# T/C Seneca Hawken



## Bitteroot (Oct 8, 2008)

Ok guys, I can't stand it no more. I have a Seneca 45 cal that has barrel issues. It shoots pretty well, but not good enough, and when I go to clean it, the patch hangs in the bottom and is very dificult to pull out. I am pretty sure that there is some cavitaion in or near the breech plug that is causing most of the problem. Quesion is this! I am either going to sell it, or replace the barrel/breech or combo. I have looked at the web sites on barrel sales, and I like the Green Mountian barrels and purchased a Patch an ball barrel for my T/C 50 Cal and love it. BUT, there are no DROP IN replacements for the Seneca that I have found. So I have to choose. For you expert BP guys, do I need a swamped, tapered, breech plug..............? Somebody give a good combo so I can price this thing and get back to shooting it when I want without the cleaning headaches that I have. I want a smooth patch pull and accuracy that my other Custom GM barrel gives but don't know where to start. ANY ADVISE WILL BE LISTENED TOO. Arguments pro and con as well!


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## godogs57 (Oct 8, 2008)

I have a Seneca and had some accuracy problems but solved them. As you have found out, there are NO replacements on the market, but you can buy a barrel off ebay if you want. $$$. If you decide to sell it, give me a buzz, I would be interested. My Seneca likes 80-90 grains of Pyrodex Select behind a Hornady Great Plains bullet. The Thompson Center maxiballs, etc are crap...they wont shoot accurately. Also try "No Excuses" bullets from Roy, Utah...they are fantastic as well. They are shaped like the great plains bullet, but are a little longer and therefore heavier. 80 grains of Pyrodex will do ya there. 

As for the breech problem, get a T/C breech plug removal tool (ebay) and get that plug off and clean all that crap out, or use JB's or Clover compound to work on that area, but be careful, as it is abraisive! Take it slooow. 

Again, get with me if you want to sell...might be interested. Senecas are the "4 weight fly rod" of the muzzleloader world, when everyone else is using worm rods! Great guns and its a shame they still don't make 'em.


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## Flintrock (Oct 8, 2008)

I have not owed a TC seneca but may be able to help you out.
I am assuming that it is a removeable drum and not a welded one piece
.
When the patch hangs up in the bottom it is more than likely the drum and not the breech plug. The drum either has a burr on the end of the threads as it nears the breech or the drum may have been screwed in too far..If you are able. remove the drum and file off a little on the end.
.
I look up a TC seneca replacement barrel. located one at track of the wolf.
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(ep...styleId=503&partNum=TC-SENECA-BARREL-ASSEMBLY
.
With a little work you can always buy a barrel of your choice and make it fit. You just need to make sure the width of the barrel is the same .


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## fflintlock (Oct 8, 2008)

Have you removed the breech plug from the barrel and tried cleanning everything. I do that every so often with my longrifles and it really helps out. If you have a small amount of pitting and or rust in the breech end, you can take some 4 0000 steel wool, wrap it around a dowel or your rod and try working it back and forth from the breech, it  should take care of it, if it's a small amount. Or, you could take it to a gunsmith and have the bore lapped.
 I use the steel wool and run it through my bores from time to time to help keep it clean and smooth inside. Rust and black powder go hand in hand if not kept in check from time to time.


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## Bitteroot (Oct 8, 2008)

fflintlock said:


> Have you removed the breech plug from the barrel and tried cleanning everything. I do that every so often with my longrifles and it really helps out. If you have a small amount of pitting and or rust in the breech end, you can take some 4 0000 steel wool, wrap it around a dowel or your rod and try working it back and forth from the breech, it  should take care of it, if it's a small amount. Or, you could take it to a gunsmith and have the bore lapped.
> I use the steel wool and run it through my bores from time to time to help keep it clean and smooth inside. Rust and black powder go hand in hand if not kept in check from time to time.



Have not removed the breech plug. I do believe it is more serious than being dirty. I've tried valve lap compound and jewelers rouge, but to no avail. I think a new barrel or at the very least a new plug is in order. It feels as if there is a ridge at the last inch or so in the barrel and when the patch goes in, it expands at that point making removal almost impossible. I worked the barrel for a while to try and polish it away, but no luck. How difficult is it to remove the breech plug, and is it standard thread rotation or counter clockwise? I am not afraid to try it, but have never attempted it because of not knowing the direction. I don't want to spend my time forcing it, the wrong way!  Is a tool necessary, or can I use make shift tools from my shop? I have several vices and other items at my disposal.


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## fflintlock (Oct 8, 2008)

Oh yea, you can do it. 
I have a peice of 1/4 thick rubber I put in my steel vice to hold the barrel in, you can also use a wood workers vise (wood jaws), the main thing is to protect the barrel from getting marred up. Clamp it in tight. I use a 12" adjustable wrench to remove the breech plug, they are standard american threads, so righty tighty, lefty lucy 
I would but some pennatrating oil, or WD40 in the breech, to help loosen threads. Make real sure the wrench fits the plug perfect, I always put the barrel in the vise upside down, that way if you do get a little slip of the wrench, you can't see it when you have the gun back together. Slow and easy here. Once you get it off, you'll be able to see exactly what the problem is. The breech plug should be removed to lap the barrel any way. 
When I built my first gun, I did'nt take enough off of the bore, (at the threads) for my breech plug to fully seat up against the shoulder of the breech, I had a little valley around the breech at that spot, but no where's near an inch.
Now just for the heck of it, take a cold chisel and make a slight mark on both barrel and plug at the same point, underneath the barrel, before removing the breech plug. It will give you a reference to aligin both barrel and plug when you put it back together.
Pull the plug and see what ya got.


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## Bitteroot (Oct 8, 2008)

fflintlock said:


> Oh yea, you can do it.
> I have a peice of 1/4 thick rubber I put in my steel vice to hold the barrel in, you can also use a wood workers vise (wood jaws), the main thing is to protect the barrel from getting marred up. Clamp it in tight. I use a 12" adjustable wrench to remove the breech plug, they are standard american threads, so righty tighty, lefty lucy
> I would but some pennatrating oil, or WD40 in the breech, to help loosen threads. Make real sure the wrench fits the plug perfect, I always put the barrel in the vise upside down, that way if you do get a little slip of the wrench, you can't see it when you have the gun back together. Slow and easy here. Once you get it off, you'll be able to see exactly what the problem is. The breech plug should be removed to lap the barrel any way.
> When I built my first gun, I did'nt take enough off of the bore, (at the threads) for my breech plug to fully seat up against the shoulder of the breech, I had a little valley around the breech at that spot, but no where's near an inch.
> ...



I'm all over it tonight! You are the man, and thanks for the help!


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## Bitteroot (Oct 8, 2008)

Ok, so this is what happened. I pulled the breech plug cleaned and removed debris (minor) and lapped barrel with JB compound. The flash hole plug was a little too far in and seemed to be obstructing a bit. It wouldn't come out and stripped. I cut it down flush from the inside and cleaned and replaced the plug. Shot two shots at 20 yds, and cut the same hole. Next shot was off the paper. Even I don't shoot that bad! Cleaned and fired 2 more at 50 yds. First low right about three inches, next one almost off the paper extreme left high. Paper is a 20 X 20. I've had it. I am ordering a new barrel, breech plug and see if they will set up my sights (buckhorn and fine bead) on the new barrel. Unless somebody here wants to make an offer I can't refuse. But guys, thanks for the input, but this one is toast!


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## fflintlock (Oct 8, 2008)

I just can not beleive a barrel that use to be great, is now just junk, barrels don't do that. Unless, they have minimal rifling, a lot of rust and pitting or have just been abused.  It may have the "button" rifling and be slap wore out ? 
Hate to hear you will spend as much as a new gun, just for the barrel and breech plug.
What did the breech end of the barrel look like ?
 I'm swamped trying to figure out why 2 shots would be the same and the rest would be way off


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## Bitteroot (Oct 8, 2008)

I agree, but it has always been that way. My other Hawken, will shoot a 3 shot 1+ inch group at 100 yds. The inside was really pitted pretty bad. I forgot to say that in my previous post. I bought this gun second hand many years ago. Back then, if you had a T/C that wouldn't group, they would send you a new barrel. My luck ran out, when I spoke with them, they said they had no more available barrels unless I wanted to send it to the custom shop. Can't afford that. But you said " barrel that used to be great". It never shot well since I had it. It has been setting idle in the safe until now. Just got a hankerin to try and get it back right. I think that will take a new barrel to do so. I think your right, abused is the word. But not by me. I take care of my stuff, and don't like having a gun that won't perform. Unless you got any ideas, its outta here!


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## godogs57 (Oct 8, 2008)

What bullets are you using???? The Seneca is notorious for being "picky". Like I said earlier, if you are using T/C bullets, sell 'em for scrap lead...get you some bullets that will shoot. Great Plains or No Excuse bullets. The No Excuse brand is far and away the best I have ever shot. Website is below.... 

http://members.aol.com/noexcusesb/index.html


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## Bitteroot (Oct 8, 2008)

I shoot patch and round ball w/ 70 grs fffg.


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## godogs57 (Oct 8, 2008)

Wrong twist for patch and round ball........go with the conical.


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## Bitteroot (Oct 8, 2008)

I'll try it.


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## Ga Values (Oct 9, 2008)

If you return the rifle to T/C they will replace the barrel assembly  for free.


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## godogs57 (Oct 9, 2008)

GA Values, the part of the factory that manufactured Senecas (and other items) burned down many years ago. T/C made a decision to discontinue production of those items at that time, as it would be too expensive to re-tool. They only have a few parts here and there, and what they could scarf up from "parts guns", according to the guys that are in charge of warranty service, etc...

That only applied to Seneca, Patriots, etc and does not apply to Hawkens, as they are still in production. I had a part I needed for my Seneca...a front sight, and a screw in the trigger mechanisim, and called them. Fortunately they did have those items on hand, but that was about it...the guy I talked to at T/C recommended ebay as the best source for replacement parts. Sad, as these are some nice guns!


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