# Christopher Hitchens RIP



## pnome (Dec 16, 2011)

Heard the news this morning that Hitch is dead.

http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2011/12/In-Memoriam-Christopher-Hitchens-19492011

I agreed with him a lot more than I disagreed.  Wasn't always a fan of his tactics, but a lot of what he said resonated with me.

Just wanted to start a thread in this forum so everyone believers or not could discuss.


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## centerpin fan (Dec 16, 2011)

I disagreed with him on religious matters, but we shared the same opinion of the Clintons.  His book about them made me a fan for life:

http://www.amazon.com/No-One-Left-Lie-Values/dp/1859842844

He was a frequent guest on Hugh Hewitt's radio show.  I always looked forward to his segments.


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## formula1 (Dec 16, 2011)

*Re:*

I'm sorry for the loss of someone you respected. I hope he had an opportunity to repent before his death. One thing is is for sure is he now knows the reality of God and the sacrifice of Christ.  I feel like that is all I can say!


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## pnome (Dec 16, 2011)

formula1 said:


> I'm sorry for the loss of someone you respected. I hope he had an opportunity to repent before his death. One thing is is for sure is *he now knows the reality of God and the sacrifice of Christ*.  I feel like that is all I can say!



So, he's just starting his eternal torture for his crime of not believing that Jesus was divine?


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## formula1 (Dec 16, 2011)

pnome said:


> So, he's just starting his eternal torture for his crime of not believing that Jesus was divine?



I did not say that or think it, but you did! Wonder why?

The comment you highlighted is merely to portray that the question of the the reality of God and Christ has been answered for him.  And my thoughts of him were portrayed well - and I am not the judge nor could I be because I don't know him! I hope for his repentance... that is all... as I hope for anyone.  Sorry you cannot see that.


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## stringmusic (Dec 16, 2011)

pnome said:


> So, he's just starting his eternal torture for his crime of not believing that Jesus was divine?



You could say it like that or you could say it like he didn't want a relationship with Jesus and now he doesn't have to worry about Jesus ever again. Hitchens got exactly what he wanted, could God be any nicer then to give us exactly what we want?


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## pnome (Dec 16, 2011)

formula1 said:


> *I did not say that or think it*, but you did! Wonder why?
> 
> The comment you highlighted is merely to portray that the question of the the reality of God and Christ has been answered for him.  And my thoughts of him were portrayed well - and I am not the judge nor could I be because I don't know him! I hope for his repentance... that is all... as I hope for anyone.  Sorry you cannot see that.



Careful.  Last I checked lying was a sin.


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## pnome (Dec 16, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> You could say it like that or you could say it like he didn't want a relationship with Jesus and now he doesn't have to worry about Jesus ever again. Hitchens got exactly what he wanted, could God be any nicer then to give us exactly what we want?



So, he's spending eternity in his own Jesus free version of heaven?  Drinking Scotch and writing books for all the other Atheists in Atheist Heaven?


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## formula1 (Dec 16, 2011)

pnome said:


> Careful.  Last I checked lying was a sin.



I have always respected you... until this moment. But I can take it...Jesus took far worse for me!


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## pnome (Dec 16, 2011)

formula1 said:


> I have always respected you... until this moment. But I can take it...Jesus took far worse for me!



So, you're telling me truthfully that you didn't think, at some point after learning he was dead, that he's suffering now?


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## formula1 (Dec 16, 2011)

*Re:*



pnome said:


> So, you're telling me truthfully that you didn't think, at some point after learning he was dead, that he's suffering now?



Truthfully!  That's not who I am!

Here are my actual thoughts! Saddened that everything he spoke of in life was anti-God and hopeful that he had a chance to repent, whether I hear those words or not. I felt similarly when other non-Christian famous folks have passed, like Steve Jobs or Osama Bin Laden for example. That's as honest as I can be.  I hope you can get a sense of how I really feel out of these words.


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## pnome (Dec 16, 2011)

formula1 said:


> Truthfully!  That's not who I am!
> 
> Here are my actual thoughts! Saddened that everything he spoke of in life was anti-God and hopeful that he had a chance to repent, whether I hear those words or not. I felt similarly when other non-Christian famous folks have passed, like Steve Jobs or Osama Bin Laden for example. That's as honest as I can be.  I hope you can get a sense of how I really feel out of these words.



OK.  I'll take your word for it.  

But Hitchens had a lot more to say than just the anti-religious stuff.


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## stringmusic (Dec 16, 2011)

pnome said:


> So, he's spending eternity in his own Jesus free version of heaven?  Drinking Scotch and writing books for all the other Atheists in Atheist Heaven?



I don't know what he is doing right now or where he is at. I know that if he didn't want to spend an eternity with Jesus he didn't have to. 

Now, whether you think spending an eternity out of the presence of God is a good or bad thing is a choice everyone gets to make.


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## formula1 (Dec 16, 2011)

*Re:*



pnome said:


> But Hitchens had a lot more to say than just the anti-religious stuff.



I'll have to take your word on that.  I didn't read him and I didn't know him. The only thing honestly I knew before today is a title of one of his books.  That's it!  I'm not well-read outside of Christian material and technical books as that is my profession.  Content in my skin and my faith I suppose!

I can understand that you might find value in his writings or some of his wisdom! I respect that its important to you.


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## pnome (Dec 16, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I don't know what he is doing right now or where he is at. I know that if he didn't want to spend an eternity with Jesus he didn't have to.
> 
> Now, whether you think spending an eternity out of the presence of God is a good or bad thing is a choice everyone gets to make.



So there is no Lake of Fire?


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## rjcruiser (Dec 16, 2011)

pnome said:


> So there is no Lake of Fire?



Read chapter 20...well..maybe read the entire book.  You're pulling things out of order and context a bit...

As to where Hitchens is...he is probably spending eternity apart from God...unless he repented before death.


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## pnome (Dec 16, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Read chapter 20...well..maybe read the entire book.  You're pulling things out of order and context a bit...
> 
> As to where Hitchens is...he is probably spending eternity apart from God...unless he repented before death.



Ok I read it.  It reads like raving lunacy, but I did find this part interesting:



> 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: *and the dead were judged* out of those things which were written in the books, *according to their works*.



But anyway.....

You didn't answer my question.  Is Christopher Hitchens just spending eternity in some Jesus free afterlife, or is he going to be thrown into this lake of fire at some point?


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## stringmusic (Dec 16, 2011)

pnome said:


> Is Christopher Hitchens just spending eternity in some Jesus free afterlife, or is he going to be thrown into this lake of fire at some point?



I don't know that the lake of fire is not metaphoric or symbolic in some way. I don't think physical pain is the worst part of spending life after death apart from Christ anyway.

 Either way the point still stands that if he chose not to spend eternity with God he doesn't have to. I'm sure it's not much fun out of the presence of the Lord.


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## ambush80 (Dec 16, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I don't know that the lake of fire is not metaphoric or symbolic in some way. I don't think physical pain is the worst part of spending life after death apart from Christ anyway.
> 
> Either way the point still stands that if he chose not to spend eternity with God he doesn't have to. I'm sure it's not much fun out of the presence of the Lord.



I'm much better now that the Lord is no longer part of my daily routine.


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## stringmusic (Dec 16, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> I'm much better now that the Lord is no longer part of my daily routine.



The earth is not completly apart from God. Just because you don't have a relationship with Jesus does not mean He is not all around.


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## ambush80 (Dec 16, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> The earth is not completly apart from God. Just because you don't have a relationship with Jesus does not mean He is not all around.



It's all in your (in the general sense) head.


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## pnome (Dec 16, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> *I don't know that the lake of fire is not metaphoric or symbolic in some way*. I don't think physical pain is the worst part of spending life after death apart from Christ anyway.
> 
> Either way the point still stands that if he chose not to spend eternity with God he doesn't have to. I'm sure it's not much fun out of the presence of the Lord.



Tell me again how one discerns which parts of the Bible are metaphor and which are to be read literally.


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## stringmusic (Dec 16, 2011)

pnome said:


> Tell me again how one discerns which parts of the Bible are metaphor and which are to be read literally.



I would say praying is a good way to discern the bible. I try to understand who the authors were writing their letters to and what they were trying to describe in those particular letters.

But then again, there are some parts that I just don't know, like was John being metaphorical or describing the undescribable in Revelation.


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## stringmusic (Dec 16, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> It's all in your (in the general sense) head.



... it's also in my heart and I'm glad it's there.


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## rjcruiser (Dec 16, 2011)

pnome said:


> You didn't answer my question.  Is Christopher Hitchens just spending eternity in some Jesus free afterlife, or is he going to be thrown into this lake of fire at some point?



Not sure.  That lake of fire might be for those who are not followers of Christ after the 1000 year reign on this Earth....as it is going to be destroyed and a new heaven and new earth are going to be created by God.

But....that is way way too far down the path of eschatology that I don't think you're desiring to go.

I think you want a Christian to say Hitchens is in :nono::nono::nono::nono: which is hot and firey.  Well, we know there is gnashing of teath and their is unbearable thirst....so...is it literal fire..not sure, but I imagine it would be like it.



pnome said:


> Tell me again how one discerns which parts of the Bible are metaphor and which are to be read literally.



Context is the best way....also, the language used, the format of the writing.  For example, how do you tell poetry from non-fiction?  Or literal/non-literal writings in non-fiction accounts?

Same for the Bible.  Context context context.


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## ambush80 (Dec 16, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> ... it's also in my heart and I'm glad it's there.



The "heart" you are talking about originates in your head.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 16, 2011)

I don't believe in eternal punishment. In the beginning God said "you will surely die", not suffer for ever and ever. This whole concept is a mistranslation spured on by the rulling bishops in effort to keep the people in submission. Paul's writings were first. What did he believe? See Rom chp 9. Where Paul says that he had rather  be cursed and cut off if it meant that his people would know God. Now surely he would never wish that he himself would suffer eternal punishment forever and ever and ever for the sake of his people. Think about it.


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## rjcruiser (Dec 17, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> I don't believe in eternal punishment. In the beginning God said "you will surely die", not suffer for ever and ever. This whole concept is a mistranslation spured on by the rulling bishops in effort to keep the people in submission. Paul's writings were first. What did he believe? See Rom chp 9. Where Paul says that he had rather  be cursed and cut off if it meant that his people would know God. Now surely he would never wish that he himself would suffer eternal punishment forever and ever and ever for the sake of his people. Think about it.



:nono:

All this from someone who doesn't believe in the Bible....I guess that is how you come up with some of this stuff.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 17, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> The "heart" you are talking about originates in your head.



Says who? you?


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## mtnwoman (Dec 17, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> I'm much better now that the Lord is no longer part of my daily routine.



You have no idea, if I could gettaholtofyou i'd....


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## mtnwoman (Dec 17, 2011)

formula1 said:


> I have always respected you... until this moment. But I can take it...Jesus took far worse for me!



Oh my, I thought the same thing....I know he didn't, did he?
WOW!


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## mtnwoman (Dec 17, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Read chapter 20...well..maybe read the entire book.  You're pulling things out of order and context a bit...
> 
> As to where Hitchens is...he is probably spending eternity apart from God...unless he repented before death.



Amen!


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## mtnwoman (Dec 17, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Not sure.  That lake of fire might be for those who are not followers of Christ after the 1000 year reign on this Earth....as it is going to be destroyed and a new heaven and new earth are going to be created by God.
> 
> But....that is way way too far down the path of eschatology that I don't think you're desiring to go.*I agree! I even hate to think it exists. I know seperation from God would be bad enough for me.*
> 
> ...



Peace


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## mtnwoman (Dec 17, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I would say praying is a good way to discern the bible. I try to understand who the authors were writing their letters to and what they were trying to describe in those particular letters.
> 
> But then again, there are some parts that I just don't know, like was John being metaphorical or describing the undescribable in Revelation.



I agree!!


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## Ronnie T (Dec 17, 2011)

pnome said:


> OK.  I'll take your word for it.
> 
> But Hitchens had a lot more to say than just the anti-religious stuff.



Based on a few of his writings I've read, and based on his reputation and things that he himself said and boasted, I believe the man is now completely seperated from any goodness of God.
In physical life he shared in God's goodness that God had given to all his creation, but it appears now that the man is most likely burning in hel l.
And the man might not have proclaimed believe in the invisible God while alive, but he has now.

I don't know of the last weeks or days or hours of this man's life.... I pray that he might have opened his heart to God and repented of the evil that had previously spewed from his mind and mouth.    Amen.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 17, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> I don't know of the last weeks or days or hours of this man's life.... I pray that he might have opened his heart to God and repented of the evil that had previously spewed from his mind and mouth.    Amen.



I pray so, too, RT.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 18, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> :nono:
> 
> All this from someone who doesn't believe in the Bible....I guess that is how you come up with some of this stuff.



I noticed you did not address what I posted. And where did I get that idea? From the bible.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 18, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> I don't believe in eternal punishment. In the beginning God said "you will surely die", not suffer for ever and ever. This whole concept is a mistranslation spured on by the rulling bishops in effort to keep the people in submission. Paul's writings were first. What did he believe? See Rom chp 9. Where Paul says that he had rather  be cursed and cut off if it meant that his people would know God. Now surely he would never wish that he himself would suffer eternal punishment forever and ever and ever for the sake of his people. Think about it.




You believe all this is found in the Bible?


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## gordon 2 (Dec 18, 2011)

pnome said:


> Tell me again how one discerns which parts of the Bible are metaphor and which are to be read literally.



Sorry to but in,but if you listen to a little Bluegrass, the song is usually literal, but the banjo is metaphorical. Same thing with the books in the bible. The forefront is usually literal and the background metaphorical. Now sometimes you have accapella and sometimes banjo solos. A little time spent in the concert hall and this all comes together. Hope this helps.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 18, 2011)

Also if Mr. Hitchens made a few christians go back and review why they believe in what they do, and they changed a few things more in concert with God's will, well his was a sort of back door ministry.  We should not forget that God says the same thing in many different ways.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 18, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> You believe all this is found in the Bible?


Hello Ronnie. The "He11 concept came from Enoch where angels would be punished for their crime. They are eternal, so therefore eternal punishment. This was attached to Christianity in later years, evolving slowly. He11 is improperly used throughout our bible. The mindset we attach to it is not at all the original writer use of the word "gehnena". This was a garbage dump outside the city where the fire never goes out, because they keep adding to it. Compare to our modern day dumps, except we don't burn them. They did. The Lake of Fire is prepared for the demons, which are fallen angels, see 1Enoch. This burn in he11 forever and ever is not from my God. It is manufactured. To the dust does man return, except those who through Jesus, receive eternal life. I will admit that after years of comparing my belief on this matter to the original intention of the authors, the parable of the "Rich man and Lazarus" LK 16:19, is problematic for me. But since it is a parable, I can continue to go with context. Back to my original point. Paul never showed any signs of believing in eternal punishment.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 18, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> You believe all this is found in the Bible?


I see your point now, no all this is not in the bible. The verses involving Paul's indirect revealing of what he believes about eternal punishment, is found in the bible


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## StriperAddict (Dec 18, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> This burn in he11 forever and ever is not from my God. It is manufactured.




Get your scissors out and cut the words of Christ right out of scripture then... 
Mark 9:42-44 
Luke 12:4-6


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 18, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> Get your scissors out and cut the words of Christ right out of scripture then...
> Mark 9:42-44
> Luke 12:4-6



This will not be popular; Since we don't have "Q" the "fifth gospel" from which Matthew and Luke copied from, we can't assume this writer as inspired.  Notice the exact order of several different events, given in Matthew and Luke, in this chapter alone.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 18, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> Get your scissors out and cut the words of Christ right out of scripture then...
> Mark 9:42-44
> Luke 12:4-6



Yep, just cut them right on out.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 18, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> Get your scissors out and cut the words of Christ right out of scripture then...
> Mark 9:42-44
> Luke 12:4-6



Mark is talking about entering the Kingdom, not death. It is also a parable. Would it do any good to pluck out only one eye, as if the other were innocent?


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## TimB (Dec 18, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hello Ronnie. The "He11 concept came from Enoch where angels would be punished for their crime. They are eternal, so therefore eternal punishment. This was attached to Christianity in later years, evolving slowly. He11 is improperly used throughout our bible. The mindset we attach to it is not at all the original writer use of the word "gehnena". This was a garbage dump outside the city where the fire never goes out, because they keep adding to it. Compare to our modern day dumps, except we don't burn them. They did. The Lake of Fire is prepared for the demons, which are fallen angels, see 1Enoch. This burn in he11 forever and ever is not from my God. It is manufactured. To the dust does man return, except those who through Jesus, receive eternal life.



It is true that the eternal lake of fire was created for Satan and the fallen angels, but it also became the place for those who reject Christ because man was created with an eternal spirit and will be alive somewhere for eternity. True his earthly body goes back to dust, it's not eternal. His spirit IS. There is no scripture that I've seen that even hints at some other place for "lost" souls other than the lake of fire

  Also you or someone mentioned about God telling Adam he would die. Note though that God told Adam , "In the DAY you eat thereof you shall surely die".  Well it's pretty obvious to all that Adam did not physically die the day he ate the forbidden fruit. But he _did_
 die spiritually. 

Adam died a physical death later on and like all the old testament saints had to wait in paradise in "Abraham's bosom" until Christ died on the cross and came to paradise to preach to the captives there and then set them free. Today paradise is empty. No one who is spiritually dead can enter into God's presence and that's what we all are until we receive Christ and become born again of God's Spirit.  



> I will admit that after years of comparing my belief on this matter to the original intention of the authors, the parable of the "Rich man and Lazarus" LK 16:19, is problematic for me. But since it is a parable, I can continue to go with context. Back to my original point. Paul never showed any signs of believing in eternal punishment.



You _should_ be  concerned because the _story_ of the rich man and Lazarus is NOT a parable, it is Jesus relating and actual story. How do I know this? Because in parables Jesus never used proper names. He always used "A certain man went ..........thus and so", or "There was a certain man". 

 In the parable of the sower  Jesus said, "A sower went out to sow his seed;"  Notice no proper name was used. 

 In the parable of the unjust judge, Jesus said,  "In a certain city there was a judge who neither feared God nor regarded man; "


 I could go on and on but you get the idea, and anyway notice in the story of the rich man and Lazarus neither the rich man nor Lazarus was a fallen angel or Satan. And notice that immediately after death the rich man was in heII   in "fire" begging for just a touch of a damp finger on his tongue. Notice there was full consciousness after death for the lost. The rich man's body was buried (Lk 16:22) but he himself was in torment.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 18, 2011)

Tim, great post. I agree.

We might not know exactly, but we ain't gonna go 'there', wherever 'there' is.

When the rapture comes, the Holy Spirit is removed from the earth and there is nothing but the unsaved left....I wouldn't even want to be left behind, besides the lake of fire.
I have been ripped off/robbed/abused etc etc and I do not want to be left with the 'i'm a pretty good person' to the worst of the worst peeps who are excluded from rapture.


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## TimB (Dec 18, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Tim, great post. I agree.
> 
> We might not know exactly, but we ain't gonna go 'there', wherever 'there' is.
> 
> ...



Thanks mtnwoman and I hope you don't mind and this is not to disagree with you per se but I don't see how the Holy Spirit can be removed from the earth at the time of the rapture because we learn in Revelation that many thousands of people are saved during the time of the tribulation and we know that no one can be saved unless he is drawn by the Spirit of God. So I think there must be some other explanation. 



> Rev 7:13	 	And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
> 
> Rev 7:14	 	And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, *These are they which came out of great tribulation,* and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.




Maybe you're referring to this;



> 2Th 2:7	 	For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only *he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.*




I believe this actually refers to the Church being taken out of the way via the rapture and the Holy Spirit will still be here working to save as many as possible. 

And we know that the two witnesses will come  and prophesy during the tribulation (Rev 11) and are killed eventually and brought back to life by the Spirit of God. 



> Rev 11:11	¶	And after three days and an half the *Spirit of life from God* entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.





> Rom 8:11	 	But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.




I clearly see the work of the Holy Spirit during the tribulation period AFTER the rapture of the church.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 19, 2011)

Matthew 25:    41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;..........................

I love and enjoy a good biblical discussion.


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## formula1 (Dec 19, 2011)

*Re:*

How can there be eternal life (John 3:16) if there is not also eternal death? 

For what purpose did Christ die, if He did not save us from eternal separation from Him? 

If eternal punishment doesn't exist, then there is no need for grace, no need for salvation, no need for a Savior, no need for Christ to suffer and die, and no need to rise again.  We could never be lost!

But we are and we need Him and He came and gave Himself for us at God's request.  He sits at the right hand of the Father ever making intersession for us, that we might not be led astray by every wind of doctrine and cunning and the craftiness of men.

Oh, Lord Jesus, how much we need You to to save us from our sin!  Help us all to do your will.

Peer into the future and take heed.  Better be sure Jesus knows who you are:

Matthew 7
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 19, 2011)

formula1 said:


> How can there be eternal life (John 3:16) if there is not also eternal death?
> 
> For what purpose did Christ die, if He did not save us from eternal separation from Him?
> 
> ...



Sure we need a savior, grace, etc. To be saved from the grave. But not eternal punishment


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## gordon 2 (Dec 19, 2011)

formula1 said:


> How can there be eternal life (John 3:16) if there is not also eternal death?
> 
> For what purpose did Christ die, if He did not save us from eternal separation from Him?
> 
> ...



This is what I believe. Christ died so that for his ministry and sacrefice we can live full spiritual lives with God. This God is the God you and I know. Eternal life is this life with God which is bombarded by the Holy Spirit which is available to all who chose first Jesus and then God which Jesus called Father. This eternal life is the Kingdom of God. It is active now in us and independent of us.

Now because as christians we have eternal lives now, does not mean that other non christians don't have lives in the Spirit or simply other lives. ( If you what scripture for this I feebly suggest Mary, Elizabeth and Zachariah and many other prophets who know what it was to be in the Spirit.) I suggest I guess that to be in the Spirit is eternal life. It is the life that God wills us to have.

Also take for example jews or people of other faiths who do not chose the life offered by Jesus. 

Now as for eternal punishment. Simply from the perspective of christianity this means living in a world of sin and its wages. And from the perspective of christianity's grace all who cleave to sin and or ungodliness are cast into eternal punishment.

But wait, God does not say that He has two measure of judgement? As Christians we are judged as rightious for being deciples and friends of Jesus. And this is correct because if we are we are in the Spirit, in the Kingdom of God, in the state of Eternal life.  But if we are not deciples and have like the Jews of old who repudiated Jesus or we play on half our hand in Christ then we are judged by God according to what we call The Law. 

The measure we judge is the measure God judged or will judge us. If we can say God will judge us than perhaps we can say we are at his mercy and are in a state of possible perdition. I personally believe if we see ourselves as filth we are possibly not washed by the blood.


" Take heed! that we might not be led astray by every wind of doctrine and cunning and the craftiness of men." I fear many will advocate this, and yet they will call it from the wind of doctrine, and the cunning and the craftiness of men not knowing any different.

Perhaps there is a simple childish way to explain this better: In the beginning...there was no ending.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 19, 2011)

TimB said:


> Thanks mtnwoman and I hope you don't mind and this is not to disagree with you per se but I don't see how the Holy Spirit can be removed from the earth at the time of the rapture because we learn in Revelation that many thousands of people are saved during the time of the tribulation and we know that no one can be saved unless he is drawn by the Spirit of God. So I think there must be some other explanation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well actually, I thought that the 144,000 were the ones to preach the gospel to the Jews that will likely be hiding in petra. At that time, after the rapture, they will have proof that Jesus was the messiah, since they were temporarily blinded for us to be grafted in. They won't believe before the rapture.

I personally don't believe anyone else is given a 2nd chance. One of my brothers believed that before he passed. He didn't make it to a second chance, but I do believe he was saved, even though he was still struggling with deliverance. I believe he was delivered, I just don't think it had overcome him yet. 
I mean wouldn't the rapture be a significant clue to unbelievers to come to salvation? I'm not sure about when the rapture comes, before, during or after tribulation. My hope and belief is pretrib....but I think we might be in tribulation now, since the world is turning against Christianity.

I don't dwell too much on that because I'm saved, and I'll hear Him call us. Not sure exactly what happens after the rapture, my 'end' in this life will be at the rapture. I've never told anyone they could be saved after the rapture, I don't believe they can, but possibly they will be...I believe many Jews will...like I said. Well I'll take that back, I had a nonpracticing Jew friend and when I tried to talk about Jesus, he said 'I don't want to hear it'. So I told him, well when I poof up out of this flea market store, you better repent.

If this post sounds weird, I'm making candles, and I think I'm trippin' from all the aroma-thurpey...lol


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Dec 19, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Matthew 25:    41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;..........................
> 
> I love and enjoy a good biblical discussion.


 But does that mean that they are destroyed by this fire or do they suffer forever and ever by this fire


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## mtnwoman (Dec 19, 2011)

Our pastor takes a tour once a year to the promised land. He takes quite a few people with him, my youngest brother went once with some assistance from fund raising, I wanna go.

But they take little NT bibles and hide them in the caves under rocks,etc, at petra. They may be convescated (sp?) but they make the effort to hide them for the Jews when they run to petra to hide out during the tribulation, after the rapture.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 19, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> But does that mean that they are destroyed by this fire or do they suffer forever and ever by this fire



I hope they are destroyed by the fire and not suffer eternally.

Once the rapture comes and we are in heaven we will not be sad or even cry for those we love that didn't make it. I guess we just won't even know or remember them. No tears in heaven. Hallelujah!


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 19, 2011)

TimB said:


> It is true that the eternal lake of fire was created for Satan and the fallen angels, but it also became the place for those who reject Christ because man was created with an eternal spirit and will be alive somewhere for eternity. True his earthly body goes back to dust, it's not eternal. His spirit IS. There is no scripture that I've seen that even hints at some other place for "lost" souls other than the lake of fire
> 
> Also you or someone mentioned about God telling Adam he would die. Note though that God told Adam , "In the DAY you eat thereof you shall surely die".  Well it's pretty obvious to all that Adam did not physically die the day he ate the forbidden fruit. But he _did_
> die spiritually.
> ...


 Why do you think man has an eternal spirit? 
 Adam began ageing at the momment of sin. "You will surely die". He would not have "aged" otherwise. So his sentence began
 I admit that your point of not using names sounds like a pattern, but it is not conclusive. He11 is sometimes refered to as "utter darkness" so how does fire not produce light? My point is that we have lots of problematic issues with he11 and the translations, and original intent. So I look for the earliest writings, which are Pauls, and I look for context of what he believes. And he makes no mention of such. I will say that through my studies, I have saw where Ploycarp believed in he11. That is very early compared to many other evolving concepts


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 19, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> I hope they are destroyed by the fire and not suffer eternally.
> 
> Once the rapture comes and we are in heaven we will not be sad or even cry for those we love that didn't make it. I guess we just won't even know or remember them. No tears in heaven. Hallelujah!


 Your sincere compassion for those not saved is noted. May God Bless You


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## Ronnie T (Dec 19, 2011)

I think nothing is more important than what scriptures say.
Than to accept scripture for what it says, in the way it says it, and for the purposes it was intended.

Move away from that principle and it begins to sound like trash-talk.
I don't like it when people play word games with scripture.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 19, 2011)

Rapture discussion, food for thought. Where does the concept of "rapture" come from? Everything in the NT is pictured in the OT. It is the flood. The present days are reserved for fire, Sodom as an example.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 19, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Rapture discussion, food for thought. Where does the concept of "rapture" come from? Everything in the NT is pictured in the OT. It is the flood. The present days are reserved for fire, Sodom as an example.



1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
King James Version (KJV)


 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 

 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 

 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

rap·ture (rpchr)
n.
1. The state of being transported by a lofty emotion; ecstasy.
2. An expression of ecstatic feeling. Often used in the plural.
3. The transporting of a person from one place to another, especially to heaven.
tr.v. rap·tured, rap·tur·ing, rap·tures 
To enrapture.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 19, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Rapture discussion, food for thought. Where does the concept of "rapture" come from? Everything in the NT is pictured in the OT. It is the flood. The present days are reserved for fire, Sodom as an example.



God promised us no more floods.


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## TimB (Dec 19, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Why do you think man has an eternal spirit?



Because there is no foundation in scripture I'm aware of where God ever created any sentient being to die. Lucifer sinned and was thrown out of heaven taking a third of the angels with him. God didn't sentence them to death, he exiled them and they are all still alive today. 

 God created man and put him in a garden with a tree of life that would keep his _body_ alive for eternity to match his spirit. When man sinned God threw him out of the garden and put a sentient at the gate to keep man out . 



> Gen 3:22	¶	And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, *lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:*
> 
> Gen 3:23	 	Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.



Suppose Adam had been allowed to partake of the tree of life _after_ he sinned.  The world had changed, sin had entered in and therefore sickness and disease had also entered in. Can you imagine living forever in a body wracked with cancer, heart disease COPD, rheumatism and and all the pain and sickness that comes with those diseases an you are not able to die? 

 We are told that to be absent from the body (for Christians) is to be present with the Lord. 2 Cor. 5:8 so there again the spirit does not die.

And finally we see the wicked in heII for ever;



> Mat 25:41	"Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:





> Psa 9:17	The wicked shall be turned into heII, [And] all the nations that forget God.







> Adam began ageing at the momment of sin. "You will surely die". He would not have "aged" otherwise. So his sentence began



That's right he did begin aging, because he was not allowed back into the garden to eat of the tree of life. But his death sentence was spiritual and took place immediately. 



> Gen 2:17	But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for *in the day that thou eatest* thereof thou shalt surely die.




Adam did not die physically "the day" he ate the forbidden fruit. He did begin to age and die in his physical body but his spirit was no longer alive to God. That's the only way I know to take that verse because Adam did not drop dead that day and God does not lie so a death of some sort took place. 

 From that moment Adam needed a savior, someone to pay his sin debt before he could be allowed into Heaven. This is what it means to be "born again". We must be born again of the Spirit of God or we will not see the kingdom of heaven because our spirit is dead to God but that does not mean we ever "die" as in become non-existent, unconsious to the goings on around us. 



> I admit that your point of not using names sounds like a pattern, but it is not conclusive. He11 is sometimes refered to as "utter darkness" so how does fire not produce light? My point is that we have lots of problematic issues with he11 and the translations, and original intent. So I look for the earliest writings, which are Pauls, and I look for context of what he believes. And he makes no mention of such. I will say that through my studies, I have saw where Ploycarp believed in he11. That is very early compared to many other evolving concepts



 Well I've never studied Polycarp to any great extent so I can't speak to that but with regard to Paul, he is but one of the Apostles and he himself warned us not to attach ourselves to any single minister   of the gospel;



> 1Cr 1:12	 	Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
> 
> 1Cr 1:13	 	Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?




We must rightly divide the scriptures and take it all in, not just a part. 



> 2Ti 2:15	 	Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 20, 2011)

More food for thought; Paul's use of "caught up". See  Gen 7:17 "as the waters increased they lifted the ark high above the earth". This is a paraphrase, the NIV. Look it up in the original Hebrew, hmmm, very interesting


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 20, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> God promised us no more floods.


Sure, no more floods. The coming destruction is reserved for fire, which, as a result of, will make everything new.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 20, 2011)

Hello Tim, you said: "we see the wicked in hel1". Thrown in he11 and destroyed, irreverseable punishment. The verses you pointed out did not imply eternal suffering. Maybe there are some? I can't recall. The problem is that what's in store for the fallen angels is getting mixed up with the unsaved.


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## Israel (Dec 20, 2011)

I hope none take offense if I say Hitchens was my favorite atheist.
It was just a clever way of me showing  
#1. I am not at all put off by atheists
#2. But also that I appreciated what I believed I saw in Hitchens, that was a seeming struggle and a reluctance to play to the crowd.

He may rightly have had a view of things that seem hidden to some, even those who name the name of Christ. His hatred of "going along with the crowd" for the sake of approval, even the liberal leftist crowd that one would imagine his strongest "base" is not unknown. And so I used to pray for him occasionally.

Then I read of his death last week. But I also read this penned by him:
(found here:
http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2012/01/hitchens-201201)
Before I was diagnosed with esophageal cancer a year and a half ago, I rather jauntily told the readers of my memoirs that when faced with extinction I wanted to be fully conscious and awake, in order to â€œdoâ€� death in the active and not the passive sense. And I do, still, try to nurture that little flame of curiosity and defiance: willing to play out the string to the end and wishing to be spared nothing that properly belongs to a life span. However, one thing that grave illness does is to make you examine familiar principles and seemingly reliable sayings. And thereâ€™s one that I find I am not saying with quite the same conviction as I once used to: In particular, I have slightly stopped issuing the announcement that â€œWhatever doesnâ€™t kill me makes me stronger.â€�

In fact, I now sometimes wonder why I ever thought it profound. It is usually attributed to Friedrich Nietzsche: Was mich nicht umbringt macht mich stärker. In German it reads and sounds more like poetry, which is why it seems probable to me that Nietzsche borrowed it from Goethe, who was writing a century earlier. But does the rhyme suggest a reason? Perhaps it does, or can, in matters of the emotions. I can remember thinking, of testing moments involving love and hate, that I had, so to speak, come out of them ahead, with some strength accrued from the experience that I couldnâ€™t have acquired any other way. And then once or twice, walking away from a car wreck or a close encounter with mayhem while doing foreign reporting, I experienced a rather fatuous feeling of having been toughened by the encounter. But really, thatâ€™s to say no more than â€œThere but for the grace of god go I,â€� which in turn is to say no more than â€œThe grace of god has happily embraced me and skipped that unfortunate other man.â€�

End of quote.

It is not only easy to misconstrue grace from it's outward observation...but impossible not to. 
God knows whether the wisdom that perhaps accelerated him to even question why he ever even found Nietzsche's quote "profound" may have also been found of him to be the very acceleration necessary to attain escape velocity.

I am hoping to be one who does not disdain those hired at the last hour of the day...for I am inclined to believe, we who may tend to think we have labored long, or hard, or thanklessly show it really never has been the Lord we have served, but our own selves.
I only know God knows all things. 

And I, despite my great swelling words of christianese, may just still be in the queue waiting for that man in the pick up truck to come by and tell me there is a little gardening to do before the sun goes down, and would I settle for "all things" as payment?


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## formula1 (Dec 20, 2011)

*Re:*



1gr8bldr said:


> Sure we need a savior, grace, etc. To be saved from the grave. But not eternal punishment



Absolutely false!  The dangers of not trusting the Word of God are apparent to all who have read this!

But I appreciate you being on this website, because many of us are learning to judge the real from the the counterfeit through your words.  It is a healthy thing for us to do.  The last days are upon us!


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## gordon 2 (Dec 20, 2011)

Israel said:


> I hope none take offense if I say Hitchens was my favorite atheist.
> It was just a clever way of me showing
> #1. I am not at all put off by atheists
> #2. But also that I appreciated what I believed I saw in Hitchens, that was a seeming struggle and a reluctance to play to the crowd.
> ...



So "all things" is not what we spin off our mortal coils, but what we are called to add to it. Much of our christianity is for dying every day and walking away from wrecks... and "all things". This is not unlike being an athiest as is pointed out.

Why do I picture Jesus walking into wrecks?


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## gordon 2 (Dec 20, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> I think nothing is more important than what scriptures say.
> Than to accept scripture for what it says, in the way it says it, and for the purposes it was intended.
> 
> Move away from that principle and it begins to sound like trash-talk.
> I don't like it when people play word games with scripture.



Where did this come from?


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## Israel (Dec 20, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> So "all things" is not what we spin off our mortal coils, but what we are called to add to it. Much of our christianity is for dying every day and walking away from wrecks... and "all things". This is not unlike being an athiest as is pointed out.
> 
> Why do I picture Jesus walking into wrecks?





 amen...

(and I think Hitchens was saying he had been in many auto wrecks...and, when he had...walking away from them left him feeling he had in some way profited or been "built up" by surviving the experience. I don't think he meant he walked away from the wrecks of others)


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## The Foreigner (Dec 20, 2011)

pnome said:


> Tell me again how one discerns which parts of the Bible are metaphor and which are to be read literally.



Very easily actually.  A little study in biblical genre will work wonders for understanding what is symbolic and what is literal, what is poetry etc etc.

And yes, if you want a straight answer, as far as man can tell, and according to Christopher Hitchens' own profession, he is now in eternal torment. The Bible is pretty clear on that. If you don't like that... so be it.

I'm not surprised you don't understand the passage you read - Scripture tells us you are not inclined to understand it and will refuse to hear it even when explained to you. But we are obliged to state what God has stated, whether you, Hitchens or anyone else likes it or not.

Here are some thoughts (of mine actually) from another site about Hitchens passing: I hope they illuminate you. 
http://www.reformation21.org/blog/2011/12/christopher-hitchens-19492011.php

Peace.


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## StriperAddict (Dec 20, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Why do I picture Jesus walking into wrecks?


 
Profound. Absolutely profound.


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## formula1 (Dec 20, 2011)

*Re:*



gordon 2 said:


> Why do I picture Jesus walking into wrecks?



That's just what Jesus does!  I need only look in the mirror and see it for myself. A great comment BTW!


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## Israel (Dec 20, 2011)

At the very least, all of Hitchen's life of denial could have been easily undone at at any moment by God's grace. So, unless one was there, not only up to and including his last breath, but additionally had a pair of God goggles on to look into his heart, no one knows where Hitchens will appear. 

It matters not a whit with how many previous breaths Hitchens may have denied Jesus...for grace is like that...it can undo a lifetime of disobedience in a heartbeat.

If Jesus can rightly say to someone who imagines their many confessions, miracles, and wonders have earned them entrance "Depart from me I never knew you, ye workers of iniquity" 

Perhaps he might also say to one who never did anything at all except breathe a final breath in hope..."Welcome brother".
Seems as there may be "fake" christians, who knows...there may even be fake atheists. 
God has always enjoyed the change up...not to confuse us, just to remind us walking is not a formula.

We are partakers, _*not the guardians*_, of salvation.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 20, 2011)

formula1 said:


> Absolutely false!  The dangers of not trusting the Word of God are apparent to all who have read this!
> 
> But I appreciate you being on this website, because many of us are learning to judge the real from the the counterfeit through your words.  It is a healthy thing for us to do.  The last days are upon us!



But I do get your attention, and you may sometime consider whether I may be right. Think about the power in tradition. People fight for it, many who have not even read the bible would fight against my views. What we have to search for is the truth. Set aside our traditions and search for the writers original intent, without any modern day assumptions. Take angels for example. We should get our visual picture from the bible, should we not? Yet modern day times have created a false image in our minds. There are no women angels in the bible and no wings. This is incorrect. A modern day traditional thinking. Blame it on Hollywood. The bible does speak of them flying, but when Jesus ascended, did he have wings? My point is that what the world defines as he11 today was a trash dump. [gehena] It is not a place of eternal punishment. The original readers of the NT knew exactly what this meant, they understood this because no such false image had been planted in their minds. Are we to ignore this?


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## formula1 (Dec 20, 2011)

*Re:*



1gr8bldr said:


> Are we to ignore this?



I ignore this because of the overwhelming scriptural authority to the contrary, not because of tradition. And I don't look for the writers original intent persay, thought that can be a good starting point.  The writer is God and His intent can only be discerned by the Spirit, which He has given to believers. I'll believe the scriptures!  I'll believe Jesus!  For God so loved...that he gave His Son...that whoever believes will not perish but have eternal life(John 3:16 Partial). An offer of eternal life over perishing has the obvious implication that eternal death also exists.  That should not be so hard for you to see.

But like I said, I appreciate your opposing point of view.   We need to be sure of our beliefs and it helps me to solidify them!


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 21, 2011)

formula1 said:


> I ignore this because of the overwhelming scriptural authority to the contrary, not because of tradition. And I don't look for the writers original intent persay, thought that can be a good starting point.  The writer is God and His intent can only be discerned by the Spirit, which He has given to believers. I'll believe the scriptures!  I'll believe Jesus!  For God so loved...that he gave His Son...that whoever believes will not perish but have eternal life(John 3:16 Partial). An offer of eternal life over perishing has the obvious implication that eternal death also exists.  That should not be so hard for you to see.
> 
> But like I said, I appreciate your opposing point of view.   We need to be sure of our beliefs and it helps me to solidify them!



I do see "eternal death" but I see that as "no resurection", not eternal punishment, agonizing pain, forever and ever. And I understand your point of "solidifying". It forces us to think things through


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## StriperAddict (Dec 21, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> I do see "eternal death" but I see that as "no resurection", not eternal punishment, agonizing pain, forever and ever.


 
Non existance then? 

Not according to Dan 12:2; note the word "everlasting".


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 21, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> Non existance then?
> 
> Not according to Dan 12:2; note the word "everlasting".



My NIV says "everlasting contempt" not everlasting punishment. I see this as irreversable. The bible talks about forgiveness, reconcilation. The point here is that at this point, there is no longer offered a savior


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## rjcruiser (Dec 21, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> This will not be popular; Since we don't have "Q" the "fifth gospel" from which Matthew and Luke copied from, we can't assume this writer as inspired.



I'd say my original post (which I've quoted below) was spot on.  



rjcruiser said:


> :nono:
> 
> All this from someone who doesn't believe in the Bible....I guess that is how you come up with some of this stuff.





Ronnie T said:


> I think nothing is more important than what scriptures say.
> Than to accept scripture for what it says, in the way it says it, and for the purposes it was intended.



Yup...gotta agree with you on this.



1gr8bldr said:


> Take angels for example. We should get our visual picture from the bible, should we not? Yet modern day times have created a false image in our minds. There are no women angels in the bible and no wings. This is incorrect.



Not so.  Angels have wings.  Look at the Seraphim in Isaiah 6:2.  Or....is that not in your "bible."



1gr8bldr said:


> My NIV says "everlasting contempt" not everlasting punishment. I see this as irreversable. The bible talks about forgiveness, reconcilation. The point here is that at this point, there is no longer offered a savior



You really do yourself a disservice by relying upon the NIV translation.

That contempt is more of an abhorrence...or loathing/abomination.  Also, the verse is giving two options....look at it...one to everlasting life, the other to the opposite....or everlasting abomination.


Really, your belief system is contrived based upon your own interpretation, your own ideas of what scripture is correct and what scripture is false.  Like I've said in the past, your follow your own religion.  Very convenient...I'm sure, but it is not the true Gospel based upon the Word of God that is inspired by Him.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 21, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> I'd say my original post (which I've quoted below) was spot on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



LOL, angels and Seraphim are not the same. Here's a verse for you. I think they would notice the wings. Heb 13:2 "Do not forget to entertain strangers for by doing some have entertained angels without knowing it."


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 21, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> I'd say my original post (which I've quoted below) was spot on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My NIV has it's share of unintentional biased mistakes. Your KJ has outright irresponsible additions. 1 John 5:7 was clearly a later addition. Same with 1 Tim 3:16. We know this as a fact.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 21, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> I'd say my original post (which I've quoted below) was spot on.
> 
> 
> Yup...gotta agree with you on this.
> ...



This in reference to my "Gospel Q". I don't expect you to know this, but the evidence that Matthew and Luke copied Mark is surprising. If they copied Mark, then it seems reasonable to think that the structure and stories being the same in Matthew and Luke comes from the same source. Here is just one example of many of what is called "edititoral fatigue" Mark 6:17-28/Matt 14:5 While copying Marks account, he got careless and said that Herod wanted to kill John. But notice in vs 9 where he reverts back to Marks story. This is not just an error. It is proof of much more. There is much like this. This is why I don't blindly believe the traditional way.


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## rjcruiser (Dec 21, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> LOL, angels and Seraphim are not the same. Here's a verse for you. I think they would notice the wings. Heb 13:2 "Do not forget to entertain strangers for by doing some have entertained angels without knowing it."



um..okay.  I'll disagree with you and your definition of Angels.



1gr8bldr said:


> My NIV has it's share of unintentional biased mistakes. Your KJ has outright irresponsible additions. 1 John 5:7 was clearly a later addition. Same with 1 Tim 3:16. We know this as a fact.



Who said I use the KJV?  Go back and read some of the threads.



1gr8bldr said:


> This in reference to my "Gospel Q". I don't expect you to know this, but the evidence that Matthew and Luke copied Mark is surprising. If they copied Mark, then it seems reasonable to think that the structure and stories being the same in Matthew and Luke comes from the same source. Here is just one example of many of what is called "edititoral fatigue" Mark 6:17-28/Matt 14:5 While copying Marks account, he got careless and said that Herod wanted to kill John. But notice in vs 9 where he reverts back to Marks story. This is not just an error. It is proof of much more. There is much like this. This is why I don't blindly believe the traditional way.



Right.  4 guys who were all traveling with Jesus and all saw the same things happen are going to have totally different stories.

And...no, I don't blindly believe the traditional way.  But I will believe the Bible and defend its inerrancy to the end.  If you can't rely upon the Bible, you have nothing but a man-made gospel.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 22, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> um..okay.  I'll disagree with you and your definition of Angels.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry, I was thinking that you were KJ only. Don't know how I got that wrong.


----------



## mtnwoman (Dec 22, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Right.  4 guys who were all traveling with Jesus and all saw the same things happen are going to have totally different stories. *I can ask my four girls the same thing, all being at the same event at the same time and get totatlly 4 different stories. I can't imagine any of them giving word for word the same account.
> 
> *If you can't rely upon the Bible, you have nothing but a man-made gospel.*You mean like the 'gospel of Paul' that much 'gospel doctrine' is based on?*



Peace


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## mtnwoman (Dec 22, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Who said I use the KJV?  Go back and read some of the threads.



Oh well, that's the problemo...



You know I'm kiddin'....

I use KJV because I was raised 200 yrs 
on it and  I've got many of the verses in my head and heart. My daughter uses several versions.


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## gtparts (Dec 23, 2011)

Back to Hitchens, while it would be edifying to know that he is RIP, because he was saved in the brief period before his death, I can say with a high degree of personal confidence, if he was not saved, he is not resting..... peacefully or otherwise.


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## redwards (Dec 23, 2011)

pnome said:


> Heard the news this morning that Hitch is dead.
> 
> http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2011/12/In-Memoriam-Christopher-Hitchens-19492011
> 
> ...





pnome said:


> So, he's just starting his eternal torture for his crime of not believing that Jesus was divine?



Joe,
My exposure to Hitchens has been limited to his book, _god is not Great_.
I received the book as a gift from someone who, although I have never personally met, asked me to read it.
In exchange, that individual would read the book entitled, _I Don't Have Enough FAITH to Be an ATHEIST_.

As I read the book, there was one particular paragraph that really stood out to me.
It is:



> The ultimate degeneration of all this into a mere bargain was
> made unpleasantly obvious by Blaise Pascal, whose theology is not
> far short of sordid. His celebrated "wager" puts it in hucksterish form:
> what have you got to lose? If you believe in god and there is a god,
> ...


In Mr. Hitchens' own words (as stated in his book, and emphasized in red), I believe he has now been afforded the opportunity to state his case to God. As to where he is, and what he is now doing, in my heart I believe God, Jesus and Mr. Hitchens know exactly where he is and what he is doing.

On an occasion where a member of this board had lost a loved one and had stated a request for prayer during his and his family's time of loss, I received a message from another member, something to this effect (I apologize for not having saved the message so it could quoted exactly): _I wish I could offer hope for this member as you who are Christians can, but I cannot._

I have prayed, and continue to pray, this individual will someday soon accept the mercy and grace God has to offer through the shedding of the precious blood of Jesus Christ. It is a free gift, it must only be accepted.
That is a prayer I also made for Mr. Hitchens as I was reading his book.
Whether God ever honored that prayer or not, I do not know.

May God bless you Joe, and I wish you and your family a very Merry Christmas!
Ralph


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 22, 2012)

Bump for JB see post 27 and 41. Many other times but my history does not contain it


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## JB0704 (Apr 22, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> Bump for JB see post 27 and 41. Many other times but my history does not contain it



Thanks!


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 22, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Thanks!



Also 52,55,58,67 and 77. Just a little of my views and others opinions


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