# What is the proper use of Grace?



## gordon 2 (May 16, 2012)

What is the proper use of Grace for a christian? Your ideas? Paul's ideas? Where, how and when can we go wrong with grace?

Is grace in our lives, concerning others tolerance, celebration of differences or something else? Does grace have a spiritual purpose for christians in their walk, their missions, their endeavors, or is it something one received from God once?

 Ephesians 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passes knowledge, that you might be filled with all the fullness of God.

Philemon 1:25 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen


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## Michael F. Gray (May 16, 2012)

GRACE=  Gods Riches At Christ's Expense


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## Ronnie T (May 16, 2012)

Grace, itself, is not for us to use.  God gives to us through his grace.

God gives us many thing through His grace, and we're able to use them.
1.  Our moment of salvation was through grace.
2.  The inward Holy Spirit is through grace.
3.  A Christian's ability to flee from temptation came through grace.
4.  God's word.  In black and white, and in our heart, is through grace.
5.  When we ask for forgiveness, we are then forgiven through God's grace.

more, more, more.


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## gordon 2 (May 16, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> Grace, itself, is not for us to use.  God gives to us through his grace.
> 
> God gives us many thing through His grace, and we're able to use them.
> 1.  Our moment of salvation was through grace.
> ...



Thanks for your reply brother, but I'm haveing a hard time following where you are going with this. 

For example what is the diference with what you see and this: 
The gospels say a master felt sorry for a servant and cancelled his debt. The servant upon meeting a fellow which owed him, seized him by the throat and began to throttle him. " Pay what you owe me."

Matthew 18:32-33  Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, "O you wicked servant, I forgave you all that debt, because you desired me. Were  you not bound then to have pity on your fellow servant just as I had pity on you?"

Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers." (Eph. 4:29). 


???


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## Israel (May 16, 2012)

I think grace is something that's to work in us.
And then through us...to...and then in others...I think it's something God wants to have get around.
I believe that's why he gives it...cause he likes to see it work.


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## 1gr8bldr (May 16, 2012)

undeserved merit


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## Artfuldodger (May 16, 2012)

Use God's grace as an influence to forgive others. Forgiveness is something I have trouble with.


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## Ronnie T (May 16, 2012)

gordon 2 said:


> Thanks for your reply brother, but I'm haveing a hard time following where you are going with this.
> 
> For example what is the diference with what you see and this:
> The gospels say a master felt sorry for a servant and cancelled his debt. The servant upon meeting a fellow which owed him, seized him by the throat and began to throttle him. " Pay what you owe me."
> ...



What I said has nothing to do with what you've said.

.


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## gtparts (May 17, 2012)

As some have said, grace is of God. It is not so much a "thing", to be appropriated and used. It is what Christ has done for us and that same Christ working through us. While grace was intended for us, that was not to be the end of it. God's expectation is that we be a conduit of His grace to others.

As for tolerance, grace was never meant to facilitate tolerance. God sees all things, all people, as black or white (NOT a reference to pigmentation), positive or negative, right or wrong. You can't be a "little" pregnant, a "little" sinful, a "little" perfect. Any mixture is a contamination of the whole. Brother, sin is total contamination. God doesn't save just a portion of who you are spiritually. God's Law says it is all or nothing. The issue has always been that we cannot raise ourselves to that level,.... but God can and does... through grace. Tolerance is giving someone a "pass" when they have earned the "ultimate FAIL". Let's face it, some behavior is unacceptable. That's the Law. 

Grace, on the other hand, is the offer of forgiveness based on repentance, releasing someone from the power of the Law, to not exact punishment on the guilty by making an alternative available to the sinner. The grace of God comes with very specific requirements. Grace does not mean God no longer hates sin. It means the punishment was taken by someone else, Jesus' substitutionary death on the cross. While the offer(ing) has been made, the continued behavior is still an offense to God.

So, what does that "look like" when it is applied to others? One is to love others while letting them know they have not met God's standard. Often the response is, "Don't put your stuff on me. I don't have to live according to your standards." Now, while they may be our standards, they are only relevant to the subject because they are God's standards. Brokenness is when the individual  laments breaking God's standards, not ours.

As for celebrating differences, some should be celebrated while other differences should not. Some things are acceptable to God and some are not. God's principle of grace does not change God's mind about wrong thought and wrong behavior being wrong. What is evil is evil yesterday, tomorrow, and forever. The only change is that the consequences, the outcome can be different.

Finally, grace was never to be a one-shot deal. It is, as the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, supposed to be a continual filling. The Holy Spirit and grace are to spill over and out of our lives, always.


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## formula1 (May 17, 2012)

*Re:*

I liked the comments by all so far.  This Grace is far too wonderful to put my head around, but here is my poor effort:

Grace - The favor of a loving God that allows me the opportunity to exchange my life for His.


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## gemcgrew (May 17, 2012)

Grace is eternal and was bestowed upon chosen sinners in Christ before the world was made. It is accomplished and finished in eternity. (2 Timothy 1:9,10), (Romans 8:28-30), (Ephesians 1:3-6)


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## Israel (May 18, 2012)

I knew a brother who would say this:

"I love grace...because...I love where I have to go to get it..."


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## 1gr8bldr (May 18, 2012)

In the OT, God was misrepresented. Religious leaders used the fear of God as a tool to get what they wanted. God was seen as a God with a big stick, ready to whop you over the head at every failure of a law system, most of which was never his idea, but the extremes of man. But Grace is a NT reality, We find out that God is not like that, that he is patient, careing, and deals with us as a loving Father would do.


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## Ronnie T (May 18, 2012)

If we'll think about it we'll see that God's grace has always been a part of His creation.  It began with Adam and Eve.  Even see God's grace when their son killed his brother.
God was gracious to David, Saul, Jonah, Isaiah, Israel in captivity.  Thousands of people, thousands of different ways.

Some lives were changed through God's grace.
Some greedily accepted God's grace, but were not moved by it.


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## thedeacon (May 19, 2012)

Israel said:


> I knew a brother who would say this:
> 
> "I love grace...because...I love where I have to go to get it..."





I love this comment. How true it is.

Grace is a wonderful thing as is Faith, Mercy and Hope.

As Christians we need to learn all we can about any 
of these.

Grace only comes from God, if you love God and live
in his presance you are a carrier of Grace. Grace is
one of the Godly traits that a person MUST have
in order to claim a place in the kingdom.

What a wonderful thing to go to God and receive
his grace, it is also a wonderful thing to offer
the same grace to those around us that do
not deserve it just as we did not deserve Gods
grace.

Gods love is a wonderful thing.


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## mtnwoman (May 19, 2012)

Israel said:


> I think grace is something that's to work in us.
> And then through us...to...and then in others...I think it's something God wants to have get around.
> I believe that's why he gives it...cause he likes to see it work.



Amen!!!

Our goal is to be like Jesus. He gives us peace, grace, mercy, blessings, eternal life. We are to pass that along. It's the Jesus in me that does the work, that I, a mere human am pretty incapable of doing on my own.

We don't have to have a reason to give anybody anything or do anything for anyone, other than God has extented to us those same things. Nor should there be any stipulations on anything we do for another person.


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## mtnwoman (May 19, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Grace is eternal and was bestowed upon chosen sinners in Christ before the world was made. It is accomplished and finished in eternity. (2 Timothy 1:9,10), (Romans 8:28-30), (Ephesians 1:3-6)



So according to you if I follow in Christ's foot steps, then I can just pick and chose who I want to feed? and I also can choose who I do and don't think deserves mercy and grace? I can take 5 children to mcdonalds and only have grace on 3 of them, and God would be approving of that because that's what He does? Grace is not offered to all? That will certainly make all 5 children love God, eh?

Alrighty then.


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## mtnwoman (May 19, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> undeserved merit



exactly!


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## Artfuldodger (May 19, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> So according to you if I follow in Christ's foot steps, then I can just pick and chose who I want to feed? and I also can choose who I do and don't think deserves mercy and grace? I can take 5 children to mcdonalds and only have grace on 3 of them, and God would be approving of that because that's what He does? Grace is not offered to all? That will certainly make all 5 children love God, eh?
> 
> Alrighty then.


 I like your analogy.That would be the example of some peoples idea of God & Jesus.


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## gemcgrew (May 19, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> So according to you if I follow in Christ's foot steps, then I can just pick and chose who I want to feed? and I also can choose who I do and don't think deserves mercy and grace? I can take 5 children to mcdonalds and only have grace on 3 of them, and God would be approving of that because that's what He does? Grace is not offered to all? That will certainly make all 5 children love God, eh?
> 
> Alrighty then.



With all respect, I do not know how you can read my post and end up at McDonalds.


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## Artfuldodger (May 19, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> With all respect, I do not know how you can read my post and end up at McDonalds.


 Not addressed to me but I would like to give my answer. 
Jesus didn't pick & choose who listened to his messages as he went from village to village to teach. He came to save us but he also came to teach. Why should we pick & choose who to feed if all are hungry? Why would God pick & choose who to provide salvation to if all need it? Jesus didn't so why would God?


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## gemcgrew (May 19, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Jesus didn't pick & choose who listened to his messages as he went from village to village to teach.


 Why do you suppose that "he must needs go through Samaria?" (John 4:4)


Artfuldodger said:


> Why should we pick & choose who to feed if all are hungry?


You assume that all are hungry.


Artfuldodger said:


> Why would God pick & choose who to provide salvation to if all need it?


Please go to the AAA sub forum and ask them if they need it.


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## mtnwoman (May 19, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> With all respect, I do not know how you can read my post and end up at McDonalds.



Really? I think you know what I mean.....you don't see how grace to some is different than grace to all?  Those same children might be 3 of God's elect and the other 2 are not, why shouldn't mercy be extended to them as well? like you say?
I don't know anywhere that Jesus says follow me and only show grace on a special few as you go, grace and salvation doesn't belong to all. So feed whichever children at mcdonalds that you have grace on and to hades with the others.

Jesus died on the cross for everyone who will accept Him as being the Son of God and repent.....He doesn't feed a couple of children and give them eternal life and let the others go to hades for absolutely no reason at all, except that He can and is  a respector of persons.

I am not, I follow what Jesus says and He tells us to extend grace to all, not some.

Does that explain it better?


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## mtnwoman (May 19, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Please go to the AAA sub forum and ask them if they need it.



Please go to the AAA sub forum? I'd say launch a little bit farther out into the deep, to catch more 'fish'....and I'm sure Christ wasn't really talking about fish.

Why not preach and teach the gospel to all?
You've got it all wrapped up in a little box, God, Jesus, God's special chosen ones, all tied up with a pretty red bow. And no one else can get in because they were not selected by God, so no matter whether we preach the gospel or not doesn't matter, the chosen are the chosen period...nothing can change that. The unchosen are the unchosen nothing can change that, so why bother spreading the gospel. Seems like a huge waste of time if God already has selected His chosen few.

We didn't need Jesus then to be saved, we just needed to luck into the preselected category.


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## mtnwoman (May 20, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Why do you suppose that "he must needs go through Samaria?" (John 4:4)*I don't know, why don't you tell us what you think. If you read the entire scripture instead of a word or 3, it makes much more sense.  So in your opinion what does that one tidbit of scripture mean to you?*
> 
> You assume that all are hungry.*Oh for picky sake.....whoever is hungry then, should be fed. If we follow Christ, that is what He did, He fed all the hungry, not just His chosen few.*
> 
> Please go to the AAA sub forum and ask them if they need it.



I didn't how we are suppose to pick and choose WWJD and follow His teachings and become more like Him when I'd have to figure out.....let's see since Jesus limits His grace, then I should, too....or not....I dunno....tell me again how to follow Jesus? Do exactly as Christ and have mercy on all or limit our mercy and grace on others like our God did/does....hmmmmmmmmm.


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## gemcgrew (May 20, 2012)

mtnwoman, one of the things I love about you is your tenacity. I commented in this thread regarding Grace and provided scriptural references. It appears to me that I was predestined in the elect thread to take on the identity of your son in law. I only hope that in my suffering, he has a little peace. How could I deny him that? 

As I mentioned before, in order to prevent every thread from turning into a discussion on election, perhaps we should discuss via private messages. I am not opposed to discussing these things in person as well.


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## Artfuldodger (May 20, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Why do you suppose that "he must needs go through Samaria?" (John 4:4)


They had a well could be the simple answer.  In the verse below "whosoever" means everyone or anyone.

John 4:14
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.


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## mtnwoman (May 20, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> mtnwoman, one of the things I love about you is your tenacity. I commented in this thread regarding Grace and provided scriptural references. It appears to me that I was predestined in the elect thread to take on the identity of your son in law. I only hope that in my suffering, he has a little peace. How could I deny him that?
> 
> As I mentioned before, in order to prevent every thread from turning into a discussion on election, perhaps we should discuss via private messages. I am not opposed to discussing these things in person as well.



I respond according to your tidbits that you throw out there. I don't care to continue anything about the elect. As long as you don't refer to it by saying stuff like God will save ALL His people, or snipits of verses that back your stance on that, then I won't respond accordingly. Just say what you mean and quit talking in 'elect' riddles, maybe everyone doesn't catch it, but I do. My son in law does the same thing. Y'all must all use the same quips and quotes.

And I'm not telling you what to post, I'm not sayin' it in that kind of way. We should all be allowed to speak what we feel, or at least most of what we feel..lol....I'm just saying as long as it's presented I'll address it.

Besides I enjoy conversing with you, I'm just trying to keep the playing field level, for those who are searching and seeking answers that never post or ask questions....it makes all of us seek answers and study more.

And as far as my son in law goes, we haven't discussed anything with him regarding the elect since way before the thread got closed.  So he has plenty of peace. He tries to throw out snipits to start it up, but my daughter and I ignore him....lol. Because he becomes so overbearing we never even get to talk, but he does that on everything, so we avoid it. He's saved so it's all good.  He was on this other kick to where if you pray for forgiveness you're puttin' Jesus back on the cross.....Huh? ok. I still pray the Lord's prayer I don't care what he says......lol.

So as far as our debates/chats here it's all been good for me.

  You are my brother in Christ and I love you!


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## mtnwoman (May 20, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Why do you suppose that "he must needs go through Samaria?" (John 4:4)



I don't know.....tell me...would you?

I understand the entire scripture but that snipit I just can't get that much out of it. But I'd be interested in learning.


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## Huntervationist (May 21, 2012)

Grace is/was  indeed offered to all, but all are not going to accept it, some will refuse, some will hear, and believe, but then it will wither away, but some will hear, believe and the spirit will grow and flourish in them....with each it will be a matter of choice, freewill....yet God knew your choosing before you were born.


for the op.... "What is the proper use of grace?"  acceptance.


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## gemcgrew (May 21, 2012)

It was Grace that entered me into the darkest times of my life. It was Grace that sustained me in those times, even though I did not see it and rejected it. It was Grace that revealed the Grace upon the exit of the darkness. Grace must surely reign.


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## CollinsCraft77 (May 21, 2012)

Gemcgrew, I see why you hit me up. You need a friend on here. Lol!

If grace is undeserved merit, then why do you get it by making a choice? Then it becomes deserved merit. But your saying it's undeserved yet only those who make the right choice deserve it.


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## gemcgrew (May 21, 2012)

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Gemcgrew, I see why you hit me up. You need a friend on here. Lol!
> 
> If grace is undeserved merit, then why do you get it by making a choice? Then it becomes deserved merit. But your saying it's undeserved yet only those who make the right choice deserve it.



Ha! I sent you a PM for the foot washing thread. I did not want to misrepresent the Primitive Baptist.


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## CollinsCraft77 (May 21, 2012)

I know but your all alone here. Correct yes. But all alone.


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## Ronnie T (May 21, 2012)

Yall be careful and don't make God's grace more complicated than it needs to be.

I guess about the greatest manifestations of God's grace is Calvary Cross.  The death of Jesus Christ must surely be the greatest giving of grace by God.  Yet that grace ultimately is only for those who will come to believe in the resurrection of Jesus.  And His Lordship.

Don't you think that grace equals love?


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## Israel (May 22, 2012)

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Gemcgrew, I see why you hit me up. You need a friend on here. Lol!
> 
> If grace is undeserved merit, then why do you get it by making a choice? Then it becomes deserved merit. But your saying it's undeserved yet only those who make the right choice deserve it.


Grace is what got me to even see Jesus at all.
Grace is what lets me not find my keys when they are right in front of me...and then helps me see, once I "see" them, I see nothing at all unless someone else lets me.


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## CollinsCraft77 (May 22, 2012)

Ronnie, you and I have argued this similarly before and I am by no means looking to rehash any of that but when it comes to grace and making it complicated, you have added the extra step. Not you but that doctrine.

Israel, grace did indeed get you to see. Funny how some others never will. Grace is irresistible.  Irresistible.


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## Huntervationist (May 22, 2012)

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Gemcgrew, I see why you hit me up. You need a friend on here. Lol!
> 
> If grace is undeserved merit, then why do you get it by making a choice? Then it becomes deserved merit. But your saying it's undeserved yet only those who make the right choice deserve it.


...can you point to anyone's  who has ever lived, who's works DESERVED Christs sacrifice?  My friend, you can not work your way into being saved, only acceptance of Christ, and faith. To attempt such works, is to belittle the perfect work of Christ.  Further, if works could get you saved, there would have been no need for Christ's sacrifice...

and yes....some will believe, and some will not...the choice is yours...but in the end, all will believe.






2 Corinthians 12:9 

_he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me._


John 11:25-26

_25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”_

I believe his words, I rest in his covenant, and do not add where he has not added.

 the whole of the text if you feel i may have taken it out of context

and  John 11:25-26


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## gemcgrew (May 22, 2012)

I often think of the malefactors on the cross. Both of these men were guilty and condemned. Both were railing and mocking Christ. They both were physically seeing and hearing the same thing as it took place. Both were near the Savior.

What was the sudden change of one? He stopped his cursing and cried out for mercy, “Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy kingdom.” Jesus gave him life and faith by the power of His grace. This man was snatched from the very edge of He11 and taken to Heaven. One was taken, the other left.

What a divine appointment for this man. It could not have happened at a better time. That is Grace.


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## JB0704 (May 22, 2012)

CollinsCraft77 said:


> I know but your all alone here. Correct yes. But all alone.



Well, no, he's got you.......


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## CollinsCraft77 (May 22, 2012)

Hunter,

Dude, I put no stock I works not free will. I'm a predestinatarian and believe in election and the finished work of Jesus Christ. 

Grace is freely bestowed. Not earned. And if you make a choice, even one simple choice, then it becomes earned, not free. Sorry. There is no middle ground. And if some want to believe that they chose, ok. I'm good with that. However, I believe he chose and your faith is the product. You can't believe Christ is who he is without faith correct? We all agree on that. The question and the core of any argument or discussion is this.....

How did you get the faith to begin with?

If you believe man has always had the power to believe, ok.

I choose to believe he didn't. Faith is the FRUIT of the SPIRIT. So one must have the spirit in order to exercise the faith. But according to free will, he has to exercise that faith in order to gain the spirit. Basically you eat the apple and then you get the tree. Whereas I see you need a tree to produce the apple.

And how do you get the tree? Grace


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## JB0704 (May 22, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> What was the sudden change of one? He stopped his cursing and cried out for mercy, “Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy kingdom.” Jesus gave him life and faith by the power of His grace. This man was snatched from the very edge of He11 and taken to Heaven. One was taken, the other left.



Perhaps the man had a change of heart?  We would both agree on that, just disagree on why.



> John 4:7-18 (NIV)
> 
> 7 When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, "Will you give me a drink?" 8 (His disciples had gone into the town to buy food.) 9 The Samaritan woman said to him, "You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?" (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans. ) 10 Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water." 11 "Sir," the woman said, "you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? 12 Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his flocks and herds?" 13 Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14 but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life." 15 The woman said to him, "Sir, give me this water so that I won't get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water." 16 He told her, "Go, call your husband and come back." 17 "I have no husband," she replied. Jesus said to her, "You are right when you say you have no husband. 18 The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true."



There is a whole bunch of stuff going on in the above verse, but I highlighted the part pertinent to the conversation.  Grace is given to anyone who asks for it.


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## gemcgrew (May 22, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> There is a whole bunch of stuff going on in the above verse, but I highlighted the part pertinent to the conversation.  Grace is given to anyone who asks for it.



It is Grace that makes one thirsty and it is Grace that quenches that thirst. We could start another thread on those verses. As you said, there is much there.


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## JB0704 (May 22, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> We could start another thread on those verses. As you said, there is much there.



The first thread I ever started on this forum was about those verses.  It got a bit heated, but remained respectful.  I deleted it when folks started taking shots several days after the discussion was over.


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## Ronnie T (May 22, 2012)

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Ronnie, you and I have argued this similarly before and I am by no means looking to rehash any of that but when it comes to grace and making it complicated, you have added the extra step. Not you but that doctrine.
> 
> Israel, grace did indeed get you to see. Funny how some others never will. Grace is irresistible.  Irresistible.



I don't even remember. LOL.  I'm getting old.


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## pstrahin (May 22, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> The first thread I ever started on this forum was about those verses.  It got a bit heated, but remained respectful.  I deleted it when folks started taking shots several days after the discussion was over.



And what I don't understand is why it has to get heated.  When we have a discussion about our God and salvation that gets heated, in my mind it refutes the genuine love that is inherent in a true child of God.


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## JB0704 (May 22, 2012)

pstrahin said:


> And what I don't understand is why it has to get heated.  When we have a discussion about our God and salvation that gets heated, in my mind it refutes the genuine love that is inherent in a true child of God.



When folks think they are defending God against false teaching, etc. they tend to get upset.  Unfortunately, when it comes to belief, EVERYTHING that does not line up with one's view of scripture can be construed as false teaching.  The conversation I mentioned was over whether or not gay folks should be allowed to help out in church in light of the fact that the woman at the well was living in sin, but asked to serve Jesus....a bit of a touchy subject, for sure.


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## pstrahin (May 22, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> When folks think they are defending God against false teaching, etc. they tend to get upset.  Unfortunately, when it comes to belief, EVERYTHING that does not line up with one's view of scripture can be construed as false teaching.  The conversation I mentioned was over whether or not gay folks should be allowed to help out in church in light of the fact that the woman at the well was living in sin, but asked to serve Jesus....a bit of a touchy subject, for sure.



I understand.


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## gemcgrew (May 22, 2012)

pstrahin said:


> And what I don't understand is why it has to get heated.  When we have a discussion about our God and salvation that gets heated, in my mind it refutes the genuine love that is inherent in a true child of God.



I understand what you are saying, but we dare not say that when Christ was displaying wrath and judgement (Matt 21:12), that he lacked genuine love.

There is a difference in defending Truth out of love and concern for others, than defending Truth out of pride or selfish reasons.


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## Ronnie T (May 22, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> I understand what you are saying, but we dare not say that when Christ was displaying wrath and judgement (Matt 21:12), that he lacked genuine love.
> 
> There is a difference in defending Truth out of love and concern for others, than defending Truth out of pride or selfish reasons.



True.
The people that Jesus most displayed His wrath and judgement against were the rather large headed religious people who thought they had all the answers, thereby finding fault with everyone else.


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## pstrahin (May 22, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> I understand what you are saying, but we dare not say that when Christ was displaying wrath and judgement (Matt 21:12), that he lacked genuine love.
> 
> There is a difference in *defending Truth out of love and concern for others, than defending Truth out of pride or selfish reasons*.



To me, this is the key.


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## Huntervationist (May 22, 2012)

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Hunter,
> 
> Dude, I put no stock I works not free will. I'm a predestinatarian and believe in election and the finished work of Jesus Christ.
> 
> ...



First...as I understand Christs teachings...we are brothers, you and I in Christ, your belief in Christ, and grace means we will one day be neighbors.....and I hope its real close to Gods favorite trout stream!!!!!

I actually see your point, and have had a version of this discussion with my son on several occasions.
I have no real answer to this, except that I believe that man has always indeed known God in his heart, ALL MEN. I believe we were all made for fellowship with God. To me, it is evidenced across the spectrum of civilizations, around the globe, and across time......... mans search to know GOD.
 Beyond that, the concept of all knowing is far outside my reach....If he knew before the first star, each decision made by each of us, and the outcome was set then, or if at each decision he see's the outcome unfold before him, life.......... so ever changing that only God could grasp it complexity....I don't know, But then there are many things that I don't know, but have no bearing on our salvation....again, I was just glad to read the most important truths you typed. How we each got to the right answer, is not important, that we got there is!!!


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## hawglips (Aug 8, 2012)

Grace is undeserved mercy and forgiveness. 



> ...can you point to anyone's who has ever lived, who's works DESERVED Christs sacrifice? My friend, you can not work your way into being saved, only acceptance of Christ, and faith. To attempt such works, is to belittle the perfect work of Christ. Further, if works could get you saved, there would have been no need for Christ's sacrifice...



In Matt. 7:21 Christ made it clear that not every one that saith unto him Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he that _doeth_ the will of our Father in heaven.


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## **k9** (Jun 9, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Grace, itself, is not for us to use.  God gives to us through his grace.
> 
> God gives us many thing through His grace, and we're able to use them.
> 1.  Our moment of salvation was through grace.
> ...



Hello Ronnie,

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Grace my help in a time of need.


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## Israel (Jun 11, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> It is Grace that makes one thirsty and it is Grace that quenches that thirst. We could start another thread on those verses. As you said, there is much there.


amen.

grace may even allow me to ask.."why do I bump into so many "blind" people...?
So I can hear an answer I could never receive...without grace...


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