# Muzzleloading Rookies



## Desert Rat (Nov 26, 2011)

Maybe we can help each other out here, with occasional advice from the experts. Doesn't much matter if you're a rock basher, or poppin' caps, long gun or pocket gun, single shot or revolver, it pretty much all works the same way: powder, wadding, ball, primer. (Conicals and sabots will come later.)
If you done it right, ya get smoke. That and a properly placed hole somewhere down range.
I'm not new to muzzleloading, just new to owning one. I bought mine at a pawn shop knowing it hadn't been cared for correctly. The previous owner used petroleum based bore cleaner and oil. I'm guessing he also didn't know you should give the barrel a bath in hot soapy water. I had a tar build-up problem. With a lot of cleaning and shooting with a "loose" greased patch, TC Bore Butter, this gun is coming around. Today I moved to a thicker patch.
Shooting round ball really requires a fairly tight fit with the wadding or patch. It's the patch that really takes the rifling. So, for me to move from .010 thickness patches to .018 thickness is a big deal. I got a noticeable improvement in accuracy.
I started off using Goex FFg black powder. I really like the way it ignites. It's almost like a cartrige gun. The down side is that it wasn't helping with the other problems this gun has, so I switched to Pyrodex RS. I do have a local expert that I check with before I make changes. I tell him what I want to do and why, he keeps from blowing myself up. Anyway, the Pyrodex is slower lighting than the Goex, but I don't have the fouling problem I was having with the Goex.
So after about a month and a half, that's where I am. Today I sent 7 shots down range and for the first time I haven't had to pull a ball. I did also discover that TCA cap locks don't like CVA nipples. You can get the set screw too deep and block the hole in the nipple.
Just for reference, I'm using a TC Hawken .45 cal, Hornady 440 balls, I assume about 127 grain, with 60 grains of powder. I did use 80 grains of powder for a 100 yard shot just for giggles. I was on center and low 3".


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## Lorren68 (Nov 27, 2011)

I shoot a T/C Hawken .50 cal and I love it.  I have used 777, pyrodex, and Goex bp, I prefer the goex bp FFFg.  I am able to load and shoot multiple times without wiping, and if target practicing on the range with a spit patch I can go the whole session without wiping.  I give mine the warm soap and water plunger bath and dry and oil after every shooting session.  I dont get why people think they are a pain to clean, I can clean my ml as quick as my center fire guns and I dont have to use stinky bore cleaners.   I have a friend (Mike Markey) who builds flintlocks, we get together pretty often for a range trip to burn some powder.  I have a blast shooting my t/c and to top it off I get to shoot his high dollar flintlock (Which by the way is highly addictive and I WANT ONE)

Desert Rat where are you located?  We could always use another in our group.


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## Desert Rat (Nov 27, 2011)

I'm in Carrollton. Lately I'vbe been shooting at the WMA range at West Point. I'm usually game for something different. I also just set up a 30 yard archery range in the back yard. Makes it a lot more convenient for launching sticks.
A few of us have been talking about getting together and cleaning up the range. I'll have to talk to the district 4 folks about it. I'm sure we'll have a good time.


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## Lorren68 (Nov 27, 2011)

Just my luck you are a long ways from me lol.  We shoot at the Cohutta WMA range.    I shoot traditional bows (I have 6 right now) The TBG has a shoot every year a few miles from my house, you talk about fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Flintrock (Nov 28, 2011)

There is a range in Griffin if your interested in some competition .They normally  shoot the first Sunday of the month. 25, 50 and 100 yards. Most all offhand ( no resting). You will shoot about 25-30 scoring  shots . Its a little over an hour to get there from Carrollton.


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## Bernard goldsmith (Nov 28, 2011)

*Ranges*

You might want to contact Billy Townsend at 770-977-0766. I think they have shut down for Dec.


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## Desert Rat (Nov 28, 2011)

Lorren68 said:


> Just my luck you are a long ways from me lol.  We shoot at the Cohutta WMA range.    I shoot traditional bows (I have 6 right now) The TBG has a shoot every year a few miles from my house, you talk about fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!



By my standards, Fairmount is just around the corner. I'm sure we've been through there on the motocycle. We've been bass huntin' at Alatoona a couple of times. Doesn't seem too conducive to bank fishing.
I'm always open to invites for riding, shooting, arrow launching, fishing and grilling.
My bow doesn't quite fit the "traditional" mold, but it is a bare recurve.

I've been to Griffin a few times. Having been born, or hatched, just a few miles from Tombstone, I couldn't resist the Doc Holliday Museum.

I bet I could come up with a saddle holster for the Hawken and/or the bow that would fit my sissy bar. A Hawken on a Harley V-rod. What an anachronistic disaster.


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## Desert Rat (Nov 28, 2011)

Flintrock said:


> There is a range in Griffin if your interested in some competition .They normally  shoot the first Sunday of the month. 25, 50 and 100 yards. Most all offhand ( no resting). You will shoot about 25-30 scoring  shots . Its a little over an hour to get there from Carrollton.



Depending on the weather, I'm planning on shooting offhand at West Point this weekend.


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## _BuckMaster_ (Dec 1, 2011)

well i'm brand new  just bought a muzzle loader and know nothing so every little bit helps me  thanks


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## Desert Rat (Dec 1, 2011)

All I can tell you is "Beware the crud ring". Seems to be a situation with in-lines.


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## Lorren68 (Dec 2, 2011)

Desert Rat said:


> By my standards, Fairmount is just around the corner. I'm sure we've been through there on the motocycle. We've been bass huntin' at Alatoona a couple of times. Doesn't seem too conducive to bank fishing.
> I'm always open to invites for riding, shooting, arrow launching, fishing and grilling.
> My bow doesn't quite fit the "traditional" mold, but it is a bare recurve.
> 
> ...



A bare recurve  is close enough as long as the bow dont have training wheels.   We could probably try and get together for some muzzleloader shooting after deer season, I have a couple of friends who shoot trad muzzleloaders that would probably join us.


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## Desert Rat (Dec 2, 2011)

Just a PSE Impala with a couple of strings from BK (he did me right) and a TC Hawken 45 with iron optics.


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## Lorren68 (Dec 2, 2011)

Desert Rat said:


> Just a PSE Impala with a couple of strings from BK (he did me right) and a TC Hawken 45 with iron optics.



Well I have 5 tradiional bows and a T/C Hawken .50 cal muzzleloader, so we should be good to go.


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## Desert Rat (Dec 5, 2011)

We also have an original Ben Pearson Stratojet 45#. My son is currently using it.

I finally got a tight group out of the Hawken yesterday down at West Point. 9 shots on the taget, including a standing shot, with 4 in the center ring. Din't get the "X", but got close. 10th ball split a 2X4 somebody had been using for a taget holder.

Spent Saturday drooling M1s and Model of 1917s.


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## Lorren68 (Dec 5, 2011)

If you want to drool go to Track of the wolf .com and look at the gun built by M. Markey!!!!  Man it is a beautyful flintlock, I got to drool over it and hold it before he sent it to them.


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## Desert Rat (Dec 17, 2011)

I've been down with the flu. Can't even draw the bow, let alone hold up the Hawkens. Next weekend will be a bit different with two blackpowder guns on the range; a long one and a short one.


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## miles58 (Dec 18, 2011)

Things I have learned that may be of use to some of you.

If you use an inline, there is no reason on earth to buy anything other than standard 209 primers.  They will light all powders well and unlike primers made for specific powders, the will not create slow ignition nor failure to ignite.

There is no law against mixing and matching bullets and sabots to make loading easier.  The worst that happens is you may wind up with a little bit less accuracy, but I have never seen it decrease to the point that you couldn't adjust the load a little bit to get it right back to an inch or so.

Black horn 209 is a nice clean powder that tends to allow you to shoot several times without swabbing between shots.

Dyna Bore Coat will reduce fouling and eliminate the crud ring BH209 it has allowed me to leave my little squeeze bottle of windshield washer fluid and my swab patches behind when I hunt.

Spark plug anti-seize compound with moly in it will virtually eliminate breech plugs seizing.  Far better that any grease or oil.

The little tubes your doctor uses for blood samples are better than any purpose made loading tubes.  Mine are graduated and hold up to 14 CCs of powder, or, a couple bullets and a few primers.  (The load I shoot uses 7 CCs of BH-209.  I can drop 4 tubes in my pocket and have everything I need for 3-4 shots.  I do not carry a starter anymore since I got the right sabots and started using BH209 in a Dyna Bore Coated barrel.  I don't need it.

.451 diameter pistol bullets allow you to practice a lot cheaper and don't change the point of impact much.

Dave


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## Lorren68 (Dec 18, 2011)

Miles58,  I shoot a T/C Hawken sidelock with a 1:48 twist barrel.  My current load is 70gr of Goex FFFg Black Powder, .490 diameter 174grain lead round ball, and a         .015 pillow ticking patch lubed with "Moose Snot" and cut at the muzzle.  I use standard #11 percussion caps to lite the fire.   With this load I am able to shoot 15 + times or more without cleaning/swabing he bore.   From the bench I am able to hold a 2-3 inch group at 50 yards.

I also have a CVA Hunter bolt magnum inline, I've had for 10 years, but never really put much time into it.  I am going to the range this friday,and I think I will take it and see what it will really do.


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## Desert Rat (Dec 20, 2011)

Monday we'll probably go down to West Point WMA range. Some other day next week maybe Charlie Elliot with a friend from Tucker.


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## Desert Rat (Dec 29, 2011)

We're going to be at the West Point WMA range tomorrow about noon for a couple of hours. My son gets to try out his Pietta 1858 New Army.


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## Desert Rat (Dec 30, 2011)

My son when through six cylinders on the .44. The pistol shoots true. Not sure why Pietta has the gun maxed at 15 grains of powder. Seems a bit low, even for a brass frame. We had to let the nipples get dirty so the #11 caps would stay on. He never cleaned it once at the range and, other than a dropped cap, never had a problem out of it.
We use "For Sale" sings in a wire frame from Lowes as our target holder. My son and our friend had a target set up at 10 yards for the two pistols, .44 Rem and .45 Judge. I had a target set up about 40 ~ 45 yards for my Hawken and our friend's .22. Just for kicks I took a shot, one handed, at the 40 yard target the second time I fired the pistol. I hit the For Sale sign with .454 round ball. I'm impressed.
The Buffalo Bullet Ball-ets seem really loose in the Hawken, but they were shooting fairly true. I might have to try some .010 patches under them. Overall, after just over two months, my barrel is finally coming in. One damp patch followed by two dry and a pipe cleaner in the flash hole through the set screw. I don't know if the pipe cleaner is necessary at this point, but I didn't have a single misfire today.

Almost forgot, last night we made a loading stand out of 1" pine for the Remington. I did all the cutting on the band saw except for rabbeting the ends on the router table (already set up from another project I did that left me the 1" pine scraps) and a rasp in the Dremel carved the notch for the hammer at 1/2 cock. Worked great for the first 36 rounds. Looks even better now with a little wear and gun oil on it.


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## tv_racin_fan (Dec 30, 2011)

Back in the day I had a brass framed open top revolver... as I recall the manual claimed 30 grains as max. I ruined that revolver running max loads or leaning on the loading lever like Grape Ape. With a brass framed 1858 I wouldn't hesitate to run heavier loads than the manual lists today but I dont think I would go over about 25 grains. I have run as much FFFg and Pyrodex as I could fit in the cylinder thru a steel framed 1858...the manual on my Ruger Old Army claims I can run as much FFFFg powder as I can fit in it.


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## Desert Rat (Dec 31, 2011)

We're using Pyrodex P. I couldn't find any FFFg in town.
My experience with the Hawken is Pyrodex comes up a bit short measured against Goex. I know Pyrodex needs more heat to light off. That tells me it's also burning slower. In my rifle I just feel Pyrodex is slower than Goex. We'll just have to try 20 grains in the pistol, eventually.
Looking at the Shoot -N- See targets, 15 grains is just pushing the paper out of the way, not "cutting" it. The "hanging chads" are even dimpled. Even the plastic on the signs we use for target holders shows a real difference. The .45 Hawken leaves a neat round hole. The .44 Army leaves a broken hole.


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## tv_racin_fan (Jan 1, 2012)

You will never get the same velocity out of that revolver you can your Hawken. There simply isn't enough room to burn all that powder.

Where did you find Pyrodex P??

I dunno why the newer manual lists 15 grains as the max. Perhaps it has something to do with the proof level of the barrel and cylinder. You using the felt wads or bare ball and grease over the top tp prevent chain fire?

Nearly everyone I have heard from says that 22 grains or so is their most accurate loading. I dunno if those guys are using a filler or not tho and I have not tried a filler as yet. (I just been shootin for fun and aint even worked on an accurate load)


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## Desert Rat (Jan 1, 2012)

Pyrodex P: Advanced Bullets, Highway 113 just south of Temple (or just up the road from me) 770-562-4333 or www.advancedbullets.com.
I'm not looking for rifle power out of a pistol. I don't think the cylinder is long enough to hold my standard 60 grains, let alone put a ball on top. Just seems the last Colt Navy I played with had a bit more punch.
We're using lubed felt wadding and .454 ball in a .44. The ball sits so far back we can't realisticly grease over it. He does get a good curl all the way around each ball when loading, so we know the ball is tight. Talking to other pistoleers that show up at West Point WMA, .454 round ball is great for .44s and .457 is what the .45s use. The .45 Buffalo ball-ets I just got are so loose in my rifle that I have no doubt we could use them in the .44. I doubt we would be impressed by the performance of a 200 grain bullet pushed by 15 grains of Pyrodex P. We'd probably just be better off throwing it by hand. 
We have plenty of room to experiment with powder loads. I just don't want a huge blow-out between the cylinder and barrel.


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## Desert Rat (Jan 7, 2012)

I went to Adventure Outdoors in Smyrna today. The smoke pole department is mighty thin. Our local WalMart has more supplies. Modern in-lines have some support. Sidelocks and pistols, don't bother. There is no roundball, only one size wadding .018 for 45/50 cal rifle.
I ended up with a flight of arrows, some cleaning patches and a box of .22LR. That's the only store I got out of today under $60.


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## SASS249 (Jan 7, 2012)

I shoot a steel frame 1858.  I load 28 grains of FFFG and a 454 round ball.  It chronographs at about 750 fps.  I load with one felt patch over the powder and to completely seat the ball in the cylinder have to compress the load slightly.

I've shot this revolver in cowboy matches and it easily takes down metallic targets calibrated to require at a minimum a hit from a 38 special.

I understand the concerns about a brass framed revolver, but as TV-racing fan said, I would not hesitate to use heavier loads.  I basically use as much powder as you can fit in the cylinder.

Question becomes would you rather shoot the real thing, or a pop-gun.  Unless you really shoot a lot I doubt you would ever cause a problem with that revolver using heavier loads.  Besides having them rip snort and belch fire is a hoot.


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## Desert Rat (Jan 9, 2012)

Thanks. That goes along with the load page from Bobby38. He has the same gun with a manual. His maanual says no more than 35 grains FFFg or 28 grains Pyrodex P. Tells me they are using weight, not volume.
Otherwise, it's a lot of fun. My wife even enjoys shooting it. The only problem is he's out of ammo. Two trips to trips to West Point WMA, 100 rounds down range.
Oh well. We had fun shooting spent shotgun shells with the .22 when we had the range to ourselves. Not to mention turning a 2X4 into kindling with the Hawken.


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## C.J. Pearson (Jan 13, 2012)

Lorren68, Mike does build some of the sweetest rifles you"ll ever shoot. I also have a TC Hawken and love it. I have aquired a couple of flinters and now that I am out of work will be sending more lead and burning more powder at the range. 
I made the mistake of shooting one of Mikes rifles and the addiction set in for the flint lock. I had shot cap for years and never had a desire to shoot the flint until I shot his.


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## Lorren68 (Jan 13, 2012)

C.J. Pearson said:


> Lorren68, Mike does build some of the sweetest rifles you"ll ever shoot. I also have a TC Hawken and love it. I have aquired a couple of flinters and now that I am out of work will be sending more lead and burning more powder at the range.
> I made the mistake of shooting one of Mikes rifles and the addiction set in for the flint lock. I had shot cap for years and never had a desire to shoot the flint until I shot his.



Mike is building a new flintlock for himself, and more to sell.  We have not been able to get to the range in about a month, but I hope we can in the next few weeks.  I hope to scroung up the funds to get my own flintlock in the near future.


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## Desert Rat (Jan 14, 2012)

After playing with son's 1858 Remington, I'm leaning toward a cap&ball pistol. It's crazy how accurate that gun is.


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## Lorren68 (Jan 14, 2012)

Desert Rat said:


> After playing with son's 1858 Remington, I'm leaning toward a cap&ball pistol. It's crazy how accurate that gun is.



I want one too, and a new flintlock rifle, a flintlock pistol, and a percussion pistol, and more black powder, more roundball.    Seriously I think I have a new disease called blackpowderitis or something.


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## Desert Rat (Jan 14, 2012)

Adventure Outdoors in Smyrna has a nice Colt Walker replica that I looked at. Seems like the price was reasonable, around $300 I think.
A flint pistol would be fun That's kind of how I got back into muzzle loaders. I was at a local pawnshop looking for something in particular, but I found some paper casts from a Santa Fe artist I know. I won't tell you how badly the pawn shop did on pricing these pictures. I stole them. 
Anyway, a couple of days later I remembered seeing a sidelock pistol kit. Anyway, they wanted $100 for it and through a comedy of errors, I missed it. I found the .45 Hawken in another pawnshop the day I found out I missed the kit.
I'm still bummed I didn't get the pirate pistol kit. It was one that could be built flint or percussion.


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## Lorren68 (Jan 14, 2012)

I am running dry on my bp gun finds, the last one I found was a T/C Hawken with leather case for $100.  I got that deal for a friend of mine.  I am not having much luck on my traditional bow finds either, I aint found a good deal in a few months now.   I must be slipping.


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## Desert Rat (Jan 15, 2012)

1898 Enfield .303 short fore stock $250?
My son is the Enfield fan, not me. Otherwise I would have bought it.
Not exactly bp, but still fun.


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## Desert Rat (Feb 7, 2012)

Sunday I sent three rounds down range 100 yards.
On the big ol' Shoot-N-See the first one was six o'clock in the 9 ring.
The next two were right above it in the 10 ring. I'm thinking two clicks up will put it in.




(The Garand was all over the 10 and and center.)


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## camodano (Feb 12, 2012)

*bow ranges*

i would like to take my son to a tournament are they year round and what is the closest to paulding county. thanks


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## flyfisher76544 (Feb 13, 2012)

Lorren68 said:


> Seriously I think I have a new disease called blackpowderitis or something.



Naaaaaaaw.........its just a bug!


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## Desert Rat (Feb 13, 2012)

camodano said:


> i would like to take my son to a tournament are they year round and what is the closest to paulding county. thanks



It looks like nothing is happening. The calendar ended two years ago. The black poweder shoot down by Columbus must be a monthly thing. You'd have to confirm that with Bernard Goldsmith. I missed the shoot yesterday. Too cold. I'm going to try for the 10th of next month.
This weekend my family will probably be down at the WMA West Point range. I have a couple of guns that still need to be sighted in. I still need to bring the Hawken up at 100 yards.


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## Flintrock (Feb 13, 2012)

camodano said:


> i would like to take my son to a tournament are they year round and what is the closest to paulding county. thanks



Griffin  is the 1st Sunday of the month 
Columbus is the 2nd Sunday.
Riverbend is the 3rd Sunday
Blueridge is the 4th Sunday
.
These are the closest to you.There are other clubs in the state and all over the country.
.
Most clubs will stop shooting once hunting season begins and will start back up in January.


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## Desert Rat (Feb 18, 2012)

I'm staying inside 3 inches at 100 yards using 70 grains of Pyrodex, 440 ball and .010 patches.
Since I pulled the CVA nipple and put in a TC nipple, my rifle has behaved much better. I think the CVA was too short and the set screw may have been partially blocking it.


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## Desert Rat (May 20, 2012)

My rifle is shooting a lot faster now. Using Pyrodex RS all I have to do between shots is run a dry patch down the barrel until the bore feels smooth. The patch doesn't even have to be clean.
They "Nay Sayers" can say what they want about Bore Butter, but it works for me. Once a month I give my barrel a bath in near boiling water, dry it with the air compressor and liberally swab it with Bore Butter while it's still hot.


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## mmarkey (May 21, 2012)

Hey Desert Rat, you need to go shooting with Lorren68 and me sometime. I'll give you the opportunity to shoot a flintlock. It'll give you an experience you may never recover from. Shooting Flintlock is a very contagious desease of which there is only one cure, your own flintlock.

On the cleaning issue, when I shoot, I almost never swab between shots. Only when it is very humid, and then not often. I clean with hot tap water (not boiling at all, boiling can cause flash rusting) with a couple of drops of dishwash. Two patches pumped through the bore with the barrel off the stock. Dump the water and plain hot tap water rinse, Two patches pumped through the bore. Then dry the bore with as many patches as it takes to get a clean smooth bore. I wipe the bore with WD-40 to remove any last trace of moisture. Wipe with a dry patch again Then I OIL the bore with Rem Oil, run a clean dry patch in the bore before you shoot to remove the oil and you're good to go. Been shooting Flintlocks since 1974 never had a problem with rust in the barrels.  For patch lube, recently I have tried "Hoppes 9 Plus" and I like that as a lube but I don't clean with it. I still like good old spit (saliva) for patch lube at the range as well. 

Don't have any problem with oil in the bore. (have no idea where that started. Herchel House a famous builder uses 30 weight motor oil in his barrels, but it's your choice)  Oil stops/prevents rust. I don't know what is in bore butter (animal fat?) but I wouldn't use it as a rust preventative. As a patch lube I might use it for a hunting patch lube, but I use Mink Oil whenever I do hunt which has been infrequent as of late. 

There is a lot of voodoo and hocus pocus about shooting these weapons. Just use common sense. Would you oil your modern weapons with animal fat?

Regarding synthetic black powder. It can be more corrosive than regular old black powder, and in some cases it won't work as well. Don't use it in a flintlock it may not even fire it requires hotter ignition than you get with a flash in the pan.

Good luck and please join us at the range some time.


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## Redleaf (May 21, 2012)

How smooth a bore is will determine how often it needs wiping.  I can shoot my rifles all day without wiping as long as I dont stop for more than five or ten minutes.  Then one moist patch will clean it good enough that an hour later it will load easy.  When I clean up,  I use water and some kind of cleaner like mean green or murphy's.  Dry the bore and oil with light machine oil.  If I know I'm not going to shoot it again for a couple of months,  I use break free.  The wax in bore butter will seal up the bore so no moisture can get to the metal.  You just need to be completely sure its dry before you use it.  Its possible to seal up some moisture under the bore butter and get rust under that layer of wax.


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## Desert Rat (May 21, 2012)

Redleaf said:


> Its possible to seal up some moisture under the bore butter and get rust under that layer of wax.



That's the reason for very hot water, with the nipple and set screw removed, and the air compressor set at 100 psi. I also run a dry patch through it to make sure it's dry.
I actually cleaned tar out of this barrel, meaning the original owner used petroleum based cleaners and oils.

Anyway, it's nice to be down to just a couple of minutes between shots instead of the 15 to 20 minutes it used to take. If I didn't take that long, I ended up pulling a stuck ball. I'm not kidding. The barrel would foul that badly with each shot using Pyrodex.
With a .010 lubed patch, I can probably skip the dry swab. I did it once by accident. It took a bit more effort than I like to get the ball seated, but I got it down there. It fired just fine.

My son is working on his third box of 100 rounds for his replica 1858 New Army .44. I'm barely into my second box.


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## Redleaf (May 21, 2012)

That "tar"  might also have been a combination of wax or oil and fouling cooked onto the bore.  The old myth of "seasoning" a bore like an iron skillet is nothing more than wiping over fouling mixed with oil or some kind of wax based lube.  Petroleum products are fine for rust prevention and just used that way will never present a problem, provided the gun is cleaned properly.  If you take a dirty bore and just oil it without removing the fouling first,  then you'll get that asphalt buildup in there.   There's a million ways to abuse a rifle barrel,  and muzzleloader shooters have just about cornered the market on that.  Alot of it comes from the fact that its extremely hard to clean one with the rod that comes in the gun.  A good stiff stainless 5/16" range rod with a bore guide and a handle will make muzzleloader shooting and cleaning a whole lot more fun and much easier to do.  Thats the first thing I recommend to new shooters,  get a good range rod first.


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## mmarkey (May 22, 2012)

D. Rat, For a guy that is grass green is this hobby you seem verrrrry resistant to take some sound advice. You should be easily able to load your rifle and fire it within a minute without rushing. If you can't it means you are getting excessive fouling or you have a rough barrel. 
From your description I guess you're shooting a Hawkin style rifle. I shoot a flintlock with a 50 cal, 44" long barrel. I shoot a .490 cast ball with a .018 patch. Many shooters would call that a loose load. If I was having problems loading like you're having I would have probably given this up years ago.

Redleaf and I are on the same page but you are not listening. You mentioned you are using Pyrodex. Pyrodex is more corrosive than Black Powder, Not BETTER. It came on the market several years ago when black powder was getting scarce, and had problems from the get-go. 

My first recommendation to you is get some 3f or 2f black powder. 

My second recommendation is to try using spit for a patch lube and skip the bore butter for range shooting and put it in your Hunting kit. 

My third recommendation is to stop boiling your cleaning water, Put the compressor away in the garage. Warm, or hot from the tap water in a pail with a few drops of dish wash detergent, put the breech in the pail and a cleaning patch on your rod and pump it through the bore till it runs clean. Then change to plain hot/warm water and do the same to rinse. Then run patches through the bore to dry it all. A pipe cleaner in the nipple will clean and dry that. Then run an oily, repeat oily patch in the bore to prevent rust. When you go to shoot next time run a clean patch to REMOVE the oil from the bore, and snap a cap to blow out the nipple. 

If any roughness is detected in the bore, I would put some 0000 steel wool on a cleaning jag and run it through the bore to smooth it out then Oil it.

My fourth recommendation is to think about your ball/patch combo. I guess you are shooting a .45 cal based on the 
.440 ball and the .010 patch. A tighter patch will give you less fouling as well.

My final suggestion is if you indeed have to swab the bore, use a wet (not sopping) patch then a dry patch. A dry patch alone is doing nothing but spreading around the fouling that is already there. It needs to be removed, at least somewhat.

If you follow these suggestions, I will guarantee that you will eliminate your problem with hard loading. Remember load and fire in a minute, not difficult. Good luck.

The invite to shoot with Lorren68 and me is still open.


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## Nicodemus (May 22, 2012)

mmarkey said:


> D. Rat, For a guy that is grass green is this hobby you seem verrrrry resistant to take some sound advice. You should be easily able to load your rifle and fire it within a minute without rushing. If you can't it means you are getting excessive fouling or you have a rough barrel.
> From your description I guess you're shooting a Hawkin style rifle. I shoot a flintlock with a 50 cal, 44" long barrel. I shoot a .490 cast ball with a .018 patch. Many shooters would call that a loose load. If I was having problems loading like you're having I would have probably given this up years ago.
> 
> Redleaf and I are on the same page but you are not listening. You mentioned you are using Pyrodex. Pyrodex is more corrosive than Black Powder, Not BETTER. It came on the market several years ago when black powder was getting scarce, and had problems from the get-go.
> ...




Very good advice.


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## SASS249 (May 22, 2012)

Nicodemus said:


> Very good advice.



x3.  Good advice.

Frankly, if you can not get something in the neighborhood of 5 shots off without having to run a patch then something is just not right.  We routinely shoot woods walks where time is part of the score.  You have to be able to load and fire numerous shots in a short period to be competitive.

Are you seeing any tears or cuts in your shot patches?  It does sound as if you might have some roughness in the barrel that could be lapped out.

A few years ago I purposely kept loading and shooting without running any patches through my rifle.  This was a 50 cal using FFG powder and spit patches.  I quit shooting after 25 rounds because I ran out of time. Last shot loaded fine and accuracy was OK.


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## Desert Rat (May 25, 2012)

mmarkey said:


> The invite to shoot with Lorren68 and me is still open.



Just say when and where, except tomorrow.


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## mmarkey (May 25, 2012)

Desert Rat said:


> Just say when and where, except tomorrow.



It's a deal send me a PM with an email address and I'll let you know the next time we go. Normally we go on a thursday or friday but if that doesn't work for you maybe we can do a weekend.


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## mmarkey (May 26, 2012)

PM Sent


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## Desert Rat (Jun 3, 2012)

Wooohoo! 12 shots today with no patches, wet or dry, between shots. Shots 2, 3 and 4 were difficult to load. After that it got easier. Started with .010 patches, went to .015, ended up with .018 and a fairly tight group. Just need to work it back down to the middle again.
After that, I was shooting pinpong balls at 100 yards with the M1. My son was doing it with his Mosin and the .22 rifle while our friend was using 7mm Mauser. None of those guns are scoped.


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