# After God



## ambush80 (Sep 28, 2018)

We talk mostly about why we don't believe in a god or gods and it occurred to me that we never offer an alternative.  The discussion with Brother David made me think "If I convinced Brother David that there's no God, what does he do then?"  What did you A/A guys do when you de-converted? How did you think of the "Big Questions"? What replaced God?  What did you miss most about believing?  Do you think there could be such a thing as a secular institution that serves the same purposes as a church?  What advice would you offer to someone who had recently de-converted?  What are the pitfalls if any?


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## j_seph (Sep 28, 2018)

My thought is how can you go from feeling God, Believing in God, Worshiping God and know it is real. Then one day decide all that you felt and did was not real. We battle with our mind and our thoughts everyday. This is where satan attacks us the most. It seems to me that those that were honestly seeking God, worshipping him in truth and in spirit, and living for God allowed Satan an inch and he took it a mile and as he does, he got them out there then left em there.

https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/the-battle-for-your-mind


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## ambush80 (Sep 28, 2018)

j_seph said:


> My thought is how can you go from feeling God, Believing in God, Worshiping God and know it is real. Then one day decide all that you felt and did was not real. We battle with our mind and our thoughts everyday. This is where satan attacks us the most. It seems to me that those that were honestly seeking God, worshipping him in truth and in spirit, and living for God allowed Satan an inch and he took it a mile and as he does, he got them out there then left em there.
> 
> https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/the-battle-for-your-mind



I'll watch the whole thing later if you promise to discuss it with me.


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## j_seph (Sep 28, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> I'll watch the whole thing later if you promise to discuss it with me.


I read parts of it I did not watch the video as I do not have sound on this computer.


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## ambush80 (Sep 28, 2018)

j_seph said:


> I read parts of it I did not watch the video as I do not have sound on this computer.



Oh.....OK.  I'll read it in a couple of hours after I do some stuff then I'd like to discuss it.


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## j_seph (Sep 28, 2018)

Bible talks a lot of strengthening our minds, renewing our minds, submitting our minds. Jesus lives in our heart, not in our minds. So if Jesus is truly in our hearts then Satan cannot get there. The battlefield is our mind, look at all the craziness that happens and these folks that do it are messed up in their minds. IMO if someone was truly saved and seeked God then they would not turn away and deny him. If they had that I think I am saved then yes they would deny it just as they accepted it or thought that they did. I know several saved, that walked away, satan got in that good old brain and led them astray. Yet they will still tell you there is a God and not deny it.


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## bullethead (Sep 28, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> We talk mostly about why we don't believe in a god or gods and it occurred to me that we never offer an alternative.  The discussion with Brother David made me think "If I convinced Brother David that there's no God, what does he do then?"  What did you A/A guys do when you de-converted? How did you think of the "Big Questions"? What replaced God?  What did you miss most about believing?  Do you think there could be such a thing as a secular institution that serves the same purposes as a church?  What advice would you offer to someone who had recently de-converted?  What are the pitfalls if any?


At times I still feel like Santa is Watching. I don't know if I can get rid of that.
I STILL pick a spot through the trees at daybreak EVERY single time I hunt and say a few words to literally whoever or whatever , especially my relation that has passed, is listening.
"Thank you for letting me be here today. Please keep my friends and family safe. If I am fortunate enough to have the opportunity to get a shot today, please let it be accurate. Not so that I look like some mighty hunter but because I owe it to the animal who's life I am about to take. Please let death be quick and painless. Thank you" I also take the time to show respect to the downed animal.
I honestly cannot say why I do that. I know that I started to do it after I started to Stop believing in the Christian version of god. Maybe it is still a carry over.  Maybe I do it because it is routine, and it seems to work, and that if nothing else...I feel better about doing it than not.

That being said.
I would say to someone in my situation that recently has lost their way with religion to live every day to its fullest. Treat others like you want to be treated. Make a lasting positive impression on your family, friends and acquaintances so that when you are gone they can think back to you as an example.

What I would also like to say to anyone that believes in any god is that as long as they are happy and feel good about themselves that I do not think any less of them as a person or less of their intelligence.


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## Spotlite (Sep 28, 2018)

j_seph said:


> My thought is how can you go from feeling God, Believing in God, Worshiping God and know it is real. Then one day decide all that you felt and did was not real


My personal opinion would be they didn’t to begin with. I know folks that have left church but still believe in God. But those that go from as you said to non believers, is hard for me grasp how.


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## Spotlite (Sep 28, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I would say to someone in my situation that recently has lost their way with religion to live every day to its fullest. Treat others like you want to be treated. Make a lasting positive impression on your family, friends and acquaintances so that when you are gone they can think back to you as an example.


I wished everyone shared this outlook and goal regardless if they’re religious or not.


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## Brother David (Sep 28, 2018)

Bullethead I believe that is the Holy Spirit reminding you that God never left you . Sometimes we think God abandons us , but in truth we leave God ! Those doubts are real ask Thomas the disciple . Once you put your hand in his , Christ won't let go .


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## bullethead (Sep 28, 2018)

Brother David said:


> Bullethead I believe that is the Holy Spirit reminding you that God never left you . Sometimes we think God abandons us , but in truth we leave God ! Those doubts are real ask Thomas the disciple . Once you put your hand in his , Christ won't let go .


Who's Holy Spirit?
I cannot find evidence of a single god that mankind has conjured up, let alone narrow the thousands to one specific god.

I have no doubt that you equate everything to the God of the bible. Probably the Gods of the OT and NT as convenience allows.
But had you been born and raised in Iran you would be telling me that it is Allah reminding me.
Or if you were a shawman in a tribe you would somehow intertwine my thoughts with whatever natural force they think rules their world.

I am not surprised or offended by your explanation,  but honestly what else would you say to me?


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## ambush80 (Sep 28, 2018)

j_seph said:


> My thought is how can you go from feeling God, Believing in God, Worshiping God and know it is real. Then one day decide all that you felt and did was not real. We battle with our mind and our thoughts everyday. This is where satan attacks us the most. It seems to me that those that were honestly seeking God, worshipping him in truth and in spirit, and living for God allowed Satan an inch and he took it a mile and as he does, he got them out there then left em there.
> 
> https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/the-battle-for-your-mind




I'm reading the thing now.  I'll bring up issues as i come to them.

*1) Don’t Believe Everything You Think*
_*  *
We naturally feel that if we think something, it must be true because it comes from within us. But just because you think something does not make it true. As I said above, I have seen the face of mental illness. So many different suggestions can come into the mind. The world puts suggestions in our minds that are false, and we are bombarded with those false ideas all the time. And, of course, Satan makes suggestions all the time. But your problem is much deeper than Satan. Everybody has a mental illness. We are all mentally ill. The mental illness is called sin. And the Bible uses at least a dozen different phrases for the condition of our minds under sin._

Why don't you think that the Bible is subject to that kind of scrutiny?  Wasn't the idea of God, in particular the Christian God  a suggestion that someone put in your mind?

_"So many different suggestions can come into the mind. The world puts suggestions in our minds that are false, and we are bombarded with those false ideas all the time."_

So in trying to stick with my original thought, I will offer an alternative for people that de-convert:

"Don't Believe Everything You Think". 

Be skeptical.  Require extraordinary proof for extraordinary claims.  Trust your instincts when something sounds screwy like the Ark Story or the resurrection story. You're actually going against what thousands of years of hard earned knowledge about the world have shown us when you believe things that go against nature.


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## bullethead (Sep 28, 2018)

Brother David said:


> Bullethead I believe that is the Holy Spirit reminding you that God never left you . Sometimes we think God abandons us , but in truth we leave God ! Those doubts are real ask Thomas the disciple . Once you put your hand in his , Christ won't let go .


How exactly would I be able to get in touch with Thomas?
Unfortunately I do not think that the bible is anything but a conglomeration of ancient man written stories with zero divine influence or intervetion.


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## ambush80 (Sep 28, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> My personal opinion would be they didn’t to begin with. I know folks that have left church but still believe in God. But those that go from as you said to non believers, is hard for me grasp how.



My personal opinion is that you're taking the useful parts of the Biblical stories, the traditional wisdoms, and drinking the "bathwater" while misunderstanding the "baby".


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## ambush80 (Sep 28, 2018)

Brother David said:


> Bullethead I believe that is the Holy Spirit reminding you that God never left you . Sometimes we think God abandons us , but in truth we leave God ! Those doubts are real ask Thomas the disciple . Once you put your hand in his , Christ won't let go .



Please discuss this with Spotlite here in front of us.  It would be a revelation on how Discernment works.  This is hollowed ground here where you can say what you think.  I've never seen anyone get banned from here for heresy.


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## Brother David (Sep 28, 2018)

You ask for proof . The feeling that comes over you is the Holy Spirit . From whom , Yaweh , Jehovah , El-Shaddai , The Great I am , which ever name you use for God .


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## ambush80 (Sep 28, 2018)

*Our Broken Minds*
_*  *
Our minds are broken by sin. Which means we cannot trust even what we think, ourselves. Jeremiah 17:9 says, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?” We have an amazing ability to lie to ourselves. You do it all the time. So do I. We lie._


_We tell ourselves that things aren’t as bad as they really are. We tell ourselves that things are better than they really are. We tell ourselves that we’re doing okay when we’re not doing okay. We’re telling ourselves it’s no big deal when it is a big deal. In fact, the Bible tells us that you cannot be trusted to tell yourself the truth. That’s why you need to question your own thoughts and teach others not to believe everything they think._

Again,  this is a call for skepticism.  My advice to the de-converted would be

"Don't Trust What You Think"

We are superstitious creatures.  It's part of our survival instinct.  We jump at a coil of rope in a dark corner or at a rustle in the bushes as we walk by and for good reason.  Our lives could depend on that reaction.  That's the origin of our belief in  supernatural agency, meaning, we project that "someone is at the helm".  Don't trust what you think.  Turn on the light to reveal a coil of rope.  Look behind the bush after you determine there's no threat.  People who are afraid of He11 or wish for Heaven are stuck in the instinct phase of a fear reaction.


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## ambush80 (Sep 28, 2018)

Brother David said:


> You ask for proof . The feeling that comes over you is the Holy Spirit . From whom , Yaweh , Jehovah , El-Shaddai , The Great I am , which ever name you use for God .



I can say "I believe that you felt what you think you felt" but what you think you felt might not actually be what you felt.  How do you know that when you hear God's voice that it's not actually tour own?


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## Brother David (Sep 28, 2018)

Because I am not nearly smart enough to come with the answer myself !!!!!!!!


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## ambush80 (Sep 28, 2018)

Brother David said:


> Because I am not nearly smart enough to come with the answer myself !!!!!!!!



I'll take you at your word.


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## bullethead (Sep 28, 2018)

Brother David said:


> You ask for proof . The feeling that comes over you is the Holy Spirit . From whom , Yaweh , Jehovah , El-Shaddai , The Great I am , which ever name you use for God .


I was told by someone else it was Krishna.
Someone else told me it was Ra.

Explain to me, and if you can PROVE to me that your god exists and that it is that god contacting me.
I require more proof than someone  just telling me that something is.


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## ambush80 (Sep 28, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I was told by someone else it was Krishna.
> Someone else told me it was Ra.
> 
> Explain to me, and if you can PROVE to me that your god exists and thatbit is that god contacting me.




No joke, the most powerful religious experience I had where I loved everybody and I felt like I was one with God and the Universe was when I was on psyhcedelic drugs.  That's the truth.  It was some powerful stuff.  It made me believe in transcendent states of mind.


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## ambush80 (Sep 28, 2018)

_"But one of the big reasons why you need to not believe everything you think is that we see what we want to see."_

Excellent advice.  I can't add anything to that for the freshly de-converted.


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## ambush80 (Sep 28, 2018)

_"If you put bad data into a computer, you will get bad results out."_

Data in: "We can live forever"
Output:"This life is just a blip in time.  Keep your eyes on the prize"


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## ambush80 (Sep 28, 2018)

_"I talk to God all the time."_

So did Muhammad Atta.


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## bullethead (Sep 28, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> No joke, the most powerful religious experience I had where I loved everybody and I felt like I was one with God and the Universe was when I was on psyhcedelic drugs.  That's the truth.  It was some powerful stuff.  It made me believe in transcendent states of mind.


I've never taken anything stronger than Tylenol PM, never had a cup of coffee, never had a ciggy touch my lips.
I dont feel like I've missed anything either.


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## ambush80 (Sep 28, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I've never taken anything stronger than Tylenol PM, never had a cup of coffee, never had a ciggy touch my lips.
> I dont feel like I've missed anything either.



Well, you have. I can't imagine being able to achieve those kinds of states without years of training like a monk, without chemicals. Maybe a near death experience might get someone there.  It's not necessary to "go there" ever, but it's interesting to know there there's a "There, there".


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## Brother David (Sep 28, 2018)

Please don't confuse religions with Faith in the Holy Trinity , Mohammed Atta was a religious Nut !!!!!


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## j_seph (Sep 28, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Who's Holy Spirit?
> I cannot find evidence of a single god that mankind has conjured up, let alone narrow the thousands to one specific god.
> 
> I have no doubt that you equate everything to the God of the bible. Probably the Gods of the OT and NT as convenience allows.
> ...





ambush80 said:


> I'm reading the thing now.  I'll bring up issues as i come to them.
> 
> *1) Don’t Believe Everything You Think*
> _*  *
> ...



Actually it was not something someone put in my mind. I learned about God through the foolishness of preaching. When Jesus came to me at 16 I would not move to accept him, even though I knew he was talking to me on that Sunday morning while my heart pounded out of my chest. Then 3 years later I knew what I felt and what I had to do. When I am at church and the holy spirit starts moving, when I get a trimbling to my leg, heart about to beat out of my chest knowing I have to move and so something, and get slap tore up.......it is not in my mind. Simply because I do not want to do it a lot of times but I know I have to. I once stood on the back pew at a church and testified to probably 100 teenagers. I can promis you this ole boy will not stand and talk to a group of 5 strangers and would have a hard time standing in front of 10 friends and speaking on my own.

You can be skeptical all you want, that screwy ark story, can it be proven that it did not happen? So one can believe or they cannot, that is part of Faith. Until one exercise their faith that measure that everyone has cannot grow. As your faith grows and you let go and let God it is amazing. Like Spotlite said, if they "THINK" they had it, then quit believing then odds are they probably did not have the real thing to start with. It was all in their mind. I can promise you that when you got it, and that Holy Spirit takes hold of you that you will have all the extraordinary proof you will ever need.


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## bullethead (Sep 28, 2018)

j_seph said:


> Actually it was not something someone put in my mind. I learned about God through the foolishness of preaching. When Jesus came to me at 16 I would not move to accept him, even though I knew he was talking to me on that Sunday morning while my heart pounded out of my chest. Then 3 years later I knew what I felt and what I had to do. When I am at church and the holy spirit starts moving, when I get a trimbling to my leg, heart about to beat out of my chest knowing I have to move and so something, and get slap tore up.......it is not in my mind. Simply because I do not want to do it a lot of times but I know I have to. I once stood on the back pew at a church and testified to probably 100 teenagers. I can promis you this ole boy will not stand and talk to a group of 5 strangers and would have a hard time standing in front of 10 friends and speaking on my own.
> 
> You can be skeptical all you want, that screwy ark story, can it be proven that it did not happen? So one can believe or they cannot, that is part of Faith. Until one exercise their faith that measure that everyone has cannot grow. As your faith grows and you let go and let God it is amazing. Like Spotlite said, if they "THINK" they had it, then quit believing then odds are they probably did not have the real thing to start with. It was all in their mind. I can promise you that when you got it, and that Holy Spirit takes hold of you that you will have all the extraordinary proof you will ever need.


Your experiences are all your own and I doubt either I or You can explain exactly why.

The Ark story, if there is any truth to it,  was a localized event.
It has been proven that no such event took place worldwide or wiped out thr life it claimed to have taken.


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## j_seph (Sep 28, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Your experiences are all your own and I doubt either I or You can explain exactly why.
> 
> The Ark story, if there is any truth to it,  was a localized event.
> *It has been proven that no such event took place worldwide or wiped out thr life it claimed to have taken.*


Where has this been proven that for "FACT"?


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## ambush80 (Sep 28, 2018)

j_seph said:


> Actually it was not something someone put in my mind. I learned about God through the foolishness of preaching. When Jesus came to me at 16 I would not move to accept him, even though I knew he was talking to me on that Sunday morning while my heart pounded out of my chest. Then 3 years later I knew what I felt and what I had to do. When I am at church and the holy spirit starts moving, when I get a trimbling to my leg, heart about to beat out of my chest knowing I have to move and so something, and get slap tore up.......it is not in my mind. Simply because I do not want to do it a lot of times but I know I have to. I once stood on the back pew at a church and testified to probably 100 teenagers. I can promis you this ole boy will not stand and talk to a group of 5 strangers and would have a hard time standing in front of 10 friends and speaking on my own.
> 
> You can be skeptical all you want, that screwy ark story, can it be proven that it did not happen? So one can believe or they cannot, that is part of Faith. Until one exercise their faith that measure that everyone has cannot grow. As your faith grows and you let go and let God it is amazing. Like Spotlite said, if they "THINK" they had it, then quit believing then odds are they probably did not have the real thing to start with. It was all in their mind. I can promise you that when you got it, and that Holy Spirit takes hold of you that you will have all the extraordinary proof you will ever need.



I believe you.  I don't want that.  I want to remain skeptical of superstitious claims. When I listen to believers they sound like people who don't care about making sense (just like the Bible said would happen). I prophesy that believers will not be swayed by rational argument.  

You can't reason people out of something they weren't reasoned into.

I want to keep reading scientific journals and listening to secular philosophers.  I want to stay grounded in reality and I want to convince others to do the same.  That's why I started this thread.  Unfortunately, we got completely off the rails and there has been very little discussion of what I originally asked about.


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## ambush80 (Sep 28, 2018)

j_seph said:


> Where has this been proven that for "FACT"?



Can you prove to me for a fact that if I keep dropping this rock that one time it won't fall up?


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## bullethead (Sep 28, 2018)

j_seph said:


> Where has this been proven that for "FACT"?


Like everything else, all of the available evidence points to that it is more likely than not that there was no global Flood during biblical timeline.
Since I and others have provided mounds of evidence that backs this up in previous threads that discussed this, I will leave it to you to search for those threads.


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## ambush80 (Sep 28, 2018)

Did a man resurrect after being dead for three days?  Probably not and I can't explain how one would.  This is what the world looks like when you let go of God.  You hear something that sounds screwy and you doubt it initially.  Then you want proof.  When you have enough proof, then you believe it.  

That's the kind of life that secularism can offer.  That's what replaces faith based belief; evidence based belief.  You use that method in every other part of your lives and it works great.


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## Brother David (Sep 28, 2018)

No a man didn't come back from dead after 3 days . The Son of God !!! 

Ask the Roman empire they believed he did !!! And I am Protestant ,not Catholic !!!


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## ambush80 (Sep 28, 2018)

Brother David said:


> No a man didn't come back from dead after 3 days . The Son of God !!!
> 
> Ask the Roman empire they believed he did !!! And I am Protestant ,not Catholic !!!



OK.  Fine.


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## bullethead (Sep 28, 2018)

Brother David said:


> No a man didn't come back from dead after 3 days . The Son of God !!!
> 
> Ask the Roman empire they believed he did !!! And I am Protestant ,not Catholic !!!


How fo you expect one of us to ask the Roman Empire anything??

NOWHERE outside of the Bible does it say...Nowhere in anyone's recorded history does it say...that Jesus arose from the dead. Not even the Jews that were there believed it!!!


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## Spotlite (Sep 28, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> My personal opinion is that you're taking the useful parts of the Biblical stories, the traditional wisdoms, and drinking the "bathwater" while misunderstanding the "baby".


I like personal options and consider them as such.


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## Spotlite (Sep 28, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> No joke, the most powerful religious experience I had where I loved everybody and I felt like I was one with God and the Universe was when I was on psyhcedelic drugs.  That's the truth.  It was some powerful stuff.  It made me believe in transcendent states of mind.


Maybe not a joke but that’s funny ?


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## Spotlite (Sep 28, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Can you prove to me for a fact that if I keep dropping this rock that one time it won't fall up?


No but you can’t rule it out.


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## bullethead (Sep 28, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> No but you can’t rule it out.


Oh boy


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## ambush80 (Sep 28, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> No but you can’t rule it out.



Oh boy, is right.

Would you put money on it?  How about jumping off a cliff?  How many times do you want to try that?


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## ambush80 (Sep 28, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> No but you can’t rule it out.



Tell you what.  If that ever, ever, ever, ever happens it will absolutely be something that needs serious looking into but calling it an act of God, or the Devil, or evil spirits, or a spell, or witchcraft, would be premature.  Don't you agree?  Do you think that if that ever happened that we should try to find a natural explanation for it first, until we exhaust all of the possibilities?


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## Spotlite (Sep 28, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Tell you what.  If that ever, ever, ever, ever happens it will absolutely be something that needs serious looking into but calling it an act of God, or the Devil, or evil spirits, or a spell, or witchcraft, would be premature.  Don't you agree?  Do you think that if that ever happened that we should try to find a natural explanation for it first, until we exhaust all of the possibilities?


Lol my only point is you can’t rule it out as a fact, meaning, you are not able to factually rule out God out based on possibilities. Nothing else meant by my comment.

Do I believe the rock will fall up, absolutely not.


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## bullethead (Sep 28, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Lol my only point is you can’t rule it out as a fact, meaning, you are not able to factually rule out God out based on possibilities. Nothing else meant by my comment.
> 
> Do I believe the rock will fall up, absolutely not.


In other words, everything imaginable exists except if it is not my god, and anything is possible even though I don't believe that for a minute.
10/4 Good Buddy!


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## Spotlite (Sep 28, 2018)

bullethead said:


> In other words, everything imaginable exists except if it is not my god, and anything is possible even though I don't believe that for a minute.
> 10/4 Good Buddy!


Nah I didn’t say that. Just saying that “most likely” is not facts.


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## bullethead (Sep 28, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Nah I didn’t say that. Just saying that “most likely” is not facts.


Ok.
So what is 100%
Nothing either for or against right?


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## ambush80 (Sep 28, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Nah I didn’t say that. Just saying that “most likely” is not facts.




They most certainly are. If one recognizes that the set of things that we don't know is infinite, which it is, then the things that we do know are only most likely.  A rock could fall up  or you could fall up off a cliff but we don't operate as if that's a possibility for obvious reasons.


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## Spotlite (Sep 28, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Ok.
> So what is 100%
> Nothing either for or against right?


To be factual, you must prove. I realize I’m talking to myself as well. You can convince enough to believe or not believe anything, but it’s still not factual.,


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## Spotlite (Sep 28, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> They most certainly are. If one recognizes that the set of things that we don't know is infinite, which it is, then the things that we do know are only most likely.  A rock could fall up  or you could fall up off a cliff but we don't operate as if that's a possibility for obvious reasons.


And that’s why I stated you couldn’t rule it out, the possibility is there until proven otherwise. However, I don’t believe it would fall uphill.


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## bullethead (Sep 28, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> To be factual, you must prove. I realize I’m talking to myself as well. You can convince enough to believe or not believe anything, but it’s still not factual.,


A world of illusion and make believe


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## bullethead (Sep 28, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> And that’s why I stated you couldn’t rule it out, the possibility is there until proven otherwise. However, I don’t believe it would fall uphill.


I get it now, that rock could sprout a propulsion engine that runs on ketchup(well that would be silly, it runs on the Lycopene IN the ketchup) and fly in any direction it chooses. It probably won't happen ever *times Infinity* But we don't know for sure that cannot happen therefore we cannot rule it out.
I will alert NORAD .


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## Spotlite (Sep 29, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I get it now, that rock could sprout a propulsion engine that runs on ketchup(well that would be silly, it runs on the Lycopene IN the ketchup) and fly in any direction it chooses. It probably won't happen ever *times Infinity* But we don't know for sure that cannot happen therefore we cannot rule it out.
> I will alert NORAD .


How many new species of fish or plants can be positively ruled out as a “no possibility”.............until they are discovered? 

Don’t let the rock fool you. I’d be shocked if it did, and probably run the other direction and certainly wouldn’t be the one reporting it. 

This is all about so called “facts” based on “most likely”. They’re still just assumptions.


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## Spotlite (Sep 29, 2018)

bullethead said:


> A world of illusion and make believe


It’s your story


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## bullethead (Sep 29, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> How many new species of fish or plants can be positively ruled out as a “no possibility”.............until they are discovered?
> 
> Don’t let the rock fool you. I’d be shocked if it did, and probably run the other direction and certainly wouldn’t be the one reporting it.
> 
> This is all about so called “facts” based on “most likely”. They’re still just assumptions.


According to you Everything Exists in any way imaginable merely because we cannot find one. You can be shocked, surprised, baffled and wowed, but as long as something is never found to be, it is.

I love it.


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## Spotlite (Sep 29, 2018)

bullethead said:


> According to you Everything Exists in any way imaginable merely because we cannot find one. You can be shocked, surprised, baffled and wowed, but as long as something is never found to be, it is.
> 
> I love it.


Lol no. I’m saying according to you nothing exist until it’s found. You will say it isn’t there. I’m just asking you how do you know that?


----------



## bullethead (Sep 29, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Lol no. I’m saying according to you nothing exist until it’s found. You will say it isn’t there. I’m just asking you how do you know that?


I honestly believe it is somewhere in the middle which is where we started.
That:
When we are able to search and gain information to the best of our abilities,  whether it is on a personal level or among the best minds in the agencies geared towards gaining knowledge, and we cannot find a shred of evidence to corroborate something's existence ...then it more likely than not does not exist.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 29, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Lol no. I’m saying according to you nothing exist until it’s found. You will say it isn’t there. I’m just asking you how do you know that?


Name something that in fact exists that hasn't been found.
Might exist, could exist, have faith something exists..... by definition means it hasn't been proven to exist. If it hasn't been proven to exist, as far as we know it doesn't.
So again, name something that in fact exists but hasn't been found.


----------



## Brother David (Sep 29, 2018)

Bigfoot


----------



## Spotlite (Sep 29, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Name something that in fact exists that hasn't been found.
> Might exist, could exist, have faith something exists..... by definition means it hasn't been proven to exist. If it hasn't been proven to exist, as far as we know it doesn't.
> So again, name something that in fact exists but hasn't been found.


My question is how do you know for certain something isn’t there because you haven’t found it?
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/09/180910142440.htm


----------



## Spotlite (Sep 29, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I honestly believe it is somewhere in the middle which is where we started.
> That:
> When we are able to search and gain information to the best of our abilities,  whether it is on a personal level or among the best minds in the agencies geared towards gaining knowledge, and we cannot find a shred of evidence to corroborate something's existence ...then it more likely than not does not exist.


I can agree with its “more than likely”, and my point is more than likely is either convincing or not, but definitely not factual.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 29, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I can agree with its “more than likely”, and my point is more than likely is either convincing or not, but definitely not factual.


It is truthful.
It is Scientific
It is how we are confident of what is and what isn't.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 29, 2018)

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/145/Proving_Non_Existence


----------



## bullethead (Sep 29, 2018)

.logical fallacy - a fallacy in logical argumentation

fallacy, false belief - a misconception resulting from incorrect reasoning

hysteron proteron - the logical fallacy of using as a true premise a proposition that is yet to be proved

ignoratio elenchi - the logical fallacy of supposing that an argument proving an irrelevant point has proved the point at issue

petitio, petitio principii - the logical fallacy of assuming the conclusion in the premises; begging the question

post hoc, post hoc ergo propter hoc - the logical fallacy of believing that temporal succession implies a causal relation


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 30, 2018)

Brother David said:


> Bigfoot




Yes, Brother David.  Exactly.


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 30, 2018)

bullethead said:


> .logical fallacy - a fallacy in logical argumentation
> 
> fallacy, false belief - a misconception resulting from incorrect reasoning
> 
> ...




You can't reason people out of a position that they didn't arrive at by reason.  You have to offer them a better alternative to the un-reasoned position that they've taken.  That's a tall order because you're competing with Divine Revelation.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 30, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> You can't reason people out of a position that they didn't arrive at by reason.  You have to offer them a better alternative to the un-reasoned position that they've taken.  That's a tall order because you're competing with Divine Revelation.


The link I provided above breaks it down pretty good:
Note: the Tip given below #2 is a particularly great test to be able prove an outside source is really involved in someone's life.

Proving Non-Existence

Description: Demanding that one proves the non-existence of something in place of providing adequate evidence for the existence of that something.  Although it may be possible to prove non-existence in special situations, such as showing that a container does not contain certain items, one cannot prove universal or absolute non-existence.  The proof of existence must come from those who make the claims.

Logical Form:

I cannot prove that X exists, so you prove that it doesn’t.

If you can’t, X exists.

Example #1:

God exists.  Until you can prove otherwise, I will continue to believe that he does.

Explanation: There are decent reasons to believe in the existence of God, but, “because the existence of God cannot be disproven”, is not one of them.

Example #2:

Sheila: I know Elvis’ ghost is visiting me in my dreams.

Ron: Yeah, I don’t think that really is his ghost.

Sheila: Prove that it’s not!

Explanation: Once again we are dealing with confusion of probability and possibility.  The inability to, “prove”, in any sense of the word, that the ghost of Elvis is not visiting Sheila in her dreams is an impossible request because there is no test that proves the existence and presence of a ghost, so no way to prove the negative or the non-existence.  It is up to Sheila to provide proof of this claim, or at least acknowledge that actually being visited by Elvis’ ghost is just a possibility, no matter how slim that possibility is.

Exception: If Ron were to say, “That is impossible”, “there is no way you are being visited”, or make some other claim that rules out any possibility no matter how remote (or crazy), then Sheila would be in the right to ask him for proof -- as long as she is making a point that he cannot know that for certain, and not actually expecting him to produce proof.

Tip: If you think you are being visited by aliens, gods, spirits, ghosts, or any other magical beings, just ask them for information that you can verify, specifically with a neutral third-party that would prove their existence.  This would be simple for any advanced alien race, any god or heavenly being.  Some ideas of things to ask for:

future lottery numbers (of course you will give all your winnings to charity)

answers to scientific problems that do have scientific answers, but aren’t yet known

exact details of major future events

But if these beings just tell you things such as:

passages / ideas from the Bible

whether you should take that new job or not

where you left your car keys

that they really exist, and others will continue to doubt you

that you should never question their existence

...or anything else which is just as likely to come from your imagination that is untestable and unfalsifiable, then you might want to reconsider the fact that your being of choice is really paying you visits.


----------



## Brother David (Sep 30, 2018)

Just wanted to everyone know, that I opened up thread today in my office , during my quiet time . I asked for Yaweh to annoint myself today and to pour out Blessings on All !!! 

Agape to All!!!


----------



## bullethead (Sep 30, 2018)

Brother David said:


> Just wanted to everyone know, that I opened up thread today in my office , during my quiet time . I asked for Yaweh to annoint myself today and to pour out Blessings on All !!!
> 
> Agape to All!!!


So you ask Yaweh not Jesus?

See the tip suggested above in post #68.
Ask your god what the name of my Son's dog is and post it on here.
Surely your God would know this and you would not. So if indeed you converse with your god and your god hears you and in fact answers prayers, you and your god will be able to do what no one else in here or ever could do for me and actually provide evidence that I can believe.


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 30, 2018)

bullethead said:


> So you ask Yaweh not Jesus?
> 
> See the tip suggested above in post #68.
> Ask your god what the name of my Son's dog is and post it on here.
> Surely your God would know this and you would not. So if indeed you converse with your god and your god hears you and in fact answers prayers, you and your god will be able to do what no one else in here or ever could do for me and actually provide evidence that I can believe.



Believers say that God doesn't prove himself to you just because you ask Him to, but then they say that He will show Himself to you if you simply ask.  So I did an experiment.  I said "God, I really want to know if you're real or not.  Please reveal yourself to me."  Then the thought occurred to me (maybe because God was speaking to me, he sounded like this, by the way; some reverb effect and a slight British accent):


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="



" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe> )


that if I simply believe in God........ then I will believe in God.

How could I have been so blind?


----------



## bullethead (Sep 30, 2018)

A realistic write up about Yahweh

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/about-god-in-judaism


----------



## bullethead (Sep 30, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Believers say that God doesn't prove himself to you just because you ask Him to, but then they say that He will show Himself to you if you simply ask.  So I did an experiment.  I said "God, I really want to know if you're real or not.  Please reveal yourself to me."  Then the thought occurred to me (maybe because God was speaking to me) that if I simply believe in God........ then I will believe in God.
> 
> How could I have been so blind?


I tried that. Didn't work. Every time I wanted to simply believe in god it became more complicated for the same reasons.
The claims, contraditions, untruths, inaccuracies, stories written by humans NOT A GOD that exist nowhere but in a book that took 1500 years to assemble from mostly anonymous and unknown authors that were chosen by humans while other writings were not chosen and purposely destroyed just seems to keep getting in the way.

So, now I ask for additional proof. If in fact Brother David communicates with his god and receives answers from his god, surely the name of a dog would be no stumbling block for an all knowing diety,  especially if that diety will gain a follower.


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 30, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I tried that. Didn't work. Every time I wanted to simply believe in god it became more complicated for the same reasons.
> The claims, contraditions, untruths, inaccuracies, stories written by humans NOT A GOD that exist nowhere but in a book that took 1500 years to assemble from mostly anonymous and unknown authors that were chosen by humans while other writings were not chosen and purposely destroyed just seems to keep getting in the way.
> 
> So, now I ask for additional proof. If in fact Brother David communicates with his god and receives answers from his god, surely the name of a dog would be no stumbling block for an all knowing diety,  especially if that diety will gain a follower.




Yeah, I tried it too.  When I de-converted, the whole world was suddenly like that.  I couldn't believe anything without good proof anymore.  I don't believe that we know the whole story of how evolution works.  I don't believe that the Multiverse Theory is 100% true.  I've done the Double Slit experiment and I've tried to understand the math behind Quantum Physics and Spooky Action that describes them but I can't.  Now, when someone asks me "Will this rock fall down when I drop it?" I will still answer "Yes" and I would bet my life on it, but my answers are always a best guess. 

It's as honest as I can be.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Sep 30, 2018)

Wonder why God appeared as a burning bush??? Strange to me


----------



## ky55 (Sep 30, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I tried that. Didn't work. Every time I wanted to simply believe in god it became more complicated for the same reasons.



Cognitive dissonance is the best way I can explain it.


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 30, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> Wonder why God appeared as a burning bush??? Strange to me



http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/PlantFinder/PlantFinderDetails.aspx?kempercode=c490


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="



" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 30, 2018)

ky55 said:


> Cognitive dissonance is the best way I can explain it.



Not necessarily.  If one is open or prone to believe in supernatural phenomena or is superstitious, then beliefs about supernatural beings and forces are consistent with their proclivity.  You have to recognize that they view the world with two different systems. One where they use natural law to determine what's real (like everybody else does), and another one in which they claim to use some kind of Extra Sensory Perception that is immeasurable with instruments and undetectable to anyone else but the experiencer.  Their beliefs are consistent because they believe in their own extra sensory abilities.


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 30, 2018)

I'd guess that some people are more prone to the forces of this evolutionary trait.  Just like any other trait humans have, some people will have a stronger tendency to this trait than others.  Skepticism is probably another trait that people have in varying degrees.  I'd imagine people with strong proclivity to skepticism will be less likely to be religious or superstitious.


----------



## ambush80 (Sep 30, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> I'd guess that some people are more prone to the forces of this evolutionary trait.  Just like any other trait humans have, some people will have a stronger tendency to this trait than others.  Skepticism is probably another trait that people have in varying degrees.  I'd imagine people with strong proclivity to skepticism will be less likely to be religious or superstitious.



I meant to post this in the other thread but it applies to this one, too.


----------



## Brother David (Sep 30, 2018)

The Godhead is three in one . Even if you don't covet my prayers for you , I will still pray for . Never question my Faith it is ROCK SOLID !!!!! I have quit searching for answers that we have no answer to . Just like I don't look for Bigfoot ! Modern scholars say this ,we now believe that ,doesn't work for me ! Jesus and his works may seem impossible to you , but I have no doubt !!!!! Not only me but millions around the world now and millions before me and after me !!!! Why when we are ignorant of or to something we try to nick-pick ? Possibly because we over analylise the obvious !!!

If a tree falls in the Woods with No one around , does it make a sound ? Common sense says yes , but there's someone out there that will argue you down the other way!

Which came first , the chicken or the egg ?
Agnostic people don't know ?
Athesist say Egg :-(
Christian believe the chicken , we believe all things are Created by God !!

Back to the Original thought , if I am wrong, all is well , if I am right there is a **** ?  I don't like Gambling with life !!! 

As for me and my house we will serve Lord!!!!


----------



## bullethead (Sep 30, 2018)

Brother David said:


> The Godhead is three in one . Even if you don't covet my prayers for you , I will still pray for . Never question my Faith it is ROCK SOLID !!!!! I have quit searching for answers that we have no answer to . Just like I don't look for Bigfoot ! Modern scholars say this ,we now believe that ,doesn't work for me ! Jesus and his works may seem impossible to you , but I have no doubt !!!!! Not only me but millions around the world now and millions before me and after me !!!! Why when we are ignorant of or to something we try to nick-pick ? Possibly because we over analylise the obvious !!!
> 
> If a tree falls in the Woods with No one around , does it make a sound ? Common sense says yes , but there's someone out there that will argue you down the other way!
> 
> ...


How do you figure that there are only two options?
If you are right..great for you.
If you are wrong and there is nothing, you are still dead and you won't know any different.
If you are wrong and should have been worshipping something that will punish you for all of eternity for not worshiping it(like your loving god will do), then all certainly is not "well".
Have you asked your god what the name of my Son's dog is?
Has he gotten back you yet?
I mean ask and ye shall receive and all that...


----------



## bullethead (Sep 30, 2018)

Brother David said:


> The Godhead is three in one . Even if you don't covet my prayers for you , I will still pray for . Never question my Faith it is ROCK SOLID !!!!! I have quit searching for answers that we have no answer to . Just like I don't look for Bigfoot ! Modern scholars say this ,we now believe that ,doesn't work for me ! Jesus and his works may seem impossible to you , but I have no doubt !!!!! Not only me but millions around the world now and millions before me and after me !!!! Why when we are ignorant of or to something we try to nick-pick ? Possibly because we over analylise the obvious !!!
> 
> If a tree falls in the Woods with No one around , does it make a sound ? Common sense says yes , but there's someone out there that will argue you down the other way!
> 
> ...


So it is the equivalent of Your Father, You, and your Uncle, and while your friends and family all address you each separately they only use the picture of one of you for family photos, drivers licenses, yearbooks, wedding albums etc etc..?
I'm not understanding the 1=3, 3=1 thing.
It ALMOST sounds as if a bit of intellectual dishonesty is involved.


----------



## ky55 (Sep 30, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Not necessarily.  If one is open or prone to believe in supernatural phenomena or is superstitious, then beliefs about supernatural beings and forces are consistent with their proclivity.  You have to recognize that they view the world with two different systems. One where they use natural law to determine what's real (like everybody else does), and another one in which they claim to use some kind of Extra Sensory Perception that is immeasurable with instruments and undetectable to anyone else but the experiencer.  Their beliefs are consistent because they believe in their own extra sensory abilities.




I wasn’t very clear with that post. The cognitive dissonance was my personal issue with belief. 
I suppose I just tried to believe myth and superstition for as long as I could, after never seeing one single thing in my entire life to support it. 
I can’t view the world by two different systems.


----------



## Brother David (Sep 30, 2018)

Intellectual dishonesty is trying to compare people to God . 

When we struggle for legitimatecy we grasp for whatever life line we can !!!

I have no agenda , I have offered you God , I am not trying to sell books nor am I trying to gain tenure to indoctrinate young influential minds . I have given you evidence of God , which you rebute isn't real . Your rebutle is not based on your evidence but on the words of other . I have studied both sides of the equations and came to the conclusion that God is Real . From that conclusion I have had daily interaction with a Loving God that cares for me deeper than I can imagine ! My life now has the meaning your in search of !


----------



## bullethead (Sep 30, 2018)

Brother David said:


> Intellectual dishonesty is trying to compare people to God .


I do not know a god exists. You are unable to remotely prove any sort of god exists. If I were a believer in a god and compared people to it, then you would be onto something.


Brother David said:


> I have no agenda , I have offered you God , I am not trying to sell books nor am I trying to gain tenure to indoctrinate young influential minds . I have given you evidence of God , which you rebute isn't real . Your rebutle is not based on your evidence but on the words of other . I have studied both sides of the equations and came to the conclusion that God is Real . From that conclusion I have had daily interaction with a Loving God that cares for me deeper than I can imagine ! My life now has the meaning your in search of !


You offered me your words. You literally handed me nothing and are trying not only trying to tell me it is something but expect me to go along with it and you act as if I am being dishonest.

There is no evidence for me to refute. I use my words and ask you to explain your claims and you avoid answering me what I ask.

Since you constantly claim that you have daily interaction with your god I have asked you to prove it to me with getting the name of my Sons dog.

Either your god doesn't know, and he is not much of a god.
Or
He wont tell you, and that is just ignorant.
Or
You are fibbing about the relationship you have with your god.

Now, I am glad that whatever you think is real works for you, but when you tell me what I should think and believe I expect you to be able to back it up with facts, not ignore, avoid, deflect or take the conversation in another direction.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 30, 2018)

Brother David said:


> Back to the Original thought , if I am wrong, all is well , if I am right there is a **** ?  I don't like Gambling with life !!!
> As for me and my house we will serve Lord!!!!



This fear of He!!? This isn't the only reason you believe is it? Wouldn't eternal life be enough of a reason to believe? 
Why not just preach eternal life as a reason instead of the threat of eternal fire? Just the eternal torment of being separated from God.


----------



## Brother David (Sep 30, 2018)

Wow how people can miss the total context of a quote .

Why not Preach the whole Gospel , is there something Wrong with that . Christ himself spoke of eternal ****ation (Mark 9:45 ) I am almost positive he didn't miss speak !!!


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 30, 2018)

Brother David said:


> Intellectual dishonesty is trying to compare people to God .
> 
> When we struggle for legitimatecy we grasp for whatever life line we can !!!
> 
> I have no agenda , I have offered you God , I am not trying to sell books nor am I trying to gain tenure to indoctrinate young influential minds . I have given you evidence of God , which you rebute isn't real . Your rebutle is not based on your evidence but on the words of other . I have studied both sides of the equations and came to the conclusion that God is Real . From that conclusion I have had daily interaction with a Loving God that cares for me deeper than I can imagine ! My life now has the meaning your in search of !


I find it interesting that once you came to the conclusion that God is real THEN you started having daily interactions with him.
I think you mean YOUR life now has the meaning YOU were in search of.
Do you understand that almost all of us here were once believers?


----------



## Brother David (Oct 1, 2018)

Walt I believe your referring to Hebrews 6:4-6 , when you speak of ,almost all of Us . Allow to rephrase , Once I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior , I began to have a more intimate relationship with God . God was always there , I was just not listening . 

Thank you Lord Jesus for your Mercy and Grace , Hallelujah to Lamb of God!!!!!


----------



## Brother David (Oct 1, 2018)

Men I must bow out for a few days. Don't worry I will be back and continue to do the work of our Lord . Please be in prayer for the Lord to touch everyone of Us .

If you Men get a chance look up Australia's Gorvernor General Bill Hayden


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 1, 2018)

Brother David said:


> I have given you evidence of God , which you rebute isn't real . Your rebutle is not based on your evidence but on the words of other .


Yup!!


----------



## bullethead (Oct 1, 2018)

Brother David said:


> Men I must bow out for a few days. Don't worry I will be back and continue to do the work of our Lord . Please be in prayer for the Lord to touch everyone of Us .
> 
> If you Men get a chance look up Australia's Gorvernor General Bill Hayden


You dont need that much time to work on post #86 do you? Or is this another diversion and ignore?


----------



## bullethead (Oct 1, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Yup!!


If the words in the bible is from "others" then I agree.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 1, 2018)

Brother David said:


> Intellectual dishonesty is trying to compare people to God .
> 
> When we struggle for legitimatecy we grasp for whatever life line we can !!!
> 
> I have no agenda , I have offered you God , I am not trying to sell books nor am I trying to gain tenure to indoctrinate young influential minds . I have given you evidence of God , which you rebute isn't real . Your rebutle is not based on your evidence but on the words of other . I have studied both sides of the equations and came to the conclusion that God is Real . From that conclusion I have had daily interaction with a Loving God that cares for me deeper than I can imagine ! My life now has the meaning your in search of !





> Your rebutle is not based on your evidence but on the words of other .


Completely false.
As for words from other -
Words from you are words from other.
Words from your pastor/preacher/congregation are words from other.
Words from the Bible are words from other.
Words from any Christian are words from other......
NOT using any "words from other" (including you) tell us your evidence for God.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 1, 2018)

Brother David said:


> Wow how people can miss the total context of a quote .
> 
> Why not Preach the whole Gospel , is there something Wrong with that . Christ himself spoke of eternal ****ation (Mark 9:45 ) I am almost positive he didn't
> miss speak !!!



Not from around these parts I see.  Welcome.


----------



## Brother David (Oct 1, 2018)

Just for the Nasayers ! Our Church is in revival for the next two weeks and I will focus my attention in this direction . Don't worry I will be back


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 1, 2018)

Brother David said:


> Just for the Nasayers ! Our Church is in revival for the next two weeks and I will focus my attention in this direction . Don't worry I will be back



Come back revived.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 1, 2018)

> Brother David sa Just for the Nasayers ! Our Church is in revival for the next two weeks and I will focus my attention in this direction . Don't worry I will be back





ambush80 said:


> Come back revived.


Come back with answers to our questions. Enjoy your revival.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 1, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Come back with answers to our questions. Enjoy your revival.



He won't find them at revival.  Revival is designed to get one's mind as far away from the kinds of questions that we ask as possible.  It's designed to fire up older parts of the brain.  Fried chicken will make you lose your mind.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 1, 2018)

Brother David said:


> Just for the Nasayers ! Our Church is in revival for the next two weeks and I will focus my attention in this direction . Don't worry I will be back



In all honesty, you're wasting your time.  Be better spent giving your testimony to those with an open/semi-open mind.  These boys have bricked themselves in and are content.  Better off blowing against the wind.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 1, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> In all honesty, you're wasting your time.  Be better spent giving your testimony to those with an open/semi-open mind.  These boys have bricked themselves in and are content.  Better off blowing against the wind.


Translation:
These boys are pretty wise to us not being able to back up our claims.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 1, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Translation:
> These boys are pretty wise to us not being able to back up our claims.



Case in point.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 1, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> In all honesty, you're wasting your time.  Be better spent giving your testimony to those with an open/semi-open mind.  These boys have bricked themselves in and are content.  Better off blowing against the wind.


I agree with you. 
If Brother David's intention is to use the same 'ol same 'ol to change our minds then yes might as well be blowing against the wind.
If Brother David's intention is to discuss/debate what he believes and why, then he's in the right place.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 1, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Case in point.


I want to live up to my reputation.


----------



## ky55 (Oct 1, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I agree with you.
> If Brother David's intention is to use the same 'ol same 'ol to change our minds then yes might as well be blowing against the wind.
> If Brother David's intention is to discuss/debate what he believes and why, then he's in the right place.



I think Brother David is more comfortable with a flock of sheep corralled  into an amen corner.
Maybe he can scare some folks into submission with the usual he11-Fire and brimstone that revivals are known for, and then come back and tell us how many souls he’s saved.
He’s done nothing here other than preaching so far, so I don’t expect anything else.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 1, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I want to live up to my reputation.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 1, 2018)

ky55 said:


> I think Brother David is more comfortable with a flock of sheep corralled  into an amen corner.
> Maybe he can scare some folks into submission with the usual he11-Fire and brimstone that revivals are known for, and then come back and tell us how many souls he’s saved.
> He’s done nothing here other than preaching so far, so I don’t expect anything else.


I haven't decided yet if Brother David  is just so fired up about God that he wants to share (which I can appreciate)....
OR
If he feels its his Christian duty to try and convert the heathens....
Maybe both.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 1, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I haven't decided yet if Brother David  is just so fired up about God that he wants to share (which I can appreciate)....
> OR
> If he feels its his Christian duty to try and convert the heathens....
> Maybe both.


He is getting more to think about than we are. And that is not at all upsetting me.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 1, 2018)

bullethead said:


> If the words in the bible is from "others" then I agree.


So you’re admitting you’ve done zero research of your own other than agreeing with something someone else write down as there study, test, etc and that’s your proven facts and evidence? And you claim no faith.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 1, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> So you’re admitting you’ve done zero research of your own other than agreeing with something someone else write down as there study, test, etc and that’s your proven facts and evidence? And you claim no faith.


You cannot be THAT...that...that...I dont want to say the words.

If that is what you came away with based off of my years of contributions in here, then I regret having given you more credit than you deserve.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 1, 2018)

bullethead said:


> You cannot be THAT...that...that...I dont want to say the words.
> 
> If that is what you came away with based off of my years of contributions in here, then I regret having given you more credit than you deserve.


Just saying you go with the facts. You either must prove the facts or have faith they’re correct. And if you haven’t proven it yourself, you’re in fact relying on “others words”.


----------



## red neck richie (Oct 1, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> No joke, the most powerful religious experience I had where I loved everybody and I felt like I was one with God and the Universe was when I was on psyhcedelic drugs.  That's the truth.  It was some powerful stuff.  It made me believe in transcendent states of mind.


That explains a lot.  Your still trippin bro.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 1, 2018)

red neck richie said:


> That explains a lot.  Your still trippin bro.


I’m thinking there’s more to the story


----------



## bullethead (Oct 1, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Just saying you go with the facts. You either must prove the facts or have faith they’re correct. And if you haven’t proven it yourself, you’re in fact relying on “others words”.


If you do not know what faith means you should not use it to make your point.
You have now posted twice in succession that has me thinking much less of you.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 1, 2018)

> ambush80 said:





> No joke, the most powerful religious experience I had where I loved everybody and I felt like I was one with God and the Universe was when I was on psyhcedelic drugs.  That's the truth.  It was some powerful stuff.  It made me believe in transcendent states of mind.





red neck richie said:


> That explains a lot.  Your still trippin bro.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 1, 2018)

Spotlite, in light of your recent posts I cannot expect you to clearly understand the contents of either of these links. I just hope you try.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/starts...at-the-wall-street-journal-says/#6b744d153acd

http://www.slate.com/articles/healt..._authority_and_the_orderliness_of_nature.html


----------



## bullethead (Oct 1, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


>


Yeah, no acid dropping hippies have ever claimed to see and talk to god.


----------



## red neck richie (Oct 1, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


>


Nice hair. Under the arms. Walt my Dad was at Woodstock and is a born again Christian now. Go figure right? I would love to tell you how it came to pass if you are interested pm me.


----------



## redwards (Oct 1, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> ……….
> That's why I started this thread. Unfortunately, we got completely off the rails and there has been very little discussion of what I originally asked about.



With that statement in mind, and to bring the thread back to the central topic, let’s add some questions for your discussion….for those who “de-converted”…

Before you “de-converted” …did you believe you had a soul?
After you “de-converted”…did/do you believe you have a soul?

Do you believe this scripture to be true?

*Ecclesiastes 3:1-2

1There is an occasion for everything,
and a time for every activity under heaven:
2 a time to give birth and a time to die;
a time to plant and a time to uproot;*​At death, what do you believe happens to the soul?


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 2, 2018)

redwards said:


> With that statement in mind, and to bring the thread back to the central topic, let’s add some questions for your discussion….for those who “de-converted”…
> 
> Before you “de-converted” …did you believe you had a soul?
> After you “de-converted”…did/do you believe you have a soul?
> ...





> Before you “de-converted” …did you believe you had a soul?


Yes


> After you “de-converted”…did/do you believe you have a soul?


Yes but with a different understanding of what a "soul" is.


> Do you believe this scripture to be true?


Yes in general.


> At death, what do you believe happens to the soul


Decomposition.


----------



## j_seph (Oct 2, 2018)

At death, what do you believe happens to the soul Decomposition 
Why have a soul? What is the need for a soul? 
If it is only going to decompose at death then there is no need for it.

What is this different understanding of Soul that you discovered?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 2, 2018)

j_seph said:


> At death, what do you believe happens to the soul Decomposition
> Why have a soul? What is the need for a soul?
> If it is only going to decompose at death then there is no need for it.
> 
> What is this different understanding of Soul that you discovered?


I believe that if one doesn't have a spiritual awakening, his soul dies when he dies. Salvation offers eternal life vs everlasting death.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 2, 2018)

Does God call more than once? Is it possible that when one quits believing, God can call them again? "A time for everything"
"a *time* to break down, and a *time* to build up;"

Has every person who knew God but decided not to worship him been turned over to a reprobate mind?
I guess what I'm asking is can God harden someone or a nation and then call them back later?


----------



## bullethead (Oct 2, 2018)

j_seph said:


> At death, what do you believe happens to the soul Decomposition
> Why have a soul? What is the need for a soul?
> If it is only going to decompose at death then there is no need for it.
> 
> What is this different understanding of Soul that you discovered?


Soul is the spark that gives us life. It is energy.  Energy is neither created or destroyed but just changes forms. When we die that energy goes elsewhere. Maybe into a new born, maybe into the potted plant on the table, maybe into the rechargeable battery in the flashlight in the drawer...then it goes somewhere else, and somewhere else...


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 2, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Soul is the spark that gives us life. It is energy.  Energy is neither created or destroyed but just changes forms. When we die that energy goes elsewhere. Maybe into a new born, maybe into the potted plant on the table, maybe into the rechargeable battery in the flashlight in the drawer...then it goes somewhere else, and somewhere else...



Is it unified and returns to where it came?


----------



## bullethead (Oct 2, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> Is it unified and returns to where it came?


I don't know where it came??
My best educated guess is that it started at the Big Bang and since that is a past event I dont thinks it can return to that. It continues on varying in form where needed, as needed, and moves along in whole or in parts when that source is over.
You typing is using energy. Where it goes?? I don't know.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 2, 2018)

bullethead said:


> If you do not know what faith means you should not use it to make your point.
> You have now posted twice in succession that has me thinking much less of you.


Chances are........I don’t worry about petty stuff like that.....you’re free to think as you please 

I know what faith is. You must understand how to use a word in every day language and think outside the box. Faith in general is “I have faith (confidence) that my check is going to be deposited” Faith from a religious stand point is something you lack. Difference is noted. But since you rely on something outside religion, we are taking in general terms, not Wikipedia. 

Now stop side tracking, what evidence do you have that is solely yours and not something that you have faith, confidence, assurance, or just simply believe is correct?


----------



## bullethead (Oct 2, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Chances are........I don’t worry about petty stuff like that.....you’re free to think as you please
> 
> I know what faith is. You must understand how to use a word in every day language and think outside the box. Faith in general is “I have faith (confidence) that my check is going to be deposited” Faith from a religious stand point is something you lack. Difference is noted. But since you rely on something outside religion, we are taking in general terms, not Wikipedia.
> 
> Now stop side tracking, what evidence do you have that is solely yours and not something that you have faith, confidence, assurance, or just simply believe is correct?


I have faith that you couldn't understand my answer.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 2, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Spotlite, in light of your recent posts I cannot expect you to clearly understand the contents of either of these links. I just hope you try.
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/starts...at-the-wall-street-journal-says/#6b744d153acd
> 
> http://www.slate.com/articles/healt..._authority_and_the_orderliness_of_nature.html


Try this one 

https://www.quora.com/Does-faith-have-any-meaning-or-purpose-outside-of-religion-or-belief-in-god-s

You’re stuck on religious faith.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 2, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I have faith that you couldn't understand my answer.


End of discussion. You’re at the level again that you normally resort to when you don’t have answers.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 2, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> End of discussion. You’re at the level again that you normally resort to when you don’t have answers.


This discussion ended last night. You just didnt realize it.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 2, 2018)

The small novels of my journeys that have gotten me where I am today regarding religion litter these threads over the years. It ranges from childhood experiences in church, talks with clergy, death of family and me questioning whatever may be listening. Those are not 4 events but hundreds of events  that span 40 of my 49 years on the planet.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 3, 2018)

j_seph said:


> At death, what do you believe happens to the soul Decomposition
> Why have a soul? What is the need for a soul?
> If it is only going to decompose at death then there is no need for it.
> 
> What is this different understanding of Soul that you discovered?


My understanding is that a "soul" is not a body part like a heart or a leg or a spleen.
A "soul" is basically your personality. Its your thoughts/feelings/etc.
As for not needing it if its just going to decompose...….
You don't need 10 fingers or 2 legs or any legs or 2 eyes...……. all decompose yet we have them.

How often have you heard "little Jimmy or Jenny has an "old soul".
Does that literally mean they have a soul that is older than them or does it mean Jimmy or Jenny acts/views things as an older person would?


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 3, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Yes
> 
> Yes but with a different understanding of what a "soul" is.
> 
> ...


I don’t want to offend any fellow believers, I have a different understanding than most when it comes to death and readily admit it doesn’t automatically make me right. Just the way I understand it.

I’ve attended two funerals in the last week and in both, the people are already dancing in heaven and reunited with family that’s gone on before. I’m not saying they won’t eventually get there, I just struggle that other parts of the Bible are overlooked to get them there at death.

If I read correctly it tells me that when God breathed into the nostrils of man, it became a living soul. At death, that breath returns back God and the body returns to dust. I read also that the dead know nothing, they are “asleep”.

I realize that to be absent from the body is to be with Christ, but I don’t believe that means automatically in heaven at death. Could there be a resting place for the soul? I don’t have any reason to not believe that.

One aspect of the resurrection of Jesus is that same spirit that raised him will raise the believer. Then you have the second coming where the dead in Christ rise first and changed.

Like you, I see the soul in a different understanding than probably most. But I also see the soul as eternal, it doesn’t die. Again, just my understanding of it that I keep to myself and realize I may be wrong.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 3, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Soul is the spark that gives us life. It is energy.  Energy is neither created or destroyed but just changes forms. When we die that energy goes elsewhere. Maybe into a new born, maybe into the potted plant on the table, maybe into the rechargeable battery in the flashlight in the drawer...then it goes somewhere else, and somewhere else...


For me, your "soul" and the "energy that is you" is 2 different things but I agree with your energy assessment.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 3, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> For me, your "soul" and the "energy that is you" is 2 different things but I agree with your energy assessment.


I think the the soul is the spark of energy that ignites that  keeps our individual energy burning while alive. Once dead there is nothing to keep lit.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 3, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I don’t want to offend any fellow believers, I have a different understanding than most when it comes to death and readily admit it doesn’t automatically make me right. Just the way I understand it.
> 
> I’ve attended two funerals in the last week and in both, the people are already dancing in heaven and reunited with family that’s gone on before. I’m not saying they won’t eventually get there, I just struggle that other parts of the Bible are overlooked to get them there at death.
> 
> ...


So, how is someone who is in heaven perceived?
Are they perpetually at the prime of their life or are they as is at death? Will a baby ever mature? Do the elderly stay old? Are cripples and the sick as new? Is everyone a whisp of smoke in spirit form with a new sense of unlimited knowledge? Or are the low IQ pain in the donkeys unavoidable for all of eternity? Do you literally have to put up with your ex mother in law or the guy your wife left you for forever???


----------



## j_seph (Oct 3, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> My understanding is that a "soul" is not a body part like a heart or a leg or a spleen.
> *A "soul" is basically your personality. Its your thoughts/feelings/etc.*
> As for not needing it if its just going to decompose...….
> You don't need 10 fingers or 2 legs or any legs or 2 eyes...……. all decompose yet we have them.
> ...



Everyone has a personality, thoughts, and feelings. Even animals to some degree all in which drive from the brain. To me the soul started when God first put breathe into Adams nostrils. When we are in the womb we are a living being and need no air to breathe. When we come out of the womb I feel God puts that first breathe into our lungs, the life and the soul to make that baby live. We carry that soul with us and in your lifetime you have 2 choices to make. Due to the sensor here it is either North or South. When one reaches whatever age of accountability and receives conviction that is when one must make that decision. Will they have other opportunities if they deny it? Maybe but not promised. Have seen many in nursing homes that love Jesus, can give you their testimony. The same people cannot tell you if they ate today, do not know their own family. Some cannot even remember their own name that they have had since birth. However Glory be To God they can tell you about Jesus, his saving grace, and when they were saved and where at. Funny Alzheimers and dementia can take away their entire lives from their memory but it cannot take away Gods Grace. To look at someone in a casket, to see peace on their face vs. seeing no peace is another reason I believe the way I do. Our 23 year old nephew killed 6 weeks ago. He had a peaceful look on his face, some said he was saved and okay just from seeing him. No one knew at the time where he stood but later found out he was saved.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 3, 2018)

j_seph said:


> Everyone has a personality, thoughts, and feelings. Even animals to some degree all in which drive from the brain. To me the soul started when God first put breathe into Adams nostrils. When we are in the womb we are a living being and need no air to breathe. When we come out of the womb I feel God puts that first breathe into our lungs, the life and the soul to make that baby live. We carry that soul with us and in your lifetime you have 2 choices to make. Due to the sensor here it is either North or South. When one reaches whatever age of accountability and receives conviction that is when one must make that decision. Will they have other opportunities if they deny it? Maybe but not promised. Have seen many in nursing homes that love Jesus, can give you their testimony. The same people cannot tell you if they ate today, do not know their own family. Some cannot even remember their own name that they have had since birth. However Glory be To God they can tell you about Jesus, his saving grace, and when they were saved and where at. Funny Alzheimers and dementia can take away their entire lives from their memory but it cannot take away Gods Grace. To look at someone in a casket, to see peace on their face vs. seeing no peace is another reason I believe the way I do. Our 23 year old nephew killed 6 weeks ago. He had a peaceful look on his face, some said he was saved and okay just from seeing him. No one knew at the time where he stood but later found out he was saved.


Didn't humans have souls prior to 6000 years ago?


----------



## bullethead (Oct 3, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Try this one
> 
> https://www.quora.com/Does-faith-have-any-meaning-or-purpose-outside-of-religion-or-belief-in-god-s
> 
> You’re stuck on religious faith.


This answer from the link that you provided is about right..



> If you define faith as the belief in something despite the lack of evidence ( or the presence of conflicting evidence) then it is a terrible way to get to the truth of anything. Sometimes, you might be correct by chance. Sometimes incorrect. But you could believe pretty much anything you chose to on the basis of faith.
> I would dispute some of the other answers that many day to day activities need faith - such as turning they key in your car and having faith that it will start.
> 
> That is NOT faith; it is reasonable expectation. You know the car was designed so that the engine should start when you turn the key. You've done it countless times before successfully. You see people start their cars many times every day in real life and depicted on TV and films. You have a reasonable expectation that it will start, but it is NOT based on faith. Can you be 100% certain the car will start? No, the battery could have gone flat, or some other fault could have developed. But for the most part, it will start when you turn the key, and you have considerable evidence that it probably will. Evidence, not faith.
> ...


----------



## 660griz (Oct 3, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> What replaced God?


 Reality. 





> What did you miss most about believing?


 I no longer was part of the pack. I had to hide stuff from them. Still do to a smaller degree. 





> Do you think there could be such a thing as a secular institution that serves the same purposes as a church?


 I hope not.  





> What advice would you offer to someone who had recently de-converted?


 I hope they don't need any. They have used logic and their minds to get this far. Don't stop. 





> What are the pitfalls if any?


 You can't run for office...yet.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Israel (Oct 3, 2018)

After my mother passed, I saw her in a dream, but not as I had ever known her...the closest _image _was that similar in a photo of a time long before she had me, or any children for that matter. Young...very young, but not a child.
And the smile she wore was radiant.
In short, she was everything _in image _opposed to my last seeing of her bodily image.

I'm pretty convinced everyone there is as "we never knew them"...but all for discovery. (we can even believe that...now!) We can practice "leaving room" for the grace of God...that we not be shocked to death at His appearing.

But surprises are for the young, the very young.


She passed in time not long after the whole of the "Desert Shield" matter was in course...and Saddam Hussein was being touted as the new Hitler (archetype of _all evil_), and even some _saved_ family members were brought into dispute with her as to whether even "such a one" as him could ever be saved. I was glad to hear the report (as I was away) that to her, it was no problem at all. And that some were quite irked by her disposition toward him.

Her body was found dead with all "important papers" laid out neatly on the dinner table.

The things the Lord allows us to come to know, and see...to both comfort...and _instruct._

But these matters are all only of image, as are these words. 

The comfort though, is real.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 3, 2018)

bullethead said:


> So, how is someone who is in heaven perceived?
> Are they perpetually at the prime of their life or are they as is at death? Will a baby ever mature? Do the elderly stay old? Are cripples and the sick as new? Is everyone a whisp of smoke in spirit form with a new sense of unlimited knowledge? Or are the low IQ pain in the donkeys unavoidable for all of eternity? Do you literally have to put up with your ex mother in law or the guy your wife left you for forever???


Read Matthew 22.


----------



## j_seph (Oct 3, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Didn't humans have souls prior to 6000 years ago?


From my knowledge since the beginning.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 3, 2018)

j_seph said:


> Everyone has a personality, thoughts, and feelings. Even animals to some degree all in which drive from the brain. To me the soul started when God first put breathe into Adams nostrils. When we are in the womb we are a living being and need no air to breathe. When we come out of the womb I feel God puts that first breathe into our lungs, the life and the soul to make that baby live. We carry that soul with us and in your lifetime you have 2 choices to make. Due to the sensor here it is either North or South. When one reaches whatever age of accountability and receives conviction that is when one must make that decision. Will they have other opportunities if they deny it? Maybe but not promised. Have seen many in nursing homes that love Jesus, can give you their testimony. The same people cannot tell you if they ate today, do not know their own family. Some cannot even remember their own name that they have had since birth. However Glory be To God they can tell you about Jesus, his saving grace, and when they were saved and where at. Funny Alzheimers and dementia can take away their entire lives from their memory but it cannot take away Gods Grace. To look at someone in a casket, to see peace on their face vs. seeing no peace is another reason I believe the way I do. Our 23 year old nephew killed 6 weeks ago. He had a peaceful look on his face, some said he was saved and okay just from seeing him. No one knew at the time where he stood but later found out he was saved.


Have you seen the tests performed on Alzheimers patients using music?
They cant tell you what they ate today or recognize family or where they are but they remember their favorite song, the words etc.
It appears God's grace and music has much the same effect. So maybe its not a matter of  God's grace, maybe its a matter of what things can trigger the brain in certain individuals.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 3, 2018)

j_seph said:


> From my knowledge since the beginning.


So are you saying Adam was the first human? Or Humans existed before Adam?


----------



## bullethead (Oct 3, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Read Matthew 22.


That does not answer my question any more than a passage in the Koran satisfies you.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 3, 2018)

bullethead said:


> That does not answer my question any more than a passage in the Koran satisfies you.


All things are made new. Beings as the Angels are would mean the earthy affection is gone. The retarded is no longer retarded. If the fella is there that stole your ex wife, you won’t hate either or have any lingering lust for her. All things will be new. 

That’s how I read it.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 3, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> All things are made new. Beings as the Angels are would mean the earthy affection is gone. The retarded is no longer retarded. If the fella is there that stole your ex wife, you won’t hate either or have any lingering lust for her. All things will be new.
> 
> That’s how I read it.


If it was anywhere near that, Id hate it in 3 days.


----------



## j_seph (Oct 3, 2018)

bullethead said:


> So are you saying Adam was the first human? Or Humans existed before Adam?


Read Genesis 1, and yes I am saying that Adam was the first.

also in Genesis 2 you will see where it took breathe of God to make him a living soul.

Not sure what your thinking is. But I can assure you that whatever it is that you are trying to get to the point of by asking the 6000 years ago and if Adam was the first, again yes he was. However you can save your typing if it is to try and persuade me otherwise. I can promise you that my faith is way greater than your persuasion, not to be rude sir.


----------



## j_seph (Oct 3, 2018)

bullethead said:


> If it was anywhere near that, Id hate it in 3 days.


Guarantee it won't take near that long to hate the other alternative.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 3, 2018)

j_seph said:


> Guarantee it won't take near that long to hate the other alternative.


There is only one other alternative in your religion. Either way an eternity of either isn't for me.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 3, 2018)

j_seph said:


> Read Genesis 1, and yes I am saying that Adam was the first.
> 
> also in Genesis 2 you will see where it took breathe of God to make him a living soul.
> 
> Not sure what your thinking is. But I can assure you that whatever it is that you are trying to get to the point of by asking the 6000 years ago and if Adam was the first, again yes he was. However you can save your typing if it is to try and persuade me otherwise. I can promise you that my faith is way greater than your persuasion, not to be rude sir.


No, I expect you to ignore fossil record of human evolution because of ignor... i mean faith, not to be rude..


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 3, 2018)

Some people just cant help themselves.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 3, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Some people just cant help themselves.


Tell me about it, despite knowing that scripture from the bible means to us the same as scripture from other religions means to Christians..they just keep on trying to use it as some sort of evidence and fact. Like Scripture-Tourretts.....WHOOOOP


----------



## j_seph (Oct 3, 2018)

bullethead said:


> No, I expect you to ignore fossil record of human evolution because of ignor... i mean faith, not to be rude..


Guess this is what amazes me, when people however many thousands of years ago have witnessed the stories of the bible, put them down in writing no one believes them. Yet because someone went to school, got a degree from a professor that believes one way, that was the student of another professor that believes a certain way, and on down the chain they believe them. Who determines the face value of these test? Someone else that believes the same in evolution? What makes it anymore fact what they say then what the ones who wrote what they seen thousands of years ago?


----------



## j_seph (Oct 3, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Tell me about it, despite knowing that scripture from the bible means to us the same as scripture from other religions means to Christians..they just keep on trying to use it as some sort of evidence and fact. Like Scripture-Tourretts.....WHOOOOP


But wait, even if we are wrong and we chose the wrong religion we all still for the most part believe in a GOD. Yet you believe in man that has proven more than once how they can screw things up.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 3, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Some people just cant help themselves.



I am here because scripture didn't do it for me to believe. In fact, I am the way I am right now because of scripture,  so someone who recites it is actually reaffirming my stance.
I am am here for the true Apologist that can explain without scripture and give examples outside of scripture and show me evidence and facts that are not scripture.
I do not know how to say it any more clear.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 3, 2018)

j_seph said:


> Guess this is what amazes me, when people however many thousands of years ago have witnessed the stories of the bible, put them down in writing no one believes them. Yet because someone went to school, got a degree from a professor that believes one way, that was the student of another professor that believes a certain way, and on down the chain they believe them. Who determines the face value of these test? Someone else that believes the same in evolution? What makes it anymore fact what they say then what the ones who wrote what they seen thousands of years ago?


Who are these people that you say witnessed these things and wrote them down? Lets forget trying to prove a god for a while. School me on who these people are and what they witnessed without using scripture. 
These magnificent models of gifts to the world must stand out in history that encompasses many cultures. 
And then we will discuss what, if in fact they wrote it, is truthful, folklore or lies.

The floor is yours


----------



## bullethead (Oct 3, 2018)

j_seph said:


> But wait, even if we are wrong and we chose the wrong religion we all still for the most part believe in a GOD. Yet you believe in man that has proven more than once how they can screw things up.


That and a dollar with get you any sized soft drink at MickyDs.

Man wrote scripture.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 3, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Tell me about it, despite knowing that scripture from the bible means to us the same as scripture from other religions means to Christians..they just keep on trying to use it as some sort of evidence and fact. Like Scripture-Tourretts.....WHOOOOP


My comment was the arrogance of this “I expect you to ignore fossil record of human evolution because of ignor... i mean faith, not to be rude..”

For some reason you seem to resort to those tactics. 

No-one ignores fossil records and they all seem to have unexplainable variations built in assumptions and I really don’t care how old the earth is.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 3, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> My comment was the arrogance of this “I expect you to ignore fossil record of human evolution because of ignor... i mean faith, not to be rude..”
> 
> For some reason you seem to resort to those tactics.
> 
> No-one ignores fossil records and they all seem to have unexplainable variations built in assumptions and I really don’t care how old the earth is.


I wasnt directing that to you.

If someone thinks that Adam was whipped up and is the first human ever and came out in current modern human form they are absolutely ignoring the fossil record.
Same goes for young earth.
It is willful ignorance of the available facts in favor of faith. Period.

Sorry if I do not sugar coat things for you.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 3, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I am here because scripture didn't do it for me to believe. In fact, I am the way I am right now because of scripture,  so someone who recites it is actually reaffirming my stance.
> I am am here for the true Apologist that can explain without scripture and give examples outside of scripture and show me evidence and facts that are not scripture.
> I do not know how to say it any more clear.



I am here because scripture did work for me. So someone misquoting and misusing scripture keeps reaffirming my stance. But I thought experience doesn’t count?


----------



## bullethead (Oct 3, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I am here because scripture did work for me. So someone misquoting and misusing scripture keeps reaffirming my stance. But I thought experience doesn’t count?


How tolerant will you be of me if I reply to you with Koran verses and use other verses as proof that the first verses were right? What if I do that in every reply?
When you tell me that those verses mean nothing to you, I will reply with a verse saying that a nonbeliever would say that and then give you another verse for good measure.  And on and on and on.

I personally do not care what scripture does for you. I know what it doesnt do for me and  someone reciting it to answer my questions is whizzing in the wind. Saying nothing is  more meaningful to me rather than regurgitating scripture.

Me reciting foghorn leghorn scripture means to you what biblical scripture means to me.

I want to talk without using either. That's why i am here and not a few floors above.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 3, 2018)

bullethead said:


> How tolerant will you be of me if I reply to you with Koran verses and use other verses as proof that the first verses were right? What if I do that in every reply?
> When you tell me that those verses mean nothing to you, I will reply with a verse saying that a nonbeliever would say that and then give you another verse for good measure.  And on and on and on.
> 
> I personally do not care what scripture does for you. I know what it doesnt do for me and  someone reciting it to answer my questions is whizzing in the wind. Saying nothing is  more meaningful to me rather than regurgitating scripture.
> ...


I don’t have an issue with you using any scripture or whatever you have. If that’s the source if what and why you believe or do not believe then it tells me you have something and I can respect that. It’s not my place to correct you, I only have a choice to either believe it or not. Discussion is just that. And no I do t need sugar coating lol


----------



## j_seph (Oct 3, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Who are these people that you say witnessed these things and wrote them down? Lets forget trying to prove a god for a while. School me on who these people are and what they witnessed without using scripture.
> These magnificent models of gifts to the world must stand out in history that encompasses many cultures.
> And then we will discuss what, if in fact they wrote it, is truthful, folklore or lies.
> 
> The floor is yours


I will give you one and you can go from there, Paul who met Jesus on the road to Damascus. If you are intrigued to know more or others then please do some reading and seeking.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 3, 2018)

j_seph said:


> I will give you one and you can go from there, Paul who met Jesus on the road to Damascus. If you are intrigued to know more or others then please do some reading and seeking.


Paul claims to have had a vision. He didn't meet Jesus any more than you did or I did. And that is your best one??
I have read and researched them all.


----------



## j_seph (Oct 3, 2018)

bullethead said:


> How tolerant will you be of me if I reply to you with Koran verses and use other verses as proof that the first verses were right? What if I do that in every reply?
> When you tell me that those verses mean nothing to you, I will reply with a verse saying that a nonbeliever would say that and then give you another verse for good measure.  And on and on and on.
> 
> I personally do not care what scripture does for you. I know what it doesnt do for me and  someone reciting it to answer my questions is whizzing in the wind. Saying nothing is  more meaningful to me rather than regurgitating scripture.
> ...


But wait, the Quran talks about Mary as well as the Messiah and Mary giving birth. Imagine that, 2 opposite religions making mention of the same thing.

_O Muhammad, these are the "unseen" things, We are revealing to you: you were not present there when the priests of the Temple were casting lots by throwing their quills to decide which of them should be the guardian of Mary:  43 nor were you with them when they were arguing about it. Quran 3:44_


_And remember when the angels said, "O Mary, God sends you the good news of a Command of His: his name shall be Messiah, Jesus son of Mary. He will be highly honored in this world and in the Next World and he will be among those favored by God. He will speak to the people alike when in the cradle and when grown up, and he will be among the righteous." Hearing this, Mary said, "How, O Lord, shall I have a son, when no man has ever touched me?" "Thus shall it be,"44 was the answer. God creates whatever He wills. When He decrees a thing, He only says, "Be" and it is. (Continuing their message, the angels added,) "And God will teach him the Book and wisdom, and give him the knowledge of the Torah and the Gospel, and appoint him as His Messenger to the children of Israel." Quran 3:45-49 _


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## bullethead (Oct 3, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I don’t have an issue with you using any scripture or whatever you have. If that’s the source if what and why you believe or do not believe then it tells me you have something and I can respect that. It’s not my place to correct you, I only have a choice to either believe it or not. Discussion is just that. And no I do t need sugar coating lol


Before we begin, it is important to begin with the Name of Allah - and ask Him to send peace and blessings upon Muhammad, peace be upon him. And Remember "Allahu 'Alim" - it is only Allah who is the True Knower of all Things


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## Spotlite (Oct 3, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Before we begin, it is important to begin with the Name of Allah - and ask Him to send peace and blessings upon Muhammad, peace be upon him. And Remember "Allahu 'Alim" - it is only Allah who is the True Knower of all Things


Cool story but I don’t believe it.

I’m not in 3rd grade playing make believe. I live out what I believe in and it works. It’s not just a story that Grandma read to me and I decided “hey I like that” It’s been put to the test many times for me and not failed.

I’m not about proving other people wrong. I only need to know how and why I arrrived where I am in this.

Although I will say that the Muslims believe there is one true God, they call him Allah......is it the same as God?? I do know the prophets are different.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 3, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Cool story but I don’t believe it.
> 
> I’m not in 3rd grade playing make believe. I live out what I believe in and it works. It’s not just a story that Grandma read to me and I decided “hey I like that” It’s been put to the test many times for me and not failed.
> 
> ...


“This Book is not to be doubted…. As for the unbelievers, it is the same whether or not you forewarn them; they will not have faith. God has set a seal upon their hearts and ears; their sight is dimmed and grievous punishment awaits them.” Quran 2:1/2:6-2:10

Allah made you to not believe. You were put here to say exactly waht you said above. You do not have a choice. Allah commanded it, and it was so.


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## Spotlite (Oct 3, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Saying nothing is  more meaningful to me rather than regurgitating scripture.
> 
> Me reciting foghorn leghorn scripture means to you what biblical scripture means to me.
> 
> I want to talk without using either. That's why i am here and not a few floors above.





Could you possibly discuss the evolution of man with the restriction that you can’t point to, recite, quote, anything related to any scientific, etc. studies?


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## bullethead (Oct 3, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Could you possibly discuss the evolution of man with the restriction that you can’t point to, recite, quote, anything related to any scientific, etc. studies?


Absolutely!
He has created you (all) out of one living entity, and out of it fashioned its mate; and he has bestowed upon you four kinds of cattle of either sex; (and) He creates you in your mother’s wombs, one act of creation after another, in threefold depths of darkness. Thus is God, your Sustainer: unto Him belongs all dominion: there is no deity save Him: how, then, can you lose sight of the truth?

Surah Ash – Shura, 42:49-50


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## Spotlite (Oct 3, 2018)

bullethead said:


> “This Book is not to be doubted…. As for the unbelievers, it is the same whether or not you forewarn them; they will not have faith. God has set a seal upon their hearts and ears; their sight is dimmed and grievous punishment awaits them.” Quran 2:1/2:6-2:10
> 
> Allah made you to not believe. You were put here to say exactly waht you said above. You do not have a choice. Allah commanded it, and it was so.


Hey I’m good with that. If that’s what you believe and live by, I’m all for it.


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## Spotlite (Oct 3, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Absolutely!
> He has created you (all) out of one living entity, and out of it fashioned its mate; and he has bestowed upon you four kinds of cattle of either sex; (and) He creates you in your mother’s wombs, one act of creation after another, in threefold depths of darkness. Thus is God, your Sustainer: unto Him belongs all dominion: there is no deity save Him: how, then, can you lose sight of the truth?
> 
> Surah Ash – Shura, 42:49-50


Lol ok. You’re hear to “discuss” without using scripture unless it benefits your parameters of the game. Gotcha


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## bullethead (Oct 3, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Lol ok. You’re hear to “discuss” without using scripture unless it benefits your parameters of the game. Gotcha


No,no,no, you said that I could not use science. You said nothing of scripture.

In a world where truth and existence is based off the the parameters that you use yourself, You absolutely cannot prove my scripture wrong. Go ahead try.

But know this!
“Verily We created man from a product of wet earth; then placed him as a drop (of seed)in a safe lodging; then We fashioned the drop into a clot, then We fashioned the clot into a little lump, then We fashioned the little lump into bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of Creators!” [23:12-14]


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## bullethead (Oct 3, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Lol ok. You’re hear to “discuss” without using scripture unless it benefits your parameters of the game. Gotcha





> Could you possibly discuss the evolution of man with the restriction that you can’t point to, recite, quote, anything related to any scientific, etc. studies?


I am LOVING this scripture stuff.
It is all I will use from here on out.
I have seen the light.
My heart has been filled.


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## Spotlite (Oct 3, 2018)

bullethead said:


> No,no,no, you said that I could not use science. You said nothing of scripture.
> 
> In a world where truth and existence is based off the the parameters that you use yourself, You absolutely cannot prove my scripture wrong. Go ahead try.
> 
> ...


Ok fair enough, I deserve that since I followed up on your request of not using scripture by asking you to not use your science. I guess the difference is it’s not a game for me. And once again, I’m not about proving anyone wrong. Not my goal in life.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 3, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I am LOVING this scripture stuff.
> It is all I will use from here on out.
> I have seen the light.
> My heart has been filled.


Think of all the brain cells you will save not having to think


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## bullethead (Oct 3, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Ok fair enough, I deserve that since I followed up on your request of not using scripture by asking you to not use your science. I guess the difference is it’s not a game for me. And once again, I’m not about proving anyone wrong. Not my goal in life.


Scripture begets Scripture


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## bullethead (Oct 3, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Think of all the brain cells you will save not having to think


Yeah
I am so elated to not have to do any extra checking around to see if what I am quoting has any truth to it.
And because it is scripture and from a God, it has to be true. Millions of people couldn't be wrong.


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## Spotlite (Oct 3, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Think of all the brain cells you will save not having to think


Is that what y’all really believe??? I honestly did give the non believers more credit than that.


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## bullethead (Oct 3, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Is that what y’all really believe??? I honestly did give the non believers more credit than that.


It is not a crack at you.
It is a break for me that I only have to use one source instead of 3 or 4 FOR, 3 or 4 AGAINST, double and triple check them,then find neutral sources with no dogg in the fight and double and triple check those.


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## Spotlite (Oct 3, 2018)

bullethead said:


> It is not a crack at you.
> It is a break for me that I only have to use one source instead of 3 or 4 FOR, 3 or 4 AGAINST, double and triple check them,then find neutral sources with no dogg in the fight and double and triple check those.


 I guess that’s were non believers are misunderstanding many believers. We use all of the same info you used to disprove. There’s a point you reach when those researches and studies conclude with no real answer. Then it’s uo to the reader to either believe it’s correct or not. I believe much of it outside the Bible is correct and up to a certain point I tend to agree with it. I’ve said many times “they’re close”.

You do realize your own comment is saying the same thing right about believers not thinking, right? And who is the judgemental and better than thou among us??? Lol ?


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## Brother David (Oct 3, 2018)

Ask for tangible evidence and you'll hear nothing


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## Muldoon (Oct 3, 2018)

Be a h
elluva lot better site if Religion and Politics were Verboten!!


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## WaltL1 (Oct 3, 2018)

bullethead said:


> It is not a crack at you.
> It is a break for me that I only have to use one source instead of 3 or 4 FOR, 3 or 4 AGAINST, double and triple check them,then find neutral sources with no dogg in the fight and double and triple check those.


Yep that's the exact point.
For the average Christian, crack open the Bible it says this, I'm done.
Im not even sure how long I spent researching multiple sites from multiple experts from multiple views just to see if ANYBODY agrees that a donkey has the ability to talk or a human has enough salt in them to become a pillar.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 3, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Is that what y’all really believe??? I honestly did give the non believers more credit than that.


its simply a fact that for many questions we ask, we dont get an answer from the individual, from their own brain, in their own words, with their own thoughts.
We get scripture.
Having said that, yes you are more prone to answer with "I think this or that".
For example your thoughts on the "soul". We/I can tell you have actually thought about it, worked it out and have come up with your own thoughts on the subject.


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## bullethead (Oct 3, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I guess that’s were non believers are misunderstanding many believers. We use all of the same info you used to disprove. There’s a point you reach when those researches and studies conclude with no real answer. Then it’s uo to the reader to either believe it’s correct or not. I believe much of it outside the Bible is correct and up to a certain point I tend to agree with it. I’ve said many times “they’re close”.
> 
> You do realize your own comment is saying the same thing right about believers not thinking, right? And who is the judgemental and better than thou among us??? Lol ?


You use nothing of outside historical secukar sources because if you did, there would be nothing to see.


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## bullethead (Oct 3, 2018)

Brother David said:


> Ask for tangible evidence and you'll hear nothing


I already posted an answer in this thread that addresses my tangible evidence.
I have written a few LONG posts explaining my experiences a few times in here over the years. I am not going to do it again, but anyone that remenbers the detailed description if my MIL's death will know what I am talking about. There is no greater tangible first hand witness of evidence than that for me.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 3, 2018)

Brother David said:


> Ask for tangible evidence and you'll hear nothing


Tangible evidence for what?
That God DOESNT exist?
Read about proving a negative.


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## bullethead (Oct 3, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Tangible evidence for what?
> That God DOESNT exist?
> Read about proving a negative.


Blasey-Ford wants Kavanaugh to disprove accusations she made because she can't prove them either.
Burden is on the accuser.


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## bullethead (Oct 3, 2018)

Muldoon said:


> Be a h
> elluva lot better site if Religion and Politics were Verboten!!


So you don't want religion discussed in the religious sections nor politics in the political section because WHY??
Do they spill out and into the gunsmithing, hunting, fishing, wild edibles or any one of the dozens of other forums?..???

Why participate if you don't like them.
Turn the channel. Don't watch the  show and call in to complain that you don't like it.


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## Israel (Oct 3, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> its simply a fact that for many questions we ask, we dont get an answer from the individual, from their own brain, in their own words, with their own thoughts.
> We get scripture.
> Having said that, yes you are more prone to answer with "I think this or that".
> For example your thoughts on the "soul". We/I can tell you have actually thought about it, worked it out and have come up with your own thoughts on the subject.


Sometimes a thing is better discerned in assault or its diminishing.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 3, 2018)

Spotlite said: 


> Is that what y’all really believe??? I honestly did give the non believers more credit than that.





WaltL1 said:


> its simply a fact that for many questions we ask, we dont get an answer from the individual, from their own brain, in their own words, with their own thoughts.
> We get scripture.
> Having said that, yes you are more prone to answer with "I think this or that".
> For example your thoughts on the "soul". We/I can tell you have actually thought about it, worked it out and have come up with your own thoughts on the subject.


Ya know what Spot, you made me think about this a little more -
Not ground breaking or anything but -
You guys (Christians) that are more "regulars" here - you, Art, Israel have all proven to be "thinkers/questioners" and are more prone to inject your own thoughts into it while still "believing".
Seems like the strictly "regurgitate scripture" Christians cant deal with all the questions we have and either fall by the wayside or don't come around very often.


----------



## Israel (Oct 3, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I already posted an answer in this thread that addresses my tangible evidence.
> I have written a few LONG posts explaining my experiences a few times in here over the years. I am not going to do it again, but anyone that remenbers the detailed description if my MIL's death will know what I am talking about. There is no greater tangible first hand witness of evidence than that for me.



I think of that account often.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 3, 2018)

Muldoon said:


> Be a h
> elluva lot better site if Religion and Politics were Verboten!!


Im glad they aren't. Being told what you can or cannot discuss is not a good thing


----------



## Brother David (Oct 3, 2018)

I ask for some proof of intelligent life somewhere else in the universe , and I got some answer about a obscure planet we haven't contacted yet . Also a statement about don't you know how big our universe is .

FYI ,
   I nor anyone else knows how big the universe is , it's like God to big to measure!!!


----------



## bullethead (Oct 3, 2018)

Israel said:


> I think of that account often.


I know you do, you have referenced it(respectfully every time) a few times over the years. 

I don't think I can rehash it with the passion I had then.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 3, 2018)

Brother David said:


> I ask for some proof of intelligent life somewhere else in the universe , and I got some answer about a obscure planet we haven't contacted yet . Also a statement about don't you know how big our universe is .
> 
> FYI ,
> I nor anyone else knows how big the universe is , it's like God to big to measure!!!


It is your god. You just call it a different name.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 3, 2018)

Brother David said:


> I ask for some proof of intelligent life somewhere else in the universe , and I got some answer about a obscure planet we haven't contacted yet . Also a statement about don't you know how big our universe is .
> 
> FYI ,
> I nor anyone else knows how big the universe is , it's like God to big to measure!!!


Yet you expect us to believe you that you know all about, speak for, know what it likes, know what it thinks, know how it feels...some invisible force that you have never met or spoken to.

Ok tiger..


----------



## bullethead (Oct 3, 2018)

Brother David said:


> I ask for some proof of intelligent life somewhere else in the universe , and I got some answer about a obscure planet we haven't contacted yet . Also a statement about don't you know how big our universe is .
> 
> FYI ,
> I nor anyone else knows how big the universe is , it's like God to big to measure!!!


We are honest enough to let more highly educated and way more well funded people tell you all about that. But you don't listen so it is pointless.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 3, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Spotlite said:
> 
> 
> Ya know what Spot, you made me think about this a little more -
> ...


 That’s fair enough. I see your point.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 3, 2018)

Brother David said:


> I ask for some proof of intelligent life somewhere else in the universe , and I got some answer about a obscure planet we haven't contacted yet . Also a statement about don't you know how big our universe is .
> 
> FYI ,
> I nor anyone else knows how big the universe is , it's like God to big to measure!!!


Don't stop thinking now, you are almost there......
That huge universe.
That we only know the tiniest fraction about.....
You are asking for proof that there is intelligent life out there somewhere...……………..
Kind of a stupid request when you think about it ain't it?


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 3, 2018)

bullethead said:


> You use nothing of outside historical secukar sources because if you did, there would be nothing to see.


Of course I use it. I can study fossil dating but again there’s a point it hits a wall with no solid answer. Im ok with man being “formed” from the earth by an organism. At some point we needed lungs though. I’m open minded that science can get very close, they just can’t close the gap.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 3, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Of course I use it. I can study fossil dating but again there’s a point it hits a wall with no solid answer. Im ok with man being “formed” from the earth by an organism. At some point we needed lungs though. I’m open minded that science can get very close, they just can’t close the gap.


https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/fishtree_09


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## bullethead (Oct 3, 2018)

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111004180106.htm

"Humans are just modified fish," said Professor Currie. "The genome of fish is not vastly different from our own. We have shown that the mechanism of pelvic muscle formation in bony fish is transitional between that in sharks and in our tetrapod ancestors."


----------



## j_seph (Oct 4, 2018)

So if one thing evolved from another. If it began life as "A" then evolved to "Z" Why do we not have fossils of "B-Y" For instance, if Cats came from Dogs did the Dog give birth to the cat? If the cat evolved from the dog over time then there should be evidence of the different stages that it evolved. Why have a need for male and female? If it started with evolution then there was no need for opposite sexes to begin with.


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## ambush80 (Oct 4, 2018)

j_seph said:


> So if one thing evolved from another. If it began life as "A" then evolved to "Z" Why do we not have fossils of "B-Y" For instance, if Cats came from Dogs did the Dog give birth to the cat? If the cat evolved from the dog over time then there should be evidence of the different stages that it evolved. Why have a need for male and female? If it started with evolution then there was no need for opposite sexes to begin with.



I'm not saying this is true, but if you read the whole thing you will see that they give reasons for why they think it might be.

http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/scit...s-had-a-common-ancestor-and-here-it-is/story/

By the way, I Googled "Cats and dogs common ancestor".  If you have a question about anything you can Google it.  No need to have us do it for you.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 4, 2018)

I looked up "Biblical kinds of species" and this is the first thing that came up.  Do you think this explanation makes more sense?

https://answersingenesis.org/creation-science/baraminology/what-are-kinds-in-genesis/


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## ambush80 (Oct 4, 2018)

I googled "What happened to the dinosaurs after Noah's ark?" and this is the first thing that came up.  Do you like that explanation?  Do you think the methodology is of the same quality as Archeology?

https://answersingenesis.org/dinosa...s-live/what-really-happened-to-the-dinosaurs/

_After the Flood, around 4,300 years ago, the remnant of the land animals, including dinosaurs, came off the Ark and lived in the present world, along with people. Because of sin, the judgments of the Curse and the Flood have greatly changed earth. Post-Flood climatic change, lack of food, disease, and man’s activities caused many types of animals to become extinct. The dinosaurs, like many other creatures, died out. Why the big mystery about dinosaurs? _

This is how you do it.  You have a question and you look at what experts have to say about it.  You look at ALL the experts you can.  The more the better.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 4, 2018)

This is interesting:

https://answersingenesis.org/science/


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 4, 2018)

Thanks j_seph!  You inspired me to look at a very different source of information.


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## bullethead (Oct 4, 2018)

j_seph said:


> So if one thing evolved from another. If it began life as "A" then evolved to "Z" Why do we not have fossils of "B-Y" For instance, if Cats came from Dogs did the Dog give birth to the cat? If the cat evolved from the dog over time then there should be evidence of the different stages that it evolved. Why have a need for male and female? If it started with evolution then there was no need for opposite sexes to begin with.


I, you, we cannot possibly fully fathom or appreciate the time it takes for these things to happen.
Your post shows that you are even farther behind than others, especially when information is available from much more highly credible sources than me...which the reality is no matter who you get the info from you refuse to believe any of them anyway. I would think that if an average Joe like us wanted to get a better understanding of it, spending a years worth of every waking moment on it might put a small dent in sorting through credible sources and study and research.
I would venture to say that since my teens when I first had such an interest until now, MAYBE I have 3 solid months into it. I have a decent grasp of what goes on. I cannot say that I understand all of it. Nor do I think people WAY smarter who spend their life working in the field know everything about it. But, I place a large amount of trust into their work just like I do for the research others that have an impact in every other aspect of my life hourly if not by the minute.


----------



## j_seph (Oct 4, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> I'm not saying this is true, but if you read the whole thing you will see that they give reasons for why they think it might be.
> 
> http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/scit...s-had-a-common-ancestor-and-here-it-is/story/
> 
> By the way, I Googled "Cats and dogs common ancestor".  If you have a question about anything you can Google it.  No need to have us do it for you.


I was using dogs and cats as a crazy example, no need to Google to know dogs came from mama and daddy dog and cats came from mama and daddy cat. I could have said elephant and pig or goat and cow it was just an example. But thank you for the encouragement to use Google.


----------



## j_seph (Oct 4, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> I googled "What happened to the dinosaurs after Noah's ark?" and this is the first thing that came up.  Do you like that explanation?  Do you think the methodology is of the same quality as Archeology?
> 
> https://answersingenesis.org/dinosa...s-live/what-really-happened-to-the-dinosaurs/
> 
> ...


I like this one
Look now at the behemoth, which I made along with you; he eats grass like an ox. See now, his strength is in his hips, and his power is in his stomach muscles. He moves his tail like a cedar; the sinews of his thighs are tightly knit. His bones are like beams of bronze, his ribs are like bars of iron. He is first of the ways of God; only He who made him can bring near His sword. Surely the mountains yield food for him, and all the beasts of the field play there. He lies under the lotus trees, in a covert of reeds and marsh. The lotus trees cover him with their shade; the willows by the brook surround him. Indeed the river may rage, yet he is not disturbed; he is confident, though the Jordan gushes into his mouth, though he takes it in his eyes, or one pierces his nose with a snare (Job 40:15-24).


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## Israel (Oct 4, 2018)

I'm approaching the mind that simply sees all of it as miracle. That any_thing _is, at all.

We make up words to describe processes in observation...and eventually get won to an idea in which we fundamentally conceptualize there are such things as negative and positive "charges" and that because there are words, and the words are such as we have made up, ...the concepts are then "grasped".

We "speak for" things.

Don't get me wrong, I have no issue with calling a thing a dog. But, "a rose by any other name..."


Which I guess was behind my asking _my dog_ not long ago..."do you even know you are called dog...is that what you are to yourself?".

We seek to interpret what a thing by its existence is saying into existence. Dumb shepherd, smart shepherd, or _really smart_ ancient shepherd, I find something very deep in the exchange of Moses trying to get a "name" out of the one he spoke to.

And Moses said unto God, Behold, _when_ I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What _is_ his name? what shall I say unto them?

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Do I think Moses a great philosopher? Nah. I just think he got touched by (Bullet I expect you to relish this!) The Is Who Is.
Who is of all Isness.

Or if you really want to have fun!
The Is who is is-ing every_thing._


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## j_seph (Oct 4, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I, you, we cannot possibly fully fathom or appreciate the time it takes for these things to happen.
> Your post shows that you are even ****her behind than others, especially when information is available from much more highly credible sources than me...which the reality is no matter who you get the info from you refuse to believe any of them anyway. I would think that if an average Joe like us wanted to get a better understanding of it, spending a years worth of every waking moment on it might put a small dent in sorting through credible sources and study and research.
> I would venture to say that since my teens when I first had such an interest until now, MAYBE I have 3 solid months into it. I have a decent grasp of what goes on. I cannot say that I understand all of it. Nor do I think people WAY smarter who spend their life working in the field know everything about it. But, I place a large amount of trust into their work just like I do for the research others that have an impact in every other aspect of my life hourly if not by the minute.


But in all of the fossils can you show stages of each animal evolving from one to another? I do not mean going from A to Z but all the in between. There should be proof somewhere of each stage.


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## ambush80 (Oct 4, 2018)

j_seph said:


> I like this one
> Look now at the behemoth, which I made along with you; he eats grass like an ox. See now, his strength is in his hips, and his power is in his stomach muscles. He moves his tail like a cedar; the sinews of his thighs are tightly knit. His bones are like beams of bronze, his ribs are like bars of iron. He is first of the ways of God; only He who made him can bring near His sword. Surely the mountains yield food for him, and all the beasts of the field play there. He lies under the lotus trees, in a covert of reeds and marsh. The lotus trees cover him with their shade; the willows by the brook surround him. Indeed the river may rage, yet he is not disturbed; he is confident, though the Jordan gushes into his mouth, though he takes it in his eyes, or one pierces his nose with a snare (Job 40:15-24).



Do you like Answers in Genesis' explanation of what happened to the dinosaurs?


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## bullethead (Oct 4, 2018)

j_seph said:


> I like this one
> Look now at the behemoth, which I made along with you; he eats grass like an ox. See now, his strength is in his hips, and his power is in his stomach muscles. He moves his tail like a cedar; the sinews of his thighs are tightly knit. His bones are like beams of bronze, his ribs are like bars of iron. He is first of the ways of God; only He who made him can bring near His sword. Surely the mountains yield food for him, and all the beasts of the field play there. He lies under the lotus trees, in a covert of reeds and marsh. The lotus trees cover him with their shade; the willows by the brook surround him. Indeed the river may rage, yet he is not disturbed; he is confident, though the Jordan gushes into his mouth, though he takes it in his eyes, or one pierces his nose with a snare (Job 40:15-24).


This is a good one too.


> Yet God is my King of old, working salvation in the midst of the earth. Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength: Thou brakest the heads of the sea-monsters in the waters. Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces; Thou gavest him to be food to the people inhabiting the wilderness (Psalm 74:12-14)


What non mythological creature is that?


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## ambush80 (Oct 4, 2018)

j_seph said:


> But in all of the fossils can you show stages of each animal evolving from one to another? I do not mean going from A to Z but all the in between. There should be proof somewhere of each stage.



You don't like to Google, huh?  I'm not doing it for you this time.


OK, fine.  I'll help you a little bit just this one more once because I feel sorry for you.  Copy and paste this into the search bar:

Evidence of transitional species.


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## bullethead (Oct 4, 2018)

j_seph said:


> But in all of the fossils can you show stages of each animal evolving from one to another? I do not mean going from A to Z but all the in between. There should be proof somewhere of each stage.


In fact there are some.
https://www.livescience.com/3306-fossils-reveal-truth-darwin-theory.html


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## bullethead (Oct 4, 2018)

Israel said:


> I'm approaching the mind that simply sees all of it as miracle. That any_thing _is, at all.
> 
> We make up words to describe processes in observation...and eventually get won to an idea in which we fundamentally conceptualize there are such things as negative and positive "charges" and that because there are words, and the words are such as we have made up, ...the concepts are then "grasped".
> 
> ...


I am more amazed that Moses found the time to write this stuff down.


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## bullethead (Oct 4, 2018)

j_seph said:


> But in all of the fossils can you show stages of each animal evolving from one to another? I do not mean going from A to Z but all the in between. There should be proof somewhere of each stage.


http://myxo.css.msu.edu/ecoli/


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## bullethead (Oct 4, 2018)

Here is something to bookmark for anyone interested in these Evolutionary matters.
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library.html


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## Spotlite (Oct 4, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I, you, we cannot possibly fully fathom.


I know this wasn’t for me but these words are interesting.

We normally take today’s known standards and try to measure history with it as a comparison. 

My nephew thought the biggest lake in the world that covered half of America was the one here until he saw the Gulf of Mexico. 

I’m curiously looking through the eyes of those in the era around 6,000 years ago, what did the whole earth look like to them? Did they even know that the soil we are on right now existed?


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## bullethead (Oct 4, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I know this wasn’t for me but these words are interesting.
> 
> We normally take today’s known standards and try to measure history with it as a comparison.
> 
> ...


There is a LOT of truth to what you are saying Spotlite.

While a localized flood took place "back in the day" it probably encompassed thousands of square miles which in fact WAS the world to them. I dont doubt someone survived it in a craft. I dont doubt that they took the farm animals with them. I dont doubt they landed pretty dang far away when it was over.
And I do not doubt that from the initial story and it being told through the years ended up as it has when someone finally penned it.


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## bullethead (Oct 4, 2018)

Some real people, some real places, some real events mixed with embellishments. 
"Faction"
It happens all over in all cultures throughout all of time.

I watch a news conference for an hour and when the Prez takes questions the reporter will say "when you said blah blah blah..."
And I say, he disnt say that.
Then the prez says "I didnt say that"
But despite being told by the source...they write it as they the way they want to tell it. 
FACTION


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## redwards (Oct 4, 2018)

bullethead said:


> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111004180106.htm
> 
> "Humans are just modified fish," said Professor Currie. "The genome of fish is not vastly different from our own. We have shown that the mechanism of pelvic muscle formation in bony fish is transitional between that in sharks and in our tetrapod ancestors."


bullet,
This is just an honest question about the article...
Where this is stated....
"There are big gaps in our knowledge, however. Most conclusions have previously been drawn from fossil skeletons, but the muscles critical to locomotion cannot be preserved in the fossil record."

Do they identify what the gaps are, where the gaps exist, how many gaps are there...or am I just missing something?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 4, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Some real people, some real places, some real events mixed with embellishments.
> "Faction"
> It happens all over in all cultures throughout all of time.
> 
> ...



That story was also a mirror used to show Jesus as the Ark of Salvation.
The mystery to me is all of these old stories predestined in order for God to use them as examples.


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## bullethead (Oct 4, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> That story was also a mirror used to show Jesus as the Ark of Salvation.
> The mystery to me is all of these old stories predestined in order for God to use them as examples.


Or
Writers that wrote the NT HUNDREDS of years after the Torah had information at their disposal that allowed the new stories to be written to fit.
Could you write a story that fits with the previous story? Even using plagiarism,  could you write a 5th gospel with what is available in the Ot and Nt now?
If not you, do you think someone could??


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## bullethead (Oct 4, 2018)

redwards said:


> bullet,
> This is just an honest question about the article...
> Where this is stated....
> "There are big gaps in our knowledge, however. Most conclusions have previously been drawn from fossil skeletons, but the muscles critical to locomotion cannot be preserved in the fossil record."
> ...


This article is not the one and only source that is the base by which everything else goes from. In fact, it was the first thing I found in 3 seconds of searching.
I would ask that if you are really serious about having your questions answered that you take just an hour of searching. Please report what you find as I am also interested.

I have to ask you, that if I take the time to do it, and post it, would you honestly admit to believe it? Or at least acknowledge the work that is done by Scientists in that field?

See despite all of the fossils that are found and in human posession and all the ones that are still out there to find, they are still INCREDIBLY rare.
We are never going to find a spot of ground where lets say for example, a modern human is buried in a casket, 6ft under him a 100yr old human is underneath him, and another  100 years older than him is and on and on and on and on going back in 100 year increments until there is a tetrapod.
Even if by some freakish happenstance they all somehow were in that alignment it is more likely than not that the majority of fossils would be gone, vaporized and absorbed back into the in the ground with nothing to be analyzed  let alone in chronological order.
We take what is available and fill in the gaps with what is known about other species that we have examples of.

But I do not think you understand how NOT simple it really is but how you want it to be.

Please let me know what you find out.
The links I posted contain links withing the articles that will give you hours of reading.


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## redwards (Oct 4, 2018)

bullethead said:


> ......
> 
> But I do not think you understand how NOT simple it really is but how you want it to be.


......
I don't mean this in a negative way, but I kind of doubt that you know what I understand or don't understand...just being honest...
and anecdotally...this afternoon my wife and I went into Chick-fil-A for lunch. We both went to the restroom. I came out before she did. As I always do, I waited for her. As I waited, I noticed 3 teenage boys in a booth. One of them was very animated as he was talking, so I just began listening. Turns out, he works at some place where the owner is an old man..."a really old man"...the teen was apparently having a problem getting someone's credit card to process because in his animation he was indicating how he had to slide the card thru the scanning bar and had become frustrated because he was having a problem getting it to scan. He told the other two teens the owner, "the old man", (after the teen had finally got the transaction to process) proceeded to go to a desk drawer and "pulled out this funny looking piece of equipment". The owner apparently brought that "piece of equipment" to the counter.
The owner then proceeded to explain to the teen that way back when...he, the owner, had to place every credit card presented to him on this "piece of equipment", put a set of papers on top of the card and slide this "bar" across the card. The slips were filed and at the end of the day the slips had to be pulled apart, totaled, and mailed in...and the teen said this..."Can you imagine, he had to mail them, I mean really mail them."
...I thought to myself...if that kid only knew...back when I was a kid his age and worked in my granddaddy's store and someone said "charge it, please"...I reached under the counter and pulled out a box that contained a charge ticket book...I wrote down the charged amount...the customer signed the charge ticket...and on Friday or Saturday when they got paid...they came in and paid their bill.
I write all this simply to state...
I suppose most everything changes over time...some more than others...and it usually is a result of intelligent design.
.
.
...But, I will continue to read and research, as I always do, because I take nothing at face value.


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## bullethead (Oct 4, 2018)

redwards said:


> ......
> I don't mean this in a negative way, but I kind of doubt that you know what I understand or don't understand...just being honest...
> and anecdotally...this afternoon my wife and I went into Chick-fil-A for lunch. We both went to the restroom. I came out before she did. As I always do, I waited for her. As I waited, I noticed 3 teenage boys in a booth. One of them was very animated as he was talking, so I just began listening. Turns out, he works at some place where the owner is an old man..."a really old man"...the teen was apparently having a problem getting someone's credit card to process because in his animation he was indicating how he had to slide the card thru the scanning bar and had become frustrated because he was having a problem getting it to scan. He told the other two teens the owner, "the old man", (after the teen had finally got the transaction to process) proceeded to go to a desk drawer and "pulled out this funny looking piece of equipment". The owner apparently brought that "piece of equipment" to the counter.
> The owner then proceeded to explain to the teen that way back when...he, the owner, had to place every credit card presented to him on this "piece of equipment", put a set of papers on top of the card and slide this "bar" across the card. The slips were filed and at the end of the day the slips had to be pulled apart, totaled, and mailed in...and the teen said this..."Can you imagine, he had to mail them, I mean really mail them."
> ...


Since you asked me a question... I would naturally take it that you wanted me to provide an answer in a way that may help you understand.
Unless you understand what you asked me perfectly, then I will ask you now to explain it to me.


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## Spotlite (Oct 5, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Or
> Writers that wrote the NT HUNDREDS of years after the Torah had information at their disposal that allowed the new stories to be written to fit.
> Could you write a story that fits with the previous story? Even using plagiarism,  could you write a 5th gospel with what is available in the Ot and Nt now?
> If not you, do you think someone could??


While the possibility is there to copy or refer to stories from the Torah, there’s so much more in the Old and New Testaments that is written concerning salvation and many other things. Many of those things consistently change people’s lives for the better when everything else consistently fails. 

I’m sure many stories are there to demonstrate the works of God and to use as examples in our lives, so to me it’s not important to dwell on for the purpose of deciding if they’re to be used literally or figuratively. Just my opinion.


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## bullethead (Oct 5, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> While the possibility is there to copy or refer to stories from the Torah, there’s so much more in the Old and New Testaments that is written concerning salvation and many other things. Many of those things consistently change people’s lives for the better when everything else consistently fails.
> 
> I’m sure many stories are there to demonstrate the works of God and to use as examples in our lives, so to me it’s not important to dwell on for the purpose of deciding if they’re to be used literally or figuratively. Just my opinion.


I wouldn't think a God would speak figuratively.


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## Spotlite (Oct 5, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I wouldn't think a God would speak figuratively.


“salt of the earth”, we are not literally “salt” - just one example.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literal_and_figurative_language

A parable is an earthly story with a heavenly meaning.

 “Figuratively” May not be the word Im looking for but the copied portion of it’s definition below seemed to fit. 

“Figurative language is often created by presenting words in such a way that they are equated, compared, or associated with normally unrelated meanings.”


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## bullethead (Oct 5, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> “salt of the earth”, we are not literally “salt” - just one example.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literal_and_figurative_language
> 
> ...


I try to be a straight shooter so there is no mistaking what my intents are or what I mean.
I never spoke in parables or figuratively to my sons when I wanted the garbage taken out. I said..Make sure That garbage gets taken outside today.
It always seemed to clear up a lot of things that could be interpreted differently.

I cant imagine why a God wouldn't do the same thing.

Now, theatrical writing(izzy may appreciate this)for effect....Yeah parables and figurative meanings is their specialty.


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## Spotlite (Oct 5, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I try to be a straight shooter so there is no mistaking what my intents are or what I mean.
> I never spoke in parables or figuratively to my sons when I wanted the garbage taken out. I said..Make sure That garbage gets taken outside today.
> It always seemed to clear up a lot of things that could be interpreted differently.
> 
> ...


Same here with my kids on giving an order or command but I also say things to my wife and kids such as “you’re the light of my life” or “a breath of fresh air”. It’s an expression to describe. Such as salt of the earth would be. Love thy neighbor is a command in the NT, not an expression. Although some actually express the “love” part of it in a different way ? 

We all use analogies. But I agree, and it also depends on the writer, the audience, and the purpose.


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## bullethead (Oct 5, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Same here with my kids on giving an order or command but I also say things to my wife and kids such as “you’re the light of my life” or “a breath of fresh air”. It’s an expression to describe. Such as salt of the earth would be. Love thy neighbor is a command in the NT, not an expression. Although some actually express the “love” part of it in a different way ?
> 
> We all use analogies. But I agree, and it also depends on the writer, the audience, and the purpose.



God doesn't have to schmooze the wife or sweet talk the kids.
Those are Human qualities attributed to a God because Humans wrote the stories.

"Behave, worship me, or I'll Kill you and make you suffer.
Kill someone else in my name and Ill kill you and make you suffer.

Explode some volcanoes,  turn the sky black, open some cracks and swallow some villages to keep us in line"
That I can respect.

Not parables, figurative writing, open for interpretation,  contradicting, inaccurate and take 1500 years with dozens of anymous authors to assemble.

Snap the fingers. Here is the book. It is understandable in all languages. Obey me or suffer the consequences.
God

All the rest in these religous books is..
Man


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## Spotlite (Oct 5, 2018)

bullethead said:


> God doesn't have to schmooze the wife or sweet talk the kids.
> Those are Human qualities attributed to a God because Humans wrote the stories.
> 
> "Behave, worship me, or I'll Kill you and make you suffer.
> ...


Good points to consider. Inspired to write the words of God is really not much different than a preachers sermon. It’s then up to the reader / listener to study and see how it applies to their lives.


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## Spotlite (Oct 5, 2018)

bullethead said:


> All the rest in these religous books is..
> Man


Here’s where the gap is; a lot of people's perception is it’s “man”, and not God when it comes to the writings of the Bible and even preaching.

It always has and continues to intrigue me when I see this happening to others from different denominations; a drunk, addict, thief, depressed, suicidal, etc., lays it at the alter and there’s an instantaneous change, they don’t “want” it anymore. It intrigues me because I’m fascinated at how so many are convinced that the name over the church door is what’s important and they fail to see how people are making their way to God.


I will play the devils advocate for a minute, and I realize that this happens outside of religion as well, but assuming there is no God and if it is my goal and my job to “better” or assist people in recovery and I was the counselor, Psychiatrist, AA Administration, I want to know what’s in those words, what’s the preacher saying, what’s the driver here that causes this instantaneous change when all of my proven methods have failed. 

If it was just one, possibility 15 people, maybe not worth my looking into, but what about hundreds that coincide with two things; my methods failed, they had a “religious experience” and they were instantaneously delivered, not “recovering” as AA tells them, but put it down with no withdrawals or temptations ever again. What’s in those words that causes a drug dealer that’s destroying people’s lives to turn around and start preaching, what’s there that causes those that hate to turn around and love.


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## bullethead (Oct 5, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Here’s where the gap is; a lot of people's perception is it’s “man”, and not God when it comes to the writings of the Bible and even preaching.
> 
> It always has and continues to intrigue me when I see this happening to others from different denominations; a drunk, addict, thief, depressed, suicidal, etc., lays it at the alter and there’s an instantaneous change, they don’t “want” it anymore. It intrigues me because I’m fascinated at how so many are convinced that the name over the church door is what’s important and they fail to see how people are making their way to God.
> 
> ...


It is already in a person. They either want to make a change or they don't. 
For every story that involves someone who is down and out that suddenly does a 180, the morgue gets 100 that god didn't help.
That is the reality. And god is not a part of that reality.

Like you said earlier it hapoens to religious and non religious. 
It happens to Jews, Christians, Islamists, Buddhists and Scientologists. You either want to make a change or you don't.  You either hit rock bottom and Make the Change or you hit rock bottom and take another sip or stick another needle your arm.
Belief that God helps you is great for an individual. Some people need that, and I am ok with them giving credit to whatever helps them get through each day. 
But NONE of it is evidence of any god or ALL of it is evidence of every god.


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## Spotlite (Oct 5, 2018)

bullethead said:


> It is already in a person. They either want to make a change or they don't.
> For every story that involves someone who is down and out that suddenly does a 180, the morgue gets 100 that god didn't help.
> That is the reality. And god is not a part of that reality.
> 
> ...


Or none of its evidence of any therapy ALL or it’s evidence of every therapy?

So if it’s akrea in a person and they have a “religious experience” and recover when therapy failed, you are not interested or think it’s important to consider what’s happening in what’s going on? I did assume no God exist when I asked and not wanting to prove God by any of this.


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## bullethead (Oct 5, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Or none of its evidence of any therapy ALL or it’s evidence of every therapy?
> 
> So if it’s akrea in a person and they have a “religious experience” and recover when therapy failed, you are not interested or think it’s important to consider what’s happening in what’s going on? I did assume no God exist when I asked and not wanting to prove God by any of this.


Therapy is definable. 
It is something that is applied.
It may be extra help an individual needs or it may not.
Same thing can be said for a belief in a higher power.
Or ANY type of motivational focus a person needs.

But, is their little girl doing it for them or are they using their little girl as motivation?
Is a God doing it for them or are they using God as their motivation?

And, WHICH God?


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## Spotlite (Oct 5, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Therapy is definable.
> It is something that is applied.
> It may be extra help an individual needs or it may not.
> Same thing can be said for a belief in a higher power.
> ...


Couple of things, you’re not required to believe in every god to believe in one. The majority believe in one higher power, he could be the same. Allah / God, etc??? Don’t the Hindu rule theirs down to one higher power as well, Brahman?? One God in many forms? 

What I’m getting at with therapy verses a religious experience is what is proof that therapy worked? You basically have to take a testimonial and you can see it in his life. What’s the difference between that and religion?


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## bullethead (Oct 5, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Couple of things, you’re not required to believe in every god to believe in one. The majority believe in one higher power, he could be the same. Allah / God, etc??? Don’t the Hindu rule theirs down to one higher power as well, Brahman?? One God in many forms?
> 
> What I’m getting at with therapy verses a religious experience is what is proof that therapy worked? You basically have to take a testimonial and you can see it in his life. What’s the difference between that and religion?


I don't know for sure. You interjected therapy as an example. I think it is one example of many.

Nobody has to believe in all to believe in one, but You are telling me that an answered prayer to your God is proof of something...then wouldnt an answered prayer from another EQUAL proof?

Do you think One Loving God would allow millions upon millions of people to kill each other simply because they can't agree on his name? ....C'mon....


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## Spotlite (Oct 5, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I don't know for sure. You interjected therapy as an example. I think it is one example of many.
> 
> Nobody has to believe in all to believe in one, but You are telling me that an answered prayer to your God is proof of something...then wouldnt an answered prayer from another EQUAL proof?
> 
> Do you think One Loving God would allow millions upon millions of people to kill each other simply because they can't agree on his name? ....C'mon....


I used therapy only because there’s no evidence of someone improving other than their own “testimony”.

I think God designed us with free will to allow us to freely choose to either “want” a relationship with him or not, rather than programming us. That’d be like forcing your kids to Thanksgiving dinner. 

Edited to add: my answered prayer is proof for me. I can’t prove God, he reveals himself. I believe the best proof is the individual finding that for themselves.


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## ambush80 (Oct 10, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I used therapy only because there’s no evidence of someone improving other than their own “testimony”.
> 
> I think God designed us with free will to allow us to freely choose to either “want” a relationship with him or not, rather than programming us. That’d be like forcing your kids to Thanksgiving dinner.
> 
> Edited to add: my answered prayer is proof for me. I can’t prove God, he reveals himself. I believe the best proof is the individual finding that for themselves.




There's really not much possible to discuss after that, is there?

I suppose one could examine your interpretation of "answered prayer" but whether the result be attributed to Ra or Jah, no argument will persuade either one of anything different.  Still, isn't there something compelling, philosophically, about someone who insists that Santa REALLY put the presents under the tree?  Jordan Peterson would say that Santa as a metaphor IS real.  That's fertile ground for discussion, I think.


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