> These are Spiritual, bible truths throughout the scriptures that will bring any sin-struggling believer victory, self included. I am in a study on these points right now and seeing just who we are in Christ is just incredible! Our lives are truely hid "with Christ in God"!
> 
> We are DEAD to the power of sin in our soul and spirit.  Consider a study of Rom ch's 6-8 and try to find where the scriptures are using the word "sin" as a force, or power, instead of just "acts OF sin", as we all do at times. There's great victory to be found there, esp. in ch 7, where Paul finally makes the discovery of where the power of sin comes in to play... in our members, or members of our flesh, or better still... in our _unredeemed bodies_.  If sin (the power of sin) were still in our NATURE (soul & spirit) then there's no hope!
> 
> Some say this is just semantics, but not so.  A NATURE has to do with our PERSON, and to suggest we still have a SIN NATURE would be to suggest that we are not complete in our PERSON, or IDENTITY, which is a lie from the pit!
> We "are COMPLETE in HIM" (Christ), and no amount of WORK or un-work will CHANGE our IDENTITY. That would make the cross of Christ useless, because the remainig work after the cross would have to be done _by US_, or _IN our OWN STRENGTH_, something that for a believer is an impossibility!
> 
> Why?
> 
> 
> Galatians 2:19-21 (_emphasis mine_)
> <SUP class=versenum>*19 *</SUP>For through <SUP class=footnote value='[a]'></SUP>the Law _I <SUP class=crossreference value='(A)'></SUP>died to <SUP class=footnote value='[b]'></SUP>the Law_, so that I might live to God.
> <SUP class=versenum>*20 *</SUP>I have been <SUP class=crossreference value='(B)'></SUP>crucified with Christ; and it is _no longer I who live_, but <SUP class=crossreference value='(C)'></SUP>_Christ lives in me_; and <SUP class=footnote value='[c]'></SUP>the _life_ which I now live in the flesh _I live by faith_ in <SUP class=crossreference value='(D)'></SUP>the Son of God, who <SUP class=crossreference value='(E)'></SUP>loved me and <SUP class=crossreference value='(F)'></SUP>gave Himself up for me.
> <SUP class=versenum>*21 *</SUP>I do not nullify the grace of God, for <SUP class=crossreference value='(G)'></SUP>if righteousness _comes_ through <SUP class=footnote value='[d]'></SUP>the _Law (works)_, then _Christ died needlessly_.”
> 
> I often think/meditate on this next point, to help me when the accuser is "at the door" ...
> 
> Our identity is never about what we DO,
> Our identity is about who we ARE (in Christ)!
> 
> (although our identity has a lot to do with our behavior)
> 
> 
> RJ, if you'd like a more comprehensive study on this, PM me for the material.  There are some great encouraging truths in Romans & Hebrews that make for some excellent study.
> 
> Peace out!


 

I have read your post 4 times and I have to scratch my head, unsure whether you agree with RJ or not. This may be because you are currently studying the issue.

Are you saying that the old nature dies in regeneration? That it gets better? Flesh is flesh, it will never be anything but flesh. Noah, Lot, Moses, David, Peter and all other believers had to struggle with this fact. 

An honest examination of our own hearts and lives shows  two warring natures within. Our best thoughts are corrupted with sin.


----------



## barryl

*Come on Man !!!*



Artfuldodger said:


> Let me see if I have this right. Some OSAS believers believe a Christian can no longer sin. You can still do bad & evil things but they are not called sins because Jesus died for our sins.
> Some OSAS believers believe if a Christian sins or becomes an Atheist, then he was never a Christian to begin with.  Some OSAS believers believe one or both of these. Some believe Christians still sin, they are just already forgiven. They still pray for forgiveness as a formality. Some believe you don't have to forgive others of their tresspasses.


O. K., get you a full cup of milk and relax. You keep tellin' everyone what osas's believe, what you need to do is figure out what you believe before you go tellin'  what others believe. #1 Jesus paid it all,all,all,all,all,all, Justification Imputation, SOTERIOLOGY SALVATION DOCTRINES etc. #2 If a Christian becomes an Atheist{ you gotta be kiddin} Hypothetical questions- Eve, garden of Eden ? Genisis ? Decieved ? Stumbling block, entrapment you get it !! Still playing up to your handle ? Salvation must be to simple for some people{child like Faith} Just keep diggin' you'll get it, we all need to come to the knowledge of the truth


----------



## gtparts

Artfuldodger said:


> Let me see if I have this right. Some OSAS believers believe a Christian can no longer sin. You can still do bad & evil things but they are not called sins because Jesus died for our sins.
> Some OSAS believers believe if a Christian sins or becomes an Atheist, then he was never a Christian to begin with.  Some OSAS believers believe one or both of these. Some believe Christians still sin, they are just already forgiven. They still pray for forgiveness as a formality. Some believe you don't have to forgive others of their tresspasses.



The OSAS issue has been hammered here so often, but rarely is it broken down into the most simple and compelling.

However, it is important for all of us to understand what we believe and why.
Let's start with the last part first.

The simple questions are "Who guarantees salvation?" and " Is the one making the guarantee going to renege on His promise?"

Now, Scripture tells me that God is the one making the offer of eternal life, so the first answer is 'God'. The second answer is summed up in Jesus' own words, "those whom the Father has given me are mine... and nothing can snatch them out of my hand."

Salvation, then, is the free gift of God and is sealed by the blood of Christ. Scripture repeatedly describes the 'redeemed' as being 'slaves' to the 'Master', many times erroneously translated as bond servant. Bond servant is completely inadequate to describe  our relationship to God. Furthermore, we are adopted into the family of God, from 'slave' to 'son' or 'daughter'. God wouldn't reject His own children. In fact, He couldn't. When we are spiritually adopted, we get God's spiritual 'DNA'.

So, the answer is this: If saved, ALWAYS SAVED!

Can a saved person, then reject Jesus as Lord and Savior? Sure, you may say, but what are the consequences? Scripture tells us again that Jesus will deny those who are not His. He ain't fooled for a second!

Multiple references are available, but the sheep/shepherd relationship is one example. Now, because God examines the heart for true motive and is perfectly just, no mistakes will be made at judgment. The lost will be eternally lost (they actually condemn themselves) if they die without Jesus. Those justified by faith will be saved.

Now, lets examine the first part of the OSAS doctrine, 'once saved'. Because we cannot examine the hearts of others with any accuracy, we tend to rely on what people say and what they do or do not do. God rejects that criteria as faulty and unnecessary. If a person is saved at all, truly saved, (and God alone knows for sure) it can only accomplished once (though the offer may be on the table for years or seconds). God will not ask Jesus to be re-crucified for the one who would truly accept and then truly reject Christ and the redemptive work of Christ on the cross (if there is such a person).

Let me ask you this. How many people do you know who would attest to being saved, lost, and saved a second time? I don't know any. Maybe I just haven't met that person yet. 

I have come to really cringe at the simplistic approach that most use to proclaim or deny the OSAS doctrine. It is far too loose a construct. I believe that the issue is much better expressed, understood, and supported by the ISAS doctrine, if saved, always saved.

Have a blessed LORD's day.


----------



## hobbs27

gtparts said:


> I believe that the issue is much better expressed, understood, and supported by the ISAS doctrine, if saved, always saved.
> 
> Have a blessed LORD's day.



Very good. I like this way of looking at it. I also worry so much about doctrine these day....I've heard many testimonies of people that were assured by someone that if they quoted a prayer after them, or if they signed a card and met with a counselor, or if they just stood in front of people and confessed Christ that's all it would take. I've also been in churches where they drag kids to the altar and tell them to get saved. God help those folks that do these things. I'm glad to have heard the testimonies of people that finally got it right, but I worry how many are out there thinking things are ok cause the man at church said so.
 Those churches are missing something...The Holy Spirit! When you "Just let God Happen" things always turn out for the best.


----------



## Ronnie T

gtparts said:


> The OSAS issue has been hammered here so often, but rarely is it broken down into the most simple and compelling.
> 
> However, it is important for all of us to understand what we believe and why.
> Let's start with the last part first.
> 
> The simple questions are "Who guarantees salvation?" and " Is the one making the guarantee going to renege on His promise?"
> 
> Now, Scripture tells me that God is the one making the offer of eternal life, so the first answer is 'God'. The second answer is summed up in Jesus' own words, "those whom the Father has given me are mine... and nothing can snatch them out of my hand."
> 
> Salvation, then, is the free gift of God and is sealed by the blood of Christ. Scripture repeatedly describes the 'redeemed' as being 'slaves' to the 'Master', many times erroneously translated as bond servant. Bond servant is completely inadequate to describe  our relationship to God. Furthermore, we are adopted into the family of God, from 'slave' to 'son' or 'daughter'. God wouldn't reject His own children. In fact, He couldn't. When we are spiritually adopted, we get God's spiritual 'DNA'.
> 
> So, the answer is this: If saved, ALWAYS SAVED!
> 
> Can a saved person, then reject Jesus as Lord and Savior? Sure, you may say, but what are the consequences? Scripture tells us again that Jesus will deny those who are not His. He ain't fooled for a second!
> 
> Multiple references are available, but the sheep/shepherd relationship is one example. Now, because God examines the heart for true motive and is perfectly just, no mistakes will be made at judgment. The lost will be eternally lost (they actually condemn themselves) if they die without Jesus. Those justified by faith will be saved.
> 
> Now, lets examine the first part of the OSAS doctrine, 'once saved'. Because we cannot examine the hearts of others with any accuracy, we tend to rely on what people say and what they do or do not do. God rejects that criteria as faulty and unnecessary. If a person is saved at all, truly saved, (and God alone knows for sure) it can only accomplished once (though the offer may be on the table for years or seconds). God will not ask Jesus to be re-crucified for the one who would truly accept and then truly reject Christ and the redemptive work of Christ on the cross (if there is such a person).
> 
> Let me ask you this. How many people do you know who would attest to being saved, lost, and saved a second time? I don't know any. Maybe I just haven't met that person yet.
> 
> I have come to really cringe at the simplistic approach that most use to proclaim or deny the OSAS doctrine. It is far too loose a construct. I believe that the issue is much better expressed, understood, and supported by the ISAS doctrine, if saved, always saved.
> 
> Have a blessed LORD's day.



Great.  Except you've left out several other thoughts and teachings that originated with Jesus and with His apostles.  You left out the other side of the topic.  

You left out, that God freed a nation that He chose for Himself from slavery in Egypt.  That God promised them a land for their own.  He promised them they they would be His nation.  Yet because they turned away from Him, they all died in the desert.
The Bible asks us a question.  What can those expect who now accept Jesus, touch the great gift of the Holy Spirit, they turn away for Jesus expect to happen to them?

Jesus Himself said not everyone who calls on Me as their Lord will enter into heaven, but....... .

What you wrote above sounds good.  But it only contains the theology of your beliefs!
It doesn't take into account that those who 'walk in the light, as Jesus is in the light, will be continually cleansed of their sins.

Dozens and dozens more.

And the grace that saved us on the day that we accepted Christ, and God accepted us.....  Is that saving grace our licenses to live in sin?

Here's the question for you and I.
Who is saved?
Who is it that accepts?
Who is it that must be pleased?
Who is it that will judge and decide.

And how about the parable of the dragnet?
It's a parable that decribes the kingdom of heaven.
It's a parable of who makes the decision, and what that decision is based upon, and why you and I cannot.

Not OSAS.
But LFJ (living for Jesus).


----------



## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> Very good. I like this way of looking at it. I also worry so much about doctrine these day....I've heard many testimonies of people that were assured by someone that if they quoted a prayer after them, or if they signed a card and met with a counselor, or if they just stood in front of people and confessed Christ that's all it would take. I've also been in churches where they drag kids to the altar and tell them to get saved. God help those folks that do these things. I'm glad to have heard the testimonies of people that finally got it right, but I worry how many are out there thinking things are ok cause the man at church said so.
> Those churches are missing something...The Holy Spirit! When you "Just let God Happen" things always turn out for the best.



Here's a huge problem!
Those people you discribe above are living empty lives now.  But they aren't worried because they've heard all about OSAS, so they don't have anything to worry about.
God will "bring them back into faithfulness" before they die (they think).


----------



## StriperAddict

GT, this time I thank you for putting down important points in the discussion that I can say amen to, including...


gtparts said:


> God will not ask Jesus to be re-crucified for  the one who would truly accept and then truly reject Christ and the  redemptive work of Christ on the cross (if there is such a person).
> 
> Let me ask you this. How many people do you know who would attest to  being saved, lost, and saved a second time? I don't know any. Maybe I  just haven't met that person yet.


And we should rightly ask, how can a person get saved twice? Would Christ have to die again?  Of course not.



gemcgrew said:


> I have read your post 4 times and I have to scratch my head, unsure whether you agree with RJ or not.
> Well,  I do not agree that the Adamic, or SIN NATURE is still ALIVE in a  believer, it was put to death on the cross once for all. We died there,  to the power of sin, to the law, and to ourselves as our life's vantage  point. Our new man, nature has become ALIVE in Christ. And as He can  never die again, nethier can our new nature (our soul/spirit man, or  identity) ever die again as well. To suggest we sin to the point of  "spiritual death" again is to make grace and the cross of Christ a vain,  worthless thing.
> 
> Are you saying that the old nature dies in regeneration? Yes!
> That it gets better?  No,  it's DEAD, why would you want to dig up what has died and been  eradicated? He who has died with Christ is freed from (the nature/power)  of sin in his new man, or new creation.  See Rom6:5-7 and 2 Cor 5:16-17
> 
> Flesh  is flesh, it will never be anything but flesh. Noah, Lot, Moses, David,  Peter and all other believers had to struggle with this fact.
> Correct. Paul teaches us that the power of sin still _originates_ with our _unredeemed flesh_, NOT our _soul/spirit_ (our person),
> 
> An honest examination of our own hearts and lives shows  two warring natures within. Our best thoughts are corrupted with sin.
> Again,  if you have a war with 2 natures, or if your identity is  evil/righteous, then you will NEVER be victorious.  Sin, or better, the  power of sin, will beat you to a pulp if it is still part of your  identity, or nature.
> 
> Sin ORIGINATES in our unredeemed body which is what Paul said: (Rom7<sup>:18)</sup><sup class="versenum"> </sup>"For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, _in my   flesh_" !  He _never said_ 'nothing good exists in my soul/spirit', because Christ has made them NEW. And  again, this is not semantics. Your FLESH is NEVER part of your  IDENTITY, only your justified soul & spirit, which is alive in  Christ.  The cross takes the flesh right out of the equation!





Ronnie T said:


> If a person who accepted Jesus was, at that  point, totally reborn spiritually, that person would never ever committ  another sin.
> One sin in your life is proof that you have not become what you can become.



The scripture clearly teaches us (believers) that "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the   truth is not in us."

What Paul talks about in Romans is 
1)our NEW NATURE and 
2)where the law, or power of sin still lives.  

Rom7:22 "For I joyfully concur with the law of God in   the inner man"
Can  an unbeliever make such a statement? No, because his soul/spirit are in  the Adamic, or sin NATURE. Sin is an unbelievers IDENTITY.  
But a  believers inner man has been perfected in Christ, his soul and spirit  redeemed, he has died to the SIN nature, and his NEW man, or nature  (soul/spirit... his IDENTITY) is no longer a SIN nature, but it is a  "Righteousness IN Chirst NATURE, holy, blameless, justified, glorified  (how else does a believer live in union with the HOLY Spirit?) and 
(hold your breath, yall, I know there's many that won't "get" this part...
... his NATURE (soul/spirit) is never to be IMPROVED UPON AGAIN.


"For I joyfully concur with the law of God in   the inner man",  Paul is saying here that his justified, regenerate spirit rejoices over  the things of God. As does every believer.  He continues...
v23a "but I see   a different _law _...." 
The word "law" there can also be 'principle'...
and here comes the kicker...  
v23b "_....  in the members of my body"  _
Where did Paul say the law or principle existed?
_in the members of hisbody  !!
_
This  is critical in understanding where sin is and where the power of sin  originates...!!!  If we say we have no sin (originating in OUR BODIES,  NOT our SPIRIT) we decieve ourselves, 1Jn 1:8.

If the power of sin (or sinful thought) comes from "the members of our bodies" (our flesh), then we _absolutely CAN take authority over it in Jesus name and in HIS victory!_
But  If the sinful thought in a believer comes from their "sinful"  soul/spirit, then they have NO authority over it!  And this is an  IMPOSSIBILITY...  because it is the CROSS, not US in owr strength, which  made us fully justified, holy, righteous, child of God, brother of  Christ, saint, NEVER to be improved upon again in our soul/spirit!  

Either Jesus died to take care of _both: 
1)_the acts of sin (by His blood) AND 
2)the law of power of sin (by His BODY Rom7:4), once for all, in our soul/spirit, or 
3) He didn't make us a NEW creation in our soul and spirit AT ALL.


I  think many christians are caught up in what takes place when a believer  gets more and more decieved by the power of sin in the flesh. The bible  makes it clear that in such tragic cases, and in worst cases, the  believer is delivered to satan...
for the destruction of his (sinful) flesh...
in order that his soul - spirit (his real Identity) is saved.

I believe it is our responsibility as a church to look after our fallen brethren and not judge their sin struggles.

But  I will also say emphatically, that unless the church of Christ knows  where the powewr of sin comes from, and how to take spiritual authority  over it, such "poor sinners saved by grace" (untrue) will never  understand who it is that lives in them (Christ) and who _delights to live through them_,
from the power of the risen Lord.

The flesh profits NOTHING. Stop trying to whip it into shape, when we, as living stones in the Lord, can _yield ourselves to the One who has won the COMPLETE victory_,  with every temptation and sinful thought which comes... NOT from our  new man (Christ in you), but from the members of our unredeemed body.


This  has taken me a while to write (during Ronnie's 2 new posts, sorry!), and I'm also sorry for being too "wordy".  Many of you can put down some great thoughts in little space, but for me  it's a struggle.  


Grace and peace to you all.


----------



## StriperAddict

Ronnie T said:


> Here's a huge problem!
> Those people you discribe above are living empty lives now.  But they aren't worried because they've heard all about OSAS, so they don't have anything to worry about.
> God will "bring them back into faithfulness" before they die (they think).


Here's another problem...
how can someone with a new nature, a redeemed, justified believer..
EVER say in his heart...

Oh, goody! Saved forever!  Let me sin it up something big!

Ex: A pig likes to wallow in the mud. That's its NATURE. A cat who falls in the mud will lick himself clean, that HIS NATURE.  
Q: If you take the hog and remove his NATURE completely, eradicate it, kill it, and put in the NATURE of a cat, what will the hog do if it gets in the mud? 
It will lick itself clean!

However, if you DON'T _remove _the nature of the hog, and put in the nature of a cat...  you'll have a creature that will NEVER be happy in whatever it finds itself.  On one side, the cat nature will be depressed about being muddy, and the hog side will "identify" with it. Then when it is clean, the "hog" nature will be miserable, but the cat nature will be ok.
What dysfunction!  But we view the christian life this same way (I no longer), and are laboring in a way that Christ never intended!

I am NOT talking sinless perfection, it'll never happen. We are left to surrender our bodies and our wills to Him who lives within, so that our (outward) behavior MATCHES that which has taken place in our spirit and soul.  This puts ALL the weight of our redemption and sanctification squarely on Christ's shoulders.... we cannot change ourselves and or our behavior, only Christ can do this as we yield.

If I can live to sin to the point of loosing the new man, there is no hope at all.  Or worse yet, I'm pressured to "do the works of the kingdom" in my own power, and not Christs'.  Sorry, but this is "religous work" if the cross has not done it all, and has not made us holy, blameless before him in our new man.  We cannot approach the throne of grace if we are not right in our "inner man", 
however,
if our new man is holy and blameless, justified/glorified, then we can come freely to the throne of grace to receive mercy, and grace to help in our times of need (sin struggles, et al)

Peace


----------



## Ronnie T

Striper, (or should I call you addict?)  Just kidding, never mind.

I agree with much of what you said above concerning the living of our Christian lives.  
But I think we'll always disagree on the matter of God taking such control of those new Christians in Acts 2:38 so that none of them would ever walk back into Judaism.

I also disagree with the premise of God never "allowing" a person to fall away.

Fortunately, it isn't a subject that's germane to Christian living.  
The person living in Christ is always assured of salvation.
And there's great peace found in that.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Artfuldodger said:


> Let me see if I have this right. Some OSAS believers believe a Christian can no longer sin. You can still do bad & evil things but they are not called sins because Jesus died for our sins.
> Some OSAS believers believe if a Christian sins or becomes an Atheist, then he was never a Christian to begin with.  Some OSAS believers believe one or both of these. Some believe Christians still sin, they are just already forgiven. They still pray for forgiveness as a formality. Some believe you don't have to forgive others of their trespasses.



I did say "some". Does anyone believe a Christian has to forgive others of their trespasses?


----------



## Artfuldodger

gtparts said:


> The OSAS issue has been hammered here so often, but rarely is it broken down into the most simple and compelling.
> 
> However, it is important for all of us to understand what we believe and why.
> Let's start with the last part first.
> 
> The simple questions are "Who guarantees salvation?" and " Is the one making the guarantee going to renege on His promise?"
> 
> Now, Scripture tells me that God is the one making the offer of eternal life, so the first answer is 'God'. The second answer is summed up in Jesus' own words, "those whom the Father has given me are mine... and nothing can snatch them out of my hand."
> 
> Salvation, then, is the free gift of God and is sealed by the blood of Christ. Scripture repeatedly describes the 'redeemed' as being 'slaves' to the 'Master', many times erroneously translated as bond servant. Bond servant is completely inadequate to describe  our relationship to God. Furthermore, we are adopted into the family of God, from 'slave' to 'son' or 'daughter'. God wouldn't reject His own children. In fact, He couldn't. When we are spiritually adopted, we get God's spiritual 'DNA'.
> 
> So, the answer is this: If saved, ALWAYS SAVED!
> 
> Can a saved person, then reject Jesus as Lord and Savior? Sure, you may say, but what are the consequences? Scripture tells us again that Jesus will deny those who are not His. He ain't fooled for a second!
> 
> Multiple references are available, but the sheep/shepherd relationship is one example. Now, because God examines the heart for true motive and is perfectly just, no mistakes will be made at judgment. The lost will be eternally lost (they actually condemn themselves) if they die without Jesus. Those justified by faith will be saved.
> 
> Now, lets examine the first part of the OSAS doctrine, 'once saved'. Because we cannot examine the hearts of others with any accuracy, we tend to rely on what people say and what they do or do not do. God rejects that criteria as faulty and unnecessary. If a person is saved at all, truly saved, (and God alone knows for sure) it can only accomplished once (though the offer may be on the table for years or seconds). God will not ask Jesus to be re-crucified for the one who would truly accept and then truly reject Christ and the redemptive work of Christ on the cross (if there is such a person).
> 
> Let me ask you this. How many people do you know who would attest to being saved, lost, and saved a second time? I don't know any. Maybe I just haven't met that person yet.
> 
> I have come to really cringe at the simplistic approach that most use to proclaim or deny the OSAS doctrine. It is far too loose a construct. I believe that the issue is much better expressed, understood, and supported by the ISAS doctrine, if saved, always saved.
> 
> Have a blessed LORD's day.



At least you did a good job of explaining my condensed version an I agree with some of it. I agree God would never take away his Gift. I agree only God knows who is saved. I agree that no one can snatch you from his hands. I agree that salvation is yours but if only God knows?


----------



## Artfuldodger

No one said anything about getting saved a 2nd time, just ask for forgiveness. No one said Jesus had to die again either. Jesus died for everyone's sins. Does that mean no one is going to He11? So Christians don't have a sin nature any more, they Just still sin. This is where free will to sin comes from and Christians have the help of the Holy Spirit. 
I'm sorry I misinterpreted earlier that some one said Christians don't sin. ( I've heard it said we don't sin on purpose but we accidentally sin.)

I'm really confused as to what people think is works. When a non-Christian walks down the aisle to accept Jesus, is that considered  works? If you have faith, which takes something on your own to believe in, is that works? Faith without works reveals an unchanged life. Okay, that person was never saved.
Freewill ending at salvation is not possible. We pick up the Holy Spirit as a guide. A guide will guide you in the right direction but not force you to choose the right path.


----------



## rjcruiser

StriperAddict said:


> The flesh profits NOTHING. Stop trying to whip it into shape, when we, as living stones in the Lord, can _yield ourselves to the One who has won the COMPLETE victory_,  with every temptation and sinful thought which comes... NOT from our  new man (Christ in you), but from the members of our unredeemed body.



So, then, our sin comes from members of our unredeemed body?  Not sure about that last sentence or thought above.




After reading your other posts though.....



We are probably closer on this than I'm reading...but I guess I'm not completely understanding your posts.

I still have sin inside of me...it is the curse of Adam.  

I am a new creation...like I Cor 5:17 says....and Gal 2:20 says it is no longer me in control, but God in me.

That being said, I still sin.  I still struggle with the daily battle to take up my cross.  Like Paul says in I Cor 9, we must buffet our bodies to gain spiritual endurance and spiritual discipline.


----------



## gtparts

Glad you appreciated my post, RT.
Since my intent was to breakdown the small deficiency of the OSAS, without writing a book, I did leave certain details out.




Ronnie T said:


> Great.  Except you've left out several other thoughts and teachings that originated with Jesus and with His apostles.  You left out the other side of the topic.
> 
> You left out, that God freed a nation that He chose for Himself from slavery in Egypt.  That God promised them a land for their own.  He promised them they they would be His nation.  Yet because they turned away from Him, they all died in the desert.
> 
> It was not a matter of cutting off Israel, but those of the generation that exited Egypt certainly never enjoyed the promise made to Abraham. Come to think of it, Abraham never saw, at least in his temporal life, the land of promise.
> 
> The Bible asks us a question.  What can those expect who now accept Jesus, touch the great gift of the Holy Spirit, they turn away for Jesus expect to happen to them?
> 
> Truthfully, Ronnie, I have never seen someone, having been filled with the HS, that ever turned from Christ. Yes, there have been pretenders/fakes and those who were clearly and sincerely deceived into believing a false Gospel and even those who deceived themselves by trying to reason out matters of faith with human logic. Satan is a tricky rascal and an accomplished liar... the best. While Scripture describes what we take to be 'saved' folks falling away, we can only say that they were halfhearted followers, not fully committed, lukewarm, the thin soil where the seed germinated but soon withered or where weeds, thorns, and thistles were allowed to choke the crop out. Sometimes, it was so quick and total that the birds came and ate the seed. The vine that produces nothing is only good for fuel and is cut off.
> 
> 
> Jesus Himself said not everyone who calls on Me as their Lord will enter into heaven, but....... .
> 
> What you wrote above sounds good.  But it only contains the theology of your beliefs!
> 
> Theology is man' study of God. All theology is the expression of someones beliefs.
> 
> It doesn't take into account that those who 'walk in the light, as Jesus is in the light, will be continually cleansed of their sins.
> 
> Dozens and dozens more.
> 
> And the grace that saved us on the day that we accepted Christ, and God accepted us.....  Is that saving grace our licenses to live in sin?
> 
> Absolutely not. You know better than that. Again, one who can conclude that he now has a Sin Permit is sorely deceived.
> 
> Here's the question for you and I.
> Who is saved?
> Who is it that accepts?
> Who is it that must be pleased?
> Who is it that will judge and decide.
> 
> And how about the parable of the dragnet?
> It's a parable that decribes the kingdom of heaven.
> It's a parable of who makes the decision, and what that decision is based upon, and why you and I cannot.
> 
> Not sure what this has to do with ISAS. Obviously, from my posts, God is sovereign. God is willing, capable, and committed to the permanent, continuous, and eternal redemption of each individual who confesses, accepts, turns to Jesus as Lord and Savior. You and I can "take that to the bank"!
> 
> Not OSAS.
> But LFJ (living for Jesus).



You can't LFJ without being SAVED. Salvation is the 'horse'; LFJ is the 'cart'.


----------



## StriperAddict

Ronnie T said:


> Striper, (or should I call you addict?) Just kidding, never mind.
> 
> I agree with much of what you said above concerning the living of our Christian lives.
> But I think we'll always disagree on the matter of God taking such control of those new Christians in Acts 2:38 so that none of them would ever walk back into Judaism.
> 
> I also disagree with the premise of God never "allowing" a person to fall away.
> 
> Fortunately, it isn't a subject that's germane to Christian living.
> The person living in Christ is always assured of salvation.
> And there's great peace found in that.


 
Addict is ok, just so long as you don't call me "striPPer" LOL.


Wether or not the "Judizers" were saved is up for heaven to decide. I'm certain that there are still Messianic/Jewish Christians who still hold to a belief system which embraces "the law" to some extent.  
Which brings me to the point... did we not come to Christ with tons of baggage, brought to us by the programming of the world, the flesh and the devil?
And how much of that _in our behavior and beliefs_ completly vanished at the point of justification & redemption? Maybe some, maybe much, maybe none at all.
That's where doctrine comes in.. to change our old beliefs to truth., the renewing of the mind. Is it not still going on, even for some seasoned saints?

I often think of Jonny Cash. His lifelong struggle with drugs was well know, mostly because he himself was accountable for it, and his behavior. But the man's faith was also something of legend. Perhaps some Christians who think what we do is who we are... they don't think so. But I believe that his struggle did never, and could never, tarnish the new man within, the one who in Christ was holy and blameless before the throne of God.  And I'm going to bet there were things out of that struggle which had him glean things of the mercy of the kingdom I can only dream of.  I am not applauding his drug history/behavior, I am simply a witness of the new creation in this man that brought faith to a new place for me.

Finally, consider the body of Christ.  On the cross, what was the purpose of the death of the body of Christ? Was it not to deliver to death the power of sin once contained in our soul & spirit?  This, for me, gives a whole new and wonderful perspective to the taking of the cup and the bread. Now I not only remember that the blood of Christ cleanses me from ALL sin (acts of sin), past, present and future, but the celebration of the body of Christ is a celebration of the death of the adamic sin nature, and death to the law.  Consider:

*Romans 7:4*
Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the *body* of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
*Ephesians 2:16*
and might reconcile them both in _one *body* to God_ through the cross, by it having _put to death the enmity_.

*Romans 8:10*
If Christ is in you, though the *body* is dead because of sin(yep, it's going to the grave... rotten wormfood that it is), yet _the spirit is alive_ because of righteousness  (not our righteousness, but Christs'!).


Ok, enough for now.  I'll be back sometime later if the Lord (and a crazy work schedule) permits


----------



## StriperAddict

rjcruiser said:


> So, then, our sin comes from members of our unredeemed body?


Correct!

Consider:
Rom 7:20 "But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, <SUP class=crossreference value='(AJ)'></SUP>I am no longer the one doing it, but _sin which dwells in me_."

Now the question returns... where does sin dwell?

Rom7:
<SUP class=versenum>*18 *</SUP>For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, _in my <SUP class=crossreference value='(AH)'></SUP>flesh_
<SUP class=versenum>*23 *</SUP>but I see <SUP class=crossreference value='(AM)'></SUP>a _different law in <SUP class=footnote value='[p]'></SUP>the members of my body_, waging war against the <SUP class=crossreference value='(AN)'></SUP>law of my mind (or one could say the primciple of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus) and making me a prisoner <SUP class=footnote value='[q]'></SUP>of <SUP class=crossreference value='(AO)'></SUP>the law of sin which is in my members. 

The law of sin, or better, the power of sin, is the agent that satan uses to pressure us into unrighteous "ACTS" of sin, and then he will accuse us, since we (falsely) believe what we do is WHO we ARE.

But that lie died at the cross!  You have a new nature from Christ in you, the hope of glory, and Christ _through you_ can defeat the power of sin when it comes, as you yield your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
"<SUP class=versenum>*24b *</SUP>Who will set me free from <SUP class=footnote value='[r]'></SUP><SUP class=crossreference value='(AP)'></SUP>the body of this <SUP class=crossreference value='(AQ)'></SUP>death? <SUP class=versenum>*25 *</SUP> <SUP class=crossreference value='(AR)'></SUP>Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
We can't and never will, get away from that daily pressure of the power of sin in our bodies until our redemmed soul & spirit go home. But as this same body is the temple of God's Holy Spirit, Christ can do the work, because the ultimate work has been done... finished. His life is ours to surrender to when those thoughts of sin come.  
Consider the pressure our Lord was under by the same power of sin in the Garden.  He bowed to the Father, and gave the Father the ok to stand the course and not cling to His fleshly life.  He did not sin as this "pressure" was upon Him, but demonstrates to us that when we yield as He did to honor the Father, so we too can yield and watch Him overcome the world, the flesh and the devil.


Ok, NOW I'm ouuta here!  

Thanks, all, for getting me to ponder His grace/mercy afresh today.


----------



## gemcgrew

rjcruiser said:


> We are probably closer on this than I'm reading...but I guess I'm not completely understanding your posts.


Same here.


rjcruiser said:


> I still have sin inside of me...it is the curse of Adam.


The inward condition is pure and sinless, no? 


rjcruiser said:


> I am a new creation...like I Cor 5:17 says....and Gal 2:20 says it is no longer me in control, but God in me.
> That being said, I still sin.  I still struggle with the daily battle to take up my cross.  Like Paul says in I Cor 9, we must buffet our bodies to gain spiritual endurance and spiritual discipline.


Agreed


----------



## thedeacon

I am very sure of my salvation and it has nothing to do with wheather I believe in Once Saved Always Saved. It has to do with my heart and Gods love for me.

Grace and Mercy DOES NOT GIVE US AN OPEN TICKET TO SIN.
I pray that people are not taking Gods goodness to lightly.


----------



## Ronnie T

Here's a statement made earlier this morning:

the blood of Christ cleanses me from ALL sin (acts of sin), past, present and future

*Now please read these two verses.

Acts 2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls. 
47.......And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.

*Now, does the above statement in blue say that these folks in Acts 2 are forgiven, totally, completely, it's a done deal, nothing can alter it???
Have the covenant requirements been completely fulfilled from both parties at that day, period?


----------



## rjcruiser

StriperAddict said:


> Correct!
> 
> Consider:
> Rom 7:20 "But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, <SUP class=crossreference value='(AJ)'></SUP>I am no longer the one doing it, but _sin which dwells in me_."



Interesting...I'll have to study that passage a bit more.  Never heard or thought of my body having unredeemed areas and redeemed areas.  Always thought I was totally redeemed.



gemcgrew said:


> The inward condition is pure and sinless, no?



Not sure I understand the question.

We are spiritually dead until the Holy Spirit makes us spiritually alive.  Until then, we can do nothing except sin.  After our spiritual awakening, we can do both, and then when we receive our glorified bodies in Heaven, we'll do nothing but glorify God.



thedeacon said:


> Grace and Mercy DOES NOT GIVE US AN OPEN TICKET TO SIN.
> I pray that people are not taking Gods goodness to lightly.



I don't think anyone here is promoting that.  Romans 6 should take care of that thought pretty quickly.



Ronnie T said:


> Here's a statement made earlier this morning:
> 
> the blood of Christ cleanses me from ALL sin (acts of sin), past, present and future
> 
> *Now please read these two verses.
> 
> Acts 2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
> 47.......And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.
> 
> *Now, does the above statement in blue say that these folks in Acts 2 are forgiven, totally, completely, it's a done deal, nothing can alter it???
> Have the covenant requirements been completely fulfilled from both parties at that day, period?



You bring up an interesting passage.  The beginning of Acts is a transition time as the Holy Spirit is given to believers now that Christ has ascended into Heaven.  I don't think you can read the first couple of chapters of Acts and apply that to current times.


----------



## StriperAddict

Ronnie T said:


> Here's a statement made earlier this morning:
> 
> the blood of Christ cleanses me from ALL sin (acts of sin), past, present and future
> 
> *Now please read these two verses.
> 
> Acts 2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
> 47.......And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.
> 
> *Now, does the above statement in blue say that these folks in Acts 2 are forgiven, totally, completely, it's a done deal, nothing can alter it???


I don't see where it states that a "partial" salvation has taken place,  do you?

When someone receives the word and is baptised into Christ by an act of the Holy Spirit, are you suggesting they have their own "work" to do to complete their justification?

Who cleanses us from sin anyway,

some H2O,

or the Spirit of God as the blood of Christ is applied to his acts of sin (yes, past, present & future) ?


----------



## StriperAddict

rjcruiser said:


> Interesting...I'll have to study that passage a bit more. Never heard or thought of my body having unredeemed areas and redeemed areas. Always thought I was totally redeemed.


 
The best part of you... your soul and spirit, is totally redemmed! This is where your identity has both died (sin nature) and rose up with Christ (new man, NEW nature), and it never has to be improved upon again.

We are a 3 part being, 
1) body (the flesh which will one day be discarded at physical death), 
2) soul (mind, will & emotions) 
3) and spirit. Your soul/spirit is the true you, it is your identity which totally came alive at the point of your redemption & justification.

Don't let the enemy of your/our souls fool you into thinking your identity is tied to what you DO. That is a lie.  Your identity is as pure as the righteousnesss of God in Christ, and it is out of your identity that God works within, to do His will of His good pleasure.

I don't know about yall, but this takes the pressure off, and allows us to see and experience the "soul rest" the scriptures speak of.  This is the true "rest - of - faith", as we see it is the grace of God doing the work, not us, no never us... to boast about.  
And allowing the Lord, thru surrender and yielding our members to Him, we grow up into all maturity... over time... in our (outward) behavior.  
Just don't put the cart (behavior) before the horse (the cross)!


----------



## barryl

ACTS 2:38- Is giving instructions to OLD TESTAMENT JEWS, under the law, on what to do in view of the fact that they have killed their divinely chosen ruler. I know that there are some that despise this verse in the bible 2 tim. 2:15 "RIGHTLY DIVIDE" No salvation in that verse for a Christian


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> ACTS 2:38- Is giving instructions to OLD TESTAMENT JEWS, under the law, on what to do in view of the fact that they have killed their divinely chosen ruler.



I have two issues with this:

1)   Peter goes on to say in verse 39 that this promise "is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."

2)  It implies that there is a "Jewish salvation" and a separate "Christian salvation", but Paul makes it clear in Galatians 3 that Gentiles are saved by faith, just as Abraham was.


----------



## gemcgrew

rjcruiser said:


> Not sure I understand the question.



I think it is just a matter of terminology.



rjcruiser said:


> We are spiritually dead until the Holy Spirit makes us spiritually alive.  Until then, we can do nothing except sin.  After our spiritual awakening, we can do both, and then when we receive our glorified bodies in Heaven, we'll do nothing but glorify God.



Agreed. 

We all have a corrupt nature within us, which would drive us to sin. We also have within us a righteous nature, which would draw us into perfect conformity with Christ. Between these two forces of good and evil there is no peace (1 John 3:7-9).

A new nature is planted within us but I do not believe the old nature is eradicated.  I do not think that the old nature dies in regeneration. Flesh remains flesh. God could remove all evil but chooses not to. It is for our good.


----------



## barryl

*Acts 2:38*



centerpin fan said:


> I have two issues with this:
> 
> 1)   Peter goes on to say in verse 39 that this promise "is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."
> 
> 2)  It implies that there is a "Jewish salvation" and a separate "Christian salvation", but Paul makes it clear in Galatians 3 that Gentiles are saved by faith, just as Abraham was.


Acts 2:38- states plainly that ISRAEL{ House of Israel} will not recieve the baptism of the Holy Ghost short of water baptism. [John the Baptist]Sounds like another thread start to me


----------



## hobbs27

barryl said:


> Acts 2:38- states plainly that ISRAEL{ House of Israel} will not recieve the baptism of the Holy Ghost short of water baptism. [John the Baptist]Sounds like another thread start to me



Funny, I always took as. "Hey, you failed God in the OT and now he has torn it down, {the veil of the temple was rent in twain} , now you must repent in the name of Jesus,{The man you just killed} and be Baptized, cause animal sacrifice ain't gonna cut it no more.And By the way, in about 30 or so years before this generation has passed God is sending in the Romans to destroy this place of Israel and scatter the remaining Jews around the world, never to protect you again as long as you don't profess his Son."


----------



## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> You bring up an interesting passage.  The beginning of Acts is a transition time as the Holy Spirit is given to believers now that Christ has ascended into Heaven.  I don't think you can read the first couple of chapters of Acts and apply that to current times.



Really?  

47.......And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.

What would make anyone believe things might have changed later on in the book of Acts?
Acts 2 is the  institution of the church, the kingdom of heaven isn't it?  I don't see any reason for anyone to believe it would be different today.


----------



## Ronnie T

StriperAddict said:


> I don't see where it states that a "partial" salvation has taken place,  do you?
> 
> When someone receives the word and is baptised into Christ by an act of the Holy Spirit, are you suggesting they have their own "work" to do to complete their justification?
> 
> Who cleanses us from sin anyway,
> 
> some H2O,
> 
> or the Spirit of God as the blood of Christ is applied to his acts of sin (yes, past, present & future) ?



Since the subject of this thread is "Assurance of salvation", I think it would be wise for anyone to investigate the question and answer.  Especially since there are a number of situations in the Bible that might provide detail.


----------



## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> Acts 2:38- states plainly that ISRAEL{ House of Israel} will not recieve the baptism of the Holy Ghost short of water baptism. [John the Baptist]Sounds like another thread start to me



Does not!
Absolutely does not!


----------



## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> ACTS 2:38- Is giving instructions to OLD TESTAMENT JEWS, under the law, on what to do in view of the fact that they have killed their divinely chosen ruler. I know that there are some that despise this verse in the bible 2 tim. 2:15 "RIGHTLY DIVIDE" No salvation in that verse for a Christian



I wholeheartedly disagree completely.
It's just not so.

"Rightly Divide".  Do you post that phrase everytime someone disagrees with you?

The chapter is what it is.  There's much more that I could say but it's just not necessary on my part.  There is simply no basis for anyone to believe what you've stated.


----------



## barryl

2 tim. 2:15 is one of my favorite verses of the Bible whether you like it or not !! You should learn to like it to. If you don't like what is put on this thread just do what I do, stay off of it. You have made it very clear you don't agree with anything on this thread anyway, save yourself some misery !!


----------



## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> 2 tim. 2:15 is one of my favorite verses of the Bible whether you like it or not !! You should learn to like it to. If you don't like what is put on this thread just do what I do, stay off of it. You have made it very clear you don't agree with anything on this thread anyway, save yourself some misery !!



I intend to stay on this thread and discuss it as much as I like.

I've very interested in where your understanding of Acts 2 not applying to you and I come from.


----------



## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> Here's a statement made earlier this morning:
> 
> the blood of Christ cleanses me from ALL sin (acts of sin), past, present and future
> 
> *Now please read these two verses.
> 
> Acts 2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
> 47.......And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.
> 
> *Now, does the above statement in blue say that these folks in Acts 2 are forgiven, totally, completely, it's a done deal, nothing can alter it???
> Have the covenant requirements been completely fulfilled from both parties at that day, period?






StriperAddict said:


> I don't see where it states that a "partial" salvation has taken place,  do you?
> 
> When someone receives the word and is baptised into Christ by an act of the Holy Spirit, are you suggesting they have their own "work" to do to complete their justification?
> 
> Who cleanses us from sin anyway,
> 
> some H2O,
> 
> or the Spirit of God as the blood of Christ is applied to his acts of sin (yes, past, present & future) ?



Someplace between Acts 2:47 and ...
Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

........ is the answer.

Why would someone's name be erased?


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Someplace between Acts 2:47 and ...
> Revelation 3:5
> He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
> 
> ........ is the answer.
> 
> Why would someone's name be erased?



It would defy omniscience, would it not?


----------



## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> Someplace between Acts 2:47 and ...
> Revelation 3:5
> He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
> 
> ........ is the answer
> 
> Why would someone's name be erased?



He that overcometh will not be blotted out.If overcometh means "born again" it means again salvation is assured.
To me that's what it means, to you it doesn't, so here we are, stalemate.


----------



## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> Really?
> 
> 47.......And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.
> 
> What would make anyone believe things might have changed later on in the book of Acts?
> Acts 2 is the  institution of the church, the kingdom of heaven isn't it?  I don't see any reason for anyone to believe it would be different today.



I'm more referring to the spiritual gifts and the giving of the holy spirit to believers. At times in the beginning of Acts, it is immediate. At other times, it is at baptism. And at other times it is even later.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> It would defy omniscience, would it not?



I don't think it will defy it.
I think it will prove omniscience.

As the Gospel points out over and over, a person's relationship only begins in Acts 2.  From Acts 2 until..... the relationship is maintained by both sides of the covenant relationship.
God has expectations, as Paul so often stated.
God will show His omniscience, especially when we attempt to show ours.


----------



## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> He that overcometh will not be blotted out.If overcometh means "born again" it means again salvation is assured.
> To me that's what it means, to you it doesn't, so here we are, stalemate.



Then as wise students of the Gospel we will need to look very closely at these verses in Rev 3 to see if Jesus is speaking of them accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior for the very first time, or if Jesus is speaking of them purposely moving beyond the fleshly evils of life.

Surely, it's one or the other.  It would be a cop-out for me to make up my mind without being honest with the scriptures.  Don't you think?

Revelation 3:3  
1.“To the angel of the church in Sardis write:

He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: ‘ 

I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 
2 Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God. 

3 So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. 

Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you. 

4 But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 

5  He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life........


Look back at verse 2.  That's what needs to be overcome.
"strengthen the things that are about to die."
"Wake up" or I'll remove your name from the book of life.

A name that was added to that book in Acts 2:47, not at the beginning of time.

What are your thoughts.


----------



## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> I'm more referring to the spiritual gifts and the giving of the holy spirit to believers. At times in the beginning of Acts, it is immediate. At other times, it is at baptism. And at other times it is even later.



In looking at all the conversions recorded in Acts it appears to me that every person probably received the "gift" (the indwelling) of the Holy Spirit at the same time.  Except Corneilias.  Corneilias was baptized with the Holy Spirit (and spoke as one possessed by the HS).
I can't find any record of any other person's conversion following the sequence of Corneilias.

I'll also say this.  It doesn't appear to me that Acts 2 records those people receiving the very special gifts of the Holy Spirit (speaking with other languages, healing, prophesying).
I expect that they did at some point, but acts 2 doesn't seem to record it.

Now I've introduced too many worms into the discussion.


----------



## StriperAddict

*Great thread*



Ronnie T said:


> Since the subject of this thread is "Assurance of salvation", I think it would be wise for anyone to investigate the question and answer. Especially since there are a number of situations in the Bible that might provide detail.


 
I'm enjoying the investigation, really.  With some of the back and fourth, there's no harm done, IMO, and I wanted to let you know that Ronnie, and RJ, Artfull, gemcgrew and all. Anything that gets us digging into holy writ is a neat thing 

I won't conclude my thoughts just yet, but I will add that I personally find more scripture that deals with salvations' total assurance than those that do not. Right now, some things in the word are still a bit of a paradox, but that is no doubt true for us all, otherwise we'd be spiritually/biblically akin to the apostle Paul himself. (But I'm working on it  ! Lol!)

Ronnie, I'm also surprised you didn't come up with Heb. ch 6 along with the Revelation verses for your case! Just sayin! 

Anyway... this is good stuff. Me loves a bible challenge !!

~Walter


----------



## rjcruiser

StriperAddict said:


> I'm enjoying the investigation, really.  With some of the back and fourth, there's no harm done, IMO, and I wanted to let you know that Ronnie, and RJ, Artfull, gemcgrew and all. Anything that gets us digging into holy writ is a neat thing
> ~Walter



Does this count for quiet time?  


I agree, this has been good civil discussion for the most part.


----------



## StriperAddict

rjcruiser said:


> Does this count for quiet time?


 
Perhaps an offering beyond what we "tithe", no?


----------



## barryl

*Application ?*



Ronnie T said:


> I intend to stay on this thread and discuss it as much as I like.
> 
> I've very interested in where your understanding of Acts 2 not applying to you and I come from.


I'm not Jewish. You ?


----------



## Artfuldodger

The "Book of Life" is the list of Christians going to Heaven not unsaved people. Now what a Christian must do to get their name "Erased or Blotted out", I don't rightly know.


----------



## Ronnie T

Thanks guys.  It is great to be talking Bible.
In the end, it proves the great connection we have in Christ.
Who's right?  Who's wrong?  I suspect we all are.


----------



## StriperAddict

*good point*



Artfuldodger said:


> The "Book of Life" is the list of Christians going to Heaven not unsaved people. Now what a Christian must do to get their name "Erased or Blotted out", I don't rightly know.


 
Good question.  Because if they can "DO" something...  it means we're moving toward a "works" salvation/gospel, doesn't it?

Just stirrin, er, sayin  !


----------



## StriperAddict

Ronnie T said:


> Thanks guys. It is great to be talking Bible.
> In the end, it proves the great connection we have in Christ.
> Who's right? Who's wrong? I suspect we all are.


 
Right/wrong, don't really care...  but I think some of the topics like this are penned in scripture so's we don't get puffed up.  Too much head knowledge can be a bad thing ! But this is bringing me into scriptures that I have new rev's/takes/perspectives on, and that's way cool .


----------



## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> I'm not Jewish. You ?



Thankfully, through faith and mercy, I have been allowed access to God in the same manner of the Jews of Acts 2 were allowed.

Galatians 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

And we all have been circumcised.  With the circumcision of the heart.
As it turned out, the great commission was for everyone from every place in the world.

From the seller of purple, to the jailer, to the disciples of John who had never heard of the Holy Spirit.


----------



## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> Then as wise students of the Gospel we will need to look very closely at these verses in Rev 3 to see if Jesus is speaking of them accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior for the very first time, or if Jesus is speaking of them purposely moving beyond the fleshly evils of life.
> 
> Surely, it's one or the other.  It would be a cop-out for me to make up my mind without being honest with the scriptures.  Don't you think?
> 
> Revelation 3:3
> 1.“To the angel of the church in Sardis write:
> 
> He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: ‘
> 
> I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.
> 2 Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God.
> 
> 3 So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent.
> 
> Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.
> 
> 4 But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.
> 
> 5  He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life........
> 
> 
> Look back at verse 2.  That's what needs to be overcome.
> "strengthen the things that are about to die."
> "Wake up" or I'll remove your name from the book of life.
> 
> A name that was added to that book in Acts 2:47, not at the beginning of time.
> 
> What are your thoughts.



Here's my thoughts , on those that overcome.
1john 5:4-5 explains those that Overcome as those born again.
 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Now a look back at Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh (born again), the same shall be clothed in white raiments; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, (assurance) ....Jesus said it, and I believe it.


----------



## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> Here's my thoughts , on those that overcome.
> 1john 5:4-5 explains those that Overcome as those born again.
> For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
> 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
> 
> Now a look back at Revelation 3:5
> He that overcometh (born again), the same shall be clothed in white raiments; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, (assurance) ....Jesus said it, and I believe it.



Do you believe that people who have not been born again already have their name written and recorded in the book of life?
In Rev 3 Jesus is speaking to the possibility of these subject people having their names removed from the book of life.


----------



## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> Do you believe that people who have not been born again already have their name written and recorded in the book of life?
> In Rev 3 Jesus is speaking to the possibility of these subject people having their names removed from the book of life.



Ofcourse,
 a three year old child dies, do you put them in he11- because they have yet to be saved? Their name is there, only to be blotted out when the HS beckons and they refuse, which is denying God or blasphemy.They hopefully will get more chances, but after awhile He will turn them over to a reprobate mind.


----------



## Ronnie T

Well, it certainly doesn't appear to me that Jesus was talking to unbelievers at the church in Sardis..  " 4 But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5  He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name 

So are you saying that every person born since Christ's Lordship began has had their names placed in the book of life as soon as they are born?


----------



## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> So are you saying that every person born since Christ's Lordship began has had their names placed in the book of life as soon as they are born?



Yes I am. As a child is made by God and has a soul, that child has a name with God in the Lambs book, he will only remove it for blasphemy which is denying the Holy Spirit when beckoned. Also to add to or take away from any part of the Book of Revelation {the unveiling of Jesus Christ} is blasphemy and denying God.
 That's what I believe with all my heart, and I've read all the scriptures, and I hope to read them all again and again in this old life, and maybe the Holy Spirit will direct me in another direction one day, but right now, this is the way I see it. God Bless!


----------



## Artfuldodger

A child is born and their name is written in the Book of Life. When is their name removed? Is it the age of consent? Then when they accept Jesus it get's re-entered? I'm trying to figure out when a name gets blotted out or removed. In order for a name to get blotted out it would have to already be there. God already know who's going to Heaven why does he need a book? Why does he need to blot out someone's name anyway? If someone's name is in the Book of Life, it can get blotted out and then their name is written in the Book of Death. People who are not righteous, & transgressors will have their name removed from the Book of Life and recorded in the Book of Death.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Matthews chapter 6 -14 & 15: The bible tells us that for if ye forgive man their trespasses, your heavenly father will also forgive you.

Verse 15: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your father forgive your transgressions.

To live a righteous life and to forgive others of their transgressions requires something from us. If you want to call it Works, i'm ok with that.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> A child is born and their name is written in the Book of Life. When is their name removed? Is it the age of consent? Then when they accept Jesus it get's re-entered? I'm trying to figure out when a name gets blotted out or removed. In order for a name to get blotted out it would have to already be there. God already know who's going to Heaven why does he need a book? Why does he need to blot out someone's name anyway? If someone's name is in the Book of Life, it can get blotted out and then their name is written in the Book of Death. People who are not righteous, & transgressors will have their name removed from the Book of Life and recorded in the Book of Death.



Jesus gave us some answers for our carnal minds because we can't comprehend things of the spirit.
Looking at this thing spiritually, we are born with salvation, it's a way to get to heaven,then at whatever time God decides be it  5 years old or 75 , the Holy Spirit will beckon you, if you accept, you are saved and your name remains. if you reject, you are in a very troubled state in which if you die, you will not be known because your name has been blotted out. This is a state known by many as being Lost.If you finally give in to his calling, your name will not be blotted out ever again, if you do not, and you continue to reject him he could turn you over to a reprobate mind.
 I personally watched a man die, that testified he knew he was -he11 bound. It was a very sad thing to see. He said he rejected God for years, then one time while at church God started calling on him and he ran out the church, heard the doors slam behind him and when he looked back they were still open. He said God let him know he was out of chances, and he never had an invitation again.
 I've also been at the bedside of many saints that knew without a doubt heaven was near, I've been with them and felt the breeze of the spirit pass by as the angels carried em away.It's a peaceful passing when they have assurance of salvation.


----------



## Artfuldodger

For example you turn 14 & the Holy Spirit beckons you. You refuse the call and your name is blotted out.  Later in life you are given another chance from the Holy Spirit and refuse again. I would assume God protects you from dieing and going to He!! until you are given this 2nd chance.This could go on & on until God has had enough and says "ok no more chances,writes his name in the Book of the dead"., At this point God could purposely quit keeping you alive in hopes of future salvation.
This scenario gives man a choice which i'm ok with. But at some point when God has had enough, he takes that choice away before the man dies. The man's got to live a few years on earth doomed to He11 with no choice to repent. 
How can God finally get fed up with this man when he knew what his outcome would be from the get go?
Would you say a Christian has a choice in living a righteous life & is incapable of not forgiving people of their transgressions? I picked those two because those two things are what can get your name removed from the Book of Life.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> For example you turn 14 & the Holy Spirit beckons you. You refuse the call and your name is blotted out.  Later in life you are given another chance from the Holy Spirit and refuse again. I would assume God protects you from dieing and going to He!! until you are given this 2nd chance.This could go on & on until God has had enough and says "ok no more chances,writes his name in the Book of the dead"., At this point God could purposely quit keeping you alive in hopes of future salvation.
> This scenario gives man a choice which i'm ok with. But at some point when God has had enough, he takes that choice away before the man dies. The man's got to live a few years on earth doomed to He11 with no choice to repent.
> How can God finally get fed up with this man when he knew what his outcome would be from the get go?



Read the story of the rich man and Lazarus.First thing we notice is Lazarus has a name, the rich man has no name, part of the rich mans agony is the fact that he had a choice and not only did he do wrong he persuaded his family to do wrong also, he desperatly wanted to send word to his family so as they wouldn't end up as he did. 
 Yes, God knows the outcome, but those that die and go to he11, will agonize over their choices while here, it's part of the punishment.




Artfuldodger said:


> Would you say a Christian has a choice in living a righteous life & is incapable of not forgiving people of their transgressions?.



The born again Christian will continue to sin, we're incapable of not sinning, even to live a perfect life we have the original sin of Adam on us, but by accepting Jesus as Lord, all sin is cleansed and it's cleansed from that inward man, that part that can't be touched.
 We too will be punished for sin , we as children that have been born into the family of God, will be chastized by the Father for our sinful ways, and sin is sin, it all smells foul to the Father. We will know when we have upset our Father.
 It is our duty or our works here on Earth as children of the Father to allow our inward man to shine, to allow God to be seen in our lives, we are to be the salt and light of this Earth, after all He sent His only begotten Son to die in place of us.While on the cross Jesus took on all the sin that he may die. Remember the wages of sin is death, without sin Jesus could not have died on the cross. He bared it all for us. The sin I have committed was on Jesus that day, same as you and others. The sin He took on at the cross was so strong God had to turn away, this is why Jesus asked, My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me? We owe Him a debt we can never repay.


----------



## gtparts

A-dodger, you don't get your name scratched through till you die, at the Judgment Seat of God.

 Now, God certainly knows who is a repentant, forgiven believer and who is not, but those who are deceived by Satan are unaware of their eternal destination, thinking themselves to be good... until they hear, "Depart, I never knew you."

It's more about motivation than action. Even wicked, unrepentant folks will do good things if it furthers their personal agenda.

 Revelation 3:3 confirms the wheat and tares parable. In it, the owner of the field / master of the harvest gives instruction to leave the tares till harvest. When the desired crop is ripe the workers are to uproot the tares and dispose of them.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Why would the Book of Life written by God at the foundation of the world ever need names blotted out in the first place? 
I found this exerpt:
If some names can be blotted out, how can that happen? Those blotted out are no longer saved; that is, they are not written with the righteous and thus do not have eternal life/salvation, nor live in the paradise of God - in Heaven. “... To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life ... ” (Revelation 2:7) Thus, anyone could lose/reject salvation by refusing to live according to God’s Word. Making this latter statement may upset those who believe that it is impossible to fall from their faith. It's easy to get off base in some of our beliefs if we veer away from the Holy Scriptures, or become caught in human reasoning or neglect to focus on the overall, consistent message written in both the Old and New Testaments.
From this site:
http://www.restorationofthefamily.com/Articles/Name Removed.htm


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Do you believe that people who have not been born again already have their name written and recorded in the book of life?


Revelation 13:8 speaks of those whose names are written in it and those whose names are not. I am sure that there is a book in which all the names of God's elect are recorded and have been recorded "from the foundation of the world".  In this world there is always "a remnant according to the election of grace". (Romans 11:5) 

God has an elect people whom he will save, a people who cannot and will not perish with the world. (Matthew 24:22-24) 

Revelation 13:8 also speaks of the redemption of God's elect, "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world". Redemption was accomplished for God's elect before the world began. Christ was slain before the world was made. Those whose names were written in the book of life, for whom the Lamb was slain, cannot perish! It is eternal. There are no maybes, what ifs or might be.


----------



## StriperAddict

*We are eternal beings in Christ... Glory!*



gemcgrew said:


> It is eternal.


 
It certainly is.


<SUP class=versenum>*8 *</SUP>Therefore <SUP class=crossreference value='(S)'></SUP>do not be ashamed of the <SUP class=crossreference value='(T)'></SUP>testimony of our Lord or of me <SUP class=crossreference value='(U)'></SUP>His prisoner, but join with _me_ in <SUP class=crossreference value='(V)'></SUP>suffering for the <SUP class=crossreference value='(W)'></SUP>gospel according to the power of God, 
<SUP class=versenum>*9 *</SUP>who has <SUP class=crossreference value='(X)'></SUP>saved us and <SUP class=crossreference value='(Y)'></SUP>called us with a holy <SUP class=crossreference value='(Z)'></SUP>calling, <SUP class=crossreference value='(AA)'></SUP>_not according to our works_, but according to His own <SUP class=crossreference value='(AB)'></SUP>purpose and grace which was granted us in <SUP class=crossreference value='(AC)'></SUP>Christ Jesus from <SUP class=crossreference value='(AD)'></SUP>all eternity

These 2 verses speak to the eternal person we are in Christ. 
As a believer, when Christ died, so did we. (Col 3:3 <SUP class=versenum></SUP>For you have <SUP class=crossreference value='(D)'></SUP>died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.)
When Christ arose, so did we (Col 3:3  Therefore if you have been <SUP class=crossreference value='(A)'></SUP>raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above). 
When Christ comes back, so will we (Col 3:4<SUP class=versenum></SUP>When Christ, <SUP class=crossreference value='(E)'></SUP>who is our life, is revealed, <SUP class=crossreference value='(F)'></SUP>then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.)

Now for an interesting question... the scriptures say that Christ died before the foundations of the world, therefore...

When Christ was creating the world, 

_were were we??_

Think about it!


----------



## gemcgrew

StriperAddict said:


> When Christ was creating the world,
> 
> _were were we??_
> 
> Think about it!



I believe so. We were members when he was “in the beginning with God.”


----------



## barryl

Over 2300 hits on this thread, looks like the truth is being sought after. Convicted Consciences ? Amen !!! TRUTH John 17:17 The truth will set you free !! John 8:36 Glad we're back on topic !


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## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Over 2300 hits on this thread, looks like the truth is being sought after.



That's a good sign, but I hope people are not relying on this forum for truth.


----------



## barryl

*Answer*



Ronnie T said:


> I wholeheartedly disagree completely.
> It's just not so.
> 
> "Rightly Divide".  Do you post that phrase everytime someone disagrees with you?
> 
> The chapter is what it is.  There's much more that I could say but it's just not necessary on my part.  There is simply no basis for anyone to believe what you've stated.


Acts 2:36 KJV 1611 AV Therefore let all the "HOUSE OF ISRAEL" know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye{ ISRAEL} crucified, both Lord and Christ


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## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Acts 2:36 KJV 1611 AV Therefore let all the "HOUSE OF ISRAEL" know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye{ ISRAEL} crucified, both Lord and Christ



As I said before:



centerpin fan said:


> ... Peter goes on to say in verse 39 that this promise "is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."



There is not a Jewish gospel and a separate Gentile gospel.


----------



## barryl

*?*



centerpin fan said:


> That's a good sign, but I hope people are not relying on this forum for truth.


So are you saying that they should just listen to you ? I was referring to the word of God ! Stress is not good for anyone, especially gritting teeth when punching key board keys!!! Whoops, I got of topic again on this and  my last post,  SORRY !!!


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> So are you saying that they should just listen to you ?



No, I'm just saying that this is an internet bulletin board populated by outdoorsmen.  _Caveat emptor_.




barryl said:


> I was referring to the word of God !



See posts 2 and 9.


----------



## Ronnie T

centerpin fan said:


> No, I'm just saying that this is an internet bulletin board populated by outdoorsmen.  _Caveat emptor_.
> 
> See posts 2 and 9.



But everything posted on the worldwideweb is true!
I keep trying to convince my wife of that.

Case in point:  We've even discussed whether or not we all were there in the beginning when God created the universe!

And some of the posts in this subject believe that Jesus was addressing unsaved in the church in Smyrna, in Rev 3.  Some did not believe that.

This is a discussion of the extremes in beliefs concerning a persons Christian and eternal salvation.
The Bible should always be used to see and have the truth.


----------



## barryl

*No offence*



centerpin fan said:


> No, I'm just saying that this is an internet bulletin board populated by outdoorsmen.  _Caveat emptor_.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See posts 2 and 9.


No offence, but I'll have to go with the word of God,{not the Scholars Union}, KJV 1611 AV on this one, thats my final authority !!


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> No offence ...



None taken.


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> ... I'll have to go with the word of God,{not the Scholars Union}, KJV 1611 AV on this one ...



Nothing wrong with scholars.  The KJV translators were all outstanding scholars.


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## StriperAddict

centerpin fan said:


> No, I'm just saying that this is an internet bulletin board populated by outdoorsmen. _Caveat emptor_.


 
As am I  , and I hope to be a "outdoorsman" fool for Christ, having nothing yet possessing all things; .. Until "the day" 


*1 Corinthians 1:28-29*

<SUP class=versenum>*28 *</SUP>and the base things of <SUP class=crossreference value='(D)'></SUP>the world and the despised God has chosen, <SUP class=crossreference value='(E)'></SUP>the things that are not, so that He may <SUP class=crossreference value='(F)'></SUP>nullify the things that are, 
<SUP class=versenum>*29 *</SUP>so that <SUP class=crossreference value='(G)'></SUP>no <SUP class=footnote value='[a]'></SUP>man may boast before God.


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## Ronnie T

I was just studying Romans 14 for a Bible class tonight.
These verses are important for forum participants to remember.
It speaks to our agreeing and disagreeing and judging.

16 Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another.


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## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> I was just studying Romans 14 for a Bible class tonight.
> These verses are important for forum participants to remember.
> It speaks to our agreeing and disagreeing and judging.
> 
> 16 Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another.


















Just kidding. Have a great time at bible study.


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## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> No offence, but I'll have to go with the word of God,{not the Scholars Union}, KJV 1611 AV on this one, thats my final authority !!


 
I agree it's up to the individual to read the Bible and make his own decision. But for a new Christian or non-believer you can't  disregard the help of Man. The KJV was written by men with God controlling their pins if you will. Elders & preachers are men. The people on this forum are simple men and have helped me. You just can't deny the help of fellow Christians and tell people to just use the King James Version of the Holy Bible. It might work great for you but it is not the only avenue to a greater enlightenment of God the Father & his Son Jesus Christ.
The writers of the KJV of the Bible & other dead scholars are not the only enlightened Men to ever walk the Earth. Man is just as capable of performing miracles as Jesus himself. All it takes is the power of God manifest in a Man to do this.


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## barryl

*Well !*



Artfuldodger said:


> I agree it's up to the individual to read the Bible and make his own decision. But for a new Christian or non-believer you can't  disregard the help of Man. The KJV was written by men with God controlling their pins if you will. Elders & preachers are men. The people on this forum are simple men and have helped me. You just can't deny the help of fellow Christians and tell people to just use the King James Version of the Holy Bible. It might work great for you but it is not the only avenue to a greater enlightenment of God the Father & his Son Jesus Christ.
> The writers of the KJV of the Bible & other dead scholars are not the only enlightened Men to ever walk the Earth. Man is just as capable of performing miracles as Jesus himself. All it takes is the power of God manifest in a Man to do this.


Don't know about yours, but My GOD is able to preserve his word. 2 Peter 1:21


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## barryl

Amen Brother, beautiful analogy ! Its getting to the point just about everyone knows of Jesus. The only ones that have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ can be assured of the many blessings of knowing Him !!


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## irishredneck

I do not have the time, effort or livelihood to write back to some of the things Ive read in this thread. Seems to me that people are throwing out contradicting scriptures which have very little to do with anything unless they are read in their context.
The most important thing about reading or quoting scripture is reading it in its context, what is the book? Who wrote it? Who was it written to? What was the time period it was written? What events took place before, during & after? And WHAT IS THE ORIGINAL GREEK &/OR HEBREW TRANSLATION TO ENGLISH. If you read scripture in the language it was written you will be astounded at how much more clear things really are, verses you thought you knew how have completely different and sometimes opposite meanings. If more people done this, we would have very few disagreements.

Don’t get bound by bickering about scripture, we will never understand a fraction of the mind of God. Enjoy the simplicity of the Gospel. Jesus came & died for your and my sins. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God through Christ. He paid it all at the cross when he cried ‘It is finished!’, God remembers your sin NO MORE they are cast as far as the east is from the west. Enjoy his love and grace every moment. We are blessed


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## Ronnie T

irishredneck said:


> I do not have the time, effort or livelihood to write back to some of the things Ive read in this thread. Seems to me that people are throwing out contradicting scriptures which have very little to do with anything unless they are read in their context.
> The most important thing about reading or quoting scripture is reading it in its context, what is the book? Who wrote it? Who was it written to? What was the time period it was written? What events took place before, during & after? And WHAT IS THE ORIGINAL GREEK &/OR HEBREW TRANSLATION TO ENGLISH. If you read scripture in the language it was written you will be astounded at how much more clear things really are, verses you thought you knew how have completely different and sometimes opposite meanings. If more people done this, we would have very few disagreements.
> 
> Don’t get bound by bickering about scripture, we will never understand a fraction of the mind of God. Enjoy the simplicity of the Gospel. Jesus came & died for your and my sins. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God through Christ. He paid it all at the cross when he cried ‘It is finished!’, God remembers your sin NO MORE they are cast as far as the east is from the west. Enjoy his love and grace every moment. We are blessed



Can you agree with this.....

That Christ came and died on the cross so that any person who will can come to God?  That through Jesus Christ God said:  "Come to me, all who will".  "Draw near to Me".  "I will give you life as you never dreamed".  "I will give you supreme purpose in life".  "And I will forgive your sins".


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## Artfuldodger

irishredneck said:


> The most important thing about reading or quoting scripture is reading it in its context, what is the book? Who wrote it? Who was it written to? What was the time period it was written? What events took place before, during & after? And WHAT IS THE ORIGINAL GREEK &/OR HEBREW TRANSLATION TO ENGLISH. If you read scripture in the language it was written you will be astounded at how much more clear things really are, verses you thought you knew how have completely different and sometimes opposite meanings. If more people done this, we would have very few disagreements.


 I don't see how people get into the modern translations being the only word of God either. The problem I have is trying to decide who God was talking to. Not only who but how it pertains to me.
Edited to remove reference to a specific Bible version.


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## barryl

*How to know*



Artfuldodger said:


> I don't see how people get into the KJV being the only word of God either. The problem I have is trying to decide who God was talking to. Not only who but how it pertains to me.


We are not supposed to be discussing versions, remember ? If you don't see its because you don't want to. Don't act like you can't find out why, out of site , out of mind !! One more time, DOCTRINALLY, SPIRITUALLY, and Historically !! Problem is you haven't got the answers you want to HEAR !!!!! Praying the HOLY SPIRIT will bring you to the knowledge of the truth !!!!!


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## Lowjack

John Chapter 10

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

Good enough for me.


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## Lowjack

35Who shall separateus from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?36As it is written , For thy sake we are killedall the day long; we are accountedas sheep for the slaughter.37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerorsthrough him that lovedus.38For I am persuaded , that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present , nor things to come , 39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separateus from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Even Better for me.


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## Ronnie T

We spend so much of our allotted time deciding what and how God is taking care of His stuff.
How tired He must be of running into us as He tries to go about His business.

Truly, a saved person should know that they are saved.
BUT, according to Jesus, not all will who believe that are.

Jesus will 'thin' us out on that day.


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## StriperAddict

Ronnie T said:


> We spend so much of our allotted time deciding what and how God is taking care of His stuff.


 
I'm going off the grid cuz I just saw something with the above excellent comment that bears a look.  (Sorry If I'm doing an off topic jig again )

I think we spend a lot of time worring over or guilt-ing over the stuff God took care of, namely sin & it's consequences.  
And could it be... that the Holy Spirit is trying to reach us (when we miss the mark) with the righteousness we have (in Christ ALONE), than to beat us up over and over again?
I wonder who is really doing the beating?
And I wonder, by doing so, are we saying we must "add" to the things God has already taken care of?  (A foolish pride smiley face ought go here)

I just wonder how much of His joy we miss by being thus occupied.  I wonder... shall I ever know (to a deeper satisfaction, sans my pitiful impatience) the fullness of:
"It is finished"


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## barryl

*You?*

Col 2: 8-11 Has this operation been performed on you? Guess what, if it has then you can be assured, why, because you had nothin' to do with it!! Now you can subscribe {as the doubters say} to OSAS and quit calling GOD a liar!!!!!


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## centerpin fan

Back from the dead.


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## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Col 2: 8-11 Has this operation been performed on you?



Yep.


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## barryl

*I'm here*



centerpin fan said:


> Yep.


As Medea says, Hallahluyer, C. P.


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## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> Col 2: 8-11 Has this operation been performed on you? Guess what, if it has then you can be assured, why, because you had nothin' to do with it!! Now you can subscribe {as the doubters say} to OSAS and quit calling GOD a liar!!!!!




You accidently chopped that last sentence in half by not including verse 12, so I included it for you.  

Col 2:8-12
8  See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.


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## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> Truly, a saved person should know that they are saved.
> BUT, according to Jesus, not all will who believe that are.
> 
> Jesus will 'thin' us out on that day.



How do you explain that contradiction? Almost everyone I come in contact considers themselves Christians because they accepted Jesus as a child. I'm not one to judge but some of them don't show it by their actions(works). Am I to assume some of them are of the group you mentioned above or are they just lost sheep waiting to be gathered at a later date? When they are gathered will it be all up to God or will said individual have any part in the rescue?
Matthew 7: 21 tells us we must do the will of the Father.(works?)
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

    John 14:21  Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

    John 15:10  If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

    1 John 5:3  This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

    1 John 1:6  If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.


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## Artfuldodger

I like this article, excerpt:
If I believe that water is necessary for life, doesn’t it follow that I need to act on my belief and actually drink water in order to live? Yes, of course it does! I can’t just say that I believe in the life sustaining principle of water and then ignore my thirst; if I do I will die. The best approach would be to regularly drink the water so that I never thirst . . . So too with faith in Jesus Christ. I must acknowledge Him as Lord and Savior, but then I must do as He tells me or eventually I will die. How can I call Him Lord and not do as He commands?

Build Your House on Rock!

“Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock. The rains fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. But it did not collapse; it had been set solidly on rock” (Mt. 7:24–25). What words? We are reading from the conclusion of the Sermon on the Mount (Mt. 5–7), which is full of positive and negative moral commands. By way of a list: the Beatitudes, rules for anger, wealth, the following of the Ten Commandments, adultery, marriage and divorce, oaths, revenge, forgiveness, love of enemies, almsgiving, prayer, fasting, the service of God or Mammon, false judgement, profaning the holy, living without worry, the Narrow Gate, false prophets, self deception, and so on. . . .

Jesus insists that we must do what He tells us if we wish to stand with Him in justification on the day of judgement.

http://www.cuf.org/homilies/archive/060108.asp


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## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> How do you explain that contradiction? Almost everyone I come in contact considers themselves Christians because they accepted Jesus as a child. I'm not one to judge but some of them don't show it by their actions(works). Am I to assume some of them are of the group you mentioned above or are they just lost sheep waiting to be gathered at a later date? When they are gathered will it be all up to God or will said individual have any part in the rescue?
> Matthew 7: 21 tells us we must do the will of the Father.(works?)
> King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
> Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
> 
> John 14:21  Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
> 
> John 15:10  If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.
> 
> 1 John 5:3  This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,
> 
> 1 John 1:6  If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.



Jesus presented several "kingdom parables".
One of the was the dragnet:  "The kingdom of heaven is like a great net being pulled in from the sea."

One parable was of the wheat and the tares.  The listeners were eager to do the separating of the wheat and weeds.  Jesus told them they weren't qualified.


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## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> Jesus presented several "kingdom parables".
> One of the was the dragnet:  "The kingdom of heaven is like a great net being pulled in from the sea."
> 
> One parable was of the wheat and the tares.  The listeners were eager to do the separating of the wheat and weeds.  Jesus told them they weren't qualified.



And in this future separation, who will be separated? 
Matthew 13:41
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

And what will happen to these offenders? 
Matthew 13:42
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

There might be some people who think they have salvation in the discarded  group. If they happen to be offending God with iniquities.
There is condemnation of the wicked by God. I would also add that God is the only one who knows who he'll separate in this future separation, not us.


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## StriperAddict

Artfuldodger said:


> And in this future separation, who will be separated?
> Matthew 13:41
> King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
> The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
> 
> And what will happen to these offenders?
> Matthew 13:42
> King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
> And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
> 
> There might be some people who think they have salvation in the discarded group. If they happen to be offending God with iniquities.
> There is condemnation of the wicked by God. I would also add that God is the only one who knows who he'll separate in this future separation, not us.


 
A new creation in Christ has a new nature and knows he belongs to God, as God knows them that are His.  The statement in scripture "and let everyone who names the Name of Christ depart from iniquity" is not at all ADDing to the work of the cross, they do so BECAUSE of the work of the cross.

Your post sounds like we "must" keep on "not doing acts of" sin (law) to keep us out of "hot place", and that is totally error from the counsel of the 66 books of the bible.
Some may suggest I am talking cheap grace, but I am again putting the entire weight of the sin burden/new man equation right squarely on Christ's shoulders, NOT ours.

I'll get back to this later, or maybe a look at Rom ch 5 is in order on a new post


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## Artfuldodger

How do you explain John 14: 15?
If you love me, you will obey my commandments.


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## Artfuldodger

It funny that the OSAS Christians argue against Pre-election. The only difference is when the election takes place and if we have anything to do about it. Either you have  control  over your destiny or you don't.


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## StriperAddict

Artfuldodger said:


> How do you explain John 14: 15?
> If you love me, you will obey my commandments.


 
Again, taken that verse (and others like it) into the counsel of the entire word, God is saying His kids will DELIGHT to obey Him, not out of law, or "must do", but _out of love_.

And yes, either we believe He did the entire work, 

or,

 we _add_ to it,  to stay "safe"
...  good gosh, what a burden He never intended!


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## Ronnie T

The most agonizing problem about the assurance of salvation is not the problem of whether the objective facts of Christianity are true (God exists, Christ is God, Christ died for sinners, Christ rose from the dead, Christ saves forever all who believe, etc.). Those facts are the utterly crucial bedrock of our faith. But the really agonizing problem of assurance is whether I personally am saved by those facts.

This boils down to whether I have saving faith. What makes this agonizing - for many in the history of the church and today - is that there are people who think they have saving faith but don't. For example, in Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus says, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.'"

So the agonizing question for some is: do I really have saving faith? Is my faith real? Am I self-deceived? Some well-intentioned people try to lessen the problem by making faith a mere decision to affirm certain truths, like the truth: Jesus is God, and he died for my sins. Some also try to assist assurance by denying that any kind of life-change is really necessary to demonstrate the reality of faith. So they find a way to make James 2:17 mean something other than what is seems to mean: "Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead." But these strategies to help assurance backfire. They deny some Scripture; and even the minimal faith they preserve can be agonized over and doubted by the tormented soul. They don't solve the problem, and they lose truth. And, perhaps worst of all, they sometimes give assurance to people who should not have it.

Instead of minimizing the miraculous, deep, transforming nature of faith, and instead of denying that there are necessary life-changes that show the reality of faith, we should tackle the problem of assurance another way. We should begin by realizing that there is an objective warrant for resting in God's forgiveness of my sins, and there is a subjective warrant for God's forgiveness of my sins. 

Go here for more:  http://www.desiringgod.org/resource...onizing-problem-of-the-assurance-of-salvation


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## StriperAddict

Ronnie, I think I get what you're saying. My only hesitation with it is that it seems to say I have to have faith "in MY faith", and then the object of my salvation turns around to be myself and NOT the fact that Jesus went to the cross and delivered me from death.

I don't see any arrogance in keeping the issue as that which comes from heaven, and that by His work he has truely "finished" it, and nothing is left for me to "do" (works unto salvation ? no, rather... works as a result of salvation).
I'm all for getting my behavior in gear to who I am in Him... but, never, NEVER am I defined by what I DO, but by the new creation, given a new soul/spirit by the Spirit of God.

The "who I am in Him" is someone who is now established by redemption birthright in the Spirit ... as a redeemed, holy, washed, and with the righteousness of God in Christ... believer, entitled to the full fellowship with Christ by His work ALONE.

This fact is as true as it's pre-redemption counterpart...  I once was a sinner established in the sin stained birthright of the first Adam, 
but that is now put to death by the body of the Lord.


I just can't take any comfort in wondering if I have "faith enough" for salvation.  That is a wicked burden, in my opnion.

I received Christ : "But as *many* as *received Him*, to them He gave the right to become children of God" Jn 1:12

So... there is no boasting in that,
in fact the opposite is true...
I am totally incapable of saving myself,
"keeping myself" saved (what a foolish thought)
and totally incapable of living the Life... without His finished work.

Sorry if I'm sounding like a broken record.  But I'm passionate about a believer's standing and completed new nature... in the Lord.  Amen...


Peace, and a good weekend be to you and yours.

~Walter


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## Ronnie T

I think my point, and Bro. John Piper's point is there are a lot of people(televangelist for one) who mistakenly tell a person to pray a particular prayer and become a Christian.

Salvation is a life changing occurance.  Faith isn't just a word.  Faith and trust in Jesus is a life changing occurance.  Faith cannot be contained in a word.

Faith, as God knows it, is far more than many people define it today.  Faith in Christ is much more than faith in the correctness of my wrist watch keeping the correct time.
Faith in Christ is explained in the entire book of Romans.  And it's also explained in the entire book of 1 Corinthians.  And also in Galatians, etc.

In 1 John 1 John said:  "If you walk in the light, as Jesus Himself is in the light, His blood will continually cleanse you of all your sins.................   "Faith".


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## Artfuldodger

StriperAddict said:


> Again, taken that verse (and others like it) into the counsel of the entire word, God is saying His kids will DELIGHT to obey Him, not out of law, or "must do", but _out of love_.
> 
> And yes, either we believe He did the entire work,
> 
> or,
> 
> we _add_ to it,  to stay "safe"
> ...  good gosh, what a burden He never intended!


I truly wish I didn't have that burden.
It would be nice if all Christians kept God's commandments out of love. I think that's part of it. I keep them out of fear also. Part of my burden. The whole concept of Christianity is fear of he!! as i've learned on this forum. In other words  forum members said they wouldn't be Christians if there was no he!!. They wouldn't do it just for reaching Heaven.
analogy: Why would a Christian man that loves his wife go with another woman? How many men don't go with other women out of fear of getting caught?


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## Artfuldodger

In Matthew 7:21-23, I think Jesus is telling these people & us that the reason all Christians won't go to Heaven is because they have no love. They are performing actions, commandments, & works for show. 
It just occurred to me that maybe they are doing them out of fear. This could be a lesson for me. Try to follow the commandments out of love instead of fear. Either way they still have to be followed.


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## Ronnie T

Follow the commands because you're a new man in Christ.  Because you love Him, and since you love Him, you love everyone.  
Follow the commands because you're a disciple, and disciples always seek the life of the one they follow.
Follow the commands because you trust God.

I don't seek to follow the commands so that I can go to heaven.  I seek to follow God's commands because it must now be my great quest in life.  Though I often fail miserably.


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## barryl

*Wow!*

I used the word of God, I asked a simple yes or no question. And look out, I get a lot of rabbit track dialogue, circular reasoning. A lot of you people are to smart for your own good! Col. 2: 8-11,8. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9. For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. 10. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11. In whom also  ye are circumsiced with the circumcisim made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcism of Christ: Now there you are, I'm not talking about the BAPTISM of the Spirit! This thread is about assurance of Salvation. If you read Romams Ch. 10 and understand it? If you don't forsake your own selfrighteousness and except Gods perfect Righteousness........?


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## hobbs27

Assurance comes from above and within, it's the peace you have with our Lord that everything will be ok when faced with final judgement.If you live your life in doubt of your personal salvation then you have no peace, with no peace in your soul you're not much good for the present kingdom of God.If you're not at peace...get it, check up and ask the Lord if all is good, and to lift the burden that is weighing you down.
Im glad He communes with us and we have a personal relationship in Him, and we dont have to do some little two step dance or sign a contract with him to get it...all we have to do is let Him in when He stands at the door and knocks, then we should live our lives being obedient to His voice, and peace we will know.


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## Artfuldodger

Here is a list of things we should do & not do in the New Testament. We should do them out of love. One of the things listed is a verse to fear God. I'm not sure what will happen if we don't do these things. It is a long list and would seem impossible.
http://www.cai.org/bible-studies/1050-new-testament-commands

Another list. Scroll to the bottom:
http://www.bethelministries.com/nt_commandments.htm


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## Artfuldodger

Many Christians have been deceived to believe that they are unconditionally secure if they have been given eternal life. Their rationale goes something like this: ‘I was not saved by works, and I cannot keep my salvation by works.’ This is essentially true, but what Christians in this camp do not realize is that even though we are secure in Christ, our security is conditional.
"The Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons" (1 Tim. 4:1). This verse is speaking of true Christians because people who have never been saved never have had "the faith" from which to fall away.

Jesus said if we abide in Him, He will abide in us. It would be nonsensical for our Lord to make this conditional promise, if it was impossible for us to not abide in Him. Likewise, Jesus warned that he who overcomes during the Great Tribulation will not have his name erased from the Book of Life (Rev. 3:5).

Those whose names are in the Book of Life, have been given eternal life. Those names of Christians that are in the Book of Life (who enter the Great Tribulation) will remain in the Book, if he or she is an overcomer during that most terrible time. It would be nonsensical and defy rational thinking to believe that Christ would warn us about our name being blotted out of the Book of Life if that was impossible.
We can thank our Lord and Savior that we have eternal security, but it is not unconditional. 
http://www.bethelministries.com/trimming_calvins_tulip.htm


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## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> Here is a list of things we should do & not do in the New Testament. We should do them out of love. One of the things listed is a verse to fear God. I'm not sure what will happen if we don't do these things. It is a long list and would seem impossible.
> http://www.cai.org/bible-studies/1050-new-testament-commands
> 
> Another list. Scroll to the bottom:
> http://www.bethelministries.com/nt_commandments.htm



Imagine if similar to those lists were required regards riding a bycicle?

All that is required to ride is to set one's heart on it. (Fear, as you mentioned, needs not to dominate the endeavor.) 

What is important, in my view is to get to know God and getting to know the word is a means to it, but not the goal.

Walking with God the body forms a memory not unlike the hand which keeps many memories and actions without ever having read a thing.


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## Artfuldodger

gordon 2 said:


> Imagine if similar to those lists were required regards riding a bycicle?
> 
> All that is required to ride is to set one's heart on it. (Fear, as you mentioned, needs not to dominate the endeavor.)
> 
> What is important, in my view is to get to know God and getting to know the word is a means to it, but not the goal.
> 
> Walking with God the body forms a memory not unlike the hand which keeps many memories and actions without ever having read a thing.



I would agree if living the Christian life it would be second nature. I usually know when i'm doing somthing I
shouldn't be doing. My heart tells me so or that little angel on my shoulder.


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## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> I would agree if living the Christian life it would be second nature. I usually know when i'm doing somthing I
> shouldn't be doing. My heart tells me so or that little angel on my shoulder.



You know how you can get around in your house (home) in pitch darkness. Your whole body tells you where to go--it is second nature or even first nature to it? So it is with dicipleship and the Kingdom. The problems here are usually folk who talk to themselves, second guess and in so doing mistake the way.

The fear of God cannot be what a lot of folk make it out to be. If we are liberated for Jesus, surely we are freed of fearing God and his way.


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## StriperAddict

I am still enjoying this thread, some great posts. 

Art, I certainly agreed with what you shared in the last few posts.

But up to this point, what happened?   .....


Artfuldodger said:


> ....This is essentially true, but what  Christians in this camp do not realize is that even though we are secure  in Christ, our security is conditional.


Christ has already be punished for our sins (future ones also) on the cross once and for all.  God will discipline those He loves which is totally different from eternal or human punishment.  

What "conditions" need to be met outside of the cross to keep you secure?  Can you see that any answer except the cross is _works_? 

"For by grace you have been saved... thru faith, NOT of yourselves, it is the GIFT of God, not as the result of WORKS, that no man may BOAST Eph 2:8,9 (added emphasis)

"Having BEGUN by the Spirit, are you made perfect by the flesh?" (own doing?)




Artfuldodger said:


> "The Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from  the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of  demons" (1 Tim. 4:1).


If I make the choice and not renew my mind in truth, then, even as a believer the lines of heavenly communication are cut and I begin to suffer a life without dependence, without intimacy, without hearing His voice (spirit to Spirit life if you will) clearly.  As a son of His I'm sure I would miss the presence of the Lord in a big way. And on top of all that, I'd really start looking like the "world".

Lovingly, God moves to bring me back... not to be "saved" all over again, but by discipline He comes to me like the father of the prodigal and desires I confess my waywardness and carnality.  Upon that confession the communication "pipe" is cleaned out and I will again know the sense of blessing and intimacy I had before.  
Is this too arrogant a thing to say?  Do we really believe we have full fellowship restored (again, not resaved out of spiritual "lostness", but fellowship... big difference!), 
or do we wallow in guilt... listening to him who hates us say... "you really blew it this time!  You better DO right to get God back!"

It is a real lie of the pit to ever believe God is never satisfied with me, or He is impatient and angry with me.  It is clear from scripture that God is patient and slow to anger (Exodus 34:6, 2Pete 3:9), and out of His love and His OWN work He has made me accepted, righteous and perfect in Him. (Eph. 1:6, Heb. 4:10, 2Cor 5:21)

Art, I understand your passion for right but I'd encourage you to really enjoy your relationship with Christ and just let His life flow.  Christ is in the "flesh crucifixion" business, not in the "religion" business!  In walking that out, there is no "rule nor law", and the freedom to be had is out of this world.  It is not, and ever will be by mans religious works that you are "accepted in the beloved" (Eph. 1:6) 


Isaiah 58:8
“Then your light will break out like the dawn,
And your recovery will speedily spring forth;
And your righteousness will go before you;
The glory of the Lord will be your rear guard.

Peace


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## Artfuldodger

What happened, my Arminianism started showing, I guess. My belief in free will allows me to have free-will to walk away from God. That's conditional. Keeping all the New Testament commandments, i'll have to pray and do some soul searching on that one. Jesus did die for our sins, future sins too. I just feel deep down in my heart that I must do something. I can't help it. The list on the Bethel Ministries link haunts my soul to do what God requires. I keep hearing, if you believe then you will follow the commandments. If you love God then you will follow his commandments. But I also know that not every person who thinks they are a Christian is a Christian. Jesus said this so how do you know unconditionally that you are? I'll admit it is a burden i would care to live without. 
I realize i'm in a minority in not believing in OSAS or eternal security. In earlier times people didn't believe this either because of verses like this:
The Lord is with you while you are with Him. If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will forsake you. 2 Chron. 15:2. 
Jesus said to him, “No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.” Luke 9:62.
http://earlychurch.com/eternal-security.php
John Calvin might have been the first teacher of this belief.
I believe as the Pentecostals:
United Pentecostal Churches teach that salvation believe that salvation can be lost. If a born-again believer STOPS believing and turns his back on Christ, the UPC, as well as other Pentecostal and Holiness bodies, believe salvation can be lost. The Believer, therefore, is kept saved and secure by God.... AS LONG AS this believer CONTINUES to believe in the Lord. This differs from Baptists and others who would teach 'UNCONDITIONAL ETERNAL SECURITY' which says the Christian is ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED, and will make it to Heaven once he is truly saved, whether he stays faithful to the Lord or not.(end quote)
If you have the right to quit following God's commandments then you have voluntarily left God because you quit loving God. You as a Christian you have the right to quit loving God. No one can snatch him from his hands. God isn't talking about yourself. I believe you must stay faithful to God  and keep his commandments to enter Heaven.
OSAS is a new Church concept. There will be many people in He!! who believe in Eternal Security. Jesus said this. 
Matthew 7:21, “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”
What is the will of God that Jesus is talking about that one must do to get into Heaven?
One good example I can think of is "forgiveness" Jesus told us to forgive people who trespass or sin against us. He went one step farther and said "if you don't forgive others, I won't forgive you of your sins. True as a Christian you should want to do this out of love. True as a Christian if you don't do this, you want be forgiven.
You don't get a free pass to Heaven just because you accept Jesus. You must back it up by living up to it. I've thought about it some more and it doesn't matter why you live a Christian life just as long as you do. You should do it out of love, but fear is an ok reason too. You should do it out of honor, embarrassment, fear, & love. The greatest is love.


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## hobbs27

What is salvation to you artfuldodger? Do you believe it is something that happens to you on this side of life, or is it something determined when you pass on and face judgement?


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## Ronnie T

2Tim 4:
7  I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; 8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.


1 Corinthians 9:25-27
25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

1 Timothy 6:12
12 Fight the good fight of faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.


*The "assurance" of salvation is seen in what and how God has affected your life through His Son.  One's "assurance of salvation will continually grow as they experience the closeness of their heavenly father in their heart and life.
Without that, a person will always question their own faith and belief.


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## StriperAddict

> What is the will of God that Jesus is talking about that one must do to get into Heaven?


 Jesus said... this is the will of God: to believe on Him whom He hath sent.



Artfuldodger said:


> You should do it out of love, but fear is an ok reason too.



Wow. 

I thought the bible teaches there is no fear in love?

Me, I cannot enjoy a god I'm afraid of, work for, or in any way become pressured into thinking my relationship with that god comes down to how well I "do" things.. religious or otherwise.  That's the trap of the one who despises us (satan)... and he does so because we belong to the One (Christ) who has set us free.

I think I'm gonna  dig some more into the whole sin nature/Christ nature thing and prayerfully put some thoughts together on another post.  It may be ok to post some thoughts/scripture here, but it looks like the OSAS issue has run its course for now.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> What is salvation to you artfuldodger? Do you believe it is something that happens to you on this side of life, or is it something determined when you pass on and face judgement?



Salvation to me is , free from going to He!! and spending an eternity in Heaven. We're gonna go to one or the other. I will be going to one of those places after I die and wake up from soul sleep when Jesus returns to Earth. Then I will be judged by God thru Jesus as Romans 2: 16 explains:
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
My salvation will began at my judgement since that is when I will or will not be going to He!!. 
Now the things i will be judged on started when I accepted Jesus. I will be judged on how well I keep Gods New Testament commands, how well I have repented from my sins, & how well I have confessed my sins. But wait that's not all, I will also be judged on how well I have forgiven others, how well I have loved others, how I've shown kindness, helped poor & sick people, how well i've witnessed, and generally just doing right from wrong.


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## Artfuldodger

Luke 13:3
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Romans 11:22
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Hebrews 6:12
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.


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## Artfuldodger

StriperAddict said:


> Jesus said... this is the will of God: to believe on Him whom He hath sent.
> Wow.
> I thought the bible teaches there is no fear in love?
> Me, I cannot enjoy a god I'm afraid of, work for, or in any way become pressured into thinking my relationship with that god comes down to how well I "do" things.. religious or otherwise.  That's the trap of the one who despises us (satan)... and he does so because we belong to the One (Christ) who has set us free.


My belief in Jesus requires me to trust & obey him and yes "I FEAR GOD." I didn't write the next paragraph but it sums up my belief.
Quote:Woe to those who call themselves Christians who have no fear of God; who continue to sin throughout their lives, thinking Christ is their excuse to sin; who have no fear of God's wrath and punishment for continuing to sin; who fear those who kill the body, but do not fear him who can destroy the body and soul, casting them into He!!. It is not too late to wake up. (End Quote)
 Proverbs 8:13
The fear of the LORD is to hate evil. I hate pride, arrogance, and the evil way.

Proverbs 3:7
Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the LORD and depart from evil.

Deuteronomy 13:4 
You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him.

Psalm 86:11
Teach me Your way, O Lord, that I may walk and live in Your truth; direct and unite my heart to fear and honor Your name.

Ecclesiastes 12:12-13
And further, my son, be admonished by these. Of making many books there is no end, and much study is wearisome to the flesh.
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, for this is man’s all. 

2 Corinthians 7:1
Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Psalm 119:120
My flesh trembles for fear of You, And I am afraid of Your judgments.

Psalm 33:18
Behold, the eye of the LORD is on those who fear Him, on those who hope in His mercy.

Phil. 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

I'm working out my salvation with FEAR & trembling.
I do have hope as often mentioned in the Bible but I don't have assurance until the end. I could see where one who has assurance wouldn't fear God though. Like the pre-chosen elect they shouldn't fear God either.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> My salvation will began at my judgement since that is when I will or will not be going to He!!.
> Now the things i will be judged on started when I accepted Jesus. I will be judged on how well I keep Gods New Testament commands, how well I have repented from my sins, & how well I have confessed my sins. But wait that's not all, I will also be judged on how well I have forgiven others, how well I have loved others, how I've shown kindness, helped poor & sick people, how well i've witnessed, and generally just doing right from wrong.



Thanks for the reply.This shows me where we differ and why it would be possible to lose salvation in the way you understand it.
 The way I understand salvation, it would not be something that could be lost. I believe through our faith and His grace we are born again {spiritually} baptised in the fire.Our Judgement of Heaven and he11- came at the victory won at Calvary, and the great white throne judgement is a seperation of those that accepted Jesus and those that did not.Once you have the faith and accept the knock, you become a new creature, with a new name, and Christ dwells within and there is two men in one.One outward man that will die{flesh} and one inner man that will live forever with Christ{spirit}.
 This explains why we understand assurance differently, because once you're born into a family you can never be unborn into it, but if you are Judged after your life here, and only welcomed into the family at that point...then you may be Judged unfit.


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## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> Thanks for the reply.This shows me where we differ and why it would be possible to lose salvation in the way you understand it.
> The way I understand salvation, it would not be something that could be lost. I believe through our faith and His grace we are born again {spiritually} baptised in the fire.Our Judgement of Heaven and he11- came at the victory won at Calvary, and the great white throne judgement is a seperation of those that accepted Jesus and those that did not.Once you have the faith and accept the knock, you become a new creature, with a new name, and Christ dwells within and there is two men in one.One outward man that will die{flesh} and one inner man that will live forever with Christ{spirit}.
> This explains why we understand assurance differently, because once you're born into a family you can never be unborn into it, but if you are Judged after your life here, and only welcomed into the family at that point...then you may be Judged unfit.



You said:  "Once you have the faith".....
I think Art's thoughts have to do with what's the actuality of right here, right now.  The question is:  "What is there for me to have assurance of my salvation right now in my life, at the age of 50 or 60 years old.  I might not remember my thoughts or the events of my conversion, so where is my assurance today.

Doesn't God give me something in my life today to give me assurance of my continued salvation?


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## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> Doesn't God give me something in my life today to give me assurance of my continued salvation?



Yes! I read your post explaining the continued relationship above and agree 100%. Through obedience, worship, and prayer we grow spiritually.


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## barryl

*Footprints in the Sand*

Ya'll ever read the poem Footprints in The Sand? This is a beautiful allegorical poem. You{We} thought there were two sets of footprints in the sand, no only one set. Guess who's? love them icons!


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## barryl

barryl said:


> Ya'll ever read the poem Footprints in The Sand? This is a beautiful allegorical poem. You{We} thought there were two sets of footprints in the sand, no only one set. Guess who's? love them icons!


No one but a few seems to want to believe Sound Bible Doctrine, thought a little poetry would help!


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## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Ya'll ever read the poem Footprints in The Sand? This is a beautiful allegorical poem.



Agreed.


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## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> ... love them icons!



I think you mean "emoticons".  Icons are quite a bit different.


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## barryl

centerpin fan said:


> I think you mean "emoticons".  Icons are quite a bit different.


I think thats one of the reasons I like you C.P.! Yeah, what you said!!


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## barryl

*Has anyone ?*

Ever thought that maybe the reason anyone is not assured of salvation is, not applying scripture correctly. Time and time again spiritualizing passages that are directly to the Jews{faith and works} to prove your point. Every time I look at these forums I see scripture misapplied, Tribulation, 2nd Advent, Millennium to {loss of salvation} Now I don't know it all as some have  suggested that I think I do. I'll tell you this much, It's not from a lack "studying to show myself approved" to "rightly divide the word of TRUTH" After the Rapture on, that is what it is going to take{faith and WORKS} to hold out to the end. 
That is pure true Bible Doctrine. One of the craziest things I have ever heard of is people paying tithes and offerings to sit week in week out to listen to  somebody tell them how to get to Heaven, but can't tell you can be assured!! There was a time I used to do that, heres how it changed for me!! 2 Tim. 2:15


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## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Ever thought that maybe the reason anyone is not assured of salvation is, not applying scripture correctly.



I think this all the time, but everybody believes that _they_ are the ones "applying scripture correctly".


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## barryl

*Hey C.P.*



centerpin fan said:


> I think this all the time, but everybody believes that _they_ are the ones "applying scripture correctly".


I know, I know, but are they really? I've wondered where you've been.


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## Lowjack

Salvation belongs to the Lord," (Psalm 3:8).


When someone appeals to God and seeks forgiveness in Jesus, his sins are removed, he is cleansed, his relationship with God is restored, and he is made a new creature (2 Cor. 5:17). All of this is the work of God, not man.

The Bible has a phrase that describes the non-Christian.  It is 'natural man'. In 1 Cor. 2:14 Paul says, "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."

Our human condition can be compared to a drop of poison in a glass of water: all the water is poisoned but it is not as bad as it could be.  The water is incapable of being good.  We, too, are incapable of really being good.

When Jesus' disciples asked Him who can be saved, He replied, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible," (Matt. 19:26). That is why salvation rests in God alone by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9).


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## Hunting Teacher

StriperAddict said:


> This is wrong on so many levels.  The main one being we "got saved by grace, but we need to live by law to keep it". At least that's what the above seems to say.  Correct me if I got that wrong, but if not, good grief, no wonder the church of Christ is powerless!!  They start in grace/the Spirit, and then live in the power of "themselves" to keep grace!
> "Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected by the flesh (or law?)"??
> 
> Sorry, saved by grace and kept by grace is brought to mankind by only one final sacrifice by the Lord Jesus.
> Should I sin again after my salvation (which I and you and every believer has done), we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, who must needs NEVER die again, and since we are "crucified" with Him, we will never die again _*spiritually*_ either.
> 
> And as to the nonsense about the sinning like a truck driver after grace... well, each believer was born again with a new nature, that nature, the new man, never wants to go against the will of God ever again. Check Romans 7 on that... that chapter is where Paul found out where the power of sin still resides (on our bodies) , and where the victory resides, in our soul and spirit... made perfect by the One offering of the body and blood of Christ, once for all!
> 
> If our future sins have to be "paid for" again, that makes a mockery of that one time death and resurrection of the Lord, because the scriptures teach us clearly that our past, present and future sins were ALL covered at the cross; Jesus can never die again.
> 
> Also see Rom 6: 1,2.


Wow SA! I wish I could put it in words that clearly! You nailed the truth.


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## Artfuldodger

And yet this "new man" with the "new nature" continues to sin. He never wants to go against the will of God ever again but he still does. Why does man do this even with the "Holy Spirit" dwelling in him? Why do these changed men still lie, cheat, steal, gamble, fight with their wife, commit adultery, never humble themselves, never forgive others, and never help poor people?


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## Artfuldodger

Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Why would this teaching of not going to Heaven pertain to one group of people and not another group?


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## Artfuldodger

I look at it more as a covenant with God. There are two parties involved and I must keep my end of the covenant. There are some "ifs" in my covenant with God.
Psalm 103:17-18

King James Version (KJV)

17 But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

18 To such as keep his covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them.


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## Artfuldodger

Do any of you believe as these Christians:  Someone who denies OSAS has never trusted the real Christ and has never been saved. Did you even listen to 1 John 5:9-13. Christ is eternal life. John﻿ 17:3-4. Believing﻿ on a NON-eternal Christ is the wrong Christ. 2 Corinthians 11:1-5. Disagreeing with this means you are calling God a liar. A liar cannot save someone. Hebrews 4:15. 
They are talking about Jeff Paton who says things like: 
Others have stated the case even more strongly. They follow the idea of the "gospel" equivalent to its logical end, they say, " If you do not believe that once a person is saved he is always saved, then you have NEVER really trusted in Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, you are lost in your sins, and you are heading straight to - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -," and another way it is frequently stated is, "Eternal Security is the Gospel!" It was quite enlightening for me to see the depth in which some people take this! I never knew that there were some people that believed in unconditional security that considered anyone that was not in agreement with them as hopelessly doomed to an eternal - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -! I have always taken a strong stance on the issue since the truth of the matter was revealed to me from the Scriptures.
What are we then to do with all of Church history? Are we to say that some of the greatest evangelists of all time were never really saved because they denied this doctrine? What of John and Charles Wesley? With all of the "Once Saved Always Saved" people around, why would God use these men so powerfully when He could have used "believers"? How do we explain the fact that the Early Church knew nothing of such a doctrine? How do we explain the consistency of First century believers in the denial of Eternal Security, and the strange absence of any doctrinal witness to validate the belief of OSAS in the Early Church?
How then is OSAS a substitute for grace? Grace by definition is "unmerited favor." It is God reaching out to offer that which we do not deserve. It cannot be earned, and it cannot be merited. The passage, "For by grace are ye saved through faith", contains two main elements, grace and faith. Salvation comes through God's unmerited gift to us. It is obtained upon the condition of faith. The "Good News" is grace; it is the Gospel. To say that OSAS is the Gospel is to replace grace as the Gospel. We are forever told by Scripture to cast our faith entirely on the work of Christ on our behalf; the atonement of Christ, God's unmerited favor; grace! Predestination, fatalism, Eternal Security, or Once Saved Always Saved may be what some are putting their faith in for salvation, but it is not grace!  The object of our faith is to be in the work of Christ, and never in any personal merit or doctrine! 

http://eternalsecurity.us/once_saved_always_saved a substitute for grace.htm


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## barryl

*Heres Help*



Artfuldodger said:


> I look at it more as a covenant with God. There are two parties involved and I must keep my end of the covenant. There are some "ifs" in my covenant with God.
> Psalm 103:17-18
> 
> King James Version (KJV)
> 
> 17 But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;
> 
> 18 To such as keep his covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them.


You{we} couldn't hold up our end of any covenant if our life depended on it{just to remind you "WORKS" will not help you or anyone else, only after salvation} Just trust in the shed Blood of Jesus Christ that is all that is required {Faith plus nothing Eph. 2: 8-10} Just take God at his WORD !! Isa. 64:6   Rom. 3:10   Romans Ch. 10 KJV 1611 AV


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## barryl

*?*



Artfuldodger said:


> Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
> 
> Why would this teaching of not going to Heaven pertain to one group of people and not another group?


Kingdom of God, might be a good idea to study up on it.


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## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> You{we} couldn't hold up our end of any covenant if our life depended on it{just to remind you "WORKS" will not help you or anyone else, only after salvation} Just trust in the shed Blood of Jesus Christ that is all that is required {Faith plus nothing Eph. 2: 8-10} Just take God at his WORD !! Isa. 64:6   Rom. 3:10   Romans Ch. 10 KJV 1611 AV



What's to keep you from holding up your side of the covenant?  
You've been resurrected with Christ.  You've been clothed with Christ.  You've received the Holy Spirit who continues to abide within you even today.
You'll never be tempted beyond what you cannot stand up to.
Don't sell yourself short.  And while you are maturing in Christ, remember that the blood of Christ continually forgives all those who are walking in the light of Christ.
Ask for forgiveness, God takes it away.


I also offer these verses concerning works.

James 2:14

Question #1: (14)What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? 
Question #2:  (14) Can that faith save him? 

Statement: 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
Statement: 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 

Question #3:  20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 

Statement: 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Back in James 1, James had already said to them:  
1:22  22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude and deceive yourselves.”

And John the apostles:  
1John 3:7  “Little children,  let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous.” 

*There's a hundred hours of Bible study in the verses above.

One thing's for sure, James is not comparing faith to works.
James is saying there will always be an outward, physical manifestation of Faith.

If we don't believe it, James says we're deluding ourselves.

Here's a super question to consider:
What is the faith that has no outward physical manifestation???????
I believe it is when a person hears about Jesus, believes the things he's heard/read about Jesus, has faith that it all is so, but that belief does not show itself physically.  That life doesn't change.

Faith without works is dead, there's no life in it, the Spirit does not abide in it.


----------



## Artfuldodger

quote: Here's a super question to consider:
What is the faith that has no outward physical manifestation???????
I believe it is when a person hears about Jesus, believes the things he's heard/read about Jesus, has faith that it all is so, but that belief does not show itself physically. end quote

I know what you are saying but I know plenty of good Christians that don't always exhibit traits of a good Christian. I would still consider them to be good Christians, they just have a temporary lapse of judgement. Some of theses actions are done on purpose such as cheating on income taxes or in business ventures. I guess they justify it in their mind someway. These people, me included, still consider we are Christians. We don't always act as if we have the Holy Spirit living in us. Maybe i'm the only Christian on this forum who struggles with sin. I guess what I don't see is how can someone sin, willfully or nonwillfully, and not worry about their salvation? One other question is, What happens to the Holy Spirit living in me when I sin? Why didn't he stop me instead of just trying to talk me out of it? 
I can really see the "fruit we bear" as being proof. If we truly believe in God and Jesus, why would Lust even enter my mind? Why would I even ever fight with my wife? Why would I even try to cheat Uncle Sam or the insurance company out of money? When I do these things I do them to God. Why don't I help people more often than I do? When I help people i'm helping God personally so to speak. 
People truly believe they are Christians and are sure of their salvation. I just ain't at the point in my life to be assure of my salvation. If you are then i'm glad for you. I've still got a lot of work to do on forgiving others , being more humble & meek, and helping people before i'm assure. So yes, i'm a faith and works believer. It use to more popular in Churches of the South, what happened? I guess i need to convert to Methodist.


----------



## gtparts

I hardly know where to start, but certainly it must start with a gratitude to God for the assurance that when I gave Him my life, He took responsibility for the salvation He freely gave me. OSAS is a misnomer. While we can only find ourselves in the saving grace of God from a particular point in time, it is on-going because God has said it and He cannot lie. The idea that we can fall from grace is quite true, but it does not mean a loss of salvation. It is an impairment of our relationship with God, not its destruction. It is a broken fellowship with our heavenly Father, much as the barrier created by the prodigal by way of distance, but also of his own desire to squander his inheritance, in rebellion to the will of his father. Gone, but not forgotten; lost for a time, but not irretrievably; beyond the ability to experience his father's love, but fully loved, nonetheless. 

So, it is with utter confidence that If Saved, Always Saved, ISAS.

From the other side of this 'coin', if we cannot be assured of salvation based on the very Word of God, then we cannot have confidence in salvation preserved by the One who says one thing, yet contradicts the same in His next holy breath. And, beyond that, it is absurd in the extreme to think we can do enough to hold on to that greatest of all gifts, life in Christ. Even if that were true, how could you ever know when enough was enough? Could you ever slack off from the doing? Is a grade of 85% a passing grade? Maybe 70%, because you were raised by ungodly parents? Will 99% get it done? Until you understand that only perfection is acceptable to God and that we are all disqualified by our very thoughts, not counting our actions, then it it becomes obvious why Jesus swapped His perfection for our imperfection. Was that the only way? Perhaps not. But, it was/is the way God chose to handle a rebellious creation, mankind.

The question remains: Do we have the power to nullify our salvation? Can we force the Son of God to swap back, taking back His perfection and returning our imperfection? Is salvation a matter of how we see ourselves or is it how God sees us in Christ. We wrestle with the frailties of human existence. We are indeed the good, the bad, and the ugly (at least from our own perspectives). In the only analysis that counts, what does God declare us to be?

God does not leave us dangling, wondering if we have 'made the team'.

1 John 5:1-13

New Living Translation (NLT)
Faith in the Son of God

1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has become a child of God. And everyone who loves the Father loves his children, too. 2 We know we love God’s children if we love God and obey his commandments. 3 Loving God means keeping his commandments, and his commandments are not burdensome. 4 For every child of God defeats this evil world, and we achieve this victory through our faith. 5 And who can win this battle against the world? Only those who believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

6 And Jesus Christ was revealed as God’s Son by his baptism in water and by shedding his blood on the cross—not by water only, but by water and blood. And the Spirit, who is truth, confirms it with his testimony. 7 So we have these three witnesses— 8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood—and all three agree. 9 Since we believe human testimony, surely we can believe the greater testimony that comes from God. And God has testified about his Son. 10 All who believe in the Son of God know in their hearts that this testimony is true. Those who don’t believe this are actually calling God a liar because they don’t believe what God has testified about his Son.

11 And this is what God has testified: He has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have God’s Son does not have life.
Conclusion

13 I have written this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know you have eternal life.


----------



## barryl

*?*



Ronnie T said:


> What's to keep you from holding up your side of the covenant?
> You've been resurrected with Christ.  You've been clothed with Christ.  You've received the Holy Spirit who continues to abide within you even today.
> You'll never be tempted beyond what you cannot stand up to.
> Don't sell yourself short.  And while you are maturing in Christ, remember that the blood of Christ continually forgives all those who are walking in the light of Christ.
> Ask for forgiveness, God takes it away.
> 
> 
> I also offer these verses concerning works.
> 
> James 2:14
> 
> Question #1: (14)What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works?
> Question #2:  (14) Can that faith save him?
> 
> Statement: 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
> Statement: 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
> 
> Question #3:  20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
> 
> Statement: 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
> 
> Back in James 1, James had already said to them:
> 1:22  22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude and deceive yourselves.”
> 
> And John the apostles:
> 1John 3:7  “Little children,  let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous.”
> 
> *There's a hundred hours of Bible study in the verses above.
> 
> One thing's for sure, James is not comparing faith to works.
> James is saying there will always be an outward, physical manifestation of Faith.
> 
> If we don't believe it, James says we're deluding ourselves.
> 
> Here's a super question to consider:
> What is the faith that has no outward physical manifestation???????
> I believe it is when a person hears about Jesus, believes the things he's heard/read about Jesus, has faith that it all is so, but that belief does not show itself physically.  That life doesn't change.
> 
> Faith without works is dead, there's no life in it, the Spirit does not abide in it.


I noticed that you only highlighted part of what I had bracketed so here we go {only after salvation}


----------



## barryl

*Context*



Artfuldodger said:


> Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
> 
> Why would this teaching of not going to Heaven pertain to one group of people and not another group?


A.D., why not start with with verse 19, or better yet, go to verse 13. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, etc.


----------



## Artfuldodger

A.D., why not start with with verse 19, or better yet, go to verse 13. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, etc.[/QUOTE]

I actually did read those other verses. It starts out letting me know I have free will. The "law" has been abolished and replaced with this: The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
Let the Holy Spirit guide you and you want sin. I still sin so I don't always listen to the Holy Spirit. I should but I don't. If I follow the Holy Spirit and do as he suggest, then i'm not under the Law.
"But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."
Then it goes on to tell us all the bad stuff we can get ourselves into when we don't follow the Holy Spirit that might keep us out of Heaven.
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,"
Sometime I don't listen to the Holy Spirit(free will) and I don't produce the above mentioned fruit.
Then it goes on to tell me if I am gentle & meek, I don't need a law as I am following the Holy Spirit.
there is no law to condemn me when I'm living a Loving & meek life. I would be totally free. 
I'm not there yet but i'm workin on it.


----------



## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> I noticed that you only highlighted part of what I had bracketed so here we go {only after salvation}



Question #1: (14)What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? 
Question #2: (14) Can that faith save him?

{only after salvation}:  "Can that faith save him", or "Can there be salvation in that faith?" ......The implication is that there cannot.
.


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## Artfuldodger

How then is OSAS a substitute for grace? Grace by definition is "unmerited favor." It is God reaching out to offer that which we do not deserve. It cannot be earned, and it cannot be merited. The passage, "For by grace are ye saved through faith", contains two main elements, grace and faith. Salvation comes through God's unmerited gift to us. It is obtained upon the condition of faith. The "Good News" is grace; it is the Gospel. To say that OSAS is the Gospel is to replace grace as the Gospel. We are forever told by Scripture to cast our faith entirely on the work of Christ on our behalf; the atonement of Christ, God's unmerited favor; grace! Predestination, fatalism, Eternal Security, or Once Saved Always Saved may be what some are putting their faith in for salvation, but it is not grace!  The object of our faith is to be in the work of Christ, and never in any personal merit or doctrine! 

http://eternalsecurity.us/once_saved_always_saved a substitute for grace.htm


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> quote: Here's a super question to consider:
> What is the faith that has no outward physical manifestation???????
> I believe it is when a person hears about Jesus, believes the things he's heard/read about Jesus, has faith that it all is so, but that belief does not show itself physically. end quote
> 
> I know what you are saying but I know plenty of good Christians that don't always exhibit traits of a good Christian. I would still consider them to be good Christians, they just have a temporary lapse of judgement. Some of theses actions are done on purpose such as cheating on income taxes or in business ventures. I guess they justify it in their mind someway. These people, me included, still consider we are Christians. We don't always act as if we have the Holy Spirit living in us. Maybe i'm the only Christian on this forum who struggles with sin. I guess what I don't see is how can someone sin, willfully or nonwillfully, and not worry about their salvation? One other question is, What happens to the Holy Spirit living in me when I sin? Why didn't he stop me instead of just trying to talk me out of it?
> I can really see the "fruit we bear" as being proof. If we truly believe in God and Jesus, why would Lust even enter my mind? Why would I even ever fight with my wife? Why would I even try to cheat Uncle Sam or the insurance company out of money? When I do these things I do them to God. Why don't I help people more often than I do? When I help people i'm helping God personally so to speak.
> People truly believe they are Christians and are sure of their salvation. I just ain't at the point in my life to be assure of my salvation. If you are then i'm glad for you. I've still got a lot of work to do on forgiving others , being more humble & meek, and helping people before i'm assure. So yes, i'm a faith and works believer. It use to more popular in Churches of the South, what happened? I guess i need to convert to Methodist.



Some might disagree with me but I say it only because it is true.  There is no excuse for you or I to ever commit a sin!!!!!
No excuse.  We cannot blame it on Satan and we cannot blame it on Eve, or Adam.

When we sinned, we should not have.  And so we must confront and deal with that fact in our life.

Beyond that, as we continue on into our lives of discipleship to our Lord, we must see the peace that lies in the shed blood of Christ our Savior.

In that alone, you and I find assurance.

God's wonderful grace, mercy, and forgiveness.

He forgives us even though we don't deserve it, and in that forgiveness we become aware of our every shortcoming.

I hope that you will soon find great confidence in the blood of Jesus.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I was really trying to follow this guy until he said this:

False Christians Never Saved to Begin With

A born-again believer does NOT convert to the Mormon faith or become an atheist. When a man claims that he "used to be a Christian," but now has become a Jehovah's Witness, he's a liar. He never was a Christian to begin with. He may have once had the philosophy of Christianity, or the organization of Christianity; but he never had genuine Christianity, which is found by faith in Jesus Christ alone.

You don't trust Christ one day and then forsake him the next, it doesn't work that way. A child of God will always be a child of God. If you don't have Jesus Christ today, it is ONLY because you never really trusted Him at all. In contrast to the other Apostles, Judas was a known unrepentant thief (John 12:6). We have no Scriptural reason to believe that Judas was ever a believer.
They have religion; but not Jesus Christ. They have been lied to by false prophets like Dan Corner, Ray Comfort and John MacArthur to think that they must live lives of obedience, holiness and faithfulness to be saved. They are self-righteous. Are you really a Christian? Churches today are filled with people who are not saved. Most people today have churchianity without Christianity. Please make certain you have been born-again. You need HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS! The road to - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - is paved with good intentions (Proverb 14:12; 2nd Corinthians 11:13,14). Please don't miss the gift of God. 
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's Corner/eternal_security.htm


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> Some might disagree with me but I say it only because it is true.  There is no excuse for you or I to ever commit a sin!!!!!
> No excuse.  We cannot blame it on Satan and we cannot blame it on Eve, or Adam.
> 
> When we sinned, we should not have.  And so we must confront and deal with that fact in our life.
> 
> Beyond that, as we continue on into our lives of discipleship to our Lord, we must see the peace that lies in the shed blood of Christ our Savior.
> 
> In that alone, you and I find assurance.
> 
> God's wonderful grace, mercy, and forgiveness.
> 
> He forgives us even though we don't deserve it, and in that forgiveness we become aware of our every shortcoming.
> 
> I hope that you will soon find great confidence in the blood of Jesus.



We disagree on a lot of stuff but that is about the best thing i've read in a few days. I get really tired of people always blaming Satan and Adam for their sins. I do take comfort in the blood of Jesus and i'm working on the confidence. Thanks for the blessing.


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## barryl

*It's late*

I know that I have eternal life as a present possession{1 John5:13, 20 John 10:28 3:36,5:24} my final destination is to wind up just like Jesus Christ{Rom. 8:29, 1John 3:1-2;Phil 3:21} Now, If whoever wants to "fall from grace, or become "hardened through the deceitfulness of sin" or"tread underfoot the Son of God" or fail to "endure unto the end" or "fall away,"etc. let the Bible perverter go ahead and do it !!! Soteriology-Doctrine of Salvation 1.Salvation:a gen. term describing the whole process from start to finish. 2.Redemption: a completed  payment so a thing can be released or be "freed." 3.Propitiation: a specific payment to placate or appease an offended party. 4. Regeneration: an actual act whereby a man is born again by the Spirit Of God. 5.adoption: a judicial act whereby a sinner is declared to be a part of God's family.   6.Justification: a judicial act whereby God declares a sinner to be righteous. 7. Imputation: a judicial act where God attributes someone's sins to someone else and attributes someone's righteousness to someone else.                              8. Sanctification: a three-stage process whereby a sinner is saved from the penalty of sin{- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -}, the power of sin{daily}, and the presence of sin. Romans 10: 9 So if there are questions after all that has been made available, then the problem is "HEART TROUBLE" Any further questions refer to GT PARTS, tasteful post above !!


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> I was really trying to follow this guy until he said this:
> 
> False Christians Never Saved to Begin With
> 
> A born-again believer does NOT convert to the Mormon faith or become an atheist. When a man claims that he "used to be a Christian," but now has become a Jehovah's Witness, he's a liar. He never was a Christian to begin with. He may have once had the philosophy of Christianity, or the organization of Christianity; but he never had genuine Christianity, which is found by faith in Jesus Christ alone.
> 
> You don't trust Christ one day and then forsake him the next, it doesn't work that way. A child of God will always be a child of God. If you don't have Jesus Christ today, it is ONLY because you never really trusted Him at all. In contrast to the other Apostles, Judas was a known unrepentant thief (John 12:6). We have no Scriptural reason to believe that Judas was ever a believer.
> They have religion; but not Jesus Christ. They have been lied to by false prophets like Dan Corner, Ray Comfort and John MacArthur to think that they must live lives of obedience, holiness and faithfulness to be saved. They are self-righteous. Are you really a Christian? Churches today are filled with people who are not saved. Most people today have churchianity without Christianity. Please make certain you have been born-again. You need HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS! The road to - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - is paved with good intentions (Proverb 14:12; 2nd Corinthians 11:13,14). Please don't miss the gift of God.
> http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's Corner/eternal_security.htm



Never trust a website where the background is black and the text is white.


----------



## Lowjack

I see a lot of Confusion pertaining what salvation is and what part of man is saved;
Going back to my Jewish roots , the old testament teaches salvation is of God , even the name of Christ in Hebrew "Yeshua"means God's salvation"Yeh=God, Shuah = Salvation.
The commandments were not given as a method of Salvation , the commandments were given as a way of holiness unto God. You can keep all the commandments as perfect as you wish , they alone will not save you , it is the act of faith in God that saves you.
It's sort of like going to another country and obeying their laws but yet you are not a citizen of that country , so your rights are limited, Only those who have being redeemed by the blood of God's sacrifice through Yeshua , can now practice holiness.Only those who practice holiness can see God"("But Without Holiness no one will see God")Only those who are in Christ are truly saved , so what part of man is saved ? The Spirit , the flesh is the one that sins , the flesh is the one that is destroyed at death ,but the spirit lives on in Christ eternally, without Christ it also will be destroyed after Judgement day. That is what God is saving us from.It amazes me that christians do not understand the flesh and sins are not longer accountable as Paul said "All sins are out of the body"I like to see a study of living in the spirit,this would be very helpfull to the neophites.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Here is a preacher in Atlanta that says you can even walk away from the faith and still be saved.

Charles Stanley, pastor of Atlanta's megachurch First Baptist and a television evangelist, has written that the doctrine of eternal security of the believer persuaded him years ago to leave his familial Pentecostalism and become a Southern Baptist. He sums up his deep conviction that salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone when he claims, "Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy… believers who lose or abandon their faith will retain their salvation."[5] For example, Stanley writes:


Look at that verse [John 3:18] and answer this question: According to Jesus, what must a person do to keep from being judged for sin? Must he stop doing something? Must he promise to stop doing something? Must he have never done something? The answer is so simple that many stumble all over it without ever seeing it. All Jesus requires is that the individual "believe in" Him.

— Charles Stanley[5] (p. 67).

In a chapter entitled "For Those Who Stop Believing", he says, "The Bible clearly teaches that God's love for His people is of such magnitude that even those who walk away from the faith have not the slightest chance of slipping from His hand (p. 74)." A little later, Stanley also writes: "You and I are not saved because we have an enduring faith. We are saved because at a moment in time we expressed faith in our enduring Lord" (p. 80).

The doctrine sees the work of salvation as wholly monergistic, which is to say that God alone performs it and man has no part in the process beyond receiving it, and therefore, proponents argue that man cannot undo what they believe God has done


----------



## StriperAddict

Art, the latter part of Lowjack's post 300 (on the flesh) is good fodder for your Charles Stanley concerns.
Plus Rom 6: 1, 2

That's all I have time for.

But Lowjack is right, we ought to have a discussion on the flesh sometime, for another thread perhaps.


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> Here is a preacher in Atlanta that says you can even walk away from the faith and still be saved.
> 
> Charles Stanley, pastor of Atlanta's megachurch First Baptist and a television evangelist, has written that the doctrine of eternal security of the believer persuaded him years ago to leave his familial Pentecostalism and become a Southern Baptist. He sums up his deep conviction that salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone when he claims, "Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy… believers who lose or abandon their faith will retain their salvation."[5] For example, Stanley writes:
> 
> 
> Look at that verse [John 3:18] and answer this question: According to Jesus, what must a person do to keep from being judged for sin? Must he stop doing something? Must he promise to stop doing something? Must he have never done something? The answer is so simple that many stumble all over it without ever seeing it. All Jesus requires is that the individual "believe in" Him.
> 
> — Charles Stanley[5] (p. 67).
> 
> In a chapter entitled "For Those Who Stop Believing", he says, "The Bible clearly teaches that God's love for His people is of such magnitude that even those who walk away from the faith have not the slightest chance of slipping from His hand (p. 74)." A little later, Stanley also writes: "You and I are not saved because we have an enduring faith. We are saved because at a moment in time we expressed faith in our enduring Lord" (p. 80).
> 
> The doctrine sees the work of salvation as wholly monergistic, which is to say that God alone performs it and man has no part in the process beyond receiving it, and therefore, proponents argue that man cannot undo what they believe God has done



Charles Stanley's words do not hold up to the teachings of God.
I'd love to use many adjectives, but that serves no purpose.  What he says is in complete contradiction with biblical teachings.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> Charles Stanley's words do not hold up to the teachings of God.
> I'd love to use many adjectives, but that serves no purpose.  What he says is in complete contradiction with biblical teachings.



So you believe a Christian can walk away and loose his Salvation? No one can snatch you from God's hand. Now I know someone will say eventually he will come back to God. What if he dies before he returns?
I can't see a man as a Christian who looses his faith.


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> So you believe a Christian can walk away and loose his Salvation? No one can snatch you from God's hand. Now I know someone will say eventually he will come back to God. What if he dies before he returns?
> I can't see a man as a Christian who looses his faith.



It isn't a matter of what I believe, it's a matter of what God's word says.

It's great to be in the palm of God's hand.  
As the scripture says:  "A sheep in the hand of god".

But, the scripture says more...............


Matthew 24:11–13 
11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 

Acts 20:29–30
29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. 

2 Peter 1:10–11
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.


----------



## Artfuldodger

2 Peter 1:10–11
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 

What do I as a MAN need to do to "make my election sure?"
If Jesus died on the cross and he can't die every time I sin and no one can snatch me from God's hand, what can I do about it? Do I even have a choice? Won't I always be saved? Even if I leave the Church? Are there absolutely no stipulations like believing in the Trinity?


----------



## barryl

*Here ya go*



Ronnie T said:


> What's to keep you from holding up your side of the covenant?
> You've been resurrected with Christ.  You've been clothed with Christ.  You've received the Holy Spirit who continues to abide within you even today.
> You'll never be tempted beyond what you cannot stand up to.
> Don't sell yourself short.  And while you are maturing in Christ, remember that the blood of Christ continually forgives all those who are walking in the light of Christ.
> Ask for forgiveness, God takes it away.
> 
> 
> I also offer these verses concerning works.
> 
> James 2:14
> 
> Question #1: (14)What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works?
> Question #2:  (14) Can that faith save him?
> 
> Statement: 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
> Statement: 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
> 
> Question #3:  20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
> 
> Statement: 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
> 
> Back in James 1, James had already said to them:
> 1:22  22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude and deceive yourselves.”
> 
> And John the apostles:
> 1John 3:7  “Little children,  let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous.”
> 
> *There's a hundred hours of Bible study in the verses above.
> 
> One thing's for sure, James is not comparing faith to works.
> James is saying there will always be an outward, physical manifestation of Faith.
> 
> If we don't believe it, James says we're deluding ourselves.
> 
> Here's a super question to consider:
> What is the faith that has no outward physical manifestation???????
> I believe it is when a person hears about Jesus, believes the things he's heard/read about Jesus, has faith that it all is so, but that belief does not show itself physically.  That life doesn't change.
> 
> Faith without works is dead, there's no life in it, the Spirit does not abide in it.


I'm just a little slow sometimes. Rom. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. KJV 1611 AV Would have thought you would have known that James Ch. 2 is written to "the 12 tribes" of Isreal working their way to Heaven


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> 2 Peter 1:10–11
> 10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
> 
> What do I as a MAN need to do to "make my election sure?"
> If Jesus died on the cross and he can't die every time I sin and no one can snatch me from God's hand, what can I do about it? Do I even have a choice? Won't I always be saved? Even if I leave the Church? Are there absolutely no stipulations like believing in the Trinity?



Don't ask me!  Read God's word.  Take it into your heart and you won't even need an answer to your questions.

Eph 3:4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; 6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, 7 of which I was made a minister

Phil 1:3 I thank my God in all my remembrance of you, 4 always offering prayer with joy in my every prayer for you all, 5 in view of your participation in the gospel from the first day until now.

Col 1:21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard

One of the great things about religion on the internet?
It's a great place to ask questions.  But, you're most likely to get 25 different answers.

You want true peace and contentment in life???  Then begin to believe every word of the Gospel.  Not one verse over the other; not doctrines of men; just believe every verse of the Bible.  They'll all add up to the truth.


----------



## barryl

*No Secret !*



Artfuldodger said:


> 2 Peter 1:10–11
> 10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
> 
> What do I as a MAN need to do to "make my election sure?"
> If Jesus died on the cross and he can't die every time I sin and no one can snatch me from God's hand, what can I do about it? Do I even have a choice? Won't I always be saved? Even if I leave the Church? Are there absolutely no stipulations like believing in the Trinity?


If you believe on the shed Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ you are in {Fixed} whether you want to be or not. You can go ahead and tear up your "Stay out of Heaven" justification card because you are a member of the Body of Christ. Now, get rooted and grounded in the word of God, learn how to "Rightly Divide" and quit mangling Gods word and come to the knowledge of the truth. Just take God at his Word or, refer to post 298 or 289


----------



## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> I'm just a little slow sometimes. Rom. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. KJV 1611 AV Would have thought you would have known that James Ch. 2 is written to "the 12 tribes" of Isreal working their way to Heaven



It's possible that you are a little slow.  You'll have to be the judge of that!

And of course I know James was specifically writing to the Jewish Christians who had been forced out of Jerusalem.

I also know that Romans 4 has a strong element of Judaism in it.
But Romans 4 and James 2 both apply to modern Christians just as they did when originally acted out and recorded.  In Christ, there are no Jews or Gentiles.

You are correct in what Romans 4 says:  Abraham was not saved and he was not justified by works.  

***Romans 4:4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
***

You and I were not saved by works.

But, James 2 is also correct when it says:  Faith without works is dead.

It applies to you and I!!!!!  Not just Jews.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> And of course I know James was specifically writing to the Jewish Christians who had been forced out of Jerusalem.
> 
> I also know that Romans 4 has a strong element of Judaism in it.
> But Romans 4 and James 2 both apply to modern Christians just as they did when originally acted out and recorded.  In Christ, there are no Jews or Gentiles.
> 
> You and I were not saved by works.
> 
> But, James 2 is also correct when it says:  Faith without works is dead.
> 
> It applies to you and I!!!!!  Not just Jews.



Now i'm confused about Bible books that aply to me. I guess Hebrews doesn't apply directly to me so why are verses quoted from it so often?


----------



## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> If you believe on the shed Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ you are in {Fixed} whether you want to be or not. You can go ahead and tear up your "Stay out of Heaven" justification card because you are a member of the Body of Christ. Now, get rooted and grounded in the word of God, learn how to "Rightly Divide" and quit mangling Gods word and come to the knowledge of the truth. Just take God at his Word or, refer to post 298 or 289



I understand the OSAS concept, I know there are verses for it and against it. I'm  trying to "rightly divide", but when I read that I must "make my election sure" in Peter, What must I do?


2 Peter 1:10–11
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.


----------



## barryl

*?*



Ronnie T said:


> It's possible that you are a little slow.  You'll have to be the judge of that!
> 
> And of course I know James was specifically writing to the Jewish Christians who had been forced out of Jerusalem.
> 
> I also know that Romans 4 has a strong element of Judaism in it.
> But Romans 4 and James 2 both apply to modern Christians just as they did when originally acted out and recorded.  In Christ, there are no Jews or Gentiles.
> 
> You are correct in what Romans 4 says:  Abraham was not saved and he was not justified by works.
> 
> ***Romans 4:4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
> ***
> 
> You and I were not saved by works.
> 
> But, James 2 is also correct when it says:  Faith without works is dead.
> 
> It applies to you and I!!!!!  Not just Jews.


I know I am not saved by works. Jewish "Christians" ? Here is why I'm saved John 1 :12-13 KJV AV  12. But as many as "recieved" him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name


----------



## barryl

*?*



Artfuldodger said:


> I understand the OSAS concept, I know there are verses for it and against it. I'm not trying to "rightly divide", but when I read that I must "make my election sure" in Peter, What must I do?
> 
> 
> 2 Peter 1:10–11
> 10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.


"Verses for it and against it" It's Bible Doctrine. Context, 1-13 2Peter "Christian" Virtues and Truth is what is being talked about in these verses.


----------



## barryl

*2 Tim. 3:16*



Artfuldodger said:


> Now i'm confused about Bible books that aply to me. I guess Hebrews doesn't apply directly to me so why are verses quoted from it so often?


Spiritual,Doctrinal, and Historical. Spiritual app, yes. Doctrinal, Historical twofold app.


----------



## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> I know I am not saved by works. Jewish "Christians" ? Here is why I'm saved John 1 :12-13 KJV AV  12. But as many as "recieved" him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name



barryl is saved by faith, not works.
How does barryl know that he has faith??????????
Faith always produces a physical response(deeds).

James doesn't contradict Paul, James compliments Paul's teachings.

barryl is saved by faith, but that faith will always produce a physical response(deeds).  If it doesn't, barryl might want to get back into God's word for some additional godly wisdom.     

Sames goes for Ronnie.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I still haven't got an answer on what I need to do to make my election secure. In the article below the author makes an important observation. Why would Satan waste his time on Eternally Secure Christians?
Quote below:
For those who believe in the doctrine of eternal security, II Peter 1:10-11 is a particularly difficult teaching to dispute because it exposes the lie in this infernal teaching. It does this by stating a simple command that God asks us to carry out:

Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

The inverse is also true; if we fail to do what Peter advises, then our calling and election are not sure. Beyond that, if we stumble, an entrance will not be supplied to us into the Kingdom of God.

God has done His part. He called or elected us out of all the billions on this planet. He forgave us, granted us repentance, and gave us His Holy Spirit. He opened up the truth to us and revealed Himself and His way of life to us. He made the New Covenant with us, supplying us with spiritual gifts, love, and faith. There is no end to what He has done for us.

Nevertheless, if we do not reciprocate, the relationship He has begun will fall apart. Our calling and election are not certain without us doing our part. We can fall away and not make it into the Kingdom of God.

Why did Peter write this to the whole church (verse 1)? He wrote this because the church at the time was experiencing various apostasies (II Peter 2:3). False teachers were bringing into the church destructive doctrines to turn the people away.

Why would Satan put false teachers in the church if there was no chance for the people to fall away? If church members have eternal security, why waste his time on them? However, Satan himself knows that Christians do not have eternal security, and he tries his best to turn us into apostates. We can fall away!

Peter was writing in this atmosphere. The people in the first century church were living in a time of false teachings, false teachers and apostasy; and he needed to warn them. "For this reason I will not be negligent to remind you always of these things, though you know and are established in the present truth" (II Peter 1:12).

This, too, begs the question: Why did Peter command them to make their calling and election sure? If they had the truth, and he admitted that they were established in it, why did they have to make it "sure"? In making their calling and election sure, they would be doing the one thing that would keep them on the right path to the Kingdom. Christians keep themselves from falling into deception, error, and sin—keep themselves from apostatizing and losing their salvation—by validating their conversion.



Read more: http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm...T/RA/k/693/Eternal-Security.htm#ixzz2CEFFR0SK


----------



## StriperAddict

There is a great difference between the work done _for _our redemption and ...
the works which accompany redemption.

The thread   "Rest"  speaks to this better than I can.


----------



## barryl

*Try this*



Ronnie T said:


> barryl is saved by faith, not works.
> How does barryl know that he has faith??????????
> Faith always produces a physical response(deeds).
> 
> James doesn't contradict Paul, James compliments Paul's teachings.
> 
> barryl is saved by faith, but that faith will always produce a physical response(deeds).  If it doesn't, barryl might want to get back into God's word for some additional godly wisdom.
> 
> Sames goes for Ronnie.


What physical response are you talkin about. I hope this doesn't mean I need to put my "wet suit" on. I see rightly dividing the word is still the issue.


----------



## barryl

*?*



Artfuldodger said:


> I still haven't got an answer on what I need to do to make my election secure. In the article below the author makes an important observation. Why would Satan waste his time on Eternally Secure Christians?
> Quote below:
> For those who believe in the doctrine of eternal security, II Peter 1:10-11 is a particularly difficult teaching to dispute because it exposes the lie in this infernal teaching. It does this by stating a simple command that God asks us to carry out:
> 
> Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
> 
> The inverse is also true; if we fail to do what Peter advises, then our calling and election are not sure. Beyond that, if we stumble, an entrance will not be supplied to us into the Kingdom of God.
> 
> God has done His part. He called or elected us out of all the billions on this planet. He forgave us, granted us repentance, and gave us His Holy Spirit. He opened up the truth to us and revealed Himself and His way of life to us. He made the New Covenant with us, supplying us with spiritual gifts, love, and faith. There is no end to what He has done for us.
> 
> Nevertheless, if we do not reciprocate, the relationship He has begun will fall apart. Our calling and election are not certain without us doing our part. We can fall away and not make it into the Kingdom of God.
> 
> Why did Peter write this to the whole church (verse 1)? He wrote this because the church at the time was experiencing various apostasies (II Peter 2:3). False teachers were bringing into the church destructive doctrines to turn the people away.
> 
> Why would Satan put false teachers in the church if there was no chance for the people to fall away? If church members have eternal security, why waste his time on them? However, Satan himself knows that Christians do not have eternal security, and he tries his best to turn us into apostates. We can fall away!
> 
> Peter was writing in this atmosphere. The people in the first century church were living in a time of false teachings, false teachers and apostasy; and he needed to warn them. "For this reason I will not be negligent to remind you always of these things, though you know and are established in the present truth" (II Peter 1:12).
> 
> This, too, begs the question: Why did Peter command them to make their calling and election sure? If they had the truth, and he admitted that they were established in it, why did they have to make it "sure"? In making their calling and election sure, they would be doing the one thing that would keep them on the right path to the Kingdom. Christians keep themselves from falling into deception, error, and sin—keep themselves from apostatizing and losing their salvation—by validating their conversion.
> 
> 
> 
> Read more: http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm...T/RA/k/693/Eternal-Security.htm#ixzz2CEFFR0SK


Refer to post 298


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> I see rightly dividing the word is still the issue.



Going back to post #2 (  ), how do you know if you're "rightly dividing the word"?


----------



## Ronnie T

centerpin fan said:


> Going back to post #2 (  ), how do you know if you're "rightly dividing the word"?



I think you're on to something.
Anytime he disagrees with someone, or scripture, it's because the person he disagrees with is not "rightly dividing the word".

How does one know if they are "rightly dividing the word"?  If you agree with barryl.


----------



## Artfuldodger

This discussion is so long I had to go back and re-read a few pages. I'm starting to repeat myself.


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> This discussion is so long I had to go back and re-read a few pages. I'm starting to repeat myself.



Exactly.

I think it's time for me to 'let it go' already.


----------



## barryl

*?*




Ronnie T said:


> I think you're on to something.
> Anytime he disagrees with someone, or scripture, it's because the person he disagrees with is not "rightly dividing the word".
> 
> How does one know if they are "rightly dividing the word"?  If you agree with barryl.


Awwwwwww, RT you say the kindest things, you to C.P. Still waitin' for you to tell me what the physical deeds thing is. Not to mention gettin' off topic.


----------



## centerpin fan

I Googled "rightly dividing the word of truth".  Here's the very first hit on the list:

http://www.biblebelievers.com/scofield/index.html

Do you have to agree with Scofield to rightly divide the word of truth?


----------



## Artfuldodger

In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven. (Mat 5:16)

Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us. (1 Pet 2:12)

No widow may be put on the list of widows unless she is over sixty, has been faithful to her husband, and is well known for her good deeds, such as bringing up children, showing hospitality, washing the feet of the saints, helping those in trouble and devoting herself to all kinds of good deeds. (1 Tim 5:9,10)

The sins of some men are obvious, reaching the place of judgment ahead of them; the sins of others trail behind them. In the same way, good deeds are obvious, and even those that are not cannot be hidden. (1 Tim 5:24,25)

Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. (1 Tim 6:17,18)

And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. (Heb 10:24)

For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Eph 2:10)

And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. (2 Cor 9:8)

And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God. (Col 1:10)

If a man cleanses himself from the latter, he will be an instrument for noble purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work. (2 Tim 2:21)

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Tim 3:16,17)

At least that last verse lets me know I didn't "rightly divide the truth". The whole Bible is important when learning about physical deeds.


----------



## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> Awwwwwww, RT you say the kindest things, you to C.P. Still waitin' for you to tell me what the physical deeds thing is. Not to mention gettin' off topic.



The "physical deeds" are all those verses Art just listed.  And James gave an example of what physical deeds real faith would produce, and what also dead faith would produce.

James 2:14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

Saving faith will always change a person's life.  A person of faith will always do good.

I called "physical acts" because many people today are afraid to hear the word "works".  It's the outlaw word.  It's the devil word.
But all it means is physical acts carried out by Christians.


----------



## barryl

*No*



centerpin fan said:


> I Googled "rightly dividing the word of truth".  Here's the very first hit on the list:
> 
> http://www.biblebelievers.com/scofield/index.html
> 
> Do you have to agree with Scofield to rightly divide the word of truth?


Not hardly.


----------



## barryl

*Here you go*



Ronnie T said:


> The "physical deeds" are all those verses Art just listed.  And James gave an example of what physical deeds real faith would produce, and what also dead faith would produce.
> 
> James 2:14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
> 
> Saving faith will always change a person's life.  A person of faith will always do good.
> 
> I called "physical acts" because many people today are afraid to hear the word "works".  It's the outlaw word.  It's the devil word.
> But all it means is physical acts carried out by Christians.


I thought you were done and were going to go play out in the streets. You know what Rev. says about one who maketh a lie ? I knew along time ago it would come to this. Just so you know I ain't got no rabbit blood in me. Start your own thread on Acts 2:38 and you can lead a whole bunch of people to He>>with you. Ole A.D. is confused enough without someone like you leading him astray. Yes, rightly dividing is the problem, he don't know and you can't. This thread is about Assurance of Salvation,anyone who knows about you Campbellites know you don't know anything about it ,short of Baptism regeneration, which is a lie from He>>. No I don't like you ,but, I love you in the Lord, so in a round about way, you need to read and study up on Rom. Ch. 10 instead of worrying about misinterpreting Rom. Ch. 6 {no water}or James Ch.2 I hope I have made myself clear, cause i will go over it again, anytime. Now the physical deeds you are talking about is, is getting wet !! Any further questions refer to Post 289. Don't just look at it, study it !!


----------



## barryl

Artfuldodger said:


> In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven. (Mat 5:16)
> 
> Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us. (1 Pet 2:12)
> 
> No widow may be put on the list of widows unless she is over sixty, has been faithful to her husband, and is well known for her good deeds, such as bringing up children, showing hospitality, washing the feet of the saints, helping those in trouble and devoting herself to all kinds of good deeds. (1 Tim 5:9,10)
> 
> The sins of some men are obvious, reaching the place of judgment ahead of them; the sins of others trail behind them. In the same way, good deeds are obvious, and even those that are not cannot be hidden. (1 Tim 5:24,25)
> 
> Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. (1 Tim 6:17,18)
> 
> And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. (Heb 10:24)
> 
> For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Eph 2:10)
> 
> And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. (2 Cor 9:8)
> 
> And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God. (Col 1:10)
> 
> If a man cleanses himself from the latter, he will be an instrument for noble purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work. (2 Tim 2:21)
> 
> All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Tim 3:16,17)
> 
> At least that last verse lets me know I didn't "rightly divide the truth". The whole Bible is important when learning about physical deeds.


refer to post 298


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Start your own thread on Acts 2:38 ...



He already did.


----------



## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> Not hardly.



Is there something about Scofield that you don't agree with? In your presenting the "rightly dividing the word" and which bible books are applicable to each situation and your repeated recomendation to study soteriology from your post #298, lets me know that somehow your indoctrination included some other input besides the Bible.
What i'm saying is you have had influence from preachers, parents, & elders. There is nothing wrong with any of your ideas on soteriology and reading what the bible says, but you are still influenced from outside sources. If I went in your church I would see resources other than the KJV of the Bible.  Your Church has a basic ideaology. 
You didn't just pick up the Bible and form your beliefs on your own about Adoption, Justification, and Imputation. Scoefield and others did this years before you were born.


----------



## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> I thought you were done and were going to go play out in the streets. You know what Rev. says about one who maketh a lie ? I knew along time ago it would come to this. Just so you know I ain't got no rabbit blood in me. Start your own thread on Acts 2:38 and you can lead a whole bunch of people to He>>with you. Ole A.D. is confused enough without someone like you leading him astray. Yes, rightly dividing is the problem, he don't know and you can't. This thread is about Assurance of Salvation,anyone who knows about you Campbellites know you don't know anything about it ,short of Baptism regeneration, which is a lie from He>>. No I don't like you ,but, I love you in the Lord, so in a round about way, you need to read and study up on Rom. Ch. 10 instead of worrying about misinterpreting Rom. Ch. 6 {no water}or James Ch.2 I hope I have made myself clear, cause i will go over it again, anytime. Now the physical deeds you are talking about is, is getting wet !! Any further questions refer to Post 289. Don't just look at it, study it !!



By saying one must believe in OSAS or go to He11, is an oxymoron in and of itself. If someone is saved, your own belief doesn't require it. It doesn't even require a belief in the Trinity. How my mind performs mental deeds is "WORKS". If i'm truly saved by Jesus, (he can't die again on the cross, you know), changing some of my basic beliefs,(WORKS), isn't going to undo Jesus dying on the cross. We've got "Mental Works" and we've got "Physical Works".


----------



## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> The "physical deeds" are all those verses Art just listed.  And James gave an example of what physical deeds real faith would produce, and what also dead faith would produce.
> 
> James 2:14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
> 
> Saving faith will always change a person's life.  A person of faith will always do good.
> 
> I called "physical acts" because many people today are afraid to hear the word "works".  It's the outlaw word.  It's the devil word.
> But all it means is physical acts carried out by Christians.





barryl said:


> I thought you were done and were going to go play out in the streets. You know what Rev. says about one who maketh a lie ? I knew along time ago it would come to this. Just so you know I ain't got no rabbit blood in me. Start your own thread on Acts 2:38 and you can lead a whole bunch of people to He>>with you. Ole A.D. is confused enough without someone like you leading him astray. Yes, rightly dividing is the problem, he don't know and you can't. This thread is about Assurance of Salvation,anyone who knows about you Campbellites know you don't know anything about it ,short of Baptism regeneration, which is a lie from He>>. No I don't like you ,but, I love you in the Lord, so in a round about way, you need to read and study up on Rom. Ch. 10 instead of worrying about misinterpreting Rom. Ch. 6 {no water}or James Ch.2 I hope I have made myself clear, cause i will go over it again, anytime. Now the physical deeds you are talking about is, is getting wet !! Any further questions refer to Post 289. Don't just look at it, study it !!



I'm not about to turn this discussion into a personal duel between you and myself.

I'm not about to study post #289, I study God's word.
Campbellite!  I've never studied the man's teachings.  Honestly.

And I'll just let your above post speak for itself!


----------



## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> I thought you were done and were going to go play out in the streets. You know what Rev. says about one who maketh a lie ? I knew along time ago it would come to this. Just so you know I ain't got no rabbit blood in me. Start your own thread on Acts 2:38 and you can lead a whole bunch of people to He>>with you. Ole A.D. is confused enough without someone like you leading him astray. Yes, rightly dividing is the problem, he don't know and you can't. This thread is about Assurance of Salvation,anyone who knows about you Campbellites know you don't know anything about it ,short of Baptism regeneration, which is a lie from He>>. No I don't like you ,but, I love you in the Lord, so in a round about way, you need to read and study up on Rom. Ch. 10 instead of worrying about misinterpreting Rom. Ch. 6 {no water}or James Ch.2 I hope I have made myself clear, cause i will go over it again, anytime. Now the physical deeds you are talking about is, is getting wet !! Any further questions refer to Post 289. Don't just look at it, study it !!



Well I'm very sorry you feel that way about me.
I certainly don't want you to feel that way and I didn't set out to cause it.  I hope I didn't.


----------



## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> I thought you were done and were going to go play out in the streets. You know what Rev. says about one who maketh a lie ? I knew along time ago it would come to this. Just so you know I ain't got no rabbit blood in me. Start your own thread on Acts 2:38 and you can lead a whole bunch of people to He>>with you. Ole A.D. is confused enough without someone like you leading him astray. Yes, rightly dividing is the problem, he don't know and you can't. This thread is about Assurance of Salvation,anyone who knows about you Campbellites know you don't know anything about it ,short of Baptism regeneration, which is a lie from He>>. No I don't like you ,but, I love you in the Lord, so in a round about way, you need to read and study up on Rom. Ch. 10 instead of worrying about misinterpreting Rom. Ch. 6 {no water}or James Ch.2 I hope I have made myself clear, cause i will go over it again, anytime. Now the physical deeds you are talking about is, is getting wet !! Any further questions refer to Post 289. Don't just look at it, study it !!



Absolutely and totally incorrect.
Never crossed my mind and never brought it up.


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## Artfuldodger

I had to look up Campbellites. Campbellites don't believe we inherited sin from Adam. Campbellites believe that the Holy Spirit dwells in the Word and does not operate apart from the Word.  The Campbellite says that regeneration is simply a reformation of the outward life, expressed especially in the act of baptism. Mr. Campbell himself said that ”regeneration is equivalent to immersion.” The Baptist says that regeneration is a change in the dispositions of the soul wrought by the Holy Spirit through repentance and faith.
The Campbellite believes that repentance is a mere change of mind, an outward reformation. The Baptist believes that repentance is the result of a godly sorrow which leads to a change of mind and involves a change of care, of purpose, and so eventuates in a change of life.


The next Belief is the one baryl is basing someone else's whole belief system on. I believe as some Mormons and JW's but that doesn't make me one.
Campbellites say, that salvation is a matter of obedience to God’s commands, and obedience is essential to salvation.


----------



## Artfuldodger

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" (John 3:36 NASB).

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments" (John 14:15 NASB).

"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love" (John 15:10 NASB).

"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every
 man according to what he has done" (Revelation 22:12 NASB).

And having been made perfect, He (Jesus) became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,... [Hebrews 5:9; NASB]

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -ation. [John 5:29; KJV]


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## barryl

*Psalms 12:6-7*



Artfuldodger said:


> Is there something about Scofield that you don't agree with? In your presenting the "rightly dividing the word" and which bible books are applicable to each situation and your repeated recomendation to study soteriology from your post #298, lets me know that somehow your indoctrination included some other input besides the Bible.
> What i'm saying is you have had influence from preachers, parents, & elders. There is nothing wrong with any of your ideas on soteriology and reading what the bible says, but you are still influenced from outside sources. If I went in your church I would see resources other than the KJV of the Bible.  Your Church has a basic ideaology.
> You didn't just pick up the Bible and form your beliefs on your own about Adoption, Justification, and Imputation. Scoefield and others did this years before you were born.


I don't believe everything Scofield taught, I use his study system. He is a man just like all of us and man will fail you. Soteriology {salvation doctrines} is pure Bible doctrine, I was getting jerked around over all these other false doctrines, all the if's, ands, and but's, when I started seriously seeking the truth other than what some man had to say, I found truth in the KJV AV. I am a Bible Believing {tweener} between the front cover and the back cover. Over the past 2 or 3 yrs. you have asked a bunch of questions and got a lot of answers from people on this forum, just stay in the Word of God. John 17:17 I don't know it all, but i know a whole lot more today because I spent a lot of time studying and I believe the Word of God is True!


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## barryl

Artfuldodger said:


> By saying one must believe in OSAS or go to He11, is an oxymoron in and of itself. If someone is saved, your own belief doesn't require it. It doesn't even require a belief in the Trinity. How my mind performs mental deeds is "WORKS". If i'm truly saved by Jesus, (he can't die again on the cross, you know), changing some of my basic beliefs,(WORKS), isn't going to undo Jesus dying on the cross. We've got "Mental Works" and we've got "Physical Works".


"saying one must believe in osas or go to he>>" I have not said any such thing, only one thing that I know of{today Church age} is UNBELIEF. Acts 16:30-31


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## barryl

Artfuldodger said:


> I had to look up Campbellites. Campbellites don't believe we inherited sin from Adam. Campbellites believe that the Holy Spirit dwells in the Word and does not operate apart from the Word.  The Campbellite says that regeneration is simply a reformation of the outward life, expressed especially in the act of baptism. Mr. Campbell himself said that ”regeneration is equivalent to immersion.” The Baptist says that regeneration is a change in the dispositions of the soul wrought by the Holy Spirit through repentance and faith.
> The Campbellite believes that repentance is a mere change of mind, an outward reformation. The Baptist believes that repentance is the result of a godly sorrow which leads to a change of mind and involves a change of care, of purpose, and so eventuates in a change of life.
> 
> 
> The next Belief is the one baryl is basing someone else's whole belief system on. I believe as some Mormons and JW's but that doesn't make me one.
> Campbellites say, that salvation is a matter of obedience to God’s commands, and obedience is essential to salvation.


They believe in baptismal regeneration


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## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> "saying one must believe in osas or go to he>>" I have not said any such thing, only one thing that I know of{today Church age} is UNBELIEF. Acts 16:30-31



OK, i'm sorry, it sounded like what you were alluding to.


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## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> "saying one must believe in osas or go to he>>" I have not said any such thing, only one thing that I know of{today Church age} is UNBELIEF. Acts 16:30-31



Ronnie clearly believes and teaches "belief", so I don't see how he could send anybody to he11.


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## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> They believe in baptismal regeneration



I think Apostolic Pentecostals do too.


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## Ronnie T

I'm not a campbellite.  Not sure I've ever met one.

Met a lot of Georgian's.

.


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## barryl

You can be sure, let's get back on topic Gal. 4:5; Eph.1:5; Acts 26:18; John 1:12; 1John 3:1; 1 Cor. 5:17; 1  John 5: 10-13


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## Ronnie T

For your information:  

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/822-alexander-campbell-and-christs-church


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## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> They believe in baptismal regeneration



Here's what I believe.



We Believe 

We are passionate about following Jesus and we understand that this involves using our head as well as our heart.  Paul, an author of many of the books in the Bible, keeps us centered with this reminder.  "...We know that all of us have knowledge, but knowledge can be risky.  Knowledge promotes overconfidence and worse arrogance, but charity of the heart (love, that is) looks to build up others" (1 Corinthians 8:1, The Voice).  That being said, there are beliefs that are central to the story of Jesus and to our faith.
 •
God - We believe in God the Father.  He is the God who created out of chaos in the beginning and He is still creating out of chaos right now.  The story of Scripture teaches us that God is driven by His willingness to love.  

•
Jesus - We believe in Jesus, the Son of God.  He is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15).  He is God in flesh: God who became man, God who became vulnerable, God who can be seen, touched, and experienced.  His obedience to the Father led him to the cross and a sacrificial death that has dealt a catastophic blow to sin and slavery.  The cross is at the core of our story but is incomplete without the empty tomb.  We believe that on the third day Jesus was resurrected from death and that he is only the first.  Jesus' bodily resurrection is our hope that death is not final for those who have faith in Him.  He is alive and so are those of us who have faith and so we will ever be.

•
The Holy Spirit - We believe in the Holy Spirit - our counselor, our comforter, and the one who intercedes on our behalf.  He provides followers of Jesus power for living, understanding of spiritual truth, and guidance in what is God honoring.

•
Sin - Every human is born as one who bears the image of God.  There is something holy and sacred about being human.  However, the story of Scripture teaches us that when we make decisions to step outside the boundaries that God has set to protect the sanctity of life, we disconnect ourselves from God's purposes.  Jesus came to both rescue and restore.  He came to rescue us from the brokenness and seperation from God's created intentions.  And, he longs to restore each of us so that we can experience the vision God had for us in creation.

•
The Bible - is the story of God's restoration.  The Holy Spirit worked through many different voices, generations, and types of writings to weave God's story together.  The Bible is so much more than a book to be studied and memorized; it is a story to be imitated and lived out.  God intends for Scripture to help motivate people to join in God's continued acts of restoration throughout the world.

•
Salvation - is a free gift from God.  We can never make up for our sin by self-improvement or good works.  Only by trusting in Jesus Christ as God's offer of forgiveness can we be saved from sin.  God isn't only interested in us being saved from something; He's just as interested in us being saved into something.  We have been saved into a life in which we get to passionately follow Jesus in the here and now.  

•
Covenant (Baptism & Communion) - God forms covenants with humans because He is relational.  Baptism teaches that we are saved by grace through faith.  We believe in baptism by immersion which represents the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus (Romans 6:1-5) and symbolizes the burial of the old self and the resurrection of a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17).  Baptism is the event where we join the adventure of living as a disciple of Jesus in our everyday life.  Every Sunday we celebrate this adventure and the sacrifice that was necessary for us to participate in it.  We call this celebration Communion or the Lord's Supper.  Others call it the Eucharist which is a Greek word that means "thanksgiving."  The purpose of Communion is to:  1) remind us of the covenant we have with God through our faith in the sacrificial death and life changing resurrection of Jesus, 2) live a transformed life because of the power of Jesus that now resides in us through the gift of the Holy Spirit, and 3) to remain connected to other believers in Jesus.

•
Discipleship and Spiritual Formation - The Great Commission found in Matthew 28:18-20, gives the command to make disciples of all nations.  With Jesus there is no Plan B.  The word disciple is found frequently in the New Testament (269 times).  By contrast the word Christian is found only 3 times.  To be a disciple is to be a follower; an imitator.  To honor and obey Jesus' words, we are eager to raise the bar for ourselves when we personally define what it means to be a follower.  We are not called to be his admirers.  We believe we are called to be passionate imitators of Jesus.  The charge given to church leaders in the Bible is to present mature followers to Jesus (Colossians 1:28-29).  So we move forward with a passion to see Jesus formed in other people (Galatians 4:19).

•
Reconciliation - We believe the story of Jesus is one that unites people from all economic situations and cultures.  We believe that evidence of God's work among us includes a diversity of people and perspectives all united in the one faith in Jesus as the resurrected Savior.  We realize that this requires a deep level of respect and humility (Romans 14:1-4).  We rebuke the spirit of division as we seek to shine the light of Jesus through a message of unity in diversity (Romans 16:17-18).

•
Compassion and Justice - We believe in the Biblical principles of restorative justice (2 Corinthians 5:18-20).  We believe that the brokenness experienced in our world will not be repaired at the ballot box, boycott, labor negotiations, Congressional edicts, or Supreme Court rulings.   Deep lasting solutions focus on restitution, restoration, healing, and the future.  Real compassion and justice are found only in the advancement of the reign of God and His kingdom.  We believe the poor, abused, neglected, and disenfranchised are on God's agenda.  We want to be bold disciples of Jesus and follow His lead into the dark crevices of life where only the faith of resurrection brings light.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> For your information:
> https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/822-alexander-campbell-and-christs-church



That was an informative article. I never really knew which Churches believe in "Eternal Security" or "OSAS". What are the Churches that don't believe in "Eternal Security"? Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, Church of God, Nazarenes, Pentecostals, are some I can think of. I don't know about Mormons, and JW's. What are some more?
I found this from a Pentecostal site and it sums up my view:

We believe the Christian will be persevered unto the end and be saved because of the power of Gods grace pledged for their support. We believe any saved person who has sinned (backslidden), but has a desire to repent, may do so and be restored to God's favor and fellowship. However, since man continues to have free choice, it is possible because of temptations and the weakness of human flesh for him to fall into the practice of sin and to make shipwreck of his faith and be lost once again.


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## Artfuldodger

quote: Sin - Every human is born as one who bears the image of God. There is something holy and sacred about being human. However, the story of Scripture teaches us that when we make decisions to step outside the boundaries that God has set to protect the sanctity of life, we disconnect ourselves from God's purposes. Jesus came to both rescue and restore. He came to rescue us from the brokenness and seperation from God's created intentions. And, he longs to restore each of us so that we can experience the vision God had for us in creation.(end quote)

Now not getting into inherited sin or the question of, if humans are born bad, I do believe Adam has something to do with sin and Jesus coming to save us. (might be a good new topic)
BUT, BUT, BUT, we have to take some responsibility, thanks to free will, for our own actions. We can't blame every bad thing we do on Adam or Satan, as we already discussed. 
I'll go even farther, we can't give the "Holy Spirit" all the credit when we are good. He only guides us. Mtnwoman is constantly reminding us, if everything we do is controlled by the "Holy Spirit" why do we still sin? Or is there some of you Christians who believe Christians don't sin? I've heard Christians say this.


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## Artfuldodger

What about Dan Corner? Proclaiming and defending the gospel of grace is what we do here at Evangelical Outreach. Eternal salvaSome have also confused the issue about eternal salvation by equating it to the bogus doctrine of eternal security. Eternal security has nothing to do with eternal salvation. Eternal salvation is a reality and comes instantly from the Lord Jesus and Jesus' blood (the source), but it is also on-going to those who obey (or follow), 1 Peter 1:9; Jn. 10:27,28; etc. On the other hand, once saved always saved is only a popular fine-sounding myth. It has nothing to do with fact. It will only hurt you in the end. It is a snare to one's SOUL and multitudes are in - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - now because of it. Eternal salvation is not the same as eternal security but, in reality, is associated with obeying the Lord Jesus Christ. 
http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/

I have no affiliation with him other than not believing in OSAS. I think it's funny that people think their way is the truth and nobody else is preaching it right.

Here is a guy debunking his teachings?
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/dan_corner.htm


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## barryl

Artfuldodger said:


> What about Dan Corner? Proclaiming and defending the gospel of grace is what we do here at Evangelical Outreach. Eternal salvaSome have also confused the issue about eternal salvation by equating it to the bogus doctrine of eternal security. Eternal security has nothing to do with eternal salvation. Eternal salvation is a reality and comes instantly from the Lord Jesus and Jesus' blood (the source), but it is also on-going to those who obey (or follow), 1 Peter 1:9; Jn. 10:27,28; etc. On the other hand, once saved always saved is only a popular fine-sounding myth. It has nothing to do with fact. It will only hurt you in the end. It is a snare to one's SOUL and multitudes are in - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - now because of it. Eternal salvation is not the same as eternal security but, in reality, is associated with obeying the Lord Jesus Christ.
> http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/
> 
> I have no affiliation with him other than not believing in OSAS. I think it's funny that people think their way is the truth and nobody else is preaching it right.
> 
> Here is a guy debunking his teachings?
> http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/dan_corner.htm


Sounds like Dan as well as others just don't believe the Bible!


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## Ronnie T

A disciple in Christ can always rest assured of eternity with their Lord.


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## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> A disciple in Christ can always rest assured of eternity with their Lord.



That's the way I see it too. On another post someone suggested that if a Christian becomes a Hindu or Atheist then he was never a Christian to begin with. (common answer)I don't agree with that. I feel that is just a way to justify his belief. I believe that the individual Christian by some other means, decided to give the "Gift of Salvation" back. He did this because he has free will. Why would he do this? It could be the persuasion of the Devil or just his own free will.
I've read some pretty convincing stories of former Christians who lost their faith. From their own testimony, they really were Christians and just lost their faith. I truly believe they were Christians. Now if God will keep them in his fold is the question. They were truly & absolutely saved. Are they still saved?


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## barryl

If, and ,but, can, I hope so. This is not believing the Bible. Self righteousness {WORKS} This thread was started to help whosoever will look deeper into Gods Word. When was the last time you witnessed to someone and they asked you "What must I do to be Saved" and you told them you have to hold out "to the end"{faith and Works}Do you believe Eph. 2:8-9 ?


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## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> If, and ,but, can, I hope so. This is not believing the Bible. Self righteousness {WORKS} This thread was started to help whosoever will look deeper into Gods Word. When was the last time you witnessed to someone and they asked you "What must I do to be Saved" and you told them you have to hold out "to the end"{faith and Works}Do you believe Eph. 2:8-9 ?



What happens to that new Christian after they have accepted Jesus and we say, that's it, go home and sin no more?
They go home and never get baptized, read the Bible, pray, witness, help & forgive others. They live a pretty good life, good as most Christians, but they never repent for any sins they commit. 
I'm sure they are saved on the night they accepted Jesus.
Maybe that same person eventually becomes an Atheist.
Are they still saved or do you believe, they were never saved?

(1 Corinthians 15:2 NIV) By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

(1 John 2:3-6 NIV) [3] We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. [4] The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [5] But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: [6] Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

I didn't put all those "IF's" in the KJV of the Bible.


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## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> Do you believe Eph. 2:8-9 ?



8)For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I believe I don't understand the whole Bible. That same verse is used by the predestination folks to say we don't have any part of coming to Jesus. That grace & faith are both from God.

The part I believe the most is salvation is a gift from God. I've always been able to give gifts back.

Do you believe in James 2:14-26, 1 Timothy 4:16, 2 Peter 2:20-22, & Matthew 24: 24?


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## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> Do you believe Eph. 2:8-9 ?



I know that I do.
I believe the thousands of verses prior to this one, and I believe the hundreds that come after it.

I believe the very next verse,  (10)  "10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them."

I'm also thankful for the gift revealed here:   Chap 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

But only a fool would look at this as being a lottery ticket that's gonna get him/her into heaven.
The whole of the Gospel message is not about getting hold of an assurance of heaven so that no one will lock me out.
The Gospel message is about living in that eternal existance even now.  It is now, right now.  Even with my sins and weaknesses.  Enjoying discipleship in Christ.  Arising every morning knowing that God has busted open another day for us.  Knowing that I've got one more day to see Him more clearly.

Assurance of salvation?  Man I don't need assurance!  I'm the prodigal son who's been reconciled to his father.
God has thrown me a party.  It's never going to end.
I'm not working my way to heaven.  I'm workin on my father's farm.


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## gordon 2

Ronnie T said:


> I know that I do.
> I believe the thousands of verses prior to this one, and I believe the hundreds that come after it.
> 
> I believe the very next verse,  (10)  "10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them."
> 
> I'm also thankful for the gift revealed here:   Chap 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
> 
> But only a fool would look at this as being a lottery ticket that's gonna get him/her into heaven.
> The whole of the Gospel message is not about getting hold of an assurance of heaven so that no one will lock me out.
> The Gospel message is about living in that eternal existance even now.  It is now, right now.  Even with my sins and weaknesses.  Enjoying discipleship in Christ.  Arising every morning knowing that God has busted open another day for us.  Knowing that I've got one more day to see Him more clearly.
> 
> Assurance of salvation?  Man I don't need assurance!  I'm the prodigal son who's been reconciled to his father.
> God has thrown me a party.  It's never going to end.
> I'm not working my way to heaven.  I'm workin on my father's farm.




Ah Ha! Now that's preaching!  Now do you find that planting your own seeds taken from the last yrs. crop does not give as good a yield as certified? I'm finding this... and where do you get your certified seeds?


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## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> If, and ,but, can, I hope so. This is not believing the Bible. Self righteousness {WORKS} This thread was started to help whosoever will look deeper into Gods Word. When was the last time you witnessed to someone and they asked you "What must I do to be Saved" and you told them you have to hold out "to the end"{faith and Works}Do you believe Eph. 2:8-9 ?



I can tell you are a firm believer in studying the Bible(KJV). What's the importance of doing so? Why can't new Christians go home and throw away the old family Bible? I can't see doing much for just a few more rewards, if you're in , you,re in.


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## Ronnie T

gordon 2 said:


> Ah Ha! Now that's preaching!  Now do you find that planting your own seeds taken from the last yrs. crop does not give as good a yield as certified? I'm finding this... and where do you get your certified seeds?



Certified seed is a subject I'm not up one.  A Christian friend of mine has just been named as the county cotton producer of the year.  According to him, there are some very expensive seeds available.  Some hybrids.  Some that have weed control built in.  Some that has pest control built in..
Our father's seed are better than any of those.


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## Artfuldodger

I would like to bring up "Blessed Hope". Hope is mentioned in the Bible. It goes hand in hand with faith & love.
1 Thessalonians 1:3 NIV We continually remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:16 NIV May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope,

Titus 3:7 NIV so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

1 John 3:3 – Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.
(How would one purify himself and for what reason?)


----------



## barryl

Artfuldodger said:


> I can tell you are a firm believer in studying the Bible(KJV). What's the importance of doing so? Why can't new Christians go home and throw away the old family Bible? I can't see doing much for just a few more rewards, if you're in ,you,re in.


What's the importance in doing so, we are called to witness, right? That's what new Christians do all the time, listen to some windbag telling them to listen to them instead of studying the word of God, Get rooted and grounded in the Word of God. Assurance of Salvation will make you or anyone else a much stronger Christian.Assurance of salvation is not presumption or pride, although unsaved people will say that. It is simply believing what God said, as God said it, where He said it. Just start back at the front of the thread with your Bible open and check God out. One word of advice, learn what all of the scripture has to say about all of the scripture.


----------



## barryl

Ronnie T said:


> I know that I do.
> I believe the thousands of verses prior to this one, and I believe the hundreds that come after it.
> 
> I believe the very next verse,  (10)  "10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them."
> 
> I'm also thankful for the gift revealed here:   Chap 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
> 
> But only a fool would look at this as being a lottery ticket that's gonna get him/her into heaven.
> The whole of the Gospel message is not about getting hold of an assurance of heaven so that no one will lock me out.
> The Gospel message is about living in that eternal existance even now.  It is now, right now.  Even with my sins and weaknesses.  Enjoying discipleship in Christ.  Arising every morning knowing that God has busted open another day for us.  Knowing that I've got one more day to see Him more clearly.
> 
> Assurance of salvation?  Man I don't need assurance!  I'm the prodigal son who's been reconciled to his father.
> God has thrown me a party.  It's never going to end.
> I'm not working my way to heaven.  I'm workin on my father's farm.


Maybe you don't, ever thought about a new Christian Convert? We are called to be a witness, right?


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## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> Maybe you don't, ever thought about a new Christian Convert? We are called to be a witness, right?



Yes sir, I agree.  Our witnessing, and impacting the lives of others, is our mission as prodigal children who've been reconciled to God.
The planting of the seed and the tilling of the soil.
We haven't been given the task of saving people.  God does that.  We've been asked, as were the apostles, to make disciples throughout the world.
We do that by leading people to God's word and giving them the good example of our lives.  Amen.


----------



## StriperAddict

Ronnie T said:


> Certified seed is a subject I'm not up one. A Christian friend of mine has just been named as the county cotton producer of the year. According to him, there are some very expensive seeds available. Some hybrids. Some that have weed control built in. Some that has pest control built in..
> Our father's seed are better than any of those.


 
Amen! Void of corruption, I might add. And as this, I believe, applies to the new creation, it's sealed in _His own_ craftmanship, holy blameless...  
I/(we) oft don't see ourselves as such, viewing thru the dark of our on flesh and thru a world marred by sin,
but I delight in the "perspective" and work He has done on our behalf.



barryl said:


> Assurance of Salvation will make you or anyone else a much stronger Christian. Assurance of salvation is not presumption or pride, although unsaved people will say that. It is simply believing what God said, as God said it, where He said it.


Another hearty amen.



barryl said:


> One word of advice, learn what all of the scripture has to say about all of the scripture.


Indeed, the greatest journey in life will be the leading of the Holy Spirit thru 66 books of scripture. 


I've enjoyed a look at most of this thread. Unless some 'bomb' comes out that causes a fire in my heart to light, I 'prolly won't set camp here  , nonetheless... carry on ! in His strength today


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## barryl

*Bible Biblical ?*

I saw on the another thread," I asked the osas'ers why would the Devil try to waste time trying to steal their Soul" Well I'll answer, He knows the Bible better{and believes} than the ones who think you can lose Salvation. He can steal bout' everything except a "Born Again" persons Soul !!!! Joy, Testimony, etc. Good example, Job! Take God at his word, you will be assured !


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## barryl

*Do you Believe?*

1 John 5:10-13 KJV AV 10- He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11- And this is the record, that God  hath given to us eternal life, and this life  is in his Son. 12- He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son Of God hath not life. 13- These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


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## centerpin fan

*Do you believe?*

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. - Phil. 2:12

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. - Matt. 7:21

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: - 2 Peter 1:10


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## Artfuldodger

"All this I do for the sake of the gospel, so that I too may have a share in it. Do you not know that the runners in the stadium all run in the race, but only one wins the prize? Run so as to win. Every athlete exercises discipline in every way. They do it to win a perishable crown, but we an imperishable one. Thus I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing. No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified." (1 Cor. 9:23-27)

"See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off." (Romans 11:22)

"If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries." (Hebrews 10:26-27)

"For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them." (2 Peter 2:20-21)


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## gemcgrew

"And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." (Ezekiel 36:27)

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> "And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." (Ezekiel 36:27)
> 
> "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)



And yet we still sin. How is it possible a strong Christian can overcome the power of the very Spirit of God within them and still sin?


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> And yet we still sin.


The old man sins, the new man sins not. The new man in us is Christ in us.

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (Galatians 2:20)

"For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." (Romans 7:14-23)


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## barryl

centerpin fan said:


> Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. - Phil. 2:12
> 
> Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. - Matt. 7:21
> 
> Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: - 2 Peter 1:10


Well, i noticed you didn't even attempt to put any commentary to the 1 John 5:10-13 scriptures. Read verse 13 again, especially about the part "These things have I written unto you". Lookin for some "ASSURANCE"? Believe the word of God.


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## barryl

Artfuldodger said:


> "All this I do for the sake of the gospel, so that I too may have a share in it. Do you not know that the runners in the stadium all run in the race, but only one wins the prize? Run so as to win. Every athlete exercises discipline in every way. They do it to win a perishable crown, but we an imperishable one. Thus I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing. No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified." (1 Cor. 9:23-27)
> 
> "See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off." (Romans 11:22)
> 
> "If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries." (Hebrews 10:26-27)
> 
> "For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them." (2 Peter 2:20-21)


Check post 375. Lookin for "ASSURANCE"? God put it in writing for you, Just believe the word of God.


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## barryl

gemcgrew said:


> The old man sins, the new man sins not. The new man in us is Christ in us.
> 
> "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)
> 
> "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (Galatians 2:20)
> 
> "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." (Romans 7:14-23)


Good ones GEM!!


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## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Well, i noticed you didn't even attempt to put any commentary to the 1 John 5:10-13 scriptures.



My only comment is I believe that passage as much as the ones I posted.


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## Artfuldodger

1 John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.

God is telling you to pray for this fellow Christian and he will give him eternal life. Unless his sin was too great in God's eyes to still grant him life. It's still God's choice but the verse shows you can lose salvation. It is also showing the power of prayer. Imagine your prayer being the power to lead someone to God. That is some power.


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> The old man sins, the new man sins not. The new man in us is Christ in us.
> 
> "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)
> 
> "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (Galatians 2:20)
> 
> "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." (Romans 7:14-23)



Sinless perfection comes after death. I pray to God to forgive me of my sins. I try to forgive others so he'll forgive me. If I don't I may not be forgiven.
1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.


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## Artfuldodger

Romans 7:14-23 tells the story of Paul's struggle with sin living in him even though the Spirit of God lives in him. He feels guilty for even having sinful thoughts. He doesn't know why he still has to struggle with sin. He has to struggle with sin because he was born in a sin nature. He has a regenerated Christian body already because he talks about a desire to be good and not evil yet he still struggles and doesn't understand. I think he finally learns to accept sin living in him and gets on with his life. 
Becoming a Christian doesn't relieve us of sinning. Christians struggle with sin & Satan. Satan is real and he comes after Christians. We have to use the power of the Holy Spirit to fight sin & Satan. Being a Christian doesn't give us permission to sin. Strong and true Christians struggle with sin & Satan daily. We can overcome sin but the struggle is still there. When I sin I feel really terrible. I feel like it is my fault. I feel that I didn't try hard enough to fight my corrupt passion. I guess it's because I believe I have  "will". I don't always make the right choices. This is why I believe I have a "will". I would wonder as Paul did "what in the world is going on here. I'm a Christian, why am I still sinning?" Thankfully I've read the story of Paul's struggle and it help's me with my struggle.


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> I try to forgive others so he'll forgive me. If I don't I may not be forgiven.


Sounds to me like you have a full plate.


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## barryl

Artfuldodger said:


> 1 John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.
> 
> God is telling you to pray for this fellow Christian and he will give him eternal life. Unless his sin was too great in God's eyes to still grant him life. It's still God's choice but the verse shows you can lose salvation. It is also showing the power of prayer. Imagine your prayer being the power to lead someone to God. That is some power.


Nice try,"God is telling you to pray for this {Christian}". See your problem is you can't "rightly divide the word of TRUTH". This Christian recieved eternal life when he "believed confessed with his mouth and believed in his heart"  Romans Ch. 10}   recieved the Lord Jesus Christ. "Behold, I{Christ} stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and sup with him, and he with me."- Rev. 3:20 I can't open the door for anyone. You just keep throwing out your "false applications", better yet, start your thread on "How your god isn't able to keep you saved" or "How not to rightly divide" or "Why use a Bible that you don't believe"[seen your post on the agnostics & Athiest Forum] Have you ever told a lie?  Read the verse in Rev. 2:2 {spiritual application}


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## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> Nice try,"God is telling you to pray for this {Christian}". See your problem is you can't "rightly divide the word of TRUTH". This Christian recieved eternal life when he "believed confessed with his mouth and believed in his heart"  Romans Ch. 10}   recieved the Lord Jesus Christ. "Behold, I{Christ} stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and sup with him, and he with me."- Rev. 3:20 I can't open the door for anyone. You just keep throwing out your "false applications", better yet, start your thread on "How your god isn't able to keep you saved" or "How not to rightly divide" or "Why use a Bible that you don't believe"[seen your post on the agnostics & Athiest Forum] Have you ever told a lie?  Read the verse in Rev. 2:2 {spiritual application}



Why should I pray for this fellow Christian if it won't do anything? 
I'm not the only Christian who doesn't believe in OSAS so they aren't my false applications. I got it out of the same Bible as you.  
The Bible is full of contradictions between free will & pre-destiny. Nothing in the Bible is cut & dry. Lots of gray areas. Some Christians say there isn't and they know the truth. They tell me if you read contradictions then you're not reading the Bible correctly. I need a copy of their Bible.
I don't believe the Bible is without errors as it is written by man so it and religion is second from God to me.
I think i've made myself clear on this topic on many threads. The WORD of God is way more to me than the written word. We would still have the word of God without the written word. We had many scriptures available before some group of men compiled certain ones into a book. It is the part of the WORD that is written and I do believe in the Bible.
This post was on "Blessed Assurance" and I apologize for giving an honest counter belief. We've already debated this topic in threads on TULIP, OSAS, Beliefs required for salvation, why Christians don't obey New Testament Commandments, or  whether the command from God to forgive others is required for salvation. I don't think a new thread is needed.


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> This post was on "Blessed Assurance" and I apologize for giving an honest counter belief.


Is your assurance in Christ or self? Is it in your faith and obedience?


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## barryl

Artfuldodger said:


> Why should I pray for this fellow Christian if it won't do anything?
> I'm not the only Christian who doesn't believe in OSAS so they aren't my false applications. I got it out of the same Bible as you.
> The Bible is full of contradictions between free will & pre-destiny. Nothing in the Bible is cut & dry. Lots of gray areas. Some Christians say there isn't and they know the truth. They tell me if you read contradictions then you're not reading the Bible correctly. I need a copy of their Bible.
> I don't believe the Bible is without errors as it is written by man so it and religion is second from God to me.
> I think i've made myself clear on this topic on many threads. The WORD of God is way more to me than the written word. We would still have the word of God without the written word. We had many scriptures available before some group of men compiled certain ones into a book. It is the part of the WORD that is written and I do believe in the Bible.
> This post was on "Blessed Assurance" and I apologize for giving an honest counter belief. We've already debated this topic in threads on TULIP, OSAS, Beliefs required for salvation, why Christians don't obey New Testament Commandments, or  whether the command from God to forgive others is required for salvation. I don't think a new thread is needed.


   "I don't believe the Bible is without errors".   There is your problem, you don't believe  Ps 12:6,7.There are no contradictions in the Word of God and you are reading it wrong if you think there is!  Your problem is Your opinion. There was a time I did the same thing, I was wrong!! "I need a copy of their Bible." You've got one, just stick to it. John 1:12-13, But as many as recieved him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. KJV AV Throw away the {blanket theory}, learn to "rightly divide."


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Is your assurance in Christ or self? Is it in your faith and obedience?



Grace of God is of utmost importance but it all works together. He might decide to use his all supreme power and take his gift back. 
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" Ephesians 2:8

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Matthew 5:16

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. Revelation 22:12

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? James 2:14

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him. Hebrews 5:9

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9

And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Matthew 19:16-19

 If ye love me, keep my commandments. John 14:15.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.1 John 5:3.

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3,4.

And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.1 John 3:24.

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:12.


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> Grace of God is of utmost importance but it all works together.


What works together? God's grace and your works?


Artfuldodger said:


> He might decide to use his all supreme power and take his gift back.


If He is as fickle minded as you make him out to be, he probably will.


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> What works together? God's grace and your works?
> 
> If He is as fickle minded as you make him out to be, he probably will.



God's grace, my faith and obedience.

God isn't fickle but he does have free will. Prayer is a good example. If I do something good, God likes it. If I do something evil, God hates it. There is a cause and effect.
A reward or punishment from a loving and wrathful God.


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> God's grace, my faith and obedience.


I understand. That would explain the lack of assurance.


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## barryl

Got to keep it short today, got a brother that needs my help!  I'm goin to try to keep a commandment, workin' because I have been "SAVED", not to stay saved.


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## Artfuldodger

Wow, I've found my answer in Galatians. 
Galatians 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
(people were still trying to justify themselves by the law instead of using Christ) (they were falling away from grace) I learned two things there.
Galatians 5:7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth?
Galatians 5:10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion will pay the penalty, whoever he may be.
(they were listening to fellow Christians who didn't know what they were talking about)
Galatians 5:13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. (learned we have free will)
(this is where the important part starts,LOVE, and the quit sinning part. This quit sinning part is not the same as trying to follow the LAW.)
Galatians 5:14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
(this is a very hard commandment, yet it is a command, not a request,)
Galatians 5:16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
(learn to trust the Holy Spirit as your guide)
Galatians 5:17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.
(Uh Oh, it's still gonna be a struggle, even with the Holy Spirit's guidance)
Galatians 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. (IF, being the key word, Not under the law, but what about sin? Don't worry, it's coming up real soon) ( Oh, here it is)
Galatians 5:19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions: 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will NOT INHERIT the kingdom of God. (I was afraid this was going to be in the Bible)
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
(these fruits are the proper WORKS of the human heart provided you follow the advice of the Holy Spirit and not your sinful nature. It's still your choice as a Christian which choices you make, sinful nature or fruits of the Spirit. If you decide to follow your sinful nature, you won't inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.)

Love being the single command possibly might be the key to everything. Now that I've discovered the KEY, I'll see if I can pratice what I just learned. This isn't going to be a simple journey. Maybe this journey is what the Bible calls Sanctification. Since I believe in the power of prayer and I know all ya'll have free will, verse 13 said so, please pray for me and others as we travel on the path of Sanctification & loving our neighbor.


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## barryl

Gal. 5:4 The context of Ch. 5 was simply trying to mix Law and Grace. Might ought to check if the ones being talked about were even "saved." "Not being a simple journey," It takes no effort to do the wrong thing, but it takes effort to do the right thing. There is a differance in "The Kingdom of God" and "The Kingdom of Heaven." Gal 5:4 was discussed back on Page 1 of this Thread, Ronnie T post 19, and me, B.L. post #23. Sanctification, post #48. Oh Yeah, I'm prayin for all of ya!!


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## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> Gal. 5:4 The context of Ch. 5 was simply trying to mix Law and Grace. Might ought to check if the ones being talked about were even "saved." "Not being a simple journey," It takes no effort to do the wrong thing, but it takes effort to do the right thing. There is a differance in "The Kingdom of God" and "The Kingdom of Heaven." Gal 5:4 was discussed back on Page 1 of this Thread, Ronnie T post 19, and me, B.L. post #23. Sanctification, post #48. Oh Yeah, I'm prayin for all of ya!!



Most definitely talking about using the Law for Justification instead of Christ. Most definitely talking about Christians. 

Question: "What is the difference between the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven?"

Answer: While some believe that the Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven are referring to different things, it is clear that both phrases are referring to the same thing.
http://www.gotquestions.org/kingdom-heaven-God.html


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## barryl

Artfuldodger said:


> Most definitely talking about using the Law for Justification instead of Christ. Most definitely talking about Christians.
> 
> Question: "What is the difference between the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven?"
> 
> Answer: While some believe that the Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven are referring to different things, it is clear that both phrases are referring to the same thing.
> http://www.gotquestions.org/kingdom-heaven-God.html


"Kingdom of Heaven" Matt. 3:2 Remember this, every verse of scripture has 3 applications {spiritual, Doctrinal and Historical} John the Baptist,Judean-Jew, out of the Judean wilderness. No New Testament, no knowledge of the New Birth, the Crucifiction, or the Resurrection. No other knowledge, except what God showed him in the O.T. John{Jew} does not come preaching the Death, Burial, and Resurection of Christ. 1 Cor. 15:1-4 His mission is to manifest Christ to ISREAL, not to the Church or to the Gentiles. John 1:31 Kingdom of Heaven Dan. 2:44-45, 7:13,27 All scripture references, KJV AV If you can't see the difference by now, I'll keep going tomorrow. "Study to show thyself approved"


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## Artfuldodger

I'm not sure what it is but I want to inherit it.


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## barryl

barryl said:


> "Kingdom of Heaven" Matt. 3:2 Remember this, every verse of scripture has 3 applications {spiritual, Doctrinal and Historical} John the Baptist,Judean-Jew, out of the Judean wilderness. No New Testament, no knowledge of the New Birth, the Crucifiction, or the Resurrection. No other knowledge, except what God showed him in the O.T. John{Jew} does not come preaching the Death, Burial, and Resurection of Christ. 1 Cor. 15:1-4 His mission is to manifest Christ to ISREAL, not to the Church or to the Gentiles. John 1:31 Kingdom of Heaven Dan. 2:44-45, 7:13,27 All scripture references, KJV AV If you can't see the difference by now, I'll keep going tomorrow. "Study to show thyself approved"


2 Tim. 3:16


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## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> 2 Tim. 3:16



All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
All Scripture - This properly refers to the Old Testament, and should not be applied to any part of the New Testament, unless it can be shown that that part was then written, and was included under the general name of "the Scriptures;" compare 2 Peter 3:15-16.

Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God - This sentence is not well translated; the original πασα γραφη θεοκνευστος ωφιλιμος προς διδασκαλιαν, κ. τ. λ. should be rendered: Every writing Divinely inspired is profitable for doctrine, etc. The particle και, and, is omitted by almost all the versions and many of the fathers, and certainly does not agree well with the text. The apostle is here, beyond all controversy, speaking of the writings of the Old Testament, which, because they came by Divine inspiration, he terms the Holy Scriptures, 2 Timothy 3:15; and it is of them alone that this passage is to be understood; and although all the New Testament came by as direct an inspiration as the Old, yet, as it was not collected at that time, not indeed complete, the apostle could have no reference to it.

2 Peter 3:15 -18 
15Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 

17Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and FALL FROM YOUR SECURE POSITION. 18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen. 
(make sure you are on your guard so that you don't fall from your secure position)


----------



## barryl

Artfuldodger said:


> All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
> 
> Barnes' Notes on the Bible
> All Scripture - This properly refers to the Old Testament, and should not be applied to any part of the New Testament, unless it can be shown that that part was then written, and was included under the general name of "the Scriptures;" compare 2 Peter 3:15-16.
> 
> Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
> All Scripture is given by inspiration of God - This sentence is not well translated; the original Ï€Î±ÏƒÎ± Î³Ï�Î±Ï†Î· Î¸ÎµÎ¿ÎºÎ½ÎµÏ…ÏƒÏ„Î¿Ï‚ Ï‰Ï†Î¹Î»Î¹Î¼Î¿Ï‚ Ï€Ï�Î¿Ï‚ Î´Î¹Î´Î±ÏƒÎºÎ±Î»Î¹Î±Î½, Îº. Ï„. Î». should be rendered: Every writing Divinely inspired is profitable for doctrine, etc. The particle ÎºÎ±Î¹, and, is omitted by almost all the versions and many of the fathers, and certainly does not agree well with the text. The apostle is here, beyond all controversy, speaking of the writings of the Old Testament, which, because they came by Divine inspiration, he terms the Holy Scriptures, 2 Timothy 3:15; and it is of them alone that this passage is to be understood; and although all the New Testament came by as direct an inspiration as the Old, yet, as it was not collected at that time, not indeed complete, the apostle could have no reference to it.
> 
> 2 Peter 3:15 -18
> 15Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
> 
> 17Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and FALL FROM YOUR SECURE POSITION. 18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.
> (make sure you are on your guard so that you don't fall from your secure position)


Don't know Clark, don't know Barnes, sounds to me like they don't believe the Inspired word of God no more than you do. Maybe you runnin' with the wrong crowd.


----------



## barryl

So whats left to debate? After 398, 399 posts? Is that Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek? I know English and all this stuff you are trying to find out about is already settled in my HEART. There is no debate on my end, just trying to Edify.


----------



## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> So whats left to debate? After 398, 399 posts? Is that Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek? I know English and all this stuff you are trying to find out about is already settled in my HEART. There is no debate on my end, just trying to Edify.



I think you are right on this debate. 
You might be right on the two dudes I referenced on the meaning of what constitutes the word "scriptures" used in the New Testament. Albert Barnes was tried for heresy but not convicted. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Barnes_(theologian)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Clarke


----------



## barryl

Artfuldodger said:


> I think you are right on this debate.
> You might be right on the two dudes I referenced on the meaning of what constitutes the word "scriptures" used in the New Testament. Albert Barnes was tried for heresy but not convicted.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Barnes_(theologian)
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Clarke


Don't worry, I don't get on these Forums to try to win anything. The truth is not debatable, I just try to edify. I'm awfully interested in "SOUND DOCTRINE."


----------



## barryl

"I will never leave you thee, nor forsake thee." Hebrews 13:5   Deut. 31:6 Can't beat this guarantee!  KJV AV, naturally!!


----------



## barryl

You can be sure!! John 6:47 Verily, verily I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath ever-lasting life.


----------



## barryl

Oh, What a Savior!!!!!! John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into comdemnation;  but is passed from death unto life.


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## centerpin fan

barryl, you certainly get an "A" for effort.


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## barryl

Need more "ASSURANCE" ? John 17:2-3 KJV AV Notice that the words are written in "RED".


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## Lowjack

20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.Isaiah 8;20


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## barryl

John 10:28 KJV AV "Eternal Life"


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## barryl

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. KJV AV


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## SemperFiDawg

Artfuldodger maybe I can add something to help.  We all can throw out scriptures to justify our positions,  but I find a little reasoning helps too.  I see it like this:  When I accepted Christ as my savior and was saved, at that point God not only knew all of the sins I had ever committed, but also all of the ones I would commit in the future.   He knew this and saved me anyway, so why would he penalize me later by taking my salvation when I committed those sins.  It would seem it has to be an all or none proposition, if not then it becomes a giant shell game and the integrity of the entire gospel falls apart.


----------



## StriperAddict

Well said SemperFi.

I like what Jesus said about the wineskins. He said you can't put new wine (reference to the Holy Spirit within) into old skins (reference to the old sin nature), because those old skins cannot contain the glory of His presence.
Steve McVey asks a good question in "GraceWalk":
Would God deliberately "set up" the Christian (for failure) by giving him 2 conflicting identities... one loyal to God, the other equally loal to the devil? (No!!) Such would be an act I call spiritual scitzophrenia! Light (Holy Spirit) can never combine with darkness (old sin nature) which was crucified & eradicated.

It never "feels" as if our old man/old nature is dead, but God is clear about that throughout the scriptures, esp. Romans & Galatians.
This doesn't mean we will live a life of sinless perfection, but our conflict with flesh (where the power of sin resides... not as a "nature", but a power within our bodies) and spirit will go on as long as we are in this world.
This is why we "present our members" to God and submit to the renewing of the mind.  It is our behavior that God is about changing (sanctification) as we surrender daily to Him.


----------



## barryl

A BIG AMEN, Fellows !!!!!!!!!!


----------



## LongBow01

Artfuldodger said:


> I never heard of OSAS or the elect growing up in a Baptist Church. My sister believes in OSAS. I reckon the whole world believes in OSAS except me and Ronnie. I was taught that I was responsible for my own actions. I was taught that God would Punish me if I did wrong. It kept me in line knowing God would punish me. If i had believed in OSAS as a teenager, wow!
> This was a Southern Baptist Church but most of my beliefs were from my Mom as it was her job to do the child rearing. She wasn't allowed to wear shorts, play cards, say "I swear" or "you're lying", etc. growing up. Her grandparents raised her and the went to New Hope Baptist Church in Ambrose, Georgia.
> It's weird to me how whole belief systems can change & evolve over time. I wonder if the members of New Hope follow my Great Grandparents beliefs.



Whats OSAS??


----------



## Artfuldodger

LongBow01 said:


> Whats OSAS??



Acronym for "once saved, always saved."


----------



## LongBow01

Oh well I dont see where the Bible teaches that at all.


----------



## centerpin fan

LongBow01 said:


> Oh well I dont see where the Bible teaches that at all.


----------



## GunnSmokeer

*interested*

I hear that a bunch of early Christians believed in once saved-saved for life, with all your future sins already paid for. So actually committing them was no big deal.

Many people feel this way today, or at least they act like intentional sin is no big deal.

Which apostle said that if you choose to sin after you claim to have taken up the way of the Lord, you were mistaken and didn't really accept the Lord after all??  (I read that somewhere)  THe theory is that it's impossible to sin after truly becoming one with the Lord in spirit. Impossible.


----------



## barryl

centerpin fan said:


>


 Did you put the last two posters up to it ? Pass the Popcorn, I'm fresh out !!


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Did you put the last two posters up to it ?



It wasn't me!


----------



## Artfuldodger

I was just reading about two commandments from the New Testament. One was to love God and the other was to love your neighbor. Two very simple commands. Another  simple command is to forgive others but if you loved your neighbor?
Commandments non the less.


----------



## gemcgrew

LongBow01 said:


> Oh well I dont see where the Bible teaches that at all.


"For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." (John 6:38,39)

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." (John 10:27-29)

"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." (Romans 8:30)

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" (Philippians 1:6)


----------



## barryl

You know what one of the most "Dangerous" things in the World is ? A man that does not know what he does not know !!


----------



## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> You know what one of the most "Dangerous" things in the World is ? A man that does not know what he does not know !!



Or, a man who does not know what he thinks he knows.

Or, a man who's been educated beyond his intelligence.


----------



## StriperAddict

barryl said:


> You know what one of the most "Dangerous" things in the World is ? A man that does not know what he does not know !!


 


Ronnie T said:


> Or, a man who does not know what he thinks he knows.
> 
> Or, a man who's been educated beyond his intelligence.


 
Ahhhh, but for the love and grace of God to trump all our failings and our achedemia >spelling?<, or _want_ thereof!  
It's not to say we can't learn from each other in our musings over doctrine, but lately I'm content that even in the worst of dialogue (usually mine!) that I might get that bit of shadow of what is beyond words,
and how much our Lord longs for us to know Him in the depths of our being.

When Christ is preached,in pretext or in truth... we can still rejoice.

That fumbling diciple of His may not be much for words (for clarification, I say this with no one else in mind - except myself, but no boast intended), but God's grace is beyond those failings at expression.  

Our Lord molds His clay at His will, for His good purpose. 

And he/she learns, whose heart is intimately known of his Master above.


----------



## barryl

Romans Ch.5:15-21   BTT


----------



## Ronnie T

StriperAddict said:


> Ahhhh, but for the love and grace of God to trump all our failings and our achedemia >spelling?<, or _want_ thereof!
> It's not to say we can't learn from each other in our musings over doctrine, but lately I'm content that even in the worst of dialogue (usually mine!) that I might get that bit of shadow of what is beyond words,
> and how much our Lord longs for us to know Him in the depths of our being.
> 
> When Christ is preached,in pretext or in truth... we can still rejoice.
> 
> That fumbling diciple of His may not be much for words (for clarification, I say this with no one else in mind - except myself, but no boast intended), but God's grace is beyond those failings at expression.
> 
> Our Lord molds His clay at His will, for His good purpose.
> 
> And he/she learns, whose heart is intimately known of his Master above.



Amen.  Who would know our heart better than our Master?  Amen again.


----------



## barryl

You can be "Sure". BTT


----------



## gemcgrew

barryl said:


> You can be "Sure". BTT


"For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." (Romans 11:29)


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." (Romans 11:29)




(NASB)25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,......
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.


----------



## gemcgrew

Yes, the gift of Grace is irrevocable.


----------



## Ronnie T

Is that what that says?  How bout highlighting that for me in the verses.
.


----------



## Ronnie T

Romans 9:I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Is that what that says?  How bout highlighting that for me in the verses.
> .



In verse 29, gifts(charisma: a gift of grace, a free gift)


----------



## hobbs27

gemcgrew said:


> In verse 29, gifts(charisma: a gift of grace, a free gift)



I guess that solves that!


----------



## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> I guess that solves that!



Flows pretty good with Ephesians 2:8, doesn't it?


----------



## hobbs27

gemcgrew said:


> Flows pretty good with Ephesians 2:8, doesn't it?



Yes, but the more I learn about my Lord the more I see Grace and Faith from Genesis to Revelations. The OT is the NT concealed and the NT is the OT revealed. It all points to Jesus!


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> In verse 29, gifts(charisma: a gift of grace, a free gift)





hobbs27 said:


> I guess that solves that!



No, I still disagree with the use of those scriptures.
I just got tired.  Maybe I'm A.D.D.


----------



## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> Yes, but the more I learn about my Lord the more I see Grace and Faith from Genesis to Revelations. The OT is the NT concealed and the NT is the OT revealed. It all points to Jesus!



Amen!


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> No, I still disagree with the use of those scriptures.
> I just got tired.  Maybe I'm A.D.D.


Some folks are just happier when they are insecure.


----------



## Ronnie T

I personally believe God's grace has always been revocable.  Hasn't God always shown himself to give and take His mercy and other gifts as He wishes.  With no concern of what we might think of Him for doing it.  Ephesians 2 verses contain nothing to change my mind.

All the way into the book of Revelation we see it.  Jesus told more than one church that He would remove their lamp stand.  That He would take the gift that had been given.

I seldom tell God what He can or cannot do.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> Some folks are just happier when they are insecure.



Insecure?  Not at all.
Why, I was just talking to my Lord a few minutes ago.
.
But I suspect Israel was feeling pretty insecure as they stumbled over all the dry-brush in the desert.
.


----------



## Big7

*Here's the deal.*

In order to make sure you go to Heaven when you croak
you MUST be in a sanctifying state of grace and free of grievous or mortal sin from the soul or you are going to the hot place.
Individual salvation
The Council of Trent describes the process of salvation from sin in the case of an adult with great minuteness (Sess. VI, v-vi). 

It begins with the grace of God which touches a sinner's heart, and calls him to repentance. This grace cannot be merited; it proceeds solely from the love and mercy of God. Man may receive or reject this inspiration of God, he may turn to God or remain in sin. Grace does not constrain man's free will. 
Thus assisted the sinner is disposed for salvation from sin; he believes in the revelation and promises of God, he fears God's justice, hopes in his mercy, trusts that God will be merciful to him for Christ's sake, begins to love God as the source of all justice, hates and detests his sins. 

This disposition is followed by justification itself, which consists not in the mere remission of sins, but in the sanctification and renewal of the inner man by the voluntary reception of God's grace and gifts, whence a man becomes just instead of unjust, a friend instead of a foe and so an heir according to hope of eternal life. This change happens either by reason of a perfect act of charity elicited by a well disposed sinner or by virtue of the Sacrament either of Baptism or of Penance according to the condition of the respective subject laden with sin. The Council further indicates the causes of this change. By the merit of the Most Holy Passion through the Holy Spirit, the charity of God is shed abroad in the hearts of those who are justified. 

Against the heretical tenets of various times and sects we must hold 

that the initial grace is truly gratuitous and supernatural; 
that the human will remains free under the influence of this grace; 
that man really cooperates in his personal salvation from sin; 
that by justification man is really made just, and not merely declared or reputed so; 
that justification and sanctification are only two aspects of the same thing, and not ontologically and chronologically distinct realities; 
that justification excludes all mortal sin from the soul, so that the just man is no way liable to the sentence of death at God's judgment-seat. 
Other points involved in the foregoing process of personal salvation from sin are matters of discussion among Catholic theologians; such are, for instance, 
the precise nature of initial grace, 
the manner in which grace and free will work together, 
the precise nature of the fear and the love disposing the sinner for justification, 
the manner in which sacraments cause sanctifying grace. 
But these questions are treated in other articles dealing ex professo with the respective subjects. The same is true of final perseverance without which personal salvation from sin is not permanently secured. 

What has been said applies to the salvation of adults; children and those permanently deprived of their use of reason are saved by the Sacrament of Baptism. 

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13407a.htm


----------



## barryl

Big7 said:


> In order to make sure you go to Heaven when you croak
> you MUST be in a sanctifying state of grace and free of grievous or mortal sin from the soul or you are going to the hot place.
> Individual salvation
> The Council of Trent describes the process of salvation from sin in the case of an adult with great minuteness (Sess. VI, v-vi).
> 
> It begins with the grace of God which touches a sinner's heart, and calls him to repentance. This grace cannot be merited; it proceeds solely from the love and mercy of God. Man may receive or reject this inspiration of God, he may turn to God or remain in sin. Grace does not constrain man's free will.
> Thus assisted the sinner is disposed for salvation from sin; he believes in the revelation and promises of God, he fears God's justice, hopes in his mercy, trusts that God will be merciful to him for Christ's sake, begins to love God as the source of all justice, hates and detests his sins.
> 
> This disposition is followed by justification itself, which consists not in the mere remission of sins, but in the sanctification and renewal of the inner man by the voluntary reception of God's grace and gifts, whence a man becomes just instead of unjust, a friend instead of a foe and so an heir according to hope of eternal life. This change happens either by reason of a perfect act of charity elicited by a well disposed sinner or by virtue of the Sacrament either of Baptism or of Penance according to the condition of the respective subject laden with sin. The Council further indicates the causes of this change. By the merit of the Most Holy Passion through the Holy Spirit, the charity of God is shed abroad in the hearts of those who are justified.
> 
> Against the heretical tenets of various times and sects we must hold
> 
> that the initial grace is truly gratuitous and supernatural;
> that the human will remains free under the influence of this grace;
> that man really cooperates in his personal salvation from sin;
> that by justification man is really made just, and not merely declared or reputed so;
> that justification and sanctification are only two aspects of the same thing, and not ontologically and chronologically distinct realities;
> that justification excludes all mortal sin from the soul, so that the just man is no way liable to the sentence of death at God's judgment-seat.
> Other points involved in the foregoing process of personal salvation from sin are matters of discussion among Catholic theologians; such are, for instance,
> the precise nature of initial grace,
> the manner in which grace and free will work together,
> the precise nature of the fear and the love disposing the sinner for justification,
> the manner in which sacraments cause sanctifying grace.
> But these questions are treated in other articles dealing ex professo with the respective subjects. The same is true of final perseverance without which personal salvation from sin is not permanently secured.
> 
> What has been said applies to the salvation of adults; children and those permanently deprived of their use of reason are saved by the Sacrament of Baptism.
> 
> http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13407a.htm


Hey #7, Thanks but no thanks for the info. I got this here KJV AV Bible which is the inspired word of God and it tells me in 1 Cor. 15:1-4, That this is the gospel to Gentiles{Body of Christ} Since you have been Hypnotized by the RCC and The COC{Southern Catholics} into biting on the sacrements and traditions into swallowing that giant sinker that will take you down just like it takes all that believe the Acts 2:38 jig. There it is, and I didn't have to google a thing, just open the word of God and "study to show thyself approved", not fall into believing the perversions of a theocratic church state.


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Hey #7, Thanks but no thanks for the info. I got this here KJV AV Bible which is the inspired word of God and it tells me in 1 Cor. 15:1-4, That this is the gospel to Gentiles{Body of Christ} Since you have been Hypnotized by the RCC and The COC{Southern Catholics}



LOL

Ronnie should add "Come worship with us Southern Catholics" to his church marquee.

How about it, Ronnie?




barryl said:


> Since you have been Hypnotized by the RCC and The COC{Southern Catholics} into biting on the sacrements and traditions into swallowing that giant sinker that will take you down just like it takes all that believe the Acts 2:38 jig.



Maybe Big7 was saved in a church that believes in OSAS before he became Catholic.  If that's the case, nothing can take him down.  Although I'm not Catholic, that is exactly what happened to me.


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Since you have been Hypnotized by the RCC and The COC{Southern Catholics} into biting on the sacrements and traditions into swallowing that giant sinker that will take you down just like it takes all that believe the Acts 2:38 jig.



You never did say whether or not Acts 2 salvation was different from Acts 10 salvation.


----------



## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> Hey #7, Thanks but no thanks for the info. I got this here KJV AV Bible which is the inspired word of God and it tells me in 1 Cor. 15:1-4, That this is the gospel to Gentiles{Body of Christ} Since you have been Hypnotized by the RCC and The COC{Southern Catholics} into biting on the sacrements and traditions into swallowing that giant sinker that will take you down just like it takes all that believe the Acts 2:38 jig. There it is, and I didn't have to google a thing, just open the word of God and "study to show thyself approved", not fall into believing the perversions of a theocratic church state.



Please explain "that giant sinker that will take you down."
You aren't talking about losing salvation or salvation not being granted to someone who goes beyond the basic belief in "grace alone" are you?
I understand your belief that once a Catholic is saved by grace, they don't have to do much more, believe, repent, Etc. But if they want to do more or even if they believe they must do more, does that affect their salvation?
Because if it does you just dis-proved your own belief of "grace alone" and "blessed assurance."


----------



## Ronnie T

I don't think anyone can ever go wrong by simply doing precisely what the Gospel says.

And the biggest difference I can see in Acts 2 salvation and Acts 10 salvation is this:  Acts 2 words were spoken to those who were seeking salvation in Christ.  Acts 10 words were spoken to those who were already saved, and Acts 10 words weren't spoken in response to the question.


----------



## barryl

You boys are a joke, you mean to tell me you can't{Or won't} distinguish the difference, Acts 2 Peter is preaching the Kingdom message to the "every one of you"{36, House of Isreal}than Acts 10, Gentiles-Cornelius.


----------



## barryl

Ronnie T said:


> I don't think anyone can ever go wrong by simply doing precisely what the Gospel says.
> 
> And the biggest difference I can see in Acts 2 salvation and Acts 10 salvation is this:  Acts 2 words were spoken to those who were seeking salvation in Christ.  Acts 10 words were spoken to those who were already saved, and Acts 10 words weren't spoken in response to the question.


Tell us what the Gospel says.


----------



## hobbs27

I guess I missed it too, I thought He preached to every nation under heaven as the prophesy declared would be done.

ACTS 2:5 Who were dwelling at Jerusalem?

And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.


ACTS 2:14 Didnt the message go to those dwelling at Jerusalem? 


But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> You boys are a joke, you mean to tell me you can't{Or won't} distinguish the difference, Acts 2 Peter is preaching the Kingdom message to the "every one of you"{36, House of Isreal}than Acts 10, Gentiles-Cornelius.



The audience is obviously different.  My question is:

Are there different gospels for Jews and Gentiles?


----------



## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> You boys are a joke, you mean to tell me you can't{Or won't} distinguish the difference, Acts 2 Peter is preaching the Kingdom message to the "every one of you"{36, House of Isreal}than Acts 10, Gentiles-Cornelius.





centerpin fan said:


> The audience is obviously different.  My question is:
> 
> Are there different gospels for Jews and Gentiles?



Barry, do you teach a class or anything like that?
.


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## barryl

barryl said:


> Tell us what the Gospel says.


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## centerpin fan

barryl said:


>





centerpin fan said:


> Are there different gospels for Jews and Gentiles?


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## barryl

Here you go boys, heres the "Good News", 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV AV


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## Ronnie T

The Gospel equals "the good news".

There's John the Baptist's good news.
There's Jesus' good news.
Peter had good news on more than one occasions.
Paul had good news.
Actually, the life of Christ and His apostles is filled with good news.


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## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> Here you go boys, heres the "Good News", 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV AV



That's a good verse.

I also like Peter's sermons in Acts 2, 3 and 4.


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## barryl

Ronnie T said:


> That's a good verse.
> 
> I also like Peter's sermons in Acts 2, 3 and 4.


O.K. Which one?


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## barryl

Thought I'd bump this thread up in case anyone wanted to see.


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## Big7

Ronnie T said:


> I've always been amazed at some people's/group's preoccupation with this subject.
> It certainly wasn't a subject that any of the apostles or disciples taught in book of Acts.
> The subject itself is not taught in Romans or any of the other writings.
> OSAS is a phrase I never ever speak or hear until I get on this forum.  I don't study it in the Bible, and I don't need it to find comfort and assurance of my own salvation.
> Jesus is the Lord of my life, that's why I know I'm going to heaven.
> 
> "Assurance of Salvation??"  Someplace in America tonight, there's bound to be small groups of people gathered together, drinking, using drugs, dealing with hangovers, etc.  At some point they'll get into a discussion of God and religion.  At least a few of them, thought they've never even accepted Jesus as their Lord, will claim they are "certain" they are 'as saved as anybody else'.
> Your "assurance" means nothing to God unless it's based upon Christ as your Lord.
> Remember what Jesus said:  "Not all who say unto me Lord Lord will enter into the kingdom of God, but he that......... what now, what did he say?..... You know what he said.
> 
> No one will ever enter heaven because they worked themselves there.
> No one will ever be in heaven because of OSASed.
> 
> They'll be there because Jesus was the Lord of their life and they had become His disciple.



Great post Mr. Ronnie.

OSAS is not taught anywhere in the Bible.

Faith without works is dead.. However.
That is taught in James and a few more.

Peace to you Brother!


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## barryl

(O.T. Salvation) Faith+Works= Salvation, (N.T. Salvation) Salvation= Faith+Works


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## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> (O.T. Salvation) Faith+Works= Salvation, (N.T. Salvation) Salvation= Faith+Works



I think I know what you meant to say, but your math is off.  There is no difference between this:

A + B = C

... and this:

C = A + B


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## Ronnie T

centerpin fan said:


> I think I know what you meant to say, but your math is off.  There is no difference between this:
> 
> A + B = C
> 
> ... and this:
> 
> C = A + B



Are you kidding me?  That's profound.  Profound I tell you.   

Scriptural also.


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## Artfuldodger

That sounds like fuzzy math but I believe if you want assurance then you have it, but if you don't then you can walk away. God will hold you in his hands but if you decide you don't won't to be held then God will set you free. It breaks a Father's heart to do this but he will wait patiently for your return. If you return, the Father will rejoice and celebrate. Freedom is amazing but it's not forced. I could decide tomorrow to convert to Hinduism. This doesn't mean I was never saved.


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## M80

SemperFiDawg said:


> Artfuldodger maybe I can add something to help.  We all can throw out scriptures to justify our positions,  but I find a little reasoning helps too.  I see it like this:  When I accepted Christ as my savior and was saved, at that point God not only knew all of the sins I had ever committed, but also all of the ones I would commit in the future.   He knew this and saved me anyway, so why would he penalize me later by taking my salvation when I committed those sins.  It would seem it has to be an all or none proposition, if not then it becomes a giant shell game and the integrity of the entire gospel falls apart.



Love it. I can't believe I missed all this, but y'all know where I stand on this subject.


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## M80

gemcgrew said:


> "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." (John 6:38,39)
> 
> "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." (John 10:27-29)
> 
> "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." (Romans 8:30)
> 
> "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" (Philippians 1:6)




Love it


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## M80

Ronnie T said:


> Insecure?  Not at all.
> Why, I was just talking to my Lord a few minutes ago.
> .
> But I suspect Israel was feeling pretty insecure as they stumbled over all the dry-brush in the desert.
> .



I can pick on you now that your retired mod

Why do you bring up Israel when discussing eternal salvation. We are under a new covenant according to Hebrews.


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## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> I can pick on you now that your retired mod
> 
> Why do you bring up Israel when discussing eternal salvation. We are under a new covenant according to Hebrews.



Because the Gospel of Jesus Christ brought them up several times.
The book of Hebrews uses the desert situation of a teaching point for Christians.

It's scriptural.  (I always enjoy people picking on me).


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## barryl

centerpin fan said:


> I think I know what you meant to say, but your math is off.  There is no difference between this:
> 
> A + B = C
> 
> ... and this:
> 
> C = A + B


No difference? A+B=C, A(faith) + B(Works) = Salvation. The Mosaic Law was given to "The House of Israel", ever read the book of "Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy? The blood of Bulls and Goats only put off sins(remission) Heb. 9:11-23 Israel had to atone{Annually} over and over. Heb. 10:1-12 The "1" time sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ at the Cross of Calvary took care of that(sins) "once for all." Heb. 10:10,14. KJV AV C=A+B Salvation(Jesus paid it all, all to him I owe)=A(faith) + B(works)  According to my KJV AV Bible, Isaiah 64:6 "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags." So the best you or me could do ain't worth two cent. Two things that are similar are the same? My math fuzzy?


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## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> The Mosaic Law was given to "The House of Israel", ever read the book of "Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy?



Yes.




barryl said:


> ... "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags." So the best you or me could do ain't worth two cent.



Agreed.




barryl said:


> My math fuzzy?



Yes, it is.  There is no difference between these two equations:

A + B = C

C = A + B

2 + 3 = 5

5 = 2 + 3

Maybe the chemistry sign for "yields" ( ---> ) would be better.


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## barryl

CP, it's called earnestly "contending for the faith." Jude 3-4 KJV AV The mysteries of God can be tough on a fellow, can't they?


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## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> CP, it's called earnestly "contending for the faith." Jude 3-4 KJV AV



My Nearly Inspired Version agrees.


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## barryl

centerpin fan said:


> My Nearly Inspired Version agrees.


 Don't you mean "Non" Inspired Version?


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## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> CP, it's called earnestly "contending for the faith." Jude 3-4 KJV AV The mysteries of God can be tough on a fellow, can't they?



..... are they?


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## barryl

Ronnie T said:


> ..... are they?


Yep! You have proved it a number of times.


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## Ronnie T

How bout on yourself?
Not so tough for you?
.


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## barryl

Ronnie T said:


> How bout on yourself?
> Not so tough for you?
> .


Me too.  That's why I needed a Savior, couldn't do it myself.


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## Big7

I tried to stay out of here.

This thing is still going after I told you the deal
2 million post' ago.

Be back to play with yall in a few..


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## barryl

More proof? Just more "Unbelief" of Gods word.


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