# I wonder



## Terminal Idiot (Dec 21, 2013)

I wonder... Does the bible address:

Where does the soul, or spirit - the thing that supposedly goes to heaven - come from? Is it eternal - always been around? Or does god create a new one at each time of conception? It seems odd to me that a god would create a soul/spirit, put it in a human form, make it praise and worship, judge it, give it a thumbs up or down, then send it off to some other place for an eternity. I can't wrap my head around the idea of creating something, sending it off, making it prove it's worth, just so it will eventually come back to wherever I am. Why the middle man? 

Thanks for your input.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 21, 2013)

Terminal Idiot said:


> I wonder... Does the bible address:
> 
> Where does the soul, or spirit - the thing that supposedly goes to heaven - come from? Is it eternal - always been around? Or does god create a new one at each time of conception? It seems odd to me that a god would create a soul/spirit, put it in a human form, make it praise and worship, judge it, give it a thumbs up or down, then send it off to some other place for an eternity. I can't wrap my head around the idea of creating something, sending it off, making it prove it's worth, just so it will eventually come back to wherever I am. Why the middle
> man?
> ...



Interesting thought. I had a similar notion about "soul usage" back in the day.

You ask 10 people what the Bible says on the Internet and you may get 9 conflicting answers and a fist fight.  That's not a reflection on the Bible, but us.  
With respect, my fallible view is that hope permeates the Bible, foreclosing the 
possibility of a futile, meaningless life for a mere middle man.

The point of the 66 books is God humbled Himself to bear our problems on 
Himself, sparing us from a waiting eternal judgment.  It is much richer than this, of course.

The soul ... man's eternal spirit, made and given us by God, which won't end and instead will live on forever ... can be assured eternal life in heaven with God 
through belief in man's unearned salvation of and through Jesus Christ, the Son of God.  Part of the Good News in Christ is this isn't about the soul container measuring up, or being good enough, rich enough, smart enough -- whatever, enough -- to be with God forever.  Rather, belief in the Word is a free gift,available to all, for the specific purpose of routing and using souls for the Glory of God.  It's about looking up, not measuring up.  Christ's unmerited Forgiveness of our sins reconciles our imperfect souls to God.


Time is short. Judgment truly awaits each soul. The sentence has already been imposed upon souls found unrighteous...that is, without the righteousness of Christ.  That is the only difference.  Some believe, most do not.  Those poor souls
not saved by Christ will spend eternity apart from God, separated as they were here on earth during their lives, in he77.  A soul is a terrible thing to waste.  So in God's efficiency, it [the da--ing of the unrighteous] operates also to His Glory. His righteousness, will and judgment are perfect.  So He is glorified by receiving righteous souls into Heaven, and condemning the rest to he77.

So in closing that is a basic overview of what I think tbe Bible says about your soul questions, if I read them correctly.  I think the idea of soul usage and destination, as well as what's it all about here, are all worthy pursuits. I do think tbe Bible speaks to your questions, though not precisely in the manner you may expect. You may be pleasantly surprised.  We have an incomprehensibly merciful, loving God who purposed each day of your life, and your soul's ultimate destination, before He formed the foundations of the earth.  Pretty wild.

'Tis the season to ponder the reason.  Blessings!


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## ambush80 (Dec 21, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> Interesting thought. I had a similar notion about "soul usage" back in the day.
> 
> You ask 10 people what the Bible says on the Internet and you may get 9 conflicting answers and a fist fight.  That's not a reflection on the Bible, but us.
> With respect, my fallible view is that hope permeates the Bible, foreclosing the
> ...



What I believe he's saying is "You have to pass it to see what's in it".


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## Terminal Idiot (Dec 22, 2013)

Thank you for the response, but it doesn't really answer the question. 

What I am getting at is: why create a "man"? Why give that man a soul? Why not just create the soul. And what is the purpose in the long run? Why is god creating these souls that may/may not end up where he is? Is this god bored and needs entertainment. Does he need friends? Someone to play chess with? Why would a god create a less than perfect being just to watch it struggle?

Here is an analogy. Let's say you are an all seeing, all knowing, all powerful super dude and you are stranded on an island. Alone in the vastness. You get the notion that you want to fill your island with others and you create them in your image. But instead of just putting them on your island so you can hang out and be bros - you put them on that other island far off in the distance. You mandate them to worship you for 90 years and be good all the time, before they can come crack coconuts with you on your island. So....... Why create a being just to send them to the other island? Why not create your friend and let him be on your island from the start? After all, you created him. If he is not worthy of building sand castles with you on your island, isn't that your fault? He was, after all, your design.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 22, 2013)

> why create a "man"? Why give that man a soul? Why not just create the soul


A person who believes the entire story is man made might say a soul can't go to work and give the church money so it can afford to spread its word which makes the church more powerful and be able to build more churches and spread more of its word so that it gets more money so that.......
A physical man is essential to the business plan. Just a thought.


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## bullethead (Dec 22, 2013)

Terminal Idiot said:


> Thank you for the response, but it doesn't really answer the question.
> 
> What I am getting at is: why create a "man"? Why give that man a soul? Why not just create the soul. And what is the purpose in the long run? Why is god creating these souls that may/may not end up where he is? Is this god bored and needs entertainment. Does he need friends? Someone to play chess with? Why would a god create a less than perfect being just to watch it struggle?
> 
> Here is an analogy. Let's say you are an all seeing, all knowing, all powerful super dude and you are stranded on an island. Alone in the vastness. You get the notion that you want to fill your island with others and you create them in your image. But instead of just putting them on your island so you can hang out and be bros - you put them on that other island far off in the distance. You mandate them to worship you for 90 years and be good all the time, before they can come crack coconuts with you on your island. So....... Why create a being just to send them to the other island? Why not create your friend and let him be on your island from the start? After all, you created him. If he is not worthy of building sand castles with you on your island, isn't that your fault? He was, after all, your design.



Because that is how the others on that far away island deal with the fact that someday they are going to die.

See it is not the super dude that created the others....it is the others that created the super dude. They have to constantly make excuses, no matter how elaborate and ridiculous, in order to convince themselves that there really is a super dude on an island that wants them to visit him.

In the meantime on the Island there are people that have figured out how to use the beliefs and fears of the islanders in order to cash in.


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## ddd-shooter (Dec 23, 2013)

Terminal Idiot said:


> Thank you for the response, but it doesn't really answer the question.
> 
> What I am getting at is: why create a "man"? Why give that man a soul? Why not just create the soul. And what is the purpose in the long run? Why is god creating these souls that may/may not end up where he is? Is this god bored and needs entertainment. Does he need friends? Someone to play chess with? Why would a god create a less than perfect being just to watch it struggle?
> 
> Here is an analogy. Let's say you are an all seeing, all knowing, all powerful super dude and you are stranded on an island. Alone in the vastness. You get the notion that you want to fill your island with others and you create them in your image. But instead of just putting them on your island so you can hang out and be bros - you put them on that other island far off in the distance. You mandate them to worship you for 90 years and be good all the time, before they can come crack coconuts with you on your island. So....... Why create a being just to send them to the other island? Why not create your friend and let him be on your island from the start? After all, you created him. If he is not worthy of building sand castles with you on your island, isn't that your fault? He was, after all, your design.



Adam and Eve. The garden of Eden. We were on that same island with God. 
Christians believe WE banished ourselves to that far away island by choosing our own will over God's.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 23, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> Adam and Eve. The garden of Eden. We were on that same island with God.
> Christians believe WE banished ourselves to that far away island by choosing our own will over God's.



I do believe man did that. What I don't understand is God already knew we would do that and had a plan. His Son would become the much needed ark/ship to return to God's island. He already knew who would return.
Yet I'm silly enough to believe I have a choice.


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## 660griz (Dec 24, 2013)

Why not have everyone speak the same language you have your book written in?
Why flood the earth when you could just snap your fingers and have everything die and start over?
Why have the earth spin? Why have a sun? How about light, 12 hours a day, every day? No explanation of where the light comes from. 
How long did God sit around before he got bored enough to create something? 
Why didn't God just write a book himself, have the commandments chiseled in mountain faces all over the world? 
Why not go to the extra effort to save the ones he supposedly loves instead of leaving it up to man to do?
Why not intervene one time in a war unjustly fought in his name? Pop up an instant wall between armies and scream, NO, NO, NO! I think one time would probably do it. 
Why not make all humans the same color? Why make a food chain? 
Why make us have to eat, get diseases, go crazy, at all?
Why not allow us to live forever on earth until we believe in him, then...poof, off to heaven, (a much better place).


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## ambush80 (Dec 24, 2013)

660griz said:


> Why not have everyone speak the same language you have your book written in?
> Why flood the earth when you could just snap your fingers and have everything die and start over?
> Why have the earth spin? Why have a sun? How about light, 12 hours a day, every day? No explanation of where the light comes from.
> How long did God sit around before he got bored enough to create something?
> ...



The answer to this is "because that's how He wanted to do it.  Who are you to say how He should have done it?  You can't see the entirety of the Master Plan."   I have to admit, it's a sound argument; the deck stacked 'just so' with no way to lose.  (Assuming a "He").


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## 660griz (Dec 24, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> The answer to this is "because that's how He wanted to do it.  Who are you to say how He should have done it?  You can't see the entirety of the Master Plan."   I have to admit, it's a sound argument; the deck stacked 'just so' with no way to lose.  (Assuming a "He").



Exactly. God's will. I often ask, "Why pray?" God is going to do what he wants anyway.
Oh well.


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## centerpin fan (Dec 24, 2013)

660griz said:


> I often ask, "Why pray?"



The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. -- James 5:16


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## 660griz (Dec 24, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. -- James 5:16



“If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer” (Matthew 21:22)

And if you don't receive it? You don't believe. Right?

Oh, and MERRY CHRISTMAS to all!


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## ambush80 (Dec 24, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. -- James 5:16



"Yes, No or Wait".

Can't lose.


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## bullethead (Dec 24, 2013)

Adam should have written the Bible, it may have been a little closer to what God intended.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 24, 2013)

Man is a soul. Otherwise man would be just another animal. Goggle soul.

Man, as a mamal, is a lousy one, mediocre at best, and as a soul still evolving. As a soul man is still at the "why" stage. The next one is probably the "why not" stage. I'm waiting.


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## ddd-shooter (Dec 24, 2013)

660griz said:


> Why not have everyone speak the same language you have your book written in?
> Why flood the earth when you could just snap your fingers and have everything die and start over?
> Why have the earth spin? Why have a sun? How about light, 12 hours a day, every day? No explanation of where the light comes from.
> How long did God sit around before he got bored enough to create something?
> ...



Most of these can be answered with the fall of man. 
Others, free will of man.
Science will tell you if our natural world were different by only a fraction of a percent, life would not exist. 
I would much prefer to answer/discuss these around a campfire somewhere with all you guys...


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## ambush80 (Dec 24, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> Most of these can be answered with the fall of man.
> Others, free will of man.
> Science will tell you if our natural world were different by only a fraction of a percent, life would not exist.
> I would much prefer to answer/discuss these around a campfire somewhere with all you guys...



It's nice campfire weather.


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## bullethead (Dec 25, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> Most of these can be answered with the fall of man.
> Others, free will of man.
> Science will tell you if our natural world were different by only a fraction of a percent, life would not exist.
> I would much prefer to answer/discuss these around a campfire somewhere with all you guys...



It has been shown in your own Bible that time and time again God intervenes to change outcomes or override free-will.
Because the Bible has shown he does that at his leisure or liking Free Will cannot be used as an excuse. 

If we have free will when he wants us to then we don't really have it.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 25, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> It's nice campfire weather.



Only if we can borrow a teepee to put the fire in. To make the discussion really interesting, we'll invite some of this Church's members.

http://peyoteway.org/


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## ambush80 (Dec 25, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Only if we can borrow a teepee to put the fire in. To make the discussion really interesting, we'll invite some of this Church's members.
> 
> http://peyoteway.org/



They could help us establish a local chapter.  It might be a religious experience.


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## 660griz (Dec 26, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Only if we can borrow a teepee to put the fire in. To make the discussion really interesting, we'll invite some of this Church's members.
> 
> http://peyoteway.org/



I think they are getting 'inspired' by the holy spirit in much the same way the ancients did.


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## 1222DANO (Dec 27, 2013)

What we can get from Christianity is and i've been in this situation alot of times been in my share of accidents but i had one real bad one.. 
Now when your laying there staring at a black hole and the doctors have done all they can do and the rest is up to you and GOD its your last day doesn't matter if its Christmas,Easter,Summer,Spring the world isn't gonna stop for you they live you die.. We Christians can rejoice and be comforted in the fact we're going to a better place.. Others will be lost in the questions they have asked for their whole lives looking for proof.. they want the answer so bad but theirs no concrete evidence so they deny him.. why i don't know maybe its his plan for them... i found comfort in my beliefs knowing heaven awaits and more family is coming..my wife, my son, his kids,.. usually now they give so much morphine to most so they don't get to tormented...

your soul lives on through your family friends the love you gave and your good deeds and for what your remembered for.. What was his beliefs and did he stand on them those are the ones i remember and think about.. or was he just a confused person and no one evens wants to remember anymore?


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## Terminal Idiot (Dec 27, 2013)

Still no biblical answer about a soul's origin?


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## ted_BSR (Dec 27, 2013)

Terminal Idiot said:


> Still no biblical answer about a soul's origin?



Most of the As or the As don't want any biblical answer on here, just the cold hard facts.


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## Terminal Idiot (Dec 27, 2013)

So you are unable to answer? Or just choose not to. If the answer is that the bible doesn't address it, then just say that. If it mentions it somewhere, please let me know. This can't be that difficult for people who study the book and know its ins and outs.

Also still trying to figure out if the bible mentions why god felt the need to create souls/humans in the first place.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 27, 2013)

Terminal Idiot said:


> Thank you for the response, but it doesn't really answer the question.
> 
> What I am getting at is: why create a "man"? Why give that man a soul? Why not just create the soul. And what is the purpose in the long run? Why is god creating these souls that may/may not end up where he is? Is this god bored and needs entertainment. Does he need friends? Someone to play chess with? Why would a god create a less than perfect being just to watch it struggle?
> 
> ...



You will never be accused of plagiarising any of the Stoic philosophers.   (Which is an attempt at levity.) 

With respect, I believe the Bible will answer your questions regarding the origin, nature and destiny of the soul.  I think we can agree science is not equipped to answer such, at least today.

I also believe the Bible provides insight into the nature of the Creator, which will help you put your question in better perspective.  Man, in our rebellion to God's way, has long asked "Why not my way?"

It is natural, humanistic, to project upon God such thoughts and merely ask why He didn't invite us into a kind of beach concert existence with Him.  Why all this hassle?

Jesus Christ calls us to pick up our crosses, daily.  I wouldn't honor my belief if I did not say this, and I am saying it not to preach necessarily but to answer your question about what the Bible says about soul origin, etc. 

The Bible promises that there will be trouble in this world, which is at war.  The prize of good and evil combatants is this soul of which you write. 

Blessings.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 27, 2013)

Terminal Idiot said:


> So you are unable to answer? Or just choose not to. If the answer is that the bible doesn't address it, then just say that. If it mentions it somewhere, please let me know. This can't be that difficult for people who study the book and know its ins and outs.
> 
> Also still trying to figure out if the bible mentions why god felt the need to create souls/humans in the first place.




Terminal I -- yes, of course the Bible identifies the origin of man's soul.  It is God.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 says dust returns to the ground that gave it, and the soul returns to God who gave it.

The soul is the spiritual being of man, and is referred to as man's spirit, with a lower case "s." 

God is the father of all men's spirits.  I can get that citation if you'd like as well.

Peace.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 27, 2013)

ted_BSR said:


> Most of the As or the As don't want any biblical answer on here, just the cold hard facts.


At least we agree they are different from each other


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## BT Charlie (Dec 27, 2013)

ted_BSR said:


> Most of the As or the As don't want any biblical answer on here, just the cold hard facts.



I appreciate that.  It is difficult to turn to science for the answer about the origin, nature and destiny of the soul.  Scientific method isn't up to the task. 

The OP appropriately turned to the Bible, IMHO.  I've tried to offer concise answers in a way that honors my belief while acknowledgibg the intellectual offense Biblical references may cause for some.

Nice Hali, Ted.  Best tasting fish in the sea.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 27, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> At least we agree they are different from each other



Well, the OP asked for Bible references. So Scripture = answer = fact here, right?


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## Terminal Idiot (Dec 27, 2013)

Hopefully you understand that I understand that in your opinion god created everything. I get that.

I am asking more than just whodunit. When is it created? At time of conception or are they always around and at some point given a human form? Furthermore, Why did he create them at all?

I am not asking you to tell me why humans believe or rationalize this. I am asking what the bible says. I understand that it can be seen that I have projected my thoughts upon a god, but it was in the context of asking if the bible explained it. So, does the bible explain it?


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## BT Charlie (Dec 27, 2013)

Terminal Idiot said:


> Hopefully you understand that I understand that in your opinion god created everything. I get that.
> 
> I am asking more than just whodunit. When is it created? At time of conception or are they always around and at some point given a human form? Furthermore, Why did he create them at all?
> 
> ...



TI,

My apologies if I've misconstrued your questions.  While there are numerous Bible verses identifying God as the creator of man, and as the origin of man's eternal soul, I don't recall verses that go into the objective mechanics of creation precisely as you inquire.   His purpose in all seems pretty clearly to restore the perfect relationship between each and their Maker, as existed prior to the rebellion.


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## 1222DANO (Dec 28, 2013)

Where does the soul of man come from, your asking when its born..
Has your Daddy and Mamma gave you the birds and the bees talk yet.. its born out of Gods love and if done correctly by Gods laws then it makes the life of the soul a lot easier but still he has the same path..As a soul born out of immoral thoughts then its a long hard road for all. Its Gods seed your planted here on earth to do his Good works.. but he gives free will also... so you can choose for yourself to do good or bad.. he doesn't force himself upon you..


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## drippin' rock (Dec 28, 2013)

Do babies created in a lab have souls?  Will cloned people have souls?  Or do only babies conceived in the traditional manner have souls?


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## 1222DANO (Dec 28, 2013)

All living things have a soul, i'd say.. why because it doesn't matter how it was created it still has the breath of life.. therefor a soul is still there.. the babies in a lab would lack the love of Jesus and wouldn't have much for feelings towards other people because they would feel like a robot. they we're made as mans creation for his purpose and for what reason they had took time in a lab to create this soul.... where a soul made out of the conventional manner would have a purpose of spreading the seed of GOD and doing GODs good works..
why would you lab create a soul and spend so much time and energy in doings so? it can be done in a matter of minutes in my case..llloll


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## 1222DANO (Dec 28, 2013)

Terminal Idiot said:


> I wonder... Does the bible address:
> 
> Where does the soul, or spirit - the thing that supposedly goes to heaven - come from? Is it eternal - always been around? Or does god create a new one at each time of conception? It seems odd to me that a god would create a soul/spirit, put it in a human form, make it praise and worship, judge it, give it a thumbs up or down, then send it off to some other place for an eternity. I can't wrap my head around the idea of creating something, sending it off, making it prove it's worth, just so it will eventually come back to wherever I am. Why the middle man?
> 
> Thanks for your input.



the seed is in all of us and is internal inside each man., and has been around since man was created by GOD.. He doesn't make you praise and worship, only judges you in the end for good or bad depending what you done with the free will of your soul. if you don't wanna praise and worship then don't, if you feel like your proving your worth then why? you don't have to prove nothing to no one.. try this go and do what your mind wants and thinks is right.. then see if it brings you back to looking for an explanation. why are you looking for an explanation? you done what your mind said was right, so why do you need to explain.. if you live by Gods laws you'll not feel the need to explain, why cause he been around alot longer than us.. no different than listening to your parents.. what middle man are you talking about? Jesus?


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## ted_BSR (Dec 29, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> At least we agree they are different from each other



No, I was being quite sarcastic.


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## ted_BSR (Dec 29, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> I appreciate that.  It is difficult to turn to science for the answer about the origin, nature and destiny of the soul.  Scientific method isn't up to the task.
> 
> The OP appropriately turned to the Bible, IMHO.  I've tried to offer concise answers in a way that honors my belief while acknowledgibg the intellectual offense Biblical references may cause for some.
> 
> Nice Hali, Ted.  Best tasting fish in the sea.



Definitely agree...

about the halibut too. I have cooked it 45 different ways, and I have found the best is to grill it with some sesame oil, and dip it in drawn butter at the table. "Poor man's lobster"


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## ted_BSR (Dec 29, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> Do babies created in a lab have souls?  Will cloned people have souls?  Or do only babies conceived in the traditional manner have souls?



Those are some really good questions.
By in a lab, do you mean artificial insemination?
If we start cloning people, I quit.


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## drippin' rock (Dec 30, 2013)

Yeah, I was thinking test tube when I said "lab".  I really think cloning is not an "if", it's a "when".  So when humans are cloned, and they function as any "normal" human would, the debate will be rivoting.


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## 660griz (Dec 30, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> Yeah, I was thinking test tube when I said "lab".  I really think cloning is not an "if", it's a "when".  So when humans are cloned, and they function as any "normal" human would, the debate will be rivoting.



I would love a "spare parts" bin.


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## stringmusic (Dec 30, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> Yeah, I was thinking test tube when I said "lab".  I really think cloning is not an "if", it's a "when".  So when humans are cloned, and they function as any "normal" human would, the debate will be rivoting.



Cloned humans wouldn't have a soul any more than a robot would.


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## bullethead (Dec 30, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Cloned humans wouldn't have a soul any more than a robot would.



Except if cloning was he next step in God's plan.


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## JB0704 (Dec 30, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Cloned humans wouldn't have a soul any more than a robot would.



That's a fun debate to have with Christians as well.  I was on a hiking trip with a few preachers once, several years ago, when the topic came up......ultimately, any conclusion is theoretical.  But, my basic premise is that life can only be given by God, and from there, he decides what to do with a soul.


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## bullethead (Dec 30, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> That's a fun debate to have with Christians as well.  I was on a hiking trip with a few preachers once, several years ago, when the topic came up......ultimately, any conclusion is theoretical.  But, my basic premise is that life can only be given by God, and from there, he decides what to do with a soul.



Is creation that spawns from God's creations different?


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## JB0704 (Dec 30, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Is creation that spawns from God's creations different?



I don't think so.  You and I are both examples of such.


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## SemperFiDawg (Dec 30, 2013)

Terminal Idiot said:


> I wonder... Does the bible address:
> 
> Where does the soul, or spirit - the thing that supposedly goes to heaven - come from? Is it eternal - always been around? Or does god create a new one at each time of conception? It seems odd to me that a god would create a soul/spirit, put it in a human form, make it praise and worship, judge it, give it a thumbs up or down, then send it off to some other place for an eternity. I can't wrap my head around the idea of creating something, sending it off, making it prove it's worth, just so it will eventually come back to wherever I am. Why the middle man?
> 
> Thanks for your input.



Man is a soul who is born into a body and hopefully a spirit also.  God created man in his image as both an expression of love and in order to have another to express his love to, much the same as a husband and wife would have a child.
The purpose of the child is not to create someone to express their punishment upon, but their love.  The child has free will and can, if he chooses, grow up to reject his parents, but that is not their wish.  Same with you and God. You have the ability to reject him.  If you do then the separation will be of your choice and not his, and it is as you note, an eternal separation that one chooses.


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## SemperFiDawg (Dec 30, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> Yeah, I was thinking test tube when I said "lab".  I really think cloning is not an "if", it's a "when".  So when humans are cloned, and they function as any "normal" human would, the debate will be rivoting.



It will be, but in my, and only my opinion, I don't think we ever get there.  I just don't see it happening.


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## bullethead (Dec 30, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> It will be, but in my, and only my opinion, I don't think we ever get there.  I just don't see it happening.



http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/201...ntists-clone-human-embryos-to-make-stem-cells

http://www.wbur.org/npr/184223277/how-scientists-cloned-human-embryos

I wonder how our Morals and Ethics will change in another 25years?


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## StriperrHunterr (Dec 30, 2013)

Yeah, I don't ever see us cloning humans, although I'd like to see us get close. The ethical and moral dilemmas are too great to ever fully create a cloned human, even without the religious implications, I believe. 

Still, I'd like to see us start cloning organs, and using non-embryonic stem cells, to treat disease.


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## drippin' rock (Dec 30, 2013)

Frankly, I'd be surprised if it hasn't happened yet.  Morals only become a roadblock if the event is made public.

The moral dilemma will be overcome initially by the quality of life argument.  When we have the ability to put a cloned organ into a dying patient to save that life, the argument will grow teeth.  It will only be a matter of time from that point when we have a living breathing cloned human being.  If the ability to clone exists, nothing will stop us from cloning.  That is the way of the world.


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## StriperrHunterr (Dec 30, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> Frankly, I'd be surprised if it hasn't happened yet.  Morals only become a roadblock if the event is made public.
> 
> The moral dilemma will be overcome initially by the quality of life argument.  When we have the ability to put a cloned organ into a dying patient to save that life, the argument will grow teeth.  It will only be a matter of time from that point when we have a living breathing cloned human being.  If the ability to clone exists, nothing will stop us from cloning.  That is the way of the world.



I agree that at some point we will be cloning organs. I don't think we'll ever clone a full human, at least publicly like you said, simply because then it becomes a matter of ownership/rights/religion and so on...

It's too sticky, IMO, to ever think about cloning a full human to full consciousness.


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## ambush80 (Dec 30, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Man is a soul who is born into a body and hopefully a spirit also.  God created man in his image as both an expression of love and in order to have another to express his love to, much the same as a husband and wife would have a child.
> The purpose of the child is not to create someone to express their punishment upon, but their love.  The child has free will and can, if he chooses, grow up to reject his parents, but that is not their wish.  Same with you and God. You have the ability to reject him.  If you do then the separation will be of your choice and not his, and it is as you note, an eternal separation that one chooses.



If you saw your kid about to exercise his free will by sticking his hand into a running lawnmower would you stand idly by and issue a cryptic verbal warning?


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## SemperFiDawg (Dec 30, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> If you saw your kid about to exercise his free will by sticking his hand into a running lawnmower would you stand idly by and issue a cryptic verbal warning?



Red herring anyone?  I'll pass but thanks for offering.


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## 660griz (Dec 30, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Red herring anyone?  I'll pass but thanks for offering.



Because the lawn mower injury will eventually stop hurting?


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## drippin' rock (Dec 30, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Red herring anyone?  I'll pass but thanks for offering.



Yet another in a long line of non-answers.


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## SemperFiDawg (Dec 30, 2013)

Terminal Idiot said:


> I wonder... Does the bible address:
> 
> Where does the soul, or spirit - the thing that supposedly goes to heaven - come from? Is it eternal - always been around?
> 
> Thanks for your input.



Good question.  It's a toughie and I think Biblically it could be argued either way.  

It's clear that God created man, so we can't have an eternal past.

On the other hand scripture states in

Jeremiah 1:5

5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew[a] you,
    before you were born I set you apart;
    I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

 which could lead one to believe that our soul did indeed exist prior to conception.

Others could argue it's simply is an example of foreknowledge that an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent God certainly possesses.

Personally I lean toward the latter interpretation and think the soul is imparted upon conception.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 30, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Good question.  It's a toughie and I think Biblically it could be argued either way.
> 
> It's clear that God created man, so we can't have an eternally past.
> 
> ...



Somehow the Latter Day Saints view our souls as being eternal but not our bodies:

ALL HUMAN BEINGS
—male and female—are created in the
image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of
heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.
IN THE PREMORTAL REALM,
spirit sons and daughters knew
and worshipped God as their Eternal Father and accepted
His plan by which His children could obtain a physical
body and gain earthly experience to progress toward per-
fection and ultimately realize their divine destiny as heirs of
eternal life. The divine plan of happiness enables family
relationships to be perpetuated beyond the grave. Sacred
ordinances and covenants available in holy temples make it
possible for individuals to return to the presence of God and for families to be united eternally.

http://www.lds.org/Static Files/PDF/Manuals/TheFamily_AProclamationToTheWorld_35538_eng.pdf


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## ambush80 (Dec 31, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Man is a soul who is born into a body and hopefully a spirit also.  God created man in his image as both an expression of love and in order to have another to express his love to, much the same as a husband and wife would have a child.
> The purpose of the child is not to create someone to express their punishment upon, but their love.  The child has free will and can, if he chooses, grow up to reject his parents, but that is not their wish.  Same with you and God. You have the ability to reject him.  If you do then the separation will be of your choice and not his, and it is as you note, an eternal separation that one chooses.




Ok Mr. red herring.  Lets ignore my poignant illustration and discuss specifically what you offer here. (Note that you yourself give an _illustration_ about how God provides salvation or more precisely, allows darnation ).

Firstly, the purpose of procreation is to continue your genes.  God made people because he was lonely and wanted someone to worship him.  (Insert your scriptural rebuttal here)


The result of this (benign euphemism) "separation" is He11.  Seems like y'all have different ideas of what He11 is like. If it's like what I was taught in Sunday School then it's considerably worse than getting a hand mangled in a lawnmower.  

Sir, if I knew that YOU, just you, were headed to such a place, to save you from that I would allow myself to be beaten, spat on, drug through the streets and crucified, especially if I knew that in three days I would come back to life fresh as a daisy and ascend into Heaven.  Heck, I'd let them do it twice.


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## 1222DANO (Dec 31, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Ok Mr. red herring.  Lets ignore my poignant illustration and discuss specifically what you offer here. (Note that you yourself offer an _illustration_ about how God offers salvation).
> 
> Firstly, the purpose of procreation is to continue your genes.  God made people because he was lonely and wanted someone to worship him.  (Insert your scriptural rebuttal here)
> 
> ...




I don't believe he created us so he'd have someone to worship him, 
he gave Free will, he wanted to see if we'd be thankful to him for all that he had done. Even if we're not thankful he still loves us and is willing to give his Son for us. All he asks is us to be Thankful for what he's created.. Its hard for me to see how someone could live on such a beautiful place as earth surrounded by so many great things that are here for us to enjoy. but yet they aren't thankful to God who gave the knowledge to so many people before us. look at other planets, they're just deserts. wanna live their, well by going to the moon that's what we're saying. we wanna live on another planet of mans creation.. i feel sorry for those souls that will try and do so. i mean why would you want to live on such a wasteland over earth? i'd just rather go home and see my Creator. My Grandmothers Aunt was an Indian and she was raised up around her and taught about earth and its healing powers. i feel lucky my grandmother showed me these things..its because our eyes are being closed to the ways of nature.


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