# Mea Culpa



## SemperFiDawg (Dec 11, 2014)

Just wanted to take a minute or two to let all you guys (and gals) know a couple of things.

When I first started posting on this forum about a year ago I was all gung-ho, probably a bit cocky (to be honest), and full of fire(some would say "full of something else").  I had in my mind a psychological profile/stereotype if you will, of what atheist/agnostics were like.  Let me say, and offer an apology with it, that I WAS WRONG.......on a number of fronts.

  There are people on here who did fit my stereotype, but I wasn't prepared for the others who say they either 1) sought God, yet did not find him(I can't answer that, and probably never will.) or 2) are equally skeptical of all truth claims but yet remain intellectually honest.  
That I can truly respect.

Regardless of which group you fall into, I just want to say thanks for opening my eyes and reminding me of something that I should have never forgotten in the first place: That despite all the differences of opinions, philosophies, attitudes, and values, there's still more that binds us and makes us alike, than there is that separates us.  At the end of the day that's what matters the most.  

I wish each of you and your families the very best over the holidays and look forward to seeing ya'll next year.


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## ambush80 (Dec 11, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Just wanted to take a minute or two to let all you guys (and gals) know a couple of things.
> 
> When I first started posting on this forum about a year ago I was all gung-ho, probably a bit cocky (to be honest), and full of fire(some would say "full of something else").  I had in my mind a psychological profile/stereotype if you will, of what atheist/agnostics were like.  Let me say, and offer an apology with it, that I WAS WRONG.......on a number of fronts.
> 
> ...



Kind words.

Did you know that there are so many atheists that were formerly Christians (and Buddhists.  I gave it a whirl for a minute.)?


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## StriperrHunterr (Dec 11, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Just wanted to take a minute or two to let all you guys (and gals) know a couple of things.
> 
> When I first started posting on this forum about a year ago I was all gung-ho, probably a bit cocky (to be honest), and full of fire(some would say "full of something else").  I had in my mind a psychological profile/stereotype if you will, of what atheist/agnostics were like.  Let me say, and offer an apology with it, that I WAS WRONG.......on a number of fronts.
> 
> ...



Likewise. I've been bitten by this particular mindset myself, so there's enough "fault" to go around.


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## SemperFiDawg (Dec 11, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> Kind words.
> 
> Did you know that there are so many atheists that were formerly Christians (and Buddhists.  I gave it a whirl for a minute.)?



Honestly I did, because a know the Church loses many once they go off to college,  (The numbers are pretty staggering.), but it hadn't made its way into my cognition enough to affect my stereotype.


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## ambush80 (Dec 11, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Honestly I did, because a know the Church loses many once they go off to college,  (The numbers are pretty staggering.), but it hadn't made its way into my cognition enough to affect my stereotype.



I've tried real hard to remember what it was like being a deist.  I can't quite remember what it was like to think "It can't possibly not be so."

The minute the doubt entered it was all over.


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## bullethead (Dec 11, 2014)

SFD,
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and your family. 
I have learned that all whizzing matches back and forth rarely change anyone's beliefs but they do open up lines of thought that may have never occurred otherwise.
Take Care


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## jmharris23 (Dec 11, 2014)

Good post, and great attitude.


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## JB0704 (Dec 11, 2014)

Good post SFD.  I'm on your "team," but I came in this forum all fired up too......except I was mad at Christians, even though I was one myself.

Like you, I have enjoyed debating and discussing various topics.  I've even met Walt and Ambush, both good folks.  I imagine I'd enjoy a beer with most of 'em.

I haven't participated in here as much lately, not because I have been gone.  Not sure why, I just think I've said my piece on most topics which come up.  I do have a few ideas I'm kickin' around for threads in here......just thinking it through.

I agree with Bullet, lines of thought get opened up when what we hold true is challenged.  I don't know if my faith has been shaken through the debate, but I have definitely revisited a lot of my notions, if that makes sense.


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## ambush80 (Dec 11, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> Good post SFD.  I'm on your "team," but I came in this forum all fired up too......except I was mad at Christians, even though I was one myself.
> 
> Like you, I have enjoyed debating and discussing various topics.  I've even met Walt and Ambush, both good folks.  I imagine I'd enjoy a beer with most of 'em.
> 
> ...




Ever go back to that trout spot?


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## EverGreen1231 (Dec 11, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Just wanted to take a minute or two to let all you guys (and gals) know a couple of things.
> 
> When I first started posting on this forum about a year ago I was all gung-ho, probably a bit cocky (to be honest), and full of fire(some would say "full of something else").  I had in my mind a psychological profile/stereotype if you will, of what atheist/agnostics were like.  Let me say, and offer an apology with it, that I WAS WRONG.......on a number of fronts.
> 
> ...



I was that way as well. Came in with a little too much "vim and vigor" (posted, what someone said, might have been the longest sentence ever on Woody's  ); I probably offended a few folks with my zeal, for which I, also, would like to apologize. 

I can't say I've read a topic on this forum yet that really made me "challenge" my faith (so far as the fundamental principles), but there have been several that have caused me to search the scriptures. I found more faith between the pages.

Regardless of what you believe, at the end of the day, we're all human: We should treat each other with the accordant amount of respect.


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## StriperrHunterr (Dec 11, 2014)

EverGreen1231 said:


> Regardless of what you believe, at the end of the day, we're all human: We should treat each other with the accordant amount of respect.



Now that is a truth.


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## JB0704 (Dec 11, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> Ever go back to that trout spot?



Yea, I went a few more times.  Also fished below the dam later in the summer. I did well except once when the water was crazy high.  My son caught his first trut there about 2 months after you took me.  I certainly appreciate you showing me that place.

I bought same waders, and am ready for next year.....we should get another trip together if your up for it.....I think the season opens in April, but I'll go fishin' anytime.


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## ambush80 (Dec 11, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> Yea, I went a few more times.  Also fished below the dam later in the summer. I did well except once when the water was crazy high.  My son caught his first trut there about 2 months after you took me.  I certainly appreciate you showing me that place.
> 
> I bought same waders, and am ready for next year.....we should get another trip together if your up for it.....I think the season opens in April, but I'll go fishin' anytime.



Glad to share it with you and your son.  I can't wait til my girl is big enough to fish there.

I thought that was a year round section though I can't see myself getting in that water until the mercury hits 80.


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## JB0704 (Dec 11, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> Glad to share it with you and your son.  I can't wait til my girl is big enough to fish there.
> 
> I thought that was a year round section though I can't see myself getting in that water until the mercury hits 80.



YEa, that water is cold.....but I found that if I stuck with it, I got used to it after a while, but that was prolly because it was so hot when I was there.

Hope we can get another AAA fishin' trip together.  I'd offer a turkey hunt, but the last two have been a bust as far as killin' birds are concerned...


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## WaltL1 (Dec 11, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Just wanted to take a minute or two to let all you guys (and gals) know a couple of things.
> 
> When I first started posting on this forum about a year ago I was all gung-ho, probably a bit cocky (to be honest), and full of fire(some would say "full of something else").  I had in my mind a psychological profile/stereotype if you will, of what atheist/agnostics were like.  Let me say, and offer an apology with it, that I WAS WRONG.......on a number of fronts.
> 
> ...


Great words SFD. It takes guts to say what you just did.
I have definitely noticed a change in your approach. 
I thought maybe you had changed medications or something 
Merry Christmas to you and yours.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 11, 2014)

I think that every Christian should interact with non believers. A site like this is a good place. It helps us to realize that what we believe does not trump what others believe.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 11, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> I think that every Christian should interact with non believers. A site like this is a good place. It helps us to realize that what we believe does not trump what others believe.



I agree, it can challenge our own beliefs and make us even stronger. I wish we had a few Oneness believers, more JW's, more Mormons, and a few Quakers on the forum.
I would also like to have more Wiccans, Muslims, Hindus, and Heaven's Gaters to debate.


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## 660griz (Dec 12, 2014)

jmharris23 said:


> Good post, and great attitude.



I concur.


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## TripleXBullies (Dec 12, 2014)

EverGreen1231 said:


> Regardless of what you believe, at the end of the day, we're all human: We should treat each other with the accordant amount of respect.



COEXIST... which so many people here have a problem with. Yet... it's sooo simple...


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 12, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I agree, it can challenge our own beliefs and make us even stronger. I wish we had a few Oneness believers, more JW's, more Mormons, and a few Quakers on the forum.
> I would also like to have more Wiccans, Muslims, Hindus, and Heaven's Gaters to debate.


That has never crossed my mind, but your right, more of each, more interesting discussion. Only here at Woody's can you take off your rock helmet without being stoned. I appreciate that


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## gemcgrew (Dec 13, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> there's still more that binds us and makes us alike, than there is that separates us.  At the end of the day that's what matters the most.


I am curious as to what you have in mind there.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 13, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> I am curious as to what you have in mind there.



My answer would be DNA. We are bound together even with animals and plants.
Now the great question is:
Who formed this DNA for me to make this comparison of us to animals?


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## SemperFiDawg (Dec 16, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> I am curious as to what you have in mind there.



Oh Gem.  You know.  Made in the image of God, etc.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 16, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Oh Gem.  You know.  Made in the image of God, etc.


Fine, I just disagree. I say that there is more that separates the non Christian from the Christian, than binds them together.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 16, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Fine, I just disagree. I say that there is more that separates the non Christian from the Christian, than binds them together.


Other than religion, which is 1 thing, what are the others?


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## JB0704 (Dec 16, 2014)

On this board....enjoyin' the outdoors is a common bond.  I can list several things.....


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## gemcgrew (Dec 16, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> On this board....enjoyin' the outdoors is a common bond.  I can list several things.....


My enjoyment of the outdoors has nothing in common with how the non-Christian enjoys it. I am mindful of God in it. I would apply this to all of your "several things".


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## JB0704 (Dec 16, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> My enjoyment of the outdoors has nothing in common with how the non-Christian enjoys it. I am mindful of God in it. I would apply this to all of your "several things".



Yes, I'm thinkin' you are going the "new creature" route relevant to election, or awakening.  Out with the old, in with the new, correct?


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## gemcgrew (Dec 16, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> Yes, I'm thinkin' you are going the "new creature" route relevant to election, or awakening.  Out with the old, in with the new, correct?


As Walt mentioned, religion is 1 thing. 

Christianity is one huge thing. For the Christian, it changes everything.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 16, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> My enjoyment of the outdoors has nothing in common with how the non-Christian enjoys it. I am mindful of God in it. I would apply this to all of your "several things".


What you have in common is the enjoyment of being outdoors.
The individual reasons of "why" doesn't change that.


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## JB0704 (Dec 16, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Christianity is one huge thing. For the Christian, it changes everything.



YEs, but doesn't Paul discuss the struggle against the "old" self?  Which makes me think we keep our humanity.

I sat against a tree with one of these fellas and had a great discussion one day turkey hunting, same happened on the chattahoochee river with a few of em.  It's hard for me to calssify that as anything but common ground.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 16, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> What you have in common is the enjoyment of being outdoors.
> The individual reasons of "why" doesn't change that.


My enjoyment has nothing in common with your enjoyment.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 16, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> My enjoyment has nothing in common with your enjoyment.


We'll leave it at that. You aren't going to accept that if the end result for each of us is joy that that is something in common regardless of why.
Its kind of like saying if Im fat because I eat too many Fritos and you are fat because you eat too many cheeseburgers that we don't have being fat in common


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## SemperFiDawg (Dec 16, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> My enjoyment has nothing in common with your enjoyment.



Gem, are you aware of how arrogant you are coming off?  
There's only one thing that separates you from the rest of humanity.  It's grace.  Grace you didn't earn and Grace you don't deserve.....along with everyone else; saved or unsaved.

I understand the "new creature" principle, but may I suggest that (and again I'm reminding myself also) the foremost demeanor this "new creature" is to exhibit is one of humility.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 16, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Gem, are you aware of how arrogant you are coming off?
> There's only one thing that separates you from the rest of humanity.  It's grace.  Grace you didn't earn and Grace you don't deserve.....along with everyone else; saved or unsaved.
> 
> I understand the "new creature" principle, but may I suggest that (and again I'm reminding myself also) the foremost demeanor this "new creature" is to exhibit is one of humility.


It does sound it but I think his point is that they are two entirely different experiences that although both take place outdoors have nothing in common because he is viewing the outdoors in a different way than I am.
I don't have a problem with that but the fact remains if we both feel joy then the joy is what we have in common regardless of why.
Just as 1 + 3 =4
And 2 + 2 =4
The numbers aren't the same but they have 4 in common.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 18, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Gem, are you aware of how arrogant you are coming off?


Yes, of the cost also. I have an example from yesterday, where truth and accuracy is sometimes perceived as arrogance.

I am in the back bedroom when I hear my wife scream, "Somebody call 911!". As I rushed into the living room, I saw her trembling and frozen with fear, her eyes locked toward the fireplace. Her dad, who was enjoying the warmth of a fire just a few moments prior, was now appearing to take his final breaths. 

As I went over to him, I looked at my wife and said, "You call 911, I have Doyle". As I held him and talked to him, he would not respond. I heard my wife tell the dispatcher, "He is not breathing, his lips are purple". 

I looked at her and said, "Jennifer, stop it. They need accurate information. Tell them only what I tell you. He is unconscious and not responding. He is breathing and his lips are not purple."

She hands the phone to me and asks, "Do you have to be so arrogant?". I replied, "Yes".

Her dad is now resting at the hospital, awaiting more test results. They think that he suffered a mini stroke or mild seizure.  


SemperFiDawg said:


> There's only one thing that separates you from the rest of humanity.  It's grace.  Grace you didn't earn and Grace you don't deserve.....along with everyone else; saved or unsaved.


Yes, but there is nothing common about the grace of God. It is by the grace of God, I am what I am.


SemperFiDawg said:


> I understand the "new creature" principle, but may I suggest that (and again I'm reminding myself also) the foremost demeanor this "new creature" is to exhibit is one of humility.


Yes... true humility.


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## JB0704 (Dec 18, 2014)

Sorry to hear about that Gem.  Prayers for a speedy recovery.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 18, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> Sorry to hear about that Gem.  Prayers for a speedy recovery.


Thanks JB, 
I just brought him back to the house. They think it was a mild seizure. If he did, it was unlike any seizure that I have witnessed. He had an EEG test while I was there this morning. All of the other test results were fine. We will not know the results of EEG until he visits his doctor on Monday.


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## ambush80 (Dec 18, 2014)

Gem, 

I hope your father in law gets better soon.


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## ambush80 (Dec 18, 2014)

If someone thought that my life were in danger I would appreciate if they let me know with the utmost sincerity and urgency.

If they told me I was going to be attacked by vampires I wouldn't give it much thought.


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## Israel (Dec 18, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> Gem,
> 
> I hope your father in law gets better soon.


yes.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 18, 2014)

Same here, Gem.


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## Israel (Dec 18, 2014)

who is equal to such a task...


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## SemperFiDawg (Dec 18, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Yes, of the cost also. I have an example from yesterday, where truth and accuracy is sometimes perceived as arrogance.



In other words it's OK to be arrogant or perceived as so given the stakes: The ends justify the means.  

I'm pretty confident every injustice ever committed in the name of Christianity started from this EXACT line of reasoning.
(In fact, what separates this line of reasoning from how radical Muslims justify Jihad?)

Christian literally means "Christ-like."  Show me again where Christ exhibited this attitude?





gemcgrew said:


> She hands the phone to me and asks, "Do you have to be so arrogant?". I replied, "Yes".



M Scott Peck said in essence, that in stressful situations  people revert to their base/true personality.  I have found this to be a truism.  

Hope your Father in Law makes a full recovery.



gemcgrew said:


> Yes, but there is nothing common about the grace of God. It is by the grace of God, I am what I am.



Oh God's grace is very common.  It's there for the taking. Man's grace; not so much.



gemcgrew said:


> Yes... true humility.


 
As in that often portrayed and perceived as arrogance?


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## gemcgrew (Dec 19, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> In other words it's OK to be arrogant or perceived as so given the stakes: The ends justify the means.
> 
> I'm pretty confident every injustice ever committed in the name of Christianity started from this EXACT line of reasoning.
> (In fact, what separates this line of reasoning from how radical Muslims justify Jihad?)


Interesting


SemperFiDawg said:


> Christian literally means "Christ-like."  Show me again where Christ exhibited this attitude?


Christ spoke with the authority of one who knows. Do you believe that he was not perceived as arrogant?


SemperFiDawg said:


> M Scott Peck said in essence, that in stressful situations  people revert to their base/true personality.  I have found this to be a truism.


If what M Scott Peck said is true, then I reverted to truth and accuracy. If I did in fact revert to my base/true personality, it is the work of God's grace in me. I take no credit for it.


SemperFiDawg said:


> Hope your Father in Law makes a full recovery.


Thank you!


SemperFiDawg said:


> Oh God's grace is very common.  It's there for the taking. Man's grace; not so much.


God's grace is for His own. The Bible shows a clear distinction between the Christian and the non-Christian, as in Psalm 1. They are different in every way. 


SemperFiDawg said:


> As in that often portrayed and perceived as arrogance?


It can be perceived as arrogance. 

SF, do you believe that the Christian has a far superior way of knowing and understanding than that of a non-Christian?


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## SemperFiDawg (Dec 19, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Christ spoke with the authority of one who knows. Do you believe that he was not perceived as arrogant?



Interesting you ask that on a number of fronts.

When I read the Gospels the ONE character trait Christ exhibits above all is humility.  That's not to say he didn't exhibit anger and even scorn, but I hope you hear this if nothing else.  If you look at those instances in which Christ was angry and scornful , in each and every instance it was directed at RELIGIOUS PEOPLE WHO FELT OR ACTED SUPERIOR TOWARD THOSE THEY DEEMED IRRELIGIOUS.  
Sound familiar?



gemcgrew said:


> SF, do you believe that the Christian has a far superior way of knowing and understanding than that of a non-Christian?



Listen Gem.  I know this.  I'm a far better person after Christ than I was before, but the only thing, and I mean ONLY thing , that separates me from who I was and anyone else out there for that matter is the Grace I was given.  That's it.  

It's a dangerous thing when a Christian starts to see himself superior from the non-Christian in any way. 
(Been there, done that too).  

I do realize that I look at the world differently than the way I did before and the way non Christians do,  and I do believe I'm a better man for it.  Not better than anyone else, just better than the man I was.  It doesn't make me feel superior at all, just the opposite.  It makes me ashamed of who I was and what I have done.  I'm humbled by it daily and eternally grateful for the mercy and deliverance.  It was totally undeserved, so what do I have to be proud of and who is there for me to feel superior to?


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## WaltL1 (Dec 19, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Interesting you ask that on a number of fronts.
> 
> When I read the Gospels the ONE character trait Christ exhibits above all is humility.  That's not to say he didn't exhibit anger and even scorn, but I hope you hear this if nothing else.  If you look at those instances in which Christ was angry and scornful , in each and every instance it was directed at RELIGIOUS PEOPLE WHO FELT OR ACTED SUPERIOR TOWARD THOSE THEY DEEMED IRRELIGIOUS.
> Sound familiar?
> ...





> Not better than anyone else, just better than the man I was.


Regardless of what I believe or don't, when this ^ is the effect that a belief in God has on a person, I would NEVER argue for them to abandon their faith. 
That is a great example of why I have said that Im not here to change anybody's mind. Debate/discuss/argue yes, change someone's mind, no.


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## ambush80 (Dec 19, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> Regardless of what I believe or don't, when this ^ is the effect that a belief in God has on a person, I would NEVER argue for them to abandon their faith.
> That is a great example of why I have said that Im not here to change anybody's mind. Debate/discuss/argue yes, change someone's mind, no.



I would say that one could be those things without Christ and arguably for better reasons but you'd have to take my word for it.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 19, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> I would say that one could be those things without Christ and arguably for better reasons but you'd have to take my word for it.


No question. But if a belief in God is what it takes for some folks to be a better person then that's what it takes.


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## SemperFiDawg (Dec 19, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> I would say that one could be those things without Christ and arguably for better reasons but you'd have to take my word for it.



You could be correct but no matter how you define "better" it's not gonna hold true for everyone. 

 Stripe said in another post the other day something to the effect that arrogance is the root of stupidity, and I thought that was a very wise observation with the converse also being true: Humility is the root of wisdom.  

If you look at the greatest men and women over the course of human history, many if not most, while being strong leaders externally, were deeply humble on a personal basis.  I don't think that's a mistake.  

All that to say this:  while all Christians should be humble, not all the humble are Christians.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 20, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Interesting you ask that on a number of fronts.
> 
> When I read the Gospels the ONE character trait Christ exhibits above all is humility.  That's not to say he didn't exhibit anger and even scorn, but I hope you hear this if nothing else.  If you look at those instances in which Christ was angry and scornful , in each and every instance it was directed at RELIGIOUS PEOPLE WHO FELT OR ACTED SUPERIOR TOWARD THOSE THEY DEEMED IRRELIGIOUS.
> Sound familiar?


SF, you continue to avoid answering the question, only to use your "in other words" as to build a case and then project an accusation. It does not work on me.


SemperFiDawg said:


> Listen Gem.  I know this.  I'm a far better person after Christ than I was before, but the only thing, and I mean ONLY thing , that separates me from who I was and anyone else out there for that matter is the Grace I was given.  That's it.


And that is what I am saying.


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## SemperFiDawg (Dec 21, 2014)

Sorry Gem.  

I thought I did answer your question.  You quoted part of my answer above.


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## Israel (Dec 22, 2014)

With the faithful You prove Yourself faithful; with the blameless man You prove Yourself blameless;
with the pure You prove Yourself pure, but with the crooked You prove Yourself shrewd.
For You rescue an afflicted people, but You humble those with haughty eyes.

Maybe we just don't know who we are beholding...ourselves, or another?


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