# Style or Substance?  What is the biggest problem with Contemporary Church Music



## rjcruiser (Aug 20, 2008)

Style or Substance

(By John MacArthur)

What’s the Biggest Problem with Contemporary Church Music?

It should be clear to anyone who examines the subject carefully that modern church music, as a rule, is vastly inferior to the classic hymns that were being written 200 years ago.

And incidentally, my own assessment is that the style in which music is written today isn’t really the biggest problem with contemporary music. Styles change. Bad church music isn’t bad just because it is “contemporary.” But the content of the lyrics is what reveals most graphically how low our standards have slipped.

This is not a problem that arose with the current generation. It dates back to an era whose musical style would seem quite old-fashioned by anyone’s standards today.

Before the middle part of the 19th century or so, hymns were wonderful didactic tools, filled with Scripture and sound doctrine, a medium for teaching and admonishing one another, as we are commanded in Colossians 3:16. Most hymns were written not by teenagers with guitars, but by pastors and theologians: Charles Wesley, Augustus Toplady, Isaac Watts.

Consider the profound content of this hymn about God’s attributes, written by Walter C. Smith in the 1800s:

Immortal, invisible
Immortal, invisible, God only wise,
In light inaccessible hid from our eyes,
Most blessed, most glorious, the Ancient of Days,
Almighty, victorious, Thy great Name we praise.

Unresting, unhasting, and silent as light,
Nor wanting, nor wasting, Thou rulest in might;
Thy justice, like mountains, high soaring above
Thy clouds, which are fountains of goodness and love.

To all, life Thou givest, to both great and small;
In all life Thou livest, the true life of all;
We blossom and flourish as leaves on the tree,
And wither and perish—but naught changeth Thee.

Great Father of glory, pure Father of light,
Thine angels adore Thee, all veiling their sight;
But of all Thy rich graces this grace, Lord, impart
Take the veil from our faces, the vile from our heart.

All laud we would render; O help us to see
‘Tis only the splendor of light hideth Thee,
And so let Thy glory, Almighty, impart,
Through Christ in His story, Thy Christ to the heart.

Around the start of the twentieth century, however, church music took a different direction. Musicians and singers without formal pastoral or theological training (such as Ira Sankey and Philip Bliss) became the dominant songwriters in the church. Choruses with lighter, simpler subject matter proliferated. Popular Christian music became more subjective. Songs focused on personal experience and the feelings of the worshiper. The newer compositions were often called “gospel songs” to distinguish them from “hymns.”

Consider this familiar chorus, written in 1912 by C. Austin Miles:

In the Garden
I come to the garden alone
While the dew is still on the roses
And the voice I hear falling on my ear
The Son of God discloses.

And He walks with me, and He talks with me,
And He tells me I am His own;
And the joy we share as we tarry there,
None other has ever known.

He speaks, and the sound of His voice,
Is so sweet the birds hush their singing,
And the melody that He gave to me
Within my heart is ringing.

I’d stay in the garden with Him
Though the night around me be falling,
But He bids me go; through the voice of woe
His voice to me is calling.

Aside from an oblique reference to “the Son of God” in the last line of the first stanza, there’s no distinctly Christian content to that song at all.

“In the Garden” is by no means the only wretched favorite from the gospel-song era, either. “Love Lifted Me” (1912) and “Count Your Blessings” (1897) are two more “gospel songs” without much actual gospel content. If you want to see what thin gruel some of the “oldies” offer by way of actual biblical or doctrinal substance, review almost any random list of favorite old “gospel songs.”

Modern musicians have pushed this trend even further and often see music as little more than a device for stimulating intense emotion. The biblically-mandated didactic role of music is all but forgotten.

The effect is predictable. What we have sown for several generations we are now reaping in frightening abundance. The modern church, fed on choruses with insipid lyrics, has no appetite for her own great tradition of didactic hymnody.

We are in danger of losing a rich heritage as some of the best hymns of our faith fall into neglect and disuse, being replaced with banal lyrics set to catchy tunes. Thankfully, there are some wonderful exceptions to this trend — exceptions which we hope will soon turn the tide. In the meantime, our prayer is that both pastors and church musicians will come to realize the severity of the crisis and the vital importance of theologically-sound worship music.



http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/08/17/style-or-substance/#more-1370


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## MLCausey (Aug 20, 2008)

I totally disagree with this viewpoint.  I find contemporary Christian music especially easy to relate to and help to keep me walking the straight and narrow.  I am very selective on what music comes on my radio station as I have a 4 year old and a 2 year old that LOVE music and are very good at learning the songs.  We love to listen to Family Life Radio and I don't have to be afraid of what they will hear.   Now, I know if I turned on some old hymns, although they do have their place, my kids would not hear a word of any of the songs...they don't relate to that.  How can anyone argue "We are in danger of losing a rich heritage as some of the best hymns of our faith fall into neglect and disuse, being replaced with banal lyrics set to catchy tunes. Thankfully, there are some wonderful exceptions to this trend — exceptions which we hope will soon turn the tide. In the meantime, our prayer is that both pastors and church musicians will come to realize the severity of the crisis and the vital importance of theologically-sound worship music."
Especially when we have songs like <embed src="http://www.metrolyrics.com/scroller/scroller2.swf?lyricid=1496457473&border=2&bordert=80&bgfont=0xC0C0C0&bg=http://www.metrolyrics.com/scroller/bgpic/bluedisco.jpg&filter=0x000000&filtert=25&txt=0xFFFFFF&fontname=arial&fontsize=11&speed=2" quality="high" width="180" height="210" name="scroll" align="middle" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" /><br />Big Daddy Weave Lyrics<br />What Life Would Be Like Lyrics</embed>


Seems like the "traditional" type churches don't care about the youth being able to connect to Christ in a way that is easiest for them...they (the church and parents) want to rule with an iron fist that they (the youth) have to believe because their parents' say they have to.  And I'm sorry, I was raised like that, and thankfully I learned to choose why I wanted to believe what I believe.  I think as long as the message of the songs are translated correctly, who are we to say they're any less meaningful because there is a guitar or drums in the music.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 20, 2008)

Spiritual songs and hymns, Biblically speaking are intended to encourage and admonish each other(and self) and praise God.
Some of the contempory Christian songs fall into that catagory but many of them don't.


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## SBG (Aug 20, 2008)

I agree completely with the article-although I was amazed at who the author is.

I prefer the old hymns of the faith and the only time in my life that I had to find a new church home, the use of hymns in the worship service was one of the criteria for the church to be acceptable for my family and I.

Having said that, I have heard some "contemporary" music that was Christ honoring and not inundated with the sound of the modern pop culture.


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## ryano (Aug 20, 2008)

give me that old time gospel like whats printed in the Church Hymnal or the Mulls Singing Convention hymnal over this new age stuff any day. 

and whats up with these headbanger christian rock groups that are more hardcore than any Anthrax, Korn or Pantera type bands out there today? 

I went to Winterfest one year in Gatlinburg and had to leave because of the headache that music gave me.


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## Dogmusher (Aug 20, 2008)

I, too, disagree with the premise.  I'm 2 for 2 disagreeing with Johnny Mac today.

I love some of the old hymns.  I love some of the contemporary stuff.  I dislike some of each as well.  There is no STYLE of music that is right or wrong.

J.S. Bach said, "All music, whether secular or divine, is for the glory of God."

Martin Luther asked, "Why should the devil have all the good music."  It is well known that "A mighty fortress is our God" caused more than a few eyebrows to be raised because the tune was written on a guitar and the melody was a "pop" tune and common melody sung in taverns.

John Calvin was so disappointed in the Church music in Geneva that he hired secular musicians to modernize the stuff.  The queen of England disparagingly referred to the new hymns as  "those awful Geneva Gigs."

The lyrics of some of the music today are as rich and deep as any in history.  But sometimes it's the catchy ditties, rather than the deep songs that draw us to God.  "Majesty, worship His Majesty.  Unto Jesus be all glory honor and praise."  Or how bout this little number, "Jesus loves me this I know. For the Bible tells me so.  Little ones to him belong.  They are weak, but He is strong.  Yes, Jesus loves me..............the Bible tells me so."  And don't tell me you don't love that song as much now as you did when you were six.


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## jmharris23 (Aug 20, 2008)

I love all Johnny Mac for his solid theology and strong bible teaching and preaching. But here is where he and I must go our different paths.


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## PWalls (Aug 20, 2008)

I like them all as long as they are God-honoring. Slow, fast, doesn't matter.

So, I disagree with the author to a point. He really lost me with how he thought "In the Garden" was a terrible song.


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## leroy (Aug 20, 2008)

MLCausey said:


> I totally disagree with this viewpoint.  I find contemporary Christian music especially easy to relate to and help to keep me walking the straight and narrow.  I am very selective on what music comes on my radio station as I have a 4 year old and a 2 year old that LOVE music and are very good at learning the songs.  We love to listen to Family Life Radio and I don't have to be afraid of what they will hear.   Now, I know if I turned on some old hymns, although they do have their place, my kids would not hear a word of any of the songs...they don't relate to that.  How can anyone argue "We are in danger of losing a rich heritage as some of the best hymns of our faith fall into neglect and disuse, being replaced with banal lyrics set to catchy tunes. Thankfully, there are some wonderful exceptions to this trend — exceptions which we hope will soon turn the tide. In the meantime, our prayer is that both pastors and church musicians will come to realize the severity of the crisis and the vital importance of theologically-sound worship music."
> Especially when we have songs like <embed src="http://www.metrolyrics.com/scroller/scroller2.swf?lyricid=1496457473&border=2&bordert=80&bgfont=0xC0C0C0&bg=http://www.metrolyrics.com/scroller/bgpic/bluedisco.jpg&filter=0x000000&filtert=25&txt=0xFFFFFF&fontname=arial&fontsize=11&speed=2" quality="high" width="180" height="210" name="scroll" align="middle" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" /><br />Big Daddy Weave Lyrics<br />What Life Would Be Like Lyrics</embed>
> 
> 
> Seems like the "traditional" type churches don't care about the youth being able to connect to Christ in a way that is easiest for them...they (the church and parents) want to rule with an iron fist that they (the youth) have to believe because their parents' say they have to.  And I'm sorry, I was raised like that, and thankfully I learned to choose why I wanted to believe what I believe.  I think as long as the message of the songs are translated correctly, who are we to say they're any less meaningful because there is a guitar or drums in the music.



Good post. I like both but like the contemperary better also love groups like Mercy Me, Big Daddy Weave, Newsong, etc. I went to winter xtreme last year didnt care for some of the groups but the kids did and if you look at the lyrics, I did because i was concerned,   and they praised God so if that is the case then I see no problem. Some of the seniors in our church almost croaked when we added a praise team with drums and guitars


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## PWalls (Aug 20, 2008)

Love that song and listening to him sing it. Had it as my "church group" ring tone last year on that phone.

Lots of people have sung that song, but he is the master at it.


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## ratlird (Aug 21, 2008)

I guess I'm what they call a dyed in the wool Baptist traditionalist because I prefer the traditional music. I've tried several of the churches in my area since moving here and just don't care for the feeling of being at a rock concert where the music is so loud you get a headache. With that said, when not in church I listen to southern gospel mostly but do like some of the praise and worship music that came about around the time Promise Keepers started. I think that if the music is presented in a peaceful joyful manner it is good but I do have a problem with the heavy metal christian music. I also feel that is a lot of cases that some churches are simply using this new music as a means of attracting the younger generation which is wrong, but when the older people start to feel like they are being pushed out then it is wrong. I'm just happy that some churches still offer both services to satisfy everyone. The most important thing is that the service and preaching is biblical.


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## crackerdave (Aug 21, 2008)

I agree - there is nothing wrong with a "rock" version of the Gospel.Only when kids start worshiping the players does it become wrong,and I think in some cases that's what happens.
I myself don't care for contemporary churches or music,but I'm an OLD geezer.


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## SBG (Aug 21, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Love that song and listening to him sing it. Had it as my "church group" ring tone last year on that phone.
> 
> Lots of people have sung that song, but he is the master at it.



It is a beautiful song. I had never heard it until President Reagan's funeral.


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## Double Barrel BB (Aug 21, 2008)

The problem I think with Contempory Christian music today is that, sometimes you can't tell the difference between it and Secular music...  Also, I have seen people more interested in the group that was singing than the actual words of the music...

I have a 7 and 10 year old that are heavily influenced by music, and I want them to grow up and have a deep respect for the traditional songs, because it is really hard to miss the meaning in those songs where it is very easy to get caught up in the beat of the other music and not actually listen to the words.

I don't mind listening to some contempory chrisitan music, but I think it has its place, and I believe it has no place during the worship service... Just my 2 cents.

DB BB


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## Jeffriesw (Aug 21, 2008)

I prefer the traditional hymns during worship at church, But I do like to listen to some of the comtemporary music at home or in the truck, Mercy Me, Newsboys, Jars of Clay, etc.. 
I don't like the heavy stuff wether is comtemporary or secular, It just gives me a headache anymore.


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## letsgohuntin (Aug 21, 2008)

MLCausey said:


> Seems like the "traditional" type churches don't care about the youth being able to connect to Christ in a way that is easiest for them...they (the church and parents) want to rule with an iron fist that they (the youth) have to believe because their parents' say they have to.  And I'm sorry, I was raised like that, and thankfully I learned to choose why I wanted to believe what I believe.  I think as long as the message of the songs are translated correctly, who are we to say they're any less meaningful because there is a guitar or drums in the music.




Very well said, and my sentiments exactly. 

Like it or not change is going to happen. What was the norm 40 years ago may not be particulary appealing today. It is just amazing to me that everything in our world can change, except the church. It is fine to hold on to tradition, but you have to also realize that change is going to happen. You don't have to participate, but don't brow beat others because of it. 

How can this be a bad thing?
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/wiRq0yh8_t0&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/wiRq0yh8_t0&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


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## letsgohuntin (Aug 21, 2008)

rangerdave said:


> I agree - there is nothing wrong with a "rock" version of the Gospel.Only when kids start worshiping the players does it become wrong,and I think in some cases that's what happens.



Dead On !!


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## HighCotton (Aug 21, 2008)

*Hogwash*

This critique of music in the article contained in the 1st post is all hogwash.

The role of the church is to reach people with the word of God and His love and salvation for them.  HOW this is done can take many different forms.  The goal is to reach the unsaved.

Contemporary worship styles may not appeal to some folks.  Fine.  But that approach does appeal to many that would otherwise choose not to darken the door of an old-style, stuffy coat and tie, traditional church.  Whatever works as long as it's grounded in His word.

Church's that don't reach people for God and grow are pretty much useless to anyone other than their own membership.... which is not what church is suppose to be.


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## Double Barrel BB (Aug 21, 2008)

I did a quick search on You Tube for this, "Christian Heavy Metal", and here is what I found...

In my opinion this is not Christian Music... and I would never allow my children to hear it...

DB BB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZlA5Vahdn8&feature=related


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## SBG (Aug 21, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> I did a quick search on You Tube for this, "Christian Heavy Metal", and here is what I found...
> 
> In my opinion this is not Christian Music... and I would never allow my children to hear it...
> 
> ...



DBBB

I would submit to you that there is obviously a huge difference between "Christian" rock and contemporary. I won't listen to any of it...southern gospel included.


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## Double Barrel BB (Aug 21, 2008)

Maybe I am behind times, but then again, I don't go to Church for the music...

DB BB


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## SBG (Aug 21, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Maybe I am behind times, but then again, I don't go to Church for the music...
> 
> DB BB



Me neither...but the singing of hymns and psalms are an integral part of worship.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 21, 2008)

Well, since I posted the article, I'll add my own 2 cents....and it has been great reading the thoughts that have come from it.

I think that a lot of people who read this article wrote it off based on the title.  Automatically, it was a stuffy old guy who only likes hymns and thinks that drums are from the devil.  That is not what the article said. See the second paragraph.



			
				John MacArthur said:
			
		

> And incidentally, my own assessment is that the style in which music is written today isn’t really the biggest problem with contemporary music. Styles change. Bad church music isn’t bad just because it is “contemporary.” But the content of the lyrics is what reveals most graphically how low our standards have slipped.



Again, like MacArthur, I have no problems with contemporary music.  I actually enjoy a lot of it.  I know that in the student ministries and other sunday school ministries at MacArthur's church, it is very contemporary (drums, electric guitar, bass, keyboard etc etc).  I own my fair share of Christian contemporary music.  Everything from Petra/Audio Adrenaline even DC Talk to Keith Green (one of my favorites).  But I don't think MacArthur is trying to determine what is housed in your CD collection or on your ipod.  He is referencing what is sung on Sunday mornings in the Church.  

Is what song you sing on Sunday Mornings/evenings talking about God?  Is it Biblically sound?  Is it Doctrinally/Theologically sound?  Or is it just a love song that can be sung to the person you like to hang out with on Friday nights?

Again, he is not bashing contemporary music alone..there are hymns (he points them out) that are just as shallow as some of the contemporary music of today.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 21, 2008)

Oh...I'll also give a shameless plug for a CD collection that is great music for kids.  My 3 year old sings the songs and butchers the words, but it is great to hear her sing along.

http://www.seedsmusic.com/


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## letsgohuntin (Aug 21, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Oh...I'll also give a shameless plug for a CD collection that is great music for kids.  My 3 year old sings the songs and butchers the words, but it is great to hear her sing along.
> 
> http://www.seedsmusic.com/



that is great! Thanks for the link!


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## Twenty five ought six (Aug 21, 2008)

*Special for Dick Wintere, calling Dick Winters*



Dick Winters said:


> I'd rather watch bread mold than listen to old time gospel music. I'm not too crazy about the new stuff, either.
> 
> Here is what this old man loves:
> 
> ...



Special for Dick Winters:

If you liked that, you should love this.  This is what it sounds like when an angel sings it:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/n8g6Tqqc6DQ&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/n8g6Tqqc6DQ&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


For an encore, and the non-catholics who refuse to listen to Popish music:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/GNkMq8H-7QY&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/GNkMq8H-7QY&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


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## leroy (Aug 21, 2008)

HighCotton said:


> This critique of music in the article contained in the 1st post is all hogwash.
> 
> The role of the church is to reach people with the word of God and His love and salvation for them.  HOW this is done can take many different forms.  The goal is to reach the unsaved.
> 
> ...



good post! some fight change even if it is for the good. Alot of times just because that is the way it was done for 20,50 yrs.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 22, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> The problem I think with Contempory Christian music today is that, sometimes you can't tell the difference between it and Secular music...



and what, in particular, is wrong with that?  And if I hear the "we are called to be set apart" argument one more time in reference to contemporary worship, I'm gonna toss my cookies.

J-Mac is losing his ever loving mind!  I've read a lot of comments on this thread regarding "I prefer hymns" or "I prefer the new stuff".  Folks there is nothing wrong with preferring hymns in your church.  Absolutely nothing.  That is your decision and, beleive me, they are God honoring songs.

But this movement today that tries to insist that anything written outside of the 17th century is not "proper" worship music is just pure and utter insanity.

Let me tell you something about "The Garden", a song referenced by J-Mac.  He DOES walk with me and you dang well better believe he talks with me and he DOES tell me that I am his own.  And you want to tell me those statements are "disctintly Christian"....I feel really bad for you because you've lost sight of what's important as J-Mac apparently has.

Believe me...the Church has bigger issues to address than the songs sung, and the instruments used.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 22, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> and what, in particular, is wrong with that?  And if I hear the "we are called to be set apart" argument one more time in reference to contemporary worship, I'm gonna toss my cookies.
> 
> J-Mac is losing his ever loving mind!  I've read a lot of comments on this thread regarding "I prefer hymns" or "I prefer the new stuff".  Folks there is nothing wrong with preferring hymns in your church.  Absolutely nothing.  That is your decision and, beleive me, they are God honoring songs.
> 
> ...



Huntinfool,
I think you missed the point of the article.  Dr. Mac is not saying that the problem with contemporary music is its style (ie the instruments).  He is saying that it is the substance (ie it has none).  Sure there is some that does, but a lot doesn't.

This is the key...nothing wrong with music that isn't Bible based.  But what is the problem is saying that you are Bible based and that the music is "Christian" music, and yet it doesn't have anything to do with the Bible or Christianity.  This then furthers the next question.

Why would you want to sing a secular song in a Church service that the whole purpose of the service is to Glorify God?  Leave the drums and the organ out of the discussion.  That isn't the point of the article.


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## Double Barrel BB (Aug 22, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> and what, in particular, is wrong with that? And if I hear the "we are called to be set apart" argument one more time in reference to contemporary worship, I'm gonna toss my cookies.
> 
> J-Mac is losing his ever loving mind! I've read a lot of comments on this thread regarding "I prefer hymns" or "I prefer the new stuff". Folks there is nothing wrong with preferring hymns in your church. Absolutely nothing. That is your decision and, beleive me, they are God honoring songs.
> 
> ...


 

You might as well "Toss your cookies"

Because no matter what people think, Christians are supposed to be a seperate people.

How else are you or anyone else that is a Christian going to set an example.

Was Jesus seperate?

Did He act as the world acts?

If you look and act like the world, what makes you different than the world?

DB BB


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## Huntinfool (Aug 22, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Huntinfool,
> I think you missed the point of the article.  Dr. Mac is not saying that the problem with contemporary music is its style (ie the instruments).  He is saying that it is the substance (ie it has none).  Sure there is some that does, but a lot doesn't.
> 
> This is the key...nothing wrong with music that isn't Bible based.  But what is the problem is saying that you are Bible based and that the music is "Christian" music, and yet it doesn't have anything to do with the Bible or Christianity.  This then furthers the next question.
> ...



RJ...you keep saying I'm missing things.  I think you need to read what I'm saying a little better man.

But he is saying that anybody who listens to contemporary worship music MUST automatically come to the conclusion that it is devoid of meaning or Christian substance.....and that is just not the case.

I'd be interested for folks to post popular Christian contemporary worship songs that they believe are devodi of substance.  I'm guessing you'd have a pretty tough time convincing most of us.

I'm not talking about the drums or the organ.  I brought that in because that is part of some people's complaint.  If I were to add pre-suppose from his writting....my guess is that J-Mac is not a big fan of the drums either.

There IS substance to most of the worship music out there.  Does it all quote scripture letter and verse?  Nope.  Does that make it devoid of Christian substance....it absolutely does not!!


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## Huntinfool (Aug 22, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> If you look and act like the world, what makes you different than the world?



What makes me different?  My heart buddy.  My heart.  My salvation.  It's got nothing to do with what I look like.  Act?  Yeh, I act different in the sense that my actions are (most of the time) driven by what pleases the Lord.

DB BB.....were Hymns "set apart" from other music in the day they were written?

There is nothing in that set apart lingo that has anything to do with they style or type of music played in church.  As I've said before, as long as the message is there....

These statements are I take extreme exception with.  

"It should be clear to anyone who examines the subject carefully that modern church music, as a rule, is vastly inferior to the classic hymns that were being written 200 years ago."

"the severity of the crisis and the vital importance of theologically-sound worship music."

Seriously?  This is a sever crisis in the Christian church?  Seriously?



IMO...we were not "called to be set apart from the world's music".  Find that.  Show it to me and then I will go back to the Wesley brothers.  Otherwise, me and Chris Tomlin are homeboys and I don't really care who likes it or doesn't.  I know I'm worshiping a risen savior when I'm singing that music.


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## farmasis (Aug 22, 2008)

I see a lot of what I call a spirit of pharisee in this forum.
People have problem with the way people worship that is different than the way they do.
Why are we like that?
Just because Saddleback does things different, or the style of Christian music I listen to, or if I go to a men's meeting, or if my wife attends a women's conference ran by women, or if I like another version of the Bible other than a red letter KJV, or a host of other very unimportant things, we make other believers feel inferior to ourselves. We wonder why people are drawn away from these boards, both belivers and unbelievers alike?
Does that honor God?


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## SBG (Aug 22, 2008)

farmasis said:


> I see a lot of what I call a spirit of pharisee in this forum.
> People have problem with the way people worship that is different than the way they do.
> Why are we like that?
> Just because Saddleback does things different, or the style of Christian music I listen to, or if I go to a men's meeting, or if my wife attends a women's conference ran by women, or if I like another version of the Bible other than a red letter KJV, or a host of other very unimportant things, we make other believers feel inferior to ourselves. We wonder why people are drawn away from these boards, both belivers and unbelievers alike?
> Does that honor God?




could it possible be just the opposite and it is actually the Holy Spirit that is doing the convicting?


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## Double Barrel BB (Aug 22, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> What makes me different? My heart buddy. My heart. My salvation. It's got nothing to do with what I look like. Act? Yeh, I act different in the sense that my actions are (most of the time) driven by what pleases the Lord.
> 
> DB BB.....were Hymns "set apart" from other music in the day they were written?
> 
> ...


 

If your actions are drivin to please the Lord, then you don't act like the world. Than you are different from the world... But if the music looks like the world, sounds like the world, then what would the general observer believe?

I am sure the hymns written back when they were written were controversial, but now, can you miss the meaning of the words in the hymns?

I would rather have church with only singing Psalms... But that is just me, and even though I don't consider myself old and set in my ways, some people probably think I am...

As long as the music in the church glorifies God, I really don't have a problem with it... But it is a fine line, because to me(and this is my opinion) it is so easy to get wrapped up in the music, and not listen to the words, not feel them in your heart...

Have you ever questioned someone about the words they sing?  and what they actually mean? I questioned my daughters this morning, while I was taking them to school and we were listening to fish 104.7.(Atlanta Christian Station)... They seemed to be baffled that I even asked them about the words they were singing, but I wanted to make sure they were not just reciting words to be reciting them, but actually understanding what the meaning was behind those words...

I believe the main problem in our churches regarding music today is that it seems to be more about glorifying the singer or musician, than God.

One of the first churches I visited in this area, was a really small church, maybe 50 people there... There was a maybe early 20ish lady playing the piano, and she was playing while they took up the offering, well after the offering was taken up, she proceeded to play what I thought sounded like something *Wladziu Valentino Liberace* would play, just tearing up that piano. Which it sounded great, but was it really glorifying God?  I don't think so...

DB BB


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Aug 22, 2008)

are we talking about modern Christian "worship" songs or modern Christian "pop" songs?

there is definitely a difference and one, at least to me, is of a lot higher quality than the other.  I, for one, can barely stand to listen to most Christian radio, for the fact that most of it is recycled pop music from the Top 40.  There is very little, to me, that is musically interesting or lyrically engaging.  In the forum of the commercial radio or albums, music is supposed to be art and I find a lot of Christian pop to about as artistically lacking as I find Britney Spears.

Worship music, on the other hand, I think is less about the art of making music and more about writing lyrics that express gratitude to God and uplift fellow Christians.  In my opinion, there is a lot of very good worship music being written right now, and in the last 15 years or so.  Groups like Sonic Flood, Deliriou5?, Charlie Hall, Chris Tomlin, Matt Redman, Hillsongs, Lindell Cooley, Andy Park, etc. have all written incredible worship songs that in 100 years will be revered a lot like the old hymns of Fanny Crosby, Horatio Spafford, the Wesley Brothers, or William Cowper, or even the more modern hymns of Bill and Gloria Gaither.  And don't even get me started on Andrae Crouch...


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Aug 22, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> One of the first churches I visited in this area, was a really small church, maybe 50 people there... There was a maybe early 20ish lady playing the piano, and she was playing while they took up the offering, well after the offering was taken up, she proceeded to play what I thought sounded like something *Wladziu Valentino Liberace* would play, just tearing up that piano. Which it sounded great, but was it really glorifying God?  I don't think so...
> 
> DB BB



where did her talent and ability come from?  God.  Therefore she was using her talent to glorify God, celebrating the fact that he had enabled her to play like that.

When Christ healed the lame man in the Bible, from then on every step that man took glorified God.

Also, don't overlook the fact that even Christians have the right to be entertained at times.


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## Double Barrel BB (Aug 22, 2008)

I for one don't want to be entertained when I am in a place of worship... but then again, that is just this old stick in the mud talking...

DB BB


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Aug 22, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> I for one don't want to be entertained when I am in a place of worship... but then again, that is just this old stick in the mud talking...
> 
> DB BB



why did God give us talents if he didnt want us to use them?


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## Huntinfool (Aug 22, 2008)

I just don't understand why people think being entertained in church is a bad thing.  I just don't get that.

Are we afraid that if we have fun at church, God won't be glorified?  I just don't get that.  

To answer the question, "what would the general observer think?"  Here's what they would think.

"Hey, that music is AWESOME!  Maybe church really isn't quite as irrelevant or boring as I THOUGHT it was!  Maybe I should give this whole 'God thing' another shot."

I'm so grateful that hymns or psalms might bring some folks into church.  I really am.  They are wonderful songs and they are a big part of my growing up years and I'll love them forever.  But the new worship music is just as good....just as powerful to me.

I think my bigger issue here is the resistance of "traditional" church to "new" church.  Traditional falsely assumes that new is not real and the is a false assumption.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 22, 2008)

God sent His Son,    they called Him Jesus.   He came to love,

heal, and for give.   He live and died  to buy my par don.

An empty grave is there to prove my Savior lives.  

Because He live  I can face tomorrow.  Because He lives all fear is 

gone;  Because I know, He holds the future.  And life is worth the 

the living just because He lives.

Be honest!  Now don't you feel better after singing that song?

Thank God for the gift of singing.  I don't want anyone to sing it to me.  I'm selfish.  It is my heart that needs to shout it out.


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## Double Barrel BB (Aug 22, 2008)

Using them to Glorify God is one thing, using them to glorify self is totally different... I guess the person using the talent is the only one that will ever really know...

DB BB


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Aug 22, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Using them to Glorify God is one thing, using them to glorify self is totally different... I guess the person using the talent is the only one that will ever really know...
> 
> DB BB



If a person is singing with the voice that God gave them, then God will always be glorified by that singing, because without him none of it would be possible.  I don't care if you are listening to Faith Hill sing something, we all have to marvel at what God is able to accomplish with flawed human beings.


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## Double Barrel BB (Aug 22, 2008)

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> we all have to marvel at what God is able to accomplish with flawed human beings.


 
I agree with that.

DB BB


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## SBG (Aug 22, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Using them to Glorify God is one thing, using them to glorify self is totally different... I guess the person using the talent is the only one that will ever really know...
> 
> DB BB



You are absolutely right on that DB. There are way to many out there that are heaping praise on themselves instead of God. Just because they mention God when screaming and dancing on a stage doesn't make the music Godly. 

I wish we could go back to the days when people sang to glorify and worship God in a service and not a concert.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 22, 2008)

Oh brother!  I've got to stop reading this thread.


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## farmasis (Aug 22, 2008)

SBG said:


> could it possible be just the opposite and it is actually the Holy Spirit that is doing the convicting?


 
I don't think so. Most of the conviction here is from other posters. I don't see those who like contemporary music saying that the old music is not true worship.


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## SBG (Aug 22, 2008)

farmasis said:


> I don't think so. Most of the conviction here is from other posters. I don't see those who like contemporary music saying that the old music is not true worship.



No offense Farm, but your very post implied that if someone doesn't believe like you, then they have the spirit of a pharisee. 

I haven't read one thing that would make someone feel inferior...thus, I wonder if it is Holy Spirit conviction. It seems that the very point you were trying to make was pointing directly back at you.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 22, 2008)

How's this?

_"It should be clear to anyone who examines the subject carefully that modern church music, as a rule, is vastly inferior to the classic hymns"_

or this?

_"Just because they mention God when screaming and dancing on a stage doesn't make the music Godly." _

Both of those make me feel like my style of worship is inferior...



We just all have our different styles.  I'd be interested to here what J-Mac and others would have to say about the worship style in some of the up and coming churches in Africa (which is where Christianity is literally exploding!).  I bet they don't sing hymns with their hands stuffed in their pockets!


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## gtparts (Aug 22, 2008)

Though I do not speak for Dr. MacArthur, I have come to this conclusion concerning church music. Church music serves a myriad of purposes. Everyone does not respond in the same way because on some level specific genres of church music do not resonate with or meet their particular needs at that particular time.

The realization that some music loses it original intent came to Matt Redman some years ago. His solution was simply to suspend music from the worship service until (if ever ) the Holy Spirit gave him permission to re-introduce it. To his mind, neither the intention nor the response was God-honoring (read "worshipful" ). When God gave him the lyrics and music for "Heart of Worship", he knew that that time had come.

"Heart of Worship"



When the music fades 
And all is stripped away 
And I simply come 
Longing just to bring 
Something that's of worth 
That will bless your heart 

I'll bring You more than a song 
For a song in itself 
Is not what You have required 
You search much deeper within 
Through the ways things appear 
You're looking into my heart 

I'm coming back to the heart of worship 
And it's all about You 
All about You, Jesus 
I'm sorry Lord for the thing I've made it 
When it's all about You 
It's all about You Jesus 

King of endless worth 
No one could express 
How much You deserve 
Though I'm weak and poor 
All I have is Yours 
Every single breath 

I'll bring You more than just a song 
For a song in itself 
Is not what You have required 
You search much deeper within 
Through the way things appear 
You're looking into my heart 

I'm coming back to the heart of worship 
And it's all about You 
All about You, Jesus 
I'm sorry Lord for the thing I've made it 
When it's all about You 
It's all about You Jesus 

Its all about you 
Jesus 


So, you see, it is not necessary for you to find pleasure, comfort, a sense of piety or anything else for God to look favorably on an "offering" some one else makes. And who are you to judge the kind and quality of someone elses praise and worship. 

When gathered round the very throne of God, I suspect that we will all be surprised at the various styles of worship and the realization that the songs of praise, though different, are heavenly harmonious.

If you can't abide the worship service for whatever non-biblical reason, I would suggest moving on. Please don't stay in a miserable situation or make others miserable.

And remember, "Its all about you, Jesus."


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## Huntinfool (Aug 22, 2008)

gtparts said:


> If you can't abide the worship service for whatever non-biblical reason, I would suggest moving on. Please don't stay in a miserable situation or make others miserable.
> 
> And remember, "Its all about you, Jesus."



and with that, I officially appoint gtparts to fill in all of my posts from now on.  Excellent post sir.  Excellent.


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## Double Barrel BB (Aug 22, 2008)

I just want to be clear...  I am not judging anyone, I am simply stating what I am observing...

DB BB


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## farmasis (Aug 22, 2008)

SBG said:


> No offense Farm, but your very post implied that if someone doesn't believe like you, then they have the spirit of a pharisee.
> 
> I haven't read one thing that would make someone feel inferior...thus, I wonder if it is Holy Spirit conviction. It seems that the very point you were trying to make was pointing directly back at you.


 

Everything that I quoted was either told to me on here, or read on here. No, no conviction from me at all. There is a lot of if you don't believe like me, you don't have true faith, not really saved, believe watered down religion, etc. To not see it one must be blind. I am not directing this to you or anyone in specific.


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## leroy (Aug 22, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> I just don't understand why people think being entertained in church is a bad thing.  I just don't get that.
> 
> Are we afraid that if we have fun at church, God won't be glorified?  I just don't get that.
> 
> ...



good post!


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## farmasis (Aug 22, 2008)

One of my favorite watered down contemporary gospel songs.

I believe in God the Father
Almighty Maker of Heaven and Maker of Earth
And in Jesus Christ His only begotten Son, our Lord
He was conceived by the Holy Spirit
Born of the virgin Mary
Suffered under Pontius Pilate
He was crucified and dead and buried
Chorus:
And I believe what I believe is what makes me what I am
I did not make it, no it is making me
It is the very truth of God and not the invention of any man
I believe that He who suffered, was crucified, buried, and dead
He descended into he l l---- and on the third day, He rose again
He ascended into Heaven where He sits at God's mighty right hand
I believe that He's returning
To judge the quick and the dead of the sons of men
And I believe what I believe is what makes me what I am
I did not make it, no it is making me
It is the very truth of God and not the invention of any man
I believe it, I believe it
I believe it
Yes, I believe it
Oh, I believe it
I believe in God the Father
Almighty Maker of Heaven and Maker of Earth
And in Jesus Christ His only begotten Son, our Lord
I believe in the Holy Spirit
One Holy Church, the communion of Saints
The forgiveness of sin
I believe in the resurrection
I believe in a life the never ends
And I believe what I believe is what makes me what I am
I did not make it, no it is making me (x3)
It is the very truth of God and not the invention of any man
I believe it, I believe it...

Third Day _Creed_

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## SBG (Aug 23, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> How's this?
> 
> _"It should be clear to anyone who examines the subject carefully that modern church music, as a rule, is vastly inferior to the classic hymns"_
> 
> ...



But those comments weren't made by member on here.


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## MLCausey (Aug 23, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> I just don't understand why people think being entertained in church is a bad thing.  I just don't get that.
> 
> Are we afraid that if we have fun at church, God won't be glorified?  I just don't get that.
> 
> ...




I agree with people having a hard time with having fun in church...however we have a BLAST!  
Some of the more traditional people that come to our church have a hard time accepting our worship because they say it is a production....well HECK YEAH its a production, and we're putting it on for God!   In my mind I can see them looking down on us each sunday and clapping their hands and tapping their feet to our songs. We LAUGH at church *gasp!*  Our pastor makes jokes!  We're not sat down and told we're sinners over and over....our pastor helps us understand that we're all sinners and it's okay.  We have people from all walks of life at our church and they feel welcome.  I had a hard time at first because there were a group of lesbians sitting behind me, then I realized that they NEED to be there!  And I was totally at peace knowing that they feel welcome at our church and are hearing the word of God instead of feeling shunned and drawn away from Christ.
Anyhow, back on topic, we had a sermon series within the last month or so called God on Your iPod.  Our band sang a lot of secular songs and we were to picture them as God or Jesus singing them to us and a lot of them made sense!!!!!!!
A lot of songs, worship or secular, are love songs, and it depends on who we picture singing them to, or singing to us as to how we relate to them!
To each their own, I guess.
I will throw this out there, the lead singer from MercyMe is releasing a CD full of hymns and they played a lot of the radio during the interview with him, and I think a lot of these "hymn only" people would even enjoy it.


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## Music Man (Aug 23, 2008)

What a subject !!

I work with it every week, and it stays on my mind constantly.  I hate that it has become such a devisive issue in so many churches.

Just some random thoughts, and totally my opinion!:

I believe there is room for it all.  Old & new.   We need them both.  

What I must remember is that I must reach people with the Gospel, and music is NOT included in this in many instances.  Music should never be the sole focus.

Pastoral authority in a church (including music) must not be circumvented or breached!

The "classic" hymns (which I love) were at one time "contemporary" to someone (and may have even been rejected!).

I've found myself on many occasions not liking a particular contemporary song (or even a hymn!) until it really dawned on me what the song was speaking to, and then I reflected on what it meant to me personally.  I love a lot of the contemporary music, and use it often in our churches.


As far as glorifying the singer / music style / group, etc over recognizing God as the One to be honored, I've seen folks that follow Teachers, Pastors, Churches, Ministries, etc with just as much abandon as some folks do a singer or group.   It's not right on either account --- the one that does the focusing has the issue, in my opinion (thank you, _American Idol_....).  As a music Minister, my responsibility is to the Lord to lead in a fashion ("traditional" or "contemporary", yadda-yadda) that is pleasing to Him, and to keep the focus on Him (and believe me, my temptation many times is to put the focus on me as I sing a song!).

I am hopeful that we don't become "dumbed-down" (and I'm not saying that all contemporary music dumbs us down), and not be able to draw such powerful scriptural confirmations from the hymns of the past.   The language used in many of those old hymns is so beautiful, and if we are not careful, we will not allow ourselves to be challenged to think!  (and this same argument can be made for our school system's curriculum....but that's another subject!).   Lord, help me to think and dwell on your Word, even through the lyrical content of a song!


Great posts and arguments on both "sides"!


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## jesuslives31548 (Aug 23, 2008)

Oh Boy, I'm fixing to open up a can of Worms. I will keep this simple as possible for me. When we look at generation we have to consider the current trend of music as a way to connect, or better said, to spread the word of Jesus. Kids today conect with groups like Third day, Kutless Mercy me and others due to there close sound with groups such as Three Doors down and others. So here is my take on the music:

If the music brings people to Jesus, Old or new style let the Holy Spirit do his work through it.

The piano has not been around to long, John the Baptist was not walking around singing amazing grace, just as I am or I can only Imagine. Look at the old songs Moses would sing ?? Talking about a vast diffrence from any form we have heard over the last 200 years. 

My thought is I see kids with hands raised, tear's rolling down there eyes with modern worship music.

I see the older generations doing the same with older songs.

Like anything else in life Im sure some modern worship groups may not be in it for the right reason. But we see BIG NAME pastors fall all the time. So who are we to judge.

Bottom line, if it stirs your true Christian Spirit, old or new style let it be. 

Some like fords some likes chevy


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## jmharris23 (Aug 23, 2008)

jesuslives31548 said:


> Oh Boy, I'm fixing to open up a can of Worms. I will keep this simple as possible for me. When we look at generation we have to consider the current trend of music as a way to connect, or better said, to spread the word of Jesus. Kids today conect with groups like Third day, Kutless Mercy me and others due to there close sound with groups such as Three Doors down and others. So here is my take on the music:
> 
> If the music brings people to Jesus, Old or new style let the Holy Spirit do his work through it.
> 
> ...




Man Yeah!


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## MLCausey (Aug 23, 2008)

jesuslives31548 said:


> Oh Boy, I'm fixing to open up a can of Worms. I will keep this simple as possible for me. When we look at generation we have to consider the current trend of music as a way to connect, or better said, to spread the word of Jesus. Kids today conect with groups like Third day, Kutless Mercy me and others due to there close sound with groups such as Three Doors down and others. So here is my take on the music:
> 
> If the music brings people to Jesus, Old or new style let the Holy Spirit do his work through it.
> 
> ...




Couldn't have said that better!  Great post!


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## topcat (Aug 23, 2008)

Thank you for that reply!  Couldn't agree more.

I'm a newbie that has been lurking for a few weeks and was afraid to post on this (or any) thread in this forum due to the devisiveness and attacks I've seen amongst "Christians".  Like one thread said, "it's embarrassing"

The church I attend has two services every Sunday.  Traditional and Contemporary.  I'll be at the Contemporary tomorrow morning.  I grew up in small town MS, and we had no choice but to sing the old hymns.  I am thankful for those 20 plus years in a "traditional" church where I learned much, but I am especially thankful for the past few years here in Memphis at the contemporary service where I feel more connected with the Living Christ and my heart is better prepared for the message/sermon.  

There's an obvious reason for the two separate services.  I also understand that there was a great debate about adding a second worship service before I started attending here.  And it got ugly.  Maybe a good thing I wasn't here, as I might've been turned off and who knows what may have happened?  Kinda like new folks reading this board.


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## jesuslives31548 (Aug 23, 2008)

GOOD for you topcat


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## farmasis (Aug 23, 2008)

Thanks Music man!, you da man, pastor! 

and also Jesuslives for your comments.

I think we fall into the trap when we attend church that it is all about us. It may start that way, when we are immature Christians. But as we mature are we still showing up at church with our hand out trying to get our cup filled? When is it time for us to fill other's cup?

Changing the style of the message it to reach those not otherwised churched. Look at the posts by those on the thread about favorite contemporary songs. Have you seen most of those post on these boards often or at all? That is like the ones that would not normally attend a "traditional" church service. Changing the style should not change the message.

Consider the message of the song featured from the posted article:
Immortal, invisible
Immortal, invisible, God only wise,
In light inaccessible hid from our eyes,
Most blessed, most glorious, the Ancient of Days,
Almighty, victorious, Thy great Name we praise.

Unresting, unhasting, and silent as light,
Nor wanting, nor wasting, Thou rulest in might;
Thy justice, like mountains, high soaring above
Thy clouds, which are fountains of goodness and love.

To all, life Thou givest, to both great and small;
In all life Thou livest, the true life of all;
We blossom and flourish as leaves on the tree,
And wither and perish—but naught changeth Thee.

Great Father of glory, pure Father of light,
Thine angels adore Thee, all veiling their sight;
But of all Thy rich graces this grace, Lord, impart
Take the veil from our faces, the vile from our heart.

All laud we would render; O help us to see
‘Tis only the splendor of light hideth Thee,
And so let Thy glory, Almighty, impart,
Through Christ in His story, Thy Christ to the heart.

To a recent contemporary hit:
From the highest of heights to the depths of the sea
Creation's revealing Your majesty
From the colors of fall to the fragrance of spring
Every creature unique in the song that it sings
All exclaiming
Indescribable, uncontainable,
You placed the stars in the sky and You know them by name.
You are amazing God
All powerful, untamable,
Awestruck we fall to our knees as we humbly proclaim
You are amazing God
Who has told every lightning bolt where it should go
Or seen heavenly storehouses laden with snow
Who imagined the sun and gives source to its light
Yet conceals it to bring us the coolness of night
None can fathom
Indescribable, uncontainable,
You placed the stars in the sky and You know them by name
You are amazing God
All powerful, untamable,
Awestruck we fall to our knees as we humbly proclaim
You are amazing God
You are amazing God
Indescribable, uncontainable,
You placed the stars in the sky and You know them by name.
You are amazing God
All powerful, untamable,
Awestruck we fall to our knees as we humbly proclaim
You are amazing God
Indescribable, uncontainable,
You placed the stars in the sky and You know them by name.
You are amazing God
Incomparable, unchangeable
You see the depths of my heart and You love me the same
You are amazing God
You are amazing God


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## topcat (Aug 23, 2008)

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Here ya go farmasis...


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## L.C (Aug 23, 2008)

One of the biggest moves of God started in the mid to late 90's with a new style of worship that continiues still today.
It has reached a lost generation and still is reaching all over the world. Bands like Passion, Hillsong United,Casting Crown and MercyMe just to name a few, they have gone into the Nations; while old hymns are still good but they have reached the people of their time. You can not put new wine in old wine skins. Jesus said that the tradations of men make the power of God no effect. So be blessed with a new thing.


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## SBG (Aug 24, 2008)

Jer 6:16
Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

Amen!


This passage was the theme for the Summer camp that my kids attend. It was amazing to see and hear hundreds of teenagers standing and singing to the top of their voices "Victory in Jesus" and "When I Survey the Wondrous Cross."


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## Huntinfool (Aug 24, 2008)

SBG said:


> But those comments weren't made by member on here.



They weren't?????

This one was made by YOU!!!!!!! 



SBG said:


> Just because they mention God when screaming and dancing on a stage doesn't make the music Godly.



Check your posting man!!!

God loves my music bro....


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## leroy (Aug 24, 2008)

SBG said:


> Jer 6:16
> Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.
> 
> Amen!
> ...



But its just as amazing to see them singing modern songs such as My Saviour My God, Word of God Speak, Voice of Truth.


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## leroy (Aug 24, 2008)

You see small Churches dying a slow death because there not willing to change anything including music. They are made up of members 50+ yrs old with little or no young people. If you have no younger generation you are a dying Church because they are your future. As has been said over and over in this thread a change in delivery can be a good thing.


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## MLCausey (Aug 24, 2008)

leroy said:


> You see small Churches dying a slow death because there not willing to change anything including music. They are made up of members 50+ yrs old with little or no young people. If you have no younger generation you are a dying Church because they are your future. As has been said over and over in this thread a change in delivery can be a good thing.


We were just talking tonight about this very thing...in our area...Warner Robins, there are 5-6000 kids middle to high school aged and approximately 1000 are churched....1/6 is not good enough for me!  I honestly think that the modern movement in music is the ticket in getting these kids/youth connected!  No, music should not be the only reason we go to church but if we have an avenue to get them there, they more than likely are not going to leave once the pastor starts speaking.  A lot of the times they will be at church for the very first time in their lives!  That's a powerful thing to me...I'm sure they've heard of God but to actually experience hearing him and knowing you can ask him in your heart as easily as praying a prayer can be transforming.
My last church, I was too scared to invite anyone, for fear they would be offended and feel shut out and that's not what church is about.  We should not be condemning in our messages.  Now, I'm not saying that people with their own personal convictions shouldn't be given an understanding of the right way in life....but the way the message is presented can make or break a new believer.
My new church has such an amazing way of presenting the message that I just want to invite EVERYONE I know, because I, myself, have been transformed.  This church has lit a fire within me that makes me desire to know Christ so much better and to actually read my Bible and pray and pass everything on to my kids.  My children have learned so much....my 2 year old will not eat without thanking God every single meal....breakfast, lunch and dinner.  He wanted a 2nd helping tonight at dinner and even prayed when he received his 2nds.
I understand that everyone is going to like something different, but let's just understand that this new age stuff is just as powerful as the old age stuff. For example, today in worship service the band sang:
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/CV7qTD_X0Rk&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/CV7qTD_X0Rk&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
Which comes directly from Matthew 22:36-40


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## Ronnie T (Aug 24, 2008)

Show me a church that uses music to keep the teenagers there and I'll show you a church that loses it's teenagers as soon as they are off to college.  They enjoyed the music but don't like the adult Bible classes.  That stuff is too boring for them.

I see music becoming a very negative force in strengthening the faith of people at church.  Eventually, it seems to become entertainment more than anything else.  Music should never be the primary emphasis at church.


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## farmasis (Aug 24, 2008)

Ronnie, I don't think the music is suppose to keep them there. If anyone is there for anything else than to see Jesus, they will not remain. The music gets them in the door. Then, if Jesus be lifted up, he will draw all men to him. The music gives them the chance to hear the gospel. The music is not the good news, but the music can contain the good news.


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## PWalls (Aug 24, 2008)

I got no problem with singing Victory in Jesus with a piano accompiment or singing Word of God Speak to a guitar. Both move me into a mood and attitude of worship.

I do not go to Church to sing. I go to Church to worship God.

It doesn't matter what songs or styles you present at Church if all the people there are only going to sing them, then those people are in trouble. You go to Church to worship. Of couse you lose teens in College if all they get out of Church is guitar music and drums. The same can be said of older adults if all the get out of Church is piano and pipe organ.

In other words, the "style" of music does not determine the "success" or "depth" of the worship experience. The HEART of the believer does that.


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## MLCausey (Aug 24, 2008)

I debated on responding on Ronnie's post as soon as I saw it, but I wanted to get my thoughts together and I think yall pretty much said what I was thinking.  We've got to remember that if we build a great foundation in the youth once we get them in to church, then it is up to them to choose how to keep growing their relationship with Christ.  Ronnie, I don't know what college you went to, but both colleges I attended had clubs on campus for Christ followers.  They had a house, Wednesday night Bible study, community projects, etc.  So I think you are stereotyping these children/new adults pretty harshly.  Have a little faith in them.  I have seen plenty of our youth go off to college and while I don't know what they are choosing to do when they're at school, I do know that they choose to come home every other weekend and come to church on Sundays.  Actually, a lot of them go to Christian colleges to try and get into the ministry...so SOMETHING is working and I'm willing to bet it's Jesus calling them in.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 24, 2008)

I imagine most of you older Christians have seen what I'm talking about.  It happens throughout most of the churches in my area.  Many of the most enthusiastic teenagers during youth devotions, lock-ins, and special musical groups find it difficult to tranfer than excitement into adult Christianity.
I'm not saying it's wrong to have the music programs.  Goodness no.  I say give them hot dogs, and homemade ice cream.  But pay careful attention to the ones who will seem to disappear as they outgrow the teenage stuff.
I guess you can tell that I have great concerns for the young adults of my area.
I'm not judging any of you people though.
God bless and keep on singing.
It's our one way of worshiping God together.  Allowing our hearts and voices to blend as we praise God.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 24, 2008)

MLCausey said:


> So I think you are stereotyping these children/new adults pretty harshly.  Have a little faith in them.



What is wrong with just starting out with teaching people the Word of God?  Why do you have to use music or other means to "Get them through the door?"  What is wrong with the Bible?  Is it not powerful enough?  I think people need to have a little more faith in the Word of God and the Holy Spirit and its power to convict and save.

Also, in another post, you note that two lesbians were sitting in church behind you and that you wanted to make them feel as comfortable as possible.  How can someone who is in gross obvious sin be comfortable in church?  I'm not saying that you should make them feel uncomfortable, but the Word of God should do that fairly quickly without you doing anything but preaching the Word.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 24, 2008)

leroy said:


> You see small Churches dying a slow death because there not willing to change anything including music. They are made up of members 50+ yrs old with little or no young people. If you have no younger generation you are a dying Church because they are your future. As has been said over and over in this thread a change in delivery can be a good thing.



I can tell you that it isn't because of the music.  It is because the Word of God is not preached.  It is because of the selfishness of the older folks in the church who want the pastor to cater to their every need, rather than the older folks in the church discipling and teaching the younger folks.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 25, 2008)

rj...it IS partially because of the music and because of the older folks, and because they won't change anything to meet the needs of newer generations.

It's the "what was good for my daddy is good for me and what is good for me is good for my kids" mentallity at churches.

The very fact that these people think that it's not the music or the uninteresting, boring way the word is preached, or the same things that have been done in that church for the past 75-100 years....THOSE are the very things that are keeping the younger generations out of churches.

Folks, it is a FACT that the last three generations (mine included in that) have turned away from churches in masses!!!  Does that not scare anyone?  Is it really worth screaming from the mountain tops "We're not changing!"?

Of course the Bible is enough guys.  But the Bible can be presented along side fun, contemporary, modern music.  It can be presented along side interesting preaching.  

One post earlier seemed to imply that if getting the kids into the church with music was the way you got them in, then it wasn't worth doing because they were just going to leave anyway.  Are you freaking kidding me???  It's not worth it because they might leave?

Yes, they might leave when they go to college.  But you've had those years that you wouldn't have otherwise had to plant a seed with them....and they WILL return.  They may not come back to your church.  But who cares?  They will return to God!

Some of the mentallity that has been presented in this thread makes me very sad.  It scares me fo rthe future of the church.  Fortunately, I have seen, first hand, that those who are putting that stuff out there are in the minority and I'm grateful for that.


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## SBG (Aug 25, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> They weren't?????
> 
> This one was made by YOU!!!!!!!
> 
> ...



Wrong.


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## SBG (Aug 25, 2008)

leroy said:


> But its just as amazing to see them singing modern songs such as My Saviour My God, Word of God Speak, Voice of Truth.



If they are Christ honoring, and not filled with the flesh appealing sounds of the modern pop culture, I agree. The problem is that there are a lot of contemporary songs and artist that are nothing more than pop singers who throw a few religious sounding phrases into the songs to make them acceptable to the church crowd.


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## SBG (Aug 25, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> Show me a church that uses music to keep the teenagers there and I'll show you a church that loses it's teenagers as soon as they are off to college.  They enjoyed the music but don't like the adult Bible classes.  That stuff is too boring for them.
> 
> I see music becoming a very negative force in strengthening the faith of people at church.  Eventually, it seems to become entertainment more than anything else.  Music should never be the primary emphasis at church.




You are right...unfortunately.

Jer 6:16
Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.


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## crackerdave (Aug 25, 2008)

The question of how to get kids into church and keep their interest has been asked since the first church.Music can be part of the attraction,but to grow in Christ takes much more than a song with a catchy beat.
A good youth pastor is a very vital part of any church,and his flock is the future of the church.


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## Music Man (Aug 25, 2008)

PWalls said:


> I got no problem with singing Victory in Jesus with a piano accompiment or singing Word of God Speak to a guitar. Both move me into a mood and attitude of worship.
> 
> I do not go to Church to sing. I go to Church to worship God.
> 
> ...



Well said !!


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## rjcruiser (Aug 25, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Folks, it is a FACT that the last three generations (mine included in that) have turned away from churches in masses!!!  Does that not scare anyone?  Is it really worth screaming from the mountain tops "We're not changing!"?



I'm all about good music.  And I like contemporary music.  I just like it to have some depth as well and I don't like singing the same 7 words, eleven times through.  I like hymns too.  

And maybe this thread is turning into the doctrine is important thread as well...as it seems that contemporary music and doctrine are somewhat hand in hand.  This is just my observation, but it appears as though those on here who are speaking about their contemporary music at the church are also speaking of the limited amount of doctrine being preached in the church.

You note that people have been leaving the church in massive droves over the last three generations.  Not sure if that is an opinion or fact, but if it is true, I'd say that the reason is because churches have gotten away from preaching the Word of God literally.  Pragmatism started roughly about the time you say people started leaving the church.

Church is not for meeting the needs of the people.  People are for meeting the needs of the church.  I think that is what has got churches reeling and losing people left and right.  People are selfish and they come to church to receive rather than give.




Huntinfool said:


> Of course the Bible is enough guys.  But the Bible can be presented along side fun, contemporary, modern music.  It can be presented along side interesting preaching.



Can you clarify the above?  It seems from your statement above that the Bible should come alongside the other entertainment/worship/music/programs in your church.  Shouldn't it be the other way around?  Shouldn't things be focused on the Bible and then the other things will come alongside of it?


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## Double Barrel BB (Aug 25, 2008)

*How does this look?*

How does this look to have on a church sign?

"BATTLE OF THE BANDS"


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## leroy (Aug 25, 2008)

SBG said:


> If they are Christ honoring, and not filled with the flesh appealing sounds of the modern pop culture, I agree. The problem is that there are a lot of contemporary songs and artist that are nothing more than pop singers who throw a few religious sounding phrases into the songs to make them acceptable to the church crowd.



so if it has a catchy tune its wrong? what is a flesh appealing sound?


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## leroy (Aug 25, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> How does this look to have on a church sign?
> 
> "BATTLE OF THE BANDS"



if it was casting crowns, newsong, mercy me it would be fine


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## SBG (Aug 25, 2008)

leroy said:


> so if it has a catchy tune its wrong? what is a flesh appealing sound?



When the music clutters the message. When the performer brings attention on themselves and away from the Creator.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 25, 2008)

In my particular situation, in my area of the world, the primary reason that kids are leaving the church in unheard of numbers is because their parents are setting terrible examples for them and don't work to 'build their children up unto the Lord".  
To blame it on the preacher is usually just a way to keep the blame off the other people at church.  The preacher is usually a scapegoat.  Children are being taught that church isn't all that important anyway.  Not necessarily by preachers; more by liberal minded, laxy, mercy seeking congregants.  Paul would be fired in most modern-day churches.  Just too boring.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 25, 2008)

SBG said:


> Wrong.



See post #46.  You did post that....in THIS thread. 





....and if you think I'm wrong about God loving my music....this is how we role when WE praise God


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## Huntinfool (Aug 25, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> You note that people have been leaving the church in massive droves over the last three generations.  Not sure if that is an opinion or fact,



Barna Group study from 2007:

ages 16-29 : 40% are outsiders to Christianity (24 million people in the US)

ages 18-41 : 37% are outsiders to Christianity (34 million people in the US)

ages 42-60 : 27% are outsiders to Christianity (21 million people in the US)

ages 61+ : 23% are outsiders to Christianity (12 million people in the US)

Anybody see a trend????  Yes, people are, in increasing numbers disinterested in being associated with Christianity.





rjcruiser said:


> Church is not for meeting the needs of the people.



RJ, I sincerely hope you mis-spoke.  I sincerely hope that you will re-read your statement here.  I truly mourn this statement if this is what the church really believes.  This is one of the saddest things I've read on these forums.  I sincerely hope you don't believe that.




rjcruiser said:


> Can you clarify the above?  It seems from your statement above that the Bible should come alongside the other entertainment/worship/music/programs in your church.  Shouldn't it be the other way around?  Shouldn't things be focused on the Bible and then the other things will come alongside of it?



Be glad to clarify.  Perhaps I wasn't clear.  No, I'm not saying the Bible should be a suppliment to the other things.  Other things...including music, should be supplimentary.  I just think it's humerous that some of you guys are of the opinion that 19th century hymns are the only acceptable way to praise God.  I think that is pretty funny.   But, yes, if you're asking....it is ok to be entertained in church.  God's there, I'm there and the Word is being preached.  Skits, loud music, video clips and all!!!  I know that's hard to believe...but it's true!


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## Ronnie T (Aug 25, 2008)

SBG said:


> You are absolutely right on that DB. There are way to many out there that are heaping praise on themselves instead of God. Just because they mention God when screaming and dancing on a stage doesn't make the music Godly.
> 
> I wish we could go back to the days when people sang to glorify and worship God in a service and not a concert.



This is something for all church leaders to strive for.  Christian singing is about worshiping God and then about strengthening and admonishing each other.  It's suppose to be about the words.  Not about the big-band sound.  It isn't about the choir, it's about everyone singing.  It's not about how it sounds, it's about how it's sent and received.  God is no more impressed by your guitar playing skills than by your ability to bang two pieces of wood together.

It's suppose to be worship.


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## Jeffriesw (Aug 25, 2008)

farmasis said:


> One of my favorite watered down contemporary gospel songs.
> 
> I believe in God the Father
> Almighty Maker of Heaven and Maker of Earth
> ...





X's 2


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## Huntinfool (Aug 25, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> How does this look to have on a church sign?
> 
> "BATTLE OF THE BANDS"



Looks good to me.  It's called Community Outreach.  



You see that in Covington?


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## SBG (Aug 25, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> See post #46.  You did post that....in THIS thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I know full well what I posted. What you apparently don't understand, is that the reference you quoted was completely Biblical...sorry you can't get your mind around it.


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## SBG (Aug 25, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> This is something for all church leaders to strive for.  Christian singing is about worshiping God and then about strengthening and admonishing each other.  It's suppose to be about the words.  Not about the big-band sound.  It isn't about the choir, it's about everyone singing.  It's not about how it sounds, it's about how it's sent and received.  God is no more impressed by your guitar playing skills than by your ability to bang two pieces of wood together.
> 
> It's suppose to be worship.



You're absolutely right Ronnie. That is the problem of the "me" generation: What's in it for me?, What's in it for my kids? etc. It is sad that we have gotten to the point that the Word of God is not sufficient to bring people to salvation. We now must appeal to people at some carnal level to entice them into church. Truth be known, a lot churches now are all about numbers and trying to get the numbers up to try and get money out of them.


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## Double Barrel BB (Aug 25, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Looks good to me. It's called Community Outreach.
> 
> 
> 
> You see that in Covington?


 
Actually I drove by it, in between Covington and Loganville...

DB BB


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## MLCausey (Aug 25, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> What is wrong with just starting out with teaching people the Word of God?  Why do you have to use music or other means to "Get them through the door?"  What is wrong with the Bible?  Is it not powerful enough?  I think people need to have a little more faith in the Word of God and the Holy Spirit and its power to convict and save.
> 
> Also, in another post, you note that two lesbians were sitting in church behind you and that you wanted to make them feel as comfortable as possible.  How can someone who is in gross obvious sin be comfortable in church?  I'm not saying that you should make them feel uncomfortable, but the Word of God should do that fairly quickly without you doing anything but preaching the Word.



Nothing is wrong with using the Bible, but for some people that just doesn't work...................if we use music as an avenue to get their foot in the door and then they hear The Word and realize how true it is, that's one million times better than them never stepping foot in the door in the first place.  We have several people saved in every service and I don't think it's the music that's saving them, so obviously The Word is reaching people's souls.
Now for the next part of your post about the lesbians... maybe they are in sin, but if they come to a church they're not welcome to, they wouldn't stay nor would they hear the word and realize they need the power of God to change their sinning ways.  And for what it's worth, I don't think I said I wanted to make them as comfortable as possible, I was GLAD to see them there, I do NOT condone their lifestyle, but I am not the one who has to judge them.  Maybe they don't feel like they're doing anything wrong, and once they are in a setting where they feel comfortable, and trust who is preaching the word to them, they will understand Biblically why they are living in sin.  It makes me sad that someone like you wouldn't open the doors to them and teach them what the correct way is.


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## farmasis (Aug 25, 2008)

SBG said:


> You're absolutely right Ronnie. That is the problem of the "me" generation: What's in it for me?, What's in it for my kids? etc. It is sad that we have gotten to the point that the Word of God is not sufficient to bring people to salvation. We now must appeal to people at some carnal level to entice them into church. Truth be known, a lot churches now are all about numbers and trying to get the numbers up to try and get money out of them.


 
If we turn away from the preaching of the gospel, you have a point. If the music gets them in to hear, then you have the opposite effect. If we refuse to change the music because it is not something that appeals to us, which 'me' are we serving?

Church music does not have to contain doctrinal disortations. It is to praise God. Here are examples from the Bible of praising God.

 4 Shout joyfully to the LORD, all the earth;
         Break forth in song, rejoice, and sing praises.
 5 Sing to the LORD with the harp,
         With the harp and the sound of a psalm,
 6 With trumpets and the sound of a horn;
         Shout joyfully before the LORD, the King. (Psalms 98)

 1 Oh, clap your hands, all you peoples!
         Shout to God with the voice of triumph! (Psalms 47)

3 Sing unto him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise. (Psalms 33)

1 Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints. (Psalms 149)

4 Thus will I bless thee while I live: I will lift up my hands in thy name. (Psalms 63)

3 Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.
4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
5 Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.
6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD. (Psalms 150)

All we have to do with praise is recognize who God is. The angels give us many examples of how to praise God.

      “ Worthy is the Lamb who was slain 
      To receive power and riches and wisdom, 
      And strength and honor and glory and blessing!” (Rev 5)

3 And one cried to another and said:

      “ Holy, holy, holy _is_ the LORD of hosts; 
      The whole earth _is_ full of His glory!” (Isaiah 6)

If you can do that to classical hymns, great! Sometimes I do too. But, I can also do it much easier to contemporary songs. We should not impede the Holy Spirit with our traditions and our desires.


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## SBG (Aug 25, 2008)

farmasis said:


> We should not impede the Holy Spirit with our traditions and our desires.



This quote would be fine if not for the fact that it is in contradiction to the Word of God. God Himself said to seek out the "old paths."

I'll say again, that there are some contemporary songs that are Christ honoring and that are not worldly in their intent and design. The problem is having to wade through the clutter to find the occasional diamond.


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## farmasis (Aug 25, 2008)

SBG said:


> This quote would be fine if not for the fact that it is in contradiction to the Word of God. God Himself said to seek out the "old paths."
> 
> I'll say again, that there are some contemporary songs that are Christ honoring and that are not worldly in their intent and design. The problem is having to wade through the clutter to find the occasional diamond.


 
The Bible also says sing a new song to God. Can you sing a new song, and seek old paths at the same time? I think you can. Remember, your 'old songs' were new songs just a short time ago.

Remember to not let your traditions hinder the workings of the Holy Spirit. (I am not accusing you of doing that.)

1Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2"Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!" 3Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? (Matt 15)
 8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. (Colossians 2)


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## Double Barrel BB (Aug 25, 2008)

I think the fine line we are all not trying to cross is between:

Glorifying God | Glorifying Self

DB BB


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## Huntinfool (Aug 25, 2008)

SBG said:


> I know full well what I posted. What you apparently don't understand, is that the reference you quoted was completely Biblical...sorry you can't get your mind around it.



Why are you getting angry?  Is the Spirit convicting? 

You said there was not "one thing that would make someone feel inferior".  I simply pointed out that you were wrong and that YOU were the one that posted it. 

I would submit that simply singing a hymn, played reverently on a piano no more makes that act Godly than does "screaming and dancing on a stage".  It is the heart of the worshiper that makes the act pleasing...not the song.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 25, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> RJ, I sincerely hope you mis-spoke.  I sincerely hope that you will re-read your statement here.  I truly mourn this statement if this is what the church really believes.  This is one of the saddest things I've read on these forums.  I sincerely hope you don't believe that.



Sure, I'll clarify....however, you also left out half of the quote, which changes the meaning of what I put.  We as Christians, should not go to church looking for our needs to be met.  We should go to church looking to meet the needs of the Church.

Our attitude should not be one of what can I get, rather one of what can I give.

When you start going to church looking to serve and meet the needs of the church, you'll be amazed at how much more you get out of it.



			
				MLCausey said:
			
		

> Nothing is wrong with using the Bible, but for some people that just doesn't work



How can you believe in the Bible, yet say that the Bible doesn't work for some people.  I thought it was the instruction manual/road map for all true believers of Christ.  



			
				MLCausey said:
			
		

> Now for the next part of your post about the lesbians... maybe they are in sin, but if they come to a church they're not welcome to, they wouldn't stay nor would they hear the word and realize they need the power of God to change their sinning ways. And for what it's worth, I don't think I said I wanted to make them as comfortable as possible, I was GLAD to see them there, I do NOT condone their lifestyle, but I am not the one who has to judge them. Maybe they don't feel like they're doing anything wrong, and once they are in a setting where they feel comfortable, and trust who is preaching the word to them, they will understand Biblically why they are living in sin. It makes me sad that someone like you wouldn't open the doors to them and teach them what the correct way is.



Do we need to make people feel welcome?  Yes.  Do we need to show people that they are desperately wicked and in need of a savior? Yes.  Can the two go hand in hand?  Yes.  Look at Christ for our example.  For example, the woman at the well in Samaria.  Did He try to make her feel good about herself?  Did He try and make her feel comfortable?  No.  He asked her convicting questions and dealt with her sin.  

You come out and say that I wouldn't open the doors to them.  I would.  The doors are open every sunday morning, sunday evening and wednesday evening.  Everyone who enters those doors at my church, including myself is a sinner that is dealing with sin in their lives.  However, if you are in sin, you should not feel comfortable in the pew of the Church listening to the Word of God being preached.  If you are in Sin, and you do feel comfortable, I will go as far as to say that the Word of God is not being preached.  (I'm not saying your church specifically, but any church)

Heb 4:12-13
12For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 

 13And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 25, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Sure, I'll clarify....however, you also left out half of the quote, which changes the meaning of what I put.  We as Christians, should not go to church looking for our needs to be met.  We should go to church looking to meet the needs of the Church.
> 
> Our attitude should not be one of what can I get, rather one of what can I give.
> 
> When you start going to church looking to serve and meet the needs of the church, you'll be amazed at how much more you get out of it.



You are correct.  I did leave part of it out and should have put the whole thing in.  But it doesn't really change the meaning.  I agree...we should be serving in the Church.  

I suppose what I got out of your statement, though, was that the Church is not supposed to be meeting the needs of people.  What in the heck is the point of the service then?  What is the Church in existence for if it is not to meet the needs of people?  That is a VERY sad statement IMO.  

We, as believers and members, should absolutely be serving the Church...but for the PURPOSE of meeting the needs of people.  If we lose sight of that, we are just part of the Lions Club.  Hand me a vest!


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## Double Barrel BB (Aug 25, 2008)

Quoted from C.H. Spurgeon, my emphasis is in red...



> George the Third in his older days did some very curious things, and very frequently made them think him insane, but there was a kind of method in all his madness. One day he met a Quaker gentleman, and accosted him, and was introduced to his wife. George said, “And are you one of the Society of Friends, madam?” She said she was. “Isn’t there a little too much lace there?” he said, putting his hand on some portion of her dress. She said, “Well, I have a little deviated from strictness, I am sorry to say.” “And I am sorry to see it, madam,” he said, “for when people once get away from their strictness they generally go a very long way from it,” and there is very great truth in that.



DB BB


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## rjcruiser (Aug 25, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> What in the heck is the point of the service then?  What is the Church in existence for if it is not to meet the needs of people?  That is a VERY sad statement IMO.  We, as believers and members, should absolutely be serving the Church...but for the PURPOSE of meeting the needs of people.  If we lose sight of that, we are just part of the Lions Club.  Hand me a vest!



To Glorify God.  That is the purpose of Church....that is the purpose of the Christian life.  The Church I attend is God-Centered...not man-centered.


----------



## Huntinfool (Aug 25, 2008)

Quoted from the Book of Spurgeon.  Chapter 3.  Verse 8.




All I can say is just come.  Come and see the genuine meeting of God and sincerity of heart in the worshipers in a good contemporary worship service.  

We are often afraid of that which we do not understand.  Y'all stay in your trad services.  As I've said before, they are awesome and I LOVE going to campmeeting every summer.  

But you can talk till you're blue in the face and you'll never convince me that there is anything un-Godly or un-Biblical about the type of worship I experience.  It just ain't so.


----------



## SBG (Aug 25, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Why are you getting angry?  Is the Spirit convicting?
> 
> You said there was not "one thing that would make someone feel inferior".  I simply pointed out that you were wrong and that YOU were the one that posted it.
> 
> I would submit that simply singing a hymn, played reverently on a piano no more makes that act Godly than does "screaming and dancing on a stage".  It is the heart of the worshiper that makes the act pleasing...not the song.



Not angry at all...funny post coming from someone who chooses to belittle someone's post by using the crazy smilies because you don't agree with their position. Now who was mad?

I doubt that God approves of the "praise" of a worshipper that wants to straddle the fence by keeping one foot in the church and the other in the world. Way too much scripture on holiness and seperation to allow the carnal use of the world's sounds for that boat to float.


----------



## Huntinfool (Aug 25, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> To Glorify God.  That is the purpose of Church....that is the purpose of the Christian life.  The Church I attend is God-Centered...not man-centered.



Circular logic.  Does God not have a heart for people?  If we do not have a heart for those who God loves....who he created...

...well I feel sorry for you if you don't care to serve the people around you as Christ clearly did.

People need care and if we, as Christians, won't give it to them, they will go find it somewhere else.  This thread has gotten off track.  So I'll let it get back on.


----------



## SBG (Aug 25, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Quoted from C.H. Spurgeon, my emphasis is in red...
> 
> 
> 
> DB BB



It get easier to understand when we grow from milk to meat. 

The "me" crowd seems willing to allow anything to go as long as it gets people in the door.


----------



## Huntinfool (Aug 25, 2008)

SBG said:


> I doubt that God approves of the "praise" of a worshipper that wants to straddle the fence by keeping one foot in the church and the other in the world.



You falsely assume that contemporary worship has one foot in the world simply because it uses modern instruments and modern beats.  

As I've said before, the organ was once a VERY modern instrument and was quite a deviation from the previous.  Those darn carnal worshippers....how dare they desecrate God's worship by "looking like the world".   

If we look at the title of the thread.  It is ALL a style difference.  The songs I sing lack no substance, praise God appropriately and I KNOW...I KNOW that they please God...and, yes, SBG, he DOES approve of it.


No smilies necessary.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Aug 25, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Quoted from the Book of Spurgeon. Chapter 3. Verse 8.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

A lot of people could learn a great deal by reading some of Spurgeon's writings... 



I have not once said that the way you worship is un-Godly or un-Biblical.  I have only voice concern about the Glorifying of God and the Glorifying of Self... I have seen it in other churches, and have voiced my opinion of what I have seen... take it or not, that is up to you...

DB BB


----------



## farmasis (Aug 25, 2008)

SBG said:


> It get easier to understand when we grow from milk to meat.
> 
> The "me" crowd seems willing to allow anything to go as long as it gets people in the door.


 

In most churches, it is the older generation that is the 'me' generation. They are unwilling to change anything to attract new members. They are content to stifle the moving of the Holy Spirit. They want 3 point messages that finish before 12:00. It is the ones that should be matured in their spirit to realize that church isn't about them anymore. It is reaching the unsaved.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Aug 25, 2008)

Another quote from Spurgeon:



> That devotion which must always show itself by shouting may be very genuine, but it is to be feared that it is superficial. Deep waters run silently. Great feeling is dumb: there is a frost of the mouth when there is a thaw of the soul. 2072.118


----------



## SBG (Aug 25, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> You falsely assume that contemporary worship has one foot in the world simply because it uses modern instruments and modern beats.
> 
> As I've said before, the organ was once a VERY modern instrument and was quite a deviation from the previous.  Those darn carnal worshippers....how dare they desecrate God's worship by "looking like the world".
> 
> ...



Nothing false about what I said. 

I've heard a lot of people mention the group "Third Day," so I went to their website to take a look and see if there was anything there that had changed since I taught the teen class and had a series on contemporary music. Not surprisingly, but still sad, there is not one reference on their homepage on the gospel. The entire page was a shrine to the created and not the Creator. It in frought with the signs of incrementalism. I'm sure that some in this world would agree with Christian porn if it got people in the door. Truly sad.


----------



## SBG (Aug 25, 2008)

farmasis said:


> In most churches, it is the older generation that is the 'me' generation. They are unwilling to change anything to attract new members. They are content to stifle the moving of the Holy Spirit. They want 3 point messages that finish before 12:00. It is the ones that should be matured in their spirit to realize that church isn't about them anymore. It is reaching the unsaved.



That may be true at some churches...but thankfully not all of them. I think that in a lot of churches, it is the older ones that are trying to maintain the churches standards and trying to protect from the continual drift to liberalism.


----------



## farmasis (Aug 25, 2008)

SBG said:


> That may be true at some churches...but thankfully not all of them. I think that in a lot of churches, it is the older ones that are trying to maintain the churches standards and trying to protect from the continual drift to liberalism.


 
I think that is one in the same. Are you denying that most churches are dying? Are they dying because 'liberalism' is creeping in, or that those gatekeepers stifle growth?


----------



## Huntinfool (Aug 25, 2008)

SBG said:


> Nothing false about what I said.
> 
> I've heard a lot of people mention the group "Third Day," so I went to their website to take a look and see if there was anything there that had changed since I taught the teen class and had a series on contemporary music. Not surprisingly, but still sad, there is not one reference on their homepage on the gospel. The entire page was a shrine to the created and not the Creator. It in frought with the signs of incrementalism. I'm sure that some in this world would agree with Christian porn if it got people in the door. Truly sad.



Sorry buddy.  The smiley is necessary on that one.  


You go listen to your hymns and keep on condemning the rest of us.  We'll still be here, praising God with sounds that are pleasing to him whether you approve or not.  

There are some things that you will just have to go on misinterpreting and misunderstanding.  That's fine.  It just makes me sad.

Now if you'll excuse me...I gotta go find me some Christian porn so that I can lure some unsuspecting lost folks into my unbiblical church and corrupt them with my rock music.


----------



## SBG (Aug 25, 2008)

farmasis said:


> I think that is one in the same. Are you denying that most churches are dying? Are they dying because 'liberalism' is creeping in, or that those gatekeepers stifle growth?



I think that there are a myriad of reasons why the church seems to be dying; but, there is no need to list more than those that are prophesied in the scripures: the fact that the Bible has said that there would be a great falling away; and that in the end times people would not endure sound doctrine; or the fact that they will gravitate to the churches that itch the ears of those who attend; etc.


----------



## SBG (Aug 25, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Sorry buddy.  The smiley is necessary on that one.
> 
> You're looney.




Just a bit of reading comprehension would show that I'm not looney. You can rationalize to your hearts content, but it doesn't change the reality of the statement I made.


----------



## farmasis (Aug 25, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Another quote from Spurgeon:


 
How about these?

Stagnation in a church is the devil’s delight. 2802.514 

You shall not find on the roll of history that for a length of time any Christian 
community has flourished after it has become negligent of the outside world. TN82

I have observed that churches which do not care for the outlying population speedily 
suffer from disunion and strife. 1170.244


----------



## Huntinfool (Aug 25, 2008)

SBG said:


> Just a bit of reading comprehension would show that I'm not looney. You can rationalize to your hearts content, but it doesn't change the reality of the statement I made.



I know.  I know.  You're more enlightened than the rest of us.  I'll keep that in mind when reading further posts.

I removed the "looney" thing a while ago.  It wasn't nice and I shouldn't have put it in there.


----------



## farmasis (Aug 25, 2008)

SBG said:


> I think that there are a myriad of reasons why the church seems to be dying; but, there is no need to list more than those that are prophesied in the scripures: the fact that the Bible has said that there would be a great falling away; and that in the end times people would not endure sound doctrine; or the fact that they will gravitate to the churches that itch the ears of those who attend; etc.


 
...or maybe because the church has turned away from evangalism because it is more comfortable to sit in a pew and have things the way we want them.

Besides, I haven't seen one unbiblical evidence of contemporary Christian music. While i quote scripture to support it, others quote man.


----------



## SBG (Aug 25, 2008)

farmasis said:


> How about these?
> 
> Stagnation in a church is the devil’s delight. 2802.514
> 
> ...




Not a one of those quotes by Spurgeon contradicts anything that has been said in this forum that I have read. I fail to see how maintaining the standards of the Church are anyway linked to not caring for the unchurched. The opposite is actually true.


----------



## SBG (Aug 25, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> I know.  I know.  You're more enlightened than the rest of us.  I'll keep that in mind when reading further posts.
> 
> I removed the "looney" thing a while ago.  It wasn't nice and I shouldn't have put it in there.




But it is typical when someone can't discuss by using the Word of God. Eventually they will resort to name calling to make their point since it is all they got.


----------



## farmasis (Aug 25, 2008)

SBG said:


> Not a one of those quotes by Spurgeon contradicts anything that has been said in this forum that I have read. I fail to see how maintaining the standards of the Church are anyway linked to not caring for the unchurched. The opposite is actually true.


 

You assume that changing the music changes any standard that God, and not man, gave us.


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## Double Barrel BB (Aug 25, 2008)

farmasis said:


> How about these?
> 
> Stagnation in a church is the devil’s delight. 2802.514
> 
> ...


 

I agree with those wholeheartedly!!!  Great Quotes!

DB BB


----------



## SBG (Aug 25, 2008)

farmasis said:


> You assume that changing the music changes any standard that God, and not man, gave us.




Farm...you assume to much.

I never said that music can not change; quite the contrary, music can change, but it shouldn't be used as a draw. Jesus doesn't need the help. As long as the music is Christ honoring and doctrinally sound, and is not inundated with the sounds of the carnal world, it should be used in worship. 


The problem is when we use groups like "Third Day" as an example of Christ honoring music. Take a look at their website and tell me if you can find the gospel anywhere on it.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 25, 2008)

SBG said:


> But it is typical when someone can't discuss by using the Word of God. Eventually they will resort to name calling to make their point since it is all they got.



I love you too SBG.  



I've spent all day refuting you logically.  I can spend another doing it Biblically if you'd like.  I just figured calling you looney would get down to your core level so we could relate better brother..LOL.
(oh, LOL, is a computer term....it essentially means I kidding.)


It boils down to this.  I care about getting people into genuine relationship with Jesus Christ.  I want them to experience the unimaginable grace and forgiveness that I've experienced and don't really care how you get them in the door to do it as long as they get to that place (Christian porn exlcuded of course ).  

You obviously do care and that's cool.  If you want to stand on the doorstep and shout that the Bible is enough (and it is...I agree) then go ahead.  But the world doesn't think so and I'm trying to get them to believe it.  So if I have to put on a rock concert to get them to hear the message and then fall in love with Christ, then crank up the band!!!

You go ahead and judge me for that.  I really could not care less.


----------



## SBG (Aug 25, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> I love you too SBG.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm afraid that you confuse logic with rationalization. 

Lean not unto your own understanding.


----------



## Huntinfool (Aug 25, 2008)

Crank up the band and let's praise Jesus!!!!


----------



## SBG (Aug 25, 2008)

> You confuse knowledge with piety.
> 
> 
> Wanna keep going?



Why is that? Because I choose to use God's Word as evidence and you use how you feel?


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## farmasis (Aug 25, 2008)

SBG said:


> Farm...you assume to much.
> 
> I never said that music can not change; quite the contrary, music can change, but it shouldn't be used as a draw. Jesus doesn't need the help. As long as the music is Christ honoring and doctrinally sound, and is not inundated with the sounds of the carnal world, it should be used in worship.
> 
> ...


 




Found it.

You can look at any Third day song and let me know if you find anything in it that is contrary to the gospel. There is no music that is carnal. All melodies belongs to God. It is man's traditions, that Jesus preached against, that is to be left out of God's church. Jesus himself talked to people in ways that they could relate to. That is why he spoke in parables about situations they were familiar with. The familiar stories taught people about him. Just as contemporary songs use familiar sounds and styles, but deliver the message.


----------



## farmasis (Aug 25, 2008)

SBG said:


> Why is that? Because I choose to use God's Word as evidence and you use how you feel?


 
? I was about to say the very same thing.

What of God's word have you used?


----------



## SBG (Aug 25, 2008)

farmasis said:


> Found it.
> 
> You can look at any Third day song and let me know if you find anything in it that is contrary to the gospel. There is no music that is carnal. All melodies belongs to God. It is man's traditions, that Jesus preached against, that is to be left out of God's church. Jesus himself talked to people in ways that they could relate to. That is why he spoke in parables about situations they were familiar with. The familiar stories taught people about him. Just as contemporary songs use familiar sounds and styles, but deliver the message.




Didn't say that they were contrary...said that there was no mention of the gospel. No link telling anyone what was required to be saved. There is one place that heaps praise on them as being a great rock band.


----------



## SBG (Aug 25, 2008)

farmasis said:


> ? I was about to say the very same thing.
> 
> What of God's word have you used?




Go back and reread the posts and if you can't find it, I'll copy and paste them.


----------



## Huntinfool (Aug 25, 2008)

Don't bother...I did it for you.

You've posted a grand total of ONE scripture (actually the same one twice) in this thread.  So if we're measuring scripture, here's one so that we're even.  farmasis has done a fantastic job of posting the scripture that show how much water your arguments hold.  But here's my scripture.

"a fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his own opinions"

You and I both have posted a whole bunch of opinion in here and very little scripture.  Welcome to the fools club brother SBG.


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## leroy (Aug 25, 2008)

You say third day go to The Gaithers website they have no link to the gospel either but no one doubts that there music is Christian. Its all about the unwillingness to change and the lack of knowledge. If its different then it must be bad.


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## SBG (Aug 25, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Don't bother...I did it for you.
> 
> You've posted a grand total of ONE scripture (actually the same one twice) in this thread.  So if we're measuring scripture, here's one so that we're even.  farmasis has done a fantastic job of posting the scripture that show how much water your arguments hold.  But here's my scripture.
> 
> ...




I paraphased much scripture. If it is necessary to make it more readibly understandable to put it into entire passages with accompanying Book-Chapter-Verse...I'll do that from now on.


Matthew 5:22


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## SBG (Aug 25, 2008)

leroy said:


> You say third day go to The Gaithers website they have no link to the gospel either but no one doubts that there music is Christian. Its all about the unwillingness to change and the lack of knowledge. If its different then it must be bad.



Can't abide by the Gaithers either. 

Nice try Leroy.


----------



## farmasis (Aug 25, 2008)

OK, I am done with this one.

Jesus said that if I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me. He did not say how to lift us up, but he gave us examples as I posted. Until contemporary Christian music stops lifting up Christ, I will support it. 
I love southern gospel and traditional hymns, also.


----------



## leroy (Aug 25, 2008)

SBG said:


> Can't abide by the Gaithers either.
> 
> Nice try Leroy.



do you like any group?


----------



## jmharris23 (Aug 25, 2008)

Ya'll are something else! Thats all I can say about it


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 25, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> You are correct.  I did leave part of it out and should have put the whole thing in.  But it doesn't really change the meaning.  I agree...we should be serving in the Church.
> 
> I suppose what I got out of your statement, though, was that the Church is not supposed to be meeting the needs of people.  What in the heck is the point of the service then?  What is the Church in existence for if it is not to meet the needs of people?  That is a VERY sad statement IMO.
> 
> We, as believers and members, should absolutely be serving the Church...but for the PURPOSE of meeting the needs of people.  If we lose sight of that, we are just part of the Lions Club.  Hand me a vest!




Everytime the church comes together, it's primary reason should be to worship, praise, honor, and glorify God.   They are able to join together in prayer.  They celebrate the life/death of Jesus during communion.  They join together in singing. If you need Bible education, we have Bible classes.  Everyone should be strengthened and encouraged simply by being there.  While there, at some gatherings, a minister will share the gospel and words of encouragement to those present.  Christians don't come where I worship to be served.  

Unless a Christian is in need, if they want to be served, I normally send them to Waffle House.  Otherwise, Christian's are in the service business.


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 25, 2008)

farmasis said:


> I think that is one in the same. Are you denying that most churches are dying? Are they dying because 'liberalism' is creeping in, or that those gatekeepers stifle growth?




First, the church is not dying.  The "Center for the Study of Church Growth" says church numbers are in decline for two reasons:  1.  People have been convinced by liberal Christians that church isn't necessary.  They think that if they 'believe' church is a waste of a day off.  2.  In many locations, existing Christians are a terrible influence on new, growing Christians.  Too many mature Christians have become so busy that they are neglecting church - new converts eagerly learn from them.

By the way, those same people say a preacher/minister/pastor  is probably only responsible for 6% of the attendance.  The other 94% would be there no matter who the preacher was.


----------



## MLCausey (Aug 25, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Sure, I'll clarify....however, you also left out half of the quote, which changes the meaning of what I put.  We as Christians, should not go to church looking for our needs to be met.  We should go to church looking to meet the needs of the Church.
> 
> Our attitude should not be one of what can I get, rather one of what can I give.
> 
> ...



What I meant was that the general public knows that in a Christian church, The Bible will be read, referenced, whatever.  That doesn't always work as a way to get them into the doors, maybe if we can connect at a common level with the unchurched, by music, food, whatever, they will darken the door of the church and come in to find that learning who Christ is and referring to the Bible isn't as boring as they may have originally preceived it to be.  I kinda get the feeling you don't give a rip about the unchurched though.


----------



## SBG (Aug 25, 2008)

leroy said:


> do you like any group?



Actually I don't listen to any of the commercial groups. 

It has always amazed me how someone wouldn't by a CD from the local church quartet, soloist, etc. who is trying to spread the gospel, but will run out and plop $15 down on "Ol' Possum sings Gospel."


----------



## Huntinfool (Aug 25, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> Everytime the church comes together, it's primary reason should be to worship, praise, honor, and glorify God.   They are able to join together in prayer.  They celebrate the life/death of Jesus during communion.  They join together in singing. If you need Bible education, we have Bible classes.  Everyone should be strengthened and encouraged simply by being there.  While there, at some gatherings, a minister will share the gospel and words of encouragement to those present.  Christians don't come where I worship to be served.
> 
> Unless a Christian is in need, if they want to be served, I normally send them to Waffle House.  Otherwise, Christian's are in the service business.




You guys are completely missing what I'm saying.


----------



## farmasis (Aug 25, 2008)

SBG said:


> Actually I don't listen to any of the commercial groups.
> 
> It has always amazed me how someone wouldn't by a CD from the local church quartet, soloist, etc. who is trying to spread the gospel, but will run out and plop $15 down on "Ol' Possum sings Gospel."


 
I am trying to find anything proclaiming Christ here.

http://www.rayboltz.com/


----------



## MLCausey (Aug 25, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> You guys are completely missing what I'm saying.



I'm not so sure these guys have ever heard of spiritual hunger!  If the spiritually hungry are not served or fed at church then what's happening?

Jesus said, "I am the Bread of Life.  Whoever comes to me will never go hungry and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty..." John 6:35
Jesus is serving/feeding our spriritual hunger and where else do we find it, or grow it other than church leadership?  Where else can we go outside of our own prayer, meditation, and faith?
I TOTALLY get what you're saying. If we're not getting something out of it, why are we there?  Yeah, we're there to praise Him, but if we don't have a personal relationship with Him, do we really know why we are praising him?  There are plenty of people who know who God is and know who Jesus is but they don't _know_ them...this is knowledge GAINED by going to church, reading our scriptures and seeking Christ as our savior.
We shouldn't be going to church because we think we're going to get something tangible/material from it, but we should go so we can gain knowledge, wisdom and a relationship with Christ.  I'd say that's getting something out of it.
And Christ does need us, if he didn't need us He wouldn't have died for our sins in that we would return to He and the Father.  We need him more though, otherwise we are not guaranteed everlasting life, no salvation, no being saved.


----------



## SBG (Aug 26, 2008)

farmasis said:


> I am trying to find anything proclaiming Christ here.
> 
> http://www.rayboltz.com/



Not surprising since he is a contemporary artist.


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 26, 2008)

SBG said:


> Not surprising since he is a contemporary artist.



SBG,
I must say, just because a Contemporary Christian group doesn't have a link on how to become a Christian on their website, doesn't mean that their music doesn't glorify God and that they are doing it for selfish motives.  I've listened to a lot of Contemporary Christian music that had great depth and had an impact on my life that didn't come with a gospel tract in the tape cover or the CD case.


----------



## SBG (Aug 26, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> SBG,
> I must say, just because a Contemporary Christian group doesn't have a link on how to become a Christian on their website, doesn't mean that their music doesn't glorify God and that they are doing it for selfish motives.  I've listened to a lot of Contemporary Christian music that had great depth and had an impact on my life that didn't come with a gospel tract in the tape cover or the CD case.



I have heard several CCM songs that glorify God. 

Do you really think that it doesn't matter one way or the other if a site that is supposed to be Christian, doesn't have the gospel on it somewhere?


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 26, 2008)

SBG said:


> I have heard several CCM songs that glorify God.
> 
> Do you really think that it doesn't matter one way or the other if a site that is supposed to be Christian, doesn't have the gospel on it somewhere?



I think the more important question is...Does the artist or group share the gospel through their lifestyle, their music and their testimony?  Do they share the gospel at their concerts?  That is what matters.


----------



## SBG (Aug 26, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> I think the more important question is...Does the artist or group share the gospel through their lifestyle, their music and their testimony?  Do they share the gospel at their concerts?  That is what matters.



No offense, but that is not what the Bible tells us. We are to preach the Word, to be instant in season and out of season.

It is not only disingenous of the artist, but it is sinful to not utilize the medium that God has provided them to share the good news of a living Saviour.


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 26, 2008)

SBG said:


> No offense, but that is not what the Bible tells us. We are to preach the Word, to be instant in season and out of season.
> 
> It is not only disingenous of the artist, but it is sinful to not utilize the medium that God has provided them to share the good news of a living Saviour.



I don't think God ever told us to form a band, and go into the world and sing.
I think I'm going to start mass producing tapes of my sermons and at the end of each service I'll stand out in the foyer and sell my tapes and tshirts.


----------



## MLCausey (Aug 26, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> I think the more important question is...Does the artist or group share the gospel through their lifestyle, their music and their testimony?  Do they share the gospel at their concerts?  That is what matters.



Well Rj,
Seems like you and I agree on something!!!!!!!!


----------



## leroy (Aug 26, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> I think the more important question is...Does the artist or group share the gospel through their lifestyle, their music and their testimony?  Do they share the gospel at their concerts?  That is what matters.



This post is one of the better ones of this thread and pretty much sums it up !


----------



## leroy (Aug 26, 2008)

SBG said:


> No offense, but that is not what the Bible tells us. We are to preach the Word, to be instant in season and out of season.
> 
> It is not only disingenous of the artist, but it is sinful to not utilize the medium that God has provided them to share the good news of a living Saviour.



They are utilizing what God has provided and doing it through their music.


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 26, 2008)

MLCausey said:


> Well Rj,
> Seems like you and I agree on something!!!!!!!!



See...I'm not so bad after all

Maybe still a little rough around the edges though


----------



## SBG (Aug 26, 2008)

leroy said:


> They are utilizing what God has provided and doing it through their music.



Really they're not. Go read the lyrics to the songs from their last album. It is a shame that such obviously talented people are not sold out to spreading the gospel.


----------



## farmasis (Aug 26, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> I don't think God ever told us to form a band, and go into the world and sing.
> I think I'm going to start mass producing tapes of my sermons and at the end of each service I'll stand out in the foyer and sell my tapes and tshirts.


 
He said to go into all the world and spread the gospel. Surely, that can take many forms.
As far as the last comment, this is their livelyhood. Just as a pastor is paid to preach, a singer is paid to sing.
Do you preach without compensation?


----------



## farmasis (Aug 26, 2008)

SBG said:


> Really they're not. Go read the lyrics to the songs from their last album. It is a shame that such obviously talented people are not sold out to spreading the gospel.


 
Third day?


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## Huntinfool (Aug 26, 2008)

Don't do it farm....as I was told in a PM today, it just ain't worth it. 

to quote the great Fresh Prince and DJ Jazzy Jeff, "Parents just don't understand".  (bet that's the first time THAT has ever happened in this forum!)


Anybody who knows about them and has followed them for any period of time knows how ridiculous that is.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 26, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> to quote the great Fresh Prince and DJ Jazzy Jeff, "Parents just don't understand".  (bet that's the first time THAT has ever happened in this forum!)



Fresh what and DJ who




Never thought an article saying that the issue with contemporary music was not the style, but the substance would end up with a quote from those two.


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## Banjo (Aug 26, 2008)

Just found this thread, so I may be a day late and a dollar short.

What is more important in worship, the whole counsel of God being preached accurately, or the music?

How many people do you know who actually choose a church based on what kind of music the service includes rather than whether or not the Word is being faithfully proclaimed.

Methinks our priorities are backwards.  If I am interested in church because of the way the music makes ME feel, then worship ceases being about giving glory to the Creator God.


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## Jeff Phillips (Aug 26, 2008)

Maybe we should just go back to the Psalms and only allow the harp.

Then I could find a parking place at my Church

Our early service (contemporary) is ready to bust the doors off our santuary. Baptisims just about every Sunday.

Our 11:00 service (mostly traditional) is growing slightly, well above the average of the SBC.

I can worship with either, but *my personal preference *is traditional. That does not mean that my way is right or wrong.

I think Paul would have gone either way on this issue too


I Cor. 9:

19 Even though I am a free man with no master, I have become a slave to all people to bring many to Christ. 20 When I was with the Jews, I lived like a Jew to bring the Jews to Christ. When I was with those who follow the Jewish law, I too lived under that law. Even though I am not subject to the law, I did this so I could bring to Christ those who are under the law. 21 When I am with the Gentiles who do not follow the Jewish law,[d] I too live apart from that law so I can bring them to Christ. But I do not ignore the law of God; I obey the law of Christ.

   22 When I am with those who are weak, I share their weakness, for I want to bring the weak to Christ. Yes, I try to find common ground with everyone, doing everything I can to save some. 23 I do everything to spread the Good News and share in its blessings.


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## leroy (Aug 26, 2008)

SBG said:


> Really they're not. Go read the lyrics to the songs from their last album. It is a shame that such obviously talented people are not sold out to spreading the gospel.



Im not that familiar with third day but the others that I listen to alot praise God in their lyrics. Mercy me, Casting Crowns are a couple of my favorites. Mark Shultz have been known to listen to a little Tobymac.


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## letsgohuntin (Aug 26, 2008)

*I will leave my pride by my side...*

I think this is the perfect song for this thread... it seems like David Crowder may have had this same debate before writing this song! You traditionalist be sure to listen to the lyrics now!  

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/hp7B5V-qpTQ&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/hp7B5V-qpTQ&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


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## Huntinfool (Aug 26, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Fresh what and DJ who
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ha!  just thought I'd mix things up a bit buddy!


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## farmasis (Aug 26, 2008)

Banjo said:


> Just found this thread, so I may be a day late and a dollar short.
> 
> What is more important in worship, the whole counsel of God being preached accurately, or the music?


 
Preaching.

My turn:

What is more important in worshipping in music, the whole counsel of God being sung or praise?


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## Ronnie T (Aug 26, 2008)

I've always considered singing to be a vital part of church assemblies.  It's the one time that the church can join together and worship God as one voice and one heart.  In singing, we speak to God.


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## SBG (Aug 27, 2008)

Banjo said:


> Just found this thread, so I may be a day late and a dollar short.
> 
> What is more important in worship, the whole counsel of God being preached accurately, or the music?
> 
> ...



Excellent post!


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## SBG (Aug 27, 2008)

letsgohuntin said:


> I think this is the perfect song for this thread... it seems like David Crowder may have had this same debate before writing this song! You traditionalist be sure to listen to the lyrics now!
> 
> <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/hp7B5V-qpTQ&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/hp7B5V-qpTQ&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>



Thanks for this video...it makes my point well better than I ever could.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 27, 2008)

I was at Indian Springs back in July.  The youth service started at 7 over at their tabernacle and the evening service in the "Big Tabernacle" started at 7:30.  Why?  Because the youth were rocking out to stuff like that.  That song, in particular, was being played a lot.  

My wife and I walked over there every night at 7 just to listen and to watch those kids worship.  You can say what you want.  But it was something amazing to experience at a campmeeting that has been going since the late 1800's.  

Standing at the Youth Tabernacle and listening to this, watching those kids and worshiping with them and then walking over to the Big Tabernacle and worshiping to the old hymns was an awesome experience.  

They were each different, but were both worshipful and I know that God was pleased with both.  So if the point to all of this mess is that this type of song isn't pleasing to God, then y'all go ahead and believe it.  You don't like it and that's absolutely fine.

It won't change the fact that we experienced the presence of God in both of those tabernacles for ten days....even while the kids were jumping up and down.


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## farmasis (Aug 27, 2008)

farmasis said:


> Preaching.
> 
> My turn:
> 
> What is more important in worshipping in music, the whole counsel of God being sung or praise?


 

Anyone?.... SBG wanna take a stab?.... Of course I will be looking for scripture to back up your response, so choose well.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 27, 2008)

Clarify for a poor, uneducated, layman....

What exactly are we talking about when we say "the whole counsel of God"?


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## farmasis (Aug 27, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Clarify for a poor, uneducated, layman....
> 
> What exactly are we talking about when we say "the whole counsel of God"?


 
When we sing, are we to sing doctrine or just praise him?

What does God desire?


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## Banjo (Aug 27, 2008)

Can you praise God apart from correct doctrine?

Would God be honored if you were to sing something incorrect about Him?


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## Huntinfool (Aug 27, 2008)

Oh....ok, now it's a softball IMO.  But I know there will be lots of folks who disagree with me.

farm, forgive me.  But I don't have the scripture to back it up yet.  Will post it as I can.  But I believe that, in worship, God wants us to praise him.  Does that pre-clude praising him because of the doctrine that we know about him?  No, I don't think so. 

But if the question is essentially, when we praise, do we just sing a recitation of doctrine or should we just come to him humbly with our gifts of addoration and love for him?....If that's the question, I'll take the latter all day.

I think God would rather us tell him how grateful we are; how much we love him; how awesome he is, than simply sing doctrinal statements.

Again, I've not looked up the scripture.  So I'm open to correction on this.  But, I'll tell ya, you're gonna have to do a bang up job to convince me differently!


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## farmasis (Aug 27, 2008)

Banjo said:


> Can you praise God apart from correct doctrine?
> 
> Would God be honored if you were to sing something incorrect about Him?


 
That is not the issue. The issue is 'watered down' theology in praise music. Is it more important to sing to God theology, or just raise your hands and exclaim He is king, Worthy is the Lamb, etc.? What does He desire?


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## Huntinfool (Aug 27, 2008)

Banjo said:


> Can you praise God apart from correct doctrine?
> 
> Would God be honored if you were to sing something incorrect about Him?



That's not the question farm asked.  He's not asking whether God wants you to praise with truths or with falsehoods.  That's a question that doesn't even need to be asked.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 27, 2008)

Clearly, singing is a tremendous part of Christian living.



1.  1 Corinthians 14:15
What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

2.  Ephesians 5:18-20
18....but be filled with the Spirit, 
19speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord; 
20always giving thanks for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God, even the Father; 

3.  Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

4.  Hebrews 2:12
saying," I WILL PROCLAIM YOUR NAME TO MY BRETHREN,IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION I WILL SING YOUR PRAISE."

5.  James 5:13
Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises.

6.  Revelation 15:3
And they sang the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, " Great and marvelous are Your works, O Lord God, the Almighty;Righteous and true are Your ways, King of the nations!


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## SBG (Aug 27, 2008)

farmasis said:


> Anyone?.... SBG wanna take a stab?.... Of course I will be looking for scripture to back up your response, so choose well.



I don't mean this to be rude, but I don't understand the question.


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## farmasis (Aug 27, 2008)

I have a hard time with English sometimes, as it is a second language to me. I just don't have a first . Let me try again...

It was asked, what is more important, preaching of the whole counsel of God or music?

I say preaching.

Then I wanted to turn it around, because it is really what this thread is about.

When praising God with music, what is more important- having the whole counsel of God present in the song, or simply just praising him. Disclaimer: I am not saying having doctrine opposite of the gospel in the song.

Since I feel, and I assume most of us do, that the praise should be directed to God (and not for us at all), what does He desire? Does He prefer us tell Him about His doctrine, or would simply a simple song like this one (which I just made up, copywrite pending .) do?

Praise you Lord of the Heavens,
Praise you Lord of the Earth,
Worthy is the Lamb,
Worthy is the Lamb,
to accept my praise, (you get the idea)


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## rjcruiser (Aug 27, 2008)

farmasis said:


> When praising God with music, what is more important- having the whole counsel of God present in the song, or simply just praising him. Disclaimer: I am not saying having doctrine opposite of the gospel in the song.



Why settle for one or the other?  Why not both?  I think that there are plenty of songs that do both.  And those...those are the ones I think we should sing on Sunday mornings in Church.


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## SBG (Aug 27, 2008)

farmasis said:


> I have a hard time with English sometimes, as it is a second language to me. I just don't have a first . Let me try again...
> 
> It was asked, what is more important, preaching of the whole counsel of God or music?
> 
> ...



I don’t think that it is required that our songs of worship to be a recital of biblical doctrine; however, obviously, they must not be in contradiction to doctrine either. The best example is that in Revelation where God is constantly praised with the repeating holy, holy, holy. The beautiful hymn Holy, Holy, Holy was based on this passage. I honestly cannot see a distinction between your lyrics and the hymn-other than the hymn is complete in detail and yours is a work in progress.


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## farmasis (Aug 27, 2008)

So, it is the style--and not the substance we have a problem with, in regards to most contemporary Christian music.


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## farmasis (Aug 27, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Why settle for one or the other? Why not both? I think that there are plenty of songs that do both. And those...those are the ones I think we should sing on Sunday mornings in Church.


 
Yes there are, and I love some of them. Holy, Holy, Holy for instance.
However, some others are frankly very hard to worship to, and in my opinion not written for that purpose. They do back up doctrine and that is fine. But, some are written purely for praise, containing little doctrine. 

I think each has it's place.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 27, 2008)

farmasis said:


> Yes there are, and I love some of them. Holy, Holy, Holy for instance.
> However, some others are frankly very hard to worship to, and in my opinion not written for that purpose. They do back up doctrine and that is fine. But, some are written purely for praise, containing little doctrine.
> 
> I think each has it's place.



And I would respond yes...but on Sunday morning in church...I think the Lord deserves our best.  Why settle for good when there are so many songs that are great?  Is it because you have an issue with the style?


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## farmasis (Aug 27, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> And I would respond yes...but on Sunday morning in church...I think the Lord deserves our best. Why settle for good when there are so many songs that are great? Is it because you have an issue with the style?


 
So, should we remove songs that have all doctrine and not so much praise?

I think God is interested in hearing my heart.

Sometimes my heart says:

A mighty fortress is our God,
a bulwark never failing;
Our helper he, amid the flood
of mortal ills prevailing:
For still our ancient foe
doth seek to work us woe;
His craft and power are great,
and, armed with cruel hate,
On earth is not his equal.

And sometimes: 

Oh la la la la la...
O pra-ise Him!
O pra-ise Him! 
He is Ho-ly!
He is Ho-ly!
How infininte and sweet
This love so rescuing
Oh how infinitely sweet
This great love that has redeemed
As one, we sing...
"Hallelujah!
Hallelujah!
He is Ho-ly!
He is Ho-ly!"


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## Huntinfool (Aug 27, 2008)

Those are great songs to post as they show the differences in the two "types".

I'm with farmasis on this.  Those are both wonderful songs to sing in praise to God.  Both would be pleasing if coming from a truly worshipful heart.  One is full of biblical truth.  The other, while speaking truth about the Father, is more just the rejoicing of a grateful heart.  I do not think that the Father rejects praise that is the direct result of a worshipful heart.  Thus, the substance is not the issue....people take issue with the style because they don't prefer it and rather than just say that, they reject it as "unbiblical" because if they don't like it then it can't be good.

Ever worship to a song that doesn't have any words at all?  Just a piano, or a guitar...or whatever.  What do we say then?  Since it has no words, it can't possibly be doctrinally sound, can it?


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## Ronnie T (Aug 27, 2008)

I think God would like for us to choose the words by which we worship Him in singing.  Or at least be words of praise that we are comfortable with.

I suspect worshiping thru singing is probably intended as much for us as it is for God.


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## farmasis (Aug 27, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Since it has no words, it can't possibly be doctrinally sound, can it?


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## letsgohuntin (Aug 27, 2008)

*Quick to Judge aren't we...*



SBG said:


> Thanks for this video...it makes my point well better than I ever could.



question for ya... here is the same band doing an old traditional hymn. Is this singer now in good graces since he is doing a traditional song? What changed? it's the same man. Who decides what songs are glorious to God... you? me? the preacher? Jesus? 

You guys should research these singers a little better before brow beating them...they have some pretty serious faith. This particular singer, David Crowder, actually started a church (as a student)when he noticed that HALF of the students at his bible college did not go to church. He saw a need and did something about...how many of us can say that? He tours the country all week, but is back home in Texas at his church every Sunday.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/V-p-XO-_Bwc&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/V-p-XO-_Bwc&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


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## MLCausey (Aug 27, 2008)

Just thought I'd throw in a plug for our praise band at my church.
Here's a prime example of a secular song, if you imagine Christ singing it to us it can be so different! This particular Sunday when Michelle was singing this I had tears streaming down my face because of the immense spirit I felt, I've heard this song so many times but never in this aspect, it was AWESOME!

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/IfmJRCSR1Hw&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/IfmJRCSR1Hw&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


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## SBG (Aug 28, 2008)

*Little judgmental aren't you?*



letsgohuntin said:


> question for ya... here is the same band doing an old traditional hymn. Is this singer now in good graces since he is doing a traditional song? What changed? it's the same man. Who decides what songs are glorious to God... you? me? the preacher? Jesus?
> 
> You guys should research these singers a little better before brow beating them...they have some pretty serious faith. This particular singer, David Crowder, actually started a church (as a student)when he noticed that HALF of the students at his bible college did not go to church. He saw a need and did something about...how many of us can say that? He tours the country all week, but is back home in Texas at his church every Sunday.
> 
> <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/V-p-XO-_Bwc&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/V-p-XO-_Bwc&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>



That is not a traditional old hymn. That song was written by Hank Williams and was released on the same album as 'Honky Tonkin.'

BTW, I didn't see anyone brow beat your referenced singer-only the fact that SOME of his music is biblically inferior. It is so typical of this forum, especially from those that are bit more liberal, to make ad hominem attacks and use hyperbolic statements. 

Also, why are y'all (if the shoe fits wear it) so fast the throw out that "you're judging people" line? I'm sorry if the truth hurts.


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## SBG (Aug 28, 2008)

farmasis said:


> So, it is the style--and not the substance we have a problem with, in regards to most contemporary Christian music.




Actually its more the substance, or the lack thereof, of some of the songs.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 28, 2008)

or the style...


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## rjcruiser (Aug 28, 2008)

farmasis said:


> So, should we remove songs that have all doctrine and not so much praise?
> 
> I think God is interested in hearing my heart.
> 
> ...



Okay...this thread is definitely going down the path of no return and has had a lot of off-beat posts.  But I'll post this and I'm going to temporarily commit to not posting another thing on this thread  

Farm....Huntinfool....ML,
I don't have a problem with contemporary music if it has substance.  I like it a lot...grew up in my Jr High sunday school ministry with it, HS Ministry with it, College Ministry with it...and when I got married, my wife and I chose a sunday school class that had more contemporary music (I grew up at a church that has over 8,000 members so sunday school was like a mini-church service.  It allowed many choices such as contemporary or more traditional during the sunday school hour, and then was more traditional during the main worship service...just a disclaimer/background).  But every song was more than just a "Love Song" that could be sung to your HS sweetheart.  Also, the artist who wrote the song exemplified a solid Christian lifestyle.  

I think that those things are important.  Especially to young folks.  Does the music Glorify God, does the artist's life Glorify God?  That is where I potentially have issues with listening to secular songs that have a good message but are sung by someone whose lifestyle I wouldn't want my kids to imitate.

Yes...drums and electric guitar...preference.  The music turned up more than I like...preference.  Those things...heart issues....do what God has laid on your heart, but don't force it on others.  Substance...Biblical.  Style...Preference.


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## farmasis (Aug 28, 2008)

Can you find me a scripture or an instance when God was praised with substance in the Bible?


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## SBG (Aug 28, 2008)

farmasis said:


> Can you find me a scripture or an instance when God was praised with substance in the Bible?



How are you defining substance?


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## rjcruiser (Aug 28, 2008)

farmasis said:


> Can you find me a scripture or an instance when God was praised with substance in the Bible?



Luke 2:14
"Glory to God in the highest,
         And on earth peace among men [d]with whom He is pleased." 

Rev 4:8-9
8And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say, "HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is THE LORD GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME." 

 9And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever, 


Exodus 15:1-21
 1Then Moses and the sons of Israel sang this song to the LORD, and said,
         "I will sing to the LORD, for He is highly exalted;
         The horse and its rider He has hurled into the sea. 
    2"The LORD is my strength and song,
         And He has become my salvation;
         This is my God, and I will praise Him;
         My father's God, and I will extol Him. 
    3"The LORD is a warrior;
         The LORD is His name. 
    4"Pharaoh's chariots and his army He has cast into the sea;
         And the choicest of his officers are drowned in the [a]Red Sea. 
    5"The deeps cover them;
         They went down into the depths like a stone. 
    6"Your right hand, O LORD, is majestic in power,
         Your right hand, O LORD, shatters the enemy. 
    7"And in the greatness of Your excellence You overthrow those who rise up against You;
         You send forth Your burning anger, and it consumes them as chaff. 
    8"At the blast of Your nostrils the waters were piled up,
         The flowing waters stood up like a heap;
         The deeps were congealed in the heart of the sea. 
    9"The enemy said, 'I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil;
         My desire shall be gratified against them;
         I will draw out my sword, my hand will destroy them.' 
    10"You blew with Your wind, the sea covered them;
         They sank like lead in the mighty waters. 
    11"Who is like You among the gods, O LORD?
         Who is like You, majestic in holiness,
         Awesome in praises, working wonders? 
    12"You stretched out Your right hand,
         The earth swallowed them. 
    13"In Your lovingkindness You have led the people whom You have redeemed;
         In Your strength You have guided them to Your holy habitation. 
    14"The peoples have heard, they tremble;
         Anguish has gripped the inhabitants of Philistia. 
    15"Then the chiefs of Edom were dismayed;
         The leaders of Moab, trembling grips them;
         All the inhabitants of Canaan have melted away. 
    16"Terror and dread fall upon them;
         By the greatness of Your arm they are motionless as stone;
         Until Your people pass over, O LORD,
         Until the people pass over whom You have purchased. 
    17"You will bring them and plant them in the mountain of Your inheritance,
         The place, O LORD, which You have made for Your dwelling,
         The sanctuary, O Lord, which Your hands have established. 
    18"The LORD shall reign forever and ever." 
 19For the horses of Pharaoh with his chariots and his horsemen went into the sea, and the LORD brought back the waters of the sea on them, but the sons of Israel walked on dry land through the midst of the sea. 

 20Miriam the prophetess, Aaron's sister, took the timbrel in her hand, and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dancing. 

 21Miriam answered them,
         "Sing to the LORD, for He is highly exalted;
         The horse and his rider He has hurled into the sea."


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## farmasis (Aug 28, 2008)

SBG said:


> How are you defining substance?


 
Still trying to define that myself.

I just do not think God desires me to sing to him his rules (doctrine). I don't think I should sing anything opposite (unbiblical).

I look at it this way, I am married and the church is the bride of Christ. I don't think my wife wants me to seronade her with verbage from our marriage certificate, but she wants the vows of our marriage stored in my heart and mind. She wants me to tell her how much I love her. She would expect me to sing her a new song every once in a while. I don't think God wants anything different.


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## letsgohuntin (Aug 28, 2008)

SBG said:


> That is not a traditional old hymn. That song was written by Hank Williams and was released on the same album as 'Honky Tonkin.'
> 
> BTW, I didn't see anyone brow beat your referenced singer-only the fact that SOME of his music is biblically inferior. It is so typical of this forum, especially from those that are bit more liberal, to make ad hominem attacks and use hyperbolic statements.
> 
> Also, why are y'all (if the shoe fits wear it) so fast the throw out that "you're judging people" line? I'm sorry if the truth hurts.



Ahh come on now...you can't tell me you've never heard that sung as a gospel song in church??  

Why are we quick to throw out the "judging people line"??Please don't make me go back through all of those posts and reference the conversations of "if it aint gospel it aint holy" posts


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