# Gay lobby in Vatican



## bigdawg25 (Jun 13, 2013)

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/13/w...s-acknowledging-a-vatican-gay-lobby.html?_r=0

So Pope Francis in a private audience commented that there is a Gay lobby vying for control in Vatican. I know most folks around here dont care much for what Catholic church does, however, this news was so extraordinary that I felt it needed to be shared here. If Gay lobby can potentially have power over Catholic Church; then everyone should assume that other churches cant be that much far behind. I cant quite understand this, and neither can I draw a line as to when the utter corruption of church started.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 14, 2013)

Reading when it started:
Secrecy breeds corruption. Jesus did nothing in secret; neither did the Apostles. Ditto for their immediate successors. But the game changed when fewer then 270 of the 1800 bishops accepted Constantine' "devil's bargain" of unlimited power, wealth, etc....if the Church would connive with Mammon to become the state religion. And it was all downhill from there. 
...that the other c. 1500 bishops did not attend the Council of Nicea in 325AD should give you a clue that all was not well....! 
The deliberations of Conclave MUST be public, for all to see & hear! Vote by secret ballot, but speak openly. These Cardinals like to claim guidance by the Holy Spirit? Indeed He would guide them....IF they would only listen...! 

"The Vatican's administrative shortcomings were thrust into stark relief last year with the publication of documents stolen from Benedict XVI's desk that exposed the petty infighting, turf battles and allegations of corruption, nepotism and cronyism in the highest echelons of the Catholic Church."

Just a couple of things I read from a blog. I guess with power comes corruption. Weird that this is coming from inside the Vatican. It appears that homosexuality isn't the main problem but a manifestation of the problem.


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## bigdawg25 (Jun 14, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Reading when it started:
> Secrecy breeds corruption. Jesus did nothing in secret; neither did the Apostles. Ditto for their immediate successors. But the game changed when fewer then 270 of the 1800 bishops accepted Constantine' "devil's bargain" of unlimited power, wealth, etc....if the Church would connive with Mammon to become the state religion. And it was all downhill from there.
> ...that the other c. 1500 bishops did not attend the Council of Nicea in 325AD should give you a clue that all was not well....!
> The deliberations of Conclave MUST be public, for all to see & hear! Vote by secret ballot, but speak openly. These Cardinals like to claim guidance by the Holy Spirit? Indeed He would guide them....IF they would only listen...!
> ...



you are absolutely right. Usually I am the first person to defend catholic church; however revelations like this makes me think what else goes on behind closed doors at vatican. I start imagining all sorts of rotten things, and yeah I am mad not by homosexuality of that lobby per se, but the fact that there are lobbies vying for power in a CHURCH


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## Mako22 (Jun 15, 2013)

Hmmmmm a religion run by a bunch of men who are not allowed to get married or have a girl friend and we are surprised that they have a gay lobby???


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 15, 2013)

Woodsman69 said:


> Hmmmmm a religion run by a bunch of men who are not allowed to get married or have a girl friend and we are surprised that they have a gay lobby???



I don't think not having a wife or girlfriend would make a Christian turn gay.


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## joey1919 (Jun 15, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't think not having a wife or girlfriend would make a Christian turn gay.



yeah, i'm not married and there were lots of times i didn't have a girlfriend but ,never during those times did i feel the urge to kiss any of you


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## bigdawg25 (Jun 15, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't think not having a wife or girlfriend would make a Christian turn gay.



exactly. I am single right now, does that make me gay  

However, this ban on marriage may be attracting gays to become church clergy because many straight people may be turned off by celibacy thing, that I think "could" be happening.


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## Pale Rider (Jun 15, 2013)

I think it is time for members of the deaconate who have no children at home to be able to become priests. I feel this for many reasons. One is that there is a shortage of priests but alos a shortage of American priests. We have 3 in my church and I can onoy understand one of them. One is Mexican, one is Indian and the other in American and I like Saturday Mass so I always get the ones who I can't understand. It makes for a long homily.

That being said, what if the priest is gay but he is celibate? Is that any different than a heterosexual priest who is straight but celibate?


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## Mako22 (Jun 15, 2013)

artfuldodger said:


> i don't think not having a wife or girlfriend would make a christian turn gay.



duh!


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 15, 2013)

bigdawg25 said:


> exactly. I am single right now, does that make me gay
> 
> However, this ban on marriage may be attracting gays to become church clergy because many straight people may be turned off by celibacy thing, that I think "could" be happening.



Gay people aren't bothered by celibacy?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 15, 2013)

Pale Rider said:


> I think it is time for members of the deaconate who have no children at home to be able to become priests. I feel this for many reasons. One is that there is a shortage of priests but alos a shortage of American priests. We have 3 in my church and I can onoy understand one of them. One is Mexican, one is Indian and the other in American and I like Saturday Mass so I always get the ones who I can't understand. It makes for a long homily.
> 
> That being said, what if the priest is gay but he is celibate? Is that any different than a heterosexual priest who is straight but celibate?



I went to a Catholic funeral recently. It was a very fulfilling experience. It would have been much better if I could have understood the Priest. I was complaining about this to a friend from another Church. She said they usually never have an American Priest either and she has a hard time understanding some of them. If you can't understand them then how can they preach the word of God.


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## bigdawg25 (Jun 15, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Gay people aren't bothered by celibacy?



good question. What I meant was that historically there was nothing like gay marriage, so a gay person was expected from society to suppress his sexual urges, and remain celibate. Now, if someone is already going to be celibate, then obviously they'll be attracted to a profession where that virtue is highly regarded i.e. become a catholic priest.


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## bigdawg25 (Jun 15, 2013)

Pale Rider said:


> I think it is time for members of the deaconate who have no children at home to be able to become priests. I feel this for many reasons. One is that there is a shortage of priests but alos a shortage of American priests. We have 3 in my church and I can onoy understand one of them. One is Mexican, one is Indian and the other in American and I like Saturday Mass so I always get the ones who I can't understand. It makes for a long homily.
> 
> *That being said, what if the priest is gay but he is celibate? Is that any different than a heterosexual priest who is straight but celibate?*



I have no problems with gay priests who remain celibate. But we both know that its not happening. Gay priest prostitution scandals in Rome has proven without a doubt that priests of this so called gay lobby are very much sexually active; and then you have all those child molestation cases in Belgium, UK etc which without a doubt has hurt our church's credibility.

I agree with you that they'll have to remove this celibacy thing to become priests because otherwise no normal person will want to become a catholic priest. The language issue has never bothered me much; I have heard Indian, Irish, and Mexican priests, but then again I have been to church only handful of times in my life, so sooner or later I'll bump into an American catholic priest.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 15, 2013)

bigdawg25 said:


> good question. What I meant was that historically there was nothing like gay marriage, so a gay person was expected from society to suppress his sexual urges, and remain celibate. Now, if someone is already going to be celibate, then obviously they'll be attracted to a profession where that virtue is highly regarded i.e. become a catholic priest.



Sounds logical and a good way for a gay man to become a better Christian, forced celibacy!


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## chadair (Jul 31, 2013)

I am Catholic. I can tell ya the media turned what was said around. there is NO gay lobby in the Vatican. what the Pope said about the lobby was a joke to the people asking the questions. he also went on to say who was he to judge. his stance on Gay marriage is exactly where the church stance is and has been!!!


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## chadair (Jul 31, 2013)

Pale Rider said:


> I think it is time for members of the deaconate who have no children at home to be able to become priests. I feel this for many reasons. One is that there is a shortage of priests but alos a shortage of American priests. We have 3 in my church and I can onoy understand one of them. One is Mexican, one is Indian and the other in American and I like Saturday Mass so I always get the ones who I can't understand. It makes for a long homily.
> 
> That being said, what if the priest is gay but he is celibate? Is that any different than a heterosexual priest who is straight but celibate?


our main pastor was born in Mexico and raised in Canada. we just had a vietnamese priest who was moved to Hartwell, and now we have one from India and we have another one from Mexico on loan for several years, but he does mainly the hispanic Mass



Artfuldodger said:


> If you can't understand them then how can they preach the word of God.


I'm not gonna say it's not frustrating at times tryin to understand. but we do have Misals that have the scripture readings for that week, and usually our 3 scripture readings are read by a church member. Altho we do have one lady from Africa that reads and she is harder to understand


bigdawg25 said:


> I have no problems with gay priests who remain celibate. But we both know that its not happening. Gay priest prostitution scandals in Rome has proven without a doubt that priests of this so called gay lobby are very much sexually active; and then you have all those child molestation cases in Belgium, UK etc which without a doubt has hurt our church's credibility.
> 
> I agree with you that they'll have to remove this celibacy thing to become priests because otherwise no normal person will want to become a catholic priest. The language issue has never bothered me much; I have heard Indian, Irish, and Mexican priests, but then again I have been to church only handful of times in my life, so sooner or later I'll bump into an American catholic priest.


I heard one time that the biggest reason for shortages of American Priest is family sizes these days are a lot smaller. and that limits how many young men that are available!!


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## hummdaddy (Jul 31, 2013)

bigdawg25 said:


> i have no problems with gay priests who remain celibate. But we both know that its not happening. Gay priest prostitution scandals in rome has proven without a doubt that priests of this so called gay lobby are very much sexually active; and then you have all those child molestation cases in belgium, uk etc which without a doubt has hurt our church's credibility.
> 
> I agree with you that they'll have to remove this celibacy thing to become priests because otherwise no normal person will want to become a catholic priest. The language issue has never bothered me much; i have heard indian, irish, and mexican priests, but then again i have been to church only handful of times in my life, so sooner or later i'll bump into an american catholic priest.



child molestation is not a gay thing,IT IS A CRIME AGAINST A VICTIM ,A CHILD


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## dawg2 (Jul 31, 2013)

Woodsman69 said:


> Hmmmmm a religion run by a bunch of men who are not allowed to get married or have a girl friend and we are surprised that they have a gay lobby???


So Jesus and his apostles were gay?


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## hummdaddy (Jul 31, 2013)

dawg2 said:


> So Jesus and his apostles were gay?



he knows not what he spews


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## Dominic (Aug 3, 2013)

Pale Rider said:


> I think it is time for members of the deaconate who have no children at home to be able to become priests. I feel this for many reasons. One is that there is a shortage of priests but alos a shortage of American priests. We have 3 in my church and I can onoy understand one of them. One is Mexican, one is Indian and the other in American and I like Saturday Mass so I always get the ones who I can't understand. It makes for a long homily.
> 
> That being said, what if the priest is gay but he is celibate? Is that any different than a heterosexual priest who is straight but celibate?





Artfuldodger said:


> I went to a Catholic funeral recently. It was a very fulfilling experience. It would have been much better if I could have understood the Priest. I was complaining about this to a friend from another Church. She said they usually never have an American Priest either and she has a hard time understanding some of them. If you can't understand them then how can they preach the word of God.



Wouldn't it be nice if the Catholic Church had some sort of universal language at every mass, and no matter where you went you could hear the Mass in that language. 

But that's crazy right. There's no language out there that the Catholic Church used for centuries and centuries which is unchanging so the meanings for the words could not change over time, like they do with all living languages. Yep crazy. Nimium malus (too bad)


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 3, 2013)

Dominic said:


> Wouldn't it be nice if the Catholic Church had some sort of universal language at every mass, and no matter where you went you could hear the Mass in that language.
> 
> But that's crazy right. There's no language out there that the Catholic Church used for centuries and centuries which is unchanging so the meanings for the words could not change over time, like they do with all living languages. Yep crazy. Nimium malus (too bad)



I and even some of the Church members could not understand the Priest because he was from another country. He wasn't speaking Latin but English for the most part. 
 Nimium malus for me and Catholic members everywhere who struggle to understand their Priest. Hopefully his Latin is nimium bene.


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## puddlehunter (Aug 16, 2013)

Dominic said:


> Wouldn't it be nice if the Catholic Church had some sort of universal language at every mass, and no matter where you went you could hear the Mass in that language.
> 
> But that's crazy right. There's no language out there that the Catholic Church used for centuries and centuries which is unchanging so the meanings for the words could not change over time, like they do with all living languages. Yep crazy. Nimium malus (too bad)



I think they did and still do


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## gordon 2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Dominic said:


> Wouldn't it be nice if the Catholic Church had some sort of universal language at every mass, and no matter where you went you could hear the Mass in that language.
> 
> But that's crazy right. There's no language out there that the Catholic Church used for centuries and centuries which is unchanging so the meanings for the words could not change over time, like they do with all living languages. Yep crazy. Nimium malus (too bad)





I don't agree about a universal language. Everyone should be able to understand worship in his or her own cultural language. What might be of issue is that some cultures have not produced priest or ministers sufficient for the tasks. So the issue might be with catholic culture's uneasy fit within post modern western cultures, not language.

What is the difference between not understanding latin and not understanding Nigerian english?

I think people ( catholics) are afraid of the sacrements of their own church. The're afraid to get tangled up in them, like getting married in the church only to find, yet a young person, your on the outside if one's better half decides to kick you to the curb and you live with someone else as married couple. Or there are numerous questions concering the faithfulness of ( integrity in the call) to ministry itself.  And today priests in my neck of the woods are advising the children of catholics who do not participate in the church to get married according to the law (state).

Most catholics ( ministers included) in the last 40 yrs are Henry the Eights, protestants, and apt to squander their time within the CC, quit and declare they are not getting something out of it as if they were entitled. Vocations are valued but not encouraged... Yet, when things were done via latin, society had priests factories... and alot of them models were Edsels or lemons passing themselves as apples. So latin is a bad word for many catholics. Personally I think catholics need monastic orders in every western diocese. We are to a new middle age in spiritual terms and only this spiritual shock will bring back vocations...to the church at large.

Personally I like the mass in english and french and when I can't understand the assembly's persident...well I contemplate on the readings ( by reading them) and loose myself to the eucherist...which I can't take...cause I was married to this sweetheart for one full yr until she decided there were greener pastures and I being a young buck....found another doe...had fawns,  well you know the rest of the story.... ( You don't know what you got until its gone, and sometimes this is a good thing... I think. But latin is bankrupt as a language in my view... it belongs along with other attempts at on universal language, in a museum alongside Shaker furniture.)

The sacrements are not cutting it... for the culture we live in, but I think monastic spirituality will... Monastic spirituality for catholics will point to the body of Christ as other than just sacremental... it will point to saints, the gospel, scipture in general, salvation and redemption, the church fathers, ecumenism, grace, works, the sacrements themselves, Peter, Paul and Mary and Jesus in the temporal. New wine in new skins... nothing less...to the fullness of our faith.


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## Big7 (Aug 18, 2013)

OK... I could look up some links that would go into a great
 deal more than what I'm going to do but I'm not.

BTW... For those that don't already know, I am a
 practicing Catholic and was born Catholic went to  
 Catholic school and the whole nine yards.

(I'm running a laptop that I'm not used to so I'm
slower than usual. Please forgive.)

Here's the deal. Read it. then you will know.

The "gay lobby" within the church can hoop and holler all they want to.
God called it an abomination. It goes against the teachings of the church
Jesus Christ Himself founded over 2000 years ago  

The issue concerns Gays being admitted to The Church
and other issues. Examples include but not limited to are these: 
Joining or remaining in the clergy, using Church property for gay
"events", functions, promotional purposes etc...
They are more than welcome to come to church to worship. 
Always have, always will. 

The Catholic Church runs the Catholic Church. Period.

You will never see anyone or any event that dictates
what the Church does on doctrinal issues except
the Pope that may or may not consult The College of
Cardinals. The one's that elected him as Pope. (most likely would though) 

Never will see gays in the clergy.

Never see a married priest. With one exception
we will get into that a little later.

Never see a female priest.

Will always condemn abortion.

Will always condemn ARTIFICIAL birth control.
(different from having relations based on the female cycle)

Will always condemn premarital you know what.

And yes, homosexuality.

Again, all are welcome to worship.

These are doctrinal issues.

Many more that don't make the news will
never change. That's doctrinal. Extremely hard to change. 
Almost never over the 2000+ year history 
of the Catholic Church.

Doctrinal issues are different from Tradition.

It has nothing to do with the traditional clergy.
They are celibate in order to promote and proclaim the teachings
 of the church full-time. With no distractions.

The ONLY exception is where a minister of another
denomination doctrinally close to Catholic faith
whom are ALREADY married and convert to the Catholic 
Church can (and do) become priests.


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