# Sincere Q on when a Believer is to ask 'Forgiveness.'



## RegularJoe

i have an authentic question as a true Believer 
(for clarity/confirmation - Some time years ago i 100% accepted Christ thru the Holy Spirit as my only Salvation while acknowledging Him as the only Son of God) 
about Forgiveness. 
My concern with asking the below Q is that it might stir up some heated discussion ... in which case i respectfully request that it be immediately deleted?
i am posting this Q fully in the context of Ronnie T's sticky-fied  post about "Reminder Concerning this Forum" he states, "It is better to be ignorant and teachable than arrogant and enlightened." 
Yup... and i will be less ignorant cause i _am_ teachable ... the very reason for placing this Q before y'all. 
When i accepted Christ, i accepted that He died for all my sins .... past, present and future, as well as, sins of which i was, am & will be aware, along with sins past, present and future that of which i have had/have/will have no awareness, at least as long as i am kicking around as the silly mortal that i am.
So .... my Q is when i become aware of something sinful that i have done at this time (having _already_ accepted that Christ died for ALL my sins) then how come i am supposed to ask Him for forgiveness all over again.  
i do see that i am to be thankful for Him having taken on my stupid sin + VERY much want to thank Him for having already paid for that very sin following His crucifixion; however, i can not find anywhere in The Bible that it tells me to ask for forgiveness a second time.
Even 'The Lord's Prayer' was instruction to the Apostles _before_ He had taken on the sins of the Apostles and thus it just makes sense that one should have asked for forgiveness _prior_ to His crucifixion.
- Many thanks y'all.


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## 1gr8bldr

hmmmm, I'm at a loss. Interesting question. I'm usually pondering doctrinal aspects of scripture. I look forward to the response to ponder over


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## gordon 2

And the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick. The Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power to prevail.

James 5:16

https://dailyverses.net/confession


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## gordon 2

1gr8bldr said:


> hmmmm, I'm at a loss. Interesting question. I'm usually pondering doctrinal aspects of scripture. I look forward to the response to ponder over




What this gentle believer is asking is a doctrinal question. ( Wait for it, it should become plain in a bit).

  As a primer I offer this: Did Jesus take onto himself our individual sins by his death on the cross ( all or in part, those in the past and those committed in the future) . Not all of Christianity is agreed as to doctrine of what was accomplished on the cross...

Joe's question is an interesting one because it challenges a doctrine that would state that Jesus' death on the cross paid the price for all our sins. If this is true, there should be no need to confess a sin after one declares Jesus Lord. Yet, James states we are to confess our sins after we are believers. So....? So... what could possibly be the meanings of " Jesus died for the sins of the world"? What is the correct doctrine? Believers sin after they become believers-- this we know. Are sins forgiven automatically as they come up in the life a believer because of the Cross? Yet we know sin interferes in the sanctification of a believer?

https://bible.org/article/atonement-christ


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## Artfuldodger

It's not that your salvation is based on repenting of every sin. You did this once when you believed. You realized and repented. You changed your heart. You changed your way of believing.

Related to your question is why pray? Therefore why not pray and continue to ask for forgiveness? I look at it as like continued thankfulness. I think it keeps us aware. God already knows. So maybe confessing our sins keeps us aware and if we confess, it shows remorse and commitment to trying to live a better life.

Salvation isn't an excuse to sin but it is a payment for all of our sins, past, present, and future.

It's just one of those things God wants us to do like praying. I don't look at either as a salvation requirement but perhaps something God requires to help us instead of him. If you are in constant communication in a relationship it seems to make the relationship stronger.

Salvation requirement? No
Relationship communication requirement? Yes


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## SemperFiDawg

I will say this and let y’all chew on it.  Repentance either upon salvation or afterward is evidence of a contrite heart.  You don’t repent again to be forgiven again.  You repent because your heart is grieved.  In the same way we love the sinner because Christ love us not because he commanded it.  We forgive others because we were forgiven, not because it’s expected.  In short, it’s a response of a changed heart.  Hope this helps.


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## 1gr8bldr

gordon 2 said:


> What this gentle believer is asking is a doctrinal question. ( Wait for it, it should become plain in a bit).
> 
> As a primer I offer this: Did Jesus take onto himself our individual sins by his death on the cross ( all or in part, those in the past and those committed in the future) . Not all of Christianity is agreed as to doctrine of what was accomplished on the cross...
> 
> Joe's question is an interesting one because it challenges a doctrine that would state that Jesus' death on the cross paid the price for all our sins. If this is true, there should be no need to confess a sin after one declares Jesus Lord. Yet, James states we are to confess our sins after we are believers. So....? So... what could possibly be the meanings of " Jesus died for the sins of the world"? What is the correct doctrine? Believers sin after they become believers-- this we know. Are sins forgiven automatically as they come up in the life a believer because of the Cross? Yet we know sin interferes in the sanctification of a believer?
> 
> https://bible.org/article/atonement-christ


I suppose I may be seeing "sin" differently. Because I don't expect I will need to repent of stealing or the like. I see it more as "short comings", where I know that I did not treat someone as I would want to be treated. We see it every day, someone giving coats to the homeless. That's not "Christian" that pleases Christ. Even the secular do this. However, the risk of taking someone in your home is great. I struggle with this type of thing. So, doctrine wise, I have a mediator. We should take off our Christian hats and put on the hat of a Christian who is addicted to drugs. Often times as Christians we can't relate to issues called sin. But there are those whom are struggling who are begging for deliverance from drugs and can't seem to find the path to freedom. I guess that is what was meant "you are a slave to whatever has mastered you"


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## 1gr8bldr

Jesus did pay the price "once in for all" not meaning all are forgiven. But once, final. It is not required to get resaved if one sins, however, whether they ask forgiveness each sin or not, is not  up to me but for their conscience. I do think that the word sin is broad with varying degrees.


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## Artfuldodger

I'm thinking about a Christian who later becomes a drunkard. Maybe he was a drunkard when he was saved. Anyway he is having trouble giving up the sauce. He tries but even with God's help and AA meetings he still sins. He knows his drinking is wrong deep down within his heart. He still prays and ask for forgiveness. One day he may overcome. Maybe he will die before he overcomes his sin. 
Yet he still ask for forgiveness. He still prays. It could be booze. It could be porn. It could be gambling. It could be opiates. It could be jogging or fishing.


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## 1gr8bldr

I realize that this is not the case of the OP, however  good conversation. I have observed believers whom struggled in faith, as if they may not have followed the proper sequence, or jumped through the hoop correctly, or possibly it did not "take" with them. Preachers often encourage this mentality as if they wish to make sure everybody got saved, make sure it was "good", as if they may need to redo it. I cringe when I see it. Did Paul ever  try to tear down someone's faith for a redo? No, He encouraged them to stand strong. Essentially for those whom consider a redo, your essentially saying that the first time on the cross was not enough, was not once in for all, that you want him to come do it over again for you, crucifying the son of God again and again. Shame on the preachers whom encourage redo's instead of stronger faith


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## Spineyman

SemperFiDawg said:


> I will say this and let y’all chew on it.  Repentance either upon salvation or afterward is evidence of a contrite heart.  You don’t repent again to be forgiven again.  You repent because your heart is grieved.  In the same way we love the sinner because Christ love us not because he commanded it.  We forgive others because we were forgiven, not because it’s expected.  In short, it’s a response of a changed heart.  Hope this helps.



You are correct and to expound on this even farther. Because asking a Holy God to forgive an unholy thing takes humility and obedience. The Bible clearly states that He meaning God give grace to the humble but resists the proud. This too is an act of the heart. Micah 6:8, He has shown you o man what is good, and what does the Lord require of you. But to do justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God! Humility will keep you on your knees and show you just who God really is!


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## barryl

1 John 1:4-10 KJ AV Believers "fellowship" with God


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## RegularJoe

gordon 2 said:


> And the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick. The Lord will raise him up. *If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.** 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power to prevail.
> 
> James 5:16
> 
> https://dailyverses.net/confession



*Wow ... Many thanks to all who have offered me your insights from my OP.* 

Gordon - Thanks specifically with regard to ...
*1.*  Your above James 5:13 thru 16.  I have been not been 'seeing' that * Scripture and it is certainly relevant to my Q.    
Importantly and clearly, those Words are directed to 'Believers,' in that in 5:7, 5:12 and 5:19 the author addresses his readers as "Brothers."
*2.*  Your above Link is wonderfully rich with content ... I have printed it all out and it will take me several days to absorb and properly think it all through with the care the content deserves.


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## gordon 2

RegularJoe said:


> *Wow ... Many thanks to all who have offered me your insights from my OP.*
> 
> Gordon - Thanks specifically with regard to ...
> *1.*  Your above James 5:13 thru 16.  I have been not been 'seeing' that * Scripture and it is certainly relevant to my Q.
> Importantly and clearly, those Words are directed to 'Believers,' in that in 5:7, 5:12 and 5:19 the author addresses his readers as "Brothers."
> *2.*  Your above Link is wonderfully rich with content ... I have printed it all out and it will take me several days to absorb and properly think it all through with the care the content deserves.



You are most welcome bros. Remember to spend time with Jesus in your own way as you study bros.  and the Holy Spirit will surely help you. GBU


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## hobbs27

Romans 8:1 So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus.


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## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> Romans 8:1 So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus.



In context it means that there is no condemnation due original sin maybe--since that cause and effect of that  ancient sin has been blotted out in the believer. It does not mean that sin has no direct or side effects in the life of a believer who sins. ?


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## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> In context it means that there is no condemnation due original sin maybe--since that cause and effect of that  ancient sin has been blotted out in the believer. It does not mean that sin has no direct or side effects in the life of a believer who sins. ?




let us continue... 

2 And because you belong to him, the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death. 3 The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin’s control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins. 4 He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit


Is this original sin in context or sin by walking in the flesh?


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## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> let us continue...
> 
> 2 And because you belong to him, the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death. 3 The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin’s control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins. 4 He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit
> 
> 
> Is this original sin in context or sin by walking in the flesh?



 Sinful nature due original sin in my view.

 Romans 6 ...."that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin."

I understand context here to be original sin.


12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

"

We confess this sin which we let reign in our mortal bodies....etc...


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## Artfuldodger

There was a time my heart was in turmoil over the apparent contradiction between Paul and James. I was to the point of giving up on Paul as being enlightened.
I eventually worked my way through it. It might be something a new person in Christ has to reconcile themselves.


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## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> Sinful nature due original sin in my view.



Then.. Adams sin could not possibly have resulted in physical death could it?  Since being in Christ there is no condemnation of that original sin. 
The condemnation being death.. If it were physical death then Paul would still be with us,  wouldn't he?


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## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> Then.. Adams sin could not possibly have resulted in physical death could it?  Since being in Christ there is no condemnation of that original sin.
> The condemnation being death.. If it were physical death then Paul would still be with us,  wouldn't he?



Nope. That's not how I read it. The world is not cleansed of the effect of the curse and our bodies are still part of it...-- but spiritually we are back to one-on-one communion with God ---as we are freed from the curse "of being  the slaves of sin due original sin" spiritually. 

When Jesus  returns the whole kit and kaboodle will be rewired... Our vine is still growing--growning...  until that great day comes.

Your so funny my brother.


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## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> Nope. That's not how I read it. The world is not cleansed of the effect of the curse our bodies are still part of it...-- but spiritually we are back to one-on-one communion with God ---as we are freed from the curse spiritually.
> 
> When Jesus  returns the whole kit and kaboodle will be rewired... Our vine is still growing--growning...
> 
> Your so funny my brother.





2 And because you belong to him, the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death.

I'll just leave this here with no questions... To those that say I'm crazy... Read it.  Good night bros.


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## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> 2 And because you belong to him, the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death.
> 
> I'll just leave this here with no questions... To those that say I'm crazy... Read it.  Good night bros.



It( the power)  has freed you from it(sin), but you can still entertain it (sin). Freedom has its responsibilities that some former prisoners find overwhelming?

I don't think your crazy at all. Your just one of those well balanced geniuses of our generation.  Or should that be the other way around...  Good night... I guess there will be no negotiating a deal tonight.

 1 John 4-10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.


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## Artfuldodger

gordon 2 said:


> 1 John 4-10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.



In a nutshell, 1 John 4-10 is the deal.

Here in Romans 11:5-6 is Paul explaining the deal;

"In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace."


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## matt79brown

If it's bothering you, then I'd take it to the Lord. I'd also study 1st John chapters 1&2. It helped me on this subject.


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## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> In a nutshell, 1 John 4-10 is the deal.
> 
> Here in Romans 11:5-6 is Paul explaining the deal;
> 
> "In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace."



Right. Which is why spiritually due grace we are not slaves to sin and when we do  stumble and sin we have means within the body of Christ and can confess them our sins and repent as per scripture : 



And the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick. The Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power to prevail.

James 5:16


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## Artfuldodger

gordon 2 said:


> It( the power)  has freed you from it(sin), but you can still entertain it (sin). Freedom has its responsibilities that some former prisoners find overwhelming?



What if we say that (the Power) has freed us from the wages of sin? It has freed us from the yoke of sin. The power of sin. The results of sin. The effects of sin. The  consequences of sin.

We, still being flesh, still sin. We, not only entertain sin, we perform it. Regardless of how reformed I am as a former prisoner. I can't escape it. It's in my flesh. 

Therefore even though (the Power) has payed the price and wiped my slate clean, I still ask; please forgive me of my sins as I forgive those who sin against me.

Asking God to forgive me is easy. Me forgiving others, not so easy.


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## Artfuldodger

gordon 2 said:


> Right. Which is why spiritually due grace we are not slaves to sin and when we do  stumble and sin we have means within the body of Christ and can confess them our sins and repent as per scripture :
> 
> And the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick. The Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power to prevail.
> 
> James 5:16



I think I understand now. 1 John 4:10 comes with the stipulation in James 5:16.

I'm gonna have to get with those Elders on an hourly basis. Pray for me to reach the Elders to pray for my hourly sins before I pass in the physical sense. 

I've never doubted the power of the Power. Now I see it includes the power of the Elders as well. Salvation based on man. I will consider it. Put my faith in man. Sure why not. If that is what James is saying then, man it is.


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## Artfuldodger

gordon 2 said:


> Right. Which is why spiritually due grace we are not slaves to sin and when we do  stumble and sin we have means within the body of Christ and can confess them our sins and repent as per scripture :
> 
> And the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick. The Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power to prevail.
> James 5:16



Concerning James, is the faith of the Elders and the prayers of the Elders the only way to renewed salvation caused by the effects of ones hourly sins?
The prayer offered in faith from the Elders will restore the one who is sick. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed.

What about the actions, faith, prayers, etc. of the actual individual Christian sinner? Do they count for anything? 
What is the role of the individual in this atonement process? He has to at least tell the Elders and the others he is sick. That takes some faith on his own. He has to confess his own sins in order to be healed. In order to receive  the faith of the Elders to restore his lost salvation through prayer.

Disregarding James, can this same person regain his lost salvation by asking God directly to restore his salvation by confessing his sins directly to Him?


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## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> I think I understand now. 1 John 4:10 comes with the stipulation in James 5:16.
> 
> I'm gonna have to get with those Elders on an hourly basis. Pray for me to reach the Elders to pray for my hourly sins before I pass in the physical sense.
> 
> I've never doubted the power of the Power. Now I see it includes the power of the Elders as well. Salvation based on man. I will consider it. Put my faith in man. Sure why not. If that is what James is saying then, man it is.




I don't know how you come up with "faith in man"... or perhaps I do.... as it might seem that way. As for me I do consider with great importance the Holy Spirit in man....which is why we are brothers and friends...


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## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> It( the power)  has freed you from it(sin), but you can still entertain it (sin). Freedom has its responsibilities that some former prisoners find overwhelming?
> 
> I don't think your crazy at all. Your just one of those well balanced geniuses of our generation.  Or should that be the other way around...  Good night... I guess there will be no negotiating a deal tonight.
> 
> 1 John 4-10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.




 ( The power)  has freed us from ( The power) 
of sin which leads to death. Since we have been freed from the power of sin which leads to death and there is no more condemnation for those in Christ... And the sin in context is original sin... Then physical death could have never been the death in the law of sin and death,  or Christians from that first century to today would still be physically living. 

Adam died in the day ( that day)  he took of the fruit.  He did not begin dying,  he died that day. 
By being cast out of the presence of God and losing his standing as a Son and becoming a servant..... IE No inheritance to his off spring as servants. 

It took Christ.. God's only begotten Son,  to die as a sacrifice to satisfy the law which was in place because of sin and death,  to fix what Adam broke. 

In Spirit we become Sons of God and that first century group became  co-heirs of the inheritance.. Eternal life.  IE... No more condemnation of sin... IE death.

The text clearly screams this to me.  Where is it saying otherwise?  Thanks


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## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> Concerning James, is the faith of the Elders and the prayers of the Elders the only way to renewed salvation caused by the effects of ones hourly sins?
> The prayer offered in faith from the Elders will restore the one who is sick. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed.
> 
> What about the actions, faith, prayers, etc. of the actual individual Christian sinner? Do they count for anything?
> What is the role of the individual in this atonement process? He has to at least tell the Elders and the others he is sick. That takes some faith on his own. He has to confess his own sins in order to be healed. In order to receive  the faith of the Elders to restore his lost salvation through prayer.
> 
> Disregarding James, can this same person regain his lost salvation by asking God directly to restore his salvation by confessing his sins directly to Him?




Why do you ask me...? What does scripture say? Is it possible to loose one's salvation?


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## j_seph

RegularJoe said:


> i have an authentic question as a true Believer
> (for clarity/confirmation - Some time years ago i 100% accepted Christ thru the Holy Spirit as my only Salvation while acknowledging Him as the only Son of God)
> about Forgiveness.
> My concern with asking the below Q is that it might stir up some heated discussion ... in which case i respectfully request that it be immediately deleted?
> i am posting this Q fully in the context of Ronnie T's sticky-fied  post about "Reminder Concerning this Forum" he states, "It is better to be ignorant and teachable than arrogant and enlightened."
> Yup... and i will be less ignorant cause i _am_ teachable ... the very reason for placing this Q before y'all.
> When i accepted Christ, i accepted that He died for all my sins .... past, present and future, as well as, sins of which i was, am & will be aware, along with sins past, present and future that of which i have had/have/will have no awareness, at least as long as i am kicking around as the silly mortal that i am.
> So .... my Q is when i become aware of something sinful that i have done at this time (having _already_ accepted that Christ died for ALL my sins) then how come i am supposed to ask Him for forgiveness all over again.
> i do see that i am to be thankful for Him having taken on my stupid sin + VERY much want to thank Him for having already paid for that very sin following His crucifixion; however, i can not find anywhere in The Bible that it tells me to ask for forgiveness a second time.
> Even 'The Lord's Prayer' was instruction to the Apostles _before_ He had taken on the sins of the Apostles and thus it just makes sense that one should have asked for forgiveness _prior_ to His crucifixion.
> - Many thanks y'all.



Suggest you look into confessing sins and repentance. If your child screws up you do not kick him out of the family, you still love him however they have to confess what they did or there are repercussions and apologize. To myself by asking for forgiveness I am humbling myself to admit that I have sinned, apologizing for it by asking that he forgive me. What right do I have if I sin to not seek and ask forgiveness to the one who saved my soul? It also comes with fearing the Lord. Just because we are forgiven does not mean we will not have a punishment for our sin. Maybe the confessing and asking forgiveness will save us from punishment or make it just a little less.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


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## Artfuldodger

gordon 2 said:


> Why do you ask me...? What does scripture say? Is it possible to loose one's salvation?



Let's just say one is sick(spiritually) and needs to talk to God. Can he confess directly to God through prayer for "healing?"
I understand that God gives Church people his Spirit and that is one way God heals through man. I don't discount that God works through or uses man. The Elders most definitely have the Spirit. It is the Spirit that heals.

Galatians 3:5
So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?


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## RegularJoe

Artfuldodger said:


> There was a time my heart was in turmoil over the _apparent _contradiction* between Paul and James. I was to the point of giving up on Paul as being enlightened.
> I eventually worked my way through it.


Yup, *Art*, you offer a really worthy point.
And, for me, over the years, i have found a number of matters (i.e./e.g., my OP  that i do not have to resolve to know i am Saved; _however_, where i am afforded an opportunity (this great Forum) to look into 'theology' & maybe gain a little further mortal comprehension, of course, then perhaps i can be a little stronger in my faith .... _more importantly_, that added strength moves me to maybe be a little better servant of Him < the end goal.
*Where am i going with this  ?  
Here is (finally :- ) my point ... *
With full expectation that 'on this side' there is gonna be plenty that i am simply never mortally going to understand, and when i clearly run into not seemingly being able to understand, which includes *reconciling on my own certain parts of The Book, i look to and am educated by Proverbs 3:5 ... wherein i am instructed (my paraphrase :- ) to remember to _at some point stop_, lean not on my understanding, but do lean on my trusting in The Lord with allllll my heart.   < Taking this to prayer, and hopefully then practice, frees me to move along .


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## GeorgiaBob

The Greek word, translated to English in the New Testament as, "sin" literally means, "to miss the mark" - as in an archer missing the bullseye in a competition.  We sin, whenever we fall short of God's plan for us, whenever we "miss" having a perfect relationship with God.  That's a pretty high standard, but that high standard is what God wants for us.  In today's world, it is pretty clearly IMPOSSIBLE to maintain that standard, so all of us remain sinners, sinners saved by Grace, but sinners nevertheless!

Salvation through forgiveness is a one time, one size fits all, event - AND - it is a lifetime of work.  BOTH ARE TRUE.  So if (WHEN) you sin again, it is not God who demands repeated appeals for forgiveness, it is ourselves - we who failed to keep our promise to God - who demand we confess our sins to God and seek to make it right.   

Perhaps even more important than asking God to forgive you again, is to ask the people whom you have sinned against, or harmed by your sin, to forgive you.  And just as valuable, to try and make restitution to all who were impacted by your sin.  And the opposite side of the coin is also a part of your Christian journey, to forgive those who have sinned against you. 

If all of this seems complicated, convoluted, overly detailed.  There is a short version.  Accept Jesus as Savior, live by his example, do all the good you can, try to correct your mistakes and forgive anyone you does you harm.

So, YES, even though you are saved by Grace and ALL of your sins are forgiven, go back to God in prayer, ask forgiveness for your new sins and seek God's guidance in moving forward.


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## Artfuldodger

RegularJoe said:


> Yup, *Art*, you offer a really worthy point.
> And, for me, over the years, i have found a number of matters (i.e./e.g., my OP  that i do not have to resolve to know i am Saved; _however_, where i am afforded an opportunity (this great Forum) to look into 'theology' & maybe gain a little further mortal comprehension, of course, then perhaps i can be a little stronger in my faith .... _more importantly_, that added strength moves me to maybe be a little better servant of Him < the end goal.
> *Where am i going with this  ?
> Here is (finally :- ) my point ... *
> With full expectation that 'on this side' there is gonna be plenty that i am simply never mortally going to understand, and when i clearly run into not seemingly being able to understand, which includes *reconciling on my own certain parts of The Book, i look to and am educated by Proverbs 3:5 ... wherein i am instructed (my paraphrase :- ) to remember to _at some point stop_, lean not on my understanding, but do lean on my trusting in The Lord with allllll my heart.   < Taking this to prayer, and hopefully then practice, frees me to move along .



I think that after one has resolved that he is saved, he then starts on a quest to find out what saved him. Sure he receives enough faith and knowledge to receive salvation. Beyond that he probably hasn't contemplated the deeper parts of the whole picture.  In ones love after receiving the gift, he tries to learn how to please the one who gave him his salvation.

Hopefully God understands that we are only men and doesn't hold it against us if we learn something the wrong way.


----------



## RegularJoe

j_seph said:


> Suggest you look into _confessing sins_ and _repentance_*. If your child screws up you do not kick him out of the family, you still love him however they have to confess what they did or there are repercussions and apologize.
> To myself by asking for forgiveness** I am humbling myself to admit that I have sinned, apologizing for it by asking that he forgive me. What right do I have if I sin to not seek and ask forgiveness to the one who saved my soul? It also comes with fearing the Lord. Just because we are forgiven does not mean we will not have a punishment for our sin. Maybe the confessing and asking forgiveness will save us from punishment or make it just a little less.***
> 
> 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.****



Yes, J_seph, you are certainly right; and, in doing so * i have developed the understanding to the _distinct_ differences _between_:
1. Asking for _forgiveness_ (not to mention praying/begging! for related awareness of alllll my sins ... omission and comission as well as known by me and unknown by me :- );
2. _Confessing sins_ - which serves to remind me on how beyond mortal comprehension _thankful_ i am to be for Him having taken on all my sins; & 
3. Being _repentant_.

The Q which arises by appealing to Him a _second_ time (consistent with The Bible i accepted His salvation from all my sins at the time i was accepted Him as my only means of salvation) for **forgiveness ... 
did i not accept His Promise in the _first_ place _as true_ that all my sins were forgiven? 
i DO want _to know_ of all my sins cause it thereby enables me to _confess_ my awareness, the actual sin itself (grievously of course!) + my refreshened (sp?) awareness of His having taken on that specific sin .... as well as all the others ... which in turn grows my _thankfulness_ for Him having unconditionally & marvelously done so.

Yup, certainly a wonderful *** point that is directly related to the proportionality of the dispensing of riches we are told to expect in Heaven (the concept here usually advanced, as i anticipate you have probably heard/read as well :- ), is that all of our glasses are full .... we probably just all have different size glasses.

And, in 1st John 1:9 **** _my_ personal interpretation (not suggesting it _should be_ yours, or that of others :- ) is that at the time i accepted Christ as my only means of salvation of all my sins (i confessed all my sins ... overt, convert + those those of which i will and will not as a mortal ever be even aware no matter how much i may wish to be aware) AND consistent with His promise, therein & throughout The Bible, _He right then and there forgave me_ ... in _my _humble view; 
if He hadn't i never be able to get into Heaven cause i HAVE to be sinless in the eyes of God to be accepted and it is only thru Christ's salvation that i can be so .... and God & Christ & The Holy Spirit, being omniscient, are the only 'entities' that KNOW of all the sins of which i will never mortally know.  Thus if i do not know of the sins, and if i must _confess again_ to be saved from them, i will never be saved of them cause i do not know of them for which to ask forgiveness _again_ < hence i shall never get to Heaven.


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## hobbs27

In the old covenant,  man was separated from God through sin.  God gave them the law to magnify or expose their sin, while in His absence. 

In the New Covenant,  Jesus has given us grace.  His blood covers our sin that we may now be in God's presence.  In God's presence we don't need a law of letters.. He's there with us,  to smack us up side the head if need be.... Or to hold and comfort us.  Your sin is covered with your walk in Christ. You don't need to confess to man,  you don't need to be re-saved..You just need to work out your salvation.


----------



## formula1

*re:*

Lots of good stuff on this topic.  Here are a few thoughts that came to me.

2 Cor 13
5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

Testing that leads to repentance (a turning away) is healthy for a believer!

Colossians 3:3
For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

Galatians 2
19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Most believers will spend a lifetime on this truth, trying to figure out that we are already dead!

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

The door is locked tight but believers have full access!

The very fact that a believer is convicted of sin shows that the Holy Spirit is working in you. Learn to plug into His power to overcome it!  As long as you have your flesh man you will always be in this war but victory is already yours! Fight the fight!  Overcome!

God Bless!


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## gordon 2

formula1 said:


> Lots of good stuff on this topic.  Here are a few thoughts that came to me.
> 
> 2 Cor 13
> 5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!
> 
> Testing that leads to repentance (a turning away) is healthy for a believer!
> 
> Colossians 3:3
> For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
> 
> Galatians 2
> 19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
> 
> Most believers will spend a lifetime on this truth, trying to figure out that we are already dead!
> 
> Ephesians 1
> 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.
> 
> The door is locked tight but believers have full access!
> 
> The very fact that a believer is convicted of sin shows that the Holy Spirit is working in you. Learn to plug into His power to overcome it!  As long as you have your flesh man you will always be in this war but victory is already yours! Fight the fight!  Overcome!
> 
> God Bless!



And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.+++




 Re: Regards faith and the definition of faith.

I had never looked at faith this way+++ (  from Galatians 2-19 above) that the traditional definition of faith ( trust in things hoped for) was as to the flesh and perhaps not as to the Spirit. 

In the flesh we are  still not  made whole but in the Spirit we are "  blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places"! Ephesians 1-3 above.

So our traditional and  simple definition of faith is from and for our flesh nature. Which might explain why I always felt that faith was much more than its simple definition.

 Faith  risks a change of form or nature in a person's makeup after a person's spiritual nature is changed by the grace of God through Jesus Savior which usually leaves a person without doubt that the Holy Spirit is present and active in their lives.

 Or, simply for many from  a witness of God's intimate presence in their lives, or more simply expressed (I hope) for some born again experience in the life of a believer that there is NOT A DOUBT they are re-wired spiritually to a one on one relationship with God and to the body of Christ  now present to the world as His church. 

 " Or as in my case that the " Kingdom of our Lord is more perceptible as a solid foundation than anything else said to be of solid foundation-period." And this is part of my faith, not a faith as a persuasion, not faith as something hoped for, but a faith in relationship that is  my sure witness from and of the  many "spiritual blessings in the heavenly places" Ephesians 1-3.

???? So does faith have more than one or two definitions?  By God's grace how is faith built up and is it transformed in the life of a believer?

Maybe I should start a new thread...  if all the eyes and tees are not crossed yet with the topic of this one...?


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## formula1

Gordon:

I don't know if there are multiple definitions of faith, but please consider these scriptures as bookmarks on faith in that they and everything between them are paramount.

Hebrews 11 
1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the people of old received their commendation.

Hebrews 12 
1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

In all the examples in between, man chose God who they could not see with flesh eyes over what/who they could touch and experience.  They had determined that what they could not see was more genuine, more real.  Man cannot make that leap without Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit.

If I could give an alternate definition of faith, it would be this, that faith is determined in man by the One he looks to.

So, look to "Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith"!

God has granted me an wonderful life.  I've had tough experiences, great ones and everything in between and I'm sure there are more of both to come.  I carry a reminder with me everyday, a reminder for me to 'Look to Jesus'.  It's nothing special but if I am in need, it helps me to focus on who I need.  I'll share a picture of it with you. 

May God bless you immensely!


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## Spineyman

formula1 said:


> Gordon:
> 
> I don't know if there are multiple definitions of faith, but please consider these scriptures as bookmarks on faith in that they and everything between them are paramount.
> 
> Hebrews 11
> 1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the people of old received their commendation.
> 
> Hebrews 12
> 1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
> 
> In all the examples in between, man chose God who they could not see with flesh eyes over what/who they could touch and experience.  They had determined that what they could not see was more genuine, more real.  Man cannot make that leap without Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit.
> 
> If I could give an alternate definition of faith, it would be this, that faith is determined in man by the One he looks to.
> 
> So, look to "Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith"!
> 
> God has granted me an wonderful life.  I've had tough experiences, great ones and everything in between and I'm sure there are more of both to come.  I carry a reminder with me everyday, a reminder for me to 'Look to Jesus'.  It's nothing special but if I am in need, it helps me to focus on who I need.  I'll share a picture of it with you.
> 
> May God bless you immensely!



Here is the way I see it. It is not our faith, but the object of our faith. Like may pastor says. Strong faith in a weak plank will land you in the river, but weak faith in a strong plank will get you across the river. Therefore it is not our faith but Jesus who is the object of our faith. Like you referenced earlier in Hebrews faith chapter. They believed God, so it was reckoned to them as righteousness.


----------



## formula1

Spineyman said:


> Here is the way I see it. It is not our faith, but the object of our faith. Like may pastor says. Strong faith in a weak plank will land you in the river, but weak faith in a strong plank will get you across the river. Therefore it is not our faith but Jesus who is the object of our faith. Like you referenced earlier in Hebrews faith chapter. They believed God, so it was reckoned to them as righteousness.



Yes, looking to Christ!

Faith in Christ with no plank and one can walk on water,  but seeing the waves instead will cause you to sink. I read that somewhere!!!


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## j_seph

Hebrews 10 26-27
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, [27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


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## Artfuldodger

j_seph said:


> Hebrews 10 26-27
> 26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, [27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.



I always wondered about the difference from willful sin vs accidental sin. It is after one receives the "knowledge of the truth."
Would the drunkard's sin of over drinking be considered deliberate even if he has an addiction? Couldn't he still ask for forgiveness?

If I have lust in my heart, is it wilful? What if I cheat on my income tax? I know that is wilful. Can I then ask for forgiveness? 
Did my "Sacrifice" really abandon me?

 “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

Maybe in Hebrews it has something to do with acceptable sacrifice for sin in the Levitical system. I don't know, good question. Maybe?

sacrifice vs "The Sacrifice"


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## j_seph

Bible tells us not to lust, so yes I would say that is wilful. We know not to but we do. Repent and ask forgiveness.

Guess to put into carnal terms, if I make my wife mad she is going to forgive me because she loves me however the right thing to do is for me to ask her to forgive me. I was wrong, I made a mistake and I need her forgiveness so I would ask her to forgive me. By asking her she then knows I admit to my wrongs and I do feel bad about it. If I didn't, even though she forgave me that left a stumbling block between us.

Is your God not powerful enough to overcome the drunkards addiction? He knows it is wrong so yes that is willful IMO.

_James 4:2-3 2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. 3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts._

Thought it was neat that Lust comes into the scripture here. The drunkard has not sobriety because he ask not, he may ask amiss.
My bible tells me in 
_Philippians 4:13
13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me_
If I am sincere in my heart to have my addiction removed, I believe the Lord will fill and replace that addiction with his word and his spirit that there will be no room for the addiction. 

Here is another take on forgiveness I read
"The answer is that divine forgiveness has two aspects. One is the judicial forgiveness God grants as Judge. It's the forgiveness God purchased for you by Christ's atonement for your sin. That kind of forgiveness frees you from any threat of eternal condemnation. It is the forgiveness of justification. Such pardon is immediately complete-you'll never need to seek it again.

The other is a parental forgiveness God grants as your Father. He is grieved when His children sin. The forgiveness of justification takes care of judicial guilt, but it does not nullify His fatherly displeasure over your sin. He chastens those whom He loves, for their good (Heb. 12:5-11)."
_Hebrews 12:5-11

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredCensored, and not sons.

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
_
Look at David as he testified
_Psalm 32
1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

3 When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long.

4 For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah.

5 I acknowledge my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

6 For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found: surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him.

7 Thou art my hiding place; thou shalt preserve me from trouble; thou shalt compass me about with songs of deliverance. Selah.

8 I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.

9 Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.

10 Many sorrows shall be to the wicked: but he that trusteth in the Lord, mercy shall compass him about.

11 Be glad in the Lord, and rejoice, ye righteous: and shout for joy, all ye that are upright in heart.
_


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## RegularJoe

There is a clear difference between:
1. Asking for forgiveness for a sin.
and
2. Confessing a sin.


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## Israel

RegularJoe said:


> There is a clear difference between:
> 1. Asking for forgiveness for a sin.
> and
> 2. Confessing a sin.



Are you persuaded that in one case only the fruit is identified, but that in another its root is sought to find its source?


----------



## RegularJoe

*Israel*,

Pls forgive me if I am not fully understanding your question.
Let me offer this in reply...

Your phrase "_t*he fruit is identified*_" would be, for me, having an awareness of a sin and acknowledging to Him (aka confessing***) that I know of it and recognize it as sinful.

Your phrase "_*root is sought*_" would be forgiveness requested?????

Here are my views of the degrees of definitive differences (which I am more than willing & interested in altering upon hearing the thoughts of yours and others given that we can all find such support within Scripture : ) ....

Awareness of sin (which I certainly want!), leads to
***Confession of sin, leads to
Added appreciation for Jesus having died for all (known / unknown, past / present / future, omission / co-misssion), leads to
Thanking God over and over and over again for already having Saved me from this sin, leads to
Motivation to no longer sin as such, leads to
Repentance whereby I take action to try to never re-commit the same sin.

My original post question is about ....
I see no where in this above process where I am instructed by God in The Bible to request "Forgiveness" after having Him having granting me "Forgiveness" at the instant I accepted His only Son Jesus as my Savior.... for all my sins.

*Maybe I am wrong **????????? *

Thank you Israel ~ Joe.


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## Madman

RegularJoe said:


> I see no where in this above process where I am instructed by God in The Bible to request "Forgiveness" after having Him having granting me "Forgiveness" at the instant I accepted His only Son Jesus as my Savior.... for all my sins.



Joe,

Might I offer one verse?

Matthew 6:
9 ‘Pray then in this way:

Our Father in heaven,
    hallowed be your name.
10     Your kingdom come.
    Your will be done,
        on earth as it is in heaven.
11     Give us this day our daily bread.
12     And forgive us our debts,
        as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13     And do not bring us to the time of trial,
        but rescue us from the evil one.
14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; 15 but if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

I believe Holy Scripture is ripe with the idea that we should see our sins, acknowledge or confess our sins, accept forgiveness of those sins, and progress from "perfection to perfection".


----------



## RegularJoe

Thanks Mad.
Addressed that in my Original Post (last paragraph, i.e.) ...
He was teaching the Disciples what to do
a day or so before He had taken on the sins of Believers,
hence, asking for forgiveness at that point made sense.
Is there other Scripture you'd suggest I consider?
Please help me with this .... I can not find it.
I see plenty for confessing and repenting but not for requesting forgiveness and He forgives us upon our accepting His promise that if we accept His Son as our Savior then all of our sins at that instant are forgiven
(btw, otherwise we would never likely be accepted into Heaven cause of any sins we did not know of and/or failed to request between the time of the sin and our mortal death for which we failed to ask for and receive forgiveness ... which is some of the basis for some Chrisitian groups to subscribe to purgatory - so those sins for which forgiveness was not requested may be purged?).
Many thx,
Joe.


Madman said:


> Might I offer one verse?
> Matthew 6:
> 12     And forgive us our debts,


----------



## Madman

RegularJoe said:


> Thanks Mad.
> Addressed that in my Original Post (last paragraph, i.e.) ...
> He was teaching the Disciples what to do
> a day or so before He had taken on the sins of Believers,
> hence, asking for forgiveness at that point made sense.


OK.  Let's say that is so, I am not convinced but...................




RegularJoe said:


> Is there other Scripture you'd suggest I consider?
> Please help me with this .... I can not find it.
> I see plenty for confessing and repenting but not for requesting forgiveness and He forgives us upon our accepting His promise that if we accept His Son as our Savior then all of our sins at that instant are forgiven



I am not sure I agree with this, and I know the ancient Church has never taught it. Are we "picking nits" by saying that we should confess, and repent, but not ask for forgiveness?  We see in Hebrews 10: 26,27 that the idea of eternal security and that all future sins have already been forgiven and not be held against us may not jive.

I don't see the Biblical evidence for all sins past, present, and future, being forgiven.

We do know that Christ gave the Apostles the authority to forgive sins, the implication being the need to confess and ask for forgiveness.



RegularJoe said:


> (btw, otherwise we would never likely be accepted into Heaven cause of any sins we did not know of and/or failed to request between the time of the sin and our mortal death for which we failed to ask for and receive forgiveness ... which is some of the basis for some Chrisitian groups to subscribe to purgatory - so those sins for which forgiveness was not requested may be purged?).
> Many thx,
> Joe.



Joe,
I believe this is the real problem you see and the reason for your question, unless sins, all past, present, and future are forgiven, we are all doomed, or maybe we are not.  There is an answer, a Biblical answer for this dilemma.


----------



## RegularJoe

Madman said:


> Joe,
> I believe this is the real problem you see and the reason for your question, unless sins, all past, present, and future are forgiven, we are all doomed, or maybe we are not. There is an answer, a Biblical answer for this dilemma.


Double M,
I think you are correct (i.e., what you defined above as 'the real problem') which, to me, is how come Scripture makes theological sense that all sins are forgiven at the instant one accepts Jesus as Savior (not partial Savior).  
MM, I am not saying : ) that Scripture has to make sense ... nope .... only commenting that it does 'fit.'
You also commented above that 'there is a Biblical answer?'  What is that answer?
Don't leave me hanging Brother : )))))).
Another observation you presented was 'are we picking nits?' 
For me, Sir, it is not nits. 
It actually is most important to me cause it fundamentally has to do with:
1. Did Jesus die for all my sins or not.
2. Did God promise that Jesus died for all my sins unconditionally (other than my accepting the given 100% salvation thru Jesus) or not.
3. If after accepting Jesus do I need to be sure I have asked for forgiveness for any given additional sin before I mortally die or I do not get into Heaven or not.


----------



## Madman

RegularJoe said:


> Double M,
> I think you are correct (i.e., what you defined above as 'the real problem') which, to me, is how come Scripture makes theological sense that all sins are forgiven at the instant one accepts Jesus as Savior (not partial Savior).
> MM, I am not saying : ) that Scripture has to make sense ... nope .... only commenting that it does 'fit.'
> You also commented above that 'there is a Biblical answer?'  What is that answer?
> Don't leave me hanging Brother : )))))).
> Another observation you presented was 'are we picking nits?'
> For me, Sir, it is not nits.
> It actually is most important to me cause it fundamentally has to do with:
> 1. Did Jesus die for all my sins or not.
> 2. Did God promise that Jesus died for all my sins unconditionally (other than my accepting the given 100% salvation thru Jesus) or not.
> 3. If after accepting Jesus do I need to be sure I have asked for forgiveness for any given additional sin before I mortally die or I do not get into Heaven or not.


I didn’t mean to demean the question with “nits”.   
salvation is the utmost importance.

1) Yes
2) Yes
3) Now it gets deeper and more theological.

I promised my wife I would give her my undivided attention this weekend, even though I will look in every now and then.

Please look into 2 topics,
1) mortal vs. Venial sin
2) purgatory

I have no intention of trying to make you “believe” what I believe.  I will simply ask that you see where the Church gets these beliefs.

I need to go.  Making Shrimp etouffee for my wife.  It is Lent, no flesh meat on Friday. By choice, not God’s command.
God’s peace.


----------



## RegularJoe

Madman said:


> 3) Now it gets deeper and more theological.
> Please look into 2 topics,
> 1) mortal vs. Venial sin
> 2) purgatory
> I have no intention of trying to make you “believe” what I believe.  I will simply ask that you see where the Church gets these beliefs.
> God’s peace.


Double M,
Am hoping your Friday night breakin' bread was great 
Yeah, nor am I trying to move your thinking to mine, as I think you are already aware, as well.
My guess is that your items "1) & 2)," above are in your Christian Bible, while not being in my Christian Bible ... my rendition of Christianity is what is typically referred to as "Reformed Protestant."  Perhaps other readers who are of my "ilk" : ) can help me with my Original Post Question as per my Bible...
what I am saying is that I know of no mention of either "1) or 2)" in the Protestant Bible.

While recognizing that you are not Roman Catholic, I _have_ found these topics in the Roman Catholic Catechism and there in studied them, specifically, in detail.

Regarding which Bible_ I_ subscribe to is, of course, outside this thread.  
I will add that I, personally, do adhere to the Protestant Bible after having spent years arriving at that Bible version being, for me, the correct conclusion.


----------



## Madman

RegularJoe said:


> Double M,
> Am hoping your Friday night breakin' bread was great
> Yeah, nor am I trying to move your thinking to mine, as I think you are already aware, as well.
> My guess is that your items "1) & 2)," above are in your Christian Bible, while not being in my Christian Bible ... my rendition of Christianity is what is typically referred to as "Reformed Protestant."  Perhaps other readers who are of my "ilk" : ) can help me with my Original Post Question as per my Bible...
> what I am saying is that I know of no mention of either "1) or 2)" in the Protestant Bible.
> 
> While recognizing that you are not Roman Catholic, I _have_ found these topics in the Roman Catholic Catechism and there in studied them, specifically, in detail.
> 
> Regarding which Bible_ I_ subscribe to is, of course, outside this thread.
> I will add that I, personally, do adhere to the Protestant Bible after having spent years arriving at that Bible version being, for me, the correct conclusion.


Dinner was GREAT!  Thank you!  We will have this discussion  out of “your” Bible version, which is probably the same as mine.  The Apocrypha, while originally in most early Bible versions, my group does not view as inspired, but still worthy of reading and teaching.

Good evening.


----------



## Israel

RegularJoe said:


> *Israel*,
> 
> Pls forgive me if I am not fully understanding your question.
> Let me offer this in reply...
> 
> Your phrase "_t*he fruit is identified*_" would be, for me, having an awareness of a sin and acknowledging to Him (aka confessing***) that I know of it and recognize it as sinful.
> 
> Your phrase "_*root is sought*_" would be forgiveness requested?????
> 
> Here are my views of the degrees of definitive differences (which I am more than willing & interested in altering upon hearing the thoughts of yours and others given that we can all find such support within Scripture : ) ....
> 
> Awareness of sin (which I certainly want!), leads to
> ***Confession of sin, leads to
> Added appreciation for Jesus having died for all (known / unknown, past / present / future, omission / co-misssion), leads to
> Thanking God over and over and over again for already having Saved me from this sin, leads to
> Motivation to no longer sin as such, leads to
> Repentance whereby I take action to try to never re-commit the same sin.
> 
> My original post question is about ....
> I see no where in this above process where I am instructed by God in The Bible to request "Forgiveness" after having Him having granting me "Forgiveness" at the instant I accepted His only Son Jesus as my Savior.... for all my sins.
> 
> *Maybe I am wrong **????????? *
> 
> Thank you Israel ~ Joe.



The matter of right or wrong rarely possesses me much anymore. (or at least as much as once it did) What I do acknowledge is your time and thoughtfulness in response to make your understanding clear to me.

And I appreciate it...and cannot help but be influenced by it.


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## gemcgrew

RegularJoe said:


> My original post question is about ....
> I see no where in this above process where I am instructed by God in The Bible to request "Forgiveness" after having Him having granting me "Forgiveness" at the instant I accepted His only Son Jesus as my Savior.... for all my sins.


Forgiveness of sin is not for our sake. No believer is constantly seeking forgiveness of sin.

That is the work of unbelievers.


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## RegularJoe

gemcgrew said:


> ..... No believer is constantly seeking forgiveness of sin.
> That is the work of unbelievers.


Heard.  Thanks.


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## Madman

The question comes to mind, since Christ’s responses are frequently meant to direct the questioner toward the Father, when asked in Matthew 18 how many times should I forgive?

Christ did not respond by saying all is forgiven forever, he responded by saying to forgive as many times as you as asked.

So does the Father, I direct you back to the Lord’s Prayer.

As I said, I believe the your real question is how does one enter heaven with unrepentant sin.


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## Madman

I would ask where some of these “doctrines” come from?

Biblically where do we read all sins past, present, future, are forgiven?

Where is it written that asking forgiveness is for the unbeliever?


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## Israel

I would be inclined to think in those terms that the believer has had already made known to him the "where" to _seek_ forgiveness, as it is only from the merciful Lord. So, in that sense he is not looking for/seeking what is unknown to him.

The unbeliever is still seeking to know this place if he might even know it for himself.

To the believer it is known.

To the unbeliever, at best...only as "not as yet."



Do any care to know how much this passage in the Lord's prayer can be loved?

"forgive us our trespasses/debts as we forgive others."



taking "as we"...meaning _in like manner._

(There has been made mention elsewhere of the perfection of circular reasoning)




What an incentive! If I would know God "as" my Father responding to my trespasses (would you doubt my enumerating?)...as one who responds with "think nothing of it"...all I need discover is how to exercise that...myself.

Now this is the perfection of the circularity...there's only one place this is taught! And it is not me teaching myself.

Oh! To see that place where love takes no offense! It is worth all the seeing!

And abiding!

But to whom can I look to discover what abiding looks like?

Thanks be to God He has stolen my choices of whom to see, and where to look!

In all a believer is surrounded...perfectly.

And the fullness of this joy is promised...

God does not forgive grudgingly...O! the roads I have taken...yet He still makes known the path of life!

Were we to be convinced, provoked even to consider this...

this how God gives so lavishly, hilariously, abundantly, forgives...all we need investigate is "who asked for it"..._for us!_


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## RegularJoe

Double M ~ My replies in CAPs inserted....



Madman said:


> The question comes to mind, since Christ’s responses are frequently meant to direct the questioner toward the Father, when asked in Matthew 18 how many times should I forgive?
> 
> Christ did not respond by saying all is forgiven forever, he responded by saying to forgive as many times as you as asked. THIS IS TALKING ABOUT HOW MORTALS ARE TO FORGIVE MORTALS.
> 
> So does the Father, I direct you back to the Lord’s Prayer. AS SAID IN AN EARLIER POST, THIS 'DIRECTIVE' PRECEDED JESUS' DEATH FOR MY SINS.
> 
> As I said, I believe the your real question is how does one enter heaven with unrepentant sin. CONCUR ... AND WITH THIS IN MIND, ALSO POSTED A REPLY TO AN ASSOCIATED NEXT POST OF YOURS ~ WHEREIN YOU POSIT A QUESTION FOR WHICH I AM APPRECIATIVE .... AND AM _HOPING _ ONE OF US CAN DEFINITIVELY ANSWER?


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## RegularJoe

Madman said:


> I would ask where some of these “doctrines” come from?
> 1. Biblically where do we read all sins past, present, future, are forgiven?
> 2. Where is it written that asking forgiveness is for the unbeliever?



MM -
1.  Wonderfully important question.  I see this and hear this 'doctrine' constantly in my 'Protestant Reformed' circles, _yet_ I have _yet_ to knowingly _see_ the specific supporting Scripture.  If it does or does not exist, it is probably going to take me a day or 3 to get back.  Meanwhile, I am hopeful another more Scripture knowledgeable person than I will post to your question specifying Scripture existence or lack there of.
2.  Apologies in advance; however, who in preceding posts is asking this question?  More over, I suppose : ), _why would the unbeliever even care to request forgiveness?????? _(I guess cause he was beginning to sense the reality of God and there of 'seeking' God) .... I understand how "2." relates to "1.;" however, that question leads to a plethora of others and others to others and others to others, taking us _away_ from the Original Post question, _no?_


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## gemcgrew

RegularJoe said:


> I see this and hear this 'doctrine' constantly in my 'Protestant Reformed' circles, _yet_ I have _yet_ to knowingly _see_ the specific supporting Scripture.


I am not speaking for the 'Protestant Reformed', whoever they are.
John 1:29, Hebrews 1:3, Hebrews 9:26,1 John 3:5 and a plethora of others.

Christ was either made sin... or He wasn't. (2 Corinthians 5:21)


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## RegularJoe

gemcgrew said:


> I am not speaking for the 'Protestant Reformed', whoever they are.
> John 1:29, Hebrews 1:3, Hebrews 9:26,1 John 3:5 and a plethora of others.
> Christ was either made sin... or He wasn't. (2 Corinthians 5:21)


These are helpful Scriptures - thank you.
[Reformed Christians: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Presbyterian-churches ]


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## RegularJoe

RegularJoe said:


> MM -
> Wonderfully important question,
> i.e., (Post #62, above) "_I would ask where some of these “doctrines” come from?
> Biblically where do we read all sins past, present, future, are forgiven?_"
> If it does or does not exist, it is probably going to take me a day or 3 to get back.  Meanwhile, I am hopeful another more Scripture knowledgeable person than I will post to your question specifying Scripture existence or lack there of.


The purpose of this post is simply to report back related to above, that which I have not found _and_ have found.
This post is not to suggest how any of us should think …
each to his / her own conclusions.
What I have _not_ found is specific Scripture saying that:

 Jesus died for the believer’s sins of past & present & future; of omission & co-mission; and of known & unknown.
Jesus died for “all” (this exact word) of the sins of the believer.
The believer is to ask for forgiveness _after_ having accepted Jesus as his Savior.
The believer is saved for _some_ sins upon his acceptance of Jesus as his Savior, and then other sins beyond that point in time where by the believer fails to ask for forgiveness, that the believer is _not_ saved.
The believer is to ask forgiveness beyond the point where the believer accepts Jesus as his savior.
What I _have_ found that is Scripture specific:

The believer is saved (past tense) of his sins thru Jesus’ having taken on the punishment of those sins …. with regard to this in one concordance (NIV 1985 by Zondervan Publishing) there were 29 Scriptures cited which I’d _guess_ are at least 80% supportive of the preceding sentence.  All 29 explicitly used the word ‘saved’ and ‘sins.’
An additional Scripture that may be helpful to the understanding is one which used the word ‘save,’ Hebrew 7:25 -  
NIV: “…He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him…”
KJV: “…He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him…”
Am looking forward to learning what others have found?
 Thanks ~ Joe.


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## Madman

RegularJoe said:


> MM -
> 1.  Wonderfully important question.  I see this and hear this 'doctrine' constantly in my 'Protestant Reformed' circles, _yet_ I have _yet_ to knowingly _see_ the specific supporting Scripture.  If it does or does not exist, it is probably going to take me a day or 3 to get back.  Meanwhile, I am hopeful another more Scripture knowledgeable person than I will post to your question specifying Scripture existence or lack there of.
> 2.  Apologies in advance; however, who in preceding posts is asking this question?  More over, I suppose : ), _why would the unbeliever even care to request forgiveness?????? _(I guess cause he was beginning to sense the reality of God and there of 'seeking' God) .... I understand how "2." relates to "1.;" however, that question leads to a plethora of others and others to others and others to others, taking us _away_ from the Original Post question, _no?_


I will say most people I know who argue for the forgiveness of future sins use Hebrews 10:14 as justification for their doctrine.


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## gemcgrew

RegularJoe said:


> [Reformed Christians: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Presbyterian-churches ]


I was unsure if you were referring to the Reformed Presbyterian, Baptist, Catholic, etc.

It helps to understand which 'circles' you are a part of.

Thanks


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## RegularJoe

Madman said:


> I will say most people I know who argue for the forgiveness of future sins use Hebrews 10:14 as justification for their doctrine.


Heb.10:14 - "_For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified._" ESV.  All renditions: https://biblehub.com/hebrews/10-14.htm


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## Madman

RegularJoe said:


> Heb.10:14 - "_For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified._" ESV.  All renditions: https://biblehub.com/hebrews/10-14.htm


But if put in context the verse is easily understood.


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## Madman

RegularJoe said:


> Double M ~ My replies in CAPs inserted....


Yes humans forgiving humans but in the same manner the Father forgives, as many times as asked.
We are in the process of becoming gods, and should therefore act as such.  Should we only forgive once?

No evidence is seen for the argument against the Lord’s Prayer.  The statement by our Lord is “When you pray…..”. There is no exclusionary statement, as in “until my death”.  Are we to not pray at all after his death, are we not bless His name?  I believe that argument is a “doctrinal justification”.

I simply ask we all stop and Biblically visit sin, confession, and forgiveness.

When one asks their spouse for forgiveness and it is given, is there no need to ask again if one does a wrong?

Let’s not warp Holy Scripture for the sake of our doctrine.

“God so loved the world that he sent his only son ……”


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## RegularJoe

Madman said:


> We are in the process of becoming gods, ”


Could you kindly guide to the Scripture that tells me what you just posited?
Thx.


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## Madman

RegularJoe said:


> Could you kindly guide to the Scripture that tells me what you just posited?
> Thx.


I respectfully asked that we stay on the topic at hand.  Keep that thought and let's discuss that later.

Do you have a response to the body of my post?  As it is on topic, I asked that you provide evidence that Christ expected his disciples to only pray "this way" until his death.


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## RegularJoe

Madman said:


> [1.] I respectfully asked that we stay on the topic at hand.  Keep that thought and let's discuss that later.
> [2.]  Do you have a response to the body of my post?  As it is on topic, I asked that you provide evidence that Christ expected his disciples to only pray "this way" until his death.



1.  You predicated your post, in part, on your statement '_we are in the process of becoming gods_,' so I thought it might be helpful to inquire with you of the Scripture basis for your view.  Hence, my question.  For whatever it is worth, I, personally, am not knowingly in the process of becoming a 'god' of _any_ type.
2. I have no reason to add to anything about Jesus' timing of His instructions on 'requesting forgiveness,' prior to Him having taken on my sins, than that which I have clearly offered in my Posts #1 and #64.   Meanwhile, for whatever it is worth,  I am at peace with two people reading the same Scripture and interpreting it in different fashions.  My interpretation, is, for me, self-evident, and completely theological.


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## Madman

RegularJoe said:


> 1.  You predicated your post, in part, on your statement '_we are in the process of becoming gods_,' so I thought it might be helpful to inquire with you of the Scripture basis for your view.  Hence, my question.  For whatever it is worth, I, personally, am not knowingly in the process of becoming a 'god' of _any_ type.
> 2. I have no reason to add to anything about Jesus' timing of His instructions on 'requesting forgiveness,' prior to Him having taken on my sins, than that which I have clearly offered in my Posts #1 and #64.   Meanwhile, for whatever it is worth,  I am at peace with two people reading the same Scripture and interpreting it in different fashions.  My interpretation, is, for me, self-evident, and completely theological.


Ok. I agree, one can read Holy Scripture and glean what one sees.   Personally I find confusion in being able to decide one part of “command” can be left out while other parts of the same command are followed.

Then again I have always believed it is the responsibility of the Church to teach and the Bible to prove.


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## tell sackett

RegularJoe said:


> Yes, J_seph, you are certainly right; and, in doing so * i have developed the understanding to the _distinct_ differences _between_:
> 1. Asking for _forgiveness_ (not to mention praying/begging! for related awareness of alllll my sins ... omission and comission as well as known by me and unknown by me :- );
> 2. _Confessing sins_ - which serves to remind me on how beyond mortal comprehension _thankful_ i am to be for Him having taken on all my sins; &
> 3. Being _repentant_.
> 
> The Q which arises by appealing to Him a _second_ time (consistent with The Bible i accepted His salvation from all my sins at the time i was accepted Him as my only means of salvation) for **forgiveness ...
> did i not accept His Promise in the _first_ place _as true_ that all my sins were forgiven?
> i DO want _to know_ of all my sins cause it thereby enables me to _confess_ my awareness, the actual sin itself (grievously of course!) + my refreshened (sp?) awareness of His having taken on that specific sin .... as well as all the others ... which in turn grows my _thankfulness_ for Him having unconditionally & marvelously done so.
> 
> Yup, certainly a wonderful *** point that is directly related to the proportionality of the dispensing of riches we are told to expect in Heaven (the concept here usually advanced, as i anticipate you have probably heard/read as well :- ), is that all of our glasses are full .... we probably just all have different size glasses.
> 
> And, in 1st John 1:9 **** _my_ personal interpretation (not suggesting it _should be_ yours, or that of others :- ) is that at the time i accepted Christ as my only means of salvation of all my sins (i confessed all my sins ... overt, convert + those those of which i will and will not as a mortal ever be even aware no matter how much i may wish to be aware) AND consistent with His promise, therein & throughout The Bible, _He right then and there forgave me_ ... in _my _humble view;
> if He hadn't i never be able to get into Heaven cause i HAVE to be sinless in the eyes of God to be accepted and it is only thru Christ's salvation that i can be so .... and God & Christ & The Holy Spirit, being omniscient, are the only 'entities' that KNOW of all the sins of which i will never mortally know.  Thus if i do not know of the sins, and if i must _confess again_ to be saved from them, i will never be saved of them cause i do not know of them for which to ask forgiveness _again_ < hence i shall never get to Heaven.



A couple of interesting points (to me) in 1John 1:9:
1) John begins with " If we "; he very much includes himself in this teaching
2) the word confess is in the present tense, suggesting continuous action

I believe we should be careful to read v.9 along with vs.8&10. Has Jesus' blood covered my sin? Yes, praise God. Am I set free from slavery to sin? Yes, praise God. Am I a sinner? Yes, but He is faithful and just, Where sin did abound, grace did much more abound.

A question to ponder: What was Jesus teaching us when he washed the disciples' feet? He stated that those who have been bathed have no need to wash except their feet but is completely clean(my paraphrase).


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