# English setter 30 months old gun shy



## TreeTopMan (Jan 6, 2010)

A friend of mine has english setter. He is a wonderful dog. Stays inside most of the time during the week till the kids get home to let him out. He will hunt any thing that moves and will point all day long unless another dog comes up and starts to pass him.He has never had any training. We would like to take him out to the woods with us. But he is afraid when you shot a gun around him. He wants to run away. Does anyone know what we might be able to do to not make him gun shy.We thought about putting him on leash after he trees a squirrel and then shot and just pet him to let him know everything is ok.Then let him get squirrel.But we don't know never had dogs to hunt with and don't know how to train.Thank you for any of your help.


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## 91xjgawes (Jan 6, 2010)

In my experience things go better when you start the young learning sounds, esp during eat time and play time...

Some dogs are naturally gun shy and others are naturally not gun shy.

I would begin with a 22 vs a 12 gauge. 

Lots of yard work.

Also putting the dog on live game makes their instincts come out more, which in return usually makes them forget about the noise...Each dog has a different personality. Try several approaches and you will find out what works best for you and your dog... remember dont give it, dogs need repetition!!


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## Richie27 (Jan 6, 2010)

have your buddy with the gun about 100 or 150 yards behind you and the dog.  Toss a bird (dead or live) in the opposite direction and when that bird is at its highest arch have your buddy shoot.  The dog should be excited enough that the noise won't bother him.  If the dog stops while running have your buddy move back.  Hope this helps


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## SSG (Jan 6, 2010)

Gun shyness is a man made fault. It is normally caused during early training, or I should say by improperly training.Dogs are not born gun shy. There are ways to overcome it , but takes alot of time and training. In my opinion its better left to a pro.


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## 91xjgawes (Jan 6, 2010)

SSG said:


> Gun shyness is a man made fault. It is normally caused during early training, or I should say by improperly training.Dogs are not born gun shy. There are ways to overcome it , but takes alot of time and training. In my opinion its better left to a pro.



bull hocky...

dogs are born gun shy everyday... You as an owner can work on overcoming this trait, or make it worse...


When you were 30 months old, you think if someone shot a 12 gauge close to you, you wouldn't be startled, cry, whine, run, orr some or all of the above??

Saying that a dogs are not born gun shy is just plum absurd. Dogs that dont use their sense of smell like they should use more of other senses (hearing) thus making them more prone to being gunshy


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## SSG (Jan 7, 2010)

When you were 30 months old, you think if someone shot a 12 gauge close to you, you wouldn't be startled, cry, whine, run, orr some or all of the above??

Yes I would, thats exactly what I mean, That would be a man caused problem. The trainer has to start when the pup is young getting it use to loud sounds. But a 30 month old child is not the same as a 30 month old dog. A 30 month old dog is more like a young adult person.
 Most all the experts will tell you that gunshyness is man made. (mistakes in not introducing the gun properly)


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## 91xjgawes (Jan 7, 2010)

SSG said:


> When you were 30 months old, you think if someone shot a 12 gauge close to you, you wouldn't be startled, cry, whine, run, orr some or all of the above??
> 
> Yes I would, thats exactly what I mean, That would be a man caused problem. The trainer has to start when the pup is young getting it use to loud sounds. But a 30 month old child is not the same as a 30 month old dog. A 30 month old dog is more like a young adult person.
> Most all the experts will tell you that gunshyness is man made. (mistakes in not introducing the gun properly)




Ok, so your saying that by shooting a gun and a dog being scared...that is a man made problem? 

sounds to me like that is the perfect definition of gun shyness

I dont argue about much, but there is a dog born gunshy/scared of things, and there is a dog born not gunshy/not scared of anything...

Does the owner/trainer reflect this in early months? of course...but sometimes you get a go-getter, and other times you dont...


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## tiger1996 (Jan 7, 2010)

I know how they used to break'em.Do not know if it is acceptable way now.Get the dog in a boat ,go to the middle of a lake and shoot.He will jump out and swim,pick him up and put him back in when he is tired.Repeat till he is no longer jumps or flinches.My grandpa used to do it that way and it always worked.Good luck.


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## SSG (Jan 7, 2010)

What I,m saying is that you can take an entire litter of Pointers, setters , Labs etc. If you introduce the gun properly there will be no gunshyness in that entire litter. On the other hand if you introduce the gun improperly you stand the chance of having the whole litter come up gun shy.. The pups do not come out of the womb gunshy. I,ve talked with too many pro trainers and read too many expect articles to believe otherwise. Call some of the top breeders or trainers and ask them.


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## TreeTopMan (Jan 7, 2010)

Thanks for all the ideas. I know my friend doesn't have money to take dog to a pro-trainer.We just thought it would be fun for all of us and falcor to go hunting together.Because he loves hunting in the neighborhood by hisself.I know that he doesn't like 12 ga are a 30/30. He has come up when the boys are getting ready to practice shooting. Then when the first shoot is fire he takes off like a bullet going back home. I think you have a good idea about starting with a 22 around him first. Don't think we'll try the boat idea.Might would work but I know he loves riding in the boat and playing in the water wouldn't want him to get scared of that to.


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## hogdawg (Jan 8, 2010)

91xjgawes said:


> Some dogs are naturally gun shy and others are naturally not gun shy.



I would like to know if my lab puppy is naturally gun shy.  How do i go about doing this?


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## bobman (Jan 8, 2010)

Dont ever shoot around any dog ever if the dogs not after game

I'll take it that as a yes you have tree squirells... good this sure fire way to get a dog past its noise shyness.

First let me define that a gun noise shy dog with good prey drive normally just hasn't yet made the connection in his mind with the

 "flush/boom/ I get to bite the critter" sequence

what you are going to do is teach him what the sequence is so the dog expects to grab a squirell when the gun fires

1) start taking the dog on a leash to a local park or woods full of squirells.. city parks work best because the squirells are relatively tame and sassy.  DO this before work at dawn if you can, there will be few or no people and the squirells are active.

What your going to do is sit in a place with your back up against a tree with the dog beween your knees and let the dog start to watch squirells running around doing their thing. 

Once he really starts looking like hes dying to chase one, wait until the squirell is far enough away from a tree that its going to be very close call for the squirell then let him off the leash and let him chase it. If you time it right the squirell will just barely beat the dog back to a tree and hopefully the dog will be looking up at the squirell maybe even yipping at it. 

Thats good you want the dog fired up and looking up at the squirell.

encourage him with lots of good boys

now lead him to another part of the park and do it again

Once you can tell he understands the drill usaully about 6-10 days of these "hunts"  you will move to step two 

2) getting him to expect the kill (NO FIREARMS) 

Obviously you will have to find some spot you can legally ( or atleast get away with killing squirells)

Forget any kind of firearm 22 blank pistols are not a good starting point for a gunshy dog.


The dog should by now be running squirells up trees and dancing around under the trees watching them run the limbs.

If hes to that point you will start shooting the squirells back out of those trees.

While you are working on step one buy or borrow a powerful pellet rifle and practice with it away from the dog so hes not hearing it, a noise shy dog will be afraid of it. 

Do this practicing until you are confident you can wack a squirell on the first shot with it, if you can put a scope on it all the better. 22 caliber pellet rifles like a good benjamin work well. 

Start killing squirells, try to kill them with one shot or atleast hit them so they fall, the dog will kill them.

DO this for a couple weeks until the dog gets to the point that when you raise the pellet rifle hes expecting the squirell to drop for him to catch. 

When you get to the point the dog knows the squirell is about to fall (you will see it in his actions when you raise the gun) you will move to step three

3)you are ready for the firearm part.

This is the transition where its very important you kill with one shot (use a heavy load of fours and a 12 guage Ideally one with a long barrell) 

Its extremely important that WHEN the dog hears the shot  he SEES the squirel falling toward him instantly. This is where his prey drive combined with his expectation of grabbing the squirell will overcome his fear of the noise.


Key points

1)use a gun set up so you only shoot once and the squirell falls immediately, a long barreled gun ( less muzzle blast)12 ga with a IMP cylinder choke with 4's, is what I used for this purpose.

2) practice so you hit the first squirell  you shoot at

If your aim is true the dog will pounce on the falling squirell and ignore the gun.

ONE SHOT ONLY MAKE  IT COUNT NO BOOM BOOM BOOM

Dont even put more than one shell in the gun so you aren't tempted. Before you try this take the shotgun somewhere where the dog cannot hear and shoot some stationary cans, aiming a shotgun is different than wing shooting.

Take the easy shots dont shoot at a squirell you might miss

3) talk the dog up telling him what a good boy he is in an excited voice so hes really fired up.







Next you can move to birds if there are wild bird in you area.

Now you need to start over, you have to build the same prey drive and birdyness you did with the squirells 

1)First  put the gun away, then work the dog for a while on birds, get him birdy really talk her up after the flush with no gun shots, just work her on birds until he really shows he knows whats a bird is and is really birdy with great excitement. If he chases flushed birds thats good let her, in fact encourage it, let her know that finding and chasing birds is really a good thing. 

2)then do the same thing for a week or two ( a lot of bird contacts and points )with the gun and no shells, let her get used to the sight of the gun until he ignores it and focuses completely on the birds. 


3) then with a 22 rifle ( NOT A PISTOL) and the weakest blanks available, start shooting after the flush when hes chasing and really keyed up, shoot just once use a single shot bolt action 22 rifle,not a pistol, point the muzzle away from him and shoot only when hes really focused and chasing the flushed bird. 

4) Shoot only once every two or three birds for the first week, until he pays no attention to it at all. 

5) If he shows any fear or uncertainty go back to just bird work until he is focused on the birds again. 

6)after he shows no sign of hearing the 22 with the light blanks....

Just like the squirell drill its time to shoot a pheasant/quail 

Again use only one shot use a stout load so the bird falls and make that shot count this part is important because he has to see the bird fall at the instant the shot occcurs,  that will overcome any residual fear he may have. 

7) next hunting season only hunt him by yourself and try to never shoot more than once, do not hunt with multiple people 

After a season he should be OK but I would be cautious even second season.

Never shoot at a bird that vouluteers up that the dog is not after, this will set the dog back

dont allow a multiple shots to be fired over the dog

never allow this dog or any dogs to be exposed to fireworks

I bring my whole kennel in my house on the fourth of JULY and turn up music so they dont hear the fools around my home with their fireworks. I hate fireworks.


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## 91xjgawes (Jan 8, 2010)

hogdawg said:


> I would like to know if my lab puppy is naturally gun shy.  How do i go about doing this?



You know more than i do...


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## bobman (Jan 8, 2010)

hogdawg said:


> I would like to know if my lab puppy is naturally gun shy.  How do i go about doing this?



Expose the pup correctly from the start and it will not be PM me if you want instructions


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## hogdawg (Jan 8, 2010)

91xjgawes said:


> You know more than i do...



i know.

just messin' with ya.


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## 91xjgawes (Jan 8, 2010)

hogdawg said:


> i know.
> 
> just messin' with ya.


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## TreeTopMan (Jan 8, 2010)

bobman sound like you might have done this dog training a time or two. Thought I might be reading a book or term paper there for a minute.

Thanks for your impute


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## Jim P (Jan 10, 2010)

The man knows what he's talking about.


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## TreeTopMan (Jan 10, 2010)

Jim P said:


> The man knows what he's talking about.



Will thats what I came up with. When I read what he wrote. We took Falcor out Sat. did not do step one though he was already doing that part. Had a great time.He take off for the next Tree rat after shoot.Think He is going to be fine.


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## Tim1980 (Jan 24, 2010)

I have trained retrievers for years and I have yet to have a gunshy dog if introduced properly to gunfire.  I never shoot around a dog until it is crazy for birds, then I start shooting from a distance (100 yds or so ).  If it reacts move farther away.  Then slowly move closer as long as dog ignores shot and chases bird.  There is a lot of literature on properly introducing dogs to gunfire that is all similar to what we are saying.  One thing I can say is if you take a dog to the skeet range to see if its gunshy it probably will be!!


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