# Wow....Methodists just like Baptists....



## dawg2 (Aug 2, 2009)

I wnet to a Methodist service today.  It was just  VERY SIMILAR to a Baptist service....first Methodist service I ever went to.


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## Mako22 (Aug 2, 2009)

Historical Methodists and historical Baptist do share a lot in common. There are some differences though like Methodist don't believe in eternal security of the believer and a lot of them sprinkle. Back at the begining of the last century Baptist and Methodist often attended each others revival meetings. Today though with modernism crept into all denominations the lines are very blurred at times. 




P.S. No they didn't.


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## The Original Rooster (Aug 2, 2009)

Yep, not a whole lot of difference except the depth of the water.


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## chiefsquirrel83 (Aug 2, 2009)

i grew up methodist and now presbyterian...not a big difference between those either....i love baptist, methodist, and presbyterian services......more bible teachings.....i am more of a bible study type of person....i love history and philosophy


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## dawg2 (Aug 2, 2009)

RoosterTodd said:


> Yep, not a whole lot of difference except the depth of the water.





Woodsman69 said:


> Historical Methodists and historical Baptist do share a lot in common. There are some differences though like Methodist don't believe in eternal security of the believer and a lot of them sprinkle. Back at the begining of the last century Baptist and Methodist often attended each others revival meetings. Today though with modernism crept into all denominations the lines are very blurred at times.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Well, these guys sprinkle.  They had some Baptisms today.  I also noticed a lot of similarities to Catholicism during the service: the prayers, apostolic creed, communion (they use grape juice though, I was told), but the hymnswere definitely Baptist


P.S.: Yes they did


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## aus.1657 (Aug 2, 2009)

The primitive Baptists get all excited and start jumping over the pews...while the Methodists and the Presbyterians sleep in them.
(a Presbyterian minister told me that one)


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## christianhunter (Aug 2, 2009)

Some of their "Methods" are different.


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## jason4445 (Aug 3, 2009)

you can go to a First Methodist and First Baptist Church service and except for the Lord's Prayer where the Methodist say trespassers and Baptist say debtors, it is almost exactly the same service.

The main difference is with the Baptist you do three things and you go to heaven -believe -tithe - attend church.  Methodist believe you also need to do good works along with faith to be able to go to heaven.  Although with the fad popularity of once saved always save you now do find segments of the larger Methodist churches leaning toward once saved.  But traditionally Methodist where mainly noticed for the good works, also until about the late 1800's Methodist were noted as being one of the most fundamental churches about and were often called the "Rolling Methodist" cause so many would get caught up in the spirit during service and would roll about on the floor.


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## MudDucker (Aug 3, 2009)

jason4445 said:


> The main difference is with the Baptist you do three things and you go to heaven -believe -tithe - attend church.



Wrong, we believe that all you have to do is to believe is that Jesus was the Son of God, He died for our sins and He was resurrected.



jason4445 said:


> Methodist believe you also need to do good works along with faith to be able to go to heaven.



Wrong, Methodist believe the same as Baptist as to how to get to heaven.  The only difference is we Baptist believe once saved, always saved, while Methodist believe that you may lose your salvation.

No Christian Church believes that works will get you to heaven.


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## Jeffriesw (Aug 3, 2009)

*Church I Belong to*

Primitive Methodist

We believe the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, to be the only true rule of faith and practice. We hold it to be wholly and verbally given by God and therefore without error in all its teachings. 

We believe in One God, who exists in three persons; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. 

We believe in the Deity of Jesus Christ, the Son; conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. 

We believe in the Deity and Personality of the Holy Spirit. 

We believe in the creation of man by a direct act of God; man's fall into sin and the resulting corruption of the human race. 

We believe in the provision of Redemption for all men through the death of the Lord Jesus Christ upon the cross. 

We believe in the necessity of Repentance, including Godly sorrow for sin and reformation of life. 

We believe in Regeneration, through the work of the Holy Spirit. 

We believe in Justification by grace through faith of all who believe. 

We believe in Sanctification by the Holy Spirit, producing Holiness of Heart and Life. 

We believe in the Resurrection of the dead and the conscious future existence of all men. 

We believe in the Second Coming of Christ in power and glory. 

We believe in the future Judgment of both the just and the unjust issuing in eternal rewards and punishments of all men. 

We believe in the Church, which is instituted by Christ and composed of all believers in Christ as Savior.


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## christianhunter (Aug 3, 2009)

Swamp Runner said:


> Primitive Methodist
> 
> We believe the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, to be the only true rule of faith and practice. We hold it to be wholly and verbally given by God and therefore without error in all its teachings.
> 
> ...



And I believe this too.We shouldn't be able to tell the difference,in any Church we go to.I'm with you Brother.


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## gordon 2 (Aug 3, 2009)

I have it in church histories here that the Methodist were initially a movement of the Anglican church which eventually went on its own. John Wesley was an Anglican I believe. His and his brothers works had a lot in common with Baptist revival assemblies of the same time.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 3, 2009)

jason4445 said:


> with the Baptist you do three things and you go to heaven -believe -tithe - attend church.





MudDucker said:


> Wrong, we believe that all you have to do is to believe is that Jesus was the Son of God, He died for our sins and He was resurrected.



Well, having been to plenty of Southern Baptist Churches, I'd have to somewhat agree with jason on this one.  No, they don't say this is the way, but in practice, it sure seems like it.  I mean, look in every bulletin of every Baptist church.  What do you see?  Attendance and Tithes.

Once had an old Baptist say, the only two things that Baptists worry about are "Nickels and Noses"



			
				MudDucker said:
			
		

> No Christian Church believes that works will get you to heaven.




What about Catholics?


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## Twenty five ought six (Aug 3, 2009)

Well, my mother, who is at the Baptist Church every time it opens its doors, told me that the difference was,

Baptists believe that Pharaoh daughter found baby Moses in the bullrushes,

 and 

the Methodists believe that is what she told her father.


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## Ronbow (Aug 3, 2009)

*A methodist preacher told me the difference was that the methodist can read and the baptist cant*


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## dawg2 (Aug 3, 2009)

Twenty five ought six said:


> Well, my mother, who is at the Baptist Church every time it opens its doors, told me that the difference was,
> 
> Baptists believe that Pharaoh daughter found baby Moses in the bullrushes,
> 
> ...


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## Tim L (Aug 3, 2009)

Alot more similarities than differences, alot of folks that attend one denomenation might attend the other if they move to a different town and just like the feel of a particulur church better...we have alot of former baptists and I know alot of former Methodists that attend a baptist church now.  For example (I attend Hamilton Mill UMC) we have folks that used to attend Hebron Baptist Church transfer their membership over here and we have had members transfer their membership to Hebron.   

Biggest difference in my opinion is form of baptism; baptist just use immersion while we have a choice of being sprinkled, poured (water poured over the top of their head) and immersion.  Also, we take the lords supper once a month; I think (and I may be wrong on this one) that in the baptist church it is up to the individual church to decide whether or not to take and/or how often to take communion.  Also (and this really isn't a difference) I think most baptist churches have revivals in the church buildings, while we have ours as camp meetings in the methodist campgrounds around the state.  

This is an interesting thread; yesterday we had a funeral for one of the troops in the 3rd BT; two ministers spoke; one was methodist, the other baptist, each spoke for about 20 minutes and if you had not known the difference you would have thought they came from the same denomenation.  And thats a good thing.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 3, 2009)

What about having Gay and Women ministers?


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## Tim L (Aug 3, 2009)

The Methodist Church does not allow gay ministers; end of story.  Some (and this would be the case in any denomenation) might be privately gay, but if they came out and publically stated they were gay, they would be removed. As far as women ministers I'm personally against it, but the Methodist Church has them as do some baptist churches.  There are different baptist denomenations, with some having women preachers and some not.  I think alot more of the traditional black baptist churches have women preachers, more so than the traditional white churches.  I know you have members of different races attending the same church and its not politically correct to phrase it that way, but there is some difference in practices and politics within the same denomenation between traditionally black and white churches.


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## jason4445 (Aug 3, 2009)

I don't say the Baptist believe -tithe-attend church thing - as being bad - it is just what they do to my experience.  Over the years with in laws and friends I had been to over 40 Sunday services at many First Baptist churches and each and every time tithing or money was brought up during the service including calling people to the pulpit to give testimony on how once the started tithing it was rough but after they did - Oh how their lives improved and some incident occurred were they earned more money.  

And numbers seemed important - how many came to this event and that event - how many souls were saved and how much money was collected.  I don't say this  is a terrible thing it is just what happened.  The only time it really annoyed me was my son when he was 6 went to a vacation bible school with a friend at the Baptist church and they school held a competition between the boys and girls on who could collect the most money for the church announcing at the last meeting of the day who was in the lead.  Also the Methodist don't seem to bring up the tithing issue during service so much they also use any  opportunity available to pass the plate.

Another difference is splintering.  It rarely if ever happens in a Methodist church but is a occasional event in the Baptist.  One reason for this is most all Baptist splinterings are caused by the young adults wanting a new minister and the older church people wanting to hold on to the one that has been there for 30 years.  The Methodist routinely change ministers every four to six years.  The First Baptist church here has just gone through a large splintering.  A big population of young professionals and other young adults (about 40% of the church) splintered off and started a new - not Baptist church (they still dunk though).

In a large First Methodist church you can have a wide range of beliefs which usually manifest in various adult Sunday School classes. You can have everything from very liberal Anglican/Episcopal types of beliefs to those very much like Southern Baptist.  But they all seem to tolerate each other well in the same church.

Also thanks heavens the Methodist have reexamined the bondage verses in Corinthians and now interpret it in the manner for which it was written and allow women to be ministers, however in the more older conservative members there is some underlying grumbling. about it.

As far as gays go it is more of a don't ask - don't tell type thing.  I have know several associate ministers and ministers of music that were gay, but still in the closet that were well accepted.  And my first cousin, who has been a lesbian all her life, but keeps it a private and personal thing has just been given a banquet of appreciation by her First Methodist church for all her years of service to the youth of the church.  I mean the only way one might even think of her being gay is that she is in her late 30's and never been married.

I do think that if a minister  or youth leader came out and announced themselves as being gay, they would not be kicked out of the church but be eased out of their official position.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 3, 2009)

jason4445 said:


> I don't say the Baptist believe -tithe-attend church thing - as being bad - it is just what they do to my experience.  Over the years with in laws and friends I had been to over 40 Sunday services at many First Baptist churches and each and every time tithing or money was brought up during the service including calling people to the pulpit to give testimony on how once the started tithing it was rough but after they did - Oh how their lives improved and some incident occurred were they earned more money.
> 
> And numbers seemed important - how many came to this event and that event - how many souls were saved and how much money was collected.  I don't say this  is a terrible thing it is just what happened.  The only time it really annoyed me was my son when he was 6 went to a vacation bible school with a friend at the Baptist church and they school held a competition between the boys and girls on who could collect the most money for the church announcing at the last meeting of the day who was in the lead.  Also the Methodist don't seem to bring up the tithing issue during service so much they also use any  opportunity available to pass the plate.
> 
> ...



I'd agree with the Baptist stuff mentioned as I've been a part of it.

As far as the updating on the Methodist side, I won't get into the women ministers thing in this thread.

The gay thing has me a bit concerned.  How can "don't ask, don't tell" be a good policy for the church?  Doesn't Christ know all, even our inner-most thoughts?  

How can we fool God?


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## christianhunter (Aug 3, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> I wnet to a Methodist service today.  It was just  VERY SIMILAR to a Baptist service....first Methodist service I ever went to.



Brother,You started a Thread about going to Church,and now look at it.I'm starting to believe we have heretic's on here.


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## Tim L (Aug 3, 2009)

jason4445 said:


> I don't say the Baptist believe -tithe-attend church thing - as being bad - it is just what they do to my experience.  Over the years with in laws and friends I had been to over 40 Sunday services at many First Baptist churches and each and every time tithing or money was brought up during the service including calling people to the pulpit to give testimony on how once the started tithing it was rough but after they did - Oh how their lives improved and some incident occurred were they earned more money.
> 
> And numbers seemed important - how many came to this event and that event - how many souls were saved and how much money was collected.  I don't say this  is a terrible thing it is just what happened.  The only time it really annoyed me was my son when he was 6 went to a vacation bible school with a friend at the Baptist church and they school held a competition between the boys and girls on who could collect the most money for the church announcing at the last meeting of the day who was in the lead.  Also the Methodist don't seem to bring up the tithing issue during service so much they also use any  opportunity available to pass the plate.
> 
> ...



I agree with alot of what you have said, but lets be clear about the position of the church on homosexual clergy.  While there are some that lean to allowing it, the official position of the church is that it is not allowed, period.


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## jason4445 (Aug 3, 2009)

That is true - the official position is no, but there sure is a lot of looking the other way.  If a Methodist minister came out and officially announced they would be removed, but not banned from the church and given the opportunity to  get counseling and treatment and once they officially decided they were no longer gay would be restored to a minister position.

As far as don't ask don't tell - sure Jesus and God, the Virgin  and all the Saints may know but the whole congregation sure does not need to.  Also how are you going to know who to ask?  I have known many effeminate  men to be straight as an arrow and many once married jock types to be gay.  I mean if someone joins your church and speaks with a mild effeminate lisp and holds the Bible with a limp wrist are you going to stand him up at Sunday service to declare he is not gay.  Well, unfortunately I can see it happening in in some fundamentalist churches, but in a Methodist I can't ever see calling a minister or anyone else up in front of a committee or even in private and asking them.


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## Tim L (Aug 3, 2009)

jason4445 said:


> That is true - the official position is no, but there sure is a lot of looking the other way.  If a Methodist minister came out and officially announced they would be removed, but not banned from the church and given the opportunity to  get counseling and treatment and once they officially decided they were no longer gay would be restored to a minister position.
> 
> As far as don't ask don't tell - sure Jesus and God, the Virgin  and all the Saints may know but the whole congregation sure does not need to.  Also how are you going to know who to ask?  I have known many effeminate  men to be straight as an arrow and many once married jock types to be gay.  I mean if someone joins your church and speaks with a mild effeminate lisp and holds the Bible with a limp wrist are you going to stand him up at Sunday service to declare he is not gay.  Well, unfortunately I can see it happening in in some fundamentalist churches, but in a Methodist I can't ever see calling a minister or anyone else up in front of a committee or even in private and asking them.



I know; keep in mind I'm just making a short, concise answer to the question as to the offical position of the UMC on this issue (gay clergy).  But I'll be careful now, I think we (probably my fault) are getting off the topic asked by the person that started this thread.


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## dawg2 (Aug 3, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> Brother,You started a Thread about going to Church,and now look at it.I'm starting to believe we have heretic's on here.



...it is interesting...


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## PWalls (Aug 3, 2009)

The biggest differences that I see, having gone to both of them, is OSAS and Baptism.


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## dawg2 (Aug 3, 2009)

PWalls said:


> The biggest differences that I see, having gone to both of them, is OSAS and Baptism.



They even preached about "Sola Scriptura" and "Sola Fide."  They touched briefly on "works."  I was REALLY tempted to raise my hand  It was a nice service.  I just never realized how similar their services were to Batists.


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## Tim L (Aug 3, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> They even preached about "Sola Scriptura" and "Sola Fide."  They touched briefly on "works."  I was REALLY tempted to raise my hand  It was a nice service.  I just never realized how similar their services were to Batists.



I don't know what part of the state your in, but I think it would be interesting for you to go (not all Methodist Churches are UMC) to attend a "Conservative" (thats what the denomentaion is called) methodist church...There is one in Caroll County on Highway 5 between Whitesburg and Lowell, Rotherwood Methodist.  Pretty good stuff; their our version of hardshell or prmitive baptist (and I mean that in a good way).  Jimmy Henry used to be the preacher there (of course that was over 30 years ago and he was in his 50's then....so he may have retired...from what I remember, the local congregation in the conservative methodist church decides when the preacher leaves or how long he stays.


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## Jeffriesw (Aug 4, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> Brother,You started a Thread about going to Church,and now look at it.I'm starting to believe we have heretic's on here.





Happens almost everytime...


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## Banjo (Aug 4, 2009)

chiefsquirrel83 said:


> i grew up methodist and now presbyterian...not a big difference between those either....i love baptist, methodist, and presbyterian services......more bible teachings.....i am more of a bible study type of person....i love history and philosophy



I guess that would depend upon what flavor of "Presbyterianism" you are.

I grew up in a Methodist church....never learned much of anything.  To be honest....I am not sure I ever really heard the gospel presented clearly; maybe I just wasn't listening.  I remember thinking, much to my shame now, how strange those "Baptists" were that visited a Methodist service every now and then....They BROUGHT Bibles to church.....


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## christianhunter (Aug 4, 2009)

Swamp Runner said:


> Happens almost everytime...



It's sad too!!!!


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## pigpen1 (Aug 4, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> They even preached about "Sola Scriptura" and "Sola Fide."  They touched briefly on "works."  I was REALLY tempted to raise my hand  It was a nice service.  I just never realized how similar their services were to Batists.



 Come up here to the Mountains, I will take you to a little baptist church that is in revival this week. They do not have electricity, they still use lamps for light except in the outhouses they have a small generator that provides electric light. They have a big wire cage that they put over the piano to keep the squirrels out when it is not in use.

I guarantee you it is differant than any Methodist or Baptist service you will ever attend any more.

 A good friend of mine is preaching their revival this week, come on up and I will take you.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 4, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> A good friend of mine is preaching their revival this week, come on up and I will take you.



You should go dawg...you need to be revived


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## pigpen1 (Aug 4, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> You should go dawg...you need to be revived



 You can come to RJ.....


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## MudDucker (Aug 4, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Well, having been to plenty of Southern Baptist Churches, I'd have to somewhat agree with jason on this one.  No, they don't say this is the way, but in practice, it sure seems like it.  I mean, look in every bulletin of every Baptist church.  What do you see?  Attendance and Tithes.
> 
> Once had an old Baptist say, the only two things that Baptists worry about are "Nickels and Noses"
> 
> ...



You looking for a certificate of graduation from the clown closet.  Here's your sign.


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## dawg2 (Aug 4, 2009)

Banjo said:


> I guess that would depend upon what flavor of "Presbyterianism" you are.
> 
> I grew up in a Methodist church....never learned much of anything.  To be honest....I am not sure I ever really heard the gospel presented clearly; maybe I just wasn't listening.  I remember thinking, much to my shame now, how strange those "Baptists" were that visited a Methodist service every now and then....They BROUGHT Bibles to church.....



This Methodist Church already had Bibles in all of the pews, right next to the hymnals.


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## dawg2 (Aug 4, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> Come up here to the Mountains, I will take you to a little baptist church that is in revival this week. They do not have electricity, they still use lamps for light except in the outhouses they have a small generator that provides electric light. They have a big wire cage that they put over the piano to keep the squirrels out when it is not in use.
> 
> I guarantee you it is differant than any Methodist or Baptist service you will ever attend any more.
> A good friend of mine is preaching their revival this week, come on up and I will take you.


Been there, done that!  I went to school in Dahlonega and went to a few "services" up yonder   BUT, if i go up that way again, I may take you up on that...may be something I have never seen!


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## brian lancaster (Aug 4, 2009)

homosexuals in the church as members and leaders,God forbid. God clearly tells the end results,unless they repent and are saved. this is clearly whats wrong with our country and why were probably living in the last days.


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## pigpen1 (Aug 5, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> Been there, done that!  I went to school in Dahlonega and went to a few "services" up yonder   BUT, if i go up that way again, I may take you up on that...may be something I have never seen!



 Yep, I just got home and its 12:40 am. It was definitely differant, but in a good way. I was wrong about the electric lights in the outhouse. They had lanterns. The Church had lamps and lanterns for light. They still meet like churches did a 100yrs ago. All the windows were up, pews with no padding, singing that would raise the roof top. They had testifying and shouting all over the house. I truly enjoyed it.


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## tell sackett (Aug 5, 2009)

We don't have a drool smilie, do we?


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## Dawgy_Daddy (Aug 5, 2009)

I was told that the difference between Baptist and Methodist was that Baptist wouldnt speak to you when you bumped into them at the liquor store.


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## jason4445 (Aug 5, 2009)

I thought I had heard every Baptist joke and saying there was and most told to me by Baptist, but man, nickels and noses now that's funny.  

Where I live the First Methodist and First Baptist were both very affluent churches and probably better than half the town that went to church probably went to one or the other and there was a lot of good natured elbowing and jabbing going on.  

For years during the mid 50's through the 70's when a lot of people were going to and supporting these churches there was a lot of keep up with the Jones.  Back then it even on a regular Sunday either one would have 400 or better at the 11 AM service. The Baptist would build a new Sunday School section and they would not break ground the Methodist were already talking to the contractors.  If the Methodist raised a new family life center the Baptist would do one twice as big. Big fancy new kitchens - no problem at all. Trouble is now they both have all these buildings and grounds and such and about half the people go to church as did back then and both are having really big troubles keeping everything up this day and time.  And to make matters worse for the Baptist they just had a big splintering a couple of years ago taking at least 40% of the big money people off to a new church.


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## MudDucker (Aug 5, 2009)

skoonce said:


> I was told that the difference between Baptist and Methodist was that Baptist wouldnt speak to you when you bumped into them at the liquor store.



Yea and we don't dance either.


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## Twenty five ought six (Aug 5, 2009)

MudDucker said:


> Yea and we don't dance either.



Actually, you don't have sex standing up, because you don't want anyone to think you are dancing.

Daddy taught me from an early age to always take two Baptists fishing with you, because if you only take one, he'll drink all of your beer.


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## dawg2 (Aug 5, 2009)

Twenty five ought six said:


> Actually, you don't have sex standing up, because you don't want anyone to think you are dancing.
> 
> Daddy taught me from an early age to always take two Baptists fishing with you, because if you only take one, he'll drink all of your beer.



That is true!!!


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## Jedi Pastor Ken (Aug 12, 2009)

Man, I'm not sure where even to begin on this one!  I'm still new to this site (and hunting) but I give H/T to the guys going to the UM churches (I'll let your pastors know! .

If you check out the Apostle's Creed (mentioned somewhere in here) or Nicene Creed, it lists the core beliefs of the Christian faith (fyi: holy catholic is not Roman Catholic.  Catholic means universal.  I know, it is old english stuff).  It is always a reminder we're not that far apart - seriously.

I'm pastor of Crossroads UMC in north Paulding, GA and I'm preaching a sermon series called "United" along with Northstar Church, Westridge Church and Cedarcrest Church all of which are Baptist churches.  We've met together and prayed together believing this is important - to focus on our similarities and not our differences.

There are somethings worth getting really bent out of shape about - habitual, unconfessed sin of any kind in the life of a pastor must be addressed: we do not knowingly ordain active, practicing homosexuals nor do we condone it being done.  Have clergy come out? Yes, but they have been dismissed and/or disciplined as much as other denominations.  You simply can't justify in the Bible.  Period.

As to baptism...Look, you get saved out duck hunting - I'll immerse you right there in the water if you want!  Seriously, I backpacked into the woods to do that for a kid.  The UMC recognizes all forms of baptism - sprinkling, pouring and immersion.

In the United Methodist Church, our heritage is Anglican - we've kept some of that tradition around.  The fact is, we're about making disciples of Jesus Christ - period.  Are there some things wrong in our denom?  Yes but show me one that doesn't have problems according to some Christian!  Many of us have been called here by God to keep us holding to the mission of making disciples.  

Okay, nuff said.  I've got to get back to preparing my sermon for Sunday!  Please know, my e-mail is always open to questions and discussions about following Jesus (and all probably talk about the UMC too if you want).

Loving Life!


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## farmasis (Aug 12, 2009)

I have been Southern Baptist all my life. My signature says it all in what I think one must do to be saved.

In no way do Baptist believe in anything but the blood of Christ for salvation in any churchg that I have been to.

Definately not baptism. Most of the ones saying that Baptism is symbolic and not a part of salvation has been Baptist on here, to my knowledge. And believe me, if Baptist thought tithing would get you in heaven, then only 20% of us are going.


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## farmasis (Aug 12, 2009)

Jedi Pastor Ken said:


> Man, I'm not sure where even to begin on this one! I'm still new to this site (and hunting) but I give H/T to the guys going to the UM churches (I'll let your pastors know! .!


 
Welcome Pastor Ken. Good to have you here, brother! Keep using your force!

This forum will make you  sometimes. Some comments will make your . You will see so many believers acting like this  that you will log off most times with this look on your face .


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## redneckcamo (Aug 12, 2009)

Jedi Pastor Ken said:


> Man, I'm not sure where even to begin on this one!  I'm still new to this site (and hunting) but I give H/T to the guys going to the UM churches (I'll let your pastors know! .
> 
> If you check out the Apostle's Creed (mentioned somewhere in here) or Nicene Creed, it lists the core beliefs of the Christian faith (fyi: holy catholic is not Roman Catholic.  Catholic means universal.  I know, it is old english stuff).  It is always a reminder we're not that far apart - seriously.
> 
> ...



great post young jedi !!    stay away from the darkside we must    glad you made it too woodys pastor


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## dawg2 (Aug 12, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Welcome Pastor Ken. Good to have you here, brother! Keep using your force!
> 
> This forum will make you  sometimes. Some comments will make your . You will see so many believers acting like this  that you will log off most times with this look on your face .



Yep!


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## Jeffriesw (Aug 12, 2009)

Welcome Jedi Pastor.


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## kiltedpresbyterian (Aug 13, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> I wnet to a Methodist service today.  It was just  VERY SIMILAR to a Baptist service....first Methodist service I ever went to.



Dawg- They are just baptists that can read....


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## Jeffriesw (Aug 13, 2009)

kiltedpresbyterian said:


> Dawg- They are just baptists that can read....



Hey, I can reed jus fine


----------



## kiltedpresbyterian (Aug 13, 2009)

Swamp Runner said:


> Hey, I can reed jus fine



You are really a Methodist then my friend...


----------



## dawg2 (Aug 13, 2009)

kiltedpresbyterian said:


> Dawg- They are just baptists that can read....



Holy


----------



## mtnwoman (Aug 13, 2009)

MudDucker said:


> Wrong, we believe that all you have to do is to believe is that Jesus was the Son of God, He died for our sins and He was resurrected.



I agree.


----------



## mtnwoman (Aug 13, 2009)

Swamp Runner said:


> Hey, I can reed jus fine



I thank it's spellin yous havin truble with fiend.


----------



## starmello (Aug 14, 2009)

Jedi Pastor Ken said:


> Man, I'm not sure where even to begin on this one!  I'm still new to this site (and hunting) but I give H/T to the guys going to the UM churches (I'll let your pastors know! .
> 
> If you check out the Apostle's Creed (mentioned somewhere in here) or Nicene Creed, it lists the core beliefs of the Christian faith (fyi: holy catholic is not Roman Catholic.  Catholic means universal.  I know, it is old english stuff).  It is always a reminder we're not that far apart - seriously.
> 
> ...




Great post JediPastorKen.  
My dad is a long time United Methodist Pastor and his name is also Ken.  I have heard him say many times that if the United Methodist ever starts ordaining gay pastors, he will leave the UMC.  Now, I've also heard him say that he would never turn a homosexual person away from the church.  Afterall, how can you minister to them if you ban them from entering.  God hates the sin...not the sinner.

Tony


----------



## Banjo (Aug 14, 2009)

Should any denomination allow an unrepentant homosexual to be a member of the church? How about in the choir or as the organist?  

Just as a side.....the UMC also supports abortion.  How is that justified...http://www.rcrc.org/we_affirm.html

When women begin being ordained.....so goes the church.  Homosexuality and abortion are often either ignored or accepted.  Feminism runs rampant....and many of the men are weak and effeminate.


----------



## earl (Aug 14, 2009)

So ,if you are UMC, your chances of going to hades are pretty good, huh? I did not know that.


----------



## kiltedpresbyterian (Aug 14, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Should any denomination allow an unrepentant homosexual to be a member of the church? How about in the choir or as the organist?
> 
> Just as a side.....the UMC also supports abortion.  How is that justified...http://www.rcrc.org/we_affirm.html
> 
> When women begin being ordained.....so goes the church.  Homosexuality and abortion are often either ignored or accepted.  Feminism runs rampant....and many of the men are weak and effeminate.



op2:


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 14, 2009)

starmello said:


> God hates the sin...not the sinner.



So will a person who continues to live in sin be loved by God or dammed to eternity in he11?



Banjo said:


> Should any denomination allow an unrepentant homosexual to be a member of the church? How about in the choir or as the organist?
> 
> Just as a side.....the UMC also supports abortion.  How is that justified...http://www.rcrc.org/we_affirm.html
> 
> When women begin being ordained.....so goes the church.  Homosexuality and abortion are often either ignored or accepted.  Feminism runs rampant....and many of the men are weak and effeminate.





earl said:


> So ,if you are UMC, your chances of going to hades are pretty good, huh? I did not know that.



Earl...it goes about with any denomination/church.  How can you believe in what the Bible says, yet go to a church that doesn't preach the Bible?  No...I'm not saying every UMC church doesn't preach the Bible.

However, it is a bit of a contradiction that starmello posted.  Kinda like a person being a gun owner/hunter yet being a member of PETA.  The two just don't go hand-in-hand.


----------



## earl (Aug 14, 2009)

I just think Banjo painted with a pretty wide brush.

''Homosexuality and abortion are often either ignored or accepted. Feminism runs rampant....and many of the men are weak and effeminate.''

In the UMC's I have visited ,I didn't see any girlieboys. But then I don't go looking for them either.

 As far as the hunter/peta goes ,see my sig line.


----------



## Huntinfool (Aug 14, 2009)

earl said:


> I just think Banjo painted with a pretty wide brush.
> 
> ''Homosexuality and abortion are often either ignored or accepted. Feminism runs rampant....and many of the men are weak and effeminate.''
> 
> ...



Excellent post earl....

There are a LOT of very wide brushes being passed around these days.


----------



## earl (Aug 14, 2009)

Yep and some of these new guys have them new nonskid brushes.


----------



## Huntinfool (Aug 14, 2009)

Rookies.....what are ya gonna do?


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 14, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Rookies.....what are ya gonna do?



Well...you never know if they're a rookie or if they're a former user that has been re-incarnated.


----------



## dawg2 (Aug 14, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Well...you never know if they're a rookie or if they're a former user that has been re-incarnated.



You can usually tell


----------



## Jeffriesw (Aug 14, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> You can usually tell



Yep, they sound eerily familiar


----------



## Huntinfool (Aug 14, 2009)

Either way it's gonna be fun to jump in the sand box with him.

Hey jedi-pastor!  I went to Asbury (undergrad) and my dad graduated from the seminary WAY back in the day.  Welcome man!  It's an interesting place to hang out.


----------



## starmello (Aug 14, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> So will a person who continues to live in sin be loved by God or dammed to eternity in he11?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There is no contradiction in what I said at all.  If a person continues to live in sin, and does not accept salvation, he/she will go to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----.   Are you saying that God does not love someone if they are a sinner?  If so, why did God send His Son to die for a bunch of sinners......sounds alittle like
love to me.

 Anywho....when we get to Heaven, we are all going to probably find out that these things we call, denominations,
really just do not matter...  They probably should be referred to a abominations, anyway.lol

Tony


----------



## starmello (Aug 14, 2009)

Sorry, didn't know that the word He11 was considered profanity.....

Gee, I only used that word once and it made it look like I cursed up a blue streak....

Tony


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 14, 2009)

starmello said:


> Gee, I only used that word once and it made it look like I cursed up a blue streak....



You must be methodist


----------



## Banjo (Aug 14, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> You must be methodist


----------



## Banjo (Aug 14, 2009)

Look....if you are part of the UMC you are supporting these things BECAUSE your denomination where you tithe supports it.  Where do the tithes go that are collected each Sunday....to the local church or to the UMC?

I grew up United Methodist....The church I attended just had a woman preacher that finished up her time there.  She looked extremely manly, and had never been married.  Was she a homosexual????  Don't know, rumor had it yes.  I do remember her bringing a friend over to my mother's house for a condolence call when my grandmother died.  We didn't know the friend from Adam's house cat, nor was she a member or officer of the church....I think she had moved to our small town with the minister when she took her pastorate...but didn't stay.

Again....I don't know if she was a homosexual or not....but there are times in life that when it looks and quacks like a duck,  it very well may be one.


----------



## Jedi Pastor Ken (Aug 14, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Either way it's gonna be fun to jump in the sand box with him.
> 
> Hey jedi-pastor!  I went to Asbury (undergrad) and my dad graduated from the seminary WAY back in the day.  Welcome man!  It's an interesting place to hang out.



When were you there?  My wife was at AC from '88-'92.

As to the other comments in this little thread that have a risen, it just isn't fun nor is it productive to the Kingdom of God.  As mentioned, the brushes are too broad and links mean little if what is there isn't read.  Sorry if I don't measure up to your litmus tests for perfection.  As I said earlier: 

"Are there some things wrong in our denom? Yes but show me one that doesn't have problems according to some Christian!  Many of us have been called here [the UMC] by God to keep us holding to the mission of making disciples. "

As I said this past Sunday, you can use the perspective of the microscope to examine the differences or find the unity.  You can use the perspective of the telescope to see how far apart we are or how we orbit around what is central.

I've got enough to do as a church planter in reaching unchurched and dechurched and telling them about the Good New of Jesus Christ.  And in my little free time, I will enjoy God's creation and hopefully put some of it on my table!


----------



## Banjo (Aug 14, 2009)

earl said:


> I just think Banjo painted with a pretty wide brush.
> 
> ''Homosexuality and abortion are often either ignored or accepted. Feminism runs rampant....and many of the men are weak and effeminate.''
> 
> ...



I will narrow it down to include:

Conservative Judaism
Rabbinical Assembly
United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism
Women’s League for Conservative Judaism

Episcopal Church


Ethical Culture 
American Ethical Union National Service Conference 

Humanist Judaism
Society for Humanistic Judaism

Presbyterian Church (USA)

Reconstructionist Judaism
Jewish Reconstructionist Federation
Reconstructionist Rabbinical Association

Reform Judaism
Central Conference of American Rabbis
North American Federation of Temple Youth
Union for Reform Judaism
Women of Reform Judaism, The Federation of Temple Sisterhoods
Women’s Rabbinic Network of Central Conference of American Rabbis

United Church of Christ


United Methodist Church
General Board of Church and Society, United Methodist Church
General Board of Global Ministries, Women’s Division, United Methodist Church

Unitarian Universalist
Unitarian Universalist Association
Unitarian Universalist Women’s Federation
Young Religious Unitarian Universalists
Continental Unitarian Universalist Young Adult Network

Caucuses/Organizations 
American Jewish Committee
American Jewish Congress
Anti-Defamation League
Catholics for Choice
Christian Lesbians Out (CLOUT)
Church of the Brethren Women’s Caucus
Disciples for Choice
Episcopal Urban Caucus
Episcopal Women’s Caucus
Hadassah, WZOA
Jewish Women International
Lutheran Women’s Caucus
Methodist Federation for Social Action
NA’AMAT USA
National Council of Jewish Women
Presbyterians Affirming Reproductive Options (PARO)
Women’s American ORT
YWCA of the USA

These are all the rcrc affiliates......

http://www.rcrc.org/about/members.cfm

If I belonged to any of these organizations, I would opt out immediately....especially if my tithes and offerings were supporting it.


----------



## starmello (Aug 14, 2009)

Banjo said:


>



Now thats funny right there!!

Actually, I'm a Methodist Preachers Kid.....You know what
they say about PK's...


Tony


----------



## Banjo (Aug 14, 2009)

> As I said this past Sunday, you can use the perspective of the microscope to examine the differences or find the unity. You can use the perspective of the telescope to see how far apart we are or how we orbit around what is central.



Or you can use God's Holy Word and measure everything through it and by it.  We can strive to live a life pleasing to God by living lives and worshiping Him as He has revealed for us to do in His infallible Word.

As a side, please don't think that I meant you were an effeminate man because you are a pastor in the UMC.  I don't know you personally and could not rightly make that assessment.  I do know that where women rule and lead, the men are usually weak and defer to them.  I have seen it time and time again.  Perhaps it is just human nature as evidenced in The Fall.

I hope there is a conservative movement within the UMC.  I think it has strayed greatly from what Wesley intended.


----------



## Huntinfool (Aug 14, 2009)

Jedi Pastor Ken said:


> When were you there?  My wife was at AC from '88-'92.



She was there with my older brother (who graduated in 93).  I was there 93-97 and then back again for master's from 98-01.

BTW, Banjo, most of the money collected on Sunday at a UM church does stay at the local church.  The church pays apportionments to the larger denom, yes (and actually some have stopped doing that....and no I'm not a member but grew up there).

Bottom line is that most folks attend the local church because of the local church and do not know anything about what "The UM Church" at large does or does not do.  They do not support many of those things and there is a growing HUGE split in that church because of some of that stuff.

Some of it may condemn the denomination....but it says nothing about the local members.  

You support your government by paying taxes don't you?  Follow your logic and you and your hubby should be packing your things and moving out of country!

Yes, one is voluntary and one isn't....but either way you're contributing to the support of abortion.  Stop paying taxes or move.  Either way, you'll be more consistent in your position.


----------



## Banjo (Aug 14, 2009)

> You support your government by paying taxes don't you? Follow your logic and you and your hubby should be packing your things and moving out of country!
> 
> Yes, one is voluntary and one isn't....but either way you're contributing to the support of abortion. Stop paying taxes or move. Either way, you'll be more consistent in your position.



Man...we think alike.  I knew that would be raised, but wondered by whom.

One is not voluntary....you are right.  Believe me when I say that I would not pay one cent in income taxes if I could stay out of jail.   I am also actively trying to fight this through campaigning, voting, making political donations, etc.

Now....the other is our religious duty before God.  I believe in tithing; I believe God requires it.  There is something insidious in a Christian denomination, propagating abortion through financing these types of organizations.  What is even worse is when the congregants have it brought to their attention, and yet remain silent.  I agree, your average UM does not know this type of thing goes on.....but they should.


----------



## Banjo (Aug 14, 2009)

Another point....if you don't think the UM are prohomosexual, go to the publishing company:  Cokesbury and do a search on homosexuality.  Flip through a few pages and read the book content.  Here is  an example:

http://www.cokesbury.com/forms/ProductDetail.aspx?pid=559010

Here is the book description for Men, Homosexuality and the Gods....An Exploration Into the Religious Significance of Male Homosexuality in Word Perspective


Description
Men, Homosexuality, and the Gods is an eye-opening look at a representative sampling of religions and their edicts concerning gay sex. This book examines the origins of historic holy directives involving homosexuality--whether forbidden, tolerated, or mandatory--and establishes a link between theology, sex paradigms, and the sensitive issue of masculinity. This intriguing text calls for a new approach to gay rights as a freedom of religion issue and shows how the modern homophile movements are in effect redefining masculinity to obliterate the stigma of being a sexually receptive man. Easy-to-read and free of technical language, this volume is for anyone who has an academic, professional, or personal interest in theology and homosexuality. 
The author is available for speaking engagements and can be contacted at Ronldlong@aol.com


----------



## Jedi Pastor Ken (Aug 14, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Look....if you are part of the UMC you are supporting these things BECAUSE your denomination where you tithe supports it.  Where do the tithes go that are collected each Sunday....to the local church or to the UMC?



What are you privy to that I am not?  On average, 88% of it stays in the local church.  The other 12% goes to the connection of the UMC - it supports missions worldwide and local including the start of my church and others.  It goes to feeding children and providing clean water throughout the world and here in the U.S.A.  Yes, there are some things I don't agree with it supports BUT I and many others are working and praying to change that.



Banjo said:


> I grew up United Methodist....The church I attended just had a woman preacher that finished up her time there.  She looked extremely manly, and had never been married.  Was she a homosexual????  Don't know, rumor had it yes.  I do remember her bringing a friend over to my mother's house for a condolence call when my grandmother died.  We didn't know the friend from Adam's house cat, nor was she a member or officer of the church....I think she had moved to our small town with the minister when she took her pastorate...but didn't stay.
> 
> Again....I don't know if she was a homosexual or not....but there are times in life that when it looks and quacks like a duck,  it very well may be one.



I've not heard any member of the UMC here on this forum defend homosexuality-I sure don't think I have.  So what about overweight pastors?  We know they are overweight.  Wouldn't that be gluttony?  Is that not sin?

Banjo, I don't know what more to say.  I'm sorry, I don't have the luxury of 1. knowing your church/denomination now and 2. if I did, I see no point in going after what I might disagree with in it.  

My hope is that rather than be so adamant in being critical, you would be zealous in prayer for the majority of the Christians in the United Methodist Church that we would not only hold fast in the faith but return to the roots of Scriptural Holiness.


----------



## dawg2 (Aug 14, 2009)

..never thought this thread would go this way...I was just making an observation about a service I went too....interesting...


----------



## Huntinfool (Aug 14, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Another point....if you don't think the UM are prohomosexual, go to the publishing company:  Cokesbury and do a search on homosexuality.  Flip through a few pages and read the book content.  Here is  an example:
> 
> http://www.cokesbury.com/forms/ProductDetail.aspx?pid=559010
> 
> ...



Trust me....Cokesbury is not pro-homosexual my dear.  

You should know not to judge a book by its...


----------



## Jedi Pastor Ken (Aug 14, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Or you can use God's Holy Word and measure everything through it and by it.  We can strive to live a life pleasing to God by living lives and worshiping Him as He has revealed for us to do in His infallible Word.



I'm not sure if you understood my point.  The UMC agrees with this stance.  I agree with what you're saying.  What I was trying to get at is the unity Jesus prayed for.  I'm aware of much of what is wrong in the UMC.  I also have opinions about what is wrong in other churches BUT I'm not in them NOR will being critical help to build relationships with those in them NOR will I be able to change them.

For all the faults I'm reading about the UMC, I'm not seeing anyone taking time to research the incredible amount of good done for God's Kingdom either or all those who have come to faith in Jesus.  This post began with one person's experience that maybe, Baptist and Methodist had more in common than they first thought.  I would agree and I'd rather focus on those.  




Banjo said:


> As a side, please don't think that I meant you were an effeminate man because you are a pastor in the UMC.  I don't know you personally and could not rightly make that assessment.  I do know that where women rule and lead, the men are usually weak and defer to them.  I have seen it time and time again.  Perhaps it is just human nature as evidenced in The Fall.



Wow, yeah, not sure how to respond to this one.  I think I'm going to just let this one just sit there.



Banjo said:


> I hope there is a conservative movement within the UMC.  I think it has strayed greatly from what Wesley intended.



You don't have to hope - it is there - the majority of the UMC around the world is part of it.  Again, I ask that rather than seek to point out the differences but look to what unites and pray for those of us who are remaining faithful and standing firm for Jesus Christ.


----------



## Jedi Pastor Ken (Aug 14, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> ..never thought this thread would go this way...I was just making an observation about a service I went too....interesting...



Dude - see what you did!!!  

I appreciated your observation and thought you were spot on.  Dawg, I'd break bread with you anytime!


----------



## Banjo (Aug 14, 2009)

Jedi Pastor Ken said:


> What are you privy to that I am not?  On average, 88% of it stays in the local church.  The other 12% goes to the connection of the UMC - it supports missions worldwide and local including the start of my church and others.  It goes to feeding children and providing clean water throughout the world and here in the U.S.A.  Yes, there are some things I don't agree with it supports BUT I and many others are working and praying to change that.
> 
> I would most definitely agree that those are good things...but part of that 12%  and perhaps even part of some local churchs' 88% is helping to fund things like the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice.  Because you are part of that denomination, you are supporting that....whether you agree or not.  There are other denominations that don't support it....other Methodist denominations... you could choose to be a pastor in one of those.
> 
> ...



Critical.....or just truthful.  Sometimes the truth hurts.  Ordaining women and homosexuals (even celibate ones) violates the commands of Holy Scripture.  The promotion of abortion does too.  It is okay for me to say so.....after all, God said it first.  You see, I don't believe in "open minds."  I believe in God-centered, Bible-oriented minds.  There are some things that we are not allowed to have "open minds" about.   I do believe in "open hearts"....in that you love people enough to tell them the truth.  I also believe in "open doors"....in that the church should always welcome repentant sinners within their membership.

I do hope and pray there is a remnant left within the UMC.    I just wonder why they don't either stand up, or come out of it and start over......from the ground up.


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 14, 2009)

Banjo said:


> "open minds" "open hearts"open doors





Banjo...you're too much.


----------



## Lead Poison (Aug 14, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Critical.....or just truthful.  Sometimes the truth hurts.  Ordaining women and homosexuals (even celibate ones) violates the commands of Holy Scripture.  The promotion of abortion does too.  It is okay for me to say so.....after all, God said it first.  You see, I don't believe in "open minds."  I believe in God-centered, Bible-oriented minds.  There are some things that we are not allowed to have "open minds" about.   I do believe in "open hearts"....in that you love people enough to tell them the truth.  I also believe in "open doors"....in that the church should always welcome repentant sinners within their membership.
> 
> I do hope and pray there is a remnant left within the UMC.    I just wonder why they don't either stand up, or come out of it and start over......from the ground up.



Excellent post Banjo!  

I couldn't agree more!!!!!!


----------



## dawg2 (Aug 14, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Critical.....or just truthful.  Sometimes the truth hurts.  Ordaining women and homosexuals (even celibate ones) violates the commands of Holy Scripture.  The promotion of abortion does too.  It is okay for me to say so.....after all, God said it first.  You see, I don't believe in "open minds."  I believe in God-centered, Bible-oriented minds.  There are some things that we are not allowed to have "open minds" about.   I do believe in "open hearts"....in that you love people enough to tell them the truth.  I also believe in "open doors"....in that the church should always welcome repentant sinners within their membership.
> 
> I do hope and pray there is a remnant left within the UMC.    I just wonder why they don't either stand up, or come out of it and start over......from the ground up.




Banjo: On the Gluttony part, is there somewhere in the Bible that gives the appropriate and acceptable dimensions of women and men so that we avoid being gluttonous?  What if they have endocrine issues


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 14, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> Banjo: On the Gluttony part, is there somewhere in the Bible that gives the appropriate and acceptable dimensions of women and men so that we avoid being gluttonous?  What if they have endocrine issues



No mercy allowed Dawg...no mercy allowed.  It is all in the direction of the belt buckle.  It points out...you're okay.  It points down...your a glutton.


That is why many old fat women are okay.  They just wear the one piece table clothes over themselves so no belt buckle....so they're exempt


----------



## Banjo (Aug 14, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> Banjo: On the Gluttony part, is there somewhere in the Bible that gives the appropriate and acceptable dimensions of women and men so that we avoid being gluttonous?  What if they have endocrine issues



Sorry Dawg....I don't know exactly where that is....maybe it is in one of those Deuterocanonical books....

Look, I have tried to tell my husband for years that I have endocrine and hormonal issues.... he ain't buying it.....He seems to think my weight is directly connected to the amount of time I spend eating...Go figure.


----------



## Banjo (Aug 14, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Banjo...you're too much.



I wasn't trying to be funny....I am working on my literary and writing skills....I thought that I could weave that in to make my commentary more pertinent.

You should have realized that by now.  How long have we been fighting it out on this forum???


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 14, 2009)

Banjo said:


> I wasn't trying to be funny....I am working on my literary and writing skills....I thought that I could weave that in to make my commentary more pertinent.
> 
> You should have realized that by now.  How long have we been fighting it out on this forum???



I just think it is amazing how you weaved the commercial into your post.  touche


----------



## Jedi Pastor Ken (Aug 14, 2009)

Banjo said:


> I do hope and pray there is a remnant left within the UMC.    I just wonder why they don't either stand up, or come out of it and start over......from the ground up.



Apparently I've not convinced you this has been and is occurring.  You seem to not care that many of us, both clergy and lay people have stood up to these sins and in some cases lost ministries (myself included).  More times, we have WON!  

We haven't left the UMC because, (and this may surprise you) through study of the Bible, prayer and fasting, we BELIEVE this is God's church and God has called us to stand firm and preach the Word of God.

Apparently this isn't good enough for you.  Sorry, bout that.


----------



## Banjo (Aug 14, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> I just think it is amazing how you weaved the commercial into your post.  touche




I am glad you appreciated it; I try.


----------



## earl (Aug 14, 2009)

Couple of questions...

dawg , did youget hit on by any of the guys or beat up by the women ?

Jedi Pastor Ken, well, are you ?

Banjo, are you sure you aren't a preacher  ? 

Personally  I think there is a lot to be said for fat old women in a floweredy mu-mu !!!!!!!!


----------



## Banjo (Aug 14, 2009)

Jedi Pastor Ken said:


> Apparently I've not convinced you this has been and is occurring.  You seem to not care that many of us, both clergy and lay people have stood up to these sins and in some cases lost ministries (myself included).  More times, we have WON!
> 
> We haven't left the UMC because, (and this may surprise you) through study of the Bible, prayer and fasting, we BELIEVE this is God's church and God has called us to stand firm and preach the Word of God.
> 
> Apparently this isn't good enough for you.  Sorry, bout that.




Friend, it is hard to steer a ship of that size, especially when she is eaten up with liberalism and those who would compromise God's Word.  

I have seen several families attempt to do this (in other denominations).  I don't know one that hasn't eventually compromised their beliefs in order to stay.  Not only have they suffered spiritually, but their children have as well.

Especially pastors who are trying to swim against the current......From personal experience, I know it is hard enough being a pastor's family when you have support from your denomination.  I can't imagine what it would be like for a pastor's family who was having to "fight that fight" with his own denomination.


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 14, 2009)

Banjo said:


> I have seen several families attempt to do this (in other denominations).  I don't know one that hasn't eventually compromised their beliefs in order to stay.  Not only have they suffered spiritually, but their children have as well.



Or they stand for the truth and get chewed up and spit out.  Again, not only them, but their children as well.


----------



## Banjo (Aug 14, 2009)

> Banjo, are you sure you aren't a preacher ?



Come on, Earl.  You know better.  I am just married to one....and a manly man preacher at that


----------



## Jedi Pastor Ken (Aug 14, 2009)

earl said:


> Couple of questions...
> 
> dawg , did youget hit on by any of the guys or beat up by the women ?
> 
> ...



Can't speak for the others but I'm happily married with two kids and eyes for only my Kentucky woman!  Lost a (testicle) to testicular cancer but that didn't change anything.  

I came in ninth this summer out of 29 men in the Griffin swim met in 50 yard freestyle and also swam the 100.  I'm on the bike 4 times a week to stay in shape.  I hiked out 1 1/2 miles to shoot my first turkey of the season (21lbs).  Was a turkey and left my call.  Hiked back out to get it and dropped the second (19lbs).  

Don't know your definition of effiminate but I've never been accused of it by those who know me.


----------



## Huntinfool (Aug 14, 2009)

She is half eaten with liberalism....and half eaten with staunch, full blooded, God fearing conservatives.

The church will likely split and the "remnant" will be large.  Don't worry about that.


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 14, 2009)

Jedi Pastor Ken said:


> Can't speak for the others but I'm happily married with two kids and eyes for only my Kentucky woman!  Lost a (testicle) to testicular cancer but that didn't change anything.   .



okay....way too much info.


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## Banjo (Aug 14, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> She is half eaten with liberalism....and half eaten with staunch, full blooded, God fearing conservatives.
> 
> The church will likely split and the "remnant" will be large.  Don't worry about that.



Good news indeed......I pray that God will cleanse His bride everywhere....no matter what denomination.


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## dawg2 (Aug 14, 2009)

earl said:


> Couple of questions...
> 
> dawg , did youget hit on by any of the guys or beat up by the women ?
> 
> ...



No women beat me up, but all the guys kept wanting to shake my hand  Maybe they were gropers!

I saw no homosexual activity or endorsment in this church.  I can't speak for all of them, just this one.  Never been to a Methodist service until now.  Just looked like a bunch of Baptists to me


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## earl (Aug 14, 2009)

Jedi Pastor Ken said:


> Can't speak for the others but I'm happily married with two kids and eyes for only my Kentucky woman!  Lost a (testicle) to testicular cancer but that didn't change anything.
> 
> I came in ninth this summer out of 29 men in the Griffin swim met in 50 yard freestyle and also swam the 100.  I'm on the bike 4 times a week to stay in shape.  I hiked out 1 1/2 miles to shoot my first turkey of the season (21lbs).  Was a turkey and left my call.  Hiked back out to get it and dropped the second (19lbs).
> 
> Don't know your definition of effiminate but I've never been accused of it by those who know me.



JPK, I meant no offense and was being sarcastic ,but all the same ,glad you are on our side.


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## earl (Aug 14, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> No women beat me up, but all the guys kept wanting to shake my hand  Maybe they were gropers!
> 
> I saw no homosexual activity or endorsment in this church.  I can't speak for all of them, just this one.  Never been to a Methodist service until now.  Just looked like a bunch of Baptists to me





You know,now that I think about it ,there s a lot of man hugging in the Baptist chuches I've been to .


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## earl (Aug 14, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Come on, Earl.  You know better.  I am just married to one....and a manly man preacher at that



And a very manly man to be able to keep up with you, I bet.


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## Big7 (Aug 15, 2009)

Banjo said:


> I will narrow it down to include:
> 
> Catholics for Choice




From their OWN SITE:
http://www.catholicsforchoice.org/

"Catholic or not, the Catholic church’s role in influencing public policy affects YOU through limiting the availability of reproductive health services."

It's on the front page to the far right.

banjo... hate to bust your bubble... Catholics do not
have a "choice".

You are either a  practicing Catholic that follows the rules or you are not. It is really that simple.

By this organization's own admission, "the Catholic church’s role in influencing public policy affects YOU through limiting the availability of reproductive health services."

We don't do pro-choice.


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## dawg2 (Aug 15, 2009)

Big7 said:


> From their OWN SITE:
> http://www.catholicsforchoice.org/
> 
> "Catholic or not, the Catholic church’s role in influencing public policy affects YOU through limiting the availability of reproductive health services."
> ...



I missed that one.  Gotta agree, abortion is not birth control.


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## PWalls (Aug 15, 2009)

earl said:


> You know,now that I think about it ,there s a lot of man hugging in the Baptist chuches I've been to .



Amen. Takes a real man to hug another in Brothery Love.


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## earl (Aug 16, 2009)

Just don't let Banjo see you doing it.


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## GaBuckSlammer (Aug 16, 2009)

Whew, just goes to show that mankind can argue over any and everything.

As a youth minister in a Southern Baptist Church, I can say I have been around enough churches to see individuals practicing and proclaiming differently than their denominational doctrines state.  And granted, at times, I have seen these individuals group up into their clicks.

However, just because I serve my Lord and my God at a Baptist Church, I do not consider myself a Baptist. I consider myself a child of God, a joint heir with Christ, as I have confessed my sins, I have asked for his forgiveness, and I have surrendered my life to follow after him.  I wanna serve and worship my God and my Father in Heaven, not the Baptist Faith and Message statement or the Calvinist doctrine or any other for that matter.

I believe that denomination arguments, Bible translation disputes, etc are just more tools that Satan can use to divide and conquer.  

Heaven isnt gonna have Baptist Boulevard and Methodist Lane, nor is it gonna have White zones and black zones.  For those of us who reach Heaven we will worship as one the Creator and Redeemer, on our knees and equally.


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## tell sackett (Aug 16, 2009)

GaBuckSlammer said:


> Whew, just goes to show that mankind can argue over any and everything.
> 
> As a youth minister in a Southern Baptist Church, I can say I have been around enough churches to see individuals practicing and proclaiming differently than their denominational doctrines state.  And granted, at times, I have seen these individuals group up into their clicks.
> 
> ...


Now that there is a real good post.


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## Jedi Pastor Ken (Aug 17, 2009)

tell sackett said:


> Now that there is a real good post.





Here! Here!  Maybe the best one since the one that started it.


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## Banjo (Aug 17, 2009)

GaBuckSlammer said:


> Whew, just goes to show that mankind can argue over any and everything.
> 
> As a youth minister in a Southern Baptist Church, I can say I have been around enough churches to see individuals practicing and proclaiming differently than their denominational doctrines state.  And granted, at times, I have seen these individuals group up into their clicks.
> 
> ...



I for one think denominations are good.  Let me ask  you this, Buckslammer:

If I come to your church, are they going to allow me to have the minister place the Mark of the Covenant on my children?  Now, I believe God has commanded it in the Old Testament and never revoked that command......and I would be sinning not to do so (remember what happened when Moses did not).  My eschatology is probably a little different too....am I going to have to read Tim LaHaye books and discuss the Rapture?  I also have a problem with Decisional Regeneration....will my family have to sit through the altar call week after week?  I believe that churches should be run by ruling and teaching elders...not the congregational vote.  The list could go on at some of the major differences.......

We need to belong to churches/denominations where our beliefs are the same or similar...not compromise our beliefs for the sake of "unity."  There are differences and it is a lot easier to get about doing the work of the Kingdom if we aren't caught up in arguing in our own churches/denomination.  

I believe that denominational "arguments" (I think of them more as debate and dialogue) are good.  It makes one think through their position.  It allows one to study the Word in order to clarify things.  Woody's has been quite beneficial to me personally.  I enjoy interacting with everybody....and it has been a place where I can dialogue with others who are different.


----------



## pigpen1 (Aug 17, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> No women beat me up, but all the guys kept wanting to shake my hand  Maybe they were gropers!
> 
> I saw no homosexual activity or endorsment in this church.  I can't speak for all of them, just this one.  Never been to a Methodist service until now.  Just looked like a bunch of Baptists to me



 I went to a Episcopal Church a while back and it was just like the Catholics.


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## chiefsquirrel83 (Aug 17, 2009)

whew i have never seen such narrow minded post....heaven is a united place....not a place just for methodists or baptist or presbyterian or catholic!...accept Jesus as my savior and lord and ask for forgiveness everyday! i grew up methodists and now presbyterian...either way....i accept christ the same!


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## Jeffriesw (Aug 17, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> I missed that one.  Gotta agree, abortion is not birth control.



Nope, It is Murder.


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## GaBuckSlammer (Aug 17, 2009)

Banjo said:


> I for one think denominations are good.  Let me ask  you this, Buckslammer:
> 
> If I come to your church, are they going to allow me to have the minister place the Mark of the Covenant on my children?  Now, I believe God has commanded it in the Old Testament and never revoked that command......and I would be sinning not to do so (remember what happened when Moses did not).  My eschatology is probably a little different too....am I going to have to read Tim LaHaye books and discuss the Rapture?  I also have a problem with Decisional Regeneration....will my family have to sit through the altar call week after week?  I believe that churches should be run by ruling and teaching elders...not the congregational vote.  The list could go on at some of the major differences.......
> 
> ...



I respect your position. But in regards to Moses, he lived under the law. We today do not live under the law, but rather we live under grace. Christ came to fulfill what obedience/disobedience to the law could not. I do not mean to say or imply that the law is of no use. But rather I believe that no matter how hard I too try to live by it, and often make mistakes, the grace of Christ covers me.   

We do not preach Tim LaHaye books, we preach the Word of God. Many in our church stand differently in regards to the rapture. But we don't preach the rapture, we preach Christ crucified, and risen from the grave.  I personally believe if we are saved, what do we have to fear about when the rapture is? Does God not promise to never leave nor forsake His children? I believe we should be saved and ready for it anyday. I'm not a pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, nor a premillenialist or post. I believe if we are saved and have a relationship, not a religion or a denomination, with Jesus Christ it will pan out. So does that make me a panmillenialist?

In our church, we do present an altar call in order to give whosoever will an opportunity to pray for forgiveness, confess and rededicate, or whatever they feel led by the Spirit of God to do. 

I too believe in churches being led by spiritually mature leaders and elders. If we were to leave every decision to congregational vote, things could get out of hand really fast. 

I'm not disagreeing with denominations, I'm disagreeing with preaching for or against denominational doctrine before and above the Gospel of Christ. 

I appreciate your opinion and beliefs.


----------



## Banjo (Aug 17, 2009)

GaBuckSlammer said:


> I respect your position. But in regards to Moses, he lived under the law. We today do not live under the law, but rather we live under grace. Christ came to fulfill what obedience/disobedience to the law could not. I do not mean to say or imply that the law is of no use. But rather I believe that no matter how hard I too try to live by it, and often make mistakes, the grace of Christ covers me.
> 
> We do not preach Tim LaHaye books, we preach the Word of God. Many in our church stand differently in regards to the rapture. But we don't preach the rapture, we preach Christ crucified, and risen from the grave.  I personally believe if we are saved, what do we have to fear about when the rapture is? Does God not promise to never leave nor forsake His children? I believe we should be saved and ready for it anyday. I'm not a pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, nor a premillenialist or post. I believe if we are saved and have a relationship, not a religion or a denomination, with Jesus Christ it will pan out. So does that make me a panmillenialist?
> 
> ...



Thanks, Buckslammer.  I was merely trying to point out that denominations are necessary otherwise we would spend all our time "debating" certain doctrines.    

In a sense, one has to preach for what you call "denominational doctrine."    If all you get is a salvation message every Sunday....your Christian walk will suffer.  Yes, salvation can be presented in a way each week, but that doesn't always make it the focal point.  Worship is for believers....as only they can worship.  It should equip the saints.  Worship is not solely about "evangelizing the lost" althought that should occur.   In my opinion, that is why the modern evangelicals are so weak today.....

For the record....I would love to discuss your understanding of grace and law.  I believe we should adhere to the Law as a means of sanctification.  It is how God shows His children to live.  Grace and Law are not antithetical to one another....they go hand in hand.  Because we are saved....we keep the Law.

Jesus:  "If you love me, keep my commandments."

Matt. 5:18

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Heaven and earth "ain't" passed away yet.....Every jot and tittle of the Law still stands....not for salvific purposes....but for a standard of righteous living.


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## GaBuckSlammer (Aug 17, 2009)

Banjo, I don't disagree in regards to the law. I thought I said that in my earlier post. I don't feel that the new testament contradicts the old at all. I can preach a sermon anywhere out of the old testament and it points to the cross. I merely was trying to say that strict adherence to the law wasn't enough. Romans chapter 6 I believe reiterates this. Paul later confessed that his training, his lineage, his citizenship, and his adherence to the law was pale in comparison to His new relationship with Christ. 


Do I believe in the Ten Commandments? Yes I do. I try to keep them everyday. Do I come up short and fail? Far too often. Does it render me doomed for eternity? Does the Word of God tell us to be perfect or strive to be perfect? Strict adherence to the law promotes regimen and legalism. Each of these the Pharisees and Saduccees exhibited quite well. But did Christ not say the greatest 2 commandments were to love our neighbor as ourselves and to love the Lord our God with all our heart, our mind, and our soul. Yet in the parable of the Good Samaritan, adherence to the law caused the religious leaders to look away from a soul in need. Yet a complete stranger freely helped and provided assistance with no reason or expectance. 

If we are to still keep all of the law, then should we be making yearly sacrificial offerings and attending passover in Jerusalem too?

Was Jesus not the perfect and ultimate sacrifice? I believe so. Was He not sent by God the Father much like God the Father provided the Ram for Abraham on Mt. Moriah? Again, I believe so. 



That's what I call grace - a free gift that we did not earn nor do we deserve. A gift that is offered to those who try and fail, those who trust and obey, a gift to all sinners that would accept and believe in Christ as Lord and repent of their sins. 

Banjo, I feel we honestly agree and believe in much the same, but we word things differently.


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## Tim L (Aug 17, 2009)

Banjo said:


> I will narrow it down to include:
> 
> Conservative Judaism
> Rabbinical Assembly
> ...





I will agree with you on some of the denomenations you have listed here, I won't say more than that; some, such as the Episcopal Church and the United Church of Christ (the United Church of Christ is a very different animal than the Church of Christ) are shells of what they once were all about.  Now, their about social activism; discussions on where will you spend eternity are know longer tolerated.

Now, the UMC does not condone abortion; period.  We do have female clergy, period.  We do not officially condone gay or lesbian ministers, period.  We do not condone homosexuality; but no we would not ask them to leave the church either (he who is without sin cast the first stone).  As far as choir members, pianists, etc., that would probably depend on the individual church and frankly whether it was an urban or country church; urban churches (all denomenations) are generally alot more liberal and more prone to reflect whatever is politically correct in todays society, rather than what is biblically correct...

With all of that said, I would be lying if I didn't say alot of Methodists (myself included) are worried that we are slowly starting to lean in that direction.  More and more Methodist ministers are refusing to discuss hail, will not go there at all; some are proud to say they are not going to scare anyone into heaven...Invitation hymns are now called benidictions hymns and are likely to be totally inappropriate, "peppy" fast songs...No one is saved; your invited to join the church and say yes, yes, I will..I have actually heard discussions in Disciple classes where the clergy will allow discussion on whether or not there is such a place as hail and will not take a strong position one way or the other (I have a bad habit of taking strong positions)......We no longer have revivals..And I'm afraid some of the once great bible following methodist universities such as Emory and SMU are more concerned with the dictates of the Methodist book of Discipline than the bible; our minsters follow the lead of the north Georgia conference rather than the word of God......But all is not lost, there are still christians in the Methodist Church; some are still "salty" and try to follow the word of God rather than the dictates of the NGC.....But you know, not long ago, I "cornered" one of our ministers (not someone just out of seminary either), was asking him why they will not discuss hail, why they will not point out that hail exists and that not everyone is going to make it into heaven...asked him to imagine walking down a road, imagine that hail is at the end of the road and that you have to do something, have to make a decision to fork off that road to get to heaven....he said your right....and I reminded him that so many of our young people never have heard that, asked him what was he going to say on judgement day if he is facing some of these folks that never heard ALL of the gospel; was he just going to say I didn't want to scare you??? Finally, I asked him if he why if he knew all that and knows that Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- is out there; why won't he and some other Methodist Ministers not talk about it???  He looked down and said because it's not the Wesylean way.........................................................................................................................................................................Well it would really PMO if I read where a baptist had just said all that about us; but I'm a Methodist and know that it's true......There's still hope for our church; we haven't gone the way of the episcopalins yet; but I would be lying if I said I was not uneasy..


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## rjcruiser (Aug 17, 2009)

GaBuckSlammer said:


> I can preach a sermon anywhere out of the old testament and it points to the cross.


A good Baptist preacher can preach a sermon out of anywhere and it end with an Altar Call.  I think they teach that as a way to add 5-10 minutes on the end of every sermon.



			
				GaBuckSlammer said:
			
		

> Do I believe in the Ten Commandments? Yes I do. I try to keep them everyday. Do I come up short and fail? Far too often. Does it render me doomed for eternity? Does the Word of God tell us to be perfect or strive to be perfect? Strict adherence to the law promotes regimen and legalism. Each of these the Pharisees and Saduccees exhibited quite well.



Well said.  Well said.  Everyone is quick to point out how certain "liberties" are Stumbling blocks, but never realize that legalism can be a stubmling block as well.


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## earl (Aug 17, 2009)

WOW ! Ya'll are letting a woman call you out ???


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## farmasis (Aug 17, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Thanks, Buckslammer. I was merely trying to point out that denominations are necessary otherwise we would spend all our time "debating" certain doctrines.
> 
> In a sense, one has to preach for what you call "denominational doctrine." If all you get is a salvation message every Sunday....your Christian walk will suffer. Yes, salvation can be presented in a way each week, but that doesn't always make it the focal point. Worship is for believers....as only they can worship. It should equip the saints. Worship is not solely about "evangelizing the lost" althought that should occur. In my opinion, that is why the modern evangelicals are so weak today.....
> 
> ...


 

Well said Banjo.

I believe the law is in as much effect now as it ever was. The only difference is that the penalty of breaking those laws are covered by grace and not the aroma of sacrifice.

I think ever unbeliever will find out the law is in full effect one day.


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## farmasis (Aug 17, 2009)

Banjo said:


> If I come to your church, are they going to allow me to have the minister place the Mark of the Covenant on my children? Now, I believe God has commanded it in the Old Testament and never revoked that command......and I would be sinning not to do so (remember what happened when Moses did not).


 
*<SUP>25</SUP>* For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. (Romans 2)

Interested in what you think of this. What law consititutes keeping the whole law? Because surely you do not keep all the law.. do you?

Maybe I should have clarified my well said comment above to mean the laws given to modern day Christians and not ancient Jews. Methinks there is a huge difference.


----------



## Banjo (Aug 17, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> A good Baptist preacher can preach a sermon out of anywhere and it end with an Altar Call.  I think they teach that as a way to add 5-10 minutes on the end of every sermon.
> 
> 
> 
> Well said.  Well said.  Everyone is quick to point out how certain "liberties" are Stumbling blocks, but never realize that legalism can be a stubmling block as well.



I think we need to define "legalism."  

Legalism is when you hold your own personal standards of right and wrong regardless of what the Bible says on the matter.

It is a sin to dance.  That is legalism.

We should obey the 10 commandments.....That is just Biblical.

Rj....you are just scared I am going to tell you not to hunt on Sunday......which I would.  It is hard to get around that fourth commandment.


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## Banjo (Aug 17, 2009)

> Do I believe in the Ten Commandments? Yes I do. I try to keep them everyday. Do I come up short and fail? Far too often. Does it render me doomed for eternity? Does the Word of God tell us to be perfect or strive to be perfect? Strict adherence to the law promotes regimen and legalism. Each of these the Pharisees and Saduccees exhibited quite well. But did Christ not say the greatest 2 commandments were to love our neighbor as ourselves and to love the Lord our God with all our heart, our mind, and our soul. Yet in the parable of the Good Samaritan, adherence to the law caused the religious leaders to look away from a soul in need. Yet a complete stranger freely helped and provided assistance with no reason or expectance.



I am glad you believe we should strive to keep the Ten Commandments....we agree.  They reflect God's character and are how He expects His children to behave.

Jesus reiterated this when He taught the "summation" of the Ten Commandments in the New Testament.  Those two commandments summed up the Ten....How to worship God....and How to love your neighbor.  

Now....you know....Jesus did tell us to "be perfect as His Father in heaven is perfect."  He knew we could never perfectly keep the Law....and is why He did it for us.  However, that never nullified the fact that we are to strive to keep the moral law.  The ceremonial law has been done away with because Jesus was the final sacrifice.  However, we can still learn from its underlying principles i.e.  we need a sacrifice when we stand before God, it must be perfect and unblemished etc.

The Pharisees and Sadducees were LEGALISTS because they taught as doctrine the commandments of MEN....They added their own vain imaginations and ideas to God's already perfect Word, thus placing the Jews under bondage.  That is legalism....not striving to keep God's Law.


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## Banjo (Aug 17, 2009)

> Maybe I should have clarified my well said comment above to mean the laws given to modern day Christians and not ancient Jews. Methinks there is a huge difference.



Is the moral law for Christians, Jews or all men?  What do you consider to be the laws given to modern Christians?

Again....I don't say we are to keep the Ceremonial Laws....but we should keep the moral laws.  They are still binding.....If they weren't why would John define sin as "Lawlessness?"


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## farmasis (Aug 17, 2009)

Banjo said:


> I think we need to define "legalism."
> 
> Legalism is when you hold your own personal standards of right and wrong regardless of what the Bible says on the matter.
> 
> ...


 
What is the definition of work?

<SUP>8</SUP> â€œ Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. <SUP id=en-NKJV-2061 class=versenum>9</SUP> Six days you shall labor and do all your work, <SUP id=en-NKJV-2062 class=versenum>10</SUP> but the seventh day _is_ the Sabbath of the LORD your God. _In it_ you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who _is_ within your gates.


Here is one interpretation..


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]No work is to be done on the Sabbath. The words used in the Bible which are translated into English as "work" are the Hebrew words _kolâ€“m'law·khaw_ meaning "all and any kind of creative 'generative' endeavor, changes to the environment or any object." [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Lev. 23:3 
There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a Sabbath to _HaShem_.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Exodus 34:21
Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.[/FONT]​[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]5. Preparation and cooking of food prohibited.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]These are prime examples of work which is "generative" - i.e., changing something's character. Boiling includes not only bringing a liquid to a boil with food in it, but changing food by pouring boiling water over it. It is also considered cooking to boil the water itself. Baking means not just warming something to make it better to eat, but includes bringing something to a high temperature - high enough to change it. This includes toasting bread, even in an already heated oven or surface. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ex 16:21-30
Each morning everyone gathered as much [_manna_] as he needed, and when the sun grew hot, it melted away. On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much-- two omers for each person-- and the leaders of the community came and reported this to Moses. He said to them, "This is what _HaShem_ commanded: `Tomorrow is to be a day of rest, a holy Sabbath to _HaShem_. So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.'" So they saved it until morning, as Moses commanded, and it did not stink or get maggots in it. "Eat it today," Moses said, "because today is a Sabbath to _HaShem_. You will not find any of it on the ground today. Six days you are to gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will not be any." Nevertheless, some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather it, but they found none. Then _HaShem_ said to Moshe, "How long will you refuse to keep my commands and my instructions? Bear in mind that _HaShem_ has given you the Sabbath; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Everyone is to stay where he is on the seventh day; no one is to go out." So the people rested on the seventh day.
[/FONT]​[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]6. Carrying anything out of a "domain" is prohibited.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Domain" means your home/property, building/campus, etc. A walled city is considered a single domain. It should be noted that many Jewish communities have established an "eruv," which is a fence which legally establishes the community as a single domain. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jer. 17: 21
This is what _HaShem_ says: Be careful not to carry a load on the Sabbath day or bring it through the gates of Jerusalem. Do not bring a load out of your houses or do any work on the Sabbath, but keep the Sabbath day holy, as I commanded your forefathers.[/FONT]​[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]7. Do Not Make (or allow) Others Work.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Besides your not being allowed to work, you are prohibited from doing anything that will make the following people work. You are not to allow any of these to work[/FONT]:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Your children [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Any employee or person who would serve you (this includes any stranger who would serve you). [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Any animal you own. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Any non-Jewish person in your home. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ex 20:8-10
Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to _HaShem_ your G-d. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Exodus 23:12
Six days do your work, but on the seventh day do not work, so that your ox and your donkey may rest and the slave born in your household, and the alien as well, may be refreshed.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Deut 5:12
Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as _HaShem_ your G-d has commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to _HaShem_ your G-d. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor the alien within your gates, so that your manservant and maidservant may rest, as you do. Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that _HaShem_ your G-d brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore_HaShem_ your G-d has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]8. Lighting a fire on the Sabbath is not permitted.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This is understood to mean doing anything on Sabbath which directly or indirectly lights a fire, such as striking a match, lighting a gas stove, adding wood to a fire, changing a thermostat so as to start a gas or oil furnace, etc. Using (turning on and off) electricity or anything electronic is included in this rule.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Exodus 35:3
Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day.[/FONT]​
http://www.teshuvah.com/articles/shabbat/sabbath1.htm


----------



## Banjo (Aug 17, 2009)

Isaiah 58:13-14

 13 "If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath 
and from doing as you please on my holy day, 
       if you call the Sabbath a delight 
       and the LORD's holy day honorable, 
and if you honor it by not going your own way 
       and not doing as you please or speaking idle words,

 14 then you will find your joy in the LORD, 
       and I will cause you to ride on the heights of the land 
       and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob." 
       The mouth of the LORD has spoken.

It isn't just about "working."  It is about taking one day in seven and dedicating it to the Lord.  Private and public worship.  Praising and singing. Showing hospitality and doing works of mercy.

BTW....good to see you Farmasis.  I hope you and yours have been well.


----------



## farmasis (Aug 17, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Isaiah 58:13-14
> 
> 13 "If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath
> and from doing as you please on my holy day,
> ...


 
I read the Bible and pray more in the deer stand on Saturday (and not for a 8 pointer ) than I do on Sunday.

We are doing great. Thanks for asking.


----------



## dawg2 (Aug 17, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> I went to a Episcopal Church a while back and it was just like the Catholics.



The only thing they don't have is a Pope


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## gordon 2 (Aug 18, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> The only thing they don't have is a Pope



They take RC priests that what to try it out with a girlfriend. And RC take Anglicans with girlfriends. How cool is that! Gives fresh meaning to the whirl of the "tub".


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## rjcruiser (Aug 18, 2009)

Banjo said:


> I think we need to define "legalism."
> 
> Legalism is when you hold your own personal standards of right and wrong regardless of what the Bible says on the matter.
> 
> ...




Yup...kinda like saying it is a sin to send your kids to public skrool

We'll differ on the hunting on Sunday...I'm siding with Farmasis on this.  I feel a sense of closeness with God in the woods enjoying His creation.  Amazing how God can be glorified through pretty much everything we do as long as we're not sinning. 

But again...you have your preferences and I have mine.  Making them Principle's....yup....that is legalism.


----------



## Banjo (Aug 18, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Yup...kinda like saying it is a sin to send your kids to public skrool
> 
> We'll differ on the hunting on Sunday...I'm siding with Farmasis on this.  I feel a sense of closeness with God in the woods enjoying His creation.  Amazing how God can be glorified through pretty much everything we do as long as we're not sinning.
> 
> But again...you have your preferences and I have mine.  Making them Principle's....yup....that is legalism.



Oh no you didn't....just go there:

Public school teaches Humanism and denies the Creator God.....It is even openly hostile towards Christians.  Not to mention the  Socialism it promotes.....(As a side, it looks like that promotion of Socialism worked.)

Be honest....most people send their children to public school BECAUSE IT IS FREE.  I have heard all the evangelizing arguments....but that holds no water.  It attempts to justify a poor decision.....

You could probably equate a prolife, conservative United Methodist minister staying in the UMC.....to Christians sending their children to public schools.....except for the fact that the UMC still is somewhat of a Christian organization and the minister is an adult with somewhat solid convictions.....

Now the public education system on the other hand is openly hostile to Jesus Christ....and it's your Covenant children that YOU are sending into the heart of pagan Babylon.

Talk about being chewed up and spit out....but this time it is your own children and you have subjected them to it for 12+ years. 

You sure God isn't going to hold you accountable for this??

As for the hunting on Sunday.....well....if that is the best use you can make of the Sabbath, you will have to live with it.  What about the time you could have spent with your little ones.....teaching and catechizing them?  Reading to them from the Holy Word?   Making the day sanctified and setting it apart from the other six????


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## WTM45 (Aug 18, 2009)

Good grief.


----------



## earl (Aug 18, 2009)

Where do you come up with public schools are openly hostile...? Because they don't allow you to pollute other peoples children with your beliefs ????  Sounds like a terminal case of chicken little to me. Keep those kids at home in a cult like environment . It will do wonders for them when they attempt to go into the real world. Unless they choose an occupation in religion they will appreciate how well you prepared them. Home schooling,whether for political or religious reasons, does not prepare a child for real life. IMO


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## Banjo (Aug 18, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Good grief.



What?????  I didn't know that you were weighing in any more now that you are a mod.  Is that all you are going to say?  I think that you would be a public school proponent.....all that Humanism and the saving of man through education would be right up your alley.  Now that you are a mod, can we still   this to you every now and then????


----------



## WTM45 (Aug 18, 2009)

Banjo said:


> What?????  I didn't know that you were weighing in any more now that you are a mod.  Is that all you are going to say?  I think that you would be a public school proponent.....all that Humanism and the saving of man through education would be right up your alley.  Now that you are a mod, can we still   this to you every now and then????



Being a Moderator does not take away any personal opinion or stance.  That's totally individual and subjective.
The forum rules are not.  That is where a Moderator attempts to be fair and even.

My response is based on how far off track this thread has gotten from the OP's first post.


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 18, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Oh no you didn't....just go there:



Sorry...just couldn't resist  




			
				Banjo said:
			
		

> Now the public education system on the other hand is openly hostile to Jesus Christ....and it's your Covenant children that YOU are sending into the heart of pagan Babylon.


Well...that would require me to be a Covenant theologist....and that isn't happening any time soon



			
				Banjo said:
			
		

> You sure God isn't going to hold you accountable for this??


God will hold us accountable for everything we do...the good and the bad.



			
				Banjo said:
			
		

> As for the hunting on Sunday.....well....if that is the best use you can make of the Sabbath, you will have to live with it.  What about the time you could have spent with your little ones?



That is why I got a ground blind last weekend at Bass Pro...so that the wife and kids can come along

Funniest thing...I'm not much of a fisherman....but my daugher (4 yrs old) out of the blue asked me the other day......"Daddy, will you take me fishin?"  Hmmm...looks like I'll have to become more of a fishing fanatic.




WTM45 said:


> Good grief.



Oh C'mon WTM...we're just trying to pass some time during the day and enjoy a little friendly banter.


----------



## WTM45 (Aug 18, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Oh C'mon WTM...we're just trying to pass some time during the day and enjoy a little friendly banter.



I have no problem with that.

Sometimes the subjects in here run off on tangents that even the wisest of theologians would do a facepalm.


----------



## Banjo (Aug 18, 2009)

earl said:


> Where do you come up with public schools are openly hostile...? Because they don't allow you to pollute other peoples children with your beliefs ????  Sounds like a terminal case of chicken little to me. Keep those kids at home in a cult like environment . It will do wonders for them when they attempt to go into the real world. Unless they choose an occupation in religion they will appreciate how well you prepared them. Home schooling,whether for political or religious reasons, does not prepare a child for real life. IMO



The public education system has no problem polluting everybody's children with Humanism....which is the religion of man....Evolution is another religion they promote.  BUT YOU BETTER NOT TALK ABOUT OR PRAY TO JESUS.  

I won't make this a spitting contest.  Homeschoolers outperform public schoolers on standardized tests quite regularly.  After all, isn't that what education is about?  

This picture of social retards who shy away from the community that the opponents of homeschoolers try to promote concerning them..... is false and dishonest.  

I even allowed one of my little recluses to be on the six o'clock morning news this morning for all of Middle Georgia to see.  She played her violin and represented her Youth Orchestra.  She still hasn't recovered from her outing, and is upstairs locked in her closet slobbering on herself.....  I am hoping to lure her down with some whole grains and alfalfa sprouts.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 18, 2009)

earl said:


> Home schooling,whether for political or religious reasons, does not prepare a child for real life. IMO



I'd venture to say that our current public school system does little to prepare a child for real life as well.

That preparation has everything to do with the involvement of the Parents.  The public school system is run just about as well as any other govt funded program. Geez...they can't even figure out how to run a $4500 rebate program.


----------



## WTM45 (Aug 18, 2009)

Banjo said:


> This picture of social retards who shy away from the community that the opponents of homeschoolers try to promote concerning them..... is false and dishonest.



And how you broad brush describe public education isn't?


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 18, 2009)

Banjo said:


> I won't make this a spitting contest.  Homeschoolers outperform public schoolers on standardized tests quite regularly.  After all, isn't that what education is about?


Nope...education isn't all about doing well on standardized tests.


----------



## Banjo (Aug 18, 2009)

> Well...that would require me to be a Covenant theologist....and that isn't happening any time soon



You mean you are going to send your little pagans who haven't made a decision for Jesus out into the nasty public school system to evangelize the lost????



I could not resist.....You know this is said in jest.  There is a difference between children of believers and children of unbelievers.....IF I COULD JUST GET YOU TO ADMIT IT, then we may well be on the way to securing your Covenantal Theologian title.


----------



## Banjo (Aug 18, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> And how you broad brush describe public education isn't?



What is the foundation of public education?  Read John Dewey....the father of modern education and signer of the Humanist Manifesto.  

We are to make good little citizens....who don't think too much.  Teach them there is no God by removing any reference to Him and promoting every other philosophy that does not include Him.  Teach them the STATE is their God and will provide for them.


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 18, 2009)

Banjo said:


> You mean you are going to send your little pagans who haven't made a decision for Jesus out into the nasty public school system to evangelize the lost????
> 
> 
> 
> I could not resist.....You know this is said in jest.





I took it as a joke...nothing more.

Nope...if all goes according to plan, my daughter will not grace the halls of the Newton County Public Education system.  



			
				Banjo said:
			
		

> There is a difference between children of believers and children of unbelievers.....IF I COULD JUST GET YOU TO ADMIT IT, then we may well be on the way to securing your Covenantal Theologian title.



Oh...yes...there is a difference.  But until the little one makes Jesus Christ their Lord and Savior, the actions that make that difference visible to the outside world are done out of fear, not love.


----------



## Banjo (Aug 18, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Nope...education isn't all about doing well on standardized tests.



Please elaborate.....


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 18, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Please elaborate.....



You proved my point by noting that your daughter was playing violin representing her orchestra group.


Is that not part of her education?

Does that translate onto a standardized test?

There's much more to a good education than memorizing answers to a test.

One of my favorite quotes of my father...

"Never let school get in the way of your education."


----------



## WTM45 (Aug 18, 2009)

Banjo said:


> What is the foundation of public education?  Read John Dewey....the father of modern education and signer of the Humanist Manifesto.
> 
> We are to make good little citizens....who don't think too much.  Teach them there is no God by removing any reference to Him and promoting every other philosophy that does not include Him.  Teach them the STATE is their God and will provide for them.



Plenty of good people have been very successful after the same basic education system, and can hold their own beliefs and faiths.

I'm not challenging your personal belief or desire to homeschool.  That is your right.  But you are being quite overboard with your characterization of public education as a whole. 

Religion should be the purview of the individual and the family.  There is a lot of knowledge to be sought, and I support those teachers and professors that strive to bring their subject matter expertise to those who desire learning.

There is a time for Bible study.  There is a time for Quran study.  There is a time for the study of the Torah.
But there is also a time for medical studies, engineering fundamentals, chemistry and many other technical subjects.  Students seeking the very best educators for those subjects are quite wise.


----------



## Banjo (Aug 18, 2009)

Put this in your pipe and smoke it, earl:

Father of Education:  John Dewey

"Education is a social process. Education is growth. Education is, not a preparation for life; education is life itself."

"I believe, therefore, that the true center of correlation on the school subjects is not science, nor literature, nor history, nor geography, but the child's own social activities.”

“The mere absorption of facts and truths is so exclusively an individual affair that it tends very naturally to pass into selfishness. There is no obvious social motive for the acquirement of mere learning, there is no clear social gain in success thereat.” 

“You can’t make Socialists out of individualists — children who know how to think for themselves spoil the harmony of the collective society which is coming, where everyone is interdependent.”


----------



## Banjo (Aug 18, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> You proved my point by noting that your daughter was playing violin representing her orchestra group.
> 
> 
> Is that not part of her education?
> ...



There is a reason why our society is more unintelligent than every before.....I say look to the system where most people were educated.  There is also a reason why our country put Obama in office....I say look to the system where most people were educated.

The girls all started on musical instruments no later than five and have regularly listened to Classical music their entire lives  (even at night when they slept).  There is this phenomenon known as the "Mozart Effect."  It can have a direct result on children's cognitive abilities....translating into higher scores on standardized testing.  

Try another one.


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 18, 2009)

Banjo said:


> There is a reason why our society is more unintelligent than every before.....I say look to the system where most people were educated.  There is also a reason why our country put Obama in office....I say look to the system where most people were educated.
> 
> The girls all started on musical instruments no later than five and have regularly listened to Classical music their entire lives  (even at night when they slept).  There is this phenomenon known as the "Mozart Effect."  It can have a direct result on children's cognitive abilities....translating into higher scores on standardized testing.
> 
> Try another one.



So the only reason that you send your kids off to violin lessons is so that they do better on standardized tests?

What about athletics?  Do those not help in rounding out an individual?

To think that education is only about scoring well on a standardized test is crazy.


----------



## Banjo (Aug 18, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> So the only reason that you send your kids off to violin lessons is so that they do better on standardized tests?
> 
> What about athletics?  Do those not help in rounding out an individual?
> 
> To think that education is only about scoring well on a standardized test is crazy.



I am just being ornery....We do participate in all these things and yes.....it is part of their education.

However, the MOST important part of their school education is the basics....reading, writing, arithmetic....or academics.  These are to be done well and do help prepare one for life, despite what earl thinks.  

However, the standardized tests are a good indicator that homeschoolers are outperforming their public school counterparts.....by a huge margin.  I will go look for the article and results.


----------



## WTM45 (Aug 18, 2009)

How do Methodists and Baptists compare in standardized testing?

I wonder............


----------



## Banjo (Aug 18, 2009)

Astonishing Homeschool Academic Achievement Study Results
Parental Rights and Duties in Education	


Each year, the homeschool movement graduates at least 100,000 students. Due to the fact that both the United States government and homeschool advocates agree that homeschooling has been growing at around 7% per annum for the past decade, it is not surprising that homeschooling is gaining increased attention. Consequently, many people have been asking questions about homeschooling, usually with a focus on either the academic or social abilities of homeschool graduates.

As an organization advocating on behalf of homeschoolers, Home School Legal Defense Association (HSLDA) long ago committed itself to demonstrating that homeschooling should be viewed as a mainstream educational alternative.

We strongly believe that homeschooling is a thriving education movement capable of producing millions of academically and socially able students who will have a tremendously positive effect on society.

Despite much resistance from outside the homeschool movement, whether from teachers unions, politicians, school administrators, judges, social service workers, or even family members, over the past few decades homeschoolers have slowly but surely won acceptance as a mainstream education alternative. This has been due in part to the commissioning of research which demonstrates the academic success of the average homeschooler.

The last piece of major research looking at homeschool academic achievement was completed in 1998 by Dr. Lawrence Rudner. Rudner, a professor at the ERIC Clearinghouse, which is part of the University of Maryland, surveyed over 20,000 homeschooled students. His study, titled Home Schooling Works, discovered that homeschoolers (on average) scored about 30 percentile points higher than the national average on standardized achievement tests.

This research and several other studies supporting the claims of homeschoolers have helped the homeschool cause tremendously. Today, you would be hard pressed to find an opponent of homeschooling who says that homeschoolers, on average, are poor academic achievers.

There is one problem, however. Rudner’s research was conducted over a decade ago. Without another look at the level of academic achievement among homeschooled students, critics could begin to say that research on homeschool achievement is outdated and no longer relevant.

Recognizing this problem, HSLDA commissioned Dr. Brian Ray, an internationally recognized scholar and president of the non-profit National Home Education Research Institute (NHERI), to collect data for the 2007–08 academic year for a new study which would build upon 25 years of homeschool academic scholarship conducted by Ray himself, Rudner, and many others.

Drawing from 15 independent testing services, the Progress Report 2009: Homeschool Academic Achievement and Demographics included 11,739 homeschooled students from all 50 states who took three well-known tests—California Achievement Test, Iowa Tests of Basic Skills, and Stanford Achievement Test for the 2007–08 academic year. The Progress Report is the most comprehensive homeschool academic study ever completed.

The Results

Overall the study showed significant advances in homeschool academic achievement as well as revealing that issues such as student gender, parents’ education level, and family income had little bearing on the results of homeschooled students.

National Average Percentile Scores
Subtest	Homeschool	Public School
Reading	 89	50
Language 84	50
Math	84	50
Science	86	50
Social Studies	84	50
Corea	88	50
Compositeb	86	50
a. Core is a combination of Reading, Language, and Math.
b. Composite is a combination of all subtests that the student took on the test.
There was little difference between the results of homeschooled boys and girls on core scores.

Boys—87th percentile
Girls—88th percentile

Household income had little impact on the results of homeschooled students.

$34,999 or less—85th percentile
$35,000–$49,999—86th percentile
$50,000–$69,999—86th percentile
$70,000 or more—89th percentile

The education level of the parents made a noticeable difference, but the homeschooled children of non-college educated parents still scored in the 83rd percentile, which is well above the national average.

Neither parent has a college degree—83rd percentile
One parent has a college degree—86th percentile
Both parents have a college degree—90th percentile

Whether either parent was a certified teacher did not matter.

Certified (i.e., either parent ever certified)—87th percentile
Not certified (i.e., neither parent ever certified)—88th percentile

Parental spending on home education made little difference.

Spent $600 or more on the student—89th percentile
Spent under $600 on the student—86th percentile

The extent of government regulation on homeschoolers did not affect the results.

Low state regulation—87th percentile
Medium state regulation—88th percentile
High state regulation—87th percentile

HSLDA defines the extent of government regulation this way:

States with low regulation: No state requirement for parents to initiate any contact or State requires parental notification only.

States with moderate regulation: State requires parents to send notification, test scores, and/or professional evaluation of student progress.

State with high regulation: State requires parents to send notification or achievement test scores and/or professional evaluation, plus other requirements (e.g. curriculum approval by the state, teacher qualification of parents, or home visits by state officials).

The question HSLDA regularly puts before state legislatures is, “If government regulation does not improve the results of homeschoolers why is it necessary?”

In short, the results found in the new study are consistent with 25 years of research, which show that as a group homeschoolers consistently perform above average academically. The Progress Report also shows that, even as the numbers and diversity of homeschoolers have grown tremendously over the past 10 years, homeschoolers have actually increased the already sizeable gap in academic achievement between themselves and their public school counterparts-moving from about 30 percentile points higher in the Rudner study (1998) to 37 percentile points higher in the Progress Report (2009).

As mentioned earlier, the achievement gaps that are well-documented in public school between boys and girls, parents with lower incomes, and parents with lower levels of education are not found among homeschoolers. While it is not possible to draw a definitive conclusion, it does appear from all the existing research that homeschooling equalizes every student upwards. Homeschoolers are actually achieving every day what the public schools claim are their goals—to narrow achievement gaps and to educate each child to a high level.

Of course, an education movement which consistently shows that children can be educated to a standard significantly above the average public school student at a fraction of the cost—the average spent by participants in the Progress Report was about $500 per child per year as opposed to the public school average of nearly $10,000 per child per year—will inevitably draw attention from the K-12 public education industry.

Answering the Critics

This particular study is the most comprehensive ever undertaken. It attempts to build upon and improve on the previous research. One criticism of the Rudner study was that it only drew students from one large testing service. Although there was no reason to believe that homeschoolers participating with that service were automatically non-representative of the broader homeschool community, HSLDA decided to answer this criticism by using 15 independent testing services for this new study. There can be no doubt that homeschoolers from all walks of life and backgrounds participated in the Progress Report.

While it is true that not every homeschooler in America was part of this study, it is also true that the Progress Report provides clear evidence of the success of homeschool programs.

The reason is that all social science studies are based on samples. The goal is to make the sample as representative as possible because then more confident conclusions can be drawn about the larger population. Those conclusions are then validated when other studies find the same or similar results.

Critics tend to focus on this narrow point and maintain that they will not be satisfied until every homeschooler is submitted to a test. This is not a reasonable request because not all homeschoolers take standardized achievement tests. In fact, while the majority of homeschool parents do indeed test their children simply to track their progress and also to provide them with the experience of test-taking, it is far from a comprehensive and universal practice among homeschoolers.

The best researchers can do is provide a sample of homeschooling families and compare the results of their children to those of public school students, in order to give the most accurate picture of how homeschoolers in general are faring academically.

The concern that the only families who chose to participate are the most successful homeschoolers can be alleviated by the fact that the overwhelming majority of parents did not know their children's test results before agreeing to participate in the study.

HSLDA believes that this study along with the several that have been done in the past are clear evidence that homeschoolers are succeeding academically.

Final Thought

Homeschooling is making great strides and hundreds of thousands of parents across America are showing every day what can be achieved when parents exercise their right to homeschool and make tremendous sacrifices to provide their children with the best education available.

http://aipnews.com/talk/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=6999&posts=5


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## Banjo (Aug 18, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> How do Methodists and Baptists compare in standardized testing?
> 
> I wonder............



FAIR ENOUGH.....We have digressed beyond salvaging....

I am going to fix lunch.....


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## earl (Aug 18, 2009)

That's the good thing about not being fixated on one thing . I can read just about any thing and be able to take what I want from it and leave the rest . And I won't burn in hades for it. Amazing what you can learn when you lose the fear of death.


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 18, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> How do Methodists and Baptists compare in standardized testing?
> 
> I wonder............



hmmm...all the comments I could make on that one....but I'll refrain in order to maintain peace


----------



## WTM45 (Aug 18, 2009)

Banjo said:


> I am going to fix lunch.....



Enjoy!

Cold sandwich and coffee here.


----------



## WTM45 (Aug 18, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> hmmm...all the comments I could make on that one....but I'll refrain in order to maintain peace



Well, SMU has a law program and an engineering program.  Bob Jones has neither.
Is that a start?


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 18, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Well, SMU has a law program and an engineering program.  Bob Jones has neither.
> Is that a start?



Yeah...and BJU can't even get accredited


----------



## starmello (Aug 18, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> How do Methodists and Baptists compare in standardized testing?
> 
> I wonder............



Wwwweeeellllll......Once a Baptists learns something..they always know it................Once a Methodist learns something..they can forget it....

Just joking ..

tony


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Aug 18, 2009)

This topic is paramount to debating which end of the earth floating out in a vast universe is actually the top.


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 18, 2009)

scooter1 said:


> This topic is paramount to debating which end of the earth floating out in a vast universe is actually the top.



The South pole.


----------



## Diogenes (Aug 18, 2009)

Banjo:   “Father of Education: John Dewey”   

John Dewey (October 20, 1859 – June 1, 1952).   So, your contention is that a pragmatist philosopher and reformer ‘fathered’ education in the first half of the 20th Century?  Who knew?

Rousseau, speaking about a hundred years before Dewey was born, contended in a nutshell that education comes from three sources: from nature, from men, and from things.   Pretty pragmatic, as educational philosophies go, so, for now, let’s call Rousseau the ‘father’ of Dewey’s ideas.   But wait – This idea of education is largely pragmatic, in Dewey’s view, so the idea is that X (educator) is fostering desireable or at least unobjectionable attributes in Y (educated) by certain methods, but hey, isn’t this concept of education common to all of the different ideas of ‘education,’ held by everyone from Plato to Kant to the Chinese?  Plato, in fact,  tried to describe the teachability of ‘arete’ (excellence) both in the Protagoras and in Meno, and in Meno he goes on to list four alternatives by which ‘arete’ is acquired – (a) by teaching; (b) by practice; (c) by fortune or divine gift; or (d) that it is possessed by nature.    That looks like a pretty pragmatic view as well, so let us extend the thought, and say that Plato was the ‘father’ of Rousseau’s ideas . . .  But wait . . . (You see where this is going . . . so I’ll knock it off now . . . the point is – be very careful about deciding that anyone at all is the ‘Father’ of anything at all – all of human knowledge is cumulative, and has built steadily on the ideas before them.  A broad and inclusive view is usually going to be more accurate than assuming a singular starting point . . . I mean, heck, if the ancient Arabs hadn’t come up with the idea of the null state (zero) there would be no modern mathematics, and thus no computers for us to share these thoughts . . . So, in truth, the ‘Father of Education’ already had the advantage of all the education that came before him, didn’t he?  )

As for Booptists vs. Moopstists vs. Hooptists vs. Looptists vs. Frisbeetarians . . . It would seem to me, personally, that the fact that this sort of thing still goes on demonstrates handily that education is certainly not the answer.   People only teach their children what they know, and what they have been taught by their own parents, and the sad truth is that they tend for the most part to know nothing at all, repeating the same mistakes in an endless educational Mobius Strip of error  . . .

How about we leave the kids alone where our ‘religious’ doctrines are concerned, quit brain-washing and indoctrinating them, and see if they spontaneously, instinctively, and  naturally come up with all this nonsense on their own?  Smart money says they won’t, which I realize frightens the Cadillacs off of all of the Religious hucksters out there . . . (Follow the money, and you will eventually find the truth . . . )


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## earl (Aug 18, 2009)

The kiddies have to be indoctrinated to perpetuate the species.
Preferably at home to avoid contamination and free thought.


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## Diogenes (Aug 18, 2009)

Earl: “The kiddies have to be indoctrinated to perpetuate the species.”

But wait a minute . . . I thought the doctrine was one of purity of the mind and the flesh . . . to live a life without committing any sins of the flesh can hardly perpetuate the species . . .   

The at home part I can understand, since I've been looking for an explanation for West Virginia anyway . . .


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## The Original Rooster (Aug 18, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> Earl: “The kiddies have to be indoctrinated to perpetuate the species.”
> 
> But wait a minute . . . I thought the doctrine was one of purity of the mind and the flesh . . . to live a life without committing any sins of the flesh can hardly perpetuate the species . . .
> 
> The at home part I can understand, since I've been looking for an explanation for West Virginia anyway . . .



Diogenes, most of us aren't Shakers so perpetuating the species is allowed.


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## earl (Aug 18, 2009)

I don't know but I kind of like that ''multiply and be fruitful ''


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## Banjo (Aug 19, 2009)

> How about we leave the kids alone where our ‘religious’ doctrines are concerned, quit brain-washing and indoctrinating them, and see if they spontaneously, instinctively, and  naturally come up with all this nonsense on their own?



Ahh Diogenes....Perhaps I too am simply a product of my statist education.  As an education major, my professors touted Dewey as the Grand Poobah of modern education.  
Don't believe me....pick up any university text concerning education and see who is lauded....Some of his ideas may have come from others, but he has received the credit.

Here is where you are being intellectually dishonest.  You know as well as I do that education always indoctrinates.  Always!  There is no neutrality in this life.  If one leaves the Creator God out of their education, teaching that man is the determiner and supreme judge, then Humanism is being taught.  If it is taught that we slimed our way out of the ocean and evolved....the religion of Evolution is being taught.  Socialism is even  promoted as the children bring their supplies in....where they are placed in a big "community" tub and doled out according to the teacher.  

No doubt about it.  You guys have the state education system.  Apathetic Christians have allowed the take-over and many still send their children to those schools to be "indoctrinated" religiously.  An hour of Sunday School every week will hardly be enough for most to untangle the lies they have been taught for forty plus hours at the schoolhouse.  

However, there is a movement that has taken hold and is sweeping America....homeschooling.  I am sure it scares the Atheist and the State.  As well it should.  You can keep all the History texts that the Revisionists have written for the State curriculum.  I will opt for original sources.  You can keep your evolutionary science texts.  I will opt for those that provide proof that everything we see did not get here by chance....how design is evident in all things.  You can certainly keep your political science texts.....I will probably opt for the actual Constitution....and texts that promote LIMITED government.  I could continue....but I bet you "get my drift."  

No neutrality is to be found in ANY area of our lives, including our children's education.  We all bring our presuppositions to the table.... including the State, the teachers, the authors of our State texts, the School Board, the NEA, the Principals, even the lunch room lady and the janitor.  They are either for God or against Him.  

I am for Him.....and will continue to promote Him as the basis and foundation for all of my children's education!


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## Miguel Cervantes (Aug 19, 2009)

Banjo said:


> I am for Him.....and will continue to promote Him as the basis and foundation for all of my children's education!


 

Amen


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## Big7 (Sep 10, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> I went to a Episcopal Church a while back and it was just like the Catholics.



No... Only Catholics are Catholics.

The Episcopal church is both catholic and reformed at the same time, holding onto catholicity of the early church all the while seeing this through the enlightenment of the Reformation. 
Some of the primary differences of the Episcopal church are rejection of the idea that the Bishop of Rome (Pope) has primary authority over the Church Universal, clergy can marry, transsubtantiation of Eucharist is not mandatory doctrine, females can be ordained as priests in most dioceses and provinces, much less centralized control by church hierarchy, lay persons have far greater involvement in church administration and leadership, bishops are generally elected (as opposed to being appointed by a central authority), and there's a system of governance that is similar to our federal structure with bicameral houses and a presiding bishop.


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## dawg2 (Sep 10, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> Earl: “The kiddies have to be indoctrinated to perpetuate the species.”
> 
> But wait a minute . . . I thought the doctrine was one of purity of the mind and the flesh . . . to live a life without committing any sins of the flesh can hardly perpetuate the species . . .
> The at home part I can understand, since I've been looking for an explanation for West Virginia anyway . . .



Is there something in the Bible that says married people can't have OR that it is a sin to have sex???


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