# Deconversion Stories....



## Hoyt Mathews (Mar 7, 2011)

Most of us came from a religious background and were taught the standard Bible stories. I am always curious as to what pushed each of us away from the fold. Please share your deconversion story with us.


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## atlashunter (Mar 7, 2011)

I actually have a deconversion thread on here with videos of someone elses deconversion story. Mine was similar.


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## pnome (Mar 9, 2011)

I was raised Catholic.

My "deconversion" was a long process.  It started when I went away to college.  No longer under my parents direct influence meant that I stopped regularly attending Mass.  Though, I still believed it all.  That went on for a few years, me just being a non-practicing Catholic.  If anyone asked what religion I was, I would say Catholic.

But after a while I sort of gave up on the whole idea that Jesus was the son of God.  I still believed in God, or a God anyway.  But my god was the "God of the Gaps."  Only much later did I come to realize how that God was both a logical and theological dead end.

Now I'm here.   De-facto Atheist.


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## applejuice (Mar 9, 2011)

I think that as you get older, you start to figure things out on your own. I just posted on another topic about the ages of people in the stories in the bible. I was "dragged" to church as long as I can remember. My mother is Southern Baptist and my Father is Catholic. I have seen speaking in tongues and a whole lot more as a kid. 
One day my mother told me that I was old enough to make my own decision about attending mass or sermon with either of my parents. That was really the last day I went to church. The more I paid attention, the more i was turned off by this. I don't know if anybody else has tried to have a logical conversation with a preacher or a real religious person , but that's really what turned me off. A 300 year old guy really built a ship and put every animal in the world on it? GET REAL ! Jesus' message as a whole is supposed to promote happiness and peace among fellow human beings, right? That wasn't my experience as a kid.
My main example for not being religious is the fact that there are so many religions , past or present. 
The difference between Christianity and Muslim is insane. Both the Koran and Bible have Jesus in them?   
So when does anybody stand up and realize that they have to be based on the same internal message. I'm not talking about extremism in either religion , just the overall message. The Koran is so similar to the Bible that it makes me think that human beings have just destroyed the original message. Whatever that was.
Catholic, Baptist, Mormon, Jewish, Buddhist, blah blah blah . It doesn't matter. 
I just live day to day the way I want to.  
I go to church with my Mom when I get a guilt trip about it being X mas or Easter, but I have given up on organized religion all together. If Jesus exist, I have never met him


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## Achilles Return (Mar 9, 2011)

I went from Christian to Christian Universalism, to Deism, and finally to atheism in my final two years of high school. Before I de-converted I was extremely fundamentalist - member of FCA and Younglife, two separate study groups as well as deeply involved in the youth ministry. 

I don't believe in a god because I don't have a reason to. I was on the inside, and I can safety safe that I find myself to be in a better moral position now than I did then.


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## vowell462 (Mar 9, 2011)

I believed in Jesus Christ for a long time. Grew up mainly as a southern baptist. My parents never forced me to go, they allowed me to make my own decisions which I am very grateful for. What turned me off about church, was mainly the hipocrasy, and even when I did believe, I always questioned. Every time I would ask the preacher or a fellow church member a question, the typical answer was " dont worry about it" or " we arent supposed to question god". That never settled well with me.

Finally what really turned me away was the fairy tales, and the over all history of the religion. These are things I just cant get past even if I try. Once I started doing my soul searching and history research, none of it made sense in my mind.

If I was defined anything now, it would be Agnostic. I dont necessarily believe in a god, but who knows if we have one or not. I lean towards no, but my whole answer to the question is " I dont know and guess what, niether do you". 

I have ideas of why we are here. Cant say they are true, or fact, but I have ideas. The ancient alien theory makes sense to me, but we have no direct proof, therefore I cant worship it like some do religions.


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 9, 2011)

Sorry to but in here, but as strange as it seems, me being a believer, I find these stories interesting. I realize that these decisions were not made by flipping a coin but through much soul searching, time and study. Any change of beliefs can become a sort of "crisis". It would be interesting if we had a "top ten list" of reasons, numbered 1-10 based on the number 1 reason. I realize that it would be hard to have a number 1 reason, being that there are so many reasons. So far, I see -conflict of history, hypocrisy, and probably more but I would have to go reread.


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## atlashunter (Mar 9, 2011)

Can't speak for the others but in my case it wasn't just one reason alone it was a confluence of them that came together. Many of them for me were the same as in the deconversion videos. The lack of evidence that prayer works, the stories that conflict with what we know about the history of the world and life, the logical problems reconciling the various claims of the bible, the history of how the bible came to be, the moral issues arising from biblical claims, the plethora of religions, etc.

For me hypocrisy was not a reason. If it were true that there were a perfect god who instructs imperfect humans how to live we shouldn't expect anything but hypocrisy.


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## Thanatos (Mar 9, 2011)

"Yeeehawww!", the devil says. Riding men's pride all the way to eternal death....truly sad.


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## atlashunter (Mar 9, 2011)

What is prideful is to think you have the capacity to handle anything for an eternity, even heaven. If you wish for an eternity of anything you haven't given eternity much serious thought. Claims of eternity (whether death or bliss) undermine the credibility of those making it.


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## pnome (Mar 9, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> What is prideful is to think you have the capacity to handle anything for an eternity,



I can think of a few things I would like to try.


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## JFS (Mar 9, 2011)

pnome said:


> I can think of a few things I would like to try.



The other guys are offering 72 vigins.   If I was making Pascal's wager.....


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## Thanatos (Mar 9, 2011)

pnome said:


> I can think of a few things I would like to try.



Ha!


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## Thanatos (Mar 9, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> What is prideful is to think you have the capacity to handle anything for an eternity, even heaven. If you wish for an eternity of anything you haven't given eternity much serious thought. Claims of eternity (whether death or bliss) undermine the credibility of those making it.



Preaching to the choir bro. No man can comprehend eternity. Not possible.


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## atlashunter (Mar 9, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> Preaching to the choir bro. No man can comprehend eternity. Not possible.



I agree with you. But I can wrap my mind around it well enough to know it isn't something I would wish for. I'd definitely like to enjoy the party for longer than a normal human life span. But an eternity? That reminds me of a kid saying forever and ever and ever and ever without really having a clue what that would mean.

There was a recent debate between Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris and two Jewish rabbis. Hitchens put it in what I thought was a clever way. At some point we will all get a tap on the shoulder and be told not that the party is ending but that the party will go on without us. Not a pleasant reality to most of us but consider if the theist claim is true. If the theist claims are true it is like getting tapped on the shoulder and told this party is going on forever. It will never end and you can never leave. The boss insists you stay and insists you have a good time. Careful what you wish for!


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 9, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Can't speak for the others but in my case it wasn't just one reason alone it was a confluence of them that came together. Many of them for me were the same as in the deconversion videos. The lack of evidence that prayer works, the stories that conflict with what we know about the history of the world and life, the logical problems reconciling the various claims of the bible, the history of how the bible came to be, the moral issues arising from biblical claims, the plethora of religions, etc.
> 
> For me hypocrisy was not a reason. If it were true that there were a perfect god who instructs imperfect humans how to live we shouldn't expect anything but hypocrisy.


What is "plethora of religions"?


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## Dr. Strangelove (Mar 9, 2011)

Ehhh, virgin birth, the loaves and fishes story, resurrection, etc..

Yeah, tell me another one...

Little girls being raped and murdered are part of God's plan? Really? Not a plan I need to be involved with.

Nazis? WWII? What, just "testing" us, Lord?  - I'm not buying it.

I don't insult those who choose to believe, but I do ask that they not insult me for not believing.


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## atlashunter (Mar 9, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> What is "plethora of religions"?



Multitude of religions.


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## 11P&YBOWHUNTER (Mar 10, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> "Yeeehawww!", the devil says. Riding men's pride all the way to eternal death....truly sad.



That's your opinion stud.  Get over it and if you feel the need, go pray for us all that are non-believers.


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## 11P&YBOWHUNTER (Mar 10, 2011)

Doesn't take a genius to figure out that there is a rat in the closet.  I think it's a pretty good ploy (racket) to brainwash others into thinking that there is a greater place after you die and in order to get there, you need to believe, and oh by the way....make weekly donations.  

What I feel was the turning point was being given all the facts and fiction and being able to decide for myself what to believe or not believe.   Unfortunately for the collection plate, I became a non-believer for the simple reason that common sense would say that a person could not be a god and create everything.  An illogical reason for a god could possibly be that a god could actually be an alien from another planet but believing in aliens is not a money making racket like religion is and besides, see how far priclaiming that you believe in aliens gets you.  You will be labeled a looney tune and people will abandon you because they think your nuttier than a squirrel Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----.  

I don't believe in aliens or a god but if I had to bet money on one or the other being real, I would probably bet on aliens.  I just don't pay either notion much attention because I got higher priorities like watching my daughter grow and hunting!!


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## applejuice (Mar 10, 2011)

Theres no more interesting stories? I know there are ... dont be scurred


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## TTom (Mar 10, 2011)

I never went atheist, I was raised in a christian family with parents who were on the whole non practicing. I explored religions not only christian faith but others as well from my early teen years and still study and explore. Christianity lost me for various reasons, hypocrisy, idolatry of the Bible, History of the church killing, torturing and imprisoning people for non belief, The battle between the Church and science, fanaticism of the fundamentalists, etc...

Eventually I came to the basic conclusion that none of the world's religions gets it all right. While at the same time recognizing that those things they share hold some of the most important questions about life. And when I speak of the various religions I'm inclusive of most all religions. Parallels and recurring themes between very different religions often point to something that needs to be considered deeply.

I call myself a Universalist, and explain that as "They all have a little bit of it right, and they all have alot of it wrong."


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## 1john4:4 (Mar 10, 2011)

The title says "Deconversion Stories". Can you tell a little of your story about when you were first Converted? The Bible says that we all are born lost or uncoverted so to have a deconversion story you must first have a conversion story like where you were the moment you first repented of you sins and asked Jesus to be your LORD and Savior. Or could it be that you were never truly born again and were dissolusioned? Not trying to derail or anything or be disrespectful. Just asking an honest question and I hope you search your heart to answer; was I truly a born again Christian who turned away from Jesus?


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 10, 2011)

I have not deconverted, but maybe you will be interested in my story as I was all of yours. Lately religion makes me sick. Everything is done for men to see. Everyone seems to be trying to impress the preacher as if he were god. Christian singers are trying to be famous. Attendance is what it takes to be a "good" Christian. Most quote scripture as if it were the cure for non belief. Preachers are trying to obtain "rock star status". Everyone thinks that they are the only one who "knows". They judge everything and everyone. They all have the attitude that "if you could just be like me". Everyone is the standard by which a Christian should become. I'll stop here. As much as all this makes me sick, I used to be just like that.


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## atlashunter (Mar 11, 2011)

John, maybe no Christian is truly born again. If the claims are false then they are all disillusioned and what they think is happening externally to them is actually coming from within. I have good reason to believe that is the case and I think most Christians deep down know it to be true.


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## stringmusic (Mar 11, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> John, maybe no Christian is truly born again. *If the claims are false *then they are all disillusioned and what they think is happening externally to them is actually coming from within. I have good reason to believe that is the case and I think most Christians deep down know it to be true.



If the claims are true?


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## JFS (Mar 11, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> If the claims are true?





Put in a good word for the rest of us.


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## dexrusjak (Mar 11, 2011)

1john4:4 said:


> The title says "Deconversion Stories". Can you tell a little of your story about when you were first Converted? The Bible says that we all are born lost or uncoverted so to have a deconversion story you must first have a conversion story like where you were the moment you first repented of you sins and asked Jesus to be your LORD and Savior. Or could it be that you were never truly born again and were dissolusioned? Not trying to derail or anything or be disrespectful. Just asking an honest question and I hope you search your heart to answer; was I truly a born again Christian who turned away from Jesus?



Conversion story:  I got "SAVED" at a church camp when I was ten years old because a really cool college-aged counselor told me that if I died I would burn for all of eternity.  Translation:  I was scared (terrified actually) into being saved.

De-conversion story:  I grew up, studied endlessly, actually READ the Bible for myself (all of it), concluded that if the Bible really is god's word, Christianity must be true, but if not, then Christianity must be false.  I concluded that the Bible is not and cannot be the word of god.  Over several years, I kicked and screamed my way out of belief.  I went from die-hard evangelical Bible-thumping fundy to liberal Christian to Deist to Agnostic to Atheist.  Going through this deconversion sucked (to be blunt), but now that I'm on the other side, I realize it was the best decision I ever made.  I've never been happier or more at peace with my worldview.


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## atlashunter (Mar 11, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> If the claims are true?



Then you've got to wonder why so many are faking it.


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## atlashunter (Mar 11, 2011)

dexrusjak said:


> Going through this deconversion sucked (to be blunt), but now that I'm on the other side, I realize it was the best decision I ever made.  I've never been happier or more at peace with my worldview.



 It's like seeing the world with new eyes and wondering why it took you so long. At least that is how it was for me.


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## pnome (Mar 11, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> It's like seeing the world with new eyes and wondering why it took you so long. At least that is how it was for me.



x3 

I find myself wondering how I could have ever believed.


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## stringmusic (Mar 11, 2011)

dexrusjak said:


> Conversion story:  I got "SAVED" at a church camp when I was ten years old because a really cool college-aged counselor told me that if I died I would burn for all of eternity.  Translation:  I was scared (terrified actually) into being saved.
> 
> De-conversion story:  I grew up, studied endlessly, actually READ the Bible for myself (all of it), concluded that if the Bible really is god's word, Christianity must be true, but if not, then Christianity must be false.  I concluded that the Bible is not and cannot be the word of god.  Over several years, I kicked and screamed my way out of belief.  I went from die-hard evangelical Bible-thumping fundy to liberal Christian to Deist to Agnostic to Atheist.  Going through this deconversion sucked (to be blunt), but now that I'm on the other side, I realize it was the best decision I ever made.  I've never been happier or more at peace with my worldview.





atlashunter said:


> It's like seeing the world with new eyes and wondering why it took you so long. At least that is how it was for me.





pnome said:


> x3
> 
> I find myself wondering how I could have ever believed.



Of course! How could not following anything and going about your life in any way you see fit not_ seem _more freeing? The same way you look at my life as a believer to be an unlivable life, I look at your lives the same.


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## stringmusic (Mar 11, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Then you've got to wonder why so many are faking it.



There are probably a bazillion reasons why.


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## applejuice (Mar 11, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Of course! How could not following anything and going about your life in any way you see fit not_ seem _more freeing? The same way you look at my life as a believer to be an unlivable life, I look at your lives the same.



Thanks for making a point before I could type it.
Being free to choose your own life is pretty awesome.


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## pnome (Mar 11, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Of course! How could not following anything and going about your life in any way you see fit not_ seem _more freeing?



It doesn't "seem," it _is_.

Once you take off that blindfold of fear, you will see a new and more awe inspiring universe then you ever thought possible.


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## stringmusic (Mar 11, 2011)

applejuice said:


> Thanks for making a point before I could type it.
> Being free to choose your own life is pretty awesome.



Everyone is free to choose their own life.


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## stringmusic (Mar 11, 2011)

pnome said:


> It doesn't "seem," it _is_.



IMO, which is just what it is, my opinion, I dont think you can answer that question, but then agian, I couldnt answer the counter question.



> Once you take* off that blindfold of fear*, you will see a new and more awe inspiring universe then you ever thought possible.



Its been off for a long time now.


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## 1john4:4 (Mar 11, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> I have not deconverted, but maybe you will be interested in my story as I was all of yours. Lately religion makes me sick. Everything is done for men to see. Everyone seems to be trying to impress the preacher as if he were god. Christian singers are trying to be famous. Attendance is what it takes to be a "good" Christian. Most quote scripture as if it were the cure for non belief. Preachers are trying to obtain "rock star status". Everyone thinks that they are the only one who "knows". They judge everything and everyone. They all have the attitude that "if you could just be like me". Everyone is the standard by which a Christian should become. I'll stop here. As much as all this makes me sick, I used to be just like that.




I understand and i try not to let myself get caught up in all that rigaramore... I to stay focused on MY relationship with the Lord Jesus and when I do I find there is plenty there for me to focus on. I will agree with the attendance part! But where we focus our attendance is what makes us a "good" christian. Psalm 91:1-2 is where I truly want to be found attending. While we are commanded to not forsake the assembling of the saints our greatest comes when we are all alone.


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## WTM45 (Mar 11, 2011)

Regardless of where you stand today, everyone should read the book "Godless" by Dan Barker.


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 11, 2011)

WTM45 said:


> Regardless of where you stand today, everyone should read the book "Godless" by Dan Barker.


 How about a short descriptive overview


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## Thanatos (Mar 11, 2011)

pnome said:


> It doesn't "seem," it _is_.
> 
> Once you take off that blindfold of fear, you will see a new and more awe inspiring universe then you ever thought possible.



Why can't the universe be just as majestic and awe inspiring  with God there too?


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## Thanatos (Mar 11, 2011)

dexrusjak said:


> Conversion story:  I got "SAVED" at a church camp when I was ten years old because a really cool college-aged counselor told me that if I died I would burn for all of eternity.  Translation:  I was scared (terrified actually) into being saved.
> 
> De-conversion story:  I grew up, studied endlessly, actually READ the Bible for myself (all of it), concluded that if the Bible really is god's word, Christianity must be true, but if not, then Christianity must be false.  I concluded that the Bible is not and cannot be the word of god.  Over several years, I kicked and screamed my way out of belief.  I went from die-hard evangelical Bible-thumping fundy to liberal Christian to Deist to Agnostic to Atheist.  Going through this deconversion sucked (to be blunt), but now that I'm on the other side, I realize it was the best decision I ever made.  I've never been happier or more at peace with my worldview.



O boy...


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## Thanatos (Mar 12, 2011)

I went to buy Godless today on Itunes and here is the end of the synopsis. "...the positive benefit readers will experience from learning to trust in reason and human kindness instead of living in fear of false judgment and moral condemnation."

Glad I read that and saved my 10 bucks. If your gonna bash your 20 year profession you want to make sure you are knowledgeable about what you were suppose to be doing in those 20 years. His credibility is shot with the synopsis of his book. Opps...


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## Miguel Cervantes (Mar 12, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> Why can't the universe be just as majestic and awe inspiring  with God there too?



It can. 

It has always amazed me how some folks hate anything God (an entity they don't believe in) so how could you possibly hate it??? just as adamantly as some left wing extremist hate anything GOP without possibly considering that there might possibly could be a middle ground.


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## WTM45 (Mar 13, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> I went to buy Godless today on Itunes and here is the end of the synopsis. "...the positive benefit readers will experience from learning to trust in reason and human kindness instead of living in fear of false judgment and moral condemnation."
> 
> Glad I read that and saved my 10 bucks. If your gonna bash your 20 year profession you want to make sure you are knowledgeable about what you were suppose to be doing in those 20 years. His credibility is shot with the synopsis of his book. Opps...



Oh, he knew exactly what he was doing.  He was much more fundamentalist and pentecostal than you can imagine.
You have to read the book.  Don't let someone else's thoughts prevent you from growth.  It will either build one's own personal faith, or it will stimulate their desire to investigate.


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## georgiabow (Mar 14, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> If I was defined anything now, it would be Agnostic. I dont necessarily believe in a god, but who knows if we have one or not. I lean towards no, but my whole answer to the question is " I dont know and guess what, niether do you".



i agree with this position, as i have the same perspective. i absolutely do NOT believe in god, but i accept that there is no way to officially dis-count the existence. so therefore, like you, i am basically agnostic, leaning toward "no".

i feel that it is the most logical position possible.


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## stringmusic (Mar 14, 2011)

georgiabow said:


> i agree with this position, as i have the same perspective. i absolutely do NOT believe in god, but i accept that there is no way to officially dis-count the existence. so therefore, like you, i am basically agnostic, leaning toward "no".
> 
> i feel that it is the *most logical position possible*.



..... with your feet firmly planted in mid-air.


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## atlashunter (Mar 14, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> ..... with your feet firmly planted in mid-air.



It's just as logical to say there is no evidence of a god as it is to say there is no evidence of leprechauns and fairies. Where are your feet planted on these matters?


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## georgiabow (Mar 14, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> ..... with your feet firmly planted in mid-air.



says one who has his feet firmly planted in the idea of this world being created in 6 days by a man living in the sky.


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## stringmusic (Mar 14, 2011)

georgiabow said:


> says one who has his feet firmly planted in the idea of this world being created in 6 days by* a man *living in the sky.



Wrong.


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## stringmusic (Mar 14, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> It's just as logical to say there is no evidence of a god as it is to say there is no evidence of leprechauns and fairies.


Not even close





> Where are your feet planted on these matters?



They do not exist, and if they did, it would not change my life one bit.


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## georgiabow (Mar 14, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Wrong.


the plot thickens.....


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## georgiabow (Mar 14, 2011)

stringmusic...... one question about your sig......

"If there were no God, there would be no atheists." G.K. Chesterton 

so basically, it is saying that since there are people who dont believe in god, then that itself is proof of god.... correct?


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## stringmusic (Mar 14, 2011)

georgiabow said:


> stringmusic...... one question about your sig......
> 
> "If there were no God, there would be no atheists." G.K. Chesterton
> 
> so basically, it is saying that since there are people who dont believe in god, then that itself is proof of god.... correct?



 If there were no God, there would be no one here to be an atheist.


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## georgiabow (Mar 14, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> If there were no God, there would be no one here to be an atheist.



lol


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## atlashunter (Mar 14, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Not even close



Really? Where is the evidence then?




stringmusic said:


> They do not exist, and if they did, it would not change my life one bit.



How do you know they don't exist? Can you prove it?




stringmusic said:


> If there were no God, there would be no one here to be an atheist.



The same flimsy logic can be applied to every creation myth ever dreamed up. I guess that proves them all true.


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## georgiabow (Mar 14, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> The same flimsy logic can be applied to every creation myth ever dreamed up. I guess that proves them all true.



yes it can. 

there is a 30 foot tall, invisible tyrannosaurus rex standing behind you, and licking his lips right now. if he wasnt, then there wouldnt be anyone around right now saying he wasnt.


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## stringmusic (Mar 14, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Really? Where is the *evidence* then?


God has changed* my life*, a fairy has not.





> How do you know they don't exist? Can you prove it?


I have faith they do not exist. No, I cannot prove it.






> The same flimsy logic can be applied to every creation myth ever dreamed up. I guess that proves them all true.


Its a quote!?!?!?


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## atlashunter (Mar 14, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> God has changed* my life*, a fairy has not.



I hope you have more than personal experience as evidence of your god's existence. If not, you're in the same camp as the leprechaun/fairy believers.




stringmusic said:


> I have faith they do not exist. No, I cannot prove it.



With feet firmly planted in mid air?




stringmusic said:


> Its a quote!?!?!?



Yes I know. Every time I read one of your Chesterton quotes I'm reminded of this guy.


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## stringmusic (Mar 14, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> I hope you have more than personal experience as evidence of your god's existence. If not, you're in the same camp as the leprechaun/fairy believers.


I dont feel I need more than personal experience.






> With feet firmly planted in mid air?


no, I believe in the absolute truth that there are no fairys or leprechauns.






> Yes I know. Every time I read one of your Chesterton quotes I'm reminded of this guy.


You might like Chesterton, google Chesterton quotes and read some of his politcal and economic quotes.
http://chesterton.org/acs/quotes.htm#Economic Theory and Distributism


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## atlashunter (Mar 14, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I dont feel I need more than personal experience.



Nor do many alien abductees and leprechaun witnesses.




stringmusic said:


> no, I believe in the absolute truth that there are no fairys or leprechauns.



And based on the lack of evidence georgiabow has just as much reason to think your God is a fairy tale. Can't say that I blame him.


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## stringmusic (Mar 14, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Nor do many alien abductees and leprechaun witnesses.


I dont believe aliens or leprechauns change anyones life, and if they claim they do, well thats fine with me. I dont ever think there would be a forum for them, and I wouldnt go around calling myself an aleprechaunist.


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## atlashunter (Mar 14, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I dont believe aliens or leprechauns change anyones life, and if they claim they do, well thats fine with me. I dont ever think there would be a forum for them, and I wouldnt go around calling myself an aleprechaunist.



You might if you lived in a world dominated by people who believed in them and who wanted to have pots of gold at the end of the rainbow taught in your kids science class and so on.

This is speculation but I'm betting that if you ask someone who really sincerely believes they had an alien abduction experience if it changed their life they will most likely answer in the affirmative. But whether something changes your life or not is irrelevant to the question of whether or not it is true.


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## stringmusic (Mar 14, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> You might if you lived in a world dominated by people who believed in them and who wanted to have pots of gold at the end of the rainbow taught in your kids science class and so on.


but we dont, that should tell you something.



> This is speculation but I'm betting that if you ask someone who really sincerely believes they had an alien abduction experience if it changed their life they will most likely answer in the affirmative. *But whether something changes your life or not is irrelevant to the question of whether or not it is true*.


Try that in a court room where the truth is trying to be determined.


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## Achilles Return (Mar 14, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> If there were no God, there would be no one here to be an atheist.



This is obviously not the case, because generic religions would exist in either case.


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## Achilles Return (Mar 14, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I dont feel I need more than personal experience.



You do.


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## Achilles Return (Mar 14, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Try that in a court room where the truth is trying to be determined.



Then those hijackers that had their lives changed by Islam is evidence for its truth? 

The problem is that everything you're talking about as evidence for your religion isn't exclusive. Any other non-christian religious person could claim the same things. 

The things you are mentioning as evidence, isn't.


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## Thanatos (Mar 14, 2011)

String give it up. These atheist know to much. We can not win. They know more than God. Just give it up. We are no match for their superior intellect.


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## Achilles Return (Mar 14, 2011)

And here comes that cop out again. Sorry, but I haven't seen anything in this thread that hasn't been an attempt to refute the opposing point. That's all we're doing. How does that have you all riled up?


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## Thanatos (Mar 15, 2011)

WTM45 said:


> Oh, he knew exactly what he was doing.  He was much more fundamentalist and pentecostal than you can imagine.
> You have to read the book.  Don't let someone else's thoughts prevent you from growth.  It will either build one's own personal faith, or it will stimulate their desire to investigate.



It was not someone else's thoughts. It was the official synopsis of the book on Ibooks through Itunes. Pretty sure he had to sign off on that before they posted it since everyone looking to buy his book would see it before they purchased it.


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## Thanatos (Mar 15, 2011)

Achilles Return said:


> And here comes that cop out again. Sorry, but I haven't seen anything in this thread that hasn't been an attempt to refute the opposing point. That's all we're doing. How does that have you all riled up?



The problem is that I admit that I am debating with you and admitting my ignorance and would like to learn more. Most of the agnostic/atheist argue from a point of pride and knowledge that no man can, nor will ever have. 

The feeling of empowerment you feel because you are "free" from God is probably to close to the same feeling of freedom I receive from being with God. It is silly and illogical for you to preach about  things (theological and earthly matters) that you guys don't know .000000001% about. It is funny and maddening at the same time. 

I love your Carl Sagan quote by the way. Pale Blue Dot is one of my favorite pictures of all time.


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## georgiabow (Mar 15, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> The feeling of empowerment you feel because you are "free" from God is probably to close to the same feeling of freedom I receive from being with God.



no feeling of empowerment. just a feeling of freedom from not having to live your life everyday within the guidelines of a book, and having to go through life everyday believing that you are a wretched, vile, evil sinner.


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## atlashunter (Mar 15, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> but we dont, that should tell you something.



What it tells me is people tend to be rational about what they aren't indoctrinated from childhood to believe. You're applying a much lower bar for the God belief than the laeprechaun belief.


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## atlashunter (Mar 15, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> The problem is that I admit that I am debating with you and admitting my ignorance and would like to learn more. Most of the agnostic/atheist argue from a point of pride and knowledge that no man can, nor will ever have.
> 
> The feeling of empowerment you feel because you are "free" from God is probably to close to the same feeling of freedom I receive from being with God. It is silly and illogical for you to preach about  things (theological and earthly matters) that you guys don't know .000000001% about. It is funny and maddening at the same time.



Many atheists know more about theological matters than you give them credit for and Dan Barker would be one of them. Many of us have been where you are. I grew up in it.

And I'm sorry but you cannot take refuge in claiming ignorance because you are in fact claiming to know things you cannot know. The Christian claims knowledge of what happens after death, knowledge of how to make sure you are rewarded and not punished after death, knowledge of the thoughts words and nature of God, and even claims of personal two way communication with the creator of the universe. It is you and not the atheist who should know more than can normally be expected and who should be able to withstand scrutiny if the claims you make are true.


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## ambush80 (Mar 15, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> The problem is that I admit that I am debating with you and admitting my ignorance and would like to learn more. Most of the agnostic/atheist argue from a point of pride and knowledge that no man can, nor will ever have.
> 
> The feeling of empowerment you feel because you are "free" from God is probably to close to the same feeling of freedom I receive from being with God. It is silly and illogical for you to preach about  things (theological and earthly matters) that you guys don't know .000000001% about. It is funny and maddening at the same time.
> 
> I love your Carl Sagan quote by the way. Pale Blue Dot is one of my favorite pictures of all time.



I think the "freedom" you feel is the absence of having to try figure things out yourself.  I suppose there is a kind of freedom in simply following, if you trust whatever is guiding you.


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## stringmusic (Mar 15, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> I think the "freedom" you feel is the absence of having to try figure things out yourself.  I suppose there is a kind of freedom in simply following, if you trust whatever is guiding you.



I think "freedom" that you might feel is the presence of getting to choose whatever you decide to choose in whatever situation that may present itself. I suppose there is a kind of freedom in making things up as you go.


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## ambush80 (Mar 15, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I think "freedom" that you might feel is the presence of getting to choose whatever you decide to choose in whatever situation that may present itself. I suppose there is a kind of freedom in making things up as you go.



Indeed, there is. There is a freedom afforded by pragmatism.


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## atlashunter (Mar 15, 2011)

You're both making your own choices with every decision you face. The difference is ambush acknowledges the decision is solely his to make for better or worse while the theist says it is a deity telling them what decision to make.


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## ambush80 (Mar 15, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> You're both making your own choices with every decision you face. The difference is ambush acknowledges the decision is solely his to make for better or worse while the theist says it is a deity telling them what decision to make.



It's more dubious than that even.  Some people are being led away from reason by the ancient manuscripts of Middle Eastern herdsmen.

I can't believe how many times I see Christians talking about how one shouldn't trust the processes of their "natural mind".


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## Thanatos (Mar 15, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Many of us have been where you are.



HA! No you were not. Because you would not be filling yourself with the "i know more about theology" crap. You would know that your thoughts, your feelings are based a limited life and knowledge and you truly  do not know anything relatively to the knowledge to be had in this universe.


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## Thanatos (Mar 15, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> And I'm sorry but you cannot take refuge in claiming ignorance because you are in fact claiming to know things you cannot know. The Christian claims knowledge of what happens after death, knowledge of how to make sure you are rewarded and not punished after death, knowledge of the thoughts words and nature of God, and even claims of personal two way communication with the creator of the universe. It is you and not the atheist who should know more than can normally be expected and who should be able to withstand scrutiny if the claims you make are true.



I admit that i do not know more than you. You admit that you know more than me. Funny and maddening.


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## Thanatos (Mar 15, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> I think the "freedom" you feel is the absence of having to try figure things out yourself.  I suppose there is a kind of freedom in simply following, if you trust whatever is guiding you.



Amen!!! Could not have said it better myself.


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## Thanatos (Mar 15, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> You're both making your own choices with every decision you face. The difference is ambush acknowledges the decision is solely his to make for better or worse while the theist says it is a deity telling them what decision to make.



I do not even need to call you out about not knowing anything about theology. Almost every post let's us all know your DEEP theological knowledge,or lack thereof.


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## ambush80 (Mar 15, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> I admit that i do not know more than you. You admit that you know more than me. Funny and maddening.



Do you know what happens after death?  I don't.  You must know more than me.  What credible source did you get that information from again?


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## atlashunter (Mar 15, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> HA! No you were not. Because you would not be filling yourself with the "i know more about theology" crap. You would know that your thoughts, your feelings are based a limited life and knowledge and you truly  do not know anything relatively to the knowledge to be had in this universe.



See that part in red Thanatos? I'm gonna let you in on a little secret. Not only do I readily admit that it holds true for me, it holds true for every human being that has ever lived and ever will live including the men who wrote the bible. Chew on that for a while my friend.


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## atlashunter (Mar 15, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> I do not even need to call you out about not knowing anything about theology. Almost every post let's us all know your DEEP theological knowledge,or lack thereof.



Ok fine. You know more about theology than me. There are plenty of unanswered theological questions floating around on this forum. Instead of pointing out how little we know about theology why don't you enlighten us?


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## Thanatos (Mar 15, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> Do you know what happens after death?  I don't.  You must know more than me.  What credible source did you get that information from again?



What? I just said i dont KNOW what happens. I do have FAITH about where my soul is going there. BIG difference.


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## Thanatos (Mar 15, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> See that part in red Thanatos? I'm gonna let you in on a little secret. Not only do I readily admit that it holds true for me, it holds true for every human being that has ever lived and ever will live including the men who wrote the bible. Chew on that for a while my friend.



O man...you truly where never in my position.


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## atlashunter (Mar 15, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> What? I just said i dont KNOW what happens. I do have FAITH about where my soul is going there. BIG difference.



And how do you define faith?


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## Thanatos (Mar 15, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Ok fine. You know more about theology than me. There are plenty of unanswered theological questions floating around on this forum. Instead of pointing out how little we know about theology why don't you enlighten us?



I probably do not know more than you, and I probably know just a little more theology than you.  My point is GET OFF THESE HUNTING FORUMS AND READ BOTH ATHEIST AND THEIST BOOKS AND MAKE YOUR OWN DECISION. Do not justify your entrenched position. In fact read more theist books than atheist to make sure you are not giving in to your views you hold now.


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## Thanatos (Mar 15, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> And how do you define faith?



A belief in a person or concept.


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## atlashunter (Mar 15, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> I probably do not know more than you, and I probably know just a little more theology than you.  My point is GET OFF THESE HUNTING FORUMS AND READ BOTH ATHEIST AND THEIST BOOKS AND MAKE YOUR OWN DECISION. Do not justify your entrenched position. In fact read more theist books than atheist to make sure you are not giving in to your views you hold now.



I do read more than you realize. I'm reading A History of God right now by Karen Armstrong. Have you read it? I also regularly listen to both sides of the debate by the best each side has to offer. The more I listen to William Lane Craig and Dinesh D'Souza the less convinced I become of their positions. Why then would I spend time and money reading their books? What you don't seem to understand is I've already been on the other side of the fence and it was a process that took years to get to this side. I take part in the discussion here because I enjoy it.


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## atlashunter (Mar 15, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> A belief in a person or concept.



Based on what?


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## Thanatos (Mar 15, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> I do read more than you realize. I'm reading A History of God right now by Karen Armstrong. Have you read it? I also regularly listen to both sides of the debate by the best each side has to offer. The more I listen to William Lane Craig and Dinesh D'Souza the less convinced I become of their positions. Why then would I spend time and money reading their books? What you don't seem to understand is I've already been on the other side of the fence and it was a process that took years to get to this side. I take part in the discussion here because I enjoy it.



Well your theological reasoning needs some work...


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## Thanatos (Mar 15, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Based on what?



Based on the preponderance of evidence to be seen and enjoyed on this earth and the universe.


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## ambush80 (Mar 15, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> What? I just said i dont KNOW what happens. I do have FAITH about where my soul is going there. BIG difference.



You do know where you are going, based on faith; meaning, based on no proof.

From Webster:

2
a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof.


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## ambush80 (Mar 15, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> Based on the preponderance of evidence to be seen and enjoyed on this earth and the universe.



The odor of feces gives you proof of Heaven?  Not everything in the Universe is so lovely.


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## atlashunter (Mar 15, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> Based on the preponderance of evidence to be seen and enjoyed on this earth and the universe.



As has already been pointed out if you have a preponderance of evidence then faith probably is not the best word to use describing your belief. On close inspection I think we both know your evidence is probably not as strong as you'd have us believe. You're walking a very thin line of admitting ignorance while claiming a preponderance of evidence to support your belief. I'm not fooled and I doubt anyone else is.


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## Thanatos (Mar 16, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> The odor of feces gives you proof of Heaven?  Not everything in the Universe is so lovely.



What is wonderful is the systems of the body that allowed someone to eat something, then take all the nutrients out of it and then discard what is left. Also, the systems of the body that allow me to see and smell the poop are amazing. While the smell taken in from the poop is not great the processes allowing the the poop to be there and me receive stimuli from it are amazing. Haha


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## Thanatos (Mar 16, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> You do know where you are going, based on faith; meaning, based on no proof.
> 
> From Webster:
> 
> ...



Your still not differentiating knowing from trusting. I have used this analogy before. You do not know your partner loves you. You do have faith, or you trust your partner loves you. Why do you have faith in this? Because of their actions and the evidence of that love.


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## atlashunter (Mar 16, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> What is wonderful is the systems of the body that allowed someone to eat something, then take all the nutrients out of it and then discard what is left. Also, the systems of the body that allow me to see and smell the poop are amazing. While the smell taken in from the poop is not great the processes allowing the the poop to be there and me receive stimuli from it are amazing. Haha



You're describing natural phenomena. How do you make the leap from natural phenomena with natural explanations to any supernatural explanation much less the one of your choosing?


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## Thanatos (Mar 16, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> You're describing natural phenomena. How do you make the leap from natural phenomena with natural explanations to any supernatural explanation much less the one of your choosing?



I think about it from a macro level of how those systems came to be the way they are. By macro I mean universe first then down to sub atomic particle scale.


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## atlashunter (Mar 16, 2011)

All well and good but it doesn't answer the question. How do you look at natural phenomena and draw supernatural conclusions from it?


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## Thanatos (Mar 17, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> All well and good but it doesn't answer the question. How do you look at natural phenomena and draw supernatural conclusions from it?



We have discussed this MANY times the past couple of years and you can search my name and find details of my beliefs. The quick answer is that if you look at the probability of the chain of events that needed to happen a billion years ago up into now in order for us to be typing to each other right now it is blindingly obvious that God had his hand in it. Or at least...that is what i have faith in


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2011)

God having a hand in it over billions of years and the way it is written in the Bible are two completely different beliefs. Which one do you lean towards?


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## atlashunter (Mar 17, 2011)

I think it's an error to think because the chances of something are extremely small that it required supernatural involvement. Go out tonight and look up at the stars. Consider what the odds would be that that particular little bit of energy from each star would hit your eyes. We aren't only talking about the chances of your being here but also the confluence of time, the motion of the earth, the particular position you are standing etc. Unbelievably tiny odds and yet it happens every time you look at the night sky. No deity is required in this. Also consider all of the light that didn't reach your eye. Most of the potential creatures that could have been, aren't and never will be. You could have been not here just as easily as one of your unconceived potential siblings. Think you were somehow more special than them and thus divinely chosen? I see no reason to believe that. Keep that in mind when you consider the odds and you'll realize it's exactly what should be expected in a purely natural universe.


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## JFS (Mar 17, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> the probability of the chain of events that needed to happen a billion years ago up into now in order for us to be typing to each other right now



I think that begs the question.  If there are say a billion different possible outcomes, which ever one occurs only had a one in a billion chance.   You can't say after it occurs that the fact that it occurred proves any thing.  Who knows, this could be a crappy outcome compared to a lot of the other potential outcomes, and claiming divine interevention because we got stuck with a crappy outcome that we only had a one in a billion chance of getting stuck with would seem inappropriate.


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2011)

> I think it's an error to think because the chances of something are extremely small that it required supernatural involvement. Go out tonight and look up at the stars. Consider what the odds would be that that particular little bit of energy from each star would hit your eyes. We aren't only talking about the chances of your being here but also the confluence of time, the motion of the earth, the particular position you are standing etc. Unbelievably tiny odds and yet it happens every time you look at the night sky. No deity is required in this. Also consider all of the light that didn't reach your eye. Most of the potential creatures that could have been, aren't and never will be. You could have been not here just as easily as one of your unconceived potential siblings. Think you were somehow more special than them and thus divinely chosen? I see no reason to believe that. Keep that in mind when you consider the odds and you'll realize it's exactly what should be expected in a purely natural universe.
> __________________
> It is no crime to be ignorant of economics...But it is totally irresponsible to have a loud and vociferous opinion on economic subjects while remaining in this state of ignorance. ~Murray Rothbard
> Reply With Quote



Not to mention that somewhere near each of those stars there could be life. I wonder if those inhabitants found their scriptures yet?


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## atlashunter (Mar 17, 2011)

Put another much simpler way is it possible for incredibly rare events to happen on their own in the natural world without supernatural intervention?


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## Thanatos (Mar 18, 2011)

bullethead said:


> God having a hand in it over billions of years and the way it is written in the Bible are two completely different beliefs. Which one do you lean towards?



_1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

 3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. 
_
Time as we know it was created in versus 3, 4, and 5.


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## Thanatos (Mar 18, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Not to mention that somewhere near each of those stars there could be life. I wonder if those inhabitants found their scriptures yet?



Why would life existing outside our solar system tell us my God is false. Using logical thought to think about this...extraterrestrial life and God are not mutually exclusive. I do not know why people are stuck on that.


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## Thanatos (Mar 18, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> I think it's an error to think because the chances of something are extremely small that it required supernatural involvement. Go out tonight and look up at the stars. Consider what the odds would be that that particular little bit of energy from each star would hit your eyes. We aren't only talking about the chances of your being here but also the confluence of time, the motion of the earth, the particular position you are standing etc. Unbelievably tiny odds and yet it happens every time you look at the night sky. No deity is required in this. Also consider all of the light that didn't reach your eye. Most of the potential creatures that could have been, aren't and never will be. You could have been not here just as easily as one of your unconceived potential siblings. Think you were somehow more special than them and thus divinely chosen? I see no reason to believe that. Keep that in mind when you consider the odds and you'll realize it's exactly what should be expected in a purely natural universe.



As I stated earlier go and read our other post on this exact matter. If you want to dismiss the evidence in front of you that is fine. If you care to be objective about what you just posted instead of writing your "opinion" then read the book The Privileged Planet. If you want I will buy the book and send it to you for free if you promise to read it. It is not an easy read. Lots of science and math. But, after reading it you will not make such silly statements as the one you posted above.


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## gtparts (Mar 18, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> I think it's an error to think because the chances of something are extremely small that it required supernatural involvement. Go out tonight and look up at the stars. Consider what the odds would be that that particular little bit of energy from each star would hit your eyes. We aren't only talking about the chances of your being here but also the confluence of time, the motion of the earth, the particular position you are standing etc. Unbelievably tiny odds and yet it happens every time you look at the night sky. No deity is required in this. Also consider all of the light that didn't reach your eye. Most of the potential creatures that could have been, aren't and never will be. You could have been not here just as easily as one of your unconceived potential siblings. Think you were somehow more special than them and thus divinely chosen? I see no reason to believe that. Keep that in mind when you consider the odds and you'll realize it's exactly what should be expected in a purely natural universe.





Thanatos said:


> As I stated earlier go and read our other post on this exact matter. If you want to dismiss the evidence in front of you that is fine. If you care to be objective about what you just posted instead of writing your "opinion" then read the book The Privileged Planet. If you want I will buy the book and send it to you for free if you promise to read it. It is not an easy read. Lots of science and math. But, after reading it you will not make such silly statements as the one you posted above.



Another book that highlights the issue of compatibility between science and there being a creator is The Case for a Creator by Lee Strobel, a good read, along with The Case for Christ    and The Case for Faith.


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## bullethead (Mar 18, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> _1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
> 
> 3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
> _
> Time as we know it was created in versus 3, 4, and 5.



I am going to try to be as clear as I can.
You Quoting Biblical verses as proof to me is like me quoting verses from the Koran, Satanic Bible, or sentences from Sports Illustrated as proof to you.
The only positive thing I can say about any of them is that they are interesting reads when I'm on the crapper.
I'm sure you have zero faith in my examples and that is exactly what I feel about yours.

Being that I am conversing with a guy that uses a nickname that represents a figure in Greek Mythology that represents Death and is described as having "a heart of iron, and his spirit within him is pitiless as bronze: whomsoever of men he has once seized he holds fast: and he is hateful even to the deathless gods" ...I find it hard to believe that your only "proof" of anything is scripture . I can easily use scripture to show the inconsistencies within it though too.

Lets Play,

Which is it? When was time created?
GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.

GE 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created.
GE 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.

GE 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.

GE 1:31 God was pleased with his creation.
GE 6:5-6 God was not pleased with his creation.


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## bullethead (Mar 18, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> Why would life existing outside our solar system tell us my God is false. Using logical thought to think about this...extraterrestrial life and God are not mutually exclusive. I do not know why people are stuck on that.



IF....there is life outside of our solar system, using your beliefs God would have had to create it. I'm guessing his favorite species would also be made in his likeness then too. Is it fair to speculate that he would have started them out the same way? A man and a woman with free will, give them the option of Sin and then punish them for using free will? Inspire some others to write about it? Punish the ones using free will that do not believe those writings? Send yet another Son to save all of them...??
Or, did he see where he really screwed up here and then did it right somewhere else?


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## atlashunter (Mar 18, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> _1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
> 
> 3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
> _
> Time as we know it was created in versus 3, 4, and 5.



I would give verses 3-5 the benefit of the doubt that it means the sun and night and day here on earth, not time itself. If you choose the interpretation that this is the creation of time itself that puts you in an even worse position. You're saying that matter and the earth predate time. But even with the more generous interpretation it is still problematic because that would mean the earth was formed before the sun.


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## stringmusic (Mar 18, 2011)

bullethead said:


> IF....there is life outside of our solar system, using your beliefs God would have had to create it. I'm guessing his favorite species would also be made in his likeness then too. Is it fair to speculate that he would have started them out the same way? A man and a woman with free will, give them the option of Sin and then punish them for using free will? Inspire some others to write about it? Punish the ones using free will that do not believe those writings? Send yet another Son to save all of them...??
> Or, did he see where he really screwed up here and then did it* right *somewhere else?


What exactly is the "right" thing?


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## bullethead (Mar 18, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> What exactly is the "right" thing?



I am but a lowly human so don't put too much merit with this reply...
If I were the supreme being that created all this, I'd be very unhappy with my work. I would not have settled for mediocrity.


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## stringmusic (Mar 18, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I am but a lowly human so don't put too much merit with this reply...
> If I were the supreme being that created all this, I'd be very unhappy with my work. I would not have settled for mediocrity.



What are some ways that you think He could be happy with His work?


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## bullethead (Mar 18, 2011)

C'mon now.....
I am sure that when you start out to build something, raise your children, or do your job you try to do them to the best of your ability. If you were capable of foreseeing, preventing and fixing anything that could go wrong with any of those you would. If you were capable of being infallible and omnipotent it would show in your work.


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## atlashunter (Mar 18, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> What are some ways that you think He could be happy with His work?



Not drowning it might be a good start.


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## ted_BSR (Mar 19, 2011)

Poooooop! LOL Poooooop!!! LOL

For real ya'll!!!! This is the best Pee Wee Herman thread of all time!!

Pooooop!!!! LOL


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## ted_BSR (Mar 19, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> Poooooop! LOL Poooooop!!! LOL
> 
> For real ya'll!!!! This is the best Pee Wee Herman thread of all time!!
> 
> Pooooop!!!! LOL



That's right, I quoted myself!!!

So much for intelligent discussion!!!!


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## JFS (Mar 19, 2011)

Someone has been in the sacramental wine again.


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## vowell462 (Mar 19, 2011)

JFS said:


> Someone has been in the sacramental wine again.



Everytime I hear the words " sacramental wine" I cant help but think off that Mel Brooks scene in Robin Hood Men in Tights.


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## Thanatos (Mar 19, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I am going to try to be as clear as I can.
> You Quoting Biblical verses as proof to me is like me quoting verses from the Koran, Satanic Bible, or sentences from Sports Illustrated as proof to you.
> The only positive thing I can say about any of them is that they are interesting reads when I'm on the crapper.
> I'm sure you have zero faith in my examples and that is exactly what I feel about yours.
> ...



Why do you guys always get hung up on my user tag? Think of it as Thanatos of the deer and turkey woods...lol.


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## Thanatos (Mar 19, 2011)

bullethead said:


> IF....there is life outside of our solar system, using your beliefs God would have had to create it. I'm guessing his favorite species would also be made in his likeness then too. Is it fair to speculate that he would have started them out the same way? A man and a woman with free will, give them the option of Sin and then punish them for using free will? Inspire some others to write about it? Punish the ones using free will that do not believe those writings? Send yet another Son to save all of them...??
> Or, did he see where he really screwed up here and then did it right somewhere else?



Who knows? What i do know is that his other creations would be subject the normal laws of science of our universe. What moral code he imbued in them is only a guessing game like you were alluding to. Some thing else to think about is how many universes has my Judeo Christian God created? That is always fun to think about.


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## Thanatos (Mar 19, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> I would give verses 3-5 the benefit of the doubt that it means the sun and night and day here on earth, not time itself. If you choose the interpretation that this is the creation of time itself that puts you in an even worse position. You're saying that matter and the earth predate time. But even with the more generous interpretation it is still problematic because that would mean the earth was formed before the sun.



No sir. Just because we did not have a sun and "time" yet does not mean that other solar systems were not created yet. Meaning other galaxies, solar systems had their stars and planets revolving around them...giving them their definition of "time". Think about it from a cosmic stance instead of an earthly stance. It took a LONG time for earth to become PERFECT for us. You should really read The Privileged Planet.


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## atlashunter (Mar 19, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> No sir. Just because we did not have a sun and "time" yet does not mean that other solar systems were not created yet. Meaning other galaxies, solar systems had their stars and planets revolving around them...giving them their definition of "time". Think about it from a cosmic stance instead of an earthly stance. It took a LONG time for earth to become PERFECT for us. You should really read The Privileged Planet.



I really hope I'm not understanding what you are saying here.


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## Thanatos (Mar 19, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> I really hope I'm not understanding what you are saying here.



I have no idea. What do you think your not understanding?


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## atlashunter (Mar 19, 2011)

Are you saying time didn't exist prior to the formation of the earth and sun?


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## ted_BSR (Mar 20, 2011)

JFS said:


> Someone has been in the sacramental wine again.



Yup, you called, sorry guys!


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## huntfourfun (Mar 20, 2011)

Hoyt Mathews said:


> Most of us came from a religious background and were taught the standard Bible stories. I am always curious as to what pushed each of us away from the fold. Please share your deconversion story with us.



The hypocrisy and alienation of religious right..........they are their own worst enemy.


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## Thanatos (Mar 20, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Are you saying time didn't exist prior to the formation of the earth and sun?



Just the opposite. When time began in our universe is called the Planck Epoch. You might know it as the Big Bang theory. 

Time is a relative term. You should know all this information if you are on a level to declare there is no God.


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## Thanatos (Mar 20, 2011)

bullethead said:


> C'mon now.....
> I am sure that when you start out to build something, raise your children, or do your job you try to do them to the best of your ability. If you were capable of foreseeing, preventing and fixing anything that could go wrong with any of those you would. If you were capable of being infallible and omnipotent it would show in your work.



Bullethead can you name all the presidents of the united states in order from memory?


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> Bullethead can you name all the presidents of the united states in order from memory?



Now, no. Back in the 5th grade I could. If I HAD to know it in order to benefit my life, I could learn it again. There was a time I HAD to know all of the books in the bible too, what exactly is your point?


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> Why do you guys always get hung up on my user tag? Think of it as Thanatos of the deer and turkey woods...lol.



Ok, sure.

Where did you GET that name from? Did you believe Thanatos to be real or just a fable or someone from Greek mythology?


Then, if you'd like,you can answer my other questions I asked in that post.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> Who knows? What i do know is that his other creations would be subject the normal laws of science of our universe. What moral code he imbued in them is only a guessing game like you were alluding to. Some thing else to think about is how many universes has my Judeo Christian God created? That is always fun to think about.



What are the normal laws of science? Moral and immoral code rules the roost on earth. Look in the sky and count the stars, there are your other universes...we are not special here. if you believe God created one of them then you have to believe he created all of them. He IS the creator right?
I'd bet my finest deer rifle and turkey shotgun that life on any other planet has not a clue about a Judeo Christian God or beliefs.


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## Thanatos (Mar 20, 2011)

bullethead said:


> What are the normal laws of science? Moral and immoral code rules the roost on earth. Look in the sky and count the stars, there are your other universes...we are not special here. if you believe God created one of them then you have to believe he created all of them. He IS the creator right?
> I'd bet my finest deer rifle and turkey shotgun that life on any other planet has not a clue about a Judeo Christian God or beliefs.



The laws of science that govern our universe. The laws of quantum mechanics and the theory of general relativity. Another discussion for another day is the unification of these two laws. 

You do know that what you are seeing in the night sky are others stars in our galaxy and our universe. You can't see other universes. 

Your 100% correct about alien life not knowing the Judeo Christian God and I never said they would.


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## Thanatos (Mar 20, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Ok, sure.
> 
> Where did you GET that name from? Did you believe Thanatos to be real or just a fable?
> 
> ...



We can sit here all day and argue bible versus, but i thought you said the Bible does not matter?


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## Thanatos (Mar 20, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Now, no. Back in the 5th grade I could. If I HAD to know it in order to benefit my life, I could learn it again. There was a time I HAD to know all of the books in the bible too, what exactly is your point?



So you can't name all of our presidents, but you feel comfortable telling us what you would and would not do as God?


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> We can sit here all day and argue bible versus, but i thought you said the Bible does not matter?



To me the bible does not matter, but it is the ONLY tool to use against the people that try to pass it's contents off as fact.
For me, actually reading the Bible put the nails in the coffin as to why I believe it is not true. I think it is a good book, some wise words to live by, but for every "good" thing there are numerous examples of ridiculous verses too. 
I don't believe in Mighty Mouse or Superman, but I can have a conversation about them. Same goes for Bigfoot, Unicorns, ghosts, and the Loch Ness Monster.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2011)

Now see, there you go. You read too many chain emails....

I never claimed to be infallible or omnipotent. But if I were and wanted to "create" something, it would not be this mess. If I had a "Creators Kit", I could do a much better job right now, no Omnipotence needed. 

I don't have 100 million dollars either, but I can tell you what I'd do if I did.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> So you can't name all of our presidents, but you feel comfortable telling us what you would and would not do as God?



When I was a kid I could fly and single handily bring down the Death Star with just a light saber too. Being that I put God on the same fictional level, yeah I am qualified.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2011)

Thanatos, did you pick that name because it was a real person or entity, or was it because it was a cool story and it fit your hunting persona?


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## atlashunter (Mar 20, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> Just the opposite. When time began in our universe is called the Planck Epoch. You might know it as the Big Bang theory.
> 
> Time is a relative term. You should know all this information if you are on a level to declare there is no God.



Ok I guess I misunderstood you to be disagreeing with me when you said "No sir". So it appears we agree time did not begin with our planet or solar system and the most generous interpretation of those scriptures attributes light not to light itself (which also predates earth) but our sun. That being the case how do you reconcile the vast amount of time between the beginning of our universe and the beginning of our planet and verse 1 that indicates the heavens and the earth were created in the beginning?

When I read Genesis it doesn't give me the impression that this is coming from someone who was aware of galaxies or a big bang or evolution or the time scales involved. It should if it were really the words of the one who created all of it.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> The laws of science that govern our universe. The laws of quantum mechanics and the theory of general relativity. Another discussion for another day is the unification of these two laws.
> 
> You do know that what you are seeing in the night sky are others stars in our galaxy and our universe. You can't see other universes.
> 
> Your 100% correct about alien life not knowing the Judeo Christian God and I never said they would.



Yes I do realize the stars we see are in our universe. We don't have a clue whether or not there is life near one or all of those stars, let alone what is going on outside of our universe.

If the Judeo Christian God created everything then how could life elsewhere not know about it/him/she...? Your line of thought on alien life not knowing him helps the argument that he did not create them. I doubt we got special treatment either.


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## Thanatos (Mar 20, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Thanatos, did you pick that name because it was a real person or entity, or was it because it was a cool story and it fit your hunting persona?



I love Greek and Roman mythology.


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## Thanatos (Mar 20, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Ok I guess I misunderstood you to be disagreeing with me when you said "No sir". So it appears we agree time did not begin with our planet or solar system and the most generous interpretation of those scriptures attributes light not to light itself (which also predates earth) but our sun. That being the case how do you reconcile the vast amount of time between the beginning of our universe and the beginning of our planet and verse 1 that indicates the heavens and the earth were created in the beginning?
> 
> When I read Genesis it doesn't give me the impression that this is coming from someone who was aware of galaxies or a big bang or evolution or the time scales involved. It should if it were really the words of the one who created all of it.



1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

 3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

It is called the Gap Theory.


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## Thanatos (Mar 20, 2011)

bullethead said:


> If the Judeo Christian God created everything then how could life elsewhere not know about it/him/she...? Your line of thought on alien life not knowing him helps the argument that he did not create them. I doubt we got special treatment either.



All speculation, but they could know Him by a different name and could represent something completely different to them.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> I love Greek and Roman mythology.



I understand that and I think there is nothing wrong with it. But you questioned me about using the bible even though I don't believe it, yet you do the same thing with mythology. What is the difference?


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> All speculation, but they could know Him by a different name and could represent something completely different to them.



"could", yep


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## Thanatos (Mar 20, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I understand that and I think there is nothing wrong with it. But you questioned me about using the bible even though I don't believe it, yet you do the same thing with mythology. What is the difference?



What are you talking about? I want you to use the Bible. Name your Gon user tag Paul, Daniel, Moses...whatever you want. Am I not following your point?


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> We can sit here all day and argue bible versus, but i thought you said the Bible does not matter?



That was your reply to me. I use it to get my points across also, even though I do not believe it.

The point I was trying to make is that we can use things like bible verses.."me" and mythological names..."you" even though each of us do not think they are real.

Nothing more


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## ted_BSR (Mar 21, 2011)

bullethead said:


> That was your reply to me. I use it to get my points across also, even though I do not believe it.
> 
> The point I was trying to make is that we can use things like bible verses.."me" and mythological names..."you" even though each of us do not think they are real.
> 
> Nothing more



Maybe I'll start quoting Green Eggs and Ham. Then you guys will surely believe!!! Afterall, it totally rhymes!!!


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## bullethead (Mar 21, 2011)

It makes about as much sense as the Bible Ted.


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## stringmusic (Mar 21, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Ok I guess I misunderstood you to be disagreeing with me when you said "No sir". So it appears we agree time did not begin with our planet or solar system and the most generous interpretation of those scriptures attributes light not to light itself (which also predates earth) but our sun. That being the case how do you reconcile the vast amount of time between the beginning of our universe and the beginning of our planet and verse 1 that indicates the heavens and the earth were created in the beginning?
> 
> When I read Genesis it doesn't give me the impression that this is coming from someone who was aware of galaxies or a big bang or evolution or the time scales involved. It should if* it were really the words of the one who created all of it*.



God is not in the business of giving science lectures. The point of the Bible is not giving us a map of how the universe was created.


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## atlashunter (Mar 21, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> God is not in the business of giving science lectures. The point of the Bible is not giving us a map of how the universe was created.



Perhaps, but if a book handed down by the creator of the universe makes claims about the nature and origins of that universe we should expect it to line up with the evidence we gather.


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## stringmusic (Mar 21, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Perhaps, but if a book handed down by the creator of the universe makes claims about the nature and origins of that universe we should expect it to line up with the evidence we gather.



.... and it does, according to which bias one chooses to adopt before reading.


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## atlashunter (Mar 21, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> .... and it does, according to which bias one chooses to adopt before reading.



Sorry but no it doesn't. If you can make the Genesis account of creation fit with what we know about the origins of our universe and our species you can make just about any creation myth fit.


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## bullethead (Mar 21, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> God is not in the business of giving science lectures. The point of the Bible is not giving us a map of how the universe was created.



How are you able to know what exactly God is and is not in the business of? I think a supreme being that would ultimately KNOW how his future creations would smarten up and ask questions would cover those bases in his handbook. It's odd to me that all these tales abruptly stopped.


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## stringmusic (Mar 21, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Sorry but no it doesn't. If you can make the Genesis account of creation fit with what we know about the origins of our universe and our species you can make just about any creation myth fit.



I watched a show the other day on the science channel called "what happened before the big bang?". The science community is swirling with 1,000 different theories about how we came to be. So what exactly do we know?


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## atlashunter (Mar 21, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I watched a show the other day on the science channel called "what happened before the big bang?". The science community is swirling with 1,000 different theories about how we came to be. So what exactly do we know?



Do you think Genesis is describing what happened before the big bang?


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## stringmusic (Mar 21, 2011)

bullethead said:


> How are you able to know what exactly God is and is not in the business of? I think a supreme being that would ultimately KNOW how his future creations would smarten up and* ask questions *would cover those bases in his handbook. It's odd to me that all these tales abruptly stopped.



Maybe He didnt want us to know? Maybe we have no reason to know? I really dont know why it is not answered.


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## stringmusic (Mar 21, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Do you think Genesis is describing what happened before the big bang?



Possibly?


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## bullethead (Mar 21, 2011)

I doubt we actually know anything. But there is enough evidence in the scientific world that, even with a thousand different theories, to at least support a thousand different theories. I Bet none of them rely on faith.


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## bullethead (Mar 21, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Maybe He didnt want us to know? Maybe we have no reason to know? I really dont know why it is not answered.



Well he seemed to have wanted us to know up until 2000 or so years ago. My guess is that the church dropped the ball figuring that those stories would stand the test of time.


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## atlashunter (Mar 21, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Possibly?



Which verse?


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## stringmusic (Mar 21, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Which verse?



which verse is describing what happened before the big bang? If that is you question then Gen. 1:1 I guess. Like I said before, I dont know.


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## stringmusic (Mar 21, 2011)

bullethead said:


> *well he seemed to have wanted us to know up until 2000 or so years ago*. My guess is that the church dropped the ball figuring that those stories would stand the test of time.



? ?


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## atlashunter (Mar 21, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> which verse is describing what happened before the big bang? If that is you question then Gen. 1:1 I guess. Like I said before, I dont know.



"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

Were the heaven and the earth created before the big bang or after? I assume everything that happened after this point is post big bang? I'm not clear on why you brought this into the picture.


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## stringmusic (Mar 21, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Sorry but no it doesn't. If you can make the Genesis account of creation fit with* what we know about the origins of our universe and our species *you can make just about any creation myth fit.





stringmusic said:


> I watched a show the other day on the science channel called "what happened before the big bang?". The science community is swirling with 1,000 different theories about how we came to be.* So what exactly do we know*?





atlashunter said:


> "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."
> 
> Were the heaven and the earth created before the big bang or after? I assume everything that happened after this point is post big bang? I'm not clear on why you brought this into the picture.



The big bang stuff wasnt really my point, I used it to make my point that we really dont know.


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## bullethead (Mar 21, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> ? ?



Why for 5000 years did he inspire people to write down all of the stories about how the world started and how they should conduct themselves in those times( in his words mind you). That guide lasted until 2000 years ago when the New Testament was the last entries. Now in those 2000 years since the times have surely changed. Things included in those writings are no longer acceptable in today's era. They do not fit. Where are the answers to these questions? Where are the modern scrolls of God's word to sort out these questions?


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## atlashunter (Mar 21, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> The big bang stuff wasnt really my point, I used it to make my point that we really dont know.



I think you're getting a bit mixed up. There are many things that we don't know. That in no way serves to validate the Genesis account. Genesis doesn't square with what we do know. That's a problem. How do you deal with it?


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## stringmusic (Mar 21, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> I think you're getting a bit mixed up. There are many things that we don't know. That in no way serves to validate the Genesis account. Genesis doesn't square with what we do know. That's a problem. How do you deal with it?



What _do_ we know?


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## bullethead (Mar 21, 2011)

string, all we are asking is to back up the statements you are making. Instead of offering any sort of proof you offer nothing.


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## stringmusic (Mar 21, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I watched a show the other day on the science channel called "what happened before the big bang?". The science community is swirling with 1,000 different theories about how we came to be. *So what exactly do we know?*





stringmusic said:


> Maybe He didnt want us to know*?* Maybe we have no reason to know*?** I really dont know *why it is not answered.





stringmusic said:


> *Possibly?*





stringmusic said:


> which verse is describing what happened before the big bang*?* If that is you question then Gen. 1:1 I guess. Like I said before,* I dont know*.





stringmusic said:


> ? ?





stringmusic said:


> The big bang stuff wasnt really my point, I used it to make my point that we really *dont know*.





stringmusic said:


> *What do we know*?





bullethead said:


> string, all we are asking is to back up the statements you are making. Instead of offering any sort of proof you offer nothing.



Back up which statements?


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## bullethead (Mar 21, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> God is not in the business of giving science lectures. The point of the Bible is not giving us a map of how the universe was created.



You told us God is not in the business of giving science lectures and that the point of the bible is not giving us a map of how the universe was created.

What exactly is God in the business of? and What is the point of the Bible?


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## bullethead (Mar 21, 2011)

Lets say God and Logic cannot be included in your answer. What will you use?


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## atlashunter (Mar 21, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> What _do_ we know?



We know that stars, the earth, and the various species of life did not come about in 6 days. We know that the sequence of events described in the first chapter of Genesis can't be right. For example you couldn't have trees and grass before stars because the "stuff" trees and grass are made of were formed in stars. We have very strong evidence indicating that all life is interrelated and came in a sequence over a long period of time, not all formed in a short time frame. That includes us which if true means the first woman was not formed out of the rib of the first man. We know the earth is significantly older than mankind and we know that mankind has been here significantly longer than the 5 to 10,000 years biblical literalists say.

Given the possibilities that Genesis is man made myth or divinely inspired truth can you honestly say it appears to be more the latter than the former?


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## stringmusic (Mar 21, 2011)

bullethead said:


> What exactly is God in the business of?


Forgivness,grace, and love.




> and What is the point of the Bible?


God's revelation to man. A guidline book to this life and eternity.


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## stringmusic (Mar 21, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> We know that stars, the earth, and the various species of life did not come about in 6 days. We know that the sequence of events described in the first chapter of Genesis can't be right. For example you couldn't have trees and grass before stars because the "stuff" trees and grass are made of were formed in stars. We have very strong evidence indicating that all life is interrelated and came in a sequence over a long period of time, not all formed in a short time frame. That includes us which if true means the first woman was not formed out of the rib of the first man. We know the earth is significantly older than mankind and we know that mankind has been here significantly longer than the 5 to 10,000 years biblical literalists say.
> 
> Given the possibilities that Genesis is man made myth or divinely inspired truth can you honestly say it appears to be more the latter than the former?



All theories, this is what you choose to believe until a scientist comes up with a new theory with "strong evidence" swaying everyone the other way. Either way, "knowing" what we know in no way dispoves the Bible or God.


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## bullethead (Mar 21, 2011)

> =stringmusic;5880725]Forgivness,grace, and love.


And death, punishment and hate.





> God's revelation to man. A guidline book to this life and eternity.



Wow, poor choice for Authors.


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## atlashunter (Mar 21, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> All theories, this is what you choose to believe until a scientist comes up with a new theory with "strong evidence" swaying everyone the other way. Either way, "knowing" what we know in no way dispoves the Bible or God.



String I know you aren't going to be convinced otherwise because you don't want to be but I have to say with all due respect I feel bad for you. What you posted here is nothing short of willful ignorance. You can ignore the mountain of evidence that tells us much about the universe in contradiction to the claims the bible makes. There is nothing I or anyone else here can do to make you care if what you believe is actually true or not. But ignoring the evidence doesn't make it go away nor does it change reality. Don't take it as an insult, it's just sad.


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## Thanatos (Mar 21, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> String I know you aren't going to be convinced otherwise because you don't want to be but I have to say with all due respect I feel bad for you. What you posted here is nothing short of willful ignorance. You can ignore the mountain of evidence that tells us much about the universe in contradiction to the claims the bible makes. There is nothing I or anyone else here can do to make you care if what you believe is actually true or not. But ignoring the evidence doesn't make it go away nor does it change reality. Don't take it as an insult, it's just sad.



While I do not believe the universe was created in 6 days we can not prove that it was not. So chill out.


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