# The Future of Georgia Hog Hunting



## JAGER (Jul 4, 2008)

I've read several opinions on various hog related threads this week. You have discussed origination, morals, ethics, hunting methods and even hog control. But there is one very important angle to your discussions which has been ignored. Many of you are so emotionally committed to your ethics and beliefs that you fail to logically see the big picture. Sometimes hunters are their own worst enemy.

It is the responsibility of the U.S. Department of Agriculture's (USDA) Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service (APHIS) to improve agricultural productivity and contribute to the national economy by providing Federal leadership and expertise to resolve wildlife conflicts. The USDA realizes the crop damage numbers caused by feral hogs in the United States will only get bigger unless changes are made. These issues WILL negatively affect Georgia hog hunting if we don’t change our mindset.

There is one common message at all the National Conferences on farming, wildlife damage and animal control. 





> Hunters (both traditional and doggers) are viewed as ineffective at dealing with feral hog control issues. Hog populations are actually rising across the Nation because hunters are taking a conservation approach to this invasive species. The USDA has no alternative than to begin taking measures to effectively reduce populations and crop damage in several states.



I received a phone call last week that one of our neighboring states has become the first on the East Coast approved to use aerial gunning with a helicopter for feral hog control. I’m quite sure hog hunters in this state were given zero notice that it was even being considered. Do you think the USDA will poll Georgia hunters or give us a warning before they take action in our state? No!



> Kansas and Nebraska have both passed legislation to make it illegal to hunt hogs in their state. These states blame hunters as the sole cause of the problem as many were caught illegally relocating hogs. Specifically hog dog hunters were targeted. Their “catch and tie” methods were used to capture the animals alive and start populations in other parts of the state. Large boars were transported and sold to hunting preserves. The only way Kansas and Nebraska were able to effectively deal with the spread of feral hogs was to make all hog hunting illegal and then asked the USDA to begin eradication procedures.



Do you think Kansas and Nebraska hunters were polled before they passed legislation? No!




Jim Thompson said:


> ...I can tell you that we have received more complaints from outside folks complaining about the use of dogs in hunting (any type) and our "allowance" of dog hunting threads on the forums than we could ever possibly get for thermal imaging. do yall want that to be the next to go away? cause many, many folks would rather you not use a pup to chase a pig.



I fully support every form of hog control through dog hunting, traditional hunting and trapping. It will take a combination of all methods to effectively manage the problem across the state. This is NOT a competition or a popularity contest to me. It is about doing what is right for both the future of Georgia farming and hog hunting. But we need to do a better job of policing ourselves and displaying our image to the public. In my opinion, there are three areas of responsibility which we fall short. Examples are below:



> (1) “We do not kill the hogs we catch, we sell them.” “Love hunting them too much. Catch and release.” “We also tie everything we catch except the trophy boars which go to a game preserve.”


How many pictures have we posted of live hogs in a trailer? Come on guys… Do you seriously think this is the best approach to ensure your sport is passed along to future generations?

What message is this sending to the USDA and our state legislators who are worried about the transmission of pseudorabies (PRV) and swine brucellosis to domestic pork? The USDA initiated a nationwide PRV eradication program in 1989. All states were successful in reaching disease-free status for PRV in domestic hog herds during late 2004. Since PRV has been reported in feral hogs from 10 states, the USDA is ultimately concerned about spreading this virus to domestic pork again.



> (2) “Only kill the hogs you can eat then leave the rest for another hunter.”


 NO! NO! NO! Attitudes like this will be our ultimate downfall. These statements are the #1 reason why hunters are viewed as ineffective at dealing with feral hog control issues by the USDA. The only way to ensure hog hunting will be passed to future generations in our state is to change this thought process and stop indicating we are trying to preserve them. 

What would happen if… doggers killed every hog they caught, trappers killed every hog they trapped and all other hunters harvested hogs at every available opportunity? I think we would have the following result: The state of Georgia will experience less crop damage, the hunting community will receive more admiration, the USDA will focus their efforts in other states and your children will continue to enjoy ample hog hunting in the future.

I’m not asking you to be an unethical hunter. Donate the extra meat to your church, friends or a local processor. Start a donation program in your hometown. Just consider the alternative. Do you think USDA agents recover 200-300 hogs killed from an aerial gunning mission in a helicopter?



> (3) “The problem is with the farmers and landowners that will not let us hunt their land.”


 No. The problem usually stems from a negative experience from another hunter. We need to figure out how to win their trust and effectively solve their problem. Some land owners are reluctant to allow hunters year-around access to their property for liability or privacy issues. Others have been burned by hunters "stocking" hogs once permission was granted. 

The land owner may not want you there 30 times per year. Put his mind at ease and just ask to be on call for one day when he has a problem. Then ensure you solve his business problem and gain his trust. It is all about establishing great working relationships, treating their land better than your own and effectively protecting their investment.

Bottom Line- Feral hogs will never be eradicated in our state via hunting or trapping. Our challenge is to effectively control them to the point where agricultural damage is minimal before a politician, USDA office or state law negatively affects hog hunting in Georgia.  

If you currently harvest as many hogs as possible at every available opportunity, thank you for doing the right thing. If you choose to illegally relocate feral hogs to establish new populations or replenish your free range hunting stock, you are part of the problem. This 10% will ultimately ruin the future of hunting for the rest of us. If you recognize the 10% and do nothing to change it, you are just as guilty.

This is my perspective of the situation. We can voluntarily change our approach NOW or lose our ability to make a decision LATER. The ball is in our court. I bet Kansas and Nebraska hunters wish they had another chance to decide.

---JAGER


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## Eddy M. (Jul 4, 2008)




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## Robk (Jul 4, 2008)

only problem I see with the aerial gunnery option is that for the most part the hogs they are looking to take out would be under thick canopy during most of the times that they would be airborne and folks in my neck of the woods would most likely shoot back if some helo was firing from above the tree line.

Just my opinion though.

Rob


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## bull0ne (Jul 4, 2008)

Good post Jager.


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## krentz (Jul 4, 2008)

isnt it illegal to transport live hogs in georgia?


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## sghoghunter (Jul 4, 2008)

Is illegal to relocate them unless they are tested.If you have them tested and are tested negative and have the permission of the landowner it is legal to relocate.


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## ejs1980 (Jul 4, 2008)

Jager, We kill all of the hogs we catch unless the landowner has other plans. I don't own a stock trailer and have no need for one. I do wish there was somewhere here to take wild hogs for sale/slaughter If there was I think alot more hogs would be killed. Most guys I know see the killing of anything without making use of it against there morals. I'm sure the USDA will not be asking landowners permission to hunt their property any more than they will poll us about opinions on doing it. The problem I'm having right now is the people asking me to come get their hogs are on 100-300 acre farms and depending on the lay of the land I'm not going to hunt them without neighboring landowners permission. I do this because I don't want to give people a bad taste in their mouth by tresspassing on their property. I try to leave a positive impression on people whether I'm hunting fishing or just hanging out. It makes no since to feed antis evidence to support their claims. I do tie hogs until I get ready to clean them if i think it's going to be an all day hunt. A four hour dead hog is no fun to clean. I guess we as hunters should spend more time at co-op and ag meetings trying to put a positive image in the minds of the farmers and landowners and to undo alot of things the bad apples have done. Hogs aren't a big problem here yet but when they are I'sure it'll be alot easier to get permission to hunt a place when they five acres of freshly plowed dirt that was peanuts the week before than getting it from a farmer that saw three hogs the other day but can't see where they hurt anything. Until then Me and my dogs will kill a few here and alot in north florida.


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## olcowman (Jul 4, 2008)

I have no problem with a farmer or landowner in general, who has a hog problem, allowing someone to remove the swine in an effective and efficient manner is a good practice. And I could care less if ya'll want to shoot em with hi-tech army scopes, lob grenades at them or fire patriot missiles from a jet or whatever rocks your client's boat. 

As that is the bottom line here, this is a business venture. If you were out only for the good of the poor old American farmer and the good of the environment, you wouldn't be charging such a price. Let's be honest with each other here and cut all the crap, you offer a needed service, and offer it in such a way that it is going to be quite abrasive to many of those who were brought up, generations upon generations, with a traditional sense of respect for the actual act of hunting and the creatures we pursue. On the other hand, there has always been those who also call themselves hunters (a few are quite prominent in the industry itself,) who rather than get out and pursue the game in the traditional way, prefer to have someone either capture his quarry from the wild or raise it on a farm and then confine it within a high fence until such a time this hunter can break free for a few minutes to come out and shoot the animal at his convenience. The ethics and use of the word _hunting_ to describe this sort of harvest are debated all over the world and everyone has their own opinion to express. I have the money to do the latter, but thank the Lord I still have the time and health to do it the traditional way. To each his own in this case.

Your new combination of extreme sports, military technology and hog eradication is exactly what it represents. Removal of unwanted swine as efficiently and quickly as possible. I am not sure if any aspect what so ever qualifies as hunting in the traditional sense here. Therefore perhaps a new catagory could be developed in this case. An entire industry could be started and champions could be crowned, tv shows aired on espn, or maybe even some kind of hog killer's olympics could be held. Perhaps this way we could disassociate hunting (the way most of us perceive it anyhow) from this new _"Extreme Eradication"_ and we can politely point out to the antis and public in general that we as hunters are not overwhelmingly advocating or are we part of this new venture in anyway.

Am I being overly reactive here? Follow the links and look at the posted pics of hogs piled up like cord wood with a little suckling pig or two throwed out front where the camera will be sure and not miss it. Watch the vids, and imagine this same scenario without the obvious trained marksmen. Those amazing shots at hogs running wide open aint going to be nearly as effective with Joe Blow behind the trigger. That is just what HSUS needs, a vid of a bunch of guys with $10K firearms running around a S Ga peanut field at midnight trying to dispatch 30 or40 squealing, gut shot hogs.

Ever been to slaughterhouse or placed a poor, non-lethal shot on a hog? You know that really nerve shattering sound they can make? Throw yourself in a couple of wet sows with broke backs desperately attemping to escape on their barely functioning front legs and a few little pigs with their high pitched distress calls and I think some of them PETA folks might just kiss you right on the lips.

I wish some restraint could be used in the posting of this type of thing although I realize you are trying to make a sale. Maybe some kind of disclaimer, (even when articles in outdoor magazines seen to promote this practice?), a statement from Mr Jager that his after dark field trips are not to be confused with hunting in any way, and is nothing more than a for profit joint venture between some agricultural enterprises, a buisinessman (_slash_) army sharp shooter, and some fellers with lots of money, with the sole purpose of killing as many hogs as humanly possible from private property and then getting their picture made.

The hunting community as a whole really needs to be prepared to answer the non hunting's public perception, when certain groups air these tidbits with their own spin on it. If you support it and think it is just another form of our beloved sport that is being threatend, then either get some really good lobbyists lined up or a pile of  money for a counter p.r. campaign. As for myself, I am going to state that it is not hunting as I have always thought it to be, that I have never and will never spend any of my own money in pursuit of or in support of any such practice, carried out in a kill for profit manner. And I would suggest that the antis look at the buisiness owners and the participants themselves, not the traditional hunters, as to answers, needs, and the facts surrounding this practice. 

I welcome any feedback if I am off base here. This is not a personal attack on Jager, as I can apreciate his entreprenureal spirit and acknowledge his service to our country in the armed forces. But perhaps if we as a forum are going to embrace his venture and accept it to some extent as part of the hunting community. I sincerely hope that some of the more industry experienced members and Mr Jager's personal friends on this board, can work with him regarding the possible implications of this relationship between hunting and hog control.


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## BornToHuntAndFish (Jul 4, 2008)

Good words of wisdom, Jager.  Well put with facts.  Unfortunately at times (like I've commonly heard said of some Christians) hunters can be our own worst enemy (or we've at times met the enemy & he is us sometimes) where we are the only groups/armies that shoot or try to take down our own wounded.  Anti-hunters, anti-gun groups, PETA, etc., love to see & feed off turmoil in our own ranks instead of us working together focusing on & helping each other in fixing the real problems we all face, instead of beating up on each other.  It would be good if we can learn to "agree to disagree agreeably" on a few areas.  Even Texas I keep reading & hearing about out of control, unmanageable, severe hog herd breeding/multiplying & damage problems on ranches seeking help, like coyotes according to well educated wildlife biologists & managers report you can never completely erradicate them & hogs, and hogs are way smarter than coyotes.  Like the ole saying goes, "If we keep doing what we're doing, we're just going to get MORE of what we already got."


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## SWbowhunter (Jul 4, 2008)

olcowman said:


> I have no problem with a farmer or landowner in general, who has a hog problem, allowing someone to remove the swine in an effective and efficient manner is a good practice. And I could care less if ya'll want to shoot em with hi-tech army scopes, lob grenades at them or fire patriot missiles from a jet or whatever rocks your client's boat.
> 
> As that is the bottom line here, this is a business venture. If you were out only for the good of the poor old American farmer and the good of the envioronment, you wouldn't be charging such a price. Let's be honest with each other here and cut all the crap, you offer a needed service, and offer it in such a way that it is going to be quite abrasive to many of those who were brought up, generation after generation, with a traditional sense of respect for the actual act of hunting and the creatures we pursue. On the other hand, there has always been those who also call themselves hunters and am few are quite prominent in the industry itself, who rather than get out and pursue the game in the traditional way, prefer to have someone either capture his quarry from the wild or raise it on a farm and then confine it within a high fence until such a time this hunter can break free for a few minutes to come out and shoot the animal at his convenience. The ethics and use of the word _hunting_ to describe this sort of harvest are debated all over the world and everyone has their own opinion to express. I have the money to do the latter, but thank the Lord I still have the time and health do it the traditional way. To each his own in this case.
> 
> ...



I kind of understand what you are saying, but in most states feral swine are not considered wildlife or game animals at all. That being said they are similar to other vermin...like roof rats for eample. When was the las time you saw peta campaining against roof rat eradication or control? Pigs do not have big brown eyes and anti's know they would take a beating. The 80% percent of americans who are not animal activist or hunters will not easily be won over by anti's when pigs are destroying golf courses and lawns.  May not happen in Georgia yet, but it happens in Florida and Texas all the time.  I think its great to call it hunting. Its what it is. But as hunters we need to understand our role as mangement tool and if we are not efficent enough, someone will find a better tool.


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## cpowel10 (Jul 4, 2008)

I like talking about this subject, we've had a good discussion in this thread and in the other thread without us saying anything to get it locked.

I think everyone knows my point of view about hogs so I'm not going to beat the dead horse by saying it all over again.  I believe hunting with dogs is a great way to control the animals numbers, and you can have a great time doing it also.  I have absolutely nothing against the practice at all and have more respect for the people who can chase a hog down and stab him than I do someone who just blasts them when they ride up on them. 

However, I've read several times (especially in the other thread) doggers making comments about farmers not letting them run hogs.  The comments are lumping all the farmers together as if they all will not allow them to run dogs and are all out to just make a buck.  Most comments about farmers are implying that they cry about the hogs eating crops but won't do anything about it.

The comments like these imply that all farmers are like that.  Sure there probably some farmers that do complain about the subject and do nothing about it, and this causes the whole group of farmers to look bad.

However......just as a few farmers like this cause a stereotype in the minds of doggers, a few doggers can cause a stereotype in the minds of farmers just the same.  I know 99% of doggers are great honest guys that are having a good time doing a great service, but I'd just like to make it clear that there are a few (very few) that have given farmers a bad taste in their mouth.

Just as a few farmers have ruined the reputation of all farmers in the eyes of doggers, a few doggers have ruined the reputation of all doggers in the eyes of farmers.


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## gigem (Jul 4, 2008)

Sulli, you can ride with me any night brother!


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## capt stan (Jul 4, 2008)

olcowman said:


> I have no problem with a farmer or landowner in general, who has a hog problem, allowing someone to remove the swine in an effective and efficient manner is a good practice. And I could care less if ya'll want to shoot em with hi-tech army scopes, lob grenades at them or fire patriot missiles from a jet or whatever rocks your client's boat.
> 
> As that is the bottom line here, this is a business venture. If you were out only for the good of the poor old American farmer and the good of the envioronment, you wouldn't be charging such a price. Let's be honest with each other here and cut all the crap, you offer a needed service, and offer it in such a way that it is going to be quite abrasive to many of those who were brought up, generation after generation, with a traditional sense of respect for the actual act of hunting and the creatures we pursue. On the other hand, there has always been those who also call themselves hunters and am few are quite prominent in the industry itself, who rather than get out and pursue the game in the traditional way, prefer to have someone either capture his quarry from the wild or raise it on a farm and then confine it within a high fence until such a time this hunter can break free for a few minutes to come out and shoot the animal at his convenience. The ethics and use of the word _hunting_ to describe this sort of harvest are debated all over the world and everyone has their own opinion to express. I have the money to do the latter, but thank the Lord I still have the time and health do it the traditional way. To each his own in this case.
> 
> ...



 I gotta agree with that 100% Very well said!


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## gigem (Jul 4, 2008)

This time of the year hog hunting almost becomes a job when the corn is getting ready. We dont have any problems or complaints with the fields we hunt. The only problem is we do not have enough time to get to all the land we have to take care of.


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## Public Land Prowler (Jul 4, 2008)

LOL!!!I would love to see them try to aerial attack the hogs I hunt!


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## gnarlyone (Jul 4, 2008)

*Why?*

The confusing thing to me is ...I hunt Dooly,Houston,Crisp,Macon,Taylor,Pulaski, and Peach counties...I have a very good relationship with my farmers..most of them are my friends with no  ties to hog hunting. I would bet that there is no other counties in Ga. that has the hog populations of the counties i hunt. I spend many hundreds of dollars a month checking each place for the first signs of any hog damage. WHY....does not even 1 of these farmers say they have ever said anything to the Ga.  F.B. about the hog problem and something being done about it?


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## cpowel10 (Jul 4, 2008)

gnarlyone said:


> The confusing thing to me is ...I hunt Dooly,Houston,Crisp,Macon,Taylor,Pulaski, and Peach counties...I have a very good relationship with my farmers..most of them are my friends with no  ties to hog hunting. I would bet that there is no other counties in Ga. that has the hog populations of the counties i hunt. I spend many hundreds of dollars a month checking each place for the first signs of any hog damage. WHY....does not even 1 of these farmers say they have ever said anything to the Ga.  F.B. about the hog problem and something being done about it?



Some farmers just don't have hogs on their property.  We've got a piece of property that has never shown any hog sign, I've never even seen a track on this place...but 1/4 mile away (according to google earth) I've got a friend who killed 60 hogs out of a field last year.

Some farmers have never had an issue at all with hogs, with your farmer(s) that may be the case.  The majority of farmers don't have an issue with hogs, some have a little damage from them, and some won't plant peanuts in certain fields because of the amount of hogs.


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## GobbleAndGrunt78 (Jul 4, 2008)

olcowman is very good with his words......well put!


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## gnarlyone (Jul 5, 2008)

*cpowel10*

These are the farmers that DO have hogs......They plant peanuts and corn..I catch around 40 hogs a year off each of the better farms to hunt and they  say they've never contacted GFB to report any damage or problems...or reported losses due to hogs...Total of over 30,000 acres...I just can't figure with the high hog population in this area...if these guys(about 20 farmers) aren't reporting this...where does this "data" come from?


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## cpowel10 (Jul 5, 2008)

gnarlyone said:


> These are the farmers that DO have hogs......They plant peanuts and corn..I catch around 40 hogs a year off each of the better farms to hunt and they  say they've never contacted GFB to report any damage or problems...or reported losses due to hogs...Total of over 30,000 acres...I just can't figure with the high hog population in this area...if these guys(about 20 farmers) aren't reporting this...where does this "data" come from?



What "data" are you talking about.

So your saying you have about 20 farmers that grow peanuts and corn that have plenty of hogs have little/no damage from hogs.  That may be the case, I don't know.

BUT are you insinuating that hogs don't cause much damage to corn and peanuts?  Are all the farmers who report damage liars?  The "data" your are talking about probably comes from people who have damage, from hogs.


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## gigem (Jul 5, 2008)

No, he is not talking about that! What he is saying BUDDY is the land we take care of with dogs not rifles,we dont have a promblem with!And no we dont call anybody liars or drunks,we solve HOG  promblems!


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## gnarlyone (Jul 5, 2008)

*cpowel10*

The data i'm talking about is the thousands of dollars(can't say a name or my post will be deleted) that someone says gets reported each year by farmers. I'm involved almost daily with farmers and hogs...I take my hunting as if it was a JOB. I would be willing to bet that my corn fields that i catch hogs regular out of loose less than $100 dollars in damage a year..even with corn almost $8 a bushel(56 lbs.) that would be 700 lbs. of corn...do you know how many ears of corn it takes to make 700 lbs.? Of coarse if nothing is done, the hogs do more damage but kept in check....it is prob. less than the deer do. One farmer was shooting 50 to 75 hogs a year...I started dog'n it ...last year he didn't shoot any and this year i haven't caught 1 hog there. It started as the best place i had to catch hogs....I'm involved daily..I actually see whats happening and have been doing it a long time...I see where more complaints should come from deer hunters/clubs with the hogs competeing with the deer for food than i do with actual damage to farmers(that let people help).


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## Jim Thompson (Jul 5, 2008)

just a heads up...

I received a couple of pm's over the last week or so wanting to know why we are defending an individual and not others...

that is not the case.  yall please debate the topics and styles but stay off the personal garbage while doing so and your threads will stay open and unedited.

this thread is a good case in point...so far so good.


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## Eddy M. (Jul 5, 2008)

Jim Thompson said:


> just a heads up...
> 
> I received a couple of pm's over the last week or so wanting to know why we are defending an individual and not others...
> 
> ...


Jim is only biased when it comes to FOOT  photos-- for a while there we at least had boots on the "dogs" but he's back to his old ways again


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## Jim Thompson (Jul 5, 2008)

Eddy M. said:


> Jim is only biased when it comes to FOOT  photos-- for a while there we at least had boots on the "dogs" but he's back to his old ways again


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## SELFBOW (Jul 5, 2008)

I think the peronal bashing of jager is over with but none of us will totally understand his true reasons for being here. I dont think Ga is over populated with hogs. I think there maybe be a few core areas that need some help from him but not on a statewide level.
Also comparing Ga to kansas and nebraska is off as well. they have 1,000 plus acre fields all over. How many 1,000 acre fields are their in Ga?


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## ejs1980 (Jul 5, 2008)

Well said buckbacks. Something we should keep in mind is GA isn't managing much in units. I don't think deer are overpopulated in all areas but everyone has the same limit. (trying to stay generic)  In those core areas that need to be heavily hunted either by Thermal imaging or helicopter shoots they will not remove every hog. They also aren't going to hunt areas with low concetrations of hogs. People aren't going to pay big bucks to hunt for three or four nights hoping to get a shot at a hog. Right now the're paying for shots at multiple hogs. Also the usda isn't going to spend thousands of dollars of fuel too kill hogs in areas where they will only kill a few hogs for several hundreds worth of fuel.


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## Public Land Prowler (Jul 5, 2008)

buckbacks said:


> I think the peronal bashing of jager is over with but none of us will totally understand his true reasons for being here.



I think it is quite obvious...


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## JAGER (Jul 5, 2008)

olcowman said:


> "A little rebellion is good for the soul" - Thomas Jefferson


 I know your type. Your moral compass supersedes the Department of Natural Resources.  



olcowman said:


> If you were out only for the good of the poor old American farmer and the good of the environment, you wouldn't be charging such a price.


Are you serious? You actually believe the only way to protect farmers and the environment is to perform these services for free. Do you feel the same way about the Soldiers, fire fighters and police officers protecting your community? Using your logic, these professionals should perform their services for free if they genuinely care about their community. 

You might have a valid point if I charged a fee to the farmers or the state/local government. But my services do not cost the taxpayers or the farming community a penny, unlike the USDA Wildlife Services. Prices to hunters are set by supply and demand, just like any other business model. It is the backbone of a market economy. If annual hunts are completely full with a waiting list, then prices are not  too expensive. 



olcowman said:


> …you offer a needed service in such a way that is going to be quite abrasive to many of those who were brought up with a traditional sense of respect for the actual act of hunting and the creatures we pursue.


 Georgia has displayed enough foresight to allow its hunters to legally use infrared equipment on invasive species at night to help solve the problem first. We have been given a trusted opportunity which South Carolina, Tennessee, Alabama and Florida hunters have not been extended. How “abrasive” do you think it will be this year to the hunters in our neighboring state to experience aerial gunning from a helicopter during the day? 



olcowman said:


> … The ethics and use of the word hunting to describe this sort of harvest are debated all over the world… I am not sure if any aspect what so ever qualifies as hunting in the traditional sense here.


 How are you in the position to comment on infrared night hunting unless you have experienced it? I have a great deal of experience at both day and night hunting. I used to kill 60+ feral hogs every year (during the day) on Fort Benning between 2000-2005 with a bow or rifle. But I never killed more than 77 in a year hunting 125-150 days annually. I now kill 300+ using infrared equipment while hunting less than 90 nights annually. It is purely a matter of efficiency. 

EVERY aspect of infrared night hunting for feral hogs mirrors traditional spot and stalk day hunting. The only difference is the optics. Day hunting requires a traditional binocular and traditional rifle scope. Night hunting requires an infrared binocular and infrared rifle scope. Both methods require hunters to travel and scan hundreds of acres to locate their targets. Both methods monitor wind direction and terrain to stalk close enough to execute the shot. Both methods experience changes in wind direction and missed shots. Same skill sets apply to both methods. What is the difference?



olcowman said:


> Follow the links and look at the posted pics of hogs piled up like cord wood with a little suckling pig or two thrown out front where the camera will be sure and not miss it.


 I don’t understand the problem here. Feral hogs are an invasive species with no closed season and no bag limit. The method used to harvest them is legal according to the Georgia hunting regulation. The animals are professionally displayed with very little blood and photographed in a natural setting. 

The juvenile pigs are placed in the picture for educational purposes. It gives me the opportunity to discuss population control with the television audience. Feral hogs reach sexual maturity at 6-8 months old and give birth at 10-12 months since their gestation period is 114 days (3 months, 3 weeks, 3 days). In Georgia, sows will have two litters every year. No other species is capable of producing multiple large litters every year starting at such an early age.

I’ve never seen you post any negative comments about other hunter’s hogs hanging from the rafters or piled in the back of a pick-up truck. What is really the problem? Maybe your morals only allow hunters to harvest one or two hogs at a time. 


olcowman said:


> Watch the vids, and imagine this same scenario without the obvious trained marksmen. Those amazing shots at hogs running wide open aint going to be nearly as effective with Joe Blow behind the trigger.


 Video media to the public is always a legitimate concern. Fortunately, I am the only person in the United States filming thermal footage at this time. Even the Discovery Channel and the Military Channel come to me for thermal video. It will be very easy to control what the public views. We have decided to include daytime crop damage footage and farmer interviews in our future YouTube videos and television shows. This will ensure non-hunters are properly educated and understand why these methods are necessary.



olcowman said:


> The hunting community as a whole really needs to be prepared to answer the non hunting's public perception, when certain groups air these tidbits with their own spin on it…


 I’m not worried at all about the animal rights groups because most of them understand feral hogs are an invasive species and are not considered wildlife or game animals in most states. I’m more worried about hunters who put their own moral spin on it without any hands-on experience. I’m more worried about hunters who don’t understand their role as management tools and try applying the same rules to feral hogs as they do to legal game species like deer and elk.



olcowman said:


> I have never and will never spend any of my own money in pursuit of or in support of any such practice, carried out in a kill for profit manner.


 Oh… now I get it. You don’t have a problem with just me. You have a problem with all outfitters. You have much higher morals than the hunters on this forum who book Illinois deer hunts and Colorado elk hunts with an outfitter. It is not illegal, but it is still a crime to you because it is carried out in a “kill for profit” manner. 



olcowman said:


> I wish some restraint could be used in the posting of this type of thing although I realize you are trying to make a sale.


 Take a closer look at who posted the video thread and you will find it was not me. I do not know the person who posted our videos, but I’m happy they did. It gave me the chance to have this intelligent conversation with you. 
I don’t know if you and I will ever agree on any of the above topics because my covenant is the Georgia Department of Natural Resources Hunting Regulation and you only follow your morals. You are the guy driving in the left lane ten miles below the speed limit shaking his fist at everybody passing him on the right. 

---JAGER


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## Ol' Gobblero (Jul 5, 2008)

Very well stated Jager.  It is people like you, with your perspective on the entire hunting experience and the necessary management practices, that will ultimately save our heritage of hunting.


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## sghoghunter (Jul 6, 2008)

Ol'gobblero what bout the list you were gonna get me?


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## olcowman (Jul 7, 2008)

Well I can't really respond to that entire post at this time, except to defend my own morals, and you are way off base here. One specific item, I stated I would not participate in "any such practice, carried out in a kill for profit manner". I specifically meant the little deal you got going, not guided hunting in general.

I tried to be decent with my statements, and you kind of took a broad brush stroke and painted up some conclusions on your own. I hate to be the one that gets this thread closed, therefore I am refraining from any further comment, besides I see you are getting alot of practice defending yourself all over the web. 

I think I was pretty clear on the fact that I felt this business of yours has the potential to cause some problems within the hunting community. That maybe some consideration and forethought be given before somebody chimes in with a "your going to save our hunting heritage Mr Jager" comment.(I hope he is own your staff?) 

I am sorry if I offended you by not jumping on your bandwagon after viewing your grisly web page or reading all the research figures you got from Auburn. I read it all, watched the vid, watch your leap into the cyber-world and then offered my opinion in a restrained manner. I didn't call you a slobbish, unethical, opportunistic carpetbagger trying to garner some support from hunters by justifying the end results with a bunch of inconsistent data from one study conducted in a limited environment. I did not say that, but some other folks around the web have, and that was nearly verbatum.

I said you offer a needed service to farmers, and I didn't feel it was consistent with what I consider hunting. I stated it could be reflected back on the sport in a negative manner due to some of the material being circulated. And now you take it upon yourself to question my moral compass? Even accuse me of being a bad driver? Dang, thats poor sportmanship right there. My morals aren't really being questioned here though are they?

By the way, I am on Ft Benning everyday and have been for the last 2+ years. Where exactly is this big problem with over population of feral hogs and just what crops are the US Army having to protect with some extreme prejudice?


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## olcowman (Jul 7, 2008)

Can anyone find any hard numbers posted by state Ag Dept concerning actual loss reported due to feral swine. I tried, even called Dr Black, and he suggested that it may not be available targeting a specific species, but did comment that it really hasn't been a big issue except in a few isolated instances. Someone keeps posting $800 million a year nationwide, is that for only hogs? or are other crop damaging critters included? Either way, if one would take the time and compile the actual income generated in the US through the farming sector of the ag industry, well $800M just aint alot of money. I find it amusing that a "National Conference" would be in order solely to discuss the evils of feral hogs, when the annual losses per year caused fire ants, cogon grass, pine beetles, honey bee weevils, chinese privet, etc., just pick your favorite as any one of the a fore mentioned would dwarf the feral hog estimate by hundreds of millions of dollars.

I have been to Ag field days, livestock shows, farming expos, county fairs, you name it, all over North America and cannot ever remember any special events or meetings set aside solely to discuss the act of damage to crops/property due to feral hogs.

I am just curious about what the actual impact really is, as it is not a easily available thing to find and up until Mr Jager appeared I didn't even realize that pigs was in a race with kudzu to take over our state? If the majority really thinks this is the best thing to happen to hunting ever, and that this sort of business is something we should all blindly endorse and accept without question...I would suggest that person search some other areas of the www, where actual facts and open debate are displayed without prejudicial interference via forum monitoring. If this is the future of hunting, then I will gladly end a generations old tradition with respect to both the quarry and the sport itself. I had rather do that than embarress myself by buying into some of the notions we are having shoved down our throats.


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## Rexter (Jul 7, 2008)

*Varmints, vermin, all the same*

Hogs are varmints, just like woodchucks and coyotes. You run across hogs while hunting the other two while in the hills, you drop 'em. Pretty easy targets in a field. If they would open some of these areas up for taking them as the varmints they are, the hog count would definitely go down. Catching them live makes no sense, drop 'em and let the other critters have a feast - might even take out a few coyotes if you watch the kill site.


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## hevishot (Jul 7, 2008)

keep hittin' 'em with the facts Jager...maybe the lightbulb will go off...but I doubt it.


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## JAGER (Jul 7, 2008)

buckbacks said:


> I think the personal bashing of jager is over with but none of us will totally understand his true reasons for being here.


My primary interest for being here is to encourage Georgia hunters to do what is right for the future of both agriculture and our sport, before it is too late. There is no reason why Georgia shouldn't set the standard for other states to follow without implementing state/Federal legislation or other USDA involvement. 



buckbacks said:


> I think there maybe be a few core areas that need some help from him but not on a statewide level.


 I never stated feral hogs were a statewide problem. The core areas in the state need help from HUNTERS, not me.



buckbacks said:


> Also comparing Ga to kansas and nebraska is off as well. they have 1,000 plus acre fields all over.


 The reference to Kansas and Nebraska has nothing at all to do with acreage. The reference was an example of two states who have exercised legislation to resolve their feral hog problem instead of trusting the hunting community.



olcowman said:


> I have been to Ag field days, livestock shows, farming expos, county fairs, you name it, all over North America and cannot ever remember any special events or meetings set aside solely to discuss the act of damage to crops/property due to feral hogs.


I have attended both the 2006 and 2008 National Conferences on Feral Hogs as well as the 2007 Wildlife Damage Management Conference. I have also attended both the 2006 and 2007 Georgia Farm Bureau Conventions and held meetings with both the GA Corn and Peanut Commodity Advisory Committees. I'm on the phone every week with various State Directors from the Department of Agriculture as part of my business. 

What other qualifications would you like me to have before I post information about what is happening around the Nation and in our state on the topic of feral hog control?



olcowman said:


> I am just curious about what the actual impact really is, as it is not a easily available thing to find and up until Mr Jager appeared I didn't even realize that pigs was in a race with kudzu to take over our state? ...I would suggest that a person search some other areas of the www, where actual facts and open debate are displayed without prejudicial interference via forum monitoring.


 Knock yourself out. I'll even point you in the right direction. 

This issue of "Human-Wildlife Conflicts" focuses on the management of feral hogs in the United States. "Human-Wildlife Conflicts" is a peer-reviewed journal published two times a year by the Jack H. Berryman Institute. http://www.berrymaninstitute.org/hwc_journal/ver001num002/2007vol01num02_toc[1].html

Internet Center for Wildlife Damage Management
School of Natural Resources
University of Nebraska-Lincoln
414 Hardin Hall 
Lincoln, NE 68583-0974 U.S.A.

http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/q...&sortby=publication_date=descending&x_start=1



olcowman said:


> Can anyone find any hard numbers posted by state Ag Dept concerning actual loss reported due to feral swine?


 You won't find any hard numbers. The Georgia Crop Insurance providers will not track feral hog crop damage because they cannot pay claims against nuisance wildlife. GA crop damage claims are only paid against natural disasters ie. wind, flood, drought, hail, etc.

Texas AgriLife Extension Service estimates that statewide annual economic damage caused by feral hogs is $51.7 million. In 2006-07 the Texas Department of Agriculture funded a Pilot Project through Extension to provide technical assistance to landowners at three pilot sites, while educational events for other landowners where conducted statewide.  Results from the Pilot Project indicate that over 3,000 feral hogs were removed and landowners/agricultural producers saved nearly $3 million from implementation of this project.

For the FY 2008-2009 biennium, TDA was appropriated $1 million for a two-year grant program to fund a long-term statewide feral hog abatement strategy.  A project to implement innovative, sustainable integrated pest management strategies for controlling and reducing feral hog populations will soon be implemented.

---JAGER


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## JAGER (Jul 7, 2008)

olcowman said:


> One specific item, I stated I would not participate in "any such practice, carried out in a kill for profit manner". I specifically meant the little deal you got going, not guided hunting in general.



My hunts are guided spot and stalk. What is the difference between what I do and "guided hunting in general"?



olcowman said:


> It is legal removal of an undesirable variable within an agricultural enterprise utilizing hi-tech equipment in the hands of any individuals willing to pay a preset amount of money to participate. Does that sound like hunting to anyone?


You just described harvesting a deer with a scope  and using the services of a guide. Sounds like hunting to me.

Which one is illegal to you? Hunting deer, using a scope or using a guide?



olcowman said:


> If this is the future of hunting, then I will gladly end a generations old tradition with respect to both the quarry and the sport itself.


Do you need CliffsNotes? The purpose of this thread is to ask Georgia hog hunters to consider improvement in three areas.   1) Perform a better job of policing ourselves as hunters and displaying our image to the public. 2) Harvest more hogs and stop indicating to the public we are trying to preserve them. 3) Develop better working relationships with farmers and landowners. 

If you were legitimately concerned about a “generations old tradition”, you would agree these three things would help improve our situation. But you are too busy causing your "A little rebellion is good for the soul" Thomas Jefferson antics. 

---JAGER


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## Public Land Prowler (Jul 7, 2008)

olcowman said:


> I didn't even realize that pigs was in a race with kudzu to take over our state?


LOL... 



We're not talking about texas here.We are talking about Georgia.Texas and florida have the highest population of hogs.Texas claimed 4.3 times as much federal assistance for crop loss from 2000 to 2008.Yes I understand that is only the  Federal part.But If they claim more loss on average than georgia you can't compare the hog induced loss from texas with georgia.

http://www.usaspending.gov/faads/fa...type=a&database=faads&cfda_program_num=10.073


Lets use some statistics from georgia.I found a chart that states that on average the top 2 causes for crop loss are HEAT/DROUGHT and TOO MUCH MOISTURE.

Followed by wind/hurricanes,cold/frost,and disease..The remaining 3-5% is caused by other factors including hogs/deer.




Alot of the farmers I know have NO hog problems.I will admit the ones who do have hog problems have alot of hog problems.A few dogs or one of those nice baiting/night hunting permits will solve the problem.It won't take you shooting many of the hogs to break them for short periods..and sometimes long periods.

It's only as big of a problem as you want to make it.


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## gnarlyone (Jul 7, 2008)

*Jager...*

Man to man or hunter to hunter..whatever.....do you ever consider the opinions of the very involved people(hog hunters) that respond to your threads where you ask for OPINIONS? You know as well as i do that sometimes the people that carry the mail know more about the routes than map quest does. I haven't once made up anything i've stated or experienced. If real life,real times progress is going to made,Texas data....U.S. data, means very little when it comes to Georgia.
I don't have a problem with what you do with the TI....As much as i love dogg'n ,A hog is the property of the landowner and if he wants them gone..so be it. I do think you use the "Boo Game" and "Scare Tactics" when you present your stand to the guys with the nice suits. There are none of the supporters of your ideas that spend as much time in the woods with hogs as most of the people who have disputed(from experience) some of the far fetched claims from rolling over Texas and others into what is in Georgia. It's a sales pitch and you know it....that's fine for you but it steps on the toes of a lot of people that don't feel the same way you do...it causes people to get defensive just like they've done here...can you blame them?...hunters/gunmen are of a special breed,that's why we are we are so strong.No matter how you try to compare Texas to Georgia...it is different...i've watched this hog thing for 25 years and it's done about all it's going to do. I've heard you are a great guy and i do truly believe it.....Just keep an open mind & consider that some of the statements from some of the very experienced woodsmen are very credible facts that consider a great amount of consideration. 90% of the "Jager Bandwagon" chime in without a clue .
Georgia needs what it has now...a legal opportunity that allows everybody to harvest,kill,catch, shoot...hogs in whatever fashion they choose and dispose of them how ever they feel necessary. That's about as wide open as the law can get.......make hunters aware of what you "THINK" is on the horizon and what you advise them to do....leave the gov. out of it and i think you will find that is the first step in all of us getting on the same page.


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## SELFBOW (Jul 7, 2008)

I agree with you Jager on what you last said. We need to better police ourselves. I stated in another thread, if a club has problems with hogs and the members aren't "fixing" it. Well it's time for some new members.

I don't see how we are "preserving" them. I do think if you are in an area with a problem to harvest more but that is not everywhere and the "right" people can fix that.(even you if necessary)Lots of hogs are killed. If we could catch bucks and release them we certainly would do so as well. That aspect is no different than many fisherman praticing "catch and release" for the betterment of all.

and on "better relationships" it will take a "new batch" of hunters to fix that not the ones that destroyed it.

Still the biggest problem most of us have if with thermal imaging being considered hunting. you dont understand that because "suits" made that rule. I guarantee if "us" hunters had a say your method would be outlawed. JMO.


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## JAGER (Jul 7, 2008)

Public Land Prowler said:


> Lets use some statistics from georgia.I found a chart that states that on average the top 2 causes for crop loss are HEAT/DROUGHT and TOO MUCH MOISTURE.
> 
> Followed by wind/hurricanes,cold/frost,and disease..The remaining 3-5% is caused by other factors including hogs/deer.



Call a crop insurance salesman and ask them if they ever track nuisance wildlife numbers. The answer is no because they cannot pay claims for nuisance wildlife. Your data is from crop damage claims paid.

The remaining 3-5% is other crop insurance claims period. Not hogs and deer. We do not know what this number or percentage actually is because the insurance industry does not track hog and deer damage at all.

---JAGER


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## olcowman (Jul 7, 2008)

Jager thank you for all the links to the data above, many of which I have seen or came across similiar conclusions in my involvement in both the ag industry and recreational hunting. There is some mighty strong arguments represented regarding the use of dogs for hunting the hogs and a few even detail the tremendous benefit gained from the harassement/stress factor gained from hunting the invasive swine.

And as we all pretty much knew all along, although I am sure you might have surprised some of the youngsters, traditional hunting as a rule has very little impact on hog populations. A few impact areas in various publications purposely included public wma's as either control variables or part of the research itself to obtain data concerning hunter success rates and hunting method evaluation, comfort/escape/non effected zone study, a few scattered opinions gathered from field studies relating to wildlife food plots/feral hogs and the possible further economical implications associated with hunters/lease holders and the actual vs implied  damage attributed to wild pigs.

Well yes sir, they really talk about hunting wild hogs, both the good and bad, but then guess what...they quit talking about hunting all together and switch to an entirely different subject that uses words like eradication, invasive species lethal management techniques, trapping, snare sets, spot lighting, and infra-red are all tools mentioned for managing feral swine. They don't even call the feller holding the gun a hunter, he is referred to as a shooter or method of lethal management. 

I hope some of this is sinking in, and I hope I aint got to go back up here line by line and explain everything. It is real simple and it is just not limited to the uneducated fringe of the hunting community, as the material you use in your own inane, selfless attempt at promoting your business and trying to bully distractors, states the same principals. This aint just something I set around and made up, or any attempt to limit the success of your enterprise, it is just the facts and I am still in awe that anyone would argue against what is so plainly visible in black and white print on the material you yourself present.

Congrats on all your recognition and serious phone calls, and I hope they get you alot of speaking engagements up north or way out west. I am not sure just who is your biggest push here in our state as in one post you beam about your close relationship with the Dept of Ag and then a little later lets us in own your key involvement with our state's wildlife resources group, which one is actually condoning this practice and policing your activities? I know from experience they don't really play to good together sometimes, so you may be playing both sides, kind of like this doggers vs land managers vs still hunters stunt you are pulling off here and other web sites.

Last couple of items before I let go...I was familiar with the fact that no conclusive statistical data exists, concerning the actual impact of wildlife within the ag industry in general. Different segments within their ranks periodically release figures (often with very little factual data) or publicize estimates that are commonly skewed to some extent to reflect positively in that segments favor or to cast a brighter spotlight on an area of concern among it's members. Not to mention that it is often impossible to discern damage to property caused by different species of animals or to accurately identify differences in areas effected by weather events, domesticated animals, human behaviour, etc. Well the numbers just aint that scary to begin with when you consider the monetary impact of the industry has a whole, then when you find out they are questionable to say the least, big yawn here.

Almost done, Jager, that is the third time I got some snide comment about my Jefferson quote. Do you know who Thomas Jefferson was, try looking him up on Wikepedia and carefully read his bio and accomplishments. Then, hold on, read em one more time cause you need to be able to  get this straight, as I have no idea what you are trying to suggest with these remarks, unless you are somehow involved in the communist party you will realize Mr Jefferson's statement was meant to energize the common man against acts of tyranny and a wide spread attempt to impose less than acceptable ideals by those individuals whom imagined themselves on a level far above the exististence of commoners. When these suppressors took it to the next level of attrition, and upset the balance of morals and levels of integrity that these people had traditionally worked hard and died early to obtain, well men like Jefferson were the inspiration and the leaders that these men, soon to be called Americans, rallied around and fanned the flames of a great revolution that impacts us still today. 

Your welcome in advance for the history lesson, and thank you for helping me find some links to what I have been trying to point out all along. Now that was a decent thing to do.


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## JAGER (Jul 7, 2008)

Gnarlyone,

We have never met, but I have a tremendous amount of respect for you as a person and what you do for the farming community. I appreciate your wisdom and experience. I listen to your every word because deep down I know we both want the exact same thing for Georgia hog hunting.  



gnarlyone said:


> Georgia needs what it has now...a legal opportunity that allows everybody to harvest, kill, catch and shoot hogs in whatever fashion they choose and dispose of them how ever they feel necessary.


 My feelings exactly. I'm just trying to ensure it remains this way.



gnarlyone said:


> ...make hunters aware of what you "THINK" is on the horizon and what you advise them to do... leave the gov. out of it and i think you will find that is the first step in all of us getting on the same page.


 I'll listen to your advice and back off a little bit. I'm still learning how to be a civilian. 

Don't be surprised if I come to you for input on some important Georgia issues. I may need to put your 25 years of wisdom and experience to use.

Thanks, ---JAGER


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## Public Land Prowler (Jul 7, 2008)

The point is that there are more natural causes for loss of crops than there are crops loss by damage from hogs.That can not be denied.


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## JAGER (Jul 7, 2008)

olcowman said:


> ... Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah...


Olcowman, You have written 2,608 words in this thread to lead everyone on some wild goose chase because you don’t consider killing feral hogs at night with an infrared scope “hunting”. You may astound and enlighten everyone else reading your posts with all the eloquent words you wish, but you don’t fool me. 

Bottom line- This is ALL about YOUR definition of hunting.

Please explain to everyone how ‘spot and stalk’ hunting hogs at night differs from ‘spot and stalk’ hunting hogs in the daytime when the only difference is the optics. The same exact skill sets apply to both methods. What is the difference other than the optics?

Convince me how it is immoral, unethical or illegal in 250 words or less. 

---JAGER


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## SELFBOW (Jul 7, 2008)

you use the same methods to kill people. WHY? because in the dark with night optics your chance of success has greatly increased. When you put all the odds in your favor it should become all three.


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## GSURugger (Jul 7, 2008)

buckbacks said:


> you use the same methods to kill people. WHY? because in the dark with night optics your chance of success has greatly increased. When you put all the odds in your favor it should become all three.



im sure if hadgie hiding in a sand dune could smell the "infidel" sneaking up on him he would do what he could to hide


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## JAGER (Jul 7, 2008)

buckbacks said:


> you use the same methods to kill people. WHY? because in the dark with night optics your chance of success has greatly increased. When you put all the odds in your favor it should become all three.



Your chances only increase at night because the hogs are feeding instead of bedded down in the swamp. When you stalk a group of hogs in the daylight, do you use terrain and vegetation to "hide" your outline? Yes. 

Does the animal have any idea you are there until you release your bow or pull the trigger? No. Or do you say hey piggy-piggy and fire a warning shot first to let them know you are there? No. 

Like I said, "spot and stalk" is exactly the same; day or night. The first uses a Leupold 3x9 scope and the other an infrared scope.

---JAGER


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## SELFBOW (Jul 7, 2008)

you still dont get it. The majority of the "true hunting" public views what you are doing as a means of pest control not hunting regardless of what terms are written into law.
You are walking a fine line right now and pushing many away from you and your methods. It may be easy for you to take a dumb city slicker out and fool him into thinking he has done something by shooting a hog at night with thermal but you are not gonna be able to pass that on all these South Ga boys around here or even me and I'm from SC.

What you do in the day and night are 2 completely different things, dont try to compare them. you know they are different.


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## Racor (Jul 8, 2008)

JAGER said:


> Like I said, "spot and stalk" is exactly the same; day or night. The first uses a Leupold 3x9 scope and the other an infrared scope.
> ---JAGER



Using IR technology is not the same as using visible light technology. They are two different methods of obtaining images of your target.

The "typical off-the-shelf Leupold scope" gathers natural light reflected off an object and magnifies the image via clear or coated optics. This image is transmitted and magnified through the scope and imaged directly onto the user’s retina. Visible light must be at high enough intensity levels for the human eye to resolve images. This is why we have hunting hours typically set between Dawn and Dusk, humans can not see well in the low light conditions of night.

Infrared Technology gathers non-visible light (infrared) and “artificially” magnifies the light gathered to produce an image. The light is gathered via an optical element and then electronically intensified and resolved. This image can be viewed in real-time on a viewing screen, stored for later viewing or even transmitted to a remotely located screen. Infrared Technology replaces the poor biological ability of night vision found in humans with an artificial ability.

Using Infrared Technology allows the “user” the ability to use electronically or artificial means (via electronically generated images) to locate objects that the user would otherwise not be able to naturally locate.

To use Infrared technology in “hunting” would not be any different than using other electronic devices such as cell phones or “walkie-talkies”.

Using Infrared Technology in the “extermination” business is just a high-tech tool of the trade.

The method or time of day of physically approaching (stalking) game does not matter. The mechanism used to locate game and used in the aiming and firing of weapons at game is the questions at hand.

Note: The term “game” is used generically. I know wild hogs in Georgia are not “game” animals.


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## olcowman (Jul 8, 2008)

You are doing a heck of a job gathering support from within the ranks of hunters,what have you got now? A couple of youngsters you have promised to now consider really important sources of info and essentially the voices of the modern hunter. 

Just do a poll and quit embaressing yourself and insulting people's intelligence. See how many hunters would gladly call your method a great tool to finally sway the general public over to our way of thinking? See who would even want it mentioned in the same breath as hunting?

Ask how many non hunters are impressed and inspired with your grisly pics and vids currently circulating the web?  

Just how many hunters, biologists and wrd officers, have been impressed with your name dropping, reported attendance at some conferences and subsequent weekly phone calls you have concerning what? What kind of data do ya'll discuss? Where is conclusive evidence of your claims? What agencies and which individuals will publically laud your business as a positive image for hunting?Your links sure do not inspire anyone to join your attempt to wedge your business into a 200+ year old legacy of sportsmanship and respect for your quarry while pursuing the act of hunting.

And here is where you are having a hard time understanding that what you are proposing is not the pursuit of a game animal nor is it a harmonious blend of man and his dog (or dogs) in the age old tradition of out smart or out muscle, or sometimes miss out all together as they team up to not only put meat on the table but in some cases to compare and compete against others within their ranks. 

Hunting is not only an act you can read the definition of in a dictionary, it is often considered an art and certain aspects of hunting, when finely tuned or are practiced without modern weapons take on an almost mystical quality when these participants take to the field. The pleasure felt in indoctrinating a new generation to the sport and watching as they follow a well worn path to a stand that has cradled many a nervous youth in massive bows, is an experience I can only describe as spiritual in nature. The sound of a pack of hounds in hot pursuit, a pack that you can identify each individual's response and level of intensity without a second thought as the entire hunt plays out in your mind's eye in HD as they thunder along through the darkness. The images and sounds clear and predictable because generations of your kin have stood nearly in this same place with an ear cocked to the ancestors of these same dogs.

I have a  hard time finding any niche what so ever to inspire myself to think of the act of hunting as I know it, when helping a farmer financially, by killing a crap load of hogs in some dark field looking thru a high tech IR screen at the rate of $600 or so 4 hours out of my pocket? 
Your arguments against this have been either pointless and even turned against your own logic, or hateful when you got caught up in your own fantasy of converting the masses in support of your controversial association of an agriculture service carelessly joined to the coattails of the hunting community. All for the purpose of greed,with little regard to the impact of such an alliance to the sport of hunting,

Do me a favor, as you like to boast about all the important contacts you 'may have' ready to fully endorse your venture and publically voice their positive support, please post these people. Especially any hunting industry related companies that may be considering sponsoring you in anyway. I called one you threw out as a teaser, who I happen to know personally, and he thought he may have gotten one of your calls by mistake or seen something at an industry show once, but when I went into detail about your plans and existing pics, vids, ideas and responses posted here and elsewhere in an effort to somehow justify your wish to attach this sort of service, like a parasite I might add as it only for financial gain otherwise it would properly be associated with agriculture as that the industry it is proposed to be serving? He didn't believe such a thing was really going on and while patiently waiting a few moments he said "Okay what's the punchline, I'm really busy ...."

Go figure?


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## hogdawg (Jul 8, 2008)

JAGER said:


> Like I said, "spot and stalk" is exactly the same; day or night.
> ---JAGER


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## hevishot (Jul 8, 2008)

Thanks for the nasty, rediculous PM I just got from you, oldclown man. You are truely a class act and you seem to be pretty bitter and unappreciative of our soldiers too. Thats a real shame. Usually a fool will show himself as such and you sure did that........


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## Jim Thompson (Jul 8, 2008)

DEEEEEEPPPPPPP breaths


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## Rexter (Jul 8, 2008)

*Hogs, hogs, and more hogs...*

Alot of passion in this thread, let's analyze from the start. All would agree with the status of the animal:

_A non-native species that is destructive to agriculture, golf courses, and the survival of native species. The goal is to eradicate the feral hogs, all of them. They don't belong anywhere in the wild in the state of Georgia._

That is reality, but then things start breaking down and all the diffrent camps start emerging with their not so hidden agendas.

One group wants to eradicate hogs as a means of commerce and income. They want to eliminate some hogs, but not all of them, as their income would dry up. So they're in the "control" business and secretly want the catch and release groups to continue on supplying them with work.

One group feels that this is their sport and main source of entertainment and don't wany anyone to infringe upon or alter their good times or their sport/hunting. So though they want to harvest some hogs, they really don't want to eliminate them either. So this camp is in the "control" business as well.

One group likes to hunt the animals with dogs, catch them, and release them to into other areas to propogate the species and their favorite past-time or sport. They kind of help the first two groups out, even though they're operating illegally and deemed "bad boys" by the other interests so as to legitimize those agendas.

The last group doesn't care about the other groups and see's the animals as the invasive pests that they are. They don't have a big ongoing thread about any of this business, and basically follow the main premise of the animals status and shoot the things on sight. We don't hear much from them, and yet, they are the ones who are truly following the the designation or status of this animal to the letter.

So start at the start - the status of the animal. This thread is wandering all over the place


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## Racor (Jul 8, 2008)

Ok well I had some free time this morning and thought I'd do a couple of things.

1) Got a bunch of stuff done around the house!
2) Wanted to find out for myself if Night vision or IR Technology is legal in Georgia.

Well After getting things done around the house I contacted the Georgia DNR.

I wrote:


> I'm interested in the legalities of hunting at night with infrared scopes and spotting equipment.
> 
> In the 2008 DNR Regulations on page 8 under "General Hunting Regulations" it states:
> "LEGAL HOURS for hunting are 30 minutes before sunrise until 30 minutes after sunset, except that alligators, raccoons, opossums, foxes, coyotes, bobcats and feral hogs may be hunted at night. However, only battery powered lights not exceeding 6 volts (12 volts for alligators) or fuel type lanterns may be carried by hunters for locating these animals."
> ...


I sent this email with the hopes of using the quoted DNR Regulations passage and pointing out that IR or night vision optics are not "lights" but electronic devices to completely eliminate any gray areas. (I think it did).

I got this response:


> If the wildlife you are hunting may be legally hunted at night, such as the ones you listed, then using an infrared or other night vision scope would be considered legal equipment.
> 
> Hopefully this helps.
> 
> ...



So that answers my questions about IR Tech as being a legal tool of the hunter. According to this person it's legal to use. (I would not use it, but the GA DNR says its a legal hunting tool.)

Only thing left for this thread to beat on is how many hogs to kill.

I'm on the side of using restraint. Kill to control damage or for food. Don't kill them all.

Note: I removed the DNR's oficers name, number and email to protect them from unsolicited contacts.


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## Public Land Prowler (Jul 8, 2008)

JAGER said:


> Like I said, "spot and stalk" is exactly the same; day or night. The first uses a Leupold 3x9 scope and the other an infrared scope.
> 
> ---JAGER


No it's not.You can not walk brazenly across a bare dirt field in broad daylight to within close distances such as you do on your films...Unless your hogs are just that stupid.

It also looks like some type of sensor causes the crosshairs to darken up when you are on a spot of the hog with more body heat?Not sure what that is about but it does seem to improve the shot placement.


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## Hawg "Rooter" (Jul 8, 2008)

Ive kept quiet on this thread becuase I didnt want to "poke the bear" but I do have to say that I suport Olcowman and buckbacks on this one.


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## ejs1980 (Jul 8, 2008)

JAGER said:


> Like I said, "spot and stalk" is exactly the same; day or night. The first uses a Leupold 3x9 scope and the other an infrared scope.
> 
> ---JAGER



I have no problem with what you do. You said all the hogs are eaten I'm fine with that. I don't care what you call your service whether it's hunting or whatever. I did say it's not my thing but apparently it's yours and alot of others also. I do believe hogs are a problem where you hunt them. The quote above is a little off. Spot and stalk in the daytime is easing through a bottom using every piece of cover available looking back and being able to see the spot you were standing twenty minutes ago when you spotted a dark object ahead. Your crawling now occasionally looking up to see if you can identify the hog. Thirty minutes later you ease your head over some bushes and you either see a hog or it was just a stump keep trying. 


Your spot and stalk Is like the other  but as you ease into the edge of the field to look through the scope and see if you see any light bulbs shining for the world to see. It would be like a hog painted blaze orange and trying to hide in a field in the daytime.

I'm not going to research your post for the one about fort benning so these aren't exact figuresbut wasn't something like you killed something like 70 deer a year in around 150 days of hunting and now your killing in the neighborhood of 300 in 90 nights of hunting say what you want to but you can't post these numbers one day and compare it to a daytime spot and stalk the next. All you have to fool is the hogs nose at night and that's not allways necessary as most animals feel secure in the darkness. Whether you call it ti hunting tactical hunting boar-war or just hunting it doesn't matter to me . To each his own right. Just don't say they are the same thing.


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## Public Land Prowler (Jul 8, 2008)

LOL...Yeah ejs1980 it is what it is.It is legal,so it's all good.It is hog assassination.



> Main Entry: as·sas·si·nate
> Pronunciation: \É™-Ëˆsa-sÉ™-ËŒnÄ�t\
> Function: transitive verb
> Inflected Form(s): as·sas·si·nat·ed; as·sas·si·nat·ing
> ...



Very effective indeed.But don't blow smoke that it is as hard as regular hunting.During the day while stalking hogs have a little better chance of using their colors to blend in with surroundings.With IR they glow  white.

It is not the same or you would be killing 300 of them in the daylight,and staying home at night with your family(assuming).


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## olcowman (Jul 8, 2008)

hevishot said:


> Thanks for the nasty, rediculous PM I just got from you, oldclown man. You are truely a class act and you seem to be pretty bitter and unappreciative of our soldiers too. Thats a real shame. Usually a fool will show himself as such and you sure did that........



Thank goodness I got you to follow me around and remind me of how I feel down deep in my dark heart or hearts. Yeah, I got a little hot after being chased around and questioned about my intelligence, motives and intestinal fortitude, which upon further reading of your history on the web AJ (after Jager) I realized that is your M.O. and perhaps the apex of your ability to converse intelligently about any topic whatsoever. 

Didn't mean to be so hard on you, I was brought up better than that and was taught to look past peoples shortcomings and to be tolerant of special needs types. But I'd still be careful about calling someone unsupportive (unpatriotic?) when you aint got the mechanics or capacity to make such an evaluation, unless of course it is done anonamously and under the protection of a forum. Otherwise you might hit a real sore spot that could lead to a set of unfortunate consequences being cast your way, as questioning one's patriatism is akin to calling out somebody's mama!

I am 100% over the whole Jager brouhaha, and hope that everyone read the entire thread and realized that there exist some legitimate concerns when something like this is thrust into the hunting community and seemingly promoted to some degree within our own ranks.

I never said it was evil (although I think I have read something about this Jager guy once, in a booked called Revelations, maybe?) I did agree it was very effecient in accomplishing it's goals. I also did not berate anyone for trying to make a dollar from this practice. All I did was question the image that would be portrayed based on the vids and pics currently on the web, and then did confirm my opinion and express the probable implications if this was seen as an acceptable and widely supported practice among those who participate in traditional hunting methods.

Instead of addressing my posts or offering some thoughtful counter prose, I was mostly called out for being close minded, trouble making, dim witted, uncooperative and a danger to the native flora and fauna of GA who would not conform to or accept any aspect of game management based on my ingrained, ill conceived, out dated concepts regarding pursuit of game and the aura of fair chase.

Well that answered my concerns and really exposed the true intentions of the individual behind all the hype. I should have quit sooner and went on somewhere else to talk about best catfish holes or read about the latest black panther sightings or something.


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## capt stan (Jul 9, 2008)

Guys don't get THERMAL and IR mixed up.......... It seems that the two are blending here

IR is old technogly it gathers available  reflective light and that allows the target to be seen. If it's real dark(no moon foggy, heavy woods ect) it ain't worth a crap.But you can illuminate the target with a low light source(pen light/redlens light) and it's just like spotlighting something with 100,000 candle power with out giving off all the light.

Thermal reads the heat signature of a target. You can normally go white hot or black on to look thru the viewer and Identify your targets. You can see tracks in the snow hours later due to the heat signature still in it. Tire tracks across the ground or  in the snow ect. 

These are military items  used on the battle field to kill with. I was glad I had them in the desert and ACHMED and his cronies didn't.


I can understand the "interest" some folks have to these as we see this stuff in the movies and can't "play" with it...how "cool" it is ect. I understand that .....But if you ever had any experiance with it at all you would really understand it's use and the advantage it gives you. As I said earlier, as a control tool to be used I understand it100%

But please don't confuese it with Hunting..it's Really taking advantage of an animals limitations to protect itself in it's natural enviroment. It's just killing..nothing more.


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## Mark Thompson (Jul 9, 2008)

Just hunt however you want to!


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## Parker Phoenix (Jul 9, 2008)

Hogs are not game animals, they are an invasive species. I kill every one I can, whenever I can. The woods would be better off with out them. Kill em' all, is what my farmer buddies tell me.


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## Rexter (Jul 10, 2008)

*Hogs*

Amen Parker Pheonix


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## chambers270 (Jul 10, 2008)

capt stan said:


> I can understand the "interest" some folks have to these as we see this stuff in the movies and can't "play" with it...how "cool" it is ect. I understand that .....But if you ever had any experiance with it at all you would really understand it's use and the advantage it gives you. As I said earlier, as a control tool to be used I understand it100%
> 
> But please don't confuese it with Hunting..it's Really taking advantage of an animals limitations to protect itself in it's natural enviroment. It's just killing..nothing more.



I agree with Stan it is a huge advantage and by no means a type of hunting.

I just dont understand the logic behind "its not a game animal" so that makes it alright to pile up and leave to rot? If people eat it, (which many people eat pork) at least be sportsman enough to clean it and give it away.

For all of you "wipe them out because they are non game animals" if they all of a sudden were included as a game animal next year does that change your mind? Or if deer were somehow considered a non game animal next year that means I should shoot 50 and leave them to rot?

Just because it is legal does not by any means make it right.

Chris


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## firefighterusa (Jul 10, 2008)

as usual jager you are shooting them down with facts and they dont even realize it.


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## Hawg "Rooter" (Jul 10, 2008)

firefighter I can see where your nose is stuck!


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## gigem (Jul 10, 2008)

I hunted last night , caught 1 of 3 hogs that i saw! I saw close to 50 deer last night. But GOD slipped up and put hogs on this green earth!Right before he did deer. There was not a deer track in MACON CO. Until the 60s,hogs were the only things were hunted around here!So you talk about non native species.AND SORRY ON PAPER ,THE HOG BIRTH IS VERY INCORRECT,I RAISE HOGS YEAR ROUND, I just had 3 litters of 2 and 1 of 6 and 2 of the 6 are alive,The pigs are being picked off by predation.And we trap !!!!!!!!!!


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## ejs1980 (Jul 10, 2008)

firefighterusa said:


> as usual jager you are shooting them down with facts and they dont even realize it.



De Soto introduced hogs into Florida in 1593. They were first introduced in california in about 1720. Take those "facts" and do the math. Wild hogs haven't taken over the world yet. I have no problem with wat certain people do to kill hogs. The fact is that he's stating facts about other places and giving his personal opinion on what he thinks GA or the USDA will do here in the future. I'n not saying it's not possible. When I was growing up I never thought we would be hiring sharpshooters to kill deer in parks or neighborhoods but they are. The said facts are scare tactics so everyone will think his service is necessary. A tactic that works well and used often by spokespeople for the military. Doesn't work to well on most hunters because we know everything(just ask my wife) . Add that with comparing night hunting with thermal imaging to daytime spot and stalk and something is up. Then throw in he is finishing his obligation to the Military this year at the olympics. Sounds to me like someone is trying to add to his clientell due to his extra free time. I have nothing against someone doing something they enjoy and making good money doing it. It's legal go for it. Looking at the videos it's probably as close as any civilian can come to a midnight assault on a small village. Heck it looks like fun, but it doesn't look anything like spot and stalk in the daytime. When people ask me which I like better bow hunting or hog doggin I tell them It can't be compared. Two totally different things. When I bowhunt I'm trying to become one with nature this is my alone time to think about things in this high paced world and slow it down. When I'm successful the feeling cannot be described. When I dog hunt I'm having a good time with friends. It's exciting and the closeness and trust between you and your dogs when they catch a hog is also great. Your succesful alot more often but each game taken isn't as fulfilling as with a bow. I enjoy each of them alot but in two totally different ways. To compare one to the other I feel is like comparing flyfishing a creek to seining a pond. So is thermal imaging. I feel they should not be compared but then Again I'm not trying to sell it. Some people here feel thats it's wrong and shouldn't be legal. It is illegal in some states. Should we assume that they'll outlaw it in ga no but thats how some of the "facts" stated above are justified. Other people here are scared that it will be compared to their type of hunting by the anti's. Then certain people making post on here saying they're the same feeds the fear causing them to lash out at those they feel are endangering their way of life. Other's like me don't care what you do as long as it's legal. We just want you to call it what is. I'm not going to down you by stating it's not hunting but it shouldn't be compared to other types. It's an exciting experience like no other I'm sure. Key phrase being "like no other". I have stood up for you on other threads before and may again on others but I can't stand behind someone making false statements that only look like "facts" to those that either haven't a clue or just want so bad to see you succeed that they are too blind to see what is obvious to others.


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## Public Land Prowler (Jul 10, 2008)

LOL...Even serial killers get love letters in prison on death row from women they have never seen...

I don't care what someone does as long as it is legal,and no meat is wasted...But don't blow smoke..It is what it is...a very very efficient means of erradication nothing more or nothing less.The only skills involved are shooting skills...looks like fun if you are just interested in pulling a trigger.



			
				ejs1980 said:
			
		

> Looking at the videos it's probably as close as any civilian can come to a midnight assault on a small village.


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## gigem (Jul 10, 2008)

REALIZE WHAT ROY!We aint talking about slop hogs that is raised on a farm!


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## reelblue1 (Jul 10, 2008)

QUOTE=Parker Phoenix;2352560]Hogs are not game animals, they are an invasive species. I kill every one I can, whenever I can. The woods would be better off with out them. Kill em' all, is what my farmer buddies tell me.[/QUOTE]

This is the same attitude the IslamoFacsists have towards Americans. You see how cowardly they took down 2 towers and damaged the Pentagon don't you PP ? The Muslims say kill all Americans,let Allah sort them out.   Well by god if you have to use a fancy night vision scope or IR to hunt at night with, then that only speaks to your inability to do it in a sporting manner in the daytime.  To those of you who think hogs are Non-game, what does that designation really mean, NOT a Thing, when it comes to slaughtering them for no other reason than annihilation. 
 I wish they would designate all of these useless deer that really wipe out the crops, as non game. Then again, that would not matter to me, as I cannot morally or ethically kill just for the sake of killing.  if you believe for one minute you are somehow uniting or helping hunters, by coming on here trying to substantiate a self proclaimed crisis you are bad mistaken. I take issue  calling yourself a hunter, if night hunting with NVG,thermal imaging, and/or IR is the only way you can get it done.   Is that hunting? It usually takes me less than an hour of my time to go in the swamp and down a good eating size hog. You either have what it takes or you circumvent the whole concept, of hunting. You have definetly demonstrated your inability to ethically kill a hog and try to support it with hooplah from TX & NE. Your day will come as someone from PETA will surely be on your trail.  Let's see how long your unethical hunting methods last then. You see when you pee off the right people, you will get your desired reaction.  Happy Hunting Night Ranger


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## firefighterusa (Jul 11, 2008)

reelblue1 said:


> QUOTE=Parker Phoenix;2352560]Hogs are not game animals, they are an invasive species. I kill every one I can, whenever I can. The woods would be better off with out them. Kill em' all, is what my farmer buddies tell me.



This is the same attitude the IslamoFacsists have towards Americans. You see how cowardly they took down 2 towers and damaged the Pentagon don't you PP ? The Muslims say kill all Americans,let Allah sort them out.   Well by god if you have to use a fancy night vision scope or IR to hunt at night with, then that only speaks to your inability to do it in a sporting manner in the daytime.  To those of you who think hogs are Non-game, what does that designation really mean, NOT a Thing, when it comes to slaughtering them for no other reason than annihilation. 
 I wish they would designate all of these useless deer that really wipe out the crops, as non game. Then again, that would not matter to me, as I cannot morally or ethically kill just for the sake of killing.  if you believe for one minute you are somehow uniting or helping hunters, by coming on here trying to substantiate a self proclaimed crisis you are bad mistaken. I take issue  calling yourself a hunter, if night hunting with NVG,thermal imaging, and/or IR is the only way you can get it done.   Is that hunting? It usually takes me less than an hour of my time to go in the swamp and down a good eating size hog. You either have what it takes or you circumvent the whole concept, of hunting. You have definetly demonstrated your inability to ethically kill a hog and try to support it with hooplah from TX & NE. Your day will come as someone from PETA will surely be on your trail.  Let's see how long your unethical hunting methods last then. You see when you pee off the right people, you will get your desired reaction.  Happy Hunting Night Ranger[/QUOTE]

 you have got to be kidding . i cant believe you are even going there!!!!


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## JAGER (Jul 12, 2008)

The purpose of this thread was to ask Georgia hog hunters to consider improvement in three areas. As usual, eight days and 75 posts later, we have not discussed these issues at all. It started off great. “EJS1980” made a recommendation that hunters should spend more time at co-op and ag meetings trying to put a positive image in the minds of the farmers and landowners. Then it somehow became an ethical hunting debate between traditional hunters, dog hunters and eradication supporters. 

I’m not surprised it turned into an infrared technology- legal vs. ethical discussion. No matter what topic I post, it always ends the same. The last five threads I have posted without “dogs” in the title have been very popular with 1500+ views each. I suppose some hunters enjoy reading the controversy. Some are worried that infrared technology will somehow make their sport obsolete. Some are legitimately interested in new methods and equipment to help solve the problem. Others wish to ensure the words nocturnal hog control and hunting are not mentioned in the same sentence. 

Most of you have never pulled the trigger on a hog at night peering through an infrared scope. I've had a few hunters who started the evening thinking it was going to be a slam dunk and didn't want to listen to me. So I let them make the first stalk on there own and I got the same result every time. The hunters got 200-250 yards from the group and were busted. Then they walked 400 yards back to me with a different attitude. If you don't think hogs require the same hunting skills, day or night, to be successful then you know nothing about hogs. They are just as  smart and cunning after the sun disappears behind the horizon. They don't just stand there and let you leisurely walk up to them. You still have to do EVERYTHING right to close the deal. 

Maybe I have been a Soldier too long. I have not been trained to think emotionally, but to logically accomplish the task at hand. Soldiers are asked to perform missions every day throughout the world which may be viewed as unethical by the average American citizen. Our laws of war are covered by the Geneva and Hague Convention. These treaties govern our actions and rules of engagement as international law and we are disciplined to follow it, not question it.

What document governs our action of killing a feral hog as law? As “Racor” already researched for you, the Georgia Department of Natural Resources Hunting Regulation governs it and says infrared technology used at night is a legal tool of the hunter. My brain processes these actions as hunting because it is governed by a hunting regulation. I do not question the rules of engagement or emotionally add ethics into the equation. The state of Georgia listened to the advice of their DNR wildlife biologists and labeled feral hogs as an invasive species. You can say “it shouldn't be” or “what if” the situation all you want. The bottom line--- It is what it is; a Georgia hunting regulation. 

I’ve also listened to the debate over what to call it. You have thrown around terms like control, eradication, killing, murder and even assassination. (Good grief, we sound like a bunch of animal rights activists.) Hunting "morals and ethics" of legal game species or wildlife have nothing to do with killing an invasive species. 

This thread has fired up traditional hunters more than anyone. So let’s resolve it. How do we compromise and start working together? I’ll start- I’m willing to refer to infrared night operations in the future as “thermal hog control” instead of “hunting”. Then you can clearly separate your traditional methods from nocturnal practices between yourselves and the public. What would I like in return? Stop referring to high volume removal methods from Georgia farmland as immoral, unethical or illegal since there are no legal restrictions on feral hogs. Especially since all the meat from my operation is donated for human consumption.

Hunters can remain “ethical and moral” in their traditional approach and I can remain loyal to the farming community. I think there is a legitimate place for both methods without making any negative excuses for each other. Do we have a deal? 

---JAGER


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## Eddy M. (Jul 12, 2008)

JAGER said:


> The purpose of this thread was to ask Georgia hog hunters to consider improvement in three areas. As usual, eight days and 75 posts later, we have not discussed these issues at all. It started off great. “EJS1980” made a recommendation that hunters should spend more time at co-op and ag meetings trying to put a positive image in the minds of the farmers and landowners. Then it somehow became an ethical hunting debate between traditional hunters, dog hunters and eradication supporters.
> 
> I’m not surprised it turned into an infrared technology- legal vs. ethical discussion. No matter what topic I post, it always ends the same. The last five threads I have posted without “dogs” in the title have been very popular with 1500+ views each. I suppose some hunters enjoy reading the controversy. Some are worried that infrared technology will somehow make their sport obsolete. Some are legitimately interested in new methods and equipment to help solve the problem. Others wish to ensure the words nocturnal hog control and hunting are not mentioned in the same sentence.
> 
> ...



   well said Jager


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## BornToHuntAndFish (Jul 12, 2008)

You're a good man, Jager, with good words & providing good public services.  You're doing nothing to threaten or encroach on other hunters or the future of hog hunting.  You have a great past history, good tract record, and have a good future ahead of you & deserve a good future.  Look forward to you maybe starting a daily, weekly, or monthly blog of your hunters experiences & successes on your web site and hopefully producing some more cool video hunts.


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## SELFBOW (Jul 12, 2008)

I think most everyone agreed that there is a need for your services
in this state at some level. What we didn't agree with was the "hunting" aspect and I problably never will. It's funny to me how you preach about how hard it is to killa hog at night.(your avatar ruins that argument)if you ask me.
One question I have "The men who use crop depradation permits for deer, Who governs them? What laws are they following? I think(my opinion) your methods should be in line with them and I HAVE YET TO HEAR ANY ONE OF THEM ON A HUNTING FORUM.................


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## Public Land Prowler (Jul 12, 2008)

JAGER said:
			
		

> You have thrown around terms like control, eradication, killing, murder and even assassination.



What do you call the advantage of being able to kill 13 hogs in one night as opposed to shooting 1 or 2 in the daylight?

Your point that your equipment works has been proven.


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## ejs1980 (Jul 12, 2008)

JAGER said:


> Most of you have never pulled the trigger on a hog at night peering through an infrared scope. I've had a few hunters who started the evening thinking it was going to be a slam dunk and didn't want to listen to me. So I let them make the first stalk on there own and I got the same result every time. The hunters got 200-250 yards from the group and were busted. Then they walked 400 yards back to me with a different attitude. If you don't think hogs require the same hunting skills, day or night, to be successful then you know nothing about hogs. They are just as  smart and cunning after the sun disappears behind the horizon. They don't just stand there and let you leisurely walk up to them. You still have to do EVERYTHING right to close the deal.
> 
> This thread has fired up traditional hunters more than anyone. So let’s resolve it. How do we compromise and start working together? I’ll start- I’m willing to refer to infrared night operations in the future as “thermal hog control” instead of “hunting”. Then you can clearly separate your traditional methods from nocturnal practices between yourselves and the public. What would I like in return? Stop referring to high volume removal methods from Georgia farmland as immoral, unethical or illegal since there are no legal restrictions on feral hogs. Especially since all the meat from my operation is donated for human consumption
> ---JAGER



Jager, It might help to post some of the videos of some unsuccesful hunts for all of us that think its a slam dunk. I have never hunted hogs at night with anything more than a 6 volt light mounted to a rifle. Even with this old technology I've never had a problem getting close enough. Hogs aren't that hard to stalk during the daytime. Things can and will go wrong regardless of the hour. All I'm saying is the hunters that get busted at 200 yards in the dark likely would have been spotted at 300-400 yards during the day. You have written of being a succesful hunter of hogs during the day so I'm sure you already know this.  

As far as the ethics or morals of hog hunting I feel that doing your best to make a clean shot and ensure tha animal expires quickly is more important than what you use. You say you donate all of your meat and thats great. I think alot of the people having problems with high volume hog control stem from other post from people besides yourself that talk of killing massive numbers of hogs and leaving them to rot. Or worse gut shooting them on purpose so they'll runn off and not stink up their hunting area. This causes alot of "emotions" to flare in hunters who were taught to do the right thing,eat what you kill, and kill things humanely. It's not that they are animal rights activist it's just that these things are  embedded into their soul along with all of the other beliefs that we grew up with. It's not something that you can just turn off because the state said it's an invasive species. I think we can do the right thing for the farmers and the animals we hunt. For every person that wants to kill all the hogs in their property ther's alot of people that would take the meat. There's also alot of hunters that would love to go kill a few hogs for the freezer that don't have anywhere to hunt. I think there is enough people out there that fill each position above that we can all work together and keep our ethics and morals(no matter how irrational they seem) while doing the right thing for farmers, land owners, and wildlife.


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## Public Land Prowler (Jul 13, 2008)

JAGER said:
			
		

> You have thrown around terms like control, eradication, killing, murder and even assassination.





Public Land Prowler said:


> What do you call the advantage of being able to kill 13 hogs in one night as opposed to shooting 1 or 2 in the daylight?
> 
> Your point that your equipment works has been proven.



Or shall I say 300 hogs in 90 days?


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## SELFBOW (Apr 8, 2009)

Public Land Prowler said:


> What do you call the advantage of being able to kill 13 hogs in one night as opposed to shooting 1 or 2 in the daylight?
> 
> Your point that your equipment works has been proven.


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## swamphawg (Apr 10, 2009)

Have people forgotten that hogs are nocturnal? Of course if you're hunting hogs at night your prone to have more success. How many daytime coon hunters are there? I wondered what the figures would look like, daytime coon hunters' success versus nighttime coon hunters'. Hogs' number one defense mechanism in their nose. Their eyes are TERRIBLE and they make so much noise, their ears are about obsolete. Therefore the only advantage to trying to kill them at night is that they are more likely to be seen and in order to actually see them thermal scopes are used. Would any of y'all try to hunt in the daytime with your eyes closed? I think not. How many coon hunters would hunt without dogs and a flashlight or headlamp? I'm gonna guess none.


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## Ruger GSP (Apr 10, 2009)

*?????*

Hey (@#$%*backs), 
Why pull a thread from almost a year ago just to stir the pot and get people agrevated?
These argument (opinion) threads had almost died off. I think everybody is aware of Jager Pro, if you dont like what he does, dont promote his business anymore.
Whether he is on this forum or not doesnt change the fact he was out in the fields last night, and will be again tonight shooting hogs. 
Lets try to colectivly find something AGAINST THE LAW other people are doing to complain about.


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## redlevel (Apr 10, 2009)

Ruger GSP said:


> Hey buckbacks,
> 
> Lets try to colectivly find something AGAINST THE LAW other people are doing to complain about.



Yep it would be nice if old buckbacks rofl focused his outrage toward people who are breaking the law by relocating feral hogs.  

It should be illegal to move a live feral hog even one foot in a trailer.

Edited to remove personal insult.


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## bucky340 (Apr 10, 2009)

Well, this is my first time posting on the GON forum.  I can't believe I didn't know until just a few months ago that GON even had a forum!  It has to be one of the best sites ever created.  This is exactly the kind of issue that this forum can help us address before it gets addressed for us without our input.  Now I've just been "lurking" here--don't feel much like posting unless i have something worth saying, but I care enough about this that I have to speak.

I've only been hunting with dogs for a few years, but I have to say it's about the most fun I've ever discovered.  No doubt, you either love it or hate it.  I don't have my own pack of dogs--I guess I'm more of a human catch dog for other folks.  I do tote a rudimentary trauma kit and big bore rifle just in case (I hope neither will be used very often), so I'm not totally useless I hope!  I would like to keep and run my own dogs eventually.

I also work in Ag research and participate in a small family farming operation.  I KNOW what they can do to crops.  That's why I'm proud to say that we generally take a no mercy, no prisoners approach.  If you see 'em on the run, engage.  If they're caught, stick 'em.  When some one is gracious enough to let you on their land, do the best job you can to give them results.

Now if I saw just the right size shoat, I might want to save it to finish out and butcher, but I want to do it the right way.  (my grandpa used to buy woods hogs and feed 'em--I don't think he ever owned a proper breed of hog!) Honestly though, they're usually dead long before that thought ever crosses my mind.  If you want to do this, make sure you know how to build a hog pen.  Most folks can't build one worth a darn (better build it they way the old folks would--it ain't a dog!).  Your sausage will have dug out and run long before the break of day, and your neighbors will be unhappy.

A good rule for a civil society:  DON'T RELOCATE HOGS AND ANGER YOUR NEIGHBORS.


We can't keep going in circles on this.  We've got to come to agreement that there's room enough for all of us.  We are on the same team.

There's no way we can kill all the hogs--there simply isn't enough of us putting pressure on them.  They will be here until judgment day no matter how we kill them.

The way Jager hunts and us dog men hunt is different.  He hits them at the problem site, has high kills and knocks the problem back for a while.  We hit them in their house, down in the thick, wet places.  Do that enough, and they might move out for a while.  Both methods put pressure on them to keep the hogs in check.  Jager's method defends the Hogs' crop target, and ours hits their sanctuary.  We really are compatible.

Jager, get em.  If you have found a way to make a living off of wild hogs, you truly are lucky and blessed!

All hunters, keep your farmers happy, remember that we have more in common than we disagree on, and have fun doing your thing, however you want to do it.


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## rayjay (Apr 10, 2009)

bucky340 said:


> There's no way we can kill all the hogs--there simply isn't enough of us putting pressure on them.  They will be here until judgment day no matter how we kill them.




WOW, somebody that has a clue.  Why is this obvious fact so hard for some people to grasp?

To all you knuckleheads complaining about Jager :

What he is doing will have absolutely NO effect on YOUR hog hunting but it WILL have a positive effect on the farmers' profit margin.

Traditional hog hunting will never be a management tool like traditional deer hunting is. The number of hunters is too low versus the hog's breeding abilities whereas the numbers of deer hunters is much greater and the animals' reproduction rate is much lower than hogs and the depradation rate is much higher.

signed
rj
master of the obvious


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## jmanon (Apr 10, 2009)

olcowman said:


> I have no problem with a farmer or landowner in general, who has a hog problem, allowing someone to remove the swine in an effective and efficient manner is a good practice. And I could care less if ya'll want to shoot em with hi-tech army scopes, lob grenades at them or fire patriot missiles from a jet or whatever rocks your client's boat.
> 
> As that is the bottom line here, this is a business venture. If you were out only for the good of the poor old American farmer and the good of the environment, you wouldn't be charging such a price. Let's be honest with each other here and cut all the crap, you offer a needed service, and offer it in such a way that it is going to be quite abrasive to many of those who were brought up, generations upon generations, with a traditional sense of respect for the actual act of hunting and the creatures we pursue. On the other hand, there has always been those who also call themselves hunters (a few are quite prominent in the industry itself,) who rather than get out and pursue the game in the traditional way, prefer to have someone either capture his quarry from the wild or raise it on a farm and then confine it within a high fence until such a time this hunter can break free for a few minutes to come out and shoot the animal at his convenience. The ethics and use of the word _hunting_ to describe this sort of harvest are debated all over the world and everyone has their own opinion to express. I have the money to do the latter, but thank the Lord I still have the time and health to do it the traditional way. To each his own in this case.
> 
> ...




Hog eradication certainly feels different than traditional hunting.  But if we fail at the former, we're likely to lose the ability to practice the latter.  Jager's point is that if a combination of hunters and exterminators are not effective at controlling the feral hog population, politicians may outlaw hunting.  He gave you concrete examples of states in which that has happened.  Is it in his interest to make sure the same doesn't happen here?  Sure, but that doesn't mean it isn't true. 

If hunters are perceived as perpetuating the problem rather than helping solve it, especially by practicing QDMA-style herd management or relocating captured hogs, politicians will act on that perception.  

In my view, it's naive to think that politicians will fail to act if feral hogs populations continue to increase.  They simply cause too much damage.  If you want to continue to be able to hunt hogs in the future, you should kill every one you can and thank everyone else who does likewise.  If you catch and release or "preserve" hog herds so you'll have more to hunt in the future, you could be setting the stage for hog hunting to be outlawed in Georgia. 

For me, killing every hog I see isn't the same as shooting hogs in a pen.  It's still fair chase.  We should eat or donate as much as we can, but we're helping farmers and landowners by reducing the herd when we can't.  But whether eradication comports with the ethics you were taught or not, the political reality is that if hunters are viewed as exacerbating the hog problem, the government will act accordingly and shut it down.   That's my 2 cents.


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## brooks_fc (Apr 10, 2009)




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## workky (Apr 12, 2009)

someone seemed to have left out the farmer in all this.Do any of you guys depend on the income that you generate from your land?
My best friend from highschool is a farmer,they have problems with just about anything that has a tail.We shoot almost anything down their because they are eating dollar bills.A farmer looks at an animal a lot different from a hunter,To a farmer they are a liability.

Until you loose thousands of dollars  from animals that destroy your crop,ruin your land,I really dont think you can begin to understand. .I applaud this man,I think he does a wonderfull service to the farmer.Great buisness model.

I have no problem helping my friend kill any animal that ruins his land or destroys his crop.That includes deer.If you think a farmer gives a cares about how big a deer rack is you are sadley mistaken.
They could care less,they want them gone.I say kill them anyway you can ,Yes im really concerned about the squealing pigletts running around after mama has been shot,give me a break.

I guess if you just sank 50 grand in a field that got destroyed it would be a different story.


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## Eddy M. (Apr 12, 2009)

workky said:


> someone seemed to have left out the farmer in all this.Do any of you guys depend on the income that you generate from your land?
> My best friend from highschool is a farmer,they have problems with just about anything that has a tail.We shoot almost anything down their because they are eating dollar bills.A farmer looks at an animal a lot different from a hunter,To a farmer they are a liability.
> 
> Until you loose thousands of dollars  from animals that destroy your crop,ruin your land,I really dont think you can begin to understand. .I applaud this man,I think he does a wonderfull service to the farmer.Great buisness model.
> ...



 well said


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## Rays123 (Apr 12, 2009)

this is why im beginning to hate this forum because everyone has to gripe and moan about something or somebodys always making fun of or putting someone down you guys just need to chill and put your big boy underwear back on and quit being jerks. i dont think what jager does is exactly right but if it helps the farmers make more $$$ then keep going.


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## BigLazer04 (Apr 12, 2009)

*Kill every hog you can and most likely they are still going to take over.*

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/UW220

Wild hogs breed year round with peaks in the breeding cycle during fall and spring. Breeding activity includes courtship behavior, males fighting to achieve dominance and access to mates, and copulation. While hogs may be sexually mature at 6 months of age, they typically do not breed until about one year of age, provided there is good nutrition. Sows produce a “nest”, which is usually a shallow depression in the ground, with or without vegetative nesting material, located in shaded, upland sites. With pregnancy lasting about 115 days, hogs can produce (farrow) 2 litters of 1-13 (usually 5-7) piglets per year, with the young usually born in a 1:1 male:female ratio. Piglets remain in the nest for 3 weeks, during which time they are frequently nursed by the sow. Piglets then begin to move with the sow away from the nest and progressively rely less on nursing for food. When sow nutrition is poor, reproduction may be reduced or delayed, and sows have been known to eat their young. Typically, boars are solitary animals except when breeding. However, sows (1-3) and their offspring travel in groups called sounders.        

Although they breed much earlier, it may take 3-5 years until hogs are fully grown. Under good conditions, wild hogs usually live 4-5 years, with some living 8+ years. Hog mortality is greatest during the first 6 months of life, with predation, accidents, and starvation as leading causes of death during this time. As adults, hogs typically have higher survival rates, with hunting, a wide variety of diseases and parasites, and starvation as leading causes of mortality. Humans are the main predators of wild hogs, but large carnivores such as alligators, black bears. Piglets are also preyed upon by smaller predators including foxes, coyotes, and bobcats. When conditions are favorable, hog reproduction exceeds mortality leading to growing and overabundant populations. *Humans *are the primary predator of adult wild hogs.

Wild hogs typically range over 450-750 acres, but may range wider in search of food. During the cooler months of the year, hogs may be active and feed during both day and night. However, if hunting pressure or temperatures are high, they will seek cover during the day, and feed and be most active at night. Seasonal changes in activity are also related to breeding, with sows being less active and traveling over significantly smaller areas when piglets are in the nest, and males traveling over considerably larger areas in search of mates.

The opportunistic and omnivorous tendencies of wild hogs lead to many conflicts with people and wildlife. With hard mast as their preferred food, hogs directly compete with many popular game animals, including deer, turkeys, and squirrels. This competition is considered to be a significant limiting factor for populations of these native species in some areas. In addition, hogs may consume the nests and young of many reptiles, ground-nesting birds, and mammals (including deer fawns). Wild hogs have also been known to consume young domestic livestock including poultry, lambs, and goats. When natural foods are scarce or inaccessible, hogs will readily forage on almost any agricultural crop and feed set out for livestock and wildlife, leading to significant losses. Wild hogs will also feed on tree seeds and seedlings, causing significant damage in forests, orchards, and plantations. In Florida and the Southeast, this may be a serious problem in regenerating important long-leaf pine forests.

In addition to the effects of consuming, knocking down, rubbing, and trampling large amounts of native vegetation and crops, the rooting behavior of hogs also causes significant damage. Rooting destabilizes the soil surface, which can lead to erosion and exotic plant establishment; uproots or weakens native vegetation; and damages lawns, dikes, roads, trails, and recreation areas. They have also been known to damage fences and other structures. Wallowing behavior also destroys small ponds and stream banks, and can lead to declines in water quality.

Another area of concern is the potential for wild hogs to serve as reservoirs for many diseases and parasites that may affect native wildlife, livestock, and people. Hogs have been known to carry dozens of such pathogens, including cholera, psuedorabies, brucellosis, tuberculosis, salmonellosis, anthrax, ticks, fleas, lice, and various flukes and worms. Although not considered a serious threat to people, millions of dollars are spent each year to keep livestock safe from such problems. Finally, hogs can be dangerous. Although wild hogs prefer to run and escape danger, if injured, cornered, or with young they can become aggressive, move with great speed, and cause serious injury mainly with their tusks..


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## Muddyfoots (Apr 12, 2009)

Very informative, BigLazer!


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## SELFBOW (Apr 12, 2009)

Muddyfoots said:


> Very informative, BigLazer!



Hey Muddy do the opossums breed that much?


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## Muddyfoots (Apr 12, 2009)

buckbacks said:


> Hey Muddy do the opossums breed that much?



Ain't sure. But they ain't root'n up the corn and peanuts..


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## Nicodemus (Apr 12, 2009)

Interestin` thread...


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## hawgrider1200 (Apr 12, 2009)

I shoot all the pigs I see, I never have a problem with too much meat in the freezer. If I could afford a night vision scope I'd sure like to shoot pigs at night. The folks that are supposed to know say that hunting by itself will never get rid of all the hogs. If one really wants to eradicate hogs u must trap and kill. In Hancock Co where I hunt they say they had hogs to shoot. Two or three years ago, some body started trapping on the adjoining club and now we never see any pig sign at all.


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## jmfdakaniterider2 (Apr 12, 2009)

gigem said:


> I hunted last night , caught 1 of 3 hogs that i saw! I saw close to 50 deer last night. But GOD slipped up and put hogs on this green earth!Right before he did deer. There was not a deer track in MACON CO. Until the 60s,hogs were the only things were hunted around here!So you talk about non native species.AND SORRY ON PAPER ,THE HOG BIRTH IS VERY INCORRECT,I RAISE HOGS YEAR ROUND, I just had 3 litters of 2 and 1 of 6 and 2 of the 6 are alive,The pigs are being picked off by predation.And we trap !!!!!!!!!!



Thats just what I said about my Grand paw tellin me about the day they brought the deer in where he lived in Georgia , but they said I was crazy on another part of this form....

U are right Gigem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## jmfdakaniterider2 (Apr 12, 2009)

Muddyfoots said:


> Ain't sure. But they ain't root'n up the corn and peanuts..



They do root up corn and peanuts , just not as much............

Ever saw a Beaver tear down Corn stalks ???????? We don't kill 70 a nite for doing it


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## jmfdakaniterider2 (Apr 12, 2009)

Every creature God has put on this green earth has a role ..........

To wipe them out would be against his will, so why not (Hunt) what you need and leave some for the next generation


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## dbodkin (Apr 13, 2009)

I love this thread!
I have only one question ...
Are silencers legal as well ?


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## JAGER (Apr 14, 2009)

dbodkin said:


> I have only one question ... Are silencers legal as well ?



No, suppressors are not legal for hunting IAW the Georgia Department of Natural Resources Hunting Regulation. We spoke to the Albany DNR Law Enforcement office about this topic specifically.

In our opinion, there is no advantage to using a suppressor on hogs, day or night. A subsonic bullet (less than 1000 feet per second) must be used in conjunction with a suppressor to successfully reduce noise. Limiting bullet velocity will reduce penetration which makes subsonic bullets ineffective on larger hogs. It also limits your effective range on smaller hogs. 

A subsonic bullet will not cycle a semi-automatic rifle, either. You would have to use a single shot or bolt action rifle. Even then, bullet impact on a well placed head shot will create enough noise to alert an entire sounder group of danger. Hogs are smart animals. They won't just stand there and let you quietly shoot the entire group.

---JAGER


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## snookman (Apr 14, 2009)

I personally don't see any problem with what this man is doing! He isn't hunting on any land without permission and he isn't hunting on WMA's. I have seen what these animals can do and have personally had to try and fix the mess, IT ISN'T A PRETTY SIGHT! When they are in a place where they can hurt a man's livelyhood they need to be gone!  Please don't think I don't like to hog hunt because, I wood rather hunt hogs than deer any day, i live it! The packs of hogs in those videos can completely wipe out two to three acres of planted corn One grain at a time in one night, iv'e seen it. How many times would YOU replant that field before you called somebody with the efficientcy of JAGER. I say knock em out jack!


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