# Would you?



## StriperrHunterr (Aug 28, 2014)

Engage in hypocrisy of your belief for the benefit of a friend/family? 

That's it, no special qualifiers, no further exposition. Just that question, cut and dry. 

Yes/No answers only please.


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## JB0704 (Aug 28, 2014)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Yes/No answers only please.



Impossible given the question.


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## StriperrHunterr (Aug 28, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> Impossible given the question.



Not at all. If you can imagine yourself doing it in even one scenario the answer is yes. If you can't imagine ever doing it the answer is no. 

I know there's a tendency in this subforum to convolute and over-complicate questions/answers, but this isn't one of them, IMO.


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## bullethead (Aug 28, 2014)

I voted yes.
One example would be when asked to be the Godfather of a child and having to go through the pomp and circumstance in order to make it official.


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## StriperrHunterr (Aug 28, 2014)

bullethead said:


> I voted yes.
> One example would be when asked to be the Godfather of a child and having to go through the pomp and circumstance in order to make it official.



Thank you for keeping it simple. 

There is no greater point to this thread than to answer a question I've had lately.


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## WaltL1 (Aug 28, 2014)

Not sure how to answer.
In the Catholic Church, the family can request a "remembrance" type prayer thing where basically the priest offers up a prayer for departed family. I go to those services with family on the anniversary of both my grandmothers and grandfathers death. Interestingly enough, I don't think my grandfather ever set foot in a church while my grandmother was a DEVOUT Catholic. 
Me being Agnostic, Im not sure whether that would be classified as hypocrisy or not?


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## StriperrHunterr (Aug 28, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> Not sure how to answer.
> In the Catholic Church, the family can request a "remembrance" type prayer thing where basically the priest offers up a prayer for departed family. I go to those services with family on the anniversary of both my grandmothers and grandfathers death. Interestingly enough, I don't think my grandfather ever set foot in a church while my grandmother was a DEVOUT Catholic.
> Me being Agnostic, Im not sure whether that would be classified as hypocrisy or not?



I would classify it as such, which is why I asked this. There's nothing wrong with being a hypocrite if done for the right reasons, IMO. I went to the service for my grandmother when she passed and participated in everything but communion (using the excuse that someone had to stay with my sister's kids in the pews while they did.) I was a hypocrite for my mom in her time of need.


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## JB0704 (Aug 28, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> Me being Agnostic, Im not sure whether that would be classified as hypocrisy or not?



When it comes to beliefs, I'm not sure an agnostic can be hypocritical.

I'd like to add, there's nothing wrong with supporting your family and loved ones.  Believers expect this of non-believers more than the other way around.  It's that way because there is not really a bunch of skeptic traditions which are observed on a large scale.

I think if my kids ever converted to another religion, I would still attend their weddings, etc.  That wouldn't be hypocritical, that would be me being there for my kids.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 28, 2014)

I wore a yarmulke at a Jewish funeral once.


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## StriperrHunterr (Aug 28, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> When it comes to beliefs, I'm not sure an agnostic can be hypocritical.
> 
> I'd like to add, there's nothing wrong with supporting your family and loved ones.  Believers expect this of non-believers more than the other way around.  It's that way because there is not really a bunch of skeptic traditions which are observed on a large scale.
> 
> I think if my kids ever converted to another religion, I would still attend their weddings, etc.  That wouldn't be hypocritical, that would be me being there for my kids.



That's not a violation of the first commandment, if they offer up a prayer to their god and you join in?


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## JB0704 (Aug 28, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> I wore a yarmulke at a Jewish funeral once.



I know a baptist deacon who wore one at a bar mitzvah.


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## JB0704 (Aug 28, 2014)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> That's not a violation of the first commandment, if they offer up a prayer to their god and you join in?



A) No. B) I would pray to God as a Christian.

If they asked me to get up front and give a Jewish/Buddhist/wicken/whatever sermon or prayer, I would abstain.  However, that would be a ridiculous request.

There's nothing wrong with standing with your friends and loved ones.  People should not ask each other to temporarily convert, but asking somebody to be present is reasonable, and reasonable people go.


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## StriperrHunterr (Aug 28, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> A) No. B) I would pray to God as a Christian.
> 
> If they asked me to get up front and give a Jewish/Buddhist/wicken/whatever sermon or prayer, I would abstain.  However, that would be a ridiculous request.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with standing with your friends and loved ones.  People should not ask each other to temporarily convert, but asking somebody to be present is reasonable, and reasonable people go.



And those reasonable people are hypocrites to their own beliefs, IMO. 

Maybe the snag is the word hypocrite, I don't know. 

However, I see even attending as a matter of temporary conversion, just for good reasons.


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## JB0704 (Aug 28, 2014)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Maybe the snag is the word hypocrite, I don't know.



I think so.  To me, the better question is "would you temporarily set aside your differences to support a friend or loved one?"

Sure, I would.  The long-term consequences of being stubborn far outweigh the short-term victory for ideological purity.

BTW, I know a man who boycotted two of his kids' weddings for various reasons.  Ultimately, he recognized how big of an idiot move that was.....but the damage was done.


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## Dr. Strangelove (Aug 28, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> )
> 
> There's nothing wrong with standing with your friends and loved ones.  People should not ask each other to temporarily convert, but asking somebody to be present is reasonable, and reasonable people go.



Agreed


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## StriperrHunterr (Aug 28, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> I think so.  To me, the better question is "would you temporarily set aside your differences to support a friend or loved one?"
> 
> Sure, I would.  The long-term consequences of being stubborn far outweigh the short-term victory for ideological purity.
> 
> BTW, I know a man who boycotted two of his kids' weddings for various reasons.  Ultimately, he recognized how big of an idiot move that was.....but the damage was done.



I agree. 

But look at the definition:



> noun
> 1.
> a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, especially a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
> 2.
> *a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, especially one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements*.



I'm not using it in the derogatory connotation of hypocrite. I'm using it in the literal, feigning one belief system while possessing another, regardless of reasons sense as the definition lays out.


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## JB0704 (Aug 28, 2014)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> I'm using it in the literal, feigning one belief system while possessing another, regardless of reasons sense as the definition lays out.



We might disagree as to what constitutes feigning.

.....and I'm draggin this thread off into areas unintended.  Apologies.


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## StriperrHunterr (Aug 28, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> We might disagree as to what constitutes feigning.



How deep does the semantic rabbit hole go in order to avoid admitting hypocrisy?


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## StriperrHunterr (Aug 28, 2014)

I also note, JB, that you haven't voted no on the premise of rationalizations discounting claims of hypocrisy. I'd be curious to find out why.


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## JB0704 (Aug 28, 2014)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> How deep does the semantic rabbit hole go in order to avoid admitting hypocrisy?



I'll admit hypocracy if I believe I am being hypocritical.  In the examples I have read on here, in this thread and plenty of others, my take was that the person being called a hypocrit was actually just being a good dad/friend/loved one.  And, I hate to hear people put down for doing the right thing.


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## StriperrHunterr (Aug 28, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> I'll admit hypocracy if I believe I am being hypocritical.  In the examples I have read on here, in this thread and plenty of others, my take was that the person being called a hypocrit was actually just being a good dad/friend/loved one.  And, I hate to hear people put down for doing the right thing.



Who said anything about being put down?


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## JB0704 (Aug 28, 2014)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> I also note, JB, that you haven't voted no on the premise of rationalizations discounting claims of hypocrisy. I'd be curious to find out why.



Thinking through it.

One extreme example I can think of is a religious genocide, where being Christian would cause my kids harm if I did not feign assimilation.  In such a case, I would probably fake it while trying to find an avenue of escape.  But, that is extreme, and not sure if it is hypocracy more than survival.


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## StriperrHunterr (Aug 28, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> Thinking through it.
> 
> One extreme example I can think of is a religious genocide, where being Christian would cause my kids harm if I did not feign assimilation.  In such a case, I would probably fake it while trying to find an avenue of escape.  But, that is extreme, and not sure if it is hypocracy more than survival.



Rationalization than recognition, I'd say.


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## JB0704 (Aug 28, 2014)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Who said anything about being put down?



You weren't part of some of the threads we have had on this topic in the past.  They got ugly.


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## JB0704 (Aug 28, 2014)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Rationalization than recognition, I'd say.



So, I'm not sure how to vote given the intent of the question.  As I said up front, "yes/no" doesn't really work for this question.


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## WaltL1 (Aug 28, 2014)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> I would classify it as such, which is why I asked this. There's nothing wrong with being a hypocrite if done for the right reasons, IMO. I went to the service for my grandmother when she passed and participated in everything but communion (using the excuse that someone had to stay with my sister's kids in the pews while they did.) I was a hypocrite for my mom in her time of need.


I went ahead and voted yes based on you knowing my circumstances and it fitting your criteria of hypocritical.
If nothing else its certainly hypocritical that its the only time I go to church whether I leave open the possibility of a god or not.


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## StriperrHunterr (Aug 28, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> So, I'm not sure how to vote given the intent of the question.  As I said up front, "yes/no" doesn't really work for this question.



It does if you look at it dispassionately. You've admitting to hypocrisy, by definition, no less than 1 time in this thread. You just have rationalizations you accept in order to classify it as being "reasonable" or a "good person" than "hypocritical" because you've got a negative stigma associated with that word. 

I don't like to be called a hypocrite, either, but sometimes the shoe does fit; as it does in cases where I go to church, despite being a non-believer, for the benefit of those I love and care about.

Corrected the number of admissions since I re-read and noticed you mentioned the pastor, and not yourself. My bad.


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## StriperrHunterr (Aug 28, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> I went ahead and voted yes based on you knowing my circumstances and it fitting your criteria of hypocritical.
> If nothing else its certainly hypocritical that its the only time I go to church whether I leave open the possibility of a god or not.



Thanks, but it's Webster's criteria of hypocrisy, not mine.


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## WaltL1 (Aug 28, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> So, I'm not sure how to vote given the intent of the question.  As I said up front, "yes/no" doesn't really work for this question.


I definitely see your point. You physically being "somewhere" doesn't necessarily change or even suspend what you believe.


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## JB0704 (Aug 28, 2014)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Who said anything about being put down?



Read through this thread if you have time......

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=619790&highlight=went+daughter


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## JB0704 (Aug 28, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> I definitely see your point. You physically being "somewhere" doesn't necessarily change or even suspend what you believe.



Where he and I differ is whether being present, or even wearing yarmulkes constitutes feigning.  I don't.  I think it constitutes support.


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## StriperrHunterr (Aug 28, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> Read through this thread if you have time......
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=619790&highlight=went+daughter



I read the first page, it's all I really can spare time for today, but that glances the topic at hand. 

I do agree with this being wrong:



Huntinfool said:


> I do have one more question for you and I don't mean this the way it's going to sound, so forgive me.
> 
> 
> Do you think it hypocritical to have allowed that dedication or to have even participate in it (assuming you don't consider yourself the leader of your house)?
> ...



It's one thing to go through the motions on your own that have no consequence, but teaching your children to be hypocritical with the oaths they make is bad. 

Still, that's a discussion for when they are older about the complications that arise with being tolerant of, and participant in, belief systems you may not agree with to do the "right" thing by those you love. 

It doesn't alleviate the label of hypocrisy, just illustrates another facet rather than the negative connotation that it almost singularly gets.


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## StriperrHunterr (Aug 28, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> Where he and I differ is whether being present, or even wearing yarmulkes constitutes feigning.  I don't.  I think it constitutes support.



It is supportive, but in contravention with your own beliefs. Unless you wear that yarmulke at other events that aren't specifically Jewish, even though you, yourself, aren't Jewish. That's the feigning aspect. 


verb (used with object)
1.
to represent fictitiously; *put on an appearance of*:
to feign sickness.
2.
to invent fictitiously or deceptively, as a story or an excuse.
3.
to imitate deceptively:
to feign another's voice.


You appear Jewish, but you are not. There's no malice implied with that definition, either. So I have yet to see why there's an aversion to admitting hypocrisy when the definitions agree with the label.


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## JB0704 (Aug 28, 2014)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> It is supportive, but in contravention with your own beliefs. Unless you wear that yarmulke at other events that aren't specifically Jewish, even though you, yourself, aren't Jewish. That's the feigning aspect.
> 
> 
> verb (used with object)
> ...



Ok, under those criteria, if wearing a yarmulke is hypocritical, I would definitely be a hypocrit if I'm ever in a situation where folks ask me to wear one.

We'll call it "hypocritish."


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## StriperrHunterr (Aug 28, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> Ok, under those criteria, if wearing a yarmulke is hypocritical, I would definitely be a hypocrit if I'm ever in a situation where folks ask me to wear one.
> 
> We'll call it "hypocritish."



If that helps you sleep tonight, brother.


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## WaltL1 (Aug 28, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> Ok, under those criteria, if wearing a yarmulke is hypocritical, I would definitely be a hypocrit if I'm ever in a situation where folks ask me to wear one.
> 
> We'll call it "hypocritish."


Actually I was going to say I do see wearing the yarmulke as being different than just being there. 
I think I agree that at the point you are "representing" something different than what you believe in a way that just being there does not.
Maybe


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## bullethead (Aug 28, 2014)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> I agree.
> 
> But look at the definition:
> 
> ...



That is why I used the Godfather example.
I had to stand at the Altar and make promises to and through God to be a participant in my Godchild's life.
When in reality I would and already do those things anyway... but had to go through the _scripted_ responses in the ceremony in order to be a part of and get through the ceremony.


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## StriperrHunterr (Aug 28, 2014)

bullethead said:


> That is why I used the Godfather example.
> I had to stand at the Altar and make promises to and through God to be a participant in my Godchild's life.
> When in reality I would and already do those things anyway... but had to go through the _scripted_ responses in the ceremony in order to be a part of and get through the ceremony.



I hear ya.


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## 660griz (Aug 28, 2014)

I do it all the time. My entire family is Christian. I bow my head when grace is said. etc.


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## ambush80 (Aug 28, 2014)

660griz said:


> I do it all the time. My entire family is Christian. I bow my head when grace is said. etc.



I don't if I don't feel like it.  Everyone who cares doesn't see me looking around anyways.

My mother and in laws know that at my house at dinner time we just sit down and dig in. No one has tried to offer a prayer. 

I've worn a yammy-cap at a Jewish wedding.  I thought of it more of a polite  inconvenience, like wearing a tie or dress shoes.


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## JB0704 (Aug 28, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> My mother and in laws know that at my house at dinner time we just sit down and dig in. No one has tried to offer a prayer.



That is them being polite in your home, same as you guys do when you bow your head at other's home.  I guess that would fall into this threads definition of hypocritical as well.


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## StriperrHunterr (Aug 28, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> That is them being polite in your home, same as you guys do when you bow your head at other's home.  I guess that would fall into this threads definition of hypocritical as well.



It would. They could probably get away with a private quiet prayer all to themselves, and the OP probably wouldn't care in the least.


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## JB0704 (Aug 28, 2014)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> It would. They could probably get away with a private quiet prayer all to themselves, and the OP probably wouldn't care in the least.



That's most likely what they do if they are anything like most Christians I know.


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## StriperrHunterr (Aug 28, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> That's most likely what they do if they are anything like most Christians I know.



Same here, and there's nothing wrong with either approach. I'm just calling a turnip a turnip since I confronted more of my own turnip status as of late.


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## ambush80 (Aug 28, 2014)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> It would. They could probably get away with a private quiet prayer all to themselves, and the OP probably wouldn't care in the least.



I hate the rituals especially when done in public.

There was a guy having lunch at a bar today who made a big deal about praying.  

Made me a little angry.


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## StriperrHunterr (Aug 28, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> I hate the rituals especially when done in public.
> 
> There was a guy having lunch at a bar today who made a big deal about praying.
> 
> Made me a little angry.



So he went into a bar, a bar, at lunch and wanted it to be quiet so he could pray in peace? 

Ooooookay.


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## JB0704 (Aug 28, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> Made me a little angry.



That's an interesting response.  Did you feel as if he was trying to convert you?

Also, was he drinking?


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## ambush80 (Aug 28, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> That's an interesting response.  Did you feel as if he was trying to convert you?
> 
> Also, was he drinking?




He wasn't drinking, but when he was done he looked around like he wanted to see who saw him.


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## gemcgrew (Aug 28, 2014)

I voted no, but I may behave differently around an individual, for their benefit.


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## StriperrHunterr (Aug 28, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> I voted no, but I may behave differently around an individual, for their benefit.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but that sounds like, "I voted no, but I really mean yes, under certain circumstances." 

Thanks for replying.


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## ambush80 (Aug 28, 2014)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> So he went into a bar, a bar, at lunch and wanted it to be quiet so he could pray in peace?
> 
> Ooooookay.



Nah, Man.  He just sat at the bar, got his food, bowed his head, clasped his hands, and mumbled.  Then he looked up and looked ALL around.  He probably saw me looking at him like he was a d-bag.


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## gemcgrew (Aug 28, 2014)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but that sounds like, "I voted no, but I really mean yes, under certain circumstances."
> 
> Thanks for replying.


It is a Biblical doctrine. So my belief requires it under certain circumstances. In other words, even though I may alter my behavior, I am still true to my belief.


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## StriperrHunterr (Aug 28, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> It is a Biblical doctrine. So my belief requires it under certain circumstances. In other words, even though I may alter my behavior, I am still true to my belief.



Where is that located? Not doubting you, just curious where the doctrine of the bible requires one to be hypocritical. That would be new for me.


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## StriperrHunterr (Aug 28, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> Nah, Man.  He just sat at the bar, got his food, bowed his head, clasped his hands, and mumbled.  Then he looked up and looked ALL around.  He probably saw me looking at him like he was a d-bag.


Ah.


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## gemcgrew (Aug 28, 2014)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Where is that located? Not doubting you, just curious where the doctrine of the bible requires one to be hypocritical. That would be new for me.


Romans 14. I have liberty to smoke a cigarette and have a beer. My dad, however, does not have such freedom. He views it as sin always. If I smoke or drink around him, it causes him to sin, by way of judging me. So I may change my normal behavior when in his company, so as to not encourage his sin.

I am not being hypocritical to my belief. The Bible encourages this, at least when in the presence of another believer.


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## StriperrHunterr (Aug 28, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Romans 14. I have liberty to smoke a cigarette and have a beer. My dad, however, does not have such freedom. He views it as sin always. If I smoke or drink around him, it causes him to sin, by way of judging me. So I may change my normal behavior when in his company, so as to not encourage his sin.
> 
> I am not being hypocritical to my belief. The Bible encourages this, at least when in the presence of another believer.



Thank you, I'll look at this more tomorrow because I like the conundrum it presents.


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## Israel (Aug 28, 2014)

Love works no ill toward its neighbor.


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## Dr. Strangelove (Aug 29, 2014)

I voted no, because I don't believe that showing respect to family/friends compromises my non-beliefs.

My ex-wife was amazed I recited the Lord's prayer (along with the rest of my family) at my grandmother's funeral.  She didn't know I knew it, both in French and English, btw.  I did it to honor my grandmother, who was fully aware of my heathen status.

I will hold hands and bow my head at a dinner table in respect to my family/friends who choose to pray before dinner, but I do respectfully decline if asked to lead the prayer.

Showing a little respect doesn't make one a hypocrite.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Aug 29, 2014)

When the Nazis knock at the door and ask if there are any Jews inside, I will lie, even though I understand that lying is generally evil.


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## ambush80 (Aug 29, 2014)

Dr. Strangelove said:


> I voted no, because I don't believe that showing respect to family/friends compromises my non-beliefs.
> 
> My ex-wife was amazed I recited the Lord's prayer (along with the rest of my family) at my grandmother's funeral.  She didn't know I knew it, both in French and English, btw.  I did it to honor my grandmother, who was fully aware of my heathen status.
> 
> ...



My father in law asked me to say grace at Thanksgiving before I married his daughter.  I think he was just messing with me. Anyway, I said this:

"For the things we are about to receive let us truly be grateful and in this time of bounty let us remember those less fortunate than us.  Dig in."


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## JB0704 (Aug 29, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> He wasn't drinking, but when he was done he looked around like he wanted to see who saw him.



Could'a been his "bar ministry."  There are churches that meet in bars on Sunday mornings.  It's kind-of becoming a "thing."  I can see where it is viewed as condescending.


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## JB0704 (Aug 29, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> Actually I was going to say I do see wearing the yarmulke as being different than just being there.
> I think I agree that at the point you are "representing" something different than what you believe in a way that just being there does not.
> Maybe



Whatever label it's given, I think it should also be labeled polite or respectful.  It's the golden rule in action. 

If that's hypocrit-ish, so be it


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## StriperrHunterr (Aug 29, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> Whatever label it's given, I think it should also be labeled polite or respectful.  It's the golden rule in action.
> 
> If that's hypocrit-ish, so be it



I don't disagree that it's respectful, the golden rule, or even the right thing to do. I just think we also need to recognize that hypocrite isn't a swear word.


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## StriperrHunterr (Aug 29, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Romans 14. I have liberty to smoke a cigarette and have a beer. My dad, however, does not have such freedom. He views it as sin always. If I smoke or drink around him, it causes him to sin, by way of judging me. So I may change my normal behavior when in his company, so as to not encourage his sin.
> 
> I am not being hypocritical to my belief. The Bible encourages this, at least when in the presence of another believer.



19-21, right?


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## 660griz (Aug 29, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> I don't if I don't feel like it.  Everyone who cares doesn't see me looking around anyways.
> 
> My mother and in laws know that at my house at dinner time we just sit down and dig in. No one has tried to offer a prayer.
> 
> I've worn a yammy-cap at a Jewish wedding.  I thought of it more of a polite  inconvenience, like wearing a tie or dress shoes.



Now that I think about it. I want to change my answer.
For my definition of hypocritical, I am not.  
I don't close my eyes or pray. I only bow at family functions that are not in my house(funerals).


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## StriperrHunterr (Aug 29, 2014)

I could be wrong in calling myself a hypocrite, too. By the definitions I don't think I am, but I've been wrong before.


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## Israel (Aug 29, 2014)




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## StriperrHunterr (Aug 29, 2014)

Israel said:


>



That's what made me think of this, in conjunction with my own life. 

I keep coming back to that, but this movie is one of my all-time favorites. You guys have even shown me layers I didn't know existed.


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## ambush80 (Aug 29, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> Could'a been his "bar ministry."  There are churches that meet in bars on Sunday mornings.  It's kind-of becoming a "thing."  I can see where it is viewed as condescending.



Nah.  He was by himself.  He looked like a tool.


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## WaltL1 (Aug 29, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> Nah.  He was by himself.  He looked like a tool.


Well which one was it, a d-bag or a tool?


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## NCHillbilly (Aug 29, 2014)

I don't know if I would define it as hypocricy so much as plain old having respect for others beliefs. I am not particularly religious, but several members of my family are, and I respect that. I will bow my head for prayers, say grace if asked to, and don't drink around folks who don't believe in it, unless they're at my house. I will respect anyone's beliefs as long as someone doesn't try to force-feed them to me.


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