# non-violence



## ambush80 (Jun 19, 2016)

Do you think it's possible?



Is she a silly girl that doesn't understand reality?  What do you think they would make of this in the PF?


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## drippin' rock (Jun 20, 2016)

I don't know if she is silly. but she is not a good speaker.


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## ambush80 (Jun 20, 2016)

drippin' rock said:


> I don't know if she is silly. but she is not a good speaker.



What about her ideas? Do you think war with weapons can become obsolete?


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## StriperrHunterr (Jun 20, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> What about her ideas? Do you think war with weapons can become obsolete?



No. It's a naive pipe-dream and results in the extermination of anyone willing to try to put it into practice. 

George Carlin had a bit on "Give Peace a chance" and I'd post it if not for the language.


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## welderguy (Jun 20, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> What about her ideas? Do you think war with weapons can become obsolete?



Not until heaven.


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## drippin' rock (Jun 20, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> What about her ideas? Do you think war with weapons can become obsolete?



Not in our lifetime. Too much religious ignorance. I think the speaker is naive to the extreme.


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## drippin' rock (Jun 20, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> What about her ideas? Do you think war with weapons can become obsolete?



I tend to think humans on the whole are warlike. We are in an age where we are relatively comfortable, so we can float ideas of peace and disarmament. Let the crud hit the fan though, and we resort to our base instincts. If a catastrophe struck and left only a few million across the globe, peace might reign for awhile. But someone always wants power, someone always wants to impose their ideas on others, people will always envy.


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## drippin' rock (Jun 20, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Not until heaven.



In other words--- never.


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## ambush80 (Jun 20, 2016)

Clearly non-violence has done much work.  I don't know if it alone can defeat ISIS but they should be attacked on all fronts.  I find it hard, personally, to be dismissive of her argument.


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## stringmusic (Jun 20, 2016)

drippin' rock said:


> Not in our lifetime. Too much religious ignorance. I think the speaker is naive to the extreme.





drippin' rock said:


> I tend to think humans on the whole are warlike. We are in an age where we are relatively comfortable, so we can float ideas of peace and disarmament. Let the crud hit the fan though, and we resort to our base instincts. If a catastrophe struck and left only a few million across the globe, peace might reign for awhile. But someone always wants power, someone always wants to impose their ideas on others, people will always envy.


In one sentence you blame it on religious ignorance, in the next you blame it on evolution of humans.

Maybe violence is simply a necessity?


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## drippin' rock (Jun 20, 2016)

stringmusic said:


> In one sentence you blame it on religious ignorance, in the next you blame it on evolution of humans.
> 
> Maybe violence is simply a necessity?



Whatever.  Just commenting on what I see.


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## ambush80 (Jun 21, 2016)

stringmusic said:


> In one sentence you blame it on religious ignorance, in the next you blame it on evolution of humans.



It could be a combination of both to some degree .



stringmusic said:


> Maybe violence is simply a necessity?



Maybe religious ignorance and violence are necessities (driven by evolution).


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## gemcgrew (Jun 21, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> What about her ideas? Do you think war with weapons can become obsolete?


Not if you recognize the weapon of ideology.


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## ambush80 (Jun 21, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> Not if you recognize the weapon of ideology.



If the ideology is non-violence, I have a hard time calling it a weapon.  I suppose one could argue that love can be a weapon, Jesus himself was one of its proponents.  How did that go again......Plowshares into swords or swords into plowshares.......?  Oh yeah! Both.  Silly me.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 21, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> If the ideology is non-violence, I have a hard time calling it a weapon.


Then your hard time may be part of the issue. Unless you believe that her ideas are not meant to achieve anything.


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## ambush80 (Jun 21, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> Then your hard time may be part of the issue. Unless you believe that her ideas are not meant to achieve anything.



I concede.  By the second definition her ideas are absolutely weapons.   The more common use would be the first definition, but I don't want to get into word games with you.  I like you and I dislike word games.  

Can her idea become a powerful weapon?



_ weapon 
noun weap·on \Ëˆwe-pÉ™n\

Simple Definition of weapon

    : something (such as a gun, knife, club, or bomb) that is used for fighting or attacking someone or for defending yourself when someone is attacking you

 : something (such as a skill, idea, or tool) that is used to win a contest or achieve something
_


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## gemcgrew (Jun 21, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Can her idea become a powerful weapon?


Yes, in the right hands and the wrong hands. It appears simple enough. What do you think it would take to make it a way of life?


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## ambush80 (Jun 21, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> Yes, in the right hands and the wrong hands. It appears simple enough. What do you think it would take to make it a way of life?



Show people how cool it is to be cool.


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## welderguy (Jun 21, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Show people how cool it is to be cool.



With the exception of the radical crazy ones,don't you think for the most part Christians have been non-violence advocates?


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## gemcgrew (Jun 21, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Show people how cool it is to be cool.


Lead by example?


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## Madman (Aug 3, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> What about her ideas? Do you think war with weapons can become obsolete?



What motivates the "man in the tank"?  

Is an international "heart change" possible?

Without that there will always be a bigger driver with a bigger tank wanting more power, land, gold, etc., etc.


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## ambush80 (Aug 3, 2016)

Madman said:


> What motivates the "man in the tank"?
> 
> Is an international "heart change" possible?
> 
> Without that there will always be a bigger driver with a bigger tank wanting more power, land, gold, etc., etc.



Yeah.  It's tough trying to reign in man's selfishness.  One bright spot is that man can reason himself out of his nature.  He can make himself a mute or a celibate or a vegetarian.   The first step would be to agree on the common goal of harmony and peace.  The rest is just minor details.


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## ambush80 (Aug 3, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> Lead by example?



Absolutely.


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## Madman (Aug 3, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> The first step would be to agree on the common goal of harmony and peace.  The rest is just minor details.



unfortunately Nietzsche was right with his prediction after he proclaimed the death of God, he later stated that there would be more violence and death because of it.

the 20th century was the bloodiest in the history of man, even with more education, more enlightenment, we just kill each other faster.


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## ambush80 (Aug 3, 2016)

Madman said:


> unfortunately Nietzsche was right with his prediction after he proclaimed the death of God, he later stated that there would be more violence and death because of it.
> 
> the 20th century was the bloodiest in the history of man, even with more education, more enlightenment, we just kill each other faster.



Neitzsche...yuk.

Weapons got better.  Where's your hope?


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## Madman (Aug 5, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Neitzsche...yuk.
> 
> Weapons got better.  Where's your hope?



The machete is still used to slaughter thousands.

Since the "heart of man is deceitfully wicked" my hope is certainly not in him.


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## ambush80 (Aug 6, 2016)

Madman said:


> The machete is still used to slaughter thousands.
> 
> Since the "heart of man is deceitfully wicked" my hope is certainly not in him.



It's not just wicked. That in my opinion is one of the faults of Christian theology.   Empathy is hardwired, too.


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## obligated (Aug 6, 2016)

Being non violent didnt work out so well for the Jews in Nazi Germany.Cute girl but she hasnt got a clue on reality of the world.


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## bullethead (Aug 6, 2016)

The inability to defend ones self leads to extermination. There is a reason every nation on the planet has weapons. They are there to deterr every other nation from attacking them and they are there to defend when another nation does attack. Individuals are in the same situation from other individuals.
Nature is violent. Animals are violent. Humans are violent.


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## ambush80 (Aug 6, 2016)

bullethead said:


> The inability to defend ones self leads to extermination. There is a reason every nation on the planet has weapons. They are there to deterr every other nation from attacking them and they are there to defend when another nation does attack. Individuals are in the same situation from other individuals.
> Nature is violent. Animals are violent. Humans are violent.




How did the nonviolent movements she sites succeed?


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## bullethead (Aug 6, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> How did the nonviolent movements she sites succeed?



By Ugandan superstition .

But seriously, short term success. She didnt give updates to the current situations or the repercussions that happebed to the ones who disobeyed orders.  Violence happened.  Guaranteed.


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## JimD (Aug 6, 2016)

Everything in this physical world is comprised of dichotomies or opposites, Yin and Yang. There's up/down, hot/cold, evil/good, dark/light. If you believe in God, he is also Yin/Yang. He is a loving God, but also a warrior. In the OT most of God's favorite people were also warriors. If you cannot/will not defend loved ones, in my opinion you are worthless. There is evil in this world, whether you believe in a higher power or not. We will never make peace with any of the Muslim terrorist groups and the only answer is to kill them. They do not want peace nor do crazy people bent on killing. No amount of wishful thinking will change that.


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## welderguy (Aug 6, 2016)

Ambush,
I noticed from the other thread that you have a daughter that you love very much.What if you saw someone violently attacking her? What,in your opinion,would be the right thing for you to do in that situation?


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 6, 2016)

I have noticed God uses war in his master plan.Think about the destruction of Jerusalem. 
Lots of wars and battles in the Bible. Soldiers, swords, leaders of battle, fighting, conquests, forces, chariots, shields, armor, attacks, & enemies.


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## SGADawg (Aug 6, 2016)

I didn't watch the video, but did read the thread comments. Some believe violence is learned behavior, these people have never seen two toddlers go after the same toy.


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## ambush80 (Aug 7, 2016)

SGADawg said:


> I didn't watch the video, but did read the thread comments. Some believe violence is learned behavior, these people have never seen two toddlers go after the same toy.



Infants have been shown to participate in spontaneous acts of kindness and empathy towards puppets that seemed to need help and ignored puppets that acted cruelly.  Do you believe that?


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 7, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Infants have been shown to participate in spontaneous acts of kindness and empathy towards puppets that seemed to need help and ignored puppets that acted cruelly.  Do you believe that?



I do but considering that humans are animals, we are born bad and must learn to be good.
Maybe not bad as evil but bad as uncivilized. We must learn to be good. Not good as righteous but good as civilized.

We have to learn not to bite and hit each other. We have to learn not to spit. We have to learn to share and get along within a group such as a infant with his family or daycare.
We have to learn to get some of the animal out of us.


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## ambush80 (Aug 7, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> I do but considering that humans are animals, we are born bad and must learn to be good.
> Maybe not bad as evil but bad as uncivilized. We must learn to be good. Not good as righteous but good as civilized.
> 
> We have to learn not to bite and hit each other. We have to learn not to spit. We have to learn to share and get along within a group such as a infant with his family or daycare.
> We have to learn to get some of the animal out of us.



If you believe those things happen then you should conclude that we have hardwired behaviors for being "nice" to each other.  In my opinion, good parenting is stressing the good impulses and diminishing the bad ones.  I think that scripture is convincing you that people are only wicked.  It's a selling point.

I like our animal impulses, even the one's that I shouldn't act on.  They can easily be controlled to suit the purpose of peaceful coexistence (if that's your goal).  I have thoughts and inclinations that pass through my mind that definitely contradict my goal of peaceful coexistence.  Sometimes I have to shoo them away and sometimes I let them run their course.  Sometimes I pursue them as a thought experiment.  I just don't act on them.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 7, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> If you believe those things happen then you should conclude that we have hardwired behaviors for being "nice" to each other.  In my opinion, good parenting is stressing the good impulses and diminishing the bad ones.  I think that scripture is convincing you that people are only wicked.  It's a selling point.
> 
> I like our animal impulses, even the one's that I shouldn't act on.  They can easily be controlled to suit the purpose of peaceful coexistence (if that's your goal).  I have thoughts and inclinations that pass through my mind that definitely contradict my goal of peaceful coexistence.  Sometimes I have to shoo them away and sometimes I let them run their course.  Sometimes I pursue them as a thought experiment.  I just don't act on them.



I'm not looking at it as a religious thing but a science thing. I've heard of the research you mentioned. I do know that we possess both good and bad moral traits as do all animals. 
It takes years of training to overcome our natural instincts to fight for food, females, and territory. These fights are natural. We have to learn to share. We have to learn not to be selfish. We have to learn to be monogamous. Animals have to learn certain traits too in order to fit into their society.


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## ambush80 (Aug 7, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm not looking at it as a religious thing but a science thing. I've heard of the research you mentioned. I do know that we possess both good and bad moral traits as do all animals.
> It takes years of training to overcome our natural instincts to fight for food, females, and territory. These fights are natural. We have to learn to share. We have to learn not to be selfish. We have to learn to be monogamous. Animals have to learn certain traits too in order to fit into their society.



I disagree.  I think those impulses are hardwired. I try to praise the good qualities already inherent in my daughter and try to punish the bad behaviors.  I also try to show her how some of those "bad" behaviors can be used in a positive way by giving them context.  She can be jealous and covetous of someone who has achieved a great accomplishment and use that as motivation towards her own achievement but she should never project it onto that individual in such a way that it causes hate.  

Of all those impulses that you list I think that the monogamy one is the most interesting.


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## welderguy (Aug 7, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Ambush,
> I noticed from the other thread that you have a daughter that you love very much.What if you saw someone violently attacking her? What,in your opinion,would be the right thing for you to do in that situation?


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## ambush80 (Aug 7, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Ambush,
> I noticed from the other thread that you have a daughter that you love very much.What if you saw someone violently attacking her? What,in your opinion,would be the right thing for you to do in that situation?



It depends.   Is it another child?  A grown up?  That would determine the appropriate action.


This thread and her talk are about non violent movements.  Did you not understand that?


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## welderguy (Aug 7, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> It depends.   Is it another child?  A grown up?  That would determine the appropriate action.
> 
> 
> This thread and her talk are about non violent movements.  Did you not understand that?



I had pictured a grown up being violent with your daughter(I don't know her age).
How would you deal with that situation in a non-violent way that would be effective toward saving your daughter.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 7, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I had pictured a grown up being violent with your daughter(I don't know her age).
> How would you deal with that situation in a non-violent way that would be effective toward saving your daughter.



I wouldn't view self defense or the defense on another as violence.
Eventually you would have to offer forgiveness. Imagine how hard that would be?


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## ambush80 (Aug 8, 2016)

Guys,  this thread was intended to be about organized, nonviolent movements, the dynamics of which are somewhat related to but very different than what happens on individual levels.  Being compassionate to someone robbing me or even toward someone trying to hurt my daughter  is not the same thing as all of us gathered together, risking injury and/or arrest possibly even death in order to right some wrong.  It's incontrovertible that such movements have worked.


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## NCHillbilly (Aug 8, 2016)

I think it is more of the fantasyland that too many folks live in nowadays. Most people have hardwired traits of compassion, love, and empathy, true. But most people also have hardwired traits of greed, lust, and violence. They are all part of the whole that makes us human, and makes us a successful, durable species. People have been both helping and slaughtering each other since the days of the Australopithecus. They still are this morning. 

Non-violent movements might work in some specific cases for indefinite lengths of time. But, unless our DNA changes, non-violent people will never bring about massive change in the world. They will just be overrun by those who don't buy into their ideals. Unfortunately, those who beat their swords into plowshares will just wind up plowing for those who kept their swords. Human nature is what it is.

Plus, if we didn't kill each other off by the millions, the earth would be completely overrun before long, and we'll all starve to death.


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## ambush80 (Aug 8, 2016)

NCHillbilly said:


> I think it is more of the fantasyland that too many folks live in nowadays. Most people have hardwired traits of compassion, love, and empathy, true. But most people also have hardwired traits of greed, lust, and violence. They are all part of the whole that makes us human, and makes us a successful, durable species. People have been both helping and slaughtering each other since the days of the Australopithecus. They still are this morning.
> 
> Non-violent movements might work in some specific cases for indefinite lengths of time. But, unless our DNA changes, non-violent people will never bring about massive change in the world. They will just be overrun by those who don't buy into their ideals. Unfortunately, those who beat their swords into plowshares will just wind up plowing for those who kept their swords. Human nature is what it is.
> 
> Plus, if we didn't kill each other off by the millions, the earth would be completely overrun before long, and we'll all starve to death.



Clearly we can control our base urges.  Laws (secular as well as religious) in some sense were made for just that purpose.  Behavior can be modified through mental process.  It can be taught.  I do it with my kid every day.  I show her that minimizing the anti-social traits and maximizing the positive traits nets a better experience over all.   Do you think that it was useless for me to tell my daughter as I dropped her off at school, to try to have empathy today, try to be kind and compassionate to everybody and try to understand them? (She also knows how to watch her 6 and where the best place to kick an assailant is). If kindness is selected for it will eventually change our DNA.  

The problem of overpopulation can be solved by other means as opposed to the method that's currently in operation.   That's an interesting topic.  

Baby steps.  But nothing will happen if people remain defeatist.


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## drippin' rock (Aug 9, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Clearly we can control our base urges.  Laws (secular as well as religious) in some sense were made for just that purpose.  Behavior can be modified through mental process.  It can be taught.  I do it with my kid every day.  I show her that minimizing the anti-social traits and maximizing the positive traits nets a better experience over all.   Do you think that it was useless for me to tell my daughter as I dropped her off at school, to try to have empathy today, try to be kind and compassionate to everybody and try to understand them? (She also knows how to watch her 6 and where the best place to kick an assailant is). If kindness is selected for it will eventually change our DNA.
> 
> The problem of overpopulation can be solved by other means as opposed to the method that's currently in operation.   That's an interesting topic.
> 
> Baby steps.  But nothing will happen if people remain defeatist.



Of course it is good you teach your daughter the way you do.  I have a 15 year old that has entered the drama portion of her existence. I tell her the same thing pretty much.  She had a friend that turned mean and now they don't talk. I remind her that even though the other is being ugly, she should respond with kindness.  I also make sure she understands her actions and how they might help drive a wedge rather than draw together.  Maybe some of that will sink in by the time she is 30.


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## drippin' rock (Aug 9, 2016)

NCHillbilly said:


> I think it is more of the fantasyland that too many folks live in nowadays. Most people have hardwired traits of compassion, love, and empathy, true. But most people also have hardwired traits of greed, lust, and violence. They are all part of the whole that makes us human, and makes us a successful, durable species. People have been both helping and slaughtering each other since the days of the Australopithecus. They still are this morning.
> 
> Non-violent movements might work in some specific cases for indefinite lengths of time. But, unless our DNA changes, non-violent people will never bring about massive change in the world. They will just be overrun by those who don't buy into their ideals. Unfortunately, those who beat their swords into plowshares will just wind up plowing for those who kept their swords. Human nature is what it is.
> 
> Plus, if we didn't kill each other off by the millions, the earth would be completely overrun before long, and we'll all starve to death.



This is pretty much my attitude.

A good example of man's dual nature was Christmas 1944 at the Battle of the Bulge.


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## NCHillbilly (Aug 9, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Clearly we can control our base urges.  Laws (secular as well as religious) in some sense were made for just that purpose.  Behavior can be modified through mental process.  It can be taught.  I do it with my kid every day.  I show her that minimizing the anti-social traits and maximizing the positive traits nets a better experience over all.   Do you think that it was useless for me to tell my daughter as I dropped her off at school, to try to have empathy today, try to be kind and compassionate to everybody and try to understand them? (She also knows how to watch her 6 and where the best place to kick an assailant is). If kindness is selected for it will eventually change our DNA.
> 
> The problem of overpopulation can be solved by other means as opposed to the method that's currently in operation.   That's an interesting topic.
> 
> Baby steps.  But nothing will happen if people remain defeatist.



I don't doubt the ability of individuals to control their human nature. I do, however, very much doubt the ability of the whole species to do so. And there are always those who have no empathy of morals from the beginning. You gonna fight someone like Hitler or Lincoln with non-violent protest?


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## StriperrHunterr (Aug 9, 2016)

NCHillbilly said:


> I don't doubt the ability of individuals to control their human nature. I do, however, very much doubt the ability of the whole species to do so. And there are always those who have no empathy of morals from the beginning. You gonna fight someone like Hitler or Lincoln with non-violent protest?



Words to live by:


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## TTom (Aug 9, 2016)

I think she did a much better job with her idea later at this TED talk.

https://www.ted.com/talks/jamila_raqib_the_secret_to_effective_nonviolent_resistance


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## ambush80 (Aug 9, 2016)

TTom said:


> I think she did a much better job with her idea later at this TED talk.
> 
> https://www.ted.com/talks/jamila_raqib_the_secret_to_effective_nonviolent_resistance




Yes. That one is better, but the term "non-violent war " seems so weird.


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## TTom (Aug 10, 2016)

Yeah she really did further develop the idea between the first and second talk. I like the general idea of using non violence to achieve political gains, but I recognize that when they fail, politics by violence will often be the last resort taken to win.

I do think that it would be a powerful political arsenal to have at ones disposal. Developing the leadership talent along the lines of Generals, who know how to best deploy non violence in a coordinated effort would be something to pursue. Thus far I think we have seen maybe Captains and Majors level leaders. I would say even Gandhi wasn't really a "General", he lead a ton of people in non violence but he worked tactical levels rather than the overall strategy level.

Imagine someone trained and educated in the 198 Non Violent Actions listed by the Albert Einstein Intitute and how they affected the various economic and social goals that we try to effect in violent war. With the strategic and logistics level thinking of Omar Bradley. Knowing which tactics work in what situation and how they can be combined with other tactics to get multiplying effects. 

I think it's a good idea to move towards as a nation, because with traditional power becoming less centralized in the world and traditional bases of power becoming more accessible to the general public, winning the hearts and minds with these means might avoid or lessen the cost of world politics in blood and treasure.


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## ambush80 (Aug 10, 2016)

TTom said:


> Yeah she really did further develop the idea between the first and second talk. I like the general idea of using non violence to achieve political gains, but I recognize that when they fail, politics by violence will often be the last resort taken to win.
> 
> I do think that it would be a powerful political arsenal to have at ones disposal. Developing the leadership talent along the lines of Generals, who know how to best deploy non violence in a coordinated effort would be something to pursue. Thus far I think we have seen maybe Captains and Majors level leaders. I would say even Gandhi wasn't really a "General", he lead a ton of people in non violence but he worked tactical levels rather than the overall strategy level.
> 
> ...



Fantastic post.  It's absolutely worth pursuing.


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## Madman (Aug 24, 2016)

Mankind, it is very difficult to know that there should be and can be something better, but knowing that as a race we will never be able to achieve it.


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## Madman (Aug 24, 2016)

TTom said:


> With the strategic and logistics level thinking of Omar Bradley. Knowing which tactics work in what situation and how they can be combined with other tactics to get multiplying effects.



Good tactician, not a bad philosopher either.

"Our humanity is trapped by moral adolescents.
We have too many men of science, too few men of God. 
The world has achieved brilliance without 
wisdom and power without conscience." - Omar Bradley


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## ambush80 (Aug 29, 2016)

Madman said:


> Good tactician, not a bad philosopher either.
> 
> "Our humanity is trapped by moral adolescents.
> We have too many men of science, too few men of God.
> ...




I think his opinions are wrong.  I'd like to discuss them line by line.


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## 660griz (Aug 29, 2016)

This is as true in everyday life as it is in battle: we are given one life and the decision is ours whether to wait for circumstances to make up our mind, or whether to act, and in acting, to live. 

Omar N. Bradley 

Sometimes he got it right.


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