# Baptists?



## TripleXBullies (Jun 7, 2011)

I was Southern baptist for the first ~20 years of my life. With a couple of years where I went to a non-denominational church. I was because my parents were/are. My mom was because her parents were... Not really sure why my dad was. His father was Jewish from Germany and his mother was a native Bolivian... Once when we moved when I was younger, our neighbors asked us to visit their Georgia baptist church. I recall my parents really disliking it, but I don't know why. I had about 2 years in non-denominational. To me, it felt pretty much the same other than there were several pastors, not just one. Maybe most people dressed a little more casual, but not much. Neither were super dressy.

I've seen on this forum negative connotations to baptist. Nothing crazily outrageous or mean, just negative. I'm not sure, but I think I saw believers also making negative comments toward it. 

I'm not looking for bashing to start happening, but what's the deal? I didn't really think this was something I could easily google.


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## applejuice (Jun 7, 2011)

Baptist churches offend people because they tend to yell at you. Southern Baptist have this "god is angry" preaching , which is different from other sects.
I grew up in Southern Baptist churches and Ive seen speaking in tounges along with other craziness in church. Its an in your face preaching session and Baptist are a little more extreme with their beliefs than others. 

I chose to go with my father to catholic church sometimes, instead of my mom which is baptist. 2 totally different experiences. Its not my cup of tea, but there arent many empty seats in the mega-baptist church my mom goes to. 
You can't sleep in a baptist sermon, too much racket going on.


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## centerpin fan (Jun 7, 2011)

Southern Baptists are the biggest Protestant denomination in the country.  A Southern Baptist church is generally the biggest church in any town.  Being the biggest, they're often the first target of their opponents.

Also, certain high profile Baptists (Jerry Falwell, Franklin Graham, the Westboro Baptist Church) have delved into political/cultural issues that have made the Baptist name even more prominent.

For the record, I think Falwell and Graham have nothing in common with the WBC gang apart from the name "Baptist".


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 7, 2011)

I am a living example that I could sleep... and so is my grandma 

I've been to several catholic weddings and to one conformation... Definitely big differences... 




applejuice said:


> Baptist churches offend people because they tend to yell at you. Southern Baptist have this "god is angry" preaching , which is different from other sects.
> I grew up in Southern Baptist churches and Ive seen speaking in tounges along with other craziness in church. Its an in your face preaching session and Baptist are a little more extreme with their beliefs than others.
> 
> I chose to go with my father to catholic church sometimes, instead of my mom which is baptist. 2 totally different experiences. Its not my cup of tea, but there arent many empty seats in the mega-baptist church my mom goes to.
> You can't sleep in a baptist sermon, too much racket going on.


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## centerpin fan (Jun 7, 2011)

applejuice said:


> I grew up in Southern Baptist churches and Ive seen speaking in tounges along with other craziness in church.



Southern Baptists are not charismatic.  If you saw speaking in tongues in an SB church, that's very unusual.


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## centerpin fan (Jun 7, 2011)

applejuice said:


> Baptist churches offend people because they tend to yell at you. Southern Baptist have this "god is angry" preaching ,



Not all Baptists are like that.  Charles Stanley is one prominent example.  I even thought Falwell was pretty mild compared to some.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 7, 2011)

Maybe the ones I went to were less extreme. There was some yelling when the pastor was trying to make a point I guess. No angry talk or tongues though.. I don't think. As far as comparing to other sects of christianity, I don't have a lot to compare it to from my own experience.



applejuice said:


> Baptist churches offend people because they tend to yell at you. Southern Baptist have this "god is angry" preaching , which is different from other sects.
> I grew up in Southern Baptist churches and Ive seen speaking in tounges along with other craziness in church. Its an in your face preaching session and Baptist are a little more extreme with their beliefs than others.
> QUOTE]


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 7, 2011)

My parents were big on CS.. so that must have been their style.



centerpin fan said:


> Not all Baptists are like that.  Charles Stanley is one prominent example.  I even thought Falwell was pretty mild compared to some.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 7, 2011)

that's what I thought.. although my sister did outside of church... creepy..



centerpin fan said:


> Southern Baptists are not charismatic.  If you saw speaking in tongues in an SB church, that's very unusual.


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## centerpin fan (Jun 7, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> My parents were big on CS.. so that must have been their style.



His conversational style dominates the airwaves, and it's not just Baptists like Stanley and Jack Graham.  D. James Kennedy (Presbyterian) was the same as is Joel Osteen (Charismatic.)

There are some "fire and brimstone" guys still left.  Rod Parsley and John Hagee (both Charismatics) are good examples.


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## centerpin fan (Jun 7, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> that's what I thought.. although my sister did outside of church... creepy..



Yeah, it breaks out in certain SBC churches and can often lead to a church split.  If you Google "Southern Baptist Convention glossolalia" (or something similar), you can read more.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 7, 2011)

So what is CS? Hardcore, or not so much?



centerpin fan said:


> His conversational style dominates the airwaves, and it's not just Baptists like Stanley and Jack Graham.  D. James Kennedy (Presbyterian) was the same as is Joel Osteen (Charismatic.)
> 
> There are some "fire and brimstone" guys still left.  Rod Parsley and John Hagee (both Charismatics) are good examples.


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## centerpin fan (Jun 7, 2011)

I guess it depends on how you define "hardcore".  Stanley's beliefs are pretty traditional.  I don't think he'd waver on any of the core Baptist beliefs.  He was the president of the SBC, after all.  You don't achieve that rank by being on the fringes.  His style, however, is very mild and non-threatening.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 7, 2011)

Baptist churches vary so much. From one extreme to another. Their main "core doctrine" is what makes them baptist. Not how wild or dead they act.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 7, 2011)

And what is that???


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## JFS (Jun 7, 2011)

I think on average they are more fundamentalist than many other mainline protestant denominations.


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## stringmusic (Jun 7, 2011)

JFS said:


> I think on average they are more fundamentalist than many other mainline protestant denominations.



A decent post and you had to go and dumb it up with a smilie.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 7, 2011)

Describe what you mean by fundamentalist, please?


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## JFS (Jun 7, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> Describe what you mean by fundamentalist, please?



Maybe too colloquial, but I meant mostly with respect to beliefs the bible is literal and inerrant.   That may be the "official" doctrine of many denominations, but in practice it seems to me some of the others are more liberal and open to individual and modern interpretations.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 7, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> And what is that???


 I'm trying to recall how they differ say from lutherns or presby's. It has much to do with their founders. Unlike Methodists, who govern their body closely, training their teachers in "methodology", baptist will let just about anyone teach or preach. Most don't have a clue, just make up stuff as they go along. Recently I attended a baptist church and the preacher spent the whole time bending the scriptures to say that Christians are not allowed to "co-sign" on loans. What a mess.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 7, 2011)

Just a question looking for your answer, not anything in particular.. Do you mean that they are following the bible more closely, without trying to make it modern... the way they it SHOULD be done?



JFS said:


> Maybe too colloquial, but I meant mostly with respect to beliefs the bible is literal and inerrant.   That may be the "official" doctrine of many denominations, but in practice it seems to me some of the others are more liberal and open to individual and modern interpretations.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jun 7, 2011)

For me Baptists, particularly when I was growing up, have tended to be the most serious of Christians.  This means they were more likely to totally change the subject to trying to save you and how you're living your life wrong.  If that person was only 'saved' and religious for 6 months now, that was beside the point; they were fully qualified to make such determinations about others. They tended to be the most judgmental, the most cliquish, the most hypocritical, and least amiable of any denomination.


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## JFS (Jun 8, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> Just a question looking for your answer, not anything in particular.. Do you mean that they are following the bible more closely, without trying to make it modern... the way they it SHOULD be done?



Just as an example, the creation story in Genesis talks about the creation process lasting 6 days.     Knowing what we know now about the cosmos, some people take the story to be figurative or allegorical.   Others stick to the literal 6 day time period because that is what the bible in fact says.   

If you believe in the literal 6 day creation process, that to me would be an indication of fundamentalism- a belief system that doesn't allow for interpretation or accomodation in the face of non-biblical contradictory information.  Whether it "SHOULD" be done that way depends on your POV.


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## applejuice (Jun 8, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> For me Baptists, particularly when I was growing up, have tended to be the most serious of Christians.  This means they were more likely to totally change the subject to trying to save you and how you're living your life wrong.  If that person was only 'saved' and religious for 6 months now, that was beside the point; they were fully qualified to make such determinations about others. They tended to be the most judgmental, the most cliquish, the most hypocritical, and least amiable of any denomination.



yep, I feel the same way. 
To join the clique, you have to publicly accept jesus in front of the congregation ( not in your home, they cant see that). It was always a weird feeling to me watching the super religious interact with each other and other church members.


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## centerpin fan (Jun 8, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> I've seen on this forum negative connotations to baptist. Nothing crazily outrageous or mean, just negative.



I'm seeing the same thing in this thread.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 8, 2011)

That's what I was asking actually... But that's ok... I see 6 days fundamentalist... but can you really interperet EVERYTHING in the bible literally? I know every southern baptist pastor I ever had would talk about parables... 




JFS said:


> Just as an example, the creation story in Genesis talks about the creation process lasting 6 days.     Knowing what we know now about the cosmos, some people take the story to be figurative or allegorical.   Others stick to the literal 6 day time period because that is what the bible in fact says.
> 
> If you believe in the literal 6 day creation process, that to me would be an indication of fundamentalism- a belief system that doesn't allow for interpretation or accomodation in the face of non-biblical contradictory information.  Whether it "SHOULD" be done that way depends on your POV.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 8, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> I'm seeing the same thing in this thread.



I expected that since I had picked up on it pretty quickly from several places. It's not out of hand, just opinionated. Do you think it would be less negative in the other forum? Maybe, maybe not?


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## centerpin fan (Jun 8, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> Do you think it would be less negative in the other forum?



Yes.  

If nothing else, you might get some actual Baptists to post.   I don't think they hang out in this forum much.


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## rjcruiser (Jun 8, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> I expected that since I had picked up on it pretty quickly from several places. It's not out of hand, just opinionated. Do you think it would be less negative in the other forum? Maybe, maybe not?



I'm guilty of it.  I think the comments I've made are based on the hypocrisy of many within the SBC and the lack of holding to the Doctrines that the Baptist denomination was built upon.

Personally, I think the SBC has grown too large for its own good and rather than stick to its original mandates/beliefs, it has allowed member churches to morph into more localized denominations.  

For instance, you have the Stone Mountain SBC association which has its own ruling body.  It reports up to the mother ship, but it is allowed a lot of leeway in how it governs its member churches.  Therefore, you get some pretty vast differences between two SBC churches.

I do believe that there is a bit of an awakening within the SBC that is trying to right the ship (imho) and get back to the doctrines that the Baptist Denomination was built on.  Not sure if it can or will ever happen or not, but I sure hope it does.


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## stringmusic (Jun 8, 2011)

True story. I called the Southern Baptist Convention because they had some land that was very close to the land I already hunt, they proceeded to tell me that I could not hunt that land because of some kind of youth camp they have there in the summer.

I told them that I was only hunting in the winter time

I can see where the negative remarks some from


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## centerpin fan (Jun 8, 2011)

As a follow up to this:



centerpin fan said:


> Yes.
> 
> If nothing else, you might get some actual Baptists to post.   I don't think they hang out in this forum much.



... I'm just wondering if anyone who has replied so far is currently a member of a Baptist church.

Any Baptists want to weigh in?


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## stringmusic (Jun 8, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> As a follow up to this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am a member of a Baptist church, its an old church so I think the name has just stuck, we lean more toward non-denominational. I have went there all my life, so I cant really give much else on other Baptist churches. Nothing that has been posted on this thread from the A/A side of things has described the church body that I attend.


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## centerpin fan (Jun 8, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I am a member of a Baptist church, its an old church so I think the name has just stuck, we lean more toward non-denominational.



So, it's not an SBC church?  My comments come from growing up in an SBC church.  Because of that and because they are the biggest, I'm more familiar with their doctrine.  Like 1gr8bldr said, though, there are many different flavors of Baptist.


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## stringmusic (Jun 8, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> So, it's not an SBC church?  My comments come from growing up in an SBC church.  Because of that and because they are the biggest, I'm more familiar with their doctrine.  Like 1gr8bldr said, though, there are many different flavors of Baptist.



When you say SBC church, do you mean southern Baptist convention church?

Yes, we are apart of the Southern Baptist Convention. I couldnt tell you why.


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## centerpin fan (Jun 8, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> When you say SBC church, do you mean southern Baptist convention church?



Yes.


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## Tim L (Jun 8, 2011)

This is an interesting thread; to me because of the people that have chosen not to comment one way or the other (from both extremes for that matter)...It's actually pretty informative; not too many people playing games, trying to bait someone, or one up another post...Good points...TripleXbullies, while the SB are certainly the largest baptist denomentation, there is a wide spectrum out there.  One suggestion, you do seem inquisitive and just plain curious; find a "Primitive Baptist" church in your area and attend one of their services sometime....Extremely interesting;  (for the most part) their dogma's and beliefs are pretty reprsentative of most Baptist churches prior to the 20th century..


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 8, 2011)

I went through a three year period of looking for a good church. Spent anywhere from 1 day to several months per church. It was interesting and very different everywhere I went. After 40 years in a hometown family baptist church, I just felt like there had to be a vibrant church somewhere


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## Tim L (Jun 8, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> I went through a three year period of looking for a good church. Spent anywhere from 1 day to several months per church. It was interesting and very different everywhere I went. After 40 years in a hometown family baptist church, I just felt like there had to be a vibrant church somewhere



Did you ever visit a Christian Church or Church of Christ?


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 8, 2011)

I am curious yes... because I was sb for 20 years... or went to a church at least. It was all just normal to me. I think I can see a lot of the things that people are saying... maybe not as extreme as some are saying. I'm also not asking to find where I want to go. I just want to know why the kind of church I went to is looked at negatively by so many.


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## TTom (Jun 8, 2011)

One thing that leads to a generally negative view of Southern Baptist Churches is their political power. SBC was behind many of the Blue Laws remaining in place for so long. (They are the largest and therefor the most politically powerful) You can't overlook the kernels of truth you find in old Baptist jokes. Doctrine against dancing, and drinking and various other activities have long been fodder for jokes. 

Why can't Baptists have marital relations standing up? Someone might think they are dancing.


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## gtparts (Jun 8, 2011)

I'll be more than happy to field questions concerning SBC affiliation by the many local bodies of Baptist believers. Try to keep it down to a few questions at a time so that we don't get the typical "disconnect" between questions and answers.


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## stringmusic (Jun 8, 2011)

TTom said:


> One thing that leads to a generally negative view of Southern Baptist Churches is their political power. SBC was behind many of the Blue Laws remaining in place for so long. (They are the largest and therefor the most politically powerful) You can't overlook the kernels of truth you find in old Baptist jokes. Doctrine against dancing, and drinking and various other activities have long been fodder for jokes.
> *
> Why can't Baptists have marital relations standing up? Someone might think they are dancing.*


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 8, 2011)

Tim L said:


> Did you ever visit a Christian Church or Church of Christ?


All Baptist. Independent baptist, Southern Baptist, and just Baptist. I did spend some time at, well, I never asked. I woke up on the morning of, I think it was 40 days after easter ???, The day I call the debut of the Holy Spirit on mankind, and I decided I would go somewhere that day that acknowledged this great day in Christianity. I learned alot in those days. So many differences. To answer your question, no. What is a Christian church? Not trying to be funny, but they all claimed that. I'm trying to recall what the Church of Christ believes???


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 8, 2011)

I've read the whole thing, maybe I forgot... but my question was why is there so much negativity towards baptists... I just pointed out that I went to a sb church. So why do you think there is negativity, outside of the sbs, towards the sbs. Is that few enough?



gtparts said:


> I'll be more than happy to field questions concerning SBC affiliation by the many local bodies of Baptist believers. Try to keep it down to a few questions at a time so that we don't get the typical "disconnect" between questions and answers.


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## jmharris23 (Jun 9, 2011)

I am a SBC pastor...but I'm not sure what the question is 

I'd be glad to field any questions related to the SBC or SBC churches though


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## jmharris23 (Jun 9, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> I've read the whole thing, maybe I forgot... but my question was why is there so much negativity towards baptists... I just pointed out that I went to a sb church. So why do you think there is negativity, outside of the sbs, towards the sbs. Is that few enough?



OK so I went back and read this.....the SBC because of its size is one of the most, if not the most influential of the mainline Protestant denominations. Just this brings some negativity of its own. 

Also the SBC tends to be very conservative. We believe that the bible is the inspired, inerrant, infallible Word of God. 

This conservative stance means that we take a hard line on many topics, such as marriage, divorce, abortion, drunkeness, women's roles in the church, etc. 

These are hot button topics and when someone takes a hardline conservative stance on them, they are often subject to a lot of negativity. 

This help answer your question?


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 9, 2011)

Yeah. That helps some. Women's roles like they shouldn't be pastors or something like that?

Now one follow up question. All of those things you mentioned are true, right? So people may be negative about things that they don't agree with, but are true about about sb. What about common misconceptions? Anything you know of?


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## jmharris23 (Jun 9, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> Yeah. That helps some. Women's roles like they shouldn't be pastors or something like that?
> 
> Now one follow up question. All of those things you mentioned are true, right? So people may be negative about things that they don't agree with, but are true about about sb. What about common misconceptions? Anything you know of?



Yes sir..like women shouldn't be pastors. 


The common misconceptions can be seen all over this thread. 

Judgmental, cliquish, hypocritical, angry comes to mind. 

Sure there are SBC people who might represent all these characteristics, as there are in every group. 

I am sure that there are some atheists who are judgmental, cliquish, and angry, but I don't believe that every atheist is. 

When you stand on what you believe to be the truth and refuse to back down from it, you are likely to be called all sorts of things I suppose.


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## rjcruiser (Jun 9, 2011)

TTom said:


> Why can't Baptists have marital relations standing up? Someone might think they are dancing.



Classic.


How do you keep a Baptist from drinking all your beer while fishing?  

Invite another Baptist along.


How can you tell the difference between a Baptist and a Methodist in the Liquor Store?  

The Methodist will say hi to you.





TripleXBullies said:


> Yeah. That helps some. Women's roles like they shouldn't be pastors or something like that?





jmharris23 said:


> Yes sir..like women shouldn't be pastors.




Well...that isn't necessarily true....and is why I posted what I did in my first response to this thread.  I know of a very prominent First Baptist Church within a town close to where I live that has a Woman Pastor...no...not the senior pastor...but pastor (I think they call her a minister).

Also, there are several SBC Seminaries that don't teach the innerancy of scripture.  Like I said, I believe that this is changing....somewhat of a reformation from within...but it is things like these that have caused most of the comments I have made against the SBC.

I will say, there are a lot of great SBC churches, pastors and church goers out there.  Often times, we focus on the negative only....that should not be the case.


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## gtparts (Jun 9, 2011)

For those interested in actually learning about the SBC, here is a link.

http://www.sbc.net/bfm/default.asp

In theory and, for the most part, in actual practice, the churches that choose to affiliate with the SBC agree to and uphold these articles to be true. Some member churches kind of "dance" around the subtle issues that arise, but they are few and if they become evident and divisive, they may be formally excluded from the convention.


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## Tim L (Jun 9, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> All Baptist. Independent baptist, Southern Baptist, and just Baptist. I did spend some time at, well, I never asked. I woke up on the morning of, I think it was 40 days after easter ???, The day I call the debut of the Holy Spirit on mankind, and I decided I would go somewhere that day that acknowledged this great day in Christianity. I learned alot in those days. So many differences. To answer your question, no. What is a Christian church? Not trying to be funny, but they all claimed that. I'm trying to recall what the Church of Christ believes???



In the early 1800's, groups in America from different Christian Groups such as Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Presyberrian, Catholic, got together and said; wait a minute, there are all these christians groups with different names, different dogmas, different theologies, etc...How can they all be right??  Finally the group decided that rather than following a particular church they would simply have the bible, with no other creeds or dogmas; no central governing authority; each church is independent.  Is not protestant, because it is not protesting the catholic church (which is what the term protestant meant)...It is not a product of the reformation, rather it is a restoration; it is simply an attempt to restore the practices of the orginal church...It is non demonenational in the sense that there is no central governing authority....The Christian Church (Independent) and the Church of Christ; with the main difference being the Church of Christ does not have music as part of their worship service...However in many areas; some Christian Churches are called Church of Christ; especially up north.  There is a third group that broke away from the Christian Church in the mid 20th century, the Disciples of Christ (some still refer to themselves as the Christian Church)....They are a denomenation in the sense that they have a central governing authority...

If you truly are not familar with the christian church, check it out and do some research, you may find what you have been looking for all along...Have included the website to our church; also the wiki explanation of our group....although it is from wiki, it is pretty accurate....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Christian_Church


http://www.hamiltonmillchristianchurch.com/


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## jmharris23 (Jun 9, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Classic.
> 
> 
> How do you keep a Baptist from drinking all your beer while fishing?
> ...




I am speaking strictly of women in the role of senior pastor. The SBC does not discourage or prohibit women to serve in any other ministry role. 


As far as the seminaries you are wrong here, there are only 6 SBC seminaries. Every one of them states that they affirm and teach the inerrancy of Scripture. You may go to each website and check that our for yourself if you like. 

Also you may go here: http://www.sbc.net/bfm/default.asp

This is the Baptist Faith and Message and is the doctrinal beliefs of the SBC.


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## rjcruiser (Jun 9, 2011)

gtparts said:


> For those interested in actually learning about the SBC, here is a link.
> 
> http://www.sbc.net/bfm/default.asp
> 
> In theory and, for the most part, in actual practice, the churches that choose to affiliate with the SBC agree to and uphold these articles to be true. Some member churches kind of "dance" around the subtle issues that arise, but they are few and if they become evident and divisive, they may be formally excluded from the convention.



In my experience, this just isn't the case.


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## jmharris23 (Jun 9, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> In my experience, this just isn't the case.



Then you have had an unusual experience because this is exactly the case. 

I don't mean this harshly or defensively. I am just saying that this is way it works in the SBC.


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## rjcruiser (Jun 9, 2011)

jmharris23 said:


> I am speaking strictly of women in the role of senior pastor. The SBC does not discourage or prohibit women to serve in any other ministry role.
> 
> 
> As far as the seminaries you are wrong here, there are only 6 SBC seminaries. Every one of them states that they affirm and teach the inerrancy of Scripture. You may go to each website and check that our for yourself if you like.
> ...



JM...I don't want to turn this into a bash the SBC thread.  Like I said before, there are some great SBC churches...there are some great SBC Pastors...there are some great SBC Seminaries.  

I just know that there were faculty members at SBC seminaries that did not teach the innerrancy of scripture at certain times.  How?  Former pastors that were trained at these seminaries mentioned they had teachers teaching it.  Are they still on the faculty?  Not sure.  As I said before, there is a bit of a reformation going on in the SBC on these issues which is a good thing imho.  

So...that being said....posting a website with doctrinal beliefs and actual adhearance to them are two very different things.  It is my opinion based on recent events that the SBC is trying to right the ship on these issues....and I know it is a very big ship and doesn't turn on a dime.


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## applejuice (Jun 9, 2011)

jmharris23 said:


> Then you have had an unusual experience because this is exactly the case.
> 
> I don't mean this harshly or defensively. I am just saying that this is way it works in the SBC.



Why can't a women be a senior pastor?


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## jmharris23 (Jun 9, 2011)

Well I am not going to argue with you and this will be my last post regarding the subject. What you are saying was true of the SBC 30 years ago.... but in the late 70's led by Patterson, Rodgers, Stanley, Hunt and others the SBC went through what is commonly known as the conservative resurgence. This began to turn the ship around...in 30 years its turned way around. 

I was not speaking of the convention's past but its present.


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## rjcruiser (Jun 9, 2011)

jmharris23 said:


> Then you have had an unusual experience because this is exactly the case.
> 
> I don't mean this harshly or defensively. I am just saying that this is way it works in the SBC.



Really?  How many churches have been kicked out of the SBC?


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## jmharris23 (Jun 9, 2011)

applejuice said:


> Why can't a women be a senior pastor?



Because the stance of the SBC is that the biblical pattern for leadership whether at home or in the church is that the man should take the lead. You can read that on the link I provided earlier.


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## rjcruiser (Jun 9, 2011)

applejuice said:


> Why can't a women be a senior pastor?



You should do a search on the qualifications of a pastor/elder.  It has been discussed quite a bit on this board


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## jmharris23 (Jun 9, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Really?  How many churches have been kicked out of the SBC?



Well in the last few years I know of 2 here in Georgia and several across the country.


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## rjcruiser (Jun 9, 2011)

jmharris23 said:


> Well in the last few years I know of 2 here in Georgia and several across the country.



If they were the two kicked out around 1999-2000, they were the first two to ever get the boot.  And they got the boot based on their teachings on homosexuality.

There's over 42,000 SBC churches.  If they truly stuck to the doctrine posted above, there'd be far fewer in the current SBC roll.


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## jmharris23 (Jun 9, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> If they were the two kicked out around 1999-2000, they were the first two to ever get the boot.  And they got the boot based on their teachings on homosexuality.



It was not these two and it will only take you google and a few minutes to find the most recent ones. 

Just to be helpful you can search FBC Decatur, FBC Druid Hills, and Broadway Baptist 




> There's over 42,000 SBC churches.  If they truly stuck to the doctrine posted above, there'd be far fewer in the current SBC roll.



I don't agree with you at all on this. I prefer to believe that the majority of the churches under the SBC umbrella actually just fall in line with the Baptist Faith and Message. 

You also need to know that every church with Baptist in its name is not a SBC church. 

In fact in my own hometown the First Baptist church is not a member of the SBC and is a part of the CBF.


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## rjcruiser (Jun 9, 2011)

jmharris23 said:


> I don't agree with you at all on this. I prefer to believe that the majority of the churches under the SBC umbrella actually just fall in line with the Baptist Faith and Message.



Really?  Wow...I guess.  I looked at the churches listed in the Stone Mountain Baptist Association (a chapter of the SBC) and was amazed at the variety of churches listed within.  Clicked a few links and it was easy to see that there were many differences between the member churches (and no, I don't mean contemporary or traditional).



			
				jmharris23 said:
			
		

> You also need to know that every church with Baptist in its name is not a SBC church.
> 
> In fact in my own hometown the First Baptist church is not a member of the SBC and is a part of the CBF.



Oh..I know that every church with Baptist is not in the SBC.  I actually read an article earlier today when trying to find out how many churches had gotten the boot from the SBC about a Baptist Church in SC that somehow found its way on the SBC list/mailing list even though they weren't SBC  It was somewhat humorous.


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## applejuice (Jun 9, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> You should do a search on the qualifications of a pastor/elder.  It has been discussed quite a bit on this board





So a woman could be, its just against the policies of the church or SBC. 

I dont think Jesus cares if a woman or a man is spreading the word of god.


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## rjcruiser (Jun 9, 2011)

jmharris23 said:


> It was not these two and it will only take you google and a few minutes to find the most recent ones.
> 
> Just to be helpful you can search FBC Decatur, FBC Druid Hills, and Broadway Baptist



I googled and couldn't find these....I knew that their was one in Dekalb that had the woman pastor that was under fire but hadn't gotten the boot the last I heard.  Glad to see it finally happen.

edit to add this quote from Michael Ruffin, pastor of First Baptist Church in Fitzgerald, Ga.,

“There are many, many, many more provisions in the Baptist Faith and Message,” Ruffin warned. “I don’t want the GBC to become even more creedal in its application of the Baptist Faith and Message than it has on this one score. We really should consider the arbitrariness of such an application. I think we also ought to consider the possibility that if we get serious about holding every Georgia Baptist Convention church accountable to every line in the Baptist Faith and Message as we are this one, we’ll soon have no churches left.” 

http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/5876/53/


While I disagree with Ruffin on his stance in the Druid Hills case, he makes that point that the Creeds and Doctrines of the SBC are really not enforced.


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## rjcruiser (Jun 9, 2011)

applejuice said:


> I dont think Jesus cares if a woman or a man is spreading the word of god.



Then your thinking is contradictory to God's Word.


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## applejuice (Jun 9, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Then your thinking is contradictory to God's Word.



I know that much

Me and Jesus just drank a beer at hooters and he said he really didnt care. 
He also said that GON forums are pretty cool.


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## rjcruiser (Jun 9, 2011)

applejuice said:


> I know that much



Then why would you post that you think you know what Jesus thinks?


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## jmharris23 (Jun 9, 2011)

You win...the SBC stinks


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## rjcruiser (Jun 9, 2011)

jmharris23 said:


> You win...the SBC stinks



Never said that.  I've mentioned in this thread several times that the SBC has a lot of good things going for it.

Rather, I've pointed out some of the issues that people have with it and tried to explain why I think some of these issues exist.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 9, 2011)

Tim L said:


> In the early 1800's, groups in America from different Christian Groups such as Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Presyberrian, Catholic, got together and said; wait a minute, there are all these christians groups with different names, different dogmas, different theologies, etc...How can they all be right??  Finally the group decided that rather than following a particular church they would simply have the bible, with no other creeds or dogmas; no central governing authority; each church is independent.  Is not protestant, because it is not protesting the catholic church (which is what the term protestant meant)...It is not a product of the reformation, rather it is a restoration; it is simply an attempt to restore the practices of the orginal church...It is non demonenational in the sense that there is no central governing authority....The Christian Church (Independent) and the Church of Christ; with the main difference being the Church of Christ does not have music as part of their worship service...However in many areas; some Christian Churches are called Church of Christ; especially up north.  There is a third group that broke away from the Christian Church in the mid 20th century, the Disciples of Christ (some still refer to themselves as the Christian Church)....They are a denomenation in the sense that they have a central governing authority...
> 
> If you truly are not familar with the christian church, check it out and do some research, you may find what you have been looking for all along...Have included the website to our church; also the wiki explanation of our group....although it is from wiki, it is pretty accurate....
> 
> ...



Actually, at the time I was searching, I did not know what I was looking for.  But now, 6 years later, I'm looking for a non trinitarian church. I can't find one????


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## jmharris23 (Jun 9, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Never said that.  I've mentioned in this thread several times that the SBC has a lot of good things going for it.
> 
> Rather, I've pointed out some of the issues that people have with it and tried to explain why I think some of these issues exist.



Yeah...just messing with ya...hence the smiley


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## rjcruiser (Jun 9, 2011)

jmharris23 said:


> Yeah...just messing with ya...hence the smiley



I gotcha...didn't know exactly how to take it.

I realize that some of my posts seem anti-SBC in this thread and I'm trying hard not to come across that way in this thread.

I know in pasts discussions, I've been less than flattering when commenting on the SBC, but I do realize that they've done a ton of great things for the advancement of the Kingdom of God.


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## jmharris23 (Jun 9, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> I gotcha...didn't know exactly how to take it.
> 
> I realize that some of my posts seem anti-SBC in this thread and I'm trying hard not to come across that way in this thread.
> 
> I know in pasts discussions, I've been less than flattering when commenting on the SBC, but I do realize that they've done a ton of great things for the advancement of the Kingdom of God.



My feelings are not easily hurt....it comes with the job to have a thick skin.

As far as the SBC goes it has its good and bad just like every other organization of people in the world. When it comes to doing work for the kingdom there is always room for improvement. Whether its on a huge global level or just the itty bitty local church.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 9, 2011)

This is a little off of my original topic, but this is all junk to me. Finger pointing everywhere, I'm right, no I'm right, no we're right so we're going do our own thing, then a couple of those people say wait we're not right any more so we break away again and point more fingers. That's not to mention the other - none of those other people are right...




Tim L said:


> In the early 1800's, groups in America from different Christian Groups such as Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Presyberrian, Catholic, got together and said; wait a minute, there are all these christians groups with different names, different dogmas, different theologies, etc...How can they all be right??  Finally the group decided that rather than following a particular church they would simply have the bible, with no other creeds or dogmas; no central governing authority; each church is independent.  Is not protestant, because it is not protesting the catholic church (which is what the term protestant meant)...It is not a product of the reformation, rather it is a restoration; it is simply an attempt to restore the practices of the orginal church...It is non demonenational in the sense that there is no central governing authority....The Christian Church (Independent) and the Church of Christ; with the main difference being the Church of Christ does not have music as part of their worship service...However in many areas; some Christian Churches are called Church of Christ; especially up north.  There is a third group that broke away from the Christian Church in the mid 20th century, the Disciples of Christ (some still refer to themselves as the Christian Church)....They are a denomenation in the sense that they have a central governing authority...
> 
> If you truly are not familar with the christian church, check it out and do some research, you may find what you have been looking for all along...Have included the website to our church; also the wiki explanation of our group....although it is from wiki, it is pretty accurate....
> 
> ...


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 9, 2011)

I prefer to believe... You may prefer... But how is the sbc governing? Do they have salts in every church? Are the normal members inclined to tell on their churches for not following the sbc?

I don't see how a governing body can be adding any kind of value to anything of this nature. Sorry..

All of these rules here and here... This all seems way to manly to be of a divine creator's plan.



jmharris23 said:


> I don't agree with you at all on this. I prefer to believe that the majority of the churches under the SBC umbrella actually just fall in line with the Baptist Faith and Message.
> 
> You also need to know that every church with Baptist in its name is not a SBC church.
> 
> In fact in my own hometown the First Baptist church is not a member of the SBC and is a part of the CBF.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 9, 2011)

One more thing.. This thread has gotten way off track from what I had originally intended. I don't care that it has, but for the record it's not what I had intended.


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## rjcruiser (Jun 9, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> I prefer to believe... You may prefer... But how is the sbc governing? Do they have salts in every church? Are the normal members inclined to tell on their churches for not following the sbc?
> 
> I don't see how a governing body can be adding any kind of value to anything of this nature. Sorry..
> 
> All of these rules here and here... This all seems way to manly to be of a divine creator's plan.



The governing body helps pool resources for certain things.  I think it is a help in certain matters and a hinderance on others.  Just like a corporation, their's benefits to being big and their benefits to being small.



TripleXBullies said:


> One more thing.. This thread has gotten way off track from what I had originally intended. I don't care that it has, but for the record it's not what I had intended.



Not hard to believe as most threads get off topic.  

Can you steer it back on track?  What did you intend?


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## jmharris23 (Jun 9, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> One more thing.. This thread has gotten way off track from what I had originally intended. I don't care that it has, but for the record it's not what I had intended.



Sorry about that...but if you will ask specific questions you will get specific answers

As the thread starter you are also free to delete the thread if you like.


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## jmharris23 (Jun 9, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> All of these rules here and here... This all seems way to manly to be of a divine creator's plan.



Of course it is.....the way the church exists today as an organization is probably not what God intends.....but the body of Christ that makes up these churches are exactly the body that Christ intended.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 9, 2011)

Eh... 

I guess the questions I had were already answered. I don't really need to steer it anywhere. I don't feel the need to delete it. Do you JM? 

So I'm of a completely different mindset now, but what I hear about why baptists are looked at negatively, was in a lot of ways normal for me growing up, so I don't see it as bad or not bad. For myself, I don't think it was specifically the baptist part of what I was trained for so many years that makes me who I am today. It wasn't the extremeness of it. It is all of it. 

I guess nothing I've heard leads me to say, "YEP, that's it, that's what I dislike about my first 20 years of church, that's why I am who I am today."   I'm not saying I was looking specifically JUST for that, but thought it could possibly shine some light.. It didn't really, but I think what I've heard was enough to either show me that light or show me there will be no light like that.


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## jmharris23 (Jun 9, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> Eh...
> 
> I guess the questions I had were already answered. I don't really need to steer it anywhere. I don't feel the need to delete it. Do you JM?
> 
> ...




No I see no need to delete it.....I was just offering the option since you seemed to think the thread had gotten away from what you intended. 

Let me ask you a question...Do you dislike the church as an organization or Christ? 

To ask another way...what do you think of Jesus?


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 9, 2011)

I tried to make sure I was clear that it didn't bother me that it got off track since I felt I got what I wanted.

Jesus was probably a man on Earth. The son of the one and only god described in the holy bible, probably not. The church as the organization (business) that I am familiar with is something that helps lead me to that decision. 

What leads me to all of this is another thread of questioning things. Then questioning them again, and again, and again. Not all of those were because I was unsure or felt I was wrong, but because I saw it could happen the first time, why couldn't it happen again and lead me to be a Scientologist?? Show me the money!


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## jmharris23 (Jun 9, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> I tried to make sure I was clear that it didn't bother me that it got off track since I felt I got what I wanted.
> 
> Jesus was probably a man on Earth. The son of the one and only god described in the holy bible, probably not. The church as the organization (business) that I am familiar with is something that helps lead me to that decision.
> 
> What leads me to all of this is another thread of questioning things. Then questioning them again, and again, and again. Not all of those were because I was unsure or felt I was wrong, but because I saw it could happen the first time, why couldn't it happen again and lead me to be a Scientologist?? Show me the money!




Thanks for answering.....so you're saying that if it were not for the church..specifically a SBC church, you would believe in Christ as your Lord and Savior?


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 9, 2011)

No.. The opposite. The church as an organization definitely helped lead me to where I am, but is not the main reason. And I feel like the things I saw in my churches are similar across other denominations at least in christianity. There are many other more meaningful experiences and understanding of things that have influenced me more.

What I wanted to find out from this thread is if some of the things that happened in my own churches had more of a bearing than I feel they did. Like I said in the OP. I went to a non-denominational church for a while and it didn't seem much different.


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## jmharris23 (Jun 9, 2011)

I am confused...which is not unusual for me.

So do you or do you not blame the church or at least your experience of the church on your unbelief in Jesus Christ as the Savior?


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 9, 2011)

I don't blame the churches I have been to. I don't blame southern baptists. I did start this thread partially to understand if it may be the southern baptist churches I went to. It's not. 

The idea of the church and how they function as businesses definitely is a contribution. The actions of several leaders in churches I have attended have contributed. The actions of many specific people personifying some of things talked about here. They were not all sbs though, and I understand there are people with good intentions who are idiots. 
Those types of things someone could talk me out of I think. They could explain through in some way... but they were just contributions. They all contributed to the initial beliefs that I see a lot of guys in this forum have that have to do with basics and fundamentals of dieties and religion.


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## bullethead (Jun 9, 2011)

jmharris23 said:


> I am confused...which is not unusual for me.
> 
> So do you or do you not blame the church or at least your experience of the church on your unbelief in Jesus Christ as the Savior?



I am in no way trying to answer for tripleXbullies, this is my own reply to that question because it is a really good question. My steps towards getting away from religion started within the Church's (Catholic and Protestant)I was brought up in. When I started to lose my feelings for the church, it's ways and it's members it also led me to look further into it's history and what it is based from. The more I looked the less I liked. The more I researched the more it seemed to me that man would do or say anything to further his cause and that church(religion) is no different. It led to me dig deeper into the bible and it's stories. The more I really read it the more it seemed to me that the only superior being involved was man relying on human nature to control other men. It is nothing more than Big Business. Church was the starting point for me to make the decision to find out all I can that is both positive and negative about religion and then make my decisions based off of those findings. Being that I find church so corrupt, I find it's core corrupt and the stories it uses to further it's cause corrupt. I cannot in good faith believe that any one religion is more right than any other religion when such similar stories can be traced back before those religions started. To me, it all points to man making Gods in the way man wants to view them. Man uses them to justify their actions both good and bad and uses them to ease the thought of our mortality. All the in between stuff is just infomercials to sell the product and explain the unexplainable. If I cannot believe the church I cannot believe the religion and I cannot believe in a savior.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 9, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I am in no way trying to answer for tripleXbullies, this is my own reply to that question because it is a really good question. My steps towards getting away from religion started within the Church's (Catholic and Protestant)I was brought up in. When I started to lose my feelings for the church, it's ways and it's members it also led me to look further into it's history and what it is based from. The more I looked the less I liked. The more I researched the more it seemed to me that man would do or say anything to further his cause and that church(religion) is no different. It led to me dig deeper into the bible and it's stories. The more I really read it the more it seemed to me that the only superior being involved was man relying on human nature to control other men. It is nothing more than Big Business. Church was the starting point for me to make the decision to find out all I can that is both positive and negative about religion and then make my decisions based off of those findings. Being that I find church so corrupt, I find it's core corrupt and the stories it uses to further it's cause corrupt. I cannot in good faith believe that any one religion is more right than any other religion when such similar stories can be traced back before those religions started. To me, it all points to man making Gods in the way man wants to view them. Man uses them to justify their actions both good and bad and uses them to ease the thought of our mortality. All the in between stuff is just infomercials to sell the product and explain the unexplainable. If I cannot believe the church I cannot believe the religion and I cannot believe in a savior.



Hello Bullethead, It's in the corruption of the churches or religion that a need for a savior is most seen. Not by them, they will not see it. Think about it. Is that not what Jesus was saying? The bible comes to life.


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## bullethead (Jun 9, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hello Bullethead, It's in the corruption of the churches or religion that a need for a savior is most seen. Not by them, they will not see it. Think about it. Is that not what Jesus was saying? The bible comes to life.



I think the laws of ancient Jewish leaders turned into embellished stories of made up heroes in the OT. It started the Jewish religion and then those stories were the basis for writers to create a newer updated story centered around one man that was from god sent to die and become god to save us. I think it was created long after it supposedly took place so it could tie in with the OT but take it in a new, different direction. The fact that the Jewish people who LIVED right there in those times Do Not Believe Jesus Was Divine says a lot to me.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 9, 2011)

Jesus was Jewish himself... And they are "chosen" in the bible correct? But baptists say that's wrong, they are right. It doesn't make sense. 

Although I 1/4 German Jew... So maybe my important parts are chosen.



bullethead said:


> I think the laws of ancient Jewish leaders turned into embellished stories of made up heroes in the OT. It started the Jewish religion and then those stories were the basis for writers to create a newer updated story centered around one man that was from god sent to die and become god to save us. I think it was created long after it supposedly took place so it could tie in with the OT but take it in a new, different direction. The fact that the Jewish people who LIVED right there in those times Do Not Believe Jesus Was Divine says a lot to me.


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## stringmusic (Jun 10, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I am in no way trying to answer for tripleXbullies, this is my own reply to that question because it is a really good question. My steps towards getting away from religion started within the Church's (Catholic and Protestant)I was brought up in. When I started to lose my feelings for the church, it's ways and it's members it also led me to look further into it's history and what it is based from. The more I looked the less I liked. The more I researched the more it seemed to me that man would do or say anything to further his cause and that church(religion) is no different. It led to me dig deeper into the bible and it's stories. The more I really read it the more it seemed to me that the only superior being involved was man relying on human nature to control other men. It is nothing more than Big Business. Church was the starting point for me to make the decision to find out all I can that is both positive and negative about religion and then make my decisions based off of those findings. Being that I find church so corrupt, I find it's core corrupt and the stories it uses to further it's cause corrupt. I cannot in good faith believe that any one religion is more right than any other religion when such similar stories can be traced back before those religions started. To me, it all points to man making Gods in the way man wants to view them. Man uses them to justify their actions both good and bad and uses them to ease the thought of our mortality. All the in between stuff is just infomercials to sell the product and explain the unexplainable. *If I cannot believe the church I cannot believe the religion and I cannot believe in a savior.*



Try going about it in the opposite direction. Try the Saviour, then forget "religion" then try the Church. Just a thought.


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## bullethead (Jun 10, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Try going about it in the opposite direction. Try the Saviour, then forget "religion" then try the Church. Just a thought.



Been there, done that. It consumed me for roughly 20 years. Once I got an in depth look inside the church and organized religion the savior part didn't hold the clout it once did.


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## stringmusic (Jun 10, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Been there, done that. It consumed me for roughly 20 years. *Once I got an in depth look inside the church and organized religion the savior part didn't hold the clout it once did*.



Dont throw out the baby with the bath water.


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## gtparts (Jun 10, 2011)

With all due respect, bullethead, Jesus is the foundation. Everything else, whether good or bad, has human "fingerprints" all over it. So, if there are problems with the church (and there are), then a reasonable approach would be to accept that what is seen and known of the "church", is a less-than-perfect representation of Christ. 

Not making excuses, but the logic is kind of like rejecting the relationship you might have with the owner of a restaurant, who could turn out to be your best friend, based on an encounter with a rude waiter. Christ never disappoints, never abandons, but people.... well, if you stick around long enough, they will all eventually let you down. 

Evaluating whether to commit to a relationship with God based on a few people that claim to be followers may cause, has caused, many to reject Jesus. This is not an attack on you or anyone else, but that is flawed reasoning.


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## JFS (Jun 10, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Everything else, whether good or bad, has human "fingerprints" all over it.



Like the bible?


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 10, 2011)

"Jesus is the foundation" introduces religion.


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## stringmusic (Jun 10, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> "Jesus is the foundation" introduces *relationship*.



Fixed it fer'ya


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## JFS (Jun 10, 2011)

> Originally Posted by TripleXBullies
> "Jesus is the foundation" introduces relationship.






stringmusic said:


> Fixed it fer'ya




I would agree with you if that were really the case.  Like someone who had never heard of christianity came back from the wilderness and said- you know I met this guy named jesus and he explained everything to me.   People receiving and reciting the gospel sui generis and converting to christ without any any introduction to christians.

But it's not like that, it always starts with religion and then people move on to relationships with the imaginary, er, invisible and undetectable, dead guy.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 10, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I think the laws of ancient Jewish leaders turned into embellished stories of made up heroes in the OT. It started the Jewish religion and then those stories were the basis for writers to create a newer updated story centered around one man that was from god sent to die and become god to save us. I think it was created long after it supposedly took place so it could tie in with the OT but take it in a new, different direction. The fact that the Jewish people who LIVED right there in those times Do Not Believe Jesus Was Divine says a lot to me.


 Have you ever given any thought to whether Jesus actually claimed to be God?  Did you ever see my thread "what did Jesus claim"? Sounds like you have done some research on the bible so I wonder if you have in this area?


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## gtparts (Jun 10, 2011)

JFS said:


> Like the bible?



I think any reasonable person understands that, with all the transliterations and translations, what we have is the result of many well-intended and some ill-intended people "repackaging" the original. That is why the Holy Spirit is key to understanding what God originally communicated. 
Pick up any book that has been translated from French, German, or whatever and you have to some degree a close copy of the original..... something perhaps having been lost and/or perhaps slight alterations or additions. Being able to get clarification from the author helps in getting the true picture.



TripleXBullies said:


> "Jesus is the foundation" introduces religion.



Actually, the original purpose was and still is to introduce individuals to God for reconciliation and relationship. If you read the Bible, it is clear that part of God's intent was to distinguish a relationship with Him from all religious practices, then and now. 

Let me give you an example:
 By being born to a particular lineage, a person may be eligible to join the Sons of the Confederacy, but because of being raised in Seattle by social activist parents and a liberal, progressive education, the idea of documenting and applying for membership is basically unthinkable, perhaps repugnant. They have never been sympathetic to the organization or its efforts because their only exposure to "Southern culture" was a couple of redneck in-breds at their worst. Chances are slim that they have a clue about the SoC themselves.

Does that person really have an accurate and unbiased view on the organization and their efforts? 

When "Christians" behave badly, why would you hold that against Christ? I don't. And believe me, I've met the entire spectrum of those claiming Christ. Some are quite adept at claiming Him and denying Him, almost in the same breath.

Next time you encounter a "Christian" that is behaving badly, call them on it. Ask them if they truly believe their speech and behavior are consistent with how Jesus lived and what He taught. Don't attack them. Just calmly ask, "Did Jesus ever say things like you said or behaved as you behaved?"
It never hurts to be reminded of "whose we are", even by non-believers.

Bottom line: God has always opposed the religions of men. He has always been about relationships. Jesus came to tell us how to have a relationship with the Father, not start another religion.


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## stringmusic (Jun 10, 2011)

gtparts said:


> I think any reasonable person understands that, with all the transliterations and translations, what we have is the result of many well-intended and some ill-intended people "repackaging" the original. That is why the Holy Spirit is key to understanding what God originally communicated.
> Pick up any book that has been translated from French, German, or whatever and you have to some degree a close copy of the original..... something perhaps having been lost and/or perhaps slight alterations or additions. Being able to get clarification from the author helps in getting the true picture.
> 
> 
> ...



X1000
The consensus seems to be to the contrary, especially in this forum, hopefully this sentence does not get skimmed over in your post.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 10, 2011)

So me posting this thread was not god pushing me to try to find him again. This relationship is imaginary and like I said, if I did have something similar... EXACTLY the same except for 1 thing... The NAME of the person I had a relationship with.. If his name was Simon and I told people about it. I'd be institutionalized and heavily  medicated.


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## Da Possum (Jun 10, 2011)

I use to be baptist; but I got tired of the hypocrisy; now I just don't care for any of that jesus crap.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I just be keepin it real


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## rjcruiser (Jun 10, 2011)

hdm03 said:


> I use to be baptist; but I got tired of the hypocrisy; now I just don't care for any of that jesus crap.
> 
> Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I just be keepin it real



Funny...we all found out in a thread about child dedication that Baptists aren't the only hypocrits.

You gonna stop being human since you're tired of all the hypocrisy in the world today?


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 10, 2011)

This is true.. I agree with that... If I have issues with hypocracy it's not with  people, it's with the words in the bible. You can try to justify what looks hypocritical in the bible any way you want, parables, god is mysterious, I think what god meant here is this... it makes everything a whole lot harder to believe. I don't need to point out scripture, everyone knows it's there and everyone will have an argument either way for any siting.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 10, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Funny...we all found out in a thread about child dedication that Baptists aren't the only hypocrits.
> 
> You gonna stop being human since you're tired of all the hypocrisy in the world today?


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## gtparts (Jun 10, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> So me posting this thread was not god pushing me to try to find him again. This relationship is imaginary and like I said, if I did have something similar... EXACTLY the same except for 1 thing... The NAME of the person I had a relationship with.. If his name was Simon and I told people about it. I'd be institutionalized and heavily  medicated.



Why you posted is not completely evident. Perhaps God is using your thread to cause you to reconsider at some point. I do not know. Since I have a relationship with God and it is only evident to others by the way I conduct myself, with His help, I do my best. It is far removed from the imagination and the person I am is far removed from the person I was. 


Your comment concerning Simon, I will take as hypothetical. If your relationship with Simon was real and exactly the same as my relationship with Jesus, you would be quite a different person than you are. Knowing and being known by God is a choice, but it most certainly is not a delusion.


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## bullethead (Jun 10, 2011)

gtparts said:


> With all due respect, bullethead, Jesus is the foundation. Everything else, whether good or bad, has human "fingerprints" all over it. So, if there are problems with the church (and there are), then a reasonable approach would be to accept that what is seen and known of the "church", is a less-than-perfect representation of Christ.
> 
> Not making excuses, but the logic is kind of like rejecting the relationship you might have with the owner of a restaurant, who could turn out to be your best friend, based on an encounter with a rude waiter. Christ never disappoints, never abandons, but people.... well, if you stick around long enough, they will all eventually let you down.
> 
> Evaluating whether to commit to a relationship with God based on a few people that claim to be followers may cause, has caused, many to reject Jesus. This is not an attack on you or anyone else, but that is flawed reasoning.



I hear what you are saying and you used a good analogy. The owner of the Restaurant is a real person that I do not have to imagine anything about him/her. But you have to understand that before I started to dislike the organized religion I did not question Jesus or God. They were to me as you think of them now. The base, foundation, rock.... I used to believe all else stemmed from them. As I got more and more suspicious about church I researched deeper and did not like what I found.I grew more suspicious about religion and as I researched that deeper I did not like what I found or believe what I always thought was true. The foundation, rock, base of christianity also came into suspect for me while researching religion. It is when I made my own conclusion that we (man) made it all up. Outside of the Bible Jesus is insignificant. As I find the bible to be solely the work of man I have to conclude Jesus is too. I do think there was a person named Jesus that claimed to be the son of god, but like many others before him and after, they passed on as mortals with only their followers still believing the hype and then embellishing it many years later in stories told by people that were not there to witness any of it. The people that were there never told of such feats, miracles or even wrote down if they thought it was magic or trickery. The jewish people did not think he met the criteria for the messiah and they were there!

I do not believe in Jesus because the research I have done leads me to believe he was not the son of god and I do not believe in mans perception of the god of the bible. My distaste for church and organized religion are not the sole reasons for not believing in Jesus, they just were the cracks in the dam that led me to further investigate and make my own educated opinions about all of them. I did not do this over a weekend or take it lightly, it has been 22 years in the making and the longer it goes on the more strongly I feel that christianity and it's entire foundation is totally man made.


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## rjcruiser (Jun 10, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> This is true.. I agree with that... If I have issues with hypocracy it's not with  people, it's with the words in the bible.



Not sure I follow, but I guess I understand.

My thing is that most who aren't in church blame it on the hypocritical people that make up the church.  

Well...that's like saying I won't go to a hospital to get better because it's full of sick people and I don't want to get sick.


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## bullethead (Jun 10, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Have you ever given any thought to whether Jesus actually claimed to be God?  Did you ever see my thread "what did Jesus claim"? Sounds like you have done some research on the bible so I wonder if you have in this area?



I do not think that he specifically said he was the son of god anywhere in the bible. Then again being that the NT was written by people who never actually spent time with Jesus......The only way to learn or know what Jesus claimed is from the bible because a few secular historians barely mention a man named Jesus or Christ so I do not think he was too impressive back in the day. No more or no less impressive than the other people to make similar claims.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 10, 2011)

I do know that it's not.

Yes, Simon is hypothetical. Could be Theodore or Alvin. What I'm saying is that you relationship with god, clinically speaking (no, I'm not a doctor) , I think could easily be considered psychotic. As long as you say it's god you're talking to, you're off the hook.



gtparts said:


> Perhaps God is using your thread to cause you to reconsider at some point. I do not know.
> 
> 
> Your comment concerning Simon, I will take as hypothetical. If your relationship with Simon was real and exactly the same as my relationship with Jesus, you would be quite a different person than you are. Knowing and being known by God is a choice, but it most certainly is not a delusion.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 10, 2011)

I agree with you. You're right on all accounts there. Esepecially the hospital! I try to stay away... or the vet. I hate taking my dogs to the vet because they'll get sick from the other sick dogs. 

One thing I am sure you will also admit is that the hypcritical people help god at all.



rjcruiser said:


> Not sure I follow, but I guess I understand.
> 
> My thing is that most who aren't in church blame it on the hypocritical people that make up the church.
> 
> Well...that's like saying I won't go to a hospital to get better because it's full of sick people and I don't want to get sick.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 10, 2011)

Homer has a couple of really big books too huh?



bullethead said:


> I do not think that he specifically said he was the son of god anywhere in the bible. Then again being that the NT was written by people who never actually spent time with Jesus......The only way to learn or know what Jesus claimed is from the bible because a few secular historians barely mention a man named Jesus or Christ so I do not think he was too impressive back in the day. No more or no less impressive than the other people to make similar claims.


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## bullethead (Jun 10, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Have you ever given any thought to whether Jesus actually claimed to be God?  Did you ever see my thread "what did Jesus claim"? Sounds like you have done some research on the bible so I wonder if you have in this area?



About as close as it gets..

Matthew 26:63-66; Luke 22:67-71 (New American Standard Bible)
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Matthew 26:63-66

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, “I [a]adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are *the Christ, the Son of God.” 64 Jesus *said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, [c]hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.”*


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 10, 2011)

I don't know that I've ever read NASB. That doesn't make much sense to me though... but now we know that heaven has clouds that some kind of entities there sit on?


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## bullethead (Jun 10, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> I don't know that I've ever read NASB. That doesn't make much sense to me though... but now we know that heaven has clouds that some kind of entities there sit on?



Go Figure.......


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 10, 2011)

bullethead said:


> About as close as it gets..
> 
> Matthew 26:63-66; Luke 22:67-71 (New American Standard Bible)
> Page Options
> ...


*I'm gonna bump up my old thread, the part that deals with this*


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