# Why can't I resize once-fired 30-30 brass? **PICS ADDED**/**UPDATE**



## famdoc2892 (Sep 17, 2010)

A question for you experienced reloaders.  I just breezed through 50 pieces of new Winchester 30-30 brass (unprimed) using full-length RCBS dies in an RCBS JR3 press (single-stage).

When I tried to resize a batch of once-fired Remington cases, the case "stalls" about two-thirds into the die and I have to really lean on the handle to force the case all the way in and pop the primer out.  The shoulder dents in 3 or 4 places and ruins the case...

I've tried lubing more and lubing less, took the die apart to look for bent pins/parts, adjusted the decapping pin, double-checked the die seating, and nothing.  New brass still fits fine, 8 pieces of once-fired from 2 different suppliers ruined so far, only able to pop primers on 4 of them.

Any ideas?


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## BriarPatch99 (Sep 17, 2010)

What kind of lube are you using? Imperial Sizing Wax is one of the best. Are you lubing all the way down to the rim? The shoulder dents are from too much lube on the neck and shoulder area, unless they are creased they are ok to shoot, not pretty, but OK. If they have a sharp crease then I would throw them away. 

If you don't mind, give us a little more info on the die brand, are they full sizing, neck sizing, collet type, bushing or what type. Please give us the press name too. 

Jimmy K


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## Jimmyp (Sep 17, 2010)

try to resize it without the decapping pin assembly in place. just unscrew the entire thing from the top and remove it.  Don't use so much lube as the prior poster indicated, if it sizes easier get a Q tip and lubricate inside the case neck and shoulder area of the shell. 

Another thought!

Your rifle may have a very loose chamber as well and the dimensions of the fired cases may be "larger" than a standard fired case. What type of rifle do you have?


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## germag (Sep 17, 2010)

Too much sizing lube will definitely cause the shoulder dents.


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## Richard P (Sep 17, 2010)

It's possible someone shot  the ammo in a 32 Win. Properly lubed cases should not demand ''leaning'' on the handle.


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## famdoc2892 (Sep 17, 2010)

*Thanks, guys!*

Let me see if I can address all your questions:

BP99, these are rounded "dents" not sharp creases, the die/press info is at the top of the OP.

JimmyP, I didn't shoot these cases, they were purchased.  I'm lubing the entire case, base to shoulder, using my fingers and RCBS Case Lube (smells like Vaseline).  I'll be happy to try without the decapping assembly.  I did try lubing about halfway down the inside case neck, no change.

RichardP, interesting you should mention.  I found one Win 32 Special case in the batch of 110 as I was sorting...  Tell me more about what that would do and how to "fix" it if possible.

Any more ideas?


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## RamblinWreck (Sep 17, 2010)

Something is wrong with those once-fired Rem cases. Shoot one of your Win loads and then try resizing the Win case. I'll bet you don't have a problem. I'd ditch the 1F Rem cases.


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## bearpugh (Sep 17, 2010)

too much lube, especially on and above the shoulder. doesn't take much.


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## famdoc2892 (Sep 17, 2010)

*Too much lube?*

Will that make the cases stick that tight, or only cause the shoulder denting?


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## BriarPatch99 (Sep 17, 2010)

Sorry about the press and die info ....I guess I was blind at that time of the morning....

The 32 Win ... sounds like good info.  If you have a caliper ... measure a fired factory round and then measure the cases you having problems with ...compare the measurements. That may tell the rest of the story.
The rounded dents are OK...they will flatten back out when fired. 

Even sizing down 32 Win brass should not take that much effort...  It is .321" and 30/30 is .307-.308 .. so you only talking .013 .

I down size 30/06(.308) to 25/06(.257) all the time ... with out any problems. 

Jimmy K


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## famdoc2892 (Sep 17, 2010)

*Good ideas!*

I've got some of the Win cases that I fired for my first set of loads, I'll give them a quick mike when I get back and compare to the Rem 1F brass.

I'll also run a few of them through the FL die to see how they perform.

One other tidbit, I've got my press mounted to a portable tabletop stand, consisting of a 2x10 base about 13" wide, 2 uprights of 2x8, and a 9" piece of 2x4 spanning the uprights.  Press is bolted through the 2x4 with 1/4" bolts/washers/nuts, wood joined with 3" deck screws.   Sturdy, but had to stabilize a bit to resize new brass.  I'm planning to take the press out and bolt it to the big heavy workbench for comparison.


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## 7Mag Hunter (Sep 17, 2010)

Does sound like an oversize case issue....I use the RCBS lube
it is is pretty thick .....
Take some outside measurements of one of your good fired cases
and the same measurements of your purchased cases....

You might also shoot some WD down the sizing die on your lubed
case as you try to resize it...Take the decapper out....
If thick lube is being pushed ahead
of the case and causing dents, a bit of WD might thin it down
some to allow complete resizing......
Strange problem.....Keep us posted...


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## polaris30144 (Sep 17, 2010)

Check the cases with a micrometer. Some nimrod might have tried to fire form them to .35.


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## Elkbane (Sep 17, 2010)

Famdoc,
Think about what you are doing when you're "sizing" a case.  Assuming your dies are set right, sizing a new case causes very little contact between the sides of the case and the sidewalls of the dies. Mostly what you're doing is straightening out any bent or miss-shapen necks. 

When you size a fired case, the sides of the case contact the sidewalls of the dies and squeeze the case diameter inwards. This is why you need lube, to allow the case to slide in. But brass, being elastic, has to go somewhere, so the case actually gets longer until the shoulder contacts the shoulder portion of the die. At that point, the shoulder is press rearward and the brass is restored to proper dimension. If there is any lubricant on the shoulder, it won't compress, but the brass underneath it will, and that results in a "hydrolic dent" in the shoulder of the case.  Take your die apart and clean it well with brake cleaner and a paper towel wrapped around a pencil or something.  Reassemble and then lube a case, but take care to only get lube on the side of the case, on the neck and inside the neck.  Try it again and see if it works. If not, you probably have your dies set improperly.
Elkbane


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## famdoc2892 (Sep 17, 2010)

*Thanks!*

I appreciate the suggestions, guys, I'll take it to the house and update you over the weekend.


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## stevetarget (Sep 17, 2010)

make sure your die is not set too low. it sounds like the shoulder is being bumped too far back. don't use too much lube, a light coat is all that is needed but you need to be careful to use enough on this brass since you are already dealing with tight cases. 

i never buy once fired brass, i start with new brass and reload it.


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## BriarPatch99 (Sep 17, 2010)

Some pictures of the cases before and after... may help us help you....


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## famdoc2892 (Sep 18, 2010)

*Pictures to come...*

Thought of that, but was at work yesterday, "stuff" was at home.  I'll try to get those up and document a little more clearly.


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## famdoc2892 (Sep 20, 2010)

*Update and pics*

OK, guys, a busy weekend, but here's what I've got.  First of all, the homemade tabletop stand I told you about:












Stability seems to be one issue with this setup, but didn't get a chance to mount to the workbench as intended.  That could solve some of the leverage problems.

Taking the FL sizing die apart, spraying with carb cleaner and applying lube sparingly solved the hydraulic dent problem on the case shoulders, but removing the decapping pin didn't significantly ease the resizing operation on either the purchased 1F cases or the factory cases I'd fired on my first reloads.

Here's some shots of the cases I tried to resize; the two on the left I successfully forced through the die to size and decap (with great effort), the three on the right I couldn't force through.  Note the lube "level" lines, the sharp lines on the right-hand cases indicate the mazimum depth into the die.  The lines smudged as the left-hand cases were fully resized.  Left my caliper at my father-in-laws, but fingers tell me there's a distinct bulge below the "level" lines.  Will confirm.





Here's the necks.





Lying down, you can see that the left-most primer was partially expelled.





OK, there's the case, what's your verdict?  Thanks!


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## 7Mag Hunter (Sep 20, 2010)

I can't see pics .......


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## famdoc2892 (Sep 20, 2010)

*Pics*

They (were) in my last post dated today (9/20/10) at 9:10AM, not the OP.
Post #19, but when I refreshed, nothing...

Uploaded them again, just haven't mastered the photo essay technique of captioning each picture without them being piled up at the end as well...  I'll take any pointers.  Enjoy!


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## BriarPatch99 (Sep 20, 2010)

By looking at the photos, I see nothing that should give you the problems your having. That being said, the eyes can fool you(me). 

I see a slight bulge at the dark line on case #3 and an even smaller bulge on #4 & #5. The sized neck on case #5 appears to be normal or slightly over size below the marking, but nothing out of hand. I wish you had included an untouched case to compare them to, may be it would have helped.

I'm going to offer an opinion, just an opinion...

Your cases have been shot in a gun with a generous chamber. The RCBS Jr press is not known for having lots of mechanical leverage. I would be willing to bet that if you had a press with more leverage, those cases would size with no problems. Do you have someone near that would allow you to try your dies and cases in their press? I wish you were near me, I would love to try those in my Forster CoAx press, just to see if that is the problem. I may be wrong though! The bulge could be caused by the press flexing enough for it to show only on one side like I see in the photo, could be the chamber too.

If you'll look at some of the presses with compound linkage... like the Redding Ultramag, Forster CoAx, RCBS Rock Chucker and others ... you'll see that they have the leverage needed to size your cases.

Jimmy K


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## GAR (Sep 20, 2010)

Part of the problem is going to be the stand that the press is mountd on.

Cheap option: Used tire rim (Steel), 4=6" diameter pipe and a piece of 3/8" sheet steel. Put the pipe atop of the center of the rim and cut it to a height that works good for you. Weld it to the rim and then weld the sheet steel to the top of the pipe. Drill mounting holes for the press, bolt it down and have at it.

Wish I had a picture to show you. Had one as described above for a couple of years while at my last duty station in the military. Best part is that it does not take up much room and you can roll it out of the way.

GAR


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## chuckdog (Sep 20, 2010)

Get the press properly mounted, and throw that old brass away. Go to Wally World and buy some factory Winchester, Federal, or Remington, whichever cheapest, ammo. Fire it through a known 30-30, then resize  and load it. Beating your head against a wall for a few pieces of old brass isn't worth it. I suggest you start with known good stuff. Getting that press mounted on a good sturdy bench will make a huge difference too.


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## trial&error (Sep 20, 2010)

re mount your press and most of your problems will clear up.  Mine is bolted to a 2x5 then "C" clamped to any large table/ workbench.  throw a rag under it and you can even clamp it down to the kitchen table.  Though you may want to run that past the boss first.


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## SgtPat (Sep 20, 2010)

From the looks of the far right shell, it looks like the the neck expander is to high so the die is trying to squeeze the neck down against the expander. your die may have the wrong length/size expander or you may just need to screw it farther down into the die.
Hope that helps.


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## MadDawg51 (Sep 20, 2010)

Agree with the recommendations so far.  Also, it seems the brass looks dingy.  Did you run it through a tumbler or cleaner first.  Dirty brass will gum up the dies pretty quick and won't size as well as clean brass.  I would start with either some purchased brass or some factory brass that I knew was fired once in my gun.

As for mounting the press.  My Lee turret press is mounted to a 3/4" plywood bench top reinforced with a 2 x 6 along the full front.  It will flex under resizing for .30-30 or .30-06.  So, mount your press with lag bolts to something you can jump up and down on.  That will help.


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## Win1917 (Sep 21, 2010)

> From the looks of the far right shell, it looks like the the neck expander is to high so the die is trying to squeeze the neck down against the expander. your die may have the wrong length/size expander or you may just need to screw it farther down into the die.



That's what it looks like to me too. If the expander isn't down far enough to pop the primers out it can easily be binding up the case neck and causing all the friction problems. 30-30 is a relatively thin wall case. That press may not be the beefiest on the market but should have no problem whatsoever handling 30-30's. 

How far does the decapping pin stick out below the die?

I wouldn't worry about the bulge at the bottom. Unless your chamber is too tight for it to fit which is unlikely in a lever gun, the cases will fireform to your chamber after the first firing anyway.


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## miles58 (Sep 21, 2010)

First, get your press solid mounted.  Resizing takes a lot of leverage and that could well be most of your problem.

Second, get some Imperial sizing wax.  Chapstick will work for a test though.  Wipe you finger across the chapstick,  then rub your thumb and first two fingers together get another wipe and get enough on your fingers to grasp the empty and wipe your fingers on it from the base up while you twist the empty.  With a thin film of wax over most of the brass try to resize again.

I think it's just a lube and press leverage problem.

Dave


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## Richard P (Sep 21, 2010)

REgarding my comment on the possibility of having 30-30 cases or ammo fired in a 32Win Spl: They are cousins and finding a 32W-S casing in with 30-30s wouldnt be uncommon. Nor would that point to all the cases being fired in a 32W-S. Slipping a 30cal bullet into the neck of a fired case would tell that story. Mic the cases just above the rim on a ''suspect'' case and a piece of new brass. Also mic at the neck diameter.  It would be good to mic several and record the measurements. Mic again on the first firing in your rifle and compare the numbers.


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## Dawgs (Sep 21, 2010)

IF all else fails, take your die apart and clean.  Make sure your vent holes are not clogged with grease. This will cause denting of your brass.


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## Bernard goldsmith (Sep 21, 2010)

Are you sure the die is adjusted right!! Mine has come loose when i've been reloading.


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## leoparddog (Sep 21, 2010)

My vote would be to get that press C clamped down firmly.  I have used a RockChucker on one of the portable Franklin Arsenal tables for years.  There are lots of inexpensive ways to bolt that press down which will help.  The 30-30 isn't that hard to resize and your press should handle it, if the press is solid, the brass clean and properly lubed.


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## Lead Poison (Sep 21, 2010)

chuckdog said:


> Get the press properly mounted, and throw that old brass away. Go to Wally World and buy some factory Winchester, Federal, or Remington, whichever cheapest, ammo. Fire it through a known 30-30, then resize  and load it. Beating your head against a wall for a few pieces of old brass isn't worth it. I suggest you start with known good stuff. Getting that press mounted on a good sturdy bench will make a huge difference too.



X2


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## famdoc2892 (Sep 21, 2010)

*Thanks, guys!*

You are all champs for hanging in there to help me figure this out.  Going to strip down, clean and lube the press tonight, then get it clamped to the workbench for another try.  Once the "shows" come on, I'll grab the micrometer and sling some numbers.


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## famdoc2892 (Sep 22, 2010)

*Problem solved!*

Another big "Thank You" going out to all of you for your comments.

Final analysis = leverage!  Got the press clamped down to a heavy workbench and sized/deprimed 20 cases with the added heft, only 2 that were a little sticky.

Also took the press apart and polished/lubed sparingly all the bearing parts to reduce friction.  When I brought the press stand back in the house, it again required near-maximum effort to size/deprime, but got two more done just to prove it.

I did drop the die down from 1/8-turn below contact to 1/4-turn below contact in response to observations by SgtPat and Win1917, and I agree the shoulders/necks look better-formed.

I also miked 10 of the once-fired cases I purchased alongside 10 factory-new that I'd fired in my gun (Marlin lever).  Results were:

My 1F brass  Mouth 0.3308" avg. (range 0.330-0.332),  Neck 0.4038" (range 0.403-0.405),  Base  0.4146" (range 0.412-0.416)

Once-fired   Mouth  0.3293" avg. (range 0.328-0.332),  Neck  0.4042" (range 0.403-0.406),  Base  0.4163" (range 0.415-0.418)

As predicted, the "other gun" used to shoot the once-fired I purchased had a more generous chamber at the base, making the press work harder on that last 1-2 cm. of the case.

Maybe I'll get some use out of my mangy old brass after all, chuckdog and Lead Poison, but thanks for your time and thoughts all!


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## 7Mag Hunter (Sep 22, 2010)

Once you get the problem brass resized , loaded you should
be able to reuse it several more times....
You might also consider getting a brass tumbler to clean your
brass up some....Clean polished brass can also make sizing
slightly easier.....


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## Win1917 (Sep 22, 2010)

Thanks for posting what you found to work. I've always had my press bolted to a heavy workbench that has a top made of 1" thick aluminum plate. I knew it was important to have a solid bench but since I've never reloaded on anything different I have to admit I didn't realize how important it is. Kinda like a spare tire for your car, don't realize how important it is until you're actually stranded somewhere and need one.


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## famdoc2892 (Sep 23, 2010)

*Few more observations*

I kept the press stand in the house last night, but switched out to a set of Lee dies and Lee case lube.  By grasping the press at the front riser with my off hand, was able to size and decap about 25 more cases with some effort, but not maximal.

Seems the combination of Lee case lube and dies was a little more efficient, and the press definitely moves better after a good cleaning.

Conclusions:
1) The tabletop press stand is highly portable and flexible for light jobs , best clamped to a heavy bench to ease resizing.

2) The once-fired cases vary from my gun's chamber but are definitely workable with proper setup.

3) Sparingly-lubed cases and clean dies and press work better with less effort, and eliminate hydraulic shoulder dents! 

4) Lee dies (new) appear to be performing better in comparison to my 30-year-old RCBS dies.

Thanks for the virtual "hand", guys!


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## MadDawg51 (Sep 23, 2010)

You mention Lee case lube.  I have started using it with some information from others on-line.  I mixed it 1 part case lube with 9 parts rubbing alcohol and put it in a fine mist sprayer.  That way, I can spray a light coating on the cases (spray from two or three directions).  It coats the case and neck.  After it dries a few minutes, I can size easily.  I have tried about 4 or 5 different lubrication methods.  This one will be with me until I find something better.


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