# Why No Music?



## hobbs27 (Jul 26, 2013)

Why are some denominations against music in the Church? I visited my inlaws primitive baptist church in south georgia a few times and at first I thought they just couldnt afford a piano....but later on we went to a funeral in which the family members had someone sing at the piano....Never saw a baptist preacher grimace and grunt so much, you would have thought someone got the last piece of fried chicken before he even fixed his plate....When the lady was done with her beautiful song the preacher came on and made a negative remark about the little didley as he called it...
 What gives? Where's the scripture for this belief? especially considering the last psalm.

150 Praise ye the Lord. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.

2 Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.

3 Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.

4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.

5 Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.

6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the Lord. Praise ye the Lord.


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## gemcgrew (Jul 26, 2013)

We can find no biblical precedent for the usage of musical instruments in New Testament worship. The scriptures give repeated instructions to sing in the church, but never to play (Rom 15:9, I Cor 14:15, Eph 5:19, Col 3:16, Heb 2:12, Ja 5:13).

It will occasionally be objected that there are also many other things in all modern churches which are without scriptural precedent - things such as electric lights, air conditioners, etc; however, these items affect only the setting of worship and are not integral to it. The scriptures have clearly afforded much liberty in such matters (Lk 5:3, Jn 4:20-24, Acts 20:7-8, Acts 21:5). A distinction must also be made between an addition to the New Testament pattern and an aid to this pattern. Electric lights, song books, reference Bibles, etc. are aids to worship, but musical instruments are additions to worship.

For a discussion about the importance of adhering to scriptural example, we refer the reader to the question regarding scriptural precedent.

It is commonly objected that Psalm 150 offers instruction to praise the Lord with various kinds of musical instruments. However, these instructions are not referring to New Testament worship. Procedure used in Old Testament worship obviously cannot be used to amend the New Testament pattern; otherwise, animal sacrifices, priests, etc. could be legitimately introduced to the church. It should be observed that Psalm 150 also commands to praise the Lord with dance (Ps 150:4), yet those who use the Psalm to defend musical instruments would generally condemn dancing in the church. 

http://www.pb.org/pbfaq.html#Musical_Instruments


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## hobbs27 (Jul 26, 2013)

Thats interesting...kind of odd to me, only because there's so few churchs' like this in north ga.  How many other denominations practice this, does anyone know? 

 Personally I believe God would approve of a whistle being blown if it was done in praise of Him.


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## hummerpoo (Jul 26, 2013)

Church of Christ adheres to the same, at least to ones I'm fimiliar with.

Oh, and not all Primitive Baptist hold to the no instruments, but I think we have some PB here who might speak to that better.


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## gemcgrew (Jul 26, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Thats interesting...kind of odd to me, only because there's so few churchs' like this in north ga.  How many other denominations practice this, does anyone know?


Some Church of Christ. I am unaware of others.



hobbs27 said:


> Personally I believe God would approve of a whistle being blown if it was done in praise of Him.


When I was a young boy, I was determined to learn how to whistle as loud as my dad. It all came together for me in the middle of Sunday service. What a beautiful sound as it echoed throughout the sanctuary. Sadly, I was the only one that appreciated it.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 26, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Some Church of Christ. I am unaware of others.
> 
> 
> When I was a young boy, I was determined to learn how to whistle as loud as my dad. It all came together for me in the middle of Sunday service. What a beautiful sound as it echoed throughout the sanctuary. Sadly, I was the only one that appreciated it.


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## hummerpoo (Jul 26, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Some Church of Christ. I am unaware of others.
> 
> 
> When I was a young boy, I was determined to learn how to whistle as loud as my dad. It all came together for me in the middle of Sunday service. What a beautiful sound as it echoed throughout the sanctuary. Sadly, I was the only one that appreciated it.



I can almost here it in my imagination, would loved to have been there!


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## centerpin fan (Jul 26, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> How many other denominations practice this, does anyone know?



Orthodox Church is a cappella.


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## Ronnie T (Jul 26, 2013)

A historical search will reveal that the 1st century church did not use instruments.  They specifically excluded them, even though they had been use in and around Jewish worship of God.

One of the greatest and most vocal battles, yes battle, in Christ's church was over the bringing of musical instruments into worship.  That battle began in the 4th and 5th century I believe.

There was a time when musical instruments were not allowed in any denominational churches, including all Baptists and all Methodist churches.

Some believe the following verse, and verses like it, is one of the reason's the early church didn't use musical instruments.

John 4:20–24 
20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.” 
21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” 

1. OT music
         a. Performed by a professional choir
         b. Accompanied with various mechanical instruments
         c. EMPHASIS: How it sounds to the human ear (appealing to the PHYSICAL side of man)
2. NT music
         a. Sung by all in the congregation ("speaking to one another
            in psalms...")
         b. The melody to be made in the HEART, not on the HARP
         c. EMPHASIS: How it affects the soul (the SPIRITUAL side of
            man)


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## Ronnie T (Jul 26, 2013)

THE VOICE OF VARIOUS RELIGIOUS SOURCES...

      1. CATHOLIC - "... the first Christians were of too spiritual a
         fibre to substitute lifeless instruments for or to use them to
         accompany the human voice." -- CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

      2. GREEK ORTHODOX - "The execution of Byzantine church music by
         instruments, or even the accompaniment of sacred chanting by
         instruments was ruled out by the Eastern Fathers as being
         incompatible with the pure, solemn, spiritual character of the
         religion of Christ." -- Constantine Cavarnos, BYSANTINE SACRED
         MUSIC

      3. PRESBYTERIAN - "Musical instruments in celebrating the praises
         of God would be no more suitable than the burning of incense,
         the lighting up of lamps, the restoration of the other shadows
         of the law.  The Papists, therefore, have foolishly borrowed
         this, as well as many other things, from the Jews.  Men who
         are fond of outward pomp may delight in that noise; but the
         simplicity which God recommends to us by the apostle is far
         more pleasing to Him." - JOHN CALVIN, Commentary on the Book
         of Psalms, Vol. I, p. 539

      4. METHODIST - "I have no objection to instruments of music, in
         our chapels, provided they are neither heard nor seen." - JOHN
         WESLEY (founder)

      5. METHODIST - "Music as a science, I esteem and admire: but
         instruments of music in the house of God I abominate and
         abhor. This is the abuse of music; and here I register my
         protest against all such corruptions in the worship of the
         Author of Christianity." - ADAM CLARKE (commentator)

      6. LUTHERAN - "Martin Luther called the organ an 'ensign of
         Baal'." - MCCLINTOCK & STRONG'S ENCYCLOPEDIA

      7. BAPTIST - "I would as soon attempt to pray to God with
         machinery as to sing to Him with machinery." - CHARLES H.
         SPURGEON


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## hobbs27 (Jul 27, 2013)

I truly appreciate the good information everyone is giving. I wonder about this...could it be they didn't worship with music because Christianity was outlawed until 313 ad in the Roman Empire...and Christians met in secret till that time? That would be long enough for man to become stubborn about his own tradition.

 I wonder this since there is no blatant reference to not worship in music in the NT.


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## Havana Dude (Jul 27, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> When I was a young boy, I was determined to learn how to whistle as loud as my dad. It all came together for me in the middle of Sunday service. What a beautiful sound as it echoed throughout the sanctuary. Sadly, I was the only one that appreciated it.



LOL


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## Israel (Jul 27, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Some Church of Christ. I am unaware of others.
> 
> 
> When I was a young boy, I was determined to learn how to whistle as loud as my dad. It all came together for me in the middle of Sunday service. What a beautiful sound as it echoed throughout the sanctuary. Sadly, I was the only one that appreciated it.



I have to seriously wonder if you were the only one.

Wouldn't it be strange to discover...some day soon, that when all the "things" we have done may be brought out for review (if indeed they ever are...and that for me is a big IF)

And when the lines are drawn...and the Lord may say "Now lets see all the things you have done in service to me..." and then rolls THAT tape...there's no preaching, no contending for the faith, no arguing for the correct "meaning" of scripture...just things like a boy whistling...and we say 
"But Lord...all I did there was discover something that lit me up with JOY...I couldn't help it..."

And the Lord says...Oh, yes...I just love those parts myself...you have no idea how often I revisit them...thanks.

He _might_ even say, ya ever wonder why our Father made sure the truth of the resurrection got to you and many others?

Here, watch my face in this part where I step outta that tomb into a new day. Dad says it's always his favorite...

Oh...is that what "serve the Lord with gladness means"? I used to think it meant put on a happy face while you did all the stuff you had to do...but didn't really wanna...


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## Ronnie T (Jul 27, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> I truly appreciate the good information everyone is giving. I wonder about this...could it be they didn't worship with music because Christianity was outlawed until 313 ad in the Roman Empire...and Christians met in secret till that time? That would be long enough for man to become stubborn about his own tradition.
> 
> I wonder this since there is no blatant reference to not worship in music in the NT.



If you want to experience it, ask your music director to go 'instrumentless' one Lord's day.  You'll see.
.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 27, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> If you want to experience it, ask your music director to go 'instrumentless' one Lord's day.  You'll see.
> .



Ive experienced it before. In the primitive baptist church in south georgia, also there are some songs we would stop the music to at the church Im a member of. Usually Amazing Grace or a song we did I just know by "Jesus", it wasnt in the song book.

 I have no problem with folks that don't like the music, Im really curious as to why...and really wonder if the first Christians didn't just refrain from music because they met in secret hiding places.


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## JB0704 (Jul 27, 2013)

Personally, after reading the scriptures provided, I remain unconvinced.  I don't see the issue with it if it is done "unto the Lord."  

However, if I had a preference, there would be no music in church.  Not for Biblical reasons.....I just don't like it.  IF anything, old hymns (I am fascinated with the spiritual place a person must have been in to write "It is well" and others like it)......but, that's just not cool enough these days.

And that ^^^^is just my opinion based on nothing but my preference.


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## Israel (Jul 27, 2013)

maybe if when the whole church comes together...one "may" have a hymn, a psalm, an exhortation, a prophecy...and maybe we...could let go of a little structure...to lay hold of a little substance?
maybe everything can be done decently and in order? and not according to a formula?


and all the congregation said:

















we ain't yer echo chamber.


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## Ronnie T (Jul 27, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Personally, after reading the scriptures provided, I remain unconvinced.  I don't see the issue with it if it is done "unto the Lord."
> 
> However, if I had a preference, there would be no music in church.  Not for Biblical reasons.....I just don't like it.  IF anything, old hymns (I am fascinated with the spiritual place a person must have been in to write "It is well" and others like it)......but, that's just not cool enough these days.
> 
> And that ^^^^is just my opinion based on nothing but my preference.



It's quite a story.  I'll see if I can find it.


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## Ronnie T (Jul 27, 2013)

"It is Well With My Soul"

The full, amazing story.

http://us.yhs4.search.yahoo.com/r/_...-g-spafford-story-behind-hymn-is-1620793.html


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## hummerpoo (Jul 27, 2013)

Somewhat related is the "Psalms only" position of some.

http://www.fpchurch.org.uk/beliefs/PsalmsOnly.php

I do not recall having been to a church that sang the Psalms, let alone only the Psalms.


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## hummerpoo (Jul 27, 2013)




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## gordon 2 (Jul 27, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> A historical search will reveal that the 1st century church did not use instruments.  They specifically excluded them, even though they had been use in and around Jewish worship of God.
> 
> One of the greatest and most vocal battles, yes battle, in Christ's church was over the bringing of musical instruments into worship.  That battle began in the 4th and 5th century I believe.
> 
> ...



OT? Old Time music?


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## Bama4me (Jul 27, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Personally, after reading the scriptures provided, I remain unconvinced.  I don't see the issue with it if it is done "unto the Lord."



Got to be real careful with this statement right here... the people Jesus referred to in Matthew 7:21-23 we doing things "for the Lord", yet were condemned.

Question about your consistency on reading Scriptures like Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16, etc.  Would you agree a person could use something other than fruit of the vine and unleavened bread for communion?


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## JB0704 (Jul 27, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> Got to be real careful with this statement right here... the people Jesus referred to in Matthew 7:21-23 we doing things "for the Lord", yet were condemned.



I understand what you are saying, but I also know that David played his harp for the Lord.  That label does get abused, and I have certainly seen the music part of Church become self-gratifying entertainment......but, I can also understand that some folks' hearts might be in the right place.  Like the bell choirs in Presbyterian churches.



Bama4me said:


> Question about your consistency on reading Scriptures like Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16, etc.  Would you agree a person could use something other than fruit of the vine and unleavened bread for communion?



Let me read the scripture and context, and I'll post my thoughts tonight or in the morning.....I am trying very hard not to have knee-jerk responses where scripture is concerned.


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## panfried0419 (Jul 28, 2013)

I go to a contemporary Wesleyan church. And we definitely got music!


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## Israel (Jul 28, 2013)

I don't quite get it...unto the Lord is unto the Lord.
I am convinced the whole point of Matthew 7:21 is that what we "say" is unto the Lord...does not make it so.
In fact there's a reason we say so many things are "for the Lord"...precisely because they are not.

I mean, really, how does one imagine they could convince others of their nobility in any greater measure than by declaring "I do this for the God of the universe!"

It is not what is declared. It is what is done.

Of course we could really get into the deep mud if we start considering that the sheep on the "right" didn't even give a thought that they were doing anything for the Lord.

Makes christian "efforts" kinda laughable...doesn't it?
Almost could make one wonder if the "professed" christian...that really isn't...could learn something from the professed atheist...that really isn't, when he can't deny he has seen compassion flowing from him.

Could be the walls of our clubhouse are a bit more rotten than we imagine.

I feel a song coming on.


Well, we all have "daddy issues" so go grab that box of tissues,
cause we may not see the way things really are,
We come kicking we come screaming
as a place rejects our schemings,
and that last duck just won't fall into the row.

Hopping over Eden's back gate,
we think clever cause we're not late, (that's late...as in dead...you know..."late")
and we slipped that touch of Angel's flaming blade
but torn britches soon betray us
all's not perfect yet it's clear
and so we sew and sew and sew
and so we sew.

Our garment's almost ready
as we try to do Fosbury, (please Google Fosbury flop if you don't "get it")
but that just leaves with our hineys hanging out
for the fence just seems to heighten
and our weights we cannot lighten
and snagged again our buttocks always shows.

Is this a poem or a song?
but guess either and you're wrong
but no wronger than all others ever been,
there's a tree will get you over
go on up it and discover
getting over's not the way (please ascribe to "getting over" ...well, you know what it means to "get over" on others)
that this is done.

Cause there are many on its limbs
friends with faces holy grins
they've made a tree house that is waiting there for you (and me, too)
they just climbed because they saw
a gaze that filled them full of awe,
a dead man laughing who had always bid them come.


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## JB0704 (Jul 28, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> Question about your consistency on reading Scriptures like Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16, etc.  Would you agree a person could use something other than fruit of the vine and unleavened bread for communion?



Bama, I have read a good bit on communion this evening, and it seems the traditional use of unleavened bread is because that's what Jesus used.  I do not see a specific example indicating that is what it must be in contemporary settings.  In fact, later reading in the NT seems to reference a meal almost.....though symbolic, some folks were hungry so they ate before everybody got a chance to do it.

From what I understand, the type of bread can be symbolic.  I also have read that many denominations will see it differently.  For these reasons, my quick reaction to the question is that as long as the communion is taken in light of 1 Corinthians 11, it fills the mandate.

So, for now, my answer is no, it is not mandatory that the bread be unleavened.  I am not 100% of what I think relevant to the drink part, aside from the symbolism of the act.  Some churches drink cranberry juice, some drink grape juice, some drink Red wine    Any insight on that is appreciated.

I am not sure if that is consistent, but, in light of Ephesians 5:19, I am not sure that verse was intended to speak lyrically to each other, but in the spirit of the Psalms.....as far as colossians 3:16.....that verse makes me feel guilty for my earlier post about personal preference


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## JB0704 (Jul 28, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> "It is Well With My Soul"
> 
> The full, amazing story.
> 
> http://us.yhs4.search.yahoo.com/r/_...-g-spafford-story-behind-hymn-is-1620793.html



Absolutely amazing story.  And, it is that background which I find fascinating.  How intense a person's faith has to be to withstand such trauma, and proclaim such faith in such a way.  It makes some of the modern efforts at spiritual music for profit seem so "cheap."


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## Bama4me (Jul 28, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Bama, I have read a good bit on communion this evening, and it seems the traditional use of unleavened bread is because that's what Jesus used.  I do not see a specific example indicating that is what it must be in contemporary settings.  In fact, later reading in the NT seems to reference a meal almost.....though symbolic, some folks were hungry so they ate before everybody got a chance to do it.
> 
> From what I understand, the type of bread can be symbolic.  I also have read that many denominations will see it differently.  For these reasons, my quick reaction to the question is that as long as the communion is taken in light of 1 Corinthians 11, it fills the mandate.
> 
> ...



Ok... let me try another angle. Do you agree that Jesus authorized homosexual marriage in Matthew 19:3-9?


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## Ronnie T (Jul 28, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Absolutely amazing story.  And, it is that background which I find fascinating.  How intense a person's faith has to be to withstand such trauma, and proclaim such faith in such a way.  It makes some of the modern efforts at spiritual music for profit seem so "cheap."



I know exactly what you're saying.
Almost adulterous.


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## Ronnie T (Jul 28, 2013)

I like this.


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## JB0704 (Jul 28, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> Ok... let me try another angle. Do you agree that Jesus authorized homosexual marriage in Matthew 19:3-9?



No.  I do not.


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## Bama4me (Jul 29, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> No.  I do not.



Why not?


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## JB0704 (Jul 29, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> Why not?





> *Mathew 19:3* Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?" 4 "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' 5 and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh' ? 6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." 7 "Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?" 8 Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." 10 The disciples said to him, "If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry." 11 Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."



There is no reference to such in that scripture.  Additionally, there is a clear prohibition on the act itself in both the old and New Testament.  Given that fact, it would be impossible to read such a qualifier in the above scripture without a serious bending of intent.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jul 29, 2013)

I am certain that the only one gaining from the constant arguments between different denominations on how to worship, when and where etc. etc. etc. is satan.


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## formula1 (Jul 29, 2013)

*Re:*

Personally,  I don't go to churches without music and instruments of all kinds.  It's what I enjoy and helps to lead me into an attitude of worship of my Father in Heaven. That would be the goal of music don't you think. And I personally aspire to the whole word of God, including Psalms 150.

But the life I live in the flesh is still by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me!  That is the perspective that matters!


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## Israel (Jul 29, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> I like this.



!!!yes!!!

When Jesus becomes something other than grist for the mill...and we discover! ahhh oh...that's it...I am the grist for your mill!  


Bread got broke. Broke down into pieces so small even the tiniest chick could eat it...and in the eating the chick found life.
And so the chick goes out and tells others of this life..."it's good...it's really good"...you must have it.
And the WITNESS of all...the HEARER of all...the SPEAKER of WORD stands.

And while this chick raises its voice to be heard, finds a platform to assist, fabricates very clever "songs" (and God forbid...may even "sell" them) ascends stages...all to _help_ in the spreading of the word, the doing of the work, the being of a good disciple, the telling of others just how much they love the Lord...the HEARER stands. The WITNESS stands.

(BRB, I have to tune my guitar for a _performance _of "I'm Coming Back to the Heart of Worship")


OK...back.


But it's all good. While we go, and tell, and tell how good the life is, how lovely and fitting it was for the One to die for the many...the WITNESS, who is also the MOVER of all the BEGINNER of all, the END of all...and we find a crushing. The wheel within a wheel is descending upon us...
Oh, but you said it is good for the one to die for the many.
You said, you loved me. (in front of me and many other witnesses)

This is where I am going...with you...to the "good" you spoke of. Where a big whole LOAF...is crushed...for others. You do believe it is "good" do you not?"

We are maneuvered by our own WORD. 
Did you trick me Lord? 
Or did you tell me the truth...and for a time you let me "use" it...but so eventually...I could be "used...fittingly"?

We can wonder ...if we care to...why the "cock crowing" was to be a sign to a certain one who boasted of his love of the Lord.
And while we, mistakenly perhaps, think he was exclusive to this...and find a million sermons to structure upon _this _ man's "failings..."...and we begin to see ourselves...eventually...we may even have our eyes opened to

 Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. Likewise also said all the disciples. 


Oh...we are all given to know what is good? To abide?
But to do it...we have no power?

And so the abiding one comes to all who cannot. But who know it is right. And perhaps, there their song changes.

Oh, how Jesus loves me , Oh, how Jesus loves me, Oh how Jesus loves...


Paul, our brother, put it a remarkable way after lengthy letters, after responses to myriad questions...the addressing of a thousand "problems" and seeming failings.


Henceforth let no man trouble me, for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord's ownership.


He knew where all the questions came from...all the doubts...all the reasonings...even seeming "boasts"...and he also knew where they led...for each who would love the Lord. 

It is enough.

Many songs are coming. Even "new" ones.


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## Bama4me (Jul 29, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> There is no reference to such in that scripture.



What you're saying is that when Jesus specified in this passage that marriage is for a man and woman, that excludes a man and man... or a woman and a woman?


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## JB0704 (Jul 29, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> What you're saying is that when Jesus specified in this passage that marriage is for a man and woman, that excludes a man and man... or a woman and a woman?



In addition to the other scriptures which prohibit such relationships, yes.  If the entire work is our context, I don't believe there is much wiggle room for interpretation there.


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## Bama4me (Jul 29, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> In addition to the other scriptures which prohibit such relationships, yes.  If the entire work is our context, I don't believe there is much wiggle room for interpretation there.



Awesome... correct way to interpret the passage.  What you've done is to utilize the interpretation of "specificity".  Though "fancy sounding", it's rather simple.  When God has "specified" something (tells us something specific to do), that specific command excludes everything else.

We utilize this principle all the time in our lives.  An example is when a parent tells a child, "play in the yard".  If he/she catches the child playing in the street, the excuse of "you didn't tell me NOT to play in the street" won't be accepted (if he/she is sticking to his/her words).  If our boss tells us to be at a meeting at 9 am and we show up at 10, he/she won't accept the excuse of "you didn't tell me not to come at 10".  The principle of specificity... when something has been "specified", everything else is excluded.  

In the text we've used as an example, Jesus didn't have to say "it's wrong for a person to marry someone of the same gender"... "it's wrong for a person to marry an animal".  Because He specified "male and female" and "man and wife", He limited the arrangement of marriage to one man and one woman.  And, as you have correctly observed, if nothing else in NT Scripture states otherwise, that teaching will "hold water."

I take you through that line of reasoning because it's the same principle utilized by those who believe instrumental music in worship to God is not authorized.  NT Scripture, in places like Ephesians 5:19/Colossians 3:16/1 Corinthians 14:15/etc., authorize the act of singing praises to God.  Though the OT contained references to "sing and play", you don't find that in the NT... it's consistently "sing".  The only time in the NT you'll observe "singing and playing" in reference to worshipping God is Revelation 5:8 - a highly symbolic passage where literal interpretation seems very unlikely.

What some take away from that study is that God has authorized His children to sing... and sing only.


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## JB0704 (Jul 29, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> Awesome... correct way to interpret the passage.  What you've done is to utilize the interpretation of "specificity".  Though "fancy sounding", it's rather simple.  When God has "specified" something (tells us something specific to do), that specific command excludes everything else.
> 
> We utilize this principle all the time in our lives.  An example is when a parent tells a child, "play in the yard".  If he/she catches the child playing in the street, the excuse of "you didn't tell me NOT to play in the street" won't be accepted (if he/she is sticking to his/her words).  If our boss tells us to be at a meeting at 9 am and we show up at 10, he/she won't accept the excuse of "you didn't tell me not to come at 10".  The principle of specificity... when something has been "specified", everything else is excluded.
> 
> ...



I follow you now.  Good points.  I guess my hesitation in applying this to instruments would be that there are examples where people do play them for God in the Bible, such as David.  In the case of homosexuality, there is a clear case against such acts.  I struggle with applying the same concept to both. But, as stated previously, whether I think it is right or wrong is irrelevant to me personally, as the music part of any service is always my least favorite, I guess because I never translated it appropriately to worship, that is a personal flaw.   

As is the case with anything in church, it can become a "show."  This happens with music, preaching, prayer, service, etc.  Anything is vulnerable to be used for personal intent.  It is not limited to music.  I have sat through many self-gratifying prayers, as well as many pride-filled sermons....and, yes, I have been guilty of this myself.

I have said this before, but I was in a contemporary Christian band which played for a few local churches on Sunday mornings as well as youth group meetings etc.  For a long time, I thought I was doing some good work......until it finally occured to me that I was playing for myself, and most of the music I played made absolutely no sense.  Even though I was the "poster child" for contemporary church (even wore t-shirts and bandanas because I had "freedom"  ), it was that point that I started re-visiting the old hymns in private, and recognizing, or assuming, the purity of the spirit used to write them.  The contrast between that and what I had spent several years playing was dramatic.  One genre was created for praise, the other, in many circumstances, has a profit motive.  

Nowadays, when I pick up my guitar, contemporary Christian music is never played.....it makes my stomach turn to think about what an idiot I was, acting as if I had been doing such a wonderful thing for God, when in fact, I was just using church as a platform for self-gratification. 

So.....I can see the point of elliminating instruments as a protective measure against pride as well as keeping focus where it belongs, just not as a mandate.  And, the reality is that even in those churches where there are no instruments, somebody is probably complimented for their musical ability.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 29, 2013)

Just curious what are some other instructions or non-instructions from Jesus or God on Church service precedures? Is incense or ringing the cow bell for Sunday School Biblical? What about the Benediction or Benediction incense?
What about an "altar call" at the end of the sermon for the opportunity for people to publicly declare their decision to follow Christ? Maybe the altar call would be OK if they didn't play mood-creating music in the background.


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## Bama4me (Jul 29, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I follow you now.  Good points.  I guess my hesitation in applying this to instruments would be that there are examples where people do play them for God in the Bible, such as David.



I think those opposed to instrumental music in worship to God lean upon the fact that the references in Scripture are in the Old Testament... and people now live under the authority of Christ's law - not the Law of Moses (Colossians 2:14-15, Ephesians 2:14-15, Hebrews 8:6-13).

Though many things continued as "holdovers" from the Law of Moses to Christ's law (i.e. murder is wrong in both eras), God did make some changes.  Examples of this are the Sabbath observance (Sunday being the day of worship in the NT) and the sacrificial system (no longer have to offer burnt offerings, go to Jerusalem three times yearly, etc.).  While people lived under the Law of Moses, you see "singing and playing"... but in the New Testament, you only see "singing" (except in the case of Revelation 5).

If I were to "pick God's mind" as to the reason for this change, I would think a lot of the things you mention in your post would be possibilities.  When people sing and don't do anything else, it seems to be easier to focus on words/sentiments of the song itself - at least for me.  One might wonder if under the Law of Moses, the instruments had become more prominent than God would have liked.  Any way it goes, it's just speculation regarding the "why".


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## hobbs27 (Jul 29, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> I think those opposed to instrumental music in worship to God lean upon the fact that the references in Scripture are in the Old Testament... and people now live under the authority of Christ's law - not the Law of Moses (Colossians 2:14-15, Ephesians 2:14-15, Hebrews 8:6-13).
> 
> Though many things continued as "holdovers" from the Law of Moses to Christ's law (i.e. murder is wrong in both eras), God did make some changes.  Examples of this are the Sabbath observance (Sunday being the day of worship in the NT) and the sacrificial system (no longer have to offer burnt offerings, go to Jerusalem three times yearly, etc.).  While people lived under the Law of Moses, you see "singing and playing"... but in the New Testament, you only see "singing" (except in the case of Revelation 5).
> 
> If I were to "pick God's mind" as to the reason for this change, I would think a lot of the things you mention in your post would be possibilities.  When people sing and don't do anything else, it seems to be easier to focus on words/sentiments of the song itself - at least for me.  One might wonder if under the Law of Moses, the instruments had become more prominent than God would have liked.  Any way it goes, it's just speculation regarding the "why".





Do you know of any reason that it just may have been that Christians met in secret and probably wanted to keep things as quiet as possible? I would like to positively rule this out before I even ponder on another reason.


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## Bama4me (Jul 29, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Just curious what are some other instructions or non-instructions from Jesus or God on Church service precedures. Is incense or ringing the cow bell for Sunday School biblical? What about the Benediction or Benediction incense?



You're asking some really good questions.  Colossians 3:17 says that everything that we do must have the authority of Jesus Christ behind it.  Thus, whatever we do in worship or bible class assemblies must have Christ's approval.

The answer to some of the questions you pose has to do with the distinction between and "aid" and an "addition".  When one utilizes an "aid", it is something which helps one obey a command of God WITHOUT changing the nature of what is being done.  

An example of this can be seen in real life.  If we go to a repair shop and ask them to change our oil, they will use wrenches and a funnel to accomplish the task.  Those things are merely tools which "aid" compliance to our request.  If during that same time, they change the brakes also, that's not an aid... it's an addition.

Biblically, it's easy to see in regards to the Lord's Supper.  Using a container to put the bread in so that it can easily be passed around is not an addition... it's an "aid" which helps the observation of the Lord's Supper.  Spreading peanut butter on the bread to make it more palatable, however, is an "addition" because you're no longer just eating the bread - there's bread AND something else.


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## Bama4me (Jul 29, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Do you know of any reason that it just may have been that Christians met in secret and probably wanted to keep things as quiet as possible? I would like to positively rule this out before I even ponder on another reason.



I would have to see biblical evidence where Christians in the first century met in secret... seems like an assumption to me.  Everything in the New Testament that I see seems to indicate the opposite.  James 2:1ff seems to indicate there would be visitors in Christian assemblies... as does 1 Corinthians 14:23.  Paul, while in Ephesus, conducted assemblies daily in the hall of Tyrannus for two years... to the point that all residents of Asia heard the word of the Lord (Acts 19:9ff).  These are two places where God told Christians to "sing" (Ephesians 5:19, 1 Corinthians 14:15).


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 29, 2013)

I just got through reading a report by Professor of Theology on music in the Bible. He did cover music in Church services, instruments and dancing. He tried to convey what is Biblical without smearing any peanut butter on it.

From the report:
For me it represents a solid month of dedicated research during which I
spent an average of 15 hours a day examining all the relevant biblical material on music.
My overall objective has been to distill from the Bible those basic principles that relate to
the ongoing debate about the use of pop music in the church. The task was bigger than I
imagined because there are over 500 references scattered throughout the Bible about
music, musicians, singing, and musical instruments.

http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/endtimeissues/eti_39.pdf


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## Jeffriesw (Jul 29, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Thats interesting...kind of odd to me, only because there's so few churchs' like this in north ga.  How many other denominations practice this, does anyone know?
> 
> Personally I believe God would approve of a whistle being blown if it was done in praise of Him.



There are a few Reformed Presbyterian & Baptist Denominations that not only do not have instrumentation, but hold to EP (Exclusive Psalmnody) as well.

Here is one such ~~~~> http://reformedpresbyterian.org/convictions

This is from their "convictions" section of their website.
"Worship


We believe that God’s Word clearly sets forth how He is to be worshiped. The reading and exposition of the Word of God are the central focus of our worship. Our musical praise employs God’s Word only, thus making use of the divinely inspired Book of Psalms of the Bible. In keeping with the New Testament Church’s directive for heart worship, we sing without the aid of musical instruments."



Here is a Reformed Baptist view ~~~~> http://www.arbca.com/regulative-principle






I would also commend a few articles for your reading to better understand the RPW (Regulative Principal of Worship) from which a lot of churches get their view of worship.

http://www.westminsterconfession.org/worship/the-scriptural-regulative-principle-of-worship.php

http://www.apuritansmind.com/purita...ship-a-brief-article-by-dr-c-matthew-mcmahon/


But, keep in mind, even within the ranks of those who hold to the RPW (of, which I am one) there is disagreement about what constitutes proper worship and what is only a circunstance of worship. Suck as a building, pews, A/C and such.

The Reformed Presbyterian denomination that I belong to, The PCA (Presbyterian Church in America) http://www.pcanet.org/ holds to the RPW as set forth in the Westminster Confession of Faith, but interprets it different than some others and does NOT hold to no instruments during worship.




Ronnie T said:


> I know exactly what you're saying.
> Almost adulterous.



I have been in a few worship services in aplace or two that sure seemed idolatrous, they seemed to be very man centered at best.


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## Bama4me (Jul 29, 2013)

Swamp Runner said:


> I have been in a few worship services in aplace or two that sure seemed idolatrous, they seemed to be very man centered at best.



That's an extremely good observation.  Many want their worship to be something which creates a "certain feeling" within them... to walk out of a service feeling "on top of the world".  It seems the goal is "a worship experience" - something primarily focused on the worshipper.  Sadly, worship for some has regressed to a show that has a similar feel to professional wrestling - "this week's event has to be bigger and better than last week's event or the same 'high' won't be achieved."

Yet, when I study worship in the NT, the focus is primarily upon God (not man).  Even though Scripture bears out the fact that humans benefit from worship (I.e. Hebrews 10:24-25), Jesus clearly said God should be the object of worship - not man.  If I'm pleased but God is not pleased, I've failed in my attempts to worship.


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## Ronnie T (Jul 29, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I follow you now.  Good points.  I guess my hesitation in applying this to instruments would be that there are examples where people do play them for God in the Bible, such as David.  In the case of homosexuality, there is a clear case against such acts.  I struggle with applying the same concept to both. But, as stated previously, whether I think it is right or wrong is irrelevant to me personally, as the music part of any service is always my least favorite, I guess because I never translated it appropriately to worship, that is a personal flaw.
> 
> As is the case with anything in church, it can become a "show."  This happens with music, preaching, prayer, service, etc.  Anything is vulnerable to be used for personal intent.  It is not limited to music.  I have sat through many self-gratifying prayers, as well as many pride-filled sermons....and, yes, I have been guilty of this myself.
> 
> ...



You're an honest person.  It isn't easy to look at ourselves the way you just did.  I struggle with the flaw at times myself.


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## Ronnie T (Jul 29, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I just got through reading a report by Professor of Theology on music in the Bible. He did cover music in Church services, instruments and dancing. He tried to convey what is Biblical without smearing any peanut butter on it.
> 
> From the report:
> For me it represents a solid month of dedicated research during which I
> ...



I don't know this man or his college but here's his last paragraph.

Conclusion:
No entertainment type of music was allowed in the Temple, synagogue, and early
church. The same should be true in the church today. Those who disagree, and want to
adopt pop music for their church services, they are free to have their own music. But let
those who hold to the authority of Scripture keep to that music that praises God in a way
which is neither sensational nor sensual—a music which reflects the beauty and purity of
God’s character and celebrates His marvelous creative and redemptive accomplishment
for the human family. May the Lord give us the discernment and desire to fill our home and
churches with music that meets His approval, rather than the applause of the world.


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## gordon 2 (Jul 29, 2013)

formula1 said:


> Personally,  I don't go to churches without music and instruments of all kinds.  It's what I enjoy and helps to lead me into an attitude of worship of my Father in Heaven. That would be the goal of music don't you think. And I personally aspire to the whole word of God, including Psalms 150.
> 
> But the life I live in the flesh is still by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me!  That is the perspective that matters!



I have experienced what you say and seen it many times in others. I have often wondered if singing and song does not release hormones( morphine like) from the action of Jaw muscles, or by processing in our inner ear and on to the brain... and therefore this would take away our great and usual concerns of the "world", take away our inibitions, and make our minds, our hearts more accepting of the will of God?

Maybe...

Also I have learned just recently that fragrace is not mediated by areas of the brain before it is processed by the cortex (which is unlike all other senses) but rather the olfactory nurve links directly to the cortex and in the area of the cortex adjacent to the area for emotion. ( This is interesting I think if you have ever experienced fragrance (Rose of Sharon) in others or yourself at a charismatic service service for example...

Anyway gentlemen/ladies continue...


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 29, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> I have experienced what you say and seen it many times in others. I have often wondered if singing and song does not release hormones( morphine like) from the action of Jaw muscles, or by processing in our inner ear and on to the brain... and therefore this would take away our great and usual concerns of the "world", take away our inibitions, and make our minds, our hearts more accepting of the will of God?
> 
> Maybe...
> 
> ...



If music playing during the altar call helped the unsaved person come to Jesus, why is that bad or any different from a person's witness or a preacher's message that delivers a person to accept Jesus? Maybe even use the lighting or air conditioning as an AID to help.


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## Ronnie T (Jul 29, 2013)

formula1 said:


> Personally,  I don't go to churches without music and instruments of all kinds.  It's what I enjoy and helps to lead me into an attitude of worship of my Father in Heaven. That would be the goal of music don't you think. And I personally aspire to the whole word of God, including Psalms 150.
> 
> But the life I live in the flesh is still by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me!  That is the perspective that matters!



I find that to be an awkward statement coming from you, my dear dear friend in Christ.
How do you think you would have felt in 1st century Ephesus or Corinth?  Would you have been able to worship though singing without the musical instruments you had been accustomed to outside the church?


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## Ronnie T (Jul 29, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> If music playing during the altar call helped the unsaved person come to Jesus, why is that bad or any different from a person's witness or a preacher's message that delivers a person to accept Jesus? Maybe even use the lighting or air conditioning as an AID to help.



I have a song suggestion for altar call.

"Be with me Lord, I cannot live without you,
I cannot bear, to take one step alone.
I cannot bear, the loads of life unaided,
I need thy strength, to lean myself upon."


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## Israel (Jul 29, 2013)

what "gets" a person to Jesus is...is Jesus.

We seek the seeker...and find the finder.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 29, 2013)

Israel said:


> what "gets" a person to Jesus is...is Jesus.
> 
> We seek the seeker...and find the finder.



That is where we wonder of our part. Do we even need an altar call? How do we worship? Can we sing & dance? Can we have electricity? Can we use Sunday School books, internet, television, or radio?
I say use everything imaginable and go where the unsaved are. Tell the world. Others say no altar call because there is no reason. You can be saved from your pew. Well you can also be saved from your house or car.
My 9 year old nephew asked me if he died on the way to an tell the preacher during an altar call, would he be saved. I said of-course you would, telling the preacher or reciting a prayer isn't the saving part but the announcing part. 
I also will sing when the spirit says sing and dance when the spirit says dance. 
It's amazing that some of the same people who say works aren't a part of Christianity are the vary same people who make a big deal out of how we worship, what we wear, how we present ourselves as being more important than helping others or forgiving others.


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## Ronnie T (Jul 29, 2013)

How would you like to have been here and sang with these folks...................

Matt 26:“Take, eat; this is My body.” 27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you; 28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. 29 But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”

30 After singing a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.


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## Israel (Jul 30, 2013)

yes Art...anything and everything "can" speak for salvation...electrons flooding over a Trane compressor to keep the congregants cool, music about Jesus, lectures by phycisists that "we" are mostly space, starry nights, black stormy nights, smiles, lectures by people with turned around collars, unspeakable sorrows,  lectures by fools...and the words of misfits.

Yes, everything...that is. And anything, that is.

Being is a remarkable thing...so remarkable in fact...we have the ability it seems to even take it for granted.

"Do" everything...or  seem to do nothing. Jesus is Lord. 


And each man is free to believe whether creation is a delight, and his salvation...or a torment, and someone made him to be darned.

Each will find out he is correct in what he ascribes to his maker.
Chaos...or the perfection of order. The perfection of being.

If being is a burden...how can we not hate the one who gives it...out of himself?

I am no longer of the persuasion at all that this:

"If you love me keep my commandments"

means...this:

"you'd better prove your love...and do as I say"

It's all been nothing less than a slap in the face...or a kiss...whichever, they are both the same...to wake someone up.

There is nothing that can be added to the love of God.
The Lord of creation.
That first loved.
His creation.

"he will joy over thee with singing..."


We either believe that...or we still...are just trying to make enough of a racket for him to come down.


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## rustvyper (Jul 30, 2013)

According to John in Revelation, God had a choir of angels rocking out for him with harps (probably where the popular reference came from). 
I suspect, most pb's will need earplugs in heaven.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 30, 2013)

Maybe when Heaven's Angel of Music was kicked out, they didn't replace him. He might have gave them a bad taste for music.


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## JB0704 (Jul 30, 2013)

rustvyper said:


> God had a choir of angels rocking out for him with harps.....





> Revelation 14:2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.



"Rockin' out?"  I think we often put our own spin on things, when looking for what we want to see.  Any time I have "rocked out" for Jesus, I was certainly impressed with myself.  

Unless, of course, John was witnessing modern times, and had no other word for "harp," but was witnessing a Christian metal band.......then, you would have a point.

Either way, I do not see a prohibition on instruments aside from what I have previously articulated.


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## formula1 (Jul 30, 2013)

*Re:*



Ronnie T said:


> I find that to be an awkward statement coming from you, my dear dear friend in Christ.
> How do you think you would have felt in 1st century Ephesus or Corinth?  Would you have been able to worship though singing without the musical instruments you had been accustomed to outside the church?



Ronnie:

I don't mean it to be awkward.  I (personally) am most comfortable in a congregation where we use all our God-given talents, abilities, and instruments to make music to worship our Savior and Lord.  We become all things to all people in order that we might win them to Christ Jesus! That is simply where I am happiest!  I'm sure you have a comfort zone as well and I'm quite glad that you do! Sometimes it's good to get out of out comfort zones though.  I get out of mine on many occasions and I recommend that to you as well, though I will say Jesus must be lifted up!

Just as I am able to worship God in the privacy on my prayer room with no music with hymm or chorus, or in a traditional church with hymns and piano/organ, I can worship God in almost any setting as long as Jesus is lifted up (probably just as you can).

I am not in 1st century Ephesus or Corinth, but having known only that, I would be just fine. 

I simply do not share the legalistic viewpoint of many.   I don't expect you or anyone else to accept my way.  But if you come to my church, you will hear God lifted up using all His talents and tools, and hands raised, and tears flowing down faces because they are grateful for his deliverance from death to life, and you will be loved. Come and see and here is a example of what you will hear!  God Bless!


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## hobbs27 (Jul 30, 2013)

formula1 said:


> Ronnie:
> 
> I don't mean it to be awkward.  I (personally) am most comfortable in a congregation where we use all our God-given talents, abilities, and instruments to make music to worship our Savior and Lord.



Im glad you made this point. Some people have a God given talent to pick up an instrument and play beautiful music. What better way is there to thank God for that talent than to play that instrument unto Him in praise? He is worthy!


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 30, 2013)

I could worship in a Church without music or electricity. I would prefer to worship with both. Both could be aids. I would imagine our music of today is different from music of the early Church. I would imagine our music is different from the music of Rome or Norway. Heavenly music might be completely different from anything we presently know. I like old hymns but if new music helps new Christains worship then I'm for it. Electricity helps me worship,  microphones & loudspeakers on top of cars help others.

If we want to get back to exactly how they worshipped in the early Church we've got a lot of work to do.
We'd have to start by walking or riding in a wagon/cart to Church.


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## Ronnie T (Jul 30, 2013)

formula1 said:


> Ronnie:
> 
> I don't mean it to be awkward.  I (personally) am most comfortable in a congregation where we use all our God-given talents, abilities, and instruments to make music to worship our Savior and Lord.  We become all things to all people in order that we might win them to Christ Jesus! That is simply where I am happiest!  I'm sure you have a comfort zone as well and I'm quite glad that you do! Sometimes it's good to get out of out comfort zones though.  I get out of mine on many occasions and I recommend that to you as well, though I will say Jesus must be lifted up!
> 
> ...



I'm very glad to hear you word it this way.  I was afraid you said "you simply would not attend worship someplace that didn't have instruments because you cannot fully worship God without instruments".

I don't believe instruments are evil, we have a piano in our den, but "truth" has always meant more to me than tradition.

To know that instruments were totally excluded from worship for the first several centuries; to know read of the great uproar that instruments brought into the church; to read those profound statements from our own church leaders that spoke of instruments in such evil ways; to read Jesus' comment to the Samaritan woman that 'one day all people will only worship in spirit and truth; and Paul's comments... when he said a person could do all speak all spiritual things, but not have love, and his voice would be no more than a noisy gong.

I'm thinking our hearts are the music our Lord is most interested in, and our instruments are nothing more than noisy cymbals.
I think I just prefer truth rather than any tradition.  I like the old ways.

I would never pass up an opportunity to sing to the Lord just because an instrument was being used,  but I see a spiritual simplicity and holiness in doing it just the way Jesus and the apostles did.


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## Bama4me (Jul 30, 2013)

formula1 said:


> I simply do not share the legalistic viewpoint of many.



Adherence to the principle of Colossians 3:17 often gets confused with "legalism".  God, and it's seen as an example in the Old Testament, has always set guidelines for people regarding worship - He's never "left it us to man to determine it"... to simply do "whatever we feel is right".  In John 4:23-24, our Lord said acceptable worship to God is composed of following "truth" (God's word per John 17:17) and "heart involvement" (in spirit).

According to the reasoning of some, if a man has the gift of juggling, that gift can somehow be integrated into an activity called "worship".  Where's God's approval for it in the New Testament?  Call it legalism if you want, but give me BCV (book/chapter/verse) for what I'm going to believe, practice, and teach.  Jesus Himself taught respect for the Scriptures in Matthew 5:19.  Oh, wait a moment... that was before salvation wasn't it?


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## Israel (Jul 30, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> Adherence to the principle of Colossians 3:17 often gets confused with "legalism".  God, and it's seen as an example in the Old Testament, has always set guidelines for people regarding worship - He's never "left it us to man to determine it"... to simply do "whatever we feel is right".  In John 4:23-24, our Lord said acceptable worship to God is composed of following "truth" (God's word per John 17:17) and "heart involvement" (in spirit).
> 
> According to the reasoning of some, if a man has the gift of juggling, that gift can somehow be integrated into an activity called "worship".  Where's God's approval for it in the New Testament?  Call it legalism if you want, but give me BCV (book/chapter/verse) for what I'm going to believe, practice, and teach.  Jesus Himself taught respect for the Scriptures in Matthew 5:19.  Oh, wait a moment... that was before salvation wasn't it?



Sometimes worship is mistaken for something else besides what it is.

But God is faithful.

Some people even believe worship happens..."sometimes".


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## formula1 (Jul 30, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> Adherence to the principle of Colossians 3:17 often gets confused with "legalism".  God, and it's seen as an example in the Old Testament, has always set guidelines for people regarding worship - He's never "left it us to man to determine it"... to simply do "whatever we feel is right".  In John 4:23-24, our Lord said acceptable worship to God is composed of following "truth" (God's word per John 17:17) and "heart involvement" (in spirit).
> 
> According to the reasoning of some, if a man has the gift of juggling, that gift can somehow be integrated into an activity called "worship".  Where's God's approval for it in the New Testament?  Call it legalism if you want, but give me BCV (book/chapter/verse) for what I'm going to believe, practice, and teach.  Jesus Himself taught respect for the Scriptures in Matthew 5:19.  Oh, wait a moment... that was before salvation wasn't it?



Simply, in John 4:23-24, we adhere to Spirit and Truth in our worship of God.  This has little to do with a genre of music and everything to do a deep love for our heavenly Father and a desire to please Him and to fully follow Him wherever He leads. And that is the key! 

Oh, and I've seen one juggling and preaching the Gospel and changing lives for the Gospel of Christ.  It works too.
Does a life changed for the Gospel qualify as worship? 

And remember, many a Pharisee knew the Scriptures but they didn't know Jesus standing right in front of them.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 30, 2013)

Israel said:


> Sometimes worship is mistaken for something else besides what it is.
> 
> But God is faithful.
> 
> Some people even believe worship happens..."sometimes".



Very good. Just me...I will rely on the convictions of the Holy Spirit over my study and understanding of scripture as to how I worship. I know the scriptures are true...I also know that man cant seem to completely understand it all...or we would all come to agreement... The Holy Spirit has never led me astray though.


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## Israel (Jul 30, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Very good. Just me...I will rely on the convictions of the Holy Spirit over my study and understanding of scripture as to how I worship. I know the scriptures are true...I also know that man cant seem to completely understand it all...or we would all come to agreement... The Holy Spirit has never led me astray though.



Lack of agreement among the many has never been an impediment, nor even a remote indication that things are not precsiely as they are.


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## Israel (Jul 30, 2013)

formula1 said:


> Simply, in John 4:23-24, we adhere to Spirit and Truth in our worship of God.  This has little to do with a genre of music and everything to do a deep love for our heavenly Father and a desire to please Him and to fully follow Him wherever He leads. And that is the key!
> 
> _Oh, and I've seen one juggling and preaching the Gospel and changing lives for the Gospel of Christ.  It works too.Does a life changed for the Gospel qualify as worship? _And remember, many a Pharisee knew the Scriptures but they didn't know Jesus standing right in front of them.




Amen. 

Do all that you do with the strength that God supplies. 
Happy is the man who juggles as to the Lord.

Unhappy is the man who thinks God would have something besides "as to" him...as in done correctly, better, "scripturally".

I'm amazed the stern "do it right or else!... "dad" retains such a hold. 
But then, I don't have to look past myself. 

I wonder if it's a derivative of "hey...my dad was strict! and I turned out OK!" (Except for the truth I need saving from everything about me.)

For now...God will allow even scripture hollering across the chasms between us...till we see "space is empty"...and there's nothing between us.

Please support your local Ministry of Redundancy Ministry, for that which you already know...you already do know.


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## JB0704 (Jul 30, 2013)

This thread has been surprising, in that, I had no idea there were so many folks who did not use instruments.  Every church I have ever attended used something.....organs, pianos, then drums and guitars.....except when they were going for the "deep" emotions, and folks would sing unaccompanied.


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## Bama4me (Jul 30, 2013)

formula1 said:


> Simply, in John 4:23-24, we adhere to Spirit and Truth in our worship of God.  This has little to do with a genre of music and everything to do a deep love for our heavenly Father and a desire to please Him and to fully follow Him wherever He leads. And that is the key!



Then you DO agree that one can't just do whatever he wants when it comes to worshipping God.  You're drawing a line by saying one worships from "having a deep love, desiring to please Him, and fully following Him".  I draw a line at other places, but we both are drawing a line.  Why do I get saddled with the term "legalist"?


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## Bama4me (Jul 30, 2013)

formula1 said:


> And remember, many a Pharisee knew the Scriptures but they didn't know Jesus standing right in front of them.



Yes... but there was at least one who knew both.  Study up on Nicodemas.  Jesus never condemned the fact the Pharisees studied God's word... He condemned the fact that they often elevated their traditions to the level of Scripture, the fact that they didn't practice what they preached, and the fact their emphasis on biblical ideas weren't balanced (or weighted correctly).


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## MX5HIGH (Jul 30, 2013)

After reading through this entire thread, I believe this now as much as I ever have.  A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.


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## formula1 (Jul 30, 2013)

*Re:*



Bama4me said:


> Then you DO agree that one can't just do whatever he wants when it comes to worshipping God.  You're drawing a line by saying one worships from "having a deep love, desiring to please Him, and fully following Him".  I draw a line at other places, but we both are drawing a line.  Why do I get saddled with the term "legalist"?





Bama4me said:


> Yes... but there was at least one who knew both.  Study up on Nicodemas.  Jesus never condemned the fact the Pharisees studied God's word... He condemned the fact that they often elevated their traditions to the level of Scripture, the fact that they didn't practice what they preached, and the fact their emphasis on biblical ideas weren't balanced (or weighted correctly).



God draws the lines. We simply follow His lead! And for the record, I have not saddled you as a legalist!  

I know Nicodemus very well. One who knew the law but opened his heart to the living Christ. Something that we all should do. But like the Pharisees, we can be creatures of habit and our traditions are easier to accept and justify in our minds. Or perhaps we fear losing what we know and like and are comfortable with. I know this all too well and I'm quite guilty of holding onto way too many things.  We all need to work on actually believing that Christ has set us free from all hindrances!  I will continue to work on believing that until my last day!

We should also embrace the simple fact that God made us all different in the sense that we all compliment the Body of Christ with our gifts in such a way that only God can comprehend the total picture He is creating. It is all about Him!  We simply don't see everything from His perspective!

May the Gospel of Christ always flow from your heart! God bless!


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## Ronnie T (Jul 30, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Very good. Just me...I will rely on the convictions of the Holy Spirit over my study and understanding of scripture as to how I worship. I know the scriptures are true...I also know that man cant seem to completely understand it all...or we would all come to agreement... The Holy Spirit has never led me astray though.



Don't you think you can't have one of those things without having the other also?
.


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## Ronnie T (Jul 30, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> This thread has been surprising, in that, I had no idea there were so many folks who did not use instruments.  Every church I have ever attended used something.....organs, pianos, then drums and guitars.....except when they were going for the "deep" emotions, and folks would sing unaccompanied.



Yes.


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## Ronnie T (Jul 30, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> Then you DO agree that one can't just do whatever he wants when it comes to worshipping God.  You're drawing a line by saying one worships from "having a deep love, desiring to please Him, and fully following Him".  I draw a line at other places, but we both are drawing a line.  Why do I get saddled with the term "legalist"?



It's such a phony word.  "Legalist"!  It sounds like a good word.
Mostly we use it to describe someone who adheres to a more strict holding of something that the scriptures taught.
It's isn't that their belief is unscriptural; but, their belief is far beyond the normal.  "Legalist"


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## Ronnie T (Jul 30, 2013)

formula1 said:


> God draws the lines. We simply follow His lead! And for the record, I have not saddled you as a legalist!
> 
> I know Nicodemus very well. One who knew the law but opened his heart to the living Christ. Something that we all should do. But like the Pharisees, we can be creatures of habit and our traditions are easier to accept and justify in our minds. Or perhaps we fear losing what we know and like and are comfortable with. I know this all too well and I'm quite guilty of holding onto way too many things.  We all need to work on actually believing that Christ has set us free from all hindrances!  I will continue to work on believing that until my last day!
> 
> ...



Hindrances.  Is that really what Jesus has set us free from?  In Christ, have I now been freed to indulge myself in all the ways that please me?  Or have I been freed from the uncontrollable powers of this world in which I desire.  Freed from the need to 'fit-in'.  Freed from the attitudes and agendas of this world that has already made me look like a fool far too many times.  And I still resemble that fool far too often.
It is what it is.  I keep saying, "I am not of this world".. "I am not of this world".. "I am not of this world".  Maybe some day soon.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 30, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Don't you think you can't have one of those things without having the other also?
> .



You're correct. Some things I will admit I take for granted though without studying it through....I may even rely on Religion...shame on me... My point was though I trust the spirit over my natural understanding of things and depend on the Spirit for a clear understanding. But some things I know not for I have asked not...I would feel even more ashamed to argue my carnal understanding of the scripture to the Holy Spirit. 

 I hope that makes sense...I think it would put me in the position of the Pharisee that argued scripture with Jesus, yet they could not understand heavenly things.

I encourage anyone to worship as they feel led to. If that means no music then great! If it means pa rump a Pom Pom me and my drum..then that's great too.

Thanks for all the answers as to why some people are against music in the Church, I've learned from the topic, I didn't really have a clue before but I figured there was some biblical reason...I'm just not convinced that our Lord really wanted singing with no music....We are suppose to make a joyful noise, and the music makes my noises more joyful.


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## formula1 (Jul 30, 2013)

*Re:*



Ronnie T said:


> Hindrances.



Free from sin and a slave to the righteousness of Christ.  Nothing more/nothing less! Come on Ronnie! Or did you not know that your sin was/is your hindrance?


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## Bama4me (Jul 30, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> It's such a phony word.  "Legalist"!  It sounds like a good word.
> Mostly we use it to describe someone who adheres to a more strict holding of something that the scriptures taught.
> It's isn't that their belief is unscriptural; but, their belief is far beyond the normal.  "Legalist"



Formula... sorry if I read your post the wrong way and thanks for clarifying.  From what I've seen/experienced Ronnie, a person is usually coined "a legalist" when he/she holds to a more conservative view on a topic than someone else.  However, the funny thing is that according to that definition, we're ALL legalists because somewhere out there someone holds a more liberal view than our's on that particular subject.

It seems to me, after reading the posts in the thread, that the difference between people lies in the question "what constitutes truth"?  For some, "truth" comes from study of Scripture... for others, "truth" comes from what the Holy Spirit "leads" someone to.  In discussing subjects like this, your view of "how you determine truth" influences where one stands.


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## Ronnie T (Jul 30, 2013)

I agree.  And I believe there are two schools of thought.  
One, that the church must be progressive.  That it needs to evolve with the world so that the world will find the church a more restful and comfortable place.
Second, that the church is simply the church.  Protected from all the outside influences of the world as it hopes to be fully "in" Christ.  Eager to keep the church as a heavenly position rather than a piece of the world's pie.

Maybe there's a middle.  But neither of us believes so.
.


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## formula1 (Jul 30, 2013)

*Re:*

I will would like to define what a legalist is from my point of view for clarity.  A legalist (from a religious standpoint) is someone who holds to tradition or as you said a scriptural conservative point of view to the hurt of another disciple of Christ. In other word's , one's standard not tempered by Love as Christ would have it.

You may hold to a traditional viewpoint but without Love is is just as dead to another and may in fact separate one from the Gospel.  This is where I draw the line and I draw it that way as a result of being on the receiving end of it at one time.

God Bless!


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## hummerpoo (Jul 30, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> Why do I get saddled with the term "legalist"?



That saddle is often associated with a feedbag.
Free range mustangs ... not so much.


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## Ronnie T (Jul 30, 2013)

formula1 said:


> I will would like to define what a legalist is from my point of view for clarity.  A legalist (from a religious standpoint) is someone who holds to tradition or as you said a scriptural conservative point of view to the hurt of another disciple of Christ. In other word's , one's standard not tempered by Love as Christ would have it.
> 
> You may hold to a traditional viewpoint but without Love is is just as dead to another and may in fact separate one from the Gospel.  This is where I draw the line and I draw it that way as a result of being on the receiving end of it at one time.
> 
> God Bless!



I've been on the receiving end of it many times.  And I in no way believe that my singing without the accompaniment of instruments has caused me to become more holy than one who does.
This isn't a discussion that I often get into but I'm always glad when Christians can learn things of the past that they had not before.

And couldn't the highlighted section above be used by either side of a discussion.


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## Israel (Jul 30, 2013)

Maybe it's cause the whole "thing" of worship...really is not to be seen, cannot be seen, except by the Lord?
Of some he has said: 
Mat_15:9  But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

To others he speaks: 
Joh_4:23  But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 

Because:
Joh_4:24  God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. 

Perhaps precisely all of a man's "what will this man do?" is only undone as we recognize our brother may seem very different from us in his preferences...but that the same spirit we cannot deny. And as the spirit moves "that" vessel...in whatever manner the LORD chooses...we only imperil our own liberty by seeking to bring any to anything but the recognition of that Spirit...that will not be bound.

How easily we may say...and come to believe "but the spirit only moves THIS way..." because we have been so ministered to in that manner... 

But if we truly believe...as we may claim...that where the spirit of the Lord is there is liberty...we may discover our attempts frustrated...our endeavors thwarted...our spirit experiencing confinement...when we seek to uphold or forbid...things that are only at best...surmised.
Yes, there are express injunctions _against_ certain pursuits and interests...but even in those...if we leave the ground of mercy...and seek instead to operate from anything other than concern...even our deepest and most profound convictions...of right and wrong...good and evil, expediency and licentiousness, we may discover...empty.

It may not simply be enough to "know" the good...if all it leads to is seeing all that is wrong.
Who will deliver me from this body of death...?


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## Ronnie T (Jul 30, 2013)

Hey Israel, I think I said it a few days ago........ maybe I said it at church, but I made the confession that "I" most likely have never done one single thing perfectly, precisely, and completely as it should have been done.
But as a person who loves God I feel that I must "seek" to do everything perfectly.

There's probably a good word for my dilemma.  You probably know a word.           ________ .


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## Israel (Jul 30, 2013)

son


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 30, 2013)

How do we worship in spirit? What are some verses that tell us how to do it?
What are some thoughts on what that means?
I'm not exactly sure but would say it pertains to loving God with all our heart so it's probably more than a Sunday service.

I ran across these tips that are saying God likes diversity in worship but what does any of these tips have to do with worshiping in spirit?

When you listen to the radio, it brings a difference to you through every song played, otherwise if all the artist were the same person, you then would be listening to a tape or CD
He loves our ways of worship, because it is fresh and inviting.
God is a God of change and diversity, other wise there would only be one particular race of people. God has created a multiple of ethnicity.
Don't make your Worship like everyone else's program and be unattractive to His Holy Spirit.
Find out what makes you excited about lifting your hands and began to indulge in that place, in other words make an appointment to meet with Him in a specific state of mind or attitude.

http://www.wikihow.com/Worship-God-in-Spirit-and-Truth


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## Ronnie T (Jul 30, 2013)

Israel said:


> son




That's certainly not the kinda word I thought you would leave.  I was unprepared for it, but we thank you for it.
That word is the only possible answer, isn't it.  Lower case.
It stirs my emotions to be reminded of the relationship that we all have with our Father.
Insightful.  Thanks.


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## formula1 (Jul 30, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> And couldn't the highlighted section above be used by either side of a discussion.



Indeed! But if one is aware of the grace received he will likely give it! God bless!


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## Ronnie T (Jul 30, 2013)

formula1 said:


> Indeed! But if one is aware of the grace received He will likely give it! God bless!



I hope you don't mind me correcting (as I see it) what you said.
When we worship God, no matter how, where, when we do it, I believe it's God's grace that we become so dependent upon.

I was just thinking about Arts last question above,  "How do we worship is spirit".  I'm still giving it thought.


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## Ronnie T (Jul 30, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> How do we worship in spirit?



How do we worship in spirit??  Great question.  Gotta think about it!

Back to John 4:23  For the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship him.  24 God is Spirit; and they that worship him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.

The Father seeketh such to worship him.
God is spirit, so all worship much by necessity be spiritual.  I think the central fact in worship is not that we are seeking God, but that He is seeking us.  And there must be many ways that God seeks to break into us.

"Ready was I to answer men who never asked me, ready to be found by men who never sought me.  I cried out, 'Here am I," to folk who never called to me.. Ere ever they call to me, I answer, and while they speak I hear" (Isaiah 65:1)

When God's willingness to receive and give is met by responsive and receptive hearts, things happen.  When the church reaches out toward God in devotion and thanksgiving, in confession, in intercession, with eager hearts that long for Him and watch for him, things happen.

I remember someone once telling me that when people worship expectantly, they are usually met by an expectancy far greater than their own, from the one whom they worship.

The anticipation of people who have eyes to see what eye hath not seen, and ears to hear what ear has not heard, and hearts to understand what has not entered into that heart before, is most likely the one who worships in spirit.  Expectantly.

I'm thinking that worship is 'in the Spirit' when God has arrived on the scene-and the person knows it.
What do you think?
.


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## formula1 (Jul 31, 2013)

*Re:*



Ronnie T said:


> I'm thinking that worship is 'in the Spirit' when God has arrived on the scene-and the person knows it.
> What do you think?



That's a pretty good description.

I would further describe it as a moment where your own life is swallowed up by the the presence of the Lord and you are overcome with the greatness and wonder of your Heavenly Father. This is often where spiritual songs can flow from your spirit to God as He gives. Call it 'tuned in' if you will.

I'm not even sure if I can adequately describe the sense of complete joy and complete peace in those moments, but it sure does cause me to long for the eternal even more!


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## Israel (Jul 31, 2013)

21:28  But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.

21:29  He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.

21:30  And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.

21:31  Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.


A certain man did not have three sons.

How often I have heard "I listen to God only!" "I follow the Holy Spirit!"...probably most coming from my own mouth.

Foolish son, don't ever forget to add, lest you be found as one seeking to promote yourself...EVENTUALLY.

And that, only by grace extended to all that comes before that "eventually".


And found complete and full in that "eventually".


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## hummerpoo (Jul 31, 2013)

That which is done in the flesh can be of the spirit, 
That which is done in the spirit can not be of the flesh.

Who started it?


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## Israel (Jul 31, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> That which is done in the flesh can be of the spirit,
> That which is done in the spirit can not be of the flesh.
> 
> Who started it?



amen. 

all the Lord...the word, the grace, the patience, the execution...


In the beginning God...
but what happenned between the beginning that God is all...and the end at which God is all? 
What happens between Alpha and Omega?
Everything and nothing. How can that be?

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

BUT:

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Three out of three beats two out of three EVERYTIME.


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## hummerpoo (Jul 31, 2013)

Israel said:


> amen.
> 
> all the Lord...the word, the grace, the patience, the execution...
> 
> ...



Thank you for a wonderful perspective.

Strange isn’t it; the joy in the game even when the final score is known.  Must be the Coach.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 31, 2013)

Thanks for the thoughts on worshiping in the spirit.


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## pstrahin (Jul 31, 2013)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> I am certain that the only one gaining from the constant arguments between different denominations on how to worship, when and where etc. etc. etc. is satan.



This


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## Bama4me (Jul 31, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> How do we worship in spirit? What are some verses that tell us how to do it?
> What are some thoughts on what that means?
> I'm not exactly sure but would say it pertains to loving God with all our heart so it's probably more than a Sunday service.
> 
> ...



A lot can be gleaned by looking at the same phrase Christ said in John 4 - "in spirit".  Here are most of the passages which contain the same Greek phrase.

Matthew 5:3 - blessed are the poor in spirit
Luke 1:80 - the child grew and became strong in spirit
John 13:21 - was troubled in spirit
Acts 18:25 - being fervent in spirit
Romans 12:11 - do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit
1 Corinthians 5:3 - for though absent in body, I am present in spirit
1 Corinthians 7:24 - that she may be holy both in body and in spirit
1 Corinthians 14:15 - I will pray with the spirit and with the understanding
Colossians 2:5 - I am with you in spirit

Looking at the different passages, it seems "in spirit" had at least three general meanings in the NT.  First, it was a person's "inner being"... or attitude.  Modifiers like "poor", "strong", and "fervent" described how the inner being was/should be.

Second, the phrase was used to denote "one's influence" when personally absent (way Paul utilized it when he was not able to present).

Third, it seems to be utilized to distinguish was is done "on the inside" of a person.  In 1 Corinthians 7:24, the woman is to be holy "in body and in spirit".  In other words, she is to holy both outwardly (what people see) and inwardly (what people cannot see).  In 1 Corinthians 14:15, the immediate context is about the misuse of tongues.  When no interpret was present, a person speaking in tongues was speaking "in spirit" while lacking "understanding."  Thus, the text seems to be saying "his heart is engaged, but his mind is not comprehending."

It would seem this third idea more probably was the gist of what the Lord said in John 4.  When a person worships, the actions done are guided by "truth".  However, we all know people can just "go through the motions"... having action but a lack of "heart involvement."  "In spirit" seems to indicate the "inward component" of worship.  One's worship to God isn't just about what they do outwardly... it's about their "heart involvement" in what they're doing.

I especially lean towards the third idea being correct due to the context of the passage.  Jesus was in Samaria... and worship was a battle ground between Jews & Samaritans.  Samaritans had a mixed heritage, but claimed they followed the Pentateuch (first five books of OT).  Jews held to the "Law and the Prophets" (all OT books).  The question the woman posed to Christ was about location of worship.  Samaritans said there was no need to go to Jerusalem to worship - Mount Gerazim was suitable and the Pentateuch didn't mandate a location.  Jews said the correct place was Jerusalem - mandated later in the OT.  Thus, the lady was asking Jesus about a controversial issue - "where's the correct place to worship - Gerazim or Jerusalem?"  

The issue with that whole line of reasoning, however, was that when people argue about location they often forget about the activity itself.  Just because a person correctly came to Jerusalem to worship didn't automatically mean they left "having worshipped"... presence alone didn't mean they were acceptable to God.  Thus, Jesus made sure she understood a time was coming when location didn't matter... what would matter was that people would engage in action (guided by truth) originating "from the heart" (in spirit).  We can have zeal (heart involvement) without correct actions (Romans 10:2)... but we can also have correct actions without the right heart (Matthew 6:1ff).  Both are important to God.


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## panfried0419 (Aug 2, 2013)

Needtobreathe, Third Day, Casting Crowns, Matt Redmond, and Natalie Grant  all awesome!


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## Paymaster (Aug 2, 2013)

panfried0419 said:


> Needtobreathe, Third Day, Casting Crowns, Matt Redmond, and Natalie Grant  all awesome!



Indeed!


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## JB0704 (Aug 2, 2013)

panfried0419 said:


> Needtobreathe, Third Day, Casting Crowns, Matt Redmond, and Natalie Grant  all awesome!



I have seen 3rd day and Matt Redmond live.  What's funny, is that I'm "old school," and think David Crowder is the "real musician" of the bunch.  I saw him do the bluegrass thing live about 8 years ago....guy can play anything he picks up.

If you want to work up a crowd, play almost anything by Hillsong.

My thoughts on that music are not releant to their "awesomeness."  It is relevant to their intent.  For me, I recognized my intent while playing their music, and I just had to stop.....I became what I claimed to detest, all show.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 2, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> ...I became what I claimed to detest, all show.



 You can't help it if God gave you an awesome talent..He gets all the glory for that.


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## JB0704 (Aug 2, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> You can't help it if God gave you an awesome talent..He gets all the glory for that.



I don't knwo if it can be called a talent in my case  I'm really not very good.  If a guitar player can keep rythym,  has a decent bass player and drums accompany him, it's not hard to sound decent.  But, I do appreciate what you are trying to convey.

Let me clarify some......

As I stated earlier, I evolved from believing I was this "Jesus lovin' hippy" who played guitar in some small church plants while wearing trendy t-shirts and bandanas (and, man, I thought I was so stinking cool) to acknowleding that I was really out to glorify me.  The "freedom" that I was trying so hard to demonstrate was actually nothing mroe than a rebellion against the stuffiness of my childhood churches.  It had nothing to do with Jesus.

It's not that the bandanas, music, or whatever was inherently wrong, it was my motivation, heart, and intent.  I had believed that I was disgusted with "religion," but had jumped into my own version, which looked down on tradition as if it was no longer relevant.....and in doing so, I became as judgemental as the people who had always judged me when I was a kid in those stuffy churches.  All I did was take the religion I was rebelling against, and put a new twist on it, with new rules.  Instead of having tradition and the law weigh me down, I was now bound by what was "cool."

For reference, it's kind-a the equivalent of standing during the chorus because everybody else does.  Why do we do that if we are focused on God?  The truth is, we don't want to be the only "un-godly" people who weren't moved to stand.

Then, once I looked in the mirror and saw a phony, I looked at the culture I was in.  So "anti-tradition" that it became self-serving, and judgemental in it's own right.  I began to notice the hypocracy of acting like we had it all figured out, and that we were enlightened to have evolved beyond tradition.  In doing so, we were judging tradition.

Tradition judges modern trends too.  Where is the balance?

I believe the value is in the heart of the act.  If a church can have a "rockin'" band, and a pure heart, then so be it.  I cannot judge the heart of somebody else.  But, I can judge my own heart, and my own actions, and I did not like what I became when surrounded by that culture.  For me, that is the balance.....what do I do that keeps me focused on God, and not on me?  Additionally, being so close to many of these modern churches, I gained insight into the marketing behind them, and the thought processes that go into every decision......all I can say about that is that I can't be part of a "concert" that is developed for the market for the sake of numerical growth.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 2, 2013)

panfried0419 said:


> Needtobreathe, Third Day, Casting Crowns, Matt Redmond, and Natalie Grant  all awesome!



Who is awesome?
.


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## Israel (Aug 2, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I don't knwo if it can be called a talent in my case  I'm really not very good.  If a guitar player can keep rythym,  has a decent bass player and drums accompany him, it's not hard to sound decent.  But, I do appreciate what you are trying to convey.
> 
> Let me clarify some......
> 
> ...



how often we go in one direction...in our "liberty"...till we see...this is become more reactionary than free and I am just as "compelled" in a direction as any other I might eschew.

learning to seek out the Lord...himself...sometimes takes us to discoveries of fundamenrtals about which we were once blind. The "why" of us, our doings...our choices, our slavery to our own preferences...

a fellow I know once took some tape and nerded up his glasses...as though the bridge and ear piece were broken. When the neursosurgeon came into the room he said..."busted up your glasses, huh?"

This fellow responded: "no, but sometimes a man will never know who he is until he can face all he is striving  to not be..."

The neurosurgeon asked "how long did it take you to think that up"?

Actually, it came to the fellow when the question was asked.

How often we think we are running to something...when the only impetus has been a fleeing in fear and loathing...even in Las Vegas.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 2, 2013)

I'm trying to see the difference from a singer using his talent to spread the Word and a preacher or speaker.
Even if one goes to hear the talent doesn't the message still come with it? I don't think you have to feel guilty for enjoying the beauty or awsomeness of the talent associated with the message.

I went to a Catholic funeral and was inspired by the awesomeness of the organ music, incense, the ceremony, the solo singer, and the two young girls that helped the priest perform his formalities.
I could feel the presence of the Holy Spirit and believe it was inspired by the beauty and awesomeness. And yes none of that awesomeness beats the awesomeness of the Holy Spirit.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 2, 2013)

While we are on Christian talent, what about Christian comedians, magicians, etc. I remeber a Christian magician coming to my elementry school 45-50 years ago. He did this trick with a hankerchief spotted with sin and Jesus cleaned it white as snow. It must have truly impressed me. I can't remeber any of my preacher's sermons from 45 years ago. I do remember a song about Zacchaeus Was a Wee Little Man.


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## Israel (Aug 2, 2013)

Art, I don't think JB was trying to diminish God's gifts in any area.
And to Ronnies comment we could also hearken. Sounds biblical, huh?

They really do fit like a hand in glove..."Who's awesome?"

If the singer likes hearing that they are...and they can't deny it...it is expedient, perhaps for them to croak.
And  in croaking be told "gee, you don't sound so good...we like better singers"

It's only a temporary death. For those who accept it. Seems there's a permanent one...for those who won't.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 2, 2013)

David Cain Juggles for Jesus; awesome but not an approved Biblical  form of worship.


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## JB0704 (Aug 2, 2013)

Israel said:


> Art, I don't think JB was trying to diminish God's gifts in any area.



Correct.  I was clarifying my experience applying them.  I didn't do it for God.....even though I had convinced myself that I was so awesome for trying.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 2, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Correct.  I was clarifying my experience applying them.  I didn't do it for God.....even though I had convinced myself that I was so awesome for trying.



Ok, I just read it wrong. You personally wasn't performing Christian music for the right reason.
That's understandable, do you still listen to other Christian bands like the ones listed?


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## centerpin fan (Aug 2, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> David Cain Juggles for Jesus




This guy does not:


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 2, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> This guy does not:



Yeah that probably wouldn't go over too well. We were just discussing that movie a few days ago. Great movie.


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## JB0704 (Aug 2, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> That's understandable, do you still listen to other Christian bands like the ones listed?



Nah.  Much of it is written with a profit motive.  I was around a few folks in that scene, and it turned me away from it, big-time.


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## panfried0419 (Aug 3, 2013)

Tim Hawkins came to our 25th anniversary for church. He was hilarious.


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## JB0704 (Aug 4, 2013)

panfried0419 said:


> Tim Hawkins came to our 25th anniversary for church. He was hilarious.



My son is always repeating his stuff.


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