# For those of you who DON'T believe....



## Huntinfool (Sep 22, 2008)

This may have been covered in the past and, yes, I'm too lazy to go search...

But for those of you who frequent this area who do NOT believe; for those who would consider themselves athiest or agnostic, or anything OTHER than Christian....

Why?  If it's not too personal a question, what caused you to come to this conclusion specifically?  I'm not looking for some psycho-babble answer like your daddy didn't love you enough.  

I'm just curious.  I've honestly never had a conversation with someone who truly believed that the Bible was false, that God doesn't exist.  So I'm curious, if you're willing to tell your story, tell me about the path you took to get you to the place where you were convinced it was all a big sham.

No bashing here.  If folks start bashing what you post, I'll delete the thread.  I'm not interested in tearing apart your logic right now.  Just curious as to what your thought process was when you came to the comclusion that you're at now.


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## Double Barrel BB (Sep 22, 2008)

Just wanted to point out this is not supposed to be a Christian only forum... it is a Spiritual Forum, just because the majority of people who visit it are Christians, doesn't make it so...

DB BB


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## Twenty five ought six (Sep 22, 2008)

> it is a Spiritual Forum, just because the majority of people who visit it are Christians, doesn't make it so...



Yeah, right.

Not even all the Christians get a warm welcome with open arms.


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## Double Barrel BB (Sep 22, 2008)

Twenty five ought six said:


> Not even all the Christians get a warm welcome with open arms.


 
Very True!


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## dawg2 (Sep 22, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Just wanted to point out this is not supposed to be a Christian only forum... it is a Spiritual Forum, just because the majority of people who visit it are Christians, doesn't make it so...
> DB BB


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## Huntinfool (Sep 22, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Just wanted to point out this is not supposed to be a Christian only forum... it is a Spiritual Forum, just because the majority of people who visit it are Christians, doesn't make it so...
> 
> DB BB



Didn't say it was a Christian forum.  But clearly 90+% of the participants are Christian, and since I haven't seen a whole lot of serious discussion on the finer points of the Koran or any other religion...let's just say for all intents and purposes....

I'm not trying to pick a fight.  I genuinely want to know what some of these guys think and, more importantly, why.  I already said I'd delete if bashing started.


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## Double Barrel BB (Sep 22, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Didn't say it was a Christian forum. But clearly 90+% of the participants are Christian, and since I haven't seen a whole lot of serious discussion on the finer points of the Koran or any other religion...let's just say for all intents and purposes....
> 
> I'm not trying to pick a fight. I genuinely want to know what some of these guys think and, more importantly, why. I already said I'd delete if bashing started.


 

I was not bashing, or trying to pick a fight, I just wanted to make sure you were aware that this is not titled as a "Christian Spiritual Forum" wasn't meaning to offend...

DB BB


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## pnome (Sep 22, 2008)

Why do I not believe?

Because logic and reason dictate it.   

Let me start with an example.  

Positive proclamation:  I have an invisible fire breathing dragon in my garage at home.

Do you believe my extraordinary claim?  Are you even agnostic about it?   The logical answer is to not believe me until such time as I show you extraordinary evidence that my claim is true.

Now, let's look at common claim of god:

Positive proclamation:  There exists an omnipotent entity that created the universe and everything in it.  Further, this entity created one specific species on one specific planet _in his image._  Further, this entity cares about, and intervenes on behalf of this species.  A most extraordinary claim! 

Observable evidence of this:  None

Experimental evidence of this: None

Anecdotal evidence of this: Conflicting and varying wildly across different communities and faiths.

Now, an agnostic will take this and conclude that since there is some anecdotal evidence, it may be true, we just don't know without observable or experimental evidence.  And since such evidence is not likely to ever come to light, so they just say "maybe".

An atheist looks at this and dismisses the conflicting anecdotal evidence and concludes that there is no reason to believe any of it. (think Occam's razor here) It still may be true, but you needn't operate as if it is.  It is de facto false.


And to make matters more confusing:


> "If a man has failed to find any good reason for believing that there is a God, it is perfectly natural and rational that he should not believe that there is a God; and if so, he is an atheist... if he goes farther, and, after an investigation into the nature and reach of human knowledge, ending in the conclusion that the existence of God is incapable of proof, cease to believe in it on the ground that he cannot know it to be true, he is an agnostic and also an atheist - an agnostic-atheist - an atheist because an agnostic... while, then, it is erroneous to identify agnosticism and atheism, it is equally erroneous so to separate them as if the one were exclusive of the other..."  Robert Flint



Another quote that I love and use often:


> I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. - Stephen Roberts



It really is just a different world view.   I explained it in this post: http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?p=2451950#post2451950
(very good thread BTW)


And for the record, I think my parents raised me very well, and I love them dearly.  I could have done without the Catholic indoctrination, but I can forgive them that.


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## dawg2 (Sep 22, 2008)

pnome said:


> .....  I could have done without the Catholic indoctrination, ....



Now you will get bashed


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## Huntinfool (Sep 22, 2008)

pnome said:


> A most extraordinary claim!



That, I cannot argue.  That is the absolute truth.


Thanks for the insight.  I guess my follow-up would be at what point did you come to this conclusion.  I can only assume that, since you were brought up Catholic, you must have professed belief in God up to a certain point.  What were the events or discoveries/influences that led you to the condclusion?


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## Ronnie T (Sep 22, 2008)

pnome, why do you visit this sight.  Do you come as a believer in God or do you come as a servant of Satan?  You come as one or the other.  There is no neutral.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 22, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> pnome, why do you visit this sight.  Do you come as a believer in God or do you come as a servant of Satan?  You come as one or the other.  There is no neutral.



There is if you're an athiest!  You don't believe in either.

He came into THIS thread because I asked him to essentially.  No ill intent.  If you guys don't want to hear what an atheist has to say, don't read or post in this thread.  It's not here for you to bash why they believe what they believe.  It's here for them to explain it and for us to do something that Christians (and we in particular) are not very good at doing.....LISTEN (or read in this case).


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## rjcruiser (Sep 22, 2008)

Pnome,
How do you explain the prophecies made in the Old Testament and how they were all fulfilled? 

In particular, the book of Daniel?  Don't you find it more than just mere coincidence that all of these prophecies about the Nation of Israel, the Babylonian and medo-persian empires and the roman empire actually came to fruition?


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## dawg2 (Sep 22, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> pnome, why do you visit this sight.  Do you come as a believer in God or do you come as a servant of Satan?  You come as one or the other.  There is no neutral.



Sure there is.  Just like in war.  You have two sides.  For debate let's say "Good guys" and "Bad guys."  Then you have "civilians" or non-combatants stuck in the middle, many of whom don't have, or want to pick sides.  But as the battle progresses, it becomes evident (usually) which side is which....depending on how they are treated by the two warring sides...but sometimes it is hard to tell the good from the bad.

Quite frankly, I think you are afraid of atheists.  They rattle some people's faith with their questions.


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## dawg2 (Sep 22, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> There is if you're an athiest!  You don't believe in either.
> 
> He came into THIS thread because I asked him to essentially.  No ill intent.  If you guys don't want to hear what an atheist has to say, don't read or post in this thread.  It's not here for you to bash why they believe what they believe.  It's here for them to explain it and for us to do something that Christians (and we in particular) are not very good at doing.....LISTEN (or read in this case).



He is very smart and makes good points...just be ready to answer some tough questions from pnome


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## rjcruiser (Sep 22, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Sure there is.  Just like in war.  You have two sides.  For debate let's say "Good guys" and "Bad guys."  Then you have "civilians" or non-combatants stuck in the middle, many of whom don't have, or want to pick sides.  But as the battle progresses, it becomes evident (usually) which side is which....depending on how they are treated by the two warring sides...but sometimes it is hard to tell the good from the bad.
> 
> Quite frankly, I think you are afraid of atheists.  They rattle some people's faith with their questions.



I understand what RonnieT is saying, but agree, it wasn't in the best of form due to the OP's asking to keep from bashing and wanting to truly know why an athiest thinks the way they do.



dawg2 said:


> He is very smart and makes good points...just be ready to answer some tough questions from pnome



I agree and so the answers I give to his questions have solidified my faith and belief system even more.  For some reason, I believe that he would say the same thing


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## dawg2 (Sep 22, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> I understand what RonnieT is saying, but agree, it wasn't in the best of form due to the OP's asking to keep from bashing and wanting to truly know why an athiest thinks the way they do.



I think it is arrogant to say either you are with satan or God, no neutral ground.  If that were the case than every un-saved person or non-Christian is satanic and I do not believe that for one minute.


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## PWalls (Sep 22, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> I think it is arrogant to say either you are with satan or God, no neutral ground.  If that were the case than every un-saved person or non-Christian is satanic and I do not believe that for one minute.



Non-Christians are not necessarily "with" satan. But, they are definately his up until they are saved.


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## Dixie Dawg (Sep 22, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> pnome, why do you visit this sight.  Do you come as a believer in God or do you come as a servant of Satan?  You come as one or the other.  There is no neutral.



This part of the forum is Discussion, Debate and Study.  Why shouldn't he come here to discuss and debate his views?

Oh, and by the way, I had lunch with satan on Saturday.  He said to tell you 'hey'....


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## Huntinfool (Sep 22, 2008)

Now now Dixie....


How 'bout YOU tell me your side.  You were the other of the two I was really hoping would come in here and explain.  As I gather from what I've read, I would say your an atheist.  You just don't believe Christianity...

So what got you to that point specifically.  I'm sure you've explained it before.  But just humor me.  I KNOW you believed at one point.  In fact, you were sure of your salvation at one point.  So what was the "deal breaker" for you and why?


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## Dixie Dawg (Sep 22, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> This may have been covered in the past and, yes, I'm too lazy to go search...
> 
> But for those of you who frequent this area who do NOT believe; for those who would consider themselves athiest or agnostic, or anything OTHER than Christian....
> 
> ...




Well, I'm not a 'guy'... but I do consider myself an agnostic.  Meaning, I believe in a "higher power" (you can call it God if you'd like).  I believe parts of the bible are a great historical document of history, other parts I'm not convinced are factual but more stories made up to explain things that weren't understood, much like Greek mythology (which, incidentally, has gods with the same background and foundation as your Jesus, only predate him by hundreds or thousands of years).   I don't believe all of it is meant to be taken literally.   And I don't see how one can believe in the "Old Testament" and then also say they believe in the "New Testament" as well.  But I'm pretty sure I've covered all of that in recent posts... if you don't know that by now, I don't know how to make it any more plain 

I was a believer but always had questions that weren't answered.  And I'm also a believer in the idea that if most of you had been born in China, you would have been Buddhists.  If you had been born in Israel, you would  have been Jewish.  I think MUCH of it has to do with the way you are raised.  Unless you become like pnome and myself and decide you are brave enough to go against the grain and not accept unanswered questions or things that don't make logical sense.


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## Dixie Dawg (Sep 22, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Pnome,
> How do you explain the prophecies made in the Old Testament and how they were all fulfilled?
> 
> In particular, the book of Daniel?  Don't you find it more than just mere coincidence that all of these prophecies about the Nation of Israel, the Babylonian and medo-persian empires and the roman empire actually came to fruition?



There are a lot of people who have made prophecies that came true and had nothing to do with religion.  Nostradamus has had a lot of prophecies come true.  Even David Icke has had some prophecies come true. 

And, I had a fortune cookie yesterday that said I would get good news today... and I did!!  So there you go...


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## Dixie Dawg (Sep 22, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Now now Dixie....
> 
> 
> How 'bout YOU tell me your side.  You were the other of the two I was really hoping would come in here and explain.  As I gather from what I've read, I would say your an atheist.  You just don't believe Christianity...
> ...



Nope, I'm an agnostic.  Pnome posed the question to me about his fire breathing dragon last week and asked me to comment on it.  My answer to him was that until I have evidence to show he is wrong, I would have to take his word that his dragon was real, albeit invisible.  So, unless I can prove God doesn't exist, or have a better alternate answer for life as we know it, then I have to believe that something created us.  But when it comes to religious doctrine... all bets are off!  

If there was something specific you wanted to know that I didn't answer, just ask


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## Huntinfool (Sep 22, 2008)

Wouldn't you say, though, that most religions believe that their way is the only way?  So if you choose to not "place your bets", don't you, by default, sit on the sideline when the winner is announced regardless of who that winner is?

Being able to say, "I KNEW it wasn't Jesus" when Allah is proven right doesn't mean you get to go to the great temple in the sky, does it?  It just means you didn't step out and say "Since I know SOMEBODY is right, I'm gonna go with the guy who I think is right." doesn't it?

Just questions I have.


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## Dixie Dawg (Sep 22, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Wouldn't you say, though, that most religions believe that their way is the only way?  So if you choose to not "place your bets", don't you, by default, sit on the sideline when the winner is announced regardless of who that winner is?
> 
> Being able to say, "I KNEW it wasn't Jesus" when Allah is proven right doesn't mean you get to go to the great temple in the sky, does it?  It just means you didn't step out and say "Since I know SOMEBODY is right, I'm gonna go with the guy who I think is right." doesn't it?
> 
> Just questions I have.



You are assuming I think 'somebody is right'.   I don't.
I think there are many paths to God. Not just one.  That's crackerbox theology, not mine     I don't believe the creator would only make one way to have a relationship with him.  I don't think he would have entrusted the eternity of our souls (if there is one, mind you) to whether or not someone heard the 'good news', or accepted the gospel, or knew how to read, or got the right translation, or believed the interpretation, or any of the other variables that could go wrong in getting the message across.

So no, I'm not sitting on the sidelines waiting to see who is right.  When it comes to exclusivity, I don't think any of them are right.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 22, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> You are assuming I think 'somebody is right'.   I don't.
> I think there are many paths to God. Not just one.  That's crackerbox theology, not mine     I don't believe the creator would only make one way to have a relationship with him.  I don't think he would have entrusted the eternity of our souls (if there is one, mind you) to whether or not someone heard the 'good news', or accepted the gospel, or knew how to read, or got the right translation, or believed the interpretation, or any of the other variables that could go wrong in getting the message across.
> 
> So no, I'm not sitting on the sidelines waiting to see who is right.  When it comes to exclusivity, I don't think any of them are right.




Cool! Hey let me let you in on  something new I found out today. Palaeontologist claim that the very first or oldest evidence of religious worship or cult was to the cult of the serpent. Which could possibly give good luck, blessing etc.

What is interesting in this to me is that it is a serpent that tempted Eva ( the witch!) to sin and and get her and her beau to fall from grace, and the serpent is a symbol for knowledge medicine.

So I don't know if religions who dish out good luck charms, be they  in prayers or Collector editions of Jesus The Hockey Player, are really equal to those that DixieDawg refers to. peace.


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## pnome (Sep 22, 2008)

pm sent huntinfool


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## Ronnie T (Sep 22, 2008)

Let me pose my question again since pnome hasn't answered it yet and since some Christians on the forum believe a person can be an atheist and not be a tool of Satan.
I also believe this question goes perfectly in line with the subject of this particular debate.
Question:  Are you here, involved in Christian discussions, because you seek enlightenment in the Gospel of Jesus, which you don't believe in, or are you here to argue against a belief in Christ that you are mocking?

Since DixieDawg believes she knows more about Christianity than all us Chrisitans, I wouldn't mind her unsarcastic response either.


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## pnome (Sep 22, 2008)

> Let me pose my question again since pnome hasn't answered it yet and since some Christians on the forum believe a person can be an atheist and not be a tool of Satan.
> I also believe this question goes perfectly in line with the subject of this particular debate.
> Question: Are you here, involved in Christian discussions, because you seek enlightenment in the Gospel of Jesus, which you don't believe in, or are you here to argue against a belief in Christ that you are mocking?



I try, but sometimes fail, to not come across as mocking.  I am here to argue against religion.   It is a cancer on the human race.   Though, I will admit, Christianity is not nearly the most malignant form of it.


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## pnome (Sep 22, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Pnome,
> How do you explain the prophecies made in the Old Testament and how they were all fulfilled?
> 
> In particular, the book of Daniel?  Don't you find it more than just mere coincidence that all of these prophecies about the Nation of Israel, the Babylonian and medo-persian empires and the roman empire actually came to fruition?



rj,

I manifestly do not believe in prophecy.   No such thing.  Often times, you will find that either the prophecies are so vague that they are easily applied to many different events or events are orchestrated to appear as if the prophecy has been fulfilled.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 22, 2008)

pnome said:


> I try, but sometimes fail, to not come across as mocking.  I am here to argue against religion.   It is a cancer on the human race.   Though, I will admit, Christianity is not nearly the most malignant form of it.





Thanks  I appreciate your answer and the truthfulness of it.  If you don't mind, God bless you.


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## pnome (Sep 22, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> Thanks  I appreciate your answer and the truthfulness of it.  If you don't mind, God bless you.



Cancer may have been too strong a word.  Let's just say I don't think highly of religion.


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## dawg2 (Sep 22, 2008)

pnome said:


> Cancer may have been too strong a word.  Let's just say I don't think highly of religion.



No different than Christians who think less of other denominations.


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## Dixie Dawg (Sep 22, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> Let me pose my question again since pnome hasn't answered it yet and since some Christians on the forum believe a person can be an atheist and not be a tool of Satan.
> I also believe this question goes perfectly in line with the subject of this particular debate.
> Question:  Are you here, involved in Christian discussions, because you seek enlightenment in the Gospel of Jesus, which you don't believe in, or are you here to argue against a belief in Christ that you are mocking?
> 
> Since DixieDawg believes she knows more about Christianity than all us Chrisitans, I wouldn't mind her unsarcastic response either.



First of all, let me just say that if this were designated as a Christian-only forum, I wouldn't come here.  But since it is for discussion and debate, yes, I enjoy bringing my experiences and findings here, and if it turns into a discussion that's great.  More often than not, it turns into a debate.

Truthfully, I tend to give what I get.  There are many times that I have started a conversation in a thread in a civil and informative-only manner, only to be attacked by Christians, so I in turn give what I get.  I'm obviously no saint and never claimed to be one, so I can dish it out with the best of them.  And yes, depending on the hypocracy I have had to deal with in other aspects of daily life during that particular time frame, I can be very sarcastic as well.  Mostly to those who speak to us non-Christians such as you do.  As if we were no better than dogs to lick at your feet.  Ahh... no.  And, it often depends who I am conversing with.  Posts to you would tend to (obviously) be a bit more sarcastic and in a different tone than someone else who I don't already know how they tend to 'talk' to others on here.

I never claimed to know more than every other Christian on here about Christianity.  Just because I don't agree that everyone else  knows more than me doesn't mean I hold myself higher up than Christians.  That seems to be your job    But then, I don't have to know everything about Christianity.  I know enough to know I no longer believe in it.  Do you have to know the entire Mormon doctrine to know you don't accept it? How about Islam?  Muslims?  Hindu?  I didn't think so.

I don't come on here expecting to be enlightened.  However, since there are always new people coming into this forum, and it has over 20,000 members already, there is always the possibility that someone could sometime come up with the answers that I have been looking for all along and totally show me I have been wrong.   It could happen.  Stranger things have happened in the past.  The one thing I do know for sure though, it ain't gonna be anyone who talks to people like you do.....


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## Ronnie T (Sep 22, 2008)

Thanks Dixie Dawg.
I really do appreciate your answer to the question.  You do have a right to be on this forum. You have a right to be involved in any of the discussions on this debate forum.  I was just wondering why you were interested in this forum.
I feel I own you some information about myself now.  I'm a pathetic human being who is lucky to be able to call himself a child of God.  I'm weak, I think too highly of myself much too often.  I'm guilty of spending more time trying to uphold the Gospel(as though I need to) than I spend spreading it.  But, I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He came to be the Savior of the world.  I just wanted to know if you were seeking Him or debating Him.  Please forgive me if my inquiry was inappropriate.


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## RackNBeardOutdoors (Sep 22, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> First of all, let me just say that if this were designated as a Christian-only forum, I wouldn't come here.  But since it is for discussion and debate, yes, I enjoy bringing my experiences and findings here, and if it turns into a discussion that's great.  More often than not, it turns into a debate.
> 
> Truthfully, I tend to give what I get.  There are many times that I have started a conversation in a thread in a civil and informative-only manner, only to be attacked by Christians, so I in turn give what I get.  I'm obviously no saint and never claimed to be one, so I can dish it out with the best of them.  And yes, depending on the hypocracy I have had to deal with in other aspects of daily life during that particular time frame, I can be very sarcastic as well.  Mostly to those who speak to us non-Christians such as you do.  As if we were no better than dogs to lick at your feet.  Ahh... no.  And, it often depends who I am conversing with.  Posts to you would tend to (obviously) be a bit more sarcastic and in a different tone than someone else who I don't already know how they tend to 'talk' to others on here.
> 
> ...






Dixie and Pnome,

I am not mocking you or anything, I'm being serious. 

I'm curious as to what you think will happen once you die?


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## Dixie Dawg (Sep 22, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> Thanks Dixie Dawg.
> I really do appreciate your answer to the question.  You do have a right to be on this forum. You have a right to be involved in any of the discussions on this debate forum.  I was just wondering why you were interested in this forum.
> I feel I own you some information about myself now.  I'm a pathetic human being who is lucky to be able to call himself a child of God.  I'm weak, I think too highly of myself much too often.  I'm guilty of spending more time trying to uphold the Gospel(as though I need to) than I spend spreading it.  But, I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He came to be the Savior of the world.  I just wanted to know if you were seeking Him or debating Him.  Please forgive me if my inquiry was inappropriate.



Your inquiry wasn't inappropriate.  My somewhat snarky reply was due to other posts of yours in this forum today and previously, that's all.  I don't mind answering questions about my spiritual 'journey'.  Nobody has to agree with me or think I'm right or wrong, it doesn't matter... it's my journey and I am the one walking it, right or wrong.   I just don't like to be told that I'm wrong when it's a personal thing.  That's like someone telling me I'm wrong because I like fried okra.  If I like it, I like it... it's not for anyone else to judge.   Hope that makes sense.

Thank you for a very nice civil reply.  It was quite a refreshing surprise.


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## pnome (Sep 22, 2008)

RackNBeardOutdoors said:


> I'm curious as to what you think will happen once you die?



What was it like before you were born?  That's what it will be like after you die.


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## Dixie Dawg (Sep 22, 2008)

RackNBeardOutdoors said:


> Dixie and Pnome,
> 
> I am not mocking you or anything, I'm being serious.
> 
> I'm curious as to what you think will happen once you die?




Honestly, I have no idea.


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## duckcrazy (Sep 23, 2008)

First off let me say that I am a christian. I was saved when I was 13 years old. I was in church every time the doors opened until I was 20 years old. To make a long story short, there was some things that went on in my church that made me question if I wanted to be associated with such people. Lies, backstabbing, gossipping, and hypocrites pushed me away. I began to drink and became involved in worldly things. This went on until a couple of weeks ago and I am now 28 years old. My grandfather became deathly ill in the first part of August. When the pain and concern became to much to bear own my own, I had no where to turn except to God. He was waiting with open arms for me and has helped me turn my life around. I tell my story to give some context to what I am going to say now. There are alot of good people in the church. There is also alot of people in church that call themselves Christians but have forgotten what that means. A christian is supposed to be Christ-like or behave in a way Christ would. We are to love others and lift them up. It does not matter what they believe, what color they are, or where they are from. I go to a baptist church but don't agree with all of the doctrine. It just happens to be closer to my beliefs than others, but God does not care about our denomination. He cares about us. I cannot prove God exist any better than anyone else can prove he does not. All I can tell you is that I can feel his love in my heart the same way I can fell my wife's love. We as Christians need to be open to others ideas and beliefs. How can we expect anyone to see God through us if we do nothing but convict. I know I am not worthy to cast a stone. I just want others to see Gods love through my life and if anyone wants to talk fell free to PM me. I don't have all of the answers but I have done a lot of searching in the last 8 years and may be able to help.


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## Banjo (Sep 23, 2008)

> Because logic and reason dictate it.



Without God, logic and reason would not even exist.  

How does order come from chaos?  Better yet, how does matter come from nothing?


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## holton27596 (Sep 23, 2008)

I was "born again" when I was 14. I became agnostic when before I graduated high school. It was kind of obvious that just about every "christian" I knew would say one thing and do the complete opposite!. The bible is a history book, but like all history books it was written by the winners. All of those prophesies that came "true" were written about after the fact. The same way occultists verify the prophesies of Nostradamus or edgar Cayce. If religion makes you happy and fulfilled I am glad for you. However, the extreme religous right scares me almost as much as the luny left.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 23, 2008)

holton27596 said:


> The bible is a history book, but like all history books it was written by the winners. All of those prophesies that came "true" were written about after the fact.



So how do you explain the archeological find of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Qumran archeological finds?


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## RackNBeardOutdoors (Sep 23, 2008)

pnome said:


> What was it like before you were born?  That's what it will be like after you die.





Ok, then how do you explain the human race, trees, animals.

I'm just throwing the big bang theory around when I say this: I can't go out and make a bomb, cause a big explosion in a pasture, and beautiful trees will come out of the ground or people will start coming out.

How do you believe we got here?


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## Jim Thompson (Sep 23, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> So how do you explain the archeological find of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Qumran archeological finds?



although I have no dog in this hunt...

I have to tell you that when we accept some archeological finds we should probably accept all, even when they DONT agree with our faiths or beliefs


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## Dixie Dawg (Sep 23, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> So how do you explain the archeological find of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Qumran archeological finds?



What about them?


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## rjcruiser (Sep 23, 2008)

Jim Thompson said:


> although I have no dog in this hunt...
> 
> I have to tell you that when we accept some archeological finds we should probably accept all, even when they DONT agree with our faiths or beliefs



Does that mean we should believe the archeological find of Big Foot that was found in the N GA mountains earlier this year?  

I know, rhetorical question...and I see your point.  We should question all archeological finds and ensure that what they find is truly a historical artifact.  But I think that the Qumran finds have been substantiated by many Jewish Scholars.


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## Dixie Dawg (Sep 23, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> So how do you explain the archeological find of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Qumran archeological finds?



There is a collection of Sumerian tablets that are older than any 'known' copy of the Old Testament writings that describes a flood comparable to the flood of Noah... only the man in this story is named Gilgamesh.  It predates the Noah story... so who is or isn't to say that the Gilgamesh one is the 'right' one, and Noah is a copy?

If you want more info on the tablets, Google "Library of Ashurbanipal"


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## onemilmhz (Sep 23, 2008)

I am a Christian, though not a very good one.  I say that because I believe Christ is my Saviour but I fall very short of living up to the debt.  That being said, my post will, of course, seem biased.

For those of you who don't believe in an entity capable of creation, in my opinion, the one true God, how do you explain the complexities of the human being?  That is, the circulatory system?  The nervous system?  The respiratory system?  Skeletal and muscular structure?  Do you believe that our complexities are simply a matter of cosmic accident?  If so, do you believe it happened over and over again, thousands of times until we had all the animal species of the world?  And if so, do you believe it happened again with all the plant species?  Photosynthesis, pollination, etc.?  I could go one but I believe my point is made.

Now, taking into account you believe all this happened by mere coincidence, nothing more that a galactic hiccup, how then do you explain why we as human beings have an entirely different level of consciousness than say dogs, cats, fish, snakes, and even primates?  Why didn't that accident also extend to them?  I am in no way trying to belittle your beliefs or theologies.  I honestly want to know.


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## Dixie Dawg (Sep 23, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> There is a collection of Sumerian tablets that are older than any 'known' copy of the Old Testament writings that describes a flood comparable to the flood of Noah... only the man in this story is named Gilgamesh.  It predates the Noah story... so who is or isn't to say that the Gilgamesh one is the 'right' one, and Noah is a copy?



I also should add here, that maybe neither one are true, and the story is just that... a story made up about a big flood that happened and over the centuries was embellished to make it more fun and interesting for those telling it and those listening to it.  If you don't believe this could happen... ask your grandfather about how he had to walk to school, barefoot,  uphill, both ways, in 5 feet of snow, when he was a kid


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## Huntinfool (Sep 23, 2008)

pnome said:


> What was it like before you were born?  That's what it will be like after you die.



Wow!  Honestly, that's a pretty interesting answer.  From the perspective of one who doesn't believe in afterlife, I would imagine that's somewhat comforting (and that's not a snide remark.  I'm serious).

But didn't you say you hoped that there WAS an afterlife?


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## rjcruiser (Sep 23, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> What about them?



The fact that they show that the Book of Daniel and other OT prophetic books were written well before the events they described happened.

And it wasn't a few of the thousand prophecies that were fulfilled.  All of them were fulfilled.  And it wasn't just one or two.  Not sure off the top of my head, how many specific prophecies are in the Book of Daniel alone, but I know it was a large number (over 50).


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## Dixie Dawg (Sep 23, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> The fact that they show that the Book of Daniel and other OT prophetic books were written well before the events they described happened.
> 
> And it wasn't a few of the thousand prophecies that were fulfilled.  All of them were fulfilled.  And it wasn't just one or two.  Not sure off the top of my head, how many specific prophecies are in the Book of Daniel alone, but I know it was a large number (over 50).



Where is the proof for that?
The earliest known manuscripts of the Old Testament books date back to the 2nd century BC.  The events in Daniel happened around the 6th century BC.    

Which events are you talking about?


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## Dixie Dawg (Sep 23, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> The fact that they show that the Book of Daniel and other OT prophetic books were written well before the events they described happened.
> 
> And it wasn't a few of the thousand prophecies that were fulfilled.  All of them were fulfilled.  And it wasn't just one or two.  Not sure off the top of my head, how many specific prophecies are in the Book of Daniel alone, but I know it was a large number (over 50).



And no, sorry, but ALL of the prophecies of the OT have NOT been fulfilled.


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## gtparts (Sep 23, 2008)

*Food for thought?*

Take this for what it's worth. It is my take on some of your thoughts expressed here. 

1) For pnome: Despite how you feel about Christianity and taking into account the Crusades and the other misguided and un-Christian behavior we know about, Christians have done more good for others over the centuries than any other group, secular or religious. They have done more to relieve human misery  by feeding, clothing, providing shelter, medical care, clean water, training in farming and animal husbandry, educating and relocating as necessary. Why? Does this sound like a "cancer " agent? How does making life better for millions qualify for such disdain?

2) For all those who are atheist or agnostic: There are many things for which no one has an acceptable explanation if the standard is proof by the scientific method. Things spiritual are for the most part in this category. We obviously believe many things which we assume to be true because we are told; not because we have personally verified them. The lunar missions, the composition of stars and planets , the nature of the earths core, the existence of sub-atomic particles and their composition. 

These, at least for most of us, are accepted on faith. If I give testimony to a relationship with a spiritual deity, some would laugh. If millions upon millions of people give reverence to a deity, could it be that people are "wired" to seek to know this deity? Even the most primative and isolated people have an explanation for creation that  involves deity. Why?

3) How do you explain the radical change in behavior of millions and millions of people who have heard the Gospel of Christ?

4) For pnome: You have mentioned Occam's razor as being foundational in you atheistic position. Did you know that it is named incorrectly?  Occam or Ockham is an English city from which William of Ockham, a Franciscan friar and a logician of the 14th century, gave us the simple "razor" you like to use? That's right.... a friar. The idea that one only has to affirm a deity as the source of creation to explain all the questions of existence is far more compact and cleaner than relying on millions and millions of random events occurring to arrive at  modern _homo sapien_s. It reduces cosmology down to one succinct statement.

 Hold to your beliefs if you will, but the "razor" cuts for God; not against him.

Finally , three recommendations for the curious:

The Case For A Creator  by Lee Strobel

ISBN 0-310-24050-6

C. S. Lewis's Case For Christ: Insights from Reason, Imagination, and Faith by Art Lindsley

ISBN 0-8308-3285-8

More Than A Carpenter by Josh McDowell

ISBN 0-8423-4552-3

Peace be unto you and yours.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 23, 2008)

Dixie, I won't contradict that nor confirm it because I honestly don't know.

But, could you specifically point out a few that weren't fulfilled for us?


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## Paymaster (Sep 23, 2008)

Good civil discussion for a change! My question is for those who were once Christian and turned away. Did you experience Grace? If you were changed, then what happened to change you again? I experienced Grace when I was 17 years old. I have never been the same since. I cannot imagine disbelieving ever again. I have not walked a perfect life and I believe many unbelievers have walked a better life than me. That being said, I have asked and received forgiveness of my sins many times. Without repentance I would be a mess for sure. So if Grace was received by you how did it leave?


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## rjcruiser (Sep 23, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> There is a collection of Sumerian tablets that are older than any 'known' copy of the Old Testament writings that describes a flood comparable to the flood of Noah... only the man in this story is named Gilgamesh.  It predates the Noah story... so who is or isn't to say that the Gilgamesh one is the 'right' one, and Noah is a copy?
> 
> If you want more info on the tablets, Google "Library of Ashurbanipal"



Well, I figure you know the answer to this already, but that would be presumption on my part, so I'll answer for the good of everyone on here.

The Epic of Gilgamesh is an epic...a great story.  And like the great pieces of literary fiction today, pull actual events and write about them (such as WWII fictitious novels...WWII happened, but the writer brings in fictitious events to add intrigue).

I know, your next thought is, well that is what the Bible is (or I'll say the OT is).  Fictitious Hebrew writings.  An epic story of how the earth was created, Moses parting the waters of the Dead Sea, Joshua marching around the walls of Jericho, David slaying Goliath with a sling and stone, Daniel in the Lions den....the stories go on and on.  All, have a bit of truth in them to make them believable, yet fiction is added to make it a great story.  

Where is the difference?  The Bible Claims to be Fact, not fiction.  Also, the Bible has a huge amount of prophetic claims that actually came to fruition.  How can it be that an OT prophet writes about Christ's crucifixion and that not a bone in his body would be broken (Ex 12:46, Num 9:12, Ps 34:20), and in another place, His side would be pierced (Zech 12:10)?  Then, when the Roman guards came around to make speed along the death on the cross (usually done by breaking the bones in the person's legs to keep them from pushing the body up to allow the chest cavity room to breath), they said that Christ was already dead and they decided to pierce His side rather than break his legs?

Just one of the many.  And as I noted before, the Dead Sea Scrolls and other archeological findings are showing that these writings and prophecies did actually occur before the events took place.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 23, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> And no, sorry, but ALL of the prophecies of the OT have NOT been fulfilled.



You are correct....they have not all been fulfilled yet.  Many of them have been fulfilled and some are yet to be fulfilled.  I should have been more detailed in my original post.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 23, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> And no, sorry, but ALL of the prophecies of the OT have NOT been fulfilled.





Huntinfool said:


> Dixie, I won't contradict that nor confirm it because I honestly don't know.
> 
> But, could you specifically point out a few that weren't fulfilled for us?





rjcruiser said:


> You are correct....they have not all been fulfilled yet.  Many of them have been fulfilled and some are yet to be fulfilled.  I should have been more detailed in my original post.




I will add to this and answer some questions that have been raised.  There are prophecies made in Daniel that refer to the end times and correlate with what the Apostle John wrote in the book of Revelation.  These have not yet come to fruition.

Again, I should have been more clear in my original post.  Dixie Dawg, good catch and way to keep my feet to the fire


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## pnome (Sep 23, 2008)

Banjo said:


> How does order come from chaos?  Better yet, how does matter come from nothing?



Honestly, I can't say I know for certain.   I'm not much of a quantum physicist.   Who knows?  Maybe that Large Hadron Collider experiment will tell us.  That said, there is a wide gulf between not knowing and the God of Abraham.   To believe in god just because humans don't have all the answers is to believe in a god that is constantly shrinking.


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## gtparts (Sep 23, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> And no, sorry, but ALL of the prophecies of the OT have NOT been fulfilled.



You are right!

I am confident that those which have not been fulfilled, will be.



BTW, you asked for prayers on a different thread. Have they been answered? Do you pray to the higher power you mentioned? Is he/she/it/they singular in nature? Since you asked for others to pray for you, you must assume some one or some group is correct as to the deity they pray to and that that deity might respond favorably to the intercessions and supplications. Am I right in this or did you ask just to give us some "spiritual" exercise? 

I know the need is/was genuine. You need not respond to that last question.

Peace be to you and yours.


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## gtparts (Sep 23, 2008)

*The LHC has no answer for the questions each should ask.*



pnome said:


> Honestly, I can't say I know for certain.   I'm not much of a quantum physicist.   Who knows?  Maybe that Large Hadron Collider experiment will tell us.  That said, there is a wide gulf between not knowing and the God of Abraham.   To believe in god just because humans don't have all the answers is to believe in a god that is constantly shrinking.



One can not gain ground on infinite questions with finite answers. 

God is. 
God is good. 
God is knowable.

Peace and wisdom be unto you


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## Dixie Dawg (Sep 23, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Well, I figure you know the answer to this already, but that would be presumption on my part, so I'll answer for the good of everyone on here.
> 
> The Epic of Gilgamesh is an epic...a great story.  And like the great pieces of literary fiction today, pull actual events and write about them (such as WWII fictitious novels...WWII happened, but the writer brings in fictitious events to add intrigue).
> 
> ...



The bible may claim to be fact, but that claim doesn't MAKE it fact.  Actually, Gilgamesh may very well have been a king of Sumeria in the 27th century BCE.  So how do we know this 'epic' wasn't 'fact' to them? 

The Greeks had their faith in their gods... yet they are now called 'myths'.  It wasn't myth to them, they believed in their gods just as much as you believe in yours.  And probably had just as much evidence to support their faith as you do.

Your claims to the 'prophecies' of Jesus on the cross are incorrect... those were not prophecies of the crucifixion, that is a common incorrect use of taking verses out of context and trying to apply them to Jesus.  Besides, it is very easy to create fulfilled prophecies in that manner.  Do you have proof that Jesus was the only man in history who ever died that way on the cross, without having a leg broken or being stabbed in the side? IF it even happened?  

Again, I ask, how can you use the Dead Sea Scrolls as 'proof' when they were written approximately 400 years after the time frame of the prophecies in Daniel were said to have happened?   Now, if you had evidence of the book of Daniel that was written 100 years BEFORE the events happened, then you might have something.  But so far, there is nothing.


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## Jim Thompson (Sep 23, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Does that mean we should believe the archeological find of Big Foot that was found in the N GA mountains earlier this year?
> 
> I know, rhetorical question...and I see your point.  We should question all archeological finds and ensure that what they find is truly a historical artifact.  But I think that the Qumran finds have been substantiated by many Jewish Scholars.



that particular archeological (them were some real archeologists too!!!) find was proven to be a hoax...so no we should not believe, nor should we have believed before the proof was in the rubber suit so to speak

the qumran finds may have been substantiated, but so has bones from millions of years ago that many religions decide to over look or claim false science because it doesnt fit into their belief.


same thing with stories of the bible.  all we have is word of man (some of which was spoken from within) to believe unless proven otherwise.  the goofy fellas in NGA with the rubber suit would have had bigfoot for hundreds of years to come if not proven false by science or eye witnesses etc.

that has always been my issue with religeons in general.  we are asked to believe the word of god written by man with possibly hundreds of different versions and different gods according to where you were born or what you were taught, but would not believe anything written by man today no matter where the inspiration comes from...without proof.


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## holton27596 (Sep 23, 2008)

that is where the problem lies. The bible was written by man , after the events took place. Virtually all "myths"were considered to be real and "fact" by those worshiping them at the time.


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## Dixie Dawg (Sep 23, 2008)

gtparts said:


> You are right!
> 
> I am confident that those which have not been fulfilled, will be.
> 
> ...



Not all prayers are answered, no matter how much 'faith' one has.  And not all prayers are answered instantaneously, either.

I believe in a creator.  Singular.  And yes, I do pray.  But I think of things differently than you do.  I don't see God as something that has an appearance, or even the old standard image of an old man with a really long beard and wearing a robe.  I see things as more of energies... positive and negative energies.  When I pray, I think of it more as a positive energy sent out, with the hopes of collecting even more back.  Some may call it karma, some may call it a 'vibe', or something to that effect, all I know is that it's true.   Have you ever had someone walk into a room and immediately felt better, feeling positive energy coming from them? Or the opposite, feeling bad because of a negative energy?  That's what I'm talking about.

And, of course, I could be totally wrong in my beliefs.  But I don't believe or tell anyone they face horrifying consequences if they don't accept my version of things......


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## rjcruiser (Sep 23, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Your claims to the 'prophecies' of Jesus on the cross are incorrect... those were not prophecies of the crucifixion, that is a common incorrect use of taking verses out of context and trying to apply them to Jesus.  Besides, it is very easy to create fulfilled prophecies in that manner.  Do you have proof that Jesus was the only man in history who ever died that way on the cross, without having a leg broken or being stabbed in the side? IF it even happened?



How am I taking those verses out of context?  Was not Christ our perfect sacrifice?   I know, you are going to say no to that one. 



			
				DixieDawg said:
			
		

> Again, I ask, how can you use the Dead Sea Scrolls as 'proof' when they were written approximately 400 years after the time frame of the prophecies in Daniel were said to have happened?   Now, if you had evidence of the book of Daniel that was written 100 years BEFORE the events happened, then you might have something.  But so far, there is nothing.



I have some reference materials that I will provide....not with me though as I don't have my library at work   But there have been many archeological finds that predate or substantiate the dates of the Bible.


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## PWalls (Sep 23, 2008)

holton27596 said:


> that is where the problem lies. The bible was written by man , after the events took place. Virtually all "myths"were considered to be real and "fact" by those worshiping them at the time.



Not singling you out, but using your quote.

Any Christian that believes the Bible was written by man and that is as far as they go with the statement is in real spiritual need and is adrift from where their center should be. The Bible was written by men. But, it was inspired by God. Our God gave the words to the men to write.

The Bible is not a book about the Word of God. The Bible IS the Word of God.


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## Dixie Dawg (Sep 23, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> How am I taking those verses out of context?  Was not Christ our perfect sacrifice?   I know, you are going to say no to that one.



No.  

And, part of the problem is that your version of the bible is mistranslated.  It doesn't say they have pierced my hands and feet.  It says like a lion , not pierced.  And it's not talking about Jesus, it's talking about David.  But that's for another thread.  





> I have some reference materials that I will provide....not with me though as I don't have my library at work   But there have been many archeological finds that predate or substantiate the dates of the Bible.



Great, I'd love to see them.  The earliest I could find were the Dead Sea Scrolls which have been dated back to 2nd Century BCE.  So whatever you have should be interesting!


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## Dixie Dawg (Sep 23, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Not singling you out, but using your quote.
> 
> Any Christian that believes the Bible was written by man and that is as far as they go with the statement is in real spiritual need and is adrift from where their center should be. The Bible was written by men. But, it was inspired by God. Our God gave the words to the men to write.
> 
> The Bible is not a book about the Word of God. The Bible IS the Word of God.



That's what you believe.  That's what you have faith in.  There is no proof of that.  Most all religions believe their holy books were inspired by or the word of their god(s).  Christianity isn't special in that sense.


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## PWalls (Sep 23, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> BCE



I despise that everytime someone posts it. That acronym is an affront. I am sure you are aware of that. But you have that right. Just like the people who came up with it.


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## dawg2 (Sep 23, 2008)

Jim Thompson said:


> .... but would not believe anything written by man today no matter where the inspiration comes from...without proof.



Wonder why that is...


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## rjcruiser (Sep 23, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> No.
> 
> And, part of the problem is that your version of the bible is mistranslated.  It doesn't say they have pierced my hands and feet.  It says like a lion , not pierced.  And it's not talking about Jesus, it's talking about David.  But that's for another thread.



Not saying that the piercing stated above is like hands and feet, but like you said as a lion piercing his prey.  When the Roman Guards came around to make sure Christ was dead, they split open his side (pierced his side) and all that was inside came out.  Just as a lion splitting open his prey.


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## PWalls (Sep 23, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> That's what you believe.  That's what you have faith in.  There is no proof of that.  Most all religions believe their holy books were inspired by or the word of their god(s).  Christianity isn't special in that sense.



My point was made to Christians who think the Bible was written by man alone.

I understand your viewpoint.


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## gtparts (Sep 23, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> There is a collection of Sumerian tablets that are older than any 'known' copy of the Old Testament writings that describes a flood comparable to the flood of Noah... only the man in this story is named Gilgamesh.  It predates the Noah story... so who is or isn't to say that the Gilgamesh one is the 'right' one, and Noah is a copy?
> 
> If you want more info on the tablets, Google "Library of Ashurbanipal"




How does anyone know that the Sumerian version is not derived from the oral traditions of Noah as recorded in the Torah? Just because someone puts stylus to moist clay doe not establish the origin of that writing. Can anyone date the flood exactly?

 Since you are familiar with many Jewish cultural practices, how were copies of the Torah replicated? 

Thought you would never ask!

Temple scribes laboriously and painstakingly copied the text from a old copy that through wear from use had become rendered close to unusable. The process is such that the new copy is "proofread" to be absolutely faithful to the old. If not , the new is destroyed and the process restarted. When a perfect copy (as regards content) is completed, the old is destroyed in a sacred, prescribed manner. The oldest manuscripts are therefore rather recent relative to clay tablets, but that is meaningless in dating and ascribing source of origin.


Peace be to you and yours.


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## Jim Thompson (Sep 23, 2008)

btw, pwalls you are correct that this has been one of the better (well handled) discussions/debates that we have had in years


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## PWalls (Sep 23, 2008)

Jim Thompson said:


> btw, pwalls you are correct that this has been one of the better (well handled) discussions/debates that we have had in years



Jim, gotta give credit to Paymaster for that comment.

But, I agree.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 23, 2008)

Dixie, I agree with you and Pnome in this.  The claims of Christ and of Christianity are extraordinary.  There little, if any verifiable proof that any of it happened or that Jesus existed or was actually the son of God.  

I think one of the main issues that I'm hearing is that you guys think it's incredibly naive of anyone to simply believe it because of "faith" or ,as you might argue, because of where we were born or what we've been taught.

I agree, had I been born in India or China, I most likely would have been brought up under a different religion and believe differently.  That is something that is hard to reconcile.  But I think of it in the same way that I'm just fortunate that I was born in America.  I'm fortunate to have the freedoms that I have and I'm fortunate to have been born into a Christian family.  But there are MILLIONS of people around the world who were not born into Christian families who heard the message and believed it.  Yeh, same can be said for other religions.  But my point is that it's not JUST a function of where I was born.  It's that the message resonates true.

My response to part of it is this.  I was there.  I was brought up in a preacher's house.  I knew all the answers, but didn't really believe any of it.  I thought "I'm too smart to believe all this conjecture"....at least that's what my actions showed.

I'll just say that I wouldn't expect anybody to believe any of this without having a personal experience that convinces them that it's all true.  I didn't, that's for dang sure.  

BUT, there's now no doubt in my mind that God pursued me.  He was willing to ruin everything to get me to pay attention and he pretty much did....and it got my attention.  There is no doubt in my mind that I had and continue to have an encounter with the one true living God that day.  He made it very clear to me and there was no doubt about what was happening.

You may call that just an emotional experience.  I would say that, unless you've had that type of experience, you'll just not understand what I'm talking about.  It was entirely more than emotion.

So I wouldn't expect anyone who has not had an experience like that to "buy it".  It's tough to swallow on the surface.  I'll give you that.  The reason I asked the original question was just this.  I don't need anybody to approve of why I "buy it".  I just do and that's enough.  I want you to "buy it".  I really do, because then you'll understand what I'm getting at.  

I'll just keep on praying that God does for you guys what he was willing to do for me...


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## Huntinfool (Sep 23, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Jim, gotta give credit to Paymaster for that comment.
> 
> But, I agree.



HEY!!!!


What about the OP and the assertion that the thread would be deleted if we go into mud slinging?

No respect I tell ya.  No respect.


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## Jim Thompson (Sep 23, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Jim, gotta give credit to Paymaster for that comment.
> 
> But, I agree.



oops sorry  I mix all the dadgum mods up


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## onemilmhz (Sep 23, 2008)

onemilmhz said:


> I am a Christian, though not a very good one.  I say that because I believe Christ is my Saviour but I fall very short of living up to the debt.  That being said, my post will, of course, seem biased.
> 
> For those of you who don't believe in an entity capable of creation, in my opinion, the one true God, how do you explain the complexities of the human being?  That is, the circulatory system?  The nervous system?  The respiratory system?  Skeletal and muscular structure?  Do you believe that our complexities are simply a matter of cosmic accident?  If so, do you believe it happened over and over again, thousands of times until we had all the animal species of the world?  And if so, do you believe it happened again with all the plant species?  Photosynthesis, pollination, etc.?  I could go one but I believe my point is made.
> 
> Now, taking into account you believe all this happened by mere coincidence, nothing more that a galactic hiccup, how then do you explain why we as human beings have an entirely different level of consciousness than say dogs, cats, fish, snakes, and even primates?  Why didn't that accident also extend to them?  I am in no way trying to belittle your beliefs or theologies.  I honestly want to know.


Is no one interested in my previous post???  Have I hit on something or did it just go unnoticed?


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## Dixie Dawg (Sep 23, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Not saying that the piercing stated above is like hands and feet, but like you said as a lion piercing his prey.  When the Roman Guards came around to make sure Christ was dead, they split open his side (pierced his side) and all that was inside came out.  Just as a lion splitting open his prey.



No, sorry.

It doesn't say anything about piercing or splitting open.  And changing the words still doesn't make it a prophecy about Jesus because you're still taking it out of context.  

This is what it says;  although this is 
Psalm 22:14 They open their mouths against me, like a lion (ka'ari) they are at my hands and my feet.

The author of the Psalm also uses the same word again in this same psalm, and this time the Christians have it translated correctly... so I wonder what the reason for their mistranslation could be in verse 14? 
Psalm 22:22(21)  Save me from the lion's (ka'ari) mouth as You have answered me from the horns of the reimim (KJV "unicorn").

David is writing this psalm as he wrote most of the psalms, about the hardships of the Jews exile and hopeful for when they can return to their land and their temple.  It has nothing to do with Jesus and it isn't a messianic prophecy.


----------



## gtparts (Sep 23, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Not all prayers are answered, no matter how much 'faith' one has.  And not all prayers are answered instantaneously, either.
> 
> I believe in a creator.  Singular.  And yes, I do pray.  But I think of things differently than you do.  I don't see God as something that has an appearance, or even the old standard image of an old man with a really long beard and wearing a robe.  I see things as more of energies... positive and negative energies.  When I pray, I think of it more as a positive energy sent out, with the hopes of collecting even more back.  Some may call it karma, some may call it a 'vibe', or something to that effect, all I know is that it's true.   Have you ever had someone walk into a room and immediately felt better, feeling positive energy coming from them? Or the opposite, feeling bad because of a negative energy?  That's what I'm talking about.
> 
> And, of course, I could be totally wrong in my beliefs.  But I don't believe or tell anyone they face horrifying consequences if they don't accept my version of things......



May I continue to pray for you with regards to that need? 

And for what it's worth, I don't see God as an old man either. I conceptualize Him as Spirit with a revealed nature in accordance with His Word. Human thought can not do Him justice; words and pictures are totally inadequate. Even Jesus in His physical appearance was inadequate, for man in his sin is incapable of seeing Him as He truly is.

 My relationship to Him is far more personal. That is not a boast of having special standing, but rather a recognition of the position and responsibility God has given me through Jesus.

Grace and peace to you and yours.


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 23, 2008)

onemilmhz said:


> I am a Christian, though not a very good one.  I say that because I believe Christ is my Saviour but I fall very short of living up to the debt.  That being said, my post will, of course, seem biased.
> 
> For those of you who don't believe in an entity capable of creation, in my opinion, the one true God, how do you explain the complexities of the human being?  That is, the circulatory system?  The nervous system?  The respiratory system?  Skeletal and muscular structure?  Do you believe that our complexities are simply a matter of cosmic accident?  If so, do you believe it happened over and over again, thousands of times until we had all the animal species of the world?  And if so, do you believe it happened again with all the plant species?  Photosynthesis, pollination, etc.?  I could go one but I believe my point is made.
> 
> Now, taking into account you believe all this happened by mere coincidence, nothing more that a galactic hiccup, how then do you explain why we as human beings have an entirely different level of consciousness than say dogs, cats, fish, snakes, and even primates?  Why didn't that accident also extend to them?  I am in no way trying to belittle your beliefs or theologies.  I honestly want to know.



Einstein said (and I paraphrase): "My sense of God is my wonder of the Universe."    

It's not a good enough explanation.   Just because we don't understand how it works doesn't mean its "magic".


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Sep 23, 2008)

gtparts said:


> How does anyone know that the Sumerian version is not derived from the oral traditions of Noah as recorded in the Torah? Just because someone puts stylus to moist clay doe not establish the origin of that writing. Can anyone date the flood exactly?
> 
> Since you are familiar with many Jewish cultural practices, how were copies of the Torah replicated?
> 
> ...



I already knew that, but thanks 

That doesn't change the argument.  Yes, they can date floods.  In fact they have found evidence of a monumental catastrophic flood in the Sumerian area that dates back thousands of years. I saw a whole show on it on the History channel a while back.  So, the "epic' of Gilgamesh does have possible valid backing.  However, a worldwide flood has yet to been even remotely proven.

As far as dating the clay tablets, again, this can be done by using science to find out the types of materials in the clay and matching them up to samples taken from the area in which they were made and seeing where in history it lines up. They may not get an exact year, but they can get pretty close.

The area of Mesopotamia between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers is the oldest civilization found yet... They also have the oldest recorded religion.  Since records are the only 'proof' of when something was recorded, unless you can come up with some scrolls or something that predate the Mesopotamian ones, they still hold the record.

If I am wrong about any of this, please show me.  But I can remember reading and learning about Mesopotamia and it being the oldest known civilization since I was in the 4th grade, so it's nothing new.


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Sep 23, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Dixie, I agree with you and Pnome in this.  The claims of Christ and of Christianity are extraordinary.  There little, if any verifiable proof that any of it happened or that Jesus existed or was actually the son of God.
> 
> I think one of the main issues that I'm hearing is that you guys think it's incredibly naive of anyone to simply believe it because of "faith" or ,as you might argue, because of where we were born or what we've been taught.
> 
> ...



I believe in God.  I just don't believe in Jesus.


----------



## gtparts (Sep 23, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I also should add here, that maybe neither one are true, and the story is just that... a story made up about a big flood that happened and over the centuries was embellished to make it more fun and interesting for those telling it and those listening to it.  If you don't believe this could happen... ask your grandfather about how he had to walk to school, barefoot,  uphill, both ways, in 5 feet of snow, when he was a kid



If I remember and if I'm not too involved in worshiping God through eternity, I'll ask him in heaven.


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Sep 23, 2008)

onemilmhz said:


> Is no one interested in my previous post???  Have I hit on something or did it just go unnoticed?



I believe in God, so I have nothing to debate about what you said.

Believe it or not...


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Sep 23, 2008)

gtparts said:


> If I remember and if I'm not too involved in worshiping God through eternity, I'll ask him in heaven.



You know what I meant


----------



## gtparts (Sep 23, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> No, sorry.
> 
> It doesn't say anything about piercing or splitting open.  And changing the words still doesn't make it a prophecy about Jesus because you're still taking it out of context.
> 
> ...



Whoa!

 David was writing about the exile?  

PROPHESY!!!!!

David was long dead before the exile to Babylon or was he lamenting the Egyptian "exile" beginning with Joseph? And , if so why?


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## onemilmhz (Sep 23, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> Just because we don't understand how it works doesn't mean its "magic".


So you find it more believable that it all happened by some set of colossal random circumstances than by one divine act of intelligence?  Hundreds of trillions of little happenings taking place exactly right all by themselves rather than one, thought out, created plan?  I can't imagine my existence is reliant upon some form of intergalactic nothingness simply starting to "happen".  I choose, rather, to have faith that I am a created being, invented in the mind of someone so much larger than myself that I would be completely arrogant to brush Him off for not explaining it all to me.


----------



## onemilmhz (Sep 23, 2008)

gtparts said:


> If I remember and *if I'm not too involved in worshiping God through eternity*, I'll ask him in heaven.


----------



## gtparts (Sep 23, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I already knew that, but thanks
> 
> That doesn't change the argument.  Yes, they can date floods.  In fact they have found evidence of a monumental catastrophic flood in the Sumerian area that dates back thousands of years. I saw a whole show on it on the History channel a while back.  So, the "epic' of Gilgamesh does have possible valid backing.  However, a worldwide flood has yet to been even remotely proven.
> 
> ...



Are you willing to admit that the Noah account could predate the Gilgamesh account while still lacking scientific proof. 

After all, the time line for Sumer is from approx. 6000 BC to 2000 BC. They developed writing approx. 3500 BC. The current dating for the flood was at least 4500 yrs. earlier, way before writing, so it (the Gilgamesh account) would necessarily either be fictional or based on oral tradition, possibly as I suggested from Hebraic oral tradition (i.e. the Noah account).

Peace.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Sep 23, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Dixie, I agree with you and Pnome in this. The claims of Christ and of Christianity are extraordinary. There little, if any verifiable proof that any of it happened or that Jesus existed or was actually the son of God.
> 
> I think one of the main issues that I'm hearing is that you guys think it's incredibly naive of anyone to simply believe it because of "faith" or ,as you might argue, because of where we were born or what we've been taught.
> 
> ...


 

*AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Sep 23, 2008)

gtparts said:


> Whoa!
> 
> David was writing about the exile?
> 
> ...



No, not prophecy.
David was a great king with a lot of enemies.  If you take off the Christian glasses for a minute and read the psalm for what it says instead of what you have been taught it says, you will see that he is begging God to help him keep the kingdom, even under the attack of his enemies, to guide him and help him as God helped the Jews during the exile.  He is telling God that he is putting all of his trust in Him, just as his forefathers did.  And he is praising God that in the end, everyone will worship God.

Seriously, 'pretend' for just a moment that you hadn't ever been told that psalm was supposed to be related to Jesus.  Knowing who it was written by, go back and read it.  It isn't prophetic.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Sep 23, 2008)

onemilmhz said:


> Is no one interested in my previous post??? Have I hit on something or did it just go unnoticed?


 

Have you watched the Discovery Channel's "Body in Numbers" Truely amazing..  It comes on Wednesday nights at 9 I believe... Should check it out...

DB BB


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Sep 23, 2008)

gtparts said:


> Human thought can not do Him justice; words and pictures are totally inadequate. Even Jesus in His physical appearance was inadequate, for man in his sin is incapable of seeing Him as He truly is.


 
Another,

*AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Sep 23, 2008)

gtparts said:


> Are you willing to admit that the Noah account could predate the Gilgamesh account while still lacking scientific proof.
> 
> After all, the time line for Sumer is from approx. 6000 BC to 2000 BC. They developed writing approx. 3500 BC. The current dating for the flood was at least 4500 yrs. earlier, way before writing, so it (the Gilgamesh account) would necessarily either be fictional or based on oral tradition, possibly as I suggested from Hebraic oral tradition (i.e. the Noah account).
> 
> Peace.



Either I am not understanding you or you have your time line mixed up.  Are you saying the Noah flood occurred in 9500 - 10,000 BC?   (6000 BC + the 4500 years earlier you claim)

Actually it doesn't matter... either way, my answer would be no.  Sumerian and Egyptian language predates Hebrew (at least, based on when writing systems were developed).  Mesopotamia at 6000 BC still predates the time of the bible.  Estimates based on the bible put the beginning of civilization around 4000 years ago.  Pretty big gap there if you ask me.....


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Sep 23, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Have you watched the Discovery Channel's "Body in Numbers" Truely amazing..  It comes on Wednesday nights at 9 I believe... Should check it out...
> 
> DB BB



I meant to watch that last week... will have to try and remember tomorrow!


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 23, 2008)

So Dixie, I know Pnome believes that Jesus lived, but that he wasn't the son of God.  

You said earlier that you believe in God, you just don't believe in Jesus.  Do you not believe he lived at all?  Or do you just not believe, as Pnome, that he was the son of God?


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Sep 23, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I meant to watch that last week... will have to try and remember tomorrow!


 

I have them all so far DVR'ed and have watched the first 2, it is just simply amazing, the complexity of the human body, personally I don't see how anyone could see this complexity and still not believe in atleast a god, maybe not my God, but atleast a god...

DB BB


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Sep 23, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> So Dixie, I know Pnome believes that Jesus lived, but that he wasn't the son of God.
> 
> You said earlier that you believe in God, you just don't believe in Jesus.  Do you not believe he lived at all?  Or do you just not believe, as Pnome, that he was the son of God?



I believe there was probably a man named Jesus.  I don't believe he was and did everything the NT claims.  I believe that in the 70+ years it took for those things to be recorded and written, things were changed and embellished upon.  And, I highly doubt that, being a Jew, he would have ever thought he would evolve into what Christians worship him as today.  He would probably be flabbergasted and ashamed of what has been done and continues to be done in his name.  And he would be horrified that anyone would believe that he was God.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Sep 23, 2008)

pnome said:


> Who knows? Maybe that Large Hadron Collider experiment will tell us.


 

There will only more questions from this experiment... because there always has to be a smaller particle, unless we are essentially made up of nothingness...

DB BB


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Sep 23, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> I have them all so far DVR'ed and have watched the first 2, it is just simply amazing, the complexity of the human body, personally I don't see how anyone could see this complexity and still not believe in atleast a god, maybe not my God, but atleast a god...
> 
> DB BB



I agree.
But I'm also willing to admit that my thoughts on that are because I don't have a better answer.  So I can't discount pnome's reasoning for not believing in a god, either. 

There is so much we don't know and don't understand, and may never.  I can remember back when, not that many years ago, protons and neutrons were thought to be the smallest particles.  We now know that's not true.  What else down the road we still haven't found out yet? Only time will tell....

Our idea of there being life and death is because that is all we know.  But who's to say there aren't other states of 'being'?  I'm open to the idea that there is an afterlife.  But I'm not going to try and convince myself of it just to make me feel better while I'm here on earth.  I would rather admit that I don't know than to lie to myself.  Besides, I don't know that I could lie to myself even if I wanted to.  That's how I ended up leaving Christianity in the first place


----------



## duckcrazy (Sep 23, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I already knew that, but thanks
> 
> That doesn't change the argument.  Yes, they can date floods.  In fact they have found evidence of a monumental catastrophic flood in the Sumerian area that dates back thousands of years. I saw a whole show on it on the History channel a while back.  So, the "epic' of Gilgamesh does have possible valid backing.  However, a worldwide flood has yet to been even remotely proven.
> 
> ...



I watched the same program as you did on the history channel. We both know how they explained it relating to Noah. How do you feel about this? I personally don't believe that everything in the Bible is to be taken litteral, so it works fine for me.


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Sep 23, 2008)

duckcrazy said:


> I watched the same program as you did on the history channel. We both know how they explained it relating to Noah. How do you feel about this? I personally don't believe that everything in the Bible is to be taken litteral, so it works fine for me.



Honestly, I don't remember them mentioning anything about Noah.  I may have missed that part.  Maybe it will come on  again and I can rewatch it.  I had it saved on my DVR but something happened to the hard drive on it and it wiped out all of my saved shows   Which really bites because I had some great stuff saved on there from the History, Discovery and Science channels.  Like a few weeks ago the Science channel had something on there about some underground volcano type things in the deepest depths of the ocean where they found some sort of creature that had DNA similar to that of a human.  I only caught parts of it because I was working at the time, so I wanted to go back and watch it again, but it's gone now     Maybe they'll show that again soon too....


----------



## gtparts (Sep 23, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Either I am not understanding you or you have your time line mixed up.  Are you saying the Noah flood occurred in 9500 - 10,000 BC?   (6000 BC + the 4500 years earlier you claim)
> 
> Actually it doesn't matter... either way, my answer would be no.  Sumerian and Egyptian language predates Hebrew (at least, based on when writing systems were developed).  Mesopotamia at 6000 BC still predates the time of the bible.  Estimates based on the bible put the beginning of civilization around 4000 years ago.  Pretty big gap there if you ask me.....



You need to catch up girl.

 First 3500 BC (writing first appeared in Sumer) + 4500 (earlier) = 8000 BC. (the approx. date of the flood). So how did the story get passed along for about 4500 yrs without writing?  The answer is oral tradition; parent to child, teacher to student. 

Mesopotamia is a geographical area so it indeed predates the writing of the Bible. But though Sumer, the city dates from approx. 6000 BC, it does not predate the flood. The flood occurred approx. 8000 BC, 2000 yrs. before the Sumerian civilization existed and 4500 yrs before Sumerians started writing.  

Again , I would suggest to you that the Sumerian origins of the Gilgamesh account are from the oral traditions of Noah and his sons who survived the flood 4500 yrs. earlier than Sumerians started writing. 

Peace be unto you  and yours.


----------



## gtparts (Sep 23, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I agree.
> But I'm also willing to admit that my thoughts on that are because I don't have a better answer.  So I can't discount pnome's reasoning for not believing in a god, either.
> 
> There is so much we don't know and don't understand, and may never.  I can remember back when, not that many years ago, protons and neutrons were thought to be the smallest particles.  We now know that's not true.  What else down the road we still haven't found out yet? Only time will tell....
> ...



Is there a purpose to your existence? And if so, might you be so kind as to tell me what it is? Inquiring minds want to know. 

pnome, you chime in too, if you like.

If the end of this life is nothing and you have no purpose, why "stick around for the drawing"?


----------



## Banjo (Sep 23, 2008)

How about a standard for right and wrong?  From where do you derive it....


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Sep 23, 2008)

gtparts said:


> You need to catch up girl.
> 
> First 3500 BC (writing first appeared in Sumer) + 4500 (earlier) = 8000 BC. (the approx. date of the flood). So how did the story get passed along for about 4500 yrs without writing?  The answer is oral tradition; parent to child, teacher to student.
> 
> ...



I'm sorry, but your timeline is off, therefore so is the logic behind it.

If you state the flood happened approximately 8000 BC, and since the bible puts Noah being born around 2700 BC, there's no way the story could be about him, since the flood would have happened about 5300 years before he was born.

I believe Gilgamesh came first.


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Sep 23, 2008)

Banjo said:


> How about a standard for right and wrong?  From where do you derive it....



I'm not sure what you're suggesting here... that someone must believe in God in order to have a standard of right and wrong?

The American Indians (of whom much of their blood runs through my veins) knew nothing of your bible or your god.  But they certainly had an idea for a standard of right and wrong.  And they were certainly wronged (by men who called themselves Christians, no less...).  But that is for another thread.


----------



## Banjo (Sep 23, 2008)

My question is how do you decide what is wrong and what is right?  Do you think murder is wrong?  Why?  How about lying?  Why?  etc.


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Sep 23, 2008)

gtparts said:


> Is there a purpose to your existence? And if so, might you be so kind as to tell me what it is? Inquiring minds want to know.
> 
> pnome, you chime in too, if you like.
> 
> If the end of this life is nothing and you have no purpose, why "stick around for the drawing"?




Are you suggesting that if one doesn't believe in God or the afterlife, they should just 'off' themselves?


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Sep 23, 2008)

Banjo said:


> My question is how do you decide what is wrong and what is right?  Do you think murder is wrong?  Why?  How about lying?  Why?  etc.



Does it really matter?
I mean, Christians are told by their book that those things are wrong, yet they still do it.
So what difference does it make? Even when you are told it's wrong, that doesn't stop you from doing it.


----------



## Banjo (Sep 23, 2008)

I think that you know it does matter.  

Are you or are you not your own standard for living?  Do you decide for yourself what is right and what is wrong?

Why won't you answer the question?


----------



## dawg2 (Sep 23, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I believe there was probably a man named Jesus.  I don't believe he was and did everything the NT claims.  I believe that in the 70+ years it took for those things to be recorded and written, things were changed and embellished upon.  And, I highly doubt that, being a Jew, he would have ever thought he would evolve into what Christians worship him as today.  He would probably be flabbergasted and ashamed of what has been done and continues to be done in his name.  And he would be horrified that anyone would believe that he was God.


That is what the Muslims say too.


----------



## gtparts (Sep 23, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I'm sorry, but your timeline is off, therefore so is the logic behind it.
> 
> If you state the flood happened approximately 8000 BC, and since the bible puts Noah being born around 2700 BC, there's no way the story could be about him, since the flood would have happened about 5300 years before he was born.
> 
> I believe Gilgamesh came first.




Sure would like to see where you get a 2700 BC date for Noah.


----------



## dawg2 (Sep 23, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I'm not sure what you're suggesting here... that someone must believe in God in order to have a standard of right and wrong?
> 
> The American Indians (of whom much of their blood runs through my veins) knew nothing of your bible or your god.  But they certainly had an idea for a standard of right and wrong.  And they were certainly wronged (by men who called themselves Christians, no less...).  But that is for another thread.



Beat you to it  See post 1 & 6

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=240321


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Sep 23, 2008)

Banjo said:


> I think that you know it does matter.
> 
> Are you or are you not your own standard for living?  Do you decide for yourself what is right and what is wrong?
> 
> Why won't you answer the question?



Ummm, huh?
Are you saying the only way we have a standard for living is the bible?  Guess that's why Cain killed Abel... he didn't get to read the book   Poor Eve too, if only she had the bible to read, maybe the 'fall of man' would have never happened.

I suppose I do set my own standard for living.  I think lying is acceptable in some cases.  I even think murder is acceptable in some cases.

But like I said, it really doesn't matter.  Because even with you being given the 'standard' to live by, you don't.  And really, how can you, given the example you have to go by in the bible?  Here you have a god that tells you it is wrong to murder, and yet he tells people to go out and make war with others, killing and destroying people, including women and children.  Do as I say, not as I do?  

Let's face it... civilizations are no better today than they were before the bible was invented.  The same stuff still goes on... lying, adultery, murder, robbery, all of it.  So apparently the bible... or, more appropriately, religion,  hasn't done anything to better humanity over the ages.  If anything, in many cases, it has done a lot to make it worse.


----------



## RackNBeardOutdoors (Sep 23, 2008)

onemilmhz said:


> I am a Christian, though not a very good one.  I say that because I believe Christ is my Saviour but I fall very short of living up to the debt.  That being said, my post will, of course, seem biased.
> 
> For those of you who don't believe in an entity capable of creation, in my opinion, the one true God, how do you explain the complexities of the human being?  That is, the circulatory system?  The nervous system?  The respiratory system?  Skeletal and muscular structure?  Do you believe that our complexities are simply a matter of cosmic accident?  If so, do you believe it happened over and over again, thousands of times until we had all the animal species of the world?  And if so, do you believe it happened again with all the plant species?  Photosynthesis, pollination, etc.?  I could go one but I believe my point is made.
> 
> Now, taking into account you believe all this happened by mere coincidence, nothing more that a galactic hiccup, how then do you explain why we as human beings have an entirely different level of consciousness than say dogs, cats, fish, snakes, and even primates?  Why didn't that accident also extend to them?  I am in no way trying to belittle your beliefs or theologies.  I honestly want to know.





I'm glad you wrote that, that is what I was trying to say, but you made it alot clearer


----------



## gtparts (Sep 23, 2008)

*Absolutely not !*



Dixie Dawg said:


> Are you suggesting that if one doesn't believe in God or the afterlife, they should just 'off' themselves?



I think that if one has no purpose and no hope in this life (or the next), living has no meaning and inevitably depression and despair would overtake that person. If I am wrong in this , why is the suicide rate climbing so rapidly?

I personally have dealt with the question of purpose.... and hope for this life and the next. I have been given a peace that many on this forum share through faith in Jesus. Because of where I am in my journey such negative feelings are non-issues. I merely wondered whether these were issues or non-issues for the atheist (which you are not by your own words) or the agnostic (which again you indicate you are not).  Never the less, you seem to only be partially committed to a nebulous impersonal energy. I find that curious and rather unreassuring.

But the question I posed has not been answered by you or pnome.

Peace be to you and yours


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Sep 23, 2008)

gtparts said:


> I think that if one has no purpose and no hope in this life (or the next), living has no meaning and inevitably depression and despair would overtake that person. If I am wrong in this , why is the suicide rate climbing so rapidly?
> 
> I personally have dealt with the question of purpose.... and hope for this life and the next. I have been given a peace that many on this forum share through faith in Jesus. Because of where I am in my journey such negative feelings are non-issues. I merely wondered whether these were issues or non-issues for the atheist (which you are not by your own words) or the agnostic (which again you indicate you are not).  Never the less, you seem to only be partially committed to a nebulous impersonal energy. I find that curious and rather unreassuring.
> 
> ...



I think you need to go back and read my posts again.  I have stated a number of times in the last 2 days that I AM agnostic.  I believe in a creator.  

I don't necessarily think that life has to have a 'purpose'.  I don't live this life hoping that I do what I should for the next one. I live it for what it is.. THIS life.

See, that's one of the many differences between the religious and people like me.  You do good because you want to please your god.  If I do something good for someone else, it's because I want to... I want to make them feel good and myself.  I don't have to have some sort of promise of riches in heaven or a good seat on the bus in the next life... it's for right here and right now.  My lack of faith in the bible or in Jesus has nothing to do with whether or not I have a conscience or 'morals' or a sense of right or wrong, or compassion.   

And, I know this may tick off some people, but the truth is, I know that while many Christians like to say they do the 'right' thing because they love God, the truth is that they do it because they're afraid of he**.  Know how I know this? Because anytime someone starts grilling another person about not believing in Jesus or God, they don't answer with anything about doing it because God loves them, they start right in with how they are in danger of the hot spot.  

Go ahead and tell me that I'm wrong...  heck I'll even say it for you.. I'm totally wrong in thinking that...  it's ok, it doesn't really matter, because the truth is, God knows the truth, so even if someone can lie to themselves or lie to someone else, you can't lie to God.


----------



## holton27596 (Sep 23, 2008)

"Purpose". My purpose in life is to hunt, fish, and be happy, and not to spend my time worrying about whether or not some "sinner" is going to h. From what I have seen I am far happier and better adjusted than the religous folks any where ive worked.


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## Dixie Dawg (Sep 23, 2008)

gtparts said:


> Never the less, you seem to only be partially committed to a nebulous impersonal energy. I find that curious and rather unreassuring.




Maybe so... but I would rather be unsure and wonder about what happens when one dies, than to believe in a lie just to make myself feel better.  I'd rather have the idea that, what if all religions are wrong and there is no life after death?  That means you make the most of today and the life you have now!  Guess I just don't have a 'glass half empty' outlook on life, sorry.  Don't live for tomorrow, because tomorrow may never come.  I have the same theory for eternity.  Don't live for eternity, because there may be nothing after your  last breath.  Live for today, live for right now.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 23, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Go ahead and tell me that I'm wrong...  .




OK, You're wrong. 

I'm just kidding.  I do things for other people because God has instilled in me a sense of how he views them.  In other words, it pleases me to do things that please him.

He as instilled in me a compassion for people that wasn't there before.  BELIEVE ME....IT WASN'T THERE!!!!  So, you see, I don't do things just to 'please him' or to keep me from going to the big hot place...I do good things for people because God loves me and that love flows through me to others....LIKE YOU


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 23, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Don't live for eternity, because there may be nothing after your  last breath.  Live for today, live for right now.



I think you make a good point.  Too many Christians, IMO, live for eternity.  We are fond of saying things like "I can't WAIT until I die!  I get to see Jesus!"

Let me tell you something.  I love Jesus as much as anybody.  But I don't want to die anytime soon.  For the Christian, God put us here for a purpose (you might say, for a "Purpose Driven Life"....HA!!!).  Why on earth (no pun intended) would we live like we don't care what happens while we are here?  

This life is a gift that we are all too often ready to give up.


----------



## gtparts (Sep 23, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I think you need to go back and read my posts again.  I have stated a number of times in the last 2 days that I AM agnostic.  I believe in a creator.
> 
> I don't necessarily think that life has to have a 'purpose'.  I don't live this life hoping that I do what I should for the next one. I live it for what it is.. THIS life.
> 
> ...




 I'm at a loss to understand.

1) On the one hand you say you pray.

2) You also say you are agnostic, one who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.

3) You also say that you believe in a creator.

Numbers 1 and 3 indicate you are a theist.
Number 2 indicates you can not know if there is or isn't a God.

DD, you are more confused than I am.

Do you pray? To what or whom? Or is it wishful thinking with no hope of a response?

Throw this ol' dog a bone cause I don't get it.

I'll keep praying for you. And you can't stop me.



Peace be unto you and yours.


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Sep 23, 2008)

gtparts said:


> I'm at a loss to understand.
> 
> 1) On the one hand you say you pray.
> 
> ...



  You are welcome to pray for me...it certainly can't hurt 

I consider myself an agnostic, because my idea of 'god' is not the same as a theist (I don't necessarily believe in a 'personal' god).  "An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist."   I believe that something created us, but I don't necessarily believe it's a 'god'.  It could be a mass of energy that we came from, and once our bodies die, our energy returns to the source.  I don't know.  I have no proof either way.

I know it can be confusing, but that's because for some reason religious people feel a need to classify or put everything in a nice neat box.  And most of the time, you just can't.  Labels are much too confining


----------



## gtparts (Sep 23, 2008)

DD, Just had a wonderful thought. Why not pray to God to reveal the Truth of His Word to you. Just a simple, " God, I want to know you the way you want to be known. Help me sort through all the garbage men have piled on You and the Truth which eludes me. Help me see that which you have prepared for me, lift me out of this life I have built of and for myself.  I have tried to hide from You by setting myself against You. I have been hurt by others and have blamed you. I was wrong. I do believe in You. Help my unbelief. Amen.


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Sep 23, 2008)

gtparts said:


> DD, Just had a wonderful thought. Why not pray to God to reveal the Truth of His Word to you. Just a simple, " God, I want to know you the way you want to be known. Help me sort through all the garbage men have piled on You and the Truth which eludes me. Help me see that which you have prepared for me, lift me out of this life I have built of and for myself.  I have tried to hide from You by setting myself against You. I have been hurt by others and have blamed you. I was wrong. I do believe in You. Help my unbelief. Amen.



I did that before I left Christianity.  Begged, pleaded, prayed, you name it, for him to tell me if I was making the wrong decision, if Christianity really was the 'way', if I was wrong for doubting.

Obviously, I didn't hear from him.


----------



## gtparts (Sep 23, 2008)

*Ms.D Dawg*



Dixie Dawg said:


> I did that before I left Christianity.  Begged, pleaded, prayed, you name it, for him to tell me if I was making the wrong decision, if Christianity really was the 'way', if I was wrong for doubting.
> 
> Obviously, I didn't hear from him.



Were you ever taught how to listen?  Did He speak and you did not like His answer? God does not reckon time as we do. Were you impatient? You see, it is not about giving God another opportunity to  make things right for you. It's about you giving yourself another opportunity to do things God's way. He loves you very much and I think it's about time you did yourself a big favor. He has not been far away. He has been watching and protecting you all this time, waiting for you. Try it on His terms.

Peace be unto you and yours.


----------



## Randy (Sep 23, 2008)

You have to have faith before you can hear.  Without faith you might as well not ask.


----------



## duckcrazy (Sep 23, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Honestly, I don't remember them mentioning anything about Noah.  I may have missed that part.  Maybe it will come on  again and I can rewatch it.  I had it saved on my DVR but something happened to the hard drive on it and it wiped out all of my saved shows   Which really bites because I had some great stuff saved on there from the History, Discovery and Science channels.  Like a few weeks ago the Science channel had something on there about some underground volcano type things in the deepest depths of the ocean where they found some sort of creature that had DNA similar to that of a human.  I only caught parts of it because I was working at the time, so I wanted to go back and watch it again, but it's gone now     Maybe they'll show that again soon too....



Maybe we were not watching the same program but it sounded similar. They were discussing a major flood that happens in mesopotamia very few thousand years. They made the point that to these people living in the region, they had little knowledge of anything outside of the region. They suggested that they would have viewed this as a world wide flood because of lack of communication and travel. It was also backed up with evidence of a flood that would have been very close to Noah's time(we both know time lines are not exact until later in history and can vary a few decades or so). Basically they were saying that the biblical story could have happened, but maybe not exactly as in the Bible. That brings me back to the point that I don't feel that the Bible is not all to be taken literally. I think we can both agree that does not mean none of it is true. Which ultimately brings me to the question: Is there anything that is in the Bible (if not taken all literally) that would keep you from following it's teachings? I know that there are people that call themselves Christian's that ultimately do not act or follow the teachings in the Bible. These people made me question the religion myself once. I finally decided that I could not let these people keep me from God. I found that if we put our faith in people we will always be disappointed. So I decided to put my faith in God. You said you believe in energies. That's your choice and I respect that. I guess I am wondering if not for the way people act, is there something else about the christian religion that turns you away. Sorry I am so long winded.


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Sep 23, 2008)

duckcrazy said:


> Maybe we were not watching the same program but it sounded similar. They were discussing a major flood that happens in mesopotamia very few thousand years. They made the point that to these people living in the region, they had little knowledge of anything outside of the region. They suggested that they would have viewed this as a world wide flood because of lack of communication and travel. It was also backed up with evidence of a flood that would have been very close to Noah's time(we both know time lines are not exact until later in history and can vary a few decades or so). Basically they were saying that the biblical story could have happened, but maybe not exactly as in the Bible.



It must have been a different show, the one I watched mostly focused on the Gilgamesh thing and the flood...  but I would like to see the one you saw as well. I find all kinds of archaeology fascinating, especially biblical archaeology.





> That brings me back to the point that I don't feel that the Bible is not all to be taken literally. I think we can both agree that does not mean none of it is true. Which ultimately brings me to the question: Is there anything that is in the Bible (if not taken all literally) that would keep you from following it's teachings?



Yes.  The idea that God ever came to earth as a man.  I'm pretty sure the acceptance of that is required for Christianity 



> I know that there are people that call themselves Christian's that ultimately do not act or follow the teachings in the Bible. These people made me question the religion myself once. I finally decided that I could not let these people keep me from God. I found that if we put our faith in people we will always be disappointed. So I decided to put my faith in God. You said you believe in energies. That's your choice and I respect that. I guess I am wondering if not for the way people act, is there something else about the christian religion that turns you away. Sorry I am so long winded.



While I admit that people can make a difference in attitudes, I wouldn't say that I let their actions decide for me which path religiously I will take.  I know people are human and are going to make mistakes, do what they say they won't and fail miserably.  Myself included.  

My rejection of the Christian religion can be summed up mainly with this (although this is definitely not a complete list!  ) :
1. It doesn't match up with the "Old Testament".
2. It claims to be the only way for 'salvation'.
3. It claims God came to earth as a man and died.

You're not long-winded, I appreciate your question and response


----------



## Banjo (Sep 23, 2008)

> Yes. The idea that God ever came to earth as a man. I'm pretty sure the acceptance of that is required for Christianity



The most beautiful demonstration of love that has EVER been exhibited on this earth.  Jesus, the god-man who knew no sin, through his death and resurrection, incurred the wrath of God so that His people could have a relationship with Him.  

Christ bore my burden and paid my debt at Calvary.  When I die and stand before the Lord, instead of seeing a filthy sinner, He will see His Son's robes of righteousness.  I will take my place among those who have gone before me and spend eternity praising His name for what He has done for me.


----------



## fishnguy (Sep 23, 2008)

This has been an interesting read! Huntinfool, you keep praying that God will do for "those" what he did for you. I know that He is willing! I'll pray that "they" do as you did!


----------



## duckcrazy (Sep 23, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> It must have been a different show, the one I watched mostly focused on the Gilgamesh thing and the flood...  but I would like to see the one you saw as well. I find all kinds of archaeology fascinating, especially biblical archaeology.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fair enough. I am a very open minded christian that loves finding out what others believe. I feel that the better I understand others and why they think the way they do, the better we can all get along. I have often confronted others in my church when they call other religions, etc. a cult without even finding out what they truly believe. Too many people go by what they have heard all of their lives without checking it out for themselves. I hope to be able to converse with my fellow American Indian again.


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Sep 23, 2008)

Banjo said:


> The most beautiful demonstration of love that has EVER been exhibited on this earth.  Jesus, the god-man who knew no sin, through his death and resurrection, incurred the wrath of God so that His people could have a relationship with Him.



I've read the NT.  Jesus definitely sinned.  But that's for another thread.


----------



## Ronnie T (Sep 23, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I've read the NT.  Jesus definitely sinned.  But that's for another thread.




That's a lie.  Jesus never sinned.  Never   Never.

I know you like to show off but if I were you I think I would rephrase that statement a little bit.  Just in case.

But that's for another thread.


----------



## dawg2 (Sep 23, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> That's a lie.  Jesus never sinned.  Never   Never.
> 
> I know you like to show off but if I were you I think I would rephrase that statement a little bit.  Just in case.
> 
> But that's for another thread.



whoa......I think he lost his temper in the temple


----------



## duckcrazy (Sep 23, 2008)

"Chanting" Start the thread. Start the thread. Start the thread.
Bet that gets alot of hits.  Why did it take me so long to find this forum? I love it!


----------



## dawg2 (Sep 23, 2008)

duckcrazy said:


> "Chanting" Start the thread. Start the thread. Start the thread.
> Bet that gets alot of hits.  Why did it take me so long to find this forum? I love it!



Just provide a link here


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## PWalls (Sep 23, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> whoa......I think he lost his temper in the temple



So. You think Jesus Christ sinned? The Son of God sinned? If so, then He was not a perfect sacrifice. If so, then everything He did on the cross was in vain.

DD is baiting as she does and has done in the past. RonnieT just responded like I am sure most Christians on here would at a flagrant insult/insinuation.


----------



## pnome (Sep 23, 2008)

onemilmhz said:


> I am a Christian, though not a very good one.  I say that because I believe Christ is my Saviour but I fall very short of living up to the debt.  That being said, my post will, of course, seem biased.
> 
> For those of you who don't believe in an entity capable of creation, in my opinion, the one true God, how do you explain the complexities of the human being?  That is, the circulatory system?  The nervous system?  The respiratory system?  Skeletal and muscular structure?  Do you believe that our complexities are simply a matter of cosmic accident?  If so, do you believe it happened over and over again, thousands of times until we had all the animal species of the world?  And if so, do you believe it happened again with all the plant species?  Photosynthesis, pollination, etc.?  I could go one but I believe my point is made.
> 
> Now, taking into account you believe all this happened by mere coincidence, nothing more that a galactic hiccup, how then do you explain why we as human beings have an entirely different level of consciousness than say dogs, cats, fish, snakes, and even primates?  Why didn't that accident also extend to them?  I am in no way trying to belittle your beliefs or theologies.  I honestly want to know.



Sorry that I have missed this post until now.  

Evolution does not work "by chance"   I think you are misunderstanding natural selection.   Complex organisms are not created without reason.  We evolved our amazing eyes, legs, whatever because it gave us a survival advantage.  Not random at all.


----------



## dawg2 (Sep 23, 2008)

PWalls said:


> So. You think Jesus Christ sinned? The Son of God sinned? If so, then He was not a perfect sacrifice. If so, then everything He did on the cross was in vain.
> 
> DD is baiting as she does and has done in the past. RonnieT just responded like I am sure most Christians on here would at a flagrant insult/insinuation.



I know what DD is doing/saying...
One question:

Did Jesus lose his temper at the temple?


----------



## PWalls (Sep 23, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> I know what DD is doing/saying...
> One question:
> 
> Did Jesus lose his temper at the temple?



No. I do not think that He did. He removed the people that were sinning. When you lose your temper, you are directing hateful anger at someone. So, no, I don't think Jesus did that.

Where in the Bible does it say that He "lost His temper"?

Sure, there are some popular movies that show Him throwing stuff and all that, but that is just Hollywood in my opinion.

Answer my question: Do you think Jesus sinned or was even capable of sinning?


----------



## dawg2 (Sep 23, 2008)

PWalls said:


> No. I do not think that He did. He removed the people that were sinning. When you lose your temper, you are directing hateful anger at someone. So, no, I don't think Jesus did that.
> 
> Where in the Bible does it say that He "lost His temper"?
> 
> ...



Maybe this is 

Matthew 21:12-13 (New American Standard Bible)

12 And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves.
13 And He said to them, “It is written, ‘MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER’; but you are making it a ROBBERS’ DEN.”

John 2:13-16
13 The Passover of the Jews was near, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

14 And He found in the temple those who were selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables.

15 And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables;

16 and to those who were selling the doves He said, “Take these things away; stop making My Father’s house a place of business.”


...just putting that out for discussion....scourge and all...


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## PWalls (Sep 23, 2008)

Again. Didn't say He lost his temper or had hateful anger. He simply showed them some righteous wrath. 

You didn't answer my question.


----------



## dawg2 (Sep 23, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Again. Didn't say He lost his temper or had hateful anger. He simply showed them some righteous wrath.
> 
> You didn't answer my question.



Righteous wrath  I used to hide from my dad's belt, I wouldn't come home if he had a scourge

The Bible never said He sinned, but it does say he whipped some butts with a scourge and flipped over tables & chairs


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## Ronnie T (Sep 23, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> I know what DD is doing/saying...
> One question:
> 
> Did Jesus lose his temper at the temple?




In the temple, Jesus responded to evil.  He responded appropriately as he wished.  God responded to Egypt for not releasing His people by bringing some horrible things upon their nation, but He did not sin.

I responded when someone stated that Jesus had sinned because it was an evil statement and it was an evil act.


----------



## PWalls (Sep 23, 2008)

I could hide. I could run. But, my dad always caught me. 

Yes or no. Do you think He ever sinned?


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Sep 23, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> That's a lie.  Jesus never sinned.  Never   Never.
> 
> I know you like to show off but if I were you I think I would rephrase that statement a little bit.  Just in case.
> 
> But that's for another thread.



I'm not 'showing off'. And I'm not going to rephrase anything.  My statement comes from evidence right out of your own bible.

Yes, Jesus did sin.
Matthew 12:1-6 states: "At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat. But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day."   Same incident is in Mark 2:23-28 and Luke 6:1-5.


According to the Law... 
Exodus 20:2-17, Exodus 34:12-26, and Deuteronomy 5:6-21 all contain prohibitions against working on Saturday, the Sabbath day.  For example, Exodus 8:8-11 states:

"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work...For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

Deuteronomy 5:21 states that on the sabbath, "in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest." Jews were prohibited from harvesting crops or preparing a meal on the Sabbath; observant Jews still are. Exodus 35:2 states: ...but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. 

Numbers 15:32-36 described a man who was executed because he gathered wood on Saturday -- perhaps to keep his family from freezing from the cold.

Now, since Jesus himself tells his followers to obey the Law, it isn't that he doesn't know what the Law is. As a Jew, he would have been taught from birth that the Sabbath was a day of rest, and how even during the exile they were instructed to collect double portions of manna on Friday so that they would have enough on Saturday to eat.  But as the verses in the NT show, he went against the Law by not observing the Sabbath.

That's only one instance.  There are others, but one is enough.


----------



## dawg2 (Sep 23, 2008)

PWalls said:


> I could hide. I could run. But, my dad always caught me.
> 
> Yes or no. Do you think He ever sinned?



See post 150.  Second line


----------



## PWalls (Sep 23, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> See post 150.  Second line



It's like pulling teeth around here somedays.


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Sep 23, 2008)

PWalls said:


> No. I do not think that He did. He removed the people that were sinning.




The people at the temple weren't sinning.
I'm headed to bed but I'll be happy to expand on this tomorrow.
Nite!


----------



## PWalls (Sep 23, 2008)

Really?

It is my understanding that they were laundering money or selling wares in the outer courts. That was the place allotted to the Gentiles to worship. Those Gentiles (like the Ethopian Eunuch) would not have been able to properly offer their sacrifies or worship God as He designed it because of those money launderers. Ergo and therfore, they were "sinning" by keeping those Gentiles from their rightful place of worship.

Good night. I am heading in as well.


----------



## dawg2 (Sep 23, 2008)

PWalls said:


> It's like pulling teeth around here somedays.



I have all mine...see:  



Fine:  NO


----------



## dawg2 (Sep 23, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> The people at the temple weren't sinning.
> I'm headed to bed but I'll be happy to expand on this tomorrow.
> Nite!





PWalls said:


> Really?
> 
> It is my understanding that they were laundering money or selling wares in the outer courts. That was the place allotted to the Gentiles to worship. Those Gentiles (like the Ethopian Eunuch) would not have been able to properly offer their sacrifies or worship God as He designed it because of those money launderers. Ergo and therfore, they were "sinning" by keeping those Gentiles from their rightful place of worship.
> 
> Good night. I am heading in as well.




Buncha quitters


----------



## PWalls (Sep 23, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Fine:  NO



Amen Brother. Now, that wasn't so hard was it? 

G'night.


----------



## Ronnie T (Sep 23, 2008)

Jesus didn't go against the Law.  Jesus went against the traditions.

Dixie Dawg,  I know you for who you are based on what you are doing here on this forum.  You are doing the work of the Devil and it is working.  I've noticed some of the Christians even taking up for you.  But that doesn't mean your comments and bleeps aren't ungodly and provoking to God.
You are up to no good.  And you will, as usual, partially succeed.  But many of us understand you.  I am not impressed with you.  I know your purpose.

This will be my last response to a personal comment by you.  There are plenty of others here who will feed your ego and evil mission.
I withdraw my pearls.


----------



## dawg2 (Sep 23, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Amen Brother. Now, that wasn't so hard was it?
> 
> G'night.



Say your "Hail Marys"


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Sep 23, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> Jesus didn't go against the Law.  Jesus went against the traditions.



Doing no work on the sabbath is a LAW, given by God to Moses, not a 'tradition'.  I even gave you the verses in the "old testament' where to find it.  I'm sorry if it throws a wrench in your theology, but it is what it is.  Moses didn't write the Law.  GOD did.



> Dixie Dawg,  I know you for who you are based on what you are doing here on this forum.  You are doing the work of the Devil and it is working.  I've noticed some of the Christians even taking up for you.  But that doesn't mean your comments and bleeps aren't ungodly and provoking to God.
> You are up to no good.  And you will, as usual, partially succeed.  But many of us understand you.  I am not impressed with you.  I know your purpose.
> 
> This will be my last response to a personal comment by you.  There are plenty of others here who will feed your ego and evil mission.
> I withdraw my pearls.




Well aaaaaaaalllllllllrighty then!


----------



## duckcrazy (Sep 23, 2008)

I started a new thread "Did Jesus sin?" to get others involved. Feel free to move over if ya'll like. Completely up to ya'll.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 24, 2008)

I'll go to the thread.  But PWalls...yes, Jesus WAS capable of sinning.  If he wasn't, then he wasn't both fully God and fully man.  

Man is capable of sinning.  Did he sin?  Well, I suppose that's for the other thread.


----------



## gtparts (Sep 24, 2008)

pnome said:


> Sorry that I have missed this post until now.
> 
> Evolution does not work "by chance"   I think you are misunderstanding natural selection.   Complex organisms are not created without reason.  We evolved our amazing eyes, legs, whatever because it gave us a survival advantage.  Not random at all.



Just another example of reverse engineering?

Just because an animal without any sight organs could benefit from having them, nature decided to develop them?

Because binocular vision is superior to monocular, nature decided to skip the Cyclopic phase of evolution? 

Why haven't humans developed at least one eye in the back of our skulls? I would think that would be useful for survival.

For an atheist you sure like the words "created" and "reason".
  "Complex organisms are not created without reason."  (see quoted post above)

Your use of the double negative ("not" and "without") would make it grammatically correct to say, "Complex organisms are created with reason.".

I just love it when anyone acknowledges intelligent design.

Thanks, pnome!

Peace be to you and yours.


----------



## cerich (Sep 24, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> pnome, why do you visit this sight.  Do you come as a believer in God or do you come as a servant of Satan?  You come as one or the other.  There is no neutral.



any chance he comes as somebody who loves the outdoors?

no neutral...hmmmm, that is the same point of view expressed by the Tailban.


----------



## pnome (Sep 24, 2008)

gtparts said:


> Just another example of reverse engineering?
> 
> Because having  an animal without any sight organs could benefit from having them, nature decided to develop them?
> 
> ...




Where to start?  

First, I will admit my grammar is not the best.   

Second, if an eye in the back of our heads would be useful for survival, why didn't god put one there? 

Third, not all genes that are useful for survival are passed on.  Natural Selection does not always choose the best survival option.  Ask a peacock about how useful it's tail fan is.  

Fourth, poor choice of words on my part.  Let me rephrase: Complex organisms do not evolve randomly.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 24, 2008)

pnome said:


> Ask a peacock about how useful it's tail fan is.
> [/COLOR].



Actually, it's pretty useful man.  It's the primary means they use to "impress the ladies".  Pretty tought to reproduce without a means to attract a mate.


----------



## rjcruiser (Sep 24, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> I have some reference materials that I will provide....not with me though as I don't have my library at work   But there have been many archeological finds that predate or substantiate the dates of the Bible.



Oh boy...I get busy at work, can't write something for a bit, and this thread has taken more turns than a person lost in Atlanta.  And as much as this doesn't seem like it matters anymore, I wanted to post for those who doubt and those who don't.  But again I am reminded, we are justified by faith, and if you didn't have to have any faith, it wouldn't be true Christianity.

Per Dr. J Barton Payne (author of Encyclopedia of Bible Prophecy) 8,352 of the Bible's 31,124 verses are predictive.  When the duplicates are removed, 1,817 predictions are in the Bible.

Just a few prophecies or predictions that came true.

Ezekiel 26:1-21 predicted that the city of Tyre would be destroyed beyond it being rebuilt.  It was first by Nebuchadnezzar (585-573 BC) and then again by Alexander the Great (332 BC)

The length of Israel's captivity (lasting for 70 years) was foretold by the prophet Jeremiah (Jer 29:10) and fulfilled (2 Chron 36:21).  The role of the Persian King Cyrus in Israel's release from captivity was depicted by Isaiah more than a century beforehand (Isaiah 44:28-45:7)

That Israel would reject her Messiah (Is 53:1-12), that the temple would be destroyed (Dan 9:24-27; Matt 24:1-2) and that the Jews would be dispersed around the world (Deut 28:64, 30:3).  Even Israel's recent return to the land was foretold by the prophets (Ezekiel 36:22-24)

Again, I bring up Daniel.  There are over 100 prophecies alone in the 11th chapter.  And the detail of this history is so precise that many critics argue that it couldn't have been written beforehand, but rather afterward and give it a date of around the 2nd century BC.  However, OT scholar Gleason Archer (a PhD from Harvard) explains:
"The linguistic evidence from Qumran makes the rationalistic explanation for Daniel no longer tenable [i.e., that it was written after the events it predicts].  It is difficult to see how any scholar can defend this view and maintain intellectual respectability....There is no evading the conclusion that the prophecies of the Book of Daniel were inspired by the same God who later fulfilled them, or who will fulfill them in the last days (Archer, Encyclopledia of Bible Difficulties, 24-26)."

Also, Hebrew professor Bruce K. Waltke (another PhD from Harvard) reveals why critical scholarship is unwilling to accept the actual date of Daniel's authorship--in the sixth century B.C.--even after linguistic and archeaological evidence has confirmed it.  "If evidence for a 6th century date of composition is so certian, why do scholars reject it in favor of an unsupportable Maccabean hypothesis?  The reason is that most scholars embrace a liberal, naturalistic and rationalistic philosophy.  Naturalism and rationalism are ultimately based on faith rather than on evidence; therefore this faith will not allow them to accept the supernatural predictions (Waltke, "The Date of the Book of Daniel," 194-203)."

Hope this helps answer more questions than it raises.


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## gtparts (Sep 24, 2008)

*Response to pnome*



> Where to start?
> 
> First, I will admit my grammar is not the best.



If you say so, I'll not dispute you.



> Second, if an eye in the back of our heads would be useful for survival, why didn't god put one there?



I don't know. I'll ask, but for me it's kind of like the pot interrogating the potter. I do find it curious that your question assumes a "god". Are you conceding that there is or could be a "god"?



> Third, not all genes that are useful for survival are passed on.  Natural Selection does not always choose the best survival option.  Ask a peacock about how useful it's tail fan is.



I'll concede the first statement of your third response. Who is this "Natural Selection" that keeps "choosing"? Is that the name of the "god" you mentioned earlier? And NS chooses poorly sometimes? Doesn't sound too "god-like" to me. Don't you think asking a peacock anything would be absurd? And how would I know that you hadn't coached him to answer to support your view? 



> Fourth, poor choice of words on my part.  Let me rephrase: Complex organisms do not evolve randomly.



pnome, you are a gem!

Made one of my points again.

I too believe that "Complex organisms do not evolve randomly." Such changes would certainly be planned, orchestrated, or designed as opposed to random.

Got any ideas as to who the "planner" might be?

Peace unto you and yours.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 24, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> You are doing the work of the Devil and it is working.  I've noticed some of the Christians even taking up for you.



Guess that would be me.  I'll just stand up and say present! 

Dixie, since my eyes have been opened to how you're working your devil magic on me....I'm very angry with you.

BTW folks, I'm not defending what she says.  She knows I pretty much disagree with everything she believes.  That doesn't mean I can't be civil to her (and hopefully convince her otherwise).


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## pnome (Sep 24, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Actually, it's pretty useful man.  It's the primary means they use to "impress the ladies".  Pretty tought to reproduce without a means to attract a mate.



That is sort of my point.  It's only use is to attract a mate.   It has been selected, not for it's usefulness in survival, but because it is an adaptation that helps itself get passed along.


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## gtparts (Sep 24, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Oh boy...I get busy at work, can't write something for a bit, and this thread has taken more turns than a person lost in Atlanta.  And as much as this doesn't seem like it matters anymore, I wanted to post for those who doubt and those who don't.  But again I am reminded, we are justified by faith, and if you didn't have to have any faith, it wouldn't be true Christianity.
> 
> Per Dr. J Barton Payne (author of Encyclopedia of Bible Prophecy) 8,352 of the Bible's 31,124 verses are predictive.  When the duplicates are removed, 1,817 predictions are in the Bible.
> 
> ...



Thanks rj,

One would reasonably not require the balance of the 1,817 predictions to be posted here in order to conclude that the evidence points to supernatural origins for the Bible. Human intent could not plan the prophesies and orchestrate their fulfillment.

Bra-vo!  Well done!


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## pnome (Sep 24, 2008)

gtparts,

You are getting bogged down in semantics.   I think you understand my point.  But if you still have questions about how natural selection works, have a read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_Selection


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## rjcruiser (Sep 24, 2008)

gtparts said:


> Thanks rj,
> 
> One would reasonably not require the balance of the 1,817 predictions to be posted here in order to conclude that the evidence points to supernatural origins for the Bible. Human intent could not plan the prophesies and orchestrate their fulfillment.
> 
> Bra-vo!  Well done!



Thanks for the compliment, but I must give credit where credit is due.  Reading a book that gave me all of the info that I posted.  I just referenced the original docs, but if you'd like to know the book I was reading, I given it a shameless plug once before (different thread), but will give it again.

Reasons We Believe:  50 Lines of Evidence that Confirm the Christian Faith.  Written by Nathan Busenitz with the forward by John MacArthur.  See this Amazon link for preview/purchase 

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_g...+we+believe+busenitz&sprefix=Reasons+we+belie


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## gtparts (Sep 24, 2008)

pnome said:


> gtparts,
> 
> You are getting bogged down in semantics.   I think you understand my point.  But if you still have questions about how natural selection works, have a read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_Selection



Just responding to what you wrote. 

Quite familiar with natural selection. Though I did not major in biology, it was always one of my better subjects.
Natural selection is generally accepted by everyone as being a valid explanation of certain biological phenomena.
But it has no valid application in theology. For every argument on one side, another can be raised to refute it from the opposing side. It's a battle that need not be fought and can't be won. 

You can take that argument out of your cartridge belt. It's a dud.

Peace.


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## grizzlyblake (Sep 24, 2008)

Just to add to the original discussion here. I am a non believer who was raised Catholic. I merely see religion as a way for people to comfort themselves of the unknown. Religion is a catch-all way to explain anything that has no explanation.

 In ancient times there were gods for wind, sun, rain, crop growth, etc. Now that we know what causes these things we do not need a god for them. That is what I believe religion comes from.

Now the reasons that I am a non believer - I do not think that the Bible could even have a remote chance of being accurate. Lets say that the original text was the word of god, but has been translated and "tweaked" many times. Ever play the game "telephone" as a child? Ever hear a fishing story retold that was blown way out of proportion?

Also, there is a correlation between religious belief and level of intelligence in a culture or society. The more economically poorer and uneducated groups are generally much more religious. The more highly educated and prosperous societies are, as a whole, less religious.

Lastly, MY personal lack of belief comes from what I have seen in the world. Many people of strong Christian faith that have had horrible things happen to them for absolutely no reason.


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## Oldstick (Sep 24, 2008)

Off topic from the original question but I saw a couple comments in earlier posts about there being no observable or physical evidence of a supreme power such as God.  My opinion is quite the opposite.  The deeper you get into human scientific fields of study, the more you see that everything in the universe is unfathomably complex in how it works.  That is a common misconception that has science has discovered all the answers.  In almost every field of science the deeper you go you run into a dead end that is unexplainable.

And that includes the simple laws of gravity which they can measure and predict by watching objects fall and they have all the complex math equations worked out for it, they know the effects are proportional to how big the two interacting objects are, but they still have no idea where the force originates from and probably never will.


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## ambush80 (Sep 24, 2008)

greers57 said:


> Off topic from the original question but I saw a couple comments in earlier posts about there being no observable or physical evidence of a supreme power such as God.  My opinion is quite the opposite.  The deeper you get into human scientific fields of study, the more you see that everything in the universe is unfathomably complex in how it works.  That is a common misconception that has science has discovered all the answers.  In almost every field of science the deeper you go you run into a dead end that is unexplainable.
> 
> And that includes the simple laws of gravity which they can measure and predict by watching objects fall and they have all the complex math equations worked out for it, they know the effects are proportional to how big the two interacting objects are, but they still have no idea where the force originates from and probably never will.



No reason to cower like cavemen from the lightning that they don't understand.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 24, 2008)

grizzlyblake said:


> Just to add to the original discussion here. I am a non believer who was raised Catholic. I merely see religion as a way for people to comfort themselves of the unknown. Religion is a catch-all way to explain anything that has no explanation.
> 
> In ancient times there were gods for wind, sun, rain, crop growth, etc. Now that we know what causes these things we do not need a god for them. That is what I believe religion comes from.


Actually, there is one God who all of these things originate from.  That hasn't changed a bit.



			
				grizzlyblake said:
			
		

> Now the reasons that I am a non believer - I do not think that the Bible could even have a remote chance of being accurate. Lets say that the original text was the word of god, but has been translated and "tweaked" many times. Ever play the game "telephone" as a child? Ever hear a fishing story retold that was blown way out of proportion?


This is one area where you can't compare a child playing telephone and the writings that make up the Bible.  Based on archeological finds, the Bible hasn't changed much at all.  The only changes are due to translating it out of the orginal text.  This is one area that myself and PJason and my other Catholic friends on here will agree.  The ancient scribes took painstaking measures to ensure hand copies were precise and unchanged.  In the Hebrew language, each letter is given a numeric value.  The letters were then added up on each page to ensure that not even an extra punctuation mark or letter was added.



			
				grizzlyblake said:
			
		

> Also, there is a correlation between religious belief and level of intelligence in a culture or society. The more economically poorer and uneducated groups are generally much more religious. The more highly educated and prosperous societies are, as a whole, less religious.


What country do you live in?  Last I checked, the good ol USA is the most prosperous and educated empires in the history of the universe and we were founded upon religious beliefs.  We are still a very religious country.  How condescending.


			
				grizzlyblake said:
			
		

> Lastly, MY personal lack of belief comes from what I have seen in the world. Many people of strong Christian faith that have had horrible things happen to them for absolutely no reason.



Ever read the book of Job?  God always has a purpose or reason for things.  And per Rom 8:28, All things work together for good for those who know God and are called according to His purpose.

Also, I've had some pretty tough things happen to me and my family and I would agree that all of them have worked out for my own good and that I'm a better person because of them.


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## doublelungdriller (Sep 25, 2008)

Pnome,
We as believers will pray for you. it is not to late to find god. please just ask yourself what if the bible is true? what if your wrong? you would not want to die unsaved


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## Huntinfool (Sep 25, 2008)

doublelungdriller said:


> Pnome,
> We as believers will prey for you.



Prey for you!   Well, I guess you're right.  That IS what some folks are doing around here! 

Me, I'm just gonna plain old pray for you.







Sorry bud....couldn't resist that one.


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## pnome (Sep 25, 2008)

doublelungdriller said:


> Pnome,
> We as believers will prey for you. it is not to late to find god. please just ask yourself what if the bible is true? what if your wrong? you would not want to die unsaved



I appreciate the sentiment.  I really do.

But, what if the Koran is true?  Or the Torah?  Or any number of other religious texts?   Then you wouldn't be saved at all.   This is where Pascal's Wager fails in my eyes.


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## dawg2 (Sep 25, 2008)

pnome said:


> I appreciate the sentiment.  I really do.
> 
> But, what if the Koran is true?  Or the Torah?  Or any number of other religious texts?   Then you wouldn't be saved at all.   This is where Pascal's Wager fails in my eyes.



Wrong, the wager i sthat you at least BELIEVE IN A GOD


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