# Contrasting Islam and Christianity



## atlashunter (Dec 30, 2010)

Branching this off of a discussion on the political forum.



hawglips said:


> My religion was founded by Jesus Christ.  Apolitical.  Tolerant.  Loving.  Nothing barbaric in any stretch of the English language or distortion by you or anyone else.
> 
> In very sharp contrast, the Islamic "religion" was founded by a warmonger who spread his religion by the sword and jihad and pillaging armies so that he could gain political control over vast areas of land and the people inhabiting it.
> 
> And since Mohammed, nothing has changed.



Luke 19:27
But those my enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring here, and slay them before me.

So much for love and tolerance. Not to mention that with Jesus comes the introduction of a place of eternal torment. What could be more barbaric than that?


If you really want to know who founded your religion I would suggest picking up a book or two by Bart Ehrman.


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## stringmusic (Dec 30, 2010)

The language sounds harsh to modern ears but fits the cultural setting of the story. The situation of those who reject the rule of Christ is dire, and the offer of forgiveness does not last forever.


Oh and while we are at suggesting books, Case for Christ by Lee Strobel, and if you have time read the thread titled "modern revolutionist" in the A/A/A forum.


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## centerpin fan (Dec 30, 2010)

atlashunter said:


> If you really want to know who founded your religion I would suggest picking up a book or two by Bart Ehrman.



I could not care less about Bart Ehrman or anybody like him.  The media loves people like Ehrman:  agnostic religion professors who enjoy taking swipes at the Bible and the church.


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## atlashunter (Dec 30, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> The language sounds harsh to modern ears but fits the cultural setting of the story. The situation of those who reject the rule of Christ is dire, and the offer of forgiveness does not last forever.



That's fine if you want to believe it. But at least have the honesty to acknowledge the totalitarian nature of the claim, something that christians love to criticize islam for being.


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## atlashunter (Dec 30, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> I could not care less about Bart Ehrman or anybody like him.  The media loves people like Ehrman:  agnostic religion professors who enjoy taking swipes at the Bible and the church.



Ehrman came from the church and is simply informing people of the history of biblical scripture. It says a lot that so many christians take issue with that.


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## stringmusic (Dec 30, 2010)

atlashunter said:


> That's fine if you want to believe it. But at least have the honesty to acknowledge the totalitarian nature of the claim, something that christians love to criticize islam for being.



It is what it is.


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## stringmusic (Dec 30, 2010)

atlashunter said:


> Ehrman came from the church and is simply informing people of the history of biblical scripture. It says a lot that so many christians take issue with that.



Thats fine, just dont follow one person on this subject, get some different views on it.


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## centerpin fan (Dec 30, 2010)

atlashunter said:


> Ehrman came from the church ...



... and is an agnostic now, which is the only reason we know his name.  The media promote people they agree with, such as Ehrman, Shelby Spong and the "Jesus Seminar".




atlashunter said:


> Ehrman ... is simply informing people of the history of biblical scripture.



Do you really believe Bart Ehrman is the only person who understands "the history of biblical scripture""?  There are many fine scholars who disagree completely with him.  He's informing people of his take on scripture, and that's it.    




atlashunter said:


> It says a lot that so many christians take issue with that.



I take issue with the media telling me who I should be listening to on matters of faith.  What they understand about Christianity, you could fit in a thimble.


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## atlashunter (Dec 30, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> Do you really believe Bart Ehrman is the only person who understands "the history of biblical scripture""?  There are many fine scholars who disagree completely with him.  He's informing people of his take on scripture, and that's it.



Aside from the evangelicals, his work is not controversial in biblical scholarship even among believers.




centerpin fan said:


> I take issue with the media telling me who I should be listening to on matters of faith.  What they understand about Christianity, you could fit in a thimble.



Ehrman is approaching scripture from a historical point of view. Faith has nothing to do with it. If you aren't interested in the historical facts concerning new testament scripture and early christianity then there is no reason to pick up his books. If you are interested in learning about those then your faith can be left at the door.


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## post450 (Dec 30, 2010)

For one to place so much trust and confidence in Ehrman and his views is quite a leap of faith in itself. Josephus was there and all scholars can't even agree on his works. Written history from 2,000 years ago remains a controversial subject and to believe this man has all the historical facts correct as presented is a stretch at best. 

His books have been criticized for a lack of detail and references of his sources, but that shouldn't come as a surprise, all he really needs to do is instill a little doubt and conjure up some controversial claims to sell books and generate speaking engagements. Like most everything else, it becomes more about the dollar than the truth.


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## centerpin fan (Dec 30, 2010)

atlashunter said:


> Aside from the evangelicals, his work is not controversial in biblical scholarship even among believers.



That's a big group you're talking about there.  It's kind of like saying "Aside from Republicans and independents, Obama's agenda is not controversial ..."




atlashunter said:


> Ehrman is approaching scripture from a historical point of view.



He's not the first.




atlashunter said:


> If you aren't interested in the historical facts concerning new testament scripture and early christianity then there is no reason to pick up his books.



I'm very interested in scripture and the early church.  If I see one of his books, I'll check it out.  I'll be shocked, though,  if it's anything I haven't seen before.


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## atlashunter (Dec 30, 2010)

post450 said:


> For one to place so much trust and confidence in Ehrman and his views is quite a leap of faith in itself. Josephus was there and all scholars can't even agree on his works. Written history from 2,000 years ago remains a controversial subject and to believe this man has all the historical facts correct as presented is a stretch at best.
> 
> His books have been criticized for a lack of detail and references of his sources, but that shouldn't come as a surprise, all he really needs to do is instill a little doubt and conjure up some controversial claims to sell books and generate speaking engagements. Like most everything else, it becomes more about the dollar than the truth.



Which of his books have you read? When he points out for example that our earliest manuscripts of the book of John do not contain the story of the adulterous woman brought before Jesus for stoning and was later added by scribes in different parts of John or even in other gospels, that is a point of fact that can be confirmed by going to the manuscripts. He leaves the interpretation or conclusions to be drawn from that fact up to the reader. His books contain many of these discrepencies found in various manuscripts. Now maybe you don't think seeing how stories changed over time or how they contradict each other or how they came to be what they are today (such as the development of the doctrine of the trinity in the early church) is of any value and if you don't that is your choice. I think it is of value to anyone honestly seeking the truth. No one, including Ehrman, is claiming infallibility (what a straw man by the way). But the information he provides is very useful in learning about the bible and it is information your not likely to get in church.


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## centerpin fan (Dec 30, 2010)

atlashunter said:


> ... he points out for example that our earliest manuscripts of the book of John do not contain the story of the adulterous woman brought before Jesus for stoning ...



This is not new.  Every Bible translation I own makes a note of this, and they say the same thing about the last twelve verses of Mark.


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## gtparts (Dec 30, 2010)

atlashunter said:


> Branching this off of a discussion on the political forum.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Pulled one verse out of a parable, a story to illustrate a principle or truth...... that is not worthy of a response. Your implication is that vs. 27 instructs the Christian on how he is to behave, when it was intended to use a somewhat familiar worldly situation to show a reward system for those who are faithful. Why would you take such a negative position on giving the greatest reward to the one with the greatest loyalty and performance? Most would agree that is the fair thing to do. 
As to the matter of a king destroying his enemies (or having them destroyed, as is the usual case with earthly kings), why do you suppose a monarch would do such a thing? I would think he would do that to preserve his own life, his throne, and his heirs and subjects and their way of life. Rest assured God has no concern for preserving His life (He is life!) and His throne is under no threat. But, His enemies would destroy His people, whom He guards and protects jealously, if He allowed it. 

So, it seems, you have a very poor understanding of Scripture and and even poorer understanding of God.

God only asks His children to be obedient to Him, loyal to Him. That which He loves, they should love. That which He hates, they should hate. That the holy, sovereign God reserves vengeance for Himself is only right. He is the only one who is worthy and righteous to inflict punishment in return for a wrong committed against Him or His people. For man, it is barbaric, for we are not holy and just. For God, it is just retribution to destroy those that oppose Him.

As a side note, even Christians are to be intolerant of many things. 

Proverbs 10:21
  Many are helped by useful instruction,    but fools are killed by their own stupidity. 


Proverbs 13:20
He that walketh with wise men shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed.


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## post450 (Dec 30, 2010)

Atlashunter, I haven't read any of Ehrman's books because I find it hard to take him seriously. His overall perspective is skewed, as you likely feel the church's is. His mission is solely to disprove and undermine the Sovereignty of Jesus through attacks on Biblical texts. He stands to make no financial gain or national exposure from any affirmations of Christ and therefore his search for the truth was actually only a search for error. You promote him, so therefore you must have faith in what he says. That is the point I was attempting to make. 

Since there is not a baseline or original texts to measure against, his theories or claims, such certain NT books being forgeries written centuries later, can not be proved or disproved,  they are just hyperbole which helps him sell more books. I would think a serious scholar should be more interested in research and well documented facts than reaching the NY Times Best Seller list. FWIW, I don't take Glen Beck, Joel Osteen, or Benny Hinn seriously on religious matters either.

If anyone is honestly seeking truth, then a broader spectrum of reading would definately be in order, but many Christian people don't have sufficient knowledge of the Bible to begin in depth studies of Greek and Hebrew manuscripts. Good thing Ehrman has simplified it for us.

BTW, when are we gonna get to the Islam/Christianity contrasts?


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## mtnwoman (Dec 30, 2010)

The devil and his demons are my enemies, I slay them daily with my sword.

Perhaps some don't comprehend who the enemy really is.
God's word also says 'Thou shalt not kill', I'm assuming He's talking in the flesh here.


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## atlashunter (Dec 30, 2010)

mtnwoman said:


> The devil and his demons are my enemies, I slay them daily with my sword.
> 
> Perhaps some don't comprehend who the enemy really is.
> God's word also says 'Thou shalt not kill', I'm assuming He's talking in the flesh here.



Except of course when he does instruct people to kill.

The point from the original post is that Jesus according to christians own religious text is not the peacenik they often paint him as. The koran instructs believers to engage in violence, so does the bible. Islam is totalitarian in nature, so is christianity. Christians who get off on hurling stones at other religions need to stop and take an honest look at their own.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 30, 2010)

atlashunter said:


> Except of course when he does instruct people to kill.
> 
> The point from the original post is that Jesus according to christians own religious text is not the peacenik they often paint him as. The koran instructs believers to engage in violence, so does the bible. Islam is totalitarian in nature, so is christianity. Christians who get off on hurling stones at other religions need to stop and take an honest look at their own.



Christians live in the NT, whereas the muslims still live by the OT.  So everyone except another muslim is an enemy in their mind. They hurl real stones, not just words. Not that I think it's ok for Christians to dog out others, I'm just sayin'.  I'd rather face a Jehovah's Witness at my door armed with the Bible, asking me if I was converted  than a muslim armed with the Koran.  You may see no difference, but I do.


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## atlashunter (Dec 30, 2010)

mtnwoman said:


> Christians live in the NT, whereas the muslims still live by the OT.  So everyone except another muslim is an enemy in their mind. They hurl real stones, not just words. Not that I think it's ok for Christians to dog out others, I'm just sayin'.  I'd rather face a Jehovah's Witness at my door armed with the Bible, asking me if I was converted  than a muslim armed with the Koran.  You may see no difference, but I do.



Then why did christians burn women they believed to be witches if they only live by the NT? They still cherry pick parts of the OT that they use and I've never heard a christian deny that the OT is the infallible word of their God. That would include the murderous parts.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 30, 2010)

atlashunter said:


> Then why did christians burn women they believed to be witches if they only live by the NT? They still cherry pick parts of the OT that they use and I've never heard a christian deny that the OT is the infallible word of their God. That would include the murderous parts.



So called Christians burned witches.  Actually the so called witches were mostly women that used herbs and such that the bible says for us to use for healing. The doctors of that time, just as the doctors of this time deny how much herbs do for us. Because of the practice of medicine and the loss of business by the doctors created a lot of the havoc regarding witches.....satan at work again...he is the master of deception.  

I didn't mean that Christians didn't believe the OT, I tried to use the right words so no one would take it that way.
What I meant is we live in NT times, where we treat our enemies like Christ treated His enemies. I personally don't know of Christians that go around chopping off heads in the name of their God....some muslims still do that....they are living in the OT. Do you know of any Christians that do that today?

I strive to have mercy and grace on others who do not believe the way that I believe, and that includes witches, pagans, muslims, etc etc and do not have murder in my heart. I will take up the sword if I have to, but I'm hoping that will never happen...but it would be only in defense, and then I'm not exactly sure if I could then to be honest with you. Except if I'm not raptured before armagaddon. And I'm pretty sure I'll be long gone.


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## atlashunter (Dec 30, 2010)

A moderate muslim would say those hurling stones are not true muslims just as you are suggesting those who burned "witches" at the stake were not true christians. The truth is those who burn witches were obeying the bible that you claim is the infallible word of God just as the violent muslims are following the letter of their text.

It's good that you would not initiate violence against others. You probably don't accept slavery as moral either even though the NT does. You are a good person not because of what the bible says but in spite of it.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 30, 2010)

atlashunter said:


> A moderate muslim would say those hurling stones are not true muslims just as you are suggesting those who burned "witches" at the stake were not true christians. The truth is those who burn witches were obeying the bible that you claim is the infallible word of God just as the violent muslims are following the letter of their text.Yes, I realize that, doesn't mean either is right in their thinking.  God gave us the Holy Spirit for discernment and conviction, those who do not know or understand who Jesus is, do not have that conviction or discernment. And those of us who do, are to be graceful and merciful to those who don't. You can't expect those who don't know Jesus to have that.
> 
> It's good that you would not initiate violence against others. You probably don't accept slavery as moral either even though the NT does. You are a good person not because of what the bible says but in spite of it.



I may have been a good person to start with, likely not, but study, prayer, discernment, praying for my unbelief at least made me choose to live in the light instead of in the darkness. I prayed for wisdom, I begged for wisdom...I long to be like my Saviour and He has tenderized my heart and is trying to purge and create a clean heart in me, and I try to be open to it.




Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

And that verse has helped me at least seek the right dividing of the word and know that it exists and is possible.


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## atlashunter (Dec 31, 2010)

Then christians don't worship the same God as the jews either.


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## atlashunter (Dec 31, 2010)

Sorry to break it to you but the jews don't believe God has a son. Thanks for playing.


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## mtnwoman (Jan 1, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Sorry to break it to you but the jews don't believe God has a son. Thanks for playing.



The Jews are temporarily blinded, is the only reason they don't believe. They will believe.



John 12:39-41 (King James Version)

 39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 

 40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 

 41These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jan 1, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Then christians don't worship the same God as the jews either.


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## mtnwoman (Jan 1, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Then christians don't worship the same God as the jews either.



Actually they do, just an 'enhanced' version.
Back to rightly dividing the word.


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## atlashunter (Jan 1, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Actually they do, just an 'enhanced' version.
> Back to rightly dividing the word.



Go ask a Jewish rabbi if Judaism teaches that their God has a son and his name is Jesus Christ. You'll get the same answer you get from the Muslim. So by the standard the other poster set, Christians do not worship the God of the Muslims or the Jews.

Think your messiah will return to fulfill the unfulfilled prophesies and the Jews will see they were blinded if you must. You'll go to your grave waiting for that to happen.


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## atlashunter (Jan 1, 2011)

We don't know who wrote Matthew, Mark, Luke or John. Those are just names that were given to the gospels. If you are referring to the disciples you are citing jews who broke away from judaism, assuming the new testament is 100% historically accurate which is extremely unlikely. Like I said before, go ask a jewish rabbi if judaism teaches that God has a son and his name is Jesus Christ. Better yet pick up the Torah yourself and see if you can find where it says that God has a son.

The jews reject the divinity of Jesus just like muslims do. So if on that basis one isn't worshiping the christian god, the same must be true of the other.

So if christians don't worship the god of Abraham as muslims and jews do (according to the standard that you set), what god do they worship?


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## atlashunter (Jan 1, 2011)

K9,

Jews do not accept the authority of the new testament so quoting it does nothing to make your case.


You say you know who wrote the gospels. Ok who wrote them and how do you know?


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## mtnwoman (Jan 1, 2011)

**k9** said:


> Well, I guess Matthew a Jew, Mark a Jew, Luke a Jew, John a Jew, Peter a Jew, and me a Jew, and many thousands more, must have misunderstood the verse about being blinded cuz be believed and received the only begotten son of God, the Lord Jesus Christ. *Yes, I know that, I didn't mean all Jews, surely you must know I didn't  mean that.*
> 
> It shoud be obvious that Jews  wrote the New Testament and by all the Jews who were saved during that time (thousands added to the church daily)
> *that all Jews were not blinded*.
> ...


 I'm pretty sure most of us here know that...at least those of us believers....and I do know that I a Gentile was grafted into the vine, which is Christ.


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## mtnwoman (Jan 1, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Think your messiah will return to fulfill the unfulfilled prophesies and the Jews will see they were blinded if you must. You'll go to your grave waiting for that to happen.



I may go to my grave waiting for that to happen, but I won't stay in the grave forever because it is going to happen. "those who are dead in Christ will rise first".
Many of the OT prophesies have already come to pass.


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## atlashunter (Jan 1, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> I may go to my grave waiting for that to happen, but I won't stay in the grave forever because it is going to happen. "those who are dead in Christ will rise first".
> Many of the OT prophesies have already come to pass.


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## mtnwoman (Jan 1, 2011)

atlashunter said:


>



Great comeback there buddy.


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## atlashunter (Jan 1, 2011)

**k9** said:


> Immanuel is written about in the Old Testament, God with us, the son that is given, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father.
> 
> You don't seem to except the authority of the Old Testament or the New Testament, so I will not waste my time.
> 
> You have it figured, so just stick to what you have.



You don't need to take my word for it K9. I can post here plenty of debates about who Jesus actually was between jewish and christian theologians. If you think judaism teaches that god has a son and his name is Jesus Christ you're simply wrong. It's absolutely absurd to suggest otherwise because that is what defines the difference between judaism and christianity. You've already admitted that the jews are "blinded" so you've already conceded the point without realizing it.


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## atlashunter (Jan 1, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Great comeback there buddy.



There really is no good comeback to such a delusional claim. You may as well claim you'll pop out of the grave as a vampire 5,000 years from now. There's just as much evidence to support the claim. Sometimes all you can do with delusion is walk away from it.


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## gtparts (Jan 1, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> K9,
> 
> Jews do not accept the authority of the new testament so quoting it does nothing to make your case.
> 
> ...



Again, AH, you are just being obtuse. K9 and Lowjack ARE Jews! So are many others I have met and known over the years who confess the Son-ship of Jesus, the divine mystery of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. 

It is obvious that at least some Jews have placed their eternal destiny in the hands of their Lord and Savior, Jesus (Yeshua  Hamashiach). The blanket statement you keep making about Jews not worshiping a God with a Son, who is God, is simply not true. Until you qualify which Jews you are talking about, you just come across as ignorant. You seem to confuse the beliefs of strict Judaism with the varied beliefs of Jews. One can be a Jew and a Christian.


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## mtnwoman (Jan 1, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> There really is no good comeback to such a delusional claim. You may as well claim you'll pop out of the grave as a vampire 5,000 years from now. There's just as much evidence to support the claim. Sometimes all you can do with delusion is walk away from it.



But I don't want to pop out of the grave as a vampire.

I will be resurrected as Christ was resurrected and have a glorified body as Christ. Believe it or not. 
It's just as delusional to deny it, what proof do you have that it won't happen?


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## atlashunter (Jan 1, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Again, AH, you are just being obtuse. K9 and Lowjack ARE Jews! So are many others I have met and known over the years who confess the Son-ship of Jesus, the divine mystery of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
> 
> It is obvious that at least some Jews have placed their eternal destiny in the hands of their Lord and Savior, Jesus (Yeshua  Hamashiach). The blanket statement you keep making about Jews not worshiping a God with a Son, who is God, is simply not true. Until you qualify which Jews you are talking about, you just come across as ignorant. You seem to confuse the beliefs of strict Judaism with the varied beliefs of Jews. One can be a Jew and a Christian.



Let's cut to the chase.

"God has a son and his name is Jesus Christ."

The above statement is not a tenet of judaism and quoting new testament scripture not only fails to make the case it demonstrates a massive ignorance of judaism. You may as well start quoting the koran.

Like I said, k9 already admitted to the jews being "blinded", meaning they reject the christian claim that Jesus is the son of God so the point is already conceded.


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## atlashunter (Jan 1, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> But I don't want to pop out of the grave as a vampire.
> 
> I will be resurrected as Christ was resurrected and have a glorified body as Christ. Believe it or not.
> It's just as delusional to deny it, what proof do you have that it won't happen?



Reality is not dependent on what you want. I have as much proof that you won't pop out of the grave as you have that you won't pop out of the grave as a vampire. There is no more reason to believe one than the other. Both are superstitions.


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## mtnwoman (Jan 1, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> I have as much proof that you won't pop out of the grave as you have that you won't pop out of the grave as a vampire.



Then why am I the one who is delusional because I believe differently than you?

You have no proof either way, in my heart and in my mind, no matter how delusional I may seem to you, I have all the proof I need.  I have disbelieved, so I know all the arguments on that. I once was blind, but now I see


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## mtnwoman (Jan 1, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Let's cut to the chase.
> 
> "God has a son and his name is Jesus Christ."
> 
> ...



I don't think k9's post are really that hard to comprehend, now come on.

Not all Jews practice Judaism, some do. Some Jews are converted to Christianity, some are not. They are still Jews, ethnically. Some gentiles have been converted to judaism, they aren't Jewish by descent, but by conversion.
Some Jews are Christians, some practice Judaism and I know a couple of ethnic Jews who are pagan by choice of belief, they are still Jews. Some Jews are still blinded but only in part, meaning, only part of the Jews are blinded, because part have been converted to Christianity and yet..WOW get this...they are still Jews.

Here we go round the mulberry bush....


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## hawglips (Jan 1, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Branching this off of a discussion on the political forum.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Are you serious?  Either you are joking around, or maybe you should try picking up the Bible and reading it instead of Ehrman's books and google searches on the word "slay" in the Bible.

You're pretending a parable about a fictitious nobleman told to make a point means Jesus was telling folks to slay someone?

Surely you are jesting.

But by very stark contrast, the founder of Islam was a man of the sword that used killing of others to advance his "religion."  And his example in that regard and teachings about slaying of non-believers is still being faithfully followed and carried out today by Muslims around the world.

"Allah Akbar" is the last phrase to leave the lips of his disciples as they make the ultimate sacrifice of self in order to murder as many nonbelievers as possible, and receive their 72 virgin reward with Mohammed in the afterlife.


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## mtnwoman (Jan 1, 2011)

hawglips said:


> Are you serious?  Either you are joking around, or maybe you should try picking up the Bible and reading it instead of Ehrman's books and google searches on the word "slay" in the Bible.
> 
> You're pretending a parable about a fictitious nobleman told to make a point means Jesus was telling folks to slay someone?
> 
> ...



Agreed.

And the muslims who are willing to kill you, say they will kill you if you don't believe the way they believe and they aren't kidding. And that includes anyone who doesn't believe the way they do, not just Christians.....any one.

So anyone who thinks it's a war between religions is seriously mistaken and better take heed. If you are anything else besides a muslim, you are a target.

I'm not necessarily referring to some of the muslims that seem peaceful and live in our country, etc. But I am still unsure of what they might do as a group, nobody really knows that.

And that ain't no delusion either....we have proof of what they believe and what they will do.


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## gtparts (Jan 1, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Let's cut to the chase.
> 
> "God has a son and his name is Jesus Christ."
> 
> ...



You are correct about the quotation above not being a tenet of Judaism. However, there are Christian Jews, so your assertion that Christians and Jews worship different Gods may be true for some Jews, BUT not ALL Jews. Your statement to that affect is therefor false. 

Regardless, the basic characteristics attributed to Allah by Muslims are contradictory to those basic characteristics found in Judaic and Christian scripture concerning the nature of Jehovah. Allah and Jehovah are clearly not the one and the same.


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## atlashunter (Jan 1, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Sometimes all you can do with delusion is walk away from it.



As I said before...


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## atlashunter (Jan 1, 2011)

gtparts said:


> You are correct about the quotation above not being a tenet of Judaism. However, there are Christian Jews, so your assertion that Christians and Jews worship different Gods may be true for some Jews, BUT not ALL Jews. Your statement to that affect is therefor false.



When I am speaking about jews I am not talking about ethnicity, I'm talking about someone who practices judaism. Of course a jew who has converted to christianity is worshiping the christian god. Surely no one is so dense as to think that is what I was saying. Especially since I repeatedly referred to the Torah, jewish rabbis and that jews don't consider the new testament as scripture in their religion. So we finally agree, this is not a tenet of judaism. As such, christians and jews worship different gods, not according to me but according to the guy who came here saying muslims don't worship the same god on that basis. If anything at least muslims and jews are true monotheists. Christians are borderline polytheists.

If it's ok for christians to co-opt the god of Abraham I don't see what place they have to deny muslims the same.


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## atlashunter (Jan 2, 2011)

hawglips said:


> Are you serious?  Either you are joking around, or maybe you should try picking up the Bible and reading it instead of Ehrman's books and google searches on the word "slay" in the Bible.
> 
> You're pretending a parable about a fictitious nobleman told to make a point means Jesus was telling folks to slay someone?
> 
> Surely you are jesting.



Who do you think is the king Jesus is referring to in the parable?


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## post450 (Jan 2, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Who do you think is the king Jesus is referring to in the parable?



Your hatred of Jesus is duly noted, but one last question about the contrast. If Christians, Jews, and Muslims are all equally delusional, then would you prefer to live in a predominately Christian society or one that is comprised of a Muslim majority?


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## atlashunter (Jan 2, 2011)

post450 said:


> Your hatred of Jesus is duly noted, but one last question about the contrast. If Christians, Jews, and Muslims are all equally delusional, then would you prefer to live in a predominately Christian society or one that is comprised of a Muslim majority?



I'd prefer a secular society to either. But between the two I'd choose christian. They've become much better at ignoring the evil parts of their scripture than muslims.


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## mtnwoman (Jan 2, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> When I am speaking about jews I am not talking about ethnicity, I'm talking about someone who practices judaism. Of course a jew who has converted to christianity is worshiping the christian god. Surely no one is so dense as to think that is what I was saying. Especially since I repeatedly referred to the Torah, jewish rabbis and that jews don't consider the new testament as scripture in their religion.  *I'm glad you get it. We kept saying exactly what you are saying here, yet you refuted it over and over.*
> 
> If it's ok for christians to co-opt the god of Abraham I don't see what place they have to deny muslims the same.



So you don't deny that muslims should be able to carry out the laws they believe their god requests of them?  Thank God you aren't in charge of our country's defense, or for that matter, my personal defense.

Why is it only the Christians that feel the need to battle or deny them? Even if it is using our swords(the Word of God). Because folks like you don't care? it's ok, it's what they believe, don't deny them???....Lord God Almighty help us and give us at least some reasonable "back" who knows their own enemy. 

Well I certainly do deny extreme muslim beliefs, Christian or not, I deny anyone should go around beheading people because they believe differently, I don't care how much YOU think they should have free reign to practice their religion to the fullest. And because of people like you the extreme muslims will continue to be left alone to do allah's murdering.


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## mtnwoman (Jan 2, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> I'd prefer a secular society to either. But between the two I'd choose christian. They've become much better at ignoring the evil parts of their scripture than muslims.



Not ingnoring the evil parts, but understanding them.

I slay evil spirits out of my life on a daily basis. I slay evil thoughts that come from my enemy.....I am slaying my spiritual enemy not my physical enemy. I certainly don't ignore them as you are saying. I slay the giants in my life everyday, whether it be a money problem giant, a health problem giant, people who think all muslims are a-ok,  anything that is my enemy I slay it with my sword (the Word of God). Debating is one way I keep my sword sharp, makes me search the word.

Don't think for a moment, that I don't read and ponder on  unbelievers posts, I do. They make me think, make me study, make me search the word. Debating is just another weapon God gives me to use against any unbelief/misunderstanding I may have.

Romans 8:28 (King James Version)

 28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.


So no matter what you say to me(which we've all heard 10000 times) it works for my good.  So we aren't ignoring anything. We at least know who/what our enemies are, thank God I am no longer blind to that.


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## mtnwoman (Jan 2, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Who do you think is the king Jesus is referring to in the parable?



You...or any nonbeliever, the Jews at that moment.

If you read the entire chapter you realize that Jesus is talking about the Jews who do not believe, to put them aside. And you see in the chapter that on one was literally slain.
Even today the Jews are still fighting for the holy promised land and many have been slain, by their own choice.

But then again because of the Jews, we were able to be grafted into the vine, adopted by the King of the Jews. That's one reason why Christians love the Jews so much, they've died for us and most don't even know it.

Just MHO


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## atlashunter (Jan 2, 2011)

**k9** said:


> When you said, "But between the two *I'd choose christian*."
> 
> By your statement you have assumed that it would be your choice just to choose to be a Christian IF and WHEN the fancy struck you. How presumptious and arrogant can  someone be?  (That Much!)



I was answering the hypothetical asked by post as to which society I would prefer to live in, not what religion I would prefer to follow. Reading comprehension...




**k9** said:


> A person can cross a point with God, where God will harden your heart and will not allow them to hear the word of God and believe and repent that they might be saved.



Really? And here I thought christians claimed their god gives you free will. Wow. So god actually manipulates mens minds so that they will reject him so he can send them to a lake of fire forever and ever. What a wonderful moral being! And you worship this monster?




**k9** said:


> You don't get to come to God when you feel like it. Oh No, God does not allow that.  If God chooses by his mercy and grace to call you by the word of God, then, that is the moment when a person is given the opportunity to receive the Lord.  Without God they are already dead in trespasses and sins according to the scriptures.



Anyone who doesn't believe as you do is dead. Got it.




**k9** said:


> AGAIN, YOU DON'T HAVE A CHOICE TO RECEIVE THE LORD UNLESS GOD OFFERS IT.



And god has made you this offer that not everyone gets. That makes you special. I understand where you're coming from.


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## atlashunter (Jan 2, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> So you don't deny that muslims should be able to carry out the laws they believe their god requests of them?  Thank God you aren't in charge of our country's defense, or for that matter, my personal defense.



I have no idea what brought you to this conclusion. I certainly didn't say that.




mtnwoman said:


> Why is it only the Christians that feel the need to battle or deny them? Even if it is using our swords(the Word of God). Because folks like you don't care? it's ok, it's what they believe, don't deny them???....Lord God Almighty help us and give us at least some reasonable "back" who knows their own enemy.



I think I've demonstrated a certain comfort level here with confronting other beliefs. I can dish it to muslims as well as christians. And I'm all for using whatever level of force is necessary to defend life and property. I don't deny anyone the right to believe absolutely anything they want. All I demand is that they keep their mitts to themself and I will do the same. I assume you and I are in agreement on this point.





mtnwoman said:


> Well I certainly do deny extreme muslim beliefs, Christian or not, I deny anyone should go around beheading people because they believe differently, I don't care how much YOU think they should have free reign to practice their religion to the fullest. And because of people like you the extreme muslims will continue to be left alone to do allah's murdering.



See above.


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## atlashunter (Jan 2, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Not ingnoring the evil parts, but understanding them.
> 
> Don't think for a moment, that I don't read and ponder on  unbelievers posts, I do. They make me think, make me study, make me search the word. Debating is just another weapon God gives me to use against any unbelief/misunderstanding I may have.
> 
> So no matter what you say to me(which we've all heard 10000 times) it works for my good.  So we aren't ignoring anything. We at least know who/what our enemies are, thank God I am no longer blind to that.



Concerning the part in blue all I can do is give you big thumbs up.  I was also a believer at one time. My searching, reading, and thinking led me to abandon faith. Maybe it takes you in the other direction but as long as someone hasn't become so fearful as to stop thinking for themselves I think this is a good thing.

Concerning the ignoring of the evil parts what I meant was that the bible sanctions slavery and commands that witches be put to death (among many other evils). Christians at one time followed the letter of those scriptures. Now they no longer do. The scriptures remain but the practice of the believers has evolved and become more civilized. That still needs to happen in many parts of the muslim world.


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## atlashunter (Jan 2, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> You...or any nonbeliever, the Jews at that moment.
> 
> If you read the entire chapter you realize that Jesus is talking about the Jews who do not believe, to put them aside. And you see in the chapter that on one was literally slain.
> Even today the Jews are still fighting for the holy promised land and many have been slain, by their own choice.
> ...



The king Jesus is referring to is me or any other non-believer? That doesn't make any sense at all. The king he is referring to is himself/god. Reject his rule and you'll be murdered is the message.


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## atlashunter (Jan 2, 2011)

**k9** said:


> Those who rejected the word heard someone say the words, but they did not not receive the words with faith. No, they doubted, questioned, changed to suit themselves, corrupted, rejected....



Yes! Doubt and question and refuse to accept what is obviously a man made creation without any evidence! Exactly what you would do if approached with any other religion. It's no accident most believers have been brainwashed from early childhood to believe their religion.


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## atlashunter (Jan 2, 2011)

**k9** said:


> According to you, you believed once (so God must have offered you the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ), but don't now, as you are a free thinker.You have a free will to reject Chirst, which you have already excercised. You see I know how to answer according to your folly. So yes, you have a free will. God did not make you believe him or make you reject him. He gave you the free will to choose, and you did both times.



I'm sorry but you are talking complete nonsense. First you say god hardens men's hearts then you say he gives them free will. You are contradicting yourself. Which is it?

Besides, it's a mockery of free will to say that someone has free will when you're pointing a gun (he11) at their head.

I know you mean well but you're just digging yourself deeper. Every claim you make about your god only paints him in a worse and worse light.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 2, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> I don't deny anyone the right to believe absolutely anything they want. All I demand is that they keep their mitts to themself and I will do the same. I assume you and I are in agreement on this point.



Based on your above statement, I'd like to ask you to "move it on along" to the A/A/A forum which is located about 2 or three forums below this one.

This forum is where Spiritual people come to discuss and study together.
This isn't the place for atheist to come pounding their chest.


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## apoint (Jan 2, 2011)

I too was an strong believer in nothing just like atlashunter. Then God wised me up to his truth and opened my eyes. The devil is a great deciever but no one out does God and his truth.
  Atlas are you sure you arnt old earl reincarnated?


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## atlashunter (Jan 2, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Based on your above statement, I'd like to ask you to "move it on along" to the A/A/A forum which is located about 2 or three forums below this one.
> 
> This forum is where Spiritual people come to discuss and study together.
> This isn't the place for atheist to come pounding their chest.



The above was nothing more than an affirmation people should be free to believe anything they want without fear of violence. Didn't realize that view constituted atheist chest pounding. I'll restrict future posts to that forum.


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## mtnwoman (Jan 2, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> I'd prefer a secular society to either. But between the two I'd choose christian. They've become much better at ignoring the evil parts of their scripture than muslims.



Believe it or not there are many Christians who do many good things for other people. Especially missionaries. I'm not saying non-Christians don't. But being organized to feed and clothe millions of people around the world is a pretty good thing. So it's not always about evil, ya know?

Even if we're just a pack of dogooders in this time and place, I am thankful I have the heart in me to feel the way I feel. And if'n I were delusional, I'm glad to no longer live in darkness, seeking happiness from this world we live in. I still choose the way of Jesus.


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## mtnwoman (Jan 2, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> The above was nothing more than an affirmation people should be free to believe anything they want without fear of violence.



You're preachin' to the wrong folks. I think you should find bin laden and tell him that. Course it's easier to come here where you have no fear of violence.


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