# Zephaniah's prophecy.



## gordon 2

I have developed a great affection for the words of the prophet Zephaniah of recent.

I would like to point out to you that the grand sweep of his prophecy does not seem to accord with what most Christians claim will be the lot of man, but especially Israel in prophecy.

My reading seems to score that someday God will remove all of man from the earth, all of man, which would include physical Israel and restored to it a new man or repopulated by a remnant of the faithful or spiritual Israel, or the faithful.

If my reading is correct it does not square with what I have commonly heard from usual Christian outlook regards how the end times will unfold. Also, present day belief that political Israel is immune to another exile and is a fixed feature of prophecy seem to be in disagreement in Zephaniah especially that the prophecy here indicates that all of man will be removed from the earth.

If you have the time, Zephaniah is short with only three chapters, if you can read it  and tell me what you understand. For me it is unlike any other prophecy I have ever read and seems sweep over all others...   


Ideas? Thoughts? Fellowship?


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## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> I have developed a great affection for the words of the prophet Zephaniah of recent.
> 
> I would like to point out to you that the grand sweep of his prophecy does not seem to accord with what most Christians claim will be the lot of man, but especially Israel in prophecy.
> 
> My reading seems to score that someday God will remove all of man from the earth, all of man, which would include physical Israel and restored to it a new man or repopulated by a remnant of the faithful or spiritual Israel, or the faithful.
> 
> If my reading is correct it does not square with what I have commonly heard from usual Christian outlook regards how the end times will unfold. Also, present day belief that political Israel is immune to another exile and is a fixed feature of prophecy seem to be in disagreement in Zephaniah especially that the prophecy here indicates that all of man will be removed from the earth.
> 
> If you have the time, Zephaniah is short with only three chapters, if you can read it  and tell me what you understand. For me it is unlike any other prophecy I have ever read and seems sweep over all others...
> 
> 
> Ideas? Thoughts? Fellowship?



You don't say.  ?


Israel/ New Jerusalem is the spiritual kingdom,  it no longer has boundaries.  To stand on Holy ground,  one does not have to go to the Holy Land so to speak.  There is a new land.. A new Kingdom.. And we have been made new creatures by the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. 

 1948 was a huge mistake for the world .


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## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> You don't say.  ��
> 
> 
> Israel/ New Jerusalem is the spiritual kingdom,  it no longer has boundaries.  To stand on Holy ground,  one does not have to go to the Holy Land so to speak.  There is a new land.. A new Kingdom.. And we have been made new creatures by the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
> 
> 1948 was a huge mistake for the world .



OH! Oh! Your not a zionist I suspect, which makes you an .... ( outcast? from the run of the mill?)

 But what do you say about Zeph's end time prophecy. When he says all of man shall be done away with from the face of the earth... is this understood literally by you?  Does all mean all in this case?

And the remnant that will replace this rubbed out man,. if you agree that it means all will perish, where will the remnant come from? Will they be a new creation? A new man altogether?

Oh! and if you think Zeph really means the riddance of all man from the earth, would this include physical Isreal and all the people in Palestine, Christians, spiritual Jews, Athiests, Muslims, Bahis, Agnostics, the godly and the worldly etc...  also?


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## Artfuldodger

Maybe that would answer Romans 11;

From Romans 11;
11 I ask then, did they stumble so as to lose their share? Absolutely not! However, because of their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous. 12But if their trespass means riches for the world, and their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

23 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,
 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove godlessness from Jacob. 27And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

30Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you.32For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all. 33O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways!


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## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> You don't say.  ��
> 
> 
> Israel/ New Jerusalem is the spiritual kingdom,  it no longer has boundaries.  To stand on Holy ground,  one does not have to go to the Holy Land so to speak.  There is a new land.. A new Kingdom.. And we have been made new creatures by the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
> 
> 1948 was a huge mistake for the world .



OH! Oh! Your not a zionist I suspect, which makes you an .... ( outcast? from the run of the mill?)

 But what do you say about Zeph's end time prophecy. When he says all of man shall be done away with from the face of the earth... is this understood literally by you? 

And the remnant that will replace this rubbed out man, where will they come from? Will they be a new creation? A new man altogether?

Oh! and if you think Zeph really means the riddance of all man from the earth, would this include physical Isreal also? I say this because many Christians assume that Isreal ( the state), sins or no sins, is a permanent fixture of the middle east.???? That Israel (the state) will never loose a war. That a war world over Israel is the initiation of the end...etc... Do you think that for sin Israel ( the state) today might be exiled again from the land of Canaan ? If not why not? If yes why?


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## Artfuldodger

For some unexplained reason to me, God chose Israel as the path for his Son to be delivered. He chose Israel as his path for the Messiah to preach to them first. To them first and then to the Gentile. This was revealed by Paul. It was his purpose from God. The reason he was elected.

Now if God thought it important enough to be into the Genealogy of Israel, why is it not that important anymore? What exactly is Romans 11 saying?


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> You don't say.  &#55357;&#56833;
> 
> 
> Israel/ New Jerusalem is the spiritual kingdom,  it no longer has boundaries.  To stand on Holy ground,  one does not have to go to the Holy Land so to speak.  There is a new land.. A new Kingdom.. And we have been made new creatures by the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
> 
> 1948 was a huge mistake for the world .



Romans 11 tells us it was a physical Israel that was blinded until the full number of Gentiles comes in. Later after their grafting, the blindness is lifted. All of Israel will be saved. It's the same Israel that was blinded earlier. 

Romans 11 says nothing of a spiritual Israel. I'm not saying it is the 1948 Israel but it appears to be a physical Israel. You can't read Romans 11 and switch back and forth between a physical Israel and spiritual Israel.
God didn't blind physical Israel to make the Church jealous.

Romans 11 is all about hardening and electing. Can God harden and elect the same group? I think Romans 11:24 tells us he can;

24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!


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## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> OH! Oh! Your not a zionist I suspect, which makes you an .... ( outcast? from the run of the mill?)
> 
> But what do you say about Zeph's end time prophecy. When he says all of man shall be done away with from the face of the earth... is this understood literally by you?
> 
> And the remnant that will replace this rubbed out man, where will they come from? Will they be a new creation? A new man altogether?
> 
> Oh! and if you think Zeph really means the riddance of all man from the earth, would this include physical Isreal also? I say this because many Christians assume that Isreal ( the state), sins or no sins, is a permanent fixture of the middle east.???? That Israel (the state) will never loose a war. That a war world over Israel is the initiation of the end...etc... Do you think that for sin Israel ( the state) today might be exiled again from the land of Canaan ? If not why not? If yes why?




You should know by now I am no Zionist. I never have been., although I have sat under some Zionist preaching. 

" All men done away with from the face of the earth"

 Im not seeing that exactly as I scan over Zephaniah,  maybe 3:8? 

 In 3:8 I believe  the nation's are not all nations of the globe,  but the tribes of Israel,  and the men are the men of Israel. 

 And the Earth is not really the earth but the Country Israel.  That word translated as Earth can and sometimes is translated as a local land or country. 

 The remnant was those that believed in Christ... By faith they were God's people. Peter,  Paul,  those men of Galilee, etc. 

Can you not see 70ad in this?  It fits perfectly to me.


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## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe that would answer Romans 11;
> 
> From Romans 11;
> 11 I ask then, did they stumble so as to lose their share? Absolutely not! However, because of their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous. 12But if their trespass means riches for the world, and their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
> 
> 23 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,
> 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove godlessness from Jacob. 27And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
> 
> 30Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you.32For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all. 33O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways!



*"For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He many have mercy on  all."*

Now that is a mindful, Art.  One way I read this is as such: For God has given all freewill to obey and to disobey so that wrath should run its course if they disobey and God's mercy be evident to all who seek Him.


???? 


So Art are you suggesting that Isreal today, the state of Isreal is still " consigned to disobedience" and it's consequences  or the opposite that Isreal can do no wrong, they cannot suffer wrath of loosing their state, their lands, their wealth, their people-- they cannot be defeated in war or be exiled again?


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## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> You should know by now I am no Zionist. I never have been., although I have sat under some Zionist preaching.
> 
> " All men done away with from the face of the earth"
> 
> Im not seeing that exactly as I scan over Zephaniah,  maybe 3:8?
> 
> In 3:8 I believe  the nation's are not all nations of the globe,  but the tribes of Israel,  and the men are the men of Israel.
> 
> And the Earth is not really the earth but the Country Israel.  That word translated as Earth can and sometimes is translated as a local land or country.
> 
> The remnant was those that believed in Christ... By faith they were God's people. Peter,  Paul,  those men of Galilee, etc.
> 
> Can you not see 70ad in this?  It fits perfectly to me.




I am not surprised that 70 ad is seen by you " in this". LOL 

However what you are seeing is that for Zephaniah the earth is not the earth of creation, but the land mass of Isreal, and that Zeph's prophecy applies only to Isreal and the people of faith so that his prophecy is only about Isreal going into exile for sin.????

I will read it again and try to quote verses that I think mean the earth as meaning all the planet. I should have done this earlier. It will take a little bit... but I'll get back to you on this... as to why I think the earth means all the earth...and that man will be removed from the earth completely.... 

I'm not saying I'm right, which is why I'm asking... regards this prophet. If what I understand is true, then most of Christianity's end time view is faulty....  And I know that the odds are that my view is faulty... etc...


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## Artfuldodger

gordon 2 said:


> *"For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He many have mercy on  all."*
> 
> Now that is a mindful, Art.  One way I read this is as such: For God has given all freewill to obey and to disobey so that wrath should run its course if they disobey and God's mercy be evident to all who seek Him.
> 
> ????
> 
> So Art are you suggesting that Isreal today, the state of Isreal is still " consigned to disobedience" and it's consequences  or the opposite that Isreal can do no wrong, they cannot suffer wrath of loosing their state, their lands, their wealth, their people-- they cannot be defeated in war or be exiled again?



I'm not even sure who Israel is. I would assume it's the same one in Romans 11. Where or who that is I don't really know. I don't think it's the one formed in 1948.

So I guess I can't be a Zionist?

Let me read Zephaniah later.


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## Artfuldodger

gordon 2 said:


> *"For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He many have mercy on  all."*
> 
> Now that is a mindful, Art.  One way I read this is as such: For God has given all freewill to obey and to disobey so that wrath should run its course if they disobey and God's mercy be evident to all who seek Him.
> 
> ????
> 
> So Art are you suggesting that Isreal today, the state of Isreal is still " consigned to disobedience" and it's consequences  or the opposite that Isreal can do no wrong, they cannot suffer wrath of loosing their state, their lands, their wealth, their people-- they cannot be defeated in war or be exiled again?



Concerning God and disobedience mentioned in Romans 11 Paul continues;

"For God's gifts and his call can never be withdrawn."

33 O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways! 34“Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor?” 35“Who has given so much to God, that God should repay him?” 36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen.

I think this shows that we can't figure out God's election process. That God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. Earlier in Romans God tells us he elects using grace.
He gives us this storyline in Romans 11 about Israel and then tells us "all Israel will be saved." 

Then he tells us we can't figure this out using our minds. We can't fathom his election process but it doesn't include works. If he blinded a physical Israel then he can surely open the eyes of this same Israel that he blinded whomever that Israel may be. Regardless of whomever it may be it's the same Israel.

Paul would not present this whole story to us about Israel and include the verses that it was a mystery we couldn't understand if it was not about the mystery of his blinding, choosing a remnant, Gentiles grafted in, then Israel being grafted back in, if that was not in fact the story.

In other words he wouldn't have included the verses of us not understanding God's election process.

Romans 11:29
for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

Look at the context where that verse is used.


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## hobbs27

OK.... I'm taking back something I said earlier.  This is not entirely about 70ad, and may have nothing at all to do with it. 

After reading more and putting it in the proper time frame I'm seeing it being way before since the time was near and hastens quickly.  (1: 7, 14)
 This puts the event prophecied of the judgment on Israel by the Babylonians in BC 586.


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## hobbs27

The third chapter is where things change up a bit.. maybe. 

 Seems to be concerning the "new heaven and earth". Speaks of the Gentiles offering (v. 10), guilt gone (11), restoration (15).


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## hobbs27

Here's some commentary by Kurt Simmons :
One of the first issues that presents itself in interpreting this passage is the "day of the Lord."  For those unversed in the Old Testament prophets, the assumption typically is that this phrase is unique to New Testament eschatology, and describes a coming time when the earth will be destroyed. However, this is wrong.  There are numerous occurrences of this phrase in the Old Testament, where they describe times of divine judgment and wrath.  Concerning God's judgment by the Babylonians, Zephaniah thus says: 
"I will utterly consume all things from off the land, saith the Lord. I will consume man and beast; I will consume the fowls of the heaven, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumbling-blocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the land, saith the Lord.  I will also stretch out mine had upon Judah, and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place, and the name of the Chemarims, with the priests; and them that worship the host of heaven upon the housetops; and them that worship and that swear by the Lord and that swear by Malcham; and them that are turned back from the Lord; and those that have not sought the Lord, nor inquired for him.  Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord God: for the day of the Lord is at hand: for the Lord hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests….The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, a day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers."  Zeph. 1:2-7, 14-16
We have quoted the prophet at length so the historical context may be established and it may be seen that this prophecy describes a time of judgment upon the ancient Jews.  Baal worship, Malcham, worship of celestial bodies, the levitical priesthood, fenced cities, defensive towers, the watchman's trumpet, all assign this "day of the Lord" to the far distant past. In following verses, the prophet widens the scope of divine wrath, adding the Philistines, Moab, Ethiopia, and Assyria (Zeph. 2:4-12).  Like Baal worship, fenced cities, and the watchman's trumpet, most of these nations no longer exist, and confirm our conclusion that this prophecy belongs to the ancient past.  As an aside, we note that Zephaniah represents this "day of the Lord" as universal:


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## hobbs27

More... 

Day of the Lord - World Wide Wrath?
A question worth pausing to consider is whether "day of the Lord" can describe a time of judgment upon a particular people or nation?  The examples we have looked at were world wide. The parallel examples in Isaiah and Zephaniah, which described the Assyrio-Babylonian invasions were both world-wide in scope.  Isa. 13:11, which describes the Mede-Persian conquests, states that God would punish the "world," showing that this time of wrath would expand beyond Babylon itself and take in the rest of the world.  Many commentators and critics note that the Hebrew ha-arets, rendered "the land" in verses 5 and 9 may be better rendered "the earth."  (See the Pulpit Commentary in loc.)  Anyone who has read Herodotus and his description of the Mede-Persian conquests knows that their empire subdued the whole Mediterranean world, including Elam in the east to Egypt in the West and Cyprus in the north. Thus, the prophet Daniel describes the Mede-Persia Empire as a bear, which is told to "devour much flesh" (Dan. 7:5). Based upon the examples viewed thus far, the phrase does not describe isolated incidents of wrath upon a single nation, but seems to be describe wrath world-wide in its sweep.


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## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> More...
> 
> Day of the Lord - World Wide Wrath?
> A question worth pausing to consider is whether "day of the Lord" can describe a time of judgment upon a particular people or nation?  The examples we have looked at were world wide. The parallel examples in Isaiah and Zephaniah, which described the Assyrio-Babylonian invasions were both world-wide in scope.  Isa. 13:11, which describes the Mede-Persian conquests, states that God would punish the "world," showing that this time of wrath would expand beyond Babylon itself and take in the rest of the world.  Many commentators and critics note that the Hebrew ha-arets, rendered "the land" in verses 5 and 9 may be better rendered "the earth."  (See the Pulpit Commentary in loc.)  Anyone who has read Herodotus and his description of the Mede-Persian conquests knows that their empire subdued the whole Mediterranean world, including Elam in the east to Egypt in the West and Cyprus in the north. Thus, the prophet Daniel describes the Mede-Persia Empire as a bear, which is told to "devour much flesh" (Dan. 7:5). Based upon the examples viewed thus far, the phrase does not describe isolated incidents of wrath upon a single nation, but seems to be describe wrath world-wide in its sweep.




Interesting.... thanks. I'm gona read Zeph again this evening ( and letting it say to me what it will) and try to square it with Revelations...to some degree.... prehaps...


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## hobbs27

Jerusalem as the sacrifice.... Interesting

Zephaniah 1:7
 That is similar to Revelation.


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## gordon 2

These are some verses which indicate an end of all mankind in Zepheniah.

When I destroy all mankind
    on the face of the earth,”
declares the Lord,
4 “I will stretch out my hand against Judah
    and against all who live in Jerusalem.

-----------------
I will bring such distress on all people
    that they will grope about like those who are blind,
    because they have sinned against the Lord.

---------------------

In the fire of his jealousy
    the whole earth will be consumed,
for he will make a sudden end
    of all who live on the earth.

----------------------

Woe to you who live by the sea,
    you Kerethite people;
the word of the Lord is against you,
    Canaan, land of the Philistines.
He says, “I will destroy you,
    and none will be left.”
------------

I have decided to assemble the nations,
    to gather the kingdoms
and to pour out my wrath on them—
    all my fierce anger.
The whole world will be consumed
    by the fire of my jealous anger.
-------------


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## gordon 2

Chapter 3 is about a restoration which we have not yet seen at any time or place in my view. 


The remnant of Israel
    will trust in the name of the Lord.
13 They will do no wrong;
    they will tell no lies.
A deceitful tongue
    will not be found in their mouths.
They will eat and lie down
    and no one will make them afraid.”

----------

The Lord your God is with you,
    the Mighty Warrior who saves.
He will take great delight in you;
    in his love he will no longer rebuke you,
    but will rejoice over you with singing.”


--------------------------

I will rescue the lame;
    I will gather the exiles.
I will give them praise and honor
    in every land where they have suffered shame.
20 At that time I will gather you;
    at that time I will bring you home.

---------------


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## Artfuldodger

Man, I'm not sure. It starts out with the LORD destroying the world but changes to Judea and Jerusalem. The LORD will destroy those who used to worship him but now no longer do. Who would that be? (Jerusalem?)

The LORD has prepared his people for a great slaughter and has chosen their executioners.(Roman Army?)

The day of the LORD?   "On that day of judgment,"

The LORD's sacrifice? 

He will punish those wearing pagan clothes.

Reminds me of the same group in Romans 1;

Romans 1:19
since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
Romans 1:20
Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused.
Romans 1:23
and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
Romans 1:25
They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.


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## Artfuldodger

In verse 18 it goes back to to the whole earth; "He will make a terrifying end of all the people on earth."
Verse 2:1 is back to a nation; "you shameful nation,"
Then there is a destruction of the whole Middle East with each area mentioned in the destruction.
The coast is mentioned as new grazing land for the Jewish Remnant.  Ashkelon's fortune will be restored.  Ashkelon is a coastal city.

Moab is mentioned as one of Israel's enemies. God had said that he would bless people who bless Israel and curse people who were against it saying "Therefore, as surely as I live," declares the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, "surely Moab will become like Sodom, the Ammonites like Gomorrah."

More destruction is mentioned reaching out even farther from Jerusalem.  Nineveh  really catches it.  Nineveh  is often mentioned with some association with Babylon. 

Chapter 3 is back to Jerusalem. "Her priests profane the sanctuary and do violence to the law." All the other cities have been laid waste and the LORD's back in Jerusalem. It's corruption couldn't save her.

Then it continues with some type of calling to the ones left. The ones in Jerusalem and the ones dispersed; 
“For at that time I will change the speech of the peoples to a pure speech, that all of them may call upon the name of the LORD and serve him with one accord."

"From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia My worshipers, My dispersed ones, Will bring My offerings."

"The remnant of Israel will trust in the name of the LORD."

"The remnant of Israel will do no wrong."


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## Artfuldodger

Seems to be related to Romans 11;

26and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

Zephaniah 3:15
The LORD has taken away your punishment, he has turned back your enemy. The LORD, the King of Israel, is with you; never again will you fear any harm.

This must be after the destruction or a destruction.

Romans 11:12
But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring.

Zephaniah 3:17
The LORD your God is with you, the Mighty Warrior who saves. He will take great delight in you; in his love he will no longer rebuke you, but will rejoice over you with singing."


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## Artfuldodger

Zephaniah 3:19-20
At that time I will deal with all who oppressed you. I will rescue the lame; I will gather the exiles. I will give them praise and honor in every land where they have suffered shame.20 At that time I will gather you; at that time I will bring you home. I will give you honor and praise among all the peoples of the earth when I restore your fortunes before your very eyes," says the LORD.

Romans 11:30-31
30Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you.

Hard to believe all of that is about the Church or some type of Spiritual Jerusalem. I guess it could be about a past physical Jerusalem. It would take a lot of figurative interpretation to see it as such though.

Maybe God has already forgiven Israel. Maybe "all Israel will be saved" has already happened after the first destruction of Jerusalem. Maybe the Lord has already taken away their punishment. Maybe the Middle East has already been destroyed and Israel is once again pasturing sheep in all the land. Maybe the dispersed have already been called home. Maybe all the cities that shamed Israel have already been destroyed. Maybe the world has already been destroyed, figuratively of course.
Maybe Israel already has no fear. Maybe their blindness was lifted after the destruction.

All is well.


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## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> In verse 18 it goes back to to the whole earth; "He will make a terrifying end of all the people on earth."
> Verse 2:1 is back to a nation; "you shameful nation,"
> Then there is a destruction of the whole Middle East with each area mentioned in the destruction.
> The coast is mentioned as new grazing land for the Jewish Remnant.  Ashkelon's fortune will be restored.  Ashkelon is a coastal city.
> 
> Moab is mentioned as one of Israel's enemies. God had said that he would bless people who bless Israel and curse people who were against it saying "Therefore, as surely as I live," declares the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, "surely Moab will become like Sodom, the Ammonites like Gomorrah."
> 
> More destruction is mentioned reaching out even farther from Jerusalem.  Nineveh  really catches it.  Nineveh  is often mentioned with some association with Babylon.
> 
> Chapter 3 is back to Jerusalem. "Her priests profane the sanctuary and do violence to the law." All the other cities have been laid waste and the LORD's back in Jerusalem. It's corruption couldn't save her.
> 
> Then it continues with some type of calling to the ones left. The ones in Jerusalem and the ones dispersed;
> “For at that time I will change the speech of the peoples to a pure speech, that all of them may call upon the name of the LORD and serve him with one accord."
> 
> "From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia My worshipers, My dispersed ones, Will bring My offerings."
> 
> "The remnant of Israel will trust in the name of the LORD."
> 
> "The remnant of Israel will do no wrong."



So I get that the prophecy can be dual at least. It applies to the times the prophet lived in, but also to a future time when a remnant of Isreal will do no wrong.

In my limited view the only way a remnant of Isreal will do no wrong is if that remnant is spiritual Isreal--- the people of faith.

Now were will they come from these perfected in God's love people, this new man? From heaven? This remnant must have a origin and a holding place other than on earth since all  mankind on the face of the earth will be destroyed according to the prophet and yet a remnant will remain and return.

2 “I will destroy everything from the face of the earth.” says the Lord.
3 “I will destroy people and animals;
I will destroy the birds in the sky
and the fish in the sea.

2 ... I will utterly consume and sweep away all things from the face of the earth, says the Lord.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> OK.... I'm taking back something I said earlier.  This is not entirely about 70ad, and may have nothing at all to do with it.
> 
> After reading more and putting it in the proper time frame I'm seeing it being way before since the time was near and hastens quickly.  (1: 7, 14)
> This puts the event prophecied of the judgment on Israel by the Babylonians in BC 586.



I can kinda see the Babylon time period but it was  Nineveh whose city was destroyed and animals taking refuge there.

Zephaniah doesn't mention who the enemy is that is to destroy Jerusalem;
"The LORD has prepared his people for a great slaughter and has chosen their executioners."

The thing about this prophesy that makes it sound like something other than BC586 is after this destruction Jerusalem is given to the remnant and to the ones dispersed. He gathers the lame. He destroys all of Israel's enemies forever. They are forever safe.

They don't have to worry about enemies any more. They are also granted salvation. They can no longer speak bad about the LORD. The LORD has taken way their punishment and will no longer rebuke them. Never again to fear any harm.
Yet in 70AD there was another destruction.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gordon 2 said:


> So I get that the prophecy can be dual at least. It applies to the times the prophet lived in, but also to a future time when a remnant of Isreal will do no wrong.
> 
> In my limited view the only way a remnant of Isreal will do no wrong is if that remnant is spiritual Isreal--- the people of faith.
> 
> Now were will they come from these perfected in God's love people, this new man? From heaven? This remnant must have a origin and a holding place other than on earth since all  mankind on the face of the earth will be destroyed according to the prophet and yet a remnant will remain and return.



I'm not sure I accept the dual meanings presented by the destruction of Israel in BC586, 70AD, and a future one.

All of this is still very confusing to me. First in the Zephaniah's prophecy, there is no mention of Jesus. Does this make it a different destruction? 
If the whole world is destroyed, how can the dispersed be called home? How can birds roost in abandoned cities? How can Jews be presented in foreign towns by God?

Next if Jerusalem is destroyed, how can the remnant and the dispersed live there? So maybe it's not totally destroyed. Maybe the whole earth isn't totally destroyed. Maybe everything is and everything new is in Heaven but that isn't what Zephaniah or Romans 11 is telling us. 

Neither account sounds anything like a spiritual Jerusalem either. Sheep roaming on the coast line. The dispersed coming home. All of Israel being saved. God will take away their punishment. God will no longer rebuke them.
All of them may call upon the name of the LORD. God will restore their fortunes. They can now receive the mercy that was shown to us Gentiles.

It just sounds like a physical Israel to me. The one we were grafted into. The one that God chose a remnant from and blinded the rest until the full number of Gentiles came in. The Israel that can once again be grafted back into by the promise of the original covenant God had with it's ancestors. 

Maybe there are parallels. Maybe it is dual events. Concerning the mystery of Israel God said in Romans;

25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove godlessness from Jacob.27And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.” 28Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. 29For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.

31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. 32For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all. 33O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways!

I just can't see Paul presenting it this way if it wasn't physical Israel.


----------



## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> These are some verses which indicate an end of all mankind in Zepheniah.
> 
> When I destroy all mankind
> on the face of the earth,”
> declares the Lord,
> 4 “I will stretch out my hand against Judah
> and against all who live in Jerusalem.
> 
> -----------------
> I will bring such distress on all people
> that they will grope about like those who are blind,
> because they have sinned against the Lord.
> 
> ---------------------
> 
> In the fire of his jealousy
> the whole earth will be consumed,
> for he will make a sudden end
> of all who live on the earth.
> 
> ----------------------
> 
> Woe to you who live by the sea,
> you Kerethite people;
> the word of the Lord is against you,
> Canaan, land of the Philistines.
> He says, “I will destroy you,
> and none will be left.”
> ------------
> 
> I have decided to assemble the nations,
> to gather the kingdoms
> and to pour out my wrath on them—
> all my fierce anger.
> The whole world will be consumed
> by the fire of my jealous anger.
> -------------



How does that square with Luke 1:33?

and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end."


----------



## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm not sure I accept the dual meanings presented by the destruction of Israel in BC586, 70AD, and a future one.
> 
> All of this is still very confusing to me. First in the Zephaniah's prophecy, there is no mention of Jesus. Does this make it a different destruction?
> If the whole world is destroyed, how can the dispersed be called home? How can birds roost in abandoned cities? How can Jews be presented in foreign towns by God?
> 
> Next if Jerusalem is destroyed, how can the remnant and the dispersed live there? So maybe it's not totally destroyed. Maybe the whole earth isn't totally destroyed. Maybe everything is and everything new is in Heaven but that isn't what Zephaniah or Romans 11 is telling us.
> 
> Neither account sounds anything like a spiritual Jerusalem either. Sheep roaming on the coast line. The dispersed coming home. All of Israel being saved. God will take away their punishment. God will no longer rebuke them.
> All of them may call upon the name of the LORD. God will restore their fortunes. They can now receive the mercy that was shown to us Gentiles.
> 
> It just sounds like a physical Israel to me. The one we were grafted into. The one that God chose a remnant from and blinded the rest until the full number of Gentiles came in. The Israel that can once again be grafted back into by the promise of the original covenant God had with it's ancestors.
> 
> Maybe there are parallels. Maybe it is dual events. Concerning the mystery of Israel God said in Romans;
> 
> 25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove godlessness from Jacob.27And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.” 28Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. 29For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.
> 
> 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. 32For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all. 33O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways!
> 
> I just can't see Paul presenting it this way if it wasn't physical Israel.



I can. Zephaniah's prophecy goes from the days of wrath to the days when God's wrath will be no more and includes the Jews and the Gentiles. Paul is taking about two peoples Jews and Gentiles who are still in the grips of wrath. Therefore Zephaniah's is a sweep over of the mystery Paul is talking about.

Zephaniah's Isreal which overcomes is a spiritual people having no need of wrath in the scheme of God's love. They will return to the earth after the earth is totally purged by wrath, which is purged of all physical life which is corrupt due to the fall. New life and a new man will emerge or the earth will be recreated with new life which will not be vexed by sin, because sin will be no more. And sin being no more, all will be in all as it was originally designed to be.

So Zephaniah's prophecy has the struggle of the gentile being grafted in and the return of Israel to the faith within, but faintly mentioned.  For Zephaniah man's struggle is a spiritual one, not a physical one, although it affects the physical, as is the case with Jesus' ministry on earth  today and continuing  up to the end when the kingdom will be handed to the Father and all will be in all.


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> How does that square with Luke 1:33?
> 
> and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end."



At first insight, what is the foundation of the house of Jacob or his house? What is the foundation of our spiritual kingdom?

Is it not faith or a faith relationship with the living God and Jacob and his house, with God and us?

Is it not His loving reign in blessing and correction through wrath in this life and blessing only in the life to come when  all will be to the house of Jacob perfected by His love? Are we graphed first physically into Israel or spiritually? We are made sons spiritually first.  At the resurrection perhaps we will take on a new assigned physicality from a universally share spiritual makeup? And not the other way around?

By the way if you are even a bit romantic I am told in one bible translation that Zephaniah means... " he whom the Lord has hidden". Why would  the Lord hide his prophet and possibly his prophecy in plain sight--in recorded word, in scripture for all to read? Could it be that without a solid foundation due faith, it would cause many to die spiritually, something akin to those fearing to see the face of God or hearing his voice... those who for sin could not yet stand ever closer to Him no matter what... those who still in their infantile hearts would deem God's love foolishness? Could it be that in plain view Zephaniah's prophecy  given the arrogance in even great spiritual men and women could make them think it wise and possible to dodge what is impossible in this life, which is God's wrath or corrections ( His chastisement due the penalties for sin)?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> How does that square with Luke 1:33?
> 
> and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end."



1 Corinthians 15:24-26
Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Hebrews 1:13
And God never said to any of the angels, "Sit in the place of honor at my right hand until I humble your enemies, making them a footstool under your feet."

I can see where God talks of destroying the earth as meaning only the people and some of the infrastructure. Both of the destruction accounts we are discussing, leave enough people and enough of the cities for re-population.

These appear to be actual enemies of Israel until it mentions death being destroyed also.

Still as we discuss all of this, is man trying to separate the spiritual from the physical. One man sees one event as only spiritual. Another sees it as only physical. Maybe it is both.

Now as you believe the earth and life on it will continue, and in regards to Luke 1:33, where is this kingdom that Jesus will reign over forever? 

"and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end."

We know it is the house of Jacob. (Jacob's descendants) We know that Gentiles were grafted into it. 

Yet we read that in the end, he turns the Kingdom over to the Father. Do we use the Trinity for the answer?


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Yet we read that in the end, he turns the Kingdom over to the Father. Do we use the Trinity for the answer?




I see "the end" as the end of the Old covenant.  That was the end of the world/age. This means I see the Kingdom being handed over as it shows both the Son and the Father reigning from a single throne in Revelation 22.

Ephesians 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gordon 2 said:


> I can. Zephaniah's prophecy goes from the days of wrath to the days when God's wrath will be no more and includes the Jews and the Gentiles. Paul is taking about two peoples Jews and Gentiles who are still in the grips of wrath. Therefore Zephaniah's is a sweep over of the mystery Paul is talking about.
> 
> Zephaniah's Isreal which overcomes is a spiritual people having no need of wrath in the scheme of God's love. They will return to the earth after the earth is totally purged by wrath, which is purged of all physical life which is corrupt due to the fall. New life and a new man will emerge or the earth will be recreated with new life which will not be vexed by sin, because sin will be no more. And sin being no more, all will be in all as it was originally designed to be.
> 
> So Zephaniah's prophecy has the struggle of the gentile being grafted in and the return of Israel to the faith within, but faintly mentioned.  For Zephaniah man's struggle is a spiritual one, not a physical one, although it affects the physical, as is the case with Jesus' ministry on earth  today and continuing  up to the end when the kingdom will be handed to the Father and all will be in all.



Do you see  Zephaniah's prophecy as a future one and the destruction described by Luke 21:5-38 as a past event?

Some see the Luke one as parallel or dual in describing the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD and a future destruction. 

Zephaniah's account leaves enough left for the remnant to inhabit. Unless the prophesy is 100% spiritual. Maybe the sheep pastures on the coast are figurative. Maybe the birds roosting in Nineveh were figurative. Maybe the dispersed Jews were transported to a spiritual Jerusalem. 

I do understand that their struggle was spiritual but I think the results were physical. Paul said "all Israel will be saved." Zephaniah said "God will take away their punishment."

What do you mead when you said; "Therefore Zephaniah's is a sweep over of the mystery Paul is talking about?"

Are they accounts of the same destruction? Does it appear to you that after this destruction, the ones left lived on the physical earth and in a physical city? Perhaps like some view our bodies, glorified. A new earth and Jerusalem that is still physical but somehow renewed by God. 

The more I would really like to take the "physical" away, the more I see it in scripture. I would love for everything to end up spiritual one day. I would love for all prophesy to read as "spiritual."

Maybe when we finally see Jesus as he is and become like him, it will be 100% spiritual. Then again Jesus went to Heaven physically. I guess he's returning physically. Like Hobbs says, the line is very curvy.
It's easy for him because everything in his mind is "finished."

I just don't see how he can read Zephaniah and see this as already happened. Then again I can't see how one reads Luke's account of the destruction and not see that it happened in 70AD.

I seem to struggle with the issue of "crossing over" my beliefs more than most. Perhaps not, most folks go from partial to full. Most folks go from the Trinity or Oneness to believing in a pre-existing Jesus first. Then to a Jesus that didn't pre-exist. Sometimes it's hard to make the plunge so to speak.
Actually most folks don't ever change their indoctrination. I went from freewill to partial predestination to election. I think most people are in the partial predestination camp. Nothing is black and white.

I can definitely see Hobbs point of view though. Maybe I'm in the Partial-Preterist camp.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> I see "the end" as the end of the Old covenant.  That was the end of the world/age. This means I see the Kingdom being handed over as it shows both the Son and the Father reigning from a single throne in Revelation 22.
> 
> Ephesians 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.



Yet you see the destruction account in Luke as literal. You read what happened to the city.

1 Corinthians 15:24-26
Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

You don't see the end as when Jesus destroys all dominion, authority, and power on the physical earth? 

It's funny what we as individuals see in scripture as literal and figurative to make our own lines less curvy.
We as individuals see some events as physical and others as spiritual. Whatever makes the big picture fit into our beliefs.

Such as reading the 70Ad destruction account in Luke and suggesting that somewhere in the middle of it, it switches from the 70AD account to a future account. Right in the middle of the same account even. Hard to grasp even for a futurist.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Yet you see the destruction account in Luke as literal. You read what happened to the city.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 15:24-26
> Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
> 
> You don't see the end as when Jesus destroys all dominion, authority, and power on the physical earth?
> 
> It's funny what we as individuals see in scripture as literal and figurative to make our own lines less curvy.
> We as individuals see some events as physical and others as spiritual. Whatever makes the big picture fit into our beliefs.
> 
> Such as reading the 70Ad destruction account in Luke and suggesting that somewhere in the middle of it, it switches from the 70AD account to a future account. Right in the middle of the same account even. Hard to grasp even for a futurist.



Physical earth?  Yes and No. One needs to define what was the dominion,  power,  and authority that was put under His feet. 

 If it was in one central location then it could be both local and global.


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> I see "the end" as the end of the Old covenant.  That was the end of the world/age. This means I see the Kingdom being handed over as it shows both the Son and the Father reigning from a single throne in Revelation 22.
> 
> Ephesians 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.



The world without end here is understood in  all of scripture if the world here means the earth, or the planet.  The JW are fond of pointing out that the foundations of the world, of the earth, cannot be shaken up as to destroy the earth.


Psalm 104:5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.


----------



## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> Do you see  Zephaniah's prophecy as a future one and the destruction described by Luke 21:5-38 as a past event?
> 
> Some see the Luke one as parallel or dual in describing the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD and a future destruction.
> 
> Zephaniah's account leaves enough left for the remnant to inhabit. Unless the prophesy is 100% spiritual. Maybe the sheep pastures on the coast are figurative. Maybe the birds roosting in Nineveh were figurative. Maybe the dispersed Jews were transported to a spiritual Jerusalem.
> 
> I do understand that their struggle was spiritual but I think the results were physical. Paul said "all Israel will be saved." Zephaniah said "God will take away their punishment."
> 
> What do you mead when you said; "Therefore Zephaniah's is a sweep over of the mystery Paul is talking about?"
> 
> Are they accounts of the same destruction? Does it appear to you that after this destruction, the ones left lived on the physical earth and in a physical city? Perhaps like some view our bodies, glorified. A new earth and Jerusalem that is still physical but somehow renewed by God.
> 
> The more I would really like to take the "physical" away, the more I see it in scripture. I would love for everything to end up spiritual one day. I would love for all prophesy to read as "spiritual."
> 
> Maybe when we finally see Jesus as he is and become like him, it will be 100% spiritual. Then again Jesus went to Heaven physically. I guess he's returning physically. Like Hobbs says, the line is very curvy.
> It's easy for him because everything in his mind is "finished."
> 
> I just don't see how he can read Zephaniah and see this as already happened. Then again I can't see how one reads Luke's account of the destruction and not see that it happened in 70AD.
> 
> I seem to struggle with the issue of "crossing over" my beliefs more than most. Perhaps not, most folks go from partial to full. Most folks go from the Trinity or Oneness to believing in a pre-existing Jesus first. Then to a Jesus that didn't pre-exist. Sometimes it's hard to make the plunge so to speak.
> Actually most folks don't ever change their indoctrination. I went from freewill to partial predestination to election. I think most people are in the partial predestination camp. Nothing is black and white.
> 
> I can definitely see Hobbs point of view though. Maybe I'm in the Partial-Preterist camp.



The grasshoppers asks many questions. 
I see Zephaniah's remnant as the saints of all time those in heaven and those living and that when the end time comes, the saints living and those dead in the Lord will somehow meet up alive ( physically). They will be raised up physically, 
but what makes them unlike what we can claim now is that they will all have common union in their spiritual nature, or faith. The purpose of wrath and God's ministry of consolation and hope  is to get as many human beings to this point. Perhaps.

I seem to think now that Zephaniah's prophecy as it applies to physical Isreal and spiritual Isreal ( which I understand to be a noun and an descriptive adjective meaning the saints of all nations since the fall)  is not far from what the apostles thought  and understood what the end was going to be like. This seems most true when I read Paul with a grasping at to why he would say things concerning the resurrection and the end times as he does. The end time in Zephaniah is the same one in the Gospels in my view. What makes Zeph's prophecy a sweep is he does not go through the historical detail regards how the gentiles will be grafted in at some point from a departure of his time and his prophecy to the end time itself. Zeph's end time vision  is the same end time vision that the Gospel folk knew and understood... and questioned Jesus about... perhaps...

Zeph's emphasis on the "meek" in his prophecy seem in accord to the Beatitudes when Matthew records the saying of our Lord that " The meek shall inherit the earth." For me this is a cut and paste right out of the prophet's endtime vision... Maybe... 

But listen to me very well, I'm praying on this... my outlook might be a creature of a blinding wrath for all I know... yet... for faith... I doubt this... but would rather be humble and silent than to mislead... or lead someone to stumble... 

So Bros... don't season  your relationship with God with my notions... Be Aware! 

 Now I will read Luke as you noted. Will be back on it soon.


----------



## gordon 2

Ok so regards Luke 21:5-38. The way I read it is that wars, nations against nations, and the destruction of Jerusalem and wars concerning the people who occupy or don't occupy Palestine are NOT signs of the end time. NOT SIGN! These are simply a feature of wrath active in our present world and nothing else....  

What is a sign of the end time is the shake up of the heavens which will rub out life as we know it. This is the sign of the second coming according to Jesus... if St. Luke recorded Him correctly ( no reason to believe he did not).

26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

Jesus goes on to state:

34 “Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. 35 For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

This reminds me of Zephaniah's comments but especially:

Seek the Lord.... It may be you will be hidden in the day of the Lord's anger.



Now to move this along a bit farther, I think what Revelations gives us is a view as to what is going to transpire after the great event where life will be removed from the earth or when evil will be completely purged from the earth. 

I think what it points to is that the saints are going to reoccupy it... And God will visit them and they will be all of one accord and wrath will have been done away with, having done it's purpose to return man to his intended origin physically and spiritually.

So what do you say bros?


----------



## hobbs27

Matthew 10:23 "But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.

Luke 21:32 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place.

Luke 21:20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gordon 2 said:


> Ok so regards Luke 21:5-38. The way I read it is that wars, nations against nations, and the destruction of Jerusalem and wars concerning the people who occupy or don't occupy Palestine are NOT signs of the end time. NOT SIGN! These are simply a feature of wrath active in our present world and nothing else....
> 
> What is a sign of the end time is the shake up of the heavens which will rub out life as we know it. This is the sign of the second coming according to Jesus... if St. Luke recorded Him correctly ( no reason to believe he did not).
> 
> So what do you say bros?



Do you see a parallel with the destruction of Jerusalem in Luke 21 and the future end time?


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> Matthew 10:23 "But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.
> 
> Luke 21:32 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place.
> 
> Luke 21:20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.


 

Well Yea surrounded by armies Jerusalem's desolation is older than Job. Nothing new there. And I might add nothing that I see anywhere that it will not be so again. Jerusalem has always been stiff necked.  But I digress..


No on generation. This generation, that generation.  To Tom it means one thing, to Dick another, and to Harry yet something else.  But someones said that God does not count generations as we do and not as Tom, Dick or Harriette.

So I'm gona stab at what a generation is to God... that would make it different in the understanding we have of a generation. Here goes.

A generation to God is a spiritual generation, not a physical generation. In this way a generation was the people said captives and made free from ancient Egypt said the Hebrews. They were are a spiritual generation and still are.  From  the birth of our Lord God formed another generation. From His birth on this is an other generation. Both these generations were "engendered" spiritually by God ministering to the needs of His people.

So that the generation that will not pass away until Jerusalem is sacked is ours. Wars are a feature of fallen nature and wrath simply. And simply, the desolation of Jerusalem is not a sign of the second coming. It is simply a part of " there will be wars and rumors of war" and "these things must come to pass" and thereafter the second coming or the end of the "world" or simply the end.... Jerusalem's fall and the exile of its population has nothing to do with The Second Coming. Perhaps.

But hey I bet you seen waxing like this on  the meaning of generations for ever... not meaning to change your mind bros. Just saying what it means in my mind which like yours I'm letting God form just as much or more than my contribution to it hopefully...


----------



## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> Do you see a parallel with the destruction of Jerusalem in Luke 21 and the future end time?




No I don't. It seems to me that sin will see to  physical Jerusalem's destruction ( desolation) if it ever happens again. Or in other words if Jerusalem becomes arrogant and unjust they are going to suffer some sort of consequence similar to what all the prophets have warned since ever the Hebrews walked into Canaan land... If Jerusalem believes that they are their own guarantee of their liberty, be it by their might or government, that they have a right to Palestine because they deem themselves a special "exceptional" nation... they might get a light show again they don't particularly  like... and that rain is gona fall on the just and the unjust... for the time being as it has for a few spiritual generations sin the fall....

But what I don't see now does not mean I will not see it in the future... So don't drive to the bank with what I see...


----------



## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> No I don't. It seems to me that sin will see to  physical Jerusalem's destruction ( desolation) if it ever happens again. Or in other words if Jerusalem becomes arrogant and unjust they are going to suffer some sort of consequence similar to what all the prophets have warned since ever the Hebrews walked into Canaan land... If Jerusalem believes that they are their own guarantee of their liberty, be it by their might or government, that they have a right to Palestine because they deem themselves a special "exceptional" nation... they might get a light show again they don't particularly  like... and that rain is gona fall on the just and the unjust... for the time being as it has for a few spiritual generations sin the fall....
> 
> But what I don't see now does not mean I will not see it in the future... So don't drive to the bank with what I see...



" If Jerusalem becomes arrogant and unjust"

How more arrogant and unjust can you become than to deny Jesus is the Christ?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Matthew 16:28
"Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Spiritual generation? Our spiritual generation will not die until the Son of Man comes?


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> " If Jerusalem becomes arrogant and unjust"
> 
> How more arrogant and unjust can you become than to deny Jesus is the Christ?



 I think that what might be worse is to behave unjustly towards your  neighbor.... I think that is the song that some prophets sang to their people in high places...

It is perhaps understandable that one would not recognize Jesus for who He is, but there is no excuse not to recognize who your neighbor is.


----------



## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> Matthew 16:28
> "Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."
> 
> Spiritual generation? Our spiritual generation will not die until the Son of Man comes?



Yes. He came into his Kingdom via the church and within this generation of Christians as the life giving Lamb of God, .. but this is not the end... as in His  Second Coming... perhaps...

 The Son of Man is with the Father, the Kingdom is now ministered to here on earth by the Holy Spirit "aspect" of God to use Ronnie's word for person.  Our Kingdom is made up of the saints in heaven who are there with Jesus and the Father and the saints here on earth who abide by faith in Him, God with us.


----------



## hobbs27

Possibly one has a problem if they admit His Kingdom has come but the end has not? 


and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end."


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> Possibly one has a problem if they admit His Kingdom has come but the end has not?
> 
> 
> and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end."



Well the Kingdom has come and the end not.


Nothing looks like the perfection that the prophets talk about regards the end.

But the Kingdom is promised to Hum.... :

"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven".

Now tell me these poor in spirit in our lifetimes they know the kingdom of heaven in vain?

Now about this:

"Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

Do you think that this persecution will happen at the Second Coming ?  If anything at the Second Coming blessings will follow the saints not persecution. maybe?

 I would agree that His Kingdom has no end, but nothing indicates that is begins at the Second Coming. Personally I think it was active when Jesus said it is " at hand" and " in you" to the folk in his days of ministry before the cross.

PS your paragraphs are getting short. I'm getting worried.... it is not like you two. Or are you watching the football game and glancing here between hotwing and chilli snacks...?


----------



## hobbs27

Isiah 9:7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.


----------



## hobbs27

Revelation 11:15

Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."


----------



## hobbs27

Daniel 2:44 "In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> Isiah 9:7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.




Right exactly "increase of His government", on the throne of David and over his kingdom...to establish it... and to uphold it.... Yet it is increasing and being upheld...

 I take it that Jesus as descended for David occupies this throne... spiritually speaking...


----------



## hobbs27

Tell me more about the end of His kingdom.


----------



## hobbs27

Hebrews 1:8 Hebrews 1:8

But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> Daniel 2:44 "In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.



Yep... that is exactly what our kingdom is... now! It is for a people of faith and does not matter which nation they come from. It will put an end to all other kingdoms... ( just think what the "service" aspect of Christianity has done the world over...  No reason to believe that God would put an end to His kingdom... after all its constitution is based on love, His love. Right now it is operating in a world of sin and sorry of, of grace and wrath. After the Second Coming it will not be active in a world with wrath, but it will be active...  and He will sing to us...  presumably in love only.


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> Tell me more about the end of His kingdom.



There will never be and end to His kingdom. Why do you ask me this...? Am I missing something?


----------



## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> There will never be and end to His kingdom. Why do you ask me this...? Am I missing something?



If His kingdom is now as you and I have agreed.. Then there is no end.  The end came to the earthly kingdom of Israel/Jerusalem.


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> If His kingdom is now as you and I have agreed.. Then there is no end.  The end came to the earthly kingdom of Israel/Jerusalem.



Ok.... but what does have to do with this:

The Lord...

has taken away your punishment,
    he has turned back your enemy.
The Lord, the King of Israel, is with you;
    never again will you fear any harm.
16 On that day
    they will say to Jerusalem,
“Do not fear, Zion;
    do not let your hands hang limp.
17 The Lord your God is with you,
    the Mighty Warrior who saves.
He will take great delight in you;
    in his love he will no longer rebuke you,
    but will rejoice over you with singing.”

---------------

When did this happen? 

I think I was rebuked every day this week...  You?
I suffer punishment everyday... You?

The end, the Second Coming,  will include the above in my view... no more rebuke, not more wrath, and I ain't seen it yet!


----------



## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> Ok.... but what does have to do with this:
> 
> The Lord...
> 
> has taken away your punishment,
> he has turned back your enemy.
> The Lord, the King of Israel, is with you;
> never again will you fear any harm.
> 16 On that day
> they will say to Jerusalem,
> “Do not fear, Zion;
> do not let your hands hang limp.
> 17 The Lord your God is with you,
> the Mighty Warrior who saves.
> He will take great delight in you;
> in his love he will no longer rebuke you,
> but will rejoice over you with singing.”
> 
> ---------------
> 
> When did this happen?
> 
> I think I was rebuked every day this week...  You?
> I suffer punishment everyday... You?
> 
> The end, the Second Coming,  will include the above in my view... no more rebuke, not more wrath, and I ain't seen it yet!




It's apocalyptic language.  It's not familiar to us and our culture,  not our time. 

I can't tonight,  but maybe tomorrow night I will demonstrate many places of prophecy that shows an end... Even one that says the sky will role up like a scroll... These prophecies have come to pass over the destruction of other cities in the B. C era. 

It's an interesting look at how they used figurative and exaggerated language. 

For tonight... I'm watching the Falcons rise up!


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> It's apocalyptic language.  It's not familiar to us and our culture,  not our time.
> 
> I can't tonight,  but maybe tomorrow night I will demonstrate many places of prophecy that shows an end... Even one that says the sky will role up like a scroll... These prophecies have come to pass over the destruction of other cities in the B. C era.
> 
> It's an interesting look at how they used figurative and exaggerated language.
> 
> For tonight... I'm watching the Falcons rise up!



 Ok... you mean Lady Gaga come down! Right...  LOl

Who's the underdog...?

Oh and "in his love he will not rebuke you" makes perfect common, usual sense to me....


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> It's apocalyptic language.  It's not familiar to us and our culture,  not our time.
> 
> I can't tonight,  but maybe tomorrow night I will demonstrate many places of prophecy that shows an end... Even one that says the sky will role up like a scroll... These prophecies have come to pass over the destruction of other cities in the B. C era.
> 
> It's an interesting look at how they used figurative and exaggerated language.
> 
> For tonight... I'm watching the Falcons rise up!



Yeah, I'm eating Buffalo Chicken dip which is pretty good. I'm looking forward to how you explain away the scripture Gordon presented in post 58. It doesn't appear like that has happened yet. I haven't experienced Zephaniah's prophesy yet either. 
So please explain that ending and the one in Luke or Matthew.

Go Falcons!


----------



## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> Yeah, I'm eating Buffalo Chicken dip which is pretty good. I'm looking forward to how you explain away the scripture Gordon presented in post 58. It doesn't appear like that has happened yet. I haven't experienced Zephaniah's prophesy yet either.
> So please explain that ending and the one in Luke or Matthew.
> 
> Go Falcons!



Why can't the receivers for the Patriots hold onto their passes? And the ones for the Falcon can? What's up with that?


----------



## Artfuldodger

gordon 2 said:


> Why can't the receivers for the Patriots hold onto their passes? And the ones for the Falcon can? What's up with that?



When they grab the Falcons, they get wing sauce on their hands.


----------



## Artfuldodger

In Zephaniah literal nations and cities will be destroyed. The arrogant boasters will be removed from the literal city of Jerusalem. The ones left will never rebel against the LORD any longer.  The remnant of Israel will trust in the name of the LORD. The remnant of Israel will do no wrong.

Sing, Daughter Zion; shout aloud, Israel! Be glad and rejoice with all your heart, Daughter Jerusalem!
The LORD has taken away your punishment, he has turned back your enemy. The LORD, the King of Israel, is with you; never again will you fear any harm.
On that day they will say to Jerusalem, "Do not fear, Zion; do not let your hands hang limp.

Within this prophesy, when did it switch from a literal Jerusalem to a spiritual Jerusalem?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Oh no, the wing sauce is wearing off!


----------



## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> Oh no, the wing sauce is wearing off!



It's like your recent elections... kind of close...


----------



## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> In Zephaniah literal nations and cities will be destroyed. The arrogant boasters will be removed from the literal city of Jerusalem. The ones left will never rebel against the LORD any longer.  The remnant of Israel will trust in the name of the LORD. The remnant of Israel will do no wrong.
> 
> Sing, Daughter Zion; shout aloud, Israel! Be glad and rejoice with all your heart, Daughter Jerusalem!
> The LORD has taken away your punishment, he has turned back your enemy. The LORD, the King of Israel, is with you; never again will you fear any harm.
> On that day they will say to Jerusalem, "Do not fear, Zion; do not let your hands hang limp.
> 
> Within this prophesy, when did it switch from a literal Jerusalem to a spiritual Jerusalem?



Right around the blue area.... maybe and "he has turned back your enemy" which ain't happening soon Kushner or no Kushner or the Second Coming is at hand!  

I don't watch football but there is always a new game at about the three minute mark at the end of the forth quarter in most games I've watched.


----------



## hobbs27

Apocalyptic language Examples.. Including the prophecies of 586bc.


One great example of how this language is over exaggerated,  we see in David's story of Saul out to kill him and how the Lord intervened.  I'm assuming we are all familiar with the story.  Now look at how David explains it in Psalm 18....also 2 Samuel 22.

“I love You, O Lord, my strength.”
2 The Lord is my *rock and my fortress and my deliverer,
My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge;
My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.
3 I call upon the Lord, who is worthy to be praised,
And I am saved from my enemies.
4 The cords of death encompassed me,
And the torrents of [c]ungodliness [d]terrified me.
5 The cords of [e]Sheol surrounded me;
The snares of death confronted me.
6 In my distress I called upon the Lord,
And cried to my God for help;
He heard my voice out of His temple,
And my cry for help before Him came into His ears.
7 Then the earth shook and quaked;
And the foundations of the mountains were trembling
And were shaken, because He was angry.
8 Smoke went up [f]out of His nostrils,
And fire from His mouth devoured;
Coals were kindled by it.
9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With thick darkness under His feet.
10 He rode upon a cherub and flew;
And He sped upon the wings of the wind.
11 He made darkness His hiding place, His [g]canopy around Him,
Darkness of waters, thick clouds of the skies.
12 From the brightness before Him passed His thick clouds,
Hailstones and coals of fire.
13 The Lord also thundered in the heavens,
And the Most High uttered His voice,
Hailstones and coals of fire.
14 He sent out His arrows, and scattered them,
And lightning flashes in abundance, and [h]routed them.
15 Then the channels of water appeared,
And the foundations of the world were laid bare
At Your rebuke, O Lord,
At the blast of the breath of Your nostrils.
16 He sent from on high, He took me;
He drew me out of many waters.
17 He delivered me from my strong enemy,
And from those who hated me, for they were too mighty for me.
18 They confronted me in the day of my calamity,
But the Lord was my stay.

Sounds like a story my children would have told,  while there's truth there,  there's also a lot... I mean a lot,  of drama and over exaggeration. This was their cultural style of writing though,  so let's consider that as we read. 


Now.  I stated earlier that Zephaniah prophecy was about the destruction of Jerusalem and surrounding nations in 586bc. 

 At first it seemed to fit the bill for the destruction in 70ad, but then I noticed the time statements in Zephaniah,  stating it was soon to happen. 

 According to my research Zephaniah prophesied this one year prior in 587.bc.

 Zephaniah was not the only prophet to foretell this event.  We also find it Isaiah 34, Jeremiah 25, Ezekiel 35, and Obadiah.  

In Isaiah 34 We read of total destruction coming upon the world.   you got to notice how this over exaggerated destruction involves internal contradictions if you translate it literally without consideration of their apocalyptic language. 

Isaiah 34: Come near, you nations, and listen;
    pay attention, you peoples!
Let the earth hear, and all that is in it,
    the world, and all that comes out of it!
2 The Lord is angry with all nations;
    his wrath is on all their armies.
He will totally destroy[a] them,
    he will give them over to slaughter.
3 Their slain will be thrown out,
    their dead bodies will stink;
    the mountains will be soaked with their blood.
4 All the stars in the sky will be dissolved
    and the heavens rolled up like a scroll;
all the starry host will fall
    like withered leaves from the vine,
    like shriveled figs from the fig tree.
5 My sword has drunk its fill in the heavens;
    see, it descends in judgment on Edom,
    the people I have totally destroyed.
6 The sword of the Lord is bathed in blood,
    it is covered with fat—
the blood of lambs and goats,
    fat from the kidneys of rams.
For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah
    and a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7 And the wild oxen will fall with them,
    the bull calves and the great bulls.
Their land will be drenched with blood,
    and the dust will be soaked with fat.
8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
    a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause.
9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
    her dust into burning sulfur;
    her land will become blazing pitch!
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
    its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
    no one will ever pass through it again.

Note: stars of the sky dissolved,  and heavens rolled up like a scroll. Sounds like the end of the universe.. Right?   But wait. Look what happens in this land after the universe is destroyed. 

Isaiah 34 The desert owl and screech owl[c] will possess it;
    the great owl[d] and the raven will nest there.
God will stretch out over Edom
    the measuring line of chaos
    and the plumb line of desolation.
12 Her nobles will have nothing there to be called a kingdom,
    all her princes will vanish away.
13 Thorns will overrun her citadels,
    nettles and brambles her strongholds.
She will become a haunt for jackals,
    a home for owls.
14 Desert creatures will meet with hyenas,
    and wild goats will bleat to each other;
there the night creatures will also lie down
    and find for themselves places of rest.
15 The owl will nest there and lay eggs,
    she will hatch them, and care for her young
    under the shadow of her wings;
there also the falcons will gather,
    each with its mate.

Life continues in the land after the world is destroyed!   Hmm. This was a place that was going to burn and it's smoke go up forever... What animals and thorns thrive in fire and smoke? 
 Also no time statements of this even in Isaiah. 


Now,  200years later Jeremiah prophesies of this very event we began studying in Zephaniah. 

 Jeremiah  helps us time the event because he puts it in the time of nebuchadnezzar

Jeremiah 25: 8 “Therefore thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘Because you have not obeyed My words, 9 behold, I will send and take all the families of the north,’ declares the Lord, ‘and I will send to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, My servant, and will bring them against this land and against its inhabitants and against all these nations round about; and I will [f]utterly destroy them and make them a horror and a hissing, and an everlasting desolation.

 This prevents the prophecy from being in our future,  it prevents it from being in 70ad, and it prevents it from being any other time,  than 586bc. God uses the Babylonians just as He used the Roman's in 70ad.


Ezekiel 35 .  Shows the reason Edom was judged. Mount sier was the capital city of Edom.  They were to face judgment for celebrating the judgment that fell on Israel. 


Because you have had everlasting enmity and have delivered the sons of Israel to the power of the sword at the time of their calamity, at the time of the [c]punishment of the end,


In Malachi we see a prophet looking back on the judgment of 586bc. 

Malachi 1 2 “I have loved you,” says the Lord.

“But you ask, ‘How have you loved us?’

“Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the Lord. “Yet I have loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his hill country into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.”

4 Edom may say, “Though we have been crushed, we will rebuild the ruins.”

But this is what the Lord Almighty says: “They may build, but I will demolish. They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of the Lord. 5 You will see it with your own eyes and say, ‘Great is the Lord—even beyond the borders of Israel!’*


----------



## hobbs27

Just a side note. " The day of the Lord"  is a day of God's wrath,  there's been several,  so to mention it,  doesn't necessarily point to one particular day of wrath.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Just a side note. " The day of the Lord"  is a day of God's wrath,  there's been several,  so to mention it,  doesn't necessarily point to one particular day of wrath.



OK, that takes care of the end not being the END. I agree life continues after Zephaniah's account. 
What about what follows with God taking away their punishment, leaving a remnant,the dispersed coming back home, God restoring their fortunes, God emptying the city of the of arrogant boasters, and taking away their fear forever?

If never means never as in the city will always stand, doesn't forever mean forever? Such as God will take away their punishment and fear forever? Did God do that in 586BC? Did God take away their enemies forever in 586BC or is that just language?


----------



## gordon 2

Revelations 19 is exaggerated poetry only? Darn!  The great CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredCensored will not be judged and the Lamb's wife will not make herself ready?  Darn!


----------



## hobbs27

Isaiah 34: 10 It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever.


Is this smoke still rising today?


----------



## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> Revelations 19 is exaggerated poetry only? Darn!  The great CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredCensored will not be judged and the Lamb's wife will not make herself ready?  Darn!



You added (only)  , that's not what I said.


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> You added (only)  , that's not what I said.




Your right. You did not say this.


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> Isaiah 34: 10 It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever.
> 
> 
> Is this smoke still rising today?



How do you know that that  the prophecy in Chapter 34  is not for some future time when " he had utterly destroyed them"? Would not "the smoke that will go up forever" be as a view of the "lake of fire" that will be eternal?


----------



## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> How do you know that that  the prophecy in Chapter 34  is not for some future time when " he had utterly destroyed them"? Would not "the smoke that will go up forever" be as a view of the "lake of fire" that will be eternal?



I researched many sources.  here's one such source.  http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/fulfill.shtml

I found many more like this one... https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.gotquestions.org/amp/prophecies-against-Edom.html


----------



## hobbs27

What's really interesting is the language used in the prophecy about God's wrath on Israel in 586bc, when He used the Babylonians to destroy Jerusalem and the temple.... How close it is to the language in Revelation....


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> I researched many sources.  here's one such source.  http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/fulfill.shtml
> 
> I found many more like this one... https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.gotquestions.org/amp/prophecies-against-Edom.html



thanks.... 

What about the idea that  judgement prophecy is twin.. in that it is for its time and a time to come when it will be the last judgement? Ideas?

Here is a link that illustrates this I think. I like it. Hope you do as well.

https://bible.org/seriespage/42-book-zephaniah

 For speed  you might what to scroll down to the faintly hi -lighted heading The Message of Zephaniah.


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> What's really interesting is the language used in the prophecy about God's wrath on Israel in 586bc, when He used the Babylonians to destroy Jerusalem and the temple.... How close it is to the language in Revelation....



It is close isn't it.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gordon 2 said:


> thanks....
> 
> What about the idea that  judgement prophecy is twin.. in that it is for its time and a time to come when it will be the last judgement? Ideas?
> 
> Here is a link that illustrates this I think. I like it. Hope you do as well.
> 
> https://bible.org/seriespage/42-book-zephaniah
> 
> For speed  you might what to scroll down to the faintly hi -lighted heading The Message of Zephaniah.



I remember a discussion where one showed the verse where the account, in one of the gospels, switches from the 70AD destruction to end times destruction. Kinda like twin prophesy.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Hobbs, in comments on my post #70?

I'll add this too;

Sing, Daughter Zion; shout aloud, Israel! Be glad and rejoice with all your heart, Daughter Jerusalem!
The LORD has taken away your punishment, he has turned back your enemy. The LORD, the King of Israel, is with you; never again will you fear any harm.
On that day they will say to Jerusalem, "Do not fear, Zion; do not let your hands hang limp.

Even if this is apocalyptic, see post #70?


----------



## gordon 2

1 Peter 3; 20

God waithed in the days of Noah, while the ark was  preparing.... that is eight souls were saved by  water.


 Is this the first type of a remnant?


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Hobbs, in comments on my post #70?
> 
> I'll add this too;
> 
> Sing, Daughter Zion; shout aloud, Israel! Be glad and rejoice with all your heart, Daughter Jerusalem!
> The LORD has taken away your punishment, he has turned back your enemy. The LORD, the King of Israel, is with you; never again will you fear any harm.
> On that day they will say to Jerusalem, "Do not fear, Zion; do not let your hands hang limp.
> 
> Even if this is apocalyptic, see post #70?



Israel/Jerusalem is God's physical bride in the old Testament.  There stood a physical temple,  with physical priests.

 The New Bride,  the New Jerusalem is not physical,  it came down from heaven.  In a way you can say physical Jerusalem died in 70ad , was resurrected and remmaried as the Bride of Christ. 

 God's promises are still holding, only they have increased in measure and are not limited to a small geographical area.


----------



## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> 1 Peter 3; 20
> 
> God waithed in the days of Noah, while the ark was  preparing.... that is eight souls were saved by  water.
> 
> 
> Is this the first type of a remnant?




I believe so,  God always left a remnant.  Lot is another example. 

 The Christians, all of which escaped the destruction in 70ad are another.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Where is this New Jerusalem that came down from Heaven? Why is Old Jerusalem still inhabited?


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Where is this New Jerusalem that came down from Heaven? Why is Old Jerusalem still inhabited?



The New Jerusalem is spiritual,  it's the Kingdom of Heaven,  it is not of this world... It is in our midst. 

The old one is inhabited,  but not of God's people.  It's changed hands over many centuries and only became to be recognized as a Jewish state in 1948. A decision I believe was a grave mistake.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Hobbs, when you read Romans 11, is this what you gather? Maybe the account in Romans 11 is still physical before the New Jerusalem came;

Romans 11:25-27
 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove godlessness from Jacob.  27And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

Godlessness has been removed from Jacob?


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Hobbs, when you read Romans 11, is this what you gather? Maybe the account in Romans 11 is still physical before the New Jerusalem came;
> 
> Romans 11:25-27
> I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove godlessness from Jacob.  27And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
> 
> Godlessness has been removed from Jacob?



Art,  the Pharisee and scribes and those that shouted out,  Crucify Him!  Those that supported Him being crucified.  Were Godlessness... Israel  was not by genealogy,  but by Faith.... By Faith all of Israel was saved and Godlessness was removed from her...


----------



## hobbs27

Something else of the blindness.  It was for a period.  It pointed to the coming judgment.  God removed that Godlessness,  and there is no more Jew nor Greek,  so there is no more Jew to blind.  
 To think Jew's are still blind to Jesus today,  but will one day have their eyes open is contrary to scripture and history,  IMO.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I've heard it said Israel was not by genealogy. If not, I wonder why God made such a big deal about it? 
There is a huge amount of genealogy and stuff about Israel for it to have never been about Israel.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I've heard it said Israel was not by genealogy. If not, I wonder why God made such a big deal about it?
> There is a huge amount of genealogy and stuff about Israel for it to have never been about Israel.




 I meant it is no longer about genealogy.  Of course it was from the Garden To the Son.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> I meant it is no longer about genealogy.  Of course it was from the Garden To the Son.



That's something I'd like to better understand. Why was it presented to be all about genealogy until the Son and then it didn't have anything to do about genealogy? Of course many say it never had anything to do about genealogy in the first place.

I guess it has something to do with genealogy if the Gentiles were grafted in to the Commonwealth of Israel.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> That's something I'd like to better understand. Why was it presented to be all about genealogy until the Son and then it didn't have anything to do about genealogy? Of course many say it never had anything to do about genealogy in the first place.
> 
> I guess it has something to do with genealogy if the Gentiles were grafted in to the Commonwealth of Israel.



Maybe research John Walton.  I have a couple  of his books. He has several YouTube videos also.  Look for the lost world of Adam and Eve.  Once you understand that,  then the rest is easy. 
 There is also a book called Beyond Creation Science which is another good source but from a preterist hermeneutic. 
John Walton is a futurist,  and to show I'm not totally biased and I'm willing to learn from others I highly recommend his teachings on Adam and Eve.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Reading Matthew about the destruction of Israel. If it is and end of time scenario, what are we having to prepare for? Why must we be ready?
Why must we stand firm to the end? Why must we flee to the mountains? Is that apocalyptic talk?

My point is if this is about a future event concerning our soul's salvation, why do we need to prepare for this future event? 
What can we do or not do to prepare for this event that would effect our salvation?

Now if it's an eminent destruction effecting a physical city or surrounding area then yes, I could prepare for that. I could use a few pointers like hiding in the mountains. I can even see why one would not want to be pregnant. I means it's sounds like a terrible destruction with life going on afterward here on earth.

If it's a future destruction where the whole word disappears,  I'm not going to be too concerned with hiding in the mountains or being pregnant. I can't see where any amount of preparation for that event is needed as because we can't do anything about it.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Sometimes when I read scripture it appears to be two salvation's. Maybe parallels. One being about salvation from the physical city of Jerusalem and it's local enemy nations and one about the salvation of our souls.

I see the genealogical salvation of the Jews with God telling them to hide in the mountains, God blinding Israel and picking a remnant, Gentiles being grafted in, God saving all Israel. For God's gifts and his call can never be withdrawn. I see some type of physical salvation for Israel. I can't fathom God having this covenant with Israel that he doesn't keep. The more I read Zephaniah, the more I confirm this. There is just way, way, too much biblical history and accounts about Israel in the Bible for this to not be true.
Exactly how it went down or it's gonna go down, I don't know but Romans 11 tells me exactly how it will happen. Romans 11 tells me I don't know the mind of God nor am I his council. I don't fully understand God's Election. All I know is God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy.

So I definitely see some type of physical salvation as promised to the Jews and prophesied by Zephaniah and the gospels. Some type of salvation, past or present, where Israel's enemies are destroyed and their fortunes restored. 

Within that salvation and perhaps parallel, I see salvation of the souls of men delivered to Jesus by God.

Maybe there is some unity of the Father and Son that we can use to see the unity of these two salvation. Separate but the same. Maybe this is a bad analogy.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I wonder if anyone ever read the whole Bible, laid it down, and said;
Man, that's a heck of a long story written before the world began.
I wonder why God presented salvation from a Jewish prospective when he never had that presentation in mind in the first place?
Just to set them up to present salvation to the Gentiles and save a Jewish remnant.
One might wonder why God didn't just present salvation to the whole world without using genealogy, Fathers, Sons, and Mothers.

Then again, if the Son has always been with the Father in Word, God had no choice but to write it the way it was already written in his mind. He had to write it with a Jewish genealogy because his Jewish Son was already with him. 

Everything already was. That's pretty deep.


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## gordon 2

Ok moving right along....


I think I have found how Christianity fits in Zephaniah's sweeping  end time vision. 

In 1 Peter 1: 3-5



3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


--------------
 The way I read this is that the saints for " faith unto salvation" are "reserved" or are  waiting in heaven, kept there by the power of God until the "last time" when they receive their inheritance of an incorruptible physicality that will be permanent ( undefiled and will not fade away) .

So Peter gets to where Zephaniah said we would go, but in the mean time we go to heaven, "reserved" there for the "late time", that is the second coming and the physical resurrection.

So we will have a physical body like Jesus had after his resurrection for according to Peter our hope as saints is from our Lord's resurrection, that it will be, as it was with Him,  ours also!

So is this an appropriate or possible reading?

Does not Revelation say somewhere that the saints in heaven are asking for this "last time" to come and they are told to wait....?


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Maybe research John Walton.  I have a couple  of his books. He has several YouTube videos also.  Look for the lost world of Adam and Eve.  Once you understand that,  then the rest is easy.
> There is also a book called Beyond Creation Science which is another good source but from a preterist hermeneutic.
> John Walton is a futurist,  and to show I'm not totally biased and I'm willing to learn from others I highly recommend his teachings on Adam and Eve.



I read a bit about Adam & Eve from John Walton's perspective. It only changes or moves the genealogy of the Jews and Jesus from Abraham to Adam. I can't see where that changes much. So what if people already existed that were from a different lineage. So what if only the Jewish lineage was wiped clean in a local flood. 

It might change some of the beginning of Jewish lineage but it doesn't change God using Adam as a lineage to choose the fall, make as priest, and the lineage of Jesus for salvation. Walton believes that Adam and Eve were not the first two humans God created. Rather, they were the couple He chose for a special calling to be His priests for all humanity. They were still chosen. Again this only moves God's choosing from Abraham to Adam for choosing Israel. We know that already. We knew Adam was the first in covenant with God. We already knew Abraham came from Adam. Even if he's not the first man.

Walton just selects Adam and Eve as the first sinners  instead of the first humans. I guess you could say this moves the first Jews or pre-Jews to have a covenant and break a covenant. Therefore God chose them to be the ones to send the Messiah through. 
I can kinda see where Walton is coming from but it doesn't change the fact that God still used a Jewish lineage first. 
Walton still doesn't explain why God chose Israel. Even if Adam was only the first pre-Jew instead of the first human, God still chose him. 

The Son was still eternal in Word. In Word we could place Adam as the first human or the first Jew, it still doesn't change the fact that Jesus was already in Word way before Adam or the first man were created. Jesus would have to be born a Jew regardless of who Adam was. 

God called Abraham to the mission of being the father of the nation through whom the world would be eternally blessed.  Regardless of Adam being the first of humanity or the first of Israel, Abraham is the father of the nation.


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## Artfuldodger

gordon 2 said:


> Ok moving right along....
> 
> I think I have found how Christianity fits in Zephaniah's sweeping  end time vision.
> 
> In 1 Peter 1: 3-5
> 
> 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
> 
> 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
> 
> 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
> 
> --------------
> The way I read this is that the saints for " faith unto salvation" are "reserved" or are  waiting in heaven, kept there by the power of God until the "last time" when they receive their inheritance of an incorruptible physicality that will be permanent ( undefiled and will not fade away) .
> 
> So Peter gets to where Zephaniah said we would go, but in the mean time we go to heaven, "reserved" there for the "late time", that is the second coming and the physical resurrection.
> 
> So we will have a physical body like Jesus had after his resurrection for according to Peter our hope as saints is from our Lord's resurrection, that it will be, as it was with Him,  ours also!
> 
> So is this an appropriate or possible reading?
> 
> Does not Revelation say somewhere that the saints in heaven are asking for this "last time" to come and they are told to wait....?



That's a pretty basic understanding that many Christians hold. They wait in Heaven for the new Jerusalem to come down from Heaven. Then they join the New Jerusalem with Jesus down on the earth. Then later they go back to Heaven.

I wonder what the difference is between a spiritual existence in Heaven waiting, and the spiritual or physical existence in the New Jerusalem? I'm trying to picture having this spiritual unity with God/Jesus in Heaven only to return to the earth with God/Jesus/Man and me as a new physical spiritual man. 

Having already seen Jesus as he is in Heaven and becoming like him only to return to the earth in a new way. Jesus will be the same. He has already resurrected. We would have already experience unity with him in Heaven.

To leave the confounds of Heaven and that unity to come back once more to the earth for a new glorified body is unfathomable.


----------



## hobbs27

Art,  so understanding Walton,  and the fact that Adam was the first covenant man doesn't help you with the genealogies?


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## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> That's a pretty basic understanding that many Christians hold. They wait in Heaven for the new Jerusalem to come down from Heaven. Then they join the New Jerusalem with Jesus down on the earth. Then later they go back to Heaven.
> 
> I wonder what the difference is between a spiritual existence in Heaven waiting, and the spiritual or physical existence in the New Jerusalem? I'm trying to picture having this spiritual unity with God/Jesus in Heaven only to return to the earth with God/Jesus/Man and me as a new physical spiritual man.
> 
> Having already seen Jesus as he is in Heaven and becoming like him only to return to the earth in a new way. Jesus will be the same. He has already resurrected. We would have already experience unity with him in Heaven.
> 
> To leave the confounds of Heaven and that unity to come back once more to the earth for a new glorified body is unfathomable.



So never heard that saints will come back to earth from heaven and return back to heaven? Where is that belief from, that is going to heaven twice? Or perhaps you mean saints will be present at the judgement and then their reward?

Now about coming back to earth as final estate, you must understand that there will be no sin and that heaven being for a reserve only, the earth is home from first design, that is where Adam was set out to live.??? My wonder is that with glorified bodies, will we walk through tornadoes or will tornadoes not be? And earthquakes and floods? The prophets say there will be no nights?


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## Artfuldodger

If heaven is only a reserve for saints, is their final destination back on earth with Jesus in the New Jerusalem?


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## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> If heaven is only a reserve for saints, is their final destination back on earth with Jesus in the New Jerusalem?



Well... that's a good question.  As I read the prophets and Peter in this case, it seems so. However man and beast might not look like what we experience now. The light of Christ, of God, will be "The Lighting". This for me is the most difficult apocalyptic concept or vision to assimilate, it being a reality so different than my experience right now...

The New Jerusalem is said to decend from heaven am I correct?


I take Peter's words seriously since he seems to state, to emphasize, by example, in his epistles, as John does in his gospel regards feeding sheep attributed to the instructions of Jesus. I would find it in keeping that Peter's outlook on "the end" was equally in keeping with his Lord's ( Jesus')  instruction on this topic.

Therefore  correctly understanding what Peter says concerning "last time"  is significant.


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## gordon 2

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

???


----------



## Artfuldodger

gordon 2 said:


> Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
> 
> ???



Reading the preceding verses I've already been made alive in the Spirit. Verse 8:11 is just confirming this.

verse9;
You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

(I'm already living or "made alive" therefore, i'm in the realm of the Spirit.) 

verse 10;
But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness.

(my body dies, my spirit lives because it's already been made alive.)

Verse 11;
And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

If this Spirit who raised Christ from the dead, lives in me, he can also give life to my mortal body. It's the Spirit living in me that gives life to my mortal body. Verse 11 is a continuation of the  previous passage. The Spirit living in me has already given "life" to my mortal body.
In other words, He can give life to our bodies that will die. Life to our mortal bodies. If we don't receive it, we will die.

Continuing with the same passage shows the whole passage is showing it's before our mortal bodies die. 

verses 12-14
12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation, but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Art,  so understanding Walton,  and the fact that Adam was the first covenant man doesn't help you with the genealogies?



Not really, is just helps me see the beginning of Israel a little better. God choosing Abraham's lineage from Adam. God choosing Adam from millions of men to start the covenant process and the lineage of David.

The whole process or plan was from God choosing Adam and Abraham. Adam wasn't an Asian or Hispanic. He was a Jew or pre-Jew.
The covenant process was through the Jews. Jesus ministered to the Jews. The promise was to Abraham.

Then later Gentiles we're grafted in or maybe it has always been about spiritual Jews, the Elect.  We find out later that not all of Abraham's descendants are his children.

Either way, Gentiles were grafted into Israel or it never was about Israel to begin with.
If this is true, then why did God use genealogy?


----------



## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> Reading the preceding verses I've already been made alive in the Spirit. Verse 8:11 is just confirming this.
> 
> verse9;
> You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
> 
> (I'm already living or "made alive" therefore, i'm in the realm of the Spirit.)
> 
> verse 10;
> But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness.
> 
> (my body dies, my spirit lives because it's already been made alive.)
> 
> Verse 11;
> And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
> 
> If this Spirit who raised Christ from the dead, lives in me, he can also give life to my mortal body. It's the Spirit living in me that gives life to my mortal body. Verse 11 is a continuation of the  previous passage. The Spirit living in me has already given "life" to my mortal body.
> In other words, He can give life to our bodies that will die. Life to our mortal bodies. If we don't receive it, we will die.
> 
> Continuing with the same passage shows the whole passage is showing it's before our mortal bodies die.
> 
> verses 12-14
> 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation, but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.




So "quicken" here does not me resurrect? That is to make the body, the flesh, immortal?


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## Artfuldodger

gordon 2 said:


> So "quicken" here does not me resurrect? That is to make the body, the flesh, immortal?



I 'm not seeing that way here in Romans 11. It's more like it's saying God is giving life to dying bodies.

Now when I read other scriptures, I see God raising sleeping in the ground bodies. Corinthians, I think. Even in those scriptures, I'm not sure it says God will reunite souls from Heaven back into those sleeping in the ground bodies.
Maybe the souls go elsewhere or maybe they stay sleeping in the ground too.

Maybe I'm missing something. After all most Christians believe, they will be made alive spiritually before their mortal bodies die. That at that point their spiritually alive soul will go to Heaven. Then at the last trumpet, they will come back to the earth as a spirit with Jesus who'll come back as a body. In other words Jesus already has his resurrected body. We must return to the earth with him to get ours.

I would think this to be most confusing to people who believe in the Trinity. I've asked folks if they go to Heaven today, will they see Jesus as being separate and most say no. If that's the case then Jesus will have to separate himself from the Godhead for his return trip back to the earth in his "parked" human resurrected, and glorified corpse. 
I guess his man soul had fellowship with those souls in"reserve" while his spirit of the Spirit went back to the Godhead. 
Unless once God became Jesus incarnate, we can only see God as Jesus.


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## Artfuldodger

In 1 Peter 1: 3-5

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

(Let me ponder this again. Maybe verse 5 is saying these souls are going to return to the Earth.)


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## Artfuldodger

1 Peter 1:1
This letter is from Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ. I am writing to God's chosen people who are living as foreigners in the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia.

(I think this is the Chosen that Hobbs refers to as the Elect as Peter is doing also. Actually Peter is talking to a part of the Elect that was exiled by the Romans)

1 Peter 1:2
who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

(Confirms the audience chosen by grace.)

1 Peter 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

(Confirms our new spiritual birth through the resurrection of Jesus.)

1 Peter 1:4
and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you,

(Confirms some type of imperishable inheritance that is kept for us in Heaven.)

1 Peter 1:5
And through your faith, God is protecting you by his power until you receive this salvation, which is ready to be revealed on the last day for all to see.

(Last day, last time, end of this era, End of the Age? This will be when the chosen or elected  mentioned in verse 1's salvation is revealed. "To God's elect, exiles scattered." "God's chosen people who are living as foreigners."
"To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus."
"To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout.")

1 Peter 1:6
In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials.

(The dispersed have suffered.)

1 Peter 1:7
so that the authenticity of your faith--more precious than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire--may result in praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

(The trials proved the dispersed had the faith to endure.)

(It looks like many things won't happen until Jesus appears to mean even salvation that was promised earlier. That salvation is only a hope and only a promise until the last day. Until the appearing of Jesus.)

1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.


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## gordon 2




----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> I 'm not seeing that way here in Romans 11. It's more like it's saying God is giving life to dying bodies.
> 
> Now when I read other scriptures, I see God raising sleeping in the ground bodies. Corinthians, I think. Even in those scriptures, I'm not sure it says God will reunite souls from Heaven back into those sleeping in the ground bodies.
> Maybe the souls go elsewhere or maybe they stay sleeping in the ground too.
> 
> Maybe I'm missing something. After all most Christians believe, they will be made alive spiritually before their mortal bodies die. That at that point their spiritually alive soul will go to Heaven. Then at the last trumpet, they will come back to the earth as a spirit with Jesus who'll come back as a body. In other words Jesus already has his resurrected body. We must return to the earth with him to get ours.
> 
> I would think this to be most confusing to people who believe in the Trinity. I've asked folks if they go to Heaven today, will they see Jesus as being separate and most say no. If that's the case then Jesus will have to separate himself from the Godhead for his return trip back to the earth in his "parked" human resurrected, and glorified corpse.
> I guess his man soul had fellowship with those souls in"reserve" while his spirit of the Spirit went back to the Godhead.
> Unless once God became Jesus incarnate, we can only see God as Jesus.



"Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body,...."

What form did Jesus have when He met Joshua before the battle of Jericho?
What form did He have when Stephen saw Him in heaven at the right hand of the Father?

Glorified.

John 17:5
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.


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## hobbs27

1John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

This from a man that saw Him ascend.


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## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> 1John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
> 
> This from a man that saw Him ascend.


 

 Is this not a focus on "we" not Him? We know that when.... we will be like Him....  (Why? Because...)we will see. And because now we see darkly someone said.

In other words we will have been changed because it is not plain to us now " yet what we will be."

We will be like Him in sensual and spiritual sympathy void of any portion of sin or  effects of wrath.

Or the way we see God today will not be the way we see God then not because we don't know what he will appear like, but because we don't know what our  spiritual appearance will be like emotionally, sensually and spiritually. Our understanding and experience will be unlike what we can know now.


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## hobbs27

I understand John to be saying, when they see Him,  they would be like Him,  but at that time they did not know what He was like, or how He would appear to them.


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## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> I understand John to be saying, when they see Him,  they would be like Him,  but at that time they did not know what He was like, or how He would appear to them.



As I have said, I don't understand it this way... They knew how Jesus had appeared to them before the resurrection and after the resurrection. It was in some ways different one from the other. So they could assume it would be different for them also... but not only physically different but different in the way they "saw".. as in the way of seeing.... and in the way to making their assessments of this reality and from it.

"it has not appeared as yet what we (they) will be."


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## Artfuldodger

If one dies and goes to Heaven before the 2nd coming, will they not see Jesus as he is? Must they also wait until Jesus appears on the earth to see Jesus as he is?

John 17:5
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 

Was Jesus in a glorified body before the world was?

This was one thing I was asking about the Trinity. How would one see Jesus if they died and went to Heaven today?


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## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> If one dies and goes to Heaven before the 2nd coming, will they not see Jesus as he is? Must they also wait until Jesus appears on the earth to see Jesus as he is?
> 
> John 17:5
> 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
> 
> Was Jesus in a glorified body before the world was?
> 
> This was one thing I was asking about the Trinity. How would one see Jesus if they died and went to Heaven today?



Well if I recall correctly in heaven the saints are said to have physical attributes... They say... that is they communicate. They hold bowls of prayers... etc... they can be numbered in the thousands of thousands... etc...
Some saints ( Prophets) are said to have been ascended to heaven bodily... ?

Good question... I'll have to search scripture...


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## Artfuldodger

I must say the line does get very crooked. Perhaps as Hobbs suggests, we are trying to connect a past event to a future event.

We are trying to make out how we will see Jesus as he is when he returns and yet see him in Heaven when we die before the return. All of this when maybe John meant when he returned in 70AD.
Both beliefs leave many questions unanswered.


----------



## Artfuldodger

John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.

I'm not sure how to connect this verse. Does it mean no man has gone to Heaven before the ascension of Jesus? Does it mean the saints haven't gone to Heaven yet?

I would think "no one" would include the souls of no one. It could mean, no one went when this verse was written but now their are man souls in Heaven after the ascension of Christ.

It could mean no man has gone to Heaven to retrieve direct knowledge and bring it back to the Earth and maybe it doesn't have anything to do with saints not going to Heaven. So there could be men in Heaven but none have returned to the Earth except Jesus.

I believe there are men in Heaven as spirits, I'm just not sure they are coming back to the earth.


----------



## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> I must say the line does get very crooked. Perhaps as Hobbs suggests, we are trying to connect a past event to a future event.
> 
> We are trying to make out how we will see Jesus as he is when he returns and yet see him in Heaven when we die before the return. All of this when maybe John meant when he returned in 70AD.
> Both beliefs leave many questions unanswered.



For moi there are few questions.

 Now we don't see Him ( God) as He is because we can't. And we can't because we are still afflicted, harassed and  troubled by a world of sin and sorry. 

Adam before the fall does not seem to be afflicted with this suffering, therefore  Adam ( and Eve) walked  and talked and had friendship with God and saw God as God was because they were not impaired. But after the fall they changed. God did not change. But they changed. The very first thing they did is to "cover' themselves with new strange things! And we still cover ourselves with strange things, even saints!

What the second coming will bring about is a riddance of our impairments so that we also like Adam and Eve before the fall will see, will meet with, will walk with God as He is. Zephaniah says God will sing to us!  We will be souls in the way we were ever meant to be and for the purpose(s) we were created.

 It is not God that will have changed, it is you and I and this change is a physical one at this point. Now Adam and Eve saw God as He was as souls, that is with physicality and spirituality. Why would it be different for us, especially that Jesus was physically raised from the dead and all the apostles claim that this is the way we are headed? What other hope is there? We have been at this point been born again spiritually,  we have been grafted on the tree of belief into the faith, some of us walk spiritually in the Holy Spirit, in Christ if we are Christians. So did the apostles! So what else are they waiting for Christ to return for it's own sake which would be the case if he had returned 70 ad? No.  They hoped for the resurrection of their mortal bodies to immortal ones due Christ's second coming along with the promised  New Jerusalem. And 70 ad just ain't cutting it in this department or their hope was in vain maybe? And Christianity is in fact a foolishness?


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## Artfuldodger

I think I can understand and see everything about mortal bodies to immortal ones on the earth in the New Jerusalem. I can see and understand it all except going to Heaven before then. That's where it gets cloudy. Everything scriptural reads like nothing happens until Jesus comes.
Now if we waited somewhere other than Heaven, then it makes sense. Seeing Jesus before then doesn't. It makes everything go from life to death to spiritual life in Heaven and then back to the earth for a new physical life in a glorified body.

This back and forth is the cloudy part. Going from physical to spiritual only to return to some physical form. 

Then again, Jesus went from Spiritual to physical, back to Spiritual, and once again will come back physical. Then maybe back once more to Spiritual.


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## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> I think I can understand and see everything about mortal bodies to immortal ones on the earth in the New Jerusalem. I can see and understand it all except going to Heaven before then. That's where it gets cloudy. Everything scriptural reads like nothing happens until Jesus comes.
> Now if we waited somewhere other than Heaven, then it makes sense. Seeing Jesus before then doesn't. It makes everything go from life to death to spiritual life in Heaven and then back to the earth for a new physical life in a glorified body.
> 
> This back and forth is the cloudy part. Going from physical to spiritual only to return to some physical form.
> 
> Then again, Jesus went from Spiritual to physical, back to Spiritual, and once again will come back physical. Then maybe back once more to Spiritual.



It's the mirror art, the mirror. It is still cloudy. My hope is that the second coming will polish out the hubbles from it-- if we need a mirror at all.


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## hobbs27

Max King once said, " You can drive a horse to water but you can't make him drink, especially if it's muddied."

The water of life is freely given but there's a few things out there today that's muddying up the Gospel.


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## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> I think I can understand and see everything about mortal bodies to immortal ones on the earth in the New Jerusalem. I can see and understand it all except going to Heaven before then. That's where it gets cloudy. Everything scriptural reads like nothing happens until Jesus comes.
> Now if we waited somewhere other than Heaven, then it makes sense. Seeing Jesus before then doesn't. It makes everything go from life to death to spiritual life in Heaven and then back to the earth for a new physical life in a glorified body.
> 
> This back and forth is the cloudy part. Going from physical to spiritual only to return to some physical form.
> 
> Then again, Jesus went from Spiritual to physical, back to Spiritual, and once again will come back physical. Then maybe back once more to Spiritual.



Is there anything in the scripture that you fellas can think of that would contradict this? :

I have this theory that ,immediately upon death, we are face to face with God in our glorified body. Time is no more, so everything that was bound by time is over and done with. We see him, with these eyes(only glorified now). And so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If I'm off-base in any way, please, set me straight.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Is there anything in the scripture that you fellas can think of that would contradict this? :
> 
> I have this theory that ,immediately upon death, we are face to face with God in our glorified body. Time is no more, so everything that was bound by time is over and done with. We see him, with these eyes(only glorified now). And so shall we ever be with the Lord.
> 
> If I'm off-base in any way, please, set me straight.



 We Agree!  Only...these eyes are not glorified.


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> Is there anything in the scripture that you fellas can think of that would contradict this? :
> 
> I have this theory that ,immediately upon death, we are face to face with God in our glorified body. Time is no more, so everything that was bound by time is over and done with. We see him, with these eyes(only glorified now). And so shall we ever be with the Lord.
> 
> If I'm off-base in any way, please, set me straight.



That would explain a lot. Judgement day not being a future day. Well really it is but I see what you are saying. Everything future will become past once we die as individuals. We would just zoom past the future in a beyond time way to the end. We would face judgement when we die as individuals. We would see Jesus as he is. I'll do anything not to have to come back to the earth.


----------



## hobbs27

Ecc. 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


----------



## gordon 2

welderguy said:


> Is there anything in the scripture that you fellas can think of that would contradict this? :
> 
> I have this theory that ,immediately upon death, we are face to face with God in our glorified body. Time is no more, so everything that was bound by time is over and done with. We see him, with these eyes(only glorified now). And so shall we ever be with the Lord.
> 
> If I'm off-base in any way, please, set me straight.



I have no scripture at present.

 But to my mind time is still present in our current heaven according to my memory of accounts of it in scripture.... That is time is sensible to the saints there  as we know time. And that there although their worship is exceedingly happy, they are not 100% happy... as they beg and petition seeing yet  need for charity where there might be none ?

 But scripture says that there will be a new heaven and perhaps at this one our time will be no more, nor our present heaven because...

does not scripture read that a new heaven and a new earth will come to be and that in it a New Jerusalem and the light there with be Him? Definitely this new heaven seems to be timeless as there will be no night or perhaps other than a day or some other object we  now account for night and day as a source of time measurement.


I am seeking scripture... regards the face of God.

In any case it occurs to me that what we call natural is not natural at all, that is the world we live in now, and that the heaven we know now is heaven  supernatural... that is, still bound to the our preoccupations. But our natural home is to the new heaven that will come down to a new earth for the Second Coming.

But perhaps you recall this:


  Revelations 7 ; 13 And now one of the elders turned to me, and asked, Who are they, and whence do they come, these who are robed in white? 14My Lord, said I, thou canst tell me. These, he said, have come here out of the great affliction; they have washed their robes white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 And now they stand before God’s throne, serving him day and night in his temple; the presence of him who sits on the throne shall overshadow them. 16 They will not be hungry or thirsty any more; no sun, no noonday heat, shall fall across their path. 17 The Lamb, who dwells where the throne is, will be their shepherd, leading them out to the springs whose water is life; and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.

And this would indicate that angels from heaven appear at the last harvest. And to my knowledge this would be before the new heaven.


  Revelations  14 : 14Then, in my vision, a white cloud appeared; and on this cloud sat one who seemed like a son of man, with a crown of gold on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 And now, from the temple, came another angel, crying out to him who sat on the cloud, Put in thy sickle, and reap; the crop of earth is dry, and the time has come to reap it. 16 So he who sat on the cloud put in his sickle, and earth’s harvest was reaped. 17 Then another angel came from the heavenly temple; he too had a sharp sickle. 18 And from the altar came another angel, the same that had power over the fire on it,[3] and cried aloud to the angel with the sharp sickle, Put in thy sharp sickle, and gather the grapes from earth’s vineyard; its clusters are ripe.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Ecc. 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.



What are some other verses that point to this departure from our bodies and go to the Lord in spirit form?
I was thinking of:

2 Corinthians 5:6-8
So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord.7For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Philippians 1:20-23
20 I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have complete boldness, so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. 21For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain.22But if I go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. So what shall I choose? I do not know.   23 I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed.

2 Timothy 4:6
For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near.

Psalm 49:15
But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.


It sounds like a spiritual departure to me.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Getting back to Welderguy's thoughts, I can see this except for the "already being in a resurrected body part." When we die we are no longer held in time because we are then in God's spiritual world. 

It would appear that we'd have to re-enter time if resurrected physically. We'd have to leave God's spiritual world with Jesus and return to the earth. I think at that departure time would start back again for us.


----------



## Artfuldodger

1 Thessalonians 4:13
 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning 
them which are asleep, [dead] that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 
4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 
4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent[precede] them which are asleep. [dead] 
4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 
4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 
4:18
Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 

This makes it sound like one has to wait in the ground before he can ever  be with the Lord.


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## hobbs27

Art... They slept but were not dead.  Those were the Christian brothers of the Thessalonians that had received eternal life before His coming.  They slept in the grave awaiting. 

In a scenario that Jesus did not keep His word,  and has not come... Then they and all Christians are still sleeping in the grave. Physically dead,  spiritually alive.


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> Art... They slept but were not dead.  Those were the Christian brothers of the Thessalonians that had received eternal life before His coming.  They slept in the grave awaiting.
> 
> In a scenario that Jesus did not keep His word,  and has not come... Then they and all Christians are still sleeping in the grave. Physically dead,  spiritually alive.



So they were not dead but their bodies had suffered decay. Where did they go to sleep that they were not dead in the spirit or sleeping souls? 

The heaven that Jesus prepared for them... is it the same one said the " new heaven" of the " last time"?


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## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> Max King once said, " You can drive a horse to water but you can't make him drink, especially if it's muddied."
> 
> The water of life is freely given but there's a few things out there today that's muddying up the Gospel.




Your kidding right?


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Ecc. 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.



In my theory, the dead physical body is still bound by time, thus it decays in the grave. But the spirit, which goes immediately into eternity(no time), is reunited so fast(in the twinkling of an eye) with a changed body, "fashioned like unto His glorious body"...in the air.

It will all happen in an instant, because of the timelessness.

2 Cor. 5:8-10

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

I don't read this chapter as saying we will be without a body, but rather a different form of a body ("clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:")


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## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> So they were not dead but their bodies had suffered decay. Where did they go to sleep that they were not dead in the spirit or sleeping souls?
> 
> The heaven that Jesus prepared for them... is it the same one said the " new heaven" of the " last time"?




The wages of sin is death.  With the blood of Christ covering that sin they could not know death. 

The grave...Sheol/ Hades was only necessary for those that died with the charges of sin still against them.  There was no blood to cover them. They were still spiritually dead,  unable to be in the presence of God, because of this imputed sin. 

 Those that physically died in Christ were said to be sleeping... They were awaiting His coming that they be present at the wedding and joined together with the living in Spirit as one body.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> I don't read this chapter as saying we will be without a body, but rather a different form of a body ("clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:")



I can accept per scripture a different form of body. I cannot accept per scripture that we will be in this physical,  fleshly,  earthly body.


----------



## gordon 2

welderguy said:


> In my theory, the dead physical body is still bound by time, thus it decays in the grave. But the spirit, which goes immediately into eternity(no time), is reunited so fast(in the twinkling of an eye) with a changed body, "fashioned like unto His glorious body"...in the air.
> 
> It will all happen in an instant, because of the timelessness.
> 
> 2 Cor. 5:8-10
> 
> 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
> 
> 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
> 
> 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
> 
> I don't read this chapter as saying we will be without a body, but rather a different form of a body ("clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:")



You have many sources for  ideas for your "theory". They are all interesting.  My focus now goes to "clothed upon with our house which is from heaven"  said in opposition to the clothes of our present house right now... and that it is perhaps a way of saying in heaven, in paradise, souls move on more fully in the heavenly  not being bound to the earth where they move on in the heavenly only partially. 

I think that the "different form of body" in heaven here might be the reality of the soul simply and not a different kind of body. This begs the observation that the soul is eternal if my view is correct, since it is clothed by both the defective materials of a fallen life and a heavenly life. That is to say death does not coffin the soul to decay. 

But is the soul alone absent from the body a resurrected body, a glorified body? Perhaps it can be. In the present heaven it is released from the corruptions of the flesh at least. But is this a resurrection?

If the soul is subjected to the judgement seat for things done in the body on earth then it must not be a glorified and resurrected entity of itself due simply for being absent from the body?  But I'm not sure this is what Paul is meaning. But if it is the case that it is not a glorified body in heaven since it is there in need of judgement, then surely it begs a body resurrection of that which was corrupted to die to that which would rise up to life. And since the soul is both living on earth and in heaven, the resurrection must be of the earthly body and not the soul's? Maybe.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> I can accept per scripture a different form of body. I cannot accept per scripture that we will be in this physical,  fleshly,  earthly body.



I believe it will be this body that has been changed instantaneously (metamorphed) into a glorified sinless, incorruptible body.


----------



## welderguy

gordon 2 said:


> You have many sources for  ideas for your "theory". They are all interesting.  My focus now goes to "clothed upon with our house which is from heaven"  said in opposition to the clothes of our present house right now... and that it is perhaps a way of saying in heaven, in paradise, souls move on more fully in the heavenly  not being bound to the earth where they move on in the heavenly only partially.
> 
> I think that the "different form of body" in heaven here might be the reality of the soul simply and not a different kind of body. This begs the observation that the soul is eternal if my view is correct, since it is clothed by both the defective materials of a fallen life and a heavenly life. That is to say death does not coffin the soul to decay.
> 
> But is the soul alone absent from the body a resurrected body, a glorified body? Perhaps it can be. In the present heaven it is released from the corruptions of the flesh at least. But is this a resurrection?
> 
> If the soul is subjected to the judgement seat for things done in the body on earth then it must not be a glorified and resurrected entity of itself due simply for being absent from the body?  But I'm not sure this is what Paul is meaning. But if it is the case that it is not a glorified body in heaven since it is there in need of judgement, then surely it begs a body resurrection of that which was corrupted to die to that which would rise up to life. And since the soul is both living on earth and in heaven, the resurrection must be of the earthly body and not the soul's? Maybe.



So are you saying our judgement is only while on this earth in this present life? In this corruptible body?
Not disagreeing, just thinking.


----------



## gordon 2

welderguy said:


> So are you saying our judgement is only while on this earth in this present life? In this corruptible body?
> Not disagreeing, just thinking.




No I'm not in this case. Paul says that a judgement comes post physical death at the judgement seat of Christ. However, don't know that judgment is the correct term in this other case, but when we are given to Christ by the Father for his grace, we somehow are "judged" as remnant sons of God. Sorta kinda....  So there is a definite judgement in heaven according to Paul, but I seem to seek another one, one final one at the last which will provide for new beginnings. The saints in heaven will already have been judged at this one perhaps but I think scripture indicates that they will be in attendance.
--------------------
Also thinking myself--- about this:

2 In My Father’s house are many mansions;[a] if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Do you think that the mansion(s) folk will meet up at the last judgement, the last time--that is be in attendance? Or will they pretty much be sedentary to their heavenly estates claiming for themselves to be above the hubbub?


----------



## welderguy

gordon 2 said:


> No I'm not in this case. Paul says that a judgement comes post physical death at the judgement seat of Christ. However, don't know that judgment is the correct term in this other case, but when we are given to Christ by the Father for his grace, we somehow are "judged" as remnant sons of God. Sorta kinda....  So there is a definite judgement in heaven according to Paul, but I seem to seek another one, one final one at the last which will provide for new beginnings. The saints in heaven will already have been judged at this one perhaps but I think scripture indicates that they will be in attendance.
> --------------------
> Also thinking myself--- about this:
> 
> 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions;[a] if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
> 
> Do you think that the mansion(s) folk will meet up at the last judgement, the last time--that is be in attendance? Or will they pretty much be sedentary to their heavenly estates claiming for themselves to be above the hubbub?



I don't know much about those mansions. I heard one preacher say he thought it referred to His(Father's) church, but I'm not sure I understand it that way.
But I do believe we will all be together as one, and nothing will seem bothersome to us.


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## hobbs27

Thanks for this study on Zephaniah Gordon.  There's been a couple of questions on this I was unable to answer before.  Now I have it,  and it's like another little mystery solved.  A great blessing from God through a faithful servant.


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> Thanks for this study on Zephaniah Gordon.  There's been a couple of questions on this I was unable to answer before.  Now I have it,  and it's like another little mystery solved.  A great blessing from God through a faithful servant.



Hum! So your six steps to becoming a Quaker and two steps from recanting your heresies?

Lets keep this tread going just incase "the malicious one"  regains your coattails.... 



Or your saying something quite different?

PS. Are you saying you had "doubts" about your stand in your now former life? That in it you were never completely shored up? Hum. You seemed such confidence. 

Regards the blessing through a faithful servant. If he/she shored up your beliefs in preterism may my name be left out of it.


----------



## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> Hum! So your six steps to becoming a Quaker and two steps from recanting your heresies?
> 
> Lets keep this tread going just incase "the malicious one"  regains your coattails....
> 
> 
> 
> Or your saying something quite different?
> 
> PS. Are you saying you had "doubts" about your stand in your now former life? That in it you were never completely shored up? Hum. You seemed such confidence.
> 
> Regards the blessing through a faithful servant. If he/she shored up your beliefs in preterism may my name be left out of it.



Let's just say there was a timing issue I could not answer before and because of you bringing up this thread I now have answers for,  and am actively using to refute a group of JWs in my quest to bring them to the waters. 

 Thank you.


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> Let's just say there was a timing issue I could not answer before and because of you bringing up this thread I now have answers for,  and am actively using to refute a group of JWs in my quest to bring them to the waters.
> 
> Thank you.



Good luck with that. They have been specifically told not to listen to you... however... so ...yes good luck.
 The JW believe in a sleep... until the judgement. 

Anyway... please I am jesting with emoticons like this  ( think that is what they are called...)... don't get serious and somber on me...other than being honest and yourself.

I don't mean to be mean.


----------



## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> Good luck with that. They have been specifically told not to listen to you... however... so ...yes good luck.
> The JW believe in a sleep... until the judgement.
> 
> Anyway... please I am jesting with emoticons like this  ( think that is what they are called...)... don't get serious and somber on me...other than being honest and yourself.
> 
> I don't mean to be mean.



I know they are very well trained,  but they are taught their teaching is the truth,  therefore it is the only truth. It rocks their world when you prove them wrong. 


About the old covenant dead making it to heaven before Christ appears.  Have we considered this in Hebrews 9? 
 It seems to be saying there was no way to heaven in the temple age.

6 Now when these things had been thus prepared, the priests always went into the first part of the tabernacle, performing the services. 7 But into the second part the high priest went alone once a year, not without blood, which he offered for himself and for the people’s sins committed in ignorance; 8 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing.


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> I know they are very well trained,  but they are taught their teaching is the truth,  therefore it is the only truth. It rocks their world when you prove them wrong.
> 
> 
> About the old covenant dead making it to heaven before Christ appears.  Have we considered this in Hebrews 9?
> It seems to be saying there was no way to heaven in the temple age.
> 
> 6 Now when these things had been thus prepared, the priests always went into the first part of the tabernacle, performing the services. 7 But into the second part the high priest went alone once a year, not without blood, which he offered for himself and for the people’s sins committed in ignorance; 8 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing.



This is very interesting.


So you are saying that "the way into the Holiest of All"  was a synonymn for Heaven? I understand this a meaning access to God-Christ perhaps... and particularly the tabernacle was no longer standing when its veil was rent, being no longer a tabernacle, according to the first footnote I find on it...?


----------



## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> This is very interesting.
> 
> 
> So you are saying that "the way into the Holiest of All"  was a synonymn for Heaven? I understand this a meaning access to God-Christ perhaps... and particularly the tabernacle was no longer standing when its veil was rent, being no longer a tabernacle, according to the first footnote I find on it...?



I do believe the Holiest of all was a representation of heaven. 

 Do you have more on that footnote of the renting of the veil?


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> I do believe the Holiest of all was a representation of heaven.
> 
> Do you have more on that footnote of the renting of the veil?




It is from a New Jerusalem bible.  It reads:



_This ceremonial has a spiritual significance ; in the ancient Alliance the people did not have access to God. In the new Alliance, the Savior will be the way to the Father, john 14;6 and Heb 10:19, The abrogation of the ancient cult will be symbolized by the rupture of the Temple veil at the time of the death of Jesus._(My translation from the french.)

So what the footnoteperson is saying here is (in my view) in the ancient cult only priests had access to the Holiest of All ( and perhaps only once a yr at that) and not the people, but in the new covenant the Father will/is  accessible to all through Jesus.


----------



## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> It is from a New Jerusalem bible.  It reads:
> 
> 
> 
> _This ceremonial has a spiritual significance ; in the ancient Alliance the people did not have access to God. In the new Alliance, the Savior will be the way to the Father, john 14;6 and Heb 10:19, The abrogation of the ancient cult will be symbolized by the rupture of the Temple veil at the time of the death of Jesus._(My translation from the french.)
> 
> So what the footnoteperson is saying here is (in my view) in the ancient cult only priests had access to the Holiest of All ( and perhaps only once a yr at that) and not the people, but in the new covenant the Father will/is be accessible to all through Jesus.



just like Adam had access before sin entered the world.
 Now the blood of Christ covers mans sin,  giving man access to God.


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> just like Adam had access before sin entered the world.
> Now the blood of Christ covers mans sin,  giving man access to God.




No not like Adam. Adam was face to face with God. He walked with God and spoke with God and God spoke to him. The relationship was one of complete intimacy. 

Although Christ has saved us from the world,  we still live in it which interrupts our communion with God . So we wait, we crave, yet even now more that we are in Christ, for that face to face, intimate union... which was Adam's.

Although sins are covered, the troubling effects of sin  are still present in our existence including the capacity to spur on more sin and troubles.


----------



## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> No not like Adam. Adam was face to face with God. He walked with God and spoke with God and God spoke to him. The relationship was one of complete intimacy.
> 
> Although Christ has saved us from the world,  we still live in it which interrupts our communion with God . So we wait, we crave, yet even now more that we are in Christ, for that face to face, intimate union... which was Adam's.
> 
> Although sins are covered, the troubling effects of sin  are still present in our existence including the capacity to spur on more sin and troubles.




We will just have to agree to disagree friend.


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> We will just have to agree to disagree friend.



Exactly what do we disagree with agreement on? I'm left with questions on it, like: So what you are saying (question mark) ?... with the hopes of understanding... what you are saying.

Tell me where are you coming from with your understanding? How did you acquire?

For example I listened to a message last night from a 7th day Adventist pastor who detailed what Adventists believed and why, and explaining why they practiced and  talked (declare), and studied and preached with the outlook  they have?

What I found interesting was that the pastor's conviction that the Adventist were correct in their beliefs was after reading the book The Great Controversy which spurred on her involvement in methodical and time consuming scripture studies and that brand of Christianity to the point of becoming a preacher to it and from it...a firebrand for it of it.

What was your pivot towards the views you and many others declare today? 

Are you saying that Adam and Eve could have suffered infection from insect bits in Paradise? And sin was not the origin of the gnat's bite, not the welt, not the itch and no ill word issued in frustration? What?

PS. What I found interesting with the preacher I listened to was that the great deceiver alleged to be indicated in scripture and using the name of the  Lord was  deemed to be a specific denomination which the majority of Christians cleave to, or Christian Orthodoxy in general and that which, in opposition, was not acting with deceit and using the name of the Lord was american nationalism and the manifest destiny of the American republic.??? But I digress...


----------



## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> Exactly what do we disagree with agreement on? I'm left with questions on it, like: So what you are saying (question mark) ?... with the hopes of understanding... what you are saying.
> 
> Tell me where are you coming from with your understanding? How did you acquire?
> 
> For example I listened to a message last night from a 7th day Adventist pastor who detailed what Adventists believed and why, and explaining why they practiced and  talked (declare), and studied and preached with the outlook  they have?
> 
> What I found interesting was that the pastor's conviction that the Adventist were correct in their beliefs was after reading the book The Great Controversy which spurred on her involvement in methodical and time consuming scripture studies and that brand of Christianity to the point of becoming a preacher to it and from it...a firebrand for it of it.
> 
> What was your pivot towards the views you and many others declare today?
> 
> Are you saying that Adam and Eve could have suffered infection from insect bits in Paradise? And sin was not the origin of the gnat's bite, not the welt, not the itch and no ill word issued in frustration? What?
> 
> PS. What I found interesting with the preacher I listened to was that the great deceiver alleged to be indicated in scripture and using the name of the  Lord was  deemed to be a specific denomination which the majority of Christians cleave to, or Christian Orthodoxy in general and that which, in opposition, was not acting with deceit and using the name of the Lord was american nationalism and the manifest destiny of the American republic.??? But I digress...




 On your PS. I do not believe that way,  but you might be surprised to know some here that do. 

Let me make it way way over simplified, on what I see.  
 Adam was brought into covenant with God and lived in union with God.  Sin entered,  God cast Adam out of the Garden... This is the state of man you think still exists... Outside of union with God because of sin.... But I see Jesus coming, making sacrifice that all men may have their sin forgiven... IE covered. 
 With no sin,  man can once again be in Union with God,  we are now back in the garden,  but the unbelievers are on the outside... Rev. 22 is our present state.


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> On your PS. I do not believe that way,  but you might be surprised to know some here that do.
> 
> Let me make it way way over simplified, on what I see.
> Adam was brought into covenant with God and lived in union with God.  Sin entered,  God cast Adam out of the Garden... This is the state of man you think still exists... Outside of union with God because of sin.... But I see Jesus coming, making sacrifice that all men may have their sin forgiven... IE covered.
> With no sin,  man can once again be in Union with God,  we are now back in the garden,  but the unbelievers are on the outside... Rev. 22 is our present state.



 You know a friend of mind pointed out that in Christianity as new group beliefs come about, after reading scripture with fervor and that they might interpret erroneously so that  some  ancient heresies come up again and that it is somewhat this way with almost all "new insight" groups that run against orthodoxy. What the test is that there might be  a problem with the new movement or the new belief, as opposed to a movement that might not be a problem,  is that an old heresy comes up with the  problematic group, and becomes a part of it.

What do you think of this? Does it ring some truth in your experience?


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## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> You know a friend of mind pointed out that in Christianity as new group beliefs come about, after reading scripture with fervor and that they might interpret erroneously so that  some  ancient heresies come up again and that it is somewhat this way with almost all "new insight" groups that run against orthodoxy. What the test is that there might be  a problem with the new movement or the new belief, as opposed to a movement that might not be a problem,  is that an old heresy comes up with the  problematic group, and becomes a part of it.
> 
> What do you think of this? Does it ring some truth in your experience?




Who was ever orthodox?.  Peter and Paul I believe taught different denominations... What you say?


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## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> Who was ever orthodox?.  Peter and Paul I believe taught different denominations... What you say?




Well not according to my understanding of the usual definition. Both basically thought the same to different communities I thought. Never- the- less what do you think of the idea that new belief systems outside of the  of orthodoxy ( usual mainstream)  do not " discover anything new" if they well up old heresy. Have you seen this somewhere in christian history?


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## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> Well not according to my understanding of the usual definition. Both basically thought the same to different communities I thought. Never- the- less what do you think of the idea that new belief systems outside of the  of orthodoxy ( usual mainstream)  do not " discover anything new" if they well up old heresy. Have you seen this somewhere in christian history?



There's nothing new under the sun... With that said I am sola scriptura. I am somewhat skeptical of men,  especially men that want stature in any organization.


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## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> There's nothing new under the sun... With that said I am sola scriptura. I am somewhat skeptical of men,  especially men that want stature in any organization.



 Well I respect and envy your point  view. But I don't get that you are answering my questions. And not that you have to, but do I get that you are avoiding answering...???


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## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> Well I respect and envy your point  view. But I don't get that you are answering my questions. And not that you have to, but do I get that you are avoiding answering...???



Gordon.  I don't think anyone can rightfully call themselves orthodox unless they have never changed their beliefs from the end of the Old covenant. 

 What is its purpose?  To boast of tradition?  How can one boast of tradition if they no longer completely reflect what they once were? 

It is of no use in my mind.  Jesus is Lord,  we are brothers.  Amen?


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## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> Gordon.  I don't think anyone can rightfully call themselves orthodox unless they have never changed their beliefs from the end of the Old covenant.
> 
> What is its purpose?  To boast of tradition?  ct what they once were? How can one boast of tradition if they no longer completely refle
> 
> It is of no use in my mind.  Jesus is Lord,  we are brothers.  Amen?




Ok I see that the tradition you talk about is perhaps a the tradition of doctrine. What I meant by orthodoxy  was agreement on what scripture meant by church fathers.  It has no boast to it. 

For example: 



In the creed:

..............

He will come again
to judge the living and the dead.

and

...............
the resurrection of the body,

...............

 This I would say this is orthodox belief, and most anything contrary is heresy.


 So in this case orthodoxy has changed little if any since the apostles.

 I'm not sure I understand what you mean by:  "How can one boast of tradition if they no longer completely reflect what they once were? " The creeds are basically the same universally since the apostles sat in council due to individual or groups with ( heresies) or ideas that just were not sound according to scripture and experience. Heresies spurred on the creeds.

 Brothers yes. Always.  Praises to the Lord.


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## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> Ok I see that the tradition you talk about is perhaps a the tradition of doctrine. What I meant by orthodoxy  was agreement on what scripture meant by church fathers.  It has no boast to it.
> 
> For example:
> 
> 
> 
> In the creed:
> 
> ..............
> 
> He will come again
> to judge the living and the dead.
> 
> and
> 
> ...............
> the resurrection of the body,
> 
> ...............
> 
> This I would say this is orthodox belief, and most anything contrary is heresy.
> 
> 
> So in this case orthodoxy has changed little if any since the apostles.
> 
> I'm not sure I understand what you mean by:  "How can one boast of tradition if they no longer completely reflect what they once were? " The creeds are basically the same universally since the apostles sat in council due to individual or groups with ( heresies) or ideas that just were not sound according to scripture and experience. Heresies spurred on the creeds.
> 
> Brothers yes. Always.  Praises to the Lord.



I believe He came again and I believe in a resurrection.. I'm orthodox... For whatever that's worth..


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## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> I believe He came again and I believe in a resurrection.. I'm orthodox... For whatever that's worth..



Well it is worth that your yes is yes and you no is no.


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## gordon 2

As for myself I wrestle yet and:

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.


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## hobbs27

St. Augustine "The new is in the old concealed; the old is in the new revealed.” 

Orthodoxy then.


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