# Another "atheism as religion" thread...



## JB0704 (Mar 18, 2013)

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/03/17/sorry-but-atheism-is-religion/?intcmp=HPBucket

Guess it depends on how you define "religion.  The author has this to say:




> It tells them who their authority is and it informs their values and behavior. It gives them their sense of morality and goodwill, and it guides them in the way they treat themselves and others. Religion does nothing less than construct one’s view of the world.



And for fun, the following paragraphs are a summary of what quite a few of the Christians on this forum have been saying for quite some time.....




> First, they have a functioning God under whom they are subservient (normally it’s science or rationality, but mainly themselves), and that idea of God informs the way they live and interpret their lives. It informs their biases and determines their values, and governs any sense of morality or ethics they adhere too, or ignore.
> 
> Once that’s all settled all that’s left is the preaching.
> 
> ...



Now, I didn't post this to pick a fight with y'all, just to have a little fun with a decent summary of 1000's of comment that have been posted on here.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/03/17/sorry-but-atheism-is-religion/?intcmp=HPBucket
> 
> Guess it depends on how you define "religion.  The author has this to say:
> 
> ...



Since this IS a place devoted to that type of discussion, it is my guess that is why it is talked about so much. I can speak for myself and say that outside of here and ONLY if asked elsewhere...I do not constantly talk about God or no-God or try to spread the atheist "word".


----------



## JB0704 (Mar 18, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Since this IS a place devoted to that type of discussion, it is my guess that is why it is talked about so much.



For clarity, when I mentioned "1000's of comments" I was alluding to the typical Christian responses.  When I read the article, it jumped out at me that the positions were posted by "us" regularly in here.



bullethead said:


> I can speak for myself and say that outside of here and ONLY if asked elsewhere...I do not constantly talk about God or no-God or try to spread the atheist "word".



I would assume that is also true of most of us on here.  This forum gives us an opportunity to scratch an itch that is not acceptable in typical polite coversation (religion, politics, and the great pumpkin).


----------



## stringmusic (Mar 18, 2013)

Great article!


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> For clarity, when I mentioned "1000's of comments" I was alluding to the typical Christian responses.  When I read the article, it jumped out at me that the positions were posted by "us" regularly in here.
> 
> 
> 
> I would assume that is also true of most of us on here.  This forum gives us an opportunity to scratch an itch that is not acceptable in typical polite coversation (religion, politics, and the great pumpkin).



This place gives all of us the opportunity to have conversations that we normally can't have elsewhere. Much appreciated on my end and I am sure with you and other too.


----------



## stringmusic (Mar 18, 2013)

bullethead said:


> This place gives all of us the opportunity to have conversations that we normally can't have elsewhere. Much appreciated on my end and I am sure with you and other too.



Yep, this is usually the first place I scroll down to when I pull up GON.


----------



## JFS (Mar 18, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Guess it depends on how you define "religion.



Or "god" really.   Without a supernatural element it isn't appropriate to categorize guiding principles as "gods".   If the religious want to see if it is going to rain tomorrow and pray over some chicken entrails for guidance, that's religion.  If I check the barometric pressure trends and satellite images, that doesn't mean I have elevated weather instruments to the place of "god", and, maybe to your point, it doesn't mean I've made meteorology my "religion".   Overall that was a pretty hokey article.


----------



## JB0704 (Mar 18, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Much appreciated on my end and I am sure with you and other too.



Absolutely.



			
				JFS said:
			
		

> If I check the barometric pressure trends and satellite images, that doesn't mean I have elevated weather instruments to the place of "god", and, maybe to your point, it doesn't mean I've made meteorology my "religion". Overall that was a pretty hokey article.



Yes, I see your point.  However, a Christian with a basic understanding of science will have a similar experience to you when considering the weather.

When I was a kid, I watched the weather channel all the time, was fascinated with it....and I still prayed that God would hold the rain until after my baseball games 

I think the point was less to those type circumstances, and more to the "guiding principles" aspect.  For instance, you will place some value where we might place God, but we both still have a "guide" for determining what the appropriate action may be.....

(a very basic) Example:

Christian: I recon I won't lie to that fella 'cause the good book says that's wrong.

Atheist: I recon I won't lie to that fella 'cause societal standards indicate that to be unethical.

Either way, the end result is an honest transaction, but the sources used in the decision making process will vary.  However, there is a source in both processes.

I think that's what the author was getting at.


----------



## JFS (Mar 18, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> there is a source in both processes.



Fine as far as that goes, but it is a false equivalence to claim any source is a "religion".   We can all understand the weather, but hurricanes hitting Florida because Disney had a gay day requires an additional layer of supernatural cause, i.e. religion, that a non-religious interpretation does not.


----------



## JB0704 (Mar 19, 2013)

JFS said:


> We can all understand the weather, but hurricanes hitting Florida because Disney had a gay day requires an additional layer of supernatural cause, i.e. religion, that a non-religious interpretation does not.



I agree.  I don't think hurricanes hit Florida because the Disney folks had a gay day.  I would venture to say a majority of Christians rolled their eyes when that fella said that.


----------



## mtnwoman (Mar 19, 2013)

JFS said:


> Or "god" really.   Without a supernatural element it isn't appropriate to categorize guiding principles as "gods".   If the religious want to see if it is going to rain tomorrow and pray over some chicken entrails for guidance, that's religion.  If I check the barometric pressure trends and satellite images, that doesn't mean I have elevated weather instruments to the place of "god", and, maybe to your point, it doesn't mean I've made meteorology my "religion".   Overall that was a pretty hokey article.



Well your religion is as bad as mine. I never even listen to the weather, they barely get it right even once in a while. The blizzard of 93 in western nc, (storm of the century) was not even slightly spot on and it crippled us. Nobody saw that one coming. I've not relied on the weather report since. What we get, we get and I deal with it. What's the difference? Chicken entrals coulda done better than that.


----------



## mtnwoman (Mar 19, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I agree.  I don't think hurricanes hit Florida because the Disney folks had a gay day.  I would venture to say a majority of Christians rolled their eyes when that fella said that.



That thought never crossed my mind either. Whatchu talkin' bout JB, the majority don't count....just drink the koolaid.


----------



## Four (Mar 19, 2013)

I find the whole discussion very odd and unproductive.

It seems that the religious people want to label atheism as a religion, and that it requires faith. I don't exactly know why... its not as if the religious don't know the difference between atheism and theism, right? Since they themselves naturally identify as a theist.. Also, as a theist faith is very important and a good thing to have, but is often used as an insult to an atheist? Wild doublethink.

The only conclusions I can come to is maybe it helps to see atheists as not so different? Generally a theist identifies with other theists of different religions more strongly than an theist. For instance a christian is more likely to trust a buddhist, or jewish person, over an atheist. So maybe identifying atheism as a religion, requiring faith is a way to manage anxiety about someone having such a different worldview than themselves? Be it in helping with empathy, or to manage fear?

Only other thing I can think of is that since atheism generally means non-religious or anti-religious, calling an atheist religious is just a reasonable insult? Like calling a republican a liberal, or a libertarian a socialist?


It's just semantics, but if we start broadening the definition of religion, the word becomes less useful. It's one thing to use it as a metaphor. (maybe ill call me self a freedom zealot?!) But once we say that anything that influences your worldview is a religion, a lot of things become a religion (star wars?)


----------



## JB0704 (Mar 19, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> Whatchu talkin' bout JB, the majority don't count....just drink the koolaid.



No.  I was sayin' the majority of us don't think hurricanes are caused by "gay day."


----------



## JB0704 (Mar 19, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> What I don't get, for one thing, is why are there not intelligent enough scholars to have translated the Bible? If you know Greek and Hebrew that seems to me you'd be able to translate something into English...and yes Aramaic, too. How can that many people be wrong? I think they are as intelligent as scientists, just in a different field of work. And yes I understand differences in the meaning of some words, like in Spanish for example. But gees you'd think there were other intelligent proders and pokers besides scientists.
> 
> Not saying you have to believe 'IN' what the Bible says, just saying this 'lost in translation' gets old.





....now I'm confused......


----------



## JB0704 (Mar 19, 2013)

Four said:


> But once we say that anything that influences your worldview is a religion, a lot of things become a religion (star wars?)



Ever met one of those Star Trek enthusiasts?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 19, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> No.  I was sayin' the majority of us don't think hurricanes are caused by "gay day."



Word of advice, just move along, the majority understands what you've written just fine.


----------



## Four (Mar 19, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Ever met one of those Star Trek enthusiasts?



Certainly there is a difference between gaining moral insight from an allegory, and claiming divinity.

If I read a story about jesus turning the other cheek, and i take some good away from it, does that make me christian?

I find reading plat's allegory of the cave insightful, but i hardly believe the story is true and is divine in nature.


----------



## JB0704 (Mar 19, 2013)

Four said:


> Certainly there is a difference between gaining moral insight from an allegory, and claiming divinity.



Yes.



Four said:


> If I read a story about jesus turning the other cheek, and i take some good away from it, does that make me christian?



No.



Four said:


> I find reading plat's allegory of the cave insightful, but i hardly believe the story is true and is divine in nature.



I don't think scientologists believe the works of their founder is divine either.  From what I understand, they recognize it as fiction.  I do believe scientology is a religion.

I think it's how you apply the insight which determines whether or not it would be a religion.  I guess....


----------



## JB0704 (Mar 19, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Word of advice, just move along, the majority understands what you've written just fine.


----------



## Four (Mar 19, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I don't think scientologists believe the works of their founder is divine either.  From what I understand, they recognize it as fiction.  I do believe scientology is a religion.



Hmm, like L. Ron Hubbard scientology? They do actually believe that nonsence if i understand correctly. I don't know if they think Ron Hubbard was divine but they certainly believe in all the alien volcano stuff.



JB0704 said:


> I think it's how you apply the insight which determines whether or not it would be a religion.  I guess....



Maybe...I dunno, it seems to have a pretty standard set of things going on to be a religion.

Miracles
supernatural occurrences/powers
one or more deities
life after death/reincarnation.


----------



## mtnwoman (Mar 19, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> No.  I was sayin' the majority of us don't think hurricanes are caused by "gay day."



Oh I know, that's why I said I didn't think anything about it being gay day.

You said probably the majority of Christians didn't either, and I just said when does the majority count here? Pick one idgit like jim jones to make an example of what people think about Christians.


----------



## mtnwoman (Mar 19, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> ....now I'm confused......



I is sorry, I meant that for another thread....ding ding.

I bet you are confused.


----------



## StriperAddict (Mar 19, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Ever met one of those Star Trek enthusiasts?


 
It is illogical to assume this statement doesn't offend me.  Totally illogical.



Where's my Science Officer shirt??


----------



## mtnwoman (Mar 19, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Word of advice, just move along, the majority understands what you've written just fine.



Got me on that one didn't ya? 

So I don't understand...what's new?


----------



## JFS (Mar 19, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> You said probably the majority of Christians didn't either, and I just said when does the majority count here? Pick one idgit like jim jones to make an example of what people think about Christians.



Actually what the majority think is kind of besides the point.  Some may think god guides storms toward certain people.  Others have claimed here god intervened to help them find lost jewlery.  Or heal a sick relative.  The point is more that any personal intervention by a supernatural personality, be it gods, ghosts or lepruchans, is fundamentally different than limiting your understanding to natural causes, and it is not kosher to say all causes are equivalent.   Weather was just a simple example, but the general claim in the article that atheists use science and rationality to form a world view and that makes it their religion is just an absurd contortion of language.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 19, 2013)

JFS said:


> Actually what the majority think is kind of besides the point.  Some may think god guides storms toward certain people.  Others have claimed here god intervened to help them find lost jewlery.  Or heal a sick relative.  The point is more that any personal intervention by a supernatural personality, be it gods, ghosts or lepruchans, is fundamentally different than limiting your understanding to natural causes, and it is not kosher to say all causes are equivalent.   Weather was just a simple example, but the general claim in the article that atheists use science and rationality to form a world view and that makes it their religion is just an absurd contortion of language.



Exactly.


----------



## mtnwoman (Mar 19, 2013)

JFS said:


> Actually what the majority think is kind of besides the point.  Some may think god guides storms toward certain people.  Others have claimed here god intervened to help them find lost jewlery.  Or heal a sick relative.  The point is more that any personal intervention by a supernatural personality, be it gods, ghosts or lepruchans, is fundamentally different than limiting your understanding to natural causes, and it is not kosher to say all causes are equivalent.   Weather was just a simple example, but the general claim in the article that atheists use science and rationality to form a world view and that makes it their religion is just an absurd contortion of language.



I knew exactly what you meant.
I use examples all the time, and I get called on it every time.  Some can and some can't, I suppose. 
Neither do I think any of y'all are going around 'preaching' atheism.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 19, 2013)

I don't consider Atheism a religion. I would say all the false religions do  far worse damage to Christianity than Atheism. After having said this why do most Christians feel more comfortable associating with people of other religions more than Atheist? It's like because they share a common bond of believing in a god, it is somehow better than believing in no god.
Have any of you Atheist picked up on this?


----------



## JB0704 (Mar 20, 2013)

StriperAddict said:


> It is illogical to assume this statement doesn't offend me.  Totally illogical.
> 
> 
> 
> Where's my Science Officer shirt??



Oh.....my apologies


----------



## stringmusic (Mar 20, 2013)

StriperAddict said:


> It is illogical to assume this statement doesn't offend me.  Totally illogical.
> 
> 
> 
> Where's my Science Officer shirt??


----------

