# You can take yourself out{Salvation}



## barryl

Tell us how you can take yourself out. Chapter and Verse, stay out of the Faith and Works{Mosaic Law}, Trib., Mill., 2  advent and make sure you aren't privately interpreting scripture. Tell us how Jesus wasted his time dying on the Cross at Calvary.


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## JB0704

barryl said:


> Tell us how Jesus wasted his time dying on the Cross at Calvary.



An awful lot is implied with that statement.  Taken to it's logical end, anybody going to he11 would indicate wasted time, unless you are a predes sort of thinker....indicating only the elect were died for to start with.

Look at it from the other direction, perhaps Jesus didn't waste his time, but those who are not saved wasted Jesus' time?????


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## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> ... make sure you aren't privately interpreting scripture.



Tell us how.


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## Ronnie T

You can't take yourself out anymore than you can put yourself in.
It is God who adds to His kingdom daily those who are being saved.  
It is God who will spew out those.  It is God who will finally turn His face from you.
Not a ruler or any other power, but God.  
But it will be your doing.


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## StriperAddict

A song lyric by Don Francisco said it best:

"There's no sin you could imagine that is stronger than My love"

As far as scripture, there's overwhelming assurance that "nothing shall seperate us from the love of God". 


(Cheap grace disclaimer: Rom 6:1,2. In fact, all of Rom 6, 7 & 8.)


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## 1gr8bldr

Many will be deceived and will take a false "get out of jail/hail free card". So watch out that ye not be deceived. They will take the mark of the false Christ, the antichrist, which cannot save anyone.


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## formula1

*re:*

The get out of jail free card is the reward for a job 'well done', the promise God desires for all His children. And what should we do well, but to know God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent and fall completely in love with Him. If one does this, God will know him and come to him, and he will have all that is needed in this life and in the coming Kingdom. And what was lost will be found!


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## pstrahin

The idea of "Once Saved Always Saved" is simply an easy way to justify the sinful lifestyle that one chooses to live.

The plan of salvation is simple.

Hear the word of God.
Believe it.
Repent of your sins.
Confess that you believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Be baptized.  

Once you have done this, you can fall away.  Just look at the Church at Laodicea.  Look at 2 Peter 2:21.  

However, we all sin daily and the Blood of Jesus cleanses those that seek him diligently, i.e. 1 John 1:7, Walk in the Light as he is in the light.

Those that choose to sin intentionally, i.e., sexual immorality, homosexuality,  drunkeness, lying, et al, are not going to inherit the Kingdom. 

So yes, you can take yourself out by choosing this evil world over God.


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## gemcgrew

pstrahin said:


> The idea of "Once Saved Always Saved" is simply an easy way to justify the sinful lifestyle that one chooses to live.


That would be a non-Christian idea.


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## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Not a ruler or any other power, but God. But it will be your doing.


Those two statements are irreconcilable.


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## Artfuldodger

1gr8bldr said:


> Many will be deceived and will take a false "get out of jail/hail free card". So watch out that ye not be deceived. They will take the mark of the false Christ, the antichrist, which cannot save anyone.



I have read somewhere, but I don't remember what scriptures, that say a Christian will recognize the antichrist and therefore can't accept the Mark of the Beast.
If Satan can't take away our salvation, why would one of his agents?


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## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> Those two statements are irreconcilable.



Is not!


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## hobbs27

pstrahin said:


> The idea of "Once Saved Always Saved" is simply an easy way to justify the sinful lifestyle that one chooses to live.
> 
> The plan of salvation is simple.
> 
> Hear the word of God.
> Believe it.
> Repent of your sins.
> Confess that you believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
> Be baptized.



I believe one has to be called to repentance, once they have heard the Gospel,and believed it. Jesus will stand at the door and knock. We can only be saved when Jesus is ready to save us. Which is one of the reasons I ask the next question.




pstrahin said:


> Once you have done this, you can fall away.  Just look at the Church at Laodicea.  Look at 2 Peter 2:21.
> 
> However, we all sin daily and the Blood of Jesus cleanses those that seek him diligently, i.e. 1 John 1:7, Walk in the Light as he is in the light.
> 
> Those that choose to sin intentionally, i.e., sexual immorality, homosexuality,  drunkeness, lying, et al, are not going to inherit the Kingdom.
> 
> So yes, you can take yourself out by choosing this evil world over God.



A couple of problems that I run into when I try to make the idea of losing salvation possible is, to admit this we must admit that God makes mistakes, or He would have never offered salvation in the first place, knowing you were not able to keep it.
The other problem is that we are saved by grace ( an undeserving love), so if we are never deserving of salvation in the first place, how in the world could we become undeserving of it?


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## 1gr8bldr

Artfuldodger said:


> I have read somewhere, but I don't remember what scriptures, that say a Christian will recognize the antichrist and therefore can't accept the Mark of the Beast.
> If Satan can't take away our salvation, why would one of his agents?


Yea, I recall that, trying to remember..... but if that were so then Paul had no reason to warn his flock. 
????


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> I believe one has to be called to repentance, once they have heard the Gospel,and believed it. Jesus will stand at the door and knock. We can only be saved when Jesus is ready to save us. Which is one of the reasons I ask the next question.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A couple of problems that I run into when I try to make the idea of losing salvation possible is, to admit this we must admit that God makes mistakes, or He would have never offered salvation in the first place, knowing you were not able to keep it.
> The other problem is that we are saved by grace ( an undeserving love), so if we are never deserving of salvation in the first place, how in the world could we become undeserving of it?



so you believe in "election?" That's the reason they use: If Jesus died for the whole world and Jesus doesn't actually save the whole world, then that would mean God made a mistake. Either everything is of God or it isn't.


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## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> Tell us how you can take yourself out. Chapter and Verse, stay out of the Faith and Works{Mosaic Law}, Trib., Mill., 2  advent and make sure you aren't privately interpreting scripture. Tell us how Jesus wasted his time dying on the Cross at Calvary.



Please come back, we're having trouble dividing the truth.
I feel we are privately interpreting scripture.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> so you believe in "election?" That's the reason they use: If Jesus died for the whole world and Jesus doesn't actually save the whole world, then that would mean God made a mistake. Either everything is of God or it isn't.




Im in between.I believe we all will get the call at sometime in our life. Some will accept and some will refuse.
I believe God knows who will accept and who will refuse, but the part of refusing is part of the misery of he11.Knowing you had your chance and you turned Him away.

Hope that makes sense.Ive never studied it enough to place labels on anything like this.


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## Artfuldodger

Have ya'll noticed how many of our discussions center on "salvation?"
Who has it, who grants it, do we have any part of it, proof of it, how do we lose it, how do we keep it, can we lose it, who is it offered to, can anyone have it, some believe they have it but don't, some had it but lost it when they didn't _____&, is there a false version of it.
BUT, BUT, BUT: It is all of God, from God, by God, and adding anything whatsoever Man adds to the equation takes away from God's grace. God knows all and sees all. I've heard all the, I know this kid will choose chocolate and this kid will choose vanilla and by knowing this pre-information, I didn't make their choices. Isn't that really way different from being a God that has control of everything from the beginning of time?


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Those two statements are irreconcilable.



For the life of me I can't comprehend why the Holy Spirit lead me down the road of "free will" I'm looking at Christ as a simple plan & solution. The solution and plan would be so simple if I knew God was in total control and "Man" didn't have any input whatsoever into anything. I envy your "election" belief and pray that the Holy Spirit will guide me to switch over. He's guided me to switch over a lot of my beliefs but not my belief in "freewill." Therefore until he guides me to do so, I'll have to struggle with my "man made confusion" until I can learn to "rightly divide the truth."


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## Artfuldodger

To all the "free will" believers: If everything is in God's control and Salvation is of and from God, what is the difference from your belief and the "election" belief. When it really comes down to it, as the topic of this thread says, what in the world can a mere man do to ruin his salvation?


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Im in between.I believe we all will get the call at sometime in our life. Some will accept and some will refuse.
> I believe God knows who will accept and who will refuse, but the part of refusing is part of the misery of he11.Knowing you had your chance and you turned Him away.
> 
> Hope that makes sense.Ive never studied it enough to place labels on anything like this.



I know you responded before my other post and I must add that I'm a partial free willer. There are just too many verses saying I must do or not do something: believe, repent, pray, ask, learn, read, forgive,love, help,feed, witness, and be obedient to God. I'm trying to learn that those are things I do of my own free will for my love of God.
There are just too many requirements placed upon ME to believe that God doesn't expect ME to do something. I'm trying to learn that my salvation isn't dependent on those requirements. I'm trying to learn why are they called commandments or requirements if my salvation isn't dependent upon me doing said commandments. Why didn't Jesus call them something other than New Testament commandments? That is such a strong word if it means as a Christian i'll naturally do them as fruits.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I know you responded before my other post and I must add that I'm a partial free willer. There are just too many verses saying I must do or not do something: believe, repent, pray, ask, learn, read, forgive,love, help,feed, witness, and be obedient to God. I'm trying to learn that those are things I do of my own free will for my love of God.
> There are just too many requirements placed upon ME to believe that God doesn't expect ME to do something. I'm trying to learn that my salvation isn't dependent on those requirements. I'm trying to learn why are they called commandments or requirements if my salvation isn't dependent upon me doing said commandments. Why didn't Jesus call them something other than New Testament commandments? That is such a strong word if it means as a Christian i'll naturally do them as fruits.



Sometimes we miss the picture, wanting to know in writing. Searching for an answer that we can go back to the book of ____ Ch.__ vs__. That would be OT style of religion.
 Art, salvation ain't a contract, its a heartfelt thing, it is written in your heart. Either you feel the presence of Jesus/Holy Spirit within you or you dont. Lets not overthink what God has made simple.


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## pstrahin

hobbs27 said:


> I believe one has to be called to repentance, once they have heard the Gospel,and believed it. Jesus will stand at the door and knock. We can only be saved when Jesus is ready to save us. Which is one of the reasons I ask the next question.
> 
> I agree with this.
> 
> 
> A couple of problems that I run into when I try to make the idea of losing salvation possible is, to admit this we must admit that God makes mistakes, or He would have never offered salvation in the first place, knowing you were not able to keep it.
> The other problem is that we are saved by grace ( an undeserving love), so if we are never deserving of salvation in the first place, how in the world could we become undeserving of it?



This is hard to argue, but God does not make mistakes, we do.  God wants us to come to him.  We miss that opportunity by choosing a life contrary to God's calling.  It makes me think of the Parable of the Sower.  One might hear the word, believe the word, are baptized but get caught back up in the world.  They are Christian and their sins are seperating them from God. 

Lets say I am called to repentance.  Then, I go back into the world, become a drunk, chase wild women and use my kids college fund on drugs.  I don't repent of it and die.  Where will my soul spend eternity?


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## Artfuldodger

Just thinking out loud but how does God choose who he calls?  What does he use as his basis for his calling? God  is no respector of "Man" and good deeds & works matters not to God.
The way I'm reading this thing called salvation, it works  like this and it is real simple. God calls us, we choose him, and if it takes(salvation) you can tell from the works/fruits of the saved person. If it doesn't take(salvation) then you had a false conversion. You were lead to this false conversion by a false teacher. Otherwise if the real God saved you, you would be saved and wouldn't go back into the world, become a drunk, chase wild women and use your kids college fund on drugs.


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## gemcgrew

pstrahin said:


> It makes me think of the Parable of the Sower.  One might hear the word, believe the word, are baptized but get caught back up in the world.  They are Christian and their sins are seperating them from God.


They are not Christian according to the parable. The Christian is found in verse 20.
"And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred." (Mark 4:20)


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> They are not Christian according to the parable. The Christian is found in verse 20.
> "And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred." (Mark 4:20)



I would agree that verse 20 is where the Christians enter into the parable.
In that parable it sounds like anyone who hears the "Word" and receives it, will have salvation.

It makes it sound like I could be walking down the street, stop to listen to the "Word" from a street preacher, receive it, believe it, and have salvation.  
That's not the only verse that appears to be saying this is true.


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## Inthegarge

Sorry but I don't think a Parable is a good example/threshold to use for Salvation or any other spiritual truth. There are too many verses that are plain and simple. I rest in "God know those who are His" and know doubt is not of God.


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## gemcgrew

Inthegarge said:


> Sorry but I don't think a Parable is a good example/threshold to use for Salvation or any other spiritual truth.


Take it up with God.


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## hobbs27

pstrahin said:


> Lets say I am called to repentance.  Then, I go back into the world, become a drunk, chase wild women and use my kids college fund on drugs.  I don't repent of it and die.  Where will my soul spend eternity?



There is a difference in repentance and asking for forgiveness. That's for another debate though. I always think of Sauls grandson Mephibosheth in the land of Lodibar (place of no pasture). David showed him love and grace by seeking him out and bringing him back and giving him riches and a place at the kings table. See David didn't deny him his birthright, and if we are saved we are born into an eternal kingdom and we are heirs.
 I bring this up because I believe we as the church often times fail our brothers that have gotten away, are back in the world. We too often condemn them to he11 instead of praying for them and asking God to use us to help them. They are not without a Father and they are enduring a spiritual beating, while being enticed by lustful things of this world. I unfortunately have been more than once a miserable comforter (job) to my brethren. 
 If you are saved, you are born again in the spirit and you have a spiritual Father that will chastise you betimes, but He will always be your Father.


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## Artfuldodger

Many are called but few are chosen. God could choose you for something other than salvation. All 12 of the disciples were chosen but one was the devil.  So, the fact that you are chosen doesn’t necessarily mean that you are saved. 
Jesus says, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" (John 6:44
). He adds, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father" (verse 65).
Isn't it amazing the power of God being more powerful than Jesus?


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## furtaker

Ronnie T said:


> You can't take yourself out anymore than you can put yourself in.
> It is God who adds to His kingdom daily those who are being saved.
> It is God who will spew out those.  It is God who will finally turn His face from you.
> Not a ruler or any other power, but God.
> But it will be your doing.



Do you live in fear every day that you might not make it?  I'm just curious.


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## Ronnie T

brentus said:


> Do you live in fear every day that you might not make it?  I'm just curious.



No.  I anxiously await His return.


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## pstrahin

hobbs27 said:


> There is a difference in repentance and asking for forgiveness. That's for another debate though. I always think of Sauls grandson Mephibosheth in the land of Lodibar (place of no pasture). David showed him love and grace by seeking him out and bringing him back and giving him riches and a place at the kings table. See David didn't deny him his birthright, and if we are saved we are born into an eternal kingdom and we are heirs.
> I bring this up because I believe we as the church often times fail our brothers that have gotten away, are back in the world. We too often condemn them to he11 instead of praying for them and asking God to use us to help them. They are not without a Father and they are enduring a spiritual beating, while being enticed by lustful things of this world. I unfortunately have been more than once a miserable comforter (job) to my brethren.
> If you are saved, you are born again in the spirit and you have a spiritual Father that will chastise you betimes, but He will always be your Father.



My sister grew up in the Church.  She was faithful for many years.  Now in her early 50's she is no longer faithful and is an alcoholic.  She would walk past the opportunity to serve God for a drink.  No matter how much I pray for her and try to encourage her, she in her present state is seperated from God.  There is no doubt that God is still her spiritual Father, and no doubt that He loves her every bit as much as he loves the most devout Christian, and if she would stop living the life she currently lives, and ask God for forgiveness for her drunkeness , God would welcome her back with open arms. But what if she doesn't? All I can do is work like it depends on me and pray like it depends on God.


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## hobbs27

Pstrahin, All you can do is pray and be a light for her. Others will pray also. I don't understand how or why God saves the people he does, but the scripture I read leads me to believe its secure. Your sister is just as deserving of salvation as any man or woman on earth, we are all deserving of he11, but only through Gods grace have we a way. I believe God can save a drunkard on his deathbed and sober him up, just as he can keep the child he called once upon a time. Prayers for you and your family.


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## Ronnie T

pstrahin said:


> My sister grew up in the Church.  She was faithful for many years.  Now in her early 50's she is no longer faithful and is an alcoholic.  She would walk past the opportunity to serve God for a drink.  No matter how much I pray for her and try to encourage her, she in her present state is seperated from God.  There is no doubt that God is still her spiritual Father, and no doubt that He loves her every bit as much as he loves the most devout Christian, and if she would stop living the life she currently lives, and ask God for forgiveness for her drunkeness , God would welcome her back with open arms. But what if she doesn't? All I can do is work like it depends on me and pray like it depends on God.



I share your concern for your sister.  

1John 2:1  My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

I got out of the judging business a couple of decades ago.  God is pleased that I did.  Verses such as the above should not be ignored.


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## spwatz

God's grace that brings salvation has appeared to all men (Titus 2:11).  God wants everyone to be saved (II Pet 3:9).  Yet most people will be lost (Matt 7:13-14).  God does not pick and choose those that are going to be saved, that would make him a respecter of people and scripture teaches that is not the case (Acts 10:34-35; Rom 2:11; Col 3:25; I Pet1:17).

We are called by the gospel (2 Thess 2:14).  We have to remain in that gospel according toI Cor 15:1-2 -Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

Notice that word "if"?  It is conditional.  You are saved "if" you hold fast, otherwise, you believed in vain.

If OSAS were true, it would be impossible to have believed in vain.

2 Pet 2:20-21 is so clear you have to have help to misunderstand it.   Vesrs 21 states, " For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them"

If OSAS were biblical and true, then when would it EVER have been better for someone to have not known the way of righteousness?  This is the person that had escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of Jesus Christ. 2 Pet 2 talks about God not sparing the unrighteous.

Rom 11 tells us that God won't spare the grafted in branch any more than he spared the natural branch. Vs 21 makes it clear that just because you were grafted doesn't mean that you can't be cut off.  They were cut off by unbelief, or in other words, they stopped obeying God.

Heb 3:18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. - This is an example for us.  We are warned, "Heb 3:12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end

Notice that conditional word "if" again.  We become partarkes of Christ "if"... 

Also notice that they "did not obey" and could not enter because of "unbelief".  Most folks have the wrong idea about faith.  They think that mental assent is faith.  That is not biblical faith.  Biblical faith is doing what God said.  Heb 11 gives examples of biblical faith.  By faith, Noah prepared an ark, or by faith the walls of Jericho fell down.  They were given instructions, complied with those instructions, they received the promise.  That is biblical faith.

I usually don't post to places like this because most people have their minds made up and force scripture to mean what they want it to mean. I'm sure many will not agree and that is just the way it is.  We will all give an account for our own selves and no one else.  We are repsonsible for our own study and actions.  God's word is understandable.  One passage does not negate another, but complimnets it.  Don't hold on to one passage at the exclusion of all others.  Even a quick reading through the New Testament shows that OSAS is false time and time again, man has free will, God is no respecter of persons, and that in order to be pleasing to God, we must DO his will.  That earns us NOTHING, but we cannot have saving faith without actions.  Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all those who obey him - Heb 5:9


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## Artfuldodger

1 John 2:3-6
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

How do we reconcile this if OSAS is true? Is this the scripture the OP was looking for? Are keeping these commandments just fruit or works? Why did Jesus call them commandments instead of fruits or guidelines? Does this verse even pertain to us?

Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. (2 John 1:9)
Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. (1 Corinthians 11:27)
Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. (1 John 3:15)


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## Artfuldodger

I have also noticed a lot of "If's" in the New Testament. If you believe, if you love me, if you forgive others, if you keep my commandments, just to name a few.


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## gemcgrew

spwatz said:


> Don't hold on to one passage at the exclusion of all others.


Which is exactly what you did. You wrested Titus 2:11 from it's context and then the same with 2 Peter 3:9 and so on. 

I am headed out of town for 3 or 4 days. If I have internet, I would like to focus on your first paragraph since you appear to be building from it.


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## hobbs27

I could go on and on with scripture supporting eternal salvation. Make arguments against salvation coming and going with our behavior, and how we might judge one another's relationship with the Almighty. A good friend of mine that believes in a temporary salvation and I have come to an agreement on the subject though.I promise to live the best I can so to make other Christians happy with what they see, and he promised that no matter how many times he had to get saved he would get it right at least once.


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## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> Many are called but few are chosen. God could choose you for something other than salvation. All 12 of the disciples were chosen but one was the devil.  So, the fact that you are chosen doesn’t necessarily mean that you are saved.
> Jesus says, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" (John 6:44
> ). He adds, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father" (verse 65).
> Isn't it amazing the power of God being more powerful than Jesus?[/QUOTE]
> 
> Hey... I don't have your conclusion. Jesus being God and God being Jesus... All in all....it is not a question of power. It is a question of  spiritual reality. People with great faith might be more receptive to Jesus than those snared in rejections and sins.
> 
> The devine being appreciatively present to some people and without relationship to others...hum... Love and justice to one and hate and lies to another... God drives his rain on all. One hears his shepard the other hears the wolf.


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## Artfuldodger

gordon 2 said:


> Artfuldodger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Many are called but few are chosen. God could choose you for something other than salvation. All 12 of the disciples were chosen but one was the devil.  So, the fact that you are chosen doesn’t necessarily mean that you are saved.
> Jesus says, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" (John 6:44
> ). He adds, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father" (verse 65).
> Isn't it amazing the power of God being more powerful than Jesus?[/QUOTE]
> 
> Hey... I don't have your conclusion. Jesus being God and God being Jesus... All in all....it is not a question of power. It is a question of  spiritual reality. People with great faith might be more receptive to Jesus than those snared in rejections and sins.
> 
> The devine being appreciatively present to some people and without relationship to others...hum... Love and justice to one and hate and lies to another... God drives his rain on all. One hears his shepard the other hears the wolf.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just showing that Jesus doesn't pick and choose for salvation. That power belongs to his Father. He said it not me. Jesus did choose and forgive sins but so did the disciples. They were only doing it through the power of God.
> I would like to believe that anyone who seeks salvation shall find salvation but doesn't John 6:44 tell us differently?
Click to expand...


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## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> I could go on and on with scripture supporting eternal salvation. Make arguments against salvation coming and going with our behavior, and how we might judge one another's relationship with the Almighty. A good friend of mine that believes in a temporary salvation and I have come to an agreement on the subject though.I promise to live the best I can so to make other Christians happy with what they see, and he promised that no matter how many times he had to get saved he would get it right at least once.



I wonder if we look at these issues with our minds focused on heaven? All sides could shotgun the other with scriptures, all day, all year, all decades, all centuries.... But...there is something just not right with this approach..because it amounts to stalemates or going seperate ways from the body of Christ...and this is not God--especially for christians!

Personally and perhaps too easily I find that christain are in two trenches: For one the world is a funny, a comic patient, going to hades in a handbasket, and there is no fixing it( our salvation is therefore for the "otherside"--- our perfect will be in the eternal, in the all in all; For the other side, this old world can be fixed and brought to perfection in Jesus Christ ( our salvation is therefore for the inside which acts on two spiritual plains--- the temporal and the eternal.)

The call to preach the gospel to all creation might need our prayers soon. And the question why might be our focus. What is the purpose of salvation? with thoughts like this: Jesus' resurected body, which is the model for ourselves, did it lift up creation from sleep and back to life--while yet in the world?

Now many can take on the name of Jesus--- and store it between pages, in our closets?---but His mind, can it be taken up and then put down again... stored for our safety? "You do to Me, when you do to the least of these." What is more important? God's mind or the name Jesus? Is Jesus God's mind?What spirit does Jesus give us--what is exactly all of our inheritance? and can we loose it?


maybe...


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## JB0704

hobbs27 said:


> I could go on and on with scripture supporting eternal salvation. Make arguments against salvation coming and going with our behavior, and how we might judge one another's relationship with the Almighty.



I think OSAS and predes fit together somewhat, given that individual actions play little, or zero, role in one's salvation.




hobbs27 said:


> A good friend of mine that believes in a temporary salvation and I have come to an agreement on the subject though.I promise to live the best I can so to make other Christians happy with what they see, and he promised that no matter how many times he had to get saved he would get it right at least once.



I have a question for you....since you are an OSAS believer.....is believing otherwise a "dealbreaker" as far as salvation is concerned.

Reason I ask is that I grew up OSAS.  I was taught that those who believed salvation could be lost did not have the necessary faith to achieve salvation to begin with....or....they did not view it correctly to achieve salvation.

Curious as to your position given your arangement with your friend.


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## formula1

*Re:*

Gordon:

I enjoyed your post and I rarely comment on the subject matter here.  You said the one thing I was thinking: What are we focused on?  Thanks!

As to the subject of most of this dicussion, I think it better to focus on Jesus, the author, protector and finisher of our faith, and trust Him to complete what He has started in each of us.  I am simply convinced He will do it!


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## hobbs27

JB0704 said:


> I think OSAS and predes fit together somewhat, given that individual actions play little, or zero, role in one's salvation.


 I don't see it like that. I believe all of us will stand between life and death and make the decision to surrender unto God or reject Him.




JB0704 said:


> I have a question for you....since you are an OSAS believer.....is believing otherwise a "dealbreaker" as far as salvation is concerned.
> 
> Reason I ask is that I grew up OSAS.  I was taught that those who believed salvation could be lost did not have the necessary faith to achieve salvation to begin with....or....they did not view it correctly to achieve salvation.
> 
> Curious as to your position given your arangement with your friend.



 Not a deal breaker.


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## Big7

barryl said:


> Tell us how you can take yourself out. Chapter and Verse, stay out of the Faith and Works{Mosaic Law}, Trib., Mill., 2  advent and make sure you aren't privately interpreting scripture. Tell us how Jesus wasted his time dying on the Cross at Calvary.



On Here?


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## THREEJAYS

hobbs27 said:


> I believe one has to be called to repentance, once they have heard the Gospel,and believed it. Jesus will stand at the door and knock. We can only be saved when Jesus is ready to save us. Which is one of the reasons I ask the next question.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A couple of problems that I run into when I try to make the idea of losing salvation possible is, to admit this we must admit that God makes mistakes, or He would have never offered salvation in the first place, knowing you were not able to keep it.
> The other problem is that we are saved by grace ( an undeserving love), so if we are never deserving of salvation in the first place, how in the world could we become undeserving of it?


[/COLOR

To say that losing salvation means God made a mistake is like saying that God made a mistake creating Adam knowing he would sin so that we would need salvation.


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## Artfuldodger

Doesn't waiting on God's call sound like election or predestination?
Why is it every Sunday the preacher say's you'd better hurry up and follow Jesus before it's too late. (meaning you might die)
We are suppose to tell the world about Jesus. That's our task. It's not God's responsibility. Some people have already died without ever hearing about Jesus. We have failed them. 
If everyone doesn't have a choice and must wait on a call from God then did Jesus really die for everyone?


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## Artfuldodger

Artfuldodger said:


> Many are called but few are chosen. God could choose you for something other than salvation. All 12 of the disciples were chosen but one was the devil.  So, the fact that you are chosen doesn’t necessarily mean that you are saved.
> Jesus says, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" (John 6:44
> ). He adds, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father" (verse 65).
> Isn't it amazing the power of God being more powerful than Jesus?



You just contradicted yourself. Well I'm confused. Maybe those verses where Jesus said "no one can come to me" doesn't mean salvation.
Maybe when we hear the story of Jesus, that is God's calling. When the preacher is giving the benediction, that is God calling you through the preacher.


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## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> You can't take yourself out anymore than you can put yourself in.
> It is God who adds to His kingdom daily those who are being saved.
> It is God who will spew out those.  It is God who will finally turn His face from you.
> Not a ruler or any other power, but God.
> But it will be your doing.



I must say also your last sentence contradicts your other sentences. When you are preaching and ask people to accept Jesus, do you think every unsaved person  hearing you can be saved right then and there?


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## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> You just contradicted yourself. Well I'm confused. Maybe those verses where Jesus said "no one can come to me" doesn't mean salvation.
> Maybe when we hear the story of Jesus, that is God's calling. When the preacher is giving the benediction, that is God calling you through the preacher.





Artfuldodger said:


> I must say also your last sentence contradicts your other sentences. When you are preaching and ask people to accept Jesus, do you think every unsaved person  hearing you can be saved right then and there?



Don't know.  God knows.
.


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## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> Don't know.  God knows.
> .



I don't know either but I would like to think that when I am witnessing to a down and out unbeliever and telling him that he can accept Jesus as his savior, that he really can do it right then and there. I hope that is God's call to that person.
We travel the world to tell them about Jesus. To think they don't really have a chance goes against John 3:16 which says "whosoever."


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## Artfuldodger

Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. (2 John 1:9)

I'm going to try an abide in the teachings of both God and Jesus. I want the Father & Son.


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## Artfuldodger

6:39  And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

6:40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(the will of God is that everyone that believeth have everlasting life)


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## Artfuldodger

6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

6:45  It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

6:46  Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

6:47  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

(verse 6:45 If you have heard and learned then you are called)
(verse  6:46 by the way, tells us Jesus is the only man who has ever seen God.)


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## Artfuldodger

Reading this discussion of God drawing us:

We're forgetting the next verse, 45, in the consideration of Jesus' statement. He says, "It is written in the prophets, `AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

The drawing power of Christ is a life sacrificed in love (John 3:14-17 where this figure is used for the first time). When we hear this (Romans 10:9f) AND learn it, we come. Robertson says "hath learned" is a second aorist participle. This is a voluntary response. Once we have heard, and have learned, then we come (middle voice, deponent verb).

There are those who hear Jesus' voice, but they don't learn. They reject what he has to teach, just as the Jews rejected Christ. They turned away. It is our decision to make. A paper clip is drawn to a magnet by a force. The force that draws us is when we finally learn the lesson of Christ's love.

How is a person accountable for not believing if they were never "drawn" by the Spirit?

Many of these comments have some good content regarding God does the calling and I believe God calls everyone according to Rom 1:18-25; Ecc 3:11

(here is an opposing view)

Romans 3:11, "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God".

Without God's drawning us (calling) and the His gift of the Holy Spirit we would be going the other way and would not be having this dialog.

Read about the potter starting in Romans 9:21. Thanks God we are drawn by Him.

http://www.wittenberggate.com/2004/12/john_644_what_d.html


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## Artfuldodger

I agree with this link. It's up to us to draw people to God by teaching the Word. 
Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (KJV).  
God forbid that we should fail to draw people to the Lord Jesus because we did not use the tool God put in our hands  the good news  the truth of his Word!  If we fail to use that, it is not God who is at fault.  Scripture says, “The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9). 

http://www.bereanpublishers.com/how-does-god-draw-people-to-jesus/


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> Doesn't waiting on God's call sound like election or predestination?


There is no salvation without predestination. 
"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." (Romans 8:30)


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> There is no salvation without predestination.
> "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." (Romans 8:30)



Quote from an explanation; 
 To keep everything together, one should really start with verse 28:
   And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the
    called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28 KJV


We know from the entirety of the Scriptures that the call has gone out to the whole world. We also know that Christ
died for all. The called are those who respond, of their own free will, to accept, to submit, and to love God.
Everyone has received an invitation, but not everyone has accepted or acted on that invitation.

Christ clearly tells us who the called are. See The Parable of the Wedding Banquet in Matthew 22:2-14 and The
Parable of the Great Banquet in Luke 14: 15-24.

J. Vernon McGee’s “Illustration of the turtle” is another way to show who the called are:

    “Suppose you go down to a swamp, and there are ten turtles. You say to the turtles, “I’d like to teach you to
    fly.” Nine of them say, “We’re not interested. We like it down here; we feel comfortable in this environment.”
    One turtle says, “Yes, I’d like to fly.” That is the one which is called, and that is the one which is taught to fly.
    Now that doesn’t have anything in the world to do with the other turtles. They are turtles because they are
    turtles. My friend, the lost are lost because they want it that way.”  —J. Vernon McGee’s Thru The Bible
    commentary on Romans.

http://www.freewill-predestination.com/romans8.html


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## tjbones

*Once saved...*

"Once saved, always saved" and "Eternal security" are not in the Bible but are man-inspired to support a belief that a person cannot lose salvation...The Bible says... Rom 1:7 "to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints..."...So Romans was written to BELIEVERS... Rom 8:12 "So then BRETHREN, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh"...verse :13"for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live." SO...we have Paul telling believers that they will die if they live by the flesh... I don't care if Charles Stanley AND Harry Potter say differently...Since most everybody is going to die a physical death, this is obviously referring to that other death. IF OSAS is true, then Rom 8:13 is a lie. Hebrews 6:4-9 ... you read it...but pay particular attention to 6:6..."and then have FALLEN AWAY it is impossible to renew them AGAIN to repentance..."...Don't know about anybody else but I have never "fallen away" from a tree I was never in...then there is that "impossible to renew them AGAIN to repentance..."...Folks have tried to take a passage that is OBVIOUSLY referring to a believer here and make it something else...but the key is "again to repentance"...Ya have to have done something once in order to do it "AGAIN."...some will take that but say, "Well yes, but that doesn't mean they lost their salvation!"...but read verse 8...that "close to being cursed and it ends up being burned" thing... I'm not arguing with anybody...I didn't write those verses... But if the man-made eternal security thing is true then I don't see how these verses can be valid...Rev 2:7..."To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God."..Nothing about a moment of faith leading to eternal security there... Rev 2:10...be faithful until death and I will give you the crown of life."...How can "osas" be true if this verse is true?...Eternal security really is about that repentance thing back in Rom 8...God gives you grace for your humanity and ignorance...But He fully expects you to become more mature in faith and knowledge...He expects you to be "putting (notice the continuing process thing here) to death the deeds of the flesh"... I know it is fruitless to try and change those who believe in osas... Please don't write back with different verses and man-splaining why this and that...the verses say what they say and the Bible says what it says...Until you can show me where somebody goofed up translating the Greek - and you won't - then all I really would like to hear is why you believe in your denominational doctrine as opposed to what the Bible says.  Be blessed.


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## hobbs27

tjbones said:


> "Once saved, always saved" and "Eternal security" are not in the Bible but are man-inspired to support a belief that a person cannot lose salvation....



So how many times have you lost it? Do you have it now? Since we all know salvation is of the Lord...on average how many times does He make the mistake of giving it to someone just to have to take it away again?


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## hobbs27

Ive got a few days of much needed vacation Im taking. So over the next few days I would love to hear from those that believe salvation can come and go...How was it the second time around?...what about the third time? Does it just keep getting better and better?
 How about when you were lost..then saved...then lost again? How does that feel? To know God shed his grace on you...then realized He missed His target and took it away...only to repent of that at a later time and give it back to you? 
 I don't want to see scripture of how someone you know (personally judged) lost salvation...its time to hear the personal testimony of how salvtion is the second time around..or how is it to be lost after once being saved? Thanks.


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## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> Ive got a few days of much needed vacation Im taking. So over the next few days I would love to hear from those that believe salvation can come and go...How was it the second time around?...what about the third time? Does it just keep getting better and better?
> How about when you were lost..then saved...then lost again? How does that feel? To know God shed his grace on you...then realized He missed His target and took it away...only to repent of that at a later time and give it back to you?
> I don't want to see scripture of how someone you know (personally judged) lost salvation...its time to hear the personal testimony of how salvtion is the second time around..or how is it to be lost after once being saved? Thanks.



Even though I believe the Bible teaches that salvation given can be lost or taken away, I don't believe I've ever experienced the mess you've described above.
Loss of salvation isn't simply a matter of committing a sin and losing salvation; then repenting so you can get salvation back.  

I might even try to stay out of this discussion.


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## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> Ive got a few days of much needed vacation Im taking. So over the next few days I would love to hear from those that believe salvation can come and go...How was it the second time around?...what about the third time? Does it just keep getting better and better?
> How about when you were lost..then saved...then lost again? How does that feel? To know God shed his grace on you...then realized He missed His target and took it away...only to repent of that at a later time and give it back to you?
> I don't want to see scripture of how someone you know (personally judged) lost salvation...its time to hear the personal testimony of how salvtion is the second time around..or how is it to be lost after once being saved? Thanks.



Ridiculous.


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## Ronnie T

2 Timothy 2:11-12  The saying is trustworthy, for: If we have died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us; 

Ezekiel 18:24-26  But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die. “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die. 

John 10:28  I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 

Romans 3:23-25  For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 

Romans 11:22  Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 

2 Peter 1:9-10  For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.


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## Artfuldodger

Can't a person believe he personally has "blessed assurance" but at the same time believe someone else has fallen?


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Can't a person believe he personally has "blessed assurance" but at the same time believe someone else has fallen?



 Evidently. I hear people making the accusation all the time that you can lose your salvation...I never hear the testimony of someone that has lost it! 
 They always point fingers and shout scripture that you can lose it, but those that point the fingers never seem to lose it. Surely someone has a testimony they can share of losing it..somewhere in the world.


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## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> Ridiculous.



What?...It can hapen according to scripture, but it is ridiculous to expect it to ever happen? Wheres the evidence?


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## formula1

*Re:*

I have lost my view of God at times in my life,  but God in is infinite and endless supply of mercy and grace never turned His back on me or lost His view of me. He restored my soul whenever I would cry out and return to Him.

I surmise from my own experience that when God saves a person that person cannot lose what is given by God and completed by God on the cross.  He is relentless in pursuing His own, of that I am sure.

Yet there is a point where man can go directly opposed to God to an extreme unbelief and rejection of the God that bought him.  I will just say please don't go there, for it is a dreadful thing when the cross is trampled upon!


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Evidently. I hear people making the accusation all the time that you can lose your salvation...I never hear the testimony of someone that has lost it!
> They always point fingers and shout scripture that you can lose it, but those that point the fingers never seem to lose it. Surely someone has a testimony they can share of losing it..somewhere in the world.



Kinda like the people who believe in "Election" are always elected. Sometimes their parents were elected and their children are elected. My great grandparents were elected but somewhere along the way some of my kinfolk quit getting elected.


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## Artfuldodger

The only bad thing about believeing a certain way is we then having reconcile all the verses that don't support our beliefs. As an example if one does  believe in OSAS ther are verses about fallling, losing faith, keeping faith till the end, etc.
Now if one doesn't believe in OSAS there are plenty of verses on eternal security to back up that belief.
I know this isn't what you are looking for but the only person you'll get to testify is a person who was at one time been a Christian and finally returned. It will still depend on whether you think he lost his faith or never had it or never lost it.
You might can get some Atheist to testify why they were once a true believer of Christ but you might say "they were never a believer."


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## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> Can't a person believe he personally has "blessed assurance" but at the same time believe someone else has fallen?



I don't think it's within my ability to start deciding who has fallen or who might have fallen.
The scriptural proof that it's possible is there!!  That's the answer to the latest question.

I don't believe there's a way for you and I to discuss who might have fallen, if anyone did.  But scripturally, it's possible.  That's all.


----------



## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> Evidently. I hear people making the accusation all the time that you can lose your salvation...I never hear the testimony of someone that has lost it!
> They always point fingers and shout scripture that you can lose it, but those that point the fingers never seem to lose it. Surely someone has a testimony they can share of losing it..somewhere in the world.



My opinion and your opinion doesn't actually matter.  But scripture is what it is.  But if I'm ever to point a finger, it should be to myself, not to someone else.


----------



## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> What?...It can hapen according to scripture, but it is ridiculous to expect it to ever happen? Wheres the evidence?



The point of the scripture for you and I is that God is still almighty.
Our expectations for our personal lives and God's compassion have little to do with it.
The scriptures prove that we best be careful claiming that all saved persons are eternally saved and God can never change it?  God can change it!

We can argue this point until the cows come home, but the scripture is there.
We can claim that God's compassion would never allow God to do what the scripture says He can do, but we'd be stepping over the line.

Imagine being a recipient of the letter from Peter.  As you held the letter in your hand to read or you heard an elder read it to the congregation, and it included this verse....  2 Peter 1:9-10 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall."

Those two verses aren't - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -able verses.  Those are verses of instruction from one who is inspired, to those who have taken up their cross.


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## Artfuldodger

I'd hate to fall from God's grace period. This means if i'm not saved, once saved, never saved, always saved, or thinking about becoming saved.
I agree thoses verse are in the Bible and they do pertain to someone. We don't know who has fallen no more than we know who God has granted grace too.

Matt 24:10-13
10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
(NIV)
Ezek 18:23-28
23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust?
26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die.
27 But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life.
28 Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die.
Matt 6:14-15
14 "For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 "But if you do not forgive men, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
Matt 25:34-46
34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me {something} to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You drink?
38 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39 'And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, {even} the least {of them,} you did it to Me.'
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me {nothing} to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then they themselves also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
45 "Then He will answer them, saying, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


----------



## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> The point of the scripture for you and I is that God is still almighty.
> Our expectations for our personal lives and God's compassion have little to do with it.
> The scriptures prove that we best be careful claiming that all saved persons are eternally saved and God can never change it?  God can change it!
> 
> We can argue this point until the cows come home, but the scripture is there.
> We can claim that God's compassion would never allow God to do what the scripture says He can do, but we'd be stepping over the line.
> 
> Imagine being a recipient of the letter from Peter.  As you held the letter in your hand to read or you heard an elder read it to the congregation, and it included this verse....  2 Peter 1:9-10 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall."
> 
> 
> Those are verses of instruction from one who is inspired, to those who have taken up their cross.



There is a problem in this verse and your understanding of it. To practice those qualities is to work....I dont have a work based salvation. My salvation is a gift from God almighty that gave me the faith, that He may shed His grace upon me.....Surely this verse is not about losing salvation.


----------



## barryl

This thread started or happened as a result of a conversation with my brother who is steeped in the beliefs of the {AOG} church. After two yrs. of studying my Bible to see if I could try to learn why my sibling held to this belief. So heres my findings #1, Same reason as mine at one time, a whole lot of "Dust" on the Bible. I asked my Bro. when I held up my Bible, Do you believe this is the infallible, inerrant, perfectly preserved, word of God? Guess what his reply was, "No answer", except that I,the orginator of this thread was wrong about Eternal Security. If you are constantly trying to put yourself or anyone back under{Mosaic} law{Faith and WORKS, you can lose salvation, it's all about the Dispensation{Body of Christ} we are in. Under law if you don't have both{faith and Works} you're gone. . . If you will only learn to "rightly Divide". My final authority in all matters is the KJV AV. We can have all the "HEAD" belief that there is, but according to Romans Ch. 10, if whosoeverwill does not have the "HEART" belief, well you know . . It was mentioned earlier about "not judging," as per Matt. 7:1, fruit of the Spirit, Gal. 5:22-23. What do we do about 1 Cor. 2:15, But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> This thread started or happened as a result of a conversation with my brother who is steeped in the beliefs of the {AOG} church. After two yrs. of studying my Bible to see if I could try to learn why my sibling held to this belief. So heres my findings #1, Same reason as mine at one time, a whole lot of "Dust" on the Bible. I asked my Bro. when I held up my Bible, Do you believe this is the infallible, inerrant, perfectly preserved, word of God? Guess what his reply was, "No answer", except that I,the orginator of this thread was wrong about Eternal Security. If you are constantly trying to put yourself or anyone back under{Mosaic} law{Faith and WORKS, you can lose salvation, *it's all about the Dispensation{Body of Christ} we are in*. Under law if you don't have both{faith and Works} you're gone. . . If you will only learn to "rightly Divide". My final authority in all matters is the KJV AV. We can have all the "HEAD" belief that there is, but according to Romans Ch. 10, if whosoeverwill does not have the "HEART" belief, well you know . . It was mentioned earlier about "not judging," as per Matt. 7:1, fruit of the Spirit, Gal. 5:22-23. What do we do about 1 Cor. 2:15, But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.



What if you don't subscribe to dispensationalism?  Although a pretty popular view, it's only been around for about 150 years.


----------



## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> There is a problem in this verse and your understanding of it. To practice those qualities is to work....I dont have a work based salvation. My salvation is a gift from God almighty that gave me the faith, that He may shed His grace upon me.....Surely this verse is not about losing salvation.



It isn't a matter of "my understanding" of those verses.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the basic understanding of those and other verses.

If it will make you feel better, get some white-out and cover up those verses in your Bible, sit back down and enjoy yourself.  Not my intent to coerce you or anyone else into learning from these verses.
I just posted the verses to show that the verses are there.
I'm not being sarcastic, but every single verse in the Bible is given for a reason.  Either they all apply, and sometimes it takes some real honesty on our parts to allow all verses to apply; or none of them apply.
.


----------



## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> This thread started or happened as a result of a conversation with my brother who is steeped in the beliefs of the {AOG} church. After two yrs. of studying my Bible to see if I could try to learn why my sibling held to this belief. So heres my findings #1, Same reason as mine at one time, a whole lot of "Dust" on the Bible. I asked my Bro. when I held up my Bible, Do you believe this is the infallible, inerrant, perfectly preserved, word of God? Guess what his reply was, "No answer", except that I,the orginator of this thread was wrong about Eternal Security. If you are constantly trying to put yourself or anyone back under{Mosaic} law{Faith and WORKS, you can lose salvation, it's all about the Dispensation{Body of Christ} we are in. Under law if you don't have both{faith and Works} you're gone. . . If you will only learn to "rightly Divide". My final authority in all matters is the KJV AV. We can have all the "HEAD" belief that there is, but according to Romans Ch. 10, if whosoeverwill does not have the "HEART" belief, well you know . . It was mentioned earlier about "not judging," as per Matt. 7:1, fruit of the Spirit, Gal. 5:22-23. What do we do about 1 Cor. 2:15, But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.



1Cor 2:15 is a valuable verse.  But so is another verse that Paul wrote to the same Christians.
2 Corinthians 13:5  Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?

*It serves no purpose for us to judge each other.  We need to judge ourselves!!!!!!!!

We should be helping each other.

Gal 6:1 Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted. 2 Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another. 5 For each one will bear his own load.


These following verses aren't some sort of smoke screen devised by evil people who want to destroy your beliefs in salvation.
These are statements that were hand written and delivered to people just like you and I.  Instructions.
All of these verses are worthy of careful study, especially up against many of the verses we use today to "prove" OSAS.  All these verses must fit together.

Notice especially the below verses from Romans 3, then the verses from Romans 11.
.


Ronnie T said:


> 2 Timothy 2:11-12  The saying is trustworthy, for: If we have died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;
> 
> Ezekiel 18:24-26  But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die. “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die.
> 
> John 10:28  I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
> 
> Romans 3:23-25  For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
> 
> Romans 11:22  Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
> 
> 2 Peter 1:9-10  For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.



You people who fear the word 'work' as though it's a spiritual four-lettered word need to get over it.  Salvation did not come to you through your work, but you'll find the word "work" in the New Testament 165 times.


----------



## centerpin fan

Ronnie T said:


> You people who fear the word 'work' as though it's a spiritual four-lettered word need to get over it.  Salvation did not come to you through your work, but you'll find the word "work" in the New Testament 165 times.



Exactly.  Fr. George Florovsky offers his analysis:

_"... from Luther’s perspective and emphasis any type of "works," especially that of the monks in their ascetical struggle, was considered to contradict the free nature of grace and the free gift of salvation. If one was indeed justified by faith, then—so went the line of Luther’s thought—man is not justified by "works." For Luther "justification by faith" meant an extrinsic justification, a justification totally independent from any inner change within the depths of the spiritual life of a person. For Luther "to justify"—dikaion—meant to declare one righteous or just, not "to make" righteous or just*—it is an appeal to an extrinsic justice which in reality is a spiritual fiction. Luther has created a legalism far more serious than the legalism he detected in the Roman Catholic thought and practice of his time. Morever, Luther’s legalistic doctrine of extrinsic justification is spiritually serious, for it is a legal transaction which in reality does not and can not exist. Nowhere was the emphasis on "works" so strong, thought Luther, as in monasticism. Hence, monasticism had to be rejected and rejected it was. But Luther read too much into St. Paul’s emphasis on faith, on justification by faith, and on the free gift of the grace of salvation. St. Paul is directly in controversy with Judaism, especially in his Epistle to the Romans. It is the "works of the law," the law as defined by and interpreted by and practiced by Judaism in the time of St. Paul. Our Lord has the same reaction to the externalization and mechanical understanding of the "law." Indeed, the very text of the Epistle to the Romans revels in every passage that St. Paul is comparing the external law of Judaism with the newness of the spiritual understanding of law, with the newness of the revelation of God in Jesus Christ through the Incarnation, Death, and Resurrection of our Lord. God has become Man. God has entered human history and indeed the newness is radical. But to misunderstand St. Paul’s critique of "works," to think that St. Paul is speaking of the "works" commanded by our Lord rather than the Judaic understanding of the works of the "law" is a misreading of a fundamental nature. It is true, however, that Luther had a point in considering the specific direction in which the Roman Catholic merit-system had gone as a reference point similar to the Judaic legal system. As a result of Luther’s background, as a result of his theological milieu, whenever he read anything in St. Paul about "works," he immediately thought of his own experience as a monk and the system of merit and indulgences in which he had been raised." _


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## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> You people who fear the word 'work' as though it's a spiritual four-lettered word need to get over it.  Salvation did not come to you through your work, but you'll find the word "work" in the New Testament 165 times.



Now here we are in agreement. It Is not works that salvation comes to us...I go a step farther. It is not by works that salvation will leave us. The works spoken of in the NT is those done by the Lord through us. We can fall away from God..grace... We can fail God by not allowing his works be done through us....but after reading over 2peter:1 several times now I see the warning not as a loss of salvation but a loss of the greater rewards once in heaven...You may accuse me of making that verse fit my doctrine, but I tell you I'm making that verse fit the Gospel and teachings of Jesus Christ. Peter does not contradict the teachings of Christ ,and he knew all to well what it was like to have weak faith , as he sank into the sea and cried out to Jesus..once again Jesus was there to save him of little faith.


----------



## hobbs27

The invitation is still out for anyone that has lost their salvation. I would love to hear your testimony and how it must have felt. How you may have got it back too.


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> The invitation is still out for anyone that has lost their salvation. I would love to hear your testimony and how it must have felt. How you may have got it back too.



That would be very personal for an honest person and possibly very painful...to relive--even in recall! This is the kind of stuff people will relate to pastors and doctors, people who have taken a vow to shut up and judge not!

 For example  I suggest that some folk who have committed adulty might fit the bill here. Some of the worst testimonies I have ever witnessed are the testimonies of folk that were once in biker gangs. I suggest that murder, adultry,  deliberately destroying other folks property, stealing someone's wages and food, might be worst testimonies for some christians than once being to the 99% debauchery of a biker gang.

So for  some works we can become lost again--foreigners again to eternal life-- People made blind with crippleing souls. And how could we get back in... well...repentance and knocking again...to be let in again in the light. ( the prodical son comes to mine... and heaven rejoices more of one sinner returning...)



Luke 15:7


I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
John 3:18-21


........................................................................
King James Version (KJV) John 3: 18 et all.


18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gordon 2 said:


> ........................................................................
> King James Version (KJV) John 3: 18 et all.
> 
> 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
> 
> 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
> 
> 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
> 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.



Verse 18 makes it appear that an unbeliever of the Son of God is condemned. So all of those verses about falling, losing faith, etc are written to people already condemned?
How can an already condemned person fall, he's already fallen?


----------



## M80

How do you lose something that doesn't belong to you. The bible says 1 Corinthians 6, 19. "What?  Know he not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which he have of god, and he are not your own?  Verse 20. " for ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify god in your body, and in your spirit, which are gods. 

He is the king of kings. He can't go back on what he has signed. Our names are written in the lambs book of life. He signed it and can't change it. If you study old testimont Ester that the king there couldn't go back on what he signed. 

The bible says we that are born of god CAN'T SIN. 1st John 3:9. Y'all have got to see that our flesh sins. Our inner man can't sin. Therefore you can never ever lose your salvation

Predestination-  God is all knowing. He new us before the foundations of the world. He new if we would except him or reject him. That's why he can say gods chosen people. It's like reading a book. The character made all the decisions but I read his life's story so god watched our lives already and gave us the decision to except. He knows what we chose.


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## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> That would be very personal for an honest person and possibly very painful...to relive--even in recall! This is the kind of stuff people will relate to pastors and doctors, people who have taken a vow to shut up and judge.



Gordon, the reason there is no testimony of this is because it doesn't happen. I have heard people tell of being tricked into saying they were saved only to later come under a true conviction and got to know the true Lord. Losing salvation is biblically impossible. God doesn't lie, Jesus said He would never forsake us. People are confusing discipleship with salvation. They expect us to believe that salvation is a free gift from God.....and at the same time they add a price to it by saying He then holds us to living up to certain standards...that's not free. That's mixing grace and law.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Gordon, the reason there is no testimony of this is because it doesn't happen. I have heard people tell of being tricked into saying they were saved only to later come under a true conviction and got to know the true Lord. Losing salvation is biblically impossible. God doesn't lie, Jesus said He would never forsake us. People are confusing discipleship with salvation. They expect us to believe that salvation is a free gift from God.....and at the same time they add a price to it by saying He then holds us to living up to certain standards...that's not free. That's mixing grace and law.



That's the standard answer, "they were never saved in the first place."


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> How do you lose something that doesn't belong to you. The bible says 1 Corinthians 6, 19. "What?  Know he not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which he have of god, and he are not your own?  Verse 20. " for ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify god in your body, and in your spirit, which are gods.
> 
> He is the king of kings. He can't go back on what he has signed. Our names are written in the lambs book of life. He signed it and can't change it. If you study old testimont Ester that the king there couldn't go back on what he signed.
> 
> The bible says we that are born of god CAN'T SIN. 1st John 3:9. Y'all have got to see that our flesh sins. Our inner man can't sin. Therefore you can never ever lose your salvation
> 
> Predestination-  God is all knowing. He new us before the foundations of the world. He new if we would except him or reject him. That's why he can say gods chosen people. It's like reading a book. The character made all the decisions but I read his life's story so god watched our lives already and gave us the decision to except. He knows what we chose.



1 John 3:9 
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
(You got me on that one, I'll have to think about it more.)

Erased from the Book possible?
Revelation 22:19
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> The bible says we that are born of god CAN'T SIN. 1st John 3:9. Y'all have got to see that our flesh sins. Our inner man can't sin. Therefore you can never ever lose your salvation
> QUOTE]
> 
> 1 John 1:6
> If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.
> 1 John 1:8
> If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
> 1 John 1:10
> If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
> 1 John 2:1
> My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> That's the standard answer, "they were never saved in the first place."



The ones I'm referring to made the statement themselves. Its their testimony.


----------



## barryl

centerpin fan said:


> What if you don't subscribe to dispensationalism?  Although a pretty popular view, it's only been around for about 150 years.



Don't subscribe? Well, do you have a Bible that has an O.T. and an N.T.   ???? . . .


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> That's the standard answer, "they were never saved in the first place."


That is the accurate answer. The other view implies that Christ is a fraud, a failure. Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. If one has true faith and the ability to lose it, the shame is on Christ.


----------



## barryl

Ronnie T said:


> 1Cor 2:15 is a valuable verse.  But so is another verse that Paul wrote to the same Christians.
> 2 Corinthians 13:5  Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?
> 
> *It serves no purpose for us to judge each other.  We need to judge ourselves!!!!!!!!
> 
> We should be helping each other.
> 
> Gal 6:1 Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted. 2 Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another. 5 For each one will bear his own load.
> 
> 
> These following verses aren't some sort of smoke screen devised by evil people who want to destroy your beliefs in salvation.
> These are statements that were hand written and delivered to people just like you and I.  Instructions.
> All of these verses are worthy of careful study, especially up against many of the verses we use today to "prove" OSAS.  All these verses must fit together.
> 
> Notice especially the below verses from Romans 3, then the verses from Romans 11.
> .
> 
> 
> You people who fear the word 'work' as though it's a spiritual four-lettered word need to get over it.  Salvation did not come to you through your work, but you'll find the word "work" in the New Testament 165 times.


Hey RT, I have nothing to fear, I don't work "to be saved,"
"I work because I have been saved." Have you been "Spiritually Circumcised"? Col. 2:11 If you could be {un-circumcised} you would be the first one in history. Although there is a whole bunch that claim you can be.


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## Artfuldodger

I think most everyone agree we are saved by grace alone and work because we are saved.
I think most people believe Christians still sin although we try not to live in sin. 
Personally I still sin. Now perhaps it is my flesh but I don't view "flesh" any different than I view "coming from the heart." Either way it's hard not to view myself as mind, body, & spirit when it comes to sin.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> The invitation is still out for anyone that has lost their salvation. I would love to hear your testimony and how it must have felt. How you may have got it back too.



I good person to ask would be the prodigal son. He had it all and was soon lost. His Father never quit loving him and welcomed him with open arms as most good fathers would.
He had to wait for his son to want to come home and ask for forgiveness. God doesn't force grace on anyone. He calls by the power of his Word and waits for the person to answer.

When someone has a problem such as a drug user or un-believer, the first step is for that person to admit their problem. You can't help someone who doesn't help themselves. I'll admit being an un-believer is a worse problem than being a drug user. 
The Father calls, we answer. He waits patiently for our answer.

So he got up and went to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him. (Luke 15:20)
Imagine God running towards us to welcome us back into his fold. No one can snatch you from his hands but you can.


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Don't subscribe? Well, do you have a Bible that has an O.T. and an N.T.   ???? . . .



Of course, but that's not dispensationalism.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I good person to ask would be the prodigal son. He had it all and was soon lost. His Father never quit loving him and welcomed him with open arms as most good fathers would.
> He had to wait for his son to want to come home and ask for forgiveness. God doesn't force grace on anyone. He calls by the power of his Word and waits for the person to answer.
> 
> When someone has a problem such as a drug user or un-believer, the first step is for that person to admit their problem. You can't help someone who doesn't help themselves. I'll admit being an un-believer is a worse problem than being a drug user.
> The Father calls, we answer. He waits patiently for our answer.
> 
> So he got up and went to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him. (Luke 15:20)
> Imagine God running towards us to welcome us back into his fold. No one can snatch you from his hands but you can.



I love the parble of the prodigal son...It shows that no matter how far from the father we stray..He is always our father and we always his son. Thats the bond made by blood!


----------



## Ronnie T

There's about 5 different points of view going on this morning.
Sumpum wrong ain't it?

1 Corinthians 14:33 (NASB)
33 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

just reading through this thread...and some of the replies.    Wanted to add my 2 cents...

I believe a person can loose their salvation, and we are warned throughout the NT about guarding ourselves.    I believe Hebrews was written as a warning to Christians who were turning back to Judaism.    If they were permanently saved, then Paul was wasting him time in warning those "who were once enlightened"....    (and don't say that he was just saying it was impossible for SAVED people to turn away, because he was addressing christians who were going back to the old Jewish traditions and law).   

I Cor 5 ends with a severe warning for this christian who was in bad sin.    "that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus".    obviously, this guy was in danger of "his spirit not being saved"...   

anyway....I believe christians can come to the place where they no longer believe that Jesus was God, and rose from the dead.   Maybe this belief comes about from listening to talk of evolution, or atheists conversations, etc.    who knows.   but I believe that when one comes to believe that Jesus' blood was an unholy thing....you have just given back your salvation.

(fyi....I believe very few 'once-saved, always-saved' Christians died in the coliseum      all they had to do was say, "I denounce Christ and Christianity" and they would be freed.    Then, later, while in the comfort of their home, they could just ask forgiveness!


----------



## hobbs27

Its so easy to judge all these people some of you suspect has lost salvation. I'm glad Jesus fulfilled the law, and judgment lies in the hands of God. I fear none of us could live good enough to suit one another, and we all would burn in he11 as we all deserve!


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

I Corinthians 5

12For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

13But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person

We are to judge those who are within....


----------



## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> Its so easy to judge all these people some of you suspect has lost salvation. I'm glad Jesus fulfilled the law, and judgment lies in the hands of God. I fear none of us could live good enough to suit one another, and we all would burn in he11 as we all deserve!



That's what you keep getting wrong Hobbs.  No one is judging another individual's salvation.  We're simply acknowledging the fact that the Bible, and Jesus imply that it is a possibility.

I would never judge another person's salvation.

And you're correct, we all often judge other people too harshly.  Gal 6 says,  "Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted. 2 Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.

Rather than judging each other's salvation, we should look out for each other.  Stand united against satan.
But we can't judge another's eternity.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> No one is judging another individual's salvation.


No, we are judging Christ's ability to save to the uttermost. We are judging Christ's ability to be the good Shepherd.

"He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young."


----------



## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> That's what you keep getting wrong Hobbs.  No one is judging another individual's salvation.  We're simply acknowledging the fact that the Bible, and Jesus imply that it is a possibility.



I'm slow but I'm starting to understand when I say (Salvation), and you say (salvation ). We are not talking about the same thing. Its not possible to lose the Salvation I speak of because you are born into it and made a new creature and all sin past,present, and future are forgiven at the moment of conversion!


----------



## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> I'm slow but I'm starting to understand when I say (Salvation), and you say (salvation ). We are not talking about the same thing. Its not possible to lose the Salvation I speak of because you are born into it and made a new creature and all sin past,present, and future are forgiven at the moment of conversion!


Beautiful!


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> No, we are judging Christ's ability to save to the uttermost. We are judging Christ's ability to be the good Shepherd.



I would say we are judging each other's ability to "rightly divide the word of truth", as Brother barryl puts it.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> No, we are judging Christ's ability to save to the uttermost. We are judging Christ's ability to be the good Shepherd.
> 
> "He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young."



I'm not judging Christ's ability to same.

I'm simply reading Christ's words.  And the words of those whom God gave to Him.
You have seen those words.  You have read of His teachings.  I am not limiting the power of Christ.  I know that Christ has the power to save all, even the unbeliever if He choses to.  But Christ has told us differently.

The scripture has always been there.

And Hobbs, I believe you when you say your salvation is not the kind that can be lost.  But there is a person who will be otherwise, or at least the possibility is there.  Because God's word says it is.
It isn't about my  beliefs or your beliefs.  Not about my church or your church, as though we had a church.  It's about Christ's church and what he will do.

Christ hasn't asked for our approval or disapproval to what He will do.  He has told us about today and tomorrow, and it will be.


----------



## Ronnie T

2 Peter 1 (NASB)
1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; 3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. 4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. 5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, 7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

12 Therefore, I will always be ready to remind you of these things, even though you already know them, and have been established in the truth which is present with you. 13 I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling, to stir you up by way of reminder, 14 knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15 And I will also be diligent that at any time after my departure you will be able to call these things to mind.

16 For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, “This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased”— 18 and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.

19 So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. 20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.


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## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> I'm not judging Christ's ability to same.
> 
> I'm simply reading Christ's words.  And the words of those whom God gave to Him.
> You have seen those words.  You have read of His teachings.  I am not limiting the power of Christ.  I know that Christ has the power to save all, even the unbeliever if He choses to.  But Christ has told us differently.
> 
> The scripture has always been there.


Well, allow me to distance myself even further from your man centered salvation. The Christian can sin all he wants to and remains secure in Christ. That being said, a Christian does not desire to live in sin but rather righteousness. It is not our love for Christ that constrains us, it is the love of Christ that constrains us.

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."


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## gordon 2

In my sleep I wonder.... does salvation have a purpose? Is it a purpose in itself? The author who caused salvation to happen,  did that author mean it as the end of his purpose to cause things to be? Is salvation the goal "all in all" or a means to get there?

And I ask this in my sleep, I bet regardless of how we apprehend salvation to view it differently from others can we plant beans in a garden to feed ourselves and have some left for folk less fortunate than ourselves and for ideas, notions, endevors which we act apon which we judge to be of benifit for ourselves and others?

 Now beans are sown in the soil, in the earth. The are sown in the world of man. And we can all do this in the Spirit or more or less mechanically ---  according to the purpose, or the cause we give our planting beans?

 I'm betting if we put all our minds to it, we could all individual and as a group, or groups do marvelous things for planting beans with our minds "in the Spirit". But we could also just talk about it and not do it or just do it as birds do it...

Now as beans are to the earth, I'm betting we could do alot of awesome creative and innovative stuff in the material world if we transfered our  spiritual efforts to other legumes, fruits, sawing lumber, good governments..., peace, justice, being friendly, being helpful, respectful, etc...etc...

Now my question: Is the question of "can salvation be lost" and the spiritual views or points which they seem to occupy condusive to planting beans or even turning soil? Are these viewpoints sowing spirit in the spirit? or mind into mind--when already all of Jesus sown in our minds? and material fields in the world lie fallow,  fields of what ifs? I suggest that our salvation not put to use in the material world, and left to arguments in the spiritual world is a heresy, simply. It is perhaps not a loss of salvation it is a waste of it!

In the Kingdom is this topic and the views here in this tread, which everywhere comes up yr after yr, is it amounting to a hill of beans as to what the Kingdom, what God, means all our salvation ( our common salvation in the Lord--the cross)  is meant to be or why God caused us all to be saved?

Is salvation a movie and we are movie critics, fans, or is salvation a way of life? Are we fans of the ideas surrounding salvation, or are we to its reality, with moral rigour and with humble honesty? Are we all hat and no cows? In some ways have we lost our salvation for making "works" an idea and not prayer, or a servant's offerings in the living world that is ours?


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## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> Well, allow me to distance myself even further from your man centered salvation. The Christian can sin all he wants to and remains secure in Christ. That being said, a Christian does not desire to live in sin but rather righteousness. It is not our love for Christ that constrains us, it is the love of Christ that constrains us.
> 
> "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."



Obviously, there are some things purposely excluded from the list of reasons in the verse that you quote.  There are several personal things about myself that aren't included in that list.  Several things concerning God that aren't included in that list.

You may distance yourself from me, but neither of us will be able to distance ourselves from Christ's purpose for us in our life.
And you'll have to distance yourself from verse 8 thru 15 of 2Peter 1 that I posted above.

You teach what you wish to teach!  But I'll teach both verses!
"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." 
and
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.


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## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Obviously, there are some things purposely excluded from the list of reasons in the verse that you quote.  There are several personal things about myself that aren't included in that list.  Several things concerning God that aren't included in that list.


Nothing excluded.



Ronnie T said:


> You may distance yourself from me, but neither of us will be able to distance ourselves from Christ's purpose for us in our life.


Capture that thought!



Ronnie T said:


> And you'll have to distance yourself from verse 8 thru 15 of 2Peter 1 that I posted above.


Only in regards to your interpretation.


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## Artfuldodger

I think it boils down to what happens to our freewill at salvation. Do we become Christian robots at conversion? Does the Holy Spirit take 100% control? I could only hope. If he does take total control why do we hope? Why do we drift to far from the shore? Easy for election believers but no so for freewill believers. We have choices.
Verses about us choosing:
I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse: therefore choose life Deuteronomy 30:19
But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the
River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD. Joshua 24:15
I called but you did not answer, I spoke but you did not listen. You did evil in my sight and chose what displeases me. Isaiah 65:12
You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you, declares the LORD.  Jeremiah 29:13-14
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her
chicks under her wings, but you were not willing”. Matthew 23:37 & Luke 13:34
But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Luke 13:3b
God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. Acts 17:27
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:3–4
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. Titus 2:11
...humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you. James 1:21
Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him, and will dine with him, and he with Me. Revelation 3:20

It's hard for me to see how anyone can read those verses and not see that God yearns for all to be saved. He has called, knocked, planted, longed, desired, spoke,& appeared to all men. We must answer, ask, confess, listen, repent, accept, be willing, seek, find, and mainly CHOOSE God.
Some of those verses talked about people not CHOOSING God.
God has longed to gather but many aren't WILLING.

When does a Christian quit making choices? When does a Christian's freewill end?


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## Artfuldodger

Hard to deny man does have a CHOICE. The question is when does our choice end? 
Is Grace resistible? I say it is, many don't agree. Faith is a gift from God just as grace is. Gifts can be returned. God won't revoke either but you can, your choice.
Choices, choices, choices.

No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. (1 John 2:23)
And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’ (Acts 2:21)
To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” (Acts 10:43)
I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. (John 12:46)
For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” (Romans 10:11)
Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. (2 John 1:9)
Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. (1 Corinthians 11:27)
Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. (1 John 3:15)
The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price. (Revelation 22:17)


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## Artfuldodger

Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. (2 John 1:9)

I'm greedy, I want both. The Father and the Son. You can't have one without the other. Looks like I do have to make a choice though.(My choice)
Do I want to abide in the teaching or not? Why is that in the Bible if I don't have to Abide in the teaching? It doesn't say abide if you feel like it, either way your going to Heaven. It's pretty much saying, if you want to see God you must choose Jesus and abide in his teaching.

So what say you? Does a Christian have to abide in the teaching of Christ to have the Father and the Son?
 I agree every Christian should want to abide, should yearn to abide, should choose to abide. 
What I'm asking is 2John 1:9 stating we must abide? If it is then we as Christians have a choice.


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. Titus 2:11
> 
> It's hard for me to see how anyone can read those verses and not see that God yearns for all to be saved.


I will show you with one. Titus 2:11 is showing that salvation is not just to the Jews. It is not saying for all men without exception.

"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:" (Romans 16:25,26)


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## BAR308

gemcgrew said:


> The Christian can sin all he wants to and remains secure in Christ.



WOW, did you really just say that? we must be reading from 2 different bibles. cuz my bible says. 

1) he who sins wilfully, after receiving the truth no longer has a sacrifice for his sins...

2) Jesus said, "depart from me ye who practices lawlessness". Maybe Jesus didnt know the bible, huh? 

3) John said, "he who sins (wilfully) is of his father the devil." and also "the child of G-d CANNOT sin". maybe you should read 1 John for the first time... and tell us what you gather from that little book of G-d.

now i know why i dont venture in here too often. friend, there are hundreds of verses like these...  did not Jesus say you can do ALL things thru him who gives you strength... why do you not believe that? ALL things includes holiness.


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## gemcgrew

BAR308 said:


> WOW, did you really just say that?


Yes, but that is not all that I said. Please read again. 

Paul also addressed this.

"Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid..."



BAR308 said:


> maybe you should read 1 John for the first time... and tell us what you gather from that little book of G-d.


I gather that we have an advocate.

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"


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## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> 9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.



Ronnie, I recently started a thread on judgement day to better understand what folks here thought it was about. I found most believed it was to judge the believer, and their rewards or lack of.
 There is nothing in these verses that seperates the believer from Christ,       the warning is to work out their salvation..that they may enter heaven more abundantly....I'm reading these careful to make no mistake...if you teach these verses seperate the believer from God, you're teaching it wrong brother.


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## gordon 2

We have now, it Seems a National Bible Society, to propagate King James's Bible, through all Nations. Would it not be better to apply these pious Subscriptions, to purify Christendom from the Corruptions of Christianity; than to propagate those Corruptions in Europe Asia, Africa and America! ... Conclude not from all this, that I have renounced the Christian religion, or that I agree with Dupuis in all his Sentiments. Far from it. I see in every Page, Something to recommend Christianity in its Purity and Something to discredit its Corruptions. ... The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount contain my Religion.
 John Adam's Letter to Thomas Jefferson, November 4, 1816
---------------------------------------------------------------------------


Within salvation or christianity there are many corruptions and therefore a fall from it-- chriatianity-- or a fall from grace, is possible... if only for John Adam's worry.

You shall know them by their fruits. I suggest that the great american nation, the first nation founded on protestant perscriptions--from the rock of puritanism which is its cornerstone... which is the animator of this tread...is the fruit of the teaching of John Calvin in the 16th century. Now can America or americans, take itself/themselves out of salvation? Like this tread... we will have yrs and lifetimes and centuries to worry it. From the time Calvanism is gleaned off the page and applied to realilty---their is a leak in the airthight chamber of it. In reality, it looses its seal. And this is the bases of my bet... on it: The tree of Calvin's salvation once in a while brings forth a John Adams.


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## Israel

gordon 2 said:


> We have now, it Seems a National Bible Society, to propagate King James's Bible, through all Nations. Would it not be better to apply these pious Subscriptions, to purify Christendom from the Corruptions of Christianity; than to propagate those Corruptions in Europe Asia, Africa and America! ... Conclude not from all this, that I have renounced the Christian religion, or that I agree with Dupuis in all his Sentiments. Far from it. I see in every Page, Something to recommend Christianity in its Purity and Something to discredit its Corruptions. ... The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount contain my Religion.
> John Adam's Letter to Thomas Jefferson, November 4, 1816
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> Within salvation or christianity there are many corruptions and therefore a fall from it-- chriatianity-- or a fall from grace, is possible... if only for John Adam's worry.
> 
> You shall know them by their fruits. I suggest that the great american nation, the first nation founded on protestant perscriptions--from the rock of puritanism which is its cornerstone... which is the animator of this tread...is the fruit of the teaching of John Calvin in the 16th century. Now can America or americans, take itself/themselves out of salvation? Like this tread... we will have yrs and lifetimes and centuries to worry it. From the time Calvanism is gleaned off the page and applied to realilty---their is a leak in the airthight chamber of it. In reality, it looses its seal. And this is my bet... on it.


well, at least you are quite generous with your time allotment...


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## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> Ronnie, I recently started a thread on judgement day to better understand what folks here thought it was about. I found most believed it was to judge the believer, and their rewards or lack of.
> There is nothing in these verses that seperates the believer from Christ,       the warning is to work out their salvation..that they may enter heaven more abundantly....I'm reading these careful to make no mistake...if you teach these verses seperate the believer from God, you're teaching it wrong brother.



I will be careful to only teach those verses just as the author presented them.  I'll not add to or take from any of them.  I'll let the verses speak for themselves.

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." 
and

9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.


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## gordon 2

Israel said:


> well, at least you are quite generous with your time allotment...



Yes, I suppose. Some would say a squanderer- a pauper. But I have a dream, I have  dream. The kind that sends nobodies to Kings.  And all the time hoping that I could deminish and others increase. Ha!

Knowing the road to perdition is a knife that cuts on two edges. When that knife is pointed at someone, the handle usually cuts the hand as well. What is it in christianity that we like to point each other's walks to hades at the expense of creation itself? an internal debate that is yeast to no bread, and a pruning that cripples the Cross.

Also, as you probably have noted, I don't like to post in treads like these, because I'm out of my league. I'm poor at mind cementics.


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## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> I will be careful to only teach those verses just as the author presented them.  I'll not add to or take from any of them.  I'll let the verses speak for themselves.



 This is good, now we can clearly see that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that no where in 2peter are Christians warned of losing their salvation we can thank God for these warnings we have in scripture that if we heed we can enter heaven more abundantly.

I assume Hebrews 6 will be the next we need to cover?


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## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> This is good, now we can clearly see that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that no where in 2peter are Christians warned of losing their salvation we can thank God for these warnings we have in scripture that if we heed we can enter heaven more abundantly.
> 
> I assume Hebrews 6 will be the next we need to cover?



You can repeat those words 10 times a day, but Jesus Christ is the one who decides.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble


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## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> You can repeat those words 10 times a day, but Jesus Christ is the one who decides.
> 9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble



You would think the word "blind" here would make it obvious that he is referring to an unbeliever. A professing believer, but an unbeliever.


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## barryl

barryl said:


> Tell us how you can take yourself out. Chapter and Verse, stay out of the Faith and Works{Mosaic Law}, Trib., Mill., 2  advent and make sure you aren't privately interpreting scripture. Tell us how Jesus wasted his time dying on the Cross at Calvary.


 In, Out, In, Out, So it depends on what "we do or don't do",{WORKS}. Hobbs27 asked a "Gigantic" question to the folks that have lost salvation, got it back , lost it, got it back? I asked "Have  you been Spiritually Circumcised?" Col. 2:11 No answer yet, Tell us how your God ain't able to keep you after he gives you the "Free" Gift of Salvation!!! Beats all I have ever seen how the creation tells the Creator the rules. 2 Peter Ch. 2 1:10 Christian Virtues, take a minute, "make your calling and election sure".


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## barryl

centerpin fan said:


> Of course, but that's not dispensationalism.


Awwwwww, Come on man! I know you got a Websters Dictionary.


----------



## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> You can repeat those words 10 times a day, but Jesus Christ is the one who decides.
> 9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble





gemcgrew said:


> You would think the word "blind" here would make it obvious that he is referring to an unbeliever. A professing believer, but an unbeliever.



All I ask you to do is reread the chapter.
That chapter doesn't come close to says what you say.


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## M80

No one can snatch you from his hands but you can
Quote

You can't remove yourself from his hand. When we are born into his spirit we are still his children no matter what. The prodigal son was still his fathers son. Nothing can seperates us from the love of Christ.


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## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> In, Out, In, Out, So it depends on what "we do or don't do",{WORKS}. Hobbs27 asked a "Gigantic" question to the folks that have lost salvation, got it back , lost it, got it back? I asked "Have  you been Spiritually Circumcised?" Col. 2:11 No answer yet, Tell us how your God ain't able to keep you after he gives you the "Free" Gift of Salvation!!! Beats all I have ever seen how the creation tells the Creator the rules. 2 Peter Ch. 2 1:10 Christian Virtues, take a minute, "make your calling and election sure".



He isn't just my God, He's the God of the universe.  And He has the power to save a possum if He choses to.  But in fact, Peter, Paul and Jesus Himself indicates there is a point that Christ will not.

It happened with Adam and Eve.  It happen with Nineveh, it happened with the people of Israel, and Jesus and His apostles taught that His death on the cross was not symbolic of God rolling over onto His back to do the 'dying cockroach' for the world.

The creation does not tell God who He will save and not save.  And neither do you.  God will choose; individually.

*Explain this to me......  "Not all who say unto me Lord Lord will enter into the kingdom of heaven."?  
.....................................................Now, back to mowing grass.


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## Artfuldodger

The group of people who make up what we call Christians contains unbelievers. These unbelievers think they are Christian but they aren't.
Now we can add people who now say they are Atheist but are still Christians just because they once were. Christianity is like a cult, you can never leave. That is some amazing grace.


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## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> I good person to ask would be the prodigal son. He had it all and was soon lost. His Father never quit loving him and welcomed him with open arms as most good fathers would.
> He had to wait for his son to want to come home and ask for forgiveness. God doesn't force grace on anyone. He calls by the power of his Word and waits for the person to answer.
> 
> When someone has a problem such as a drug user or un-believer, the first step is for that person to admit their problem. You can't help someone who doesn't help themselves. I'll admit being an un-believer is a worse problem than being a drug user.
> The Father calls, we answer. He waits patiently for our answer.
> 
> So he got up and went to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him. (Luke 15:20)
> Imagine God running towards us to welcome us back into his fold. No one can snatch you from his hands but you can.





Ronnie T said:


> He isn't just my God, He's the God of the universe.  And He has the power to save a possum if He choses to.  But in fact, Peter, Paul and Jesus Himself indicates there is a point that Christ will not.
> 
> It happened with Adam and Eve.  It happen with Nineveh, it happened with the people of Israel, and Jesus and His apostles taught that His death on the cross was not symbolic of God rolling over onto His back to do the 'dying cockroach' for the world.
> 
> The creation does not tell God who He will save and not save.  And neither do you.  God will choose; individually.
> 
> *Explain this to me......  "Not all who say unto me Lord Lord will enter into the kingdom of heaven."?
> .....................................................Now, back to mowing grass.



Because they are false teacher or even false preacher that where never saved in the first place. I've seen preachers get saved that thought they announced their calling to preach but never was. My uncle taught Sunday school and lead the choir for 15 years lost and got saved at age 33. Many will say to The Lord, didn't I do this in your name and was never saved and hear depart from me. 

The scripture you gave about their doesn't remain anymore sacrifice refers to a Christian who willfully sins knowing he/she is. Kinda like premeditated murder. Knowing its wrong and going ahead and doing it. That verse means you will pay for that sin on earth. You reap what you sowe


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## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> It happened with Adam and Eve.


Terrible analogy. They did not remain lost. The Lord sought them like the good Shepherd and they were reconciled.


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## Artfuldodger

I have tried really hard to become an election/predestination believer. I have also tried to become a OSAS believer. Almost had it for awhile. I've been close a few times. There are verses in the Bible to back up Election & OSAS. But those verses don't jive with the verse I mentioned earlier about me choosing.
I've prayed about it, read about it, asked the Holy Spirit about it and was always brought back to believing in freewill and falling from grace. It's what is in my heart. It's what I think is in the Bible so whether I like it or agree with it, it's in there.
I don't particularly like the stuff in the Bible about women & homosexuals but I have no choice in not following the Bible. I really wish the gay stuff wasn't in there because I don't personally feel that way but it is. I'm just showing how I feel about putting my views aside to follow scripture. I truly wish I did believe in election & OSAS.


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## M80

gemcgrew said:


> Terrible analogy. They did not remain lost. The Lord sought them like the good Shepherd and they were reconciled.



Amen and to add to that. They never was saved in the first place. There was no salvation till Jesus died on the cross


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> There are verses in the Bible to back up Election & OSAS. But those verses don't jive with the verse I mentioned earlier about me choosing.





Artfuldodger said:


> I don't particularly like the stuff in the Bible about women & homosexuals but I have no choice in not following the Bible.


"A double minded man is unstable in all his ways."


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> I have tried really hard to become an election/predestination believer. I have also tried to become a OSAS believer. Almost had it for awhile. I've been close a few times. There are verses in the Bible to back up Election & OSAS. But those verses don't jive with the verse I mentioned earlier about me choosing.
> I've prayed about it, read about it, asked the Holy Spirit about it and was always brought back to believing in freewill and falling from grace. It's what is in my heart. It's what I think is in the Bible so whether I like it or agree with it, it's in there.
> I don't particularly like the stuff in the Bible about women & homosexuals but I have no choice in not following the Bible. I really wish the gay stuff wasn't in there because I don't personally feel that way but it is. I'm just showing how I feel about putting my views aside to follow scripture. I truly wish I did believe in election & OSAS.




Please don't take me the wrong way, but it doesn't matter what you think or believe. It's what the bible says. It doesn't matter if you believe it or not, scripture doesn't contridict itself. The bibles says let all men be liers but god the truth


----------



## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> Amen and to add to that. They never was saved in the first place. There was no salvation till Jesus died on the cross



Funny.  There was no death until God punished and removed Adam from the garden.  Adam had the ultimate in salvation.
.


----------



## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> Amen and to add to that. They never was saved in the first place. There was no salvation till Jesus died on the cross


I understand what you are saying. However, scripture is clear in that "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.”(2 Timothy 1:9-10)

“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”(Romans 8:28-30)

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.”(Ephesians 1:3-6)


----------



## Ronnie T

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
 How can you be saved without the light of God? Likewise, how can you lose the light of God, and yet be saved? Here Jesus is threatening to remove the 'candlestick' from the church unless they repented...and I don't think He makes idle threats.


----------



## Ronnie T

1Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.
 Here we are told that some people shall depart from the faith. You cannot depart from something that you were never in. You can't depart from the Atlanta airport, if you were never in Atlanta.


----------



## M80

How in the world could Adam be saved before Jesus died on the cross. There wasn't any salvation. The old covenant versus the new covenant that Hebrews talks about. Old Testament people looked towards Christ. That's why they had yearly sacrifices to cover their sins. That all ended when Jesus became the supreme sacrifice.  Jesus blood washes away our sins


----------



## Ronnie T

1st Cor 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. 
Some people want to interpret this as Paul as saying that if he 'fails the test' he would merely be getting fewer rewards. Do we have scriptural support to prove that those who actually fail will indeed end up straggling into the kingdom?


----------



## Ronnie T

But what about save by grace?


Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men. Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world. Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

What does the grace of God that brings salvation do?


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> But what about save by grace?
> 
> 
> Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men. Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world. Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
> 
> What does the grace of God that brings salvation do?


See post 118


----------



## M80

Mr. Ronnie, we will never see eye to eye on this matter cause I don't know what version of the bible you are using. I use the King James Version. I'm not wanting to chang the subject. These new so called bibles add and take verses out of the bible. I know this is going to start all kinds of responses to me about the king James being another version too but it is a translation, not a version


----------



## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> How in the world could Adam be saved before Jesus died on the cross. There wasn't any salvation. The old covenant versus the new covenant that Hebrews talks about. Old Testament people looked towards Christ. That's why they had yearly sacrifices to cover their sins. That all ended when Jesus became the supreme sacrifice.  Jesus blood washes away our sins



A Surety! 
"By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament."(Hebrews 7:22) 
Just as Judah became Surety for Benjamin. 
"And Judah said unto Israel his father, Send the lad with me, and we will arise and go; that we may live, and not die, both we, and thou, and also our little ones. I will be surety for him; of my hand shalt thou require him: if I bring him not unto thee, and set him before thee, then let me bear the blame for ever:"(Genesis 43: 8,9)


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> The group of people who make up what we call Christians contains unbelievers. These unbelievers think they are Christian but they aren't.
> Now we can add people who now say they are Atheist but are still Christians just because they once were. Christianity is like a cult, you can never leave. That is some amazing grace.



What's this we you speak of, got a mouse in your pocket?.


----------



## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> How in the world could Adam be saved before Jesus died on the cross. There wasn't any salvation. The old covenant versus the new covenant that Hebrews talks about. Old Testament people looked towards Christ. That's why they had yearly sacrifices to cover their sins. That all ended when Jesus became the supreme sacrifice.  Jesus blood washes away our sins



I understand now.  Without Christ, Adam was doomed to hel l.  Right?


----------



## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> But what about save by grace?
> 
> 
> Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men. Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world. Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
> 
> What does the grace of God that brings salvation do?





gemcgrew said:


> See post 118



I've already seen post 118.
Now how about this one?
Teach your sunday school class about this verse.
.


----------



## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> You can repeat those words 10 times a day, but Jesus Christ is the one who decides.
> 9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble



Ronnie, I agree this letter and this warning is addressed to the saved of the church, but no where in the letter does it say that believers are in danger of losing salvation.  You read it again and again..its not there! 
We do have brothers that are not working out their salvation as they should...and part of that is our fault..oh me. I'm not a perfect servant of my Lord and I need to do more, I'm reminded of this often by the Holy Spirit. These Christians that have wondered back into the world..gone astray from the church, forgotten what Jesus did for them that they have everlasting life, and are blind . They must truly be miserable and have no awards awaiting them in heaven... but because they received the promise from God spoken of in verse 4....and the fact that God cannot lie and therefore keeps His promise. They will make it to heaven...although their entrance won't be as abundantly as those that were diligent to make their call and election sure. Verse 10,11.
 That's book!


----------



## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> Mr. Ronnie, we will never see eye to eye on this matter cause I don't know what version of the bible you are using. I use the King James Version. I'm not wanting to chang the subject. These new so called bibles add and take verses out of the bible. I know this is going to start all kinds of responses to me about the king James being another version too but it is a translation, not a version



I assure you when you compare my scripture quotes to your Bible everything will match.

And nope, we cannot argue bible versions.   
.


----------



## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> I understand now.  Without Christ, Adam was doomed to hel l.  Right?



Aren't we all?


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> I've already seen post 118.
> Now how about this one?
> Teach your sunday school class about this verse.
> .


This is what grace accomplishes in each believer.


----------



## Ronnie T

But what about saved by grace?


Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men. Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world. Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

What does the grace of God that brings salvation do?




gemcgrew said:


> This is what grace accomplishes in each believer.



We are in agreement.


----------



## M80

Ronnie T said:


> I understand now.  Without Christ, Adam was doomed to hel l.  Right?



Abraham's bosom. This is where the ones that had faith in god went. The rich man went to he11. There was a great gulf fixed that seperated them. It was what Jesus told the theif on the tree. Today thou will be with me in paradise. Jesus went to paradise when he died on Calvery to lead the captive free. Ephesians 4:9,10. You see they couldn't enter heaven. 1st Corinthians 15:50.  They had not been cleansed. They have been waiting on The Lord. Hebrews 10:1-18

He took them to heaven with him and presented his own blood becoming the high priest  Hebrews 9:1-14


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> In, Out, In, Out, So it depends on what "we do or don't do",{WORKS}.



See post 82.


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Awwwwww, Come on man! I know you got a Websters Dictionary.



Actually, I don't, but feel free to offer your definition.


----------



## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> Please don't take me the wrong way, but it doesn't matter what you think or believe.



That applies to you as well. 




mwilliams80 said:


> It's what the bible says.



We all agree on what the Bible says.  We just disagree on what it means.  Christians have been disagreeing for 2,000 years.


----------



## M80

centerpin fan said:


> That applies to you as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We all agree on what the Bible says.  We just disagree on what it means.  Christians have been disagreeing for 2,000 years.



I'm not giving what I believe but what thus say The Lord. Hard to argue that


----------



## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> I'm not giving what I believe but what thus say The Lord.



No, you're arguing your interpretation.

Here's 1 Peter 3:21:

"Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

Do you agree with the part I've highlighted?


----------



## M80

KJV
1st Peter 3:20,21. Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 
      The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

You got me on interpretation on this one because it can't take away the filth (sin) of the flesh. So no I don't agree with what is highlighted


----------



## centerpin fan

Here are a couple more:

1 Cor 15:29:

"Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead?"

Mark 16:17-18:

"And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”


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## M80

I understand what your getting at on interpreting verses


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## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> I understand what your getting at on interpreting verses


----------



## Ronnie T

Interpreting verses:  "When they say something I don't want them to say, I interpret them."

Is that right?


----------



## Ronnie T

centerpin fan said:


> No, you're arguing your interpretation.
> 
> Here's 1 Peter 3:21:
> 
> "Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"
> 
> Do you agree with the part I've highlighted?



Either the above verse is incorrect and a lie, or it's part of the inspired word of God.  Assuming that it is true and a part of the inspired word, how can it be true?  How, knowing everything else you know about God's word, can you resolve the issue of the above verse?
.


----------



## M80

centerpin fan said:


>



I just want you to know I will not argue with people about the bible.  I try my best to help people first with salvation cause that is number one after we receive salvation.  Second I try to help people struggling with what the bible says, arguing doesn't edify The Lord. It only hurts lost people that read this or confuses weaker Christians.


----------



## Ronnie T

I'd love for everyone to read what CS Lewis says about "faith" and "works".  It's enlightening and makes common sense.

"Christians have often disputed as to whether what leads the Christian home is good actions, or Faith in Christ. I have no right really to speak on such a difficult question, but it does seem to me like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most necessary. A serious moral effort is the only thing that will bring you to the point where you throw up the sponge. Faith in Christ is the only thing to save you from dispair at that point: and out of that Faith in Him good action must inevitably come. There are two parodies of the truth which different sets of Christians have, in the past, been accused by other Christians of believing: perhaps they may make the truth clearer. One set were accused of saying, "Good actions are all that matters. The best good action is charity. The best kind of charity is giving money. The best thing to give money to is the Church. So hand us over 10,000 pounds and we will see you through." The answer to that nonsense, of course, would be that good actions done for that motive, done with the idea that Heaven can be bought, would not be good actions at all, but only commercial speculations. The other set were accused of saying, "Faith is all that matters. Consequently, if you have faith, it doesn't matter what you do. Sin away, my lad, and have a good time and Christ will see that it makes no difference in the end." The answer to that nonsense is that, if what you call your "faith" in Christ does not involve taking the slightest notice of what He says, then it is not Faith at all--not faith or trust in Him, but only intellectual acceptance of some theory about Him.

 The Bible really seems to clinch the matter when it puts the two things together into one amazing sentence. The first half is, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"--which looks as if everything depended on us and our good actions: but the second half goes on, "For it is God who worketh in you"--which looks as if God did everything and we nothing. I am afraid that is the sort of thing we come up against in Christianity. I am puzzled, but I am not surprised. You see, we are now trying to understand, and to separate into watertight compartments, what exactly God does and what man does when God and man are working together. And, of course, we begin by thinking it is like two men working together, so that you could say, "He did this bit and I did that." But this way of thinking breaks down. God is not like that. He is inside you as well as outside: even if we could understand who did what, I do not think human language could properly express it. In the attempt to express it different Churches say different things. But you will find that even those who insist most strongly on the importance of good actions tell you you need Faith; and even those who insist most strongly on Faith tell you to do good actions. At any rate that is as far as I can go. 

 I think all Christians would agree with me if I said that though Christianity seems at the first to be all about morality, all about duties and rules and guilt and virtue, yet it leads you on, out of all that, into something beyond. One has a glimpse of a country where they do not talk of those things, except perhaps as a joke. Every one there is filled full with what we should call goodness as a mirror is filled with light. But they do not call it goodness. They do not call it anything. They are not thinking of it. They are too busy looking at the source from which it comes. But this is near the stage where the road passes over the rim of our world. No one's eyes can see very far beyond that: lots of people's eyes can see further than mine.


----------



## M80

Ronnie T said:


> Either the above verse is incorrect and a lie, or it's part of the inspired word of God.  Assuming that it is true and a part of the inspired word, how can it be true?  How, knowing everything else you know about God's word, can you resolve the issue of the above verse?
> .



Romans 10:9,10

That if thou shall confess with thy mouth The Lord Jesus and shall believe in thine heart that god raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved
     For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 

Same response to you. If this is the inspired word of god and it is, what you think. No where here does it mention baptism


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> Abraham's bosom. This is where the ones that had faith in god went. The rich man went to he11. There was a great gulf fixed that seperated them. It was what Jesus told the theif on the tree. Today thou will be with me in paradise. Jesus went to paradise when he died on Calvery to lead the captive free. Ephesians 4:9,10. You see they couldn't enter heaven. 1st Corinthians 15:50.  They had not been cleansed. They have been waiting on The Lord. Hebrews 10:1-18
> 
> He took them to heaven with him and presented his own blood becoming the high priest  Hebrews 9:1-14



I too believe in Paradise being different from Heaven. Off topic but when do these souls get glorified bodies before their trip to Heaven?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> What's this we you speak of, got a mouse in your pocket?.



In the group who call themselves Christian are unbelievers. We don't know who these unbelievers are. Odd that we don't know who these unbelievers are all these verses refer too, but it's not us. 
I truly believe that I don't know any Christians. I hate to sit in a funeral where the preacher  knows the deceased is going to Heaven.
All I know is that every person who believes he is a Christian isn't. That's between the individual person and God.
I've said it before, I don't have "blessed assurance" I have "blessed hope".


----------



## Artfuldodger

If all these verses are about people who were never saved, how do you know you are? When some one leaves the flock how do you know who will return? 
Do you truly feel it doesn't matter how you live? Can you become an Atheist knowing God will call you home before you die?


----------



## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> Either the above verse is incorrect and a lie, or it's part of the inspired word of God.  Assuming that it is true and a part of the inspired word, how can it be true?  How, knowing everything else you know about God's word, can you resolve the issue of the above verse?
> .





mwilliams80 said:


> Romans 10:9,10
> 
> That if thou shall confess with thy mouth The Lord Jesus and shall believe in thine heart that god raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved
> For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
> 
> Same response to you. If this is the inspired word of god and it is, what you think. No where here does it mention baptism



This verse is in the Bible.    1 Peter 3:21:"Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

If this verse isn't true, then the verse you quote might not be true.  How can both of these verses be true?
If they both aren't true, you can toss your Bible in the trash.  How can they both be correct?


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> In the group who call themselves Christian. We don't know who are Christians. Odd that we don't know who these unbelievers are all these verses refer too, but it's not us.
> I truly believe that I don't know who all the Christians are. I hate to sit in a funeral where the preacher  knows the deceased is going to Heaven.
> All I know is that every person who believes he is a Christian isn't. That's between the individual person and God.



True that only the individual knows whether they truly are born again but the bible says we are known by the fruit we bear. I much rather preach a funeral when the deceased confessed they were saved. All we can go on is their profession of faith. 

Glorified body. 1st Corinthians 15:35-52
Verse 50- flesh and blood cant inherit heaven. Changed in the moment of a twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet. Final part of sanctification is when the body reunites with the soul.  This is the rapture of the church. 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> Romans 10:9,10
> 
> That if thou shall confess with thy mouth The Lord Jesus and shall believe in thine heart that god raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved
> For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
> 
> Same response to you. If this is the inspired word of god and it is, what you think. No where here does it mention baptism



So you've now got to confess with your mouth to be saved? What if you are alone? Can't you just tell God? What if you aren't elected? 
I shouted it to the whole village but didn't change my ways. I'm still rich & don't help people. I cheat on my wife and continue to buy lottery tickets.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Matthew 19:23
Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."

Not impossible but not easy. Eye of the needle could indeed be a small gate it the city wall. Still it's hard for a camel to hunker down and enter.
The rich man is saved by the grace of God just like the poor man.
The Christian who can't forgive his brother is saved just like the Christian who forgives his brother. 
Are we to assume all people who are rich or can't forgive others to be unbelievers and were never saved?


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> So you've now got to confess with your mouth to be saved? What if you are alone? Can't you just tell God? What if you aren't elected?
> I shouted it to the whole village but didn't change my ways. I'm still rich & don't help people. I cheat on my wife and continue to buy lottery tickets.



You have confused me with what all you wrote about cheating and stuff. Key in on verse 10. It is a heart thing. John 3:16 says whosever believeth. Can a deaf man that can't speak not get saved. God forbid. Hannah prayed silently and god heard her prayer. I've have sqalled my eyes out and couldn't get nothing out but groaning a and god knows my heart according to the bible. When someone is truly saved they will have a desire to tell someone


----------



## M80

Brother I'm hitting the pillow


----------



## Artfuldodger

There are 1,050 commands in the New Testament for Christians to obey. Due to repetitions we can classify them under about 800 headings. They cover every phase of man's life in his relationship to God and his fellowmen, now and hereafter. If obeyed, they will bring rich rewards here and forever; if disobeyed, they will bring condemnation and eternal punishment. They are not to be confused with the 10 commandments which were abolished with the law of Moses. They are divided below under their various headings.
http://shalach.org/BibleSearch/NTCommandments.htm

Can one truly say that not following these commandments means you just don't get as many rewards? Is Christianity all about rewards? We're gonna not cheat on our wife for a reward?
We're gonna not cheat on our income taxes for a reward?
We're gonna become Christlike for rewards? 
We should and we do try to follow God's New Testament commandments. Fruit, yes. That still doesn't let us off the hook if you look at what will happen if you don't follow the New Testament commandments. 
The results are in the King James translation of what happens if you don't follow the commandments. I wish I believed differently. I wish God was a slack God. I wish God didn't command me to follow his rules. I wish God didn't send his Son to save us and still give us 1,050 commandments.


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> You have confused me with what all you wrote about cheating and stuff. Key in on verse 10. It is a heart thing. John 3:16 says whosever believeth. Can a deaf man that can't speak not get saved. God forbid. Hannah prayed silently and god heard her prayer. I've have sqalled my eyes out and couldn't get nothing out but groaning a and god knows my heart according to the bible. When someone is truly saved they will have a desire to tell someone



I confuse myself. It is a heart thing though. It is between me and God. God knows, I don't. And as you also said it's way more spiritual than bodily. Although we can't and never will separate the two returning eventually to our glorified bodies.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I'm also confused why God would give me 1,050 commandments with no means of Choosing. I am glad he gave me a Helper.


----------



## Ronnie T

The apostle John wrote: "Anyone who does not follow the teachings of Christ does not have God. Anyone who follows the teachings of Christ has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you who does not accept that, do not welcome him for fear of sharing in his wickedness." (II John 9-11)


----------



## Artfuldodger

Salvation to me means saved from eternal burning in fire. To live an eternal life in Heaven. To others salvation just means saved from eternal death and to have eternal life. 
Either way I want an eternal life in Heaven. Believing in OSAS might make me complacent in not following the teachings of Christ. I want to stay humble. It makes me try harder. 
Too many verses on how to live correctly  for God, to be just about rewards.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> Salvation to me means saved from eternal burning in fire. To live an eternal life in Heaven. To others salvation just means saved from eternal death and to have eternal life.
> Either way I want an eternal life in Heaven. Believing in OSAS might make me complacent in not following the teachings of Christ. I want to stay humble. It makes me try harder.
> Too many verses on how to live correctly  for God, to be just about rewards.


Perhaps it is impossible to make much sense of it until we are made to see that it is not about us at all.


----------



## Israel

gemcgrew said:


> Perhaps it is impossible to make much sense of it until we are made to see that it is not about us at all.



We all...in thought , word, and deed, declare something...as witnesses.
That's right...it is not "about us" to that extent...we are "tried" by the revelation of Jesus Christ...and him...alone.
A witness is just charged with giving testimony...faithfully of what he has seen.
I see a man who gives grace...even to a lying witness. A denying witness.
I am that witness...but He...Jesus...is that man...and he is Lord.
And all of my lying and denying...in thought...words... deeds does not affect who he is.
He alone is all truth.
And one word from him..."you are a liar"...is far more precious than all the amens I could ever imagine.
Just don't stop speaking to me...Lord...


----------



## hummerpoo

Many people, many churches, many business enterprises … direct nearly all of there efforts toward winning souls for Christ.  (I’m sure I don’t need to list the mechanisms used.)  I do not understand this when most of them will not deny that only God can save a person from the eternal darnation that all deserve.

My impression is that a large majority of the discussion here concerns how a person is saved from darnation.  Most agree that the natural human condition is one that merits darnation, and it is rare that it is overtly claimed that man can save himself from that darnation.  This confuses me.

Now, when I apply Scripture and Spirit (Scripture with the approach: What does it say? What does it mean? What am I going to do about it?  And Spirit with: His thoughts are not my thoughts) two expressions come to light:
Discipleship
Lifestyle Ministry

And we talk about the Israelites missing the mark.


----------



## Israel

hummerpoo said:


> Many people, many churches, many business enterprises … direct nearly all of there efforts toward winning souls for Christ.  (I’m sure I don’t need to list the mechanisms used.)  I do not understand this when most of them will not deny that only God can save a person from the eternal darnation that all deserve.
> 
> My impression is that a large majority of the discussion here concerns how a person is saved from darnation.  Most agree that the natural human condition is one that merits darnation, and it is rare that it is overtly claimed that man can save himself from that darnation.  This confuses me.
> 
> Now, when I apply Scripture and Spirit (Scripture with the approach: What does it say? What does it mean? What am I going to do about it?  And Spirit with: His thoughts are not my thoughts) two expressions come to light:
> Discipleship
> Lifestyle Ministry
> 
> And we talk about the Israelites missing the mark.


Yes.
We are told all these things are recorded for our instruction. One could say, admonition.

When David's foibles become less the topic for sermons and more a mirror...when Moses frustrations become less a "teachable moment" for others...but to me...when wandering around in the desert becomes a confession instead of an opportunity to point out the weak faith of what I believe "others" have...well...as you said...till then..."those" Israelites sure have to put up with their ears burning...


----------



## Ronnie T

hummerpoo said:


> Many people, many churches, many business enterprises … direct nearly all of there efforts toward winning souls for Christ.  (I’m sure I don’t need to list the mechanisms used.)  I do not understand this when most of them will not deny that only God can save a person from the eternal darnation that all deserve.
> 
> My impression is that a large majority of the discussion here concerns how a person is saved from darnation.  Most agree that the natural human condition is one that merits darnation, and it is rare that it is overtly claimed that man can save himself from that darnation.  This confuses me.
> 
> Now, when I apply Scripture and Spirit (Scripture with the approach: What does it say? What does it mean? What am I going to do about it?  And Spirit with: His thoughts are not my thoughts) two expressions come to light:
> Discipleship
> Lifestyle Ministry
> 
> And we talk about the Israelites missing the mark.



Amen.  It is God who has the book in His hands.  Not the church!  Lest of all not me.
I can't even add myself to the list, I certainly cannot remove my name.  But God has the book in His hand.

47 ...... And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.

Today, we pretend we get ourselves saved.

We(Christianity) believes in their religion rather than loving the one who saves(just like Israel).
So much of Christianity(the religion) believes one can be saved without their life changing.  With out their repentance.
"Unless our righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Pharisees!"  And so often it does not.
We cannot separate salvation from love.

We ignore one verse for the benefit of another.  One verse was presented here the other day and it was debunked as being false and totally inaccurate.


----------



## Ronnie T

Israel said:


> Yes.
> We are told all these things are recorded for our instruction. One could say, admonition.
> 
> When David's foibles become less the topic for sermons and more a mirror...when Moses frustrations become less a "teachable moment" for others...but to me...when wandering around in the desert becomes a confession instead of an opportunity to point out the weak faith of what I believe "others" have...well...as you said...till then..."those" Israelites sure have to put up with their ears burning...



The lesson at church the morning centered upon this verse.

Matt 23:37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

Today we live in the mist of a religion that wants God's love and resources, but doesn't have the ability to repent and love Him.

We haven't moved very far from Israel.

We've forgotten just how little we know. Yet we live for our beliefs rather for Christ.  And Christ continues to hold out His hands.


----------



## barryl

Hobbs27, asked anyone to tell us about losing salvation and gettin' it back. Are ya'll "closet"{Eternal Security} OSAS'ers? I asked, have you been "Spiritually Circumcised"?


----------



## M80

Ronnie T said:


> This verse is in the Bible.    1 Peter 3:21:"Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"
> 
> If this verse isn't true, then the verse you quote might not be true.  How can both of these verses be true?
> If they both aren't true, you can toss your Bible in the trash.  How can they both be correct?



I just don't see how submerging someone in county,well, or lake water can wash away someone's sin. It's the blood that does this by spiritual baptism. If baptism is what saves us then men would get the glory out of being the one that was baptizing the lost. Baptism is an outward expression to signify to the congregation they are following The Lord in dying to the old man and being raised in the new man. We must come as little children The Lord said and believe through faith.  For by grace are ye saved, through faith. All water can do is clean the dirt from the skin. Jesus blood washes our sins away


----------



## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> I just don't see how submerging someone in county,well, or lake water can wash away someone's sin. It's the blood that does this by spiritual baptism. If baptism is what saves us then men would get the glory out of being the one that was baptizing the lost. Baptism is an outward expression to signify to the congregation they are following The Lord in dying to the old man and being raised in the new man. We must come as little children The Lord said and believe through faith.  For by grace are ye saved, through faith. All water can do is clean the dirt from the skin. Jesus blood washes our sins away



I agree with everything you've said...... Yet the verse is still there.
1 Peter 3:21:"Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

The verse even says it isn't the water, it's something else.
How is it that this verse is true, cause it is true, it must be true.???
.


----------



## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> I agree with everything you've said...... Yet the verse is still there.
> 1 Peter 3:21:"Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ
> 
> The verse even says it isn't the water, it's something else.
> How is it that this verse is true, cause it is true, it must be true.???
> .




Matthew 3:11

 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:


----------



## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> Hobbs27, asked anyone to tell us about losing salvation and gettin' it back. Are ya'll "closet"{Eternal Security} OSAS'ers? I asked, have you been "Spiritually Circumcised"?



How does one know if he's been spiritually circumcised?
.


----------



## hobbs27

Here also is scripture that only believers should be Baptized in the water....Proof that water Baptism is not what makes one a believer, and sadly many churches are allowing lost folk to be Baptized..I know of one First Baptist church that recently invited all that wanted to come down to be Baptized..to come on for whatever reason..no testimony needed.

Acts Chapter 8

36 And as they went on [their] way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, [here is] water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.


----------



## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> Here also is scripture that only believers should be Baptized in the water....Proof that water Baptism is not what makes one a believer, and sadly many churches are allowing lost folk to be Baptized..I know of one First Baptist church that recently invited all that wanted to come down to be Baptized..to come on for whatever reason..no testimony needed


----------



## barryl

Ronnie T said:


> How does one know if he's been spiritually circumcised?
> .


FRUIT RT, I say "SPIRITUAL FRUIT" Gal. 5: 22-24 KJV AV


----------



## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> FRUIT RT, I say "SPIRITUAL FRUIT" Gal. 5: 22-24 KJV AV


----------



## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> FRUIT RT, I say "SPIRITUAL FRUIT" Gal. 5: 22-24 KJV AV



Let's continue on to verse 25:
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 
Since we are living by the Spirit, let us follow the Spirit's leading in every part of our lives.
Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
(three different versions)

It's not an automatic happening we must try to act under the guidance and power of the Holy Spirit. Sin does not now reign over us but we still have flesh.
As Christians we should always live in the Spirit not just every once in awhile.
I think that's why Jesus asked  God send to his Spirit, knowing we would need a helper.
He is a helper, what does that mean?


----------



## Israel

Artfuldodger said:


> Let's continue on to verse 25:
> If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
> Since we are living by the Spirit, let us follow the Spirit's leading in every part of our lives.
> Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
> (three different versions)
> 
> It's not an automatic happening we must try to act under the guidance and power of the Holy Spirit. Sin does not now reign over us but we still have flesh.
> As Christians we should always live in the Spirit not just every once in awhile.
> I think that's why Jesus asked  God send to his Spirit, knowing we would need a helper.
> He is a helper, what does that mean?


He helps us to see we need all the help there is...not because we are shamefully weak...but because God is remarkably strong...and we were never created to "do" or "be" anything on our own...there's someone who likes being "our life"...and we will like it too...when we "let" him...


----------



## gordon 2

Good monday morning all....


----------



## barryl

Artfuldodger said:


> Let's continue on to verse 25:
> If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
> Since we are living by the Spirit, let us follow the Spirit's leading in every part of our lives.
> Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
> (three different versions)
> 
> It's not an automatic happening we must try to act under the guidance and power of the Holy Spirit. Sin does not now reign over us but we still have flesh.
> As Christians we should always live in the Spirit not just every once in awhile.
> I think that's why Jesus asked  God send to his Spirit, knowing we would need a helper.
> He is a helper, what does that mean?


Since I can't answer for you, let's try this, when I believed on the sinless{Blood} sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ I was saved{Past Tense} "forever". I didn't say safe. About Progressive Revelation, 1 Tim.2:4,2 Tim. 2:15, theres some scriptures in my Bible, 1Cor. 3:2, 9:7 Heb. 5:12-13, 1 Peter 2:2 Milk as opposed to Meat. I now have what I didn't have, then, before I heard the "Gospel" 1 Cor. 15: 1-4 and believed. In other words, what I had heard went right straight to my heart. Romans 10:9-13.  I agree with your #1 post,  Gal. 5:25-26 KJV AV. One more thing, our "Soul" has been cut loose from our flesh{Spiritually Circumcised}, we will have to deal with our flesh{Sin,Romans Ch. 7}{our Mediator,Advocate will help do what we{Self Righteousness} could "never" do}, till we Die or the Rapture of the "Body of Christ" happens.


----------



## barryl

gordon 2 said:


> Good monday morning all....


Mornin' Gordon2


----------



## barryl

Israel said:


> He helps us to see we need all the help there is...not because we are shamefully weak...but because God is remarkably strong...and we were never created to "do" or "be" anything on our own...there's someone who likes being "our life"...and we will like it too...when we "let" him...


Isreal,


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> Let's continue on to verse 25:
> If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
> Since we are living by the Spirit, let us follow the Spirit's leading in every part of our lives.
> Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
> (three different versions)
> 
> It's not an automatic happening we must try to act under the guidance and power of the Holy Spirit. *Sin does not now reign over us but we still have flesh.*As Christians we should always live in the Spirit not just every once in awhile.
> I think that's why Jesus asked  God send to his Spirit, knowing we would need a helper.
> He is a helper, what does that mean?





Israel said:


> He helps us to see we need all the help there is...not because we are shamefully weak...but because God is remarkably strong...and we were never created to "do" or "be" anything on our own...there's someone who likes being "our life"...and we will like it too...when we "let" him...



I seem to recall having once made the statement here that "the law condemns the flesh", which idea was attacked as legalism (whatever that is) and a long conversation about how the law doesn't save (justify).

As Israel says "He helps us to see we need all the help there is".  The law is part of that help, it is written in scripture, it is written on our hearts, and it is made understandable (applicable) by the Spirit.

Although I realize most see it differently, the only difference I see between OT an NT on that issue is that Christ provided another level of "help" (perhaps two).


----------



## Artfuldodger

Deuteronomy 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Deuteronomy 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Jeremiah 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, you men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.


----------



## Ronnie T

hummerpoo said:


> I seem to recall having once made the statement here that "the law condemns the flesh", which idea was attacked as legalism (whatever that is) and a long conversation about how the law doesn't save (justify).
> 
> As Israel says "He helps us to see we need all the help there is".  The law is part of that help, it is written in scripture, it is written on our hearts, and it is made understandable (applicable) by the Spirit.
> 
> Although I realize most see it differently, the only difference I see between OT an NT on that issue is that Christ provided another level of "help" (perhaps two).



I see it the same as you.  He has now provided us the means to stand strong before all temptation.  And avenues and means to serve Him and others.
But other's will disagree.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Reading one of Spurgeon's sermons on God's law in man's heart. Showing the difference having the Holy Spirit in helping obey God's law.
Quote;  When the Holy Spirit comes to us, he shows us what the law really is. Take, for instance, the command, "Thou shalt not commit adultery." "Well!" says one, "I have not broken that commandment." "Stay," says the Spirit of God, "till you know the spiritual meaning of that command, for whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." There is, also, the command, "Thou shalt not kill." "Oh!" says the man, "I never killed anybody, I have not committed murder." "But," says the Spirit of God, "whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer." When the Lord thus writes his law upon our heart, he makes us to know the far-reaching power and scope of the commandment.

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/2506.htm


----------



## Artfuldodger

I believe as Christianity distances itself from it's Jewish roots we will see more Churches springing up with more Jewish ties. 
They might follow more with keeping New Testsament commandments.

Matthew 5:17-19 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets

Romans 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> I believe as Christianity distances itself from it's Jewish roots we will see more Churches springing up with more Jewish ties.



I don't follow your logic.  Also, I'm not sure what a church "with more Jewish ties" looks like.


----------



## RutNStrut

I don't know if this was posted already as I haven't read through all 5 pages of this thread.

Paul wrote to the church at Phillipi, whom he loved dearly because he himself had started that church earlier.

Philippians 2:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Which tells me there is a certain reverence or Godly fear that is associated with salvation.  I personally think that fear and trembling is the seriousness of staying in the Lord's will and a constant repentance of sin. 

It doesn't read "work out your own salvation with no worries or care, now go live anyway you want". There has to be a turning away of your sins. That "if" factor if you will.

Just my .2 worth


----------



## gordon 2

Ronnie T said:


> I see it the same as you.  He has now provided us the means to stand strong before all temptation.  And avenues and means to serve Him and others.
> But other's will disagree.





I'll bet that someone can quote scriture to show that Cor. 10-13 does not apply to your point... just for the bet of it. 

Cor. 10-13
No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> I don't follow your logic.  Also, I'm not sure what a church "with more Jewish ties" looks like.



They usually have names like "The Kingdom of Yahweh"
Mostly Gentile membership with a few Messianic Jews.
The logic is for people who believe Obedience to God is important and following God's commands. 
In my lifetime Churches have moved away from keeping the 10 commandmnts as an example. They are more focused on just Grace and no works whatsoever. 
So I reckon the followers of these Yahweh Churches are trying to recapture what modern Churches are losing.
Judaism ties is more correct than Jewish ties. 

Here is a link of people in Georgia looking for this type of fellowship. I don't know how big this following is or how fast it's growing:

http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/fello...ATE2=GA&action=search_1&category=1&page=1&pb=


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## Artfuldodger

If you look at their Statement of Faith it looks like most other Christian Churches. They do keep the Sabbath and try to keep the Law.
From the Messianic Alliance of North America
Is the Law still valid today? - Yes, as a standard for righteousness. Yeshua said that not one yod or tittle would pass away, and that those who love Him will keep His commandments.  The Law is not for salvation, but for sanctification (being Holy).  No one can keep the Law perfectly, but striving to live as Adonai commands brings us closer to His desire for our life. 


What We Believe:

 That there is one G-d who made the world and all its creatures

 G-d presents Himself as Will (Father), Word (Son) and Breath (Ruach Ha'Kodesh)

 G-d’s final revelation is in the Bible, consisting of the Tanakh (Torah, Writings & Prophets) and B'rit Chadasha (Renewed Covenant)

 G-d became a man, Yeshua, who is fully G-d in His Spirit and fully man in His flesh

 After Yeshua ascended to heaven, the Ruach Ha'Kodesh descended upon true followers of Yeshua and is active in our lives today

 The Messiah has come and He is Yeshua

 Yeshua became a sacrifice for sin as predicted in Isaiah 53—G-d punished Yeshua for the sins we all commit and the sinfulness we all bear

 Our sins were laid upon him and we bear them no more

 Freedom from the curse of sin comes by trusting in the sacrificial death of Yeshua and the promise of Resurrection

 It is appointed to humankind to die and then face judgment

 It is impossible to earn G-d’s favor—he gives it freely

 There is one Congregation of Messiah made up of all believers from all time—Jewish & grafted in Gentiles

 G-d has not abandoned his people, Israel, and will fulfill his promises to Israel near and during the Messianic Age

 All people, Jewish or Gentile, must come to a trust in the sacrificial death of Yeshua in order to be saved from sin


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## Artfuldodger

How can OSAS believers have eternal security if it's possible a reprobate Christian was never saved to begin with?
Where is the fear of God that you might have never been saved? Why is it always the other Christian that isn't elected?


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## M80

I don't live in fear. That's the whole point. If I could lose my salvation Jesus would have to die on the cross again. He holds me in his hand and the fathers holds us too we are his purchased possession. What he started in us he will finish. 
John 3:16. For god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. To lose your salvation would mean death. Revelation said the lake of fire is the second death. Jesus told Nicodemus we must be born again. If we are born again(quickened)(saved) how can we not have everlasting life


----------



## M80

Are you telling me you don't sin. I would hate to live my life tippy toeing around making sure that I was constantly making sure I was saved so a car wouldn't hit me all of a sudden and die and go to he11. Sin is sin. Don't tell me you have to practice sin to lose your salvation. When we sin we have an advocate with the father(Jesus) our lawyer that pleads our case to the father. If we ask for forgiveness he will forgive us. 1st John says "if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgives our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness". He is talking to the saved person.


----------



## Ronnie T

Then, what of Paul's comment?


1 Corinthians 9:26-27
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.


----------



## M80

Paul wrote in Romans 7. We fight against our flesh with our inner man. We must beat it(our flesh) up to let the inner man(saved man, our new creature) shine out. Whichever one we feed the most will be the dominate one. If Paul doesn't buffet his body the flesh will have more control and all his testimony he has made could be lost by one mistake. Note I said testimony. Not salvation. One big mess up from any of us preachers could make us disqualified to pastor a church. If you watch the news, a fireman could save a 100 life's out of burning buildings, but one person he might make a mistake on the news will about crucify him. They don't look at all the years of service. Therefor Paul buffets his body to keep it in submission.


----------



## centerpin fan

Ronnie T said:


> Then, what of Paul's comment?



... and what of these?


“We ought therefore, brethren, carefully to inquire concerning our salvation. Otherwise, the wicked one, having made his entrance by deceit, may hurl us forth from our life.” ~ *Barnabas (c. 70-130)*

“For the Lord has sworn by His glory, in regard to His elect, that if any one of them sin after a certain day which has been fixed, he will no be saved. For the repentance of the righteous has limits. Filled up are the days of repentance to all the saints. But to the unbeliever, repentance will be possible even to the last day… For the Lord has sworn by His Son, that those who denied their Lord have abandoned their life to despair.” ~ *Hermas (c. 150)*

“I hold further, that those of you who have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back for some reason to the legal dispensation [i.e. the Mosaic Law], and have denied that this man is Christ, and have not repented before death – you will by no means be saved.” ~ *Justin Martyr (c. 160)*

“Those who do not obey Him, being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons.” ~ *Irenaeus (c. 180)*

“God had foreseen… that faith – even after baptism – would be endangered. He saw that most persons – after obtaining salvation – would be lost again, by soiling the wedding dress, by failing to provide oil for their torches.” ~ *Tertullian (c. 213)*

“Certain ones of those [heretics] who hold different opinions misuse these passages. They essentially destroy free will be introducing ruined natures incapable of salvation and by introducing others as being saved in such a way that they cannot be lost.” ~ *Origen (c. 225)*

“Being a believing man, if you seek to live as the Gentiles do, the joys of the world remove you from the grace of Christ.” ~ *Commodianus (c. 240)*

“Let us press onward and labor, watching with our whole heart. Let us be steadfast with all endurance; let us keep the Lord’s commandments. Thereby, when that day of anger and vengeance comes, we may not be punished with the ungodly and the sinners. Rather, we may be honored with the righteous and with those who fear God.” ~ *Cyprian (c. 250)*

“As to one who again denies Christ, no special previous standing can be effective to him for salvation. For anyone of us will hold it necessary that whatever is the last thing to be found in a man in this respect, that is where he will be judged. All of those things that he has previously done are wiped away and obliterated.” ~ *Treatise on Re-Baptism (c. 257)*

“He put a seal upon him, for it is concealed as to who belong to the side of the devil and who to the side of Christ. For we do not know out of those who seem to stand whether they will fall or not. And of those who are down, it is uncertain whether they might rise.” ~ *Victorinus (c. 280)*


----------



## M80

I have never heard these verses. Are they out of gods holy word. I only believe in gods INSPIRED word


----------



## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> Paul wrote in Romans 7. We fight against our flesh with our inner man. We must beat it(our flesh) up to let the inner man(saved man, our new creature) shine out. Whichever one we feed the most will be the dominate one. If Paul doesn't buffet his body the flesh will have more control and all his testimony he has made could be lost by one mistake. Note I said testimony. Not salvation.



Interesting, but "testimony" is not mentioned in Romans 7.  It's not even hinted at, IMO.


----------



## M80

Ronnie T said:


> Then, what of Paul's comment?
> 
> 
> 1 Corinthians 9:26-27
> New American Standard Bible (NASB)
> 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.





centerpin fan said:


> Interesting, but "testimony" is not mentioned in Romans 7.  It's not even hinted at, IMO.


I was referring about Paul being disqualified to preach


----------



## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> I have never heard these verses. Are they out of gods holy word.



They are writings from early Christians.




mwilliams80 said:


> I only believe in gods INSPIRED word



As I noted before, God's inspired word says this:

_And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;  they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover._

... but I doubt you practice any of that.  Very few churches do.


----------



## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> I was referring about Paul being disqualified to preach



I understand.  A good friend of mine was a Baptist minister.  Unfortunately, he became "disqualified to preach".


----------



## hobbs27

centerpin fan said:


> They are writings from early Christians.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As I noted before, God's inspired word says this:
> 
> _And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;  they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover._
> 
> ... but I doubt you practice any of that.  Very few churches do.



All those were prophecies fulfilled in Acts...no need to refulfill prophecies, although many try.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> How can OSAS believers have eternal security if it's possible a reprobate Christian was never saved to begin with?
> Where is the fear of God that you might have never been saved? Why is it always the other Christian that isn't elected?


What in the world is a reprobate Christian? Where do you come up with this nonsense?


----------



## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> Then, what of Paul's comment?
> 
> 
> 1 Corinthians 9:26-27
> New American Standard Bible (NASB)
> 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.





mwilliams80 said:


> Paul wrote in Romans 7. We fight against our flesh with our inner man. We must beat it(our flesh) up to let the inner man(saved man, our new creature) shine out. Whichever one we feed the most will be the dominate one. If Paul doesn't buffet his body the flesh will have more control and all his testimony he has made could be lost by one mistake. Note I said testimony. Not salvation. One big mess up from any of us preachers could make us disqualified to pastor a church. If you watch the news, a fireman could save a 100 life's out of burning buildings, but one person he might make a mistake on the news will about crucify him. They don't look at all the years of service. Therefor Paul buffets his body to keep it in submission.



I believe the following concerning those verses.

***********************************
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
27. keep under—literally, "bruise the face under the eyes," so as to render it black and blue; so, to chastise in the most sensitive part. Compare "mortify the deeds of the body," Ro 8:13; also 1Pe 2:11. It is not ascetic fasts or macerations of the body which are here recommended, but the keeping under of our natural self-seeking, so as, like Paul, to lay ourselves out entirely for the great work.

my body—the old man and the remainders of lust in my flesh. "My body," so far as by the flesh it opposes the spirit [Estius] (Ga 5:17). Men may be severe to their bodies and yet indulge their lust. Ascetic "neglect of the body" may be all the while a more subtile "satisfying of the flesh" (Col 2:23). Unless the soul keep the body under, the body will get above the soul. The body may be made a good servant, but is a bad master.

bring it into subjection—or bondage, as a slave or servant led away captive; so the Greek.

preached—literally, "heralded." He keeps up the image from the races. The heralds summoned the candidates for the foot race into the race course [Plato, Laws, 8.833], and placed the crowns on the brows of the conquerors, announcing their names [Bengel]. They probably proclaimed also the laws of the combat; answering to the preaching of the apostles [Alford]. The The Christian herald is also a combatant, in which respect he is distinguished from the herald at the games.

a castaway—failing shamefully of the prize myself, after I have called others to the contest. Rejected by God, the Judge of the Christian race, notwithstanding my having, by my preaching, led others to be accepted. Compare the equivalent term, "reprobate," Jer 6:30; 2Co 13:6. Paul implies, if such earnest, self-denying watchfulness over himself be needed still, with all his labors for others, to make his own calling sure, much more is the same needed by the Corinthians, instead of their going, as they do, to the extreme limit of Christian liberty."


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> How can OSAS believers have eternal security if it's possible a reprobate Christian was never saved to begin with?
> Where is the fear of God that you might have never been saved? Why is it always the other Christian that isn't elected?



OSAS is a term I first heard of here. Theres not many folks in the Forsyth, Dawson, Lumpkin county area's that believe salvation can be lost.. a few holiness, and maybe some methodist (not all) believe that way. Not very many predestination believers up here either, so all that is new to me. 
 What I can assure you of though, is a person that is saved will fear God!


----------



## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> OSAS is a term I first heard of here. Theres not many folks in the Forsyth, Dawson, Lumpkin county area's that believe salvation can be lost.. a few holiness, and maybe some methodist (not all) believe that way. Not very many predestination believers up here either, so all that is new to me.
> What I can assure you of though, is a person that is saved will fear God!


God maintains the believer's salvation, not the believer. If we can lose our salvation, we will. If any part of salvation is dependent upon us, the whole work of salvation is dependent upon us. 

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."


----------



## barryl

centerpin fan said:


> They are writings from early Christians.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As I noted before, God's inspired word says this:
> 
> _And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;  they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover._
> 
> ... but I doubt you practice any of that.  Very few churches do.


Cp, you are so good to try to help me any time you can, let me help you a little bit. You quoted Mark 16:17-18 "Proper context" always sets things straight, How many "Christians" was this verse talking to? Not a one, all were "pork Abstaining" Jews-Verse 14,15, course you know what verse 16 says. "Rightly divide"


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> How many "Christians" was this verse talking to? Not a one, all were "pork Abstaining" Jews-Verse 14,15, course you know what verse 16 says. "Rightly divide"



barryl, ya gotta be kidding me.  He's speaking to the apostle's, but:

_ ...these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover._

... and verse 16 says "whoever" believes, not just the apostles.


----------



## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> All those were prophecies fulfilled in Acts...



The passage specifically calls them "signs" rather than "prophecies".


----------



## hobbs27

centerpin fan said:


> The passage specifically calls them "signs" rather than "prophecies".



Ok. All those signs came and went in Acts..No need for anyone to be looking for those signs.


----------



## gordon 2

centerpin fan said:


> ... and what of these?
> 
> 
> “We ought therefore, brethren, carefully to inquire concerning our salvation. Otherwise, the wicked one, having made his entrance by deceit, may hurl us forth from our life.” ~ *Barnabas (c. 70-130)*
> 
> “For the Lord has sworn by His glory, in regard to His elect, that if any one of them sin after a certain day which has been fixed, he will no be saved. For the repentance of the righteous has limits. Filled up are the days of repentance to all the saints. But to the unbeliever, repentance will be possible even to the last day… For the Lord has sworn by His Son, that those who denied their Lord have abandoned their life to despair.” ~ *Hermas (c. 150)*
> 
> “I hold further, that those of you who have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back for some reason to the legal dispensation [i.e. the Mosaic Law], and have denied that this man is Christ, and have not repented before death – you will by no means be saved.” ~ *Justin Martyr (c. 160)*
> 
> “Those who do not obey Him, being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons.” ~ *Irenaeus (c. 180)*
> 
> “God had foreseen… that faith – even after baptism – would be endangered. He saw that most persons – after obtaining salvation – would be lost again, by soiling the wedding dress, by failing to provide oil for their torches.” ~ *Tertullian (c. 213)*
> 
> “Certain ones of those [heretics] who hold different opinions misuse these passages. They essentially destroy free will be introducing ruined natures incapable of salvation and by introducing others as being saved in such a way that they cannot be lost.” ~ *Origen (c. 225)*
> 
> “Being a believing man, if you seek to live as the Gentiles do, the joys of the world remove you from the grace of Christ.” ~ *Commodianus (c. 240)*
> 
> “Let us press onward and labor, watching with our whole heart. Let us be steadfast with all endurance; let us keep the Lord’s commandments. Thereby, when that day of anger and vengeance comes, we may not be punished with the ungodly and the sinners. Rather, we may be honored with the righteous and with those who fear God.” ~ *Cyprian (c. 250)*
> 
> “As to one who again denies Christ, no special previous standing can be effective to him for salvation. For anyone of us will hold it necessary that whatever is the last thing to be found in a man in this respect, that is where he will be judged. All of those things that he has previously done are wiped away and obliterated.” ~ *Treatise on Re-Baptism (c. 257)*
> 
> “He put a seal upon him, for it is concealed as to who belong to the side of the devil and who to the side of Christ. For we do not know out of those who seem to stand whether they will fall or not. And of those who are down, it is uncertain whether they might rise.” ~ *Victorinus (c. 280)*



Thanks for posting these. Very interesting.


2 thessalonians 2:15

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Matthew 5:17-19 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets

Romans 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. 

What are these verses for? If "all" is fulfilled means the law, why was the warning necessary?


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> What in the world is a reprobate Christian? Where do you come up with this nonsense?



It is a Christian who decides to follow the desires of the flesh instead of the guidance of the Holy Spirit. (what you would call a person who was never saved)

Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
James 4:7-10
7Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.
Hebrews 10:26  
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received
the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> All those were prophecies fulfilled in Acts...no need to refulfill prophecies, although many try.



What are some preterist verses to let us know what events have been fulfilled? How does the preterist views affect how we view grace & works?


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> God maintains the believer's salvation, not the believer. If we can lose our salvation, we will. If any part of salvation is dependent upon us, the whole work of salvation is dependent upon us.
> 
> "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."



In your view works are for rewards? If God maintains our Salvation which was granted by his grace alone, why was sending the Holy Spirit as a helper necessary? Why all the warnings from God and his son Jesus  as to what will happen if we aren't obedient?


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> Matthew 5:17-19 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
> 
> Acts 24:14 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets
> 
> Romans 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
> 
> What are these verses for? If "all" is fulfilled means the law, why was the warning necessary?



I believe your question should be "What did Jesus mean by 'fulfilled'?"  His explanation is clear if we would just keep reading.  Adultry doesn't require sexual intercourse.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> In your view works are for rewards?


Good works are the result of Christ. "From me is thy fruit found."(Hosea 14:8) A believer is his(Christ) workmanship. "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:10)




Artfuldodger said:


> If God maintains our Salvation which was granted by his grace alone, why was sending the Holy Spirit as a helper necessary?


To maintain our salvation.



Artfuldodger said:


> Why all the warnings from God and his son Jesus  as to what will happen if we aren't obedient?


Where do we find our obedience? In ourselves or Christ? Apart from Christ, we are just "... they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God."(Luke 16:15)


----------



## barryl

centerpin fan said:


> barryl, ya gotta be kidding me.  He's speaking to the apostle's, but:
> 
> _ ...these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover._
> 
> ... and verse 16 says "whoever" believes, not just the apostles.


 Who were them signs for? 1 Cor. 1:22, 1 Cor. 14:22


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Who were them signs for? 1 Cor. 1:22, 1 Cor. 14:22



1)  Agreed, but the fact remains that _believers_ were performing the signs.

2)  I'm not trying to argue for or against charismatic gifts.  I only brought this up to demonstrate that there are crystal clear passages of scripture that many (if not most) do not follow.  Baptism for the dead is another example.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> What are some preterist verses to let us know what events have been fulfilled? How does the preterist views affect how we view grace & works?



Art full preterist believe all verses are fulfilled, partial preterist like myself believe all but the resurrection has taken place. A good chapter to read to get an idea is Matthew 24 which was fulfilled with the judgement on Israel in 70 Ad. I believed in a fulfilled prophecy before I knew there was a name for it. The strange thing is preterist come from many different denominations. There's Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, and probably most famous preterist as of late have come out of the church of Christ.
 As for grace and works....I imagine that has more to do with the denominational background of the individual..Baptist tend to believe in a stronger doctrine of grace, while others believe in a stronger doctrine of works.


----------



## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> Art full preterist believe all verses are fulfilled, partial preterist like myself believe all but the resurrection has taken place. A good chapter to read to get an idea is Matthew 24 which was fulfilled with the judgement on Israel in 70 Ad. I believed in a fulfilled prophecy before I knew there was a name for it. The strange thing is preterist come from many different denominations. There's Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, and probably most famous preterist as of late have come out of the church of Christ.
> As for grace and works....I imagine that has more to do with the denominational background of the individual..Baptist tend to believe in a stronger doctrine of grace, while others believe in a stronger doctrine of works.



My best guess would be that the vast majority of Bible studying folks of the church of Christ would fall into the category of partial preterist .  It isn't a doctrinal issue for us(I don't believe), but it falls in line with the way we see these lasts days unfolding.


----------



## Israel

hummerpoo said:


> I believe your question should be "What did Jesus mean by 'fulfilled'?"  His explanation is clear if we would just keep reading.  Adultry doesn't require sexual intercourse.



"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Perhaps some consideration could be given to the red words, there? Almost seems a strange thing to consider....?


----------



## hummerpoo

Israel said:


> "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
> 
> 
> Perhaps some consideration could be given to the red words, there? Almost seems a strange thing to consider....?



Being one easily confused I often find myself spending an inordinate amount of time pondering some questions.  For example, why do those who state the law to be dead seldom, if ever, identify the precepts of law which they willfully ignore?


----------



## gordon 2

Israel said:


> "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
> 
> 
> Perhaps some consideration could be given to the red words, there? Almost seems a strange thing to consider....?



Yep.


----------



## Israel

hummerpoo said:


> Being one easily confused I often find myself spending an inordinate amount of time pondering some questions.  For example, why do those who state the law to be dead seldom, if ever, identify the precepts of law which they willfully ignore?


I didn't want to add to confusion...and I hope that Gordon's yep means he sees my interest in the passage.

19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;

Either what Jesus said is "it not that it's "OK" to break commandments and teach men so...cause you'll end up least..."
Or he means something entirely different when he says "keep and teach" the commandments of God.

It is all the difference between loving God, in truth, and wanting yourself and others to believe you do.
I think I could make long explanations...and examples. But I also think I do too much of that.


----------



## hummerpoo

Israel said:


> I didn't want to add to confusion...and I hope that Gordon's yep means he sees my interest in the passage.
> 
> 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;
> 
> Either what Jesus said is "it not that it's "OK" to break commandments and teach men so...cause you'll end up least..."
> Or he means something entirely different when he says "keep and teach" the commandments of God.
> 
> It is all the difference between loving God, in truth, and wanting yourself and others to believe you do.
> I think I could make long explanations...and examples. But I also think I do too much of that.



If my highlights are the key to your meaning, and you are indicating the essential element of motivation (self vs. God) in our relationship with God, which relationship must always be viewed in light of the Great Commandment, then, do not vs. 20 and Jesus extensive explanation of the proper interpretation and application of the law which follows vss. 17-20 serve as sufficient warning against both of the highlights?


----------



## Israel

Here's what I see...if the Lord has distilled it sufficiently for/in me.
Jesus IS the fulfillment of the law and the prophets, in that...all of it pointed to a "man" the Messiah...not a doing. Jesus is what the man to whom the commandments of God are life...looks like. He is the man who "really" keeps the law...neither by an outward show, nor just the mouthing of instructions and commandments.
Indeed, in Jesus IS the only place the law is kept. 

If a man can receive this...

If I complain about something...does it not within the complaint contain the presumption...that it must therefore be something of which I am not culpable? Or, is that not at least what I _hope_ to imply?
"How stupid people are!"

Isn't my presumption in being able to say this so broadly...that I MUST therefore not be stupid...like them?

"How religious people are!"...what is the presumption there?

Now, of course, to the enlightened onlooker, or hearer, like YOU...you might say within yourself, (or if boldness prompts it)...confront me with: "brother...you really have no idea how stupid and religious you are, yourself!". (generally the Lord's response to me at such times of exasperation...and such exasperation...outrage even...that may fool some folks...but never, the Lord)

To some extent I believe Paul was addressing the foolishness of those who "loved" to teach the law.."Don't steal..." (what did Paul say...)
Don't commit adultery (again, what did Paul say?)
I believe Paul saw that often the loving of the teaching is not more than lip service...precisely because the implication is..."If I teach the law, I must therefore be a "keeper" of it! Is there SOMETHING so strong in us that "forces" us to seek to display our own righteousness? Is there anything stronger? Where, Oh, where is he...for I need him always!

Why is this? 

Why is the insufficiency of simply saying "You know, you should love God with your whole heart" something other than what the Lord obviously is saying when he says this:

19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;

That's why I mentioned what is the apparent peculiarity of it. Jesus DID NOT say "whoever breaks and teaches men to break the commandments is - eternally darned"...because it is not a matter of simple word instruction.

Do we seek to please the Lord...(at best)...and sometimes fall short?

All our instructions mean NOTHING, unless, and until, the Word of God has been so formed in us that we are, by the reality of OUR LIVES, a living epistle of instruction in righteousness. 

If I think "keeping the law" is simply keeping my hand out of my neighbor's pocket...Jesus tells me..."NO! It is in BEING the man who is not even concerned or aware of what his neighbor may have in his pocket!"

I may say..."I am qualified to teach "thou shalt not commit adultery"...because I have never laid a physical hand on my neighbor's wife. 

But what does Jesus say? NO!, until you are the man who doesn't even "check out" his neighbor's wife...the law...is not really kept.


So many "things" of me...are in perfect opposition to the true spiritual nature of the law, and by my very practice indeed, I not only fall short...BUT...by example....TEACH others to fall short.

So, regardless of how I may say the law is holy, and just, and good, I betray...both in word and deed, the discrepancies...found in me.

O! wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from this body of death?

WE are all...always...teaching SOMETHING.

I believe that is why Jesus said what he said...and Paul came to understand the futility of trusting in anything OTHER than the Lord Jesus Christ both for, and as...salvation.

And, if we can...or may, even use Paul as an example...we discover...it is PRECISELY his love of God from the heart...revealed by the spirit...that convicts me of AND by a man who completely abandoned trying to demonstrate his own righteousness...became a fool, outcast...by word...to not only those amongst whom he had former conversation (the Jews/Pharisees of his day)...but even...amongst believers...(I believe) for whom he had laid down his very life...something of a fool.

You may ask..."where did you get such an idea...what makes you think Paul had something less than constant applause among all his "children" in the faith...amongst all those to whom he had ministered...and before whom he had plainly lived?"

I see a wealth of suffering in Paul that caused him to even be moved to testify to, perhaps his closest "love" in the faith...and one to whom these words one would think would not be needed...BUT...were said...nonetheless...

1Ti_2:7  Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not) a teacher of the Gentiles in _faith and verity._

I might tell you..."I love my wife, I really do, I'm not lying"

You may hear the overwhelming grief I would have had to endure to be brought to tell "her"...the one to whom it SHOULD be plainest of all, regardless of what all other men may define love as, or despite all the denials she may have heard from other "better loved" wives..."Honey, I have loved you...in truth, and I am not lying..."

I am truly convinced of this thing...as I see it as surely in Paul...as I do in Jesus...when God gets a hold of someone by their heart...and by grace they cannot get free...nor want to...such a man will find himself in a place where he can neither explain..."prove" (especially by his own demonstrable deeds of righteousness)...God can get him "so far out there"...he may even forbid him the opportunity to even attempt to explain where he has him...and where that man knows...to everyone "else"...even his closest companions...(PERHAPS) he appears as a fool, a liar, perhaps even a deceived deceiver...because he cares no longer at all...is moved no longer at all...can consider, no longer at all (because he has had it revealed what a previously STRONG mainspring of his life and being it was...to seek the "understanding" and good opinion of others)...and he sees precisely what Jesus was addressing when he said this...

Joh_5:44  How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

Obviously...my long explanation tells you what kind of man I am. My "desire" to be understood
But...I see someone...through a glass...maybe dimly...still.
Loving Jesus, truly, from my heart...remains for me AT BEST, an aspiration. (I say at best...because really...I don't know if I even care to...only God truly knows me...and the WHY of me)
I may tell men "They should" (love the Lord)...but at precisely the moment I see and hear the one speaking...I am convicted by how far short those words fall...in me...and trust someday...in the moment words will no longer be needed...instruction unnecessary...and hear someone encouraging to BELIEVE...truly believe...this:

Jer_31:34  And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. 

Till then, in me are words...BUT...in him is life.


----------



## gordon 2

Israel said:


> Here's what I see...if the Lord has distilled it sufficiently for/in me.
> Jesus IS the fulfillment of the law and the prophets, in that...all of it pointed to a "man" the Messiah...not a doing. Jesus is what the man to whom the commandments of God are life...looks like. He is the man who "really" keeps the law...neither by an outward show, nor just the mouthing of instructions and commandments.
> Indeed, in Jesus IS the only place the law is kept.
> 
> If a man can receive this...
> 
> If I complain about something...does it not within the complaint contain the presumption...that it must therefore be something of which I am not culpable? Or, is that not at least what I _hope_ to imply?
> "How stupid people are!"
> 
> Isn't my presumption in being able to say this so broadly...that I MUST therefore not be stupid...like them?
> 
> "How religious people are!"...what is the presumption there?
> 
> Now, of course, to the enlightened onlooker, or hearer, like YOU...you might say within yourself, (or if boldness prompts it)...confront me with: "brother...you really have no idea how stupid and religious you are, yourself!". (generally the Lord's response to me at such times of exasperation...and such exasperation...outrage even...that may fool some folks...but never, the Lord)
> 
> To some extent I believe Paul was addressing the foolishness of those who "loved" to teach the law.."Don't steal..." (what did Paul say...)
> Don't commit adultery (again, what did Paul say?)
> I believe Paul saw that often the loving of the teaching is not more than lip service...precisely because the implication is..."If I teach the law, I must therefore be a "keeper" of it! Is there SOMETHING so strong in us that "forces" us to seek to display our own righteousness? Is there anything stronger? Where, Oh, where is he...for I need him always!
> 
> Why is this?
> 
> Why is the insufficiency of simply saying "You know, you should love God with your whole heart" something other than what the Lord obviously is saying when he says this:
> 
> 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;
> 
> That's why I mentioned what is the apparent peculiarity of it. Jesus DID NOT say "whoever breaks and teaches men to break the commandments is - eternally darned"...because it is not a matter of simple word instruction.
> 
> Do we seek to please the Lord...(at best)...and sometimes fall short?
> 
> All our instructions mean NOTHING, unless, and until, the Word of God has been so formed in us that we are, by the reality of OUR LIVES, a living epistle of instruction in righteousness.
> 
> If I think "keeping the law" is simply keeping my hand out of my neighbor's pocket...Jesus tells me..."NO! It is in BEING the man who is not even concerned or aware of what his neighbor may have in his pocket!"
> 
> I may say..."I am qualified to teach "thou shalt not commit adultery"...because I have never laid a physical hand on my neighbor's wife.
> 
> But what does Jesus say? NO!, until you are the man who doesn't even "check out" his neighbor's wife...the law...is not really kept.
> 
> 
> So many "things" of me...are in perfect opposition to the true spiritual nature of the law, and by my very practice indeed, I not only fall short...BUT...by example....TEACH others to fall short.
> 
> So, regardless of how I may say the law is holy, and just, and good, I betray...both in word and deed, the discrepancies...found in me.
> 
> O! wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from this body of death?
> 
> WE are all...always...teaching SOMETHING.
> 
> I believe that is why Jesus said what he said...and Paul came to understand the futility of trusting in anything OTHER than the Lord Jesus Christ both for, and as...salvation.
> 
> And, if we can...or may, even use Paul as an example...we discover...it is PRECISELY his love of God from the heart...revealed by the spirit...that convicts me of AND by a man who completely abandoned trying to demonstrate his own righteousness...became a fool, outcast...by word...to not only those amongst whom he had former conversation (the Jews/Pharisees of his day)...but even...amongst believers...(I believe) for whom he had laid down his very life...something of a fool.
> 
> You may ask..."where did you get such an idea...what makes you think Paul had something less than constant applause among all his "children" in the faith...amongst all those to whom he had ministered...and before whom he had plainly lived?"
> 
> I see a wealth of suffering in Paul that caused him to even be moved to testify to, perhaps his closest "love" in the faith...and one to whom these words one would think would not be needed...BUT...were said...nonetheless...
> 
> 1Ti_2:7  Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not) a teacher of the Gentiles in _faith and verity._
> 
> I might tell you..."I love my wife, I really do, I'm not lying"
> 
> You may hear the overwhelming grief I would have had to endure to be brought to tell "her"...the one to whom it SHOULD be plainest of all, regardless of what all other men may define love as, or despite all the denials she may have heard from other "better loved" wives..."Honey, I have loved you...in truth, and I am not lying..."
> 
> I am truly convinced of this thing...as I see it as surely in Paul...as I do in Jesus...when God gets a hold of someone by their heart...and by grace they cannot get free...nor want to...such a man will find himself in a place where he can neither explain..."prove" (especially by his own demonstrable deeds of righteousness)...God can get him "so far out there"...he may even forbid him the opportunity to even attempt to explain where he has him...and where that man knows...to everyone "else"...even his closest companions...(PERHAPS) he appears as a fool, a liar, perhaps even a deceived deceiver...because he cares no longer at all...is moved no longer at all...can consider, no longer at all (because he has had it revealed what a previously STRONG mainspring of his life and being it was...to seek the "understanding" and good opinion of others)...and he sees precisely what Jesus was addressing when he said this...
> 
> Joh_5:44  How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
> 
> Obviously...my long explanation tells you what kind of man I am. My "desire" to be understood
> But...I see someone...through a glass...maybe dimly...still.
> Loving Jesus, truly, from my heart...remains for me AT BEST, an aspiration. (I say at best...because really...I don't know if I even care to...only God truly knows me...and the WHY of me)
> I may tell men "They should" (love the Lord)...but at precisely the moment I see and hear the one speaking...I am convicted by how far short those words fall...in me...and trust someday...in the moment words will no longer be needed...instruction unnecessary...and hear someone encouraging to BELIEVE...truly believe...this:
> 
> Jer_31:34  And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
> 
> Till then, in me are words...BUT...in him is life.



I am very tired tonigh such that I don't understand much of anything really. But I am compelled to say this, not for any benefit to me, and perhaps to no one at all, but perhaps only a vague tune to the air.

I talked to a man today who said he wanted to ernestly  know God. He was sincere. He was "making God his target", he said. 

And that man I could not make him even consider to make himself the target of God, and not the other way around, to just stop long enough to let God do all the work. Just stop long enough to knock and wait. Instead the man wanted to make God stop from his busy rounds for him. That man had a long run ahead I think...

There is about falling in love, not a falling at all but a raising of the spirit, but as the soul stumbling on it, unexpected, an at first sight: a hovering that will never be mistaken for another's.

I have no idea why I say these things really, but...perhaps to ask you to put a dime in my Lord's cup, to stop just long enough and let him sing, say and hover on you.


----------



## Israel

gordon 2 said:


> I am very tired tonigh such that I don't understand much of anything really. But I am compelled to say this, not for any benefit to me, and perhaps to no one at all, but perhaps only a vague tune to the air.
> 
> I talked to a man today who said he wanted to ernestly  know God. He was sincere. He was "making God his target", he said.
> 
> And that man I could not make him even consider to make himself the target of God, and not the other way around, to just stop long enough to let God do all the work. Just stop long enough to knock and wait. Instead the man wanted to make God stop from his busy rounds for him. That man had a long run ahead I think...
> 
> There is about falling in love, not a falling at all but a raising of the spirit, but as the soul stumbling on it, unexpected, an at first sight: a hovering that will never be mistaken for another's.
> 
> I have no idea why I say these things really, but...perhaps to ask you to put a dime in my Lord's cup, to stop just long enough and let him sing, say and hover on you.


Bless you Gordon. Perhaps I have been awakened this am at 1, unable to return to sleep...just for your words. Perhaps I have been awakened in this tomb, into which I have been placed since 1951, just for their truth.


gordon 2 said:


> There is about falling in love, not a falling at all but a raising of the spirit, but as the soul stumbling on it, unexpected, an at first sight: a hovering that will never be mistaken for another's.



There is a clever expression attached to those "heroes"...idols...manufactured in the mind...often by Hollywood...or general myth. The truth of it often has deep roots in our beings...which other "wordmakers" will either get...or not...and which is beyond explaining...not because of its depth...but precisely because of its obvious-ness.

"Women want him. Men want to be him."

It seems to describe, in some very real way for me, a mindset once had...so plainly.
I wanted to "appear" a certain way.
To this end has sapped much effort...yielded much futility...because of its much deception.

It seems now, the wanting, the desire, the acknowledgement of someone I am not...had been used by an enemy in concord with a deceived soul, to have me try to be him...and in that I have seen the blasphemy of trying to "replace" him with myself.

I don't want to be him. I want to be with him.

Funny to discover in that, it was "I" closing the door to him...but now to see...how much he wants to be with each wordmaker.

"The desire to be "cool" is strong in this one, Master. Let us help him, by breaking it, utterly".


----------



## hummerpoo

Israel said:


> Here's what I see...if the Lord has distilled it sufficiently for/in me.
> Jesus IS the fulfillment of the law and the prophets, in that...all of it pointed to a "man" the Messiah...not a doing. Jesus is what the man to whom the commandments of God are life...looks like. He is the man who "really" keeps the law...neither by an outward show, nor just the mouthing of instructions and commandments.
> Indeed, in Jesus IS the only place the law is kept.
> 
> If a man can receive this...
> 
> If I complain about something...does it not within the complaint contain the presumption...that it must therefore be something of which I am not culpable? Or, is that not at least what I _hope_ to imply?
> "How stupid people are!"
> 
> Isn't my presumption in being able to say this so broadly...that I MUST therefore not be stupid...like them?
> 
> "How religious people are!"...what is the presumption there?
> 
> Now, of course, to the enlightened onlooker, or hearer, like YOU...you might say within yourself, (or if boldness prompts it)...confront me with: "brother...you really have no idea how stupid and religious you are, yourself!". (generally the Lord's response to me at such times of exasperation...and such exasperation...outrage even...that may fool some folks...but never, the Lord)
> 
> To some extent I believe Paul was addressing the foolishness of those who "loved" to teach the law.."Don't steal..." (what did Paul say...)
> Don't commit adultery (again, what did Paul say?)
> I believe Paul saw that often the loving of the teaching is not more than lip service...precisely because the implication is..."If I teach the law, I must therefore be a "keeper" of it! Is there SOMETHING so strong in us that "forces" us to seek to display our own righteousness? Is there anything stronger? Where, Oh, where is he...for I need him always!
> 
> Why is this?
> 
> Why is the insufficiency of simply saying "You know, you should love God with your whole heart" something other than what the Lord obviously is saying when he says this:
> 
> 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;
> 
> That's why I mentioned what is the apparent peculiarity of it. Jesus DID NOT say "whoever breaks and teaches men to break the commandments is - eternally darned"...because it is not a matter of simple word instruction.
> 
> Do we seek to please the Lord...(at best)...and sometimes fall short?
> 
> All our instructions mean NOTHING, unless, and until, the Word of God has been so formed in us that we are, by the reality of OUR LIVES, a living epistle of instruction in righteousness.
> 
> If I think "keeping the law" is simply keeping my hand out of my neighbor's pocket...Jesus tells me..."NO! It is in BEING the man who is not even concerned or aware of what his neighbor may have in his pocket!"
> 
> I may say..."I am qualified to teach "thou shalt not commit adultery"...because I have never laid a physical hand on my neighbor's wife.
> 
> But what does Jesus say? NO!, until you are the man who doesn't even "check out" his neighbor's wife...the law...is not really kept.
> 
> 
> So many "things" of me...are in perfect opposition to the true spiritual nature of the law, and by my very practice indeed, I not only fall short...BUT...by example....TEACH others to fall short.
> 
> So, regardless of how I may say the law is holy, and just, and good, I betray...both in word and deed, the discrepancies...found in me.
> 
> O! wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from this body of death?
> 
> WE are all...always...teaching SOMETHING.
> 
> I believe that is why Jesus said what he said...and Paul came to understand the futility of trusting in anything OTHER than the Lord Jesus Christ both for, and as...salvation.
> 
> And, if we can...or may, even use Paul as an example...we discover...it is PRECISELY his love of God from the heart...revealed by the spirit...that convicts me of AND by a man who completely abandoned trying to demonstrate his own righteousness...became a fool, outcast...by word...to not only those amongst whom he had former conversation (the Jews/Pharisees of his day)...but even...amongst believers...(I believe) for whom he had laid down his very life...something of a fool.
> 
> You may ask..."where did you get such an idea...what makes you think Paul had something less than constant applause among all his "children" in the faith...amongst all those to whom he had ministered...and before whom he had plainly lived?"
> 
> I see a wealth of suffering in Paul that caused him to even be moved to testify to, perhaps his closest "love" in the faith...and one to whom these words one would think would not be needed...BUT...were said...nonetheless...
> 
> 1Ti_2:7  Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not) a teacher of the Gentiles in _faith and verity._
> 
> I might tell you..."I love my wife, I really do, I'm not lying"
> 
> You may hear the overwhelming grief I would have had to endure to be brought to tell "her"...the one to whom it SHOULD be plainest of all, regardless of what all other men may define love as, or despite all the denials she may have heard from other "better loved" wives..."Honey, I have loved you...in truth, and I am not lying..."
> 
> I am truly convinced of this thing...as I see it as surely in Paul...as I do in Jesus...when God gets a hold of someone by their heart...and by grace they cannot get free...nor want to...such a man will find himself in a place where he can neither explain..."prove" (especially by his own demonstrable deeds of righteousness)...God can get him "so far out there"...he may even forbid him the opportunity to even attempt to explain where he has him...and where that man knows...to everyone "else"...even his closest companions...(PERHAPS) he appears as a fool, a liar, perhaps even a deceived deceiver...because he cares no longer at all...is moved no longer at all...can consider, no longer at all (because he has had it revealed what a previously STRONG mainspring of his life and being it was...to seek the "understanding" and good opinion of others)...and he sees precisely what Jesus was addressing when he said this...
> 
> Joh_5:44  How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
> 
> Obviously...my long explanation tells you what kind of man I am. My "desire" to be understood
> But...I see someone...through a glass...maybe dimly...still.
> Loving Jesus, truly, from my heart...remains for me AT BEST, an aspiration. (I say at best...because really...I don't know if I even care to...only God truly knows me...and the WHY of me)
> I may tell men "They should" (love the Lord)...but at precisely the moment I see and hear the one speaking...I am convicted by how far short those words fall...in me...and trust someday...in the moment words will no longer be needed...instruction unnecessary...and hear someone encouraging to BELIEVE...truly believe...this:
> 
> Jer_31:34  And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
> 
> Till then, in me are words...BUT...in him is life.



Very early in my journey with "scripture and Spirit", which has an aura of infinite length, it came to me that if a thing is not connected, step by step, to love of God, then there are more pieces to be found, or incorrect pieces in place.

While I found this to be true, it is also true that His love for His creatures is such that the map is drawn out clearly.  However, we, all men, have eyes of flesh.  Seeing Spirit through flesh reveals a dim or distorted image.  If we lay several dim or distorted images on top of each other, we have two possibilities (dependent upon the quality of the images); one clearer, the other an indeciferable blob.  Will we strive for the clearer image or be satisfied with the dim one we each have?


----------



## gordon 2

Israel said:


> Bless you Gordon. Perhaps I have been awakened this am at 1, unable to return to sleep...just for your words. Perhaps I have been awakened in this tomb, into which I have been placed since 1951, just for their truth.
> 
> 
> There is a clever expression attached to those "heroes"...idols...manufactured in the mind...often by Hollywood...or general myth. The truth of it often has deep roots in our beings...which other "wordmakers" will either get...or not...and which is beyond explaining...not because of its depth...but precisely because of its obvious-ness.
> 
> "Women want him. Men want to be him."
> 
> It seems to describe, in some very real way for me, a mindset once had...so plainly.
> I wanted to "appear" a certain way.
> To this end has sapped much effort...yielded much futility...because of its much deception.
> 
> It seems now, the wanting, the desire, the acknowledgement of someone I am not...had been used by an enemy in concord with a deceived soul, to have me try to be him...and in that I have seen the blasphemy of trying to "replace" him with myself.
> 
> I don't want to be him. I want to be with him.
> 
> Funny to discover in that, it was "I" closing the door to him...but now to see...how much he wants to be with each wordmaker.
> 
> "The desire to be "cool" is strong in this one, Master. Let us help him, by breaking it, utterly".



I see Mr. Clean when I read these words. ( The soap, Mr Clean.) Don't know if it is available to you...but..."Women want him. Men want to be him." LOL

This tread is really off the rails for me...I'd say...  now a home for God's hobos like me. I should not be here.  I think I'll move on. I fear the brakeman will be cleaning up soon, the owners will rightfull want to take it up again. So I'll see you and Hum in some next yard perhaps. There is a freight coming up from somewhere--I think I'll move along. Peace.


----------



## Israel

Peace Gordon.
Hummerpoo, yes.
The love of God.
yes. can any man "see" it...and remain as he was?
we teach the three "R"s...recognize, receive, respond.
Strangely...there is no incorrect order.


----------



## barryl

hummerpoo said:


> Being one easily confused I often find myself spending an inordinate amount of time pondering some questions.  For example, why do those who state the law to be dead seldom, if ever, identify the precepts of law which they willfully ignore?


Since I am the thread starter{been wanting to see where this goes for 3-4- Days}, I often wonder why{People,Groups, sects, cults,Denominations, etc.} want to drag N.T. Christians back under law{The Gospels, Acts}. You highlighted Matt. 5:19, You will notice that this scripture is directed to Jews, while The Lord Jesus Christ was on this earth during his "Earthly Ministry".{Kingdom of Heaven} There is something to be learned{Spiritualized} through scripture,but, cannot be applied "Doctrinally' to the N.T.,Born Again,Christian.{Gal 3:22-26;Romans 6:14-17; 7:3-6} Here's an "example" used to draw a Christian back into the O.T. Ellen B. White{Seventh Day Adventism}, her supposed "plan of salvation" was Matt. 5:18-20


----------



## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> Since I am the thread starter{been wanting to see where this goes for 3-4- Days}, I often wonder why{People,Groups, sects, cults,Denominations, etc.} want to drag N.T. Christians back under law{The Gospels, Acts}. You highlighted Matt. 5:19, You will notice that this scripture is directed to Jews, while The Lord Jesus Christ was on this earth during his "Earthly Ministry".{Kingdom of Heaven} There is something to be learned{Spiritualized} through scripture,but, cannot be applied "Doctrinally' to the N.T.,Born Again,Christian.{Gal 3:22-26;Romans 6:14-17; 7:3-6} Here's an "example" used to draw a Christian back into the O.T. Ellen B. White{Seventh Day Adventism}, her supposed "plan of salvation" was Matt. 5:18-20



Are you saying that in your opinion, and in your church's opinion the life of Jesus, and His teachings, aren't relevant to the church and to Christians today?

And are you saying that in your opinion, and in your church's opinion that the book of Acts predates the church and thus it's writings are not relevant or doctrinal to the church and to Christians today?
.


----------



## barryl

Ronnie T said:


> Are you saying that in your opinion, and in your church's opinion the life of Jesus, and His teachings, aren't relevant to the church and to Christians today?
> 
> And are you saying that in your opinion, and in your church's opinion that the book of Acts predates the church and thus it's writings are not relevant or doctrinal to the church and to Christians today?
> .


No! You are saying that not me. Read the whole post. I said, "there are things to be learned through scripture". The Gospels{Jesus's Earthly Ministry} and Acts,{Transition}{Body of Christ,Romans thru Philemon}Learning to "Rightly Divide the word of Truth" will open up the word of God!!


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> No! You are saying that not me. Read the whole post. I said, "there are things to be learned through scripture". The Gospels{Jesus's Earthly Ministry} and Acts,{Transition}{Body of Christ,Romans thru Philemon}Learning to "Rightly Divide the word of Truth" will open up the word of God!!



I don't see how you're coming up with this.  Acts is Luke's history of _the early church_, not some transitional body.


----------



## Israel

barryl said:


> No! You are saying that not me. Read the whole post. I said, "there are things to be learned through scripture". The Gospels{Jesus's Earthly Ministry} and Acts,{Transition}{Body of Christ,Romans thru Philemon}Learning to "Rightly Divide the word of Truth" will open up the word of God!!


It is not that I have an issue at all with the word orthotomeo...but I have never been convinced it ever means anything other than rightly discerning and presenting the truth found in scripture.
I have heard many seek to apply it to a dissecting in particular of covenantal issues...as though lines are drawn through gospels and epistles...separating them. For this to be true...then Paul's specific instruction to Timothy was in handling scriptures...not even yet completed...nor assembled...nor even available for his instruction.
I have no problem even saying this...I am sure Timothy didn't receive this letter from Paul and think..."Oh, good...more scripture is in my mailbox".
We are the ones that "look back" and try to elevate...and also therefore discard...the many things "written of God".
I am no longer leather bound, in any sense...nor really, is any believer.
If you care to understand that...that is "spiritualize" it for learning...you may discover it's as much "scripture" as "in the beginning God..."


----------



## hummerpoo

barryl said:


> Since I am the thread starter{been wanting to see where this goes for 3-4- Days}, I often wonder why{People,Groups, sects, cults,Denominations, etc.} want to drag N.T. Christians back under law{The Gospels, Acts}. You highlighted Matt. 5:19, You will notice that this scripture is directed to Jews, while The Lord Jesus Christ was on this earth during his "Earthly Ministry".{Kingdom of Heaven} There is something to be learned{Spiritualized} through scripture,but, cannot be applied "Doctrinally' to the N.T.,Born Again,Christian.{Gal 3:22-26;Romans 6:14-17; 7:3-6} Here's an "example" used to draw a Christian back into the O.T. Ellen B. White{Seventh Day Adventism}, her supposed "plan of salvation" was Matt. 5:18-20



Thank you for the effort, but I must admit that I do not understand your response, nor can I relate it to the question which I ask.


----------



## Israel

Hummerpoo, perhaps thinking doctrine is something other than something "spiritualized"...becomes the problem...temporarily, amongst brothers in the faith.
Some receive the scriptures as "blueprints"...other perhaps, have come to understand...read and walk long enough...and you'll discover what shade of paint is in the men's room.
They really do "address everything" quite particularly...and nothing is without benefit.
Even "begats" have interesting lessons.


----------



## barryl

hummerpoo said:


> Thank you for the effort, but I must admit that I do not understand your response, nor can I relate it to the question which I ask.


A couple of questions if you don't mind. Are you Jewish? Do you keep the Commandments? Do you offer sacrifices regularly for your sin debt? Were you around when Christ was among the Isrealites?


----------



## barryl

Man, I thought that this "Spiritual Discussions and Study" forum was for people seeking truth. Here's some scriptures pertaining to the "Blanket Theory" everyone wants to use. 1 Cor. 10: 1-15, in particular verse 11- "Now  all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."


----------



## barryl

Is anyone going to answer Hobbs27's question about losing salvation and getting it back? How about my question, Have you been "Spiritually Circumcised?"


----------



## hummerpoo

Israel said:


> Hummerpoo, perhaps thinking doctrine is something other than something "spiritualized"...becomes the problem...temporarily, amongst brothers in the faith.
> Some receive the scriptures as "blueprints"...other perhaps, have come to understand...read and walk long enough...and you'll discover what shade of paint is in the men's room.
> They really do "address everything" quite particularly...and nothing is without benefit.
> Even "begats" have interesting lessons.



Working with blueprints, I am always amazed by the many approaches taken to understanding them.  Some will start with the Site Plan, then the Floor Plan, then the Exterior Elevations, then the Enlarged Floor Plans, and so on until all of the Details have been incorporated into the mental image that will become a building.  Others will start elsewhere, according to their interest, and follow a different path to the whole.  However, that is not a functioning facility until the Civil, Structural, HVAC, Plumbing, and Electrical Plans (all of which have the same levels of detail) are interfaced with the Architectural Plans.  The amazing part is that you can start anywhere you choose and develop an understanding of the whole by following the right path.  It would be quite a useful tool were the plans not full of errors (which they always are).

The word and concept of doctrine is one that I have yet to understand.  It, doctrine, looks to me like one room, or perhaps the Plumbing Plans, either attempting to address all elements effecting one area, or one element for all areas, and is never applied with recognition of its limitations.

With blueprints, given some arbitrary limitation on minimum project size, no one person fully understands the whole, most assuredly the Architect, who is dependent upon the engineers, or the tradesman, who are dependent upon supervision.  With life, the Architect does understand the whole, and He directs the process.  There are engineers, and supervision is appointed, but every tradesman has a full set and plans in front of him, he has the principles of construction written on his heart, and he has a professional Plan Reader with him at all times.  When something (doctrine) doesn’t seem to fit, the tradesman can go to supervision, or through supervision to the engineers (who created the doctrine) and, perhaps, receive direction.  Thank you Lord for the Plan Reader through Whom is direct access to the Architect.  Whatever my assigned task today, I know that the tools, materials, instructions, coordination, and training will accompany the assignment.

With blueprints, as with life, success comes when we get our answers from the correct source.

If you have read to this point, you are very patient, or have excess time on your hands.  Just think, I could have included the Specification Manual in the analogy.


----------



## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> How about my question, Have you been "Spiritually Circumcised?"





Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

Acts 22:16 Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.’

Romans 6:What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.


----------



## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> Man, I thought that this "Spiritual Discussions and Study" forum was for people seeking truth. Here's some scriptures pertaining to the "Blanket Theory" everyone wants to use. 1 Cor. 10: 1-15, in particular verse 11- "Now  all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."



The Spiritual discussions and Study forum is a place where believers come to discuss and study.
Everyone coming here should be "seeking" something....... be it growth, broader understands of other Christians, and often coming to terms with our own beliefs.  
Hopefully, something can be learned by all who visit and live here.  Including you and I.
.


----------



## Israel

hummerpoo said:


> Working with blueprints, I am always amazed by the many approaches taken to understanding them.  Some will start with the Site Plan, then the Floor Plan, then the Exterior Elevations, then the Enlarged Floor Plans, and so on until all of the Details have been incorporated into the mental image that will become a building.  Others will start elsewhere, according to their interest, and follow a different path to the whole.  However, that is not a functioning facility until the Civil, Structural, HVAC, Plumbing, and Electrical Plans (all of which have the same levels of detail) are interfaced with the Architectural Plans.  The amazing part is that you can start anywhere you choose and develop an understanding of the whole by following the right path.  It would be quite a useful tool were the plans not full of errors (which they always are).
> 
> The word and concept of doctrine is one that I have yet to understand.  It, doctrine, looks to me like one room, or perhaps the Plumbing Plans, either attempting to address all elements effecting one area, or one element for all areas, and is never applied with recognition of its limitations.
> 
> With blueprints, given some arbitrary limitation on minimum project size, no one person fully understands the whole, most assuredly the Architect, who is dependent upon the engineers, or the tradesman, who are dependent upon supervision.  With life, the Architect does understand the whole, and He directs the process.  There are engineers, and supervision is appointed, but every tradesman has a full set and plans in front of him, he has the principles of construction written on his heart, and he has a professional Plan Reader with him at all times.  When something (doctrine) doesn’t seem to fit, the tradesman can go to supervision, or through supervision to the engineers (who created the doctrine) and, perhaps, receive direction.  Thank you Lord for the Plan Reader through Whom is direct access to the Architect.  Whatever my assigned task today, I know that the tools, materials, instructions, coordination, and training will accompany the assignment.
> 
> With blueprints, as with life, success comes when we get our answers from the correct source.
> 
> If you have read to this point, you are very patient, or have excess time on your hands.  Just think, I could have included the Specification Manual in the analogy.




I read it eagerly.

We all have predispositions according to the formation of our souls.
Your previous analogy as to the overlapping images addresses this. If the distortion in our souls is great the projected image is also greatly distorted. (if you see, as I do, the soul as primarily an organ of amplification and "interface")

We may tend to gravitate to certain areas of scripture that particularly seem in accord with our condition. Because our view is lopsided, our "doctrines" become lopsided. A "pure" soul will allow the input from the spirit free and unhindered passage...but the dings, dents, mars and gouges from our previous conversation where our souls were damaged by transmissions of caustic words and hurtful lessons...needs to be healed. Till then...we show, plainly, those distortions. It is our soul the Lord loves...for it is there he seeks to find his image perfectly reflected...his love received...and returned. We are souls, alive now in the spirit...no longer restricted to simply fleshly inputs and confined to reflecting carnal impulses.  We still have bodies of humiliation...that make demands...grow weary...but these are worn only for the purpose of being among those still trapped by their confines. 
And God gives grace. 
Much grace.


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Man, I thought that this "Spiritual Discussions and Study" forum was for people seeking truth.



Where in the world did you get that?


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Is anyone going to answer Hobbs27's question about losing salvation and getting it back?



Salvation is a journey.  Some people lose their way.




barryl said:


> Have you been "Spiritually Circumcised?"



Yes.


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## gordon 2

barryl said:


> Is anyone going to answer Hobbs27's question about losing salvation and getting it back? How about my question, Have you been "Spiritually Circumcised?"



What centerpin fan said regards Hobbs question. But also scripture seems plain: to drink out of the cup of demons, to willfully cleave to idols will get you lost, but God with any trial he will give you a way out...

if you choose!

And that choice leads to the Lord's cup...again and again and again...if neccesary. A journey...as centerpin fan says.

Salvation is free only in the sense that it is God's will by the cross and no one believer, no one can or could pay Him for it. Now in direct union with God, next falling to idols is adultry and death, but for the cross ( Jesus) and the church ( the body of Christ) man can be raised to life more than once. Lazarus will be raised a second time to judgement. Saints are to encourage each other etc.

Now some chose the cup of the devil, making themselves Gods--Hedonists, Satanists making themselves the idols of life. And they choose knowing  scripture well and God's will  and salvation... and they do believe and they know well what will be their end. But they also can return... to the cross, if they choose.

Like the remenant in Jeremiah they choose death crossing into Egype, knowing well their choice. Their choice is willfull idolatry. I wonder what would have happened if they would have returned?

Now the devil would say, "I don't what your opinion Gordo, I what scripture." To which I leave him to the choice of law that is his flavor of the day. I walk by grace. Scripture is not my footstool. You are.


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## Artfuldodger

Were "elect" Christians ever lost? If God "elected" some to never be saved, why couldn't he "elect" some to lose their "election?"

Also can a free gift be returned? Can I do like God and love someone but not accept their lifestyle? Can I wait for that person to return on their on?


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## hobbs27

centerpin fan said:


> Salvation is a journey.  Some people lose their way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.


We disagree on salvation....our Christian walk is a journey but salvation is a birth. A conversion. Know of anyone that can testify to losing it?


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## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> We disagree on salvation....our Christian walk is a journey but salvation is a birth. A conversion. Know of anyone that can testify to losing it?



How can anyone deny being born? or even a conversion?--unless they lie.

No one can loose these events---unless they become impaired at the top. However they can choose to disregard these events and choose another birth, another conversion. Some devils  deny never having lost these, because they never had them, but they lie.


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## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> We disagree on salvation....our Christian walk is a journey but salvation is a birth.



I would say eternal life begins with a birth just as human life begins with a birth.




hobbs27 said:


> Know of anyone that can testify to losing it?



One example I've used in other OSAS threads was one of the ministers in my church.   He renounced his faith and joined the Nation of Islam.  Of course, he wouldn't say he had lost his salvation.  He would say he left a false faith and joined the true faith, thereby gaining salvation.


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## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> We disagree on salvation....our Christian walk is a journey but salvation is a birth. A conversion. Know of anyone that can testify to losing it?



Doctrinal issues again.  
One of the difficulties in Christian studies today is the problem of dealing with the fact that over a century ago some folks got together and decided that "Christian life" "new birth" "the journey" and "salvation" should all be separated.
.


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## gordon 2

Ronnie T said:


> Doctrinal issues again.
> One of the difficulties in Christian studies today is the problem of dealing with the fact that over a century ago some folks got together and decided that "Christian life" "new birth" "the journey" and "salvation" should all be separated.
> .



Is that what happened, really?


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## Ronnie T

gordon 2 said:


> Is that what happened, really?


----------



## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> We disagree on salvation....our Christian walk is a journey but salvation is a birth. A conversion. Know of anyone that can testify to losing it?



The Bible never encourages you to trust a past decision you made. Even Paul's confidence for eternal life was in fighting a good fight, finishing his course, and keeping the faith (II Tim 4:7-8). He knew whom he believed, not that he had believed, and not that he could remember when he had believed (II Tim 1:12)! 
(Rom 8:1).


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## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> Doctrinal issues again.
> One of the difficulties in Christian studies today is the problem of dealing with the fact that over a century ago some folks got together and decided that "Christian life" "new birth" "the journey" and "salvation" should all be separated.
> .



You cant have a Christian journey, unless you have been born again, which is salvation. 

Many will say, I healed in your name, and did great things in your name, and He will say, depart from me for I never knew you..... You can live like a Christian, and maybe better than most, but if you are not born of the spirit, you are not a Christian, and thats not doctrinal issue thats book.


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## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> You cant have a Christian journey, unless you have been born again, which is salvation.
> 
> Many will say, I healed in your name, and did great things in your name, and He will say, depart from me for I never knew you..... You can live like a Christian, and maybe better than most, but if you are not born of the spirit, you are not a Christian, and thats not doctrinal issue thats book.



I would agree. I would add "You can appear outwardly to live like a Christian".


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## gordon 2

gemcgrew said:


> I would agree. I would add "You can appear outwardly to live like a Christian".



Outwardly my wife who examines me closely says that I look like a mad and angry, most annoyed and cross, hating to be distrubed @@##$%^&&*@. SO- of a man. I'm a rattler.

But inwardly she say I'm the most honest @#$$%^&@ that she ever met. I'm a lamb. 

Not to many people have her assessment skills. She's a trained and continually upgrading professional. She's a nurse on a busy surgical floor. Not to many people can say whats on the inside and the outside after a brief conversation like my honey. But she can.

I would suggest that a lot of people are christians inside and out, but most have nurotic issues with control, loss of control, vaneties and "I have too many or no cares in the world issues." Issues with conciousness and reality, what they are...etc...

Some wear black hats and would never dream to stear you wrong, some are white hats that have no bit in the mouth-- and when they do they bite it down...deep down. Some are all hat and no cows and others are billionaires driving VW bugs.

People (and  christians) is what it is. All kinds.


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## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> The Bible never encourages you to trust a past decision you made. Even Paul's confidence for eternal life was in fighting a good fight, finishing his course, and keeping the faith (II Tim 4:7-8). He knew whom he believed, not that he had believed, and not that he could remember when he had believed (II Tim 1:12)!
> (Rom 8:1).



You think Paul never looked back on that day he was just going along that road to Damascus and the Lord Jesus came to him and blinded him, spoke to him? Soon he got his sight back, a new name, and a new work!

 Those men of Galilee, when they realized Jesus was Christ and it pricked them to their hearts at what they had done... you dont think they ever looked back on that day as they recieved the Holy Spirit?

  I have a time and a moment that I was converted. I remember it well, but have a hard time explaining what happened. All I know is the song Amazing Grace covers the feeling pretty good....which was written by a man about his experience with grace well over a hundred years ago.
 To go from a sad, depressed , and lonely feeling, to a feeling of jubilation and extreme love and friendship with everyone around you in a matter of minutes..it was like being smothered and all the sudden having an extra lung to breathe, and oh how beautiful everything looked at that moment. Everything was new looking, even the old wrinkled faces around me all had youth to them.
 The devil has tried to take away my joy in salvation many times, but I can always take him back to that time and that place and demand he get behind me.


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## Israel

In the medical field, as you all know, is something a patient agrees to before the physician can begin a "procedure"...it is called "Informed Consent". The physician (in a perfect world) instructs the patient in terms he can hopefully understand, of what he will be doing...and includes all the possible dangers and risks involved.

Obviously, the presumed goal is a healing of sorts...despite the possibility of negative outcomes...and almost always is included some recognition that ANY going into another person's body will necessitate some (at least) temporary experience of pain.
If, and when the patient agrees, he signs it, dates it and has a witness to this.

It is only after this, the physician can begin his work.
This silly analogy breaks down in every way but this...at any time the patient is free to exercise his own will, and right up until the anesthesia may say "I am not going any further" without any legal consequence to himself...just the tacit understanding he is going to be left untreated. The physician, however, does not have that luxury. He cannot say on the morning of surgery, "I don't feel like doing this today" or "I am too scared to proceed" or "wow, I just found out I was in over my head, I don't know how to do this at all..." In all those cases...a charge of patient abandonment is likely to follow.

"Primum non nocere." First, do no harm.

Our physician's training is testified to by the resurrection...the "licensing board" has found his word and practice true and skilled.
He underwent this training by allowing the Word of God to have free course in his own self...and has manifestly demonstrated the outcome of such submission in the resurrection. Perfect health...now free...completely... of any damage at all that death could either threaten...or in all its furious exertion upon his own body...keep. 

There are two salient questions I once asked of two separate practitioners. 
The first was a bariatric surgeon, who specialized in gastric bypass surgery...a surgery in which radical changes as, many of you know, are performed upon the digestive tract to effectively staple the stomach to a much smaller size and make a connection that bypasses part of the small intestine. This is to help folks lose weight, and only the most obese whose excess body size is a threat to their "health" are qualified to undergo.
There is another procedure, however...far less intrusive, far less radical, and completely reversible called "lap banding". In it a surgeon places an inflatable ring/donut...around the stomach...and depending upon how much inflation is recommended the stomach effectively becomes smaller. Patients feel "full" quicker...and adjust their eating habits therefore...and lose weight.

I asked the surgeon...which is the better "way".
He kind of laughed at the question and answered..."You know, they have done studies...asking surgeons "Which procedure would you recommend for a patient" and unabashedly he told me that a high percentage recommended the very radical, costly,  (and therefore profitable to the surgeon) gastric bypass.
He went on to say that when surgeons were asked which procedure they themselves would choose for themselves if needed...a similarly high percentage chose the less invasive and radical "lap banding".

Another physician in whom I recognized both a desire to help his patients...but with a concomitant "love" of his practice...that is...he would spend many long days doing procedures...delighting in the "work"...so that at times it is difficult to discern which is greater...the desire to relieve suffering...or simple pleasure in the practice of "doctoring"?

Despite his being a professing atheist who faithfully attended Temple every shabbot...I asked:
"Doc, I know you say you don't believe in God...but what if an angel of the Lord appeared to you in your bedroom tonight...and you knew in your heart this was a real visitation from the God of Abraham (I used references with which he would be familiar)...and this angel told you this...which you would believe..."Tomorrow...when you awaken, all disease and illness of all and any sort will be gone forever..."

I asked him "Doc...would you be happy?"

His candor in the moment was remarkably clear and telling:
"Gee", he said, "I suppose I _should_ be."

It is easy to fall in love with "the work"...of thinking oneself a helper, a guide to the blind, pouring over words that will allow us to sound knowledgeable to the hearers. We often mistake this for the ministry of the gospel.

Gordon mentioned the return to the cup...again and again.
But how will my death "help" anything at all, anyone at all...aren't I needed to do "the work"?
The work is to undergo the severe surgery you may casually recommend to others while reserving the less severe to yourself. The work is to put to death the thing that would profit in any way by the suffering of others, either by making you feel needed, better, more informed, and which...by its very perspective MUST and WILL always force you to see others in an inferior way...because you are striving so hard to justify your own existence...either as a doctor, a lawyer, a pastor, a christian. 

To see the resurrection...is to see the only one the world has ever needed. And one either agrees that if he be lifted up from "our own" earth he will do and be all he has said for all in their drawing to himself...or we exalt our own earthiness...and by agreement...again...by something Gordon mentioned...drinking the cup of devils...we seek to keep him buried.

Our physician has given very much information as to his cure...the promise of glory and health with many sufferings. But he recommends nothing to us...that he did not first allow practiced and proved through his conquest of death...upon himself.


----------



## hummerpoo

Israel said:


> I read it eagerly.
> 
> We all have predispositions according to the formation of our souls.
> Your previous analogy as to the overlapping images addresses this. If the distortion in our souls is great the projected image is also greatly distorted. (if you see, as I do, the soul as primarily an organ of amplification and "interface")
> 
> We may tend to gravitate to certain areas of scripture that particularly seem in accord with our condition. Because our view is lopsided, our "doctrines" become lopsided. A "pure" soul will allow the input from the spirit free and unhindered passage...but the dings, dents, mars and gouges from our previous conversation where our souls were damaged by transmissions of caustic words and hurtful lessons...needs to be healed. Till then...we show, plainly, those distortions. It is our soul the Lord loves...for it is there he seeks to find his image perfectly reflected...his love received...and returned. We are souls, alive now in the spirit...no longer restricted to simply fleshly inputs and confined to reflecting carnal impulses.  We still have bodies of humiliation...that make demands...grow weary...but these are worn only for the purpose of being among those still trapped by their confines. And God gives grace.
> Much grace.



LIKE!
A very insightful and helpful image.
Do you subscribe to the definition of soul as will, emotion and mind?


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## Israel

yep...pretty much...that whole "self consciousness" thing is a trip..."I" am aware of myself...like a guy in a movie theatre...I have asked the Lord...am "I" the guy in the audience, the projectionist...or the screen..."I" am watching?
Then sometimes it's like I'm at a drive in...and I look to see what's playing on the screen behind me...I am convinced however...we will follow...like a man finding himself "swerving" toward the accident on the side of the road...the thing that has has our attention...


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## hummerpoo

Israel said:


> yep...pretty much...that whole "self consciousness" thing is a trip..."I" am aware of myself...like a guy in a movie theatre...I have asked the Lord...am "I" the guy in the audience, the projectionist...or the screen..."I" am watching?
> Then sometimes it's like I'm at a drive in...and I look to see what's playing on the screen behind me...I am convinced however...we will follow...like a man finding himself "swerving" toward the accident on the side of the road...the thing that has has our attention...



Me too ... it's more useful for talking than for thinking.


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## barryl

Well, I guess it's time to shut another thread down. Why, because anyone that says you can lose salvation hasn't given the first bit of "personal" evidence of how "YOU can take yourself out". It has gone off topic to, misapplying scripture to try to prove that anyone can lose it except yourself, to Calvinism{election}, to COC{Baptismal Regeneration}, Philosophy, or Baptist{license to sin}.


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Well, I guess it's time to shut another thread down. Why, because anyone that says you can lose salvation hasn't given the first bit of "personal" evidence of how "YOU can take yourself out". It has gone off topic to, misapplying scripture to try to prove that anyone can lose it except yourself, to Calvinism{election}, to COC{Baptismal Regeneration}, Philosophy, or Baptist{license to sin}.



BB, if it makes you happy ...

I believe if I renounce God, embrace Satan, and begin pimping out underage girls to finance my heroin habit, I will lose my salvation.


----------



## Israel

as to philosophy, I'll raise my hand and say "Hey I am unabashedly guilty of that"...even according to its Wikipedia definition!
If you can't hear me "on the subject" then...at least listen to Jesus...who may or may not have "only" been speaking to Jews...when he said this:

Luk 12:18  And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods. 
Luk 12:19  _And I will say to my soul_, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry. 
Luk 12:20  But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided? 

Of course I can't make anyone have an interest in Jesus' understanding of the inner man...but since even Paul...who called himself an apostle...and whom I receive as one...spoke much of the "inner" man...and if it doesn't provoke one to even ponder...who is speaking...to WHAT... when Jesus says a man speaks thus:
 "I" will say to my soul...well, like I said...I sure can't make it any more interesting to anyone...than it either already is...or perhaps even..._should_ be.

Kinda makes me wonder...who...or what...has been lying to "my" soul about stuff...and making prophecies and promises it can neither fulfill...nor even have a legitimate right to utter.

Perhaps knowing where Satan's seat is...and who the man of lawlessness is...and where "he" sits...may even help someone like me to see him unseated...Rev 2:13/2 Thess 2:3


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## gemcgrew

barryl said:


> Well, I guess it's time to shut another thread down. Why, because anyone that says you can lose salvation hasn't given the first bit of "personal" evidence of how "YOU can take yourself out". It has gone off topic to, misapplying scripture to try to prove that anyone can lose it except yourself, to Calvinism{election}, to COC{Baptismal Regeneration}, Philosophy, or Baptist{license to sin}.


Surely you are not suggesting that "election" is going "off topic". Election would suggest that "you didn't put yourself in". I agree with you on preservation but preservation is very problematic for your theology, for it denies the "freewill" that you so ardently defend.


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Surely you are not suggesting that "election" is going "off topic". Election would suggest that "you didn't put yourself in". I agree with you on preservation but preservation is very problematic for your theology, for it denies the "freewill" that you so ardently defend.



I would agree "election" supports eternal security. I don't know why he put that one in his list of off topics.
It does make it problematic when "freewill" believers think their freewill stops at "conversion."
Your "election" belief makes more sense than Barryl's "freewill ending at conversion" belief.


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## barryl

gemcgrew said:


> Surely you are not suggesting that "election" is going "off topic". Election would suggest that "you didn't put yourself in". I agree with you on preservation but preservation is very problematic for your theology, for it denies the "freewill" that you so ardently defend.


Hey Gem, no problem, I believe the Bible{KJV AV} and it doesn't matter what we know, cause, if we aren't "in Christ", knowledge ain't worth ten cent. I believe that I wasn't elected till I recieved the "Sinless Blood Sacrifice" of the "Lord Jesus Christ".


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## hobbs27

barryl said:


> I believe that I wasn't elected till I recieved the "Sinless Blood Sacrifice" of the "Lord Jesus Christ".




 Me too. The nomination came first. . I believe the Good Lord knows who will accept and who will not, but I also think we will all have an oppurtunity since God is just. The rich man suffered in he11 knowing he could have changed things...and just wanted to go back to warn his family. 
 Part of the torment is knowing you had a chance.


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## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> Hey Gem, no problem, I believe the Bible{KJV AV} and it doesn't matter what we know, cause, if we aren't "in Christ", knowledge ain't worth ten cent. I believe that I wasn't elected till I recieved the "Sinless Blood Sacrifice" of the "Lord Jesus Christ".



I also agree with you.  'Knowledge ain't worth ten cent if we aren't "in Christ".  
.


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## Israel

I know that Gem doesn't need defending...but wonder if we sometimes approach a brother's offering with less than kindness.
I know that I have often done so.

What if a man has no interest in defending what appears as his "knowledge"...but which, through much consideration he has come to see as something of a revelation of the nature of God and his dealings amongst us. 

What if a man is able to see the blessedness of knowing he has been chosen...specifically...irrefutably...from the foundation of the world? (and indeed...before)

Now...we all know the dangers of mishandling and misapplying any understanding granted by the Lord...at least I do...see in myself... that with knowledge of God comes a requisite seeking of grace...to understand that knowledge has come by grace...and not some innate "specialness" I so easily, yet seemingly unconsciously, am ready to take to myself.
A man who sees he has been purposed to know God, by God, and not anything of himself...can only be humbled by that understanding...that God indeed has "gone out of his way" to make himself known to such a one.
Now, I understand that, like Joseph such knowledge shared may at first provoke a jealousy...even in Joseph's rightly discerning...but perhaps...less than fully grasped...significance.

The notion of being chosen is precious. But the working reality of it...when tempered by many sufferings, (consider Paul)...may yield the deeper understanding of such grace...and such necessary humiliations...to bring about the fruit suitable for the Master's calling of us.

"Can you drink of the cup of which I drink?"
"Sho nuff" they might have just as easily said...completely unknowing. But Jesus was less than bothered by their easy (at least as it appears to me) ignorance of what being chosen meant...to confirming to them..."yes, you will indeed".

So it is...the purpose of being chosen is not for self glorying...but as a sort of touchstone of "grace" that may be called upon to remind us in those times of severe trial (and yes, they come for us all)...that we may find the comfort of the spirit speaking to our quaking souls..."don't worry, you didn't get yourself into this...it's happening because you are mine...and as surely as I have called you...I got this handled, too".

No soldier goes to war at his own expense. There's great comfort in knowing one has been conscripted...for the volunteer may easily think..."well, I did a good thing by volunteering...that should be enough...I'm ready to go "neutral now"..."


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## hobbs27

Proverbs 9


6 Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.

7 He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot.

8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

9 Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.

10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

11 For by me thy days shall be multiplied, and the years of thy life shall be increased.


God is amazing, and from my experience He uses us how He see's fit. We may be stuck on some degree of belief just so He can put us in the right place at the right time to witness to a lost soul or aide a brother that's fallen away.
 I may not always sound like it, and I apologize for that now, but I respect anyone's belief that is different than mine...that gets lost in the debate platform of forums. Which according to the above ^^^. Maybe we shouldn't do?

 The most important thing is we know Jesus, and we fear The Lord..and are obedient to Him, cause He is the one we answer to.


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## Ronnie T

I think we're all guilty of that Bro Hobbs.
One day our Lord is going to bid us enter His presence up there.
He's going to instructs us to leave our 'beliefs' at the door.
I'll be so glad to do that.
.


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## gemcgrew

Israel said:


> I know that Gem doesn't need defending...but wonder if we sometimes approach a brother's offering with less than kindness.
> I know that I have often done so.
> 
> What if a man has no interest in defending what appears as his "knowledge"...but which, through much consideration he has come to see as something of a revelation of the nature of God and his dealings amongst us.
> 
> What if a man is able to see the blessedness of knowing he has been chosen...specifically...irrefutably...from the foundation of the world? (and indeed...before)
> 
> Now...we all know the dangers of mishandling and misapplying any understanding granted by the Lord...at least I do...see in myself... that with knowledge of God comes a requisite seeking of grace...to understand that knowledge has come by grace...and not some innate "specialness" I so easily, yet seemingly unconsciously, am ready to take to myself.
> A man who sees he has been purposed to know God, by God, and not anything of himself...can only be humbled by that understanding...that God indeed has "gone out of his way" to make himself known to such a one.
> Now, I understand that, like Joseph such knowledge shared may at first provoke a jealousy...even in Joseph's rightly discerning...but perhaps...less than fully grasped...significance.
> 
> The notion of being chosen is precious. But the working reality of it...when tempered by many sufferings, (consider Paul)...may yield the deeper understanding of such grace...and such necessary humiliations...to bring about the fruit suitable for the Master's calling of us.
> 
> "Can you drink of the cup of which I drink?"
> "Sho nuff" they might have just as easily said...completely unknowing. But Jesus was less than bothered by their easy (at least as it appears to me) ignorance of what being chosen meant...to confirming to them..."yes, you will indeed".
> 
> So it is...the purpose of being chosen is not for self glorying...but as a sort of touchstone of "grace" that may be called upon to remind us in those times of severe trial (and yes, they come for us all)...that we may find the comfort of the spirit speaking to our quaking souls..."don't worry, you didn't get yourself into this...it's happening because you are mine...and as surely as I have called you...I got this handled, too".
> 
> No soldier goes to war at his own expense. There's great comfort in knowing one has been conscripted...for the volunteer may easily think..."well, I did a good thing by volunteering...that should be enough...I'm ready to go "neutral now"..."


Israel, thank you. 

Israel, did you know that the bark on a pine tree goes all the way to the top? I had no idea until today. One day after surgery and my family is already annoyed with "do you see that?"..."Yes?"..."but do you really see that?"

What an amazing day!


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## Israel

Bless you Gem,  for your tenacity.
And I thank God for what both you and I "saw" yesterday!
Am glad the operation was by all clinical signs (look at this tree and tell me what you see) a success.

Grace is such a peculiar thing at times to us...because it is only found in one place...despite the fact that that "One" thing is inescapable and ever present. Almost like air in its ubiquity...but which when I discover a lack, becomes so much more than precious...I find out just how necessary even a single breath is.
It takes someone "full of it" to make me even aware of it...this thing I so easily take for granted...grace...and as I am led from situation to situation in which I discover its desperate need...I find it is only grace that reminds me to call out for his appearing...this one so "full of it".

Were it not for his purposed intrusion...I would know none of it.

Reminds me of a man who was very determined in his way, with his own purposes so clearly in sight...till he was knocked down and made blind for a time. So that he could also be brought "to see". 

I believe his testimony, as I have believed yours...I was sought and found by one for whom I was not even looking. Indeed, that "other" man was doing all in his own power to stamp out that name...he did it with death and chains...I just did it with words and deeds so unbecoming I was no less an infection mindlessly seeking to infect others against the truth I didn't know I was battling.
May we all, by his grace...be brought to our "right minds"...and sight.


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> Proverbs 9
> 
> 
> 6 Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.
> 
> 7 He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot.
> 
> 8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.
> 
> 9 Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.
> 
> 10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
> 
> 11 For by me thy days shall be multiplied, and the years of thy life shall be increased.
> 
> 
> God is amazing, and from my experience He uses us how He see's fit. We may be stuck on some degree of belief just so He can put us in the right place at the right time to witness to a lost soul or aide a brother that's fallen away.
> I may not always sound like it, and I apologize for that now, but I respect anyone's belief that is different than mine...that gets lost in the debate platform of forums. Which according to the above ^^^. Maybe we shouldn't do?
> 
> The most important thing is we know Jesus, and we fear The Lord..and are obedient to Him, cause He is the one we answer to.



This is kind of pretty my friend. Love the parables.

As for me and my off the wall points, well I never once thought that the folk praticipating on this forum were not wise.  Which is y in the spirit, I dare push my little envelope...with the wise--my brothers and sisters in Christ.


----------



## barryl

centerpin fan said:


> BB, if it makes you happy ...
> 
> I believe if I renounce God, embrace Satan, and begin pimping out underage girls to finance my heroin habit, I will lose my salvation.


C C If you have been "Spiritually Circumcised", which I believe you have been, and God has done to your heart what he has done to mine, the hypotheticals ain't apt to happen. Happy 4th ya'll!!


----------



## 04ctd

saw this, and thought I would post it to this thread...it says we cannot lose our salvation:

http://www.intouch.org/magazine/daily-devotion

_A church deacon once confessed a horrible sin in a social media site. After giving a description of what he’d done, the man commented, “I know there’s a price to pay for this sin now. And that price is death.”

Not only was his heart broken over what he had done; he also knew that the effect on his friends and family would be devastating. And yet, overshadowing his remorse was fear. He had become afraid of God, believing that the sovereign Lord of the universe was now “out to get him.”

What would you say to this believer? Does his statement reflect an appropriate view of God’s response to sin?

It’s true that Romans 6:23 clearly teaches that “the wages of sin is death”; however, this sorrowful young man had overlooked the all-important second half of the verse: “but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” If our Father gives us a gift, we can trust that He will never take it away; it becomes ours to keep—that’s what a gift is. We did nothing to deserve it, so we can do nothing to lose it. It all rests on God’s initiative.

Moreover, a greater theological principle is at work here. If the believer’s sin after salvation could require death—or any form of punishment—then Jesus’ sacrifice was insufficient. However, the Bible tells us that Jesus’ death was wholly sufficient and a once-for-all payment of mankind’s sin debt (Heb. 10:10).

Either Jesus’ blood does cover our sins, or it doesn’t. There’s no middle ground. The Holy Spirit, Christ’s words, and biblical testimony clearly assert that it does._


----------



## Artfuldodger

04ctd said:


> saw this, and thought I would post it to this thread...it says we cannot lose our salvation:
> 
> http://www.intouch.org/magazine/daily-devotion
> 
> _A church deacon once confessed a horrible sin in a social media site. After giving a description of what he’d done, the man commented, “I know there’s a price to pay for this sin now. And that price is death.”
> 
> Not only was his heart broken over what he had done; he also knew that the effect on his friends and family would be devastating. And yet, overshadowing his remorse was fear. He had become afraid of God, believing that the sovereign Lord of the universe was now “out to get him.”
> 
> What would you say to this believer? Does his statement reflect an appropriate view of God’s response to sin?
> 
> It’s true that Romans 6:23 clearly teaches that “the wages of sin is death”; however, this sorrowful young man had overlooked the all-important second half of the verse: “but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” If our Father gives us a gift, we can trust that He will never take it away; it becomes ours to keep—that’s what a gift is. We did nothing to deserve it, so we can do nothing to lose it. It all rests on God’s initiative.
> 
> Moreover, a greater theological principle is at work here. If the believer’s sin after salvation could require death—or any form of punishment—then Jesus’ sacrifice was insufficient. However, the Bible tells us that Jesus’ death was wholly sufficient and a once-for-all payment of mankind’s sin debt (Heb. 10:10).
> 
> Either Jesus’ blood does cover our sins, or it doesn’t. There’s no middle ground. The Holy Spirit, Christ’s words, and biblical testimony clearly assert that it does._



Are you saying Jesus won't be the judge of Christians when he returns?
The man in your story won't be judged or punished in this life but he will be judged in the next.


----------



## Bama4me

Thanks for the passionate discussion in the thread... gives me a deeper understanding of some things.

When you look at the NT teaching of salvation, there are 2 sides... (1) what God has offered to mankind and (2) what mankind must do to accept/keep God's offer (if anything).

Several passages such as Romans 6:23, Ephesians 2:4-6, and Philippians 1:28 all seem to suggest that salvation is "totally God"... and man has nothing to do with things.

On the other hands, passages such as Philippians 2:12, Acts 2:40, and 1 Peter 1:22 seem to suggest that people are saved by something they do... that God has nothing to do with it.

Since Scripture agrees with each other, there's only one explanation that is reasonable... and I believe it's stated in Ephesians 2:8 - "For by grace you have been saved through faith".  Looking at that verse alone, if we remove either "grace" or "faith", salvation cannot be obtained. 

The next two verses clearly "head off" some beliefs that could be inferred from this sentence.  First, even though man must have "faith" in order to acceptably be in a right relationship with Him (Hebrews 11:6), there's no way a human being can boast and say "look what I've done."  The fact God calls us to respond to the gospel with "faith" shouldn't cause us to overlook the facts that (1) God acted first and (2) had God not acted, man couldn't save himself.  It's like a man who's been given a million dollars and is told he must sign a paper to receive it... there's no way he can say "I earned that gift".  At the end of the day, what "works" we may do are like "polluted garments" (Isaiah 64:6) in the eyes of God.

Second, though our "works" are useless apart from God's grace, "works" are God's will for our lives.  In verse 10, God says "we are His workmanship (designed beings), created IN Christ Jesus for good works".  Going on, God stated that it's God's plan for our lives.  

Part of those "works" include making sure our lives are in harmony with God... that's why 2 Corinthians 13:5 told the children of God "examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith" and Philippians 2:12 says "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling".  The man receiving the million dollars had to comply with the donor's wishes if he wished to have the gift... if he were unwilling to sign the paper, the gift would go unclaimed.

Hobbs... you asked earlier about a person who had lost his or her salvation.  At an earlier time in my life, I did ... due to the fact I stopped "walking in the light as God is in the light".  For a period of my time, I neither acknowledged my actions as sin (1 John 1:8-10) nor exhibited contrition about the things I was doing that were sinful (Revelation 3:19).  As a result, I was lost... a child of God yes, but one who had lost his inheritance (Galatians 5:4 would call it "severed from Christ" and "fallen away from grace").

Today, I'm in a right relationship with God because I try to live a life HE wants me to live.  I make mistakes and sin... and when I do, Christ's blood continually covers my sins as long as I TRY to live the way God wants me to live.  I can't be saved apart from Christ's blood (grace)... without that gift, I have no hope.  I simultaneously can't be saved w/o trying to obey God's will... having a heart that is willing to submit to God and HIS purpose for my life.  I like to have a goal somewhat expressed by Paul in Galatians 2:20... "I've been crucified with Christ, nevertheless it's not I, but Christ who lives in me. And the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."

A key verse in Scripture is found in Acts 2:36... "God made Jesus both Lord and Christ".  The word "Lord" means "Master"... the word "Christ" (anointed One) alludes to salvation.  Today, many desire the blood of Jesus in their lives, but they are unwilling to make Jesus "master" of their life.  Unfortunately, we cannot piece and parcel those two concepts... they're a "package deal".


----------



## M80

Quotes from bama


there's no way a human being can boast and say "look what I've done.

Today, I'm in a right relationship with God because I try to live a life HE wants me to live. 

Sir you are contradicting yourselves. It is gods gift, he is not an Indian giver. There is no little or big sin. There is no practicing sin. We all sin. If we say we have no sin we are a lier and the truth is not in us


----------



## Ronnie T

04ctd said:


> saw this, and thought I would post it to this thread...it says we cannot lose our salvation:
> 
> http://www.intouch.org/magazine/daily-devotion
> 
> _A church deacon once confessed a horrible sin in a social media site. After giving a description of what he’d done, the man commented, “I know there’s a price to pay for this sin now. And that price is death.”
> 
> Not only was his heart broken over what he had done; he also knew that the effect on his friends and family would be devastating. And yet, overshadowing his remorse was fear. He had become afraid of God, believing that the sovereign Lord of the universe was now “out to get him.”
> 
> What would you say to this believer? Does his statement reflect an appropriate view of God’s response to sin?
> 
> It’s true that Romans 6:23 clearly teaches that “the wages of sin is death”; however, this sorrowful young man had overlooked the all-important second half of the verse: “but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” If our Father gives us a gift, we can trust that He will never take it away; it becomes ours to keep—that’s what a gift is. We did nothing to deserve it, so we can do nothing to lose it. It all rests on God’s initiative.
> 
> Moreover, a greater theological principle is at work here. If the believer’s sin after salvation could require death—or any form of punishment—then Jesus’ sacrifice was insufficient. However, the Bible tells us that Jesus’ death was wholly sufficient and a once-for-all payment of mankind’s sin debt (Heb. 10:10).
> 
> Either Jesus’ blood does cover our sins, or it doesn’t. There’s no middle ground. The Holy Spirit, Christ’s words, and biblical testimony clearly assert that it does._



The highlighted comment sounds very logical, but in fact, is not true as stated.
.


----------



## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> Quotes from bama
> 
> 
> there's no way a human being can boast and say "look what I've done.
> 
> Today, I'm in a right relationship with God because I try to live a life HE wants me to live.
> 
> Sir you are contradicting yourselves. It is gods gift, he is not an Indian giver. There is no little or big sin. There is no practicing sin. We all sin. If we say we have no sin we are a lier and the truth is not in us



Bama might seem to contradict himself, but he does not condradict God's teachings found in the scripture that you quoted from.

You said:  "There is no practicing sin. We all sin. If we say we have no sin we are a liar and the truth is not in us"............. but in truth the verse teachings that you quoted says "If you walk in the light, as Christ is in the light, His blood will continually cleanse your sins".
The Bible speaks at great length about the necessity of our not "Practicing" specific sins.  
In those same writings, John also said:  "if" you confess your sins, Jesus will forgive your sins.

Jesus is not an Indian giver.  But He demands that you and I be thankful recipients of His grace.

Relationship.


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> Quotes from bama
> 
> 
> there's no way a human being can boast and say "look what I've done.
> 
> Today, I'm in a right relationship with God because I try to live a life HE wants me to live.
> 
> Sir you are contradicting yourselves. It is gods gift, he is not an Indian giver. There is no little or big sin. There is no practicing sin. We all sin. If we say we have no sin we are a lier and the truth is not in us



Did I say I'm perfect in regards to sin?  Did I imply that earlier in my life, I lived a life of sin, but now no longer sin?  1 John 1:7-10 tells me that even though I'm a Christian, I still sin. But, there is a great difference in a person who sins while manifesting an attitude of "I don't care what God says" and one who sins while trying to do better - one who is willing to acknowledge/repent of that sin.  It's the point that's being made in 1 John 3:4-10... it's the point that is made in Romans 6:4 (in response to the question of verse 1).

Maybe you think I'm boasting when I say that I'm trying to live faithfully to God?  If so, then Paul boasted in 2 Timothy 4:7-8/Philippians 1:23 when he claimed he was assured of his eternal reward when he died.  No... we're not apostles, but doesn't 1 John 5:14 apply to us?  Can't we KNOW we have eternal security?  Claiming that we (can) know doesn't mean we are failing to rely on God's grace.

Regarding your statement about "Indian giving", the NT is full of conditional statements about salvation.  In Galatians 5:1-6, He told them that IF they accepted circumcision (a requirement of the law of Moses), they would be "severed from Christ" and "fallen away from grace".  How do you not see the conditional "IF" in this passage?  It's the same conditional term found in 1 John 1:9 - "IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins".  

The fact brethren could lose their salvation, however, was not because of God's actions... it is due to their own action and choices in life.  Thus, I'm not sure it's really accurate to call God "an Indian giver" when He left the choice up to the individual.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Bama4me said:


> Thanks for the passionate discussion in the thread... gives me a deeper understanding of some things.
> 
> When you look at the NT teaching of salvation, there are 2 sides... (1) what God has offered to mankind and (2) what mankind must do to accept/keep God's offer (if anything).
> 
> Several passages such as Romans 6:23, Ephesians 2:4-6, and Philippians 1:28 all seem to suggest that salvation is "totally God"... and man has nothing to do with things.
> 
> On the other hands, passages such as Philippians 2:12, Acts 2:40, and 1 Peter 1:22 seem to suggest that people are saved by something they do... that God has nothing to do with it.
> 
> Since Scripture agrees with each other, there's only one explanation that is reasonable... and I believe it's stated in Ephesians 2:8 - "For by grace you have been saved through faith".  Looking at that verse alone, if we remove either "grace" or "faith", salvation cannot be obtained.
> 
> The next two verses clearly "head off" some beliefs that could be inferred from this sentence.  First, even though man must have "faith" in order to acceptably be in a right relationship with Him (Hebrews 11:6), there's no way a human being can boast and say "look what I've done."  The fact God calls us to respond to the gospel with "faith" shouldn't cause us to overlook the facts that (1) God acted first and (2) had God not acted, man couldn't save himself.  It's like a man who's been given a million dollars and is told he must sign a paper to receive it... there's no way he can say "I earned that gift".  At the end of the day, what "works" we may do are like "polluted garments" (Isaiah 64:6) in the eyes of God.
> 
> Second, though our "works" are useless apart from God's grace, "works" are God's will for our lives.  In verse 10, God says "we are His workmanship (designed beings), created IN Christ Jesus for good works".  Going on, God stated that it's God's plan for our lives.
> 
> Part of those "works" include making sure our lives are in harmony with God... that's why 2 Corinthians 13:5 told the children of God "examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith" and Philippians 2:12 says "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling".  The man receiving the million dollars had to comply with the donor's wishes if he wished to have the gift... if he were unwilling to sign the paper, the gift would go unclaimed.
> 
> Hobbs... you asked earlier about a person who had lost his or her salvation.  At an earlier time in my life, I did ... due to the fact I stopped "walking in the light as God is in the light".  For a period of my time, I neither acknowledged my actions as sin (1 John 1:8-10) nor exhibited contrition about the things I was doing that were sinful (Revelation 3:19).  As a result, I was lost... a child of God yes, but one who had lost his inheritance (Galatians 5:4 would call it "severed from Christ" and "fallen away from grace").
> 
> Today, I'm in a right relationship with God because I try to live a life HE wants me to live.  I make mistakes and sin... and when I do, Christ's blood continually covers my sins as long as I TRY to live the way God wants me to live.  I can't be saved apart from Christ's blood (grace)... without that gift, I have no hope.  I simultaneously can't be saved w/o trying to obey God's will... having a heart that is willing to submit to God and HIS purpose for my life.  I like to have a goal somewhat expressed by Paul in Galatians 2:20... "I've been crucified with Christ, nevertheless it's not I, but Christ who lives in me. And the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."
> 
> A key verse in Scripture is found in Acts 2:36... "God made Jesus both Lord and Christ".  The word "Lord" means "Master"... the word "Christ" (anointed One) alludes to salvation.  Today, many desire the blood of Jesus in their lives, but they are unwilling to make Jesus "master" of their life.  Unfortunately, we cannot piece and parcel those two concepts... they're a "package deal".



I would not say you are boasting. Thanks for those verses and your story. I'm reminded of the parable of the prodigal son in relation to God and his gifts. God waited for your return just as the father in the parable waited for his "lost" son to return.


----------



## hobbs27

Bama4me said:


> The fact brethren could lose their salvation,



The only fact is you believe that the brethren can lose salvation. This topic has been beat around and dissected so many times that no one person can proclaim fact.

 Another fact is that you and I believe differently on this subject and I'm sure we have both studied the same word of God extensively to come to separate conclusions.

 I have come to realize that our argument isn't so much about maintaining salvation, but what exactly is salvation. We see it differently.


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> I would not say you are boasting. Thanks for those verses and your story. I'm reminded of the parable of the prodigal son in relation to God and his gifts. God waited for your return just as the father in the parable waited for his "lost" son to return.



The prodigal son was away true, but he was still the fathers son. There is no separating that. There is nothing that will seperate us from the love of God. The bible says we are sealed till the day of redemption. Remember, our soul is born of god. That makes us sons of god. We will always be sons of god. If we could live in a good way to keep our salvation it would take away the grace of god and be considered "Well, because I was good(works) The Lord let me keep my salvation". Ephesions says Not of works lest any should boast". The bible says there is none good, no not one. The only good thing in me is that the blood has been applied to my heart. I'm just a sinner saved by grace. Amen

Also remember, we are bought with a price. Jesus owns us. Salvation is not ours to keep. It is his to keep


----------



## M80

Bama4me said:


> Did I say I'm perfect in regards to sin?  Did I imply that earlier in my life, I lived a life of sin, but now no longer sin?  1 John 1:7-10 tells me that even though I'm a Christian, I still sin. But, there is a great difference in a person who sins while manifesting an attitude of "I don't care what God says" and one who sins while trying to do better - one who is willing to acknowledge/repent of that sin.  It's the point that's being made in 1 John 3:4-10... it's the point that is made in Romans 6:4 (in response to the question of verse 1).
> 
> Maybe you think I'm boasting when I say that I'm trying to live faithfully to God?  If so, then Paul boasted in 2 Timothy 4:7-8/Philippians 1:23 when he claimed he was assured of his eternal reward when he died.  No... we're not apostles, but doesn't 1 John 5:14 apply to us?  Can't we KNOW we have eternal security?  Claiming that we (can) know doesn't mean we are failing to rely on God's grace.
> 
> Regarding your statement about "Indian giving", the NT is full of conditional statements about salvation.  In Galatians 5:1-6, He told them that IF they accepted circumcision (a requirement of the law of Moses), they would be "severed from Christ" and "fallen away from grace".  How do you not see the conditional "IF" in this passage?  It's the same conditional term found in 1 John 1:9 - "IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins".
> 
> The fact brethren could lose their salvation, however, was not because of God's actions... it is due to their own action and choices in life.  Thus, I'm not sure it's really accurate to call God "an Indian giver" when He left the choice up to the individual.



No sir I don't think your bragging. Your just glad to be in the will of God. There is nothing like it. I was saved at 12. High school I got out of the will of god. When I was 19 I got back in his will. It's a bad life to know what your suppose to be doing and not doing it. There is great satisfaction in serving The Lord


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> The prodigal son was away true, but he was still the fathers son. There is no separating that. There is nothing that will seperate us from the love of God. The bible says we are sealed till the day of redemption. Remember, our soul is born of god. That makes us sons of god. We will always be sons of god. If we could live in a good way to keep our salvation it would take away the grace of god and be considered "Well, because I was good(works) The Lord let me keep my salvation". Ephesions says Not of works lest any should boast". The bible says there is none good, no not one. The only good thing in me is that the blood has been applied to my heart. I'm just a sinner saved by grace. Amen
> 
> Also remember, we are bought with a price. Jesus owns us. Salvation is not ours to keep. It is his to keep



Then you're disagreeing with Ephesians 2:8?


----------



## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> The only fact is you believe that the brethren can lose salvation. This topic has been beat around and dissected so many times that no one person can proclaim fact.
> 
> Another fact is that you and I believe differently on this subject and I'm sure we have both studied the same word of God extensively to come to separate conclusions.
> 
> I have come to realize that our argument isn't so much about maintaining salvation, but what exactly is salvation. We see it differently.



We'll just have to agree to disagree... both on the positions that we take and on the statement "no one person can proclaim fact".


----------



## Artfuldodger

I was looking at verses from the Sermon on the Mount and it appears to be about obedience instead of faith & grace:

Matt 3:10  "And the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. (faith or fruit?)

Matt 10:28
28	"And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in he!!.
Special instructions given to the 12 disciples.  Why would Jesus tell the 12 to "fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in he!!  if OSAS is true?

Matt 12:36-37
36	"And I say to you, that every careless word that men shall speak, they shall render account for it in the day of judgment.
37	"For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned."  (condemned?)


Matt 5:13 "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how will it be made salty {again}  It is good for nothing anymore, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.
(grace doesn't keep us from being thrown out)

Matt 5:22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever shall say to his brother, 'Raca,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty {enough to go} into the fiery he!!. (no mention of faith)

Matt 5:29-30
29	"And if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into he!!.
30	"And if your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into he!1.
(why would Jesus say this if salvation was by grace & faith?

Matt 6:14-15
14	"For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15	"But if you do not forgive men, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
(no mention of faith & grace)


----------



## Artfuldodger

I don't like to use the word "alone" when talking about keeping or losing salvation. Grace alone, faith alone, or obedience alone.


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> I was looking at verses from the Sermon on the Mount and it appears to be about obedience instead of faith & grace:
> 
> Matt 3:10  "And the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. (faith or fruit?)
> 
> Matt 10:28
> 28	"And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in he!!.
> Special instructions given to the 12 disciples.  Why would Jesus tell the 12 to "fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in he!!  if OSAS is true?
> 
> Matt 12:36-37
> 36	"And I say to you, that every careless word that men shall speak, they shall render account for it in the day of judgment.
> 37	"For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned."  (condemned?)
> 
> 
> Matt 5:13 "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how will it be made salty {again}  It is good for nothing anymore, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.
> (grace doesn't keep us from being thrown out)
> 
> Matt 5:22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever shall say to his brother, 'Raca,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty {enough to go} into the fiery he!!. (no mention of faith)
> 
> Matt 5:29-30
> 29	"And if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into he!!.
> 30	"And if your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into he!1.
> (why would Jesus say this if salvation was by grace & faith?
> 
> Matt 6:14-15
> 14	"For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
> 15	"But if you do not forgive men, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
> (no mention of faith & grace)



The sermon on the mount was before Jesus died on the cross, thus there was no salvation yet


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> The sermon on the mount was before Jesus died on the cross, thus there was no salvation yet



So does this mean the teachings of Jesus prior to the cross have no authority in our lives today?


----------



## M80

Yes they do but we are under the new covenant according to Hebrews and I don't understand why you believe I don't believe Ephesians 2:8. Can you elaborate on that


----------



## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> The sermon on the mount was before Jesus died on the cross, thus there was no salvation yet



Sometimes, I get the feeling that you and barryl believe that only about seven verses in the NT pertain to Christians.


----------



## M80

centerpin fan said:


> Sometimes, I get the feeling that you and barryl believe that only about seven verses in the NT pertain to Christians.



I'm sorry that you feel that way. Do you not agree. Hebrews is very very clear about all this, very straight forward


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> Yes they do but we are under the new covenant according to Hebrews and I don't understand why you believe I don't believe Ephesians 2:8. Can you elaborate on that



Be happy to... Ephesians 2:8 states "For by grace you have been saved through faith".  As I mentioned in my initial post "grace" is where Christ's blood comes in... and "faith" is where man's response comes in.  If you say "salvation belongs to God and man has no effect on it", then you're saying "For by grace you have been saved APART from faith."  Scripture clearly affirms that without faith, we cannot please God (Hebrews 11:6).  "Faith" leads to a willingness to do what God asks of a person.  Notice the verbs in Hebrews 11 that result from "faith".

*  By faith, Noah constructed... (7)
*  By faith, Abraham obeyed... (8)
*  By faith, Abraham went... (9)
*  By faith, Abraham offered... (17)
*  By faith, Moses was hidden... (23)
*  By faith, Moses kept... (28)

In all these matters, God had commanded people to do (or not do in some cases) something.  THIS is what people believing in OSAS want me to believe about this list... all these characters were "saved" without complying with the command of God.  In other words, Noah's salvation would not have been affected had he chosen NOT to build an ark.  Abraham could have stayed in Ur/Haran and still been in a right relationship with God.  Abraham could have refused to offer Isaac as a sacrifice and his salvation wouldn't be threatened.

Romans 4:2ff clearly says Abraham was "justified when he demonstrated faith" - but that he couldn't "boast" in claiming he had "earned" his salvation. Yet, James 2:21 clearly states Abraham was "justified by works".  Like I stated in my initial post, the two statements seem to contradict one another UNLESS you understand that in salvation, there is something God provides (grace) and there is also something man must exhibit (faith).  Faith leads one to obey, and when he obeys, "faith is completed" (James 2:22-24).

This seems to be your hang up with my comments... you seem to believe that the action of man somehow gives him a reason to boast and say "I've earned my salvation".  You take away grace, and I have no salvation - God did for me what I could never do for myself.  My faith, which leads me to obey God's commands, is simply my response to what He's done for me (Titus 2:11ff).  Abraham, as righteous as he was, was saved by God's grace... but Scripture makes it abundantly clear that his obedience was a factor in his salvation as well.  It's not "grace alone" or "faith alone" according to Ephesians 2:8 - it's both.  Take either of them away and a person cannot be saved!

BTW, it's not "is a person no longer a child of God," it's "can a child lose his/her inheritance"?  I have a son - he will always be my son... but he can behave in such a way that he'll lose his inheritance.


----------



## hobbs27

Bama4me said:


> BTW, it's not "is a person no longer a child of God," it's "can a child lose his/her inheritance"?  I have a son - he will always be my son... but he can behave in such a way that he'll lose his inheritance.



So you have set aside things that your son will have ownership of upon your death...only if he behaves within a manner of your guidelines (law)?

Interesting...yet you make a very poor comparison to grace..which is a love that comes to us undeserving! We are not worthy of salvation when God gives it to us....therefore we cannot become even more undeserving of it by our actions which God foresaw! 

 Im glad salvation is of God which can see our hearts, and not by man that judge us by actions they see. Im afraid none of us could make it if we relied on one another.


----------



## M80

Bama4me said:


> Be happy to... Ephesians 2:8 states "For by grace you have been saved by through faith".  As I mentioned in my initial post "grace" is where Christ's blood comes in... and "faith" is where man's response comes in.  If you say "salvation belongs to God and man has no effect on it", then you're saying "For by grace you have been saved APART from faith."  Scripture clearly affirms that without faith, we cannot please God (Hebrews 11:6).  "Faith" leads to a willingness to do what God asks of a person.  Notice the verbs in Hebrews 11 that result from "faith".
> 
> 
> 
> *  By faith, Noah constructed... (7)
> *  By faith, Abraham obeyed... (8)
> *  By faith, Abraham went... (9)
> *  By faith, Abraham offered... (17)
> *  By faith, Moses was hidden... (23)
> *  By faith, Moses kept... (28)
> 
> In all these matters, God had commanded people to do (or not do in some cases) something.  THIS is what people believing in OSAS want me to believe about this list... all these characters were "saved" without complying with the command of God.  In other words, Noah's salvation would not have been affected had he chosen NOT to build an ark.  Abraham could have stayed in Ur/Haran and still been in a right relationship with God.  Abraham could have refused to offer Isaac as a sacrifice and his salvation wouldn't be threatened.
> 
> Romans 4:2ff clearly says Abraham was "justified when he demonstrated faith" - but that he couldn't "boast" in claiming he had "earned" his salvation. Yet, James 2:21 clearly states Abraham was "justified by works".  Like I stated in my initial post, the two statements seem to contradict one another UNLESS you understand that in salvation, there is something God provides (grace) and there is also something man must exhibit (faith).  Faith leads one to obey, and when he obeys, "faith is completed" (James 2:22-24).
> 
> This seems to be your hang up with my comments... you seem to believe that the action of man somehow gives him a reason to boast and say "I've earned my salvation".  You take away grace, and I have no salvation - God did for me what I could never do for myself.  My faith, which leads me to obey God's commands, is simply my response to what He's done for me (Titus 2:11ff).  Abraham, as righteous as he was, was saved by God's grace... but Scripture makes it abundantly clear that his obedience was a factor in his salvation as well.  It's not "grace alone" or "faith alone" according to Ephesians 2:8 - it's both.  Take either of them away and a person cannot be saved!
> 
> BTW, it's not "is a person no longer a child of God," it's "can a child lose his/her inheritance"?  I have a son - he will always be my son... but he can behave in such a way that he'll lose his inheritance.



All these that you have mentioned, none was saved. There was no salvation until Jesus was raised from the dead. Old Testament saints where under the law. They're lived by faith looking towards the messiah. There works and sacrifices led them to Abraham's bosom. 

We are not saved by works, salvation brings works out of us. I agree with you about faith. We must have faith in Jesus to save us and its by his grace. 

I have already stated that in 1st John it says we are born of god and we can not sin. Our soul cannot sin. Our flesh can. Paul states that its a constant battle in Romans 7. I know centerpin I've already talked about all this but Bama hasn't heard it.


----------



## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> I'm sorry that you feel that way. Do you not agree.



I do not agree with OSAS.  

I posted this earlier:



centerpin fan said:


> One example I've used in other OSAS threads was one of the ministers in my church.   He renounced his faith and joined the Nation of Islam.



Is this man still a Christian?


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## centerpin fan

Full disclosure:  I read the entire NT before I ever set foot inside a church.  Once I joined a Baptist church, I had to be _taught_ OSAS (because I sure didn't see it reading on my own.)

Consequently, I now have the best of both worlds.  According to OSAS, I am eternally secure even though I have completely renounced the concept.


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> BTW, it's not "is a person no longer a child of God," it's "can a child lose his/her inheritance"?  I have a son - he will always be my son... but he can behave in such a way that he'll lose his inheritance.



Thankfully, God's love is not as fickle as yours.


----------



## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> So you have set aside things that your son will have ownership of upon your death...only if he behaves within a manner of your guidelines (law)?
> 
> Interesting...yet you make a very poor comparison to grace..which is a love that comes to us undeserving! We are not worthy of salvation when God gives it to us....therefore we cannot become even more undeserving of it by our actions which God foresaw!
> 
> Im glad salvation is of God which can see our hearts, and not by man that judge us by actions they see. Im afraid none of us could make it if we relied on one another.



God sees our hearts.  And God said, "If you love me(heart), you'll want to obey Me."

Man's judgment of you and I is worthless, but not unimportant.
.


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## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> Is this man still a Christian?


What leads you to believe that he ever was?


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> What leads you to believe that he ever was?



This is all you guys ever come up with, that he was never a Christian to begin with.  Even when I believed in OSAS, I didn't buy that.

To answer your question, though, my eyes and my ears led me to believe he was a Christian.


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## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> This is all you guys ever come up with, that he was never a Christian to begin with.  Even when I believed in OSAS, I didn't buy that.


Surely you would agree that professing to be a Christian does not make one a Christian.



centerpin fan said:


> To answer your question, though, my eyes and my ears led me to believe he was a Christian.


And we can always trust our eyes and ears in such a matter as this.


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> Surely you would agree that professing to be a Christian does not make one a Christian.



Absolutely.  Neither does saying a quick prayer or raising your hand or walking an aisle make you eternally secure.




gemcgrew said:


> And we can always trust our eyes and ears in such a matter as this.



Along with a mind, that's what God gave me.  He expects me to use them.


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> Absolutely.  Neither does saying a quick prayer or raising your hand or walking an aisle make you eternally secure.


Agreed. 



centerpin fan said:


> Along with a mind, that's what God gave me.  He expects me to use them.


Yes and he warns us time and time again of wolves in sheep's clothing. Is this not even an option for you?


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> What leads you to believe that he ever was?



And maybe you and I aren't actually Christians, just like the other man in question?

By the way, how's the eye's?


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> And maybe you and I aren't actually Christians, just like the other man in question?


Did we renounce Christ and join the Nation of Islam? 



Ronnie T said:


> By the way, how's the eye's?


Had surgery yesterday on my left eye. 20/20 on the left and 20/25 on the right. Cataract free! I am living in a world that I have no memory of. Truly amazing!

Thanks for asking.


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## Artfuldodger

Matt 10:32-33
32	"Everyone therefore who shall confess Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.
33	"But whoever shall deny Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
(does this pertain to Christians?) (It must as I can't see non-Christians doing much confessing.)
(I'd hate to have Jesus confessing to his Father that "he never knew me.") (would that mean I was never a Christian?)

Matt 24:10-13
10	At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
11	and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
12	Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
13	but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
(turn away?) (stand firm?)

Luke 10:25-28
25	And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
26	And He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?"
27	And he answered and said, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself."
28	And He said to him, "You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live."
(does this pertain to modern day Christians?)

These are things Jesus was teaching the diciples. Their purpose was to teach after he was gone from the Earth.
These verses aren't to be used as a guide, they are requirements.
The Bible doesn't say forgive your neighbor if you have a mind to.
The Bible doesn't say help the poor if you feel like it.


----------



## Israel

I knew a brother once...a man of God.
His wife was a woman born of God...but man, how she had troubles with the revelations the Lord would dump on this brother. 
(have you ever been led?...I mean really...to places you don't want to go?) Have you ever acted like a stubborn mule?

One time, during an especially tough exchange this sister railed against this brother to such an extent that he was moved to ask her "would you like me to stop praying for you?"

For him, it was a terrible question to be brought to ask. Thankfully, for her, she knew it. And the exchange stopped.

(Note well...this brother's question did not say he would do anything at all regarding her response. The question was not."If you want me to stop praying for you, I will stop. Nor was it, "Even if you tell me to stop I won't and then see what happens")

No...all this sister needed at that particular moment was that question from her head...perfectly framed.

If we don't think we too can become presumptuous, we too can even speak of things...which may be life to us...but cause others to be presumptuous because of their lack of understanding, we may need to think again.
We preach Christ, and him crucified. Not OSAS...not eternal doubtfulness, or threats...not anything...but Christ.

It's funny that worldlings remain wiser in their dealings than the children of light in this generation.

When Neo said to Morpheus "The Oracle told me I am not the One"...
Morpheus response was born of the wisdom of the truth "You heard exactly what you needed to hear at the time"

Doubt will make us hear certain things...until we mine down to that place where no doubt exists...then...when the question is changed...so we may find...is the response.

Morpheus said this "You will learn, knowing the path and walking the path are two different things"


Jesus said, "If you KNOW these things...HAPPY are you IF you do them"

Makes one like me ask..."what will I be if I KNOW them...but DON'T walk in them?" But, then, some questions really don't need to be asked.


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> Yes and he warns us time and time again of wolves in sheep's clothing. Is this not even an option for you?



Of course it's an option.  Is it not an option that someone teaching OSAS is a wolf?  Here's something I quoted earlier (post 224):


“Certain ones of those [heretics] who hold different opinions misuse these passages. They essentially destroy free will be introducing ruined natures incapable of salvation and by introducing others as being saved in such a way that they cannot be lost.” ~ Origen (c. 225)


Good to hear about your eyes.


----------



## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> So you have set aside things that your son will have ownership of upon your death...only if he behaves within a manner of your guidelines (law)?
> 
> Interesting...yet you make a very poor comparison to grace..which is a love that comes to us undeserving! We are not worthy of salvation when God gives it to us....therefore we cannot become even more undeserving of it by our actions which God foresaw!
> 
> Im glad salvation is of God which can see our hearts, and not by man that judge us by actions they see. Im afraid none of us could make it if we relied on one another.



According to your theology, man doesn't have to do anything in order to be right with God... and that's not correct according to the NT.  If consistent with your position, you have to assert that there's nothing that is wrong for a Christian to do... that indeed a person can live any way he/she wants and still please God.  Yet, verses like Acts 2:40, Philippians 2:12, and James 2:22 imply a person must DO something.  I've explained it twice now, but you're not reading.  Just because I do something to receive my salvation, I don't merit salvation.  Go back and read again my illustration of a man giving a million dollars to someone... but requiring him to sign a paper to receive it.  Did the one receiving the gift "earn" it?  No... he just complied with the terms of the gift.  Again, how do you reconcile Ephesians 2:8 with your position?


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> Thankfully, God's love is not as fickle as yours.



It was God who inspired James to write James 5:19-20... that the one who "wandered from the truth" could be brought back again, thus being spared from dead and having his sins forgiven.  It was God who inspired Paul to write to Christians and warn them that they would "fall from grace" and be "severed from Christ" if they held to the doctrine of circumcision.  

BTW, I'm happy in my posts to let God's word speak on the matter... not make snippy comments which are intended to insult one's person.


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> All these that you have mentioned, none was saved. There was no salvation until Jesus was raised from the dead. Old Testament saints where under the law. They're lived by faith looking towards the messiah. There works and sacrifices led them to Abraham's bosom.
> 
> We are not saved by works, salvation brings works out of us. I agree with you about faith. We must have faith in Jesus to save us and its by his grace.
> 
> I have already stated that in 1st John it says we are born of god and we can not sin. Our soul cannot sin. Our flesh can. Paul states that its a constant battle in Romans 7. I know centerpin I've already talked about all this but Bama hasn't heard it.



First, despite your arguments regarding faith and works from the OT characters, the NT clearly shows that in the NT age (age of our salvation) faith AND works are both necessary.  Though the faith of these characters led to action, you cannot separate their type of "faith" and our faith today - Galatians 3:7 says we are "sons of Abraham" because of "faith".

Second, I'm glad you agree with me about faith... because James 2:22 says our works "complete" our faith.  "Faith", however, is not something given to us by God... it's our response to Him.  Romans 10:17 says faith comes from hearing the word of God.  I suspect your alluding to one of the companions of OSAS... irresistible grace.

Third, you do know that 1 John 3:9 literally means "he cannot keep on sinning"?  In other words, it doesn't mean it's impossible to sin... a lifestyle of sin is implied.

BTW, would you please let me and everyone else who may read this thread know exactly which teachings of Jesus DO apply to us today?  Since everything He taught was (in your terminology) "before salvation", that means we are not bound to follow anything He said... correct?


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> BTW, I'm happy in my posts to let God's word speak on the matter


Are you? Is that what you did here? "Ephesians 2:8 states "For by grace you have been saved by through faith".

I am not aware of any translation that accommodates your rendering. Did you not purposefully add "by" and leave out "and that not of yourselves", in order to make room for yourself?


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> Of course it's an option.  Is it not an option that someone teaching OSAS is a wolf?


I would contend that is the norm, rather than the exception.



centerpin fan said:


> Here's something I quoted earlier (post 224):
> 
> “Certain ones of those [heretics] who hold different opinions misuse these passages. They essentially destroy free will be introducing ruined natures incapable of salvation and by introducing others as being saved in such a way that they cannot be lost.” ~ Origen (c. 225)


I find "OSAS" to be problematic for those who believe in "free will".



centerpin fan said:


> Good to hear about your eyes.


Thanks man!


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> I find "OSAS" to be problematic for those who believe in "free will".
> QUOTE]
> 
> I've wondered about that one myself.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I've often believed my faith was something that came from me. As part of my free will, I could have faith or not. There are verses that say faith is a gift from God or faith comes from God. 
Maybe it's like having the Holy Spirit as a guide. It's still up to me to use the gift of faith to follow Jesus. 
How do others view faith as a gift and believe in free will?
Gemcgrew, you might as well give us your belief on this too.
If OSAS is true, at what point can I just lay back and enjoy this new freedom. Freedom without a price from me. I'm not feeling very obedient to God today. I'm using my free will to be less obedient today but i'll get back on it tomorrow.


----------



## M80

Bama4me said:


> First, despite your arguments regarding faith and works from the OT characters, the NT clearly shows that in the NT age (age of our salvation) faith AND works are both necessary.  Though the faith of these characters led to action, you cannot separate their type of "faith" and our faith today - Galatians 3:7 says we are "sons of Abraham" because of "faith".
> 
> Second, I'm glad you agree with me about faith... because James 2:22 says our works "complete" our faith.  "Faith", however, is not something given to us by God... it's our response to Him.  Romans 10:17 says faith comes from hearing the word of God.  I suspect your alluding to one of the companions of OSAS... irresistible grace.
> 
> Third, you do know that 1 John 3:9 literally means "he cannot keep on sinning"?  In other words, it doesn't mean it's impossible to sin... a lifestyle of sin is implied.
> 
> BTW, would you please let me and everyone else who may read this thread know exactly which teachings of Jesus DO apply to us today?  Since everything He taught was (in your terminology) "before salvation", that means we are not bound to follow anything He said... correct?



The bible says all scripture is for reproof, for doctrine. It also says to rightly divide the word of god. I believe it all and it's all for our instruction. Saying that let me also say that we can't take certain scripture and run with it. I've have given countless differant scriptures for OSAS doctrine in this thread. 

1st John 3:9 means exactly what it says. Our inner man is what is saved. It cannot sin. It is born of god. Jesus told Nicodemus marvel not what I say unto you, Ye must be born again. When we are saved it is not our flesh getting saved. It's our soul. It knows not how to sin. Our flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of god. That's why it is planted in the ground awaiting Jesus coming back according to 1st Thessalonians 4. That is when we will be changed in the moment of a twinkling of an eye according 1st Corinthians I believe chapter 15 and have a glorified body liken unto him.


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> Are you? Is that what you did here? "Ephesians 2:8 states "For by grace you have been saved by through faith".
> 
> I am not aware of any translation that accommodates your rendering. Did you not purposefully add "by" and leave out "and that not of yourselves", in order to make room for yourself?



Gem... went back and fixed it.  Question... why do you resort to quibbles when discussing this issue?  Slighting my love for my children and then saying I added "by" to the phrase is quibbling... it's not actually addressing the issue.

If you look at my first post on the subject, you'll notice I addressed the second part of Ephesians 2:8.  Granted, I didn't explain it the way you explain it, but I addressed it.  Also, and I didn't include this, but it also could touch upon the fact that the entire process of salvation originated w/ God... not man.  Humanity, being sinful, could never have come up with a "scheme of redemption"... only God could.  At the end of the day, however, you still have to explain what "through faith" means in this passage.


----------



## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> I've often believed my faith was something that came from me. As part of my free will, I could have faith or not. There are verses that say faith is a gift from God or faith comes from God.
> Maybe it's like having the Holy Spirit as a guide. It's still up to me to use the gift of faith to follow Jesus.
> How do others view faith as a gift and believe in free will?
> Gemcgrew, you might as well give us your belief on this too.
> If OSAS is true, at what point can I just lay back and enjoy this new freedom. Freedom without a price from me. I'm not feeling very obedient to God today. I'm using my free will to be less obedient today but i'll get back on it tomorrow.



Hammer meet nail on the phrase "at what point can I just lay back and enjoy this new freedom?"


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> The bible says all scripture is for reproof, for doctrine. It also says to rightly divide the word of god. I believe it all and it's all for our instruction. Saying that let me also say that we can't take certain scripture and run with it. I've have given countless differant scriptures for OSAS doctrine in this thread.
> 
> 1st John 3:9 means exactly what it says. Our inner man is what is saved. It cannot sin. It is born of god. Jesus told Nicodemus marvel not what I say unto you, Ye must be born again. When we are saved it is not our flesh getting saved. It's our soul. It knows not how to sin. Our flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of god. That's why it is planted in the ground awaiting Jesus coming back according to 1st Thessalonians 4. That is when we will be changed in the moment of a twinkling of an eye according 1st Corinthians I believe chapter 15 and have a glorified body liken unto him.



An honest question... how can YOU refer to a teaching of Jesus from John 3:3 as "reasoning for your argument" yet claim Jesus' teachings from the book of Matthew have NO validity because "there was no salvation yet"?  For those reading these posts, go back earlier/read the exchanges between MWilliams and Artfuldodger.

Again, what teachings of Jesus can we take and which ones should we leave behind?  I'd like to see the list if you believe some are to be excluded (which you stated in so many words earlier in the thread).

Pertaining to the idea that our souls cannot sin, I'd like you to explain why Ezekiel 18:20 says "the soul who sins shall die".  Also, why does James 5:19-20 say the following... "My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins."

Somehow, I'm supposed to read these verses and come up with the conclusion "a soul can't sin".  Again, 1 John 3:9-10 is not talking about an impossibility of sinning... it's referring to one who makes a practice of sinning.  There's a vast difference between the two ideas.


----------



## M80

Bama4me said:


> An honest question... how can YOU refer to a teaching of Jesus from John 3:3 as "reasoning for your argument" yet claim Jesus' teachings from the book of Matthew have NO validity because "there was no salvation yet"?  For those reading these posts, go back earlier/read the exchanges between MWilliams and Artfuldodger.
> 
> Again, what teachings of Jesus can we take and which ones should we leave behind?  I'd like to see the list if you believe some are to be excluded (which you stated in so many words earlier in the thread).
> 
> Pertaining to the idea that our souls cannot sin, I'd like you to explain why Ezekiel 18:20 says "the soul who sins shall die".  Also, why does James 5:19-20 say the following... "My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins."
> 
> Somehow, I'm supposed to read these verses and come up with the conclusion "a soul can't sin".  Again, 1 John 3:9-10 is not talking about an impossibility of sinning... it's referring to one who makes a practice of sinning.  There's a vast difference between the two ideas.



So are you saying the flesh is saved. Jesus told Nicodemus we must be born again. If our soul is quickened(been made alive) it is born of god. 
John 3:16 "for god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Is Jesus lying there. If we have everlasting life how can we lose salvation and be cast in the lake of fire where the bible says this is the second death. If we could lose our salvation Jesus would be lying in John 3:16


----------



## M80

If we could lose our salvation where is the guideline in the bible that tells us its gone. Is sinning one time after salvation mean its gone. I'd lose mine everyday. Is it ten sins, 100 sins or is it a willful sin. Hebrews teaches us if we willingly sin there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin.  That means we will pay for that sin here on earth


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> Gem... went back and fixed it.  Question... why do you resort to quibbles when discussing this issue?  Slighting my love for my children and then saying I added "by" to the phrase is quibbling... it's not actually addressing the issue.


It was not my intent to slight your love any more than my own. I was just pointing out the weakness of the analogy, in comparing God's love to ours. You pointed out just how conditional our love is.



Bama4me said:


> Also, and I didn't include this, but it also could touch upon the fact that the entire process of salvation originated w/ God... not man.  Humanity, being sinful, could never have come up with a "scheme of redemption"... only God could.


God's plan of redemption is Christ. 



Bama4me said:


> At the end of the day, however, you still have to explain what "through faith" means in this passage.


We do not contribute anything to the work of Christ. Our faith in Christ is the fruit of redemption and not the cause.


----------



## Ronnie T

2 Peter 3      New American Standard Bible (NASB)
1 This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, 2 that you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles.
3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 
7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.


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## Ronnie T

1Thes 3:

1 Therefore when we could endure it no longer, we thought it best to be left behind at Athens alone, 2 and we sent Timothy, our brother and God’s fellow worker in the gospel of Christ, to strengthen and encourage you as to your faith, 3 so that no one would be disturbed by these afflictions; for you yourselves know that we have been destined for this. 4 For indeed when we were with you, we kept telling you in advance that we were going to suffer affliction; and so it came to pass, as you know. 5 For this reason, when I could endure it no longer, I also sent to find out about your faith, for fear that the tempter might have tempted you, and our labor would be in vain.

6 But now that Timothy has come to us from you, and has brought us good news of your faith and love, and that you always think kindly of us, longing to see us just as we also long to see you, 7 for this reason, brethren, in all our distress and affliction we were comforted about you through your faith; 8 for now we really live, if you stand firm in the Lord. 9 For what thanks can we render to God for you in return for all the joy with which we rejoice before our God on your account, 10 as we night and day keep praying most earnestly that we may see your face, and may complete what is lacking in your faith?

11 Now may our God and Father Himself and Jesus our Lord direct our way to you; 12 and may the Lord cause you to increase and abound in love for one another, and for all people, just as we also do for you; 13 so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.


----------



## Israel

There is will.
There is man's will. 
There is God's will.
You must learn which of these "wills" is free, and which is already encumbered, confined, circumscribed completely by the malevolent intent of  THE one bound by the revelation of the victory of Christ. You are not a man "running" toward a cliff...YOU are a man who has, by appearance in flesh, already submitted to every whim of this malignant foe.

The Lord does not "make" you do anything...all he does is level the playing field by removal of the blinders off that which is ALREADY his by ownership of creation...and then says..."ok, now choose."

Liberty to choose comes with the freedom afforded in the gospel's power that sets men free. Till then a slave imagines himself free.

"Will you leave also?" Jesus asked the 12.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

Israel said:


> There is will.
> There is man's will.
> There is God's will.
> You must learn which of these "wills" is free, and which is already encumbered, confined, circumscribed completely by the malevolent intent of  THE one bound by the revelation of the victory of Christ. You are not a man "running" toward a cliff...YOU are a man who has, by appearance in flesh, already submitted to every whim of this malignant foe.
> 
> The Lord does not "make" you do anything...all he does is level the playing field by removal of the blinders off that which is ALREADY his by ownership of creation...and then says..."ok, now choose."
> 
> Liberty to choose comes with the freedom afforded in the gospel's power that sets men free. Till then a slave imagines himself free.
> 
> "Will you leave also?" Jesus asked the 12.




You speak the truth, and there is power in the truth, and the truth will ____ ____ ______. 

Who can fill in the blanks?


----------



## M80

Make you free


----------



## Ronnie T

Faith.

"Take up the shield of faith with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one."


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> Faith.
> 
> "Take up the shield of faith with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one."



Where does this faith come from? God gives us a measure of faith:
Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. (KJV) or "a measure of faith." (NKJV)

Then it's up to us as Jesus criticizes people of little faith. He isn't critizing God:
Matthew 14:31 And immediately Jesus stretched out [His] hand and caught him, and said to him, "O you of little faith, why did you doubt?"

Luke 17:6 So the Lord said, "If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, `Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,' and it would obey you."

Mark 4:40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? How is it that ye have no faith? (KJV)


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> Where does this faith come from? God gives us a measure of faith:
> Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. (KJV) or "a measure of faith." (NKJV)
> 
> Then it's up to us as Jesus criticizes people of little faith. He isn't critizing God:
> Matthew 14:31 And immediately Jesus stretched out [His] hand and caught him, and said to him, "O you of little faith, why did you doubt?"
> 
> Luke 17:6 So the Lord said, "If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, `Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,' and it would obey you."
> 
> Mark 4:40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? How is it that ye have no faith? (KJV)



Thank you so much for listing this scripture. I was trying to remember where I read this. God gives us the measure of faith that we need to get saved and then its up to us to keep our faith high or low. It's how much we feed our inner man or our flesh. Thank you thank you Artfuldodger


----------



## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> Thank you so much for listing this scripture. I was trying to remember where I read this. God gives us the measure of faith that we need to get saved and then its up to us to keep our faith high or low. It's how much we feed our inner man or our flesh. Thank you thank you Artfuldodger



I didn't think anything was up to us.


----------



## M80

Its up to us if our faith is low or high. I have already said plenty of times on here that we are like two pit bulls. If you feed one steak and milk for a week and the other one just water, which one will win in a fight. Our inner man wants the word of god, prayer, meditation, church. Our flesh wants things of this earth. I've not contradicted myself none. I don't think none of us are going to convince the other one on this subject.


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## Ronnie T

No place does God's word say that He gives us all the faith necessary to be saved.  If God did that then everyone would be saved...... And it is God's desire that everyone do that.

Look back in Romans 1 and 2 and you can see this "measure" of faith.  It comes from everything that God has created and continues to do to sustain the universe.  The evidence is there for everyone to believe, for everyone to turn that belief into faith in Jesus Christ.
Some hear the good news of life in Christ and have enough faith to want to live for Christ.  Some only want to live for themselves.


----------



## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> 1Thes 3:
> 
> 1 Therefore when we could endure it no longer, we thought it best to be left behind at Athens alone, 2 and we sent Timothy, our brother and God’s fellow worker in the gospel of Christ, to strengthen and encourage you as to your faith, 3 so that no one would be disturbed by these afflictions; for you yourselves know that we have been destined for this. 4 For indeed when we were with you, we kept telling you in advance that we were going to suffer affliction; and so it came to pass, as you know. 5 For this reason, when I could endure it no longer, I also sent to find out about your faith, for fear that the tempter might have tempted you, and our labor would be in vain.
> 6 But now that Timothy has come to us from you, and has brought us good news of your faith and love, and that you always think kindly of us, longing to see us just as we also long to see you, 7 for this reason, brethren, in all our distress and affliction we were comforted about you through your faith; 8 for now we really live, if you stand firm in the Lord. 9 For what thanks can we render to God for you in return for all the joy with which we rejoice before our God on your account, 10 as we night and day keep praying most earnestly that we may see your face, and may complete what is lacking in your faith?
> 
> 11 Now may our God and Father Himself and Jesus our Lord direct our way to you; 12 and may the Lord cause you to increase and abound in love for one another, and for all people, just as we also do for you; 13 so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.



Life in Christ is a continual existence.  That's why we live in the "full armor of God" of Ephesians 6.

Verse 16:taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 

Our faith can destroy the effect of satan's continual attacks on each of us.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Hebrews 12:2 is often incorrectly used:

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Notice also the word "our" is in brackets, meaning the word was not in the Greek manuscripts. Perhaps the word "our" should never have been inserted because it was never meant to be there. The verse is not talking about our inner faith. It is talking about the object of our faith, the gospel. It is His faith. He created the gospel. The verse as written in the original Greek gives the correct meaning, "looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of faith." The gospel is His gospel that we correctly call "the gospel of Jesus Christ."

I don't like that rendition as much as this one:

We must focus on Jesus, the source and goal of our faith. He saw the joy ahead of him, so he endured death on the cross and ignored the disgrace it brought him. Then he received the highest position in heaven, the one next to the throne of God.

Jesus is the Captain of our faith. Jesus is what our faith is based on so yes in that respect he is the pioneer and finisher of our faith.


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## Artfuldodger

The good tidings which Timothy brought referred to the spiritual condition of the Thessalonians - their faith had not been shaken and their love had not waxed cold under the persecutions to which they were exposed; and along with their faith and love was the affection which they bore to the apostle, and their earnest desire to see him.

 8 for now we really live, if you stand firm in the Lord.

They were glad the Thessalonians had stood firm and didn't fall to temptation. What would have been their outcome if they had fallen? Why were they worried if it not possible to fall?
Why was it even possible for Christians to fall?


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## Artfuldodger

What does the following parable mean to a OSAS believer? What will happen to you if you don't put Jesus' words into practice?

JESUS SAID, “Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who
does the will of my FATHER who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not
prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? Then I will tell them
plainly, I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!
Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his
house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it
did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does
not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams
rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.” (Matthew 7:21-27)


----------



## Artfuldodger

This is about the most convincing parable. It's about forgiving people if you want God to forgive you. Forgiveness is a work.
In the following parable Jesus is talking to Christians so it pertains to Christians:

Matt 18:23-35
23	"For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a certain king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24	"And when he had begun to settle {them,} there was brought to him one who owed him ten thousand talents.
25	"But since he did not have {the means} to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
26	"The slave therefore falling down, prostrated himself before him, saying, 'Have patience with me, and I will repay you everything.'
27	"And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
28	"But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and {began} to choke {him,} saying, 'Pay back what you owe.'
29	"So his fellow slave fell down and {began} to entreat him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30	"He was unwilling however, but went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31	"So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32	"Then summoning him, his lord said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you entreated me.
33	'Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, even as I had mercy on you?'
34	"And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35	"So shall My heavenly Father also do to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."

(will said Christians be tortured in Heaven? I think not.)
( forgiving others is a requirement, not an "if you feel like it" task.)


----------



## M80

Ephesians 2 says "not of works, lest any should boast". It's not work for salvation. It's believing, for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness. Whose ever believeth in him. He holds us in his hand. For ye are bought with a price. He did everything, we accept him into our lives. He paid our sin depth with his precious blood. His blood washes away all our sins. It's not our to keep by working after we except it. NOT OF WORKS LEST ANY SHOULD BOAST. We work for The Lord cause what he did for us. We have a desire too. Not to keep our salvation


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## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> He paid our sin depth with his precious blood.


He paid our debts. We have no debts to pay. He has satisfied the justice of God for us. There is nothing left for us to satisfy. 

Salvation is the work of God alone! 

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:"


----------



## Ronnie T

You're on a roll Bro Art.
Amen to your last few comments.

In more than one way, faith = deeds(fruits of the spirit, works, obedience).


----------



## M80

gemcgrew said:


> He paid our debts. We have no debts to pay. He has satisfied the justice of God for us. There is nothing left for us to satisfy.
> 
> Salvation is the work of God alone!
> 
> "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:"



Let me rephrase that. He paid for our penalty" for the wages of sin is death, but the gift of god is eternal life through Jesus Christ our lord


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> This is about the most convincing parable. It's about forgiving people if you want God to forgive you. Forgiveness is a work.
> In the following parable Jesus is talking to Christians so it pertains to Christians:
> 
> Matt 18:23-35
> 23	"For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a certain king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
> 24	"And when he had begun to settle {them,} there was brought to him one who owed him ten thousand talents.
> 25	"But since he did not have {the means} to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
> 26	"The slave therefore falling down, prostrated himself before him, saying, 'Have patience with me, and I will repay you everything.'
> 27	"And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
> 28	"But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and {began} to choke {him,} saying, 'Pay back what you owe.'
> 29	"So his fellow slave fell down and {began} to entreat him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
> 30	"He was unwilling however, but went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
> 31	"So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
> 32	"Then summoning him, his lord said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you entreated me.
> 33	'Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, even as I had mercy on you?'
> 34	"And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
> 35	"So shall My heavenly Father also do to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."
> 
> (will said Christians be tortured in Heaven? I think not.)
> ( forgiving others is a requirement, not an "if you feel like it" task.)




So if I don't forgive someone I'm going to die and go to he11.        This beats all I've ever heard. If we don't forgive someone we will pay for this torture on this earth. If someone is born again why wouldn't they forgive

If we are to be forgiven we ask. 1st John. If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgives us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness


----------



## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> Let me rephrase that. He paid for our penalty" for the wages of sin is death, but the gift of god is eternal life through Jesus Christ our lord


No need to rephrase, I was agreeing with you.


----------



## barryl

Artfuldodger said:


> What does the following parable mean to a OSAS believer? What will happen to you if you don't put Jesus' words into practice?
> 
> JESUS SAID, “Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who
> does the will of my FATHER who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not
> prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? Then I will tell them
> plainly, I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!
> Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his
> house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it
> did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does
> not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams
> rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.” (Matthew 7:21-27)


Hey Art, just wanted to drop in a minute. Matt. Ch. 7 is applied to the Jews. These scriptures are "Faith and Works" scriptures. Didn't know you were of the "House Of Isreal." Just how many Christians{Acts 11:26} were {there} at that time? At that time, you might have to sacrifice a Lamb or a Dove as an atonement to put{remitted} off sin until Jesus Christ was rejected and Crucified at Calvary. So Matt. Ch. 7 has no application to a person that has recieved the "Sinless Blood Sacrifice" of The "Lord Jesus Christ at Calvary" unless it is spiritualized. You can probably put a "stumbling block" in front of some of the "Babes in Christ", but you're not going to trip up the few "Bible Believers" that know how to "Rightly Divide the word of Truth."


----------



## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> So if I don't forgive someone I'm going to die and go to he11.        This beats all I've ever heard. If we don't forgive someone we will pay for this torture on this earth. If someone is born again why wouldn't they forgive
> 
> If we are to be forgiven we ask. 1st John. If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgives us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness



That's not what he meant at all.


----------



## Israel

barryl said:


> Hey Art, just wanted to drop in a minute. Matt. Ch. 7 is applied to the Jews. These scriptures are "Faith and Works" scriptures. Didn't know you were of the "House Of Isreal." Just how many Christians{Acts 11:26} were {there} at that time? At that time, you might have to sacrifice a Lamb or a Dove as an atonement to put{remitted} off sin until Jesus Christ was rejected and Crucified at Calvary. So Matt. Ch. 7 has no application to a person that has recieved the "Sinless Blood Sacrifice" of The "Lord Jesus Christ at Calvary" unless it is spiritualized. You can probably put a "stumbling block" in front of some of the "Babes in Christ", but you're not going to trip up the few "Bible Believers" that know how to "Rightly Divide the word of Truth."



Do you think the scriptures are merely a "correct" history? I have no doubt to their historical veracity...but what...really...is their purpose? 

Everything quoted by any of the brothers here ...especially "of" the gospels...was recorded, (written down) after the resurrection, no?

Do you believe these brothers wrote in obedience to the Holy Spirit, and were inspired to do so? Were they not...at that specific "time"...able to be described as Christians? Were they recording Jesus' words (that appear to be of little import to a believer according to the opinions of some)...merely as an historical exercise? ...as though the Spirit were telling these brothers..."You know, write down all that "other stuff" Jesus said...even though it is not valid on "this side" of the resurrection."

I am not saying this could not be so. I am asking you if that is what you believe. 
That "christians" inspired of the Holy Spirit also were instructed to include all of what almost seems excess to you...?

Our brother John wrote we are to walk as he walked.
We are also admonished here:

1Ti 6:3  If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 
1Ti 6:4  He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 

I will say again, but perhaps for the last time to you, orthotomeo, the word from which whole doctrines have sprung up regarding a certain predilection for approving of "some" truth as opposed to rightly representing THE truth, means precisely that, and nothing more. 
To "rightly divide"...does not mean to separate according to ones opinions of what and which is to so and so and others written for the edification of the believer...but to rightly discern and present that which is taught by the scriptures.

There is no "rightly dividers" club.
Just truth.


----------



## M80

gemcgrew said:


> No need to rephrase, I was agreeing with you.



Praise The Lord!!!!!!   That don't happen to often


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> That's not what he meant at all.


What did he mean by "(will said Christians be tortured in Heaven? I think not.)"?


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Hey Art, just wanted to drop in a minute. Matt. Ch. 7 is applied to the Jews. These scriptures are "Faith and Works" scriptures. Didn't know you were of the "House Of Isreal." Just how many Christians{Acts 11:26} were {there} at that time? At that time, you might have to sacrifice a Lamb or a Dove as an atonement to put{remitted} off sin until Jesus Christ was rejected and Crucified at Calvary. So Matt. Ch. 7 has no application to a person that has recieved the "Sinless Blood Sacrifice" of The "Lord Jesus Christ at Calvary" unless it is spiritualized.



Matthew doesn't apply to Christians.

Acts doesn't apply to Christians.

See post #327.


----------



## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> That's not what he meant at all.





gemcgrew said:


> What did he mean by "(will said Christians be tortured in Heaven? I think not.)"?



He means:  "Christians will not be tortured in Heaven."


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> He means:  "Christians will not be tortured in Heaven."




Maybe I took it a little further than he intended.


----------



## Ronnie T

Israel said:


> Do you think the scriptures are merely a "correct" history? I have no doubt to their historical veracity...but what...really...is their purpose?
> 
> Everything quoted by any of the brothers here ...especially "of" the gospels...was recorded, (written down) after the resurrection, no?
> 
> Do you believe these brothers wrote in obedience to the Holy Spirit, and were inspired to do so? Were they not...at that specific "time"...able to be described as Christians? Were they recording Jesus' words (that appear to be of little import to a believer according to the opinions of some)...merely as an historical exercise? ...as though the Spirit were telling these brothers..."You know, write down all that "other stuff" Jesus said...even though it is not valid on "this side" of the resurrection."
> 
> I am not saying this could not be so. I am asking you if that is what you believe.
> That "christians" inspired of the Holy Spirit also were instructed to include all of what almost seems excess to you...?
> 
> Our brother John wrote we are to walk as he walked.
> We are also admonished here:
> 
> 1Ti 6:3  If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
> 1Ti 6:4  He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
> 
> I will say again, but perhaps for the last time to you, orthotomeo, the word from which whole doctrines have sprung up regarding a certain predilection for approving of "some" truth as opposed to rightly representing THE truth, means precisely that, and nothing more.
> To "rightly divide"...does not mean to separate according to ones opinions of what and which is to so and so and others written for the edification of the believer...but to rightly discern and present that which is taught by the scriptures.
> 
> There is no "rightly dividers" club.
> Just truth.



A great read for anyone confused about the gospels or the book of Acts.
.Thanks Israel.
.


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> So Matt. Ch. 7 has no application to a person that has recieved the "Sinless Blood Sacrifice" of The "Lord Jesus Christ at Calvary" unless it is spiritualized.



Think about what you just wrote.  Matt. 7 is almost entirely the words of Jesus, and you're saying they have "no application" to Christians.

You're like the "Bizarro Lowjack".  (That's a Seinfeld reference and not an insult.)  Lowjack pits the words of Paul and against the words of Jesus and sides with Jesus.

You pit the words of Paul and against the words of Jesus and side with Paul.


----------



## Ronnie T

centerpin fan said:


> Think about what you just wrote.  Matt. 7 is almost entirely the words of Jesus, and you're saying they have "no application" to Christians.
> 
> You're like the "Bizarro Lowjack".  (That's a Seinfeld reference and not an insult.)  Lowjack pits the words of Paul and against the words of Jesus and sides with Jesus.
> 
> You pit the words of Paul and against the words of Jesus and side with Paul.



It is a puzzlement isn't it?  "rightly divide".


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> It is a puzzlement isn't it?  "rightly divide".


It is a dispensationalist view.


----------



## M80

mwilliams80 said:


> So are you saying the flesh is saved. Jesus told Nicodemus we must be born again. If our soul is quickened(been made alive) it is born of god.
> John 3:16 "for god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Is Jesus lying there. If we have everlasting life how can we lose salvation and be cast in the lake of fire where the bible says this is the second death. If we could lose our salvation Jesus would be lying in John 3:16



Back to the OP subject. Nobody said anything about these verses. Who's going to say Jesus is wrong here


----------



## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> Back to the OP subject. Nobody said anything about these verses. Who's going to say Jesus is wrong here


There is an "elephant in the room". Would you believe OSAS if you were trusting in yourself?


----------



## M80

gemcgrew said:


> There is an "elephant in the room". Would you believe OSAS if you were trusting in yourself?



Nope!!!!!!!!!!!!!     Even Paul said he had to die daily


----------



## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> Hey Art, just wanted to drop in a minute. Matt. Ch. 7 is applied to the Jews. These scriptures are "Faith and Works" scriptures. Didn't know you were of the "House Of Isreal." Just how many Christians{Acts 11:26} were {there} at that time? At that time, you might have to sacrifice a Lamb or a Dove as an atonement to put{remitted} off sin until Jesus Christ was rejected and Crucified at Calvary. So Matt. Ch. 7 has no application to a person that has recieved the "Sinless Blood Sacrifice" of The "Lord Jesus Christ at Calvary" unless it is spiritualized. You can probably put a "stumbling block" in front of some of the "Babes in Christ", but you're not going to trip up the few "Bible Believers" that know how to "Rightly Divide the word of Truth."



I guess it could be to Jews or maybe a group of Christians between the Old & New covenants but I don't believe that is so. When Jesus was teaching to his disciples it was what he wanted them to tell people after he was resurrected.
Jesus said "many will say to me on that day"
Well I reckon we've go to decide when that day will come. If it means when he returns to Earth then I'd say it means every Christian. If that's what it means then we need to do the will of God. I'm not really trying to place stumbling blocks in front of any Christians. I would suggest Babes & Believers read the parables, I didn't write them, Jesus did.


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> Back to the OP subject. Nobody said anything about these verses. Who's going to say Jesus is wrong here



James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?
(go ahead and read the rest of the story for yourself about Abraham and his faith and what he did.)
21 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Israel said:


> Do you think the scriptures are merely a "correct" history? I have no doubt to their historical veracity...but what...really...is their purpose?
> 
> Everything quoted by any of the brothers here ...especially "of" the gospels...was recorded, (written down) after the resurrection, no?
> 
> Do you believe these brothers wrote in obedience to the Holy Spirit, and were inspired to do so? Were they not...at that specific "time"...able to be described as Christians? Were they recording Jesus' words (that appear to be of little import to a believer according to the opinions of some)...merely as an historical exercise? ...as though the Spirit were telling these brothers..."You know, write down all that "other stuff" Jesus said...even though it is not valid on "this side" of the resurrection."
> 
> I am not saying this could not be so. I am asking you if that is what you believe.
> That "christians" inspired of the Holy Spirit also were instructed to include all of what almost seems excess to you...?
> 
> Our brother John wrote we are to walk as he walked.
> We are also admonished here:
> 
> 1Ti 6:3  If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
> 1Ti 6:4  He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
> 
> I will say again, but perhaps for the last time to you, orthotomeo, the word from which whole doctrines have sprung up regarding a certain predilection for approving of "some" truth as opposed to rightly representing THE truth, means precisely that, and nothing more.
> To "rightly divide"...does not mean to separate according to ones opinions of what and which is to so and so and others written for the edification of the believer...but to rightly discern and present that which is taught by the scriptures.
> 
> There is no "rightly dividers" club.
> Just truth.



You did no mathematics at all, didn't need any.


----------



## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> Hey Art, just wanted to drop in a minute. Matt. Ch. 7 is applied to the Jews. These scriptures are "Faith and Works" scriptures. Didn't know you were of the "House Of Isreal." Just how many Christians{Acts 11:26} were {there} at that time? At that time, you might have to sacrifice a Lamb or a Dove as an atonement to put{remitted} off sin until Jesus Christ was rejected and Crucified at Calvary. So Matt. Ch. 7 has no application to a person that has recieved the "Sinless Blood Sacrifice" of The "Lord Jesus Christ at Calvary" unless it is spiritualized. You can probably put a "stumbling block" in front of some of the "Babes in Christ", but you're not going to trip up the few "Bible Believers" that know how to "Rightly Divide the word of Truth."



I have a surprise for you.  Every book/letter of the New Testament has "faith and works" scripture.


By the way, did you read Israel's last post?  What did you think of it's reasoning?
.


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> So if I don't forgive someone I'm going to die and go to he11.        This beats all I've ever heard. If we don't forgive someone we will pay for this torture on this earth. If someone is born again why wouldn't they forgive
> 
> If we are to be forgiven we ask. 1st John. If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgives us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness



Your forgiveness of others is between you and God. Do you look at the parable as an Earthly judgement? Why? Jesus will Judge us when he returns. Possible on Earth if that's what you mean.
I can't answer why Christians don't forgive others any more than why Christians gamble or cheat. I'm only quoting the parables. I didn't write them, Jesus did.

I would imagine my salvation has a lot to do with my faith, obedience, heart, and spirit. I'm not willing to use the word "alone."
Too many parables and verses about doing the will of God for me to ignore them. I'll stand by my requirement to forgive others. I'll also add that might be the hardest of all the requirements. I'm not gonna go out tomorrow and gamble or get drunk but there is a great possibility I might be inclined to not forgive someone.
Hopefully that "alone" will not send me to He!!. Hopefully God knows my heart & soul and looks at my faith & obedience.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> What did he mean by "(will said Christians be tortured in Heaven? I think not.)"?



In the parable the unforgiven slaves were tortured. 
34 "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "So shall My heavenly Father also do to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."

What does that mean to you? I would assume non forgivers of brothers were never Christians to begin with as true Christians can't sin or fall from grace. 

Is the parable written for that group of believers in Jesus before the resurrection while Jesus was on the Earht? What is that group of believers in Christ called? Walking the Earth with Christ Christians?

And to others, why would Jesus walk the Earth and not teach to future believers? Part of his coming to Earth besides dieing for our salvation was to teach of the Kingdom of God. There is no separation. He is teaching to us. Part of his teaching includes commandments and obedience to God and his Kingdom. The whole concept is about the Kingdom of God, you can't divide the truth.


----------



## Ronnie T

No one "works" to gain salvation.
But the truly faithful are about the business of doing God's work.

1 Corinthians 15:58 (NKJV)
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.

Hebrews 6:10 (NKJV)
10 For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

And we all believe this.............
1 Corinthians 3:6â€“7 (NKJV)
6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 

See, those of us who discuss "works" don't believe we work ourselves into salvation, it's just that we aren't afraid to acknowledge that the word exists.  Obedience and works are a part of Christianity.
Those who refuse to discuss it are ignoring their very reason for existence today.  They are naïve and shortsighted.  They acknowledge part of the gospel, but refuse to acknowledge another part of the gospel.

We are here to shine as lights.  We don't shine as biblical scholars.    We shine while we live for Christ.
.


----------



## M80

Ronnie T said:


> No one "works" to gain salvation.
> But the truly faithful are about the business of doing God's work.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 15:58 (NKJV)
> 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.
> 
> Hebrews 6:10 (NKJV)
> 10 For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
> 
> And we all believe this.............
> 1 Corinthians 3:6â€“7 (NKJV)
> 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.
> 
> See, those of us who discuss "works" don't believe we work ourselves into salvation, it's just that we aren't afraid to acknowledge that the word exists.  Obedience and works are a part of Christianity.
> Those who refuse to discuss it are ignoring their very reason for existence today.  They are naïve and shortsighted.  They acknowledge part of the gospel, but refuse to acknowledge another part of the gospel.
> 
> We are here to shine as lights.  We don't shine as biblical scholars.    We shine while we live for Christ.
> .



Yes!!!!!  Me and Ronnie agree on something.  Praise The Lord


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> What does that mean to you?


Exactly what it says and it condemns us all. God requires absolute perfect holiness, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Where do we find it? I have no acceptance before God, but Christ!


----------



## gordon 2

Ronnie T said:


> I have a surprise for you. ....
> 
> By the way, did you read Israel's last post?  What did you think of it's reasoning?
> .



Do I think miracles are possible on this forum? Perhaps. And Perhaps Isreal is one or I am, because I remember the days when Isreal was almost impossible to understand by yours truly. I use to have to hunt for the questions to the answers in his many one sentence paragraphs. It was a crossword and criptic search for a stream of meaning. Many days, a search to find the soul of a man that one knew the Holy Spirit was ministering to... it was a search for the plain christian under the hat of a man. It was fun.

But now...the man's words are re-arranged in wholesome subject verb compliment order with meaning and purpose like a flood bursting from a lake of light once held back by an ancient ice dam. Or I am the miracle and his seeming re-arrangement is a relaxing of my derangements. But I think not. The man is a miracle of reasoning, I continue in derangements.

A saint once all up in the air--the miracle is he comes down to share. Perhaps.

 Math 7:7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you."


----------



## hummerpoo

gemcgrew said:


> It is a dispensationalist view.



I have a unidispensational view.  Scripture is determined to be applicable if it falls, in time, between "in the beginning" and "so that God may be all in all".


----------



## hummerpoo

Israel said:


> There is will.
> There is man's will.
> There is God's will.
> You must learn which of these "wills" is free, and which is already encumbered, confined, circumscribed completely by the malevolent intent of  THE one bound by the revelation of the victory of Christ. You are not a man "running" toward a cliff...YOU are a man who has, by appearance in flesh, already submitted to every whim of this malignant foe.
> 
> The Lord does not "make" you do anything...all he does is level the playing field by removal of the blinders off that which is ALREADY his by ownership of creation...and then says..."ok, now choose."
> 
> Liberty to choose comes with the freedom afforded in the gospel's power that sets men free. Till then a slave imagines himself free.
> 
> "Will you leave also?" Jesus asked the 12.



Well said, brother.


----------



## Israel

Gordon...you break my heart with your kindness...always have.
You are very correct in the ice dam vision. It was/is...my own heart. 
Things that were to be meat to me, I was so hard about trying to share with others...I confess with the shame of a man forgiven the whole of my interests in the gospel were revealed as all of "my own" desire to try and make of myself, something.
Things I heard "in the spirit" were of no more import to me than "what do "I" get to say now...?"

What was meant as life...was data. And it passed through my very very hard drive of ice and came out, not as meat, but as some frozen concoction upon which I had no care whether brothers broke their teeth in seeking to receive it. 

"But, Lord, I really really need to add to this pot the brothers are cooking! They have it all spiced up good but it needs a little more of "my".

I remember a man who married a woman who already had some daughters and grandchildren. One of the grandchildren was the "heart" of this woman...and this man bristled at the place this granddaughter held in his wife's heart. Because of her race, because of her "place" in a family that grew around her of other children born, now, (of a more genial race to that man...)...this granddaughter was seen by the wife as the "odd man out"...and continued to bring such understanding and compassion from the wife...that the man only saw as indulgence and excuse.
This man imagined himself a "seer".
"I see where this is heading...all this stuff...one day she will just show up on our doorstep, unmarried, a teen, and pregnant...and then WE will HAVE to deal with it!"

It came to pass, but over such a time that this man's heart, if not melted...was perhaps resigned to a life in which he had learned to kind of accept that his world was now peopled with strangers, and he might as well just do the day to day and get on with it.

Now, here is the remarkable part...despite this man's years of speaking of things he thought he understood well enough to speak of (but didn't)...of all these years of a man hypocritically seeming to champion the Lord's walking in death to himself that we might live, of a man who sought to make himself something by trying to speak eloquently of the significance of the cross of Christ as the beam of hope...and not the place of shame as the world would attribute...all of this man's hypocrisy when viewed in the inner workings of a heart the Lord plainly saw and sees...never kept the Lord at bay...the Lord continued to "be" with that man. 

But this man had to have his eyes opened to a central truth he now sees...perhaps dimly...but is cautioned daily to hold to by the gift of a spirit he knows is not his own to command.

As simply as I can express it, I have been told..."These things I give you of my life, my "being"...are gifts to you...FOR you. Boy, you have been very quick to shout from the housetops, but slow of understanding. You have been using my Son as your "prop"...your own little soap box which you ascend with delight at every opportunity...eschewing those you see on "stages"...clamoring for the spotlight, but you, son, have been doing this all along...simply taking what I give as nothing more than an occasion to awkwardly boast of things, that though true, you have no real knowledge of...now...we shall get down to the lesson. We will see what you have that can come out on the other side of death".

And death came...in its fierce untimeliness, and death arrived  (this death of which this man was so sure he was ready to conquer in his great power of his spirit) and death revealed its infection in this man's soul, its resident malignant purpose...and even enticed him to his shame...which he now confesses as a man forgiven..."At least you can then speak at the little girl's funeral...see...something can be salvaged out of this...you can preach some more! You can "have" peoples attention! You can still be "eloquent"!

I say with tears...of the deepest gratitude I have yet touched...that a "NO!" came. A NO!...not of me, from me...but definitely...definitely FOR me.
"DO NOT GO THERE!" Do not go there in thought, do not go there in word, do not go there in deed! 
How quickly you turn to "yourself" for some form of comfort...reason...but NO!

But then...where? Where to go? What else is there in that helicopter? A baby not breathing and needing a nurse to force oxygen into her lungs with a bag. A body not moving...a life that "seemed" to be...no where now to be seen. I do not like this place...where I cannot see...I do not like being told NO!...I do not like...being told to walk where I do not KNOW...

A wife, now so broken and sorrowful she cannot stand up straight...she hurries from the path the little gurney will take to the ER doors upon the copter's landing saying "I can't see her...I can't bear to see her like this..." and she hurries away in a hunch.
So broken, so pitiful, so "without" all the strength in which I had previously delighted.

Oh, Lord, I do not like this "being on the field"...let me go back to that stands where I may cheer! Let me go back, let me go...I "know" what all this means! I have seen it before!
NO!
You stand here! You stand in this place at which you work, where people know you as something "else"...and where this security guard will come and tell you you cannot be...you cannot touch the child as she passes, you cannot "do" anything...and you CANNOT try and presume because of your relationship to this child...and revile against the world...you can only ask that you be allowed to stay here, and that you will not do anything unseemly...and you will put the fear to rest in the security man's eyes that he "may have a crazy one here that may try to "do" something"...you will not encourage fear, nor hurt this man's soul in his worries about doing the right thing regarding you. 

This isn't the place where you "Get to be somebody".
"YOU have no soapbox now...you are just with me. It is enough."

And when the voice spoke, thrice...as the little gurney passed with such intent and anxious purpose in the eyes of those escorting her...and when the voice spoke...almost, no...not almost...completely... unbidden from a place I knew I had no "right" to be...but was in response to all my own inability and simple plea to one from whom I could demand nothing, but ask anything...when the voice spoke through a weak and now trembling earthen vessel...that the third repetition was through tears and utter...(to everyone but the maker of life)...almost hopeless surrender..."LIFE TO YOU BROOKLYN RAYNE IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST!"...so that the flight nurse looked up, as she bagged the baby's breaths into her fragile body, with a look of puzzlement...a look of "I've seen a lot...but what's going on here...who are you...and what is being said...and why?"...as they disappeared through the ER doors.

Lord...I still don't see. This place still seems dark. But, "a" patience took over...a peace took over...a life...not my own...took over. And I saw shadows moving, fierce eyed...circling...they whispered..."come out and face us...secure your camp...bring your strongest weapon". "How did this happen?" Who did this to the child...did someone do this to the child...what will you do to someone if you find out they did this to the child...what "if"...
Who sinned? Who so screwed this up? Who's to blame...this man, or his parents... that he was born blind?
Who MADE this mess?
NO! Wrong questions...get answers you won't like. 
Will you see LIFE...child?
yes Lord...Please Lord...please! Please...let me see LIFE! I don't care about anything else...let me see LIFE!

Yes...what "IF"? 

What if God...knowing where a man's heart lay better than that man ever knew...what if God...knowing that his son would be given and abused, but gave him nevertheless to such a man...what if God...knowing this man would be all wrong about everything he thought he knew...but wanted to reach that man, nonetheless...and what if God knew...even now!...this man has a tendency to still try to steal a glory that is freely given...what if God had to completely undo something that had power to blind...but could only be healed by the closing of his own beloved son's eyes...in death...what if God truly loved beyond all such a man's reasonings, eloquences...and loved a man even more...than such a man loves himself?

I say without shame...as a man who has loved himself to the destruction of whole of worlds and peoples...as a man who loves himself without remedy...but for One...who has loved him even more.

The baby sleeps not five feet from me, now, on the other side of this wall behind my monitor...she rubbed my head when she had to be awoken by my wife and brought to our bed to be put back to sleep at 3am because she had soaked her bedclothes. The dogs love to eat the morsels dropped "mistakenly" while she eats from her high chair...and her married parents now sleep at the other end of the house while they await a new apartment. 

Gordon said something too wonderful not long ago...we are not victims of one another. It is the Lord speaking. "LIFE TO YOU _____  _____ IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST!"

My life has not been peopled with strangers...I was just too strange to myself even, to recognize men as anything other than trees walking. And because "that" One refuses...even in my most stubborn and recalcitrant efforts to keep my "self" intact...and to see me as other...I find myself being brought into a large place...full of smiling friends and lovers of my soul...if I will but let the One who is the delight of the soul of His Father...break my heart...with his love.

These things "come to light"...that is...at the time...all seemed dark...all seemed hopeless...all seemed...death...and I can take no stand on anything but what I have discovered is the only thing that ever comes out "on the other side of it"...and it is not "my"...anything...only Jesus...and the moment I even begin to imagine he is more "my" than anyones...that terrible taste returns to my mouth...of ashes and broken things...irreparable.

WE...all of us...together WE...will see LIFE.
WE...will leave none behind...not because of our nobility of purpose...not because of our devotion...but because in his body, by his death, by his being torn open to make room for us all...he has received us all...and made us all One. And the first is last, and the last is first...and all that is...is One new man.


----------



## gemcgrew

Israel, thank you for that. Even though we ran or perhaps run after our desires, ourselves, in our rebellion, It is God who graciously provides for us. As I read your post, one verse kept flooding my mind....

"For she did not know that I gave her corn, and wine, and oil, and multiplied her silver and gold, which they prepared for Baal."

Thank you for sharing what I perceive to be a moment of consumption and consummation. I am thankful for such moments.


----------



## BT Charlie

She's quite a season, brother, this Brooklyn Rayne... . Awesome testimony for a hungry reader.  Since the real time dispatches you sent us of her peril, I have been longing for this very Good News.  Good works....


----------



## gemcgrew

hummerpoo said:


> I have a unidispensational view.  Scripture is determined to be applicable if it falls, in time, between "in the beginning" and "so that God may be all in all".


I see one covenant, a covenant of Grace.


----------



## gordon 2

Israel said:


> Gordon...you break my heart with your kindness...always have.
> You are very correct in the ice dam vision. It was/is...my own heart.
> Things that were to be meat to me, I was so hard about trying to share with others...I confess with the shame of a man forgiven the whole of my interests in the gospel were revealed as all of "my own" desire to try and make of myself, something.
> Things I heard "in the spirit" were of no more import to me than "what do "I" get to say now...?"
> 
> What was meant as life...was data. And it passed through my very very hard drive of ice and came out, not as meat, but as some frozen concoction upon which I had no care whether brothers broke their teeth in seeking to receive it.
> 
> "But, Lord, I really really need to add to this pot the brothers are cooking! They have it all spiced up good but it needs a little more of "my".
> 
> I remember a man who married a woman who already had some daughters and grandchildren. One of the grandchildren was the "heart" of this woman...and this man bristled at the place this granddaughter held in his wife's heart. Because of her race, because of her "place" in a family that grew around her of other children born, now, (of a more genial race to that man...)...this granddaughter was seen by the wife as the "odd man out"...and continued to bring such understanding and compassion from the wife...that the man only saw as indulgence and excuse.
> This man imagined himself a "seer".
> "I see where this is heading...all this stuff...one day she will just show up on our doorstep, unmarried, a teen, and pregnant...and then WE will HAVE to deal with it!"
> 
> It came to pass, but over such a time that this man's heart, if not melted...was perhaps resigned to a life in which he had learned to kind of accept that his world was now peopled with strangers, and he might as well just do the day to day and get on with it.
> 
> Now, here is the remarkable part...despite this man's years of speaking of things he thought he understood well enough to speak of (but didn't)...of all these years of a man hypocritically seeming to champion the Lord's walking in death to himself that we might live, of a man who sought to make himself something by trying to speak eloquently of the significance of the cross of Christ as the beam of hope...and not the place of shame as the world would attribute...all of this man's hypocrisy when viewed in the inner workings of a heart the Lord plainly saw and sees...never kept the Lord at bay...the Lord continued to "be" with that man.
> 
> But this man had to have his eyes opened to a central truth he now sees...perhaps dimly...but is cautioned daily to hold to by the gift of a spirit he knows is not his own to command.
> 
> As simply as I can express it, I have been told..."These things I give you of my life, my "being"...are gifts to you...FOR you. Boy, you have been very quick to shout from the housetops, but slow of understanding. You have been using my Son as your "prop"...your own little soap box which you ascend with delight at every opportunity...eschewing those you see on "stages"...clamoring for the spotlight, but you, son, have been doing this all along...simply taking what I give as nothing more than an occasion to awkwardly boast of things, that though true, you have no real knowledge of...now...we shall get down to the lesson. We will see what you have that can come out on the other side of death".
> 
> And death came...in its fierce untimeliness, and death arrived  (this death of which this man was so sure he was ready to conquer in his great power of his spirit) and death revealed its infection in this man's soul, its resident malignant purpose...and even enticed him to his shame...which he now confesses as a man forgiven..."At least you can then speak at the little girl's funeral...see...something can be salvaged out of this...you can preach some more! You can "have" peoples attention! You can still be "eloquent"!
> 
> I say with tears...of the deepest gratitude I have yet touched...that a "NO!" came. A NO!...not of me, from me...but definitely...definitely FOR me.
> "DO NOT GO THERE!" Do not go there in thought, do not go there in word, do not go there in deed!
> How quickly you turn to "yourself" for some form of comfort...reason...but NO!
> 
> But then...where? Where to go? What else is there in that helicopter? A baby not breathing and needing a nurse to force oxygen into her lungs with a bag. A body not moving...a life that "seemed" to be...no where now to be seen. I do not like this place...where I cannot see...I do not like being told NO!...I do not like...being told to walk where I do not KNOW...
> 
> A wife, now so broken and sorrowful she cannot stand up straight...she hurries from the path the little gurney will take to the ER doors upon the copter's landing saying "I can't see her...I can't bear to see her like this..." and she hurries away in a hunch.
> So broken, so pitiful, so "without" all the strength in which I had previously delighted.
> 
> Oh, Lord, I do not like this "being on the field"...let me go back to that stands where I may cheer! Let me go back, let me go...I "know" what all this means! I have seen it before!
> NO!
> You stand here! You stand in this place at which you work, where people know you as something "else"...and where this security guard will come and tell you you cannot be...you cannot touch the child as she passes, you cannot "do" anything...and you CANNOT try and presume because of your relationship to this child...and revile against the world...you can only ask that you be allowed to stay here, and that you will not do anything unseemly...and you will put the fear to rest in the security man's eyes that he "may have a crazy one here that may try to "do" something"...you will not encourage fear, nor hurt this man's soul in his worries about doing the right thing regarding you.
> 
> This isn't the place where you "Get to be somebody".
> "YOU have no soapbox now...you are just with me. It is enough."
> 
> And when the voice spoke, thrice...as the little gurney passed with such intent and anxious purpose in the eyes of those escorting her...and when the voice spoke...almost, no...not almost...completely... unbidden from a place I knew I had no "right" to be...but was in response to all my own inability and simple plea to one from whom I could demand nothing, but ask anything...when the voice spoke through a weak and now trembling earthen vessel...that the third repetition was through tears and utter...(to everyone but the maker of life)...almost hopeless surrender..."LIFE TO YOU BROOKLYN RAYNE IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST!"...so that the flight nurse looked up, as she bagged the baby's breaths into her fragile body, with a look of puzzlement...a look of "I've seen a lot...but what's going on here...who are you...and what is being said...and why?"...as they disappeared through the ER doors.
> 
> Lord...I still don't see. This place still seems dark. But, "a" patience took over...a peace took over...a life...not my own...took over. And I saw shadows moving, fierce eyed...circling...they whispered..."come out and face us...secure your camp...bring your strongest weapon". "How did this happen?" Who did this to the child...did someone do this to the child...what will you do to someone if you find out they did this to the child...what "if"...
> Who sinned? Who so screwed this up? Who's to blame...this man, or his parents... that he was born blind?
> Who MADE this mess?
> NO! Wrong questions...get answers you won't like.
> Will you see LIFE...child?
> yes Lord...Please Lord...please! Please...let me see LIFE! I don't care about anything else...let me see LIFE!
> 
> Yes...what "IF"?
> 
> What if God...knowing where a man's heart lay better than that man ever knew...what if God...knowing that his son would be given and abused, but gave him nevertheless to such a man...what if God...knowing this man would be all wrong about everything he thought he knew...but wanted to reach that man, nonetheless...and what if God knew...even now!...this man has a tendency to still try to steal a glory that is freely given...what if God had to completely undo something that had power to blind...but could only be healed by the closing of his own beloved son's eyes...in death...what if God truly loved beyond all such a man's reasonings, eloquences...and loved a man even more...than such a man loves himself?
> 
> I say without shame...as a man who has loved himself to the destruction of whole of worlds and peoples...as a man who loves himself without remedy...but for One...who has loved him even more.
> 
> The baby sleeps not five feet from me, now, on the other side of this wall behind my monitor...she rubbed my head when she had to be awoken by my wife and brought to our bed to be put back to sleep at 3am because she had soaked her bedclothes. The dogs love to eat the morsels dropped "mistakenly" while she eats from her high chair...and her married parents now sleep at the other end of the house while they await a new apartment.
> 
> Gordon said something too wonderful not long ago...we are not victims of one another. It is the Lord speaking. "LIFE TO YOU _____  _____ IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST!"
> 
> My life has not been peopled with strangers...I was just too strange to myself even, to recognize men as anything other than trees walking. And because "that" One refuses...even in my most stubborn and recalcitrant efforts to keep my "self" intact...and to see me as other...I find myself being brought into a large place...full of smiling friends and lovers of my soul...if I will but let the One who is the delight of the soul of His Father...break my heart...with his love.
> 
> These things "come to light"...that is...at the time...all seemed dark...all seemed hopeless...all seemed...death...and I can take no stand on anything but what I have discovered is the only thing that ever comes out "on the other side of it"...and it is not "my"...anything...only Jesus...and the moment I even begin to imagine he is more "my" than anyones...that terrible taste returns to my mouth...of ashes and broken things...irreparable.
> 
> WE...all of us...together WE...will see LIFE.
> WE...will leave none behind...not because of our nobility of purpose...not because of our devotion...but because in his body, by his death, by his being torn open to make room for us all...he has received us all...and made us all One. And the first is last, and the last is first...and all that is...is One new man.



Hum Ha! I just realized you write with dots... three of them regularly...


Let me show you something interesting. Replace the three dots with Father, Son and the Holy Spirit everywhere you've placed them in a sentence. 

I think that is the title of this book The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit, of which you have written the first chapter. I think God will let you be a writer if you so wish to minister or witness in such a way-- even boast and enjoy being one. But here's the catch.... Y'all are only permitted to call yourself a writer or a witness... only after it is published! Not before. It is up to you of course. 

Here's a bit of "light" on it: make it authobiographical,  be truthfull as an old grandma with no filter and make it litterature ---not just pulp NY times best seller's list junk... 

Write...in your born again way... but don't forget the people who love you... "thou shall not lock yourself out again". And loose it all.

Just my 2cents bros. Peace.


----------



## gordon 2

gemcgrew said:


> I see one covenant, a covenant of Grace.



I wonder if ours will be the last covenant. I think our sons and dauthers will need more.  We can't seem to get the soils under our toes fertile to where a really good garden might grow... and I don't see it improving real soon unless you have a bright idea.... to share.... And if you do don't hog it. peace bros.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> Israel, thank you for that. Even though we ran or perhaps run after our desires, ourselves, in our rebellion, It is God who graciously provides for us. As I read your post, one verse kept flooding my mind....
> 
> "For she did not know that I gave her corn, and wine, and oil, and multiplied her silver and gold, which they prepared for Baal."
> 
> Thank you for sharing what I perceive to be a moment of consumption and consummation. I am thankful for such moments.





BT Charlie said:


> She's quite a season, brother, this Brooklyn Rayne... . Awesome testimony for a hunry reader.  Since the real time dispatches you sent us of her peril, I have been longing for this very Good News.  Good works....



Then, and even now, I've always wanted to hold her.  To hold my face against her face.  Why is that?  Maybe so the things she's experienced can touch my life.  Maybe so I can touch her life, though for a moment.

Israel, do your tears come much easier now?  I know they do.  Thank you brother for the love.
.


----------



## barryl

Israel said:


> Do you think the scriptures are merely a "correct" history? I have no doubt to their historical veracity...but what...really...is their purpose?
> 
> Everything quoted by any of the brothers here ...especially "of" the gospels...was recorded, (written down) after the resurrection, no?
> 
> Do you believe these brothers wrote in obedience to the Holy Spirit, and were inspired to do so? Were they not...at that specific "time"...able to be described as Christians? Were they recording Jesus' words (that appear to be of little import to a believer according to the opinions of some)...merely as an historical exercise? ...as though the Spirit were telling these brothers..."You know, write down all that "other stuff" Jesus said...even though it is not valid on "this side" of the resurrection."
> 
> I am not saying this could not be so. I am asking you if that is what you believe.
> That "christians" inspired of the Holy Spirit also were instructed to include all of what almost seems excess to you...?
> 
> Our brother John wrote we are to walk as he walked.
> We are also admonished here:
> 
> 1Ti 6:3  If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
> 1Ti 6:4  He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
> 
> I will say again, but perhaps for the last time to you, orthotomeo, the word from which whole doctrines have sprung up regarding a certain predilection for approving of "some" truth as opposed to rightly representing THE truth, means precisely that, and nothing more.
> To "rightly divide"...does not mean to separate according to ones opinions of what and which is to so and so and others written for the edification of the believer...but to rightly discern and present that which is taught by the scriptures.
> 
> There is no "rightly dividers" club.
> Just truth.


Spiritual, DOCTRINAL, HISTORICAL!!! Make a note of this. This is how you "Rightly Divide."


----------



## barryl

centerpin fan said:


> Think about what you just wrote.  Matt. 7 is almost entirely the words of Jesus, and you're saying they have "no application" to Christians.
> 
> You're like the "Bizarro Lowjack".  (That's a Seinfeld reference and not an insult.)  Lowjack pits the words of Paul and against the words of Jesus and sides with Jesus.
> 
> You pit the words of Paul and against the words of Jesus and side with Paul.


Still trying to drag New Testament Christians back into Old Testament{Faith and Works}Doctrine? Since ya'll can't seem to cut ties from the gospels or Acts, Try Romans-Philemons. 1 Cor. 10:11 KJV AV, ensamples, written for "our" admonition.  And last ,but not least, where did Paul get his words from? Titus Ch. 3- Admonitions.


----------



## barryl

Artfuldodger said:


> James 2:19
> You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.
> 20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?
> (go ahead and read the rest of the story for yourself about Abraham and his faith and what he did.)
> 21 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
> 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.


Historical, Doctrinal. Take a look at James 1:1 " to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad." KJV AV. I work because I have been Saved, not to be, or stay saved.


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Still trying to drag New Testament Christians back into Old Testament{Faith and Works}Doctrine? Since ya'll can't seem to cut ties from the gospels or Acts ...



I disagree with you on the gospels (but I understand you.)  I do NOT understand how you include Acts in there.  From start to finish, it's about _the church_.


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Historical, Doctrinal. Take a look at James 1:1 " to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad." KJV AV.



So there is no doctrine in James that is applicable to Gentile Christians?


----------



## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> Still trying to drag New Testament Christians back into Old Testament{Faith and Works}Doctrine? Since ya'll can't seem to cut ties from the gospels or Acts, Try Romans-Philemons. 1 Cor. 10:11 KJV AV, ensamples, written for "our" admonition.  And last ,but not least, where did Paul get his words from? Titus Ch. 3- Admonitions.



I swear, you're like a broken record......  I'm proud to say that there are few things that you and I agree on.
And your concept of "rightly divide" is totally flawed, in my humble opinion.


----------



## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> Historical, Doctrinal. Take a look at James 1:1 " to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad." KJV AV. I work because I have been Saved, not to be, or stay saved.



Do you really believe James' letter cannot and does not apply to all Christians, simply because of verse 1?

Paul's letter Romans wasn't written to us.
Revelation wasn't written to us.
Galatians certainly wasn't written to us.
Acts was written to an individual.

But they were all written to Christians.  And they all apply equally to you, whether you accept them or not.
You can play this "rightly divide" game until Jesus returns, but you better soon come to terms with the fact that these books and letters hold God's will for you in your physical life right now.
You cannot preach yourself into heaven.  Some place in life you gonna need to find some humility.


----------



## hummerpoo

gemcgrew said:


> I see one covenant, a covenant of Grace.



They (the many covenants) are indeed but one, and it is of Grace.


----------



## Israel

barryl said:


> Spiritual, DOCTRINAL, HISTORICAL!!! Make a note of this. This is how you "Rightly Divide."


When I was convinced of how much I was needed, how necessary I was, how absolutely indispensable I was to the Lord and his body, I never saw where all of this was coming from...in me. 

(Here's a hint as to what is going on in a man's heart...the thing upon which he expounds the most...is often the thing about which the Lord is dealing with HIM. Now, that is not to say a man can never deliver a pure word apart from the influences of a confused or injured soul, but for this...a man comes to appreciate the power of God) 

What I thought was "the faith of the son of God" as I went about teaching how indispensable we all are, how important we all are...how necessary we all are...I did this while casually dismissing almost everything and anything anyone had to say on matters of faith...because...after all, I WAS indispensable...and I thought what everyone needed was my understanding. When really...all I was trying to do was buttress my own feelings of acceptance...which came from a broken mainspring of rejection and frustrations and perceived failures. 

In MY need to know I was accepted, forgiven, loved..."right before God" I could easily wear the ears off a brass monkey in my eloquence about how much we are loved. How precious we are to him. How the Lord's cross delivers us from precisely all that afflicts us. Oh, how I needed to really KNOW...the things I held forth as truth. 

In this I believe I learned something about how the Lord uses desire...to mature us.

We see Him, we begin to know him, how we long to be "like" him! And then he tells us...now go...preach the gospel.
The Lord has given me a task! The Lord has called me and anointed me! The Lord wants me to "do" something for him!
Little do we know at the time, the doing is all for us...toward us.

What I mistook as a sending, obviously because I was so wise and knowledgeable...now...and obviously prepared...(why else would the Lord send me?)...I discovered was precisely because I was none of those things of which I imagined myself.

The Lord knew something I had to learn...we LEARN the gospel...when we begin to preach the gospel. 

We learn...in setting out to do the ONE thing we have told ourselves is the MOST very noble thing a man can do...that is...serve the Lord of heaven...we are rejected...misunderstood...thought stupid, unlearned...even a "heretic". (Of course, along the way the Lord provides encouragements...and the seeming rare, and often overlooked brother or sister that offers comfort) But even then...while we retain this self enforced and imagined "nobility of purpose"...it is easy to scorn even their simple fellowship.

A man on a mission can be very dangerous...to both himself...and others. He may discover this Lord he preaches...is not really Lord at all...just a burning need inside of himself to feel important.  A man may, eventually, come up against so much resistance he finds his own strength of will now fails him, his own need is no longer a wellspring of strength...but of misery, and may even, I say may even, come to the place where he may exclaim...O, wretched man that I am! All my hypocrisy, all my fine understandings are undone...for while in striving to preach the gospel of peace...I have no peace...while striving to preach the Savior of mankind...it has been revealed to me...I HATE mankind!

Who will deliver me from this body of death?

This "thing" that has used the torn and bloodied body of the Savior...to try to keep itself intact, separate...indeed..."holier than" all the other thous to which I thought you sent me!

Ahhh, then begins the revelation of the NEED of salvation.
Not as an intellectual approval, not as an historical event, not even as a matter of "personal revelation". Just a plain, very plain, obviously painfully plain truth. To a man who now sees how much he needs the Lord who loves mankind...because he sees how much he has always longed for someone to love a man he knows...but knows all too well, anyone less than someone with the power of God, if they REALLY knew him...could never love him.

(oh...so this is what it means? I can't be a disciple unless and until I hate myself? I can't really learn much at all while I am so in love with myself...and trying desperately to buttress, from myself...against...all this loathing...I have for myself...that has now infected everyone, everything I see?)

Then, perhaps something may happen. A man may even come to believe the reality of the Holy Spirit is already doing what Jesus described...convicting, leading, convincing men of their mistakes, their sin, their ignorance and rebellions. Doing just what Jesus says the Holy Spirit will do when given? (has the Holy Spirit come?)

Hey, Lord...what about my necessity? What about my being needed to help?

Oh...you are needed...and greatly desired...just come...and "be" with me. You can stop being the Barney Fife of disciples...anytime you want. (has that foot wound healed yet, son...lemme touch it again)

From that "gift" I so sorely needed...I find a place prepared...not as I thought, for a wandering deputy parading his own badge...but as a friend, who has convinced me...and as I had discovered, was working the same in so many I easily overlooked...just stay with him...and all the needing to get done...is.
Done.


----------



## barryl

Ronnie T said:


> I swear, you're like a broken record......  I'm proud to say that there are few things that you and I agree on.
> And your concept of "rightly divide" is totally flawed, in my humble opinion.


----------



## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> Do you really believe James' letter cannot and does not apply to all Christians, simply because of verse 1?
> 
> Paul's letter Romans wasn't written to us.
> Revelation wasn't written to us.
> Galatians certainly wasn't written to us.
> Acts was written to an individual.
> 
> But they were all written to Christians.  And they all apply equally to you, whether you accept them or not.
> You can play this "rightly divide" game until Jesus returns, but you better soon come to terms with the fact that these books and letters hold God's will for you in your physical life right now.
> You cannot preach yourself into heaven.  Some place in life you gonna need to find some humility.



This one also.
.


----------



## barryl

Ronnie T said:


> Do you really believe James' letter cannot and does not apply to all Christians, simply because of verse 1?
> 
> Paul's letter Romans wasn't written to us.
> Revelation wasn't written to us.
> Galatians certainly wasn't written to us.
> Acts was written to an individual.
> 
> But they were all written to Christians.  And they all apply equally to you, whether you accept them or not.
> You can play this "rightly divide" game until Jesus returns, but you better soon come to terms with the fact that these books and letters hold God's will for you in your physical life right now.
> You cannot preach yourself into heaven.  Some place in life you gonna need to find some humility.


I was referencing James Ch. 2 which was mentioned in an earlier post which is a faith and Works chapter. 2 Tim. 2:15 "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not be ashamed" A word of advice, try the first part of the verse sometime. About finding "humility", I guess we "all" still need to work on that.


----------



## Ronnie T

James, in chapter 2, explains that in Christ there is no faith without it expressing itself outwardly.
Maybe because of the difference in living under the Old law, and living in Christ Jesus.  In Christ, one's rebirth affects the internal and the external(Romans 6).  Not by "Law" but by the change of a person's heart by Christ(Holy Spirit).

As for 2Tim 2:15  "Study to show thyself approved unto God".
Paul wrote those words to a man who had given himself to the sharing and spreading of the glorious message of Christ.
Actually, that verse is more accurately understood in the Greek to say:  "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
It's not so much about studying God's word or how a person studies God's word as it has to do with a person's willingness to take God's word as presented.  To keep himself and his church and the world's opinions out of God's word.  Timothy didn't actually have a gospel to study, instead, Timothy had Paul's instructions and the implanted word from the Holy Spirit.  The issue was to teach the word as received.  Just believe what it says.  All of it.  Don't interpret it, just believe and teach it.

Paul had these other things to say to Timothy:
2 Timothy 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering ... 
And  1 Timothy 5:21 I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality. 
And  2 Timothy 2:14 Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing ... 
And  1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.


----------



## Bama4me

Barryl... just a question for you since it seems you try to claim a lot of NT Scripture doesn't apply to us.  Exactly which NT passages DO apply to us... and why those and not others?  I asked this question of MWilliams and I never received an answer from him.  If you guys are going to continue to use this argument, how about letting the rest of us know which ones apply... instead of continuing to say "we've got to rightly divide the Scriptures" (which ineffectively makes your argument).


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> Barryl... just a question for you since it seems you try to claim a lot of NT Scripture doesn't apply to us.  Exactly which NT passages DO apply to us... and why those and not others?  I asked this question of MWilliams and I never received an answer from him.  If you guys are going to continue to use this argument, how about letting the rest of us know which ones apply... instead of continuing to say "we've got to rightly divide the Scriptures" (which ineffectively makes your argument).


It is a Scofield thing. Pretty much, only the Epistles apply to the Christian. Old Testament and the Gospels apply to the Israelites.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> It is a Scofield thing. Pretty much, only the Epistles apply to the Christian. Old Testament and the Gospels apply to the Israelites.



Really?  I gotta start gittin out more.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Really?  I gotta start gittin out more.


No, you gotta start "rightly dividing".


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> No, you gotta start "rightly dividing".



God bless you.  I think you might be right.  
I'm a work in progress.  
.


----------



## gordon 2

I have learned alot from this tread. Mainly that I was right from the get go. The conclusions of this tread are the estates of conciousness from were I started from when I read the first post. My ego is justified! I was right and never had a doubt that if I was a dog my fur would shine!

No but really! what I have learned that my ego absolutely did not know before this tread ( except through the smokey mirror dimly) is that one cannot preach hisself to heaven!---------- Now...if I was a rodent I could not pretend to be a squirrel for my hairless tail. My ego has been hammered to its honest shape.

What a forum! How fortunate we all are...even Myself.


PS... I think that in our studies of the devine we forget to study man equally and skip him out of the picture, as man, mostly in an effort to be living right in the Lord and often we make the error of attributing to the divine the seniors' politics, not on purpose, those ideas of the wise men playing checkers at the corner store.


----------



## Israel

I used to think "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day you eat of it you shall die."
Was for someone else also.
Then, something happened. 
I was found of the one who lived not for himself,  but for everyone else.
And to know him, I had to understand just who the everyone else is for whom he lives.

"Don't do that"...was my fondest echo from myself to everyone else.

Till the echo got so loud I could not bear it. My head throbbed, my ears and eyes bled.

Thankfully, there was finally silence in heaven for the space of about 1/2 hour.

And I saw the only one with power, honor, glory worthy to utter those words. 

And I also saw the mimic who had used me in his attempts to be what he is not, the one who first said "I WILL ascend".

I saw his throne in a place it ought not be, I saw the place from where he uttered such great and swelling words...whence he showed himself as God, sitting in that temple.

And like "everyone else" now...a man is brought to see, as everyone else already knew, he is not God.


----------



## M80

Bama4me said:


> Barryl... just a question for you since it seems you try to claim a lot of NT Scripture doesn't apply to us.  Exactly which NT passages DO apply to us... and why those and not others?  I asked this question of MWilliams and I never received an answer from him.  If you guys are going to continue to use this argument, how about letting the rest of us know which ones apply... instead of continuing to say "we've got to rightly divide the Scriptures" (which ineffectively makes your argument).



I've done gave you my answer. You didn't respond. 

This

The bible says all scripture is for reproof, for doctrine. It also says to rightly divide the word of god. I believe it all and it's all for our instruction. Saying that let me also say that we can't take certain scripture and run with it. I've have given countless differant scriptures for OSAS doctrine in this thread.


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> It is a Scofield thing. Pretty much, only the Epistles apply to the Christian. Old Testament and the Gospels apply to the Israelites.



You agree with it?


----------



## M80

gemcgrew said:


> It is a Scofield thing. Pretty much, only the Epistles apply to the Christian. Old Testament and the Gospels apply to the Israelites.



Sorry brother but I don't agree with you here on this one. Scoffield has a lot of good points but I use a Nelson. I don't agree with everything he says either. I study, pray, and let The Lord show me through much meditation on the subject. Don't get caught up with what a man says. Many people go with " we'll that's what my granddad always said". My papa has pastored churches for 60 years and I have found not all that he said while growing up was all right. I believe many people fall into the "The traditions of men"


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> I've done gave you my answer. You didn't respond.
> 
> This
> 
> The bible says all scripture is for reproof, for doctrine. It also says to rightly divide the word of god. I believe it all and it's all for our instruction. Saying that let me also say that we can't take certain scripture and run with it. I've have given countless differant scriptures for OSAS doctrine in this thread.



No... you're not consistent in your answer when you have discounted a passage from the gospel accounts I cited earlier by saying "that's before salvation".  To add to that, you yourself cited John 3:3.  

Again, which ones CAN be used in a discussion such as this and which ones CAN'T?  I'd like to know the list.


----------



## Israel

I may not be a prophet...but I see several of these in my future.
At least said shorter and better than I could.


----------



## M80

mwilliams80 said:


> So are you saying the flesh is saved. Jesus told Nicodemus we must be born again. If our soul is quickened(been made alive) it is born of god.
> John 3:16 "for god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Is Jesus lying there. If we have everlasting life how can we lose salvation and be cast in the lake of fire where the bible says this is the second death. If we could lose our salvation Jesus would be lying in John 3:16



I'll have to say the same thing to you. You have not replied to this one either bama4. We can't leave this out. I believe THE WHOLE BIBLE. IT'S ALL FOR REPROFF like I've done mention. I have no list to what I use or I don't use. I let The Holy Ghost guide me. I guess I'm like centerpin is. We interpret the scriptures differently you and me. You have said your saved, I am too. Praise The Lord. That's what really matters. The bible says to avoid vain babbling and foolish questions. I'm not going to convince you and your not going to convince me. I stand on what The Lord has shown me and have a deep peace about it my friend


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> You agree with it?


No, I think it is ridiculous.


----------



## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> Sorry brother but I don't agree with you here on this one. Scoffield has a lot of good points but I use a Nelson. I don't agree with everything he says either. I study, pray, and let The Lord show me through much meditation on the subject. Don't get caught up with what a man says. Many people go with " we'll that's what my granddad always said". My papa has pastored churches for 60 years and I have found not all that he said while growing up was all right. I believe many people fall into the "The traditions of men"


You don't agree that it is a Scofield position? I do not hold to the position. Not sure what you are disagreeing with.


----------



## gtparts

gemcgrew said:


> It is a Scofield thing. Pretty much, only the Epistles apply to the Christian. Old Testament and the Gospels apply to the Israelites.



Really? Wow! Can't tell you how much I appreciate the heads-up. Just got through tearing out the non-essential parts of the Word of God, as I am a Christian and not an Israelite. Now, to find a local church body that adheres to the New Rightly Divided Version. Oh, btw, just had the scraps rebound as the Old Lesser Relevant Version, to be placed on the shelf where it gathers dust.... just in case Scofield was wrong about this division.

Truthfully, does anyone here sincerely believe there is an intended division in purpose or utility within Scripture; targeted to two different groups of people, with no appreciable import and application to the other group? That would have to be the strangest view of God's Word I have ever heard.


----------



## M80

gemcgrew said:


> It is a Scofield thing. Pretty much, only the Epistles apply to the Christian. Old Testament and the Gospels apply to the Israelites.



The way you worded it I thought you was saying you believe this way and you stood by it. I understand now when you said it was ridiculous.


----------



## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> The way you worded it I thought you was saying you believe this way and you stood by it. I understand now when you said it was ridiculous.


I learned a valuable lesson today. Don't answer for someone else without stating your position.


----------



## centerpin fan

gtparts said:


> Truthfully, does anyone here sincerely believe there is an intended division in purpose or utility within Scripture; targeted to two different groups of people, with no appreciable import and application to the other group? That would have to be the strangest view of God's Word I have ever heard.



Agreed.


----------



## Ronnie T

gtparts said:


> Really? Wow! Can't tell you how much I appreciate the heads-up. Just got through tearing out the non-essential parts of the Word of God, as I am a Christian and not an Israelite. Now, to find a local church body that adheres to the New Rightly Divided Version. Oh, btw, just had the scraps rebound as the Old Lesser Relevant Version, to be placed on the shelf where it gathers dust.... just in case Scofield was wrong about this division.



Me to.

 

I wonder what's going through the Lord's mind as he looks at all this?

I'm afraid in many ways the church today is like Israel wondering in the wilderness.
Stumbling over our own brains, tongues, and index fingers.
Trying to make a better pie, or a better car, or a better church.
Reading everything we can get our hands on..... except what God gave us.

Here, is seems we're like my 10 year old grand son who spends so much time making and changing the rules that he can't seem to enjoy playing a simple game of one on one basketball with his grandpa.


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> The sermon on the mount was before Jesus died on the cross, thus there was no salvation yet



I'm referring to this post you made earlier.  You totally discount the teachings of Jesus in the SOTM.  Yet, in later posts, you cite John 3:3 and John 3:16.  Why are the two passages in John "allowable" in this discussion, but the material from the SOTM is not?  ALL THREE teachings were written "before salvation".  Why the inconsistency?

In answer to your question about the "flesh/soul", what you're doing is simply looking at a select group of verses.  You're not looking at the total picture that the NT presents on the subject.  I answered your question earlier when I cited both Ezekiel 18:20 and James 5:19-20.  Ezekiel 18:20 says the SOUL that sins will die... James 5:19-20 states the SOUL of one who wandered from the truth (a Christian) was saved from death.  Your assertion was that a soul is not able to sin... yet Scripture plainly says the opposite.

Your representation of John 3:3-8 seems to be bit flawed in light of the context.  When Jesus told Nicodemas he must be "born again", Nicodemas thought He referred to being born physically (going back in his mother's womb).  Jesus clarified He was discussing a "spiritual birth"... thus the statement in verse 6.  The word "flesh" often means "originating from this world"... and it's used in this case here.

Again, you can cite John 3:16 alone... but Jesus also said in John 8:31-32 that being His disciple was a result of "abiding in His word".  James 5:19-20 is talking about a person who had done such... but then wandered from it.  God stated that such a person who brought back would be saved from death.

I agree that we're not going to convince one another, but I'm not writing these things for your benefit alone.  There are people reading this thread who will weigh evidence that is presented... and make a decision based on what is presented.   

Seemingly, you speak from one who is an adherent to Calvinism... it's a belief system which places responsibility and action on God's shoulders and little (if any) on the individual.  I believe the scheme of redemption includes the actions of God (grace) and the actions of man (faith).  Your system of belief says "God shows me these things"... my belief system says "God's word teaches these things". 

It's two totally different approaches which lead to totally different conclusions on many biblical subjects.  Yes, "vain babbling" and "foolish questions" are warned against in Scripture... but a Christian is also told to be ready to give answer for his/her belief system (1 Peter 3:15) and "test everything" to see if it's from God (1 Thessalonians 5:21).  I don't believe discussion in this thread fits your characterization of it (vain babbling/foolish questions).


----------



## Bama4me

gtparts said:


> Really? Wow! Can't tell you how much I appreciate the heads-up. Just got through tearing out the non-essential parts of the Word of God, as I am a Christian and not an Israelite. Now, to find a local church body that adheres to the New Rightly Divided Version. Oh, btw, just had the scraps rebound as the Old Lesser Relevant Version, to be placed on the shelf where it gathers dust.... just in case Scofield was wrong about this division.
> 
> Truthfully, does anyone here sincerely believe there is an intended division in purpose or utility within Scripture; targeted to two different groups of people, with no appreciable import and application to the other group? That would have to be the strangest view of God's Word I have ever heard.



Agreed.


----------



## gemcgrew

gtparts said:


> That would have to be the strangest view of God's Word I have ever heard.


I should not have answered for barryl, but he can straighten it out if I misrepresented. I attended a "Christian" school in a dispensationalist church. If you didn't use a Scofield Study Bible, you were under suspicion.


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> Seemingly, you speak from one who is an adherent to Calvinism... it's a belief system which places responsibility and action on God's shoulders and little (if any) on the individual.


----------



## Israel

If I created me, I am responsible for me.
If it was all out of "my hands" so to speak, then whoever started the whole thing is the responsible one.

Now, you will rightly say, brother, you don't know how much of self remains, that deluded thing that thinks it is able to do anything other than be submitted to the working of the word of God. The thing that still wants to be the Creator.

And that is why I need you. That is why you are God's gift to me. To tell and show me the Word of God, alive and powerful. That all would be submitted.
And that together we may say "we are what we are, by the grace of God." (with no additives)


In other words...unadulterated.


----------



## M80

Bama4me said:


> I'm referring to this post you made earlier.  You totally discount the teachings of Jesus in the SOTM.  Yet, in later posts, you cite John 3:3 and John 3:16.  Why are the two passages in John "allowable" in this discussion, but the material from the SOTM is not?  ALL THREE teachings were written "before salvation".  Why the inconsistency?
> 
> In answer to your question about the "flesh/soul", what you're doing is simply looking at a select group of verses.  You're not looking at the total picture that the NT presents on the subject.  I answered your question earlier when I cited both Ezekiel 18:20 and James 5:19-20.  Ezekiel 18:20 says the SOUL that sins will die... James 5:19-20 states the SOUL of one who wandered from the truth (a Christian) was saved from death.  Your assertion was that a soul is not able to sin... yet Scripture plainly says the opposite.
> 
> Your representation of John 3:3-8 seems to be bit flawed in light of the context.  When Jesus told Nicodemas he must be "born again", Nicodemas thought He referred to being born physically (going back in his mother's womb).  Jesus clarified He was discussing a "spiritual birth"... thus the statement in verse 6.  The word "flesh" often means "originating from this world"... and it's used in this case here.
> 
> Again, you can cite John 3:16 alone... but Jesus also said in John 8:31-32 that being His disciple was a result of "abiding in His word".  James 5:19-20 is talking about a person who had done such... but then wandered from it.  God stated that such a person who brought back would be saved from death.
> 
> I agree that we're not going to convince one another, but I'm not writing these things for your benefit alone.  There are people reading this thread who will weigh evidence that is presented... and make a decision based on what is presented.
> 
> Seemingly, you speak from one who is an adherent to Calvinism... it's a belief system which places responsibility and action on God's shoulders and little (if any) on the individual.  I believe the scheme of redemption includes the actions of God (grace) and the actions of man (faith).  Your system of belief says "God shows me these things"... my belief system says "God's word teaches these things".
> 
> It's two totally different approaches which lead to totally different conclusions on many biblical subjects.  Yes, "vain babbling" and "foolish questions" are warned against in Scripture... but a Christian is also told to be ready to give answer for his/her belief system (1 Peter 3:15) and "test everything" to see if it's from God (1 Thessalonians 5:21).  I don't believe discussion in this thread fits your characterization of it (vain babbling/foolish questions).



Sir I sure don't hope you think I believe in calvanism. The bible says whosever calls upon the name of The Lord shall be saved. Also for god sent not his son into the world to codemn the world but that the world through him might be saved. It's a whosever will salvation. I'm about to leave work and take my wife for a date. I'll come back and talk some more on what you mentioned in all this


----------



## M80

Bama4me. Tell me how one gets saved and who was it that made salvation for us. I want to hear from y'all who don't believe OSAS. I need to hear this first the basics


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> Sir I sure don't hope you think I believe in calvanism. The bible says whosever calls upon the name of The Lord shall be saved. Also for god sent not his son into the world to codemn the world but that the world through him might be saved. It's a whosever will salvation. I'm about to leave work and take my wife for a date. I'll come back and talk some more on what you mentioned in all this



Sorry if I had it pegged wrong... although many who are in the OSAS camp also subscribe to other beliefs under the "Calvinism umbrella" (total depravity, irresistible grace, etc.).


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> Bama4me. Tell me how one gets saved and who was it that made salvation for us. I want to hear from y'all who don't believe OSAS. I need to hear this first the basics



Tell you what... if you'll answer my question about your perceived inconsistencies over the usage of John 3 and address the "soul being able to sin" question, I'll be more than happy to go back to the start.  Otherwise, we are beginning an entirely different line of discussion.


----------



## M80

About to leave the house for a while brother. I'll be more than glad to go over this but how you get saved has a lot to do with it


----------



## gemcgrew

Israel said:


> If I created me, I am responsible for me.
> If it was all out of "my hands" so to speak, then whoever started the whole thing is the responsible one.


Why is "In the beginning God" so offensive to us? Why was Adam prevented from eating fruit from the tree of life? Could it be to teach Adam that there is no hope but Christ? Adam was prevented from saving himself by his own hands, by his own doings. By our nature, is there anything we are more apt to do than to seek life anywhere but Christ?


----------



## M80

Israel said:


> If I created me, I am responsible for me.
> If it was all out of "my hands" so to speak, then whoever started the whole thing is the responsible one.
> 
> Now, you will rightly say, brother, you don't know how much of self remains, that deluded thing that thinks it is able to do anything other than be submitted to the working of the word of God. The thing that still wants to be the Creator.
> 
> And that is why I need you. That is why you are God's gift to me. To tell and show me the Word of God, alive and powerful. That all would be submitted.
> And that together we may say "we are what we are, by the grace of God." (with no additives)
> 
> 
> In other words...unadulterated.



I've never quoted nothing from you but I like what you said


----------



## Israel

gemcgrew said:


> Why is "In the beginning God" so offensive to us? Why was Adam prevented from eating fruit from the tree of life? Could it be to teach Adam that there is no hope but Christ? Adam was prevented from saving himself by his own hands, by his own doings. By our nature, is there anything we are more apt to do than to seek life anywhere but Christ?



I am thinking you mean "wasn't"?

I am thinking that the making of "something" to have fellowship with you...to be in ones image and likeness...well, for me it's kinda like that evil robot that gets destroyed when it is fed a question that is self contradictory in its answer...so that the smoke comes pouring out its ears "cannot compute...cannot compute...cannn.....not   comp......ute.

To be made in no less the image and likeness OF GOD!

See my problem?
I mean...OK...give me a million years...and maybe I can make a motorized roller skate that will bring me a beer. But...something that "I" could relate to EQUALLY?"

OK OK, I know some of you are thinking a motorized roller skate would be a step above my status, already.
But do you see the issue? To "make" something equal to ones self...well...it's just beyond my understanding.

Now...when we consider that the maker of man is no less than the One who has being in himself...ok...in one sense it makes it easy (HE can do ANYTHING)...but the very thing that makes it easy for him blows my fuses...because we are made to be no less than LIKE him!.
We are not talking about SIRI here...but a thing MADE...to be like the ONE...NOT MADE!

So, to start with, if nothing else...it's a very tall order.

So animated dirt is to go from talking mud...to nothing less than a SON.

What if we are finding out that this GODHEAD, for lack of a better word...ALREADY exists in a familial relationship with HIMSELF? And it is then no small wonder that we too, should experience the "shadow" of family here...even while mud. But we don't know what it means to be "FAMILY" in the God sense?

And so, the true God...who is, and always has been, "FAMILY" in himself..who is a son who never presumes against the Father, (BUT IS FREE), A FATHER whose delight is always found in HIS SON, and never forms "LAW" against him...because he is of HIM...of HIMSELF

Well...before I go too far in presumption...if the mud had to KNOW, in order to be a full grown son...what the SON already knows is the delight of the Father's heart...that is MERCY...and had to know it by RECEIVING IT (because there is ONE thing that mercy can never be...which is FORCED) had to come to a place where it is needed...to receive it?

In order to come there...this mud had to be created to choose to be "NOT" like God, in perfect liberty...(AS GOD IS FREE)...and tasting the result of being NOT like God...and coming to the place where the liberty that he was allowed, but with wrong execution, is now FREELY again displayed to him in through THE SON who, acting in perfect liberty...but now, as a demonstration of MERCY, shows us...BY THE RESURRECTION...the "PERFECT" consequence of perfect liberty. So that we may SEE...PERFECT liberty is for the purpose of showing MERCY, and in that, not seeking to put forth our own hand to TRY to be like the One in whose image and likeness we are already made...and this...

WHEN FAITH IS REVEALED.

Every child...though never less than a child...learns it's place in the family...and is never "less" loved than the firstborn. But no child ever confuses itself with being the firstborn...when a family is in order.

I would rather, now, have the love of my elder brother...than seek to take his place...and thereby...deny him.
The conundrum of worship and adoration...while coveting the position of the object of that worship...is PERFECTLY resolved by the SONS love of us.

May I, and we all...see how much this One who gave himself for us...sits with us now, at the table of HIS FATHER, OUR FATHER, HIS GOD...OUR GOD...so that NONE is made to feel less than all we truly ARE...HIS OWN.


MERCY PERSISTS...even after the thing that was allowed its use for a time to show us our need of it...is LONG GONE.

And so we shall be seemly with one another. Former things are passed away.


----------



## gemcgrew

Israel said:


> I am thinking you mean "wasn't"?



"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

I am rereading the rest of your post. Something is odd there but I am having difficulty placing my finger on it. Perhaps it is just the way I am reading it.


----------



## Israel

gemcgrew said:


> "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
> 
> I am rereading the rest of your post. Something is odd there but I am having difficulty placing my finger on it. Perhaps it is just the way I am reading it.




No, my bad...misread...foolishly read "tree of knowledge of good and evil..." when you clearly said Tree of life...sorry. 

As to the rest, I consider this verse strongly when faced with matters of "why did God allow sin?"

Rom_11:32  For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 

The previous verses:

Rom 11:30  For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 
Rom 11:31  Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 


To me, as I believe I am learning, and hope to know more...is that there is something so wonderful about showing mercy, that the Lord, in his infinite grace, did not want us to fall short of knowing. And sharing that joy with him, in it.


----------



## M80

Bama4me said:


> Tell you what... if you'll answer my question about your perceived inconsistencies over the usage of John 3 and address the "soul being able to sin" question, I'll be more than happy to go back to the start.  Otherwise, we are beginning an entirely different line of discussion.



I don't know what you mean about inconsistance on John 3. I see it exactly like it reads. I understand where your coming from cause it was before salvation and I'm using it for salvation. Jesus preached and shared why he was here on this earth. He witnessed to Nicodemus. It never said he was saved in John 3. He is later mentioned standing for Jesus and then at the burial. Salvation where we are washed in the blood is after Jesus was raised from the dead. Remember in John 20 22 he said receive he the Holy Ghost. We don't receive the Holy Ghost till we are saved, after Jesus was raised. 

The soul in Ezekiel is referring to a person. When Jesus breathed into the nostrils of Adam he became a living soul(person). I might be wrong about the soul sinning it might can looking at in your views, but the inner man cannot. KJV 1st John 3:9.  Whosever is born of God doth not commit sin;for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of god. Plain and simple. Very easy to understand that to me. We are born again by Jesus, he does the work to cleanse us, thus what he has done is holy and can not sin.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Maybe man is triune with spirit, soul, & body. Then we could place the living soul as being more of a part of the body.
I don't know or understand all about John 3:9 or if that takes away our requirement to follow God's commands or will. I don't believe it does. Either way you look at it Christians can and do sin and God doesn't like it.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Reading through John 3 it appears it concerns a life of sin vs  sin.
John 3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

Gills commentary: sinneth not; not that he has no sin in him, or lives without sin, but he does not live in sin, nor give up himself to a vicious course of life; for this would be inconsistent with his dwelling in Christ, and enjoying communion with him: 

whosoever sinneth; which is not to be understood of a single action, but of a course of sinning: 

John 3:7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.
(how could a Christian be lead astray if he didn't sin?)

John 3:8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God's child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.
(Jesus came to destroy the devil's work so how come we still have "children of the devil?")


----------



## Artfuldodger

If you read on in John it turns to Love. 
John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

A common lesson in the New Testament teaches that sins like hatred or lust are the same as murder or adultery.


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> Reading through John 3 it appears it concerns a life of sin vs  sin.
> John 3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
> 
> Gills commentary: sinneth not; not that he has no sin in him, or lives without sin, but he does not live in sin, nor give up himself to a vicious course of life; for this would be inconsistent with his dwelling in Christ, and enjoying communion with him:
> 
> whosoever sinneth; which is not to be understood of a single action, but of a course of sinning:
> 
> John 3:7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.
> (how could a Christian be lead astray if he didn't sin?)
> 
> John 3:8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God's child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.
> (Jesus came to destroy the devil's work so how come we still have "children of the devil?")



I'm trying to find the right way to word this but my bible states these verses differant so I believe them, If I'm allowed to say that. Let me ask you. If my wife, son and daughter got killed in a car wreck today and I lost my mind and went crazy, started not actinglike a Christian and gave up my church. If I was to die, would I go to he11. I'm glad even with ale timers disease when we forget our minds and say things crazy and sin The Lord doesn't forget us cause its not what we do in the flesh. It's cause the blood was applied


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## M80

Let me also say I believe we should do our best to live the best Christian( Christ like) life we can.  The bible says and be not conformed to the world,  also, wherefore come out from amongst them and be he differant. The bible says we are the salt of the earth and also to to so let your lights shine.


----------



## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> I'm trying to find the right way to word this but my bible states these verses differant so I believe them, If I'm allowed to say that. Let me ask you. If my wife, son and daughter got killed in a car wreck today and I lost my mind and went crazy, started not actinglike a Christian and gave up my church. If I was to die, would I go to he11. I'm glad even with ale timers disease when we forget our minds and say things crazy and sin The Lord doesn't forget us cause its not what we do in the flesh. It's cause the blood was applied



I don't believe anyone is in a position to answer that question in regard to anyone.
All I'm able to do is read and remember what the Bible's writers teach and encourage.
Christianity isn't about living my whole life defending my imperfections; it about living for Christ and in His forgiveness.


----------



## M80

Ronnie T said:


> I don't believe anyone is in a position to answer that question in regard to anyone.
> All I'm able to do is read and remember what the Bible's writers teach and encourage.
> Christianity isn't about living my whole life defending my imperfections; it about living for Christ and in His forgiveness.



But according to the way y'all believe I would be practicing sin and would lose my salvation


----------



## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> But according to the way y'all believe I would be practicing sin and would lose my salvation



Do you agree or disagree with the following statement?



centerpin fan said:


> I believe if I renounce God, embrace Satan, and begin pimping out underage girls to finance my heroin habit, I will lose my salvation.


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> I'm trying to find the right way to word this but my bible states these verses differant so I believe them, If I'm allowed to say that. Let me ask you. If my wife, son and daughter got killed in a car wreck today and I lost my mind and went crazy, started not actinglike a Christian and gave up my church. If I was to die, would I go to he11. I'm glad even with ale timers disease when we forget our minds and say things crazy and sin The Lord doesn't forget us cause its not what we do in the flesh. It's cause the blood was applied



The answer to that question is between you and God and what is in your heart. Christianity is way more spiritual than physical.


----------



## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> I'm trying to find the right way to word this but my bible states these verses differant so I believe them, If I'm allowed to say that. Let me ask you. If my wife, son and daughter got killed in a car wreck today and I lost my mind and went crazy, started not actinglike a Christian and gave up my church. If I was to die, would I go to he11. I'm glad even with ale timers disease when we forget our minds and say things crazy and sin The Lord doesn't forget us cause its not what we do in the flesh. It's cause the blood was applied





Ronnie T said:


> I don't believe anyone is in a position to answer that question in regard to anyone.
> All I'm able to do is read and remember what the Bible's writers teach and encourage.
> Christianity isn't about living my whole life defending my imperfections; it about living for Christ and in His forgiveness.





mwilliams80 said:


> But according to the way y'all believe I would be practicing sin and would lose my salvation



I still can't answer that question.  But I think the Bible holds proof that if you left the church, left Christ, left the faith, left your love of Christ, purposely turned away from Christ, you are in a very dangerous position.
.
Frankly, your church should be daily ministering to you while in that position.

I've seen people leave the church, and Christ, over a horrible family issue.  And I've seen people drawn even closer to Christ while enduring a catastrophe.
I wonder what the difference is?
Any thoughts?


----------



## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> I've seen people leave the church, and Christ, over a horrible family issue.  And I've seen people drawn even closer to Christ while enduring a catastrophe.
> I wonder what the difference is?
> Any thoughts?




The difference is where they place blame. Some people choose to blame God for catastrophes, others lean on Him through it...and I believe this decision is made by the individuals wisdom, which comes from the fear of God.....Where does the fear come from?


----------



## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> The difference is where they place blame. Some people choose to blame God for catastrophes, others lean on Him through it...and I believe this decision is made by the individuals wisdom, which comes from the fear of God.....Where does the fear come from?



In Christ, fear becomes love.  "
1 John 4:17-19 By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. 19 We love, because He first loved us.

Some faith is tossed about by the waves.  Or blown and uprooted by the wind.  But some faith holds on with all it's might to that which it trusts the most.

Who can know the difference.  And when does faith go black.  I can't know that.


----------



## headbust

Artfuldodger said:


> You just contradicted yourself. Well I'm confused. Maybe those verses where Jesus said "no one can come to me" doesn't mean salvation.
> Maybe when we hear the story of Jesus, that is God's calling. When the preacher is giving the benediction, that is God calling you through the preacher.


absolute truth right there


----------



## JB0704

hobbs27 said:


> The difference is where they place blame. Some people choose to blame God for catastrophes, others lean on Him through it.



^^^^This.


----------



## Israel

Maybe those people leave the Lord (so to speak)...so we can pray for them...wait for them...understand their confusion and perhaps bitterness...and hold out hope for them...when they seem to be rejecting all and the only hope there is?

And maybe then...show ourselves to be the children of our Father in heaven?


What if God allows the straw that breaks the camel's back...so that we can pray for the seeming hoplessness of the camel's condition...and get wonderfully surprised at the appearance of Jesus with the result...when the camel gets up?

I am losing my sureness of the need to know why others do what they do...when I seem to be getting such obvious instructions regarding what I am to be about.

Really...I used to know why everyone did everything! Now...not so much.

Maybe I didn't know the one thing I needed to know...why "I" did anything...surely including actively pursuing trying to be sure why everyone  did anything. Maybe my calculations came from a torture chamber...from a place of vulnerability and pain...and that if I had everything "nailed down"...nothing could shift unknowingly...and hurt me some more? If I had the key to folks motives...I could sure try to manipulate them.
Maybe I feared pain...more than the I feared the Lord? And who knows...maybe I still do...maybe someday I will be a disciple. God knows.

What if someone like me were to hear one day..."The reason I made you so weak, so seemingly screwed up...was that so my other children would love you by praying for you...and in that...they got to see more of me...was that enough of a job I gave you...was that enough for me to make you?"

I wonder if Peter ever rolls his eyes and says "OH, no, not another "Peter's Denial Sermon, Lord"...or does he say "Wow...you sure made that whole thing work good...you're still amazing, Jesus".

And I can't help but wonder also if he says "Look, Lord...some of them still think they are different than me...but I know you got that covered, too..."

Cause no matter what it takes for us to find out about ourselves...that brings us to repentance to lead us to light...I trust...we will all soon find...well worth it.


----------



## M80

centerpin fan said:


> Do you agree or disagree with the following statement?



No I don't agree. Why would someone that truly was born again do that. If he/she did act the way you said The Lord would go ahead and take them out cause they are profiting The Lord none. We are the bride of Christ and represent him in this world. When my wife goes out shopping I expect her to dress appropriately cause if she don't she brings reproach on me. Are we still married if she don't, of course. 

KJV. 1st Corinthians 6:19,20.  "What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which he have of God, and Ye are not your own?  For Ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, WHICH ARE GODS. 
We do not own ourselves. Jesus bought us with his blood. He owns us. Example:  if I buy a dog from a pup, raise him, love him, give him all he needs he might one day growl and try to bite me. He might even run away from home but I still purchased him and he belongs to me.


----------



## M80

Ronnie T said:


> I still can't answer that question.  But I think the Bible holds proof that if you left the church, left Christ, left the faith, left your love of Christ, purposely turned away from Christ, you are in a very dangerous position.
> .
> Frankly, your church should be daily ministering to you while in that position.
> 
> I've seen people leave the church, and Christ, over a horrible family issue.  And I've seen people drawn even closer to Christ while enduring a catastrophe.
> I wonder what the difference is?
> Any thoughts?



I agree with you. Trust in The Lord with all thine heart and lean not to thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him and he shall direct thy path. 

I believe when Christians do trust him they  pull close to him in hard times. Christians that eat the meat of the word. It the babes in Christ that still desire the milk that tend to leave when crises happen.


----------



## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> No I don't agree. Why would someone that truly was born again do that. If he/she did act the way you said The Lord would go ahead and take them out cause they are profiting The Lord none. We are the bride of Christ and represent him in this world. When my wife goes out shopping I expect her to dress appropriately cause if she don't she brings reproach on me. Are we still married if she don't, of course.
> 
> KJV. 1st Corinthians 6:19,20.  "What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which he have of God, and Ye are not your own?  For Ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, WHICH ARE GODS.
> We do not own ourselves. Jesus bought us with his blood. He owns us. Example:  if I buy a dog from a pup, raise him, love him, give him all he needs he might one day growl and try to bite me. He might even run away from home but I still purchased him and he belongs to me.



The real answer to your first question is found in Romans 6.  There Paul told Roman Christians why they were content to keep on sinning.

They didn't understand their new birth.

1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin...........................................................................................................................................................12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> I don't know what you mean about inconsistance on John 3. I see it exactly like it reads. I understand where your coming from cause it was before salvation and I'm using it for salvation. Jesus preached and shared why he was here on this earth. He witnessed to Nicodemus. It never said he was saved in John 3. He is later mentioned standing for Jesus and then at the burial. Salvation where we are washed in the blood is after Jesus was raised from the dead. Remember in John 20 22 he said receive he the Holy Ghost. We don't receive the Holy Ghost till we are saved, after Jesus was raised.
> 
> The soul in Ezekiel is referring to a person. When Jesus breathed into the nostrils of Adam he became a living soul(person). I might be wrong about the soul sinning it might can looking at in your views, but the inner man cannot. KJV 1st John 3:9.  Whosever is born of God doth not commit sin;for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of god. Plain and simple. Very easy to understand that to me. We are born again by Jesus, he does the work to cleanse us, thus what he has done is holy and can not sin.



You "disqualified" the Sermon on the Mount from the discussion because it was "before salvation."  Yet, you used John 3:4 to support your argument.  If you're going to eliminate Jesus' teachings in the Sermon on the Mount on the grounds of "it was before salvation", you HAVE to do the same thing with John 3:4 also.  That's failing to be consistent - you can't "have you cake and eat it too".

I don't think I need to cover the ground Art covered earlier about 1 John 3... the Greek wording does not support the KJV translation in that passage ("cannot sin").  Whether it is your favorite translation or not, all translations contain some passages that fail to accurately represent the Greek.  This is one of the places it's found in the KJV.

So what you're saying about the soul idea I pointed out from Ezekiel and James is that "soul" in those two verses doesn't really mean "one's soul"?  I'm lazy tonight and won't take the time to research the Hebrew term, but the term "soul" in James 5:20 is the same Greek word rendered "soul" in Matthew 10:28 - And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -.  According to Jesus, one's soul is his/her "inner person"... He plainly distinguished between it and the fleshly body here.


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## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> No I don't agree. Why would someone that truly was born again do that.



First of all, that is an extreme example.  I don't know anyone like that.  However, I know a LOT of people who have turned their backs on God.  The minister I mentioned previously is one.  Another friend of mine became an atheist and totally renounced God and the Bible.  I could name dozens of others who just basically said, "I'm done with this" and left the church.  As to why anybody would do this, the parable of the sower gives several reasons.




mwilliams80 said:


> No I don't agree. Why would someone that truly was born again do that. If he/she did act the way you said The Lord would go ahead and take them out cause they are profiting The Lord none.



I'll say!

What scripture says that God will "take them out"?


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## panfried0419

Suicide


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## M80

centerpin fan said:


> First of all, that is an extreme example.  I don't know anyone like that.  However, I know a LOT of people who have turned their backs on God.  The minister I mentioned previously is one.  Another friend of mine became an atheist and totally renounced God and the Bible.  I could name dozens of others who just basically said, "I'm done with this" and left the church.  As to why anybody would do this, the parable of the sower gives several reasons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll say!
> 
> What scripture says that God will "take them out"?



My bad centerpin. I done something I shouldn't have done. Preached my conviction here on this one. I shoulda keep my mouth shut. I don't have scripture, just conviction


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> I was looking at verses from the Sermon on the Mount and it appears to be about obedience instead of faith & grace:
> 
> Matt 3:10  "And the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. (faith or fruit?)
> 
> Matt 10:28
> 28	"And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in he!!.
> Special instructions given to the 12 disciples.  Why would Jesus tell the 12 to "fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in he!!  if OSAS is true?
> 
> Matt 12:36-37
> 36	"And I say to you, that every careless word that men shall speak, they shall render account for it in the day of judgment.
> 37	"For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned."  (condemned?)
> 
> 
> Matt 5:13 "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how will it be made salty {again}  It is good for nothing anymore, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.
> (grace doesn't keep us from being thrown out)
> 
> Matt 5:22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever shall say to his brother, 'Raca,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty {enough to go} into the fiery he!!. (no mention of faith)
> 
> Matt 5:29-30
> 29	"And if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into he!!.
> 30	"And if your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into he!1.
> (why would Jesus say this if salvation was by grace & faith?
> 
> Matt 6:14-15
> 14	"For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
> 15	"But if you do not forgive men, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
> (no mention of faith & grace)



Again my bible states these a little differant. I do not discontinue any of the bible. I believe all of this bama4me. I guess when I said this was before salvation you misunderstood what I was saying, I don't know, but none of these verses say we will lose our salvation.


----------



## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> My bad centerpin. I done something I shouldn't have done. Preached my conviction here on this one. I shoulda keep my mouth shut. I don't have scripture, just conviction


This is easy to do and we all have done it. I am familiar with a few verses that are used to support your conviction. In the matter of salvation, if Christ did not accomplish for us what we could not accomplish for ourselves, we are done, all of us.

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."


----------



## Artfuldodger

I've read verses in the Bible where it appears Christians can't sin. I've read verses where it appears we can't fall. Usually right after those verses are the ones that say we can fall or sin. That we must remain steadfast. That we must not do evil. That we must obey God. We can't just read a few verses without reading the ones that follow with the warnings.

James 1:12 - Blessed [is] the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
(can Christians be tempted?)

2 Corinthians 11:3 - But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
(why did Paul fear?)

2 Peter 2:20-22 - For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
(how could they again become entangled?)

1 Timothy 4:16 - Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
(why take heed?)


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I've read verses in the Bible where it appears Christians can't sin. I've read verses where it appears we can't fall. Usually right after those verses are the ones that say we can fall or sin. That we must remain steadfast. That we must not do evil. That we must obey God.



Our flesh and carnal bodies...outward man.  Can and does sin. It also falls short of the glory of God and is deserving of he!!. 
 Our born again soul which has been sanctified by the blood of Christ through regeneration...inward man... Is not of this world and cannot sin...and will not fall.

Just my opinion .


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> Again my bible states these a little differant. I do not discontinue any of the bible. I believe all of this bama4me. I guess when I said this was before salvation you misunderstood what I was saying, I don't know, but none of these verses say we will lose our salvation.



Ok... this seems to be a normal line of reasoning for you.  So I'll ask you a question.

In Acts 2:40, Peter told unbelievers "Save yourselves from this crooked generation."  In Philippians 2:12, Paul told the brethren at Philippi to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."  Using the reasoning that you give, I can say "I don't see anything ANYTHING in these verses that indicate God has anything to do with our salvation."  Does this mean God has nothing to do with our salvation?  

An essential principle in biblical interpretation is to examine ALL that the bible says about a subject... not just rely upon one passage to the exclusion of everything else.  John 3:16, 1 Peter 3:9-10, etc. may not plainly state a person could loose his/her salvation, but there are many others which DO claim that very thing.

In all the posts you've made, you have yet to answer NT passages that me, Art, and Ronnie have given.  As an example, I mentioned earlier in the thread that Galatians 5:1-4 clearly teaches that Christians who try to bind the practice of circumcision into NT salvation are "severed from Christ" and "fallen from grace" (verse 4).  How can one be "severed" when he wasn't first "connected"... how can one "fallen" when he wasn't "standing"?  You can't just answer that with John 3:16 or any other passage... you have to give a fair explanation of how Galatians 5:1-4 somehow doesn't mean what it says.  Otherwise, the bible contradicts itself... and must not be from God.


----------



## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> Our flesh and carnal bodies...outward man.  Can and does sin. It also falls short of the glory of God and is deserving of he!!.
> Our born again soul which has been sanctified by the blood of Christ through regeneration...inward man... Is not of this world and cannot sin...and will not fall.
> 
> Just my opinion .



What about Ezekiel 18:20 and James 5:19-20?  The word soul is used in reference to both sin and death.


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> Again my bible states these a little differant. I do not discontinue any of the bible. I believe all of this bama4me. I guess when I said this was before salvation you misunderstood what I was saying, I don't know, but none of these verses say we will lose our salvation.



Not going to necessarily answer for Art, but all of those passage allude to someone loosing salvation.  An example is found in 1 John 1:7-10.  If we "walk in the light", we're cleansed by the blood of Jesus.  If you read a few verses later, there's another conditional statement given - "if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins".

Neither of these verses, at surface level, seem to teach a Christian can loose his/her salvation.  However, the inverse of the teaching is true also.  If we DON'T walk in the light", we're NOT cleansed by the blood of Jesus... if we DON'T confess our sins, we won't be forgiven.

1 John was not written to nonbelievers... it was addressed to Christians.  These were "children in the faith" to John (2:1)... people who could "know they had eternal life" (5:13)... people who are "from God" (5:19).  Thus, when you read everything in context, John taught that believers could lose their salvation... IF they failed to meet the criteria stated in verses like 1:7 and 1:9.


----------



## M80

Bama4me said:


> What about Ezekiel 18:20 and James 5:19-20?  The word soul is used in reference to both sin and death.



Does not everyone that is alive have a soul even the lost. Our soul is what is born again at salvation. That reborn soul can't sin. 

The whole differance between us is that y'all believe you own your salvation and have worked for it. We believe Christ blood purchased us and we have accepted him into our hearts, thus he is the one in control, not us, the bible says there is none good, no not one. Y'all keep saying you should live right to keep it. It's not mine to keep, it's The Lord. He said nobody could pluck us from his hand, and not to mention his fathers hand. That's a double seal. It's not me grasping his hand and struggling to hold on. It's him holding me. Ephesians says Not of works lest any should boast. By what you are saying his blood isn't good enough for all my sins. His blood cleanses all our sins, even future sins. Not of works- if it was up to us we could get the glory and say cause I've been good he let me keep my salvation. It is the gift of god. A gift means someone gives us something. I guess we are going to just keep going in circles on this like all the other threads that have discussed this subject


----------



## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> The whole differance between us is that y'all believe you own your salvation and have worked for it.



I don't believe that and have never met anybody on "my side" who believes that.


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> In all the posts you've made, you have yet to answer NT passages that me, Art, and Ronnie have given.  As an example, I mentioned earlier in the thread that Galatians 5:1-4 clearly teaches that Christians who try to bind the practice of circumcision into NT salvation are "severed from Christ" and "fallen from grace" (verse 4).  How can one be "severed" when he wasn't first "connected"... how can one "fallen" when he wasn't "standing"?  You can't just answer that with John 3:16 or any other passage... you have to give a fair explanation of how Galatians 5:1-4 somehow doesn't mean what it says.  Otherwise, the bible contradicts itself... and must not be from God.


Why do you, Art and Ronnie keep promoting a works salvation, while denying it is a works salvation? Why take a man who believes the sufficiency of Christ and try to bind him with works? If you rely on Christ plus something else, you have not Christ. That is Paul's warning.


----------



## Ronnie T

I've never read a chapter of the Gospel that told me, as a Christian, I cannot sin.

I've never read a chapter of the Gospel that told me, as a Christian, if I commit an outward sin I get the green light because that sin doesn't touch or affect the inner me.

I don't believe there's such a thing as an 'outward only' sin.
When I sin, I sinned.  And I know it.

I invite you to please look at the verses from Romans 6 that I posted last night.  

It says:  "If you've been born again, then clean your life up!"
"God's not gonna do it for you!"  "God has given you the tools to destroy satan in your life!"


----------



## Ronnie T

Quote:
Originally Posted by mwilliams80 View Post 
The whole differance between us is that y'all believe you own your salvation and have worked for it. 





centerpin fan said:


> I don't believe that and have never met anybody on "my side" who believes that.



Me neither.  I only hear that from the "other side".
Salvation cannot be earned.
If someone tries to earn it, they will lose it.

But that does not mean I cannot sin of my own free will.
The Bible says it.
.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> Why do you, Art and Ronnie keep promoting a works salvation, while denying it is a works salvation? Why take a man who believes the sufficiency of Christ and try to bind him with works? If you rely on Christ plus something else, you have not Christ. That is Paul's warning.



We're only saying what Paul himself said, dozens of times.

*The real answer to your first question is found in Romans 6. There Paul told Roman Christians why they were content to keep on sinning.

They didn't understand their new birth.

1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin............................................... .................................................. .................................................. ........12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not 

Why would Paul make such a statement?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Romans 6 is a good example of what I'm talking about. A few verses about  being a Christian and then a few "but" or "if" warning verses.  It's almost like we can go astray and need warning from Jesus. why was Paul worried about those Churches going astray?


----------



## M80

Ronnie T said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by mwilliams80 View Post
> The whole differance between us is that y'all believe you own your salvation and have worked for it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Me neither.  I only hear that from the "other side".
> Salvation cannot be earned.
> If someone tries to earn it, they will lose it.
> 
> But that does not mean I cannot sin of my own free will.
> The Bible says it.
> .



So is it an accident when you sin. I know sometimes with me it is. What about if you get angry about something and say(not cuse) something wrong or act wrong towards them. You saw it coming and didn't walk away. Does that mean that is when we lose salvation?  I don't read in the bible where someone lost their salvation and got resaved.


----------



## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> So is it an accident when you sin. I know sometimes with me it is. What about if you get angry about something and say(not cuse) something wrong or act wrong towards them. You saw it coming and didn't walk away. Does that mean that is when we lose salvation?  I don't read in the bible where someone lost their salvation and got resaved.



No one's talking about losing salvation over a sin.
We're talking about admitting that when you sin it's a sin!  Don't pretend it doesn't touch your soul!  Don't pretend it doesn't have ramifications on your life and the life of people your sin might have affected!  YOU SINNED!
Now admit it to God and continue on in your journey.

Don't be like the Christians of Romans 6.


----------



## M80

Ronnie T said:


> No one's talking about losing salvation over a sin.
> We're talking about admitting that when you sin it's a sin!  Don't pretend it doesn't touch your soul!  Don't pretend it doesn't have ramifications on your life and the life of people your sin might have affected!  YOU SINNED!
> Now admit it to God and continue on in your journey.
> 
> Don't be like the Christians of Romans 6.



Don't get upset brother. I do sin. The bible says if we say we have not sin we are a lier and the truth is not in us. I sin everyday. I believe we strive everyday to not sin. Paul said in Philippians 3 that although he hasn't obtained his goal he still presses toward the mark. I never said I don't sin but it is the flesh that does it. I thought this whole thread was about people saying we can lose our salvation because of sin. If its not sin that makes people think they can lose it, what is?


----------



## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> If its not sin that makes people think they can lose it, what is?


Self preservation.


----------



## hobbs27

Bama4me said:


> What about Ezekiel 18:20 and James 5:19-20?  The word soul is used in reference to both sin and death.



We all have eternal life....Salvation is what determines where we spend it.


Cause I'm busy at the moment I'm going to cheat a bit, but this explains my thoughts perfectly by Matthew Henry.

James 5:19-20
It is no mark of a wise or holy man, to boast of being free from error, or to refuse to acknowledge an error. And there is some doctrinal mistake at the bottom of every practical mistake. There is no one habitually bad, but upon some bad principle. This is conversion; to turn a sinner from the error of his ways, not merely from one party to another, or from one notion and way of thinking to another. There is no way effectually and finally to hide sin, but forsaking it. Many sins are hindered in the party converted; many also may be so in others whom he may influence. The salvation of one soul is of infinitely greater importance than preserving the lives of multitudes, or promoting the welfare of a whole people. Let us in our several stations keep these things in mind, sparing no pains in God's service, and the event will prove that our labour is not in vain in the Lord. For six thousand years He has been multiplying pardons, and yet his free grace is not tired nor grown weary. Certainly Divine mercy is an ocean that is ever full and ever flowing. May the Lord give us a part in this abundant mercy, through the blood of Christ, and the sanctification of the Spirit.

Ezekiel 18:19,20


The soul that sinneth it shall die. As to eternity, every man was, is, and will be dealt with, as his conduct shows him to have been under the old covenant of works, or the new covenant of grace. Whatever outward sufferings come upon men through the sins of others, they deserve for their own sins all they suffer; and the Lord overrules every event for the eternal good of believers. All souls are in the hand of the great Creator: he will deal with them in justice or mercy; nor will any perish for the sins of another, who is not in some sense worthy of death for his own. We all have sinned, and our souls must be lost, if God deal with us according to his holy law; but we are invited to come to Christ. If a man who had shown his faith by his works, had a wicked son, whose character and conduct were the reverse of his parent's, could it be expected he should escape the Divine vengeance on account of his father's piety? Surely not. And should a wicked man have a son who walked before God as righteous, this man would not perish for his father's sins. If the son was not free from evils in this life, still he should be partaker of salvation. The question here is not about the meritorious ground of justification, but about the Lord's dealings with the righteous and the wicked.


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> Don't get upset brother. I do sin. The bible says if we say we have not sin we are a lier and the truth is not in us. I sin everyday. I believe we strive everyday to not sin. Paul said in Philippians 3 that although he hasn't obtained his goal he still presses toward the mark. I never said I don't sin but it is the flesh that does it. I thought this whole thread was about people saying we can lose our salvation because of sin. If its not sin that makes people think they can lose it, what is?



I look at it as a life of sin. Sinning without remorse. Sinning without repenting. Falling away/apostasy, returning to former, disobedience, not doing the will of God, evil deeds, not forgiving others, not helping poor people, temptation, not following the teachings of Jesus, losing fear of God, stray from the truth, causing a brother to stumble, not holding fast, not enduring to the end, love of money, or losing discipleship.

I do not know at what point of disobedience or not fearing God I would have to reach for me to lose my Salvation. That is up to God. He placed his commandment to love him and my neighbors in the New Testament. He must want me to do it.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Our flesh and carnal bodies...outward man.  Can and does sin. It also falls short of the glory of God and is deserving of he!!.
> Our born again soul which has been sanctified by the blood of Christ through regeneration...inward man... Is not of this world and cannot sin...and will not fall.
> 
> Just my opinion .



How do you separate the two outward/inward beings in regards to following God? Are the warnings of obedience to God just a warning to the outer man? 

If we are saved why do we still need Jesus? Sick people need a doctor not well people.


----------



## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> If its not sin that makes people think they can lose it, what is?





gemcgrew said:


> Self preservation.



Nope.  Bible study.
.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Our flesh and carnal bodies...outward man.  Can and does sin. It also falls short of the glory of God and is deserving of he!!.
> Our born again soul which has been sanctified by the blood of Christ through regeneration...inward man... Is not of this world and cannot sin...and will not fall.
> 
> Just my opinion .



What will happen to a Christian who listens to his outer man instead of following his inner man? Can we separate our two now or must we wait for Jesus to return?

Gal 6:7-8  Do not be deceived: sowing to the flesh reaps corruption, sowing to the Spirit reaps eternal life.

Gal 5:19-21  Anyone practicing such sins (the works of the flesh) will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Rom 8:1-8  Anyone who is carnally-minded (is living according to the flesh) will die spiritually.

John 12:25 He who loves his life in this world will lose it (eternal life) later.


----------



## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> No one's talking about losing salvation over a sin.
> We're talking about admitting that when you sin it's a sin!  Don't pretend it doesn't touch your soul!  Don't pretend it doesn't have ramifications on your life and the life of people your sin might have affected!  YOU SINNED!
> Now admit it to God and continue on in your journey.
> 
> Don't be like the Christians of Romans 6.





mwilliams80 said:


> Don't get upset brother. I do sin. The bible says if we say we have not sin we are a lier and the truth is not in us. I sin everyday. I believe we strive everyday to not sin. Paul said in Philippians 3 that although he hasn't obtained his goal he still presses toward the mark. I never said I don't sin but it is the flesh that does it. I thought this whole thread was about people saying we can lose our salvation because of sin. If its not sin that makes people think they can lose it, what is?



I'm not getting upset, just preachin.  

I'm not talking about losing salvation over a sin.  But it's important for people to understand that when they sin it involves much more than "just" the flesh.
Sin is of satan.  I don't accidentally sin, and I don't believe you do either.  I sin because I take my eyes of the one whom I should serve, and I serve another for a moment.  My fleshly sins all and always begin in my heart.  And my heart is the eye into my soul.
When I sin, the wrong dog won.  I failed.  Satan did not overpower me, because Christ has given me the ability to not sin.
I have no excuse for my sin.
It is only then that I will be willing to admit that sin, seeking forgiveness for that sin, and realize that Christ deserves better than that from me.

Will I ever become perfect?  Yes.  When I die and am with my Lord.  But until then I cannot ever try to do what those Christians were attempting in Romans 6.
.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Are there any warnings to Christians about not keeping the faith or about disobedience to God? You know the verses at the end of the Biblical stories that usually start with an "if" or "but". 
Like this verse:
John 3:36
 He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> How do you separate the two outward/inward beings in regards to following God? Are the warnings of obedience to God just a warning to the outer man?



It is the struggle of the born again Christian to put the outward man, flesh, to death daily....allow the inward man to bubble up that Christ can be seen in us...as for the warnings...yes and no. We are blessed with the gift of the Holy Spirit, but if we disobey the spirit we deny the gift...I feel Gods presence every day, that's a feeling I'm not so willing to give up anymore.Now when I was younger and even more stubborn I thought I could do things on my own without the Lords involvement...I made a mess of my life. Glory be to God He does not forsake us! He made everything alright again, and I learned a lesson.



> If we are saved why do we still need Jesus? Sick people need a doctor not well people.



Salvation ..or regeneration is the beginning of our Christian beings....not a certificate or a temporary state of being...It's who we are...we belong to Christ, We are betrothed to Christ. To say a Christian no longer needs Christ because of salvation is to say an infant no longer needs a mother because of natural birth. I need Christ even more than I needed my mother the hour I was born. I depend on him for Food, Clothing, Shelter, the very next breath I take....will be given to me by Christ if He so sees it!


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> Does not everyone that is alive have a soul even the lost. Our soul is what is born again at salvation. That reborn soul can't sin.
> 
> The whole differance between us is that y'all believe you own your salvation and have worked for it. We believe Christ blood purchased us and we have accepted him into our hearts, thus he is the one in control, not us, the bible says there is none good, no not one. Y'all keep saying you should live right to keep it. It's not mine to keep, it's The Lord. He said nobody could pluck us from his hand, and not to mention his fathers hand. That's a double seal. It's not me grasping his hand and struggling to hold on. It's him holding me. Ephesians says Not of works lest any should boast. By what you are saying his blood isn't good enough for all my sins. His blood cleanses all our sins, even future sins. Not of works- if it was up to us we could get the glory and say cause I've been good he let me keep my salvation. It is the gift of god. A gift means someone gives us something. I guess we are going to just keep going in circles on this like all the other threads that have discussed this subject



If you'll look at the very first post I made on the thread, I explained very clearly what I believe.  Somehow or another, according to what you say, to receive a million dollar gift by simply signing a paper means I've earned that gift.  I didn't "earn it"... I just complied with demands to receive it.  I didn't originate the plan... I simply obeyed.

An illustration of "saved by grace through faith" comes in 1 John 1:8.  God told Christians that they must confess their sins to Him in order to continue to have forgiveness.  Does somehow confessing (owning up to) my sins somehow mean I "earn" God's forgiveness?  Absolutely not!!!  I am simply complying with God's command... I'm simply doing what He says to take away my sin.  As Centerpin and Ronnie state, I know of no one on "my side" who would claim they .  

According to your theology, a person can be saved even if he/she does not confess their sins... because salvation is all in the hands of God.


----------



## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> This is conversion; to turn a sinner from the error of his ways, not merely from one party to another, or from one notion and way of thinking to another. There is no way effectually and finally to hide sin, but forsaking it. Many sins are hindered in the party converted; many also may be so in others whom he may influence.



Henry is wrong in this case... James 5:19-20 is not about a person who is an unbeliever.  This passage clearly speaks of one who has "wandered from the truth"... someone to "be brought back".  You can't wander from something unless you belong... you can bring someone back to something they didn't belong to.


----------



## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> We are blessed with the gift of the Holy Spirit, but if we disobey the spirit we deny the gift....



So there IS something man must do?


----------



## hobbs27

Bama4me said:


> So there IS something man must do?





			
				Hobbs27 said:
			
		

> Don't know about the word "must" but obedience is better than sacrifice.



Thinking about this more....The only must I can think of that we must do is , we must be born again! Is that works? I don't think so!


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> because salvation is all in the hands of God.


Well, we can't have that now can we.


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## Artfuldodger

Man must believe, repent, confess, obey, help, love, & pray.


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## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> Henry is wrong in this case... James 5:19-20 is not about a person who is an unbeliever.  This passage clearly speaks of one who has "wandered from the truth"... someone to "be brought back".  You can't wander from something unless you belong... you can bring someone back to something they didn't belong to.


Nonsense. Read 2 Peter 2:12-15 and get back with us.


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## M80

Quote from Ronnie   

Will I ever become perfect? Yes. When I die and am with my Lord. But until then I cannot ever try to do what those Christians were attempting in Romans 6.



Amen brother


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> Nonsense. Read 2 Peter 2:12-15 and get back with us.



Verses 9-10 clearly states the passage you cite refers to those who are "unrighteous"... contrasted with those who are "godly".  Thus, though the book was written to Christians (1:1), it's clear 2:12-15 refer to non-Christians.

James is writing to "his brothers" (1:2)... to Christians.  5:19 says "if anyone among you"... that's fellow Christians.  They had "wandered from the truth"... that means they had the truth in times past.  To be "brought back", they had to have been part of what they were being brought back to at some point in the past.  What Henry is asserting is nonsense... the only way you can read James 5:19-20 and come up with this interpretation is to already believe in OSAS when reading the passage (which Henry did).


----------



## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> Don't know about the word "must" but obedience is better than sacrifice.



Isn't obedience "works"?


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> Verses 9-10 clearly states the passage you cite refers to those who are "unrighteous"... contrasted with those who are "godly".  Thus, though the book was written to Christians (1:1), it's clear 2:12-15 refer to non-Christians.


That was my point! They were in the right way and went astray. They just had to be Christians according to your previous statement.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> Man must believe, repent, confess, obey, help, love, & pray.


Those would be good things, would they not? How can we do those things when there is none that doeth good? (Romans 3:12)


----------



## M80

Quote from bama4me 


An illustration of "saved by grace through faith" comes in 1 John 1:8. God told Christians that they must confess their sins to Him in order to continue to have forgiveness. Does somehow confessing (owning up to) my sins somehow mean I "earn" God's forgiveness? Absolutely not!!! I am simply complying with God's command... I'm simply doing what He says to take away my sin. As Centerpin and Ronnie state, I know of no one on "my side" who would claim they . 


What if you die in a car wreck before you are able to confess your sins or do you confess them as soon as you do sin to make sure your still going to heaven

You do know that we can get out of the will of The Lord in our life. When you said you got lost in your younger years after you was saved I believe you was out of his will. You wasn't let him guide you in your life. I was there also in my life. If we are to stay in his will and pray for others expecting him to listen we must have sins confessed in our life. We must ask for forgiveness if we are to serve The Lord. If my sons disobeys me and don't do the things I ask I'm not going to reward him and give him toys. When he is doing what I ask him to do and conducts himself right the. I reward him. Remember we cry "abba father" we are the sons of god being adopted in his family and he will chasten us cause he loves us, not send us to he11. 

The verse if we confess our sins that you and I have mentioned is to his redeemed, not Christians that has lost their salvation


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> That was my point! They were in the right way and went astray. They just had to be Christians according to your previous statement.



Sorry... overlooked something in my previous post.  Going back and looking deeper, I tend to believe the "these" of verse 12 refer to the "false prophets among you" of verse 1.  The same people who "forsook the wrong way, having gone astray".  Thus, the description given in verses 12-15 are actually of Christians who fell from grace.


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> The verse if we confess our sins that you and I have mentioned is to his redeemed, not Christians that has lost their salvation



Exactly!!!  But will they continue to be "redeemed" (saved) if they stop confessing their sins to God?


----------



## M80

Bama4me said:


> Exactly!!!  But will they continue to be "redeemed" (saved) if they stop confessing their sins to God?



Yes. They will be out of his will. They will not have that many crowns to toss at the feet of Jesus


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> Sorry... overlooked something in my previous post.  Going back and looking deeper, I tend to believe the "these" of verse 12 refer to the "false prophets among you" of verse 1.  The same people who "forsook the wrong way, having gone astray".  Thus, the description given in verses 12-15 are actually of Christians who fell from grace.


So, according to verse 12, These Christians were "made to be to be taken and destroyed"? 
Does God not appoint some men to wrath and some to salvation? (1 Thessalonians 5:9)

If Christians can lose their salvation, why was Paul so confident "that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:"?


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Those would be good things, would they not? How can we do those things when there is none that doeth good? (Romans 3:12)



Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
> 
> Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.


Correct. Only God is good. That is how we know that our works do not produce the Spirit. The Spirit produces good works.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> So, according to verse 12, These Christians were "made to be to be taken and destroyed"?
> Does God not appoint some men to wrath and some to salvation? (1 Thessalonians 5:9)
> 
> If Christians can lose their salvation, why was Paul so confident "that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:"?



If salvation cannot be lost, or thrown away, why would Paul even make such a statement?  Why would Paul have taught 90 percent of the things he taught?

What Paul said is a great understanding for all believers.
God is the beginning and the end of everything we're to accomplish in life.
God truly is the beginning of our salvation, and again, God will be the completion of our salvation.

But why did Paul have such confidence?  Look at all the other verses around the one you recorded......  Paul knew these people.  Paul never said that about any church or Christian that he did not know.  Matter of fact, is this the only time Paul ever made the comment?  Only to these Christians.

3 I thank my God in all my remembrance of you, 4 always offering prayer with joy in my every prayer for you all, 5 in view of your participation in the gospel from the first day until now. 6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. 7 For it is only right for me to feel this way about you all, because I have you in my heart, since both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all are partakers of grace with me. 8 For God is my witness, how I long for you all with the affection of Christ Jesus. 9 And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment, 10 so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ; 11 having been filled with the fruit of righteousness which comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.

*Paul certainly wouldn't have made the verse 6 statement to the church in Sardis............
“To the angel of the church in Sardis write:

He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God. 3 So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you. 4 But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
> 
> Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.



 Yes.  And why shouldn't one keep the commandments of his/her Lord?


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> Exactly!!!  But will they continue to be "redeemed" (saved) if they stop confessing their sins to God?


Is it the confession of sin or the love of God that is the cause of our redemption?


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Yes.  And why shouldn't one keep the commandments of his/her Lord?


The point was not should, the point is you can't. What is he telling this man. What is he pointing this man to? Think.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> But why did Paul have such confidence?  Look at all the other verses around the one you recorded......  Paul knew these people.  Paul never said that about any church or Christian that he did not know.  Matter of fact, is this the only time Paul ever made the comment?  Only to these Christians.


Did you just make my point for me? Yes you did.


----------



## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> Yes.  And why shouldn't one keep the commandments of his/her Lord?





gemcgrew said:


> The point was not should, the point is you can't. What is he telling this man. What is he pointing this man to? Think.



If one reads the chapter all the way to the end a person will see God's expectation that a person be obedient to His commandments.
But there's never any room for a person to believe they have been perfectly obedient to all of them, as with the rich guy.  That was Jesus' problem with the man.  He thought too highly of himself.

As has been stated and restated by more than one person this week, obedience is not to earn anything from God, for a person must realize they will always fall short.
But the internal will to be obedient is an essential part of every believers life.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> Did you just make my point for me? Yes you did.



I don't know.  Sometimes the 'point' is not easily seen.


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> Yes. They will be out of his will. They will not have that many crowns to toss at the feet of Jesus



Ok... then I give up. 1 John 1:9 plainly implies children of God who are not willing to confess their sins do not have forgiveness of sins.  I don't know how any passage can make it any clearer that there are conditions placed upon our salvation.  If one can find a way around a passage like this, there's a predetermined belief system which causes him/her to do so.  I'll bow out of the thread here... I think those who are following this discussion has plenty of info to make a decision in the matter.


----------



## hobbs27

Romans 8:38-39

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature,shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If you are not saved you are not connected to the love of God, for Jesus does not know you....If you are saved and connected to the love of God...Nothing not sin, nor apostasy can separate you from God..


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> So, according to verse 12, These Christians were "made to be to be taken and destroyed"?
> Does God not appoint some men to wrath and some to salvation? (1 Thessalonians 5:9)
> 
> If Christians can lose their salvation, why was Paul so confident "that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:"?



Sorry Gem... you're steering the discussion back to your belief in predestination and I'm not biting, though I do believe Calvinistic teachings are a house of cards.


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> Sorry Gem... you're steering the discussion back to your belief in predestination and I'm not biting, though I do believe Calvinistic teachings are a house of cards.


Is salvation not the subject we are discussing? 

There is no salvation without predestination. Romans 8:29


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> As has been stated and restated by more than one person this week, obedience is not to earn anything from God, for a person must realize they will always fall short.
> But the internal will to be obedient is an essential part of every believers life.


Obedience is essential to salvation. The fruit of, not the cause of.


----------



## M80

Bama4me said:


> Ok... then I give up. 1 John 1:9 plainly implies children of God who are not willing to confess their sins do not have forgiveness of sins.  I don't know how any passage can make it any clearer that there are conditions placed upon our salvation.  If one can find a way around a passage like this, there's a predetermined belief system which causes him/her to do so.  I'll bow out of the thread here... I think those who are following this discussion has plenty of info to make a decision in the matter.



Brother I'm right there with you. I have given about everything I know about OSAS. I have learned a lot and enjoyed this talk. I'm glad we can talk on here like this. I love everyone of y'all on here and hope we can meet up sometime my brothers in Christ. I'm going to have to come down there sometime and show Ronnie what a fish looks like  I'm still going to chime in some but my wife thinks I love this forum more than her


----------



## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> Romans 8:38-39
> 
> 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
> 
> 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature,shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
> 
> If you are not saved you are not connected to the love of God, for Jesus does not know you....If you are saved and connected to the love of God...Nothing not sin, nor apostasy can separate you from God..


Amen


----------



## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> I have given about everything I know about OSAS.


Consider this if you haven't already. 2 Peter 1:3 tells us "his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness". If this is true, does anything pertaining to life and Godliness depend upon us? 



mwilliams80 said:


> I'm still going to chime in some but my wife thinks I love this forum more than her


Been there!


----------



## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> Brother I'm right there with you. I have given about everything I know about OSAS. I have learned a lot and enjoyed this talk. I'm glad we can talk on here like this. I love everyone of y'all on here and hope we can meet up sometime my brothers in Christ. I'm going to have to come down there sometime and show Ronnie what a fish looks like  I'm still going to chime in some but my wife thinks I love this forum more than her



I wish you would.  
I'd show you what might be the most beautiful lake in Georgia.


----------



## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> Romans 8:38-39
> 
> 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
> 
> 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature,shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
> 
> If you are not saved you are not connected to the love of God, for Jesus does not know you....If you are saved and connected to the love of God...Nothing not sin, nor apostasy can separate you from God..



Include the fruits of the Spirit and include one putting on all the items of the 'full armor of God' and one quickly realizes that nothing is this world has the power to separate of from God.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Amen that nothing can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Reading on in Romans 8 we learn that God hasn't rejected the people of Israel & the descendants of Abraham. (they rejected him)
The story lets us know God will not abandon us, again amen.
Rejection of God made the separation. They lost the promise God made in Romans 8: 38-39.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Is salvation not the subject we are discussing?
> 
> There is no salvation without predestination. Romans 8:29



I've got nothing as a rebuttal.                                                    God chooses and then controls our obedience. He makes us believe in Jesus and then he makes us quit sinning. He makes us repent and confess. We already know he gives us our faith. We already know that Satan has no control over us nor never did. We know that using this logic we were protected even before being saved. God makes us forgive other people and help the poor. If we quit believing in God then God never really ever saved us or elected us depending on which version you believe. Whomever or whoever wants to be saved isn't possible (Romans 8:29). New Testaments Commandments 1 & 2 to love God and neighbor are not even possible to break. 
OSAS = Election, It's just a matter of when the election is performed. Either way you were protected from eternal death from before you were born. That's very comforting.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Matthew 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Matthew Henry's commentary:
7:12-14 Christ came to teach us, not only what we are to know and believe, but what we are to do; not only toward God, but toward men; not only toward those of our party and persuasion, but toward men in general, all with whom we have to do. We must do that to our neighbour which we ourselves acknowledge to be fit and reasonable. We must, in our dealings with men, suppose ourselves in the same case and circumstances with those we have to do with, and act accordingly. There are but two ways right and wrong, good and evil; the way to heaven and the way to - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -; in the one or other of these all are walking: there is no middle place hereafter, no middle way now. All the children of men are saints or sinners, godly or ungodly. See concerning the way of sin and sinners, that the gate is wide, and stands open. You may go in at this gate with all your lusts about you; it gives no check to appetites or passions. It is a broad way; there are many paths in it; there is choice of sinful ways. There is a large company in this way. But what profit is there in being willing to go to - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - with others, because they will not go to heaven with us? The way to eternal life is narrow. We are not in heaven as soon as we are got through the strait gate. Self must be denied, the body kept under, and corruptions mortified. Daily temptations must be resisted; duties must be done. We must watch in all things, and walk with care; and we must go through much tribulation. And yet this way should invite us all; it leads to life: to present comfort in the favour of God, which is the life of the soul; to eternal bliss, the hope of which at the end of our way, should make all the difficulties of the road easy to us. This plain declaration of Christ has been disregarded by many who have taken pains to explain it away; but in all ages the real disciple of Christ has been looked on as a singular, unfashionable character; and all that have sided with the greater number, have gone on in the broad road to destruction. If we would serve God, we must be firm in our religion. Can we often hear of the strait gate and the narrow way, and how few there are that find it, without being in pain for ourselves, or considering whether we are entered on the narrow way, and what progress we are making in it?


----------



## barryl

Bama4me said:


> Barryl... just a question for you since it seems you try to claim a lot of NT Scripture doesn't apply to us.  Exactly which NT passages DO apply to us... and why those and not others?  I asked this question of MWilliams and I never received an answer from him.  If you guys are going to continue to use this argument, how about letting the rest of us know which ones apply... instead of continuing to say "we've got to rightly divide the Scriptures" (which ineffectively makes your argument).


Been gone a week or so, Man ya'll have been splinterin' the wood! Since you asked me directly, I'll try to answer. The Gospels{Matt., Mark, Luke, John} are placed first in the N.T. Why, because thats where our "Savior" appears on Earth to his people which they reject. The "Gospels" and "The Acts of The Apostles" are a transitional or a bridge to the "Body Of Christ"{Jewish To Jewish and Gentile}. The Gospels are a bad place for Application "Doctrinally." {Gentiles-Romans through Philemons}You will find the Gospel{Good News} in 1Cor. 15:1-4 KJV AV Every verse of scripture should be divided, Spiritual, Doctrinal or Historical. You will err if you use the "Blanket Theory". Many people think that the Church began and God's grace and the Gospel went out to the whole World at that time. Jesus ministered to the Nation of Isreal for three years. You can find more info over on the "Assurance of Salvation" thread on the Christianity and Judiaism page.


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> The Gospels are a bad place for Application "Doctrinally."



Yet, for many people, John 3:16 practically _is_ the Bible.


----------



## barryl

gemcgrew said:


> I should not have answered for barryl, but he can straighten it out if I misrepresented. I attended a "Christian" school in a dispensationalist church. If you didn't use a Scofield Study Bible, you were under suspicion.


I use the "Old Scofield KJV AV Study Bible" not the new one recommended BJU. Anyone would know that God dealt with different people at different times through the Bible and not use the "Balanket Theory" to put everyone "In Christ" before the foundation of the World. How's the eyes doing?


----------



## gemcgrew

barryl said:


> and not use the "Balanket Theory" to put everyone "In Christ" before the foundation of the World. How's the eyes doing?


Who does this, I am not familiar with it.

Eyes are doing great.


----------



## Israel

gimme some more of dat blanket...sometimes I feel a chill in dis cold cold place...


----------



## gemcgrew

Israel said:


> gimme some more of dat blanket...sometimes I feel a chill in dis cold cold place...


Will the Surety blanket do?


----------



## Israel

gemcgrew said:


> Will the Surety blanket do?



of a surety!





Thanks bro.
Feeling warmer already!


----------



## barryl

gemcgrew said:


> Who does this, I am not familiar with it.
> 
> Eyes are doing great.


----------



## barryl

I thought I'd bump this thread up one more time. Ole Hobbs 27 said it best when he asked, had anyone that had lost their salvation{in- out- in} to let us know about it. I noticed that anyone that had something to say about losing salvation in the "Church age" or "Body of Christ" is about someone{or anybody} besides themselves. Kinda odd don't you think?


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> I thought I'd bump this thread up one more time. Ole Hobbs 27 said it best when he asked, had anyone that had lost their salvation{in- out- in} to let us know about it. I noticed that anyone that had something to say about losing salvation in the "Church age" or "Body of Christ" is about someone{or anybody} besides themselves.



Somebody who has abandoned God is probably not interested in posting in a thread like this.


----------



## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> I thought I'd bump this thread up one more time. Ole Hobbs 27 said it best when he asked, had anyone that had lost their salvation{in- out- in} to let us know about it. I noticed that anyone that had something to say about losing salvation in the "Church age" or "Body of Christ" is about someone{or anybody} besides themselves. Kinda odd don't you think?



I would say that most people in Georgia believe as you do in OSAS and therefore not many would testify of the (in-out-in) of salvation.
Many verses on losing faith but I don't really know if they pertain to the "Church Age" or not.

I can find and have read many testimonies of people losing their faith in God even to the point of not believing. It would be easy to assume with a "OSAS" belief system to believe they never lost their salvation while in the "not believing in God anymore" period of their life.
God could have protected them in this period so that they could not die as un-believers.


----------



## Israel

If we seem to operate under the premise that salvation is more than just mouthing words, and finding this at least consistent with scripture...we still have no definitive test of it, do we? 

We must leave that with the God who knows those who are his.

But if the first paragraph can be received, how then can we determine what words would then disqualify, to our satisfaction, one from belonging to the Lord?
Peter swore he did not know the man.
How do we know, if and when we heard such a one as him in such a situation of testing...that we may be found casually dismissing a disciple...in the throes of discovering truth...about himself...and the Lord?
I have seen brothers...who then took a road that, at the time to me, seemed totally contrary to the way of truth. I might even say that many have watched my "progress" and lamented what appeared as detours I had found. 

Yet...in staying in touch with those who have flirted with either an agnosticism...or even confessed atheism, I see in their conversations...endeavors, and strivings, Jesus often remains the central conundrum of their lives...even if they go about to disprove his reality. They betray a preoccupation with him, and I cannot help but consider, that the maker of man, has not abandoned him...and who knows if their true center will be revealed, in due time?

The Lord can be quite bothersome I have learned...when I have acted in hypocrisy, unkindness and lack of faith. God forbid I dismiss his work in any other...even as they wrestle with who, and what they are, what is, and is not, the real...and their illusions.

I believe long before Jesus had the "word" for Peter that would break him in his own sight...the Lord plainly saw something amiss that troubled him. But by waiting...and praying for Peter, I believe he was able to both receive and in liberty, at an appointed time...speak what was necessary.
So may it be for us.
Perhaps our patience which when perfected will show us lacking nothing...might be that for which the Lord...waits...for us.


----------



## hobbs27

I'm beginning to see that OSAS is a negative term used by folks that don't believe in it...this must be why I never even heard of it until a few years ago....I think a more accurate term would be If Saved Always Saved. Someone used that earlier and I agree it's more accurate.

 Several problems arise when you say salvation can be lost..
1. As Baryl mentions there's no evidence. No where is there anyone with a legitimate testimony of losing it and getting it back..there's no mention of it happening in the Bible nor early church history.
2. We all agree we are saved by grace. Grace is required because none of us are worthy of salvation. we all come short of the glory of God and we are all deserving of HeII. To say that someone sins to the point of becoming unworthy of salvation is an oxymoron.
3. Probably the biggest difference we have is not so much if we have eternal security, but what is salvation! Without getting off topic , I will just say this. If you come to know salvation the way The Lord made me come to know it, you would know its not something that will ever leave you...you are the result of Gods salvation...


. Just to add one little thing. God is still in the saving business and I've been getting calls and messages all week about folks being saved in revivals all around. I received several pictures of folks that had been saved hours before, and the only time you will see a glow on someone's face that even comes close is in a wedding picture or a mother with a newborn...Imagine that.


----------



## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> I thought I'd bump this thread up one more time. Ole Hobbs 27 said it best when he asked, had anyone that had lost their salvation{in- out- in} to let us know about it. I noticed that anyone that had something to say about losing salvation in the "Church age" or "Body of Christ" is about someone{or anybody} besides themselves. Kinda odd don't you think?



Not odd at all.  I don't even know if God is going to find you to be one of His.  It is a personal consideration.  You cannot know of me, and I cannot know of you.  But God knows each of us.

Paul gave some good advise to the Corinth Christians, and to you and I.  We would all be well served to take his words seriously.

2 Corinthians 13:5 
Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?
.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> Paul gave some good advise to the Corinth Christians, and to you and I.  We would all be well served to take his words seriously.
> 
> 2 Corinthians 13:5
> Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?
> .



That's not for the "Church Age" is it? Paul was being specific to one Church. 
I don't really think that but even if it was to only the Corinthians the message was that "they" had better check themselves out to make sure "they" were in the faith. "They" might fail the test. The "they" Paul was referring to were Christians or professed Christians. 
Paul was letting them know that after the examination and if they failed the test, they had better work on their "faith."
So even if this doesn't pertain to the "Church Age" it sets a precedent that salvation can be lost.


----------



## Artfuldodger

What happened between the Old & New Testament that made God quit preferring righteous people? 
Did Jesus dying on the cross change God's demand for obedience and righteous living?
Are there righteous people in today's "Church Age?" I would hope so.
Here is a good blog about righteous people:

What, then, is the distinguishing characteristic of a righteous person? Is it one who claims to follow Christ, or claims to be born again, or claims to have a great ministry? No. It is the person who “serves God”. Or as Jesus put it, it is “only he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven.” (Matt. 7:21) That is the one who is righteous. And sometimes… there are more of them around than we think. (1 Kings 19:14,18)
http://knowgodsword.wordpress.com/2011/01/26/there-are-righteous-people/

Odd? the odd thing to me is how Jesus kept returning to the importance of doing the will of his Father who is in Heaven. Odd that Christians ignore the Kingdom of God.


----------



## gemcgrew

"My salvation shall be forever" (Isaiah 51:6)


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> That's not for the "Church Age" is it? Paul was being specific to one Church.
> I don't really think that but even if it was to only the Corinthians the message was that "they" had better check themselves out to make sure "they" were in the faith. "They" might fail the test. The "they" Paul was referring to were Christians or professed Christians.
> Paul was letting them know that after the examination and if they failed the test, they had better work on their "faith."
> So even if this doesn't pertain to the "Church Age" it sets a precedent that salvation can be lost.




Paul was talking to Jewish and gentile Christians of the church in Corinth.  People like me and you who are all living through the blood of God's son.
.


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> What happened between the Old & New Testament that made God quit preferring righteous people?
> Did Jesus dying on the cross change God's demand for obedience and righteous living?
> Are there righteous people in today's "Church Age?" I would hope so.
> 
> Odd? the odd thing to me is how Jesus kept returning to the importance of doing the will of his Father who is in Heaven. Odd that Christians ignore the Kingdom of God.



When you, or I, or anybody finds a passage, or a concept, or an era in scripture where we don’t clearly understand the continuity between/among the events, often our first thought is  “God changed”.  *That is a very bad idea*.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> When you, or I, or anybody finds a passage, or a concept, or an era in scripture where we don’t clearly understand the continuity between/among the events, often our first thought is  “God changed”.  *That is a very bad idea*.



Amen and that is the very point I was making. Righteousness is still an important part of being a Christian in the New Testament.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> "My salvation shall be forever" (Isaiah 51:6)



1Ti 4:16 Take HEED unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. 

 Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that OBEY him; 

 Heb 10:23 Let us HOLD FAST the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised

2 Peter 3:17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.

1 John 2:17 And the world and its desires are fading away, but the person who does God's WILL remains FOREVER.


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> 1Ti 4:16 Take HEED unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
> 
> Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that OBEY him;
> 
> Heb 10:23 Let us HOLD FAST the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
> 
> 2 Peter 3:17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.
> 
> 1 John 2:17 And the world and its desires are fading away, but the person who does God's WILL remains FOREVER.



1john 2:17. That's your answer you've been looking for. To do gods will is to be saved. John 3 says" For Fod sent not his son into the world to condem the world, but that the world through him might be saved". Also the bibles says"the lord is not slack conserning his promise as some men count slackness, but is long suffering to usward, not WILLING that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> 1john 2:17. That's your answer you've been looking for. To do gods will is to be saved. John 3 says" For Fod sent not his son into the world to condem the world, but that the world through him might be saved". Also the bibles says"the lord is not slack conserning his promise as some men count slackness, but is long suffering to usward, not WILLING that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.



Jesus' mission while on Earth wasn't to condemn. Jesus didn't condemn homosexuality but God does. Jesus didn't condemn slavery but God does.


----------



## Artfuldodger

John 6:66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
They forfeited their discipleship.  They were disciples/followers but turned back and no longer followed the teachings of Christ.


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> Jesus' mission while on Earth wasn't to condemn. Jesus didn't condemn homosexuality but God does. Jesus didn't condemn slavery but God does.



God is Jesus


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> God is Jesus



That doesn't change the mission of his son Jesus while he was roaming the Earth in a human body. 
Jesus ascended into Heaven in a glorified body. Did he park it at the gates? Jesus is in Heaven right now in some sort of a body. It might be a spiritual body but he is at his Father's side. He will return one day in the same body he left the Earth in regardless of where he parked it.
God has turned the judging over to Jesus his son.

In Jesus' Earthly life his mission was to teach & save. When he returns his mission will be to judge.


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> That doesn't change the mission of his son Jesus while he was roaming the Earth in a human body.
> Jesus ascended into Heaven in a glorified body. Did he park it at the gates? Jesus is in Heaven right now in some sort of a body. It might be a spiritual body but he is at his Father's side. He will return one day in the same body he left the Earth in regardless of where he parked it.
> God has turned the judging over to Jesus his son.
> 
> In Jesus' Earthly life his mission was to teach & save. When he returns his mission will be to judge.



Yes but which judgement are you referring too. There will be two


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> Yes but which judgement are you referring too. There will be two



The Judgement seat of Christ will be before Christ. The Great White Throne Judgement will be before God.


----------



## ddd-shooter

Go down to the atheist forum and you will meet several guys who say they were saved and have decided it was all a facade. 

Me personally, I know the scriptures on both sides. I don't think scripture supports an "accidental" loss of salvation, like losing one's car keys  or stumbling as we learn to walk. 
I do believe you can choose. You can choose to continue to eat the forbidden fruit, make clothes to cover your shame and reject the Grace of God.


----------



## Artfuldodger

2Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Again righteousness comes into play.


----------



## Israel

ddd-shooter said:


> Go down to the atheist forum and you will meet several guys who say they were saved and have decided it was all a facade.
> 
> Me personally, I know the scriptures on both sides. I don't think scripture supports an "accidental" loss of salvation, like losing one's car keys  or stumbling as we learn to walk.
> I do believe you can choose. You can choose to continue to eat the forbidden fruit, make clothes to cover your shame and reject the Grace of God.


I find your contribution very welcome.

But...here is "my"...but. And it is not a contradiction...but an observation...about myself alone.

Agreeing wholeheartedly with what you've written...I yet discover "about myself" areas where I thought I was trusting God...revealed as me just still trusting in my own righteousness.

It's not even whether I would like to say "I trust God in all things, at all times...for mercy, for grace, for he alone is my life." And again...it's not that he isn't ABSOLUTELY the life of all who live and breathe (and the many who do not need to anymore...breathe that is) for he is...whether I am in complete congruence with my statement or not...but that if, in my seeking, I yet discover (which I trust is by his gracious revelation) those attitudes, thoughts, places in myself...where I am not completely submitted...and really KNOW NOTHING of them...until they are revealed...I am convinced my own inadequacies could easily deceive me into a false appraisal of others. 

Do you get what I mean? Dirt on my windshield makes EVERYTHING look dirty...foggy, dusty. And to go further with that...sometimes we get used to it...don't we...even rather easily...till one day we stop to fill up with gas and take the squeegee and PRESTO! Yikes, man...things are so much clearer than I thought they were...or even, perhaps thought they could be!

I agree, as I said...trusting in the Lord...is just that...trusting in the Lord. And you make a good distinction...of the eating and the covering. 
Where does this leave me...except in this confession. 
Maybe I have never been "truly" saved...
Maybe being saved is more a progression than is often given it...
And maybe...if I cannot say I ever really know exactly where I am on that continuum...for the Lord seems always able to point out some area, when need be...where I too cover my shame with self justifications...take delight in the knowledge of good and evil, so I am, if nothing else now...at least mindful of that (when reminded) that judging where others appear is at least a difficult...and maybe even impossible place for me to navigate.
Believe me when I tell you, though...it sometimes is revealed to me how much I like to test things...and am often found skating on thin ice. 

However, I am more inclined it seems now to ask when I perceive a deficiency of the knowledge of Christ in another..."Lord...where am I lacking that is being a hindrance to helping this person to see you?"


But again I confess, I am just as easily found at times saying..."let me swing that sword Lord, I'll take care of your enemies!"


----------



## barryl

Ronnie T said:


> Not odd at all.  I don't even know if God is going to find you to be one of His.  It is a personal consideration.  You cannot know of me, and I cannot know of you.  But God knows each of us.
> 
> Paul gave some good advise to the Corinth Christians, and to you and I.  We would all be well served to take his words seriously.
> 
> 2 Corinthians 13:5
> Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?
> .


RT-"I don't even know if God is going to find you{BL} to be one of his." ummmmm. . . I guess God will just have to ask RT, right? {1 Cor. 15:1-4 The Gospel} I tell you how "ole BL" knows he is one of Gods, 1st, BL believes the word of God.{KJV AV} 2nd, BL has recieved the "Sinless Blood Sacrifice" that the Lord Jesus Christ shed at Calvary. Study this verse of scripture, John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Good enough for me, how bout you? See, you can be sure.


----------



## ddd-shooter

Israel, amen! I have been saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved... 
I think it is much more of a process than we give it credit for. I think many people opt out of the deal. Repentance does not so much happen at the altar on Sunday morning as much as it happens Monday morning in your routine...


----------



## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> RT-"I don't even know if God is going to find you{BL} to be one of his." ummmmm. . . I guess God will just have to ask RT, right? {1 Cor. 15:1-4 The Gospel} I tell you how "ole BL" knows he is one of Gods, 1st, BL believes the word of God.{KJV AV} 2nd, BL has recieved the "Sinless Blood Sacrifice" that the Lord Jesus Christ shed at Calvary. Study this verse of scripture, John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Good enough for me, how bout you? See, you can be sure.



You're so quick to disagree with me that you don't carefully read my comments. Now go back and read it.
I didn't say you didn't know.
Although, maybe you don't.


----------



## Artfuldodger

If every Christian can be assured of salvation as 1)believes the word of God(KJV AV) and 2)Has received the sacrifice of Jesus,
who are the people who think they are Christians but aren't? 
What did you do that they didn't do when they thought they were saved in an instant? Why didn't their salvation take? 
If you say "they were never saved" then why not? If it really is just that easy and happens in an instant or moment, why isn't every person who professes to be a Christian going to Heaven?
How can you say you are assured in examples 1 &2 but nobody else is?


----------



## Ronnie T

ddd-shooter said:


> Israel, amen! I have been saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved...
> I think it is much more of a process than we give it credit for. I think many people opt out of the deal. Repentance does not so much happen at the altar on Sunday morning as much as it happens Monday morning in your routine...



Thanks.  I agree.  A very personal process.


----------



## Artfuldodger

If salvation happens in a moment and it isn't nothing we do, then again I must say the lesbian preacher at the United Church of Christ is saved.
If you are saved in a moment and repent(although I guess that doesn't have anything to do with salvation), future sinning or future repentance has nothing to do with salvation.
Yet for some reason there are people professing to be Christians that aren't really Christians.


----------



## Artfuldodger

ddd-shooter said:


> Israel, amen! I have been saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved...
> I think it is much more of a process than we give it credit for. I think many people opt out of the deal. Repentance does not so much happen at the altar on Sunday morning as much as it happens Monday morning in your routine...



I agree also and that's a very good way of approaching salvation. 
Why don't we use the same line Christians use to un-believers, "what if I'm right and you are wrong?"
If you believe you were saved in a moment and there is nothing you have  to do to maintain your place in Heaven and I believe there is, what if you are wrong?
It's just overkill for me.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Lastly, something that all OSAS Lite believers fail to realize is that their salvation is just as conditional as mine...
 If they murder, they never really had salvation...if I murder, I've lost my salvation
 If they commit adultery, they were never really saved...If I commit adultery, I'm no longer saved
 We are in the same boat--LOST! So at least they believe that you have to live a righteous life, and be a good person. Don't get me wrong, OSAS Lite is still a false doctrine, but it's not as extreme as....

http://www.thejesuscommandment.com/osas.html


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> If salvation happens in a moment and it isn't nothing we do, then again I must say the lesbian preacher at the United Church of Christ is saved.
> If you are saved in a moment and repent(although I guess that doesn't have anything to do with salvation), future sinning or future repentance has nothing to do with salvation.
> Yet for some reason there are people professing to be Christians that aren't really Christians.



When my son was born he was complete. He was a baby as we are too when we are born again, but we do grow in The Lord. When I got saved I got it all. No where in the bible does it say salvation comes in steps

We all need to be careful when we lead someone to The Lord. Their is a lot of people that have thought they were saved by this abc repeat after me salvation just to try and build numbers. You don't sign a card to be saved, being a member of a church won't get you saved. It takes the precious blood of Christ being applied to our lives for salvation. Many people have been falsely led to The Lord and been deceived. They will say" but lord, didn't I do this in your name". Many will go to an alter and cry and say they got saved and never did cause they didn't believe, many go down with others and get out of the alter saying they got saved to but never did. Then when The Lord deals with them they have to much pride to admit they never got saved while they continue to go to church their whole life and will also say" didn't I do this in your name"


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> When my son was born he was complete. He was a baby as we are too when we are born again, but we do grow in The Lord. When I got saved I got it all. No where in the bible does it say salvation comes in steps



Maybe we do recieve the promise of salvation in a moment but must take steps to keep it.

 Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
16 as you hold firmly to the word of life. And then I will be able to boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain. 

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

Philippians 2:12-18 We must be diligent in the use of all the means which lead to our salvation, persevering therein to the end. With great care, lest, with all our advantages, we should come short. Work out your salvation, for it is God who worketh in you.

I hope every preacher as yourself will be able to boast on the day of Christ not only for bringing souls to God but keeping them too. (my words)


----------



## Artfuldodger

You cannot know of me, and I cannot know of you. But God knows each of us.

Now where did I read that quote?


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe we do recieve the promise of salvation in a moment but must take steps to keep it.
> 
> Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
> 16 as you hold firmly to the word of life. And then I will be able to boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain.
> 
> Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
> 
> Philippians 2:12-18 We must be diligent in the use of all the means which lead to our salvation, persevering therein to the end. With great care, lest, with all our advantages, we should come short. Work out your salvation, for it is God who worketh in you.
> 
> I hope every preacher as yourself will be able to boast on the day of Christ not only for bringing souls to God but keeping them too. (my words)



Interesting.


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe we do recieve the promise of salvation in a moment but must take steps to keep it.
> 
> Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
> 16 as you hold firmly to the word of life. And then I will be able to boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain.
> 
> Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
> 
> Philippians 2:12-18 We must be diligent in the use of all the means which lead to our salvation, persevering therein to the end. With great care, lest, with all our advantages, we should come short. Work out your salvation, for it is God who worketh in you.
> 
> I hope every preacher as yourself will be able to boast on the day of Christ not only for bringing souls to God but keeping them too. (my words)



My bible doesn't say BOAST. It says rejoice. I can not boast for anything. The bible says as good as we can do is filthy rags. There is nothing good about me(my flesh). It's what's inside of me that is righteous. 

These verses you give mean nothing about losing your salvation. Read it all. He is encouraging them to let their lights shine. When I preach and if someone gets saved I encourage them to so let their light shine that the labor we have done will effect others that they come in contact with so that I can REJOICE when I see others that have been led to The Lord from the work I've done for The Lord. Preachers want to see people lives change. When you practice shooting a bow or gun and you see no improvement you feel as if your practiced in vain. Preachers get down and out sometimes too


----------



## M80

centerpin fan said:


> Interesting.



Again, my bible doesn't say come short in these verses


----------



## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> Again, my bible doesn't say come short in these verses



If your Bible _did_ say "come short", would you still hold to OSAS?


----------



## Israel

mwilliams80 said:


> When my son was born he was complete. He was a baby as we are too when we are born again, but we do grow in The Lord. When I got saved I got it all. No where in the bible does it say salvation comes in steps
> 
> We all need to be careful when we lead someone to The Lord. Their is a lot of people that have thought they were saved by this abc repeat after me salvation just to try and build numbers. You don't sign a card to be saved, being a member of a church won't get you saved. It takes the precious blood of Christ being applied to our lives for salvation. Many people have been falsely led to The Lord and been deceived. They will say" but lord, didn't I do this in your name". Many will go to an alter and cry and say they got saved and never did cause they didn't believe, many go down with others and get out of the alter saying they got saved to but never did. Then when The Lord deals with them they have to much pride to admit they never got saved while they continue to go to church their whole life and will also say" didn't I do this in your name"



I agree with your analogy...a baby is as much a "son"...and a member of the household as the one working beside you building a house, in business with his dad.

Perhaps the matter of maturing...of apprehending that for which we have been apprehended, that part of knowing Jesus as the One who is sent as eternal life...and not an event or even  "spiritual condition"...but something...maybe not more...but a deeper experience.

Our brother John was not warning us, but inviting us to seek out the glory when he said "he who says he knows him ought to walk even as he walked"...so that even in the saying, that once was easily given a preeminence when our words were less informed, might be in harmony with both what we have...and know.

Children may excitedly utter things that, at the time, are both fitting and appropriate, and who doesn't remember pretending by sliding a small foot into a large pair of brogans, slogging around the house, and lowering their voice as best they could? 

He never upbraids us for wearing his clothes...but when we mistakenly start to order the other children around, lost in our pretense...he may step in and remind us.

To some extent I see the games we played, even the cruelties, sometimes, that we carry over. And sometimes these are no more appropriate amongst HIS children...as they were in our "own" families.

I think the most hurtful one...as silly as it always is...is when we start to play the "you were adopted" game. You are not "as much" a member of the family as I or we (whose ever side we choose to be on) are. 
In its most severe form we play the "you're not saved" card.

So, as much as you hold that being a baby is as much "family" as any other...I am glad to be reminded.
Cause sometimes I whine like a chainsaw, and at other times discover I stink...and always need to be changed.

But I have a living hope daddy has promised...as do we all.


----------



## M80

centerpin fan said:


> If your Bible _did_ say "come short", would you still hold to OSAS?



Boy you just no how to throw things in there don't ya

The bible says avoid vain questions.......soooooooo


----------



## ddd-shooter

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

Verse 12 is all about what we do. 
Verse 13 is all about what God does. 
Which is it?  
Perhaps we meet in the middle, just like most of scripture. 
Something as magnificent and complex as salvation will not fit into one little catchphrase-as much as we want it to.


----------



## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> Boy you just no how to throw things in there don't ya
> 
> The bible says avoid vain questions.......soooooooo



I think the question is on point.  Also, speaking of "vain", Paul did say, "I will be able to boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain."  What does Paul mean by "in vain"?


----------



## centerpin fan

ddd-shooter said:


> Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
> 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
> 
> Verse 12 is all about what we do.
> Verse 13 is all about what God does.
> Which is it?
> Perhaps we meet in the middle, just like most of scripture.
> Something as magnificent and complex as salvation will not fit into one little catchphrase-as much as we want it to.



Agreed.


----------



## gemcgrew

ddd-shooter said:


> Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
> 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
> 
> Verse 12 is all about what we do.
> Verse 13 is all about what God does.
> Which is it?
> Perhaps we meet in the middle, just like most of scripture.
> Something as magnificent and complex as salvation will not fit into one little catchphrase-as much as we want it to.



Do you actually think that Paul is promoting a works salvation here? Of course not.


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## M80

centerpin fan said:


> I think the question is on point.  Also, speaking of "vain", Paul did say, "I will be able to boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain."  What does Paul mean by "in vain"?


No it's not on point. It's a hypothetical question that has no point. KJV.   Philippians 2:16"Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither labored in vain. 

That Paul's ministry in Philippi was effective and not in vain.


----------



## M80

ddd-shooter said:


> Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
> 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
> 
> Verse 12 is all about what we do.
> Verse 13 is all about what God does.
> Which is it?
> Perhaps we meet in the middle, just like most of scripture.
> Something as magnificent and complex as salvation will not fit into one little catchphrase-as much as we want it to.



Work out your own salvation
1.) how do you work out something you don't already have. 
2.) it means to express it. Show it on the outside, don't just keep it on the inside. 
3.)when we work out our salvation(our new life in christ) it shows forth what god has done on the inside to the outside"let your light so shine". 
4.) we work out what this chapter talks about
       1.)verse 2- being like minded, one accord 
       2.)verse 3-lowliness of mind
       3.)verse 4-be concerned of others


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## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> Work out your own salvation
> 1.) how do you work out something you don't already have.
> 2.) it means to express it. Show it on the outside, don't just keep it on the inside.
> 3.)when we work out our salvation(our new life in christ) it shows forth what god has done on the inside to the outside"let your light so shine".
> 4.) we work out what this chapter talks about
> 1.)verse 2- being like minded, one accord
> 2.)verse 3-lowliness of mind
> 3.)verse 4-be concerned of others



How does the phrase "with fear and trembling" fit in with your explanation above?

"It means to express it" -- with fear and trembling?

"Let your light so shine" -- with fear and trembling?


----------



## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> No it's not on point. It's a hypothetical question that has no point. KJV.   Philippians 2:16"Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither labored in vain.
> 
> That Paul's ministry in Philippi was effective and not in vain.



... but Paul specifically refers to "the day of Christ".  What day could that be?  It doesn't sound to me like he's talking about anything related to Philippi.


----------



## M80

centerpin fan said:


> ... but Paul specifically refers to "the day of Christ".  What day could that be?  It doesn't sound to me like he's talking about anything related to Philippi.



The day of Christ. This could be the rapture, if not its when Paul's race is run. When he sees the ones that was saved by the service he had done for The Lord, the ones saved while he was there they were to continue serving The Lord and being witnesses for The Lord. Being in vain would be they didn't apply themselves and let their lights shine

If The Lord leads me away from my church one day I sure wouldn't want to hear that they got lazy and quit being the witnesses they were while I was there. As a man I would maybe say, all those years I spent preaching there was in vain, but what rejoicing I would have to find out that one of my teenagers one day led someone to The Lord. What rejoicing


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## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> Being in vain would be they didn't apply themselves and let their lights shine



... with fear and trembling?


----------



## M80

centerpin fan said:


> How does the phrase "with fear and trembling" fit in with your explanation above?
> 
> "It means to express it" -- with fear and trembling?
> 
> "Let your light so shine" -- with fear and trembling?



Paul also uses "fear and trembling" in Ephesians 6:5 concerning servants to their masters. If they don't do their jobs they would be punished. Easy now let me explain. 

We are to be witnesses of The Lord, ambassadors unto him, if we don't work out our salvation to others does it not scare you what Kind of chastisement he could do to us. He is our father and Hebrews 12:6 "For whom The Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. Verse 7 "if Ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?


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## ddd-shooter

I simply pointed out-and I hope anyone can see-that both sides have their merit. 
I think the verse I quoted in Philipians lends itself to that. 
Perhaps things with God are not all hard-line doctrine as WE define it.


----------



## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> ... "if Ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons ...



What if you don't endure the chastening?


----------



## Israel

ddd-shooter said:


> I simply pointed out-and I hope anyone can see-that both sides have their merit.
> I think the verse I quoted in Philipians lends itself to that.
> Perhaps things with God are not all hard-line doctrine as WE define it.



AMEN!

I have often wondered if our doctrinaire attitudes...really have nothing to do with sound doctrine...at all.
Could it ever be that the reason we may be attracted to "doctrine"...and we all may resort to it now and again...sometimes less for a demonstration of Christ...but to prove a point, at least I know I have...and do.

But I believe there can come a point where we may even see a doctrinaire attitude could be in us that, unknowingly (till it is revealed) we may engage in an attempt to manipulate the Lord. At least, again, I can say...I have.

Without my usual long windedness...it is summed up most clearly when I discover I cannot twist the Lord's arm to "dislike" someone as I may. I can find many things said that, in my mind, I use to justify my antipathy...I can see their "sins"...I can see their doctrinal error, I can see their opposition to the Lord...until the Lord shows me it's all a sham...and all my biblical, scriptural, doctrinal, baloney I try to present as reasonable...still won't get him..."off my back".

Generally it falls out like this..."You're just peeved because they don't receive you the way you'd like...your just full of fleshly responses and religious priggishness, and I am not having any of it...REPENT"

Then, and only then...I may hear "would you like to see why I've got nothing against them? I think it's really gonna make you very happy when you do...and I'm glad to show you why as often as necessary"


----------



## hobbs27

centerpin fan said:


> ... but Paul specifically refers to "the day of Christ".  What day could that be?  It doesn't sound to me like he's talking about anything related to Philippi.



It looks like we've gone full circle on this topic and lots of minds have been changed.  

 Just thought I would answer this one...The day of Christ came in 70 AD. 
 Carry on.


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## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> Just thought I would answer this one...The day of Christ came in 70 AD.



Debatable.


----------



## Israel

centerpin fan said:


> ... but Paul specifically refers to "the day of Christ".  What day could that be?  It doesn't sound to me like he's talking about anything related to Philippi.


I see this: When all is fully disclosed...when the fullness of Christ is revealed...and some will be found, according to Paul's hope...standing.
I am convinced it has less to do with Paul's concern over possibly discovering his own fruitlessness, as that Christ may be glorified fully...in as many vessels chosen...


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> My bible doesn't say BOAST. It says rejoice. I can not boast for anything. The bible says as good as we can do is filthy rags. There is nothing good about me(my flesh). It's what's inside of me that is righteous.
> 
> These verses you give mean nothing about losing your salvation. Read it all. He is encouraging them to let their lights shine. When I preach and if someone gets saved I encourage them to so let their light shine that the labor we have done will effect others that they come in contact with so that I can REJOICE when I see others that have been led to The Lord from the work I've done for The Lord. Preachers want to see people lives change. When you practice shooting a bow or gun and you see no improvement you feel as if your practiced in vain. Preachers get down and out sometimes too



I think I like rejoice better than boast. It's actually from a Greek word kaúchÄ“ma which is a reason of glorying.
Word Definition  [ Thayer's | Strong's ]
Thayer's Definition
that of which one glories or can glory, matter or ground of glorying
    a glorying or boasting 

I will have reason to glory	ÎºÎ±Ï�Ï‡Î·Î¼Î±	kauchÄ“ma	 a BOAST	from kauchaomai

Boasting is one of those words we aren't suppose to do like swearing or calling thy brother a fool. My Mom would go crazy if we used certain words like swear, lie, or fool.


----------



## Artfuldodger

ddd-shooter said:


> Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
> 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
> 
> Verse 12 is all about what we do.
> Verse 13 is all about what God does.
> Which is it?
> Perhaps we meet in the middle, just like most of scripture.
> Something as magnificent and complex as salvation will not fit into one little catchphrase-as much as we want it to.



Borders on "election" doesn't it?
"lest, with all our advantages, we should come short," was a commentary not scripture. What we as Christians have as "advantages" is the Holy Spirit who guides us. He doesn't control us. Not unless we give up our free will at conversion. Words like "obey" and "work out" let me know that even though God, through the Holy Spirit does worketh his will, he expects or better yet demands us to "obey" him and "work out" our own salvation.

About the time I want to believe in predestination or OSAS, I run across verses that tell me different. I can find and I do read the verses that support election and OSAS but they still don't cancel the verses that require something from me. This lets me know I have free will and that it doesn't disappear at salvation. Words like obey, repent, follow, trust, love, forgive, believe, pray, be very strong, keep commandments, be transformed, etc. reminds me of the discipleship requirement.

Shooter, you are so right and I know you see "the Truth".
Salvation is more than a "moment" or "sinners prayer."


----------



## Artfuldodger

I have been very close a few times to believing in election & OSAS.
It sure would be nice if I did. I came very close after reading the book called Grace Walk by Steve McVey. 
Someone on here posted a review of another book called Follow Me by David Platt. When I first saw a video about the book I had mixed feelings. I didn't even believe in OSAS and something about this book upset me.
I haven't read this book and I may never read it. The book is about discipleship. The book is about what is required. Is something required from followers of Christ/disciples?
Is saying a prayer and receiving salvation "in a moment" really all that is required? Is it really that easy? I hope so. Is that the "hope" mentioned in the Bible? I do have "blessed hope."


----------



## Artfuldodger

Grace Walk is suppose to help people like me that are on a religious roller coaster. (it didn't)
reviews:
McVey has written an excellent book challenging the Christian to live in the power of God's grace instead of fleshly self-sufficiency.

Among the excellent points covered include
1. God's view of success differs from the world's view.
2. Definition of the flesh. Before God will work in and through us, we must stop relying on fleshly self-confidence.
3. The futility of trying to live the Christian life in fleshy self-effort.
4. Our relationship with Jesus Christ is based on grace, not rules and regulations. Church activity without Jesus is powerless.
5. The exchanged life vs. the flesh life and promises God gives us for victorious living.
6. Reasons to live based on a relationship with Jesus instead of Christian values.
7. Evangelism based on grace is the overflow of a joyous relationship with Jesus Christ.
8. Grace is characterized by calm confidence in God's sovereignty, timing, and methods.


In trying to undo the damage done by "salvation by works" theology, McVey goes a bit overboard, and at times seems to say that trying to please God is wrong. McVey misses the important MOTIVATIONAL dimension to a grace-centered theology. When I read the book, it seemed like McVey was primarily using God's grace to highlight all of the things we shouldn't try to do, because, after all, God is the one who makes everything happen.

http://www.amazon.com/Grace-Walk-Al...TF8&qid=1376103546&sr=8-1&keywords=grace+walk


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## Artfuldodger

Follow Me by David Platt;


----------



## Artfuldodger

Scores of men, women, and children culturally identify themselves  today as Christians who aren't Biblically followers of Christ. 
The sad part is they all had "assurance."

Follow Me book thread:
http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=739351&highlight=platt


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## Israel

Artfuldodger said:


> Scores of men, women, and children culturally identify themselves  today as Christians who aren't Biblically followers of Christ.
> The sad part is they all had "assurance."
> 
> Follow Me book thread:
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=739351&highlight=platt




What's that to you? You follow me...


----------



## Israel

Artfuldodger said:


> Grace Walk is suppose to help people like me that are on a religious roller coaster. (it didn't)
> reviews:
> McVey has written an excellent book challenging the Christian to live in the power of God's grace instead of fleshly self-sufficiency.
> 
> Among the excellent points covered include
> 1. God's view of success differs from the world's view.
> 2. Definition of the flesh. Before God will work in and through us, we must stop relying on fleshly self-confidence.
> 3. The futility of trying to live the Christian life in fleshy self-effort.
> 4. Our relationship with Jesus Christ is based on grace, not rules and regulations. Church activity without Jesus is powerless.
> 5. The exchanged life vs. the flesh life and promises God gives us for victorious living.
> 6. Reasons to live based on a relationship with Jesus instead of Christian values.
> 7. Evangelism based on grace is the overflow of a joyous relationship with Jesus Christ.
> 8. Grace is characterized by calm confidence in God's sovereignty, timing, and methods.
> 
> 
> In trying to undo the damage done by "salvation by works" theology, McVey goes a bit overboard, and at times seems to say that trying to please God is wrong. McVey misses the important MOTIVATIONAL dimension to a grace-centered theology. When I read the book, it seemed like McVey was primarily using God's grace to highlight all of the things we shouldn't try to do, because, after all, God is the one who makes everything happen.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Grace-Walk-Al...TF8&qid=1376103546&sr=8-1&keywords=grace+walk



I believe there's a scripture something like..."make every effort to find out what pleases the Lord".

What follows is a true story...it just never really happened.

I have a good friend who has a wonderful wife. She is a great cook, and this man invited my wife and I to dinner.
After dinner we were served a magnificent desert of strawberry cheesecake. I couldn't contain my delight and blurted out as it was brought to the table..."ah, my favorite!" and it tasted every bit as good as it looked.

Later, on our way home, my wife asked me, "why didn't I know that it was your favorite? Here I've been making you double chocolate brownies from my best recipe and you've always enjoyed it...and it's something I'm pretty good at making...I don't think I'd be very good at making Cheesecakes...I think they're pretty hard to make well..."

"Oh honey, you know I love your brownies, and they are about the best I've ever had...but really...you never asked me what my favorite was. And I am not about to tell you that your brownies aren't the best, or that I'd prefer something else, over them. I see how hard you work to please me. I really do love those brownies."

"Well", she said, "it just kinda hurts a little to have to find out from someone else what your favorite is...when I think I am the one that should already know these things, and like I said, cheesecake was never my forte"

When Jesus told his disciples that he would leave them his peace...and that he wanted them to have his joy, and that we should love one another as he loves us...do you think any of them wondered in himself "what's he talking about...?

Do you think that in those things of which he spoke they thought..."HUH? Peace, joy, love? Where is this coming from all of a sudden?...we have never seen these in you Jesus, all we see is restlessness, grim resolve, constant corrections of us, and endless strivings and worry about trying to do the right thing".

No, I am pretty convinced they had at least a notion, and probably a little excitement that all these things were going to be theirs, too. How and why? Only because they had received the call to come and be with him. Being "with" Jesus is really the only way to discover anything about him...and he may even take us to someone elses house for us to discover what his favorite things are...

I go to prepare a place for you, that where I AM, you may be, also.

Do we really want to know what heaven is like? We may have to die to our best recipes, our best interpretations of what everything "should" mean.
Have you seen a place where nothing is done of obligation and grim strivings? Have you seen a place where all is only joy and mercy...where grace so abounds...people can really mean it when they say "I delight to do your will!"

It's a house, a tabernacle, a place, a temple, where God and man meet in perfect harmonies...where God hears the choirs of men singing to his delight, and where men may hear that God has a great voice also.

Zep_3:17  The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing. 

We may "cock" our ear to the Lord. And in hope, discover what pleases him.
Tell me about what you have seen of this place, I long so desperately at times, for home.
And truly...it is in your telling, my greatest joys are confirmed, my deepest hopes are realized...it is not afar off, it is not hidden to remain undiscovered, and I am not alone, for I see and hear "Christ in you, the hope of glory".


----------



## gemcgrew

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." (1 John 2:19)


----------



## Israel

Gem, what does that mean?

I know what the words sound like, and what the dictionary tells me about them...and I even have my own understandings...but I am not being facetious, nor contrary, when I ask "what do you see in that?" 
I am interested...if for no other reason than I now see what a two edged blade we are given to wield.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." (1 John 2:19)



It means they never were believers to begin with.
What about the ones in Church who don't go out from us?
Are they all Christians or "of us?" 
I meet a lot of cultural christians, some even go to Church.
I'm not one to judge but by their fruit it appears that not everyone who calls himself a Christian is actually a Christian although they experienced salvation in a moment.
Some of them probably never had it and some lost it along the way.
Hopefully they will get called back before they die. Hopefully God will protect these lost sheep until they return.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> Do you actually think that Paul is promoting a works salvation here? Of course not.



No.  Paul is promoting obedience from a child of God, to their heavenly Father to become a slave to.


----------



## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> It looks like we've gone full circle on this topic and lots of minds have been changed.
> 
> Just thought I would answer this one...The day of Christ came in 70 AD.
> Carry on.



Biblically, the phrase 'day of Christ' is used in reference to more than one day.


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> I have been very close a few times to believing in election & OSAS.It sure would be nice if I did. I came very close after reading the book called Grace Walk by Steve McVey.
> Someone on here posted a review of another book called Follow Me by David Platt. When I first saw a video about the book I had mixed feelings. I didn't even believe in OSAS and something about this book upset me.
> I haven't read this book and I may never read it. The book is about discipleship. The book is about what is required. Is something required from followers of Christ/disciples?
> Is saying a prayer and receiving salvation "in a moment" really all that is required? Is it really that easy? I hope so. Is that the "hope" mentioned in the Bible? I do have "blessed hope."



Take the easy way out, just live for Christ rather than being concerned with  acronyms and modern day theologians.
.


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> It means they never were believers to begin with.
> What about the ones in Church who don't go out from us?
> Are they all Christians or "of us?"
> I meet a lot of cultural christians, some even go to Church.
> I'm not one to judge but by their fruit it appears that not everyone who calls himself a Christian is actually a Christian although they experienced salvation in a moment.
> Some of them probably never had it and some lost it along the way.
> Hopefully they will get called back before they die. Hopefully God will protect these lost sheep until they return.



Really?  Does that verse actually say that?
.


----------



## Israel

Ronnie T said:


> Really?  Does that verse actually say that?
> .



It makes me wonder why John got to hear it. And then, to write it.
It makes me wonder if it was in response to a need for us to choose amongst ourselves who is approved, and who is not...who is in...or who is out?

Or could it be that John got to hear it because he was so brokenhearted before the Lord...crying out in so many "why's, Lord?" 

"Why could someone say they know you and seem to depart? Why could my brothers suffering the afflictions of Christ, the same things I saw in you...now not be considered worth continuing with? Can there be any comfort for the ones who find them despised now by those with whom they once seemed to share life?"

"Why...Lord...O, God why?"

I am more convinced of the latter, than the former...and I am also more convinced that those receiving this letter from their apostle, because they knew this apostle...in his gentleness and meekness...because they were "with" this apostle through his sufferings on behalf of the Lord's body...would never be able to consider these words as something like "don't worry boys...we're still the "in" crowd, those others who left...well...they just never made the grade..."

How careful we must be in the "of us"...for I fear we can easily be won to thinking we are speaking in the Lord...when all we are doing is using the "of us"...the club mentality...to, by seeking strength by numbers, think we can decide who the "we" and "them" are.
And not surprisingly...the "we", no matter who we can get to join our "we", always seem to be the ones getting it "right".


----------



## gemcgrew

Israel said:


> Gem, what does that mean?
> 
> I know what the words sound like, and what the dictionary tells me about them...and I even have my own understandings...but I am not being facetious, nor contrary, when I ask "what do you see in that?"
> I am interested...if for no other reason than I now see what a two edged blade we are given to wield.



If a person truly denounces the faith, that person has never been a true Christian in the first place. That person may have appeared to be a believer at some time, as was the case with Judas, Ananias, Sapphira, etc. Those who leave Christ, never truly knew Christ. Anyone who can leave Christ, will.

I understand that a Christian may stumble in a sinful way and perhaps even in such a way as to appear to be a non-Christian. When God causes a person to have faith in Christ, it is impossible to lose the faith. "My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." (John 10:29)

"Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:37-39)

And Israel, that two edged blade cuts both ways, for salvation and for condemnation.


----------



## Israel

gemcgrew said:


> If a person truly denounces the faith, that person has never been a true Christian in the first place. That person may have appeared to be a believer at some time, as was the case with Judas, Ananias, Sapphira, etc. Those who leave Christ, never truly knew Christ. Anyone who can leave Christ, will.
> 
> I understand that a Christian may stumble in a sinful way and perhaps even in such a way as to appear to be a non-Christian. When God causes a person to have faith in Christ, it is impossible to lose the faith. "My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." (John 10:29)
> 
> "Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:37-39)
> 
> And Israel, that two edged blade cuts both ways, for salvation and for condemnation.


 I am glad you said that. And especially glad you said...
_that_.

Amen


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> Really?  Does that verse actually say that?
> .



They went out from us, but they were NEVER of us;

Now  that verse doesn't really say "never"

Not really a good verse to support OSAS but let's say for arguments sake that it is possible that every person who believes they are saved/converted/received salvation in a moment doesn't.
Maybe everyone doesn't get saved in a moment. "They were never of us."


----------



## Artfuldodger

I'm not real sure why people aren't saved in a moment but I'm pretty sure some people are. 
My argument isn't how people receive salvation but how they lose it.
I would say that in a Church we have some lost souls, some who believe they have salvation, some who do have salvation, and some who have lost their salvation.
How would one do this losing salvation thing? No one can pluck them from God's hand. 
Nothing can separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Love of God, God's love. God so loved the world. God wishes no one to perish.  
God did something really great to show his love to whoever.
The whole concept of Christianity is based on God's love.  
Many, many verses about God's love.


So what is it that would make someone not love God back? What could possibly make someone never believe in God's love to send his son? Not everyone will heed the call. Not everyone who heeds the call will Standfast to the end. Not everyone will love their enemies. Not everyone will return God's love. Not everyone will keep their faith. Not everyone will forgive others.
It's easy to love people who love you. Try loving people who hate you.
You want have to worry about God's love or no one snatching you from his hand. What you might have to worry about is "your love."
Your disobedience. Your turning away. I've seen Brides lose this once precious love before.

 1 Corinthians 13:1-13 
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; ... 

You can have a lot of attributes and the love of God, but if you don't return God's love by helping and forgiving others, you have nothing.


----------



## M80

gemcgrew said:


> If a person truly denounces the faith, that person has never been a true Christian in the first place. That person may have appeared to be a believer at some time, as was the case with Judas, Ananias, Sapphira, etc. Those who leave Christ, never truly knew Christ. Anyone who can leave Christ, will.
> 
> I understand that a Christian may stumble in a sinful way and perhaps even in such a way as to appear to be a non-Christian. When God causes a person to have faith in Christ, it is impossible to lose the faith. "My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." (John 10:29)
> 
> "Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:37-39)
> 
> And Israel, that two edged blade cuts both ways, for salvation and for condemnation.



A big Amen brother


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm not real sure why people aren't saved in a moment but I'm pretty sure some people are.
> My argument isn't how people receive salvation but how they lose it.
> I would say that in a Church we have some lost souls, some who believe they have salvation, some who do have salvation, and some who have lost their salvation.
> How would one do this losing salvation thing? No one can pluck them from God's hand.
> Nothing can separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
> Love of God, God's love. God so loved the world. God wishes no one to perish.
> God did something really great to show his love to whoever.
> The whole concept of Christianity is based on God's love.
> Many, many verses about God's love.
> 
> 
> So what is it that would make someone not love God back? What could possibly make someone never believe in God's love to send his son? Not everyone will heed the call. Not everyone who heeds the call will Standfast to the end. Not everyone will love their enemies. Not everyone will return God's love. Not everyone will keep their faith. Not everyone will forgive others.
> It's easy to love people who love you. Try loving people who hate you.
> You want have to worry about God's love or no one snatching you from his hand. What you might have to worry about is "your love."
> Your disobedience. Your turning away. I've seen Brides lose this once precious love before.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 13:1-13
> If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; ...
> 
> You can have a lot of attributes and the love of God, but if you don't return God's love by helping and forgiving others, you have nothing.



Brother you are here, then there, you are being tossed around by what ever wind blows you. Once you are born again, you have eternal life John 3:16. To lose salvation is death. How can you die if you have eternal life. 
Remember, Jesus told us to come as a child, this stuff isn't difficult to understand. Man makes things difficult


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> If a person truly denounces the faith, that person has never been a true Christian in the first place.



Wow, that is a very good way to justify "Eternal Salvation."
You should pass that on to the other OSAS believers. 
That's right up there with "If a person was never elected, he never had a chance." 
So we've got people who will be elected and people who won't be elected. I can understand that concept. What I can't understand is people who believe they are elected but only find out years later after attending Church, praying, following, worshipping that they were never called. God played a dirty trick on them. He made them think they were saved only to not be. I believe God is the Great Potter but I can't see God doing this to a person.

Yes I believe someone could denounce God. The easiest way to denounce God isn't with words but actions. Stop praying. Stop being obedient. Worst of all stop loving.
Why would one think a professed Christian couldn't denounce God? You denounce God, he doesn't denounce you. You return the gift.


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> Brother you are here, then there, you are being tossed around by what ever wind blows you. Once you are born again, you have eternal life John 3:16. To lose salvation is death. How can you die if you have eternal life.
> Remember, Jesus told us to come as a child, this stuff isn't difficult to understand. Man makes things difficult



I agree it is simple to understand. Salvation is simple. It doesn't mean it is easy. If it was easy everyone will be in Heaven. There would be no verses about the path being narrow, entering the eye of a needle(small entrance in the city wall), Many will say, etc.
Yes the Word is very simple only men make it hard.
You believe Jesus died for your sins. You believe Jesus taught the Kingdom of God. You do the will of God.
It doesn't get any simpler. 

Now the IF'S:
(1 Corinthians 15:2 NIV) By this gospel you are saved, IF you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

(1 Corinthians 6:9-10 NIV) [9] Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders [10] nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

(1 John 2:3-6 NIV) [3] We know that we have come to know him IF we obey his commands. [4] The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [5] But IF anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: [6] Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> I agree it is simple to understand. Salvation is simple. It doesn't mean it is easy. If it was easy everyone will be in Heaven. There would be no verses about the path being narrow, entering the eye of a needle(small entrance in the city wall), Many will say, etc.
> Yes the Word is very simple only men make it hard.
> You believe Jesus died for your sins. You believe Jesus taught the Kingdom of God. You do the will of God.
> It doesn't get any simpler.
> 
> Now the IF'S:
> (1 Corinthians 15:2 NIV) By this gospel you are saved, IF you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
> 
> (1 Corinthians 6:9-10 NIV) [9] Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders [10] nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
> 
> (1 John 2:3-6 NIV) [3] We know that we have come to know him IF we obey his commands. [4] The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [5] But IF anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: [6] Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
> 
> Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
> 
> Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.



You keep all the scriptures important.  John 3:16 is not the Gospel.  And the Gospel cannot be summed up in that one verse.  If it could, there would only be one verse in John 3.
AND STOP BEING SO CONCERNED ABOUT PERFECTING YOUR SALVATION.  Christ will do that.  

1Cor 15:Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.


----------



## Artfuldodger

To me being "born again" means of "water and the Word." I guess that's my difference from some other believers. To each his own.

So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in Him, If you abide in My word, you are truly My disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. John 8:31 32

Saying a sinner's prayer in a "moment" is certainly a good place to start. It takes more than believing in Jesus with your mind.
You can accept Jesus all you want.  But it is God that accepts and chooses us by our obedience to the new birth.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> You keep all the scriptures important.  John 3:16 is not the Gospel.  And the Gospel cannot be summed up in that one verse.  If it could, there would only be one verse in John 3.
> AND STOP BEING SO CONCERNED ABOUT PERFECTING YOUR SALVATION.  Christ will do that.
> 
> 1Cor 15:Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.



Amen to that. What is the verse that talks about teaching a different gospel?
 Galatians 1:8-9 
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. 

One only needs to read some Bible verses about the Kingdom of God.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> AND STOP BEING SO CONCERNED ABOUT PERFECTING YOUR SALVATION.  Christ will do that.



Now that is the best thing I've heard all day. Amen to the Comforter and the Kingdom of God.

Matthew 6:33 
But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Romans 2:6-8 
He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.


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## Artfuldodger

This verse came to me about being reborn;
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


----------



## gordon 2

“â€Ž"You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.” 
â€• Ann Lamott


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Saying a sinner's prayer in a "moment" is certainly a good place to start. It takes more than believing in Jesus with your mind.



When you say sinner's prayer, are you talking about the quote after me and raise your hand and you're saved? 

 I saw a preacher do that once, and I cant judge those that God has saved and those He hasn't but if there's anyone thats suspect it was that guy for thinking he get tell someone what to pray so God could save them.


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> If a person truly denounces the faith, that person has never been a true Christian in the first place. That person may have appeared to be a believer at some time, as was the case with Judas, Ananias, Sapphira, etc. Those who leave Christ, never truly knew Christ. Anyone who can leave Christ, will.
> 
> I understand that a Christian may stumble in a sinful way and perhaps even in such a way as to appear to be a non-Christian. When God causes a person to have faith in Christ, it is impossible to lose the faith. "My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." (John 10:29)
> 
> "Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:37-39)
> 
> And Israel, that two edged blade cuts both ways, for salvation and for condemnation.



Your theology has holes in both cases.  First, John 10:29 doesn't apply to the person in God's hand.  Rather, it applies to someone taking us away from God.  The issue is NOT whether someone can snatch us away... it's "can that person choose to walk away?"

Second, the context of Romans 8:37-39 pertains to many hardships endured by Christians.  No earthly situation is so bad that God's love can be separated from His children.  The context is NOT referring to their salvation.

Both passages have been erroneously used for years by those who support OSAS.


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> Your theology has holes in both cases.  First, John 10:29 doesn't apply to the person in God's hand.  Rather, it applies to someone taking us away from God.  The issue is NOT whether someone can snatch us away... it's "can that person choose to walk away?"
> 
> Second, the context of Romans 8:37-39 pertains to many hardships endured by Christians.  No earthly situation is so bad that God's love can be separated from His children.  The context is NOT referring to their salvation.
> 
> Both passages have been erroneously used for years by those who support OSAS.



I understand your position. Just keep trusting in yourself. I can no longer do it.


----------



## 04ctd

mwilliams80 said:


> @ ArtFul:  you are here, then there, you are being tossed around by what ever wind blows you... Jesus told us to come as a child, this stuff isn't difficult to understand. Man makes things difficult



Art, brother, I can't keep up with whatever "flavor of the day" book you are reading.

i would pray, read the Bible, pray for understanding, then read some more Bible.

it seems you are blown by every breeze to another view point. be steady & firm in your faith.



gemcgrew said:


> Do you actually think that Paul is promoting a works salvation here? Of course not.




to me, the "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" means we are to read our Bible: 
in our house, in our pew, with our family, and we are to be assured in our  own salvation, and we are to inspect our opinions of salvation based on scriptural guidance...

and we are to educate ourselves on our salvation with "fear and trembling" because one day...we will answer to an Almighty God for how we have interpreted the Bible...and how we have conducted our own salvation.


OT Fear:   reverential respect & trust...not "scared" fear...but conducting ourselves with the awareness who we are in relation to God...


----------



## gemcgrew

04ctd said:


> to me, the "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" means we are to read our Bible:
> in our house, in our pew, with our family, and we are to be assured in our  own salvation, and we are inspect our opinions of salvation based on scriptural guidance...


I can see that. What God works inwardly, the believer works outwardly. 
"Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it." (1 Thess. 5:24)
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)


04ctd said:


> OT Fear:   reverential respect & trust...not "scared" fear...but conducting ourselves with the awareness who we are in relation to God...


Indeed.


----------



## Artfuldodger

04ctd said:


> Art, brother, I can't keep up with whatever "flavor of the day" book you are reading.
> i would pray, read the Bible, pray for understanding, then read some more Bible.
> it seems you are blown by every breeze to another view point. be steady & firm in your faith.



It was only two books provided by fellow forumites. One promotes grace and grace alone is all that is required for salvation.
The other book promotes salvation is of Grace alone but must be proven by discipleship in the form of obedience to God, love of God, and love of fellow men.

Two very different beliefs with the one leading to eternal death if it is wrong. I don't want to be wrong. There will be only one "breeze", "light", or "way".
So yes it is of utmost importance to me to find "the way" as it is also mentioned in the Bible.


----------



## Artfuldodger

What I'm really interested in is the Kingdom of God that isn't of this world.
 John 18:36 
Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” 

John 3:13  
No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. 

That's the Kingdom I'm trying to get to. I'm accepting all ideas on how to get there. What does the Bible say about who will not inherit the Kingdom of God?


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> What I'm really interested in it the Kingdom of God that isn't of this world.
> John 18:36
> Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”
> 
> John 3:13
> No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
> 
> That's the Kingdom I'm trying to get to. I'm accepting all ideas on how to get there. What does the Bible say about who will not inherit the Kingdom of God?



Sneaky!


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> I understand your position. Just keep trusting in yourself. I can no longer do it.



Ah... the old "it's on you" line.  There are three ways you can look at this issue.  One... God does everything and the individual does nothing.  Two... man does everything and God does nothing.  Three (a hybrid of the two)... God and man both have a role to play in salvation.  

You erroneously believe those speaking against OSAS are in camp #2 when in reality, they are in camp #3.  God is not going to "spiritually rape" a person - making him/her do something against his/her will.  He will allow individuals to make a choice regarding their salvation.  The idea of a person "never being a child of God in the first place" is an idea which is never stated in the bible... it's been invented by proponents of OSAS.  If man cannot choose to loose his salvation, then man doesn't have that choice in the first place.  Thus, the belief in predestination.

BTW... I notice you didn't address what I cited about John 10 and Romans 8.


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> What I'm really interested in is the Kingdom of God that isn't of this world.
> John 18:36
> Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”
> 
> John 3:13
> No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
> 
> That's the Kingdom I'm trying to get to. I'm accepting all ideas on how to get there. What does the Bible say about who will not inherit the Kingdom of God?



The way
John 14:  Jesus said unto them, I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man cometh to the father but by me


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> Ah... the old "it's on you" line.  There are three ways you can look at this issue.  One... God does everything and the individual does nothing.  Two... man does everything and God does nothing.  Three (a hybrid of the two)... God and man both have a role to play in salvation.
> 
> You erroneously believe those speaking against OSAS are in camp #2 when in reality, they are in camp #3.  God is not going to "spiritually rape" a person - making him/her do something against his/her will.  He will allow individuals to make a choice regarding their salvation.  The idea of a person "never being a child of God in the first place" is an idea which is never stated in the bible... it's been invented by proponents of OSAS.  If man cannot choose to loose his salvation, then man doesn't have that choice in the first place.  Thus, the belief in predestination.
> 
> BTW... I notice you didn't address what I cited about John 10 and Romans 8.



Well, it is good to know that Pelagianism is alive and well in Alabama. To liken regeneration to rape, speaks volumes to me. Again, I stand by post #633. You reject it in order to make room for self. Save yourself.


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> The way
> John 14:  Jesus said unto them, I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man cometh to the father but by me



Amen to Jesus for being the way. Jesus' teachings focused on the Kingdom of God and how to get there.


----------



## Ronnie T

Comment #633.



gemcgrew said:


> If a person truly denounces the faith, that person has never been a true Christian in the first place. That person may have appeared to be a believer at some time, as was the case with Judas, Ananias, Sapphira, etc. Those who leave Christ, never truly knew Christ. Anyone who can leave Christ, will.
> There's no evidence either of the above people were never believers in Christ.  As a matter of fact, quite the contrary.  There's every indication that Ananias and Sapphira were indeed believers.
> And Revelation 1 and 2 make it clear that believing Christians' salvation was in jeopardy.  Any claim that Jesus was there speaking to unbelievers 'in the church' goes much further than simply "being mistaken".
> 
> I understand that a Christian may stumble in a sinful way and perhaps even in such a way as to appear to be a non-Christian. When God causes a person to have faith in Christ, it is impossible to lose the faith. "My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." (John 10:29)
> 
> "Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."It's a mistake to believe, and teach, that Paul's words here are doctrinal and are speaking to a person not having the ability to 'fall away'.
> For you, or any others, to believe such a thing would require you to look at hundreds of other scripture through mirrors rather than taking them as they are.
> 
> (Romans 8:37-39)
> 
> We Christians have already been warned to not forget what happened to the people of Israel who were freed from slavery in Egypt.  Most all of them were denied entrance into the land "Promised" to them.
> 
> There are so many people today who "stand upon" a particular scripture.  Why is that?  There isn't one particular scripture that I stand upon.  I stand upon Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.  So should all Christians.
> John 3:16 is a sentence spoken by Jesus to a man who came representing all Jews who did not believe Jesus was the Messiah that was to come.  It is not a doctrinal statement of instruction intended to address the limited requirements of mankind as they respond to Jesus' death and resurrection.
> .
> 
> And Israel, that two edged blade cuts both ways, for salvation and for condemnation.


----------



## barryl

Artfuldodger said:


> What I'm really interested in is the Kingdom of God that isn't of this world.
> John 18:36
> Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”
> 
> John 3:13
> No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
> 
> That's the Kingdom I'm trying to get to. I'm accepting all ideas on how to get there. What does the Bible say about who will not inherit the Kingdom of God?


Ever told a lie? Rev. 21:27, 22:15 KJV AV


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> There's no evidence either of the above people were never believers in Christ. As a matter of fact, quite the contrary. There's every indication that Ananias and Sapphira were indeed believers.


What are you basing that upon? Church attendance? "There is no fear of God before their eyes." (Romans 3:18)


Ronnie T said:


> It's a mistake to believe, and teach, that Paul's words here are doctrinal and are speaking to a person not having the ability to 'fall away'.
> For you, or any others, to believe such a thing would require you to look at hundreds of other scripture through mirrors rather than taking them as they are.


The mistake is attributing salvation, in any way, shape or form, to man. "Salvation is of the Lord".


Ronnie T said:


> I stand upon Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. So should all Christians.


Then quit telling me what I must do to secure my salvation. Christ alone!


----------



## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> Comment #633.





gemcgrew said:


> What are you basing that upon? Church attendance? "There is no fear of God before their eyes." (Romans 3:18) I base it on the context of the subject scripture!
> 
> The mistake is attributing salvation, in any way, shape or form, to man. "Salvation is of the Lord".  The mistake is ignoring the whole message of the Gospel.  Of course salvation is of the Lord.
> 
> Then quit telling me what I must do to secure my salvation. Christ alone!


 I've never suggested anything other than what scripture says!

You're playing word games again.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> I've never suggested anything other than what scripture says!
> 
> You're playing word games again.




Let us narrow the words. Ronnie, is salvation in any way dependent upon what you did, are doing or will do? Did you obtain it or are you obtaining it?


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> Well, it is good to know that Pelagianism is alive and well in Alabama. To liken regeneration to rape, speaks volumes to me. Again, I stand by post #633. You reject it in order to make room for self. Save yourself.



Regeneration as the bible teaches it is not spiritual rape... but it IS "spiritual rape" if a person has no choice in the matter.  If I'm a child of God based on my choice to accept Christ as my savior, then I should rightfully be able to walk away from that relationship if I so choose.  To refuse me that opportunity means God does things to me that are against my will.  Wait... I forgot that means that I never would have been a believer in the first place... right?


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> Let us narrow the words. Ronnie, is salvation in any way dependent upon what you did, are doing or will do? Did you obtain it or are you obtaining it?



Not Ronnie, but answer your own question with these two passages.

Acts 2:40 - "And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation."

Philippians 2:12 - Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling...


----------



## Israel

The Word of God has within himself all power to salvation.
When God says "save yourself"...it is the power of God in those very words that wakes us, and empowers us, to act.
Gal 1:15  But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 
Gal 1:16  To reveal his Son in me...


Some said it thundered...some said it was the voice of an angel...but some...heard God.


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> Regeneration as the bible teaches it is not spiritual rape... but it IS "spiritual rape" if a person has no choice in the matter.  If I'm a child of God based on my choice to accept Christ as my savior, then I should rightfully be able to walk away from that relationship if I so choose.  To refuse me that opportunity means God does things to me that are against my will.  Wait... I forgot that means that I never would have been a believer in the first place... right?


Right


----------



## Artfuldodger

Bama4me said:


> Not Ronnie, but answer your own question with these two passages.



Or these passages:

No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. (1 John 2:23)

And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’ (Acts 2:21)

To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” (Acts 10:43)

I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. (John 12:46)

For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” (Romans 10:11)

Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. (2 John 1:9)

The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price. (Revelation 22:17)


----------



## Artfuldodger

One more verse to ponder:
"You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him." (Luke 12:40 NIV)

Why must an elected person be ready if nothing is required of him?


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> One more verse to ponder:
> "You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him." (Luke 12:40 NIV)
> 
> Why must an elected person be ready if nothing is required of him?



History didnt record one Christian death when the Son of man made his appearance. They took heed to His warnings.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> History didnt record one Christian death when the Son of man made his appearance. They took heed to His warnings.



But the question is, why did they need to take heed? What was the purpose of the warnings? Why does a Christian need any type of a warning? 
Why did Jesus continue to demand new followers to do things? 

Luke 12:40, was this the second coming in 70 AD?
Even if the second coming was in 70 AD, how does it change the warnings and the commandments of Jesus?


----------



## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> Or these passages:
> 
> No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. (1 John 2:23)
> 
> And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’ (Acts 2:21)
> 
> To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” (Acts 10:43)
> 
> I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. (John 12:46)
> 
> For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” (Romans 10:11)
> 
> Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. (2 John 1:9)
> 
> The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price. (Revelation 22:17)



Art... I think we're wasting our time citing passages from Scripture.  Throughout the thread, few attempts have been made by supporters of OSAS to offer possible alternatives to the passages like we're citing.  At best, some say "look at this other passage."  Problem is, they don't answer the question of "what does this passage mean"?  It's a very nice way to sidestep and deflect very difficult questions.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> Or these passages:
> 
> No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. (1 John 2:23)
> 
> And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’ (Acts 2:21)
> 
> To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” (Acts 10:43)
> 
> I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. (John 12:46)
> 
> For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” (Romans 10:11)
> 
> Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. (2 John 1:9)
> 
> The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price. (Revelation 22:17)


Art, I have no issue with these scriptures. Scripture is clear on who the "everyone", "whoever" and "whosoever" are.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Let's back up to another caution verse 35:
"Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning,

For us non preterist believers and the Chrisians before 70 AD, how many of us are truly heeding the cautions and warnings? 

Are we all dressed for "Action?" Was everyone before 70 AD dressed for action?
If every action a Christian or a non-Christian is the work of God then why are there so many warnings from Jesus?

If you truly believe that God elects certain people and keeps certain people saved then please disregard all of Jesus' commandments in under the New Covenant. Don't worry about heeding any warnings or obeying any of Jesus' commandments.
Jesus might not be coming again anyway.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> But the question is, why did they need to take heed? What was the purpose of the warnings? Why does a Christian need any type of a warning?
> Why did Jesus continue to demand new followers to do things?
> 
> Luke 12:40, was this the second coming in 70 AD?
> Even if the second coming was in 70 AD, how does it change the warnings and the commandments of Jesus?




LUKE13 
1There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.

2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish..

There was a great day of Judgement coming on Israel... The converted Christians escaped..according to history.
 Im not helping the theory of election am I? Oh well just calling it the way I see it.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Art, I have no issue with these scriptures. Scripture is clear on who the "everyone", "whoever" and "whosoever" are.



Will you also add "no one?"
As in "no one who denies?"

Will you also add "let the one?"
As in "let the one who hears?"
"let the one who is thirsty?"
"let the one who desires?"

If you can add all of those too then I will agree the Gospel of Jesus and all of his teachings including the Great Commandments and the Great Commission aren't the truth or the "way."

Then I'll have to believe the New Covenant's purpose is only provided to show the "Elect" how to provide "responsibility" to God. Even though showing this responsibility isn't from the individual elected person himself. Everything is from God.
This thread should offer some new "Election" believers if nothing else.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> LUKE13
> 1There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
> 
> 2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
> 
> 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
> 
> 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
> 
> 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish..
> 
> There was a great day of Judgement coming on Israel... The converted Christians escaped..according to history.
> Im not helping the theory of election am I? Oh well just calling it the way I see it.



You're not helping "OSAS" either. Those verses require the work of "repentance." Is it only Grace or not? Surely it isn't something required of us in the form of "repentance" or "believing" or "loving" or "obeying" or "forgiving." 
Please explain all of the verses that contain these works, requirements, commandments of "US" and then explain how they pertain to OSAS/election.

If you don't feel comfortable calling those words I used "requirements" call them "responsibilities" or "fruits."


----------



## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> You're not helping "OSAS" either. Those verses require the work of "repentance." Is it only Grace or not? Surely it isn't something required of us in the form of "repentance" or "believing" or "loving" or "obeying" or "forgiving."
> Please explain all of the verses that contain these works, requirements, commandments of "US" and then explain how they pertain to OSAS/election.
> 
> If you don't feel comfortable calling those words I used "requirements" call them "responsibilities" or "fruits."


Nice observation.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Let me ask in a simpler way. Is it all from God or not? Do I have to believe and repent? If this is true then you've already taken the "all from God" out of the picture. You've added something I as a man must do. Therefore, since you've added requirements of me, why is beyond belief that I must follow the New Testament Commandments of Jesus?


----------



## Artfuldodger

My salvation starts with a calling, then believing, then repenting, then being born again, then obeying God. 
It is from the Grace of God. The Holy Spirit is my guide. Jesus died for my sins.
None of those three entities forced me to believe or force my obedience or force my believing, or force my faith.

As much as I wish I didn't have to do anything, the New covenant tells me differently. I'll follow it out of love and fear of God.


----------



## M80

Are we not purchased by Jesus through his blood. The bible says in Corinthians that we are not our own. That means we dont own ourselves. If he owns us and bought us, we belong to him.
What about salvation being a gift. His blood paid for us. He done the buying, and then on top of that, he gave us the best gift in the world, we didn't even have to work or pay for it, we just accepted him when he offered himself to us. What a love story


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> You're not helping "OSAS" either. Those verses require the work of "repentance." Is it only Grace or not? Surely it isn't something required of us in the form of "repentance" or "believing" or "loving" or "obeying" or "forgiving."
> Please explain all of the verses that contain these works, requirements, commandments of "US" and then explain how they pertain to OSAS/election.
> 
> If you don't feel comfortable calling those words I used "requirements" call them "responsibilities" or "fruits."



So repentance is a work? Changing ones mind...gaining knowledge of something never known before to an individual is a work? 

Loving is done without work..it comes natural to those that have Christ abiding within. God is love.

 Believing is Faith...God makes Himself known to us...I dont force myself to have faith

 Obedience isnt a work that is required for salvation but is done by hearing...those that have an ear let them hear. Fear the Lord! You will obey as Children or face chastisement betimes...

 Forgiving is another act that cannot be helped by Christians but is not a requirement for salvation...Again when Christ abides within...it is through Him we are able to forgive our brothers/sisters.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> So repentance is a work? Changing ones mind...gaining knowledge of something never known before to an individual is a work?
> 
> Loving is done without work..it comes natural to those that have Christ abiding within. God is love.
> 
> Believing is Faith...God makes Himself known to us...I dont force myself to have faith
> 
> Obedience isnt a work that is required for salvation but is done by hearing...those that have an ear let them hear. Fear the Lord! You will obey as Children or face chastisement betimes...
> 
> Forgiving is another act that cannot be helped by Christians but is not a requirement for salvation...Again when Christ abides within...it is through Him we are able to forgive our brothers/sisters.



They are works if they are something Man must do. If I do something mentally or physically, it is something I do.
It is an action done by man. 
Either all of our actions are controlled by God or we have some input as individuals. We can be guided by the Holy Spirit. We can also be controlled by Satan. We can even let our outer man influence our actions. 
We can't always blame our actions on another entity. We must at some point take part of the blame whether good or bad.


----------



## gtparts

683 posts later and no one has really zoned in on the nature of God, as regards His covenants. Even when man falls short in upholding his end of the covenant, God never backs up, never crawfishes, never abandons or goes back on His word.
If He did, it could only be concluded that God's word is not trustworthy. May it never be said that God doesn't keep His promises!

Everything about salvation is only provided by God. Regeneration is from God. Election (however one defines it) is from God. Conviction of sin is from God. The capacity to repent comes from God. The ability to submit comes from God. Salvation is from God.
What God does is allow us to passively agree, where our nature is diametrically opposed to such agreement. To submit is to confirm our complete dependence on Him, to give Him the praise and glory He rightfully deserves, by virtue of who He is, the one true God.

Is there room or reason to believe that Scripture teaches anything else? Semantics aside, all the above thoughts and actions find their origin in God alone. 

We've danced around OSAS, ISAS, election (what does that mean to you?), regeneration, falling away (again,what does that mean to you?), and the temporary/permanent qualities of salvation.

Well, I remain unmoved. The psalmist, David, pleaded for God to "restore unto me the joy of thy salvation." Thy salvation! The joy is ours to possess or, by our sinful thoughts and actions, to have withheld, but the salvation is His alone,... for Him to keep in our stead... for us... on our behalf. The salvation we receive is ours, but much like a bank, He holds the eternal reality in trust. Brother and sister, it is safe in His hands. While we can affect our joyous pleasure of that salvation in this temporal life, it is nothing to boast in, for we only participate in it because of the mercy and grace of God. 

The choice is to each of us: toe-to-toe or hand-in-hand. Are we Christians? We will be known by our love (or lack thereof) for each other. Let us set aside our contentious words and our prideful hearts, lest we disgrace Him and ourselves.


----------



## gemcgrew

gtparts said:


> Well, I remain unmoved. The psalmist, David, pleaded for God to "restore unto me the joy of thy salvation." Thy salvation! The joy is ours to possess or, by our sinful thoughts and actions, to have withheld, but the salvation is His alone,... for Him to keep in our stead... for us... on our behalf. The salvation we receive is ours, but much like a bank, He holds the eternal reality in trust. Brother and sister, it is safe in His hands. While we can affect our joyous pleasure of that salvation in this temporal life, it is nothing to boast in, for we only participate in it because of the mercy and grace of God.


Well said. How miserable David was for several months, "When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long. For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer."

But God is merciful, "And the LORD sent Nathan unto David."


----------



## ddd-shooter

gemcgrew said:


> Let us narrow the words. Ronnie, is salvation in any way dependent upon what you did, are doing or will do? Did you obtain it or are you obtaining it?



Yes and yes. 
Did the children of Israel have to do anything to escape during Passover? 
Yes- apply the blood sacrifice. No- simply trust in the one who provided  
If you have no choice after salvation and everything comes from God, why do the elect still sin?


----------



## gemcgrew

ddd-shooter said:


> Yes and yes.
> Did the children of Israel have to do anything to escape during Passover?
> Yes- apply the blood sacrifice. No- simply trust in the one who provided


The instruction was given only to the chosen. By faith, they followed instruction. Israel was preserved from death, Egypt suffered death "and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead."




ddd-shooter said:


> If you have no choice after salvation and everything comes from God, why do the elect still sin?


Because they are still sinners. Sin in still present and will remain until we die. Although it remains, it no longer reigns.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> The instruction was given only to the chosen. By faith, they followed instruction. Israel was preserved from death, Egypt suffered death "and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead."
> 
> 
> 
> Because they are still sinners. Sin in still present and will remain until we die. Although it remains, it no longer reigns.



Why did Israel die in the wilderness rather than in the "PROMISED land"?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> Why did Israel die in the wilderness rather than in the "PROMISED land"?



The Bible says, ‘The Lord's anger was kindled
against Israel and He made them wander in the wilderness for forty years, until all the generation that had done evil in the
sight of the Lord was dead (Numbers 32:13). The reason the Lord led them around in circles for forty years, is because
way back in those days, they were a stubborn, disobedient, rebellious, unfaithful, wicked, stiff-necked people, who
complained incessantly and were constantly ungrateful for the good things the Lord did for them.

God gave them
everything they wanted and they still complained about their hardships (Numbers 11:1), and finally God’s anger towards
them came to a point where He disowned them and threatened to wipe them out (Exodus 32:7 to 11). They ended up
bringing judgement upon themselves, by kindling the Lord’s anger just by their incessant complaining.

http://www.bibleabookoftruth.com/whythelordledtheisraelitesthroughthewilderness.pdf


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> Why did Israel die in the wilderness rather than in the "PROMISED land"?



Besides their disobedience, they lacked faith in God.

Question: "Why was Israel cursed with forty years of wilderness wandering?"

Answer: “Wilderness wandering” refers to the plight of the Israelites due to their disobedience and unbelief. Nearly 3,500 years ago, the Lord delivered His people from Egyptian bondage as described in Exodus, chapters 1–12. They were to take possession of the land God had promised their forefathers, a land “flowing with milk and honey” (Exodus 3:8). Prior to entry, however, they became convinced they could not oust the current inhabitants of the land, even though God told them they could. Their lack of belief in God’s word and promises brought forth the wrath of God. He cursed them with forty years of wilderness wandering until the unbelieving generation died off, never stepping foot in the Promised Land.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/wilderness-wandering.html#ixzz2bsOa5y7v


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> By faith, they followed instruction.



Hold the phones!  Am I seriously hearing this right?  The implication being "if they didn't follow instruction, then they would have perished"... that they had to do SOMETHING in order to accept God's gift (physical freedom)?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Hebrews 3:14-18
14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end, 15while it is said, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME." 16For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?…17And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?


----------



## Artfuldodger

If we hold fast the same faith & assurance we received until the end. If we do not harden our hearts.

Not even trying to figure out who "we" are or who "they" were, actions of men were required. 
God was provoked and got angry. (how could that be possible?)


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> Hold the phones!  Am I seriously hearing this right?  The implication being "if they didn't follow instruction, then they would have perished"... that they had to do SOMETHING in order to accept God's gift (physical freedom)?


There is so much here, I don't know where to start. What is pictured here? The father of each household sprinkled the blood upon the door of his house. Does not our heavenly Father, by his Spirit, apply the blood of Christ to our hearts and at the appointed time? Does our heavenly Father not save his household? When God said "Behold, I will save my people", did he mean it? 

Yet you say, "they had to do SOMETHING in order to accept God's gift (physical freedom)". Is it a gift if you have to do something to get it?


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Why did Israel die in the wilderness rather than in the "PROMISED land"?


Do you not see the death of Moses(law) here and our Joshua(the LORD is salvation) lives?


----------



## Israel

gtparts said:


> 683 posts later and no one has really zoned in on the nature of God, as regards His covenants. Even when man falls short in upholding his end of the covenant, God never backs up, never crawfishes, never abandons or goes back on His word.
> If He did, it could only be concluded that God's word is not trustworthy. May it never be said that God doesn't keep His promises!
> 
> Everything about salvation is only provided by God. Regeneration is from God. Election (however one defines it) is from God. Conviction of sin is from God. The capacity to repent comes from God. The ability to submit comes from God. Salvation is from God.
> What God does is allow us to passively agree, where our nature is diametrically opposed to such agreement. To submit is to confirm our complete dependence on Him, to give Him the praise and glory He rightfully deserves, by virtue of who He is, the one true God.
> 
> Is there room or reason to believe that Scripture teaches anything else? Semantics aside, all the above thoughts and actions find their origin in God alone.
> 
> We've danced around OSAS, ISAS, election (what does that mean to you?), regeneration, falling away (again,what does that mean to you?), and the temporary/permanent qualities of salvation.
> 
> Well, I remain unmoved. The psalmist, David, pleaded for God to "restore unto me the joy of thy salvation." Thy salvation! The joy is ours to possess or, by our sinful thoughts and actions, to have withheld, but the salvation is His alone,... for Him to keep in our stead... for us... on our behalf. The salvation we receive is ours, but much like a bank, He holds the eternal reality in trust. Brother and sister, it is safe in His hands. While we can affect our joyous pleasure of that salvation in this temporal life, it is nothing to boast in, for we only participate in it because of the mercy and grace of God.
> 
> The choice is to each of us: toe-to-toe or hand-in-hand. Are we Christians? We will be known by our love (or lack thereof) for each other. Let us set aside our contentious words and our prideful hearts, lest we disgrace Him and ourselves.


I may hear your heart, it is a warm one.

How we contend!
Some see the abysmal pit into which one came to us...rescued us, and set our feet in a large place.
These, it seems are very jealous for the name of the one who they know...alone...saved them. They had neither a prayer nor hope...but this ONE came down to them, and in grace and mercy rescued them. It hurts them deeply to consider someone may be contending that it was only because they stretched out their hand...they were helped. But these know they were without strength. It rankles when they believe they hear anything that would "take credit" for such mercy.

I see others, perhaps no less aware of this great salvation, almost fearful that some might to whom they may preach could "feel" disqualified, and they fairly bristle that a wrong interpretation of this grace could cause one to lose hope they might ever be "chosen"... for this rescue. For they believe it cautions the "whosoever will"...but not unless you are of the elect.

All God...or part God...some our need and response?

God knows why his invitation seems accepted by some, disdained by others.
But, if I hear your heart, we may do well to look to our own souls in our struggles to understand...so that lest we find ourselves engaged in precisely what will show the world we are not his disciples...by lacking love for one another, and be manifest to our shame...and we discover the fault may never have been in those who seemed to disdain what we offered as an invitation...but that we ourselves...never rightly accepted it, at all. And all we, at best offered, was another invitation to join something that is passing away.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> Why did Israel die in the wilderness rather than in the "PROMISED land"?



They were no longer under the care of their Husband, He had divorced them.

Jer 3:8 "And I saw that for all the adulteries of faithless Israel, I had sent her away and given her a writ of divorce, yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear; but she went and was a harlot also.

Isa 54:5 "For your husband is your Maker, Whose name is the LORD of hosts; And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel, Who is called the God of all the earth.
Isa 54:6 "For the LORD has called you, Like a wife forsaken and grieved in spirit, Even like a wife of one's youth when she is rejected," Says your God.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> Do you not see the death of Moses(law) here and our Joshua(the LORD is salvation) lives?



I'm sorry but I don't.
.


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> There is so much here, I don't know where to start. What is pictured here? The father of each household sprinkled the blood upon the door of his house. Does not our heavenly Father, by his Spirit, apply the blood of Christ to our hearts and at the appointed time? Does our heavenly Father not save his household? When God said "Behold, I will save my people", did he mean it?
> 
> Yet you say, "they had to do SOMETHING in order to accept God's gift (physical freedom)". Is it a gift if you have to do something to get it?



But you do agree the folks had to do SOMETHING?  As far as the gift comment goes, if you receive a Christmas gift (for free), do you have to do anything to receive it (maybe unwrap it?)  The idea something is a "free gift" doesn't automatically mean there's nothing that has to be done to receive it.  Even in life we see this demonstrated.

If a relative bought us a washer/dryer set free of charge and required us to pick it up for the store, we'd tell folks it was a "free gift".  Never would we claim we "earned it" or "worked for it."


----------



## Israel

Even the desire to be a "good" servant of God must die.
Allow Jesus...yes, "allow" Jesus to run a stake through the heart of that little idol, that thing that deep inside of it from which will come oozing out, as he does so, all of the gooey crap that was its lifeblood... "I did this for you, therefore you must do this for me..." and with it all of the "but you can never live without me...you can never live without me..." garbage...yes, watch a friend do for you what you now KNOW you could never do for yourself...be free of having to think of yourself as good..."for" anything..."at" anything...watch your own conceptions of what it meant to you to be a "good" disciple, a good son, a good friend...come oozing out and stain the ground...where it belongs.
We can stop pretending, and begin to love...even if we see it dimly.
We can live without our own righteousness...we can, by grace(magnificent grace) disdain the vanity, come to LIVE in a place where we may understand why even a man might say...completely without shame or embarrassment when asked..."why do you love your wife?"
Not..."because she's such a good person"
Not..."because she is/was smart and pretty"
Not..."because she serves me so well"

BUT...
"Because...really... she's the only one who would have me"


Could it be Jesus set his sights so "low"...(high)...that he really is with us...he is glad to say the same?

But Lord...look at all your POWER!...
"yeah" he answers..."so what?"


SO WHAT!


----------



## hummerpoo

Israel said:


> Even the desire to be a "good" servant of God must die.
> Allow Jesus...yes, "allow" Jesus to run a stake through the heart of that little idol, that thing that deep inside of it from which will come oozing out, as he does so, all of the gooey crap that was its lifeblood... "I did this for you, therefore you must do this for me..." and with it all of the "but you can never live without me...you can never live without me..." garbage...yes, watch a friend do for you what you now KNOW you could never do for yourself...be free of having to think of yourself as good..."for" anything..."at" anything...watch your own conceptions of what it meant to you to be a "good" disciple, a good son, a good friend...come oozing out and stain the ground...where it belongs.
> We can stop pretending, and begin to love...even if we see it dimly.
> We can live without our own righteousness...we can, by grace(magnificent grace) disdain the vanity, come to LIVE in a place where we may understand why even a man might say...completely without shame or embarrassment when asked..."why do you love your wife?"
> Not..."because she's such a good person"
> Not..."because she is/was smart and pretty"
> Not..."because she serves me so well"
> 
> BUT...
> "Because...really... she's the only one who would have me"
> 
> 
> Could it be Jesus set his sights so "low"...(high)...that he really is with us...he is glad to say the same?
> 
> But Lord...look at all your POWER!...
> "yeah" he answers..."so what?"
> 
> 
> SO WHAT!



Right On Brother.
I don't need to check the context to add an amen to this one.


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> But you do agree the folks had to do SOMETHING?  As far as the gift comment goes, if you receive a Christmas gift (for free), do you have to do anything to receive it (maybe unwrap it?)  The idea something is a "free gift" doesn't automatically mean there's nothing that has to be done to receive it.  Even in life we see this demonstrated.
> 
> If a relative bought us a washer/dryer set free of charge and required us to pick it up for the store, we'd tell folks it was a "free gift".  Never would we claim we "earned it" or "worked for it."


We can discuss multiple examples but how dead are we? Are we a corpse as the apostle Paul claims? "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins"


----------



## M80

gemcgrew said:


> We can discuss multiple examples but how dead are we? Are we a corpse as the apostle Paul claims? "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins"



Amen brother, we can't die once we've been born again


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> Amen brother, we can't die once we've been born again



Book, chapter, and verse???  In life, people like Lazarus were raised back to life and died again.  Gem... same goes on your question.  Just because a person was dead in sin and made alive doesn't mean he can't die.  Both of you are making assumptions that you can't find stated in the book.


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> Book, chapter, and verse???  In life, people like Lazarus were raised back to life and died again.  Gem... same goes on your question.  Just because a person was dead in sin and made alive doesn't mean he can't die.  Both of you are making assumptions that you can't find stated in the book.


I agree with you in the physical application but the physical does not interest me much. So, lets go with John 3:36 "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."


----------



## Israel

Could it be that the "if you continue in my word"...can be both cautionary...and encouraging at the precise same moment?
something great is to be seen, and apprehended...but this word of mine will test whether you believe me when I tell you...it is worth all the trials.
How mad I was at Jesus when I discovered he didn't come to make me a better person.
And there was not one atom of his creation with which I did not find fault.
How glad I am to discover, I am wrong.

For if in seeking to be justified by Christ I find myself a sinner...is Christ a minister of sin? Woo boy...who knows except God how close I came in all my actions and thinking to believing that...O, my words always sounded "pious"...at least to me and whoever I could convince...

BUT....


SOMEONE kept me.


----------



## BT Charlie

Yes, with apologies to Israel (our bro, not the nation) and CS Lewis: we do not approach Him as bad people trying to be good people; we come as rebels to lay down our arms.  100 percent of our debt paid 100 percent by our Lord and Savior.  (Amen).  This posture of repentance: (always?) encouragement and proof of our heart belief in His finished work; and (always?) cautionary, like a compass point, to which we need to return and continue in His Word. Thanks God.


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> I agree with you in the physical application but the physical does not interest me much. So, lets go with John 3:36 "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."



Awesome passage Gem... let's break this verse down.  The Greek verbs rendered "believeth", "hath", "believeth not", and "abideth" is in the present active tense.  The "active" part of the tense means the subject mentioned is the one responsible for the action - it's not being done to him.  The "present tense" means someone is continually doing something - similar to the meaning of the term "lifestyle".

Thus, the passage is literally rendered "He who believes and continues to believe on the Son has and continues to have everlasting life and he that doesn't believe and continues to disbelieve the Son shall not see life (future), but the wrath of God abides and continues to abide on him."

Your passage teaches exactly what I'm claiming... if one who has "been believing" stops believing, he no longer has everlasting life!  Thanks!


----------



## Artfuldodger

John 3:36 "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

A few things that verse tells me. One is I must believeth on the Son. While I do agree God must call and his Spirit gives me a measure of faith to believe, it is still a requirement from "ME." It is "something" I must do. I don't even care what you want to call it or who helps me achieve it, it is still something "I" must do. I must believeth.
The second part of the verse let's me know that if I believeth not the Son, I can expect the wrath of God.(if I didn't have any part in believing, why would I have to suffer the wrath of God?)This verse doesn't let me know whether I can or can't stop believing the Son.
The verse does let me know that part of believing the Son is believing his teachings on the Kingdom of God. If you "believe the Son," you'd better believe his teachings on who will inherit the Kingdom of God.


----------



## Ronnie T

Heb 5:7 In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, 10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> Heb 5:7 In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, 10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek



Besides your point of pointing out the Son's requirement of our obedience to him is this verse's point of pointing out the Son's obedience to his Father. He prayed to his Father.


----------



## M80

Bama4me said:


> Awesome passage Gem... let's break this verse down.  The Greek verbs rendered "believeth", "hath", "believeth not", and "abideth" is in the present active tense.  The "active" part of the tense means the subject mentioned is the one responsible for the action - it's not being done to him.  The "present tense" means someone is continually doing something - similar to the meaning of the term "lifestyle".
> 
> Thus, the passage is literally rendered "He who believes and continues to believe on the Son has and continues to have everlasting life and he that doesn't believe and continues to disbelieve the Son shall not see life (future), but the wrath of God abides and continues to abide on him."
> 
> Your passage teaches exactly what I'm claiming... if one who has "been believing" stops believing, he no longer has everlasting life!  Thanks!



Glad to see how much of mans knowledged you have put in there. Me, I read it how the bible says it


----------



## M80

Ronnie T said:


> Heb 5:7 In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, 10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek



I'm glad I obeyed him when he called me to him and got eternally saved according to that verse


----------



## BT Charlie

John 3:36 -- two postures before the Lord, one or the other... Belief in the Lord, or unbelief in the Lord.  More literal, those who believe, vs. those who do not obey, who will not have eternal life.  I am a poster boy of the latter, though I strive (filthy rags) and periodically think I am among the former (missing the mark of where righteousness derives, without personal merit).

My rebellious retrieval of arms once laid at the cross; my filthy rags of perceived self righteousness; that which I hate in myself which I so easily see in others -- hypocritically -- all of it sin, which continues to roil among my flesh.  Deal with it, in belief, by submission to His Lordship, from repentant posture. Belief begats obedience. Imperfect, but still... Blessed assurance in His completed work, yet "dam..ble doubt." So continually needy upon Him, lest we credit ourselves and 
boast... Pretty awesome.


----------



## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> Heb 5:7 In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, 10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek





mwilliams80 said:


> I'm glad I obeyed him when he called me to him and got eternally saved according to that verse



At least you admitted that you had to do something.

- made perfect-completed, brought to His goal of learning and suffering through death (Heb 2:10) [Alford], namely, at His glorious resurrection and ascension.

author-Greek, "cause."

eternal salvation-obtained for us in the short "days of Jesus' flesh" (Heb 5:7; compare Heb 5:6, "for ever," Isa 45:17).

unto all . that obey him-As Christ obeyed the Father, so must we obey Him by faith.


----------



## BT Charlie

Ronnie, I understand that in Hebrew there is no noun for the word we know as faith; the Hebrew terms for this concept are all active verbs or akin to such. If that is true, it seems beautifully aligned with the active works spontaneously induced by faith in Jesus Christ.  MWilliams80...you have a great heart and your posts are very encouraging.  I pray differences in human understanding of the Word never discourage you in faith....


----------



## Israel

BT Charlie said:


> Yes, with apologies to Israel (our bro, not the nation) and CS Lewis: we do not approach Him as bad people trying to be good people; we come as rebels to lay down our arms.  100 percent of our debt paid 100 percent by our Lord and Savior.  (Amen).  This posture of repentance: (always?) encouragement and proof of our heart belief in His finished work; and (always?) cautionary, like a compass point, to which we need to return and continue in His Word. Thanks God.


Amen.
Yes, I thought I knew.
And the more I thought (and think) I know, the more "necessary" I make myself...for the "work", to others (those poor poor blind misunderstanding people) that must really really need my help, little did I see or know the mainspring from which this came. I mean...wasn't this what it means to be "like Jesus" to have so much to give because you are so full of all the good stuff?
(You can continue reading when you stop laughing)

Brick walls. Solid, hard, impenetrable walls. Dug deep I couldn't get under, so high I couldn't get over. And closing in! I got stuck...by myself. Even the bed, a place of refuge...grew hard and uncomfortable.

OKAY! YOU WIN! GET ME OUT!

Ha! 


I said GET ME OUT!

OKAY, IS this how you want this to go? I am not getting up, out, doing anything...unless it's you and your power...otherwise, I just lay here to die. I'm done...I mean it now...I AM DONE!

I said "do you hear me? DO YOU HEAR ME?


Oh, you think this is funny Lord? Really? Stop. Stop laughing.

C'mon...I said stop. Please.

Oh...OK...yeah , Lord, I guess when you look at it that way...it is kinda funny.
Ok, it's not kinda funny...I really is funny.
Oh, Lord OK...you're right, it's HILARIOUS!

Ha! Ha ha ha...











llelujah!


----------



## Artfuldodger

John 3:36 "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

It seems like we don't mention Satan and his evil ways to lead us away from "believing the son." He likes to use our friends, family members, and even our Church members to lead us ashtray.  He will do everything in his power to cause us to sin and will cause us to be separated from God by the same sins. He can't force us to sin but can only put the thought, concept, or temptation before us. True he can't make us do anything wrong but he can influence us if we have free will.  If we don't have free will then remove all of the verses pertaining to Satan.


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> I'm glad I obeyed him when he called me to him and got eternally saved according to that verse



Is that really all that you get out of that verse? Obedience to Jesus is a one time event?

Jesus honors the authority of His Father through complete obedience. Was this just a one time event for Jesus to obey his Father?


----------



## M80

BT Charlie said:


> Ronnie, I understand that in Hebrew there is no noun for the word we know as faith; the Hebrew terms for this concept are all active verbs or akin to such. If that is true, it seems beautifully aligned with the active works spontaneously induced by faith in Jesus Christ.  MWilliams80...you have a great heart and your posts are very encouraging.  I pray differences in human understanding of the Word never discourage you in faith....



Bless your heart brother. I'm reminded of "I know whom I have believed in, and am persuaded,,,"
I like that old song "I'd rather be an old time Christian than anything I know"


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> Is that really all that you get out of that verse? Obedience to Jesus is a one time event?
> 
> Jesus honors the authority of His Father through complete obedience. Was this just a one time event for Jesus to obey his Father?



Do you really believe that us that believe in OSAS believe once and then we say well that's over and done with, lets go do whatever we want to do. I always preach draw nigh unto god and he will draw nigh unto you. We can have as close as a relationship with The Lord as we want. It is whoever we feed the most. We are living in a world like the book Judges where "men done what was right in their own eyes". We need to take heed to the word of The Lord through the Holy Spirit and allow him to guide us according to John 16


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> If we don't have free will then remove all of the verses pertaining to Satan.


But then we would not know the result of free will religion.
Isaiah 14:12-15


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> Glad to see how much of mans knowledged you have put in there. Me, I read it how the bible says it



You do realize that IS how the bible says it don't you?  I'm not inserting "man's knowledge in there"... that's the way the passage is rendered if you want a word-for-word meaning of the passage.

Brings up a point that you've reference before here... you are aware that all translations (including the KJV) contain errors don't you?  Saying "I read it how the bible says" indicates that you don't care what the Greek manuscripts (or Hebrew/Aramaic) say.  If you doubt what I'm saying, go ask someone who's able to read Greek what John 3:36 literally says.


----------



## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> Is that really all that you get out of that verse? Obedience to Jesus is a one time event?



That's just it... the Greek word rendered "believeth" in the passage doesn't refer to a "one time action".  Rather, the term refers to something which takes place "continuously".  Generally speaking, any time you see in the KJV a verb ending with "th", it was written in this tense (present active).  In the English language, we don't have an equivalent translation in one word.  Thus, there's often a difference between the KJV rendering (ending in "th) and what a modern version will render that same verb.


----------



## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> Do you really believe that us that believe in OSAS believe once and then we say well that's over and done with, lets go do whatever we want to do.



No, I don't.  However, I do think many people end up in the "do whatever we want to do" camp, secure in the fact that there was a point in their life when they prayed a prayer, walked an aisle, raised their hand or something similar.

I base that opinion on watching people do exactly that for about forty years.




mwilliams80 said:


> We can have as close as a relationship with The Lord as we want.



Apparently, you can have as distant a relationship as you want, too.


----------



## centerpin fan

Bama4me said:


> Saying "I read it how the bible says" indicates that you don't care what the Greek manuscripts (or Hebrew/Aramaic) say.



Without getting into the Bible version issue, I don't think they do care.


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> Do you really believe that us that believe in OSAS believe once and then we say well that's over and done with, lets go do whatever we want to do. I always preach draw nigh unto god and he will draw nigh unto you. We can have as close as a relationship with The Lord as we want. It is whoever we feed the most. We are living in a world like the book Judges where "men done what was right in their own eyes". We need to take heed to the word of The Lord through the Holy Spirit and allow him to guide us according to John 16



No I don't personally believe you, mwillaims,  quit obeying God after you were reborn. But you did use Hebrews 5:9 to say that. 
I have since realized you didn't mean it that way.
But some people do use OSAS to not have to obey God.


----------



## Ronnie T

BT Charlie said:


> Ronnie, I understand that in Hebrew there is no noun for the word we know as faith; the Hebrew terms for this concept are all active verbs or akin to such. If that is true, it seems beautifully aligned with the active works spontaneously induced by faith in Jesus Christ.  MWilliams80...you have a great heart and your posts are very encouraging.  I pray differences in human understanding of the Word never discourage you in faith....



But, it isn't the word "faith" that this scripture deals with specifically.  It's the word "obedience" and "Obey".  
The Son obeyed the Father, the children obey the Father.

Jesus' teachings never insinuated that His obedience would lessen the expectation that those who accepted Him as their Lord would not treat Him as their Lord.
Over and over He taught it.  Over and over His apostles taught it.

Now, Jesus was perfectly obedient.
We will not be perfect in our obedient.  But through our "desire" for obedience, we'll have mercy through our Lord and Savior.


----------



## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> Bless your heart brother. I'm reminded of "I know whom I have believed in, and am persuaded,,,"
> I like that old song "I'd rather be an old time Christian than anything I know"



But the proclamation "Once saved always saved" is not an 'old time' Christian belief or doctrine.  In the grand scale, it's relatively new.

Do a google search of:  "Origin of OSAS"

http://fwponline.cc/v21n1/v21n1witzki.html


----------



## Bama4me

centerpin fan said:


> Without getting into the Bible version issue, I don't think they do care.



Just for the record, I'm not trying to divert the discussion to bible versions, but rather trying to point out that the manuscripts are more reliable than any version... and any deep discussion of a text shouldn't focus solely on what a version says, but what the original Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic actually said as well.


----------



## centerpin fan

Bama4me said:


> Just for the record, I'm not trying to divert the discussion to bible versions, but rather trying to point out that the manuscripts are more reliable than any version... and any deep discussion of a text shouldn't focus solely on what a version says, but what the original Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic actually said as well.



Understood.


----------



## gemcgrew

So, we are to trust in our obedience? Our hope is in our obedience? Our desire to be obedient?

Seriously?


----------



## centerpin fan

Ronnie T said:


> But the proclamation "Once saved always saved" is not an 'old time' Christian belief or doctrine.  In the grand scale, it's relatively new.



At some point in this discussion (and I'm unwilling to wade back through 700+ posts to see exactly when), I listed some comments from some really "old time" Christians on this subject.  They were not in agreement with mwilliams80 or barryl.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> So, we are to trust in our obedience? Our hope is in our obedience? Our desire to be obedient?
> 
> Seriously?



Absolutely not.
But a life dedicated to Christ.
A life filled with the Holy Spirit.
The life of a "Disciple".
That's all.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Absolutely not.
> But a life dedicated to Christ.
> A life filled with the Holy Spirit.
> The life of a "Disciple".
> That's all.





Ronnie T said:


> But through our "desire" for obedience, we'll have mercy through our Lord and Savior.


Who are you attributing this "desire" to?


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> At some point in this discussion (and I'm unwilling to wade back through 700+ posts to see exactly when), I listed some comments from some really "old time" Christians on this subject.  They were not in agreement with mwilliams80 or barryl.



Shall we list the "old time" Christian comments on universalism? Do we embrace it? Do you?


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> Shall we list the "old time" Christian comments on universalism?



List away!


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> But then we would not know the result of free will religion.
> Isaiah 14:12-15



Isaiah 14:12 How are you fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how are you cut down to the ground, who did weaken the nations!



Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

How art thou fallen from heaven,.... This is not to be understood of the fall of Satan, and the apostate angels, from their first estate, when they were cast down from heaven to - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -, though there may be an allusion to it; see Luke 10:18 but the words are a continuation of the speech of the dead to the king of Babylon, wondering at it, as a thing almost incredible, that he who seemed to be so established on the throne of his kingdom, which was his heaven, that he should be deposed or fall from it. So the destruction of the Roman Pagan emperors is signified by the casting out of the dragon and his angels from heaven, Revelation 12:7 and in like manner Rome Papal, or the Romish antichrist, will fall from his heaven of outward splendour and happiness, of honour and authority, now, possessed by him: 

O Lucifer, son of the morning! alluding to the star Venus, which is the phosphorus or morning star, which ushers in the light of the morning, and shows that day is at hand; by which is meant, not Satan, who is never in Scripture called Lucifer,


----------



## Artfuldodger

Why don't we each make two Bibles, one with the "predestination/OSAS" stuff highlighted and one with the "free will" stuff highlighted.
Then use the one that is opposite of what you believe. We are all quick to find verses to support our beliefs but not verses to go against our beliefs. Using each other's highlighted Bibles will help us understand.


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> List away!


How many would you prefer? I will start digging. Again, do you embrace universalism as truth?


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> Again, do you embrace universalism as truth?



Nope.


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> So, we are to trust in our obedience? Our hope is in our obedience? Our desire to be obedient?
> 
> Seriously?



You've mentioned this concept several times during this discussion... so it seems there's a disconnect that comes from the idea of "trusting in one's self."  Maybe I'm not getting what you're saying?  

If God's word says, "In order to be saved, a person must give away all his possessions," I'm not "trusting in myself" when I do that.  Rather, I'm "trusting in HIM" because I'm doing what HE said - I'm submitting to HIM.

"Trusting in one's self" means that you that are following your own path in life... not God's.  Salvation with God has always been conditional on man's willingness to submit to His will... it was true in the Old Testament and it's true in the New Testament (as mentioned in John 3:36).

Somehow or another, you're equating "submitting to God and doing what He asks" as "trusting in yourself."  That's not accurate - the whole life of a Christian must be based on "trusting in God".


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> You've mentioned this concept several times during this discussion... so it seems there's a disconnect that comes from the idea of "trusting in one's self."  Maybe I'm not getting what you're saying?
> 
> If God's word says, "In order to be saved, a person must give away all his possessions," I'm not "trusting in myself" when I do that.  Rather, I'm "trusting in HIM" because I'm doing what HE said - I'm submitting to HIM.
> 
> "Trusting in one's self" means that you that are following your own path in life... not God's.  Salvation with God has always been conditional on man's willingness to submit to His will... it was true in the Old Testament and it's true in the New Testament (as mentioned in John 3:36).
> 
> Somehow or another, you're equating "submitting to God and doing what He asks" as "trusting in yourself."  That's not accurate - the whole life of a Christian must be based on "trusting in God".


I understand your position. I see salvation from God through Christ alone. There is nothing I can produce in and of myself that is acceptable to God. Only God is good and all of salvation is a gift of God.


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> There is nothing I can produce in and of myself that is acceptable to God.



You and I both agree that it's God who gives us abilities to people to do things... Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:10 that he "was what he was" because of God's grace.  In that sense, you are right regarding this quote - because God has created us as a human beings and ultimately designs us in a unique way and allows us to "live". 

However, you and I will disagree when if say "there's nothing a human being can produce that's acceptable to God."  That comment sounds very similar to what is called "depravity" by the religious world.

According to "depravity," there's NOTHING a person can do that is "right" (acceptable to God) - he/she is incapable of doing good until the Holy Spirit "illuminates" the heart and "unlocks" his/her capacity to do good.

"Depravity" says we were born sinners... that there's NOTHING people can do that's acceptable to God until their conversion.  Is this what you're referring to... or am I reading your statement wrong?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Even if a person is totally depraved before conversion, he shouldn't be after conversion. Under this concept one's free will would start at conversion. After conversion and the Holy spirit unlocks your heart, you can start doing things using your own capacity.

Under OSAS one's free will ends at conversion. One isn't totally depraved before conversion but lose their "own capacity" after conversion.


----------



## barryl

Take a minute or two and look up Romans 3:25 or Ch.2 1 John. The Doctrines of "Propitiation" and "Adoption"- Romans 8:15,23, 9:4 also Gal. 4:5, Eph. 1:5 KJV AV I seen somewhere the other day someone saying "Context is King,?"


----------



## M80

Didn't Paul say its not I but Christ that liveth in me

Again do y'all believe it is our flesh that is saved


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Take a minute or two and look up Romans 3:25 or Ch.2 1 John. The Doctrines of "Propitiation" and "Adoption"- Romans 8:15,23, 9:4 also Gal. 4:5, Eph. 1:5 KJV AV I seen somewhere the other day someone saying "Context is King,?"



I see a common theme here.  (All passages taken from NIV UV.)


God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 

The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.  And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 

Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 

to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship.

 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.


----------



## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> Didn't Paul say its not I but Christ that liveth in me


Now you've done it. You've exposed man's exalted view of himself.


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> No, I don't.  However, I do think many people end up in the "do whatever we want to do" camp, secure in the fact that there was a point in their life when they prayed a prayer, walked an aisle, raised their hand or something similar.
> 
> I base that opinion on watching people do exactly that for about forty years.


A couple days ago, in my backyard, I had 2 professing Christians cussing each other at the top of their lungs. I've known them both for over 30 years. Neither of them know God from an acorn. They are so fully deceived because they did something in their youth and someone told them that they were saved. They don't even want to discuss spiritual things and why would they.


----------



## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> We will not be perfect in our obedient.  But through our "desire" for obedience, we'll have mercy through our Lord and Savior.





gemcgrew said:


> Who are you attributing this "desire" to?



I attribute it in the same spirit as Peter did when Jesus forgave him of Peter's denying Him 3 times.
Peter do you love me?  "Yes Lord I love you".
Then feed my sheep.
But do you really love me?


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> Didn't Paul say its not I but Christ that liveth in me?



So that obviously means he had no control over any of his actions then?


----------



## hobbs27

Think of it what you may, but I like this!

But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Makes one wonder what is so everlasting about a salvation that comes and goes.


----------



## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> Think of it what you may, but I like this!
> 
> But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
> 
> Makes one wonder what is so everlasting about a salvation that comes and goes.



Then God won't allow a person to exercise free will?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Think of it what you may, but I like this!
> 
> But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
> 
> Makes one wonder what is so everlasting about a salvation that comes and goes.



But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

Now you have been freed from sin and have become God's slaves. This results in a holy life and, finally, in everlasting life.

(and finally, in the end, or resulting in eternal life because the benefit you reap leads to holiness. None of that makes it sound like it happens "in a moment) my words


----------



## Artfuldodger

Romans 6:19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness.

Why is Paul telling them to "offer" themselves verses earlier?
Pulpit commentary:
St. Paul may mean, "In saying you were made slaves to righteousness, I am using human language not properly applicable to your spiritual relations. For you are not really in bondage now; you have been emancipated from your former bondage to sin, and are now called upon to render a free willing allowance to righteousness; being, in fact, sons, not slaves." This view of the true position of the Christian being one of freedom recurs so often and so forcibly with St. Paul that it is peculiarly likely to be the thought before him here; the very word ἐδουλώθητε would be likely to suggest it


----------



## gemcgrew

"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

He predestined, He called, He justified, He glorified.

"Salvation is of the Lord" entirely.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Romans 6:22 commentaries:
Matthew Henry
From this condemnation the believer is set at liberty, when made free from sin. If the fruit is unto holiness, if there is an active principle of true and growing grace, the end will be everlasting life; a very happy end! Though the way is up-hill, though it is narrow, thorny, and beset, yet everlasting life at the end of it is sure. 

Barnes commentary
Ye have your fruit unto holiness - The fruit or result is holiness. This service produces holiness, as the other did sin. It is implied here, though not expressly affirmed, that in this service which leads to holiness, they received important benefits, as in the service of sin they had experienced many evils.

And the end - The final result - the ultimate consequence will be. At present this service produces holiness; hereafter it will terminate in everlasting life. By this consideration the apostle states the tendency of the plan of justification, and urges on them the duty of striving after holiness.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
> 
> He predestined, He called, He justified, He glorified.
> 
> "Salvation is of the Lord" entirely.



Why does God make us go through the motions of believing, obeying, forgiving, loving, and helping. 
Again, why do we have New Covenant commandments.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> A couple days ago, in my backyard, I had 2 professing Christians cussing each other at the top of their lungs. I've known them both for over 30 years. Neither of them know God from an acorn. They are so fully deceived because they did something in their youth and someone told them that they were saved. They don't even want to discuss spiritual things and why would they.



I understand from you belief, they were never saved because they weren't of the "elect."
What do you other "free will" believers of OSAS believe about these 2 professing Christians? The ones who don't believe in "election." Perhaps they said the "sinners prayer" and truly believed they were saved. Maybe they were saved in a Church. Maybe their Eternal Salvation happened in a car going down the highway. Maybe their salvation vanished in an equally small moment when they quit living a righteous life.


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> Didn't Paul say its not I but Christ that liveth in me
> 
> Again do y'all believe it is our flesh that is saved



If you help bring someone to Christ and ten years later you find out they haven't been living a Christian life but the first three years, what would you say happened? 
It's just their flesh that is unrighteous? Is their inner man saved no matter what their flesh does? Is the inner man not responsible for his flesh? How do we see the Christian's fruit manifest itself if not his soul making his flesh/mind do things like loving and helping others?

My inner man still resides in my flesh.


----------



## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> Think of it what you may, but I like this!
> 
> But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
> 
> Makes one wonder what is so everlasting about a salvation that comes and goes.



But now being made free from sin, ....Christ's death freed us from a bondage to Sin.  Christ's death wasn't a licenses for us to sin, but an empowerment to be fruitful rather than worldly.

and 

become servants to God,  ....Freed from that bondage, we are able to be servants to our Father.
ye have your fruit unto holiness,.. we become fruitful to God.

and the end 
..........everlasting life


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> If you help bring someone to Christ and ten years later you find out they haven't been living a Christian life but the first three years, what would you say happened?
> It's just their flesh that is unrighteous? Is their inner man saved no matter what their flesh does? Is the inner man not responsible for his flesh? How do we see the Christian's fruit manifest itself if not his soul making his flesh/mind do things like loving and helping others?
> 
> My inner man still resides in my flesh.



Yea they would still be saved cause its not the flesh that is saved.  Bible says flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of god in Corinthians. It's not this robe of flesh that is saved. The bible says we must beat up this flesh so our inner man may shine out. There is nothing righteous about this flesh but filthy rags. Our flesh is not saved, bottom line. It is our enemy everyday. 

According to your question, someone like that probably wasn't discipled and fellow brothers and sisters in Christ wasn't there for them. What if as babes in Christ they got hurt and got out of the will of god. 

It is not up to us to keep our salvation, if it was Ephesians wouldn't say "not of works, lest any should boast"

Doesn't the bible say Christ, the author and finisher of our faith


----------



## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> Yea they would still be saved cause its not the flesh that is saved.  Bible says flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of god in Corinthians. It's not this robe of flesh that is saved. The bible says we must beat up this flesh so our inner man may shine out. There is nothing righteous about this flesh but filthy rags. Our flesh is not saved, bottom line. It is our enemy everyday.
> 
> According to your question, someone like that probably wasn't discipled and fellow brothers and sisters in Christ wasn't there for them. What if as babes in Christ they got hurt and got out of the will of god.
> 
> It is not up to us to keep our salvation, if it was Ephesians wouldn't say "not of works, lest any should boast"
> 
> Doesn't the bible say Christ, the author and finisher of our faith



Things are not always as they appear.



1Cor 6:16 Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, “The two shall become one flesh.” 17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18 Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? 20 For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> Why does God make us go through the motions of believing, obeying, forgiving, loving, and helping.


Ephesians 1 comes to mind.


----------



## BT Charlie

Hey Ronnie....re: post 728:  I am with you on the passage and obedience.  I apologize for implying otherwise.  

My post was intended as simple encouragement unconnected to the discussion.  I just thought it was cool if it is true that in Hebrew the term for faith is not a passive noun but active verb. That kind of models the active faith/works and fruit that scripture says is proof of Christ in us/salvation.  Absence of active faith/works is a cry for concern, at least when I go cold...  Peace!


----------



## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> If you help bring someone to Christ and ten years later you find out they haven't been living a Christian life but the first three years, what would you say happened?
> It's just their flesh that is unrighteous? Is their inner man saved no matter what their flesh does? Is the inner man not responsible for his flesh? How do we see the Christian's fruit manifest itself if not his soul making his flesh/mind do things like loving and helping others?
> 
> My inner man still resides in my flesh.



Art... I think we're spinning wheels here. The theology of OSAS makes God responsible for everything and leaves man no responsibility whatsoever.  Once a person makes the decision to follow Christ, he/she is forced to follow that course - he/she cannot forfeit that salvation even if that's their preference.  And IF a believer somehow turns back, they're told they were never believers... and they never can return to God again.

In this thread, there are tens of passages you and others have cited to support free will being involved with loss of salvation... passages that most often are responded with "what about passage x and passage y"?  These passages have not been explained... and I think anyone following this thread can observe this fact.


----------



## M80

Bama4me said:


> Art... I think we're spinning wheels here. The theology of OSAS makes God responsible for everything and leaves man no responsibility whatsoever.  Once a person makes the decision to follow Christ, he/she is forced to follow that course - he/she cannot forfeit that salvation even if that's their preference.  And IF a believer somehow turns back, they're told they were never believers... and they never can return to God again.
> 
> In this thread, there are tens of passages you and others have cited to support free will being involved with loss of salvation... passages that most often are responded with "what about passage x and passage y"?  These passages have not been explained... and I think anyone following this thread can observe this fact.



Right back at you brother on the scripture thing, I  guess I'll just haft to stand on not of works lest any should boast. I guess y'all will boast one day before The Lord and say I'm glad I keep what you gave me. I'll say thank you for holding me in your hand


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Ephesians 1 comes to mind.



According as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

I agree he chose us to be a child of God. We should be holy but we aren't holy because something happened between the foundation of the world and now. This something made us, how would you put it, totally depraved.

Here is what I don't understand. I'll start from my beginning. I'm so totally depraved that I can no way even attempt to find Jesus. Suddenly, with nothing I'm searching for, the Holy Spirit enters my body and gives me the ability to believe Jesus died for my sins. Nothing I did. No Great commission needed, no spreading the Word needed, no accepting need, nothing. People on islands who've never heard the Word of God will receive this great gift of election bestowed on them. 
Next after the Holy Spirit grants me the ability to believe, he grants me the total gift of faith, not just a measure. 
Even if I did believe all that happened such as: believing is a gift, grace is a gift, a measure of faith is a gift, & holiness is a gift. What about obedience and faith? Why does Jesus continue over and over to tell us we must have faith and obey God if there  is absolutely nothing I can do about it?

What must I do to be saved? Nothing
What must I do to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
(which one is it?)


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> The theology of OSAS makes God responsible for everything and leaves man no responsibility whatsoever.


Well, we can't have that now can we. But hey, if you want to be responsible for your salvation, have at it. God requires perfection, how much responsibility can you handle?


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> What must I do to be saved? Nothing
> What must I do to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
> (which one is it?)


Ye must be born again.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ephesians 2:8
God saved you by his grace WHEN YOU BELIEVED And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God.

For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

What is the free gift? Grace. Somehow the faith got added as the free gift.

Pulpit commentary:
Verse 8. - For by grace have ye been saved, through faith. He repeats what he had said parenthetically (ver. 5), in order to open the subject up more fully. On the part of God, salvation is by grace; on the part of man, it is through faith. It does not come to us by an involuntary act, as light falls on our eyes, sounds on our ears, or air enters our lungs. When we are so far enlightened as to understand about it, there must be a personal reception of salvation by us, and that is by faith. Faith at once believes the good news of a free salvation through Christ, and accepts Christ as the Savior


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ephesians 2:5
made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

God does the saving, man does the believing. Salvation if of God, faith is of man.
Obedience is of man.


----------



## Artfuldodger

James 4:5 Or do you think Scripture says without reason that he jealously longs for the spirit he has caused to dwell in us? 6 But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: "God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble." 7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

Submit to God and come near to God. What will happen? The devil will flee and God will come closer. Does this not sound like something a human being must do?


----------



## Ronnie T

BT Charlie said:


> Hey Ronnie....re: post 728:  I am with you on the passage and obedience.  I apologize for implying otherwise.
> 
> My post was intended as simple encouragement unconnected to the discussion.  I just thought it was cool if it is true that in Hebrew the term for faith is not a passive noun but active verb. That kind of models the active faith/works and fruit that scripture says is proof of Christ in us/salvation.  Absence of active faith/works is a cry for concern, at least when I go cold...  Peace!



  I just misunderstood.  And I agree with you.  I pray someone will come to my aid when they see me getting dumb and unaffected.  
.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> Ephesians 2:8
> God saved you by his grace WHEN YOU BELIEVED And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God.
> 
> For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.
> 
> What is the free gift? Grace. Somehow the faith got added as the free gift.


Both are gifts. Where else can faith come from? Us? "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."


----------



## BT Charlie

Heb 6:4-6 is on my short list of tough verses.  Plucked out eyes, chopped off hands ... and locked outside the gates of Heaven?

A saving faith in Christ's completed work endures to the end.  As Ronnie and others have patiently said (again and again) failure to abide in Christ is basically a soul emergency.  

Once one has accepted Christ, one can fall away through one's own doing.  

Whether you conceive falling away from the Word as evidence of salvation once gained and now lost, or as evidence that a saving faith in Christ was never obtained ... it likely won't end well, right?  

Unless we repent and return to the foot of the cross.

Enter this passage.  Some suggest that the plain language of this text means that once one falls away, he can never be restored.  Debarred from heaven. 86'd for backsliding?

In love, I suggest that such is (thankfully) out of focus. (Forgive my opinion). 
Proverbs says a righteous man may fall seven times, and rise again. 24:16. It's not so much about falling, to me -- how utterly human.  Rather, the mystery and difficulty lies in the struggle of repentance and getting back up... Here is where eternity perhaps once "assured" now hangs in the balance, as a result of our heart response. (fearfully frightening stuff)  Here as everwhere Satan awaits in 
ambush, seeking to condemn and deceive us.

I do think that if one has heard the Gospel, rejects it, and hardens his heart to the Cross, then this passage is basically acknowledging there's not much left to talk about; God has no greater weapon to convince one of the Truth. 

But plenty of examples exist in scripture where those who've fallen, and even fallen away, take a repentant posture, are restored and become useful if not 
heroic in the service of the Kingdom.

So is it wrong to say "once saved, always saved?"  I conclude not...however, (See Ronnie's work here) it would be incomplete.  

There is much richness in addressing and eliminating the fear, guilt and doubt cycle tied to these types of discussions. It begins and ends with Jesus Christ and His completed work.  100 percent of our debt paid 100 percent by our Savior... 
Our wellspring of righteousness.   Even our tears of repentance need to be washed in the blood of our Savior.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> Well, we can't have that now can we. But hey, if you want to be responsible for your salvation, have at it. God requires perfection, how much responsibility can you handle?



Over and
over and
over and 
over and over,
we've made it clear that nothing we do or anyone else does will "earn" passage into heaven.

So it would be nice if you wouldn't misdiagnose what we're saying.


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> Ephesians 2:8
> God saved you by his grace WHEN YOU BELIEVED And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God.
> 
> For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.
> 
> What is the free gift? Grace. Somehow the faith got added as the free gift.
> 
> Pulpit commentary:
> Verse 8. - For by grace have ye been saved, through faith. He repeats what he had said parenthetically (ver. 5), in order to open the subject up more fully. On the part of God, salvation is by grace; on the part of man, it is through faith. It does not come to us by an involuntary act, as light falls on our eyes, sounds on our ears, or air enters our lungs. When we are so far enlightened as to understand about it, there must be a personal reception of salvation by us, and that is by faith. Faith at once believes the good news of a free salvation through Christ, and accepts Christ as the Savior



I agree. Through faith. If it wasn't because of faith. All would be saved


----------



## M80

Ronnie T said:


> Over and
> over and
> over and
> over and over,
> we've made it clear that nothing we do or anyone else does will "earn" passage into heaven.
> 
> So it would be nice if you wouldn't misdiagnose what we're saying.



So you don't earn it, but what you do keeps it. That's working to keep it right


----------



## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> So you don't earn it, but what you do keeps it. That's working to keep it right



1st:  I don't work, I seek obedience to my Lord.
Why do I seek obedience to Christ?  Because one is a servant to the one he seeks to obey.

For illustrations of how "Christ in me" should show itself, see Jesus' comments to the churches in Rev 2 and 3.

Look at the thread I began earlier tonight.  The one no one is going to comment on!  In Paul's letter to the Christians in Philippi, Paul had expectations to how those people were to live their lives.  They had decisions to make.  They had choices to make.  NOT that God would do it for them. God had empowered them to act on their own.  They had to do it.

Paul said them same things to the Roman Christians, the Christians in Galatia, and all the other Christians.
And he says it to you and I.

Not so we can earn eternal salvation.
But so we can have eternal salvation.
(You say both those sentences say the same, I don't believe so).  And neither did the Holy Spirit.


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> Right back at you brother on the scripture thing, I  guess I'll just haft to stand on not of works lest any should boast. I guess y'all will boast one day before The Lord and say I'm glad I keep what you gave me. I'll say thank you for holding me in your hand



Proof positive that you don't understand what I believe... no matter how many times I say it, there's nothing to boast about.  You guys continually try to say "you're trusting in self"... SUBMISSION TO GOD IS NOT TRUSTING IN ONE'S SELF!!!  I'm standing in grace BY faith... a passage you've yet to address/explain (Ephesians 2:8).


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> So you don't earn it, but what you do keeps it.



Then one can do what he/she wishes.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Not we can earn eternal salvation.
> But so we can have eternal salvation.
> (You say both those sentences say the same, I don't believe so).  And neither did the Holy Spirit.


What is the Holy Spirit doing if they are acting on their own? You are killing me.


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> I agree. Through faith. If it wasn't because of faith. All would be saved



So you aren't actually of an "election" denomination?


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> Both are gifts. Where else can faith come from? Us? "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."



Read Romans 10:17... Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.  One... a person comes into contact with God's word.  Two, faith is produced in the heart of that person.  The passage you cite is dealing with people who are unwilling to submit to God - not man's nature.  BTW, when you say faith comes from God, can you find that clearly stated in the New Testament in a place like Romans 10:17 - where there is no doubt as to it's accuracy?


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Over and
> over and
> over and
> over and over,
> we've made it clear that nothing we do or anyone else does will "earn" passage into heaven.
> 
> So it would be nice if you wouldn't misdiagnose what we're saying.



Well, quit talking out of both sides of your mouth.


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> So you don't earn it, but what you do keeps it. That's working to keep it right



Why do we have New Covenant Commandments and why are we required to obey God?


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> Read Romans 10:17... Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.  One... a person comes into contact with God's word.  Two, faith is produced in the heart of that person.  The passage you cite is dealing with people who are unwilling to submit to God - not man's nature.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> What is the Holy Spirit doing if they are acting on their own? You are killing me.



The Holy Spirit is a comforter, guide, teacher, but best described as Helper. 
He's not some sort of puppet master. We weren't  totally depraved evil robots that suddenly became righteous robots by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


>



Expected nothing more from you but the usual... and you fulfilled my expectations.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> The Holy Spirit is a comforter, guide, teacher, but best described as Helper.


What good is a helper if we are acting on our own? Do ya'll even listen to yourselves?


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> Expected nothing more from you but the usual... and you fulfilled my expectations.


So faith is not a gift but comes by hearing only? What do you do with deaf people?


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> Well, quit talking out of both sides of your mouth.



      Right out of the middle.
.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> What is the Holy Spirit doing if they are acting on their own? You are killing me.



Go look at the new thread I began tonight, then you answer your own question, for you!

How bout the man who commits adultery, sinning against his own body, because the Spirit in living within him?

There's several concepts here that you'll need to acknowledge and understand.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> What good is a helper if we are acting on our own? Do ya'll even listen to yourselves?



You seriously can't see the difference between a teacher/helper/comforter and  a controller? 
You've never experienced anything like this in your life? No guidance from your Dad, comfort from your Mom, advice from a preacher, help from a teacher? 
All assisting you to do something on your own. You never do any research before doing something on your own? You never heed the advice of a doctor? lawer? Even though you will eventually act on your own.
Why did Jesus even ask his Father to send a Comforter? Why should Christians need a Comforter if secure in their salvation?


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> What good is a helper if we are acting on our own? Do ya'll even listen to yourselves?



It's late, you're getting sleepy, you're beginning to sound like one of the posters from the camp fire forum.
All sarcastic and everything.
I'd actually like to keep this at a point of proving and reproving scripture.


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> You seriously can't see the difference between a teacher/helper/comforter and  a controller? You've never experienced anything like this in your life? No guidance from your Dad, comfort from your Mom, advice from a preacher, help from a teacher?
> All assisting you to do something on your own. You never do any research before doing something on your own? You never heed the advice of a doctor? lawer? Even though you will eventually act on your own.
> Whe did Jesus even ask his Father to send a Comforter?



I think he can, I just think he ain't goin there.
.


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> So faith is not a gift but comes by hearing only? What do you do with deaf people?



Can you show me a passage in the NT which clearly states faith comes from God - in a way similar to the clarity of Romans 10:17?


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> So faith is not a gift but comes by hearing only? What do you do with deaf people?



I can only hope you are kidding, will the blind ever see the light? Will the lame ever walk?


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> It's late, you're getting sleepy, you're beginning to sound like one of the posters from the camp fire forum.
> All sarcastic and everything.
> I'd actually like to keep this at a point of proving and reproving scripture.


It is late but that doesn't prevent me from seeing the paradox in your post.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> I can only hope you are kidding, will the blind ever see the light? Will the lame ever walk?


Art, think spiritual. Do you think faith comes by physical hearing when scripture says "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."?

If we can seek by our will, why does scripture tell us that "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day."?

Why do we have to be dragged if we can be willing? If we are dragged, where is your free will?


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> All assisting you to do something on your own.


Are you doing something on your own or are you assisted? If you are assisted, are you alone?


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> Art, think spiritual. Do you think faith comes by physical hearing when scripture says "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."?
> 
> If we can seek by our will, why does scripture tell us that "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day."?
> 
> Why do we have to be dragged if we can be willing? If we are dragged, where is your free will?



Again, remember that the Gospel is not one dimensional......

"Faith comes from hearing".
You're only visiting one part of the Gospel.
.


----------



## Israel

Artfuldodger said:


> Why does God make us go through the motions of believing, obeying, forgiving, loving, and helping.
> Again, why do we have New Covenant commandments.



What does "go through the motions" mean, except doing something for show?
What are "new covenant" commandments?

What does it mean to "keep" the Lord's word?


----------



## hobbs27

gemcgrew said:


> Art, think spiritual.



 This I believe is where the two camps seperate!  Those that have an ear let them hear....that doesn't mean a physical ear!
  I've responded twice to this thread with  long explanations only to have them disappear into nowhere because my monopoly ISP wind stream went down yet again as it does 8 or more times a day, so I'm resorting to using my phone and 4g.  But I have a constant connection to my Lord, I can hang up and turn a deaf ear to Him on my side of the line but since He resides within me...His voice will find me even if its just wondering through the garden.
  To all born again Christians..you can run but you cannot hide, you are a debtor, you will be subject to chastisement, you will break from your disobedience, and the mess you made of your life while on the run God will make it into a message!


----------



## BT Charlie

Do we soar with pride when our motions going seem to have us doing well? And wallow in despair when it really sucks? Is that heart proof of salvation? Commended motions for going through: go in your closet, hit your knees, better yet...fall on your face...the repentant posture. Confess Christ as your Lord and Savior, ruler of all the little mental kingdoms you set up for yourself (myself).  The Kingdoms of Pride...Suckage Shire... Hand it all over...don't hang on to a thing.  Pray for clarity on any human aspect you're clinging to.  Light up your dark; unflinching, bright hot holy Kleg, all on your face in your closet. 100 percent of your debt paid 100 percent by Christ's completed work... Not much room for me, myself and I -- Larry, Curly and Moe -- in that math.

Know that this thing that seems like your original desire to know God is of God and first came from God...which is a useful handle to reel pride in once in awhile.

Yet He demands our answer to his first love for us, no? Can serfs of Suckage Shire admit that without boasting or cheapening 100 percent? Face down,  can we nod and shout Yes! Come Lord... or are we going through motions still?

I will go to Ronnie's new thread and try to hang out there...


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> Can you show me a passage in the NT which clearly states faith comes from God - in a way similar to the clarity of Romans 10:17?


"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."

Think about it.


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> So you aren't actually of an "election" denomination?



If you mean by elect "Calvinism" I do not believe that way or of a donimonation like that. I am baptist. It is a whosever will. It is our choice whether we except him or reject him. I know about predestination and I understand that God is all knowing. He knew whether we would except him or reject him but he still gave us the decision. To many verses that state"whosever shall call""for god so loved the world""not willing that any should perish".


----------



## M80

gemcgrew said:


> Art, think spiritual. Do you think faith comes by physical hearing when scripture says "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."?
> 
> If we can seek by our will, why does scripture tell us that "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day."?
> 
> Why do we have to be dragged if we can be willing? If we are dragged, where is your free will?



I don't believe we are dragged. I believe we are drawn by god to his son. It takes that convicting power(drawing) to bring someone to repentance.


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## Artfuldodger

We have discussed "proof" or "evidence" of salvation on another thread but it seems appropriate  to discuss it here.

When we meet professed Christians who don't know God from an acorn, can we still assume they are saved? 
What about fruit? No fruit is necessary?
They were saved years ago in their "moment of salvation." Perhaps they did produce fruit for a few years but stopped.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> We have discussed "proof" or "evidence" of salvation on another thread but it seems appropriate  to discuss it here.
> 
> When we meet professed Christians who don't know God from an acorn, can we still assume they are saved?
> What about fruit? No fruit is necessary?
> They were saved years ago in their "moment of salvation." Perhaps they did produce fruit for a few years but stopped.



I cannot judge who has been saved and who has not, but there are some people you meet, with just a little talking to the spirit will bear witness, and you will know you are brethren.


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> We have discussed "proof" or "evidence" of salvation on another thread but it seems appropriate  to discuss it here.
> 
> When we meet professed Christians who don't know God from an acorn, can we still assume they are saved?
> What about fruit? No fruit is necessary?
> They were saved years ago in their "moment of salvation." Perhaps they did produce fruit for a few years but stopped.



There's no such thing as a hollow Christian.  If they are clothed in Christ, and the Holy Spirit lives within them how could they be?  Not possible.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> I cannot judge who has been saved and who has not, but there are some people you meet, with just a little talking to the spirit will bear witness, and you will know you are brethren.



I would agree that some Christians do show fruits of being saved but I'm talking about the lukewarm Christians. The ones who were saved in a moment's time by grace alone 10 years ago who are no longer showing any fruits of being a Christian.
I would rather believe God will round them up again as some believe than to say "they were never saved to begin with."
Believeing they were never saved to begin doesn't sound much like "grace alone" doctrine.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Art, think spiritual. Do you think faith comes by physical hearing when scripture says "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."?
> 
> If we can seek by our will, why does scripture tell us that "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day."?
> 
> Why do we have to be dragged if we can be willing? If we are dragged, where is your free will?



You do bring up some good verses that I don't totally understand.
I do see a certain paradox in your beliefs as in mine and Ronnies. I see a certain paradox in the Bible when it comes to predestination & freewill. At least I can admit that.
I can only go with the way the Spirit leads me as with you.

You can even use this response against me. I said the way the Spirit leads me. Where he leads me I will follow.


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> I don't believe we are dragged. I believe we are drawn by god to his son. It takes that convicting power(drawing) to bring someone to repentance.



On that we can agree. God calls we answer. But you do know that takes something a man must do. I would also add believe, repent, and obedience are other requirements man must do.
How would you say God calls or elects someone in a tropical rain forest?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> There's no such thing as a hollow Christian.  If they are clothed in Christ, and the Holy Spirit lives within them how could they be?  Not possible.



Sure they are, I see them even in Church. Either they were never saved which can't be true or that would dispute "grace alone" or they are just biding their time until God wakes them up again. 
You've got to remember, no one can snatch them from the hand of God.


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> Sure they are, I see them even in Church. Either they were never saved which can't be true or that would dispute "grace alone" or they are just biding their time until God wakes them up again.
> You've got to remember, no one can snatch them from the hand of God.



So are you now back to believing OSAS or just kidding


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> On that we can agree. God calls we answer. But you do know that takes something a man must do. I would also add believe, repent, and obedience are other requirements man must do.
> How would you say God calls or elects someone in a tropical rain forest?



Missionary's, but we don't need to get started in this thread about the rapture and the tribulation if they never heard The Word


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> Missionary's, but we don't need to get started in this thread about the rapture and the tribulation if they never heard The Word



I just wanted to point out to others, not you, another thing man must do. Otherwise God could call people who have never heard the Word.


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> So are you now back to believing OSAS or just kidding



Just kidding but I do see a paradox. I'm beginning to believe everything isn't as cut and dry as we might think. You and others see standing strong in your beliefs as a good thing. That's fine if you are right but what if you are wrong?
I on the other hand am constantly seeking the "Light." I too see this is a good thing. I too could be just as wrong but at least I'm willing to change.
My Biblical learning isn't over yet, is yours?


----------



## Artfuldodger

How does keeping the New Covenant enter into our salvation?  The New Covenant contains many obligations of Christians. When we choose not to keep our part of the covenant we are disregarding the Lord for our own selfish pursuits. James was concerned with Christians reverting back to selfish pursuits.
Selfish pursuits could be a main reason to prevent us from keeping our part of our covenant with God.


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> "And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."
> 
> Think about it.



This passage (John 6:65) doesn't answer the question I posed to you.  Where is a NT passage which says "faith" comes from God - similar to the language of Romans 10:17?

In response to this passage, however, the word translated "given" in the KJV can mean either "given something one did not formerly possess" OR "granted/allowed".  That's why several versions render it "granted".  When we see how God saves people (through preaching of gospel and man's belief), the way God "allows" people to come to Christ is by contacting the gospel message.  Simply to cite the word "given" doesn't prove anything.


----------



## hobbs27

Bama4me said:


> This passage (John 6:65) doesn't answer the question I posed to you.  Where is a NT passage which says "faith" comes from God - similar to the language of Romans 10:17?
> 
> In response to this passage, however, the word translated "given" in the KJV can mean either "given something one did not formerly possess" OR "granted/allowed".  That's why several versions render it "granted".  When we see how God saves people (through preaching of gospel and man's belief), the way God "allows" people to come to Christ is by contacting the gospel message.  Simply to cite the word "given" doesn't prove anything.



You must be looking for Hebrews 12:2 which claims Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith..


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> Art, think spiritual. Do you think faith comes by physical hearing when scripture says "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."?
> 
> If we can seek by our will, why does scripture tell us that "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day."?
> 
> Why do we have to be dragged if we can be willing? If we are dragged, where is your free will?



In the first passage, does Romans 3:11 mean "no one can understand and no one can seek"?  Or, does it mean "no one is understanding and no one is seeking"?  I think an examination of Lamentations 3:25 suggest the answer is the latter of the two... not that it's impossible for man to accomplish.

In the second passage (John 6:44), you bear the burden of proof to show HOW He draws people to Christ.  Jesus used the same word in John 12:32 - "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Me."  The way, according to Jesus, that people would be drawn to Him was through His crucifixion - which is primary to the gospel message.

Again, looking for that NT passage that says faith comes from God - similar to the way it's cited in Romans 10:17 (clear statement).


----------



## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> You must be looking for Hebrews 12:2 which claims Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith..



In the sense of "he gave it to us" or in the sense of "it's where our faith is based"?  When the 12 asked Jesus to "increase our faith" (Luke 17:5), how did He respond - with an answer which indicated faith was "doled out" by the Father or one indicating that development of one's faith was his responsibility?

Will give you props... you cited a passage.


----------



## hobbs27

Bama4me said:


> In the sense of "he gave it to us" or in the sense of "it's where our faith is based"?  When the 12 asked Jesus to "increase our faith" (Luke 17:5), how did He respond - with an answer which indicated faith was "doled out" by the Father or one indicating that development of one's faith was his responsibility?
> 
> Will give you props... you cited a passage.




doled out....as this scripture makes very clear.

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

 The reason Paul tells them this is to keep them from boasting with pride...much as some men would do over their knowledge of the bible. 

 I think it was Ben Franklin that wrote down a list of things he could change about himself to make himself a better man, then he realized humility was missing from his list. As he worked down the list he recorded his progress, and as he worked really hard on humility for a week or so he recorded how well he had done being humble......only to realize he had just boasted!  

 I have nothing that wasn't given to me by the Lord. I can try to plan out goals and schedules for the rest of my life, yet my Lord can come by whenever He decides and wipe away all the work I did toward those goals and set me on a new track. What our future holds we dont know, its all in the Lords hands....even the next breathe we take is because of His grace which He has given us.


----------



## M80

hobbs27 said:


> doled out....as this scripture makes very clear.
> 
> Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
> 
> The reason Paul tells them this is to keep them from boasting with pride...much as some men would do over their knowledge of the bible.
> 
> I think it was Ben Franklin that wrote down a list of things he could change about himself to make himself a better man, then he realized humility was missing from his list. As he worked down the list he recorded his progress, and as he worked really hard on humility for a week or so he recorded how well he had done being humble......only to realize he had just boasted!
> 
> I have nothing that wasn't given to me by the Lord. I can try to plan out goals and schedules for the rest of my life, yet my Lord can come by whenever He decides and wipe away all the work I did toward those goals and set me on a new track. What our future holds we dont know, its all in the Lords hands....even the next breathe we take is because of His grace which He has given us.



Amen brother and I think you handled yourself very well towards the little comment


----------



## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> doled out....as this scripture makes very clear.
> 
> Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
> 
> The reason Paul tells them this is to keep them from boasting with pride...much as some men would do over their knowledge of the bible.
> 
> I think it was Ben Franklin that wrote down a list of things he could change about himself to make himself a better man, then he realized humility was missing from his list. As he worked down the list he recorded his progress, and as he worked really hard on humility for a week or so he recorded how well he had done being humble......only to realize he had just boasted!
> 
> I have nothing that wasn't given to me by the Lord. I can try to plan out goals and schedules for the rest of my life, yet my Lord can come by whenever He decides and wipe away all the work I did toward those goals and set me on a new track. What our future holds we dont know, its all in the Lords hands....even the next breathe we take is because of His grace which He has given us.



Do you believe the Lord was leading the Christian minister who murdered the Louisiana abortion doctor several years ago?
Sometimes, when we claim the "Lord is leading me", the Lord probably wishes we'd leave His name out of it.
If the Lord leads and dictates every movement and every action of God's children, 90 percent of the Gospel would be in error, for most of it is instructing 1st century Christians on how to live Christ-like lives.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Could  Hebrews 12:2 be talking about Jesus being the "reason" of our faith or "example"? His sacrifice would make him the "finisher." If the word "our" was added, that changes the meaning.

commentaries:

Barnes: The author and finisher of our faith - The word "our" is not in the original here, and obscures the sense. The meaning is, he is the first and the last as an example of faith or of confidence in God - occupying in this, as in all other things, the pre-eminence, and being the most complete model that can be placed before us. 
It does not occur elsewhere in the New Testament. The phrase "the beginner of faith," or the leader on of faith, would express the idea. He is at the head of all those who have furnished an example of confidence in God, for he was himself the most illustrious instance of it.

Clarke: The author and finisher of - faith - Αρχηγος, translated here author, signifies, in general, captain or leader, or the first inventor of a thing; see Hebrews 2:10. But the reference seems to be here to the βραβευς, or judge in the games, whose business it was to admit the contenders, and to give the prize to the conqueror. Jesus is here represented as this officer; every Christian is a contender in this race of life, and for eternal life.

Gill:  as "the author and finisher of faith": he is the author or efficient cause of it; all men are by nature without it; it is not in the power of man to believe of himself; it is a work of omnipotence; it is an instance of the exceeding greatness of the power of God; and it is the operation of Christ, by his Spirit; and the increase of it is from him, Luke 17:5 and he is the finisher of it; he gives himself,

Vincent: The author and finisher of our faith (τὸν τῆς πίστεως ἀρχηγὸν καὶ τελειωτὴν)

The A.V. is misleading, and narrows the scope of the passage. For author, rend. leader or captain, and see on Hebrews 2:10. For finisher, rend. perfecter. For our faith, rend. faith or the faith. Not our Christian faith, but faith absolutely, as exhibited in the whole range of believers from Abel to Christ. Christ cannot be called the author or originator of faith, since the faith here treated existed and worked before Christ. Christ is the leader or captain of faith, in that he is the perfecter of faith.


----------



## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> Do you believe the Lord was leading the Christian minister who murdered the Louisiana abortion doctor several years ago?
> Sometimes, when we claim the "Lord is leading me", the Lord probably wishes we'd leave His name out of it.
> If the Lord leads and dictates every movement and every action of God's children, 90 percent of the Gospel would be in error, for most of it is instructing 1st century Christians on how to live Christ-like lives.



 Ronnie, I can only speak for myself and my own experiences. I dont think Jim Jones or his ilk are sitting in heaven..or awaiting it. I dont think they were ever brothers of ours... and I disagree with you that the Gospel is in error if a man is led by the Lord.
 I believe a man can be saved by our Lord from hearing the preached word of the gospel, having faith in it, and can live the rest of His life as a Christian without ever reading or hearing the preached word again, by the aid of the Holy Spirit which can break boundries of language, geographics, and handicaps.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter 

Jesus, the source and perfecter of our faith

Jesus, the source and goal of our faith

Jesus, the leader and completer of faith

It appears we all see what we want to see, me included. We need to test the spirits-doctrine.


----------



## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> doled out....as this scripture makes very clear.
> 
> Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
> 
> The reason Paul tells them this is to keep them from boasting with pride...much as some men would do over their knowledge of the bible.
> 
> I think it was Ben Franklin that wrote down a list of things he could change about himself to make himself a better man, then he realized humility was missing from his list. As he worked down the list he recorded his progress, and as he worked really hard on humility for a week or so he recorded how well he had done being humble......only to realize he had just boasted!
> 
> I have nothing that wasn't given to me by the Lord. I can try to plan out goals and schedules for the rest of my life, yet my Lord can come by whenever He decides and wipe away all the work I did toward those goals and set me on a new track. What our future holds we dont know, its all in the Lords hands....even the next breathe we take is because of His grace which He has given us.



OK... then explain Romans 10:17.  At best, you have that faith comes from God AND man.  At worst for those subscribing to OSAS is that the means by which God allows our faith is through His word.  But again, Jesus said "If YOU had faith"... implying that He doesn't simply pass it out without man having a part in the process.  Jude told brethren to "build yourselves up in your most holy faith" and "keep yourselves in the love of God" (Jude 20-21).


----------



## Artfuldodger

I can't fathom Jesus questioning everyone's faith in the New Testament if it was a total 100% gift. 
Why would he say "You of little faith, why are you so afraid?" 

"Most certainly I tell you, if you have faith, and don't doubt"

"Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralyzed man"

"You didn't have enough faith"

"but you ignore the important things of the law--justice, mercy, and faith."

"But when I, the Son of Man, return, how many will I find who have faith?"

Does that sound like our faith in Jesus? It does to me.

God is our Father, not our Godfather!


----------



## Artfuldodger

From the apostles & epistles;

[Gal3:26] 26For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus.

[1Ti5:8] 8But if anyone doesn't provide for his own, and especially his own household, he has denied the faith, and is worse than an unbeliever.

[Jam2:14-24] 14What good is it, my brothers, if a man says he has faith, but has no works? Can faith save him? 

[Jam2:26] 26For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead.

Acts 20:21I have had one message for Jews and Gentiles alike--the necessity of turning from sin and turning to God, and of faith in our Lord Jesus.

Romans 3:27Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on our good deeds. It is based on our faith.

2 Corinthians 13:5Examine yourselves to see if your faith is really genuine. Test yourselves. If you cannot tell that Jesus Christ is among you, [ Or in you.] it means you have failed the test.

Does those verses not pertain to our faith in Jesus?
Could I also find Old Testament verses about people having or not having faith in God? 

I don't believe God will punish someone for not having faith, if said faith is all from him. Why would he do that?


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## Artfuldodger

Subjective Faith
It is a faith accompanied by action (James 2:14) and revealed in benevolence (v. 15-16). It is vibrant in spirit (v. 17) and visibly demonstrable (v. 18). It transcends mere demonic “faith” (v. 19). It is fruitful (v. 20) and obediently sacrificial (vv. 21-23). It is the faithfulness that justifies (v. 24) and for which there is precedent in principle even from unexpected sources (v. 25). This faith stands in bold contrast to the “corpse” dogma that faith alone procures salvation (v. 26).

Faithfulness is the unswerving conviction that Jesus Christ is the Son of God combined with the disposition to trust one’s soul to him for salvation and care, undergirded by a determination to obey his commands without reservation (cf. Thayer 1958, 511).

A Concluding Warning

In effect, therefore, Paul urges these folks: “Keep on testing yourselves; or do you fail to appreciate the relationship you have with Christ? Unless, of course, you flunk the test and are demonstrated to be worthless!”

This context contains a solemn warning against the illusion of false security. It urges a personal, honest, objective, purposeful, and sustained self-examination to be assured of right-standing with the Lord. It is a precautionary admonition needed by every person who professes reverence for the Son of God and the redemptive system he inaugurated by means of his death.

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1445-examine-yourselves


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## christianhunter

I'll believe John 3:16,and let this never ending argument continue...


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## M80

christianhunter said:


> I'll believe John 3:16,and let this never ending argument continue...


----------



## centerpin fan

christianhunter said:


> I'll believe John 3:16,and let this never ending argument continue...



Me too!


----------



## hobbs27

Bama4me said:


> OK... then explain Romans 10:17.



Theres 3 different elements of faiths spoken of in the bible. In this particular verse.  Noticia

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 The first element of saving faith is noticia or knowledge, which points to the fact that genuine faith must believe something. In other words, it must have an intellectual content. It cannot be empty or blind but must be based upon the knowledge of certain fundamental truths.

 Another way of saying it would be,  knowledge of Christ our saviour comes by hearing, and hearing by the preached word. 

 below is copy and paste from 

http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/what-faith-and-not/

 The second element of saving faith is assensus, or assent. This refers to the intellectual conviction that the knowledge one possesses is factually true and personally beneficial. It is not enough simply to know certain things. We must also believe that those things are true and actually meet our needs. We see this element of faith portrayed in Scripture passages such as John 5:46–47; 8:31–38, 45–46; 10:37–38; 14:11.


The third element of saving faith is fiducia, or trust. It is by far the most important of the three elements we have mentioned. Without this element, faith is merely an intellectual enterprise—much like the “faith” of demons, who know the truth about Jesus but refuse to trust Him because they hate what they know to be true (James 2:19; Matt. 8:29). This element consists in a personal trust in Christ as He is offered in the gospel and a complete reliance upon Him for salvation. It is seen in passages that talk about believing “in,” “upon,” or “into” Jesus (for example, John 3:15–16; Rom. 9:33; 10:11) and in passages that speak of “leaning” or “resting” upon Jesus (Ps. 71:5–6; Prov. 3:5–6), “looking” to Him (John 6:40; Heb. 12:1–2), and “committing” oneself to Him (2 Tim. 1:12; Matt. 11:28; Ps. 37:5).


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## Artfuldodger

christianhunter said:


> I'll believe John 3:16,and let this never ending argument continue...



In a lot of our heated debates that verse is often mentioned as the only verse needed to live a Christian life and inherit God's Kingdom.
It would be a short Bible if that's all that is needed. I might move foward a few verses and add John 3:20 also to this small Bible.

Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.


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## Artfuldodger

Is ISAS different from OSAS? I think we should call it Perseverance of the Saints.

Followers of this faith should use this slogan:

Once Saved, Always Saved? Salvation or Probation?

 We cannot lose salvation because salvation is not of ourselves, it is a gift.  The kingdom is a different deal.  After all, we are saved from being ignorant sinners.  If by ignorance and sin we err, that’s the glory of grace.   But beware the Father’s heavy hand.

http://www.baptist.org/once-saved-always-saved-salvation-or-probation/


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Theres 3 different elements of faiths spoken of in the bible. In this particular verse.  Noticia
> 
> 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
> 
> The first element of saving faith is noticia or knowledge, which points to the fact that genuine faith must believe something. In other words, it must have an intellectual content. It cannot be empty or blind but must be based upon the knowledge of certain fundamental truths.
> 
> Another way of saying it would be,  knowledge of Christ our saviour comes by hearing, and hearing by the preached word.
> 
> below is copy and paste from
> 
> http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/what-faith-and-not/
> 
> The second element of saving faith is assensus, or assent. This refers to the intellectual conviction that the knowledge one possesses is factually true and personally beneficial. It is not enough simply to know certain things. We must also believe that those things are true and actually meet our needs. We see this element of faith portrayed in Scripture passages such as John 5:46–47; 8:31–38, 45–46; 10:37–38; 14:11.
> 
> 
> The third element of saving faith is fiducia, or trust. It is by far the most important of the three elements we have mentioned. Without this element, faith is merely an intellectual enterprise—much like the “faith” of demons, who know the truth about Jesus but refuse to trust Him because they hate what they know to be true (James 2:19; Matt. 8:29). This element consists in a personal trust in Christ as He is offered in the gospel and a complete reliance upon Him for salvation. It is seen in passages that talk about believing “in,” “upon,” or “into” Jesus (for example, John 3:15–16; Rom. 9:33; 10:11) and in passages that speak of “leaning” or “resting” upon Jesus (Ps. 71:5–6; Prov. 3:5–6), “looking” to Him (John 6:40; Heb. 12:1–2), and “committing” oneself to Him (2 Tim. 1:12; Matt. 11:28; Ps. 37:5).



I would think most Christians would agree with what you are posting. 1)You can't have faith in Jesus if you haven't heard of Jesus. 2) You have to believe it's gonna do you some good. 3) You couldn't have or keep faith in Jesus if you didn't have or lose your trust in him. His trust is the main basis of our faith.

That does make it clearer where faith comes from.


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## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> Again, looking for that NT passage that says faith comes from God - similar to the way it's cited in Romans 10:17 (clear statement).


I do not see how it can be any clearer than it is in Ephesians 2:8.

Do you not see faith, in any form, as a gift of God?


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> I do not see how it can be any clearer than it is in Ephesians 2:8.
> 
> Do you not see faith, in any form, as a gift of God?



I can't speak for Bama but yes I do see us receiving a measure of faith from God. 
Ephesians 2: 8 isn't about this measure.

Ephesians 2:8
God saved you by his grace WHEN YOU BELIEVED And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God.

For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

What is the free gift? Grace. Somehow the faith got added as the free gift.

Pulpit commentary:
Verse 8. - For by grace have ye been saved, through faith. He repeats what he had said parenthetically (ver. 5), in order to open the subject up more fully. On the part of God, salvation is by grace; on the part of man, it is through faith. It does not come to us by an involuntary act, as light falls on our eyes, sounds on our ears, or air enters our lungs. When we are so far enlightened as to understand about it, there must be a personal reception of salvation by us, and that is by faith. Faith at once believes the good news of a free salvation through Christ, and accepts Christ as the Savior


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## Artfuldodger

Ephesians 2:5 makes it even more clear:
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Verse 4 says God's love made us alive.


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## Artfuldodger

Reading Ephesians 2:8 to include everything in the verse would also include our believing is from God also.
God saved you by his grace WHEN YOU BELIEVED. 

Ephesians 2:8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God.


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## Artfuldodger

Why didn't verse 5 include faith or believing as coming totally from God?


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> Why didn't verse 5 include faith or believing as coming totally from God?


Back up a little bit. What picture is Paul providing of man's spiritual condition?
Spiritually dead, (transgressions and sins). (v. 1)
Follows the world and the devil, (disobedience). (v. 2)
Follows the flesh. (v. 3)

Where is salvation?
"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins" (v. 1)
"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)" (v. 4)

Man can not decide to receive from God, when man is spiritually dead.  Man receives from God only because God has made him spiritually alive.
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."(1 Corinthians 2:14)

Grace and Faith are gifts of God. "Salvation is of the Lord".


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## Artfuldodger

2 Peter 2:22: (Returns, goes back, you can't return if you never left)
Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

Clarke's commentary on this verse;
Here is a sad proof of the possibility of falling from grace, and from very high degrees of it too. These had escaped from the contagion that was in the world; they had had true repentance, and cast up "their soursweet morsel of sin;" they had been washed from all their filthiness, and this must have been through the blood of the Lamb; yet, after all, they went back, got entangled with their old sins, swallowed down their formerly rejected lusts, and rewallowed in the mire of corruption. It is no wonder that God should say, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning: reason and nature say it must be so; and Divine justice says it ought to be so; and the person himself must confess that it is right that it should be so. But how dreadful is this state! How dangerous when the person has abandoned himself to his old sins! Yet it is not said that it is impossible for him to return to his Maker; though his case be deplorable, it is not utterly hopeless; the leper may yet be made clean, and the dead may be raised. Reader, is thy backsliding a grief and burden to thee? Then thou art not far from the kingdom of God; believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved


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## Artfuldodger

2 John 1:9 Anyone who wanders away from this teaching has no relationship with God. But anyone who remains in the teaching of Christ has a relationship with both the Father and the Son.

2 Peter 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

2 Peter 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
(I wanted to beat you to this verse, Gem. Does this verse mean they weren't elected yet?)


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## hobbs27

gemcgrew said:


> Grace and Faith are gifts of God. "Salvation is of the Lord".



 Im starting to understand a little more about the doctrine of predestination vs freewill. Forgive me for my ignorance of the two, its just not something spoken of much in my geographic area.
 I see that a regenerated Christian..aka Born again, or aka  a Christian. Has no more control over their spiritual birth as they did their physical. Yet there is one thing that continues to trouble me. Are reprobates born reprobate or does God turn them over to a reprobate mind once they blaspheme the HS { deny} . This has been my longtime understanding...blasphemy of the HS is the only sin that is unforgiveable, it is the HS that convicts or draws one to Jesus.
 I also can understand that God knows all, to whom are to be saved and those that will not be saved from the foundation of the world, yet The blood of Christ is sufficient to save the whole world. 
 So, what camp does this put me in, or am I somewhere between? God knows all that will accept, Jesus provided a way for all, some will reject, yet spend eternity in torment knowing they denied the call.


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## Artfuldodger

And I'm still trying to figure out the purpose of New Testament commandments in relation to the Kingdom of God. Is the Kingdom of God even related to Salvation?

1 John 3:22
And whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.

Proverbs 28:9
If one turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer is an abomination.

If ye love Me [Jesus], keep My commandments (Jn. 14:15).

"The one who says, "I have come to know Him [Jesus], and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1 Jn. 2:4).

He that hath My commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him (Jn. 14:21).

IF ye keep My commandments, ye shall abide in My love (Jn. 15:10).

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven (Mt. 5:19).

Every one that heareth these sayings of Mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand...and it fell: and great was the fall of it (Mt. 7:26-27).

Why call ye Me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? (Lk. 6:46).

When ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have [only] done that which was our duty to do (Lk. 17:10).

The Law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ (Jn. 1:17).

Christ is the end of the [Old Covenant] Law for righteousness to every one that believeth (Rm. 10:4).

Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the [New Covenant] commandments of God (1 Cor. 7:19).

If ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the [Old Covenant] Law (Gal. 5:18).

If that first [Old] covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second (Heb. 8:7).

He [Jesus] is the mediator of the new testament (Heb. 9:15a). Jesus [is] the mediator of the new covenant (Heb. 12:24).

Hereby we do know that we know Him [Jesus], if we keep His commandments. He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him (1 Jn. 2:3-5).

Whatsoever we ask, we receive of him [God], because we keep His commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight (1 Jn. 3:22).

He that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him (1 Jn. 3:24).

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous (1 Jn. 5:2-3).

Blessed are they that do His [Jesus'] commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city [New Jerusalem] (Rev. 22:14).


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## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> Back up a little bit. What picture is Paul providing of man's spiritual condition?
> Spiritually dead, (transgressions and sins). (v. 1)
> Follows the world and the devil, (disobedience). (v. 2)
> Follows the flesh. (v. 3)
> 
> Where is salvation?
> "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins" (v. 1)
> "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)" (v. 4)
> 
> Man can not decide to receive from God, when man is spiritually dead.  Man receives from God only because God has made him spiritually alive.
> "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."(1 Corinthians 2:14)
> 
> Grace and Faith are gifts of God. "Salvation is of the Lord".



In answer to your previous question about faith coming from God, there is a sense in which that is correct.  If faith comes via hearing God's word and the bible originated from God, then yes... faith "comes from God" and is seen as "a gift from God."

However, the sense that it is being advance here is that people are passive players when it comes to faith... and the growth of it in their lives.  Adding to the difficulty of discussing this idea is the belief that some have in total depravity - that there is NOTHING good which can come from a person until God provides a "heart makeover"... the idea you've advanced above.

The fact a person being referred to as "spiritually dead" allows us to infer that there's nothing good produced by him/her prior to conversion is taking the imagery much further than the rest of the Scriptures allow.  Jesus, in Matthew 18:1ff, said that His followers must become like little children to enter the kingdom of heaven.  IF people cannot produce anything acceptable to God prior to being "quickened", Jesus must have been mistaken.  Also, one has to answer how Cornelius' prayers/alms "came up to God as a memorial" if a non-believer cannot offer God anything acceptable.

Earlier in this thread, you claimed I took imagery too far in my reasoning.  The same applies to your use of "dead".  Regarding the reference to 1 Corinthians 2:14, the verse (in the larger context) has application to the supernatural gifts that existed in the 1st Century to make the gospel known to mankind.  In 1:18-2:5, Paul made it clear that the gospel didn't originate from man in general... or even from him (though he was the messenger).  The message came from the Holy Spirit - who at that time allowed the followers of Christ to miraculously know His will apart from the written word.  In that context, 2:14 reinforces the development of that teaching.  A person during that time period couldn't receive direct revelation from God except through the Spirit - he couldn't receive it from a human source of origination.  However, that was a time period prior to the collection of the written word... a time period in which gifts of the Spirit (I.e. prophecy, tongues, etc.) were distributed when apostles laid hands of those who had believed.  However, that's a different discussion that what were engaged with here.


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## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> Im starting to understand a little more about the doctrine of predestination vs freewill. Forgive me for my ignorance of the two, its just not something spoken of much in my geographic area.
> I see that a regenerated Christian..aka Born again, or aka  a Christian. Has no more control over their spiritual birth as they did their physical. Yet there is one thing that continues to trouble me. Are reprobates born reprobate or does God turn them over to a reprobate mind once they blaspheme the HS { deny} . This has been my longtime understanding...blasphemy of the HS is the only sin that is unforgiveable, it is the HS that convicts or draws one to Jesus.
> I also can understand that God knows all, to whom are to be saved and those that will not be saved from the foundation of the world, yet The blood of Christ is sufficient to save the whole world.
> So, what camp does this put me in, or am I somewhere between? God knows all that will accept, Jesus provided a way for all, some will reject, yet spend eternity in torment knowing they denied the call.



It boils down to whether you believe man is an "active player" in the salvation scenario or simply "passive"... having everything done for/to him.  Many believing in OSAS subsequently also believe in other Calvinistic ideas as well (unconditional election, irresistible grace, etc.).


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## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> Jesus, in Matthew 18:1ff, said that His followers must become like little children to enter the kingdom of heaven.  IF people cannot produce anything acceptable to God prior to being "quickened", Jesus must have been mistaken.


"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

"“Except ye be converted.” This is something that is done to us and not something we do. 

"I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God. Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth." (Jeremiah 31:18,19)

"Turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old." (Lamentations 5:21)

Conversion is a change of natures, as in "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."




Bama4me said:


> Also, one has to answer how Cornelius' prayers/alms "came up to God as a memorial" if a non-believer cannot offer God anything acceptable.


One would have to show Cornelius to be a non believer.


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## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> "And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."
> 
> "“Except ye be converted.” This is something that is done to us and not something we do.
> 
> "I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God. Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth." (Jeremiah 31:18,19)
> 
> "Turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old." (Lamentations 5:21)
> 
> Conversion is a change of natures, as in "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
> 
> 
> 
> One would have to show Cornelius to be a non believer.



Come on Gem... you know the word rendered "converted" in Matthew 18:3 in the KJV really means "turn".  Christ wasn't talking about their conversion (another Greek word entirely)... He was telling them they must turn from their selfish ambitions and become humble like children... not telling they "they must be converted and follow Him."  If you don't think this "holds water", go a chapter later and see Jesus say regarding little children "for to such belongs the kingdom of God."  "Depravity claims children are born sinful - and they are lost until their conversion.  Yet, our Lord on multiple occasions praised them for their good, commendable traits.  

Regarding Cornelius, if he was not lost then why did he need to hear and obey the gospel?

Regarding your passage in Jeremiah, you have to balance that with Ezekiel 28:15.  Speaking of the king of Tyre, God said... "You were blameless in your ways from the day you we recreated, till unrighteousness was found in you." The Jeremiah passage, thus HAS to imply a choice was made to do lawless things in the past.

Regarding "all things becoming new" from 2 Corinthians 5:17, a study of the Greek will show the KJV translation is in the minority.  The ASV, probably the most literal of all translations, renders it "the old things are passed away; behold they are become new." The NASB renders it "the oldthungs passed away; behold new things have come." The ESV renders it "the old has passed away; behold the new has come".

For those reading this thread and interested in studying ideas of Calvinism (I.e. hereditary depravity, once saved always saved)... you'll notice that most supporters cite passages from the KJV.  There's a reason for that... the KJV translators (and subsequently the NKJV translation team) often translated passages with a bias towards Calvinistic ideas.  If you'll consult other literal translations (I.e. ASV, NASB, ESV, etc.), you'll often see specific places where the KJV translators inserted their Calvinistic bias.  That's not to say the KJV is not a good translation... it is.  However, when using it, one needs to know the weaknesses it possesses.  Like I mentioned earlier, one way to make sure "it says what it seems to say" is to consult multiple translations which try to render the text in a literal (word for word) manner.


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## M80

Bama4me said:


> "Depravity claims children are born sinful - and they are lost until their conversion.  Yet, our Lord on multiple occasions praised them for their good, commendable .



Are saying little children before they get saved die and go to he11


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## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> Come on Gem... you know the word rendered "converted" in Matthew 18:3 in the KJV really means "turn".  Christ wasn't talking about their conversion (another Greek word entirely)... He was telling them they must turn from their selfish ambitions and become humble like children... not telling they "they must be converted and follow Him."  If you don't think this "holds water", go a chapter later and see Jesus say regarding little children "for to such belongs the kingdom of God."  "Depravity claims children are born sinful - and they are lost until their conversion.  Yet, our Lord on multiple occasions praised them for their good, commendable traits.
> 
> Regarding Cornelius, if he was not lost then why did he need to hear and obey the gospel?
> 
> Regarding your passage in Jeremiah, you have to balance that with Ezekiel 28:15.  Speaking of the king of Tyre, God said... "You were blameless in your ways from the day you we recreated, till unrighteousness was found in you." The Jeremiah passage, thus HAS to imply a choice was made to do lawless things in the past.
> 
> Regarding "all things becoming new" from 2 Corinthians 5:17, a study of the Greek will show the KJV translation is in the minority.  The ASV, probably the most literal of all translations, renders it "the old things are passed away; behold they are become new." The NASB renders it "theoldthungs passed away; behold new things have come." The ESV renders it "the old has passed away; behold the new has come".  The only translations that render it "all things" is the KJV/NKJV... and it's because of the (1) Calvinistic bias demonstrated by the translation team of the KJV and (2) the NKJV's desire to keep much of the same ideology of the KJV when the translation was composed.
> 
> For those reading this thread and interested in studying ideas of Calvinism (I.e. hereditary depravity, once saved always saved)... you'll notice that most supporters cite passages for the KJV.  There's a reason for that.  If you'll consult other literal translations (I.e. ASV, NASB, ESV, etc.), you'll see where the KJV translators inserted their Calvinistic bias to many passages.


You said all that, to say "if given enough time, man will translate the Word, right out of the words. You are probably correct in that sense.

As far as "turn" goes, you attribute it to man, I do not. "The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will."

God is sovereign, man is not free.


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## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> Are saying little children before they get saved die and go to he11



That's the teaching of hereditary depravity.  Children are born into this world bearing the sins of their parents - if true, children who die before conversion are eternally lost.


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## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> You said all that, to say "if given enough time, man will translate the Word, right out of the words. You are probably correct in that sense.
> 
> As far as "turn" goes, you attribute it to man, I do not. "The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will."
> 
> God is sovereign, man is not free.



No... when enough people have access to manuscripts, the flaws of older translations are often exposed.  Using your stated reasoning here, "older translations must always be better".  If that's true, why don't you use Wycliffe's Bible... it's older than the KJV?

The fact of the matter is that the KJV has a number of passages where a Calvinistic bias is observed.  A classic example is the phrase you cited from Matthew 18:3 (be converted).  The Greek word rendered in the KJV "be converted" appears 18 times in the New Testament.  EVERY TIME in the KJv except in Matthew 18:3, it is rendered "turn" (or a form of that word).  Yet, in this passage the translation team decided to use "be converted"... despite the testimony of the immediate context demanding the rendering of "turn" (from an attitude of "seeking greatness" to one of humility).  BTW, Wycliffe's Bible renders Matthew 18:3 as "turned"... not "converted."

There are many more occasions in the KJV which can be cited and easily exposed... to pretend they don't exist is being dishonest.  All translations have errors and contain some type of "translator bias".  As mentioned earlier, the way to best detect them is to compare a passage against other literal (word for word) translations.  The KJV bias towards calvinism in Matthew 18:3 is easily seen when you do this.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Bama4me said:


> That's the teaching of hereditary depravity.  Children are born into this world bearing the sins of their parents - if true, children who die before conversion are eternally lost.



But I'm sure their defence would be, God wouldn't take their life before conversion if they were of the "elect.  Child or grownup, it doesn't really matter if you are one of the "elect" it's just a matter of time before the Holy Spirit enters your body. 

Kinda like the phrase "they were never saved to begin with."


----------



## Artfuldodger

Bama4me said:


> No... when enough people have access to manuscripts, the flaws of older translations are often exposed.  Using your stated reasoning here, "older translations must always be better".  If that's true, why don't you use Wycliffe's Bible or the Latin Vulgate (both older than the KJV)?
> 
> The fact of the matter is that the KJV has a number of passages where a Calvinistic bias is observed.  A classic example is the phrase you cited from Matthew 18:3 (be converted).  The Greek word rendered in the KJV "be converted" appears 18 times in the New Testament.  EVERY TIME in the KJv except in Matthew 18:3, it is rendered "turn" (or a form of that word).  Yet, in this passage the translation team decided to use "be converted"... despite the testimony of the immediate context demanding the rendering of "turn" (from an attitude of "seeking greatness" to one of humility).
> 
> There are many more occasions in the KJV which can be cited and easily exposed... to pretend they don't exist is being dishonest.  All translations have errors and contain some type of "translator bias".  As mentioned earlier, the way to best detect them is to compare a passage against other literal (word for word) translations.  The KJV bias in Matthew 18:3 is easily seen when you do this.



I would agree, if the Word of God is as important as we say it is, why not use every resourse to get the most truth out of God's word? It helps tremendously to read as many different interpretations as possible. The closer to the original the better. We don't have to agree with every view. Inspiration is inspiration. Speak with several teachers/preachers. You do this with doctors, why not something as important as the Word of God?


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> "The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.".



Ah... you cite  wisdom literature.  We always have to be careful making doctrinal determination on the wisdom literature books alone (Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes).  Do you believe that a soft answer ALWAYS turns away wrath (Proverbs 15:1) and that beds literally "swim" (Psalm 6:6).


----------



## M80

Bama4me said:


> That's the teaching of hereditary depravity.  Children are born into this world bearing the sins of their parents - if true, children who die before conversion are eternally lost.



So you so believe that a child that doesn't understand salvation and sin is doomed to he11 and its his/her loss that they died before they where old enough to get saved. 

C'mon. What about aborted baby's


----------



## barryl

Am I on the right thread? I thought this was about how "you" can take "yourself" out. Not the first personal statement yet about how "you" did this, only hypotheticals or about anyone but "yourself". Heres another{Soteriology} Salvation Doctrine word. "Justification" is the judicial act of God whereby those who put faith in the Lord Jesus Christ are declared righteous in his eyes and are free fron guilt and punishment. Romans 4:3-5 KJV AV


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## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> Am I on the right thread? I thought this was about how "you" can take "yourself" out. Not the first personal statement yet about how "you" did this, only hypotheticals or about anyone but "yourself". Heres another{Soteriology} Salvation Doctrine word. "Justification" is the judicial act of God whereby those who put faith in the Lord Jesus Christ are declared righteous in his eyes and are free fron guilt and punishment. Romans 4:3-5 KJV AV



How you receive salvation or if man has any part of salvation such as "believing" or "faith" is related to the question of losing said salvation. 
If you believe you have no input into your salvation then of course you have no output to your salvation.


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## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> Am I on the right thread? I thought this was about how "you" can take "yourself" out. Not the first personal statement yet about how "you" did this, only hypotheticals or about anyone but "yourself". Heres another{Soteriology} Salvation Doctrine word. "Justification" is the judicial act of God whereby those who put faith in the Lord Jesus Christ are declared righteous in his eyes and are free fron guilt and punishment. Romans 4:3-5 KJV AV



Romans 4 is a great chapter that describes Abraham's Justification.
Abraham wasn't justified simply because he did what God instructed him to do......  Abraham was righteous because, as he blindly obeyed God's instructions, he had faith in God's will for him.  Whether it was (1)  traveling to a country he didn't even know, or (2) preparing to sacrifice his son.  
Abraham was a man who believed.
.


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> So you so believe that a child that doesn't understand salvation and sin is doomed to he11 and its his/her loss that they died before they where old enough to get saved.
> 
> C'mon. What about aborted baby's



No... no... I think it's false also.  Ezekiel 18:20 pretty much shoots holes in this theory.


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> So you so believe that a child that doesn't understand salvation and sin is doomed to he11 and its his/her loss that they died before they where old enough to get saved.
> 
> C'mon. What about aborted baby's



Bama4me doesn't believe in hereditary depravity. I don't either but if I did then my answer would be, they aren't part of the elect. God knew beforehand that he wasn't going to elect them.

To tie this back in to the OP would be an example of a Christian who goes astray under OSAS. God would not let them die in this state, he would call them back to the fold.
Unless they were never saved to begin with. That would be the answer if that person died while in the "fallen away" state.


----------



## Bama4me

barryl said:


> Am I on the right thread?



I'm sure you can find it discussed somewhere in here. If you're complaining because "taking yourself out" is not discussed in the thread, you haven't been listening well.  Any time you talk about one of the points of Calvinism (hereditary depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and perseverance of the saints), the discussion boils down to whether or not man has a role/responsibility in the salvation process.  Those subscribing to one of the points "take men out of the equation."

Maybe you were looking for some other kind of discussion? If so, maybe you can clarify exactly where you were hoping the discussion would go?


----------



## Artfuldodger

You would think if you believe man is in the equation before salvation, man would be in the equation after salvation. I would believe as Gem does before I would believe in, the man has some input before salvation as in not "totally depraved" and to no part after salvation.


----------



## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> Tell us how you can take yourself out. Chapter and Verse, stay out of the Faith and Works{Mosaic Law}, Trib., Mill., 2  advent and make sure you aren't privately interpreting scripture. Tell us how Jesus wasted his time dying on the Cross at Calvary.



You narrow down the Word of God to the point that most of us don't know what chapter & verses pertain to us.

My answer was in post #853. Wow we're almost to 1,000.


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Am I on the right thread? I thought this was about how "you" can take "yourself" out. Not the first personal statement yet about how "you" did this, only hypotheticals or about anyone but "yourself".



As I said before, someone who has abandoned God probably has better things to do than debate theology on an internet bulletin board.


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> No... when enough people have access to manuscripts, the flaws of older translations are often exposed.  Using your stated reasoning here, "older translations must always be better".  If that's true, why don't you use Wycliffe's Bible... it's older than the KJV?
> 
> The fact of the matter is that the KJV has a number of passages where a Calvinistic bias is observed.  A classic example is the phrase you cited from Matthew 18:3 (be converted).  The Greek word rendered in the KJV "be converted" appears 18 times in the New Testament.  EVERY TIME in the KJv except in Matthew 18:3, it is rendered "turn" (or a form of that word).  Yet, in this passage the translation team decided to use "be converted"... despite the testimony of the immediate context demanding the rendering of "turn" (from an attitude of "seeking greatness" to one of humility).  BTW, Wycliffe's Bible renders Matthew 18:3 as "turned"... not "converted."
> 
> There are many more occasions in the KJV which can be cited and easily exposed... to pretend they don't exist is being dishonest.  All translations have errors and contain some type of "translator bias".  As mentioned earlier, the way to best detect them is to compare a passage against other literal (word for word) translations.  The KJV bias towards calvinism in Matthew 18:3 is easily seen when you do this.


This does not help you. Give me your favorite translation and I will show you where the Creator is sovereign and the created is not free. I would say that most Calvinist do not use KJV.


----------



## ddd-shooter

The horse is dead. lol


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> This does not help you. Give me your favorite translation and I will show you where the Creator is sovereign and the created is not free. I would say that most Calvinist do not use KJV.



Doesn't really matter about a favorite translation... the fact that it's reliable is what's important.  Most Calvinists I've ever discussed things utilized the KJV... but again, that's me.

When you say "God is sovereign and man is not free", what you are saying is that man has no freedom to exercise choice to determine his/her life.  We've been through this on another thread - and the translation doesn't matter.  It's not a teaching that passes the test of (all) Scripture.  Wasn't really trying to steer the thread toward this topic... but there is a close relationship between OSAS and hereditary depravity.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.


Somehow I don't see where "works together" means "causes."


----------



## hobbs27

Bama4me said:


> It boils down to whether you believe man is an "active player" in the salvation scenario or simply "passive"... having everything done for/to him.  Many believing in OSAS subsequently also believe in other Calvinistic ideas as well (unconditional election, irresistible grace, etc.).



I was hoping to hear from gem on this, but Im a firm believer that once God has called on someone and saved them that He will not forsake them. I also believe that when God calls on someone they have an option to deny that calling, which I understand to be blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. 
 Those that die before the age of accountability are blessed with salvation. 
  Where does that put me? Closer to free will, or predestination? Like I said before there's no geographical experience for me. Theres no free will baptists or primitive baptists in my area, and its 35 miles to the nearest church of christ. 
 In my area theres an old time small baptist church that I cant explain doctrine in a paragraph, a fundamentalist baptist, a first baptist, then there's methodist and holiness and a few church of Gods....now over the past 10 years theres been a few more added to the area...mostly non-denominational---thats really shhhhh..pentacostal.... and those fancy new non church churchs'! 
 So where do I fall on this, and whats the norm?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

OSAS believers like to use the verse above but they don't use the preceding verses:
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.…

Why not take the plunge and go all the way?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> I was hoping to hear from gem on this, but Im a firm believer that once God has called on someone and saved them that He will not forsake them. I also believe that when God calls on someone they have an option to deny that calling, which I understand to be blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
> Those that die before the age of accountability are blessed with salvation.
> Where does that put me? Closer to free will, or predestination? Like I said before there's no geographical experience for me. Theres no free will baptists or primitive baptists in my area, and its 35 miles to the nearest church of christ.
> In my area theres an old time small baptist church that I cant explain doctrine in a paragraph, a fundamentalist baptist, a first baptist, then there's methodist and holiness and a few church of Gods....now over the past 10 years theres been a few more added to the area...mostly non-denominational---thats really shhhhh..pentacostal.... and those fancy new non church churchs'!
> So where do I fall on this, and whats the norm?



The norm is there isn't one. I tend to believe most Christians fall somewhere in the middle. It would be hard to believe God can't intervene as in prayer for instance.
Most of the world is Catholic who believe in free will. I believe Calvinism is on the rise. My mom's Southern Baptist's Sunday School teacher hints to predestination/election.

We do know God can harden one's heart for a certain reason. Can he harden a whole nation? Did he orchestrate the fall to send in his son? Did he cause the flood to give us an example of sending his son? Was the whole reason God gave Jews laws was to prove to them they could not follow them and thus needing a savior?

Whats funny is even Atheist are divided on free will and predestination.
It is easy to see that if God causes one situation, he causes all of them.
I don't believe that but I have thought about it enough to consider.

Then there is the belief that God doesn't cause but he knows. I don't really see the difference. If I go to my closet to choose between a red or blue shirt a God knew from the creation of time I would choose the red shirt, did I really have a choice?


----------



## Artfuldodger

The reason I believe in free will instead of OSAS is because of the two Great New Testament commandments. 
God would not give me commands without the ability to do or not do them. He can help me do them, Satan can hinder me from doing them, but in the end I'm the one who must do them. 
I don't consider someone assisting me as taking away my free will.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> The reason I believe in free will instead of OSAS is because of the two Great New Testament commandments.
> God would not give me commands without the ability to do or not do them. He can help me do them, Satan can hinder me from doing them, but in the end I'm the one who must do them.
> I don't consider someone assisting me as taking away my free will.



Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

 Art, you're going to have to submit and take the yoke, sure you can run and kick and cause all kinds of a fuss, probably even to the point that the master gives up on you...but once you submit and are yoked up to the  Lord, how do you take yourself out of it?


----------



## Artfuldodger

So our freedom from sin gives us freedom. 
So much freedom that we are no longer a bond servant to Christ.


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> Do you believe that a soft answer ALWAYS turns away wrath (Proverbs 15:1) and that beds literally "swim" (Psalm 6:6).


Of course I believe it. I believe it out of a force of evidence. I have experienced the swimming bed and the turning away of wrath. Please hear me, if the Bible told me that Jonah swallowed the whale, then I would believe that Jonah swallowed the whale. I may not fully understand the metaphysics, but I would have to believe it, before I could fully understand it.


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> So our freedom from sin gives us freedom.
> So much freedom that we are no longer a bond servant to Christ.



If you are a slave to sin, you can not be a slave to Christ.
Your freedom from sin allows you to be a slave to Christ.
You can't serve to masters.
In the yoke, one is the lead (even in a 6-horse hitch there is always a lead horse).

I've always admired the wheel-horse; he's the big dumb guy at the back whose main job is stopping and backing.  Too bad God decided I would be a little skinny guy.


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> Of course I believe it. I believe it out of a force of evidence. I have experienced the swimming bed and the turning away of wrath. Please hear me, if the Bible told me that Jonah swallowed the whale, then I would believe that Jonah swallowed the whale. I may not fully understand the metaphysics, but I would have to believe it, before I could fully understand it.



Then you also believe there are "specks" and "beams" in people's eyes... and that the entire earth's surface could not contain all the books telling of Jesus' miracles?  

Come now... you have seen a bed swimming in tears? before?


----------



## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
> 
> Art, you're going to have to submit and take the yoke, sure you can run and kick and cause all kinds of a fuss, probably even to the point that the master gives up on you...but once you submit and are yoked up to the  Lord, how do you take yourself out of it?



The same issue I'm discussing with Gem right now applies in this situation.  If you look at Strong's concordance, you will notice the word "yoke" DOES mean a physical yoke that is put on draught cattle.  However, you will also see an additional definition cited also... "metaphorically, used to denote any burden or bondage" - as that of slavery or troublesome laws imposed on a person.

I'm sure you'll agree that the meaning of Matthew 12:30 is the metaphorical usage.  His "yoke" was different from the Law of Moses as well as the "yoke" imposed upon people by leaders like "scribes and Pharisees".  Regarding "how" one can "unyoke himself", Matthew 10:6 helps provide an answer.  In sending out His apostles in what many refer to as the "Limited Commission", He sent them to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel".  These were people who were born into the family of God (Jews)... but people who had wandered away.  The same imagery was used in Isaiah 53:6 - a Messianic prophecy.  There we read, "All we like sheep have gone astray".  Thus, it was the sheep's choice which lead to his "unyoking" from salvation.

If you'll read Revelation 2-3, you see at least 3 different congregations (Ephesus, Sardis, Laodicea) who were on the verge of "being unyoked" by God.  The reason for it was their steady desire to disobey the Lord.


----------



## Artfuldodger

You don't really believe all those verses pertaining to Ephesus, Sardis, Laodicea were directed at Christians do you? Sure they were Church members but they were never saved.

Or were they?


----------



## barryl

Artfuldodger said:


> How you receive salvation or if man has any part of salvation such as "believing" or "faith" is related to the question of losing said salvation.
> If you believe you have no input into your salvation then of course you have no output to your salvation.


Have you ever lost your salvation? If you can be saved any other way than by believing 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV AV, you are not in the "Body of Christ." The out n' out problem is a "trust" problem.


----------



## barryl

Ronnie T said:


> Romans 4 is a great chapter that describes Abraham's Justification.
> Abraham wasn't justified simply because he did what God instructed him to do......  Abraham was righteous because, as he blindly obeyed God's instructions, he had faith in God's will for him.  Whether it was (1)  traveling to a country he didn't even know, or (2) preparing to sacrifice his son.
> Abraham was a man who believed.
> .


Refer to Romans 10:3-4 KJV AV


----------



## Ronnie T

Bama4me said:


> The same issue I'm discussing with Gem right now applies in this situation.  If you look at Strong's concordance, you will notice the word "yoke" DOES mean a physical yoke that is put on draught cattle.  However, you will also see an additional definition cited also... "metaphorically, used to denote any burden or bondage" - as that of slavery or troublesome laws imposed on a person.
> 
> I'm sure you'll agree that the meaning of Matthew 12:30 is the metaphorical usage.  His "yoke" was different from the Law of Moses as well as the "yoke" imposed upon people by leaders like "scribes and Pharisees".  Regarding "how" one can "unyoke himself", Matthew 10:6 helps provide an answer.  In sending out His apostles in what many refer to as the "Limited Commission", He sent them to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel".  These were people who were born into the family of God (Jews)... but people who had wandered away.  The same imagery was used in Isaiah 53:6 - a Messianic prophecy.  There we read, "All we like sheep have gone astray".  Thus, it was the sheep's choice which lead to his "unyoking" from salvation.
> 
> If you'll read Revelation 2-3, you see at least 3 different congregations (Ephesus, Sardis, Laodicea) who were on the verge of "being unyoked" by God.  The reason for it was their steady desire to disobey the Lord.


----------



## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> Have you ever lost your salvation? If you can be saved any other way than by believing 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV AV, you are not in the "Body of Christ." The out n' out problem is a "trust" problem.



Barry, how do you know you ARE saved?
.


----------



## barryl

Bama4me said:


> I'm sure you can find it discussed somewhere in here. If you're complaining because "taking yourself out" is not discussed in the thread, you haven't been listening well.  Any time you talk about one of the points of Calvinism (hereditary depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and perseverance of the saints), the discussion boils down to whether or not man has a role/responsibility in the salvation process.  Those subscribing to one of the points "take men out of the equation."
> 
> Maybe you were looking for some other kind of discussion? If so, maybe you can clarify exactly where you were hoping the discussion would go?


I'll admit that I don't lay on here 24/7, but I sure am interested in "Sound Doctrine." I am a "Whosoever will" man myself. Have you ever lost your salvation?


----------



## barryl

Artfuldodger said:


> You narrow down the Word of God to the point that most of us don't know what chapter & verses pertain to us.
> 
> My answer was in post #853. Wow we're almost to 1,000.


Spiritual, Doctrinal, and Historical. Romans - Philemon. It's amazing how God inspired his word, how he weaves back and forth, even includes double applications of some scriptures. Have you ever lost your salvation?


----------



## barryl

centerpin fan said:


> As I said before, someone who has abandoned God probably has better things to do than debate theology on an internet bulletin board.


Have you? Post #866.


----------



## barryl

Ronnie T said:


> Barry, how do you know you ARE saved?
> .


I trust in the Sinless Blood Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ, thats how!


----------



## barryl

Oh yeah, I hold in my hands the word of God. Gods written guarantee!!  KJV AV


----------



## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> I trust in the Sinless Blood Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ, thats how!



The blood sacrifice of Jesus doesn't save everyone.
Many will be tossed out of the drag net.  How do you know you won't?
.


----------



## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> Oh yeah, I hold in my hands the word of God. Gods written guarantee!!  KJV AV



Holding a Bible in your hand doesn't mean you have salvation.
.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord ...
Many in the Ephesus, Sardis, & Laodicean Churches thought they were saved too.


----------



## M80

Ronnie T said:


> The blood sacrifice of Jesus doesn't save everyone.
> Many will be tossed out of the drag net.  How do you know you won't?
> .



Really


----------



## hobbs27

Bama4me said:


> If you'll read Revelation 2-3, you see at least 3 different congregations (Ephesus, Sardis, Laodicea) who were on the verge of "being unyoked" by God.  The reason for it was their steady desire to disobey the Lord.



 I don't think the letter sent to the churches was a threat to the individual Christians that their salvation could be lost. Do you?


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord ...
> Many in the Ephesus, Sardis, & Laodicean Churches thought they were saved too.



I guess that's what they get for thinking. I know

1st John says these things are written that you may KNOW


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> I'll admit that I don't lay on here 24/7 ...



Next time you're on, take a gander at post 49 here:

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=765871


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Have you? Post #866.



Nope.  I just know people who "trusted in the Sinless Blood Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ" and later completely renounced God and/or Christianity.


----------



## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> Really



Why all the laughy faces when I relate something spoken by Jesus Himself??????????????????
I just think that's really weird beyond logic that you'd do that.
.


----------



## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> Really



How about you?

How do you know you're saved?
.


----------



## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> I don't think the letter sent to the churches was a threat to the individual Christians that their salvation could be lost. Do you?



No question about it!!
Go read them carefully.  Don't read them trying to substantiate your beliefs..... Just read them and hear what Jesus is saying to those people.
.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> No question about it!!
> Go read them carefully.  Don't read them trying to substantiate your beliefs..... Just read them and hear what Jesus is saying to those people.
> .



Those Church's WERE the individual people.


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> Nope.  I just know people who "trusted in the Sinless Blood Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ" and later completely renounced God and/or Christianity.



He might could find some former believers on this thread.
But come to think of it, they were probably never saved to begin with. God played a dirty trick on them. Making them believe they were saved in a moment only to yank it from them later.

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=759759


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> He might could find some former believers on this thread.
> But come to think of it, they were probably never saved to begin with. God played a dirty trick on them. Making them believe they were saved in a moment only to yank it from them later.
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=759759




For example:



ambush80 said:


> Every...EVERY atheist, that I know personally anyway, was a Christian.


----------



## Bama4me

Ronnie T said:


> Holding a Bible in your hand doesn't mean you have salvation.
> .



Nor does citing the "AV" part to the KJV citation. 

Barry... yes, I've lost my salvation in times past.  Earlier in my life after my conversion, I stopped living for Christ and began living for myself.  I thank God that my life didn't end during that time period.  So, yes... I've lost my salvation.


----------



## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> I don't think the letter sent to the churches was a threat to the individual Christians that their salvation could be lost. Do you?



What is the church?  Is it not the people?  According to the Lord, He would (1) remove their lampstand from its place, (2) come like a thief, and (3) spit them out of His mouth.

All of the ideas above related to Christ's view of their actions and threated action.  How could the Lord threaten judgment upon these congregations without threatening the people who made up the congregations?


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> I guess that's what they get for thinking. I know
> 
> 1st John says these things are written that you may KNOW



Had they been DOING the things found written in 1 John, they wouldn't have been threatened by the judgment of Christ.


----------



## hobbs27

Bama4me said:


> What is the church?  Is it not the people?  According to the Lord, He would (1) remove their lampstand from its place, (2) come like a thief, and (3) spit them out of His mouth.
> 
> All of the ideas above related to Christ's view of their actions and threated action.  How could the Lord threaten judgment upon these congregations without threatening the people who made up the congregations?



I will demonstrate this later tonight. No where does Jesus say he will take away the salvation to any individual that had received it, and the letters are addressed to the Pastor/ Angel of the Church....for a reason!


----------



## M80

Ronnie T said:


> Why all the laughy faces when I relate something spoken by Jesus Himself??????????????????
> I just think that's really weird beyond logic that you'd do that.
> .



I can't believe you would be little the blood of Jesus and say it isn't sufficient to save all


----------



## M80

Ronnie T said:


> How about you?
> 
> How do you know you're saved?
> .



For one I believe, second I love the brethren. There are more according to the bible, but mostly cause I cant loose it...........and round and round and round and round we go


----------



## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> ...........and round and round and round and round we go



Yeah, but can we top the "elect" thread?

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=636168&page=22


----------



## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> I will demonstrate this later tonight. No where does Jesus say he will take away the salvation to any individual that had received it, and the letters are addressed to the Pastor/ Angel of the Church....for a reason!



The Greek word "aggelos" literally means "messenger".  It is translated in the NT as "angel" and "messenger".  Using either rendering (it doesn't matter for our purpose), the messenger was to relay this message to the congregation (made up of individual members).  The Greek word is not translated as "pastor".

As I've cited several times before in this thread, James 5:19-20 states it.  There's no other way to interpret "wanders from the truth" any other way than "they were in the truth" at an earlier time.  There's no way to understand "save his soul from death" any differently unless you're talking about the physical ability a person will have to intentionally avoid death in this life.


----------



## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> I can't believe you would be little the blood of Jesus and say it isn't sufficient to save all



I didn't say that.  Didn't even imply that.
But you distorted what I did say.  Jesus' blood is sufficient to save all that live in Him.
But many have trampled the blood of Jesus.
.


----------



## Ronnie T

Matt 13:47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind; 48 and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away. 49 So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

*How can a person know that they are saved today?  For a fact!  No guessing!  Cause it is possible for a person to know.
.


----------



## hobbs27

Bama4me said:


> The Greek word "aggelos" literally means "messenger".  It is translated in the NT as "angel" and "messenger".  Using either rendering (it doesn't matter for our purpose), the messenger was to relay this message to the congregation (made up of individual members).  The Greek word is not translated as "pastor".
> 
> .


 I believe in this case Angel is Pastor. Here's a copy and paste job of why from: http://www.kingdombaptist.org/why-p...ls-of-the-churches-in-the-book-of-revelation/


In Revelation 1:20, the Holy Ghost plainly teaches us that the “candlesticks” are symbolic of seven, literal churches. The “stars” are symbolic of the “angels” of these churches. Each church has only one “angel” to whom each letter is addressed. It is therefore unreasonable to ask what the “angel” symbolizes; the “angel” is the literal interpretation of the symbol! The neglect of this basic, common-sense principle has caused much interpretive confusion in the Book of Revelation. For example, in Revelation 17:9, we are told by the Holy Ghost that the seven “heads” are seven “mountains.” “Mountains,” therefore, cannot be anything other than literal “mountains” (which, in English, can also mean large hills). “Mountain” is the interpretation of the “head” symbol. There are other examples such as this in the Book of Revelation. The main point at hand is that any interpretation of the “stars” in Revelation 1:20 that makes them anything other than literal “angels” is a reckless interpretation. It would make a new mystery out of something the Holy Ghost means as an interpretation of a mystery. Therefore, we have no choice but to interpret the “angels” of the churches as literal angels.

Yet, before we can conclude the interpretive process, we must examine the full meanings and usages of the word “angel.” It is at this point that we find that the word “angel” can apply to any messenger of God, whether it is a celestial being, or a human being. And when we examine the context and content of the seven letters in Revelation 2 and 3, we are forced to conclude that these literal “angels” are earthly and human. They can die and be thrown into prison at the hands of men (Revelation 2:10). They are also responsible and accountable to Jesus Christ for their individual churches. This responsibility implies a certain level of authority. This authority, although it should not be abused, must be exercised with diligence (Romans 12:8). When all of these facts are weighed, we are compelled to conclude that the traditional, common interpretation (i.e. that these “angels” are primary or head pastors) is indeed the correct one.


----------



## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> *How can a person know that they are saved today?  For a fact!  No guessing!  Cause it is possible for a person to know.
> .



 I commune with my Lord, My prayers are answered, but mostly because I love the brethren! Even when I have never met a brother face to face and even when we have differences in beliefs, it is known and felt in my heart when I speak of my Lord and they know the same love from the same Lord. It is a love that is even greater the grace itself. John could not even find a word to define it and was left by describing it as: Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not...I know this love from The Father! 

David didnt have what we have today, but he said it best, and if you can truly say this, you probably know the Lord:

23 The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.

2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.

Also I know I am saved because He has chastised me be-times, and He would not have done this to a ..person without a father!


----------



## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> I believe in this case Angel is Pastor. Here's a copy and paste job of why from: http://www.kingdombaptist.org/why-p...ls-of-the-churches-in-the-book-of-revelation/
> 
> 
> In Revelation 1:20, the Holy Ghost plainly teaches us that the “candlesticks” are symbolic of seven, literal churches. The “stars” are symbolic of the “angels” of these churches. Each church has only one “angel” to whom each letter is addressed. It is therefore unreasonable to ask what the “angel” symbolizes; the “angel” is the literal interpretation of the symbol! The neglect of this basic, common-sense principle has caused much interpretive confusion in the Book of Revelation. For example, in Revelation 17:9, we are told by the Holy Ghost that the seven “heads” are seven “mountains.” “Mountains,” therefore, cannot be anything other than literal “mountains” (which, in English, can also mean large hills). “Mountain” is the interpretation of the “head” symbol. There are other examples such as this in the Book of Revelation. The main point at hand is that any interpretation of the “stars” in Revelation 1:20 that makes them anything other than literal “angels” is a reckless interpretation. It would make a new mystery out of something the Holy Ghost means as an interpretation of a mystery. Therefore, we have no choice but to interpret the “angels” of the churches as literal angels.
> 
> Yet, before we can conclude the interpretive process, we must examine the full meanings and usages of the word “angel.” It is at this point that we find that the word “angel” can apply to any messenger of God, whether it is a celestial being, or a human being. And when we examine the context and content of the seven letters in Revelation 2 and 3, we are forced to conclude that these literal “angels” are earthly and human. They can die and be thrown into prison at the hands of men (Revelation 2:10). They are also responsible and accountable to Jesus Christ for their individual churches. This responsibility implies a certain level of authority. This authority, although it should not be abused, must be exercised with diligence (Romans 12:8). When all of these facts are weighed, we are compelled to conclude that the traditional, common interpretation (i.e. that these “angels” are primary or head pastors) is indeed the correct one.



I'm not even going to get into all the flaws with the above method and rationale.
And none of it affects the words Jesus had for each of the churches mentioned.
.


----------



## hobbs27

Bama4me said:


> What is the church?  Is it not the people?  According to the Lord, He would (1) remove their lampstand from its place, (2) come like a thief, and (3) spit them out of His mouth.
> 
> All of the ideas above related to Christ's view of their actions and threated action.  How could the Lord threaten judgment upon these congregations without threatening the people who made up the congregations?



What is the church?  Yes I know, the church is the body of Christ, and we saved folks make up the church, but Christ is speaking about individual literal churches here. The seven churches of that time. Ephesus, Smyrna,Pergamos,Thyatira,Sardis,Philadelphia,Laodicea. If Christ were addressing The Church He could have done it in one letter addressed to The church.

Remove their lampstand..That was to the church in Ephesus...funny thing about that city.it had been moved several times in the past because of the buildup of silt from the river Cayster..the lampstand in Revelations 1:20 we are told blatantly that the lampstands are the churches themselves...so this threat is clearly defined as Jesus will remove the Church from the city if the people dont repent...nothing there about taking away the blood that was applied to the saved folks of the church!

Come like a thief..to the church of Sardis...Sardis had previously been captured twice by surprise probably by night attacks. Jesus warning...The church could likely see a similar attack if they do not wake up. The ones that were worthy..saved.. would walk with Him in white[ love that song!]

spit them out of his mouth..Laodicea had a water supply that came to them from afar via pipe system. They had a neighboring town Hierapolis which had medicinal hot springs. The Laodiceans also had a neighboring town of Colosse which was supplied with cool mountain spring water...You gotta love how Jesus always knows how to explain things so it can be best understood by the person He speaks to.  The warning was the church should be refreshing(cold) as Colosse water or medicinally healing (hot) as Hierapolis. It is necessary the church be this way, so the Lord can add to it. Again no one is threatened to lose their salvation, matter of fact Jesus gives an invitation here at the 20th verse.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


----------



## M80

Ronnie T said:


> Matt 13:47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind; 48 and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away. 49 So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
> 
> *How can a person know that they are saved today?  For a fact!  No guessing!  Cause it is possible for a person to know.
> .



How do you get losing salvation out of this. The scripture plainly says redeemed to to heaven, wicked go to destruction


----------



## hobbs27

Bama4me said:


> As I've cited several times before in this thread, James 5:19-20 states it.  There's no other way to interpret "wanders from the truth" any other way than "they were in the truth" at an earlier time.  There's no way to understand "save his soul from death" any differently unless you're talking about the physical ability a person will have to intentionally avoid death in this life.



Whoa!  lets take a look at this verse...what is it really saying? lets break it down.

19 Brethren,<-saved  

if anyone among you wanders from the truth<- lost sinner

,
 and someone turns him back,<-saved witness 

20 let him know that he who turns <-saved witness 

 a sinner<-lost sinner 

from the error of his way will save a soul[a] from death and cover a multitude of sins.<- lost sinner converted here to saved brother!


----------



## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> Really





Ronnie T said:


> Why all the laughy faces when I relate something spoken by Jesus Himself??????????????????
> I just think that's really weird beyond logic that you'd do that.
> .





Ronnie T said:


> How about you?
> 
> How do you know you're saved?
> .





mwilliams80 said:


> I can't believe you would be little the blood of Jesus and say it isn't sufficient to save all





Ronnie T said:


> I didn't say that.  Didn't even imply that.
> But you distorted what I did say.  Jesus' blood is sufficient to save all that live in Him.
> But many have trampled the blood of Jesus.
> .





Ronnie T said:


> Matt 13:47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind; 48 and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away. 49 So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
> 
> *How can a person know that they are saved today?  For a fact!  No guessing!  Cause it is possible for a person to know.
> .





mwilliams80 said:


> How do you get losing salvation out of this. The scripture plainly says redeemed to to heaven, wicked go to destruction



I know it's stupid for me to stay in this conversation, but I'm going to take one more stab at it.......

The question from me that began this particular discussion today was:  "How do you know that you're saved?"

It had nothing to do with you losing your salvation, only with how you come to terms with your salvation today.
That's all.  Why do you keep taking it some place else?
.


----------



## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> *How can a person know that they are saved today?  For a fact!  No guessing!  Cause it is possible for a person to know.
> .





hobbs27 said:


> I commune with my Lord, My prayers are answered, but mostly because I love the brethren! Even when I have never met a brother face to face and even when we have differences in beliefs, it is known and felt in my heart when I speak of my Lord and they know the same love from the same Lord. It is a love that is even greater the grace itself. John could not even find a word to define it and was left by describing it as: Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not...I know this love from The Father!
> 
> David didnt have what we have today, but he said it best, and if you can truly say this, you probably know the Lord:
> 
> 23 The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.
> 
> 2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
> 
> 3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
> 
> 4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
> 
> 5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
> 
> 6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.
> 
> Also I know I am saved because He has chastised me be-times, and He would not have done this to a ..person without a father!



Brother brother, I so agree with you.  I'm saved because He's my Lord.  He's here.  What has happened to me could never have happened if it weren't so.  I've failed Him over and over, and He's still blessing me and growing me and keeping my head above the water.  
I'm glad he's done the same for you, and that you recognized it.
.


----------



## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> Matt 13:47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind; 48 and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away. 49 So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
> 
> *How can a person know that they are saved today?  For a fact!  No guessing!  Cause it is possible for a person to know.
> .





mwilliams80 said:


> How do you get losing salvation out of this. The scripture plainly says redeemed to to heaven, wicked go to destruction



I wasn't talking about "losing" salvation.  I was talking about "thinking" you were saved, but not being saved.

In other words, how do you know, today, that you are a keeper?  A 14 incher.


----------



## M80

mwilliams80 said:


> For one I believe, second I love the brethren. There are more according to the bible, but mostly cause I cant loose





Ronnie T said:


> I didn't say that.  Didn't even imply that.
> But you distorted what I did say.  Jesus' blood is sufficient to save all that live in Him.
> But many have trampled the blood of Jesus.
> .





Ronnie T said:


> I wasn't talking about "losing" salvation.  I was talking about "thinking" you were saved, but not being saved.
> 
> In other words, how do you know, today, that you are a keeper?  A 14 incher.



Sorry brother I misunderstood you, kinda got my guard up. Look above where I posted.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Whoa!  lets take a look at this verse...what is it really saying? lets break it down.
> 
> 19 Brethren,<-saved
> 
> if anyone among you wanders from the truth<- lost sinner
> 
> ,
> and someone turns him back,<-saved witness
> 
> 20 let him know that he who turns <-saved witness
> 
> a sinner<-lost sinner
> 
> from the error of his way will save a soul[a] from death and cover a multitude of sins.<- lost sinner converted here to saved brother!



If a saved brother wanders from the truth he becomes a lost sinner, again.


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> Yeah, but can we top the "elect" thread?
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=636168&page=22



I think we should honor that thread and stop this one at 1075.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> If a saved brother wanders from the truth he becomes a lost sinner, again.


Listen to what you are saying. If he is lost, he was never saved but only potentially saved. If Christ did not keep him saved, then the man is responsible for for his being kept. You make man the deciding factor in salvation and you make the finished work of Christ to be of no effect.

Again, for you guys that keep promoting your works salvation, "Salvation is of the Lord".


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> If a saved brother wanders from the truth he becomes a lost sinner, again.



Its not a saved brother that is wondering from the truth. Its a message to the brethren (saved) if there is any among you that is wondering from the truth (lost sinner) it is your responsibility to show them there evil ways that they may repent and be saved. I was a lost sinner among the brethren  the night I was saved.


----------



## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> I believe in this case Angel is Pastor. Here's a copy and paste job of why from: http://www.kingdombaptist.org/why-p...ls-of-the-churches-in-the-book-of-revelation/
> 
> 
> In Revelation 1:20, the Holy Ghost plainly teaches us that the “candlesticks” are symbolic of seven, literal churches. The “stars” are symbolic of the “angels” of these churches. Each church has only one “angel” to whom each letter is addressed. It is therefore unreasonable to ask what the “angel” symbolizes; the “angel” is the literal interpretation of the symbol! The neglect of this basic, common-sense principle has caused much interpretive confusion in the Book of Revelation. For example, in Revelation 17:9, we are told by the Holy Ghost that the seven “heads” are seven “mountains.” “Mountains,” therefore, cannot be anything other than literal “mountains” (which, in English, can also mean large hills). “Mountain” is the interpretation of the “head” symbol. There are other examples such as this in the Book of Revelation. The main point at hand is that any interpretation of the “stars” in Revelation 1:20 that makes them anything other than literal “angels” is a reckless interpretation. It would make a new mystery out of something the Holy Ghost means as an interpretation of a mystery. Therefore, we have no choice but to interpret the “angels” of the churches as literal angels.
> 
> Yet, before we can conclude the interpretive process, we must examine the full meanings and usages of the word “angel.” It is at this point that we find that the word “angel” can apply to any messenger of God, whether it is a celestial being, or a human being. And when we examine the context and content of the seven letters in Revelation 2 and 3, we are forced to conclude that these literal “angels” are earthly and human. They can die and be thrown into prison at the hands of men (Revelation 2:10). They are also responsible and accountable to Jesus Christ for their individual churches. This responsibility implies a certain level of authority. This authority, although it should not be abused, must be exercised with diligence (Romans 12:8). When all of these facts are weighed, we are compelled to conclude that the traditional, common interpretation (i.e. that these “angels” are primary or head pastors) is indeed the correct one.



With all due respect, I find several ideas difficult to agree with in this explanation.  First, there is a stretch made in attempting to connect "messenger" to "pastor".  To say there's evidence that there were single pastors over a church in the New Testament is simply incorrect - and the Greek language does NOT show James being the pastor of the Jerusalem church.  IMO, the word "messenger" was referencing a human messenger - but to go further and make a case for pastors, that's going too far.

Second, it's not the messenger who was going to be thrown into prison in 2:10... it was the people who'd hear the message.  The text says "some of you"... and only one messenger was addressed beginning the section.

Third, to say these messengers were "responsible for their congregations" is blind assumption - you cannot find ANY textual evidence in the chapters that this is true.

However, even if what you're saying WAS true, you're still left with the fact that Jesus was going to be judging these brethren in terms of (1) removing his lamp stand, (2) Jesus coming like a thief, and (3) Jesus spitting him out of his mouth.  That's language suggesting losing one's salvation.


----------



## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> Whoa!  lets take a look at this verse...what is it really saying? lets break it down.
> 
> 19 Brethren,<-saved
> 
> if anyone among you wanders from the truth<- lost sinner
> 
> ,
> and someone turns him back,<-saved witness
> 
> 20 let him know that he who turns <-saved witness
> 
> a sinner<-lost sinner
> 
> from the error of his way will save a soul[a] from death and cover a multitude of sins.<- lost sinner converted here to saved brother!



Are you kidding me?  The people who were wandering were "among them"... they had been "in the truth."  Look up the phrase "among you" in the NT and you will find that phrase references people who were part of the group that was being addressed.  "Brethren" are church members... the wanderers were church members who'd left the truth and were headed for spiritual death unless they could be restored.  Seriously, I can understand how you can look at this passage with an honest examination and come up with "they were a lost (alien) sinner.


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> You make man the deciding factor in salvation and you make the finished work of Christ to be of no effect".



And you make man of no effect whatsoever... he's just a pawn in the game... a robot who has NO choice in life... his fate has already been decided and if somehow or another, a saved person doesn't want to continue in the faith, the God you portray makes him stay saved.  Again, for those of you who claim that salvation has nothing to do with the actions if man, judgment day is going to be a rough day... because Jesus' separation of the sheep/goats in Matthew 25 involved actions of individual people.  We are saved by grace through faith - man HAS something to do.


----------



## gemcgrew

Oh good grief. I take that you believe the goats were sheep at one time or another. Ridiculous. 

The goats were among the sheep, but they were never sheep.


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> a robot who has NO choice in life...


Did you choose to be created?


----------



## Ronnie T

*Ephesus*

Chap 2:1  “To the angel of the church in Ephesus write:

The One who holds the seven stars in His right hand, the One who walks among the seven golden lampstands, says this:

2 ‘I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false; 3 and you have perseverance and have endured for My name’s sake, and have not grown weary. 
(Is there any doubt that Jesus was addressing Christians in verse 2 and 3?) 
4 But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent. 6 Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’


----------



## Ronnie T

*Smyrna*

Chap 2:8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write:

The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:

9 ‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. 
Any doubt that Jesus is addressing Christians?"

He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.’


----------



## Ronnie T

*Philadelphia*

Rev 3:7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:

He who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says this:

8 ‘I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 9 Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you. 10 Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name. 13 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’


----------



## Ronnie T

Those letters; all of the letters a very clearly written to the people of those churches.

Come on guys.
.


----------



## hobbs27

Bama4me said:


> However, even if what you're saying WAS true, you're still left with the fact that Jesus was going to be judging these brethren in terms of (1) removing his lamp stand, (2) Jesus coming like a thief, and (3) Jesus spitting him out of his mouth.  That's language suggesting losing one's salvation.



Post #926 answers those concerns.


----------



## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> Those letters; all of the letters a very clearly written to the people of those churches.
> 
> Come on guys.
> .



 No, they are very clearly written to the angels of the church/ be it Pastor, or messenger, or literal angel. 

 The threats to those churches were clearly to the literal church as an organization and place, not to the individuals.

They are described in one of my bibles as 

The loveless church Ephesus
The persecuted church Smyrna
The compromising church Pergamos
The corrupt church Thyatira
The dead church Sardis
The faithful church Philadelphia
The lukewarm church Laodecia

 One advantage I have from experience is the travels Ive made over the past few years in search of a home church, Ive been in every one of these churchs...and I know I'll part beliefs here with many but there is a feeling you get when you step on holy ground. There's nothing for a Christian in a loveless or dead church. There's nothing for the lost in a compromising, corrupt, or lukewarm church--this is equal to the world from where they come--.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I still don't understand how a group of people can be loveless, corrupt, dead, or lukewarm without at least some individuals in that group being  loveless, corrupt, dead, or lukewarm. Even if it's just one individual.
I would think that it was more than one person to warrant these letters.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Did you choose to be created?



How do you look at all the judging that will be done by God & Jesus? What is the purpose to judge someone if that person  had no control over his actions he is being judged for?


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> How do you look at all the judging that will be done by God & Jesus? What is the purpose to judge someone if that person  had no control over his actions he is being judged for?


Why be judged in the first place? Who determined that there be a judgement? How is a person's control even relevant?


----------



## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> No, they are very clearly written to the angels of the church/ be it Pastor, or messenger, or literal angel.
> 
> The threats to those churches were clearly to the literal church as an organization and place, not to the individuals.
> 
> They are described in one of my bibles as
> 
> The loveless church Ephesus
> The persecuted church Smyrna
> The compromising church Pergamos
> The corrupt church Thyatira
> The dead church Sardis
> The faithful church Philadelphia
> The lukewarm church Laodecia
> 
> One advantage I have from experience is the travels Ive made over the past few years in search of a home church, Ive been in every one of these churchs...and I know I'll part beliefs here with many but there is a feeling you get when you step on holy ground. There's nothing for a Christian in a loveless or dead church. There's nothing for the lost in a compromising, corrupt, or lukewarm church--this is equal to the world from where they come--.



Oh come on now.

And Romans was written to the church in Rome, not us.
And the book of Luke was written to Theophilus.

And it was clearly written about the individuals of the church, because Jesus spoke of the positive and negative within each church.
.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Why be judged in the first place? Who determined that there be a judgement? How is a person's control even relevant?



So you don't believe Christians will be judged?
2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 

God determined it speaking through Paul.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> Why be judged in the first place? Who determined that there be a judgement? How is a person's control even relevant?



You'll see.


----------



## centerpin fan

The "elect" thread is within range.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> So you don't believe Christians will be judged?
> 2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
> 
> God determined it speaking through Paul.





Ronnie T said:


> You'll see.



Of course there is a judgement. This is clearly stated in the Bible. In your haste, you missed my point entirely.

1. God determined for there to be a judgement.
2. There is a judgement.
3. Man was not consulted.
4. Free-will, free-choice and man's control are not relevant.
5. God is sovereign.
6. Man is not free.


----------



## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> Oh come on now.
> 
> And Romans was written to the church in Rome, not us.
> And the book of Luke was written to Theophilus.
> 
> And it was clearly written about the individuals of the church, because Jesus spoke of the positive and negative within each church.
> .



When a church starts to fall away, who in that church holds the greatest responsibility to God at bringing it back? The elders, or the laymen?


----------



## gordon 2

mwilliams80 said:


> How do you get losing salvation out of this. The scripture plainly says redeemed to to heaven, wicked go to destruction





The sceptre of the wicked shall not rest

  upon the inheritance of the just;

lest the just themselves stretch out their hands

  and turn to wickedness

Psalm 124 ( 125)

Could this be a simple acid test? Or is it of a retired algorithm? (Let us look before us, what have we inherited from the word and into our lives?)


----------



## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> When a church starts to fall away, who in that church holds the greatest responsibility to God at bringing it back? The elders, or the laymen?



The greatest responsibility always lies with the individual.  I don't believe there's a book in the Bible that has been written to the leaders of a particular church.  Ultimately, it becomes a very individual relationship.

In all the troubles at the church in Corinth, I can't remember Paul ever holding church leaders responsible for the laxness of individual Christians.

But I would suspect the lukewarmness was affecting church leaders as well.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I do hope everyone is aware that our beliefs affect our interpretation of the verses and stories in the Bible. It should be the other way around. 
I'm just as guilty and this is just an observation. I can put myself in the mindset of an "election" believer and see why they interprete a verse or story the way they do.
If you don't believe a Christian can ever lose his salvation then it doesn't matter how many verses to Churches about falling away there are, you aren't going to believe it means Christians.
As for me, it doesn't matter how many verses there are about "predestination," I'm not going to believe it means I don't have free will.

It's an enigma because we can all find verses that equally show opposite beliefs as we have all demonstrated in this thread.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Of course there is a judgement. This is clearly stated in the Bible. In your haste, you missed my point entirely.
> 
> 1. God determined for there to be a judgement.
> 2. There is a judgement.
> 3. Man was not consulted.
> 4. Free-will, free-choice and man's control are not relevant.
> 5. God is sovereign.
> 6. Man is not free.



The Bible  says we were created to praise God for creating us to praise Him.

Where does it say we as individuals can't go against our created purpose? 
There was some event early in time where man went terribly wrong. This event went against this man's created purpose. In a way he stopped praising God.


----------



## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> I do hope everyone is aware that our beliefs affect our interpretation of the verses and stories in the Bible. It should be the other way around.
> I'm just as guilty and this is just an observation. I can put myself in the mindset of an "election" believer and see why they interprete a verse or story the way they do.
> If you don't believe a Christian can ever lose his salvation then it doesn't matter how many verses to Churches about falling away there are, you aren't going to believe it means Christians.
> As for me, it doesn't matter how many verses there are about "predestination," I'm not going to believe it means I don't have free will.
> 
> It's an enigma because we can all find verses that equally show opposite beliefs as we have all demonstrated in this thread.



I think this thread has proven your first point... how you view "man's involvement" (or non-involvement) in the salvation process is going to affect how one reads God's word.

An additional idea that can be noticed in this thread is that there are sometimes passages which seemingly conflict with one another found in Scripture.  Usually, the answer lies in context - the setting/purpose for the passage that is being studied.  One of the best things a person can do in studying any biblical subject is to look at EVERYTHING the word says about the subject... and then begin drawing conclusions from there.


----------



## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> The Bible  says we were created to praise God for creating us to praise Him.
> 
> Where does it say we as individuals can't go against our created purpose?
> There was some event early in time where man went terribly wrong. This event went against this man's created purpose. In a way he stopped praising God.



Under Gem's view of "sovereignty", man is unable to do anything based on his own free will.  Funny thing is that this same sovereign God allows Satan to exercise choice in who he tempts.  Jesus said Satan had requested a chance to tempt Peter (Luke 22:31)... and Jesus had prayed for Peter "that his faith might not fail" (Luke 22:32).  In 1 Corinthians 10:13, Satan is allowed to tempt people... but not beyond what they are able to endure.  All signs say God limits Satan's ability to tempt people... but he does allow him to tempt (aka - "do something").


----------



## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> The greatest responsibility always lies with the individual.  I don't believe there's a book in the Bible that has been written to the leaders of a particular church...


I was thinking of this verse in particular and theres a few more, I think one in Luke.

James 3:1 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a [a]stricter judgment.

another: Galations 1:6-9 6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you [a]by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel *contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be [c]accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel [d]contrary to what you received, he is to be [e]accursed!





Ronnie T said:



			Ultimately, it becomes a very individual relationship..
		
Click to expand...


The individual relationship is with our Lord! Our relationship to the mother church is congregational.*


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> The Bible  says we were created to praise God for creating us to praise Him.
> 
> Where does it say we as individuals can't go against our created purpose?
> There was some event early in time where man went terribly wrong. This event went against this man's created purpose. In a way he stopped praising God.



The man I understand you to refer to had access to the Tree of Life.  That makes a difference.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> The Bible  says we were created to praise God for creating us to praise Him.


Show me.


Artfuldodger said:


> Where does it say we as individuals can't go against our created purpose?


Daniel 4:35 for starters.


Artfuldodger said:


> There was some event early in time where man went terribly wrong. This event went against this man's created purpose. In a way he stopped praising God.


You now have my full attention. What event? Who or what orchestrated said event? Was the event, or the orchestrator of the event, more powerful than God?


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> Under Gem's view of "sovereignty", man is unable to do anything based on his own free will.  Funny thing is that this same sovereign God allows Satan to exercise choice in who he tempts.  Jesus said Satan had requested a chance to tempt Peter (Luke 22:31)... and Jesus had prayed for Peter "that his faith might not fail" (Luke 22:32).  In 1 Corinthians 10:13, Satan is allowed to tempt people... but not beyond what they are able to endure.  All signs say God limits Satan's ability to tempt people... but he does allow him to tempt (aka - "do something").


Do I understand you correctly? Satan has free-choice, gets permission, is allowed and then tempts. Is this your argument against God's sovereignty?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Bama4me said:


> I think this thread has proven your first point... how you view "man's involvement" (or non-involvement) in the salvation process is going to affect how one reads God's word.
> 
> An additional idea that can be noticed in this thread is that there are sometimes passages which seemingly conflict with one another found in Scripture.  Usually, the answer lies in context - the setting/purpose for the passage that is being studied.  One of the best things a person can do in studying any biblical subject is to look at EVERYTHING the word says about the subject... and then begin drawing conclusions from there.



I agree one would have to read the whole Bible and see what the overall feel, meaning, persuasion, and truth of a subject is.
But even then we are biased from our indoctrination. I wish I had never heard of God except from someone giving me the ability to personally interpret the early scriptures.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Show me.
> 
> Daniel 4:35 for starters.
> 
> You now have my full attention. What event? Who or what orchestrated said event? Was the event, or the orchestrator of the event, more powerful than God?



I can't find a single verse that says we were created to praise or worship God. I stand corrected.

Daniel 4:35 All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?"
(I can't deny that either, Amen for the power of God)

The event was as you know when Adam ate from the "Tree of Knowledge" but  I would assume you've got a verse to show he didn't have a choice.
God had an original plan and Man changed it. God had to go to plan B.

Gem, I agree and I've said it before. Your beliefs are way easier to understand and I wish I believed them. I can only pray that by not believing in predestination, it doesn't null my salvation.
I'm just glad as Daniel 4:35 tells me that God didn't make me a killer homosexual.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Before I post this I want to note it pertains to homosexual Christians. Please, I don't want to discuss homosexuals. I wished the teacher would have used a different sin but he chose homosexuality so I'm stuck with it.
Anyhow it is related to being saved, the Kingdom of God, and not being able to take your self out:

I'm sorry my answer was misleading -- I did not mean to imply that one could be saved without inheriting the kingdom of God. Rather, I was using the terms "saved" and "inherit the kingdom of God" synonymously, but I did not make this explicit. I suspect this is the statement that caused the trouble:

"Now, 1 Corinthians 6:9 does say that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God, but it does not mean that homosexual people can't be saved, or even that practicing homosexuals can't be saved."

Perhaps it would have been better to state it this way:

"Now, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 does say that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God, but it does not mean that homosexual people will not inheret the kingdom of God, or even that practicing homosexuals can't inherit the kingdom of God."

Paul's point was that the Corinthians were behaving like unsaved people: they were doing the very things that the unbelievers did, including practicing homosexuality. However, the Corinthians were saved because they were in Christ: "Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God" (1 Cor. 6:11). Because of their new identities in Christ, they were no longer counted as homosexuals (or as any other types of sinners) even though they continued to do the same things they did before they were saved. Paul exhorted the Corinthians to cease from sin on the basis that it was both incompatible with their new identities and displeasing to their Lord. Since God is going to condemn people to he!! for these sins, Christians ought to take their own sins more seriously. Unbelieving homosexuals are unsaved; believing homosexuals are saved.

http://thirdmill.org/answers/answer.asp/file/40348


----------



## Artfuldodger

From the post above would you say that Christians can't sin, their sins don't count, they can't be condemned for sins, their yoke is removed, and/or they are sanctified thus their sins are washed.
(quote)Since God is going to condemn people to he!! for these sins, Christians ought to take their own sins more seriously. Unbelieving homosexuals are unsaved; believing homosexuals are saved.(end quote)
This is the confusing part about salvation to me. 

What I'm leading to is if REDEMPTION a part of SALVATION?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Side note:
1 Corinthians 6:9 

Does this verse just address the preacher of the Church in Corinth?
Does it affect the Church and not individuals?
If so then just disregard my last few posts.


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> I can't find a single verse that says we were created to praise or worship God. I stand corrected.
> 
> Daniel 4:35 All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?"
> (I can't deny that either, Amen for the power of God)
> 
> The event was as you know when Adam ate from the "Tree of Knowledge" but  I would assume you've got a verse to show he didn't have a choice.
> God had an original plan and Man changed it. God had to go to plan B.
> 
> Gem, I agree and I've said it before. Your beliefs are way easier to understand and I wish I believed them. I can only pray that by not believing in predestination, it doesn't null my salvation.
> I'm just glad as Daniel 4:35 tells me that God didn't make me a killer homosexual.



I'm glad you don't believe them!
You've already allowed the scriptures to prove themselves to you!


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> Do I understand you correctly? Satan has free-choice, gets permission, is allowed and then tempts. Is this your argument against God's sovereignty?



You claim "sovereignty" doesn't allow choice to be made by individuals.  Evidently, that doesn't include Satan... or else that's a different "sovereignty".

Problem here is that define "sovereignty" in a way where human beings cannot exercise freedom of choice.  Yet, that's an assumption you make about "sovereignty" that doesn't agree with the bible.  The fact God allows Satan to exercise "choice" makes your argument void.


----------



## Ronnie T

Bama4me said:


> You claim "sovereignty" doesn't allow choice to be made by individuals.  Evidently, that doesn't include Satan... or else that's a different "sovereignty".
> 
> Problem here is that define "sovereignty" in a way where human beings cannot exercise freedom of choice.  Yet, that's an assumption you make about "sovereignty" that doesn't agree with the bible.  The fact God allows Satan to exercise "choice" makes your argument void.



I've always felt the same as you concerning his definition of sovereignty.  
God, in His sovereignty, demands that gemcgrew and myself make choices in life.  God forces us into a position, through the use of Satan.

God required Paul to 'run the race', and God expect(but does not force) me and gemcgrew to run the race.

But he don't buy it.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> I've always felt the same as you concerning his definition of sovereignty.
> God, in His sovereignty, demands that gemcgrew and myself make choices in life.  God forces us into a position, through the use of Satan.
> 
> God required Paul to 'run the race', and God expect(but does not force) me and gemcgrew to run the race.
> 
> But he don't buy it.


I have no disagreement with what you said here, other than God does not force that which he completely controls. I have never said that we do not make choices. Only that our choices are not free of God but rather determined by him.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Bama4me said:


> You claim "sovereignty" doesn't allow choice to be made by individuals.  Evidently, that doesn't include Satan... or else that's a different "sovereignty".
> 
> Problem here is that define "sovereignty" in a way where human beings cannot exercise freedom of choice.  Yet, that's an assumption you make about "sovereignty" that doesn't agree with the bible.  The fact God allows Satan to exercise "choice" makes your argument void.



I think what Gem was alluding to is you said Satan using his free will gets permission form God.
If he had free will, why did he need permission from God?

I agree free will under a sovereign God is a little more complicated. I still believe in free will but it does get complicated. I can accept that.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Artfuldodger said:


> From the post above would you say that Christians can't sin, their sins don't count, they can't be condemned for sins, their yoke is removed, and/or they are sanctified thus their sins are washed.
> (quote)Since God is going to condemn people to he!! for these sins, Christians ought to take their own sins more seriously. Unbelieving homosexuals are unsaved; believing homosexuals are saved.(end quote)
> This is the confusing part about salvation to me.
> 
> What I'm leading to is if REDEMPTION a part of SALVATION?



When is the "yoke" removed? If it is in a moment at salvation then redemption & repenting isn't an ongoing requirement but just a one time event.
You can't say I'm saved and then tell me I've got to keep on repenting. You can't tell me the yoke is removed but I must now be a slave to God. 
Either the "Yoke of sin" is removed or it's not. We shouldn't need any proof of salvation. We arn't required to be disciples.
Unless the Kingdom of God is totally different from salvation.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> When is the "yoke" removed? If it is in a moment at salvation then redemption & repenting isn't an ongoing requirement but just a one time event.
> You can't say I'm saved and then tell me I've got to keep on repenting. You can't tell me the yoke is removed but I must now be a slave to God.
> Either the "Yoke of sin" is removed or it's not. We shouldn't need any proof of salvation. We arn't required to be disciples.
> Unless the Kingdom of God is totally different from salvation.



We aren't required to be disciples? You may get some argument out of some folks about that. Where do you get all this mental stamina to keep on questioning? I'm not sure if I should be jealous, or thankful.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> We aren't required to be disciples? You may get some argument out of some folks about that. Where do you get all this mental stamina to keep on questioning? I'm not sure if I should be jealous, or thankful.



From the Holy Spirit. I thought we were required to be slaves. Freedom from sin equals slaves/servants to God.

 Do you think the "fall of man" or "the corruption of man" was orchestrated  by God as some predestination believers do?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> We aren't required to be disciples? You may get some argument out of some folks about that. Where do you get all this mental stamina to keep on questioning? I'm not sure if I should be jealous, or thankful.



I don't know if my mission here is to test the spirits or to get you to. If it's to get you to then God sent me here. 
Some believe we all have a certain predestined calling in life.

I agree I probably need to knock it down a knotch. Maybe go fishin'


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> I think what Gem was alluding to is you said Satan using his free will gets permission form God.
> If he had free will, why did he need permission from God?


He needs permission because he does not have freedom from God. At best, Bama believes in limited free-will, so he does have some view of God in mind with his thinking.



Artfuldodger said:


> I agree free will under a sovereign God is a little more complicated. I still believe in free will but it does get complicated. I can accept that.


It is complicated because you have to dismiss God in order to make room for it. This is not an easy task.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't know if my mission here is to test the spirits or to get you to. If it's to get you to then God sent me here.
> Some believe we all have a certain predestined calling in life.
> 
> I agree I probably need to knock it down a knotch. Maybe go fishin'



I'm not suggesting you knock it down a notch, just admitting my inability to keep up, and admiring how you investigate every possibility.


----------



## barryl

Bama4me said:


> Nor does citing the "AV" part to the KJV citation.
> 
> Barry... yes, I've lost my salvation in times past.  Earlier in my life after my conversion, I stopped living for Christ and began living for myself.  I thank God that my life didn't end during that time period.  So, yes... I've lost my salvation.


Does my trying to be clear offend you? Just so you or anyone wants to know, I believe the KJV AV is the infallible, inspired, perfectly preserved word of God. Psalms 12:6-7 Maybe you did what I did in my earlier{Penecostal} days, biggest mistake I made was listening to man and not getting rooted and grounded in the word of God!! Naturally, not a one of em' made that suggestion to me, kinda sounds like the RCC to me, Barry, you don't need to read and study{2 Tim. 2:15} a bible, we will tell you what you need to know. All that ever happened to me was I had the Saints{?} trying to talk me out of my salvation, guess what, it didn't work. There is a real good thread over on the "Christianity and Judiaism" page called "Assurance of Salvation" you ought to look into. I got one question for you, which one of the 24+ greek texts do you use?


----------



## barryl

centerpin fan said:


> Next time you're on, take a gander at post 49 here:
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=765871


Hey CP, you probably think thats the only thing I discussed with my son. Tell ya' what, next time, I'll check with you first. Boy, I sure was glad he could turn a backflip, give me a high five, 3 hail marys, and run a 9 sec. 100.


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Hey CP, you probably think thats the only thing I discussed with my son. Tell ya' what, next time, I'll check with you first. Boy, I sure was glad he could turn a backflip, give me a high five, 3 hail marys, and run a 9 sec. 100.





What on earth are you talking about?


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> What on earth are you talking about?


He missed your direction to post 49.


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> He missed your direction to post 49.



He must have.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> I have no disagreement with what you said here, other than God does not force that which he completely controls. I have never said that we do not make choices. Only that our choices are not free of God but rather determined by him.



According to the Bible, that's hogwash.
.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> He missed your direction to post 49.



I wish he would find it. I've done been there 3 times to read his response.


----------



## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> All that ever happened to me was I had the Saints{?} trying to talk me out of my salvation, guess what, it didn't work. There is a real good thread over on the "Christianity and Judiaism" page called "Assurance of Salvation" you ought to look into. I got one question for you, which one of the 24+ greek texts do you use?



I'm not even trying to take away your assurance of salvation. When does the "Yoke of sin" get lifted off a Christian and would you agree with this:

Paul's point was that the Corinthians were behaving like unsaved people: they were doing the very things that the unbelievers did, including practicing homosexuality. However, the Corinthians were saved because they were in Christ: "Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God" (1 Cor. 6:11). Because of their new identities in Christ, they were no longer counted as homosexuals (or as any other types of sinners) even though they continued to do the same things they did before they were saved. Paul exhorted the Corinthians to cease from sin on the basis that it was both incompatible with their new identities and displeasing to their Lord. Since God is going to condemn people to he!! for these sins, Christians ought to take their own sins more seriously. Unbelieving homosexuals are unsaved; believing homosexuals are saved.


----------



## barryl

centerpin fan said:


> He must have.


Oh no I didn't, post 49 is exactly what I am referring to, I told my son , you got to work to be saved. You know.


----------



## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> Oh no I didn't, post 49 is exactly what I am referring to, I told my son , you got to work to be saved. You know.



Post 49 from another thread was actually in ref to we were all waiting for your answer to this question:

:
Originally Posted by gemcgrew  
Barryl, are you saying that what the believing Jews experienced in Acts 2 is different from what believing gentiles experienced in Acts 11? 


We were expecting a more specific answer.


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Oh no I didn't, post 49 is exactly what I am referring to, I told my son , you got to work to be saved. You know.



So Acts 2 salvation is different from Acts 10 salvation?  Feel free to answer in the other thread.


----------



## barryl

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm not even trying to take away your assurance of salvation. When does the "Yoke of sin" get lifted off a Christian and would you agree with this:
> 
> Paul's point was that the Corinthians were behaving like unsaved people: they were doing the very things that the unbelievers did, including practicing homosexuality. However, the Corinthians were saved because they were in Christ: "Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God" (1 Cor. 6:11). Because of their new identities in Christ, they were no longer counted as homosexuals (or as any other types of sinners) even though they continued to do the same things they did before they were saved. Paul exhorted the Corinthians to cease from sin on the basis that it was both incompatible with their new identities and displeasing to their Lord. Since God is going to condemn people to he!! for these sins, Christians ought to take their own sins more seriously. Unbelieving homosexuals are unsaved; believing homosexuals are saved.


O.K. C G, thats "Cocked Gun", my new nickname for you . You ought to consider changing your name to that! Why, cause it's no tellin' which way you are goin' to go off next!! Check out 1 Cor. Ch. 9.  God has never sent a Christian to he77. What about Romans Ch. 7: 15-25 KJV AV


----------



## Bama4me

barryl said:


> Does my trying to be clear offend you? Just so you or anyone wants to know, I believe the KJV AV is the infallible, inspired, perfectly preserved word of God... I got one question for you, which one of the 24+ greek texts do you use?



When people like yourself call it the "Authorized Version", people today believe you are saying that the VERSION - that God "inspired" the KJV translation team in a similar way to the way He inspired the autographs of the bible (which you seem to believe).  Problem is that this idea lacks proof... either from the bible or any other source.  IF one wants to advance this argument, the ONLY way to do so is to apply it to the original autographs - which we do not have any copies of today.

NO version, the KJV or others, are faultless.  God's hand while undoubtedly involved in the process of creating a sound translation, doesn't not "inspire" translation teams in such a way that errors do not take place... whether it be the KJV translators or any others.  Citing Psalm 12:6-7 is NOT proof for your argument.

Regarding the "24 Greek texts" you refer to, it's never a good idea to only "use one"... because errors could (and do) exist.  Look... I'm NOT saying the KJV isn't a reliable version.  It, like several others, used a "word for word" method in their work.  However, they were NOT inspired people - unable to make errors in what they did.  As I've mentioned prior in the thread, to claim the KJV is infallible and without errors is being dishonest - and greatly harms the trust people have in those who claim such.


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> He needs permission because he does not have freedom from God. At best, Bama believes in limited free-will, so he does have some view of God in mind with his thinking.



Then you agree with this concept... "Satan has freedom within the bounds that God has defined"?


----------



## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> O.K. C G, thats "Cocked Gun", my new nickname for you . You ought to consider changing your name to that! Why, cause it's no tellin' which way you are goin' to go off next!! Check out 1 Cor. Ch. 9.  God has never sent a Christian to he77. What about Romans Ch. 7: 15-25 KJV AV



1 Corinthians 9
Run Your Race to Win
…25Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> I have no disagreement with what you said here, other than God does not force that which he completely controls. I have never said that we do not make choices. Only that our choices are not free of God but rather determined by him.



That's contradictory to itself.  If choices of man ultimately are "determined" by God (without any qualifiers/criteria to be met), man does NOT exercise freedom of choice.  

Under this scenario, not ONE thing is can be decided of his own free will.  Not the color of the car he drives... not the town he will live in... not the type of detergent he washes his clothes in.  In your theology, ALL of those things have been predetermined by God... and man is merely a puppet or a robot.

There are so many biblical passages which oppose this it's difficult to choose from among them.  However, maybe it's 2 Peter 3:9 which undermines this theology most easily.  If Jesus said some would spend eternity in he!! and others would spend eternity in heaven (i.e. Matthew 7:13-14) and 2 Peter 3:9 claims "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance"... there are some devastating outcomes which result using this theory of "God's sovereignty".

IF God truly desires all men to be saved, the fact He predetermined their outcome based solely on HIS choice could mean He really DOESN'T want everyone to be saved.  Or, it could mean that He doesn't possess the power to save them - though He would like to.  Or, it may be that God really DOES want everyone to be saved, but 2 Peter 3:9 wasn't really the true "word of God."  Any of these scenarios present "unreconcilable differences", but they must be explained by those supporting this theology.

Which one Gem... is God's character misrepresented?  Did He inspire people to write things that are incorrect?  Does He lack the power - is He not "sovereign"?  Or, is the fault in the word - it's really not from God?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Original sin, fall of man, corruption of man. Does that sound like something God caused?
Ecclesiastes 7:29 But I did find this: God created people to be virtuous, but they have each turned to follow their own downward path."


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> Original sin, fall of man, corruption of man. Does that sound like something God caused?
> Ecclesiastes 7:29 But I did find this: God created people to be virtuous, but they have each turned to follow their own downward path."



That's got to be a misprint.  kidding.
.


----------



## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> O.K. C G, thats "Cocked Gun", my new nickname for you . You ought to consider changing your name to that! Why, cause it's no tellin' which way you are goin' to go off next!! Check out 1 Cor. Ch. 9.  God has never sent a Christian to he77. What about Romans Ch. 7: 15-25 KJV AV



I suggest that you have no idea what God has or has not done.  He hasn't asked us, and He doesn't need to justify to us whether He has or has not, or will or will not.
.


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> That's contradictory to itself.  If choices of man ultimately are "determined" by Him (without any qualifiers/criteria to be met), man does NOT exercise freedom of choice.


That is my point.


Bama4me said:


> Under this scenario, not ONE thing is can be decided of his own free will.  Not the color of the car he drives... not the town he will live in... not the type of detergent he washes his clothes in.  In your theology, ALL of those things have been predetermined by God... and man is merely a puppet or a robot.


Who created man? What about the blind man. Is he free to drive and pick the color of his car? Does he possess the same freedom of choice as you? 

Did you choose to be born? Choose your parents? Your ethnicity, your siblings, birth place, first school, teacher, etc. Did this make you a puppet or a robot? Were you not dependent upon your parents? How much more are we dependent upon God who sustains everything?



Bama4me said:


> There are so many biblical passages which oppose this it's difficult to choose from among them.  However, maybe it's 2 Peter 3:9 which undermines this theology most easily.  If Jesus said some would spend eternity in he!! and others would spend eternity in heaven (i.e. Matthew 7:13-14) and 2 Peter 3:9 claims "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance"... there are some devastating outcomes which result using this theory of "God's sovereignty".


This is only trouble for you. Scripture is clear on who the "any" and "all" are. But you think it means all men without exception. 
Another problem for your worldview is omniscience, God is all knowing. You say that God is not willing for anybody to go to he11, yet he created them. He created he11, with them fully in view. 



Bama4me said:


> IF God truly desires all men to be saved, the fact He predetermined their outcome based solely on HIS choice could mean He really DOESN'T want everyone to be saved.


And these are your mental hurdles when you deny the doctrine of election. This is also why you deny the absolute sovereignty of God, in all things.



Bama4me said:


> Or, it could mean that He doesn't possess the power to save them - though He would like to.  Or, it may be that God really DOES want everyone to be saved, but 2 Peter 3:9 wasn't really the true "word of God."  Any of these scenarios present "unreconcilable differences", but they must be explained by those supporting this theology.


And I have explained it time and time again. Man is so slaved to self, he can not consider the All Powerful God. That is, unless God determined to reveal it.



Bama4me said:


> Which one Gem... is God's character misrepresented?  Did He inspire people to write things that are incorrect?  Does He lack the power - is He not "sovereign"?  Or, is the fault in the word - it's really not from God?


Everything is just as it should be.


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## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> That is my point.
> 
> Who created man? What about the blind man. Is he free to drive and pick the color of his car? Does he possess the same freedom of choice as you?
> 
> Did you choose to be born? Choose your parents? Your ethnicity, your siblings, birth place, first school, teacher, etc. Did this make you a puppet or a robot? Were you not dependent upon your parents? How much more are we dependent upon God who sustains everything?
> 
> 
> This is only trouble for you. Scripture is clear on who the "any" and "all" are. But you think it means all men without exception.
> Another problem for your worldview is omniscience, God is all knowing. You say that God is not willing for anybody to go to he11, yet he created them. He created he11, with them fully in view.
> 
> 
> And these are your mental hurdles when you deny the doctrine of election. This is also why you deny the absolute sovereignty of God, in all things.
> 
> 
> And I have explained it time and time again. Man is so slaved to self, he can not consider the All Powerful God. That is, unless God determined to reveal it.
> 
> 
> Everything is just as it should be.



Government is "sovereign" as it pertains to authority over people... but that doesn't mean citizens of those governments "cannot exercise freedom of choice".  It simply means government has the power to set parameters within which its citizens operate.

You and I highly disagree... you say a person cannot be the one who chooses to be saved.  I say the person in question IS the one who makes that choice.  Either way, though, we both believe in God's sovereignty - although you keep saying I don't.  Your definition of sovereignty doesn't agree with the whole of Scripture - and I don't have to try to change definitions of words like "any" and "all" in order to fit my belief system into a book which completely refutes it.


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## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> Government is "sovereign" as it pertains to authority over people... but that doesn't mean citizens of those governments "cannot exercise freedom of choice".  It simply means government has the power to set parameters within which its citizens operate.
> 
> You and I highly disagree... you say a person cannot be the one who chooses to be saved.  I say the person in question IS the one who makes that choice.  Either way, though, we both believe in God's sovereignty - although you keep saying I don't.  Your definition of sovereignty doesn't agree with the whole of Scripture - and I don't have to try to change definitions of words like "any" and "all" in order to fit my belief system into a book which completely refutes it.


But that is exactly what you do. You compared God's sovereignty to that of government, when in fact, it is God who rules all governments. 
He is so absolutely sovereign, you shouldn't even question it.
"Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?"


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## M80

Y'all use some big words for me. The bible says we must come to him as children. It is that child like faith that Jesus teaches us about. I believe in predestination, but I believe all can be saved. It is the individuals choice. I am a whosever will believer, but I believe that through predestination god knew everyone that would receive him. He is all knowing. He knew what decision we would make before the foundation of the world. That is why the bible says we are a chosen generation. He knew we would accept him so we are his chosen. I DO NOT believe that god picks who he wants to be saved and who he wants to go to he11. I believe like barryl said that god doesn't send no one to he11, people chose he11 when they reject The Lord.


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## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> Y'all use some big words for me. The bible says we must come to him as children. It is that child like faith that Jesus teaches us about. I believe in predestination, but I believe all can be saved. It is the individuals choice. I am a whosever will believer, but I believe that through predestination god knew everyone that would receive him. He is all knowing. He knew what decision we would make before the foundation of the world. That is why the bible says we are a chosen generation. He knew we would accept him so we are his chosen. I DO NOT believe that god picks who he wants to be saved and who he wants to go to he11. I believe like barryl said that god doesn't send no one to he11, people chose he11 when they reject The Lord.


"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."(Eph 1:3-6)

"But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased."(Psa 115:3)

"Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places."(Psa 135:6)

"The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:"(Isa 14:24"


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## M80

gemcgrew said:


> "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."(Eph 1:3-6)
> 
> "But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased."(Psa 115:3)
> 
> "Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places."(Psa 135:6)
> 
> "The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:"(Isa 14:24"



People get what they want to see out of verses. If we was raised a certain way, we are usually dead set in our ways. When I read these verses you have highlighted I do not get out of these verses what you get. 

See I stand firm on "for whosever shall call upon the name of The Lord shall be saved". John 3:16, and for god sent not his son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved. Also, "not willing that ANY should perish, but ALL come to repentance". Very clear to me, but you will believe they are all clear to you on your beliefs. 

I do believe in free will, but that is of the flesh, once we are saved, the inner man is bought by Jesus and he owns us.  Like the yoke y'all was discussing. How can the ox seperate himself from the yoke with the other ox. He can't, he can try to run, lay down, fight against the other ox, but he can't unhinge the yoke from the other, neither can we seperate ourselves from The Lord.


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## hobbs27

Why can predestination and freewill not coexist?

God knows all that has happened is happenning and will happen...We all agree on this. So God knows all that will be saved...Man cannot be saved on his own ...we all agree with this, right?   Salvation is of the Lord, no one is disputing this?

 So why can a man not get the invitation to be saved by God...deny it and choose not to be saved ..Just like God knew he would from the beginning?


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Why can predestination and freewill not coexist?
> 
> God knows all that has happened is happenning and will happen...We all agree on this. So God knows all that will be saved...Man cannot be saved on his own ...we all agree with this, right?   Salvation is of the Lord, no one is disputing this?
> 
> So why can a man not get the invitation to be saved by God...deny it and choose not to be saved ..Just like God knew he would from the beginning?



I can agree to that if the first Adam and the last Adam had those same choices which I believe they did.


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## Israel

I appreciate we all have "dispositions"...if you will. Even predispositions become obvious, to us...I believe.
I again, cannot speak for Gem, but would ask him in our discussion, as I already suspect the answer...has God not absolutely demolished so much of prior thinking?
Outwardly we look at a man, perhaps his words, and doings...and suspect the motives are easily discernible...by saying "well, he was just raised that way...and he has an inclination toward those things. Whereas I (whoever that may be) could never see that in the Lord because well, I just have this way of looking at things.

Brothers...all I can say is God is constantly uprooting in me previous understandings and predispositions. I cannot prove this to anyone...for at any instant in time, a man could say "well, I know how he got there, just listen to him...he obviously has a "bent" toward this or that (sovereignty of God, election...or perhaps...in distinction, the unencroachable will of man).

I cannot say this plainly enough, I know, for my motives immediately come into play the moment I, or you say anything...but speak we , nonetheless...the knowledge of God is so far removed from anything I have previously experienced in truth, that unless one were to watch the arc of my life...or yours...it may be easily dismissed as "well, he never changes his position to anything he says he believes...how or why should I expect to?"

But I have discovered...again...nonetheless, I "thought" I knew what love is...and in that easily restricted my understanding of this "For God so loved the world..." to my own understandings of that...but, I find...my own understandings are always being shattered by a love that far exceeds...and now makes my own previous understanding...seem so poverty stricken in my sight as to be laughable.

Oh, yes, I thought I knew what "mercy" meant, also.
Now, I know I am not telling anyone what they do not know...we grow. We are changed in the inner man. Light brings understanding.

If I were to speak to you of something so basic as to seem absurd now, I would tell you, I am learning a little bit about prayer.
Suffice it to say...there was rarely a time previously that when the word came up...my instant reaction was one of guilt and shame over something in which I considered myself far too delinquent and lazy, and at this point I cannot even say that was not "rightly so".
But I see there was someone...a something, that was very willing to take advantage of my very limited understanding of that simple word...and plunge me into a place I now see the Lord was not present.
He did this by making it an obligation...a chore...a thing that which, I was conned into thinking...if I did "enough of" I could consider myself an adequate disciple. But when the lie is exposed...for I was never told what was enough...never told...what adequate meant...or what it should "feel" like...I was left only knowing the deficiency...always!

Don't mistake my above words to mean I now see I am promoting adequacy in myself...as though I have  come to terms with a meaning that now allows me to say "oh, yes, I do "enough" of that now". God forbid.

In truth, what I am discovering is my total inadequacy in all things...and beginning to not see prayer as an obligation, a measure of anything EXCEPT a blessed gift...to one who now is learning his need in all situations...and finding...something provided...so desperately needed there...but there!
"Lord, I should pray more" seems to be something not a few disciples I have known could have uttered in their closets.

then perhaps we begin to know a friend...so winning in his ways...so willing to do what he said he would...take us places...previously we would have never ventured...into all our naked need...and from there teaches us...this is why I told you men should always pray...and not faint...not because you meet some standard of "goodness" if you do...but you will find a ample opportunity to cry out for help...in the places I will show you.

And you will find the delight of speaking to a Father...who has always loved you for just being...you...and has never put a hoop or challenge before you in order for you to attain to someday being free enough to believe "OK, now you are allowed to be".

Silly, isn't it? All I thought I believed...was shown to be so far less than the faith of the son of God...that faith...that is never at home anywhere but in the Father's bosom.
And so...even of the things I may be learning...I am learning the word "believe" is far deeper than I ever knew. While at the same time...made so remarkably obvious...and simple.

What word or words...is/are a stumbling block to us? Election? Sovereignty?
Free? Come? Stay? Go? Remain? Speak? Be silent? Sheep? Goat? Whosoever? no One? All? Labor? Rest?


There's only one place where these will ever be made plain to us...where they will "mean" what the speaker means...and all of them always lead us precisely to that very place with our questions...our desire...our misunderstanding seeking understanding...


"unto you is given to know the mystery of the Kingdom..."

All things are possible with God...


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## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> Why can predestination and freewill not coexist?
> 
> God knows all that has happened is happenning and will happen...We all agree on this. So God knows all that will be saved...Man cannot be saved on his own ...we all agree with this, right?   Salvation is of the Lord, no one is disputing this?
> 
> So why can a man not get the invitation to be saved by God...deny it and choose not to be saved ..Just like God knew he would from the beginning?



  Scriptural.
.


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## hummerpoo

Aha! My eyes have been opened:
“…not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief…”
The “day of the Lord” will not come until everybody is saved.
I’m a Universalist.
Thanks guys, you have been a great blessing to me, but I don’t need you anymore.


Rats, I shouldn’t have looked back;
“The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.  But the day of the Lord will come like a thief …”
It looks like “any” and “all” refer to “you”.  There’s a tired old question.  Who is Peter addressing?  Wait, maybe it’s the translation.  Rats again, everybody says either “you” or “us” … probably didn’t get out of it that way.  O.K., who is “you” or “us”?  Looks like it’s “beloved”.

I’m baaack … just gotta see who is beloved to Peter.

On another subject, is sarcasm a sin?  Sounds like a thread title, huh?


Seriously … All sarcasm aside, being able to discuss subjects such as we have here without sarcasm, or rancor, is an absolute requirement of fulfilling the commandment that we show the love of our Savior to the world (I find no other evangelism, that is intended for every believer, in scripture).  Who recalls the saying “Tell everybody you meet about Jesus, and if you absolutely must, us words.”


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## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> Why can predestination and freewill not coexist?
> 
> God knows all that has happened is happenning and will happen...We all agree on this. So God knows all that will be saved...Man cannot be saved on his own ...we all agree with this, right?   Salvation is of the Lord, no one is disputing this?
> 
> So why can a man not get the invitation to be saved by God...deny it and choose not to be saved ..Just like God knew he would from the beginning?



Technically, what you outlined is not "predestination"... it's "foreknowledge".  God knows the future, though He allows US to determine the path we choose.  In that sense, absolutely... they can coexist.

Like Ronnie said... that's biblically true right there.


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## Israel

What if the Book Of Jonah...really isn't about "someone else"?
What if there really is a disciple who has some experience with God...at least enough to understand "go and tell"...but really doesn't know enough about the God who says "go and tell" to know why the going and telling is important to that God, and really...in his heart resents the "telling" to a people he doesn't find as fit as himself...or worthy to enjoy a relationship?

Could it be by many "head pains"...such a one could be brought to blurt out precisely what is going on inside, of which God is already well aware..."I don't really like that you are going to show mercy to people I don't want to see it!"

Is it possible that such a "moment" of naked, unhindered hearts truth...could engage God in such a way to further the conversation...?...so that even such a man might discover...you get upset with all creation when you stub your toe, hit your finger with a hammer...cry out in desperation when you discover a flat tire interrupts your plans...but you casually dismiss the loss of souls that I have created...with much care and painstaking perfection...as though...you really don't know me at all. 
Could it be?


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## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."(Eph 1:3-6)"



In the above verses Paul is referring to Himself and all Jewish believers(notice the constant use of the words..  "our"  "us"  "we"  "us"  "us").

Then, read the change in direction at verse 13.......

13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory."

*You also
after
1) listening to the message of truth, which is the gospel of your salvation
2) and having believed.........
you Gentiles at Ephesus were sealed in Him..........


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## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> But that is exactly what you do. You compared God's sovereignty to that of government, when in fact, it is God who rules all governments.
> He is so absolutely sovereign, you shouldn't even question it.



You're proving my point for me.  God is sovereign... His authority supersedes any government.  However, God allows governments to exercise "free moral choice" within the parameters HE has set - parameters that only "God" knows (Daniel 2:21).  The same is true for all men.  God created us and possesses authority over us.  However, WITHIN those parameters, we exercise "free will".  That is, we are allowed to choose our course in life - God does not choose it for us.


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## hummerpoo

Brother Israel, It must be my mood tonight (what ever that is) but as I read your excellent post #1010 one statement kept flashing across my mind.

"Human thought is so primitive it's looked upon as an infectious disease in some of the better galaxies. That kind of makes you proud, doesn't it?"

We can’t even effectively communicate our thoughts one to another.  Praise God, He can understand even the thoughts we can’t think.


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## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."(Eph 1:3-6)



Key phrase in Ephesians 1:3-6... "in Him".  The "Him" in the passage is referring to Christ.  Before the foundation of the world, God predetermined all people who would be "in Christ" would be saved.  The opposite would also be true - God predetermined those who wouldn't be "in Christ" to be lost.  Thus, the question changes to "how does the NT say one gets "in Christ"? 

The answer, if you'll take the time to look it up, is found in Galatians 3:26-28.  You'll not find any passage in the NT which says a person gets "in Christ" through the choice of God - it's the individual's choice.

What then, is this "predestination" spoken of in Ephesians 1?  It is a predestination of two GROUPS of people.  If we have attended grade school, we understood the concept.  When a class syllabus was given to us, we learned that 2 groups had been "predetermined" - those who would (1) pass and (2) fail.  Which group would we end up in?  The group our TEACHER selected "for us"... or the group OUR ACTIONS placed us in?


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## Artfuldodger

I have an even easier explanation. God has chosen all of us. He has predestined all of us. He wishes all of us to be saved. He hopes all of will be adopted for the good pleasure of his will.
If God has chosen all of us and we don't all become followers, would not this imply free will? Otherwise we would all be saved.


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## Ronnie T

Israel said:


> What if the Book Of Jonah...really isn't about "someone else"?
> What if there really is a disciple who has some experience with God...at least enough to understand "go and tell"...but really doesn't know enough about the God who says "go and tell" to know why the going and telling is important to that God, and really...in his heart resents the "telling" to a people he doesn't find as fit as himself...or worthy to enjoy a relationship?
> 
> Could it be by many "head pains"...such a one could be brought to blurt out precisely what is going on inside, of which God is already well aware..."I don't really like that you are going to show mercy to people I don't want to see it!"
> 
> Is it possible that such a "moment" of naked, unhindered hearts truth...could engage God in such a way to further the conversation...?...so that even such a man might discover...you get upset with all creation when you stub your toe, hit your finger with a hammer...cry out in desperation when you discover a flat tire interrupts your plans...but you casually dismiss the loss of souls that I have created...with much care and painstaking perfection...as though...you really don't know me at all.
> Could it be?




I was pondering Jonah this morning.
I was thinking, 'what is the greatest lesson, or things for me to learn, from Jonah?  What did God want me to see here?

1.  Is it about me, and how much smarter I am than Jonah?
2.  Or maybe it's about how many times I've been eaten by a whale of stupid know-it-all ness.
3.  Maybe it's about God's longsuffering patience.
4.  Maybe it's to prove that the Nineveh's would always hear what they needed to hear.
5.  Maybe it's so I can see myself sitting in the hot sun, angry that God didn't do what I wanted.

Maybe Jonah and I have learned our lesson.


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## Artfuldodger

Now is the time for the Potter & clay story. Again I do understand that is in the Bible. Instead of repeating that or another predestination story, show me a verse of free will requiring obedience, believing, repenting, asking, loving, forgiving, or helping. Tell me how to overcome my belief in freewill with those verses.
Give me help or guidance on those verses that refute your belief of predestination. 
I don't need any help understanding the Potter and his clay. If you really want to convince me I don't have any free will, then help me with the verses that say I do have free will.


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## Ronnie T

That's it.  One thousands replies is the limit.
Nothing left to be said.


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