# How do I get saved?



## M80

If someone walked up to you and asked that question, what would you tell them?


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## barryl

Hey Brother M80, The first thing I'd tell them is the same thing I discussed with my Son which I was blessed to lead to the Lord Jesus Christ 3 mo's. ago. Romans 10:9-13 KJV AV It's "Heart" trouble!!


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## Ronnie T

I'd sit down with them and their Bible and instruct them in ALL the things of Christ (kinda like Philip up on that chariot).
Then I'd ask him if he can accept Jesus Christ as the Lord of his life?  If he would, I'd find someplace to get the good fellow baptized.
And me, or someone, would baptized him in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.


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## M80

barryl said:


> Hey Brother M80, The first thing I'd tell them is the same thing I discussed with my Son which I was blessed to lead to the Lord Jesus Christ 3 mo's. ago. Romans 10:9-13 KJV AV It's "Heart" trouble!!



Praise The Lord brother, I was able to lead my son to The Lord last year and we had a 12 year old girl saved Sunday morning in the church. It's the best thing next to my salvation when I can be next to someone as they get saved. 

With all the long discussion about eternal salvation I just wanted to hear what it is that saves someone


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## 1gr8bldr

I would say give up the roller coaster ride of trying to be good enough to be saved. The constant up and down of effort, failure, guilt. Rest from your work of building a temple good enough for God to dwell, tear it down, in baptismal, be raised a new where God is the builder.


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## barryl

mwilliams80 said:


> Praise The Lord brother, I was able to lead my son to The Lord last year and we had a 12 year old girl saved Sunday morning in the church. It's the best thing next to my salvation when I can be next to someone as they get saved.
> 
> With all the long discussion about eternal salvation I just wanted to hear what it is that saves someone


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## dawg2

mwilliams80 said:


> If someone walked up to you and asked that question, what would you tell them?



It's an ongoing process.  Not a singular event.


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## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> Praise The Lord brother, I was able to lead my son to The Lord last year and we had a 12 year old girl saved Sunday morning in the church. It's the best thing next to my salvation when I can be next to someone as they get saved.
> 
> With all the long discussion about eternal salvation I just wanted to hear what it is that saves someone



Have you ever done a search of the NT for the term "eternal salvation"?


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## rjcruiser

mwilliams80 said:


> With all the long discussion about eternal salvation I just wanted to hear what it is that saves someone



Hmm...interesting.

As far as the original question....

They have to recognize their need for a savior.
They must realize that Christ is the solution for their need.
They must repent of their sin.
They must make Christ Lord of their life.




dawg2 said:


> It's an ongoing process.  Not a singular event.



Mmmm...well...we're not going to agree on that one...so, I'll just let it be 



Ronnie T said:


> Have you ever done a search of the NT for the term "eternal salvation"?



I'm guessing it's right next to trinity.


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## M80

rjcruiser said:


> Hmm...interesting.
> 
> As far as the original question....
> 
> They have to recognize their need for a savior.
> They must realize that Christ is the solution for their need.
> They must repent of their sin.
> They must make Christ Lord of their life.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mmmm...well...we're not going to agree on that one...so, I'll just let it be
> 
> 
> 
> I'm guessing it's right next to trinity.



I like it a lot. Especially the trinity thing


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## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> If someone walked up to you and asked that question, what would you tell them?


I tell them that it is not a physical matter but a spiritual matter. That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Then I wait for a second question.


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## M80

gemcgrew said:


> I tell them that it is not a physical matter but a spiritual matter. That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
> 
> Then I wait for a second question.



Go on. Second question


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## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> Go on. Second question


There is not always a second question. It may be "what does that mean" or "how is one born of the spirit". In either case, "Ye must be born again" is the right answer. "It is not something you do, it is something God does for you. Your only hope is that the Holy Spirit will give you life. There are a lot of things you can do. You can go to church, reform your lifestyle, quit cussing, drinking and stealing. You can be a deacon, youth minister or a preacher. But you will not enter the kingdom of God unless you are born again".


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## Israel

You recognize the truth.
You receive that truth.
You respond to the truth.
After that...you learn all things are of God. Even your recognition of the truth to begin with.
And you tell others the truth.
And you never stop.


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## Ronnie T

A few years ago a young man came to my office, in middle of the week, saying he and his wife wanted to get baptized.  I didn't know the young man.  
After a brief discussion I learned that they wanted to get baptized just in case they killed by terrorist.  They wanted to ensure they would go to heaven.

Unfortunately, they knew nothing of Jesus and they weren't interested in listening.  I set up several times and dates to meet with them but they always cancelled.

I pray they've both accepted Christ now.
.


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## gemcgrew

Israel said:


> You recognize the truth.
> You receive that truth.
> You respond to the truth.
> After that...you learn all things are of God. Even your recognition of the truth to begin with.
> And you tell others the truth.
> And you never stop.


Amen!


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## hobbs27

mwilliams80 said:


> If someone walked up to you and asked that question, what would you tell them?



 I dont have a pre-planned answer for that...but it has been my experience that when God is working on one side He's also working on the other. In other words the same burden this person had to come ask me, " How do I get saved"? I also would have an answer that God had prepared and would be sharing this burden with the person, and we would feel a mutual spirit when discussing this....much like Stephen and the Eunich...both experienced Gods awesome power.


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## M80

gemcgrew said:


> There is not always a second question. It may be "what does that mean" or "how is one born of the spirit". In either case, "Ye must be born again" is the right answer. "It is not something you do, it is something God does for you. Your only hope is that the Holy Spirit will give you life. There are a lot of things you can do. You can go to church, reform your lifestyle, quit cussing, drinking and stealing. You can be a deacon, youth minister or a preacher. But you will not enter the kingdom of God unless you are born again".



Amen


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## M80

hobbs27 said:


> I dont have a pre-planned answer for that...but it has been my experience that when God is working on one side He's also working on the other. In other words the same burden this person had to come ask me, " How do I get saved"? I also would have an answer that God had prepared and would be sharing this burden with the person, and we would feel a mutual spirit when discussing this....much like Stephen and the Eunich...both experienced Gods awesome power.


Me and you are a lot alike. I agree 100% about not having a set answer. Most of us don't. I rely on The Lord for each circumstance, but mainly looking for how do we get saved


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## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> Me and you are a lot alike. I agree 100% about not having a set answer. Most of us don't. I rely on The Lord for each circumstance, but mainly looking for how do we get saved



Don't know if it will help the discussion but the following verses contain a 'one of a kind' statement concerning the subject.

Acts 2:46 Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.


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## barryl

Acts 16:30-31 Philippian Jailor 30- What must I do to be saved.


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## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Acts 16:30-31 Philippian Jailor 30- What must I do to be saved.



I thought Acts didn't apply to Christians.


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## M80

centerpin fan said:


> I thought Acts didn't apply to Christians.



I told you you have your way of sneaking in there


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## 04ctd

How to Become a Christian
(It is easy as A, B, C)

ADMIT: You are a Sinner.
"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23), and 

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”  (Romans 6:23).

BELIEVE: Jesus died for your sins.
"But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8)

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."  (John 3: 16)

CONFESS: Jesus as your Personal Savior.
“9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation..”  (Romans 10:9-10)



this is the _SHORT _answer....and the beginning...there is a lot of personal growth to be achieved also


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## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> I told you you have your way of sneaking in there



It's a fair point.


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## Artfuldodger

04ctd said:


> How to Become a Christian
> (It is easy as A, B, C)
> 
> ADMIT: You are a Sinner.
> "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23), and
> 
> "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”  (Romans 6:23).
> 
> BELIEVE: Jesus died for your sins.
> "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8)
> 
> "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."  (John 3: 16)
> 
> CONFESS: Jesus as your Personal Savior.
> “9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
> 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation..”  (Romans 10:9-10)
> 
> 
> 
> this is the _SHORT _answer....and the beginning...there is a lot of personal growth to be achieved also



Those are requirements from man. Isn't salvation from Grace alone? (Just being facetious)

Truthfully I would repeat what you said. Then I would tell them about being reborn and becoming a new man. 
Then I would tell them how to keep their new found salvation by learning what is required to inherit the Kingdom of God. I would have them read the teachings of Jesus which focuses on the Kingdom of God.


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## 04ctd

Artfuldodger said:


> Truthfully I would repeat what you said. Then I would tell them about being reborn and becoming a new man.
> Then I would tell them how to keep their new found salvation by learning what is required to inherit the Kingdom of God. I would have them read the teachings of Jesus which focuses on the Kingdom of God.



Mark 12:34 
_Now when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” But after that no one dared question Him_.



it is like that David Platt video where he says the sinners prayer by itself is not enough...you  must A & B before you C, then you must continue to grow afterwards 

Mark 4:8 
_But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.”_


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## formula1

*Re:*

First, you need to make sure they know what there asking!  Saved from what, might be the first question.  If the answer is about finding Christ, move forward with the next steps. If not, you might want to lead them to the right question.

Many good answers on here, but it boils down to one understanding that sin separates them from God and Christ came to bridge that gap. Upon that understanding, they need to repent from their sin and turn and trust Christ to cover there sin. If they agree, Christ has now covered their sin that kept them separated from God, and they now have the potential to follow Christ and grow in faith in Him. And they will receive the Holy Spirit to help them in their new life! And don't leave this out, because God coming into a life is the key to obtain the Power to truly turn and live for Him.


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## Artfuldodger

formula1 said:


> First, you need to make sure they know what there asking!  Saved from what, might be the first question.  If the answer is about finding Christ, move forward with the next steps. If not, you might want to lead them to the right question.
> 
> Many good answers on here, but it boils down to one understanding that sin separates them from God and Christ came to bridge that gap. Upon that understanding, they need to repent from their sin and turn and trust Christ to cover there sin. If they agree, Christ has now covered their sin that kept them separated from God, and they now have the potential to follow Christ and grow in faith in Him. And they will receive the Holy Spirit to help them in their new life! And don't leave this out, because God coming into a life is the key to obtain the Power to truly turn and live for Him.



That's a very good point about what is the person being saved from as in He11 or eternal death. Also where does he believe he will  spend eternity if saved.
Most definitely need to tell him about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I feel my Baptist Church I was saved in as a youth was lacking in that respect. It was just something I heard about from my Assembly of God, Pentecostal, and Holiness relatives. 
I do feel the Baptist are better at this now than then.


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## barryl

centerpin fan said:


> I thought Acts didn't apply to Christians.


 Acts 11:26 {Christians}


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## Ronnie T

formula1 said:


> First, you need to make sure they know what there asking!  Saved from what, might be the first question.  If the answer is about finding Christ, move forward with the next steps. If not, you might want to lead them to the right question.
> 
> Many good answers on here, but it boils down to one understanding that sin separates them from God and Christ came to bridge that gap. Upon that understanding, they need to repent from their sin and turn and trust Christ to cover there sin. If they agree, Christ has now covered their sin that kept them separated from God, and they now have the potential to follow Christ and grow in faith in Him. And they will receive the Holy Spirit to help them in their new life! And don't leave this out, because God coming into a life is the key to obtain the Power to truly turn and live for Him.





Real big AMEN.

True.  The idea that a youth group from N. Georgia can come down to Panama City, set up a booth out on the beach, ask a passerby if he/she wants to go to heaven, ask them "do you believe in Jesus?", then say a prayer for them,,,,,,,,, is gonna bring salvation into a person's life is naïve and immature.


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## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Acts 11:26 {Christians}



"And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch."

  I don't see your point.  In the immortal words of Hillary Clinton, "what difference does it make" what they were called?

When anybody uses a verse from Acts, you refer to it as a "transitional" book with questionable application to Christians.  However,when the OP is "how do I get saved", you respond with a verse from Acts.  

How do you determine what parts of Acts apply to Christians?


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## barryl

centerpin fan said:


> "And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch."
> 
> I don't see your point.  In the immortal words of Hillary Clinton, "what difference does it make" what they were called?
> 
> When anybody uses a verse from Acts, you refer to it as a "transitional" book with questionable application to Christians.  However,when the OP is "how do I get saved", you respond with a verse from Acts.
> 
> How do you determine what parts of Acts apply to Christians?


What's the point?  Peter was preaching the Kingdom sermon to "Pork Abstaining", "Temple Worshipping JEWS at the Feast of Penecost" Peter was fully expecting the covenants to be fulfilled {Acts 1:6 Kingdom to Isreal} Acts 2:22-24, 23-Him, being delivered by the determinate councel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24- Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. Also Acts 2:36!! Ahhh, you know how us "Modern Day Theologians" are. We just go around "rightly dividing the word of truth." 2 Tim. 2:15 KJV AV Still confused? Heres one difference,Acts 2:38 as opposed to 1 Tim. 1:13-16 {pattern verse 16}


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## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> Real big AMEN.
> 
> True.  The idea that a youth group from N. Georgia can come down to Panama City, set up a booth out on the beach, ask a passerby if he/she wants to go to heaven, ask them "do you believe in Jesus?", then say a prayer for them,,,,,,,,, is gonna bring salvation into a person's life is naïve and immature.



YES! And Dangerous.


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## gordon 2

Ronnie T said:


> I'd sit down with them and their Bible and instruct them in ALL the things of Christ (kinda like Philip up on that chariot).
> Then I'd ask him if he can accept Jesus Christ as the Lord of his life?  If he would, I'd find someplace to get the good fellow baptized.
> And me, or someone, would baptized him in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.




This... I never thought bout Philip and the eunuch  and the chariot in this way before...  It is a good place to be. Thanks.


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## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> What's the point?  Peter was preaching the Kingdom sermon to "Pork Abstaining", "Temple Worshipping JEWS ...



... and he preached to bacon-loving Gentiles in Acts 10.  There's only one gospel.  It doesn't change with the audience.


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## barryl

centerpin fan said:


> ... and he preached to bacon-loving Gentiles in Acts 10.  There's only one gospel.  It doesn't change with the audience.


Sorry M80 for hi jackin' your thread. Acts Ch. 10 is still a mystery{verse 17} to {The Apostle to the Jews} Peter.{Gal. 2:7-8} Acts 1:6 "lord, wilt thou at this time restore {again} the kingdom to Isreal." I just can't seem to find anywhere in Acts Ch.2 the Gospel of Grace 1 Cor. 15:1-4. God changed the program because the "House of Isreal" {everyone of you} would not repent and be baptized. He just put Isreal on hold for 1900+ yrs. That would be a good thread "Double Application" of scripture.


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## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> Sorry M80 for hi jackin' your thread. Acts Ch. 10 is still a mystery{verse 17} to {The Apostle to the Jews} Peter.{Gal. 2:7-8} Acts 1:6 "lord, wilt thou at this time restore {again} the kingdom to Isreal." I just can't seem to find anywhere in Acts Ch.2 the Gospel of Grace 1 Cor. 15:1-4. God changed the program because the "House of Isreal" {everyone of you} would not repent and be baptized. He just put Isreal on hold for 1900+ yrs. That would be a good thread "Double Application" of scripture.



Ask any of those Jews on that day and they'll tell you that they can see grace in their salvation.
.


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## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> What's the point?  Peter was preaching the Kingdom sermon to "Pork Abstaining", "Temple Worshipping JEWS at the Feast of Penecost" Peter was fully expecting the covenants to be fulfilled {Acts 1:6 Kingdom to Isreal} Acts 2:22-24, 23-Him, being delivered by the determinate councel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24- Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. Also Acts 2:36!! Ahhh, you know how us "Modern Day Theologians" are. We just go around "rightly dividing the word of truth." 2 Tim. 2:15 KJV AV Still confused? Heres one difference,Acts 2:38 as opposed to 1 Tim. 1:13-16 {pattern verse 16}



I don't get it.  Sorry, I think it's my age.  Too much stuffs going over my head lately. 


1 Timothy 1:13-16
13 even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; 14 and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus. 15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. 16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.


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## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Ask any of those Jews on that day and they'll tell you that they can see grace in their salvation.
> .


I thought he was being sarcastic. I see 3000 people being converted by the grace of God.


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## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> I thought he was being sarcastic. I see 3000 people being converted by the grace of God.



Okay.  So now I'm embarrassed.


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## barryl

Ronnie T said:


> Okay.  So now I'm embarrassed.


I would be to, Just how many of them "JEWISH" believers were under Law? I said under Law! You boys seem to forget, it's easy to figure out your theology{Denomination}


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## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Okay.  So now I'm embarrassed.


Don't be. I now know that he was serious.


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## Israel

The gospel saves the unbeliever. The good unbelieving Jew...striving "under law" to put God in his debt, The bad unbelieving Jew, striving again to put God in his debt...just with less Tanakh words, the good unbelieving christian, striving to put God in his debt by showing him what a good disciple he can be and using lots of quotes from Paul et al, and the bad unbelieving christian who doesn't know what Go Eat Pop Corn means in his trying to order Galatians, Ephesians, Philipians and Colosians.
The good unbelieving atheist who sends money every month to feed the children, and the bad unbelieving atheist who sets up fake "Feed the Children" foundations.
One Lord, savior of all. One good news to come to, one good news to preach. All is forgiven, come home. Your brother took up the slack.


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## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> I would be to, Just how many of them "JEWISH" believers were under Law? I said under Law! You boys seem to forget, it's easy to figure out your theology{Denomination}



I'll say it again:



centerpin fan said:


> There's only one gospel.  It doesn't change with the audience.



Paul says there is "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" (NIV UV.)


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## gemcgrew

barryl said:


> I would be to, Just how many of them "JEWISH" believers were under Law? I said under Law! You boys seem to forget, it's easy to figure out your theology{Denomination}


Barryl, are you saying that what the believing Jews experienced in Acts 2 is different from what believing gentiles experienced in Acts 11?


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## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> Barryl, are you saying that what the believing Jews experienced in Acts 2 is different from what believing gentiles experienced in Acts 11?



Inquiring minds want to know.


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## M80

Israel said:


> The gospel saves the unbeliever. The good unbelieving Jew...striving "under law" to put God in his debt, The bad unbelieving Jew, striving again to put God in his debt...just with less Tanakh words, the good unbelieving christian, striving to put God in his debt by showing him what a good disciple he can be and using lots of quotes from Paul et al, and the bad unbelieving christian who doesn't know what Go Eat Pop Corn means in his trying to order Galatians, Ephesians, Philipians and Colosians.
> The good unbelieving atheist who sends money every month to feed the children, and the bad unbelieving atheist who sets up fake "Feed the Children" foundations.
> One Lord, savior of all. One good news to come to, one good news to preach. All is forgiven, come home. Your brother took up the slack.



Amen


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## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> Barryl, are you saying that what the believing Jews experienced in Acts 2 is different from what believing gentiles experienced in Acts 11?



Bumped for barryl.

I'm interested in an answer for this because of a Youtube video I recently watched (not the same one that caused Benghazi -- but I digress.)

Anyway, this minister (who I'd bet would agree with barryl 99% of the time), absolutely, positively answered gemcrew's question with a "yes".


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## SemperFiDawg

Ronnie T said:


> A few years ago a young man came to my office, in middle of the week, saying he and his wife wanted to get baptized.  I didn't know the young man.
> After a brief discussion I learned that they wanted to get baptized just in case they killed by terrorist.  They wanted to ensure they would go to heaven.
> 
> Unfortunately, they knew nothing of Jesus and they weren't interested in listening.  I set up several times and dates to meet with them but they always cancelled.
> 
> I pray they've both accepted Christ now.
> .




Had a guy come into the church about 2 years ago on a Wednesday night, because he had got drunk, got in a fight and was running from the Law.  Hated to make him leave cause he was about the only one that had remembered to bring his Bible.


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## Ronnie T

SemperFiDawg said:


> Had a guy come into the church about 2 years ago on a Wednesday night, because he had got drunk, got in a fight and was running from the Law.  Hated to make him leave cause he was about the only one that had remembered to bring his Bible.



Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.


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## SemperFiDawg

Oh and I forgot the best part.  My Sr. pastor was there that night to kinda conduct an informal assessment of how I was doing in planting our new Church.


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## JFS

mwilliams80 said:


> With all the long discussion about eternal salvation I just wanted to hear what it is that saves someone



Some folks will tell you it's by saying 'there is no god apart from God, and Muhammad is the Messenger of God.'


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## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> Bumped for barryl.
> 
> I'm interested in an answer for this because of a Youtube video I recently watched (not the same one that caused Benghazi -- but I digress.)
> 
> Anyway, this minister (who I'd bet would agree with barryl 99% of the time), absolutely, positively answered gemcrew's question with a "yes".



I never understood the concept of "this book is for Jews or this pertains to only a certain time period until I started reading about dispensationalism.
One thing I have picked up on is "rightly dividing the word of truth"

Now at least I can better understand what it means as in this comparison of Paul and the Apostles in Acts:

http://www.heavendwellers.com/hd_paul_and_the_12.htm


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## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> ... until I started reading about dispensationalism.
> One thing I have picked up on is "rightly dividing the word of truth"



Yep, they do love that phrase.


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## Big7

I'm sitting this one out!

MAYBE?,,, We will see.


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## Mako22

Only two answers when you boil it down, either the way of Cain (works) or the way of Able (faith).

Most in this forum are full of dead religion and have chosen the way of Cain to the detriment of their souls.

Its faith minus nothing and plus nothing that saves a man's soul from...............


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## Artfuldodger

Woodsman69 said:


> Only two answers when you boil it down, either the way of Cain (works) or the way of Able (faith).
> 
> Most in this forum are full of dead religion and have chosen the way of Cain to the detriment of their souls.
> 
> Its faith minus nothing and plus nothing that saves a man's soul from...............



I thought it was Grace only. Nothing but the grace of God.


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## Israel

A drowning man doesn't have to be told much of what to do. At least if he believes there's help around.
You know, I think a child would flail around and yell help...even if you dropped him in the middle of the ocean.


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## gordon 2

dawg2 said:


> It's an ongoing process.  Not a singular event.



Just want to tell you bros that I read your post and that I pay attention to what you have to say here. I would suggest that salvation, redemption, decipleship, and the term into the beloved are synonyms--if we chose to rid religious warfare out of them. To grow in faith is an ongoing process,( kind of oxymoronic eh?) for everyone. 

Remember the nun video you had awile back, "Every christian gets to heaven if they follow the teachings of their church. In heaven there are many mansions, it is just that some will get the broom closet besides the elevator." Personally I'd settle for that...


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## Bama4me

Look up different phrases which refer to "being saved" in a bible concordance and you'll find several ideas.

Acts 16:31 - "believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved."

Acts 3:19 - "repent therefore and turn back, and your sins will be blotted out (saved)"

Romans 10:10 - "with the mouth one confesses and is saved."

Acts 22:16 - "arise and be baptized and wash away your sins"

IF a person only looks at one of these passages, he/she may conclude that only one of these ideas is necessary to salvation.  However, IF a person understands the whole of a subject needs to be considered when studying a biblical concept, he/she will conclude that all these things must be done to obey the gospel... that it's not just one, but all that are important.  In doing these things, we submit ourselves to God's will in regards to our initial salvation.

Regarding what one must "do" after being initially saved... well, that's in the long thread down the page.


----------



## barryl

Bama4me said:


> Look up different phrases which refer to "being saved" in a bible concordance and you'll find several ideas.
> 
> Acts 16:31 - "believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved."
> 
> Acts 3:19 - "repent therefore and turn back, and your sins will be blotted out (saved)"
> 
> Romans 10:10 - "with the mouth one confesses and is saved."
> 
> Acts 22:16 - "arise and be baptized and wash away your sins"
> 
> IF a person only looks at one of these passages, he/she may conclude that only one of these ideas is necessary to salvation.  However, IF a person understands the whole of a subject needs to be considered when studying a biblical concept, he/she will conclude that all these things must be done to obey the gospel... that it's not just one, but all that are important.  In doing these things, we submit ourselves to God's will in regards to our initial salvation.
> 
> Regarding what one must "do" after being initially saved... well, that's in the long thread down the page.


This is one of the old sayings, "saying it don't make it so." A devil can repent, confess, believe, and be baptized and go to the "pit." Matt. 27:3, John 6:70-71 KJV AV You are right about seeing what all the scripture says about all the scripture. It's Heart trouble! Romans Ch.10


----------



## barryl

gemcgrew said:


> Barryl, are you saying that what the believing Jews experienced in Acts 2 is different from what believing gentiles experienced in Acts 11?


 No. There is a difference in how salvation is obtained, faith & works- faith plus nothing.  I have this calvinist friend that I have discussed this type of thing with. His story, "I just don't believe the dispensation thing." I know his theology, he believes everybody{elect} was "in Christ" before the foundation of the world. For the inquiring minds,as far as Acts goes, 1 Isreal-Acts Ch. 2 "what shall we do?"  2 The converted sinner-Acts Ch. 9 "Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?" 3 The unsaved Gentile-Acts Ch. 16 "What must I do to be saved?"


----------



## Bama4me

barryl said:


> This is one of the old sayings, "saying it don't make it so." A devil can repent, confess, believe, and be baptized and go to the "pit." Matt. 27:3, John 6:70-71 KJV AV You are right about seeing what all the scripture says about all the scripture. It's Heart trouble! Romans Ch.10



Could you show me some "book/chapter/verse" for your statement "a devil can repent, confess, believe, and be baptized and go to the pit"?  I find in James 2:19 that the demons believe... but nowhere have I found that demons repented, confessed, and were baptized.

Regarding your reference to Romans, I'm sure you have considered that prior to the writing of chapter 10, there was the writing of 6:1-4... and 2:4. 

I do agree with you on one thing though... what a person is to do to accept God's grace initially is different that what he/she must do to continue to receive God's grace.  That's why I referenced the OSAS thread earlier.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I've read that a newly baptised person could  being more vunerable to evil spirits and could thus be tricked into being baptised in the name of an evil spirit instead of the Holy Spirit. This would be especially true if the preacher wasn't a real Christian.


----------



## barryl

Bama4me said:


> Could you show me some "book/chapter/verse" for your statement "a devil can repent, confess, believe, and be baptized and go to the pit"?  I find in James 2:19 that the demons believe... but nowhere have I found that demons repented, confessed, and were baptized.
> 
> Regarding your reference to Romans, I'm sure you have considered that prior to the writing of chapter 10, there was the writing of 6:1-4... and 2:4.
> 
> I do agree with you on one thing though... what a person is to do to accept God's grace initially is different that what he/she must do to continue to receive God's grace.  That's why I referenced the OSAS thread earlier.


Heres one quick one.  Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs that were done. KJV AV


----------



## Bama4me

barryl said:


> Heres one quick one.  Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs that were done. KJV AV



And where does it say that Simon was a devil?  Being a sorcerer in his day did not equate to being a devil.


----------



## panfried0419

Accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and never denying the holy spirit. That to me is being saved. Baptism is more a ritual, not a rite of passage. I am baptized via poured not submerged. I don't feel that baptism is a requirement for being saved.


----------



## barryl

barryl said:


> Heres one quick one.  Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs that were done. KJV AV


Bama,I noticed you paid no attention to these scriptures, Matt. 27:3, John 6:69-70 Judas Iscariot ? What about the O.T. Pharoah ? Matt. 8:29 ? Mk. 1:24,3:11, 5:7, Luke 4:34,41 Acts 19:15. Pertaining to Acts 8:13, v13-baptized,belief, confessed v24, and repented v22. "Study to show thyself approved" 2 Tim. 2:15 KJV AV


----------



## Bama4me

panfried0419 said:


> Accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and never denying the holy spirit. That to me is being saved. Baptism is more a ritual, not a rite of passage. I am baptized via poured not submerged. I don't feel that baptism is a requirement for being saved.



Not trying to be antagonistic, but can you point me to the place in the Scriptures where people were ever saved by being told "accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?


----------



## centerpin fan

Bama4me said:


> ... can you point me to the place in the Scriptures where people were ever saved by being told "accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?


----------



## Bama4me

barryl said:


> Bama,I noticed you paid no attention to these scriptures, Matt. 27:3, John 6:69-70 Judas Iscariot ? What about the O.T. Pharoah ? Matt. 8:29 ? Mk. 1:24,3:11, 5:7, Luke 4:34,41 Acts 19:15. Pertaining to Acts 8:13, v13-baptized,belief, confessed v24, and repented v22. "Study to show thyself approved" 2 Tim. 2:15 KJV AV



None of these people were a "devil" who lived on this side of the cross... in the Christian age.  You might try to put that title on Simon, but being a person who made a living by being a sorcerer is FAR from being a literal devil.

You're quote earlier was "a devil can believe, repent, confess, and be baptized and still be lost".  I'm asking where in Scripture you find devils doing those things.  Again, the only thing I find is James 2:21.  

BTW, the word "study" in the KJV of 2 Timothy 2:15 does not mean "study your bible".  It means "be careful" (to do something) or "give diligence" (to do something).  Folks for many years have misrepresented that word from the KJV... though the latter part of the verse actually DOES focus on studying one's bible.


----------



## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> "Study to show thyself approved" 2 Tim. 2:15 KJV AV



“Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.”
 –2 Tim. 2:15

You use that verse a lot as if it pertains to dividing dispensations, grace, and works. You also use it as if it has something to do with Bible study.
It actually means to study yourself to know if God would approve. The word “study” here is used with very much the same thought as when the Apostle says, “Study to be quiet.”
If you are doing good works then you should not be ashamed. Now rightly dividing the Word of Truth does pertain to the scriptures but it's not about dispensations either. It's using what you have learned for each daily situation we encounter. 
We read, we learn, but then we meditate about what we've learned. Then we can prove our learning to God by our actions as a workman who isn't ashamed.


----------



## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> Now rightly dividing the Word of Truth does pertain to the scriptures but it's not about dispensations either.



Art... it's not all about understanding dispensations of the bible, but it includes it.

There are three "eras" (time periods) in the bible.

(1) The Patriarchal Era - God communicated His will directly to the males of each household; during this era, both Jews/Gentiles were accountable to this style of communication from God; OT times of Genesis - Exodus 20.

(2) The Mosaical Era - God continued to communicate His will to Gentiles by speaking directly to the males of each household; for Jews, however, the became accountable to the Law of Moses; thus, there were two systems by which God communicated His will to people; this period in the bible begins in Exodus 20 and ends in the book of John.

(3) The Christian Era - God once again established only one law for both Jews and Gentiles, given through His Son and inspired writers of the NT; the "Christian Era" began with the book of Acts and will end when Christ returns.

As a person living in the Christian Era, I can't cite passages from the Old Testament as "authoritative" in my life today because I'm not under that law - I won't be judged by the Patriarchal or Mosaical systems.  Certainly, that's part of "rightly dividing" the word of God... understanding that some of is (and is not) authoritative in my life today.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Bama4me said:


> Art... it's not all about understanding dispensations of the bible, but it includes it.
> 
> There are three "eras" (time periods) in the bible.
> 
> (1) The Patriarchal Era - God communicated His will directly to the males of each household; during this era, both Jews/Gentiles were accountable to this style of communication from God; OT times of Genesis - Exodus 20.
> 
> (2) The Mosaical Era - God continued to communicate His will to Gentiles by speaking directly to the males of each household; for Jews, however, the became accountable to the Law of Moses; thus, there were two systems by which God communicated His will to people; this period in the bible begins in Exodus 20 and ends in the book of John.
> 
> (3) The Christian Era - God once again established only one law for both Jews and Gentiles, given through His Son and inspired writers of the NT; the "Christian Era" began with the book of Acts and will end when Christ returns.
> 
> As a person living in the Christian Era, I can't cite passages from the Old Testament as "authoritative" in my life today because I'm not under that law - I won't be judged by the Patriarchal or Mosaical systems.  Certainly, that's part of "rightly dividing" the word of God... understanding that some of is (and is not) authoritative in my life today.



I do understand that "rightly dividing" does include knowing who God was communicating to. I don't know enough about the dispensations to say for sure how they pertain to me. 
I have guestions such as, were there no laws before Moses? Why do we have New Testament commandments or it that the "one law" you are talking about? In the Mosaical Era, why did God seperate the way he communicated his will to Jews and Gentiles? By "communicated his will" you mean "Laws"?


----------



## panfried0419

Bama4me said:


> Not trying to be antagonistic, but can you point me to the place in the Scriptures where people were ever saved by being told "accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?



I don't think there is enough room to post all the scripture where it says "follow me(being Jesus), accept me, believe in me. If you have read the Gospels and Acts you pretty much will find it.  But I see your bait and I'm not biting. I'm not a scripture poster to answer questions about my faith nice try though.


----------



## Bama4me

panfried0419 said:


> I don't think there is enough room to post all the scripture where it says "follow me(being Jesus), accept me, believe in me. If you have read the Gospels and Acts you pretty much will find it.  But I see your bait and I'm not biting. I'm not a scripture poster to answer questions about my faith nice try though.



Good enough... the usual response I get when I ask this question.  Just have always wondered where anyone in Acts or anywhere else was told to do this... or what is included in "making Jesus one's Lord and Savior."


----------



## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> I do understand that "rightly dividing" does include knowing who God was communicating to. I don't know enough about the dispensations to say for sure how they pertain to me.
> I have guestions such as, were there no laws before Moses? Why do we have New Testament commandments or it that the "one law" you are talking about? In the Mosaical Era, why did God seperate the way he communicated his will to Jews and Gentiles? By "communicated his will" you mean "Laws"?



Romans 15:4 states that things written "beforehand" (the OT) was written for our instruction... and 1 Corinthians 10:11 indicates things written then provide us examples to learn from.  Thus, there's great value in studying the OT even though those laws don't possess authority over us.

An illustration of this is the 4th of the 10 Commandments (keep the Sabbath holy).  Since Jesus nailed the Law of Moses to the cross (Colossians 2:14), he made that Law obsolete.  Thus, the Sabbath regulation is not bound on any Christians today.  However, though Christians aren't obligated to obey it, we CAN learn something.  Rest is beneficial for human beings - so much so that God made it a requirement for his people.

Will... laws... however one refers to them, God communicated to people what they needed to do in order to be saved and stay saved.  Prior to Moses, He communicated directly to patriarchs of families.  Men like Noah, Abram, etc. were told by God specific things to do.  However, not all were told the same thing (I.e. only Noah was told to build an ark, only Abram was told to leave his homeland).  The consistent thread among them all was the component of faith... they trusted God enough to do what He asked of them.

Regarding "why" God mandated a time when there were two different laws for mankind (Mosaical), much of it seems to relate to preparing the way for Christ.  Galatians 3:24 tells us that the Mosaical law was a "tutor" to bring us to Christ.  One thing uniquely different about the Law of Moses was that is was a "theocracy" - it combined religion AND government into one entity.  That's why you find so many "crimes" and "penalties" described - it would be the Israelites' law when they settled in the promised land after leaving Egyptian captivity.

Regarding the "one law"... that's one way to describe the law of Christ.  I'd suggest you read Ephesians 2:11-16... the "two becoming one" references the abolishment of the two laws in existence when Christ died, and the "better covenant" He established in their stead (Hebrews 8:6).

Practically, this is what results.  You and I will not be judged according the Patriarchal law... nor will we be judged by the Law of Moses.  We'll be judged according to the law of Christ.  Thus, we try to understand what the NT says about various matters.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Bama4me said:


> Regarding the "one law"... that's one way to describe the law of Christ.  I'd suggest you read Ephesians 2:11-16... the "two becoming one" references the abolishment of the two laws in existence when Christ died, and the "better covenant" He established in their stead (Hebrews 8:6).
> We'll be judged according to the law of Christ.  Thus, we try to understand what the NT says about various matters.


 
I read the verses in Ephesians and the two becoming one was the Jews and Gentiles, not two laws. Unless you are referring to the law given to Gentiles and the law given to Jews coming together at Christ's death. I can see it that way. (i'm slow)
The better promise in Hebrews 8:6, why didn't he just give us the better promise from the beginning?
Matthew 5:18 If Jesus fulfilled the law, why do we still have commandments under the "better covenant?"
Again why didn't God just give us the "better covenant" if he knew we could never follow the "worse covenant?"
As for as being judged by the "Law of Christ," if the law has been fulfilled, what's left to be judged by? If there is no law, there is no sin.


----------



## headbust

mwilliams80 said:


> If someone walked up to you and asked that question, what would you tell them?


one must confess to GOD that youre a sinner and that you need him to come into your life and save you from your sins.thats step 1 after youve done that asked to be baptised in the name of JESUS for the remission of your sins. after that you are born again,then the scriptures say go on to no the lord,means learn of him by the preaching of the GOSPEL.


----------



## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> I read the verses in Ephesians and the two becoming one was the Jews and Gentiles, not two laws. Unless you are referring to the law given to Gentiles and the law given to Jews coming together at Christ's death. I can see it that way. (i'm slow)
> The better promise in Hebrews 8:6, why didn't he just give us the better promise from the beginning?
> Matthew 5:18 If Jesus fulfilled the law, why do we still have commandments under the "better covenant?"
> Again why didn't God just give us the "better covenant" if he knew we could never follow the "worse covenant?"



Tough questions... will try though.  As to why God didn't begin with the better covenant first, the best answer I know to give is Galatians 4:4-5.  That passage tells us that Jesus came "in the fullness of time" - the timing evidently was "just right."  Another insight might be provided in Romans 6:7-25.  There, Paul shared that he experienced frustration trying to perfectly obey the Law of Moses (man woukd realize he couldn't earn hus salvation?).  Add to that Galatians 3:24 and I think it's clear God had a reason for laying things out the way He did - though we probably can't grasp the entirety of it.

I think your question about Matthew 5:18 likely has an answer in Galatians 3:24 and the work of prophets.  The design of the Mosaical law was intended to "bring people to Christ" and prophets spoke of the coming Messiah.  Thus, everything about the law and prophets would be ultimately fulfilled (completed) in Christ.  

As far as why Christ's law contains commandments in light of these things, not sure.  I'd think, though, that the idea in Jeremiah 10:23 and Proverbs 14:12 probably has a LOT to with it.


----------



## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> I read the verses in Ephesians and the two becoming one was the Jews and Gentiles, not two laws. Unless you are referring to the law given to Gentiles and the law given to Jews coming together at Christ's death. I can see it that way. (i'm slow)



Forgot about this one.  Yes... in abolishing the two laws and establishing His own, Christ effectively created a way to unite Jews and Gentiles.  The two laws were what made the distinction... and Scripture bears out the Jews took a lot of pride in being elevated to "God's chosen race" over the Gentiles.  See Romans 2 as an example of what I'm saying here.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Bama4me said:


> Good enough... the usual response I get when I ask this question.  Just have always wondered where anyone in Acts or anywhere else was told to do this... or what is included in "making Jesus one's Lord and Savior."



I would agree with Panfried, we must also make Jesus our Lord. I'm assuming you don't believe discipleship is a requirement for Salvation.
I'll take the bait. I might spit it out but I at least want to know what it taste like.


----------



## M80

headbust said:


> one must confess to GOD that youre a sinner and that you need him to come into your life and save you from your sins.thats step 1 after youve done that asked to be baptised in the name of JESUS for the remission of your sins. after that you are born again,then the scriptures say go on to no the lord,means learn of him by the preaching of the GOSPEL.



Explain step two. Tell me how lake, creek, or county water washes away your sins


----------



## barryl

mwilliams80 said:


> Explain step two. Tell me how lake, creek, or county water washes away your sins


M80, you beat me to it! I want to know to!!


----------



## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> I would agree with Panfried, we must also make Jesus our Lord. I'm assuming you don't believe discipleship is a requirement for Salvation.
> I'll take the bait. I might spit it out but I at least want to know what it taste like.



Never said that... just wanted to know a passage where it is said like that in the New Testament.  Peter plainly said in the first gospel message preached in Acts (2:36) that God made Jesus "both Lord and Christ".  If we want Jesus to be our "Savior" (meaning of Christ), we must also allow Him to be "Master" (meaning of Lord) of our life.  It's not a "pick one and leave the other"... it's a package deal.  

However, after people in Jerusalem were told that Jesus WAS "Lord and Christ", they asked Peter and the rest of the apostles what they should do in response to what had been preached.  Peter didn't say "you've got to make Jesus your Lord and Savior"... nor do you find any example in the book of Acts where people were ever told that.

It's not that we don't do that in principle... but what ideas are included in "making Jesus my Lord and Savior?"  The word of God plainly says followers of Christ should be "disciples" (Matthew 28:19).


----------



## barryl

Bama4me said:


> None of these people were a "devil" who lived on this side of the cross... in the Christian age.  You might try to put that title on Simon, but being a person who made a living by being a sorcerer is FAR from being a literal devil.
> 
> You're quote earlier was "a devil can believe, repent, confess, and be baptized and still be lost".  I'm asking where in Scripture you find devils doing those things.  Again, the only thing I find is James 2:21.
> 
> BTW, the word "study" in the KJV of 2 Timothy 2:15 does not mean "study your bible".  It means "be careful" (to do something) or "give diligence" (to do something).  Folks for many years have misrepresented that word from the KJV... though the latter part of the verse actually DOES focus on studying one's bible.


Hey bama, appreciate the lesson on how God isn't able to preserve his word in english. See, I believe I have the inspired word of God in my hand, in english evidently you don't. Now, here is another place in the NT scripture concerning "sorcery". Acts 13:1-12 Verse 6-Elymas Barjesus- false prophet   Verse 10, you mean a child of the devil ain't one? Tell ya' what, I'll just stick with and believe the KJV AV,my final authority in all matters.


----------



## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> Explain step two. Tell me how lake, creek, or county water washes away your sins





barryl said:


> M80, you beat me to it! I want to know to!!



There are loads of baptism threads in the archives.


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Hey bama, appreciate the lesson on how God isn't able to preserve his word in english. See, I believe I have the inspired word of God in my hand, in english evidently you don't.



C'mon.


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> Explain step two. Tell me how lake, creek, or county water washes away your sins



No water cleanses people of sin... it's the blood of Christ.  1 Peter 3:21 clearly explains that the power to forgive sin is NOT in the water.  The question is "where does one make contact with the blood of Christ?"

Ephesians 1:7 states that "In Christ" we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses."  IF forgiveness of sins is found "in Christ", we should ask how a person gets "in Christ".  Galatians 3:27 says a person gets "into Christ" by being baptized.  Thus, you see Acts 22:16 - Ananias telling Saul, "Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins".  It's also why Revelation 1:5 states Christ "washed us from our own sins in His blood"... why 1 Corinthians 6:11 places "washed" prior to "sanctification" and "justification"... why Hebrews 10:22 said bodies of believers had been "washed with pure water"... and why Jesus said a person had to "be born of the water and the Spirit" to enter the kingdom of heaven (John 3:3).

No sir... the power is not in the water my friend.  It's in the blood of Christ.  However, God has specified that Christ's blood will cleanse us when we submit to meeting Him at baptism.  Why there and not somewhere else (like in belief, prayer, etc.)?  I don't know... I can't answer for God.


----------



## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> Explain step two. Tell me how lake, creek, or county water washes away your sins



Look at the scripture and you can explain it...

Acts 2:38 
Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 22:16 
Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.’

Romans 6:3 
Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?  4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Galatians 3:27 
For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Colossians 2:11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

1 Peter 3:21 
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,


----------



## Bama4me

barryl said:


> Hey bama, appreciate the lesson on how God isn't able to preserve his word in english. See, I believe I have the inspired word of God in my hand, in english evidently you don't. Now, here is another place in the NT scripture concerning "sorcery". Acts 13:1-12 Verse 6-Elymas Barjesus- false prophet   Verse 10, you mean a child of the devil ain't one? Tell ya' what, I'll just stick with and believe the KJV AV,my final authority in all matters.



I haven't implied God "isn't able to preserve His word in English".  I believe God HAS preserved His word today... but He didn't do so through miraculous means (by direct inspiration).  What YOU are saying is this:
"God CANNOT preserve His word without using miracles... He can't accomplish this through His providential hand."

I asked you to show me in Scripture where it says what you claimed it said... that a devil believed, repented, confessed, and was baptized.  Barjesus did NONE of those things in that passage!


----------



## hobbs27

Matthew 3:11

I indeed baptize you with water unto
repentance. but he that cometh after
me is mightier than I, whose shoes I
am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize
you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:


This one gives me chill bumps....


----------



## M80

centerpin fan said:


> There are loads of baptism threads in the archives.



I know I shouldn't have. Just trying to help someone out


----------



## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> Matthew 3:11
> 
> I indeed baptize you with water unto
> repentance. but he that cometh after
> me is mightier than I, whose shoes I
> am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize
> you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
> 
> 
> This one gives me chill bumps....



Know you're implying that baptism is always "baptism of the Holy Spirit" here, but what about the "baptism of fire"?  Is it one and the same baptism... a second baptism... and what exactly does "fire" mean?  Have never heard anyone explain that part of the verse before.


----------



## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> Look at the scripture and you can explain it...
> 
> Acts 2:38
> Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
> 
> Acts 22:16
> Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.’
> 
> Romans 6:3
> Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?  4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
> 
> Galatians 3:27
> For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
> 
> Colossians 2:11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
> 
> 1 Peter 3:21
> Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,





mwilliams80 said:


> I know I shouldn't have. Just trying to help someone out



Really.  Why don't you explain it?


----------



## hobbs27

Bama4me said:


> Know you're implying that baptism is always "baptism of the Holy Spirit" here, but what about the "baptism of fire"?  Is it one and the same baptism... a second baptism... and what exactly does "fire" mean?  Have never heard anyone explain that part of the verse before.



Without studying it in depth, I'm thinking one of the same. I picture fire coming down from heaven as mentioned several times in the OT. Symbolical though.

What's your thoughts on the verse and its meaning?


----------



## M80

Ronnie T said:


> Really.  Why don't you explain it?



I just got done doing a study on this. I will start a new thread on it. I don't know if I will tonight or not cause I've got some things to do, and me and my wife are going off tomorrow and coming back Saturday.


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## M80

hobbs27 said:


> Without studying it in depth, I'm thinking one of the same. I picture fire coming down from heaven as mentioned several times in the OT. Symbolical though.
> 
> What's your thoughts on the verse and its meaning?



Two ways we can look at this verse. He talks about burning the chaffs, but I've always looked at it as that fire he puts on the inside on us. That fire may burn low sometimes when our faith is weak, but I sure like being around a Christian when they are in fire for god


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## Artfuldodger

Bama4me said:


> No water cleanses people of sin... it's the blood of Christ.  1 Peter 3:21 clearly explains that the power to forgive sin is NOT in the water.  The question is "where does one make contact with the blood of Christ?"
> 
> Ephesians 1:7 states that "In Christ" we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses."  IF forgiveness of sins is found "in Christ", we should ask how a person gets "in Christ".  Galatians 3:27 says a person gets "into Christ" by being baptized.  Thus, you see Acts 22:16 - Ananias telling Saul, "Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins".  It's also why Revelation 1:5 states Christ "washed us from our own sins in His blood"... why 1 Corinthians 6:11 places "washed" prior to "sanctification" and "justification"... why Hebrews 10:22 said bodies of believers had been "washed with pure water"... and why Jesus said a person had to "be born of the water and the Spirit" to enter the kingdom of heaven (John 3:3).
> 
> No sir... the power is not in the water my friend.  It's in the blood of Christ.  However, God has specified that Christ's blood will cleanse us when we submit to meeting Him at baptism.  Why there and not somewhere else (like in belief, prayer, etc.)?  I don't know... I can't answer for God.



I thought being born of water and the Spirit was about our two births, not baptism.


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## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> Without studying it in depth, I'm thinking one of the same. I picture fire coming down from heaven as mentioned several times in the OT. Symbolical though.
> 
> What's your thoughts on the verse and its meaning?



Never really thought about the second part of the verse prior to you posting it earlier.  I've heard many utilize the passage to prove people today are baptized with the Holy Spirit, but have never heard any of them explain being "baptized by fire".

There are some things I do think we can see when we're examining the verse in its context.  First, John did not say that Jesus wouldn't baptize with water... but He did say Jesus would baptize with more than what he himself baptized people in (Holy Spirit and fire).  I believe John 4:1 would show that Jesus indeed baptized and made disciples in a similar way to John the Baptist.

Second, after making the statement of Matthew 3:11, Jesus came to be baptized by John.  John's reaction was, "I need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?" (3:14).  Was he saying he needed Jesus to baptize him with the Holy Spirit or fire... or both?  Or, was he saying he needed Jesus to baptize him in the same way he had been baptizing other people?    

Third, even after this statement, Jesus was baptized by John (water baptism).  Matthew 3:16 tells us He did so "to fulfill all righteousness".  Whatever is meant by this phrase, I believe all of us would agree that Jesus believed baptism in water to be important.

Those are my thoughts at random.  BTW, reference in the rest of NT scriptures are made to this event in both Acts 1:5and Acts 11:16 - the two times in the book that it's clear people were baptized with the Holy Spirit.


----------



## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> I thought being born of water and the Spirit was about our two births, not baptism.



Whatever it is, Jesus said it was necessary to "enter the kingdom of heaven".  When you supplement Jesus' words in Matthew 28:18-20, Mark 16:16, and the example of people in the book of Acts being baptized in water, it would seem it's identifying baptism utilizing water.  In fact, Peter might very well have explained it best in Acts 2:38ff (repent and let every one of you be baptized... and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit).  That was stated in response to people who asked "what shall we do" after hearing the gospel message.


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## hobbs27

Here's Matthew Henrys' take on Matthew 3.

_Commentary on Matthew 3:7-12

(Read Matthew 3:7-12)

To make application to the souls of the hearers, is the life of preaching; so it was of John's preaching. The Pharisees laid their chief stress on outward observances, neglecting the weightier matters of the moral law, and the spiritual meaning of their legal ceremonies. Others of them were detestable hypocrites, making their pretences to holiness a cloak for iniquity. The Sadducees ran into the opposite extreme, denying the existence of spirits, and a future state. They were the scornful infidels of that time and country. There is a wrath to come. It is the great concern of every one to flee from that wrath. God, who delights not in our ruin, has warned us; he warns by the written word, by ministers, by conscience. And those are not worthy of the name of penitents, or their privileges, who say they are sorry for their sins, yet persist in them. It becomes penitents to be humble and low in their own eyes, to be thankful for the least mercy, patient under the greatest affliction, to be watchful against all appearances of sin, to abound in every duty, and to be charitable in judging others. Here is a word of caution, not to trust in outward privileges. There is a great deal which carnal hearts are apt to say within themselves, to put aside the convincing, commanding power of the word of God. Multitudes, by resting in the honours and mere advantages of their being members of an outward church, come short of heaven. Here is a word of terror to the careless and secure. Our corrupt hearts cannot be made to produce good fruit, unless the regenerating Spirit of Christ graft the good word of God upon them. And every tree, however high in gifts and honours, however green in outward professions and performances, if it bring not forth good fruit, the fruits meet for repentance, is hewn down and cast into the fire of God's wrath, the fittest place for barren trees: what else are they good for? If not fit for fruit, they are fit for fuel. John shows the design and intention of Christ's appearing, which they were now speedily to expect. No outward forms can make us clean. No ordinances, by whomsoever administered, or after whatever mode, can supply the want of the baptism of the Holy Ghost and of fire. The purifying and cleansing power of the Holy Spirit alone can produce that purity of heart, and those holy affections, which accompany salvation. It is Christ who baptizes with the Holy Ghost. This he did in the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit sent upon the apostles, Acts 2:4. This he does in the graces and comforts of the Spirit, given to those that ask him, Luke 11:13; John 7:38,39; see Acts 11:16. Observe here, the outward church is Christ's floor, Isaiah 21:10. True believers are as wheat, substantial, useful, and valuable; hypocrites are as chaff, light and empty, useless and worthless, carried about with every wind; these are mixed, good and bad, in the same outward communion. There is a day coming when the wheat and chaff shall be separated. The last judgment will be the distinguishing day, when saints and sinners shall be parted for ever. In heaven the saints are brought together, and no longer scattered; they are safe, and no longer exposed; separated from corrupt neighbours without, and corrupt affections within, and there is no chaff among them. -he11 is the unquenchable fire, which will certainly be the portion and punishment of hypocrites and unbelievers. Here life and death, good and evil, are set before us: according as we now are in the field, we shall be then in the floor.
_

 Another study guide I have says of matt 3:11

Cleansing with fire describes Gods supernatural baptism, contrasted with the symbol of cleansing with water. The fire of the spirit renews the people of God and consumes the wicked as chaff( Is. 4.4; Zech. 13:9; Mal. 3:2,3; 4:1) . John's witness to Jesus as the Lord who has come(v.3) is extended. As Lord, Jesus baptizes with the Spirit and executes the Last Judgement. See Baptism at Rom 6:3


Romans

6:3,4  Baptism, the sign and seal of initial union with Christ, is the burial service for the "old man" (v.6) as well as the inauguration ceremony for the new personin Christ(v.4). As such, it proclaims that those united to Christ have died to sin. From 5:20 to 8:4, sin is presented as the driving energy that produces sinful acts, and is personified as a tyrannical taskmaster, demanding dominion and needing to be resisted.


----------



## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> I just got done doing a study on this. I will start a new thread on it. I don't know if I will tonight or not cause I've got some things to do, and me and my wife are going off tomorrow and coming back Saturday.







Honestly, I'd just like thoughts on those verses.
.


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## M80

Ronnie T said:


> Honestly, I'd just like thoughts on those verses.
> .



I will


----------



## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> Here's Matthew Henrys' take on Matthew 3.
> 
> _Commentary on Matthew 3:7-12
> 
> (Read Matthew 3:7-12)
> 
> To make application to the souls of the hearers, is the life of preaching; so it was of John's preaching. The Pharisees laid their chief stress on outward observances, neglecting the weightier matters of the moral law, and the spiritual meaning of their legal ceremonies. Others of them were detestable hypocrites, making their pretences to holiness a cloak for iniquity. The Sadducees ran into the opposite extreme, denying the existence of spirits, and a future state. They were the scornful infidels of that time and country. There is a wrath to come. It is the great concern of every one to flee from that wrath. God, who delights not in our ruin, has warned us; he warns by the written word, by ministers, by conscience. And those are not worthy of the name of penitents, or their privileges, who say they are sorry for their sins, yet persist in them. It becomes penitents to be humble and low in their own eyes, to be thankful for the least mercy, patient under the greatest affliction, to be watchful against all appearances of sin, to abound in every duty, and to be charitable in judging others. Here is a word of caution, not to trust in outward privileges. There is a great deal which carnal hearts are apt to say within themselves, to put aside the convincing, commanding power of the word of God. Multitudes, by resting in the honours and mere advantages of their being members of an outward church, come short of heaven. Here is a word of terror to the careless and secure. Our corrupt hearts cannot be made to produce good fruit, unless the regenerating Spirit of Christ graft the good word of God upon them. And every tree, however high in gifts and honours, however green in outward professions and performances, if it bring not forth good fruit, the fruits meet for repentance, is hewn down and cast into the fire of God's wrath, the fittest place for barren trees: what else are they good for? If not fit for fruit, they are fit for fuel. John shows the design and intention of Christ's appearing, which they were now speedily to expect. No outward forms can make us clean. No ordinances, by whomsoever administered, or after whatever mode, can supply the want of the baptism of the Holy Ghost and of fire. The purifying and cleansing power of the Holy Spirit alone can produce that purity of heart, and those holy affections, which accompany salvation. It is Christ who baptizes with the Holy Ghost. This he did in the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit sent upon the apostles, Acts 2:4. This he does in the graces and comforts of the Spirit, given to those that ask him, Luke 11:13; John 7:38,39; see Acts 11:16. Observe here, the outward church is Christ's floor, Isaiah 21:10. True believers are as wheat, substantial, useful, and valuable; hypocrites are as chaff, light and empty, useless and worthless, carried about with every wind; these are mixed, good and bad, in the same outward communion. There is a day coming when the wheat and chaff shall be separated. The last judgment will be the distinguishing day, when saints and sinners shall be parted for ever. In heaven the saints are brought together, and no longer scattered; they are safe, and no longer exposed; separated from corrupt neighbours without, and corrupt affections within, and there is no chaff among them. -he11 is the unquenchable fire, which will certainly be the portion and punishment of hypocrites and unbelievers. Here life and death, good and evil, are set before us: according as we now are in the field, we shall be then in the floor.
> _
> 
> Another study guide I have says of matt 3:11
> 
> Cleansing with fire describes Gods supernatural baptism, contrasted with the symbol of cleansing with water. The fire of the spirit renews the people of God and consumes the wicked as chaff( Is. 4.4; Zech. 13:9; Mal. 3:2,3; 4:1) . John's witness to Jesus as the Lord who has come(v.3) is extended. As Lord, Jesus baptizes with the Spirit and executes the Last Judgement. See Baptism at Rom 6:3
> 
> 
> Romans
> 
> 6:3,4  Baptism, the sign and seal of initial union with Christ, is the burial service for the "old man" (v.6) as well as the inauguration ceremony for the new personin Christ(v.4). As such, it proclaims that those united to Christ have died to sin. From 5:20 to 8:4, sin is presented as the driving energy that produces sinful acts, and is personified as a tyrannical taskmaster, demanding dominion and needing to be resisted.



Sounds like both of the commentators believe it refers to the eternal judgment of mankind.  If that's true, that would put John saying "Jesus will baptize now with the Holy Spirit... and later with fire."  Not sure I agree or disagree with their theory.  However, neither of the two baptisms (if they are separate) have a timeline attached to them.


----------



## hobbs27

Bama4me said:


> Sounds like both of the commentators believe it refers to the eternal judgment of mankind.  If that's true, that would put John saying "Jesus will baptize now with the Holy Spirit... and later with fire."  Not sure I agree or disagree with their theory.  However, neither of the two baptisms (if they are separate) have a timeline attached to them.



I think we can all agree the baptism in water that John performed was not for salvation, but symbolic of what was to come. 
Now, was it symbolic of a regenerating baptism in the blood of Christ through the Holy Spirit? I believe so, and this is where many of us disagree. 
 I have my supernatural experience with Jesus that I will forever hold on to, been baptized in water 3 times, once sprinkled by the methodist as a child and twice dunked by the baptist after Christ saved me. 
 The baptism in the river was nice and the spirit was felt, but nothing like the night I was saved. If someone else thinks they got it in the water baptism...more power to them. Whatever we have; it is all we will have on our/that day.


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## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> I think we can all agree the baptism in water that John performed was not for salvation, but symbolic of what was to come.



Not sure I can agree with you here... per Mark 1:4 and Luke 3:3.


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## Artfuldodger

It seems like everyone in the Bible receives the Holy Spirit at their Baptism. If this is true, why isn't the process of entering water, allowing a preacher to physically grab you, and you physically taking part in a physical exercise considered a "work?"
What is different about that than being a disciple?


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## hobbs27

Bama4me said:


> Not sure I can agree with you here... per Mark 1:4 and Luke 3:3.



You don't have to agree. I don't believe in salvation until the blood was shed, I believe even Abraham and Moses , and David had to recieve the blood of Christ from the cross before they could have salvation. 

Not on a hunch either, from years of studying the subject..not that my studies are any greater than anyone elses, but my studies on this have my soul at ease on it.


----------



## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> It seems like everyone in the Bible receives the Holy Spirit at their Baptism. If this is true, why isn't the process of entering water, allowing a preacher to physically grab you, and you physically taking part in a physical exercise considered a "work?"
> What is different about that than being a disciple?



Not a bit... it's always been funny to me that some claim baptism it be a "work", but don't say the same thing about a sinners prayer or one believing.  In all cases, man has actually done SOMETHING - a "work" according to many.


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## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> You don't have to agree. I don't believe in salvation until the blood was shed, I believe even Abraham and Moses , and David had to recieve the blood of Christ from the cross before they could have salvation.
> 
> Not on a hunch either, from years of studying the subject..not that my studies are any greater than anyone elses, but my studies on this have my soul at ease on it.



From that perspective, you're correct.  However, would the blood of Jesus cover people like Abraham, Moses, etc. had they not obeyed the Lord in what He had instructed them? The Holy Spirit states that John's baptism was for the forgiveness of sins... thus, to receive the cleansing from Christ's blood in the future, it was necessary for their salvation.


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## M80

Ronnie T said:


> Honestly, I'd just like thoughts on those verses.
> .



Ephesians 4. 4,5
Vrs 5.  KJV    There is one body, and one Spirit, even as he are called in one hope of your calling;5.  One lord, one faith, one baptism. 

One baptism, yet there is three differant baptism in the bible

1.) a baptism with the water(acts 8vrs 38)
       Water baptism
2.)a baptism with the Holy Ghost (Matt. 3vrs 11)
3.) a baptism into Christ. (Romans 6. Vrs 3)

Which is the one baptism
Romans 6. 3. Know Ye not, that so many of us were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death
   This baptized into Christ is salvation. Galatians 3vrs 27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. We are baptized into Christ the moment we are saved. There will never be a #1 and #2 baptism if there has never been a #3
Water baptism is the earthly witness. Holy Ghost baptism is the heavenly witness
By the spirit we were first baptized into Christ, (he led us to The Lord ), and then by Christ we are baptized with the spirit. 

Water baptism is an outward expression to show forth unto people that they have been saved. It does not take away sins. Example  Acts 10 vrs 43. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosever BELIEVETH in him shall receive remission of sins. 

Here in these verses they had already received the Holy Ghost before they were water baptized. Acts 10vrs 47. Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we.


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## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> Here in these verses they had already received the Holy Ghost before they were water baptized. Acts 10vrs 47. Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we.



Couple of questions about this statement.  One... how many other times do you see this occurrence in the book of Acts?  Two... have you ever read Acts 11:1-18 in conjunction with the passage you cite?


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## Artfuldodger

I'm not doubting the importance of water Baptism but to me the story around John 3:5 is about Nicodemus' confusion of being born twice. It is about two births, one of flesh(water) and one of Spirit. 
It doesn't even mention Baptism of water or Spirit.
Jesus and Nicodemus
…4Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" 5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.…


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> Water baptism is an outward expression to show forth unto people that they have been saved. It does not take away sins.



Can you show me a place in the New Testament where this is stated?


----------



## M80

Bama4me said:


> Couple of questions about this statement.  One... how many other times do you see this occurrence in the book of Acts?  Two... have you ever read Acts 11:1-18 in conjunction with the passage you cite?



I'm not reading you. Explain,  the bible is pretty clear here on this subject. It doesn't matter how many times this occurance happened, it happened here and I believe it, and it happened to me


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## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm not doubting the importance of water Baptism but to me the story around John 3:5 is about Nicodemus' confusion of being born twice. It is about two births, one of flesh(water) and one of Spirit.
> It doesn't even mention Baptism of water or Spirit.
> Jesus and Nicodemus
> …4Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" 5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.…



Nowhere is there any indication that "water" refers to the flesh.  Being born of the water and the Spirit clarifies the idea of being born again in verse 3.  When Peter and the apostles answered the people's question in Acts 2:38ff, he didn't say "you've got to be born and receive the Spirit.  He said repent, be baptized, and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.  Both passages refer to salvation... allow them to shed light on one another.


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> I'm not reading you. Explain,  the bible is pretty clear here on this subject. It doesn't matter how many times this occurance happened, it happened here and I believe it, and it happened to me



Really... it doesn't matter at all? There was a purpose for Cornelius and his family receiving this baptism of the Holy Spirit outside of a personal benefit, and it's stated clearly in Acts 11:1-18.  The only other time you see this in the book of Acts is in 2:1-4... and it happened to the apostles.

Of special significance here is the fact Peter said people would receive the Holy Spirit WHEN (or possibly after) they were baptized... not prior to being baptized (Acts 2:38-39).  The people of Samaria received the Holy Spirit AFTER (not before) they were baptized (Acts 8:12-17)... as did the twelve men Paul baptized in Acts 19:1-7.

Multiple times in the book of Acts you see that people were baptized THEN received the Holy Spirit... yet you focus on the exception to that pattern without caring to investigate why things were different in the case of Cornelius and say "it doesn't matter"?


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm not doubting the importance of water Baptism but to me the story around John 3:5 is about Nicodemus' confusion of being born twice. It is about two births, one of flesh(water) and one of Spirit.
> It doesn't even mention Baptism of water or Spirit.
> Jesus and Nicodemus
> …4Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" 5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.…



I agree with ya


----------



## M80

Bama4me said:


> Nowhere is there any indication that "water" refers to the flesh.  Being born of the water and the Spirit clarifies the idea of being born again in verse 3.  When Peter and the apostles answered the people's question in Acts 2:38ff, he didn't say "you've got to be born and receive the Spirit.  He said repent, be baptized, and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.  Both passages refer to salvation... allow them to shed light on one another.





Bama4me said:


> Really... it doesn't matter at all? There was a purpose for Cornelius and his family receiving this baptism of the Holy Spirit outside of a personal benefit, and it's stated clearly in Acts 11:1-18.  The only other time you see this in the book of Acts is in 2:1-4... and it happened to the apostles.
> 
> Of special significance here is the fact Peter said people would receive the Holy Spirit WHEN (or possibly after) they were baptized... not prior to being baptized (Acts 2:38-39).  The people of Samaria received the Holy Spirit AFTER (not before) they were baptized (Acts 8:12-17)... as did the twelve men Paul baptized in Acts 19:1-7.
> 
> Multiple times in the book of Acts you see that people were baptized THEN received the Holy Spirit... yet you focus on the exception to that pattern without caring to investigate why things were different in the case of Cornelius and say "it doesn't matter"?



Your right, repent and be baptized, this baptism unto Christ that I stated in Romans 6.3

I didn't mean it as "It doesn't matter", but how can someone have the Holy Ghost if they are not saved


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> I didn't mean it as "It doesn't matter", but how can someone have the Holy Ghost if they are not saved



Acts 11:1-18 will tell you.


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> Your right, repent and be baptized, this baptism unto Christ that I stated in Romans 6.3



Are you implying that the baptism Peter mentioned in Acts 2:38-39, that the Samaritans received in Acts 8:12, and that the twelve received in Acts 19:1-7 was a baptism of the Holy Spirit?


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> I agree with ya


This is the way I see it and I'll reiterate for others: 
mother's womb and be born, can he?" 5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit

Nicodemus was just talking about reentering his mother's womb to be born again. He was picturing natural birth. He was talking about natural birth. Jesus let Nicodemus know that was the first birth(water) Did I mention Nicodemus was asking about a natural birth? 
Then Jesus told him about the second birth in the spirit.

If you want to prove Water Baptism is a required work then you'll have to find other verses than this one.


----------



## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> This is the way I see it and I'll reiterate for others:
> mother's womb and be born, can he?" 5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit
> 
> Nicodemus was just talking about reentering his mother's womb to be born again. He was picturing natural birth. He was talking about natural birth. Jesus let Nicodemus know that was the first birth(water) Did I mention Nicodemus was asking about a natural birth?
> Then Jesus told him about the second birth in the spirit.
> 
> If you want to prove Water Baptism is a required work then you'll have to find other verses than this one.



Try 1 Peter 3:20-21... or Acts 8:36-38... or Acts 22:16.


----------



## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> Explain step two. Tell me how lake, creek, or county water washes away your sins





Ronnie T said:


> Look at the scripture and you can explain it...
> 
> Acts 2:38
> Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
> 
> Acts 22:16
> Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.’
> 
> Romans 6:3
> Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?  4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
> 
> Galatians 3:27
> For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
> 
> Colossians 2:11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
> 
> 1 Peter 3:21
> Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,





Ronnie T said:


> Honestly, I'd just like thoughts on those verses.
> .





mwilliams80 said:


> I will



Actually, you answered the way every other person does who doesn't acknowledge what the Bible says about baptism.  So let me try to give an undenominational review of each of those verses.

1.  Acts 2:38 
Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
a.  Those people had asked:  "what should we do now?"
b.  Peter told them to do two things.  (1) They needed to repent. (2) and they needed to be baptized. Baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
c.  What would happen if and when they did that?  (1) Their sins would be forgiven and (2) They'd receive the Holy Spirit.

d. I notice a connection between this verse and what Paul was told to do.....  "get up and be baptized and wash away your sins Acts 22:16."  In both cases baptism was associated with the "washing" away of a person's sins.

e.  The next question is whether these two verses are talking about New Testament water baptism, or are they talking about a Spiritual baptism?  I think it's clear in both verses that this baptism is a baptism that must be dealt with by the individual.  In Holy Spirit baptism these individual's efforts wouldn't be necessary.  

2.  Acts 22:16 
Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.’         (a)  These words were spoken to Paul.  "Why are you just sitting there, get on up and be baptized."

3.  Romans 6:3 
Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?  4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
a.  I've never seen anything in Romans six that hints to baptism being nothing more than a ritual that reenacts something that's already happened.
b.  These people were actually thinking that they would purposely sin so that God would be forced to give them more grace.  Paul could have said:  "You have forgotten that your old life has been replace by new life in Christ".  But Paul said:  "You've forgotten your baptism".
c.  Bro Williams statement:  "Water baptism is an outward expression to show forth unto people that they have been saved. It does not take away sins."  is a standard response, but it isn't a scriptural response.  Three verses already have stated just the opposite.

d.  Just being dunked in water is meaningless.  It proves nothing of the past.  But if one is baptized for biblical reasons, baptism is a person's doorway into a life with Christ.
.


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> This is the way I see it and I'll reiterate for others:
> mother's womb and be born, can he?" 5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit
> 
> Nicodemus was just talking about reentering his mother's womb to be born again. He was picturing natural birth. He was talking about natural birth. Jesus let Nicodemus know that was the first birth(water) Did I mention Nicodemus was asking about a natural birth?
> Then Jesus told him about the second birth in the spirit.
> 
> If you want to prove Water Baptism is a required work then you'll have to find other verses than this one.



I don't think anyone has used this verse to show the requirement of baptism.

Also in your last sentence, the Bible doesn't say water baptism is a required work.  The Bible says baptism must take place before a person ever has an opportunity to preform a good deed.
.


----------



## hobbs27

Bama4me said:


> From that perspective, you're correct.  However, would the blood of Jesus cover people like Abraham, Moses, etc. had they not obeyed the Lord in what He had instructed them? The Holy Spirit states that John's baptism was for the forgiveness of sins... thus, to receive the cleansing from Christ's blood in the future, it was necessary for their salvation.



If what you say is true then there is a timeline issue again.

Did the rules of Baptism being necessary start the first day John started dunking folks? 


Simeon of Luke 2:25 had the Holy Spirit on him and was just waiting for the Savior to be born.... (v29) Lord, now You are letting Your servant depart in peace; according to your word[ which came to him by the HS to answer a question in the other thread] 30 For my eyes have seen Your salvation.

Ole Simeon was allowed to die then.... I bet he brought good news to the folks in paradise..... Ive seen Him and Ive held Him! He's coming!

You are correct though. Something had to qualify theses folks, else the rich man would have been with Lazarus.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> I don't think anyone has used this verse to show the requirement of baptism.



Bama4me has alluded to it in this responce.
Quote
Originally Posted by Artfuldodger  
I thought being born of water and the Spirit was about our two births, not baptism.(end quote)

(Bama4me's responce
Whatever it is, Jesus said it was necessary to "enter the kingdom of heaven". When you supplement Jesus' words in Matthew 28:18-20, Mark 16:16, and the example of people in the book of Acts being baptized in water, it would seem it's identifying baptism utilizing water. (end quote)


----------



## barryl

Just to clarify, the author of my bible is the Holy Spirit, so I can trust it! About baptisms,{last time I checked, there's 7 of em} it depends on whether or not your church or denomination is your final authority. Water baptism is a "figure" 1 Peter 3:21 KJV AV About the "fire" part, it's about purifying.


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Just to clarify, the author of my bible is the Holy Spirit, so I can trust it! About baptisms,{last time I checked, there's 7 of em} ...



According to the author of your Bible, there is one:

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. -- Eph. 4:4-6 NIV UV








barryl said:


> Water baptism is a "figure" 1 Peter 3:21 KJV AV



1.  That's not what the passage says.

2.  There is no finer example of why I don't use the KJV than 1 Peter 3:21.  The English used there is particularly difficult, even by KJV standards.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> It seems like everyone in the Bible receives the Holy Spirit at their Baptism. If this is true, why isn't the process of entering water, allowing a preacher to physically grab you, and you physically taking part in a physical exercise considered a "work?"
> What is different about that than being a disciple?



I've been thinking about this one all day. Receiving the Holy Spirit is evidence of salvation...Surely no one will say the unsaved receive the gift?

Cornelius and his family received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized.. Thanks for bringing this to my attention Art...that's more than enough biblical proof that salvation does not come from water baptism...now for denominational proof..hah!


----------



## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> I've been thinking about this one all day. Receiving the Holy Spirit is evidence of salvation...Surely no one will say the unsaved receive the gift?
> 
> Cornelius and his family received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized.. Thanks for bringing this to my attention Art...that's more than enough biblical proof that salvation does not come from water baptism...now for denominational proof..hah!



So, let me see if I understand your Christian goodness and faithfulness.
You know that Jesus taught baptism, and His apostles taught baptism.  You also know Paul was told, "arise and be baptized, that your sins might be washed  away".

But, since, in this very 'out of the ordinary' situation with Cornelius, you see things happening differently, your Christian heart tells you to ignore what happened in 'all' the other situations?

When my brother and I were teenagers, our mom set 11pm as our curfew(back in the 60').  We knew that was the law.  We both lived by that law(if you know what I mean).
One Saturday night my brother didn't get in until almost midnight.  Next Saturday night, I purposely stayed out later.  Bad mistake!  When I arrived home my mother was waiting for me.  I learned that my brother had actually been late the previous Saturday for the sake of my Mother, rather than him purposely staying out later than he should.  

One exception does not establish new policy.  Especially when the exception was made by the policy maker.

I don't live for the exception.  
Paul was blinded on the side of the road!  Why didn't God blind me?  See what I mean?

Peter understood that what happened with Cornelius was an exception.  An exception that he had never witnessed.  And an exception that did not change future teachings in the church.
.


----------



## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> I've been thinking about this one all day. Receiving the Holy Spirit is evidence of salvation...Surely no one will say the unsaved receive the gift?
> 
> Cornelius and his family received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized.. Thanks for bringing this to my attention Art...that's more than enough biblical proof that salvation does not come from water baptism...now for denominational proof..hah!



That's not what the Bible says is it?
.


----------



## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> That's not what the Bible says is it?
> .



Well yes..Actually it does.


Ephesians 1:13-14

New American Standard Bible (NASB)


13 In [a]Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also *believed, you were sealed in [c]Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is [d]given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.*


----------



## Artfuldodger

Maybe it has something to do with being "born again."
What is the definition of this being "born again?" Can we re-enter our Mom's womb?

“Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God” (John 3:3).

I'm interested in what being "born again" means since I truly would like to see the Kingdom of God. This appears to be more important than believing and being baptized.


----------



## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> Well yes..Actually it does.
> 
> 
> Ephesians 1:13-14
> 
> New American Standard Bible (NASB)
> 
> 
> 13 In [a]Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also *believed, you were sealed in [c]Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is [d]given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.*


*

Okay, I got ya.
I thought you were referring to it as a "proof" that you could show to anyone who might question your salvation.
I see what you're saying, and yes if a person is a child of God, the Holy Spirit lives within them.
.*


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe it has something to do with being "born again."
> What is the definition of this being "born again?" Can we re-enter our Mom's womb?
> 
> “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God” (John 3:3).
> 
> I'm interested in what being "born again" means since I truly would like to see the Kingdom of God. This appears to be more important than believing and being baptized.



Being "born again" is a great subject to study.
.


----------



## headbust

mwilliams80 said:


> Explain step two. Tell me how lake, creek, or county water washes away your sins


ok just like john the baptist in his day was baptising in the jordan river for the remission of sins,JESUSalso said in order to be born again one must be baptised of  water,it is a symbolic of death to the old man, by going under water totally you wash away your sins by the renewing of your mind and spirit.remember this is a spiritual ritual to the believers,baptism cleanses the spirit and prepare your inner sanctuary to recieve the gift of the holy ghost [holy spirit] without this ritual you cannot be a child of GOD,because in order to be one you must be born again.


----------



## Artfuldodger

headbust said:


> ok just like john the baptist in his day was baptising in the jordan river for the remission of sins,JESUSalso said in order to be born again one must be baptised of  water,it is a symbolic of death to the old man, by going under water totally you wash away your sins by the renewing of your mind and spirit.remember this is a spiritual ritual to the believers,baptism cleanses the spirit and prepare your inner sanctuary to recieve the gift of the holy ghost [holy spirit] without this ritual you cannot be a child of GOD,because in order to be one you must be born again.



It's funny that on a thread that started out with just God's grace being enough we've now added Baptism by water as part of being born again to reach the Kingdom of God.
I would think forgiving others would be a better way to show you are born again and thus headed for the Kingdom of God than performing Christian rituals like Water Baptism or Communion.


----------



## M80

headbust said:


> ok just like john the baptist in his day was baptising in the jordan river for the remission of sins,JESUSalso said in order to be born again one must be baptised of  water,it is a symbolic of death to the old man, by going under water totally you wash away your sins by the renewing of your mind and spirit.remember this is a spiritual ritual to the believers,baptism cleanses the spirit and prepare your inner sanctuary to recieve the gift of the holy ghost [holy spirit] without this ritual you cannot be a child of GOD,because in order to be one you must be born again.


Most baptism I've witnessed is someone gets saved and next Sunday or so they get baptized. What if someone dies before they can get baptized?


----------



## headbust

Artfuldodger said:


> It's funny that on a thread that started out with just God's grace being enough we've now added Baptism by water as part of being born again to reach the Kingdom of God.
> I would think forgiving others would be a better way to show you are born again and thus headed for the Kingdom of God than performing Christian rituals like Water Baptism or Communion.


its funny ppl like you have there own way or belief to the way to salvation.the way has been laid out in scriptures,if you wanna make it in then guessing and passing opinions gotta go out the window.you nor me can change GODS way.


----------



## headbust

mwilliams80 said:


> Most baptism I've witnessed is someone gets saved and next Sunday or so they get baptized. What if someone dies before they can get baptized?


thats when the scriptures kick in when JESUS said i will have mercy own whom i will. its called GODS great mercy. he knows our heart and intentions.


----------



## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> ... we had a 12 year old girl saved Sunday morning in the church.





mwilliams80 said:


> What if someone dies before they can get baptized?



What if the little girl died in a car wreck on the way to church?


----------



## Artfuldodger

headbust said:


> its funny ppl like you have there own way or belief to the way to salvation.the way has been laid out in scriptures,if you wanna make it in then guessing and passing opinions gotta go out the window.you nor me can change GODS way.



I'm not sure what you mean by "people like me" but I do want to see the Kingdom of God, that's why I'm trying to figure out what being born again means.
Almost every one on here has a different interpretation of scriptures pertaining to salvation requirements even though we all read the same Bible. 
I can't recall all or your beliefs but besides believing & repenting, I believe you must try to follow the New Testament commandments of loving God and fellow man and forgiving others. To me personally from the bottom of my heart those commands are greater than water baptism. I'm more concerned with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That is God's way to me and I don't want to change it.

Matthew 6:15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.


----------



## M80

centerpin fan said:


> What if the little girl died in a car wreck on the way to church?



Well if she hadn't reached the age of accountability on the way to church she would go to heaven. If she understood she was lost before she had died she would have went to he11


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## M80

I don't know why people makes salvation so hard. Once the father draws us John 6:44 and we realize we are lost and need Jesus as our savior we believe, and that's what makes us saved. To many scriptures declare this


----------



## Artfuldodger

headbust said:


> ok just like john the baptist in his day was baptising in the jordan river for the remission of sins,JESUSalso said in order to be born again one must be baptised of  water,it is a symbolic of death to the old man, by going under water totally you wash away your sins by the renewing of your mind and spirit.remember this is a spiritual ritual to the believers,baptism cleanses the spirit and prepare your inner sanctuary to recieve the gift of the holy ghost [holy spirit] without this ritual you cannot be a child of GOD,because in order to be one you must be born again.



During this Spiritual ritual, do you have to be Baptized in the name of the Fathers, Son, & Holy Spirit or in the name of Jesus only? It is an important part of our "seeing the Kingdom of God" so we better get it right.


----------



## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> Well if she hadn't reached the age of accountability on the way to church she would go to heaven.



Where can I read about this in scripture?


----------



## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> I don't know why people makes salvation so hard.



Ditto.


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> During this Spiritual ritual, do you have to be Baptized in the name of the Fathers, Son, & Holy Spirit or in the name of Jesus only? It is an important part of our "seeing the Kingdom of God" so we better get it right.



The Bible provides the answer.
.


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> I don't know why people makes salvation so hard. Once the father draws us John 6:44 and we realize we are lost and need Jesus as our savior we believe, and that's what makes us saved. To many scriptures declare this



I don't think people are trying to make it hard or easy. Most are just trying to find the truth. It's kinda important to get it right.
I don't personally believe a water baptism is required for salvation but we do have to be born again.

For you it is easy as you believe in Grace alone. Some believe in Grace + Water Baptism. I believe in Grace + following the New Testament commandments. 

I'm not sure yet. I wish it was easy but I read : But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Many are called but few are chosen

Not everyone who says Lord, Lord

 I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.


----------



## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> I don't know why people makes salvation so hard. Once the father draws us John 6:44 and we realize we are lost and need Jesus as our savior we believe, and that's what makes us saved. To many scriptures declare this



When someone ask me about salvation in Christ, do you mind if I also present to the them the full scripture?
Why should you ignore Christ's words and will in His great commission?  Why should you ignore Jesus' teachings, Peter's teachings, and Paul's teachings concerning baptism?
I don't understand that.  Everything else you say is important to know, but why exclude this very dominant biblical teaching?  Why so hard-core about minimizing it?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> The Bible provides the answer.
> .



Is it in Acts?


----------



## Ronnie T

Acts 2:38, "And Peter said to them, 'Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." 
Acts 10:48, "And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days." 
Acts 19:5, "And when they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." 

I don't think there's an exact phrase that must be followed.  But it was important for 1st century folks to understand this baptism was by the authority of, and for the purposes of the Lord Jesus.

It wasn't John's baptism; it wasn't the Jews baptism.  It was baptism into Jesus Christ.


----------



## headbust

Artfuldodger said:


> During this Spiritual ritual, do you have to be Baptized in the name of the Fathers, Son, & Holy Spirit or in the name of Jesus only? It is an important part of our "seeing the Kingdom of God" so we better get it right.


mt 28:19 gives the answer.but pay close attention it say in the name of the father! whats the fathers name? it says of the son not in the name of the son! and of the holy ghost not name of the holy ghost! i had to say that to say this, john 1:1 say in the beginning was the word,and the word was with God and the word was God. 1st john 5:7 explains the oneness of the trinity.john 1:14 says the word was made flesh,jesus is the word made flesh,but was God always in the beginning because hes the word. God maifested himself in 3 manifestations father in creation,son in redemption,holy ghost indwelling spirit. and 1st jonh 5:7 backs this up.the bible says search the scriptures in them ye think you have eternal life! then jesus says no sir you dont because the scriptures testify of me and you want receive me,so one must baptise in JESUS name. for they the trinity is one. but salvation can only be granted in the name of the savior and that savior is JESUS.


----------



## headbust

ronnie t said:


> acts 2:38, "and peter said to them, 'repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of jesus christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the holy spirit."
> acts 10:48, "and he ordered them to be baptized in the name of jesus christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days."
> acts 19:5, "and when they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the lord jesus."
> 
> i don't think there's an exact phrase that must be followed.  But it was important for 1st century folks to understand this baptism was by the authority of, and for the purposes of the lord jesus.
> 
> It wasn't john's baptism; it wasn't the jews baptism.  It was baptism into jesus christ.


great post and well explained,thank you


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> Most baptism I've witnessed is someone gets saved and next Sunday or so they get baptized. What if someone dies before they can get baptized?



Been away for a few days... but gotta start here.

We can make hypotheticals all day long.  What if a person dies after hearing the gospel and they were going to believe?  What if a person died just before someone could teach him/her the gospel?  What if a person dies just prior to saying the sinner's prayer? It's funny that I never hear any of those hypotheticals... but folks LOVE to bring them up whenever water baptism is mentioned.

Answer?  Scripture still says what it says... but God will be the One making that decision, not me.


----------



## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> During this Spiritual ritual, do you have to be Baptized in the name of the Fathers, Son, & Holy Spirit or in the name of Jesus only? It is an important part of our "seeing the Kingdom of God" so we better get it right.



Art... I think a study of it will show both phrases to be utilized.  Matthew 28:19 uses the Godhead (all three) while Acts 2:38 uses Christ alone.  Either way, I don't think it's necessarily something that has to be stated during immersion because "in the name of" literally means "by the authority of".  As NT Christians went out teaching the gospel and baptizing people in the first century, they did those things under God's (not their own) authority.  The fact both phrases are used helps me to this conclusion.


----------



## barryl

centerpin fan said:


> According to the author of your Bible, there is one:
> 
> There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. -- Eph. 4:4-6 NIV UV
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1.  That's not what the passage says.
> 
> 2.  There is no finer example of why I don't use the KJV than 1 Peter 3:21.  The English used there is particularly difficult, even by KJV standards.


 Yeah, that 3rd. grade english is tough, ain't it? Gotta use more than a quarter of the verse. Why is it when a Campbellite reads the word "baptism", he automatically takes it as meaning "water", just like they do in Eph.4:5. It's called scripture "mangling".


----------



## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't think people are trying to make it hard or easy. Most are just trying to find the truth. It's kinda important to get it right.
> I don't personally believe a water baptism is required for salvation but we do have to be born again.
> 
> For you it is easy as you believe in Grace alone. Some believe in Grace + Water Baptism. I believe in Grace + following the New Testament commandments.



Want to comment on these two ideas because they are extremely important.

First, "truth" is necessary for salvation.  Jesus, in John 8:32 said "freedom" came as a result of people having "the truth".  Romans 2:8 indicates "obeying the truth" stands opposite of "obeying unrighteousness", which leads a person to "wrath and fury".  Ephesians 1:13 claims that before one is saved, he/she "heard the word of truth".  2 Thessalonians 2:13 states that failure to "believe the truth" would result in condemnation.  In 1 Peter 1:18, we read that "God brought us forth" by "the word of truth".  Four verses later (1:22), we see our souls were "purified by obedience to the truth."

After initially being saved, we must "walk in truth" according to 2 John 4... and "wandering from the truth", according to James 5:19-20, leads us to spiritual death.  Art is 100% correct... "truth" is vitally important to our salvation.  In fact, when one reads Romans 6:17, it begs the question... what is that "standard of teaching" (also rendered "form of doctrine).  The answer is "the truth"!  Without truth, one cannot be saved... it's clear from NT Scripture that this is the case.

Second, "grace" doesn't imply an absence of action in man.  Noah found "grace" (favor) in the eyes of God (Genesis 6:8), but he was required to obey God's command to build the ark in order to be saved.  Thus, "grace" in the story of Noah was not just "favor"... it was creating a pathway for him to be saved from the flood.  "Grace", using the word in this manner, simply means God gives us something we don't deserve... and provides us the path whereby salvation can be obtained and kept.  I was saved years ago by the grace of God by following His plan... and I continue to be saved by His grace today by His plan.

Instead of "grace alone", I hear the phrase "faith alone".  It designates simple believe without any actions... which is a strange thing because "faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17).  In other words, it's just as much a "work" as doing anything else!


----------



## Bama4me

barryl said:


> Yeah, that 3rd. grade english is tough, ain't it? Gotta use more than a quarter of the verse. Why is it when a Campbellite reads the word "baptism", he automatically takes it as meaning "water", just like they do in Eph.4:5. It's called scripture "mangling".



It's called "rightly dividing the word". 

How do you answer 1 Peter 3:21... baptism now saves us? The word "antitypos" is defined as "a thing resembling another" and "a thing formed after a pattern".  Verse 20 said eight souls were saved "through water".  Just as eight people were saved "through water" in Noah's day, people are saved "through water" today in the Christian age.  To claim baptism today is symbolic in verse 21 means the salvation of eight souls in the OT was symbolic also.  You ready to claim that the salvation from destruction in Noah's day was symbolic... consistency mandates that you do if that's how you interpret the passage?

Btw, no one on this thread has touched Acts 22:16... the passage that it is in baptism when sins are "washed away."  Oh wait... I'm sure that's Holy Spirit baptism... something he couldn't possibly have received while sitting down.


----------



## BRIAN1

We are saved by grace through faith. In church this morning, our preacher discussed the book of John. In it, Jesus explains that He is the only way to the Father in Heaven. By complete repentance of sins and accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior, one is saved.


----------



## M80

Ronnie T said:


> When someone ask me about salvation in Christ, do you mind if I also present to the them the full scripture?
> Why should you ignore Christ's words and will in His great commission?  Why should you ignore Jesus' teachings, Peter's teachings, and Paul's teachings concerning baptism?
> I don't understand that.  Everything else you say is important to know, but why exclude this very dominant biblical teaching?  Why so hard-core about minimizing it?



Why certainly give all scripture, but we are dicussing salvation. Let me try and show through bible verses, Romans 10:10,13. John 3:16, Acts 10:43,45. Ephesians 2:8. John 1:12. John 6:35,40,47. Acts 4:32. Acts 13:39, 48. Acts 16:30,31. Galatians 3:22. 2 Thessalonians 1:10. 2 Timothy 1:12. 
The bible says even the demons believe and tremble about one God. It's not believing in God. You ask the lost and most will say," oh I believe in god".   It isn't about believing in god, its believing Jesus-John 14:1


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Yeah, that 3rd. grade english is tough, ain't it?




1)  When Adam wakes up in the middle of the night to scary sounds coming from his closet, he'll need help to find out just what kind of creature is trapped inside.


2)  Nobody in class remembered to wish Emma a happy birthday.  They're all too busy planning a surprise party for the school custodian.


3)  Mom told Emma to expect a special surprise at lunch.  What could the surprise be?  Emma and Emma's friend Alice work to find out.


4)  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Why is it when a Campbellite reads the word "baptism", he automatically takes it as meaning "water" ...



First of all, I'm not a Campbellite (although I play one on TV.)

Second, Peter is obviously talking about water baptism.  Otherwise, there is no point in mentioning the ark and the flood in verse 20.


----------



## greatwhitebuffalo

Every human being is already saved. Our willingness to believe and accept Jesus Christ completes the process. We all have a place in Heaven regardless of who we are. Our interest in occupying this place in Heaven is our choice.

In other words; we're all saved. As long as we will allow Jesus Christ to save us and cooperate.


----------



## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> When someone ask me about salvation in Christ, do you mind if I also present to the them the full scripture?
> Why should you ignore Christ's words and will in His great commission?  Why should you ignore Jesus' teachings, Peter's teachings, and Paul's teachings concerning baptism?
> I don't understand that.  Everything else you say is important to know, but why exclude this very dominant biblical teaching?  Why so hard-core about minimizing it?





mwilliams80 said:


> Why certainly give all scripture, but we are dicussing salvation. Let me try and show through bible verses, Romans 10:10,13. John 3:16, Acts 10:43,45. Ephesians 2:8. John 1:12. John 6:35,40,47. Acts 4:32. Acts 13:39, 48. Acts 16:30,31. Galatians 3:22. 2 Thessalonians 1:10. 2 Timothy 1:12.
> The bible says even the demons believe and tremble about one God. It's not believing in God. You ask the lost and most will say," oh I believe in god".   It isn't about believing in god, its believing Jesus-John 14:1



You said it above, then acted as though you didn't.
Baptism belongs with all those verses you've listed.  Not separately from them.

Romans 10 was written to a saved, baptized church of Christians.  Same for your verses in Ephesians 2.  Same for all those verses.

When Philip met at Ethiopian out in the desert, Philip didn't read Romans 10 or John 3:16 to him and then leave.  Philip taught him the full understanding of the Gospel.  And Philip didn't leave the man until the man was baptized!!!!!!!
Most "pastors" today wouldn't do that.  They've become like barryl.  They live in their own little world, with little concern for the real 'rightly dividing'.

If Jesus said it, and the apostles said it and did it,  I'm frankly ashamed of any other preacher/teacher/ missionary who says or teaches otherwise.

After baptism, one needs to understand the value and power of Christ's blood in their continued lives.

But you need to make use of the biblical examples concerning baptism.

"Now why do you wait, arise and be baptized to wash away your sins."


----------



## Ronnie T

Someone sent this to me today.

I'm wondering if most Christians agree with these Baptist beliefs.
Even though I don't wholly agree with it, I was happy to see this church's beliefs.


http://www.richmondhillbaptist.org/articles/baptism-study-ordiance-baptism


----------



## greatwhitebuffalo

While I might not be 100% in support of their approach; I'm in full support of their efforts as Christians. Thank you for the post. God Bless


----------



## Artfuldodger

Bama4me said:


> Second, "grace" doesn't imply an absence of action in man.  Noah found "grace" (favor) in the eyes of God (Genesis 6:8), but he was required to obey God's command to build the ark in order to be saved.  Thus, "grace" in the story of Noah was not just "favor"... it was creating a pathway for him to be saved from the flood.  "Grace", using the word in this manner, simply means God gives us something we don't deserve... and provides us the path whereby salvation can be obtained and kept.  I was saved years ago by the grace of God by following His plan... and I continue to be saved by His grace today by His plan.
> 
> Instead of "grace alone", I hear the phrase "faith alone".  It designates simple believe without any actions... which is a strange thing because "faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17).  In other words, it's just as much a "work" as doing anything else!



I would agree believing, repenting, praying, getting baptized, are all works. Unless one becomes a Calvinist we'll continue to have requirements. There are just certain actions an unbeliever must do if he's not totally depraved.


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> Why certainly give all scripture, but we are dicussing salvation. Let me try and show through bible verses, Romans 10:10,13. John 3:16, Acts 10:43,45. Ephesians 2:8. John 1:12. John 6:35,40,47. Acts 4:32. Acts 13:39, 48. Acts 16:30,31. Galatians 3:22. 2 Thessalonians 1:10. 2 Timothy 1:12.
> The bible says even the demons believe and tremble about one God. It's not believing in God. You ask the lost and most will say," oh I believe in god".   It isn't about believing in god, its believing Jesus-John 14:1



MWill... I don't discount any of the passages you cite, but here's the rub.  As many passages that you can cite that says belief leads us to salvation, I can cite just as many which says baptism is the point of salvation.  According to God's word, He is NOT the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33).  The word tells we can be saved via belief... but it also says we are saved via baptism.  If no adequate explanation is given, then God allows people to be saved via two methods - that's confusing and totally contradicts the passage!

The answer, therefore, HAS to be that both ideas are necessary for salvation.  The NT is very clear that both are essential ingredients... and you find the two linked in several NT passages.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved.

Acts 8:12 - But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 16:33-34:  And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.

Acts 18:8 - And many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized.

It's not one or the other... it's both.  Baptism without a belief in Jesus as God's Son is useless... as is belief in Jesus without baptism.  You cannot, however look at Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, and 1 Peter 3:21 and see anything except sin being forgiven at the point of being baptized.  What is seen today in the religious community - people responding and then being baptized weeks later is never seen in the book of Acts. In fact, baptism when it's mentioned in case examples, is administered immediately after someone had believed a gospel message.  You don't find people praying a prayer... or someone being told "just accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior."

However, you DO consistently see belief and baptism in the case examples of the book of Acts.  But you do see BOTH of them being integral to salvation.


----------



## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> I would agree believing, repenting, praying, getting baptized, are all works. Unless one becomes a Calvinist we'll continue to have requirements. There are just certain actions an unbeliever must do if he's not totally depraved.



If one believes in Calvinism, most of the NT was written in vain.


----------



## Bama4me

barryl said:


> Why is it when a Campbellite reads the word "baptism", he automatically takes it as meaning "water", just like they do in Eph.4:5. It's called scripture "mangling".



Yep... and when a Smythite sees a NT passage dealing with baptism, he automatically tries to "explain it away", just you've done with 1 Peter 3:21.  Scripture itself calls it "twisting Scripture to one's destruction" (2 Peter 3:16).


----------



## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> Yeah, that 3rd. grade english is tough, ain't it? Gotta use more than a quarter of the verse. Why is it when a Campbellite reads the word "baptism", he automatically takes it as meaning "water", just like they do in Eph.4:5. It's called scripture "mangling".



Hey Listen.......

........... I've just spend 45 minutes trying to find some major, well known Bible Commentary that teaches the baptism of Eph 4:5 is something other than water baptism.

So far, I haven't found one.  Can you help a fellow out.

Barnes Notes on the Bible:  Says it's water baptism.
Clarkes Commentary on the Bible:  Says it's water baptism.
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible:  Says it's water baptism.
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary:  Says it's water baptism.
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary:  Says it's water baptism.
People's New Testament Commentary:  Says it's water baptism.
Vincent's Word Studies:  Says it's water baptism.

*All say it's the "one New Testament baptism into the Lord Jesus Christ.

........................................ And none of those are campbellites.  go figger.


----------



## Bama4me

Ronnie T said:


> Hey Listen.......
> 
> ........... I've just spend 45 minutes trying to find some major, well known Bible Commentary that teaches the baptism of Eph 4:5 is something other than water baptism.
> 
> So far, I haven't found one.  Can you help a fellow out.
> 
> Barnes Notes on the Bible:  Says it's water baptism.
> Clarkes Commentary on the Bible:  Says it's water baptism.
> Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible:  Says it's water baptism.
> Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary:  Says it's water baptism.
> Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary:  Says it's water baptism.
> People's New Testament Commentary:  Says it's water baptism.
> Vincent's Word Studies:  Says it's water baptism.
> 
> *All say it's the "one New Testament baptism into the Lord Jesus Christ.
> 
> ........................................ And none of those are campbellites.  go figger.



Didn't know all these folks were Campbellites... guess there's more of them around than what I figured.


----------



## centerpin fan

Ronnie T said:


> ... And none of those are campbellites.  go figger.





Bama4me said:


> Didn't know all these folks were Campbellites...



Guys, can we please use the proper terminology?  It's not "Campbellite".  It's "Southern Catholic".


----------



## Ronnie T

Bama4me said:


> Didn't know all these folks were Campbellites... guess there's more of them around than what I figured.



Has anyone other than Barryl ever called you a campbellite?

He is a first for me.  In over 50 years as a Christian, he's the only one.


----------



## Ronnie T

centerpin fan said:


> Guys, can we please use the proper terminology?  It's not "Campbellite".  It's "Southern Catholic".



You're gittin a whippin.  

I got to admit, that's the first time I've heard that.
I'll bet the Campbell's wouldn't appreciate it.


----------



## Ronnie T

Interesting Sermon.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...2-01-08-sermon.htm+&cd=18&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us


----------



## Bama4me

Ronnie T said:


> Has anyone other than Barryl ever called you a campbellite?
> 
> He is a first for me.  In over 50 years as a Christian, he's the only one.



Nope... first time.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie posted this on the "born again" thread and gave his response. I would like to here from others. This is from Acts:

Acts 19:
1 It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples.
2 He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
4 Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.
7 There were in all about twelve men

My question is were they saved when they became believers or when they were baptized  in the name of Jesus? Their first baptism was for repentance(John) and their second baptism was for receiving the Holy Spirit. 
In other words do you have to receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to be saved or can the Holy Spirit just hover around you for you to be saved?


----------



## Artfuldodger

“So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, ‘Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.’” (Acts 9:17, ESV)

Paul received the Holy Spirit from Ananias later than when he started believing.
He received the Holy Spirit by "laying of the hands" and was then baptized.


----------



## greatwhitebuffalo

You're saved before any of that.


----------



## M80

I believe all these early baptism y'all are talking about is a spiritual baptism. When you see they believed and were baptized is like now a days us saying they believed and was saved. There was a lot of things that happened in acts that no longer happens now. A man was able to walk by the prophets in the lords name. I have no power like that neither do any of y'all. I believe in anointing with oil but it is by faith. When Paul laid his hands on the 12 and they received the Holy Spirit this may have things that happened at first but not now. Do any of us preacher really believe you have the power to give the Holy Ghost to someone, I think not. I done my best to show through the scripture about the three differant baptism in earlier post. I guess I backing out in this one. I mainly wanted to see what y'all believed about what it takes to be saved. In my beliefs its all about the blood that was shed in Calvery. By his labor for me doing something that I could never do. I have no saving power in myself when I baptize someone. The way I see it if baptism is required for salvation the man of god would have his input in it. The bible says there is no other name given whereby men might be saved. It's all by Jesus. He is the way, the truth, and the life. 

Thanks for all y'all thoughts on this subject


----------



## greatwhitebuffalo

mwilliams80 said:


> I believe all these early baptism y'all are talking about is a spiritual baptism. When you see they believed and were baptized is like now a days us saying they believed and was saved. There was a lot of things that happened in acts that no longer happens now. A man was able to walk by the prophets in the lords name. I have no power like that neither do any of y'all. I believe in anointing with oil but it is by faith. When Paul laid his hands on the 12 and they received the Holy Spirit this may have things that happened at first but not now. Do any of us preacher really believe you have the power to give the Holy Ghost to someone, I think not. I done my best to show through the scripture about the three differant baptism in earlier post. I guess I backing out in this one. I mainly wanted to see what y'all believed about what it takes to be saved. In my beliefs its all about the blood that was shed in Calvery. By his labor for me doing something that I could never do. I have no saving power in myself when I baptize someone. The way I see it if baptism is required for salvation the man of god would have his input in it. The bible says there is no other name given whereby men might be saved. It's all by Jesus. He is the way, the truth, and the life.
> 
> Thanks for all y'all thoughts on this subject



Great points. No human has power beyond that given by God.


----------



## Artfuldodger

greatwhitebuffalo said:


> You're saved before any of that.



Please explain, even before believing or just baptism?


----------



## Artfuldodger

If salvation doesn't happen until baptism, why don't we make sure the person get's baptized immediately after conversion? Even if total immersion isn't possible at the moment of his conversion we could always pour some cleansing water on him. Even a sprinkle might hold him over until we can dunk him.


----------



## greatwhitebuffalo

Artfuldodger said:


> Please explain, even before believing or just baptism?



Both. Christ doesn't discriminate. A person's ignorance of this salvation separates them from it. God didn't ask us if we wanted His Son to come save us. It was given to us without question. It's given to us (i.e. - we're saved), and we choose to accept or not.

I hope this makes some sense?


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> Even a sprinkle might hold him over until we can dunk him.



Thanks for making me smile today


----------



## M80

centerpin fan said:


> Where can I read about this in scripture?



2nd Samuel 12verses 13-23


----------



## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> 2nd Samuel 12verses 13-23



The passage has no reference to "age of accountability".


----------



## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> I done my best to show through the scripture about the three differant baptism in earlier post.



Paul makes it clear that there is one.




mwilliams80 said:


> ... its all about the blood that was shed in Calvery.



Agreed.


----------



## Artfuldodger

greatwhitebuffalo said:


> Both. Christ doesn't discriminate. A person's ignorance of this salvation separates them from it. God didn't ask us if we wanted His Son to come save us. It was given to us without question. It's given to us (i.e. - we're saved), and we choose to accept or not.
> 
> I hope this makes some sense?



I understand Christ died for everyone, yet not all will gain this truth or even if they do they won't accept the truth. They have the knowledge but will remain ignorant.
What if we choose to not accept Jesus' death for our sins, are we still saved?


----------



## M80

centerpin fan said:


> The passage has no reference to "age of accountability".



Very true but David was going to where the baby was. I can't remember if it was barrl or Hobbs that said it but The Lord reveals things to us like the father revealed that jesus  was the Christ when Peter said that. I believe children are protected until they understand they are lost and need a savior. Remember, Romans 10: for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness........   It's a heart thing and who can know our hearts but The Lord. It goes the same for people who suffer from retardation. If they can't understand they are under his protection


----------



## greatwhitebuffalo

Artfuldodger said:


> I understand Christ died for everyone, yet not all will gain this truth or even if they do they won't accept the truth. They have the knowledge but will remain ignorant.
> What if we choose to not accept Jesus' death for our sins, are we still saved?



No. That is the worst sin a person can commit.


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> Thanks for making me smile today



I though you might like that. But seriously as you said earlier, why do Churches & preachers wait for baptisms? 
Another question that arises is when someone is bed ridden, in a prison cell, on a cross, or trapped in a mine without a water source, what are we to do?


----------



## M80

centerpin fan said:


> Paul makes it clear that there is one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed.





mwilliams80 said:


> Ephesians 4. 4,5
> Vrs 5.  KJV    There is one body, and one Spirit, even as he are called in one hope of your calling;5.  One lord, one faith, one baptism.
> 
> One baptism, yet there is three differant baptism in the bible
> 
> 1.) a baptism with the water(acts 8vrs 38)
> Water baptism
> 2.)a baptism with the Holy Ghost (Matt. 3vrs 11)
> 3.) a baptism into Christ. (Romans 6. Vrs 3)
> 
> Which is the one baptism
> Romans 6. 3. Know Ye not, that so many of us were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death
> This baptized into Christ is salvation. Galatians 3vrs 27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. We are baptized into Christ the moment we are saved. There will never be a #1 and #2 baptism if there has never been a #3
> Water baptism is the earthly witness. Holy Ghost baptism is the heavenly witness
> By the spirit we were first baptized into Christ, (he led us to The Lord ), and then by Christ we are baptized with the spirit.
> 
> Water baptism is an outward expression to show forth unto people that they have been saved. It does not take away sins. Example  Acts 10 vrs 43. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosever BELIEVETH in him shall receive remission of sins.
> 
> Here in these verses they had already received the Holy Ghost before they were water baptized. Acts 10vrs 47. Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we.



I agree one baptism, but there are three types mentioned. I say this one baptism is the one in 1st Corinthians 12:13. This is the baptism into christ (Romans 6:3). There can never be a baptism into water where this is an outward expression symbolizing our death, burial, and resurrection to the world unless we are spiritually baptized.


----------



## greatwhitebuffalo

Artfuldodger said:


> I though you might like that. But seriously as you said earlier, why do Churches & preachers wait for baptisms?
> Another question that arises is when someone is bed ridden, in a prison cell, on a cross, or trapped in a mine without a water source, what are we to do?



This is a great question you pose. I really don't like it when people attempt to deny others of God's Salvation. 

I had a friend who wanted to get baptized, but his preacher refused & said he wasn't ready. Even the weakest (and we're all weak) commitment is still a great step towards Jesus. Sometime the most important step is the first one.


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> I though you might like that. But seriously as you said earlier, why do Churches & preachers wait for baptisms?
> Another question that arises is when someone is bed ridden, in a prison cell, on a cross, or trapped in a mine without a water source, what are we to do?



I agree with you completely here. Men want to put stipulation's on salvation. 

We usually wait a week or so so that family's from others churches can come and see the baptism


----------



## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> I agree one baptism, but there are three types mentioned. I say this one baptism is the one in 1st Corinthians 12:13. This is the baptism into christ (Romans 6:3). There can never be a baptism into water where this is an outward expression symbolizing our death, burial, and resurrection to the world unless we are spiritually baptized.



Sorry, I forgot about your previous post.  We're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this.


----------



## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> I believe all these early baptism y'all are talking about is a spiritual baptism. When you see they believed and were baptized is like now a days us saying they believed and was saved. There was a lot of things that happened in acts that no longer happens now. A man was able to walk by the prophets in the lords name. I have no power like that neither do any of y'all. I believe in anointing with oil but it is by faith. When Paul laid his hands on the 12 and they received the Holy Spirit this may have things that happened at first but not now. Do any of us preacher really believe you have the power to give the Holy Ghost to someone, I think not. I done my best to show through the scripture about the three differant baptism in earlier post. I guess I backing out in this one. I mainly wanted to see what y'all believed about what it takes to be saved. In my beliefs its all about the blood that was shed in Calvery. By his labor for me doing something that I could never do. I have no saving power in myself when I baptize someone. The way I see it if baptism is required for salvation the man of god would have his input in it. The bible says there is no other name given whereby men might be saved. It's all by Jesus. He is the way, the truth, and the life.
> 
> Thanks for all y'all thoughts on this subject



And there in lies the problem......  "the way you see it".
Why not just do it by the example given in God's word?  Why question and analyze the life out of God's word?  Just do it.

In fact, God has ordered you(or someone) to assist new believers in their baptism.  And no, you have no power to give during a person's baptism.  Matter of fact, you and I are pretty insignificant during someone's baptism.
It's all God's work.  Stop denying it.  Stop minimizing it.


----------



## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> I believe all these early baptism y'all are talking about is a spiritual baptism. When you see they believed and were baptized is like now a days us saying they believed and was saved. There was a lot of things that happened in acts that no longer happens now. A man was able to walk by the prophets in the lords name. I have no power like that neither do any of y'all. I believe in anointing with oil but it is by faith. When Paul laid his hands on the 12 and they received the Holy Spirit this may have things that happened at first but not now. Do any of us preacher really believe you have the power to give the Holy Ghost to someone, I think not. I done my best to show through the scripture about the three differant baptism in earlier post. I guess I backing out in this one. I mainly wanted to see what y'all believed about what it takes to be saved. In my beliefs its all about the blood that was shed in Calvery. By his labor for me doing something that I could never do. I have no saving power in myself when I baptize someone. The way I see it if baptism is required for salvation the man of god would have his input in it. The bible says there is no other name given whereby men might be saved. It's all by Jesus. He is the way, the truth, and the life.
> 
> Thanks for all y'all thoughts on this subject



Are you kidding me?  I don't believe you'll find a Baptist Bible college anyplace that teaches what you said above.
You need to do some research!!


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> I though you might like that. But seriously as you said earlier, why do Churches & preachers wait for baptisms?
> Another question that arises is when someone is bed ridden, in a prison cell, on a cross, or trapped in a mine without a water source, what are we to do?





Ronnie T said:


> And there in lies the problem......  "the way you see it".
> Why not just do it by the example given in God's word?  Why question and analyze the life out of God's word?  Just do it.
> 
> In fact, God has ordered you(or someone) to assist new believers in their baptism.  And no, you have no power to give during a person's baptism.  Matter of fact, you and I are pretty insignificant during someone's baptism.
> It's all God's work.  Stop denying it.  Stop minimizing it.




What's your thoughts on what Art said


----------



## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> I agree with you completely here. Men want to put stipulation's on salvation.
> 
> We usually wait a week or so so that family's from others churches can come and see the baptism



Men shouldn't put stipulations on salvation.  But is that an accusation that Peter did just that in Acts 2:38?
Did Peter add a stipulation?  
No, Peter carried out Jesus' command.  So do I.

Baptism isn't a spectator sport!  
The audacity of someone withholding another's baptism.
This is becoming very educational for me.


----------



## M80

Ronnie T said:


> Are you kidding me?  I don't believe you'll find a Baptist Bible college anyplace that teaches what you said above.
> You need to do some research!!



I guess that's why I didn't go to bible college. I would rather let The Lord show me instead of man. I'm not saying anything is wrong with bible college but I can't afford it nor have time. I'm just a country preacher


----------



## M80

mwilliams80 said:


> What's your thoughts on what Art said


----------



## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> I guess that's why I didn't go to bible college. I would rather let The Lord show me instead of man. I'm not saying anything is wrong with bible college but I can't afford it nor have time. I'm just a country preacher



Just be very careful to insure that one is not the other.
.


----------



## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> What's your thoughts on what Art said





mwilliams80 said:


>



Sorry, just saw it.

I've been involved in more than one prison ministry that carried portable baptisteries onto prison grounds.
Once I remember prisoners forming a line with 5 gallon buckets of water to fill a container.
In Afghanistan, holes are dug and lined with ponchos in order for baptisms to be carried out.

I've baptized elderly people in the whirlpool bath in hospitals.
Some weren't able to be baptized, and I trust God's loving grace for those.
I only pray that everyone would be taught enough to make the decision the Ethiopian did in the desert.  "Here's water, can I be baptized?"

Philip, through the Holy Spirit, brought the man to the water with all the knowledge one would need to make the decision for himself.
At that point, Philip, myself, you, and all other's who serve others in baptism become completely and totally insignificant.  I become a meaningless chunk of meat who's only function is to lower and then lift a born again child on God up into a new life.

Just (1) the person being baptized, (2) the Lord Jesus Christ, (3) the dumb cluck being a servant to the others.

I've just this moment received a phone call letting me know 16 year old Colton Birge has passed away.  Colton has MD.  Always in a wheel chair; unable to do anything but barely live.  He was never baptized, but I have great faith that he's with his Lord right now.
But that doesn't change a speck of what's been written, recorded, and commanded from God.

God bless Colton's poor, poor mother.
This is not going to be easy.
.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Sorry to hear about Colton and prayers for his family.

Can someone become a believer today and receive the Holy Spirit a week later? I have noticed most people in the Bible stories were baptized immediately at conversion but not all of them.


----------



## M80

Breaks my heart about the young man. I couldn't imagine that. We will be praying for his family


----------



## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> Breaks my heart about the young man. I couldn't imagine that. We will be praying for his family



He's been pretty sick for several months.  He's very small.
His mother gave him CPR until rescue arrive.  She appears fine now but there's not a doubt in my mind that she's gonna crash and burn a little later on.
Maybe that's the way it should be.
It is what it is.
Thanks for the prayers.
.


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> What's your thoughts on what Art said



I mentioned it earlier in a previous post - we can go through all the "what if's", but the bible still says what it says.  We must remember what our Lord said in Matthew 5:19 - we do not have the right to relax any command God has given in His word.  What if a person sinks into a coma prior to believing... what if he wrecks his car and incurs brain damage... what if he develops Alzheimer's?  As I mentioned earlier, no one ever seems to bring these types of issues up when it comes to belief - only to baptism.

As to why people wait... it's because they don't believe it is essential to salvation.  Again, as mentioned before, where is the place in the NT where believers were baptized the next day, week, month, etc. from when they received the teaching of the gospel?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Bama4me said:


> As to why people wait... it's because they don't believe it is essential to salvation.  Again, as mentioned before, where is the place in the NT where believers were baptized the next day, week, month, etc. from when they received the teaching of the gospel?





Acts 19:
1 It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples.
2 He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
4 Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.
7 There were in all about twelve men


“So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, ‘Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.’” (Acts 9:17, ESV)

He was baptised shortly after the laying of the hands but not when he converted.


----------



## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> Acts 19:
> 1 It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples.
> 2 He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
> 3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
> 4 Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”
> 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
> 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.
> 7 There were in all about twelve men
> 
> 
> “So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, ‘Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.’” (Acts 9:17, ESV)
> 
> He was baptised shortly after the laying of the hands but not when he converted.



Art... have you read the corresponding account found in Acts 22 regarding Saul's conversion?  Also, did Saul receive the Holy Spirit when Ananias laid his hands on him... or did he regain his sight.  Check the text carefully, especially verse 12.  Nowhere in the book of Acts do you see a "non-apostle" laying hands on people and them receiving the Holy Spirit.  The text doesn't say HOW Saul received the Spirit - it could have been directly like the other apostles in Acts 2.  However, you'll agree that even if this wasn't the case, baptism didn't happen days or months after he had heard the message of salvation (like is practiced today).

In reality, though, does it matter?  Ananias told Paul to rise and be baptized and wash away his sins (22:16)... even if he had been given the Holy Spirit, he wasn't saved.  This same scenario is true in Acts 10:44-48... it wasn't the reception of the Holy Spirit which saved Cornelius, it was complying with Peter's command to be baptized.


----------



## barryl

Bama4me said:


> It's called "rightly dividing the word".
> 
> How do you answer 1 Peter 3:21... baptism now saves us? The word "antitypos" is defined as "a thing resembling another" and "a thing formed after a pattern".  Verse 20 said eight souls were saved "through water".  Just as eight people were saved "through water" in Noah's day, people are saved "through water" today in the Christian age.  To claim baptism today is symbolic in verse 21 means the salvation of eight souls in the OT was symbolic also.  You ready to claim that the salvation from destruction in Noah's day was symbolic... consistency mandates that you do if that's how you interpret the passage?
> 
> Btw, no one on this thread has touched Acts 22:16... the passage that it is in baptism when sins are "washed away."  Oh wait... I'm sure that's Holy Spirit baptism... something he couldn't possibly have received while sitting down.


Hold on, the purpuse of baptism was for purification not regeneration, vs 16. All orthodox Jews "according to the Law" verse 13 connected water with purification [John 2:6] not regeneration. Ananias vs12 a Jewish proselyte was orthodox. Paul was "reborn" three days before Ananias mentioned baptism.


----------



## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> Hold on, the purpuse of baptism was for purification not regeneration, vs 16. All orthodox Jews "according to the Law" verse 13 connected water with purification [John 2:6] not regeneration. Ananias vs12 a Jewish proselyte was orthodox. Paul was "reborn" three days before Ananias mentioned baptism.:huh:



Show me!


----------



## Bama4me

barryl said:


> Hold on, the purpuse of baptism was for purification not regeneration, vs 16. All orthodox Jews "according to the Law" verse 13 connected water with purification [John 2:6] not regeneration. Ananias vs12 a Jewish proselyte was orthodox. Paul was "reborn" three days before Ananias mentioned baptism.



"Wash away your sins".  I imagine that every time from then on Saul/Paul had to be baptized in order to wash his sins away?  That's heavy duty twisting right there... but follows the same pattern as your explanation of 1 Peter 3:21.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Bama4me said:


> Art... have you read the corresponding account found in Acts 22 regarding Saul's conversion?  Also, did Saul receive the Holy Spirit when Ananias laid his hands on him... or did he regain his sight.  Check the text carefully, especially verse 12.  Nowhere in the book of Acts do you see a "non-apostle" laying hands on people and them receiving the Holy Spirit.  The text doesn't say HOW Saul received the Spirit - it could have been directly like the other apostles in Acts 2.  However, you'll agree that even if this wasn't the case, baptism didn't happen days or months after he had heard the message of salvation (like is practiced today).
> 
> In reality, though, does it matter?  Ananias told Paul to rise and be baptized and wash away his sins (22:16)... even if he had been given the Holy Spirit, he wasn't saved.  This same scenario is true in Acts 10:44-48... it wasn't the reception of the Holy Spirit which saved Cornelius, it was complying with Peter's command to be baptized.



OK moving on from Ananias and Paul, what about this account of believers before baptism to receive the Holy Spirit? What was the state of the disciples who were believers before their baptism or laying of the hands. What gave them the Holy Spirit, baptism or laying of the hands?

Acts 19:
1 It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples.
2 He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
4 Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.
7 There were in all about twelve men


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Hold on, the purpuse of baptism was for purification *not regeneration*, vs 16. All orthodox Jews "according to the Law" verse 13 connected water with purification [John 2:6] *not regeneration*. Ananias vs12 a Jewish proselyte was orthodox. Paul was "reborn" three days before Ananias mentioned baptism.



"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" - Titus 3:5, KJV AV


----------



## Artfuldodger

Acts 19:6 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.
Why isn't laying of the hands, speaking in tongues, and prophesying a part of Salvation along with baptism?


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> OK moving on from Ananias and Paul, what about this account of believers before baptism to receive the Holy Spirit?
> 
> Acts 19:
> 1 It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples.
> 2 He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
> 3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
> 4 Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”
> 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
> 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.
> 7 There were in all about twelve men



Art, in accordance with those scriptures it appears those gentlemen had believed in Jesus but, not knowing about New Testament baptism, had not be baptized into Christ... Since they had not been baptized into Christ, they had not received the Holy Spirit, so Paul baptized them.
The question:  "Is it possible they were saved but simply had not received the Holy Spirit that comes with baptism"?  I don't think you can call anyone saved who has not received that gift of the Holy Spirit, and, and not had their sins washed away.

So, Paul immediately baptized.
The lesson for me:  Don't leave anything out of my teaching.


----------



## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> Acts 19:6 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.
> Why isn't laying of the hands, speaking in tongues, and prophesying a part of Salvation along with baptism?



That's part of what I'd mentioned to you last week.  The Christians of the first century had no "New Testament".  Thus, they only way people could transmit the whole of the gospel was by supernatural revelation... through gifts such as "prophecy", "teachings", etc.  "Tongues" allowed the brethren to speak to people of a different language w/o having an interpreter... something very useful to people like Paul who traveled from place to place teaching the gospel.  "Interpretation of tongues" would allow people to hear a message from someone who didn't speak their particular language.

These supernatural gifts came when apostles laid hands on people... and examples are found in Acts 8:12-18 and Acts 19:1-6.  According to Ephesians 4:11-16, these gifts were part of the salvation process... they were designed to equip people to know/preach the entire gospel UNTIL the church would become "mature".

Do some reading of these passages...

*  Mark 16:15-18
*  Romans 12:6-8
*  1 Corinthians 12:1-31
*  Ephesians 4:11-16 (helps me the most w/ this topic)
*  1 Peter 4:10-11

Cornelius was BAPTIZED with the Holy Spirit... for a much different purpose than the purpose of gifts given through the hands of the apostles.


----------



## barryl

Ronnie T said:


> Show me!


Romans Ch. 9:9 KJV AV


----------



## barryl

centerpin fan said:


> "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" - Titus 3:5, KJV AV


Regeneration is the act of the Holy Spirit John 3:5-8. The word of God [1 Cor. 6:11] brings about a "washing". [Eph. 5:26] The Holy Spirit applies the blood of Jesus Christ [Rev. 1:5] to the inner man and spiritually circumcises him loose from the flesh Col. 2:10-13


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Romans Ch. 9:9 KJV AV



Are you sure that's the passage you meant to use?


"For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and" Sarah shall have a son."


----------



## barryl

Bama4me said:


> "Wash away your sins".  I imagine that every time from then on Saul/Paul had to be baptized in order to wash his sins away?  That's heavy duty twisting right there... but follows the same pattern as your explanation of 1 Peter 3:21.


Every verse of scripture has one of three applications, Spiritual, Historical, or Doctrinal.


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Regeneration is the act of the Holy Spirit John 3:5-8. The word of God [1 Cor. 6:11] brings about a "washing". [Eph. 5:26] The Holy Spirit applies the blood of Jesus Christ [Rev. 1:5] to the inner man and spiritually circumcises him loose from the flesh Col. 2:10-13



So you don't see any parallel between "Arise, be baptized, and wash your sins away" in Acts 22 and the "washing of regeneration" in Titus 3?


----------



## barryl

centerpin fan said:


> Are you sure that's the passage you meant to use?
> 
> 
> "For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and" Sarah shall have a son."


Just wanted to see if you were watchin' out for me, naw, just pickin' Acts 9:9    better?


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Just wanted to see if you were watchin' out for me, naw, just pickin' Acts 9:9    better?



That's much better, but it still doesn't prove your point.  It says he was blind for three days.  It doesn't say he was saved for three days.


----------



## Bama4me

barryl said:


> Every verse of scripture has one of three applications, Spiritual, Historical, or Doctrinal.



And when it comes to baptism, you classify every one of them in the "non-doctrinal" category.  Question for you Barryl... if 1 Peter 3:21 is not referring to baptism in water, why did God have to remind people that this act was NOT a "removal of dirt from the body"? How else would they confuse something with a bath?


----------



## Bama4me

barryl said:


> Hold on, the purpuse of baptism was for purification not regeneration, vs 16. All orthodox Jews "according to the Law" verse 13 connected water with purification [John 2:6] not regeneration. Ananias vs12 a Jewish proselyte was orthodox. Paul was "reborn" three days before Ananias mentioned baptism.





barryl said:


> Regeneration is the act of the Holy Spirit John 3:5-8. The word of God [1 Cor. 6:11] brings about a "washing". [Eph. 5:26] The Holy Spirit applies the blood of Jesus Christ [Rev. 1:5] to the inner man and spiritually circumcises him loose from the flesh Col. 2:10-13



Let's get this straight.  You say that regeneration is an act of the Holy Spirit and that Saul was regenerated three days prior to Ananias' arrival.  Why did Ananias tell Saul, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."

IF the Holy Spirit regenerates a person, why did Saul not have the Holy Spirit three days earlier... when you say he was regenerated?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> Art, in accordance with those scriptures it appears those gentlemen had believed in Jesus but, not knowing about New Testament baptism, had not be baptized into Christ... Since they had not been baptized into Christ, they had not received the Holy Spirit, so Paul baptized them.
> The question:  "Is it possible they were saved but simply had not received the Holy Spirit that comes with baptism"?  I don't think you can call anyone saved who has not received that gift of the Holy Spirit, and, and not had their sins washed away.
> 
> So, Paul immediately baptized.
> The lesson for me:  Don't leave anything out of my teaching.



How can believers not be saved?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Bama4me said:


> Let's get this straight.  You say that regeneration is an act of the Holy Spirit and that Saul was regenerated three days prior to Ananias' arrival.  Why did Ananias tell Saul, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."
> 
> IF the Holy Spirit regenerates a person, why did Saul not have the Holy Spirit three days earlier... when you say he was regenerated?



Why would Saul/Paul wait three days? Why would Jesus have him take that chance. You would think with the divine intervention going on Jesus would have said "Ananias, come here quickly and baptize this man now."

Do you agree with Ronnie that the disciples in Acts 19 were unsaved believers?


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> How can believers not be saved?



   Good question, hope to see a good answer.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Interesting article on 1 Peter 3:21
Thankfully, though, we don’t have to guess at what Peter means in this verse because he clarifies that for us with the phrase “not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience.” While Peter is connecting baptism with salvation, it is not the act of being baptized that he is referring to (not the removal of dirt from the flesh). Being immersed in water does nothing but wash away dirt. What Peter is referring to is what baptism represents, which is what saves us (an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ). In other words, Peter is simply connecting baptism with belief. It is not the getting-wet part that saves but is the “appeal to God for a clean conscience” which is signified by baptism, that saves us. The appeal to God always comes first. First belief and repentance, then we are baptized to publicly identify ourselves with Christ.

An excellent explanation of this passage is given by Dr. Kenneth Wuest, author of Word Studies in the Greek New Testament. “Water baptism is clearly in the apostle's mind, not the baptism by the Holy Spirit, for he speaks of the waters of the flood as saving the inmates of the ark, and in this verse, of baptism saving believers. But he says that it saves them only as a counterpart. That is, water baptism is the counterpart of the reality, salvation. It can only save as a counterpart, not actually. The Old Testament sacrifices were counterparts of the reality, the Lord Jesus. They did not actually save the believer, only in type. It is not argued here that these sacrifices are analogous to Christian water baptism. The author is merely using them as an illustration of the use of the word 'counterpart.'

Water baptism is the visible testimony to his faith and the salvation he was given in answer to that faith. Peter is careful to inform his readers that he is not teaching baptismal regeneration, namely, that a person who submits to baptism is thereby regenerated, for he says, 'not the putting away of the filth of the flesh.' Baptism, Peter explains, does not wash away the filth of the flesh, either in a literal sense as a bath for the body, nor in a metaphorical sense as a cleansing for the soul. No ceremonies really affect the conscience. But he defines what he means by salvation, in the words 'the answer of a good conscience toward God," and he explains how this is accomplished, namely, 'by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,' in that the believing sinner is identified with Him in that resurrection.”

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-1Peter-3-21.html#ixzz2dst2T0Zp


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> How can believers not be saved?



You mean, 'how could those men have believed yet not have been baptized"?

We probably should use the term 'they believed' loosely.  

They needed to be taught more completely, and Paul took care of that.


----------



## Artfuldodger

No ceremonies really affect the conscience.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> You mean, 'how could those men have believed yet not have been baptized"?
> 
> We probably should use the term 'they believed' loosely.
> 
> They needed to be taught more completely, and Paul took care of that.



And yet they were disciples of John who had been baptized earlier for repentance.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Bama4me said:


> These supernatural gifts came when apostles laid hands on people... and examples are found in Acts 8:12-18 and Acts 19:1-6.  According to Ephesians 4:11-16, these gifts were part of the salvation process... they were designed to equip people to know/preach the entire gospel UNTIL the church would become "mature".
> 
> Do some reading of these passages...
> 
> *  Mark 16:15-18
> *  Romans 12:6-8
> *  1 Corinthians 12:1-31
> *  Ephesians 4:11-16 (helps me the most w/ this topic)
> *  1 Peter 4:10-11
> 
> Cornelius was BAPTIZED with the Holy Spirit... for a much different purpose than the purpose of gifts given through the hands of the apostles.



Cornelius' baptism was a different type baptism than ours?

I understand about all the extras not being needed nowadays. I just wondered why you discarded all the extras but not baptism?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Is it possible that one could receive a measure of the Holy Spirit at conversion and then receive the full indwelling at Baptism?
Otherwise how can we convert without the role of the Holy Spirit? Maybe this measure is an outward dwelling.


----------



## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> Why would Saul/Paul wait three days? Why would Jesus have him take that chance. You would think with the divine intervention going on Jesus would have said "Ananias, come here quickly and baptize this man now."
> 
> Do you agree with Ronnie that the disciples in Acts 19 were unsaved believers?



In answer to your first question, who knows.  I imagine Saul did a LOT of thinking during that three-day period.  It's easy for us to conclude that he should have been ready to give his life to Christ... but he could have needed time to think things through.  Also, remember that not only was Ananias going to baptize him, but he was also going to inform him of God's desire for him to serve as an apostle.  That's a LOT to lay on a guy in a short time frame.  That's all speculation though - just opinions.

In response to your second, that's tough to say.  The text did say that they were disciples (19:1), but they DID have to be baptized with Christ's baptism (implying they were not saved).  Certainly, they could not receive the Holy Spirit without it... but there are conflicting views about these men.  Some believe everyone who was baptized with John's baptism had to be baptized again like the twelve, and cite this passage as the reason.  Others believe all who were baptized by either John or Jesus prior to the cross were "grandfathered into the church", and cite the absence of men like the apostles being baptized again.

There are several things which could have been the case with these men.  One... they could have been baptized with John's baptism BEFORE the cross (while Law of Moses was still in effect).  Two... they could have been baptized with John's baptism AFTER the cross (Apollos was preaching John's baptism in Christian age - Acts 18:25).  Three... they could have been baptized with John's baptism w/o the knowledge that Jesus was "the one" coming after John.  Four... they could have been baptized with John's baptism knowing that Jesus was "the one" - technically making them believers in Jesus.

This I know... this passage comes immediately after the deficiency of Apollos is mentioned.  It's safe to say that even though the Christian Era had begun, the baptism of John was still being taught/believed... even though it was no longer effective for salvation.  One could righty read Acts 18-19 as "all who taught John's baptism needed to be corrected and all who had received John's baptism needed to be baptized in the name of Christ".  In my opinion, the men needed salvation, but I do realize there are a lot of unanswered questions in the passage.


----------



## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> How can believers not be saved?



I think James 2:19 will show you.  "Believers" in the sense it's often used in the NT means people's belief prompted them to do whatever God commanded... not that people simply believed a message.

Look at it this way, Jesus said "whoever believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mark 16:16).  The "belief" that is necessary is one which motivates one to be baptized.  If one doesn't have that type of belief, it's not a saving kind of belief.  In addition to James 2:19, you might check out John 12:42-43.  I know of no one who claims that these people were saved then... but who proudly proclaim that people are saved that way today.


----------



## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> Cornelius' baptism was a different type baptism than ours?
> 
> I understand about all the extras not being needed nowadays. I just wondered why you discarded all the extras but not baptism?



In verse 44, Cornelius was baptized with the Holy Spirit.  In verse 48, Peter commanded water baptism (born of water and Spirit).

The "extras" that you mention were miraculous abilities people had after either being baptized by the Holy Spirit or receiving the Spirit through the hands of apostles.  Those gifts (miraculous abilities) are no longer needed today.


----------



## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> Is it possible that one could receive a measure of the Holy Spirit at conversion and then receive the full indwelling at Baptism?
> Otherwise how can we convert without the role of the Holy Spirit? Maybe this measure is an outward dwelling.



According to Peter, "conversion" takes place at baptism (Acts 2:38).  The people of Samaria believed and were baptized (Acts 8:12)... aka "converted" or "saved" as Jesus would say it in Mark 16:16.  Yet, the Holy Spirit stated those believers had yet to have the Holy Spirit "fallen on them" (Acts 8:16).  Same situation with the twelve men in Acts 19:1-7.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Bama4me said:


> I think James 2:19 will show you.  "Believers" in the sense it's often used in the NT means people's belief prompted them to do whatever God commanded... not that people simply believed a message.
> 
> Look at it this way, Jesus said "whoever believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mark 16:16).  The "belief" that is necessary is one which motivates one to be baptized.  If one doesn't have that type of belief, it's not a saving kind of belief.  In addition to James 2:19, you might check out John 12:42-43.  I know of no one who claims that these people were saved then... but who proudly proclaim that people are saved that way today.



I can see all that but these believers  were disciples of John. I don't see how one could be a Jesus believing disciple and not have been converted. They might not have heard or understood about the Holy Spirit but they did understand about Jesus.

Don't we teach young unbelievers about Jesus and they believe, confess, and repent? Can't we teach them about the Holy Spirit indwelling and baptism after they believe?
That's the way I always thought it was done. The main thing is that they believe Jesus died for their sins. Then they can figure out about the Holy Spirit, baptism, and the Trinity.


----------



## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> I can see all that but these believers  were disciples of John. I don't see how one could be a Jesus believing disciple and not have been converted. They might not have heard or understood about the Holy Spirit but they did understand about Jesus.
> 
> Don't we teach young unbelievers about Jesus and they believe, confess, and repent? Can't we teach them about the Holy Spirit indwelling and baptism after they believe?
> That's the way I always thought it was done. The main thing is that they believe Jesus died for their sins. Then they can figure out about the Holy Spirit, baptism, and the Trinity.



It's the point of one's salvation that we have to determine.  As I told MWill, I don't discount teaching belief as a necessary component to salvation.  Neither do I try to remove repentance or confession from that process.  They are all essential ingredients to obeying the gospel.  But, people are not saved at the point of belief... repentance, or confession.  They are saved at the point of baptism.  You can see it plainly taught in Acts 2:38 and it's clearly stated in Acts 22:16 and 1 Peter 3:21 and a number of other NT passages.  As I said to MWill, I don't try to remove belief from the equation... but most attempt to do exactly that when it comes to baptism.


----------



## M80

I stand firm on its at moment we believe

Ephesians. 1:13. KJV.   In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye BELIEVED, Ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise.


----------



## barryl

barryl said:


> Yeah, that 3rd. grade english is tough, ain't it? Gotta use more than a quarter of the verse. Why is it when a Campbellite reads the word "baptism", he automatically takes it as meaning "water", just like they do in Eph.4:5. It's called scripture "mangling".


Easy boys, don't go into a fit. 1 Peter 3:21 is water baptism, never said it wasn't. Eph. 4:4-5 is spirit baptism.


----------



## hobbs27

Bama4me said:


> It's the point of one's salvation that we have to determine.  As I told MWill, I don't discount teaching belief as a necessary component to salvation.  Neither do I try to remove repentance or confession from that process.  They are all essential ingredients to obeying the gospel.  But, people are not saved at the point of belief... repentance, or confession.  They are saved at the point of baptism.  You can see it plainly taught in Acts 2:38 and it's clearly stated in Acts 22:16 and 1 Peter 3:21 and a number of other NT passages.  As I said to MWill, I don't try to remove belief from the equation... but most attempt to do exactly that when it comes to baptism.



Baptism to most people is an ordinance, such as communion. Some folks consider foot washing an ordinance, but all have one thing in common.To partake one must first be a believer. Some people will argue that a person MUST partake in communion to be saved...I see it the other way around just as Baptism, one must be saved to partake.


----------



## jmharris23

Everybody's got opinions......I always wonder when we get to heaven what we'll find out we were right on, and where we were wrong.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Baptism to most people is an ordinance, such as communion. Some folks consider foot washing an ordinance, but all have one thing in common.To partake one must first be a believer. Some people will argue that a person MUST partake in communion to be saved...I see it the other way around just as Baptism, one must be saved to partake.



I agree, one must become a believer first and then the other things can happen.


----------



## M80

jmharris23 said:


> Everybody's got opinions......I always wonder when we get to heaven what we'll find out we were right on, and where we were wrong.



I don't think we will care when we get there


----------



## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> Baptism to most people is an ordinance, such as communion. Some folks consider foot washing an ordinance, but all have one thing in common.To partake one must first be a believer. Some people will argue that a person MUST partake in communion to be saved...I see it the other way around just as Baptism, one must be saved to partake.



Acknowledge a lot of people believe this... but you never see in Scripture anything like "he who believes and takes communion will be saved", "repent and take communion for the forgiveness of your sins," "rise/take communion and have your sins forgiven", or "communion likewise now saves us."  Nor do you see these types of statements made regarding foot washing.

You do, however, see these things written about baptism.  However, over the years, people have creatively come up with ways to "write out" the necessity of baptism.  In the end, it's not going to matter what anyone said... it's what our Lord, His apostles, and the inspired writers said about it.


----------



## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> I agree, one must become a believer first and then the other things can happen.



I would agree belief is the first step to salvation... but it's not the only step one must take.  Otherwise, Peter would have told people in Acts 2:38 they were already saved... because they had already believed.


----------



## M80

mwilliams80 said:


> I stand firm on its at moment we believe
> 
> Ephesians. 1:13. KJV.   In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye BELIEVED, Ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise.



No thoughts on this one


----------



## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> No thoughts on this one



My thought is the Bible does not consist of just one verse.  Many seem to believe the Bible begins and ends with John 3:16.


----------



## Ronnie T

The Bible speaks often concerning all the what's, when, and where's of salvation.  But every verses doesn't necessarily speak directly to the activity and moment of salvation.

Example:    1 Timothy 4:16  Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
.


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> No thoughts on this one



MWill... please answer this question.  Had you been in the city of Jerusalem on Pentecost (Acts 2:1ff) and (1) heard the gospel message Peter preached(2) asked Peter/rest of the apostles, "Men and brothers, what shall I do", and (3) was told you needed to "repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and be given the gift of the Holy Spirit," what would you have done?  What would you have done when he pleaded with you and others saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation"?

Would you have looked Peter in the eye and said "I was saved when I believed the message?"  Would you say "I already have the Holy Spirit... so I don't need you to give Him to me again?"  Would you say, "Ephesians 1:13 and John 3:16 state all I need to do is "believe?"  I'm curious... what would you have said or done in response?


----------



## Israel

a peculiar question I sometimes hear...

Suppose you have never been "saved" as you think of it...but...you can be...

Can't take a stand on "well, I been saved and walking with the Lord 20 something, thirty something, forty something...etc...years... 

Disappointed?
or

Still in?


----------



## M80

Bama4me said:


> MWill... please answer this question.  Had you been in the city of Jerusalem on Pentecost (Acts 2:1ff) and (1) heard the gospel message Peter preached(2) asked Peter/rest of the apostles, "Men and brothers, what shall I do", and (3) was told you needed to "repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and be given the gift of the Holy Spirit," what would you have done?  What would you have done when he pleaded with you and others saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation"?
> 
> Would you have looked Peter in the eye and said "I was saved when I believed the message?"  Would you say "I already have the Holy Spirit... so I don't need you to give Him to me again?"  Would you say, "Ephesians 1:13 and John 3:16 state all I need to do is "believe?"  I'm curious... what would you have said or done in response?



I would tell him Paul said to the Romans for with the heart man believeth unto salvation and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. I would tell him that Jesu told us to believe in him. Jesus said you believe in god, believe also in me. I would tell Peter that while John was baptizing our lord John said " behold the lamb of god that takes away sins". I would also say that brother Paul said through the inspiration of god that whosever believeth in thy heart, thou shall be saved. 

Salvation is a heart thing, believing involves repentence of the heart. The father draws us to his son for salvation by the Holy Spirit to realize that Jesus took my place on the cross. He died for me. It should a been me hanging there paying for my sin. Without the shedding of blood there is no repentence. When the Holy Spirit revealed to me that I was lost and on my way to he11, I realized Jesus the way, the truth, and the life, no man comes unto the father but by me. I believed he was my savior with a repenting heart and received him as my personal savior. I expressed what The Lord did on the inside by water baptism.


----------



## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> I would tell him Paul said to the Romans for with the heart man believeth unto salvation and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. I would tell him that Jesu told us to believe in him. Jesus said you believe in god, believe also in me. I would tell Peter that while John was baptizing our lord John said " behold the lamb of god that takes away sins". I would also say that brother Paul said through the inspiration of god that whosever believeth in thy heart, thou shall be saved.



So Paul trumps Peter?


----------



## M80

Nope


----------



## Artfuldodger

I would say to Peter, what other works must I do, forgive others? love God? help the sick? love my neighbor?

Then Peter would say, Get your heart right first.


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> I would tell him Paul said to the Romans for with the heart man believeth unto salvation and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. I would tell him that Jesu told us to believe in him. Jesus said you believe in god, believe also in me. I would tell Peter that while John was baptizing our lord John said " behold the lamb of god that takes away sins". I would also say that brother Paul said through the inspiration of god that whosever believeth in thy heart, thou shall be saved.
> 
> Salvation is a heart thing, believing involves repentence of the heart. The father draws us to his son for salvation by the Holy Spirit to realize that Jesus took my place on the cross. He died for me. It should a been me hanging there paying for my sin. Without the shedding of blood there is no repentence. When the Holy Spirit revealed to me that I was lost and on my way to he11, I realized Jesus the way, the truth, and the life, no man comes unto the father but by me. I believed he was my savior with a repenting heart and received him as my personal savior. I expressed what The Lord did on the inside by water baptism.



You do realize that (1) Paul wasn't even a Christian yet and (2) Romans or any other epistles he penned weren't  written yet - it would be years in the future?  You also realize that the very one who would pen John 3:16 was in agreement with what Peter said - the question was directed to all of the apostles and John was in that group? Finally, you realize you would be explaining your understanding to an inspired apostle - one who had been baptized with the Holy Spirit earlier that day and the one God had selected to preach the very first gospel message on Pentecost?

What you're really  saying is that you know more about salvation than did Peter... but here's the biggest issue you have to explain.  The very apostle you charge with having an incorrect view of salvation is the very apostle who was involved in the story you cite is the pattern to follow - Cornelius'.  I guess he must have "converted" people in the improper way in Acts 2 but learned better by Acts 10?  

Sorry... but I'll stick with what Peter said.  GOD said that 3,000 people "were added to them that day"... a clear reference to them being saved and simultaneously added to the church.  That's not man giving his opinion, that's a inspired writer penning it.  IF it was good enough that God said they were saved in following this pattern, I think I'll stay with that process.  Can't get over the fact you would attempt to teach an inspired apostle in religious matters.


----------



## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> Nope



Of course you did.
You just told off the man who had been given the keys to the kingdom of heaven.


----------



## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> I would say to Peter, what other works must I do, forgive others? love God? help the sick? love my neighbor?
> 
> Then Peter would say, Get your heart right first.



We don't have to guess what Peter said... he told those people what to do in order to be saved.  "For forgiveness of sins" is as plain as it gets.


----------



## M80

So I guess Paul was wrong what he wrote to the Romans. I never told an apostle off. Peter was inspired by The Lord. The whole bible is. I guess y'all can argue your point on water cleansing someone, but I claim the blood. Why did Jesus say no man cometh to the father but by me, he didn't say by water


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> So I guess Paul was wrong what he wrote to the Romans. I never told an apostle off. Peter was inspired by The Lord. The whole bible is. I guess y'all can argue your point on water cleansing someone, but I claim the blood. Why did Jesus say no man cometh to the father but by me



Have you not read earlier posts?  You don't get the fact NO ONE is saying the water cleanses?  Read Ephesians 1:7 and ask "how does one get 'in Christ'."  The answer is given in Galatians 3:27 - and it's baptism.  JESUS, not man, said we make contact with His blood in baptism.  Had He mandated any other action as that point, we would be bound to obey Him IF we wanted to be saved.

You mentioned earlier that no one wanted to address Ephesians 1:13... I've noticed you've observed "the Passover" on Mark 16:16, Acts 22:16, and 1 Peter 3:21.


----------



## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> So I guess Paul was wrong what he wrote to the Romans.



Paul preached the same gospel as Peter.  If you want to use Romans, check out chapter 6, verses 1-5.


----------



## M80

centerpin fan said:


> Paul preached the same gospel as Peter.  If you want to use Romans, check out chapter 6, verses 1-5.



Yes I use this and already went over this. Baptism into Christ. This is spiritually baptism, not water baptism


----------



## M80

I'm sorry but I just don't see this as others do. I've been baptized, but I do not think it has anything to do with salvation. So I'm going to leave it at that for me


----------



## hummerpoo

If you are thinking that this thread is an attempt to determine what men must do to get what men want from God, or what men must do to insure that God gets His work done correctly, you are not alone.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Bama4me said:


> You do realize that (1) Paul wasn't even a Christian yet and (2) Romans or any other epistles he penned weren't  written yet - it would be years in the future?  You also realize that the very one who would pen John 3:16 was in agreement with what Peter said - the question was directed to all of the apostles and John was in that group? Finally, you realize you would be explaining your understanding to an inspired apostle - one who had been baptized with the Holy Spirit earlier that day and the one God had selected to preach the very first gospel message on Pentecost?
> 
> What you're really  saying is that you know more about salvation than did Peter... but here's the biggest issue you have to explain.  The very apostle you charge with having an incorrect view of salvation is the very apostle who was involved in the story you cite is the pattern to follow - Cornelius'.  I guess he must have "converted" people in the improper way in Acts 2 but learned better by Acts 10?
> 
> Sorry... but I'll stick with what Peter said.  GOD said that 3,000 people "were added to them that day"... a clear reference to them being saved and simultaneously added to the church.  That's not man giving his opinion, that's a inspired writer penning it.  IF it was good enough that God said they were saved in following this pattern, I think I'll stay with that process.  Can't get over the fact you would attempt to teach an inspired apostle in religious matters.



But now that Paul is a Christian and mwilliams knows what Paul knows, couldn't you say we are more inspired than Peter? Atleast we have more inspired Scriptures we must use than Peter had to use.


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> But now that Paul is a Christian and mwilliams knows what Paul knows, couldn't you say we are more inspired than Peter? Atleast we have more inspired Scriptures we must use than Peter had to use.



Easy on me knowing what Paul knows. I know what you are saying, but I'm worthless as worm dirt


----------



## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> But now that Paul is a Christian and mwilliams knows what Paul knows, couldn't you say we are more inspired than Peter? Atleast we have more inspired Scriptures we must use than Peter had to use.



According to what Jesus said, the things Peter said on Pentecost came directly from the Holy Spirit. Thus, it doesn't really matter what PETER knew... the Holy Spirit (who knows all) was directly leading him to say those things... the same Holy Spirit who would inspire Paul and others to write the NT letters.


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> But now that Paul is a Christian and mwilliams knows what Paul knows, couldn't you say we are more inspired than Peter? Atleast we have more inspired Scriptures we must use than Peter had to use.



          I'm disowning you as of today.


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> Yes I use this and already went over this. Baptism into Christ. This is spiritually baptism, not water baptism



There is no such thing as "non-spiritual baptism" found in Scripture... water baptism IS spiritual.  Otherwise, the NT would not mention that sins are forgiven when a person is baptized. In Romans 6, the word "burial" is connected to one's baptism.  Just as "removal of dirt from the flesh" makes it clear that 1 Peter 3:21 refers to baptism in water, this word makes it very plain that the baptism of water is the type implied here.  See Hebrews 10:22, 1 Corinthians 6:11, and Revelation 1:5 and you will see similar language that clearly references baptism in water.


----------



## Ronnie T

Acts 2: 47 And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> I'm disowning you as of today.



My bad, wrong choice of word or wording. We're not more inspired than Peter or Paul. What I meant was we have all of Paul's inspired work that we must use besides just Peter's and the other Apostles.


----------



## hobbs27

Bama4me said:


> There is no such thing as "non-spiritual baptism" found in Scripture... water baptism IS spiritual..



So, do you disagree with this definition?


The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon
 Strong's Number:   907	  
Original Word	Word Origin
baptizo	from a derivative of (911)
Transliterated Word	TDNT Entry
Baptizo	1:529,92
Phonetic Spelling	Parts of Speech
bap-tid'-zo     	
 Definition
to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe
to overwhelm
Not to be confused with 911, bapto. The clearest example that showsthe meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physicianNicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making picklesand is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that inorder to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be 'dipped'(bapto) into boiling water and then 'baptised' (baptizo) in thevinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in asolution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act ofbaptising the vegetable, produces a permanent change. When used in the New Testament, this word more often refers to ourunion and identification with Christ than to our water baptism. e.g.Mark 16:16. 'He that believes and is baptised shall be saved'.Christ is saying that mere intellectual assent is not enough. Theremust be a union with him, a real change, like the vegetable to thepickle! Bible Study Magazine, James Montgomery Boice, May 1989.


----------



## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> So, do you disagree with this definition?
> 
> 
> The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon
> Strong's Number:   907
> Original Word	Word Origin
> baptizo	from a derivative of (911)
> Transliterated Word	TDNT Entry
> Baptizo	1:529,92
> Phonetic Spelling	Parts of Speech
> bap-tid'-zo
> Definition
> to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
> to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe
> to overwhelm
> Not to be confused with 911, bapto. The clearest example that showsthe meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physicianNicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making picklesand is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that inorder to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be 'dipped'(bapto) into boiling water and then 'baptised' (baptizo) in thevinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in asolution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act ofbaptising the vegetable, produces a permanent change. When used in the New Testament, this word more often refers to ourunion and identification with Christ than to our water baptism. e.g.Mark 16:16. 'He that believes and is baptised shall be saved'.Christ is saying that mere intellectual assent is not enough. Theremust be a union with him, a real change, like the vegetable to thepickle! Bible Study Magazine, James Montgomery Boice, May 1989.



The word we've commonly utilized is baptize... which means to dip.  I've never said something doesn't happen inside when one is baptized... MWill is the one who implied there was a "non-spiritual baptism" (he actually called it water baptism).  According to Romans 6, when we are baptized we are raised to walk in newness of life... of course there is a change.  However, I don't agree with your writer... he says that baptism produces a permanent change.  That's a hint toward OSAS - which I'm certain he'd subscribe to given his biographical info.


----------



## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> My bad, wrong choice of word or wording. We're not more inspired than Peter or Paul. What I meant was we have all of Paul's inspired work that we must use besides just Peter's and the other Apostles.



You're missing the point.  The question is "would the Holy Spirit lead Peter to say something which (1) was wrong and (2) would contradict further inspired writers?  One thing I know... NO ONE on the day of Pentecost cited any passage from Romans, John, Ephesians, or any other NT letter because none of them were written yet.  And, when they would be written, they would be inspired by the same Holy Spirit who spoke through Peter in Acts 2.


----------



## centerpin fan

> When used in the New Testament, this word more often refers to our union and identification with Christ than to our water baptism. e.g.Mark 16:16. 'He that believes and is baptised shall be saved'.Christ is saying that mere intellectual assent is not enough. Theremust be a *union with him*, a real change, like the vegetable to thepickle! Bible Study Magazine, James Montgomery Boice, May 1989.



BAPTISM IS THE UNION!


Romans 6:1-5:

What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.


Jeez, Louise!


----------



## Ronnie T

centerpin fan said:


> BAPTISM IS THE UNION!
> 
> 
> Romans 6:1-5:
> 
> What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
> 
> For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.
> 
> 
> Jeez, Louise!



There is the meat of the discussion.

The two primary differences in Peter and Paul's words spoken in Acts, and Peter and Paul's words spoken in other places (including Romans) is this.......In Acts they were speaking to people who had not been baptized.  In Romans Paul was speaking to people who had already been baptized.

In Romans, Paul was not teaching how to obtain salvation.  Rather, Paul was educating, encouraging, and admonishing those who were already saved.


----------



## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> I'm sorry but I just don't see this as others do. I've been baptized, but I do not think it has anything to do with salvation. So I'm going to leave it at that for me


I believe it to be an ordinance of God and a believer submits to it. I see it as the first act of obedience. I also believe a person can have faith in Christ, not be baptized, and still be justified. A person may be baptized without faith in Christ, and not be justified.


----------



## hobbs27

gemcgrew said:


> I believe it to be an ordinance of God and a believer submits to it. I see it as the first act of obedience. I also believe a person can have faith in Christ, not be baptized, and still be justified. A person may be baptized without faith in Christ, and not be justified.



I agree. John could only baptize with water and told people just how insignificant his baptism was. He also told them there was one coming that would baptize in the spirit and fire.
 That's the union! It is a spiritual baptism with Christ, not a preacher in a pool.


----------



## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> I agree. John could only baptize with water and told people just how insignificant his baptism was. He also told them there was one coming that would baptize in the spirit and fire.
> That's the union! It is a spiritual baptism with Christ ...



But ...



Bama4me said:


> There is no such thing as "non-spiritual baptism" found in Scripture... water baptism IS spiritual.


----------



## hobbs27

centerpin fan said:


> But ...



I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Union with the Holy Ghost would be the spiritual baptism in which we are referring.

Then this in Acts1:5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."


----------



## Ronnie T

I simply don't understand it.

Jesus Christ does not deserve for Christians to ignore His COMMANDMENT concerning baptism.  It was one of Jesus' very few direct commandments concerning salvation.

Jesus' words weren't confusing.  
Paul referred to it as the Christian's circumcision.
Peter said it is that through which a person finds salvation!

Yet so many treat baptism as some silly human prank that makes no sense to an intelligent human being.
Ignoring what Jesus say.

Saying things like:  "will, I believe this. and "John 3:16 says this".

Leaving behind the very words of Jesus in favor of the words that were never intended to replace the words concerning baptism.

I pray that God, in all His grace and mercy, will forgive the ease of your willingness to simply set aside His decree, and the teaching of His apostles on the subject.

But I don't understand it.
And as always, I disappointed in all the rhetoric.


----------



## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
> 
> *Union with the Holy Ghost* would be the spiritual baptism in which we are referring.
> 
> Then this in Acts1:5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."




Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. - Acts 2:38


----------



## jmharris23

Ronnie T said:


> I simply don't understand it.
> 
> Jesus Christ does not deserve for Christians to ignore His COMMANDMENT concerning baptism.  It was one of Jesus' very few direct commandments concerning salvation.
> 
> Jesus' words weren't confusing.
> Paul referred to it as the Christian's circumcision.
> Peter said it is that through which a person finds salvation!
> 
> Yet so many treat baptism as some silly human prank that makes no sense to an intelligent human being.
> Ignoring what Jesus say.
> 
> Saying things like:  "will, I believe this. and "John 3:16 says this".
> 
> Leaving behind the very words of Jesus in favor of the words that were never intended to replace the words concerning baptism.
> 
> I pray that God, in all His grace and mercy, will forgive the ease of your willingness to simply set aside His decree, and the teaching of His apostles on the subject.
> 
> But I don't understand it.
> And as always, I disappointed in all the rhetoric.



I'm late to this discussion and haven't read the whole thread, but do I understand correctly that you believe without water baptism there is no salvation?


----------



## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
> 
> Union with the Holy Ghost would be the spiritual baptism in which we are referring.
> 
> Then this in Acts1:5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."



If I'm reading you correctly, you are saying that it is Holy Spirit baptism that saves a person... correct?  That would be the " spiritual baptism"?


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> I believe it to be an ordinance of God and a believer submits to it. I see it as the first act of obedience. I also believe a person can have faith in Christ, not be baptized, and still be justified. A person may be baptized without faith in Christ, and not be justified.



I agree with this. It's the first commandment a new believer should do. Then he should start the other obedience commands.
I oubt every person that's been baptized is a Christian and not every Christian has been baptized. 
We're not saying a Christian shouldn't be baptized for in fact he should.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Acts 1:5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

Why was their salvation jeopardized by making them wait a few days?


----------



## Ronnie T

jmharris23 said:


> I'm late to this discussion and haven't read the whole thread, but do I understand correctly that you believe without water baptism there is no salvation?



It isn't about what I believe.
It's simply about reading what God has recorded for us, and accepting it without question.

It's about respecting the written word of God enough to never say, "Nay, you don't have to be baptized if you don't want to".

Nothing in the Bible suggests that baptism is a "work".

Jesus was baptized, against the advise of John, to 'fulfill all righteousness'.  Yet today Christians teachers tell people you don't have to be baptized!!!!!!!

Of course we're saved by the blood of Jesus, God's grace; but, Peter said it is in baptism that we are saved.  
How can that be so neatly dismissed?

Why can't we just do it the way it was done in the 1st century?  Why should it change?  There's no excuse.
It makes no sense.
.


----------



## panfried0419

So since I have only been poured and sprinkled and I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, am I saved?...or do the internet evangelists think I am doomed?


----------



## hobbs27

Bama4me said:


> If I'm reading you correctly, you are saying that it is Holy Spirit baptism that saves a person... correct?  That would be the " spiritual baptism"?



It is Christ that saves, but yes upon regeneration Christ baptizes us in the Holy Ghost.


----------



## centerpin fan

panfried0419 said:


> So since I have only been poured and sprinkled and I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, am I saved?...or do the internet evangelists think I am doomed?




See here.  (BTW, Ronnie is a real evangelist.  He just does this internet thing in his spare time.)




Ronnie T said:


> It isn't about what I believe.
> It's simply about reading what God has recorded for us, and accepting it without question.


----------



## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> It is Christ that saves, but yes upon regeneration Christ baptizes us in the Holy Ghost.



Agreed ... yet we differ on baptism.


----------



## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> It is Christ that saves, but yes upon regeneration Christ baptizes us in the Holy Ghost.



Where does belief fit in your equation of salvation... before or after baptism of the Holy Spirit? Also, where does baptism in water fit in the equation?  If you will, help me see the order.


----------



## hobbs27

Bama4me said:


> Where does belief fit in your equation of salvation... before or after baptism of the Holy Spirit? Also, where does baptism in water fit in the equation?  If you will, help me see the order.



Belief is required. It is by our faith, and His grace that we are saved, so it is before...let me be clear according to scripture. There is receiving the Holy Spirit and then there is receiving the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Two different things, I believe one can receive the the Holy Spirit (indwelling) but not the gifts as did the Samaratins, until they had hands laid upon them.

From my personal experience the order was such.
1) Faith in that Jesus Christ hung on the cross if not for anyone elses sins but mine..it was my sin that nailed Him there.
2) A drawing to unite with Christ through the Holy Spirit.
3) Repentance 
4) Acceptance by Christ
5) Regeneration, made into a new creature. I was a new person, and when I lifted my eyes from prayer those standing around me looked new too. The love God had just placed in my heart felt as if there was no room to contain it.
I knew if I died at that moment I was taken care of.

Water Baptism to me was not a part of the salvation process, but a ceremony that a Christian should do to make an outward expression of what had taken place inwardly as representing the old man dying and the new lifted in ressurection with Jesus Christ.


----------



## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> Belief is required. It is by our faith, and His grace that we are saved, so it is before...let me be clear according to scripture. There is receiving the Holy Spirit and then there is receiving the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Two different things, I believe one can receive the the Holy Spirit (indwelling) but not the gifts as did the Samaratins, until they had hands laid upon them.
> 
> From my personal experience the order was such.
> 1) Faith in that Jesus Christ hung on the cross if not for anyone elses sins but mine..it was my sin that nailed Him there.
> 2) A drawing to *unite with Christ* through the Holy Spirit.
> 3) Repentance
> 4) Acceptance by Christ
> 5) Regeneration, made into a new creature. I was a new person, and when I lifted my eyes from prayer those standing around me looked new too. The love God had just placed in my heart felt as if there was no room to contain it.
> I knew if I died at that moment I was taken care of.
> 
> Water Baptism to me was not a part of the salvation process, but a ceremony that a Christian should do to make an outward expression of what had taken place inwardly as representing the old man dying and the new lifted in ressurection with Jesus Christ.




There it is again.  Where have I seen that before?


Romans 6:1-5

What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?  By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?   Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?   We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.


----------



## hobbs27

centerpin fan said:


> There it is again.  Where have I seen that before?
> 
> 
> Romans 6:1-5
> 
> What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?  By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?   Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?   We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
> 
> For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.



Strange thing about Romans 6 that keeps the debate going. The word water never shows up.


----------



## Artfuldodger

panfried0419 said:


> So since I have only been poured and sprinkled and I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, am I saved?...or do the internet evangelists think I am doomed?



If you've ever fell out of that kayak, your safe. Seriously water is water. I was raised Baptist, they believe in total immersion. That's the way I was bapitsed. I never got baptised as an infant. That would be the safest insurance.  My Penticostal friend tells me I'm doomed because I wasn't baptized in the name of Jesus. So even after we decide we have to be baptized ther are still different requirements of the baptism. I've also  been told the person baptising you has to be a Christian.


----------



## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> Strange thing about Romans 6 that keeps the debate going. The word water never shows up.



Maybe because Paul thought it was so obvious.  As your link noted before, the work baptize means to dip, plunge, or immerse.  Paul speaks of a burial and resurrection.  (We are buried in water and raised out of the water.)  Besides, water baptism is mentioned throughout the NT.

"Spiritual baptism" has been referenced several times in this thread.  Does the phrase "spiritual baptism" occur anywhere in the NT?


----------



## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> Strange thing about Romans 6 that keeps the debate going. The word water never shows up.



... but the word "united" does.  As you and Boice have correctly noted, we must be united with Christ.  I did a quick search on the word "united" in the NT, and Romans 6 is the only passage that tells us how that happens.


----------



## centerpin fan

centerpin fan said:


> Does the phrase *"spiritual baptism"* occur anywhere in the NT?



"No results found" in a search at Bible Gateway.


----------



## hobbs27

*last*



centerpin fan said:


> "No results found" in a search at Bible Gateway.



Post #289


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> "Spiritual baptism" has been referenced several times in this thread.  Does the phrase "spiritual baptism" occur anywhere in the NT?


The NT is more focused on the WHO, rather than the HOW.
I see baptism as a picture of redemption(substitutionary) and spiritual resurrection (Rom. 6:3-6).


----------



## M80

Just thinking out loud hear. Since Jesus shed his blood and its the blood that cleanses, this spiritual baptism( the inner man being cleansed and redeemed), how does he be cleaned. Are we not washed with his blood?  Are we not dipped in his blood(spiritually). Is this body we are living with redeemed. I think not, this flesh is born corruptible and will remain. Flesh and blood will not enter the kingdom of god. Could this spiritually baptism of the Holy Ghost be when we are submerged in his blood to cleanse us


----------



## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> From my personal experience the order was such.
> 1) Faith in that Jesus Christ hung on the cross if not for anyone elses sins but mine..it was my sin that nailed Him there.
> 2) A drawing to unite with Christ through the Holy Spirit.
> 3) Repentance
> 4) Acceptance by Christ
> 5) Regeneration, made into a new creature.


Hobbs, using the listed components, here is the way I see it.

1) Acceptance by Christ (eternal goes both ways)
2) Drawing
3) Regeneration (wrought about in time by the Holy Spirit)
4) Belief, faith, repentance (gifts of God)


----------



## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> Just thinking out loud hear. Since Jesus shed his blood and its the blood that cleanses, this spiritual baptism( the inner man being cleansed and redeemed), how does he be cleaned. Are we not washed with his blood?  Are we not dipped in his blood(spiritually). Is this body we are living with redeemed. I think not, this flesh is born corruptible and will remain. Flesh and blood will not enter the kingdom of god. Could this spiritually baptism of the Holy Ghost be when we are submerged in his blood to cleanse us


“Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all-things are become new.”

This is a new creation altogether. It is not an object that has been changed, it is a new creation.


----------



## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> Post #289



... does not include the phrase "spiritual baptism" (as opposed to unspiritual water baptism.)


----------



## hobbs27

centerpin fan said:


> ... does not include the phrase "spiritual baptism" (as opposed to unspiritual water baptism.)



Guess what. Searched water baptism in the bible gateway page you searched, for spiritual baptism in bible. Response? No results found! So not only does the phrase spiritual baptism not show up in the bible, neither does water baptism.....so the debate continues.


----------



## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> Just thinking out loud hear. Since Jesus shed his blood and its the blood that cleanses, this spiritual baptism( the inner man being cleansed and redeemed), how does he be cleaned. Are we not washed with his blood?  Are we not dipped in his blood(spiritually). Is this body we are living with redeemed. I think not, this flesh is born corruptible and will remain. Flesh and blood will not enter the kingdom of god. Could this spiritually baptism of the Holy Ghost be when we are submerged in his blood to cleanse us



Can somebody please look at these passages and tell me which ones are spiritual baptism and which ones are unspiritual water baptism?

Acts 2:38
Acts 8:36-38
Acts 9:18
Acts 10:47-48
Acts 16:33
Acts 22:16
Romans 6:1-5
1 Corinthians 1:13-17
Galatians 3:26-27
Colossians 2:12
Ephesians 4:5
Titus 3:5


----------



## Artfuldodger

I was reading this man's approach to baptism. First you must understand his approach. 
The argument about what Peter said and what Paul said may apply to New-Creation Christians and how it relates to us as told by Paul. Do we always go by the latest instructions(Paul) like we did in the military?
This link shows the "rings" he is discussing:
http://withchrist.org/aboutus.htm

APPROACH: Our approach to Scripture is to ideally focus on those sections of the Word specifically written to New-Creation Christians--Paul's Epistles.  This is not meant to diminish other portions of the Word, but to establish an initial priority.  When adequately established in basic Christian tenets, the believer can then safely study and understand other portions of both the NT and OT.  As shown is the graphic below, the believer's focus should be upon Paul's Epistle (the blue dot in the center), then, move outward to incorporate the remainder of the NT (the inner green ring).  Finally, the believer can safely incorporation and understand the portions of the OT (shown by the outer tan ring).  Using this approach helps ensure that new believers aren't overwhelmed by the seemingly mundane details found in the OT.

Water baptism does NOT save or convey any form of grace (means), as erroneously taught by: 

The Roman Catholic Church 
The Episcopal Church 
The Methodist Church 
The Lutheran Church 
and several churches of the Reformed tradition 
Water baptism is NOT part of the Gospel revealed to the Church by the Apostle Paul (1 Cor. 1:17) as erroneously taught by: 

The Church of Christ - Campbellite 
The Disciples of Christ - Campbellite 
The Christian Church - Campbellite 
and several Baptist and Pentecostal/charismatic churches 
Confusion regarding the topics of water and Spirit baptism is most often due to non-dispensational interpretations of Scripture--in particular the Gospels and the Book of Acts. 

Water baptism, if practiced at all, should convey and communicate the reality of our spiritual baptism, (1 Cor. 12:13) into the Body of Christ which was once-for-all formed at Pentecost and recorded in Acts 2.

http://www.withchrist.org/baptism.htm


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> I was reading this man's approach to baptism. First you must understand his approach.
> The argument about what Peter said and what Paul said may apply to New-Creation Christians and how it relates to us as told by Paul. Do we always go by the latest instructions(Paul) like we did in the military?
> This link shows the "rings" he is discussing:
> http://withchrist.org/aboutus.htm
> 
> APPROACH: Our approach to Scripture is to ideally focus on those sections of the Word specifically written to New-Creation Christians--Paul's Epistles.  This is not meant to diminish other portions of the Word, but to establish an initial priority.  When adequately established in basic Christian tenets, the believer can then safely study and understand other portions of both the NT and OT.  As shown is the graphic below, the believer's focus should be upon Paul's Epistle (the blue dot in the center), then, move outward to incorporate the remainder of the NT (the inner green ring).  Finally, the believer can safely incorporation and understand the portions of the OT (shown by the outer tan ring).  Using this approach helps ensure that new believers aren't overwhelmed by the seemingly mundane details found in the OT.
> 
> Water baptism does NOT save or convey any form of grace (means), as erroneously taught by:
> 
> The Roman Catholic Church
> The Episcopal Church
> The Methodist Church
> The Lutheran Church
> and several churches of the Reformed tradition
> Water baptism is NOT part of the Gospel revealed to the Church by the Apostle Paul (1 Cor. 1:17) as erroneously taught by:
> 
> The Church of Christ - Campbellite
> The Disciples of Christ - Campbellite
> The Christian Church - Campbellite
> and several Baptist and Pentecostal/charismatic churches
> *Confusion regarding the topics of water and Spirit baptism is most often due to non-dispensational interpretations of Scripture--in particular the Gospels and the Book of Acts.*
> 
> Water baptism, if practiced at all, should convey and communicate the reality of our spiritual baptism, (1 Cor. 12:13) into the Body of Christ which was once-for-all formed at Pentecost and recorded in Acts 2.
> 
> http://www.withchrist.org/baptism.htm



Did barryl write that?


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> I was reading this man's approach to baptism. First you must understand his approach.
> The argument about what Peter said and what Paul said may apply to New-Creation Christians and how it relates to us as told by Paul. Do we always go by the latest instructions(Paul) like we did in the military?
> This link shows the "rings" he is discussing:
> http://withchrist.org/aboutus.htm
> 
> APPROACH: Our approach to Scripture is to ideally focus on those sections of the Word specifically written to New-Creation Christians--Paul's Epistles.  This is not meant to diminish other portions of the Word, but to establish an initial priority.  When adequately established in basic Christian tenets, the believer can then safely study and understand other portions of both the NT and OT.  As shown is the graphic below, the believer's focus should be upon Paul's Epistle (the blue dot in the center), then, move outward to incorporate the remainder of the NT (the inner green ring).  Finally, the believer can safely incorporation and understand the portions of the OT (shown by the outer tan ring).  Using this approach helps ensure that new believers aren't overwhelmed by the seemingly mundane details found in the OT.
> 
> Water baptism does NOT save or convey any form of grace (means), as erroneously taught by:
> 
> The Roman Catholic Church
> The Episcopal Church
> The Methodist Church
> The Lutheran Church
> and several churches of the Reformed tradition
> Water baptism is NOT part of the Gospel revealed to the Church by the Apostle Paul (1 Cor. 1:17) as erroneously taught by:
> 
> The Church of Christ - Campbellite
> The Disciples of Christ - Campbellite
> The Christian Church - Campbellite
> and several Baptist and Pentecostal/charismatic churches
> Confusion regarding the topics of water and Spirit baptism is most often due to non-dispensational interpretations of Scripture--in particular the Gospels and the Book of Acts.
> 
> Water baptism, *if practiced at all*, should convey and communicate the reality of our spiritual baptism, (1 Cor. 12:13) into the Body of Christ which was once-for-all formed at Pentecost and recorded in Acts 2.
> 
> http://www.withchrist.org/baptism.htm



Really?  It's optional?


----------



## panfried0419

centerpin fan said:


> Really?  It's optional?



Yes. I believe one can be saved without baptism. I know people who have had a terminal illness, never been baptized, but accepted Christ. I believe they are saved.


----------



## centerpin fan

panfried0419 said:


> I know people who have had a terminal illness, never been baptized, but accepted Christ.



Peter didn't tell the Pentecost crowd to "accept Christ".  He didn't tell them to say a prayer, raise their hand, or walk the aisle.  He told them to repent and be baptized.


----------



## jmharris23

Ronnie T said:


> It isn't about what I believe.
> It's simply about reading what God has recorded for us, and accepting it without question.
> 
> It's about respecting the written word of God enough to never say, "Nay, you don't have to be baptized if you don't want to".
> 
> Nothing in the Bible suggests that baptism is a "work".
> 
> Jesus was baptized, against the advise of John, to 'fulfill all righteousness'.  Yet today Christians teachers tell people you don't have to be baptized!!!!!!!
> 
> Of course we're saved by the blood of Jesus, God's grace; but, Peter said it is in baptism that we are saved.
> How can that be so neatly dismissed?
> 
> Why can't we just do it the way it was done in the 1st century?  Why should it change?  There's no excuse.
> It makes no sense.
> .



I'm not in complete disagreement with you....mostly just wondering what you do with instances such as the theif on the cross? If you've already covered that, I'll dig back through the thread for your answer.


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> Did barryl write that?



If so we've got to "rightly divide" it.


----------



## M80

jmharris23 said:


> I'm not in complete disagreement with you....mostly just wondering what you do with instances such as the theif on the cross? If you've already covered that, I'll dig back through the thread for your answer.



I used to use this same theory brother but really it can't apply here cause salvation wasn't completed yet. It was his faith that took him to paradise, but if you've read through here I hope you see where I stand with this discussion


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> Peter didn't tell the Pentecost crowd to "accept Christ".  He didn't tell them to say a prayer, raise their hand, or walk the aisle.  He told them to repent and be baptized.




Maybe Peter thought they were already believers. Is believing still part of salvation or have we now changed it to repenting and being baptised only?


----------



## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> I used to use this same theory brother but really it can't apply here cause salvation wasn't completed yet. It was his faith that took him to paradise, but if you've read through here I hope you see where I stand with this discussion


The thief had the One thing necessary, Christ. He was plucked from the brink of he11 by the Son of God. Saved as saved can be!


----------



## hobbs27

gemcgrew said:


> The thief had the One thing necessary, Christ. He was plucked from the brink of he11 by the Son of God. Saved as saved can be!



Research paradise. Jesus had yet to ascend to the Father. I think you will find that it was not heaven where Jesus and the thief were going that day, but the same place that Samuel was raised from...the same place that Lazarus went to that the rich man could look across to. They were the captives in which Jesus freed....once the blood was shed.
 That thief had faith so he went with Jesus..the other probably went the way of the rich man.


----------



## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> Research paradise. Jesus had yet to ascend to the Father. I think you will find that it was not heaven where Jesus and the thief were going that day, but the same place that Samuel was raised from...the same place that Lazarus went to that the rich man could look across to. They were the captives in which Jesus freed....once the blood was shed.
> That thief had faith so he went with Jesus..the other probably went the way of the rich man.


I am going to disagree on this conclusion. I do agree however, that the other thief died as he lived.


----------



## Artfuldodger

When Jesus died and his soul went to preach, did they get baptised with water and spirit?


----------



## hobbs27

gemcgrew said:


> I am going to disagree on this conclusion. I do agree however, that the other thief died as he lived.



OK....you can do that..  It would make a good topic for discussion in another thread though.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> When Jesus died and his soul went to preach, did they get baptised with water and spirit?



I say spirit!


----------



## centerpin fan

Ronnie posted this in a previous baptism thread.  It's worth reading.



"BAPTISM"

Spirit Baptism Saves Us, Not Water Baptism!

INTRODUCTION

1. Another objection to the necessity of baptism involves making a distinction between baptism in the Spirit and baptism in water; this view proclaims...
a. "The baptism which saves is a baptism in the Spirit at the point of faith"
b. "Passages like Ro 6:3-7, Ga 3:27, etc., refer to Spirit baptism, not water baptism"

2. Those upholding this view point out...
a. There are many different types of baptisms in the Bible
b. We should not assume that water baptism is always the subject under consideration

3. As expressed by one proponent of this view...
a. "There is a way to distinguish between water baptism and Spirit Baptism in those scriptures which do not specifically tell which type is being discussed."
b. "That way is this: if the passage is talking about being placed into Christ, then it is talking about Spirit Baptism, not Water Baptism, for Spirit Baptism is how we are placed into Christ."
c. "...in Romans 6, for example, it is obvious that the context is being placed into Christ and the passage dwells on the believer'sidentification with Christ, with His death, and with His resurrection. In this passage, the believer is not baptized into WATER, but into the death of Christ." - Baptism and Salvation,
Charles T. Buntin
-- Of course, this argument presumes the very point to be proven

[There are several problems that I have with this effort to explain away the necessity of baptism in water for the remission of sins. To begin with, the Bible teaches...]

I. THERE IS ONE BAPTISM

A. THE BIBLE DOES DESCRIBE MANY BAPTISMS...

1. At the very least there are six...
a. The baptism of Moses (Israel) - 1Co 10:1-2
b. The baptism of John, a baptism in water - Mk 1:4-5
c. The baptism of the Holy Spirit - Mt 3:11; Lk 3:16; Ac 1:5;
2:1-4; 10:44,45; 11:15-16
f. The baptism of fire (judgment) - Mt 3:11; Lk 3:16,17
d. The baptism of suffering (persecution) - Mt 20:20-33; Lk 12:50
e. The baptism of the Great Commission, which was a baptism in
water - Mt 28:19; Mk 16:15-16; Ac 2:38; 8:12-13,35-38;
10:47-48; 22:16

2. Some include two more...
a. The baptism of Noah, metaphorically speaking, which
involved water - 1Pe 3:20
b. The baptism of Jesus, which involved water and the Spirit
- Mt 3:16-17

B. THERE IS NOW JUST ONE BAPTISM...
1. In describing the unity of the Spirit...
a. Paul proclaims there is one baptism - Ep 4:3-7
b. Just as there is only one Lord, one faith, one hope, etc.
2. To which of the six (or eight) baptisms was Paul referring?
a. I believe we can safely rule out all but two
b. The issue boils down to this: Is the one baptism of
Ep 4:5...
1) The baptism of the Holy Spirit?
2) The baptism of the Great Commission?
-- Or might there actually be a connection between these
two, with the end result there being one baptism with
two elements: water and the Spirit?

[Whichever, we cannot have two or more baptisms; there is only one
baptism! Now let me explain why regarding the one baptism...]

II. IT IS THE BAPTISM OF THE GREAT COMMISSION

A. WHY THE BAPTISM OF THE GREAT COMMISSION...?

1. This is the baptism...
a. Commanded by Jesus
1) For people of all nations - Mt 28:19
2) For every person in the world - Mk 16:15-16
b. Commanded by the apostles in response to the gospel
1) As proclaimed to the Jews at Pentecost - Ac 2:38
2) As commanded by Peter to the Gentiles - Ac 10:48
-- Indeed, every example of conversion described in detail in
the book of Acts involves this baptism!

2. If there is only one baptism...
a. It must involve this one, for it is commanded of all who
would come to Christ!
b. Otherwise we must throw it out (as some have done)

B. WHAT ABOUT THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT...?

1. This is a difficult subject, about which the Bible actually
says very little...
a. John promised that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit
- Mt 3:11
b. Jesus promised that He would baptize with the Holy Spirit
- Ac 1:5
c. But the baptism of the Holy Spirit is then explicitly
mentioned in just three places
1) At the conversion of Cornelius - Ac 10:44-45; 11:15-16
2) Which reminded Peter of Pentecost - Ac 11:15-16; 2:1-4

2. This has led to much confusion about what the baptism of the
Spirit is...
a. Some say that it was an event that occurred only twice
1) On the day of Pentecost, and only upon the apostles
- Ac 2
2) At the conversion of Cornelius and his household, the
first Gentiles - Ac 10,11
b. Some say it is an event that occurs at every conversion
1) When a person is saved, they are that moment "baptized"
with the Holy Spirit
2) Occurs to all who become Christians, and no miraculous
manifestations need be present
c. Others say it is an event that occurs after conversion
1) A "second work of grace" that must be sought diligently
2) Many people understand "speaking in tongues" to be a
sign of this "baptism of the Holy Spirit"
3) Some even say that it is necessary to be truly saved

3. I am persuaded the baptism of the Holy Spirit...
a. Refers to the pouring out of the Spirit on the day of
Pentecost - Ac 2:1-21
b. Was a one-time event, but with ramifications lasting
throughout the gospel age
1) In which the Holy Spirit is now available in some way to
all whom God calls through the gospel - 2Th 2:13-14; Titus 3:7
2) For those who receive the Spirit, the Spirit then
empowers whom He wills to the degree He wills - 1Co 12:
4-13
a) For the servants of God used in the revelation and
confirmation of His Word, the Spirit imparted
"spiritual gifts" (this work of the Spirit was
temporary, and ended once God's revelation was
completed)
b) For all of the servants of God, the Spirit serves as
the "instrumental agent" by which God strengthens and
blesses them (this work of the Spirit continues
today, and will until Christ returns)
-- This view presumes that one receives the Spirit at baptism
(see below) - Ac 2:38-39; 1Co 12:13; Titus 3:5-7

4. So while at first there may be have been two baptisms spoken
of by Jesus...
a. The baptism of the Great Commission - Mt 28:19; Mk 16:15-16
b. The baptism of the Spirit - Ac 1:5
...once the Spirit was poured out, only "one baptism" remained,
which was that baptism commanded of people in every nation!

[Having declared the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" a promise that was
fulfilled on the day of Pentecost, let me emphasize concerning the
"baptism of the Great Commission"...]

III. THE BAPTISM OF THE GREAT COMMISSION INVOLVES BOTH WATER AND THE SPIRIT

A. THAT IT INVOLVES WATER...

1. Is evidenced by conversion of the Ethiopian - Ac 8:35-38

2. Is made clearer by the command of Peter - Ac 10:47-48

3. Is alluded to by Paul and Peter in their epistles - Ep 5:26;
1Pe 3:20-21

B. THAT IT INVOLVES THE SPIRIT...

1. Is indicated when Jesus declared that one must be "born again"
- Jn 3:3-5
a. To be born "of water and the Spirit"
b. Not two births, but one birth with two elements (water and
Spirit)

2. Is made clearer when Paul wrote to Titus - Titus 3:5-6
a. God saved us "through the washing of regeneration and
renewing of the Holy Spirit"
b. That washing (a clear allusion to baptism) involved a
regeneration and renewing of the Spirit!

3. Is seen in Paul's remarks to the Corinthians - 1Co 12:13
a. By the Spirit were we baptized into the one body
b. In baptism, the Spirit not only regenerates, but
incorporates us into the body of Christ!

[The baptism of the Great Commission is more than just an immersion in
water. At the moment the penitent believer is lowered into the water,
the Spirit is very much at work in renewing, regenerating, and
incorporating us into the Body of Christ. In other words...]

IV. IT HAS SPIRITUAL SIGNIFICANCE

A. IT INVOLVES A BURIAL INTO THE DEATH OF CHRIST...

1. As Paul explains in Ro 6:3-7
a. Baptism into Christ is a burial into His death
b. In baptism we are crucified with Christ
c. In baptism we thus die to sin, and rise to walk in newness
of life

2. Some contend Paul is teaching what water baptism symbolizes...
a. That it pictures what took place when we were saved before
baptism
b. That it depicts the Spirit baptism which occurred at the
moment of faith
-- But if so, then we have two baptisms, and Paul taught there
was only one!

3. Others say Paul is describing Spirit baptism...
a. That water baptism (i.e., the baptism of the Great
Commission) is not even under consideration
b. That this passage is depicting what happens before water
baptism
-- Again, we would have two baptisms, not one!

4. This passage describes what happens when a person is baptized
into Christ...
a. Since there is only one baptism, it must be referring to
that baptism
b. Since the one baptism is the baptism of the Great
Commission, Paul is describing the spiritual significance
of what takes place when one is baptized in water!

B. THERE ARE OTHER THINGS OF SPIRITUAL SIGNIFICANCE...

1. The one baptism (of the Great Commission) involves...
a. A cutting away of sin - Col 2:11-13
b. A putting on of Christ - Ga 3:27

2. Again, some contend these passages are describing...
a. "Spirit baptism" at the point of faith
b. Not the baptism of the Great Commission
-- But this makes two baptisms, when there is only one!

3. Since the baptism of the Great Commission involves both water
and the Spirit...
a. There is no reason God (i.e., the Spirit) could not be at
work when a person is immersed in water
b. God has chosen to use baptism in water to be the point in
time in which His Spirit does His work of regeneration and
renewal! - Titus 3:5; Ac 22:16

CONCLUSION

1. Some people want to "have their cake and eat it too"...
a. They want to say passages like Ro 6:3-7; Ga 3:27; Col 2:11-13 are
describing "Spirit baptism", not "water baptism"
b. But then appeal to these passages when they seek to describe
"water baptism" as symbolic of "Spirit baptism" which has already
occurred

2. Note well: If these passages are not discussing "water baptism"
(i.e., the baptism of the Great Commission)...
a. We have no Scripture that tells us what is the true significance
and meaning of the baptism commanded by Christ and His apostles!
b. The Lord has commanded water baptism, with no explanation as to
what it means!
-- Any explanation as to the meaning and purpose of the baptism of
the Great Commission is pure conjecture and without any
scriptural basis!

3. The "unity of the Spirit" proclaims there is only one baptism...
a. Not two baptisms, one of the Spirit at the time of salvation, and
one later for some unexplained reason
b. But one baptism, involving both water and the Spirit, in response
to the preaching of Christ and His apostles

4. This one baptism...
a. Is a rebirth involving both water and the Spirit - Jn 3:5
b. Is for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit
- Ac 2:38; 22:16
c. Is a baptism in water - Ac 8:35-38; 10:47-48
d. Involves the Spirit incorporating us into the body of Christ
- 1Co 12:13
e. Is a burial into the death of Christ in which we are crucified
with Him - Ro 6:3-7
f. Clothes us with Christ - Ga 3:27
e. Is a spiritual circumcision, in which our sins are cut away
- Col 2:11-13
f. Is a washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, who
was poured out as promised by Jesus - Titus 3:5-7; Ac 1:5; 2:1-4
g. Saves us, not through some physical cleansing, but by the
resurrection of Jesus! - 1Pe 3:21

Should we be surprised that the Great Commission of our Lord contains a
great command having great significance?

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing
them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy
Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded
you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Amen. (Mt 28:19-20)

And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel
to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved;
but he who does not believe will be condemned." (Mk 16:15-16)

'And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash
away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.' (Ac 22:16) 
__________________
Acts 2:38Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized ... for the forgiveness of your sins..
1 John 1:7 but if we walk in the Light.. the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.


----------



## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> Belief is required. It is by our faith, and His grace that we are saved, so it is before...let me be clear according to scripture. There is receiving the Holy Spirit and then there is receiving the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Two different things, I believe one can receive the the Holy Spirit (indwelling) but not the gifts as did the Samaratins, until they had hands laid upon them.
> 
> From my personal experience the order was such.
> 1) Faith in that Jesus Christ hung on the cross if not for anyone elses sins but mine..it was my sin that nailed Him there.
> 2) A drawing to unite with Christ through the Holy Spirit.
> 3) Repentance
> 4) Acceptance by Christ
> 5) Regeneration, made into a new creature. I was a new person, and when I lifted my eyes from prayer those standing around me looked new too. The love God had just placed in my heart felt as if there was no room to contain it.



Three things.  Where do you find proof of these things in Acts 2?  Peter claimed the Holy Spirit would not be received until there was repentance and baptism... where do we find steps 1-5?  Even with this explanation, you've still got to deal with Peter's direct statement about when "forgiveness of sins" occurs.  Sequentially in Acts 2:38-39, you've still got holes in your argument.

Two... In Acts 8:12, we see the Samaritans believed and were baptized.  Yet, verse 16 clearly says the Holy Spirit had not fallen on any of them - they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.  The word "fallen" there is often used in the NT to refer to "fear falling on a person".  Thus, it's not referring to what happens outside, but inside a person' heart (unless fear falling on someone means it was an outward phenomenon).  Thus, it's not unbiblical to say in verse 16 "they did not have the Holy Spirit" - whether indwelling or gifts.

Three... and this is huge today.  You're basing a lot of your beliefs on your internal "feelings".  NT Scripture never states that we can know we've been saved because of a feeling in our heart... why is that?  Likely because the OT passages such as Proverbs 16:25 ( there is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is death) and Proverbs 28:26 (whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool).  When NT writers refer back to people's conversion, they referenced something they participated in.


----------



## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe Peter thought they were already believers. Is believing still part of salvation or have we now changed it to repenting and being baptised only?



Art... Peter DIDN'T make a mistake - he was an inspired apostle who was being directed by the Holy Spirit ( you surely don't suggest the Spirit was wrong do you).  In response to belief, what does verses 36-37 tell you?


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> Peter didn't tell the Pentecost crowd to "accept Christ".  He didn't tell them to say a prayer, raise their hand, or walk the aisle.  He told them to repent and be baptized.


21) "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved"

37) "Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

Now, post regeneration....

38) "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

41) "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."


----------



## panfried0419

So centerpin what I have gathered is that you can interpret the Bible 100% correctly as the original authors did. Once again answer the question. Dont post scripture or babble nonsense centerpin. Answer this simple question...can you be saved without being baptized?


----------



## Artfuldodger

1 Peter 3
…19in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,…

When Jesus died and his soul preached to these eight spirits, were they baptized with water?


----------



## centerpin fan

panfried0419 said:


> So centerpin what I have gathered is that you can interpret the Bible 100% correctly as the original authors did.



You should really leave the sarcasm to the professionals.




panfried0419 said:


> Once again answer the question.



When did you ask before?




panfried0419 said:


> Dont post scripture ...



What am I supposed to use?  The Denny's menu?




panfried0419 said:


> Answer this simple question...can you be saved without being baptized?



Not to my knowledge.


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> 21) "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved"
> 
> 37) "Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
> 
> Now, post regeneration....
> 
> 38) "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
> 
> 41) "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."



That's your opinion.


----------



## centerpin fan

panfried0419 said:


> So centerpin what I have gathered is that you can interpret the Bible 100% correctly as the original authors did.



I apologize in advance for the use of scripture, but here goes:

" ... knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation" - 2 Peter 1:20

My convictions on baptism are not my private interpretation.  The majority of Christians alive today believe in the necessity of baptism.  I would also argue that the majority of Christians who have ever lived held to the necessity of baptism.


----------



## panfried0419

Well I guess answering in laymens terms is out of your realm. For you to say those that aren't baptized but accept Christ aren't saved is pretty selfish so-to-speak. Luckily the Bible that have read and the theology I have studied and the many denominations that I grew up in believe that Accepting the fact that Christ saves us from our known sinful ways and that we accept him as our savior and spiritual leader.


----------



## centerpin fan

panfried0419 said:


> Well I guess answering in laymens terms is out of your realm.



I really don't know what you're looking for or why you feel the need for sarcasm.  I gave you a plain, honest answer.




panfried0419 said:


> For you to say those that aren't baptized but accept Christ aren't saved is pretty selfish so-to-speak.



... yet you would say that those who have not "accepted Christ" aren't saved.  At least what I'm saying is based on the numerous references to baptism in the NT.  "Accepting Christ", making a "decision for Christ", praying Jesus into your heart, etc. are all absent from the NT.


----------



## centerpin fan

panfried0419 said:


> For you to say those that aren't baptized but accept Christ aren't saved is pretty selfish so-to-speak.



Just to clarify, I'm not saying anybody is not saved.  I'm not the judge.  All I'm saying is that, as I read scripture and as many before me have read it, baptism is essential.


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> That's your opinion.


Well, then why didn't everybody present , gladly receive his word?

If, as you are of opinion, baptism is necessary for salvation, why did Peter not mention it in Acts 3:19?


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> Well, then why didn't everybody present , gladly receive his word?



Yep, and they repented and got baptized.




gemcgrew said:


> If, as you are of opinion, baptism is necessary for salvation, why did Peter not mention it in Acts 3:19?



I dunno, but he did mention it in Acts 2, Acts 10, and 1 Peter 3.  It's not like baptism is downplayed in the NT.  See post 316 for more examples.


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> I dunno, but he did mention it in Acts 2, Acts 10, and 1 Peter 3.  It's not like baptism is downplayed in the NT.  See post 316 for more examples.


Of course it is not downplayed. I believe it is an essential act of obedience, but it is not salvation.


----------



## M80

My friend in Missouri called me this mornings me told me some news I didn't want to hear. His friend Raymond is 33 years old, has a 6,5, and 4 year kids. We have been praying for him for nearly a year cause he has leukemia. He said that he probably won't make it through the night. He has been on bed rest for a while. He did tell me this morning that 2 weeks ago he got saved. He hasn't got baptized but I believe with all my heart I will meet him in heaven.


----------



## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> My friend in Missouri called me this mornings me told me some news I didn't want to hear. His friend Raymond is 33 years old, has a 6,5, and 4 year kids. We have been praying for him for nearly a year cause he has leukemia. He said that he probably won't make it through the night. He has been on bed rest for a while. He did tell me this morning that 2 weeks ago he got saved. He hasn't got baptized but I believe with all my heart I will meet him in heaven.


And you should. Baptism is a picture of salvation, but baptism is not salvation.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> Well, then why didn't everybody present , gladly receive his word?
> 
> If, as you are of opinion, baptism is necessary for salvation, why did Peter not mention it in Acts 3:19?




Peter was kinda interrupted when the Roman soldiers show up (acts 4).

There's no record of any of the Christians at the church in Rome ever being offered baptism, or their being baptized........... Until Paul acknowledges that they all have in Romans 6.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> And you should. Baptism is a picture of salvation, but baptism is not salvation.



I don't believe I've seen that bit of info in Jesus' or His apostles writings.
My brother would suggest I take a look at 2 Opinions 3:45.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Peter was kinda interrupted when the Roman soldiers show up (acts 4).


You must be double jointed to make that kind of reach.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> You must be double jointed to make that kind of reach.



No, I'm definitely not double jointed.  Kinda tight-jointed.

Are you suggesting that believers were told to be baptized in Acts 2 but we know that those in Acts 4 were not?
.


----------



## hobbs27

Bama4me said:


> Three things.  Where do you find proof of these things in Acts 2?  Peter claimed the Holy Spirit would not be received until there was repentance and baptism... where do we find steps 1-5?  Even with this explanation, you've still got to deal with Peter's direct statement about when "forgiveness of sins" occurs.  Sequentially in Acts 2:38-39, you've still got holes in your argument.
> 
> Two... In Acts 8:12, we see the Samaritans believed and were baptized.  Yet, verse 16 clearly says the Holy Spirit had not fallen on any of them - they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.  The word "fallen" there is often used in the NT to refer to "fear falling on a person".  Thus, it's not referring to what happens outside, but inside a person' heart (unless fear falling on someone means it was an outward phenomenon).  Thus, it's not unbiblical to say in verse 16 "they did not have the Holy Spirit" - whether indwelling or gifts.
> 
> Three... and this is huge today.  You're basing a lot of your beliefs on your internal "feelings".  NT Scripture never states that we can know we've been saved because of a feeling in our heart... why is that?  Likely because the OT passages such as Proverbs 16:25 ( there is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is death) and Proverbs 28:26 (whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool).  When NT writers refer back to people's conversion, they referenced something they participated in.



1.What God did with me when He saved me was exactly what I needed from Him. I dont question His salvation of me with scripture. Some people may get salvation in a baptism pool, I didn't.

2. I agree thats the way it was with the samaritans in Acts 8

3. Im sorry you have never felt God. Proverbs 28:26 is beautiful...Im glad I never trusted in my own mind, and followed my heart and the drawing of the Holy Spirit. Else I may have fallen for some " Quote this prayer and raise your hand salvation" or maybe I would have signed a card and been counseled..or maybe I would have just got someone to dunk me in water and told me thats all there is to it...No..the NT and present kingdom is not one of laws and works, but of grace and following the HS that is here as our comforter.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Are you suggesting that believers were told to be baptized in Acts 2 but we know that those in Acts 4 were not?
> .


I never mentioned Acts 4. That was you in trying to cover 3:19.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> I don't believe I've seen that bit of info in Jesus' or His apostles writings.


That is because it is hidden from the legalistic work-mongers.


----------



## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> 1 Peter 3
> …19in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,…
> When Jesus died and his soul preached to these eight spirits, were they baptized with water?



Art... the eight souls were Noah and his family.  That is a reference back to the flood... when eight people were saved "through water".  When Jesus "made proclamation" to the spirits in prison, that's a reference to when He was in Paradise (Hadean realm) between His death and His resurrection.  The phrase "made proclamation" simply means "to proclaim a message"... there's no evident that opportunities for salvation was offered.  If people who were already dead had a second opportunity to be saved, that would contradict a LOT of Scripture.


----------



## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> 1.What God did with me when He saved me was exactly what I needed from Him. I dont question His salvation of me with scripture. Some people may get salvation in a baptism pool, I didn't.
> 
> 2. I agree thats the way it was with the samaritans in Acts 8
> 
> 3. Im sorry you have never felt God. Proverbs 28:26 is beautiful...Im glad I never trusted in my own mind, and followed my heart and the drawing of the Holy Spirit. Else I may have fallen for some " Quote this prayer and raise your hand salvation" or maybe I would have signed a card and been counseled..or maybe I would have just got someone to dunk me in water and told me thats all there is to it...No..the NT and present kingdom is not one of laws and works, but of grace and following the HS that is here as our comforter.



Then what you're really saying here is that people can be saved in a variety of ways.  When you say that the NT and present kingdom is not one of "law and works", then you are contradicting yourself because you claimed earlier that faith of an individual must be expressed in order to be saved.  "Faith" is just as much of a "work" as baptism... in fact, ANYTHING a person has to do in the process of being saved is a "work".

As to "feeling God", where do you find that expounded on in the New Testament?  I hear a whole lot about that, but have yet to run across that idea.  In fact, since we're in Acts 2 here, where do you find "feeling God" there?  Or... maybe over in Acts 8... or Acts 10?  As much as people talk about it today as proof of their salvation, surely the Holy Spirit guided men to write about that pretty extensively.


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> That is because it is hidden from the legalistic work-mongers.



Glad to see you bring your sarcastic barbs posting style to the thread... had been missing it.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Bama4me said:


> Art... the eight souls were Noah and his family.  That is a reference back to the flood... when eight people were saved "through water".  When Jesus "made proclamation" to the spirits in prison, that's a reference to when He was in Paradise (Hadean realm) between His death and His resurrection.  The phrase "made proclamation" simply means "to proclaim a message"... there's no evident that opportunities for salvation was offered.  If people who were already dead had a second opportunity to be saved, that would contradict a LOT of Scripture.



Their "through water" saving was in a dry boat. Maybe Jesus went back to baptize them.


----------



## Artfuldodger

There is only one Gospel and it is the same before and after Jesus' death. The thief on the cross was saved under the Old Covenant but  died under the New Covenant as he died after Jesus died. He was never baptized. How many Christians died shortly after or days after Jesus died that were never baptized?
It didn't matter because they were saved under the gospel.

Rom. 10:9 “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”


----------



## hobbs27

Bama4me said:


> Then what you're really saying here is that people can be saved in a variety of ways.  .



Yes, and No. Everyones salvation is through the shed blood of Christ. It is Faith plus His grace. With that said it can happen many different places and many different ways.

Faith by the way is not a work. If I had to work to have faith then it would not be faith!


----------



## jmharris23

mwilliams80 said:


> My friend in Missouri called me this mornings me told me some news I didn't want to hear. His friend Raymond is 33 years old, has a 6,5, and 4 year kids. We have been praying for him for nearly a year cause he has leukemia. He said that he probably won't make it through the night. He has been on bed rest for a while. He did tell me this morning that 2 weeks ago he got saved. He hasn't got baptized but I believe with all my heart I will meet him in heaven.





gemcgrew said:


> And you should. Baptism is a picture of salvation, but baptism is not salvation.





Ronnie T said:


> I don't believe I've seen that bit of info in Jesus' or His apostles writings.
> My brother would suggest I take a look at 2 Opinions 3:45.




So Ronnie, are you saying this fellow with leukemia will not make it to heaven based on the fact that he professed faith in Chist but was not baptized before death?


----------



## hobbs27

Bama4me said:


> Art... the eight souls were Noah and his family.  That is a reference back to the flood... when eight people were saved "through water".  When Jesus "made proclamation" to the spirits in prison, that's a reference to when He was in Paradise (Hadean realm) between His death and His resurrection.  The phrase "made proclamation" simply means "to proclaim a message"...


 Im with you 98% here excluding the saved "through water"but..






Bama4me said:


> there's no evident that opportunities for salvation was offered.  If people who were already dead had a second opportunity to be saved, that would contradict a LOT of Scripture.



You lost me here. People died in the faith of a coming redeemer. There was no salvation before the shed blood, if there was then I would say that contradicts a LOT of scripture. The proclamation Jesus made in paradise would be the Gospel...once heard they could accept the blood since God is no respector of persons.


----------



## panfried0419

It's not sarcasm centerpin. Your definition of sarcasm is worse than your interpretation of the Christian faith. Your way of thinking is why some people turn from the Christian faith.


----------



## panfried0419

centerpin fan said:


> Just to clarify, I'm not saying anybody is not saved.  I'm not the judge.  All I'm saying is that, as I read scripture and as many before me have read it, baptism is essential.



Yes you did. In your cryptic answers.


----------



## centerpin fan

panfried0419 said:


> It's not sarcasm centerpin.



Sure it is.




panfried0419 said:


> Your definition of sarcasm is worse than your interpretation of the Christian faith.



It's not "my" interpretation of the faith.  I didn't dream it up one day.  It's been around for 2,000 years.




panfried0419 said:


> Your way of thinking is why some people turn from the Christian faith.



The same can be said of your way.


----------



## centerpin fan

panfried0419 said:


> Yes you did. In your cryptic answers.



First, there was nothing cryptic in my answers.  Second, as I said before, you have no problem saying that someone who has not "accepted Christ" is not saved.  Why is it OK for you but not for me?  

I will expand on this in another post.


----------



## Ronnie T

jmharris23 said:


> So Ronnie, are you saying this fellow with leukemia will not make it to heaven based on the fact that he professed faith in Chist but was not baptized before death?



Out of my zone of responsibility to decide things like that.

But the facts remain.

(1) Jesus said 'Go preach the Gospel and those who believe and are baptized will be saved'.
(2) Paul told Christians baptism is New Testament circumcision....... the removal of sins.
(3) Paul, at his conversion, was to 'arise and be baptized washing away your sins.
(4) Peter, in his letter, said 'it is baptism that does not save you'.

*Those are words that I must take seriously as I teach and serve my Lord.  I don't know why Christ added/included baptism to our need for His grace, mercy and forgiveness.  Beats me.  But it's there, and I'll never ignore or neglect to teach baptism, just as I share God's eternal grace.  
It comes with the package.  That's the way Philip presented it to the Ethiopian.

*If I had been involved in sharing the Gospel with the young man above I'd be asking myself some questions this morning.  Could I have helped he fulfill and complete the rite of baptism?  Could I have made the necessary arrangements so that he could have experienced the baptism that Jesus and all the early Christians experienced, and so fulfill Christ's solemn commandment.


----------



## BT Charlie

My heart is broken.  McWilliams' dying friend was nothing more than a prop for human debate replete with emoticons:  

Christ alone v. Must add water.

May this man have found more love, compassion and other salt in his few hours of remaining light. May it be so for all Forumites.

Proposed new thread topic: What would an "Apostles' Verified Joint Letter to Forumites Who Quarreled Over Salvation" contain?


----------



## centerpin fan

jmharris23 said:


> So Ronnie, are you saying this fellow with leukemia will not make it to heaven based on the fact that he professed faith in Chist but was not baptized before death?



I'll just expand on Ronnie's answer.

Based on our religious backgrounds, we all have a standard for when salvation occurs.  We must:

1) Accept Christ,
2) Profess Christ,
3) Make a decision for Christ, 
4) Be a part of the elect or
5) Repent and be baptized.

I'm sure there are others, but I just listed the "top 5" that came to mind.

As I tried to explain to panfried0419, nobody has a problem saying someone is not saved if they have not done #1-4.  (See post 146, for example.)  Christian TV tells people 24/7 that they will go to he11 if they don't do #1-4.  However, saying someone is not saved because they have not obeyed #5 is deemed judgmental or "selfish".

As has been noted before, salvation occurs when we are united to Christ.  I believe that happens at baptism, in accordance with Romans 6:1-5.

As for the guy with leukemia, the decision is God's.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> *If I had been involved in sharing the Gospel with the young man above I'd be asking myself some questions this morning.  Could I have helped he fulfill and complete the rite of baptism?  Could I have made the necessary arrangements so that he could have experienced the baptism that Jesus and all the early Christians experienced, and so fulfill Christ's solemn commandment.


Spiritual thievery. 

The Gospel never changed! 

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. (Romans 4:1-8)

"Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." (Galatians 3:6-14)


----------



## centerpin fan

BT Charlie said:


> McWilliams' dying friend was nothing more than a prop for human debate ...



Thanks to mwilliams80.




BT Charlie said:


> Proposed new thread topic: What would an "Apostles' Verified Joint Letter to Forumites Who Quarreled Over Salvation" contain?



Christians have been debating points of the faith for 2,000 years.


----------



## M80

BT Charlie said:


> My heart is broken.  McWilliams' dying friend was nothing more than a prop for human debate replete with emoticons:
> 
> Christ alone v. Must add water.
> 
> May this man have found more love, compassion and other salt in his few hours of remaining light. May it be so for all Forumites.
> 
> Proposed new thread topic: What would an "Apostles' Verified Joint Letter to Forumites Who Quarreled Over Salvation" contain?





centerpin fan said:


> Thanks to mwilliams80.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Christians have been debating points of the faith for 2,000 years.



I beg to differ with y'all. I wouldn't do that. I'm awaiting a call from my friend Allen Bradley today. Raymond is a real man and this was not for emotional feelings. A real example of salvation. I appreciate how much some of y'all think of me that I would throw some emotional guilt trip in here. We ought to be praising The Lord for our health and ability to go everyday.


----------



## BT Charlie

Christ followers do not have to agree on every point.  And they should not debate disputable matters, lest they injure another's walk.

I have to ask...how many really smart brothers does it take for the body to become completely ineffective? 

Quarreling is sin and not even secular debate. It is a food fight at the trunk of the Tree of Knowledge of Right and Wrong.

For Peter's sake, if he is your favorite, let God be God. Be content in your own salvation and take exceeding care not to be the cause of others' sin or stumbling.

Folks who come here have different degrees of faith maturity. Discussions should reflect that, rather than promote disunity and hurt feelings. My plea: If you must shout, make clear you are doing it from a repentant posture, face down.

You can tell me to shut my pie hole. I will continue to love
 you despite such, and my inevitable sin response will be lifted upon my own cross, where the rest of rancid me is trying to quietly die away.  (This forum is good exercise for that there).  But being sarcastic or down right blunt and impolite others is clearly causing them to stumble.

Just cause Christians have been sinning for 2,000 years in this way is no reason for us to do so now.


----------



## centerpin fan

BT Charlie said:


> Christ followers do not have to agree on every point.  And they should not debate disputable matters, lest they injure another's walk.



I just disagree.  Debate in and of itself is not sin.

Acts 18:

27 When Apollos wanted to go to Achaia, the brothers and sisters encouraged him and wrote to the disciples there to welcome him. When he arrived, he was a great help to those who by grace had believed. 28 For he vigorously refuted his Jewish opponents in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Messiah.


----------



## BT Charlie

Post 373:

MWilliams, it is I who need to beg here ... for your forgiveness.  For my point was not your reference to your friend and his salvation (of which I am likewise confident). But rather in reference to replies that followed.  I see how my comment can be construed as condemning your illustration, and, again, I humbly apologize. I perceived your reference to his waterless salvation as piercingly appropriate and I pray for you, your friends ad others who hear this witness. Glory be to the Father. In Christ.


----------



## BT Charlie

CP, if you need to vigorously refute Jewish opponents, I will be with you.  Try looking up debating disputable matters and the consequences of one's flesh opinion hurting another of less faith. You may change your opinion.  

ps I have always liked your Avatar avatar.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> Spiritual thievery.
> 
> The Gospel never changed!
> 
> "What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. (Romans 4:1-8)
> 
> "Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." (Galatians 3:6-14)



Amen.  The law is gone.
But today we're discussion the Gospel of Christ, and all the elements that Christ Himself personally placed within it.
Beyond that, there is no debate.  Agree?
.


----------



## centerpin fan

BT Charlie said:


> CP, if you need to vigorously refute Jewish opponents, I will be with you.



I didn't start this thread or any of the other baptism threads.  I very rarely start _any_ thread.




BT Charlie said:


> Try looking up debating disputable matters and the consequences of one's flesh opinion hurting another of less faith. You may change your opinion.



Debates can be very useful.  In Acts 15, they debated what should be taught to Gentile converts.  Also, if it weren't for one very important debate in 325 AD, we'd all be Jehovah's Witnesses.




BT Charlie said:


> ps I have always liked your Avatar avatar.


----------



## centerpin fan

BT Charlie said:


> CP, if you need to vigorously refute Jewish opponents, I will be with you.  Try looking up debating disputable matters and the consequences of one's flesh opinion hurting another of less faith. You may change your opinion.



You would be attending Mass this weekend if it weren't for a little debate known as the Reformation.


----------



## Ronnie T

BT Charlie said:


> Christ followers do not have to agree on every point.  And they should not debate disputable matters, lest they injure another's walk.
> 
> I have to ask...how many really smart brothers does it take for the body to become completely ineffective?
> 
> Quarreling is sin and not even secular debate. It is a food fight at the trunk of the Tree of Knowledge of Right and Wrong.
> 
> For Peter's sake, if he is your favorite, let God be God. Be content in your own salvation and take exceeding care not to be the cause of others' sin or stumbling.
> 
> Folks who come here have different degrees of faith maturity. Discussions should reflect that, rather than promote disunity and hurt feelings. My plea: If you must shout, make clear you are doing it from a repentant posture, face down.
> 
> You can tell me to shut my pie hole. I will continue to love
> you despite such, and my inevitable sin response will be lifted upon my own cross, where the rest of rancid me is trying to quietly die away.  (This forum is good exercise for that there).  But being sarcastic or down right blunt and impolite others is clearly causing them to stumble.
> 
> Just cause Christians have been sinning for 2,000 years in this way is no reason for us to do so now.



Stepping outside this forum, I wholly agree with you.  But within the walls of this forum and this subject, there are things that should be discussed.

A few days ago, a fellow minister made the following comment in regard to a posed question.  
The question:  "What would you have said to Peter if you had been in the crowd in Acts 2 Jerusalem when Peter commanded that they be baptized?"

Here's that person's answer:  "I would tell him Paul said to the Romans for with the heart man believeth unto salvation and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. I would tell him that Jesus told us to believe in him. Jesus said you believe in god, believe also in me. I would tell Peter that while John was baptizing our lord John said " behold the lamb of god that takes away sins". I would also say that brother Paul said through the inspiration of god that whosever believeth in thy heart, thou shall be saved."

So, in this forum, this is a discussion worth having.


----------



## barryl

For the umpteenth time, Acts 2 is Baptism of Repentance. {Quit trying to make this fit between Romans- Philemons}Repentance- is turning from or a change of mind about a thing under O.T. order of Law and Sacrifices. The people,{House of Isreal}{National repentance} confessed their sin, offered a sacrifice, and then often returned to repeat the sin and sacrifice. This went on for yrs. and yrs. in the OT. Isrealites or the proselytes to Judiasm had to come back to get their consciences repeatedly{over& over} cleared of the same thing. Hebrews 10 You boys that think or believe that water baptism is essential for salvation better wake up, if you have not believed {1 Cor. 15:1-4}on the Sinless Blood one time Sacrifice{Propitiation} of the Lord Jesus Christ, you might want to get fitted for a fire suit. The ole book of Acts has broke{stumbling block} a many a neck. Here's the cure, believe on the death, burial and resurrection, the "one time" sinless sacrifice of Jesus Christ. You boys that run to GOOGLE for mans opinion, try this,"Truth", John 17:17 KJV AV. M80, sorry to hear about your friend.


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> You boys that run to GOOGLE for mans opinion ...



What do you think dispensationalism is?


----------



## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> For the umpteenth time, Acts 2 is Baptism of Repentance. {Quit trying to make this fit between Romans- Philemons}Repentance- is turning from or a change of mind about a thing under O.T. order of Law and Sacrifices. The people,{House of Isreal}{National repentance} confessed their sin, offered a sacrifice, and then often returned to repeat the sin and sacrifice. This went on for yrs. and yrs. in the OT. Isrealites or the proselytes to Judiasm had to come back to get their consciences repeatedly{over& over} cleared of the same thing. Hebrews 10 You boys that think or believe that water baptism is essential for salvation better wake up, if you have not believed {1 Cor. 15:1-4}on the Sinless Blood one time Sacrifice{Propitiation} of the Lord Jesus Christ, you might want to get fitted for a fire suit. The ole book of Acts has broke{stumbling block} a many a neck. Here's the cure, believe on the death, burial and resurrection, the "one time" sinless sacrifice of Jesus Christ. You boys that run to GOOGLE for mans opinion, try this,"Truth", John 17:17 KJV AV. M80, sorry to hear about your friend.



Totally bogus information that is disputed by virtually every source.

The Roman Christians were baptized.
Paul baptized while he was teaching Gentiles.
On and on.
.


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> You boys that think or believe that water baptism is essential for salvation better wake up, if you have not believed {1 Cor. 15:1-4}on the Sinless Blood one time Sacrifice{Propitiation} of the Lord Jesus Christ, you might want to get fitted for a fire suit.



Not me!  I grew up believing in OSAS, so I'm ten feet tall and bulletproof (spiritually speaking.)  I can believe whatever I want.


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> What do you think dispensationalism is?


----------



## Ronnie T

centerpin fan said:


> Not me!  I grew up believing in OSAS, so I'm ten feet tall and bulletproof (spiritually speaking.)  I can believe whatever I want.



I grew up believing salvation depended on whether I had committed a sin today or not.

The Lord delivered me from that prison of agony.


----------



## M80

BT Charlie said:


> Post 373:
> 
> MWilliams, it is I who need to beg here ... for your forgiveness.  For my point was not your reference to your friend and his salvation (of which I am likewise confident). But rather in reference to replies that followed.  I see how my comment can be construed as condemning your illustration, and, again, I humbly apologize. I perceived your reference to his waterless salvation as piercingly appropriate and I pray for you, your friends ad others who hear this witness. Glory be to the Father. In Christ.





Ronnie T said:


> Stepping outside this forum, I wholly agree with you.  But within the walls of this forum and this subject, there are things that should be discussed.
> 
> A few days ago, a fellow minister made the following comment in regard to a posed question.
> The question:  "What would you have said to Peter if you had been in the crowd in Acts 2 Jerusalem when Peter commanded that they be baptized?"
> 
> Here's that person's answer:  "I would tell him Paul said to the Romans for with the heart man believeth unto salvation and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. I would tell him that Jesus told us to believe in him. Jesus said you believe in god, believe also in me. I would tell Peter that while John was baptizing our lord John said " behold the lamb of god that takes away sins". I would also say that brother Paul said through the inspiration of god that whosever believeth in thy heart, thou shall be saved."
> 
> So, in this forum, this is a discussion worth having.



No problem btcharlie. I just didn't want folks to think I was using a emotional story for comparison with baptism. 


I live how I keep getting singled out here about a minister being wrong. I've been wrong many times but I don't believe I'm wrong in this discussion. Just to let you know I worry about the way you believe on this subject and try to enlighten you the way your trying to enlighten me

Oh yea and I misquoted on what Paul said to the Romans. It's "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


----------



## Israel

Luk 16:1  And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods. 
Luk 16:2  And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward. 
Luk 16:3  Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed. 
Luk 16:4  I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses. 
Luk 16:5  So he called every one of his lord's debtors unto him, and said unto the first, How much owest thou unto my lord? 
Luk 16:6  And he said, An hundred measures of oil. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and sit down quickly, and write fifty. 
Luk 16:7  Then said he to another, And how much owest thou? And he said, An hundred measures of wheat. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and write fourscore. 
Luk 16:8  And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light. 


It's a lock.


----------



## Ronnie T

I'll be blessed tomorrow morning to present a lesson from Hebrews 11 concerning faith.
In the entire lesson, including the invitation, I'll not mention baptism.  Not purposely exclude it, but because it won't enter into the subject matter.

But here, in this discussion, our discussion seems to have again led us to baptism.  I didn't do it, cause I know how it always ends.
My biggest concern with baptism is a modern day lack of respect for it.  More time is spent minimizing it than proclaiming and explaining it.

In my comment #381 above I mentioned no names.  This is not personal.  I have great regard for anyone who's willing to give themselves to the work of the Lord.  Especially in a small church, like mine.  It's a thankless job, but a satisfying work.

One of the things I've done in ministry is given up most opinions.  I'll let others have opinions.
My mandate is God's word.
Nothing is 'true' because I feel it (and I do feel it very often).  It's true if it's God's word.  All of it.  That's just me.
.


----------



## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> I just didn't want folks to think I was using a emotional story for comparison with baptism.


It never even crossed my mind.


----------



## jmharris23

Ronnie T said:


> Out of my zone of responsibility to decide things like that.
> 
> But the facts remain.
> 
> (1) Jesus said 'Go preach the Gospel and those who believe and are baptized will be saved'.
> (2) Paul told Christians baptism is New Testament circumcision....... the removal of sins.
> (3) Paul, at his conversion, was to 'arise and be baptized washing away your sins.
> (4) Peter, in his letter, said 'it is baptism that does not save you'.
> 
> *Those are words that I must take seriously as I teach and serve my Lord.  I don't know why Christ added/included baptism to our need for His grace, mercy and forgiveness.  Beats me.  But it's there, and I'll never ignore or neglect to teach baptism, just as I share God's eternal grace.
> It comes with the package.  That's the way Philip presented it to the Ethiopian.
> 
> *If I had been involved in sharing the Gospel with the young man above I'd be asking myself some questions this morning.  Could I have helped he fulfill and complete the rite of baptism?  Could I have made the necessary arrangements so that he could have experienced the baptism that Jesus and all the early Christians experienced, and so fulfill Christ's solemn commandment.





centerpin fan said:


> I'll just expand on Ronnie's answer.
> 
> Based on our religious backgrounds, we all have a standard for when salvation occurs.  We must:
> 
> 1) Accept Christ,
> 2) Profess Christ,
> 3) Make a decision for Christ,
> 4) Be a part of the elect or
> 5) Repent and be baptized.
> 
> I'm sure there are others, but I just listed the "top 5" that came to mind.
> 
> As I tried to explain to panfried0419, nobody has a problem saying someone is not saved if they have not done #1-4.  (See post 146, for example.)  Christian TV tells people 24/7 that they will go to he11 if they don't do #1-4.  However, saying someone is not saved because they have not obeyed #5 is deemed judgmental or "selfish".
> 
> As has been noted before, salvation occurs when we are united to Christ.  I believe that happens at baptism, in accordance with Romans 6:1-5.
> 
> As for the guy with leukemia, the decision is God's.




I agree that baptism is important. I ask that everyone who professes faith in my church or wants to join in membership be baptized. 

I just can't agree that someone's salvation hinge on it. 

For those of you that seem to, even though you don't seem to want to make those proclamations,i.e., the man with leukemia, what do you do with the Methodist tradition of sprinkling? Are they not saved according to your stance?


And as far as the decision being God's.....I would say that's always the case regarding the salvation of any person.


----------



## jmharris23

I guess the biggest problem I am having here is that those who believe that baptism is necessary for salvation don't seem to want to go far enough to say that without baptism a person is bound for h e l l. When pressed on it the answer has been ,"That's not my decision to make." 

I don't see how that can be. If you are convinced that baptism is a requirement of salvation it should be easy enough to say whether or not a person is saved. 

Baptized = saved / Not Baptized = not saved

Either it is required or it is not. I don't see how it can be both ways?


----------



## gemcgrew

Some believe that they are saved through their obedience. I see obedience as the fruit of, not cause of, the new birth.

They claim to be saved through the physical act of baptism, but deny that it is a work.


----------



## centerpin fan

jmharris23 said:


> I guess the biggest problem I am having here is that those who believe that baptism is necessary for salvation don't seem to want to go far enough to say that without baptism a person is bound for h e l l.



I thought I did say that.  Panfried obviously thought I did. 

I did say I am not the judge ... because I'm not.

Just to be clear, I agree completely with this:



jmharris23 said:


> Baptized = saved / Not Baptized = not saved



If you have not been buried with Christ in baptism, you are not in union with Christ.


----------



## hummerpoo

mwilliams80 said:


> No problem btcharlie. I just didn't want folks to think I was using a emotional story for comparison with baptism.
> 
> 
> I live how I keep getting singled out here about a minister being wrong. I've been wrong many times but I don't believe I'm wrong in this discussion. Just to let you know I worry about the way you believe on this subject and try to enlighten you the way your trying to enlighten me
> 
> Oh yea and I misquoted on what Paul said to the Romans. It's "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.



I deeply regret that several hundred miles stand between me and the blessing that could be mine by sitting before you tomorrow morning.



BT Charlie said:


> My heart is broken.  McWilliams' dying friend was nothing more than a prop for human debate replete with emoticons:
> 
> Christ alone v. Must add water.
> 
> May this man have found more love, compassion and other salt in his few hours of remaining light. May it be so for all Forumites.
> 
> Proposed new thread topic: What would an "Apostles' Verified Joint Letter to Forumites Who Quarreled Over Salvation" contain?



I will be back when your proposed thread, or evidence of its' serious consideration, is manifested.

It seems that the same character is here now that existed when it was believers and nonbelievers sniping at each other.


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> If you have not been buried with Christ in baptism, you are not in union with Christ.


And you do this physically? In the flesh?


----------



## centerpin fan

jmharris23 said:


> I just can't agree that someone's salvation hinge on it.



At what point would you say someone is united with Christ?




jmharris23 said:


> ... what do you do with the Methodist tradition of sprinkling? Are they not saved according to your stance?



Biblical baptism is immersion.




jmharris23 said:


> And as far as the decision being God's.....I would say that's always the case regarding the salvation of any person.



Agreed.


----------



## centerpin fan

hummerpoo said:


> It seems that the same character is here now that existed when it was believers and nonbelievers sniping at each other.



I disagree.  Reading some old "KJV only" threads might change your mind.


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> And you do this physically? In the flesh?



I did not literally travel 2,000 years back in time and get sealed in the tomb with Jesus.  I was literally buried with him in the waters of baptism "into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life."


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> I did not literally travel 2,000 years back in time and get sealed in the tomb with Jesus.  I was literally buried with him in the waters of baptism "into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life."


You works guys are stylish, I'll give you that.


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> You works guys are stylish, I'll give you that.



I'm saved by grace through faith, "not by works, so that no one can boast."


----------



## Israel

can it be I am saved...by someone else's faith...even credited to me...someone who believed...even someone like me could be made acceptable to God?

For when I was yet without strength, hope, or God in the world...


----------



## gemcgrew

Israel said:


> can it be I am saved...by someone else's faith...even credited to me...someone who believed...even someone like me could be made acceptable to God?
> 
> For when I was yet without strength, hope, or God in the world...


I believe so. My hope is not in my faith, my repentance, my baptism or my doings. My hope is in the doing and dying of Christ my Savior. All claims of justice against me are answered.

“I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.”


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> Some believe that they are saved through their obedience. I see obedience as the fruit of, not cause of, the new birth.
> 
> They claim to be saved through the physical act of baptism, but deny that it is a work.



As usual, no Scriptural reference here... it's said as if it's the truth.  1 Peter 1:22 states "Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart."  But, since you believe in irresistible grace and depravity, I'm certain you'll have a way to explain this to mean something that it doesn't.


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> They claim to be saved through the physical act of baptism, but deny that it is a work.


----------



## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> Faith by the way is not a work. If I had to work to have faith then it would not be faith!



I'm wondering how you can make this statement.  There is no place in Scripture which defines "works" as either faith or baptism.  In fact, the "works" referred to in the NT are typically references to the law of Moses.  And, as much as many do not want to consider it, Ephesians 2 DOES talk about the Jewish-Gentile relationship.  Thus, it's at least possible that the "works" of Ephesians 2:9 might refer to the "works of the law also.

Also, if you a person must have belief to be saved, that's a "work" also using your definition.


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> They claim to be saved through the physical act of baptism, but deny that it is a work.





centerpin fan said:


> Based on our religious backgrounds, we all have a standard for when salvation occurs.  We must:
> 
> 1) Accept Christ,
> 2) Profess Christ,
> 3) Make a decision for Christ,
> 4) Be a part of the elect or
> 5) Repent and be baptized.



In practice, #1, 2  and 3 generally involve a prayer (with lips moving.)  The prayer is often accompanied by raising your hand, walking the aisle, kneeling at the altar, etc.  In other words, they are physical acts.  I base this on years of witnessing #1, 2  and 3 in action.


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> As usual, no Scriptural reference here... it's said as if it's the truth.  1 Peter 1:22 states "Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart."  But, since you believe in irresistible grace and depravity, I'm certain you'll have a way to explain this to mean something that it doesn't.


Verse 23 explains it. "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."


----------



## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> Im with you 98% here excluding the saved "through water"but..
> 
> You lost me here. People died in the faith of a coming redeemer. There was no salvation before the shed blood, if there was then I would say that contradicts a LOT of scripture. The proclamation Jesus made in paradise would be the Gospel...once heard they could accept the blood since God is no respector of persons.



People who lived under previous covenants did not have to render obedience to the gospel - they simply had to do whatever God had told them to do in order to have the blood of Christ applied to them.  The word "proclaim" in the NT literally means to herald (announce) a message.  It doesn't necessarily refer to one preaching a message where people are expected to respond.  The fact this word can be interpreted two ways means we don't know for certain what the message was... and no other NT passage brings clarity to it.


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> In practice, #1, 2  and 3 generally involve a prayer (with lips moving.)  The prayer is often accompanied by raising your hand, walking the aisle, kneeling at the altar, etc.  In other words, they are physical acts.  I base this on years of witnessing #1, 2  and 3 in action.


I agree. Christ alone!


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> I agree. Christ alone!



I thought we might agree on that one.


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> Verse 23 explains it. "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."



So you just ignore verse 22 then... that's the issue with so many who comment on this thread.  I AGREE that a person must be born again (John 3:3,5).  I AGREE a person must also believe in Jesus (John 8:24).  I AGREE a person must repent (Luke 13:3,5).  I AGREE a person must confess his belief in Christ (Matthew 10:32).  All of these things are essential for one to be saved - too many references and examples in the NT to ignore these teachings.

Yet, when the subject of baptism is raised and passages are cited which contain the EXACT same language in them, many of you guys find some way to dismiss every one of them.  Gem... you've demonstrated it beautifully... you move to verse 22 and simply ignore verse 21 - because it doesn't fit your theology.


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> So you just ignore verse 22 then... that's the issue with so many who comment on this thread.  I AGREE that a person must be born again (John 3:3,5).  I AGREE a person must also believe in Jesus (John 8:24).  I AGREE a person must repent (Luke 13:3,5).  I AGREE a person must confess his belief in Christ (Matthew 10:32).  All of these things are essential for one to be saved - too many references and examples in the NT to ignore these teachings.
> 
> Yet, when the subject of baptism is raised and passages are cited which contain the EXACT same language in them, many of you guys find some way to dismiss every one of them.  Gem... you've demonstrated it beautifully... you move to verse 22 and simply ignore verse 21 - because it doesn't fit your theology.


I did not ignore anything, I just understand context. Why are they obedient? Verse 23 tells us.


----------



## Bama4me

jmharris23 said:


> I agree that baptism is important. I ask that everyone who professes faith in my church or wants to join in membership be baptized.
> 
> I just can't agree that someone's salvation hinge on it.
> 
> For those of you that seem to, even though you don't seem to want to make those proclamations,i.e., the man with leukemia, what do you do with the Methodist tradition of sprinkling? Are they not saved according to your stance?
> 
> And as far as the decision being God's.....I would say that's always the case regarding the salvation of any person.



Two questions... one, where do you draw the line as to when a person is saved?  You mention that someone wanting to be part of your church must "profess faith".  Is that where you draw the line?  If it is, what about the millions of good, moral people who die like MW's friend who never "professed their faith"?

Two... can you find anywhere in NT Scripture where a person was sprinkled and it's called "baptism?  Just because religious group practice something similar, that doesn't make it acceptable to God.  Praying a "sinner's prayer, for example, is similar to confession of belief in Jesus... but you never find one time in the NT where people were told to say a sinner's prayer.

The bible routinely speaks of "establishing one's salvation" and people who THINK they are pleasing to Christ.  Yet, many simply won't submit to God's righteousness... or be willing to fully obey God's will (Matthew 7:21-23, Romans 10:1-4).


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> I did not ignore anything, I just understand context. Why are they obedient? Verse 23 tells us.



Nope... they were purified by their obedience to the truth, which included the new birth.  Earlier, you claimed "obedience" was not necessary for salvation... and this passage clearly says otherwise.


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> Nope... they were purified by their obedience to the truth, which included the new birth.  Earlier, you claimed "obedience" was not necessary for salvation... and this passage clearly says otherwise.


Verse 22 is not referencing salvation, but brotherly love.


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama, obedience is necessary evidence of, not the cause of the new creation. If we could be obedient before the new birth, that would be a good thing, but there is none that doeth good.


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> Bama, obedience is necessary evidence of, not the cause of the new creation. If we could be obedient before the new birth, that would be a good thing, but there is none that doeth good.



People are not depraved - incapable of anything good prior to their conversion.  As many passages you can cite which seem to support this idea, I can cite others which totally refute it.  It was part of the OSAS thread... and the point I made over there is seen once again here.  The statement being "when a person subscribes to Calvinism, if affects EVERY biblical subject which involves people."


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> People are not depraved - incapable of anything good prior to their conversion.  As many passages you can cite which seem to support this idea, I can cite others which totally refute it.  It was part of the OSAS thread... and the point I made over there is seen once again here.  The statement being "when a person subscribes to Calvinism, if affects EVERY biblical subject which involves people."


Cite away. When the Holy Spirit revealed myself to me, only then did I understand my condition. It forced me to take hold of the one thing necessary, Christ. Calvin did not teach me this.


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> Verse 22 is not referencing salvation, but brotherly love.



You need to research the term "purified" in the NT.  In Hebrews 9:22, the writer said "almost everything (in the law) was purified by blood."  But somehow you are sure that the "purification" of 1 Peter 1:21 ISN'T purification by blood?  

Sorry... I'm happy to let the bible comment on itself.  The bible says we are cleansed (purified) when we obey the truth.  When we obey the truth, we're "set free" from sin (John 8:32).  You claim a person is "set free" and "purified" by something other than obedience.  That simply doesn't agree with the whole of Scripture.


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> You need to research the term "purified" in the NT.  In Hebrews 9:22, the writer said "almost everything (in the law) was purified by blood."  But somehow you are sure that the "purification" of 1 Peter 1:21 ISN'T purification by blood?
> 
> Sorry... I'm happy to let the bible comment on itself.  The bible says we are cleansed (purified) when we obey the truth.  When we obey the truth, we're "set free" from sin (John 8:32).  You claim a person is "set free" and "purified" by something other than obedience.  That simply doesn't agree with the whole of Scripture.


Something other than my obedience, the obedience of Christ!


----------



## hobbs27

Bama4me said:


> I'm wondering how you can make this statement.  There is no place in Scripture which defines "works" as either faith or baptism.  In fact, the "works" referred to in the NT are typically references to the law of Moses.  And, as much as many do not want to consider it, Ephesians 2 DOES talk about the Jewish-Gentile relationship.  Thus, it's at least possible that the "works" of Ephesians 2:9 might refer to the "works of the law also.
> 
> Also, if you a person must have belief to be saved, that's a "work" also using your definition.



Please explain how something as passive as belief and faith could possibly be considered a work. Works can perfect faith...but works is not faith.


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> But somehow you are sure that the "purification" of 1 Peter 1:21 ISN'T purification by blood?


"Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:"

hagnizó: to purify, cleanse from defilement
Original Word: á¼�Î³Î½Î¯Î¶Ï‰
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hagnizó
Phonetic Spelling: (hag-nid'-zo)
Short Definition: I cleanse, purify
Definition: I cleanse, purify, either ceremonially, actually, or morally.

Bama, are believers being addressed here or not? Is the subject at issue brotherly love or not? Is brotherly love not evidence of being a believer?


----------



## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> Please explain how something as passive as belief and faith could possibly be considered a work.



Why leave baptism off the list?  It's something done _to_ you by someone else.


----------



## hobbs27

Bama4me said:


> People who lived under previous covenants did not have to render obedience to the gospel - they simply had to do whatever God had told them to do in order to have the blood of Christ applied to them.  The word "proclaim" in the NT literally means to herald (announce) a message.  It doesn't necessarily refer to one preaching a message where people are expected to respond.  The fact this word can be interpreted two ways means we don't know for certain what the message was... and no other NT passage brings clarity to it.



John 6:46"Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.

Not anyone at the time Christ was making His walk on earth had seen the Father...Those that had a chance were awaiting the blood in paradise.
 They could not have possibly received the blood that had yet to be shed.


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> Cite away. When the Holy Spirit revealed myself to me, only then did I understand my condition. It forced me to take hold of the one thing necessary, Christ. Calvin did not teach me this.



The Holy Spirit reveals it through a study/preaching of God's word.  That's why Romans 10:17 says faith comes when someone comes into contact with God's word.  A person can KNOW he/she is lost when they read passages like Romans 3:23, Acts 17:30, etc.  They don't have to be shown that via a direct revelation from God.  Also, God doesn't force us to do anything - he allows us choice in the matter.  But... we've already covered that front earlier on another thread - and neither of us are going to concede and agree with the other.  

I agree that Calvin didn't teach people anything... at least as it regards to the five principles he strongly espoused and his tinkering with James 2:24.


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> The Holy Spirit reveals it through a study/preaching of God's word.  That's why Romans 10:17 says faith comes when someone comes into contact with God's word.  A person can KNOW he/she is lost when they read passages like Romans 3:23, Acts 17:30, etc.  They don't have to be shown that via a direct revelation from God.  Also, God doesn't force us to do anything - he allows us choice in the matter.  But... we've already covered that front earlier on another thread - and neither of us are going to concede and agree with the other.
> 
> I agree that Calvin didn't teach people anything... at least as it regards to the five principles he strongly espoused and his tinkering with James 2:24.


Unbelievable.


----------



## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> Please explain how something as passive as belief and faith could possibly be considered a work. Works can perfect faith...but works is not faith.



Belief and faith are passive?  You believe that the first president of the US was George Washington?  If you do, you accepted it in your mind as truth when someone taught it to you... you were "active" (not passive) when you believed.  Faith, according to Romans 10:17, comes when one hears God's word.  Just like belief, which is a part of faith, it's something as person actively does.  I think you're defining "a work" is something which is done outwardly... and a "non-work" is something which occurs in a person's mind.  

If what happens inside us is something in which is "passive" in nature, why did Jesus emphasize the internal motives giving rise to outward actions in Matthew 5:21ff?  My definition of "works" is anything a person may do - and encompasses belief and other such things.


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:"
> 
> hagnizó: to purify, cleanse from defilement
> Original Word: á¼�Î³Î½Î¯Î¶Ï‰
> Part of Speech: Verb
> Transliteration: hagnizó
> Phonetic Spelling: (hag-nid'-zo)
> Short Definition: I cleanse, purify
> Definition: I cleanse, purify, either ceremonially, actually, or morally.
> 
> Bama, are believers being addressed here or not? Is the subject at issue brotherly love or not? Is brotherly love not evidence of being a believer?



You're sidestepping the issue.  You claimed earlier that obedience isn't necessary to one's salvation... and this shows your position to be false.


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> Unbelievable.



What is unbelievable is that you claim a person cannot read Romans 3:23 without the Holy Spirit personally leading him and realize he is imperfect.  The people on Pentecost understood Peter's message without personally having the Holy Spirit inside them... the Samaritans of Acts 8 didn't have the Holy Spirit when they believed and were baptized (8:14-16).  Yet, you claim a person has to be indwelled by the Holy Spirit in order to understand.  Once again, that's due to your belief in Calvinistic teachings (depravity and irresistible grace).


----------



## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> John 6:46"Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.
> 
> Not anyone at the time Christ was making His walk on earth had seen the Father...Those that had a chance were awaiting the blood in paradise.
> They could not have possibly received the blood that had yet to be shed.



1 Peter 3:19ff says Jesus proclaimed a message to those in prison - those who were formerly disobedient.  Thus, the message He proclaimed was NOT to those in Paradise, but those in torments.  IF we believe Jesus preached the gospel and someone "repented", that means people had a second chance (outside life on earth) for salvation - a concept contradictory to the bible.


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> You're sidestepping the issue.  You claimed earlier that obedience isn't necessary to one's salvation... and this shows your position to be false.


No, I am pointing out your misapplication. Show me where I said obedience is not necessary.


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> No, I am pointing out your misapplication. Show me where I said obedience is not necessary.



Post 394... you said obedience is a fruit which results from one being saved, not necessary for salvation.  1 Peter 1:22 states otherwise.  It's love, not obedience to the truth, that is the "fruit."  One loves BECAUSE he's obeyed the truth, which includes the new birth.


----------



## hobbs27

Bama4me said:


> 1 Peter 3:19ff says Jesus proclaimed a message to those in prison - those who were formerly disobedient.  Thus, the message He proclaimed was NOT to those in Paradise, but those in torments.  IF we believe Jesus preached the gospel and someone "repented", that means people had a second chance (outside life on earth) for salvation - a concept contradictory to the bible.



Thank you for posting this in Peter. When I think of Jesus leading the captive my mind takes me to Ephesians 4:7-9

7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

These were the ones that died in the faith of a savior to come. Jesus went to paradise into the lower parts of the earth to those in wait.

 But the revelation I received from Peter is awesome indeed..Jesus proclaimed a message to those that were in prison which had been previously disobedient.

 The first Christians and the Jews before Christ had a book of scripture they read from known as the book of enoch. In this book we learn about Angels, {called sons of God in Genesis} that came to earth and took human women as wives and had children with them { these offspring are the Giants spoken of in Genesis} . This angered God and he bound them in the earth to the day of judgement...70 generations! which brings us to the cross. While bound they had to suffer the flood which Noah survived...these Angels loved their offspring and had to watch them die in the flood..it cleansed humanity of the celestial dna so to speak.
 I believe these are the ones spoken of in Peter..the ones that were formerly disobedient... Yes! 

 Now, as for contradicting the bible, thats on your explanation...There is only one way to the Father and that is through the Son. The OT saints died and were held in Paradise awaiting the shed blood of Christ. If you say OT people could make it to heaven before Christ you are contradicting the entire New Testament. 

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.


And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


----------



## Ronnie T

jmharris23 said:


> I agree that baptism is important. I ask that everyone who professes faith in my church or wants to join in membership be baptized.
> 
> I just can't agree that someone's salvation hinge on it.
> Do you believe that a person who, in faith, accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior but in that same faith refuse baptism can be saved?  I don't.  If they would decide that, I don't believe they have faith at all.
> 
> For those of you that seem to, even though you don't seem to want to make those proclamations,i.e., the man with leukemia, what do you do with the Methodist tradition of sprinkling? Are they not saved according to your stance?
> 
> 
> And as far as the decision being God's.....I would say that's always the case regarding the salvation of any person.





jmharris23 said:


> I guess the biggest problem I am having here is that those who believe that baptism is necessary for salvation don't seem to want to go far enough to say that without baptism a person is bound for h e l l. When pressed on it the answer has been ,"That's not my decision to make."
> 
> I don't see how that can be. If you are convinced that baptism is a requirement of salvation it should be easy enough to say whether or not a person is saved.
> 
> Baptized = saved / Not Baptized = not saved
> 
> Either it is required or it is not. I don't see how it can be both ways?
> Baptism doesn't necessarily = saved.  It could mean a person just got wet.  But after reading God's word, I believe any person who refuses baptism has demonstrated a lack of faith to receive salvation.
> The Bible doesn't leave an 'out' from baptism.  But I assume God will have special consideration for a person who wants to experience baptism but is physically unable to.   Assume.  Truly I only know what the Bible records for me.



Why did Paul baptize those 12 men in the beginning verses of Acts 19?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Wow, lots of interesting conversation going on here. And I remember when people thought my beliefs were "out there."(some of them still are)
When all is said and done we must decide if our salvation is all of God's doing or if we must do something. If we must do something as in even believing it is most assuredly a work. We don't do things passively. Mental decisions are the cause of sins. Our mind is what makes our body sin. Believing, repenting, baptism, praying, loving, forgiving, obedience, etc. are all works just as helping an old lady cross the street.
We just have to decide if any or all of those works are part of our salvation. People believed before they were baptized at the Pentecost. There could be an order to these works as we are on our journey into Christianity. Obedience is required for salvation even if it is a fruit so it doesn't really matter, it's still required.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Thank you for posting this in Peter. When I think of Jesus leading the captive my mind takes me to Ephesians 4:7-9
> 
> 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
> 
> 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
> 
> 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
> 
> These were the ones that died in the faith of a savior to come. Jesus went to paradise into the lower parts of the earth to those in wait.
> 
> But the revelation I received from Peter is awesome indeed..Jesus proclaimed a message to those that were in prison which had been previously disobedient.
> 
> The first Christians and the Jews before Christ had a book of scripture they read from known as the book of enoch. In this book we learn about Angels, {called sons of God in Genesis} that came to earth and took human women as wives and had children with them { these offspring are the Giants spoken of in Genesis} . This angered God and he bound them in the earth to the day of judgement...70 generations! which brings us to the cross. While bound they had to suffer the flood which Noah survived...these Angels loved their offspring and had to watch them die in the flood..it cleansed humanity of the celestial dna so to speak.
> I believe these are the ones spoken of in Peter..the ones that were formerly disobedient... Yes!
> 
> Now, as for contradicting the bible, thats on your explanation...There is only one way to the Father and that is through the Son. The OT saints died and were held in Paradise awaiting the shed blood of Christ. If you say OT people could make it to heaven before Christ you are contradicting the entire New Testament.
> 
> For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
> 
> 
> And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
> And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.



There is a lot about death that we don't really understand. I believe some of what you believe. I'm not even sure if we even go to Heaven or He!! until Jesus returns for the judgement. But either way believers who died before Jesus died could have been in Paradise instead of going to Heaven.
I don't believe anyone who died after Jesus died has a second chance after death at salvation.


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> I'm saved by grace through faith, "not by works, so that no one can boast."



What do you call the obedient act of following a fellow man into a body of water to be dunked?


----------



## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> Hebrews 10 You boys that think or believe that water baptism is essential for salvation better wake up, if you have not believed {1 Cor. 15:1-4}on the Sinless Blood one time Sacrifice{Propitiation} of the Lord Jesus Christ, you might want to get fitted for a fire suit.



Why would someone like you who believes in blessed assurance say to another Christian they might need a fire suit for believing in water baptism? I don't agree that water baptism is a part of salvation but why would a belief in it warrant a fire suit? 
If someone is saved by grace and faith alone, do they have to also believe that is all that's needed to gain salvation?
What else do I have to believe in to gain salvation by grace & faith alone? The Trinity?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Did anyone have any remarks about the thief on the cross? He believed before Jesus died(Old Covenant) but died after Jesus(New Covenant)?
Is there some other dispensation between Jesus' death and the Pentecost that he would have been under?


----------



## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> Hebrews 10 You boys that think or believe that water baptism is essential for salvation better wake up, if you have not believed {1 Cor. 15:1-4}on the Sinless Blood one time Sacrifice{Propitiation} of the Lord Jesus Christ, you might want to get fitted for a fire suit. :;





Artfuldodger said:


> Why would someone like you who believes in blessed assurance say to another Christian they might need a fire suit for believing in water baptism? I don't agree that water baptism is a part of salvation but why would a belief in it warrant a fire suit?
> If someone is saved by grace and faith alone, do they have to also believe that is all that's needed to gain salvation?
> What else do I have to believe in to gain salvation by grace & faith alone? The Trinity?



It's alright Art.  What barry doesn't acknowledge is the fact that all those people in Hebrews 10 have already been baptized.


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> Post 394... you said obedience is a fruit which results from one being saved, not necessary for salvation.  1 Peter 1:22 states otherwise.  It's love, not obedience to the truth, that is the "fruit."  One loves BECAUSE he's obeyed the truth, which includes the new birth.


"Verily, verily, I say unto you, except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit." (John 12:24)


----------



## jmharris23

Ronnie T said:


> Why did Paul baptize those 12 men in the beginning verses of Acts 19?



I've never had anyone refuse to be baptized. What you say about baptism is not what bothers me. 

I am/was more concerned with what you think about the guy that gives his heart to the Lord on Tuesday morning after being witnessed to by his co-worker and dies in an automobile accident before getting to church on Sunday morning to be baptized. 

Did he go to h e l l because he didn't make it t the water? 

I know your answer now that I've read your responses. You assume that he will not and that God will be merciful to him. Am I correct here?


----------



## Ronnie T

jmharris23 said:


> I've never had anyone refuse to be baptized. What you say about baptism is not what bothers me.
> 
> I am/was more concerned with what you think about the guy that gives his heart to the Lord on Tuesday morning after being witnessed to by his co-worker and dies in an automobile accident before getting to church on Sunday morning to be baptized.
> 
> Did he go to h e l l because he didn't make it t the water?
> 
> I know you're answer now that I've read your responses. You assume that he will not and that God will be merciful to him. Am I correct here?



Yes.  You're up very early this morning.

It's my hope and expectation that God accepted that person's faith and commitment.


----------



## jmharris23

Ronnie T said:


> Yes.  You're up very early this morning.
> 
> It's my hope and expectation that God accepted that person's faith and commitment.



I always get up early on Sundays....helps me have a clear mind. Although we disagree (kind of) I appreciate your passion and the spirit in which you have handled this debate


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> There is a lot about death that we don't really understand. I believe some of what you believe. I'm not even sure if we even go to Heaven or He!! until Jesus returns for the judgement. But either way believers who died before Jesus died could have been in Paradise instead of going to Heaven.
> I don't believe anyone who died after Jesus died has a second chance after death at salvation.





Artfuldodger said:


> Did anyone have any remarks about the thief on the cross? He believed before Jesus died(Old Covenant) but died after Jesus(New Covenant)?
> Is there some other dispensation between Jesus' death and the Pentecost that he would have been under?



The bible says" to be absent from the body is to be present with The Lord". I don't know exactly where we will be when die, but I know I'll take my last breath here and be present with The Lord the next



Still can't use the thief on the cross cause salvation wasn't completed till he became high priest and presented his blood to our father in heaven and then he raised himself from the grave.


----------



## centerpin fan

jmharris23 said:


> I am/was more concerned with what you think about the guy that gives his heart to the Lord on Tuesday morning after being witnessed to by his co-worker and dies in an automobile accident before getting to church on Sunday morning to be baptized.
> 
> Did he go to h e l l because he didn't make it t the water?



I know you came to this discussion late and haven’t read all the posts.   Can you please take a look at posts 144 and 146 and tell me if you agree with mwilliams80?


----------



## centerpin fan

On a side note, I hope Sunday sermons went well for our resident ministers.


----------



## jmharris23

centerpin fan said:


> I know you came to this discussion late and haven’t read all the posts.   Can you please take a look at posts 144 and 146 and tell me if you agree with mwilliams80?



I assume you are asking about the "age of accountability"? 

If so I will have to answer it like several others have answered questions in this thread.

Only God knows and ultimately it is up to him. 

If you pressed me on it then I would answer it much like this but maybe a little less articulately. 

http://brandonacox.com/theology/children-and-the-age-of-accountability/


----------



## centerpin fan

jmharris23 said:


> I assume you are asking about the "age of accountability"?



No, I was asking whether or not she was saved.  Sorry that wasn't clear.


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> No, I was asking whether or not she was saved.  Sorry that wasn't clear.


In your hypothetical, is she regenerate or unregenerate when she died?


----------



## jmharris23

centerpin fan said:


> No, I was asking whether or not she was saved.  Sorry that wasn't clear.



Assuming then that the little girl was capable of understanding the gospel, then I believe that she would have been saved the moment she put her faith in Christ as her savior. 

If she died before then, then she was not saved. 

Of course only the Father knows at what point she professed faith in Christ.


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> In your hypothetical, is she regenerate or unregenerate when she died?



Unregenerate.


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> Unregenerate.


Not saved.


----------



## Ronnie T

Yall are asking too much for me to offer an opinion on a 12 year old little girl.

Anyway, you know what they say about opinions don't you.  Oh, wait, wrong phrase I think.
.


----------



## jmharris23

Ronnie T said:


> Yall are asking too much for me to offer an opinion on a 12 year old little girl.
> 
> Anyway, you know what they say about opinions don't you.  Oh, wait, wrong phrase I think.
> .



Oh I don't know....it seems appropriate to me


----------



## centerpin fan

> I agree that baptism is important....  I just can't agree that someone's salvation hinge on it.




These guys beg to differ.


THE EPISTLE OF BARNABAS (c. A.D. 70)
Now let us see if the Lord has been at any pains to give us a foreshadowing of the waters of Baptism and of the cross. Regarding the former, we have the evidence of Scripture that Israel would refuse to accept the washing which confers the remission of sins and would set up a substitution of their own instead [Jer 22:13; Isa 16:1-2; 33:16-18; Psalm 1:3-6]. Observe there how he describes both the water and the cross in the same figure. His meaning is, "Blessed are those who go down into the water with their hopes set on the cross." Here he is saying that after we have stepped down into the water, burdened with sin and defilement, we come up out of it bearing fruit, with reverence in our hearts and the hope of Jesus in our souls. (11:1-10)

THE SHEPHERD OF HERMAS (c. A.D. 140)
"I have heard, sir," said I, "from some teachers, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins." He said to me, "You have heard rightly, for so it is." (The Shepherd 4:3:1-2) 
They had need [the Shepherd said] to come up through the water, so that they might be made alive; for they could not otherwise enter into the kingdom of God, except by putting away the mortality of their former life. These also, then, who had fallen asleep, received the seal of the Son of God, and entered into the kingdom of God. For, [he said,] before a man bears the name of the Son of God, he is dead. But when he receives the seal, he puts mortality aside and again receives life. The seal, therefore, is the water. They go down into the water dead [in sin], and come out of it alive. (ibid 9:16:2-4)

ST. JUSTIN MARTYR (inter A.D. 148-155)
Whoever is convinced and believes that what they are taught and told by us is the truth, and professes to be able to live accordingly, is instructed to pray and to beseech God in fasting for the remission of their former sins, while we pray and fast with them. Then they are led by us to a place where there is water; and there they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: In the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they receive the washing with water. For Christ said, "Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." ...The reason for doing this, we have learned from the Apostles. (The First Apology 61)

ST. THEOPHILUS OF ANTIOCH (c. A.D. 181)
Moreover, those things which were created from the waters were blessed by God, so that this might also be a sign that men would at a future time receive repentance and remission of sins through water and the bath of regeneration -- all who proceed to the truth and are born again and receive a blessing from God. (To Autolycus 2:16)

ST. IRENAEUS (c. A.D. 190)
"And [Naaman] dipped himself...seven times in the Jordan" [2 Kings 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: "Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Fragment 34)

TERTULLIAN (inter A.D. 200-206)
A treatise on our sacrament of water, by which the sins of our earlier blindness are washed away and we are released for eternal life will not be superfluous.....taking away death by the washing away of sins. The guilt being removed, the penalty, of course, is also removed.....Baptism is itself a corporal act by which we are plunged in water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from sins. (On Baptism 1:1; 5:6; 7:2)
...no one can attain salvation without Baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says: "Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life." (On Baptism 12:1)

ST. CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA (ante A.D. 202)
When we are baptized, we are enlightened. Being enlightened, we are adopted as sons. Adopted as sons, we are made perfect. Made perfect, we become immortal...."and sons all of the Most High" [Psalm 82:6]. This work is variously called grace, illumination, perfection, and washing. It is a washing by which we are cleansed of sins; a gift of grace by which the punishments due our sins are remitted; an illumination by which we behold that holy light of salvation -- that is, by which we see God clearly; and we call that perfection which leaves nothing lacking. Indeed, if a man know God, what more does he need? Certainly it were out of place to call that which is not complete a true gift of God's grace. Because God is perfect, the gifts He bestows are perfect. (The Instructor of Children 1:6:26:1)

RECOGNITIONS OF CLEMENT (c. A.D. 221)
But you will perhaps say, "What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?" In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so ...you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true Prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: "Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water....he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Recognitions 6:9)

ST. CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE (c. 200 - 258 A.D.)
But afterwards, when the stain of my past life had been washed away by means of the water of re-birth, a light from above poured itself upon my chastened and now pure heart; afterwards through the Spirit which is breathed from heaven, a second birth made of me a new man... Thus it had to be acknowledged that what was of the earth and was born of the flesh and had lived submissive to sins, had now begun to be of God, inasmuch as the Holy Spirit was animating it. (To Donatus 4)
[When] they receive also the Baptism of the Church...then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God...since it is written, "Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Letters 71[72]:1)
[It] behooves those to be baptized...so that they are prepared, in the lawful and true and only Baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God...because it is written, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Letters 72[73]:21)

ST. CYRIL OF JERUSALEM (c. A.D. 350)
If any man does not receive Baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who, even without water, will receive the kingdom....for the Savior calls martyrdom a Baptism (cf. Mark 10:38) ...Bearing your sins, you go down into the water; but the calling down of grace seals your soul and does not permit that you afterwards be swallowed up by the fearsome dragon. You go down dead in your sins, and come up made alive in righteousness. (Catechetical Lectures 3:10,12)
Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul....When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Holy Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter.
And He says, "Unless a man be born again" -- and He adds the words "of water and of the Spirit" -- "he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven.
A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it.

ST. AMBROSE OF MILAN (c. A.D. 333 - 397)
The Lord was baptized, not to be cleansed Himself but to cleanse the waters, so that those waters, cleansed by the flesh of Christ which knew no sin, might have the power of Baptism. Whoever comes, therefore, to the washing of Christ lays aside his sins. (Commentary on the Gospel of Luke 2:83)
The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ's blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in Baptism -- Col 2:11-13] so that he can be saved...for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of Baptism...."Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (On Abraham 2:11:79,84)
You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in Baptism are one: water, blood and the Spirit [1 John 5:8]: and if you withdraw any one of these, the sacrament of Baptism is not valid. For what is the water without the cross of Christ? A common element with no sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water: for "unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (On the Mysteries 4:20)


----------



## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> Thank you for posting this in Peter. When I think of Jesus leading the captive my mind takes me to Ephesians 4:7-9
> 
> 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
> 
> 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
> 
> 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
> 
> These were the ones that died in the faith of a savior to come. Jesus went to paradise into the lower parts of the earth to those in wait.
> 
> But the revelation I received from Peter is awesome indeed..Jesus proclaimed a message to those that were in prison which had been previously disobedient.
> 
> The first Christians and the Jews before Christ had a book of scripture they read from known as the book of enoch. In this book we learn about Angels, {called sons of God in Genesis} that came to earth and took human women as wives and had children with them { these offspring are the Giants spoken of in Genesis} . This angered God and he bound them in the earth to the day of judgement...70 generations! which brings us to the cross. While bound they had to suffer the flood which Noah survived...these Angels loved their offspring and had to watch them die in the flood..it cleansed humanity of the celestial dna so to speak.
> I believe these are the ones spoken of in Peter..the ones that were formerly disobedient... Yes!
> 
> Now, as for contradicting the bible, thats on your explanation...There is only one way to the Father and that is through the Son. The OT saints died and were held in Paradise awaiting the shed blood of Christ. If you say OT people could make it to heaven before Christ you are contradicting the entire New Testament.
> 
> For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
> 
> 
> And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
> And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.



I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.  If we read Hebrews 10:1-4, we understand no one who lived faithfully to God was truly cleansed of their sins prior to Jesus death on the cross.  Souls who had lived faithfully to God before Christ awaited in Hades (Paradise) for Jesus to shed His blood.  However, there's nothing in Scripture which suggests they had to do anything further after their time here on earth.  They lived under their covenant with God in a faithful manner - they didn't have to become converted to Christ or anything of that nature.  I'm NOT saying any if them went to heaven prior to the blood of Christ was shed - simply they didn't have to hear and respond to the gospel.  There's simply not enough info in the NT to support such a claim.

Regarding the book of Enoch, it was not considered in the biblical canon by the Jews.  It WAS, however, a false interpretation of the things written in Genesis 6:1ff.  However, that's quite off the topic we're discussing here.


----------



## Bama4me

centerpin fan said:


> These guys beg to differ.
> 
> 
> THE EPISTLE OF BARNABAS (c. A.D. 70)
> Now let us see if the Lord has been at any pains to give us a foreshadowing of the waters of Baptism and of the cross. Regarding the former, we have the evidence of Scripture that Israel would refuse to accept the washing which confers the remission of sins and would set up a substitution of their own instead [Jer 22:13; Isa 16:1-2; 33:16-18; Psalm 1:3-6]. Observe there how he describes both the water and the cross in the same figure. His meaning is, "Blessed are those who go down into the water with their hopes set on the cross." Here he is saying that after we have stepped down into the water, burdened with sin and defilement, we come up out of it bearing fruit, with reverence in our hearts and the hope of Jesus in our souls. (11:1-10)
> 
> THE SHEPHERD OF HERMAS (c. A.D. 140)
> "I have heard, sir," said I, "from some teachers, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins." He said to me, "You have heard rightly, for so it is." (The Shepherd 4:3:1-2)
> They had need [the Shepherd said] to come up through the water, so that they might be made alive; for they could not otherwise enter into the kingdom of God, except by putting away the mortality of their former life. These also, then, who had fallen asleep, received the seal of the Son of God, and entered into the kingdom of God. For, [he said,] before a man bears the name of the Son of God, he is dead. But when he receives the seal, he puts mortality aside and again receives life. The seal, therefore, is the water. They go down into the water dead [in sin], and come out of it alive. (ibid 9:16:2-4)
> 
> ST. JUSTIN MARTYR (inter A.D. 148-155)
> Whoever is convinced and believes that what they are taught and told by us is the truth, and professes to be able to live accordingly, is instructed to pray and to beseech God in fasting for the remission of their former sins, while we pray and fast with them. Then they are led by us to a place where there is water; and there they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: In the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they receive the washing with water. For Christ said, "Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." ...The reason for doing this, we have learned from the Apostles. (The First Apology 61)
> 
> ST. THEOPHILUS OF ANTIOCH (c. A.D. 181)
> Moreover, those things which were created from the waters were blessed by God, so that this might also be a sign that men would at a future time receive repentance and remission of sins through water and the bath of regeneration -- all who proceed to the truth and are born again and receive a blessing from God. (To Autolycus 2:16)
> 
> ST. IRENAEUS (c. A.D. 190)
> "And [Naaman] dipped himself...seven times in the Jordan" [2 Kings 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: "Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Fragment 34)
> 
> TERTULLIAN (inter A.D. 200-206)
> A treatise on our sacrament of water, by which the sins of our earlier blindness are washed away and we are released for eternal life will not be superfluous.....taking away death by the washing away of sins. The guilt being removed, the penalty, of course, is also removed.....Baptism is itself a corporal act by which we are plunged in water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from sins. (On Baptism 1:1; 5:6; 7:2)
> ...no one can attain salvation without Baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says: "Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life." (On Baptism 12:1)
> 
> ST. CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA (ante A.D. 202)
> When we are baptized, we are enlightened. Being enlightened, we are adopted as sons. Adopted as sons, we are made perfect. Made perfect, we become immortal...."and sons all of the Most High" [Psalm 82:6]. This work is variously called grace, illumination, perfection, and washing. It is a washing by which we are cleansed of sins; a gift of grace by which the punishments due our sins are remitted; an illumination by which we behold that holy light of salvation -- that is, by which we see God clearly; and we call that perfection which leaves nothing lacking. Indeed, if a man know God, what more does he need? Certainly it were out of place to call that which is not complete a true gift of God's grace. Because God is perfect, the gifts He bestows are perfect. (The Instructor of Children 1:6:26:1)
> 
> RECOGNITIONS OF CLEMENT (c. A.D. 221)
> But you will perhaps say, "What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?" In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so ...you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true Prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: "Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water....he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Recognitions 6:9)
> 
> ST. CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE (c. 200 - 258 A.D.)
> But afterwards, when the stain of my past life had been washed away by means of the water of re-birth, a light from above poured itself upon my chastened and now pure heart; afterwards through the Spirit which is breathed from heaven, a second birth made of me a new man... Thus it had to be acknowledged that what was of the earth and was born of the flesh and had lived submissive to sins, had now begun to be of God, inasmuch as the Holy Spirit was animating it. (To Donatus 4)
> [When] they receive also the Baptism of the Church...then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God...since it is written, "Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Letters 71[72]:1)
> [It] behooves those to be baptized...so that they are prepared, in the lawful and true and only Baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God...because it is written, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Letters 72[73]:21)
> 
> ST. CYRIL OF JERUSALEM (c. A.D. 350)
> If any man does not receive Baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who, even without water, will receive the kingdom....for the Savior calls martyrdom a Baptism (cf. Mark 10:38) ...Bearing your sins, you go down into the water; but the calling down of grace seals your soul and does not permit that you afterwards be swallowed up by the fearsome dragon. You go down dead in your sins, and come up made alive in righteousness. (Catechetical Lectures 3:10,12)
> Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul....When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Holy Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter.
> And He says, "Unless a man be born again" -- and He adds the words "of water and of the Spirit" -- "he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven.
> A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it.
> 
> ST. AMBROSE OF MILAN (c. A.D. 333 - 397)
> The Lord was baptized, not to be cleansed Himself but to cleanse the waters, so that those waters, cleansed by the flesh of Christ which knew no sin, might have the power of Baptism. Whoever comes, therefore, to the washing of Christ lays aside his sins. (Commentary on the Gospel of Luke 2:83)
> The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ's blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in Baptism -- Col 2:11-13] so that he can be saved...for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of Baptism...."Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (On Abraham 2:11:79,84)
> You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in Baptism are one: water, blood and the Spirit [1 John 5:8]: and if you withdraw any one of these, the sacrament of Baptism is not valid. For what is the water without the cross of Christ? A common element with no sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water: for "unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (On the Mysteries 4:20)



Thanks for doing this research CP - it's really good.


----------



## Ronnie T

centerpin fan said:


> These guys beg to differ.
> 
> 
> THE EPISTLE OF BARNABAS (c. A.D. 70)
> Now let us see if the Lord has been at any pains to give us a foreshadowing of the waters of Baptism and of the cross. Regarding the former, we have the evidence of Scripture that Israel would refuse to accept the washing which confers the remission of sins and would set up a substitution of their own instead [Jer 22:13; Isa 16:1-2; 33:16-18; Psalm 1:3-6]. Observe there how he describes both the water and the cross in the same figure. His meaning is, "Blessed are those who go down into the water with their hopes set on the cross." Here he is saying that after we have stepped down into the water, burdened with sin and defilement, we come up out of it bearing fruit, with reverence in our hearts and the hope of Jesus in our souls. (11:1-10)
> 
> THE SHEPHERD OF HERMAS (c. A.D. 140)
> "I have heard, sir," said I, "from some teachers, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins." He said to me, "You have heard rightly, for so it is." (The Shepherd 4:3:1-2)
> They had need [the Shepherd said] to come up through the water, so that they might be made alive; for they could not otherwise enter into the kingdom of God, except by putting away the mortality of their former life. These also, then, who had fallen asleep, received the seal of the Son of God, and entered into the kingdom of God. For, [he said,] before a man bears the name of the Son of God, he is dead. But when he receives the seal, he puts mortality aside and again receives life. The seal, therefore, is the water. They go down into the water dead [in sin], and come out of it alive. (ibid 9:16:2-4)
> 
> ST. JUSTIN MARTYR (inter A.D. 148-155)
> Whoever is convinced and believes that what they are taught and told by us is the truth, and professes to be able to live accordingly, is instructed to pray and to beseech God in fasting for the remission of their former sins, while we pray and fast with them. Then they are led by us to a place where there is water; and there they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: In the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they receive the washing with water. For Christ said, "Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." ...The reason for doing this, we have learned from the Apostles. (The First Apology 61)
> 
> ST. THEOPHILUS OF ANTIOCH (c. A.D. 181)
> Moreover, those things which were created from the waters were blessed by God, so that this might also be a sign that men would at a future time receive repentance and remission of sins through water and the bath of regeneration -- all who proceed to the truth and are born again and receive a blessing from God. (To Autolycus 2:16)
> 
> ST. IRENAEUS (c. A.D. 190)
> "And [Naaman] dipped himself...seven times in the Jordan" [2 Kings 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: "Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Fragment 34)
> 
> TERTULLIAN (inter A.D. 200-206)
> A treatise on our sacrament of water, by which the sins of our earlier blindness are washed away and we are released for eternal life will not be superfluous.....taking away death by the washing away of sins. The guilt being removed, the penalty, of course, is also removed.....Baptism is itself a corporal act by which we are plunged in water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from sins. (On Baptism 1:1; 5:6; 7:2)
> ...no one can attain salvation without Baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says: "Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life." (On Baptism 12:1)
> 
> ST. CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA (ante A.D. 202)
> When we are baptized, we are enlightened. Being enlightened, we are adopted as sons. Adopted as sons, we are made perfect. Made perfect, we become immortal...."and sons all of the Most High" [Psalm 82:6]. This work is variously called grace, illumination, perfection, and washing. It is a washing by which we are cleansed of sins; a gift of grace by which the punishments due our sins are remitted; an illumination by which we behold that holy light of salvation -- that is, by which we see God clearly; and we call that perfection which leaves nothing lacking. Indeed, if a man know God, what more does he need? Certainly it were out of place to call that which is not complete a true gift of God's grace. Because God is perfect, the gifts He bestows are perfect. (The Instructor of Children 1:6:26:1)
> 
> RECOGNITIONS OF CLEMENT (c. A.D. 221)
> But you will perhaps say, "What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?" In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so ...you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true Prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: "Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water....he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Recognitions 6:9)
> 
> ST. CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE (c. 200 - 258 A.D.)
> But afterwards, when the stain of my past life had been washed away by means of the water of re-birth, a light from above poured itself upon my chastened and now pure heart; afterwards through the Spirit which is breathed from heaven, a second birth made of me a new man... Thus it had to be acknowledged that what was of the earth and was born of the flesh and had lived submissive to sins, had now begun to be of God, inasmuch as the Holy Spirit was animating it. (To Donatus 4)
> [When] they receive also the Baptism of the Church...then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God...since it is written, "Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Letters 71[72]:1)
> [It] behooves those to be baptized...so that they are prepared, in the lawful and true and only Baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God...because it is written, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Letters 72[73]:21)
> 
> ST. CYRIL OF JERUSALEM (c. A.D. 350)
> If any man does not receive Baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who, even without water, will receive the kingdom....for the Savior calls martyrdom a Baptism (cf. Mark 10:38) ...Bearing your sins, you go down into the water; but the calling down of grace seals your soul and does not permit that you afterwards be swallowed up by the fearsome dragon. You go down dead in your sins, and come up made alive in righteousness. (Catechetical Lectures 3:10,12)
> Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul....When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Holy Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter.
> And He says, "Unless a man be born again" -- and He adds the words "of water and of the Spirit" -- "he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven.
> A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it.
> 
> ST. AMBROSE OF MILAN (c. A.D. 333 - 397)
> The Lord was baptized, not to be cleansed Himself but to cleanse the waters, so that those waters, cleansed by the flesh of Christ which knew no sin, might have the power of Baptism. Whoever comes, therefore, to the washing of Christ lays aside his sins. (Commentary on the Gospel of Luke 2:83)
> The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ's blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in Baptism -- Col 2:11-13] so that he can be saved...for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of Baptism...."Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (On Abraham 2:11:79,84)
> You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in Baptism are one: water, blood and the Spirit [1 John 5:8]: and if you withdraw any one of these, the sacrament of Baptism is not valid. For what is the water without the cross of Christ? A common element with no sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water: for "unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (On the Mysteries 4:20)



I didn't realize there were so many.  I was only aware of half of these.
Thanks.
.


----------



## gemcgrew

If it wasn't so serious, it would be humorous. You guys keep parading your salvation by works and at the same time deny it. Incredulous at best, dishonest at worse.


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> If it wasn't so serious, it would be humorous. You guys keep parading your salvation by works and at the same time deny it. Incredulous at best, dishonest at worse.



Any comments on post 458?


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> Any comments on post 458?


Yes, I think Paul would tell them to go emasculate themselves.


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> Yes, I think Paul would tell them to go emasculate themselves.



I disagree.  As Justin Martyr said, " ... we have learned from the Apostles."


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> If it wasn't so serious, it would be humorous. You guys keep parading your salvation by works and at the same time deny it. Incredulous at best, dishonest at worse.



Gem... you don't understand because you've convinced yourself that you have NO responsibility whatsoever for your spiritual relationship with God.  It's not just about this topic, it's about any topic relating to man.  Time after time in Scripture, there are conditional statements given about one's salvation - which focus on "doing something."

You keep "parading" your salvation by doing nothing... I'll look at Hebrews 11 and follow the time-tested examples of people like Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc.  These people are noted for their faith which caused them to obey God.  When they did what God asked, He saved them.  Under your system of theology, Noah was saved without having to build an ark... Abraham was saved without a willingness to offer his son... Moses was saved even if he had enjoyed sin for a season.

I know your position on this... that God miraculously gave all these people "faith" - but that's simply not true.  Faith comes when a person hears God's word, decides to trust in it as truth, and is willing to act upon it.

I'm not going to suggest that you are dishonest... nor am I going to say you are "incredulous"... the same bible that tells me what I must do to have salvation is the same bible which warns me of arrogance and tells me to provide bible answers in a spirit of meekness.  Does your bible tell you the same thing?


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama, your post 427 is all I need to know. We really have nothing in common here.


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> Bama, your post 427 is all I need to know. We really have nothing in common here.



I agree... your philosophy is totally different than mine and both cannot be correct.  I've been saying that on this and the OSAS thread for some time now.  But you didn't say anything in response to my last paragraph... how is it that you can imply that people discussing this subject are "dishonest"?  It implies a spirit of arrogance (presuming to know one's intentions).


----------



## Artfuldodger

Bama4me said:


> Gem... you don't understand because you've convinced yourself that you have NO responsibility whatsoever for your spiritual relationship with God.  It's not just about this topic, it's about any topic relating to man.  Time after time in Scripture, there are conditional statements given about one's salvation - which focus on "doing something."
> 
> You keep "parading" your salvation by doing nothing... I'll look at Hebrews 11 and follow the time-tested examples of people like Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc.  These people are noted for their faith which caused them to obey God.  When they did what God asked, He saved them.  Under your system of theology, Noah was saved without having to build an ark... Abraham was saved without a willingness to offer his son... Moses was saved even if he had enjoyed sin for a season.
> 
> I know your position on this... that God miraculously gave all these people "faith" - but that's simply not true.  Faith comes when a person hears God's word, decides to trust in it as truth, and is willing to act upon it.
> 
> I'm not going to suggest that you are dishonest... nor am I going to say you are "incredulous"... the same bible that tells me what I must do to have salvation is the same bible which warns me of arrogance and tells me to provide bible answers in a spirit of meekness.  Does your bible tell you the same thing?



I see you on one end of the grace plus works and Gem on the other end of grace only. Most believers are somewhere in between. 
But in Gem's defense, isn't is a little ironic to put certain things in the mix like baptism but not any other "works" or what ever you want to call baptism. At the very least it is something man must do, if indeed it is required. 
I believe following the New Testament Commandments are required but not baptism, so my beliefs are also ironic. I also believe in limited free will.
After reading this thread I realize I'm not as "out there" as I once thought.


----------



## hobbs27

centerpin fan said:


> Any comments on post 458?



CF, many of the men listed in post 458 believed in infant baptism...Are you advocating infant baptism for regeneration?


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> But in Gem's defense, isn't is a little ironic to put certain things in the mix like baptism but not any other "works" or what ever you want to call baptism. At the very least it is something man must do, if indeed it is required.



First, I would say that man didn't put baptism "in the mix".

Second, whether you say someone must "accept Christ", "profess Christ", "give his heart to the Lord", etc., that generally translates into "say a prayer" -- which is something you must do.  To Gem's credit, he recognizes the problem there.


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> I disagree.  As Justin Martyr said, " ... we have learned from the Apostles."


CF, do you have a picture of Justin Martyr in your church? Do you also fast for the remission of sins as Justin Martyr did?


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> If it wasn't so serious, it would be humorous. You guys keep parading your salvation by works and at the same time deny it. Incredulous at best, dishonest at worse.



In Acts 2 was Peter preaching a salvation by works Gospel?  No.
It's just your way of maligning us.

We simply feel bound by scripture.  Shouldn't we?
.


----------



## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> I see you on one end of the grace plus works and Gem on the other end of grace only. Most believers are somewhere in between.
> But in Gem's defense, isn't is a little ironic to put certain things in the mix like baptism but not any other "works" or what ever you want to call baptism. At the very least it is something man must do, if indeed it is required.
> I believe following the New Testament Commandments are required but not baptism, so my beliefs are also ironic. I also believe in limited free will.
> After reading this thread I realize I'm not as "out there" as I once thought.



Art... you and I believe the same thing - we just differ on what the "works" are.  When you say "I believe following the NT commandments are required but not baptism", you are simply saying "I draw a different line".  You are not "in between"... you're fully in the camp of "there's something a person must do".

The issue you touch boils down to one of "works".  What composes a "work"... what "works" are necessary and which ones aren't... etc.  When one reads Romans 4:1ff and James 2:14-26, there appears to be a contradiction (blatant) in NT Scripture.  In one passage, we read that Abraham was justified by his faith apart from works and in the other, that he was justified by a faith which was made complete by works.  Which one is... faith or works... Paul or James?

Since we firmly believe the bible doesn't contradict itself, we must search for a solution.  One thing which helps very greatly is to look at the book of Acts for answers - we read there of people who were saved... and looking at things they heard and did helps provide clarify on the letters.  The people in Acts 2, for instance, had faith when they asked the question of verse 37.  However, it wasn't a "saving faith" (one completed by works) until they did what Peter told them to do.  Go and look at the heroes of the OT in Hebrews 11.  Were they used as examples because they simply believed in God... or because they had a faith which was made perfect in their attempt to obey?

Being "saved by God's grace" doesn't mean we have no responsibility in the matter whatsoever.  Jesus Himself implied as much in Matthew 11:28-30 and Revelation 3:20.  In both places, people are told they must do something... "go to Him" and "open the door."  However, did I come up with this plan?  Did I originate the process of salvation?  Did I present the atonement for sins?  Or, did God do all these things?  

I'm saved by God's grace... if I try to be saved apart from God's actions, I have NO hope!  Thus, salvation is truly "from God" and "I'm saved by God's grace"... but through my faith.


----------



## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> CF, many of the men listed in post 458 believed in infant baptism...Are you advocating infant baptism for regeneration?



You're attacking the messenger and ignoring the message.  

All I'm advocating is that baptism is the "washing of rebirth" (Titus 3:5) where our sins are forgiven and we are united with Christ (Romans 6:1-5) which, coincidentally, is exactly the message of Tertullian, Justin Martyr, etc.

Why do you think you're right, and they got it all wrong?


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> CF, do you have a picture of Justin Martyr in your church? Do you also fast for the remission of sins as Justin Martyr did?



This is the equivalent of "Look -- a squirrel!"

The quotes I listed span about 300 years after the apostles, and there is remarkable unity on what they believed regarding baptism.

Why do you think you're right, and they got it all wrong?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Bama4me said:


> Art... you and I believe the same thing - we just differ on what the "works" are.  When you say "I believe following the NT commandments are required but not baptism", you are simply saying "I draw a different line".  You are not "in between"... you're fully in the camp of "there's something a person must do".
> 
> The issue you touch boils down to one of "works".  What composes a "work"... what "works" are necessary and which ones aren't... etc.  When one reads Romans 4:1ff and James 2:14-26, there appears to be a contradiction (blatant) in NT Scripture.  In one passage, we read that Abraham was justified by his faith apart from works and in the other, that he was justified by a faith which was made complete by works.  Which one is... faith or works... Paul or James?
> 
> Since we firmly believe the bible doesn't contradict itself, we must search for a solution.  One thing which helps very greatly is to look at the book of Acts for answers - we read there of people who were saved... and looking at things they heard and did helps provide clarify on the letters.  The people in Acts 2, for instance, had faith when they asked the question of verse 37.  However, it wasn't a "saving faith" (one completed by works) until they did what Peter told them to do.  Go and look at the heroes of the OT in Hebrews 11.  Were they used as examples because they simply believed in God... or because they had a faith which was made perfect in their attempt to obey?
> 
> Being "saved by God's grace" doesn't mean we have no responsibility in the matter whatsoever.  Jesus Himself implied as much in Matthew 11:28-30 and Revelation 3:20.  In both places, people are told they must do something... "go to Him" and "open the door."  However, did I come up with this plan?  Did I originate the process of salvation?  Did I present the atonement for sins?  Or, did God do all these things?
> 
> I'm saved by God's grace... if I try to be saved apart from God's actions, I have NO hope!  Thus, salvation is truly "from God" and "I'm saved by God's grace"... but through my faith.



Yeah our salvation beliefs are closely related. I think receiving salvation and keeping salvation are two different things and that is where our works come in to play.
But to me if it's anything a man must do, it is a work. Believing, faith, love, and forgiveness are works. People have trouble admitting it, as Gem points out but if it's something man must do, then they are works. Otherwise it would be all from God and we would not do anything.
Some people believe once we are save, everything from that point on is from God. 
If a person becomes a new believer one Sunday and has eternal salvation and blessed assurance "in a moment" then why in the world would he be forced to do a work the following Sunday? That's the irony that Gem and I see. How can you have it both ways? Unless the new believer isn't a Christian until the following Sunday.
And he is baptized the correct way with the correct amount of water by the correct person in Jesus name only.


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> This is the equivalent of "Look -- a squirrel!"


You evoke Justin Martyr so often, he must be hanging on your church wall. Is he? Again, do you also fast for the remission of sins, as did Justin Martyr? If not, why not? This is a fair question.[/QUOTE]


----------



## gordon 2

Ok, it is the final min. of the 14th and the last round. Rocky's face is a mashed turnip. His eyes are shut. The champion's ribs are busted so that it is painful to move both arms. Both know they are hoping for a Hail Mary punch, a miracle even. And then it happens at the 2:30 mark. And it's over. 

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7,...




1 Timothy 4:16

King James Version (KJV)


16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> Yeah our salvation beliefs are closely related. I think receiving salvation and keeping salvation are two different things and that is where our works come in to play.
> But to me if it's anything a man must do, it is a work. Believing, faith, love, and forgiveness are works. People have trouble admitting it, as Gem points out but if it's something man must do, then they are works. Otherwise it would be all from God and we would not do anything.
> Some people believe once we are save, everything from that point on is from God.
> If a person becomes a new believer one Sunday and has eternal salvation and blessed assurance "in a moment" then why in the world would he be forced to do a work the following Sunday? That's the irony that Gem and I see. How can you have it both ways? Unless the new believer isn't a Christian until the following Sunday.
> And he is baptized the correct way with the correct amount of water by the correct person in Jesus name only.



You and Gem don't look at the following verses, and others like it, the way myself and others accept Jesus' teaching.
You see it as a work, like feeding the poor.  We accept it (NOT) as a work (Correction).

Mark 16:14 Afterward He appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at the table; and He reproached them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. 

How can any word of those verses simply be regarded as unimportant?  Aren't those the words of our Lord and Savior?
How can I be accused of anything other than having a sincere desire to accept the full teachings of Christ?
.


----------



## M80

KJV Mark 16. 14- Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and I braided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15- and he said unto them, go Ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16- he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be dam n e d. 
Why didn't he not say believeth not and don't get baptized shall be dame ned


----------



## hobbs27

If I make myself believe something, is that truly faith? I still don't understand how anyone can believe faith is a work.


----------



## hobbs27

centerpin fan said:


> You're attacking the messenger and ignoring the message.
> 
> All I'm advocating is that baptism is the "washing of rebirth" (Titus 3:5) where our sins are forgiven and we are united with Christ (Romans 6:1-5) which, coincidentally, is exactly the message of Tertullian, Justin Martyr, etc.
> 
> Why do you think you're right, and they got it all wrong?



 Hasn't this battle been going on for a long time? The Anabaptist were so called because they believed as I do that only believers / saved folks...should be baptized, so they were tagged rebaptizers.

 I simply want everyone to be confident in their salvation.. I was Christened as a child in the Methodist church. Later in life I was confident that wasn't enough. I'm very confident what has been given to me now will see me through. Whatever it is that you look at as salvation...be confident the Lord is pleased with it or continue searching for an answer.


----------



## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> If I make myself believe something, is that truly faith? I still don't understand how anyone can believe faith is a work.


Only in that some believe we muster up or develop faith from within ourselves. I believe faith to be a gift of God and we are justified by faith.


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> You evoke Justin Martyr so often, he must be hanging on your church wall. Is he? Again, do you also fast for the remission of sins, as did Justin Martyr? If not, why not? This is a fair question.



Justin Martyr is not an apostle, and his writings are not inspired.  If he says something contrary to scripture, I'm not bound to defend him.  I quoted him (and others) to show what they understood about the purpose of baptism.  Obviously, their understanding differs greatly from what is often taught today.


----------



## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> I simply want everyone to be confident in their salvation.. I was Christened as a child in the Methodist church. Later in life I was confident that wasn't enough. I'm very confident what has been given to me now will see me through.



Good luck on your journey.


----------



## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> KJV Mark 16. 14- Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and I braided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15- and he said unto them, go Ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16- he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be dam n e d.
> Why didn't he not say believeth not and don't get baptized shall be dame ned



Maybe He didn't think it was necessary.  

Who does He say will be saved?  Compare that with John 3:5.


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> Justin Martyr is not an apostle, and his writings are not inspired.  If he says something contrary to scripture, I'm not bound to defend him.  I quoted him (and others) to show what they understood about the purpose of baptism.  Obviously, their understanding differs greatly from what is often taught today.


We will agree that he is not infallible. I understand your desire not to defend him. I would not defend Augustine in many areas.


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> We will agree that he is not infallible. I understand your desire not to defend him. I would not defend Augustine in many areas.


----------



## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> KJV Mark 16. 14- Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and I braided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15- and he said unto them, go Ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16- he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be dam n e d.
> Why didn't he not say believeth not and don't get baptized shall be dame ned



I have no idea.  But it doesn't change what Jesus DID say.  Why should you and I be debating whether or not to obey His statement completely?


----------



## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> KJV Mark 16. 14- Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and I braided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15- and he said unto them, go Ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16- he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be dam n e d.
> Why didn't he not say believeth not and don't get baptized shall be dame ned


Because the emphasis is not baptism, but belief. Only those with faith in Christ are to be baptized.
"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

All believers are to be baptized. It is obedience to Christ and always follows salvation. It does not save, but is a picture of our death, burial and resurrection with Christ.  
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Romans 6:3-6)


----------



## Ronnie T

Is the fact that Jesus said it good enough reason to do it?

Mark 16:14 Afterward He appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at the table; and He reproached them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. 

*Maybe it's our thinking.  Why not just do it?

20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men


----------



## Israel

There is something in the bringing of material things into submission to Christ, through obedience of faith that is beyond explanation.
We may have many speculations about the how and the why of this (I surely do), but, ultimately for whatever the unseen reasons, things material, when subjected, benefit the inner man, bring revelation of Christ, glorify God, and restore an order that is previously unseen until accomplished. I do not list the former things in order of importance...for they all seem simultaneous.

Clay taking its place before the Potter is glorious...and I thank God for the many, but particularly and eternally, for the One...who did ALL that was unnecessary for Himself...for me.


----------



## M80

Ronnie T said:


> I have no idea.  But it doesn't change what Jesus DID say.  Why should you and I be debating whether or not to obey His statement completely?



Yes sir I did obey his statement completely. I believed and I've been baptized, but like so many times its been stated by others in here that we can't take one verse and run with it. Jesus mentioned several times in the gospel "believe" and never mentioned baptism

Just got back from a revival, it was great


----------



## Artfuldodger

Believing and having faith are mental things we must do. We do start off with a measure from God. Then there's love & forgiveness.
Why are mental works different from physical works? Why isn't baptism a work just like prayer? Oops, I forgot prayer isn't physical so it's not a work. 
Can we remove mental sins like lust and hatred? I'm trying to see why sins can be mental but salvation requirements aren't.
I would like to see a list of all the mental non-works salvation requirements: believing, faith, repentance, love, forgiveness, prayer?
What are the physical works for salvation? Baptism?
It looks like salvation is more mental than physical. How does Christianity being Spiritual fit into the equation?


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> Because the emphasis is not baptism, but belief. Only those with faith in Christ are to be baptized.
> "And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
> 
> All believers are to be baptized. It is obedience to Christ and always follows salvation. It does not save, but is a picture of our death, burial and resurrection with Christ.
> "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Romans 6:3-6)



Where was Jesus made alive by the Father?  He was made alive while "buried in a tomb".  We are made alive when we are "buried" (immersed) in water... having already believed, repented, and confessed our faith.  Again, 1 Peter 3:21, Mark 16:16, and Acts 22:16 made it clear that baptism is essential for salvation.  There's a reason why the Ethiopian treasurer did not rejoice after believing... he rejoiced after being baptized (in water, not some other type if baptism).  It's because of what Christ said in Mark 16:16.


----------



## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> Yes sir I did obey his statement completely. I believed and I've been baptized, but like so many times its been stated by others in here that we can't take one verse and run with it. Jesus mentioned several times in the gospel "believe" and never mentioned baptism
> 
> Just got back from a revival, it was great


It's nice to attend a revival and have a chance to hear someone else.  Glad it was a blessing for you.

Why can't we just take this verse and run with it by incorporating it into everything else Jesus taught?  Shouldn't we?  Can we actually ignore such a command from our Lord.  He never made another statement even close to the magnitude of this one.  Nothing He said after this verse would give us cause not to teach the very thing He taught His apostles to do throughout all the world.
.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

How can we compare the requirement of prayer for salvation to the requirement of baptism for salvation?
This is a pretty basic question related to the OP. When a non believer decides he is a believer, who does he confess to? Man or God? I would think he needs to tell God. Wouldn't God already know? Do we have to confess with our mouth to men? That sounds like a work. Is that for salvation or for spreading the word?
I could imagine someone waking up in the middle of the night and realizing they are a believer. I don't really know which came first, believing or the Holy Spirit. I've felt the power of the Holy Spirit at at strange or inopportune times. Not at some religious or Church function. After feeling his presence or power, I can't really say praying or baptism is required.


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> Jesus mentioned several times in the gospel "believe" and never mentioned baptism.



Your logic isn't consistent here.  Jesus said in Matthew 11:28, "Come to Me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."  Does the fact that Jesus didn't mention belief in this passage mean we can "come to Jesus" without believing He is God's Son?  

In John 8:32 Jesus said, "You will know the truth amend the truth will set you free."  Does the fact that Jesus didn't mention belief in this setting mean that we can be set free without having belief in Him as the Son of God?

Notice the criteria Jesus used in separating the sheep (saved) from the goats (lost) in Matthew 25:34-36 - Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'  Jesus nowhere in this passage listed "belief" as a criteria for being numbered among the saved (sheep).  Does that mean belief is not essential to our salvation.

I am absolutely certain your answer is an emphatic NO!  Why, because Jesus CLEARLY stated in other places in the gospel accounts that belief is necessary for salvation... and we know that we cannot just look at one passage - we must consider EVERYTHING Jesus said to see the whole picture.

Jesus told His disciples in two accounts of the "Great Commission" that they should baptize people (Matthew 28:18-19, Mark 16:15-16).  Mark's account indicates that both belief and baptism is essential for salvation.  The FIRST time we see the gospel preached following Jesus' resurrection, people (upon believing) asked "what shall we do?"  Peter told those who believed "repent and be baptized FOR the forgiveness of sins".  

That's not coincidence... there's a reason, and Romans 6:1ff and 1 Peter 3:21 tells us God's reasoning for asking us to submit to baptism.


----------



## Artfuldodger

After reading this thread I'm not sure what is required any more. I'm ok with baptism being a reqirement. 
Now I need a refresher in the other basic requirements, spiritually, mentally, and physically.
Physically it appears baptism is the only one. Wait, I just thought of telling another person. What do I need to tell this other person?
 Mentally & Spiritually I've got to believe, and have faith. I'm not sure if I've got to tell God. Confession, is that to God or man? Repentance, is that to God or man?
How do I attain the truth or knowledge that will set me free? From the Bible or the Holy Spirit?


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> After reading this thread I'm not sure what is required any more.


Nothing from you, but all of you. Does that help?


----------



## Artfuldodger

I just Googled how many steps to salvation and came up with 4, 5, 6, & 7.
It makes me think about the Power in the Blood of Jesus. 

The truth might set us free but it appears we haven't discovered it yet. Then there are the Mysteries.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Nothing from you, but all of you. Does that help?



What is "all of me" if nothing is required of me?
How do I humble myself, give myself, submit myself, surrender myself, and become a slave?


----------



## Artfuldodger

I think I've got it; believe, repent, confess, and get baptized. Do I need to inform God of any of this?


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
> 
> How can we compare the requirement of prayer for salvation to the requirement of baptism for salvation?
> This is a pretty basic question related to the OP. When a non believer decides he is a believer, who does he confess to? Man or God? I would think he needs to tell God. Wouldn't God already know? Do we have to confess with our mouth to men? That sounds like a work. Is that for salvation or for spreading the word?
> I could imagine someone waking up in the middle of the night and realizing they are a believer. I don't really know which came first, believing or the Holy Spirit. I've felt the power of the Holy Spirit at at strange or inopportune times. Not at some religious or Church function. After feeling his presence or power, I can't really say praying or baptism is required.



Maybe you're wrong to assume Romans 10:13 is talking about prayer.  Why didn't Paul just say "go to God in prayer for salvation?"

Maybe Paul was talking about something entirely different.

The only time I recall that phrase being used in connection with an individual conversion was in Paul's conversion.  He first heard that phrase during his own conversion.  Quite a coincidence isn't it?

Paul was told: "Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord".

What are your thoughts concerning that?


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> It makes me think about the Power in the Blood of Jesus.
> .


----------



## Ronnie T

Agree.  Ultimately, it always goes back to the cross.
.


----------



## Israel

Artfuldodger said:


> What is "all of me" if nothing is required of me?
> How do I humble myself, give myself, submit myself, surrender myself, and become a slave?



That's a good question. For in the question of "how do I?" is also all the answer.
Please let me know what you find out.

I can tell you what I found out. I can't.
All I can do is confess a truth that is not I.
Jesus is Lord.


----------



## hobbs27

Question for those holding on to baptism as the way to regeneration.
 The person doing the baptizing..do they have to meet certain requirements according to scripture? Can a woman baptize folks? What if the person is found out to be a false prophet years down the road is your baptism null and void?


----------



## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> The person doing the baptizing..do they have to meet certain requirements according to scripture?



No requirements that I know of.  For obvious reasons, the baptizer is typically a minister.




hobbs27 said:


> Can a woman baptize folks? What if the person is found out to be a false prophet years down the road is your baptism null and void?



Baptism unites you with Christ, not with the person doing the baptizing.


----------



## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> Question for those holding on to baptism as the way to regeneration.
> The person doing the baptizing..do they have to meet certain requirements according to scripture? Can a woman baptize folks? What if the person is found out to be a false prophet years down the road is your baptism null and void?



It's a really good question... and I suppose it's one which has caused people a lot of doubts over the years.  There is one predominant NT case which speak to this IMO.  John 4:1-2 indicated that Jesus' disciples baptized people.  Who was among those disciples?  Judas.  Yet, you never see in Scripture any of the people Judas baptized needing any special attention or "fixes" after his death.  Like CP says, it's not about the one baptizing (at least his/her faithfulness), it's about God and the one being baptized.  

I suppose the same thing would be true regarding eating the Lord's Supper.  If the person serving it was an unfaithful Christian, would that affect your observance and make it unacceptable to God?  I'm sure none of us would say that conclusion would be warranted.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> Maybe you're wrong to assume Romans 10:13 is talking about prayer.  Why didn't Paul just say "go to God in prayer for salvation?"
> 
> Maybe Paul was talking about something entirely different.
> 
> The only time I recall that phrase being used in connection with an individual conversion was in Paul's conversion.  He first heard that phrase during his own conversion.  Quite a coincidence isn't it?
> 
> Paul was told: "Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord".
> 
> What are your thoughts concerning that?



You might be right. So how does one call on the name of the lord when he suddenly believes? 
Seriously, I'm not even sure what I would tell a person who came up to me and said, I want to be a Christian or I want to accept Jesus as my savior. What does he need to do, say, think? Other than get baptized? I know he needs to believe, repent, and confess but what does he physically, mentally, and spiritually need to do to get the process rolling? Does he ask Jesus or tell a human? Is it all just a spiritual process once he believes with no input from himself? I'm looking for the basic actions.


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## gemcgrew

Israel said:


> That's a good question. For in the question of "how do I?" is also all the answer.
> Please let me know what you find out.
> 
> I can tell you what I found out. I can't.
> All I can do is confess a truth that is not I.
> Jesus is Lord.



The simplicity that is in Christ. We make it so difficult when we look in the wrong place.


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## hobbs27

Bama4me said:


> It's a really good question... and I suppose it's one which has caused people a lot of doubts over the years.  There is one predominant NT case which speak to this IMO.  John 4:1-2 indicated that Jesus' disciples baptized people.  Who was among those disciples?  Judas.  Yet, you never see in Scripture any of the people Judas baptized needing any special attention or "fixes" after his death.  Like CP says, it's not about the one baptizing (at least his/her faithfulness), it's about God and the one being baptized.
> 
> I suppose the same thing would be true regarding eating the Lord's Supper.  If the person serving it was an unfaithful Christian, would that affect your observance and make it unacceptable to God?  I'm sure none of us would say that conclusion would be warranted.



I appreciate you and CF answering. Just so I got this straight according to what you know to be true in scripture. 
A soldier in battle over in Afghanistan could find faith in Christ but his salvation would not be complete until he is baptized. So all he has around him is Muslims, he could instruct a Muslim on what to say and what to do in his baptism and once that was done he would have salvation being baptized by a Muslim?


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> You might be right. So how does one call on the name of the lord when he suddenly believes?
> Seriously, I'm not even sure what I would tell a person who came up to me and said, I want to be a Christian or I want to accept Jesus as my savior. What does he need to do, say, think? Other than get baptized? I know he needs to believe, repent, and confess but what does he physically, mentally, and spiritually need to do to get the process rolling? Does he ask Jesus or tell a human? Is it all just a spiritual process once he believes with no input from himself? I'm looking for the basic actions.


What makes you think that the "process" is not complete?


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## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> Question for those holding on to baptism as the way to regeneration.
> The person doing the baptizing..do they have to meet certain requirements according to scripture? Can a woman baptize folks? What if the person is found out to be a false prophet years down the road is your baptism null and void?



Dear friend, we hold onto this lame idea of baptism simply because the resurrected Jesus commanded us to hold on to it.  And I'll let you answer all the "what if's".

Mark 16:14 Afterward He appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at the table; and He reproached them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.


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## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> I appreciate you and CF answering. Just so I got this straight according to what you know to be true in scripture.
> A soldier in battle over in Afghanistan could find faith in Christ but his salvation would not be complete until he is baptized. So all he has around him is Muslims, he could instruct a Muslim on what to say and what to do in his baptism and once that was done he would have salvation being baptized by a Muslim?



What if he found "faith in Christ" by reading a Koran?  Jesus is mentioned in the Koran, so it's not unthinkable.  (BTW, I found "faith in Christ" by reading Mormon literature.  Does that count?)

As bama noted earlier, you can run "what if" scenarios until the cows come home.  What if space aliens invaded and confiscated all liquids excepts tartar sauce?  Can you be baptized in tartar sauce?  How about soy sauce?


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## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> I appreciate you and CF answering. Just so I got this straight according to what you know to be true in scripture.
> A soldier in battle over in Afghanistan could find faith in Christ but his salvation would not be complete until he is baptized. So all he has around him is Muslims, he could instruct a Muslim on what to say and what to do in his baptism and once that was done he would have salvation being baptized by a Muslim?



From what you know of the scripture, what do you believe the answer to your question is?
.


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## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> I appreciate you and CF answering. Just so I got this straight according to what you know to be true in scripture.
> A soldier in battle over in Afghanistan could find faith in Christ but his salvation would not be complete until he is baptized. So all he has around him is Muslims, he could instruct a Muslim on what to say and what to do in his baptism and once that was done he would have salvation being baptized by a Muslim?



The person baptizing must do it by the authority of Christ (in the name of Jesus is the way Peter put it in Acts 2)... which I really doubt any Muslin would do.  All we have to go on here is what Scripture reveals... search the book of Acts and see who did the baptizing and what you can learn.

If you're trying to pick holes with the "what if" game, the same thing is going to be able to be done regarding belief alone.  Implication demands Judas taught people when the Lord sent apostles out on the Limited Commission.  Did a person believing in Jesus due to Judas' message somehow have an "inferior conversion" (according to your theology) and have to hear a message from a faithful apostle?  What can be said on the "what if's" regarding baptism is going to be able to be said also when it comes to belief alone.


----------



## M80

Bama4me said:


> The person baptizing must do it by the authority of Christ (in the name of Jesus is the way Peter put it in Acts 2)... which I really doubt any Muslin would do.  All we have to go on here is what Scripture reveals... search the book of Acts and see who did the baptizing and what you can learn.
> 
> If you're trying to pick holes with the "what if" game, the same thing is going to be able to be done regarding belief alone.  Implication demands Judas taught people when the Lord sent apostles out on the Limited Commission.  Did a person believing in Jesus due to Judas' message somehow have an "inferior conversion" (according to your theology) and have to hear a message from a faithful apostle?  What can be said on the "what if's" regarding baptism is going to be able to be said also when it comes to belief alone.



Wrong, its not the person but the spirit that does the drawing. This what if stuff is important. If you was stranded on an island and a bible washes up. Your lost, read it with all the time on your hand and The Lord convicts you. Then The Father draws you to his son and that person believes that Jesus died for him and he believes, that person will be saved. I guess he could try to baptize his self, but he would be saved before he hits any water. What ifs are in the equation


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## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> This what if stuff is important.



OK.

"What if" you were transported back in time and could talk to Tertullian, Cyprian, Justin Martyr, Clement, etc.?  What would you tell them when they told you "no one can attain salvation without Baptism"?


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## M80

centerpin fan said:


> OK.
> 
> "What if" you were transported back in time and could talk to Tertullian, Cyprian, Justin Martyr, Clement, etc.?  What would you tell them when they told you "no one can attain salvation without Baptism"?



That's funny right there. At least my scenario could actually happen and I don't know these men, but I don't think they are inspired men as in the bible, so everyone has opinions, but you'll remember what Ronnie and jmharris said about that


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> "What if" you were transported back in time and could talk to Tertullian, Cyprian, Justin Martyr, Clement, etc.?  What would you tell them when they told you "no one can attain salvation without Baptism"?


I would tell them "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

at·tain
verb
    1. succeed in achieving (something that one desires and has worked for).


----------



## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> Wrong, its not the person but the spirit that does the drawing. This what if stuff is important. If you was stranded on an island and a bible washes up. Your lost, read it with all the time on your hand and The Lord convicts you. Then The Father draws you to his son and that person believes that Jesus died for him and he believes, that person will be saved. I guess he could try to baptize his self, but he would be saved before he hits any water. What ifs are in the equation



So I guess Jesus really messed up when He included this in the great commission.  Finally, someone has proven that God's son made a mistake.

How would you rewrite Mark 16 so that it reads properly?
.


----------



## Ronnie T

What if....... there was a man out in the desert and the Holy Spirit sent a man (Philip) to teach him the Gospel, and Philip left the man before he was even baptized?

What if...... God told Noah he was going to save him from the flood because of his righteousness and his faith, but then Noah didn't build the ark, since God had already told him he was being saved through his faith?  What if?


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> Wrong, its not the person but the spirit that does the drawing. This what if stuff is important. If you was stranded on an island and a bible washes up. Your lost, read it with all the time on your hand and The Lord convicts you. Then The Father draws you to his son and that person believes that Jesus died for him and he believes, that person will be saved. I guess he could try to baptize his self, but he would be saved before he hits any water. What ifs are in the equation



Who said anything about someone being the one who draws a person?  It's the word of God (given by the Holy Spirit) that draws a person.  The issue I addressed was the medium through which a message comes... the same is true when it comes to being baptized.

You really think the "desert island scenario" is likely to occur?  One where a bible (of all books) washes up on the shore and someone is able to read it?  I suppose if this supposed person does read Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, and 1 Peter 3:21 he would simply say "I don't need to be baptized?"  

Come now... let's be real here.  Where have many people today heard what they have about baptism... from people or from doing their own investigation of the word of God?  I'm not necessarily referring to anyone in this discussion, but I know for fact that many people base their beliefs on what they hear someone else say... not by reading/studying on their own.


----------



## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> ... I don't know these men, but I don't think they are inspired men as in the bible, so everyone has opinions ...




So, for the first 300 or so years after the apostles died, all these guys shared the exact same opinion of John 3:5 -- but got it completely wrong.  Not only did they get it wrong, but nobody called them on it.  Then, at some point in the future, somebody got it right again and started teaching that baptism was not essential?




THE EPISTLE OF BARNABAS (c. A.D. 70)
Now let us see if the Lord has been at any pains to give us a foreshadowing of the waters of Baptism and of the cross. Regarding the former, we have the evidence of Scripture that Israel would refuse to accept the washing which confers the remission of sins and would set up a substitution of their own instead [Jer 22:13; Isa 16:1-2; 33:16-18; Psalm 1:3-6]. Observe there how he describes both the water and the cross in the same figure. His meaning is, "Blessed are those who go down into the water with their hopes set on the cross." Here he is saying that after we have stepped down into the water, burdened with sin and defilement, we come up out of it bearing fruit, with reverence in our hearts and the hope of Jesus in our souls. (11:1-10)

THE SHEPHERD OF HERMAS (c. A.D. 140)
"I have heard, sir," said I, "from some teachers, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins." He said to me, "You have heard rightly, for so it is." (The Shepherd 4:3:1-2) 
They had need [the Shepherd said] to come up through the water, so that they might be made alive; for they could not otherwise enter into the kingdom of God, except by putting away the mortality of their former life. These also, then, who had fallen asleep, received the seal of the Son of God, and entered into the kingdom of God. For, [he said,] before a man bears the name of the Son of God, he is dead. But when he receives the seal, he puts mortality aside and again receives life. The seal, therefore, is the water. They go down into the water dead [in sin], and come out of it alive. (ibid 9:16:2-4)

ST. JUSTIN MARTYR (inter A.D. 148-155)
Whoever is convinced and believes that what they are taught and told by us is the truth, and professes to be able to live accordingly, is instructed to pray and to beseech God in fasting for the remission of their former sins, while we pray and fast with them. Then they are led by us to a place where there is water; and there they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: In the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they receive the washing with water. For Christ said, "Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." ...The reason for doing this, we have learned from the Apostles. (The First Apology 61)

ST. THEOPHILUS OF ANTIOCH (c. A.D. 181)
Moreover, those things which were created from the waters were blessed by God, so that this might also be a sign that men would at a future time receive repentance and remission of sins through water and the bath of regeneration -- all who proceed to the truth and are born again and receive a blessing from God. (To Autolycus 2:16)

ST. IRENAEUS (c. A.D. 190)
"And [Naaman] dipped himself...seven times in the Jordan" [2 Kings 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: "Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Fragment 34)

TERTULLIAN (inter A.D. 200-206)
A treatise on our sacrament of water, by which the sins of our earlier blindness are washed away and we are released for eternal life will not be superfluous.....taking away death by the washing away of sins. The guilt being removed, the penalty, of course, is also removed.....Baptism is itself a corporal act by which we are plunged in water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from sins. (On Baptism 1:1; 5:6; 7:2)
...no one can attain salvation without Baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says: "Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life." (On Baptism 12:1)

ST. CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA (ante A.D. 202)
When we are baptized, we are enlightened. Being enlightened, we are adopted as sons. Adopted as sons, we are made perfect. Made perfect, we become immortal...."and sons all of the Most High" [Psalm 82:6]. This work is variously called grace, illumination, perfection, and washing. It is a washing by which we are cleansed of sins; a gift of grace by which the punishments due our sins are remitted; an illumination by which we behold that holy light of salvation -- that is, by which we see God clearly; and we call that perfection which leaves nothing lacking. Indeed, if a man know God, what more does he need? Certainly it were out of place to call that which is not complete a true gift of God's grace. Because God is perfect, the gifts He bestows are perfect. (The Instructor of Children 1:6:26:1)

RECOGNITIONS OF CLEMENT (c. A.D. 221)
But you will perhaps say, "What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?" In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so ...you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true Prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: "Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water....he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Recognitions 6:9)

ST. CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE (c. 200 - 258 A.D.)
But afterwards, when the stain of my past life had been washed away by means of the water of re-birth, a light from above poured itself upon my chastened and now pure heart; afterwards through the Spirit which is breathed from heaven, a second birth made of me a new man... Thus it had to be acknowledged that what was of the earth and was born of the flesh and had lived submissive to sins, had now begun to be of God, inasmuch as the Holy Spirit was animating it. (To Donatus 4)
[When] they receive also the Baptism of the Church...then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God...since it is written, "Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Letters 71[72]:1)
[It] behooves those to be baptized...so that they are prepared, in the lawful and true and only Baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God...because it is written, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Letters 72[73]:21)

ST. CYRIL OF JERUSALEM (c. A.D. 350)
If any man does not receive Baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who, even without water, will receive the kingdom....for the Savior calls martyrdom a Baptism (cf. Mark 10:38) ...Bearing your sins, you go down into the water; but the calling down of grace seals your soul and does not permit that you afterwards be swallowed up by the fearsome dragon. You go down dead in your sins, and come up made alive in righteousness. (Catechetical Lectures 3:10,12)
Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul....When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Holy Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter.
And He says, "Unless a man be born again" -- and He adds the words "of water and of the Spirit" -- "he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven.
A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it.

ST. AMBROSE OF MILAN (c. A.D. 333 - 397)
The Lord was baptized, not to be cleansed Himself but to cleanse the waters, so that those waters, cleansed by the flesh of Christ which knew no sin, might have the power of Baptism. Whoever comes, therefore, to the washing of Christ lays aside his sins. (Commentary on the Gospel of Luke 2:83)
The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ's blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in Baptism -- Col 2:11-13] so that he can be saved...for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of Baptism...."Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (On Abraham 2:11:79,84)
You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in Baptism are one: water, blood and the Spirit [1 John 5:8]: and if you withdraw any one of these, the sacrament of Baptism is not valid. For what is the water without the cross of Christ? A common element with no sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water: for "unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (On the Mysteries 4:20)


----------



## M80

Ronnie T said:


> So I guess Jesus really messed up when He included this in the great commission.  Finally, someone has proven that God's son made a mistake.
> 
> How would you rewrite Mark 16 so that it reads properly?
> .



Easy now, I never said that, your putting words in my mouth, I believe the bible is the inspired word of god(god breathed). I believe the men where a pen for god to write through, so when Ephesians 2:8 says for by grace are you saved through faith and you say we have to be baptized are you saying god made a mistake

Could The Lord meant in Mark 16 believe and be baptized mean baptism of the Holy Spirit in which where we are submerged in his blood to cleanse us


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## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> Easy now, I never said that, your putting words in my mouth, I believe the bible is the inspired word of god(god breathed). I believe the men where a pen for god to write through, so when Ephesians 2:8 says for by grace are you saved through faith and you say we have to be baptized are you saying god made a mistake



Who said the following?

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved."

"Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." 




mwilliams80 said:


> Could The Lord meant in Mark 16 believe and be baptized mean baptism of the Holy Spirit in which where we are submerged in his blood to cleanse us



There is ONE baptism.


----------



## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> Easy now, I never said that, your putting words in my mouth, I believe the bible is the inspired word of god(god breathed). I believe the men where a pen for god to write through, so when Ephesians 2:8 says for by grace are you saved through faith and you say we have to be baptized are you saying god made a mistake
> 
> Could The Lord meant in Mark 16 believe and be baptized mean baptism of the Holy Spirit in which where we are submerged in his blood to cleanse us



No.  The baptism Jesus speaks of is the baptism into His name (Matt 28:19).
.


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## Ronnie T

Peter draws a parallel between Noah being saved from the flood, and our baptism.

Again, I ask, what if Noah's faith saved him, but he decided not to build the ark as God commanded?  Would he really have had faith?
Isn't that the parallel Peter is teaching us?


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> I would tell them "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
> 
> at·tain
> verb
> 1. succeed in achieving (something that one desires and has worked for).



"Works" in context of discussions in the New Testament pertaining to the Law of Moses versus the Law of Christ doesn't just refer to any types of "deeds" - it often refers to those "deeds" mandated in the Law of Moses.

As an example, Romans 3:20 states, "For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin."  In Ephesians 2, the issue of Jews/Gentiles and the Law of Moses was very much a part of the discussion.  Thus, an objective look at the way "works" is used in this type of setting demands that a person acknowledge that Paul could have been referring to the "works" of the Law of Moses in 2:9.  That's one possibility as to the meaning of the text.

Another is that Paul is referring to "works" apart from faith.  IF a person tried to come up with their own way to come to God and be saved, that's "work" apart from faith... because God's word when heard/accepted leads to faith.  However, "works" that originate with man (not God), cannot and will not save a person.  IMO, this is the better explanation.

Acts 2 gives us a very good illustration.  After hearing Peter's message, people believed... or else they wouldn't have asked "what shall we do?"  After Peter told them to repent and be baptized - at which point they would be saved.  After telling them this, he said "save yourselves from this this crooked generation" (2:40).  Notice, that's something they were supposed to do THEMSELVES.  Peter didn't say, "God will do everything for you"... he said "save yourselves!"

Any way you cut it, that's "works".  However, it wasn't the "works" which originated with man... the command came straight from God.  Peter didn't say "do whatever you want to do" - that would be "works" determined by man.  Those things that Peter commanded came straight from God - no person invented the plan or had the authority to establish an effective plan... only God could do that.  IF the people on the day of Pentecost had to do something, then they were saved by a faith which was made perfect through works... just as James 2:14ff fully explains.


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## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> Could The Lord meant in Mark 16 believe and be baptized mean baptism of the Holy Spirit in which where we are submerged in his blood to cleanse us



Could you explain how this worked in Acts 8?

Acts 8:12 - "But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women."

Acts 8:14-16 - "Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, for He had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."


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## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> "Works" in context of discussions in the New Testament pertaining to the Law of Moses versus the Law of Christ doesn't just refer to any types of "deeds" - it often refers to those "deeds" mandated in the Law of Moses.
> 
> As an example, Romans 3:20 states, "For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin."  In Ephesians 2, the issue of Jews/Gentiles and the Law of Moses was very much a part of the discussion.  Thus, an objective look at the way "works" is used in this type of setting demands that a person acknowledge that Paul could have been referring to the "works" of the Law of Moses in 2:9.  That's one possibility as to the meaning of the text.
> 
> Another is that Paul is referring to "works" apart from faith.  IF a person tried to come up with their own way to come to God and be saved, that's "work" apart from faith... because God's word when heard/accepted leads to faith.  However, "works" that originate with man (not God), cannot and will not save a person.  IMO, this is the better explanation.
> 
> Acts 2 gives us a very good illustration.  After hearing Peter's message, people believed... or else they wouldn't have asked "what shall we do?"  After Peter told them to repent and be baptized - at which point they would be saved.  After telling them this, he said "save yourselves from this this crooked generation" (2:40).  Notice, that's something they were supposed to do THEMSELVES.  Peter didn't say, "God will do everything for you"... he said "save yourselves!"
> 
> Any way you cut it, that's "works".  However, it wasn't the "works" which originated with man... the command came straight from God.  Peter didn't say "do whatever you want to do" - that would be "works" determined by man.  Those things that Peter commanded came straight from God - no person invented the plan or had the authority to establish an effective plan... only God could do that.  IF the people on the day of Pentecost had to do something, then they were saved by a faith which was made perfect through works... just as James 2:14ff fully explains.


Bama, no matter how hard you guys try to disguise it, it is out in the open for all to see. You can not tell me that I physically have to do something, in order to attain something, and it not be works.

I am not born again because I believed, I believe because I am born again. I am not born again because I was baptized, I was baptized because I was born again.

"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."


----------



## ecole

I have a question to the position that baptism is an action we must take to be saved. It may sound like I am being sarcastic, I am not trying to be. 
I pastor a church that does not have a baptistery. Sorry its a what if question. If a person comes and hears the word and comes to the alter repenting of there sins and and confessing faith in the Jesus Christ and his death on the cross for sin. Am I to tell this person to hold on we have got to find the nearest pond and get you baptized before you will be save. And just maybe the sermon I just preached was John 3:16 or Eph 2: 8-9.

And For the record I Am not dismissing the command of our Lord to be baptized. I believe were are to be baptized as soon as possible in accordance with the Lords command. And anyone who refuses to do so will have to answer to the Lord as to why they refused to obey his command. The issue is that the whole of scripture is salvation is by faith and faith alone. We as Abraham believed God, and it is imputed unto him for righteousness. Then, as James addressed in James 2, evidence of true saving faith is our works.


----------



## centerpin fan

ecole said:


> I pastor a church that does not have a baptistery.



Swimming pool, lake, river.


----------



## centerpin fan

ecole said:


> And just maybe the sermon I just preached was John 3:16 ...



Back up eleven verses.


----------



## ecole

You did not answer my question.


----------



## centerpin fan

I think the whole issue boils down to:  is anything physical we do a "work"?

I say no.  Naaman dipped seven times in the river.  By doing that, he didn't "earn" his healing.  He just obeyed God.


----------



## centerpin fan

ecole said:


> Am I to tell this person to hold on we have got to find the nearest pond and get you baptized before you will be save.



Sorry, I missed it.

Yes.

Is there any NT passage where a convert was told to get baptized or they "will have to answer to the Lord as to why they refused to obey his command"?


----------



## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> From what you know of the scripture, what do you believe the answer to your question is?
> .



From what I know of scripture I believe that a saved person should seek the churchs help in being baptized as soon as that person can, not for salvation but as an ordinance. A physical ceremony to show the world what has spiritually taken place between the individual and God.

With that said, I believe the church has a responsibility to perform the ceremony as to please God using an ordained minister to perform the ceremony.


----------



## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> A physical ceremony to show the world what has spiritually taken place between the individual and God.



But where is that taught anywhere in scripture?


----------



## ecole

Ok, I just want to be clear on what is  believed. Its hard to keep up and for everyone to fully explain their position on a forum.


----------



## centerpin fan

ecole said:


> Ok, I just want to be clear on what is  believed. Its hard to keep up and for everyone to fully explain their position on a forum.



Understood.  It's a long thread.


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> I think the whole issue boils down to:  is anything physical we do a "work"?
> 
> I say no.  Naaman dipped seven times in the river.  By doing that, he didn't "earn" his healing.  He just obeyed God.


What preceded his obedience? Why just Naaman?

"And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian."


----------



## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> With that said, I believe the church has a responsibility to perform the ceremony as to please God using an ordained minister to perform the ceremony.


Why an ordained minister? Are not Christians priest in Christ? Just curious of your biblical basis for this.


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> What preceded his obedience?



I dunno.  He got mad.  Am I missing something?

I can hear the "what ifs" now, though:

What if he only dipped five times?

What if he was in the middle of dip #7, and he had a heart attack and died?

What if he dipped three times and a crocodile ate him?


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> Just curious of your biblical basis for this.



The same could be said of many of the posts in this thread.


----------



## hummerpoo

I understand “works”, in scriptural terms, to be any thought, word, or deed by which a man seeks to ingratiate God.
Only God can separate our works from our obedience.
(I pray that He will share that knowledge with each of us.)
Therefore, anything by which we attempt to be justified before God will fail.  That's why it is grace alone.


----------



## hobbs27

gemcgrew said:


> Why an ordained minister? Are not Christians priest in Christ? Just curious of your biblical basis for this.



I think it falls on the responsibility of the church, not from a biblical basis. Biblically, sure any saved person should be able to do it. I just believe the church chooses the ordained man of God because he holds the most responsibility to God for the actions of the church.IMO


----------



## hobbs27

centerpin fan said:


> But where is that taught anywhere in scripture?



From Genesis to Revelations.. Depends on how you interpret it.


----------



## ecole

Is there any NT passage where a convert was told to get baptized or they "will have to answer to the Lord as to why they refused to obey his command"? 

Romans 14: 12  So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Baptism is a command from the Lord, So if we refuse his command will we not give an account of himself to God concerning this?


----------



## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> From Genesis to Revelations.. Depends on how you interpret it.



How about a verse?


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> I dunno.  He got mad.  Am I missing something?


Not necessarily. We were discussing works, salvation and baptism. You brought up Naaman, so I thought you were showing a relation to works, salvation and baptism.


----------



## centerpin fan

Geez, Louise, we've hit twelve pages.


----------



## gemcgrew

hummerpoo said:


> I understand “works”, in scriptural terms, to be any thought, word, or deed by which a man seeks to ingratiate God.
> Only God can separate our works from our obedience.
> (I pray that He will share that knowledge with each of us.)
> Therefore, anything by which we attempt to be justified before God will fail.  That's why it is grace alone.


----------



## centerpin fan

ecole said:


> Romans 14: 12  So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.



Baptism is not mentioned in that passage.  Baptism is only mentioned once in Romans -- chapter 6.  




ecole said:


> Baptism is a command from the Lord ...



Agreed.  It washes our sins away and unites us with Christ.


----------



## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> I think it falls on the responsibility of the church, not from a biblical basis.


That would trouble me.


hobbs27 said:


> Biblically, sure any saved person should be able to do it. I just believe the church chooses the ordained man of God because he holds the most responsibility to God for the actions of the church.IMO


I think that promotes an elite class of believers.


----------



## ecole

II Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Does these verse have to specify every thing that we will have to give an account for?

What was Jesus sinless blood shed for?


----------



## hobbs27

centerpin fan said:


> How about a verse?



http://bible-truth.org/baptism.htm

       "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures."(1 Corinthians 15:1 4) 

          Being immersed in water pictures the death of Jesus Christ dying for our sins. Being raised from the water is portrayal of Jesus' resurrection in which He conquered sin and death. Thus, being baptized by immersion the believer visually shows the spiritual death, burial, and resurrection of the believer's life. Baptism emphasizes to the new believer, and to those who witness the baptism, that as a Christian and child of God the Christian now is to live a godly life, resisting sin, and not giving it place in their lives.


          "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." (Romans 6:1-4) 

           Baptism always follows belief in Jesus Christ as one's Savior and baptism is not necessary for a person to be saved and born again. It is not an act that one does to obtain salvation and no one in the New Testament was baptized who did not first believe and put their faith in Jesus Christ. After a person is saved, as the New Testament plainly shows, they then were baptized. The Bible does not refer to baptism as a sacrament which has any saving properties, or as a part of salvation. For more information that explains why baptism is not necessary for salvation please read the article at http://bible truth.org/BaptismNotNecessary.html. 

           Baptism by immersion beautifully pictures the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. (Romans 6:3-4) Putting a person under the water strikingly emphasizes the burial of Christ, being raised out of the water symbolizes Christ's resurrection and the believer's new life in Christ. 

          "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Corinthians 5:17) 

          In Romans 6:4, God accentuates the burial when it says, "therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death." Baptism is a visual testimonial that our sins are forgiven by symbolizing they are buried with the Lord after he suffered and died for our sins on the Cross. As Romans 6:2, states the believer is dead to sin. Colossians adds that believers are alive unto Christ with God. "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God." (Col. 3:3)


----------



## hobbs27

gemcgrew said:


> That would trouble me.
> 
> I think that promotes an elite class of believers.



I dont look at it as elite. Some people call Pastors and deacons leaders of the church, I do sometimes without thinking....but truth is they are servants to the church, not elitist.. I need to get off here cause I got too much going on in real life, but I do think there is scripture to back up that those chosen to serve the church face a harder judgement...ie is held more accountable.


----------



## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> I dont look at it as elite. Some people call Pastors and deacons leaders of the church, I do sometimes without thinking....but truth is they are servants to the church, not elitist.. I need to get off here cause I got too much going on in real life, but I do think there is scripture to back up that those chosen to serve the church face a harder judgement...ie is held more accountable.


Understood and hurry back.


----------



## M80

Hey all. Please pray for my son. He broke his arm and we are at Scottish rite. They are probably going to have to do surgery. I know this isn't prayer section but I need y'all


----------



## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> Hey all. Please pray for my son. He broke his arm and we are at Scottish rite. They are probably going to have to do surgery. I know this isn't prayer section but I need y'all



Prayer said.  We're awaiting an update from you.


----------



## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> I dont look at it as elite. Some people call Pastors and deacons leaders of the church, I do sometimes without thinking....but truth is they are servants to the church, not elitist.. I need to get off here cause I got too much going on in real life, but I do think there is scripture to back up that those chosen to serve the church face a harder judgement...ie is held more accountable.



That is why I accept everything the Bible says about our  glorious salvation, given to us through our faith in our resurrected Lord.
That is also why I will not teach baptism to any lesser degree than Christ presented it to us.

15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved

1.  A directive from the resurrected Christ.
2.  His statement of purpose to His apostles.
3.  An in context statement... spoken concerning salvation for unbelievers.
4.  Jesus' statement is clear and concise.

For me, it'll always be a part of God's grace and mercy.
It's my responsibility, to Christ and to myself.
.


----------



## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> Hey all. Please pray for my son. He broke his arm and we are at Scottish rite. They are probably going to have to do surgery. I know this isn't prayer section but I need y'all


Will do. Watching your child suffer is a difficult thing for sure.


----------



## Israel

If I glean anything by the example of Jesus, the words of Jesus the life of Jesus it is this: He submitted in the fear of God to whomever he was directed by God.
Who is "fit" to baptize anyone...but the Lord?
John knew this, confessed this...and yet the Lord's own word prevailed:

Mat_3:15  And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 

Is not the testimony of righteousness not in our worthiness at all, but the faith in God, of the son of God?

Jesus manifested perfectly that man, weak man, perfidious man, even faithless man and opposing man...cannot thwart the will of God. All these things...viewed individually are not commended...and yet the plan of God is so large, the will of God so ineffable...it absolutely accounts for them all...and is able...even to include them all in its execution.

Man boasts when faced with the Lord of Glory in his weakness "don't you know I have authority to kill you or let you go?" (I have authority to receive you or reject you...)

Essentially I hear Jesus say: no matter to me at all what you do with me, I've already placed myself in the hands of the one who is above all...even the one from whom you will eventually see...all authority comes.

If God sends you...Ananais... to a christian killer...go.

If God sends you, the man who will testify before Kings as a chosen vessel, a meek brother to baptize you...receive it...and have sight restored.

"and when he the Holy Spirit comes he will convict the world of righteousness...sin...and judgment.
Righteousness...because I go to the Father and you see me no more..."

The righteousness of faith is left with nothing in this world to endorse it...no reasonings will show it, no papers or diplomas will ensure it (to you, that you are manifestly equipped to serve...or be served)...and not a bit of understanding of "why" is needed to be expressed or can be expressed to satisfy a demand for accountability. 
Appeals are answered...probing demands for our agreements...are not. God does what he does without excuse.

Pilate said "I have written what I have written" 
Iēsus Nazarēnus Rēx Iūdaeōrum

Actually he couldn't do otherwise.

Caiaphas prophesied. He couldn't restrain it.


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> Bama, no matter how hard you guys try to disguise it, it is out in the open for all to see. You can not tell me that I physically have to do something, in order to attain something, and it not be works.
> 
> I am not born again because I believed, I believe because I am born again. I am not born again because I was baptized, I was baptized because I was born again.
> 
> "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."



Being born again IS baptism - and no one is trying to disguise anything.  I fully believe people have to do something to accept God's grace.  I've used this illustration before, but I'll say it again here.

If a millionaire in your area told you he would give you a million dollars, but that you had to come by his residence to pick it up, have you (being that you had to do something to receive it) "earned" that gift. Could you ever boast about anything YOU did in the matter - absolutely not!  The gift originated with the donor and He set forth the parameters by which the gift was received - as he had the natural "right" to do.  Complying with his wishes to receive it also would not make the man "indebted" to you in any way - any way you cut it, it's a gift.

According to what you say, God gives us salvation without us doing the slightest thing - an idea that doesn't stand the test of looking at the examples in Acts.


----------



## M80

Thanks for the prayers. His arm was bad out of socket with a small fracture. We leave when he wakes. Now where were we with this discussion


----------



## Artfuldodger

Bama4me said:


> Being born again IS baptism - and no one is trying to disguise anything.  I fully believe people have to do something to accept God's grace.  I've used this illustration before, but I'll say it again here.
> 
> If a millionaire in your area told you he would give you a million dollars, but that you had to come by his residence to pick it up, have you (being that you had to do something to receive it) "earned" that gift. Could you ever boast about anything YOU did in the matter - absolutely not!  The gift originated with the donor and He set forth the parameters by which the gift was received - as he had the natural "right" to do.  Complying with his wishes to receive it also would not make the man "indebted" to you in any way - any way you cut it, it's a gift.
> 
> According to what you say, God gives us salvation without us doing the slightest thing - an idea that doesn't stand the test of looking at the examples in Acts.



If the millionaire gave you the money but you had to drive over and get it, you've already done something to receive the gift. Now if the millionaire said you must tell the world about the gift, it's something else you must do. The millionaire might wish you talked to him daily. The millionaire might want you to serve or worship him daily. The millionaire might want you to give the money he gave you away. 
We can't say God doesn't require us to do works. I don't have a problem with this belief. I would have to agree that if it's anything we must do it is a work.


----------



## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> From what I know of scripture I believe that a saved person should seek the churchs help in being baptized as soon as that person can, not for salvation but as an ordinance. A physical ceremony to show the world what has spiritually taken place between the individual and God.
> 
> With that said, I believe the church has a responsibility to perform the ceremony as to please God using an ordained minister to perform the ceremony.



How do you explain the wording of Acts 2:38 and Acts 22:16 then?  To the three thousand and Saul, was it just an "ordinance"?  Regarding the ordained minister, you find ordinary men preaching and converting people in the book of Acts - not just apostles.


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> Thanks for the prayers. His arm was bad out of socket with a small fracture. We leave when he wakes. Now where were we with this discussion



  Great to hear!  Hope recovery goes well.


----------



## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> If the millionaire gave you the money but you had to drive over and get it, you've already done something to receive the gift. Now if the millionaire said you must tell the world about the gift, it's something else you must do. The millionaire might wish you talked to him daily. The millionaire might want you to serve or worship him daily. The millionaire might want you to give the money he gave you away.
> We can't say God doesn't require us to do works. I don't have a problem with this belief. I would have to agree that if it's anything we must do it is a work.





hummerpoo said:


> I understand “works”, in scriptural terms, to be any thought, word, or deed by which a man seeks to ingratiate God.
> Only God can separate our works from our obedience.
> (I pray that He will share that knowledge with each of us.)
> Therefore, anything by which we attempt to be justified before God will fail.  That's why it is grace alone.



I think hummer hits the nail on the head with this first statement.  If we simply comply (submit) with what God has set forth as HIS requirements to be saved, God isn't "indebted" to us - it's HIS plan, HIS gift, etc.

The things Art mentions are what some on this thread have referenced - works which are produced from the heart of one who is grateful to have received the gift.  Titus 2:11-14 says it very eloquently.


----------



## Israel

Bama4me said:


> I think hummer hits the nail on the head with this first statement.  If we simply comply (submit) with what God has set forth as HIS requirements to be saved, God isn't "indebted" to us - it's HIS plan, HIS gift, etc.
> 
> The things Art mentions are what some on this thread have referenced - works which are produced from the heart of one who is grateful to have received the gift.  Titus 2:11-14 says it very eloquently.



Someday...when we are real men, and words are done, when light is all that's seen, when we laugh over our previous screams at a mouse's approach...and we see Hummer's words..."ingratiate God" as hilariously true...because we finally recognize that's all we've ever done with anybody...even wives, children, mothers fathers..."deals for love" "deals to remove scowls" "deals to place smiles" "deals to keep smiles from dimming" "deals to see ourselves a certain way"

and in the beholding of the eternal smile on the face of one...seen there by another, not us, sent precisely for our beholding...Yes, yes...bread and wine, bread and wine, bread and wine, day and night, day and night, day and night, seedtime and harvest, seedtime and harvest, seedtime and harvest...


How easy it would be if our Father ever wanted to make anything hard for us.

Who is Daddy...the pitcher waiting for you to get far enough off base to pick you off?

Or the pitcher lobbing you fat ones who will not stop until you smack it outta the park?


----------



## Artfuldodger

04ctd said:


> How to Become a Christian
> (It is easy as A, B, C)
> 
> ADMIT: You are a Sinner.
> "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23), and
> 
> "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”  (Romans 6:23).
> 
> BELIEVE: Jesus died for your sins.
> "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8)
> 
> "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."  (John 3: 16)
> 
> CONFESS: Jesus as your Personal Savior.
> “9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
> 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation..”  (Romans 10:9-10)
> 
> this is the _SHORT _answer....and the beginning...there is a lot of personal growth to be achieved also



I would still like to get back to the basics of this thread. I am looking for the short answer. What if I'm suddenly a missionary in a jungle village where they have never heard of God or Jesus? I tell them all about God & Jesus. I tell them they must be born again. I tell them all sorts of things they must do for salvation believe, repent, & confess. I tell them they must be baptized. 
How can I tell these people who've never heard of Jesus exactly what they must do if we who are "learned" believers don't even know? Who do they confess to, who do they repent to, who do they admit they are sinners to?
What if they don't understand being born again? Will they still be born again? Will the Holy Spirit dwell in them? Can they learn later as they read the Bible? Do I inform them they must produce fruit?


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> Being born again IS baptism - and no one is trying to disguise anything.


Washing does not lead to regeneration, regeneration is the washing(new birth). Water baptism is a picture or symbol of the new birth. That is why it is preceded by belief.



Bama4me said:


> I fully believe people have to do something to accept God's grace.  I've used this illustration before, but I'll say it again here.
> 
> If a millionaire in your area told you he would give you a million dollars, but that you had to come by his residence to pick it up, have you (being that you had to do something to receive it) "earned" that gift. Could you ever boast about anything YOU did in the matter - absolutely not!  The gift originated with the donor and He set forth the parameters by which the gift was received - as he had the natural "right" to do.  Complying with his wishes to receive it also would not make the man "indebted" to you in any way - any way you cut it, it's a gift.


Your example is not a gift, but an offer. God's grace is a free gift, not an offer.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> I would still like to get back to the basics of this thread. I am looking for the short answer.


"Salvation is of the Lord".


----------



## Artfuldodger

These new believers I'm a missionary to: I haven't even addressed faith, love, obedience, discipleship, & forgiveness.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> "Salvation is of the Lord".



So what am I doing in a jungle village? God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy, I'm going home!
Before I leave, do I need to tell the newly elected of this village that they have ANY responsibilities?


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Your example is not a gift, but an offer. God's grace is a free gift, not an offer.



This free gift of Grace doesn't require believing, faith, repentance, or obedience? 
There are no stipulations  to salvation that start with "whosoever", "whomever", or "therefore"?


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> So what am I doing in a jungle village? God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy, I'm going home!
> Before I leave, do I need to tell the newly elected of this village that they have ANY responsibilities?


Hey, if you can go home, go home. If you can't go home, tell the villagers about the Friend of sinners.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Hey, if you can go home, go home. If you can't go home, tell the villagers about the Friend of sinners.



In your own words, what would I tell them? Can I give the entire village eternal hope? Is he a friend to all sinners?


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> In your own words, what would I tell them? Can I give the entire village eternal hope? Is he a friend to all sinners?


You are about to find out. The Holy Spirit makes and reveals the sinner and they know that they have no hope in themselves. See if you can find one or many. They will be ready for the Good News, that Christ lived in this world and accomplished perfect righteousness, the only righteousness that is acceptable to God. He took our sins upon himself and paid the penalty due us. Tell them "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life".


----------



## hobbs27

Bama4me said:


> How do you explain the wording of Acts 2:38 and Acts 22:16 then?  To the three thousand and Saul, was it just an "ordinance"?  Regarding the ordained minister, you find ordinary men preaching and converting people in the book of Acts - not just apostles.



Yes. No doubt God wants his children to be baptized. The three thousand had to repent, Saul recieved his sight and heard the voice of God..he was blind but then he saw, obviously a new man.

Regarding the ordained minister...I believe today it is up to the church, I dont fault a church if they use ordinary people, but it is my opinion that ordinances such as baptism and communion should be led by ordained ministers.

 One thing people tend to forget is the bible stops very early in Christian history. The church has thousands of years of trial and error, and if they have found some things work best then more power to them...even if its not in the bible.  The kingdom continues. We are still aided with the direction and power of the Holy Spirit.


----------



## hobbs27

Bama4me said:


> Being born again IS baptism - .



This is where we totally disagree. I have little problem with others that think Baptism is the completion of a new believers salvation, but baptismal regeneration is dangerous, it gives people a false hope. Only believers are to be baptized, the ceremony of baptism does not make you a new creature...or make you a believer.


----------



## hummerpoo

Bama4me said:


> I think hummer hits the nail on the head with this first statement.  If we simply comply (submit) with what God has set forth as HIS requirements to be saved, God isn't "indebted" to us - it's HIS plan, HIS gift, etc.



I hope you are the only one capable of misconstruing my words so thoroughly.  Perhaps that is an insight into some of what I have been reading.


----------



## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> http://bible-truth.org/baptism.htm
> 
> "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures."(1 Corinthians 15:1 4)
> 
> Being immersed in water pictures the death of Jesus Christ dying for our sins. Being raised from the water is portrayal of Jesus' resurrection in which He conquered sin and death. Thus, being baptized by immersion the believer visually shows the spiritual death, burial, and resurrection of the believer's life. Baptism emphasizes to the new believer, and to those who witness the baptism, that as a Christian and child of God the Christian now is to live a godly life, resisting sin, and not giving it place in their lives.
> 
> 
> "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." (Romans 6:1-4)
> 
> Baptism always follows belief in Jesus Christ as one's Savior and baptism is not necessary for a person to be saved and born again. It is not an act that one does to obtain salvation and no one in the New Testament was baptized who did not first believe and put their faith in Jesus Christ. After a person is saved, as the New Testament plainly shows, they then were baptized. The Bible does not refer to baptism as a sacrament which has any saving properties, or as a part of salvation. For more information that explains why baptism is not necessary for salvation please read the article at http://bible truth.org/BaptismNotNecessary.html.
> 
> Baptism by immersion beautifully pictures the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. (Romans 6:3-4) Putting a person under the water strikingly emphasizes the burial of Christ, being raised out of the water symbolizes Christ's resurrection and the believer's new life in Christ.
> 
> "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Corinthians 5:17)
> 
> In Romans 6:4, God accentuates the burial when it says, "therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death." Baptism is a visual testimonial that our sins are forgiven by symbolizing they are buried with the Lord after he suffered and died for our sins on the Cross. As Romans 6:2, states the believer is dead to sin. Colossians adds that believers are alive unto Christ with God. "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God." (Col. 3:3)



It does no such thing.  That is commentary by the author of that article.  That is eisegesis (reading your beliefs into a passage.)  Romans 6 does not say baptism is a "picture" of what has already happened (and neither does any other passage of scripture.)  It says we are buried with Christ in baptism.  It says we are united with him in baptism.

Baptism is not a ceremony, a picture or a symbol.  As Tertullian said, it is a physical act with a spiritual effect.  I have been repeatedly told in this thread that there is a "spiritual baptism" and a water baptism.  They are one and the same.


----------



## centerpin fan

*For anyone ...*

How did we go from this:


"...no one can attain salvation without Baptism" - Tertullian, 3rd century


"If any man does not receive Baptism, he does not have salvation..." - Cyril, 4the century


"...for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of Baptism...." - Ambrose, 4th century


... to this:




> ... baptism is not necessary for a person to be saved and born again. It is not an act that one does to obtain salvation ... baptism is not necessary for salvation ...


 - Cooper Adams, 21st century


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> Washing does not lead to regeneration, regeneration is the washing(new birth). Water baptism is a picture or symbol of the new birth. That is why it is preceded by belief.
> 
> 
> Your example is not a gift, but an offer. God's grace is a free gift, not an offer.



Your definitions here are arbitrary and cannot be backed up by Scripture.  When we are baptized in water (as Jesus and His apostles commanded), GOD removes our sins - He is the one who applies the blood of Jesus to our lives.  Where in NT Scripture can one find your definitions of "baptism being a symbol" or a "gift" defined as you do?  Under your definition here, what God extended to Naaman in 2 Kings 5 was NOT a gift?  You mention later in the thread that one must believe.  As I've mentioned earlier, that's just as much of a "work" as anything else - because it's something a person must do.


----------



## Ronnie T

Quote:

... baptism is not necessary for a person to be saved and born again. It is not an act that one does to obtain salvation ... baptism is not necessary for salvation ...  

- Cooper Adams, 21st century 
*********************************

That's the very reason I seldom read things written during the past 100 years.
As Paul said in 1Cor 1, we've become too smart for our own good.  Everyone has a new way of looking at things.
I stick with the really old folks.
.


----------



## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> This is where we totally disagree. I have little problem with others that think Baptism is the completion of a new believers salvation, but baptismal regeneration is dangerous, it gives people a false hope. Only believers are to be baptized, the ceremony of baptism does not make you a new creature...or make you a believer.



Hobbs... I am not saying belief is not essential - it IS.  One can be immersed in water all day long and without belief in Jesus, he's simply taking a bath.  Belief is a prerequisite to being baptized.  However, it's not at the point of belief in Jesus that one is saved... it's baptism.  The Jews on Pentecost in Acts 2 believed Peter's message about Jesus... yet, Peter told them they needed to add to their belief "repentance" and "baptism".  Notice at baptism, Peter said their sins would be forgiven.

Regarding baptism not making you a new creature, I'll let Romans 6:4 say it: "We were buried therefore with Him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life."  Paul claimed that when a person rises from the "grave" of baptism, he begins walking in "newness of life."

Tell you what Hobbs... if you say a person is saved at the point of belief in Jesus, what about the people mentioned in John 12:42-43 and the beings mentioned in James 2:19?


----------



## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> I would still like to get back to the basics of this thread. I am looking for the short answer. What if I'm suddenly a missionary in a jungle village where they have never heard of God or Jesus? I tell them all about God & Jesus. I tell them they must be born again. I tell them all sorts of things they must do for salvation believe, repent, & confess. I tell them they must be baptized.
> How can I tell these people who've never heard of Jesus exactly what they must do if we who are "learned" believers don't even know? Who do they confess to, who do they repent to, who do they admit they are sinners to?
> What if they don't understand being born again? Will they still be born again? Will the Holy Spirit dwell in them? Can they learn later as they read the Bible? Do I inform them they must produce fruit?



Art... follow the pattern of Acts 2.  It was the first time after Jesus' resurrection that the gospel was (1) taught, (2) heard, and (3) accepted.  It was effective then... and it's effective to this day.  They believed the message... and upon being asked what to do to make their sin right, Peter said repent (change of heart that is reflected in change of action) and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins - receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit in their lives.  Following that, these people's life is described in verses 42-47 - a really good place to start when asking "what do we do now that we are the children of God."


----------



## Bama4me

centerpin fan said:


> It does no such thing.  That is commentary by the author of that article.  That is eisegesis (reading your beliefs into a passage.)  Romans 6 does not say baptism is a "picture" of what has already happened (and neither does any other passage of scripture.)  It says we are buried with Christ in baptism.  It says we are united with him in baptism.
> 
> Baptism is not a ceremony, a picture or a symbol.  As Tertullian said, it is a physical act with a spiritual effect.  I have been repeatedly told in this thread that there is a "spiritual baptism" and a water baptism.  They are one and the same.



It's amazing what eisegesis can make the bible say... not just about this topic, but about others as well.


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## Bama4me

hummerpoo said:


> I hope you are the only one capable of misconstruing my words so thoroughly.



Sorry to misinterpret what you said... I certainly don't want to put words into anyone's mouth.  After going and looking, I do notice "ingratiate" isn't the same thing as becoming "indebted"... sorry to confuse.  I stand by what I said about defining a work however.


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## centerpin fan

*For anyone ...*

How did we go from this:


Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; -- Titus 3:5, KJV AV

THE EPISTLE OF BARNABAS (c. A.D. 70)
Now let us see if the Lord has been at any pains to give us a foreshadowing of the waters of Baptism and of the cross. Regarding the former, we have the evidence of Scripture that Israel would refuse to accept the washing which confers the remission of sins and would set up a substitution of their own instead [Jer 22:13; Isa 16:1-2; 33:16-18; Psalm 1:3-6]. Observe there how he describes both the water and the cross in the same figure. His meaning is, "Blessed are those who go down into the water with their hopes set on the cross." Here he is saying that after we have stepped down into the water, burdened with sin and defilement, we come up out of it bearing fruit, with reverence in our hearts and the hope of Jesus in our souls. (11:1-10)

ST. THEOPHILUS OF ANTIOCH (c. A.D. 181)
Moreover, those things which were created from the waters were blessed by God, so that this might also be a sign that men would at a future time receive repentance and remission of sins through water and the bath of regeneration -- all who proceed to the truth and are born again and receive a blessing from God. (To Autolycus 2:16)

ST. IRENAEUS (c. A.D. 190)
"And [Naaman] dipped himself...seven times in the Jordan" [2 Kings 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: "Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Fragment 34)

RECOGNITIONS OF CLEMENT (c. A.D. 221)
But you will perhaps say, "What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?" In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so ...you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true Prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: "Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water....he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Recognitions 6:9)

ST. CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE (c. 200 - 258 A.D.)
But afterwards, when the stain of my past life had been washed away by means of the water of re-birth, a light from above poured itself upon my chastened and now pure heart; afterwards through the Spirit which is breathed from heaven, a second birth made of me a new man... Thus it had to be acknowledged that what was of the earth and was born of the flesh and had lived submissive to sins, had now begun to be of God, inasmuch as the Holy Spirit was animating it. (To Donatus 4)
[When] they receive also the Baptism of the Church...then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God...since it is written, "Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Letters 71[72]:1)
[It] behooves those to be baptized...so that they are prepared, in the lawful and true and only Baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God...because it is written, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Letters 72[73]:21)

ST. AMBROSE OF MILAN (c. A.D. 333 - 397)
The Lord was baptized, not to be cleansed Himself but to cleanse the waters, so that those waters, cleansed by the flesh of Christ which knew no sin, might have the power of Baptism. Whoever comes, therefore, to the washing of Christ lays aside his sins. (Commentary on the Gospel of Luke 2:83)
The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ's blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in Baptism -- Col 2:11-13] so that he can be saved...for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of Baptism...."Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (On Abraham 2:11:79,84)
You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in Baptism are one: water, blood and the Spirit [1 John 5:8]: and if you withdraw any one of these, the sacrament of Baptism is not valid. For what is the water without the cross of Christ? A common element with no sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water: for "unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (On the Mysteries 4:20)


... to this:




gemcgrew said:


> Washing does not lead to regeneration, regeneration is the washing(new birth). Water baptism is a picture or symbol of the new birth. That is why it is preceded by belief.


----------



## centerpin fan

Bama4me said:


> It's amazing what eisegesis can make the bible say... not just about this topic, but about others as well.



Amen to that.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Bama4me said:


> Art... follow the pattern of Acts 2.  It was the first time after Jesus' resurrection that the gospel was (1) taught, (2) heard, and (3) accepted.  It was effective then... and it's effective to this day.  They believed the message... and upon being asked what to do to make their sin right, Peter said repent (change of heart that is reflected in change of action) and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins - receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit in their lives.  Following that, these people's life is described in verses 42-47 - a really good place to start when asking "what do we do now that we are the children of God."



What do I tell these people will happen to them when they receive the Holy Spirit? They don't have a Bible in there language. Will the Holy Spirit guide them until I can get them a Bible?
Maybe it's a good thing I'm not a real missionary in a foreign land.


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## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> That's the very reason I seldom read things written during the past 100 years.
> As Paul said in 1Cor 1, we've become too smart for our own good.  Everyone has a new way of looking at things.
> I stick with the really old folks.
> .


Do you stick with this?

“Of these believers no one perishes, because they were all elected. And they were elected because they were called according to the purpose–the purpose, however, not their own, but God’s…Obedience then is God’s gift…To this, indeed, we are not able to deny, that perseverance in good, progressing even to the end, is also a great gift of God.” Augustine

“Such a soul [of a Christian] shall never at any time be separated from God…Faith, I say, is something divine, which cannot be pulled asunder by any other worldly friendship, nor be dissolved by present fear.” Clement Of Alexandria

“It is the will of God that all whom He loves should partake of repentance, and so not perish with the unbelieving and impenitent. He has established it by His almighty will. But if any of those whom God wills should partake of the grace of repentance, should afterwards perish, where is His almighty will? And how is this matter settled and established by such a will of His?” Clement Of Rome

"In all these discourses I have brought all my proofs out of your own holy and prophetic writings, hoping that some of you may be found of the elect number which through the grace that comes from the Lord of Sabaoth, is left or reserved [set apart] for everlasting salvation." Justin Martyr

"God hath completed the number which He before determined with Himself, all those who are written, or ordained unto eternal life...Being predestined indeed according to the love of the Father that we would belong to Him forever." Irenaeus

"Here certainly, there is no place for the vain argument of those who defend the foreknowledge of God against the grace of God, and accordingly maintain that we were elected before the foundation of the world because God foreknew that we would be good, not that He Himself would make us good. This is not the language of Him who said, 'You did not choose Me, but I chose you' (John 15:16)." Augustine

"Our free will...or human nature is not sufficient to seek God in any manner." Origen


----------



## Ronnie T

Read very carefully.  Paul expected the Romans to read it carefully.

Romans 6:
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 
2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 
3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 
4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 
5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 
6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

*We have been buried with Him "through" baptism.
Paul isn't describing a picture, Paul is describing the actuality of their baptism.


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> How did we go from this:
> 
> 
> 
> ... to this:
> 
> 
> 
> gemcgrew said:
> 
> 
> 
> Washing does not lead to regeneration, regeneration is the washing(new birth). Water baptism is a picture or symbol of the new birth. That is why it is preceded by belief.
Click to expand...

By the mercy and grace of God.


----------



## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> Read very carefully.  Paul expected the Romans to read it carefully.
> 
> Romans 6:
> 1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
> 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
> 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
> 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
> 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
> 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
> 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.
> 
> *We have been buried with Him "through" baptism.
> Paul isn't describing a picture, Paul is describing the actuality of their baptism.



Whatcha think?
.


----------



## hummerpoo

Bama4me said:


> Sorry to misinterpret what you said... I certainly don't want to put words into anyone's mouth.  After going and looking, I do notice "ingratiate" isn't the same thing as becoming "indebted"... sorry to confuse.  I stand by what I said about defining a work however.



Yes, our differences are far deeper than the distinction of ingratiate and indebted.  We can agree, however, that our disparate understanding of works will remain, unless the Lord has determined that one of us will change his God view.


----------



## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> Whatcha think?
> .



I think this man Simon assumed baptism would regenerate him, but Paul a man that said: I come to preach the Gospel not to baptize...saw he was not a regenerate.

Acts 8

9But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:

10To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.

11And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.

12But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

13Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

14Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

18And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

19Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

20But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

21Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

22Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

23For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

24Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.


----------



## hobbs27

Bama4me said:


> Hobbs... I am not saying belief is not essential - it IS.  One can be immersed in water all day long and without belief in Jesus, he's simply taking a bath.  Belief is a prerequisite to being baptized.  However, it's not at the point of belief in Jesus that one is saved... it's baptism.  The Jews on Pentecost in Acts 2 believed Peter's message about Jesus... yet, Peter told them they needed to add to their belief "repentance" and "baptism".  Notice at baptism, Peter said their sins would be forgiven.
> 
> Regarding baptism not making you a new creature, I'll let Romans 6:4 say it: "We were buried therefore with Him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life."  Paul claimed that when a person rises from the "grave" of baptism, he begins walking in "newness of life."
> 
> Tell you what Hobbs... if you say a person is saved at the point of belief in Jesus, what about the people mentioned in John 12:42-43 and the beings mentioned in James 2:19?



Im glad, I misunderstood as you did me. This is going to happen when we use common terms to describe different instances.
 In this debate, I have to admit I have a higher regard for the ordinance of water baptism, but I still do not see it as regeneration.
 The regeneration I speak of does not come at the time of belief...Satan and his angels believe. It comes when God decides, yet it is through faith...which is a noun by the way.


----------



## Ronnie T

hummerpoo said:


> Yes, our differences are far deeper than the distinction of ingratiate and indebted.  We can agree, however, that our disparate understanding of works will remain, unless the Lord has determined that one of us will change his God view.



Baptism isn't a work.
If it is, Jesus commanded us to believe and "preform a work" in order to be saved.

Maybe God uses baptism this way so that he can truly see a person's faith.

Question for you, no one else wants to answer it....
Was Noah saved from the flood by faith, or saved from the flood by works, or saved from the flood by God?


----------



## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> I think this man Simon assumed baptism would regenerate him, but Paul a man that said: I come to preach the Gospel not to baptize...saw he was not a regenerate.
> 
> Acts 8
> 
> 9But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
> 
> 10To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
> 
> 11And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.
> 
> 12But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
> 
> 13Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
> 
> 14Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
> 
> 15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
> 
> 16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
> 
> 17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
> 
> 18And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
> 
> 19Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
> 
> 20But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
> 
> 21Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
> 
> 22Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
> 
> 23For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
> 
> 24Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.



Simon was a man who BELIEVED and was BAPTISED but still sinned horribly.
That happens much more often than some would like to admit.


----------



## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> Read very carefully.  Paul expected the Romans to read it carefully.
> 
> Romans 6:
> 1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
> 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
> 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
> 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
> 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
> 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
> 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.
> 
> *We have been buried with Him "through" baptism.
> Paul isn't describing a picture, Paul is describing the actuality of their baptism.



Still wondering what people have to say as they look at these verses up close and personal.


----------



## M80

hobbs27 said:


> Im glad, I misunderstood as you did me. This is going to happen when we use common terms to describe different instances.
> In this debate, I have to admit I have a higher regard for the ordinance of water baptism, but I still do not see it as regeneration.
> The regeneration I speak of does not come at the time of belief...Satan and his angels believe. It comes when God decides, yet it is through faith...which is a noun by the way.



Hobbs it isn't believing in God, its believing in Jesus his son as our personal savior. The devils believe there is one god, not Jesus. Jesus said in John 14. Ye believe in god, believe also in me. 
We receive the spirit when we believe Jesus is our personal savior with a repenting heart(Ephesians 1:13. "In whom Ye also trusted, after that he heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, Ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise"


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> Baptism isn't a work.
> If it is, Jesus commanded us to believe and "preform a work" in order to be saved.
> 
> Maybe God uses baptism this way so that he can truly see a person's faith.
> 
> Question for you, no one else wants to answer it....
> Was Noah saved from the flood by faith, or saved from the flood by works, or saved from the flood by God?



All three, God told him to build the ark, he had enough faith to build it, he worked to build the ark.

Baptism would be all three, God told us to do it, we must have faith to do it, we must physically walk into a body of water and be physically dunked under. It is most definitely a work. 
Why is it wrong to call acts of obedience works? Baptism, prayer, believing, having faith, repenting, loving? Why is any of these things that we do not works and why does it matter? We are required to be obedient. We are required to love God and our fellow man.


----------



## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> Im glad, I misunderstood as you did me. This is going to happen when we use common terms to describe different instances.
> In this debate, I have to admit I have a higher regard for the ordinance of water baptism, but I still do not see it as regeneration.
> The regeneration I speak of does not come at the time of belief...Satan and his angels believe. It comes when God decides, yet it is through faith...which is a noun by the way.



Thanks for answering.  According to your understanding, when would you say God saved the three thousand folks in Acts 2?  Also, what about in the case of Saul?  Thanks.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Maybe works has a bad feel to it. What could we call obedience to God commands that would sound better than works? What could we call mental requirements by God  like loving and forgiving that would sound better than works?
Either we are doing it or God is doing it. If you have trouble with us doing something then move on over to Calvinism.


----------



## Bama4me

hummerpoo said:


> Yes, our differences are far deeper than the distinction of ingratiate and indebted.  We can agree, however, that our disparate understanding of works will remain, unless the Lord has determined that one of us will change his God view.



Just to clarify, how did you come to your definition of a "work"?  And I will agree that there are differences in our two belief systems.


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## centerpin fan

eis·e·ge·sis
  [ahy-si-jee-sis] 

noun, plural eis·e·ge·ses  [ahy-si-jee-seez]  

an interpretation, especially of Scripture, that expresses the interpreter's own ideas, bias, or the like, rather than the meaning of the text

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/eisegesis


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe works has a bad feel to it. What could we call obedience to God commands that would sound better than works? What could we call mental requirements by God  like loving and forgiving that would sound better than works?
> Either we are doing it or God is doing it. If you have trouble with us doing something then move on over to Calvinism.



There's a good thought Art.

Here's another one:

Do "Works" and "Obedience of Faith" mean the same thing to Christians today.

Works vs Obedience of faith.
.


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe works has a bad feel to it. What could we call obedience to God commands that would sound better than works? What could we call mental requirements by God  like loving and forgiving that would sound better than works?
> Either we are doing it or God is doing it. If you have trouble with us doing something then move on over to Calvinism.



     Easy.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> There's a good thought Art.
> 
> Here's another one:
> 
> Do "Works" and "Obedience of Faith" mean the same thing to Christians today.
> 
> Works vs Obedience of faith.
> .



They aren't works of the Law of Moses. They are works of obedience. Believe, trust, and obey God.


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> All three, God told him to build the ark, he had enough faith to build it, he worked to build the ark.
> 
> Baptism would be all three, God told us to do it, we must have faith to do it, we must physically walk into a body of water and be physically dunked under. It is most definitely a work.
> Why is it wrong to call acts of obedience works? Baptism, prayer, believing, having faith, repenting, loving? Why is any of these things that we do not works and why does it matter? We are required to be obedient. We are required to love God and our fellow man.



Now look at this Art.

1Peter 3:  .......... the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 In like manner, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 

We are saved in baptism in the same way that Noah was saved in the flood.  How?  Wanting a good conscience before God.

Noah had faith to build an ark.
We had faith to be baptized.
.


----------



## Artfuldodger

1 Thessalonians 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

How can we be obedient in our faith without working. We pray, worship, love, forgive, & help. We are doing these things of obedience. It doesn't matter why we do them as in fruits when we are explaining that we are doing them of our own free will, they are works.
Either God is doing these things of obedience or we are.


----------



## Ronnie T

I think we obey out of love but we work out of obligation.
.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I


Ronnie T said:


> Now look at this Art.
> 
> 1Peter 3:  .......... the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 In like manner, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
> 
> We are saved in baptism in the same way that Noah was saved in the flood.  How?  Wanting a good conscience before God.
> 
> Noah had faith to build an ark.
> We had faith to be baptized.
> .



It's not the removal of dirt. What removes dirt? 

and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

It doesn't get any clearer than this verse to let us know it's not the "thing" that removes dirt.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
 Water saved Noah not of itself, but by sustaining the ark built in faith, resting on God's word: it was to him the sign and mean of a kind of regeneration, of the earth. The flood was for Noah a baptism, 

 It is the ark (Christ and His Spirit-filled Church), not the water, which is the instrument of salvation: the water only flowed round the ark; so not the mere water baptism, but the water when accompanied with the Spirit.


----------



## Bama4me

Ronnie T said:


> I think we obey out of love but we work out of obligation.
> .



I think you hit on a topic that's often overlooked in many discussion of "works".  Twice in the book of Hebrews, Christians from a Jewish background were told they'd left "dead works" behind when they were saved.

Often, we assume "dead works" in that context to simply be the works specified by the Law of Moses - and that they were "dead" because the Law had been abolished by Jesus.  However, it's possible many Jews had been guilty of serving God strictly with action - with little to no involvement of the heart.  According to Jesus in Matthew 22, the Law was summed up in love for God and love for other people... might be many Jews didn't understand it that way, thinking "works without faith (heart involvement) was acceptable to God.  If that was the case, they most certainly would have been "dead works".

A parallel today would be things people do without any involvement of the heart.  We probably observe it most often in worship - when people simply "go through the motions".  Love, a characteristic of the heart, must be the driving force of our actions.  Seems like Paul had something to say about that in 1 Corinthians 13.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Bama4me said:


> I think you hit on a topic that's often overlooked in many discussion of "works".  Twice in the book of Hebrews, Christians from a Jewish background were told they'd left "dead works" behind when they were saved.
> 
> Often, we assume "dead works" in that context to simply be the works specified by the Law of Moses - and that they were "dead" because the Law had been abolished by Jesus.  However, it's possible many Jews had been guilty of serving God strictly with action - with little to no involvement of the heart.  According to Jesus in Matthew 22, the Law was summed up in love for God and love for other people... might be many Jews didn't understand it that way, thinking "works without faith (heart involvement) was acceptable to God.
> 
> A parallel today would be things people do without any involvement of the heart.  We probably observe it most often in worship - when people simply "go through the motions".  Love, a characteristic of the heart, must be the driving force of our actions.  Seems like Paul had something to say about that in 1 Corinthians 13.



And you just described the whole concept of what Jesus was teaching and what Christianity is all about.
These actions, works, obedience that we do. If we are doing them just for obedience out of fear instead of love, we are as guilty as the Pharisees who were doing works and ceremonies for the wrong reasons.
Love is the key and thus the two great New Covenant commandments.


----------



## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> And you just described the whole concept of what Jesus was teaching and what Christianity is all about.
> These actions, works, obedience that we do. If we are doing them just for obedience out of fear instead of love, we are as guilty as the Pharisees who were doing works and ceremonies for the wrong reasons.
> Love is the key and thus the two great New Covenant commandments.



Sometimes, I think it's easy to make Christianity harder than it is.  For Christ, is boiled down to those two ideas - and every command in the Law of Moses could be placed in the two categories.  Nothing is changed today in the Christian age - we love God and love others.  Every command in the NT will expound on what one of these commands really mean in terms of application.


----------



## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> Simon was a man who BELIEVED and was BAPTISED but still sinned horribly.
> That happens much more often than some would like to admit.



The point is, not only did he sin. After water baptism he still had not recieved the holy spirit. Cornelius recieved the holy spirit before water baptism. These two men and the story of them make it clear that water baptism is not the completion of salvation.


----------



## hobbs27

Bama4me said:


> Thanks for answering.  According to your understanding, when would you say God saved the three thousand folks in Acts 2?  Also, what about in the case of Saul?  Thanks.



All we can do is assume. I cannot judge when God has saved someone no more than I can judge that God has not saved someone. I have to go on their testimony and leave it up to them and the Lord.
 As I said above the story of Cornelius plus the story of Simon proves that water baptism is not the completion of salvation.


----------



## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> The point is, not only did he sin. After water baptism he still had not recieved the holy spirit. Cornelius recieved the holy spirit before water baptism. These two men and the story of them make it clear that water baptism is not the completion of salvation.



What?  Why?

You don't believe a saved person is capable of sinning terrible sins?

One time, as an apostle, Peter refused to associate with Gentile Christians because Jewish Christians were present.  Did that mean Peter didn't have the Holy Spirit?
Saved people comment sin, even though they have the Holy Spirit within them.

You're seeing things in those verses that aren't there.
.


----------



## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> What?  Why?
> 
> You don't believe a saved person is capable of sinning terrible sins?
> 
> You're seeing things in those verses that aren't there.
> .



Let me be more clear on what I see. Its not about a regenerated saved soul committing sin.


Acts 8

9But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:

10To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.

11And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.

12But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

13Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

_Here he believes and he was baptized but it is clear he is not born again; or made a new creature; he does not have the indwelling of the holy spirit and is still a creature of this world._

14Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

18And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

19Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

20But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

21Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
_Not a regenerate. Salvation is of the heart..ie soul of man. _

22Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

23For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

_Again a bond of iniquity, a slave to sin, not of Jesus Christ_

24Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.


Simon believed and was baptised but was not born again...He sought mechanical salvation, in the way of baptism or buying it with money. Paul himself makes the accusation here; not me...
 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.


----------



## hummerpoo

Ronnie T said:


> Baptism isn't a work.
> If it is, Jesus commanded us to believe and "preform a work" in order to be saved.
> 
> Maybe God uses baptism this way so that he can truly see a person's faith.
> 
> Question for you, no one else wants to answer it....
> Was Noah saved from the flood by faith, or saved from the flood by works, or saved from the flood by God?



No thanks, I don’t want to play.  In over four years I have not typed the word bap----, and that seems to be where you are headed; I like that record.

However, I would humbly request that you delete your hypothesis concerning God’s need/desire/? to “truly see”.  It’s like a bad accident to me … I keep looking at it.


----------



## hummerpoo

Bama4me said:


> Just to clarify, how did you come to your definition of a "work"?  And I will agree that there are differences in our two belief systems.



Clarify?  My understanding of works in scripture is based on Paul’s several uses of the word.  I find it supported in the Gospels and the Prophets.


----------



## hummerpoo

Bama4me said:


> Sometimes, I think it's easy to make Christianity harder than it is.  For Christ, is boiled down to those two ideas - and every command in the Law of Moses could be placed in the two categories.  Nothing is changed today in the Christian age - we love God and love others.  Every command in the NT will expound on what one of these commands really mean in terms of application.



Exactly! although I would argue that the second comes from the first.


----------



## Ronnie T

hummerpoo said:


> No thanks, I don’t want to play.  In over four years I have not typed the word bap----, and that seems to be where you are headed; I like that record.
> 
> However, I would humbly request that you delete your hypothesis concerning God’s need/desire/? to “truly see”.  It’s like a bad accident to me … I keep looking at it.



I assume you don't think much of it.
It's a Jesus word.  It's part of biblical teaching.

I also believe faith will always be tested.  By God.
.


----------



## centerpin fan

Ronnie T said:


> I assume you don't think much of it.
> It's a Jesus word.  It's part of biblical teaching.



I once had a guy tell me that baptism was no more important than the color of the carpet in the church.


----------



## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> Let me be more clear on what I see. Its not about a regenerated saved soul committing sin.
> 
> 
> Acts 8
> 
> 9But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
> 
> 10To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
> 
> 11And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.
> 
> 12But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
> 
> 13Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
> 
> _Here he believes and he was baptized but it is clear he is not born again; or made a new creature; he does not have the indwelling of the holy spirit and is still a creature of this world._
> 
> 14Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
> 
> 15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
> 
> 16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
> 
> 17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
> 
> 18And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
> 
> 19Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
> 
> 20But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
> 
> 21Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
> _Not a regenerate. Salvation is of the heart..ie soul of man. _
> 
> 22Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
> 
> 23For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
> 
> _Again a bond of iniquity, a slave to sin, not of Jesus Christ_
> 
> 24Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.
> 
> 
> Simon believed and was baptised but was not born again...He sought mechanical salvation, in the way of baptism or buying it with money. Paul himself makes the accusation here; not me...
> For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.



Again, you've read a lot of stuff into those verses.

Those scriptures say the man "believed".
I don't know anything other than what the scriptures record about him.

Peter(not Paul) asked the man to repent and ask God to forgive him of that wrong.

I would be inclined to say the man was a total fake, except the scripture says he believed.  I don't know.
.


----------



## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> The point is, not only did he sin. After water baptism he still had not recieved the holy spirit. Cornelius recieved the holy spirit before water baptism. These two men and the story of them make it clear that water baptism is not the completion of salvation.



I will agree with you that it isn't the completion of salvation.

But what about this.....  

Mark 16:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved.......................  19 So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. 20 And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed.]


----------



## Bama4me

hobbs27 said:


> All we can do is assume. I cannot judge when God has saved someone no more than I can judge that God has not saved someone. I have to go on their testimony and leave it up to them and the Lord.
> As I said above the story of Cornelius plus the story of Simon proves that water baptism is not the completion of salvation.



If someone asks you "am I saved?" and tells you everything that's ever happened to them in their life regarding "being saved", what answer would you give... what direction would you point them in?  Surely you don't claim that everyone who says they're saved actually ARE saved do you?  Jesus clearly indicated such was not true (Matthew 7:21-23).

Earlier in the thread, I pointed out there is seemingly a contradiction in the account of the Samaritans and Cornelius.  The conclusion some come to is that there are TWO ways people can be saved... and that it's up to an individual to choose which way.  The problem with that is that Christ gave clear instructions to the apostles in the Great Commission... and told them specific conditions which had to be met for salvation to be received by people (Matthew 28:18-20, Mark 16:15-16).  Romans 6:17 also seems to speak against this idea when it says "you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine".  Notice the singular usage of "form of doctrine".

Acts 8 and Acts 10 seemingly contradict one another when it comes to how people are saved and receive the Holy Spirit... thus, one of the two had to have been a special circumstance - one that was the "exception to the rule".  In Acts 2:38, Acts 8:12ff, and Acts 19:1-7, reception of the Holy Spirit came after baptism.  Thus, Acts 10 is the exception to the rule... why?  Acts 11:ff explains.  Surely if people receive the Holy Spirit prior to belief and/or baptism, it would have seen at least a few times in the book of Acts... but it's not.  Also, it's important to see Cornelius and his family were baptized in water after Peter was shown they were indeed candidates for conversion.


----------



## Bama4me

hummerpoo said:


> Clarify?  My understanding of works in scripture is based on Paul’s several uses of the word.  I find it supported in the Gospels and the Prophets.



Could you specifically cite where you find that works are defined as "things designed to ingratiate God" (deeds designed to "curry favor with" God).


----------



## hummerpoo

Ronnie T said:


> I assume you don't think much of it.
> It's a Jesus word.  It's part of biblical teaching.
> 
> I also believe faith will always be tested.  By God.
> .



I thought that word deserved red.  Your assumption is totally incorrect.  What is true is that many handle the subject in a detrimental manor.  Discord within the body is never good; in public view it violates scriptural imperitives.



centerpin fan said:


> I once had a guy tell me that baptism was no more important than the color of the carpet in the church.



Makes my  point.


----------



## centerpin fan

hummerpoo said:


> Makes my  point.



Do you agree with him?  Baptism is no more important than the color of the church carpet?


----------



## M80

Bama4me said:


> If someone asks you "am I saved?" and tells you everything that's ever happened to them in their life regarding "being saved", what answer would you give... what direction would you point them in?  Surely you don't claim that everyone who says they're saved actually ARE saved do you?  Jesus clearly indicated such was not true (Matthew 7:21-23).
> 
> Earlier in the thread, I pointed out there is seemingly a contradiction in the account of the Samaritans and Cornelius.  The conclusion some come to is that there are TWO ways people can be saved... and that it's up to an individual to choose which way.  The problem with that is that Christ gave clear instructions to the apostles in the Great Commission... and told them specific conditions which had to be met for salvation to be received by people (Matthew 28:18-20, Mark 16:15-16).  Romans 6:17 also seems to speak against this idea when it says "you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine".  Notice the singular usage of "form of doctrine".
> 
> Acts 8 and Acts 10 seemingly contradict one another when it comes to how people are saved and receive the Holy Spirit... thus, one of the two had to have been a special circumstance - one that was the "exception to the rule".  In Acts 2:38, Acts 8:12ff, and Acts 19:1-7, reception of the Holy Spirit came after baptism.  Thus, Acts 10 is the exception to the rule... why?  Acts 11:ff explains.  Surely if people receive the Holy Spirit prior to belief and/or baptism, it would have seen at least a few times in the book of Acts... but it's not.  Also, it's important to see Cornelius and his family were baptized in water after Peter was shown they were indeed candidates for conversion.





mwilliams80 said:


> Hobbs it isn't believing in God, its believing in Jesus his son as our personal savior. The devils believe there is one god, not Jesus. Jesus said in John 14. Ye believe in god, believe also in me.
> We receive the spirit when we believe Jesus is our personal savior with a repenting heart(Ephesians 1:13. "In whom Ye also trusted, after that he heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, Ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise"



Does the bible contradict itself.


----------



## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> Does the bible contradict itself.



It obviously does.  

Ephesians 4 says there is one baptism, but I have been assured repeatedly in this thread that scripture plainly teaches there are between two and seven baptisms.


----------



## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> Does the bible contradict itself.



It obviously does.

1 Peter 3:21 actually contains the statement "baptism now saves you" yet I have been assured repeatedly in this thread that baptism has absolutely nothing to do with salvation.


----------



## M80

mwilliams80 said:


> Ephesians 4. 4,5
> Vrs 5.  KJV    There is one body, and one Spirit, even as he are called in one hope of your calling;5.  One lord, one faith, one baptism.
> 
> One baptism, yet there is three differant baptism in the bible
> 
> 1.) a baptism with the water(acts 8vrs 38)
> Water baptism
> 2.)a baptism with the Holy Ghost (Matt. 3vrs 11)
> 3.) a baptism into Christ. (Romans 6. Vrs 3)
> 
> Which is the one baptism
> Romans 6. 3. Know Ye not, that so many of us were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death
> This baptized into Christ is salvation. Galatians 3vrs 27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. We are baptized into Christ the moment we are saved. There will never be a #1 and #2 baptism if there has never been a #3
> Water baptism is the earthly witness. Holy Ghost baptism is the heavenly witness
> By the spirit we were first baptized into Christ, (he led us to The Lord ), and then by Christ we are baptized with the spirit.
> 
> Water baptism is an outward expression to show forth unto people that they have been saved. It does not take away sins. Example  Acts 10 vrs 43. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosever BELIEVETH in him shall receive remission of sins.
> 
> Here in these verses they had already received the Holy Ghost before they were water baptized. Acts 10vrs 47. Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we.



Through my studies this is where I stand. I honestly just wanted to know where people stood in this forum on this topic for future discussion.


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> Through my studies this is where I stand. I honestly just wanted to know where people stood in this forum on this topic for future discussion.



Somehow I missed your reference to Acts 10 earlier.  So you believe Cornelius and his family were saved when baptized with the Holy Spirit... that Holy Spirit baptism is the point when a person is saved.  Correct?


----------



## M80

Bama4me said:


> Somehow I missed your reference to Acts 10 earlier.  So you believe Cornelius and his family were saved when baptized with the Holy Spirit... that Holy Spirit baptism is the point when a person is saved.  Correct?


The bible says that John said there is one coming that will baptize with the Holy Ghost. How is that. Was it Jesus that submerged you in water, I think not, seeing it is our inner man that is born again(saved), its Jesus that submerged us in his blood to cleanse us the moment we believed as Ephesians 1 says.


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> The bible says that John said there is one coming that will baptize with the Holy Ghost. How is that. Was it Jesus that submerged you in water, I think not, seeing it is our inner man that is born again(saved), its Jesus that submerged us in his blood to cleanse us the moment we believed as Ephesians 1 says.



Can you answer "yes" or "no" to post 643?  If "no", please explain how baptism of the Spirit works into the equation of being saved.  Thanks.


----------



## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> The bible says that John said there is one coming that will baptize with the Holy Ghost. How is that. Was it Jesus that submerged you in water, I think not, seeing it is our inner man that is born again(saved), its Jesus that submerged us in his blood to cleanse us the moment we believed as Ephesians 1 says.



BTW... there's also more than three baptisms that can be found in the NT.  There's actually seven.


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> Do you agree with him?  Baptism is no more important than the color of the church carpet?


That would depend upon context. If you were making baptism a condition of grace, I would agree with him.


----------



## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> Again, you've read a lot of stuff into those verses.
> 
> Those scriptures say the man "believed".
> I don't know anything other than what the scriptures record about him.
> 
> Peter(not Paul) asked the man to repent and ask God to forgive him of that wrong.



Thanks for pointing out that error. Im only human and make a lot of mistakes. Thankfully our Lord gives us salvation that is perfect, because no man plays a part in it.



Ronnie T said:


> I would be inclined to say the man was a total fake, except the scripture says he believed.  I don't know.
> .


 At least you are meeting me halfway and understand my point, whether you agree or not, I feel better knowing that I was able to communicate what I was seeing.


----------



## Ronnie T

Baptism, like believing and repenting, is an opportunity provided by grace.


----------



## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> Thanks for pointing out that error. Im only human and make a lot of mistakes. Thankfully our Lord gives us salvation that is perfect, because no man plays a part in it.
> QUOTE]
> 
> No one makes more mistake than myself.


----------



## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> I will agree with you that it isn't the completion of salvation.
> 
> But what about this.....
> 
> Mark 16:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved.......................  19 So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. 20 And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed.]




 16 He who has believed and reads their bible shall be saved.......................  

 16 He who has believed and cuts the grass for their church shall be saved.......................  

 16 He who has believed and has gone fishing shall be saved.......................  


Its about faith no matter what else you throw in there it's always about faith and Gods grace.


----------



## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> 16 He who has believed and reads their bible shall be saved.......................
> 
> 16 He who has believed and cuts the grass for their church shall be saved.......................
> 
> 16 He who has believed and has gone fishing shall be saved.......................
> 
> 
> Its about faith no matter what else you throw in there it's always about faith and Gods grace.



Just to be clear ... Jesus threw that in there.

He also threw in "you must be born of water and Spirit".


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## hobbs27

Bama4me said:


> If someone asks you "am I saved?" and tells you everything that's ever happened to them in their life regarding "being saved", what answer would you give



 I dont know! Its personal between you and the Lord.




... 





Bama4me said:


> what direction would you point them in?


Checkup! Ask the Lord in humble prayer, if you still dont get an answer grab a jug of water and go to the woods until you get your answer.




Bama4me said:


> Surely you don't claim that everyone who says they're saved actually ARE saved do you?  Jesus clearly indicated such was not true (Matthew 7:21-23).



I don't claim it, many have been decieved, but I dont possess the ability to judge. Our salvation is our personal responsibility.




Bama4me said:


> Earlier in the thread, I pointed out there is seemingly a contradiction in the account of the Samaritans and Cornelius.  The conclusion some come to is that there are TWO ways people can be saved... and that it's up to an individual to choose which way.  The problem with that is that Christ gave clear instructions to the apostles in the Great Commission... and told them specific conditions which had to be met for salvation to be received by people (Matthew 28:18-20, Mark 16:15-16).  Romans 6:17 also seems to speak against this idea when it says "you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine".  Notice the singular usage of "form of doctrine".
> 
> Acts 8 and Acts 10 seemingly contradict one another when it comes to how people are saved and receive the Holy Spirit... thus, one of the two had to have been a special circumstance - one that was the "exception to the rule".  In Acts 2:38, Acts 8:12ff, and Acts 19:1-7, reception of the Holy Spirit came after baptism.  Thus, Acts 10 is the exception to the rule... why?  Acts 11:ff explains.  Surely if people receive the Holy Spirit prior to belief and/or baptism, it would have seen at least a few times in the book of Acts... but it's not.  Also, it's important to see Cornelius and his family were baptized in water after Peter was shown they were indeed candidates for conversion.



Jonah said Salvation is of the Lord! Now I dont believe Jonah recieved salvation while in the belly of the whale, but I think Jonah was privelaged to some wisdom outside of our mortal understandings.
 The Holy spirit will draw each of us however is best for us to understand. I believe everyone will be called and I believe rejecting the drawing of the Holy spirit to salvation is that one sin that cannot be forgiven --blasphemy of the Holy spirit-- thats the one that you will have eternity think about while in torments. 
 Salvation comes to those that are blind, deaf, lame...to those that cant read, and even to us that read and study all the time feeding off the word---doesnt make us any better than the man that never picked up a bible, yet heard the preached word, had his heart pricked and accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as his personal savior---baptised or not He would belong to the Lord and is a child of God.


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## hobbs27

gemcgrew said:


> That would depend upon context. If you were making baptism a condition of grace, I would agree with him.



Agree!


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## hobbs27

centerpin fan said:


> Just to be clear ... Jesus threw that in there.
> 
> He also threw in "you must be born of water and Spirit".



I know.

http://www.letusreason.org/Biblexp67.htm


Jesus is having a conversation with Nicodemus, who was a Pharisee. Jesus spoke to Nicodemus in accordance to the Pharisee’s teaching- to be born of water meant to be born physically. This is proved by Nicodemus remark who thought to be born again meant a physical birth “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born? In verse 5, Jesus proceeds to say, “Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, you cannot enter the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus, who was a Pharisee, believed like the other Jews that because he was born a Jew and kept God’s ordinances that he should automatically enter into the kingdom of God. However, Jesus explains this is not enough. In verse 6, Jesus Himself interprets the water as flesh (a physical birth) "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." Jesus says of being born of water is to be born of the flesh. Jesus explains the difference, telling Nicodemus you have already had a physical birth, you are in need of a another birth “Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' Literally from the Spirit above to enter the kingdom. You must be born again “that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." The new birth from above is a second birth which gives us eternal life


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## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> I know.
> 
> http://www.letusreason.org/Biblexp67.htm
> 
> 
> Jesus is having a conversation with Nicodemus, who was a Pharisee. Jesus spoke to Nicodemus in accordance to the Pharisee’s teaching- to be born of water meant to be born physically. This is proved by Nicodemus remark who thought to be born again meant a physical birth “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born? In verse 5, Jesus proceeds to say, “Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, you cannot enter the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus, who was a Pharisee, believed like the other Jews that because he was born a Jew and kept God’s ordinances that he should automatically enter into the kingdom of God. However, Jesus explains this is not enough. In verse 6, Jesus Himself interprets the water as flesh (a physical birth) "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." Jesus says of being born of water is to be born of the flesh. Jesus explains the difference, telling Nicodemus you have already had a physical birth, you are in need of a another birth “Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' Literally from the Spirit above to enter the kingdom. You must be born again “that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." The new birth from above is a second birth which gives us eternal life



Disagree.  

It doesn't make sense logically, and nobody took it to mean physical birth before the Reformation.  See post 458 for examples.


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## hobbs27

centerpin fan said:


> Disagree.
> 
> It doesn't make sense logically, and nobody took it to mean physical birth before the Reformation.  See post 458 for examples.



It makes perfect sense to me, and was probably understood well by the anabaptists before the reformation, as they were Christs church that started out as a small mustard seed and blossomed into the massive mustard plant with limbs so strong foul of the air could light upon.


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## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> It makes perfect sense to me, and was probably understood well by the anabaptists before the reformation ...



The Anabaptists were part of the Radical Reformation.


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## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> It makes perfect sense to me ...



So he's telling Nicodemus he must be born?  Is there any activity where someone tells us beforehand we have to be physically born?

Me:  "I'd like to register to vote."

Clerk:  "OK, but I have a question for you.  Have you been born?"


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## hobbs27

centerpin fan said:


> So he's telling Nicodemus he must be born?  Is there any activity where someone tells us beforehand we have to be physically born?
> 
> Me:  "I'd like to register to vote."
> 
> Clerk:  "OK, but I have a question for you.  Have you been born?"



Nicodemus asks the questions....How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mothers womb and be born?

 Jesus answered, Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Its very simple...but to make it even more clear Jesus adds.

That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of spirit is spirit.


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## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> Its very simple...



... but misunderstood for 1,500 years, apparently.

I used to listen to Hank Hanegraaff (the Bible answer man) every night on the way home from work.  I probably listened to him for 8-10 years.  In all that time, I heard him rendered speechless on exactly one occasion.

Hank and another guy were debating a Roman Catholic apologist.  They were discussing various issues, and baptism came up.  The Catholic guy referred to John 3:5 and said Jesus was talking about baptism.  Hank replied as you have, stating that was incorrect and Jesus was talking about physical birth.  In response, the Catholic asked a simple question:

Can you name one church figure from 100 AD up until the Reformation who believed John 3:5 referred to physical birth?

Here was Hank's reply:


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## hobbs27

centerpin fan said:


> ... but misunderstood for 1,500 years, apparently.
> 
> I used to listen to Hank Hanegraaff (the Bible answer man) every night on the way home from work.  I probably listened to him for 8-10 years.  In all that time, I heard him rendered speechless on exactly one occasion.
> 
> Hank and another guy were debating a Roman Catholic apologist.  They were discussing various issues, and baptism came up.  The Catholic guy referred to John 3:5 and said Jesus was talking about baptism.  Hank replied as you have, stating that was incorrect and Jesus was talking about physical birth.  In response, the Catholic asked a simple question:
> 
> Can you name one church figure from 100 AD up until the Reformation who believed John 3:5 referred to physical birth?



From 100 AD to the reformation the christian churches that would have known what Jesus was saying were pretty much underground from persecution by the Catholic church.
 The Catholic church, {and please correct me if Im wrong because I very well could be} did not allow its members to read scripture but had its bishops learn the Latin language so they could interpret it to the membership. If someone is wanting to keep a doctrine that is contrary to the scripture isn't this the way to do it, hide the scripture and meanings from the members?


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## Ronnie T

At this point, I think it will be good to remind ourselves of the following......

39 For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” 40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation!” 41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls. 42 They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.

43 Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles. 44 And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common; 45 and they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need. 46 Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.

We don't actually 'join' or 'sign-up'.
The Lord adds to His kingdom those whom He
grants salvation to.

And everything ultimately changes after that.
.


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## M80

Ronnie T said:


> At this point, I think it will be good to remind ourselves of the following......
> 
> 39 For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” 40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation!” 41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls. 42 They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
> 
> 43 Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles. 44 And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common; 45 and they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need. 46 Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.
> 
> We don't actually 'join' or 'sign-up'.
> The Lord adds to His kingdom those whom He
> grants salvation to.
> 
> And everything ultimately changes after that.
> .



Alright now The Lord gives, not grants to whosever will. The Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved

He added to the church cause they were in one mind and one accord. When a church develops this attitude The Lord will bless a church


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## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> From 100 AD to the reformation the christian churches that would have known what Jesus was saying were pretty much underground from persecution by the Catholic church.
> The Catholic church, {and please correct me if Im wrong because I very well could be} did not allow its members to read scripture but had its bishops learn the Latin language so they could interpret it to the membership. If someone is wanting to keep a doctrine that is contrary to the scripture isn't this the way to do it, hide the scripture and meanings from the members?



You're assuming that it _is_ contrary to scripture.


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## M80

Bama4me said:


> Somehow I missed your reference to Acts 10 earlier.  So you believe Cornelius and his family were saved when baptized with the Holy Spirit... that Holy Spirit baptism is the point when a person is saved.  Correct?



Yes, Peter was sent to his family to preach to them. When the heard the word of god they believed and received the Holy Spirit. You can not receive the Holy Spirit unles you are saved( born again). They were born of the spirit at this moment and after they had received the spirit he asked about water baptism.


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## Ronnie T

mwilliams80 said:


> Yes, Peter was sent to his family to preach to them. When the heard the word of god they believed and received the Holy Spirit. You can not receive the Holy Spirit unles you are saved( born again). They were born of the spirit at this moment and after they had received the spirit he asked about water baptism.



I didn't receive the Holy Spirit in the same way Cornelius did.  I think I received the Holy Spirit in the way those of Acts 2 received Him.  I didn't speak in unknown languages when I received the Spirit.
Why Cornelius but not me or those in Acts 2?
.


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## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> The bible says that John said there is one coming that will baptize with the Holy Ghost. How is that. Was it Jesus that submerged you in water, I think not, seeing it is our inner man that is born again(saved), its Jesus that submerged us in his blood to cleanse us the moment we believed as Ephesians 1 says.



I think this makes a good point. What did John mean? How does Jesus baptize with the Holy Spirit? Is this just the physical baptisms Jesus performed while on Earth?


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## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> Disagree.
> 
> It doesn't make sense logically, and nobody took it to mean physical birth before the Reformation.  See post 458 for examples.



It makes very good sense logically, Nicodemus was asking about being born again physically. Jesus let him know that was not the only birth needed.
Why didn't Jesus say, unless a person is born of water, he can't enter the Kingdom of God? If this born of water is as you say, why isn't it enough to be born again of water?

Unless a man is born of water he can't enter the Kingdom of God. 

Wasn't Jesus talking to a man who had just asked if he had to re-enter his mother's womb? 
I'm not trying to speak for Jesus but if someone asked me that, I would have to say "look that was your first birth, you can't re-enter your mother's womb, your second birth must be a spiritual birth. Your first birth was a physical birth, your second birth is not PHYSICAL but spiritual.

I'm a grace plus works believer and even I must succumb to this logical reasoning.


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## M80

centerpin fan said:


> Disagree.
> 
> It doesn't make sense logically, and nobody took it to mean physical birth before the Reformation.  See post 458 for examples.



I've always understood being born of water meant the natural birth of a women. Why do you think women say" oh my goodness, my water just broke".


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## Artfuldodger

I think we all need to look at what being "born again" means. Even if you do believe baptism is a part of salvation, being "born again" is a spiritual re-birth. Somehow baptism with water is a part of showing or demonstrating this spiritual re-birth. 
But this re-birth is a spiritual re-birth, therefore it can't require something physical. It is SPIRITUAL. 
We do have physical requirements that manifest themselves or start from this spiritual re-birth. Love, obedience, and forgiveness come to mind as we have this spiritual rebirth and these things manifest themselves physically.


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## Artfuldodger

We must have a physical birth and we must have a spiritual birth.
Those two births are a "given."  
We can add whatever else we want to as to salvation but it doesn't remove our two births. One is physical and one is spiritual. 
Even a "works" believer like me can see this. I'm hoping my spiritual birth can help me overcome some of the shortfalls of my physical birth.


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## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> I've always understood being born of water meant the natural birth of a women.



Post 458 shows four centuries of Christian thought on the matter.


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## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> Post 458 shows four centuries of Christian thought on the matter.


CF, do you hold to Scripture as final authority?


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## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> CF, do you hold to Scripture as final authority?



Yes.


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## ecole

I ran across this statement today,

"Man cannot be saved by perfect obedience, for he cannot render it. He cannot be saved by imperfect obedience because God will not accept it. The only solution to this dilemma is the redemption that  is in Christ Jesus."


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## centerpin fan

ecole said:


> I ran across this statement today,
> 
> "Man cannot be saved by perfect obedience, for he cannot render it. He cannot be saved by imperfect obedience because God will not accept it. The only solution to this dilemma is the redemption that  is in Christ Jesus."



Agreed.


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## Bama4me

mwilliams80 said:


> You can not receive the Holy Spirit unles you are saved( born again).



Can you document that in Scripture... a place where it says that people couldn't (under any circumstance) receive the Holy Spirit unless they were saved?

Under this formula of "belief and receive the Holy Spirit," how does this work over in Acts 8 with the Samaritans?


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## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> It makes very good sense logically, Nicodemus was asking about being born again physically. Jesus let him know that was not the only birth needed.
> Why didn't Jesus say, unless a person is born of water, he can't enter the Kingdom of God? If this born of water is as you say, why isn't it enough to be born again of water?
> 
> Unless a man is born of water he can't enter the Kingdom of God.
> 
> Wasn't Jesus talking to a man who had just asked if he had to re-enter his mother's womb?
> I'm not trying to speak for Jesus but if someone asked me that, I would have to say "look that was your first birth, you can't re-enter your mother's womb, your second birth must be a spiritual birth. Your first birth was a physical birth, your second birth is not PHYSICAL but spiritual.
> 
> I'm a grace plus works believer and even I must succumb to this logical reasoning.



The reason Nicodemas asked about going back into his mother's womb was because Jesus said one must be "born again."  He was envisioning as an adult, trying to get back into his mother's womb and being born all over again.

Jesus was not referring to a "water birth" when he said a man must be born of the water... he was referring to the outward (in water) part of baptism along with the inward (spiritual) part of baptism.  When we are baptized, God cleanses us with the blood of Christ.  As CF indicates, it would have been ridiculous for Jesus to have told Nicodemas he "had to be born the first time" in order to be saved... and you won't find this type of statement anywhere else in the bible regarding salvation (referring to a person having to actually "be" a human being or "be born into the world").

People approach this passage already convinced that water baptism isn't necessary... that's how this explanation of the text began.  Look back in history and you'll see.


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## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> I didn't receive the Holy Spirit in the same way Cornelius did.  I think I received the Holy Spirit in the way those of Acts 2 received Him.  I didn't speak in unknown languages when I received the Spirit.
> Why Cornelius but not me or those in Acts 2?
> .



I believe the Holy Spirit fell on Cornelius for one reason, and only one reason.

It was God's sign to the Jewish Christians who were there observing what was taking place in this Gentile's house.  It was the sign (to those Jews), that God approved the teaching of the Gospel and the baptism of them man.

Remember Paul's statement after the appearance of the Spirit's power?  "After seeing this, what man can deny baptism to Cornelius?"
.


----------

