# Sabot vs Powerbelt



## Jagter (Nov 17, 2012)

I am completely new to muzzleloading. My question is, are sabot bullets a lot more difficult to load and foul the barrel up much more than Powerbelts for example?


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## FrontierGander (Nov 17, 2012)

bullets dont foul up the bore, the powder does.

What rifle are you shooting?


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## Jagter (Nov 17, 2012)

CVA Optima. Doesnt the plastic sabot cause any fowling?


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## Apex Predator (Nov 17, 2012)

I scrub after every shot with plastic sabots.  Everything I've read says the plastic builds quickly.  Much less so with the Power Belts.  Everything is a trade off!


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## 7Mag Hunter (Nov 17, 2012)

I use MMP sabots and have not had an issue with plastic fouling...

Powder is another issue........


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## miles58 (Nov 17, 2012)

Plastic fouling is the least of your worries.

If you haven't found Black Horn 209 powder yet, get some.  It's the least fouling of the powders I have used.  A lot of people have trouble with accuracy and terminal performance with Powerbelts.  A lot of people do not.  Sabots can be difficult to load when they fit too tight and you use a dirty powder.

You are beginning a journey which will teach you all of the basic things you need to know about rifles.  You need to do the experiments for yourself to learn what you like, what your rifle likes and why.

Try some of each.  Try to vary the loads with each.   Enjoy the trip.

Dave


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## NCHillbilly (Nov 17, 2012)

I don't like either one much. I like solid lead conicals or round balls.


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## Jagter (Nov 18, 2012)

Thanks for the advice guys, I'm sure its going to be a lot of trial and error.


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## tv_racin_fan (Nov 18, 2012)

Check into a TC maxi ball or maxi hunter. Look at the great plains bullet or some other minnie ball bullet conical.

Sabots gon cost you more most likely...
 If they dont then use em. Use em if ya like em. THAT is your choice.

I believe I would use a pure lead conical myself or sell that rifle and find one that can use pure lead ball. Pure led ball has killed every animal on land and some sea creatures as well.

Gimmie a 72 caliber double rifle and I'll hunt chargin rhino.  Two 75 caliber hard cast round ball gonna get in his head and stop him in his tracks. One will but Imma have two for safety purposes cause reloadin is a mite slow. AND Imma carry a 50 cal or bigger Howdah pistol as well.

No doubt that them sabots will do the job but then so will a corelokt... so will a round ball properly applied and that round ball gonna do it cheaper. It aint nothin but a round ball and some cloth with some lard on it...

IF you just gotta use a sabot, hey I can understand that ...

Why not try an MMP sabot and a 44 cal or 45 cal bullet. I would think a wide flat nosed lead bullet would be ideal. BUT you might like the better range ballistics of a pointed boat tailed projectile.. I understand, so use a lead pointed boat tailed projectile medium or hard cast if you like for more penetration/less expansion. It is cheaper to make therefore costs less to the consumer top produce a plain ole lead or led alloy projectile than it is to make a more expensive than lead cup and fill it with lead (cup n core... core lokt) projectile.

http://mmpsabots.com/

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/20...caliber-452-diameter-328-grain-lead-flat-nose


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## tv_racin_fan (Nov 18, 2012)

Miles I believe is the name.. he prefers those non lead projectiles...

I can understand he pushes em to their designed speeds and they do as he asks them. They pentrate better than lead (they harder they gonne do that) they control expansion at those speeds (they harder they gonna do that) they do not explode as a powerbelt will at those speeds (let that guide you to the speed you push powerbelts to, if ya like powerbelts I understand it aint nothing but a lead alloy conical, lead conicals killed every critter on the planet.. properly placed they will stop a buffalo or chargin rhino I know this cause they did almost to extinction).

Use what ya like but use it correctly. Do not push a powerbelt/pure ole lead round ball to jacketted projectile speeds they aint a jacketted projectile they dont work that way.


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## miles58 (Nov 18, 2012)

tv_racin_fan said:


> Miles I believe is the name.. he prefers those non lead projectiles...
> 
> I can understand he pushes em to their designed speeds and they do as he asks them. They pentrate better than lead (they harder they gonne do that) they control expansion at those speeds (they harder they gonna do that) they do not explode as a powerbelt will at those speeds (let that guide you to the speed you push powerbelts to, if ya like powerbelts I understand it aint nothing but a lead alloy conical, lead conicals killed every critter on the planet.. properly placed they will stop a buffalo or chargin rhino I know this cause they did almost to extinction).
> 
> Use what ya like but use it correctly. Do not push a powerbelt/pure ole lead round ball to jacketted projectile speeds they aint a jacketted projectile they dont work that way.



Well, yes I do prefer the solid copper bullets.  I find them to be more accurate ( in CF rifles too) and they unquestionably penetrate better and do  a lot of damage on the way through.  IMO they are the best bullets I have had available to me since I started reloading in 1956.  AND, that is by a very wide margin.  

But... In a muzzle loader I only run them at about 1700 fps muzzle velocity.  Unlike CF rifles I do not get good accuracy when I push them faster.  Fortunately, the Barnes T-EZ 250 grain bullets expand and penetrate well at much lower velocity.  They have a wider (MUCH WIDER) window of perfect performance than lead bullets.  And, this is across the board in every caliber I have tested them in.

In all fairness, I do not use a muzzle loader for any kind of traditional reason.  I use one strictly to expand my deer hunting opportunities with an accurate rifle.  I can hunt another "special" season, I can hunt in shotgun zones.  I built  couple of more conventional BP guns back in the erly 70s.  I used them n  classic manner and really had no appreciation for them other than the rifle was much more accurate than a shotgun with slugs.  

Dave


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## FrontierGander (Nov 18, 2012)

Is this Optima the new model with the finger removable breech plug?


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## Jagter (Nov 19, 2012)

Yep it is.


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## NCHillbilly (Nov 19, 2012)

miles58 said:


> Well, yes I do prefer the solid copper bullets.  I find them to be more accurate ( in CF rifles too) and they unquestionably penetrate better and do  a lot of damage on the way through.  IMO they are the best bullets I have had available to me since I started reloading in 1956.  AND, that is by a very wide margin.
> 
> But... In a muzzle loader I only run them at about 1700 fps muzzle velocity.  Unlike CF rifles I do not get good accuracy when I push them faster.  Fortunately, the Barnes T-EZ 250 grain bullets expand and penetrate well at much lower velocity.  They have a wider (MUCH WIDER) window of perfect performance than lead bullets.  And, this is across the board in every caliber I have tested them in.
> 
> ...



Shot a buck this morning with a Barnes TTSX-not ML, but centerfire-those things are deadly. Deer don't pick them up and carry them off.


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## miles58 (Nov 19, 2012)

NCHillbilly said:


> Shot a buck this morning with a Barnes TTSX-not ML, but centerfire-those things are deadly. Deer don't pick them up and carry them off.



I have yet to need to give any deer a second dose.  They have gone 50 yards or so max after being hit.  A good percentage go straight down.  The most remarkable thing to me is how they consistently go through so straight.  ?have never seen one deflect noticeably, no matter how much bone, no matter how close, no matter how small the bullet.

They make my life easier.

Dave


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## RUTTNBUCK (Nov 19, 2012)

Two Pyrodex 50 grain pellets behind a 295 grain CVA Powerbelt out of my TC Omega .50 has been the cats meow for me!!


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## tv_racin_fan (Nov 19, 2012)

RUTTNBUCK said:


> Two Pyrodex 50 grain pellets behind a 295 grain CVA Powerbelt out of my TC Omega .50 has been the cats meow for me!!


 
I can believe that. They work fine if driven to the correct velocities and you dont worry so much about an exit wound. Slow it down to like 70-80 grains that ought to be right in the powerbelt wheelhouse, it might not be for your rifle tho that always depends on the rifle.


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## DaddyPaul (Nov 20, 2012)

Hated PBs, never got a pass thru with them it seemed.  Switched to 250 grain Shockwaves and BAM, instantly started getting two holes in everything I shot.  Gonna try the Barnes offering if I ever run out of Shockwaves.


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## Jagter (Nov 20, 2012)

With Powerbelts do you have to swab the barrel after each shot, or can you do it after every 3rd or 4th shot?


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## FrontierGander (Nov 20, 2012)

every shot with powerbelts,conicals or sabots.

The ONLY time you do not have to swab is when using Blackhorn209.


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## Stroker (Nov 20, 2012)

I believe in the 295 Power Belt HP in front of 2/50's of Pyrodex. I'm a heart lung guy so I get complete pass throughs unless their inside 50 yards but those deer are DRT.


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## miles58 (Nov 25, 2012)

FrontierGander said:


> every shot with powerbelts,conicals or sabots.
> 
> The ONLY time you do not have to swab is when using Blackhorn209.



This is my experience too, and Dyna Bore Coat in the barrel does not seem to mitigate that one iota when I use pyrodex or 777.

Dave


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## shane256 (Nov 26, 2012)

Apex Predator said:


> I scrub after every shot with plastic sabots.  Everything I've read says the plastic builds quickly.  Much less so with the Power Belts.  Everything is a trade off!



It does... I have a T/C Pro Hunter and I run a Bore Snake through it every shot. When I do that, I can get good groups at 100yds. If I don't, by the third shot, it's already getting difficult to seat the bullet properly and the shots start opening up. By the fifth, it's terrible and looks like I've shot buckshot at the target or something.


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## Bowyer29 (Nov 26, 2012)

FrontierGander said:


> every shot with powerbelts,conicals or sabots.
> 
> The ONLY time you do not have to swab is when using Blackhorn209.


I can usually get 5 or 6 shots from my CVA Wolf shooting pyrodex and a TC Shockwave before I have to clean the barrel. Same when I shot PBelts. No pass thru with PBelts, always with the Shockwave. Shot one yesterday 70 yards, broke one shoulder missed the other bone. Quarter or larger exit wound. Dropped in tracks never moved.


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## Ezbagr (Dec 30, 2012)

I shoot a Remington Genesis with 110 grains of powder with a 300 grain Hornaday XTP Bullet in a MMP Ribbed sabot and I have shot 25 times without cleaning swabbing etc. and it is still very accurate.
  If you go over to hunting.net they ave a very good muzzloader forum over there with lots of information.


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## Glockit (Jan 6, 2013)

I shoot a Remington 700 MLS. .50 cal. I have been hunting with it for abou 16 years now. Seen a lot of muzzleloader trends through the years. Your gun will like a certain type of load depending on the rate of twist in the barrell and the gun it's self, keep that in mind. I have had awesome luck in my rig with Barnes Expander .250 grain MZ (all copper) bullets backed up with 90-100 grains of (back in 96 loose Pyrodex) now in 2013 100 grains of 777 pellets, also upgraded years back from #11 caps to musket caps, then since about 2004, 209 shotgun primers. 

Bottom line is you need to try different loads and get very familiar with your smokepole yo get the best results. Once you do you will have a weapon that will serve multi puposes, WMA especially for primative weapons, small game, wild hogs and even Corp of Engineers land on some of the lakes here in Ga.


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## Mr. Longbeard (Jun 28, 2013)

My gun has a 1-28 twist... It shoots sabot Awsome!!! Is say sabot over power belt... Just my 2 cents


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