# Purpose for believing?



## Artfuldodger (Dec 21, 2016)

Does one become a Christian to save their own soul from eternal death or to glorify God?

Would it be selfish to believe just to save your own soul from eternal death?

Would it be selfish to believe in order to get  protection from God as an individual, family, or nation?

That's a lot of power when you think about it. If one in fact possesses that power. 

Maybe God does give us that power. Perhaps he says "believe and I will provide everlasting life." Isn't that what John 3:16 says?

Am I being selfish if I want everlasting life? Can I do it for both reasons? To glorify God and to save my on soul?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 21, 2016)

I'm just having one of those weird thought processes.

Is my reason for believing to escape eternal death and is it selfish of me for believing? I know God wants me to believe so maybe he allows this one bit of selfishness so that it glorifies him some way.


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## formula1 (Dec 22, 2016)

*re:*

It cannot be selfish if God wanted you to have it!!! Freely!!!

It can only be selfish when one willfully withholds such a precious gift from others!

Proverbs 11:24
One gives freely, yet grows all the richer; another withholds what he should give, and only suffers want.


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## centerpin fan (Dec 22, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Does one become a Christian to save their own soul from eternal death or to glorify God?



I did it for the chicks.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 22, 2016)

centerpin fan said:


> I did it for the chicks.



That's why I joined 4-H!
There were a lot of girls at Church too. Maybe that was just one of those blessings received for believing.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 22, 2016)

formula1 said:


> It cannot be selfish if God wanted you to have it!!! Freely!!!
> 
> It can only be selfish when one willfully withholds such a precious gift from others!
> 
> ...



Good point, thanks.


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## welderguy (Dec 22, 2016)

The ability to believe is neither given nor witholden by man, but is rather the gift of God.

Philippians 1:29
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;


This gift is given to those that God purposed to give it before the foundation of the world.(not based on any works of man)

Acts 13:48
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.


The world cannot believe.It requires faith, which is also a gift from God.

John 14:17
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Many get angry about this doctrine,but Jesus makes a clear distinction between those the Father gave Him and those He did not.

John 17:9
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.


question:
Why, if it was of man's freewill to believe, didn't Jesus pray that these of the "world" would believe?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 22, 2016)

John 17:9
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

So my question is perhaps not viable. One can't believe to save his own soul(fear). One can't believe to honor God(love).

One can only believe as a result of grace.

                                                                                                                                       I'll bet their are many folks that believe out of fear. They fear eternal death and want everlasting life. I'm not saying they can attain salvation based on this fear but I'm pretty sure they believe because of fear.

Then in all actuality, there is no reason to believe.


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## welderguy (Dec 22, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> John 17:9
> 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
> 
> So my question is perhaps not viable. One can't believe to save his own soul(fear). One can't believe to honor God(love).
> ...



We cannot save ourselves eternally...no way, no how.

But,once we have been made alive by the Holy Spirit, we have belief placed within us. We are admonished to add to that faith and produce fruit.

Peter says it best:

2 Pet.1:5-11

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 22, 2016)

Should we live with the assumption that God has elected or will elect our Children?

Would it be wrong for me to wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my children, my own flesh and blood?

Borrowed from Romans 9:3

I would willingly trade my election for the salvation of my children. Yet that in itself is a work of man that I know can't happen.

It seems to appear though that God usually elects the children of the Elect.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 22, 2016)

I'm pretty sure that I started believing out of fear. I grew up where the preacher said believe or die. 
I'm hoping that now I believe out of love yet I still do want to live an eternal life.  So in a sense, I still believe out of fear.

Perhaps somewhere within this process I was elected to believe or started believing later with a real revealing by the Holy Spirit.

The mystery would be if I believed through election if I was Hindu. Regardless I feel that God is better at revealing than I am.

I'm glad that all who are chosen will respond.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 22, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Should we live with the assumption that God has elected or will elect our Children?
> 
> Would it be wrong for me to wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my children, my own flesh and blood?
> 
> ...


 Paul would have never said this if he believed in he11. Thought for the day


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 22, 2016)

1gr8bldr said:


> Paul would have never said this if he believed in he11. Thought for the day



I don't believe that eternal punishment is everlasting fire but death. Separation from God by death instead of everlasting life.
Why would it matter though if one could take the place for his children or countrymen? I'd still take my place in eternal fire for my children. Are you saying Paul wouldn't for his countrymen if he thought it meant eternal punishment in flames?


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## welderguy (Dec 23, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm pretty sure that I started believing out of fear. I grew up where the preacher said believe or die.
> I'm hoping that now I believe out of love yet I still do want to live an eternal life.  So in a sense, I still believe out of fear.



1 John 4:18-19

18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

19 We love him, because he first loved us.


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## hummerpoo (Dec 23, 2016)

centerpin fan said:


> I did it for the chicks.



Occasionally, although rarely, I think I have glimpsed a dim view of God’s work within His creation.
I hold no hope of the same for the inner workings of your mind;
which diminishes the enjoyment not one whit.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 23, 2016)

welderguy said:


> 1 John 4:18-19
> 
> 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
> 
> 19 We love him, because he first loved us.



Please explain adding verse 17;

This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus.

"whoever fears has not been perfected in love."

I'll put this scripture in my "fear" thread.

What Paul was fearing was eternal death/punishment for his kinsmen, not himself. Had his love not been perfected yet? 
Like Paul, I fear God hasn't elected my daughters yet. Even with enough love from God I must accept that he might not elect them. 

Seeing how most Election believers children have also been elected does concern me a little though. It could be construed as fear. At the least worry.

Think about it. Your ancestors have been going to this particular Primitive Baptist Church for 100 years. Your parents go there and it appears they have been elected. You go there and it appears you have been elected. It appears your children haven't.

Knowing that God elects Hindus that have never heard the Word, you begin to wonder why he hasn't elected your own children who have. Knowing that generations of your family have been elected, you start to wonder why your children will break the cycle. 

Paul was so elated with his election that he wished he could give it up so that his kinsmen could have it.


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## welderguy (Dec 23, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Please explain adding verse 17;
> 
> This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus.
> 
> "whoever fears has not been perfected in love."



Notice how the love of God is revealed to us in this text:

Romans 5:5

5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

When we lean on this hope,(which is an anchor), we are far less prone to fear.


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## hummerpoo (Dec 23, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Think about it. Your ancestors have been going to this particular Primitive Baptist Church for 100 years. Your parents go there and it appears they have been elected. You go there and it appears you have been elected. It appears your children haven't.
> 
> Knowing that God elects Hindus that have never heard the Word, you begin to wonder why he hasn't elected your own children who have. Knowing that generations of your family have been elected, you start to wonder why your children will break the cycle.



You might ask yourself how "appearing" became "knowing".  I'm thinking there is something there that will shed light.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 23, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> You might ask yourself how "appearing" became "knowing".  I'm thinking there is something there that will shed light.



I used appearing instead of knowing because I don't the fate of every man. 
So if I know that my grandmother was elected, my mother was elected, and myself was elected, yet doubt that my daughter is or it appears that she isn't?

The way election works is by God's grace and that grace alone. There is no rhyme or reason that man can come up with as to who God elects. It's not based on works. This would mean that God doesn't elect generations of the same family that go to the same Primitive Baptist Church. This means that he elects Hindus and islanders who have never heard the Gospel. There is no rhyme or reason for me to believe God would elect my children over the Hindu child just because generations of my family have gone to a certain Church or no church.

Regardless, I can't open my daughter's eyes any easier than I can open the eyes of a Hindu. This can only be done by God. It just appears to me that God elects more generations of Primitive Baptist than he does Hindus.

I've seen more Primitive Baptist with fruit of the Spirit than I have Hindus with fruit of the Spirit. Yet we know that God elected before time and not by works.
So the works of going to the Primitive Baptist Church for generations worked out for them as they got to see their children elected. It didn't workout for the Hindu equally. Yet works don't matter when it comes to election.


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## Mr Mac (Dec 23, 2016)

Promises from God;

Isaiah 54:13-17 (ESV)
_13 All your children shall be taught by the Lord, and great shall be the peace of your children. 14 In righteousness you shall be established; you shall be far from oppression, for you shall not fear; and from terror, for it shall not come near you. 15 If anyone stirs up strife, it is not from me; whoever stirs up strife with you shall fall because of you. 16 Behold, I have created the smith who blows the fire of coals and produces a weapon for its purpose. I have also created the ravager to destroy; 17 no weapon that is fashioned against you shall succeed, and you shall refute every tongue that rises against you in judgment. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord and their vindication[e] from me, declares the Lord.”_

This is one of those promises from God (along with Jeremiah 31:16 & 17 (ESV) _16 Thus says the Lord: “Keep your voice from weeping, and your eyes from tears, for there is a reward for your work, declares the Lord, and they shall come back from the land of the enemy. 17 There is hope for your future, declares the Lord, and your children shall come back to their own country._) that we hold on to a pray over our children daily.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 23, 2016)

I can also assume, because it appears, that God is electing less folks these days. Realizing that he elected before time and that those elected were not chosen by works or their future works. God didn't look ahead to this generation and say, "these people are more sinful than the past generation so I'm going to pre-elect less of them."
Why do we know that? Because God doesn't use works as a basis for election. We just have to assume that as time progresses towards Judgement Day he will elect less people. 

We aren't controlling when Jesus will return by increasing sin. God already knows when Jesus will return. If there will be less Christians as we progress towards Judgment Day, it's because God is electing less, not because of man's increasing sin.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 23, 2016)

Mr Mac said:


> Promises from God;
> 
> Isaiah 54:13-17 (ESV)
> _13 All your children shall be taught by the Lord, and great shall be the peace of your children. 14 In righteousness you shall be established; you shall be far from oppression, for you shall not fear; and from terror, for it shall not come near you. 15 If anyone stirs up strife, it is not from me; whoever stirs up strife with you shall fall because of you. 16 Behold, I have created the smith who blows the fire of coals and produces a weapon for its purpose. I have also created the ravager to destroy; 17 no weapon that is fashioned against you shall succeed, and you shall refute every tongue that rises against you in judgment. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord and their vindication[e] from me, declares the Lord.”_
> ...



What are your feelings on how this relates to our purpose for believing?


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## Mr Mac (Dec 23, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> What are your feelings on how this relates to our purpose for believing?



Ezekial 36:26-28 (ESV)
_26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. 28 You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God._

Being one of God's elect, I am sure of my salvation.  I fully believe the greatest commandment is to love Him with all that I am, as well as fulfill the commission I am charged with to make disciples of the nations.  All of this, as stated before, not because I love Him, but because He loved me first.  My purpose for believing is to serve Him and love Him, period.  I cannot say this is a feeling, it is, for me, merely a fact.

I too was raised with the 'fear of God' being the main reason for my becoming a Christian.  Now that I am more mature, I know this was wrong thinking and teaching.  The Gospel of Jesus, is one of love, not fear.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 23, 2016)

Mr Mac said:


> Ezekial 36:26-28 (ESV)
> _26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. 28 You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God._
> 
> Being one of God's elect, I am sure of my salvation.  I fully believe the greatest commandment is to love Him with all that I am, as well as fulfill the commission I am charged with to make disciples of the nations.  All of this, as stated before, not because I love Him, but because He loved me first.  My purpose for believing is to serve Him and love Him, period.  I cannot say this is a feeling, it is, for me, merely a fact.
> ...



Thanks for sharing your views. I think that is part of what I was trying to convey. Something along the lines of God loving us first, and then we loving him in return. That instead of "Believe and love me or you will burn forever and ever." I have heard some people say they saw no reason to become a Christian if there was no He!!. That the gift of eternal life with God wasn't reason enough. That it had to be from fear of eternal death. In other words to some people, salvation is from fear instead of love. It's more of fear from eternal punishment than the love of eternal life.
Your input shows that maybe it's fear to begin with but as God's love enters us, we begin to believe out of love and rid ourselves of that belief out of fear.

Maybe another way of putting it is "what is salvation's purpose?"


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## welderguy (Dec 23, 2016)

Art, I assure you, the primitive baptists don't have a monopoly on election in any way. It doesn't work that way. You have a backwards way of looking at election if you think this way brother.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 23, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Art, I assure you, the primitive baptists don't have a monopoly on election in any way. It doesn't work that way. You have a backwards way of looking at election if you think this way brother.



I'm sorry if I appeared that way. I was just using that denomination as I have family that went to a Primitive Baptist Church. I was just using it as an example.

Arnie Church

Many of the pioneer citizens of Coffee County were believers in Primitive Baptist doctrine. They had churches in many places in South Georgia and some in Coffee County. One of the oldest churches in Coffee County is Arnie Church. It is situated about ten miles southwest of Douglas. This church was organized about 1886 by Elder Mobley and others. Elder King was one of the first pastors of that church.

Elder King was my ancestor. 


I know full well that they don't have a monopoly because 
God's election isn't based on works. That was the point I was making.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 23, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't believe that eternal punishment is everlasting fire but death. Separation from God by death instead of everlasting life.
> Why would it matter though if one could take the place for his children or countrymen? I'd still take my place in eternal fire for my children. Are you saying Paul wouldn't for his countrymen if he thought it meant eternal punishment in flames?


LOL, I erased a long post. Hypotheticals are hard to discuss


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 23, 2016)

1gr8bldr said:


> LOL, I erased a long post. Hypotheticals are hard to discuss



I've did that before and right before hitting submit I delete it.


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## Israel (Dec 26, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Does one become a Christian to save their own soul from eternal death or to glorify God?
> 
> Would it be selfish to believe just to save your own soul from eternal death?
> 
> ...


Are you able to hear anything funny in this question?

...no...not that question...but this one:

"Why am I a created thing?"


Do I reach too far in that? Is there a subtlety to it that is lost on all but me? For, to me, it is not subtle at all. But I am also the man who once said in complete earnestness "God gets all my jokes". 

Now, it could seem a man like me is trying so hard to be an "insider" to even think anything about me is subtle, to even mention anything about it...for the wise among you have already said "This guy is an open book in every way, striving so hard to look like he knows anything! He's the guy who thinks he knows, but doesn't know as he aught!"


How perfect! The guy who thinks he has "inside info" that causes him to boldly approach a thing he thinks he knows so very very well, even by Name...and there propelled by such boldness, as boldness to _even _speak in that Presence (as though he knew something!)...and all to an end that the Name might show him...he knows nothing at all about that which he speaks! (now, how_ inside _is that joke?) 

I think it could be so perfect to say "Obviously, this guy can't do a thing to help himself".

If I speak of eternal hilarity, that is, that the joke_ at the first, seems_ always "on me"...but that the perfect, pure, and resounding laughter is so very joyous, so very wonderful to hear as to remove all shame and, dare I say it...doubt about the good nature of the Chief Laugher...who could believe such a man?

(Really...Lord, you can take that and _use_ it?) 

A brother once said: 
For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.

Didja hear the one about the man who heard Jesus speak?
"Thou shalt love the Lord with your whole heart and soul and mind and strength"

You know what he said?
"OK, Jesus, I'll take that to heart and get back with you when I am done doing it"


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## Israel (Dec 26, 2016)

Israel said:


> Are you able to hear anything funny in this question?
> 
> ...no...not that question...but this one:
> 
> ...




Since I can't help myself...here's an even funnier follow up.


> "OK, Jesus, I'll take that to heart and get back with you when I am done doing it"



"And then you can tell me what to do next after that..."


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