# Is a Timber rattler and a Canebrake the same thing?



## KentuckyHeadhunter

It seems to me I read somewhere that there was some difference in what people call a canebrake and what is a timber rattler.  What is the real answer?  It seems down here in GA they are always the same serpent.  Is there a difference?


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## farmer

There's a slight difference.  A canebrake is a little lighter and has an orange stripe down its back.  They're technically two different subspecies but I think some biologists consider them color phases of the same species.

They both taste like chicken, though


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## Mako22

farmer said:


> There's a slight difference.  A canebrake is a little lighter and has an orange stripe down its back.  They're technically two different subspecies but I think some biologists consider them color phases of the same species.
> 
> They both taste like chicken, though



I always thought they were the same thing but either way my club is loaded with the orange stripped ones.


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## NCHillbilly

Same species, different regional color phase. Up here in the mountains, Timbers are olive-yellow with a black tail, or sometimes almost black overall. Same difference as rat snakes-up here, they're all solid black with a white belly. Down in the Piedmont, they have the gray (oak snake) phase, and on the coast, the yellow striped phase, but still the same make and model of snake with a different paintjob.


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## dawg2

http://www.uga.edu/srelherp/snakes/crohor.htm

They are the exact same snake.  There is no biological difference between the two.  There can be coloration differences like many snakes found in different parts of the US.  "Canebrake" is a regional name used by us in GA.


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## Hooked On Quack

dawg2 said:


> http://www.uga.edu/srelherp/snakes/crohor.htm
> 
> They are the exact same snake.  There is no biological difference between the two.  There can be coloration differences like many snakes found in different parts of the US.  "Canebrake" is a regional name used by us in GA.





Ding ding!!  We have a winner!!


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## LibertyLady

No matter the coloration their real name is STEER CLEAR.


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## farmer

dawg2 said:


> They are the exact same snake.  There is no biological difference between the two.



Not exactly.  Timber rattlesnake is _Crotalus horridus horridus_.  Canebrake is _Crotalus horridus atricaudatus_.


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## flintdiver

There are also venom potency differences regionally on that snake. The ones from N. Florida, Osceola National Forest area have shown to have a more potent and different type of venom proteins. Needless to say, it would be bad all around to get a bite from any of them.


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## dawg2

farmer said:


> Not exactly.  Timber rattlesnake is _Crotalus horridus horridus_.  Canebrake is _Crotalus horridus atricaudatus_.



There is debate as to whether atricaudatus is a valid subspecies.  If it were, then they should also create subspecies for the northwestern and southwestern populations of "Timber" rattlers as well.  

I seriously doubt the debate will be settled on this thread  I would say the biggest proponents of validating a sub species for this snake would be the pet trade.  That would give them an extra variety of snakes to sell.  

Then again, how will a person really know they have a canebrake or a timber?  They won't.


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## dawg2

flintdiver said:


> There are also venom potency differences regionally on that snake. The ones from N. Florida, Osceola National Forest area have shown to have a more potent and different type of venom proteins. Needless to say, it would be bad all around to get a bite from any of them.



Do you have a source for that?


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## farmer

dawg2 said:


> I seriously doubt the debate will be settled on this thread.



True, and honestly it doesn't matter to me.  There would only be one name for it if I got bitten by either one.


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## SWAMPFOX

What flintdiver said. Some the biggest cane breaks I've ever seen was on the edges of the Big Gum Swamp in the Osceola National Forest near Lake City, Fl.

I stepped on a timber rattler under some leaves once in Screven County near Tuckahoe WMA and lost 5 years off my life. 

Like's been said here, they're both scary.


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## dawg2

farmer said:


> True, and honestly it doesn't matter to me.  There would only be one name for it if I got bitten by either one.



I will say they eat good and taste the same


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## dawg2

SWAMPFOX said:


> What flintdiver said. Some the biggest cane breaks I've ever seen was on the edges of the Big Gum Swamp in the Osceola National Forest near Lake City, Fl.
> 
> I stepped on a timber rattler under some leaves once in Screven County near Tuckahoe WMA and lost 5 years off my life.
> 
> Like's been said here, they're both scary.


I think that may have something to due with "horridus."  There have been fatalities from these snakes.  Not a good thing to get bitten by.


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## flintdiver

dawg2 said:


> Do you have a source for that?



Dawg here is where I have seen it. Below in quotes is where it is stated. I just had these books in my office the other day, the Coral snake info (pics) and varieties into South and Central America are insane. But in regards to the Timber/Canebrake here is what they say :

Norris R. 2004. Venom Poisoning in North American Reptiles. In Campbell JA, Lamar WW. 2004. The Venomous Reptiles of the Western Hemisphere. Comstock Publishing Associates, Ithaca and London. 870 pp. 1500 plates. ISBN 0-8014-4141-2. 

" There is considerable geographic and ontogenetic variation regarding the toxicity of the venom; something that can be said for many rattlesnake species. Four venom patterns have been described for this species: Type A is largely neurotoxic and is found in various parts of the southern range. Type B is hemorrhagic and proteolytic and is found consistently in the north and in parts of the southeast. Type A + B is found in areas where the aforementioned types apparently intergrade in southwestern Arkansas and northern Louisiana. Type C venom has none of the above components and is relatively weak.

The neurotoxic component of the Type A venom is referred to as canebrake toxin, and is a phospholipase A2. It is analogous to the neurotoxins found in the venoms of several other rattlesnake species and, when present, contributes significantly to the overall toxicity. Other components found in the venom include a small basic peptide that works as a myotoxin, a fibrinogen-clotting enzyme that can produce defibrination syndrome, and a bradykinin-releasing enzyme. "


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## KentuckyHeadhunter

wow, that's heavy.  Thanks flintdiver.  Guess it answers the bottom line of my question.  Sounds like they aren't EXACTLY the same snake.  I was never sure if it was like calling a Water Moccasin a Cottonmouth.  I enjoyed reading all the different answers here.


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## Miguel Cervantes

KentuckyHeadhunter said:


> It seems to me I read somewhere that there was some difference in what people call a canebrake and what is a timber rattler. What is the real answer? It seems down here in GA they are always the same serpent. Is there a difference?


 
Where's Germag? He'll straighten this all out.


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## arrendale8105

dawg2 said:


> I will say they eat good and taste the same




X2!!! i eat them all and they taste GREAT!!!

Don't knock it till you tried it is my motto


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## Vernon Holt

The Timber Rattler is found in North GA on the higher elevations.  The Canebrake of The Lower Coastal Plains of GA is found on the the lowlands, even wetlands.  He is not called Canebrake for nothing.

The Canebrake is a large snake.  I have killed them approaching 6 feet in length.  Conversely, the Timber is at best a medium sized snake with a three footer being a large one.  At any rate, there are clear differences in the size of adult snakes.

There are clear differences in coloration.  Both have chevron markings but the basic coloration are distinctively different.  The Timber has dark chevrons with the the dark yellowish background.

The Canebrake has dark chevrons with a pinkish background.

I spent 40 years of my life as a Forester in the lower Coastal Plains where the Canebrake is almost as plentiful as the Diamondback.  The remainder of my tenure has been spent in the Mountains where the Timber Rattlers reside.

I never doubt that there are similarities between the two.  Their differences are so great that I cannot accept that they are the same snake.  I trust my own knowledge and experience more than I trust Google.


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## yf22

Vernon Holt said:


> The Timber Rattler is found in North GA on the higher elevations.  The Canebrake of The Lower Coastal Plains of GA is found on the the lowlands, even wetlands.  He is not called Canebrake for nothing.
> 
> The Canebrake is a large snake.  I have killed them approaching 6 feet in length.  Conversely, the Timber is at best a medium sized snake with a three footer being a large one.  At any rate, there are clear differences in the size of adult snakes.
> 
> There are clear differences in coloration.  Both have chevron markings but the basic coloration are distinctively different.  The Timber has dark chevrons with the the dark yellowish background.
> 
> The Canebrake has dark chevrons with a pinkish background.
> 
> I spent 40 years of my life as a Forester in the lower Coastal Plains where the Canebrake is almost as plentiful as the Diamondback.  The remainder of my tenure has been spent in the Mountains where the Timber Rattlers reside.
> 
> I never doubt that there are similarities between the two.  Their differences are so great that I cannot accept that they are the same snake.  I trust my own knowledge and experience more than I trust Google.



Totallt wrong about the Timber Rattker. Do some more home work


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## Miguel Cervantes

Vernon Holt said:


> The Timber Rattler is found in North GA on the higher elevations. The Canebrake of The Lower Coastal Plains of GA is found on the the lowlands, even wetlands. He is not called Canebrake for nothing.
> 
> The Canebrake is a large snake. I have killed them approaching 6 feet in length. Conversely, the Timber is at best a medium sized snake with a three footer being a large one. At any rate, there are clear differences in the size of adult snakes.
> 
> There are clear differences in coloration. Both have chevron markings but the basic coloration are distinctively different. The Timber has dark chevrons with the the dark yellowish background.
> 
> The Canebrake has dark chevrons with a pinkish background.
> 
> I spent 40 years of my life as a Forester in the lower Coastal Plains where the Canebrake is almost as plentiful as the Diamondback. The remainder of my tenure has been spent in the Mountains where the Timber Rattlers reside.
> 
> I never doubt that there are similarities between the two. Their differences are so great that I cannot accept that they are the same snake. I trust my own knowledge and experience more than I trust Google.


 
The Herp's at UGA might disagree in part with that, but in essence I agree with you.
http://www.uga.edu/srelherp/snakes/crohor.htm


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## Vernon Holt

*Timber Rattler and Canbrake Rattler*



yf22 said:


> Totallt wrong about the Timber Rattker. Do some more home work


 
Thank you my friend for the rather abrupt chastisement.  I would be more readily convinced of my wrongness if you would kindly outline in some detail as to where and how I am so wrong.

And further, when replying, it would help your credibility if you would avail yourself of a good dictionary, and then utilize it.


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## tad1

Got me a new pair of snake boots this year,  sooo much deadfall and debris on this new hunting lease I've never been more paranoid bout them.  
Swampfox, tell  more about your encounter plz.
        Thanks for the post, 
                        J.T.


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## NCHillbilly

Vernon, the only thing I would respectfully disagree at all with in your post is the statement about the small size of timber rattlers, and a three-footer being a large one. A three-footer would be an unusually small one for an adult here. I have seen a lot of rattlers over the years, including a couple of timbers easily approaching six feet and bigger in girth than my wrist here in western NC. Not as many big ones as there used to be, but rattlers average about 4' in my area. It's uncommon to see one much over 4', or under 4'. My great-grandmother killed one that was six and quite a bit of change, and had an enormous girth. There is a photo of it with my 6'2" grandpa holding it over his head, and it's just shy of dragging the ground. Not a holding-it -out-in front of him pic, either. One thing I have noticed is that I have never run up on an aggressive timber rattler. They're pretty laid-back, never had one act like it wanted to do anything but crawl away from me. We see less rattlers every year here, and they're about gone in some places. I think the woods would be a much less interesting place without rattlesnakes in them, I wish people would quit killing every one they see.


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## Miguel Cervantes

NCHillbilly said:


> Vernon, the only thing I would respectfully disagree at all with in your post is the statement about the small size of timber rattlers, and a three-footer being a large one. A three-footer would be an unusually small one for an adult here. I have seen a lot of rattlers over the years, including a couple of timbers easily approaching six feet and bigger in girth than my wrist here in western NC. Not as many big ones as there used to be, but rattlers average about 4' in my area. It's uncommon to see one much over 4', or under 4'. My great-grandmother killed one that was six and quite a bit of change, and had an enormous girth. There is a photo of it with my 6'2" grandpa holding it over his head, and it's just shy of dragging the ground. Not a holding-it -out-in front of him pic, either. *One thing I have noticed is that I have never run up on an aggressive timber rattler. They're pretty laid-back, never had one act like it wanted to do anything but crawl away from me. We see less rattlers every year here, and they're about gone in some places. I think the woods would be a much less interesting place without rattlesnakes in them, I wish people would quit killing every one they see*.


 
We can agree on that one. The seem extremely docile for a venomous snake.


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## Vernon Holt

*Timber Rattler vs Canebrake Rattler*



NCHillbilly said:


> Vernon, the only thing I would respectfully disagree at all with in your post is the statement about the small size of timber rattlers, and a three-footer being a large one. A three-footer would be an unusually small one for an adult here. I have seen a lot of rattlers over the years, including a couple of timbers easily approaching six feet and bigger in girth than my wrist here in western NC. Not as many big ones as there used to be, but rattlers average about 4' in my area. It's uncommon to see one much over 4', or under 4'. My great-grandmother killed one that was six and quite a bit of change, and had an enormous girth. There is a photo of it with my 6'2" grandpa holding it over his head, and it's just shy of dragging the ground. Not a holding-it -out-in front of him pic, either. One thing I have noticed is that I have never run up on an aggressive timber rattler. They're pretty laid-back, never had one act like it wanted to do anything but crawl away from me. We see less rattlers every year here, and they're about gone in some places. I think the woods would be a much less interesting place without rattlesnakes in them, I wish people would quit killing every one they see.


 

NChillbilly: Thank you for your interesting response!!

I see no need to get bogged down in a discussion of size, since size is a relative matter. We hopefully could agree that the Eastern Diamondback is a large snake. I'm told that the record Diamondback was taken in FL and was over 8 feet in length. Even a 6 footer is an awsome snake.

The Canebrake of the lowlands of SE GA fits neatly (at least in my mind) into the general category of being a large snake. I have measured one that was 5' and 10" long and 10" in circumference.

The Timber Rattler which is native to the mountains of N. GA in no way measures up to the size of the Canebrakes which I have observed. It may have something to do with a shortage of rodents on which they can prey.

I was attempting to point out in my original post that there are sufficient differences in the two snakes to warrant declaring the Canebrake to be a sub-species of the Timber Rattler.

As food for thought, there are upward to 20 different sub-species of the Virginia Whitetail Deer in the US. The most noticeable difference in the sub-species relates to size, slight coloration differences, and physiographical differences. For example, the Key Deer of the FL Keys appears in every way to be identical to the VA Whitetail. The distinct difference has to do with their very small size.

I simply believe that it is a stretch to declare that the two snakes to be of the same species. I am well aware that this counters with the determination of Herpetologists and Taxonomists.  (for the benefit of Cervantes)

I see conflict in the way Whitetail Deer are classified and the way these two distinctly different snakes are classified.


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## dtala

Alabama Timber rattler 5' long, bit me turkey hunting in '86. I have seen them to 6'.

  troy


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## tato creek shoalie

I dont wont any run ins with either of em


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## NCHillbilly

Vernon Holt said:


> NChillbilly: Thank you for your interesting response!!
> 
> I see no need to get bogged down in a discussion of size, since size is a relative matter. We hopefully could agree that the Eastern Diamondback is a large snake. I'm told that the record Diamondback was taken in FL and was over 8 feet in length. Even a 6 footer is an awsome snake.
> 
> The Canebrake of the lowlands of SE GA fits neatly (at least in my mind) into the general category of being a large snake. I have measured one that was 5' and 10" long and 10" in circumference.
> 
> The Timber Rattler which is native to the mountains of N. GA in no way measures up to the size of the Canebrakes which I have observed. It may have something to do with a shortage of rodents on which they can prey.
> 
> I was attempting to point out in my original post that there are sufficient differences in the two snakes to warrant declaring the Canebrake to be a sub-species of the Timber Rattler.
> 
> As food for thought, there are upward to 20 different sub-species of the Virginia Whitetail Deer in the US. The most noticeable difference in the sub-species relates to size, slight coloration differences, and physiographical differences. For example, the Key Deer of the FL Keys appears in every way to be identical to the VA Whitetail. The distinct difference has to do with their very small size.
> 
> I simply believe that it is a stretch to declare that the two snakes to be of the same species. I am well aware that this counters with the determination of Herpetologists and Taxonomists.  (for the benefit of Cervantes)
> 
> I see conflict in the way Whitetail Deer are classified and the way these two distinctly different snakes are classified.



An honest 6' snake of any species is a pretty impressive critter, especially if it's venomous.


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## caughtinarut

Why is it that we see more canebreak or timber around than we do diamond. I have only seen one killed on the farm over the past 15 years comapred to many. many canebreaks or timbers


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## Al33

Question:
I could be wrong but it seems I recall watching a program about canebrakes and timbers a few years back and the narrator said that one of them could climb trees while the other could/would not. Has anyone heard or read the same?


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## Vernon Holt

caughtinarut: It may have something (or everything) to do with where you live.  The topography in the area of your farm has much to do with the kind of snakes you could expect to be found there.

Do you live close by in GA??


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## whitetailfreak

Cohutta WMA Timber


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## Vernon Holt

*Timber Rattler and Canebrake Rattler*



Al33 said:


> Question:
> I could be wrong but it seems I recall watching a program about canebrakes and timbers a few years back and the narrator said that one of them could climb trees while the other could/would not. Has anyone heard or read the same?


 
Dear Friend Al: I for one have never seen any rattler climb a tree.
However, I have seen a Canebrake fall out of a tall pine tree.

I heard a limb whisk overhead, with a sound rather like a squirrel jumping from one limb to another. I looked up and saw a squirming snake struggling to gain his balance on a pine limb.

He was unsuccessful in regaining his balance, so he fell acquardly 25 feet to the ground some 15 feet from me. It was about a 3 foot long Canebrake.

Why the snake would leave the relative safety of the ground and climb high up in a tall GA pine is beyond me.


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## Nicodemus

Vernon Holt said:


> Dear Friend Al: I for one have never seen any rattler climb a tree.
> However, I have seen a Canebrake fall out of a tall pine tree.
> 
> I heard a limb whisk overhead, with a sound rather like a squirrel jumping from one limb to another. I looked up and saw a squirming snake struggling to gain his balance on a pine limb.
> 
> He was unsuccessful in regaining his balance, so he fell acquardly 25 feet to the ground some 15 feet from me. It was about a 3 foot long Canebrake.
> 
> Why the snake would leave the relative safety of the ground and climb high up in a tall GA pine is beyond me.





Mr. Vernon, Only once, have I seen a rattlesnake off the ground. It was a small canebrake rattler, maybe 20 inches long, and it was about 3 feet off the ground in some gallberrys. That one caught me totally off guard.


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## Vernon Holt

*Rattlers*



Nicodemus said:


> Mr. Vernon, Only once, have I seen a rattlesnake off the ground. It was a small canebrake rattler, maybe 20 inches long, and it was about 3 feet off the ground in some gallberrys. That one caught me totally off guard.


 
Nic:  That one was just testing his wings and trying to get his nerve up.


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## Al33

Thanks Mr Vernon!! Trusting my memory is iffy at best but it does seem it was the canebrake that could climb. As I recall the documentary took place in NE Florida.

If one of the two species in question can climb while the other does not that would definitely give weight to supporting a different species.


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## Al33

OK, I had to go to Google. Here is just one link I found noting the climbing abilities of the canebrake. Look in the "Natural History" paragraph.

http://www.gophertortoisecouncil.org/dox/canebrake.pdf


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## chehawknapper

I found a small, <2', canebrake about 4' of the ground in southern bayberry during the spring when there were lots of birdnests scattered through the area. I have also found many well over 5' in S. Ga.


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## 242outdoors

i was feeding the dogs one day and felt something near my head in a low hanging tree....looked over and two small timber rattlers were sitting on a branch looking at me. only time i have ever seen rattlers off the ground.


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## fishfryer

I've seen them swimming on two occasions,but never tree climbing.A rat snake in a plum tree got my undivided attention one time as a kid.


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## Ridge Walker

> Dear Friend Al: I for one have never seen any rattler climb a tree.
> However, I have seen a Canebrake fall out of a tall pine tree.
> 
> I heard a limb whisk overhead, with a sound rather like a squirrel jumping from one limb to another. I looked up and saw a squirming snake struggling to gain his balance on a pine limb.
> 
> He was unsuccessful in regaining his balance, so he fell acquardly 25 feet to the ground some 15 feet from me. It was about a 3 foot long Canebrake.
> 
> Why the snake would leave the relative safety of the ground and climb high up in a tall GA pine is beyond me.



One possibility is that a hawk dropped it.

Also, size was discussed earlier in the thread. Male timbers get bigger than females...so the very biggest ones are usually males.

RW


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## Vernon Holt

*Snakes*



Ridge Walker said:


> One possibility is that a hawk dropped it. RW


 
True.  Another possibility is that the rattler climbed the tree.

The hawk is rendered unlikely since there was no hawk on the scene.  The snake clearly fell from the tree.

I examined the snake carefully.  It was clear that there were no  injuries nor talon marks evident on the snake.


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## Ridge Walker

Vernon Holt said:


> True.  Another possibility is that the rattler climbed the tree.
> 
> The hawk is rendered unlikely since there was no hawk on the scene.  The snake clearly fell from the tree.
> 
> I examined the snake carefully.  It was clear that there were no  injuries nor talon marks evident on the snake.



That's definitely possible, I've personally seen a Timber up about five feet or so in some shrubs. Just thinking of some other possible explanations.

RW


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## Melvin4730

http://drkhan-online.com/Timber_Rattlesnake.php


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## fireretriever

They are both the exact same snake if I see them. DEAD!!!!!! if it aint got feet and has fangs it has got to die. I stay in the woods and don't really look for them but if one gets my attention its dead. I don't care what anyone says a venomous snake is a dead snake if I see it. So don't put one in your pocket or let it wrap around your neck cause you might be dead too.


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## sramagesr

I agree with the steer clear


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## bnew17

timber rattler i killed in december! almost stepped on it! he ate good too


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## seaweaver

I was on a mini bike outside of Tarboro sc winding around roots in a swamp rut when I stopped to look at the last root I went around. A monster canebrake. I have seen them swimming in large open rivers from Island to Island and we once pasted one swimming to Bloody Pt beach on Dufuski. We alerted a fella bulding a sand castle and he chopped the head off the second he came ashore. It was a popular beach back then. We got the meat.
cw


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## arkie1

ft stewart has a healthy population of rattlers in the woods you see alot on the road sunning


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## rednekkhikkchikk

A surveyor who had an office beside ours years ago killed a timber rattler and somewhere I have a photo of him holding the snake up so that it's head was off the ground next to my sister.  It was clearly longer than she is tall.  She is around 5'2" and was wearing shoes with 1 1/2" shoes that  day.   I have seen exactly 4 of them myself; they were populous in the area where I lived previously (at the top of a small-ish mountain in NW Ga next to a large tract of WMA property/forest)   They were all pretty big snakes, but none was 6' long.


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