# Jesus' deity was divinely limited



## Artfuldodger

Jesus' deity was divinely limited so that His human life might be lived in the same manner as ours. Jesus had to develop a relationship with God. The best way to do this is through prayer. Jesus prayed because He was part human. He wasn't doing it just for show or because God told him to. He often prayed alone. He really needed God's help just as we do. This part I truly believe. If Jesus didn't have a need for prayer then neither do I.
I believe Jesus was praying to his Father in Heaven.


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## Ronnie T

I believe he was also.


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## hobbs27

He was 100% man and 100% God while he walked on this Earth.
Now he is King of Kings and Lord of Lords!


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## Ronnie T

John 10:18
 No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”


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## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> John 10:18
> No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”



Thanks for sharing that verse, it helps explain it.


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## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> Jesus prayed because He was part human.



Not part human.  Fully human and fully God.  He was not a hybrid.


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## 1gr8bldr

Words mean things. To say that he was fully God or any percent God would disqualify the use of the word "man"


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## hobbs27

1gr8bldr said:


> Words mean things. To say that he was fully God or any percent God would disqualify the use of the word "man"



Yes words do mean things, actually he IS fully God.


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## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> John 10:18
> No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”



So far, this is the only Bible reference listed.
Anyone got any others?

.


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## Ronnie T

In the garden, prior to His arrest, to whom did Jesus pray?
And who was Jesus while he was praying?  God, Son of God, or man.


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## Inthegarge

John 10:30:

   I and my Father are one.


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## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> So far, this is the only Bible reference listed.
> Anyone got any others?
> 
> .



Jesus is God as referenced in Genesis 1:26 And God said, let us make man in our image, {notice plurality}

verse 27  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him.  {possesive and singular}

John 10: 30 I and my Father are one.  Could it be any easier to understand?

God is a spirit ...Jesus is God that came to Earth in the flesh as a man, and when left this Earth to be with the Father left behind The Holy Spirit which is God.

H2O is water in its liquid state, ice in solid state, and steam in gas state....Three different states and it's H2O. Water we need to survive, Ice we need for perserving foods and cooling drinks, steam we use for power.
 H2O is easy to understand but God is a spirit, and we are flesh, somethings are just going to be hard to understand in the flesh, but when you call upon the Holy Spirit to enlighten your understanding of Gods word you will see the Holy Spirit acts as a lamp....lighting up Gods word to your understanding.
Jesus was praying to the Father in the garden as a man...He accepted the Fathers will as God.


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## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> In the garden, prior to His arrest, to whom did Jesus pray?
> And who was Jesus while he was praying?  God, Son of God, or man.


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## gordon 2

Ronnie T said:


> In the garden, prior to His arrest, to whom did Jesus pray?
> And who was Jesus while he was praying?  God, Son of God, or man.



Perhaps Jesus was praying with and not to. Perhaps he was the prayer itself, the answer. Perhaps he was to a degree of grace that is fullfillment of the word as in Ezekial's vision and God's promise of Isreal given breath(Spirit) to her dry bones, sinew and flesh.

He was about to give Isreal God's breath, not unlike the breath given to Adam and Eve? He was about to make her flesh incorruptable. He was the verb or the word in genesis, in labour pains.

Perhaps.


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## Israel

When we say "God"...what do we mean?
When we say "man"...what do we mean?

Is there an "old" man?
A "new" man?

Is the new just the old improved? (Like water run through a filter...it gets "most" of the impurities out?)
Or completely different creature?
Is pure water completely different than water with a just a very little bit of arsenic, cadmium, copper and lead remaining? (some would still call that by another name...poison)

Is "God in man" the new creature? Is it just a "mere" man, then?
Is it God then?
My wife carries my name. She upholds my name. Woe to the man/woman who approaches her to diminish my name. (some have tried..."what's wrong with your husband, why does he...? For them it has been like unknowingly touching the third rail).

(Maybe I needn't say anything about anyone approaching me with anything to say about her.)

I consider my wife greater than I. You may ask her how she sees me. 

You could even ask her...are you Israel?
You could ask me...are you Pauline?
No, I am not...Pauline is greater than I am.

(He exalts his word above his name...)
(The Father is greater than I...)

Could it be the new man dwells in the place where he considers everyone better than himself? 

(Along with everyone else there?)
Is it an hilariously wonderful place to be? Where each makes "place" for the other?

Is the "old" man there? Any place at all for him?

Which man is "man"? Does God call the "man" there..."just a man"? 

Joh 3:13  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, _even the Son of man which is in heaven._


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## Artfuldodger

gordon 2 said:


> Perhaps Jesus was praying with and not to. Perhaps he was the prayer itself, the answer. Perhaps he was to a degree of grace that is fullfillment of the word as in Ezekial's vision and God's promise of Isreal given breath(Spirit) to her dry bones, sinew and flesh.
> 
> He was about to give Isreal God's breath, not unlike the breath given to Adam and Eve? He was about to make her flesh incorruptable. He was the verb or the word in genesis, in labour pains.
> 
> Perhaps.



Was Jesus praying to himself?


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Was Jesus praying to himself?



Wasn't part of the reason Jesus came here in the flesh to be an example of how we should live?
 Was he praying to himself (God) for himself or for us?


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## 1gr8bldr

Did Jesus have a God?


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Wasn't part of the reason Jesus came here in the flesh to be an example of how we should live?
> Was he praying to himself (God) for himself or for us?



That was a secondary reason for Jesus being born. I believe he was praying to God in Heaven. I believe his praying was more than to set an example. He oftened prayed alone. He prayed for himself sometimes and he prayed for others sometimes, same as us.


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## 1gr8bldr

hobbs27 said:


> Jesus is God as referenced in Genesis 1:26 And God said, let us make man in our image, {notice plurality}
> 
> verse 27  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him.  {possesive and singular}
> 
> John 10: 30 I and my Father are one. *Could it be any easier to understand?*
> 
> God is a spirit ...Jesus is God that came to Earth in the flesh as a man, and when left this Earth to be with the Father left behind The Holy Spirit which is God.
> 
> H2O is water in its liquid state, ice in solid state, and steam in gas state....Three different states and it's H2O. Water we need to survive, Ice we need for perserving foods and cooling drinks, steam we use for power.
> H2O is easy to understand but God is a spirit, and we are flesh, somethings are just going to be hard to understand in the flesh, but when you call upon the Holy Spirit to enlighten your understanding of Gods word you will see the Holy Spirit acts as a lamp....lighting up Gods word to your understanding.
> Jesus was praying to the Father in the garden as a man...He accepted the Fathers will as God.


LOL, are we not to be "one" with each other? Did Jesus not pray that we all be one? Are we then each other? See John 17:20-23


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## 1gr8bldr

hobbs27 said:


> Yes *words do mean things*, actually he IS fully God.


Yes they do. And man by definition is no part God


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## 1gr8bldr

hobbs27 said:


> Wasn't part of the reason Jesus came here in the flesh to be an example of how we should live?
> Was he praying to himself (God) for himself or for us?


Yea, God put on a man suit to show us how it's done. LOL


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## 1gr8bldr

Did God manifest himself as a man? or in a man?


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## gordon 2

1gr8bldr said:


> Did God manifest himself as a man? or in a man?



Both, He that manifested Himself as a burning bush and from a burning bush.


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## 1gr8bldr

gordon 2 said:


> Both, He that manifested Himself as a burning bush and from a burning bush.


Maybe I should ask a more direct question; What is the New covenant. That God manifest himself as a man? or in man?


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## Ronnie T

Is the resurrected, ascended Jesus, sitting next to God, in heaven right now?  Why two thrones?


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## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> Was Jesus praying to himself?



Don't know but his Me and His self was not ordinary and "Was Jesus praying to himself?" seems to me a question from the ordinary. He had an authority I find hard to understand except that what He spoke came into being, His was an extra-ordinary faith. He was prayer and its answer. He prayed to God not from one to another but as if prayer was fullness of life itself. He was the Word made flesh and the Word and flesh in Him were one.

Maybe, kinda, sorta..... As a creature of Him ( My Lord) everyday I groan a little less to the point that some sufferings are not painful, nor continue as sacrefices in my side...Don't know--just might be something tangible.

Don't know bros. He prayed to the Father? To not see the flesh and the world in Him as we see commonly see the flesh and the world in our selves it is perhaps best to say He prayed to the Father and He and the Father were one.

The language, meanings and the accents change from this side of the Jordan yet we still cleave to the words, the meanings and the sounds of the other? Don't know...I'm a baby, my words not fully formed. I'm on grits, not yet fit for solid foods....a child of the Spirit.


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## gordon 2

Ronnie T said:


> Is the resurrected, ascended Jesus, sitting next to God, in heaven right now?  Why two thrones?





???
Our Father who arth in Heaven, thy Kingdom come.

One throne.


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## Artfuldodger

gordon 2 said:


> ???
> Our Father who arth in Heaven, thy Kingdom come.
> 
> One throne.



I'm thinking Jesus will be sitting next to God in Heaven. Now I don't know if it is a throne or chair.


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## JB0704

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm thinking Jesus will be sitting next to God in Heaven. Now I don't know if it is a throne or chair.





Couldn't resist......


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## Artfuldodger

JB0704 said:


> Couldn't resist......



That whole saying grace  scene is the funniest thing in the movie.


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## JB0704

Artfuldodger said:


> That whole saying grace  scene is the funniest thing in the movie.



Agreed!  I also laughed till I cried at the "driving with a live cougar" part.

Didn't mean to derail the thread.........


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## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> Is the resurrected, ascended Jesus, sitting next to God, in heaven right now?  Why two thrones?



So how many Gods do you worship?

Take a look at John 20:28 and Hebrews 1:8. Jesus is God.


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## Israel

1gr8bldr said:


> LOL, are we not to be "one" with each other? Did Jesus not pray that we all be one? Are we then each other? See John 17:20-23


 
That's a great question.
Particularly since the whole of it's about being "One" just as Jesus and the Father are. 
Can we be one...apart from seeing that?
Do I become you? Do you become "me"?

Isn't it at least worth considering this: Almost everyone of us considers themselves "one" person. 

Yet, in that, do we not experience this (at least at times...and hopefully in a manner being diminished by the revelation of Christ)...we think one thing with intent...say another thing...and yet do even another? 

We say we are "one" person...and yet we often manifest a division in ourselves. 

I will give them singleness of heart and action, so that they will always fear me for their own good and the good of their children after them. Jer 32-39

Perhaps truly being "one" is not like we think it is.


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## gordon 2

Israel said:


> That's a great question.
> Particularly since the whole of it's about being "One" just as Jesus and the Father are.
> Can we be one...apart from seeing that?
> Do I become you? Do you become "me"?
> 
> Isn't it at least worth considering this: Almost everyone of us considers themselves "one" person.
> 
> Yet, in that, do we not experience this (at least at times...and hopefully in a manner being diminished by the revelation of Christ)...we think one thing with intent...say another thing...and yet do even another?
> 
> We say we are "one" person...and yet we often manifest a division in ourselves.
> 
> I will give them singleness of heart and action, so that they will always fear me for their own good and the good of their children after them. Jer 32-39
> 
> Perhaps truly being "one" is not like we think it is.





This thread reminds me of of The First Church of Christ, Scientist's Mary Baker Eddy's writings. I think, if I recall correctly, that Mrs. Eddy would sum it up that we tend to view the world and Jesus from the perspective of flesh but with prayer we come to know creation and Jesus from the oneness of Spirit, or from the nature of Mother-Father God as she names the Creator.

So yes the "one' is not like the flesh counts one.

Just as we spiritualize the union of a man and a women into one flesh with what we call marriage, so perhaps the idea is to spiritualize all our relationships. The idea is that then we would truly see that it is Spirit that engenders or creates and animates our reality and not the other way around.

The problem with these ideas is that they fringe herecies and are not plain in scripture, ---- when scripture is especially read even remotely from the perspective of flesh!


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## hobbs27

1gr8bldr said:


> Yea, God put on a man suit to show us how it's done. LOL



LOL? Really? I can't make you believe in God, and you can't take God away from me, but I see nothing to laugh at.


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## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> 
> This thread reminds me of of The First Church of Christ, Scientist's Mary Baker Eddy's writings. I think, if I recall correctly, that Mrs. Eddy would sum it up that we tend to view the world and Jesus from the perspective of flesh but with prayer we come to know creation and Jesus from the oneness of Spirit, or from the nature of Mother-Father God as she names the Creator.
> 
> So yes the "one' is not like the flesh counts one.
> 
> Just as we spiritualize the union of a man and a women into one flesh with what we call marriage, so perhaps the idea is to spiritualize all our relationships. The idea is that then we would truly see that it is Spirit that engenders or creates and animates our reality and not the other way around.
> 
> The problem with these ideas is that they fringe herecies and are not plain in scripture, ---- when scripture is especially read even remotely from the perspective of flesh!



Great post! Some Christians will remain on the milk and never grow by eating the strong meat in Gods word.


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## Ronnie T

2 Peter 1:17
 17 For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, “This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased”— 


Hebrews 1:3
 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,


Here's my point....... Jesus was not "God" in person per se, Jesus was God's.  Jesus was recognized by God as His son.
He has now returned to heaven, and sits beside His father.

He experienced temptation while upon the earth.  Real temptation.  He needed to withstand that temptation as a man, flesh and blood.  He didn't go without food for 40 days as a Divine spirit.  He life as a human.  He died as a human would die.

But He was the exact representation of God in heaven.
I don't have it all figured out..... you don't either.  We ain't smart enough.  Well, some are!


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## 1gr8bldr

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm thinking Jesus will be sitting next to God in Heaven. Now I don't know if it is a throne or chair.


Jesus is at the right hand, a position of greatest second only to the one who put him there. He rules because God gave him authority. He is our mediator between God and man. Where he intercedes on our behalf when we sin


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## 1gr8bldr

hobbs27 said:


> LOL? Really? I can't make you believe in God, and you can't take God away from me, but I see nothing to laugh at.


The LOL is not personal, just that it always seems to be the first response when this topic comes up. It has become predictable


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## hobbs27

There is only one God.....
 Romans 3:30  Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

The Father is God....
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God,the Father, of whom are all things,

Jesus is God...
 John 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Holy Spirit is God....
1Corinthians 6:17, 6:19 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Jesus is not the Father....
 John 1:1 see above.

Jesus is not the Holy spirit...
 Luke 3: 21-22 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying,the heaven was opened,
And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him

The Father is not the Holy Spirit...
Luke 3:21-22 see above.
Jesus is God, The Father is God, The Holy spirit is God, but neither are the other....Clear as mud?


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## hobbs27

1gr8bldr said:


> The LOL is not personal, just that it always seems to be the first response when this topic comes up. It has become predictable



15He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.


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## 1gr8bldr

hobbs27 said:


> There is only one God.....
> Romans 3:30  Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
> 
> The Father is God....
> 1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God,the Father, of whom are all things,
> 
> Jesus is God...
> John 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
> 
> The Holy Spirit is God....
> 1Corinthians 6:17, 6:19 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
> What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
> 
> Jesus is not the Father....
> John 1:1 see above.
> 
> Jesus is not the Holy spirit...
> Luke 3: 21-22 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying,the heaven was opened,
> And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him
> 
> The Father is not the Holy Spirit...
> Luke 3:21-22 see above.
> Jesus is God, The Father is God, The Holy spirit is God, but neither are the other....Clear as mud?


Why did Jesus receive the promised Holy Spirit? Acts 2:33------- John 1;1 does not prove the trinity. Kind of like the "us" in Gen. Could be 1,2, 3, 4, 5. The oneness crowd uses these against the trinity as if it supports their belief


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## 1gr8bldr

Unless someone request to see the arguments, I am not going to continue. I could show the opposing argument to every socalled trin proof text. But no sense in us having a battle of the scriptures.


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## hobbs27

1gr8bldr said:


> Why did Jesus receive the promised Holy Spirit? Acts 2:33------- John 1;1 does not prove the trinity. Kind of like the "us" in Gen. Could be 1,2, 3, 4, 5. The oneness crowd uses these against the trinity as if it supports their belief



John 1:1 Proves Jesus was with God in the beginning..and it proves Jesus is God...and in the beginning there was only God..and he said "Let us make man in our image"  I don't know how you can twist that around to change what it means. God is they, and they are The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost.

Jesus is "The way" "The truth" "The Door" "The Great I am" " The Word" but most of all he is God


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## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> John 1:1 Proves Jesus was with God in the beginning..and it proves Jesus is God...and in the beginning there was only God..and he said "Let us make man in our image"  I don't know how you can twist that around to change what it means. God is they, and they are The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost.
> 
> Jesus is "The way" "The truth" "The Door" "The Great I am" " The Word" but most of all he is God



And He sits next to God on the throne.  Right?

He is our Lord, our Savior, the slain Lamb, our mediator, and God?
How is Jesus able to do that?
How does He mediate between us and God if He is God already?


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## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> 2 Peter 1:17
> 17 For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, “This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased”—



I don't dispute That the Father is God....I proclaim that The Father is God, The Son is God, The Holy Ghost is God...
If you deny any of them as being God then you deny the God Christians have worshipped since the church was born.

I know in acts it says to baptise in the name of Jesus, but in Matthew 28:19 Jesus own words in red says,
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
 I don't know about your bible, but mine capitalizes every name for God....Father, Son, Holy Ghost.


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## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> And He sits next to God on the throne.  Right?



He did give ole Stephen a standing ovation if you remember..{ that makes me want to shout } 
Acts 8:55 But he being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,


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## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> He is our Lord, our Savior, the slain Lamb, our mediator, and God?
> How is Jesus able to do that?
> How does He mediate between us and God if He is God already?



Got carried away, now I'll answer the second part.

God The Father made he11 for satan, man, doing the works of satan earned their way to be with satan in he11. God the Son or Gods Grace two of the same made a way that us men deserving of he11 could obtain heaven. All we have to do is believe Jesus is God, and when God the Holy Spirit beckons...we answer yes, I do! and our souls are reserved in heaven written in the Lambs book of life until that great day... The Son opens the book and if your name is there you may enter in, if not you will be condemned and you will bow down and amen your own condemnation.
 The three are one...with different functions but one God.


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## barryl

Like Ronny T said, Jesus was tempted. He also got tired, had to eat because he got hungry,drank because he got thirsty. Plainly because of his Dual Nature, God and Man. About this oneness cult, check out the Law of Thermodynamics 3,3,3,3. As the old timers say, 3 in 1,1 in 3 and the 1 in the middle Died for ME !!


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> John 1:1 Proves Jesus was with God in the beginning..and it proves Jesus is God...and in the beginning there was only God..and he said "Let us make man in our image"  I don't know how you can twist that around to change what it means. God is they, and they are The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost.
> 
> Jesus is "The way" "The truth" "The Door" "The Great I am" " The Word" but most of all he is God



How could Jesus be with God from the beginning if he was God?
Do you believe in Oneness? Oneness makes more since than the Trinity. Why didn't Jesus just flat out say "I am God not his son." 
Trinity & Oneness are both attempts of man trying to justify  the  "there is only one God". I can't explain it either but and neither can you. There are just as many verses about Jesus not being God the Father as others. Jesus said the Father is greater than I. Jesus said he didn't know when he would be back to the Earth, only the Father knew that.

I'm so much like my father that you could say, if you've seen me you have seen my father.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> How could Jesus be with God from the beginning if he was God?
> Do you believe in Oneness? Oneness makes more since than the Trinity. Why didn't Jesus just flat out say "I am God not his son."
> Trinity & Oneness are both attempts of man trying to justify  the  "there is only one God". I can't explain it either but and neither can you. There are just as many verses about Jesus not being God the Father as others. Jesus said the Father is greater than I. Jesus said he didn't know when he would be back to the Earth, only the Father knew that.
> 
> I'm so much like my father that you could say, if you've seen me you have seen my father.



How can I give you worldly answers to heavenly questions? You must call on the Holy Spirit to answer these things for you.Literal interpretations limit your knowledge of God.
John 3:3-4
 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily,verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mothers womb, and be born?
    Just an example of man thinking worldly about spiritual things.


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## 1gr8bldr

hobbs27 said:


> Got carried away, now I'll answer the second part.
> 
> God The Father made he11 for satan, man, doing the works of satan earned their way to be with satan in he11. God the Son or Gods Grace two of the same made a way that us men deserving of he11 could obtain heaven.* All we have to do is believe Jesus is God,* and when God the Holy Spirit beckons...we answer yes, I do! and our souls are reserved in heaven written in the Lambs book of life until that great day... The Son opens the book and if your name is there you may enter in, if not you will be condemned and you will bow down and amen your own condemnation.
> The three are one...with different functions but one God.


Mercy, How far away doctrines have taken people. You got a verse for that? It don't say "unless you confess Jesus is God and believe in your heart that he raised himself..." What does it say? "Unless you believe Jesus is Lord [master] and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead". The rest of the context declares that he is the Messiah.


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## Ronnie T

1gr8bldr said:


> Mercy, How far away doctrines have taken people. You got a verse for that? It don't say "unless you confess Jesus is God and believe in your heart that he raised himself..." What does it say? "Unless you believe Jesus is Lord [master] and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead". The rest of the context declares that he is the Messiah.


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## Israel

Love has power to dissolve boundaries, break down walls, lay waste our defenses.
Could it be perfect love removes them all completely?

If we are still afraid that losing ourselves has bad consequences, perhaps we are viewing something from the outside that can only be understood from the inside?


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## hobbs27

1gr8bldr said:


> Mercy, How far away doctrines have taken people. You got a verse for that? It don't say "unless you confess Jesus is God and believe in your heart that he raised himself..." What does it say? "Unless you believe Jesus is Lord [master] and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead". The rest of the context declares that he is the Messiah.



Isaiah 9:6
 For unto us a child is born,unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful,Counselor, The Mighty God,The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


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## 1gr8bldr

We reserve the use of "God" for God Almighty. But it has not always been this way. Many were called God in the OT. In the NT, this is verified by "the god of this world has blinded the minds...". God's name is YHWH. This is the name that they did not want to use from fear of using it in unworthy manner. They would not even write it on a piece of paper for fear it might get thrown in the trash. So they often used other words. But they did not reserve the word "God" for only God Almighty. That is our custom, not theirs.


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## hobbs27

1gr8bldr said:


> We reserve the use of "God" for God Almighty. But it has not always been this way. Many were called God in the OT. In the NT, this is verified by "the god of this world has blinded the minds...". God's name is YHWH. This is the name that they did not want to use from fear of using it in unworthy manner. They would not even write it on a piece of paper for fear it might get thrown in the trash. So they often used other words. But they did not reserve the word "God" for only God Almighty. That is our custom, not theirs.



Here's the Greek definition of Lord since you want to differentiate Lord and God.

Original Word Word Origin 
kurioß from kuros (supremacy) 
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry 
Kurios 3:1039,486 
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech 
koo'-ree-os    Noun Masculine  

 Definition 
he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord 
the possessor and disposer of a thing 
the owner; one who has control of the person, the master 
in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor 
is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master 
this title is given to: God, the Messiah


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## formula1

*Re:*

The Whole of John 17 tells us who Jesus is and what His relationship with God and what He (Jesus) desires for us to become.  Below is just a piece of it.

John 17
17 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3  And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Can a mere man be glorified with God before the world began?

Even more detailed is the following:

Collosians 1
15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Is there any man that is the agent of creation and the very perfect image of an invisible God? Is there any man in which all the fullness of God dwells?

1 Timothy 1
16 But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life. 17 To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

I would say the Apostle Paul (A Jew of Jews) knew exactly who Jesus is!

Phillipians 2
5  Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6  who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9  Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Hebrews 7
26 For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. 27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. 28 For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.

Finally I will contend that there is nothing special about me or my scriptual wisdom or knowledge, but I am wise enough to know that God and God alone has the power and authority to forgive sins and grant me access into His wonderful Kingdom. He did that through the agent He created for this purpose before the foundation of this world (Christ Jesus), who took the form of a servant, bled, died, and lives, and became high priest for my iniquity.  I for one will not relegate Him to a status of a man, for I cannot receive from man what only God can give and I cannot lower His status to anything less than the LORD God, who is the very agent of creation spoken of in Genesis 2:4. I will not make Jesus less than He is as my own hope for salvation resides in His Truth. Others might think they can do so! Please be careful and be sure! No one can afford to get this wrong!

Father in Heaven, Grant unto those who read this the wisdom to hear with Spirit ears and  eyes to see Your wonderful image revealed to us in Christ Jesus!  In your Holy name! Amen!

God Bless!


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Got carried away, now I'll answer the second part.
> 
> All we have to do is believe Jesus is God, QUOTE]
> 
> What if I believe Jesus was with God from the beginning, he is the Son of God, and he died for my sins.
> I would assume you are not saying  i'm not a Christian by your statement. I can't find anything in the Bible either that says you have to believe Jesus is God.
> Most Christians do believe in the Trinity or Oneness. Some Christians believe Mary was divine, but I still can't find it in the Bible where it says you have to believe in those things to get to Heaven.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> hobbs27 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Got carried away, now I'll answer the second part.
> 
> All we have to do is believe Jesus is God, QUOTE]
> 
> What if I believe Jesus was with God from the beginning, he is the Son of God, and he died for my sins.
> I would assume you are not saying  i'm not a Christian by your statement. I can't find anything in the Bible either that says you have to believe Jesus is God.
> Most Christians do believe in the Trinity or Oneness. Some Christians believe Mary was divine, but I still can't find it in the Bible where it says you have to believe in those things to get to Heaven.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is in reference to John 3:16....Also in Acts when they realized( or believed in ) Jesus being Christ ( or God ) ....they were troubled ( under conviction by the HS), I don't know how many went on to repent and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord ( God the Messiah) , but there were many.
Click to expand...


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## gtparts

I sure haven't read the entire thread, but we tend to think about things from a temporal perspective and, I think that trips us up when we try to "blend" the spiritual with the temporal. Let's face it, some things can both be true with out being reconcilable by the human mind.

Some of the issues that come to my mind, based on earlier posts:

Is "being one" a matter of being joined in a physical sense (conjoined), a platonic-physical sense, a temporal-mental sense, or a spiritual sense?

As Israel mentioned, can we be married, being made "one", and still be unique in and of ourselves?

God created us uniquely individual, yet He would have us joined in a way that makes our physical/temporal uniqueness subordinate to our spiritual unity with Him and with others. 

In a similar fashion, the Jesus that walked the earth in human flesh, having set aside the glories of heaven, exhibited a perfect unity with the Father and accepted a specific role and lived it so that we too could live in that same unity, both in this life and in eternity.

Another issue is whether we are really talking about a chair or a throne in heaven. How can we know whether the throne is a chair for a single occupant or a bench? And, if in heaven, is it a physical piece of furniture or a metaphor for the preeminent position held by God (in all the ways He has expressed Himself)?  

Rhetorical as these questions are, does anyone here really expect to fully resolve these questions this side of heaven? Really?

Quite frankly, I think the Scripture that F1 referenced in post #59 satisfies all I really need to know about this particular thread, even if I can't get my mind wrapped around it all.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Artfuldodger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is in reference to John 3:16....Also in Acts when they realized( or believed in ) Jesus being Christ ( or God ) ....they were troubled ( under conviction by the HS), I don't know how many went on to repent and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord ( God the Messiah) , but there were many.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When Jesus died he gave up his spirit/ghost. How do you reconcile Jesus having his own spirit? This spirit is not the Holy Spirit of God because he commended, entrusted, commited his spirit to God when he died.
> Luke 23:46
> And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
Click to expand...


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## Ronnie T

formula1 said:


> The Whole of John 17 tells us who Jesus is and what His relationship with God and what He (Jesus) desires for us to become.  Below is just a piece of it.
> 
> John 17
> 17 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3  And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
> 
> Can a mere man be glorified with God before the world began?
> 
> Even more detailed is the following:
> 
> Collosians 1
> 15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
> 
> Is there any man that is the agent of creation and the very perfect image of an invisible God? Is there any man in with all the fullness of God dwells?
> 
> 1 Timothy 1
> 16 But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life. 17 To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
> 
> I would say the Apostle Paul (A Jew of Jews) knew exactly who Jesus is!
> 
> Phillipians 2
> 5  Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6  who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9  Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
> 
> Hebrews 7
> 26 For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. 27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. 28 For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.
> 
> Finally I will contend that there is nothing special about me or my scriptual wisdom or knowledge, but I am wise enough to know that God and God alone has the power and authority to forgive sins and grant me access into His wonderful Kingdom. He did that through the agent He created for this purpose before the foundation of this world (Christ Jesus), who took the form of a servant, bleed, died, and lives, and became high priest for my iniquity.  I for one will not relegate Him to a status of a man, for I cannot receive from man what only God can give and I cannot lower His status to anything less than the LORD God, who is the very agent of creation spoken of in Genesis 2:4. I will not make Jesus less than He is as my own hope for salvation resides in His Truth. Others might think they can do so! Please be careful and be sure! No one can afford to get this wrong!
> 
> Father in Heaven, Grant unto those who read this the wisdom to hear with Spirit ears and  eyes to see Your wonderful image revealed to us in Christ Jesus!  In your Holy name! Amen!
> 
> God Bless!




Yeaaaaaaaaaaaa, scripture text.
That's it right there.


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## Artfuldodger

Jesus wasn't born with the Holy Spirit. He had to wait until he was baptised.
Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


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## 1gr8bldr

hobbs27 said:


> Here's the Greek definition of Lord since you want to differentiate Lord and God.
> 
> Original Word Word Origin
> kurioß from kuros (supremacy)
> Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
> Kurios 3:1039,486
> Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
> koo'-ree-os    Noun Masculine
> 
> Definition
> he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
> the possessor and disposer of a thing
> the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
> in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
> is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master
> this title is given to: God, the Messiah


Mercy, Did not Sarah call Abraham Lord. Look up the use of "master" everywhere you can find it in the NT. Half the time they render it Lord and half the time master, but it is the same greek word. Also, "The Lord said to my Lord" Those are different greek words translated the same. What a mess our biased translators have made.


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## 1gr8bldr

hobbs27 said:


> Artfuldodger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is in reference to John 3:16....Also in Acts when they realized( or believed in ) Jesus being Christ (* or God *) ....they were troubled ( under conviction by the HS), I don't know how many went on to repent and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord ( God the Messiah) , but there were many.
> 
> 
> 
> Where do you get such an idea. Acts is clear, it never implies anything other than he was a man. Acts 2:22,Acts 3:22, Acts 4:26b, Acts 10:38,Acts 17:31, 25:19 Mercy, Only through trinitarian glasses
Click to expand...


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## 1gr8bldr

formula1 said:


> The Whole of John 17 tells us who Jesus is and what His relationship with God and what He (Jesus) desires for us to become.  Below is just a piece of it.
> 
> John 17
> 17 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3  And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
> 
> Can a mere man be glorified with God before the world began?
> 
> Even more detailed is the following:
> 
> Collosians 1
> 15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
> 
> Is there any man that is the agent of creation and the very perfect image of an invisible God? Is there any man in which all the fullness of God dwells?
> 
> 1 Timothy 1
> 16 But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life. 17 To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
> 
> I would say the Apostle Paul (A Jew of Jews) knew exactly who Jesus is!
> 
> Phillipians 2
> 5  Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6  who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9  Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
> 
> Hebrews 7
> 26 For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. 27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. 28 For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.
> 
> Finally I will contend that there is nothing special about me or my scriptual wisdom or knowledge, but I am wise enough to know that God and God alone has the power and authority to forgive sins and grant me access into His wonderful Kingdom. He did that through the agent He created for this purpose before the foundation of this world (Christ Jesus), who took the form of a servant, bled, died, and lives, and became high priest for my iniquity.  I for one will not relegate Him to a status of a man, for I cannot receive from man what only God can give and I cannot lower His status to anything less than the LORD God, who is the very agent of creation spoken of in Genesis 2:4. I will not make Jesus less than He is as my own hope for salvation resides in His Truth. Others might think they can do so! Please be careful and be sure! No one can afford to get this wrong!
> 
> Father in Heaven, Grant unto those who read this the wisdom to hear with Spirit ears and  eyes to see Your wonderful image revealed to us in Christ Jesus!  In your Holy name! Amen!
> 
> God Bless!


Iwill work on these one at a time. 1Tim 1:16. This is a change of subject. Notice "the invisiable God". This rules out Jesus. We are told often that God is invisiable, but Jesus is never referred to as that. So, this is not about Jesus.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

formula1 said:


> The Whole of John 17 tells us who Jesus is and what His relationship with God and what He (Jesus) desires for us to become.  Below is just a piece of it.
> 
> John 17
> 17 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3  And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
> 
> Can a mere man be glorified with God before the world began?
> 
> Even more detailed is the following:
> 
> Collosians 1
> 15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
> 
> Is there any man that is the agent of creation and the very perfect image of an invisible God? Is there any man in which all the fullness of God dwells?
> 
> 1 Timothy 1
> 16 But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life. 17 To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
> 
> I would say the Apostle Paul (A Jew of Jews) knew exactly who Jesus is!
> 
> Phillipians 2
> 5  Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6  who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9  Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
> 
> Hebrews 7
> 26 For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. 27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. 28 For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.
> 
> Finally I will contend that there is nothing special about me or my scriptual wisdom or knowledge, but I am wise enough to know that God and God alone has the power and authority to forgive sins and grant me access into His wonderful Kingdom. He did that through the agent He created for this purpose before the foundation of this world (Christ Jesus), who took the form of a servant, bled, died, and lives, and became high priest for my iniquity.  I for one will not relegate Him to a status of a man, for I cannot receive from man what only God can give and I cannot lower His status to anything less than the LORD God, who is the very agent of creation spoken of in Genesis 2:4. I will not make Jesus less than He is as my own hope for salvation resides in His Truth. Others might think they can do so! Please be careful and be sure! No one can afford to get this wrong!
> 
> Father in Heaven, Grant unto those who read this the wisdom to hear with Spirit ears and  eyes to see Your wonderful image revealed to us in Christ Jesus!  In your Holy name! Amen!
> 
> God Bless!


John 17:5, Jesus is not Adam, this I know, but he was restored to what Adam lost. The word Adam means "man" or mankind. Jesus is speaking as "the second Adam". Mankind restored to that heavenly relationship, the glory that Adam lost, now regained to us


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## 1gr8bldr

They just get easier, but got other things to do at the momment but I will address the others soon


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## Michael F. Gray

If you could inquire of the woman who had an issue of blood for many years, and was HEALED when she touched the hem of his garment, I suspect she would disagree with about Jesus Christ being limited. As difficult as it may be for our finite brains to comprehend, HE was all man, and all GOD. I didn't trust my Salvation to a limited Savior.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

formula1 said:


> The Whole of John 17 tells us who Jesus is and what His relationship with God and what He (Jesus) desires for us to become.  Below is just a piece of it.
> 
> John 17
> 17 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3  And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
> 
> Can a mere man be glorified with God before the world began?
> 
> Even more detailed is the following:
> 
> Collosians 1
> 15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
> 
> Is there any man that is the agent of creation and the very perfect image of an invisible God? Is there any man in which all the fullness of God dwells?
> 
> 1 Timothy 1
> 16 But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life. 17 To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
> 
> I would say the Apostle Paul (A Jew of Jews) knew exactly who Jesus is!
> 
> Phillipians 2
> 5  Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6  who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9  Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
> 
> Hebrews 7
> 26 For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. 27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. 28 For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.
> 
> Finally I will contend that there is nothing special about me or my scriptual wisdom or knowledge, but I am wise enough to know that God and God alone has the power and authority to forgive sins and grant me access into His wonderful Kingdom. He did that through the agent He created for this purpose before the foundation of this world (Christ Jesus), who took the form of a servant, bled, died, and lives, and became high priest for my iniquity.  I for one will not relegate Him to a status of a man, for I cannot receive from man what only God can give and I cannot lower His status to anything less than the LORD God, who is the very agent of creation spoken of in Genesis 2:4. I will not make Jesus less than He is as my own hope for salvation resides in His Truth. Others might think they can do so! Please be careful and be sure! No one can afford to get this wrong!
> 
> Father in Heaven, Grant unto those who read this the wisdom to hear with Spirit ears and  eyes to see Your wonderful image revealed to us in Christ Jesus!  In your Holy name! Amen!
> 
> God Bless!


Col "He is the image...." Am I the image of myself? Or am I the exact representation of my being. Are we not supposed to be the image, representation of Jesus, that we might in a perfect world say that if you have seen me you have seen Jesus. Since I am to be his representative. Now, Was Jesus visiable? Yes or no. Of course he was so how could he be God? More, the firstborn of creation. This opposes trin doctrine because it means that Jesus had a beginning. It does not say that he is the creator. It says he is the firstborn. This opposes trin doctrine that says Jesus created everything. Now for the corruptions of the verse from biased translators. vs 16 "For by him...." This word is not by. It is "in". The same exact greek word used in "created IN Christ Jesus to do good works" The corrupted "by" implies creator. It should have been "in". Look at all the other uses and you will wonder why they would change how they render it. He was given authority over everything. Everything was reconciled through him. Even the world. "The whole creation has been groaning as in childbirth...."vs 20 reconcile all things, on earth and in heaven. This is the correct use of "through". It is not about creating all things. It is about reconciling all things. If he is the firstborn from the dead, then this means that Jesus was "born again". Trins hate that. Because it reveals he was a man. Why would God give all his fullness to God, especially if they are coequal as trins say? He is not the agent of the original creation. He is the agent of the new creation. We are reconciled, new creations only "through" Jesus. More later


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Michael F. Gray said:


> If you could inquire of the woman who had an issue of blood for many years, and was HEALED when she touched the hem of his garment, I suspect she would disagree with about Jesus Christ being limited. As difficult as it may be for our finite brains to comprehend, HE was all man, and all GOD. I didn't trust my Salvation to a limited Savior.


Does not the bible say something about people being healed by touching Paul's hanky? Does that make him God?


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Jesus was not God. He was a man who overcame this world whom God was pleased with whom he raised from the dead as his firstborn among many brothers. God exalted him to his right hand where he has been given power over everything. He is second only to God alone. Why even Jesus said the Father is greater than I. Trins ignore the plain stated verses and resort to trying to "infer" from scripture what was not the original intent of the writer. The biased translators have magnified the problem by incorrectly translating verses.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

formula1 said:


> The Whole of John 17 tells us who Jesus is and what His relationship with God and what He (Jesus) desires for us to become.  Below is just a piece of it.
> 
> John 17
> 17 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3  And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
> 
> Can a mere man be glorified with God before the world began?
> 
> Even more detailed is the following:
> 
> Collosians 1
> 15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
> 
> Is there any man that is the agent of creation and the very perfect image of an invisible God? Is there any man in which all the fullness of God dwells?
> 
> 1 Timothy 1
> 16 But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life. 17 To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
> 
> I would say the Apostle Paul (A Jew of Jews) knew exactly who Jesus is!
> 
> Phillipians 2
> 5  Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6  who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9  Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
> 
> Hebrews 7
> 26 For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. 27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. 28 For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.
> 
> Finally I will contend that there is nothing special about me or my scriptual wisdom or knowledge, but I am wise enough to know that God and God alone has the power and authority to forgive sins and grant me access into His wonderful Kingdom. He did that through the agent He created for this purpose before the foundation of this world (Christ Jesus), who took the form of a servant, bled, died, and lives, and became high priest for my iniquity.  I for one will not relegate Him to a status of a man, for I cannot receive from man what only God can give and I cannot lower His status to anything less than the LORD God, who is the very agent of creation spoken of in Genesis 2:4. I will not make Jesus less than He is as my own hope for salvation resides in His Truth. Others might think they can do so! Please be careful and be sure! No one can afford to get this wrong!
> 
> Father in Heaven, Grant unto those who read this the wisdom to hear with Spirit ears and  eyes to see Your wonderful image revealed to us in Christ Jesus!  In your Holy name! Amen!
> 
> God Bless!


Phillipians, Jesus is not an idol. But think about this. No one believed that an idol was actually a God but represented a socalled god elsewhere in the spiritual rehlm. Jesus represented his God to the world. As an idol might do. The correct greek rendering of vs 8 is "fashioned". Now think about where you have seen these words before and under what context. "form of" "fashioned", it is in the context of idols. The writer is speaking of Jesus as if he were "the idol of God", not literly but contrasting the two. --Why would God highly exalt his coequal?It does not say"confess that Jesus is God to the glory of himself".The context here is that unlike Eve who wanted to be equal to God, Jesus, as opposed to all the others whom God called to shepherd/serve the people, actually did serve the people. Our ultimate need. He served us to the extent that instead of like the others, he gave up going after all this world had to offer, not milking his status for all it's worth, but served the people rather than like the others, had the people serve themselves. They made themselves "as gods". But not Jesus. Therefore God demonstrated a central character, he exalts those who humble themselves. He sat him at his right hand and gave him a name above all others.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

formula1 said:


> The Whole of John 17 tells us who Jesus is and what His relationship with God and what He (Jesus) desires for us to become.  Below is just a piece of it.
> 
> John 17
> 17 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3  And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
> 
> Can a mere man be glorified with God before the world began?
> 
> Even more detailed is the following:
> 
> Collosians 1
> 15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
> 
> Is there any man that is the agent of creation and the very perfect image of an invisible God? Is there any man in which all the fullness of God dwells?
> 
> 1 Timothy 1
> 16 But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life. 17 To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
> 
> I would say the Apostle Paul (A Jew of Jews) knew exactly who Jesus is!
> 
> Phillipians 2
> 5  Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6  who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9  Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
> 
> Hebrews 7
> 26 For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. 27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. 28 For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.
> 
> Finally I will contend that there is nothing special about me or my scriptual wisdom or knowledge, but I am wise enough to know that God and God alone has the power and authority to forgive sins and grant me access into His wonderful Kingdom. He did that through the agent He created for this purpose before the foundation of this world (Christ Jesus), who took the form of a servant, bled, died, and lives, and became high priest for my iniquity.  I for one will not relegate Him to a status of a man, for I cannot receive from man what only God can give and I cannot lower His status to anything less than the LORD God, who is the very agent of creation spoken of in Genesis 2:4. I will not make Jesus less than He is as my own hope for salvation resides in His Truth. Others might think they can do so! Please be careful and be sure! No one can afford to get this wrong!
> 
> Father in Heaven, Grant unto those who read this the wisdom to hear with Spirit ears and  eyes to see Your wonderful image revealed to us in Christ Jesus!  In your Holy name! Amen!
> 
> God Bless!


I am surprised that you used Hebrews. All this says is that he was without sin. This I agree. Where we will not agree is that trins say he was incapable of sinning because he was God. But we know he "was tempted in all ways just as we are". Not saying that the tempter approached him about all things but the context is that he is able to help us because he himself was tempted.  Notice the last sentence pointed out.m"made perfect.." How could God being perfect, be made perfect?


----------



## 1gr8bldr

formula1 said:


> The Whole of John 17 tells us who Jesus is and what His relationship with God and what He (Jesus) desires for us to become.  Below is just a piece of it.
> 
> John 17
> 17 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3  And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
> 
> Can a mere man be glorified with God before the world began?
> 
> Even more detailed is the following:
> 
> Collosians 1
> 15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
> 
> Is there any man that is the agent of creation and the very perfect image of an invisible God? Is there any man in which all the fullness of God dwells?
> 
> 1 Timothy 1
> 16 But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life. 17 To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
> 
> I would say the Apostle Paul (A Jew of Jews) knew exactly who Jesus is!
> 
> Phillipians 2
> 5  Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6  who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9  Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
> 
> Hebrews 7
> 26 For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. 27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. 28 For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.
> 
> Finally I will contend that there is nothing special about me or my scriptual wisdom or knowledge, but I am wise enough to know that God and God alone has the power and authority to forgive sins and grant me access into His wonderful Kingdom. He did that through *the agent He created *for this purpose before the foundation of this world (Christ Jesus), who took the form of a servant, bled, died, and lives, and became high priest for my iniquity.  I for one will not relegate Him to a status of a man, for I cannot receive from man what only God can give and I cannot lower His status to anything less than the LORD God, who is the very agent of creation spoken of in Genesis 2:4. I will not make Jesus less than He is as my own hope for salvation resides in His Truth. Others might think they can do so! Please be careful and be sure! No one can afford to get this wrong!
> 
> Father in Heaven, Grant unto those who read this the wisdom to hear with Spirit ears and  eyes to see Your wonderful image revealed to us in Christ Jesus!  In your Holy name! Amen!
> 
> God Bless!


If you believe this, your not trinitarian. The nicene council ruled against the "arians". Arius believed that Jesus was God but was created by God.


----------



## centerpin fan

1gr8bldr said:


> Jesus was not God. He was a man who overcame this world whom God was pleased with ...



... but what then was so different about Jesus?  God was pleased with many men.  Why was John the Baptist not elevated to the right hand of God?  Jesus Himself said of John:


_"Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist ..."_

-- Matt 11:11


... but look how John speaks of Jesus:


_"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."_

-- Matt 3:11-12

Does it sound to you like John is talking about a mortal man?  It doesn't sound like that to me.


----------



## centerpin fan

1gr8bldr said:


> If you believe this, your not trinitarian. The nicene council ruled against the "arians". Arius believed that Jesus was God but was created by God.



I agree with that.


----------



## hobbs27

1gr8bldr said:


> Jesus was not God. He was a man who overcame this world whom God was pleased with .



Just for fun, I got to ask...If you truly believe this, Do you not believe in the virgin birth?


----------



## hobbs27

1gr8bldr said:


> Where do you get such an idea. Acts is clear, it never implies anything other than he was a man. Acts 2:22,Acts 3:22, Acts 4:26b, Acts 10:38,Acts 17:31, 25:19 Mercy, Only through trinitarian glasses



You have your blinders on obviously! Yes they say this man but continue on to say in 36 verse chapter 2 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

I've laid out my case on this subject , I've provided tons of scripture to back it, and now it' s up to whoever reads to ask the Holy Spirit to guide them in the way that is right...I know Jesus is God and he died for me, that I may have eternal life, and He lives as King of Kings and Lord of Lords!


----------



## 1gr8bldr

centerpin fan said:


> ...* but what then was so different about Jesus?*  God was pleased with many men.  Why was John the Baptist not elevated to the right hand of God?  Jesus Himself said of John:
> 
> 
> _"Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist ..."_
> 
> -- Matt 11:11
> 
> 
> ... but look how John speaks of Jesus:
> 
> 
> _"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
> 
> Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."_
> 
> -- Matt 3:11-12
> 
> Does it sound to you like John is talking about a mortal man?  It doesn't sound like that to me.


He was The one spoken of from the beginning, all through the OT. The one who was expected/prophesied about. He was our first servant king. He overcame the power of our nature and was without sin. He bravely by faith endured the cross. He had awsome faith that if he did this that he would be raised just as the scriptures declared. He was raised, the firstborn from the dead. Death no longer can bind him. He in humility, said about all he could to make sure that no one thought that he was taking credit for anything that God might do through him. Unlike Moses who said "must I bring water from this rock". He is our attoning sacrifice because he is God's firstborn. Now he sits at his Father's side, his God and my God, where he mediates for his brothers when they sin. He is coming back to rule and then at some time to hand all things back over to the Father [1 Cor 15:25-28 most denied scripture of trins]. He has been given a name above all others. God has given all authority to him. That is what comes to mind. Not God, but second only to God, even above the angels


----------



## hobbs27

1gr8bldr said:


> Mercy, Did not Sarah call Abraham Lord. Look up the use of "master" everywhere you can find it in the NT. Half the time they render it Lord and half the time master, but it is the same greek word. Also, "The Lord said to my Lord" Those are different greek words translated the same. What a mess our biased translators have made.



The OT used the Hebrew language, and the Hebrew for Lord translated into English has several meanings, here they are along with the Greek
 Lord,
Adown - sovereign, ie controller
Adonay - the Lord
Gbiyr - master
Yahh - Jehovah, self existent or Eternal
Yhovah - Jehovah, self existent
Mare - master
Rab - great
Shaliysh - officer of the third rank
Despotes - absolute ruler
Kurieuo - to rule, be master of
Kurios - supreme controller
Rhabbonni- my master
 I know, I know....Those translaters did a terrible job.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

hobbs27 said:


> You have your blinders on obviously! Yes they say this man but continue on to say in 36 verse chapter 2 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
> 
> I've laid out my case on this subject , I've provided tons of scripture to back it, and now it' s up to whoever reads to ask the Holy Spirit to guide them in the way that is right...I know Jesus is God and he died for me, that I may have eternal life, and He lives as King of Kings and Lord of Lords!


What you have is an incorrect definition of Lord. God has made him master, not God has made him God. You have not addressed anything I have presented. I have addressed everything you have presented. God did not die for anybody. Have you not seen the verse that says God cannot die? Your belief system claims he raised himself. If so then he was not dead and your still in your sins. I serve a Jesus who died and was raised by his Father. Dead. He was the "firstborn" from the dead. Death no longer has hold on him like it did ole Zack. Why, because "he was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit. What was that Spirit, See Acts 2 :33 "He received the promised Holy Spirit..." Now why would God the Son have need of receiving his coequal third person of the trinity that he is part of?


----------



## Artfuldodger

I believe Jesus  is the Son of God, born of a virgin, and died for our sins. He is the mediator between us and God. There is no other way to get to God without going through Jesus. Jesus doesn't know when he is coming back to earth, God does. 
He has to have some diety being the Son of God to die for our sins. No ordinary man could die for our sins. No angel(Michael) could die for our sins.
Do I have it all figured out: NO!
John 14:1-7 
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going” Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I believe Jesus  is the Son of God, born of a virgin, and died for our sins. He is the mediator between us and God. There is no other way to get to God without going through Jesus. Jesus doesn't know when he is coming back to earth, God does.
> He has to have some diety being the Son of God to die for our sins. No ordinary man could die for our sins. No angel(Michael) could die for our sins.
> Do I have it all figured out: NO!
> John 14:1-7


God Bless you! No ordinary man can be born of a virgin!


----------



## Artfuldodger

1gr8bldr;   How do you explain that Jesus was with God before the Earth was created?


----------



## 1gr8bldr

hobbs27 said:


> The OT used the Hebrew language, and the Hebrew for Lord translated into English has several meanings, here they are along with the Greek
> Lord,
> Adown - sovereign, ie controller
> Adonay - the Lord
> Gbiyr - master
> Yahh - Jehovah, self existent or Eternal
> Yhovah - Jehovah, self existent
> Mare - master
> Rab - great
> Shaliysh - officer of the third rank
> Despotes - absolute ruler
> Kurieuo - to rule, be master of
> Kurios - supreme controller
> Rhabbonni- my master
> I know, I know....Those translaters did a terrible job.


Like I said, look up where you see master used in the NT. What greek word do you see? Now look at most all the uses of Lord. They are the same. Now why would they translate it one way then another? with the same greek word. Unless one does his homework, he is trapped in the translators own belief system. Same thing with what I mentioned earlier. The "in" incorrectly translated as "by" In Eph we see it used correctly. For you are created "in" Christ Jesus, to do good works which God prepared in advance..." Can you see that here they could not try to pull of this same corruption. Because of context. Yet later they do try in Collosians.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Artfuldodger said:


> 1gr8bldr;   How do you explain that Jesus was with God before the Earth was created?


Are you getting that idea from John 1:1 or from those places that say he is from heaven? Lets talk about the from. The from is from the thought "born from above" the greek says "born from above" where as the NIV and most others say "born again" [John 3}. Do you see my point? He is not from heaven as if he were there before, he says he is "born from above" Also we see the religious saying "by what authority are you doing these things" He ask them about John "From heaven or from earth, I think that is right,. So we see this is by what "authority". He came in his Fathers name just as Moses came in God's name. Hope that helps. This usually leads to a couple more questions about this.


----------



## hummerpoo

Israel said:


> Love has power to dissolve boundaries, break down walls, lay waste our defenses.
> Could it be perfect love removes them all completely?
> 
> If we are still afraid that losing ourselves has bad consequences, perhaps we are viewing something from the outside that can only be understood from the inside?



I have not been tempted to join this conversation, having never achieved agreement with myself on the subject, but you have touched on something that I have sometimes found plausible; that being that the relationship among the Deity is one of perfect love.

There is much more, but speaking of those who believe through the word of those whom the Father gave to Jesus, Jesus prays to the Father, (John 17) 21.  that they may all be one; even as You, Father, {are} in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
 22.  "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;
 23.  I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.

I can only cry..MERCY!


----------



## Artfuldodger

1 Corinthians 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Is this when Jesus gives up his commission as mediator and hands all authority over to God?


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Artfuldodger said:


> I believe Jesus  is the Son of God, born of a virgin, and died for our sins. He is the mediator between us and God. There is no other way to get to God without going through Jesus. Jesus doesn't know when he is coming back to earth, God does.
> He has to have some diety being the Son of God to die for our sins. No ordinary man could die for our sins. No angel(Michael) could die for our sins.
> Do I have it all figured out: NO!
> John 14:1-7
> “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going” Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."


God set up the OT rituals and customs as picturistic for us to draw from. OT custom was that the firstborn son was given as the "attoning sacrifice" for the remainder of the family. Meaning that the second or third son did not have to do this. Jesus is the "firstborn" son of God [at his baptismal]. He is no ordinary man. He is the firstborn of God. He is the sacrifice for all his brothers, the family of God. The first to receive his Spirit that came to dwell. Many times the Spirit came upon people, but never to dwell. Jesus was the temple. It was Davids son who was supposede to build the temple, figuretively Solomon. Jesus was that temple. That is why he was so special. He was without sin, that is a fullfilled prophesy, but what makes him the attoning sacrifice is that he is God's firstborn


----------



## hobbs27

1gr8bldr said:


> What you have is an incorrect definition of Lord. God has made him master, not God has made him God. You have not addressed anything I have presented.



Would it do any good? If you believe Jesus was an ordinary man, we're not even in the same Universe of discussion.Im a Christian, I believe Jesus was born of a virgin and was all man and all God.He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and He is mine.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Artfuldodger said:


> 1 Corinthians 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
> 
> Is this when Jesus gives up his commission as mediator and hands all authority over to God?


I guess so, not sure, something to do with having put everything under his feet


----------



## Artfuldodger

1gr8bldr said:


> Are you getting that idea from John 1:1 or from those places that say he is from heaven? Lets talk about the from. The from is from the thought "born from above" the greek says "born from above" where as the NIV and most others say "born again" [John 3}. Do you see my point? He is not from heaven as if he were there before, he says he is "born from above" Also we see the religious saying "by what authority are you doing these things" He ask them about John "From heaven or from earth, I think that is right,. So we see this is by what "authority". He came in his Fathers name just as Moses came in God's name. Hope that helps. This usually leads to a couple more questions about this.



I wasn't talking about the down from Heaven verses. Aren't there other verses about Jesus being with God before the Earth was created?

Could you also answer Hobbs27 question: Do you believe Jesus was born of a virgin mother?


----------



## 1gr8bldr

hobbs27 said:


> Would it do any good? If you believe Jesus was an ordinary man, we're not even in the same Universe of discussion.Im a Christian, I believe Jesus was born of a virgin and was all man and all God.He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and He is mine.


 Some are not sure what they believe about the issue. We both "air out" the arguments so that people might observe and make educated decissions. Not because their mother or Grandmother told them so, but because they know the issues. Not debating the person, just the issues. This debate has gone on since early NT times. I don't think we will settle the issue anytime before he returns. I can respect anyone's position, as long as it was built on a careful evaluation. Many just believe what the preacher says, this is what concerns me


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Artfuldodger said:


> I wasn't talking about the down from Heaven verses. Aren't there other verses about Jesus being with God before the Earth was created?
> 
> Could you also answer Hobbs27 question: Do you believe Jesus was born of a virgin mother?


There is one or two that have something like that. One of which has the word "returning" added. Another similiar. I should look these up instead of shooting from the hip. But the one is Jesus speaking as the "second Adam". Not that he is Adam, but that he is speaking as if he were.Reason being that now all those of the New Creation have a "new Adam". What I mean by that is that his nature is now in us. No longer Adam's nature. We put that one to death because it was walking death because of the curse "you will surely die"


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Artfuldodger said:


> I wasn't talking about the down from Heaven verses. Aren't there other verses about Jesus being with God before the Earth was created?
> 
> Could you also answer Hobbs27 question: Do you believe Jesus was born of a virgin mother?


Gotta give it up for the night. I'll pick back up tomorrow


----------



## Artfuldodger

1gr8bldr said:


> God set up the OT rituals and customs as picturistic for us to draw from. OT custom was that the firstborn son was given as the "attoning sacrifice" for the remainder of the family. Meaning that the second or third son did not have to do this. Jesus is the "firstborn" son of God [at his baptismal]. He is no ordinary man. He is the firstborn of God. He is the sacrifice for all his brothers, the family of God. The first to receive his Spirit that came to dwell. Many times the Spirit came upon people, but never to dwell. Jesus was the temple. It was Davids son who was supposede to build the temple, figuretively Solomon. Jesus was that temple. That is why he was so special. He was without sin, that is a fullfilled prophesy, but what makes him the attoning sacrifice is that he is God's firstborn


I can see the logic in this knowing the importance of the firstborn son in OT culture. How did God come to pick Jesus? Was he forordained or did God choose him because he had not sinned?


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## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> I have not been tempted to join this conversation, having never achieved agreement with myself on the subject, but you have touched on something that I have sometimes found plausible; that being that the relationship among the Deity is one of perfect love.
> 
> There is much more, but speaking of those who believe through the word of those whom the Father gave to Jesus, Jesus prays to the Father, (John 17) 21.  that they may all be one; even as You, Father, {are} in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
> 22.  "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;
> 23.  I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.
> 
> I can only cry..MERCY!



Love & unity: the key that unites God, Jesus(no matter how you explain him), and us is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit of God which is God's spirit, not another entity. God doesn't need another entity.


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## 1gr8bldr

Artfuldodger said:


> I can see the logic in this knowing the importance of the firstborn son in OT culture. How did God come to pick Jesus? Was he forordained or did God choose him because he had not sinned?


He was foreordained. He was "before". Let me explain. Issac is said to be Abrahams firstborn. Yet we know that it was actually Ishmael. Why is this. Because Issac was promised before Ishmael was born.OT saints of faith believed God's promises or word as if it already was, just not yet existing. But existing in word only, as in God said let there be rain. Apply that to Jesus. The word became flesh, or as John says elsewhere, "The life appeared".Promised from the beginning. Another thought. Everything was created in the 7 days. Nothing was created by God "as he went". As mentioned, take rain for example. Created "in word" yet not existing until times set by God. Which in this case was the flood. There was no rain until the flood, yet it was already created in word. Apply that to Jesus


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Could you also answer Hobbs27 question: Do you believe Jesus was born of a virgin mother?



I think he has to go read up on this and find out what he is suppose to say about it. This reminds me of the door to door doctrine dealers that come by ever so often.....well use to, I've been taken off their list....by their choice.


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## formula1

*Re:*

1gr8bldr:

1Tim 1:16 - Your explanation is laughable, completely ignoring the word 'King' and the context of the previous scriptures. 

John 17:5 - You did not address it because you can't.  And read the rest of John 17 as Jesus said it multiple times.  I believe Jesus, not you.

Philipians was put there to describe how Jesus, knowing who He was, chose instead the servant path though He did not have to. He knew His purpose for life in th flesh and lived it out as a clear example. Idols?  You are stretching it a bunch.

Hebrews not only address the sinless Holy nature, but He was made perfect as you have stated.  The question is when was He made perfect, which you chose a natural interpretion. I merely added explanation of this with Colossians 1, by scripture.  You figure it out!

The agent God created was Jesus, totally one with the Father (co-equal) but a different creation of the Father for the Fathers own purpose. That is also clearly described in scriptures provided, yet ignored. It doesn't make me trinitarian or not except in your reasoned world.

You and scripture simply do not agree.  I expected you to respond because I know you don't accept the deity of Christ.  You arguments are additions to scripture, and not scripture itself and they fail miserably. You cannot fail with scripture as it is!  You don't have authority to interpret scripture with natural reasoning for anyone.  That belongs to the Holy Spirit who guides us into all the Truth.   I will continually pray for you that the Spirit might take off the scales from you eyes.  Live and walk and understand by faith! God Bless!


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## hobbs27

1gr8bldr said:


> Some are not sure what they believe about the issue. We both "air out" the arguments so that people might observe and make educated decissions. Not because their mother or Grandmother told them so, but because they know the issues. Not debating the person, just the issues. This debate has gone on since early NT times. I don't think we will settle the issue anytime before he returns. I can respect anyone's position, as long as it was built on a careful evaluation. Many just believe what the preacher says, this is what concerns me



1. Those that are not sure, and even those that are wrong will get their answer when God decides the time is right
2. About airing out the arguments, I know I do this , it's a personality fault, something I have tried to work on.
3. This debate is the one that caused the Jews to scream out, Crucify him! The only thing they could make stick is Jesus claiming to be the Christ or Son of God. He answered to them, "Thou hast said", so if you don't believe Jesus is God, then you believe as the high priests and the scribes that sent Jesus to the cross, or you can play on words and say capitalized Christ or Son of God doesn't mean God, even though the scribes clearly knew Jesus was claiming to be God or they would have not charged him with blasphemy.
4. The book tells us to respect our elders, it also tells us to seek out the old paths. You have authority to question the preached word, and you should also question what mom, or grandma says, but you should hold it to a higher regard. Don't dismiss the knowledge in our elders for their "classroom educations" God teaches the ones that need it most, and when our grandparents and farther back, where surviving many only had God to rely on to get by. I've heard the old timers talk about when they were kids hearing men in the woods crying out to God for rain to wet the fields, I've heard them talk about hearing their moms in the barn crying out to God that he may save all her children. I know of an old time preacher that God called and the man couldn't even read or write, but God made a way.So, yes you can question what they have to offer, but you better not just dismiss it because they didn't meet your standards to an education.
 As formula1 said above, I will pray that God opens your eyes to his Word, and pray for me that the Holy Spirit may show me where I err in understanding.


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## polkhunt

I do not understand why people think that if you do not agree with the trinity then that somehow takes away from the deity of Jesus. Jesus was of God not God and he was sinless.(may have been or not been perfect two different things)  I have always believed in a father a son and a holy spirit but I do not believe they are one in the same, and yes I have read all the scripture that the trinity folks always pull out.


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## 1gr8bldr

hobbs27 said:


> I think he has to go read up on this and find out what he is suppose to say about it. This reminds me of the door to door doctrine dealers that come by ever so often.....well use to, I've been taken off their list....by their choice.


No, I have no need to go read up on anything. My thoughts all come from my own study. Not out of a can. Unitarians as myself, have no teachers. We are all self taught. Most of us are "driven" to search this out. Why? Because I was trinitarian until I turned 40. I searched intently to try to shore up a belief that was falling apart. I knew that comments like"God was born in a manger" or that the HS was a third person, raised red flags. So I began my search to verify these things. The further I pondered the more that began to crumble. Walking away from all that I ever knew was very hard. But believe me, I get nothing from anyone. I shoot from the hip. We have only addressed about half of the socalled trin proof text, of which I already know exactly what I would say. I will address the virgin issue sometime today. It will not be accepted for other reasons.


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## formula1

*Re:*



hobbs27 said:


> 3. This debate is the one that caused the Jews to scream out, Crucify him! The only thing they could make stick is Jesus claiming to be the Christ or Son of God. He answered to them, "Thou hast said", so if you don't believe Jesus is God, then you believe as the high priests and the scribes that sent Jesus to the cross, or you can play on words and say capitalized Christ or Son of God doesn't mean God, even though the scribes clearly knew Jesus was claiming to be God or they would have not charged him with blasphemy.



Thank you!  God spoke to me during the night and reminded me of the very same thing and now I don't have to write it as you have taken care of it for me.

The Holy Spirit is a wonderful teacher, one that you can count on for Truth!  God Bless!


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## 1gr8bldr

The virgin issue; Luke tells us that many have already written accounts about Jesus and that he too decided to do the same. He tells us that he has investigated the issue. He goes into so very deep detail. Take Mary's song for example. How could he possible have investigated this kind of detail? You see Luke was never an eyewitness of anything. He was a disciple of Paul. Paul was ot an eyewitness. What Luke is doing is "embellishing" the account. But everyone will say that Luke is inspired. I say no. Luke's account was chosen from many, after being written 60+ years after the facts, acquired by oral passing, and that from non eyewitnesses, his account was chosen 200 years later to be included in the canon. It was among hundreds of similar writings. Chosen by uninspired men.  Are we to assume that just because men chose it 200 years later that God inspired it and not those rejected. That is only part of the issue. As seen in some of my other threads, Luke copied from Mark. Luke must have aquired a copy of Mark yet wanted to be known in his region or circle of influence. So rather than recirlulate Mark's, he decided to make one like it in his own name. He begin to copy. Notice that each story other than the virgin birth goes in almost perfect order. Except the "missing block" . For those that don't know what I am refering to, Lukes copy of Mark had a missing section. He copied right over it without notice. Incorrectly connecting one topic with another. He also gave himself away through many other areas called "editorial fatigue". Also, Mark misquotes some of his OT referrences, Luke has the same. I can point out all this if anyone is interested, in great detail. What we have here is an overzealous attempt to make Jesus fit the expectations of the scripture. Matthew was overzealous in his attempt. He quotes 14-14-14 generations, assuming that since God wrapped it up in this neat little package that it must somehow prove Jesus. But Matthew was wrong. He left out 3 generations so his 14-14-14 is a bust. Luke embellished the issue to create the virgin account. Joseph was Jesus father, within the bounds of marriage, Jesus being the firstborn of that union. He became the Son of God at his baptismal when the HS desended on him and remained. Luke would have had no need to copy anybody if he were inspired of God. One must conclude that this is a man made writing, with things written that he had no way of knowing, of which he had no buisness implying that he did.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Artfuldodger said:


> I wasn't talking about the down from Heaven verses. Aren't there other verses about Jesus being with God before the Earth was created?
> 
> Could you also answer Hobbs27 question: Do you believe Jesus was born of a virgin mother?


Sorry, I did not catch the second part


----------



## 1gr8bldr

hobbs27 said:


> 1. Those that are not sure, and even those that are wrong will get their answer when God decides the time is right
> 2. About airing out the arguments, I know I do this , it's a personality fault, something I have tried to work on.
> 3. *This debate is the one that caused the Jews to scream out, Crucify him! The only thing they could make stick is Jesus claiming to be the Christ or Son of God. He answered to them, "Thou hast said", so if you don't believe Jesus is God, then you believe as the high priests and the scribes that sent Jesus to the cross, or you can play on words and say capitalized Christ or Son of God doesn't mean God, even though the scribes clearly knew Jesus was claiming to be God or they would have not charged him with blasphemy.*
> 4. The book tells us to respect our elders, it also tells us to seek out the old paths. You have authority to question the preached word, and you should also question what mom, or grandma says, but you should hold it to a higher regard. Don't dismiss the knowledge in our elders for their "classroom educations" God teaches the ones that need it most, and when our grandparents and farther back, where surviving many only had God to rely on to get by. I've heard the old timers talk about when they were kids hearing men in the woods crying out to God for rain to wet the fields, I've heard them talk about hearing their moms in the barn crying out to God that he may save all her children. I know of an old time preacher that God called and the man couldn't even read or write, but God made a way.So, yes you can question what they have to offer, but you better not just dismiss it because they didn't meet your standards to an education.
> As formula1 said above, I will pray that God opens your eyes to his Word, and pray for me that the Holy Spirit may show me where I err in understanding.


We should discuss this issue in another thread sometime, The trial, what he was accused of. When it is broken down, it reveals the truth of the matter. Very interesting discussion


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## gordon 2

I know that this tread is difficult, even painful for some especially that we are all brothers. It plunges our eyes into the light and yet into it a darkness, a dispair and doubt itself.

I am poor. I have not the mind of one remotely trusting in my reading of scripture and not the readings of others. I have not the wealth of mind of Paul.

But let me share with you what I have and perhaps this one and only thing and then perhaps for only a fraction of it I count you all as brothers and sisters in Christ-- My hope is in a settlement on the subject of this tread.

Where do I start? I have noticed that in our minds, in our hearts  in our understanding  of our Lord many start with the Father and in this we are not wrong. It is very natural to do. Even pagans at a distance know in their groanings, in nature the hand of the Father.

In the Son?  Is He our begining? Is Christ our saviour fully formed in our minds and hearts for our reading of Paul? When I read Paul I read a brother, not Christ, not the Father. Paul words are not the Good News, they build on it.

In the Holy Spirit? Now this I have in my  intimate life in the Lord as a beginning and it was my beginning as it was all our beginning. There is only one Holy Spirit to the prophets, to Paul, to Peter, and to you and I, even yet we know different our Father and Christ.


So where do I start?


Once I knew the Father and yet knew little of Him. And Once I knew Jesus and even under the earth in error I bowed my knee to him. I thought that for him, our Jesus, Paul was able to pick up snakes and heal from their poison and I was awed by the miracle powers of God.

And also this is how I knew Jesus then, I saw his arms scrape his fingers in the sand and I saw them scraped on the cross. I gathered my own crown from thorn and scraped it on scripture and knew Jesus at all stations of the cross. Ah! in Jesus Lord I was rich and for my crown I made Him talk in my words?

Today I start from a simple thing. I start from the Holy Spirit the only thing Peter did give me as it was frankly given to him. From this poor thing given to the poor, you are my brothers  and our differences little things. In this our poverty, in the Holy Spirit, it is plain who our Saviour is and who gives us a purse full of Light. The heart of darkness absent, there are no forms to seperate the Father from the Son and they from the Holy Spirit.

So I ask you to consider it and to start from the Holy Spirit to see if a settlement is not possible from His arbitration. I don't think in This our deity and our understanding is limited. The Holy Spirit in me is the Father and the Son in me. I start with this fundamental.


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## centerpin fan

1gr8bldr said:


> Not God, but second only to God, even above the angels



... yet seemingly inferior to John the Baptist, according to Jesus Himself.


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## Artfuldodger

I too have taken a similar path of 1gr8bldr taking for granted the teachings & preachings of just one denomination that I was raised in. I was not satisfied with answers from them and went looking on my own. With guidance from the Holy Spirit(God) I read the Bible, talked to elders, and researched other denominations and beliefs. I would not want my own children to take my word for what is right but look for answers on their own as I did. I don't want them or anyone to follow my beliefs as I could be wrong.
I can tell 1gr8bldr has did a lot of soul searching on what he believes and did not reach his opinion over night. Like 1gr8bldr, he is just putting his beliefs out their to help people who are trying to figure it all out. He has stated you should do the soul searching as an individual and not just follow what a few preachers preach. I feel some preachers are ordained and some are not.


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## formula1

*Re:*



gordon 2 said:


> So I ask you to consider it and to start from the Holy Spirit to see if a settlement is not possible from His arbitration. I don't think in This our deity and our understanding is limited. The Holy Spirit in me is the Father and the Son in me. I start with this fundamental.



Gordon:

There is a wealth of truth in this statement. May God richly continue to bless you for you surely have found favor before Him.


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## 1gr8bldr

Artfuldodger said:


> I too have taken a similar path of 1gr8bldr taking for granted the teachings & preachings of just one denomination that I was raised in. I was not satisfied with answers from them and went looking on my own. With guidance from the Holy Spirit(God) I read the Bible, talked to elders, and researched other denominations and beliefs. I would not want my own children to take my word for what is right but look for answers on their own as I did. I don't want them or anyone to follow my beliefs as I could be wrong.
> I can tell 1gr8bldr has did a lot of soul searching on what he believes and did not reach his opinion over night. Like 1gr8bldr, he is just putting his beliefs out their to help people who are trying to figure it all out. He has stated you should do the soul searching as an individual and not just follow what a few preachers preach. I feel some preachers are ordained and some are not.


I appreciate this. I too tell my children that I want them to figure out what it is that they believe.


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## gordon 2

formula1 said:


> Gordon:
> 
> There is a wealth of truth in this statement. May God richly continue to bless you for you surely have found favor before Him.



If you only knew how I am on many days like Jonah under a dead tree. My relationship in blessing is more than not a simpleton's complaint--a disgust. I am like the prophet who had an unfaithful wife and this was his favor in life. For what proverty I am given in the Spirit--I still have to beg the banker a loan to pay my taxes and the people I love ask, "Do you love me?"

I feel like I have been loosed many days like a rabbit hound , or most of my life, hunting alone without my master. Blessed? It is not me. My heart is in the wrong body.

Yet the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one. I have not read it anywhere. Ungraceful, I have no manners for the stories related to me. Except that when my ears again are all torn and my tail shaved and bloodied, and my limbs stiff with pain, late in the day when my master calls me, when the day is done, I come home to Him and all three.


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## 1gr8bldr

1gr8bldr said:


> The virgin issue; Luke tells us that many have already written accounts about Jesus and that he too decided to do the same. He tells us that he has investigated the issue. He goes into so very deep detail. Take Mary's song for example. How could he possible have investigated this kind of detail? You see Luke was never an eyewitness of anything. He was a disciple of Paul. Paul was ot an eyewitness. What Luke is doing is "embellishing" the account. But everyone will say that Luke is inspired. I say no. Luke's account was chosen from many, after being written 60+ years after the facts, acquired by oral passing, and that from non eyewitnesses, his account was chosen 200 years later to be included in the canon. It was among hundreds of similar writings. Chosen by uninspired men.  Are we to assume that just because men chose it 200 years later that God inspired it and not those rejected. That is only part of the issue. As seen in some of my other threads, Luke copied from Mark. Luke must have aquired a copy of Mark yet wanted to be known in his region or circle of influence. So rather than recirlulate Mark's, he decided to make one like it in his own name. He begin to copy. Notice that each story other than the virgin birth goes in almost perfect order. Except the "missing block" . For those that don't know what I am refering to, Lukes copy of Mark had a missing section. He copied right over it without notice. Incorrectly connecting one topic with another. He also gave himself away through many other areas called "editorial fatigue". Also, Mark misquotes some of his OT referrences, Luke has the same. I can point out all this if anyone is interested, in great detail. What we have here is an overzealous attempt to make Jesus fit the expectations of the scripture. Matthew was overzealous in his attempt. He quotes 14-14-14 generations, assuming that since God wrapped it up in this neat little package that it must somehow prove Jesus. But Matthew was wrong. He left out 3 generations so his 14-14-14 is a bust. Luke embellished the issue to create the virgin account. Joseph was Jesus father, within the bounds of marriage, Jesus being the firstborn of that union. He became the Son of God at his baptismal when the HS desended on him and remained. Luke would have had no need to copy anybody if he were inspired of God. One must conclude that this is a man made writing, with things written that he had no way of knowing, of which he had no buisness implying that he did.


If Jesus is not Jeseph's son, then he is not "the Son of David"


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## formula1

gordon 2 said:


> If you only knew how I am on many days like Jonah under a dead tree. My relationship in blessing is more than not a simpleton's complaint--a disgust. I am like the prophet who had an unfaithful wife and this is my favor. For what proverty I am given in the Spirit--I still have to beg the banker a loan to pay my taxes and the people I love ask, "Do you love me?"
> 
> I feel like I have been loosed many days like a rabbit hound , or most of my life, hunting alone without my master. Blessed? It is not me. My heart is in the wrong body.



Remember, even when days were dark and empty, Joseph still walked in the plan and purposes and with the favor of God!

Genesis 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.


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## Huntinfool

> There was no rain until the flood




Uhhhhhhhhhhhhh.........say WHAT???


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## 1gr8bldr

Huntinfool said:


> Uhhhhhhhhhhhhh.........say WHAT???


Until the flood, everything was watered by {gen 2 :5+6]"for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth" "but streams came up and watered the whole surface of the ground" Also, the rainbow promise requires the rain. In other words, it would have been there already if it had been raining.


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## 1gr8bldr

1gr8bldr said:


> Until the flood, everything was watered by {gen 2 :5+6]"for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth" "but streams came up and watered the whole surface of the ground" Also, the rainbow promise requires the rain. In other words, it would have been there already if it had been raining.


Hebrews 11:7 "by faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen [rain] built an ark.."


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## 1gr8bldr

The preflood enviroment was different in a major way. I infer that the introduction of rain played a part. But actually if you read the scriptures carefully, you can not prove that rain did not exist. It is inferred, not stated directly


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## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Uhhhhhhhhhhhhh.........say WHAT???



HF, you are a PK, and you haven't heard this concept before?


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## Artfuldodger

1gr8bldr said:


> Until the flood, everything was watered by {gen 2 :5+6]"for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth" "but streams came up and watered the whole surface of the ground" Also, the rainbow promise requires the rain. In other words, it would have been there already if it had been raining.



I've heard this before. It would explain the lack of a rainbow before the flood. The firmament kept the moisture in like a giant terrarium.


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## 1gr8bldr

Artfuldodger said:


> I've heard this before. It would explain the lack of a rainbow before the flood. The firmament kept the moisture in like a giant terrarium.


It would be very interesting to understand this, the enviroment, and how the lifespans were greater, etc


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## hobbs27

Can you sing this?


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## Ronnie T

1gr8bldr said:


> It would be very interesting to understand this, the enviroment, and how the lifespans were greater, etc



I'll bet our jaws would drop if we were shown the entirity of how things were in those days.
I think the possibilities are endless.


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## hobbs27

If you don't believe jesus is God, then you are no different than those that shouted,  Crucify Him, Crucify Him!


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## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> Can you sing this?



Yes Sir.  Thankyou

Child of the King.   Citizen in His kingdom.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> If you don't believe jesus is God, then you are no different than those that shouted,  Crucify Him, Crucify Him!



Those Jews were doing what they were preordained to do for Jesus to get crucified. They were just doing their elected chore for the greater good of mankind.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Those Jews were doing what they were preordained to do for Jesus to get crucified. They were just doing their elected chore for the greater good of mankind.



And people that deny he is God today?


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## Israel

I sometimes believe I see this: people put their faith in believing "right". I know at least one person who does it.

But I also find this when I try to rest comfortably there. Something tells me my faith is misplaced, and is not faith at all..simply self.
Regardless of what I may think I know, things I may think I have learned, or things I may think have "been through" for his namesake...to abide in his name is abiding in the place where I know I can do nothing of myself. And none of that means anything.
I am still...just as I started, if I am indeed, anywhere at all...totally dependent upon someone else to do all for me that, so obviously now, have tried to do...been deceived to do...for myself.
I can only breathe out "save me, or I am not..."


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## 1gr8bldr

Hello Hobbs, The last chorus, "he prayed for me", Why would Jesus if he were God, pray for me? A little more about myself. I left the baptist several years ago for good. I had left for a while looking for fellowship of like believers, but I could not find it. So I returned. I planned that I would attend church and overlook the differences. Being that I had been in that church all my life, I was well known, well liked. But I had to give up teaching because it bothered me to purposely skip scriptures to keep from teaching contrary to my personal beliefs. I managed to do this for about another 3 years. I know this to be exact because that was my deacon term commitment. But towards the end, I could do this no longer. What it was that most bothered me was the music. Much of what was sung was assuming or claiming that Jesus was God. Although I could skip a chorus, I was not among like believers. As soon as my term was up, that day, was my last. The music/songs was the breaking point.


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## 1gr8bldr

When Jesus asked Peter, "who do you say I am?" why did he not reply "God" or "God the Son" or "2nd person of the trinity". He said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God"


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## 1gr8bldr

If the gospel is believing that Jesus is God, why the missing context? The NT was written many years after the fact. Given plenty of time for the writer to observe the acceptance and denial of this socalled truth. After observing this, it would naturally motivate you to address the biggest issue. Surely John, for example had seen hundreds deny that Jesus is God [hypothetical] so you think he would have wrote about this or a least write to try to be convincing that he was. Same with Paul or Peter. If they were trying to convince anyone of this then there should be much context involving this. Instead we see conflict over matters of the law or food sacrificed to idols. But we see no record that extremly monotheistic Jews just accepted a new belief. No explanation of something that so conflicted their beliefs. That God is one, but is three. To believe that they just accepted this, with no recorded explanation, no recorded conflict is not reasonable. They would have had to accept this hook line and sinker with no needed explanation or it simply was not the issue, was not taught, and is a future doctrine.


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## hummerpoo

Israel said:


> I sometimes believe I see this: people put their faith in believing "right". I know at least one person who does it.
> 
> But I also find this when I try to rest comfortably there. Something tells me my faith is misplaced, and is not faith at all..simply self.
> Regardless of what I may think I know, things I may think I have learned, or things I may think have "been through" for his namesake...to abide in his name is abiding in the place where I know I can do nothing of myself. And none of that means anything.
> I am still...just as I started, if I am indeed, anywhere at all...totally dependent upon someone else to do all for me that, so obviously now, have tried to do...been deceived to do...for myself.
> I can only breathe out "save me, or I am not..."



Indeed, we can only know if it is given to us … but then, have we correctly received? … only if it has been given to us to receive correctly.

Where is self?  It is an obstruction.  Lord save us from faith in an obstruction to your Truth.


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## hobbs27

1gr8bldr said:


> Hello Hobbs, The last chorus, "he prayed for me", Why would Jesus if he were God, pray for me? A little more about myself. I left the baptist several years ago for good. .



His prayer for me, is about my personal salvation that is between me and him...if not for any other person, he was beaten, spat on, and crucified for me, that I may have eternal life in heaven.
 Don't forget this one part, as Jesus walked on this Earth he was 100% man and 100% God. I think this gets confusing to those that want to limit Gods power to the rules of the English language.
 As for you being an ex Baptist deacon, and now an Unitarian.Im glad you found a doctrine that suits you, myself I'm just a born again Christian that bounces around from one denomination to another.


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## 1gr8bldr

hobbs27 said:


> His prayer for me, is about my personal salvation that is between me and him...if not for any other person, he was beaten, spat on, and crucified for me, that I may have eternal life in heaven.
> Don't forget this one part, as Jesus walked on this Earth he was 100% man and 100% God. I think this gets confusing to those that want to limit Gods power to the rules of the English language.
> As for you being an ex Baptist deacon, and now an Unitarian.Im glad you found a doctrine that suits you, myself I'm just a born again Christian that bounces around from one denomination to another.


It's lonely being Unitarian because no fellowships exist in my area


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## Artfuldodger

1gr8bldr said:


> It's lonely being Unitarian because no fellowships exist in my area



I'm assuming that is different than the Unitarian Universalism Church.


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## gtparts

1gr8bldr said:


> Some are not sure what they believe about the issue. We both "air out" the arguments so that people might observe and make educated decissions. Not because their mother or Grandmother told them so, but because they know the issues. Not debating the person, just the issues. This debate has gone on since early NT times. I don't think we will settle the issue anytime before he returns. I can respect anyone's position, as long as it was built on a careful evaluation. Many just believe what the preacher says, this is what concerns me



Please don't take this as an attempt to offend, but exactly how did you come about your particular theology? If by the instruction of others, then your basis for your beliefs is no more valid than those you criticize in your first paragraph. 

Secondly,  do you really believe that making an educated decision regarding a theological point based on a thread in this forum is a wise idea?

Let me bottomline this issue as I see it. Your theological position makes little sense to me. I would not trust my eternal soul to the "Jesus" you propose. My study of Scripture does not allow for the possibility of Jesus not being God, incarnate. That poses a number of problems for those who seek to define Jesus based on human perspective. Only a divine revelation can "open the eyes of the blind" to who Jesus was, and is, and always will be. 

The idea that the dual natures of Jesus of Nazareth can be reconciled outside of Scripture is, to my mind, impossible. Can anyone truly comprehend how He could be 100% God and 100% man? Does anyone grasp what spirit really is, especially divine spirit? It appears that yours is an attempt to humanize the very God of all creation. It appears that your focus on God (the Father) and Jesus (the Son) is that they are very distinct and separate entities, yet Scripture repeatedly states the position that Father and Son are one, have been from eternity past.

Did God choose to be incarnated in the person of Jesus, for the purpose of redeeming His lost ones that will believe in the Son? If not, then what was His intent?

Did God, in His desire to understand and change the minds and hearts of men, of His own willful action, limit His incarnate expression? Scripture tells me that He set aside the glories of heaven, so that He would be accepted, first, as a man, and in time, as the Messiah, the perfect sacrifice for our redemption. 

Friend, if this doesn't resonate with your understanding of Scripture, then you and Scripture are far apart.


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## 1gr8bldr

gtparts said:


> Please don't take this as an attempt to offend, but exactly how did you come about your particular theology? If by the instruction of others, then your basis for your beliefs is no more valid than those you criticize in your first paragraph.
> 
> Secondly,  do you really believe that making an educated decision regarding a theological point based on a thread in this forum is a wise idea?
> 
> Let me bottomline this issue as I see it. Your theological position makes little sense to me. I would not trust my eternal soul to the "Jesus" you propose. My study of Scripture does not allow for the possibility of Jesus not being God, incarnate. That poses a number of problems for those who seek to define Jesus based on human perspective. Only a divine revelation can "open the eyes of the blind" to who Jesus was, and is, and always will be.
> 
> The idea that the dual natures of Jesus of Nazareth can be reconciled outside of Scripture is, to my mind, impossible. Can anyone truly comprehend how He could be 100% God and 100% man? Does anyone grasp what spirit really is, especially divine spirit? It appears that yours is an attempt to humanize the very God of all creation. It appears that your focus on God (the Father) and Jesus (the Son) is that they are very distinct and separate entities, yet Scripture repeatedly states the position that Father and Son are one, have been from eternity past.
> 
> Did God choose to be incarnated in the person of Jesus, for the purpose of redeeming His lost ones that will believe in the Son? If not, then what was His intent?
> 
> Did God, in His desire to understand and change the minds and hearts of men, of His own willful action, limit His incarnate expression? Scripture tells me that He set aside the glories of heaven, so that He would be accepted, first, as a man, and in time, as the Messiah, the perfect sacrifice for our redemption.
> 
> Friend, if this doesn't resonate with your understanding of Scripture, then you and Scripture are far apart.


My belief change was based on intense study of my own with no one's help. I purposed it this way because I did not want to give anyone any doubts until I was sure. Actually, You guys think that I am way off scripture. But if you choose a non biased, neutral panel to see who matches scripture and not traditions, who stays within the bounds of scripture, without having to use outside concepts such as dual nature, incarnation, hypostatic union and such, I know for sure who 's side they would uphold. Tradition, assumptions are hard to break. So I respect that you are confident in what you believe, I am the same. We are just discussing each other's positions


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## 1gr8bldr

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm assuming that is different than the Unitarian Universalism Church.


I hope not to be confused with that crowd


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## gtparts

1gr8bldr said:


> If Jesus is not Jeseph's son, then he is not "the Son of David"


This is simply incorrect. Both Mary and Joseph trace their lineages through David, back to Abraham. Both were of the tribe of Judah. You really need to do some research. Here's a start:

http://home.inreach.com/bstanley/geneal.htm


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## Ronnie T

Friends, yall shouldn't have spent the whole night in this forum.
You need to get your beauty sleep.


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## Artfuldodger

Biblical proof Jesus isn't God:

• Jesus said, "The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him." (John 13:16) Jesus said on numerous occasions that, "the Father… hath sent me." (John 5:37,6:37) The Holy Ghost was also sent by the Father (John 14:26) and Jesus (John 16:7), thus making Jesus inferior to the Father and the Holy Ghost inferior to both the Father and Jesus.
• "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another comforter, that he may abide with you forever; even the spirit of truth." (John 14:16)
• Jesus prays to God. (John 17:1-3)
• Jesus has faith in God. (Hebrews 2:17,18, Hebrews 3:2)
• Jesus is a servant of God. (Acts 3:13)
• Jesus does not know things God knows. (Mark 13:32, Revelation 1:1)
• Jesus worships God. (John 4:22)
• Jesus has one who is God to him. (Revelation 3:12)
• Jesus is in subjection to God. (1 Corinthians 15:28)
• Jesus' head is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)
• Jesus has reverent submission, fear, of God. (Hebrews 5:7)
• Jesus is given lordship by God. (Acts 2:36)
• Jesus is exalted by God.(Acts 5:31)
• Jesus is made high priest by God. (Hebrews 5:10)
• Jesus is given authority by God. (Philippians 2:9)
• Jesus is given kingship by God. (Luke 1:32,33)
• Jesus is given judgment by God. (Acts 10:42)
• "God raised [Jesus] from the dead". (Acts 2:24, Romans 10:9, 1 Corinthians 15:15)
• Jesus is at the right hand of God. (Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69, Acts 2:33, Romans 8:34)
• Jesus is the one human mediator between the one God and man. (1 Timothy 2:5)
• God put everything, except Himself, under Jesus. (1 Corinthians 15:24-28)
• Jesus did not think being "equal with God" was graspable. (Philippians 2:6)
• "Around the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, saying "Eli Eli lama sabachthani?" which is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"" (Matthew 27:46)


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## Artfuldodger

More Biblical proof:
At the very outset of Jesus’ ministry, when he came up out of the baptismal water, God’s voice from heaven said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.” (Matthew 3:16, 17) Was God saying that he was his own son, that he approved himself, that he sent himself? No, God the Creator was saying that he, as the superior, was approving a lesser one, his Son Jesus, for the work ahead. Jesus indicated his Father’s superiority when he said: “Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor.” (Luke 4:18) Anointing is the giving of authority or a commission by a superior to someone who does not already have authority. Here God is plainly the superior, for he anointed Jesus, giving him authority that he did not previously have. Jesus made his Father’s superiority clear when the mother of two disciples asked that her sons sit one at the right and one at the left of Jesus when he came into his Kingdom. Jesus answered: “As for seats at my right hand and my left, these are not mine to grant; they belong to those to whom they have been allotted by my Father,” that is, God. (Matthew 20:23) Had Jesus been Almighty God, those positions would have been his to give. But Jesus could not give them, for they were God’s to give, and Jesus was not God.
Jesus’ own prayers are a powerful example of his inferior position. When Jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: “Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.” (Luke 22:42) To whom was he praying? To a part of himself? No, he was praying to someone entirely separate, his Father, God, whose will was superior and could be different from his own, the only One able to “remove this cup. ”Then, as he neared death, Jesus cried out: “My God, my God, why have you deserted me?” (Mark 15:34, JB) To whom was Jesus crying out? To himself or to part of himself? Surely, that cry, “My God,” was not from someone who considered himself to be God. And if Jesus were God, then by whom was he deserted? Himself? That would not make sense. Jesus also said: “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” (Luke 23:46) If Jesus were God, for what reason should he entrust his spirit to the Father?After Jesus died, he was in the tomb for parts of three days. The Bible says that Jesus died and was unconscious in the tomb. Who resurrected Jesus from the dead? If he was truly dead, he could not have resurrected himself. On the other hand, if he was not really dead, his pretended death would not have paid the ransom price for Adam’s sin. But he did pay that price in full by his genuine death. So it was “God [who] resurrected [Jesus] by loosing the pangs of death.” (Acts 2:24) 
Does Jesus’ ability to perform miracles, such as resurrecting people, indicate that he was God? Well, the apostles and the prophets Elijah and Elisha had that power too, but that did not make them more than men. God gave the power to perform miracles to the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles to show that He was backing them. But it did not make any of them part of a plural Godhead or trinity.

1 Timothy 2:5 
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." 


One scripture sometimes used by people who accept the trinity is John 14:7:
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.” Some Christians feel this proves God and Jesus were the same person. However, reading the verse in context demonstrates this is not at all what the Savior was saying.
In verse 10, Jesus says, “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” Here, Jesus Christ clearly says he isn’t speaking for Himself, but for God, and it’s God doing the works, not Him. This makes it very clear they are separate beings. Jesus promises to pray to God to ask God to send a comforter to His apostles when He’s gone, something that would not be necessary if they were the same person. But in verse 20, we learn exactly what Jesus means when He talks about being in the Father:
“At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.” If the previous verses had the meaning that “I am in my Father” meant they were the same person, then the next phrase, “And ye in me, and I in you” would mean the apostles were also the same person as Jesus, making it far larger than a trinity. Jesus uses similar phrasing often, instructing the apostles to be one with each other as He is one with His Father. What He meant, obviously, was to be completely unified in love, doctrine, and purpose.
The testimony of Stephen is even more clear about the separateness of Jesus and God: “But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.” (Acts 7:55-56)


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## hobbs27

Hey Art, The man Christ was tempted by Satan.The God Christ defeated Satan.The man Christ died on the cross.The God Christ rolled the stone away.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Hey Art, The man Christ was tempted by Satan.The God Christ defeated Satan.The man Christ died on the cross.The God Christ rolled the stone away.


The Man Christ didn't resurrect with the God Christ?
Although I don't look at it that way, I can understand your viewpoint. What I can't grasp is when the man Christ ascended back to Heaven did the God Christ leave his body to re-enter the God God? 
The Oneness concept is that since God isn't three Gods in one and the fact that you can't see God, not even in Heaven, that you can only see Jesus in Heaven.
I also heard that Jesus parked his body in Heaven only to re-enter it for his next trip to Earth.


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## thedeacon

Artfuldodger said:


> The Man Christ didn't resurrect with the God Christ?
> Although I don't look at it that way, I can understand your viewpoint. What I can't grasp is when the man Christ ascended back to Heaven did the God Christ leave his body to re-enter the God God?
> The Oneness concept is that since God isn't three Gods in one and the fact that you can't see God, not even in Heaven, that you can only see Jesus in Heaven.
> I also heard that Jesus parked his body in Heaven only to re-enter it for his next trip to Earth.





The problem is, we can't grasp the fact that our human understanding is not capable of reaching Godly concepts. 


There is some things we will never, never understand because it is simply not meant to be. Faith in God is  accepting the things of God that is humanly impossible to even understand.


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## Israel

We carry an earthly view of which we have all been severely indoctrinated.
Man...simply because he is a creature...is evil. That he became evil none of us would doubt...but was that not precisely due to the appeal (of an evil one...no..._the_ evil one) to that precise notion? To be a creature of God is not "good" enough? Therefore put forth your hand to grasp at being like God? (Eat this fruit)

Therefore, it seems, some imagine you impugn Jesus when you call him a man.
Yet once, God called his creation good. Indeed, dare we agree with this scripture?
Gen_1:31  And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, _it was very good._ And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. 

The problem I have come to see in my time in (if any) in the Lord is this...we want (by collusion with an enemy) to take those word (the notion of goodness) to ourselves...that is...we are tricked into thinking we can take them to ourselves..._for_ ourselves. But this comfort never lasts for it is based upon the lie that our own consciousness of ourselves is sufficient, to ourselves. 

But we were made for fellowship. The precise fellowship the Father and son have always enjoyed, and into which we are now invited. God the Father is very pleased with Jesus, indeed, he finds him very good. And he is not at all...in the least bit...ashamed of him being a man.
He is THE man.
Even a man of whom God boasts.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> The Man Christ didn't resurrect with the God Christ?


Human flesh can't withstand the glory of heaven  IMO, scripture does tell us this flesh can't look God in the face.



Artfuldodger said:


> Although I don't look at it that way, I can understand your viewpoint. What I can't grasp is when the man Christ ascended back to Heaven did the God Christ leave his body to re-enter the God God?


No, Christ God sits beside Father God...You ever had a spiritual out of body experience? 



Artfuldodger said:


> The Oneness concept is that since God isn't three Gods in one and the fact that you can't see God, not even in Heaven, that you can only see Jesus in Heaven.


Moses saw Gods backside, as He walked away from him..Since you insist on literal interpretation how do you suppose, Adam and Eve heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden? Gen. 3:8




Artfuldodger said:


> I also heard that Jesus parked his body in Heaven only to re-enter it for his next trip to Earth.



I never read anywhere that Jesus planned on coming back to Earth...except for those fictional "left behind" series of books.  Scripture tells us He's coming back, and we're called up .. to meet him in the sky.


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## hummerpoo

The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!...
and the Cherubim is still on station.


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## gordon 2

I wonder if for our scripture we do not make for our Lord a tomb?


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## Ronnie T

gordon 2 said:


> I wonder if for our scripture we do not make for our Lord a tomb?



You know what, you make a very good point for us all.

.


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## Artfuldodger

The Judgement seat of Christ-Jesus is the judge.
The Great White Throne Judgement-God is the judge.

This shows a seperation of  God & Jesus in Heaven. It also shows some kind of diety of Jesus as a mere man would not have the ability to judge all the Christians.


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## 1gr8bldr

gtparts said:


> This is simply incorrect. Both Mary and Joseph trace their lineages through David, back to Abraham. Both were of the tribe of Judah. You really need to do some research. Here's a start:
> 
> http://home.inreach.com/bstanley/geneal.htm


If he is not Joseph's blood son then he is not Son of David. If, Mary is of David's lineage, and that is an if, it does not matter. No where in the bible does the woman's lineage count for anything


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## Israel

gordon 2 said:


> I wonder if for our scripture we do not make for our Lord a tomb?



Yes.
Is Jesus liberated in us by our study and endeavors or have we placed even more constraints upon his manifestation by our lawyerly requirements?


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## gtparts

1gr8bldr said:


> If he is not Joseph's blood son then he is not Son of David. If, Mary is of David's lineage, and that is an if, it does not matter. No where in the bible does the woman's lineage count for anything


 You obviously either did not read the linked article or you did and completely disregarded it or didn't understand it. 

A mind is a terrible thing to waste; a closed mind is just a terrible thing.


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## 1gr8bldr

gtparts said:


> You obviously either did not read the linked article or you did and completely disregarded it or didn't understand it.
> 
> A mind is a terrible thing to waste; a closed mind is just a terrible thing.


It did not come up when I tried it but I will try again.


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## Ronnie T

A scripture text to ponder.

John 6:“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”


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## gtparts

Artfuldodger said:


> The Judgement seat of Christ-Jesus is the judge.
> The Great White Throne Judgement-God is the judge.
> 
> This shows a seperation of  God & Jesus in Heaven. It also shows some kind of diety of Jesus as a mere man would not have the ability to judge all the Christians.



Your second paragraph is just a highly implausible conclusion that disregards that Jesus stated that "the Father and I are one". It ignores the unity that is attested to in many Scriptures. The fact that you or anyone else cannot reason through the spiritual truth of Jesus and God being one spiritual entity only serves to show that your conclusion is built on human logic rather than spiritual reality and faith.

It should be obvious that if Jesus and the Father are not one, as you seem to think, then Jesus would be a liar and completely unsuitable as a sacrifice for the redemption of the world. Why would you think it impossible for God to be 100% in heaven, as the Father, and be 100% in the flesh, as Jesus, concurrently? Is that too difficult for God?


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## Israel

Ronnie T said:


> A scripture text to ponder.
> 
> John 6:“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”


That Jesus spoke of complete dependence upon his Father while "in the days of his flesh" is spoken clearly in many places. Of his power> "Of myself, I can do nothing"...of his own virtue and righteousness>"why callest thou me good?"...of omniscience>"...the Father will show me greater things..." and "of that day an hour no man knoweth...not even the son..."...of being a man under authority> "I only do what I see the Father doing".
But we just as surely see the testimony of the Lord's eternal estate ..."...glorify thou me with the glory I had with thee..."..."in the beginning was the word..." ..."All authority in heaven and earth"...and every word we see spoken by him in the book of Revelation.
The incarnation is a work totally for our sakes. Jesus regained nothing needed for "himself" in his obedience and humility...he might also have forgone the cross if he cared to "know ye not that even now I could ask the Father for 12 legions of angels..." The point being, he didn't care to. 

There was something he was regaining for his Father...as he spoke and worked ONLY what the Father gave him, and that was a restoration of a people once lost. We are now given to see such humility and grace, such obedience and its profit. 

It is here we are to abide, not counting insults as personal to us, not counting contradiction as our own precious "victimization". 

"The reproaches of those who reproached thee, fell upon me". 

As Jesus came in his Father's name to do and speak only for the purpose of upholding that name, so we are now given a name to uphold. And by that abiding we discover, also, that the Father's name is upheld through Christ in us. 

And so an order is restored "1Co_11:3  But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

Ultimately all is restored and in order "in God". There is no separation, and our lives are "hidden with Christ in God". We can "come out of hiding", if you will, when we testify of ourselves, instead of the one in whose name we have been sent. And I have often done this to my own shame.
But grace remains for repentance.

Just as Jesus' humility is demonstrated in his obedience...but also in these words "any word spoken against the son of man will be forgiven..." We learn there is also one, given in the name of Jesus, whose refusal and contradiction will not be forgiven if blasphemed, because he has further humbled himself to serve the humble one.."for he shall not speak of himself..."
The complete and utter humility of God himself is demonstrated through Jesus, and testified of the Holy Ghost. God has gone as "far under man" as possible to lift him up...putting all aside that pleased his own soul to reach us.

Jesus became sin.
Do we see this?
When someone has truly turned themselves "inside out" in love for another, they can do no more.


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## hummerpoo

Israel said:


> That Jesus spoke of complete dependence upon his Father while "in the days of his flesh" is spoken clearly in many places. Of his power> "Of myself, I can do nothing"...of his own virtue and righteousness>"why callest thou me good?"...of omniscience>"...the Father will show me greater things..." and "of that day an hour no man knoweth...not even the son..."...of being a man under authority> "I only do what I see the Father doing".
> But we just as surely see the testimony of the Lord's eternal estate ..."...glorify thou me with the glory I had with thee..."..."in the beginning was the word..." ..."All authority in heaven and earth"...and every word we see spoken by him in the book of Revelation.
> The incarnation is a work totally for our sakes. Jesus regained nothing needed for "himself" in his obedience and humility...he might also have forgone the cross if he cared to "know ye not that even now I could ask the Father for 12 legions of angels..." The point being, he didn't care to.
> 
> There was something he was regaining for his Father...as he spoke and worked ONLY what the Father gave him, and that was a restoration of a people once lost. We are now given to see such humility and grace, such obedience and its profit.
> 
> It is here we are to abide, not counting insults as personal to us, not counting contradiction as our own precious "victimization".
> 
> "The reproaches of those who reproached thee, fell upon me".
> 
> As Jesus came in his Father's name to do and speak only for the purpose of upholding that name, so we are now given a name to uphold. And by that abiding we discover, also, that the Father's name is upheld through Christ in us.
> 
> And so an order is restored "1Co_11:3  But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."
> 
> Ultimately all is restored and in order "in God". There is no separation, and our lives are "hidden with Christ in God". We can "come out of hiding", if you will, when we testify of ourselves, instead of the one in whose name we have been sent. And I have often done this to my own shame.
> But grace remains for repentance.
> 
> Just as Jesus' humility is demonstrated in his obedience...but also in these words "any word spoken against the son of man will be forgiven..." We learn there is also one, given in the name of Jesus, whose refusal and contradiction will not be forgiven if blasphemed, because he has further humbled himself to serve the humble one.."for he shall not speak of himself..."
> The complete and utter humility of God himself is demonstrated through Jesus, and testified of the Holy Ghost. God has gone as "far under man" as possible to lift him up...putting all aside that pleased his own soul to reach us.
> 
> Jesus became sin.
> Do we see this?
> When someone has truly turned themselves "inside out" in love for another, they can do no more.



I often cringe at the use of the word “doctrine”, but am thinking that it should be applied to your statement.


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## hobbs27

John 8:56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.


John 8:58

Jesus said unto them,Verily,verily, I say unto you,Before Abraham was, I am.

Jesus was Jesus even before Abraham. No doubt Jesus is God in my heart and mind.


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## Artfuldodger

gtparts;6904358
  Why would you think it impossible for God to be 100% in heaven said:
			
		

> I don't think that would be impossible for God to do. I just don't think that is what God did. I'm basing my beliefs on who Jesus said he was in the Bible. I've already posted enough verses that prove Jesus isn't God.


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## 1gr8bldr

hobbs27 said:


> John 8:56
> Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
> 
> 
> John 8:58
> 
> Jesus said unto them,Verily,verily, I say unto you,Before Abraham was, I am.
> 
> Jesus was Jesus even before Abraham. No doubt Jesus is God in my heart and mind.


He saw it through eyes of faith, he rejoiced that one day God would send the Messiah.--- Before Abraham was, I am [sent]. Notice previously in the same chapter that he said the same thing 2x. Most translations have "the one I claim to be" in brackets. If they took this liberty there, why not here also. Same greek grammar. This was part of their lingo. The blind man in the next chapter said the exact same thing. Your translation probably does not show it this way but when you look at the greek it is exact, I am. John's gospel uses the word sent about 40 times. More than the remainder of the NT combined if I recall correctly. That is John's context. Before Abraham was born, I am [sent]. This would be a better than "the one I claim to be" but either way it should have been applied. Also, Jesus was declaring that he was more important than their Abraham who they elevated much farther than he should have been. John said "he was before me", this Jesus said he was before Abraham. They understood this. Think about how Issac was called Abraham's firstborn son yet we know that it was Ishmael. Why, because God promised Issac before Ishmael was born. God's promises were considered as if they already were by men of faith. Jesus was "before" Abraham and John. Also, No Jew ever considered the use of "I am" to mean anything. That is a modern invention. The Early Church Fathers writing volumes trying to defend and tear down the diety of Jesus, never used this argument. Also, The "I am" is actually the result of a "blended translation" Our OT is full of double accounts. I can give lots of examples. What happened is that the writing we have actually came from two writings that were combined. We will say "tradition A and tradition B". Tradition A records that God said that his name was YHWH. Tradition B comes from those who would never say the word YHWH out of reverence. These two traditions were copied to make "Tradition C" which we now have. The original, which would have to be "A" should be the correct words of God. Therefore, there was never an "I am who I am" from God. The proof of this is all over with lots of examples of proof. You can eaisly see it in this case but it jumps out in other examples


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## hobbs27

1gr8bldr said:


> He saw it through eyes of faith, he rejoiced that one day God would send the Messiah.--- Before Abraham was, I am [sent]. Notice previously in the same chapter that he said the same thing 2x. Most translations have "the one I claim to be" in brackets. If they took this liberty there, why not here also. Same greek grammar. This was part of their lingo. The blind man in the next chapter said the exact same thing. Your translation probably does not show it this way but when you look at the greek it is exact, I am. John's gospel uses the word sent about 40 times. More than the remainder of the NT combined if I recall correctly. That is John's context. Before Abraham was born, I am [sent]. This would be a better than "the one I claim to be" but either way it should have been applied. Also, Jesus was declaring that he was more important than their Abraham who they elevated much farther than he should have been. John said "he was before me", this Jesus said he was before Abraham. They understood this. Think about how Issac was called Abraham's firstborn son yet we know that it was Ishmael. Why, because God promised Issac before Ishmael was born. God's promises were considered as if they already were by men of faith. Jesus was "before" Abraham and John. Also, No Jew ever considered the use of "I am" to mean anything. That is a modern invention. The Early Church Fathers writing volumes trying to defend and tear down the diety of Jesus, never used this argument. Also, The "I am" is actually the result of a "blended translation" Our OT is full of double accounts. I can give lots of examples. What happened is that the writing we have actually came from two writings that were combined. We will say "tradition A and tradition B". Tradition A records that God said that his name was YHWH. Tradition B comes from those who would never say the word YHWH out of reverence. These two traditions were copied to make "Tradition C" which we now have. The original, which would have to be "A" should be the correct words of God. Therefore, there was never an "I am who I am" from God. The proof of this is all over with lots of examples of proof. You can eaisly see it in this case but it jumps out in other examples



Oh no...a doubting Thomas. You can tear apart the language and try to say that he didn't mean to say this or that...but the Jews he was speaking to knew what he was saying.

 I like this from Matthew Henry, on verse 58
 Our Saviour gives an effectual answer to this cavil, by a solemn assertion of his own seniority even to Abraham himself, "Verily,verily I say unto you; I say it to your faces, take it how you will; Before Abraham was, I am, Before Abraham was made born, I am" The change of the word is observable, and bespeaks Abraham a creature, and himself the Creator. Before Abraham he was, as God. I am, is the name of God.He does not say I was, but I am, for he is the first and the last. .

The word God (Jesus) used here was so convicting that all they could do was pick up stones to stone him. It was blasphemy for a man to claim to be God, and although in those days blasphemy was to be determined by trial, they went straightforth to stone him...to no avail.


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## 1gr8bldr

hobbs27 said:


> Oh no...a doubting Thomas. You can tear apart the language and try to say that he didn't mean to say this or that...but the Jews he was speaking to knew what he was saying.
> 
> I like this from Matthew Henry, on verse 58
> Our Saviour gives an effectual answer to this cavil, by a solemn assertion of his own seniority even to Abraham himself, "Verily,verily I say unto you; I say it to your faces, take it how you will; Before Abraham was, I am, Before Abraham was made born, I am" The change of the word is observable, and bespeaks Abraham a creature, and himself the Creator. Before Abraham he was, as God. I am, is the name of God.He does not say I was, but I am, for he is the first and the last. .
> 
> The word God (Jesus) used here was so convicting that all they could do was pick up stones to stone him. It was blasphemy for a man to claim to be God, and although in those days blasphemy was to be determined by trial, they went straightforth to stone him...to no avail.


Luke 4:29 had them trying to kill Jesus with no claim of diety. They stoned people at the drop of a hat. Paul, Steven and many more. We should seriously start a new thread about his trial, what he was accused of.


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## 1gr8bldr

hobbs27 said:


> Oh no...a doubting Thomas. You can tear apart the language and try to say that he didn't mean to say this or that...but the Jews he was speaking to knew what he was saying.
> 
> I like this from Matthew Henry, on verse 58
> Our Saviour gives an effectual answer to this cavil, by a solemn assertion of his own seniority even to Abraham himself, "Verily,verily I say unto you; I say it to your faces, take it how you will; Before Abraham was, I am, Before Abraham was made born, I am" The change of the word is observable, and bespeaks Abraham a creature, and himself the Creator. Before Abraham he was, as God. I am, is the name of God.He does not say I was, but I am, for he is the first and the last. .
> 
> The word God (Jesus) used here was so convicting that all they could do was pick up stones to stone him. It was blasphemy for a man to claim to be God, and although in those days blasphemy was to be determined by trial, they went straightforth to stone him...to no avail.


Search Jewish history. There is no expectation of God as "I Am". They are the ones who hold tightly to their expectations and are not effected by change of time or tradition. Yet, then and now, they, the Jews do not consider the use of "I Am" as meaning God. This is an English invention of reverse engineering only after it was converted from Hebrew to English


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## 1gr8bldr

He implied he was greater than Abraham. At this, and many other things recorded, they wanted to kill him


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## hobbs27

1gr8bldr said:


> Search Jewish history. There is no expectation of God as "I Am".



Ex.3:13-14
 And Moses said unto God,Behold,when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? What shall I say unto them?
14 And God said unto Moses,I AM THAT I AM; and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel,I AM hath sent me unto you.






1gr8bldr said:


> They are the ones who hold tightly to their expectations and are not effected by change of time or tradition.



Really? What ever happened to blood sacrifices?




1gr8bldr said:


> Yet, then and now, they, the Jews do not consider the use of "I Am" as meaning God. This is an English invention of reverse engineering only after it was converted from Hebrew to English



Look you have a very strong spirit of doubt and untrust on you. I will pray for you, but you really need to regain your faith, and only you can do this. God the Father is waiting on you at home where you left, I know the swines feed has to be getting old by now, there's a feast awaiting for you when you get back home.


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## hobbs27

1gr8bldr said:


> Luke 4:29 had them trying to kill Jesus with no claim of diety. They stoned people at the drop of a hat. Paul, Steven and many more. We should seriously start a new thread about his trial, what he was accused of.



Luke 4:17
 Jesus reads from the book of Isaiah ...a prophecy of the coming Lord,v18,and v19.
 Then in v21 he explainsThis day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
 So again, he claims to be the son of God....or God depending on your view...This again is why they grew angry at him...He was claiming to be God.


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## 1gr8bldr

hobbs27 said:


> Luke 4:17
> Jesus reads from the book of Isaiah ...a prophecy of the coming Lord,v18,and v19.
> Then in v21 he explainsThis day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
> So again, he claims to be the son of God....or God depending on your view...This again is why they grew angry at him...He was claiming to be God.


Nope, reading the book of Isiah, he was claiming "being annointed". And as far as them getting mad, this was over them thinking that only Jews were worth anything to God. See vs 28 "all the people were furious when they heard this [vs 27].


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## hobbs27

1gr8bldr said:


> as far as them getting mad, this was over them thinking that only Jews were worth anything to God. See vs 28 "all the people were furious when they heard this [vs 27].


Yes, I can see that too. The Jew being a very bigoted race of people. This is evident in the book of Jonah.


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## gtparts

1gr8bldr said:


> He saw it through eyes of faith, he rejoiced that one day God would send the Messiah.--- Before Abraham was, I am [sent]. Notice previously in the same chapter that he said the same thing 2x. Most translations have "the one I claim to be" in brackets. If they took this liberty there, why not here also. Same greek grammar. This was part of their lingo. The blind man in the next chapter said the exact same thing. Your translation probably does not show it this way but when you look at the greek it is exact, I am. John's gospel uses the word sent about 40 times. More than the remainder of the NT combined if I recall correctly. That is John's context. Before Abraham was born, I am [sent]. This would be a better than "the one I claim to be" but either way it should have been applied. Also, Jesus was declaring that he was more important than their Abraham who they elevated much farther than he should have been. John said "he was before me", this Jesus said he was before Abraham. They understood this. Think about how Issac was called Abraham's firstborn son yet we know that it was Ishmael. Why, because God promised Issac before Ishmael was born. God's promises were considered as if they already were by men of faith. Jesus was "before" Abraham and John. Also, No Jew ever considered the use of "I am" to mean anything. That is a modern invention. The Early Church Fathers writing volumes trying to defend and tear down the diety of Jesus, never used this argument. Also, The "I am" is actually the result of a "blended translation" Our OT is full of double accounts. I can give lots of examples. What happened is that the writing we have actually came from two writings that were combined. We will say "tradition A and tradition B". Tradition A records that God said that his name was YHWH. Tradition B comes from those who would never say the word YHWH out of reverence. These two traditions were copied to make "Tradition C" which we now have. The original, which would have to be "A" should be the correct words of God. Therefore, there was never an "I am who I am" from God. The proof of this is all over with lots of examples of proof. You can eaisly see it in this case but it jumps out in other examples



Your point might be well taken.....

if Jesus had been speaking ancient Greek. He most assuredly was speaking Aramaic. It was recorded in Greek. The two are vastly different, making an adequate or precise rendering in the Greek very difficult, particularly where the word used by Jesus was derived directly from 'elohim', the only acceptable reference to God without speaking His name. The people within hearing knew exactly what Jesus was saying.

Don't know where you got that stuff you tried to pass off, but you really have missed a lot of truth, while trying to explain why the Jewish officials got so hot that they wanted to kill Him. You seem to seek out the least credible, most unusual, and downright bizarre sources for your theological positions. You may be a top-ranked contrarian, but the stuff you're peddling doesn't have a market with my house.


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## 1gr8bldr

gtparts said:


> Your point might be well taken.....
> 
> if Jesus had been speaking ancient Greek. He most assuredly was speaking Aramaic. It was recorded in Greek. The two are vastly different, making an adequate or precise rendering in the Greek very difficult, particularly where the word used by Jesus was derived directly from 'elohim', the only acceptable reference to God without speaking His name. The people within hearing knew exactly what Jesus was saying.
> 
> Don't know where you got that stuff you tried to pass off, but you really have missed a lot of truth, while trying to explain why the Jewish officials got so hot that they wanted to kill Him. You seem to seek out the least credible, most unusual, and downright bizarre sources for your theological positions. You may be a top-ranked contrarian, but the stuff you're peddling doesn't have a market with my house.


Traditional assumptions are powerful


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## gtparts

1gr8bldr said:


> Traditional assumptions are powerful



And more often a better explanation than the off-the-wall suggestions or way-out, radical speculations. After all, 1900 years after the NT was written (give or take a few) it is only reasonable that much of the traditional understanding today is the result of valid research and scholarly examination in many specialties.


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## Israel

hobbs27 said:


> Luke 4:17
> Jesus reads from the book of Isaiah ...a prophecy of the coming Lord,v18,and v19.
> Then in v21 he explainsThis day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
> So again, he claims to be the son of God....or God depending on your view...This again is why they grew angry at him...He was claiming to be God.



A wiser man than myself once said there are only two reasons for anyone doing anything...the one they give you, and the real reason. Cynical you may say. But I wouldn't.

Heresy has always been the accusation of last resort (or maybe, actually the first) of religious people whose unrighteousness is exposed by the presence of God. 

That does not mean there are not "real" heretics, or that heresy is to be indulged. The difference always comes in the matter of handling them. 

Gamiliel showed a wisdom born of something other than the flesh when confronted with something he did not yet understand...and with what he may well have disagreed.

But the natural man will rarely admit to the murder in his heart, and he dare not even consider it may well be the spirit exposing it...no...the "fault" is always in the other.
It would have been actually commendable had the Pharisees motives been a true zeal for the name of God, even though they may have mistaken Jesus' words as blasphemy. 

But no, the chicken came well before the egg in this case...every reason they gave was manufactured, every display of "righteous outrage" a sham, every word uttered as witness against Jesus...a lie. Not because they were zealous for their God...but simply because well...they didn't like him. They hated him. They despised him. His words, work, and mere presence among them (in Jesus) exposed them daily to shame in the spirit.

But being completely devoid of spiritual understanding, all they could sense was a loathing, and since they could never accept what they were sensing was actually the true God's esteem of religious hypocrisy...and their own hatred of God being manifest...the "fault" must have been in Jesus, cause he was the cause of it. Or so they thought.

Simply get rid of Jesus...and once again...all would be right in their world...they could go on telling themselves they loved God, and enjoy the position and power and parade of their own righteousness before others.

The devil never wants us to look at ourselves, cause that's where he's most easily at home.

Another Pharisee was intent on stamping out the name of Jesus...so inflamed (can you see a dragon?) the scripture testifies of him this way:
Act_9:1  And Saul, _yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter_ against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

He also wonderfully...failed. 

He later testified to something he discovered, the carnal man is absolutely at enmity with God. 
But when need be...he can sure find many religious reasons to supply in his attempts to dethrone Him.


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## Ronnie T

gtparts said:


> And more often a better explanation than the off-the-wall suggestions or way-out, radical speculations. After all, 1900 years after the NT was written (give or take a few) it is only reasonable that much of the traditional understanding today is the result of valid research and scholarly examination in many specialties.




Maybe.

But I'm inclined to be assured of earlier beliefs than I am some of the 'new-age' thinking in Christianity.
I'll take the 90 year old church over the 20th century church.  Scholarly examination today often involves the over-educated.
Modern research too often involves modern thinking.


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## 1gr8bldr

gtparts said:


> And more often a better explanation than the off-the-wall suggestions or way-out, radical speculations. After all, 1900 years after the NT was written (give or take a few) it is only reasonable that much of the traditional understanding today is the result of valid research and scholarly examination in many specialties.


Orthodoxy was not the result of understanding. It was through power, power of Constantine


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## Artfuldodger

The Jews wanted to stone Jesus because he said he was the Son of God.
Luke 22:70
They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?" He replied, "You are right in saying I am." 

John 19:7
The Jews insisted, "We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God."

John 10:36
do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?"

Why would Jesus say "I and my Father are one", "The Father is greater than I", "I am the Mediator between man & God". 
When the Jews ask him if he was God, why didn't he say "Yes I am God. You can pick up all the stones you want and I won't go hide."


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## 1gr8bldr

Artfuldodger said:


> The Jews wanted to stone Jesus because he said he was the Son of God.
> Luke 22:70
> They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?" He replied, "You are right in saying I am."
> 
> John 19:7
> The Jews insisted, "We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God."
> 
> John 10:36
> do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?"
> 
> Why would Jesus say "I and my Father are one", "The Father is greater than I", "I am the Mediator between man & God".
> When the Jews ask him if he was God, why didn't he say "Yes I am God. You can pick up all the stones you want and I won't go hide."


Correct. They were looking for anything to twist in order that they might accuse him. Yet at his trial, they had to search out false witnesses to find anything against him. Since they could find nothing, they handed him over to Pilate as one starting a rebellion against Rome. Long after every chance for his socalled God claims with no accusations of such, only at the point that Pilate might release him, someone in a last minute grasp for something, made a claim "We have a law......." Why was this not mentioned until now. His sign written above his head was proof of what he was claiming. And it was not God.


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## 1gr8bldr

They wanted to stone him because he insulted their religious intergrity. They thought that they had mastered being religious. They were proud, puffed up. Jesus insulted them. This they despised


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## Israel

1gr8bldr said:


> They wanted to stone him because he insulted their religious intergrity. They thought that they had mastered being religious. They were proud, puffed up. Jesus insulted them. This they despised


Yep.
How dare he! Who did he think he is, anyway?


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## gtparts

1gr8bldr said:


> Orthodoxy was not the result of understanding. It was through power, power of Constantine



I'm not sure you understand my position. I do not champion orthodoxy for orthodoxy's sake. Far from it. And, the mention of Constantine is a red herring, at best.

What I do count as meaningful is the research/scholarship used in reaching 21st century Christian theology that supports orthodoxy. When the preponderance of new evidence (say, from the last 200 years) under-girds the understandings that have been around much longer, well, it makes no sense to throw rocks at orthodoxy. 

Orthodoxy can be spot on or it can be beyond-the-pale wrong.
Orthodoxal thinking is never right because it is orthodoxal. It is right because it is right... or it is wrong because it is wrong.
Likewise, anti-orthodoxal thinking is right if it is right and wrong if it is wrong.

Mainstream Christian theology is mainstream in large part because it has been repeatedly tested against the assaults of radical 'new' ideas, such as you and Artfuldodger have brought to the table.

Authentic Swiss cheese is processed with gas-producing bacteria, forming the many voids that, when sliced, appear to be holes.  

You may be quite sincere in your theology, but slicing through it with the Word and the guidance of the Holy Spirit, I find no bacteria.. but lots of holes.


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## thedeacon

The only time Jesus has ever been limited is when we as weak believers limit him because of our lack of faith.

Just because something didn't happen because it was the plan of God doesn't mean there was a limit line drawn.

To many times we refuse to cross a line that was never drawn in the first place.


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## Ronnie T

thedeacon said:


> The only time Jesus has ever been limited is when we as weak believers limit him because of our lack of faith.
> 
> Just because something didn't happen because it was the plan of God doesn't mean there was a limit line drawn.
> 
> To many times we refuse to cross a line that was never drawn in the first place.



Funny how we sometimes set rules.  What can and cannot; will and will not happen.  God's diety is never limited.  There are no limits to God's reach except that which He decides to limit Himself at a particular time.

The thief is one.  Ananias is another.


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## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> Funny how we sometimes set rules.  What can and cannot; will and will not happen.  God's diety is never limited.  There are no limits to God's reach except that which He decides to limit Himself at a particular time.
> 
> The thief is one.  Ananias is another.



The O.P. was whether Jesus' deity was limited so that he could experience things the way man could. Examples: pain, suffering, hunger, thirst, need for prayer, need for sleep, & most importantly the ability to die.
How could he have done all this if he didn't limit his deity?
God the Father in Heaven has no limits.


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## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> John 10:18
> No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”



I realize you responded with this verse but I kinda wanted a few more responses on Jesus limiting his deity. (and not just from you). I know we got off topic a little and that's ok too.


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## Israel

Men simply don't like to be seen as obeying other men. Somehow it seems to demean them, to be under the authority of something they believe no better than themselves.
Men proudly proclaim "I don't listen to men, I listen only to God!"
Men know it is a shame to have anything over them but God. But God has ordained a man, Christ Jesus, to be over all things to us...because of his (not our imaginary ability) obedience to the one true God.
The man who strives to know the naked truth of God will also learn along the way the peculiar presence of something that wants to submit to the creature (as did Adam) that had submitted to the lie of the serpent...a very beggarly creature over which that man was to have dominion.
The way of deliverance out of that man (Adam) that derivatively submitted to that weak and clever being is through obedience to another man. 
There's simply no way around a man to God. But through one.
Not receiving God's order simply shows we are yet abiding in a rebellious man, simply telling ourselves "I'll do it my way"

1Co_11:3  But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 

A man once fell for not heeding his head, but for acquiescing to the one whose head he had been made. 

To deny the manhood of Christ is to simply show you are still in love, and found in, the man who fell. And submitted to his weak and beggarly choices.


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## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> The O.P. was whether Jesus' deity was limited so that he could experience things the way man could. Examples: pain, suffering, hunger, thirst, need for prayer, need for sleep, & most importantly the ability to die.
> How could he have done all this if he didn't limit his deity?
> God the Father in Heaven has no limits.



Now really! This is a blanket statement, I believe. God the Father has limits. If you remember in the creation story His creation(creating) is not limited. It goes from one item to the next. Also, there was a limit to what "tree" boys and girls were permitted to cleave to.

In the Old Testament God claims that He is a jealous (pain) God. He also hears the prayers and cries of little people, the poor and the folk treated unjustly.( Read prophets.) The consequences for accepting injustice as ordinary part of life are very severe to even His chosen people! They return to slavery to where they had been made free! They like Adam and Eve before get bumped out of the zone. etc...

I think that God the Father does have limits. He states He is long suffering. He has made known the limits in how people use or are in relationship to Him. ( See Job.) He also has limits on what is moral and just.( See Good Samaritan.) From anger to grace there is plenty of evidence that God has limits (emotional limits) to what man does as His creation and in His Creation.

From pointing out what was clean and unclean and what is rightiousness throught out time, for what is in the heart of men, for me my Father has always had limits--and the word states His emotions concerning them...


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## Artfuldodger

God the Father has put limits on us. If that is what you are getting at, i'll agree. God the Father put limits on his Son Jesus or either Jesus put limits on himself.


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## Israel

I am not sure what you mean by limits. We are as free as all the love there is. Love is not only real, it is what _is_ real. Everything else...even the limits we may see imposed are a result of our imperfect sight, not the truth.
Something there is that loves a wall...

When all the desire to maintain our own "intactness" dissolves in the revelation of the one torn open for us, refusing to abide _alone_ and we finally see the fullness of he who abode within Him...we will also discover 

Something there is that doesn't love a wall...


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## hobbs27

After a little more study on this subject, I'm even more concrete in knowing that Jesus is God.Here's my case from the word of God.

Isaiah43:10 Ye are my witnesses,saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Now, Paul says that
 1Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father

God the Father speaking of the Son in Hebrews 1:8
 But unto the Son he saith, Thy Throne, O God, is for ever and ever:

In Acts 5:3-4 Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit, Peter points out that he had not lied to men but to God.

Finally John 17:1-26  shows the Father and the Son love one another, and speak to one another,
 and together they send the Holy Spirit John 15:26,

and Jesus proclaims that He and the Father are two distinct witnesses, and two distinct Judges , John 8:14-18
If you read the scriptures and pray about it I hope you will understand what Im saying, Jesus, The Father, and The Holy Spirit are one, with distinct functions, so basically, Our God is one 
(What) with three (Who's).


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## 1gr8bldr

hobbs27 said:


> After a little more study on this subject, I'm even more concrete in knowing that Jesus is God.Here's my case from the word of God.
> 
> Isaiah43:10 Ye are my witnesses,saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
> 
> Now, Paul says that
> 1Corinthians 8:6 But to us *there is but one God, the Father*
> 
> God the Father speaking of the Son in Hebrews 1:8
> But unto the Son he saith, Thy Throne, O God, is for ever and ever:
> 
> In Acts 5:3-4 Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit, Peter points out that he had not lied to men but to God.
> 
> Finally John 17:1-26  shows the Father and the Son love one another, and speak to one another,
> and together they send the Holy Spirit John 15:26,
> 
> and Jesus proclaims that He and the Father are two distinct witnesses, and two distinct Judges , John 8:14-18
> If you read the scriptures and pray about it I hope you will understand what Im saying, Jesus, The Father, and The Holy Spirit are one, with distinct functions, so basically, Our God is one
> (What) with three (Who's).


What does this say? It says the Father is the only God.


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## 1gr8bldr

hobbs27 said:


> After a little more study on this subject, I'm even more concrete in knowing that Jesus is God.Here's my case from the word of God.
> 
> Isaiah43:10 Ye are my witnesses,saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
> 
> Now, Paul says that
> 1Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father
> 
> God the Father speaking of the Son in Hebrews 1:8
> But unto the Son he saith, *Thy Throne, O God, is for ever and ever:*
> 
> In Acts 5:3-4 Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit, Peter points out that he had not lied to men but to God.
> 
> Finally John 17:1-26  shows the Father and the Son love one another, and speak to one another,
> and together they send the Holy Spirit John 15:26,
> 
> and Jesus proclaims that He and the Father are two distinct witnesses, and two distinct Judges , John 8:14-18
> If you read the scriptures and pray about it I hope you will understand what Im saying, Jesus, The Father, and The Holy Spirit are one, with distinct functions, so basically, Our God is one
> (What) with three (Who's).


This is not God calling Jesus God. It is merely the Hebrew writer calling our attention to an OT passage. The first portion is about God for context and so that we can see from where it came. "therefore God [God Almighty] your God {jesus's God] has set you above...annointing you...'. Why would the writer of Hebrews tell us in the same breath that Jesus is superior to the angels or "let all God's angel's worship him". If he is God, then that would be a given would it not?


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## 1gr8bldr

hobbs27 said:


> After a little more study on this subject, I'm even more concrete in knowing that Jesus is God.Here's my case from the word of God.
> 
> Isaiah43:10 Ye are my witnesses,saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
> 
> Now, Paul says that
> 1Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father
> 
> God the Father speaking of the Son in Hebrews 1:8
> But unto the Son he saith, Thy Throne, O God, is for ever and ever:
> 
> In Acts 5:3-4 *Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit, Peter points out that he had not lied to men but to God.
> *
> Finally John 17:1-26  shows the Father and the Son love one another, and speak to one another,
> and together they send the Holy Spirit John 15:26,
> 
> and Jesus proclaims that He and the Father are two distinct witnesses, and two distinct Judges , John 8:14-18
> If you read the scriptures and pray about it I hope you will understand what Im saying, Jesus, The Father, and The Holy Spirit are one, with distinct functions, so basically, Our God is one
> (What) with three (Who's).


Annias lied to God. The HS is God. God is Spirit and God is Holy. The HS is not a coequal 3rd person of the trinity. When the Spirit or the Shekeniah Glory entered the temple, was it the Spirit of God? or his coequal 3rd person, God the Holy Spirit?


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## 1gr8bldr

hobbs27 said:


> After a little more study on this subject, I'm even more concrete in knowing that Jesus is God.Here's my case from the word of God.
> 
> Isaiah43:10 Ye are my witnesses,saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
> 
> Now, Paul says that
> 1Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father
> 
> God the Father speaking of the Son in Hebrews 1:8
> But unto the Son he saith, Thy Throne, O God, is for ever and ever:
> 
> In Acts 5:3-4 Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit, Peter points out that he had not lied to men but to God.
> 
> Finally John 17:1-26  *shows the Father and the Son love one another, and speak to one another,
> and together they send the Holy Spirit John 15:26,
> *
> and Jesus proclaims that He and the Father are two distinct witnesses, and two distinct Judges , John 8:14-18
> If you read the scriptures and pray about it I hope you will understand what Im saying, Jesus, The Father, and The Holy Spirit are one, with distinct functions, so basically, Our God is one
> (What) with three (Who's).


Love one another, speak to one another means nothing in regards to the trinity. Together they don't send the HS. When Solomons's temple was completed, the Spirit of God came to dwell. The completion made way for God's Spirit. Jesus upon finishing his work, "tear down this temple and be raised a new not made by human hands" has completed the temple for God to dwell. So he did not send the HS, as if it was up to him to give, it was already planned to come once his work was completed


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## 1gr8bldr

hobbs27 said:


> After a little more study on this subject, I'm even more concrete in knowing that Jesus is God.Here's my case from the word of God.
> 
> Isaiah43:10 Ye are my witnesses,saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
> 
> Now, Paul says that
> 1Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father
> 
> God the Father speaking of the Son in Hebrews 1:8
> But unto the Son he saith, Thy Throne, O God, is for ever and ever:
> 
> In Acts 5:3-4 Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit, Peter points out that he had not lied to men but to God.
> 
> Finally John 17:1-26  shows the Father and the Son love one another, and speak to one another,
> and together they send the Holy Spirit John 15:26,
> 
> and Jesus proclaims that He and the Father are two distinct witnesses, and two distinct Judges , John 8:14-18
> If you read the scriptures and pray about it I hope you will understand what Im saying, *Jesus, The Father, and The Holy Spirit are one*, with distinct functions, so basically, Our God is one
> (What) with three (Who's).


Jesus has received the Spirit of his Father. That made them one. Not the Father, Son and HS are one


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## hobbs27

1gr8bldr said:


> What does this say? It says the Father is the only God.



Yep, thats what it says, and it's right. Jesus is the only God , The Holy Spirit is the only God and , The Father is the only God.






1gr8bldr said:


> This is not God calling Jesus God. It is merely the Hebrew writer calling our attention to an OT passage.


It is God the Father calling the Son God, and the NT is translated from Greek.



1gr8bldr said:


> The first portion is about God for context and so that we can see from where it came. "therefore God [God Almighty] your God {jesus's God] has set you above...annointing you...'. Why would the writer of Hebrews tell us in the same breath that Jesus is superior to the angels or "let all God's angel's worship him". If he is God, then that would be a given would it not?


A better question for you is, Would God the Father suggest we or Angels worship a seperate being other than himself? We are to worship only one God, and that God is, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.






1gr8bldr said:


> Annias lied to God. The HS is God. God is Spirit and God is Holy. The HS is not a coequal 3rd person of the trinity. When the Spirit or the Shekeniah Glory entered the temple, was it the Spirit of God? or his coequal 3rd person, God the Holy Spirit?



Man...come on , you're 2 for 3, now add the Son and you will have a complete God, you know , The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit God, 





1gr8bldr said:


> Jesus has received the Spirit of his Father. That made them one. Not the Father, Son and HS are one



We simply disagree.


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## 1gr8bldr

hobbs27 said:


> Yep, thats what it says, and it's right. Jesus is the only God , The Holy Spirit is the only God and , The Father is the only God.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is God the Father calling the Son God, and the NT is translated from Greek.
> 
> 
> A better question for you is, Would God the Father suggest we or Angels worship a seperate being other than himself? We are to worship only one God, and that God is, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man...come on , you're 2 for 3, now add the Son and you will have a complete God, you know , The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit God,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We simply disagree.


Hello Hobbs, I'm concerned, I don't want you to think that this is in any way personal. I merely try to show both sides of the debate.


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## hobbs27

1gr8bldr said:


> Hello Hobbs, I'm concerned, I don't want you to think that this is in any way personal. I merely try to show both sides of the debate.



Nope, nothing personal. I've come to realize God is an all knowing God, and He works on all of His children differently. I prefer the old hymns to be sung when I'm at worship in church, I prefer a preacher that will foam at the mouth and get LOUD, I love it when the spirit comes down and women go to shouting and men go to running up and down the ailes. Just because this is what I like doesn't mean that it's the only way, God sets us on paths and uses us in this old life to witness to certain people....so He may have you where you are today, believing what you do, just so you will cross paths with a certain person one day that you will witness to.
 It is an awesome thing that God allows us the joy of preaching and teaching the Gospel. I hope you are enjoying you're salvation. Just reading His word and studying is a great way to worship.


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