# Anyone here believe in the Partial Rapture Theory?



## SneekEE (Jul 1, 2010)

Just curious if anyone in here believes in the Partial Rapture Theory? Personaly i do not.

If you havnt heared of this, then look into it.This theory holds that believers will be raptured at different times just before and during the tribulation. The factor used to determine the time of the believers' rapture and the amount of suffering he will endure is his faithfulness to Christ, so i have read. 

Of corse there comming out with the book, i am sure the movie will follow, then the video game ect. ect.

The Partial Rapture view originated with Robert Govett in 1835 in his book " Entrance into the Kingdom: The Apocalypse Expounded by Scripture".


And YES, those who believe it use scriptures to support there theory.

While i am at it, is anyone heared of the harvest rapture?

Lets see , we have pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, pre-wrath, harvest, partial, amillennialist, post-millennialist,  pre-millennialist , rapture theories. There are more, I dont recall the names of them all. There was one that talked about the 2 feet of the rapture, it was similar to the partial rapture. What other rapture theories have you heared of? Any way, just curious, NOT,NOT,NOT trying to kick off a debate.


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## crackerdave (Jul 1, 2010)

Nope.


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## Lowjack (Jul 1, 2010)

Nope, Christ said it would be after the tribulation MT 24 I think he is the one that should know.


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## SneekEE (Jul 1, 2010)

crackerdave said:


> Nope.



While i definatly did not want this post to turn into a rapture debat.......eye thunk shorly the respons would have been mo than a ..NOPE.

But hey, least you answered my question, thanks for responding.


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## Ronnie T (Jul 1, 2010)

Nope also.
All of that will come to past just as God executes it.


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## crackerdave (Jul 1, 2010)

SneekEE said:


> While i definatly did not want this post to turn into a rapture debat.......eye thunk shorly the respons would have been mo than a ..NOPE.
> 
> But hey, least you answered my question, thanks for responding.



You're welcome. Thanks fer askin'! 

If you hang around here much,you'll see that I am a firm believer in being brief and to the point.


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## gtparts (Jul 1, 2010)

Thought you were just jerking our chain....... and low and behold I looked down and saw I was the victim of the two feet, partial rapture.



Then I sucked in my gut and both feet reappeared!!!!


Wheeeeeeeeewwwwwwww!!!

Liked to have scared me silly for a minute there!


After that, I guess I'll have to go with "No", also.


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## SneekEE (Jul 1, 2010)

gtparts said:


> Thought you were just jerking our chain....... and low and behold I looked down and saw I was the victim of the two feet, partial rapture.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




 LOL, No I am not joking, this is for real.


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## SneekEE (Jul 1, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> Nope also.
> All of that will come to past just as God executes it.



Of that we can be absolooootley sure of!!!!


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## SneekEE (Jul 1, 2010)

Ok this 2 footed rapture deal had somthing to do with jesus taking His church "rapture" in phases.  And I dont recall the particulars, i was just so amased at how they took bible verses and it actualy sounded like it was talking about what they believe. Somthing about Jesus is the head, we are the body. And then somthing about Jacobs ladder. And they were saying somthing like..ok, now what is the last thing you see when someone is on a ladder going up?? answer, there feet. And how many feet does a body have? 2? like duh...
Anyway they made a connection that we represented the feet, the last of the church in history. Kind of like Daniels dream of the feet representing a kingdom, only in there theory, the feet was the church.

One foot goes up when climbing a ladder, then another foot follows. They were saying the rapture is like this, first one foot goes up, then the other. We are the feet, 2 feet, 2 raptures.

Again it was realy amazing and hillarious the way they tied the scriptures into what they were saying.


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## crackerdave (Jul 1, 2010)

SneekEE said:


> Ok this 2 footed rapture deal had somthing to do with jesus taking His church "rapture" in phases.  And I dont recall the particulars, i was just so amased at how they took bible verses and it actualy sounded like it was talking about what they believe. Somthing about Jesus is the head, we are the body. And then somthing about Jacobs ladder. And they were saying somthing like..ok, now what is the last thing you see when someone is on a ladder going up?? answer, there feet. And how many feet does a body have? 2? like duh...
> Anyway they made a connection that we represented the feet, the last of the church in history. Kind of like Daniels dream of the feet representing a kingdom, only in there theory, the feet was the church.
> 
> One foot goes up when climbing a ladder, then another foot follows. They were saying the rapture is like this, first one foot goes up, then the other. We are the feet, 2 feet, 2 raptures.
> ...





Even satan can do that.


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## formula1 (Jul 1, 2010)

*Re:*

Nope.  The rapture was an unheard of concept until it showed up in 1830's Scotland prophecy by a 14 year old girl Margaret McDonald. Her father was a leader in an early Pentecostal movement.  At a Pastor's conference, a man you should know by the name of John Darby began teaching the doctrine as a result of this Conference in London where Miss McDonald and her Father were a part of.  Darby meets Scofield and that's how its got into many modern day Bibles and became a generally accepted doctrine.

I personally only know that my Father in heaven will do what He wills at the end time.  But I can only say that I don't see enough scriptural evidence of a Rapture like most describe for me to accept it as absolute truth. And truly, its a non-essential doctrine at best.

What is essential is for me to do my best to love Jesus with all my heart and allow Him to live His will through me in this life.


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## gtparts (Jul 1, 2010)

I'm still not sure that the original "2 ft. rapture" was not a spoof, possibly by some clever-but-rascally divinity students somewhere. 

However, I have heard some really wild and totally off the wall stuff on this forum, so I know it is not impossible for someone to fabricate a personal theology by selectively sampling various religious ideas and combining them with some wishful thinking. I just believe you have to be somewhat gullible to buy into something that is so far from conventionally accepted Christian theology.  It is certainly not explicit in scripture and a huge stretch to have any credence from implicit support. The only passage that comes remotely close is 1 Thess. 4:16-18, but I have never heard or read anyone give a two-stage spin to what plainly describes one departure of the saints, beginning with the dead in Christ and concluding with those still alive at His return.


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## SneekEE (Jul 1, 2010)

FOUND IT. OK, here it is, the 2 footed rapture lol. Also google "multiple raptures", it is taught ...by many apprently, that there will be multiple raptures, . Found one place that talked about 3.Disspensationalisim allows you to chop and seperate, chop and seperate ect ect.



The Two Feet of the Body of Christ

The Mystery of the End-Time Church…

by Bruce Baber

The two feet of the statue in Daniel’s vision symbolize the end-time empire. 

The two feet of the body of Christ symbolize the end-time church! 


Is the comparison of a baby’s birth to the church’s birth a fair comparison to make? Absolutely! The church is the Body of Christ and He is the head. The Bible states this in a number of passages quite clearly. See Ephesians 4:12 and 5:23.

Here also is what Paul wrote in I Corinthians.
1 Corinthians 12:12-26
12 The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its p arts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body–whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free–and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14 Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body.

And further on in I Corinthians 12: 18-20 it reads:
18 But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19 If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

Knowing that we are part of the body of Christ, we may also find it interesting to go back and read Psalm 139. It certainly speaks about how God formed us in the womb and knew us before we were born as individuals into this world. However, when we view this Psalm in terms of the birth of the church as Christ’s body, i t takes on both a very symbolic and prophetic meaning.

In fact, there are many places in the Bible that hint at what was to become the future birth of the church. But, once we begin to focus on the birth of the church and begin to think in those terms, we are left with a very obvious conclusion. If the church is born into this world like a baby, with first the head (Christ) appearing, followed in succession by the other parts of the body, then the end-time church would naturally have to be the feet.

We, the end-time church, are the feet of the Body of Christ! This fact is important. It allows us to see if God has foreshadowed any events which relate to this part of the church. Now that we know how to look for it, we find that the Bible has a great deal to tell us!

It seems staggering to me that so much has been written on the two feet of the image which appears in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream which is found in the book of Daniel. Volumes and volumes! Daniel, him se lf, tells us that the feet of the statue represent the end-time empire. We know this is the revived Roman Empire. Much has been said in books, sermons, lectures and discussions about the feet of the statue. If the Bible gives us so much to go on regarding the feet of the image in the book of Daniel, isn’t it possible that the Bible would give us at least as much detail about the end-time church? In fact, it gives us a great amount.

One Heel Will be Bruised

All the way back in Genesis 3:15, we find a veiled reference relating to a foot, or heel, which will be injured by Satan. Practically everyone agrees that this is a reference to the crucifixion of Christ. So do I. Jesus’ feet were pierced when He was crucified. Genesis 3:15 certainly does symbolize the crucifixion event. However, it is also a veiled foreshadowing of an event which pertains to the end-time church. How do I know this? Because the Bible doesn’t make mistakes. Genesis 3:15 clearly says heel (singular) . It does not say heels (plural). During the crucifixion, both of Jesus’ feet were pierced. I am utterly convinced that when God was speaking in Genesis 3:15, He was at the same time making a veiled prophecy about the end-time church! Just as the statue in Daniel has two feet which represent the end-time world power, so the end-time church is represented by two feet, one of which will be bruised, or persecuted by the seed of Satan! God says that one heel will be bruised, not two. What happens to the other foot? The answer is simple. One part of the church (one foot) will have gone in the Rapture! It was the front foot.

(Note: If the seed / offspring of the serpent refers to the antichrist and the seed/ offspring of the woman refers to body of Christ which is the church, then the foot of Christ, or church left behind may be responsible for the head wound that the antichrist receives. Someone who is a member of the body of Christ that is left behind which I refer to as the second foot, may somehow deliver one or two blows to the antichrist thus wounding his head causing him to be blinded in one eye and another wound which would cause the antichrist‘s arm to wither. This attack on the antichrist would happen close to the midpoint of the tribulation and seem to kill the antichrist. However, the antichrist will rise up fully possessed by the devil).

I remember something that happened to me when I was a young boy. I was fishing with some older boys at a pond. Sunning itself beside the water’s edge was a poisonous copperhead snake. I didn’t see it. I stepped right on top of it. The moment it moved under my foot, I saw it and jumped. That snake was mad! It came after me. Thankfully, my friends were there to chase it away with their fishing poles. But, had that snake caught me, it would surely have bitten me on the back of my heel. I was running from it. My heel was the only place it could have struck me. When Satan chases and persecutes the end-time church, which is represented symbolically by the feet, he will surely bruise and afflict the heel of the foot which is fleeing from him. One foot of the church will be beyond his grasp. It will have departed.

Enoch and Elijah

Back to foreshadowing. If one foot of the church is taken in the Rapture, we should find it foreshadowed in the scriptures. It’s there, of course. Enoch. We find him raptured way back in Genesis. He is the first one to have ever been taken away. But, he isn’t the last one! There is further foreshadowing of a second Rapture. Elijah. He foreshadows the Rapture of the second foot of the persecuted end-time church. Elijah’s life perfectly represents the church of the persecution during the Tribulation. At various times he had to go into hiding. He was persecuted by King Ahab and his wife Jezebel who participated in the vilest forms of idolatry. Of special interest is the fact that during a period of about three years, there was a severe drought and famine. He had to leave his country and live with a widow who miraculously supplied him with food. On another occasion, Elijah was supplied with food by ravens. Later, he was helped by an angel who provided food and water. At various times, Elijah would say he was the only believer left.

Taken together, all these instances make a dramatic parallel to the events which transpire for the Christians who have to go through the persecution. Not being able to buy or sell, they will be forced from their homes and depend on miraculous provision from God. They too may feel like they are the only true believers who are left. However, they are not alone. God will not abandon them just as he did not abandon Elijah. Moreover, the persecuted Christians will have the same source of strength that Elijah had. They will receive the Holy Spirit. Remember what the Amplified Bible calls the Holy Spirit? He is called the Comforter, Counselor, Helper, Intercessor, Advocate, Strengthener, and Standby.

(TO BE CONTINUED)>>>>>>>


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## SneekEE (Jul 1, 2010)

The Departure and Return of the Holy Spirit

There are many who teach that when the Pre-Tribulation church goes in the (first) Rapture, the Holy Spirit departs with them. This is only partially true. The Holy Spirit does go with them. However, he does return. Just like our blessed Savior who departed, but will come again. Can this be proven? Yes! Beyond any doubt. In John 14:16, Jesus said, “I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another comforter, that He may abide with you forever.” A little further on, Jesus said, “I will not leave you comfortless.” I would call this teaching pretty direct. But, let’s see if it fits with what we know about the end-time church being the symbolic feet of Christ. Earlier , I said that once we knew that the end-time church is symbolically represented by the feet of Christ, it would lead us to discover what God has in store. Let’s find out.

On two separate occasions, Jesus’ feet were anointed with a costly perfume. Luke 7:38 and John 12:3 describe two separate, but similar events. In each case, Jesus’ feet were anointed with costly perfume. Read the passages and compare them for yourself. They are two separate events! One occurs in the house of a Pharisee and other event occurs in the home of Mary and Martha. Here is what John Wesley said in his commentary on Luke 7:37. “A woman – Not the same with Mary of Bethany, who anointed him six days before his last Passover. “

The perfume is symbolic of the Holy Spirit. What a perfectly harmonious analogy! The church which goes in the first Rapture has the Holy Spirit. Later, the remaining church is given the Holy Spirit! This brings me to an important point. The very reason that part of the church is left behind at the first Rapture is because they are living without the power of the Holy Spirit in their lives right now! They will be left out of the first event and have to live through a terrible persecution because they are not living for Jesus in the present. What a terrible tragedy!

I believe that for a period of time, the church of the persecution (symbolized by the second foot of Christ) will have to endure without the Holy Spirit. They will be like Jeremiah, who in Lamentations 1:16, said, “For these things I weep; my eyes flow with tears, because a comforter, one who could refresh and restore my soul, is far from me…” (Amplified Bible). But, please remember that God will not abandon this church. They will be sent the Holy Spirit. After all, it was ten days after Jesus departed this world before the Holy Spirit was sent.

The Foolish Virgins

Jesus taught a parable which is a warning about being caught without enough of the Holy Spirit at His coming to take the church into Heaven. It is known as the parable of the foolish virgins.

Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there not be enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door (which opens in heaven at the Rapture) was shut (like the door of the Ark) Afterward came also the other virgins, saying Lord, Lord , open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Christ is the bridegroom coming for His bride, the church. The oil represents the Holy Spirit. We should not be like foolish virgins and be left behind at the first trumpet call.

The Servants Who Missed the Wedding

The following scripture may be the clincher. Read Luke 12:36. The characters are not virgins waiting to be taken to a wedding. They are servants waiting for their master to return for them after he has been to the wedding!

35 “Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning, 36 like men waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him. 37 It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes. I tell you the truth, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them. 38 It will be good for those servants whose master finds them ready, even if he comes in the second or third watch of the night.

Does this mean that the first foot caught up in the rapture joins the others in Heaven to be the bride of Christ and join Him in the marriage supper? Does this mean that the second foot which is caught up later is not the bride, but is still considered His servants? These questions occur to me and I think the answer may be “yes.” The book of Joel has a passage about the Holy Spirit being given to waiting servants…

Joel: 17 ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. 18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy. 19 I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke. 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord. 21 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.’

Two Trumpet Calls

When the Jews were wandering in the wilderness, before entering the Promised Land, there were two trumpet calls in the morning to prepare the people to move out. The first one called the leaders of the tribes. The second one called the remainder of the people. Just as with the ancient Jews, there will be two trumpet calls for the church. Both trumpet calls are to the two coming rapture events. If you are reading this before the first Rapture, I urge you to pray for the fullness of the Holy Spirit in your life and the lives of all your loved ones. Do it now! Don’t wait. Be ready when the first call is made. You do not have to endure the agony of persecution.

If you are reading this after the first call, take heart. The Holy Spirit will come. Pray for the Holy Spirit unceasingly and God will surely provide. And just like with Elijah, God will provide sustenance, food when you need it, water when you need it. It might not be a feast. It might only be as little as what a bird can bring (remember Elijah being fed by the ravens). God will never abandon you, no matter how you feel. Don’t go with feelings. Go with faith! There is hope for you. He will give food, the Holy Spirit and a second call to join Him in Heaven at the second Rapture. Remember, just like feet, we mount up the stairs one foot at a time.

Jacob’s Ladder

One foot at a time. That’s how we climb the steps of a ladder, or go up the stairs. In Genesis 28:12, Jacob has a dream. It is one of the most familiar passages in the Bible and yet many of us have missed its significance.

“He had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. ” Yes. It is a ladder. In all my life, I never climbed a ladder using two feet at a time. The point is simple and well taken. The two symbolic feet of Christ’s body will mount up to Heaven in two stages. There will be two Raptures.

Is this the only example we can look at? No. Look at the Song of Solomon. So many people ignore this book. I don’t know why. It is one of the most beautiful books in the Bible. One of the reasons that I delight in reading it is because it gives us a wonderful insight into how God views the Bride of Christ. Please remember that the body, the church, is also the Bride of Christ and is described in those terms in a number of different

passages.

In the Song of Solomon (chapter 2, verse 10) the inspired word of God says, “My beloved speaks to me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away…” At the Rapture, God will call us to rise up! A few verses later (verse 14), the Amplified Bible says, “So I went with him, and when we were climbing the rocky steps…” There it is again! Steps. Steps which we can only climb up one foot at a time.

It would be easy at this point to digress. There is a great deal more that could be made out of the foreshadowing in the Song of Solomon. However, the point I would most like to bring out, regards the specific reference this book makes about the feet. Please notice the beautiful descriptions attributed to each part of the body. We see how God feels about each and every part. The feet are described as being beautiful (chapter 7, verse 1). God truly loves us! To Him, we are beautiful despite all our faults. Despite all we have ever done, God finds beauty in us.

Do I Have any Other Proof?

Up to this point, if you only believe there is one rapture and that it occurs before the tribulation, then how do you reconcile your belief with Genesis 18:22-33? Read this passage directly from the New International Version.

Genesis 18:23-33

23 Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing–to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?” 26 The Lord said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.” 27 Then Abraham spoke up again: “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city because of five people?” “If I find forty-five there,” he said, “I will not destroy it.” 29 Once again he spoke to him, “What if only forty are found there?” He said, “For the sake of forty, I w ill not do it.” 30 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?” He answered, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.” 31 Abraham said, “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?” He answered, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”32 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?” He answered, “For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it.” 33 When the Lord had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.

If God won’t even destroy a city such as wicked Sodom, how can you accept an unchangeable God destroying the world unless you accept that no one will get saved after the rapture of the Bride? I contend that people will get saved. They will endure persecution and death. They will be caught up to Heaven. 


The story of Abraham leaving the area of Sodom would parallel the first rapture. Read the story about Lot. He is warned to leave Sodom too. But not until moments before God’s wrath is poured out on the city! This would be the parallel to a prewrath rapture which presumably occurs at the midpoint of the tribulation.

I know what you must be thinking. If there are two separate Raptures, then when will they occur? I truly don’t know. I believe we are in the final days. As for the second Rapture, look at Revelation 2:10. Once again, I will quote from the Amplified Bible:

“Fear nothing that you are about to suffer. Dismiss your dread and your fears! Behold, the devil is indeed about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested and proven and critically appraised; and for ten days you will have affliction. Be loyally faithful unto death – (that is) even if you must die for it – and I will give you the crown of life.”

My guess is that the second rapture occurs when the two witnesses are taken up in the book of Revelation. At the midway point of tribulation? I suppose. I can only conclude that it is far better to be a participant in the first rapture. God doesn’t want us to endure the coming persecution. He gives us a way out! We just have to be ready. Remember those virgins who were waiting for the bridegroom to come? Some were ready and some foolishly were not. I urge you to pray. Pray that the Holy Spirit will come fully and completely to live in you. Be filled with His presence. Accept not only God’s salvation and accept Him as Lord of your life. Do it now. Please do not wait.

Finally, let me address why I think that very few people have caught on to the Two Rapture Theory. I think it’s the same reason that there was confusion in Jesus’ day when people missed the fact that the Messiah would have to come twice. The prophecies would often show the first and second coming in the same context. Passages that relate to the two raptures are perceived by readers as being all about one and the same event.

Do I believe that there are two rapture events? Yes, until I am confronted with compelling evidence that would lead me to believe otherwise. In the end, what matters most is that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. May God be with you and may He give us all faith, hope, peace, humility, understanding and love.


Post Script: Draw two stick figures on a sheet of paper. The first one will represent the statue in Daniel’s vision. Label the head Babylon. The arms and shoulders will be the Medes and Persians. The torso is Greece. The legs are the eastern and western Roman empire. Lastly the feet are the end-time empire. Now start labeling the second figure with Christ as the head. The arms and shoulders are Ephesus and Smyrna. The torso is Pergamos. The legs are Thyatira and Sardis. The end-time church is represented by Philadelphia and Laodicea. Many have wrongly labeled all of the end-time church as Laodicea because it is mentioned last in Revelations. However this best describes the state of the end-time church in Europe and parts of the US. The Philadelphia church is still very much alive and full of the Holy Spirit in some parts of the US, Africa and China. The end time churches are truly represented by the two feet of the body of Christ. 

Post Script: I did not come up with the following, but surely believe that there is truth in it. Paul said to use the Jewish festivals as a way to view prophecy.

The first Spring harvest is the barley harvest which would represent the pretribulation rapture.

Barley is harvested by winnowing… tossing the grain up in the air to separate the grain from the husk.

The next harvest is the wheat harvest which could very well represent a prewrath rapture.

Wheat in ancient times was harvested using a tribulum (a word we get tribulation from)!

The tribulum was a board embedded with stones to bruise the kernels of wheat to separate it from the chaff.

Lastly comes the harvest of grapes. At the second coming, Christ will trod the grapes in the winepress of His wrath.


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## FishingAddict (Jul 1, 2010)

SneekEE said:


> What other rapture theories have you heared of? _*Any way, just curious, NOT,NOT,NOT trying to kick off a debate.[/*_QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> Come on now, you really think a debate won't happen?


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## FishingAddict (Jul 1, 2010)

formula1 said:


> Nope.  The rapture was an unheard of concept until it showed up in 1830's Scotland prophecy by a 14 year old girl Margaret McDonald. Her father was a leader in an early Pentecostal movement.  At a Pastor's conference, a man you should know by the name of John Darby began teaching the doctrine as a result of this Conference in London where Miss McDonald and her Father were a part of.  Darby meets Scofield and that's how its got into many modern day Bibles and became a generally accepted doctrine.
> 
> I personally only know that my Father in heaven will do what He wills at the end time.  But I can only say that I don't see enough scriptural evidence of a Rapture like most describe for me to accept it as absolute truth. And truly, its a non-essential doctrine at best.
> 
> What is essential is for me to do my best to love Jesus with all my heart and allow Him to live His will through me in this life.



Very well said.

If rapture was part of it all, I'm pretty sure Jesus would have spoken pretty clearly of it.  Plus, as I understand it- the "body" of a person disappears during rapture, which makes no sense- God ain't interested in our body.  If he was, no one has gone to heaven yet, as I'm unaware of any dead bodies disapearing (not including vaporization from explosions )


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## packrat (Jul 1, 2010)

*Rapture*

I have my personal beliefs, but one thing I know for sure.
When JESUS is coming, I'll be going; all my worldly possessions are up for grabs.


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## SneekEE (Jul 1, 2010)

FishingAddict said:


> SneekEE said:
> 
> 
> > What other rapture theories have you heared of? _*Any way, just curious, NOT,NOT,NOT trying to kick off a debate.[/*_QUOTE]
> ...


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## SneekEE (Jul 1, 2010)

packrat said:


> I have my personal beliefs, but one thing I know for sure.
> When JESUS is coming, I'll be going; all my worldly possessions are up for grabs.



There is a group of post-trib rapturist out there who for a fee of 50 bucks, feed and care for all of the pre-trib rapturists pets once the pre-tribers get raptured..... aint no joke .


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## packrat (Jul 1, 2010)

*Nah*



SneekEE said:


> There is a group of post-trib rapturist out there who for a fee of 50 bucks, feed and care for all of the pre-trib rapturists pets once the pre-tribers get raptured..... aint no joke .



No thanks, my chickens are true free rangers, no hand-feeding required. After I'm gone, catch them and you can have them. Just don't turn your back on the gray rooster.


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## farmasis (Jul 1, 2010)

formula1 said:


> Nope. The rapture was an unheard of concept until it showed up in 1830's Scotland prophecy by a 14 year old girl Margaret McDonald. Her father was a leader in an early Pentecostal movement. At a Pastor's conference, a man you should know by the name of John Darby began teaching the doctrine as a result of this Conference in London where Miss McDonald and her Father were a part of. Darby meets Scofield and that's how its got into many modern day Bibles and became a generally accepted doctrine.
> 
> I personally only know that my Father in heaven will do what He wills at the end time. But I can only say that I don't see enough scriptural evidence of a Rapture like most describe for me to accept it as absolute truth. And truly, its a non-essential doctrine at best.
> 
> What is essential is for me to do my best to love Jesus with all my heart and allow Him to live His will through me in this life.


 
Actually, there is much,much more to the story.

This is well done and referenced.
http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj13e.pdf
Take a peek.


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## farmasis (Jul 1, 2010)

SneekEE said:


> There is a group of post-trib rapturist out there who for a fee of 50 bucks, feed and care for all of the pre-trib rapturists pets once the pre-tribers get raptured..... aint no joke .


 
Actually, I think they are atheist.


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## farmasis (Jul 1, 2010)

FishingAddict said:


> Very well said.
> 
> If rapture was part of it all, I'm pretty sure Jesus would have spoken pretty clearly of it. Plus, as I understand it- the "body" of a person disappears during rapture, which makes no sense- God ain't interested in our body. If he was, no one has gone to heaven yet, as I'm unaware of any dead bodies disapearing (not including vaporization from explosions )


 
Not sure about the body disappearing and all, but I think Jesus spoke of a rapture quite often. 

For example Jesus said in Luke 17:

 <SUP id=en-NKJV-25674 class=versenum>*26*</SUP> And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: <SUP id=en-NKJV-25675 class=versenum>*27*</SUP> They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. <SUP id=en-NKJV-25676 class=versenum>*28*</SUP> Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; <SUP id=en-NKJV-25677 class=versenum>*29*</SUP> but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed _them_ all. <SUP id=en-NKJV-25678 class=versenum>*30*</SUP> Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. 
<SUP id=en-NKJV-25679 class=versenum>*31*</SUP> “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods _are_ in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. <SUP id=en-NKJV-25680 class=versenum>*32*</SUP> Remember Lot’s wife. <SUP id=en-NKJV-25681 class=versenum>*33*</SUP> Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. <SUP id=en-NKJV-25682 class=versenum>*34*</SUP> I tell you, in that night there will be two _men_ in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. <SUP id=en-NKJV-25683 class=versenum>*35*</SUP> Two _women_ will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. <SUP id=en-NKJV-25684 class=versenum>*36*</SUP> Two _men_ will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left."

In the examples Jesus gave us when destruction came to the area, the righteous was first removed.


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## HBC4570 (Jul 1, 2010)

nope


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## formula1 (Jul 2, 2010)

*Re:*



farmasis said:


> Actually, there is much,much more to the story.
> 
> This is well done and referenced.
> http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj13e.pdf
> Take a peek.



I appreciate the article.  I will peruse it further as time permits.  

However I've read enough to state the following:

1)  I never said that I did not believe in the Second coming of Christ, just the generally accepted theological view of the Rapture.

2) If you begin a writing with the premise that a truth (i.e. the Rapture ) exists, then all your evidence will be intrepreted to support that premise.  This is that type of writing.

3) Your other post is interesting (Luke 17, also not unlike Matthew 24), which does not point to a rapture at all in my humble opinion.

For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away 40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. 42Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

'swept them all away' Verse 39.  Can you be taken away? Can you be left away?  Which idea more closely matches 'swept away'?

Verse 43 - 44 - My conclusion this does not point to a rapture at all, but a commandment of Jesus to His disciples to 'Be ready', be diligent, be awake, be prepared, be serving, and so forth, (see 'Therefore' and go find what its there for. )

'As it was in the days of Noah' also points to the scriptures. So I tend to go to Genesis and look at Noah to see what God is saying and doing.

Genesis 6
11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 And God saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth. 13And God said to Noah, "I have determined to make an end of all flesh, for the earth is filled with violence through them. Behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

18 But I will establish my covenant with you, and you shall come into the ark, you, your sons, your wife, and your sons’ wives with you.

Genesis 7
2 3 He blotted out every living thing that was on the face of the ground, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens. They were blotted out from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those who were with him in the ark.

I'll quote it for you again " Only Noah was left, and those who were with him in the ark".  The ungodly were the ones taken away.

Farmasis,

Fun discussion, I wish you the best in your walk with Jesus, and I know that rapture or no rapture, you and I will both one day fully understand as we walk with Jesus together. That is true because of the grace and rich mercy our Father poured out to us freely through Christ's death, suffering and resurrection.


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## gtparts (Jul 2, 2010)

formula1 said:


> I appreciate the article.  I will peruse it further as time permits.
> 
> However I've read enough to state the following:
> 
> ...



By the time you get to be 60 you've heard and read so much it is hard to reference (much less cross-reference) all that has slipped through the cerebral synapses. Suffice it to say, I don't remember as well as I once did, but somewhere in the past I recollect that the ark is an archetypal depiction of Jesus (a source of refuge and physical salvation as compared to the spiritual source of refuge and salvation). I think it matters little that the wheat is separated from the tares or that the tares are separated from the wheat. Such an isolation serves one purpose, that the chosen part may be retained or preserved while the remainder may be further processed or eliminated.
The issue of "being swept away" or "gathered in" is merely a matter of perspective.
Let him who has ears to hear.............


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## Randy (Jul 2, 2010)

I am not even sure I believe in the full rapture.  That Book is soooo full of interpretations.  All I know is what ever happens will happen and I will be ready what ever it is.


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## farmasis (Jul 2, 2010)

formula1 said:


> 3) Your other post is interesting (Luke 17, also not unlike Matthew 24), which does not point to a rapture at all in my humble opinion.


 
Remember, in those examples the righteous was removed from the path of the destruction from the wrath of God before the destruction took place. 

In the case of Noah, a boat was used to remove Noah from the surface of the earth and the unrighteous was then removed by the flood.

In the case of Lot, Lot and his family was removed from the city before destruction came to the city.

I believe God will remove the church also before the Great tribulation.


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## Randy (Jul 2, 2010)

farmasis said:


> Remember, in those examples the righteous was removed from the path of the destruction from the wrath of God before the destruction took place.
> 
> In the case of Noah, a boat was used to remove Noah from the surface of the earth and the unrighteous was then removed by the flood.
> 
> ...


Yea but a lot of Christians have been fed to lions too.


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## farmasis (Jul 2, 2010)

Randy said:


> Yea but a lot of Christians have been fed to lions too.


 

?

I am not saying that bad will not come to a Christian if that is what you are implying.


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## formula1 (Jul 2, 2010)

farmasis said:


> Remember, in those examples the righteous was removed from the path of the destruction from the wrath of God before the destruction took place.
> 
> In the case of Noah, a boat was used to remove Noah from the surface of the earth and the unrighteous was then removed by the flood.
> 
> ...



You and I both may be very surprised when we see the end times.  Thank you for the great discussion and keep loving Jesus.


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## farmasis (Jul 2, 2010)

formula1 said:


> You and I both may be very surprised when we see the end times. Thank you for the great discussion and keep loving Jesus.


 

See ya here, there, or in the air!


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## Paul Shon (Nov 10, 2020)

I am convinced there is a partial rapture ...
https://www.bible-prophecy.co/


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 10, 2020)

I had the chainsaw vision too lol. It sounds like it's purpose is similar to Purgatory or another place one might go for the purpose of a finishing school if you will.

Like one is a Christian but ain't quite ready make the full trip without paying a bit of punishment or learning ti get right all the way.


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## Ray357 (Nov 10, 2020)

SneekEE said:


> Just curious if anyone in here believes in the Partial Rapture Theory? Personaly i do not.
> 
> If you havnt heared of this, then look into it.This theory holds that believers will be raptured at different times just before and during the tribulation. The factor used to determine the time of the believers' rapture and the amount of suffering he will endure is his faithfulness to Christ, so i have read.
> 
> ...


I see no Scriptural support for partial rapture.


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## NE GA Pappy (Nov 10, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> I had the chainsaw vision too lol. It sounds like it's purpose is similar to Purgatory or another place one might go for the purpose of a finishing school if you will.
> 
> Like one is a Christian but ain't quite ready make the full trip without paying a bit of punishment or learning ti get right all the way.



YEAH... cause God's grace to forgive just ain't enough on its own. <sarc>


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## Paul Shon (Nov 10, 2020)

When Christ appears, there is a requirement that His people must be prepared. John the Baptist was sent in the first century (Matthew 3:1-6). Two witnesses in Jerusalem will prepare Israel for His second coming (Revelation 11:3-6). Those of us with military experience can witness to the fact that when a senior officer is to visit – those who do not prepare in advance will likely regret not having done so. How much exponentially more must we be prepared for the next appearance of Christ. 

• The last time Christ appeared – His people were not prepared, and Christ suffered.
• The next time Christ appears – once again, many of His people will not be prepared.
• But this time – it will be the unprepared believers who will suffer.
• Christ will be coming with power and great glory.

With the early, partial rapture countless believers will be caught off guard. The Sardis Church is an example of believers who are not ready: if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you. (Revelation 3:3b) While eternal salvation is by grace through faith, rewards are conditional (Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 3:13-15). Participation in the early, partial rapture is a reward.

The promise to rescue believers from the end-times was only given to the Philadelphia Church. The prerequisite for inclusion in this partial rapture is to respond to trials – with mature perseverance. Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. (Revelation 3:10)


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 10, 2020)

Paul Shon said:


> When Christ appears, there is a requirement that His people must be prepared. John the Baptist was sent in the first century (Matthew 3:1-6). Two witnesses in Jerusalem will prepare Israel for His second coming (Revelation 11:3-6). Those of us with military experience can witness to the fact that when a senior officer is to visit – those who do not prepare in advance will likely regret not having done so. How much exponentially more must we be prepared for the next appearance of Christ.
> 
> • The last time Christ appeared – His people were not prepared, and Christ suffered.
> • The next time Christ appears – once again, many of His people will not be prepared.
> ...


How do you view that in relation to the siege of Jerusalem in 70AD? Did the Christians heed the warnings that Christ spelled out and go to the mountains?


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 10, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> YEAH... cause God's grace to forgive just ain't enough on its own. <sarc>


It makes me think God's grace wasn't enough, that Christ didn't accomplish what he said he did. Mainly relating to punishment. If Christ took on our punishment on the Cross, then we should not have to endure any future punishment for our sins.

I don't really know all I should about when the Tribulation will come but even if we suffer, and we still do every day, it's not for punishment.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 10, 2020)

I would think that if the Tribulation is punishment then Christians will not have to endure it.

If it's a continuation of Christian's daily suffering caused by the broken world, then we might have to live through it. Job suffered but it wasn't punishment.


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## NE GA Pappy (Nov 10, 2020)

I can make a good scriptural argument for a Pre-trib rapture.

I can make a good scriptural argument for a Mid-trib rapture.

I can make a good scriptural argument for a Post-trib rapture.

What I can tell you for sure is that God calls us to be ready regardless, and to be looking for His return.  Scripture tells us that no man knows the day or the hour, and even the angels don't know.  So it seems that instead of worrying about the situations and activities that are happening on earth, we should be looking up.

I fail miserably at this task


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## Paul Shon (Nov 10, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> How do you view that in relation to the siege of Jerusalem in 70AD? Did the Christians heed the warnings that Christ spelled out and go to the mountains?



Historical event - don't know.


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## Paul Shon (Nov 10, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> It makes me think God's grace wasn't enough, that Christ didn't accomplish what he said he did. Mainly relating to punishment. If Christ took on our punishment on the Cross, then we should not have to endure any future punishment for our sins.
> 
> I don't really know all I should about when the Tribulation will come but even if we suffer, and we still do every day, it's not for punishment.



This is where the confusion occurs. While eternal salvation is by grace through faith, rewards are conditional (Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 3:13-15). Participation in the early, partial rapture is a reward.


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## Paul Shon (Nov 10, 2020)

There is a tendency to conflate eternal salvation with the idea of a partial rapture. While eternal salvation is by grace through faith, rewards are conditional (Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 3:13-15). Participation in the early, partial rapture is a reward.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 10, 2020)

If a reward for some, what is the purpose for the others? Meaning it's not for punishment. Maybe just suffering? I can see the rewards thing, just trying put it into the Tribulations purpose for the others.


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## Paul Shon (Nov 10, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> If a reward for some, what is the purpose for the others? Meaning it's not for punishment. Maybe just suffering? I can see the rewards thing, just trying put it into the Tribulations purpose for the others.


The purpose is discipline per Revelation 3:19: Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 10, 2020)

Paul Shon said:


> The purpose is discipline per Revelation 3:19: Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent.


The reward is an early release from some last minute discipline. Does this last minute Tribulation discipline entice an individual to do the necessary last minute works to hasten his own reward? I'm picturing someone doing some works to please God as a means to get out of the discipline. The Tribulation being the driving means to do what it takes to drive that person to righteousness. The tribulation being the motivation.

I guess the quick way to ask is. Is the time one leaves Tribulation for Heaven based on anything the individual does while living in it or is the reward to leave just based on God's call? I may have went off the deep end before asking that simple question.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 10, 2020)

Not really a punishment but like holding a flame under someone to hurry up and learn whatever degree is needed so you can no longer receive the flame.
It's like prison. It's not punishment, its' a time to learn or to reform but performed in a really bad place as a motivation to cause the one to learn and reform. As means to move on to a much better place.


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## Paul Shon (Nov 10, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> The reward is an early release from some last minute discipline. Does this last minute Tribulation discipline entice an individual to do the necessary last minute works to hasten his own reward? I'm picturing someone doing some works to please God as a means to get out of the discipline. The Tribulation being the driving means to do what it takes to drive that person to righteousness. The tribulation being the motivation.
> 
> I guess the quick way to ask is. Is the time one leaves Tribulation for Heaven based on anything the individual does while living in it or is the reward to leave just based on God's call? I may have went off the deep end before asking that simple question.



Anticipating a pre-tribulation rapture does not motivate anyone. Did God really create a zero-incentive program?

An excerpt from my book – given away at no cost. I think you would enjoy it: https://www.bible-prophecy.co/

There are scriptures that should cause us to question if the early rapture would be a complete rapture, with not even one Christian being left behind. Jesus warned us to _“Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap; _(Luke 21:34) This is a picture of believers who, by their birthright, should be participating in an early rapture. Christ is warning us to be careful in our lifestyle choices because we could get caught in a trap; that trap being exclusion from an early rapture.

Jesus repeatedly warned us to keep watch for this return: _“Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. _(Matthew 24:42)_ Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour._ (Matthew 25:13)_ Therefore, be on the alert—for you do not know when the master of the house is coming,_ (Mark 13:35a). _What I say to you I say to all, ‘Be on the alert!’”_ (Mark 13:37)


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## Madman (Nov 10, 2020)

I vote.

NOPE


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## groundhawg (Nov 10, 2020)

packrat said:


> *Rapture*
> 
> I have my personal beliefs, but one thing I know for sure.
> When JESUS is coming, I'll be going; all my worldly possessions are up for grabs.



No to partial rapture.  But as you posted above and my Grandmother often said; "You better stay prayed up and ready to go up!"


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## NE GA Pappy (Nov 10, 2020)

The ones who would be greatest among you will be the servant of all.  

The last will be first, and the first will be last.

Wonder where those scriptures fit in to that partial reward rapture.


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## SemperFiDawg (Nov 12, 2020)

Paul Shon said:


> I am convinced there is a partial rapture ...
> https://www.bible-prophecy.co/



Yeah, me too.  Part get raptured and part don't.


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## SemperFiDawg (Nov 12, 2020)

Paul Shon said:


> This is where the confusion occurs.



No doubt.  The question then becomes "Exactly Who is confused?"



> Anticipating a pre-tribulation rapture does not motivate anyone. Did God really create a zero-incentive program?



Answer noted.  



> An excerpt from my book – given away at no cost.



And apparently documented as well.


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## SemperFiDawg (Nov 12, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> The ones who would be greatest among you will be the servant of all.
> 
> The last will be first, and the first will be last.
> 
> Wonder where those scriptures fit in to that partial reward rapture.



I always understood the first to be the Gentiles and the last Israel.  ???? Thoughts Pappy??


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