# Say you have a loved one die



## Six million dollar ham (Mar 11, 2011)

We'll just say it's your mother that's been living with you for the last few years, declining all the while.  Once it happens, you'll likely have a deluge of support and well-wishes.  Suppose those people can either do something to physically help you (like bring a pot of soup, cut your grass, babysit for the weekend, etc) or they can tell you they're praying for you.

The rule here is they can not do both.  If they help out somehow, they can't pray for you or the departed.  If they pray to God over the death, they can't help assist you.

Which would you choose, the help or the prayers?


----------



## CAL (Mar 11, 2011)

Sorta curious,why can't people do all they want to?What is the reason for the selection of what someone can do?


Give me the Prayers over anything else!


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Mar 11, 2011)

CAL said:


> Sorta curious,why can't people do all they want to?What is the reason for the selection of what someone can do?



Because I'm curious as to which is seen as more beneficial.


----------



## Huntinfool (Mar 11, 2011)

Praying for the deceased does absolutely no good.  Praying for comfort for the remaining might be helpful.  

The Bible tells us to rejoice with those who rejoice and mourn with those who mourn.

I would prefer they mourn with me and do what they can (assuming they can only do one...which is silly) to help me.  My deceased loved one does not need the prayers.

I would love them to do both.  But if they can only do one, I would prefer they follow the biblical mandate to mourn with me.


----------



## Ronnie T (Mar 11, 2011)

Without the actions of my feet and hands, my prayer will mean little.
You need my personal (God enriched) help.  That's what you'll get.
But I got to pray also.  Not for your mother, but for you and all the family.


----------



## Dead Eye Eddy (Mar 11, 2011)

The good cooks can cook for me.  The bad cooks can pray for me.  I'm picky about my grass, so I'll do that myself.


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Mar 11, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Praying for the deceased does absolutely no good.  Praying for comfort for the remaining might be helpful.


Helpful for whom?



Huntinfool said:


> I would prefer they mourn with me and do what they can (assuming they can only do one...which is silly) to help me.  My deceased loved one does not need the prayers.
> 
> I would love them to do both.  But if they can only do one, I would prefer they follow the biblical mandate to mourn with me.



Physically assist in some way or pray for you....these are the 2 options.


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Mar 11, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Without the actions of my feet and hands, my prayer will mean little.
> You need my personal (God enriched) help.  That's what you'll get.
> But I got to pray also.  Not for your mother, but for you and all the family.



What's your answer?


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Mar 11, 2011)

Dead Eye Eddy said:


> The good cooks can cook for me.  The bad cooks can pray for me.  I'm picky about my grass, so I'll do that myself.



So Dead Eye Eddy, what's your answer?


----------



## Randy (Mar 11, 2011)

The question was posed to make you choose as normally Christians do not have to.  This is a trick question to make christians choose between God and material things.

For me I will take the prayers.  God ALWAYS provides the rest.


----------



## thedeacon (Mar 11, 2011)

Ridicules, is the only thing I can think to say.

Its amazing what people will do to trick up someone.

As for demanding an answer to your question, as you have in more than one place on this post?

It doesn't matter to you which answer I would pick.

You would make either one wrong. I sense that you  don't 
want real answers but are looking for more questions
that can't be answered to your satisfaction.

I refuse to pick between two things that I would do as
 a Christian without thought.

In the last few months I have had people in my home
while they were getting cancer in the Mayo clinic. I have
fed, housed and prayed for each one.

How dare you to want me to pick one of two deeds I would do
or except for or from someone else.

You offend me.


----------



## Gaducker (Mar 11, 2011)

In my neck of the woods the church family is gona do both for you without even askin. So the way I see it I dont have to make that call.


----------



## stringmusic (Mar 11, 2011)

Dead Eye Eddy said:


> The good cooks can cook for me.  The bad cooks can pray for me.  I'm picky about my grass, so I'll do that myself.


----------



## stringmusic (Mar 11, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> We'll just say it's your mother that's been living with you for the last few years, declining all the while.  Once it happens, you'll likely have a deluge of support and well-wishes.  Suppose those people can either do something to physically help you (like bring a pot of soup, cut your grass, babysit for the weekend, etc) or they can tell you they're praying for you.
> 
> The rule here is they can not do both.  If they help out somehow, they can't pray for you or the departed.  If they pray to God over the death, they can't help assist you.
> 
> Which would you choose, the help or the prayers?


Here is a question where you do have to decide, do you want to live your life with or without God, and are you willing to accept the end results of your decisions?


----------



## DS7418 (Mar 11, 2011)

The OP said,, quote:
 Suppose those people can either do something to physically help you (like bring a pot of soup, cut your grass, babysit for the weekend, etc) or they can tell you they're praying for you.

The rule here is they can not do both. 

Thats a simple question and all you folks are trying to complicate it,, or turn it into something its not.
 My answer is give me the physical stuff. A simple honest answer.


----------



## Ronnie T (Mar 11, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> What's your answer?



Physically help.


----------



## dawg2 (Mar 11, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> We'll just say it's your mother that's been living with you for the last few years, declining all the while.  Once it happens, you'll likely have a deluge of support and well-wishes.  Suppose those people can either do something to physically help you (like bring a pot of soup, cut your grass, babysit for the weekend, etc) or they can tell you they're praying for you.
> 
> The rule here is they can not do both.  If they help out somehow, they can't pray for you or the departed.  If they pray to God over the death, they can't help assist you.
> 
> Which would you choose, the help or the prayers?


The physical help is an answer to those prayers.


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Mar 11, 2011)

Gaducker said:


> In my neck of the woods the church family is gona do both for you without even askin. So the way I see it I dont have to make that call.



So what is your answer?


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Mar 11, 2011)

DS7418 said:


> Thats a simple question and all you folks are trying to complicate it,, or turn it into something its not.
> My answer is give me the physical stuff. A simple honest answer.



Thank you.


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Mar 11, 2011)

dawg2 said:


> The physical help is an answer to those prayers.



Not really, because in the presence of that actual help the prayers don't exist.

By the way, what's your answer?


----------



## dawg2 (Mar 11, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Not really, because in the presence of that actual help the prayers don't exist.By the way, what's your answer?



Since it is hypothetical, and we are assuming no "god" then obvioulsy physical help.  Kind of like asking would you rather have a million dollars in pennies or in 20's but pick only one.  They are both nice to have.


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Mar 11, 2011)

stringmusic said:


>



I agree it was pretty funny.


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Mar 11, 2011)

Randy said:


> This is a trick question to make christians choose between God and material things.
> 
> For me I will take the prayers.  God ALWAYS provides the rest.



Not really.  I was just curious.  

Oh and thanks for the answer.


----------



## crackerdave (Mar 11, 2011)

thedeacon said:


> Ridicules, is the only thing I can think to say.
> 
> Its amazing what people will do to trick up someone.
> 
> ...



That was the intent. As you said: "Never underestimate the power of Satan!"


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Mar 11, 2011)

thedeacon said:


> Ridicules, is the only thing I can think to say.
> 
> Its amazing what people will do to trick up someone.
> 
> ...



Fascinating take there but I respectfully ask that you stick to the topic at hand.


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Mar 11, 2011)

crackerdave said:


> That was the intent. As you said: "Never underestimate the power of Satan!"



What is your answer, crackerdave, the prayers or the assistance?


----------



## johnnylightnin (Mar 11, 2011)

In no realm of reality are those the options.  It's a silly false dichotomy.  Anyone who would present those as the options is worthy of sharing the Gospel with because they clearly don't "get it".


----------



## rjcruiser (Mar 11, 2011)

Gaducker said:


> In my neck of the woods the church family is gona do both for you without even askin. So the way I see it I dont have to make that call.



That's what my church does as well.  Actually, just had a member's dad die recently.  My family did both.



My answer would be both.  I'd choose both.


----------



## jmar28 (Mar 11, 2011)

When my brother died, I had people calling me and telling me they were praying for me. I was very thankful for all the prayers....The only way to heal over a death is time. 

I choose the physical things, food, help around the house etc...

It's just easier for folks to say they will pray for you.


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Mar 11, 2011)

johnnylightnin said:


> In no realm of reality are those the options.  It's a silly false dichotomy.  Anyone who would present those as the options is worthy of sharing the Gospel with because they clearly don't "get it".



Hypothetical situation. Simple.


----------



## Randy (Mar 11, 2011)

johnnylightnin said:


> In no realm of reality are those the options.  It's a silly false dichotomy.


I suggest you are wrong.  If you are like Sixmil and you don't believe in God the prayers would be useless and therefore only the material presents would matter, at least in the short term.


----------



## johnnylightnin (Mar 11, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Hypothetical situation. Simple.



And as helpful as asking whether or not you'd like a miniature unicorn or a miniature centaur as a pocket pet if you had to choose between the two.


----------



## johnnylightnin (Mar 11, 2011)

Randy said:


> I suggest you are wrong.



I'm not wrong that the dichotomy is false.  That has nothing to do with what SixMil would prefer.


----------



## jmar28 (Mar 11, 2011)

Randy said:


> I suggest you are wrong.  If you are like Sixmil and you don't believe in God the prayers would be useless and therefore only the material presents would matter, at least in the short term.



I believe in God and I would rather have material things....its nice to have people praying for you but if you can't cook because you are crying to bad to even do anything, then how is a prayer going to help you eat


----------



## Dead Eye Eddy (Mar 11, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> So Dead Eye Eddy, what's your answer?



I'd look at it on a case by case (person by person) basis.  Are you saying that different people can't do different things?  If so, then cook for me if you can cook and get someone else who can to do it if you can't.  I love to eat.


----------



## Gaducker (Mar 11, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> So what is your answer?



I dont have an answer for you because like I said I dont have to think about things like that in time of need because of the company I keep.

I will pray for you and bring you some collard greens and even help you eatem if you are in need.


----------



## gtparts (Mar 11, 2011)

I am good with doing either, as I usually do both. So, with regard to being on the receiving end, I am good with either. Grieving doesn't eliminate the practical aspects of daily life and I am sure that my needs will be met. I fully expect that each dear friend will do as they feels best meets my needs through their giftedness. I would like to think that I would be sensitive to their needs, where the roles were reversed.

Sit with me, pray with me...... and when we get hungry, we will find something to eat. The grass will get cut, sooner or later. 

All those things, those actions taken by others are answers to prayers, whether spoken or the unspoken groans of the heart.  

There really is no wrong answer. Whichever you choose to do will be appreciated.


----------



## Jeffriesw (Mar 11, 2011)

I also do not see the reason for having to choose, but, you asked it that way so I will answer it.

I will take the prayer.

Psalms 37:25

 I have been young, and now am old,
yet I have not seen the righteous forsaken
or his children begging for bread.


----------



## fredw (Mar 11, 2011)

I lost my wife of 35 years in 2008.  I'll respond with how I felt then and continue to think.  Help was offered by many but the thing that meant the most and was the most comforting was the prayer.  Meals were nice but I really had no interest in eating.  Mowing the lawn was nice but I sat while it was done and grieved.  Physical action (i.e., mowing my own lawn) could have been theraputic.  

Prayer and hugs helped the most.


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Mar 11, 2011)

fredw said:


> I lost my wife of 35 years in 2008.  I'll respond with how I felt then and continue to think.  Help was offered by many but the thing that meant the most and was the most comforting was the prayer.  Meals were nice but I really had no interest in eating.  Mowing the lawn was nice but I sat while it was done and grieved.  Physical action (i.e., mowing my own lawn) could have been theraputic.
> 
> Prayer and hugs helped the most.



I'm sorry you are able to give such a good answer.  Thank ya for it.


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Mar 11, 2011)

gtparts said:


> I am good with doing either, as I usually do both. So, with regard to being on the receiving end, I am good with either. Grieving doesn't eliminate the practical aspects of daily life and I am sure that my needs will be met. I fully expect that each dear friend will do as they feels best meets my needs through their giftedness. I would like to think that I would be sensitive to their needs, where the roles were reversed.
> 
> Sit with me, pray with me...... and when we get hungry, we will find something to eat. The grass will get cut, sooner or later.
> 
> ...



Fair enough.


----------



## Ronnie T (Mar 11, 2011)

fredw said:


> I lost my wife of 35 years in 2008.  I'll respond with how I felt then and continue to think.  Help was offered by many but the thing that meant the most and was the most comforting was the prayer.  Meals were nice but I really had no interest in eating.  Mowing the lawn was nice but I sat while it was done and grieved.  Physical action (i.e., mowing my own lawn) could have been theraputic.
> 
> Prayer and hugs helped the most.



Prayers and hugs do help the most.

Don't have to say anything.  Do have to cook if you don't want to.  Most people feel great relief in your neck hugs.
The ladies normally cook, cause they feel they need to do 'something' and there's very little that can be done.
Be a companion when needed.
And ask God to help them understand death and deal with in in the coming days.


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Mar 12, 2011)

johnnylightnin said:


> And as helpful as asking whether or not you'd like a miniature unicorn or a miniature centaur as a pocket pet if you had to choose between the two.



If you can't cooperate, please stay off this thread.  Thanks.


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Mar 12, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Here is a question where you do have to decide, do you want to live your life with or without God, and are you willing to accept the end results of your decisions?



New topic = new thread, imho.


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Mar 12, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> My answer would be both.  I'd choose both.



Well that's too bad because you can't do that.


----------



## thedeacon (Mar 12, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> If you can't cooperate, please stay off this thread.  Thanks.




If you were one of my sons or grandsons, we would be sitting down having a long talk about

ARROGANCE


----------



## johnnylightnin (Mar 12, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> If you can't cooperate, please stay off this thread.  Thanks.



I'm not violating any rules.  If you don't want to hear about why your hypothetical is silly, then don't post it on the open board.

Thanks.


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Mar 12, 2011)

thedeacon said:


> If you were one of my sons or grandsons, we would be sitting down having a long talk about
> 
> ARROGANCE



That wouldn't happen.  I would have long since run away from home, trust me.


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Mar 12, 2011)

johnnylightnin said:


> I'm not violating any rules.  If you don't want to hear about why your hypothetical is silly, then don't post it on the open board.
> 
> Thanks.



By your own admissions, you don't want to respond to the question posed to the board and would rather critique it.  How is that not potstirring?  Note: not responding at all is clearly not potstirring.


----------



## StriperAddict (Mar 12, 2011)

As Fred well said... prayers and hugs... if I was the one grieving over a loss.

Now it may be out of bounds, but on the flip side... if I came to offer prayer support and was asked to pitch in with needs, there is no way in hot place that I'd walk away from doing that.  In the real world, there is not just 'one' choice for me.  I'm coming to give both.


----------



## Ronnie T (Mar 12, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> By your own admissions, you don't want to respond to the question posed to the board and would rather critique it.  How is that not potstirring?  Note: not responding at all is clearly not potstirring.



Here's the reason you're getting so much resistance.
This is a spiritual forum.  Period.  A SPIRITUAL forum.

You, and we all honestly know you, enter it posing what amounts to a unspiritual question.
I did step forward and answer it but I wasn't comfortable selecting one when I knew the answer had to be both.

So, my friend, you posed the question, now deal with the inappropriateness of it.............. or delete the thread.

I personally need to stop responding to any of your comments because you are always the same.  Your purpose always seems (to me) to be to turn pearls into puke.

So stop your whinning.


----------



## Gaducker (Mar 12, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> That wouldn't happen.  I would have long since run away from home, trust me.




I would hope you are grown cause you wouldnt come back to my house till you found something that you have obviously lost.


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Mar 12, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Here's the reason you're getting so much resistance.
> This is a spiritual forum.  Period.  A SPIRITUAL forum.



Yep, and by SPIRITUAL you mean "Christian only".  You have the Judeo-Christian forum so your bewilderment is entirely misplaced.


----------



## rjcruiser (Mar 12, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Well that's too bad because you can't do that.



Yes I can 

Just like you can continue to troll, I can answer any way I want.


----------



## crackerdave (Mar 12, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> What is your answer, crackerdave, the prayers or the assistance?



Ho-hum...... I guess I'll vote for "both."


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Mar 12, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Yes I can
> 
> Just like you can continue to troll, I can answer any way I want.



This is trolling, my friend.  Thanks.


----------



## Huntinfool (Mar 14, 2011)

Gander and goose....what's good for one isn't good for the other, huh Ham?


----------



## glynr329 (Mar 14, 2011)

Very simple prayers.


----------



## Michael F. Gray (Mar 14, 2011)

Your conclusion is based on faulty reasoning. Any committed Christian is going to Pray for known needs. I would hope they would also reach out. My own Church family has several ministries to assist individuals in doing just that. It often involves meals being delivered by ladies and retired folks during hours younger workers can't get off. Go back to the drawing board and stop jumping into an empty pool.


----------



## johnnylightnin (Mar 14, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> By your own admissions, you don't want to respond to the question posed to the board and would rather critique it.  How is that not potstirring?  Note: not responding at all is clearly not potstirring.



Guess I'll have to get a definitive definition of potstirring.  As you seem to be defining it, I'm not sure the "discussion" part of this forum title can be achieved.  I'll leave you alone now, I think my point has been made.


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Mar 14, 2011)

Michael F. Gray said:


> Your conclusion is based on faulty reasoning. Any committed Christian is going to Pray for known needs. I would hope they would also reach out. My own Church family has several ministries to assist individuals in doing just that. It often involves meals being delivered by ladies and retired folks during hours younger workers can't get off. Go back to the drawing board and stop jumping into an empty pool.



 What conclusion did I reach?


----------



## egomaniac247 (Mar 16, 2011)

I've never really been a needy person.  I'm sure at a time of crisis and tragedy it's nice to have food prepared and other things taken care of but I personally would feel better knowing that someone was praying for me.

I'll take the prayers.


----------



## Lowjack (Mar 16, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Praying for the deceased does absolutely no good.  Praying for comfort for the remaining might be helpful.
> 
> .



Where would I find scripture to back that Christian Teaching ??

A passage in the New Testament which may refer to a prayer for the dead is found in 2 Timothy 1:16-18, which reads as follows:

"May the Lord grant mercy to the house of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain, but when he was in Rome, he sought me diligently, and found me (the Lord grant to him to find the Lord's mercy on that day); and in how many things he served at Ephesus, you know very well."
As with the verses from 2 Maccabees, these verses refer to prayers that will help the deceased "on that day" (perhaps Judgement Day, see also end times). It is not stated that Onesiphorus, for whom Saint Paul prayed, was dead, though some scholars infer this, based on the way Paul only refers to him in the past tense, and prays for present blessings on his household, but for him only "on that day". And towards the end of the same letter, in 2 Timothy 4:19, Paul sends greetings to "Prisca and Aquila, and the house of Onesiphorus", distinguishing the situation of Onesiphorus from that of the still living Prisca and Aquila.
TraditionPrayer for the dead is well documented within early Christianity, both among prominent Church Fathers and the Christian community in general. In Eastern Orthodoxy Christians pray for "such souls as have departed with faith, but without having had time to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance".


----------



## rjcruiser (Mar 16, 2011)

Lowjack said:


> Where would I find scripture to back that Christian Teaching ??
> 
> A passage in the New Testament which may refer to a prayer for the dead is found in 2 Timothy 1:16-18, which reads as follows:
> 
> ...





You ask for scriptures, but give no scripture in return.  Sure you quote 2 passages above, plus reference the apocrypha, but neither of those two passages say anything about praying for the dead.

When praying for the dead, what good do you think can come of it?


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Mar 16, 2011)

ekim22 said:


> I've never really been a needy person.  I'm sure at a time of crisis and tragedy it's nice to have food prepared and other things taken care of but I personally would feel better knowing that someone was praying for me.
> 
> I'll take the prayers.



Good explanation.  Thanks.


----------



## ted_BSR (Mar 18, 2011)

Get thee behind me Six.


----------



## DavidB (Apr 14, 2011)

Well, this is a silly question as the RULE is not a rule in the first place. To answer your question as to which is more beneficial, simply put, it would depend on the person. 

The value of things is mostly determined by the person who recieves them. A prayer to an athiest would be usless, even insulting. To a believer, depending on who was doing the praying, it would be cherished.

A good pot of stew to someone who can't cook might be more prized than anything!

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## pbradley (Apr 14, 2011)

Fallacies in Critical Thinking: the False Dilemma.

A false dilemma (also called false dichotomy, the either-or fallacy, fallacy of false choice, black and white thinking or the fallacy of exhaustive hypotheses) is a type of logical fallacy that involves a situation in which only two alternatives are considered, when in fact there are additional options. (Or both alternatives are acceptable - pb)

False dilemma can arise intentionally, when fallacy is used in an attempt to force a choice...


Stupid game, stupid fallacy, intentionally designed in an attempt to force an unnecessary choice on the reader. The only logical answer is to graciously and gratefully accept whatever aid and comfort is offered, including BOTH when offered.


----------

