# Seeking advice of non-believers...



## dexrusjak (May 5, 2012)

So here's the situation.  I'm a middle school teacher.  I teach at a great school, but, as in any middle school, there is some bullying that takes place.  As a teacher it is my job to squelch any and all bullying when it comes to my attention.

Yesterday, I heard some students in the hallway giving another student a hard time about being an atheist.  These kids weren't being overly cruel or anything, but it was teetering on bullying.  As with any situation like this, I immediately intervened, squelched their banter and sent them to class, no big deal.

My students don't know that I'm an atheist.  It is unprofessional to discuss such matters with students.  However, I feel for this atheist student of mine.  It's pretty apparent that he's a bit of a loner; now I wonder how much his open atheism plays a part in that.

What I really want to do, is take him aside one day and encourage him that it's quite alright to be an atheist.  I want to tell him that he should always stand up for what he believes in and not get down when people give him a hard time about his atheism.  I'd like to give him a copy of _The God Delusion_ and tell him about my own journey into atheism (but I'm confident this would be unprofessional).  

I'm sure I probably see about 1% of the actual bullying that takes place among my students.  So it's likely that this kid is being legitimately bullied frequently, and we all know the consequences that can come from that.  I just want to encourage this kid, but I don't really know how to best do it while maintaining professionalism.  Also, I don't want it getting out to my students that I'm an atheist.  That would open up a whole can of unpleasantness for me.  I do have a good relationship with the student (with all my students, really), and I know he would listen to me.  Should I talk to the kid or not?  What should I say?  Any advice on the subject is greatly appreciated.


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## Davis31052 (May 5, 2012)

"It is unprofessional to discuss such matters with students"  nuff said.  

No disrespect to you. Just be the teacher, nothing more or less.


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## dexrusjak (May 5, 2012)

I know you're right.  But with the horror stories you read in the news about teen suicide and what not.  I don't know if I could live with myself if something really bad came from this situation and I did nothing.  We've already had 3 teens commit suicide this year in my region.


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## WaltL1 (May 5, 2012)

You can let him know that IF he is being bullyed, he can come to you. Enough kids committ suicide because they are being bullyed.
However your belief or nonbelief is your personal business and should be kept to yourself. That is if you want to keep your job anyway. His belief or non belief is his and his parents matter not the schools and as a teacher you are part of the school.
If he is being bullyed for whatever reason, your job is not to discuss it with him at length it is to report it immediately.
My opinion anyway.


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## ambush80 (May 5, 2012)

Prevent the bullying when you can.  That's your job.  But your main job is to educate.  I don't see any problem with educating him to the fact that there are atheist resources available to him, perhaps even through the school library.   I don't think it would be wrong to let him know that there is probably a Bible and a Koran in the library as well.  It doesn't reflect on your personal position.


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## Artfuldodger (May 5, 2012)

Tell him the bullies are not very good examples of Christians.


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## Asath (May 6, 2012)

Not sure what subject you teach, but in just about any context it is fair and reasonable to spend a class explaining to the students the reason why they are in school to begin with.

The world around them is filled to overwhelming capacity with both facts and fictions, truths and opinions.  Your job is to relate to them the things you know to be facts, and to cause them to think, realistically, about all of the things they will encounter that are NOT facts.  There can be no differences of opinion about 2+2=4.  But most of the life they will later encounter is not that easy, and they need to be told, in a reasonable way, that it will be their own development of their own minds, and their own approach to critical thinking that will serve them.  

They need to know that it matters not WHAT one Believes.  Because, objectively and truthfully, a Belief is not a fact.  This idea violates no educational doctrines.  They need to know that BECAUSE a Belief is not a fact, and cannot be quantified or verified as such, ALL Beliefs are therefore equally valid.  (You need not point out to the young that this also means that they are also all equally INVALID – they will each and all make their own connections to the idea.)

I think you may fairly, and above reproach, explain that religious, political, and ideological differences are the reality of the world in which they live, and that reality will not go away anytime soon.  So, in order to live properly, and function properly, in the world as it exists, the best approach they can adopt is to try to understand the basis of the differences (read: further education), and to accept that not everyone is like them, and will never be.  

You can call this one the ‘Open Your minds, But Not So Far That Your Brains Fall Out’ lecture.  Properly scripted, and carefully delivered, there is no possibility of offending and every opportunity to educate.


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## gemcgrew (May 6, 2012)

dexrusjak said:


> Yesterday, I heard some students in the hallway giving another student a hard time about being an atheist.  These kids weren't being overly cruel or anything, but it was teetering on bullying.  As with any situation like this, I immediately intervened, squelched their banter and sent them to class, no big deal.



This seams natural and healthy to me. It will strengthen his position and probably make them question theirs. As far as the bullying, you did the right thing by intervening.

Reminds me of the 6th grade. Our class was lined up in the hallway and we were leaning against the wall. The bully of our class kicked the legs out from under the girl next to him. She landed on her backside and he laughed at her pain. I moved over next to him and as he leaned on the wall, I returned the favor. We met after school and he got the best of me. It did curtail his bullying the rest of the year. He realized that there would be consequences for his actions.


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## atlashunter (May 6, 2012)

All good advice here. I would definitely not share my personal views and I think even recommending a book might be treading on thin ice. Approaching him about religion is probably stepping out of bounds. Stopping the bullying, letting him know your door is open if he needs someone to talk to, and encouraging critical thinking and a willingness to question everything are all appropriate.


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## bigreddwon (May 6, 2012)

If the shoe was on the other foot.. Atheists picking on a Christian and and you were a Christian, I don't think ANY Christian would see harm in telling the kid that you were also a Christian and that if he needed to talk you'd be there.. 

Stopping bullying is a teachers job, but letting him know hes not alone in his beliefs is being a good human to another human. Its not out of bounds any more than a Christian teacher having a Jesus/fish bumper sticker or wearing religious jewelry to school or saying "God Bless you" when you sneeze...  You DO NOT have to hide your Atheism, in fact you have a right to express your religious beliefs as much as any other teacher does..IMO.


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## JB0704 (May 6, 2012)

bigreddwon said:


> You DO NOT have to hide your Atheism, in fact you have a right to express your religious beliefs as much as any other teacher does..IMO.



The man has a career to consider.  Many local school boards are run by zealous stay-at-home mom's.  Being labeled an atheist is not a good idea when dealing with a public school system.  Particularly if one intends to advance into positions which must be approved by the board.

Bullying is a serious problem.  Kids are not allowed to handle it the "old fashioned" way that Gemcrew described anymore.  When I was a kid, we just met out back and that was that. Even if the bully won the fight, the bullying usually ended. Now, both sides are punished, regardless of whether or not there was an obvious offender.  My kid got in trouble a few years back for punching a bully who had been kicking him (another of the 100 reasons why he is no longer in public school).

Even though the question was for non-believers, I am hoping that the bully is handled in the appropriate manner.  Kids get frustrated now that they have no recourse.  Personally, I would leave faith out of it.  Even if it was atheists bullying a Christian.  Just get the bully in trouble, suspended, whatever is needed to make it stop.


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## ambush80 (May 6, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> All good advice here. I would definitely not share my personal views and I think even recommending a book might be treading on thin ice. Approaching him about religion is probably stepping out of bounds. Stopping the bullying, letting him know your door is open if he needs someone to talk to, and encouraging critical thinking and a willingness to question everything are all appropriate.




You're right.  Recommending or even naming any particular book could indicate bias. Just teach them how to learn and think.


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## hummdaddy (May 6, 2012)

all good advice ...just be careful, we are the hated and out numbered ones...


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## Six million dollar ham (May 6, 2012)

Davis31052 said:


> "It is unprofessional to discuss such matters with students"  nuff said.
> 
> No disrespect to you. Just be the teacher, nothing more or less.



Wrong, he has to be the educator.  It is difficult to educate with a barrier like bullying getting in the way.


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## Six million dollar ham (May 6, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> The man has a career to consider.  Many local school boards are run by zealous stay-at-home mom's.  Being labeled an atheist is not a good idea when dealing with a public school system.  Particularly if one intends to advance into positions which must be approved by the board.
> 
> Even though the question was for non-believers, I am hoping that the bully is handled in the appropriate manner.  Kids get frustrated now that they have no recourse.  Personally, I would leave faith out of it.  Even if it was atheists bullying a Christian.  Just get the bully in trouble, suspended, whatever is needed to make it stop.



Good advice.


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## Havana Dude (May 6, 2012)

Ok, first, I am a believer. Second, yes I read you wanted advice from other non-believers. Third, I will not give advice since it would be perceived as bias. I only have one question. Have you contacted or attempted contact of the childs parents? They may or may not want their child to be "guided" by an athiest in this matter. Or they may not care one way or the other.


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## Ronnie T (May 6, 2012)

If you see continued evidence, bring all parents and school admin into the situation.

Possibly parents and children might need counsiling.  No subject should be bullied upon another.

Those children are wrong.  And they learned it from someone.


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## bullethead (May 6, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> If you see continued evidence, bring all parents and school admin into the situation.
> 
> Possibly parents and children might need counsiling.  No subject should be bullied upon another.
> 
> Those children are wrong.  And they learned it from someone.



EXCELLENT Advice Ron.
Report it to your superiors and along with them and the parents find a way to handle it before it gets out of control. No need to try to contain it yourself and involve your personal beliefs.


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## TTom (May 6, 2012)

I would think a recommended reading list that was less about atheism and more about how to handle bulling, how to maintain self respect, list of people he could speak with if things get tough, etc would be a great thing for a teacher to provide.

Give the young person tools they can use to handle all of life not just their belief system. You already noted that the atheism is not the only isolating thing in this young person's life.


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## gemcgrew (May 6, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Bullying is a serious problem.  Kids are not allowed to handle it the "old fashioned" way that Gemcrew described anymore.



My daughter just graduated. When she was in the 6th grade, the boy seated behind her was constantly poking her with a pencil. Her teacher, after being made aware of the situation, made no attempt to resolve the matter. I spent one evening teaching my daughter how to apply her fist to a nose. We both ended up in the principal's office. That is what it took to resolve the issue. I am in favor of the "old fashioned" way.


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## G20 (May 6, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> My daughter just graduated. When she was in the 6th grade, the boy seated behind her was constantly poking her with a pencil. Her teacher, after being made aware of the situation, made no attempt to resolve the matter. I spent one evening teaching my daughter how to apply her fist to a nose. We both ended up in the principal's office. That is what it took to resolve the issue. I am in favor of the "old fashioned" way.



You did quite well, and I really wish things were the way they used to be.  I see you too are in Acworth.  Cobb county schools, in a very conservative and normally quite sane and reasonable area...  However, I learned from my 11th grade daughter, that one cannot defend oneself, AT ALL, if attacked.  Heck, even other students just standing there and watching a fight, get suspended.  Someone can be kneeling on a childs's chest, pounding his or her face, and if he or she does anything at all in defense, then he or she is GUILTY of some junk.  How incredibly stupid is that?

To further illustrate this stupidity, an administrator at her school got into a verbal argument with the parent of a student.  The administrator shoved the parent up against a wall.  Legally, out of a school, that is perfect and legal grounds for a butt whooping.  But, in school, that parent got arrested, and the administrator still has his job.  What...the...blankety blank, blank???


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## Four (May 7, 2012)

Be careful bringing the parents into the situation, sometimes the biggest bullies when it comes to an atheist child are the parents. I've known people physically hit, and even thrown out of home for saying that they're atheist.

Are you in Georgia? A lot of this depends on were you live and what kind of environment you are in. If you're in a small town bible belt school you could get run out of town... That being said letting this child know he's not alone could really alter his life depending on what he's going through.


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## Havana Dude (May 7, 2012)

Don't you all know you cannot discriminate against an employee for a whole laundry list of things, including religion(or lack thereof). At the very least, the OP should notify parents of the bullying, forget the atheism part. Why do you need to support someone for something they  don't believe in? Involve the parents!!

Four- are you a parent?


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## Four (May 7, 2012)

Havana Dude said:


> Don't you all know you cannot discriminate against an employee for a whole laundry list of things, including religion(or lack thereof).



That's true, but it can be fairly irrelevant depending on were you are. You can still be bullied out, threatened, etc.



Havana Dude said:


> Four- are you a parent?



No


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## JB0704 (May 7, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> My daughter just graduated. When she was in the 6th grade, the boy seated behind her was constantly poking her with a pencil. Her teacher, after being made aware of the situation, made no attempt to resolve the matter. I spent one evening teaching my daughter how to apply her fist to a nose. We both ended up in the principal's office. That is what it took to resolve the issue. I am in favor of the "old fashioned" way.



I am too.  I got in trouble with my kid's school also when the situation I described happened.  My boy is one of those kids who never gets in trouble, so they asked him why in the world he would punch somebody.  Well, being the honest little fella he is, he says "I did exactly as I was taught."  The principle informed me that I could not teach my son to go around punching people.  I informed her that my son would not always have a principle to stick up for him, and I would continue to do my job as a father and raise him to stand up for himself.  I said "you do your job, and I will do mine."  Needless to say, they were very on board with the idea of him being transferred to private school.


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## stringmusic (May 7, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> You're right.  Recommending or even naming any particular book could indicate bias. Just teach them how to learn and think.



And in what direction do you think that will lead the kid?


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## JB0704 (May 7, 2012)

G20 said:


> You did quite well, and I really wish things were the way they used to be.  I see you too are in Acworth.  Cobb county schools, in a very conservative and normally quite sane and reasonable area...  However, I learned from my 11th grade daughter, that one cannot defend oneself, AT ALL, if attacked.  Heck, even other students just standing there and watching a fight, get suspended.  Someone can be kneeling on a childs's chest, pounding his or her face, and if he or she does anything at all in defense, then he or she is GUILTY of some junk.  How incredibly stupid is that?
> 
> To further illustrate this stupidity, an administrator at her school got into a verbal argument with the parent of a student.  The administrator shoved the parent up against a wall.  Legally, out of a school, that is perfect and legal grounds for a butt whooping.  But, in school, that parent got arrested, and the administrator still has his job.  What...the...blankety blank, blank???



It's the same way in Paulding.  It's the post Columbine era we live in.  I finished high school in the mid-nineties before all that mess.  We got in a lot of fights back then, but nobody ever got shot, stabbed, bludgeoned, etc.  We just had it out, then it was over.  Nobody came back the next day with a gun.

My boy got in as much trouble as the bully who had been kicking him all morning in class.  The administration knew the other kid was a bully, and they admitted that they knew the other kid has started it, and that my son was ignored by a teacher when he asked for assistance.  It didn't matter one bit.  Absolutely ridiculous.

This approach puts a lot more pressure on the teachers to be vigilant and make sure any circumstance of bullying is addressed immidiately.  Kids who can't defend themselves will have a lot of anger bottled up.  It tends to come out in very unhealthy ways.  

I hope the situation in the OP is addressed in the best way possible.  But, guard your career.  Folks in the Bible belt don't really like athesits teaching their young'uns.  It is what it is.


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## TheBishop (May 7, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> And in what direction do you think that will lead the kid?



In the best possible direction.


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## gemcgrew (May 7, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I am too.  I got in trouble with my kid's school also when the situation I described happened.



It is a dilemma when we relegate our responsibilities as parents and place our children in the care of others. When I found myself encouraging my children not to cower under their desk at the sound of gunshots, we removed them from the system and went the home-school route. Katie is finished and Shane has 1 more year.


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## stringmusic (May 7, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> In the best possible direction.



Which is.....


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## atlashunter (May 7, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Which is.....



Still don't get it do you?


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## TheBishop (May 7, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Which is.....



To think, question,and not just believe. To find the best possibility out of all possibilities. Accept nothing as the truth, except what can be verified.  And that there is no substitute for logic. Pretty much the opposite of belief.


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## stringmusic (May 7, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Still don't get it do you?



I very much so get it. The answer you fellas want to give and for some reason won't is " if he teaches the kid to think and learn he will wholeheartedly endorse his atheism, because people of faith, especially the Christian faith, _obviously_ don't do those things" to which I say........


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## stringmusic (May 7, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> *To think, question,*and not just believe. To find the best possibility out of all possibilities. Accept nothing as the truth, except what can be verified.  And that there is no substitute for logic. Pretty much the opposite of belief.



That was the premise of Ambush's question, that is not an answer to which direction it would lead the young kid.


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## gtparts (May 7, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> To think, question,and not just believe. To find the best possibility out of all possibilities. Accept nothing as the truth, except what can be verified.  And that there is no substitute for logic. Pretty much the opposite of belief.



Truth trumps logic, Logic does not always produce truth.


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## TheBishop (May 7, 2012)

gtparts said:


> Truth trumps logic, Logic does not always produce truth.



You cannot find the truth without logic. The truth is logical, in cannot be the truth if it isn't.


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## Nastytater (May 7, 2012)

Way too many times these days all I hear in this country are how people are affraid to offend someone. I'm going to say now,that I am a believer in Jesus Christ,but I don't like the idea of a child being bullied,believer or not. Thier religious views are their own personal prefference. BUT,it shouldn't be up too the teacher to tell a child that it's ok to be one way or the other. If the child is being bullied,then yes,see that the child gets help from a reliable source. Isn't that what the social workers are there for in the schools? Or are there any social workers in the schools now adays?..I have no children either or any teachers in my family so I wouldn't know. But it just seems like common sense that it's NOT the teachers place to carry out this position.  By the way,What ever happened to "Under God" in the national anthem?...Did somebody get offended?


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## Nastytater (May 7, 2012)

G20 said:


> You did quite well, and I really wish things were the way they used to be.  I see you too are in Acworth.  Cobb county schools, in a very conservative and normally quite sane and reasonable area...  However, I learned from my 11th grade daughter, that one cannot defend oneself, AT ALL, if attacked.  Heck, even other students just standing there and watching a fight, get suspended.  Someone can be kneeling on a childs's chest, pounding his or her face, and if he or she does anything at all in defense, then he or she is GUILTY of some junk.  How incredibly stupid is that?
> 
> To further illustrate this stupidity, an administrator at her school got into a verbal argument with the parent of a student.  The administrator shoved the parent up against a wall.  Legally, out of a school, that is perfect and legal grounds for a butt whooping.  But, in school, that parent got arrested, and the administrator still has his job.  What...the...blankety blank, blank???




Teachers or Principles doing the shoving may still have the job,but they definitely wouldn't have been at work for a good week or so,IF it was me they shoved. I'll gurantee ya that. A night in jail would have been fine with me.


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## TheBishop (May 7, 2012)

"Under God" was never in the national anthem. The term is found in the pledge.  Which was written by a christian socialist.  Ironically his version did not contain the term, it was added later. The first pledge when recited was occumpanied by the bellamy salute made famous by the nazi's.  The plede itself has some extremely statist overtones.  It is not a pledge of freedom.


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## dexrusjak (May 8, 2012)

Thanks for all the insight, good stuff.

As one of you mentioned, if the roles were reversed and an atheist were picking on a Christian for his beliefs, I think many of my colleagues would see it as their Christian duty to not only defend the kid against the bullies, but to reaffirm the Christian student's faith by sharing their own.  Such action, would likely be endorsed and praised by the majority of the community (Here in my part of Georgia, EVERYONE is a Bible-believing, church-going Christian.).  I feel very confident that if I were to share my atheism with my student, some very negative consequences would follow.  I would likely lose my job (The official reason for which would in no way hint at discrimination based on religion, or lack thereof, but that's exactly what the true reason would be.), lose friends, and lose my standing in the community in which I live.

Over the past few days, since I witnessed the original incident, I have gone out of my way to be friendly to the atheist student.  I have not (and will not) shared my own atheism with him, but I have let him know that there's an adult here at school that he can talk to if he needs to.  I think that's the best way to handle it right now. 

Thanks for the insight.


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## atlashunter (May 8, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> I very much so get it. The answer you fellas want to give and for some reason won't is " if he teaches the kid to think and learn he will wholeheartedly endorse his atheism, because people of faith, especially the Christian faith, _obviously_ don't do those things" to which I say........



No sir you don't get it. I'd rather see someone reach your position through critical thinking than to reach mine through wish thinking.


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## G20 (May 8, 2012)

dexrusjak said:


> Thanks for all the insight, good stuff.
> 
> As one of you mentioned, if the roles were reversed and an atheist were picking on a Christian for his beliefs, I think many of my colleagues would see it as their Christian duty to not only defend the kid against the bullies, but to reaffirm the Christian student's faith by sharing their own.  Such action, would likely be endorsed and praised by the majority of the community (Here in my part of Georgia, EVERYONE is a Bible-believing, church-going Christian.).  I feel very confident that if I were to share my atheism with my student, some very negative consequences would follow.  I would likely lose my job (The official reason for which would in no way hint at discrimination based on religion, or lack thereof, but that's exactly what the true reason would be.), lose friends, and lose my standing in the community in which I live.
> 
> ...



I think you handled that as perfectly as it could have been handled.  And funny how those who call themselves Christians might have seen to you losing your job if you handled the situation another way.  The definition of Christian is "Christ-like" and "emulating Christ", meaning acting like Christ would act, and would want them to act.  Jesus himself would not see to it that you lost your job, if you acted with a good heart.  And almost every time I see a yuppy car with a fish symbol on the back, I think, "I bet Jesus would use his turn signals" or "I don't think Jesus would intentionally cut someone off".


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## ZFrog (May 21, 2012)

Yeah, if you told students/colleagues you were christian/jewish/etc..; that would be okay. However, if you told them you were atheist, I don't think that would.

Oh, the irony..


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## Havana Dude (May 21, 2012)

Both my son and daughter had an athiest as a teacher(remember, I am a believer). I had some reservations about it to be honest with you. I decided to let it play out, and see what happened. As it turned out, we had no issues with her. She taught her subject and that was it. I think people are forgetting that some parents stay active in their childs life all the way to the age of 18 or so. I know, rare these days. I think problems emerge when someone, believer or athiest, become somewhat militant about their beliefs, and try and force it upon another, especially a minor. We encountered a similar situation in the church we attend, with the youth minister hounding my kids to be in the youth group. It is a small church, and the group is relatively small. My kids really did not want to hang out with them, and instead wanted to be with us. I had no problem with that. My folks forced me to participate in youth activities, and I absolutely hated it, as I did not fit in socially, but my folks would hear none of that. Oh, and I don't hate my parents for what they did either. I just decided to learn from my experience, and try and be an understanding Dad.


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## Havana Dude (May 21, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> My daughter just graduated. When she was in the 6th grade, the boy seated behind her was constantly poking her with a pencil. Her teacher, after being made aware of the situation, made no attempt to resolve the matter. I spent one evening teaching my daughter how to apply her fist to a nose. We both ended up in the principal's office. That is what it took to resolve the issue. I am in favor of the "old fashioned" way.





JB0704 said:


> I am too.  I got in trouble with my kid's school also when the situation I described happened.  My boy is one of those kids who never gets in trouble, so they asked him why in the world he would punch somebody.  Well, being the honest little fella he is, he says "I did exactly as I was taught."  The principle informed me that I could not teach my son to go around punching people.  I informed her that my son would not always have a principle to stick up for him, and I would continue to do my job as a father and raise him to stand up for himself.  I said "you do your job, and I will do mine."  Needless to say, they were very on board with the idea of him being transferred to private school.




I too, share your pain. Let me set the mood. Largest CHRISTIAN school in North Florida. My son was being bullied by a kid a kid twice his size. He would walk behind him and trip him up while having a backpack on heavy enough to use in an iron man competition. This went on for a while as I tried to teach him humility. Well, after personally witnessing said act, and numerous reports to the principal, I took it on myself to teach him how punch him  in the face, and give him the go ahead to punch his lights out. I told him he would not get in trouble by me, but he would likely get suspended. Well he did it about a week later, and he and I both wound up in the principals office. I supported him all the way. We spent the next 3 days sitting in the woods hunting, and talking about the events that led us to hunt those 3 days instead of going to school. He killed his biggest buck ever on the second day of suspension, and I will never forget that. Was what I did right or wrong? I don't care either way. I proved to him that he could stand up for himself and when he could not count on anyone else, he could count on his old man.


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## dexrusjak (May 22, 2012)

Havana Dude said:


> Both my son and daughter had an athiest as a teacher(remember, I am a believer). I had some reservations about it to be honest with you. I decided to let it play out, and see what happened. As it turned out, we had no issues with her. She taught her subject and that was it. I think people are forgetting that some parents stay active in their childs life all the way to the age of 18 or so. I know, rare these days. I think problems emerge when someone, believer or athiest, become somewhat militant about their beliefs, and try and force it upon another, especially a minor. We encountered a similar situation in the church we attend, with the youth minister hounding my kids to be in the youth group. It is a small church, and the group is relatively small. My kids really did not want to hang out with them, and instead wanted to be with us. I had no problem with that. My folks forced me to participate in youth activities, and I absolutely hated it, as I did not fit in socially, but my folks would hear none of that. Oh, and I don't hate my parents for what they did either. I just decided to learn from my experience, and try and be an understanding Dad.



Well said.


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## ZFrog (May 24, 2012)

Havana Dude said:


> I think problems emerge when someone, believer or athiest, become somewhat militant about their beliefs, and try and force it upon another, especially a minor.



Unless you're the parent. Correct?


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## Artfuldodger (May 24, 2012)

ZFrog said:


> Unless you're the parent. Correct?


 Only if you are a Republician should you force your beliefs on your children.


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## Havana Dude (May 24, 2012)

ZFrog said:


> Unless you're the parent. Correct?



Yea, pretty much. Your reply, implies I should do something different, something you would rather see me do as a parent. How bout you raise your kids how you see fit, and I do the same. Until my kids have an adverse affect on your life, it is none of your business how I raise my kids. And by the way, I am not a militant parent. I am a parent who believes a child needs to do as their parent tells them until adulthood. Whether that be mow the grass, or to get dressed we are going to church.



Artfuldodger said:


> Only if you are a Republician should you force your beliefs on your children.



 Really?? .............Ridiculous statement.


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## Artfuldodger (May 24, 2012)

Havana Dude said:


> Really?? .............Ridiculous statement.



My statement was meant for a joke. I think Zfrog was just saying as a parent you have the right to indoctrinate your children as you see fit. My wife and I have tried to bring our children up as Christians but as they got older let them aware that not everyone holds these views. I tried to instill in my children the importance of forming their own views about religion, politics, and things in general without believing in something just because I do. Sometimes it backfires on you and you have to live with it. My wife and grown girls are Democrats and I don't have a problem with it. I'm a little bit country and my wife is a little bit rock & roll. 
I wouldn't have a problem with my kids teachers being an atheist or homosexual. I think their PE teacher was homosexual. Most child molesters are heterosexuals.


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## Havana Dude (May 24, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> My statement was meant for a joke. I think Zfrog was just saying as a parent you have the right to indoctrinate your children as you see fit. My wife and I have tried to bring our children up as Christians but as they got older let them aware that not everyone holds these views. I tried to instill in my children the importance of forming their own views about religion, politics, and things in general without believing in something just because I do. Sometimes it backfires on you and you have to live with it. My wife and grown girls are Democrats and I don't have a problem with it. I'm a little bit country and my wife is a little bit rock & roll.
> I wouldn't have a problem with my kids teachers being an atheist or homosexual. I think their PE teacher was homosexual. Most child molesters are heterosexuals.



Then my apologies to you sir. 

I am dealing with the same type issues. My 19 year old son, who eats my food, sucks up my air conditioning, and goes to college on my dime, has decided for himself, that he does not need or want to go to church (since he turned 18 and is a man and all now) . I am seeing him spread his wings, and find out on his own what he wants or needs for himself. And I'm a republican!!!!


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## Asath (May 24, 2012)

" How bout you raise your kids how you see fit, and I do the same. Until my kids have an adverse affect on your life, it is none of your business how I raise my kids."

As an approach to life, this is pretty much the correct one, but it assumes that the parents in this odd world are all as rational and thoughtful as you are.

Unfortunately, as one can readily see, they are not.  For example, one would venture to guess that as a responsible, thoughtful parent you've taken the basic precautions of things like vaccinations for your children, and adhere to the thought that when a child becomes very ill, past the normal sniffles and fevers, a doctor is required.  But we have people in THIS country who do not BELIEVE in medical intervention, and they BELIEVE that GOD will heal their children -- and the children die, as a result, without ever getting a vote in the matter.  

At what point does one part company with the pure right of a parent to make decisions on behalf of their children, and draw the line between simple differences, either religious or political, and the folks that are just bat-crazy?  Clearly there is a difference, and it needs to be recognized, defined, and codified by ANY civil society, or else there is no difference between one's 'parenting rights' and child abuse.  But, the difference is not quite so clear . . .   

Of course this is an evolving bit of morality, as all morality is, since even child labor laws are relatively recent inventions, and as recently as a hundred years ago 13 year-old girls were routinely promised in marriage to adult men.  Our standards have changed in dozens upon dozens of areas as society has grown and evolved, and applying the standards of yesterday (or worse, the standards that applied in biblical times), will certainly not serve.

But how does one arrive at a standard, even a lowest tolerable level of behavior, in a world that has, on the one hand, children so spoiled and pampered that even the teachers are afraid to reprimand them, and on the other hand societies that will strap bombs to their children and use them as weapons in a Holy War?

Each of those approaches are raising their children as THEY see fit.


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## JABBO (May 25, 2012)

Great post!!!!



Asath said:


> " How bout you raise your kids how you see fit, and I do the same. Until my kids have an adverse affect on your life, it is none of your business how I raise my kids."
> 
> As an approach to life, this is pretty much the correct one, but it assumes that the parents in this odd world are all as rational and thoughtful as you are.
> 
> ...


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## JB0704 (May 25, 2012)

Asath said:


> At what point does one part company with the pure right of a parent to make decisions on behalf of their children, and draw the line between simple differences, either religious or political, and the folks that are just bat-crazy?  Clearly there is a difference, and it needs to be recognized, defined, and codified by ANY civil society, or else there is no difference between one's 'parenting rights' and child abuse.  But, the difference is not quite so clear . . . But how does one arrive at a standard, even a lowest tolerable level of behavior, in a world that has, on the one hand, children so spoiled and pampered that even the teachers are afraid to reprimand them, and on the other hand societies that will strap bombs to their children and use them as weapons in a Holy War?



This is tricky, because I agree with HD that a parent should raise kids as they see fit.  This goes for Christians, Muslims, Hinus, Atheists, scientologists, etc.  Passing on a body of knowledge is a priviledge of parenting.  But, as a society, do we allow a child to be neglected in order to protect religious freedom?  As a parent of two kids, I cannot imagine how asinine a person would have to be to keep kids from receiving medical treatment.  Further, I cannot imagine the evil which must exist in order to promote a kid to kill himself or others in the name of God.

I would think the basis would be human rights.   At what point does the child's rights to life supercede the parents rights to raise their kid's as they see fit?


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## stringmusic (May 25, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> This is tricky, because I agree with HD that a parent should raise kids as they see fit.  This goes for Christians, Muslims, Hinus, Atheists, scientologists, etc.  Passing on a body of knowledge is a priviledge of parenting.  But, as a society, do we allow a child to be neglected in order to protect religious freedom?  As a parent of two kids, *I cannot imagine how asinine a person would have to be to keep kids from receiving medical treatment.*  Further, I cannot imagine the evil which must exist in order to promote a kid to kill himself or others in the name of God.
> 
> I would think the basis would be human rights.   At what point does the child's rights to life supercede the parents rights to raise their kid's as they see fit?



Reminds me of a joke, you've probably heard it, but I'll tell it anyway.

A guy watching the news seen that a flood was coming and was told to evacuate, but he stayed in his house and thought "God will save me"

After a few days the flood waters were so high the only place the man could go was to the roof of his house, but he thought "God will save me"

A rescue boat comes by the mans house but the man tells the rescuers that "God is going to save me!"

A helicopter comes by but the man tells the pilot, "God is going to save me!"

The flood waters eventually got to high and the man drowns. He gets to Heaven and sees God, he says "God, I put my faith in you and you didn't save me, why?"

God tells the man, "I sent a boat, and a helicopter"


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## Havana Dude (May 25, 2012)

Asath said:


> " How bout you raise your kids how you see fit, and I do the same. Until my kids have an adverse affect on your life, it is none of your business how I raise my kids."
> 
> As an approach to life, this is pretty much the correct one, but it assumes that the parents in this odd world are all as rational and thoughtful as you are.
> 
> ...



At first I saw your post as confrontational. But I stepped back and thought about what You are saying. And I actually think we are on the same page here. If you will note, I said "until my kids have an adverse affect on your life, it's none of your business how  I raise my kids". Well, if my child gets ill, and I don't take him/her to the doc, and they go to school, and your kid gets sick, then my actions or lack there of as a parent, have had an adverse affect on your life. True? And if I strap a bomb to my kid, and send him to school, and the bomb goes off, and your kid is injured or killed, then my kid has had an adverse affect on your life. True?  Anytime my actions or inaction as a parent has an affect on someone else, something should be done. Everyone has sat in a restaurant, next to some screaming kid, throwing his Cheerios, and spilling his juice all over creation. That to me has an adverse  affect on other folks and the parents are not doing their job. I guess these are the parents who are just"letting the child express his feelings" or whatever they call it now. No, Dad needs to snatch that kid up, spank his hind end, and make him behave. If the child cannot behave, then they all need to go home.


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## Artfuldodger (May 25, 2012)

Havana Dude said:


> Then my apologies to you sir.
> 
> I am dealing with the same type issues. My 19 year old son, who eats my food, sucks up my air conditioning, and goes to college on my dime, has decided for himself, that he does not need or want to go to church (since he turned 18 and is a man and all now) . I am seeing him spread his wings, and find out on his own what he wants or needs for himself. And I'm a republican!!!!


The prodigal son story comes to mind. 
By the time someone is 19 it wouldn't do any good to force him to go to Church anyway. Even if he is on your dime.
Another interesting thing about young adults is how independent they are one day and not even needing your advice to the next day when they need mechanical help or a carpenter.


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## JB0704 (May 25, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> God tells the man, "I sent a boat, and a helicopter"



Exactly!!  Every time I hear one of the stories about a kid being harmed because of parent's refusal of treatment it gets my blood boiling.  God could use a helicopter or a boat, or a doctor, or nothing.  Choosing the option is our choice.


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## Havana Dude (May 25, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Reminds me of a joke, you've probably heard it, but I'll tell it anyway.
> 
> A guy watching the news seen that a flood was coming and was told to evacuate, but he stayed in his house and thought "God will save me"
> 
> ...



Yes, I know it's a joke, but some people are that crazy. Like the ones who think God is going to walk into their house and heal their  kid. Crazy stuff.


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## JB0704 (May 25, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> The prodigal son story comes to mind.
> By the time someone is 19 it wouldn't do any good to force him to go to Church anyway. Even if he is on your dime.
> Another interesting thing about young adults is how independent they are one day and not even needing your advice to the next day when they need mechanical help or a carpenter.



My dad kicked me out the day I turned 18.  Though harsh, it was good for me.  I have been independent since then.  Because of that, it has kept me from voting democrat because I could see how a person with a pickup truck, a beat up dresser, a few clothes and nothing else could survive without the gov't


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## JB0704 (May 25, 2012)

Havana Dude said:


> Everyone has sat in a restaurant, next to some screaming kid, throwing his Cheerios, and spilling his juice all over creation. That to me has an adverse  affect on other folks and the parents are not doing their job. I guess these are the parents who are just"letting the child express his feelings" or whatever they call it now.



I call it rude and inconsiderate of everybody else.  They are also teaching the child to think of only themselves in any situation.   But hey, if they want rude little brats, that is their issue.....I just won't hang out with them.


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## Havana Dude (May 25, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> The prodigal son story comes to mind.
> By the time someone is 19 it wouldn't do any good to force him to go to Church anyway. Even if he is on your dime.
> Another interesting thing about young adults is how independent they are one day and not even needing your advice to the next day when they need mechanical help or a carpenter.



It's just the fact that we have gone his whole life, not just since he was 17 or something like that. Hey, I did the same thing, but not under my folks roof. While under their roof, I played by their rules.


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## Havana Dude (May 25, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I call it rude and inconsiderate of everybody else.  They are also teaching the child to think of only themselves in any situation.   But hey, if they want rude little brats, that is their issue.....I just won't hang out with them.



You are exactly right. Those kids will never know humility, and will be selfish stubborn crybabies their whole life.


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## stringmusic (May 25, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I call it rude and inconsiderate of everybody else.  They are also teaching the child to think of only themselves in any situation.   But hey, if they want rude little brats, that is their issue.....I just won't hang out with them.



If there is one thing I plan on getting through to my little boy (besides the indoctrination) is that you can't and don't always get what you want, or in another way, what you want doesn't always matter.

To many kids these day are rediculous, my Jack Russell minds better than some folks' youngins.


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## JB0704 (May 25, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> If there is one thing I plan on getting through to my little boy (besides the indoctrination) is that you can't and don't always get what you want, or in another way, what you want doesn't always matter.
> 
> To many kids these day are rediculous, my Jack Russell minds better than some folks' youngins.



Yep.  I used to sing that old Rolling Stones tune to my boy when he was going through the temper tantrum stage....it frustrated him, but he got the point.  My daughter, who is in that phase now, when she starts crying for something we ask "what does crying get you," and she dries her tears and says "nothing."   Two different approaches, one is being raised to be a man, and the other a lady, but they both know that you have to work for and earn the things you want in life.


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## stringmusic (May 25, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Yep.  I used to sing that old Rolling Stones tune to my boy when he was going through the temper tantrum stage....it frustrated him, but he got the point.  My daughter, who is in that phase now, when she starts crying for something we ask "what does crying get you," and she dries her tears and says "nothing."   Two different approaches, one is being raised to be a man, and the other a lady, but they both know that you have to work for and earn the things you want in life.


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## mountainraider68 (May 26, 2012)

I know this was 20 or so days ago so you may not see this man but as a christian there should be NO hate from my side towards you. Christians are people who should be showing GOD's love, not hating or putting you down in any way so im sorry you feel that way. I know GOD has moved in my life so much and i feel it in my prayers everyday the love he has for me, so its hard for me not to share but i have love for you and you have the right to believe what you want.


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## ZFrog (Jun 7, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think Zfrog was just saying as a parent you have the right to indoctrinate your children as you see fit.



I was indeed pointing out that parents force their beliefs upon a minor. 



Artfuldodger said:


> I tried to instill in my children the importance of forming their own views about religion, politics, and things in general without believing in something just because I do.



Bingo, that's how you should do it.


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