# Why are many Christians thought to be lost?



## gordon 2 (Jun 17, 2016)

I have noticed in the discussions here lately and mentioned more than once that many Christians don't  know things deemed essential by Christians who seem to think they know better. For example it was said that some Christians "still are after a work based salvation" in congragations that don't teach this, or " Christians don't know to claim healing correctly in many churchs". Etc...

What is going on? Why so many Christians who attend religious services regularly are thought to be out to lunch? Why do Christians think Christians need revival periodically?

It would seem to me that in churches where God does the teaching... which is what Christianity is said to be about regards right knowledge... Christianity would not need a double take, step back to move forward religious doubt?

What gives? Something is not right with Christianity? What is it with Christians always having to question that some Christians don't have it right? How can God teach one man in the same Christian congregation what is just and another  is fooled and both call themselves Christians?

Is Christianity sick? Or is it just another world religion where the exceptions get it? And the others pay the heat?


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## Israel (Jun 17, 2016)

I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. 
The "getting" of anything, as in seeing, is for the health of the whole body.

Sometimes the sharing of what is seen may reveal more about the eyes of the seer, than the significance of the thing seen. But, all things do work together for good, do they not?...(with addenda to statement as necessary.)


Nothing seems to sort me out better than the endeavor to sort others out. Still does. "Hey Lord...what will this man do?"


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## hobbs27 (Jun 17, 2016)

What is going on? Thanks to the information age and internet freedom we all get to read aloud what other denominations would whisper amongst themselves. Don't worry! This process will root out bad doctrine over a shorter amount of time and the Kingdom will gain the benefit! My 2¢ anyway.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 18, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> What is going on? Thanks to the information age and internet freedom we all get to read aloud what other denominations would whisper amongst themselves. Don't worry! This process will root out bad doctrine over a shorter amount of time and the Kingdom will gain the benefit! My 2¢ anyway.




Really! Really!  Information age and internet freedom. This is how it is to play out! Then I suggest that the words of our Lord are of no account, that is that the very root of believers is God Himself as the prophets and Jesus indicate.

Somethin is amiss in Christianity when truth becomes the ball of competitive sport! Christianity is sick when Christians must routinely check on each other on what is truth with a spirit that doubts what God Himself teaches in scripture, let alone what He teaches from within a believer--a saint!  ????

What about this in the makeup of all Christians? Christians with IQs from 25 to 200? Is our baptism, our religion a joke in the world? Just another hodgepodge world religion? :
------------

15If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
---------------------
Is Christianity sick in our times? Is there an illness, a sick spirit in Christianity in our times? Have we returned to teaching ourselves as the ancients did, and ourselves made new Tower of Babel, in lieu of the natural course of our born again spirituality where God is our most esteemed Comforter?

Has Jesus made us ( Christians)  all seers, yet we prefer to disregard this and hound each other that some of us though His will once blind that now we see, we doubt this and yet some are still blind? Where-who is our pride? We demand that a sister declare she is born again as we are, yet we doubt who is teaching her? And therefore who teaches us?

 Him in us or us homesick for the world which for Him we will never again belong to? Are our judgements from Him or the world?

Somethin is amiss in the state of our Kingdom. Someone, some thing, some spirit is teaching us on Christianity and it is not Him? Or it is true Christianity is just another world religion and I'm just as lost a anything and anyone else in the world. The Jews were right-- He is not come yet. Jesus just does not fit as Him nor does this Comforter the holy man raved and his decieved followers talked about.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 18, 2016)

I see nothing amiss. I see nothing different than times past other than a problem is being rooted out faster due to technology.

 This problem you call sickness has always been around, but now it's more exposed.


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## formula1 (Jun 18, 2016)

*re:*

Thinking one is a believer does not a believer make, nor does saying a prayer or reciting some words. Plenty of folks will do that in hope of a free ticket! But the soil is rocky and the plant without root.

Walking in the Spirit in submission to the Master is quite another thing altogether!  Its about one who sold everything to buy the field. You shall know these by their fruit! God bless!


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## gordon 2 (Jun 18, 2016)

formula1 said:


> Thinking one is a believer does not a believer make, nor does saying a prayer or reciting some words. Plenty of folks will do that in hope of a free ticket! But the soil is rocky and the plant without root.
> 
> Walking in the Spirit in submission to the Master is quite another thing altogether!  Its about one who sold everything to buy the field. You shall know these by their fruit! God bless!



So you are saying ( I don't want to put words in your mouth) that some pilgrims in the pews next to you, some who attend bible study ever week for yrs, who were baptised, who claim salvation, who say they are born again believers might just be deceived... and that includes you  and me, the preacher and his wife, my next door neighbour and everyone else with them?

 Why do you judge me as miscarried in Christ ?  As I tell you I never bought no field, but took my rest in one given to me. Why do we doubt our fruits, our graft?  I count and recount them for decrease or increase as if I have a bank in my heart? I never doubt someone just going through the motions... as what is a dance to one might just be a man letting go of his crutches.

If I sin tomorrow and seek you for help that I am besides myself in fret that I have injured my relationship with my maker-- would you account my faith up until then as just going through the motions, empty prayers were mine, that the word of God had never penetrated my being? Would you buy my world so I could buy a field as yours? Would you doubt my faith as a Christian even if you knew I had a field such as yours? Would you even then keep and eye on my fruit trees and compare my harvest to yours-- and so my Christ vs yours? In Christ do we question who really is our Father--that we might not have the same one? That in Christ one of us is saying Lord, Lord in vain due that it is possible to go through the motions in our common religion, that one of us calling themselves Christian is in fact not at all one...?

So one can never be sure of one being saved and to Christ?


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## Israel (Jun 18, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> So you are saying ( I don't want to put words in your mouth) that some pilgrims in the pews next to you, some who attend bible study ever week for yrs, who were baptised, who claim salvation, who say they are born again believers might just be deceived... and that includes you  and me, the preacher and his wife, my next door neighbour and everyone else with them?
> 
> Why do you judge me as miscarried in Christ ?  As I tell you I never bought no field, but took my rest in one given to me. Why do we doubt our fruits, our graft?  I count and recount them for decrease or increase as if I have a bank in my heart? I never doubt someone just going through the motions... as what is a dance to one might just be a man letting go of his crutches.
> 
> If I sin tomorrow and seek you for help that I am besides myself in fret that I have injured my relationship with my maker-- would you account my faith up until then as just going through the motions, empty prayers were mine, that the word of God had never penetrated my being? Would you buy my world so I could buy a field as yours? Would you doubt my faith as a Christian even if you knew I had a field such as yours? Would you even then keep and eye on my fruit trees and compare my harvest to yours-- and so my Christ vs yours? In Christ do we question who really is our Father--that we might not have the same one? That in Christ one of us is saying Lord, Lord in vain due that it is possible to go through the motions in our common religion, that one of us calling themselves Christian is in fact not at all one...?




<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/DP5-qJSzDUg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe


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## Big7 (Jun 18, 2016)

It's called The Reformation.

EVERYBODY get's to do "their" own interpretation 
of The Bible.

Many schisms even since then have watered it down
to where every church (except one) has no leadership or
teaching body and no unity.

There's your problem, plain and simple.


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## welderguy (Jun 18, 2016)

I think John the baptist said it best."He must increase,and I must decrease."
My point is there is man-based religion and there is God-based religion.
They each butt heads constantly to the point that it looks like total confusion and "sickness" to the apathetic or lukewarm.

But,isn't the lukewarm the worst condition?

Let us stop honoring ourselves and give it all to Him.


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## Israel (Jun 18, 2016)

Keep watch over yourselves and the entire flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood. I know that after my departure, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number, men will rise up and distort the truth to draw away disciples after them.…


So...Paul saw that even those appointed would succumb to a thing...and was not afraid to say it.
To which all God's people say yepper dooley


Faith is for...amongst other things...







testing.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 18, 2016)

Big7 said:


> It's called The Reformation.
> 
> EVERYBODY get's to do "their" own interpretation
> of The Bible.
> ...



 There. There it is!


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## Big7 (Jun 18, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> There. There it is!



You are always ready to get in there hobbs..

Now that we are here, SHOW me where I'm wrong.
PLEASE!


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## gordon 2 (Jun 18, 2016)

Big7 said:


> You are always ready to get in there hobbs..
> 
> Now that we are here, SHOW me where I'm wrong.
> PLEASE!



Now! Now Brother! Cast no stones,  and tempt no saint to throw some. That's old religion. If not in scripture, it must be in tradition somewhere.... 

I know for a fact that some on your team were just if not more as puritanical as the other team at different times in its history. I'm not pointing out one tradition vs another. But is seems that everyone, including Caths these days want to re-evangelize? What is up....? The teacher was somehow sub-par in the past?



Isreal has offered peanuts, have some---settle in you seat for divine poetry... 


Your point like mine is that Christianity is sick... Ok if someone gets tuberculosis we don't blame them for it... we try to get them back to health. I don't for a second pretend that I'm the doctor and that I am not the sickest. ( I might just be.)  However I try to cleave to Christ, not doctrine even the ones on my team. Christ first. Kingdom second. Everyone, everything fall in line. 

You?

We all doubt other Christians as if the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost were not our teachers! Yet most of us recognize baptism! And the Father, the Son and Holy Ghost, especially the Holy Ghost as the teacher of truth.! What is the spirit that sets us up to doubt Christ in all denominations regardless of cause--- what is it?


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## gordon 2 (Jun 18, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> There. There it is!



Hobbs, play rope a dope.  Let him flail away, his arms will tire. LOL... Take it on both cheeks... I'll chip in on an ice maker if it gets too bruising....  and in a clinch don't bite back please. LOL


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## gordon 2 (Jun 18, 2016)

Israel said:


> Keep watch over yourselves and the entire flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood. I know that after my departure, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number, men will rise up and distort the truth to draw away disciples after them.…
> 
> 
> So...Paul saw that even those appointed would succumb to a thing...and was not afraid to say it.
> ...



This is true Isreal. But low, it is my experience that the Holy Spirit shows up even in the congregations drawn away--- as if out of Egypt the Lord hears the people's prayers and shows up... and the people not only end up good as pagans are good, but know to love the Lord as Christ loved them.

What do you think?


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## formula1 (Jun 18, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> So you are saying ( I don't want to put words in your mouth) that some pilgrims in the pews next to you, some who attend bible study ever week for yrs, who were baptised, who claim salvation, who say they are born again believers might just be deceived... and that includes you  and me, the preacher and his wife, my next door neighbour and everyone else with them?
> 
> Why do you judge me as miscarried in Christ ?  As I tell you I never bought no field, but took my rest in one given to me. Why do we doubt our fruits, our graft?  I count and recount them for decrease or increase as if I have a bank in my heart? I never doubt someone just going through the motions... as what is a dance to one might just be a man letting go of his crutches.
> 
> ...



None of the above.  Simply saying:

Has the righteousness of Christ been imputed to your account?
Are you lead by the Spirit?
Do you live in Christ and for Him?
Does He know you?

If so, then be assured!!!  And Abide in Him!


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## Israel (Jun 18, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> This is true Isreal. But low, it is my experience that the Holy Spirit shows up even in the congregations drawn away--- as if out of Egypt the Lord hears the people's prayers and shows up... and the people not only end up good as pagans are good, but know to love the Lord as Christ loved them.
> 
> What do you think?




I am not at all sure Paul was implying (and I know I was not) that the whole of a congregation would be surrendered. I am not even sure that those led away are beyond returning...nor even those that have done the mis-leading. There is a thing that _must_ happen in the sowing of the word of God. 
Though it may, on the face, and even according its own deception of plan, seem to be for a destruction, it is for a disclosure. Revelation. Light. (John surely understood it also)
Jesus spoke of it, and I believe Paul came to know it. Something is always following _after_ the Word.


Who doesn't _want to be_ the good ground?
It may well be that the way to this is by first imagining we, ourselves, are. Or that _we may resolve ourselves_ to be.
Plowing. Burning. Cutting down and pruning. Rooting up. Compost prepared. Stuff we once gloried in, shriveled and dead, rotting into the soil...to give life.
And something else...grows...there, then?

And we know we are but soil, or clay pot...and...it is enough to behold the Life.


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## Big7 (Jun 18, 2016)

*Ok then..*

No need for ice. Just facts.
I'll leave you with this:

If you are a Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex- monk of the Catholic Church, in the year 1517.

If you belong to the Church of England, your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the Pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.

  If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded by John Knox in Scotland in the year 1560.

If you are a Protestant Episcopalian, your religion was an offshoot of the Church of England founded by Samuel Seabury in the American colonies in the 17th century.

If you are a Congregationalist, your religion was originated by Robert Brown in Holland in 1582.

If you are a Methodist, your religion was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.

 If you are a Unitarian, Theophilus Lindley founded your church in London in 1774.

If you are a Mormon (Latter Day Saints), Joseph Smith started your religion in Palmyra, N.Y., in 1829.

If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1605.

If you are of the Dutch Reformed church, you recognize Michaelis Jones as founder, because he originated your religion in New York in 1628.

If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.

If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year in which your religion was born and to Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy as its founder.

If you belong to one of the religious organizations known as ‘Church of the Nazarene,” “Pentecostal Gospel.” “Holiness Church,” “Pilgrim Holiness Church,” “Jehovah’s Witnesses,” your religion is one of the hundreds of new sects founded by men within the past century.



 If you are Catholic, you know that your religion was founded in the year 33 by Jesus Christ the Son of God, and it is still the same Church.

Now, ya'll have fun now, ya' hear.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 18, 2016)

Jesus is Greater!


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## Israel (Jun 19, 2016)

Big7 said:


> No need for ice. Just facts.
> I'll leave you with this:
> 
> If you are a Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex- monk of the Catholic Church, in the year 1517.
> ...


This _kind of thinking_ is not reserved to any particular sect, it is precisely this kind of thinking that leads to the joy of sects in the first place.
The: "I have" the right or better God, the right or better view, the right or better religion, the right or better congregation, theology, experience...etc. 


As if God doesn't see that vain little impetus that wants to present itself as "being right with God", when it is quite opposed to the Lord in all ways. 

The self thinks its motives are subtle, hidden, difficult to discern...nuanced. In truth, a man may delight in imagining himself _complex_. While all others appear simpletons. And, this too, shall pass.

The utter inarticulate simplicity of "ouch", to which a man may be reduced, is a great help in sweeping away grandiose imaginings. The intensity and duration of this course of treatment is at the physician's prescribing.


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## hummerpoo (Jun 19, 2016)

Israel said:


> This _kind of thinking_ is not reserved to any particular sect, it is precisely this kind of thinking that leads to the joy of sects in the first place.
> The: "I have" the right or better God, the right or better view, the right or better religion, the right or better congregation, theology, experience...etc.
> 
> 
> ...


And, when/if we ... certainly when I ... manage to, somehow, to some degree, succeed in thinking about a question from the perspective of another, self-adulation inevitably follows ... OUCH!


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## Israel (Jun 19, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> And, when/if we ... certainly when I ... manage to, somehow, to some degree, succeed in thinking about a question from the perspective of another, self-adulation inevitably follows ... OUCH!



LOL...assigned ouches are ours!
Faithful are the wounds of a friend.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 19, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> And, when/if we ... certainly when I ... manage to, somehow, to some degree, succeed in thinking about a question from the perspective of another, self-adulation inevitably follows ... OUCH!




I have always been under the belief that good historians succeed most when they place themselves in the perspective of another and proceed from what is common with all others. And to historians of politics and spirituality this applies. It is their shared perspectives--apprehended relationships- that inform our consciousness regards the past. 

I do not pride myself in my belief--my understanding- on a whole set of men and women who make up my past and my present from a close reading of their perspectives. It suffices to pride myself to know the truth to the best of my abilities in the perspectives of my Lord regards His creations. He put Himself in our boots in Egypt, before and beyond. He walked with us so we could walk with Him.

Happy Father's day if it applies Bros.

Why do Christians worry that other Christians are not "saved" or seriously lacking in understanding when the whole point of Christian spirituality which seems to me to stand apart from other world religions  is that the Holy Spirit( God) is the teacher and not man? Should I doubt that God is your teacher? And by implication that you are a slave of the world--yet you call yourself Christian? If so. Why? ( I value your insights.)

So far we came up with the ideas:

1.Work based salvation is still a present belief in the church and it is in error.

2. From the origins of scripture Paul says that some saints will be "drawn away" by men...that they will follow.

3. The many differing Christian denominations and differing doctrines account that Christians  suspect each other.

4. Intrinsic in man is man based religion vs God-based religion and these are ever in conflict.

5. People ( Christians) don't submit easily to God as master.

6. _________________???


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## gordon 2 (Jun 19, 2016)

Israel said:


> LOL...assigned ouches are ours!
> Faithful are the wound of a fsriend.



Context, context!

Proverbs 27:6King James Version (KJV)

6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.




Also I liked your post the Joy of Sects. Happy Father's day bros.


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## Israel (Jun 19, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> I have always been under the belief that good historians succeed most when they place themselves in the perspective of another and proceed from what is common with all others. And to historians of politics and spirituality this applies. It is their shared perspectives--apprehended relationships- that inform our consciousness regards the past.
> 
> I do not pride myself in my belief--my understanding- on a whole set of men and women who make up my past and my present from a close reading of their perspectives. It suffices to pride myself to know the truth to the best of my abilities in the perspectives of my Lord regards His creations. He put Himself in our boots in Egypt, before and beyond. He walked with us so we could walk with Him.
> 
> ...



When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail


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## hobbs27 (Jun 19, 2016)

A Friend of mine said this today concerning a comment by another .

Comment : It is the neglect of the Bible which makes so many a prey to the first false teacher whom they hear.


Response: Attaining truth and wisdom requires a grace imbued fear of God, continuous study of the Holy Bible, and an inveterate habit of doubt, research, verification and the humility to listen to others in a dispassionate and objective way with an indefatigable desire to upgrade one's understanding.

I love it!


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## gordon 2 (Jun 19, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> A Friend of mine said this today concerning a comment by another .
> 
> Comment : It is the neglect of the Bible which makes so many a prey to the first false teacher whom they hear.
> 
> ...



A habit of doubt in attaining truth... Now that is interesting.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 19, 2016)

Israel said:


> When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail



Yes. Yes. We have lots of causes, but nothing on the problem itself as defining it. What do the causes create that we doubt each other in Christ?

I suppose we all have our tumpers which seem a remedy, but what really is the nature of the maladie first that causes doubt in Christ? Why do we doubt Christ, the Father and the Holy Spirit teaching the saints? I am all for someone admitting ignorance, healthy ignorance as in not knowing, but not doubt as in mistrusting... yet we do exactly this in Christianity.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_instrument


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## Israel (Jun 19, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> Yes. Yes. We have lots of causes, but nothing on the problem itself as defining it. What do the causes create that we doubt each other in Christ?
> 
> I suppose we all have our tumpers which seem a remedy, but what really is the nature of the maladie first that causes doubt in Christ? Why do we doubt Christ, the Father and the Holy Spirit teaching the saints? I am all for someone admitting ignorance, healthy ignorance as in not knowing, but not doubt as in mistrusting... yet we do exactly this in Christianity.
> 
> ...


Meat man.


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## RH Clark (Jun 19, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> Yes. Yes. We have lots of causes, but nothing on the problem itself as defining it. What do the causes create that we doubt each other in Christ?
> 
> I suppose we all have our tumpers which seem a remedy, but what really is the nature of the maladie first that causes doubt in Christ? Why do we doubt Christ, the Father and the Holy Spirit teaching the saints? I am all for someone admitting ignorance, healthy ignorance as in not knowing, but not doubt as in mistrusting... yet we do exactly this in Christianity.
> 
> ...




I've never really doubted the salvation of anyone claiming to be a Christian, especially based on their different doctrines.

What I do see is people who have followed traditions of men more so than the Word of God. Jesus did tell us that there is one thing more powerful than God's word when he said "By your traditions you make the Word of God to no effect."

If I'm trying to teach something, I'm more so trying to open people up to experiencing more of what God has for them. I'm not trying to correct them so they can be saved. The only way I would do that is if they claimed a different way than Jesus Christ, and even then I could only share as much as they would receive.

I may argue and discuss with my fellow Christians differences in doctrine but I don't doubt their salvation.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 19, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> I've never really doubted the salvation of anyone claiming to be a Christian, especially based on their different doctrines.
> 
> What I do see is people who have followed traditions of men more so than the Word of God. Jesus did tell us that there is one thing more powerful than God's word when he said "By your traditions you make the Word of God to no effect."
> 
> ...



 Amen! Worthy of repeating.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 19, 2016)

I do not think that any Christian is lost. I do think that a very large number of those who profess to be Christians are lost.


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## Israel (Jun 20, 2016)

Hating ones own (imagined) good intentions is no less worthy than seeking the Lord for deliverance from those things made palpably clear as sin.

It may be revealed there only One has good intentions toward us.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 20, 2016)

Israel said:


> Hating ones own (imagined) good intentions is no less worthy than seeking the Lord for deliverance from those things made palpably clear as sin.
> 
> It may be revealed there only One has good intentions toward us.


I try to beat my imagined good intentions into submission. It is like a perpetual round of Whack-A-Mole.
I am cramping up, but even cramps serve a purpose.


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## welderguy (Jun 20, 2016)

Jesus is the Door of the sheepfold.
Many are trying to climb up by some other way.


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## Israel (Jun 20, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> I try to beat my imagined good intentions into submission. It is like a perpetual round of Whack-A-Mole.
> I am cramping up, but even cramps serve a purpose.



One man reads Paul.

Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

He muses. I too want to be a helper. To be a help is a good thing. I want to do this good thing. I will do what I see to help. Paul taught, I will teach. Paul preached, I will preach. Paul went to jail, I will go to jail. Paul was vilified, I shall also be vilified.

But then he reads further. (or better...has discovered he is being "read" as he himself reads...someone is probing him, as he probes another)

And do count all things loss. 

And he can't deny it...that in his previous walk...there is something he never counted loss. He didn't make himself see it, he didn't set out to know it, he didn't even know this unseen thing would be counted as something to consider loss. But now, he can't deny it. He is forced to see it. He is shown it plain as day...right there. This...thing. How could he miss it? How did he miss it? As stuck to him as its always been...it should have been the plainest of all things "about him" (even round about him)...and now in light he sees...this "thing"...even a thing he "preached about" "taught about"...repeated Jesus's own words...about. But it's there, in all its inglorious stink.
Its wretched manifestation of all that would seek to hide the Lord.
And he can't deny it.
And maybe there be begins to see the salvation he wanted to "help everyone else with" in his setting out to do a good thing. And he knows...he must be saved.
From even thinking he could ever do a good thing.

The soul, when found with its hand in the cookie jar may discover there is a better way than excuse. It might learn the salvation of coming clean. It might even learn being made clean is all about now being made able to come clean.

It costs nothing to speak the truth, for the awful price of it has been paid.
An odor. Emitted. Now unmistakable. In words.
Two flowers. One, the rose men delight in.
The other repulsive to man, known by botanists as "carrion" flowers...emitting the smell of rotting flesh.

Which nose is to be served?
The nose of man? "I was just trying to help..." (now meekly withdrawing hand from cookie jar)

Ahhh who doesn't, hasn't, succombed to that sweet fragrance? Till it is revealed...

Or the truth...whose odor among men is repulsive, but elsewhere a nose seeks it out relentlessly.
"I was just trying to help...myself".


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## gordon 2 (Jun 20, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> I've never really doubted the salvation of anyone claiming to be a Christian, especially based on their different doctrines.
> 
> What I do see is people who have followed traditions of men more so than the Word of God. Jesus did tell us that there is one thing more powerful than God's word when he said "By your traditions you make the Word of God to no effect."
> 
> ...



Amen!


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 20, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> I do not think that any Christian is lost. I do think that a very large number of those who profess to be Christians are lost.


There is only one that can discern the difference.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 20, 2016)

I'm starting to lean towards everyone getting into the New Jerusalem. Maybe "all" really does mean all. 

Romans 14:11
“For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”


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## Israel (Jun 20, 2016)

Let them grow together...


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## gordon 2 (Jun 20, 2016)

So what I'm getting here, with the exception of two perhaps, is that faith is independent of belief and/or doctrine. And therefore all Christain are saved by definition of faith which does not include the influences of doctrines or beliefs.

And, since faith is separate from doctrines for some, yet for for some so named Christians are deceived having added to salvation elements ( doctrines-beliefs) never intended and therefore they are yet confused and yet also lost... ( possibly in the world yet.)


 Whereas the other view is that belief and doctrine are essential to faith so that faith can become in fact itself. And, therefore only those of specific beliefs or doctrine are saved by definition  of faith. ( A crass way of saying this is perhaps that only the elect get the full meal deal-- the rest might just have an entre and a few condiments...)  


So do we have two views of faith in Christianity accounting for why we brawl that some of us are but white washed by name only-- that in fact some adhere to a foreign religion.  

???? Grace has not parceled out faith equally within the body? Is the Holy Spirit teaching two-three different things to the saints regards faith?


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## Israel (Jun 20, 2016)

You set up what sounds a false dichotomy.
The elect...and some others, though still of family. Some "lesser" believer, to my ear...anyway...





> the _elect_ get the full meal deal...but...



Am I hearing you rightly?


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## gordon 2 (Jun 20, 2016)

Israel said:


> You set up what sounds a false dichotomy.
> The elect...and some others, though still of family. Some "lesser" believer, to my ear...anyway...
> 
> Am I hearing you rightly?



I'm trying to summarize a view--to the best of my ability and without bias-- yet it may not be my view at all in the case... 

It seems to me now that "the family" might just depend on the definition of faith, whether it includes doctrine and belief as essential feature of faith.

For example Paul and Peter, it might be fair to say,( I might err on this)  did not always have the same doctrine, but they shared the same faith. In their case doctrine did not separate them for the belief that one or the other was not in Christ ( therefore not elect) and not what today we would call both real Christians being informed by the Holy Spirit.

Yet today because of differing beliefs some will say that large numbers of  Christians in their very denominations are not Christians, and not only in other denominations! That the Holy Spirit is teaching dependent on belief and doctrine.  Every group, including mine, seems to be indicating that the other groups in some ways have lost their way....regardless of reasons...

Somethin is not right with the picture... in a spiritual tradition that prides itself on being thought by God?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 20, 2016)

I would think that if one had to believe it happens a certain way then the Holy Spirit would reveal it a certain way.


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## Israel (Jun 20, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> Somethin is not right with the picture... in a spiritual tradition that prides itself on being thought by God?



Why does all you say (and might be troubled over...I don't know) seem perfectly fitting with that?


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 20, 2016)

Israel said:


> Why does all you say (and might be troubled over...I don't know) seem perfectly fitting with that?



Exactly. Proverbs 11:2


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## RH Clark (Jun 20, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> I'm trying to summarize a view--to the best of my ability and without bias-- yet it may not be my view at all in the case...
> 
> It seems to me now that "the family" might just depend on the definition of faith, whether it includes doctrine and belief as essential feature of faith.
> 
> ...



What I see as a major problem is complete rejection of other denominations and any of their doctrine because of basically small differences. We seem to major in the minor and elevate it rather than elevating those things we do agree on. If we would just start with "Jesus is Lord", and go from there then we might actually learn from each other and grow as God intends.

From what little I know about different denominations it seems to me that each one has something the other would benefit from. I don't see any person or group as having complete truth and all knowledge concerning God. I'm not saying that we should accept every doctrine or tradition of each other, but neither do we need to throw the baby out with the bath water so to speak. There are things we could all learn from each other.

I think Paul spoke of it when he penned these words. I don't think this only applies to individuals, and even if it does, I don't think Paul meant it to only apply within specific groups and denominations to the exclusion of any whom we deem as somehow less.

Corinthians 12:12-27King James Version (KJV)
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.

15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 20, 2016)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Exactly. Proverbs 11:2



Proverbs 11:2King James Version (KJV)

2 When pride cometh, then cometh shame: but with the lowly is wisdom.

Blessed are the lowly, they that teach themselves with their own hearts?

Don't think so.... That's not the way God teaches. And if Gordo will have pride in my King, well so be it... Gentlemen choose your kingdoms... 

But seriously, are you saying that the Holy Spirit's ministry in Christianity is a vain boast of our religious tradition?


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## gordon 2 (Jun 20, 2016)

Israel said:


> Why does all you say (and might be troubled over...I don't know) seem perfectly fitting with that?



Meat? Maybe...


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## gordon 2 (Jun 20, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> What I see as a major problem is complete rejection of other denominations and any of their doctrine because of basically small differences. We seem to major in the minor and elevate it rather than elevating those things we do agree on. If we would just start with "Jesus is Lord", and go from there then we might actually learn from each other and grow as God intends.
> 
> From what little I know about different denominations it seems to me that each one has something the other would benefit from. I don't see any person or group as having complete truth and all knowledge concerning God. I'm not saying that we should accept every doctrine or tradition of each other, but neither do we need to throw the baby out with the bath water so to speak. There are things we could all learn from each other.
> 
> ...



 This  seems sound doctrine in the context you say? But... bet you someone's faith will make them disagree or challenge it.

Well I think you guys have had enough of my ravings for awhile...on this topic... and I thank everyone who responded, especially the ones who think I'm not to be taken seriously.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 20, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> But seriously, are you saying that the Holy Spirit's ministry in Christianity is a vain boast of our religious tradition?



It would appear some arrogantly treat it that way. Of course appearances can be deceiving, especially over the sterile medium of the internet.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 20, 2016)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> There is only one that can discern the difference.


I do not always discern the difference, but I often do.


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