# Faith/Atheism



## PWalls (Jul 30, 2008)

In AM1's post about primitive villages that he deleted (his right by the way), I posted in response to Pnome that it took a lot of faith to be an Atheist.

He responded with "Atheism is the antithesis of faith. What it takes is courage. Courage to accept a hard truth over a comforting lie."

Farmasis responded with "Can you tell me a hard truth concerning atheism?"

BigTexun responded with "It also takes courage to slowly and deliberately drive a 16 penny nail through your kneecap with a small tack hammer. Makes more sense also... you'll eventually recover from the nail injury. I think you are confusing courage with pride. Two words that are similar but, not interchangeable. I wish I could say, "I hope you are right". I can't. I know you are wrong."

Kinda cool that us mods can see deleted posts, ain't it. 

Anyway, I thought a thread about some aspects of Athiesm might be good so I pulled those quotes out of the other thread to kick one off.


I'll start.

Pnome, what I meant by faith to believe in Atheism, is the sheer faith you must have to look around you and believe that everything you see is just purely happenstance and chance. That billions of years ago some little something just happened by accident and all of this is a result of it. I think there is proof out there that if any little thing was to go wrong this Earth would die real quick. To me, creation itself points to a Creator. To believe otherwise takes faith. To believe in Atheism takes faith in something even more unbelievable than a Creator. It takes faith in pure chance and randomness. To me that would be scary.


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## redwards (Jul 30, 2008)

PWalls said:


> .....
> Pnome, what I meant by faith to believe in Atheism, is the sheer faith you must have to look around you and believe that everything you see is just purely happenstance and chance. That billions of years ago some little something just happened by accident and all of this is a result of it. I think there is proof out there that if any little thing was to go wrong this Earth would die real quick. To me, creation itself points to a Creator. To believe otherwise takes faith. To believe in Atheism takes faith in something even more unbelievable than a Creator. It takes faith in pure chance and randomness. To me that would be scary.


PWalls,
I have to agree 100% with you.
I bought this book
http://www.amazon.ca/Dont-Have-Enough-Faith-Atheist/dp/1581345615
while visiting the Billy Graham Center Museum in Charlotte recently. It is one of the best books I have ever read.


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## pnome (Jul 30, 2008)

It seems to me that it is the hight of hubris to think that we are special in this creation.  That whatever force or power created this vast universe, it thought to create humans _in his image_.  On an insignificant planet, in an outward arm of a middling galaxy.  That it would care about our cares. That it can listen to and respond to our thoughts.  

More likely we are happenstance.  Our time here is brief.

And that's all I've got to say about that....


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## StriperAddict (Jul 30, 2008)

redwards said:


> PWalls,
> I have to agree 100% with you.
> I bought this book
> http://www.amazon.ca/Dont-Have-Enough-Faith-Atheist/dp/1581345615
> while visiting the Billy Graham Center Museum in Charlotte recently. It is one of the best books I have ever read.


 
After reading many spiritual posts on Woodys, apologetics is a subject I've checked out more than ever before.  I'll have to read that book!


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## PWalls (Jul 30, 2008)

pnome said:


> It seems to me that it is the hight of hubris to think that we are special in this creation.  That whatever force or power created this vast universe, it thought to create humans _in his image_.  On an insignificant planet, in an outward arm of a middling galaxy.  That it would care about our cares. That it can listen to and respond to our thoughts.
> 
> More likely we are happenstance.  Our time here is brief.
> 
> And that's all I've got to say about that....



You can honestly look at Creation, look at man, look at the myriad of complex systems that surround us every day and still think that it is all there and working because of happenstance? You do not see any "design" anywhere in all of that?

I did not start this thread to beat you up and I will delete it if it starts in that direction. I am just genuinely curious.


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## pnome (Jul 30, 2008)

PWalls said:


> You can honestly look at Creation, look at man, look at the myriad of complex systems that surround us every day and still think that it is all there and working because of happenstance? You do not see any "design" anywhere in all of that?
> 
> I did not start this thread to beat you up and I will delete it if it starts in that direction. I am just genuinely curious.



Vast gulfs of time and forces we may never understand are at work here.   To say that we understand it is arrogant. To narrow it down to one religion, one book?  How can you accept that as the whole story?


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## Dogmusher (Jul 30, 2008)

pnome said:


> It seems to me that it is the hight of hubris to think that we are special in this creation.  That whatever force or power created this vast universe, it thought to create humans _in his image_.  On an insignificant planet, in an outward arm of a middling galaxy.  That it would care about our cares. That it can listen to and respond to our thoughts.
> 
> More likely we are happenstance.  Our time here is brief.
> 
> And that's all I've got to say about that....



Perhaps........... unless it's true.  If, say, the Creator came to us, as one of us, to demonstrate how special we are.  And, let's say  three days after He was publicly murdered, He showed up for Breakfast and said He loved us more than all the rest of creation, then your argument might be way wrong.  

Pnome, I just think it would be worth your while to start a new investigation, beginning with Jesus and working out to the universe rather than the other way round.  What have you got to lose?


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## jmharris23 (Jul 30, 2008)

Dogmusher said:


> Perhaps........... unless it's true.  If, say, the Creator came to us, as one of us, to demonstrate how special we are.  And, let's say  three days after He was publicly murdered, He showed up for Breakfast and said He loved us more than all the rest of creation, then your argument might be way wrong.
> 
> Pnome, I just think it would be worth your while to start a new investigation, beginning with Jesus and working out to the universe rather than the other way round.  What have you got to lose?




Now thats a good question!


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## PJason (Jul 30, 2008)

One of my former bosses was a very devout atheist, I fact back in the early days of the net he had one of the first ever atheist boards or forums. The funny thing was they would always talk about how they would go to all these Christian boards and really go at it with the Christians, but I never knew of any Christians going to the this atheist board. I have noticed the same thing over the years. A lot of atheist like to join Christian message boards why? I think maybe they are looking for an answer, maybe they are trying to find a reason to believe.

The greatest proof an atheist can ever show you is non-belief.

While the greatest proof a Christian can ever show you is belief.


This is not to say that we do not want you here Pnome or any of our other atheist friends.


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## Big Texun (Jul 30, 2008)

PJason said:


> One of my former bosses was a very devout atheist, I fact back in the early days of the net he had one of the first ever atheist boards or forums. The funny thing was they would always talk about how they would go to all these Christian boards and really go at it with the Christians, but I never knew of any Christians going to the this atheist board. I have noticed the same thing over the years. A lot of atheist like to join Christian message boards why?



I've developed some personal opinions & theories... Pnome, I'll forewarn you; you will likely be flattered by what I am about to say.

Like PJason, I've worked with a few devout atheists. In every case, they were stunningly brilliant people. Pnome & friends, I strongly suspect, are _*much*_ sharper than the average cookie.


It has oft been said that too much of a strength can become a weakness. In my experience, brilliant people - atheists and Christians alike - have a tendency to develop a high level of confidence in their ability to grasp and understand challenging issues, solve problems, and generally "get it" faster and more accurately than their "less intellectually gifted" peers. In school, IF they chose to participate, they were the ones that finished the tests first AND got the highest scores. In short, they are not accustomed to addressing problems that they cannot solve.

In most aspects of life, these problem solving gifts serve them very very well. The problem with religion is, rational thinking and high powered logic hit the wall when the contemplated problem truly has no logical solution. Some problems, questions if you will, simply cannot be answered with the data that we have. (example: What caused the universe and the galaxies?)

Lets be honest - From a logic-alone perspective, Pnome is right. Logically, it just does not make sense that an all powerful God, a God that created the universe, would take a special interest in what I, one man out of millions, was doing at 10:00 am this morning. Christians know that God doesn't use logic that is remotely like ours. We know this because, at some point in our lives, for whatever reason, we've placed our faith in Him, and He has removed the scales from our eyes so we can see clearly. The brilliant atheist continues to lean on his own understanding - again, his understanding is his most prized strength.

Why do atheists frequent Christian boards? I think there are probably two reasons:

1. They love to debate... and lets face it, its pretty easy for an atheist to start a spirited debate on a Christian board. Because of their intellectual prowess, they are great at these debates...  and, whether one is a Christian or an atheist, it is fun to win. For lack of a better word, I think it is a game to them... a game in which we are their toys.

2. Deep down, perhaps at a completely subconscious level,  I'm confident that at least some atheists have a little nagging self doubt. "What if I'm wrong?" We know that God "hard wires" humans to believe in the concept of God. Otherwise, "natives" in jungles who have never been exposed to any one or any thing outside the jungle, wouldn't be discovered and found worshipping rocks or coconuts or whatever. Perhaps that "nagging" brings some to the table.

Mostly I think, it is a fun game for them.

Pnome, am I right?

Big Tex

PS: If I am right, I take no offense whatsoever. I'm very glad you are here. My sincere hope is that some day you will find the same thing that I found. There was a time when God didn't make any sense to me either.


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## Big Texun (Jul 30, 2008)

PJason said:


> I never knew of any Christians going to the this atheist board.



Try it sometime. You'll likely find some very sharp people on those atheist boards that will rip you to shreds in 3.1 nano-seconds. Betcha don't go back again. 

Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding... Wonderful scripture... but not an easy pill to swallow when your own understanding is your greatest source of strength, your greatest personal gift, and, when it comes to religion, your biggest weakness.


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## pnome (Jul 31, 2008)

Big Texun said:


> Why do atheists frequent Christian boards?



I'm actually here for the hunting information.  I just can't resist this board.  I see a post like yours saying "Their gods aren't real" and it's like a big pile of corn and I'm a button buck.


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## 2tines (Jul 31, 2008)

pnome said:


> I'm actually here for the hunting information.  I just can't resist this board.  I see a post like yours saying "Their gods aren't real" and it's like a big pile of corn and I'm a button buck.


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## PJason (Jul 31, 2008)

pnome said:


> I'm actually here for the hunting information.  I just can't resist this board.  I see a post like yours saying "Their gods aren't real" and it's like a big pile of corn and I'm a button buck.



Sounds like someone is looking to get fed.


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## Big Texun (Jul 31, 2008)

pnome said:


> I'm actually here for the hunting information.  I just can't resist this board.  I see a post like yours saying "Their gods aren't real" and it's like a big pile of corn and I'm a button buck.



Your illustration clearly demonstrates that I have accurately portrayed your motives. You are the comedian and I am the dolt that is made to be your laughingstock. You enjoy your role... I take great joy in mine as well. Let the games continue!

You see, I keep happily spreading the corn on that rocky ground... hoping that someday, one of those seeds will take root. If it doesn't, I've still done my job. I am not responsible for growing corn, I am only responsible for spreading seeds. If the button bucks come and devour it before it takes root, and have no forage during the impending brutal winter that I know is coming, I can go to my nice warm mansion and still hear the words, "Job well done." My conscience is clear, I did my best.

Rock On my dear quick witted brother. Maybe someday, when you least expect it, one of those seeds will take root in you. When it does, if it does, if you are lucky enough for it to, you'll find yourself happily sitting in the front row of some other brilliant comedian's performance... trying to save him from himself... and joyfully serving yourself up as the budt of his jokes.

Gotta go to work now,
Big Tex


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## 60Grit (Jul 31, 2008)

pnome said:


> Vast gulfs of time and forces we may never understand are at work here. To say that we understand it is arrogant.


 
This is an admission and a dismissal.

You admit that there are great forces at work in an intricate plan. You dismiss our faith as arrogance in that we think we understand this plan.

I don't know of anyone that will admit to having a clue what God's plan is, but that does not deter the faith of standing in awe of his mercy and grace, and awesome power as the creator, does it??

No arrogance here, mainly child like ignorance, curiosity, admiration and devotion to a father figure.


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## pnome (Jul 31, 2008)

Big Texun said:


> Your illustration clearly demonstrates that I have accurately portrayed your motives. You are the comedian and I am the dolt that is made to be your laughingstock. You enjoy your role... I take great joy in mine as well. Let the games continue!
> 
> You see, I keep happily spreading the corn on that rocky ground... hoping that someday, one of those seeds will take root. If it doesn't, I've still done my job. I am not responsible for growing corn, I am only responsible for spreading seeds. If the button bucks come and devour it before it takes root, and have no forage during the impending brutal winter that I know is coming, I can go to my nice warm mansion and still hear the words, "Job well done." My conscience is clear, I did my best.
> 
> ...




My comment was meant to be lighthearted but I don't think you're a dolt.  Your post touched a nerve and I had to respond.   I often feel the need to speak up when I read something I disagree with.   I'm this guy:


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## pnome (Jul 31, 2008)

60Grit said:


> You admit that there are great forces at work in an intricate plan.




I never said anything about a plan.


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## Sterlo58 (Jul 31, 2008)

*Not an atheist*

I was raised in a devout Christian home. Let's first get one thing clear, I am not an atheist, however, I will admit to being skeptical regarding things like:

Adam and Eve - Why are we not genetically all messed up if we are all descendants of the same two parents?

Noahs Ark - The fact that one man could gather two of every species in the world on to one boat is hard to grasp at best.

Evolution - Seems to be some pretty hard scientific evidence supporting it.

Just a few examples. Not trying to debate the existence of God, just sharing a few of the many things that raise questions in my mind regarding the accuracy of the Bible. 

Thanks for letting me share this.


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## Dogmusher (Jul 31, 2008)

pnome said:


>



That's Fantastic!


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## 60Grit (Jul 31, 2008)

pnome said:


> I never said anything about a plan.


 
Hey Pnome.

What time is it???


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## pnome (Jul 31, 2008)

60Grit said:


> Hey Pnome.
> 
> What time is it???



8:25 AM


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## 60Grit (Jul 31, 2008)

pnome said:


> 8:25 AM


 
And you are certain of this how???


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## pnome (Jul 31, 2008)

60Grit said:


> And you are certain of this how???



That's what my clock says.  What are you getting at?


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## Spotlite (Jul 31, 2008)

Sterlo58 said:


> I was raised in a devout Christian home. Let's first get one thing clear, I am not an atheist, however, I will admit to being skeptical regarding things like:
> 
> Adam and Eve - Why are we not genetically all messed up if we are all descendants of the same two parents?
> 
> ...



The whole Christian aspect is based around Faith, you cant have "Faith" and "Doubt" at the same time. If your doubting the accuracy of the Bible, you will never have Faith to believe in it.


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## 60Grit (Jul 31, 2008)

pnome said:


> That's what my clock says. What are you getting at?


 
Who made your clock??


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## Jim Thompson (Jul 31, 2008)

60Grit said:


> Who made your clock??



chinese of course


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## 60Grit (Jul 31, 2008)

Jim Thompson said:


> chinese of course


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## pnome (Jul 31, 2008)

60Grit said:


> Who made your clock??



Microsoft.  I'm looking at the little clock on my computer screen.  The screen is Chinese though.


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## Big Texun (Jul 31, 2008)

pnome said:


> My comment was meant to be lighthearted but I don't think you're a dolt.  Your post touched a nerve and I had to respond.   I often feel the need to speak up when I read something I disagree with.   I'm this guy:



Ironically and profoundly, I'm the guy in the picture also. 

On my ride up to work this morning, another thought occurred to me, one relating to the question of, "Why do Atheists frequent Christian boards?"

You say that atheism requires great courage. I say that even the most heroic soldiers sometimes get scared. While you will never admit it, you do have that occasional worry that nags at you - "What if I'm wrong?" Tell me you don't all you want... I know you do. I've walked in your shoes. 

I noticed that immediately after you responded with your "button buck eating a pile of corn" analogy, 2tines jumped in with a double-shot of laughing faces. That, my dear brother, is another real payoff. 

Let me be clearer. One atheist on a Christian board can have a lot of fun playing with the Christian dolts. Two or more atheists on a Christian board can do that and more. While they are having fun with the dolts, they can unknowingly salve each other's doubts. To wit: "Old 2tines thinks I'm right. He's clearly a very smart guy. I must be right." A confidence reinforcer, if you will.

Please know that I am not attacking you... Instead, I am truly trying to help you.  Nonetheless, I realize, even as I type these words, that you will likely attack me in response. 

I, on the other hand, probably make you more than a little nervous. I am not a dolt and I DO believe in God, the bible, the WHOLE BALL of WAX.

Tex


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## Sterlo58 (Jul 31, 2008)

Spotlite said:


> The whole Christian aspect is based around Faith, you cant have "Faith" and "Doubt" at the same time. If your doubting the accuracy of the Bible, you will never have Faith to believe in it.



So you are saying no true Christian can ever have doubts  or questions. Just complete blind faith


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## pnome (Jul 31, 2008)

Big Texun said:


> Ironically and profoundly, I'm the guy in the picture also.
> 
> On my ride up to work this morning, another thought occurred to me, one relating to the question of, "Why do Atheists frequent Christian boards?"
> 
> ...




I think you have 2tines wrong.  I don't want to speak for him but, that  from him represents his only post in this particular forum. I think he just found the analogy funny. 

Honestly, no games here, I just think you're wrong and I'm saying so.


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## Big Texun (Jul 31, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> I see that on here with "Christians" too, it is not exclusively limited to the atheists.



Very true Dawg... and sadder words have rarely been spoken. "Christians" who are doing that, provide even more salve to the subtle, nagging doubts of the true atheists.  If these "Christian comedians" are really Christians, someday they'll be called to account for their behavior.

Something that you might want to think about.

Big Tex


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## Big Texun (Jul 31, 2008)

pnome said:


> I think you have 2tines wrong.  I don't want to speak for him but, that  from him represents his only post in this particular forum. I think he just found the analogy funny.
> 
> Honestly, no games here, I just think you're wrong and I'm saying so.



So, you are saying that 2tines is a DOLT? 

Better watch yourself... I hear that he's a big ol' boy!

Tex


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## Big Texun (Jul 31, 2008)

dawg2 said:


>



Did I hit a nerve?
Tex


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## pnome (Jul 31, 2008)

Big Texun said:


> So, you are saying that 2tines is a DOLT?




I'm saying no such thing.  I don't know 2tines at all.


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## Inatree (Jul 31, 2008)

When did atheism become a belief system ?
A "TRUE" atheist would never waste their time engaging in a debate about creation/evolution or be able to muster enough interest to study religious text or consistently read the ramblings of those that they consider delusional.
Any "atheist" who takes the time to engage in religious debate is perfectly proving the point that the original poster made that some "atheist" have turned atheism into a faith based anti-christianity religion, thats assuming that they do not devide the're debate time equally with Christians, Muslims, Buddists, Hindus Scienologists.....
By  defintion an atheist has no message to propogate and is without an agenda in a religious discussion or a position in a debate.
Therefore any "atheist" engageing in any of these activities is not an atheist but a teacher with a message to propogate.
As Christians how many of you have taken the time to debate scientology ? More than likely you listened to their beliefs with your mouth open wondering how anyone could possibly fall for that.

Im not trying to offend anyone, Im just talking to the brothers.


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## Big Texun (Jul 31, 2008)

pnome said:


> Honestly, no games here, I just think you're wrong and I'm saying so.



After you proudly announced yourself to be a courageous atheist, saying you think I'm wrong comes as a stunning surprise. 

At least you didn't proclaim that you never have doubts. Will you step across _that_ line? 

Tex


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## pnome (Jul 31, 2008)

Inatree said:


> By  defintion an atheist has no message to propogate and is without an agenda in a religious discussion or a position in a debate.




I respectfully disagree.   

When the ladies and gentlemen of this forum get to debating minor points of Christian doctrine, you're right, I have no position.  Or rather my position is obvious and I have no point to make.

In a debate about which gods are "real" and which one's are "false" I have a position to take and defend.


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## ambush80 (Jul 31, 2008)

Sterlo58 said:


> I was raised in a devout Christian home. Let's first get one thing clear, I am not an atheist, however, I will admit to being skeptical regarding things like:
> 
> Adam and Eve - Why are we not genetically all messed up if we are all descendants of the same two parents?
> 
> ...





Sterlo58 said:


> So you are saying no true Christian can ever have doubts  or questions. Just complete blind faith



I think yes and no.  Evolution isn't completely irreconcilable with Christianity.  You have to do some funny tweaking with how many hours were between the 1st and 2nd days of creation.  Noahs ark was explained by a guy in another post in that god "sent" the animals to Noah, Noah didn't "gather" them.  But it still seems awfully fanciful.  Adam and Eve is impossible to reconcile scientifically as are MANY things in the bible, so those things you will have to believe by blind faith alone.  I can't say I admire that (sorry Tex).  I for one take great comfort in saying: "I just don't know".  

I'm here for the hunting info too but I dabble in the political and religious forum to ease my mind.  I "monitor" these threads because I want to know that the people on this forum are NOT the stereotype, mindless nationalistic bible thumpers that most of the urban population believe us to be.  In fact,  I've found a few very thoughtful, well rounded individuals that have faith but temper it, (when they can) with their "god given" intellect.  I'm glad that you, Sterlo, are questioning.  I personally think you should, always.  I'm sad to say that inevitably there are questions that have no biblical or scientific answers, YET, and you either hold out with us skeptics and look for an answer in a petri dish or you can just believe.  Best of luck.


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## ambush80 (Jul 31, 2008)

60Grit said:


> Hey Pnome.
> 
> What time is it???





60Grit said:


> And you are certain of this how???





60Grit said:


> Who made your clock??



All man made.  Just like the scriptures.


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## pnome (Jul 31, 2008)

Big Texun said:


> After you proudly announced yourself to be a courageous atheist, saying you think I'm wrong comes as a stunning surprise.
> 
> At least you didn't proclaim that you never have doubts. Will you step across _that_ line?
> 
> Tex



I guess it did come off a tad prideful.


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## ambush80 (Jul 31, 2008)

Inatree said:


> When did atheism become a belief system ?
> A "TRUE" atheist would never waste their time engaging in a debate about creation/evolution or be able to muster enough interest to study religious text or consistently read the ramblings of those that they consider delusional.
> Any "atheist" who takes the time to engage in religious debate is perfectly proving the point that the original poster made that some "atheist" have turned atheism into a faith based anti-christianity religion, thats assuming that they do not devide the're debate time equally with Christians, Muslims, Buddists, Hindus Scienologists.....
> By  defintion an atheist has no message to propogate and is without an agenda in a religious discussion or a position in a debate.
> ...



I thought this was a spirituality/religion discussion forum not the Christian "slap each other on the back because we're right" forum.  I am more concerned with the Christians than the rest because y'all do more to shape the society I live in (though less so daily) than the rest.  I keep an eye on those other guys too but they don't seem as gung ho about trying to make the rest of the world like them.


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## Big Texun (Jul 31, 2008)

pnome said:


> I guess it did come off a tad prideful.



No problem with that. Still haven't answered my question though... ever have a little nagging doubt?

Tex

PS: Welcome Ambush. I knew this thread would draw you in like a fly to a fish carcass.


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## Double Barrel BB (Jul 31, 2008)

Sterlo58 said:


> Adam and Eve - Why are we not genetically all messed up if we are all descendants of the same two parents?


 
Adam and Eve were created perfect until they sinned. Once they sinned they became imperfect not only spiritually but also physcially, so if a male and a female that are nearly perfect, what is it likely their offspring will be? Nearly perfect but not as perfect as the parents. Once a good sized population exsist then the further away you marry in the family tree the less likely you are to have a defect. I am paraphrasing a theory I read in a book by Ken Ham, from about 15 years ago...  




Sterlo58 said:


> Noahs Ark - The fact that one man could gather two of every species in the world on to one boat is hard to grasp at best.


 
How hard is it to grasp that Jesus walked on water? brought the dead to life? turned water to wine? healed multiple sicknesses? Is it that hard to believe that God could make a boat large enough to house as many animals as he wanted? There also was 7 of some species, not just 2...




Sterlo58 said:


> Evolution - Seems to be some pretty hard scientific evidence supporting it.


 
There is no hard scientific evidence, that is why it is just a Theory, if it could be proven without doubt then it would be a LAW. Such as the examples below:

Fluid mechanics
Archimedes’ principle

Force, mass, and inertia
Kepler’s three laws of planetary motion
Newton’s three laws of motion
Newton’s law of universal gravitation

Heat, energy, and temperature
Newton’s law of cooling
Boyle’s law 
Law of conservation of energy 
Joule’s first and second law 
The four laws of thermodynamics

Quantum mechanics
Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle

Conservation laws
Conservation of mass law
Conservation of energy law
Conservation of momentum law
Conservation of angular momentum law
Charge conservation law

And there are many more laws, but you will never find Evolution as being one.

DB BB


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## ambush80 (Jul 31, 2008)

Big Texun said:


> No problem with that. Still haven't answered my question though... ever have a little nagging doubt?
> 
> Tex
> 
> PS: Welcome Ambush. I knew this thread would draw you in like a fly to a fish carcass.




Shucks. I can't help myself.


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## pnome (Jul 31, 2008)

Big Texun said:


> ever have a little nagging doubt?



I have nagging hopes.   For example, I hope I'm wrong about the "no after life" thing.   I'd really like to believe that my consciousness will go on after my death.


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## ambush80 (Jul 31, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> There is no hard scientific evidence, that is why it is just a Theory, if it could be proven without doubt then it would be a LAW. Such as the examples below:
> 
> 
> And there are many more laws, but you will never find Evolution as being one.
> ...




Science uses the word "theory" like this:

5: a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena <the wave theory of light>


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## PWalls (Jul 31, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> All man made.  Just like the scriptures.



Correction. Scripture is man-written, but God-inspired. They wrote down what God led them to write down.

There is a difference.


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## PWalls (Jul 31, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> I thought this was a spirituality/religion discussion forum not the Christian "slap each other on the back because we're right" forum.  I am more concerned with the Christians than the rest because y'all do more to shape the society I live in (though less so daily) than the rest.  I keep an eye on those other guys too but they don't seem as gung ho about trying to make the rest of the world like them.



Read the last chapter of Matthew. Christ tells all Christians to "Go and Make disciples of all the nations". So, Christians have a God-given mandate to make the rest of the world like us.


----------



## ambush80 (Jul 31, 2008)

pnome said:


> I have nagging hopes.   For example, I hope I'm wrong about the "no after life" thing.   I'd really like to believe that my consciousness will go on after my death.



That's your Ego talking.


----------



## PWalls (Jul 31, 2008)

pnome said:


> I have nagging hopes.   For example, I hope I'm wrong about the "no after life" thing.   I'd really like to believe that my consciousness will go on after my death.



That's good to hear.

However, if you don't put your life here and now in Jesus' hands, then you will not like where your "consciousness" spends that eternal afterlife.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Jul 31, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> Science uses the word "theory" like this:
> 5: a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena <THE light of theory wave>


 
definition of Plausible:

<TABLE class=luna-Ent minmax_bound="true"><TBODY minmax_bound="true"><TR minmax_bound="true"><TD vAlign=top minmax_bound="true">1.  having an appearance of truth or reason; seemingly worthy of approval or acceptance; credible; believable: _a plausible excuse; a plausible plot._

2.  well-spoken and apparently, but often deceptively, worthy of confidence or trust: _a plausible commentator._
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class=luna-Ent minmax_bound="true"><TBODY minmax_bound="true"><TR minmax_bound="true"><TD class=dn vAlign=top minmax_bound="true"></TD><TD vAlign=top minmax_bound="true"></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Plausible by what standards? Has some actually observed the Evolution of any living thing on earth? Not adaption, those are 2 different things.

DB BB


----------



## PWalls (Jul 31, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> That's your Ego talking.



Actually, I think it just might possibly be conviction.

But, hey, I'm biased.


----------



## ambush80 (Jul 31, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Read the last chapter of Matthew. Christ tells all Christians to "Go and Make disciples of all the nations". So, Christians have a God-given mandate to make the rest of the world like us.



I know.  That's ONE of my big issues with Christianity.


----------



## SBG (Jul 31, 2008)

I, being a male of the species, will never know what it is like to be pregnant.


----------



## PWalls (Jul 31, 2008)

SBG said:


> I, being a male of the species, will never know what it is like to be pregnant.



I being a husband and father of three have had my wife tell me in some very graphic and plain language what it is like. 

Russ, what in the world are you posting anyway. It went right over my head.


----------



## PWalls (Jul 31, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> I know.  That's ONE of my big issues with Christianity.



Just one issue?


----------



## Big Texun (Jul 31, 2008)

pnome said:


> I have nagging hopes.   For example, I hope I'm wrong about the "no after life" thing.   I'd really like to believe that my consciousness will go on after my death.



I'm 100% certain that your consciousness will go on when your body takes the big dirt nap.

That said, I have work to do. I must say "toodles".

You boys play nice whilst I'm away. 

Big Tex


----------



## ambush80 (Jul 31, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> definition of Plausible:
> 
> <TABLE class=luna-Ent minmax_bound="true"><TBODY minmax_bound="true"><TR minmax_bound="true"><TD vAlign=top minmax_bound="true">1.  having an appearance of truth or reason; seemingly worthy of approval or acceptance; credible; believable: _a plausible excuse; a plausible plot._
> 
> ...



I don't think science uses that 2nd definition of plausible in regards to scientific theory.  I'm not a scientist. but I'm sure you can find all the evidence you want on the internet.  Then you can dismiss it.  I'll give you a starting point.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 31, 2008)

Sterlo58 said:


> So you are saying no true Christian can ever have doubts  or questions. Just complete blind faith



No, not exactly. Mature vs immature Christian might fit better than "true Christian"

In other words, you cant compare a new convert to one that has been in there for 50 years and determine the new convert is not a true Christian because he does not have the faith that the older fella has.  

Faith is like a muscle, use it, it grows.

Nothing wrong with questions, doubts or even concerns, but at some point, got to start taking the strong meat and growing up in Christ.


----------



## ambush80 (Jul 31, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Actually, I think it just might possibly be conviction.
> 
> But, hey, I'm biased.



As long as you admit that when you talk about "truth".


----------



## pnome (Jul 31, 2008)

PWalls said:


> That's good to hear.
> 
> However, if you don't put your life here and now in Jesus' hands, then you will not like where your "consciousness" spends that eternal afterlife.




While I'm certain I do not know what happens after death.  I'm also certain that you don't either.


----------



## ambush80 (Jul 31, 2008)

PWalls said:


> That's good to hear.
> 
> However, if you don't put your life here and now in Jesus' hands, then you will not like where your "consciousness" spends that eternal afterlife.



All signs point to : back into the "soup" of the universe.


----------



## ambush80 (Jul 31, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Just one issue?



Wasn't nearly as extensive a list till I started coming here.


----------



## ambush80 (Jul 31, 2008)

pnome said:


> While I'm certain I do not know what happens after death.  I'm also certain that you don't either.



Oh, but they do, bro.  They "know" at a base level.  In a way more significant and meaningful than you and I "know" that the sun will rise.  Their conviction goes to deep, deep, deep into their psyches in a way that skeptics like you and I will never understand.  I'm not interested in that kind of an experience for many reasons.


----------



## PWalls (Jul 31, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> As long as you admit that when you talk about "truth".



My bias, my opinions, my knowledge, my understanding, my skepticism, my ANYTHING doesn't change or impact or have any affect on the Truth.


----------



## Big Texun (Jul 31, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> I know.  That's ONE of my big issues with Christianity.



One parting story before I undertake mucho trabajo...

A little old lady called 911.

Dispatcher: What's the problem ma'am?

Lady: The man across the street is exposing himself - I want it STOPPED!

Police officer arrives on scene... drives up and down the street a few times... pulls into the lady's drive and knocks on the door.

"What's the problem Ma'am?"

Lady, "The man across the street is exposing himself!"

Officer: "Ma'am, I've driven up and down your street 3 times and I just don't see anything."

Lady, "IF YOU STAND ON THIS CHAIR YOU WILL!"


Relevance? If that is ONE of your biggest issues with Christianity, seems kinda odd that you would spend so much time choosing to go to a Christian-dominated internet forum. Is someone else driving your mouse?

Tex

PS: Be very glad that Christians are not like Muslim extremists.


----------



## PWalls (Jul 31, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> All signs point to : back into the "soup" of the universe.



What "signs"?


----------



## PWalls (Jul 31, 2008)

pnome said:


> While I'm certain I do not know what happens after death.  I'm also certain that you don't either.



Ahhhh.

Take it a step further then.

I have faith and belief in something else. A glorious eternal future in Heaven for believers and a pretty bad time for all eternity in the hot place for non-believers. You have faith in nothing. If I am wrong and you are right, then we will both just end up being part of a soup stock as Ambush80 stated. If I am right and you are wrong, then I end up in a pretty good place and you get to be hot under the collar for eternity.

That alone right there is a logical reason for an Atheist to at least consider and look into the options that Christians present.


----------



## ambush80 (Jul 31, 2008)

PWalls said:


> What "signs"?



Quantum theory, the notion that matter is energy potentials all flowing about changing from one thing to another;  getting recycled.


----------



## ambush80 (Jul 31, 2008)

Big Texun said:


> One parting story before I undertake mucho trabajo...
> 
> A little old lady called 911.
> 
> ...



I like you guys.


----------



## jmharris23 (Jul 31, 2008)

pnome said:


> While I'm certain I do not know what happens after death.  I'm also certain that you don't either.



Depends on how you define *know*: 

Knowledge is the ability to to represent things as they are on an appropriate basis of thought and experience.

There are 3 Kinds of knowledge: 

Knowledge by acquaintance: to be directly aware of something.

Propositional knowledge: justified true belief; it is believing something that is true on the basis of adequate grounds

Know-How: the ability to engage in the correct behavioral movements, such as following steps in a manual, with little or no knowledge of why one is performing these steps.

A few points on knowledge:

*Knowledge does not require certainty.* You are only certain if it is utterly impossible to be mistaken about it. Few things are known with certainty: Examples would be(I exist, the basic principles of math are true, and the fundamental laws of logic are correct.)

*You can know something without knowing that you know it*

*You can know something without knowing how you know it*


So while you may not KNOW what happens after death, I my friend, am convinced and convicted that I do KNOW, what happens after death. 

Because of that knowledge there is no fear in my heart of death or sickness, and a true peace that I KNOW where my eternal soul will reside.


----------



## SBG (Jul 31, 2008)

PWalls said:


> I being a husband and father of three have had my wife tell me in some very graphic and plain language what it is like.
> 
> Russ, what in the world are you posting anyway. It went right over my head.




To truly understand being pregnant, you must first have experienced it. The same is true of the relationship that one has with God. If you have not experienced it, you cannot understand it. The word faith takes on a totally new meaning to those that have been regenerated. 

Faith cannot adequately be explained to one that has not had the same experience.


----------



## crackerdave (Jul 31, 2008)

I hesitate to jump in this with all of these intellectually gifted folks,but faith is actually very easy to understand - at least for a dumb cracker such as myself.
It is believing in something that you cannot see or touch.


----------



## pnome (Jul 31, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Ahhhh.
> 
> Take it a step further then.
> 
> ...




How many other religions are there?  Or have there been?  Each with it's own claim on the afterlife.  What makes you think the Christians are right?  Perhaps you'll be punished  by a wrathful god that you chose to regard as "false".  Your wager doesn't look so logical now.   When you consider the possibility that another religion might be the "one true religion" you are looking at some long odds.


----------



## pnome (Jul 31, 2008)

rangerdave said:


> I hesitate to jump in this with all of these intellectually gifted folks,but faith is actually very easy to understand - at least for a dumb cracker such as myself.




Let me set something straight.  I'm no scholar.  I don't even have a bachelors degree.  I'm just a humble software developer making posts while the server I'm working on re-caches with my latest changes.


----------



## redwards (Jul 31, 2008)

pnome,
Do you like to read? If you do, I would be happy to send you a book to read and return to me. No obligations.


----------



## crackerdave (Jul 31, 2008)

pnome said:


> Let me set something straight.  I'm no scholar.  I don't even have a bachelors degree.  I'm just a humble software developer making posts while the server I'm working on re-caches with my latest changes.



I wasn't talking about YOU!


----------



## pnome (Jul 31, 2008)

redwards said:


> pnome,
> Do you like to read? If you do, I would be happy to send you a book to read and return to me. No obligations.



I might have already read it.  My family has sent me many books on Christian apologetics and the like.  

I'll make a deal with you though, we'll swap books.  I'll read your book, if you read mine.


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 31, 2008)

rangerdave said:


> I wasn't talking about YOU!



ouch!!


----------



## pnome (Jul 31, 2008)

rangerdave said:


> I wasn't talking about YOU!



  I guess that was rather presumptuous of me.


----------



## PWalls (Jul 31, 2008)

pnome said:


> How many other religions are there?  Or have there been?  Each with it's own claim on the afterlife.  What makes you think the Christians are right?  Perhaps you'll be punished  by a wrathful god that you chose to regard as "false".  Your wager doesn't look so logical now.   When you consider the possibility that another religion might be the "one true religion" you are looking at some long odds.



Again, Ahhhh.

At least I have odds. Your belief in absolute nothing affords you no chance. Zero odds. If what you say is true, then at least belief in a God gives me a chance at being right.


----------



## PWalls (Jul 31, 2008)

rangerdave said:


> I hesitate to jump in this with all of these intellectually gifted folks,but faith is actually very easy to understand - at least for a dumb cracker such as myself.
> It is believing in something that you cannot see or touch.



Pretty simple.


----------



## PWalls (Jul 31, 2008)

SBG said:


> To truly understand being pregnant, you must first have experienced it. The same is true of the relationship that one has with God. If you have not experienced it, you cannot understand it. The word faith takes on a totally new meaning to those that have been regenerated.
> 
> Faith cannot adequately be explained to one that has not had the same experience.



See where you were going now.

I guess I just needed to go load up on some Chinese during lunch.


----------



## Big Texun (Jul 31, 2008)

pnome said:


> Let me set something straight.  I'm no scholar.  I don't even have a bachelors degree.  I'm just a humble software developer making posts while the server I'm working on re-caches with my latest changes.



Just popped in for a quick peek after lunch.

Pnome, you don't need a bachelors degree to be brilliant... and you gosh darn well know it. You'll likely remember my first description of the atheists I've worked with... "In school, IF they chose to participate..." 

If you don't have a bachelors degree, it certainly wasn't a result of your inability to pass intellectual muster. In fact, the fact that you got a job writing software... without a degree... clearly suggests that your intellect impressed somebody. Otherwise, you'd more likely be burning welding rods somewhere (by the way, not saying there is anything wrong with burning rods... just making a point).

Sorry, I don't buy it. You are a very smart guy that has a bit of rebellious streak. While I'm on that topic, you and Ambush80 could have been pulled from the same bucket.

Let the games continue... I've gotta go back to work.

Tex


----------



## crackerdave (Jul 31, 2008)

pnome said:


> I guess that was rather presumptuous of me.



Just kiddin'! I can tell you're a smart feller - just a little misguided!


----------



## pnome (Jul 31, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Again, Ahhhh.
> 
> At least I have odds. Your belief in absolute nothing affords you no chance. Zero odds. If what you say is true, then at least belief in a God gives me a chance at being right.




I do have some chance though.  Have you ever heard of the "Atheists wager"?  It's kind of a response to pascal's wager (which is what you are presenting).  It goes something like this:



> My wager is that if there is a god, and it is a just god, then living a just and moral life will be acknowledged regardless of ones beliefs. If there exists an unjust or immoral god, then I could never satisfy both my conscience and such a god. My wager is that if the Christians are right about god being just and all-knowing and all-loving, I will be rewarded if I act in morally sound, justified ways.


from: http://atheism.about.com/b/2005/04/22/atheists-wager.htm

Thomas Jefferson put it more succinctly:


> Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.


----------



## crackerdave (Jul 31, 2008)

God will prevail - mankind will definitely NOT!


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Jul 31, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> I don't think science uses that 2nd definition of plausible in regards to scientific theory. I'm not a scientist. but I'm sure you can find all the evidence you want on the internet. Then you can dismiss it. I'll give you a starting point.
> 
> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/


 

No need to give me a starting point, I have a Bachlors degree in Chemistry from GSU. I have had discussions with many Biologist and Chemist on this very topic...  I a pretty sure I have seen a majority of the so called evidence, pretty weak if you ask me...

If we came from a "Monkey like" ancestor, shouldn't there be thousands upon thousands of fossils of those "Monkey like" ancestors? Scientist can find Dino fossils, but they can't find our "Monkey like" ancestors... Give me a break.. They can't find them because there isn't any.

DB BB


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## redwards (Jul 31, 2008)

pnome said:


> I might have already read it. My family has sent me many books on Christian apologetics and the like.
> 
> I'll make a deal with you though, we'll swap books. I'll read your book, if you read mine.


I'll do this. We don't even have to make a deal. 
I'll PM you the name of the book I would like to send you. 
If you want to read it, then just PM me your mailing address along with the name of the book you want me to read. 
As long as the book does not contain obscenities and objectionable (vulgar) language, I will read it.
Ralph


----------



## ambush80 (Jul 31, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> No need to give me a starting point, I have a Bachlors degree in Chemistry from GSU. I have had discussions with many Biologist and Chemist on this very topic...  I a pretty sure I have seen a majority of the so called evidence, pretty weak if you ask me...
> 
> If we came from a "Monkey like" ancestor, shouldn't there be thousands upon thousands of fossils of those "Monkey like" ancestors? Scientist can find Dino fossils, but they can't find our "Monkey like" ancestors... Give me a break.. They can't find them because there isn't any.
> 
> DB BB




http://www.archaeologyinfo.com/australopithecusafarensis.htm


----------



## farmasis (Jul 31, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> http://www.archaeologyinfo.com/australopithecusafarensis.htm


 
Tel Aviv University anthropologists say they have disproven the theory that "Lucy" - the world-famous 3.2-million-year-old _Australopithecus afarensis _skeleton found in Ethiopia 33 years ago - is the last ancestor common to humans and another branch of the great apes family known as the "Robust hominids." 
<!-- It will play either video as first choice, or first image if there isn't an image  -->
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 The jaw bone of Lucy and the jaw bone of _Australopithecus afarensis_.
*Photo: Courtesy*

<!-- START slideshow link -->


The specific structure found in Lucy also appears in a species called _Australopithecus robustus_. Prof. Yoel Rak and colleagues at the Sackler School of Medicine's department of anatomy and anthropology wrote, "The presence of the morphology in both the latter and _Australopithecus afarensis _and its absence in modern humans cast doubt on the role of [Lucy] as a common ancestor." 
The robust hominids were discovered in southern Africa 69 years ago and are believed to have lived between 2 million and 1.2 million years ago. Their jaws and jaw muscles were adapted to the dry environment in which they lived. 
Rak and colleagues studied 146 mature primate bone specimens, including those from modern humans, gorillas, chimpanzees and orangutans and found that the "ramus element" of the mandible connecting the lower jaw to the skull is like that of the robust forms, therefore eliminating the possibility that Lucy and her kind are Man's direct ancestors. They should therefore, the Israeli researchers said, "be placed as the beginning of the branch that evolved in parallel to ours." 
Their research has just been published in the on-line edition of _PNAS_, the Proceedings of the [US] National Academy of Sciences. Lucy, which means "you are wonderful" in Amharic, was discovered (40 percent of its skeleton) by the International Afar Research Expedition in Ethiopia's Awash Valley. Fitting the bones together, they said it was an upright walking hominid (Homo sapiens, which comprises modern Man and extinct manlike species). They later found its jaws and additional bones. 

Further analysis led the Afar researchers to believe it was of a female, and the skeleton listed as AL 288-1 was nicknamed Lucy because the Beatles' song "Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds" was often played at the camp. 
The specimen was only 1.1 meters tall, estimated to weigh 29 kilograms and look somewhat like a common chimpanzee. Although it had a small brain, the pelvis and leg bones were almost identical in function with those of modern humans, proving that these hominids had walked erect. 
Although fossils closer to chimpanzees have been found since then, Lucy - which is housed in the national museum in Addis Ababa - is prized by anthropologists who study Man's origin. Rak and his colleagues also wrote that the structure of Lucy's mandibular ramus closely matches that of gorillas, which was "unexpected" because chimpanzees are the closest living relatives of humans, and not gorillas. 

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1176152801536&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull


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## StriperAddict (Jul 31, 2008)

Woodswalker said:


> alright, riddle me this please. i can see that God created everything 6,000 years ago, thereabouts, according to the Chinese clockworks.
> 
> Now, given Adam and Eve, as standard issue humans, how did we all get to this point in time looking like we do?
> 
> ...


 
Do a search about the Tower of Babel in the OT.  It was there that God "divided the tounges" of men, more or less the start of different languages and cultures.


----------



## Sterlo58 (Jul 31, 2008)

Woodswalker said:


> alright, riddle me this please. i can see that God created everything 6,000 years ago, thereabouts, according to the Chinese clockworks.
> 
> Now, given Adam and Eve, as standard issue humans, how did we all get to this point in time looking like we do?
> 
> ...



HMMMMMM Good point.
Back to my original question, how did Adam and Eve create this Hodgepodge of races ?


----------



## PWalls (Jul 31, 2008)

Sterlo58 said:


> HMMMMMM Good point.
> Back to my original question, how did Adam and Eve create this Hodgepodge of races ?



Actually, since everybody but Noah and his three sons/wives died in the flood, it would be more correct to say that family kinda started the propigation.


----------



## Sterlo58 (Jul 31, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Actually, since everybody but Noah and his three sons/wives died in the flood, it would be more correct to say that family kinda started the propigation.



SO - HOW ARE WE ALL NORMAL ( ALL BRED FROM SAME GENES ) and how did the different races evolve ??????????????????????????????
Come on someone has a theory


----------



## PWalls (Jul 31, 2008)

Everyone lived longer back then because the human DNA and such were "better" or more pure back then. Didn't have holes in the Ozone (heck, before the flood, there was water up there). Didn't have lots of bad influences on us that would make us less robust like now.  So, anyway, since the blood lines were purer and cleaner, there wasn't nearly as bad a chance of some bad inbreeding from kissing cousins.


----------



## StriperAddict (Jul 31, 2008)

Sterlo58 said:


> SO - HOW ARE WE ALL NORMAL ( ALL BRED FROM SAME GENES ) and how did the different races evolve ??????????????????????????????
> Come on someone has a theory


 
Check out:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis 11:1-9;&version=9;




Woodswalker said:


> it's pretty easy to see that if we (God's people) can get this planet to running and advancing like it should, that'd free us to move on to other planets and give them a helping hand.


 
I think we have enough trouble managing our world here, before we go jumping around the cosmos looking for E.T.


----------



## farmasis (Jul 31, 2008)

Sterlo58 said:


> HMMMMMM Good point.
> Back to my original question, how did Adam and Eve create this Hodgepodge of races ?


 

A whole lot easier to believe than a monkey like creature, ain't it?

Some of the results from the Human Genome project:

Any two humans are more than 99 percent the same at the genetic level.

The overview paper also reports that the Phase II HapMap has provided new insights into the structure of human genetic variation. One new finding was the surprising extent of recent common ancestry found in all of the population groups. Taking advantage of the map's increased resolution, the researchers identified stretches of identical DNA between pairs of donor chromosomes and then compared these stretches both within and across individuals. Their analysis showed that 10 to 30 percent of the DNA segments analyzed in each population showed shared regions indicating descent from a common ancestor within 10 to 100 generations.

http://www.genome.gov/26023283


----------



## Sterlo58 (Jul 31, 2008)

Nobody has answered my questions yet. I am expected to accept your explanations with no proof. Just blind faith. Come on guys. I can quote bible versus as well as the next guy but let's talk reality.  The biblical explanation for creation is full of holes. How can we accept this without any shred of proof. I am trying my best to be open minded but to blindly accept unproven theories is like shooting at movement in the brush.  What motivates you to accept unproven theories.


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 31, 2008)

Sterlo58 said:


> Nobody has answered my questions yet. I am expected to accept your explanations with no proof. Just blind faith. Come on guys. I can quote bible versus as well as the next guy but let's talk reality.  The biblical explanation for creation is full of holes. How can we accept this without any shred of proof. I am trying my best to be open minded but to blindly accept unproven theories is like shooting at movement in the brush.  What motivates you to accept unproven theories.



Faith. 

Who makes the decision that its unproven theory? The problem may very well lie with the unbeliever, not the Bible. Its proven to me. This cant be explained to you, only God himself can reveal it to you, your looking for an answer that cant be given by men.


----------



## farmasis (Jul 31, 2008)

Sterlo58 said:


> Nobody has answered my questions yet. I am expected to accept your explanations with no proof. Just blind faith. Come on guys. I can quote bible versus as well as the next guy but let's talk reality. The biblical explanation for creation is full of holes. How can we accept this without any shred of proof. I am trying my best to be open minded but to blindly accept unproven theories is like shooting at movement in the brush. What motivates you to accept unproven theories.


 
Did you not read my post?


----------



## StriperAddict (Jul 31, 2008)

Spotlite said:


> Faith.
> 
> Who makes the decision that its unproven theory? The problem may very well lie with the unbeliever, not the Bible. Its proven to me. This cant be explained to you, only God himself can reveal it to you, your looking for an answer that cant be given by men.


 

Well said.


----------



## Ronnie T (Jul 31, 2008)

Pnome
     Personally, I believe an atheist is simply a person who hasn't confessed their belief in God and Jesus Christ yet.

The most profound atheist that I have ever known was C.S. Lewis.  C.S. Lewis was such an atheist that he set out to read the Bible and prove how rediculous it is.  In his reading, he came to believe.  Since then he became a strong, powerful, teacher of the good news of Jesus Christ.  CS Lewis is probably quoted from the pulpit more than some bible writers.
CS Lewis once said this:   "A person must be very very careful when reading about the life and gospel of Jesus Christ.  It has a tendency of turning staunch unbelievers into preachers".

Don't let anyone get you down Pnome.  You keep talking about God and Jesus and they'll pull you to them.
God Bless


----------



## ambush80 (Jul 31, 2008)

farmasis said:


> Tel Aviv University anthropologists say they have disproven the theory that "Lucy" - the world-famous 3.2-million-year-old _Australopithecus afarensis _skeleton found in Ethiopia 33 years ago - is the last ancestor common to humans and another branch of the great apes family known as the "Robust hominids."
> <!-- It will play either video as first choice, or first image if there isn't an image  -->
> 
> 
> ...



Very interesting.   So Robustus is a better candidate for the common ancestor.  That's news to me.  Just goes to show that if you keep turning over rocks you will get closer to an understanding of how things work.  Either way, if you use these findings to prove anything it should be how evolution works.  

Its easy to find examples of transitional species.  Just google it.  Try Archaeopteryx or Tiktaalik.  

Look, man.  Keep digging around and you will find somebody who has written a paper disproving anything.  So don't use evolutionary theory.  Don't use quantum theory or wave theory or gravitational theory either if you like.  I don't know what you do, but if you're not a particle physicist or an astronomer or an archaeologist than what do you need this stuff for.  

If you want to believe that all the species on the planet spontaneously appeared---POOF!, distinct and unrelated; then go ahead.  Probably won't affect you in the course of a day.  If you want to ask questions, like Sterno then keep turning over rocks.  You sound like you have an answer you believe in and you will go to great lengths to prove it, or at least disprove something that doesn't jive with it. 

Your faith is bigger than this science malarkey anyway.  Using science to back it up is silly.


----------



## ambush80 (Jul 31, 2008)

Spotlite said:


> Faith.
> 
> Who makes the decision that its unproven theory? The problem may very well lie with the unbeliever, not the Bible. Its proven to me. This cant be explained to you, only God himself can reveal it to you, your looking for an answer that cant be given by men.




You hear what this guy is saying, Farmasis?


----------



## ambush80 (Jul 31, 2008)

Big Texun said:


> Tex
> 
> PS: Be very glad that Christians are not like Muslim extremists.



Or Christian extremists.


----------



## Ronnie T (Jul 31, 2008)

Hebrew 11:1Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 
 2For by it the men of old gained approval. 
 3By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.


----------



## Spotlite (Aug 1, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> You hear what this guy is saying, Farmasis?


Are you talking about Lucy? Its basically a human that came from what? you can cross a Chinese and an Indian and get different skeletal features than I have. You can cross 2 dogs and get a different looking dog, but he still came from a dog. 

Funny how evolution just stopped for the last several hundred years, man nor animal hasnt changed one bit in that time frame.  

I dont know what your getting at, but honestly I could really care less how old the world really is and who was here first and what they looked like, the only thing I know and rely on is "In the beginning God" and I just leave it there. 

All the scientific theories and researches are not going to mean a hill of beans when its time to be called home. If folks want to believe their great great great great uncle was an ape, go for it, all I know is the last time I played in the trees I fell out and broke my arm.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 1, 2008)

Spotlite said:


> Are you talking about Lucy? Its basically a human that came from what? you can cross a Chinese and an Indian and get different skeletal features than I have. You can cross 2 dogs and get a different looking dog, but he still came from a dog.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And there it is in a nutshell....  You good sir are spot on.  You can live the rest of your life and not know how a light bulb or a particle accelerator or an anterior cruciate ligament works, unless your a mechanical engineer, physicist or surgeon or just a guy who wants to know how things work.  You know, Darwin was a very devout Christian from what I understand.  He was actually trying to find a way to describe how God's miracle works, perhaps to get a better understanding of God and maybe get closer to him.  Same with Copernicus (the guy who said the Earth revolved around the sun, another very blasphemous notion in its day).  

I feel that if I seek to understand how things work, I can better understand my place in the scheme of things and It works for me.


----------



## farmasis (Aug 1, 2008)

So, Ambush, do you have any hard truths concerning atheism or do you realize that you are relying on faith?


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## Spotlite (Aug 1, 2008)

Ambush, the problem is, there are just some things we dont need to know and should not look for, thats the dividing line of Faith and Self. The Tree in the Garden and the Tower of Babel are good examples. If we know all the answers, we no longer need God.


----------



## StriperAddict (Aug 1, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> The most profound atheist that I have ever known was C.S. Lewis. C.S. Lewis was such an atheist that he set out to read the Bible and prove how rediculous it is. In his reading, he came to believe. Since then he became a strong, powerful, teacher of the good news of Jesus Christ. CS Lewis is probably quoted from the pulpit more than some bible writers.
> CS Lewis once said this: "A person must be very very careful when reading about the life and gospel of Jesus Christ. It has a tendency of turning staunch unbelievers into preachers".


 
Good points. 
Another atheist I’ve studied is Dr. Ivan Panin born in Russia in 1855. He was a brilliant mathematician and began to study the whole bible in it’s original Hebrew and Greek.  What he found convinced him of the scriptures authenticity.  As God moved mere men to pen the pages of the bible, God was able to put a unique mathematical ‘seal’ on what was written!



While I have simple faith to believe the message of the bible, I also believe there are unique “proofs” like this out there to help man along on thier journey to know the living God. 

Click  here to read more about Dr. Panin.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 1, 2008)

farmasis said:


> So, Ambush, do you have any hard truths concerning atheism or do you realize that you are relying on faith?



I'm not an atheist.  I guess I could be called an agnostic, maybe even a deist, meaning I don't know if there is a god but the jury's still out.  Or I have a sense of god but not much specifically.  I'm 100% sure that the Christian god doesn't fit into my barely formulated concept of what god is like.



Spotlite said:


> Ambush, the problem is, there are just some things we dont need to know and should not look for, thats the dividing line of Faith and Self. The Tree in the Garden and the Tower of Babel are good examples. If we know all the answers, we no longer need God.



I have different needs than you, clearly.  A great many things have been learned that enrich our lives that would never have been known if someone listened to people who said "you just don't need to know that".


----------



## Spotlite (Aug 1, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> I'm not an atheist.  I guess I could be called an agnostic, maybe even a deist, meaning I don't know if there is a god but the jury's still out.  Or I have a sense of god but not much specifically.  I'm 100% sure that the Christian god doesn't fit into my barely formulated concept of what god is like.
> 
> 
> 
> I have different needs than you, clearly.  A great many things have been learned that enrich our lives that would never have been known if someone listened to people who said "you just don't need to know that".



Im sure you do, I do welcome scientific theories to a certain point, nothing at all wrong with understanding how something works, but when it gets to the point of "Im gonna prove God didnt" then I loose interest in it.

 I have no issues with a scientist explaining to me how the body works with all its complex systems, but when they try to take the creation of it from its creator, I cut the switch off.

And your statement in blue confirms my whole point, you either have Faith and believe in God or your skeptical and you rely on self for material proof.

Faith is not seen.


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 1, 2008)

pnome said:


> How many other religions are there?  Or have there been?  Each with it's own claim on the afterlife.  What makes you think the Christians are right?  Perhaps you'll be punished  by a wrathful god that you chose to regard as "false".  Your wager doesn't look so logical now.   When you consider the possibility that another religion might be the "one true religion" you are looking at some long odds.



This is where you are wrong....and I don't mean to Hijack this thread.

There are only 2 religions in the World.  One religion says that you have work your way to a glorious afterlife  and one that says the glorious afterlife is a Free gift.  All religions can be lumped into these two categories.  

By my convictions and the reading of the Bible, only one is right.


----------



## crackerdave (Aug 1, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> This is where you are wrong....and I don't mean to Hijack this thread.
> 
> There are only 2 religions in the World.  One religion says that you have work your way to a glorious afterlife  and one that says the glorious afterlife is a Free gift.  All religions can be lumped into these two categories.
> 
> By my convictions and the reading of the Bible, only one is right.



Now,that's what I like - plain,simple truth! No 1000 word cut-n-paste junk that somebody else wrote!


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 1, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> This is where you are wrong....and I don't mean to Hijack this thread.
> 
> There are only 2 religions in the World.  One religion says that you have work your way to a glorious afterlife  and one that says the glorious afterlife is a Free gift.  All religions can be lumped into these two categories.
> 
> By my convictions and the reading of the Bible, only one is right.



*There's only one God and one Savior.  Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior.  Thru Him God loves me more than any love that's ever been known to man.  It is His desire that I become His disciple.  His follower.  That I live for Him. And that I serve Him.  Much of the way I serve Him is through serving other people.  God grants unto His disciples salvation that cannot be bought or earned or made.  I'll always depend upon His mercy.  I'll never be worth of His forgiveness.  My God is a God of Love.
That makes Him different from anyother so-called God.  Truth is, there is only one God.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 1, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> *There's only one God and one Savior.  Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior.  Thru Him God loves me more than any love that's ever been known to man.  It is His desire that I become His disciple.  His follower.  That I live for Him. And that I serve Him.  Much of the way I serve Him is through serving other people.  God grants unto His disciples salvation that cannot be bought or earned or made.  I'll always depend upon His mercy.  I'll never be worth of His forgiveness.  My God is a God of Love.
> That makes Him different from anyother so-called God.  Truth is, there is only one God.



I know that it seems like "they" have to be wrong so that "you" can be right but it just isn't so.  They often have the same deep conviction that you have.  No better, no worse.


----------



## 2tines (Aug 2, 2008)

pnome said:


> I think you have 2tines wrong.  I don't want to speak for him but, that  from him represents his only post in this particular forum. I think he just found the analogy funny.
> 
> Honestly, no games here, I just think you're wrong and I'm saying so.


pnome you are exactly correct, it was funny to me. now as for my take, i believe there is a need for both atheism and christianity. i personally have way to many questions to be considered christian( even though i was raised that way) i also believe that the world as a whole needs religion,because the whole world would go to pot without it.just my 2 pennies


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## redwards (Aug 2, 2008)

<TABLE id=HB_Mail_Container height="100%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0 UNSELECTABLE="on"><TBODY><TR height="100%" UNSELECTABLE="on" width="100%"><TD id=HB_Focus_Element vAlign=top width="100%" background="" height=250 UNSELECTABLE="off">ambush80,
I hesitate to ask such a mundane question in the midst of so much intellectual data you have given us, but I'll ask anyway.
What is truth...is it relative or absolute?


</TD></TR><TR UNSELECTABLE="on" hb_tag="1"><TD style="FONT-SIZE: 1pt" height=1 UNSELECTABLE="on">


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


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## crackerdave (Aug 2, 2008)




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## Jim Thompson (Aug 2, 2008)

although I have to say that yall have all debated and argued your points very well in this thread...even without mean ol nasty mods having to step in

anyone remember my siglin from back in 01 or so????  its still very relevant today.

"you cant argue religion...no matter what side your on"


----------



## Big Texun (Aug 2, 2008)

Big Texun said:


> Why do atheists frequent Christian boards? I think there are probably two reasons:
> 
> 1. They love to debate... and lets face it, its pretty easy for an atheist to start a spirited debate on a Christian board. Because of their intellectual prowess, they are great at these debates...  and, whether one is a Christian or an atheist, it is fun to win. For lack of a better word, I think it is a game to them... a game in which we are their toys.
> 
> ...



Stepped back in for a brief check of this thread this morning. The wife stepped out to get her nails done.

After my quick review, I still stand by the above theory. It is not an absolute truth, just a theory. 

Let the games continue, I said my piece earlier in the thread.

Tex


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## ambush80 (Aug 2, 2008)

2tines said:


> pnome you are exactly correct, it was funny to me. now as for my take, i believe there is a need for both atheism and christianity. i personally have way to many questions to be considered christian( even though i was raised that way) i also believe that the world as a whole needs religion,because the whole world would go to pot without it.just my 2 pennies




Everything in moderation.



redwards said:


> <TABLE id=HB_Mail_Container height="100%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0 UNSELECTABLE="on"><TBODY><TR height="100%" UNSELECTABLE="on" width="100%"><TD id=HB_Focus_Element vAlign=top width="100%" background="" height=250 UNSELECTABLE="off">ambush80,
> I hesitate to ask such a mundane question in the midst of so much intellectual data you have given us, but I'll ask anyway.
> What is truth...is it relative or absolute?
> 
> ...




I don't know.


----------



## StriperAddict (Aug 2, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> I don't know.


 
Try to settle that question if you can.  Otherwise a debate here is meaningless, IMO.


----------



## StriperAddict (Aug 2, 2008)

Woodswalker said:


> which causes us to think or even realize that we don't know where we were, we don't know where we are, and most certainly, we don't know where we are going.


 
>sigh< Mr. relativity hath spoken




Woodswalker said:


> science can be both the child of atheism and faith. it can serve both, at least up to a point.


 
True science will never be found to serve atheism.  Time will show.


----------



## pnome (Aug 2, 2008)

redwards said:


> What is truth...is it relative or absolute?



I know you didn't ask me, but I'm gonna go with absolute but unknowable

see: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 2, 2008)

Who speaks with a forked tongue? I mean, did the serpent in the Garden of Eden speak european or what?

Faith is not about wether our beliefs are rooted in legends or stories even though these inform the faithful.For the christian faith is about man's relationship with the Devine and other individuals.

I suspect that for the atheist it is also the same minus the Devine part. Being an atheist because the scriptures are full of fable, is like being a christian for the h e l l of it.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 2, 2008)

redwards said:


> <TABLE id=HB_Mail_Container height="100%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0 UNSELECTABLE="on"><TBODY><TR height="100%" UNSELECTABLE="on" width="100%"><TD id=HB_Focus_Element vAlign=top width="100%" background="" height=250 UNSELECTABLE="off">ambush80,
> I hesitate to ask such a mundane question in the midst of so much intellectual data you have given us, but I'll ask anyway.
> What is truth...is it relative or absolute?
> 
> ...



I don't know, but I'm leaning toward relative.  My "real" isn't the same as a paranoid schizophrenic (not implying that Christians are paranoid schizophrenics).


----------



## Spotlite (Aug 2, 2008)

Jim Thompson said:


> although I have to say that yall have all debated and argued your points very well in this thread...even without mean ol nasty mods having to step in
> 
> anyone remember my siglin from back in 01 or so????  its still very relevant today.
> 
> "you cant argue religion...no matter what side your on"



Hello Mr Mean Admin, I wasnt around in 01 but I remember the sig line a couple years back with that, there was politics also I thinkyoud think we would learn by now


----------



## crackerdave (Aug 3, 2008)

Yeah,ol' Daddy warned me about discussing politics or religion,and he was right - but here I am!


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 3, 2008)

rangerdave said:


> Yeah,ol' Daddy warned me about discussing politics or religion,and he was right - but here I am!



Its the burden of having thoughts.


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## jneil (Aug 3, 2008)

rangerdave said:


> Yeah,ol' Daddy warned me about discussing politics or religion,and he was right - but here I am!



Sometime you can change peoples minds on politics, but rarely on religion.


----------



## Big Texun (Aug 4, 2008)

jneil said:


> Sometime you can change peoples minds on politics, but rarely on religion.



That's why when it happens... you know you aren't the one that did it. 

BT


----------



## Branchminnow (Aug 4, 2008)

After the world has ended IF there would be a writer left he would write..................And it came to pass..........


----------



## z71gacowboy (Aug 4, 2008)

Spotlite said:


> The whole Christian aspect is based around Faith, you cant have "Faith" and "Doubt" at the same time. If your doubting the accuracy of the Bible, you will never have Faith to believe in it.




Jesus said let your doubt increase your faith.....in other words if you doubt...dont just sit there in doubt seek out God and the truth and the word says if you knock the door will be opened if you seek you will find. 

doubting is healthy...i had an athiest friend in high school, and he had doubt in his atheism but since you dont believe in God there is a stumbling block of "i dont believe in it so theres nothing to seek out if i doubt, because i dont believe" and he never sought anything to ease his doubt in atheism because of this. he grew up in india as hindu faith then to atheism. Ive studied many other religions academically..even during a time when I wasnt walking with God in the faith..but none ever showed truth. 

Im not knocking anyone who chooses to believe nothing, but when I doubt things I seek to find an answer because its in my nature to want to know the truth. And Im sold with all the real truth in the word of the one true God. The word of God is sharper than any two edge sword, splitting bone and marrow, soul and spirit and discerning the truth from the lies. There are lots of things historically and scientifically in the bible that werent popularly accepted till thousands of years later.........that actually says alot in my eyes, that the truth was there in the word first but people didnt acknowledge it and even when it was accepted God wasnt given the credit for revealing this information to man.


----------



## redwards (Aug 5, 2008)

pnome said:


> I know you didn't ask me, but I'm gonna go with absolute but unknowable
> 
> see:
> 
> ...


pnome,
I don’t mind at all that you replied. I may have directed my question to ambush80, but really anyone is free to reply as he/she chooses.
I agree with you that truth is absolute; however I believe truth is knowable.

Truth has become in today’s society as Isaiah 59:14 states: “Justice is turned back, And righteousness stands far away; For truth has stumbled in the street, And uprightness cannot enter.” 

Everyone seems to have their own version of ‘truth’. 

I believe there is true truth, and it is not relative but absolute. In other words, true truth is true even if we don’t think it’s true. 
I know this may sound presumptuous and without proof or foundation, but as Jeremiah 10:10 states: “But the LORD is the true God; He is the living <SUP></SUP>God and the everlasting King. At His wrath the earth quakes, And the nations cannot endure His indignation.” 

As I have read through God’s Word I have not found one untruth in it, but then I am no authority on scripture, either. However, The Holy Spirit lives within my heart and soul, and gives me the peace and confidence to believe the Word as it is written in His Book. 

To relate just a part of my personal experience with truth as I see it; I retired from BellSouth almost 11 years ago. While I have worked for them on a contract basis for a number of years since then, I also began in 2002 to work on an as needed basis at a local funeral home to assist in funeral services when the funeral home needed additional personnel ( it is a part time job on just an as needed basis; however, it does provide me some of the resources ($) needed to deer hunt). 

Since that time I have had many occasions to observe family members of the deceased person as they viewed their loved one before the casket was closed for the last time. I do not mean this in any disrespectful way whatsoever; I only state it to make a point, you know there was not a breath of life left in even one of those precious bodies. In fact, just in these last four days, I have witnessed five such cases.

That is where true truth really hits home. 
There is not a one of us on this earth, barring the sudden and unexpected return of The Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, who will escape that reality of truth. 
One day we shall, each and everyone of us, draw our last breath of air on this earth. At that moment there is only one true question which remains. “What then?” 

I have the faith to believe and the assurance from the Word of God, that I, and anyone else who has repented of his/her sins and confessed Jesus as Savior, shall go home to be with The Lord eternally. 

It is my hope and prayer that you have received and are reading the book I recently mailed you, and that The Holy Spirit will speak to you in a positive way through the reading of that book. 

I have read quite a bit of the information on both of the sites you referenced above, but quite honestly, you could put what I know about Quantum Mechanics or Quantum Physics on the pointed end of a needle and there would be plenty of room to spare, so I cannot add to or take away from anything stated about either the ‘Uncertainty Principle’ or the ‘observer effect’, nor shall I attempt to do so!

However, I did find this statement on this site: http://www.aip.org/history/heisenberg/p08c.htm


> *One should note that Heisenberg's *uncertainty principle does not say "everything is uncertain." Rather, it tells us very exactly where the limits of uncertainty lie when we make measurements of sub-atomic events.


Be Truly Blessed,
Ralph <O


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 5, 2008)

redwards said:


> As I have read through God’s Word I have not found one untruth in it, but then I am no authority on scripture, either. However, The Holy Spirit lives within my heart and soul, and gives me the peace and confidence to believe the Word as it is written in His Book.
> 
> 
> I have the faith to believe and the assurance from the Word of God





What you are saying here is:  "Its true because its the truth".   I can't live my life that way.


----------



## crackerdave (Aug 5, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> What you are saying here is:  "Its true because its the truth".   I can't live my life that way.



We will all live with our decisions - eternally.


----------



## Spotlite (Aug 5, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> What you are saying here is:  "Its true because its the truth".   I can't live my life that way.



whats it take for anything to be truth to you?


----------



## Big Texun (Aug 5, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> What you are saying here is:  "Its true because its the truth".   I can't live my life that way.



You know, "It is true because its the truth" is strangely an accurate description... at least, for me.

Something has to first cause you to truly open your heart and mind to the fact that it is, or, at the very least, could indeed be true (careful, that is easier said than done). When you've done that,  and only after you've done that I believe, will He fill your spirit with the all-knowing faith that "it is true." Things that before seemed ludicrous, now start to make sense. Its as if scales have been removed from your eyes. It doesn't happen all at once... but, it does happen.

You will never find it through your own understanding. If you could, it wouldn't require faith. Faith is the only thing that is required.

You say "I can't live my life that way." I say, after you've found it, you can't live your life any other way.

In the meantime, I wish you well in your search for understanding.

Your Friend,
Big Tex


----------



## pnome (Aug 5, 2008)

redwards said:


> That is where true truth really hits home.
> There is not a one of us on this earth, barring the sudden and unexpected return of The Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, who will escape that reality of truth.
> One day we shall, each and everyone of us, draw our last breath of air on this earth. At that moment there is only one true question which remains. “What then?”
> <o></o>



That's a question that drives us all.   I do not have faith.  I have only what my brain tells me.  From the information I have now, the answer is "nothing."  I will admit my information is incomplete.  I am uncertain.  

I don't claim to know all the ins and outs of quantum physics either, but I understand the basic concept off the Uncertainty principle.  I bring it up to illustrate that even the existence of what we think are physical things in our natural world are uncertain.   

In this universe we must make decisions.  Decisions with incomplete information.  Some of the information we have access to is also false information.  So, we have to decide how to tell the reliable information from the false.  To do this we develop strategies.  Religion is one such strategy.  Science (reasoned inquiry) is another.   On the one hand you have Science, which can be basically boiled down to "accept nothing as true without proof" and on the other hand you have Religion: "accept this one truth and no other"

I choose the former.

Oh, and enjoy the book I sent you.     It's not so much an argument against God, as an argument against "Religion"


----------



## farmasis (Aug 5, 2008)

pnome said:


> That's a question that drives us all. I do not have faith. I have only what my brain tells me. From the information I have now, the answer is "nothing." I will admit my information is incomplete. I am uncertain.


 
What about Pascal's wager? Sounds like you might want to take advantage of that.


----------



## redwards (Aug 5, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> What you are saying here is: "Its true because its the truth". I can't live my life that way.


You may state it that way if you choose. I choose to state that "it is the truth because it is God's word and God is Truth."
And I don't mean to imply that you or anyone else should live life that way. I am only stating that is how I live mine. It is your choice to live your life.


----------



## redwards (Aug 5, 2008)

pnome said:


> That's a question that drives us all. I do not have faith. I have only what my brain tells me. From the information I have now, the answer is "nothing." I will admit my information is incomplete. I am uncertain.
> 
> I don't claim to know all the ins and outs of quantum physics either, but I understand the basic concept off the Uncertainty principle. I bring it up to illustrate that even the existence of what we think are physical things in our natural world are uncertain.
> 
> ...


I understand what you are saying. I have my own questions about lots of things. It is that faith that God has planted in my soul that gets me through those questions.
I am looking forward to getting the books so I can read them.


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 6, 2008)

z71gacowboy said:


> Jesus said let your doubt increase your faith.....in other words if you doubt...dont just sit there in doubt seek out God and the truth and the word says if you knock the door will be opened if you seek you will find.
> 
> doubting is healthy...i had an athiest friend in high school, and he had doubt in his atheism but since you dont believe in God there is a stumbling block of "i dont believe in it so theres nothing to seek out if i doubt, because i dont believe" and he never sought anything to ease his doubt in atheism because of this. he grew up in india as hindu faith then to atheism. Ive studied many other religions academically..even during a time when I wasnt walking with God in the faith..but none ever showed truth.
> 
> Im not knocking anyone who chooses to believe nothing, but when I doubt things I seek to find an answer because its in my nature to want to know the truth. And Im sold with all the real truth in the word of the one true God. The word of God is sharper than any two edge sword, splitting bone and marrow, soul and spirit and discerning the truth from the lies. There are lots of things historically and scientifically in the bible that werent popularly accepted till thousands of years later.........that actually says alot in my eyes, that the truth was there in the word first but people didnt acknowledge it and even when it was accepted God wasnt given the credit for revealing this information to man.




I really agree with your thought's.  Doubt is a great tool in the life of a Christian.  Faith grows faster immediately after
a period of doubt.

Things like:  death of a young child.  auto accident leaves child in vegatative state.  Often, there's a period of wondering, or doubting.  But afterward, greater faith than before.  I am never alarmed when a Christian doublts.  It makes them stronger.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Aug 6, 2008)

I have actually taken 3 classes in college(years ago) that dealt a lot with quantum mechanics, Schrödinger equation and the dreaded "Heisenberg uncertainty principle". The classes where named: Physical Chemistry 1, 2 & 3, we referred to them PChem. That was the first time I had ever had a class that combined Calculus, Physics and Chemistry to try to explain Quantum Mechanics. The absolutely hardest 3 classes I have ever taken in my life. I was proud of my C in all three classes. You know it is bad when they stop using the English alphabet and start using the Greek, upper and lower case, because they have run out of symbols to use. We became very good friends with the "Particle in a Box," so good that by the end of the 3rd class we where drawing diagrams on the board of the "Particle digging its way out of the box," that is how much we all disliked PChem.

I will also admit that since those 3 classes I think I might have thought about Quantum Mechanics, maybe 2 times. I have never used any of the information that I learned. And you won't use any of it unless you go into theoretical chemistry/physics/math. Or possibly study "Super String Theory." Thank You God, that You did not see fit to put me in that field of work.

The professors that taught these classes were absolutely brilliant, one I know was a Christian and said numerous times that he could actually see God in the math. At the time I wasn't very interested in God, don't get me wrong I was a Christian and God had Saved me, but I will admit I was in a backsliden state. Looking back now though I can see God in my life, I can see the dangers He kept me from.

The other professor was equally as brilliant as the first one I mentioned. This will tell you the type of guy he was. During one of his advisement times with my best friend, he kept having to open and close cabinet doors and by the 4th time of having to reach into his cabinets he said, "hold on a sec" and he got his calculator out and within probably a minute he had calculated how much time he had wasted opening and closing his cabinets. So the cabinet doors came off the next day.  We later found out, from a fellow professor that the same PChem professor, had  taken off all the doors of all of his cabinets at home. Yeah I would say he was Brilliant, but I would also say that he was boarderline crazy. He was also a self professed athiest.

Just thought I would share my experience...
DB BB


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## jmharris23 (Aug 6, 2008)

I think those who call themselves atheists or agnostics have either been confronted with the truth of Christ by His Spirit and rejected that truth or they have yet to be confronted. 

It is not up to me to convince anyone of their need to give their life to Christ, rather it is for me to live in such a way and take a stand on certain things, so that when those who argue against God see my life, they will at least wonder if perhaps they've missed something.

My life should also be a door that allows me to speak to others about God. If I am in no way different that they, I have no right to confront them with God.

One of our biggest problems is that we as American Christians have failed miserably as a group to live out that different life in front of those who do not know God. 

When they see that their life and our lives are basically the same and that we react and respond to troubles and trials the same way they do, then there is no reason for them to even consider if maybe life could be different. 

I'm not as smart as most of the people in here, but I know what I believe, and I know who I believe. My faith cannot be shattered, although my world may be rocked. 

I will stand for and with Christ to my dying day, and if I somehow were wrong in my belief, then bless my soul for being the blind faithful idiot that I have become.

Paul said the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing. I see that ringing loud and clear in the world(and in this forum) every day.

One day we will see who in this very place was foolish and who was brilliant. Until then, for those who believe, live the life God has called you to live, and let Him sort out the details.


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## Double Barrel BB (Aug 6, 2008)

jmharris23 said:


> I think those who call themselves atheists or agnostics have either been confronted with the truth of Christ by His Spirit and rejected that truth or they have yet to be confronted.
> 
> It is not up to me to convince anyone of their need to give their life to Christ, rather it is for me to live in such a way and take a stand on certain things, so that when those who argue against God see my life, they will at least wonder if perhaps they've missed something.
> 
> ...


 


*AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## ambush80 (Aug 6, 2008)

redwards said:


> And I don't mean to imply that you or anyone else should live life that way. I am only stating that is how I live mine. It is your choice to live your life.




Now you're making sense to me.  Bring that attitude to every thing you do and every one you meet and we all will get along fine.



Ronnie T said:


> I really agree with your thought's.  Doubt is a great tool in the life of a Christian.  Faith grows faster immediately after
> a period of doubt.
> 
> Things like:  death of a young child.  auto accident leaves child in vegatative state.



Or it moves one to believe in the justice of randomness.  



jmharris23 said:


> I think those who call themselves atheists or agnostics have either been confronted with the truth of Christ by His Spirit and rejected that truth or they have yet to be confronted.
> 
> It is not up to me to convince anyone of their need to give their life to Christ, rather it is for me to live in such a way and take a stand on certain things, so that when those who argue against God see my life, they will at least wonder if perhaps they've missed something.
> 
> ...



It's not about being smart or intelligent (for me anyway).   It's about coming to grips with the way the world works.  I agree completely with what you say about my perceptions of Christians.  Most of the time it made them better people,  sometimes it made them worse, much worse.


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## crackerdave (Aug 6, 2008)

That's very true,about us not setting a very good example as Christians.I know I'm guilty there sometimes,and I ask for forgiveness from God AND those who I've offended.


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