# If christians would like to understand...



## Achilles Return (Oct 20, 2010)

the foundation of an atheist's skepticism or exactly what the notion of "atheism" means, I implore you to watch this video.

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Feel free to leave me comments/feedback. I'll do my best to answer questions.


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## fish hawk (Oct 20, 2010)

GO TO BED and get some sleep!!!


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## VisionCasting (Oct 20, 2010)

Achilles Return said:


> the foundation of an atheist's skepticism or exactly what the notion of "atheism" means, I implore you to watch this video.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNDZb0KtJDk
> 
> Feel free to leave me comments/feedback. I'll do my best to answer questions.



That's a great video for understanding the atheist's POV.  Thanks for sharing.  Is his opinion universally true of all atheists?  

I see a wide gap between the atheist, agnostic and apathetic.  He's spot-on there.


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## fish hawk (Oct 20, 2010)

Achilles I have a question for you.Do you even hunt or fish or enjoy the outdoors at all.I have gazed upon your past post and it seems the only section you frequent is the Spiritual and political sections.I bet your one of those thats afraid to walk in the woods while its still dark.right.Heres an open innovation for ya.come on over to Harris county and I will take you hunting but remember you will have to walk to the stand by yourself and it will be dark,let me know.You know theirs more to life than sitting on your computer all night long trying to prove that God does not exist!!!!


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## Achilles Return (Oct 20, 2010)

VisionCasting said:


> That's a great video for understanding the atheist's POV.  Thanks for sharing.  Is his opinion universally true of all atheists?
> 
> I see a wide gap between the atheist, agnostic and apathetic.  He's spot-on there.



I wouldn't go so far as to say universally. I _would_ suspect that a great majority of atheists you speak to are far more likely to be "weak-atheists" who lack belief in gods than "strong-atheists" who are certain no gods exist.


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## Achilles Return (Oct 20, 2010)

crbrumbelow said:


> Better challenge.  Go to a Bible teaching church and sit and pay attention.  You WILL hear things that apply in your life that can only be explained by the belief in God.  You will then have no choice but to accept or deny.



I grew up the church. You are incorrect. Nothing can be "explained" by belief in a god. It is the ultimate logical cop-out. If something cannot be explained, I take it for what it is - demonstration of the limited nature of my knowledge. I don't subscribe to religion (or anything, for that matter) to simply provide myself with answers to difficult questions.  




> Oh and I am in the top 10% of the critical thinkers.  You dont be a cop for 10 years and not be.  Thats why I have a hard time understanding why people dont believe.



I think the trend is that higher intelligence and education corresponds with less participation in religion. There is research to back this up. So building yourself up as an expert in critical thinking seems pointless to me. It's committing fallacious appeals to both authority and incredibility.


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## Achilles Return (Oct 20, 2010)

fish hawk said:


> Achilles I have a question for you.Do you even hunt or fish or enjoy the outdoors at all.I have gazed upon your past post and it seems the only section you frequent is the Spiritual and political sections.I bet your one of those thats afraid to walk in the woods while its still dark.right.Heres an open innovation for ya.come on over to Harris county and I will take you hunting but remember you will have to walk to the stand by yourself and it will be dark,let me know.You know theirs more to life than sitting on your computer all night long trying to prove that God does not exist!!!!



To be honest, I signed up with the express intention of posting as a newbie hunter looking for advice, but circumstances of life happened. My buddy that I was going to start hunting with changed jobs and now I don't really have a place to hunt, or anyone to hunt with. 

I post here and in the political forum because the demographics are intriguing. There are not many places on the internet where I can be politically and religiously challenged so earnestly. I enjoy the debate. 

I am not here to de-convert anyone though. I merely post to defend skepticism as an intellectual alternative to believing what I believe is religious dogma. As well as to clear up any misunderstandings.


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## davidstaples (Oct 20, 2010)

fish hawk said:


> Achilles I have a question for you.Do you even hunt or fish or enjoy the outdoors at all.I have gazed upon your past post and it seems the only section you frequent is the Spiritual and political sections.I bet your one of those thats afraid to walk in the woods while its still dark.right.Heres an open innovation for ya.come on over to Harris county and I will take you hunting but remember you will have to walk to the stand by yourself and it will be dark,let me know.You know theirs more to life than sitting on your computer all night long trying to prove that God does not exist!!!!



fish hawk - I think you'll find about the same is true of my posts... I don't think I've posted anywhere but the spirituality and political sections on GON, but I do own a horse farm and spend plenty of time outdoors.  You can also find me on other forums such as Expedition Portal, Chronicle of the Horse and TractorByNet though I go by ShortBusGeek in some other places.  I just happen to be a web developer by trade and spend quite a bit of time online as well.


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## davidstaples (Oct 20, 2010)

crbrumbelow said:


> Oh and I am in the top 10% of the critical thinkers.  You dont be a cop for 10 years and not be.  Thats why I have a hard time understanding why people dont believe.



I'm a member of MENSA which I guess means my intelligence is in the top 2%.  I'm agnostic but was raised to go to church every Sunday and Wednesday.  I don't know that you'd understand my disbelief if I explained it.  

Let's put it like this.  Extraterrestrial life may or may not exist.  I don't know that for sure and neither do you.  Until some concrete evidence exists I'll maintain that position.


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## jason4445 (Oct 20, 2010)

The main reason people are atheist, and by that they do not believe in a God, not that they don't believe in your God, is that they have suffered some trageity in their life ( the loss of a child, sickness and suffering of a loved one, etc.) and since some believe that God controls everything they now hate and refuse to believe in a God that causes their loved one such suffering.

The second reason is for the "WOW" factor - they want to shock and freak people out so they announce to everyone how no God exists.  I see the same thing in people who are Satanist, they love to "creep" people and particularly Christians out.  These people just love to be different and this is how they show it.

I can count on one hand the number of people whom, for no particular reason just do not believe there is a God.  A cousin of mine was like this.  She lived in all place the hill country of Texas, raised in this Bible Belt, and she would say "I have no God to bow down to and no Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- to fear - when you die you merely go to sleep and that is the end."

Most who many in here think are atheists are really agnostics and there are as many levels of agnosticism as their are Christians.  A pure agnostic is someone who thinks there is a God, but he just created everything and then went on to better things.  God is not in control and does not want to be.

I totally believe in God, all I have to do it go out in my yard and there is all the proof I need, and I also think there is a bit of God in every single human.  In fact the Gnostic Gospel of Phillip follows the Godpel of Luke practically word for word except Phillip says that Jesus said " To find God look not only to the heavens, but look inside of your self as well.  This was probably why Phillip was chosen not to be a book of the Bible since early Christians wished to use guilt and the resulting pride once they believe to drive people to believe in Christianity using the theory that all human was miserable nasty creatures until they accept Jesus and are saved.

Logical and critical thinking is what makes humans human.  The thing that separates us from other animal species. Without it nothing would be invented


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## Ridge Walker (Oct 20, 2010)

jason4445 said:


> The main reason people are atheist, and by that they do not believe in a God, not that they don't believe in your God, is that they have suffered some trageity in their life ( the loss of a child, sickness and suffering of a loved one, etc.) and since some believe that God controls everything they now hate and refuse to believe in a God that causes their loved one such suffering.
> 
> The second reason is for the "WOW" factor - they want to shock and freak people out so they announce to everyone how no God exists.  I see the same thing in people who are Satanist, they love to "creep" people and particularly Christians out.  These people just love to be different and this is how they show it.
> 
> I can count on one hand the number of people whom, for no particular reason just do not believe there is a God.  A cousin of mine was like this.  She lived in all place the hill country of Texas, raised in this Bible Belt, and she would say "I have no God to bow down to and no Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- to fear - when you die you merely go to sleep and that is the end."


There are plenty of people that don't believe in a God because the whole concept of a God makes no sense at all.

RW


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## Ridge Walker (Oct 20, 2010)

crbrumbelow said:


> Things have happened in my life that give no alternative but to conclude the fact that God is real, he appeared on earth in the flesh, and I am saved by grace.
> 
> 
> 
> Psa 14:1  To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.



Could you give an example of what happened in your life that could only be explained by God being real?

RW


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## crbrumbelow (Oct 20, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> I'm a member of MENSA which I guess means my intelligence is in the top 2%.  I'm agnostic but was raised to go to church every Sunday and Wednesday.  I don't know that you'd understand my disbelief if I explained it.
> 
> Let's put it like this.  Extraterrestrial life may or may not exist.  I don't know that for sure and neither do you.  Until some concrete evidence exists I'll maintain that position.



Mensa.  Hmm I did pretty well on their little practice quiz.  28 out of 30 right on the first try ain't too bad huh.


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## SneekEE (Oct 20, 2010)

The video said God needed worship.... erm... I have never heared God needed worship, in fact, God does not "need" anything. God is worthy of our worship, but does not need us to worship Him, it is out of His goodness He has given us an opertunity to worship Him.

Acts 17:24-25, God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands,AS THOUGH HE NEEDED ANY THING seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things.


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## Achilles Return (Oct 20, 2010)

crbrumbelow said:


> Things have happened in my life that give no alternative but to conclude the fact that God is real, he appeared on earth in the flesh, and I am saved by grace.



That's fine and dandy for you - but to me it's only hearsay. Subjective personal revelation is not objective evidence. As long as you don't claim it to be so, we don't have any problems.



> Psa 14:1  To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.



You mean like Bill Gates and Warren Buffett? Those despicable men who have given the largest private philanthropic donations in human history (Buffet giving some 83% of his wealth to charity)?  How abominable of them. 

Do you not see how ridiculous that is? 

I have another video for you, I think it would do you well. 

<p>Atheist from Zachary Kroger on Vimeo.</p>


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## Achilles Return (Oct 20, 2010)

crbrumbelow said:


> Working patrol one night, I responded to an accident with injuries call.  I got to the scene and the car was engulfed in flames.  A mother and three children were in the car.  I could hear screams.  I ran to the car and busted the window with my asp.  The mother screams "Oh God thankyou an angel an angel.  Youre going to save my baby."  I couldnt get the doors open the car was too mangled.  The other children were dead.  Just take my word for it.  They were dead.  In a car seat in the middle of the back seat was baby and she was just looking at me.  Not crying, just smiling like she knew me.  I reached in and pulled the baby out.  I made it about 20 yards and something on the car blew up and shot flames into the cabin of the vehicle.  I never had a burn or scar or singed hair.  When I passed the baby off she screamed like someone hadnt changed her diaper in three days.  I was wearing a standard polyester uniform and it did not melt.  They tried to say mother died on impact.  Her neck was broken.
> 
> God is real........
> 
> ...



For your two stories of nice things that happened in your life - dozens can be mentioned of things bad in other lives. I'm sorry, but getting your A/C fixed when you were low on cash doesn't mean much as a hundred thousand of people die from starvation each day. Where is your god in that? 

You cannot account for god in one instance and ignore his lack of action in another. It's cognitive dissonance of the highest order.


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## Ridge Walker (Oct 20, 2010)

crbrumbelow said:


> Working patrol one night, I responded to an accident with injuries call.  I got to the scene and the car was engulfed in flames.  A mother and three children were in the car.  I could hear screams.  I ran to the car and busted the window with my asp.  The mother screams "Oh God thankyou an angel an angel.  Youre going to save my baby."  I couldnt get the doors open the car was too mangled.  The other children were dead.  Just take my word for it.  They were dead.  In a car seat in the middle of the back seat was baby and she was just looking at me.  Not crying, just smiling like she knew me.  I reached in and pulled the baby out.  I made it about 20 yards and something on the car blew up and shot flames into the cabin of the vehicle.  I never had a burn or scar or singed hair.  When I passed the baby off she screamed like someone hadnt changed her diaper in three days.  I was wearing a standard polyester uniform and it did not melt.  They tried to say mother died on impact.  Her neck was broken.
> 
> God is real........
> 
> ...



I mean absolutely no disrespect, but if either of your examples happened to me it would not cross my mind that God was responsible. Certainly, they can not be only explained by the presence of a God. In fact, I've had insurance companies send checks out to me for overpayment as well, with no telephone call. I'm pretty sure it's standard operating procedure. 
RW


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## davidstaples (Oct 20, 2010)

Achilles Return said:


> I'm sorry, but getting your A/C fixed when you were low on cash doesn't mean much as a hundred thousand of people die from starvation each day. Where is your god in that?



They must have forgotten to tithe...


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## Achilles Return (Oct 20, 2010)

crbrumbelow said:


> The following verse applies to you.  You clearly feel the need for someone to take your side so you wont be alone.  You wont be, you will join the likes of the richest in the world.  I feel sorry for you.



Please don't feel anything for me. Feel for yourself. You've created a model of the world that says humanity is nothing more than sinners and evildoers. That our scientists and inventors are fools and philanthropists are vile creatures who do abominable deeds. That our nation's heroes are burning in a lake of fire because they didn't take the blood sacrifice of a god to himself for his own works, based on the writings of an ancient people that had slavery and didn't eat shrimp. 

I did nothing but take your verses to their literal conclusions. If you don't like what you see, that is on you and your own morality. 



> So in my wisdom I will refrain from the senseless arguments with fools and not participate in this atheist for from this point on.



That's fine. If calling me a fool and running away makes you feel better about all of this, have at it.


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## fish hawk (Oct 20, 2010)

Achilles Return said:


> To be honest, I signed up with the express intention of posting as a newbie hunter looking for advice, but circumstances of life happened. My buddy that I was going to start hunting with changed jobs and now I don't really have a place to hunt, or anyone to hunt with


I think you should continue to pursue your interest in hunting.And by the way when I invited you to go hunting I was being serious.Shoot me a PM when your on winter break.


davidstaples said:


> fish hawk - I think you'll find about the same is true of my posts... I don't think I've posted anywhere but the spirituality and political sections on GON, but I do own a horse farm and spend plenty of time outdoors.


Thanks your right,Sometimes I forget we all have different interest.


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## Sargent (Oct 20, 2010)

Replace "God(s)" in the video with "Love".

Love has all the characteristics of a belief in a supernatural being.


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## Six million dollar ham (Oct 20, 2010)

crbrumbelow said:


> So in my wisdom I will refrain from the senseless arguments with fools and not participate in this atheist for from this point on.



There it is.    Like clockwork.


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## VisionCasting (Oct 20, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> I'm a member of MENSA which I guess means my intelligence is in the top 2%.



FINALLY!  There it is.  I've been waiting for this one for almost a month now.  And it finally came out!  Most atheist's true motivation:  a haughty feeling of intellectual superiority fueling a damaged sense of self-worth.

I love when people make the MENSA claim.  Kind of like showing your cards before the turn bet.


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## Thanatos (Oct 20, 2010)

Achilles Return said:


> Please don't feel anything for me. Feel for yourself. You've created a model of the world that says humanity is nothing more than sinners and evildoers. That our scientists and inventors are fools and philanthropists are vile creatures who do abominable deeds. That our nation's heroes are burning in a lake of fire because they didn't take the blood sacrifice of a god to himself for his own works, based on the writings of an ancient people that had slavery and didn't eat shrimp.
> 
> I did nothing but take your verses to their literal conclusions. If you don't like what you see, that is on you and your own morality.
> 
> ...




The broad strokes of an atheist brush at it again. How long have you BELIEVED there is no God?


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## Achilles Return (Oct 21, 2010)

VisionCasting said:


> FINALLY!  There it is.  I've been waiting for this one for almost a month now.  And it finally came out!  Most atheist's true motivation:  a haughty feeling of intellectual superiority fueling a damaged sense of self-worth.
> 
> I love when people make the MENSA claim.  Kind of like showing your cards before the turn bet.



I pretty sure he only offered the information in jest. It was the christian that started the "I'm better at critical thinking than you" nonsense.

If this is what you've been waiting to hear, this is a pretty poor example of it.


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## Achilles Return (Oct 21, 2010)

Thanatos said:


> The broad strokes of an atheist brush at it again. How long have you BELIEVED there is no God?



You act like I did anything other than take his bible verse literally. If I did that incorrectly, then perhaps it should have been written differently. 

You clearly did not watch the first video.


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## Thanatos (Oct 21, 2010)

Achilles Return said:


> That our scientists and inventors are fools and philanthropists are vile creatures who do abominable deeds.



Of the many lines in your post this one shouts out, "I have no idea what I am talking about" the most. Your being as naive and ignorant as some of the sheltered Christians you disdain.


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## VisionCasting (Oct 21, 2010)

Achilles Return said:


> I pretty sure he only offered the information in jest.



Reality check, puuuuuhhhhleeeezzzeeeee.  It was a statement of arrogance and should be called out as such.


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## TTom (Oct 21, 2010)

And your call out on your fellow christian for the same arrogance happens when?

I read it as a return fire situation where crbrumbellow fired the first "I'm smarter than most" shot and davidstaples simply fired back with a bigger gun with the Mensa comment.


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## drippin' rock (Oct 21, 2010)

jason4445 said:


> The main reason people are atheist, and by that they do not believe in a God, not that they don't believe in your God, is that they have suffered some trageity in their life ( the loss of a child, sickness and suffering of a loved one, etc.) and since some believe that God controls everything they now hate and refuse to believe in a God that causes their loved one such suffering.
> 
> The second reason is for the "WOW" factor - they want to shock and freak people out so they announce to everyone how no God exists.  I see the same thing in people who are Satanist, they love to "creep" people and particularly Christians out.  These people just love to be different and this is how they show it.
> 
> ...



I thought the Bible was divinely inspired??


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## Achilles Return (Oct 21, 2010)

VisionCasting said:


> Reality check, puuuuuhhhhleeeezzzeeeee.  It was a statement of arrogance and should be called out as such.



It's clear you had already made up your mind about us long before he said anything (which is pretty obvious he only said as a rebuttal).

Are you going to call out your fellow christians for the same kind of arrogance?


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## Achilles Return (Oct 21, 2010)

Thanatos said:


> Of the many lines in your post this one shouts out, "I have no idea what I am talking about" the most. Your being as naive and ignorant as some of the sheltered Christians you disdain.



Is Psalm 14:1 correct or not? If this causes you discomfort, perhaps you should example your holy text more closely.


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## stringmusic (Oct 21, 2010)

Sargent said:


> Replace "God(s)" in the video with "Love".
> 
> Love has all the characteristics of a belief in a supernatural being.



your right, God is love. God equals love, ever how you want to phrase it


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## stringmusic (Oct 21, 2010)

Achilles Return said:


> For your two stories of nice things that happened in your life - dozens can be mentioned of things bad in other lives. I'm sorry, but getting your A/C fixed when you were low on cash *doesn't mean much as a hundred thousand of people die from starvation each day. Where is your god in that?[/*




people that die from starvation everyday is not God's fault, it's mans. You ask where he is, he is in Heaven welcoming the ones who wanted his will in their life and will never be hungry again.


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## Thanatos (Oct 21, 2010)

Achilles Return said:


> Is Psalm 14:1 correct or not? If this causes you discomfort, perhaps you should example your holy text more closely.



You have taken the verse out of context. Non religious people have done wonderful things for our species, but this verse refers to the fact that non believers did it for other motives than pleasing God. NORMALLY this leads one to sin but not always.


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## davidstaples (Oct 21, 2010)

VisionCasting said:


> Reality check, puuuuuhhhhleeeezzzeeeee.  It was a statement of arrogance and should be called out as such.



It wasn't arrogant at all.  It was in response to the guy that stated that he's in the top 10% of critical thinkers.  I'd like to know how he came to that conclusion.  I've at least had to take a test to become a member of an internationally recognized organization.  Where does he come up with the backing for his claim?


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## Achilles Return (Oct 21, 2010)

Thanatos said:


> You have taken the verse out of context. Non religious people have done wonderful things for our species, but this verse refers to the fact that non believers did it for other motives than pleasing God. NORMALLY this leads one to sin but not always.



Context isn't some magical excuse to get out of what words and sentences actually mean. You're re-creating the context for your own purposes, to get out of the conclusions the true meaning sets up for you. Deflect, Deflect, Deflect.

The verse and context are clear. Twisting its meaning so you don't have to live with the truth is sad.


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## Achilles Return (Oct 21, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> people that die from starvation everyday is not God's fault, it's mans. You ask where he is, he is in Heaven welcoming the ones who wanted his will in their life and will never be hungry again.



"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"
- Epicurus


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## Achilles Return (Oct 21, 2010)

My primary point is that you cannot say you "feel" god's presence in _your_ life, which is ultimately dealing with things that are far more petty and trivial (I can't pay for my A/C!), and then ignore the lack of action as people on other continents suffer and die to malnutrition. It's clearly hogwash.


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## SarahFair (Oct 21, 2010)

Interesting video! Thanks!


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## stringmusic (Oct 21, 2010)

Achilles Return said:


> "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? -no
> Then he is not omnipotent.- wrong
> Is he able, but not willing?-not in his will
> Then he is malevolent.-wrongIs he both able and willing?-yes for the able, not in his will.
> ...



God could have made the world without evil.
God could have made the world with only good.
God could have made the world without either.
God made the world with both.
The last one of these is the only one were people have a choice and are shown love. Free will.
There will be two types of people in the end. the ones that say to God "I accept you and your will be done"
and the ones that say "I reject you" and God says to them "your will be done"
ultimate love.


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## Thanatos (Oct 21, 2010)

Achilles Return said:


> Context isn't some magical excuse to get out of what words and sentences actually mean. You're re-creating the context for your own purposes, to get out of the conclusions the true meaning sets up for you. Deflect, Deflect, Deflect.
> 
> The verse and context are clear. Twisting its meaning so you don't have to live with the truth is sad.



Hahahaha! Wow! I am so pleased to have an enlightened atheist who knows more than preachers and bible scholars on this forum. 

You do realize by your own statement that you are doing the same thing you accused me of doing? The only difference is I have some-what studied the Bible and you have studied...


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## crbrumbelow (Oct 21, 2010)

I never fired the "I am smarter than you" bullet.  I made a comparison that I too am a critical thinker.  Never claimed to be smarter than anyone.  

Good people die everyday and go to He11.  They refuse to accept Jesus as lord and savior.  I never said the marine was a bad person.  I thank him for serving our country.  Bill Gates and the rest of them may give all their money to whoever they want.  If they have not accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior they are doomed to He11.   

So I will pose a couple of questions.  Yes or no answers only.

God sent his Son as a blood sacrifice, that all men should believe on Him and come to repentance.  Just say in your county of residence,  if you were the Lord would you give your only begotten son as a blood sacrifice?

Now saying you did give your only son,  would you be angered at those that did not receive him as a savior?

Would you send those that did not to a he11?


God is completely justified in the fact that those who do not accept Jesus will suffer a judgement of an eternity in the lake of fire.  Would you not feel the same way?



This is what Jesus himself is saying.
Joh 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 

Works will not get you into heaven.

All the atheists on here,  I am praying for you.  God knows the real name behind the user names.  I verbally call them out in prayer and pray that God will bring you low to lift you high and that you will come to repentance and accept Jesus as your savior.  

Even though I am a born again christian I am not flawless nor is any man or woman.  I apologize if any of my posts offended anyone.

I do pose one more thought.  By me being a christian,  I experience Gods love, grace and mercy and live a wonderfully happy life.  I know what awaits me.  By living this way, what harm do I cause an atheist.  I dont impose God on any.  As a Christian you are commanded to spread the gospel and I offer it freely.  If they dont want to hear then I bid them farewell.  If they dont want to read move on.  It does not hurt my feelings.  I just wonder what kind of life the atheist lives thinking that nothing awaits them in the end.  They must die in torment.  I know that I will die with peace in my heart.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Oct 21, 2010)

Soooooo, an Athiest is capable of forming a true or false opinion without having all of the facts!!!


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## Six million dollar ham (Oct 21, 2010)

crbrumbelow said:


> God sent his Son as a blood sacrifice, that all men should believe on Him and come to repentance.  Just say in your county of residence,  if you were the Lord would you give your only begotten son as a blood sacrifice?
> 
> Now saying you did give your only son,  would you be angered at those that did not receive him as a savior?
> 
> ...



"No" to all questions asked there.


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## stringmusic (Oct 21, 2010)

Six million dollar ham said:


> "No" to all questions asked there.



why "no" to all questions asked. explain please.


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## davidstaples (Oct 22, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> why "no" to all questions asked. explain please.



Why does "the Lord" need to make a blood sacrifice of his own son for anyone?  Isn't he the big wig in charge?  I think your God (if it exists) would see the fallacy in that argument.


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## stringmusic (Oct 22, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> Why does "the Lord" need to make a blood sacrifice of his own son for anyone?  Isn't he the big wig in charge?  I think your God (if it exists) would see the fallacy in that argument.



your quotations should have been around the word need, I will help you re-write your sentence

Why does the Lord "need" to make a blood sacrifice of his own son for anyone?

he doesn't, he did it out of love.


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## davidstaples (Oct 22, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> your quotations should have been around the word need, I will help you re-write your sentence
> 
> Why does the Lord "need" to make a blood sacrifice of his own son for anyone?
> 
> he doesn't, he did it out of love.



No, I used quotes around "the Lord" because it was capitalized.  Quotes aren't typically used to stress a word in the form that you used it.  If you want to rewrite it for me, you can rewrite it as such:

Why does your lord *need* to make a blood sacrifice of his own son for anyone?

Secondly - then he's not cruel, he's sadistic.


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## stringmusic (Oct 22, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> No, I used quotes around "the Lord" because it was capitalized.  Quotes aren't typically used to stress a word in the form that you used it.  If you want to rewrite it for me, you can rewrite it as such:
> 
> Why does your lord *need* to make a blood sacrifice of his own son for anyone?
> 
> Secondly - then he's not cruel, he's sadistic.



so love = sadistic in your book?


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## davidstaples (Oct 22, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> so love = sadistic in your book?



If I crucified and tortured my son and said it was because I loved everyone in Georgia... is that truly love?  I think we have different definitions of love.


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## dexrusjak (Oct 22, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> If I crucified and tortured my son and said it was because I loved everyone in Georgia... is that truly love?  I think we have different definitions of love.



Yes, if it was to save everyone from a huge, eternal fire pit.  Unless of course you were the one responsible for people being thrown into the fire pit in the first place.  But that's just crazy talk.  Someone who loves everyone enough to sacrifice his son so they won't burn in an eternal fire pit couldn't possibly be sadistic enough to create the fire pit in the first place.  Could he?


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## davidstaples (Oct 22, 2010)

dexrusjak said:


> Yes, if it was to save everyone from a huge, eternal fire pit.  Unless of course you were the one responsible for people being thrown into the fire pit in the first place.  But that's just crazy talk.  Someone who loves everyone enough to sacrifice his son so they won't burn in an eternal fire pit couldn't possibly be sadistic enough to create the fire pit in the first place.  Could he?



  I can't tell if you're being serious or sarcastic here...


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## stringmusic (Oct 22, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> If I crucified and tortured my son and said it was because I loved everyone in Georgia... is that truly love?


to answer your question NO.
 God is love, so in his case yes, giving everyone on the planet an ultimate sacrifice knowing that some would still not chose him. Yep, I'd say thats true love



> I think we have different definitions of love.



See above when I said God is love. WE dont have different definitions of love. there is only one definition.


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## stringmusic (Oct 22, 2010)

dexrusjak said:


> Yes, if it was to save everyone from a huge, eternal fire pit.  Unless of course you were the one responsible for people being thrown into the fire pit in the first place.  But that's just crazy talk.  Someone who loves everyone enough to sacrifice his son so they won't burn in an eternal fire pit couldn't possibly be sadistic enough to create the fire pit in the first place.  Could he?



so God should have created a world where there is no sin, and everybody just worshiped him?


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## Thanatos (Oct 22, 2010)

The problem with your version of H E L L is that you are thinking about demons running around with pitchforks in a furnace. 

H E L L, simply put, is spending eternity without God knowing that you made the wrong choice. Eternal darkness.

That being said would you kill your own son to save every human born from that torment after his death? That is if you believe your soul will last for eternity. If you do not then your good to go right?


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## davidstaples (Oct 22, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> to answer your question NO.
> God is love, so in his case yes, giving everyone on the planet an ultimate sacrifice knowing that some would still not chose him. Yep, I'd say thats true love
> 
> 
> ...




But I am love too. (After all, the Bible says we were made in his image and likeness.)  So if I am love, that should mean that me making that ultimate sacrifice by crucifying and torturing my son should get me in good with the big guy in the sky right?


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## davidstaples (Oct 22, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> so God should have created a world where there is no sin, and everybody just worshiped him?



Pretty much.  I think he goofed.  Either that, or when we die you just automatically get into heaven... you know... that whole "come as you are" / "come as I am" thing.  Why else would he have created HE(( and given people the option to either go to HE(( or believe in him and go to heaven - when he only presents himself in a physical form once in an eternity.  (Though I guess you could argue twice if you include the second coming / rapture / etc.)  Three times if you include the Jesus burnt into that piece of toast that was on eBay some time ago.  

I can't believe this board censors the alternative word for heck.  Holy freaking cow.


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## stringmusic (Oct 22, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> *But I am love too*. (After all, the Bible says we were made in his image and likeness.)  So if I am love, that should mean that me making that ultimate sacrifice by crucifying and torturing my son should get me in good with the big guy in the sky right?



no your not, and yes we are made in Gods image and likeness, but we are not made equal with Him.
You are getting a little silly now, why do you try so hard to not  understand?


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## stringmusic (Oct 22, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> Pretty much.  I think he goofed.  Either that, or when we die you just automatically get into heaven... you know... that whole "come as you are" / "come as I am" thing.  Why else would he have created HE(( and given people the option to either go to HE(( or believe in him and go to heaven - when he only presents himself in a physical form once in an eternity.  (Though I guess you could argue twice if you include the second coming / rapture / etc.)  Three times if you include the Jesus burnt into that piece of toast that was on eBay some time ago.
> 
> I can't believe this board censors the alternative word for heck.  Holy freaking cow.



If you had a world where the only option was good, then you would not have a choice, He gave us a choice, all the more he loves us. If you die and go to he!! then it was not Gods choice, it was yours, dont keep making it out to be anything but. please tell me that you understand this.


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## Nicodemus (Oct 22, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> Pretty much.  I think he goofed.  Either that, or when we die you just automatically get into heaven... you know... that whole "come as you are" / "come as I am" thing.  Why else would he have created HE(( and given people the option to either go to HE(( or believe in him and go to heaven - when he only presents himself in a physical form once in an eternity.  (Though I guess you could argue twice if you include the second coming / rapture / etc.)  Three times if you include the Jesus burnt into that piece of toast that was on eBay some time ago.
> 
> I can't believe this board censors the alternative word for heck.  Holy freaking cow.




Welcome to a family friendly site. A place where Ladies and children can come and have a nice enviroment to spend some time. 

Unique for the web, ain`t it?


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## davidstaples (Oct 22, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> no your not, and yes we are made in Gods image and likeness, but we are not made equal with Him.
> You are getting a little silly now, why do you try so hard to not  understand?



I was raised in church.  I totally understand your point of view and used to be in your shoes.  I proactively made the decision that I didn't believe the silly stuff you do anymore.  My father is a southern baptist and my mother was a christian scientist (no, not scientology... christian science.. the mary baker eddy denomination).  I've been to church with friends that were lutheran, methodist, episcopalian, presbyterian, catholic, church of christ, church of god and more.  I may very well be more versed in the different views of Christianity than most people in this Atheist / agnostic / apologetics forum.

Anyhow, let's take the premise that you're made in the image and likeness of your god from Genesis 1:27... and that he's perfect.  How can something perfect make something in his image and likeness that is not perfect?  It didn't say that he made man mostly in his image but with a few changes.  That's like saying I look like Cindy Crawford... but different.  (Okay, so I stole that line from Larry the Cable Guy.)

Here, read up some on Christian Science... this stuff will probably blow your mind... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Science


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## TTom (Oct 22, 2010)

Why have a punishment for not believing at all?

I mean the simplest non sadistic non sociopathic system would be to reward belief and allow disbelief to result in the natural consequences.

Don't believe, then guess what when you die that's it. Perfectly fair you just cease to exist. No need for flames and torments. (which I don't believe in anyway)


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## stringmusic (Oct 22, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> I was raised in church.  I totally understand your point of view and used to be in your shoes.  I proactively made the decision that I didn't believe the silly stuff you do anymore.  My father is a southern baptist and my mother was a christian scientist (no, not scientology... christian science.. the mary baker eddy denomination).  I've been to church with friends that were lutheran, methodist, episcopalian, presbyterian, catholic, church of christ, church of god and more.  I may very well be more versed in the different views of Christianity than most people in this Atheist / agnostic / apologetics forum.
> 
> Anyhow, let's take the premise that you're made in the image and likeness of your god from Genesis 1:27... and that he's perfect.  How can something perfect make something in his image and likeness that is not perfect?  It didn't say that he made man mostly in his image but with a few changes.  That's like saying I look like Cindy Crawford... but different.  (Okay, so I stole that line from Larry the Cable Guy.)



Yes, God is perfect, so he can do anything, even make something that is not perfect. I know its hard for you and me to wrap our brains around. He made us in his image, your argument is that how can the image of something perfect not be perfect.? The answer to that is, IMO, God has the same choice we do, to sin or not to sin, we chose to sin he didn't. We could still be without sin and pure if not for the DECISIONS(back to that word again) we make. And no if we would have made the choice not to sin, we would still not be equal to God. I dont think you can be equal to your maker.



> Here, read up some on Christian Science... this stuff will probably blow your mind... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Science


I quite reading about the second or third sentence when it started talking about some science book guidline or something like that. That is all I needed to hear.


Have you ever heard of Ravi Zacharias, If not look it up on youtube and watch some of them. He can answer these questions alot better than I can. You can watch debates between him a hindu scholars, and many of the well know athiest that are out there. 
It also seems that you are having a hard time with all the 
lutheran, methodist, episcopalian, presbyterian, catholic, church of christ, church of god and more thing, look at a new living translation of the bible, you sound like a pretty intelligent guy, I know that you can figure it out, when you have questions, ask somebody who knows the answer, dont get an answer from every dinomination that there is and when they dont add up, say to yourself..."this is a bunch of crap"


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## stringmusic (Oct 22, 2010)

TTom said:


> Why have a punishment for not believing at all?


Its not a punishment, its what you asked for, its your will being done in your life just like you wanted. 



> I mean the simplest non sadistic non sociopathic system would be to reward belief and allow disbelief to result in the natural consequences.


this is what happens



> Don't believe, then guess what when you die that's it. Perfectly fair you just cease to exist. No need for flames and torments. (which I don't believe in anyway)



I dont know quite what he!! is like, I know that God will not be present. If you reject him on earth he says "OK TTom you dont want anything to do with me, I love you so much that I am going to give you exactly what you want, you never have to worry about me or anybody trying to tell you about me ever again"


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## Gabassmaster (Oct 22, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> Its not a punishment, its what you asked for, its your will being done in your life just like you wanted.
> 
> 
> this is what happens
> ...






i do know from what ive hurd it is pitch pitch pitch pitch blac "eternal darkness" so even though you cant see others being burned you can still hear there voices....


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## TTom (Oct 22, 2010)

But yet the above statements have all been firey pits and lakes of fire and torments.

(until Thantoes who gets closer to my perspective but still includes a torment of knowledge)

My point would be fitting the nature of your life and the beliefs you held in your heart, your heaven, h e l l or reincarnation would be commensurate with that. 

If you simply didn't believe then an end to your soul when you die would be appropriate and commensurate with your "sin".


I have no scripture to base that on I have only the best effort to imagine a god who is just fair and loving.
(and in my mind holds all religion in a very dim view based on it's ability to screw up everything he has tried to do.)


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## crbrumbelow (Oct 22, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> your quotations should have been around the word need, I will help you re-write your sentence
> 
> Why does the Lord "need" to make a blood sacrifice of his own son for anyone?
> 
> he doesn't, he did it out of love.



Amen!


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## crbrumbelow (Oct 22, 2010)

What most are missing here is the fact that Jesus had a choice.  He prayed to His Father.  Through faith he gave himself as the ultimate sacrifice.  He could have easily uttered that he did not want to be tortured, beaten, spit on, stabbed, kicked,  and nailed and God the spirit could have sent legions of angels to defeat humans  and take the Son home.  Jesus knew what his Fathers will was and honored it.  While hanging on the cross Jesus said "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do."  He was praying for forgiveness for the very people who beat and tortured Him.  If that is not love, then I dont know what is.  He will ride again and the whole world will know without a shadow of a doubt the He is Lord.  When that time comes you will have no opportunity to rethink your decisions of belief and faith.  If you have heard or read the gospel and not accepted that Jesus died so that none shall perish but have everlasting life,  you are doomed to he11.  God is completely justified in sending those that do not accept Jesus to he11.


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## stringmusic (Oct 22, 2010)

TTom said:


> But yet the above statements have all been firey pits and lakes of fire and torments.


I can only speak my words, but its probably not a fun place to be.





> If you simply didn't believe then an end to your soul when you die would be appropriate and commensurate with your "sin".[/quote
> not trying to be a jerk, but you nor me or anyone else are  qualified to say what is appropriate to do in the case of sin.





> I have no scripture to base that on I have only the best effort to imagine a god who is just fair and loving.


He is just,fair, and loving, do you not agree that the post I had talking to you did at least a descent job at explaining it?



> (and in my mind holds all religion in a very dim view based on it's ability to screw up everything he has tried to do.)


Jesus is not a religion, it is a relationship.


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## TTom (Oct 22, 2010)

Yeha I keep jhearing that said about Jesus not being a relgion unfortunately the things people have done inhis name qualify it as a religion.

Sorry but My imagined God and your imagined God (and that is all we can do is imagine because to think we know all that God is would be to limit him and my God is without such limits) are very different images of God.

The God you describe lacks compassion in my mind. Because unlike you I believe I can judge that an act that in a limited human would be lacking in compassion would be even more lacking in a God.


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## Gabassmaster (Oct 22, 2010)

TTom said:


> Yeha I keep jhearing that said about Jesus not being a relgion unfortunately the things people have done inhis name qualify it as a religion.
> 
> Sorry but My imagined God and your imagined God (and that is all we can do is imagine because to think we know all that God is would be to limit him and my God is without such limits) are very different images of God.
> 
> The God you describe lacks compassion in my mind. Because unlike you I believe I can judge that an act that in a limited human would be lacking in compassion would be even more lacking in a God.





so your saying you would be good enough to go to heaven, that you dont sin?


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## TTom (Oct 22, 2010)

Nope never said anything like that.

You are making huge assumptions.

Tell me how you arrived at that interpretation of my beliefs from that quote?


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## Gabassmaster (Oct 22, 2010)

TTom said:


> Nope never said anything like that.
> 
> You are making huge assumptions.
> 
> Tell me how you arrived at that interpretation of my beliefs from that quote?



so if you died right now?.... where would you spend eternity?


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## TTom (Oct 22, 2010)

I'm gonna ignore you here because you refuse to actually converse.

If you choose to actually have a conversation then we can resume but I'm not here to be interrogated. You lack the standing to do so.

You asked me a question I answered and asked you a question. In a conversation the polite thing to do is to answer the question you were asked in return and then ask your question.


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## Gabassmaster (Oct 22, 2010)

TTom said:


> I'm gonna ignore you here because you refuse to actually converse.
> 
> If you choose to actually have a conversation then we can resume but I'm not here to be interrogated. You lack the standing to do so.




I stand by the bible, and if you cant back up what your saying with it then its just a matter of opinion, and opinions can be wrong.


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## stringmusic (Oct 22, 2010)

TTom said:


> Yeha I keep jhearing that said about Jesus not being a relgion unfortunately *the things people have done inhis name qualify it as a religion.[/*


No it doesn't, If I get alot of people to go around the U.S.A and tell everyone that TTom is stupid and punch myself in the face everytime I tell someone to prove it does that make you stupid?



> Sorry but My imagined God and your imagined God (and that is all we can do is imagine because to think we know all that God is would be to limit him and my God is without such limits) are very different images of God.


My image of God comes mostly from the Bible.



> The God you describe lacks compassion in my mind. Because unlike you I believe I can judge that an act that in a limited human would be lacking in compassion would be even more lacking in a God.


oooooh... so you dont like the God in the Bible, so you just make up your own? 
What so non compassionate about giving people what they want? People say to God that they dont want a relationship with Him and He grants them that wish and thats non compassionate? Am I missing something here?


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## dexrusjak (Oct 22, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> so God should have created a world where there is no sin, and everybody just worshiped him?



Or, how about a world similar to this one where people who die go to heaven by default rather than the other place.

Or, how about a world where people don't die (that's what you think heaven will be, right?).

Or, how about a world similar to this one where people who die go to heaven if they're good people and the other place if they're serial killers.

Or, how about a world similar to this one where people who die go to heaven if they're good people and the other place for a few years if they're serial killers and then go to heaven after they've learned their lesson.

Or, how about a world similar to this one where people who die go to paradise and are greated by seventy virgins.

Or, how about a world in which people who die apart from god simply cease to exist (rather than burn forever).

Or, how about a world in which lakes and ponds are full of fifty pound large mouth bass.

I am so much better at this world creating thing than the god of the Bible.


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## TTom (Oct 22, 2010)

You can say it's not all day every day for 874927459742957488 years and I'll still find your statement to be false, a dodge, a deliberate deflection. Jesus may not be a religion in a technical manner but Christianity is a religion by definition. You can't take Jesus out of Christianity and that binds the man and the religion, they are one.

Your image of God comes from the Bible

And I find the Bible a flawed and limited source, we will not find agreement there. I believe that the bible has been corrupted by man's influence. I know YOU believe it has not been nothing you can say will convert my belief nothing I can say will convert yours.


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## TTom (Oct 22, 2010)

Gabassmaster said:


> I stand by the bible, and if you cant back up what your saying with it then its just a matter of opinion, and opinions can be wrong.



See the above I find your Bible to be a flawed and limited source for information on the nature of God.

I find your source to be as much opinion as mine, and thus just as subject to being wrong.


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## crbrumbelow (Oct 22, 2010)

Another thing.  THE Bible says to evangelize and if you are given an opportunity to witness for the Lord, you are to do so.  If you dont, that persons blood could possibly be on your hands at the judgement.  The basic gospel is seen in this thread.  No blood on my hands.  Its your choice.  Heaven or he!!.  If you died right now where would you be in the blink of and eye.


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## dexrusjak (Oct 22, 2010)

crbrumbelow said:


> Another thing.  THE Bible says to evangelize and if you are given an opportunity to witness for the Lord, you are to do so.  If you dont, that persons blood could possibly be on your hands at the judgement.  The basic gospel is seen in this thread.  No blood on my hands.  Its your choice.  Heaven or he!!.  If you died right now where would you be in the blink of and eye.



Funeral home.


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## crbrumbelow (Oct 22, 2010)

That is one fast hearse.


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## Taporsnap77 (Oct 22, 2010)

i believe their is a god, he may not make himself known in my life everyday or make good things happen to me all the time but i get to wake up everyday and when i do need it im granted strength and courage to stay the course. Im not a guy who attends a church but it gives me hope to believe.


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## stringmusic (Oct 24, 2010)

dexrusjak said:


> Funeral home.



you don't have a soul?


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## dexrusjak (Oct 24, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> you don't have a soul?



Define "soul".


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## VisionCasting (Oct 24, 2010)

TTom said:


> Why have a punishment for not believing at all?



You are asking the wrong question.

Try this one instead:  "Why would a loving God force Himself on you for all eternity?"


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## dexrusjak (Oct 24, 2010)

VisionCasting said:


> You are asking the wrong question.
> 
> Try this one instead:  "Why would a loving God force Himself on you for all eternity?"



For the same reason that I would jump in a swimming pool to save a baby who had fallen in and was drowning.  The baby would be too stupid and helpless to save itself, so I, as an able-bodied, loving "higher being" would intercede for the baby (whether the baby liked it or not) and save the baby when the baby cannot save itself.

If I am as stupid and helpless as Christians claim (in comparison to almighty god) then one would think that a loving god would come to my rescue whether I wanted him to or not.  And before you start in with the all the "he did through Jesus" mumbo jumbo, that's not what I'm talking about.  I'm talking about pulling my behind out of the swimming pool (Heck) whether I ask him to or not.  I wouldn't wait on a baby to ask me to save it, I would just jump right in.


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## lakelbr (Oct 24, 2010)

I suppose that the answer I found was in order.  You walk through a pecan orchard with the trees planted neatly in order, you automaticaly assume someone planted them.  We are the precise distance from the sun to prevent freezing and to provide enough warmth.  The moon is the precise distance to constantly hover.  There is enough oxygen and water to support us, unlike anywhere we are aware of.  The human body, with all its amazing features, just didn't happen by chance.


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## stringmusic (Oct 25, 2010)

dexrusjak said:


> For the same reason that I would jump in a swimming pool to save a baby who had fallen in and was drowning.  The baby would be too stupid and helpless to save itself, so I, as an able-bodied, loving "higher being" would intercede for the baby (whether the baby liked it or not) *and save the baby when the baby cannot save itself.*


you can save yourself though.



> If I am as stupid and helpless as Christians claim


I am a Christian and I don't think your stupid and helpless, you seem to have let the devil win in your mind.



> (in comparison to almighty god) then one would think that a loving god would come to my rescue whether I wanted him to or not.


He did.




> And before you start in with the all the "he did through Jesus" mumbo jumbo, that's not what I'm talking about.  I'm talking about pulling my behind out of the swimming pool (Heck) whether I ask him to or not.  I wouldn't wait on a baby to ask me to save it, I would just jump right in.



How are you going to ask a Christian to not start with all that " Jesus mumbo jumbo"?


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## VisionCasting (Oct 25, 2010)

dexrusjak said:


> If I am as stupid and helpless as Christians claim...



Is you assertion that Christians are stupid and helpless?   Or simply that you are infinitely more intelligent than any Christian?


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## ambush80 (Oct 25, 2010)

VisionCasting said:


> Is you assertion that Christians are stupid and helpless?   Or simply that you are infinitely more intelligent than any Christian?



I would assert that a Christian (or any deist for that matter) has suspended their reason and intellect in order to believe in God; in other words, they used "faith".


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## dexrusjak (Oct 25, 2010)

VisionCasting said:


> Is you assertion that Christians are stupid and helpless?   Or simply that you are infinitely more intelligent than any Christian?



Read much?

No.  I'm saying that according to Christian doctrine, all human beings (not just me) are stupid, ignorant, pitiful in comparison to almighty god.


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## VisionCasting (Oct 25, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> I would assert that a Christian (or any deist for that matter) has suspended their reason and intellect in order to believe in God; in other words, they used "faith".



Faith is most certainly not the suspension of logic.  Instead it is the application of logic that bridges the gap between the observable and the logical conclusion.


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## ambush80 (Oct 25, 2010)

VisionCasting said:


> Faith is most certainly not the suspension of logic.  Instead it is the application of logic that bridges the gap between the observable and the logical conclusion.



You mean like the gap in my logic about living in a whale?  What logical conclusion should be drawn from such a claim?


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## VisionCasting (Oct 25, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> You mean like the gap in my logic about living in a whale?  What logical conclusion should be drawn from such a claim?



One thing at a time.   You are quick to dispute the authenticity of the literal translation of the Bible.  I'm not talking about that.  

Simply stating that faith, despite the object of that faith, is reasonable.  

Will your car start next time you turn the key?  You can not be certain of that.  But you may have come to a well informed conclusion that it will because it was in good working order with a full tank of fuel when you last left it.  Certainty?  No.  Well informed faith?  Yes.

So don't be quick to assume that Christians are ignorant or incapable of the application of logic just because they have faith in something.  You yourself have faith in much.


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## ambush80 (Oct 25, 2010)

VisionCasting said:


> One thing at a time.   You are quick to dispute the authenticity of the literal translation of the Bible.  I'm not talking about that.
> 
> Simply stating that faith, despite the object of that faith, is reasonable.
> 
> ...



Can we agree on a definition? From Webster:

Definition of FAITH
1
a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2
a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3
: something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>
— on faith
: without question <took everything he said on faith> 

Belief in my car starting is not faith.  I'm not certain that it will start every time, but that's my assumption based on proof.  I don't believe that Christians (I prefer deists, if you don't mind, because I think of you all in the same way) are inherently ignorant or illogical.  I have seen and heard much that indicates that deists are willing to suspend their reason in favor of superstition.


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## VisionCasting (Oct 25, 2010)

dexrusjak said:


> Read much?



Yes, in fact I am quite well read.



dexrusjak said:


> No.  I'm saying that according to Christian doctrine, all human beings (not just me) are stupid, ignorant, pitiful in comparison to almighty god.



Your conclusion on Christian doctrine is not accurate.  Neither a Christian's intellect nor value is diminished because of God's infinite nature.  That's a relativistic (and relativism requires judgment ergo is "judgmental") viewpoint.

Contrary, Christian doctrine would have a Christ-follower better defined as a saint, a son of a King.  That's hardly a picture of the 'stupid' or 'pitiful'.

I'd be happy to send you a copy of the Bible in a very readable modern, readable translation if you'd like (this isn't a , I'd really be happy to send you one - just PM me your info).  I'd even be happy to meet and read through any of it with you if you have genuine questions.  

Proverbs 1:7 - The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline.


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## dexrusjak (Oct 25, 2010)

VisionCasting said:


> Yes, in fact I am quite well read.
> 
> I thought you were.  That's why I didn't understand how you misunderstood what I wrote.
> 
> ...



Comments in blue.


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## davidstaples (Oct 25, 2010)

VisionCasting said:


> I'd even be happy to meet and read through any of it with you if you have genuine questions.



This, IMHO, is one of the many problems I see with Christians trying to "convert" / "witness to" the agnostics / atheists within this forum.  Many of us have read the Bible front to back... grew up in church... and are not just ignorant of what the Christian faith entails.  We have simply made an educated decision that we do not believe what Christians believe.


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## VisionCasting (Oct 25, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> Belief in my car starting is not faith.  I'm not certain that it will start every time, but that's my assumption based on proof.



No, belief that your car will start is not based on proof.  It's based on a pattern of reasoning.  Proof is a substantiation [after the fact] based on evidence.


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## ambush80 (Oct 25, 2010)

VisionCasting said:


> No, belief that your car will start is not based on proof.  It's based on a pattern of reasoning.  Proof is a substantiation [after the fact] based on evidence.



Empirical evidence?  Like when it started yesterday and five minutes ago and the last 1,486 times that I tried it?  That kind of evidence?

God is like that?  Is that what you're trying to say?


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## davidstaples (Oct 25, 2010)

VisionCasting said:


> No, belief that your car will start is not based on proof.  It's based on a pattern of reasoning.  Proof is a substantiation [after the fact] based on evidence.



Or it could be his assumption that it will start based on the proof that there is indeed an engine, starter, battery, oil, fuel, etc. (in addition to past performance)... all of which can be easily seen directly.  There is no direct proof of your god.


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## ted_BSR (Oct 29, 2010)

There is no direct proof of anything.  We all pick and choose our proof.  The video in the OP is certainly not proof of anything, or disproof of anything.

It was not really interesting either, but it was informative in the sense that your disbelief is based on as much unprovable fantasy as my belief.

Your faith in nothing is as great as my faith in God.

Level field, different opinions, one of us is right. I am OK with that.


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