# To those who dont beleive



## Bird Slayer (Mar 2, 2011)

There is a heaven and there is a He11. Whether you accept that or not is your choice. God is coming back soon. Whether you choose to accept that or not is your choice. 

If you do not beleive i would suggest reading the two books: "23 minutes in He11" and "90 minutes in heaven"

http://spiritlessons.com/DOCUMENTS/BillWiese_23MinutesInHell_Text.htm


If this does not convince you search "near death experiences of He11" on google and read a few pages. Also if you read the book of Revelation it will give you a few answers. It talks about things going on right now in the world today and things in the near future. To give you a little insight on what will happen after the rapture takes place if you arent saved and are left behind:

Revelation 9:1-11 

9:1    And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 
9:2    And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 
9:3    And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 
9:4    And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. 
9:5    And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. 
9:6    And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. 
9:7    And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. 
9:8    And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. 
9:9    And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. 
9:10    And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. 
9:11    And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.


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## Six million dollar ham (Mar 2, 2011)

Are you really quoting scripture as proof of God's authenticity?


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## Bird Slayer (Mar 3, 2011)

Click the link and read the entire story.


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## Achilles Return (Mar 3, 2011)

No, there isn't. Thanks anyways.


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## Achilles Return (Mar 3, 2011)

I will never understand the intricacies of the mind that can mix a 'god of love' with the creation of eternal torture and have it make sense.


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## pnome (Mar 3, 2011)

Bird Slayer said:


> God is coming back soon.



Let me know when he gets here OK?


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## Bird Slayer (Mar 3, 2011)

Achilles Return said:


> I will never understand the intricacies of the mind that can mix a 'god of love' with the creation of eternal torture and have it make sense.



This place of eternal torture was not created for any of God's creations. It was made specifically for the devil and his angels. However, if you do not live for God but you live for the devil you will end up in this place.

Also i want to ask you a question. Why be an atheist? Why not beleive? If you beleive and you turn out wrong then you have lost nothing, but if you dont beleive and you are wrong look at what you have to face. Being an atheist is a lose/lose situation.


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## JFS (Mar 3, 2011)

Bird Slayer said:


> Why not beleive?



Do you believe in the tooth fairy?  If not, why not?


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## Bird Slayer (Mar 3, 2011)

JFS said:


> Do you believe in the tooth fairy?  If not, why not?



No but then again if i am wrong and the tooth fairy is real im not going to be burning and being tortured for eternity because i was wrong.


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## JFS (Mar 3, 2011)

Bird Slayer said:


> No but then again if i am wrong and the tooth fairy is real im not going to be burning and being tortured for eternity because i was wrong.




But think of all that good coin you are missing in the meantime.  

The whole Pascal's wager thing has been beaten to death.  There are plenty of flaws with the argument itself and you can read up on the internet if you care to learn, but at the end of the day you can't ask someone to believe in unlikely things just because you say there is a reward or punishment.   If there is a god, I've got to figure he/she/it won't punish you for using the reason he/she/it imbued you with and reward those who are too dumb to think things through for themselves but were just a kiss-arse who wanted to suck up on the off chance the talking donkey spoke the truth.


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## Six million dollar ham (Mar 3, 2011)

Bird Slayer said:


> Click the link and read the entire story.



About that.....no.

It looked like a post from k9 except much longer.


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## Bird Slayer (Mar 3, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> About that.....no.
> 
> It looked like a post from k9 except much longer.



Well then just read parts of it.


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## Achilles Return (Mar 3, 2011)

Bird Slayer said:


> This place of eternal torture was not created for any of God's creations. It was made specifically for the devil and his angels. However, if you do not live for God but you live for the devil you will end up in this place.



If the place was created with that knowledge that people will be sent there in mind, it absolutely was created for people. You can't wiggle yourself out of that. There's nothing stopping god from creating a "less nice heaven" for disbelievers, or simply just ending their consciousness and mind forever after death. But no, you're god wants non-believers to go to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----.  That's the reality of your beliefs, don't hide from them. 

As a _thinking, moral_ person - that absolutely disgusts me. There is nothing that appears to be just in that kind of system. Something as trivial as 'belief' is what makes the difference between eternal life and eternal torture. That's utterly ridiculous. 

Furthermore, did Pat Tillman live for the devil? Anne Frank? Ask yourself these questions before you arrogantly presume that life without _your_ god means a life for evil. It's that kind of elitism that you guys like to suggest that I would have -  yet you do it proudly and without remorse:

 "There is a heaven and there is a Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----...whether you accept it or not..."

You haven't even met me and you're already telling me I'm wrong? Go back to apologetics school, you're doing it wrong.



> Also i want to ask you a question. Why be an atheist? Why not beleive? If you beleive and you turn out wrong then you have lost nothing, but if you dont beleive and you are wrong look at what you have to face. Being an atheist is a lose/lose situation.



Why be an atheist? Because I have no reason to be anything else. And another hint - Pascals wager is tired, old and terrible. There are religions other than christianity in the world - did you forget about them? If one picked your religion and the hindus ended up being right, I'd wager I'd lost quite a bit as I experienced my next life as a pig. Is the Muslim version of Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- suddenly serving ice cream? The idea that the choice is between atheism and christianity only serves to support how self-inflated your ego seems to come across. 

Grade: F-


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## georgiabound (Mar 3, 2011)

It is everyone's right to believe or not.

But, if you don't believe.......

























What if you're wrong?


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## jbird1 (Mar 3, 2011)

georgiabound said:


> It is everyone's right to believe or not.
> 
> But, if you don't believe.......
> 
> ...



Well then you would just explain to The Lord that you were "unable to take the word of your human spokespersons" and that you "hope he noticed that you didn't attempt to curry favor" by beleiving just to be on the safe side.  I wonder how many out there have one foot in and one foot out?


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## Six million dollar ham (Mar 3, 2011)

georgiabound said:


> It is everyone's right to believe or not.
> 
> But, if you don't believe.......
> 
> What if you're wrong?




Even asking these questions makes it look to me like you're not 100% sure yourself.  Chew on that.


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 3, 2011)

You guys know my beliefs, I've been here awhile now, you know that I believe Jesus to be God's firstborn Son. I consider myself a Christian. Like you, This burn in he1l by a loving God belief is disgusting.


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## Bird Slayer (Mar 3, 2011)

Achilles Return said:


> If the place was created with that knowledge that people will be sent there in mind, it absolutely was created for people. You can't wiggle yourself out of that. There's nothing stopping god from creating a "less nice heaven" for disbelievers, or simply just ending their consciousness and mind forever after death.



Again. God created he11 for the devil and his angels (followers of the devil). It was not created for man. He clearly states that he wants none of his creations going to he11. However if you decide not to believe or to follow the devil then you will be punished by going to he11. Why should God create a place not quite as nice for people who dont beleive in him and who turn their backs on him.


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## JFS (Mar 4, 2011)

Bird Slayer said:


> Why should God create a place not quite as nice for people who dont beleive in him and who turn their backs on him.



Geez, sounds like your God has less emotional maturity than most middle school girls.


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## VisionCasting (Mar 4, 2011)

jbird1 said:


> I wonder how many out there have one foot in and one foot out?



More than any of us realize.


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## Bird Slayer (Mar 4, 2011)

JFS said:


> Geez, sounds like your God has less emotional maturity than most middle school girls.



So you are telling me if you are taking a bunch of kids on a trip somewhere (the fair for example). You make it clear that all the ones that behave will get rewarded with a piece of candy and give a fair warning that whoever misbehaves will get a spanking. All of the kids are being well behaved and following you except for 1 or 2 that you have to get on to and tell over and over again to behave and do as you say. Well at the end of the day and its time to leave you haave had enough. You give all the ones who behave their candy but instead of punishing the ones who didnt obey you you give them a smaller piece of candy.

Same concept. Heaven is the candy...he11 is the spanking.


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## ambush80 (Mar 4, 2011)

Bird Slayer said:


> So you are telling me if you are taking a bunch of kids on a trip somewhere (the fair for example). You make it clear that all the ones that behave will get rewarded with a piece of candy and give a fair warning that whoever misbehaves will get a spanking. All of the kids are being well behaved and following you except for 1 or 2 that you have to get on to and tell over and over again to behave and do as you say. Well at the end of the day and its time to leave you haave had enough. You give all the ones who behave their candy but instead of punishing the ones who didnt obey you you give them a smaller piece of candy.
> 
> Same concept. Heaven is the candy...he11 is the spanking.



Maybe you should burn them in a pit of fire for eternity.

Honestly, who deserves THAT kind of "spanking"?  Ghandi?  Buddah?  Hardly an appropriate punishment and for what crime?  Why, it sounds downright evil.


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## stringmusic (Mar 4, 2011)

He11 is _complete _separation from God, that is the main consequence to not accepting a relationship with God on this earth. Everyone is giving he11 a real humanistic torture method.


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## Bird Slayer (Mar 4, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> Say you or achillies, hamster boy, JFS, pnome or any of you other "atheists" had the power to give your son as the ultimate sacrifice for all man kind and all you asked is that they believe; believe the miracles he performed and miracles performed by the power given in his name.  What would you do?  How would you feel?
> 
> Take in mind you give your only son and he is taken, and at the command of his own people, is beaten far worse than any movie can ever depict and is murdered for no other reason than he wanted people to believe in you and still does.
> 
> ...



I completely agree. You "atheists" get mad when we try to talk to you about God and Christianity. Lord knows what you would do if you were in Gods shoes and gave your only son to die for people who wouldnt care and would turn their backs on you.


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## ambush80 (Mar 4, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> Say you or achillies, hamster boy, JFS, pnome or any of you other "atheists" had the power to give your son as the ultimate sacrifice for all man kind and all you asked is that they believe; believe the miracles he performed and miracles performed by the power given in his name.  What would you do?  How would you feel?
> 
> Take in mind you give your only son and he is taken, and at the command of his own people, is beaten far worse than any movie can ever depict and is murdered for no other reason than he wanted people to believe in you and still does.
> 
> ...





Bird Slayer said:


> I completely agree. You "atheists" get mad when we try to talk to you about God and Christianity. Lord knows what you would do if you were in Gods shoes and gave your only son to die for people who wouldnt care and would turn their backs on you.



Frankly, I do think I could do a far better and MORE JUST job than the God described by the Bible.  First I'd scrap that notion of human sacrifice.  It's so......primitive.  Sounds like something desert herdsman would come up with.


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## 1handkneehigh (Mar 4, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> Say you or achillies, hamster boy, JFS, pnome or any of you other "atheists" had the power to give your son as the ultimate sacrifice for all man kind and all you asked is that they believe; believe the miracles he performed and miracles performed by the power given in his name.  What would you do?  How would you feel?
> 
> Take in mind you give your only son and he is taken, and at the command of his own people, is beaten far worse than any movie can ever depict and is murdered for no other reason than he wanted people to believe in you and still does.
> 
> ...



If I am god I would definitely not be sending my ONLY ONLY SON to die.  My dog would have the same power to safe mankind and can do the same things as jesus would.  If you can send your labrador retriever why in the world would you send you only son?


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## ambush80 (Mar 4, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> God didnt sacrifice His son.  Jesus was murdered at the command of his own people.  God turned his back and allowed it to happen just like he allows many other things to happen on this earth.  Its free will and that same thing is what allows you to have your opinion.





1handkneehigh said:


> If I am god I would definitely not be sending my ONLY ONLY SON to die.  My dog would have the same power to safe mankind and can do the same things as jesus would.  If you can send your labrador retriever why in the world would you send you only son?



Or skip the whole thing.  There are better ways to make a point.


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## JFS (Mar 4, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> God didnt sacrifice His son.  Jesus was murdered at the command of his own people.  God turned his back and allowed it to happen just like he allows many other things to happen on this earth.  Its free will and that same thing is what allows you to have your opinion.



So if people are saved due to the sacrifice, what would have happened without it?  If people didn't kill Jesus, who would be saved?

Frankly the whole thing is just a tiresome echo of an ancient Jewish fetish for sacrifice.   An omnipotent God can redeem whoever he wants, period.  No just god condemns anyone for a failure to irrationally pick the right spooky stories.


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## Buckhustler (Mar 4, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> God didnt sacrifice His son.  Jesus was murdered at the command of his own people.  God turned his back and allowed it to happen just like he allows many other things to happen on this earth.  Its free will and that same thing is what allows you to have your opinion.



How do you know this?


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## Buckhustler (Mar 4, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> How do you not?



Is that just some theory you have or do you have something like the bible to prove it?


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## Buckhustler (Mar 4, 2011)

What verse?


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## JFS (Mar 4, 2011)

Can you explain what would have happened if Jesus wasn't killed and just died of natural causes?


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## Buckhustler (Mar 4, 2011)

Dont know... It wasnt part of gods plan.


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## Oak-flat Hunter (Mar 5, 2011)

Dogma.! Dogma.! Dogma.!!!!!!!!


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## Achilles Return (Mar 5, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> How do you not?



Because you're making it up.


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## Achilles Return (Mar 5, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> Prove it!
> And dont come back with some lame "You prove it".  It is well documented throughout history in books written by over fourty authors that all refer to historical fact that has been proved that in fact God does exist.
> 
> You ,and many like you, feel you are more intellectually developed and feel you need no reason to acknowledge that God does exist because you dont want to answer for what you do in this life.  Well I have bad news for you,  you do have to answer.  You have to answer to God, and he is angry.  Angry at a world the continually denies Him, and He will judge me and you and every other soul that has and will walk the face of this earth.  You are just one of many that will learn the hard way and will sorely wish you had heeded the gospel that I know you have read several times on this forum.



You really don't know how this logic thing works, do you? Do you know what proof is? Evidence? Your god has none of these. Did you honestly expect the mythical writings of a nomadic tribe from the middle east to be considered a such? Their contemporaries thought various gods controlled the weather, the ocean, the sun. That's the kind of societal intellect we're trusting with our 'after-lives'? haha, alright. 

And did you mean historical facts like a 'world-wide flood'? The slavery of the Israelites in Egypt? The creation story? None of these things have any sort of historical evidence. In fact, our knowledge of the world through science and rational inquiry suggest that they _didn't_ happen. Saying "God's existence is a historical fact and proven" is either absolute ignorance of the world or willfully lying. 

The fact of the matter about 'proof' is this: We are born without the knowledge of anything. We call it 'tabula rasa', and it basically tells us that what knowledge we do gain is from our experience and sensory inputs. This also means we are born _without_ beliefs. Like it or not, humans are born atheist, only to later become religious by the method of their upbringing. Since the state of disbelief is the default position, it is on the burden of the believers to prove _their_ position. I am an atheist because I have absolutely no reason not to be. Every religious institution I've examined was absolutely unsatisfying to objectivity or irrational, and christianity was absolutely no exception. I personally maintain that the christian deity is paradoxical beyond something like deism or buddhism, so I have no trouble saying that the modern christian god doesn't exist. 

The idea of me trying to 'escape' morality is nothing more than a pathetic cop-out.  It's you trying to assert moral superiority so you can tell yourself that since I'm an arrogant immoral heathen, it necessitates that you _have_to be right. The truth is, and I know you know this - Christians are absolutely no different than anyone else out there. You guys are supposed 'little-christs', and yet there's nothing significantly unique about the morality of christians. You guys lie, kill, cheat just as much as the rest of humanity. I know the response to this is that humans are human and they still sin, christian or not. But you think that the followers of the 'correct' god would be at least a smidgen more moral than the rest of society. You aren't. 

So please, don't come at me and tell me I'm trying to get out of any sort of moral judgement.  If there happens to be a deity that judges morality of my life after I die, I think I'll do alright. If there is a god that says he judges morality but judges 'belief' instead, well that's a cosmic game of dice that I was destined to fail anyways. And I'm not one to gamble - it goes against _my_ ethics.


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## Achilles Return (Mar 5, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> Well, up until I believe the book of Acts, salvation through Jesus was only for the Jews. Not someone practicing the Jewish faith but blood born Jews.  Long story short, the word was repeatedly refused and many gentiles professed faith but were unable to receive.  God then granted that salvation to ALL who will believe.
> 
> As far as Jesus living to a ripe old age and dying,  only one knows that and there is only one way to ask.



Thanks for pointing another example of why christianity is absolutely and positively immoral.


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## Bird Slayer (Mar 5, 2011)

Achilles Return said:


> And I'm not one to gamble - it goes against _my_ ethics.



Wait...whats that...

You arent one to gamble but you are willing to take a chance of burning for eternity. Sounds like a gambling man to me? hmmm.


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## ambush80 (Mar 5, 2011)

Bird Slayer said:


> Wait...whats that...
> 
> You arent one to gamble but you are willing to take a chance of burning for eternity. Sounds like a gambling man to me? hmmm.



You're gambling that The Muslims aren't right.  Or that the Buddhists or Wiccans aren't right.  You pays your money, you places your bet.  I'll put my money on "something that makes more sense".


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## Achilles Return (Mar 5, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> Long drawn out nothingness again.  Thanks for wasting my time achilles.



And your inability to respond to any of my points speaks to the validity of your arguments. Thanks for trying. Better luck next time.


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## Achilles Return (Mar 5, 2011)

Bird Slayer said:


> Wait...whats that...
> 
> You arent one to gamble but you are willing to take a chance of burning for eternity. Sounds like a gambling man to me? hmmm.



Refusal to engage in the 'picking of religions' game is what I'm referring to. No matter what religion you pick, 'someone' is burning in some sort of archaic afterlife. I'm beyond that moronic silliness. A religion that has to use the threat of eternal torture to coerce people into belief bothers me.


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## Achilles Return (Mar 5, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> No your immature attempt to create valid points out of nothing shows how insecure you really are in your belief.  Have a nice night.



So because you think my response was 'out of nothing' then it was immature? This is a terrible argument. It's akin to saying 'I think your wrong so your arguments were stupid'. How about you specifically address something I actually said instead of pulling the wool over your eyes and attempting to plea moral superiority. 

Then you suggest I'm 'insecure', as if maturity and insecurity have anything to do with the other. To be honest, if this was the case - you really couldn't get much more immature than the following:



> You ,and many like you, feel you are more intellectually developed and feel you need no reason to acknowledge that God does exist because you dont want to answer for what you do in this life. Well I have bad news for you, you do have to answer. You have to answer to God, and he is angry. Angry at a world the continually denies Him, and He will judge me and you and every other soul that has and will walk the face of this earth. You are just one of many that will learn the hard way and will sorely wish you had heeded the gospel that I know you have read several times on this forum.



By your own (wrong) logic, who is the insecure one here? Let me point out before you respond which board you're on - You will never see me on the christian board - I'm not the one fishing for fights.


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## Six million dollar ham (Mar 5, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> Since you have been witnessed to and have chosen not to believe we are not brothers in faith, therefore you bore me with vain ramblings in ill fated attempts to convert people to your belief system so you wont be the only one cooking like an egg in a frying pan.



Wow.  



crbrumbelow said:


> And whether you want to or not you know it is real because without God you couldnt be "atheist".



Holy crap you've just destroyed atheism with a single sentence!!!  

Just kidding, your claim actually reads like something an 8th grader would spout.


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## Six million dollar ham (Mar 5, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> You "atheists" claim to be so moral and so smart.  Why waste your time in trying to be so moral and trying to disprove that God doesnt exist?  I mean if you only go around once why are you arguing with someone you feel is inferior to you.  Who is the stupid one here?  If you need a hint find a mirror.



You seem angry.


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## ambush80 (Mar 5, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> I sure am.  You people use the same snide remarks and tone in your words whenever you confront a Christian on here.  You would be so bold face to face.  All you guys ever do is use 10 dollar words to try and argue your moot point of view and you wind up with the same old non existent argument.
> 
> I ask again why are you trying to be so smart and always trying to disprove that God exists.
> 
> One thing you cant disprove is the fact that over 40 different people, most of whom never knew or saw each other, wrote texts describing the same incidents given by one divine God and before the book of Matthew, several prophesied the coming of the messiah, and of those, NONE knew the other or had read the others texts.  No coincidence there.  He is real, you know he is real and you are denying it and are going to answer for it and if you dont accept Jesus as the son of the living God you will be cast into he!! upon judgement.


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## Six million dollar ham (Mar 6, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> I sure am.  You people use the same snide remarks and tone in your words whenever you confront a Christian on here.  You would be so bold face to face.  All you guys ever do is use 10 dollar words to try and argue your moot point of view and you wind up with the same old non existent argument.



You're right, I would be so bold face to face.  What you see is what you get.  So the 10 dollar words frustrate you.  My apologies.  

What measures have you taken to not be frustrated in life by $10 words?



crbrumbelow said:


> I ask again why are you trying to be so smart and always trying to disprove that God exists.



Why do I try to be smart?  Aside from blonde actresses and models, who ever got anywhere in life by trying to be dumb?



crbrumbelow said:


> He is real, you know he is real and you are denying it and are going to answer for it and if you dont accept Jesus as the son of the living God you will be cast into he!! upon judgement.



And this is the part that you find satisfying, isn't it?


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## vowell462 (Mar 6, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> My "inability" is due to a lack of interest of anything you have to say.  Since you have been witnessed to and have chosen not to believe we are not brothers in faith, therefore you bore me with vain ramblings in ill fated attempts to convert people to your belief system so you wont be the only one cooking like an egg in a frying pan.  Furthermore being that we are not brothers in faith I am obliged and confirmed in scripture that I am to wash my hands of you and do not have read or listen to anything you say because you are basically given up to a reprobate mind and are worthy of the second death.  And whether you want to or not you know it is real because without God you couldnt be "atheist".



Are you serious? Where is the intelligent conversation here? Atheist, Agnostic, or whatever, this statement alone is reason enough to turn anyone away from christianity. Dude, your sounding rather cultish. Are you the guy that stands outside of the Braves game and yells at people about how they are ruining their lives for drinking beer and having a good time?


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## Achilles Return (Mar 6, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> My "inability" is due to a lack of interest of anything you have to say.  Since you have been witnessed to and have chosen not to believe we are not brothers in faith, therefore you bore me with vain ramblings in ill fated attempts to convert people to your belief system so you wont be the only one cooking like an egg in a frying pan.  Furthermore being that we are not brothers in faith I am obliged and confirmed in scripture that I am to wash my hands of you and do not have read or listen to anything you say because you are basically given up to a reprobate mind and are worthy of the second death.  And whether you want to or not you know it is real because without God you couldnt be "atheist".



You are nuts, dude. Seek help.


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## Achilles Return (Mar 6, 2011)

I thought you had washed your hands of us? Is it the mark of the 'mature' man to keep coming back for more? How about you stop playing games and answer the quite valid points I made - that is, if you even are capable of doing so. 

Or are you simply going to continue sticking your fingers in your ears and yell how 'empty our responses are', or how 'old our rhetoric is'? I must say, you are a terrible apologeticist. Can you _do_ anything other than say 'I'm right and you're wrong and you're going to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----' - or are these matters simply out of your hand and mind? I'd recommend leaving the debating to those who are capable of putting together rational arguments.


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## Achilles Return (Mar 6, 2011)

I'd recommend you start reading here, before you decide to respond again.


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## vowell462 (Mar 6, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> I sure am.  You people use the same snide remarks and tone in your words whenever you confront a Christian on here.  You wouldnt be so bold face to face.  All you guys ever do is use 10 dollar words to try and argue your moot point of view and you wind up with the same old non existent argument.
> 
> I ask again why are you trying to be so smart and always trying to disprove that God exists.
> 
> One thing you cant disprove is the fact that over 40 different people, most of whom never knew or saw each other, wrote texts describing the same incidents given by one divine God and before the book of Matthew, several prophesied the coming of the messiah, and of those, NONE knew the other or had read the others texts.  No coincidence there.  He is real, you know he is real and you are denying it and are going to answer for it and if you dont accept Jesus as the son of the living God you will be cast into he!! upon judgement.



Wow. Dude you have issues. How can you be so mad at someone for not believing the same things you do? I dont think many on here go around trying to " disprove" god, they just rebutt people like you that come on here and try to argue and convert. You are the one spreading the word, not the atheist. Are you really trying to be an apologetic? Listen to the tone in your post and maybe youll understand why nobody will take you seriously. As for being bold face to face? You are assuming again. Maybe you should re-cap before someone does meet you face to face.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 6, 2011)

Bird Slayer said:


> This place of eternal torture was not created for any of God's creations. It was made specifically for the devil and his angels. However, if you do not live for God but you live for the devil you will end up in this place.



Lucifer and the other angels are also God's creations are they not? And the lake of fire and all of its future inhabitants was known about before anything or anyone was created right? Your claims are not compatible with a God that is all knowing and all powerful.

As for the moral claims made of Christianity I find it positively immoral and evil. Here is why.

Consider a Nazi soldier in WWII working at a concentration camp. Day after day he helps unload jewish families from railroad cars, herds them into a gas chamber to have Zyklon B dropped on them, maybe he shoots a few here and there for fun, and this goes on daily for months or years. Eventually Germany loses the war and the soldier is caught, tried and convicted as a war criminal. Sentenced to hang the soldier sits in his cell and reflects on what he has done. He says the sinners prayer, repents of his sins, and accepts Jesus as his savior.

YOU as a christian must believe that the mass murderer goes to heaven for eternity while all of those non-believers he killed will burn forever. Why? Because they didn't believe Jesus was the messiah. Believe that if you must but don't call it moral.


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## StriperAddict (Mar 6, 2011)

Atlas, I'll try and give your thoughts a shot.  
If I chose NOT to forgive someone who has wronged me, even from the worst offense, then it becomes my problem, not theirs.  My heart will be consumed with bitterness and hatred.  While forgiveness seems a silly thing in light of murder, etc., it will set the heart of the one who forgives free from the power of that hatred. 

Here is just such a story:
*Pastor Turrell Humes Forgives His Daughter's Killer*

 If I, in my human weakness and little faith so often, can come to grips with an offender and forgive him, how much more so the Lord Himself?  

Atlas, don't get me wrong, I get the whole "axe murder, nazi criminal, rapist" thing.  I'd like this group to get what it's got coming... but I say that in my humanity, which isn't right/wrong, it's just not God's perspective.  You're looking at it in terms of degrees, God sees sin for what it ALL is and puts it FULLY to death on a cross.  He has to.  How can there be a "partial remedy" for it?

If He didn't do it for the murderer, then he didn't do it for you and I, and all hope for humanity is lost.


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## atlashunter (Mar 6, 2011)

SA,

If you want to chalk the heavenly reward for the murderer up to mercy and forgiveness that's fine. But lets not call it moral or just, especially in light of the claim that the non-believing victims will burn forever. I've also never seen a link between killing an innocent man to pay for the wrongs of someone else. Really think that is moral? Wouldn't it be more moral and more just to just forgive out of the goodness of your heart? Imagine that Pastor Turrell killed someone elses daughter as a means to forgive his daughters killer. That is the morality of vicarious redemption.


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## stringmusic (Mar 6, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> SA,
> 
> If you want to chalk the heavenly reward for the murderer up to mercy and forgiveness that's fine. But lets not call it moral or just, especially in light of the claim that the non-believing victims will burn forever. *I've also never seen a link between killing an innocent man to pay for the wrongs of someone else.* Really think that is moral?



So maybe you would hear and believe?
....also I dont believe Jesus was a "man"










> Imagine that Pastor Turrell killed someone elses daughter as a means to forgive his daughters killer. That is the morality of vicarious redemption.


It wouldnt have been a perfect sacrifice.


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## atlashunter (Mar 7, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> It wouldnt have been a perfect sacrifice.



What was it about Jesus that made him the perfect sacrifice?


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## stringmusic (Mar 7, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> What was it about Jesus that made him the perfect sacrifice?



He was without sin. Holy.


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## atlashunter (Mar 7, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> He was without sin. Holy.



You do realize you are making my point? The more innocent and without blame the sacrifice the more suitable to have them pay the price for someone else's wrongdoing. In other words if the good pastor were to kill someone else's kid to pay for the crime of someone having killed his daughter, better to find a virgin, straight A student, etc. The more pure and flawless the better. This is justice? This is moral in your view?


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## StriperAddict (Mar 7, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> You do realize you are making my point? The more innocent and without blame the sacrifice the more suitable to have them pay the price for someone else's wrongdoing. In other words if the good pastor were to kill someone else's kid to pay for the crime of someone having killed his daughter, better to find a virgin, straight A student, etc. The more pure and flawless the better. This is justice? This is moral in your view?


 
The difference between a straight A student and Christ is that one of them rose from the dead.  God was not about to choose a mortal man to suffer for the "murderer".  His only Son went to the cross willingly for love's sake. Sending someone else to die who does not have power over death would be futile.  (Which is why the faith of Budda, Islam, Confucious, etc., are of no account, because their leaders and prophets are still dead in the ground.)

The death and ressurection of Christ was life apart from serving God with "dead works", and was for you and I, and all who would call on Him.

A final point on the talk about "why does God send "good" people to an eternity without Him"?  Think of it this way, if one goes thru his whole life pushing God out of his life, no matter how "good" on "any earthly standard", doesn't that person freely make his choice of where he/she really wants to be?  
And if heaven's entrance is by good works, God is then a respecter of person's and the free gift of grace is no longer free, because God now "grades on a curve".  That simply would not be fair, from the least of His creation to the "greatest".  Consider it this way, if I came up to a large mansion, knocked on the door and told the owner that I wanted to live there, he has every right to deny me entrance because of one thing...  he doesn't know me.  The ones he knows well (family) get to be part of his life and part of what he owns, and share in its joys forever.  


The ownership principle is the same in the kingdom.
Rom 8:32  He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?

In a gesture of the purest love Christ comes to _our_ house, "knocks" on _our_ heart's door, and we either answer the door (invitation) or not.  

*Revelation 3:20*
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

We are not forced to take the free gift and call Him Lord, if we choose not to.


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## atlashunter (Mar 7, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> The difference between a straight A student and Christ is that one of them rose from the dead.



Not sure how you think this helps you address the point I was making. The justice of punishing the innocent for the crimes of the guilty is somehow altered if they recover from the punishment? How does that work? Walk me through the logic on that one.




StriperAddict said:


> A final point on the talk about "why does God send "good" people to an eternity without Him"?  Think of it this way, if one goes thru his whole life pushing God out of his life, no matter how "good" on "any earthly standard", doesn't that person freely make his choice of where he/she really wants to be?



You're assuming that people are given knowledge of what is behind door number 3. The reality is they aren't. Not only that but there are thousands of doors to choose from and you get one shot. Maybe something great is behind one of those doors, maybe not. One thing that is true though even under your own theology is that the maker of the game who wants you to choose the right door could eliminate all the other possibilities so that you had an honest choice but for whatever reason refuses to do so. Sound like an honest game to you? You may very well go to the grave and find yourself facing the wrath of someone else's god for having made the wrong choice. Does that mean you chose to experience their punishment? Or does it mean you did the best you could with the scant tools and information available to you? Is it really justice to take someone in that situation who did the best they could and torture them forever for having made the wrong choice? Do you really believe such a monstrous thing?




StriperAddict said:


> And if heaven's entrance is by good works, God is then a respecter of person's and the free gift of grace is no longer free, because God now "grades on a curve".  That simply would not be fair, from the least of His creation to the "greatest".  Consider it this way, if I came up to a large mansion, knocked on the door and told the owner that I wanted to live there, he has every right to deny me entrance because of one thing...  he doesn't know me.  The ones he knows well (family) get to be part of his life and part of what he owns, and share in its joys forever.



Don't know about you SA but I see a pretty large gap between a man declining you entrance to his mansion and casting millions of murdered jews into a lake of fire and brimstone to burn forever. 




StriperAddict said:


> We are not forced to take the free gift and call Him Lord, if we choose not to.



And a woman with a knife to her throat isn't forced to give in to a rapist. Until your religion goes back and rewrites the books to not include the threat of he11 the proposal cannot be portrayed as one free of coercion.


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## Bird Slayer (Mar 8, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> "something that makes more sense".



EXACTLY. Whats easier to believe someone made all you see around you or.....we are descendants of monkeys


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## ambush80 (Mar 8, 2011)

Bird Slayer said:


> EXACTLY. Whats easier to believe someone made all you see around you or.....we are descendants of monkeys



I will say this once and you should tell it to all the other Creationists:

According to The Theory of Evolution, man did not evolve from monkeys.  They evolved from a common ancestor.

Does the story and time line of the Creation story in Genesis make sense in light of all your experiences and all the things that you may have learned about the physical world?

Lastly,  if there is  a creator, what if you are wrong about WHO the creator is?


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## atlashunter (Mar 8, 2011)

One problem I have with the whole background of scripture and how it came to be, how it was passed down and changed along the way, the sometimes murderous conflicts over which scriptures would prevail in the faith, etc. is when I look at how wonderful and amazing, vast and powerful the universe is I can't help but think that if all of it was created by some being and if that being wanted to be known by us it would be more than capable of making itself known in a way that left no doubts. It wouldn't be done in the way that theists expect us to believe. Religion and especially the Abrahamic religions appear just as we would expect a fabricated man made religion to look.


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## Achilles Return (Mar 8, 2011)

Bird Slayer said:


> EXACTLY. Whats easier to believe someone made all you see around you or.....we are descendants of monkeys


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## Buckhustler (Mar 9, 2011)

Your really gonna try to disprove my god by the dissection of an animal? What does that prove? Only Jesus Christ was perfect when he walked this earth. God didn't create humans and animals perfectly.


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## Achilles Return (Mar 9, 2011)

Buckhustler said:


> Your really gonna try to disprove my god by the dissection of an animal? What does that prove? Only Jesus Christ was perfect when he walked this earth. God didn't create humans and animals perfectly.



So you're telling me 'god' purposely created animals inefficiently to fool scientists? Alright dude. Believe what you want - I think I'll go with what evidence supports.


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## vowell462 (Mar 9, 2011)

Buckhustler said:


> Your really gonna try to disprove my god by the dissection of an animal? What does that prove? Only Jesus Christ was perfect when he walked this earth. God didn't create humans and animals perfectly.



I didnt see where he was trying to disprove "your" god. He was trying to prove evolution. If " your god" doesnt create animals perfectly, then doesnt that explain why they would change over time? Is that your answer to evolution?


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## Buckhustler (Mar 9, 2011)

Achilles Return said:


> So you're telling me 'god' purposely created animals inefficiently to fool scientists? Alright dude. Believe what you want - I think I'll go with what evidence supports.



Dissecting a giraffe proves there is no god? And no... Scientist try their best to prove false theories to prove their is no god. So you go with what "evidence" supports and not proves? So your betting your eternity over this?


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## Ridge Walker (Mar 9, 2011)

Buckhustler said:


> Dissecting a giraffe proves there is no god? And no... Scientist try their best to prove false theories to prove their is no god. So you go with what "evidence" supports and not proves? So your betting your eternity over this?



Which God are you betting your eternity on?

RW


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## Achilles Return (Mar 9, 2011)

Buckhustler said:


> Dissecting a giraffe proves there is no god? And no... Scientist try their best to prove false theories to prove their is no god. So you go with what "evidence" supports and not proves? So your betting your eternity over this?



Are you capable of reading what I type, or are you simply going to continue to supply your own answers? No, you cannot prove a negation. For example - prove there isn't an invisible teapot on the flip side of the moon. Not possible, right? 

And no, scientists do not try to prove there isn't a god. That's absolutely ridiculous. Biologists don't even bother to 'prove' evolution at this point - it's accepted curriculum. 

There isn't an eternity to bet on, by the way. This is all you get. And besides, 'betting' goes against my morals.


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## Buckhustler (Mar 9, 2011)

I'm not here to argue with you. I pray you find your way back to god. 

Psalm 14:1
The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good.

Proverbs 28:26 
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.


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## vowell462 (Mar 9, 2011)

Achilles Return said:


> Are you capable of reading what I type, or are you simply going to continue to supply your own answers? No, you cannot prove a negation. For example - prove there isn't an invisible teapot on the flip side of the moon. Not possible, right?
> 
> And no, scientists do not try to prove there isn't a god. That's absolutely ridiculous. Biologists don't even bother to 'prove' evolution at this point - it's accepted curriculum.
> 
> There isn't an eternity to bet on, by the way. This is all you get. And besides, 'betting' goes against my morals.



Agreed. Dont know of any scientists that try and disprove god. They just have a thirst for knowledge and seek answers. Therefore, they do research and come up with suggestions and sometimes hard evidence, like evolution.


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## stringmusic (Mar 9, 2011)

Achilles Return said:


> And no, scientists do not try to prove there isn't a god. That's absolutely ridiculous. Biologists don't even bother to 'prove' evolution at this point - it's accepted curriculum.


Why is it accepted cirriculum if it cant be "proven"? 



> There isn't an eternity to bet on, by the way. This is all you get.


You sure?



> And besides, 'betting' goes against my morals.



You have bet that there is no eternity havent you? Why is it against your morals?


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## Achilles Return (Mar 9, 2011)

Buckhustler said:


> I'm not here to argue with you. I pray you find your way back to god.
> 
> Psalm 14:1
> The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good.



You say you aren't here to argue with me, yet you're the one who originally responded to me - make up your mind. 

As to your verse, answer me this - its meaning is very clear, atheists do abominable deeds, and I am not capable of doing good. Do you truly believe this? Am I not capable of doing something that's good? What have I done that is ' worthy of or causing disgust or hatred'?

If you refuse to answer me one that, how about this? Bill Gates opened the largest transparently operated charitable foundation in the world. He has given over 28 billion dollars to aid to various causes, and continuously pledges to give over half of his wealth to charity. Is that abominable? As someone who doesn't believe in god, I thought he wouldn't be capable of acts that were good?

It's a _clear_ example of where your bible is obviously not correct. There are atheists that do a multitude of good work - your religion certainly doesn't have the exclusivity on good morals. That's a sick joke.


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## stringmusic (Mar 9, 2011)

Achilles Return said:


> You say you aren't here to argue with me, yet you're the one who originally responded to me - make up your mind.
> 
> As to your verse, answer me this - its meaning is very clear, atheists do abominable deeds, and I am not capable of doing good. Do you truly believe this? Am I not capable of doing something that's good? What have I done that is ' worthy of or causing disgust or hatred'?
> 
> ...


Nor does it claim to.


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## Achilles Return (Mar 9, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Why is it accepted cirriculum if it cant be "proven"?



There is a mountain of evidence supporting evolution, it is a central tenet of biological science. Not 'believing' it is akin to not believing the earth revolves around the sun. The United States is alone in the industrialized world where evolution is doubted among the general populace (And it absolutely isn't among american biologists, do not ever get that idea). In fact, we sit among the Islamic nations in our percentages of acceptance. Kind of pathetic.  



> You sure?



In the sense that I absolutely no reason not to be, sure. There is _no_ physical or natural evidence that suggests consciousness will survive the termination of our brain. 'Hoping' or having faith that we will is not a notion based in reason, but almost purely out of fear of death. Basically, our ancient ancestors liked thinking we'll see our loved ones again, and that gradually turned into organized religion. Christianity is no exception. 



> You have bet that there is no eternity havent you? Why is it against your morals?



I'm not 'betting' anything. The fact that christianity turns into 'gambling on your (after)life' is something I find disgusting. Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- is the most ridiculous and archaic thing in christian doctrine, and it's what makes it seem less of some 'true religion' and more of mechanism for the ruling elite to control the uneducated masses. The majorities have been duped for a long time.

The quicker the death of religion comes, the better for humanity. In my opinion, anyways.


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## Achilles Return (Mar 9, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Nor does it claim to.



And yet it claims that those without god aren't capable of good. But you didn't have any response for that, did you? Picking and choosing, picking and choosing - the christian way?


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## stringmusic (Mar 9, 2011)

Achilles Return said:


> And yet it claims that those without god aren't capable of good. But you didn't have any response for that, did you? Picking and choosing, picking and choosing - the christian way?



Doing good apart from God is a waste of time in the Christian framework. There is no good apart from God.


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## stringmusic (Mar 9, 2011)

Achilles Return said:


> And yet it claims that those without god aren't capable of good. But you didn't have any response for that, did you? Picking and choosing, picking and choosing - the christian way?



why are you so upset?


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## Buckhustler (Mar 9, 2011)

I'm not saying you aren't a good person. From what I see this means doing good for yourself and your self esteem and not for the glory of god. The bible says give the glory to god. Money means nothing. Have you ever heard about the story where the poor widow?

Luke 21:1-4
 As he looked up, Jesus saw the rich putting their gifts into the temple treasury.  He also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins. "I tell you the truth," he said, "this poor widow has put in more than all the others. All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on."

How is the bible not correct? You are misinterpreting it....


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## Buckhustler (Mar 9, 2011)

"Basically, our ancient ancestors liked thinking we'll see our loved ones again, and that gradually turned into organized religion"


How do you know this? You just made that up?..... That is someones, or your own, theory?


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## Achilles Return (Mar 9, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Doing good apart from God is a waste of time in the Christian framework. There is no good apart from God.



And I find this gross and immoral.


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## Achilles Return (Mar 9, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> why are you so upset?



I'm not.


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## Buckhustler (Mar 9, 2011)

Why do you find it gross and immoral? He is the one who created all things. All the joy in your life that you have ever experienced and will experience was given to you by him. He has given you everything! He has given you life itself! Why wouldn't you do good for him? He even gave his life for you and you try to deny him and prove him false. 

Matthew 10:33
But whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.


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## Achilles Return (Mar 9, 2011)

Buckhustler said:


> I'm not saying you aren't a good person. From what I see this means doing good for yourself and your self esteem and not for the glory of god. The bible says give the glory to god. Money means nothing. Have you ever heard about the story where the poor widow?



Thanks for making up your mind and continuing to argue with me. 

It looks to me like you just created your own interpretation to fit your world view and escape the obvious contradiction I pointed out. The words were pretty clear in verse you quoted - you can't just say 'No, they actually mean something other than what they say', or 'No, your interpretation is wrong, here is mine'. For one, how do you know Bill Gates is giving money for his self-esteem? Where do you get off on accusing anyone of this?

Money may mean nothing to you, but when it pays for aid for starving children, or cancer research - I would argue that can be used for good. 

Don't bother blabbering out bible verses to me. I've been there, and I'm _pretty_ confident I know my way around the bible better than you. Not to be a jerk, but I was extremely christian in my day.


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## Achilles Return (Mar 9, 2011)

Buckhustler said:


> Why do you find it gross and immoral? He is the one who created all things. All the joy in your life that you have ever experienced and will experience was given to you by him. He has given you everything! He has given you life itself! Why wouldn't you do good for him? He even gave his life for you and you try to deny him and prove him false.



I have no reason to think 'he' is real. Don't talk to me like it's a fact that he does. It isn't, no matter how much you 'wished' it was.


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## crbrumbelow (Mar 9, 2011)

Achilles Return said:


> What have I done that is ' worthy of or causing disgust or hatred'?




Every one of your responses is worded in an arrogant way that irritates just about everyone on here but your running buddies.  You purposely do this to try and demean Christians and continually reword your responses and say the same thing over and over again.  So yes, your arrogant, cocky remarks drive many of US to disgust.


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## Buckhustler (Mar 9, 2011)

Im not arguing with you. Im having a simple conversation and you seem to be getting hot tempered and "arguing". And no its not my  own created interpretation. It is the word of god. Im not talking about Bill Gates self esteem. And about having no reason to think he is real.... He died for you. Can I ask you a Question? Why are you here to talk about atheism?


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## Achilles Return (Mar 9, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> Every one of your responses is worded in an arrogant way that irritates just about everyone on here but your running buddies.  You purposely do this to try and demean Christians and continually reword your responses and say the same thing over and over again.  So yes, your arrogant, cocky remarks drive many of US to disgust.



Since when did using grammatically correct English become typing in an 'arrogant way'. Is disagreeing with christians now demeaning? 

Besides, has the characterization of your arguments been anything other than 'God exists'? You accuse me of rewording and saying things repetitively, and I don't see any different kind of behavior from you.

And for all the disgusting behavior I apparently emit, you'll never see _me_ send a private message covered in swear words threatening physical harm.


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## Buckhustler (Mar 9, 2011)

You really like to reword peoples sentences and make yourself look good don't you? Do you find pleasure in it?


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## Achilles Return (Mar 9, 2011)

Buckhustler said:


> Im not arguing with you. Im having a simple conversation and you seem to be getting hot tempered and "arguing". And no its not my  own created interpretation. It is the word of god. Im not talking about Bill Gates self esteem. And about having no reason to think he is real.... He died for you. Can I ask you a Question? Why are you here to talk about atheism?



Mental exercise, on some level. I'm also probably the only 'voice' of atheism most of you will meet, living in the south. I try to answer questions and spark debate to the best of my ability. I don't pretend to have all the answers, and you'll never see me suggest otherwise. 

But I absolutely do not submit to any sort of christian superiority, and if I read something that I find mis-characterizes my beliefs or atheism in general - I'll speak up.

You say he died for me - well I say prove he existed, with something other than the bible.


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## stringmusic (Mar 9, 2011)

Achilles Return said:


> And I find this gross and immoral.



Thats cause you dont believe in God. How is it immoral? Do you think society has given you perfect morals?


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## stringmusic (Mar 9, 2011)

Achilles Return said:


> Mental exercise, on some level. I'm also probably the only 'voice' of atheism most of you will meet, living in the south. I try to answer questions and spark debate to the best of my ability. I don't pretend to have all the answers, and you'll never see me suggest otherwise.
> 
> But I absolutely do not submit to any sort of christian superiority, and if I read something that I find mis-characterizes my beliefs or atheism in general - I'll speak up.
> 
> You say he died for me - *well I say prove he existed, with something other than the bible*.



Would you accept something other than the Bible, or would you discount that as well?


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## Achilles Return (Mar 9, 2011)

Buckhustler said:


> You really like to reword peoples sentences and make yourself look good don't you? Do you find pleasure in it?



I look at things logically. I can point out errors in logic fairly easily. I don't beat around that fact, so I might seem blunt about things. No ones forcing you to read what I have to say. 

You are so quick to look at me as the bad guy, what am I really doing other than ask questions that make you guys uncomfortable? Am I supposed to appear like I lack confidence to appeal to sensibilities?


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## crbrumbelow (Mar 9, 2011)

Achilles Return said:


> I have no reason to think 'he' is real. Don't talk to me like it's a fact that he does. It isn't, no matter how much you 'wished' it was.



Combative.


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## Buckhustler (Mar 9, 2011)

Why cant I use the bible? Did you watch the video posted by stringmusic? 99.6% historically correct.... Id say its pretty accurate and you are doing "mental exercises" to try and prove it wrong.


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## Achilles Return (Mar 9, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Would you accept something other than the Bible, or would you discount that as well?



I would look into it, as long as the source is valid. Josephus' account is extremely disputed. It's pretty well-known his words were tapered in the centuries following the rise of christianity.


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## crbrumbelow (Mar 9, 2011)

Achilles Return said:


> You say he died for me - well I say prove he existed, with something other than the bible.



The Ark is on Mount Arrarat.  It is proven.


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## Achilles Return (Mar 9, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> Combative.



You're imagining things.


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## Buckhustler (Mar 9, 2011)

I am uncomfortable..... Not because of your theories, "logical" thinking, and trying to prove god doesn't exist. I'm uncomfortable because I am commanded to love you and lead you to Christ and you deny him. My brother you could live in heaven for eternity and live in his love, but instead you try to play smart guy and you will burn in he11 for eternity and you will be forever separated from him and any joy ever imagined.


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## JFS (Mar 9, 2011)

Buckhustler said:


> 99.6% historically correct.



Starts off with a collection of crude fables and culminates in a ridiculous ghost story.  Flawed cover to cover, regardless of whether it has some Jewish history accurately thrown in.  It's like claiming the story of Rudolph the red nosed reindeer must be true because there really are reindeer and there really was a St Nick and there is a North Pole.  What's that get me too, 99.5%?


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## Achilles Return (Mar 9, 2011)

Buckhustler said:


> Why cant I use the bible? Did you watch the video posted by stringmusic? 99.6% historically correct.... Id say its pretty accurate and you are doing "mental exercises" to try and prove it wrong.



Because 'videos on the internet' aren't the authority on what's historically accurate in the bible. How do you even quantify something like that anyways? 

But no, I don't look at the bible as a historical source.


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## Achilles Return (Mar 9, 2011)

Buckhustler said:


> I am uncomfortable..... Not because of your theories, "logical" thinking, and trying to prove god doesn't exist. I'm uncomfortable because I am commanded to love you and lead you to Christ and you deny him. My brother you could live in heaven for eternity and live in his love, but instead you try to play smart guy and you will burn in he11 for eternity and you will be forever separated from him and any joy ever imagined.



It's glad to know I'm being sent to eternal torture because of something as trivial as belief. I'll pass.


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## Achilles Return (Mar 9, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> The Ark is on Mount Arrarat.  It is proven.



This is false.


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## Achilles Return (Mar 9, 2011)

And crbrumbelow, you made yourself _perfectly_ clear when you threatened me in a private message that you weren't interested in debate and discussion. Why are you talking to me now?


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## Buckhustler (Mar 9, 2011)

I wonder if you believe that grass is green? Or will you say... Its more of a brown in the winter? You just like arguing.


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## Achilles Return (Mar 9, 2011)

Thanks for telling me what I like. 

And I'm the arrogant one, haha.


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## Buckhustler (Mar 9, 2011)

I don't have to tell you... You show it in every post. And if you are saying im arrogant tell me how? I'm actually far from it seeing how I care about you.


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## stringmusic (Mar 9, 2011)

Achilles Return said:


> Because *'videos on the internet' aren't the authority on what's historically accurate in the bible*. How do you even quantify something like that anyways?
> 
> But no, I don't look at the bible as a historical source.



Tell us exactly what is then.


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## Ridge Walker (Mar 9, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Doing good apart from God is a waste of time in the Christian framework. There is no good apart from God.



You have got to be kidding me. 

RW


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## ambush80 (Mar 9, 2011)

Buckhustler said:


> I am uncomfortable..... Not because of your theories, "logical" thinking, and trying to prove god doesn't exist. I'm uncomfortable because I am commanded to love you and lead you to Christ and you deny him. My brother you could live in heaven for eternity and live in his love, but instead you try to play smart guy and you will burn in he11 for eternity and you will be forever separated from him and any joy ever imagined.



It never ceases to amaze me when it gets to this point.


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## Buckhustler (Mar 9, 2011)

Why do your interest include religion? What about it?


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## atlashunter (Mar 9, 2011)

Buckhustler said:


> Why do you find it gross and immoral? He is the one who created all things. All the joy in your life that you have ever experienced and will experience was given to you by him. He has given you everything! He has given you life itself! Why wouldn't you do good for him? He even gave his life for you and you try to deny him and prove him false.



You sound just like these people. Mind forged manacles...

<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/EoHsicn7duU?version=3"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/EoHsicn7duU?version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></object>


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## atlashunter (Mar 9, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> It never ceases to amaze me when it gets to this point.



They use it on others because it's a persuasive argument for them. Says a lot about their mindset.


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## JFS (Mar 9, 2011)

Buckhustler said:


> Why do your interest include religion? What about it?



Religion is integrally entwined with some of life's greater questions.  The fact that theism gets them wrong doesn't mean the questions aren't worth thinking about.


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## crbrumbelow (Mar 9, 2011)

Achilles Return said:


> This is false.



See your arrogance.  There are several documentaries and carbon dating data along with satelite photos that prove it is there.


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## crbrumbelow (Mar 9, 2011)

Achilles Return said:


> And crbrumbelow, you made yourself _perfectly_ clear when you threatened me in a private message that you weren't interested in debate and discussion. Why are you talking to me now?



Because the more you talk the more your ignorance is presented because you claim you know soo much about the Bible and how false you believe it is but you can do or say nothing to prove it.  The same goes for all your running buddies on here.  They ll claim the same and only know bits and pieces and use those few half accurate versions in their head to try and disprove the Bible.  The fact is you only know enough to get you in trouble.  You know He is real and dont want to answer to Him so you try and base what youre calling logic as a reason to claim that God isnt real.  Logic says He!! is hot, Heaven is good.  You make the choice.  You will be judged.


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## JFS (Mar 9, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> See your arrogance.  There are several documentaries and carbon dating data along with satelite photos that prove it is there.



Although I find it difficult to elevate this to an actual topic of discussion, to be polite I guess I can just ask you for proof of your claim.


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## crbrumbelow (Mar 9, 2011)

http://www.squidoo.com/noahsarkfound

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/04/27/noahs-ark-found-turkey-ararat/


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## atlashunter (Mar 9, 2011)

JFS said:


> Although I find it difficult to elevate this to an actual topic of discussion, to be polite I guess I can just ask you for proof of your claim.



Yes please cite your sources.


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## crbrumbelow (Mar 9, 2011)

And you cannot deny the fact that the dead sea scrolls that were found in 1947 match the KJB almost verbatim when translated to english.  God is real.

http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/dead-sea-scrolls-3.htm


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## JFS (Mar 9, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> [url]http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/04/27/noahs-ark-found-turkey-ararat/



1.  the article you linked has a update that debunks the claim:  http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/0...laim-doesnt-deter-believers/?test=latestnews#

2. I'm not taking the word of "squidoo" for anything 

3.  Let me know when you have aerial photo's of Santa's workshop.


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## atlashunter (Mar 9, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> http://www.squidoo.com/noahsarkfound
> 
> http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/04/27/noahs-ark-found-turkey-ararat/



Did you click on the "UPDATE: Experts Suspect Ark is a Hoax" link at the top of the Fox News article? Even the lead archeologist for the "Institute for Creation Research" doubts the claims. You went from saying it was proven to saying there were documentaries and carbon dating (which on it's own wouldn't prove a thing), to citing squidoo and a fox news article that says it is likely a hoax.



crbrumbelow said:


> And you cannot deny the fact that the dead sea scrolls that were found in 1947 match the KJB almost verbatim when translated to english.  God is real.



Venomfangx, is that you? 

<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/mjHTerrsjA0?version=3"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/mjHTerrsjA0?version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></object>


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## crbrumbelow (Mar 9, 2011)

JFS said:


> 1.  the article you linked has a update that debunks the claim:  http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/0...laim-doesnt-deter-believers/?test=latestnews#
> 
> 2. I'm not taking the word of "squidoo" for anything
> 
> 3.  Let me know when you have aerial photo's of Santa's workshop.



And you are just like the rest.  There is always going to be someone say "no".  There are many other sites.  Look it up.  You are on the internet.


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## JFS (Mar 9, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> And you cannot deny the fact that the dead sea scrolls that were found in 1947 match the KJB almost verbatim when translated to english.  God is real.




I personally don't think that the bible is dubious because it was mistranslated.  It can be a 100% accurate translation of gibberish, it's still gibberish.

But since you brought it up, the scrolls are fascinating from an apocryphal point of view.  Do you have an interest in gnosticism?


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## JFS (Mar 9, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> There is always going to be someone say "no".



I don't know what you mean.  Should I say Mormons are right just so I don't always say no to them too?  Bigfoot?  Elvis?  Loch Ness monster?  Crop circles (sorry Vowell  )?


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## Achilles Return (Mar 9, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> See your arrogance.  There are several documentaries and carbon dating data along with satelite photos that prove it is there.



You remain incorrect.


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## Achilles Return (Mar 9, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> Because the more you talk the more your ignorance is presented because you claim you know soo much about the Bible and how false you believe it is but you can do or say nothing to prove it.  The same goes for all your running buddies on here.  They ll claim the same and only know bits and pieces and use those few half accurate versions in their head to try and disprove the Bible.  The fact is you only know enough to get you in trouble.  You know He is real and dont want to answer to Him so you try and base what youre calling logic as a reason to claim that God isnt real.  Logic says He!! is hot, Heaven is good.  You make the choice.  You will be judged.



Thanks again for telling me what I know and don't know. While you're in my brain, would you mind doing my homework for me? 

If I have shown to be ignorant of something, please, by all means - point it out to me. If I have made a logical mistake, feel free to bring it to my attention. The reality is that you've shown that you're incapable of responding to any questions I brought up on doctrine, and that you merely resort to this pathetic 'YEAH WELL YOU KNOW GOD EXISTS AND YOU WILL BURN FOR YOUR CHOICE' defense when your arguments get trounced. Not to mention resorting to physical threats and the like. Way to shoot for the christian example there, chief.


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## Achilles Return (Mar 9, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> And you are just like the rest.  There is always going to be someone say "no".  There are many other sites.  Look it up.  You are on the internet.



Here he goes again:

crbrumbelow - makes extraordinary claim without sources

JSF - points out lack of sources

crbrumbelow - offers one non-academic source

JSF - points out that the source is factually wrong

crburmbelow - 'LOOK AT THIS NEGATIVE NANCY HERE'

Here's how this works, friend. When you make a positive argument, you support it with real sources. Not something out of a random news article that later gets retracted. If you can't back your own argument - don't bother arguing. And absolutely don't expect your opposition to do the fact finding for you. Do it yourself, or come off as a fool. 

This would be like me telling god doesn't exist and then telling you to find the proof for me. You would laugh with great reason.


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## Achilles Return (Mar 9, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> And you cannot deny the fact that the dead sea scrolls that were found in 1947 match the KJB almost verbatim when translated to english.  God is real.
> 
> http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/dead-sea-scrolls-3.htm



So then the bible was accurate when god sent a couple bears to murder 40 kids? Cool beans.


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## stringmusic (Mar 10, 2011)

JFS said:


> Starts off with a collection of crude fables and culminates in a ridiculous ghost story.  Flawed cover to cover, regardless of whether it has some Jewish history accurately thrown in.  It's like claiming the story of Rudolph the red nosed reindeer must be true because there really are reindeer and there really was a St Nick and there is a North Pole.  What's that get me too, 99.5%?



WOW I cannot believe you just debunked all the theologians who have dedicated their lives to studies like these. This could turn into a real money maker for you, just like Hitchens,Dawkins, etc., you too could make all your money of a God that you think doesnt exist.


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## JFS (Mar 10, 2011)

Consider it public service.


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## stringmusic (Mar 10, 2011)

JFS said:


> Consider it public service.


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## vowell462 (Mar 10, 2011)

JFS said:


> I don't know what you mean.  Should I say Mormons are right just so I don't always say no to them too?  Bigfoot?  Elvis?  Loch Ness monster?  Crop circles (sorry Vowell  )?



Ha! Man, you know those aliens are coming back to get us! The crop circles tell us so!


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