# Vector Borne Diseases - Lyme, Bartonells, Babesia, RMSF, etc



## Bow Only

If any of you have any questions about these or other diseases, I'll answer to the best of my ability.  

The first thing to know is that the current guidelines for treating Lyme Disease was formed in 2006 by the IDSA (Infectious Disease Society of America.)  These guidelines were adopted as the correct procedure for treating and curing Lyme Disease.  They have been proven inaccurate and the political lobby from the major insurance companies has allowed these guidelines to remain in place.  The CDC knows it and will not adopt any amended guidelines.  

The second important fact to know is that the tests for these diseases are only 50% accurate at best.  In the South, the false negative rate is much higher due to the Southern variant of the bacteria doesn't illicit antibodies on either test used.  There are several new tests that can be helpful, but unless you see a LLMD (Lyme Literate Medical Doctor) your physician won't do the tests.  

To learn about these diseases, go to www.ilads.org  Educate yourself, don't rely on your physician.


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## Gadget

Bow Only said:


> The second important fact to know is that the tests for these diseases are only 50% accurate at best.  In the South, the false negative rate is much higher due to the Southern variant of the bacteria doesn't illicit antibodies on either test used.  There are several new tests that can be helpful, but unless you see a LLMD (Lyme Literate Medical Doctor) your physician won't do the tests.





I basically self diagnosed, did a lot of research and everything matched up. Went to my family practitioner and asked to be tested; first test came back negative. After reading a lot about the inaccuracy of the testing I went back to my Doc and told him about my research; asked for prescription of Docxy, he gave it to me and drew blood for different kind of test that he said was more accurate, it came back positive for both RMSF and Lyme.

Matt did you get Bell's Palsy? That was one of the worst things for me, couldn't drive a car for about a month.  I had it bad; lost all taste, hot was cold, cold was hot, lost most of my eye sight, lost all smell, right side of my face was totally paralyzed, had to wear an eye patch because eye wouldn't blink, had to hold my mouth around a straw to drink, couldn't talk properly, took 6 months to get over. I've never been the same since, some of my nerve damage was permanent. Caused several other problems too.


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## Bow Only

Gadget said:


> I basically self diagnosed, did a lot of research and everything matched up. Went to my family practitioner and asked to be tested; first test came back negative. After reading a lot about the inaccuracy of the testing I went back to my Doc and told him about my research; I asked for a 90 prescription of Docxy, he gave it to me and drew blood for different kind of test that he said was more accurate, it came back positive for both RMSF and Lyme.
> 
> Matt did you get Bell's Palsy? That was one of the worst things for me, couldn't drive a car for about a month.


Bell's Palsy doesn't usually occur unless you've had the disease for quite some time.  I was treated pretty quickly for my Lyme both times.  I had a lot of problems though.  I don't know how I would have made it if it weren't for the treatment.  I was pretty messed up.

The smell cessation, taste alterations, and ear ringing are common symptoms.


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## Gadget

unfortunately mine I believe went untreated for quite some time.


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## alligood729

Matt, in the other thread, I posted about the pile of seed ticks that I got into. Also like I said, it's been 2 weeks with no ill effects at all. Should I have shown some symptoms by this time? Or, are seed ticks not as likely to be a carrier of disease? 
Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions....


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## Rip Steele

I'm  out  of  work  now  due  to  lyme  they  think


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## Bow Only

alligood729 said:


> Matt, in the other thread, I posted about the pile of seed ticks that I got into. Also like I said, it's been 2 weeks with no ill effects at all. Should I have shown some symptoms by this time? Or, are seed ticks not as likely to be a carrier of disease?
> Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions....




You should be fine.  It is highly unlikely that they are a vector for these diseases.

If you did get sick, it would be similar to getting a severe cold or the flu.  Chills, fever, body aches, things like that.


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## 308 WIN

What are the noticeable and un-noticeable differences between seed ticks and ticks that are a danger? A tick has always just been a tick to me. Thanks.


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## Rob

Great thread - I had a good friend with bells palsy and the doc eventually determined it was Lyme disease.


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## alligood729

308 WIN said:


> What are the noticeable and un-noticeable differences between seed ticks and ticks that are a danger? A tick has always just been a tick to me. Thanks.



Seed ticks are TINY!!!! They are tiny black spots, pinhead size or smaller. If you ever get into a mess of them, you will know it. They latch on to you the same way a deer tick does, but I can't emphasize how small they are. When you try to brush them off like they are just pieces of dirt or dust, and they don't move.......look close!


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## Bow Only

308 WIN said:


> What are the noticeable and un-noticeable differences between seed ticks and ticks that are a danger? A tick has always just been a tick to me. Thanks.



A seed tick is just the larval stage for the tick, basically an immature tick.  In order for them to be vectors for disease, they have to bite a rodent, bird, deer, etc that is a vector for borrelia burgdorferi and obtain the bacteria.  Seed ticks are so young, they haven't had a blood meal and don't contain harmful bacteria.  When you get a lot of them at once, you should be OK.  When you get only one, you have a greater chance of disease transmission.


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## spoonman-

I have read up on Lyme-disease carrying ticks and one fact that struck me was that even if you are bitten by an infected adult tick, if you can remove it properly and then get a good shower within 24 hours you are highly unlikely to contract the disease. 

http://ento.psu.edu/extension/urban/lyme-disease

I can also tell you this from the experiences of several people I know personally: Florida is CRAWLING with Lyme disease infected ticks, despite what the "official" CDC maps that show where Lyme is prevalent and where it isnt. One recent study estimated that only about 1 out of 10 cases is being reported, so the numbers are a lot higher that the CDC reports. Georgia is right next to Florida...

The good news: once you get home, get nekkid, look in the mirror. Get rid of any ones you see (bellybutton, lower back and under your booty are common places for them to hide). Get in the shower and that should do the trick. I always save the ones I do find, in a jar of rubbing alcohol, just in case I do get a rash or weird symptoms, the tick can be tested and you can get the right treatments early.

Probably Too much info but Lyme is so preventable, I'd hate to see anyone else get it.


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## jbird1

Gadget said:


> I basically self diagnosed, did a lot of research and everything matched up. Went to my family practitioner and asked to be tested; first test came back negative. After reading a lot about the inaccuracy of the testing I went back to my Doc and told him about my research; asked for prescription of Docxy, he gave it to me and drew blood for different kind of test that he said was more accurate, it came back positive for both RMSF and Lyme.
> 
> Matt did you get Bell's Palsy? That was one of the worst things for me, couldn't drive a car for about a month.  I had it bad; lost all taste, hot was cold, cold was hot, lost most of my eye sight, lost all smell, right side of my face was totally paralyzed, had to wear an eye patch because eye wouldn't blink, had to hold my mouth around a straw to drink, couldn't talk properly, took 6 months to get over. I've never been the same since, some of my nerve damage was permanent. Caused several other problems too.



Gadget,

Any chance you remember the name of the more accurate test?


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## Gadget

jbird1 said:


> Gadget,
> 
> Any chance you remember the name of the more accurate test?




I don't remember the name, but I do remember that they said this particular test couldn't tell if the infection was currently active. What it did was test if I had the antibodies in my blood which told whether I had been exposed to the virus in the past. Evidently once you have it the antibodies stay in your system for some time.

One question that comes to mind, which Matt may be able to answer, is once you have the antibodies and have had the infection previously does that mean you now have built up a resistance towards getting infections in the future ??


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## Gadget

pulled this up on Google. I don't know which test they did on me first, maybe it was the "Blot Test" they talk about below, but like Matt said I've read it can by highly inaccurate.






> Lyme disease antibody tests are used to help diagnose Lyme disease.
> 
> *How the Test is Performed*
> 
> A blood sample is needed. For information on how this is done.
> A laboratory specialist will look for Lyme disease antibodies in the blood sample using the test. If the ELISA test is positive, it must be confirmed with the Western blot test.
> 
> *Why the Test is Performed*
> 
> The test is performed to help confirm the diagnosis of Lyme disease.
> *Normal Results*
> 
> A  negative test result is normal. This means none or few antibodies to  Lyme disease were seen in your blood sample. If the ELISA test is  negative, usually no other testing is needed.
> Normal value ranges  may vary slightly among different laboratories. Talk to your doctor  about the meaning of your specific test results.
> The examples  above show the common measurements for results for these tests. Some  laboratories use different measurements or may test different specimens.
> *What Abnormal Results Mean*
> 
> A  positive ELISA result is abnormal. This means antibodies were seen in  your blood sample. However, this does not confirm a diagnosis of Lyme  disease. A positive ELISA result must be followed up with a Western blot  test. Only a positive Western blot test can confirm the diagnosis of  Lyme disease.
> For many people, the ELISA test remains positive even after they have been treated for Lyme disease and no longer have symptoms.
> A positive ELISA may also occur with certain diseases, such as rheumatoid arthritis.


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## Gadget

Here's some more info for the CDC




> *Laboratory Testing*
> 
> Laboratory testing can be an important aid in the diagnosis of Lyme  disease. Proper use and interpretation of laboratory tests requires an  understanding of the type of test, the stage of illness, and the  underlying likelihood that the patient has the disease.
> Like blood tests for many other infectious diseases, the test for  Lyme disease measures antibodies made by white blood cells in response  to infection. It can take several weeks after infection for the body to  produce sufficient antibodies to be detected. Therefore, patients tested  during the first few weeks of illness will often test negative. In  contrast, patients who have had Lyme disease for longer than 4-6 weeks,  especially those with later stages of illness involving the brain or the  joints, will almost always test positive. A patient who has been ill  for months or years and has a negative test almost certainly does not  have Lyme disease as the cause of their symptoms.
> Because all laboratory tests can sometimes give falsely positive  results, it is important when faced with a positive result to consider  the underlying likelihood that a patient has the disease. If a patient  has not been in an area where Lyme disease is common or their symptoms  are atypical, positive results are more likely to be false positives.  Similarly, if a patient is tested numerous times and only rarely tests  positive, it is likely that the positive result is a false positive.
> Several laboratories offer "in-house" testing for Lyme disease using  their own assays or testing criteria. Such in-house assays do not  require evaluation or approval by the Food and Drug Administration.  Because of the potential for misleading results, CDC and FDA recommend  against using in-house assays whose accuracy and clinical usefulness  have not been adequately validated and published in the peer-reviewed  scientific literature. Ask your care provider about the validation of  the tests being used.


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## Bow Only

Rick, we should not rely on the CDC for information on Lyme disease or testing for it.  They have been proven incorrect and refuse to modify their guidelines.  I'll post more tonight when I'm not on my phone.


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## Gadget

Bow Only said:


> Rick, we should not rely on the CDC for information on Lyme disease or testing for it.  They have been proven incorrect and refuse to modify their guidelines.  I'll post more tonight when I'm not on my phone.




I could see why the ELISA test would not be good for people with recent infections based on the info above, but it seems to have worked in my favor, particularly because my infection had gone for some time.


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## Bow Only

Gadget said:


> I could see why the ELISA test would not be good for people with recent infections based on the info above, but it seems to have worked in my favor, particularly because my infection had gone for some time.



It's still too unreliable.  The people that show up positive can get treatment but that treatment is often inadequate because of the guidelines.  The people that are negative are told they don't have and can't have Lyme Disease.  They end up with Fibromyalgia and a lot of other issues.

Tests for Lyme:
Western Blot - False negative approximately 50% of the time.  It was never intended to be used as a Lyme test.

ELISA - even less accurate for the Southern variants of Borrelia infections

CD57 - This test isn't a Lyme Test, but patients that have Lyme Disease almost always have a depressed CD57 count.  It's something to read about to discuss with your physician if you are not currently going to a Lyme Literate 
Physician

ISpotLyme - A new test less than a month old that uses T-cells to determine if Borrelia is present.  It's supposed to be more accurate but I haven't heard much feedback on it. It's another one to read up on.  

There are PCR, FISH assays, and other tests used to determine if Borrelia is present.  None are great, but a knowledgeable physician can diagnose you clinically without a test.  The problem is most physicians aren't knowledgeable about Lyme or it's co-infections.   They aren't taught about it in school and what is taught isn't correct.


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## Bow Only

A couple examples of the problems facing the treatment of Lyme and it's co-infections.

In order to treat a medical condition, there must be literature to support the treatment.  Without proper literature, the physicians can be cited for treating outside the guidelines for proper medical treatment.  Just Google Dr. Joseph Jemsek to get an example of what the medical boards will do.  

Here is the kicker, the drug companies rule the medical journals and won't let any pertinent literature get published.  To get published, you must have all your ducks in a row and be able to prove your claims.  This has been done numerous times and the medical journals still will not publish the literature.  Their reasoning...................too much public outcry.  For examples, Google Dr Stephen Fry and Protomyxzoa Rheumatica or look up Dr Alan Macdonald on Youtube.  Both of these brilliant physicians have ground breaking information that should have been published and adopted but were refused publication.  It is appalling that our government allows this to happen and we the people must continue to suffer.


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## Gadget

Bow Only said:


> A couple examples of the problems facing the treatment of Lyme and it's co-infections.
> 
> In order to treat a medical condition, there must be literature to support the treatment.  Without proper literature, the physicians can be cited for treating outside the guidelines for proper medical treatment.  Just Google Dr. Joseph Jemsek to get an example of what the medical boards will do.
> 
> Here is the kicker, the drug companies rule the medical journals and won't let any pertinent literature get published.  To get published, you must have all your ducks in a row and be able to prove your claims.  This has been done numerous times and the medical journals still will not publish the literature.  Their reasoning...................too much public outcry.  For examples, Google Dr Stephen Fry and Protomyxzoa Rheumatica or look up Dr Alan Macdonald on Youtube.  Both of these brilliant physicians have ground breaking information that should have been published and adopted but were refused publication.  It is appalling that our government allows this to happen and we the people must continue to suffer.




Excellent info Matt.

It's sad how the government is run by lobbyists, and the drug companies are one of the biggest!
Lately Lyme has been getting more attention in the media than I've ever seen before, maybe that will help make a change...


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## jbird1

Rick,

What doxy dosage/duration did you ask for?


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## Bow Only

Some info on Doxycycline:

Doxy is and has been the drug of choice for Lyme Disease prevention and early onset Lyme Disease.  It is what helped me with my first bout of Lyme.  The usual dosage is 100mg twice a day.  Even though this works for many, it doesn't work for others.  It depends on what stage of Lyme you have.

In the early stages of Lyme Disease, the Borrelia bacteria doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier.  The blood-brain barrier is a compartment so to speak.  It's separate from the rest of the body and encompasses the brain and spinal column.  It "protects" the brain from most pathogens.  Borrelia do cross the blood-brain barrier and there is debate on how long this takes.  Once Borrelia is in the brain, a condition called neuroborreliosis occurs.  Some consider this a later stage of Lyme disease but I believe it can be an early stage.  

The problem with Doxycycline is that it doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier.  Any bacteria that have crossed the barrier are protected and will not be killed by Doxycycline.  That is why many Lyme physicians use Minocycline.  It crosses the blood-brain barrier.  But Minocycline isn't the cure all either.  The Borrelia bacteria can exist in 5 known forms.  In order for a drug to kill the bacteria, it must enter the bacteria.  The spirochete form of the bacteria is easily penetrated and killed, but the other forms are so easily penetrated.  The most common other forms are the "L" form or the round or cystic forms.  These are dormant forms of the bacteria and are not often destroyed by antibiotics.  The bacteria lies dormant as a survival mechanism.   Another survival trait that causes treatment problems is the formation of biofilms.  A Youtube search for biofilm formation will give you a good example of what biofilms are and the difficulty in treating them.  It's a six minute montage.


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## jbird1

Bow Only said:


> Some info on Doxycycline:
> 
> Doxy is and has been the drug of choice for Lyme Disease prevention and early onset Lyme Disease.  It is what helped me with my first bout of Lyme.  The usual dosage is 100mg twice a day.  Even though this works for many, it doesn't work for others.  It depends on what stage of Lyme you have.
> 
> In the early stages of Lyme Disease, the Borrelia bacteria doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier.  The blood-brain barrier is a compartment so to speak.  It's separate from the rest of the body and encompasses the brain and spinal column.  It "protects" the brain from most pathogens.  Borrelia do cross the blood-brain barrier and there is debate on how long this takes.  Once Borrelia is in the brain, a condition called neuroborreliosis occurs.  Some consider this a later stage of Lyme disease but I believe it can be an early stage.
> 
> The problem with Doxycycline is that it doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier.  Any bacteria that have crossed the barrier are protected and will not be killed by Doxycycline.  That is why many Lyme physicians use Minocycline.  It crosses the blood-brain barrier.  But Minocycline isn't the cure all either.  The Borrelia bacteria can exist in 5 known forms.  In order for a drug to kill the bacteria, it must enter the bacteria.  The spirochete form of the bacteria is easily penetrated and killed, but the other forms are so easily penetrated.  The most common other forms are the "L" form or the round or cystic forms.  These are dormant forms of the bacteria and are not often destroyed by antibiotics.  The bacteria lies dormant as a survival mechanism.   Another survival trait that causes treatment problems is the formation of biofilms.  A Youtube search for biofilm formation will give you a good example of what biofilms are and the difficulty in treating them.  It's a six minute montage.



Wow, great insight.  Is there really any way to "kill" the infection with the right meds once it has reached the late stage or do you just mange it at that point?  What a shame there aren't any LLMD's that are local.  It would seem that any infectious disease specialists would be constrained by CDC guidelines and therefore unable to adequately treat the infection.


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## Gadget

jbird1 said:


> Rick,
> 
> What doxy dosage/duration did you ask for?




Because mine went untreated for some time and I had more advanced symptoms it took three rounds of antibiotics. The first round they gave me something else for the usual 10days, maybe amoxicillian; on my next visit to the doctor is when I basically self diagnosed and suggest I had lyme, they then did I think 30 days of Docxy. During this time things were actually still getting worse, I developed the Bell's Palsy, was having joint pain, nerve pain, problems concentrating, etc. They then put me on Prednisone, month or two of that, then another cycle of Doxy; might have been 60days. 

As Matt indicated, my Lyme was advanced and caused a lot more problems than the average case. I still feel I've never recovered fully, it left me with some mild nerve and joint problems which are probably permanent at this point. One thing is I developed knee pain and problems during this time, which I never had before. I'm actually scheduled for knee surgery next Thursday.


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## jbird1

Gadget said:


> Because mine went untreated for some time and I had more advanced symptoms it took three rounds of antibiotics. The first round they gave me something else for the usual 10days, maybe amoxicillian; on my next visit to the doctor is when I basically self diagnosed and suggest I had lyme, they then did I think 30 days of Docxy. During this time things were actually still getting worse, I developed the Bell's Palsy, was having joint pain, nerve pain, problems concentrating, etc. They then put me on Prednisone, month or two of that, then another cycle of Doxy; might have been 60days.
> 
> As Matt indicated, my Lyme was advanced and caused a lot more problems than the average case. I still feel I've never recovered fully, it left me with some mild nerve and joint problems which are probably permanent at this point. One thing is I developed knee pain and problems during this time, which I never had before. I'm actually scheduled for knee surgery next Thursday.



My major issues are really bad tinnitus (seems like it's coming from my brain more than my ears) and my eyesight is getting worse.  My wife says it's due to too many concussions on the gridiron but I am beginning to think more along the lines of Lyme.  I am also having joint issues (hip, shoulders, elbows.) and the head fogginess and concentration issues.   

Good luck with your surgery and keep us posted on your recovery.


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## Bow Only

jbird1 said:


> Wow, great insight.  Is there really any way to "kill" the infection with the right meds once it has reached the late stage or do you just mange it at that point?  What a shame there aren't any LLMD's that are local.  It would seem that any infectious disease specialists would be constrained by CDC guidelines and therefore unable to adequately treat the infection.



After the disease gets to the advanced stages, it can not be killed by antibiotics IMO.  That is not saying you can't live a normal life.  I would bet a lot of money that over half of the adults here in the South have the Borrelia bacteria. That doesn't mean they have Lyme Disease.  Some individuals have enough immune response to suppress the symptoms caused by the bacteria.  Nutrition and genetics play a big role in this.


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## jbird1

Bow Only said:


> After the disease gets to the advanced stages, it can not be killed by antibiotics IMO.  That is not saying you can't live a normal life.  I would bet a lot of money that over half of the adults here in the South have the Borrelia bacteria. That doesn't mean they have Lyme Disease.  Some individuals have enough immune response to suppress the symptoms caused by the bacteria.  Nutrition and genetics play a big role in this.



That's very interesting that you mention genetics.  My father who is in his mid-70's, claims to have inherited Fibromyalgia and dealt with it since his 20's.  This is one of the conditions LD mimics so he could just as easily have LD.


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## Bow Only

jbird1 said:


> That's very interesting that you mention genetics.  My father who is in his mid-70's, claims to have inherited Fibromyalgia and dealt with it since his 20's.  This is one of the conditions LD mimics so he could just as easily have LD.



Correct.  Fibromyalgia is just a symptom with unknown origin.  It's caused by a vector borne disease IMO.  Ringing of the ears and taste/smell alterations are also common symptoms of VBD.  Syphilis has been called the "Great Imitator" because it's symptoms can mimic any disease.  Borrelia infection is exactly the same.  They're both spirochetes.  

Borrelia has been shown to be able to be transmitted from the mother to a child during pregnancy.  It, and babesia, have been isolated in semen.  This leaves the door open for sexual transmission.  It would be more likely to be transmitted from male to female than vise versa.   I would not expect this to be a high rate of transmission, but I believe it happens.


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## Bow Only

For anyone who wants a great source of information on Borrelia infection or health in general, Youtube Dr. Thomas Rau.  He has multiple lectures that are very educational.  They're over an hour each, but his approach is the best I've seen.  

If you want better health, I would suggest reading about Dr. Terry Wahls and her diet.  Dr. Joel Fuhrman's book Super Immunity is an interesting read.  Anyone with cancer would benefit from reading it.


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## Gadget

jbird1 said:


> That's very interesting that you mention genetics.  My father who is in his mid-70's, claims to have inherited Fibromyalgia and dealt with it since his 20's.  This is one of the conditions LD mimics so he could just as easily have LD.




Fibromyalgia has been one of my main problems, several symptoms fall under FM, fatigue, sleep, memory, mood, pain, I have all of them. Although it's gotten much better, like I said earlier, I've never felt the same since and at this point I don't think I ever will.

When I had the Bell's Palsy, it lasted for 4 months, I have a small amount of residual nerve damage in my face, my smile is not the same as it used to be. During that time I lost my eye sight, taste, feeling. I couldn't even tell hot from cold.


Another thing is I believe I've had two infections not one; a year or two before this I was sick for about 4-5 months. I went to the doctor several times and took several rounds of different antibiotics, it would get better then come back. I believe this was LD or RMSF and it went undiagnosed and not treated properly. LD was never even mentioned by my doctor.


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## jbird1

Gadget said:


> Fibromyalgia has been one of my main problems, several symptoms fall under FM, fatigue, sleep, memory, mood, pain, I have all of them. Although it's gotten much better, like I said earlier, I've never felt the same since and at this point I don't think I ever will.
> 
> When I had the Bell's Palsy, it lasted for 4 months, I have a small amount of residual nerve damage in my face, my smile is not the same as it used to be. During that time I lost my eye sight, taste, feeling. I couldn't even tell hot from cold.
> 
> 
> Another thing is I believe I've had two infections not one; a year or two before this I was sick for about 4-5 months. I went to the doctor several times and took several rounds of different antibiotics, it would get better then come back. I believe this was LD or RMSF and it went undiagnosed and not treated properly. LD was never even mentioned by my doctor.



Since I've been researching LD the past few days, it seems co-infection with LD is not the exception but more likely the rule.  I agree, you most likely had multiple infections as there are a myriad of other suspects...each with it's own symptoms and requiring different treatment methods.  Igenex has a co-infection test 5095 that looks for several other infection sources besides Borrelia.


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## jbird1

Bow Only said:


> Borrelia has been shown to be able to be transmitted from the mother to a child during pregnancy.  It, and babesia, have been isolated in semen.  This leaves the door open for sexual transmission.  It would be more likely to be transmitted from male to female than vise versa.   I would not expect this to be a high rate of transmission, but I believe it happens.



This evidence goes a long way towards explaining the significant incidence of infection cases whereby the patient has no recollection of ever being bitten by a tick...very interesting.


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## Bow Only

This is probably what I have.  I have isolated these in my own blood cultures but without diagnostic testing, I can not ascertain if what type of piroplasm I have.  It did respond well to anti-protozoal medications and to anti-malarial Chinese herbs.  I, however, remain infected.  If it were just Babesia, I believe I would be cured by now.

http://protomyxzoa.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Protozoal-Infection-Dr-Frye-Interview.pdf


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## Bow Only

Out of an entire drop of blood, I could only find a few of these protozoas.  They are the small round bumps attached to the RBC's near the center of the picture.  The arrow may point to another.


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## Gadget

wow you really have done your research.!


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## jbird1

Bow Only said:


> This is probably what I have.  I have isolated these in my own blood cultures but without diagnostic testing, I can not ascertain if what type of piroplasm I have.  It did respond well to anti-protozoal medications and to anti-malarial Chinese herbs.  I, however, remain infected.  If it were just Babesia, I believe I would be cured by now.
> 
> http://protomyxzoa.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Protozoal-Infection-Dr-Frye-Interview.pdf



Thanks for posting this and what food for thought.  With a family history including several autoimmune diseases like CFS and ALS, this information could be life altering.  It is interesting to note that I believe I have experienced the  Jarisch-Herxheimer  reaction before when experimenting with a whole food, plant based diet.  And as in Rick's case, he experienced a flare in symptoms upon commencement of his antibiotic treatment.  Now that I know that this is most likely typical, it can be easier to mentally cope with the reaction and fight through it with knowledge that one is actually getting through the biofilm and/or depriving the organism.

Even though you are still infected, have you been able to mitigate your symptoms to the point of remission through the techniques described in the interview?


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## Bow Only

I can lessen all symptoms but insomnia, brain fog (I'm just slowly slipping mentally), and increased CO2 upon exertion.  No one would even know I have a problem just looking at me.


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## jbird1

Bow Only said:


> I can lessen all symptoms but insomnia, brain fog (I'm just slowly slipping mentally), and increased CO2 upon exertion.  No one would even know I have a problem just looking at me.



Now I understand the 3am posts.  I think I'm going to get the Igenex Complete Lyme panel 6050 and the Complete Co infection panel 5095 for some peace of mind.  I am unsure if this would include protomyxzoa or not but it's a good place to start.  With my family history and current symptoms, it couldn't hurt.  If anything comes up, there is an infectious disease specialist in my area that specializes in LD.  I assume that would mean LLMD but I'm not sure.


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## Bow Only

jbird1 said:


> Now I understand the 3am posts.  I think I'm going to get the Igenex Complete Lyme panel 6050 and the Complete Co infection panel 5095 for some peace of mind.  I am unsure if this would include protomyxzoa or not but it's a good place to start.  With my family history and current symptoms, it couldn't hurt.  If anything comes up, there is an infectious disease specialist in my area that specializes in LD.  I assume that would mean LLMD but I'm not sure.



I feel it is a waste of time to get those tests run because of the high false negative rates.  You would be better off getting the new ISpotLyme test.  Its more accurate.  Infectious disease physicians are not trained properly to treat Lyme or any other VBD.   There are no LLMD's in GA and only 1 in AL.  Science doesn't even acknowledge that Protomyxzoa Rheu. even exists.  The only test for it is done in AZ.


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## jbird1

Bow Only said:


> I feel it is a waste of time to get those tests run because of the high false negative rates.  You would be better off getting the new ISpotLyme test.  Its more accurate.  Infectious disease physicians are not trained properly to treat Lyme or any other VBD.   There are no LLMD's in GA and only 1 in AL.  Science doesn't even acknowledge that Protomyxzoa Rheu. even exists.  The only test for it is done in AZ.



Oh wow, ok.  I had been on a few Lyme forums and it seemed that the Igenex lab was the "gold standard" as far as LD testing.  In particular, the Igenex  28 band western blot will  often come up positive where the standard 10 band western blot would not.  That could have been dated information however.  I'm still waiting on Pharmason labs to get back to me about the ispotlyme testing.


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## Bow Only

Almost everyone who eats the typical "American" food needs to take a probiotic.  People with VBD even have more problems with their immune system and will benefit even more.

If you have depression, you need to take a probiotic.
If you have intestinal problems, GERD, or any acid issues, you should take a probiotic.
If you have migraines, you should take a probiotic.
If you have thyroid issues, take a probiotic.

I recommend rotating probiotics every 4 to 6 weeks to increase the diversity of bacteria introduced.  Florajen3 is a good one to start with.  Then go to Ortho Biotic and back to Florajen3.  Then add in a bacillus containing probiotic.  Buy high bacterial count products that have to be refrigerated.


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## Bow Only

A few tips for those wanting to achieve long term health.  This applies to both uninfected and Borrelia infected people.

1. Don't drink milk or eat dairy products.  Milk is for cows and the casein protein is difficult to assimilate for many people.   It's the number one allergen in the world.  Multiple credible studies have shown that the casein protein increases cancer growth.  You may show no problems from drinking milk, but that doesn't mean the bacterial flora of your GI tract isn't negatively influenced.  GI bacterial concentrations can change rapidly and IMO, milk is detrimental to your immune response.  

2.  Eat less meat.  Protein contains nitrogen and your body requires more water to eliminate that nitrogen.  When meat is eaten at every meal like it is in America, the concentration of GI bacteria changes and higher concentrations of nitrogen assimilating bacteria are present.  These higher concentrations are not conducive to a higher immune response.  For best results, I've seen eating meat once or twice a week to be best.  If you don't agree with this, study polyamine biosynthesis problems.  This is what happens in the "perfect storm" of acidity and depleted immune response.  Polyamines, IMO, are the key to all long term health issues.  They directly effect transcription and translation of DNA as well as control cellular K, Na, and Ca ion channels.   And act directly in immune response.  Methylation pathway obstruction leads to polyamine problems.  

3.  If it has more than 5 ingredients in it, don't eat it.  And drink water with lemon.  This is so difficult in America and requires proper planning ahead of time.


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## Bow Only

Not much happening on this thread lately, so I thought I'd give you all some good things to watch.  Search Dr Thomas Rau on Youtube and watch all of his videos.  They are all helpful if you are trying to achieve a healthy, long life.


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## Bow Only

Here are my thoughts, and once again, just my opinion based on research and observation.  I feel that pathogens evolved over the millennia to live as symbiots with humans, not to cause harm.  If they cause harm, they die too.  So the pathogens could be a situation similar to Sickle Cell Trait where a mutation prevents Sickle Cell Anemia and allows the person to live and reproduce.  Perhaps the bacteria evolved to accumulate metals to protect themselves against our immune response?  This would keep them alive long enough to reproduce but in the long run, it would cause problems for the host.  My case in point, many people that suffer from MS, ALS, Lyme, or the other VBD have methylation or transsulfuration pathway obstructions.  We know these pathways have a lot of genetic influence but they are also blocked by metals.  I'm not saying heavy metals because aluminum is important too.  Lead, mercury, cadmium, cesium, thallium, nickel, and arsenic are just a few of the heavy metals that could plague our system.  I have a protozoal infection but perhaps I have accumulated metal because of it.  Research has shown that modified citrus pectin binds the Galectin-3 receptor and decreases inflammation and cancer metastasis.  It also increases the elimination of metals from the body.  With this in mind, I started taking Pectasol-C.  It's a modified citrus pectin powder.  In the week that I've been taking it, the past two nights I've slept 6 hours one night and 7 hours the next night.  We're in uncharted waters here.  I did eat a few foods that were nathpthoquinone derivatives and they do kill my protozoans, but 7 hours is really good.  I'll continue the Pectasol-C for 6 months as the studies show a maximum increase in metal excretion around the 5 to 6 month mark.  Right now, it's pricey at $80 a month but when I go to maintenance dosing next month, it will cost only 1/3 of that.  It's something for those of you that are suffering to think about.  If you can't get rid of the bacteria, get rid of whatever you can.  It may make a difference.


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## Gadget

Thanks for the info..... interesting.


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## Bow Only

I just received my 23andme raw test data.  The results were not what I wanted to see and my continued effort to rid myself of my pathogen will be an uphill battle.  I had 10 mutated SNP's with 4 heterozygous mutations.  They are spread through the cycles so it's a pretty big blow.  Today is not a good day.


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## Bow Only

Here is a mini experiment if you want to try it.  For a couple of days, decrease your fat intake to only 25 grams per day.  You need to increase your protein and carb intake to compensate for the decrease in calories that will occur.  The goal is to eat the same number of calories per day that you usually eat but with limited fat grams.  IMO, if you do this and feel terrible, it is a sign that you have a protozoal infection.


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## Gadget

Bow Only said:


> Here is a mini experiment if you want to try it.  For a couple of days, decrease your fat intake to only 25 grams per day.  You need to increase your protein and carb intake to compensate for the decrease in calories that will occur.  The goal is to eat the same number of calories per day that you usually eat but with limited fat grams.  IMO, if you do this and feel terrible, it is a sign that you have a protozoal infection.



that's a indicator huh. It's been hard enough for me on a low carb diet, 25g of fat isn't much at all.


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## Bow Only

Here is something to think about.  We have almost 25,000 human genes in our body.  We have over 1,000,000 genes from bacteria and viruses.  We are only 10% human and 90% bacteria and viruses.  So when we go to treat a health condition, wouldn't it be prudent to treat the 90% and not the 10%?  This is why our bacterial flora is so important.  Poor health is a combination of our microbiome, our genetics, and our nutritional deficiencies.  Our microbiome can directly affect our genetics and our nutritional deficiencies.  I've made huge strides in my own health by finding these nutritional deficiencies and addressing them.


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## NOYDB

latest from the CDC

https://cosmosmagazine.com/biology/cures-deemed-worse-than-misdiagnosed-chronic-lyme-disease

No comments section at time of post.


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## Bow Only

I trust the CDC about as much as I trust Lorretta Lynch, but they are correct about some of the chronic treatments for prolonged Lyme.  To say chronic Lyme doesn't exist is a complete travesty.  Have they ever heard of MSIDS?  Politics have taken control of Lyme treatment and its a shame that Lyme patients aren't allowed adequate treatment and insurance coverage.  I guess they want the chronic sufferers to just quit treating and then what?


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## Bow Only

There hasn't been much added to this lately so I thought I'd post my most recent findings.  
IMO, Lyme Disease is caused by toxins and nutrient deficiency.  This causes phylum-level changes in the microbiota, reduced bacterial diversity and altered representation of bacterial genes and metabolic pathways.  Simply put, it alters your GI bacteria.  We see the same thing in obesity, in meat eaters, and other unhealthy disease states.  So when you have Lyme, you must also deal with other bacteria or pathogens.  Candida is one but there are many.  Antibiotics can help, but they aren't the answer.  The answer is to get your GI bacteria back to a healthy assortment.  That can be challenging depending on what pathogens are involved.


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