# Some thoughts on ethics



## Todd Cook (Aug 8, 2014)

A thread got pulled from a well known trad site a couple days ago. A discussion had turned negative, and it should have been pulled. A fellow was talking/debating the merits of 2" feathers. Seems he wanted more speed, ect., ect.,. But what got me, and what got the moderator of that forum, was a comment he made. Basically he said" Why is it any different shooting at a deer or a target"?

Wow! I just don't know what to do with that. Isn't traditional supposed to be different? Aren't we holding ourselves to a higher standard?

I wonder if we are teaching bowhunting like we should be. Like teaching ethics, equipment, setup, ect.

I realize every one has freedom within the law to do as they choose. If they want to hunt with a 35 pound bow and shoot 300 grain arrows at deer 45 yards away, they legally have that right.

Do we as experienced trad bowhunters have the responsibility to speak up about such things? I think we do. 

Forgive my rambling, I've had a hard time putting my thoughts to paper on this one. 

I love to shoot foam. I really do. But I worry sometimes that the shots are too far. I know 3D is just a game, but I think some folks think " heck, I hit that deer target at 30 yards, I guess it would be fine to shoot at a real one that far". Maybe it is. Maybe I'm just not as good of a shot as they are.

Am I making to much out of this? Is the need for speed and distance simply part of what we do as people? All thoughts are welcome.


----------



## JBranch (Aug 8, 2014)

Personally, if all I were hunting for was the speed and distance, then I would shoot my rifle. There is a difference in shooting a deer over a target, that is the deer is a living, breathing being that is trying his hardest to not be dinner, just as I am trying my hardest to make him my dinner. The more distance and time you give him, the better chance he has to not be dinner. My target has never tried to jump my string. 

As far as the higher standard, I hunt with what I hunt with for my own personal standards, not as to be a higher standard. I know what is right for me, and it may not be right for anyone else, but I do feel that there are certain ethical standards in the Traditional Archery community and it is our responsibility to teach and demonstrate those to newcomers. 

3D shoots are meant to be challenging and I hope that no one takes those as a standard of shots to take on game. However, I do think some people are better shots than others. Each shot on game we take MUST be within our effective range and that range varies person to person, shot to shot. I don't think you are making too much out of this, Todd. I, too, would be concerned about such an attitude presenting itself, as it may tarnish the reputation of all of us.

Having said all of that, how do we respond to a person with that attitude, so as not to come across as judgemental or negative.


----------



## Dennis (Aug 8, 2014)

There is many different thoughts on the reason for the long targets. Me I like to shoot long shots it makes me do every thing correctly and maybe one day I can hit one of them. 
I think if a person is gonna take a unethical shot they will anyway no matter how they have been practicing. Its up to each individual to have the knowledge to take a shot within there capable range for me that's within 20 yards and I like 10 yards much better


----------



## dm/wolfskin (Aug 8, 2014)

Todd, sounds like he doesn't hunt much. Live animals is a whole different ball game. If you want speed hunt with a pulley type bow and light arrows if you want. I'm always trying to get an extra yard or foot when on the ground and when in a tree, I try to set up so that the critter will be pretty close and that's 15 yards or closer.


----------



## Skunkhound (Aug 8, 2014)

I agree with Mike, in that, I think the guy who posted this was relatively inexperienced as a hunter, and when I read that particular post from the site with the censor happy moderators, my first thought wasn't that he had no ethics, he just really didn't know what he was talking about. 
 I think as a community we are actually doing a really good job at educating those that come into the fold, and shouldn't be too hard on ourselves if some gung-ho, sloppy hunter does slip through the cracks. Traditional bow hunting attracts different people, sometimes for different reasons, and I think someone who doesn't have a whole lot of respect for the animal he's hunting, will eventually weed himself out. At least, I like to think so.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Aug 8, 2014)

When I hit the woods with a selfbow, cane arrows, and flint points, it's for my own reasons; which have nothing to do with wanting to have the fastest, best, or whatever. It is to experience hunting in its most primal, stripped-down, and pure form. To hunt with a real bow is to not only accept, but to embrace the limitations that it imposes on us. To substitute woodcraft for equipment, to hunt with a weapon that is powered by, and is basically and extension of, our own bodies. When it works, something almost spiritual comes out of the experience. Most folks with the mindset you described will usually not last long in traditional archery, because that is a 180* turn from the values that draw most people to it to begin with.

BTW, I hunt with 600+ grain arrows with 5 1/2" feathers.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Aug 8, 2014)

Didn't 3D shooting develop from hunters wanting more realistic target practice? As far as I know that was the intent.
I think it's just human nature to want to take longer shots because we always want to push ourselves - that's why records keep getting broken at The Olympics. 

Most hunters know that practice and actual hunting are rarely exactly the same, especially with high strung Southern deer. As for traditional archery ethics, you wouldn't imagine the long range "arrow flinging" people used to do back in the day. It wasn't pretty that's for sure. 

There's having fun - then there's getting the job done. For the most part (much thanks to the internet) the majority of bow hunters know deer are incredibly fast and tough. 
For me as a traditional hunter I need a "green-light" to shoot. Either I get that green-light or I don't. That means if it's a shot I know I can make, I'll take it. If there's any doubt, forget it - this is not my chance so no big deal and I wait for another chance. 

One thought on people shooting "lighter and faster" though, especially with compound bows: taking that 40 yard shot shooting 300 F.P. S. takes the arrow the same amount of time for a 20 yard shot shooting 150 F.P.S. to hit that deer - so you're not coming out ahead. Now factor in that many more arrow-deflecting obstacles in 40 yards versus 20 yards. 

I shoot a 38 pound recurve - so I know I have to be that much closer than many other bow hunters. Thus I pass up a lot of shots, but that's the fun of hunting with traditional archery. It's like some Plains Indian tribes who used a "coup stick" in battle. If during battle you could get close enough to an armed opponent to touch him with your harmless stick but get away alive, you were the better warrior, and your opponent was shamed.


----------



## Todd Cook (Aug 8, 2014)

Dennis said:


> . Me I like to shoot long shots it makes me do every thing correctly ]
> 
> That's a good point Dennis. Long practice shots do help form a lot. Lots of good points here.


----------



## Munkywrench (Aug 8, 2014)

Todd I just started reading the bowyers bible and I think it says it perfectly in the first chapter. There I a big difference in a bow hunter and an Archery hunter. Bow hunters are out trying to get the best and faster with all the gadgets and trying to shoot further, mean while the Archer is trying to teach what toxophilia is truly about and trying to live by the old ways


----------



## Dennis (Aug 8, 2014)

Next year at ngta do y'all want to have a ethical shoot in march it would score 10/8/-5


----------



## Barry Duggan (Aug 8, 2014)

My problems with long shots are, I'm not good at them shooting foam much less a critter. And, even if a critter is not aware an arrow is headed in its direction, one step by it can turn a good shot into one that is not so good.  Arrows don't fly faster than the speed of sound.


----------



## dpoole (Aug 9, 2014)

Just my 2 cents worth   I have been involved with setting up a few 3d targets for SGTP and TBG courses and setting up a 3d course for a fun shoot and setting up a course for actual ethical hunting shots that i would take aint the same. 3d courses are supposed to be challenging. there will be lots of target placements that i would never consider taking on live game. but it is fun to see if you can slip a arrow through a small opening into the kill zone on a foam target, Setting up tough and or long range shots also lets those of us that cant hit em know we dont need to be shooting a arrow at live game under the same circumstances. If we set all of our targets out in the wide open sideways at 10 yd  at a  SGTP shoot or a TBG shoot what fun would that be?  All of us have a desire to become better shooters thus making a 3d course challenging is what people  come for.


----------



## dm/wolfskin (Aug 9, 2014)

You're right in my book Poole. Let's have fun at the 3D shoots and make some shots challenging.


----------



## SELFBOW (Aug 9, 2014)

dm/wolfskin said:


> You're right in my book Poole. Let's have fun at the 3D shoots and make some shots challenging.



Lots of times we even talk and say I will or won't take that shot in a hunting situation....


----------



## Barry Duggan (Aug 9, 2014)

dm/wolfskin said:


> You're right in my book Poole. Let's have fun at the 3D shoots and make some shots challenging.



No problem with that...the arrow Gods have got to eat too.
In a hunting situation, I don't really get hung up on ethics, per say. If the green light comes on, I'm gonna fling it. It's more about me thinking I can make the shot, or not, with the equipment I have, than it is about ethics.
Some folks will try to tell you hunting with a trad bow is not ethical, but we all know that's not true.
I guess what I'm trying to say is it's more about common sense than ethics.


----------



## Hunter454 (Aug 9, 2014)

This will be my first year hunting with the stick and string, I still have my training wheel bow on stand by but plan to use the recurve more than anything, I have shot the recurve for a few years but haven't been serious about it and definitely not confident enough to take it hunting until this year, I have spent the time and money to buy properly spined arrows, traditional glue on broadheads (mostly for the cool factor honestly) and I spend every free moment practicing or reading this forum or others to learn all I can, I know my limitations and set up my stands accordingly,  15 yds is as far as I can shoot consistently and 10 yds is my "happy range"
I shoot a 495 grn arrow with 5" feathers ;-)


----------



## deast1988 (Aug 9, 2014)

I've been shooting everyday, my set up is 600grs. Ethics for me is closer the better. I'm not worried about deer in range. I've been shooting elevated off my deck and I'm finally starting to stack arrows into nice groups in the vitals of the targets I'm shooting at. I've set up a stand in a pretty food plot that if they step into it there in trouble. I'm not chasing speed, I like heavy arrows that fly great. Even with the wheels, last season I had 2 jump the string one at 12yds the other at 28yds. I'm working on confidence, I know that the time an arrow takes to travel distance bad things can happen. The closer the better. I'm totally a rookie at this and it looks like 20yds is a mile but 15yds is my sweet spot .


----------



## SELFBOW (Aug 9, 2014)

Hunter454 said:


> traditional glue on broadheads (mostly for the cool factor honestly)



Guess I'm cool.....

.


----------



## Hunter454 (Aug 9, 2014)

Very cool lol, I just wanted glue ons over screw ins for the "traditional feel" and I like being able to add some extra weight with adapters


----------



## Munkywrench (Aug 10, 2014)

For my broad heads I use screw in adapters for glue on points. I find this to be much easier to get proper BH alignment. It's far easier to adjust the alignment on the adapter than it is to turn the insert


----------



## Stump Shooter (Aug 10, 2014)

I agree with Poole, and others on keeping the trad shoots challenging but keep your shots on wild game ethical, don't try to stretch it. It's a lot better watching a deer walk off than it is watching one run off with a bad shot. I did not even shoot an arrow at a deer or hog last year but had them at 20-25 yards. When I was earlier into traditional hunting I did make longer shots but maybe should not have taken the shots I did take. Gotta be disciplined to stay within your ethical shooting distance, and FOR ME it's inside 15 yards.


----------



## Shoeman (Aug 10, 2014)

Great comments.   Unfortunately due to a trigger spot in my shoulder, I can't shoot more than five or six arrows in a day without getting a debilitating headache so I can't shoot 3ds much anymore but do agree that it is totally separate from hunting and see nothing wrong with long or brushy shots that one wouldn't take at a critter.   Any shooting helps you get to know your bow.      Like Chris said above, I shoot at animals when the shoot light comes on in my head.    A couple of years ago, I had target panic and wouldn't shoot at a critter over ten yards.   Thankfully, that is gone but my shoot light still doesn't come on often over fifteen.   Getting that close is part of the fun for me.      A lot of the time, guys who are inexperienced just don't yet believe that they can get plenty of very close shots - just takes time, practice, patience, and the willingness to accept that when you are trying to get that close there are going to be many awesome, exciting, and memorable screw-ups that make this sport so addictive.


----------



## frankwright (Aug 10, 2014)

I like the challenge of our 3D shoots but I would never shoot an animal in many of the target locations but I also know hunting and 3D are separate things.
IO have never been a fan of "ethical scoring" as I simply would not take most of the shots presented if it was a live animal and it would make for a boring instead of fun shoot.
Most of the time when I go to shoot one of our targets at a shoot I say " I need him to take three more steps"


----------



## oldfella1962 (Aug 10, 2014)

Hunter454 said:


> This will be my first year hunting with the stick and string, I still have my training wheel bow on stand by but plan to use the recurve more than anything, I have shot the recurve for a few years but haven't been serious about it and definitely not confident enough to take it hunting until this year, I have spent the time and money to buy properly spined arrows, traditional glue on broadheads (mostly for the cool factor honestly) and I spend every free moment practicing or reading this forum or others to learn all I can, I know my limitations and set up my stands accordingly,  15 yds is as far as I can shoot consistently and 10 yds is my "happy range"
> I shoot a 495 grn arrow with 5" feathers ;-)



Those glue on broad-heads do more than just look cool. It's the strongest most reliable way - no links in the chain, just arrow and broad head.  10 or 12 yards is about my "guaranteed green light" range too. My belief is if I have to think about the shot, it's too far. I pass up a ton of shots, but that's the fun of hunting with traditional archery.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Aug 10, 2014)

I'm not sure I understand. What does feather length have to do with anything? If I could depend on perfect broadhead flight with 2 inch feathers, that is what I would shoot. Am I missing something. The title of the thread may have taken my mind elsewhere. I was expecting unethical ranges. Mostly because deer are not stationary targets


----------



## Todd Cook (Aug 10, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> I'm not sure I understand. What does feather length have to do with anything? If I could depend on perfect broadhead flight with 2 inch feathers, that is what I would shoot. Am I missing something. The title of the thread may have taken my mind elsewhere. I was expecting unethical ranges. Mostly because deer are not stationary targets



The feather size wasn't really what I reacted to, it was just what started the whole thing on the other thread. The idea that a deer and a target were basically the same thing was what left me shaking my head. 

I'll be the first to admit I didn't do a good job putting my thoughts together on my first post.

A very experienced bowhunter was trying to explain how larger fletching can help when a bad release occurs, and the other fellow seemed to think that was silly, or old school thinking.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Aug 11, 2014)

Todd Cook said:


> The feather size wasn't really what I reacted to, it was just what started the whole thing on the other thread. The idea that a deer and a target were basically the same thing was what left me shaking my head.
> 
> I'll be the first to admit I didn't do a good job putting my thoughts together on my first post.
> 
> A very experienced bowhunter was trying to explain how larger fletching can help when a bad release occurs, and the other fellow seemed to think that was silly, or old school thinking.


Several big differences for me, deer move after the shot and broadheads require more than field points.


----------



## ddauler (Aug 11, 2014)

Ok fellas I take some grief for shooting big feathers my logic is simple. I am a bow hunter I am also a charter member of TBG we intentionally made sure It was not The Traditional Target shooters of Georgia and commited to having very few shoots for this reason. Feathers size is personal to a point I can shoot perfect bare shafts with field points with my Black Widow recurve would I hunt with them NO. I shoot mostly selfbows and shoot large High burn 5 - 51/2 inch feathers they shoot great shoaked with water, when I short draw and when I get a crappy release this is normal not atypical during hunting situations. I can shoot the same arrows from several different selfbows and my laminated bow. Like I said this has worked for me for 30 years and over 100 big game critters. Yes lil 2" feathers may work on the range but try soaked with water and two inches less than draw than your back yard shot and see what happens. I like my critters 10 yards or less these feather have that big ole snuffer or zwicky delta flyin straight is a couple yards. My case is for fat feathers and No I have never had a deer duck one because of feather noise now the string noise from my Black Widow was a different story....guess why I shoot a longbow again.

As for ethics I get sick of the word I prefer the word stewardship I don't owe a critter anything but I owe my Maker everything and believe we should be good stewards of our natural resources. I am torn at times between giving the critter a fair chance to get away and that awful word "ethics" taken to it's conclusion bowhunters would be in trouble if we think we owe a critter something. My 2 cents Todd.


----------



## Dennis (Aug 11, 2014)

Well said ddauler


----------



## John Cooper (Aug 11, 2014)

I try to stay out of the ethics threads just because my ethics will be different from yours....... I stir the pot a lot on the other sites just because I can't stand some old mossy back trying to tell me how I should or shouldn't hunt and if I should offer a prayer to the god of the hunt for a kill I made...... 

Hunt how you want to hunt!!!!! You only answer for yourself. ........


----------



## SELFBOW (Aug 11, 2014)

If arrows aint flying Critters aint dying is all I got to say about that....


----------



## robert carter (Aug 11, 2014)

Lots of guys have different feelings about stuff and I respect their opinion but don`t agree with them all. 
  I shoot big feathers because i am a hunter. I don`t have to fiddle with my bow much and can shoot a lot of different bows with the same arrows. I have found what works with the pounds I shoot and other then changing point weight they will shoot the same from any bow I intend on hunting with. The big feathers help. I shoot 5.5" feathers. They shoot in the rain, they shoot big broadheads and they help make up for my crappy release.
  I enjoy having fun and shooting long shots at 3d shoots but would rather shoot hunting range "tight" ones. But I am not big on "scores" and won`t cry if I miss. I do not like to miss real critters and actually seldom do because I am very selective on shots. The last few years I have been extending my range a bit but my shots seem to still be close. I do feel a bit more confidence due to practicing at long range.
   I thank the Good Lord for every day I breath and days afield are icing on the cake. I feel no remorse when I kill a critter because I fully believe thats why they are here. Arise,Kill and eat. 
  If we was supposed to eat green stuff all the time we would be walking around on split hooves.
    I take my time outdoors very very serious and a "casual" hunter would never understand my feelings or thoughts on hunting. I have found that a lot of the internet "experts" that throw out advise when questions come up actually with few exceptions know very little and have killed less critters in their life than most hardcore tradHUNTERS have in a season. 
 An " expert" on another site is telling folks how the Rage Expandable is his choice of broadhead from a 47 pounds trad bow.They work great for him and he thinks they are the best thing since sliced bread. ..He`s killed 6 deer. My Wifes killed that many with her car. Don`t mean I`m gonna hunt with it. 
  I would like to appreciate all the GON group for being civil and all around great folks. At one time I was a big into some other trad sites but have grown sick of them. Mainly my wife sez because I`m not a sheep.lol.RC


----------



## Todd Cook (Aug 11, 2014)

I do like this site. I'm glad we can talk about ideas and keep it civil.


----------



## Hunter454 (Aug 12, 2014)

Todd Cook said:


> I do like this site. I'm glad we can talk about ideas and keep it civil.



Me too, my little rookie butt can get on here and ask dumb questions and nobody calls me stupid... on the forum lol


----------



## ddauler (Aug 12, 2014)

It's an honor to be in basic agreement with Robert Carter years of field experience can NOT be attained by reading the internet or books they are simply a launching point. The talk is cheap we need to lead by example thank to all for keeping this conversaion civil. Great topic yet hard to discuss publicly Todd.


----------

