# Why does JESUS Offend?



## christianhunter (Jul 19, 2009)

I didn't want to high jack another thread, so I started this one.Why does THE NAME Of JESUS,and GOD(One and The Same)offend atheists,and unbelievers?
Lets see,I'm totally at odds with homosexuality,atheism,animal rights activists,cults,satanism,just to name a few.Yet I don't rally against,or invade their inner circle.I avoid them completely!
GOD with HIS Swift HAND Of Judgment,will deal with everything unrighteous on HIS appointed day.I believe that the reason,"In GOD We Trust"on our money,and The Ten Commandments displayed anywhere in the public.Is an offense,to anything wicked or unrighteous.What else could it be?
I give my testimony of belief,to anyone that will hear it.If they don't want to hear it,we should move on.JESUS CHRIST IS LORD!


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## WTM45 (Jul 19, 2009)

CH, I honestly do not believe "Jesus" or "God" as purely names and representative words of Christianity offends non-Christians any more than "Buddha" or "Allah" offends Christians.
It's just the fundamental that each should be allowed to follow and believe what they wish without interference from a legislative entity that is the debate.

It is tough, and always will be, because so much of what a person bases their political and social stances on is influenced greatly by their choice of religious belief system.


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## Lowjack (Jul 19, 2009)

People who take issue with his name or his character are simply people who are very close to the darkness of evil, plain and simple.
Then there are those who are offended not by Say Jesus Or God by the people who represent them on earth.
I'm speaking of the Jimmy Swaggart, Oral roberts, and the whole Bunch from TBN, The Homosexual priests and all of those little devils which are called anti-Christ By John, those offend me.
Shalom


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## GibbyDiesel (Jul 19, 2009)

But one thing I don't understand, if atheists don't believe in God and Jesus and everything they did and stand for, why are they trying their hardest to disprove his "inexistence"?  If they don't believe, then leave Him and us alone.


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## elfiii (Jul 19, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> CH, I honestly do not believe "Jesus" or "God" as purely names and representative words of Christianity offends non-Christians any more than "Buddha" or "Allah" offends Christians.
> It's just the fundamental that each should be allowed to follow and believe what they wish without interference from a legislative entity that is the debate.
> 
> It is tough, and always will be, because so much of what a person bases their political and social stances on is influenced greatly by their choice of religious belief system.



True enough WTM, but on the flip side, there are some who are revulsed at the mention of God or Jesus Christ. In fact, they want to eradicate all mention of them in public discourse, citing the so called "Separation of church and state" nonsense. 

State sponsored religion is one thing. Individuals being barred from their constitutionally protected right to advocate or espouse their beliefs in public is another thing altogether. People who would attempt to deny that right have a major problem with me. In fact, they are "fighting words". Un-Christian of me I know on this beautiful Sunday afternoon, but I'm Welsh. We like to fight!

I shall atone for that statement in contrite prayer.


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## WTM45 (Jul 19, 2009)

The majority of people who are Agnostic or are Atheist have done a lot of research towards making their decisions.  In most cases, they have done much more than a believer who is born into a religious belief system.
The major difference between the stances is faith.


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## WTM45 (Jul 19, 2009)

elfiii said:


> True enough WTM, but on the flip side, there are some who are revulsed at the mention of God or Jesus Christ. In fact, they want to eradicate all mention of them in public discourse, citing the so called "Separation of church and state" nonsense.
> 
> State sponsored religion is one thing. Individuals being barred from their constitutionally protected right to advocate or espouse their beliefs in public is another thing altogether. People who would attempt to deny that right have a major problem with me. In fact, they are "fighting words". Un-Christian of me I know on this beautiful Sunday afternoon, but I'm Welsh. We like to fight!
> 
> I shall atone for that statement in contrite prayer.




I clearly understand, and I do realize there are fundamentalist evangelical Atheists just like there are fundamentalist evangelical religious belief system followers!

Thankfully our forefathers saw fit to establish a way for all to believe, worship and live in an open country!  It's that delicate balance that has to be maintained somehow.

I know I'm also willing to fight for that right and freedom!


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## earl (Jul 19, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> I didn't want to high jack another thread, so I started this one.Why does THE NAME Of JESUS,and GOD(One and The Same)offend atheists,and unbelievers?
> Lets see,I'm totally at odds with homosexuality,atheism,animal rights activists,cults,satanism,just to name a few.Yet I don't rally against,or invade their inner circle.I avoid them completely!
> GOD with HIS Swift HAND Of Judgment,will deal with everything unrighteous on HIS appointed day.I believe that the reason,"In GOD We Trust"on our money,and The Ten Commandments displayed anywhere in the public.Is an offense,to anything wicked or unrighteous.What else could it be?
> I give my testimony of belief,to anyone that will hear it.If they don't want to hear it,we should move on.JESUS CHRIST IS LORD!





I do not find them in and of themselves offensive. What I do find offensive are the efforts  to infringe on my , or others,equally important right to believe differently.


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## earl (Jul 19, 2009)

elfiii said:


> True enough WTM, but on the flip side, there are some who are revulsed at the mention of God or Jesus Christ. In fact, they want to eradicate all mention of them in public discourse, citing the so called "Separation of church and state" nonsense.
> 
> State sponsored religion is one thing. Individuals being barred from their constitutionally protected right to advocate or espouse their beliefs in public is another thing altogether. People who would attempt to deny that right have a major problem with me. In fact, they are "fighting words". Un-Christian of me I know on this beautiful Sunday afternoon, but I'm Welsh. We like to fight!
> 
> I shall atone for that statement in contrite prayer.




Don't you believe that by endorsing the christian God ,the government has, in fact and deed, ''sponsered'' a state religion. Will you advocate the right of muslims to have quotes from the quran engraved on public buildings ?
  I would prefer to see neither on buildings that my tax dollars build.


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## pnome (Jul 19, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> I didn't want to high jack another thread, so I started this one.Why does THE NAME Of JESUS,and GOD(One and The Same)offend atheists,and unbelievers?
> Lets see,I'm totally at odds with homosexuality,atheism,animal rights activists,cults,satanism,just to name a few.Yet I don't rally against,or invade their inner circle.I avoid them completely!
> GOD with HIS Swift HAND Of Judgment,will deal with everything unrighteous on HIS appointed day.I believe that the reason,"In GOD We Trust"on our money,and The Ten Commandments displayed anywhere in the public.Is an offense,to anything wicked or unrighteous.What else could it be?
> I give my testimony of belief,to anyone that will hear it.If they don't want to hear it,we should move on.JESUS CHRIST IS LORD!




There is nothing offensive about the name of Jesus.  Nothing offensive about you standing in a public park on a soapbox proclaiming your love for him.  Nothing offensive about your children saying a prayer in school.  Nothing offensive about a judge displaying the 10 commandments in his yard.

What IS offensive, is using my tax dollars to promote and advance your religion.  It is offensive when Christians flout the constitution and use the government to force the rest of us to pay homage to their deity.


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## Jeffriesw (Jul 19, 2009)

Haven't we covered this question once or twice?


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## THREEJAYS (Jul 19, 2009)

because you can't serve two masters


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## Lowjack (Jul 19, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> The majority of people who are Agnostic or are Atheist have done a lot of research towards making their decisions.  In most cases, they have done much more than a believer who is born into a religious belief system.
> The major difference between the stances is faith.




How do you research what you can't see or submit to testing ?


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## Lowjack (Jul 19, 2009)

earl said:


> Don't you believe that by endorsing the christian God ,the government has, in fact and deed, ''sponsered'' a state religion. Will you advocate the right of muslims to have quotes from the quran engraved on public buildings ?
> I would prefer to see neither on buildings that my tax dollars build.



Muslims do have inscriptions in ther murals in the nations they have made subject to their rule.
But this Goverment and Nation was Created under the Judeo Christian Principals not the muslim one, but don't worry if Mr. Soetero has his ways you will soon be bowing 3 times a day facing east.


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## Lowjack (Jul 19, 2009)

pnome said:


> There is nothing offensive about the name of Jesus.  Nothing offensive about you standing in a public park on a soapbox proclaiming your love for him.  Nothing offensive about your children saying a prayer in school.  Nothing offensive about a judge displaying the 10 commandments in his yard.
> 
> What IS offensive, is using my tax dollars to promote and advance your religion.  It is offensive when Christians flout the constitution and use the government to force the rest of us to pay homage to their deity.


Are you the only one that pays taxes ?
and since 86% of Americans claim to believe in God and pay taxes, why are your taxes more important than theirs, doesn't the majority rule ?


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## WTM45 (Jul 19, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> How do you research what you can't see or submit to testing ?



Good question.  All a person can do is investigate the available resource materials, ask questions of those who are knowledgeable in the field and seek an individual understanding and discovery.
Emotions do affect the outcome of such a search, I am confident.


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## jason bales (Jul 19, 2009)

jesus does not offend me but this does, i have a problem with people in the name of christ harrasing me or trying to change me and the ones that look down on me for the things i do or dont do. i believe in god i was blessed with parents that took me to church to learn about god and was further blessed to get into hunting with my sunday school teacher. some people need to learn to keep there opions to thereselves and not make alot of good people look ignorant and prejudice to others. i think some of you may know what im talking about and others may be the ones im talking about. god give us free will only i will have to anwser for my sins not anyone else. just needed to vent.


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## Capt Quirk (Jul 19, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> I didn't want to high jack another thread, so I started this one.Why does THE NAME Of JESUS,and GOD(One and The Same)offend atheists,and unbelievers?



Same reason Mohamed, Buddha, and the Tooth Fairy might offend you. Your church/upbringing/beliefs don't include them as real. Some Judaeo Christian Churches don't even accept Satan or Ghosts as real either, so it's pretty well leveled out across the board.


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## ddd-shooter (Jul 19, 2009)

jason bales said:


> jesus does not offend me but this does, i have a problem with people in the name of christ harrasing me or trying to change me and the ones that look down on me for the things i do or dont do. i believe in god i was blessed with parents that took me to church to learn about god and was further blessed to get into hunting with my sunday school teacher. some people need to learn to keep there opions to thereselves and not make alot of good people look ignorant and prejudice to others. i think some of you may know what im talking about and others may be the ones im talking about. god give us free will only i will have to anwser for my sins not anyone else. just needed to vent.



Sounds like you have met lots of hypo-Christians. Sorry. 
I hope you meet some good ones soon, as there are some real believers out there. There is none righteous. Some who have been forgiven forget that sometimes.


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## Lowjack (Jul 19, 2009)

jason bales said:


> jesus does not offend me but this does, i have a problem with people in the name of christ harrasing me or trying to change me and the ones that look down on me for the things i do or dont do. i believe in god i was blessed with parents that took me to church to learn about god and was further blessed to get into hunting with my sunday school teacher. some people need to learn to keep there opions to thereselves and not make alot of good people look ignorant and prejudice to others. i think some of you may know what im talking about and others may be the ones im talking about. god give us free will only i will have to anwser for my sins not anyone else. just needed to vent.


So you will consider harrasement if you were going to cross a railroad track and I see the train coming but you haven't and I yell out hey ! Stop ! a train is coming and you will be killed ! ????
So when I say to you, there is life after life and Jesus die so the next life it will be a good one, you take issue with that ?


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## Lowjack (Jul 19, 2009)

Capt Quirk said:


> Same reason Mohamed, Buddha, and the Tooth Fairy might offend you. Your church/upbringing/beliefs don't include them as real. Some Judaeo Christian Churches don't even accept Satan or Ghosts as real either, so it's pretty well leveled out across the board.



Neither one offend me, One doesn't exist and the other two are dead and buried 

But Jesus' tomb is empty.


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## Capt Quirk (Jul 19, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> But Jesus' tomb is empty.


That is what the law would call a lack of evidence to support your case.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jul 19, 2009)

elfiii said:


> True enough WTM, but on the flip side, there are some who are revulsed at the mention of God or Jesus Christ. In fact, they want to eradicate all mention of them in public discourse, citing the so called "Separation of church and state" nonsense.



So do you have an example of a nonreligious type who has done this?  If so I would be interested in hearing how it went down.


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## farmasis (Jul 19, 2009)

Why?

Because he testifies that the unbeliever is evil. (John 7:7, John 3:19-21)


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## farmasis (Jul 19, 2009)

Six million dollar ham said:


> So do you have an example of a nonreligious type who has done this? If so I would be interested in hearing how it went down.


 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20090718/pl_mcclatchy/3274259


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## Six million dollar ham (Jul 19, 2009)

farmasis said:


> http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20090718/pl_mcclatchy/3274259



Nay, farmasis.  Nay.  WTM was referring to actual separation of church and state.  Elfii referred to "the flip side" on which some nonbelievers detest the very name and attempt to invoke separation of c & s inaccurately or dishonestly.  I am looking for an example of said flip side.  

Good effort, but ultimately....fail.


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## ted_BSR (Jul 19, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> People who take issue with his name or his character are simply people who are very close to the darkness of evil, plain and simple.
> Then there are those who are offended not by Say Jesus Or God by the people who represent them on earth.
> I'm speaking of the Jimmy Swaggart, Oral roberts, and the whole Bunch from TBN, The Homosexual priests and all of those little devils which are called anti-Christ By John, those offend me.
> Shalom



What really offends me is Walt Disney.  The whole personification of animals thing is dangerous!  Do I even have to mention "Veggie Tales"?  I know kids that refuse to eat carrots!!!

But really, the offense and the defense is the whole point.  It is a "Spiritual Battle".

I agree with with Lowjack.  The people who are highly offended by the name Jesus,  Christ, or God, are very close to darkness.  They have no choice but to be repulsed.  That is the power of his name.


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## The Original Rooster (Jul 19, 2009)

Maybe a hit dog will holler. Those that are offended may not feel comfortable with their relationship with Christ, or may not have a relationship at all.


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## ted_BSR (Jul 19, 2009)

RoosterTodd said:


> Maybe a hit dog will holler. Those that are offended may not feel comfortable with their relationship with Christ, or may not have a relationship at all.




Very true, but a hit dog may also bite you in the face!


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## The Original Rooster (Jul 19, 2009)

ted_BSR said:


> Very true, but a hit dog may also bite you in the face!



Only once....


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## christianhunter (Jul 19, 2009)

ted_BSR said:


> What really offends me is Walt Disney.  The whole personification of animals thing is dangerous!  Do I even have to mention "Veggie Tales"?  I know kids that refuse to eat carrots!!!
> 
> But really, the offense and the defense is the whole point.  It is a "Spiritual Battle".
> 
> I agree with with Lowjack.  The people who are highly offended by the name Jesus,  Christ, or God, are very close to darkness.  They have no choice but to be repulsed.  That is the power of his name.



EXACTLY!!!
AMEN, thats what I was waiting for.


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## christianhunter (Jul 19, 2009)

Buddah,Mohammed,Harry Khrishna,none of them offend me,they are dead.Satan is real,yet if you are filled with THE HOLY SPIRIT,he is a defeated foe.


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## christianhunter (Jul 19, 2009)

earl said:


> I do not find them in and of themselves offensive. What I do find offensive are the efforts  to infringe on my , or others,equally important right to believe differently.



earl my friend,read what you have just written.It is a two way street.When they take the polls about who believes in GOD,not every one of them believes in the one true GOD.Some are cults,some believe in a higher power,but don't know what it is.I have rights also,so answer me honestly.Who has the right to express their beliefs in this "politically correct"Country,an unbeliever or believer?


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## earl (Jul 19, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Muslims do have inscriptions in ther murals in the nations they have made subject to their rule.
> But this Goverment and Nation was Created under the Judeo Christian Principals not the muslim one, but don't worry if Mr. Soetero has his ways you will soon be bowing 3 times a day facing east.





Once again . You are proclaiming that your religion is the one and only.
 There is to be no government sponsored religion. You are to be free to worship as you please. Is there a part of this that you don't understand ? Muslims have become a major religion in the US. Without separation of state and ALL religion , the door will be wide open for ANY religion to put their quotes on OUR government buildings. By insisting that YOUR religion be allowed to ''advertise'' on public areas , YOU are paving the way for the muslims and others to claim equal rights to the same.
  In other words ,you are shooting your self in the foot !!!
  I can't believe that when you look at all the equal rights legislation that has been passed in the last 50 years alone ,that folks can't understand where this is headed. Whether you like it or not ''all men are created equal'' as are their religion when it comes to the law.


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## earl (Jul 19, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> earl my friend,read what you have just written.It is a two way street.When they take the polls about who believes in GOD,not every one of them believes in the one true GOD.Some are cults,some believe in a higher power,but don't know what it is.I have rights also,so answer me honestly.Who has the right to express their beliefs in this "politically correct"Country,an unbeliever or believer?



Please read my response to Lowjack.

  If you notice ,I put ''and others''in my post. Any person of any faith ,belief ,or religion HAS the right to express their beliefs,christians included.  That being said ,No religion,belief ,or faith should be held above another by the government.
  Our government ,at present and by law ,has said that all men are equal . This also applies to their religion. By law there will be no governmental religion, all are equal. Since they are all equal ,by law, how long do you think it will be before it's not the atheists and agnostics suing ,but the muslims or hindus to have their quotes ,mottos,scriptures ,or whatever you want to call them displayed in the same manner that you have. 
  To answer your question an unbeliever and a believer have equal rights .Legally . Think about that. Your definition  of an unbeliever is some one who doesn't believe in ,and accept Christ. Do you really want them to have equal access to the walls of public spaces ?
  I prefer no one have access.


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## earl (Jul 19, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Are you the only one that pays taxes ?
> and since 86% of Americans claim to believe in God and pay taxes, why are your taxes more important than theirs, doesn't the majority rule ?





Your 86% christians have put this nation where it is today. Not saying that is good or bad. Just saying that if you are correct ,the oft lamented cry that this nation is morally bankrupt must have at least an 86% approval.


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## The Original Rooster (Jul 19, 2009)

Earl brings up a good point. Our Constitution guarantees freedom of religion to all and preference toward none. While I believe that the founding fathers were influenced by Christian principles, they had the foresight to see that this country might not always be led by Christians. At least by creating a system of government that guaranteed our right to worship as we see fit, they prevented any chance of "Daniel in the lion's den" moments for all of us.


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## jason bales (Jul 19, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> So you will consider harrasement if you were going to cross a railroad track and I see the train coming but you haven't and I yell out hey ! Stop ! a train is coming and you will be killed ! ????
> So when I say to you, there is life after life and Jesus die so the next life it will be a good one, you take issue with that ?



i have no problem with someone who may share that with me, but i dont want to hear about everytime i see them or talk to them. you cant fix everything.


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## ted_BSR (Jul 19, 2009)

earl said:


> Please read my response to Lowjack.
> 
> If you notice ,I put ''and others''in my post. Any person of any faith ,belief ,or religion HAS the right to express their beliefs,christians included.  That being said ,No religion,belief ,or faith should be held above another by the government.
> Our government ,at present and by law ,has said that all men are equal . This also applies to their religion. By law there will be no governmental religion, all are equal. Since they are all equal ,by law, how long do you think it will be before it's not the atheists and agnostics suing ,but the muslims or hindus to have their quotes ,mottos,scriptures ,or whatever you want to call them displayed in the same manner that you have.
> ...



Our country is what it is, and it was founded on a certain set of beliefs.  It _does_ allow for any person to worship what and how they wish, but it was founded on a certain set of beliefs.  Should this be forsaken because someone is offended?  It may be a football nation, but if you want to watch soccer you can.  It is still a football nation.

I mentioned this on another thread, but it bears repeating.  I cannot verify, but I heard in England people are no longer allowed to fly the Union Jack because it is offensive to "nationalized immigrants".  Love it or leave it baby!  In God we trust!


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## ted_BSR (Jul 19, 2009)

Forgot this!


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## Six million dollar ham (Jul 19, 2009)

ted_BSR said:


> I mentioned this on another thread, but it bears repeating.  I cannot verify, but I heard in England people are no longer allowed to fly the Union Jack because it is offensive to "nationalized immigrants".  Love it or leave it baby!  In God we trust!



Since you can not verify, it does not bear repeating.


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## ted_BSR (Jul 19, 2009)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Since you can not verify, it does not bear repeating.



I find the internet a poor source of "verification", but since you are trying to be clever, I will oblige.

http://rjjago.wordpress.com/2008/05...to-remove-english-flag-because-its-offensive/


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## Six million dollar ham (Jul 19, 2009)

ted_BSR said:


> I find the internet a poor source of "verification", but since you are trying to be clever, I will oblige.
> 
> http://rjjago.wordpress.com/2008/05...to-remove-english-flag-because-its-offensive/



1) That's an excellent source.  It's an article.  Good work.

2) I wasn't being clever; I was just trying to help you be a better contributor to this forum.

3) None of this is relevant to the topic of this thread so I am finished with this particular discussion.

4) If you open this up as a topic in another section here, let me know.


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## jimbo4116 (Jul 20, 2009)

God is a generic term and like beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, so is God in the mind of the beholder.

God takes many shapes, forms and meanings for people and for some people God has no shape, form nor meaning.

My question to all that oppose and support the phrases referencing God in our lexicon and on our buildings is, "Have you ever seen wording that says in "in Jesus Christ we trust and/ or believe?"

I have not and therefore I don't see these displays on public buildings, stamps, or coinage and currency as promoting just Christianity.  When taken in their simple context they respect the diety in many religions and faiths.
They certainly do not demand in one adhere to or accept any certain religious teachings or discipline. 

The phrase "in God we trust" is as easy for a non-beleiver to ignore or subscribe to as doing the same with "e pluribus unum".  

The bottom line is I can only prove God exists through my life and how I live it.  Non-believers cannot prove God does not exist so they are left with removing him from their lives with petty arguments against symbolism.

If the non-beleivers are as strong in their faith in the non-existence of a Diety as I am in my faith in God, they could as easily walk past the monuments containing a few simple words as I can walk past the monuments to sin visited by others and pray for their salvation. 

Like it or not the growth and flourishing of this country during its first two centuries  were based on and sustained by a belief in God and the moral life He ask us to lead.  That has been chipped away at over the last half century and look at where we are. A zeal to be politically corrects has driven the need to fixed something that was not broke and we now all suffer for it.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jul 20, 2009)

jimbo4116 said:


> God is a generic term and like beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, so is God in the mind of the beholder.
> 
> God takes many shapes, forms and meanings for people and for some people God has no shape, form nor meaning.
> 
> My question to all that oppose and support the phrases referencing God in our lexicon and on our buildings is, "Have you ever seen wording that says in "in Jesus Christ we trust and/ or believe?"



That's interesting because Country Girl and several others disagree with you.  Apparently this "God" is the one referenced in the Holy Bible (no others before him).  Father of J. Christ.  Do you plan to correct them in that thread by pointing out that the "God" they reference is actually a generic "god"?



> I have not and therefore I don't see these displays on public buildings, stamps, or coinage and currency as promoting just Christianity.  When taken in their simple context they respect the diety in many religions and faiths.
> They certainly do not demand in one adhere to or accept any certain religious teachings or discipline.



Again, see above.  They apparently disagree with this notion.



> The phrase "in God we trust" is as easy for a non-beleiver to ignore or subscribe to as doing the same with "e pluribus unum".



"United States of America" also appears on coins and stuff.  I have no issues with it because it, much like "e pluribus unum", does not wrongly assert that I trust in any deity.



> The bottom line is I can only prove God exists through my life and how I live it.  Non-believers cannot prove God does not exist so they are left with removing him from their lives with petty arguments against symbolism.



Despite how you or anyone lives their life, it does not convince me.  Not  being disrespectful, but I just don't understand your logic here about how that proves existence.



> If the non-beleivers are as strong in their faith in the non-existence of a Diety as I am in my faith in God, they could as easily walk past the monuments containing a few simple words as I can walk past the monuments to sin visited by others and pray for their salvation.



I presume these monuments of sin are liquor stores, strip clubs, casinos, etc.  These are privately owned businesses.  Your tax dollars don't go to prop these up.


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## christianhunter (Jul 20, 2009)

jimbo4116 said:


> God is a generic term and like beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, so is God in the mind of the beholder.
> 
> God takes many shapes, forms and meanings for people and for some people God has no shape, form nor meaning.
> 
> ...



AMEN Brother!!!


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## Lowjack (Jul 20, 2009)

earl said:


> Once again . You are proclaiming that your religion is the one and only.
> There is to be no government sponsored religion. You are to be free to worship as you please. Is there a part of this that you don't understand ? Muslims have become a major religion in the US. Without separation of state and ALL religion , the door will be wide open for ANY religion to put their quotes on OUR government buildings. By insisting that YOUR religion be allowed to ''advertise'' on public areas , YOU are paving the way for the muslims and others to claim equal rights to the same.
> In other words ,you are shooting your self in the foot !!!
> I can't believe that when you look at all the equal rights legislation that has been passed in the last 50 years alone ,that folks can't understand where this is headed. Whether you like it or not ''all men are created equal'' as are their religion when it comes to the law.



You mind showing me the separation of church and State clause in the Constitution.
Can there be really a separation of State and Church when more than 56% of tax payers are Christians and 30% more god believing citizens, Isn't the State for The People and By The People  and of the people ? 86% who pay taxes and support the State are God believing People , so they have to be separated from the State ?
What are you smoking Peyote ?, LOL


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## pnome (Jul 20, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> You mind showing me the separation of church and State clause in the Constitution.
> Can there be really a separation of State and Church when more than 56% of tax payers are Christians and 30% more god believing citizens, Isn't the State for The People and By The People  and of the people ? 86% who pay taxes and support the State are God believing People , so they have to be separated from the State ?
> What are you smoking Peyote ?, LOL




This country is based on the rule of law, not mob rule.  Thankfully.


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## jimbo4116 (Jul 20, 2009)

Six million dollar ham said:


> That's interesting because Country Girl and several others disagree with you.  Apparently this "God" is the one referenced in the Holy Bible (no others before him).  Father of J. Christ.  Do you plan to correct them in that thread by pointing out that the "God" they reference is actually a generic "god"?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You apparently did not read from the beginning or did not understand the point.

I am not trying to prove to you that God exists, you do not have to trust in God. That is the point of it all, the Government does not demand you believe nor trust in a god.

I pointed out that God means different things to different people. I am not endorsing or belittling anyones beliefs.

I ask if you can point out to me where a government entity had promoted Christianity by naming Jesus Christ by name.

The casinos, liquor stores and the like collect taxes for the government therefore are an agent for the government.
But again you make an argument from a trivial point of veiw.  Therefore the Government supports and encourages uses of these products knowing full well that misery will be inflicted on some.  Sorta like one hand washes the other.

When the government begins to enforce "e pluribus unum" by forcing each of us into Sunday School at the First Baptist Church and require that we tithe to same church I will agree that the line has been crossed.

But until then I think you can shake off the word "in God we trust" and use that penney as easily I can pass by the liquor store.


----------



## pnome (Jul 20, 2009)

Tagging in for 6 here....



jimbo4116 said:


> I am not trying to prove to you that God exists, you do not have to trust in God. That is the point of it all, the Government does not demand you believe nor trust in a god.



However, the government is using taxpayer money to put the unconstitutional, official, national motto on coins and such, thus forcing me to pay for the promotion of your religion.



jimbo4116 said:


> I pointed out that God means different things to different people. I am not endorsing or belittling anyones beliefs.



So you'd be ok with a national motto that was "In a god we trust" ??  Or maybe "In gods we trust"

Somehow I think not.  No, you want it to reference your "God" with a capitol "G"




jimbo4116 said:


> I ask if you can point out to me where a government entity had promoted Christianity by naming Jesus Christ by name.



I'd have to do some research, but I'm sure there is an example somewhere of some public school teacher reciting a prayer over the loudspeaker at some school sporting event that mentions him.  

That's beside the point though.   The point here is the "God" with a capitol "G" is a reference to the Judeo-Christian god of Abraham.  Not some ambiguous deity.
_
_


jimbo4116 said:


> The casinos, liquor stores and the like collect taxes for the government therefore are an agent for the government.



That's a stretch.

Using this logic, it could be said that all places that collect sales tax are agents for the government.

Just because the government demands a tax, does not make the privately owned liquor store a government entity.  




jimbo4116 said:


> When the government begins to enforce "e pluribus unum" by forcing each of us into Sunday School at the First Baptist Church and require that we tithe to same church I will agree that the line has been crossed.



Somehow, I think your threshold would be quite different if the religion that the government was endorsing was not your own.


----------



## wholenotem (Jul 20, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> The majority of people who are Agnostic or are Atheist have done a lot of research towards making their decisions.  In most cases, they have done much more than a believer who is born into a religious belief system.
> The major difference between the stances is faith.


Are you saying people who have been born into Christian homes, have an easier belief system, since they've been indoctrinated in whatever mom and dad believe?


----------



## WTM45 (Jul 20, 2009)

I'm saying that the numbers show the odds are with a person being born into ANY religious belief system rarely if seldom question it, investigate it, research other belief systems outside of it, or outright reject all religious belief systems because of parental influence.


----------



## leroy (Jul 20, 2009)

Why 30+ years ago did it change up untill then there was prayer in school, before goverment meetings, before school events, given by our president in public, and no one seemed to mind.


----------



## earl (Jul 20, 2009)

leroy said:


> Why 30+ years ago did it change up untill then there was prayer in school, before goverment meetings, before school events, given by our president in public, and no one seemed to mind.





Excellent  question. Look back 10 or so years of when these changes were made. These were some scary days. Then as now people were looking for divine answers in bad times. However ,in those days ,questions were not tolerated . Neither were different religions or even thoughts. You could even lynch folks you didn't agree with.


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## jimbo4116 (Jul 20, 2009)

Original Post in Navy
Pnome response in black
My reply in red
-----------------------------

Tagging in for 6 here....


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo4116  
I am not trying to prove to you that God exists, you do not have to trust in God. That is the point of it all, the Government does not demand you believe nor trust in a god. 

However, the government is using taxpayer money to put the unconstitutional, official, national motto on coins and such, thus forcing me to pay for the promotion of your religion.

Until the SCOTUS declares it unconstitutional the national motto is not unconstitutional.  Being as this is no johnny come lately slogan, it seems to stood that test well.

The IRS is not forcing you to pay for the promotion of MY religion.  The Constitution does not forbade references to God by government entities. It ensures that the Federal Government will not make laws concerning the an establishment of religion. Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbo4116  
I pointed out that God means different things to different people. I am not endorsing or belittling anyones beliefs. 

So you'd be ok with a national motto that was "In a god we trust" ?? Or maybe "In gods we trust"

Somehow I think not. No, you want it to reference your "God" with a capitol "G"

I am OK with no national motto at all. But the motto was developed and approved by the founding fathers. Many of whom had varying beleifs in God, what and who God was and his importance in their lives. 

Given that there is historical precedence for the Motto being display on Government Buildings and Currency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo4116  
I ask if you can point out to me where a government entity had promoted Christianity by naming Jesus Christ by name. Quote:

I'd have to do some research, but I'm sure there is an example somewhere of some public school teacher reciting a prayer over the loudspeaker at some school sporting event that mentions him. 

That's beside the point though. The point here is the "God" with a capitol "G" is a reference to the Judeo-Christian god of Abraham. Not some ambiguous deity.

This is really the crust of my argument that this whole forcing religion arguement made by non-believers is basically sour grapes.

Most non-believers make their position on the absurdity of something you can not prove. Not realizing it is faith not proof that God requires.

I am sure that somewhere some teacher has made a pronouncement regarding Jesus Christ. But does that make that teacher who receives a salary from the taxes collected by the Casino Operator or Liquor Store Owner any more or less an agent of the Government.  If and when the teacher preaches a sermon and demands faith in Jesus Christ, you have an argument and valid reason to remove that teacher. That would come under the establishment clause.

Originally Posted by jimbo4116  
The casinos, liquor stores and the like collect taxes for the government therefore are an agent for the government. 
That's a stretch.

Using this logic, it could be said that all places that collect sales tax are agents for the government.

Just because the government demands a tax, does not make the privately owned liquor store a government entity. 

It was meant to be a stretch to illustrate the argument you were sure to make about the school teacher.  See, I have faith in human nature.  In your haste to unprove God, you were sure to make a counterpoint out of something just as absurd. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo4116  
When the government begins to enforce "e pluribus unum" by forcing each of us into Sunday School at the First Baptist Church and require that we tithe to same church I will agree that the line has been crossed. 

Somehow, I think your threshold would be quite different if the religion that the government was endorsing was not your own. 

Here you make an assumption with not only not all the facts but none of the facts.  

As to my religion I am comfortable with it.  I have no problem with the Government removing any motto from buildings or currency.  It will not change my faith one iota.

My question to is what will it do for you?  Will suddenly you feel vindicated in your non belief in God?  Will you find satisfaction that the historical connection between God and Country will be broken? 

Remember this, regardless of whether you believe in God or not, you and every other American are the beneficiaries of the connection between Americans and God. It was afterall a search for religious freedom that estabished this Country.


----------



## WTM45 (Jul 20, 2009)

The motto of the United States was not established by the "Founding Fathers" at all.
It was voted into law some 180 years after we became a country by a group of elected representatives.  Not founders.

It is mostly a statement of defiance against Communism, which at the time was mis-identified as being completely Atheistic.


----------



## earl (Jul 20, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> The motto of the United States was not established by the "Founding Fathers" at all.
> It was voted into law some 180 years after we became a country by a group of elected representatives.  Not founders.
> 
> It is mostly a statement of defiance against Communism, which at the time was mis-identified as being completely Atheistic.





 Now you are just bringing confusion to the table by bringing facts into the discussion.


----------



## leroy (Jul 20, 2009)

earl said:


> Excellent  question. Look back 10 or so years of when these changes were made. These were some scary days. Then as now people were looking for divine answers in bad times. However ,in those days ,questions were not tolerated . Neither were different religions or even thoughts. You could even lynch folks you didn't agree with.




30 yrs ago would have been 1979 I dont remember to many lynchings in my town in that time period. If anything things were much better back then people had more respect. What has taking public prayer from schools improved?  Or prayers before local government meetings? nothing that I know of. What would taking the nations motto down improve? again nothing.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Jul 20, 2009)

Because Jesus was uncorupted TRUTH... The World absolutely hates PURE TRUTH!

DB BB


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## jimbo4116 (Jul 21, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> The motto of the United States was not established by the "Founding Fathers" at all.
> It was voted into law some 180 years after we became a country by a group of elected representatives.  Not founders.
> 
> It is mostly a statement of defiance against Communism, which at the time was mis-identified as being completely Atheistic.



You are correct that the Founding Fathers did not establish the phrase of "In God We Trust" as a national motto.  But they most certainly discussed God and His role in the Past and Future of the Country.

Please refer the reverse side of the Great Seal of the US.
Annuit Coeptis.

You are correct that "In God We Trust" was made the National Motto in 1956 by Congress.

You are incorrect in stating this was its origin.  It was approved for engraving on coinage in the 1800s and first appeared on coins in the 1860s.

There is historical precedence to the term "In God We Trust" as well as the intentions of the Founding Fathers to include God in the future of the Country.


----------



## earl (Jul 21, 2009)

leroy said:


> 30 yrs ago would have been 1979 I dont remember to many lynchings in my town in that time period. If anything things were much better back then people had more respect. What has taking public prayer from schools improved?  Or prayers before local government meetings? nothing that I know of. What would taking the nations motto down improve? again nothing.





Try 1956 to around 1946.


----------



## WTM45 (Jul 21, 2009)

jimbo4116 said:


> You are correct that the Founding Fathers did not establish the phrase of "In God We Trust" as a national motto.  But they most certainly discussed God and His role in the Past and Future of the Country.
> 
> Please refer the reverse side of the Great Seal of the US.
> Annuit Coeptis.
> ...




I did not say anything about it's origin, jimbo!


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## christianhunter (Jul 21, 2009)

Mohammed,Budda,Baal none of these offend non-believers.In fact if they were to protest a gathering of muslims,they would be arrested.Christians on the other hand are not protected,regardless of what some may say.My Church has a sign ministry on Saturdays,beside an intersection.They get yelled at,cursed,and have obscene hand gestures made at them.There is Power in THE NAME Of JESUS,and the flesh and darkness cannot receive it.


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## earl (Jul 21, 2009)

''Mohammed,Budda,Baal none of these offend non-believers.''
You would be wrong from my standpoint.


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## WTM45 (Jul 21, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> Mohammed,Budda,Baal none of these offend non-believers.




Wanna bet?

Non-believers focus mainly on the evangelical and fundamental believers, regardless of the system chosen.


----------



## ambush80 (Jul 21, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> Mohammed,Budda,Baal none of these offend non-believers.In fact if they were to protest a gathering of muslims,they would be arrested.Christians on the other hand are not protected,regardless of what some may say.My Church has a sign ministry on Saturdays,beside an intersection.They get yelled at,cursed,and have obscene hand gestures made at them.There is Power in THE NAME Of JESUS,and the flesh and darkness cannot receive it.




Who could get mad at Buddah?  I mean, just look at him.


----------



## christianhunter (Jul 21, 2009)

earl said:


> ''Mohammed,Budda,Baal none of these offend non-believers.''
> You would be wrong from my standpoint.



Are you picking on me buddy?
Besides you said you are not an atheist,nor an unbeliever.


----------



## christianhunter (Jul 21, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> Who could get mad at Buddah?  I mean, just look at him.



Yeah I remember,you don't like overweight people.


----------



## ambush80 (Jul 21, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> Yeah I remember,you don't like overweight people.



The only issue I have with them is that their unhealthy lifestyle dives up the cost of health insurance; like smokers.  Other than that, I don't have any moral issues with people being obese.  Then again my moral compass spins freely.


----------



## earl (Jul 21, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> Are you picking on me buddy?
> Besides you said you are not an atheist,nor an unbeliever.





Of course I am !
 Don't want ''other '' folks getting the wrong idea .


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## Country_Girl (Jul 22, 2009)

GibbyDiesel said:


> But one thing I don't understand, if atheists don't believe in God and Jesus and everything they did and stand for, why are they trying their hardest to disprove his "inexistence"?  If they don't believe, then leave Him and us alone.


  For REAL!  I don't see people who don't believe in the tooth fairy or Santa Claus going to the ends of the Earth to prove they don't exist.... 

I "knew" I like you for a reason!


----------



## Country_Girl (Jul 22, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> I didn't want to high jack another thread, so I started this one.Why does THE NAME Of JESUS,and GOD(One and The Same)offend atheists,and unbelievers?
> Lets see,I'm totally at odds with homosexuality,atheism,animal rights activists,cults,satanism,just to name a few.Yet I don't rally against,or invade their inner circle.I avoid them completely!
> GOD with HIS Swift HAND Of Judgment,will deal with everything unrighteous on HIS appointed day.I believe that the reason,"In GOD We Trust"on our money,and The Ten Commandments displayed anywhere in the public.Is an offense,to anything wicked or unrighteous.What else could it be?
> I give my testimony of belief,to anyone that will hear it.If they don't want to hear it,we should move on.JESUS CHRIST IS LORD!



You beat me to the punch here!  I've been wondering the very same thing....


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## Country_Girl (Jul 22, 2009)

Capt Quirk said:


> Same reason Mohamed, Buddha, and the Tooth Fairy might offend you. Your church/upbringing/beliefs don't include them as real. Some Judaeo Christian Churches don't even accept Satan or Ghosts as real either, so it's pretty well leveled out across the board.


  OK... this is probably going to be considered off topic, so.....  LOL..... but HOW in the world can any Judeo Christian church believe in God but not Satan?  No... That's a serious question, y'all.  That's just nuts...


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## Country_Girl (Jul 22, 2009)

jason bales said:


> jesus does not offend me but this does, i have a problem with people in the name of christ harrasing me or trying to change me and the ones that look down on me for the things i do or dont do. i believe in god i was blessed with parents that took me to church to learn about god and was further blessed to get into hunting with my sunday school teacher. some people need to learn to keep there opions to thereselves and not make alot of good people look ignorant and prejudice to others. i think some of you may know what im talking about and others may be the ones im talking about. god give us free will only i will have to anwser for my sins not anyone else. just needed to vent.


 Vent away, bud.    It took me a long time to find a church home for the very same reasons... All that "holier than thou" garbage while they were trying to size up my net worth just really stuck in my craw.  Seems a lot of Christians tend to forget that they are sinners, too... Would rather point out the splinter in someone else's eye than deal with the plank in their own.

Sad to say, but we are all guilty of that at one time or another.  Whether we like it or not, it is part of human nature.... Being critical of others is a really tough habit to unlearn.


----------



## Country_Girl (Jul 23, 2009)

ted_BSR said:


> Very true, but a hit dog may also bite you in the face!


 Yeah... and the ones around here tend to be a bit rabid... 



RoosterTodd said:


> Only once....


 



Six million dollar ham said:


> That's interesting because Country Girl and several others disagree with you.  Apparently this "God" is the one referenced in the Holy Bible (no others before him).  Father of J. Christ.  Do you plan to correct them in that thread by pointing out that the "God" they reference is actually a generic "god"?


 Oh, no you don't sir.  Don't you go trying to drag me into your infantile Mickey Mouse garbage again.  Not going there.  Have only been here a week, and I'm seriously starting to wonder why.

I believe what I believe, and you believe what you believe.  The 2 will never be the same, and you have become nothing more than a broken record.


----------



## Banjo (Jul 23, 2009)

pnome said:


> There is nothing offensive about the name of Jesus.  Nothing offensive about you standing in a public park on a soapbox proclaiming your love for him.  Nothing offensive about your children saying a prayer in school.  Nothing offensive about a judge displaying the 10 commandments in his yard.
> 
> What IS offensive, is using my tax dollars to promote and advance your religion.  It is offensive when Christians flout the constitution and use the government to force the rest of us to pay homage to their deity.



This is what kills me......

Is Humanism a religion?  How about Evolution?  One must have faith to believe in either.

The State promotes both....with our tax dollars....especially in their indoctrination centers....public education.


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## pnome (Jul 23, 2009)

Banjo said:


> This is what kills me......
> 
> Is Humanism a religion?  How about Evolution?  One must have faith to believe in either.
> 
> The State promotes both....with our tax dollars....especially in their indoctrination centers....public education.



Evolution is science.  It gets taught in "science" class.  

I'm no fan of the public schools myself, but you vastly misunderstand science.  Not surprising as you've no doubt been taught your whole life that it's the devil's work.


----------



## ted_BSR (Jul 26, 2009)

pnome said:


> Evolution is science.  It gets taught in "science" class.
> 
> I'm no fan of the public schools myself, but you vastly misunderstand science.  Not surprising as you've no doubt been taught your whole life that it's the devil's work.



Oh Boy, Science rears its ugly head again.  Science is only a language (it is man's work).  It is a manner in which to describe things.  It does not answer questions.  It only describes things in a language that we can understand (because we wrote the language).  It does not reveal the truth.
I like the dancing banana!


----------



## Israel (Jul 26, 2009)

Jesus is an offense because the prince of this world is tormented by him.


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## pnome (Jul 26, 2009)

ted_BSR said:


> It does not reveal the truth.



Define "truth"


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## ted_BSR (Jul 26, 2009)

pnome said:


> Define "truth"



actuality


----------



## pnome (Jul 27, 2009)

ted_BSR said:


> actuality



What are you getting at then? 

Science does in fact reveal things that are actual.

The Earth is a sphere.  That is a fact, that is what it actually is.  Science revealed this.

Or are you trying to make some argument based off of the Uncertainty principle?<cite></cite>


----------



## Israel (Jul 27, 2009)

pnome said:


> What are you getting at then?
> 
> Science does in fact reveal things that are actual.
> 
> ...




Is it a sphere?
It approaches the concept of sphere closer than perhaps a cube...but it is not "perfectly" spherical.
What is knowable, then, and how?
Is anything true?
Does a true sphere exist anywhere other than the mind, as a concept for defining things relative to it?
Blow a cue ball up to earth size and discover it's valleys and peaks exceed those of earth.
I would even say our ability to perceive "perfection" totally apart from any demonstrable physical manifestation of it...is of God.
The interesting difference being, perhaps even marvelously paradoxical, of course, is that our conception of the perfect "God"...is actually far more deficient than the reality.
What we should know in reality remains darkened to a great extent to us....yet the things we claim to know....spheres, cubes, "points"...exist only in our minds, and imperfect in our reality.

There is a place where a perfect sphere exists, along with a perfect "point", cube...and not leastly, perfect love. 
Maybe even perfect grammar.


----------



## pnome (Jul 27, 2009)

Israel said:


> Is it a sphere?
> It approaches the concept of sphere closer than perhaps a cube...but it is not "perfectly" spherical.



A sphere, as opposed to flat.  Don't get bogged down in semantics.


----------



## ambush80 (Jul 27, 2009)

Israel said:


> Is it a sphere?
> It approaches the concept of sphere closer than perhaps a cube...but it is not "perfectly" spherical.
> What is knowable, then, and how?
> Is anything true?
> ...



These "absolute" things only exist in the mind.  They can be defined by a mathematical equation, which is as accurate as we can get, so far.  God exists in this realm too but impossible to define.  What practical use is the concept of Him then?


----------



## Israel (Jul 27, 2009)

I would say to you, who at this point seems to be denying the existence of the "perfect" (God)...that this very propensity in man... this desire to know the perfect...is of God.
But that is not what brought me to him.
But, a bruised reed he will not break, smoldering flax he will not quench.


----------



## pnome (Jul 27, 2009)

Israel said:


> I would say to you, who at this point seems to be denying the existence of the "perfect" (God)...that this very propensity in man... this desire to know the perfect...is of God.
> But that is not what brought me to him.
> But, a bruised reed he will not break, smoldering flax he will not quench.



The Onotological Argument is it then?


----------



## Israel (Jul 27, 2009)

Nah, nothing so fancy sounding. 
Like I said, this is not what brought me to him.
He just showed up.


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## christianhunter (Jul 27, 2009)

pnome said:


> Define "truth"



That is what pilate asked THE LORD.How odd for you to pose the same question.


----------



## christianhunter (Jul 27, 2009)

pnome said:


> What are you getting at then?
> 
> Science does in fact reveal things that are actual.
> 
> ...



I thought "science"said the earth was slightly pear shaped?


----------



## pnome (Jul 27, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> I thought "science"said the earth was slightly pear shaped?




Semantics, see post 84.


----------



## christianhunter (Jul 27, 2009)

pnome said:


> Semantics, see post 84.



If Christianity changed at all,in the core belief.I could see the skepticism and disbelief.It hasn't in 2,000 years!

Science changes constantly.We were wrong about this,and wrong about that.This is the way it really is.How can you trust in something that is forever changing?
You can't!


----------



## pnome (Jul 27, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> Science changes constantly.We were wrong about this,and wrong about that.This is the way it really is.How can you trust in something that is forever changing?
> You can't!



That ability to change, is a strength.

To illustrate my point:


----------



## christianhunter (Jul 27, 2009)

Interesting charts,colorful too.JESUS is the ALPHA And OMEGA,THE FIRST And THE LAST.No arrows for starting over and repeating,I couldn't have explained it better myself.


----------



## ambush80 (Jul 27, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> Interesting charts,colorful too.JESUS is the ALPHA And OMEGA,THE FIRST And THE LAST.No arrows for starting over and repeating,I couldn't have explained it better myself.



Look at the chart on the right side again and replace "get an idea" with "Obama is the greatest president ever".   

I thought that might help you understand.


----------



## christianhunter (Jul 27, 2009)

pnome said:


> That ability to change, is a strength.
> 
> To illustrate my point:



Show me any evidence that contradicts the existance of GOD.There is none!
The world and the universe speak volumes of HIS existance.You have to be willing to see it,and hear it.


----------



## pnome (Jul 27, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> Show me any evidence that contradicts the existance of GOD.There is none!



Answer this first:  Is there anything that I could show you that would prove to you God does not exist?   Is there anything that, if it were true, would falsify your theory?


----------



## christianhunter (Jul 27, 2009)

pnome said:


> Answer this first:  Is there anything that I could show you that would prove to you God does not exist?   Is there anything that, if it were true, would falsify your theory?



That is hypothetical at best.No offense,but at the least it is absurd.There is nothing tangible,that you could show me of the abscense of GOD.JESUS tomb is empty,yet there are skeptics.HIS miracles were recorded,even by secular witnesses,yet there are unbelievers.Only GOD can soften a heart of stone.Only GOD can open eyes that refuse to see.Only GOD can heal ears that refuse to hear.The wise and wicked,walk hand in hand sometimes.


----------



## pnome (Jul 27, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> There is nothing tangible,that you could show me of the abscense of GOD.



That's what I thought.


----------



## christianhunter (Jul 27, 2009)

pnome said:


> That's what I thought.



You only quoted one sentence,what about the rest of the post?


----------



## pnome (Jul 27, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> JESUS tomb is empty,yet there are skeptics.



It is?  Prove it.



> HIS miracles were recorded,even by secular witnesses,yet there are unbelievers.



Miracles you say? That sounds pretty extraordinary.  Prove it.



> Only GOD can soften a heart of stone.Only GOD can open eyes that refuse to see.Only GOD can heal ears that refuse to hear.The wise and wicked,walk hand in hand sometimes.



I am neither wicked, nor particularly wise.   God has not opened my eyes nor has he healed my ears.


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## christianhunter (Jul 27, 2009)

pnome said:


> It is?  Prove it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



None of us are righteous,therefore we are born wicked.Some people think they are wise,only to be shown foolish.Look up the name Josephus and then there are greek writers on the web,for proof.I'm sure you can find them.If the tomb that is universally excepted as THE LORDS(which is empty).Was not where they laid THE LORD,then the unbelievers would have their proof,now wouldn't they?There is no 2,000 year conspiracy theory.There are some,who would not believe if they actually saw HIM themselves.That was proven 2,000 years ago.


----------



## pnome (Jul 27, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> None of us are righteous,therefore we are born wicked.Some people think they are wise,only to be shown foolish.Look up the name Josephus and then there are greek writers on the web,for proof.I'm sure you can find them.If the tomb that is universally excepted as THE LORDS(which is empty).Was not where they laid THE LORD,then the unbelievers would have their proof,now wouldn't they?There is no 2,000 year conspiracy theory.There are some,who would not believe if they actually saw HIM themselves.That was proven 2,000 years ago.



SO, using your reasoning, we can then determine that Osiris is real because Isis found all 14 parts of his body that Set had scattered across Egypt and resurrected him. 

Clearly that must be true, since it's also been mentioned by some ancient Greek writers as well right?  It's proven!

Osiris' sarcophagus is EMPTY!


----------



## christianhunter (Jul 27, 2009)

pnome said:


> SO, using your reasoning, we can then determine that Osiris is real because Isis found all 14 parts of his body that Set had scattered across Egypt and resurrected him.
> 
> Clearly that must be true, since it's also been mentioned by some ancient Greek writers as well right?  It's proven!
> 
> Osiris' sarcophagus is EMPTY!




Given your reasoning,I guess we'll have to go with Humpty-Dumpty too.
Come on pnome,you can do better than "Greek Mythology."I couldn't resist,"Isis"also gave "Shazam" his powers too.I used to watch him fight crime,every Saturday morning when I was young.


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## gtparts (Jul 27, 2009)

pnome said:


> Answer this first:  Is there anything that I could show you that would prove to you God does not exist?   Is there anything that, if it were true, would falsify your theory?




Not me. 

You assume that the existence of God is theoretical in nature and unproven by science. This is true for you because you rely on science, which as yet can not plumb or fathom the spiritual (nor will it ever). It is a completely ineffectual tool to prove or disprove the existence or nature of God. You waste time and energy in the fruitless litany of "prove it".  

More importantly, those who believe in God (and by "believe", I mean "know" rather than "suspect"), do so because they have personally encountered Him and have given witness to what He has done in their life and in the lives of others. The repeated reference to other religious beliefs is ludicrous. In truth, you have never met the Buddah, or Mohamed, et al, nor do you have any belief in Ra or Osiris, Thor or Baal, Ganesh or Hera. Neither do I! 

But, I give testimony, here and now, that in faith, I am on a spiritual face-to-face basis with my lord and savior, Jesus Christ. Not because I could arrange that encounter, but because He sought me. He has changed my life. I am no longer the person I was before He made Himself manifest to me.

You need to meet and know Him too. All I can do is point you in His direction, however poorly I may do so. Those who deny the power of faith to accomplish this thing in their life, do so because in the very heart of their being, they do not want to be held accountable by a holy, righteous God for the way they have lived.

Falsify my theory? 

I just can't deny the truth of what I have experienced personally!


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## pnome (Jul 27, 2009)

gtparts said:


> You waste time and energy



Aye. That I do.


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## Country_Girl (Jul 28, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> Given your reasoning, I guess we'll have to go with Humpty-Dumpty too.
> Come on pnome, you can do better than "Greek Mythology."I couldn't resist,"Isis"also gave "Shazam" his powers too. I used to watch him fight crime,every Saturday morning when I was young.



 Sorry, can't resist! 

 Oh, WOW!  Trip down Memory Lane!  I used to LOVE "Shazam"!!!   

Looks like we've both tripped up and shown our age now!   LOL


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## Country_Girl (Jul 28, 2009)

gtparts said:


> Not me.
> 
> You assume that the existence of God is theoretical in nature and unproven by science. This is true for you because you rely on science, which as yet can not plumb or fathom the spiritual (nor will it ever). It is a completely ineffectual tool to prove or disprove the existence or nature of God. You waste time and energy in the fruitless litany of "prove it".
> 
> ...


 Very nice..... Couldn't have said it better myself.


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## christianhunter (Jul 28, 2009)

Country_Girl said:


> Sorry, can't resist!
> 
> Oh, WOW!  Trip down Memory Lane!  I used to LOVE "Shazam"!!!
> 
> Looks like we've both tripped up and shown our age now!   LOL



I didn't think about that.
No wonder I got no response,no one wants to jump on the bus with us.


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## Country_Girl (Jul 29, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> I didn't think about that.
> No wonder I got no response,no one wants to jump on the bus with us.



Well.... it "is" a tough bus to ride!   LOL

They're all probably wondering "What the heck is a Shazam?" and doing a Google search on the word right now!  LOL


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## gtparts (Jul 29, 2009)

Some on here are several buses ahead of you.


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## Jeffriesw (Jul 29, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> I didn't think about that.
> No wonder I got no response,no one wants to jump on the bus with us.




Cause you rode the short bus





J/K Brother


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## BeenHuntn (Jul 30, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> I didn't want to high jack another thread, so I started this one.Why does THE NAME Of JESUS,and GOD(One and The Same)offend atheists,and unbelievers?
> Lets see,I'm totally at odds with homosexuality,atheism,animal rights activists,cults,satanism,just to name a few.Yet I don't rally against,or invade their inner circle.I avoid them completely!
> GOD with HIS Swift HAND Of Judgment,will deal with everything unrighteous on HIS appointed day.I believe that the reason,"In GOD We Trust"on our money,and The Ten Commandments displayed anywhere in the public.Is an offense,to anything wicked or unrighteous.What else could it be?
> I give my testimony of belief,to anyone that will hear it.If they don't want to hear it,we should move on.JESUS CHRIST IS LORD!




very simple, from a Biblical standpoint...  all people are sinners. Jesus is God who puts all sinners in their place and exposes their sin for what it is... sin.  Jesus basically tells ALL people, "hey you are an evil sinner, and you will not enter into My glory, unless you repent, be born again and follow Me..."...

so therefore, if a sinner loves their wicked ways, sins and this evil world... than Jesus will offend that sinner...

if a sinner, is humble, repents, hates his sin, turns away from their sins and believes on Him... than that sinner will not be offended but will actually be a considered a wise man...


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## mtnwoman (Jul 30, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Are you the only one that pays taxes ?
> and since 86% of Americans claim to believe in God and pay taxes, why are your taxes more important than theirs, doesn't the majority rule ?



Right on!!

Hey I'm against abortion and 50% of 1.3 million abortions per year are paid by social services, which MY taxes pay for.
Please let's don't get into the tax issue, unless we want to look at all sides.


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## mtnwoman (Jul 30, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> I didn't think about that.
> No wonder I got no response,no one wants to jump on the bus with us.



Hey I'm on dat bus...maybe even a bus or two ahead of most of you'ns.


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## mtnwoman (Jul 30, 2009)

pnome said:


> Answer this first:  Is there anything that I could show you that would prove to you God does not exist?   Is there anything that, if it were true, would falsify your theory?



No nothing you could show us and believe me plenty of men have tried. It's kinda like gravity, we can't see it we just know it's there, we see the effect of it and we know how it works, and we see it work, but I couldn't prove that it existed to someone who was dead set on disbelieving it if they need visual proof of gravity itself. Same with oxygen, same with someone living on an island that is surrounded by water and never seen anything else but water.


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## mtnwoman (Jul 30, 2009)

pnome said:


> Aye. That I do.



Cute avatar...that's adorable!


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## mtnwoman (Jul 30, 2009)

pnome said:


> SO, using your reasoning, we can then determine that Osiris is real because Isis found all 14 parts of his body that Set had scattered across Egypt and resurrected him.
> 
> Clearly that must be true, since it's also been mentioned by some ancient Greek writers as well right?  It's proven!
> 
> Osiris' sarcophagus is EMPTY!



So Isis is the stronger of the two? It takes a woman to pull a man back together after he has fallen to pieces, eh?


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## earl (Jul 30, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> So Isis is the stronger of the two? It takes a woman to pull a man back together after he has fallen to pieces, eh?





As long as she doesn't preach in a church.


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## christianhunter (Jul 30, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> So Isis is the stronger of the two? It takes a woman to pull a man back together after he has fallen to pieces, eh?


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## christianhunter (Jul 30, 2009)

Swamp Runner said:


> Cause you rode the short bus
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Country_Girl (Jul 30, 2009)

gtparts said:


> Some on here are several buses ahead of you.


  OK... I've been meaning to ask you, and am still rather afraid of what the answer is going to be but... what IS that a picture of in your avatar??  LOL



Swamp Runner said:


> Cause you rode the short bus
> 
> J/K Brother


  HA!  Good one!  Hey.  Wait.  That means I'd be riding the short bus, too!  LOL



mtnwoman said:


> Hey I'm on dat bus...maybe even a bus or two ahead of most of you'ns.


  Hmmm.... Looks like we need a bigger bus!  LOL



mtnwoman said:


> No nothing you could show us and believe me plenty of men have tried. It's kinda like gravity, we can't see it we just know it's there, we see the effect of it and we know how it works, and we see it work, but I couldn't prove that it existed to someone who was dead set on disbelieving it if they need visual proof of gravity itself. Same with oxygen, same with someone living on an island that is surrounded by water and never seen anything else but water.


  And wind!  Don't forget wind...


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## thedeacon (Jul 30, 2009)

I would like to take this oppertunity to thank all the non-believers that are living in sin and in danger of loosing their souls. The only thing you have done on this religious forum is to make us Christians much stronger in our faith.

Because of you we have studied and grown in wisdom trying to convince an ignorant world that there is a God. 

again I say, thank you very much for letting us do our Christian duty.


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## christianhunter (Jul 30, 2009)

thedeacon said:


> I would like to take this oppertunity to thank all the non-believers that are living in sin and in danger of loosing their souls. The only thing you have done on this religious forum is to make us Christians much stronger in our faith.
> 
> Because of you we have studied and grown in wisdom trying to convince an ignorant world that there is a God.
> 
> again I say, thank you very much for letting us do our Christian duty.



On a serious note I 2nd that.I have searched deeper,and studied a little more.Plus I have been convicted to be less defensive,as well as less offensive.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jul 30, 2009)

gtparts said:


> Not me.
> 
> You assume that the existence of God is theoretical in nature and unproven by science. This is true for you because you rely on science, which as yet can not plumb or fathom the spiritual (nor will it ever). It is a completely ineffectual tool to prove or disprove the existence or nature of God. You waste time and energy in the fruitless litany of "prove it".
> 
> ...



Funny you rake him over the coals for considering scientific proof of God.  But christian hunter doing the same thing gets a 100% free pass.  Is there any reason you didn't chastise him for challenging anyone to prove God doesn't exist?


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## christianhunter (Jul 30, 2009)

"Blessed is he who is persecuted,for my NAMES SAKE".I'll take a blessing anytime I can get one,SMDH.


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## earl (Jul 30, 2009)

Ya'll are most welcome. Some have solidified my opinions ,some have changed my opinions, some of you have me puzzled ,and some of you have amused me . And at the end of the day I mostly enjoy ya'll.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jul 31, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> "Blessed is he who is persecuted,for my NAMES SAKE".I'll take a blessing anytime I can get one,SMDH.



Don't get too excited.


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## christianhunter (Jul 31, 2009)

earl said:


> Ya'll are most welcome. Some have solidified my opinions ,some have changed my opinions, some of you have me puzzled ,and some of you have amused me . And at the end of the day I mostly enjoy ya'll.




earl you ain't right buddy,you just ain't right.


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## gtparts (Jul 31, 2009)

pnome said:


> Answer this first:  Is there anything that I could show you that would prove to you God does not exist?   Is there anything that, if it were true, would falsify your theory?





gtparts said:


> Not me.
> 
> You assume that the existence of God is theoretical in nature and unproven by science. This is true for you because you rely on science, which as yet can not plumb or fathom the spiritual (nor will it ever). It is a completely ineffectual tool to prove or disprove the existence or nature of God. You waste time and energy in the fruitless litany of "prove it".
> 
> ...





Six million dollar ham said:


> Funny you rake him over the coals for considering scientific proof of God.  But christian hunter doing the same thing gets a 100% free pass.  Is there any reason you didn't chastise him for challenging anyone to prove God doesn't exist?



"...rake him over the coals..."  ??? 


I guess, since exaggeration is used in the Bible, I'll give you a pass, smdh. 



CH, while I am sure you see the foolishness in asking for scientific proof of the nonexistence of God, you also understand the opposite is equally unprovable (at least, by the scientific method).

There is no repeatable,scientific experiment anyone can perform  that will ever produce sufficient data to prove the existence or nonexistence of God. The data will always be less than required to conclude either way. God cannot be confined to a test tube. God don't play that. He wants his created beings to trust Him, not the results of some experiment.

I'm feeling particularly gracious because I have received so much grace, myself.

Today I am giving each of you Woody-ites a pass. Use it well!

Passes for everybody!!!


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## Six million dollar ham (Jul 31, 2009)

gtparts said:


> "...rake him over the coals..."  ???
> 
> 
> I guess, since exaggeration is used in the Bible, I'll give you a pass, smdh.
> ...



Great.  Jesus is still a big hoax though.


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## christianhunter (Jul 31, 2009)

GT,I think ya pert neer rendered him speechless on that one.


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## ddd-shooter (Jul 31, 2009)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Great.  Jesus is still a big hoax though.



Ok, my turn...PROVE IT!

hehe thats fun!


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## Country_Girl (Aug 3, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> Ok, my turn...PROVE IT!
> 
> hehe thats fun!



   Is it really???  I'm gonna have to give that a try sometime!  LOL


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## ted_BSR (Aug 19, 2009)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Great.  Jesus is still a big hoax though.



Yet, His name continues to strike fear into the hearts of unbelievers.  Why denounce Him if it matters not?  Continue to seek SIX.


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## Diogenes (Aug 19, 2009)

Gtparts states: “But, I give testimony, here and now, that in faith, I am on a spiritual face-to-face basis with my lord and savior, Jesus Christ. Not because I could arrange that encounter, but because He sought me. He has changed my life. I am no longer the person I was before He made Himself manifest to me.”

Um?  Not to interrupt, but I’ve always been curious – since you’ve been face-to-face, what does this fella look like?  I’d hate to pass Him in the aisle at Walmart and not recognize Him . . . and if He sought you, then what did you use as bait?  The conventional wisdom around here is that one needs to seek Him, isn’t it?  How did you get singled out for such an honor of having Him seek You?

Just asking . . .  
(You aren't secretly a Virgin female or anything, are you?  Fella has a history of that sort of thing . . . )


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## heavymetalhunter (Aug 19, 2009)

gtparts said:


> I guess, since exaggeration is used in the Bible, I'll give you a pass, smdh.



alot of exaggeration,and a whole boat load of imagination...


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## christianhunter (Aug 19, 2009)

heavymetalhunter said:


> alot of exaggeration,and a whole boat load of imagination...



You don't see me bashing the "Tooth Fairy" or "Santa Claus" or even Mohammed or Buddah.There is Something about HIS NAME that pricks your soul.


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## earl (Aug 20, 2009)

ted_BSR said:


> Yet, His name continues to strike fear into the hearts of unbelievers.  Why denounce Him if it matters not?  Continue to seek SIX.



You do know that the boogyman doesn't exist , don't you . Does he continue to strike fear in your heart ? Why denounce him either ?  At some point aren't you supposed to stop seeking and sat I believe because I have faith ? 

 The more I know the stranger it gets.


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## BeenHuntn (Aug 20, 2009)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Great.  Jesus is still a big hoax though.



in your mind, Jesus is a hoax because you are ignorant of the truth.   unless you are an electrician you are ignorant of electricty... does that mean that electricity is a hoax?

unless you are a weatherman, you are ignorant of the weather... does that mean weather is a hoax?

unless you are a brain surgeon, you are ignorant of the anatomy of the brain... does that mean the brain is a hoax?

i am guessing that you are not an astronaut... does that mean the moon is a hoax?

i am sure you cannot see oxygen... does that mean breathing is a hoax?

just because God has not taken the scales off of your eyes, does not mean that Jesus is a hoax... there are millions of people out there (including me) who are washed in the blood of Jesus and filled with the Holy Spirit, just as God said His children would be... they have eyes to see and ears to hear...

just because you dont have eyes to see, does not mean that Jesus is a hoax. it means that you need to get down on your knees, repent, and cry out to God that you are lost and need to be saved by the blood of Jesus... 

then God will take the scales off of your eyes and you will understand the Scriptures and why Jesus is the Truth the life and the way...


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## Diogenes (Aug 20, 2009)

Electricity, weather, the brain, the moon, and respiration are demonstrable truths, easily demonstrated through scientific means simple enough that a First Grader can understand.   

Although we all enjoy passionate rhetoric as much as we enjoy any other bit of fictional Soap Opera or Street Theater, when you follow the logic of the easily provable but difficult to discern with a statement such as this one – “just because you dont have eyes to see, does not mean that Jesus is a hoax. it means that you need to get down on your knees, repent, and cry out to God that you are lost and need to be saved by the blood of Jesus... “ – well, you must be kidding . . . Shall we reverse this bit of illogic, if only to demonstrate how truly absurd it sounds to a rational mind?

Sure.  Why not?  Just because you are a nonbeliever, and thus have no ‘eyes to see’ which this believing presumably provides, does not mean that Ghosts, UFOs, Sasquatch, the Bermuda Triangle, Area 51, the Piltdown Man, the Jersey Devil, the Tri-lateral Commission, and the second shooter on the grassy knoll don’t actually, truly, genuinely exist . . .  You need only fall to your knees, repent of your doubts, and cry out to Sasquatch that you are lost and need him to bleed on you so that you can finally be saved . . . 

Your argument, essentially, is solely that believing in something makes it true, and that, as intelligent, logical arguments go, is utter hogwash.


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## BeenHuntn (Aug 20, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> Electricity, weather, the brain, the moon, and respiration are demonstrable truths, easily demonstrated through scientific means simple enough that a First Grader can understand.
> 
> Although we all enjoy passionate rhetoric as much as we enjoy any other bit of fictional Soap Opera or Street Theater, when you follow the logic of the easily provable but difficult to discern with a statement such as this one – “just because you dont have eyes to see, does not mean that Jesus is a hoax. it means that you need to get down on your knees, repent, and cry out to God that you are lost and need to be saved by the blood of Jesus... “ – well, you must be kidding . . . Shall we reverse this bit of illogic, if only to demonstrate how truly absurd it sounds to a rational mind?
> 
> ...



if believing is "hogwash"... then what do you call the millions of Jesus lovers who have the Holy Spirit residing in them and they KNOW that it is the Holy Spirit.

their lives have changed.

they have been regenerated.

they sin less.

they pray more.

they see miracles.

they are healed of diseases.

and on and on...

are all of these things untrue to the millions of Christ lovers in this world and is it all just hogwash?  The Bible has been proven to be true and since it is true, we must believe it or perish..

my advice to the ham is the same advice i give you. repent and believe while you can...  the day of salvation is today and not tomorrow because you may not be here tomorrow.


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## Diogenes (Aug 20, 2009)

“my advice to the ham is the same advice i give you. repent and believe while you can... the day of salvation is today and not tomorrow because you may not be here tomorrow.”

Sir, with all due respect, my advice to you is that nearly every community in this great nation contains a FREE LIBRARY.   Knowing is a good thing, and I highly recommend it.


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## BeenHuntn (Aug 20, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> “my advice to the ham is the same advice i give you. repent and believe while you can... the day of salvation is today and not tomorrow because you may not be here tomorrow.”
> 
> Sir, with all due respect, my advice to you is that nearly every community in this great nation contains a FREE LIBRARY.   Knowing is a good thing, and I highly recommend it.



sir, i will likely spend the rest of my years studing the Bible... until i get every single verse correctly, i will have no need to lok for


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## Diogenes (Aug 20, 2009)

Well, if that works for you, and is all you wish out of life, then I can hardly be against that . . . Enjoy yourself.  If you wish to stay on your knees, repenting, and crying out to God then go for it.  That is your own look-out.  For yourself.  Not for me -- okay?  Don't gp around telling folks that they need to do what you do, else you risk the sin of Pride, among many others, according to your system of thought . . .


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## BeenHuntn (Aug 21, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> Well, if that works for you, and is all you wish out of life, then I can hardly be against that . . . Enjoy yourself.  If you wish to stay on your knees, repenting, and crying out to God then go for it.  That is your own look-out.  For yourself.  Not for me -- okay?  Don't gp around telling folks that they need to do what you do, else you risk the sin of Pride, among many others, according to your system of thought . . .



it is for me because i have been hand selected by God to be His child. i dont go around telling people about Christ and how to find Christ because i enjoy it or its my own belief... i am commanded to do it by God Himself. i am doing the person a favor too. helping someone find the Lord is a good thing, not a bad thing. they may not like it and i mau not even like it all the time, but it is a commandment...  i do it to please the Lord, not men or myself...


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## heavymetalhunter (Aug 24, 2009)

BeenHuntn said:


> it is for me because i have been hand selected by God to be His child.


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## BeenHuntn (Aug 24, 2009)

heavymetalhunter said:


>



"The Conjuring" - by MegaDeth

_Welcome to out sanguinary sect of worship.
Feel at home in our black conventicle,
As we anathematise
All of those who oppose us.
Dont summon the devil,
Dont call the priests,
If you need the strength
The conjuring. obey!!!

Behold the flames rise
From the compass cardinal points.
Burn the sacred oil,
And, with the ashes youll annoint.

Arrange the symbols,
Of the wizard, and, magician.
Light the candles,
Place the parchment paper in position.
Between its leaves place
The lash from a black cats eye,
A straw of a broom,
Fold, and, burn, and, centralise.

Dont summon the devil,
Dont call the priests,
If you need the strength,
The conjuring.

I am the devils advocate,
A salesman, if you will
You know my name. [you know my name]

I met your father years ago,
Gave him what hed please.
He called my name, youll do the same.

Im claiming what is mine by right,
Its time to close the deal.
Youre bought and sold, bought and sold.

Come join me in my infernal depths,
Mephistos hall of fame.
Ive got your soul, Ive got your soul.
The conjuring. obey!!!_

HMH, as a past fellow HMH, you can go to Heaven... you dont have to follow lyrics like these... as i used to do myself...

seeking God and loving Him is right in front of your face... 
seek Him hard and salvation will be yours... He makes this promise to you as He did for me...


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## heavymetalhunter (Aug 24, 2009)

BeenHuntn said:


> "The Conjuring" - by MegaDeth
> 
> _Welcome to out sanguinary sect of worship.
> Feel at home in our black conventicle,
> ...


...such great music... megadeth wrote some good music. sweating bullets or symphony of destruction comes to mind.......


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## BeenHuntn (Aug 24, 2009)

heavymetalhunter said:


> ...such great music... megadeth wrote some good music. sweating bullets or symphony of destruction comes to mind.......



imo, their best music was "peace sells, but who's buying"...
and "mechanix"...  i could listen to that over and over and over... you have to admit... Metallica stole "mechanix" and turned into "the four horsemen"...

dave mustain rox and hetfield sux...

now i listen to hymns, psalms and spiritual songs... and i wouldnt trade that music for anything whether, "peace sells", "conjuring", "One", "the four horsemen" or any heavy metal music out there...

all of that music truly rocks the flesh... hymns, psalms and spiritual songs rocks the spirit...


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## earl (Aug 24, 2009)

BH ,when you were a metalhead ,did you by chance experiment with drugs ?


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## BeenHuntn (Aug 24, 2009)

earl said:


> BH ,when you were a metalhead ,did you by chance experiment with drugs ?



yes, i did...  i smoked pot about 8 times. did acid once. alcohol often... but was delivered by Christ from all of those things... thats why as long as I have a breathe in my lungs.... i will praise God and live my life for Him instead of for me...

if it wasnt for Him, i'd be dead and in the pit. He is my Savior and salvation and i deserve death if not for Him...


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