# Gone! Gone! Gone! All Our Sins Are Gone!



## tell sackett (Oct 20, 2009)

As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us-Ps.103:12

Not some of them; He takes them _all_ away.

You may pile up your sins till they rise like a dark mountain, then multiply them by ten thousand for those you cannot think of; and after you have tried to enumerate all the sins you have ever committed, just let me bring one verse in, and the mountain will melt away: "The blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleaneth us from all sin."

-D.L.Moody


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## CRT (Oct 20, 2009)

Amen Sackett,

That is beautiful music to this wretch's ears.


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## earl (Oct 20, 2009)

If this is true ,what of the last sin you commited,or the one you will commit tomorrow,or the next day ?


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## CRT (Oct 20, 2009)

earl said:


> If this is true ,what of the last sin you commited,or the one you will commit tomorrow,or the next day ?




They are gone as well. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Our fine has been paid, the law has been satisfied and God is no longer our Judge, but our Father.


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## Ronnie T (Oct 20, 2009)

tell sackett said:


> As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us-Ps.103:12
> 
> Not some of them; He takes them _all_ away.
> 
> ...




I cannot say that I totally agree with the spirit in which the above words were written and intended to be used.


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## Lowjack (Oct 20, 2009)

tell sackett said:


> As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us-Ps.103:12
> 
> Not some of them; He takes them _all_ away.
> 
> ...


Amen ! If all your sins are paid, how many sins do you have to pay for ?


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## Ronnie T (Oct 20, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Amen ! If all your sins are paid, how many sins do you have to pay for ?



"What can wash away my sins?????????"


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## CRT (Oct 21, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I cannot say that I totally agree with the spirit in which the above words were written and intended to be used.




Could you expound? I cannot see what there is to disagree with, but I could be missing something.

Thank you.


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## pnome (Oct 21, 2009)

Really?

Tell me is He going to take away this guys sins?

**WARNING NOT PRETTY**
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Blahyi

He has repented them and found God.


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## CRT (Oct 21, 2009)

pnome said:


> Really?
> 
> Tell me is He going to take away this guys sins?
> 
> ...



It is not that we need to find God, but to be found by Him. IF God has saved him, his sins are gone. Can God save a person who has done these heinous crimes: yes. Was the death of Christ on the cross sufficient to cleanse this man's sins: yes. Has God saved this man: I don't know.


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## pnome (Oct 21, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> It is not that we need to find God, but to be found by Him. IF God has saved him, his sins are gone. Can God save a person who has done these heinous crimes: yes. Was the death of Christ on the cross sufficient to cleanse this man's sins: yes. Has God saved this man: I don't know.




I just can't imagine worshiping a God who would forgive this man, yet condemn someone like myself.  

There are few people, that I know of, in this world who would deserve eternal punishment, Joshua Blahyi is one of them.


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## CRT (Oct 21, 2009)

pnome said:


> I just can't imagine worshiping a God who would forgive this man, yet condemn someone like myself.
> 
> There are few people, that I know of, in this world who would deserve eternal punishment, Joshua Blahyi is one of them.



That's reasonable thinking. It is hard for one to understand how serious and vile sin is to God, unless it is someone else's sin. The truth is, apart from Christ, every human being is under just condemnation for having sinned against our Creator, yet because of Calvary, God can not only justify wicked sinners, but cause them to walk in holiness. He can forgive you too, pnome.


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## pnome (Oct 21, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> The truth is, apart from Christ, every human being is under just condemnation for having sinned against our Creator, yet because of Calvary, God can not only justify wicked sinners, but cause them to walk in holiness. He can forgive you too, pnome.



Just condemnation?  For what?  Adam and Eve?

You're telling me that it is "just" that I be condemned for the sins of people who, as dubious as the story is, ate the wrong fruit from a tree some 6000 years ago?

That's not just in any way. 

Of course, the concept of "original sin" is a great tactic for propagating your religion. It is the wound, that one was previously unawares of, for which the snake oil salesman has just the right cure.


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## tell sackett (Oct 21, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I cannot say that I totally agree with the spirit in which the above words were written and intended to be used.


Ronnie T
I think I know what you're saying here, but like 5ptCal, I'd like to hear more. Are you thinking about Rom.6:1?


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## CRT (Oct 21, 2009)

pnome said:


> Just condemnation?  For what?  Adam and Eve?
> 
> You're telling me that it is "just" that I be condemned for the sins of people who, as dubious as the story is, ate the wrong fruit from a tree some 6000 years ago?
> 
> ...



Original sin is not that we are held responsible for Adam and Eve's sin. You and I are condemned for our own sins. You deny the very Creator who gave you life and continues to let you live. You take credit for all the blessings in this life that he has given you yet you cannot even cause your own heart to beat. Therefore, your condemnation is just. And I and every other human that has ever existed have done the same at one point in life. That is why God is just in condemning all of humanity and why it is amazing that He would show mercy on anyone!!! Because He cannot simply forgive wicked men by overlooking their sin against Him, He slaughtered His Son, who knew no sin, to satisfy His justice and therefore be just and the justifier of those who call upon Him.

Though I desperately wish you could see this clearly, I know that apart from God softening your hard heart, you can't. I pray that He will do that. Thank you for bringing honest questions and not just insulting me. I really do appreciate that.


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## pnome (Oct 21, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> Original sin is not that we are held responsible for Adam and Eve's sin. You and I are condemned for our own sins.



I'm not saying I'm without sin.  Even by my own estimations I have sinned.  However, none of those sins are deserving of an eternal punishment.  



> You deny the very Creator who gave you life and continues to let you live.



This would be a sin if God were to unambiguously show himself and I were to still deny him.  That is not the case.  It seems to me, that if God does exist, it is his _clear intent_ to remain hidden.  How can I be blamed for not seeing a omnipotent God who wishes to remain invisible?  I have little choice in the matter.  God gave me a head to reason with.  And when I use these tools he gave me, they tell me he does not exist.  



> You take credit for all the blessings in this life that he has given you yet you cannot even cause your own heart to beat.



I don't take all the credit, I have to give a lot to my mother and father.  It is they who caused my heart to beat.


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## CRT (Oct 21, 2009)

pnome said:


> I'm not saying I'm without sin.  Even by my own estimations I have sinned.  However, none of those sins are deserving of an eternal punishment.



I understand what you are saying. But you say that because you don't believe in God, therefore you don't understand His holiness, His righteousness, His justice and His wrath. To you, none of those sins are deservering of eternal punishment, but you haven't sinned against another man. You and I have sinned against the very Lord of glory.




> This would be a sin if God were to unambiguously show himself and I were to still deny him.



He has clearly revealed himself through creation, but you choose to deny Him anyway.




> It seems to me, that if God does exist, it is his _clear intent_ to remain hidden.  How can I be blamed for not seeing a omnipotent God who wishes to remain invisible?  I have little choice in the matter.  God gave me a head to reason with.  And when I use these tools he gave me, they tell me he does not exist.



There is some truth in what you say. There is a sense in which God is hidden from you, but He has revealed enough for us all to know He does exist. And though He did give you a mind to reason with, our ability to reason is also influenced by sin and our love for it.




> I don't take all the credit, I have to give a lot to my mother and father.  It is they who caused my heart to beat.



Actually, they don't have that ability either. If we did, the one of mine who is no longer with me would still be here. I didn't have the ability to keep my little one's heart beating. And at this moment your heart is beating while both you and your parents are doing nothing to cause it to do so. One day it will cease beating and you nor your parents or any doctor will be able to do anything to make it begin again.


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## Ronnie T (Oct 21, 2009)

tell sackett said:


> Ronnie T
> I think I know what you're saying here, but like 5ptCal, I'd like to hear more. Are you thinking about Rom.6:1?



Yes.  Exactly.  Roman 6:1 and all that it implies.

I certainly agree with the quoted statement


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## CRT (Oct 21, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Yes.  Exactly.  Roman 6:1 and all that it implies.
> 
> I certainly agree with the quoted statement




10-4. I'm with ya.


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## ddd-shooter (Oct 21, 2009)

pnome said:


> I'm not saying I'm without sin.  Even by my own estimations I have sinned.  However, none of those sins are deserving of an eternal punishment.




What qualifications do you have to make your assertion here?



pnome said:


> This would be a sin if God were to unambiguously show himself and I were to still deny him.  That is not the case.  It seems to me, that if God does exist, it is his _clear intent_ to remain hidden.  How can I be blamed for not seeing a omnipotent God who wishes to remain invisible?  I have little choice in the matter.  God gave me a head to reason with.  And when I use these tools he gave me, they tell me he does not exist.



Have you ever visited church services and truly,honestly asked God to reveal himself?


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## pnome (Oct 21, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> What qualifications do you have to make your assertion here?



I know my sins.  Trust me, I've done nothing that would warrant eternal suffering.  Maybe a lash or two from Satan's whip but not eternal ****ation.



> Have you ever visited church services and truly,honestly asked God to reveal himself?



Does it have to be in a church?  I have honestly asked.

Like I said, if God exists, it must be his intent that I not believe in him.   

And so, I believe in a god that doesn't mind that I don't believe in him.   I realize that isn't your god.


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## ddd-shooter (Oct 21, 2009)

It certainly does not have to be a church, although "Where two or more are gathered in my name..." certainly applies. There is a different atmosphere where believers are gathered in the right spirit.


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## farmasis (Oct 21, 2009)

Folks, can I remind you that you are arguing the finer point of propitiation with an unbeliever?

No offense Pnome, but if you got it, you would fall on your face and beg for forgiveness.


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## jmharris23 (Oct 21, 2009)

pnome said:


> I know my sins.  Trust me, I've done nothing that would warrant eternal suffering.  Maybe a lash or two from Satan's whip but not eternal ****ation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



To answer your question " Does it have to be in a church?" 

Absolutely NO. 

As far as your "grading" of sin: We are all in need of God. Those of us who commit "little" sins as well as those who commit the "big" ones. 

To comment on your last statement: He minds, but He will not force you to believe. That's why it's called faith. 

But you knew all this already. It just made me feel better to say it. So thanks!


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## CRT (Oct 22, 2009)

pnome said:


> I know my sins.  Trust me, I've done nothing that would warrant eternal suffering.  Maybe a lash or two from Satan's whip but not eternal ****ation.



Friend, this statement leads me to believe that you misunderstand what we believe. The Bible never teaches that Satan is a red, horned guy with a pointed tail who is going to torture unbelievers in Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- forever. Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- was created by God as a place of eternal punishment for Satan and those angels who chose to follow him. He will be suffering in Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- for all eternity, not ruling there. 





> Does it have to be in a church?



NO



> I have honestly asked.
> 
> Like I said, if God exists, it must be his intent that I not believe in him.
> 
> And so, I believe in a god that doesn't mind that I don't believe in him.   I realize that isn't your god.



So I guess my question is this, is your mind 100% completely made up or is that, if there is a God, you would like to know Him, but He hasn't revealed Himself to you?


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## wholenotem (Oct 22, 2009)

pnome said:


> I just can't imagine worshiping a God who would forgive this man, yet condemn someone like myself.  There are few people, that I know of, in this world who would deserve eternal punishment, Joshua Blahyi is one of them.



One of the greatest insights we can gain, is that it is not the things we do that makes us a sinner, it's that fact that we were born that way, do to circumstances beyond our control.


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## pnome (Oct 22, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> So I guess my question is this, is your mind 100% completely made up or is that, if there is a God, you would like to know Him, but He hasn't revealed Himself to you?



It would be a great comfort to know God.  That said, I wouldn't want that God to be the one you worship.  

If I were to worship a God it would have to be a God who doled out salvation based on works, not faith.  That is the only God that I could, in good conscience, serve.


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## pnome (Oct 22, 2009)

wholenotem said:


> One of the greatest insights we can gain, is that it is not the things we do that makes us a sinner, it's that fact that we were born that way, do to circumstances beyond our control.




I'm sorry, but a just God would not hold me accountable for things beyond my control.


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## CRT (Oct 22, 2009)

pnome said:


> It would be a great comfort to know God.  That said, I wouldn't want that God to be the one you worship.
> 
> If I were to worship a God it would have to be a God who doled out salvation based on works, not faith.  That is the only God that I could, in good conscience, serve.



Fair enough. It is our nature to seek to make a god in our own image, one that we are comfortable with, and who will not hold us accountable so that we can do what we want. That is the very heart of idolatry. But as I prayed for you, earl, dio, and even $6 ham last night, I will continue praying that my God will open your heart and reveal Himself to you. I hope you have a great day!


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## farmasis (Oct 22, 2009)

pnome said:


> I'm sorry, but a just God would not hold me accountable for things beyond my control.


 
.....not to side track and get into a Calvinism fight, but that is one of my major problems with that belief system. If you do hold to those pillars, then God did pick and choose, he did die for a select few, and you have no choice to accept or reject Him.


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## pnome (Oct 22, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> Fair enough. It is our nature to seek to make a god in our own image, one that we are comfortable with, and who will not hold us accountable so that we can do what we want.



I would put it that any God I would worship would have to share my morals.



> That is the very heart of idolatry.



I agree.  Which is why I don't worship any god at all.


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## CRT (Oct 22, 2009)

farmasis said:


> .....not to side track and get into a Calvinism fight, but that is one of my major problems with that belief system. If you do hold to those pillars, then God did pick and choose, he did die for a select few, and you have no choice to accept or reject Him.



That is a tough one, but that is what scripture tells us (though not in those exact words). So we have to say, "Okay, you are God and I am not."

If we're not careful, Christians will even make a god in our own image, one that we are comfortable with (just like Aaron and the golden calf). We have to make sure that we are worshipping the God of scripture and not one of our own making. I've wrestled many hours with those same questions, farmasis.

If you would like to discuss them, PM me. If not, that's fine too. God bless.


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## pnome (Oct 22, 2009)

farmasis said:


> .....not to side track and get into a Calvinism fight, but that is one of my major problems with that belief system. If you do hold to those pillars, then God did pick and choose, he did die for a select few, and you have no choice to accept or reject Him.



Do you believe in "Original Sin"?  If so, what is the difference?  Your God is still holding you accountable for sins that are not your own.


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## CRT (Oct 22, 2009)

pnome said:


> Do you believe in "Original Sin"?  If so, what is the difference?  Your God is still holding you accountable for sins that are not your own.




That is not what the doctrine of "Original Sin" teaches. Every human is held accountable for his/her own sins against God. Ezekiel 18 is a good read on this.

"... the soul who sins shall die." Eze 18:4


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## farmasis (Oct 22, 2009)

pnome said:


> Do you believe in "Original Sin"? If so, what is the difference? Your God is still holding you accountable for sins that are not your own.


 
Yes, I am being held accountable, but believe that I can (with the Holy Spirit's help and not totally on my own) choose God and recieve forgiveness.


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## farmasis (Oct 22, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> That is a tough one, but that is what scripture tells us (though not in those exact words). So we have to say, "Okay, you are God and I am not."
> 
> If we're not careful, Christians will even make a god in our own image, one that we are comfortable with (just like Aaron and the golden calf). We have to make sure that we are worshipping the God of scripture and not one of our own making. I've wrestled many hours with those same questions, farmasis.


 
Of course, I believe that Calvin made a God, or at least gave him characteristics that he does not possess and the one I worship is clearly found in scripture....and I am sure you believe the opposite.



> If you would like to discuss them, PM me. If not, that's fine too. God bless.


 
I have made my thoughts very abundant here.


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## CRT (Oct 22, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Of course, I believe that Calvin made a God, or at least gave him characteristics that he does not possess and the one I worship is clearly found in scripture....and I am sure you believe the opposite.
> 
> 
> 
> I have made my thoughts very abundant here.




PM sent.


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## earl (Oct 22, 2009)

You gotta love when an unbeliever asks a serious question and two christians have a theological debate.


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## CRT (Oct 22, 2009)

earl said:


> You gotta love when an unbeliever asks a serious question and two christians have a theological debate.



Oh, my bad. I forgot this isn't the Spiritual Discussions, _Debate_, and Study forum... oh, wait, yea it is. 

And you gotta love when a well intentioned unbeliever


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## earl (Oct 22, 2009)

I was just thinking a missed opportunity is forever lost.


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## Ronnie T (Oct 22, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> That is a tough one, but that is what scripture tells us (though not in those exact words). So we have to say, "Okay, you are God and I am not."
> 
> If we're not careful, Christians will even make a god in our own image, one that we are comfortable with (just like Aaron and the golden calf). We have to make sure that we are worshipping the God of scripture and not one of our own making. I've wrestled many hours with those same questions, farmasis.
> 
> If you would like to discuss them, PM me. If not, that's fine too. God bless.




After 45 years of studying God's word, I totally and completely disagree with you on this issue.
If you will put aside everything other people have told you about that particular belief, then go study the Gospel of Christ, you'll see it also.

You have just open a window of confusion for a non-believer.  Not a good thing to do.


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## CRT (Oct 23, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> After 45 years of studying God's word, I totally and completely disagree with you on this issue.



You can't be right about EVERYTHING!!   (I'm just joking)



> If you will put aside everything other people have told you about that particular belief, then go study the Gospel of Christ, you'll see it also.



That's how I came to believe it. I quit listening to well-meaning preachers and read the Bible.



> You have just open a window of confusion for a non-believer.  Not a good thing to do.



God is able to clear up any confusion he may have.


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## wholenotem (Oct 24, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> That is not what the doctrine of "Original Sin" teaches. Every human is held accountable for his/her own sins against God. Ezekiel 18 is a good read on this.
> 
> "... the soul who sins shall die." Eze 18:4


If we reject Jesus Christ, sure enough we'll be judged for our sins, but the bible clearly teaches that we're condemned by our blood line. You can be the most moral person  on planet earth, but your kinship to Adam will still betray you. ( look @ verse 12)

Ro 5:1 ¶ Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
 3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
 4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
 5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
 6 ¶ For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
 11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


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## BeenHuntn (Oct 24, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> They are gone as well. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Our fine has been paid, the law has been satisfied and God is no longer our Judge, but our Father.



i agree with what you said, 5pt, but is there Scripture to show that all of our future sins are paid for as well? when i read the Bible it looks to be that our sins are forgiven but we are to sin no more after that and if we do, we have to repent. 


Romans 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God


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## CRT (Oct 26, 2009)

BeenHuntn said:


> i agree with what you said, 5pt, but is there Scripture to show that all of our future sins are paid for as well? when i read the Bible it looks to be that our sins are forgiven but we are to sin no more after that and if we do, we have to repent.
> 
> 
> Romans 3:25
> Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God



That is my understanding as well, BH. Salvation isn't a one time event, like a flu shot. It's not repent and believe one day and your good forever, it's spend the rest of your life repenting of your sins and believing the Gospel. Like where Jesus said, "...take up [your] cross _daily_ and follow Me"

As far as the Scripture dealing with future sins, "It is finished."


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## farmasis (Oct 26, 2009)

I think Paul put it beautifully when he said:

 <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28114>*1*</SUP> T_here_ _is_ therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,<SUP> </SUP>who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28115>*2*</SUP> For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. *<SUP>3</SUP>* For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God _did_ by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28117>*4*</SUP> that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit....
*<SUP>16</SUP>* The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28130>*17*</SUP> and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with _Him,_ that we may also be glorified together....
*<SUP>33</SUP>* Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? _It is_ God who justifies. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28147>*34*</SUP> Who _is_ he who condemns? _It is_ Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28148>*35*</SUP> Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? _Shall_ tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?  (Romans 8)

Halleluiah! Halleluiah! Amen and Amen!


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## CRT (Oct 26, 2009)

farmasis said:


> I think Paul put it beautifully when he said:
> 
> <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28114>*1*</SUP> T_here_ _is_ therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,<SUP> </SUP>who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28115>*2*</SUP> For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. *<SUP>3</SUP>* For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God _did_ by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28117>*4*</SUP> that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit....
> *<SUP>16</SUP>* The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28130>*17*</SUP> and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with _Him,_ that we may also be glorified together....
> ...



Right on!!!


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## Ronnie T (Oct 26, 2009)

farmasis said:


> I think Paul put it beautifully when he said:
> 
> <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28114>*1*</SUP> T_here_ _is_ therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,<SUP> </SUP>who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28115>*2*</SUP> For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. *<SUP>3</SUP>* For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God _did_ by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28117>*4*</SUP> that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit....
> *<SUP>16</SUP>* The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28130>*17*</SUP> and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with _Him,_ that we may also be glorified together....
> ...




Right on again.


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## BeenHuntn (Oct 26, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> That is my understanding as well, BH. Salvation isn't a one time event, like a flu shot. It's not repent and believe one day and your good forever, it's spend the rest of your life repenting of your sins and believing the Gospel. Like where Jesus said, "...take up [your] cross _daily_ and follow Me"
> 
> As far as the Scripture dealing with future sins, "It is finished."



"it is finished..."... i believe that is Jesus saying that His work is done as far as saving a lost world.  i dont see where that has anything to do with "future sins"...

please use Scripture to prove me wrong... because the second half of my life would be far easier if i knew that all of my "future" sins were forgiven and i didnt have to worry about forgiveness of those sins...

there sure is a lot of Scripture saying that we better stop sinning...  or else...  

in Rev, Jesus was talking to His churches and He kept telling them to repent...  if they were already saved and did not have to worry about future sins... why did He keep telling them to repent???

seems to me that folks tend to take one or two verses and make a stand for "once saved" or "the elect" and do not look at the Bible as a whole... Scripture interprets Scripture...  i think...


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## Ronnie T (Oct 27, 2009)

BeenHuntn said:


> "it is finished..."... i believe that is Jesus saying that His work is done as far as saving a lost world.  i dont see where that has anything to do with "future sins"...
> 
> please use Scripture to prove me wrong... because the second half of my life would be far easier if i knew that all of my "future" sins were forgiven and i didnt have to worry about forgiveness of those sins...
> 
> ...



You are so right.
What we 'believe' will happen on that day has little effect upon God.

Isn't it 1John chap 1 that says:  "If you walk in the light as He himself is in the light, the blood of Jesus will cleanse you of all your sins."  (Not exact quote)

"Walking in the light" is very important.


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## CRT (Oct 27, 2009)

BeenHuntn said:


> "it is finished..."... i believe that is Jesus saying that His work is done as far as saving a lost world.  i dont see where that has anything to do with "future sins"...



Then it wasn't finished and Christ must be crucified again to pay for our "future sins". It's either that or we must pay the penalty and thereby can't be saved.



> please use Scripture to prove me wrong... because the second half of my life would be far easier if i knew that all of my "future" sins were forgiven and i didnt have to worry about forgiveness of those sins...
> 
> there sure is a lot of Scripture saying that we better stop sinning...  or else...
> 
> ...



Did you even read my post?? Just wondering because I think it answers the very question you pose here. Salvation is not a one time event. It is correctly understood that the Christian must and will daily repent of his/her sins and believe the Gospel. I see where you and Bro. Ronnie want to head with this thing, mainly that the belief that Christ dying for our future sins gives us a license to sin, but if you carry that to its logical end, you have legalism. 

I saw a sign yesterday at a church that said, "GPS to Heaven: Turn right and stay straight". That's clever, but that is not the Gospel, that is legalism. If your hope for salvation is in your ability to abstain from sin and not in the righteousness of Christ imputed to you through His finished work on Calvary, then you do not believe the biblical Gospel.

Then again, perhaps we are saying the same thing, just from different perspectives. It's hard to communicate on here sometimes.


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## BeenHuntn (Oct 27, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> Then it wasn't finished and Christ must be crucified again to pay for our "future sins". It's either that or we must pay the penalty and thereby can't be saved.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i read it and i would say that we disagree, kinda. there are plenty of verses in the Bible that say salvation is conditional. its conditional that we do our part. what do you do with these:

Romans 3:24-26
 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 

 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of *sins that are past*, through the forbearance of God; 

 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

and

Hebrews 10:26
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins...

seems like salvation is conditional.  God did His part and we have to do ours.  when Moses led the israelites out of egypt, they had to obey God or they did not receive the promises of God.

if all future sins are covered but we do nothing to stop sinning, how can we "work out your faith in fear and trembling"...?

Jesus says we show our love thru obedience to His Word. 

i want to believe it the way you do... but when you have verses like these it makes it hard to do so...


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## CRT (Oct 27, 2009)

BeenHuntn said:


> i read it and i would say that we disagree, kinda. there are plenty of verses in the Bible that say salvation is conditional. its conditional that we do our part. what do you do with these:
> 
> Romans 3:24-26
> 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
> ...



Paul is not saying that God only forgives or past sins and then we must live sinless. He is explaining that God did not just overlook the sins of Abraham, Jacob, David and all those who believed before the cross. He poured His wrath on Christ for those sins as well. 



> and
> 
> Hebrews 10:26
> For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins...



This passage is one of the strongest passage teaching Perserverance of the Saints, but it must be read in context.

When he said above, "You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings" (these are offered according to the law), then he added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He does away with the first in order to establish the second. _And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all._ And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. _But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,_ waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. _For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified._ And the _Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds," then he adds, "I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more." _Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin. Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, _by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. _Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. But recall the former days when, after you were enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings, sometimes being publicly exposed to reproach and affliction, and sometimes being partners with those so treated. For you had compassion on those in prison, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one. Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised. For, "Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay; but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him." But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls. 
(Hebrews 10:8-39)




> seems like salvation is conditional.  God did His part and we have to do ours.  when Moses led the israelites out of egypt, they had to obey God or they did not receive the promises of God.



Then it is not God who saves, but God in cooperation with us. Therefore, God is not sovereign either because His power depends on our cooperation.



> if all future sins are covered but we do nothing to stop sinning, how can we "work out your faith in fear and trembling"...?



That's the thing. The true Christian does not "do nothing to stop sinning" but instead strives everyday to keep from sin, asking God to "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil" and "forgive our tresspasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us". So we do not go on sinning (a lifestyle of sin), but when we do sin (as John is clear we will), we have an advocate, Jesus Christ the righteous, who is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. I would agree that sanctification requires cooperation with God, but it _will_ be completed because the true Christian _will_ cooperate. They _will _crucify their flesh and take up their cross daily and follow Him.

Here is a great illustration:

My son (he's five) and I are walking down a dirt road. I'm walking a little ahead of him (leading him). Because he loves me and wants to be like me, he is trying to walk in my footprints in the sand. But he just physically can't; his legs aren't long enough. So he looks funny stretching to reach my next step and sometimes he stumbles and falls. When he does, I don't go over there and condemn him, I pick him up and dust him off and we continue on, him striving to walk in my footsteps. As time goes on, he will grow and he will be able to walk more and more like me, and look more and more like me. That is a picture of us and our Father. We can't actually be perfect as He is, but we want to and we strive to. And when we fall, He picks us up and dusts us off and we continue on. The longer He leads us, the more we grow to look like Him until one day, we are taken up to be with Him and be glorified like Him.




> Jesus says we show our love thru obedience to His Word.



I agree. I believe the true Christian will alway be striving to obey his/her Master.



> i want to believe it the way you do... but when you have verses like these it makes it hard to do so...



I agree there are many hard and seemingly contradictory passages of Scripture. We have to understand that the weak link is our ability to interpret them correctly.

Sorry this post is so looooong, but I hope it helps. 

Soli Deo Gloria.


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## farmasis (Oct 27, 2009)

BeenHuntn said:


> "it is finished..."... i believe that is Jesus saying that His work is done as far as saving a lost world. i dont see where that has anything to do with "future sins"...
> 
> please use Scripture to prove me wrong... because the second half of my life would be far easier if i knew that all of my "future" sins were forgiven and i didnt have to worry about forgiveness of those sins...


 
Grace is not a license to sin (God forbid), and sin comes with a consequence. That consequence is no longer eternal seperation from God for believers, but it does break our fellowship with God, causes us to miss blessings, destroys our testimony, etc. etc.



> there sure is a lot of Scripture saying that we better stop sinning... or else...
> 
> in Rev, Jesus was talking to His churches and He kept telling them to repent... if they were already saved and did not have to worry about future sins... why did He keep telling them to repent???


 
With the exception of LowJack we will continue to sin as we go through the sanctification process. We should repent and turn away from our sins and stop living in them. We should ask for forgiveness and restoration.

Yes we should worry about future sin, yes we should do something about them, but NO we will not be seperated from God by them.



> seems to me that folks tend to take one or two verses and make a stand for "once saved" or "the elect" and do not look at the Bible as a whole... Scripture interprets Scripture... i think...


 
I got plenty of verses that show that scripture does interpret scripture for once saved always saved.


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