# Top doctrines in Christianity you consider false.



## hobbs27 (Dec 4, 2017)

If you could name up to three doctrines in Christianity that you find absolutely false,  what would they be and why do you find them to be false?  
 Thanks.


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## atlashunter (Dec 4, 2017)

Christianity is divided on nearly all doctrinal claims but the claim that the resurrection is a historical event has to be in my top three.

Is young earth creationism a Christian doctrine?


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## WaltL1 (Dec 4, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> If you could name up to three doctrines in Christianity that you find absolutely false,  what would they be and why do you find them to be false?
> Thanks.


First I want to specify that I find to be false AT THIS TIME, based on the lack of evidence (the Why part of your question) -
1. The existence of any god, in this case the Christian God.
2. That Jesus/Joshua/Yeshua was God (the Trinity thing) or the Son of God (in the non Trinity sense) 
see #1
3. Any story/action/event that would require (G)god like abilities to perform. To include the authors of the various books of the Bible/the creation of the Bible being directed/overseen by God. 
See #1 again.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 4, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> Christianity is divided on nearly all doctrinal claims but the claim that the resurrection is a historical event has to be in my top three.
> 
> Is young earth creationism a Christian doctrine?



I had to go back and check my wording. I wanted to make sure I didn't say " Christian doctrine", but doctrines within Christianity.


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## drippin' rock (Dec 4, 2017)

All of them. Why?  No evidence.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 4, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> Christianity is divided on nearly all doctrinal claims but the claim that the resurrection is a historical event has to be in my top three.



Funny. Bertrand Russell pointed to a future coming and resurrection as his proof Jesus lied. 



> Is young earth creationism a Christian doctrine?



 It's a doctrine in Christianity,  just as old earth creationism,  and covenant creation.


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## atlashunter (Dec 4, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Funny. Bertrand Russell pointed to a future coming and resurrection as his proof Jesus lied.
> 
> 
> 
> It's a doctrine in Christianity,  just as old earth creationism,  and covenant creation.



Then add young earth creationism to the list. And Noah's ark.


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## atlashunter (Dec 4, 2017)

And the idea of original sin and vicarious redemption through blood sacrifice.


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## drippin' rock (Dec 4, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> And the idea of original sin and vicarious redemption through blood sacrifice.



Like I said.....?


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## atlashunter (Dec 4, 2017)

drippin' rock said:


> Like I said.....?



Pretty much.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 4, 2017)

Let me try asking this way then... Most of you were probably raised Christian,  what doctrines made you start doubting?


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## drippin' rock (Dec 4, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Let me try asking this way then... Most of you were probably raised Christian,  what doctrines made you start doubting?



The doctrines aren't what made me first doubt. It was the realization that I didn't think like most of the folks around me.  I'm not a "worshippy" kind of guy. I don't feel the need to pray. I don't feel incomplete without belief.  I don't feel like I'm a dirty sinner in need of redemption.  Once that part of my personality solidified, it was very easy to pick doctrine apart.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 4, 2017)

What doctrines did you find easiest to pick apart?


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## NCHillbilly (Dec 4, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Let me try asking this way then... Most of you were probably raised Christian,  what doctrines made you start doubting?



I was raised by a Baptist preacher, and I was made to be in church Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, bible school, revivals, etc. 

The doctrines that made me question the whole thing the most were:

The idea that people are naturally evil, sinful, unworthy beings, even though we were supposedly created in the image of God, and had our nature, personality,  and instincts installed by God; who then blames us for acting just like he created us to act, then casts us into He11 by default for being ourselves unless we perform repentance ceremonies to redeem ourselves. Add in the whole convoluted plan that we were created in the image of God, then sinned, and then God sent his son to suffer and die as a sacrifice to absolve our sins that he built into us so that we don't have to roast for eternity. If that's the most logical plan that God can come up with, he lacks imagination and management skills. The whole Job story didn't help either. Indeed, this idea of God brings to mind the sadistic kid who pulls the wings off of flies to watch them spin around on the tabletop. And the idea that God sits around watching us all the time to see what we do or don't do so that he can punish us for it.

Totally unbelievable stories taken as literal fact, like Noah's Ark, order of creation that contradicts logic, such as plants being created before the Sun was, etc.

The idea that people were created to subdue the Earth and have dominion over it, and we are better than everything else on Earth. And the idea that the Bible is the pure word of God straight from his mouth, when it is evident that it isn't. And the idea that we can even understand a power like God, much less know exactly what he/she/it wants.


I am not an atheist, I think; as I believe in a higher power. But, I don't really think that it bears any resemblance to the Christian God, or any other organized religion. My idea of God after a half-century of study and observation is much more along the lines of the God of most Native American tribes and our own Celtic and hunter-gatherer ancestors- of God being a universal non-anthropomorphic energy or power or force that is present and reveals itself in all things of creation, the unknowable Great Mystery. Personally, I have always felt much closer to God out alone on a mountaintop, in the woods, or on a riverbank than I have stuffed into a manmade building full of judgmental people trying to impress each other with their piety.


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## atlashunter (Dec 4, 2017)

NCHillbilly said:


> I was raised by a Baptist preacher, and I was made to be in church Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, bible school, revivals, etc.
> 
> The doctrines that made me question the whole thing the most were:
> 
> ...



Similar experience and thought process. Raised by an Assembly of God preacher. Add to the above the ineffectiveness of prayer. Way too much that just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Logical contradictions put forward by christians depending on the topic. For instance a common response to the problem of evil is free will. God wants you to choose a relationship with him they say. But life begins at conception we are also told. And those who die before reaching the age of accountability ie the unborn, babies, toddlers, children too young to understand sin etc go to heaven. Which means when you consider the vast numbers of miscarriages and childhood mortality that was the norm throughout most of human history not just for christians but for all people heaven is mostly filled with those who never had an opportunity to exercise their free will.

Did we mention evolution and the problem that poses for the idea of humans being the only species with spirits or the idea of original sin when there was no original man?

All of this and much more the christian just shrugs and accepts as another mystery they can't reconcile. The moment you accept the possibility that christianity is fiction just like any other religion those mysteries are easily explained.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 4, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Let me try asking this way then... Most of you were probably raised Christian,  what doctrines made you start doubting?


For me it wasn't the doctrine in itself that made me START doubting.
It was my view of what is right and wrong contradicting some doctrines.
Which lead me down the road of examining myself first then examining doctrine and where it came from, how it became doctrine etc, etc.
That lead me to reject Christianity. Not "God" but Christianity.
My belief in God, was more or less collateral damage as once Christianity was rejected, "God" as described by Christianity, ceased to exist.

I'm open to the possibility of a god/higher power/something but it is going require something other than just a person/people/group etc. telling me what that god/higher power/something "is".


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## hobbs27 (Dec 4, 2017)

NCHillbilly said:


> I was raised by a Baptist preacher, and I was made to be in church Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, bible school, revivals, etc.
> 
> The doctrines that made me question the whole thing the most were:
> 
> ...




 you might enjoy this book,  it's not on Amazon  but they sent mine out before they cashed my check.  Here's a link to their site. 

http://beyondcreationscience.com/


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## hobbs27 (Dec 4, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> For me it wasn't the doctrine in itself that made me START doubting.
> It was my view of what is right and wrong contradicting some doctrines.
> Which lead me down the road of examining myself first then examining doctrine and where it came from, how it became doctrine etc, etc.
> That lead me to reject Christianity. Not "God" but Christianity.
> ...



I believe whole heatedly in the Christian God,  but I can see through scripture how man has made a mess of Christianity... Much of what is taught today  just isn't scriptural. 
He11
Church attendance 
Losing Salvation 
The end of the world
Etc... 
Most  of this, in my opinion was added to form the Roman Catholic Church, which was a merger of Christianity and Paganism.


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## drippin' rock (Dec 4, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> What doctrines did you find easiest to pick apart?



I'm not inclined to type an essay on my phone.

Just pick any doctrine you like and then scroll through earlier threads. I agree with bullet, ambush, Walt, NC, etc.  you pick. They are more willing to say the same thing over and over than I am.


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## NCHillbilly (Dec 4, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> I believe whole heatedly in the Christian God,  but I can see through scripture how man has made a mess of Christianity... Much of what is taught today  just isn't scriptural.
> He11
> Church attendance
> Losing Salvation
> ...



The Roman Catholic Church was created and existed for the sole purpose of controlling people, IMO. Throughout the Middle Ages, the Church held the same position in Europe that Islamic theocracy holds in the Middle East today.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 4, 2017)

drippin' rock said:


> I'm not inclined to type an essay on my phone.
> 
> Just pick any doctrine you like and then scroll through earlier threads. I agree with bullet, ambush, Walt, NC, etc.  you pick. They are more willing to say the same thing over and over than I am.





> They are more willing to say the same thing over and over than I am.



It can get somewhat monotonous but I find it a necessary
exercise as you get different responses/thoughts/opinions/understandings etc. from different people/Christians.


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## red neck richie (Dec 4, 2017)

NCHillbilly said:


> I was raised by a Baptist preacher, and I was made to be in church Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, bible school, revivals, etc.
> 
> The doctrines that made me question the whole thing the most were:
> 
> ...



I have always felt much closer to God out alone on a mountaintop, in the woods, or on a riverbank than I have stuffed into a manmade building full of judgmental people trying to impress each other with their piety. I totally agree with you on this. As do I. But those judgmental people need to be there just as much if not more than you and I. I disagree people are naturally evil. Some are some aren't but people are naturally sinful. I do think you and Atlas have some resentment as the way you were raised though. And with Atlas losing both his parents in the same year has some anger as well. Which is understandable as I couldn't imagine how I would feel.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 4, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> I believe whole heatedly in the Christian God,  but I can see through scripture how man has made a mess of Christianity... Much of what is taught today  just isn't scriptural.
> He11
> Church attendance
> Losing Salvation
> ...


While I understand and agree with your opinion, I don't think Roman Catholicism can be separated out and pointed at. All the denominations have the same foundation they just differ on some of the details.
If one rejects the foundation as entirely man made/man's opinion, the varying details (without proof) of the various denominations really don't matter a whole lot.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 4, 2017)

NCHillbilly said:


> The Roman Catholic Church was created and existed for the sole purpose of controlling people, IMO. Throughout the Middle Ages, the Church held the same position in Europe that Islamic theocracy holds in the Middle East today.



Yeah,  I agree


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## WaltL1 (Dec 4, 2017)

NCHillbilly said:


> The Roman Catholic Church was created and existed for the sole purpose of controlling people, IMO. Throughout the Middle Ages, the Church held the same position in Europe that Islamic theocracy holds in the Middle East today.


I see it slightly different.
I see it as more of a "power" thing.
With that power comes the dominance, riches, control etc.
Controlling the people is just a means to gaining that power.
Might be a difference without much of a distinction though.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 4, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> While I understand and agree with your opinion, I don't think Roman Catholicism can be separated out and pointed at. All the denominations have the same foundation they just differ on some of the details.
> If one rejects the foundation as entirely man made/man's opinion, the varying details (without proof) of the various denominations really don't matter a whole lot.



True,  but as denominations pull away,  they have taken some things with them.  It's been a long process.... The Hellenistic Alexandrian period was very influential in the church and cultural beliefs.


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## red neck richie (Dec 4, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> True,  but as denominations pull away,  they have taken some things with them.  It's been a long process.... The Hellenistic Alexandrian period was very influential in the church and cultural beliefs.



I don't follow denominations. IMO there are no denominations in Heaven. Sorry no Catholic section.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 4, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> True,  but as denominations pull away,  they have taken some things with them.  It's been a long process.... The Hellenistic Alexandrian period was very influential in the church and cultural beliefs.


Just a comment that is kind of off topic -
I know for a fact that my religious indoctrination still exists in the back seat of my mind because, being raised Catholic, my seemingly uncontrollable initial reaction whenever someone says something "negative" about Catholicism is "Hey now don't be saying something like that" 

It's weird but I think a statement of the psychological effect religious indoctrination has.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 4, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Just a comment that is kind of off topic -
> I know for a fact that my religious indoctrination still exists in the back seat of my mind because, being raised Catholic, my seemingly uncontrollable initial reaction whenever someone says something "negative" about Catholicism is "Hey now don't be saying something like that"
> 
> It's weird but I think a statement of the psychological effect religious indoctrination has.



That's interesting... I'm not trying to say they are evil or less Godly than any other denominations.  I just think they are the beginning of the problems in modern Christianity.


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## red neck richie (Dec 4, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Just a comment that is kind of off topic -
> I know for a fact that my religious indoctrination still exists in the back seat of my mind because, being raised Catholic, my seemingly uncontrollable initial reaction whenever someone says something "negative" about Catholicism is "Hey now don't be saying something like that"
> 
> It's weird but I think a statement of the psychological effect religious indoctrination has.



Walt, I am a free thinker I don't follow organized denominational religion. I think a lot of people are hung up on this. I just look to have a personal relationship with God through the teachings of Christ. As I have told you I didn't grow up in church. I wasn't indoctrinated. I lived life and found these things to be true in my spirit as well as my life experiences. I have witnessed and felt the presence of the Holy Spirit. I have witnessed healing. I have witnessed changed lives. I have witnessed  love and forgiveness in his name.  I have witnessed too many thing to be coincidence. And I like to play poker so I know the odds.


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## atlashunter (Dec 4, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> I have always felt much closer to God out alone on a mountaintop, in the woods, or on a riverbank than I have stuffed into a manmade building full of judgmental people trying to impress each other with their piety. I totally agree with you on this. As do I. But those judgmental people need to be there just as much if not more than you and I. I disagree people are naturally evil. Some are some aren't but people are naturally sinful. I do think you and Atlas have some resentment as the way you were raised though. And with Atlas losing both his parents in the same year has some anger as well. Which is understandable as I couldn't imagine how I would feel.



Don't try to psycho analyze me. 

Both of my parents are still alive fortunately. And you can't just chalk up someone rejecting religion to a bad experience as if that is the only reason someone would reject all the nonsense that has been pointed out in this thread. That may be a convenient way for you to dismiss their conclusions but it's not treating their position with the respect it deserves.

I fell off a ladder once. It was very unpleasant. That didn't lead me to the conclusion gravity doesn't exist. Nor did a bad religious experience lead me to the conclusion god doesn't exist.


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## red neck richie (Dec 4, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> Don't try to psycho analyze me.
> 
> Both of my parents are still alive fortunately. And you can't just chalk up someone rejecting religion to a bad experience as if that is the only reason someone would reject all the nonsense that has been pointed out in this thread. That may be a convenient way for you to dismiss their conclusions but it's not treating their position with the respect it deserves.
> 
> I fell off a ladder once. It was very unpleasant. That didn't lead me to the conclusion gravity doesn't exist. Nor did a bad religious experience lead me to the conclusion god doesn't exist.



That explains a lot you falling off a ladder. You must have bumped your head pretty hard. I still feel the resentment. BTW respect is earned.


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## atlashunter (Dec 4, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> That explains a lot you falling off a ladder. You must have bumped your head pretty hard. I still feel the resentment.



For a "free thinker" you sure put a lot of weight on feeling.


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## atlashunter (Dec 4, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> BTW respect is earned.



Indeed. I treat faith based beliefs with the respect it has earned.


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## red neck richie (Dec 4, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> For a "free thinker" you sure put a lot of weight on feeling.



Yup gut feeling and I am still sensing a lot of resentment. You call it a feeling I call it a sense. You should pay more attention to your senses. By the way I eat pork and don't think I could handle 40 virgins.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 4, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> That's interesting... I'm not trying to say they are evil or less Godly than any other denominations.  I just think they are the beginning of the problems in modern Christianity.


No explanation necessary.
I assure you, Ive had much worse thoughts about Catholicism than you have


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## WaltL1 (Dec 4, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> Walt, I am a free thinker I don't follow organized denominational religion. I think a lot of people are hung up on this. I just look to have a personal relationship with God through the teachings of Christ. As I have told you I didn't grow up in church. I wasn't indoctrinated. I lived life and found these things to be true in my spirit as well as my life experiences. I have witnessed and felt the presence of the Holy Spirit. I have witnessed healing. I have witnessed changed lives. I have witnessed  love and forgiveness in his name.  I have witnessed too many thing to be coincidence. And I like to play poker so I know the odds.


Lets see, how can I word this.....
I don't doubt for a second that you believe the things you have witnessed/felt can be attributed to God.
Nor do I think the only way a person can come to believe in God is because they were indoctrinated when young.
But I also don't think its a coincidence that you pick the Christian God as the one you believe is responsible for it.


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## red neck richie (Dec 4, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Lets see, how can I word this.....
> I don't doubt for a second that you believe the things you have witnessed/felt can be attributed to God.
> Nor do I think the only way a person can come to believe in God is because they were indoctrinated when young.
> But I also don't think its a coincidence that you pick the Christian God as the one you believe is responsible for it.


I don't agree but I respect your opinion. Atlas do you see how respect works?


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## Big7 (Dec 4, 2017)

*Air must be getting thin up there.*



NCHillbilly said:


> The Roman Catholic Church was created and existed for the sole purpose of controlling people, IMO. Throughout the Middle Ages, the Church held the same position in Europe that Islamic theocracy holds in the Middle East today.



Air must be getting thin up there. 

How Old Is Your Church?

If you are a Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex- monk of the Catholic Church, in the year 1517.

If you belong to the Church of England, your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the Pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.

If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded by John Knox in Scotland in the year 1560.

If you are a Protestant Episcopalian, your religion was an offshoot of the Church of England founded by Samuel Seabury in the American colonies in the 17th century.

If you are a Congregationalist, your religion was originated by Robert Brown in Holland in 1582.

If you are a Methodist, your religion was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.

If you are a Unitarian, Theophilus Lindley founded your church in London in 1774.

If you are a Mormon (Latter Day Saints), Joseph Smith started your religion in Palmyra, N.Y., in 1829.

_*If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1605.*_

If you are of the Dutch Reformed church, you recognize Michaelis Jones as founder, because he originated your religion in New York in 1628.

If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.

If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year in which your religion was born and to Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy as its founder.

If you belong to one of the religious organizations known as 'Church of the Nazarene," "Pentecostal Gospel." "Holiness Church," "Pilgrim Holiness Church," "Jehovah's Witnesses," your religion is one of the hundreds of new sects founded by men within the past fifty years.

*If you are Roman Catholic, you know that your religion was founded in the year 33 by Jesus Christ the Son of God, and it is still the same Church.*

If anyone can show my wrong, please do.
BUT you can't. 

I knew better than to bite in here.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 4, 2017)

I'm not sure the Catholic Church started in the year 33 nor any of the other denominations as well.
Perhaps since the Middle East was under Roman rule, that gave them the heads up on Christianity from a historical prospective.
I don't believe Jesus picked a denomination as he was offering salvation to everyone. 
That would more than likely make the original "non-denominational." Kinda like the no Jew, no Gentile thing based on grace and not works lest it's not grace.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 4, 2017)

Constantine formed the RCC well after 33 ad


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## Spotlite (Dec 4, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> Indeed. I treat faith based beliefs with the respect it has earned.



That one I would agree with you.


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## atlashunter (Dec 4, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> I don't agree but I respect your opinion. Atlas do you see how respect works?



I don't respect faith and have never made any pretense otherwise. Faith is not deserving of respect. But you already know that as a "free thinker". Also as a self proclaimed "free thinker" you should treat positions argued from a reason and evidence based perspective with the respect _such a position warrants._ I couldn't care less whether you accord me as an individual with respect or not. See how that works.


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## atlashunter (Dec 4, 2017)

Big7 said:


> *If you are Roman Catholic, you know that your religion was founded in the year 33 by Jesus Christ the Son of God, and it is still the same Church.*
> 
> If anyone can show my wrong, please do.
> BUT you can't.
> ...




Oh boy...


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## Spotlite (Dec 4, 2017)

Big7 said:


> If you belong to one of the religious organizations known as  "Pentecostal Gospel."your religion is one of the hundreds of new sects founded by men within the past fifty years.
> 
> 
> If anyone can show my wrong, please do.
> ...


 I don’t have a dog in this fight, but.....
The Pentecostals stake their existence from Acts 2, well over 50 years ago. Regardless of Wikipedia says and if you or I agree with it or not. Not sure about the rest of those groups, but they’ll set you straight on that one.


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## Big7 (Dec 4, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm not sure the Catholic Church started in the year 33 nor any of the other denominations as well.
> Perhaps since the Middle East was under Roman rule, that gave them the heads up on Christianity from a historical prospective.
> I don't believe Jesus picked a denomination as he was offering salvation to everyone.
> That would more than likely make the original "non-denominational." Kinda like the no Jew, no Gentile thing based on grace and not works lest it's not grace.



You might want to get sure.

Take a few and read this:
http://usccb.org/bible/matthew/16/

Then, find out where I'm wrong and get back to me.

NOT putting the hit on you BUT.. these are fact
and the only one's that dispute this are result of Schism(s).
Plain and simple.

Peace be with you!


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## red neck richie (Dec 4, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> I don't respect faith and have never made any pretense otherwise. Faith is not deserving of respect. But you already know that as a "free thinker". Also as a self proclaimed "free thinker" you should treat positions argued from a reason and evidence based perspective with the respect _such a position warrants._ I couldn't care less whether you accord me as an individual with respect or not. See how that works.



I wouldn't expect different from you.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 4, 2017)

Big7... I know you're too close minded,  but if you weren't,  you may be able to accept some truth of history. 

https://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Catholic-church.html


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## Big7 (Dec 4, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Big7... I know you're too close minded,  but if you weren't,  you may be able to accept some truth of history.
> 
> https://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Catholic-church.html



OK.. I see where it was "banned".

I fail to see your point though.

Link me to something legit, and I promise you I will read it and not dismiss out of hand, like I have had done to me on here.

I know I'm in the minority here in the "Bible Belt",
which often follows the "cotton belt".

But that don't change the fact that Jesus handed
the keys to St. Peter and there has been an unbroken
chain of Vicar of Christ since the  crucifixion of Jesus Christ and the teachings of the ECF's and early church.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 4, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Big7... I know you're too close minded,  but if you weren't,  you may be able to accept some truth of history.
> 
> https://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Catholic-church.html


Question for you -


> worship/adoration of Mary


Are you aware of any other denominations who elevate Mary to the same level that Catholicism does?
I mean other than being Jesus's Mom it seems like she more or less take's a back seat to the rest of the players after that point in the other denominations. Whereas in Catholicism she's waaaaay up there.

I literally cant think of a single discussion we've had in here specifically about her.


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## atlashunter (Dec 4, 2017)

This reminds me of the baptist years ago that explained the baptist church dates all the way back to John the Baptist.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 4, 2017)

At some point in Christianity's infancy Paul comes along and sends these letters to the various Churches. One is in Rome, some in Greece and other areas. Colossae? Laodicea? Philippi? Sounds Greek to me.
I'm not sure they were all Catholic. 

Even later at the Councils of Nicea, we were given "doctrines." Heah, maybe back to the OP. Catholic doctrines adopted by many of the other denominations. Denominations that protested and maybe even the ones that didn't.
So maybe initially there was no denominations then somehow with government power came the Catholic denomination, then later the protestants. Seeing as how most Protestants believe God was involved in the Councils of Nicea. God through the Catholic Church, chose what Protestants believe about the Trinity and what books are in their Bible. Maybe?


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## Spotlite (Dec 4, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Question for you -
> 
> Are you aware of any other denominations who elevate Mary to the same level that Catholicism does?
> I mean other than being Jesus's Mom it seems like she more or less take's a back seat to the rest of the players after that point in the other denominations. Whereas in Catholicism she's waaaaay up there.
> ...


I would think most have the utmost respect for her, but I think you’re right, I don’t know of any other denomination that elevates her to the point of praying to her.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 4, 2017)

It may be safe to say that there might have been some politics involved with doctrines in Christianity. We could look at the opposing beliefs of Arius and Constantine and thus the Council of Nicea concerning the Trinity belief. Constantine legalized and formalized the Christianity of the time in the Roman Empire.

I guess the age old question would be, was it politics or divine intervention on what choices the council made. If a council of men was needed, why would we need divine intervention?
If God wanted man to be free thinkers and use free will then, why would he intervene at the council?
In fact he would have never needed the council in the first place.


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## Spotlite (Dec 4, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> It may be safe to say that there might have been some politics involved with doctrines in Christianity. We could look at the opposing beliefs of Arius and Constantine and thus the Council of Nicea concerning the Trinity belief. Constantine legalized and formalized the Christianity of the time in the Roman Empire.
> 
> I guess the age old question would be, was it politics or divine intervention on what choices the council made. If a council of men was needed, why would we need divine intervention?
> If God wanted man to be free thinkers and use free will then, why would he intervene at the council?
> In fact he would have never needed the council in the first place.


I’m going with politics coupled with “I dont like that preacher”............


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 4, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> I would think most have the utmost respect for her, but I think you’re right, I don’t know of any other denomination that elevates her to the point of praying to her.


Yeah in Catholicism its basically -
1. God/Jesus
2. Mary




3. everybody else

Lets see f I can remember -
Hail Mary, mother of God
Blessed art though among women
and blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus
Holy Mary Mother of God
pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.

I could look it up to see if I got it right but I really don't think I need to.
Cant count how many times Ive recited it in the past


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 4, 2017)

Big7 said:


> You might want to get sure.
> 
> Take a few and read this:
> http://usccb.org/bible/matthew/16/
> ...



 It seems best to understand that Jesus was praising Peter for his accurate statement about Him, and was introducing His work of building the church on Himself.

The testimony of the Rock;

1 Corinthians 3:11
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:20
built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone.

1 Peter 2:4
As you come to Him, the living stone, rejected by men, but chosen and precious in God's sight,

Peter is the petros or testimony, Christ is the rock.


----------



## Big7 (Dec 4, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> I would think most have the utmost respect for her, but I think you’re right, I don’t know of any other denomination that elevates her to the point of praying to her.



Catholics DO NOT "PRAY" TO MARY! 

We "pray" that she will intercede on our behalf.


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 4, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> It may be safe to say that there might have been some politics involved with doctrines in Christianity. We could look at the opposing beliefs of Arius and Constantine and thus the Council of Nicea concerning the Trinity belief. Constantine legalized and formalized the Christianity of the time in the Roman Empire.
> 
> I guess the age old question would be, was it politics or divine intervention on what choices the council made. If a council of men was needed, why would we need divine intervention?
> If God wanted man to be free thinkers and use free will then, why would he intervene at the council?
> In fact he would have never needed the council in the first place.



Careful Art, you are trying to mix logic and Christianity.
That's kind of like mixing oil and water.
(friendly jab )


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 4, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Yeah in Catholicism its basically -
> 1. God/Jesus
> 2. Mary
> 
> ...



It's weird that many have trouble calling Mary the Mother of God but don't have a problem with her son being God.
If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. It doesn't in any way mean she is older than God the Father or that she has anything to do with her Son's divinity.


----------



## Big7 (Dec 4, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Constantine formed the RCC well after 33 ad



Might want to do a fact check on that one.

Hint: 

Caesar was not equal to Jesus.


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 4, 2017)

Big7 said:


> Catholics DO NOT "PRAY" TO MARY!
> 
> We "pray" that she will intercede on our behalf.



That might work with them but it wont work with me


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 4, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Careful Art, you are trying to mix logic and Christianity.
> That's kind of like mixing oil and water.
> (friendly jab )



I have the same thoughts on Adam. If God gave Adam freewill and already had the Word standing by, then he knew Adam would use his freewill and fail. The Word was with God before Adam. The plan was in place. Adam had to fail in order for the Word to be born a man and savior.

This freewill concept appears to have been our doom. I would think God would have foreseen this as a problem and just went with predestination. Thus he could send to the Son whom he pleased. Even that concept leaves a lot not explained but it's way better than the freewill concept.


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 4, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> It's weird that many have trouble calling Mary the Mother of God but don't have a problem with her son being God.
> If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. It doesn't in any way mean she is older than God the Father or that she has anything to do with her Son's divinity.


To be honest, I didn't even know that was an issue.
Although I guess thinking about it, like you said, it could be an issue depending on how you want to look at it.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 4, 2017)

Big7 said:


> Catholics DO NOT "PRAY" TO MARY!
> 
> We "pray" that she will intercede on our behalf.


 
That's very similar to Protestants praying to Jesus. We don't pray to Jesus, we pray for Jesus to intercede. We pray to God in the name of Jesus.


----------



## Big7 (Dec 4, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> That might work with them but it wont work with me



A fool is born everyday. 

"Them" is "us".

First and last.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 4, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> To be honest, I didn't even know that was an issue.
> Although I guess thinking about it, like you said, it could be an issue depending on how you want to look at it.



It's a pretty big issue with most Protestants. We have been taught, well many of us, that Mary was just some random virgin that God picked to be his surrogate.
More of that freewill doctrine vs predestination that would have Mary being more random and thus not worthy of much mention.
When you think about it though, even if Mary is just the Mother of the human nature of God, you'd think she deserves more reverence. I can see where the Catholics come from on this belief.


----------



## Spotlite (Dec 5, 2017)

Big7 said:


> Catholics DO NOT "PRAY" TO MARY!
> 
> We "pray" that she will intercede on our behalf.



Out of curiosity.......how are you getting the intercession request to Mary?


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 5, 2017)

Big7 said:


> A fool is born everyday.
> 
> "Them" is "us".
> 
> First and last.


Uhhhhh.... yeah ok.


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 5, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> Out of curiosity.......how are you getting the intercession request to Mary?


We got down on our knees, assumed the payer position with hands together, closed our eyes, invoked her name.......
but you know, we were just having a conversation not actually praying


----------



## Spotlite (Dec 5, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> We got down on our knees, assumed the payer position with hands together, closed our eyes, invoked her name.......
> but you know, we were just having a conversation not actually praying



Lol


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 5, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> It's a pretty big issue with most Protestants. We have been taught, well many of us, that Mary was just some random virgin that God picked to be his surrogate.
> More of that freewill doctrine vs predestination that would have Mary being more random and thus not worthy of much mention.
> When you think about it though, even if Mary is just the Mother of the human nature of God, you'd think she deserves more reverence. I can see where the Catholics come from on this belief.


I'm kind of surprised Protestant mom's went along with that concept 
Where I grew up it seems every other girl child was named Mary in honor of Mary the Mother of God.
Even my grandmothers name was Mary for that reason.

I learned something new tonight. Glad you jumped in on the subject!


----------



## Big7 (Dec 5, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> Out of curiosity.......how are you getting the intercession request to Mary?



Holy Trinity. You know that little part:
Father, Son and Holy Spirit. 
And no. No such thing as a "ghost". 

The idiot, I will not address.

He's clueless and not worthy of a response.


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 5, 2017)

Big7 said:


> Holy Trinity. You know that little part:
> Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
> And no. No such thing as a "ghost".
> 
> ...


So out of curiosity -
Who is it you are referring to? A participant here?
"A fool Is born"
"The idiot"
"clueless"
"Not worthy of a response"?


----------



## hobbs27 (Dec 5, 2017)

Infant baptism 
Prayers to Mary
Eternal consious torments 
Tithing weekly

 Are just a few non scriptural doctrines that started in the early RCC in its beginning in the fourth century,  not 33ad.


----------



## Israel (Dec 5, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Yeah in Catholicism its basically -
> 1. God/Jesus
> 2. Mary
> 
> ...


That's very close.
The first few lines are almost verbatim of the scriptures.


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 5, 2017)

Israel said:


> That's very close.
> The first few lines are almost verbatim of the scriptures.


Uh oh....
If I got even one word wrong Father Gaye and Father Kilbride would be so disappointed in me 
(I cant help but chuckle now at their names)

Sorry Fathers, I'm gettin' old and the memory is going!


----------



## atlashunter (Dec 5, 2017)

Big7 said:


> Catholics DO NOT "PRAY" TO MARY!
> 
> We "pray" that she will intercede on our behalf.



Isn't there a scripture in there that no man comes to the father but through me? Seems like he would be the one you need to intercede on your behalf? Does mom have more pull with Jesus? You pray to her to intercede on your behalf and then she goes and has a talk with Jesus about it? Is that how it works?


----------



## atlashunter (Dec 5, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> I have the same thoughts on Adam. If God gave Adam freewill and already had the Word standing by, then he knew Adam would use his freewill and fail. The Word was with God before Adam. The plan was in place. Adam had to fail in order for the Word to be born a man and savior.
> 
> This freewill concept appears to have been our doom. I would think God would have foreseen this as a problem and just went with predestination. Thus he could send to the Son whom he pleased. Even that concept leaves a lot not explained but it's way better than the freewill concept.



There are all sorts of problems with free will, especially as an explanation for evil.


----------



## atlashunter (Dec 5, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Infant baptism
> Prayers to Mary
> Eternal consious torments
> Tithing weekly
> ...



When did the idea of papal infallibility come along? Or confessing your sins to a priest? Or taking indulgences?


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 5, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> When did the idea of papal infallibility come along? Or confessing your sins to a priest? Or taking indulgences?


Man I can still remember sweating bullets on the walk to the "hot seat" as we called it


----------



## atlashunter (Dec 5, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Man I can still remember sweating bullets on the walk to the "hot seat" as we called it



I've been in a catholic service exactly two times. The first was in high school for a funeral. People really had the routine down. I didn't know what to think. Second time was with a catholic girlfriend for Easter. They went around flicking water on everyone. Seemed very foreign to me. But I also figured if they went to the Pentecostal churches I grew up in that would seem just as foreign to them. At least one group has gone way out in left field. Not what one should expect if they are in communication with the same deity.


----------



## hobbs27 (Dec 5, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> When did the idea of papal infallibility come along? Or confessing your sins to a priest? Or taking indulgences?



That's a few more... The RCC spread their form of Christianity quickly,  they even came down hard on other Christian churches to get inline with them. 
 Thank God we have the scriptures though.  We can see where man has made a mess of things.


----------



## hobbs27 (Dec 5, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Man I can still remember sweating bullets on the walk to the "hot seat" as we called it



A friend of mine grew up with Catholic missionaries as parents. 

He said confession was not something any young man should have to go through. 

He also told me of somewhere he lived for a little while had two statues. One of Jesus and one of Mary.  The statue of Mary had places worn on it from all the people laying their hands on her and praying... But the one of Jesus was in perfect condition.  ..Not that I would condone worshipping either statue,  but it shows an age old connection to worshipping as pagans did.


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 5, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> I've been in a catholic service exactly two times. The first was in high school for a funeral. People really had the routine down. I didn't know what to think. Second time was with a catholic girlfriend for Easter. They went around flicking water on everyone. Seemed very foreign to me. But I also figured if they went to the Pentecostal churches I grew up in that would seem just as foreign to them. At least one group has gone way out in left field. Not what one should expect if they are in communication with the same deity.





> They went around flicking water on everyone


Hey now!
That was Holy water my friend, blessed by God and all that


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 5, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> A friend of mine grew up with Catholic missionaries as parents.
> 
> He said confession was not something any young man should have to go through.
> 
> He also told me of somewhere he lived for a little while had two statues. One of Jesus and one of Mary.  The statue of Mary had places worn on it from all the people laying their hands on her and praying... But the one of Jesus was in perfect condition.  ..Not that I would condone worshipping either statue,  but it shows an age old connection to worshipping as pagans did.





> He said confession was not something any young man should have to go through.


Particularly when you had to confess not only sinful actions but impure thoughts as well.
As a young healthy male I never could figure out how to stifle those impure thoughts... hence the sweating of bullets on the walk to the hot seat 
And you DID NOT lie to the priest!


----------



## atlashunter (Dec 5, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Hey now!
> That was Holy water my friend, blessed by God and all that



Ok


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 5, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> Ok


Actually, for the sake of accuracy, it wasn't necessarily blessed by God. The priest(s) were "qualified" to bless it.
There were also little bowls of Holy water as you stepped into the church and you would dip your fingers in and then make the sign of the Cross and then take your seat in the pews.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Dec 5, 2017)

Big7 said:


> Air must be getting thin up there.
> 
> How Old Is Your Church?
> 
> ...



Well, Jesus founding it in 33 AD certainly explains the New Testament and the words of Jesus being full of talk about the Pope being God manifested on Earth and bishops and cardinals and nuns and the commandments about confessing your sins to the priest instead of God and the commandments to wear big tall hats and robes and not to eat meat on Fridays and all that. I had always wondered why the Bible was so chock-full of these types of things that were never taught in church when I was growing up.


----------



## Big7 (Dec 5, 2017)

NCHillbilly said:


> Well, Jesus founding it in 33 AD certainly explains the New Testament and the words of Jesus being full of talk about the Pope being God manifested on Earth and bishops and cardinals and nuns and the commandments about confessing your sins to the priest instead of God and the commandments to wear big tall hats and robes and not to eat meat on Fridays and all that. I had always wondered why the Bible was so chock-full of these types of things that were never taught in church when I was growing up.



The Bible is not for you to discern.

Jump out of that man made KJV for a second.

The 7 books that the reformation decided were
not convenient to their agenda has all the answers
you need.

The Catholic Church along with ECF's, etc........

WROTE the Bible.

Most all of the known original text are in The Vatican
Archives.. 

If (one) is OSAS,  Sola Scriptura, or "elect"
or blah, blah, and blah (one) simply ignores historical fact, ECF teaching.

If (one) can PROVE me wrong, please do.

The Catholic Church was where all the rest of the schisms
came from.

Until The Great Schism, it was the only "Christian"
church.

The "reformation" is what? 500 years old give or take?
MAN MADE.


----------



## atlashunter (Dec 5, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Actually, for the sake of accuracy, it wasn't necessarily blessed by God. The priest(s) were "qualified" to bless it.
> There were also little bowls of Holy water as you stepped into the church and you would dip your fingers in and then make the sign of the Cross and then take your seat in the pews.



Oh yeah I remember them doing that now that you mention it. I just kept my trap shut and observed. Was definitely a different experience from the churches I grew up in.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Dec 5, 2017)

Big7 said:


> The Bible is not for you to discern.
> 
> Jump out of that man made KJV for a second.
> 
> ...



You are making the incorrect assumption that I think any of the various versions of the Bible are the literal word of God instead of books written by people to control other people. So, who did Jesus appoint to be the Pope?


----------



## atlashunter (Dec 5, 2017)

So NC is not finding those things in his bible because he is reading the wrong bible? Which bible should he be reading? You criticize the KJV for being man made and then in the next breath say the Catholic Church wrote the Bible. Doesn't that make it man made as well?


----------



## NCHillbilly (Dec 5, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> So NC is not finding those things in his bible because he is reading the wrong bible? Which bible should he be reading? You criticize the KJV for being man made and then in the next breath say the Catholic Church wrote the Bible. Doesn't that make it man made as well?



That's just crazy talk.


----------



## ky55 (Dec 5, 2017)

Seems like I read somewhere that according to the doctrine of Judaism the followers of Jesus continued to practice the teachings of the Torah long after his death. 
In the meantime, Paul was inventing the Christian Church among the Gentiles and anybody else he could convince.

So Jesus was a Jew, lived and taught the Torah, and his disciples and followers continued to practice Judaism after he died.


----------



## atlashunter (Dec 5, 2017)

ky55 said:


> Seems like I read somewhere that according to the doctrine of Judaism the followers of Jesus continued to practice the teachings of the Torah long after his death.
> In the meantime, Paul was inventing the Christian Church among the Gentiles and anybody else he could convince.
> 
> So Jesus was a Jew, lived and taught the Torah, and his disciples and followers continued to practice Judaism after he died.



http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=909316

^Here.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 5, 2017)

Big7 said:


> The Bible is not for you to discern.
> 
> Jump out of that man made KJV for a second.
> 
> ...



Were all of those books in the Bible when one of those councils picked what books to keep? I'm trying to see what ideals, doctrines, etc. that were a part of Catholicism that the Protestants kept after the Reformation.
If the Bible had more books originally then a guess during the Reformation, the Protestants elected to drop some of those books.

You said "The Catholic Church along with ECF's, etc........
WROTE the Bible." 
Considering it is the word of God, what does that mean the Catholic Church wrote the Bible? You mean with divine intervention?


----------



## ky55 (Dec 5, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=909316
> 
> ^Here.



Yep, 
there’s one after that one “Did Paul Invent Christianity” that has a lot more detailed information.
Everything points to the continued solidarity of the Jews and keeping the Torah after Jesus’ death. 
Paul took over about 3 years later, even though he had never met Jesus. 
And he preached a doctrine contrary to the disciples who had spent 3 years following Jesus.


----------



## atlashunter (Dec 5, 2017)

I wonder if the whole eat my flesh and drink my blood thing also has some roots in paganism? I've heard more than one rabbi point this out and say the idea would be anathema for Jews.


----------



## Big7 (Dec 5, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Were all of those books in the Bible when one of those councils picked what books to keep? I'm trying to see what ideals, doctrines, etc. that were a part of Catholicism that the Protestants kept after the Reformation.
> If the Bible had more books originally then a guess during the Reformation, the Protestants elected to drop some of those books.
> 
> You said "The Catholic Church along with ECF's, etc........
> ...




Yes.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 5, 2017)

Big7 said:


> [/SIZE]
> 
> Yes.



Interesting, I guess that Luther fellow thought the initial divine intervention was wrong and that he had just received new intervention from God. 
This was probably similar to the mystery Paul had received new intervention from God to reveal. Maybe?
Going back to before Paul, there was this way Christian things were done as it pertained to Gentiles and then God reveals something hidden to Paul later. Then Paul reveals it.
Did Paul change anything that made the early Church more or less Catholic than it already was? KY55 suggests that it was more Jewish before Paul.

Then Paul rebukes Peter for not wanting to act like the mystery that was revealed to him. Weird seeing how some see Peter as the Rock and not Jesus that the Church was built on. Then it's also weird how wishy washy Paul was too.


----------



## atlashunter (Dec 5, 2017)

Always comes back to "my team was writing on gods behalf and yours wasn't". Begs the question, why would an infallible deity use fallible men to communicate a message for him that he knows they are going to screw up? Is this really what should be expected from an omnipotent omniscient being?


----------



## atlashunter (Dec 5, 2017)

All of these questions become easily answered if we just consider the possibility that religion is nothing more than psychological warfare. Just stories made up by some to control and take advantage of others. It worked for the Jewish priest class. It worked for Mohammed. Worked for Constantine. And it has certainly worked for the Catholic Church.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 5, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> Always comes back to "my team was writing on gods behalf and yours wasn't". Begs the question, why would an infallible deity use fallible men to communicate a message for him that he knows they are going to screw up? Is this really what should be expected from an omnipotent omniscient being?



And like we discussed earlier, why would he need a council of men. Why would something as important as salvation from eternal death be left up to man and freewill?

This council may have missed something that one must believe in or not in order to gain everlasting life. 
Yet if one believes God can call whom he wants, it's a better plan. He can even call individuals out of a country that isn't even a Christian nation.


----------



## Big7 (Dec 5, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> Isn't there a scripture in there that no man comes to the father but through me? Seems like he would be the one you need to intercede on your behalf? Does mom have more pull with Jesus? You pray to her to intercede on your behalf and then she goes and has a talk with Jesus about it? Is that how it works?



God, The Father, Christ, The Son and the Holy Spirit are
one and the same. (=)

Ok.. Let's say for a second, Mary does not exist.

Then roll on over to some of the other SF
threads and take a look at how many folks
want us to "pray" for a loved one in sickness
or death, after the fact or for their family's
ability to get through that loss or any other event.

By that logic, it is a waste of time.

One, at that time, asks us to "pray" for this, that and the other..

That's called "prayer for intercession". 

To whom does one think is closer to God/Jesus/ Trinity
than The Mother of Christ?

The answer is very simple if you think about it.

I'm waiting on someone that THINKS he/she
can simply make a declaration, I'm "saved" and I can read a book, The Bible, and magically "discern " said book
and know everything there is to know without oral tradition which was the make up of The Bible to start with.

Don't get in a tiz.. Because you simply can't
make that argument.


----------



## atlashunter (Dec 5, 2017)

Big7 said:


> God, The Father, Christ, The Son and the Holy Spirit are
> one and the same. (=)
> 
> Ok.. Let's say for a second, Mary does not exist.
> ...



No tiz here. Just trying to make sense of these claims. I'm not asking for truth, just coherency. 

So Jesus is effectively saying no man comes to the father but through the father. Because they are one and the same. What then is the point of saying it and where does the need for an intercessor come into play? If anything doesn't that indicate one must go directly to the big guy and cannot go through an intercessor? Why then the need to go through Mary or a priest? How do you square that with the scripture. Whether you say the scripture means one can only get to god through Jesus or one can only get to god directly because god and Jesus is the same, the point in either case is that no man comes to the father through any other means.

I do see your point about asking others to pray and it does seem an odd request. Prayer itself seems odd to me. As if some fate hangs in the balance and a deity is sitting there weighing the prayers and faith of the believers to decide if he will intervene or not. Asking the long since deceased mother of a deity to put in a good word for you just seems to compound the silliness. Out of curiosity, what is the scriptural basis Catholics use for this practice?


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 5, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> I wonder if the whole eat my flesh and drink my blood thing also has some roots in paganism? I've heard more than one rabbi point this out and say the idea would be anathema for Jews.


From the link hobbs provided.



> (2) Mithraism was a religion in the Roman Empire in the 1st through 5th centuries AD. It was very popular among the Romans, especially among Roman soldiers, and was possibly the religion of several Roman emperors. While Mithraism was never given “official” status in the Roman Empire, it was the de facto official religion until Constantine and succeeding Roman emperors replaced Mithraism with Christianity. One of the key features of Mithraism was a sacrificial meal, which involved eating the flesh and drinking the blood of a bull. Mithras, the god of Mithraism, was “present” in the flesh and blood of the bull, and when consumed, granted salvation to those who partook of the sacrificial meal (this is known as theophagy, the eating of one’s god). Mithraism also had seven “sacraments,” making the similarities between Mithraism and Roman Catholicism too many to ignore. Church leaders after Constantine found an easy substitute for the sacrificial meal of Mithraism in the concept of the Lord’s Supper/Christian communion. Even before Constantine, some early Christians had begun to attach mysticism to the Lord’s Supper, rejecting the biblical concept of a simple and worshipful remembrance of Christ’s death and shed blood. The Romanization of the Lord’s Supper made the transition to a sacrificial consumption of Jesus Christ, now known as the Catholic Mass/Eucharist, complete.


----------



## Spotlite (Dec 5, 2017)

Big7 said:


> God, The Father, Christ, The Son and the Holy Spirit are
> one and the same. (=)
> 
> Ok.. Let's say for a second, Mary does not exist.
> ...


I would agree that Mary is closer to Jesus than any other human being. I would also point to Romans 8: 26 & 27 for who the intercessor should be.


----------



## Big7 (Dec 5, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> From the link hobbs provided.



At the last supper, Christ declared:

This IS my body, this IS my blood.
Do this often, in remembrance of me.

He did not indicate "let's pretend" or "play like" it's me.

*IS*, is the operative here.

By the authority given St. Peter and his successors
when the keys to the kingdom, given to he and his 
successors, that was a done deal.

Consecrated bread, The Host and wine, The Blood,
are truly the body and blood of Christ.


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 5, 2017)

Big7 said:


> At the last supper, Christ declared:
> 
> This IS my body, this IS my blood.
> Do this often, in remembrance of me.
> ...


1. I made no claim as to the accuracy of the info in the link. It addressed what Atlas was wondering about.
Nothing more, nothing less.
2. Your assumption is because the Bible says that Jesus said that, that he actually did.
The paragraph gives you an alternative to that.
Do with it what you will.


----------



## Big7 (Dec 5, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> No tiz here. Just trying to make sense of these claims. I'm not asking for truth, just coherency.
> 
> So Jesus is effectively saying no man comes to the father but through the father. Because they are one and the same. What then is the point of saying it and where does the need for an intercessor come into play? If anything doesn't that indicate one must go directly to the big guy and cannot go through an intercessor? Why then the need to go through Mary or a priest? How do you square that with the scripture. Whether you say the scripture means one can only get to god through Jesus or one can only get to god directly because god and Jesus is the same, the point in either case is that no man comes to the father through any other means.
> 
> I do see your point about asking others to pray and it does seem an odd request. Prayer itself seems odd to me. As if some fate hangs in the balance and a deity is sitting there weighing the prayers and faith of the believers to decide if he will intervene or not. Asking the long since deceased mother of a deity to put in a good word for you just seems to compound the silliness. Out of curiosity, what is the scriptural basis Catholics use for this practice?



Not sure I completely understand your post.

Give me point A and I will try my best to give you point B.

Meantime, give this a thoughtful read.

https://www.scripturecatholic.com/saints-and-intercessory-prayer/


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## atlashunter (Dec 5, 2017)

Big7 said:


> Not sure I completely understand your post.
> 
> Give me point A and I will try my best to give you point B.
> 
> ...



I think my points were pretty clear. Not sure which part you aren't getting.


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## atlashunter (Dec 5, 2017)

Big7 said:


> At the last supper, Christ declared:
> 
> This IS my body, this IS my blood.
> Do this often, in remembrance of me.
> ...



We could put that one to the test with an upper endoscopy.


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## atlashunter (Dec 5, 2017)

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=1340

Apparently even Catholics aren't in agreement as to whether they are engaging in literal cannibalism or symbolic cannibalism.



> At that time, the bread and wine are changed into the Body and Blood of Christ, as the Church has always taught. Although they still look like bread and wine, they have, by divine power, actually changed into His Body and Blood. How can we know this? It requires faith.


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## bullethead (Dec 5, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> And like we discussed earlier, why would he need a council of men. Why would something as important as salvation from eternal death be left up to man and freewill?
> 
> This council may have missed something that one must believe in or not in order to gain everlasting life.
> Yet if one believes God can call whom he wants, it's a better plan. He can even call individuals out of a country that isn't even a Christian nation.


Never ceases to amaze how votes from Clergy,  ranging from Nicea to current Pope selection, are never unanimous despite them all claiming that God inspired them to vote the way they did.


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## ky55 (Dec 5, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Never ceases to amaze how votes from Clergy,  ranging from Nicea to current Pope selection, are never unanimous despite them all claiming that God inspired them to vote the way they did.




Seems unusual  that a majority vote works for a god-inspired issue, when a unanimous vote is required from a jury in a simple criminal trial.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 5, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Never ceases to amaze how votes from Clergy,  ranging from Nicea to current Pope selection, are never unanimous despite them all claiming that God inspired them to vote the way they did.



Especially since Constantine used his influence at the Council of Nicea to unite the division between Christians concerning the Godhead. Constantine wanted unity for political reasons. Arius thought God had divinity over Jesus. The pro-Trinity team went with Athanasius and thus won the election. It was Trinity for most from that point forward.
This council was more or less intervened for political reasons.

I can't say this was the Church that Jesus built or was how the early Church believed before this council convened. 

It's still kinda weird that the followers that protested still placed a lot of faith in the Church that they sought  reformation from. Maybe they should have looked at how Christians were worshiping from when Paul was spreading the gospel.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 5, 2017)

Concerning the Eucharist or Holy Communion, I don't see where it matters much if one thinks he is actually eating Jesus' body and drinking his blood or if it's symbolic in nature.

I personally view it as a remembrance from Paul's words to the Corinthians. 

We have to realize that the body and blood of Christ was human even though he was divine or God or his Father was God. So even if one was to eat his actual flesh and drink his actual blood, it doesn't contain his divine nature, only his human nature.

It's not a part of salvation like the example of consuming a God's body and blood in order to gain salvation. Paul explains it as a remembrance of what the body and blood of Jesus means. 
What actually happened to the body and blood of Christ on the cross and his resurrection.

John 6:53-54
So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Apologist James McCarthy  said something like;
Jesus was physically present with the disciples at the Last Supper. I'm pretty sure the disciples new the bread and wine wasn't Jesus. McCarthy rightly observes: “Surely they would not have thought that Jesus’ body was both at the table and on the table.”


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## bullethead (Dec 6, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Especially since Constantine used his influence at the Council of Nicea to unite the division between Christians concerning the Godhead. Constantine wanted unity for political reasons. Arius thought God had divinity over Jesus. The pro-Trinity team went with Athanasius and thus won the election. It was Trinity for most from that point forward.
> This council was more or less intervened for political reasons.
> 
> I can't say this was the Church that Jesus built or was how the early Church believed before this council convened.
> ...



It was more than a trinity or not decision. They had to vote on what god(s) were going to be the official one(s) to be worshipped. It wasn't about getting the details of the one, only and true god right....they had to vote on who they were to make  a god, then doctor him up to suit.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 13, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> What doctrines did you find easiest to pick apart?


The Holy Spirit being a co equal 3rd person of the God head.
The doctrine of he1l


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 13, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm not sure the Catholic Church started in the year 33 nor any of the other denominations as well.
> Perhaps since the Middle East was under Roman rule, that gave them the heads up on Christianity from a historical prospective.
> I don't believe Jesus picked a denomination as he was offering salvation to everyone.
> That would more than likely make the original "non-denominational." Kinda like the no Jew, no Gentile thing based on grace and not works lest it's not grace.


LOL I'm sure it was not started in the year 33. The rock was based on whom did Peter  say Jesus was. What did he say, You are the Christ, the son of the living God. If this were the Catholic church he would have said, "you are God, the 3rd person of the trinity"


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## TripleXBullies (Dec 19, 2017)

ky55 said:


> Seems unusual  that a majority vote works for a god-inspired issue, when a unanimous vote is required from a jury in a simple criminal trial.



Good comparison.


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