# Bows vs. Crossbows



## Randy (Jan 5, 2005)

Apparently I offended a few with my comment in my lease thread about crossbows.  It was not meant to offend but I want to explain my feelings about crossbows and get some of your opinions as well.  Remember we all have a right to our opinions!

I am a hard core bow hunter.  As much as I love to shoot guns, I have not taken one deer hunting for some time.  After killing a lot of deer in my life including several big ones, I have found that there is no challange for me in gun hunting.  So I started looking into a more challanging type of hunting.  Yes, I looked at traditional archery but did not find it as interesting.  I got hooked on bow hunting with a compound.  When I first started bow hunting crossbows were not legal unless you had a special permit due to physical disability.  Then things changed.  Crossbows became legal!

I have shot crossbows before so I have a little experience.  And since they are legal I have to accept them but, I do not have to like it!  As a bow hunter and with some experience with crossbows I know it does not take the skill and practice it does with a bow.  With a few minutes of practice a person can aim and fire a crossbow just like a gun and hit what they are aiming at.  In fact my wife is going with me to Florida to shoot some hogs.  Having never shot a bow and not wanting to learn how, Mr. Phillips has let me borrow his crossbow for her to use.  After a few minutes of practice she can hit what she is aiming at out to 25 yards.  So now she is a bow hunter?  NOT!

A crossbow shoots like a gun.  Aims like a gun and takes about as much practice as a gun.  You can be good with it in a few minutes as I have shown.  It may have a bow limb on it but it is not a bow.  As a bow hunter I have no problem with compounds being used for hunting but they should have been legalized to be used during firearms season.  Having them legalized during bow season brought a lot of hunters to the woods during bow season that did not want to take the time to learn to bow hunt but wanted to take advantage of archery season.  Archery season was started to allow bow hunters to hunt without having to compete with guns.  It is a hard and challanging sport and a special season was started wiht this understanding.  Now crossbows have allowed those challanges to be deminished!

This is my opinion and you have to accept it but you do not have to like it.  Just as I have to accept crossbows but I do not have to like them.  I am sorry if you are offended but I was offended when crossbows became legal!

This should keep the pot stirred until bow season gets back in?  I appreciate your comments/opinions.


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## Jeff Phillips (Jan 5, 2005)

Randy - I agree! I am planning to let Hntrchk use the crossbow in the future and I am in the market for a new compound. Hope your bride kills a huge hog with it  

I know several folks that had never bow hunted and bought a crossbow, practiced a few minutes and went hunting. A couple of them attempted 45 and 50 yard shots and lost some animals. 

BTW: I qualified for the permit under the old system. I tore my right hand up in a printing press many years ago and have an 18% permanent disability. With modern releases it will not effect my bow shooting.


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## leo (Jan 5, 2005)

*While I disagree with you concerning crossbows*

I do agree that you have a right to your feelings and opinions  

If it is your land/lease I do not have a problem with your choice of rules, as I also have a choice of who and what type of hunters I hunt with, and .. IMO .. that's how it should be  

Why it bothers some so much how others choose to hunt has always escaped me  

I am just thankful that we do have choices and hope we continue to do so in Georgia 

leo


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## Arrow Flinger (Jan 5, 2005)

First off,  I am a hard core bowhunter too and love to hunt and shoot my compound.  Although I could have had a crossbow permit for 15 years, I choose to shoot my compound and will until the day comes that I can't shoot it anymore.  I have to shoot a 80% letoff bow and some think that is too easy.  But it is what I have to do. I have the most respect for traditional bowhunters and haved been awed by Al's shooting skill.  It takes much more work than it takes me to be decent with a compound.  Am I not a bowhunter because the compound is much easier than traditional? I think the same goes for  crossbow hunters.  Bowhunting is not all about shooting.  The biggest part of the challenge to me is getting the deer within bow range.  Once I get that done, with the proper set up and stand placement, 98% of the work is over for me.  

 As some of you will remember, I pushed for the law change allowing cross bows.  Not for me but for those that bowhunt and can't or won't prepare for hunting with a compound.  I knew a bunch of people that would pick up their compound a couple of days before season and shoot a few arrows and then it was off the the woods.  They missed or wounded animals regularly and nothing I could say would change them.  Some of them were just too busy to take the time and some were just too lazy.  But either way, the end result was the same.  Most of these people now shoot crossbows and harvest deer instead of wound deer.  Of the groups of people that I hunt with, very few have taken up bowhunting because of the legalization of crossbows.

Also, there are alot of people that are not disabled but still can't physically shoot a vertical bow enough to be proficient with it.  My 72 year old Daddy is one of these.  He could shoot a vertical bow but not enough to be good enough with it to hunt with it.  So what did he do, he quit bowhunting.  I tried to get him to get a permit but he said "I ain't disabled, just old".  He killed his first crossbow deer this year and was just as tickled as he was when he killed the many deer he killed with a recurve and compound.  I tried for years to get my Daughter to bowhunt but as hard as she tried, she couldn't shoot a 45 pound bow. She is a very petite girl and she just didn't have the physical strength to shoot.  If crossbows had of been legal when she was young, she would probably have bowhunted with me some.   

The day will probably come when I have to shoot a crossbow or quit and I will gladly pick one up and keep hunting as long as this body and the good Lord will allow me too.  Until them, more power to all of you no matter what you choose to hunt with.


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## Kdog (Jan 5, 2005)

Randy, I do hunt with a cross bow now due to physical disability.  I learned to shoot with a stick and string, no wheels.     I never deer hunted with traditional equipment because I just wasn't consistent enough with it.  I then changed over to a compound bow and here is my experience:

I lived in a new subdivison and I had a wetland that backed up to my property.  I had permission from the developer to hunt the wetland.  I had been seeing several deer in the area and every now and then, in the wetland.  I decided to borrow my brothers bow to see if I could shoot it any better.  I picked the bow up from him on a Thursday afternoon.  He showed me the in's and out's of the bow, and I went home.  I had Friday off for some reason  :  and decided to build a quick ladder stand.  At 3:00 I decided to practice with the bow.  Fired off around 10 shots and thought this was too easy.  I set up my new ladder on a tree in the wetland at 4:00.  Saturday AM, I climbed about 6:40 AM, at 7:15 I had three deer coming through.  At 7:20, I shot my first with a borrowed bow that I had only shot 10 times.  A decent 2.5 year old 8pt that scored 106 B&C.  I could not have shot this buck with an Xbow, the tree would have been in the way of the limbs.

Not sure what I am trying to say here because if it was my lease, I would want to make a few set rules as well.  I would probably be a pain to deal with.

The main thing is that it is your lease, you make the rules that you want, and either everyone follows them, or they can hunt somewhere else.  It would not bother me one bit if you did not want me in your club since I hunt with an Xbow.  Just don't tell me I can't go fishing with you again.       

   

Kdog


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## fredw (Jan 5, 2005)

*Randy*

when you run the lease you have every right to set the rules.  No concern there.

While I didn't comment on your post, I should probably be included in the list of folks who, while not offended, was a little taken by surprise.

I hunt with the crossbow and I also hunt with a compound.  In years past, I hunted with the recurve.  I enjoy all three.   All three bring a level of excitement to deer hunting that I don't get with the gun.  

Here's a quote from another post that I feel strongly about:



> Often, even though we are all hunters/fishermen, we have a widely divergent set of beliefs and values. Quite often, we get so tangled up with expressing our own beliefs and values that we fail to step back and ask if we are creating divisions within our own ranks.
> 
> Just think, we have hunters who feel equally passionate about:
> 
> ...


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## HT2 (Jan 5, 2005)

*Randy......*

You didn't offend me.......

I don't listen to you anyways.......


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## Randy (Jan 5, 2005)

Leo,
It does not bother me that others choose to hunt wiht a crossbow.  Just taht it was legalized for use during archery season.  I don't like the fact that 22 cal. centerfires are legal for deer ethier but that is because I don't think that they are capable in the hands of those who are not great hunters adn pick the right shots.  What you see is kids and others less experienced using a minimal caliber.  Along those same lines what you get with crossbows (not always but it is true) is people who don't want to practice and become proficient with a bow so they get a crossbow.

Flinger
So since those people you speak of won't take the time to become proficient with a bow you want to give them another weapon they can use during archery season.  I don't understand the reasoning.  Heck let's just do away with the different seasons?  I'd rather see them with a gun that they "might" be proficient with.  Also if the challenge is just to get the game within bow range, just do that with a gun?  I tried that for a while with a pistol.

Kdog,
Did not see your point either.  If crossbows were legalized for firearms season you could use it then.

FredW,
Again I have no problem with crossbows be used to deer hunt.  They just should not be legal during the archery season.

I guess I did not make that last point clear.  I have no problem wiht somebody hunting with a crossbow but,  it shoots like a gun,  it aims like a gun, it requires the practice of a gun.  It should be legal for use during firearms season.  And a "bow only" club as I stated in my lease thread should be considered a "bow only" club.  Some got upset that I put the crossbow outside of "bow only."  But that is the way I feel.  It is not a bow.


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## reylamb (Jan 5, 2005)

I keep hearing about some comments about a lease and crossbows, but I guess I missed the thread somewhere?  What is all the hoopla about anyway?

It is no secret, I am and was against crossbows in the archery season, but felt them appropriate in the primative weapons and general hunting seasons.


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## Randy (Jan 5, 2005)

Reylamb,
See my thread under the lease forum "Lease in South Lamar CO."  I might need to change the title to "bow only lease in South Lamar CO."


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## PWalls (Jan 5, 2005)

Randy,

I have an older PSE compound bow (before 85% letoff days) that I hunted with a great deal. I have even killed a deer with a compound bow (borrowed from a friend). I practiced with it religiously and was very proficient with it. I just wasn't able to hunt as much at the time as I wanted to with it.

I had always had a fascination with the crossbow (ever since High School history class and the midievel times). So, when I decided to take up archery hunting again I was glad that I had a choice to either use a compound bow or a crossbow. I picked the crossbow because of my fascination and the price (several hundred dollars less than a decked out Matthews).

You are wrong about the practicing and are doing an injustice to crossbow hunters with that regard. I could mention names of compound bow hunters that don't practice either until a week before the season. I could mention compound bow hunters that miss and/or wound deer because of lack of practice. Actually, with today's flat shooting compound bows, a person shooting a crossbow should practice more than the compound bow hunter because of the larger parabolic arch of a crossbow arrow (lot more drop in crossbow than compound). Also, there are other limitations (size, weight, noise) that make a crossbow a challenging weapon as well. Compound bows are not as hard as you make it out either. Short of the actual draw, there isn't much difficulty (flat shooting, speed, weight, high let-off). 

Could I kill deer with a compound? Sure. Did I want to buy a compound because of some sense that crossbows are inferior? Nope. I bought what I had always wanted to buy and was thankful for it.

The weapon does not make a hunter a better or worse hunter. His dedication to practice and the hunt makes a better hunter. So while your opinion assesses that crossbows make for slob hunters, I can assure you that there are probably just as many slob compound bow users.

Also, the fact that it bothers you that crossbows were legalized for everybody during archery season sounds more like elitism than anything else. Don't want anymore hunters during the woods to kill your deer? If you feel that way, then I am sorry for you. I am sure there were plenty of archers (the real kind with stick bows) that had your opinion about compound bows way back when as well, but that didn't stop the legislature from recognizing the validity of the weapon just like the just did for crossbows.

As you said, everyone has an opinion and is entilted to it. You can gather from my posts above that I am wonderfully happy that crossbows were legalized for the same season. 

Philip


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## Al33 (Jan 5, 2005)

*Randy,*

I thought you made yourself perfectly clear. : 

I interpreted your sentiments to be more about the integrity of what archery season should be about and once was, not about the weapons themselves.

Al


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## Arrow Flinger (Jan 5, 2005)

Randy said:
			
		

> Leo,
> Flinger
> So since those people you speak of won't take the time to become proficient with a bow you want to give them another weapon they can use during archery season.  I don't understand the reasoning.  Heck let's just do away with the different seasons?  I'd rather see them with a gun that they "might" be proficient with.  Also if the challenge is just to get the game within bow range, just do that with a gun?  I tried that for a while with a pistol.



Randy, these people are going to bowhunt either way!  Would you not rather see them bowhunt with a weapon they could hit where they aim?  I didn't say that range was the only challange to me, just the main one.


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## Randy (Jan 5, 2005)

Exactly Al.  I wish I had your way with words.


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## PWalls (Jan 5, 2005)

Integrity of what it once was about?

Are you blaming the lack of integrity on the hunter or the weapon?

Randy assumes that crossbow hunters don't practice. I contend that there are compound hunters out there that don't practive either.

The weapon doesn't affect the integrity of the season. If that were the case, we should all be using stick bows and muzzle loaders only.

Like I said, I am sure that there were stick bow hunters that thought the "integrity" of the season was screwed over by the introduction of the compound bow.

Still looks and sounds like elitism.


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## Randy (Jan 5, 2005)

Pwalls,
That is a whole nother argument.  I am sure Al would be one to argue we should go back to stick bows.

I did not say that people did not practice with crossbows I said they don't need to.  And Compound hunters that do not practice are just as quilty as those who don't practice with any weapon. 

And I have no problem with elitism.  There is something to be elite about taking a deer with a bow.  Not everybody has the patience, will and skill to do it.  We had an archery season.  Now we have an archery/crossbow season.


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## PWalls (Jan 5, 2005)

People don't need to practice with a crossbow?

That's just plain ignorance and trying to use a blatantly false statement to push a point. I hate to use "stupid" in the above sentence because I don't think you are.

I've already listed the reasons why you need to practive with a crossbow (drop, noise, etc..), so your argument/point is invalid and is unworthy of mention on any serious conversation of this subject.

If that is your argument for your opinion, then I would have to say that everyone has an opinion just like everyone has an ******* and with respect to the justification for your opinion above, it stinks too.

Like I said earlier (and your affirmed), it boils down to elitism. You as a compound bow hunter are better than crossbow hunters. Us crossbow hunters just don't belong in "your" woods when you are hunting because we might pollute "your" land and kill "your" deer.

I am sorry, this country was founded on better principles than that. I for one am extremely glad that our legislature recognized that and legalized the crossbow over your elitist objections.

I apologize if my response offends you, but I feel pretty strongly about elitism and I am better than you attitudes. I for one will continue to hunt next year with my crossbow and I sincerely hope you have a successful season with your compound bow.


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## Al33 (Jan 5, 2005)

Perhaps I should have used a term other than integrity.  :  Something like "purity" or "true intent".

I will not be drawn into an argument about weaponry. Been there, done that, and got the T-shirt. 

Ya'll have fun.  

Al


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## Kdog (Jan 5, 2005)

Randy, I think you saw my point.  It was the exact story you told of your wifes experience with the crossbow, with the exception that I shot a deer in my example.  Not much need to practice with a compound bow, they are just too easy IMHO.

 

Kdog


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## Randy (Jan 5, 2005)

PWalls,
You missed my comments again.  I never said we compound bow hunters were better than you crossbow hunters.  I did say it does not take a lot of practice to soot a crossbow.  My wife is a great example of that.  I did insinuate that you crossbow hunters don't belong in "our" woods during archery season and I stand behind that insinuation.  I was not around (or at least in the fight) when bow hunters originally fought for an archery season but I dare say they would have fought to keep crossbows out of that season if they had been legal at the time.

I originally started this thread becasue some people sent me an e-mail saying that they were offended by my not liking or allowing crossbows in my bow only lease.  I am offended that they do not understand what bow hunting is.


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## PWalls (Jan 5, 2005)

Your elitist and "holier than thou" type attitudes make it impossible to see reason. You use invalid arguments (no practive/less practice) to justify your elitist opinions (and I guess to make yourself feel better).

You also stepped around the original archery issue again. You said you were not around when bow hunters fought to get an archery season (which was only recurves at the time trying to get a seperate hunting season from firearms season). I was not referring to that. I was referring to the recurve hunters not wanting compound hunters as a direct correlation to you compound hunters not wanting crossbow hunters.

You are allowed to use your compound bow because some legislature back when there was nothing but recurves had the sense to overrule elitism just like I can hunt a crossbow now because a recent legislation was passed to overrule your elitism. You are benefitting from that now, but can't see the correlation.

Also, just for the record, I can tell it's not even worth starting a discussion with you on why you keep saying a crossbow is not a bow (string/cables/pulleys/arrows/vanes/broadheads/quivers - notwithstanding)

I did not see the lease thread, or I would have kept this discussion in a private manner as well.

Please establish your compound bow only club and enjoy your season next year. Also, please change its name to say compound/recurve bow only because I would not want my crossBOW's name associated with it.


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## PWalls (Jan 5, 2005)

Oh, one more thing.

You stated:

_I am offended that they do not understand what bow hunting is._


Please change that to "I am offended that they do not understand what my limited and elitist view of bow hunting should be".

I don't think you have the correct definition of "bow hunting" only a prejudiced and lopsided one.


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## Randy (Jan 5, 2005)

This elite thing really go to you huh?  You know elite is not a bad thing at least not always.  Elite means the best of anything considered collectively.  I hope you and every hunter strives to be in the elite class of hunters.  I try to strive to be the elite in all parts of my life.  I am not one who settles for the average.  ELITE is not a bad thing.

Maybe I could call me club the ELITE COMPOUND RECURVE BOW ONLY club.


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## Kdog (Jan 5, 2005)

I think "The Elite Group" sounds good.

Whatcha think Randy?  

    

Kdog


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## PWalls (Jan 5, 2005)

Elite as applied to a standard of excellence as you suggest is not a bad thing.

Elite as applied to an exclusion of people because of your values as you practice is a bad thing.


I do not have a problem with elite if it is applied as the former. I strive to be an elite hunter as you call it. I strive to take only what I need. I strive for a quick killing shot. Etc, etc,

I do have a problem with elite when it is used in a prejudicial way. That is the way you are practicing it.

Please change the name of your club to whatever you want and establish whatever rules you want as you have that right in this great country. A country I might add that has fought against elitist and prejudicail views as you are promoting.

Luckily for both of us Jesus died to save compound and cross bow hunters. Good thing he didn't have an "elite" attitude, huh.


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## Randy (Jan 5, 2005)

If my thinking that archery season should be for compound bows and recurve bows means that I am prejudice then....quilty as charged.  I did not mean to be prejudice.  I thought prejudice was forming an unfavorable opinion beforehand without knowledge or hatred or dislike directed against a racial, religious group?  I did not know that my thinking crossbows should not be allowed during archery season made me prejudice?  I have never considered myself as prejudice.  Elitest maybe but prejudice?  Not me!


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## TurkeyCreek (Jan 5, 2005)

Randy,

I understand what you are trying to say. Its about the challenge of the hunt.


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## PWalls (Jan 5, 2005)

Prejudice as defined by Mr. Webster:

1. Injury or damage resulting from some judgement or action of another in disregard of one's legal rights or claims.
2. Preconceived judgement or opinion
3. An adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge
4. An instance of such judgement or opinion
5. An irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics.

Randy, I do not consider you to be #5 above. However, you have formed opinions that are not based on facts like #3 above. You then use these opinions to affect how you control things (your attitude and lease) and how you argue the case against crossbows. I call that a prejudicial attitude.

However, I think everyone does that to some degree about all things. Ford/Chevy is a good instance.

My beef is that you made several comments that went beyond that normal prejudice into the realm of "better than thou" or "you are inferior to me and my ways".


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## PWalls (Jan 5, 2005)

Here's another false hood. Or, I should say opinion.

Challenge of the hunt? 

Get real. 

You still have to do everything a compound bow hunter does to get the deer close before you can take a shot. I have actually found it more difficult because a crossbow hunter it on the front of the tree because the crossbow will not let you hide behind the tree and shoot around it. Also, a compound bow is less noisy and shoots flatter,further than a compound bow.

What's the only difference? The draw of the bow. Unless the deer is looking dead at you, you can't draw a bow (or pick up a crossbow for that matter). Other than that, I never had any difficulty with a deer seeing me draw (shooting lanes, picking the right time). There is a slight argument for the holding for the shot theory, but that has almost been negated with these 85% letoff bows (not that everybody uses those that can).

There again, when a compound bow hunter brings up "the challenge of the hunt" issue, I would love to hear what they have to say to a recurve hunter. Those guys have the true challenge.


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## Randy (Jan 5, 2005)

I went back and ready my posts.  I did not see where I infered that you were inferior to me or that I was better than thou?  I don't think anybody that has shot both a compound bow and a crossbow would argue that a compound bow is a harder weapon to master and takes more practice.  I did infer that and I feel that way.  A big part of bow hunting is not  only gettint teh game close but drawing the bow without being seen and then making the shot especially when the game is looking right at you becasue they saw you draw the bow.  Face it!  Bow hunting is harder than crossbow hunting!  It is not a prejudice thing.  It is not an elitest thing.  It is a fact!


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## Buzz (Jan 5, 2005)

What seems to get lost in this discussion of traditional recurves vs. compound bows vs. crossbows is that the crossbow has been around for thousands of years and if I am not mistaken the compound bow is a 20th century invention.  

This is not to disrespect anyone, just my observation.   Many compound bow hunters want to talk about tradition or whatever, but do you honestly believe that hunting with a high tech compound bow that has a fiber optic pendulum sight shooting carbon arrows nearly 300 fps utilizing 60% to 80% letoff with a mechanical release that has a 2oz trigger is traditional?   I don't, but I will use mine anyway.


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## Michael Lee (Jan 5, 2005)

You guys have some good arguments both ways.

I just want to use the best equpiment that I can to ensure a quick, clean harvest and be the best shot I can under any situation.

It all boils down to the hunter and how much effort he or she put into being the best hunter they can be when trying to harvest an animal.

ML


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## Randy (Jan 5, 2005)

Maybe it is not "traditional" but it takes much more effort and practice adn work to kill something with a compound than a crossbow.  I never said traditional.


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## GeauxLSU (Jan 5, 2005)

*Do I have this right?*

Randy,
I just want to be clear (being a non-bowhunter), you're stating that you think archery season should not include compound bows, because they are not 'difficult' enough to use?  Correct?  
I know you well enough (I think) to know that you realize you have drawn a COMPLETELY arbitrary and purely subjective line in the sand.  
I've got to admit, this and similar debates are some of the most bizzare conversations on these boards...  :  
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## Randy (Jan 5, 2005)

Archery season should not include CROSSBOWS because the are cloeser to using a gun than a bow.  They aim like a gun, the shoot like a gun, You hold them like a gun, they take less practice like a gun, they are as accurate as a gun (out to certain yardage).  Shoot one.  It is more like shooting a gun.


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## GeauxLSU (Jan 5, 2005)

Randy said:
			
		

> Shoot one.  It is more like shooting a gun.


I've never considered bow hunting until xbows were legalized.  I may in fact try it next year.  Truth is, I have other issues with bow hunting (xbow/compound/traditional it doesn't matter) that will probably continue to keep me away.  It's amazing how differently we can look at the same sport.    
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## gacowboy (Jan 5, 2005)

*Crossroads with the Crossbows????*

Somebody post a poll and let's take a vote. Should crossbows be allowed during Archery season unless a person has a disability permit ect. I tried but could not set it up correctly. My opinion is that they should be included in firearm season only ,unless a person is disabled or senior citizens ect. then I can understand it.


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## Randy (Jan 5, 2005)

So why would you look at bow hunting now that Xbows are legal?  Be careful this is a loaded question!

Cowboy, I am not sure there is a need to poll.  That decission had been made and I don't think we will ever reverse it!


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## PWalls (Jan 5, 2005)

No need for a poll. Thankfully the correct decision has already been made.

Do you hold them and shoot them like a gun? Yes, they have stocks and sights along a horizontal plane.

That is where the similarity ends. It is still a string, pulleys and arrows with all the limitations therein. That is why it is an archery weapon and belongs in that season for all to use whomever wants to.

I wasn't a member on this forum when this debate was originally aired. I am sure that the debate was just as passionate then as it still is now.

Since there is no more "decision" to make, I suggest an end to this thread, especially with respect to crossbow vs. compound bow.

The original post was about a decision made by Randy to limit compound bow only at his private deer lease. As this is his perogative, then more power to him.

As far as Phil's comment about why now that crossbows are legal is simple. He could be like me. Always wanted one and wanted to hunt with one. I couldn't because I am not disabled. Therefore, when they were legalized and I had the opportunity to take archery hunting back up (about a 5 year hiatus), I decided to go with a preference of crossbow (didn't concern myself with "challenge" or "inferior" or "elitist". Got what I had always wanted.


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## GeauxLSU (Jan 5, 2005)

Randy said:
			
		

> So why would you look at bow hunting now that Xbows are legal?  Be careful this is a loaded question!


Well if it's loaded then let me pull the trigger.  Or would that be release?   What, that's too similar to a gun...  
Very simple and it's EXACTLY what you are saying.  My hunting time is VERY precious to me.  So is the time I get to practice my marksmanship.  I do NOT get my fill of either one, but like all things in life, it's a balancing act.  As you have stated, I could become proficient with a xbow much quicker and STAY proficient much easier than I could with a compound bow.  There are a few places I'm considering hunting that are bow only.  That would be my only practical chance to do so.  Again, the reality is, as I have stated before, I have other objections to bow hunting in general so I'll likely NOT do it but I may.  And if I do, it will be xbow.   I find it hard to believe that the firing 'position' and the lack of a draw 'immediately prior to shooting' is what all the hoopla is about, but again, since I don't bow hunt, I'm sure I'm missing something...  Maybe you're just feeling 'encroached' upon since they were not originally allowed?  I guess if firearm season was originally only a shotgun or pistol season and suddenly rifles were allowed (and heaven forbid, with scopes!   ) we'd be getting the same reaction from some folks?     
As far as the the thread about your compound/recurve only club, I didn't see it, but who cares?  It's YOUR club.  Make it boxer shorts and Fords only if you want to.   : 
Hunt/fish safely, 
Phil


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## matthewsman (Jan 5, 2005)

*phil!!!!*

Don't give him any ideas......Pwalls don't let him get your goat,hunt with what you want......Randy,I agree it is easier to shoot a compound and be proficient with it,if it were more difficult or the same ,the option would have never been offerred to disabled folks.I'm glad they are offered as an option to get more people in the woods,sharing the costs,paying fees,and speaking up for hunters rights.I do wish they were limited to disabled people during the regular archery season.I'm hopeful that one day everyone will not switch to crossbows like they did to compounds.I hunt with a compound and consider it less difficult than with a traditional bow.I do not fool myself into thinking it's on the same plane as a longbow just because they are both held verticaly and are required to be drawn and held back at the time of the shot.That said,if we were limited to traditional (long and recurves,no sights,shooting off the shelf)my hunting season,and harvest record,would not be as enjoyable for me.Therefore,I would not limit someone elses gear of choice during a public archery season,I would grin and bear it just as I would if someone was in an area before me on public land.As to a private lease,Randy,I would enjoy being a member of an "elite"club such as yours.Shoot me some info on the land,clear-cut,old growth etc.Maybe I could come look with the other guys...........donnie


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## Randy (Jan 5, 2005)

Phil,
I will try to explain more how I feel about it.  In doing so I will use the word "traditional."  That word means different things to different people but to me it means what I grew up on,  the way I was taught to hunt and respect the game and the land and learn the woodsmanship that it takes to take game on a fair, ethical, and humane way.  Things are changing fast and I know some of the younger generations don't understand where I come from.  No, I am not an old man but I was taught by a couple.  A couple of the best hunters and fishermen that I have ever met.  They taught me to respect the game and the land where it lives.  They taught me woodsmanship and how to "fit" in the woods without being noticed.  They taught me what fair chase is (or was, it is changing quick).   They taught me hunting ethics.  They taught me how to take game humanly.   These two men were my Grandfathers.

Yes, a lot of the way I feel and think today is based on tradition.  Tradition the way I was taught here in the rural south.  They did not hunt deer with dogs.  Heck they did not even shoot does (that is another story).  They did not hunt with rifles that would kill a deer a half mile away.  They taught me that deer hunting is a sport to be enjoyed in a relaxed fashion sitting quietly and still and within close quarters.

They did not stalk turkeys or shoot them with rifles or muzzleloaders.  They did not shoot turkeys off the roost.  They did not ambush turkeys.  They taught me how to make sure it was a tom (heaven forbid I kill a hen).   They taught me that turkey hunting is a sport meant to be enjoyed by calling the tom away from the hens.

They did not hunt with crossbows.  They even frowned on the compound bow when it came into use but they eventually accepted it.  They taught me that the thrill of bow hunting is as much in the practice and preparation as the actual event.  There is where you loose me on the crossbow.

They did not shoot doves on the line or quail on the ground.  Game birds are meant to be shot on the wing.  They taught me that the fun of the bird hunt is just seeing if you can hit it.

Forget even mentioning baiting around them or they would wash out your mouth.  And hunting on the property line?  They would take you out of the stand and give you a good beating!  I was taught that the way a man hunts and his ethics and his respect for the game and the land are looked upon by others.  That hunter would be a respected man if he followed the traditions and rules.

As a hunter and fisherman, I hold to these traditions and think they should be passed down to the next generation.  Some want to change these traditions to make hunting more enjoyable, easier and not so hard to learn.  They say we are loosing hunters becasue it is becoming so hard and we need to change in order for the sport not to be lost. But that is what it is all about isn't it?  Learning?  Learning to be patient.  Learning to be a good shot.  Learning to read the woods and the sounds of the game.  Learning to have respect for the game and the land they live on.  Don't these things make us better people as a whole which helps in every part of our life?  Should we make it easy or teach and help those future hunters to get through those hard parts so they to have these same traditions?  I say we hold on to traditions and ethics and help the next generation come up to the challenge.  Not reduce the sport to the lowest denominator.

So yes, my traditional ways are old, based on my grandfathers.  But it was good eough for them and these traditions have served me well and have given me a lot of enjoyment.  Yes hunting is changing.  Traditions are being lost or changed.  Ethics are changing.  Weapons and their use is changing.  I guess I will be like my ornery old Grandfathers and resist these changes as long as I can and maybe by then I will be too old to hunt and too tired to care.

Happy hunting everybody and accept the challenge.


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## TOW (Jan 5, 2005)

Compound Bows VS Crossbows in *Hunting *  

There are numerous pros and cons for any type of archery equipment.

*Accuracy*

Shooting off hand the compound wins hands down. That is proven out at any archery event where the compounds and crossbows shoot the same targets. If the crossbower can use a rest (not always possible in a deer hunting situation) then the tables are reversed.

Although a hunting tool’s good accuracy is a positive and not a negative desire.


*Trajectory*

In most bow hunting conditions (less than 25 yards) there is no difference as both the compound bow and crossbow will generate approximately the same feet per second and kinetic energy. Downrange the compound will win hands down as the shorter arrow of a crossbow does not stabilize as well and will lose feet per second in speed and KE faster than a compound bow shot (longer) arrow as it attempts to correct itself in flight.  


*Weight*

Most crossbows weigh in at right around 6 pounds. That is close to the weight of a lot of rifles and shotguns. The compound bows weigh in much less at 3 to 3 ½ pounds. Not a big deal unless one is also packing in a stand, ladder or other equipment. Or hot footing it up and down mountains chasing elk/mule deer out West.


*Clearances * 

Because of the horizontal limbs a crossbow is much harder to pack into the woods on the way to the stand or still hunting. When hunting from a treestand the horizontal limbs have a major conflict with the vertical tree we are in. It is extremely difficult to shoot behind the treestand as the limbs and string will not allow the crossbow to be up against the tree like a compound bow would. 


*Drawing/Shooting in the Presence of Game*

The crossbow has a slight advantage in this area. The string is back in a firing position before game is approaching. How much of an advantage is debatable as several things come into play.

1) Being 20 to 25 foot up a tree when attempting to draw a compound bow will lessen a deer’s ability to see you.

2) Bows are usually 75 to 90 percent let off so one can draw on a deer much sooner and hold longer to make a killing shot with less worry about the deer seeing you. Mike Beatty drew and held on the new world record non-typical buck for a full 3 minute before making the shot. That bow was a 85% let off.

3) A number of hunters that use ground blinds are using a new blind called Double Bull that allows one to draw and shoot through a curtain and never be seen by the animal.

4) Most bowhunters learn when and when not to draw on a deer. IE – when it’s head is behind a bush or tree or allowing the deer to walk past them and shoot them quartering away.

Both pieces of equipment have to be raised into a shooting position. Only the compound has to be drawn. That drawing of the bow string is directly behind the riser and is mostly obscured by the riser. That is unless an archer is overbowed and has to "horse" it back. 


*Ease of Mastery*

The crossbow would have an edge here. More so if the individual had some previous rifle shooting experience. Irregardless, a “newbie” just starting out with either piece of equipment can be shooting hunting accuracy (all arrows in a 6 inch circle) within two hours *IF* properly instructed. Maintaining proficiency would also go to the crossbow. 

Ease of mastery is irrelevant to the hunting aspect. Being a master of your equipment has nothing to do with how good a hunter you are. It only has to do with what kind of shot you are with the equipment at hand should that shot present itself. 

There is very little difference in mastering a crossbow and a compound. There is a MAJOR difference in mastering a stickbow as opposed to either a crossbow or a compound. If the difficulty mastering the hunting tool is used a yardstick for archery hunting then the season would have to be limited to traditional only.


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## Al33 (Jan 5, 2005)

*DADGUM Randy,*

That last post was a doozy!     

I enjoyed every word of it.

"accept the challenge", I like that.   

Al


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## Kdog (Jan 5, 2005)

Nice post to Randy and Tow.  Both of you deserve a      

And a      

Kdog


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## GeauxLSU (Jan 5, 2005)

Randy said:
			
		

> Phil,
> I will try to explain more how I feel about it.  In doing so I will use the word "traditional."  That word means different things to different people but to me it means what I grew up on,  the way I was taught to hunt and respect the game and the land and learn the woodsmanship that it takes
> 1)to take game on a fair, ethical, and humane way....
> 2)They taught me how to take game humanly....
> ...


Randy,
Good read.  We all have unique experiences that introduced us to hunting.  Mine was by my father.  It for me, was not so much about the game, but about spending time with him.  He taught me well about ethics and humanity and respect and stewardship.  Let me show you how two people with similar starts view things differently.  I edited (for brevity) and numbered (for reference) some of your post to comment on.  By number...
1) & 2) I think bow hunting is one of the most INHUMANE ways to take game (no comments please, it is my opinion based on countless observations and admissions by people here on these boards.  I could go pull up the numerous  posts from this year about wounded animals lost by bowhunters from these forums, but you all know what I am referencing.)  
3) Why?  That is more humane if proficient.  It was because (apparently) it did not appeal to THEM.  No no one MADE them hunt with a rifle.
4) Many would argue a shot at a stationary bird is MORE humane than a moving one.  I would not (ever), but again, the 'ethics' of that situation are purely subjective. 
5) That right there says it all.
6) Why would you impose what is a 'thrill' for you on someone else?  : 
7) Again, it would be a much more responsible way to insure a quick clean ( = HUMANE) kill.  Again, I would not but the irony hopefully is clear. 
8) Imagine what that statement sounds like to a non-hunter.     Actually, it even bothers me...
9) But they are yours and yours alone.  Pass them on to those who learn from you.  We all have unique traditions.  
10)  I just don't see a xbow as the 'lowest common denominator'.  I wish I did.  That would mean all the 'big' problems would have gone away (JMHO of course). 
11) I don't think anyone (state included) is asking you to change the way you hunt.  You clearly stated your grandfathers did not participate in legal weaponry (rifles) and at first not even compounds.  You have options.  Enjoy them.  MAKE YOUR OWN CHALLENGE!    
It's not the same for everyone.
Randy, having met you a few times and reading many of your posts, I think you'll agree you and I agree (when it comes to hunting priorities) way way more than we disagree (actually I can't think of anything we've disagreed on, but knowing how much I open my cyber mouth, I'm sure there's been something).  This one and a few others are just not the big voodoo monster I think people see them as.  
We have REAL and BIG problems threatening the very existence of hunting.  The small percentage of people using xbows during archery season is no where on that least IMHO.  
It is my experience I am occasionally wrong on some things.  This could be one.  
I still luv ya' like a bald headed brother.     
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## Arrow Flinger (Jan 6, 2005)

This is a quote from this months GON by Todd Holbrook, assisant director of DNR.

"When we allowed crossbows, the age structure of the hunters in the woods during archery season made a big shift"


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## PWalls (Jan 6, 2005)

"_They taught me that deer hunting is a sport to be enjoyed in a relaxed fashion sitting quietly and still and within close quarters."_

I do believe that describes hunting deer with a crossbow just as accurately as it does with a compound bow.

_"They taught me that the thrill of bow hunting is as much in the practice and preparation as the actual event. There is where you loose me on the crossbow."_

Back to the "practice" issue again, huh. I don't know how much you practiced with your compound bow during the offseason, but I can guarantee you that I practiced probably just as much with my crossbow (ask my wife). I shot many (probably 10-12) arrows just about every day at various ranges (just about wore out one side of one of those block tagrets). I made sure what my crossbow would do and what I could do with it. Am I an exception, I seriously doubt it. However, you are basing your negative opinion of crossbows on the fact that I am. As far as preparation, I believe I put just as much work into that as you did also. I hunted several spots that were scouted out. Hung tree stands and one ground blind. I did everything a compound bow hunter would have done. So again, you are making a false assumption.


Lowest denominator, too easy? Obviously, the posts by TOW and Phil and myself don't mean anything. There are plenty of disadvantges to the crossbow when comparing it to the compound bow that outweigh any "ease" that you might think.


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## Randy (Jan 6, 2005)

Well you guys missed my point again!  Read my fist sentence!!!!!!!!!!!!!  "I will try and explain how I feel about it."  That is the way I feel.  This whole post started with my opinion.  PWalls says it stinks.  I really don't care if he thinks my opinion stinks that is my opinion and it is based on my teachings by my grandfathers and the traditions I choose to follow.  I will continue to hold to these traditions and I will continue to try and teach them to new hunters young or old.  If they choose not to folow mine but create their own then so be it.  If this sport eventually turns to baiting, or other ways in which I do not agree I will then choose to not be a part of it or I will change to.  I dought I will change, I am too old for that.  These changes are happening in more than just our sport.  The world is telling me to accept some other principles which I have been taught were wrong.  Some of them I will never accept either.  I don't care how many people say same sex marriage should be legal, I will never accept it!  Some times you have to draw a line that YOU see as the lowest denominator.  I have drawn mine and I will stand behind them.  I will argue them until I am blue in the face.  I will not lower my values just so others can join in.  Not me not ever.  You guys have your values/opinions and I have mine.  I don't want this sport to die either.  I want new hunters but I will not lower my standards to see that it does.

These are MY opinions and I will stand behind them.


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## GeauxLSU (Jan 6, 2005)

Randy said:
			
		

> ... It was not meant to offend but I want to explain my feelings about crossbows and get some of your opinions as well.  Remember we all have a right to our opinions!...


I admire your passion bro, and we share many of the same concerns about the apparent decline of society.  But to mention crossbows and homosexual marriage in the same thread?!?!  Now THAT is what I call passion!  Or maybe you just don't feel as strongly as I do about homosexual marriage? ....  
Well, like I said, I don't see the monster.  You've gone to great lengths to explain why you see it as bad, and no doubt some quiet readers agree, but at the end of the day, you're hunting an animal, from the same distance, with the same skills to get him/her within the same shooting range to place the shoot in the boiler room, exhibited the same patience and hopefully maturity and respect in your shot selection.  That doesn't seem 'bad' to me.  Of course I don't view sniping animals across a pasture as a threat to the sport, not for everybody and not for me on some days but again, there is a very big difference between personal preferences and threats to the sport, at least to me.  It all goes back to that practice and drawing thing huh?  Ok.... : 
Enjoyed the views but this non-bowhunter is out, because I'm apparently talking about what I don't understand, (won't be the last time I'm sure    ) despite my best efforts to relate.     
As always...
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## TOW (Jan 6, 2005)

Arrow Flinger said:
			
		

> This is a quote from this months GON by Todd Holbrook, assisant director of DNR.
> 
> "When we allowed crossbows, the age structure of the hunters in the woods during archery season made a big shift"



AF,

Have you got the full article??

I'd like to see and read it.

Thanks..


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## Randy (Jan 6, 2005)

Wonder why the age structure made a bid shift.  Could it be that it was quick and easy to get in the woods with.  That would be my guess!


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## Arrow Flinger (Jan 6, 2005)

Randy said:
			
		

> Wonder why the age structure made a bid shift.  Could it be that it was quick and easy to get in the woods with.  That would be my guess!




No Randy.  It is because the same people that I learned tradition, ethics and taught me to hunt and respect the game and the land and learn the woodsmanship that it takes to take game on a fair, ethical, and humane way... taught me that the thrill of bow hunting is as much in the practice and preparation as the actual event and taught me most of my knowledge about bowhunting are now back in the woods bowhunting.


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## Arrow Flinger (Jan 6, 2005)

TOW,
The quote was used in an artical about proposed legislation.  He used the quote in comparing the debate over scopes on ML's to the debate over crossbows when that legislation was brought up. The point being that both would allow older hunters to get back in the woods.


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## Randy (Jan 6, 2005)

Flinger I said I had no problem with those individuals who can not physically bow hunt using crossbows.


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## Arrow Flinger (Jan 6, 2005)

I was just answering your question.


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## Randy (Jan 6, 2005)

Your answer does not hold water.  Why pass a law allowing crossbows when if these guys are old and can not physically use a bow they could have gotten a permit to use a crossbow.  That was already legal.  Why would that increase the number of hunters.  Were these guys just not willing to go through the process of getting a permit?


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## Arrow Flinger (Jan 6, 2005)

I will state this again as quoted by my Daddy

"I am not disabled... Just old"

I don't know about anyone else, but my Daddy is a very prideful man and would never go to a doctor to be certified disabled just so he could bowhunt. I know.  I tried for years. I am not even sure if a doctor would certify someone as disabled based on age alone. According to the old law, a doctor had to certify a permanant disability with a percentage of disability.  

You can say that it was the older hunters fault for not bowhunting before but Pride is part of their tradition and upbringing. Either way, they are back in the woods and I for one am glad to see it.


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## PWalls (Jan 6, 2005)

ArrowFlinger,

You forget. According to Randy, if you are able to hunt with a compound bow but choose to hunt with a crossbow, then you are lazy less of a hunter than he is.


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## Randy (Jan 6, 2005)

I said that?    Forgive me!


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## csgreen1 (Jan 6, 2005)

I hunted 12 years with a compound and the last 2 years with a crossbow i can tell you right now it all comes down to one thing.Getting that deer in close.It does not matter if i have my compound or my crossbow if he comes inside 35 yrds i can take him with either bow, unless he comes in behind me then i better have my compound.If he is past 35 yrds then you better know the distance and how your bow(compound or crossbow) shoots at that distance.And that takes alot of practice with either one.If i was shooting over 35 or 40 yrds i would want my compound for sure.What i have found is that people that are anti crossbow have never even hunted with one for a season or two to see what its REALLY like.Randy if your such a great bow hunter why not hunt with a stick and string or maybe even a spear and do away with that high tech compound your making yourself look bad brother.


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## Randy (Jan 6, 2005)

CS,
Maybe it is because I came along after the compound was acceptable in the eyes of bow hunters but the compound is my bottom denominator.  I'll admit that if compound bows were not legal then I might not bow hunt at all.  I am not sure that I want to do it that bad but I don't have to worry about that.  Does anybody know if Pope and Young thinks crossbows (oops) are acceptable as an archery weapon?  Go check their web site, it is not!  No I am not an authority on bow hunting but they are the leading institution.  They think like I do!

No I have never hunted with a crossbow even though I have shot one a little.  I found it so much like a gun that if I were to not use my bow I would just go back to the gun.

I am making myself look bad because I have an opinion?  Oh well!


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## GeauxLSU (Jan 6, 2005)

*I'm back.*



			
				Randy said:
			
		

> Does anybody know if Pope and Young thinks compounds are acceptable as an archery weapon?


OK, I lied.    
Randy, what's the let off on your bow?
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## reylamb (Jan 6, 2005)

Randy,  You might want to check the typo you got there:



> Does anybody know if Pope and Young thinks compounds are acceptable as an archery weapon?



As for Holbrook's comments, sure he can say aything he wants off the cuff, where is the documented information to back up his assertion?  

Phil, outside off all other discussions, why not bow hunt, I mean you specifically?  I am curious to hear your reasoning.


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## Randy (Jan 6, 2005)

65% but even if it was more it is still reconized as a bow just not a legal one for scoring Pope and Young.  Is that where you were headed?  Got to keep it at 65% so IF I were to get a good one I could be in the ELITE!  They did change that recently though.  I think you get a star if it is over 65% now!

Oops, sorry for the typo!  Thanks!


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## TOW (Jan 6, 2005)

Randy said:
			
		

> 65% but even if it was more it is still reconized as a bow just not a legal one for scoring Pope and Young.  Is that where you were headed?  Got to keep it at 65% so IF I were to get a good one I could be in the ELITE!  They did change that recently though.  I think you get a star if it is over 65% now!
> 
> Oops, sorry for the typo!  Thanks!



That is not correct. The P & Y will recognize trophies taken with any amount of let off, even the Cocept99 bow with 99% let off. The 65% used to be the limit, but that was changed last year. Now any deer taken with VERTICAL archery equipment is eligible for the book. Anything over 65% let off will be noted with an astrerisk, BUT IT WILL BE IN THE BOOK.

The age shift that Holbrook was talking about was not up. It was an age shift down. That reverses a trend that hunters' average was getting older every year.

The crossbow allowed youngsters and women to get into the game at an earleir age. Thus the downward shift.

His comment was not "off the cuff". Do you actually believe he would make that up??


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## GeauxLSU (Jan 6, 2005)

reylamb said:
			
		

> Phil, outside off all other discussions, why not bow hunt, I mean you specifically?  I am curious to hear your reasoning.


Rey,
I really don't want to highjack the thread but since you ask...
I always,  always, always try to hunt in the most humane legal method possible.  A quick clean kill is my number one desire.  It always disturbs me a little when some folks say, "I'd rather track a deer than have it drop in it's tracks.  That's part of the 'fun' for me."  When I track a deer all I can think of is every step it took it was suffering, potentially unnecessarily.  I realize this is unfathomable to some people but I enjoy hunting MUCH more than killing.  When I do decide to shoot something, I like 'em to fall like they've been hit by a ton of bricks.  I understand some people (not all) enjoy bow hunting even over gun hunting, because they feel they are 'proving' something either about their hunting prowess or their manhood (For God's sake that's not directed at anyone in this thread or in particular, just a general comment about past observations).  I have nothing to prove.  I know I'm the top of the food chain (at least in the woods I hunt) and I'm going to use the most proficient weapon possible at all times out of respect for the animal.  I 'prove myself' by the shot choices I make.  More than once I've lifted the gun and put the cross hairs on a deer and said to myself "gotcha!", without ever pulling the trigger and then just smiled as he/she walked away.  
I eat what I shoot (yotes being the exception).  
I've been seen in the woods during bow season more than once, but it's with a video or still camera.  I'm beginning to realize that if the good Lord leaves me on this earth long enough, bow hunting may be my only option left.  Given it, or nothing, I'm honestly not sure what my choice would be (since I've never shot a deer with a bow), but I hope to not have to make it soon.  As stated earlier, I'm only considering it now because of some places I'd like to hunt that are already bow only.  I'd actually like to own a bow (all three types) just to shoot with even if I never hunted with them (since I find the skill intriguing and admirable), but like everything, time is precious and I've got too many outdoor hobbies as it is.  
Don't know that I adequately explained what is hard to define but I swung at it.     
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## GeauxLSU (Jan 6, 2005)

Randy said:
			
		

> 65% but even if it was more it is still reconized as a bow just not a legal one for scoring Pope and Young.  Is that where you were headed?  Got to keep it at 65% so IF I were to get a good one I could be in the ELITE!  They did change that recently though.  I think you get a star if it is over 65% now!
> Oops, sorry for the typo!  Thanks!


Yes, that's exactly where I was headed.  Hope you get in the book!    
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## Randy (Jan 6, 2005)

Phil,
Unfortunately pain and suffering can even happen with a gun or bow.  Now I don't know, I have never been shot with a bow but those in the know and from my experience the animal does not appear to feel pain.  Maybe a bee sting but most of the time they just walk or hop off a few yards and begin to get sleepy and lay down and go to sleep.

It can be painful with a bad shot but that can and does happen with guns also.  I (knock on wood) have only lost one in all my years of hunting.  That was with a bad bow shot.  Not really my fault, he jumped the string.  That old Bear whitetail bow was not very fast and was extremely loud!


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## Michael Lee (Jan 6, 2005)

Just FYI: Crossbows are not allowed by Pope & Young Club

SPECIAL NOTE: For the purpose of the Pope and Young Club's Records Program, a bow shall be defined as a longbow, recurve bow or compound bow that is hand-held and hand-drawn, and that has no mechanical device to enable the hunter to lock the bow at full or partial draw. Other than energy stored by the drawn bow, no device to propel the arrow will be permitted. A let-off exceeding sixty-five (65) percent, using the A.M.O. standard method of measurement, will be listed with an asterisk (*) in the Records. 

ML


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## GeauxLSU (Jan 6, 2005)

Randy said:
			
		

> Maybe a bee sting but most of the time they just walk or hop off a few yards and begin to get sleepy and lay down and go to sleep.


Randy?!?!  Are you serious?  You launch a rotating broadhead comprised of razors through it's chest and lungs and you think it's probably comparable to a 'bee sting followed by a nap?!?!   Now I KNOW you're just   
Exactly 1/3 of the deer I've killed dropped dead in their tracks (always heart lung) and 2/3 ran some distance.  None over 100 yards and none survived more than one minute after impact.  I did a poll in this forum once about how how far, on average deer run after being bow shot.  The results were much more conservative than I thought (though still further than I'd assume the average firearm shot deer) and then there was post after post by those same folks talking about the deer they had to track for hours for hundreds and hundreds of yards.    
Your personal recovery rate is incredible and no doubt due to proficiency and discipline in shot taken.  What would you guess the average distance traveled is by the deer you've bow shot?    
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## Michael Lee (Jan 6, 2005)

Yeah, I have to disagree on the bee sting view as well.  Deer feel pain, just like if you hit your dog with a broom stick and it yelps.

Now, I'm not saying a deer is going to yelp or anything, but pain is a certain on any weapon used.  Pain may be avoided on certain placed shots, i guess.

We will probably never know though.

ML


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## Randy (Jan 6, 2005)

As I said I have never been shot with a bow but I have watched and they certainly act like the have been stung.  I have had them hop off a few feet dan look back as if to say what just stung me.  Like a paper cut or a razor cut on yourself.  I burns a little but I would not call it pain!

My recovery?  Yes I have been lucky but as I have said before, I have been very picky with shots.  Maybe one reason I have not killed one in the last 2 years?  I would say my recovery average is 50 yards.  Most fall within sight.  I also don't like taking one when there is another one with it if I can help it.  My experience is they will run further trying to keep up with the others.


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## Kdog (Jan 6, 2005)

Phil, out of the +/- 15 deer I have taken with a bow, the longets recovery was 65 yards.  85% were within 45 yards.  4 of the deer hardly flinched when I shot.  They scratched at the entry wound with their hind leg or shook their skin as if shaking off a fly, and walked off a few yards prior to expireing (sp).  If your broadheads are razor sharp, and you hit in the right area, they dont feel a thing.

The longest track was due to me hitting the shoulder.  That deer felt it all.  Most of the deer run due to the noise made by the bow/arrow, not the shot if it is placed correctly and the head is razor sharp.

Kdog


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## GeauxLSU (Jan 6, 2005)

I wish I could find that poll.  
I guess it's time to start two more....
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## reylamb (Jan 6, 2005)

TOW


> His comment was not "off the cuff". Do you actually believe he would make that up??


Yes

I want to see his facts to back up his assertion.  I want to see where crossbows changed the age structure, in either direction.  Could it be that the dynamic is changing as the youth are now buying archery licenses and using their compounds?  I personally know at least 6 youth that purchased archery licenses this past season and hunted with their compounds that never previously had to purchase archery licenses before due to their age.  

If anything, I would have expected the age dynamic to go in the older direction as many may get archery licenses again that had given up compounds and recurves due to their age, not get younger.   I have yet to be asked one time when purchasing an archery tag what weapon I will be using, I do not believe there is any way for the state to make any scientific claims as to the effects of crossbows bringing new bowhunters into the woods.  At best, everything is antecdotal, until I see the scientific proof that his claim is accurate and only attributed to crossbows.  As more and more of our rural areas become populated and urban, bowhunting opportunities will become prevelant in areas that were formely open for any weapon.   If an individual wants to hunt many of those areas, they are going to have to bow hunt it.  

In order for me to believe that crossbows are the sole reason for any increase in bowhunters number and/or the age structure, I must see scientific research that accounts for all factors, ie, urban sprawl, youth archery programs, and an influx of population growth from residents of other states that bowhunted in their state.  Anything other than actual, scientific, verifiable research is nothing more than off the cuff and at best antecdotal.

--------------------
Phil

For what it is worth, deer do not feel pain like we do, nor like most other mammals, a bee sting is about the adequate description.  Many a bowhunter has seen a deer get shot completely through and trot a couple of yards, stop, look back, and then get the wobbly legs without acting the least bit hurt. They do not have the same nerve receptors that humans have.  


Now y'all are going to make me grab my scientific data to back all this up right?  I will have to pull out my bowhunter education stuff when I get home and post the info back here tomorrow.  There is some suprising scientific facts that support bow kills being extremely humane.

On a side note, a study was conducted on Ft Ridley (sp) in MN (it think it is MN I will have to double check) on bow shots where the animal was hit and not recovered.  Anyone care to wager what the survival rate (in %) for non-recovered bow shot deer was?

All of this good information, and more is available at one of our Bowhunter Educaiton Classes.

On another side not, Phil, the sport of archery is great, even if you decide not to bowhunt.


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## GeauxLSU (Jan 6, 2005)

reylamb said:
			
		

> Now y'all are going to make me grab my scientific data to back all this up right?  I will have to pull out my bowhunter education stuff when I get home and post the info back here tomorrow.


Yes you are right about wanting proof (just as you stated you did regarding the age shift    )  
I'd really give it more creedence if it came from a non-hunting source.    
Like I said, I've never bowhunted, but I've heard the cries/bleats whatever you want to call it, of wounded deer.  It was no 'bee sting' reaction.   Not pretending to say firearm hunting is painless, but IMHO, it is the most humane legal method of killing an animal that I have at my disposal.  That's what I'll stick with for now.  Gladly receptive to any contrary info.  
All good stuff.
I've no doubt archery is a blast.  Like I said... time... time... time...  One day.
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## TOW (Jan 6, 2005)

Reylamb,

It was the Camp Ripley Study and the wounding rate was 13%..

Actually we had two age shifts. Fisrt to older hunter getting back in the game and then  in 2003 - 2004 the younger hunters started picking the crossbow.

From the Georgia DNR..

"The 2003-2004 hunting season marked the second year that crossbows were legal for the majority of hunters in Georgia.  Previously, only those hunters with certified disabilities were permitted to use crossbows.  

The number of crossbow hunters and their harvest during 2003-2004 increased by 55.3% and 168.0% respectively over 2002-2003.  

To put these numbers more in perspective, crossbow hunters comprised 24.8% of archery hunters and 9.1% of all hunters for 2003-2004.  Crossbow harvest comprised 21.8% of archery harvest but only 2.6% of the 2003-2004 total Georgia deer harvest. 

Thirteen point five percent (13.5%) of crossbow hunters indicated they previously had used a crossbow under the handicap permit system.  

Thirty one point one percent (31.1%) of crossbow hunters (6,884) indicated they had not hunted with archery equipment prior to using a crossbow.  

To estimate the real impact crossbow hunters have on total harvest we must make several assumptions.  The first is that new crossbow hunters who already participated in archery hunting did not increase their harvest by changing from compound/recurve to crossbow.  The success rate for crossbows (.49 deer/hunter) is comparable to that of compound bows (.51 deer/hunter).  

Our survey indicates that 78.5% of archers use compounds and it is less likely that a traditional archer would switch to a crossbow.

 There was a significant increase in the number of archery hunters for 2003-2004.  The raw estimates give us about 9,300 additional archers.  A large part of this increase can be attributed to the 31.1% of crossbow hunters (6,884) who indicated they were new to archery hunting. 

Additionally, age structure data indicates an influx of older hunters into the crossbow hunter ranks.  A portion of these individuals are likely retired archery hunters who were attracted back into archery hunting by the legalization of crossbows.  

If we assume all additional archers hunted with crossbows and the .49 deer per hunter harvest rate for crossbows is additive for both of these groups, then 4,557 additional deer would be attributed to additional archery (crossbow) hunters.  The 95% confidence interval for total harvest is plus or minus 7,818 deer.  These data and assumptions suggest that any additional harvest attributed to the legalization of crossbows is not significant at a statewide level.  

During 2002-2003 there was a small tendency for crossbow hunters to be older than the general hunter population.  That trend continues for 2003-2004, particularly in age classes over fifty years old .  

Thirty four point six percent (34.6%) of the general hunter population is over 50 years old while forty three percent (43.0%) of crossbow hunters are over 50 years old.  Older age groups show greater crossbow use for both seasons crossbows have been legal, *however there also was an increase in crossbow selectivity this year by the 25-29 year age group.*  The average age for the general hunting population is 43.8 years.  The average age for crossbow hunters is 45.3 years.

This is a summary of our results."

*TOW - Bold emphasis was mine..*


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## TOW (Jan 6, 2005)

I've bow shot deer, elk, turkey, fallow deer, bear and pronghorn.

Only one showed any semblance of pain. That was a spike elk I spine shot. It laid there and bellered. I had to hurry up and get another arrow in it because I could not stand the bellering.

Two of the three pronghorns I've shot never had a clue as to what hit them in the side. One only jumped back 10 yards and looked back at where he was standing. He did a little leg quiver, keeled over kicked twice and gave up the ghost.

The other ran away 30 yards stopped and looked back. Then fell on his side.

I've bow killed a good number of deer the same way..

The last 10 or so NEVER ran more that 70 yards.


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## Arrow Flinger (Jan 7, 2005)

Good information TOW.  The quote I stated was indicating a shift upward in age stating that older hunters were now bowhunting.  I tend to agree with it too.  I know of a bunch of older bowhunters that are back in the woods or in the woods for the first time as bowhunters.  I also know of several younger Ladies that are now bowhunters.

GeauxLSU
I will have to disagree about bowhunting being the most inhumane method of killing deer.  I have killed my fair share of deer with a bow in the last 28 years and all but 1 died within 20-100 yards with about 60-70 yards being the average.  Most went into a death run at the shot so they lived only a few seconds.  This IS humane in my opinion. As far as pain, I can't tell you that cause you can not tell much in the few seconds the deer live after a shot.  I do know that I have seen several deer limp and something is causing them too.  Pain? I think so.  Myself for one, if given the choise, would rather be shot with an arrow than shot with a bullet. 

One thing I firmly believe though is that a deer wounded with an arrow has a much better chance of surviving that a deer wounded with a bullet.  A clean cut has a much better chance of healing than a tissue distroying bullet wound and I think infection is much worst with a bullet. 
As far as the wounding rate, I do not believe it is much higher than with a rifle and like I stated, I believe the survival rate is better.   Bowhunters on average (due to the nature of bowhunting) have to follow up on every shot. Blood on the arrow or no arrow indicates a hit.  A bunch of gun hunters assume a miss if the deer don't fall on the spot or within sight and some will not even check.  I have seen this many times when hunters come back to camp and claim a miss only to find or someone else find the deer later.  Set in the woods on opening day and listen to the shots.  There is no way all those shot ended in the harvest of a deer.  Were they all misses?  Who knows but I don't think so.  Give bowhunting a try and see for yourself.  I think you will be as addicted as the rest of us. Give me a holler when you get ready to start and I will help you as much as I can or point you in the right direction which ever way you go.

Flinger


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## leo (Jan 7, 2005)

*After reading 79 replys*

I still have the same question I had after reading 2  




> Why it bothers some so much how others choose to hunt has always escaped me




leo


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## Randy (Jan 7, 2005)

Leo,
I thought I answered your question.  First off is is a matter of ethics to me.  Some game laws have been changed over time to allow what I think is unethical.  Like shooting deer with a 22 cal. weapon or any centerfire pistol.  They just want the deer shot.  They don't really care if they are recovered or if the deer run off and die.  They just want them gone.  As hunter we have bought in to the destruction of our sport wanting it to be easier to use anything any time.  like The doe llimit now.  in only a few years of this high doe limit everybody is complaining abut no deer?  What did we expect?  We wanted more doe days and more limits and we got what we asked for.  WHo in their right mind needs 12 deer?  We as a hunting community should be utraged! 

Second is tradition.  As a bow hunter we wanted a season for hunting with bows.  Crossbows are not bows!  I don't have a problem with crossbows per sey but they should be limilted to either gun season or physical disability permits for archery season.

But this is only my opinion and it may stink to some.  Do you have a lowest denominator where you think any weapon should not be allowed or are you for what ever?  Tanks, handgrenades, what if they begin to allow shooting from a vehicle?  Is there any ethical or traditional form of taking game that you feel should be upheld?  WE are destroying our sport from the inside becaue WE are becoming to lazy and too greedy to do it the ethical and traditional way!


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## leo (Jan 7, 2005)

*Randy,*

I read your answers and "I" still can not understand your feelings.

I disagree with many of your conclusions, but not your right to hunt the way you choose.

I respect your feelings and your right to have them and I hope you continue to enjoy your passion towards hunting. 

I, of course, hope that all of us can enjoy ourselves in our woods which ever way we choose to hunt  

leo


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## Randy (Jan 7, 2005)

So that is a NO!  You're up for anything that is legalized in our society?  SAD!


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## leo (Jan 7, 2005)

*Randy*

You really have no idea what my ethics and standards are and I do not intend to argue them with you on line.  

I will state that I am very restrictive with what weapons I choose to hunt with, but those are my choices  

If the fact that I do not get upset that someone uses a different method to do something than I do bothers you, I really regret that you feel that way 


Have a good day 

leo


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## GeauxLSU (Jan 7, 2005)

Arrow Flinger said:
			
		

> GeauxLSU
> I will have to disagree about bowhunting being the most inhumane method of killing deer.


Flinger,
I never said that (I hope).  What I said was, of the legal options available to me, I have what I feel is a 'more' humane options at my disposal (firearms).  That may in fact, not be accurate.  Everyday is an education and many of the comments here are interesting.    


			
				Randy said:
			
		

> First off is is a matter of ethics to me. Some game laws have been changed over time to allow what I think is unethical. Like shooting deer with a 22 cal. weapon or any centerfire pistol.


Randy,
You think shooting a deer at 30 yards with a .44 mag is unethical?  A kid taking his first deer at 75 yards with a .22-250?  How about 250 yards with a .30-06?  Inside 40 yards with a compound or long/recurve after hundres of hours of practice the ONLY acceptable answer?  Man I'm really getting lost now...  : 
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## catahoularick31 (Jan 7, 2005)

Man alive, whats the all the crying about. Dont we"hunters" take enough flak for what we do.  Who honestly cares what the next hunter uses to take a deer hog or turkey. Why worry about what the next guy is hunting with, we should worry about ourselves. It seems like some are really concerned that crossbow hunters are gonna shoot to many deer. Why? Does that mean there are less for you to shoot? I cant believe some are suggesting not letting crossbow hunters hunt on there club during the achery season. That sounds like a load of crap to me... Sounds like you feel you are inferior to the man or woman who hunts with a different weapon. If someone chooses to hunt we should accept that and rejoice be glad they are hunting. Because at the rate we are going we are a dying breed.  If it is legal, than you can do it. If you dont like it, well just hunt the way you like. I admit I used to "fear" the crossbow, but honestly everyone that I knew who bowhunted stuck with there bows. Whats the big deal? If you wanna challenge yourself, try to get them to legalize spears, now that would be a challenge............ Just stop whining and be glad folks are hunting, dont be sad you will still get to shoot your bow at em... and by the way i do not hunt with a crossbow, i use a compound and a recurve. 

_(edited for typing around the censor)_


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## Arrow Flinger (Jan 7, 2005)

Longbows and recurves are the traditional way. The compound like the crossbow was legalized later.  Where does the line start for "traditional" and who drew that line?  A bunch of the people that determined what tradition was and fought against the legalization of the compound and then finally accepted them are now accepting and using crossbows.   

There is nothing unethical about hunting with a crossbow.  This is what you implied and that is what bothers me.


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## csgreen1 (Jan 7, 2005)

Randy you have never even hunted with a crossBOW so what do you know?Did you know that one shoot is all you get unlike a compound.


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## Arrow Flinger (Jan 7, 2005)

GeauxLSU said:
			
		

> Randy,
> I think bow hunting is one of the most INHUMANE ways to take game (no comments please, it is my opinion based on countless observations and admissions by people here on these boards.  I could go pull up the numerous  posts from this year about wounded animals lost by bowhunters from these forums, but you all know what I am referencing.)
> Hunt/fish safely,
> Phil




Sorry Phil but these were your words.


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## GeauxLSU (Jan 7, 2005)

*My misinterpretation.*



			
				Arrow Flinger said:
			
		

> Sorry Phil but these were your words.


Thanks.  Yes, I see.  Let me clarify again, relative to what's legal, I do feel that way (as stated above).  When I read your statement I thought it was saying I felt bowhunting was the 'most inhumane' way to kill a deer, period.  Obviously not.  To remove any ambiguity....., between firearms and bows, I think firearms are more humane (splitting hairs perhaps) but again, some interesting comments in this thread and perhaps I'm wrong.  
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## Randy (Jan 7, 2005)

Leo,
I do not want to argue your ethics just wondering if you had any.  Your posts seem to indicate that anything legal is ethical.  I happen not to hold those ethics.

Phil,
Did I say hunting with a 44 mag was unethical?  No.  I hunt with a 44 some time.  But now a 9mm automatic is legal and yes I think a 9mm is unethical.  A kid with a 22-250?  Yes, I think that is unethical.  A 22 caliber weapon and the bullets made for it are not desigen for big game.  Can they take big game?  Yes with patience and a well placed shot.  But IMO the 22 caliber is at best a marksmans weapon and shoudl not be used by those who are learning when, where and how to shoot a deer!  A 30-06 at 250 yards?  Not really unethical but not for me.  IMO you are not really hunting when shooting that far, just shooting.  But this is IMO!  Remember I was taught that deer hunting is a quiet close quarters sport.

Catahoularick31(man that is a lot to type and spell),
I do care about what and how other hunters hunt!  As I said I think we (hunters) are allowing our sport to be degraded to the point where there is no sport.  Baiting will be legal soon!  Many here will take advantage of SHOOTING over bait.  We have allowed the limits to be increased to the point where we have begun to kill our way out of deer hunting.  And now we are complaining about it (look at this months GON!)  We have asked that vertually any weapon be allowed and they are.  Even some that are not leathal enough for humane kills.  Yes I care about what is allowed in our sport.  I hate to see it fall in to a state of the lowest common denominator as the rest of our society has!


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## GeauxLSU (Jan 7, 2005)

*Gotcha'*



			
				Randy said:
			
		

> Phil,
> Did I say hunting with a 44 mag was unethical?


I thought you did by this...





			
				Randy said:
			
		

> Some game laws have been changed over time to allow what I think is unethical.  Like shooting deer with a 22 cal. weapon or any centerfire pistol.


I see what you are really saying is SOME pistols, not ANY pistol as stated.  I know what you mean...  Agreed. 
There is also a subtle a difference to me between ethics and responsibility but it is very subtle and another discussion.    
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## csgreen1 (Jan 7, 2005)

LTHOMAS that is what the REAL BOWHUNTERS used to say about the compound.


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## PWalls (Jan 7, 2005)

csgreen1,

The first couple of pages or so of this post was me and Randy going back and forth about that very subject. According to him, a crossbow is not "traditional". Of course, he is assuming that his compound bow with all those nice fancy sights, stabilizers, carbon arrows, 85% letoff, dropaway rests, fiberoptic pins, etc are "traditional" for bow hunting. He knows it use not to be that way, but he refuses to see the distinction between his argument and the same one years ago between recurve hunters and compound hunters. He also neglects that as far as history goes, it was recurve bow (longbow) then crossbow then compound bow. I guess I should be arguing that my weapon is more traditional huh.

He also doesn't think that a crossbow (note the word bow in the title) is a "bow". Even though it has the strings, cams (although mine is a recurve so I should start a thread about traditional recurve crossbow hunters having to share time with new fangled compund crossbow hunters, I guess), arrows, broadheads, sights or a compound bow. Short of the cocking of a crossbow, they are identical (with a few more limitations, read challenges, than the compound).

While I respect Randy as a fellow hunter, I don't see his opinion (based on false assumtions and/or limited experience and bad judgement) changing any time soon. If there was a movement to make big game hunting "bow only", I am sure he would be more than happy to lead that charge and exclude it from the rest of us gun hunters because shooting a deer with a gun is too easy and not challenging (his words from ealier posts I believe).


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## Randy (Jan 7, 2005)

And as I pointed out.  One ofthe major bow hunting institutuions in the world (Pope and Young) does not reconize the crossbow either.  Limbs, pulleys, and strings do not make it a bow.  In your logic a tank is a gun.

I encourage you to visit the Pope and Young site and see there definitions of an acceptable bow for hunting.  They do reconize my bow with all it's modern convienances as an acceptable bow!  And yes it has changed as of late.

All I am saying is when the guys who began the push for an archery season began their push they did not intend for it to include crossbows.  They wanted their own season seperate from the guns and they had it for a little while.  Now guns that shoot bolts are legal!


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## PWalls (Jan 7, 2005)

How old is Pope and Young? Were there hunting crossbows around when Pope and Young started their classifications?

Was there compound bows when Pope and Young started their classifications? Or, was there only recurves and they denied compound bows for a while also?

Also, Pope and Young is highly prejudiced don't you think? I imagine they are made up of a lot of "elitist" (didn't think I wouldn't forget to get that word going again did you) compound bow hunters only. I also imagine that if Barnett and Horton and Excalibur and such started giving them money (which I assume Matthews, Hoyt, Bowtech, PSE, etc do - although I may be way off base here as I don't know much about P&Y) then we may have a classification for crossbows (maybe with an asterik like your super untradional compound bows with over 65% letoff).

If limbs, pulleys, strings don't make it a bow, what does make a bow? That's about as stupid a statement I have heard. Also, look up the word "bow" in the dictionary. There is no distinction between horizontal or vertical. It says "a weapon consisting of a curved flexible strip of material strung taut from end to end and used to launch arrows". 

If they have recognized your "modern" bow, then I imagine that they will be recognizing a crossbow sooner or later as well.

I also imagine that the guys who pushed for an archery season didn't think it would ever include anything called a compound bow with all of its split limbs and cams and fiberoptic sights either.

You are benefitting from someone like myself who pushed for change a while back that allows you to hunt your "non-tradional" bow but griping because someone has now allowed for me to hunt with another weapon that is a bow (just horizontal instead of vertical). You love to reap what others sowed for you, but won't to refuse others of us the same opportunity.

Let's make it simple. Be man enough to admit the above. Be man enough to admit that some "elitist" recurve bow hunter years ago was overruled so you can have your compound bow and now you are complaining that someone else has done the same thing again for crossbows. Be man enough to say that what is good for the goose is NOT good enough for the gander.


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## csgreen1 (Jan 7, 2005)

PWALLS you the man brother.


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## Randy (Jan 7, 2005)

I am only MAN enough to stand up for what I think is etical and traditional.  We all have to draw the line some where and I have drawn mine.  I am not willing to accept a form of hunting (or anything in this society) that passed as legal, is ethical or traditional.  It is my opinion and I will not back down.

Did Pope and Young start off with just recurves and stick bows?  I have no idea but probably.  I think they were around before the compound was invented?  But the crossbow was around long before them and they did not then nor do they indicate they will ever approve crossbows as bow for P&Y.

But really that does not matter anyway.  I probably would feel the same about crossbows if P&Y approved them.  I mearly used them to show that I was not the only one who felt this way about crossbows.

Did some guy stand up for me and my compound bow and get it approved?  If he did I thank him because I believe that is the least common denominator for bow hunting.

What is good for the goose is not good enough for the gander.  I don't know why you want me to say that but I did?  Guess I am a MAN now?

We have been debating this issue for a few days now and this thread has gotten very long.  Long enough actually.  I can see from you calling me out the be a MAN that you are on the edge.  This subject has really hit a nerve with you so I think there has been enough discussion on it.  You guys know how I feel and others have e-mailed me saying they feel as I do but I guess they just don't like debates.  Anyway I am through.  I am out of here to go shoot some coyotes.  Moderators feel free to lock this one up!


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## flat foot (Jan 7, 2005)

Pwalls
     You want to talk about being a man then put down the weapon that youth and woman use, and hunt like a man, stop taking the easy way out! What is sad is that I have Friend in South Carolina his son is 12 years old and hunts with a bow. He uses his own climbing treestand too. He is respected more than any crossbow hunter reguardless of age. That is awesome! In reading your previous replys Is a crossbow traditional as far as being mideval times yes, as far as hunting no. Getting close to an animal, you can do with a gun too, even right under your stand. The differance is at the moment of truth and when you shoulder a weapon and pull the triger it is called gun hunting reguardless of projectile. Where as if you were useing a longbow, recurve, or a compound, there is a whole lot more to the moment of truth then shooting somthing that is already cocked. I can't wait until my 8 year daughter can pull enough poundage to bow hunt, she is currently at 18 lbs. When she does I will know she is one up on all the crossbowhunters!


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## csgreen1 (Jan 7, 2005)

Flatfoot try cocking my 200lb crossbow while 25 feet up in a treestand.Then we will talk about who the man is.How many deer have you shot with a crossbow?I have killed 6 with mine and 20-25 with my compound.


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## Kdog (Jan 7, 2005)

Randy, I hope you and your wife have a great trip shooting pigs, yotes, etc...     

Now, I consider you to be a very good friend and all, but you just called me, and many others, an unethical hunter.  That is wrong, and deep down you know it.  Not only that, you just said your wife was unethical since she will be Xbow hunting with you this week/weekend.  I am sure we will talk about it some time in the future.  If not, oh well.

Flatfeet, I was a traditional archery shooter from the time I turned 14.  I was ethical enough at that age, and up to 25, to know that I did not need to go to the woods with that stick and string.  At 25, I finally picked up a compound, and basically shot a decent buck the next day (see earlier post).  Where is the challange?  To this day, I can't shoot as accurate with my Xbow as I could with my compound, even a borrowed compound for that matter.  So why don't you put down that bow of yours with the 80% let off and pick up a real stick and string?  I have one if you would like to give it a real go. 

Hope everyone has a nice evening.

Randy, I hope you know where I am coming from.  FF, I don't know you, but think about it for just 1 minute.  We are a "GROUP".  We need to keep it that way.  If we do not stop this bickering, where will we be?

My last post on this subject, period.

Kdog


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## flat foot (Jan 7, 2005)

Wow..... your assumption of what I shoot is as close as Bill Clinton getting elected again. Glad to see I can take some heat off of Randy for a while He,He. I do have a compound, I don't have a crossbow that is a easy choice, even for most people. I do have an English long Bow made from my friends in England with a Hemp string Hand made ceader arrows with grizzly heads. Which I chase pigs with on the base. So am I speaking with experience..........no   Maybe not as much as some others but still a good amount. If I were you I would not complain about cocking the "crossgun" in the tree because you chose it, not me. If you wanted to impress someone, anyone, hunt all year with it, not even once carrying a rifle. Then and only then you will be close to a full time Bowhunter,but still not close at all due to the short-cuts you decide to take.


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## flat foot (Jan 7, 2005)

Sorry Green, I did not answer your question about how many animals I have shot. Well Three years ago I shot four does and Hog. Last year I shot Four does, and this year I shot Three Hogs and two Eight points one is in the Taxidermist from a WMA during gun season and the other was on a trip up to West Virgina in a WMA as well. By the way it sounds I will pass you in a season or two. I will Send the report from Illinois next year as well. If the Military will allow me to be in country.


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## csgreen1 (Jan 7, 2005)

So i am not a real bow hunter because i use a crossbow now instead of my compound  i will remember that next year when its 95 in the shade and i find myself hiking up the side of lookout mountain with my treestand and my crossbow my clothes soaking wet and getting weak from the loss of blood from the skeeters then i will get up the next day and do it all over again you know why because i love it.Dont judge me until you walk a day in my shoes.


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## TOW (Jan 7, 2005)

Randy - “Crossbows are not bows!”

TOW - Well, the very same thing has been said about the high tech, high let off compound “bows” too. The leading traditional archery club – Comptons –calls them MACHINES.

What a bunch of nonsensical elitists that would call YOUR  piece of archery equipment a MACHINE. Why shame upon them misnaming your “bow as a MACHINE...are they trying to divide and conquer bowhutning?

Wait a minute – aren’t you misnaming a crossbow as a GUN?? Oh, oh… bowhunters we have a problem…people are misnaming other bowhunter’s equipment in order to:

1) Make themselves look better.

2) Make the other bowhunters look worse

3) Demonize archery equipment we don’t like.

Hmmm.. which is it…?

Randy – “And as I pointed out. One of the major bow hunting institutuions in the world (Pope and Young) does not recognize the crossbow either. Limbs, pulleys, and strings do not make it a bow. In your logic a tank is a gun.

I encourage you to visit the Pope and Young site and see there definitions of an acceptable bow for hunting. They do reconize my bow with all it's modern convienances as an acceptable bow! And yes it has changed as of late.

All I am saying is when the guys who began the push for an archery season began their push they did not intend for it to include crossbows. They wanted their own season seperate from the guns and they had it for a little while. Now guns that shoot bolts are legal!”


TOW - The “guys who began the push for an archery season began their push they did not intend for it to include” compounds either, did they?

The reason crossbows weren’t considered back then they were thought to be too powerful as opposed to the longbows and recurves of that day. Not true today. The compound bow has caught up with, and in many cases surpassed, the crossbow.

Pope and Young is the final word on what is and what isn’t archery equipment?  

Listen very closely – Pope and Young is just a *HUNTING CLUB*. Just like your “bow only” is a hunting CLUB. They get to make rules *ONLY* for their hunting club, just like you get to make rules *ONLY* for your hunting club. They can’t make rules for states or anyone else (thank goodness). Just like you cant make rules for other clubs. 

Pope and Young are not by themselves. There are many other BOWHUNTING groups that don't call crossbows archery. Why? To protect their own little playground. Just like you are trying to protect your own little hunting club playground. 

In the majority of the world the answer would be yes, crossbows are archery equipment. 

Only in the United States do you get some backwards bowhunting organizations that don't think that. Of course they are "protecting their own". 

THE NAA - the OLDEST archery organization have recognized crossbows for about 60 years. The International Bowhunters Organization has had a crossbow division for several years AND growing every year. THE NFAA now recognizes crossbows at its VEGAS championships. Atlantic City had crossbow divisions for years, that shoot was recently acquired by the NFAA, but its crossbow division is several decades old. 

The Archery Trade Association and its predecessor, the Archery Manufacturers Organization recognizes crossbows as archery equipment. 

So does most retail dealers- almost every shop that sells archery equipment and guns have crossbows in the archery department, not the firearm counter. Go into Bass Pro or Cabela’s or Dicks and see where the crossbows are kept. Hint - check out the ARCHERY section first to save time..

Every archery catalog I get from the retailers has crossbows in it. BOW and Arrow Magazine carries crossbow advertising. 

Now with compound bows - The International Olympic Committee doesn't recognize compounds as archery equipment. The PAN AMERICAN games don't recognize compounds as archery equipment. Neither does some of those ultra elitist, head up the butt, groups like Comptons. Comptons calls them MACHINES…

Why have crossbows been welcomed at NAA sanctioned shoots many years longer then the compound bow? Hmm? 

Several European countries don’t recognize any archery gear for hunting purpose. Thanks to bowhunters in England that complained that the crossbows were “inhumane” After a government study they ended up banning all archery hunting as “inhumane”. 

I don't think we want to head down that path.. 

A crossbow propels an arrow from the fastly forward moving string powered by a set of bent limbs. The trajectory of the arrow is VERY similar. On the end of that arrow is the same broadhead that you can shoot. It kills that deer from lung collapse and blood loss. 

*Sounds like archery to me.*


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## PWalls (Jan 8, 2005)

Flat foot,

I have hunted with a compound bow. Did for 4-5 years several years ago. An older PSE compound with very little let-off, no overdraw and aluminum arrows. Killed a deer. So, I have been there and done that. I was a man then and am still a man now. As I have said earlier, I got out of it (work issues) and now was able to get back in it this year. So, I purchased a bow that I had always wanted, an Excalibur Crossbow. Read my earlier posts.

As far as the kid. Awesome. I am all in favor of a child going hunting. And, for the record, I bet he would just as respected if he was hunting with a crossbow. Most people (probably not you or Randy) would respect that kid for just being there regardless of what he is hunting with. Just like I hope your daughter does get big enough to hunt next year or year after. I will be proud of her for just going hunting, regardless of weapon again. As far as one up on me, I didn't realize we were in any sort of competition.

What is really sad is the prejudices and negativity of people like Randy and Flatfoot. They use baseless fact/opinions to spread their attitudes. I am glad that most people are not like them. It does real good when Antis see all the division in the hunting ranks that their elitism (I absolutely love that word now, thanks Randy) causes.

Let me relate a story. I hunt in a club where all the bowhunters use Matthews bows (except for one of the older gentlemen who uses an older Horton Crossbow). There aint another bow manufacturer there. Well, this year, I showed up with my brand new Excalibur Crossbow. One or two of them ribbed me for buying a crossbow as they thought I should have bought a Matthews (more from wanting to see another Matthews than anything else). I didn't receive any death threats or negativity. They were just happy to see me bow hunting again (although, since I am normally the camp cook, it could have been the better meals at night that had something to do with it). I was worried a little at first about being exluded from any fellowship, but that never happened.

Like I have said, any compound bow hunter calling a crossbow hunter less of a hunter because of the equipment is the pot calling the kettle black. Go back to the old cedar arrows and recurve bow and finger release, in other words "traditional" bow hunting, and you would have an argument.

TOW, great post.


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## flat foot (Jan 8, 2005)

Green as long as you don't judge me.


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## flat foot (Jan 8, 2005)

Ok here it is, I think and it sounds like mostly just me. Some wear in the rule system we have to draw a line and stop. I went to the GA rules meeting in Perry. They said that there is a proposed rule change for Muzzelloader's allowing Scopes. I just don't think that is a Primitave weapon at that point. What is next, buying the deer with a radio collar that is assigned to you from Wal-mart there needs to be a line drawn. I just think, if a animal can be harvested by legal means in its peticular season, and still can't be counted for a harvest record (Pope & Young) for that season, it should not be there.

  I am done typeing on this thread, Sorry if my opinion has created dislike. I don't want anyone to feel that way to me, Life is to Short. So guys have a good season by what ever legal means possiable, I might be there too some day. Hope to see you in the Wood's friends, maybe I can help you drag out a big'un.


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## leo (Jan 8, 2005)

*Quick ques Flat foot*

before you go please  



> I just don't think that is a Primitave weapon at that point



Do you feel that the MZ's allowed now are "primitive weapons"?

I realize this is straying from the threads topic, but thought I would ask  

thanks

leo


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## flat foot (Jan 8, 2005)

I do think a muzzeloader is (percution cap or flint lock) a primitave weapon, but with out a scope. I think a bow is a primitave weapon, but without he cross in it (Crossbow). I don't think a crossbow is because it is not accepted by Pope & Young, and was not  naturaly or natively used in America for hunting in bowseason or the past. A compound is used in simular fation as my long bow.  Have a good one.


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## TOW (Jan 8, 2005)

flat foot said:
			
		

> I do think a muzzeloader is (percution cap or flint lock) a primitave weapon, but with out a scope. I think a bow is a primitave weapon, but without he cross in it (Crossbow). I don't think a crossbow is because it is not accepted by Pope & Young, and was not  naturaly or natively used in America for hunting in bowseason or the past. A compound is used in simular fation as my long bow.  Have a good one.



So you believe that a rifle scope that was invented back in the mid 1800s and finally perfected in 1880 is not primitive but a compound bow that was invented and patented in the late 1960s is primitive??

Do you also believe that a piece of archery euipment that was invented in the 4th century BC is not primitive but a compound bow that was invented and patented in the late 1960s is primitive??

Are you aware that the inline muzzleloader is not the recent invention of Mr. Knight? That technology dates back to the mid 1700s. 

It seems to me that you and Randy have myopic vision because these differ from what YOU want. IOW - If one doesn't hunt like you do and/or use the equipment that you do then they are wrong.. Pretty sad thinking..


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## PWalls (Jan 8, 2005)

Once again, TOW, you have hit the nail on the head.


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## GeauxLSU (Jan 8, 2005)

When I was taught to fish by my father, it was at my uncles farm pond from the bank, with a cane pole and catalpa worms.  Then we 'stepped up' to a 14' flat bottom john boat.  I remember when we added an 18hp evinrude stick steer to it.  Man we were something! I tried to wear out a Zebco or two in it.  
You know, today, with the fiberglass bass boats, and 200 hp 4 cycle engines and electronic fish finders (not just depth finders but FISH finders) 10 bearing reels, scent soft (real soft) plastics etc... etc... it's hardly the same sport anymore.  Not much sport left really.  I mean, the boats drive like cars (especially with hot foots).  They really are more CAR than BOAT now.  The "International Dugout Canoe Assocation" doesn't even recognize them nor does the Olympic Sports association for any of their events....
How much money do those guys make on the B.A.S.S. circuit make, especially the winners?  
What happened to the TRADITION?  
I'll stop now, hopefully the point is extended.
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## flat foot (Jan 8, 2005)

OK TOW your selective reading is pretty awesome. Read the whole post, and previousposts before you get spun up like a WWII horn. The info was posted to support the previous posts do some back reading put them together and maybe just maybe you will see the light that was said or ment. All that was ment is some wear we need to draw a line on what is accepted for hunting pratices. You believe what you want and I will do the same. I don't believe if a weapon is not accepted by a scoring Organization Pope & Young It should not be considered in that respected season. I am not saying that they should not be used in hunting pratices all together just used with there simular weapon which is a weapon that is shouldered as well. 

 I just came back from a rules commitee for my state here in GA. The DNR Rep said that bowhunters could not use a eletronic sight on there bows (laser, or Red Dot). Which I am happy about, but there is a proposed rule to allow scopes on muzzeloaders it just seems like we are making it so easy for hunters to use anything they can to hunt. Which if you think on down the road, and of how many accidents we currently have we don't need people in the woods like this. We need people whom are going to practice as long as it takes, before getting into the woods. Not make easier for lazy people to get out there and gut shoot a deer. That is why most of my posts are geared to not liking crossbows. Because if someone is to lazy to get out, and get ready for the season. Just pick up the crossbow and go it was ready last year "right". If there work ethics are this week I only wonder how there hunting ethics are? 

   I'm not saying all crossbow hunters are lazy, just that the new laws are allowing this to happen, I have left hunting clubs for people that do this, never get ready for the season and just go. I have tried to sit and talk but if help is not welcomed it will not help.  You guys have a good one!


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## flat foot (Jan 8, 2005)

*Bowbender*

Bow bender go to bowsite.com Illinois forum and read the headache you and your state are about to go through. I hope you sitting back looking in has been fun because you state is about to get hammered.


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## TOW (Jan 8, 2005)

Yes, a line needs to be drawn somewhere BUT that line needs to be drawn with facts not someone's or some external clubs personal dislikes.

The Pope and Young Club, as well as anyone else, may have input into the state's rule setting decisions but they do not MAKE RULES for anyone EXCEPT their club members.

You post is support of some other posts is what I am referring to. You've basically said in that post that the crossbows and scopes were not primitive. Almost in the same breath you said the compound bow was. What gives there??

What exactly is your *definition* for "primitive"? Give us the criteria for judging what is "primitive", not what piece of equipment that you believe is and is not "primitive". Is it a certain date of coming into being? Is it just what you and Randy says it is? 

Scopes on any hunting tool is a very good idea. Do you want people to be more safe and hit what they are aiming at? Then you should be fighting for the allowance of scopes. With scopes you can aim at a hair on the deer instead of blanking out the whole shoulder with the front sight. As the average age of hunters is going up and up it is an excellent idea to give them better downrange vision of their intended target. Just because scopes are allowed is no sign that anyone HAS to use a scope. You can still go "primitive" with your open sights. I see this as you and a few other attempting to impose your will on the way others want to hunt. 

Please don't give me that "lazy" business again. Lazy is as lazy does. I've been a bowhunter too many years to know that not everyone practices enough NO MATTER WHAT PIECE OF EQUIPMENT THEY USE. A very large percentage of "bowhunters" never pick up their bow until a week or two before season to practice. As soon as season is over it's hung back on the wall until a week or two before next season.

Your attack on the "ethics" of any other hunter that doesn't hunt with your approved hunting weapon is appalling to say the least. You may think that you are helping hunting by declaring that other's ethics are suspect when they hunt with a crossbow but you are not. That is the kind of stuff that causes further riffs in the hunting fraternity. Much to the delight of the animal rights freaks.

Ethics are very personal and have absolutely NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT HUNTING WEAPON IS IN OUR HANDS.


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## flat foot (Jan 8, 2005)

Tow,
 If you would read the post again don't read it to the point of the DNA build up of the finest atom read it for what it is, not what you want it to be. You are right it is my opinion, but I am not imposing it on anyone else if you think so, please for the sake of everyone rethink.  Read the last statement of post, twice if needed.
 I will Help. It starts with "I'm not saying every crossbow hunter is Lazy" This is a forum, so everything inputed to it is in a form of an opinion everyone don't have a conspiracy theory behind what they talk about, relax Sir.  All good fun and opinions this is how we learn as people through one another. 

   I will let you have the last word. I hope your future seasons are awesome, and hope I can help you drag a big one out some day.


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## TOW (Jan 8, 2005)

What I am saying is that for a person who lives in a glass house you sure like to keep a pocket of rocks to toss against others.

You sit there and take pot shots at crossbowers and then say "I didn't mean all of them".

You failed to answer the questions - *What exactly is your definition for "primitive"? Give us the criteria  for judging what is "primitive", not what piece of equipment that you believe is and is not "primitive".*

You cant just sit there and say,"Yes, that is primitive. No that isn't primitive." That makes it JUST YOUR OPINION. Back it up with facts or your opinion means squat. the "I don't like it" is not a good criteria.

Give us the criteria for being primitive..


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## flat foot (Jan 8, 2005)

Are you looking for a date, that is opinionated.
  Are you looking for thought's on a weapon or even the equiptment that goes on it, that is as well.

  Sorry my friend every time somthing is wrote here, you seem the need to tell people how they should think or how wrong they are, but that is just how we are, so I will leave you to decide for yourself. See you in the Woods.


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## TOW (Jan 8, 2005)

flat foot said:
			
		

> Are you looking for a date, that is opinionated.
> Are you looking for thought's on a weapon or even the equiptment that goes on it, that is as well.................



That is what I thought.. No facts, just your opinion..


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## Fishman (Jan 11, 2005)

Randy I have had this same argument with a traditional bow  hunter.  He believes that all compound bows are unethical and only long bow and recurve bows should be used in archery season.  Sounds just like your argument about crossbows.  Any bow that you can shoot better than another is the best choice, that my friend is ethical hunting.


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