# Why I Attend WFR Church and Recommend you Check us Out



## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 8, 2022)

Have you checked us out?  This is the Robertson church (Duck Dynasty).


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## gordon 2 (Jul 8, 2022)

*The Bible itself, as the inspired and infallible Word of God that speaks with final authority concerning truth, morality, and the proper conduct of humankind, is the sole and final source of all that we believe.*


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## gordon 2 (Jul 8, 2022)

*But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you.*


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## gordon 2 (Jul 8, 2022)

Glad you got a home that suits you to a T.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 10, 2022)




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## 4HAND (Jul 10, 2022)

Why do they not allow musical instruments?


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 10, 2022)

4HAND said:


> Why do they not allow musical instruments?



Because I am immutable, and since God revealed himself to me "this way" he is obliged to reveal himself "this way" to everyone else on the face of the earth.  Oh wait?


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 12, 2022)

4HAND said:


> Why do they not allow musical instruments?



Why do you continue to hold against people errors of which they have repented?  

WFR does indeed allow musical instruments and they have them in about half their services.  The elders there are well aware that I'm a bass guitarist, and that my wife and I have a Messianic Music YouTube channel featuring guitar and bass.  They encourage us in this as well as my fishing videos and other ministry efforts.  Many in the Church of Christ denomination labored under the "no instrument" legalism for many years.  But I don't hold against people errors of which they have repented.  Why do you?


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## 4HAND (Jul 12, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Why do you continue to hold against people errors of which they have repented?
> 
> WFR does indeed allow musical instruments and they have them in about half their services.  The elders there are well aware that I'm a bass guitarist, and that my wife and I have a Messianic Music YouTube channel featuring guitar and bass.  They encourage us in this as well as my fishing videos and other ministry efforts.  Many in the Church of Christ denomination labored under the "no instrument" legalism for many years.  But I don't hold against people errors of which they have repented.  Why do you?


Why are you judging me while accusing me of judging others?
I have heard that Church of Christ does not have instruments.
I love music. I'm a musician in my church.
It was a simple question.

How was my question evidence I am "continuing to hold something against people"?


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 12, 2022)




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## Ruger#3 (Jul 12, 2022)

How do you fulfill the sacraments in an online church?


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## 4HAND (Jul 12, 2022)

Israel said:


> In light of LDB's answer, if it be true (which I have no reason to doubt...but I have not checked for myself) Do you see how, in your question
> 
> Why do they not allow musical instruments?
> 
> ...


You beat your wife?
You do know that's a crime, right?


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## 4HAND (Jul 12, 2022)

I did not know they were allowing instruments. I have watch episodes of Duck Dynasty where they were in Church & there were no musical instruments.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 12, 2022)

4HAND said:


> I did not know they were allowing instruments. I have watch episodes of Duck Dynasty where they were in Church & there were no musical instruments.


I thought it was an honest question considering that we all know LDB plays musical instruments. I found his response a bit quick considering your reason for asking was not negative.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 12, 2022)

I would agree with this from the WFR page;
*WE BELIEVE that Jesus will return some day. In the meantime we wait eagerly for Jesus’ triumphal return. *

l would think each Church of Christ may have different views. This from another Church of Christ;

"If, as some claim, there is no Hades or waiting place for the Christian, then how does one properly understand these passages? If the Christian goes directly to heaven when he dies, does he not receive the things done in his body before the Judgment (2 Cor 5:10)? If not, why not? It seems to me that these statements shows that the righteous and the unrighteous do not receive their full recompense of reward until after Judgment."


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 12, 2022)

Israel said:


> yeah, I don't doubt you have. but it looks like things have changed.
> 
> https://www.patheos.com/blogs/getreligion/2013/12/say-what-organ-music-at-duck-dynasty-church/


Or have they? It still seems inconclusive if the Church has an organ.


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## Ruger#3 (Jul 13, 2022)

Israel said:


> Sorry Art...I guess that article was not as conclusive as I thought... that was just the first article that popped up...(showing me the stupid one for also posting it)
> 
> But it looks like back in 2015 some congregations (it says something like 20 of 12,000) were going to implement the using of instruments in some of their services.
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-of-christ-instrumental-music/24499691/...and God knows how stupid I am for even posting this...not as in "stupid again"...but "stupid still."
> ...



You need to take a deep breath and contemplate. Two non-confrontational questions were asked to learn more about the church described by the OP. Now you on the defense, it’s unnecessary.


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## antharper (Jul 13, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Why do you continue to hold against people errors of which they have repented?
> 
> WFR does indeed allow musical instruments and they have them in about half their services.  The elders there are well aware that I'm a bass guitarist, and that my wife and I have a Messianic Music YouTube channel featuring guitar and bass.  They encourage us in this as well as my fishing videos and other ministry efforts.  Many in the Church of Christ denomination labored under the "no instrument" legalism for many years.  But I don't hold against people errors of which they have repented.  Why do you?


I was also curious ! And I don’t hold anything against anyone !


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 13, 2022)

4HAND said:


> I did not know they were allowing instruments. I have watch episodes of Duck Dynasty where they were in Church & there were no musical instruments.





Ruger#3 said:


> You need to take a deep breath and contemplate. Two non-confrontational questions were asked to learn more about the church described by the OP. Now you on the defense, it’s unnecessary.



As Israel pointed out, many will see a question that includes false testimony as confrontational.  It is an accusation of the same sort as "When are you going to stop beating your wife?"

Duck Dynasty ended 5 years ago. 

Have you ever seen me with a glass of wine in my hand?  Would you then conclude that I don't allow wine in my home? 

How smart is it to conclude that something is not allowed simply because it is not seen?


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 13, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> How do you fulfill the sacraments in an online church?



Most online services I've attended recommend someone in the home serve the Lord's supper or Communion.  These include Free Chapel, World Outreach Church, WFR Church, and many others.  They may exist, but I've never heard an online service say, "You need to come in person to receive Communion."  WFR has even officiated and/or witnessed and broadcast a number of remote baptisms.  

As priest in the home, why would not the husband and father be authorized to serve communion and baptize household members as necessary?  Do you deny the priesthood of believers?  

Church is "where ever two or more are gathered" in the name of Jesus.  Is an electronic gathering less legitimate than one in person?  Is a household attending church together in their home, but joining a larger group electronically less legitimate?  I understand many are more comfortable meeting "in person" and "in person" meeting should continue to best serve their needs.  But why show favoritism toward meetings "in person" if it is mutually agreeable to all to have some  join electronically?


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## 4HAND (Jul 13, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> As Israel pointed out, many will see a question that includes false testimony as confrontational.  It is an accusation of the same sort as "When are you going to stop beating your wife?"
> 
> Duck Dynasty ended 9 years ago.
> 
> ...



It was a simple question that led to you judging me while accusing me of judging others.
Where in that question was "false testimony"? 
Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 13, 2022)

I was wondering about musical instruments more related to the Church of Christ than just one individual Church. I've also wondered why it took many denominations years longer than some of the others to accept guitars over just the piano.
The only thing I can figure is the guitar might have been viewed as an instrument of sin related to night clubs. The fiddle was once thought to be the instrument of Satan.
In the late 60's-70's we had to go to Pentecostal Churches in my town to hear good Gospel music played on the guitar.


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## Browning Slayer (Jul 13, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Most online services I've attended recommend someone in the home serve the Lord's supper or Communion.  These include Free Chapel, World Outreach Church, WFR Church, and many others.  They may exist, but I've never heard an online service say, "You need to come in person to receive Communion."  WFR has even officiated and/or witnessed and broadcast a number of remote baptisms.
> 
> As priest in the home, why would not the husband and father be authorized to serve communion and baptize household members as necessary?  Do you deny the priesthood of believers?
> 
> Church is "where ever two or more are gathered" in the name of Jesus.  Is an electronic gathering less legitimate than one in person?  Is a household attending church together in their home, but joining a larger group electronically less legitimate?  I understand many are more comfortable meeting "in person" and "in person" meeting should continue to best serve their needs.  But why show favoritism toward meetings "in person" if it is mutually agreeable to all to have some  join electronically?


Do you still attend Free Chapel?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 13, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Have you checked us out?  This is the Robertson church (Duck Dynasty).


How does it fit in with y'all's Messianic background? 

I was reading that years ago that Church taught the gospel was for non-believers. In other words the lost were taught the gospel and congregation was taught the rest of the Old and New Testament Law so to speak. I probably ain't explaining this very well. Not judging, just trying to learn.


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## bullgator (Jul 13, 2022)

This thread reminds me that more men have died in wars of religion than any other type of war.


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## Mars (Jul 13, 2022)

Some folks would argue with God himself over their version of Christianity.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 13, 2022)

bullgator said:


> This thread reminds me that more men have died in wars of religion than any other type of war.


Yet we still discuss and read about past wars. I love to read about wars. It's quite interesting from a  historical perspective. Especially their causes which most definitely is lead by religion. 
World religions is also an interesting subject and why Jefferson had a Quran.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 13, 2022)

Browning Slayer said:


> Do you still attend Free Chapel?



Yes, we attend Free Chapel regularly, participate in one of their small groups, and regularly volunteer in local service stuff.  But we consider WFR to be our church "home" in the sense of tithing, prayer requests, and spiritual covering.


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## Danuwoa (Jul 13, 2022)

Off topic I guess but why do people feel the need to complicate things unnecessarily.  Church and Sunday school are now “corporate worship” and “small group” at a lot of churches.  How and why did this start?


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 13, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> How does it fit in with y'all's Messianic background?
> 
> I was reading that years ago that Church taught the gospel was for non-believers. In other words the lost were taught the gospel and congregation was taught the rest of the Old and New Testament Law so to speak. I probably ain't explaining this very well. Not judging, just trying to learn.



We still have a great fondness for the Messianic movement.  For the month of March, we served as the worship team for a local Messianic congregation for the four Shabbats that month while their regular worship team took a break to tend to some family needs.  We also celebrated Passover with them.  

Messianic congregations have many strengths that we appreciate, but I don't find them to be a great fit for my ministry evangelizing southern rednecks.  The biggest issue for me is their tolerance and sometimes propagation of the Mosiac dietary law (no pork, no cheeseburgers, no catfish, no shrimp, etc.)  The Messianic congregation we served at some years ago, including teaching at their Yeshiva, took great care in keeping dietary choices a matter of private conviction and conscience.  They knew we ate catfish, shrimp, and bacon and never made an issue of it.  Many other congregations end up with an inner circle that keeps kosher and an outer circle that does not. It is much harder for me to recommend these congregations with much enthusiasm to the typical southern redneck.

The "inner and outer" circles based on some denominational distinction is fairly common in many churches.  Speaking in tongues is usually the thing in Pentecostal churches and adherence to strict Calvinism is common in "Reformed" churches.  WFR is not without denominational distinctions, but we've been attending for two years now without our lack of personal adherence to some of them making us or our guests feel unwelcome.


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## NCHillbilly (Jul 13, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> In the late 60's-70's we had to go to Pentecostal Churches in my town to hear good Gospel music played on the guitar.


Interestingly enough, the one local snake-handling type church I visited once had electric guitars, tambourines, and were playing Bo-Diddly style music and dancing. It was pretty cool.


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## Browning Slayer (Jul 13, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Yes, we attend Free Chapel regularly, participate in one of their small groups, and regularly volunteer in local service stuff.  But we consider WFR to be our church "home" in the sense of tithing, prayer requests, and spiritual covering.


But within a minute of your video you say you were looking for a place that did not constantly ask you for "electronic giving" during that covid time. 

Yet, Free Chapel is the one that constantly asks for "electronic giving" and has how many sermons about tithing a year? Yet, you don't tithe to them and instead tithe to an online service. I don't get it..


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## Semi-Pro (Jul 13, 2022)

I thought you went to a cowboy church?


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 13, 2022)

Browning Slayer said:


> But within a minute of your video you say you were looking for a place that did not constantly ask you for "electronic giving" during that covid time.
> 
> Yet, Free Chapel is the one that constantly asks for "electronic giving" and has how many sermons about tithing a year? Yet, you don't tithe to them and instead tithe to an online service. I don't get it..



Many churches make requests for giving that are beyond my comfort level and out of proportion to the emphasis the topic receives in Scripture.  If that was an absolute show stopper for me, there wouldn't be many churches I could attend or recommend.  

In my video, my objection was not to requests for giving, but rather to cases where it was the only opportunity provided for two-way communication.  Perhaps I prefer not to reward what I regard as bad behavior (too many giving requests).  

Do you think one should have a preference to tithe and give to a local church rather than one they attend online?  Since God loves a cheerful giver, my leaning is toward believers giving to whichever ministries we feel most cheerful about.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 13, 2022)

Semi-Pro said:


> I thought you went to a cowboy church?



That church closed their doors about the time of COVID and no longer exists.  We liked them a lot and it was a sad transition for us, but a lot of these details are above our pay grade.  Many smaller churches did not survive the COVID closures.  It has been a tough time and many Jesus followers have had to adjust.  We're happy to have found WFR Church - it's a good fit for reaching out to rednecks, especially as the Lord has grown my video audiences to 1.6 million viewers last year, many of whom are beyond North Georgia.

A lot more people will drive an hour to go fishing with me than will drive an hour to come to church with me.  But I've been more effective inviting folks to join me in attendance at WFR than I ever was inviting people to church in person.  People with church related stress are much more likely to attend a welcoming church online.


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## Browning Slayer (Jul 13, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Many churches make requests for giving that are beyond my comfort level and out of proportion to the emphasis the topic receives in Scripture.  If that was an absolute show stopper for me, there wouldn't be many churches I could attend or recommend.
> 
> In my video, my objection was not to requests for giving, but rather to cases where it was the only opportunity provided for two-way communication.  Perhaps I prefer not to reward what I regard as bad behavior (too many giving requests).
> 
> Do you think one should have a preference to tithe and give to a local church rather than one they attend online?  Since God loves a cheerful giver, my leaning is toward believers giving to whichever ministries we feel most cheerful about.



Or maybe you don't want to Tithe to a church you spend so much of your time at because your pastor blows that money on a private jet after Sunday service to get to California and raise more funds. Franklin and his family and key staff members board a private plan and fly 2,300 miles west to Orange County, Calif., where a service takes place at 6 p.m every week. 

Do you not feel cheerful about the ministries at Free Chapel?


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 13, 2022)

Browning Slayer said:


> Or maybe you don't want to Tithe to a church you spend so much of your time at because your pastor blows that money on a private jet after Sunday service to get to California and raise more funds. Franklin and his family and key staff members board a private plan and fly 2,300 miles west to Orange County, Calif., where a service takes place at 6 p.m every week.
> 
> Do you not feel cheerful about the ministries at Free Chapel?



We spend more of our time at WFR (including in person and on-line) than at Free Chapel.  We attended and tithed to Free Chapel for several years while our children were in high school.  We deeply appreciated their youth group, worship, preaching, and teaching over those years.  We never found anything objectionable in our observations in how they used their resources.  

Our core conviction on tithing is that we prefer to tithe to the church we regard as our "home church" - the church whose leadership we are submitted to.  When our children were in high school, that was Free Chapel.  Now, it is WFR Church.  But many times in our lives we have found opportunities for instruction, service and fellowship in other Christian ministries.  Just because we don't tithe to those ministries does not mean we have negative regard for them.  We often have not tithed to other local congregations we regard highly.  

I like Free Chapel and I like Jentezen Franklin.  I have no idea how I might conduct my own life and ministry if I had congregations as large and dispersed as those he is shepherding, and I'm not going to judge him on how he goes about his shepherding task.  I am doing the work of an evangelist and reaching over 1 million people a year on a ministry budget of about $10k per year.  I'm sure one could find an indigent evangelist in Ethiopia who might be jealous of my fancy 16 ft Alumacraft with twin 20 hp motors, my GoPro, and my Honda Pilot.  But would he be any more right in his judgement of me than I would be if I judged Jentezen?  We gave tens of thousands of dollars to Free Chapel over the years, and I don't regret a penny of it.  I cannot say that about every ministry we have given to.


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## 4HAND (Jul 13, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> I was wondering about musical instruments more related to the Church of Christ than just one individual Church.


I'm glad you posted that. Maybe I wasn't clear.  I too meant the denomination, not just WFR Church.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 13, 2022)

4HAND said:


> I'm glad you posted that. Maybe I wasn't clear.  I too meant the denomination, not just WFR Church.



I see churches as individual entities with varying degrees of influence from their denominational affiliations - a lot like most people.  I have no idea what the official position of the denomination may be.  Since COVID, I have attended services at several other churches with Church of Christ affiliations, and each individual congregation has had instrumental music at most of their services.  At the same time, I've also enjoyed some excellent services with voice only music over that time.  "Thou shalt have instruments" is just as silly as "thou shalt not have instruments."

My view is that if an individual church is getting orders from the denominational headquarters to the level of detail of whether or not to have instrumental music, then the headquarters is micromanaging stuff better left to the local elders who Scripture tells us are to "direct the affairs of the church."  

My bigger concerns when attending or recommending specific bodies is how well they keep watch over the flock as "men who must give an account" and how well their teaching and preaching carry out the Great Commission.  WFR is so good on these counts, that I would not have been slowed much had they been "vocal only" in their services as long as they made no attempt to impose "no instruments" on my family or guests.  

Tonight is an annual summer worship event at WFR called "Worship in the Round."  It is instrumental.  Why not come check it out at 7:30 PM Eastern?
https://www.youtube.com/c/WfrchurchOrg


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## Ruger#3 (Jul 13, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Most online services I've attended recommend someone in the home serve the Lord's supper or Communion.  These include Free Chapel, World Outreach Church, WFR Church, and many others.  They may exist, but I've never heard an online service say, "You need to come in person to receive Communion."  WFR has even officiated and/or witnessed and broadcast a number of remote baptisms.
> 
> As priest in the home, why would not the husband and father be authorized to serve communion and baptize household members as necessary?  Do you deny the priesthood of believers?
> 
> Church is "where ever two or more are gathered" in the name of Jesus.  Is an electronic gathering less legitimate than one in person?  Is a household attending church together in their home, but joining a larger group electronically less legitimate?  I understand many are more comfortable meeting "in person" and "in person" meeting should continue to best serve their needs.  But why show favoritism toward meetings "in person" if it is mutually agreeable to all to have some  join electronically?



Thank you for your answer. Though I disagree with some of it I appreciate the insight to how it works. My question was not to judge but to understand. It would not work for me.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 13, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> Thank you for your answer. Though I disagree with some of it I appreciate the insight to how it works. My question was not to judge but to understand. It would not work for me.



Sure, and I appreciate that churches need to be open in person to continue to provide sacraments, confession, prayer, worship, teaching, preaching, and baptism for folks who prefer to receive them in person.

One of my friends served for years as an ordained full time pastor in a traditional church.  The Lord has transitioned him to more of a "tent making" ministry now where he earns his living from a job in town and has a "house church" meeting in his home that he shepherds.  

In the continuum from brick and mortar meetings in dedicated buildings to in-person meetings in homes (with ordained clergy) to in-person meetings in homes (with ordained clergy present electronically), it seems artificial to me to have a demarcation where one says, "communion is OK in these but not in those."  I hate to make ordination any kind of litmus test having seen how easy those are to get, and how seldom I have seen ordination taken away from men even when unrepentant about disqualifying sins.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 13, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> The elders there are well aware that I'm a bass guitarist, and that my wife and I have a Messianic Music YouTube channel featuring guitar and bass.



Of THAT, I have absolutely no doubt.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 13, 2022)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Of THAT, I have absolutely no doubt.



Church leadership keeps watch over the flock as men who must give an account.

How much confidence should a member of the flock have in his church leadership if they haven't bothered to find out what he's up by the time he's been attending for TWO YEARS?

Church leadership has expressed appreciation that I submit my ministry plans for their consideration and feedback and that I touch base regularly about how things are going.  They want to know.  They ask.  They're interested.  Maybe "submit to your leaders" means something different to you.  Should a man hide what he's doing from his church leadership?  Or should he ask for advice, prayer, direction, and guidance?

The COVID era has been more difficult for men acting as "lone rangers" than on men plugged into and in real fellowship with good churches.


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## furtaker (Jul 13, 2022)

4HAND said:


> Why are you judging me while accusing me of judging others?
> I have heard that Church of Christ does not have instruments.
> I love music. I'm a musician in my church.
> It was a simple question.
> ...


I went to high school with a guy who attended a Church of Christ and they didn't use instruments. I'm not sure if things have changed in recent years but they were all like that back then.


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## Nicodemus (Jul 13, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Church leadership keeps watch over the flock as men who must give an account.
> 
> How much confidence should a member of the flock have in his church leadership if they haven't bothered to find out what he's up by the time he's been attending for TWO YEARS?
> 
> ...





Explain this in better detail, if you will.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 13, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Interestingly enough, the one local snake-handling type church I visited once had electric guitars, tambourines, and were playing Bo-Diddly style music and dancing. It was pretty cool.



I like a little music at a snake-fry.  Just adds to the ambience.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 13, 2022)

Browning Slayer said:


> But within a minute of your video you say you were looking for a place that did not constantly ask you for "electronic giving" during that covid time.
> 
> Yet, Free Chapel is the one that constantly asks for "electronic giving" and has how many sermons about tithing a year? Yet, you don't tithe to them and instead tithe to an online service. I don't get it..



Online=more anonymity=less money donated in most cases.  If I don't have to look you in the eye, I ain't gonna feel as bad about giving you less.  This is based on the fact that in most churches, whether it's true or not, people see their tithes going to the pastor.  Most don't consider that it's going to God and they WILL have to look him in the eye and account for it.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jul 13, 2022)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I like a little music at a snake-fry.  Just adds to the ambience.



I don't know about you, but if I knew there were poisonous snakes loose in that building, I would be dancing... right out the door


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## Ruger#3 (Jul 13, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I don't know about you, but if I knew there were poisonous snakes loose in that building, I would be dancing... right out the door



“Reckon where do they want one……”


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## NCHillbilly (Jul 13, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> “Reckon where do they want one……”


You saved me some typing.


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## Nicodemus (Jul 13, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I don't know about you, but if I knew there were poisonous snakes loose in that building, I would be dancing... right out the door





Them thangs will bite.


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## NCHillbilly (Jul 13, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> Them thangs will bite.


Especially when you grab 'em in the middle and start waving them around in the air and hollerin' at them. That church I was referring to ain't there no more, for a very simple reason. Ain't no preacher left.


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## Nicodemus (Jul 13, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Especially when you grab 'em in the middle and start waving them around in the air and hollerin' at them. That church I was referring to ain't there no more, for a very simple reason. Ain't no preacher left.




One thing that stands out, they seem to prefer canebrakes and copperheads. Never seen them use one of these. With good reason.....


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## NCHillbilly (Jul 13, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> One thing that stands out, they seem to prefer canebrakes and copperheads. Never seen them use one of these. With good reason.....
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 1163399


We ain't got no diamondbacks up here. Just timbers and copperheads. Most of the snake-handling preachers die from timber bites. They are pretty laid back, but they have their limits.


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## Hillbilly stalker (Jul 13, 2022)

Canebrakes and copperheads back home. Knew one preacher who was in the paper nine times from gettin bit. There still a few around, one in Jolo Wv that I know of. Couple more in Wayne counity.


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## Spotlite (Jul 13, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Especially when you grab 'em in the middle and start waving them around in the air and hollerin' at them. That church I was referring to ain't there no more, for a very simple reason. Ain't no preacher left.



Snake bites that put them into extinction?????


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 14, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I don't know about you, but if I knew there were poisonous snakes loose in that building, I would be dancing... right out the door



We have a wild game supper at our church every year and the snake is always good.  It’s generally the first thing to run out.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 14, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> We ain't got no diamondbacks up here. Just timbers and copperheads. Most of the snake-handling preachers die from timber bites. They are pretty laid back, but they have their limits.



In my experience a big old diamond back or timber is a lot less temperamental.  They would rather just crawl away and find another place to nap.  Now a young one is like a teenage scrapper.  It don’t take much to rile them and once you do you got a fight on your hands


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## NCHillbilly (Jul 14, 2022)

SemperFiDawg said:


> In my experience a big old diamond back or timber is a lot less temperamental.  They would rather just crawl away and find another place to nap.  Now a young one is like a teenage scrapper.  It don’t take much to rile them and once you do you got a fight on your hands


The timbers around here are generally very calm, it's hard to even get most of them to coil and rattle. They just keep crawling off. Until you mess with them too much, then they can get right testy. The most aggressive one I've ever ran up on here was this black-phase I encountered while trout fishing a couple years ago that had opaque, milky eyes getting ready to shed. He was ready to rock and roll from the get-go.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jul 14, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I don't know about you, but if I knew there were poisonous snakes loose in that building, I would be dancing... right out the door



People are more apt to hurt themselves reacting to a snake than actually by the snake itself.  Snake handling as a show of faith is just dumb but I ain’t gonna run off a cliff, thru a wall or into traffic at the sight of a rattler and I ain’t gonna shoot the bottom out of my boat if a cotton mouth falls in it.


----------



## buckpasser (Jul 14, 2022)

SemperFiDawg said:


> So nobody asked for your input on how they should run the church after you had been attending for TWO WHOLE YEARS  and worse still, they failed to acknowledge and recognize WHAT YOU HAD BEEN DOING on your own in a manner you thought appropriate and befitting of your status.  Gotcha.  Nod. Nod. Wink. Wink.  Yeah that whole Matthew 6:5-6 (And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. Truly I tell you, they already have their full reward. But when you pray, gointo your inner room, shut your door, and pray to yourFather, who is unseen. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.)i is soooo OT. It's Matthew for Jimminy Crickets sake, first book of the NT.  May as well be OT it's so out of vogue.
> 
> I'll just be honest with you.  I can't figure out whether your problem with church hopping is that you can't find a church big enough to accommodate your ego or one small enough to tolerate it.  To come across on an internet forum as smug and hubristic as you do is no small task.  Your pride has led you to post patently evangelistic threads in the fishing forums angering the mods at your blatant disregard for the rules.  I guess the rules don't apply to a Super-Christian such as yourself.   You've posted videos in the spiritual forum promoting drugs and condemning tithing while attempting to use Scripture to defend both.  You've posted videos condemning traditional worship, condemning obesity in the church membership, videos on why it's appropriate to pray for the Georgia Bulldogs and Atlanta Braves and the videos on the evolutionary benefits of monogamy.  The ONLY underlying theme in EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. of your videos is Woodrow stroking Woodrow's ego.  Everyone with a lick of sense see's your videos for exactly what they are: exhaustive self-adulation covered by a thin veneer of horribly misguided theology.   How and why any half sane individual (believer or non-believer) would listen to you (a self-acclaimed teacher of church youth) is beyond me.  What you "preach" not only defies scripture, it defies moral conscience, but I highly doubt any of this has got through the I, I, I, ME,ME,ME, MY, MY, MY, MINE, MINE, MINE of your echo chamber, but dang if it didn't need to be said.



I sorta stumbled into this thread, and I don’t keep up with LDB, but I’d love links to some of the threads and videos you mentioned in this post purely for entertainment!  Haha


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jul 14, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I sorta stumbled into this thread, and I don’t keep up with LDB, but I’d love links to some of the threads and videos you mentioned in this post purely for entertainment!  Haha



Just click on his name then the number under “messages”.


----------



## Railroader (Jul 14, 2022)

I too, tripped and fell in here by accident...

I believe in God, and talk to him near daily.  Sometimes, He let's me know he heard me.  I see evidence of Him all the time, because I was taught HOW to see it, and appreciate it.

I do not need a church, preacher, or congregation mixed up in MY relationship with God. 

See y'all in Heaven! ?


----------



## Hooked On Quack (Jul 14, 2022)

Amen brother !!


----------



## tell sackett (Jul 14, 2022)

Railroader said:


> I too, tripped and fell in here by accident...
> 
> I believe in God, and talk to him near daily.  Sometimes, He let's me know he heard me.  I see evidence of Him all the time, because I was taught HOW to see it, and appreciate it.
> 
> ...


Can we talk?


----------



## Railroader (Jul 14, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> Can we talk?



With all respect...

Probably not the best idea, because I always frustrate those very few that I have talked with over the years.

My faith fits no mold, it is based on different teachings of men and women who held no title, but lots of power in their own right.  Some Bible, some Mountain Folk Medicine, some Native American, and some Asian Philosophy.

I don't explain it well, but what matters is that I know what it means to me, it is part of me, and it is real.

I feel no urge to try to make anyone see things my way, nor will I see things their way.


----------



## tell sackett (Jul 14, 2022)

Railroader said:


> With all respect...
> 
> Probably not the best idea, because I always frustrate those very few that I have talked with over the years.
> 
> ...


Think about this for me then. What about seeing things the way God sees them as He has revealed them to us in His Word? You don’t have to answer, but please think about it and if you would like to talk more about it feel free to pm me. 
Thanks


----------



## buckpasser (Jul 14, 2022)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Just click on his name then the number under “messages”.



Thanks so much…


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jul 14, 2022)

Railroader said:


> I too, tripped and fell in here by accident...
> 
> I believe in God, and talk to him near daily.  Sometimes, He let's me know he heard me.  I see evidence of Him all the time, because I was taught HOW to see it, and appreciate it.
> 
> ...



Well if you get there before me put on a pot of grits.


----------



## Railroader (Jul 14, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> Think about this for me then. What about seeing things the way God sees them as He has revealed them to us in His Word? You don’t have to answer, but please think about it and if you would like to talk more about it feel free to pm me.
> Thanks



Now here's a guy that has my Religious Respect. Doing what he feels needs doing with the best possible manners.

Well done, Sir.  You are a good example to us all.


----------



## Nicodemus (Jul 14, 2022)

Railroader said:


> Now here's a guy that has my Religious Respect. Doing what he feels needs doing with the best possible manners.
> 
> Well done, Sir.  You are a good example to us all.




William Tell is a good man.


----------



## Railroader (Jul 14, 2022)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Well if you get there before me put on a pot of grits.



And gravy...


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Jul 14, 2022)

Railroader said:


> And gravy...



Since we are putting in a pre-order, I want biscuits with the gravy.


----------



## Railroader (Jul 14, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Since we are putting in a pre-order, I want biscuits with the gravy.



Yessir!


----------



## 4HAND (Jul 14, 2022)

Bacon & eggs over easy.


----------



## Railroader (Jul 14, 2022)

4HAND said:


> Bacon & eggs over easy.



Well, somebody GON hafta come help me... ?


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jul 14, 2022)

Lol


----------



## Nicodemus (Jul 14, 2022)

I won`t hold my breath for an answer. 

Going once....


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jul 14, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Off topic I guess but why do people feel the need to complicate things unnecessarily.  Church and Sunday school are now “corporate worship” and “small group” at a lot of churches.  How and why did this start?



Business terms have made their way into Church terminology because a lot of churches are businesses first and Church's second.  Pretty much that simple.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Jul 14, 2022)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Business terms have made their way into Church terminology because a lot of churches are businesses first and Church's second.  Pretty much that simple.



I love the small group at our church.  Basically it is a pastor lead bible study on Wednesday night where we take each verse and break it down until we get done with the entire book.  We started in Revelation back in January.  We are on Chapter 12 right now, but we are on a kind of interlude for 8 weeks to look at 1 Cor, which is also the topic of Sunday services right now.


----------



## Ruger#3 (Jul 14, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I love the small group at our church.  Basically it is a pastor lead bible study on Wednesday night where we take each verse and break it down until we get done with the entire book.  We started in Revelation back in January.  We are on Chapter 12 right now, but we are on a kind of interlude for 8 weeks to look at 1 Cor, which is also the topic of Sunday services right now.



I like both, the study sessions are great. The pastor clarifying meaning of verse.

Corporate is modern term for a very old practice, the church coming together as one body.


----------



## Danuwoa (Jul 14, 2022)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Business terms have made their way into Church terminology because a lot of churches are businesses first and Church's second.  Pretty much that simple.


I agree.  I was wondering if those who use the terms would say so.  If they call church “corporate worship” that is a place I don’t want to be.


----------



## Ruger#3 (Jul 14, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I agree.  I was wondering if those who use the terms would say so.  If they call church “corporate worship” that is a place I don’t want to be.



I‘ve heard small group for Weds study sessions but never corporate.


----------



## Danuwoa (Jul 14, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> I‘ve heard small group for Weds study sessions but never corporate.


Sunday school and church are good enough for me.  But I’m a guy who has only had an iPhone for a little bit and think needing a gps to get around is weird.  I’m also the guy who was told on this board that I have a phobia of success because I don’t have a need for lots of “stuff”.


----------



## Ruger#3 (Jul 14, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Sunday school and church are good enough for me.  But I’m a guy who has only had an iPhone for a little bit and think needing a gps to get around is weird.  I’m also the guy who was told on this board that I have a phobia of success because I don’t have a need for lots of “stuff”.



My job has had me tethered to a phone for decades but I know the impact of that. I have folks tell me “going on vacation but I’ll check my email.” I tell them don’t, get unplugged and recharge. Simplify your life.


----------



## Danuwoa (Jul 14, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> My job has had me tethered to a phone for decades but I know the impact of that. I have folks tell me “going on vacation but I’ll check my email.” I tell them don’t, get unplugged and recharge. Simplify your life.


Definitely.  I couldn’t have a job that required constant emails and phone calls.  From people that I know who would know, there is no such thing as being off work in that sort of job anymore.  Because constant communication is possible people think they are entitled to communicate with you whenever they want.  Unless I know you real good or you’re family, don’t call or text me after nine o’clock.  If you get an answer you won’t like the one you get.


----------



## buckpasser (Jul 14, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Definitely.  I couldn’t have a job that required constant emails and phone calls.  From people that I know who would know, there is no such thing as being off work in that sort of job anymore.  Because constant communication is possible people think they are entitled to communicate with you whenever they want.  Unless I know you real good or you’re family, don’t call or text me after nine o’clock.  If you get an answer you won’t like the one you get.



You’re not wrong. It’s been a problem at my last 4 jobs. This one is the best because it’s usually after hours calls about deer or turkeys. I can live with that.


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 14, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> You’re not wrong. It’s been a problem at my last 4 jobs. This one is the best because it’s usually after hours calls about deer or turkeys. I can live with that.


My office is in my home. It took time but I learned how to “shut er down” and balance work / home life. Vacation - you may leave a voicemail, email gets you an out of office reply. Hunting / fishing locally I will handle a few messages but I’m not getting neck deep in anything until I’m back in the office.


----------



## furtaker (Jul 14, 2022)

I am a supervisor at work but I don't like being bothered with work drama after hours unless it's absolutely necessary. If it's not too serious and can wait until tomorrow then don't bother me. Some people have no respect for others' time.


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 14, 2022)

furtaker said:


> I am a supervisor at work but I don't like being bothered with work drama after hours unless it's absolutely necessary. If it's not too serious and can wait until tomorrow then don't bother me. Some people have no respect for others' time.





> Some people have no respect for others' time.



Ain’t that the truth!!!

My Dad always said - “they’ll drive you as long as you’ve got enough gas to run”


----------



## Danuwoa (Jul 14, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Ain’t that the truth!!!
> 
> My Dad always said - “they’ll drive you as long as you’ve got enough gas to run”


The way my old man said it was if they know they’ve got a good horse they’ll ride him until he drops.


----------



## Madman (Jul 15, 2022)

Railroader said:


> I do not need a church, preacher, or congregation mixed up in MY relationship with God.
> 
> See y'all in Heaven! ?


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jul 15, 2022)

Madman said:


>



What he says is true, but each of those he cites are great assets to one's relationship with God.  He only sees them as detriments and that IS sad.


----------



## Madman (Jul 15, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I agree.  I was wondering if those who use the terms would say so.  If they call church “corporate worship” that is a place I don’t want to be.


Corporate does not relate to corporation it relates to "United or combined into one body; collective."


----------



## Danuwoa (Jul 15, 2022)

Madman said:


> Corporate does not relate to corporation it relates to "United or combined into one body; collective."


. I know.
And it’s use in this context is pretentious at best.


----------



## Madman (Jul 15, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> . I know.
> And it’s use in this context is pretentious at best.


Do other churches not have corporate worship?  When people gather is corporate the wrong word to use?  I am not sure I understand.

Perhaps we should call it shared worship.


----------



## Madman (Jul 15, 2022)

SemperFiDawg said:


> What he says is true, but each of those he cites are great assets to one's relationship with God.  He only sees them as detriments and that IS sad.


You and I have discussed Church and my great love for it.  When I look at the history of Christianity it saddens me to see how so many feel about the Church.  I understand being "wounded" by people in the Church, I have been, but I will never let Judas keep me from Jesus.


----------



## Railroader (Jul 15, 2022)

SemperFiDawg said:


> What he says is true, but each of those he cites are great assets to one's relationship with God.  He only sees them as detriments and that IS sad.



You guys are 100% entitled to see my religious situation as "sad", that's what freedom is all about. 

There are also a whole lot of things in the "organized religion" world that are very sad, too.  I could name a bunch of things, but those of you who pay close attention to church already know better than I. 

So please guys, don't feel sad for me.  I do not need to be "saved" or shown "the error of my ways".  Me and God are friends, and my faith and beliefs are based on actual experience.  Some of it in fact, would be unbelievable to those who are relying on a lifetime of blind faith, and hoping to see something "real" one day. 

I wish you all to find what you seek, because no longer having questions is a great place to be.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jul 15, 2022)

Madman said:


> You and I have discussed Church and my great love for it.  When I look at the history of Christianity it saddens me to see how so many feel about the Church.  I understand being "wounded" by people in the Church, I have been, but I will never let Judas keep me from Jesus.


Great way to put it


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jul 15, 2022)

Railroader said:


> You guys are 100% entitled to see my religious situation as "sad", that's what freedom is all about.
> 
> There are also a whole lot of things in the "organized religion" world that are very sad, too.  I could name a bunch of things, but those of you who pay close attention to church already know better than I.
> 
> ...



It’s not condescension Brother.  I promise.  Just wish you had the same experiences MM and I had. That’s all.


----------



## Madman (Jul 15, 2022)

Railroader said:


> You guys are 100% entitled to see my religious situation as "sad", that's what freedom is all about.
> 
> There are also a whole lot of things in the "organized religion" world that are very sad, too.  I could name a bunch of things, but those of you who pay close attention to church already know better than I.
> 
> ...



RR,

That is not what was meant by my .  Being with the people of God should be a good experience, it should be enjoyable to be with those whom you share beliefs and values and worship experiences.

I am not sad about your "choice", I am sad that you have had poor experiences.

No offense was meant, i apologize.


----------



## Danuwoa (Jul 15, 2022)

Madman said:


> Do other churches not have corporate worship?  When people gather is corporate the wrong word to use?  I am not sure I understand.
> 
> Perhaps we should call it shared worship.


Or we could just call it church.  That worked just fine forever.


----------



## Madman (Jul 15, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Or we could just call it church.  That worked just fine forever.


Yes we could.

I will now have to differentiate between church, and Sunday School, and small groups, and men's group, and personal worship, and personal prayer and corporate  church prayer, and morning prayer, and evening prayer, and ................... 

  Just kiddin.


----------



## Danuwoa (Jul 15, 2022)

Madman said:


> Yes we could.
> 
> I will now have to differentiate between church, and Sunday School, and small groups, and men's group, and personal worship, and personal prayer and corporate  church prayer, and morning prayer, and evening prayer, and ...................
> 
> Just kiddin.


I don’t care what you do.  I won’t be darkening the door at one of those places that calls it that and puts the words to the hymns up on a projector screen.  Not for me.


----------



## Madman (Jul 15, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I don’t care what you do.  I won’t be darkening the door at one of those places that calls it that and puts the words to the hymns up on a projector screen.  Not for me.


Me neither


----------



## Danuwoa (Jul 15, 2022)

Madman said:


> RR,
> 
> That is not what was meant by my .  Being with the people of God should be a good experience, it should be enjoyable to be with those whom you share beliefs and values and worship experiences.
> 
> ...


It should be but his experience is far too common.  Church or whatever people call it now is a social organization way more often and to far too great of an extent than it should be.


----------



## Madman (Jul 15, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> It should be but his experience is far too common.  Church or whatever people call it now is a social organization way more often and to far too great of an extent than it should be.


And that is unbelievingly sad to me because I have been fortunate enough not to have experienced that very much.  There have been times and people that were hurtful but fortunately I belong to a Christian denomination that has a Father, and he is always willing to step in and stop the children from bickering.  His and the Bishop's word is the final word, so buck up and behave or be set out.


----------



## Danuwoa (Jul 15, 2022)

Madman said:


> And that is unbelievingly sad to me because I have been fortunate enough not to have experienced that very much.  There have been times and people that were hurtful but fortunately I belong to a Christian denomination that has a Father, and he is always willing to step in and stop the children from bickering.  His and the Bishop's word is the final word, so buck up and behave or be set out.


That’s dangerous too.  That kind of power corrupts.


----------



## Shane Dockery (Jul 15, 2022)

To the question on instruments during worship.  There was a split in the church of Christ in the late 1800's due to the view of traditional worship vs. use of instruments.  Those churches became what's known as the Christian Church denominations.  The church of Christ does not believe in use of instruments due to lack of historical references of their use, or biblical references to music.  Most any verse that speaks of singing praise, says just that, with voice.  EPH: 5:19; COL: 3:16; Psalms 98:6; REV: 5:11, etc.

Not here to argue, just stating a reason for the belief and why it is that way.


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 15, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> Explain this in better detail, if you will.



I apologize for the delay in reply.  It's unusual to give a link to the movie and be asked for the book.  It took a bit to find the video script, but here it is.






*Jesus 101- Why Churches Must NOT Close Again*

*Many churches sinned *when they closed in 2020.  Making disciples belongs to God and it is the work given to the church by God.  It does not belong to Caesar, so the church is sinning when they allow the government to direct the affairs of the church.  The main failure was not necessarily changes to the style and manner of meeting in response to a pandemic – the main failure was the failure to keep watch over the flock as men who must give an account.  My hope and prayer is that should wisdom suggest some changes to the type and manner of meeting in the coming days, pastors, elders, and shepherds will do a better job keeping watch over the flock and demonstrate heartfelt repentance from the failures of 2020.

*Effective discipleship* requires real two-way communication.  For the most part, putting worship and preaching online and expanding mechanisms for the flock to maintain giving failed to meet the needs of disciples for prayer, for counsel, and for shepherding through the increased trials and temptations of the first phase of COVID closures.  I personally experienced, as did a number of men I’ve fellowshipped with -  many refusals of admission to the online fellowship groups, refusals to return phone calls, refusals to arrange electronic meetings, failures to respond to emails and text messages.  And then, the church acts surprised – as if the sheep are at fault when giving and church attendance are down when churches finally open back up.  When you close off most opportunities for real two-way communication, you should not be surprised when the sheep vote with their wallets and their feet.  Maybe the church will get the message now.

*Traditional large Sunday* meetings are NOT essential to the church’s work of making disciples and keeping watch over the flock. But the church can (and must) stay open to meet the shepherding needs of the flock.  Ministers must be available, preferably in person, to meet needs – counseling needs, prayer needs, communion needs, baptism needs, as well as confession, teaching, training – whatever needs are present.  Electronic substitutes can certainly meet some of these needs, but some discipleship needs require higher levels of trust, privacy, and a personal touch that are not afforded by common internet communications.  And it is a shame that I need to say that church representatives should make sure every phone call, every email, every text, and every other attempted communication by a person in need MUST be answered with an open invitation for additional correspondence until the person’s shepherding needs are fully satisfied.

*For ministries that purport* to be doing the work of a church, preparing God’s people for works of service and doing the work of the Great Commission, God will call you to account for how you keep watch over the flock in 2022 and beyond.  Hear the word of the Lord, *God will call you to account for how you keep watch over the flock in 2022 and beyond.*

*Fear of a pandemic is not an excuse.* There were lots of diseases in Biblical history.  When did the Temple or the church ever suspend meeting together?  Fear of the government is not an excuse.  Gird up your loins.  Get yourselves ready.  Keep your doors open.  Your work is essential.  Your work is commanded by God.  Your work is important.  You are sending the wrong message if you close the doors of the church again.  *Figure it out. *

*One church remained open* by meeting outside and by expanding from one big Sunday meeting to three different meetings.  With only a fraction of people in attendance at each, they were able to maintain safe social distancing, meet discipleship needs, and keep God’s instruction not to give up meeting together.  Other churches canceled their big Sunday gatherings, but their doors remained open for confession, counseling, prayer, and their sacraments.  We need to figure out how to remove barriers to meeting shepherding needs.  Closing doors erects barriers.  Moving everything online erects barriers.  Being hard to reach erects barriers.  Churches that create or maintain these barriers will uprooted and torn down, destroyed and overthrown. Jesus will build and plant new ministries to replace them.

*Do not be terrified of* people or God will terrify you before them.  This is your opportunity to demonstrate your repentance from the failures of 2020.  Remember that those who seek to save their institutional lives will lose them. But those who are willing to lose their institutional lives for the sake of Jesus and his church will save them.  Fear God more than the pandemic.  Fear God more than the government.  Fear God more than what people might say about you.  You will give an account for how you keep watch over your people in 2022.


----------



## Madman (Jul 15, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> That’s dangerous too.  That kind of power corrupts.


WOW! Really?


----------



## Danuwoa (Jul 15, 2022)

Madman said:


> WOW! Really?


Yes.  That’s a controversial statement to you?  That’s how the reformation happened.  Where have you been?


----------



## Railroader (Jul 15, 2022)

To @SemperFiDawg and @Madman...

There has been no offense taken at all, we're all just talkin' and having a good time. It took me a lot of years to figure out what I believed, and didn't.  At 54, it's just in the past few years that I have put it all together.  Sorting out the wheat from the chaff, if you will...


Both of y'all are good with me.

It's good to have strong beliefs, and share a bit even if they are different. 

It's also good to be able to do it without starting a war... ?


----------



## Madman (Jul 15, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Yes.  That’s a controversial statement to you?  That’s how the reformation happened.  Where have you been?


Well the reformation is a different story and I would love to discuss it over tea and wings.

However when it comes to Church discipline I believe Holy Scripture leaves little doubt.

_Matthew 18:
15 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven._

He is speaking to the disciples here, notice the authority he gives them in vs 18.


----------



## Danuwoa (Jul 15, 2022)

Madman said:


> Well the reformation is a different story and I would love to discuss it over tea and wings.
> 
> However when it comes to Church discipline I believe Holy Scripture leaves little doubt.
> 
> ...


So people in positions of power in the church never abuse that power?  Jesus’ own story proves otherwise.


----------



## Danuwoa (Jul 15, 2022)

All those kids that have been molested by priests weren’t victims of people in positions of power in the church?  That would be news to them and their families I imagine.


----------



## Madman (Jul 15, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> So people in positions of power in the church never abuse that power?  Jesus’ own story proves otherwise.


You will have to take that up with Christ, he set it up that way.
_17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector._


----------



## Danuwoa (Jul 15, 2022)

Madman said:


> You will have to take that up with Christ, he set it up that way.
> _17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector._


I don’t have to take it up with him.  He gave me a brain to think with and I know he does t want me to put people on his place just because they are “important”.


----------



## Madman (Jul 15, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I don’t have to take it up with him.  He gave me a brain to think with and I know he does t want me to put people on his place just because they are “important”.


You didn't, 
I didn't 
he did.

But we have the reformation to thank for the confusion.  The offer is always on for sweet tea and wings, I'll buy.

Take care brother, I've beat this one bad enough, I'll give you the last word.


----------



## hopper (Jul 18, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> We still have a great fondness for the Messianic movement.  For the month of March, we served as the worship team for a local Messianic congregation for the four Shabbats that month while their regular worship team took a break to tend to some family needs.  We also celebrated Passover with them.
> 
> Messianic congregations have many strengths that we appreciate, but I don't find them to be a great fit for my ministry evangelizing southern rednecks.  The biggest issue for me is their tolerance and sometimes propagation of the Mosiac dietary law (no pork, no cheeseburgers, no catfish, no shrimp, etc.)  The Messianic congregation we served at some years ago, including teaching at their Yeshiva, took great care in keeping dietary choices a matter of private conviction and conscience.  They knew we ate catfish, shrimp, and bacon and never made an issue of it.  Many other congregations end up with an inner circle that keeps kosher and an outer circle that does not. It is much harder for me to recommend these congregations with much enthusiasm to the typical southern redneck.
> 
> The "inner and outer" circles based on some denominational distinction is fairly common in many churches.  Speaking in tongues is usually the thing in Pentecostal churches and adherence to strict Calvinism is common in "Reformed" churches.  WFR is not without denominational distinctions, but we've been attending for two years now without our lack of personal adherence to some of them making us or our guests feel unwelcome.


Why do you focus on "Southern Rednecks" so much?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 18, 2022)

hopper said:


> Why do you focus on "Southern Rednecks" so much?


I wonder if it's related to Duck Dynasty? Perhaps to appeal to a certain dynamic?


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## hopper (Jul 18, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> I wonder if it's related to Duck Dynasty? Perhaps to appeal to a certain dynamic?


Maybe, just this statement made me curious:
"but I don't find them to be a great fit for my ministry evangelizing southern rednecks"


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 18, 2022)

When we started spending time in N Ga several years ago, we gave some consideration to joining the church of a dear brother that focused on the more urban international community closer to Atlanta.  As we sought God's will in prayer, we felt the Holy Spirit was leading us instead to focus on "rednecks."  Since that time, this leading has been confirmed numerous times through church eldership and circumstance.  We have an intense period each year of seeking God's will, and so far, each year we have felt the Lord directing us to a continuing focus on rednecks. I've made several attempts to return to my more academic side, but the Lord has convincingly closed those doors each time.

Don't get me wrong, I am happy to oblige when the Lord puts people in my path who may not be rednecks - loving them, serving them, and seeing how I can tell them about Jesus and fulfill the great commission.  I don't intentionally avoid other people, but I realize my calling right now is to focus on rednecks, and it has been mostly rednecks responding to God's word through me.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 18, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> When we started spending time in N Ga several years ago, we gave some consideration to joining the church of a dear brother that focused on the more urban international community closer to Atlanta.  As we sought God's will in prayer, we felt the Holy Spirit was leading us instead to focus on "rednecks."  Since that time, this leading has been confirmed numerous times through church eldership and circumstance.  We have an intense period each year of seeking God's will, and so far, each year we have felt the Lord directing us to a continuing focus on rednecks. I've made several attempts to return to my more academic side, but the Lord has convincingly closed those doors each time.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I am happy to oblige when the Lord puts people in my path who may not be rednecks - loving them, serving them, and seeing how I can tell them about Jesus and fulfill the great commission.  I don't intentionally avoid other people, but I realize my calling right now is to focus on rednecks, and it has been mostly rednecks responding to God's word through me.


I don't see anything wrong with focusing on a certain group. Since one likes the outdoors, then use that opportunity preach, teach or witness. It could be a mission on the Appalachian Trail or witnessing to fishermen, etc.
I've noticed you don't really have to get too far out of Atlanta to be in "Redneck" country so to speak. Not using the word in a derogatory way either. It wouldn't be any different that trying to reach Hipsters or Hippies if that was your thing or even the homeless. Just whatever group one feels comfortably with or identifies with.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 18, 2022)

Wait, are these Preppy Rednecks or good old boy Rednecks?


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## hopper (Jul 18, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> When we started spending time in N Ga several years ago, we gave some consideration to joining the church of a dear brother that focused on the more urban international community closer to Atlanta.  As we sought God's will in prayer, we felt the Holy Spirit was leading us instead to focus on "rednecks."  Since that time, this leading has been confirmed numerous times through church eldership and circumstance.  We have an intense period each year of seeking God's will, and so far, each year we have felt the Lord directing us to a continuing focus on rednecks. I've made several attempts to return to my more academic side, but the Lord has convincingly closed those doors each time.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I am happy to oblige when the Lord puts people in my path who may not be rednecks - loving them, serving them, and seeing how I can tell them about Jesus and fulfill the great commission.  I don't intentionally avoid other people, but I realize my calling right now is to focus on rednecks, and it has been mostly rednecks responding to God's word through me.


So what do you believe is the reason that the Messianic congregations
doesn't fit for your ministries to "Southern Rednecks"?


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 18, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Wait, are these Preppy Rednecks or good old boy Rednecks?



I happy to serve and share with whatever rednecks respond to my videos or invitations to go fishing.  Most of the rednecks who come my way don't even have a boat or fishing gear as nice as my stuff, which is built around a 16 ft Alumacraft V16 and a 20 HP outboard.  So it's probably less than 20% affluent rednecks and >80% rednecks of more humble means.   



hopper said:


> So what do you believe is the reason that the Messianic congregations
> doesn't fit for your ministries to "Southern Rednecks"?



Several reasons.  Messianic congregations tend to be friendly to dietary regulations: no catfish, no shrimp, no crawfish, etc.  The notion that keeping Kosher is somehow more spiritual makes a lot of southern rednecks ... uncomfortable.  Messianic congregations tend to have one longer meeting on Saturdays than a 60-90 minute meeting on Sunday morning and maybe a quick 1 hr meeting or two during the week.  Quality of internet fellowship and broadcasts also lags behind.  Most of the dechurched and unchurched rednecks I've met prefer to lurk in a few online meetings before attending in person, and most are more likely to be available for meetings on Sunday mornings than Saturday mornings.  Thirdly, Messianic congregations tend to be smaller and it's harder to remain somewhat anonymous when attending.  Church hurt exvangelicals need a few weeks or months to see if they can grow to like and trust people in a new environment before being real comfortable with the questions established people in smaller congregations tend to ask new people on their first or second visit.


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## Browning Slayer (Jul 20, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> I happy to serve and share with whatever rednecks respond to my videos or invitations to go fishing.  Most of the rednecks who come my way don't even have a boat or fishing gear as nice as my stuff, which is built around a 16 ft Alumacraft V16 and a 20 HP outboard.  So it's probably less than 20% affluent rednecks and >80% rednecks of more humble means.
> 
> 
> 
> Several reasons.  Messianic congregations tend to be friendly to dietary regulations: no catfish, no shrimp, no crawfish, etc.  The notion that keeping Kosher is somehow more spiritual makes a lot of southern rednecks ... uncomfortable.  Messianic congregations tend to have one longer meeting on Saturdays than a 60-90 minute meeting on Sunday morning and maybe a quick 1 hr meeting or two during the week.  Quality of internet fellowship and broadcasts also lags behind.  Most of the dechurched and unchurched rednecks I've met prefer to lurk in a few online meetings before attending in person, and most are more likely to be available for meetings on Sunday mornings than Saturday mornings.  Thirdly, Messianic congregations tend to be smaller and it's harder to remain somewhat anonymous when attending.  Church hurt exvangelicals need a few weeks or months to see if they can grow to like and trust people in a new environment before being real comfortable with the questions established people in smaller congregations tend to ask new people on their first or second visit.


What does a normal day on the water look like on your boat with a "guest"? Can that person bring beer on your boat to drink? What if they smoke. Is that allowed? Does all conversation have to be based around religion?


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 20, 2022)

Browning Slayer said:


> What does a normal day on the water look like on your boat with a "guest"? Can that person bring beer on your boat to drink? What if they smoke. Is that allowed? Does all conversation have to be based around religion?



Good question.  Most days, we spend 4-6 hours on the water.  We say a short (1-2 minute) prayer before leaving the dock.  We usually talk a lot more about fishing than about faith.  I try and be sensitive to the guest's comfort level on various topics and there have been many trips where faith is not discussed more than 5-10 minutes the whole time.  When Jesus is one on one with people in Scripture, the essential interaction can be read in under 3 minutes most of the time.  I reckon that if I'm in touch with the Holy Spirit it shouldn't take me much longer to get my job done on the spiritual side.  The rest of the time I'm focused on providing the best fishing trip that I can.

My sponsor has a few safety rules.  One is that everyone on the boat wears a life jacket.  Another prohibits being under any influence of alcohol or drugs.  It's a small boat and standing up can get tricky with all the wakes on Lanier on the weekends.  It's purely a safety issue to prevent falls and accidents.  In my other hospitality efforts I have no objection to drinking alcohol in my home or my car or at events that I host, and on appropriate occasions, I sometimes offer guests wine.

Smoking is permitted as long as guests keep it a specific distance from the gasoline tanks.  Again, this is about safety rather than a moral objection to smoking.  Chewing tobacco and dip are not any problem.


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## Browning Slayer (Jul 20, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Good question.  Most days, we spend 4-6 hours on the water.  We say a short (1-2 minute) prayer before leaving the dock.  We usually talk a lot more about fishing than about faith.  I try and be sensitive to the guest's comfort level on various topics and there have been many trips where faith is not discussed more than 5-10 minutes the whole time.  When Jesus is one on one with people in Scripture, the essential interaction can be read in under 3 minutes most of the time.  I reckon that if I'm in touch with the Holy Spirit it shouldn't take me much longer to get my job done on the spiritual side.  The rest of the time I'm focused on providing the best fishing trip that I can.
> 
> My sponsor has a few safety rules.  One is that everyone on the boat wears a life jacket.  Another prohibits being under any influence of alcohol or drugs.  It's a small boat and standing up can get tricky with all the wakes on Lanier on the weekends.  It's purely a safety issue to prevent falls and accidents.  In my other hospitality efforts I have no objection to drinking alcohol in my home or my car or at events that I host, and on appropriate occasions, I sometimes offer guests wine.
> 
> Smoking is permitted as long as guests keep it a specific distance from the gasoline tanks.  Again, this is about safety rather than a moral objection to smoking.  Chewing tobacco and dip are not any problem.



All about "safety"?

What if it was against MY religion to believe in "faith" and not man made safety measures? Safety is used in so many terms now a days in man made stuff like "Covid Vaccines" Where is the line drawn? Can someone not have the same "safety" beliefs and still go fishing with you? Would you not take someone fishing if they did not agree to your "sponsors" terms? Do they sign a waiver before getting on your boat? Would you not take someone fishing to still preach the "gospel"? If they abided by your rules or your sponsors rules and still got hurt, would you and your sponsor be ok being liable for it? Would hospital bills be paid by your sponsors insurance policy?


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## NE GA Pappy (Jul 20, 2022)

Israel said:


> I suppose with enough faith you could walk the middle of the lake and troll at the same time.



i do believe he could.  He isn't having any issue trolling right now, and he isn't anywhere near the boat or the lake


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 21, 2022)

Browning Slayer said:


> All about "safety"?
> 
> What if it was against MY religion to believe in "faith" and not man made safety measures? Safety is used in so many terms now a days in man made stuff like "Covid Vaccines" Where is the line drawn? Can someone not have the same "safety" beliefs and still go fishing with you? Would you not take someone fishing if they did not agree to your "sponsors" terms? Do they sign a waiver before getting on your boat? Would you not take someone fishing to still preach the "gospel"? If they abided by your rules or your sponsors rules and still got hurt, would you and your sponsor be ok being liable for it? Would hospital bills be paid by your sponsors insurance policy?



My boat - my rules. I also require guests in my car to wear seatbelts and guests in my home to refrain from illegal drugs.  People who don't like it can find another ride.  I've never had a single guest (out of hundreds) complain about the safety rules.  

Sure, people with different safety beliefs can fish with me, but it would need to be in a different boat or from the bank.  I fished with a group of guys throwing back a bunch of beers earlier this year.


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## Browning Slayer (Jul 21, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> I fished with a group of guys throwing back a bunch of beers earlier this year.


Missed that video. Can you repost it and I’ll watch it. Thanks!


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## NCHillbilly (Jul 21, 2022)

I am a member of the Owl Creek Gap Church of Universal Harmony.


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## NCHillbilly (Jul 21, 2022)

Israel said:


> Is that Georgia...or Alabama? Owl Creek? Thanks.
> 
> Brought to mind "An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge"


It was founded in Hanging Dog, NC (near Murphy,) by an itinerant phrenologist, fly fisherman, and involuntary baptizer of the masses named Arby Mulligan. 

And you should be thinking of Harry Middleton, not Ambrose Bierce.


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## gordon 2 (Jul 21, 2022)

Church hurt exvangelicals  <<<< Always excited to learn new things or new ways of saying common or obvious things.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 22, 2022)

Browning Slayer said:


> Missed that video. Can you repost it and I’ll watch it. Thanks!



I'm not sure I can post a direct link without running afoul of the rules from the admins for the safe and orderly functioning of the group.  Try a google search for "Salty 101- Trolling Kings on the Legacy in Gulf Shores Alabama".


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## j_seph (Jul 22, 2022)

I am not big fan on sermons that require hand written notes, or sermons that require man to sit down for days or weeks at a time to write them before being "teached" not preached. His word states, paraphrasing here that we should not worry about what we will say or do but in the time needed it will be given to us.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 22, 2022)

j_seph said:


> I am not big fan on sermons that require hand written notes, or sermons that require man to sit down for days or weeks at a time to write them before being "teached" not preached. His word states, paraphrasing here that we should not worry about what we will say or do but in the time needed it will be given to us.



Please quote the verse you have in mind exactly.  Does Jesus have every believer in view here, or just the specific believers he is speaking to at the time?

And if Jesus has every believer in view, does he apply his instruction to every teaching and preaching situation or just specific circumstances?


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 24, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> I'm not sure I can post a direct link without running afoul of the rules from the admins for the safe and orderly functioning of the group..



Thou shall not be passive-aggresive.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 24, 2022)

Israel said:


> aha! I'mma guess that's your wife in the orange top that lost one fish to the mate's snatching of it...and then (I assume) after catching what appears a nice Spanish Mackerel, says "thank you Lord!"...but no less...also told that mate it was "alright" in regards to the fish lost.



Yes, that's my wife.  The mate was awesome and often made instant judgement calls whether to gaff the fish or snatch it in.  A couple were lost at the last second like that, but it was a pleasure to watch him work and very exciting.  The mates on that boat were the most skillful and attentive I've ever seen.  I learned a lot on that trip that I hope to use as the Lord grows the salt water side of my fishing and video ministry efforts.  My wife was a great testimony to all on that trip - putting herself last in line to reel in fish in addition to such gentle and prayerful encouragements.  We got to know the mates a little better while they were cleaning the fish since all the other guests had to go and departed prior to that.


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## j_seph (Jul 25, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Please quote the verse you have in mind exactly.  Does Jesus have every believer in view here, or just the specific believers he is speaking to at the time?
> 
> And if Jesus has every believer in view, does he apply his instruction to every teaching and preaching situation or just specific circumstances?



This was told to the 12 disciples (are we or are we not to be disciples) You can take it for what it is worth. I can sit down and start typing out a sermon as some might call it. Choosing words here and there, using a thesaurus and reference words from here to yonder and tickle someones ears to make them feel good for the moment. You take at the very moment that which God gives you to say or do which would be in his will then you can see someones life changed for an eternity, not just that moment.

Matthew 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
Exodus 4:12 - Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say.

Mark 13:11-13 - But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Luke 12:11 - And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:

Jeremiah 1:7 - But the LORD said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak.

Jeremiah 1:9 - Then the LORD put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth.

Matthew 6:34 - Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.


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## gopray12 (Aug 23, 2022)

I would be wary on the WFR church and Jentenzen Franklin.  You have to spend some time, but if you watch research completed by Servus Christi you will see that both the Robertsons and Jentenzen Franklin surround themselves with many heretics.  It is very concerning that they never call these heretics out, but it's tough when you are constantly on stage at the same conferences with them.  On the surface it looks like a money thing.  Be careful brother.  Romans 16:17-18.  We should mark and avoid


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## kmckinnie (Aug 24, 2022)

gopray12 said:


> I would be wary on the WFR church and Jentenzen Franklin.  You have to spend some time, but if you watch research completed by Servus Christi you will see that both the Robertsons and Jentenzen Franklin surround themselves with many heretics.  It is very concerning that they never call these heretics out, but it's tough when you are constantly on stage at the same conferences with them.  On the surface it looks like a money thing.  Be careful brother.  Romans 16:17-18.  We should mark and avoid


Thankyou for the info !


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## gopray12 (Aug 24, 2022)

kmckinnie said:


> Thankyou for the info !


It's tough to watch Servus Christi videos.  He has identified many men I once respected and enjoyed listening to, but the evidence is overwhelming and can be validated.  I have resorted to just listening to Tozer.  Everyone that is on the conference circuit has been corrupted.  They all travel in their own groups and like to call out speakers from other groups, but never say anything about the heresy within their own circle.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Aug 25, 2022)

I am wary of doing much with "guilt by association."  Jesus ate with tax collectors and sinners and those who tried to impute him with their guilt by association deserved their rebukes.

I am also wary of concluding that one party has not spoken plainly in private about another party's doctrinal errors.  I know some people in the inner circles - very frank conversations happen in private that are not public knowledge.  

Remember Jesus told us to judge a tree by their fruit - he never said to judge a tree by the fruit of others they hang around with.  I've seen hundreds of Jentezen's sermons and hundreds of teaching and preaching videos from the Robertson men.  I don't agree with every doctrinal position they hold, but I've seen nothing to draw a conclusion of heresy or serious character flaws.  

Further, I've searched the Servus Christi YouTube channel for a number of terms and found nothing about Jentezen Franklin, Free Chapel, the Robertsons, or WFR Church.  I was curious if they followed the Matthew 18 procedure of going to the brother in private "just between the two of you" and then taking a second witness before making more broad statements.  Maybe those claiming this channel has pointed out errors in these ministries can link claims more directly.


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## gopray12 (Aug 25, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> I am wary of doing much with "guilt by association."  Jesus ate with tax collectors and sinners and those who tried to impute him with their guilt by association deserved their rebukes.
> 
> I am also wary of concluding that one party has not spoken plainly in private about another party's doctrinal errors.  I know some people in the inner circles - very frank conversations happen in private that are not public knowledge.
> 
> ...



First, Jentezen Franklin is in partnership with both TBN and Hillsong.  If that does not concern you as a true follower of Christ I don't know what will.  He helps both raise money by being on their broadcasts.  You can see just one year ago Jentezen was on TBN Praise with Matt and Laurie Crouch.  In that specific episode he helped raise over $29,000.  He is in ministerial fellowship with both.  Were not talking about Jesus eating with tax collectors and sinners.  I never saw in scripture where Jesus was condoning what the tax collectors and sinners were doing.  By Jentezen being quiet about what both Hillsong and TBN support, he is just as guilty.    

Second, I said you would have to spend time.  His videos are hours for a reason.  You can't just look at the titles for a specific topic.  I encourage you to watch Servus Christi video on Greg Laurie from December 13, 2021. The Robertson part starts at 2:50.  Why Phil has had fellowship and continues to have fellowship with Greg Laurie blows my mind.   I too loved the unashamed podcast, but have since been disappointed in Phil, Willie, and Sadie.  Who they partner with on these "worship" conferences is extremely concerning.  They are in worship at these conferences with leaders who condone universalism, some deny the trinity, some say it's grace + works that saves you.  How can you be in worship with someone that is preaching the opposite.  It is two different gospels.


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## Browning Slayer (Aug 25, 2022)

Can you walk with God and shake hands with the devil at the same time? At least Bill Clinton is not divorced. There's that.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Aug 25, 2022)

gopray12 said:


> First, Jentezen Franklin is in partnership with both TBN and Hillsong.  If that does not concern you as a true follower of Christ I don't know what will.  He helps both raise money by being on their broadcasts.



Does Servus Christi not help YouTube raise money by being on their service?  Did Jesus not help the temple raise money by speaking there?  He even approved of the widow's two mites, even though he rebuked the temple leadership sternly.  

Why assume there has been no rebuke or expression of concern, just because you have no public notice of it?  



gopray12 said:


> Second, I said you would have to spend time.  His videos are hours for a reason.  You can't just look at the titles for a specific topic.  I encourage you to watch Servus Christi video on Greg Laurie from December 13, 2021. The Robertson part starts at 2:50.  Why Phil has had fellowship and continues to have fellowship with Greg Laurie blows my mind.   I too loved the unashamed podcast, but have since been disappointed in Phil, Willie, and Sadie.  Who they partner with on these "worship" conferences is extremely concerning.  They are in worship at these conferences with leaders who condone universalism, some deny the trinity, some say it's grace + works that saves you.  How can you be in worship with someone that is preaching the opposite.  It is two different gospels.



Thanks for the more specific reference. This is just a more specific example of guilt by association. I saw that episode of Unashamed when it originally aired and I was uncomfortable with it. The critic in the "Apostasy Report" quoted a lot of Scriptures of God/Jesus being angry with sins - behavioral actions. But then he applies them as if they were intended for doctrinal disagreements.

Since I've heard hundreds of hours of Phil Robertson's teachings, I know he does not accept or approve of many Catholic doctrines. However, he is unwilling to reject the testimony of people as followers of Jesus based simply on their denominational affiliation and related doctrinal disagreements. The comments on being rich were also taken out of context and when taken as a whole, I've seen nothing in Phil's teaching to put him in the "prosperity gospel" camp. He was quoting his wife to make a joke. Are we now going to take men's quotes from their wives to infer their own teaching and doctrinal opinions?

Phil applies Jesus' teaching on "Everyone who is not against us is for us" a bit differently than I do. I can disagree with him on that point without calling him an apostate or considering his application of his view to the pope or hanging out with teachers I disagree with more strongly as "apostasy."

Since apostasy is a sin, I wonder if the critic in the "Apostasy Report" has a practice of always taking the matter to the individual in private first, as Jesus directs in Matthew 18, and then bringing along a brother, before taking the matter to the broader church. "Calling out" sin in specific individuals in public might get a lot of YouTube views, but ignoring Matthew 18 IS a sin.


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## gopray12 (Aug 25, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Does Servus Christi not help YouTube raise money by being on their service?  Did Jesus not help the temple raise money by speaking there?  He even approved of the widow's two mites, even though he rebuked the temple leadership sternly.
> 
> Why assume there has been no rebuke or expression of concern, just because you have no public notice of it?
> 
> ...



Servus Christi channel is not monetized.  Also, have you ever seen the lineup on TBN?  As a brother in Christ and you had the chance to be on with Matt and Laurie why would you not ask them about some of their associations?  Maybe he did in private, but he is still on the show.  We know from Justin Peters ministry that he told Ray Comfort that he should be wiser about his decision to be on TBN.  Ray Comfort said he would be more careful, then he is back on TBN a few months later.


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## gordon 2 (Aug 25, 2022)

So let me get this understood, hopefully. ????Your new Church is a Church of Christ assembly, but your Fishing Lake Lanier ministry is sanctioned by the Baptist Church because they approve of you being a minister in this capacity? Do I have this right? Your Baptist when fishing with prospects ( practicing disciples) but worship with CoC folk now.???


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Aug 25, 2022)

gordon 2 said:


> So let me get this understood, hopefully. ????Your new Church is a Church of Christ assembly, but your Fishing Lake Lanier ministry is sanctioned by the Baptist Church because they approve of you being a minister in this capacity? Do I have this right? Your Baptist when fishing with prospects ( practicing disciples) but worship with CoC folk now.???



No, the Southern Baptist church that I served as worship pastor when I started the fishing ministry does not exist any more.  This was in 2019.  At that time, the pastors and elders there were unanimous in their support for starting the fishing ministry.  Between late 2019 and early 2020, the Baptist church closed (permanently) and COVID hit, prompting many church closures (many temporary, some permanent).  As fishing season approached, I prayed about what to do.  Through counsel and prayer, my advisors and I were unanimous to continue the fishing ministry (Rednecks for Jesus) as a ministry independent of a church (they were all closed in April and May 2020).  The fishing ministry was only sanctioned by he Southern Baptist church from Summer 2019 until that church dissolved.  

Since my wife and I joined WFR Church, Rednecks for Jesus continues as an independent ministry under an independent board.  But we submitted our 2022 ministry plan to the WFR leadership, and we submit monthly ministry reports and prayer requests both to the WFR leadership and the broader body.  Feedback from  WFR leadership relating to the fishing and video ministries has been uniformly positive.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Aug 25, 2022)

gopray12 said:


> Servus Christi channel is not monetized.



My YouTube channel is not monetized either.  That just means I'm not making any money.  YouTube makes money by showing ads when people watch unmonetized channels.  Just like Facebook and GON also make money from ads based on unmonetized content.  I can be on YouTube and Facebook without sharing in the sin of the operators even if they are making some ad revenue from my content.

I don't see it as a Christian duty to police the associations of other Christians based on doctrinal disagreements.   If hanging out with Catholics is a sin, I'd have to stone myself first for all the pro-life stuff I've done.  Yes, I cringe a bit when someone a few steps away is holding a poster of the Virgin Mary.  But I'm there for Jesus and for the unborn, I'm not approving of the Mary nonsense.  I reckon that if Martin Luther could be saved by grace through faith years before he left the Catholic Church, then the same thing is possible for Catholics today.  

The temple operation was evil in Jesus' day.  Yet, Jesus praised rather than rebuked the widow for her financial support of the temple.  Jesus did not impute to the widow the evil of the temple operators based on her presence and financial support.  Jesus praised her generosity.


----------



## gopray12 (Aug 25, 2022)

gordon 2 said:


> So let me get this understood, hopefully. ????Your new Church is a Church of Christ assembly, but your Fishing Lake Lanier ministry is sanctioned by the Baptist Church because they approve of you being a minister in this capacity? Do I have this right? Your Baptist when fishing with prospects ( practicing disciples) but worship with CoC folk now.???



Most hard core COC folk would tell you that WFR is not a COC.  In fact the Robertsons have said as much in their podcast.  I cant remember which, but they said they were trying to distance themselves from the COC title.  Most people are confused as to what the COC is anyways.  They are just basically house churches with a group of elders. No national body dictates how they should worship.  I wouldn't say COC is perfect, but each independent church tries to model as the first century Church looked.


----------



## gopray12 (Aug 25, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> I don't see it as a Christian duty to police the associations of other Christians based on doctrinal disagreements.   If hanging out with Catholics is a sin, I'd have to stone myself first for all the pro-life stuff I've done.  Yes, I cringe a bit when someone a few steps away is holding a poster of the Virgin Mary.  But I'm there for Jesus and for the unborn, I'm not approving of the Mary nonsense.
> 
> The temple operation was evil in Jesus' day.  Yet, Jesus praised rather than rebuked the widow for her financial support of the temple.  Jesus did not impute to the widow the evil of the temple operators based on her presence and financial support.  Jesus praised her generosity.



These people are not just "hanging out".  I don't doubt the genuineness of the Robertsons or Jentezen faith, but they are fellowshipping and partnering with false teachers.  When they are on stage sharing in speaking fees with others that are preaching false gospels (prosperity gospel, universalism, etc.) you are in partnership with false teachers.  If you are ok with that then you should just rip 2 John out of your Bible.  I'm pretty sure that 2 John is clear that we should not associate with anyone who does not bring the doctrine of Christ.


----------



## BeerThirty (Aug 25, 2022)

Am I a bad Christian if I still associate with old friends who are not Christian? These are friends who drink too much, curse and don't take care of their bodies. They've done immorale things in their past. But they stilll love you and treat you with respect. They would give you the shirt off their back, stop for you on the side of the road or invite you to their home if you were hungry. 

You seem to be the kind that points out every imperfection about Christians. Searching for technicalities. Do you research literally every person you associate with, do full background checks on them (including their friends and friends of their friends...), ask them where they spend their money, hold them responsible for their past, etc..??? You are picking a fight part of the reason why Christianity is so divided.


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## gopray12 (Aug 25, 2022)

BeerThirty said:


> Am I a bad Christian if I still associate with old friends who are not Christian? These are friends who drink too much, curse and don't take care of their bodies. They've done immorale things in their past. But they stilll love you and treat you with respect. They would give you the shirt off their back, stop for you on the side of the road or invite you to their home if you were hungry.
> 
> You seem to be the kind that points out every imperfection about Christians. Searching for technicalities. Do you research literally every person you associate with, do full background checks on them (including their friends and friends of their friends...), ask them where they spend their money, hold them responsible for their past, etc..??? You are picking a fight part of the reason why Christianity is so divided.


That’s not what I’m saying and not what 2 John is saying. It’s partnering with those who preach false gospels. I never said not to associate with unbelievers or sinners. I’m talking about men who are supposedly leaders in the faith


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## kmckinnie (Aug 25, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> I am wary of doing much with "guilt by association."  Jesus ate with tax collectors and sinners and those who tried to impute him with their guilt by association deserved their rebukes.
> 
> I am also wary of concluding that one party has not spoken plainly in private about another party's doctrinal errors.  I know some people in the inner circles - very frank conversations happen in private that are not public knowledge.
> 
> ...


Thankyou for the info !


----------



## BeerThirty (Aug 25, 2022)

gopray12 said:


> That’s not what I’m saying and not what 2 John is saying. It’s partnering with those who preach false gospels. I never said not to associate with unbelievers or sinners. I’m talking about men who are supposedly leaders in the faith



Why are you discrediting Christian leaders who are still attempting to bring people to God, even if a marginal amount of their messaging is inaccurate or misunderstood? Have you considered that leaders are human too and make mistakes? I've never understood people with this all-or-none point of view. Like, their intentions mean well and 99% of what they say is for the glory of God, but yet you're going to stand their in all your perfection and crucify them for the 1% imperfection that they have.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 25, 2022)

I was thinking false teachers might be something more than a few disagreements on a few things. Would a Trinity or Oneness teacher be considered a false teacher? What about a Free Will or a Election  teacher?
Just seems like it ain't really false in the sense that they are teaching the Gospel.


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## gopray12 (Aug 25, 2022)

BeerThirty said:


> Why are you discrediting Christian leaders who are still attempting to bring people to God, even if a marginal amount of their messaging is inaccurate or misunderstood? Have you considered that leaders are human too and make mistakes? I've never understood people with this all-or-none point of view. Like, their intentions mean well and 99% of what they say is for the glory of God, but yet you're going to stand their in all your perfection and crucify them for the 1% imperfection that they have.


First, it was James the brother of Jesus who made it clear in his letter that teachers of the word would be judged more strictly.    Jesus, Paul, John warn us many times in the New Testament that there will be those that will bring a false gospel.  To be clear we are not talking about whether a leaders opinion on if the church should have instruments or the specifics of the order of worship, or if someone should drink/smoke.  These are all secondary issues not related to the Gospel or our salvation.  I'm talking about a false gospel like the prosperity gospel that says "just as long as you believe in God hard enough and give generously, God will make you wealthy"  that is a gospel that contradicts what we see in the New Testament.  Now if you don't believe that mormon, prosperity, jehovah witness, univeralism, are not false gospels then I see your point.  All of those are correct on about 99% of what they believe.  It's that 1% on who Jesus was which is kind of critical to the whole message of the Gospel.


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## gopray12 (Aug 25, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> I was thinking false teachers might be something more than a few disagreements on a few things. Would a Trinity or Oneness teacher be considered a false teacher? What about a Free Will or a Election  teacher?
> Just seems like it ain't really false in the sense that they are teaching the Gospel.


Depends on your definition of the Gospel.  I heard an interesting message from Paul Washer in which he asked a youth group of believers, tell me what the Gospel is.  No one could give him an answer or they gave him a Sunday school bible class answer.  America has watered down and manipulated the Gospel in the last 50 years.  No one knows what it is anymore.


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## brutally honest (Aug 25, 2022)

John MacArthur is not a duck fan.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Aug 25, 2022)

2 John

1 The elder,
To the lady chosen by God and to her children, whom I love in the truth—and not I only, but also all who know the truth— 2 because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:
3 Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Father’s Son, will be with us in truth and love.
4 It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us. 5 And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. 6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.
7 I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8 Watch out that you do not lose what we have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. 9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. 11 Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work.
12 I have much to write to you, but I do not want to use paper and ink. Instead, I hope to visit you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete.
13 The children of your sister, who is chosen by God, send their greetings.


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## SemperFiDawg (Aug 26, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> John MacArthur is not a duck fan.



I don't agree with everything John Mac says, but when he speaks, I LISTEN.  IMHO he is as doctrinally sound as anyone out there.


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## SemperFiDawg (Aug 26, 2022)

BeerThirty said:


> Am I a bad Christian if I still associate with old friends who are not Christian? These are friends who drink too much, curse and don't take care of their bodies. They've done immorale things in their past. But they stilll love you and treat you with respect. They would give you the shirt off their back, stop for you on the side of the road or invite you to their home if you were hungry.



I understand exactly what you are saying, and you are correct, BUT there's a distinction that needs to be made.  Pastors/Preachers are held to a higher standard and not only should they be, but as it's been pointed out, it's supported in scripture.  Christ never placed himself above sinners, but he didn't turn a blind eye to those teaching false doctrines.  In fact, his most scornful rebukes were to teachers and clergy who led the masses astray for personal gain: be it public recognition, status, and/or wealth.  Indeed, there's nothing new under the sun.

I don't blindly follow any man or ministry.  They are men, just like me, and just as capable of messing up.  When you add money and fame to the equation, that risk increases exponentially.  I've found out that if I just follow Christ, there's no danger of him failing to meet my expectations.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Aug 26, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> John MacArthur is not a duck fan.



MacArthur is a strict cessationist, teaching that the spiritual gifts have all ceased - thus those who experience things like speaking in tongues, the gift of prophecy, and miraculous healings are deceived and deceiving others.  What does Scripture say?

Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. - 1 Corinthians 14:39

Do not quench the Spirit.  Do not treat prophecies with contempt but test them all; hold on to what is good,  reject every kind of evil. - 1 Thessalonians 5:19-22


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## gopray12 (Aug 26, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> MacArthur is a strict cessationist, teaching that the spiritual gifts have all ceased - thus those who experience things like speaking in tongues, the gift of prophecy, and miraculous healings are deceived and deceiving others.  What does Scripture say?
> 
> Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. - 1 Corinthians 14:39
> 
> Do not quench the Spirit.  Do not treat prophecies with contempt but test them all; hold on to what is good,  reject every kind of evil. - 1 Thessalonians 5:19-22



You are correct, no one can defend cessationism scripturally.  But everything we hear and see must be tested.  In todays "experience" based worship I can understand why there are cessationists, because people like Heidi Baker, Dr. Michael Brown and Benny Hinn have made a mockery of the Holy Spirit.  When you have someone like Benny Hinn running around waving his jacket and knocking people over or Heide Baker slaying people on the head so that they role around like they have ants in their pants, I can't blame people believing in cessationism.  We see nothing like this in scripture.


----------



## brutally honest (Aug 26, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> MacArthur is a strict cessationist …



As am I and as was WFR.  Maybe they’ve softened their position over the years, but I’d be shocked.  All churches of Christ are cessationist.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Aug 26, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> As am I and as was WFR.  Maybe they’ve softened their position over the years, but I’d be shocked.  All churches of Christ are cessationist.



The Robertson men give examples of some prophecies in their family, including an aunt who prophesied that Jase and Missy would marry before either one were teens.

In preaching and teaching on spiritual gifts from the pulpit, a range of views is expressed, but in over 300 sermons and teaching lessons, none of them have been strict cessationism.  At a Wed night service a couple months ago, the speaker (who was a guest then, but is now on staff) gave testimony of how Muslims coming to Jesus in Athens have had "dreams and visions" of Jesus in fulfillment of Acts 2.  They also share regular testimonies of healing in answer to prayer.

See:





 Obviously, if WFR was ever really strict cessationist, they have repented of the errant view in favor of what the Bible really says.  My wife and I have a close look at statements of faith and other detailed beliefs a church holds, and we don't usually join or invite people to churches that espouse strict cessationism.  

Some years ago, I accepted a position as academic director of a Christian high school in Hall County.  The pastor and Head of School knew my wife and I were Pentecostal in our background, and they even asked us not to speak in tongues when leading worship.  But when the paperwork came through for the job, the fine print included a requirement for all faculty to agree to strict cessationism.   I spent a few weeks trying to work things out, but in the end I resigned before the first day of school.  Even if I could stomach it personally, hiring cessationist teachers in a county so strongly influenced by Free Chapel would be impossible for what the school paid.  The funny thing is the school recently accepted a $50,000 gift from Free Chapel.


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## brutally honest (Aug 26, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Obviously, if WFR was ever really strict cessationist, they have repented of the errant view in favor of what the Bible really says.



The Bible really says they spoke in real languages that they had never studied, not the gibberish you see today.


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## NE GA Pappy (Aug 26, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> The Bible really says they spoke in real languages that they had never studied, not the gibberish you see today.



Paul talks about a language not even the angels can understand


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## brutally honest (Aug 26, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> The Robertson men give examples of some prophecies in their family, including an aunt who prophesied that Jase and Missy would marry before either one were teens.
> 
> In preaching and teaching on spiritual gifts from the pulpit, a range of views is expressed, but in over 300 sermons and teaching lessons, none of them have been strict cessationism.  At a Wed night service a couple months ago, the speaker (who was a guest then, but is now on staff) gave testimony of how Muslims coming to Jesus in Athens have had "dreams and visions" of Jesus in fulfillment of Acts 2.  They also share regular testimonies of healing in answer to prayer.



This is all very vague.  Have you ever asked them directly what they believe?

At one time, WFR was church of Christ “royalty” and would no more speak in tongues than they would baptize a baby.  It would be like the Vatican building a statue of Martin Luther in front of St. Peter’s.


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## brutally honest (Aug 26, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Paul talks about a language not even the angels can understand



Funny how that’s the only one that gets spoken today.


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## Madman (Aug 26, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Paul talks about a language not even the angels can understand


I have missed that passage.  Where exactly is that?


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## Madman (Aug 26, 2022)

Found it humorous that MacArthur said the Duck Dynasty boys “are not orthodox”.

Pot meet kettle.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Aug 27, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> This is all very vague.  Have you ever asked them directly what they believe?



Why does a church need a single, defined position on every question of doctrine such as spiritual gifts?  It is enough that I know they are OK with what I believe and teach on the matter so I know my family and guests will be welcome (not excluded or subject to litmus tests for sincerely held Biblical practices).  Does everyone in a church need to march in lock step on every question?  Every leader?  I don't think so.  If I required ministry partners to agree with me on every point of doctrine, I'd wouldn't find many people to work with.

I've learned not to push people to define their beliefs in areas where they are in transition in positive directions.  When people are growing, I let them keep growing.

Once strict cessationists get to know serious, Biblical, and loving Pentecostals well, they usually soften their view.  Over time, they see both the fruit and the gifts of the Holy Spirit.  Once you see the real thing in person - including gifts of prophecy, word of wisdom, word of knowledge, healing, and miracles, as well as the ability to stand on God's word in difficult circumstances, you stop doubting, and you want what they have.

May the Lord baptize your wife in the Holy Spirit and give her whatever spiritual gifts he desires.  May seeing her blessings prompt you to ask for gifts of the Holy Spirit yourself.


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## brutally honest (Aug 27, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Why does a church need a single, defined position on every question of doctrine such as spiritual gifts?



Maybe not every question but certainly the main ones.  I would put spiritual gifts in that category.  

It just seems like your approach to theology is “whatever”.  In this thread alone, you’ve talked about worshiping in:

a Southern Baptist church 
a Messianic church 
a charismatic church (Free Chapel)
a church of Christ (WFR)

… and you seem to switch between them with no more thought than you’d use to pick out your socks for the day.  

Just to pick out a couple of examples, none of those churches share the same beliefs on baptism or spiritual gifts.  (As I said before, WFR may have changed some beliefs, but the WFR I knew was rock solid on baptism and spiritual gifts — and they didn’t agree with you.)

Side note:  when I saw this thread title, I thought it was a joke because I couldn’t imagine you joining the WFR I knew.


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## brutally honest (Aug 27, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Once strict cessationists get to know serious, Biblical, and loving Pentecostals well, they usually soften their view.



I don’t think that’s the best way to “test the spirits”.  That’s the exact way some have come to accept homosexuality in the church:







For the record:  I am NOT equating homosexuality with speaking in tongues.  I’m just questioning using our own experiences as the ultimate test of doctrine.


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## NCHillbilly (Aug 27, 2022)

I still prefer my church on top of a mountain or in a flowing mountain stream. Ain't nobody arguing about what is right and wrong up there either, just me and the Lord. No complications wanted or needed.


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## brutally honest (Aug 27, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I still prefer my church on top of a mountain or in a flowing mountain stream. Ain't nobody arguing about what is right and wrong up there either, just me and the Lord. No complications wanted or needed.



You don’t like those buildings filled up every Sunday with those horrible, judgmental, hypocritical, self-righteous Christians.

We get it.  Seriously, we get it.  We got it at least a hundred posts ago.


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## brutally honest (Aug 27, 2022)

Israel said:


> A man in Christ is a liberty transport. And worship is not a sometime's thing.



Posting in tongues ^^^^

Is there an interpreter in the house?


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## NCHillbilly (Aug 27, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> You don’t like those buildings filled up every Sunday with those horrible, judgmental, hypocritical, self-righteous Christians.
> 
> We get it.  Seriously, we get it.  We got it at least a hundred posts ago.


And y'all are still fighting tooth and nail with one another about little picky points of doctrine and denominations, instead of having that "fellowship" that the bible talks about. And will continue to do so. Look at yourselves. The Lord is likely shaking his head about now. Continue on with your status quo. Seems like a lot of folks are much, much more concerned with putting others down than worrying about their own relationship with the Creator.


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## gopray12 (Aug 27, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> And y'all are still fighting tooth and nail with one another about little picky points of doctrine and denominations, instead of having that "fellowship" that the bible talks about. And will continue to do so. Look at yourselves. The Lord is likely shaking his head about now. Continue on with your status quo. Seems like a lot of folks are much, much more concerned with putting others down than worrying about their own relationship with the Creator.


So you prefer to ignore most of the New Testament where Jesus,Paul,Peter,and James warn us about false gospels. It’s people who take your philosophy of worshiping on your own based on your own terms is the reason we have false gospels today. Mormons, Muslims, Buddhists all believe in Jesus, just somewhere along the line God supposedly told their original leader that God should be worshipped a certain way and that way was contradictory to the true Gospel we see in the New Testament.


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## brutally honest (Aug 27, 2022)

gopray12 said:


> So you prefer to ignore most of the New Testament where Jesus,Paul,Peter,and James warn us about false gospels. It’s people who take your philosophy of worshiping on your own based on your own terms is the reason we have false gospels today. Mormons, Muslims, Buddhists all believe in Jesus, just somewhere along the line God supposedly told their original leader that God should be worshipped a certain way and that way was contradictory to the true Gospel we see in the New Testament.



Don’t get him started.


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## brutally honest (Aug 27, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> The Lord is likely shaking his head about now.



The Lord has been shaking His head at mankind since the garden of Eden.


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## gopray12 (Aug 27, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Don’t get him started.


Just stating the obvious. Why in the world would Jesus,Peter,James,Paul and John warn us more about this than any other thing taught in the New Testament. They knew that following the true Christ doctrine would be tough and that others would come along with their own ideas on how to follow God.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 27, 2022)

I do a good bit of genealogy and I noticed that the various Protestants seemed to inter-mingle more at the turn of the century. Some even married out of their denomination. They shared in worship, etc.
Methodist and Baptist Churches once stood on the same hill next to each other.
My great grandmother's father was a Primitive Baptist preacher. She married a Holiness preacher.
I can see on Find-a-Grave, whole families buried at three different Churches of three different faiths. I'm not doubting that they disagreed on things but it doesn't seem like it divided them on thinking the others were preaching or teaching a false Gospel.
There was Oneness folks worshiping with Trinitarians, Free will Baptists worshiping with Election Baptists, wet foots worshiping with dry foots.

One Church I read about from the 1800's in Axson, Ga. predates the town. It was not affiliated with a denomination and thus why they called it "Union Hill."


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## NCHillbilly (Aug 27, 2022)

gopray12 said:


> So you prefer to ignore most of the New Testament where Jesus,Paul,Peter,and James warn us about false gospels. It’s people who take your philosophy of worshiping on your own based on your own terms is the reason we have false gospels today. Mormons, Muslims, Buddhists all believe in Jesus, just somewhere along the line God supposedly told their original leader that God should be worshipped a certain way and that way was contradictory to the true Gospel we see in the New Testament.


Yes, the old one, too. I am not a Jew from 2000 years ago. I believe there is a higher power. I don't believe that any of the organized religions have a lock on it.


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## NCHillbilly (Aug 27, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> The Lord has been shaking His head at mankind since the garden of Eden.


He supposedly designed us just like we are. Ain't my fault.


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## NCHillbilly (Aug 27, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Don’t get him started.


I ain't got nothing on the rest of y'all when it comes to arguing.


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## tell sackett (Aug 27, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> He supposedly designed us just like we are. Ain't my fault.


Um, no. 
Just sayin’


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## Spotlite (Aug 27, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> He supposedly designed us just like we are. Ain't my fault.





tell sackett said:


> Um, no.
> Just sayin’


Couple fellas on here will agree with the hillbilly - that big word “pre”. ??


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## NCHillbilly (Aug 27, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> Um, no.
> Just sayin’


So, he didn't make us like we are? Who did?


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## tell sackett (Aug 27, 2022)

Sin


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## NCHillbilly (Aug 27, 2022)

Why were we designed to want to sin? Then set up with the golden opportunity to? Then blamed for it? Doesn't make much sense to me. 

If you leave a bowl of candy in the middle of the living room, then set your kids on fire for eating it, I would not consider you a good parent.


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## tell sackett (Aug 27, 2022)

We are free moral agents with a will. We weren’t “designed to sin”, but because God gave us a will we have the ability to sin.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 27, 2022)

Why would an all knowing God be shaking his head? He would have already seen.


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## NCHillbilly (Aug 27, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> We are free moral agents with a will.


I didn't design me like that.


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## tell sackett (Aug 27, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I didn't design me like that.


That’s right


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## NCHillbilly (Aug 27, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> We are free moral agents with a will. We weren’t “designed to sin”, but because God gave us a will we have the ability to sin.


Same difference. Don't blame me for acting exactly like you made me to function.


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## tell sackett (Aug 27, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Same difference. Don't blame me for acting exactly like you made me to function.


But He didn’t


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## NCHillbilly (Aug 27, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> But He didn’t


Okkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk.............

Have a nice day.


----------



## buckpasser (Aug 27, 2022)

We’re all designed to basically do whatever we want.  A fallen Satan and us as a race enjoy many aspects of sin.  Actual worship that has value requires something of us.  That something is a choice to die to our own desires and live through HIS sacrifice and in HIS grace.  Even when we don’t believe a certain version or fact (that we know deep down is likely real), this concept still stands. 

It’s just easier to walk away from it and self indulge.  You know, use the wide road.


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## tell sackett (Aug 27, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Okkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk.............
> 
> Have a nice day.


He created two sinless people who could have a relationship with Him, He didn’t create two robots. He didn’t force them into that relationship, He gave them a will. Before He created them He knew what they would do and He already had a plan in place to redeem them and all their descendants. He is a wonderful, loving God who loves you and wants a relationship with you too through His Son. 

Hope you have a wonderful day.


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## NCHillbilly (Aug 27, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> He created two sinless people who could have a relationship with Him, He didn’t create two robots. He didn’t force them into that relationship, He gave them a will. Before He created them He knew what they would do and He already had a plan in place to redeem them and all their descendants. He is a wonderful, loving God who loves you and wants a relationship with you too through His Son.
> 
> Hope you have a wonderful day.


And by the way, don't mess with that big tree with delicious fruit that I planted right over there to set you up for failure, and don't listen to that talking snake  ( ? ) that's fixin' to come through here tomorrow that I could stop but I won't, because I want to blame ya'll for sinning like I know that you're about to do......


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## tell sackett (Aug 27, 2022)

That’s a rather rough, not to mention inaccurate paraphrase , but it doesn’t change the fact that He loves you and wants you for His child.


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## gopray12 (Aug 27, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Yes, the old one, too. I am not a Jew from 2000 years ago. I believe there is a higher power. I don't believe that any of the organized religions have a lock on it.


Got ya. So you are basically a humanist. Makes sense. So I guess you have no use  for the Roman Senator Tacitus and his writings on the crucifixion of Jesus with the temporary death of Christianity. The writing is not from the Bible and he definitely was not a follower of Christ but yet his writings confirm what is in the Gospels and Acts.  Yeah I’ll just ignore the Bible too.


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## NCHillbilly (Aug 27, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> That’s a rather rough, not to mention inaccurate paraphrase , but it doesn’t change the fact that He loves you and wants you for His child.


I have a relationship with my Creator. It might be as good as yours is. Might not. Who knows? I don't question the validity of yours though. It may work perfectly for you.


----------



## gopray12 (Aug 27, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I have a relationship with my Creator. It might be as good as yours is. Might not. Who knows? I don't question the validity of yours though. It may work perfectly for you.


So you believe in a “god” just not the one described in the Bible?


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## NCHillbilly (Aug 27, 2022)

gopray12 said:


> Got ya. So you are basically a humanist. Makes sense. So I guess you have no use  for the Roman Senator Tacitus and his writings on the crucifixion of Jesus with the temporary death of Christianity. The writing is not from the Bible and he definitely was not a follower of Christ but yet his writings confirm what is in the Gospels and Acts.  Yeah I’ll just ignore the Bible too.


Nope, I wouldn't say so. I don't think humans are all that much important in the overall scheme of things than anything else, for the most part. 

If I was to define my religious beliefs, I guess I would put them more in line with many Native American or Celtic tribes.


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## NCHillbilly (Aug 27, 2022)

gopray12 said:


> So you believe in a “god” just not the one described in the Bible?


Yes. I feel/ believe there is a higher power, force, energy, or something that permeates everything. I think it deserves our respect. I don't pretend to understand it, though. And I don't think it is defined absolutely by any mainstream religion. I would liken most religions to the blind men each feeling an individual part of an elephant and defining the whole by that part.


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## gopray12 (Aug 27, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Nope, I wouldn't say so. I don't think humans are all that much important in the overall scheme of things than anything else, for the most part.
> 
> If I was to define my religious beliefs, I guess I would put them more in line with many Native American or Celtic tribes.


So once again I ask have you ever looked at the writings of Tacitus?


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## NCHillbilly (Aug 27, 2022)

gopray12 said:


> So once again I ask have you ever looked at the writings of Tacitus?


Not that I recall. I'm always reading this and that, but I don't specifically remember that. I would agree that Jesus was likely an actual historical person who made quite an impact on his world at the time. And he seemed to have some ideas that I agree with to a pretty good extent, if the writings about him are true and factual. Do I believe he was literally the son of God? I'm not fully convinced of that.


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## gopray12 (Aug 27, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Not that I recall. I'm always reading this and that, but I don't specifically remember that. I would agree that Jesus was likely an actual historical person who made wuite an impact on his world at the time. And he seemed to have some ideas that I agree with to a pretty good extent, if the writings about him are true and factual.


So Tacitus writing that Pilate killed Jesus, which he states temporarily silenced the Christian movement means nothing to you?  Those who believe in the Bible know that the followers of Christ had basically ran away and stopped the “movement” for three days after Christ death. Obviously Tacitus doesn’t mention a resurrection, but I wouldn’t expect him to because he was loyal Roman Senator. What is interesting to me is that he says the movement was halted for a brief moment before it was re energized again with the Christian’s causing problems in Judea and Rome. The questions I ask is how or why was the Christian movement re energized. For me, I assume that the apostles saw Jesus alive again. Why else would they have come back together. They abandoned and even denied knowing him after his death


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## Spotlite (Aug 27, 2022)

gopray12 said:


> So you believe in a “god” just not the one described in the Bible?


That’s part of the problem when presenting that God, “the one described in the Bible” - to others.

Every denomination has a different description and according to them they’re all right. The hillbilly made a good point, we give ourselves a black eye arguing over what’s right / wrong. The God of the Bible doesn’t have a different meaning of scripture for each denomination. At some point folks have to ask the hard question of why did “My denomination founder listed in Wikipedia” break off from…..

I believe in the one God of the Bible, but I don’t agree with many of “man’s” ideologies that have described Him.


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## gopray12 (Aug 27, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> That’s part of the problem when presenting that God, “the one described in the Bible” - to others.
> 
> Every denomination has a different description and according to them they’re all right. The hillbilly made a good point, we give ourselves a black eye arguing over what’s right / wrong. The God of the Bible doesn’t have a different meaning of scripture for each denomination. At some point folks have to ask the hard question of why did “My denomination founder listed in Wikipedia” break off from…..
> 
> I believe in the one God of the Bible, but I don’t agree with many of “man’s” ideologies that have described Him.


And that is why America has the largest group of biblically illiterate Christians ever. Reading and studying the Bible is to hard and boring. Why not just show up once a week, get some free donuts and coffee, watch a rock concert, then have someone tell you how you should believe. That sounds fun and cool.


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## Spotlite (Aug 27, 2022)

gopray12 said:


> And that is why America has the largest group of biblically illiterate Christians ever. Reading and studying the Bible is to hard and boring. Why not just show up once a week, get some free donuts and coffee, watch a rock concert, then have someone tell you how you should believe. That sounds fun and cool.


True. Now, let’s convince every Christian on this forum that disagrees with us of that ^^^^


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 27, 2022)

gopray12 said:


> And that is why America has the largest group of biblically illiterate Christians ever. Reading and studying the Bible is to hard and boring. Why not just show up once a week, get some free donuts and coffee, watch a rock concert, then have someone tell you how you should believe. That sounds fun and cool.


Don't most of us stay in the comfort zone and believe as our parents did/do? Not all of us are just eating free donuts and attending those rock concerts.
You can't judge all of us on this forum as free donut eaters just because was all have different beliefs.

No matter what they tell us
No matter what they do
No matter what they teach us
What we believe is true

Most us us know that what we believe is true even if we all believe differently from each other. Most of us believe what our parents and their Church taught us.


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## gopray12 (Aug 27, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> True. Now, let’s convince every Christian on this forum that disagrees with us of that ^^^^


Lol!!! Impossible. As I had it described to me from a leader in on of Andy’s Stanley satellite churches “this is the model of worship that works and is preferred” cue my head exploding.


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## brutally honest (Aug 27, 2022)

gopray12 said:


> As I had it described to me from a leader in on of Andy’s Stanley satellite churches “this is the model of worship that works and is preferred” cue my head exploding.



I have friends who go there, but I just can't do the "megachurch" thing.


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## Ruger#3 (Aug 27, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Don't most of us stay in the comfort zone and believe as our parents did/do? Not all of us are just eating free donuts and attending those rock concerts.
> You can't judge all of us on this forum as free donut eaters just because was all have different beliefs.
> 
> No matter what they tell us
> ...



Not true, I ran, not walked, from my parents church. Concepts I’ve learned since joining my current church never entered my mind previously.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 27, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> Not true, I ran, not walked, from my parents church. Concepts I’ve learned since joining my current church never entered my mind previously.


I did say most folks. Not that there is anything wrong with that.


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## The Original Rooster (Aug 27, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> Not true, I ran, not walked, from my parents church. Concepts I’ve learned since joining my current church never entered my mind previously.


I think I've learned more reading the Bible online and using the many reliable Bible study resources available online than I ever learned growing up at Church. Granted, you have to research each Bible study resource before accepting it.


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## gopray12 (Aug 27, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> I have friends who go there, but I just can't do the "megachurch" thing.


I was at his Church for about three years.  Finally realized every Sunday was just draining me spiritually more and more.  His model is more for the casual, in-crowd, attendee.  Also, when I asked a leader if we could have lunch to talk about my concerns, he declined and said they were not changing the model.  When Church leadership start to sound more like marketing professionals, don't just walk away, but run


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## gopray12 (Aug 27, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Don't most of us stay in the comfort zone and believe as our parents did/do? Not all of us are just eating free donuts and attending those rock concerts.
> You can't judge all of us on this forum as free donut eaters just because was all have different beliefs.
> 
> No matter what they tell us
> ...



I grew up in the COC, but broke away after diving deeper in the Bible.  Although no men are perfect I do think that writings from Spurgeon, Packer, and Tozer are as about as good as it gets when needing assistance with understanding the attributes of God.  When I was at Andy Stanley church all I saw was people staying in their comfort zone.  That was even evident in the small groups I was involved in.

Look up Peter Drucker and you will see how the majority of churches in America fell off the rails.  Most all churches you see today are modeled after Peter Drucker successful business theory model "management by objectives"  Look and see how many churches paid him thousands of dollars so he could teach them how to behave more like corporations.


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## Madman (Aug 27, 2022)

[


Artfuldodger said:


> Most us us know that what we believe is true even if we all believe differently from each other.



Would better phraseology be; Most of us THINK what we believe is true……….”?


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## kmckinnie (Aug 27, 2022)

I like the Caucasus features that most pictures of Jesus have that we see now. 
I have often wondered what this man looked like. 2000 years ago


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## kmckinnie (Aug 27, 2022)

Like this pic.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 27, 2022)

He probably looked more like this.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 27, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> I think I've learned more reading the Bible online and using the many reliable Bible study resources available online than I ever learned growing up at Church. Granted, you have to research each Bible study resource before accepting it.


I like Bible Hub. You can compare the various writings and use the lexicon to see what the words mean and their origin.


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## kmckinnie (Aug 28, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> He probably looked more like this.


So your saying the Bible lost the true image of what Jesus looked like.


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## NE GA Pappy (Aug 28, 2022)

kmckinnie said:


> So your saying the Bible lost the true image of what Jesus looked like.



I think what he is saying is that Jesus was of Jewish decent and probably looked like most Jewish men of that day.  And a lot like the Jewish men of today


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## brutally honest (Aug 28, 2022)

It doesn’t matter what Jesus looked like.  He could have looked like Bruce Lee, and His message would still be the same.

“ … man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.”

 - 1 Sam. 16:7


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## brutally honest (Aug 28, 2022)

This thread has drifted way off course.


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## Ruger#3 (Aug 28, 2022)

From Jewish historical documents:

In his letter Lentulus describes the condemned man named Jesus of Nazareth as having: _a noble and lively face, with fair and slightly wavy hair; black and strongly curving eyebrows, intense penetrating blue eyes and an expression of wondrous grace.  His nose is rather long.  His beard is almost blonde, although not very long.  His hair is quite long, and has never seen a pair of scissors.....His neck is slightly inclined, so that he never appears to be bitter or arrogant.  His tanned face is the color of ripe corn and well proportioned.  It gives the impression of gravity and wisdom, sweetness and good, and is completely lacking in any sign of anger._


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Aug 28, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Maybe not every question but certainly the main ones.  I would put spiritual gifts in that category.
> 
> It just seems like your approach to theology is “whatever”.  In this thread alone, you’ve talked about worshiping in:
> 
> ...



On Judgement Day, our character will matter more than our doctrine.

If a church has a sound gospel message, my focus is then on zeal, love, and holiness rather than doctrinal agreement.  Yes, there are doctrinal differences in the churches I've attended.  I usually only leave a church if I move, if the church closes, or if a leader is in serious sin without correction.  Unfortunately, a lot of churches have closed since 2019.  Since most of my work since 2019 has been evangelism, I have also prioritized churches that do a good job shepherding new believers.

If I required a church to agree with me on every important point of doctrine, I probably wouldn't have one. Can you name any that are:
1.) Have no firm position on "once saved, always saved" believing that the Bible does not answer that question as clearly as adherents on either side assert.
2.)  Are literal six-day creationists and believe in a literal global flood.
3.)  Believe in all the spiritual gifts described in Scripture, but don't insist that Holy Spirit baptism is always accompanied by speaking in tongues.
4.)  Abhor "name it claim it" and the prosperity gospel.
5.)  Faithfully execute 1 Corinthians 5:11-13.

Every doctrinal litmus test a believer requires of a church reduces the possible field by a factor of roughly two for questions on which churches are split about evenly.  Yet by the time one has followed Jesus for 30+ years, he should probably have formed some view on most of the big doctrinal questions.  Making 10 doctrinal questions into litmus tests means only one in 1024 (2^10) will pass.  Making 20 doctrinal questions into litmus tests means only one in a MILLION (2^20) will pass.

As far as I can tell, WFR has a solid gospel message, good teaching, and takes better care of new believers than most churches available to me and my audience.  And they're moving closer to the Biblical position on spiritual gifts.  Can you suggest a better alternative, or will you only express disappointment in my choice?


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## Spotlite (Aug 28, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> On Judgement Day, our character will matter more than our doctrine.
> 
> If a church has a sound gospel message, my focus is then on zeal, love, and holiness rather than doctrinal agreement.  Yes, there are doctrinal differences in the churches I've attended.  I usually only leave a church if I move, if the church closes, or if a leader is in serious sin without correction.  Unfortunately, a lot of churches have closed since 2019.  Since most of my work since 2019 has been evangelism, I have also prioritized churches that do a good job shepherding new believers.
> 
> ...


So, a person can preach a false doctrine as long as they have good character…………

I believe scripture is going to disagree with you here. Ephesians 4 is just a starting place.


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## brutally honest (Aug 28, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Can you suggest a better alternative, or will you only express disappointment in my choice?



It’s not disappointment.  It’s confusion over your seeming “Eenie, meenie, miney, moe” method of church shopping.  Your post clears that up … a little.  

I’m still confused, though, over what WFR actually teaches.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Aug 28, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> So, a person can preach a false doctrine as long as they have good character…………



That's not my view.  I've learned to appreciate humility in not making every point of doctrinal disagreement into a litmus test.  Scripture tells us explicitly what the most important points of doctrine are, and those points ARE a litmus test for me.   (See 1 Cor 15)

What is "false doctrine"?  Any point of Biblical teaching you disagree with?

Consider that Paul accepted doctrinal disagreements, writing to the Philippians, "And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you."  If we are diligent like the Bereans, searching the Scriptures daily to see if what the preachers say is true, then God will wash us through his word and we will become more and more like Jesus.  For many believers, their doctrine is far ahead of their character.  Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up.  Experience has taught me it's better to trust brothers whose character is ahead of their doctrine.

Paul also wrote to the Corinthians, "No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval."  But Paul was clear (1 Cor 13) that love among the Corinthians was more important than doctrinal uniformity.  He then laid out the most important doctrines.

From a practical viewpoint, I am much more likely to agree 100% with a church's statement of faith if it is closer to 500 words long and sticks to the most important doctrines.  By the time a church's statement of faith is 5000 words long (close to the Baptist Faith and Message), there will be a few points of disagreement.  If those aren't show stoppers for them, then they aren't show stoppers for me either.  Most Southern Baptist preachers don't have 100% agreement with that document, and the SBC does not expect them to.


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## gopray12 (Aug 28, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> That's not my view.  I've learned to appreciate humility in not making every point of doctrinal disagreement into a litmus test.  Scripture tells us explicitly what the most important points of doctrine are, and those points ARE a litmus test for me.   (See 1 Cor 15)
> 
> What is "false doctrine"?  Any point of Biblical teaching you disagree with?
> 
> ...



Much you talk about I would consider as secondary issues. When I say false gospel I’m talking about those who bring a different gospel and a different Jesus. It is clear from Jesus, Paul, Peter and James that we should not partner with them. That’s why I have a problem with Robertson’s is that they financially partner with people who preach a different Jesus


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## Spotlite (Aug 28, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> That's not my view.  I've learned to appreciate humility in not making every point of doctrinal disagreement into a litmus test.  Scripture tells us explicitly what the most important points of doctrine are, and those points ARE a litmus test for me.   (See 1 Cor 15)
> 
> What is "false doctrine"?  Any point of Biblical teaching you disagree with?
> 
> ...


This was your view “On Judgement Day, our character will matter more than our doctrine”

But, no, a false doctrine isn’t anything I disagree with - it’s anything that disagrees with the Gospel. Within that are ALSO multiple doctrines; there’s a way that seems right………., I can think of Donnie Swaggart making fun of Pentecostals speaking in tongues and receiving the Holy Ghost, now he’ll Yabba Dabba do during his preaching saying that receiving the Holy Ghost is another level of salvation -
He’s not the only one preaching multiple doctrines of salvation.

All I’m saying is there’s a lot of finger pointing saying “you’re doctrine isn’t right, mine is”.

Doctrine is important.


----------



## gopray12 (Aug 28, 2022)




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## Artfuldodger (Aug 28, 2022)

Wouldn't a false gospel also be a Church whose members were arrogant and bold? A group that wasn't meek and humble? A group that isn't willing to help when they see someone in need?
Members that show compassion to all and is more Spiritual than political? A Church that isn't celebrity lead but lead by the Spirit?
A Church whose member are not seeking power or fame? A Church that helps others and gives all that Glory to God and not self? Not for human pride but for God?
In other words, isn't part of the gospel also acting more like Christ who said he does the will of his Father?
While I do see the statement about the free donut eaters, I can also see the side of the "i'm a bold, and loud person full of pride who is doing stuff for self and not God" or the "I'm helping every person by giving a little bit of money." or "I say I'm a fair an honest person but my actions don't exactly show it."
I guess I'm talking about the extremes of what the Gospel actually is and how Christ acted when he was walking the earth compared to what some Church member are today.


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## NCHillbilly (Aug 28, 2022)

Seems to me like if God is all-powerful, and wanted folks to follow a certain set of rules and behaviors, He would write out a universal list in plain language that could be understood by everyone, instead of a bunch of ambiguous stuff that no dozen people can agree about. We half half a dozen major religions, with hundreds of denominations inside of some, because nobody can agree on what God wants, even with the Bible there, along with other books that are revered just as much by their respective groups. You can't hardly find a single church where all the members agree about what the proper doctrine is. It wouldn't be that hard for the Lord, I don't think, and would save an awful lot of confusion. I think human nature causes people to prefer to argue about details instead of working together for the common good, seems like.


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## The Original Rooster (Aug 28, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Seems to me like if God is all-powerful, and wanted folks to follow a certain set of rules and behaviors, He would write out a universal list in plain language that could be understood by everyone, instead of a bunch of ambiguous stuff that no dozen people can agree about. We half half a dozen major religions, with hundreds of denominations inside of some, because nobody can agree on what God wants, even with the Bible there, along with other books that are revered just as much by their respective groups. You can't hardly find a single church where all the members agree about what the proper doctrine is. It wouldn't be that hard for the Lord, I don't think, and would save an awful lot of confusion. I think human nature causes people to prefer to argue about details instead of working together for the common good, seems like.


You pointed it out exactly. It's not God's message so much as it is human nature. If the Lord sent just one message to us like, "Don't eat soap my children", then the first thing most humans will do is start thinking of exceptions to the Lord's command not to eat soap. We can't help ourselves, because the Lord gave us free will.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 28, 2022)

Plus the purpose that the rules given was to show us that man could not keep them and thus needed a Savior.
This beginning with Adam. He had to be shown that he could not keep the Covenant. The Word was with God standing by for his mission way before Adam was ever created.

It's not like the Law was plan A and if man failed God would send plan B. God already knew what man would do before he created him.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Aug 28, 2022)

gopray12 said:


>



Thanks for posting this.  Washer sums up my view of the relative importance of various doctrines better than I have in the few minutes following this link:


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## brutally honest (Aug 28, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Washer sums up my view of the relative importance of various doctrines …



What do you think about this?








I ask because I’d be shocked if the WFR elders held a different view.


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## The Original Rooster (Aug 28, 2022)

Israel said:


> actually you have made the far better argument for no free will.


I disagree. Correlation is not causation.


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## Nicodemus (Aug 28, 2022)

Israel said:


> The Son_ is _the full epistle. All the Bible is solely for the purpose of demonstrating the testimony of that living epistle. _He is life._




You do far more damage to your cause than you help it with your twisted and confusing posts. And you are too dense to even realize it. Open your eyes and see for yourself.


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## 4HAND (Aug 28, 2022)

It seems to me that church hopping is a sign of instability.
We are to be rooted & grounded.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Aug 28, 2022)

4HAND said:


> It seems to me that church hopping is a sign of instability.
> We are to be rooted & grounded.



COVID closures were the sign of instability.  I just recognized it for what it was.  I found a church that stayed open and chose not to return to those that closed.


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## 4HAND (Aug 28, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> COVID closures were the sign of instability.  I just recognized it for what it was.  I found a church that stayed open and chose not to return to those that closed.


We never closed either. Moved to outside services. Slowly phased back inside.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Aug 28, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> What do you think about this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm a practical cessationist also regarding the "gift on tongues" as I've most often witnessed it in charismatic circles.  I find nothing in the babbling that gives evidence of the Holy Spirit's work without real evidence of the fruit of the Holy Spirit in the lives of those making claims of Holy Spirit "baptism." 

But I, like the WFR elders, am willing to take a look at the fruit in a person's life, and I will NOT disobey the Biblical imperative "do not forbid speaking in tongues."  They have preached from the pulpit that they see Biblical tongues mostly as an intelligible language (that is still available today for preaching to foreign audiences), but they do not forbid members from exercising a private prayer language.


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## The Original Rooster (Aug 28, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> I'm a practical cessationist also regarding the "gift on tongues" as I've most often witnessed it in charismatic circles.  I find nothing in the babbling that gives evidence of the Holy Spirit's work without real evidence of the fruit of the Holy Spirit in the lives of those making claims of Holy Spirit "baptism."
> 
> But I, like the WFR elders, are willing to take a look at the fruit in a person's life, and I will NOT disobey the Biblical imperative "do not forbid speaking in tongues."  They have preached from the pulpit that they see Biblical tongues mostly as an intelligible language (that is still available today for preaching to foreign audiences), but they do not forbid members from exercising a private prayer language.


I've always found it interesting, and perhaps telling, that Paul spoke of many spiritual gifts but speaking in tongues and understanding it were two of the most visible ones that people display in church. He also said that without love, these gifts are essentially false, and that's how I try to interpret if someone is genuine or not in these gifts.


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## Spotlite (Aug 28, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> COVID closures were the sign of instability.  I just recognized it for what it was.  I found a church that stayed open and chose not to return to those that closed.


Covid closures were a sign of common sense. But, who actually closed permanently? Many adjusted to how they conducted services. Using common sense to prevent spreading any virus should not be compared to church hopping.


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## Ruger#3 (Aug 28, 2022)

Some folks worry about things that never cross my mind. I go to church to celebrate Christ, make my confession, and be blessed through the sacraments. I pray and talk to God other times but it’s not the same as church services. In layman's terms when your with the church it takes it to the next level.


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## brutally honest (Aug 28, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> I'm a practical cessationist also regarding the "gift on tongues" ...



Well, I'm shocked.  

I gave up a long time ago trying to make heads or tails out of Israel's posts.  I'm about at that point with you.  Trying to identify any consistent or coherent theology in your posts has been completely futile.  As I said before, if you have a guiding principle in your theology, it seems to be "whatever".

You've been worshipping with (at least) four different churches for the last few years.  I hope WFR is your last, but I would not be surprised if it's just the first of the next seventeen.


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## gemcgrew (Aug 28, 2022)

4HAND said:


> It seems to me that church hopping is a sign of instability.
> We are to be rooted & grounded.


The believer is rooted and grounded in Christ. If a local assembly is stunting the growth of a believer, he will not be allowed to remain there very long.


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## SemperFiDawg (Aug 28, 2022)

Wow I'm gone for a few days and this thread has splintered into about fifty-seven, eleven different discussions.  Apparently Israel's "flight of ideas" is contagious.


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## gemcgrew (Aug 28, 2022)

Israel said:


> The Son_ is _the full epistle. All the Bible is solely for the purpose of demonstrating the testimony of that living epistle. _He is life._


You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 

Only one Life is presented throughout the Bible.


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## Browning Slayer (Aug 28, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> This thread has drifted way off course.


Never had any “real” content...


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## 4HAND (Aug 28, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> The believer is rooted and grounded in Christ. If a local assembly is stunting the growth of a believer, he will not be allowed to remain there very long.


Absolutely. That's not what I was talking about. I'm talking about folks that Church hop.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Aug 29, 2022)

gopray12 said:


> Much you talk about I would consider as secondary issues. When I say false gospel I’m talking about those who bring a different gospel and a different Jesus. It is clear from Jesus, Paul, Peter and James that we should not partner with them. That’s why I have a problem with Robertson’s is that they financially partner with people who preach a different Jesus



In doing the work of an evangelist to reach the lost, Jesus and the apostles set an example of accepting platforms provided by and standing next to unsavory people. Their motive was the opportunity to reach an audience with the real gospel.

I've accepted jobs alongside Catholic teachers for the same purpose.  I've entered media venues provided by people of many different religious perspectives for the same reason.  Often, they are making money (ad revenue) from my content.  In-person venues (school and churches) have often charged or taken offerings based in part on my efforts.   My focus is on the opportunity to bring the message.  Right now, I can't think of any school or church I'd reject an invitation to play music in or to speak at simply based on their denomination or the "error" of their message.  Nor can I think of any media venue I'd reject out of hand.  Each opportunity would be prayerfully considered:  Mormon, Catholic, name-it-claim-it, DNC, etc.  WWJD?  Is God calling me to speak to this audience?

I've seen Phil speak hundreds of times on a venue provided by a prominent Mormon organization (Unashamed on Blaze TV) and dozens of times on venues of other denominations.  There is no doubt in my mind that the Mormons have a false Jesus and a false gospel.  He's there to reach an audience and is not repelled by some legalistic thought of some benefit coming to those providing the venue or on the platform with him.  He brings a biblical gospel message to tens of millions who need to hear it.  We need more men like him.  I've learned a lot from him about reaching Rednecks.  I may or may not accept an invitation to speak on Blaze TV or TBN.  I hope I'd pray about it and follow the Holy Spirit's leading if the opportunity arises.  But I'm not going to judge brothers because they accept evangelistic opportunities that I might not.

But much of the discussion stinks because it suggests that Christians and churches should have some sort of "blacklist" of "false teachers" that goes beyond a warning of not accepting their doctrines or practices, but extends much further to refusing to share any kind of platform with them - even if we see it as a promising opportunity to reach the lost souls they may have led astray.

The Bible encourages us to judge brothers by their character and message, not by who they hang out with.  This video is a good summary of the gospel as I often present it.  Do you regard it as false?


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## Ruger#3 (Aug 29, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> In doing the work of an evangelist to reach the lost, Jesus and the apostles set an example of accepting platforms provided by and standing next to unsavory people. Their motive was the opportunity to reach an audience with the real gospel.
> 
> I've accepted jobs alongside Catholic teachers for the same purpose.  I've entered media venues provided by people of many different religious perspectives for the same reason.  Often, they are making money (ad revenue) from my content.  In-person venues (school and churches) have often charged or taken offerings based in part on my efforts.   My focus is on the opportunity to bring the message.  Right now, I can't think of any school or church I'd reject an invitation to play music in or to speak at simply based on their denomination or the "error" of their message.  Nor can I think of any media venue I'd reject out of hand.  Each opportunity would be prayerfully considered:  Mormon, Catholic, name-it-claim-it, DNC, etc.  WWJD?  Is God calling me to speak to this audience?
> 
> ...



So Catholics are now an unsavory lot……….your pompous judgemental arrogance knows no boundaries.


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## Ruger#3 (Aug 29, 2022)

FYI, I’m not Catholic but I’m catholic.


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## SemperFiDawg (Aug 29, 2022)

Israel said:


> Reading is fundamental.
> 
> 
> And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
> ...



Now THAT I can understand.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Aug 29, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> So Catholics are now an unsavory lot……….your pompous judgemental arrogance knows no boundaries.



That was not what I said, nor what I intended.  I was answering a video that criticized Phil Robertson for sharing a stage and speaking positively about Catholics.  Catholics seem to be unsavory to those who made and propagated that video, but not to me.  I once applied for, and was offered a physics faculty job at Notre Dame, which I declined to pursue another opportunity, not because I think of Catholics as "unsavory."


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## Ruger#3 (Aug 29, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> That was not what I said, nor what I intended.  I was answering a video that criticized Phil Robertson for sharing a stage and speaking positively about Catholics.  Catholics seem to be unsavory to those who made and propagated that video, but not to me.  I once applied for, and was offered a physics faculty job at Notre Dame, which I declined to pursue another opportunity, not because I think of Catholics as "unsavory."



You can crawfish anyway you want but that’s what you said. I may not believe in all the teachings of the brothers faith here but I respect them and learn from their perspective.

“In doing the work of an evangelist to reach the lost, Jesus and the apostles set an example of accepting platforms provided by and standing next to unsavory people. Their motive was the opportunity to reach an audience with the real gospel.

I've accepted jobs alongside Catholic teachers for the same purpose.”


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## brutally honest (Aug 29, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> This video is a good summary of the gospel as I often present it.  Do you regard it as false?



At one time, WFR sure would.  I guess they’re cool with it now, but who knows?

I just can’t figure out if you don’t understand them or they don’t understand you.


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## brutally honest (Aug 29, 2022)

gopray12 said:


> Most hard core COC folk would tell you that WFR is not a COC.



This would explain a lot.


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## brutally honest (Aug 29, 2022)

gopray12 said:


> … they said they were trying to distance themselves from the COC title.



But are they keeping traditional COC doctrine?  I don’t think I’m the only one who’s confused.


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## brutally honest (Aug 29, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> You can crawfish anyway you want but that’s what you said. I may not believe in all the teachings of the brothers faith here but I respect them and learn from their perspective.
> 
> “In doing the work of an evangelist to reach the lost, Jesus and the apostles set an example of accepting platforms provided by and standing next to unsavory people. Their motive was the opportunity to reach an audience with the real gospel.
> 
> I've accepted jobs alongside Catholic teachers for the same purpose.”



Give him time.  At his current rate of church shopping, he should be celebrating Mass by 2025 at the latest.


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## SemperFiDawg (Aug 29, 2022)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> I once applied for, and was offered a physics faculty job at Notre Dame, which I declined to pursue another opportunity,





LittleDrummerBoy said:


> In-person venues (school and churches) have often charged or taken offerings based in part on my efforts.





LittleDrummerBoy said:


> WFR has a solid gospel message, good teaching, and takes better care of new believers than most churches available to me and my audience.












brutally honest said:


> Trying to identify any consistent or coherent theology in your posts has been completely futile.  As I said before, if you have a guiding principle in your theology, it seems to be "whatever" "I, me, my, mine".



He can't help himself, but it ain't exactly rocket science to figure out who he worships.   It's the guy in the mirror.  His theology is whatever it needs to be, whatever best strokes his ego.  That accounts for not just the church hopping but the denomination/doctrine hopping.  The quest for more and more recognition, more and more viewers, more and more platforms, bigger and bigger congregations.  In hindsight, the WFR(or one similar to it) should have been predictable.  It's sad really in that he's not gonna find anything big enough to satiate that appetite.  It is what it is.


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## gopray12 (Aug 29, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> This would explain a lot.


It's stupid and annoying, but as soon as you drop the COC title from your name and introduce instruments other COC worshipers will treat you like the plague.  How do know?  I have been in COCs for almost 40 years.  Everything from the most conservative COC to the most liberal COC.  I'm not sure where they stand on the issue of salvation happening at baptism, because their website is vague.  I know that there are youtube videos where Phil states this, but I feel like I heard a podcast where they (robertsons) were backing away from this traditional COC doctrine of salvation at baptism.  It is interesting that the worship service where they have with instruments is in their "fellowship" center and not "worship" area.  It's like they are going part of the way, but not all the way.


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## brutally honest (Aug 29, 2022)

SemperFiDawg said:


>




LOL

That would make a better avatar than his current one.


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## SemperFiDawg (Aug 29, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Give him time.  At his current rate of church shopping, he should be celebrating Mass by 2025 at the latest.



You just have to ask yourself, if a self described "evangelist" can alienate every member, every denomination and completely incense all the non-believers *on just this board alone*, well, that ain't exactly evangelizing is it?


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## gemcgrew (Aug 29, 2022)

SemperFiDawg said:


> You just have to ask yourself, if a self described "evangelist" can alienate every member, every denomination and completely incense all the non-believers *on just this board alone*, well, that ain't exactly evangelizing is it?


It may very well be. It may even cost a man his life.


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## brutally honest (Aug 29, 2022)

SemperFiDawg said:


> You just have to ask yourself, if a self described "evangelist" can alienate every member, every denomination and completely incense all the non-believers *on just this board alone*, well, that ain't exactly evangelizing is it?



The man’s got talent!


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## brutally honest (Aug 29, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Give him time.  At his current rate of church shopping, he should be celebrating Mass by 2025 at the latest.




After he leaves Catholicism, I foresee LDB officiating a wedding in 2037:


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## Spotlite (Aug 29, 2022)

> 1. I've accepted jobs alongside Catholic teachers for the same purpose. I've entered media venues provided by people of many different religious perspectives for the same reason. Often, they are making money (ad revenue) from my content?
> 
> 
> I've seen Phil speak hundreds of times on a venue provided by a prominent Mormon organization (Unashamed on Blaze TV) and dozens of times on venues of other denominations. There is no doubt in my mind that the Mormons have a false Jesus and a false gospel.
> ...




1. LDB - You ever wonder if it is just the celebrity of the "duck dynasty"" and NOT their religious message that gets them on venues? A lot of Christians will listen to Tom Cruise speak about the goodness of stuff.

I doubt there is any doctrine being preached by you or Phil at these venues, especially the ones you have stated that you are sure they are a false doctrine. I don`t think either of you are famous enough to preach a doctrine that will differ than theirs and they invite you back. I know most churches have a pastor that will set you down if you try preaching a different doctrine or give his church correction that he does not approve of. Let`s ask @tell sackett how this works from a Pastoral view. Mr. Sacket would you allow anyone to take the pulpit that you have been called to preach to come in and preach a different doctrine to your congregation? 

2. Interesting.  But, yes, the Bible does say mark them, disfellowship with them. Pretty much scriptures that many use to prove their stance on how to correct "adultery" in the church. You know, that "what does light have to do with darkness" thing?

But, then again, in the church gets no profit from adds on venues, either.


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## tell sackett (Aug 29, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> 1. LDB - You ever wonder if it is just the celebrity of the "duck dynasty"" and NOT their religious message that gets them on venues? A lot of Christians will listen to Tom Cruise speak about the goodness of stuff.
> 
> I doubt there is any doctrine being preached by you or Phil at these venues, especially the ones you have stated that you are sure they are a false doctrine. I don`t think either of you are famous enough to preach a doctrine that will differ than theirs and they invite you back. I know most churches have a pastor that will set you down if you try preaching a different doctrine or give his church correction that he does not approve of. Let`s ask @tell sackett how this works from a Pastoral view. Mr. Sacket would you allow anyone to take the pulpit that you have been called to preach to come in and preach a different doctrine to your congregation?
> 
> ...



First, I want to say that what’s on display here is disheartening and I have no desire to be a part of it. 

Second, I’m very particular( to put it mildly) about who fills the pulpit at the church I’m pastoring. If by chance someone did stand in it and begin to teach some doctrine that I’m convinced is contrary to sound doctrine as we are given in Scripture ( we’re currently in a series on the doctrines of our faith btw) in all likelihood they’re not going to finish.


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## Spotlite (Aug 29, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> First, I want to say that what’s on display here is disheartening and I have no desire to be a part of it.
> 
> Second, I’m very particular( to put it mildly) about who fills the pulpit at the church I’m pastoring. If by chance someone did stand in it and begin to teach some doctrine that I’m convinced is contrary to sound doctrine as we are given in Scripture ( we’re currently in a series on the doctrines of our faith btw) in all likelihood they’re not going to finish.


I would agree.


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## The Original Rooster (Aug 29, 2022)

4HAND said:


> Absolutely. That's not what I was talking about. I'm talking about folks that Church hop.


Confession time. In college, I stopped going to the Baptist Student Union on Wednesday nights because I started dating a girl who went to the Methodist church and the Methodist's church Wednesday night supper was better than what the BSU could offer. Does that count as church hopping?


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## tell sackett (Aug 29, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> Confession time. In college, I stopped going to the Baptist Student Union on Wednesday nights because I started dating a girl who went to the Methodist church and the Methodist's church Wednesday night supper was better than what the BSU could offer. Does that count as church hopping?


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## Madman (Aug 29, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> The believer is rooted and grounded in Christ. If a local assembly is stunting the growth of a believer, he will not be allowed to remain there very long.


That is an interesting thought.  How would "a local assembly" stunt the growth of a believer and is there a difference in the Church and a local assembly?

Just asking.  I don't believe the Church could stunt the growth of a believer, if they are teaching the "faith once delivered to the saints".


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## The Original Rooster (Aug 29, 2022)

tell sackett said:


>


In truth it turned out to be a good thing. I found that the Methodist church gave a message I needed to hear at the time about living as a Christian instead of the Baptist message at the BSU which was always about getting saved. In my mind, I was thinking, "Ok I'm saved and now what?". The Methodist church helped me understand that much better.


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## Madman (Aug 29, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Give him time.  At his current rate of church shopping, he should be celebrating Mass by 2025 at the latest.


Maybe 'Cept I think he is married.  Perhaps he and his wife are willing to live as brother and sister.

There are about 20,000 more protestant "assemblies" to look into first.  It would be much easier, they don't mind tweaks in doctrine.


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## Madman (Aug 29, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> Second, I’m very particular( to put it mildly) about who fills the pulpit at the church I’m pastoring. If by chance someone did stand in it and begin to teach some doctrine that I’m convinced is contrary to sound doctrine as we are given in Scripture ( we’re currently in a series on the doctrines of our faith btw) in all likelihood they’re not going to finish.



Smart move.  It takes much longer to fix an incorrect teaching than give one.

No one preaches from the pulpits of our branch of Anglicanism unless we are in FULL communion, and a lot goes into that.


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## tell sackett (Aug 29, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> In truth it turned out to be a good thing. I found that the Methodist church gave a message I needed to hear at the time about living as a Christian instead of the Baptist message at the BSU which was always about getting saved. In my mind, I was thinking, "Ok I'm saved and now what?". The Methodist church helped me understand that much better.



A boat we miss all too often.


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## The Original Rooster (Aug 29, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> A boat we miss all too often.


The Lord is mysterious like that and that's how I often think of all the different denominations. Just another mysterious way the Lord reaches all of us.


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## tell sackett (Aug 29, 2022)

Since we’re ‘fessing up, I started another thread about my granddaughter’s baptism yesterday. Full disclosure: the other guy in the water is a Methodist.


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## SemperFiDawg (Aug 29, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> Confession time. In college, I stopped going to the Baptist Student Union on Wednesday nights because I started dating a girl who went to the Methodist church and the Methodist's church Wednesday night supper was better than what the BSU could offer. Does that count as church hopping?



No.  That sounds like buffet shopping to me.  All things being equal, going with the best fried chicken is never the wrong answer.


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## SemperFiDawg (Aug 29, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> In truth it turned out to be a good thing. I found that the Methodist church gave a message I needed to hear at the time about living as a Christian instead of the Baptist message at the BSU which was always about getting saved. In my mind, I was thinking, "Ok I'm saved and now what?". The Methodist church helped me understand that much better.



I've found God gives me what I need when I need it if I can just remember 'What God has cleansed, *you* do not call unholy*.'* He used a donkey to speak what Balaam needed to hear.  I don't think it's a stretch for him to use other believers (or unbelievers) to speak what I need to hear.  Where I'm concerned the problem is with my ears and eyes.  The message doesn't get conveyed through my thick skull that's a matrix of preconceptions and misgivings.  We all have a prideful bent that says God has to operate inside these constraints I've placed on Him through my vast understanding.  It limits my hearing his voice and seeing his daily miracles like nothing else.  When I can function outside of that, the miracles appear and His voice comes through like the dawning of the morning sun.  As soon as I forget it and lapse back into forgetting who i am and WHO HE IS, they're gone.


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## SemperFiDawg (Aug 29, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> Since we’re ‘fessing up, I started another thread about my granddaughter’s baptism yesterday. Full disclosure: the other guy in the water is a Methodist.



So did he sprinkle her before or after she was dunked?


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## Spotlite (Aug 29, 2022)

SemperFiDawg said:


> So did he sprinkle her before or after she was dunked?


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## tell sackett (Aug 29, 2022)

He was a dunking Methodist (fortunately)


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## tell sackett (Aug 29, 2022)

Spotlite said:


>


Man, I miss Jerry. He was one of a kind.


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## Spotlite (Aug 29, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> Man, I miss Jerry. He was one of a kind.


Yes Sir, that’s for sure!! Definitely one of a kind!!


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## gemcgrew (Aug 30, 2022)

Madman said:


> That is an interesting thought.  How would "a local assembly" stunt the growth of a believer and is there a difference in the Church and a local assembly?


A local assembly may be completely antichrist. Even though Christ can reveal truth to the believer in such an environment, the believer is not likely to be tolerated for long.



Madman said:


> Just asking.  I don't believe the Church could stunt the growth of a believer, if they are teaching the "faith once delivered to the saints".


That is a pretty big "if".


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 30, 2022)

Perhaps LDB reaches more unsaved during his ministry outside of this forum than he does on this forum. 
From there those he reaches can get on this forum and then learn what they need to know from us and not LDB.


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## gemcgrew (Aug 30, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Perhaps LDB reaches more unsaved during his ministry outside of this forum than he does on this forum.
> From there those he reaches can get on this forum and then learn what they need to know from us and not LDB.


LDB is serving God's purpose, as well as those who mock him.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 11, 2022)

Israel said:


> Then this would apply to LDB, no?



IMHO his messages are dangerously misguided, cause division, and are completely self-serving....at best.  I can't say that about the donkey's.  Obviously there are those here who feel differently. To each his own opinion.  That's mine and I'm done with the matter.


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## Browning Slayer (Sep 22, 2022)

SemperFiDawg said:


> IMHO his messages are dangerously misguided, cause division, and are completely self-serving....at best. .



^this^


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