# Does Jesus' teachings pertain to us?



## Artfuldodger (Apr 26, 2012)

I get confused trying to figure out the "old law/new covenant thing. When Jesus went around teaching the people still had to follow the Old Covenant Law. Jesus hadn't died yet, obviously, so does his teachings not pertain to us because he hadn't died yet?
This is from an article that I was reading:
Did he teach the fulfillment of the Old or a New Covenant? We must solve the question to rightly divide the word of God. Your answer to this question determines how you view all scripture. If you determine Jesus was teaching a New Covenant (which was different and alien to the Old Covenant) then your view of the Old Law has nothing to do with you. Therefore, I do not need to know it or understand it. The New Testament is all that I need. On the other hand, if you determine that Jesus taught the fulfillment of the Old Law. Then you understand that the Old Law plays an intricate part in the New Covenant, and the two are interleaved. Therefore, I must know the Old to understand the New Covenant. 
From the link below:
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/covenant.html


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## Huntinfool (Apr 26, 2012)

> Did he teach the fulfillment of the Old or a New Covenant?



Yes.

_	“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
(Matthew 5:17 ESV)_


The best way that I can explain it is that God is good and, so, anything he establishes is also good.  If that weren't the case then he would neither be good or perfect...and he is both.

So...the Law is good and did not need to be abolished, ignored or put away.  Jesus came to fulfill the law so that, through him now, we are justified (rather than being justified through the Law).  

The Law is good.  We are not.  Now, through faith in Christ we can be saved apart from a futile attempt to fulfill the Law perfectly.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 26, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> Yes.
> 
> _	“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
> (Matthew 5:17 ESV)_



That's my belief based on that scripture. I like this from the article:

Jesus did not say follow the New Covenant. On the contrary, he told them to follow the current covenant he was under. At that time the rich man was under the Old Covenant. If he were teaching another covenant, would Jesus not be remised if he did not say, I've come teaching a new covenant and you must follow it to be saved. Or, After my death my servants will tell you a new law. No. He told him to follow God's Law (which, at the time, was revealed through the Old Covenant law).


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## gordon 2 (Apr 26, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I get confused trying to figure out the "old law/new covenant thing. When Jesus went around teaching the people still had to follow the Old Covenant Law. Jesus hadn't died yet, obviously, so does his teachings not pertain to us because he hadn't died yet?



They apply to us spot on. His teaching is our discipline. He taught in parables and with works remember? Not all could accept. Some did. For some then and you and I now, the veil to these is lifted. For example the parables of the Kingdom and the teachings become plain.


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## Huntinfool (Apr 26, 2012)

I ammended my first post.  I think it clarifies what I mean.


Also....hope this doesn't derail...but could someone explain to me what the "New Covenant" is exactly?


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## gordon 2 (Apr 26, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> That's my belief based on that scripture. I like this from the article:
> 
> Jesus did not say follow the New Covenant. On the contrary, he told them to follow the current covenant he was under. At that time the rich man was under the Old Covenant. If he were teaching another covenant, would Jesus not be remised if he did not say, I've come teaching a new covenant and you must follow it to be saved. Or, After my death my servants will tell you a new law. No. He told him to follow God's Law (which, at the time, was revealed through the Old Covenant law).



The meaning of fullfilling the law in scipture means to put it away to me and the purpose of the law was to gate-in a people and point them to grace ( see prophets). The purpose of grace was to open that gate.

I'm not sure why I have this in my heart. The ministry of Jesus was full of grace. His behaviour went beyond the law's letter to the law's purpose which was grace, freedom, liberty, justice, peace etc....


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## hobbs27 (Apr 26, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> I ammended my first post.  I think it clarifies what I mean.
> 
> 
> Also....hope this doesn't derail...but could someone explain to me what the "New Covenant" is exactly?



Old Covenant = Law, Gods people lived under the law
New Covenant = Grace, Gods people today live under grace.

To explain more exact I'll have to get back to you after work, if needed.


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## Huntinfool (Apr 26, 2012)

Nope.  Good enough.  

_	Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. 	
(Hebrews 9:15 ESV)_


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## gordon 2 (Apr 26, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> I ammended my first post.  I think it clarifies what I mean.
> 
> 
> Also....hope this doesn't derail...but could someone explain to me what the "New Covenant" is exactly?



The New Covenant( from the tradition of the  Covenant of the Hebrews) provides for gentiles and jews ( all people) to be a part of God's chosen for grace and not because they were freed from Egypt via Moses. It is not a covenant to form a people to the one God of Abraham for the law, but to release them to the purpose of that law and the  purpose of the devine nature, which for now ( in our new covenant) is grace.

There is no doubt more to come. In the old covenant God was jealous. Now He is perhaps a bit more careful (grace).


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## Ronnie T (Apr 26, 2012)

Jesus came to fulfill the promises of the Law.  Jesus did that in the gospels.  His death burial and resurrection.

In truth, the Gospels transport us from the old law into the new relationship with God thru His Son.

The Gospel's prepare the world for the coming kingdom.


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## Ronnie T (Apr 26, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> I ammended my first post.  I think it clarifies what I mean.
> 
> Also....hope this doesn't derail...but could someone explain to me what the "New Covenant" is exactly?



Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 
8 For finding fault with them, He says, 
   “BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, 
WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT 
WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH; 
9 NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS 
ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND 
TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; 
FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, 
AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD. 
10 “FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL 
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: 
I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, 
AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. 
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, 
AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 
11 “AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, 
AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, ‘KNOW THE LORD,’ 
FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME, 
FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM. 
12 “FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, 
AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.” 

 13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. 


*The 'new covenant' is about a 'new relationship'.


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## Huntinfool (Apr 26, 2012)

I'm honestly glad so many people are responding to that question.  I think, sometimes, we need to remind ourselves of what we're actually talking about when we throw out Christian-eze terms.  

The lose their meaning over time if we don't remind ourselves.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 26, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
> (Hebrews 9:15 ESV)[/I]



What about transgressions committed  under the new covenant? How does God deal with sin under the new covenant?


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## Huntinfool (Apr 26, 2012)

You tell me.


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## Ronnie T (Apr 26, 2012)

What does the Bible say?

It doesn't much matter what I say.


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## Michael F. Gray (Apr 26, 2012)

God's only begotten Son came to earth, born of a woman because none of us could keep the LAW. His death on the CROSS, burial in Joseph's borrowed tonb, and resurection the third day defeated death ushering in the dispensation of GRACE. The Law is to us but a schoolmaster, a foreshadowing of things to come. We are Blessed to enjoy God's Amazing GRACE. That Grace affords us the opportunity to REPENT of our SINS and accept Salvation. Jesus Christ withes to not only be our Savior, but also the Lord of our life. To know HIM is to LOVE HIM.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 26, 2012)

We have more power over sin with the help of the Holy Spirit. We have a new nature.


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## Ronnie T (Apr 26, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> We have more power over sin with the help of the Holy Spirit. We have a new nature.



I totally agree.


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## barryl (Apr 26, 2012)

Amen !!!!!! I see some serious Bible study going on 1 Tim. 2:3-4, 2 Tim. 2:15 and 2 Tim. 3:15-17


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## polkhunt (Apr 26, 2012)

I know people like to quote Matt 5:17 but we need to read on through to verse 20. I think that tells us alot about how far we are missing the mark.


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 26, 2012)

But I like Pork


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 26, 2012)

polkhunt said:


> I know people like to quote Matt 5:17 but we need to read on through to verse 20. I think that tells us alot about how far we are missing the mark.


 Reading through from 17 to 20, verse 18 states "till all be fulfilled." When will that be or when will that happen?
Matt:5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matt: 5:20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

This sounds like you got to do more than talk the talk.


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## Ronnie T (Apr 26, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Reading through from 17 to 20, verse 18 states "till all be fulfilled." When will that be or when will that happen?
> Matt:5:18
> For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
> Matt: 5:20
> ...



Wasn't it all fulfilled when Jesus was resurrected, ascended back into heaven, and the church(kingdom of heaven) was begun in Acts 2?

Heb 8:13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.


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## Israel (Apr 26, 2012)

Jesus is the man of whom we first hear in Genesis, "let us make man in our image and in our likeness"...
Just as Jesus is found on every page of the Tenach, so are we...like children...waiting...till we hear..."I told you someday this would be yours...now here are the keys...drive safely according to the lessons you've learned..."
Christ in us the hope of Glory...


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## gordon 2 (Apr 26, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> Wasn't it all fulfilled with Jesus was resurrected, ascended back into heaven, and the church(kingdom of heaven) was begun in Acts 2?
> 
> Heb 8:13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.



Brother I love that you gently tump Acts 2 once in a while.

37 Hearing this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the apostles, "What must we do, brothers?" "You must repent," Peter answered, "and every one of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of th Holy Spirit."

Hum! I guess all this time the Anglicans had it right!

Peace brothers. Du calme.


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## Ronnie T (Apr 26, 2012)

gordon 2 said:


> Brother I love that you gently tump Acts 2 once in a while.
> 
> 37 Hearing this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the apostles, "What must we do, brothers?" "You must repent," Peter answered, "and every one of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of th Holy Spirit."
> 
> ...



It once occurred to me that Acts 2 records a majestic change for heaven and world, for physical world and spiritual world.

In Acts 2 the Holy Spirit was brought to those who believed in Jesus and trusted in God.  And God began adding those who are saved by the blood of His son into His kingdom.

And their lives totally changed in the new covenant.  Just as God had wanted..... they had all things in common.  They all loved God, from their hearts.  All their possessions belonged to everyone.  It was God's great joy.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 26, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> Wasn't it all fulfilled with Jesus was resurrected, ascended back into heaven, and the church(kingdom of heaven) was begun in Acts 2?
> .



Maybe, or it could have been fulfilled in his return in 70ad.
either way it's fulfilled.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 26, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> Maybe, or it could have been fulfilled in his return in 70ad.
> either way it's fulfilled.



"Till all are fulfilled" won't happen "until Heaven & Earth pass."


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## NE GA Pappy (Apr 26, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> Maybe, or it could have been fulfilled in his return in 70ad.
> either way it's fulfilled.



come again????


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## hobbs27 (Apr 27, 2012)

NE GA Pappy said:


> come again????



I believe most of Revelations is fulfilled prophecy..problem is I have tried, and can't refute the possibility that it has all been fulfilled...I'm somewhere in between amillennial and preterist which would make me a partial preterist...but that leaves too many questions unanswered.
   So I'll at this point in my life accept either idea, " Most prophecy was fulfilled at Calvary" Or "All prophecy was fulfilled at the destruction of the temple in 70ad."

http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/s/significance-of-ad70.html


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## NE GA Pappy (Apr 27, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> I believe most of Revelations is fulfilled prophecy..problem is I have tried, and can't refute the possibility that it has all been fulfilled...I'm somewhere in between amillennial and preterist which would make me a partial preterist...but that leaves too many questions unanswered.
> So I'll at this point in my life accept either idea, " Most prophecy was fulfilled at Calvary" Or "All prophecy was fulfilled at the destruction of the temple in 70ad."
> 
> http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/s/significance-of-ad70.html




I don't know why you think Jesus would have come again at the Temple destruction.  I know of no history recording this.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 27, 2012)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I don't know why you think Jesus would have come again at the Temple destruction.  I know of no history recording this.



Some would argue its in the writings of Flavius Josephus.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 27, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> "Till all are fulfilled" won't happen "until Heaven & Earth pass."



Mark 13:31
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.



While speaking to his disciples about the end of the age of human rule on earth Jesus said said:


> I'm not sure what "when Heaven & Earth shall pass" means. I'm not sure when to take the Bible literally.
> There's about three different ideas on when this is.
> 
> Old covenant=the Law of Moses
> ...


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## hobbs27 (Apr 27, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Mark 13:31
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what "when Heaven & Earth shall pass" means. I'm not sure when to take the Bible literally.
> ...



It just makes for an interesting study, for me.It doesn't change the fact that Jesus was born of a virgin, is 100% man and 100% God, Died on the cross and was resurrected......and he did all that so a sinner like me may have salvation.


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## gordon 2 (Apr 27, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> "Till all are fulfilled" won't happen "until Heaven & Earth pass."



Ever consider that Heaven and Earth passed away with the New Covenant? I'm not saying this is the case, but when looked at what must change in man in the New Covenant, namely man's mind it might be possible to say that the old heaven and earth passed away for the ministry of Jesus and the cross.

  Heb. 8;10 “FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL 
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: 
I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, 
AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. 
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD.
AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

See Ronie T's full post on Heb 8 below.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 27, 2012)

gordon 2 said:


> Ever consider that Heaven and Earth passed away with the New Covenant? I'm not saying this is the case, but when looked at what must change in man in the New Covenant, namely man's mind it might be possible to say that the old heaven and earth passed away for the ministry of Jesus and the cross.


This is the most widely accepted metaphor. What does this metaphor mean? Is the new Heaven & Earth a metaphor too?
Are the other verses talking about Heaven & Earth passing a metaphor? Another interpretation would be, and as an example, like the band the Eagles getting back together. They said He11 would freeze over first. Some believe Jesus was saying (using a better analogy that He11 freezing over) the Heavens & Earth would pass away first.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 27, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why are we not good also if God created us? Did God not foresee that humans would not be able to keep the Law?
Are there any rules to follow under the new covenant?


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## Ronnie T (Apr 27, 2012)

Matt:5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Heb 8:13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

*Every jot and tittle of the first covenant were fulfilled through Jesus Christ.


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## barryl (Apr 27, 2012)

Hey A.D., heres how I rightly divide Gods word, Doctrinally,Spiritually,and Historically


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 27, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> Matt:5:18
> For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
> 
> Heb 8:13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
> ...


 Ronnie, how do you explain your views against OSAS if the Law has been fulfilled? Jesus while on Earth was teaching under the Old Covenant. I don't feel like we need to follow all the Laws of Moses but Jesus mentioned certain rules & actions if we don't want to call them Laws that we must keep and live by as Christians.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 27, 2012)

barryl said:


> Hey A.D., heres how I rightly divide Gods word, Doctrinally,Spiritually,and Historically


I've always divided it two ways but three sounds even better. Now the hard part for me is which is which? Some parts I don't have trouble with, others not so easy. I guess it takes studying and praying.


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## Ronnie T (Apr 27, 2012)

Grace. Grace. Grace.

Some Christians preach the grace of Jesus but ignore His Lordship.

Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.


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## Israel (Apr 28, 2012)

"Does Jesus teaching pertain to us?"

Only if we want to know him.


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## hummerpoo (Apr 28, 2012)

My margin notes in my Bible for the Sermon on the Mount are:
5:3-12 - Introduction
5:13-16 - guidance for disciples to express their faith
5:17-20 - Jesus shows proper view of Law (fulfill = developed potentiality)
5:21-48 - examples of fulfilled Law (developed potential)
6:1-21 - Examples of conduct for those who are salt and light (fulfilling law)
6:22-34 - The power to be salt and light comes from Spirit not flesh
7:1-13 - How to make it work
7:15-23 - How to know citizens of the city of light
7:24-27 - Invitation

If "fulfill" is viewed as to understand the underlying meaning and purpose it all makes sense to me.  The law is not done away with, it is lived.


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## Israel (Apr 28, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> My margin notes in my Bible for the Sermon on the Mount are:
> 5:3-12 - Introduction
> 5:13-16 - guidance for disciples to express their faith
> 5:17-20 - Jesus shows proper view of Law (fulfill = developed potentiality)
> ...



amen...

the covenant whereby the law was an external "message" to us...has now become obsolete...the author himself has now come to live within...it is the difference between trying to navigate by a map written in a foreign language on foreign soil...or handing the wheel over to someone who knows exactly where they are going, because they live there.


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## Ronnie T (Apr 28, 2012)

And, the 1st covenant was only for a chosen nation.  For people who were born of their mother into the covenant.  Not in the covenant because they loved God, but because God loved them.

The 2nd covenant is a better covenant.  

*I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, 
AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. 
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, 
AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 
11 “AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, 
AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, ‘KNOW THE LORD,’ 
FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME, 
FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM. *

In the New Covenant, a person knows and believes in God before he's accepted into the covenant.  
And it is based upon a real, true, heartfelt relationship.  In this covenant a person doesn't live by laws, but their lives are transformed.  
Their lives and purposes have been transformed and reborned.
It is a covenant of choice.  

Thus the verses at Romans 6:1,2.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 28, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> And, the 1st covenant was only for a chosen nation.  For people who were born of their mother into the covenant.  Not in the covenant because they loved God, but because God loved them.
> .



The first covenant was between God and the Jew, but it was intended for all. This is where the Jew failed God by not being as great with God as they could, they could have been the bright and shining light for the world to see Gods greatness through, but their bigotry stopped it {Jonah for example} 
Jesus no doubt angry with the religous Jew in Matthew 23:15 says, Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of he11 than yourselves.


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## gordon 2 (Apr 28, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> The first covenant was between God and the Jew, but it was intended for all. This is where the Jew failed God by not being as great with God as they could, they could have been the bright and shining light for the world to see Gods greatness through, but their bigotry stopped it {Jonah for example}
> Jesus no doubt angry with the religous Jew in Matthew 23:15 says, Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of he11 than yourselves.



I have always been impressed ( from reading scripture) by the mother of Jesus, and his relatives, the father and mother of John the Baptist and John the Baptist.

Their spirituality was very intimate and impressive and not unlike some charismatics in our times. I get the feeling these people had the Father in the their hearts not unlike we christians have today. 

Had they had the vote they would have voted with their hearts, not with the paternal bloc that was the Temple  Authority in Jeruselm.

They were classed as perochial misfits from Galilee and eventually undesirables--but they changed the world. For me they have never stopped being beautiful and my profound source for what is beauty.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 28, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> And, the 1st covenant was only for a chosen nation.



Were Adam & Eve Jews? or Noah? When did non chosen humans arrive and whose lineage did they come from? These would be historical questions more than anything else.


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## gordon 2 (Apr 28, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Were Adam & Eve Jews? or Noah? When did non chosen humans arrive and whose lineage did they come from? These would be historical questions more than anything else.



Yes Adam and Eve were Jews and good ones, even  before there were godly Jews. And Noah was a christian and a good one even before there were godly christians.

Non chosen humans will come from your lineage if you do not teach them how a godly jew was as Adam and Noah was as a christian.

These are spiritual answers more than anything.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 28, 2012)

I was just trying to figure who and when people started following the Law of Moses. Maybe there was another covenant before the Law of Moses. I've read that Judah was the first Jew. Could just be semantics.


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## Ronnie T (Apr 28, 2012)

Gordy???????   

The Law was given, by God, to those people that he rescued from captivity in Egypt.

Adam and Eve were pure blood world conquerers.  All the world belonged to them, yet only the garden.

Noah.  Well Noah was too righteous to drown.  But not an Israelite.


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## hummerpoo (Apr 29, 2012)

gordon 2 said:


> I have always been impressed ( from reading scripture) by the mother of Jesus, and his relatives, the father and mother of John the Baptist and John the Baptist.
> 
> Their spirituality was very intimate and impressive and not unlike some charismatics in our times. I get the feeling these people had the Father in the their hearts not unlike we christians have today.
> 
> ...



Those who are Spirit guided have always been, are, and will ever be, world changers; the world has, does, and will view them as misfits, undesirable, even peculiar; from eternity past, now, and to the end of time they have, do, and will show the world that He is God.  And this not of themselves, but of the Spirit.

And men have, do, and will always believe that they have the power to do good in, and of, themselves.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 29, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I was just trying to figure who and when people started following the Law of Moses. Maybe there was another covenant before the Law of Moses. I've read that Judah was the first Jew. Could just be semantics.



Adam and Eve had a covenant with God, the easiest covenant to keep, but their flesh {outward man} failed God.They could do whatever they wanted to but not eat of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil.They broke the covenant and the covenant stood no more.

God made a covenant with Noah and his seed after him. This covenant still holds today and the token of this is the rainbow that God still displays in the sky.

God made a covenant with Abraham and his heirs (the nation of Israel) This covenant along with the laws of Moses is what most people consider the Old covenant.

Some Christians today believe this covenant still stands. Theres people that think they have to go to Israel to sink their feet into Holy Land..I believe all that was fulfilled through the death burial and resurection of Jesus Christ, and The covenant is now with (Whosoever will), and Holy Land can be stood on anywhere two or three are gathered in his name.

I look at the story of the Bible like this.

Israel in OT  = The church in NT
The Jew in OT = The saved person in NT
The Gentile in OT = The lost person in NT

It is our{saved folks} job to be the salt of the Earth, to be a light for those living in darkness, that they {lost folks} may find Jesus and become a child of the King also.That is the works we have to do....allow God to be seen through our lives.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 29, 2012)

Thanks for shedding some light!


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## Israel (Apr 29, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> Those who are Spirit guided have always been, are, and will ever be, world changers; the world has, does, and will view them as misfits, undesirable, even peculiar; from eternity past, now, and to the end of time they have, do, and will show the world that He is God.  And this not of themselves, but of the Spirit.
> 
> _And men have, do, and will always believe that they have the power to do good in, and of, themselves._


Who will deliver me from this body of death?


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## Ronnie T (Apr 29, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> Adam and Eve had a covenant with God, the easiest covenant to keep, but their flesh {outward man} failed God.They could do whatever they wanted to but not eat of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil.They broke the covenant and the covenant stood no more.
> 
> God made a covenant with Noah and his seed after him. This covenant still holds today and the token of this is the rainbow that God still displays in the sky.
> 
> ...



Thanks.
Good.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 5, 2014)

This is an old post but I had thoughts on these verses:

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Matthew 22:40
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Matthew 7:12
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Matthew 6:14-15
14"For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15"But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

John 15:4
Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 

In Matthew 25 Jesus commands us to help others and shows what will happen if you don't.
Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Matthew 25: 45
Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.

Do these pertain to us or was Jesus teaching to only the people alive during his life? Are we to follow the teachings of Jesus, Paul, or both? How does the "Dispensation of Grace" fit in with the teachings of Jesus?
What are some Bible verses showing me to ignore the teachings of Jesus? If Jesus wasn't teaching to me, I'll need proof.                                                       We could also discuss things along the lines of "between the testaments, Jesus was Old Testament, Jesus was a Torah keeper, his teachings were before the cross, or it was a transitional period."


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## hobbs27 (Mar 5, 2014)




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## Artfuldodger (Mar 5, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


>



Could you explain the "Romans road to salvation" or the "different gospel" mentioned in the video? Is part of the false gospel the part where Jesus teachings don't pertain to us because he was teaching just to the Jews and the Gentiles grace, laws, salvation, and sin list would come later from Paul?

I did find the video interesting. It wasn't really long enough to de-program me though.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 5, 2014)

I'm assuming we can atleast gather some knowledge from Jesus' teachings from a historical aspect. We can learn about love, helping others, obedience, forgiveness. 
I guess verses like the following are just for the Jews during the earthly days of Jesus:

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

In Matthew 25 Jesus commands us to help others and shows what will happen if you don't.
Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Matthew 25: 45
Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.

I'll need to ponder & pray for more guidance.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 6, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Could you explain the "Romans road to salvation" or the "different gospel" mentioned in the video? Is part of the false gospel the part where Jesus teachings don't pertain to us because he was teaching just to the Jews and the Gentiles grace, laws, salvation, and sin list would come later from Paul?
> 
> .



Yes, Jesus came only for the lost sheep of Israel. It helped me a while back when someone explained that the Bible is written for us but not to us. It helps put things in perspective.

Matt. 15:24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 6, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Yes, Jesus came only for the lost sheep of Israel. It helped me a while back when someone explained that the Bible is written for us but not to us. It helps put things in perspective.
> 
> Matt. 15:24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."



Would you say the Gospels are not part of the New Testament/Covenant and therefore should have not been placed there? Perhaps a Middle/Transitional Testament should have been created.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 6, 2014)

Acts 13:46
Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.

Would salvation have eventually been offered to the Gentiles if the Jews had not rejected the word of God?


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## hobbs27 (Mar 6, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Would you say the Gospels are not part of the New Testament/Covenant and therefore should have not been placed there? Perhaps a Middle/Transitional Testament should have been created.



No.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 6, 2014)

If Jesus died for our sins and we are now living under the Dispensation of Grace, what was Paul's point of listing sins? He said, The law is not for the just, but for the lawless and disobedient,

Maybe he was trying to show that Christians weren't under any of his list of sins. I'm just showing how Christians follow that Paul's list of sins might keep a Christian out of the Kingdom more than Jesus' list of sins will keep someone out of the Kingdom. Regardless of whom Jesus or Paul was addressing, the Kingdom of God is the same Kingdom and sins are sins regardless of whose list they are on. Paul's list is no different from the Old Testament's list.
The message is the same, we can't overcome sin and thus we need a Redeemer.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 6, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> No.



Besides your video link which did include Bible verses, what verse or verses let me know Jesus wasn't addressing me personally?


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## hobbs27 (Mar 6, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Besides your video link which did include Bible verses, what verse or verses let me know Jesus wasn't addressing me personally?



Everything in the bible is for you. Our souls feed off it, we grow spiritually from partaking of it. But there are hermeneutics one must understand to get an even clearer picture of the story of life...and life more abundantly.

 Is Matt. 15:24 not clear enough ? Jesus preached the coming of the kingdom to the Jew, that was His ministry. He also came to fulfill prophecy, which included dying on the cross, and rising from the dead. It was this that made a way for the gentile. He built a temple for the gentile and tore down Herods temple.

We can apply the Gospels and the teachings of Jesus to our lives, but first and foremost is the story of God coming down born of a virgin, teaching the coming kingdom to His chosen people.  They rejecting Him and hanging Him on a cross, and Him defeating the grave and rising again. He ascends and comes back 40 years later to destroy Herods temple and fully instate the New Covenant to all...Greek and Jew alike, no longer a difference and His temple is now in man....for that generation and many more to follow.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 6, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Everything in the bible is for you. Our souls feed off it, we grow spiritually from partaking of it. But there are hermeneutics one must understand to get an even clearer picture of the story of life...and life more abundantly.
> 
> Is Matt. 15:24 not clear enough ? Jesus preached the coming of the kingdom to the Jew, that was His ministry. He also came to fulfill prophecy, which included dying on the cross, and rising from the dead. It was this that made a way for the gentile. He built a temple for the gentile and tore down Herods temple.
> 
> We can apply the Gospels and the teachings of Jesus to our lives, but first and foremost is the story of God coming down born of a virgin, teaching the coming kingdom to His chosen people.  They rejecting Him and hanging Him on a cross, and Him defeating the grave and rising again. He ascends and comes back 40 years later to destroy Herods temple and fully instate the New Covenant to all...Greek and Jew alike, no longer a difference and His temple is now in man....for that generation and many more to follow.



In Matthew 15 Jesus did heal the woman's daughter afer all. He broke his own rule. Can we seperate Jesus' mission for the Jew only as teacher? In other words, did he come to die for just the Jew?


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## hobbs27 (Mar 6, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> In Matthew 15 Jesus did heal the woman's daughter afer all. He broke his own rule. Can we seperate Jesus' mission for the Jew only as teacher? In other words, did he come to die for just the Jew?



He did not die for just the Jew, but He didn't preach the cross. He was preaching the coming kingdom to the Jew.

And His decision to heal the woman's daughter was done through the woman's faith. That is symbolic to the New Testament in that through faith we become His chosen people.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 6, 2014)

Lost Sheep of the House of Israel

Who were these "lost sheep?" They are a unique sub-set of Gentiles who are Israelites, but they are not Jews. Viewed from a Jewish perspective, being non-Jews they are Gentiles. But viewed from an Israelite perspective, they are not Gentiles but fellow Israelites.  All Jews are Israelites, but not all Israelites are Jews.

In order to understand this verse we need to remember the title House of Israel was assigned exclusively to the Northern Kingdom when the Davidic Kingdom split. The Northern Kingdom was never Jewish, therefore Jesus command to first go to the Lost Sheep of The House of Israel was NOT a command to go first to "lost Jews".

Jesus was both an Israelite and a Jew.  He said in effect "do not go to Israelite Gentiles." (That is, "do not go to non-Israelites.") A common misinterpretation has Him referring to Jewish Gentiles by saying "do not go to non-Jews". That is not what Jesus said.

http://www.losttribes.net/menu/lostsheep.html


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## hobbs27 (Mar 6, 2014)

5- -These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; 6--but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7- And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 6, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> He did not die for just the Jew, but He didn't preach the cross. He was preaching the coming kingdom to the Jew.
> 
> And His decision to heal the woman's daughter was done through the woman's faith. That is symbolic to the New Testament in that through faith we become His chosen people.



Is it possible that Jesus didn't go against his mission by healing the woman's daughter but to show who is "the lost sheep of the house of Israel?"


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 6, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> 5- -These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; 6--but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7- And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.



Who do you consider to be the lost sheep of the House of Israel?


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## hobbs27 (Mar 6, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Who do you consider to be the lost sheep of the House of Israel?



Jeremiah 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray.

I think the Jew is Gods lost sheep that were led astray by the Priests.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 6, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Jeremiah 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray.
> 
> I think the Jew is Gods lost sheep that were led astray by the Priests.



Were they already lost when Jesus was teaching? Were there some saved Jews too? Are we talking about lost as in Salvation or lost as in not in Israel?


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## hobbs27 (Mar 6, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Were they already lost when Jesus was teaching? Were there some saved Jews too? Are we talking about lost as in Salvation or lost as in not in Israel?



They were considered lost because they were being led astray, away from God. Read the woes in matthew 23.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 6, 2014)

Art, here michael miano goes over just about everything we've talked about in this thread and others. I think you will enjoy it.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 6, 2014)

I will look at the videos tomorrow. That being said lots of this theology is relatively new to me, Full Preterism, Hyper Preterism, Jesus' ministery not for me, AD70, Holy Spirit Cessationism,  Covenant = Spiritualization, etc.
I'm not at the point to agree or disagree with anything. I am willing to consider or test the spirits. I really don't care if 90% of everyone else has it wrong or right. I don't agree that just because most Christians see it a certain way, it s the correct way.
You do a good job explaining your beliefs. Sometimes it's hard in a world where most don't believe exactly as you do. 
Again, I'll watch the videos, compare it to the Word, and pray on it. That's all I can do. I guess that's more than most will do, but I can't make any promises. I'm not trying to prove or disprove anything. I'm just looking for the truth.

Just curious, not that it matters, but do you go to a Church that has Preterist beliefs? Y'all do know a lot about the Jewish aspect & history in regards to Christianity. Which is a good thing as how can you be a good Christian if you don't understand that part of Christianity?


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## Israel (Mar 7, 2014)

Luk 21:24  And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. 
Luk 21:25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 
Luk 21:26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 
Luk 21:27  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 
Luk 21:28  And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. 
Luk 21:29  And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; 
Luk 21:30  When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. 
Luk 21:31  So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. 
Luk 21:32  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. 
Luk 21:33  Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 
Luk 21:34  And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 
Luk 21:35  For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 
Luk 21:36  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 7, 2014)

Israel said:


> Luk 21:24  And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
> Luk 21:25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
> Luk 21:26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
> Luk 21:27  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
> ...



Sometimes it is better not to say. Sometimes it is. It is written that the following was said and therefore we know it as important to all of us: Important! "Luk 21:36  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

Let me pray then on the subject of this tread. Now is my prayer, is my vision important? In comparison to Luke 21:36 my prayers are extremely carnal. Yet, knowing God, I dare lift up my prayers to Him, to our Christ, in his name, in the name of a faithful, mine, one of many.

"Pray always--that ye may be accounted worthy of escape."As I do this command, my prayer becomes a vision.

So what do I see in contemplation? I see the cross-- the common sign of Christians. A sign that stops time itself or history at least, and temporal history and spiritual history at that. It stops history as labor pains stop, yet knowing there will be more and then stop as a new life will be born in the image of our Lord. The cross is the sign of what was, what is and what will be. Yet it is only a sign of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is a weapon against the forces of evil. Yet on it and apart of it is our very dear Jesus.


My dear brother Isreal, oh how I am carnal, to speak to you in this way--share my lowly prayer! But dear, my dear do you recall when at the foot of the cross how some did bid on the garments of our Lord, while the son of Mary's body and of the Holy Spirit, our brother and Lord for salvation,  was made dead on the cross?

Are you there with me? Now turn your head at, the bidders at the foot of the cross and how their backs are turned.  Yet do we also today, the cross still being presented to us and visible to us, cast an eye on his garments as prize or at Christ?

 And the garments of our Lord for the cross have they not scripture as part of their fabric? (OH!) I am vile, carnal, a blinded visionary, a dunce, a dumb mute--who hopes to talk of a love he is not worthy to receive. But my heart speaks now--even gravely encumbered of my senses--For what I have that is in my heart I must think it perfect in Christ for my redemption.

Now do you understand that many Christians in our times are bidding on the garments of our Lord that is partly made by scripture. Our backs to the cross, to Christ's resurrection, we bid and bet on Peter vs. Paul or one generation against another. We accept or detest our lot bowing to garments-- the cross and Jesus  and Mary at our backs? I hope not. 

Maybe we are salt grinders and given the pure salt of baptism we do grind it down by our contentions, competitions and private revelations whereby our children a quite happy to be atheist? How salty can we be to be blessed with such children? The world has them? Oh what hold does the world have in us that we grind down our brothers to uselessness?

So who do we listen to? To the bidders of garments? Yes. To those who's gaze it not away from the cross  but to it? Yes. Yes, because that is the word Mary said to God. Ours must be a similar yes. Mary's yes is our most fundamental yes. It is a yes that comes from a right kind of faith. It is not a contentious yes, not a " Ok I guess yes", it is a yes that abandons itself to the light of God.

And so in that light, what little of it shines for me, for I am not worthy to even be in prayer,  nevertheless I stand present before the Son of man nailed to the cross. In him all that was, is and will be--- is. There is no need to add to the revelation of God.

Why do we contend so much on our Lord's garments, as if the dress made the him and makes us? What is our inheritance from our parent,  linens or life eternal? What do we stand for? What do we race for? What do we fight, if we must fight, for? Does Jesus's teachings pertain to us?
If they do we are with the Mary's at the foot of the cross, if they don't we are trading in garments perhaps?

My prayer is ended. Perhaps.  May you be creative in the Lord dear brother giving freely our Lords shirt to the poor, without contention or strife, and ever before you his love for all sinners, this be yours. GBU


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## hobbs27 (Mar 7, 2014)

Art, I am not trying to convert you or confuse you. I hope I'm doing nothing but demonstrating truth in the word of God. I enjoy being challenged on these prophetic scriptures knowing that iron sharpens iron it only makes one stronger to share scripture and interpretations.
 On a personal note as to your question..I don't believe there is such a thing as a preterist church. There's Pastors, preachers, and teachers that have preterist views of scripture but that isn't the main theme of the church. The main theme in all good churches is Jesus Christ as Savior.

 I visit around to several churches and to be honest I have been very lazy with my visiting lately and that has me troubled. I belong in worship somewhere every Sunday.

 I usually attend smaller independant non fundamental baptist churches, the ones that some call bapticostal. The type of Baptist church that is not ashamed of the spirit and welcomes it. I think they are somewhat of a phenomenon up her in north ga cause I've never found any like em abroad.  


Israel, I know the point you are making, claiming the end prophesied is on a global scale and could not be about Jerusalem.

I would like you and Art to read the text in the link I'm going to leave when you have some free time. It will explain better what I've gone through than I can myself, and better explain my point than I can. 
 Peace bros
http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/eschatology/bibl_eschat.htm


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 7, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Art, I am not trying to convert you or confuse you. I hope I'm doing nothing but demonstrating truth in the word of God. I enjoy being challenged on these prophetic scriptures knowing that iron sharpens iron it only makes one stronger to share scripture and interpretations.
> On a personal note as to your question..I don't believe there is such a thing as a preterist church. There's Pastors, preachers, and teachers that have preterist views of scripture but that isn't the main theme of the church. The main theme in all good churches is Jesus Christ as Savior.
> 
> I visit around to several churches and to be honest I have been very lazy with my visiting lately and that has me troubled. I belong in worship somewhere every Sunday.
> ...



I understand where you are coming from. I like to view different beliefs and viewpoints too.  Jesus and his teachings and who they pertain to isn't just a Preterist point of view, although it is a part of Preterism. It could just as easily be a part of Dispensationalism or other Eschatology. There are many Christians who don't follow the Bible except between Romans and Philemon. They too say the whole Bible is for study.
I can see your point about Jesus' ministery. I've always been taught it was for me. Prayer and the Word are needed. Do we still test spirits?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 7, 2014)

From the article in Hobbs link:

Biblical Eschatology

(Studying the Scriptures Anew)

by David Showalter

In the years that I've been alive, I have come to understand that there are very few things in this life that people will ever change unless they are forced to. I've also learned that next to politics, religion is the one area where people will yield very little ground. When confronted with a Biblical viewpoint that is contrary to their own, even good Christian people can become very hostile. The reason this happens is because deep down inside we all believe that our viewpoint is the right one. The idea that our paradigm of truth could be wrong, or even called into question, is extremely unsettling to most people.

For those of us raised in the church, especially those who attend the same church or denomination that they grew up in, if we are completely honest with ourselves, we must admit that our theological views are what they are simply because that's what we've always been taught. 
http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/eschatology/bibl_eschat.htm

I've said before, it does take a lot of strength to see things in a different light from what you have been taught. Just  like the Jews who converted, it took some time to convert all of the customs and traditions of the previous religion. I'm not saying everything has to be lost for the new. 
I'm not saying you should believe every new belief, just don't knock it to the side without seeing if it is Biblical.  Don't build a wall between you and it before deciding. 
Can you imagine how hard it is for someone to convert from one religion to another such as the Native Americans? It might take decades for old religious practices to stop, usually always staying intermingled.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 7, 2014)

Not that I'm crossing over to a Preterism view but the article is interesting. I've taken his approach on my views of the Trinity so I can identify with what he is talking about.
I've always thought the Bible was written directly to me instead of for me. That could be part of everyone's problem. We are quick to condemn others by using verses from Paul who was addressing Corinthians. I can usually learn something from well written articles even if I don't totally agree with everything in the articel.

From the article:
In keeping with the subject of audience relevance, this may perhaps shock many people, but there is not one book in the Bible that was written TO anyone living today. Every single book in the Bible was written FOR us, for application and understanding, but none of them were written TO us. Every book in the bible is a personal letter, a history book, or writing by a prophet to particular people at a particular time and for a particular reason. Yes, we do glean truth and understanding from these books today, but that is far different than saying that these books were written TO us. To put it another way, we are reading other people's mail. Whenever someone today says "Here's what this scripture means to me", we should be the first to say, "It doesn't matter what it means to you. It only matters what it meant to the original audience". That is where we find out what the Bible truly means.

http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/eschatology/bibl_eschat.htm


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## Israel (Mar 7, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Art, I am not trying to convert you or confuse you. I hope I'm doing nothing but demonstrating truth in the word of God. I enjoy being challenged on these prophetic scriptures knowing that iron sharpens iron it only makes one stronger to share scripture and interpretations.
> On a personal note as to your question..I don't believe there is such a thing as a preterist church. There's Pastors, preachers, and teachers that have preterist views of scripture but that isn't the main theme of the church. The main theme in all good churches is Jesus Christ as Savior.
> 
> I visit around to several churches and to be honest I have been very lazy with my visiting lately and that has me troubled. I belong in worship somewhere every Sunday.
> ...



I don't know what point I was making, honestly. I woke up this morning, read a few lines...heard what I believed to be "Heaven and earth shall pass away but my word shall never pass away"...at which point I kinda said, "hmm, Lord... Heaven too? and then wanting to make sure I was remembering what I thought was  being quoted I went to the book to check.

The whole of it was pretty intense. I repent of highlighting.
As Gordon said, can't add to the revelation...can't even "push" whatever part you may think needs to be, cause then folks get confused about points and such.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 7, 2014)

Israel said:


> I don't know what point I was making, honestly. I woke up this morning, read a few lines...heard what I believed to be "Heaven and earth shall pass away but my word shall never pass away"...at which point I kinda said, "hmm, Lord... Heaven too? and then wanting to make sure I was remembering what I thought was  being quoted I went to the book to check.
> .



If you knew what your point was then I would apologize for misunderstanding.  The link is still a great place to read its quiet long but lots of good stuff there.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 8, 2014)

One thing we futurist must try to reconcile is the fact that Jesus said things about "this generation," some of them would not taste of death - would not die - before he returned, until he came into his kingdom and But the end of all things is at hand.
It appears as some type of urgency. Does Paul speak with such urgency? He was teaching before 70AD.
So after Jesus is teaching about coming back in their generation, a few verses later he states that he doesn't know when he will return, only his Father knows. Maybe he meant just the day or hour.


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