# Abortion percentages



## GeauxLSU (Jan 11, 2005)

I'm putting this here so it hopefull will NOT turn into a debate!  We've done it.  
The only reason I'm doing this is so someone here who may be more familiar with the statistics can verify or correct this. I just read a statistic, that says today, in the United States, fully ONE out of EVERY FOUR pregnancies (that is NOT a type-o, yes 25%, one in four) ends in abortion!  Can that be true?!?!?!  
God help us all....   
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## Trizey (Jan 11, 2005)

Sounds like more prayer is needed!


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## QuakerBoy (Jan 11, 2005)

Maybe we should give em a choice

























if they truly don't want the baby....once it's born we can kill them (the parent)


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## Mechanicaldawg (Jan 11, 2005)

Phil,

It is true.

4,000 babies every day the sun rises are snuffed out.


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## Craig Knight (Jan 11, 2005)

rpaul11 said:
			
		

> Maybe we should give em a choice
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## GeauxLSU (Jan 11, 2005)

*One in four... true*

That is amazing.  For every three kids you see walking around there was one who was murdered.  Unreal....     
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## PWalls (Jan 12, 2005)

Sad.


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## Meriwether Mike (Jan 12, 2005)

We will all get to stand before God one day and answer to why we let this happen. If it was not for Gods grace and mercy we would be in trouble.


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## dave (Jan 12, 2005)

*I read an article in the*

AJC at the doctors office (I wouldn't subscribe to that rag) that had an article stating "More abortions than live births in Atlanta every year since 1989." THINK ABOUT THAT ONE FOR A FEW MINUTES.


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## GeauxLSU (Jan 12, 2005)

dave said:
			
		

> AJC at the doctors office (I wouldn't subscribe to that rag) that had an article stating "More abortions than live births in Atlanta every year since 1989." THINK ABOUT THAT ONE FOR A FEW MINUTES.


Oh my God!  I can not believe THAT!            
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## HT2 (Jan 12, 2005)

*Jimbo......*



			
				Bowbender said:
			
		

> they need to shoot the person that murders a baby, all of the ones involved.
> So sad to even think about it........



I couldn't agree more......

Just to think of doin' such an act, makes my blood boil!!!!!!!!


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## hpostelle (Jan 13, 2005)

This Sunday is Sanctity of Life Sunday. Every SBC Church in the US should be praying for the person, the unborn child and the doctor that commits this terrible act. I believe that God will judge America for the actions of the people. We as Christians can no longer stand by the wayside. The only way for things to change is for hearts to change.


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## Keith48 (Jan 13, 2005)

I wonder if we would be having a debate on Social Security reform if those 30 million babies that have been murdered were alive and contributing to our society today...:


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## jay sullivent (Jan 14, 2005)

the world will someday be so populated there will be no place to hunt, all the water will be polluted, and we will all be wallowing in our ownn filth because there will be no population control.  we are living longer and generating more trash and disease and pollutants everyday. we are the worst things that ever happened to this planet. we need abortion. why not take you religous agendas elsewhere. nature is god!!


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## GeauxLSU (Jan 14, 2005)

jay sullivent said:
			
		

> why not take you religous agendas elsewhere.


You mean other than the Spiritual Support Forum?  
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## jay sullivent (Jan 14, 2005)

spiritual support! yes, who are you providing spiritual support to by expressing your disapproval of abortion? and what the heck does that have to do with hunting?!


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## feathersnantlers (Jan 14, 2005)

*Hey Jay grow up!*

Go, put this here in the spritiual forum. Not the political forum. If you don't like it don't read it. 

Did you have children or plan on having children? If so, then I believe your  statement to be an oxymoron.  

Why don't you see how many Woody member's believe in Pantheism. I doubt it's many. 

Abortion is murder, not a right.


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## GeauxLSU (Jan 14, 2005)

GeauxLSU said:
			
		

> I'm putting this here so it hopefully will NOT turn into a debate!


Thanks Jay.  
I did it out of RESPECT for those like yourself who choose to AGREE with abortion.  They tend to not visit this forum.  We have been round and round with this topic over the years here.  It caused a ill will amongst some members.  So, due to that and other similar topics (general scripture discussion for example) we INTENTIONALLY set THIS  forum up a while back for those wanting to discuss religious topics and those just wanting to perhaps quietly read (hence the title of the forum).  Though your antagonism is acknowledged, please realize you are not  helping your cause (if there is one to further).  I'll gladly take all the grief you want to give me via eMails or PMs.  They're both open.  But what say we save everyone else the heartache?  
I SINCERELY hope that GOD blesses you!  (Since He doesn't exist to you, no need for any offense to be taken.)
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## jay sullivent (Jan 14, 2005)

call it what you want and i definately will not clic onto the spiritual support forum anymore. i do have a little boy that is the light of my life. we decided to have him when we were ready and he has 2 parents who love him and will always take care of him. not all children are as lucky as him and to me, if a child is not born yet it is not murder. if it is, evry time someone masturbates in the shower they are killing a million or so babies.


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## GeauxLSU (Jan 14, 2005)

jay sullivent said:
			
		

> call it what you want and i definately will not clic onto the spiritual support forum anymore.


That's ashame.  Best of luck.    
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## Madsnooker (Jan 14, 2005)

Jay,

Even though I know you won't appreciate it I will pray for you and your family.

Life is but a vapor and there will be a day either before you die or (and I hope not) after that that you will be a believer in God.


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## GeauxLSU (Jan 14, 2005)

*If I may...*

... hopefully something productive can actually come out of this.  
I've often wondered this.  Why is abortion considered a 'religious' issue?  I mean I put this topic in this forum to avoid conflict which clearly shows I have also fallen into this sterotyping.  Strange thing though, it is not a 'religious' issue for me.  I suppose it is, to the degree you tie it to the 10 commandments, but I feel fairly certain that the vast majority of those who claim to be non-religious also agree that murder is not 'right'.  Obviously the debate always centers around whether or not abortion is murder.  So if that is the only (or main) question, then why is it constantly touted as a religious (and generlly 'right wing') issue and not simply a biological/physiological one?  Is it because biologically, pro-choice advocates can't get around that 'beating heart' so they resort to trying to reduce it to something they HOPE will seem illogical (religion)?  Or is it something else?  
I've always found that odd...  : 
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## jay sullivent (Jan 14, 2005)

well , here i am in the spiritual forum again. geaux, you started the thread in the spiritual forum. now i don't understand. if it's not religious, why didn't you start in in the open forum?


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## GeauxLSU (Jan 14, 2005)

jay sullivent said:
			
		

> well , here i am in the spiritual forum again. geaux, you started the thread in the spiritual forum. now i don't understand. if it's not religious, why didn't you start in in the open forum?


as stated, because I wanted to avoid controversy.  The folks that frequently visit (or at least respond) in this forum GENERALLY speaking, consider themselves religious AND pro-life.  I don't know why that is.  I want to believe, even those who consider themselves non-religious have the same respect for human life.  Like I said, this to me is as much a biological issue as a religious issue but I GUARANTEE you, if I put it in the 'open' forum for example and try and discuss the biological implications, it will IMMEDIATELY become a religious discussion.   : 
Folks here (THIS forum) generally speaking again, often are able to have distinct conversatoins, meaning, separate secular and religious issues.  (counter-intuitive I know, but that's my experience.)
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## jay sullivent (Jan 14, 2005)

you can't murder someone that hasn't been born yet! and if you believe in spirits surely you don't believe that the spirit dies with the fetus.  it's only flesh and blood. i apologize for being so argumentative but i can't change what i believe. no more religious discussions for me......must....resist!!!


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## Mechanicaldawg (Jan 14, 2005)

jay sullivent said:
			
		

> spiritual support! yes, who are you providing spiritual support to by expressing your disapproval of abortion? and what the heck does that have to do with hunting?!



To answer this question Jay, we are in support of the 50,000,000 plus innocent lives that were snuffed out in this country since the invention of Roe v Wade and the 50,000,000 innocent lives that will literally be flushed down with the sewage over the next few years if Roe v Wade is not over turned.

Babies can't speak for themselves so we choose to support them.


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## PWalls (Jan 14, 2005)

You can't murder someone that hasn't been born yet?

Wow, do you honestly believe that? According to that logic, then a baby that is in her mother's womb and is 8 months and 30 days old is not alive? The mother could stick a coathanger up there, kill the baby, abort it and then she is not guilty of murder?

There is no logical date in your argument for when a fetus is alive or not. All the dates set in the abortion clinics are based on safety for the mother on when to abort or not. It has nothing to do with the baby. 

Since there is no scientific evidence of when a baby is "alive", I choose to believe my God who says that we are alive at conception.

Sorry sir, abortion is murder.


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## GeauxLSU (Jan 14, 2005)

jay sullivent said:
			
		

> you can't murder someone that hasn't been born yet! and if you believe in spirits surely you don't believe that the spirit dies with the fetus.  it's only flesh and blood. i apologize for being so argumentative but i can't change what i believe. no more religious discussions for me......must....resist!!!


Jay,
That right there is the basic belief difference.  You (apparently) believe for some reason there is something 'magic' about full term delivery.  I saw my son and his heart beat at FOUR weeks old!  There was no doubt in my mind that he was alive and well.  I saw him many times more along my wife's pregnancy and his growth.  All along, he was very clearly human, moving, responding to stimulus, etc... just like you and I and just like he was one second after he was 'born'.   At that very moment, my 'stance on abortion'  was clarified.  It's been cemented further by countelss other personal experiences not the least of which was a co-worker's wife giving birth at 22 weeks to what is now their beautiful healthy daughter.  When I think that his daughter could have legally been murdered by them, just as well as delivered, it makes absolutely no logical sense to me.  Perhaps you can explain why a fetus, who does not have the 'sense' to force a premature birth and save it's own life can be murdered?  The fact that some fetuses stay in the womb different times is purely random.  Why does the governement pick a particular day/week of pregnancy to say, "OK, if they don't make it to this arbitrary day, you can murder them."  Why if a husband kills his pregnant wife he is charged with TWO counts of first degree murder but if that same husband drives her to an abortion clinic, well then they are exercising "birth control"?  THESE are NON-RELIGIOUS issues I'd like someone to help me understand.  
I don't need explanation of the religious issues.  They are very very clear, and heartbreaking, to me.  

Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## feathersnantlers (Jan 14, 2005)

*Been here a lot longer then you, newbie and will stay!*

Jay I've been a member at Woody's since it started. Nice to see you could make it to the fire. We have had thoughtful conversation long before you came along and will contuinue to so long after your gone. 

If you wanting hunting only. Then read only the hunting forum's. However, I must say I have seen where you posted in the fishing forum. So that leads to believe your not all about hunting. 

If you don't like somebody's belief's that's fine. But don't berate us b/c we believe in life at conception not birth. 

I pray your wife never has a mis-carriage. If she does try telling her that baby wasn't alive and see how long you 2 stay married. 

My wife has had 2 natural miscarriages. And she thinks of those children every Mother's Day. 

Good luck with your life after death cause elmoelmoelmoelmo is very hot. I will pray for your soul.


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## Keith48 (Jan 14, 2005)

jay sullivent said:
			
		

> if a child is not born yet it is not murder. if it is, evry time someone masturbates in the shower they are killing a million or so babies.


Sounds like you are the one with the problem. Some of us can control ourselves.

So you mean to tell me that when your son was kicking and moving around in his mother's belly that you thought that it was not a living creature? How absurd! I feel sorry for him if you think no higher of him than that!

And even just this week a new medical report is out that says that babies DO FEEL THE PAIN OF BEING MURDERED IN THE WOMB. They feel it every time an object is thrust into their body to rip them apart. Do you think they feel any less pain one minute before they are born than one minute after? A thinking person certainly would not.


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## jay sullivent (Jan 14, 2005)

i understand what you guys are saying and i'm sorry for stirring up emotions and discounting all of your religious beliefs. i too watch my son on ultrasound while he was growing in my wifes womb. of couse he was alive and i hate the thought of something happening to him.i don't know why i get upset when anti abortionists spaek out because i would NEVER do that to one of my own children. when i was in high school i got a girl pregnant and she aborted the baby and it upset me very much. i had no say so in the matter and didn't even know about it until after it happened. i just think it is a necessary evil. for other people. it may be wrong to think that way. i know that children that are born out of wedlok or were concieved by accident are certainly less fortunate and often are born into problem situations but i guess that is better than not being born at all. i often think about our planet and how we destroy it and pollute it and what will happen to it when there are just plain to many people. don't you guys think about that? preventing pregnancy is of course a better solution. i have known a lot of young women that have had abortions, some that felt pressured to do so by parents or boyfriends or whatever and they always hold a lot of pain mentally because of this. tell you the truth i really don't know what to think about it, when i REALLY think about it. like i said, a necessary evil is what i feel.


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## Chuck Martin (Jan 14, 2005)

*Jay*

Bro............wow, your last post was 180 from where you started. I can feel that you're alittle confused and unsure on what you totally believe or where you stand. A few points if I may.........it's not about "religion" it's about "relationship". See religion is of mans doing, relationship is the Fathers doing. Religion is nothing more than rules and regulations that man has thrown on man in Gods name. Relationship is about love, it's about the love between man and his God that created and provides for him. Relationship is about how God loves us even in our confused sinful state while we are in this dimension know as humanity. Relationship is about watching the ultrasound and knowing that the moving still developing beating heart forming child in the mothers womb is a gift from God. Relationship is watching that gift from God grow. Relationship is the emotional healing and forgiveness to those girls and women who have had abortiond and those that prompted and preformed them when they ask the Father for it. Relationship is about love........loving your enemies as well as your friends. 

Abortion is a very emotionally charged issue to us humans just like it is for the Father. And as with any strongly contested debate tempers flair and we say things out of reaction rather than response. Bro, I'm trying to respond rather than react. I agree that the earth is overpopulated and our natural resorces are dwindling and we are destorying it as well. The reasons are numerious but each reason is in direct conflict with the charge that God gave to man as stweards of this domain and as a result of a sinfull influnce from satan. You see one sin does not justify another sin. Only by pouring our hearts out to God in prayer and crying out to Him can things change. God says in His Word, " My ways are not your ways, neither are My thoughts your thoughts". I don't pretend to know why everything happens the way it does.......but I know that God is soviren. I know that He calls for ALL believers to love each other as well as non-believers.........that's the Relationship that is spoken of throughout the bible.

Religion is about man judging man........I'm not judging you. If you would like I would be happy to meet with you, we're not far apart, and talk with you face to face about this topic or any other questions that you may have about God, relationship, what the Bible truely says and how much the Father loves you because He created you for a spefic purpose.........and no one else on earth can fullfill the destiny that you are called to. My cell number is 678-794-8595, I'll meet with you 24/7/365. I am truely sorry for the way that you are feeling and for some of the comments directed your way...........I can tell you, even though we're Believers.......we're still human. I pray that we all remember that.


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## GeauxLSU (Jan 14, 2005)

Jay,
I sort of figured from your earlier post you had a personal experience with abortion.  But of course, given the very first post in this thread (one in four babies are aborted), it stands to reason that most people either have direct or indirect experience with it (whether they know it or not).   Your girlfriend making that decision independent of you, was unfortunately, just that, INDEPENDENT of you.  Yes you created that life, but you did not have a say in terminated it.  Incredibly sad but played out untold times daily in this country.  None of us we at our wisest in high school.  Looking back, only by the grace of God did I even make it through college.  
Here is what separate HUMANS from others.  The fact that we do THINK about things and their consequences even if they don't directly effect us.  Earlier in this thread you stated you "can't" change what you believe.  I suspected that was not true.  Not that you have changed anything and not that you will, but the sheer act of THINKING about things and REthinking about them, is what separates us from the animals.   There was a great saying I once heard that went something like this, "If you haven't change your opinion on at least one MAJOR belief in your life in the last five years, check your pulse."   
Please know that dispite the tone of some of these post (and I ALMOST deleted this thread), the people responding so passionately are not putting your beliefs down out of hate or anger or anything directed at YOU, it is out of sheer desperation, anxiety and sorrow for what happens thousands of times every single day to babies in this, supposedly 'civilized' country.  
Regarding overpopulation, I am a BIG believer in zero-population growth.  I'll save you from searching all my inane posts to say I think we have some very similar thougths on that.  Abortion however, should be no where on the list of solutions for that problem, anymore that should be murdering everyone over the age of 70.  This is 2005 for heaven's sake.  How many different methods are there to prevent the conception of human life?  Countless.  For adults to act irresponsibly and ignore all the very simple things to simply avoid conception and wait to murder a baby in the name of 'elective birth control' is so bizarre and barbaric that I feel certain one day the practice will be looked upon for what it truly is.  This is another case of peole who refuse to take responsibility for their actions wanting the government to help them out.  The worst case granted, but one of many examples.  This government has shamefully once again obliged them.  
If even all that fails (the myriad methods of pre-conception birth control), do a little bit of research on the number of childess couples DESPERATELY (and trust me when I say DESPERATELY) waiting to adopt infants.  The wait in the United States is two to SEVEN YEARS!      I'd venture to say the combination of common sense responsibility and either prior (preconception birth control) or after (putting children up to loving adoptive parents, and another child would never ever ever have to be murdered.  
The basic thing is so simple and the alternative is so horrific that's it just seems illogical.  Hence the frustration and desperation you sense in this thread.  
They are babies, they are human life, and we let them be killed.  Not 'die' mind you, but killed and VIOLENTLY.    
Thanks for your post and your willingness to admit it is a subject of such grave importance at the very least, it warrants your consideration.  
Take care.
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## jay sullivent (Jan 14, 2005)

mr. martin, i appreciate your willingness to talk and meet with me, and Phil , i hate to admit i'm starting to agree with you. i guess i'm just sort of "anti christian" mainly from having it forced upon me most of my life. and secondly, i have a problem with the whole creation concept. i definately do not want to discuss this!!!! no hard feelings and although i'm not christian i respect you're beliefs. that's all i have to say about that.


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## Chuck Martin (Jan 14, 2005)

*Jay*

It's an open invitation Bro...................


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## GeauxLSU (Jan 14, 2005)

jay sullivent said:
			
		

> mr. martin, i appreciate your willingness to talk and meet with me, and Phil , i hate to admit i'm starting to agree with you. i guess i'm just sort of "anti christian" mainly from having it forced upon me most of my life. and secondly, i have a problem with the whole creation concept. i definately do not want to discuss this!!!! no hard feelings and although i'm not christian i respect you're beliefs. that's all i have to say about that.


Jay,
Glad you are able to separate your bad experience(s) with presumably organized religion from this subject (abortion) and evaluate it on it's own (de)merits.  Lots of folks get turned off to religion for a variety of reasons but almost all of them are related to PEOPLE, not God.  Hard truth is we are all mistake prone despite our best intentions.  We are only human afterall.  Whoever pushed you away, probably (hopefully) had some really good intentions at heart but more than likely some less than really good methods.  It's ashame, but you are certainly not alone in that particular journey.   It is sadly very very common.  Don't want to minimize whatever it was you had to endure, but try and not let bad experiences ruin the Truth for you.  It's been a long week but the best analogy I can come with is going to a GREAT movie and having someone talk to you the whole time and ruining the movie and you leaving saying "that movie was awful".  Obviously, the movie was not awful but the 'noise' sure was.  Human intervention into God's work and Truth is very very often 'noise'.  A  religious person would tell you there are other forces at work for very clear reasons in those situations.    
That 'movie' (obviously I'm talking about an individual belief in God) very well may be the greatest thing you've ever seen.  Ignore/remove yourself from the noise, and if I may humbly suggest,  try and go see that movie again... (at the feature of YOUR choosing) you have absolutely nothing to lose and if nothing else, you may just get more comfortable with your current beliefs.  Solidifying what you believe in is never bad.  
Finally my friend, who said I believe in "Creation".  I'm pretty sure what you are terming "Creation" I don't believe in either.  See, you just never know....   
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## No. GA. Mt. Man (Jan 15, 2005)

*Abortion*

It blows my mind that a woman can legaly kill her baby through abortion but if she and the baby are murdered they can get the murderer for double murder ( ask Scott Peterson). The only thing I can come up with people think it's alright to kill their babys voluntarly but it's murder if it's involuntarly. Life begins at conception like science taught before roe vs wade. A fetus is not only flesh and blood IT HAS A HEART WHEN YOU ABORT IT THE HEART STOPS BEATING AND IT DIES, CASE CLOSED.


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