# Is Bob an Atheist?



## HawgJawl (Mar 26, 2011)

Bob believes every word in the Bible is true.  Bob believes that the God of Abraham and Moses created everything.  Bob believes that God sent His only begotten Son as a perfect sacrifice for our sins.

Bob believes that God changed His original plan, as a response to man's wickedness, when God flooded the world.  Bob believes that God regretted creating man and decided to destroy man and start fresh with Noah and his family.  Bob believes that at this point in history, Noah and all Noah's descendants were God's chosen people.

Bob believes that God changed His plan again when He made a covenant by chosing Abraham and his descendants to be the chosen people, instead of all of Noah's descendants.

Bob believes that God spoke through Moses to articulate specific laws to define God's will for His chosen people.  Bob believes that these laws served to judge man's obedience to God.

Bob believe that God changed His plan again when He saw that man could not keep His laws and He sent His Son to save the world so that obedience to the law no longer determined salvation.  Bob believes that God then changed His plan when He decided to include Gentiles in the plan of salvation.

Bob believes that at some point in time, probably during the religious dark ages at the height of the church's corruption, God again saw the wickedness of mankind and again regretted creating man.  Bob believes that God finally gave up on this creation project and turned His attention elsewhere.  

Bob believes that God exists but has chosen to detach Himself completely from "us" since "we" chose to detach ourselves from Him.  Bob believes that the plan has changed again and now there is no plan.  We are on our own.  Bob believes that the wages of sin and disobedience of God, being "separation from God", has already been implemented here on earth.

Does this make Bob an Atheist?


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## 11P&YBOWHUNTER (Mar 26, 2011)

Didn't read the whole thing because I am and bob aint


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## bullethead (Mar 26, 2011)

No Bob is not an atheist.


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## HawgJawl (Mar 26, 2011)

Is a person's view on history the deciding factor as to whether or not they're an Athiest?  Bob has basically the same religious views as an Athiest in regard to his everyday life and the future.  Bob believes that prayer is futile because there is no diety listening and no diety at work in anyone's daily life.  Bob believes that sin does not exist because there is no diety judging mankind.  Bob believes that we are here on our own and when we die, thats the end.  So, the only difference is Bob's view of history.


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## bullethead (Mar 26, 2011)

Bob believes in a deity, it is just that Bob also thinks that the deity has washed his hands of the whole situation.


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## pbradley (Mar 27, 2011)

No, Bob's not an atheist. He's just another man who decided to reject God, just like I did 25 years ago.

God's plans for man depend on man's responses to God. Free will, and all that.

I was raised in the church and I believe that God had a plan for my life that would enrich my spirit, bring me satisfaction, a good relationship with a godly woman, and glorify God through whatever testimony I would be able to give.

After high school, though, I rejected God and his plans for my life and decided to follow after my own way instead.  25 years of misery, a miscarried baby, poverty, heartbreak, and a broken marriage and numerous bad relationships with women of questionable character later, I've decided to come back to God and serve Him in every smallest detail of my life.

Is God's old plan for my life still relevant? No. Is that God's fault? Of course not! *I* am the one who walked away from God's plan.

But, just like the prodigal son in Jesus's parable, God was waiting at the door for me when I came home, and I believe He's preparing a whole new plan to see me through the rest of my life. I also believe that, because of the gifts which He gave me at birth, the broad themes of the original plan will be incorporated into the new plan.

Throughout much of the history of mankind, God has made some changes to His plan. He's needed to because of our responses to Him.  BUT, He's pretty much remained true to the broad theme of the possibility of reconciliation and salvation for mankind.

Finally, what some may perceive to be God "changing His plan" "changing His plan" "changing His plan" could simply be a revelation of a phase of the plan that was previously unknown, or the person interpreting it as change may have simply had an imperfect understanding of the plan all along.

God knows I don't understand the plan.

I no longer need to. I trust in Him.

II Timothy 1:12: ...for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.


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## bullethead (Mar 27, 2011)

God knew you would reject him, it was in his plan.


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## 11P&YBOWHUNTER (Mar 27, 2011)

bullethead said:


> God knew you would reject him, it was in his plan.



Sounds to me like this god feller has a sick mind if he plans everything that happens...


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## bullethead (Mar 27, 2011)

11P&YBOWHUNTER said:


> Sounds to me like this god feller has a sick mind if he plans everything that happens...



Yep!
In one reply we hear "Free Will", no plan we do what we want, God gave us this......, then in the next breath we hear "God has a plan for everyone".....
Either is used to fit a situation, but never together. 

A favorite quote:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
     Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
     Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
     Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
     Then why call him God?
-- David Hume, echoing the logical formulation that we have dubbed the "Epicurean Riddle"


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## stringmusic (Mar 27, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Yep!
> In one reply we hear "Free Will", no plan we do what we want, God gave us this......, then in the next breath we hear "God has a plan for everyone".....
> Either is used to fit a situation, but never together.
> 
> ...



http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=578451


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## bullethead (Mar 27, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=578451



Yes string I did read that thread and to me that quote is still  true, fitting and one of my favorites!


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## Thanatos (Mar 27, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> Bob believes every word in the Bible is true.  Bob believes that the God of Abraham and Moses created everything.  Bob believes that God sent His only begotten Son as a perfect sacrifice for our sins.
> 
> Bob believes that God changed His original plan, as a response to man's wickedness, when God flooded the world.  Bob believes that God regretted creating man and decided to destroy man and start fresh with Noah and his family.  Bob believes that at this point in history, Noah and all Noah's descendants were God's chosen people.
> 
> ...



God does not change his plan. What happened and what will happen is the plan.


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## bullethead (Mar 27, 2011)

Honestly, I CANNOT imagine there is a great playbook somewhere where each and every life is all scripted out.
Right from the beginning then Adam and Eve did not have the option of NOT eating the forbidden fruit. God knew they would and he planned them too. He must have wanted Sin right from the get go. If that is the case then when we are told in the Bible NOT to Sin, he actually wanted us to Sin, we had no choice. I CANNOT imagine little children suffering at the hands of molesters is in the playbook. I CANNOT imagine that the role of "molesterm" is an occupation planned out by a higher power. I CANNOT imagine when these little children are praying for the ordeal to end their prayers are not answered because it is meant to be.
And on and on and on..........horrific example after horrific example.

If that is the way it is I am glad I want no part of it.


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## HawgJawl (Mar 28, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> God does not change his plan. What happened and what will happen is the plan.



According to Genesis Chapter 6, God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.  And it repenteth the Lord that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him at His heart.  And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

The word "repenteth" appears five (5) times in the King James Bible.  Three (3) of those are in the context of a sinner repenting.  The other (1) time the word "repenteth" is spoken by God, is in 1 Samuel 15:10-11.  "Then came the word of the Lord unto Samuel saying, It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments.  And it grieved Samuel; and he cryed unto the Lord all night."

The New King James Version replaces the last line of Genesis 6:7 with "for I am sorry that I have made them" and replaces the first line of 1 Samuel 15:11 with "I greatly regret that I have set up Saul as king".

The same two scriptures in the Today's New International Version utilize the word "regret" in the place of "repenteth".  

Webster's Dictionary defines the word "repent" as "To feel regret for something done or left undone".

To "regret" having done something is to acknowledge that it is now clear that it was a wrong decision or in hindsight it should have been done differently.  A common expression associated with regret is "If I had only known..." or "If I could do it over knowing now what I didn't know then...".

Scrapping an entire project and starting over usually occurs when things do not turn out as anticipated.  Why intentionally create a wicked world just to destroy it and start over?  This indicates that mankind was following its own course (free will) and God was simply judging as opposed to controlling every event Himself.  If God had made this occur or had known that this was going to occur, He would have no reason to feel "regret".


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## Jeff Phillips (Mar 28, 2011)

pbradley said:


> No, Bob's not an atheist. He's just another man who decided to reject God, just like I did 25 years ago.
> 
> God's plans for man depend on man's responses to God. Free will, and all that.
> 
> ...



That'll preach!

Amen!


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## TTom (Mar 28, 2011)

If Bob believes that God exists then he is not an atheist.

If Bob holds the views you mentioned, the best term I can think of o describe him would be some sort of a Deist.


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## Paymaster (Mar 28, 2011)

Bob is not an atheist.

Welcome back to the fold, pbradley!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## ambush80 (Mar 28, 2011)

He's a Christian.  I know many Christians who subscribe to the notion that God set things in motion as is watching; sometimes, maybe intervening, but mostly watching.


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## ambush80 (Mar 28, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> According to Genesis Chapter 6, God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.  And it repenteth the Lord that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him at His heart.  And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
> 
> The word "repenteth" appears five (5) times in the King James Bible.  Three (3) of those are in the context of a sinner repenting.  The other (1) time the word "repenteth" is spoken by God, is in 1 Samuel 15:10-11.  "Then came the word of the Lord unto Samuel saying, It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments.  And it grieved Samuel; and he cryed unto the Lord all night."
> 
> ...



I can accept the explanation given by RJcruiser to me once (I paraphrase):

God turns off his omniscience powers sometimes and that's why he gets surprised by things we do.  Kind of like when Superman walks instead of flies.


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## Thanatos (Mar 28, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> I can accept the explanation given by RJcruiser to me once (I paraphrase):
> 
> God turns off his omniscience powers sometimes and that's why he gets surprised by things we do.  Kind of like when Superman walks instead of flies.



If he turned it off then he would  no linger carry the title of omnipotent. He has been swayed to change his mind though.


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## bullethead (Mar 28, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> I can accept the explanation given by RJcruiser to me once (I paraphrase):
> 
> God turns off his omniscience powers sometimes and that's why he gets surprised by things we do.  Kind of like when Superman walks instead of flies.



Mans excuses to why a perfect being is not perfect. But really that doesn't help back up the "perfect" argument does it?


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## bullethead (Mar 28, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> If he turned it off then he would  no linger carry the title of omnipotent. He has been swayed to change his mind though.




He can't be swayed, it was in the plan, unless he planned to be swayed, then why not do it that way the first time?? ???


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## stringmusic (Mar 28, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Mans excuses to why a perfect being is not perfect. But really that doesn't help back up the "perfect" argument does it?



Your looking in the wrong place if you want every explanation of God, it aint gonna happen.


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## HawgJawl (Mar 28, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> If he turned it off then he would  no linger carry the title of omnipotent. He has been swayed to change his mind though.



Do you have any thoughts regarding post #14?


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## bullethead (Mar 28, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Your looking in the wrong place if you want every explanation of God, it aint gonna happen.



Not looking, just trying to figure out the excuses I hear made for God by humans. Funny how they try to explain the unexplainable....only when it fits though.


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## stringmusic (Mar 28, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Not looking,* just trying to figure out the excuses *I hear made for God by humans. Funny how they try to explain the unexplainable....only when it fits though.



Why?


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## bullethead (Mar 28, 2011)

Entertaining


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## bullethead (Mar 28, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Why?



It is also intriguing to see how people will make up just about anything and contradict themselves , no matter how ridiculous it sounds, to justify it in their own mind.


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## fishinbub (Mar 28, 2011)

No, Bob is not an atheist. 

BTW, does Bob believe God can lie?


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## HawgJawl (Mar 28, 2011)

fishinbub said:


> No, Bob is not an atheist.
> 
> BTW, does Bob believe God can lie?



Absolutely, Yes!

Bob believes that God can do anything.

What exactly would it be that limited God's ability to lie?


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## fishinbub (Mar 28, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> Absolutely, Yes!
> 
> Bob believes that God can do anything.
> 
> What exactly would it be that limited God's ability to lie?



Does Bob believe God is holy and without sin?


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## HawgJawl (Mar 28, 2011)

fishinbub said:


> Does Bob believe God is holy and without sin?



Those terms have no meaning independent of God.  Holy is Godly and no matter what God is, He is Godly.  Sin is defined by God and is whatever God says it is.  God is the only one who could accuse God of not being Godly, which is impossible because no matter what God does, he is being Godly.

I'm constantly being told that no matter what God did in the Old Testament, it was JUST, because God decides what is JUST.


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## 1john4:4 (Mar 28, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> Absolutely, Yes!
> 
> Bob believes that God can do anything.
> 
> ...


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## HawgJawl (Mar 28, 2011)

1john4:4 said:


> HawgJawl said:
> 
> 
> > Absolutely, Yes!
> ...


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## ambush80 (Mar 28, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Your looking in the wrong place if you want every explanation of God, it aint gonna happen.



I think this might do the trick:



HawgJawl said:


> 1john4:4 said:
> 
> 
> > God is the one who defines sin, therefore no matter what God does, it is not considered sin.
> ...


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## JFS (Mar 28, 2011)

pbradley said:


> After high school, though, I rejected God and his plans for my life and decided to follow after my own way instead.  25 years of misery, a miscarried baby, poverty, heartbreak, and a broken marriage and numerous bad relationships with women of questionable character later, I've decided to come back to God and serve Him in every smallest detail of my life.



Is this supposed to show cause and effect, or just show that people who make bad decisions may be better off outsourcing the thought process?

I did the same thing after high school, married a fabulous woman, had 3 healthy kids, have a great job and stayed married for 20 years so far.  What's that prove?  

PS- And what kind of god causes miscarriages to punish the wayward?


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## mattech (Mar 28, 2011)

Is this the bob ya'll are refering to?


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## pbradley (Mar 28, 2011)

JFS said:


> PS- And what kind of god causes miscarriages to punish the wayward?




Where did you hear someone make that claim?


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## JFS (Mar 28, 2011)

pbradley said:


> Where did you hear someone make that claim?



It's implicit in the way you wrote your story.  

Maybe you are just reciting unrelated and irrelevant information, as in "I turned away from god in 1984 and the next year New Coke was a marketing failure."  Assuming you had nothing to do with New Coke it may be fair to say you've not implied causation, but rather merely wasted the reader's time. As written it seems you want to link the events.


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## ambush80 (Mar 28, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Mans excuses to why a perfect being is not perfect. But really that doesn't help back up the "perfect" argument does it?



Devil's Advocate (maybe not the appropriate term):  "Your 'perfect' is not the same as God's 'perfect'.  His 'perfect' is so perfect that you can't even fathom it."


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## pbradley (Mar 28, 2011)

JFS said:


> It's implicit in the way you wrote your story.
> 
> Maybe you are just reciting unrelated and irrelevant information, as in "I turned away from god in 1984 and the next year New Coke was a marketing failure."  Assuming you had nothing to do with New Coke it may be fair to say you've not implied causation, but rather merely wasted the reader's time. As written it seems you want to link the events.



It wasn't explicitly stated, nor even implied.  The weakest possible case that you can make is indeed that you drew an unsupported inference. 

There wasn't even the vaguest hint of causation. The logical fallacy you have just committed is referred to as post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Perhaps you should go back and re-read my post. This time, try reading the whole message for content, rather than just looking for a crime to convict God of.


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## ambush80 (Mar 29, 2011)

pbradley said:


> It wasn't explicitly stated, nor even implied.  The weakest possible case that you can make is indeed that you drew an unsupported inference.
> 
> There wasn't even the vaguest hint of causation. The logical fallacy you have just committed is referred to as post hoc ergo propter hoc.
> 
> Perhaps you should go back and re-read my post. This time, try reading the whole message for content, rather than just looking for a crime to convict God of.



What was the purpose of bringing up all those bad things that happened?  Was it to illustrate that "It rains on the just and the unjust alike"?


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## georgiabow (Mar 29, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=578451



stringmusic, here is a quote from you in the link you provided. my responses to your responses are in red.



> Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
> Then he is not omnipotent.
> Is he able, but not willing?
> Then he is malevolent.
> ...


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## bullethead (Mar 29, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> Devil's Advocate (maybe not the appropriate term):  "Your 'perfect' is not the same as God's 'perfect'.  His 'perfect' is so perfect that you can't even fathom it."



But you can fathom it? Another way that man puts his own spin on the argument that god is so far beyond man, yet his work clearly shows otherwise.


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## HawgJawl (Mar 29, 2011)

Thanatos
Where are you?

How bout post #14?


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## ambush80 (Mar 29, 2011)

bullethead said:


> But you can fathom it? Another way that man puts his own spin on the argument that god is so far beyond man, yet his work clearly shows otherwise.




It really is the only explanation left in the Apologists tool box.


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## stringmusic (Mar 29, 2011)

mattech said:


> Is this the bob ya'll are refering to?





Yea Matt you got it, do you think Bobs sexual frustrations have anything to do with his beliefs?


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## stringmusic (Mar 29, 2011)

georgiabow said:


> stringmusic, here is a quote from you in the link you provided. my responses to your responses are in red.



"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? -no
^^no to being willing to prevent evil, or being able?
This question assumes Gods will is to prevent evil.
Then he is not omnipotent.- wrong
Is he able, but not willing?-not in his will
^^if its not in his will, then he is not willing. divide by zero = complete.
Ok
Then he is malevolent.-wrong
Is he both able and willing?-yes for the able, not in his will.
^^sounds like a sick game to me.
Thats probably because thats what you want it to sound like
Then whence cometh evil?-
see below
Is he neither able nor willing?-no
^^"no" to the able part, or the willing?
Its not in His will. He is able.


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## JFS (Mar 29, 2011)

pbradley said:


> There wasn't even the vaguest hint of causation. The logical fallacy you have just committed is referred to as post hoc ergo propter hoc.



Au contraire.  I would never contend that those events were caused by a rejected deity.  I only want to be sure you don't either.  But the way you wrote it and your talk about god's plans undermine your contention no causation was implied.


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## georgiabow (Mar 29, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Thats probably because thats what you want it to sound like



when it comes to god, that tends to be general theme doesnt it......


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## stringmusic (Mar 29, 2011)

georgiabow said:


> when it comes to god, that tends to be general theme doesnt it......



yes it does, we just have to try to figure out which of us believes a lie and which of us believe the truth.


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## bullethead (Mar 29, 2011)

georgiabow said:


> when it comes to god, that tends to be general theme doesnt it......



Isn't THAT the truth! It is said no one knows what God wants but God, but there are plenty of people that speak for him. In EVERY case somehow God's views are exactly like theirs, God hates the same people they do, they know God's intentions, and they know what God's will is. God is just a bigger, better more fictional version of them!


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## bullethead (Mar 29, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> It really is the only explanation left in the Apologists tool box.



Ahhh! Gotcha!


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## ambush80 (Mar 29, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> yes it does, we just have to try to figure out which of us believes a lie and which of us believe the truth.



Partial lies and partial truths.


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 29, 2011)

mattech said:


> Is this the bob ya'll are refering to?


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 29, 2011)

Bob is an agnostic, I think


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## atlashunter (Mar 30, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> yes it does, we just have to try to figure out which of us believes a lie and which of us believe the truth.



And how does one do that? By faith?


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## stringmusic (Mar 31, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> And how does one do that? By faith?



By whichever means one sees fit.


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## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> By whichever means one sees fit.



How exactly does one determine if something is a lie using faith?


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## stringmusic (Mar 31, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> How exactly does one determine if something is a lie using faith?



For me, its the Holy Spirit, for anyone without it, I dont know.


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