# Best Muzzle Loader



## thericcardgrp

I bow hunt and gun hunt. I have never used a muzzle loader. I am looking for the easiest muzzle loader to use and clean. If price did not matter (which it does ) what would your choice of muzzle loader be and for what reasons ? Thanks for the help in advance.


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## BarnesAddict

T/C Impact would be my choice, although there are other choices.  Its a simple rifle and has a Blackhorn 209 capable breech plug, where some other rifles require an aftermarket plug.

However the question is like asking rather someone's a GM, Ford, or Chrysler person.


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## TJay

If you can locate a gently used TC Omega they are a great muzzleloader!


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## dwinsor

This is a lot of information for you to take in, I wish I had it when I got into muzzleloading.  One thing you may find out, is when people give you advice about loads for you to try, your gun may not shoot the bullet and powder combinations some other people are shooting.  That is not a bad thing, they probably didn’t lie to you, and you just have to vary other bullets, powders, sabots, or volume of your charges.  One of the best ways to do this is with advice from people that have the same manufacture and model of muzzleloader as you.  Changing one thing may put you where you want to be, over time a lot of people find out what normally works.  Don’t discount advice unless you have tried it and the advice just doesn’t work for you.  Just because the manual for your gun does not recommend doing something, doesn’t mean another manufacture recommends the same thing.  Read the manufactures manual for the muzzleloader you purchase.  The recommendations of the manufacturer should be followed, a suggestion and a recommendation are two different things, and in my manual for my Accura V2 CVA recommends you try several powder and bullet combinations.  For my Accura V2 CVA says do not use saboted bullets of over 300 grains.  CVA says do not use a conical bullet weighing over 400 grains.  See the difference, those statements on bullet weight are not negotiable.  I have known a lot of people that do it, I might let them know but I have to remember it is their gun and their responsibility not mine.  I might stand way back when they shoot their gun like that.  CVA says for 150 grains of powder they recommend pellets for powder, not that you can’t shoot a powder, CVA says loose powder does not burn as efficient as pellets in magnum loads in the 150 grain range.  I have had a load that using magnum charges just didn’t work out, if I wanted to I could try pellets instead.  Actually I like loose powder, “BH 209” if a bullet won’t work with it between 100 and 110 grains of BH 209 I probably would not shoot it.  Here is the response from Traditions about which of their guns use BH 209  =Thank you for contacting us with your inquiry regarding which of our firearms can use the Blackhorn 209 powder.   Our Vortek Strikerfire 209 models, Vortek 209 models, Pursuit 209 models and Buckstalker models are all designed with the closed breech system and can use Blackhorn 209 powders effectively.  We have done extensive shooting with Blackhorn 209 powder in these models and have been very satisfied with the nice tight consistent groups as well as the benefit of being such a clean burning powder in these models.  We ypically use the Federal 209A primers with this powder.   Now you should have an idea of what muzzleloading is all about, when in doubt always check with the manufacture of the muzzleloader you purchase, stay within the manufactures recommendations and you can’t go wrong.

Use the information you need,    forget the rest.        Rifle Manufactures, and models are at the bottom of this page.
POWDER:
 I would check and see what the mfg. recommends for any gun you select, FF or FFF, you can call the Manufacture and ask them before you buy a gun.    Or read the manual after you buy the gun.

 Here is an explanation of different powders   http://www.chuckhawks.com/blackpowder_roundup_2010.htm       one powder I would recommend, is Western Powders Blackhorn 209:   http://www.blackhorn209.com  I have shot them all and BH 209 is the best.  The powder is so potent that the manufacture recommends 120 grains as the maximum charge, even if the gun you purchase is designed to shoot 150 grains of other substitutes.  Some older guns are not designed to shoot BH 209 or 150 grains of other substitutes.  Here is the link to Western powders BH 209 article by Randy Wakeman, I don’t agree with everything he says but it will give you a good Idea of BH 209. http://www.chuckhawks.com/most_blackhorn_209.htm.    One thing, If you decide to get a CVA and shoot BH 209, You need to buy a Blackhorn 209 breech plug from CVA      http://www.cva.com/CVA-store.php?shop=Black Horn QR Breech Plugs#l     or a western Powders BH 209 breech plug for CVA  guns. https://www.westernpowders.com/  The  Accura V2 CVA BH 209 plug takes a 1/8” drill bit to clean the carbon out of the flash channel (area under the primer), the OEM CVA Breech Plug, which is designed to shoot pellets, it takes .116 or a #32 drill bit, other models may vary drill bit size.  The western powders breech plug for CVA comes with the proper drill bit.  My T/C Pro Hunter came factory ready for BH 209 or any other powder or pellet, it takes a 1/8” drill bit (SIZE COMPLEMENTS OF ENCORE) to clean the flash channel, and other T/C Models may take a different drill bit size.   Here is a link for tools to clean the flash channel and the flash hole in a breech plug.   (FREE SHIPPING)    http://www.plugcleaner.com/   you adjust the collar in the kit to keep the drill bit off the flash hole.   If the kit listed does not have your drill bit size call 440-238-6050 or e-mail them at P-bar@att.net.   If you just want to use a drill bit wrap electrical tape around the shank of the bit until you can grip the bit firmly, then twist it in the flash channel using only finger pressure, about once every 6 shots.  Be careful as too much pressure could damage the flash hole.  Also not enough pressure will not clean the carbon out near the flash hole.   Carbon can be very hard.                                  
 Randy says to use an electric drill every 100 shots! I would not do this, you would probably damage the flash hole in the breech plug, if you cleaned the flash channel between every 100 shots, and you would probably need an electric drill.  If there is any doubt as to the size of a drill bit to clean the Breech Plug on the gun you select, Call the manufacturer of the gun, you can do this before you make the purchase.
BULLETS: 
     One bullet to try would be the Hornady #44280  .44 Cal 300 grain XTP with the Harvester green crush rib sabot, or another bullet is the Hornady #45202  SST/ML 250 grain bullet with the Thompson Center Superglide Sabot.  I use 100 grains of BH 209 with these 2 bullet combinations.  Accuracy is very good, you could start at 90 grains and work your way up to 120 grains of BH 209 powder, use the load with the best group to initially sight your muzzleloader in, unless you find a better bullet and powder combination.  Those bullets are both adequate to hunt deer if they group for you.  I’d use the Hornady XTP  at 100 yards or less, the SST/ML you could probably stretch it out a bit depending on your group.  The reason I would recommend these bullets to sight in with is because they are relatively cheap, you can buy both in bulk and sabots at LG Outdoors, harvester, or MMP.  You could sight your gun in and get experience without shooting expensive bullets.  Then you can select something like the Barnes TEZ 250 grain bullet.   I don’t think it would take you as long to sight in the Barnes TEZ, once you have sighted your gun with the cheaper bullets.  As you sight your rifle in, roughly adjust your scope or sights to the center of the target, all you want to do is find which bullet and charge combination is the most accurate.  After you find your bullet and powder combination that is the most accurate in your gun, adjust your sights or scope for POA and POI.  If one bullet does not work well in your gun, try another.  I personally use the Barnes Spitfire TEZ 250 grain bullet, it is an all copper bullet, and it is a flat base bullet that comes with a blue sabot.  You can buy Barnes bullets in bulk and use MMP Sabots, here is a link to buy various Barnes and other bullets & sabots in bulk.  (Compliments of Encore), http://www.smokelessmz.com/bullets.html   here is a link to choose sabots for Barnes Bullets.    (If the link doesn’t work, if you really want to see the information you are going to have to open another window and manually enter the link, into your browser, it is worth the effort) file:///H:/Best%20Accuracy%20For%20Your%20Muzzleloader%20%20%20Barnes%20Bullets.htm     Here is a link from Barnes with Bullet and Velocity information using numerous Powders and Bullets.   http://www.barnesbullets.com/images/MuzzleloaderData.pdf. This link does not contain information for the Barnes TEZ, this is an older link, TEZ bullet and velocity information is available when you purchase TEZ Bullets in 15 per pack, you can also get information on various bullet Velocities and with powder charges of 100, 110 and 120 grains of Blackhorn 209 powder on this site http://www.blackhorn209.com .   The TEZ is very accurate and expand at low velocities and at high velocities.  I use 110 grains of BH 209 with this bullet, it groups well at 100 yards and will stretch out to 200 yards, farther than that depending on the shooter.  Again if you start shooting the TEZ vary your charges until you find what your gun likes, with BH 209 start at 90 grains and work up to 120 grains using BH 209.   (A sweet spot for BH 209 seems to be 100 to 110 grains)   I would not use a powerbelt bullet, I do not think they are for beginners.  Too much powder and they may disintegrate, too little and they will pencil through deer.  The platinum powerbelt bullets are for magnum loads of 100 grains or more of powder or pellet.  Many people swear by the powerbelts.  I would not use T/C Maxie bullets, they have absolutely no expansion and will pencil through a deer.  I used a 430 grain Maxie bullet to hunt deer, and killed many deer with the Maxie, with a .54 Caliber T/C Renegade and 100 grains of Pyrodex powder, it would knock your teeth out.  Sabots may be obtained from Harvester   https://www.harvestermuzzleloading.com/   Or MMP:  http://mmpsabots.com/  If you need help selecting a sabot call Harvester or MMP and they will help you match the bullet you want to shoot with a sabot.   Ask them for a couple of recommendations as if one sabot does not work with your gun you will have another sabot to try.  If all else fails, select another bullet and or sabot.  Here is a good supplier for Bullets and a lot of other things related to muzzleloading.     http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/Dept/Muzzleloaders/Projectiles?CurrentPage=1 
RIFLES: 
     I am partial to CVA guns, I just like them.  I have an Accura V2 that works great for me.  There are 4 of the muzzleloading manufactures listed below.  The only gun I could not recommend is the T/C Pro Hunter.   Mine shoots great, I have had no issues, not in hunting or on the range.   But I have read posts that indicate a problem with accuracy from some and no help from T/C.    People modify the T/C Pro Hunter using aftermarket parts and also to include cutting off the end of the barrel known as the QLA.  If one has problems they can cure all known issues with just $35.00 worth of parts (information provided by Encore), if one can do the work themselves.  Not including cutting off the QLA if needed.  If you can’t do the work yourself it will probably cost you for a gun shop to do it for you, modifications would probably void your warranty with Thompson center.   A beginner has no business buying a T/C Pro Hunter, The beginner has too much to learn and does not need to try to trouble shoot a muzzleloader being inaccurate, other than cleaning procedures, Bullet selection, powder selection or grains of powder to use.  

http://www.cva.com/     Very good fast customer service, I think the best value for the money, accurate to.   I own the Accura V2, CVA gives you 17 days to shoot it, if it is not the best gun you have ever shot, CVA will refund your money.       If you decide to purchase a CVA muzzleloader and decide at some point you need a shim kit, here it is,      http://www.cva.com/CVA-Store-View.php?id=504      be sure to read all instructions.
http://www.knightrifles.com/   scroll to the bottom of the page to access all of the options.  I have heard their customer service is lacking and that it can be hard to get a hold of them when needed, depending on what time of year it is.  I have also heard their guns are accurate and kind of pricey, and harder to clean than a break action gun.   I have never owned one of the knight muzzleloaders.
https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/category/Muzzleloaders   I have never owned a Traditions muzzleloader, and have never heard anything about customer service.  Once I read a review about one of their muzzleloaders, there were a couple of minor negative comments, and as I remember the muzzleloader reviewed was accurate.
https://www.tcarms.com/firearms/   Scroll down to see muzzleloaders.  Except for the Pro Hunter I have not heard much negative about the T/C line of guns.   I think their customer service sucks.  They are pricey.

I would consider looking around for prices if you find a muzzleloader you are interested in. The manufacture sites tend to be on the high dollar side.  Here is one site that I hear is pretty good to deal with and has good deals on rifles:    http://www.muzzle-loaders.com/muzzleloader-rifles.php   When you find the rifle you want google it by Mfg. and model name, you will get many retail sites that you can compare pricing and reviews.   Google a specific brand and/or type and/or caliber of bullet, you can compare prices and possibly find the bullet in bulk.


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## FrontierGander

CVA Optima, CVA Wolf, CVA Accura V2 * higher price but well worth it!* are all excellent shooters with great triggers and easy to care for.


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## tv_racin_fan

thericcardgrp said:


> I bow hunt and gun hunt. I have never used a muzzle loader. I am looking for the easiest muzzle loader to use and clean. If price did not matter (which it does ) what would your choice of muzzle loader be and for what reasons ? Thanks for the help in advance.



That depends on what style of muzzle loader you want.

For a traditional sidelock style, you wont go wrong with a Lyman Great Plains Rifle in the flavor of your choice.

Easy to clean, water alone does the job but a bit of dish washing liquid is preferred by many. Some like other concoctions that are easy to put together at home. Oil it down with some sweet oil or olive oil or some mineral oil, lard something not petroleum based.

For powder I would suggest real black powder in the FFFg granulation. It burns a bit cleaner than FFg and you use about 8% less as well to achieve the same velocity.

I have a CVA Bobcat, paid $65. Nothing fancy but it shoots well. The only issue is the barrel is a bit short, makes it handy in the woods but you can't burn enough powder to get the velocity needed for longer shots.

Money not an issue then I am going to contact one of the custom builders and have em do me a half stocked Vincent in flintlock form with a 34" barrel. Or purchase the parts and build it myself. But I like the look and handyness of the half stocked rifles, many prefer full stocked rifles that resemble what they think of when they hear Kentucky Rifle (Actually in general they would be Pennsylvania rifles of one school or another.).

Modern inline you have to check without someone with experience with those things. I want a CVA Optima V2 pistol myself, just haven't plunked down the cash.

Modern inline money no issue you want the Savage or the new Remington or better yet have one of the custom builders build a similar rifle. I'd go with 40 or 45 caliber as you don't need 50 caliber projectiles at the velocity you can get with one of these rifles, unless you intend to go for larger animals at longer ranges.


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## stabow

The best muzzleloader that's a tough question. You have traditional and new fangle both take about 10 min. To clean it depends what you like......


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## FrontierGander

IMO when someone pops up and tells you they clean their ML in 10 minutes, dont buy a used one off them!


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## stabow

Been shooting ML for 40 years I have a few and know how to clean them . Maybe you should practice a little.


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## BarnesAddict

tv_racin_fan said:


> ................Modern inline money no issue you want the Savage or the new Remington that can burn smokeless powder............ .



The new Remington 700 Ultimate IS NOT designed to burn smokeless propellant.


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## tv_racin_fan

BarnesAddict said:


> The new Remington 700 Ultimate IS NOT designed to burn smokeless propellant.



Excuse me.. I should have checked before saying that. (edited out of that post.. thank you)


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## Sargent

If you want to get the essence of what muzzleloading is all about, I suggest starting off with a traditional one.  You can find a second-hand Hawken or other variant for not a lot of cash.  My only advice is to do a little research into what a bad bore looks like and get yourself a bore light.  

If you want to explore into the realm of modern muzzleloaders, go for it.  Although a lot of people are soundly in one camp or the other, there is no rule that says you can't enjoy both traditional and modern.


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## harryrichdawg

If you want easy loading and shooting, I'd suggest a break action like the CVA Wolf, 209 primers, pyrodex or 777 pellets, and powerbelt bullets.

Pellets are not as clean burning as Blackhorn, but no need to weigh or measure it.  Be sure to clean the barrel every time you shoot it or you'll have rust pitting and lose accuracy.

I strongly suggest CVA.  They are located in GA and have excellent customer service.  I once broke a firing pin on Thursday before ML weekend.  I drove to the CVA offices on Friday.  They installed a new firing pin while I waited.  I was in the woods on Saturday.


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## Bo D

T/C Bone Collector Edition is a well thought out ML...no tools needed for breach plug making cleaning easier than ever...lightest Ive used ever...fluted barrel... plus Sims  pad and the William Fire Sights....prob the last ML I'll own. Good Luck


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## Chase4556

CVA Wolf.

$240 bucks for a scoped setup, and I can cloverleaf 3 shots at 100yds with 2 777 pellets and a Hornady XTP 240gr. Not the best built gun by any means... but she is a durn good performer.


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## 7Mag Hunter

stabow said:


> Been shooting ML for 40 years I have a few and know how to clean them . Maybe you should practice a little.




X-2..
'Bout 10 mins with a bucket of HOT soapy water on my 25+ yr old Hawken, and she is clean.....
Maybe a little less to clean my CVA in-line.....But then i 
clean after every shot with my inline, so it stays clean...


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## Nicodemus

Davide Pedersoli flintlock longrifle.

Lyman Great Plains percussion rifle.

Both 50 caliber. 

The real thing. Both totally reliable and very accurate.


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## Wrangler Hunter

Sargent said:


> If you want to get the essence of what muzzleloading is all about, I suggest starting off with a traditional one.  You can find a second-hand Hawken or other variant for not a lot of cash.  My only advice is to do a little research into what a bad bore looks like and get yourself a bore light.
> 
> If you want to explore into the realm of modern muzzleloaders, go for it.  Although a lot of people are soundly in one camp or the other, there is no rule that says you can't enjoy both traditional and modern.



I started with a CVA Hawkin I build from a kit and now hunt mostly with a Traditions Pursuit LT brake open muzzle loader.  I love shooting the Hawkin, but for ease of cleaning I like the Pursuit.  Go with a break open for ease of cleaning for sure.


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## thericcardgrp

Thanks to all of you who provided input. I do appreciate it and will consider all your recommendations.


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## killitgrillit

FrontierGander said:


> IMO when someone pops up and tells you they clean their ML in 10 minutes, dont buy a used one off them!


You might need to reconsider your cleaning procedures!!!


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## Chase4556

killitgrillit said:


> You might need to reconsider your cleaning procedures!!!



For my knowledge, could you explain your procedure?


I use Hoppes No9 on a bore brush, dip the brush in the #9 and run it through the barrel, dip and repeat, 3 patches, one more run of #9 then patch it clean. I generously coat another patch with gun oil, and run that down the barrel a couple times. Use one of those #9 soaked patches to take any buildup off the front of the plug. Scrape primer flash hole with a pick, spray out with gun cleaner, check the flash hole to make sure its good. Smidge of grease on the threads, reinstall plug. Silicon cloth to run the gun down real quick. Takes me 10 minutes or less, and by barrel is still shiney and new and the gun looks great. Every 50 shots or so I will clean off the reciever around where the primer sits to take any carbon buildup off, and then a drop or two of oil on the firing pin. 

Just curious if there is a better way, or if I am missing an important step.


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## MFOSTER

Encore 209x50


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## Nicodemus

I clean  mine with cold water and then give them a light coat of real bear oil.


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## killitgrillit

Chase4556 said:


> For my knowledge, could you explain your procedure?
> 
> 
> I use Hoppes No9 on a bore brush, dip the brush in the #9 and run it through the barrel, dip and repeat, 3 patches, one more run of #9 then patch it clean. I generously coat another patch with gun oil, and run that down the barrel a couple times. Use one of those #9 soaked patches to take any buildup off the front of the plug. Scrape primer flash hole with a pick, spray out with gun cleaner, check the flash hole to make sure its good. Smidge of grease on the threads, reinstall plug. Silicon cloth to run the gun down real quick. Takes me 10 minutes or less, and by barrel is still shiney and new and the gun looks great. Every 50 shots or so I will clean off the reciever around where the primer sits to take any carbon buildup off, and then a drop or two of oil on the firing pin.
> 
> Just curious if there is a better way, or if I am missing an important step.



Im saying it should only take 10 minutes to clean a BP gun with good results.


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## FrontierGander

cleaning it and cleaning it the right way differs from one to the other.


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## hambone76

harryrichdawg said:


> If you want easy loading and shooting, I'd suggest a break action like the CVA Wolf, 209 primers, pyrodex or 777 pellets, and powerbelt bullets.
> 
> Pellets are not as clean burning as Blackhorn, but no need to weigh or measure it.  Be sure to clean the barrel every time you shoot it or you'll have rust pitting and lose accuracy.
> 
> I strongly suggest CVA.  They are located in GA and have excellent customer service.  I once broke a firing pin on Thursday before ML weekend.  I drove to the CVA offices on Friday.  They installed a new firing pin while I waited.  I was in the woods on Saturday.


X2 on the CVA and their Customer Service. I have an Optima Elite .45. It's a great shooting rifle very accurate. Their CS is top notch.


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## Chase4556

killitgrillit said:


> Im saying it should only take 10 minutes to clean a BP gun with good results.



Gotcha, I'm tracking now.


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## ourway77

*Sml*



BarnesAddict said:


> The new Remington 700 Ultimate IS NOT designed to burn smokeless propellant.


 Don't try smokeless powder in that ultimate Even though it has the Remington 700 rifle action, Breech plug and the type of steel used in the barrel determines if you can use smokeless powder. Use a hefty dose of BH-209 and reach out and touch someone Merry Christmas


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## SuperCreech

I have been extremely happy with my t/c omega .i fully floated the barrel and I have worked up a few loads and 120gr of triple 7 and a 300gr 44 cal dead center will cut holes at 100 yards not to mention these bullets drop deer like sack of potato’s .


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## Kaisrus6

Chase4556 said:


> For my knowledge, could you explain your procedure?
> 
> 
> I use Hoppes No9 on a bore brush, dip the brush in the #9 and run it through the barrel, dip and repeat, 3 patches, one more run of #9 then patch it clean. I generously coat another patch with gun oil, and run that down the barrel a couple times. Use one of those #9 soaked patches to take any buildup off the front of the plug. Scrape primer flash hole with a pick, spray out with gun cleaner, check the flash hole to make sure its good. Smidge of grease on the threads, reinstall plug. Silicon cloth to run the gun down real quick. Takes me 10 minutes or less, and by barrel is still shiney and new and the gun looks great. Every 50 shots or so I will clean off the reciever around where the primer sits to take any carbon buildup off, and then a drop or two of oil on the firing pin.
> 
> Just curious if there is a better way, or if I am missing an important step.


The only thing about the dip and repeat method that is negative is that every time you dip a dirty brush into your solvent you're putting contaminants into clean solvent. May be better to pour a small amount into a bowl or cup or onto the brush.


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