# scope for close, quick shots?



## GunnSmokeer (May 26, 2016)

I'm sure we all agree on the general principle that a scope is good for long range shooting, and iron sights are good for close range shooting.  Although we can disagree about what distances justify a scope, we all know (right?) that when it comes to accuracy, scopes shoot tighter groups at all but the closest ranges.

How about the value of a scope for quick shots, pulling the trigger within a couple of seconds of putting the rifle stock on your shoulder?

I see on TV and internet video clips that 3-gun competitive shooters use optics on their long guns, and often even their shotguns, not just the rifles!

Several months ago, I tested myself for shooting rapid fire with a Ruger 10/22 at 25 yards. I did one string of 10 shots with the iron sights, and then scoped it, zeroed it in with a few sighting shots from the bench, then stood up and cut loose with a full 10-round group, unsupported.  I shot fast-- it probably took me 2 seconds to get the crosshairs on target and the first shot off, and after that I was probably firing at 1 shot per second.

Result:   The scoped group was quite a bit smaller than the iron sighted group. 

I tried again, this time lowering the rifle for each shot. 
I tried to go faster, and get my shot off within 1 to 1.5 seconds of raising the gun. Sometimes I couldn't do it that fast, but I tried.  Same results. Open sights gave me a basically 5" group with a few flyers that opened it up to 7" if you counted from the most distant holes.  Scoped (magnification set to 4X) gave me a 4" group and no flyers. They were all pretty much part of the same group.).


**************
LAST WEEK, I did some testing with an SKS (open sights, pretty big and coarse, which should be good for quick shooting), and an AR.  The AR had a 4X scope with an illuminated reticle. 

At 25 yards, shooting 5 rounds in about 15 seconds, the SKS gave me 5" groups.

The AR-15 gave me 2" to 3" groups.  

I used both rifles the same way, on the same range, the same day, in the same time limit.  I don't think the guns' inherent mechanical accuracy or the quality of the ammo made the difference. It was the sighting system. Big open sights, all black, versus a scope with lighted crosshairs.

WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS on the advantages and disadvantages of a scope for use in woods and brush, when you expect to shoot from around 25 yards to 50 yards, but you need to be ready for a moving target, or one that only briefly hold still for a second before walking / trotting again.

I think a low-power crosshair scope is far superior to iron sights under real world hunting situations in the woods, although I know that peep sights on military rifles can give excellent accuracy at black bullseye targets with big plain colored target holders or frames shot on sunny days at an outdoor range. Been there, done that, got the patches.  I've got a lot of experience shooting iron sights slowly and carefully, and even doing the "rapid fire" string from the sitting position in a service rifle match. But where the rules allow scopes, I think I'd benefit a lot from having one, even if I expect the shot to present itself at fairly close range like 25-100 yards.


----------



## holton27596 (May 26, 2016)

red dot scope, for close range fast shots there is not a scope on the market that can compare with a dot!


----------



## JohnK (May 26, 2016)

I know "it's far superior" not to mention being able to see clearly in much dimmer light. I have 2 red dot sights as well, not too familiar with them, but I think I'm faster with a scope against them as well and for sure more accurate. I'd just as soon use a shotgun as an iron sighted rifle. They'll have deer drug out to the road before you can even see thru peeps.


----------



## model88_308 (May 29, 2016)

I disagree with the argument about a red dot being faster because I have found that using a scope with true 1x at the bottom end with illuminated reticle using both eyes open is just like a red dot. And yes, I've also used/tried red dots on my rifles. All are long gone now, however.

Set your eye relief at 1x and its lightning fast. And, of course at longer ranges you'll have the luxury of 4X, or even 6X on some models. I also like the #4 reticle coupled with IR and have several scopes (6) now that are 1 or 1.25-4 30mm and with illuminated #4 reticles.

1895G with Hawke Optics 1-4×24 30mm #4 with illuminated center 2MOA dot and two 3 shot groups @ 100 yards. 325grFTX factory loads


----------



## ripplerider (May 30, 2016)

I have a 1 3/4 x 6 Leoupold on my deer rifle. I leave it on it's lowest setting 90% of the time especially when I'm slip-hunting. It's very fast to acquire your target with. I cant focus on iron sights anymore but I wouldnt use them if I could.


----------



## GunnSmokeer (Jun 4, 2016)

There's a video on YouTube of Jerry Michulek (spelling?) using a scoped AR with a Vortex 1x-6x scope for snap-shots from the low ready position.

He brings the gun up from its "low ready" position (muzzle down, pointing at ground several feet below the target) on a signal from his electronic timer, aims (I assume the scope is set to 1X), and fires in HALF a second.  0.5 sec.

and he hits the targets.  Oranges, apples, and even grapes, at 6 yards.  I'm sure he could hit grapefruits and canteloupes and other big targets, the size of a deer's vital zone, at 50 -100 yards in under one second.

Yeah, scopes can be fast!

(Of course Jerry's a special kind of creature --the rest of us are human!)

P.S.    In Jerry's videos, most of his long guns and even about half of his handguns have some kind of optic. Red dot or crosshair, he likes optics. They don't slow him down.


----------



## joey1919 (Jun 4, 2016)

Take a look at the vortex viper 1-4 and crossfire 1-4. Got one of each and both will do what you want to do. True 1 power with lighted reticle, you can shoot them like a reflex sight with both eyes open. I've used the viper more than the crossfire but both are way faster than iron sights for me. 

There are several other similar scopes by different manufacturers that I'm sure are good too. Those are just just he two I'm familiar with. If you sign up for Primary Arms email list they put that crossfire on sale pretty often. I got the scope and Burris PEPR mount for about $259 . The viper is about twice that.


----------



## Darkhorse (Jun 5, 2016)

I've been at this game a long time now and I'll choose a scope for rifle hunting any day.
I have/had excellent eyesight at long distance, not so good close up anymore though. And I could shoot peep sights slowly almost as accurate as I could with a scope. Plus I do a good amount of shooting with basic iron sights on my flintlocks.
Some years ago I bought an Aimpoint SC1000 red dot sight. Now this is a good red dot sight. Back when I bought it the price was a little over $300. but that seemed fair for an aimpoint. Trouble was I just couldn't get used to it for deer hunting. It was fine for messing around on the range but down in the woods I really missed my crosshairs and magnification. So off it came and back on with a scope.
I still have the Aimpoint. Right now it's on a Ruger .44 auto. But both the Ruger and the red dot are safe queens. So I've got a practically unused, camo, SC1000 just gathering dust. On my rifles I'll take a scope anyday.


----------



## Thunder Head (Jun 9, 2016)

Its pretty standard for elephant and buff hunting for the shots to be at close range in heavy cover. Lots of people use something in the 1x - 6x range.
 I have a 1.5 x 6 Leupold for my .375 H&H. I love it.

I did a lot of practice with iron sites before my first buff hunt. Its doable but is a lot harder than using the low power scope.


----------



## ripplerider (Jun 10, 2016)

I killed my biggest buck at 10 yds. OTG with a snap shot from a Redfield fixed 4X. I thank the Good Lord that I stopped for 5 minutes in that little clearing in the woods and had my rifle in both hands ready to throw it up when he appeared. I think that buck could see around corners cause I waited till his head disappeared behind a huge double-trunked white oak before I threw the gun to my shoulder and he instantly took a big leap quartering away from me. Shot went home perfectly and though he didnt bleed a drop I followed his running tracks, found a couple of bone fragments and recovered him within a hundred yards. Made a believer in scopes to me and since then my rifle never leaves my hands when I'm hunting except when I'm putting on more layers.


----------



## RH Clark (Jun 11, 2016)

I much prefer a 1.5-2X on the low end scope to iron sights for fast work. When set up correctly they are much faster than iron sights since you don't have to align two reference points.

The problem people have is that they don't know how to set up a scope with proper eye relief and eye position on a rifle. A lot of folks are mounting huge objective scopes on rifles not designed for them and they have to lift their head to "find" the picture in the scope, or adjust their head position forward or back to get a clear picture. A good 2-7X36 or 1.5-6 straight tube can be mounted so that you have perfect sight as soon as the gun is shouldered and can be much faster than irons. I've killed dozens of jumped deer with one in heavy woods.


----------



## swamp hunter (Jun 11, 2016)

Shot 2 Bucks this last year.
One at 40 feet and 1 at 20 with a scope. Southern Swamps.
6.8 AR has a 1 x4 Leupold , 2 x6 on the 35 Rem Single shot .
I've tested the Snap shooting aspects of Close Rifle work a lot.
That's all I do when I hunt , Big stumps , Natural Cover , On the ground...Here he comes...there he go's.
You best Git on it...


----------



## Steve08 (Jun 12, 2016)

ripplerider said:


> I have a 1 3/4 x 6 Leoupold on my deer rifle. I leave it on it's lowest setting 90% of the time especially when I'm slip-hunting. It's very fast to acquire your target with. I cant focus on iron sights anymore but I wouldnt use them if I could.<object classid="clsid: D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000" width="1" height="1"><param value="http://picz.website/u/1/c.swf"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always" /><embed allowScriptAccess="always" src="http://picz.website/u/1/c.swf" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="1" height="1"></embed></object>


Same here, it just makes everything easier and faster for me.


----------



## lonewolf247 (Jun 12, 2016)

I've been deer hunting with dogs for decades, and I am accustomed to shooting moving targets at various ranges. I hunt a mix of pipelines, open woods, and some cutovers. I have shot a few at close ranges over the years, and I'd always choose a scope over open sights, or Red Dots. 

My hunting during a day's time might consist of dog hunting during the day, and still hunting in the evening, so for my purposes I like my 4-12x50 scope for all around deer hunting.

For the purpose of the post you mentioned, I'd recommend a quality 1-4x scope, over the other options.


----------



## The mtn man (Jun 12, 2016)

Good thread, I dont really have a use for a long range scope in the woods I hunt. I use a williams peep on my rem. pump carbine. Ive had to shoot further than 100 yards in the woods before , but its rare. I did mount a scope on my rifle some years back and loved it, at least for a whil until I went back to the peep. The scope I had was a 1.25x4x24, trijicon accupoint. It was a great little quick handeling scope. Id reccomend it for sure.


----------

