# I'm going to church



## ambush80 (Feb 9, 2017)

So I get this app called Nextdoor.  It's like a community bulletin board.  Someone posted this:
_
 Astrophysicist, "Does God Exist?"
Nathan D. from Edgewood · 1h ago

I know this is crazy early but I'm super excited about this!

I just heard from Astrophysicist Paul Wallace and he is coming to Edgewood on Sunday, August 27th to talk about "Does God Exist?" from a scientific perspective. _

I looked up Paul Wallace (http://psnt.net/blog/about-the-author/) and found an article he wrote in HuffPo titled "How to talk to Creationists".  From the article:

_"It is good and necessary to learn as much about science and the cosmos as you can and to bring that into your dialogue. That is your responsibility. Engage them as deeply as your knowledge will allow. But winning an argument with a well-prepared and defensive creationist is not really possible. The point is not to be right but to kick the conversation down the road a little, and to learn about your parishioners along the way."_

He seems interesting to me.  I think I'd like to hear what he has to say.  Here's some more articles he wrote for HuffPo.  I think they're pretty interesting:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/author/paul-wallace


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## red neck richie (Feb 12, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> So I get this app called Nextdoor.  It's like a community bulletin board.  Someone posted this:
> _
> Astrophysicist, "Does God Exist?"
> Nathan D. from Edgewood · 1h ago
> ...



Awesome let me know how it was and you thoughts. To know God you have to seek God.


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## ambush80 (Feb 14, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> Awesome let me know how it was and you thoughts. To know God you have to seek God.



To believe in God you first have to believe in God.  No one can prove it to you.


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## red neck richie (Feb 14, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> To believe in God you first have to believe in God.  No one can prove it to you.



True. But you can't blame a guy for trying can you.


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## ambush80 (Feb 15, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> True. But you can't blame a guy for trying can you.




Is there anything else in your life that you believe in prior to having evidence?


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## red neck richie (Feb 15, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> Is there anything else in your life that you believe in prior to having evidence?



Not as an adult but I'm not sure I totally understand your question.


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## ambush80 (Feb 15, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> Not as an adult but I'm not sure I totally understand your question.




Is there anything else that you believe in like you believe in God where you have to believe in it before you can believe it?


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## GunnSmokeer (Feb 16, 2017)

what  does "coming to Edgewood on August 27th" mean?

August of this year-- 2017?  Over 6 months from now?

And what is this "Edgewood" place?  A theater? A church?  A community center?  Or just the neighborhood a few miles due east of downtown Atlanta, no more specifics known?


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## ambush80 (Feb 17, 2017)

GunnSmokeer said:


> what  does "coming to Edgewood on August 27th" mean?
> 
> August of this year-- 2017?  Over 6 months from now?
> 
> And what is this "Edgewood" place?  A theater? A church?  A community center?  Or just the neighborhood a few miles due east of downtown Atlanta, no more specifics known?



The event I cited is being held at The Edgewood Church in East Atlanta.  The co-pastor, Nathan Dean is hosting.  Here are links he included and his e-mail:

Nathan@EdgewoodChurchAtlanta.org

http://edgewoodchurchatlanta.org/

http://onechristianlife.com/


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## jmharris23 (Mar 16, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> Is there anything else that you believe in like you believe in God where you have to believe in it before you can believe it?



Marriage. When I married my wife 17 years ago, I believed that she would stay with me for the long haul, but had no real concrete evidence to show you other than about 11months of dating her. You could say that I had a lot of faith and a little evidence. 

After 17 years of being married, I now have a lot of evidence and a stronger faith.


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## 660griz (Mar 16, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> Marriage. When I married my wife 17 years ago, I believed that she would stay with me for the long haul, but had no real concrete evidence to show you other than about 11months of dating her. You could say that I had a lot of faith and a little evidence.
> 
> After 17 years of being married, I now have a lot of evidence and a stronger faith.



You had evidence so you asked. If you would have had evidence to the contrary, you wouldn't have asked. Like for 11 months you said, "I love you", and she said, "Pfffft". Plus, based on the divorce rates, we all know it is a crap shoot but, willing to take a gamble.


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 16, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> To believe in God you first have to believe in God.  No one can prove it to you.



Evidence and testimony are the foundations for belief in God and everything else in life.  Hypocrisy is applying this principle to everything else in life *but *God.


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## bullethead (Mar 16, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Evidence and testimony are the foundations for belief in God and everything else in life.  Hypocrisy is applying this principle to everything else in life *but *God.



What god? Where is this god? What evidence from your particular god stands out from all the other gods? What is unique?


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## ambush80 (Mar 16, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Evidence and testimony are the foundations for belief in God and everything else in life.  Hypocrisy is applying this principle to everything else in life *but *God.



Give me your best evidence.


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## Israel (Mar 18, 2017)

660griz said:


> You had evidence so you asked. If you would have had evidence to the contrary, you wouldn't have asked. Like for 11 months you said, "I love you", and she said, "Pfffft". Plus, based on the divorce rates, we all know it is a crap shoot but, willing to take a gamble.


There is only one unchanging indicator that a man may be in for a divorce.


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## 660griz (Mar 20, 2017)

Israel said:


> There is only one unchanging indicator that a man may be in for a divorce.



Pool boy always at your house...and you don't have a pool?


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## Miguel Cervantes (Mar 20, 2017)

660griz said:


> You had evidence so you asked. If you would have had evidence to the contrary, you wouldn't have asked. Like for 11 months you said, "I love you", and she said, "Pfffft". Plus, based on the divorce rates, we all know it is a crap shoot but, willing to take a gamble.


What is this divorce rate you speak of?

Surely it isn't the unscientific, estimated 50%?

http://www.refinery29.com/2017/01/137440/divorce-rate-in-america-statistics


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## ambush80 (Mar 20, 2017)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> What is this divorce rate you speak of?
> 
> Surely it isn't the unscientific, estimated 50%?
> 
> http://www.refinery29.com/2017/01/137440/divorce-rate-in-america-statistics



What does this mean?

_"All of this means that no single percentage is ever going to apply to everyone. Ahead, we've collected a few of those factors that can increase — and lower — your chances of divorce."_


Interesting data:

http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/12/15983/

_"Some incorrectly believe that the 50 percent number comes from a simple comparison of the number of weddings and divorces in a given year, yet no serious scholar or demographer has ever measured divorce rates that way."_

Why is this not a good way to measure the divorce rate?  If there are 1 million married couples in a given year (including newly weds) and that same year 500,000 couples get divorced, doesn't that mean a 50% divorce rate for that year?


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## 660griz (Mar 20, 2017)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> What is this divorce rate you speak of?
> 
> Surely it isn't the unscientific, estimated 50%?
> 
> http://www.refinery29.com/2017/01/137440/divorce-rate-in-america-statistics



Cohort measure rate.
The 40-50% number comes from a detailed analysis of various population demographics, including ages, life span projections, etc. It represents a sophisticated projection of a calculated risk, much like projected life span for babies born today. . . .  [It] is a valid projection under current conditions and it pertains to new, first time marriages.

I should have stated divorce risk instead of rate. Sorry.
We can ignore that last sentence about the divorce rate. Really not very relevant to my point anyway.


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## Gaducker (Mar 20, 2017)

The love of YOUR child is one of those things that you believe in and have no evidence of until you have your newborn in your arms.


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## 660griz (Mar 20, 2017)

Gaducker said:


> The love of YOUR child is one of those things that you believe in and have no evidence of until you have your newborn in your arms.



I prefer to keep an open mind until they leave the house.
It could go either way.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Mar 20, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> What does this mean?
> 
> _"All of this means that no single percentage is ever going to apply to everyone. Ahead, we've collected a few of those factors that can increase — and lower — your chances of divorce."_
> 
> ...





660griz said:


> Cohort measure rate.
> The 40-50% number comes from a detailed analysis of various population demographics, including ages, life span projections, etc. It represents a sophisticated projection of a calculated risk, much like projected life span for babies born today. . . .  [It] is a valid projection under current conditions and it pertains to new, first time marriages.
> 
> I should have stated divorce risk instead of rate. Sorry.
> We can ignore that last sentence about the divorce rate. Really not very relevant to my point anyway.



Drawing from all data up until the last 8 years (which there is no hard and fast data) divorce was referring to heterosexual marriage. There is a whole new dynamic to be added to the stats now that LGBT marriage is legal.


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## ambush80 (Mar 20, 2017)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Drawing from all data up until the last 8 years (which there is no hard and fast data) divorce was referring to heterosexual marriage. There is a whole new dynamic to be added to the stats now that LGBT marriage is legal.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divorce_of_same-sex_couples


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## Gaducker (Mar 20, 2017)

660griz said:


> I prefer to keep an open mind until they leave the house.
> It could go either way.



Well yea I guess so but both mine have been a pure pleasure to raise and when my first born went off to college it hurt me like that first love in highschool hurt..

 I have been blessed to have good kids I guess.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Mar 20, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divorce_of_same-sex_couples



Well now. If you go by that link the divorce rate per year is only about 3.4% among couple of all sexes.


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## Israel (Mar 20, 2017)

660griz said:


> Pool boy always at your house...and you don't have a pool?


Now that's funny right there...


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## gordon 2 (Mar 20, 2017)

bullethead said:


> What god? Where is this god? What evidence from your particular god stands out from all the other gods? What is unique?



a)The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

b) At both ends of ordered consciousness and inbetween; in the formation of consciousness and will, the sustaining of these and their shoring up . But mostly God is at the end ( outside) of ordered human consciousness. People meet with my God when they seek God or of God due the disorder of life, usually from within a life crisis or simply from seeking God.

c) My God is a savior of the poor due a charity that surveys beyond or outside of what I can understand by myself ( and every body else). Poverty is not only lack of wealth, it  is also despair.

d)My God is the first and the last will known to me that is consistent from the first to the last. I know my God even in the lives of people who might not know of my God. My God is the creator of my consciousness and all that my consciousness can claim as an object from bias to beans.


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## 660griz (Mar 21, 2017)

Gaducker said:


> Well yea I guess so but both mine have been a pure pleasure to raise and when my first born went off to college it hurt me like that first love in highschool hurt..
> 
> I have been blessed to have good kids I guess.



Plus, I assume you have evidence they are yours and not the spawn of Satan. You have that going for you...which is nice.


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## 660griz (Mar 21, 2017)

gordon 2 said:


> People meet with my God when they seek God or of God due the disorder of life, usually from within a life crisis or simply from seeking God.


 Some of the main reasons religion exists right there.



> My God is a savior of the poor due a charity that surveys beyond or outside of what I can understand by myself ( and every body else). Poverty is not only lack of wealth, it  is also despair.


 Yet, there is still millions of folks in poverty.



> My God is the first and the last will known to me that is consistent from the first to the last. I know my God even in the lives of people who might not know of my God. My God is the creator of my consciousness and all that my consciousness can claim as an object from bias to beans.


 Thanks to where you were born and who you were born to. Lucky you. You could have been stuck with one of those crazy gods.


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## j_seph (Mar 21, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> Is there anything else in your life that you believe in prior to having evidence?


That your parents are your parents. We do not remember coming out of the womb, the first time we were held, we really don't remember about the first 3 years of our lives. We have no proof that this man and woman are our actual parents unless we have a paternity test to scientifically prove that they are. How many of our members here have had that test done to verify that your parents are your birth parents? May be a lot of folks here that were adopted when they believed the whole time these were their birth parents.


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## ambush80 (Mar 21, 2017)

j_seph said:


> That your parents are your parents. We do not remember coming out of the womb, the first time we were held, we really don't remember about the first 3 years of our lives. We have no proof that this man and woman are our actual parents unless we have a paternity test to scientifically prove that they are. How many of our members here have had that test done to verify that your parents are your birth parents? May be a lot of folks here that were adopted when they believed the whole time these were their birth parents.



The evidence to prove your kinship to your parents is abundant.  Furthermore, a man claiming "I'm your father" is easy to accept.  It doesn't violate any understood parameters of reality as we know it.  A claim like "God is my father" is a strange claim that is very difficult, maybe impossible to prove.  

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  What's your evidence j_seph?


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## ambush80 (Mar 21, 2017)

I'll give you a hint.  The answer is "Nothing else in my life is like my faith.  Ultimately, I don't rely on any of the worldly means of proving things real in order to believe.  I just believe first and in doing so I confirm my belief".

Do I understand faith?


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## 660griz (Mar 21, 2017)

j_seph said:


> That your parents are your parents.



If they are raising me, they are my parents. Unless I need a liver, biological connection is of no importance.
Although I do get to see the birth certificate. Still not absolute truth but, close enough. (Pool boy?)


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## j_seph (Mar 21, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> Is there anything else in your life that you believe in prior to having evidence?


Again, yes you can have blood test, DNA to scientifcally prove they are your Bio Parents. Your question was Is there anything in your life that you believe in prior to having evidence. You have no evidence other than you believe that they are your bio parents.



ambush80 said:


> Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  What's your evidence j_seph?



http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=745946&highlight=testimony

Have you ever seen someone whom is unsaved get convicted at church that they are headed to &#%^ get saved? When you see the true conviction it should be enough proof for anyone.

Friend of mine was called to preach. He ran from it not wanting to do it. He ended up having a wreck, was thrown out of the car. His bible was laying on the ground beside him, the only glass left in the car was a window that had a cross sticker on it. Even EMT could not believe he survived much less without major injuries.

Another friend, had most of his intestines removed and was told he wouldn't survive past 21. He past away in 2007 at 88 years old.

Prayers my wife has prayed for about her job, she went today from $7 something an hour to almost triple that an hour. Same job, doing same thing, same location, same employer.

How about the holy spirit get on someone? Have you seen it happen? Have you experienced it yourself? This ole boy right here cannot talk in front of more than about 2 people much less a group he knows and especially a group of over 100 he does not know. I will refuse and not do it period. It has been put on my heart before, more than once that I needed to say something at church. once was in front of the church of over 100 I did not know. There is no feeling like it and afterwards I will end up with legs a shaking like shooting that big buck.

I can somewhat understand why folks do not believe when they have never been around it nor opened their hearts up to it and only use their carnal minds and try to figure things out to get proof of something. One thing is for sure, as long as folks keep trying to prove there is not a God they still give the slightest hope to other non believers that maybe just maybe there is a God because no one can prove there isn't.


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## j_seph (Mar 21, 2017)

660griz said:


> If they are raising me, they are my parents. Unless I need a liver, biological connection is of no importance.
> Although I do get to see the birth certificate. Still not absolute truth but, close enough. (Pool boy?)


They have pools in Hogansville?


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## bullethead (Mar 21, 2017)

gordon 2 said:


> a)The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
> 
> b) At both ends of ordered consciousness and inbetween; in the formation of consciousness and will, the sustaining of these and their shoring up . But mostly God is at the end ( outside) of ordered human consciousness. People meet with my God when they seek God or of God due the disorder of life, usually from within a life crisis or simply from seeking God.
> 
> ...


Your god has a lot in common with all the other gods.
We can go round and round on this unprovable claims merry go round  but I hope that you see the flaws in your claims and actually have something tangible that you can back them up with.

I "get" what people think their god means to them.
I want you guys to actually produce a god instead of your fantasies. So far, all the things claimed are hype for a no show.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 21, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Your god has a lot in common with all the other gods.
> We can go round and round on this unprovable claims merry go round  but I hope that you see the flaws in your claims and actually have something tangible that you can back them up with.
> 
> I "get" what people think their god means to them.
> I want you guys to actually produce a god instead of your fantasies. So far, all the things claimed are hype for a no show.



I see. I guess I misunderstood your questions.


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## 660griz (Mar 22, 2017)

j_seph said:


> They have pools in Hogansville?



We call em cement ponds.


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## ambush80 (Mar 23, 2017)

j_seph said:


> Again, yes you can have blood test, DNA to scientifcally prove they are your Bio Parents. Your question was Is there anything in your life that you believe in prior to having evidence. You have no evidence other than you believe that they are your bio parents.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's not good enough evidence for me and it wouldn't be for you either if someone was claiming the same things about the power of some other God that you don't personally believe in.


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## j_seph (Mar 23, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> That's not good enough evidence for me and it wouldn't be for you either if someone was claiming the same things about the power of some other God that you don't personally believe in.



There is only one God, one creator. Almost sounds as you are confused or rather cannot make up your mind if there is one God or not. Like it says in 1 John, try the spirits. Until you experience it you will never understand and even then there will be no full understanding of it all.

1 John 4:1-5

4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 23, 2017)

j_seph said:


> There is only one God, one creator. Almost sounds as you are confused or rather cannot make up your mind if there is one God or not. Like it says in 1 John, try the spirits. Until you experience it you will never understand and even then there will be no full understanding of it all.
> 
> 1 John 4:1-5
> 
> ...


Yeah we know, we know.
"There is only one God and he's the Christian God because the Christian book says so".


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## 660griz (Mar 23, 2017)

Islam:
“He is God: there is no god other than Him. It is He who knows what is hidden as well as what is in the open, He is the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy. He is God: there is no god other than Him, the Controller, the Holy One, Source of Peace, Granter of Security, Guardian over all, the Almighty, the Compeller, the Truly Great; God is far above anything they consider to be His partner. He is God: the Creator, the Originator, the Shaper. The best names belong to Him. Everything in the heavens and earth glorifies Him: He is the Almighty, the Wise.”


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## bullethead (Mar 23, 2017)

The only way these gods continue to exist is because there is always some person, who's only interaction with a god is through words written by men, that convinces themselves they know an unknowable. The words they read are no different than all the others in all the other books written by "gods ".


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## j_seph (Mar 23, 2017)

660griz said:


> Islam:
> “He is God: there is no god other than Him. It is He who knows what is hidden as well as what is in the open, He is the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy. He is God: there is no god other than Him, the Controller, the Holy One, Source of Peace, Granter of Security, Guardian over all, the Almighty, the Compeller, the Truly Great; God is far above anything they consider to be His partner. He is God: the Creator, the Originator, the Shaper. The best names belong to Him. Everything in the heavens and earth glorifies Him: He is the Almighty, the Wise.”


^Same God, different belief(religion) of how to get to heaven.

Although Islam is not mentioned directly in the Bible, there is recorded  in the Bible an outline of the Arabic people as the Children of Abraham  who inhabited the “eastern country”. The history of the Muslim peoples,  therefore, begins with the prophet Abraham and his descendants through  Ishmael, his firstborn son.
Genesis 16:15
15 And Hagar bare Abram a son: and Abram called his son's name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael.


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## 660griz (Mar 23, 2017)

j_seph said:


> ^Same God, different belief(religion) of how to get to heaven.
> 
> Although Islam is not mentioned directly in the Bible, there is recorded  in the Bible an outline of the Arabic people as the Children of Abraham  who inhabited the “eastern country”. The history of the Muslim peoples,  therefore, begins with the prophet Abraham and his descendants through  Ishmael, his firstborn son.
> Genesis 16:15
> 15 And Hagar bare Abram a son: and Abram called his son's name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael.



Not quite that simple. There are numerous Muslims and Christians that do not believe it is the same god.
Just one example. There are many.


> Do Muslims and Christians Worship the Same God?
> 
> With this desire for love in mind, I turn now to the question: Do Muslims and Christians worship the same God? Like all good questions, the answer is more complex than most want, but I am confident of my position: Muslims and Christians do not worship the same God, but given the complexity of the matter we all ought to stop demonizing those who disagree with us.


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## bullethead (Mar 23, 2017)

j_seph said:


> Again, yes you can have blood test, DNA to scientifcally prove they are your Bio Parents. Your question was Is there anything in your life that you believe in prior to having evidence. You have no evidence other than you believe that they are your bio parents.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


J-seph, do you have any family or friends or even know of one person that was an amputee and after praying to your god has regrown the limb?


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## bullethead (Mar 23, 2017)

http://krishna.org/a-miracle/ 

A Miracle!

I began to sing my prayers to lord Nrsimha and as I was singing I thought I felt a presence of so kind of spiritual power in the room. I continued my prayers. When my prayer was complete, I bowed down fully in surrender. As I was giving my last prayer (while still in full surrender) I thought I heard a Lion roar somewhere in the background.

It was a warm sunny afternoon on a tuesday. I usually do my prayers around 4:30 p.m, normal worship time, but that day I had to go somewhere, so I did my prayers around 1:30 p.m. I first did my Radha Madhava prayers, Followed by a munghal aarti of Lord Krishna. Now comes the miracle. I began to sing my prayers to lord Nrsimha and as I was singing I thought I felt a presence of so kind of spiritual power in the room. I continued my prayers. When my prayer was complete, I bowed down fully in surrender. As I was giving my last prayer (while still in full surrender) I thought I heard a Lion roar somewhere in the background. I looked up after my prayer to admire the spiritual rupa of Lord Nrsimha and I saw real blood driping from the body of Hirenyakashipu, For a second I was scared, naturally you would be scared if something unexpected happened. But after a while I felt this esctatic joy within me, I felt so happy, even today I feel happy. Can anyone give me a reason why this miracle happened to me and not to the other thousands of devotees?


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## bullethead (Mar 23, 2017)

https://krishnasmercy.com/2011/04/08/Everyday-Miracles/


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## bullethead (Mar 23, 2017)

http://lordbalajimiracles.com/about/


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## bullethead (Mar 23, 2017)

http://www.hinduism.co.za/miracles.htm


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## red neck richie (Mar 23, 2017)

bullethead said:


> The only way these gods continue to exist is because there is always some person, who's only interaction with a god is through words written by men, that convinces themselves they know an unknowable. The words they read are no different than all the others in all the other books written by "gods ".



Not true. I have had personal experiences that are confirmed by the written word. Peoples personal experience with God not just the written word alone confirms their faith. And no I don't believe in other Gods. My God goes by many names and is the one true God. Unknowable to people that don't want to know him. Usually people that have harden their spirit to protect themselves from feeling pain.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Mar 23, 2017)

bullethead said:


> The only way these gods continue to exist is because there is always some person, who's only interaction with a god is through words written by men, that convinces themselves they know an unknowable. The words they read are no different than all the others in all the other books written by "gods ".



What Gods do the Amazonian tribes that know no reading or writing worship?


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## bullethead (Mar 23, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> Not true. I have had personal experiences that are confirmed by the written word. Peoples personal experience with God not just the written word alone confirms their faith. And no I don't believe in other Gods. My God goes by many names and is the one true God. Unknowable to people that don't want to know him. Usually people that have harden their spirit to protect themselves from feeling pain.


You believe in only one more god than I do.
For the reasons that you don't believe in all those other gods are the same reasons I do not believe in yours.

If you dismiss the personal testimonies of other people of other faiths, which also follow and have been confirmed by their written word, then you can see why I dismiss yours.


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## bullethead (Mar 23, 2017)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> What Gods do the Amazonian tribes that know no reading or writing worship?



I was referring to the gods that get the most air time in here.

But, regarding your question I would say oral tradition.
Does that affirm the validity of their claims any more than written?
If their oral tradition exists is that evidence of their god (s) also existing?
Why do many of these tribes not know of Jesus without being told of him first?

And finally, what about the tribes that do not worship any gods?  A while back I posted about a tribe that knows of no higher powers and frankly cant conceive of knowing something that they cannot know in person.


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## bullethead (Mar 23, 2017)

https://daneverettbooks.com/about-dan/about-the-pirahas/
No god concept.
These people get along without any numbers in their language also.


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## bullethead (Mar 23, 2017)

https://ffrf.org/publications/freet...rahae-people-who-define-happiness-without-god

Research Daniel Everett and his experiences as a missionary with the Piraha people when you get a chance.


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## red neck richie (Mar 23, 2017)

bullethead said:


> I was referring to the gods that get the most air time in here.
> 
> But, regarding your question I would say oral tradition.
> Does that affirm the validity of their claims any more than written?
> ...



The Incans called him Viracocha. The Crow Indians called him Akbatatdia. The Aborigine called him Banaitja. Even in the bible different culture's called him by different names. He is the one true God. God the creator. How did ancient tribes with limited knowledge across the globe know about him? Because they felt his presence spiritually.


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## ambush80 (Mar 23, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> The Incans called him Viracocha. The Crow Indians called him Akbatatdia. The Aborigine called him Banaitja. Even in the bible different culture's called him by different names. He is the one true God. God the creator. How did ancient tribes with limited knowledge across the globe know about him? Because they felt his presence spiritually.




Now we're getting somewhere.


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## red neck richie (Mar 23, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> Now we're getting somewhere.



I thought you didn't believe in him because he tested Abraham. Plus a creator doesn't jive with your big bang theory.


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## ambush80 (Mar 23, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> I thought you didn't believe in him because he tested Abraham. Plus a creator doesn't jive with your big bang theory.




I'm saying that your thinking is becoming more nuanced.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 23, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> The Incans called him Viracocha. The Crow Indians called him Akbatatdia. The Aborigine called him Banaitja. Even in the bible different culture's called him by different names. He is the one true God. God the creator. How did ancient tribes with limited knowledge across the globe know about him? Because they felt his presence spiritually.


So then you would have to agree that Christianity is just another example like those you listed above right?


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## Miguel Cervantes (Mar 23, 2017)

bullethead said:


> https://daneverettbooks.com/about-dan/about-the-pirahas/
> No god concept.
> These people get along without any numbers in their language also.



No singular God, but they do assign deity status to animate objects and places. Thus they are not Atheist but rather practice Animism. Mr. Everett conveniently left that out of his construct.


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## red neck richie (Mar 23, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> So then you would have to agree that Christianity is just another example like those you listed above right?



Walt what I am saying is Christianity is not just another example it is the whole truth. I am saying other cultures only have bits and pieces of the truth. Due to lack of knowledge of what they were experiencing spiritually. God sent Jesus to explain and to spread the truth to what many did not understand.


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## bullethead (Mar 23, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> The Incans called him Viracocha. The Crow Indians called him Akbatatdia. The Aborigine called him Banaitja. Even in the bible different culture's called him by different names. He is the one true God. God the creator. How did ancient tribes with limited knowledge across the globe know about him? Because they felt his presence spiritually.


Lots of people name their gods. You connect the dits that are not there. 
We already had a thread that discussed how religious beliefs got started. They didn't feel a presence. They created the presence based off of dead relatives and friends. It evolved as we did.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 23, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> Walt what I am saying is Christianity is not just another example it is the whole truth. I am saying other cultures only have bits and pieces of the truth. Due to lack of knowledge of what they were experiencing spiritually. God sent Jesus to explain and to spread the truth to what many did not understand.


It is interesting to me that you can wrap your head around the idea that all those different cultures, with their different names for the "One God", their different beliefs, their different ways of worshiping, their different claims of their god's powers etc etc..... are allllll worshipping the same God.
And then in the next sentence claim that YOUR particular beliefs are the "whole truth".
If you are worshipping the same God, wouldn't all those different ways of worshiping be "the whole truth"?


> Due to lack of knowledge of what they were experiencing spiritually


.
Weren't they experiencing the same God as you are? And you experience the same God as them?


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## bullethead (Mar 23, 2017)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> No singular God, but they do assign deity status to animate objects and places. Thus they are not Atheist but rather practice Animism. Mr. Everett conveniently left that out of his construct.



I've read that in one of his articles.

They, like many tribes and clans that came before them, assign powers or reasons for things they do not understand to tangible things that they encounter on a daily basis. 
Others that have more advanced knowledge abandoned the animisim and instead assigned those things that they didnt understand to an invisible force that they think exists but cannot be observed.

History has shown how and why religious beliefs constantly change. As humans advance gods need to get more complex or they die out.
As means of gathering evidence advances like cameras and video recording and monitoring equipment the instances and claims of flying men and resurrections decreased to Zero. All the rampant physical miracles suddenly disappeared and now all that is left is these constant claims that literally have no tangible physical evidence to back them up.
We are pack people. We enjoy company. When we don't have it we invent it.
Thats why all the gods hate and love the same people we do. Thats why we think we can speak for something we know nothing about. Thats why these gods were so localized.


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## red neck richie (Mar 23, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> It is interesting to me that you can wrap your head around the idea that all those different cultures, with their different names for the "One God", their different beliefs, their different ways of worshiping, their different claims of their god's powers etc etc..... are allllll worshipping the same God.
> And then in the next sentence claim that YOUR particular beliefs are the "whole truth".
> If you are worshipping the same God, wouldn't all those different ways of worshiping be "the whole truth"?
> .
> Weren't they experiencing the same God as you are? And you experience the same God as them?


I believe most of them were. But keep in mind the Bible wasn't  mass produced until 1454. In fact the inventor of printing press was a German Johannes Gutenberg who invented it for the sole purpose of mass producing the Bible. I'm a printer by trade and know the history. Go figure. Meant to spread the word. And of German ancestry.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 23, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> I believe most of them were. But keep in mind the Bible wasn't  mass produced until 1454. In fact the inventor of printing press was a German Johannes Gutenberg who invented it for the sole purpose of mass producing the Bible. I'm a printer by trade and know the history. Go figure. Meant to spread the word. And of German ancestry.


If they are worshiping the same God as you are why do they need the Bible?

Sure seems like the WAY they worship and not WHO they worship is what seems to be the priority.


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## red neck richie (Mar 23, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> If they are worshiping the same God as you are why do they need the Bible?
> 
> Sure seems like the WAY they worship and not WHO they worship is what seems to be the priority.



They need the bible to understand and to explain what they are experiencing. I agree if it is about the way they worship and not who they are worshipping there priorities are not in order. Its a personal relationship. I don't worry about the way I do things or customs or the way people perceive things. I focus on Him.


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## bullethead (Mar 23, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> I believe most of them were. But keep in mind the Bible wasn't  mass produced until 1454. In fact the inventor of printing press was a German Johannes Gutenberg who invented it for the sole purpose of mass producing the Bible. I'm a printer by trade and know the history. Go figure. Meant to spread the word. And of German ancestry.


If a God truely communicates through a persons spirit, why would a bible be needed at all?
Why wouldn't everyone regardless of geographic location all know the same stories, same names, same locations etc if the same god is responsible?


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## bullethead (Mar 23, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> They need the bible to understand and to explain what they are experiencing. I agree if it is about the way they worship and not who they are worshipping there priorities are not in order. Its a personal relationship. I don't worry about the way I do things or customs or the way people perceive things. I focus on Him.


Why would they need a guide book written by man to explain what a god can communicate?


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## red neck richie (Mar 23, 2017)

bullethead said:


> If a God truely communicates through a persons spirit, why would a bible be needed at all?
> Why wouldn't everyone regardless of geographic location all know the same stories, same names, same locations etc if the same god is responsible?



For the proof and confirmation you have been asking for.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 23, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> They need the bible to understand and to explain what they are experiencing. I agree if it is about the way they worship and not who they are worshipping there priorities are not in order. Its a personal relationship. I don't worry about the way I do things or customs or the way people perceive things. I focus on Him.


You are completely dismissing their beliefs. They "knew" EXACTLY what was happening to them according to their beliefs. And they could explain them - "It didn't rain and the crops are dead and we are starving because we have angered the Rain God"..........
Without meaning to be insulting but..... do you have any clue the amount of arrogance, whether intentional or not, that is required to make and believe this statement? -


> They need the bible to understand and to explain what they are experiencing


That's what organized religion indoctrinates in you.


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## bullethead (Mar 23, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> For the proof and confirmation you have been asking for.



Nah, that written account creates more confusion and arguments.

Couldn't a god convey the message individually through the spirit?
Why no written account earlier in human history? 
Why wait till 3000 years ago when modern civilived people were around 12,000 years ago and less civilized for a couple hundred thousand years before that?


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## red neck richie (Mar 23, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> You are completely dismissing their beliefs. They "knew" EXACTLY what was happening to them according to their beliefs. And they could explain them - "It didn't rain and the crops are dead and we are starving because we have angered the Rain God"..........
> Without meaning to be insulting but..... do you have any clue the amount of arrogance, whether intentional or not, that is required to make and believe this statement? -
> 
> That's what organized religion indoctrinates in you.


No indoctrination here brother. Total free will. I'm as hard headed as they come nobody can tell me anything I will find out for myself. I would argue they didn't totally understand what was happening nor do I claim to . But you have to admit we are all more educated and have more knowledge than the average person 2000 years ago. What they thought was a rain God was God. You can add any prefix you like. Arrogance perhaps but that's how strongly I know what I know based on my life experiences.


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## bullethead (Mar 23, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> No indoctrination here brother. Total free will. I'm as hard headed as they come nobody can tell me anything I will find out for myself. I would argue they didn't totally understand what was happening nor do I claim to . But you have to admit we are all more educated and have more knowledge than the average person 2000 years ago. What they thought was a rain God was God. You can add any prefix you like.


Ill ask you too since j-seph has not answered,

You believe in prayer. You claim to have had prayers answered and have witnessed miracles as far as health issues being cured etc.
Do you know of any amputees that prayed and had their limbs regrow?


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## red neck richie (Mar 23, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Ill ask you too since j-seph has not answered,
> 
> You believe in prayer. You claim to have had prayers answered and have witnessed miracles as far as health issues being cured etc.
> Do you know of any amputees that prayed and had their limbs regrow?



No I have not personally witnessed limb regrowth. But I have witnessed God given technology to create artificial limbs. And as far as health issues I have witnessed healing of drug addicts. My Dad being one. His testimony is powerful and proof as well.


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## bullethead (Mar 23, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> No I have not personally witnessed limb regrowth. But I have witnessed God given technology to create artificial limbs. And as far as health issues I have witnessed healing of drug addicts.


Well I completely understand you attaching a god to things that get done by man in order to try the shift away from my actual question. That style fits in perfectly with the unprovable claims.
 But you are on the spot as to why a god has never answered a prayer to physically regrow a limb. That would require actual physical evidence which never seems to show up.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 23, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> No indoctrination here brother. Total free will. I'm as hard headed as they come nobody can tell me anything I will find out for myself. I would argue they didn't totally understand what was happening nor do I claim to . But you have to admit we are all more educated and have more knowledge than the average person 2000 years ago. What they thought was a rain God was God. You can add any prefix you like. Arrogance perhaps but that's how strongly I know what I know based on my life experiences.[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> > But you have to admit we are all more educated and have more knowledge than the average person 2000 years ago. What they thought was a rain God was God.
> ...


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## red neck richie (Mar 23, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Well I completely understand you attaching a god to things that get done by man in order to try the shift away from my actual question. That style fits in perfectly with the unprovable claims.
> But you are on the spot as to why a god has never answered a prayer to physically regrow a limb. That would require actual physical evidence which never seems to show up.



Physical evidence is there. Saul didn't believe then he became Paul. I told you this before for whatever reason you have you don't want to accept witness and personal testimony as evidence. I think based on our conversation its because of the pain you and I experience when Our loved one dies. Sometimes we pray for mercy and don't receive it and that anger's  us.


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## bullethead (Mar 24, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> Physical evidence is there. Saul didn't believe then he became Peter. I told you this before for whatever reason you have you don't want to accept witness and personal testimony as evidence. I think based on our conversation its because of the pain you and I experience when Our loved one dies. Sometimes we pray for mercy and don't receive it and that anger's  us.


Richie, nothing that you say is evidence would stand up in a court of law. 
My loss of loved ones came many years after I
was well on my way of my current line of thought.
I do not have sour grapes. I didn't pray for something, not get my way, and then get mad at a god. There is no god to get mad at.

Surely if your god brought people back from the dead, healed diseased people, cured blindness, kept them safe from accidents  and even in j-sephs case extorted money from a boss to give his wife a raise....
Why hasn't your god answered one single prayer to help an amputee out?


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## j_seph (Mar 24, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Ill ask you too since j-seph has not answered,
> 
> You believe in prayer. You claim to have had prayers answered and have witnessed miracles as far as health issues being cured etc.
> Do you know of any amputees that prayed and had their limbs regrow?


Sorry I have not been on here. No I have not witnessed it. However I have a friend who lost his arm in a motorcycle wreck. Howeve, through God he happened to be put in a place to run into someone that actually got him hooked up with latest and greatest robotic arm. Just because someone has lost a limb and it does not grow back doesn't mean there is no God. My late wife had a brain tumor, there was many prayer went up for her to be cured. That was not in Gods plan. Had it not been for that, I would be a different person today. Many lives she touched in 10 years fighting it and gave many a reason to keep fighting and living. How would you react with a brain tumor, knowing your odds? She cried one time in 10 years and that was only because she was told she could not have kids. Why did we meet at least 5 other people that had brain tumors and they died long before she did?


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## j_seph (Mar 24, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Richie, nothing that you say is evidence would stand up in a court of law.
> My loss of loved ones came many years after I
> was well on my way of my current line of thought.
> I do not have sour grapes. I didn't pray for something, not get my way, and then get mad at a god. There is no god to get mad at.
> ...



I can only assume you hunt as you are on an outdoors forum. Possibly you are in a hunting club as well. If someone told you in the club or maybe even a neighbor that they had been seeing a big buck crossing at a certain spot would you or would you not go and setup to hunt that spot at least once or twice?


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## WaltL1 (Mar 24, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> No indoctrination here brother. Total free will. I'm as hard headed as they come nobody can tell me anything I will find out for myself. I would argue they didn't totally understand what was happening nor do I claim to . But you have to admit we are all more educated and have more knowledge than the average person 2000 years ago. What they thought was a rain God was God. You can add any prefix you like. Arrogance perhaps but that's how strongly I know what I know based on my life experiences.


So according to you -


> they didn't totally understand what was happening


1. They didn't understand what was happening to them.


> nor do I claim to


2. You don't understand what happened to you.

And your argument is  - 


> I would argue they didn't totally understand


Maybe its just me but........


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## bullethead (Mar 24, 2017)

j_seph said:


> Sorry I have not been on here. No I have not witnessed it. However I have a friend who lost his arm in a motorcycle wreck. Howeve, through God he happened to be put in a place to run into someone that actually got him hooked up with latest and greatest robotic arm. Just because someone has lost a limb and it does not grow back doesn't mean there is no God. My late wife had a brain tumor, there was many prayer went up for her to be cured. That was not in Gods plan. Had it not been for that, I would be a different person today. Many lives she touched in 10 years fighting it and gave many a reason to keep fighting and living. How would you react with a brain tumor, knowing your odds? She cried one time in 10 years and that was only because she was told she could not have kids. Why did we meet at least 5 other people that had brain tumors and they died long before she did?



Those things happen to people who do believe in Jesus, Allah, Krishna and every other god.  Those things happen to people who do not pray to any god.
Nothing you have said stands out as the work of any god whatsoever.

Whatever ailment I happen to have is gonna play out however it plays out. 

I am sorry for your loss of loved ones but people live and people pass on.  Some make it longer than others but we all die. People all over the world survive against all the odds against them. It happens. A god has nothing to do with it.


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## j_seph (Mar 24, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Those things happen to people who do believe in Jesus, Allah, Krishna and every other god.  Those things happen to people who do not pray to any god.
> Nothing you have said stands out as the work of any god whatsoever.
> 
> Whatever ailment I happen to have is gonna play out however it plays out.
> ...


I can only assume you hunt as you are on an outdoors forum. Possibly you  are in a hunting club as well. If someone told you in the club or maybe  even a neighbor that they had been seeing a big buck crossing at a  certain spot would you or would you not go and setup to hunt that spot  at least once or twice?


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## bullethead (Mar 24, 2017)

j_seph said:


> I can only assume you hunt as you are on an outdoors forum. Possibly you  are in a hunting club as well. If someone told you in the club or maybe  even a neighbor that they had been seeing a big buck crossing at a  certain spot would you or would you not go and setup to hunt that spot  at least once or twice?


Id scout it myself to make sure it is in fact a big buck.
"Big " buck is relative.
I would first look for sign.
I would then set out a trail cam to see how big "big" is.
And then if the evidence matched the claims, I would try to set up in a spot that would bring the buck by me.
I definitely wouldn't brag about "my" buck until
I was able to show it.

But please, go on...


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## j_seph (Mar 24, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Id scout it myself to make sure it is in fact a big buck.
> "Big " buck is relative.
> I would first look for sign.
> I would then set out a trail cam to see how big "big" is.
> ...


But yet you would go out of your way to check it out, put the work in to find said deer and sign all based on one fellows testimony that he was there with an open mind that he could be or not be?

Are you not willing to go off many folks testimony about Christianity, put your time in at church and in his word with an open mind to find out if said God, Jesus, Holy Spirit exist?


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## bullethead (Mar 24, 2017)

j_seph said:


> But yet you would go out of your way to check it out, put the work in to find said deer and sign all based on one fellows testimony that he was there with an open mind that he could be or not be?
> 
> Are you not willing to go off many folks testimony about Christianity, put your time in at church and in his word with an open mind to find out if said God, Jesus, Holy Spirit exist?


20 years of thinking there was a god
Plus
20+ years of trying to find a god is a heck of a scouting mission.
No evidence.
No god.

All I have on the trail cams are people running around chasing a god that isnt there.


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## bullethead (Mar 24, 2017)

j_seph said:


> But yet you would go out of your way to check it out, put the work in to find said deer and sign all based on one fellows testimony that he was there with an open mind that he could be or not be?
> 
> Are you not willing to go off many folks testimony about Christianity, put your time in at church and in his word with an open mind to find out if said God, Jesus, Holy Spirit exist?


J-seph I have been going out of my way to find a god for the vast majority of all my years on this planet.
That is what has brought me to my current state.


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## ambush80 (Mar 24, 2017)

j_seph said:


> I can only assume you hunt as you are on an outdoors forum. Possibly you  are in a hunting club as well. If someone told you in the club or maybe  even a neighbor that they had been seeing a big buck crossing at a  certain spot would you or would you not go and setup to hunt that spot  at least once or twice?



If you told me this buck walked on water and rose from the dead and that neither you nor your friend saw it yourselves but read about it in a book full of other myths I wouldn't bother.


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## bullethead (Mar 24, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> If you told me this buck walked on water and rose from the dead and that neither you nor your friend saw it yourselves but read about it in a book full of other myths I wouldn't bother.



^^^^
Like the bible, the believers try to interject reality with wishful thoughts in the hopes that the two mingle and make the wishful thoughts seem more believable.
Deer hunting/Jesus hunting.


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## ambush80 (Mar 24, 2017)

bullethead said:


> ^^^^
> Like the bible, the believers try to interject reality with wishful thoughts in the hopes that the two mingle and make the wishful thoughts seem more believable.
> Deer hunting/Jesus hunting.



It's not worth lacing up my boots for.

I don't get why they think it might have happened "Just that ONE time".  It's like they need it to be true so badly.


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## bullethead (Mar 24, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> It's not worth lacing up my boots for.
> 
> I don't get why they think it might have happened "Just that ONE time".  It's like they need it to be true so badly.



It's all about what a person Needs to be true rather than what is actually true.


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## JFS (Mar 26, 2017)

bullethead said:


> It's all about what a person Needs to be true rather than what is actually true.



Good way to put it.


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## drippin' rock (Mar 27, 2017)

j_seph said:


> But yet you would go out of your way to check it out, put the work in to find said deer and sign all based on one fellows testimony that he was there with an open mind that he could be or not be?
> 
> Are you not willing to go off many folks testimony about Christianity, put your time in at church and in his word with an open mind to find out if said God, Jesus, Holy Spirit exist?



1. Deer exists. 
2. That is all.


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