# Jonah and the Whale.



## Ronnie T (Sep 15, 2011)

Do you believe Jonah was actually swallowed by a large fish, and live in the fishes stomach for 3 days.

There's lots of lessons from Jonah.

Probably as many as from Job.


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## JB0704 (Sep 15, 2011)

Oh no Ronnie.  Now I am going to be in trouble again, but.....

No.  I don't believe he was swallowed by a whale.

Interesting, my wife's Bible study is currently going through this story.


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## formula1 (Sep 15, 2011)

*Re:*

Yes, indeed!  Two reasons the lead me to that:

Jonah is mentioned in other places in scripture:
1) 2 Kings 14:25
2) The Gospels By Jesus - Matthew 12:38-41, Luke 11:30-32

That's good enough for me to add validity to its truth!


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## JB0704 (Sep 15, 2011)

formula1 said:


> Yes, indeed!  Two reasons the lead me to that:
> 
> Jonah is mentioned in other places in scripture:
> 1) 2 Kings 14:25
> ...



And my counter point is similar to that of Job.  This could have been literature they were all taught.  They grew up in a theocracy, and they were taught Jewish literature, history and law.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 15, 2011)

JB...just to clarify...you don't believe Jonah existed at all (i.e. the whole thing is just a metaphor including the characters)?  Or just you don't believe that the real guy, Jonah, was swallowed by a whale?


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## JB0704 (Sep 15, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> JB...just to clarify...you don't believe Jonah existed at all (i.e. the whole thing is just a metaphor including the characters)?  Or just you don't believe that the real guy, Jonah, was swallowed by a whale?



Not sure.  I will read Job tonight and have a better perspective tomorrow, but my current thoughts are that this story is different than Job because you don't have the "battle" of God and Satan, there are not factual contradictions (such as Job's age) and it is not written as poetry.  There are aspects which are not physically possible, though.

I believe it has a moral of following God.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 15, 2011)

formula1 said:


> Yes, indeed!  Two reasons the lead me to that:
> 
> Jonah is mentioned in other places in scripture:
> 1) 2 Kings 14:25
> ...



I agree.  Swallowed..3 days in the whale...Ninevah saved.

No reason to doubt what is in scripture.


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## JB0704 (Sep 15, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> I agree.  Swallowed..3 days in the whale...Ninevah saved.
> 
> No reason to doubt what is in scripture.



Well, a human could not physically live inside of a whale for three days, the digestive process would kill him, plus the whole lack of oxygen thing.......

I think the actual translation is "flesh eating sea monster" (I heard that on the history channel).  Does anybody on here have better insight into what the actual translation of "whale" is?


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## Huntinfool (Sep 15, 2011)

> There are aspects which are not physically possible, though.



...unless you allow for the possibility of the supernatural intervention of an almighty God....right?

I'm poking at you.  I know you don't really think that God is constrained by the physical or the natural...right?

Oops....nevermind.  I just saw the reply to RJ.


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## stringmusic (Sep 15, 2011)

Yes I believe Jonah live in a whale for three days.


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## JB0704 (Sep 15, 2011)

I don't think God is constrained, we are.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 15, 2011)

It takes some faith to believe it, but yep I believe ol Jonah was eaten by a large fish and later spit back up.

I thought God causing the green plant to grow one day and killing it the very next day was a nice touch by God.
Kinda teaching Jonah some stuff.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 15, 2011)

Could he sustain a man in the belly of a whale for three days?


Did he raise people from the dead?


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## stringmusic (Sep 15, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Well, a human could not physically live inside of a whale for three days, the digestive process would kill him, plus the whole lack of oxygen thing.......
> 
> I think the actual translation is "flesh eating sea monster" (I heard that on the history channel).  Does anybody on here have better insight into what the actual translation of "whale" is?



Those goobers on the history channel(ancient aliens) said Jonah was picked up by a submarine with aliens in it.


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## formula1 (Sep 15, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> And my counter point is similar to that of Job.  This could have been literature they were all taught.  They grew up in a theocracy, and they were taught Jewish literature, history and law.



Jesus quoted it as Truth, unless of course you don't believe Jesus!  Then you have a larger issue!


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## Huntinfool (Sep 15, 2011)

formula...the response is going to be that Jesus was quoting Jewish literature...not talking about a real person.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 15, 2011)

Oh....BTW.....yes, I have no reason to believe it didn't actually happen.  I believe it's a real story about a real man who was really swallowed for three days and spit back out.


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## JB0704 (Sep 15, 2011)

I don't think the parables were true stories.........that doesn't make Jesus a liar.  Jesus also quoted Greek Proverbs.

I am sure God could have sustained him, but I don't see this type of miraculous intervention today.  I don't think the validity is lost whether it is literature or history.

I need to read the story again so I can have an intelligent discussion.  About to hit the road, so I may have to pick it up tomorrow.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 15, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Well, a human could not physically live inside of a whale for three days, the digestive process would kill him, plus the whole lack of oxygen thing.......



Really?

Pinocchio did and he was alright.


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## JB0704 (Sep 15, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> formula...the response is going to be that Jesus was quoting Jewish literature...not talking about a real person.



I can respond for myself HF.  I appreciate it though.


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## formula1 (Sep 15, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I don't think the parables were true stories.........that doesn't make Jesus a liar.  Jesus also quoted Greek Proverbs.
> 
> I am sure God could have sustained him, but I don't see this type of miraculous intervention today.  I don't think the validity is lost whether it is literature or history.
> 
> I need to read the story again so I can have an intelligent discussion.  About to hit the road, so I may have to pick it up tomorrow.



No part of  Matt 12 or Luke 11 was written in parable form, just so you know.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 15, 2011)

RJ, RJ, RJ....

Pinocchio didn't become a REAL boy until AFTER he got out of the whale and got home man!  Come on man!!!!

Wood survives in a whale just fine.


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## stringmusic (Sep 15, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Really?
> 
> Pinocchio did and he was alright.


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## JB0704 (Sep 15, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Those goobers on the history channel(ancient aliens) said Jonah was picked up by a submarine with aliens in it.



Now that is a little more believeable


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## Huntinfool (Sep 15, 2011)

> I can respond for myself HF. I appreciate it though.



Just speeding things along man.


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## JB0704 (Sep 15, 2011)

I hate always being the "bad Christian."  One day, I am going to start a thread that I know you will all agree to, just so I can "fit in" for once.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 15, 2011)

You're not the bad christian my bro...

Maybe just moving along in sactification?

Admit it though....you're a glutton.


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## JB0704 (Sep 15, 2011)

formula1 said:


> No part of  Matt 12 or Luke 11 was written in parable form, just so you know.



Right, but he did use parables.  I don't think there has to be a transition according to Chapter.  The gospels consist of the body of work.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 15, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I hate always being the "bad Christian."  One day, I am going to start a thread that I know you will all agree to, just so I can "fit in" for once.





If we all emptied out our closets on here, we could all be accused of being "bad Christians."

Don't settle for fitting in.  It's boring.  In the words of Michael W. Smith..

Go west young man...when the evil's going east.


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## StriperAddict (Sep 15, 2011)

Not a problem with the account as it stands.  There's so many valuable things to glean throughout the story.  One of my favs is the neat message about the guys in the boat getting free from the storm by tossing 'ol Jonah overboard.  The phrase "Get on with it!!" comes to mind!


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 15, 2011)

Wonder what brought this thread on?   lol

I believe he was dead in the fish.   No reason for God to keep him alive; no less a miracle to have resurrected him.

Have a good one guys.   I'll jump back in here tomorrow with my thoughts and rebuttal.

keep in my brothers....THIS IS NOT A BIG ISSUE!!!!  DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU BELIEVE HE WAS ALIVE OR DEAD IN THE FISH.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 15, 2011)

I tend to believe that Jonas swallowed by the whale for three days is not unlike Jesus being tempted in the desert.

Now this begs the question was the desert real? Well maybe, but spiritually does not temptation come from a spiritual desert or a barren ( where there is minimal life) as opposed to the lush valleys were God calls us to?

If I recall the reason Jonas was swallowed by the whale is because he was "debating" to do as God would have him do or not do it. He was holding back on his "gift" as prophet.

The whale for me is a symbol of the pull of society, culture and the world which swallows us. If we are to tread the eye of the needle in order to serve others in Christ or as per God's will, then we are to sort out the above.

Also even God's chosen people spit out their prophets--by sawing them in halves and quarters, plucking their eyes out and the like.

The story of Jonas for me is the story of a misfit, a man ill at ease. He did not like himself and the whale did not like him. He looked alot on the dark side, was a negative kind of fellow. But God liked him in spite of all his shortcomings--enough to call him as a prophet to a people far away from his comfort zone. 

Jonas wined that he did not what to be a prophet and then wined that he was a very successful prophet. Jonas was a winer.

For the ancients the sea, with its monsters and depths, rips and currents, its unknowns, its killing powers to which many were lost, was an easy and rich source of symbols. ( For example, for the greeks dolphins carried the souls of the death to their reward.)

For me that Jonas was swallowed by a big fish or whale is unlikely, but not impossible. I take no lesson from God for the  possible fact that the whale was a real fish or mammal. I am greatly informed by God that the whale was other.

But hey, I have been wrong in the past, and expect to be in the future.


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## formula1 (Sep 15, 2011)

*Re:*



JB0704 said:


> I hate always being the "bad Christian."  One day, I am going to start a thread that I know you will all agree to, just so I can "fit in" for once.



Bad, no.  Your belief in Christ is enough to be a part of the in-crowd.  Since we all must still need sanctification (since we are still on the earth), you fit in just fine with the rest of us. God Bless!


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## Sargent (Sep 15, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Really?
> 
> Pinocchio did and he was alright.



He was wooden when he was in the whale, silly.

He didn't become human until afterwards. 

Duh!


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## vowell462 (Sep 15, 2011)

No. I do not believe that he lived in a whale or fish for three days.


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## stringmusic (Sep 15, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> No. I do not believe that he lived in a whale or fish for three days.



Whada bouta submarine?


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## 7mm REM MAG (Sep 15, 2011)

How can you pick and choose what parts of the Bible you believe are true and not true?  Either you believe the Bible is infallable Word of God, or you don't.  If you don't believe some of it, then what do you base your faith on?


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## vowell462 (Sep 15, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Whada bouta submarine?



Believe it or not, I missed that episode. That show does make me go hmmmmmm though.


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## 7mm REM MAG (Sep 15, 2011)

Do you believe that Shadrach, Meshach and Abendigo walled about in a fiery furnace and did not die (or even smell like smoke)?  This is physically and humanly impossible but the glory of God saved them.  No different than the miricle of Jonah living in the belly of a whale or great fish for three days.  With God, NOTHING is impossible.


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## vowell462 (Sep 15, 2011)

7mm REM MAG said:


> How can you pick and choose what parts of the Bible you believe are true and not true?  Either you believe the Bible is infallable Word of God, or you don't.  If you don't believe some of it, then what do you base your faith on?



I dont pick and choose. I dont believe the bible is an infallable word of god. Nor do I believe The Koran is.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 15, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> Nor do I believe The Koran is.





If you're going to capitalize Koran, you probably should be consistent and capitalize Bible.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 15, 2011)

7mm REM MAG said:


> How can you pick and choose what parts of the Bible you believe are true and not true?  Either you believe the Bible is infallable Word of God, or you don't.  If you don't believe some of it, then what do you base your faith on?



 From the gospels and every word they attribute coming out of the mouth of Jesus. The bible is all true.


And...

God speaks first in one way,
and then in another, but no one notices.

Job 33:14

I wonder if the whale is not bait to invite us in the word...


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## vowell462 (Sep 15, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> If you're going to capitalize Koran, you probably should be consistent and capitalize Bible.



Sorry if that was offensive RJ. I reckon I should have put The Holy Bible. What I was saying is that I have a hard time believing any of it.


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## groundhawg (Sep 15, 2011)

7mm REM MAG said:


> Do you believe that Shadrach, Meshach and Abendigo walled about in a fiery furnace and did not die (or even smell like smoke)?  This is physically and humanly impossible but the glory of God saved them.  No different than the miricle of Jonah living in the belly of a whale or great fish for three days.  With God, NOTHING is impossible.



Nothing is impossible with God.  Amen!

Also Daniel in the lions' den; Lazarus risen from the grave, Paul being bitten by the snake; Matthew 16:7-10, Mark 8:1-21 (the loaves and fishes) and many other miracles.


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## 1gr8bldr (Sep 15, 2011)

Why is it that we want to believe that Jonah "lived" in the belly of a fish? It's not possible. Makes the story seem like a lie. But let's look at it from the proper angle; Jonah was swallowed. He died. He was dead. When he was spit out, he came back to life. He was resurrected. Jesus gave "the sign of Jonah" as an example of a miracle. It was pointing to his fate of the tomb. That he would die and be resurrected. It has no connection with anything if he is not dead


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## hummdaddy (Sep 15, 2011)

i think it was a uso , an unidentified submerged object or ufo


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## Ronnie T (Sep 15, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Why is it that we want to believe that Jonah "lived" in the belly of a fish? It's not possible. Makes the story seem like a lie. But let's look at it from the proper angle; Jonah was swallowed. He died. He was dead. When he was spit out, he came back to life. He was resurrected. Jesus gave "the sign of Jonah" as an example of a miracle. It was pointing to his fate of the tomb. That he would die and be resurrected. It has no connection with anything if he is not dead



Here's the problem for you.....  Jonah prayed to God during the time he was in the whale's stomach.
Chapter 2 says:  "from inside the fish Jonah prayed".


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## Jeffriesw (Sep 15, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> I agree.  Swallowed..3 days in the whale...Ninevah saved.
> 
> No reason to doubt what is in scripture.



X's 2


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## gordon 2 (Sep 15, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Why is it that we want to believe that Jonah "lived" in the belly of a fish? It's not possible. Makes the story seem like a lie. But let's look at it from the proper angle; Jonah was swallowed. He died. He was dead. When he was spit out, he came back to life. He was resurrected. Jesus gave "the sign of Jonah" as an example of a miracle. It was pointing to his fate of the tomb. That he would die and be resurrected. It has no connection with anything if he is not dead



Maybe the connection is what happened when Jesus was dead? Jesus visited hades or shoal. Is there a connection with hades/shoal and the ocean?


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## JB0704 (Sep 15, 2011)

7mm REM MAG said:


> How can you pick and choose what parts of the Bible you believe are true and not true?  Either you believe the Bible is infallable Word of God, or you don't.  If you don't believe some of it, then what do you base your faith on?



Its got nothing to do with believing.  It has everything to do with interpretation.  Jonah being a "story" does not incriminate the validity of it.  Same with Job.  The parables were not "true stories."  Does that mean the whole Bible is fake?

I am still reading it, I will have better thoughts tomorrow.


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## JFS (Sep 15, 2011)

7mm REM MAG said:


> Either you believe the Bible is infallable Word of God, or you don't.



As I read this, I can't come up with a single valid reason to believe it is.  It can't be self authenticating, that would be circular.  Any writing could claim that.  Second, it's not even clear to me it makes that claim for itself, nor could it really as it is more of an anthology than anything.  Jesus never said "here's a bible, study up." And if he did, there would be no way to verify that as it would just be a circular reference again if your source is the bible.  So the bible has even less putative authority than the koran or the book of mormon. It's mind boggling to me anyone think jewish tribal folklore shouldn't be scrutized as you would say greek mythology.  Both contain historic characters, but at least most people have the good sense to realize the greek stories aren't literal.   I can't see that the biblical stories are any different.  Both contain valuable lessons, but no need to suspend reason when reading either.


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## 1gr8bldr (Sep 15, 2011)

Many people get many things from the book of Jonah. This is what I see; Many people think that the standard of which people are judged is themselves. Jonah only wanted "grace" to be extended to people like himself. None of us are worthy of the grace we have received. Religion causes us to be judgemantal but true Christianity says how can I judge someone when I did not deserve grace myself.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 15, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Why is it that we want to believe that Jonah "lived" in the belly of a fish? It's not possible. Makes the story seem like a lie. But let's look at it from the proper angle; Jonah was swallowed. He died. He was dead. When he was spit out, he came back to life. He was resurrected. Jesus gave "the sign of Jonah" as an example of a miracle. It was pointing to his fate of the tomb. That he would die and be resurrected. It has no connection with anything if he is not dead



x2     spitting him out on the beach and then reviving him would be no less a miracle.   No reason for God to keep Jonah alive in the belly...




Ronnie T said:


> Here's the problem for you.....  Jonah prayed to God during the time he was in the whale's stomach.
> Chapter 2 says:  "from inside the fish Jonah prayed".



I agree with Gordon.   We know Jesus was dead in the tomb, but He was also working and talking, etc.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 15, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> x2     spitting him out on the beach and then reviving him would be no less a miracle.   No reason for God to keep Jonah alive in the belly...
> 
> I agree with Gordon.   We know Jesus was dead in the tomb, but He was also working and talking, etc.



I'd never thought of it that way.
Could be.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 15, 2011)

It just occurred to me that Jonah asked God for a sign! He sat down and waited to see what was going to happen to Ninivah. Jonah was waiting for a miracle or a sign from God and that that sign would be the destruction of Niniva! But God's sign was salvation!!!!!!!!!!!! and Jonah got p.o.

Now about what Jesus did in his three days from the time of his crusifiction to his resurection, Peter says basically conserning what Jesus did at this time what Jonah says of himself in his three days.

Both visited shoal. Jonah says, " from the belly of Sheol I cried." He is calling the whale Sheol. "Salvation comes from Yahweh" He says, when he  himself is saved. But he forgets this when the Ninivah's are saved.

Jonah wanted a sign. For him perhaps he though, if Ninavah falls...Jonah will be a great prophet and that sign will be Ninavah's destruction. 

Now perhaps the Jews were looking for a similar sign from the Savior. The restoration of Isreal would mean that, like the destruction of Ninivah, Rome and Greek would be destroyed or sent packing.

In both cases the sign was salvation. Ninivah was saved. Jews and gentile were saved, the rightious in shoal were saved. The price was for both Jesus and Jonah three days in shoal. But also Jonah had, like Job and like us issues with pride. Jesus did not.With Jesus all was in His father.


I went down into the countries underneath the earth, to the peoples of the past. Jonah.

------------------

1 Peter 3:18–20 

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through *water*.


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## JB0704 (Sep 15, 2011)

I just finished reading it again (lots of interruptions).  Good stuff.  I will get on tomorrow and discuss.  Interesting for sure.


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## Throwback (Sep 15, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Could he sustain a man in the belly of a whale for three days?
> 
> 
> Did he raise people from the dead?




stop that. 

T


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## Throwback (Sep 15, 2011)

7mm REM MAG said:


> How can you pick and choose what parts of the Bible you believe are true and not true?  Either you believe the Bible is infallable Word of God, or you don't.  If you don't believe some of it, then what do you base your faith on?



they base it on the flavor of the week. whatever suits their needs at that given moment. 


T


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## mtnwoman (Sep 15, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> If you're going to capitalize Koran, you probably should be consistent and capitalize Bible.



Word!


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## mtnwoman (Sep 15, 2011)

I have no reason to doubt Jonah was in the belly of a whale for 3 days. I won't pick it apart, I just believe that nothing is impossible with God.

Anyway Jonah went to ninevah against his own will...how he got there exactly may not be the important part.
I also think it sounds like Jesus praying in the garden, take this from me  Father, don't make me do it. 

As far as parables go, I think Jesus usually doesn't name names, He says, there was this guy that....
I know I use examples of things when I'm trying to explain something, not necessarily all true stories, just examples of. Besides a lot of bible scholars, way wiser than me, have said they were parables. I still take it as a learning lesson, just like I do David and Goliath....I slay giants every day, we all do....sometimes it takes me longer than a day, but eventually I can do all things thru Christ who strengthens me to overcome and win the battle and slay the giants that come against me.

If I pray for God's will to be done, He's gonna get me where He wants me to be even if I have to ride in a whale, and whether I want to go or not....IF i'm praying for His will to be done.


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## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

Throwback said:


> they base it on the flavor of the week. whatever suits their needs at that given moment.




Um, no.


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## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

Before I throw out my thoughts on Jonah, I would like to know if you guys who believe it is a historical account would think it diminished the validity if it was not a real story.


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## vowell462 (Sep 16, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Word!



Thanks for the grammer lessons you guys. Didnt know it had to be so specific. If you go back just a few post after the one he made, you"ll see where I apologized and corrected. Love English majors......


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 16, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Before I throw out my thoughts on Jonah, I would like to know if you guys who believe it is a historical account would think it diminished the validity if it was not a real story.




Personally, if I thought it wasn't true, I'd consider it 'diminished'.   The Bible is about the supernatural...the miraculous.   We can't be Christians if we don't believe in the miraculous.    "..and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead"    If God raised Jesus from the dead, there's no reason to doubt that He would raise Jonah or keep him alive in the fish.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 16, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Before I throw out my thoughts on Jonah, I would like to know if you guys who believe it is a historical account would think it diminished the validity if it was not a real story.



Maybe, but chances are they can be at peace with your views...so share... Don't keep them in suspense.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 16, 2011)

If it wasn't real, then it does nothing to prove God's power.  It's just a story about God's power.

There are lots of good lessons in the Chronicals of Narnia.  There are lots of good lessons in the Lord of the Rings books.  Lots of good lessons about God and humanity and the relationships between them.  But....they....are...no...true.

God's power is quite literally demonstrated in sustaining Jonah in that fish....in causing the fish to swallow him and causing the fish to swim exactly where he needed it to go...in causing the fish to spit him out onto the shore of exactly where he had told him to go in the first place.  His power is literally demonstrated in causing that weed to grow and wither and the wind to blow.

If those things did not happen, then it's simply a nice story with nice "lessons"...but it does nothing to confirm the power and authority of God.  It's simply a made up story that offers lessons about him.

Now...you're going to say "Well, that's exactly what the parables were and did" and I agree with you.  But there are a couple of issues that I have with that.  First....when parables are told, there are never (at least I can't think of any) any specific names or specific cities mentioned.  They are vague in detail because the lesson is what is important.  In other words, "There once was a man who lived in a certain city..."  "A Nobleman went into a far country...", etc.  That's how parables are typically told in the NT.  

The storys of Job and Jonah are very specific in their detail.  They are both mentioned elsewhere in other books in context as if they are recognized as real people.  The cities mentioned are real cities and the details of the stories are very specific.  If this were parable, we would have simply heard that "A prophet was told to go to a certain city...and didn't".

Does it diminish its validity if it's not real?  I'm not sure how to answer that.  It certainly doesn't diminish the value of the lessons taught.  But it does diminish the power of the story.  If it's not real, then God didn't actually cause all of those miraculous things to happen...and that does diminish the power of the story IMO.


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## formula1 (Sep 16, 2011)

If the works of God are not Truth, then what hope can you rest on in Jesus Christ that He is Truth.

Truth just is....

It is Truth. The path you go down denies the Power of God, which is the same power that raised Christ from the dead. If you are truly a believer in Christ, don't go down that path, I plead with you!


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## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> If those things did not happen, then it's simply a nice story with nice "lessons"...but it does nothing to confirm the power and authority of God.  It's simply a made up story that offers lessons about him.



Which is also good enough, I suppose.

My problem with the argument for confirming the power of God is that creation is confirmation enough (Romans 1:20).  So God does not need to do these things to prove a point.

I have thoughts on the moral of the story, but first lets talk about the characters:

1. God in Jonah is one of mercy and grace.  He gives Ninevah a much different treatment than other cities in the OT.
2. Jonah gets upset when God fails to destroy the city, so in the end, his pride remains intact.  He never "comes to peace" with God's decision.  It's kind-of like God says "oh well, Jonah" at the end of Chapter 4.

In contrast with Job:
Jonah's pride remaining, even after his fishing expedition, is in contrast to the brokeness of Job.  God, sparing the city for Grace' sake, is different than God sapring Job's "justified" adult children and servants.  So, on first glance the two stories do not "line up."


Right now, I believe Jonah and the city of Ninevah are historical characters.  The fish, I am pretty convinced, is representative of our desires in contrast to God's will.  Submission to such is what sustains us.  

Additionally, I am pretty certain the story implies Jonah was dead, and cried out to God from beyond.  I don't know if it is translation problem, but the prayer is in past tense.  Jonah, it seems, believes that he knows better than God, and almost "sinks" everyone around him by doing his own thing.  By submitting to God's will, he is "redeemed" and saves a city (which is in contrast to destroying those close to him).

So, I think the moral is not one of God's power, but one of following God's commands and will.


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## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

formula1 said:


> The path you go down denies the Power of God.



Not at all.  I believe God can be the creator of the universe, and Jonah could be symbolic at the same time.



formula1 said:


> which is the same power that raised Christ from the dead. If you are truly a believer in Christ, don't go down that path, I plead with you!



F1, I believe there is a huge difference between believing one event which has first hand witnesses and a resulting movement started by folks willing to die based on what they saw and believing a story which sounds like many other ancient "tales."  Jonah had to be passed word-of-mouth, and none of the sailors gave a testimony to what they saw.

That is the biggest difference between the OT and the NT.  I don't think the OT has to be literal in every situation.  If it is, then we get tied into logical knots.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 16, 2011)

Oh....also....in every case of a parable...somebody is telling the story.  Niether in Job nor here do you find a story teller.  The story stands on its own...as if it were real.


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## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Oh....also....in every case of a parable...somebody is telling the story.  Niether in Job nor here do you find a story teller.  The story stands on its own...as if it were real.




So, Jonah is the author of Jonah?


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## Huntinfool (Sep 16, 2011)

In every parable, the teller is identified prior to the telling of the story...Jonah starts with "Now the word of the Lord came to Jonah" (or something like that).  It just jumps right into the story.

Not a proof.  Just an interesting difference between these stories that most believe are real and parables.  

What's your rebuttal regarding the consistent lack of details in the stories that we all agree actually are parables?


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## gordon 2 (Sep 16, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Personally, if I thought it wasn't true, I'd consider it 'diminished'.   The Bible is about the supernatural...the miraculous.   We can't be Christians if we don't believe in the miraculous.    "..and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead"    If God raised Jesus from the dead, there's no reason to doubt that He would raise Jonah or keep him alive in the fish.



This is very interesting that you would consider it diminished. And I understand where you are coming from: God can do what He wants, when He wants, how he wants and so on.

To me it is just the opposite. If the whale is a symbolic element in Jonah and that the account of Jonah is not totally historical in fact, I am forced to seek out the miraculous elsewhere in the account. For example the miraculous in Jonah for me is that Ninivah repented and was saved distruction! This is what is intimate about man and God: God's grace and salvation offerd to all.

Now their is another benefit for me in reading Jonah with the whale as a symbol. In my compassion and love for the people of cultures other than mine I can put the account of Jonah in comparrison to their spiritual accounts. Where I have found my Lord in Jonah there I will find Him at work in the hearts of other people.

Take the spiritual narratives of the Native American Nations for example. In some of their spiritual narratives listeners( and today readers) find out when, where and why, under which circomsatances men were good and how for their being good blessings came to all the people.

In many of these accounts it is said that these good men prayed to their creator and had dialogue with Him. He spoke to them, and they to Him.

Now in these stories often there are facts that all know are meant to move things along:Such as giant squirrels weighting as much a two men.

Now if it was not for Jonah's whale taken as a symbol many would stop and dismiss Native American spirituality as idolotry...because giant squirrels do not glorify "our" God. But for taking  the whale in Jonah as symbol I am able to see the love of God active the accounts and lives of all peoples since creation. 

This love is not in the miraculous of whales that can swallow people and transport them for three days and land them safe on shore, not is it in giant squirrels that raid the larders of poor people.

 God's miracles  are not that ten tousand yrs ago squirrels are reduced in size, from 400lb squirrels to the size they are today.  It is that ten tousand yrs ago God listened to the prayers of a "good" man, as he does today,  and for that one man...a whole people was blessed--for His devine love.

Now if I was a minister to people of native american culture, for what I have just said, I would have no issues with calling Jesus the son of the Creator....and  with all God's people we would be on the same page.


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## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

Good thoughts G2.  My favorite part of Jonah is God's grace and mercy being so apparent.


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## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> What's your rebuttal regarding the consistent lack of details in the stories that we all agree actually are parables?



No rebuttal.  Every ancient story has details in it.  Read the Illiad, or any ancient greek story.

I don't think Jonah is a full blown parable.  I think it is an explanation of something in a tense and setting that folks would understand.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 16, 2011)

> For example the miraculous in Jonah for me is that Ninivah repented and was saved distruction! This is what is intimate about man and God: God's grace and salvation offerd to all.



But it wasn't a miracle....it didn't happen.  If it's only parable, it does indeed show his grace and mercy and affection for humanity.  But I don't see how it can be considered miraculous.




> It is that ten tousand yrs ago God listened to the prayers of a "good" man, as he does today, and for that one man...a whole people was blessed--for His devine love.



I'm confused by this.  Can you explain this again for me?


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## Huntinfool (Sep 16, 2011)

> No rebuttal. Every ancient story has details in it. Read the Illiad, or any ancient greek story.




....except, of course, for the parables in the Bible.


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## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> But it wasn't a miracle....it didn't happen.  If it's only parable, it does indeed show his grace and mercy and affection for humanity.  But I don't see how it can be considered miraculous.



.....you had to see this coming ten miles away...........

....but, according to your perspective.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 16, 2011)

The issue of the whale being real or not real; Is this not an issue about ourselves and in this issue that the word shines a light on us and our natures. 

But if we relax our guards the account of Jonah shines a light on God.

I think Jonah is an account to perfection our knowledge of God, and in this instance, not to perfection our selves.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 16, 2011)

> .....you had to see this coming ten miles away...........
> 
> ....but, according to your perspective.




Yes...the macro you built.  I know.  


Ok....how do you see it as a miracle if it didn't happen?


Try this on.


I just jumped off the top of my building without a parachute and landed safely on the ground!  It's a miracle!  God saved me!

...good lesson that God loves me enough to save me.  Didn't happen.  No miracle actually occurred.


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## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

HF, or, how 'bout this:  I was born.

That is a miracle considering the non-creative character of matter.  But I am here.  I breathe. 

I don't need to be saved from a jump off of building to know what the people of Ninevah learned.....God is good.


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## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> ....except, of course, for the parables in the Bible.



1. The prodigal son is pretty detailed.
2.  You surely don't think the literary technique of every author in the Bible is the same.  Read Genesis, then read Corinthians.  Two very different personalities come through in the writing.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 16, 2011)

> HF, or, how 'bout this: I was born.
> 
> That is a miracle considering the non-creative character of matter. But I am here. I breathe.
> 
> I don't need to be saved from a jump off of building to know what the people of Ninevah learned.....God is good.



But you were born...that makes no sense.  You were physically born.  The miracle of birth is indeed a miracle of creation.

I did not actually jump off my roof.  It is not a miracle if it doesn't happen.

The people of Ninevah didn't learn anything...it didn't happen.  You and I can learn something from the story if it's just a story.  But the people of that city most certainly learned nothing from something that didn't happen.

You guys are jumping between fact and fiction and you don't even realize it.


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## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> But you were born...that makes no sense.  You were physically born.  The miracle of birth is indeed a miracle of creation.
> 
> I did not actually jump off my roof.  It is not a miracle if it doesn't happen.
> 
> ...



My creation is a miracle was my point.  I don't need a miraculous salvation from a fall to prove God is powerful.

The people in the story learned a lesson.  For future reference, do I have to specifically state that which should be obvious.

I know exactly what I am saying and doing.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 16, 2011)

> 2. You surely don't think the literary technique of every author in the Bible is the same. Read Genesis, then read Corinthians. Two very different personalities come through in the writing.



This is going to be long....indulge me if you will.  I want you to read these two passages, written by the same author in the same book and note the detail in one verses the other.



> On one occasion, while the crowd was pressing in on him to hear the word of God, he was standing by the lake of Gennesaret, and he saw two boats by the lake, but the fishermen had gone out of them and were washing their nets. Getting into one of the boats, which was Simon's, he asked him to put out a little from the land. And he sat down and taught the people from the boat. And when he had finished speaking, he said to Simon, “Put out into the deep and let down your nets for a catch.” And Simon answered, “Master, we toiled all night and took nothing! But at your word I will let down the nets.” And when they had done this, they enclosed a large number of fish, and their nets were breaking. They signaled to their partners in the other boat to come and help them. And they came and filled both the boats, so that they began to sink. But when Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, “Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord.” For he and all who were with him were astonished at the catch of fish that they had taken, and so also were James and John, sons of Zebedee, who were partners with Simon. And Jesus said to Simon, “Do not be afraid; from now on you will be catching men.”



Note the specific details about where they were, who was there, etc.....now show me any similar detail in the prodigal son below.  There was a man, in a city with a son...that's all we know.




> And he said, “There was a man who had two sons. And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of property that is coming to me.’ And he divided his property between them. Not many days later, the younger son gathered all he had and took a journey into a far country, and there he squandered his property in reckless living. And when he had spent everything, a severe famine arose in that country, and he began to be in need. So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him into his fields to feed pigs.
> 
> And he was longing to be fed with the pods that the pigs ate, and no one gave him anything.
> “But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father's hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger! I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants.”’ And he arose and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet. And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate. For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.
> “Now his older son was in the field, and as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. And he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant. And he said to him, ‘Your brother has come, and your father has killed the fattened calf, because he has received him back safe and sound.’ But he was angry and refused to go in. His father came out and entreated him, but he answered his father, ‘Look, these many years I have served you, and I never disobeyed your command, yet you never gave me a young goat, that I might celebrate with my friends. But when this son of yours came, who has devoured your property with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him!’ And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours. It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found.’”




Tell me....why would you read these two passages.  One contains a miracle and one does not.  Why would you read the one with a miracle in it and say "well that is a true story and it's real"...and then you read the other and say "well that one...that's a parable and didn't actually happen"?


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## rjcruiser (Sep 16, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I don't think Jonah is a full blown parable.  I think it is an explanation of something in a tense and setting that folks would understand.



Then why is it located in the prophets within the Bible?  It isn't the poetry, it isn't the law, it is a minor prophet.  The style and location help determine that.


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## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Then why is it located in the prophets within the Bible?  It isn't the poetry, it isn't the law, it is a minor prophet.  The style and location help determine that.



Which was determined by whoever assembled the Bible (it was not God).  The converse of this question is: why is Job with the poetry?


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## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Tell me....why would you read these two passages.  One contains a miracle and one does not.  Why would you read the one with a miracle in it and say "well that is a true story and it's real"...and then you read the other and say "well that one...that's a parable and didn't actually happen"?



One recalls a sermon, the other recalls an event.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 16, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Which was determined by whoever assembled the Bible (it was not God).  The converse of this question is: why is Job with the poetry?



Really?  That is were we disagree then.  God did assemble the Bible through his people and by his direction.

The funny thing is no religion that is based on the God of Abraham disputes what books are included in the OT and the sections they are in.  Only the NT is disputed and the Dueterocanonical books are disputed.  The OT...not so much.

Wonder why that is?


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## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

RJ, I will say this, the story of Jonah, and God's nature in Jonah, lines up with God's nature in the NT more than God in Job.

I was reading Jonah again this morning, did I miss it, does God ever specifically say he is going to destroy the city?


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## Huntinfool (Sep 16, 2011)

> One recalls a sermon, the other recalls an event.



You didn't answer the question I asked.

You accept one as real and one as "story".....why?


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## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Really?  That is were we disagree then.  God did assemble the Bible through his people and by his direction.



You are correct on the NT.  I believe the OT is a collection of Jewish law, history, and teachings.  I am not an OT scholar by any stretch.  But who decided which history and minor prophets made it into the Jewish cannon?

I do know the NT was assembled some time after Christ.


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## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> You didn't answer the question I asked.
> 
> You accept one as real and one as "story".....why?



Because one says "here's what I saw."

The other says "let's look at it this way."

Not literally, of course.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 16, 2011)

Huh????


Does Jonah say "let's look at it this way" somewhere?  


It starts with pretty much "This is what happened..."



I know...I know.  You're not contradicting yourself.  I'm just not seeing it I guess.


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## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

Okay, maybe I have to be specific.

The first passage is a firsthand account of an event.  The second is a firsthand account of another person's sermon where the speaker is giving a message in terms folks will understand.

I am absolutely confused as to why you do not see the difference.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 16, 2011)

You don't have to be specific....just consistent.

I do see the difference.  You cannot seem to articulate how you take your explanation of the second and translate that to Job or Jonah being "story" rather than firsthand account of an event.

If your determination that the Prodigal Son is a parable is because you hear the speaker tell you it's a story....then what is your explanation for Job and Jonah.  

Earlier your explanation was pretty much "well, it's just too far fetched to be real".  It must be a story.  In other words, I determine it's story based on it's contents.  It couldn't happen...so it must be a story.  Which is it?  Is it literary style or is it content?


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## rjcruiser (Sep 16, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> RJ, I will say this, the story of Jonah, and God's nature in Jonah, lines up with God's nature in the NT more than God in Job.
> 
> I was reading Jonah again this morning, did I miss it, does God ever specifically say he is going to destroy the city?



Not sure on your question...I need to re-read it myself.  However, I'm don't think God's nature has changed at all.  I see it the same in both the NT and the OT.  



JB0704 said:


> You are correct on the NT.  I believe the OT is a collection of Jewish law, history, and teachings.  I am not an OT scholar by any stretch.  But who decided which history and minor prophets made it into the Jewish cannon?
> 
> I do know the NT was assembled some time after Christ.



The Scribes and Jewish leaders.  I don't think it was ever up for discussion.  It has been since the early days.  The law was preserved as well as the other books.  

I'm no OT scholar either, but I do know that the scribes took great pride in carefully copying the books...counting the words, the letters etc etc to ensure no mistakes were made.

That is where archeological finds have proven so useful.  Showing that the early renditions are the same as those that came much later...proving that God has maintained the integrity of his Word through time.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 16, 2011)

If scripture is God’s revelation of Himself to His people, limited though it must be due to the nature of man, the focus is not Jonah or Job or even the events of the story, and the importance of historicity disappears.

Providence – The unceasing activity of the Creator whereby, in overflowing bounty and goodwill, He upholds His creatures in ordered existence, guides and governs all events, circumstances, and free acts of angels an men, an directs everything to its appointed goal, for His own glory.  J.I. Packer


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## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> You don't have to be specific....just consistent.
> 
> I do see the difference.  You cannot seem to articulate how you take your explanation of the second and translate that to Job or Jonah being "story" rather than firsthand account of an event.
> 
> ...



I never said it was the speaker saying it was a story.  It is obvious to the reader it is a story.  Do you think the prodigal son was a true story?  Do you think the authors of the OT were exactly consistent with their literature with the authors of the NT?

I am being consistent.  Job is written as poetry, so, a logical conclusion should be that it must be poetry, and we can at least discount the conversations as being actual, yes?  Unless you believe conversations were held in poetic style.  Jonah is in line with many other fables.  You have a hero doing battle with a God, and in the end, the God wins.  It is a good story, and with many, many lessons.  None of which are lost if the dude was not literally swallowed by the whale.

I use the parables to help you understand that even you do not believe every word is actual truth.  Some parts of the Bible are stories with a meaning. 

You seem to think the moral of every story in the Bible has to be "God is powerful."  I tend to think the morals are more articulate than that, and that God need not prove it in every passage.


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## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> That is where archeological finds have proven so useful.  Showing that the early renditions are the same as those that came much later...proving that God has maintained the integrity of his Word through time.



.....well, refer to the now banned threads on Biblical translations.  The integrity of the word, or message, has been maintained.  For me, that does not imply that the conversations in Job are relayed exactly as they happened.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 16, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Good thoughts G2.  My favorite part of Jonah is God's grace and mercy being so apparent.



For me, the greatest lesson is God's corrective action in the lives of his servants who don't abide by His will.
God was relentless in His pursuit of Jonah and He demanded that Jonah learn from all of it...... even so far as God providing a shade one day, but destroying it the next.

This really isn't the story of Jonah and the whale.  It's a historical record of God's demands upon Nineveh.
Jonah is God's prophet.  This isn't the only thing Jonah ever did for God.  I think 2 Kings contains other.

If this isn't true, why not doubt God sending fire from heaven for another prophet?  It's amazing but it's true.
It's one of the "wow" stories of dealing with God.


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## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Earlier your explanation was pretty much "well, it's just too far fetched to be real".  It must be a story.



I cannot begin to imagine how narrow your view of my comments must be.  You have your conclusion before you ask the question, and overlook everything that happens in between.

The whale doesn't have to be real for the story to make sense or be applicable.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 16, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> .....well, refer to the now banned threads on Biblical translations.  The integrity of the word, or message, has been maintained.  For me, that does not imply that the conversations in Job are relayed exactly as they happened.



And that can be something we disagree on, but it shows that its position within the minor prophets has not changed over time...with it at one time being a parable or a poetic book and the style changing it over to more of a historical/prophetic account.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 16, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> The whale doesn't have to be real for the story to make sense or be applicable.



So, I guess the question is, what is more believable/miraculous?

The fact that a whole city of 100s of thousands of people turn to God?  Or a giant fish swallowed Jonah and spit him up on a beach?

If you're going to believe one part, why not all?  

And that is where we probably disagree the most.  You can't just pick and choose what is truth and what isn't.  Once you start doing that, you can create your own gospel, your own Bible and your own religion.


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## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> And that can be something we disagree on, but it shows that its position within the minor prophets has not changed over time...with it at one time being a parable or a poetic book and the style changing it over to more of a historical/prophetic account.



I think Job was always a poem, if I implied it changed from history to poem, or vice versa, I misspoke.

Jonah, on the other hand, has some historical validity to it, the city of Ninevah being a primary factor.  So I don't think it is the same as Job.  I think the whale part is how the story of the prophet is conveyed to the reader, to make the "biggest bang," for lack of a better term.  

Refere back to some of G2's comments on various cultures using supernatural aspects of the natural world to convey a story.  "The moral" is in no way lost by recognizing a literary tool used by the author.


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## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> You can't just pick and choose what is truth and what isn't.  Once you start doing that, you can create your own gospel, your own Bible and your own religion.



I'm not.  I am reading and looking for the message of the author.  I am convinced that certain stories were never intended to be taken literally.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 16, 2011)

> I never said it was the speaker saying it was a story.





> The second is a firsthand account of another person's sermon where the speaker is giving a message in terms folks will understand.








> It is obvious to the reader it is a story.



HOW is it obvious?  That's what I'm asking you.  If it's obvious, then there are criteria that you are using that make it obvious.  What are those criteria.  Yes...the Prodigal Son is a story.  How do you know that?  I've told you how I know it....you can't seem to articulate how you make the determination with any consistency.  That is my point.  It's arbitrary for you.  In one case it's because there is the context of the "speaker".  In another it's because it just doesn't seem possible that some of the events happened (which blows my mind for a variety of reasons).







> Some parts of the Bible are stories with a meaning.



You're right.  They are called parables and they are easy to spot because of the lack of specific detail and the fact that the teller of the story is noted in the passage.

I don't require that "God is powerful" be the message at all times.  You asked how the story was diminished if it wasn't true....I answered you.


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## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

HF, did somebody have to tell you "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" was not true before you doubted it's historical accuracy?


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## Huntinfool (Sep 16, 2011)

> If this isn't true, why not doubt God sending fire from heaven for another prophet? It's amazing but it's true.
> It's one of the "wow" stories of dealing with God.



Exactly right!

Or what about Moses throwing down his cane and it turns into a snake?  What about a bush that burns without burning?  What about rivers turning to blood?



What about a human dieing on a cross and rising alive again on the third day?


Your reason for believing it to be a story cannot be "well...it's just not physically possible".  If it is, then you are required to discount much of the contents of the Bible as story...and some of them are foundational to your faith.


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## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> I don't require that "God is powerful" be the message at all times.  You asked how the story was diminished if it wasn't true....I answered you.



....because you think the point of the story is God's power.  Jsut like you thought the point of Job is God's control of the universe (power).


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## Huntinfool (Sep 16, 2011)

> HF, did somebody have to tell you "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" was not true before you doubted it's historical accuracy?




You are a master of the "Five D's"


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## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Exactly right!
> 
> Or what about Moses throwing down his cane and it turns into a snake?  What about a bush that burns without burning?  What about rivers turning to blood?
> 
> ...



The death, burial, and resurrection is the foundation of my faith.  You do not dictate the terms of what I can and cannot believe.  I am consistently amazed at the fact that you view your perspective as true as gospel.  Otherwise, you would not be telling me what I can and cannot believe.


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## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> You are a master of the "Five D's"



That was not a dodge.  Answer the question.  Does the authro identify it as fiction within the text?


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## Huntinfool (Sep 16, 2011)

> ....because you think the point of the story is God's power. Jsut like you thought the point of Job is God's control of the universe (power).



No...because IF you see it as a story only, then the important lesson (one of many in Jonah) that God is all-powerful is diminished.


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## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> No...because IF you see it as a story only, then the important lesson (one of many in Jonah) that God is all-powerful is diminished.



And I think that perspective puts blinders on the reader to the greater message of grace and redemption.

Let me ask you this, what are the eternal implications of who is right and wrong in this debate?


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## Huntinfool (Sep 16, 2011)

> The death, burial, and resurrection is the foundation of my faith.



But it's not physically possible.  Why do you believe it happened?  You don't believe Jonah for that reason.  



> There are aspects which are not physically possible, though.




Why do you believe Jesus rose from the dead?  Is it that consistency is not important?


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## Huntinfool (Sep 16, 2011)

> Let me ask you this, what are the eternal implications of who is right and wrong in this debate?



None....is that the only reason to discuss scripture?


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## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> But it's not physically possible.  Why do you believe it happened?  You don't believe Jonah for that reason.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have already answered that, go back and read.  Please remove yourself from the pedestal you built and try to have a pleasant conversation here.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> None....is that the only reason to discuss scripture?



Then please stop trying to question my faith, as is quite implicit in your previous comment.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 16, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I'm not.  I am reading and looking for the message of the author.  I am convinced that certain stories were never intended to be taken literally.



I agree that certain stories were never intended to be taken literally as well.

However, the context, the style and the linquistics of Jonah prove that it isn't a story and should be taken literally.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 16, 2011)

C'mon guys...simmer down.  It's Friday...and I'm heading home early  We should all be in happy moods.


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## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> However, the context, the style and the linquistics of Jonah prove that it isn't a story and should be taken literally.



I paid way too little attention in "OT Survey" in college to be able to properly debate that one with you.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> C'mon guys...simmer down.  It's Friday...and I'm heading home early  We should all be in happy moods.



Yea, I might actually get to go hunting a bit this weekend.  

Good point. My fault.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> For me, the greatest lesson is God's corrective action in the lives of his servants who don't abide by His will.
> God was relentless in His pursuit of Jonah and He demanded that Jonah learn from all of it...... even so far as God providing a shade one day, but destroying it the next.
> 
> This really isn't the story of Jonah and the whale.  It's a historical record of God's demands upon Nineveh.
> ...



Ronnie, you had to know where this was going, but, it was my fault for taking the bait.

If I believe God can create the universe, I also believe many things are possible.  However, that does not mean they are factual.  I just see a different perspective and meaning within the text.

As always, I appreciate your thoughts.  I do not see it like you do, but that does not imply that I think less of your perspective.


----------



## gordon 2 (Sep 16, 2011)

Hey this is off topic. Ronnie , I got this idea about a church sign.

On the way back from Walmart, ( I needed a lamp shade for a customer's moose hoof lamp.) this came to me right out of the blue.

For your church's street sign. 

Was Jonah's Whale Real? 
Bury your axes in it, here.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 16, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Ronnie, you had to know where this was going, but, it was my fault for taking the bait.
> 
> If I believe God can create the universe, I also believe many things are possible.  However, that does not mean they are factual.  I just see a different perspective and meaning within the text.
> 
> As always, I appreciate your thoughts.  I do not see it like you do, but that does not imply that I think less of your perspective.



Agreeing with me isn't the criteria.
Sometimes it might not even by wise.


----------



## Ronnie T (Sep 16, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Hey this is off topic. Ronnie , I got this idea about a church sign.
> 
> On the way back from Walmart, ( I needed a lamp shade for a customer's moose hoof lamp.) this came to me right out of the blue.
> 
> ...



You might have a future in church marquee's.
I'm also glad you have access to Walmart way up there.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 16, 2011)

> Then please stop trying to question my faith, as is quite implicit in your previous comment.



I'm not questioning your faith.  I'm pushing you.  We are being sharpened.  So that we...

 always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you...


What I'm asking is a legit question.  I'm not saying that you don't believe Jesus died and rose.  I'm asking you why you can dismiss Jonah as being only a story because it's "not physically possible" and yet you have no problem believing that Jesus rose from the dead...which is also not physically possible.

Does that make sense?  Am I being too obtuse on this?  I just don't see how you can apply that logic to Jonah and not to the account of the resurrection of Christ (or any of the miracles in the Bible for that matter).

So that, when someone asks you "Hey, JB, what do you think about Jonah...was it real or wasn't it?" you have an answer that won't give them pause to say "Well, that's contradictory."

I promise you, if you take that statement over to the AAA forum, they are going to point it out.  It's not because I want you to somehow look bad, or stupid or something.  I'm trying to point out the possible flaw in the reasoning so that you can, again,  always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you...


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## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> I'm not questioning your faith.  I'm pushing you.  We are being sharpened.  So that we...
> 
> always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you...



I will give you credit for your sarcasm.  Well done, sir.  (And I mean this sincerely).


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## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

But, I was prepared, and did answer, you just didn't like what I had to say.

HA!!  No last word for you


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## Huntinfool (Sep 16, 2011)

I amended my post to add a few things.  If you'll go read them I think you'll understand where I'm coming from.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 16, 2011)

> I will give you credit for your sarcasm. Well done, sir. (And I mean this sincerely).



Not a single word of sarcasm in that post.  It was intended sincerely.


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## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Not a single word of sarcasm in that post.  It was intended sincerely.



Oh, ok.  My bad.  I thought you were being witty.  I toss that werse out there with regularity and you were turning it on me. I was actually quite impressed.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 16, 2011)

> C'mon guys...simmer down. It's Friday...and I'm heading home early We should all be in happy moods.




Oh, go pick out a spot and shoot a fawn you (if you're sneaky, I think you know where you should be about, oh 7pm any night).  

Leave me alone to my fun!


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## rjcruiser (Sep 16, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I paid way too little attention in "OT Survey" in college to be able to properly debate that one with you.



So did I...but I remember a few things 



JB0704 said:


> Yea, I might actually get to go hunting a bit this weekend.
> 
> Good point. My fault.



Not your fault...sometimes we all get wound up a bit over things that we shouldn't.



I'm about to head out of the office.  HS football game tonight....hunting in the morning....hopefully get that doe that slipped by me last saturday.

Have a great weekend everyone.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 16, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Oh, go pick out a spot and shoot a fawn you (if you're sneaky, I think you know where you should be about, oh 7pm any night).
> 
> Leave me alone to my fun!



hey...that's a great idea.  You know when they're going on vacation?  I'm sure they wouldn't mind


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## Huntinfool (Sep 16, 2011)

Whit's out of town for the weekend and Chad will have three boys running circles around him....they'll never notice you.

Facepaint.  You're good.  Just don't shoot my 10pt.  I'll come after you like a spider monkey.


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## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

HF, I explained my view of the resurection within this thread.  We have eyewitness accounts which reinforce each other.  We have an underground movement started by the eyewitnesses who believed so much in what they saw that most of them died for it.  I can imagine it would be difficult to round up ten of my closest buddies and get them to play along with a hoax, to the death.  So, in that perspective, I see Jesus as the most historically valid part of the entire Bible.

Why Jonah is not true? I answered by asking you how you knew "The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe" was fiction.  We can say the same about "To Kill a Mockingbird."  Atticus Finch is a literary hero, and there is much to learn from him, but he was not real.  I look at the story on it's merits and its message, knowing it is fiction all along.  I do not think the parables are the only "stories," so I am not going to believe the fact that they are declared as such makes them unique as such.

G2 mentioned the Native Americans.  Consider this, the Bible was written for Eskimos, Asians, Africans, Europeans, and every culture that ever inhabitted the Earth.  We cannot look at it from an American perspective and assume the message is going to be framed for us specifically.  By using the fish as a literary tool, the author is able to convey the message as universally and simply as possible.  That is what I see when I read the story.

Jonah may have been a real person, but so was George Washington.  We are taught all of our lives that he chopped down that cherry tree, but it never happened.  The result is we learn of his integrity.  I see a similar happenning in the book of Job.  We learn of this man's characteristics and trials through a "story."


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> So did I...but I remember a few things
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good luck!


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 16, 2011)

10-4.

But specifically as relates to your original reason....it's not physically possible.

In your second post in this thread, you said this:



> ...my current thoughts are that this story is different than Job because you don't have the "battle" of God and Satan, there are not factual contradictions (such as Job's age) and it is not written as poetry. There are aspects which are not physically possible, though.



I may have read this wrong.  But it leads me to believe that you're almost inclined to believe it could be true...except for the fact that there are aspects that are physically impossible.  In other words, you'd believe it because it doesn't have the same "problems" that Job presents....but some of it just isn't possible.

That's the point of my question and I'm not trying to keep harping on this.  But you still haven't answered that.  I can't require you to or make you answer it directly.

I agree with your reasons on the ressurection above.  My question is just if you don't "buy" Jonah because it's not physically possible...can you see why I'm curious about how you can accept the ressurection, or Lazurus or Jesus putting an ear back together given that they are also not physically possible?


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> 10-4.
> 
> But specifically as relates to your original reason....it's not physically possible.
> 
> ...



In reference to Jonah:

It's not physically possible.  That is a fact.  You have to make it supernaturally possible in order for it to be real.  I don't see that as the point.  Nor do I think it has to be.  Much like many of the stories of the OT, I think people told it in a way it would be understood, not as a literal translation of events. And, there is no historical or contemporary evidence of it being a true story.  So, I step "outside the box," and try to view it from a different angle.

I would venture to say you probably believe the same sort of thing happened when John wrote Revelation.

In reference to NT:

View previous comments on eyewitness and historical validity and folks willing to die for whatever it was they saw.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 16, 2011)

I must admit, although I believe that the Jonah story is real, I, too, prefer the eyewitness-style testimony of the NT.   Especially when it is attested to by several trustworthy witnesses.


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## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

Additionally, the Bible has several different authors, and we can assume had their own "flair."  So we have to take that into context when we view these OT stories.

Thye four gospels give four unique perspectives of the same life.  Each from a different angle, and you can see the personality of the writer coming out in the mesages they record, and the details they convey.  I would assume we can say the same for every book of the Bible.

Or, do you believe the Holy Spirit told Paul to remind Timothy to bring him his coat? (2 Tim. 4:13)


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## Huntinfool (Sep 16, 2011)

> I would venture to say you probably believe the same sort of thing happened when John wrote Revelation.



Since he said he saw it in a dream....yes.


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## mtnwoman (Sep 16, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Personally, if I thought it wasn't true, I'd consider it 'diminished'.   The Bible is about the supernatural...the miraculous.   We can't be Christians if we don't believe in the miraculous.    "..and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead"    If God raised Jesus from the dead, there's no reason to doubt that He would raise Jonah or keep him alive in the fish.



Amen!


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 16, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Additionally, the Bible has several different authors, and we can assume had their own "flair."  So we have to take that into context when we view these OT stories.
> 
> Thye four gospels give four unique perspectives of the same life.  Each from a different angle, and you can see the personality of the writer coming out in the mesages they record, and the details they convey.  I would assume we can say the same for every book of the Bible.
> 
> Or, do you believe the Holy Spirit told Paul to remind Timothy to bring him his coat? (2 Tim. 4:13)



Personally, I don't believe that the Bible is inerrant.   Nor do I believe that I have to believe it's flawless to be saved.   

Just my opinion, though.


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## mtnwoman (Sep 16, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> Thanks for the grammer lessons you guys. Didnt know it had to be so specific. If you go back just a few post after the one he made, you"ll see where I apologized and corrected. Love English majors......



Okay, thanks! I guess I should start reading the posts in reverse.....lol.

And I guess I should've really finished my thought process on that post I responded to. At the time I had noticed that several people on here capitalize satan, and that bugs me....he deserves no respect, so stop it...lol 


And one more thing, I'm used to being on a hardcore antichristian forum where people purposely use small letters to insult Christians....so I'm sorry I said anything. This is a much different forum.


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## tomtlb66 (Sep 16, 2011)

Yes I do believe he was swallowed by a whale.


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## Jabberwock (Sep 16, 2011)

I do believe a large fish (whale) swallowed Jonah and that his body was in the fish for three days. Just recently it was revealed to me that Jonah was probably dead in the fish; As Jesus quoted, "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly." (Matthew 12:40) Either way, it is an awesome miracle.


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## JFS (Sep 16, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> God did assemble the Bible through his people and by his direction.




How do you know that?


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## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Personally, I don't believe that the Bible is inerrant.   Nor do I believe that I have to believe it's flawless to be saved.
> 
> Just my opinion, though.



I initially responded based on reading your "don't" as "do."  But you have me wondering, could you explain your thoughts here.

I am not certain what I would call my beliefs on the subject.  I don't think the entire OT is fact (obviously).  I think the people writing had limited perspective, and worked within that context, much like John struggling to explain what he was seeing in revelation.  2 Tim.3:16 can mean a lot of things, but I believe it means that God is the driving force, or inspiration (as a few translations have it)  behind the literature, not that God is the author of the literature.  I think that is the reason you can see the different personalities of the authors come through in the writing.

I don't know how else to say this, but, Jonah "sounds" like fiction.  The man wanted to die because he was embarrassed that he was wrong.....after he had a brush with death.  One would think life would be a little more precious to Jonah after such an occurrence, but it wasn't.  

Does anybody have any thoughts on the point of the plant?


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## gordon 2 (Sep 17, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I initially responded based on reading your "don't" as "do."  But you have me wondering, could you explain your thoughts here.
> 
> I am not certain what I would call my beliefs on the subject.  I don't think the entire OT is fact (obviously).  I think the people writing had limited perspective, and worked within that context, much like John struggling to explain what he was seeing in revelation.  2 Tim.3:16 can mean a lot of things, but I believe it means that God is the driving force, or inspiration (as a few translations have it)  behind the literature, not that God is the author of the literature.  I think that is the reason you can see the different personalities of the authors come through in the writing.
> 
> ...




If you read Jonah about how many times he is asking to commit suicide by wishing himself dead I think it is at least 3 or four times. 

Jonah asked his boat mates to toss him in the sea! He had a death wish not unlike someone who can be depressed for example. And he will voice this death wish again a few times in the account.

For me that death wish involves the contemplation of life and especially the past. This is what we the people who are depressed  or over stressed do. We visit the past and judge today from it. We say something like this. "Gee we sugar coat alot of things to make life bareable. The reality of our life is dung.  It was always dung, is dung and will always be dung...etc." Jonah says that while in the whale he visited Shoal ( death) and the countries of the past. Jonah could see death, the past and the present in faith but stumbled on being at easy with the future. ( It's like he could not concentrate on the promises of God, which I assume that he being a prophet at some point knew.)

For me that is what the whale is a symbol of. It is a symbol of life, that is not unlike the life of a worm. Basically the beast, whale or great fish is a mindless alimentary canal. Some never escape alive if swallowed by it. But surprisesingly many do.

In my culture's litterary, oral history to escape the "anus of the whale" is to come out of oppression spiritualy and socially intact as a people. We are all swallowed by the whale to an extent, the worlds tend to oppress all, and we can become part of that whale as sustanace if we let ourselves be digested by it. As spiritual beings we can cross to the other side--and just behave as predators, paracites, etc...

Now as to the plant that shaded Jonah. The Ninivah that was saved was that plant. Ninivah was Jonah's shade just like our church communities are our shades, our trees of life. 

Churches like the city Ninivah are not the creations of missionaries, prophets and church planters. Ninivah was not saved because of Jonah. Ninivah was saved because God is just. Dynamic and wholesome churches are possible due to Jesus and the Holy Spirit, not because of charismatic leaders and congragations that are capable of writing fat checks...etc...

I think God was saying to Jonah "Look Johah my prophet why are you so hard on your self,--you who judges me and everyone including yourself to the point of wanting to die? Relax a little.... Not everything is your responsibility in faith, just what I ask you to do. Leave the rest to me. Be cool man."

PS when I was a little boy ( had six brothers and one sister) Jonah was one of our favorite stories to read. We found it very interesting and it was a good short story that played wonderfully on our immaginations.

One evening as we were reading and discussing Jonah, ( this was really entertaining to us, the was the childrens bible and only two TV chanels back then) one of us had a slip of the tongue and said, "And Jonah swallowed the whale." My heart still laughs for it to this day....


----------



## Ronnie T (Sep 17, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> If you read Jonah about how many times he is asking to commit suicide by wishing himself dead I think it is at least 3 or four times.
> 
> Jonah asked his boat mates to toss him in the sea! He had a death wish not unlike someone who can be depressed for example. And he will voice this death wish again a few times in the account.
> 
> ...



Very good thought for a Saturday morning.
"Be cool man".


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## gordon 2 (Sep 17, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Very good thought for a Saturday morning.
> "Be cool man".



Listen Saturday morning and I have lots to do, but had two Johovah's witness friends of mine in my "living" room for more than an hour. Just when I finished this post. I left them with a plea to read what Paul had to say about adding to prophecy and the Gospel of Christ.

They left me no book today....I think they forgot. Love them.... I opened John 17 and read from it, hoping that God might lead them to better endevors than visiting this old sinner with words of Aramagedon followed by a peaceful earth!   LOL  Their Good News is a bit different from the apostles'.


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## JB0704 (Sep 17, 2011)

Good thoughts, G2.  I appreciate your insight.  It is apparent you have pondered this story a lot.  I had never considered the plant in such a way.  I have a question, though, when you were a kid, and Jonah was one of your favorite stories, did you believe it was an actual event?

I was taught that all of the OT was literal.  As an adult, I read the story, and it appears to me that it, or several books in it, were never intended to be viewed that way.  So, as a kid, these stories made me scared of the "God of wrath."  Because that is what came through to me......follow God or you will get eaten by a whale!


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## JB0704 (Sep 17, 2011)

Also, I went back and read the entire thread again.  It seems as we get into these discussions a lot of thoughts get missed in an effort to keep up.  So, I have some follow up questions:

1. Why does Jonah have to be miraculous to be effective?  

2. Does the conclusion imply the story is about grace, not power?

3. Did the Holy Spirit write 2 Tim. 4:13?  If so, why did the world need to know that Paul needed his coat, and that so and so says "Hi?" (later on in the same chapter). I only ask because the implication is that the entire Bible is not God's writing, it is God's revelation through a collection of authors using various literary tools to convey a point.

4. Is OT writing constrained by NT literary rules?  There was a lot of talk about how the parables were structured.  Does this imply that the same writing technique had to be used in the OT?  I think it is just different authors at different times.

5. People always joke about people who are afraid lightning will strike them if they do (fill in the blank).  If Jonah is true, shouldn't we all be looking out for lightning?


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## Ronnie T (Sep 17, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Listen Saturday morning and I have lots to do, but had two Johovah's witness friends of mine in my "living" room for more than an hour. Just when I finished this post. I left them with a plea to read what Paul had to say about adding to prophecy and the Gospel of Christ.
> 
> They left me no book today....I think they forgot. Love them.... I opened John 17 and read from it, hoping that God might lead them to better endevors than visiting this old sinner with words of Aramagedon followed by a peaceful earth!   LOL  Their Good News is a bit different from the apostles'.



Gordy, you're a grand missionary.  
You got um coming to you. 

All I had was a home security system salesman who had to be led to the street because he wouldn't take no for an answer.
I'll trade with you next saturday.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 17, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Good thoughts, G2.  I appreciate your insight.  It is apparent you have pondered this story a lot.  I had never considered the plant in such a way.  I have a question, though, when you were a kid, and Jonah was one of your favorite stories, did you believe it was an actual event?
> 
> I was taught that all of the OT was literal.  As an adult, I read the story, and it appears to me that it, or several books in it, were never intended to be viewed that way.  So, as a kid, these stories made me scared of the "God of wrath."  Because that is what came through to me......follow God or you will get eaten by a whale!



My papa was a carpenter for the railroad and a hunter and mama, a farmer's girl, cooked everything kind of game and farm animal. If it flew, swam and ran and it was legal to hunt and eat we eet it. Mama found a way to cook it. 

My mama and papa had eight kids and mama made 24 loafs of bread per week. We would grease bread slices with butters, mollasses, jams and whatever gravy was in the roaster. Roasted rabbits and porcupine can be real good eating.

So a whale swims right and if we could of got to the meat of one...it would have visited mama's oven.

So, no as a child we suspected that a man eaten by a fish and not being digested was used in the account of Job to teach christians a lesson or perhaps two.

God made the belly to feed the soul and He made the story of Jonah in the belly of the whale to teach the little children about Himself.

Hope that made sense.

 God was never scarry when I was a kid. He delivered the oppressed. The story of Moses was real for us. It refected our life and the struggles of many around us. The benchmark for  wholesome values was Jesus and my parents visible love for each other.


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## JB0704 (Sep 17, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> God was never scarry when I was a kid. He delivered the oppressed. The story of Moses was real for us. It refected our life and the struggles of many around us. The benchmark for  wholesome values was Jesus and my parents visible love for each other.



Sounds like a good life.  I didn't quite have it that way, though I did grow up eating wild game.  Still do, we never buy beef unless we want a steak, most everything that can be made with a cow can also be made with a deer. 

I was taught that these stories revealed the power of a God, who's wrath was waiting to strike the sinners at any moment.  I was taught to fear the almighty God.  I did not get the whole "deliver from oppression" part until I actually read the Bible as if I had never been taught it......

...it was when I did that: removed religion, history, and doctrine, that I started to see grace in the message.  I was also able to wonder if Job and Jonah were "true stories" without  being afraid of a lightning strike.  As always, I appreciate your thoughts.


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## M80 (Sep 18, 2011)

I don't understand why man has to come up with an answer to the bible.

Mark 10v15  Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not recieve the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.  If we believe Jesus died for us and was raised three days later and ascended to heaven then we are saved from a devils hates.  Child like faith.  We put our trust in the lord, we have to believe what we been told and read out of the bible.  No explanation,  we were convicted of our sins and repented.  We believed.  If I met any of ya'll and told my 8 year old son you was the strongest man on the earth, you know what, he would believe me, he believes and trust me, you would not have to prove it.

The bible says 2 tim.3v16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

I believe God spirit moved upon these men that wrote the bible, "inspired", breath upon these men.  God used these men as a pen and wrote his word through these men.  This is God's word.  Therefore he is my Father and I believe and trust him like my son believes me,  I don't need any proof to know if Job or Jonah was real.  I believe they are cause God's word says they are.  I take the Bible for what it says, The bible says Jonah the son of Amittai,  real man with real father.  Pretty straight forward to me.

With God all things are possible, The bible says to absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.  If Jonah died in the belly of the whale why would he pray to him, he would be in his(Jesus) presence.

I just don't understand why men have to be so smart and explain what they think it means, take it for what it says.


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## 1gr8bldr (Sep 18, 2011)

mwilliams80 said:


> I don't understand why man has to come up with an answer to the bible.
> 
> Mark 10v15  Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not recieve the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.  If we believe Jesus died for us and was raised three days later and ascended to heaven then we are saved from a devils hates.  Child like faith.  We put our trust in the lord, we have to believe what we been told and read out of the bible.  No explanation,  we were convicted of our sins and repented.  We believed.  If I met any of ya'll and told my 8 year old son you was the strongest man on the earth, you know what, he would believe me, he believes and trust me, you would not have to prove it.
> 
> ...



Jonah would not have been with Jesus when he died.


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Sep 18, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I can respond for myself HF.  I appreciate it though.


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Sep 18, 2011)

formula1 said:


> Yes, indeed!  Two reasons the lead me to that:
> 
> Jonah is mentioned in other places in scripture:
> 1) 2 Kings 14:25
> ...



I find it odd that you're referencing other scripture to lend credibility to the story.  What's wrong with the story itself?  Does the fact that you have to find something to "add validity" concern you at all?


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## Six million dollar ham (Sep 18, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Do you believe Jonah was actually swallowed by a large fish, and live in the fishes stomach for 3 days.



Not for a minute.  

Also, we've covered this particular fairy tale before in great detail.


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## CAL (Sep 18, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> My papa was a carpenter for the railroad and a hunter and mama, a farmer's girl, cooked everything kind of game and farm animal. If it flew, swam and ran and it was legal to hunt and eat we eet it. Mama found a way to cook it.
> 
> My mama and papa had eight kids and mama made 24 loafs of bread per week. We would grease bread slices with butters, mollasses, jams and whatever gravy was in the roaster. Roasted rabbits and porcupine can be real good eating.
> 
> ...



Oh me,what a beautiful post!I love that gordon!
What a beautiful way to tell a wonderful story!
Sounds like you came from a very special family to me,thanks for the post!


----------



## CAL (Sep 18, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Do you believe Jonah was actually swallowed by a large fish, and live in the fishes stomach for 3 days.
> 
> There's lots of lessons from Jonah.
> 
> Probably as many as from Job.



Just wondering,how can one believe Jesus died on the cross and was raised in 3 days and not believe the story of Jonah?
Just wondering?


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 18, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I initially responded based on reading your "don't" as "do."  But you have me wondering, could you explain your thoughts here.



I'm sure many would consider it sacrilege but, no, I don't believe the Bible is 'error-free', nor do I believe that it's mandatory to believe in it is inerrant.   I have my own 'examples' that I could share, but I'm not for giving 'others' ammunition.      Well, at least not any more than admitting that I believe there are mistakes.  

I'm a KJV guy, and I believe there were some things 'lost' in the translation, or at least things could have been worded better.    For example, Isaiah 53:4 should read "bare our sicknesses" instead of "carried our sorrows".    A lot lost in the one tiny verse, IMO.   

I'd entertain discussions using PMs, but not here.   I might get mad and upset!


----------



## gordon 2 (Sep 18, 2011)

CAL said:


> Oh me,what a beautiful post!I love that gordon!
> What a beautiful way to tell a wonderful story!
> Sounds like you came from a very special family to me,thanks for the post!



My parents were not the Waltons. They lost patience sometimes. I have six brothers and one sister all two yrs apart.

After supper at my house it was not always fun for my tired mom. My dad was away on the railroad working all week and came home only on the weekends.

One yr when I had moved away- I am the oldest- one of my brothers say mom cut the christmas tree in half with the swing of a hockey stick. She was overwelmed because no one would "listen" and said, " Christmas is not gona happen this yr." and decapitated the tree--- ornaments, lights and all. 

Brother says next day she had dad cutting an other one.
My mom was from a family of four girls and two boys and would often say, "Thank God I did not get more girls. Boys are so much easier to raise." I can't immagine.


----------



## Ronnie T (Sep 18, 2011)

CAL said:


> Just wondering,how can one believe Jesus died on the cross and was raised in 3 days and not believe the story of Jonah?
> Just wondering?



Good point.


----------



## Ronnie T (Sep 18, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> My parents were not the Waltons. They lost patience sometimes. I have six brothers and one sister all two yrs apart.
> 
> After supper at my house it was not always fun for my tired mom. My dad was away on the railroad working all week and came home only on the weekends.
> 
> ...



I can't either.


----------



## gordon 2 (Sep 18, 2011)

CAL said:


> Just wondering,how can one believe Jesus died on the cross and was raised in 3 days and not believe the story of Jonah?
> Just wondering?[/QUO
> ----------------------------------
> I don't think it is a question of not believing the story of Jonah. The story of Jonah is real.
> ...


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Sep 18, 2011)

CAL said:


> Just wondering,how can one believe Jesus died on the cross and was raised in 3 days and not believe the story of Jonah?
> Just wondering?



Believe me, I agree with you there.


----------



## gordon 2 (Sep 18, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Believe me, I agree with you there.



In a horse race, or in a pasture, it would be possible to see the difference between a mule and a thoroughbred.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 18, 2011)

CAL said:


> Just wondering,how can one believe Jesus died on the cross and was raised in 3 days and not believe the story of Jonah?
> Just wondering?



I addressed this in about three previous posts, references to eyewitnesses, resulting movement, etc., etc..

Since I know many folks today who do not follow God's will, but still do not get eaten alive by whales, I tend to believe the story is just a story with a message.

G2 has made much better points for this than I have.  But, I posted a question previously which nobody has answered:

If Jonah was real, shouldn't we all be worried?  Because, if we don't follow God, the result could be getting eaten  by a whale, or struck by lightning, or whatever horrible thing you can imagine God might visit upon you.

Now, if Jonah is a story with a message, then we can sit on our porches and watch those spring storms in relative peace.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 18, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> I'm sure many would consider it sacrilege but, no, I don't believe the Bible is 'error-free', nor do I believe that it's mandatory to believe in it is inerrant.   I have my own 'examples' that I could share, but I'm not for giving 'others' ammunition.      Well, at least not any more than admitting that I believe there are mistakes.



I find it interesting that so many think it is sacrilege to even question whether or not a story in the Bible is historical or fiction.  There are lessons to learn whether the stories happened or not.  There is a lot I could learn from Jonah, even if he never really got eaten by that fish.

I don't think many of those stories were ever intended to be taken literally.  But I don't think that diminishes God at all, either.


----------



## Ronnie T (Sep 18, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I addressed this in about three previous posts, references to eyewitnesses, resulting movement, etc., etc..
> 
> Since I know many folks today who do not follow God's will, but still do not get eaten alive by whales, I tend to believe the story is just a story with a message.
> 
> ...



Real or fictional, I sit on my back deck in relative peace.
I haven't been swallowed by a fish, but I'm sure God has disciplined me a time or two in life.  I hope I responded at least as well as Jonah did.


----------



## Ronnie T (Sep 18, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I find it interesting that so many think it is sacrilege to even question whether or not a story in the Bible is historical or fiction.  There are lessons to learn whether the stories happened or not.  There is a lot I could learn from Jonah, even if he never really got eaten by that fish.
> 
> I don't think many of those stories were ever intended to be taken literally.  But I don't think that diminishes God at all, either.



I don't think it does either.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 18, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> I haven't been swallowed by a fish, but I'm sure God has disciplined me a time or two in life.  I hope I responded at least as well as Jonah did.



Do you worry that that discipline might be getting eaten next time you are down at the ocean?  I am not being difficult, but do you kind-of see what I am saying?  The story does not line up with our current reality.  I have never heard of many of the things in the Bible happening in modern times.


----------



## CAL (Sep 18, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Since I know many folks today who do not follow God's will, but still do not get eaten alive by whales, I tend to believe the story is just a story with a message.
> 
> 
> If Jonah was real, shouldn't we all be worried?  Because, if we don't follow God, the result could be getting eaten  by a whale, or struck by lightning, or whatever horrible thing you can imagine God might visit upon you.
> ...



Well,I guess it just boils down to how one believes.The Bible does speak of the rain falling on the just and the unjust as well.

I do believe God has ways of getting ones attention when it seems He wishes too.I believe in my life He was trying to show me some things and He very well did too.

I also believe the story of Jonah was real and the Lord had a message for him.I think ole Jonah got the message.

One more thing,I was struck by lightening when I was a boy .


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 18, 2011)

CAL said:


> One more thing,I was struck by lightening when I was a boy .



.....well, I will use a different example next time


----------



## Ronnie T (Sep 18, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Do you worry that that discipline might be getting eaten next time you are down at the ocean?  I am not being difficult, but do you kind-of see what I am saying?  The story does not line up with our current reality.  I have never heard of many of the things in the Bible happening in modern times.



Hey!  I've heard of a few people being eaten by fish.
???? Who knows!

We live in a different dispensation than Jonah.  Today, God leads and guides us with His holy Spirit and His word.  But who's to say how God might disciple and get our attention from time to time in our lives.
But love cast out fear.  I have no fear of God.  I fear myself!


----------



## Ronnie T (Sep 18, 2011)

CAL said:


> Well,I guess it just boils down to how one believes.The Bible does speak of the rain falling on the just and the unjust as well.
> 
> I do believe God has ways of getting ones attention when it seems He wishes too.I believe in my life He was trying to show me some things and He very well did too.
> 
> ...



I was struck by lightning two months ago.
Well, not a direct strike, but enough that I bounced up and down a little while.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 18, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Hey!  I've heard of a few people being eaten by fish.
> ???? Who knows!



....and regurgitated three days later, and go on to tell about it?  



Ronnie T said:


> We live in a different dispensation than Jonah.  Today, God leads and guides us with His holy Spirit and His word.  But who's to say how God might disciple and get our attention from time to time in our lives.
> But love cast out fear.  I have no fear of God.  I fear myself!



That is an interesting topic, and I hope we can get a good thread going on it soon.

But, fearing the Lord is what I was raised to do.  That was before I learned about grace.  Now, I don't look out for disaster every time I mess up, because, unlike the faith I was raised in, I believe in forgiveness.


----------



## Ronnie T (Sep 18, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> ....and regurgitated three days later, and go on to tell about it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I try not to speculate concerning God and His stuff.  On my bad days I might err and begin talking about stuff I don't know, but I know better.

I was raised in a church that taught me to fear God.
Taught me a lot of things that I've overcome.  Today I try to never do or believe something just because the church believes that way.
I'd rather be wrong but comfortable with my belief than do or believe something just because someone else told me I should.  
I need to know for myself.
You need to know for yourself.
And what you and I know might change a million times during our lives.  But I'd rather grow than be a tape recording.

For me, the answer is always found in God's word.
It will always be simple and straightforward.
It will make sense.


----------



## stringmusic (Sep 19, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> I find it odd that you're referencing other scripture to lend credibility to the story.  What's wrong with the story itself? * Does the fact that you have to find something to "add validity" concern you at all*?



Because we don't believe everything we read, contrary to what you and your buddies might think.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 19, 2011)

Yep, it's one of several tests that are used to test the validity of documents from the past.   

internal evidence
external evidence
bibliographic test.

Always good to have other writers verifying events!   


Man, we sure have been teaching some lessons here lately!   Everyone's getting smarter!


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Sep 19, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Because we don't believe everything we read, contrary to what you and your buddies might think.



Yes, wouldn't want to be lax in your fact checking.  Very important to verify things scientifically like that.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 19, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Yes, wouldn't want to be lax in your fact checking.  Very important to verify things scientifically like that.




You can't verify events of the past scientifically.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 19, 2011)

> Do you worry that that discipline might be getting eaten next time you are down at the ocean? I am not being difficult, but do you kind-of see what I am saying? The story does not line up with our current reality. I have never heard of many of the things in the Bible happening in modern times.




"....even so, it is well with my soul"


That's what comes to mind when I read this.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 19, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> "....even so, it is well with my soul"
> 
> 
> That's what comes to mind when I read this.



Ok, so you believe next time you don't follow God, a bear comes and eats you, you are going to be singing an old hymn?

It makes for great "chest thumping" type stuff, but let's talk reality.  How many of you actually believe God might send something to eat you if you mess up?  I know you believe God discipline's folks, but under the new dispensation, as RT puts it, where are the lines drawn?


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 19, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Ok, so you believe next time you don't follow God, a bear comes and eats you, you are going to be singing an old hymn?
> 
> It makes for great "chest thumping" type stuff, but let's talk reality.  How many of you actually believe God might send something to eat you if you mess up?  I know you believe God discipline's folks, but under the new dispensation, as RT puts it, where are the lines drawn?



If that were true, JB, I'd have been gone long ago.        I'm glad He prefers the repentance, to the punishment, of the sinner.   

We'd all act differently, too, if 'payday' came every Friday!   lol


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 19, 2011)

> Ok, so you believe next time you don't follow God, a bear comes and eats you, you are going to be singing an old hymn?
> 
> It makes for great "chest thumping" type stuff, but let's talk reality. How many of you actually believe God might send something to eat you if you mess up? I know you believe God discipline's folks, but under the new dispensation, as RT puts it, where are the lines drawn?



My point was that, if God were to choose to discipline me (and brother....he has in a big way in the past....but not with a whale), at this point in my life I feel that I could say "it is well with my soul" because I trust him and know that he disciplines those he loves and desires.

Would I be able to say that if I found out my kid had cancer and there was nothing that could be done?  It would take everything in me I believe.  But in the end, God is good and yes...it is well with my soul.

I can think of several recent examples of Christian martyrs (within the past 100 years or so) who were literally singing hymns as they were being burned alive, etc.  Do some research...I think you'll be shocked at what a truly deep love of Christ will do (not that I'm there yet).

Where are the lines drawn?  I have no idea.  You will not hear me say that God couldn't bring up a whale to swallow somebody even today.  I get the sense from your posts that you don't think "in reality" that he can do it....or could back then.  I get the sense that you, somehow, don't really know whether he's really that powerful.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 19, 2011)

That reminds me.... 

Have you guys ever read the account of the martyrdom of St Perpetua?    Awesome read for Christians.   It talks about how she seemed to be 'helped' in death.

http://www.stperpetuaparish.org/passionof_stperpetua.htm

This is a link from a quick google search....


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 19, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> I get the sense from your posts that you don't think "in reality" that he can do it....or could back then.  I get the sense that you, somehow, don't really know whether he's really that powerful.



Is there a question in here?  

It's not whether or not he can, its whether or not he does.  There is no biblical context that I am aware of claiming God will no longer have folks eaten alive by whales.  I know he quit flooding the Earth, and made that very clear.

So, instead of asking a question I have already answered within this thread, could you please answer the question?  Where are the modern lines drawn on God's discipline, and what is the Biblical justification for your belief?


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 19, 2011)

Would I Corinthians 5 be considered discipline?    This guy was 'turned over to Satan'.....but it doesn't say anything else about what happened....but in II Corinthians the guy has apparently been broken.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 19, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Would I Corinthians 5 be considered discipline?    This guy was 'turned over to Satan'.....but it doesn't say anything else about what happened....but in II Corinthians the guy has apparently been broken.



I thought that was church discipline?


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 19, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> I get the sense from your posts that you don't think "in reality" that he can do it....or could back then.  I get the sense that you, somehow, don't really know whether he's really that powerful.



Go back and read #18 & #124.

I get the sense you would rather stick with you predetermined conclusions.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 19, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I thought that was church discipline?



It is.   Just wondered what you guys might think of it, though.    'Turning him over to Satan' could imply that the devil would have more leeway with him.    

Just wondering...


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 19, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> It is.   Just wondered what you guys might think of it, though.    'Turning him over to Satan' could imply that the devil would have more leeway with him.
> 
> Just wondering...



The way I read it, I figured "over to satan" was like "over to the world," or, his own immorality.  But not literally over to satan.


----------



## formula1 (Sep 19, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> That reminds me....
> 
> Have you guys ever read the account of the martyrdom of St Perpetua?    Awesome read for Christians.   It talks about how she seemed to be 'helped' in death.
> 
> ...



Thank you Bander!  I have read it now! Chilling and glorious at the same time!


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 19, 2011)

formula1 said:


> Thank you Bander!  I have read it now! Chilling and glorious at the same time!



I cry like a baby every time I read it.   I like how another author picks up the story after she enters Colosseum.   


Reading it shows me how far I've got to go...


----------



## formula1 (Sep 19, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Reading it shows me how far I've got to go...



Yes...Almost exactly what I was thinking! I truly have not suffered...but rather the blessings of God have been poured out upon me immeasurably. I am convicted that I take for granted such a gift. Lord forgive me!


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 19, 2011)

We know that St Perpetua wasn't baptist.....since all she would have had to do was denounce Christ, and then later, when they had released her, she could just ask forgiveness!!


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 19, 2011)

> Where are the modern lines drawn on God's discipline, and what is the Biblical justification for your belief?



I thought I answered that.  Go back and re-read my post.  I won't tell you he can't or won't do it again.  He never promised he wouldn't.

I believe he used that "fish" at that time for a specific purpose.  It's not as if whales are his preferred punishment of choice or something though.  He used that whale because of the situation at hand I believe.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 19, 2011)

> Go back and read #18 & #124.
> 
> I get the sense you would rather stick with you predetermined conclusions.



A little edgy today aren't we? 

Help Help I'm being repressed!  Come see the violence inherant in the system!  (I couldn't help it....forgive me).


----------



## formula1 (Sep 19, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> We know that St Perpetua wasn't baptist.....since all she would have had to do was denounce Christ, and then later, when they had released her, she could just ask forgiveness!!:



Hey come on, I'm Baptist (sort of)!


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 19, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> A little edgy today aren't we?
> 
> Help Help I'm being repressed!  Come see the violence inherant in the system!  (I couldn't help it....forgive me).



You made the claim.  I just pointed out the flaws.

Not sure how the repressed comment plays in.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 19, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> A little edgy today aren't we?



Are you aware of how condescending you sound?


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 19, 2011)

formula1 said:


> Hey come on, I'm Baptist (sort of)!



Just having some fun, Formula!   lol    I love Baptist jokes     No offense intended. 

I have wondered that, though.   Were the Christians who recanted still saved?   Why wouldn't this young new mother just say "Ok, I recant.  I'm not a Christian!" and go back to her newborn baby and ask forgiveness later?


----------



## Ronnie T (Sep 19, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Just having some fun, Formula!   lol    I love Baptist jokes     No offense intended.
> 
> I have wondered that, though.   Were the Christians who recanted still saved?   Why wouldn't this young new mother just say "Ok, I recant.  I'm not a Christian!" and go back to her newborn baby and ask forgiveness later?



Because a disciple doesn't do that.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 19, 2011)

out of fear....many could.   disciple.  new christian.    etc


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 19, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Because a disciple doesn't do that.



Peter thought he would never deny him, too.    Fear could make anyone, especially a new, weak Christian, recant.


----------



## formula1 (Sep 19, 2011)

*Re:*

I would like to think the most of us who have the indwelling Power of the Holy Spirit would at the point of decision have already decided the this world has no hold on us but that we have traded today for the heavenly estate with the Father.

I would hope!


----------



## Ronnie T (Sep 19, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Peter thought he would never deny him, too.    Fear could make anyone, especially a new, weak Christian, recant.



I agree, but it doesn't excuse premeditated denial of Jesus Christ.
It's never as easy as 'deny now for the purpose of repenting later'.

Peter denied Jesus, and then he did much more than repent later.  He mourned because of his weakness.


----------



## thedeacon (Sep 19, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Do you believe Jonah was actually swallowed by a large fish, and live in the fishes stomach for 3 days.
> 
> There's lots of lessons from Jonah.
> 
> Probably as many as from Job.



Why wouldn't I believe this part of the bible. Is there anyone here that believes that God is not capable of keeping a man alive three days in the belly of a fish. I think not. 

Their is a lot of things in the bible that seem hard to believe but I believe in the complete power of God.

Besides its such a cool story


----------



## StriperAddict (Sep 19, 2011)

formula1 said:


> I would like to think the most of us who have the indwelling Power of the Holy Spirit would at the point of decision have already decided the this world has no hold on us but that we have trading today for the heavenly estate with the Father.
> 
> I would hope!


 
I rekon it so by His promise, not from my own will... weak as it is, but by faith.  I believe there will be grace for such a stand for the Lord if (when) the time comes.


----------



## CAL (Sep 19, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> .
> 
> Where are the lines drawn?  I have no idea.  You will not hear me say that God couldn't bring up a whale to swallow somebody even today.  I get the sense from your posts that you don't think "in reality" that he can do it....or could back then.  I get the sense that you, somehow, don't really know whether he's really that powerful.



Take my word for it if you will,God is all powerful and in control of everything whatsoever one can even imagine.I have seen His Power,couldn't have been anything else! There and is no other logical answer for what I experienced and have seen!The Glory is all His.


----------



## formula1 (Sep 19, 2011)

*Re:*



StriperAddict said:


> I rekon it so by His promise, not from my own will... weak as it is, but by faith.  I believe there will be grace for such a stand for the Lord if (when) the time comes.



Amen.  Man cannot please God except by Faith. And grace abounds  all the more in Faith!


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 19, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Are you aware of how condescending you sound?



Apparently not...



I'm not sure if it's a preconditioned response or what.  But you reacted hard core to innocent posts today and I was just asking why.  If that sounded condescending, it wasn't intended to be.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 19, 2011)

CAL said:


> Take my word for it if you will,God is all powerful and in control of everything whatsoever one can even imagine.I have seen His Power,couldn't have been anything else! There and is no other logical answer for what I experienced and have seen!The Glory is all His.



I'm with ya my man!

I've experienced some things that would make your head spin and who did it was without question.


----------



## KissMyBass (Sep 19, 2011)

bible says it and i believe it


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 19, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> But you reacted hard core to innocent posts today and I was just asking why.



You never asked why, you may want to go back and read where you told me what sense you were getting about me.  I still am having trouble understanding what you are talking about being hard core.....

"There are three things I have learned never to discuss with people: religion, politics, and the great pumpkin" - Linus Van Pelt (wikipedia)


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 19, 2011)

Good grief....- Charles Brown (my own recollection)








Just for you.  Here is the clip...


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 19, 2011)

I still don't see the application today.  I never said anybody was oppressing me.

But, for future reference, I would rather discuss a point on its merits, instead of its application to the "holy grail,"......otherwise, we could both post movie clips at each other.....think about it.....


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 20, 2011)

JB,

It's just a joke man.  Take a breath.  



BTW....EVERYTHING applies to "The Holy Grail".  It's man law.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 20, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> JB,
> 
> It's just a joke man.  Take a breath.



I'm breathing just fine HF.  You have yet to point out where I claimed opression within this thread.  I don't think we want to get into a TV reference war, otherwise, I will start posting "South Park" clips of Butters playing the drums in a Christian band.  It's just counter productive.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 20, 2011)

You're funny.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 20, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> You're funny.



....but you kind-of see my point, right?


----------



## The Foreigner (Sep 21, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Its got nothing to do with believing.  It has everything to do with interpretation.  Jonah being a "story" does not incriminate the validity of it.  Same with Job.  The parables were not "true stories."  Does that mean the whole Bible is fake?
> 
> I am still reading it, I will have better thoughts tomorrow.



Got to come to the defence of JB0704 here (and I speak as someone who believes the literal Jonah story).  

We do need to identify what kind of genre of writing we are dealing with. In Jonah's case there is nothing to tell us that it is anything other than good old history - to be believed literally.  I guess some might suggest otherwise, but it seems difficult to argue that. 

When we come to a psalm however, we understand that some of the language is poetical designed to convey a truth. The Lord is not literally a Rock or a Shepherd (even Christ's literal occupation was not such). We know this teaching is true, but it is symbolically true and not literally true as with Jonah.  So it's not always picking and chosing what to believe - it's sometimes dealing with the context.

However Jonah was real and historical. And as for Jonah being alive in the fish - look at Jonah 2 - he prayed from inside it! Also it was a big fish Jonah 1:17 is translated "fish great", and 2:1 he was in the "belly of the fish". That's literal translation - no flesh-eating sea monster or whale!! 

Peace


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 21, 2011)

....uh....but JB is saying that it IS just a story.


----------



## The Foreigner (Sep 21, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> ....uh....but JB is saying that it IS just a story.



Right, I guess I should have been more clear - I was responding to the "isn't everything in the bible LITERALLY true". I agree that Jonah's narrative is historically true, but not all Scripture should be read as historical narrative. 

Does that make more sense?


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 21, 2011)

The Foreigner said:


> The Lord is not literally a Rock or a Shepherd (even Christ's literal occupation was not such)



That reminds me of when I left my last job.   My director was Muslim, and somehow at my going-away luncheon we began discussing religion.   He mentioned to my boss that Jesus was a shepherd.   LOL    Anyone who knows anything knows that Jesus was no actual shepherd!  My boss said nothing to correct him.   I always wished I could go back and ask the muslim director how many other lies and mistruths he had been taught about Jesus.   lol


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