# TRUE RELIGON



## MR. SCOOTINN (Dec 25, 2006)

What is the true religon or is there one?you have 100s of them out thier how do you determine between a false &  a true religon..how come the bible does not tell you what to follow..


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## 60Grit (Dec 25, 2006)

Easy......the Bible tells us to walk in our Faith in God,,, not religion.


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## MR. SCOOTINN (Dec 25, 2006)

faith --can be alterted buy your teachings & upbringing..if you are taught to belive a certain way..& that is all you know..then you have a faith..example..islam commiting suicide to kill others is a honor..here in most america christanity that is crazy..but both are faith based in the name of god..


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## dixie (Dec 25, 2006)

MRSCOOTINN said:


> What is the true religon or is there one?you have 100s of them out thier how do you determine between a false &  a true religon..how come the bible does not tell you what to follow..



It does, the Word of God written in Ten Commandments is VERY clear on this. Something to ponder, with every other religion, there's "worldly Proof" that the entity existed, with Jesus, there's nothing except the word of God. As Christians we have to literally take  the word of God that Jesus existed.


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## MR. SCOOTINN (Dec 25, 2006)

alot of diffrent faiths belive in jesus,,but have diffrent followings & teachings..


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## 60Grit (Dec 25, 2006)

MRSCOOTINN said:


> alot of diffrent faiths belive in jesus,,but have diffrent followings & teachings..


 
A lot of different denominations believe in Jesus, but true faith is a constant.


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## MR. SCOOTINN (Dec 25, 2006)

Constant in what?..the faith they have been taught..1) of the reason for my question is,,i went to a batist school ,been involved in the cathloc & mormon churches,,they all have thier own teachings & beliefs & claim to be the true church,,so how can a person tell..it seems as all faiths take what they want out of the bible & leave behind what they do not want..


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## dixie (Dec 25, 2006)

MRSCOOTINN said:


> Constant in what?..the faith they have been taught..1) of the reason for my question is,,i went to a batist school ,been involved in the cathloc & mormon churches,,they all have thier own teachings & beliefs & claim to be the true church,,so how can a person tell..it seems as all faiths take what they want out of the bible & leave behind what they do not want..



Mrs, I have a question for you, it sounds as if you've visted many different forms of Christian Churches. I haven't, and is why I'm asking this. Where did you feel the "main focus" of the Church was to Glorify and Praise God?


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## MR. SCOOTINN (Dec 25, 2006)

Praise god=baptist...glorify & praise god = mormons..i found the mormon church very strong in there belief & teachings & work to do gods will..but i find all of them to have something off track to what makes common sense..


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## gordon 2 (Dec 25, 2006)

"Off track to common sense." Perhaps you have your own answer in this statement.

Faith is not religion of course.  The common sense meaning of faith is "relationship with" perhaps?

Which religious groups better fosters positive relationships between individuals and groups? When these individuals speak of faith do they speak with fresh authority or are they towing a chaffed line? 

I have been to many different christian churches. I "feel" most at home in the church I was raised in, not only for sharing culture, but for great posibilities for spiritual growth. My church after all is said about it, positive and negative, it  is  especailly about spirituality.

However I can sit in any christian church and pray in faith.


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## jneil (Dec 25, 2006)

True religion is the one that gets you in touch with God


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## MR. SCOOTINN (Dec 25, 2006)

I agree in spirituality..& i belive i have it & i have faith in jesus christ..but in most churches if you do not follow there beliefs fully ,you  do not have faith..


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## Tn_Extreme (Dec 25, 2006)

MRSCOOTINN said:


> I agree in spirituality..& i belive i have it & i have faith in jesus christ..but in most churches if you do not follow there beliefs fully ,you  do not have faith..



The very reason you put what the Bible says over what a man/church/denomination teaches and preaches.

The reason we have so many churches is because people read the Bible out of context and out of its correct dispensational order.  The Bible itself tells us to "Rightly divide the Word of God".  That is why some faiths falsely teach water Baptism is essential for salvation. Others will find fault wth someone who refers to the Sabbath as Sunday instead of Saturday, etc, etc.


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## MR. SCOOTINN (Dec 25, 2006)

TN-that is what makes it hard for a person looking for some teaching & direction..plus the bible itself is confusing..it states that you should not kill..but there were many wars in the bible guided buy the lord,,were they did kill..makes it very confusing..


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## FERAL ONE (Dec 25, 2006)

i don't get into many of these type threads, but the translation that is often read as do not kill was originally "do not commit murder" there is quite a difference in the two.


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## MR. SCOOTINN (Dec 25, 2006)

What is murder if the following scripture does not describe it..              this is from judges.......17And he beat down the tower of Penuel, and slew the men of the city. 

 18Then said he unto Zebah and Zalmunna, What manner of men were they whom ye slew at Tabor? And they answered, As thou art, so were they; each one resembled the children of a king. 

 19And he said, They were my brethren, even the sons of my mother: as the LORD liveth, if ye had saved them alive, I would not slay you. 

 20And he said unto Jether his firstborn, Up, and slay them. But the youth drew not his sword: for he feared, because he was yet a youth. 

 21Then Zebah and Zalmunna said, Rise thou, and fall upon us: for as the man is, so is his strength. And Gideon arose, and slew Zebah and Zalmunna, and took away the ornaments that were on their camels' necks. 

 22Then the men of Israel said unto Gideon, Rule thou over us, both thou, and thy son, and thy son's son also: for thou hast delivered us from the hand of Midian.


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## FERAL ONE (Dec 25, 2006)

i knew better than to even try.... killing or (murder)in the bible was often talked about without all the facts known. like when the priests of baal were killed. they were official murderers of little children who would put babies in jars and build them into walls just to bless a house. others were killed to prevent a mixing pot of gods (little g ) and beliefs  which is the cause of most of the strife in the world today. as crass as it may sound, some folks just needed killin'. sorry, but finite minds trying to understand the reasoning of an infinite GOD are a real kick.


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## MR. SCOOTINN (Dec 25, 2006)

I belive in a infinite god..i guess you did not read my other post..i belive in spirituality & i belive in jesus christ..what i have a hard time with ,,are religons that claim to be the true one to follow & if you do not you are doomed..the scriptures i listed,they way i understand them is gideon slew them for killing is brother,,& if there are facts missing in the bible as you say ...then how do we determine what to follow & what not to follow.?


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## gordon 2 (Dec 25, 2006)

Tn_Extreme said:


> The very reason you put what the Bible says over what a man/church/denomination teaches and preaches.
> 
> The reason we have so many churches is because people read the Bible out of context and out of its correct dispensational order.  The Bible itself tells us to "Rightly divide the Word of God".  That is why some faiths falsely teach water Baptism is essential for salvation. Others will find fault wth someone who refers to the Sabbath as Sunday instead of Saturday, etc, etc.


TN,

It is not my intention to be contrary. My hope is I can be a fellow christian's companion. So take my views in friendship or if so inclined leave them, but I hope in friendship. I mean well and definitly do not mean to confront. And you know I might just be wrong on alot of points after all.

I personally understand that faith in Christ has a hand up on what the bible, the church or an individual says. What the Bible says is left to interpretations by all of the above.. The Bible's content itself is a creation of the early Church and some editing in the 16th century or so...

To parcel the Bible in dispensational periods is an idea of some 19th century protestants. I'm not saying you should not do it as it is bound to give fencing to some minds and promote some disciplined understanding. But...it is not the end all.

The hero's of faith are many. John Wesley's ministry is a good example of how some people's needs could be met.

One of the my favorite books is Kenneth Scott Latourette's A History of Christianity. The author, once the president of the American Baptist Convention, was a scolar at Berkeley College in Yale, and of course earnest in the faith. This Roman Catholic, me, has learned alot about other christians, many denominations, from this man's work.
I would suggest it a excellent reading to all so interested in the history of christian denominations and sects. He is an eye opener if faith and the rigour of academic discipline is appreciated.

Gordo


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## DartonHunter101 (Dec 25, 2006)

MrScootin

99% of christian based relions are very similar. Look at thier core teachings, and then compare to the bible. Research historical , non biased books for facts, and pray for help. Once you look deep at the different belifs maybe through process of elimnation you can narrow it down quickly. Remember Jesus said narrow is the path and cramped is the way to salvation, but broad and spacious is the way to destruction. So by Jeus own words the majority will be headed in the wrong direction. Be careful and study hard!


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## MR. SCOOTINN (Dec 25, 2006)

thank you darton,, i am trying..just to let you know were i am comming from..i am a recovering alcholic.11 years sober now..i could not have done it without faith in the lord above..over my last 11 years i ahve prosperd with a family & i am doing ok financially..but i want to bring my family in the right direction & teachings,,so iam trying to learn more..


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## DartonHunter101 (Dec 25, 2006)

MRSCOOTINN said:


> thank you darton,, i am trying..just to let you know were i am comming from..i am a recovering alcholic.11 years sober now..i could not have done it without faith in the lord above..over my last 11 years i ahve prosperd with a family & i am doing ok financially..but i want to bring my family in the right direction & teachings,,so iam trying to learn more..




Man That is a big achievement. Overcoming any addiction is not easy, I know faith had to play a big part. The truths found in the bible are compared to a hidden teasure. You might have to work to find them, dig hard, might take blood, sweat and tears, but in the end it will even refine your life even more, plus your family.  Most people this time of year are worry about what they are giving materially to their family, but the most valuable thing to give them is the truths only found in the bible. Be careful: there are only two sides, Our creator has one side, and Satan has the other side. He will do any thing to make sure you play for his side. Study hard and pray, and couple it with humility, and all will fit together like a big puzzle!


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## FERAL ONE (Dec 25, 2006)

scootin, i guess i did not make the best response to your post and i apologize. i did not mean to question your beliefs. my point (that i failed to make) was that there are circumstances surrounding a lot of the stories in the bible that are left for the reader to wonder about. i have found a lot of good info in the halleys bible handbook and several archeological hand books that talk about the places and tribes in the area. it is real easy for a believer to tell someone else that Jesus said he was THE way, THE truth and THE life. but it is not always easy for another to understand. i know that for every person that made the claims that Jesus did, there is a grave with bones inside it. i know that for every book that claims to be a holy book there are disputed facts (not necessarily theological, but historical and archeological) but the bible is still the most widely used archeological text today and has led to more discoveries than any other. 

but the best thing i can tell you, is that i know that this JESUS, this one that we turned our backs on and put on a cross, this JESUS reached out to a backwards, ignorant, undeserving fella like me and changed my life forever. the holy spirit let's me know when i am out of line .i am not smart enough to banter words and scriptures with  folks , the best testament any of us can give, is the life we live. i am sorry if i caused any hurt. and i hope you find the answers you are looking for, chris  (FERAL ONE)


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## Tn_Extreme (Dec 25, 2006)

MRSCOOTINN said:


> TN-that is what makes it hard for a person looking for some teaching & direction..plus the bible itself is confusing..it states that you should not kill..but there were many wars in the bible guided buy the lord,,were they did kill..makes it very confusing..



The BIble says thous shalt not shed innocent blood.... 

Wars are necessary evils....God smote entire tribes of people....The reason...They had forgot God and were polluting the land with idolatry and false religeons.


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## Tn_Extreme (Dec 25, 2006)

gordon 2 said:


> TN,
> 
> 
> 
> To parcel the Bible in dispensational periods is an idea of some 19th century protestants. I'm not saying you should not do it as it is bound to give fencing to some minds and promote some disciplined understanding. But...it is not the end all.


Gordon,

I see what you are saying and humbly disagree. The Bible tells us it is divided into different dispensations...It tells us to "Rightly divide" the word of God when we study it.


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## MR. SCOOTINN (Dec 26, 2006)

TN--i understand killing durring war is one thing but these scriptures..  has vengefullnes in them..gideon says plainly..if you did not kill my brothers that he would not slay them...& he ask his son to slay them & the son denies...i guess the lord wanted to teach the boy how to kill also?......19And he said, They were my brethren, even the sons of my mother: as the LORD liveth, if ye had saved them alive, I would not slay you. 

20And he said unto Jether his firstborn, Up, and slay them. But the youth drew not his sword: for he feared, because he was yet a youth. 

21Then Zebah and Zalmunna said, Rise thou, and fall upon us: for as the man is, so is his strength. And Gideon arose, and slew Zebah and Zalmunna, and took away the ornaments that were on their camels' necks.


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## NoOne (Dec 26, 2006)

If you want the Truth then go here. What is stated here is the Truth. I urge you to listen to the message. I was blinded by religion until Jesus opened my eyes to the Truth and set me free. 

http://www.jesuslovesme.org/onetrue.htm


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## Dixie Dawg (Dec 30, 2006)

MRSCOOTINN said:


> it seems as all faiths take what they want out of the bible & leave behind what they do not want..



  

And if that doesn't work, then they start their own church or give their own interpretation of the bible and say it's THE only way to read it 

Mrscootinn, I'm afraid I won't be much help in discovering which is the 'true religion', because I've come to the conclusion that there is none... but I will gladly share with you what I have learned.

The bible, whichever one you read, was written by men. Compiled by men. Translated by men. Distributed and published by men.  It doesn't matter if they claimed divine inspiration from God or not.  The fact remains it was written by men.

I believe the bible is an historical document, and each 'book' or part of it was written to correspond to the time it was written in.  Meaning, that certain phrases, words, 'prophecies', etc. were meant to be understood by the people living in that time period.  The book of Revelation is a perfect example.  There have been many studies and proofs that the book of Revelation was about the time period where the emporer Nero ruled and persecuted Christians.  And the people of that day understood it and knew what the author was referring to.  But that has been lost over the years and now it is viewed by Christians as a prophetic book with events that have not occurred yet, or are 'in the process of' occuring.  The fact is, you can take any text and twist it or make it fit your current situation if you try hard enough.  Religions have been doing this for years.

It isn't hard to understand this concept... just think if you took a car repair manual from today and went back in time and gave it to a mechanic in 1930... they wouldn't know what the heck to think of it, because they lived in a different world than we do today.  And vice-versa.

If you have a problem with religions saying their way is the only way, then that explains why you would question Christianity, because they are one of the religions that say this!

I believe that there is a greater force that created us (called God or whatever you want to call it), but that's about it.  I believe in karma... the circle of energy, be it good or bad.  I believe in energy... something that can be proven.  The only 'faith' I have is that the energy that makes us (some may call it our 'soul') does go on after the body dies... it is a proven scientific fact that energy never ends, and since we are made of energy, then that part of us must go on after the shell dies. Where it goes, I don't know.  But I don't believe it's to the version of hel! or heaven as the bible says.  As far as punishment and he!!, well, I believe he!! is right here on earth, just take a look around you.  There are people here on earth unfortunately who's lives are so desperate and terrible that burning in a lake of fire would be an improvement.  Nobody paid for my sins but me... I still pay for them and so do others that were affected by them. You don't wait until you die to pay for your sins, you pay for them here on earth, and those who are affected by your sins pay for them too.

Religion is nothing more than man's attempt to explain the unknown. Which really, I don't have a problem with... except for the judgemental ones and the fanatics.  They are the ones who ruin it for everyone else.

Congrats on overcoming your own 'demons' in the other aspects of your life, and much continued success and good fortune to you and your family!

Kerri


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## Tn_Extreme (Dec 30, 2006)

DD...
I humbly tell you that you will have a HUGE reality check when you pass from this earth and stand before God.  I sincerely hope that your heart changes and accepts the truth before it is too late.

You see, that "book" you believe is "written by men" speaks of someone who I have met personally, on my knees, at the cross he eas crucified on.  From that thing you believe is a mere collection of fables , I heard a message that opened my ears, crushed my heart, and changed my sinful, self destructive ways.  I have a spiritual side to me that isnt fake, isnt conceived in my mind, and isnt phony....  

Of course, you are like I once was...Carnal, unbelieving, and have a hardened heart that rejects the real truth of God and  his son that was sent to die for YOU.

The Bible says that scoffers will always be around, moreso in the latter days. Many different sects of Christianity will come and lead many to "the hot place" while proclainig to be the true church of God, while actually preaching and teaching a false gospel, another "jesus" and a broader road.

People need to quit placing their faith in a certain "Religeon", or "church" and start looking towars CHRIST and THE BIBLE for the truth.  Anything else wont work.


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## 60Grit (Dec 30, 2006)

Tn_Extreme said:


> DD...
> I humbly tell you that you will have a HUGE reality check when you pass from this earth and stand before God. I sincerely hope that your heart changes and accepts the truth before it is too late.
> 
> You see, that "book" you believe is "written by men" speaks of someone who I have met personally, on my knees, at the cross he eas crucified on. From that thing you believe is a mere collection of fables , I heard a message that opened my ears, crushed my heart, and changed my sinful, self destructive ways. I have a spiritual side to me that isnt fake, isnt conceived in my mind, and isnt phony....
> ...


 

TN, this is not a dig or a personal attack.

You speak of your terrible self prior to being saved. Was it alchoholism, drug addiction, or worse.

You can PM me if you don't wish to post a public testimony. But I am interested in your testimony and what brought you to this point in your life.

Scooter1


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## Dixie Dawg (Dec 30, 2006)

Tn_Extreme said:


> DD...
> I humbly tell you that you will have a HUGE reality check when you pass from this earth and stand before God.  I sincerely hope that your heart changes and accepts the truth before it is too late.



TnE, thank you for your concern, but I am truly not worried about standing before God (who yes, I do believe exists).  He is the one who created me, and he is the ONLY one who knows what I have gone through on my spiritual journey and what is truly in my heart.  Not you or anyone else.  So you see, I am not worried.  I trust that whomever or whatever created me knows exactly what I have gone through and why I have come to the conclusions that I have. If we truly are to be judged on our 'faith', then I, without a doubt, feel confident that the one who created me knows and understands me well enough to judge me on it.  You don't.



> You see, that "book" you believe is "written by men" speaks of someone who I have met personally, on my knees, at the cross he eas crucified on.



And where exactly would that be? This is the first I have heard that they found the cross that Jesus was crucified on.  I heard they thought they found a chunk of it, brought over by Charlemagne's mother during his reign, but last I heard they don't even know for sure exactly where the crucifixtion took place.....  



> From that thing you believe is a mere collection of fables ,



I never said it was a collection of fables.  On the contrary, I believe I referred to it as an historical document.  That is not the same as a 'fable'.



> I heard a message that opened my ears, crushed my heart, and changed my sinful, self destructive ways.  I have a spiritual side to me that isnt fake, isnt conceived in my mind, and isnt phony....



See, there is a common misperception.... people who don't claim a religion must be living a sinful, destructive life.  What a load of crap.

For your information, I happen to be an extremely spiritual person.  I have committed my share of 'sins', absolutely.  But it isn't a lifestyle.  I'm not out running rampant, sinning at every chance I get, wreaking havoc and destruction.  I am a positive, happy person who cares about people and the world around me.  I contribute to society in a positive manner, do what I can for those who are less fortunate, and TRY to treat others in a caring manner.  I don't always accomplish this because well, I'm human.

You can have a spiritual relationship with the Creator without having a religion.  In fact, in a strange way, I get the idea that that's what your Jesus was trying to teach in your NT.... too bad people don't read it like he meant it.





> The Bible says that scoffers will always be around, moreso in the latter days. Many different sects of Christianity will come and lead many to "the hot place" while proclainig to be the true church of God, while actually preaching and teaching a false gospel, another "jesus" and a broader road.



The 'hot place' is a myth based on a mistranslation of the original Hebrew scriptures.  It is also a pagan belief that has been 'borrowed' by Christianity to generate fear.  Christianity is not a love-based religion, it's a fear-based one... believe or you will burn.  And oh yeah, Jesus loves you.  



> People need to quit placing their faith in a certain "Religeon", or "church" and start looking towars CHRIST and THE BIBLE for the truth.  Anything else wont work.




I agree with you about the religion and church part.  Of course, I've always had that belief, even when I was a professed Christian.... I always believed it was more important to have a relationship than a religion.  So I guess in that respect, nothing has changed 

I do have to say thank you though, because this is probably the nicest reply you've ever written to me where we've also disagreed


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## Tn_Extreme (Dec 30, 2006)

Like I said DD...You havent got a clue and wont until your heart is in the right place to accpet the truth if Jesus.

From your reply I can see most of my previous post went WAY OVER YOUR HEAD when I spoke of things you cant fathom or begin to understand because of your blind, sin sick state.  Sorry for talking like someone who is saved by the blood of JEsus and who knows it is as real as the air we breath and the sun we see rise every morning.

One thing I will add though.... A person can be one of the most caring, humble, loving servant to mankind that ever lived and if they dont know Jesus Christ they are as lost as the vilest murderer or child molester.


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## Tn_Extreme (Dec 30, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:


> even when I was a professed Christian....


Professing and actually being saved is two different things.

if you were truly saved you couldnt undo what Jesus done. if you can walk away from God and your relationship with Christ and feel nothing it is a pretty good chance you were never truly saved in the first place. You just knew enough Bible and "church" to allow Satan to drive a wedge in between you and the gospel. In other words you had a "head knowledge" of Christ but no true "Heart knowledge" of him and his love and sacrifice he has for you.


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## Dixie Dawg (Dec 30, 2006)

Tn_Extreme said:


> From your reply I can see most of my previous post went WAY OVER YOUR HEAD when I spoke of things you cant fathom or begin to understand because of your blind, sin sick state.



  My 'sin sick' state? Wow TnE, I didn't know you knew me well enough to know anything of my sins?



> One thing I will add though.... A person can be one of the most caring, humble, loving servant to mankind that ever lived and if they dont know Jesus Christ they are as lost as the vilest murderer or child molester.



Which is another good example of why, as a religion, it is not able to be believed.  Anyone who seriously could believe that someone could commit their lives to helping others, whether it be caring for the sick, donating their wealth to the poor, etc. but be sent to the fires of dam-nation simply because they didn't believe in Jesus is ridiculous, and historically unbiblical.  If God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, then this would have been a requirement in Moses' time as well as Jesus'... but you NEVER EVER hear of this in the "old testament'.  EVER.  Why? Because that's not how their God (and supposedly yours too) worked. 

I am the one who feels sorry for you, TnE, that you are so close-minded that you can't see the Creator for what He truly is.


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## Dixie Dawg (Dec 30, 2006)

Tn_Extreme said:


> Professing and actually being saved is two different things.
> 
> if you were truly saved you couldnt undo what Jesus done. if you can walk away from God and your relationship with Christ and feel nothing it is a pretty good chance you were never truly saved in the first place. You just knew enough Bible and "church" to allow Satan to drive a wedge in between you and the gospel. In other words you had a "head knowledge" of Christ but no true "Heart knowledge" of him and his love and sacrifice he has for you.




Well, see there you go again, assuming you know me.

I never said I felt nothing.  You have to remember that my leaving the Christian faith was about 4 years ago.  My wounds have healed.  But it was not that way in the beginning.  Of course I 'felt' something. It was as if I had gone through a divorce.  This is something I had commited my life to and believed in.  I absolutely felt sadness, and remorse.  But I was also angry.  And relieved.  All the sudden, things that had never made sense, finally made sense!

You have no idea about me or anything I have gone through in my life.  I left Christianity at the age of 32.  You can't know how that felt to me.  But I guess you could try.... to put it in perspective, try imagining you, after 32 years of life, being told that your parents aren't really your parents.  Or maybe, after 32 years of being married, you find out that your spouse had a sex change before you met.  I'm sure you would be feeling some of the same feelings I went through discovering I had believed a lie.  But after a while, you get over it and move on.  So if it seems to YOU that I have no feelings, well, sorry... time heals all wounds, and over time the pain fades. Especially when I continue to learn more and more that supports my choice in leaving.

Again, you would do well to not put yourself in the judgement seat of God. Especially with people on the internet whom you know nothing about and have never met.


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## Tn_Extreme (Dec 30, 2006)

DD...

I iwll continue to pray for you...It is VERY evident you havent a hint of what the Bible says about our sin nature and the gulf that expanses between us and God. Without the blood of Jesus applied to our hearts we are lost and headed to "the hot place".
The BIble says that we cannot be saved(be a real Christian) without first being condemned a sinner in need of a saviour by the Holy spirit.

So yes..I do know all about you...in a general sense, by understanding and knowing what the BIble says about ALL of us.


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## Dixie Dawg (Dec 31, 2006)

Tn_Extreme said:


> DD...
> 
> I iwll continue to pray for you...It is VERY evident you havent a hint of what the Bible says about our sin nature and the gulf that expanses between us and God. Without the blood of Jesus applied to our hearts we are lost and headed to "the hot place".
> The BIble says that we cannot be saved(be a real Christian) without first being condemned a sinner in need of a saviour by the Holy spirit.
> ...




You're confusing the "Bible" with the New Testament.  The ORIGINAL scriptures ("Old Testament") said nothing about any of what you wrote.  But you don't see the truth because you are blinded by the lies of Christianity, the mistranslations and the misinterpretations, and the twisting of the scriptures.

If you believe what you posted about the requirements to be 'saved', then YES I WAS a 'real' Christian. I was saved at the age of 9 during Vacation Bible School at a Southern Baptist church in Jonesboro.  I reeked of condemnation. Was overcome with guilt and conviction and prayed ALL THE TIME for the 'Holy Spirit' and for the blood of Jesus to wash it all away, right up until age 32.  So don't think you know me or know anything about me. Once again, you're not God.

I appreciate your prayers, even if I don't believe in what or whom you are praying to. I know you mean well.  But I have to say, I'm not worried about going to your version of hel!.  If I do, I know for a fact that I'll have a lot of peeps from here to keep me company   And most probably don't think they'll be there, either


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## NoOne (Dec 31, 2006)

Tn_Extreme said:


> DD...
> I humbly tell you that you will have a HUGE reality check when you pass from this earth and stand before God.  I sincerely hope that your heart changes and accepts the truth before it is too late.
> 
> You see, that "book" you believe is "written by men" speaks of someone who I have met personally, on my knees, at the cross he eas crucified on.  From that thing you believe is a mere collection of fables , I heard a message that opened my ears, crushed my heart, and changed my sinful, self destructive ways.  I have a spiritual side to me that isnt fake, isnt conceived in my mind, and isnt phony....
> ...



Amen

The Bible from front to back is about one thing; and that is Jesus Christ. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3: 16,17.  This much I can tell you. There is the Truth which is Christ. How he came into the world and died in the place of, as a substitute for sinners such as you and I. Who took our sins away into the pit to never be remembered no more. Who was raised on the 3rd day for our justificaton, who is at the right hand of God; Our advocate ,and our eternal High Priest who has saved us to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever livith to make intercession for us. and then there is the Lie; The *****, who pawns itself off as the bride, Who always has other ways than Christ , who says the blood of Christ is not enough to save to the uttermost, that you can just be a good person, do this and that, join the church and you will be Ok, that God is a liar when he said that "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE, THERE IS NONE THAT UNDERSTANDETH, THERE IS NONE THAT SEEKETH AFTER GOD, THEY ARE ALL GONE OUT OF THE WAY, THEY ARE TOGETHER BECOME UNPROFITABLE; THEIR IS NONE THAT DOTH GOOD, NO, NOT ONE. THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN SEPULCHER, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY HAVE USED DECEIT; THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS;WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS; THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD; DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR WAYS: AND THE WAY OF PEACE "WHO IS JESUS" HAVE THEY NOT KNOWN: THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES. The Great ***** pawns itself off as the BRIDE "the CHURCH" ; but in the last day will stand before JESUS CHRIST at the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT and will say "LORD, LORD, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. That iniquity is anything that you put above the precious blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. Because if righteousness come by the law, then CHRIST is dead in vain.


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## Tn_Extreme (Dec 31, 2006)

DD,

Quite the contrary..The OT is all about Jesus Christ, his coming, his sacrifice for our sins, and his return .  Every chapter and book points to him.
I will pray for you. I am afraid God has let you go and allowed you to believe a lie.

God Help you....He is the only thing that can.


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## DartonHunter101 (Dec 31, 2006)

DD,

I am impressed. You have done your research. I think that is what the regilous extremist here fear about you.  You have been tried, judged, and would be excuted if possible. That just makes it easier to spot false religion. You have enough knowledge about the bible to realize those actions are not what is taught in the bible.  Hold to your guns and keep an open mind. There are 12000 different Christian religions. All putting different spins on something. The spin is put on by people not the bible, it has a clear message and plan. It happens to be a little hard to see by design.
I felt cheated also when I discovered that so much of what I had been taught all my life is false, but that is people, doing the twisting, who Satan has decieved. It is like a manufactor who has a great product that solves all your problems and makes life easier. He included instructions with the product, but his competitor, who has a terrible product, comes and puts a 100 different sets of instructions in the box. Now if you still would like to use that product and enjoy it's benefits you have to determine which set of instructions to follow. 
Hang in There!


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## addictedtodeer (Dec 31, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:


> But you don't see the truth because you are blinded by the lies of Christianity, the mistranslations and the misinterpretations, and the twisting of the scriptures.



I'm curious as to what you say are the lies of Christianity.
Could you, if you are willing, expand on these statements?
What do you see as lies?
What are the mistranslations and misinterpretations and the twisting of scriptures?
If you have already could you direct me to that post.
Thanks


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## Tn_Extreme (Dec 31, 2006)

DartonHunter101 said:


> people, doing the twisting, who Satan has decieved. It is like a manufactor who has a great product that solves all your problems and makes life easier. He included instructions with the product, but his competitor, who has a terrible product, comes and puts a 100 different sets of instructions in the box. Now if you still would like to use that product and enjoy it's benefits you have to determine which set of instructions to follow.



How sad....a Jehoviah Witness explaining to a non believer why all the other faiths are false. 

This coming from a man who adheres to a cult that has professed..FALSLEY...several times I might add.... the end of the world, whose members have allowed children to die because they refuse them medical treatment ,and has edited and re-dited their "bible" to fit their erroneous teacings when they come to be proven false.

Dartonman...I humbly ask you to not interject your nonsense to a already troubled, confused person.


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## Hawkeye (Jan 1, 2007)

Religion is what man does to get to God.

Christ is what God gave for man to get close to Him.

You choose, Man's way or God's way.


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## DartonHunter101 (Jan 1, 2007)

Tn_Extreme said:


> How sad....a Jehoviah Witness explaining to a non believer why all the other faiths are false.
> 
> This coming from a man who adheres to a cult that has professed..FALSLEY...several times I might add.... the end of the world, whose members have allowed children to die because they refuse them medical treatment ,and has edited and re-dited their "bible" to fit their erroneous teacings when they come to be proven false.
> 
> Dartonman...I humbly ask you to not interject your nonsense to a already troubled, confused person.




I have had several people, similar to you, who have not liked me trying to comfort, give hope, and bible knowledge to people, but you are definitly on a different level. I will tell you, just like Peter and John told the religious leaders in their day ( who were similar to you) that they would not stop speaking about the good news ( Acts 4:20). I am sure your insults and condemnation as really helped DD, but if she desires me not to address her I will respect her wish, but to you I owe nothing>Just a thought>> I am not sure you realize how you come across, nor how it makes all Christians look.


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## DartonHunter101 (Jan 1, 2007)

[How sad....a Jehoviah Witness explaining to a non believer why all the other faiths are false. 

[/QUOTE]

TNe I never mention that Jehovah's Witness are right and everyone else is wrong. DD has a very good brain and can make her own choices. I mainly was trying to relay that it is a process of elimination. But some can be easy to cross off as false by the fruitage their teachings produce.


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## Tn_Extreme (Jan 1, 2007)

Sir....You are not a Christian...You are a cult member spreading a false gospel and helping send people to "the hot place".

The "good news" you spread makes false prophecies, denies children and people medical treatment that would save their lives, and re-writes the Bible to suit their twsisted gospel of mind control and child abuse.


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## DartonHunter101 (Jan 1, 2007)

Tn_Extreme said:


> Sir....You are not a Christian...You are a cult member spreading a false gospel and helping send people to "the hot place".
> 
> The "good news" you spread makes false prophecies, denies children and people medical treatment that would save their lives, and re-writes the Bible to suit their twsisted gospel of mind control and child abuse.



Man that sounds like a personal attack?? Do you even know me? You sure don't know what I believe.I am glad you are in the right religon. Otherwise
you might have really shown me an ugly side of yourselve.


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## Tn_Extreme (Jan 1, 2007)

Nope...Not a personal attack...Just telling the truth behind what you believe.  Jehoviah Witnesses are not Christians...They dont preach the true Gospel of Christ. They preach a false Christ, a false religeon, and a entirely false message that leads people AWAY from God.

Now, I apologize, if within the last few weeks, you have renounced the Watchtower Society and their teachings and have been saved. 

Otherwise my posts stands as written.


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## 60Grit (Jan 1, 2007)

TnE,

A couple of questions for you, perhaps you will answer this one, since you ignored the last one.

Do you believe in the power of prayer??? Do you believe in the power of groups prayer??? Do you believe in the power of uplifting ones spirit through brotherly Christian support???

Just curious.


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## NoOne (Jan 1, 2007)

Hawkeye said:


> Religion is what man does to get to God.
> 
> Christ is what God gave for man to get close to Him.
> 
> You choose, Man's way or God's way.



Amen


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## Tn_Extreme (Jan 1, 2007)

scooter1 said:


> TnE,
> 
> A couple of questions for you, perhaps you will answer this one, since you ignored the last one.
> 
> ...




I havent ignoredany questions.

To answer these..

YES

YES

YES

Your point?


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## THREEJAYS (Jan 1, 2007)

After reading alot of this I understand better why Christ prayed that we would be one as he and the father are one


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## 60Grit (Jan 1, 2007)

Tn_Extreme said:


> I havent ignoredany questions.
> 
> To answer these..
> 
> ...


 
My point Matt is this..........

I have looked at your website, I have read your post on forums dealing with topics other than what you post on Woody's, I have read other articles about you on Google.

You seem to be a very mature, responsible, compasionate person on all of the other mediums. You seem to be well respected and admired in your community.

Why is it, that on Woody's you fail to ever, not in 650 some odd post, not ever once have you posted on the Spiritual Encouragement and Support Forum. Yet 90% of your post are on the Spiritual Debate, Discussion forum and the Political Forum, and a very small percentage on the Small Game and Hogs Forum.

Even worse, when on the two major forums on Woody's you do post on, you seem to be condasending, arrogant and out right insulting to people. I am perplexed by this after researching about you on the other sights and media mentioned above. This, on the surface, seems out of character for you.

What demon possesses you to tear people down only on Woody's but to be so kind and fair to all others that you deal with. What have we, the good folks of Woody's done to harm your business, your character, or your reputation in any way to deserve this?

Can you please clarify these looming mysteries please? I believe you are a good person and mean well. I would like for others here on Woody's to believe that about you as well.

Hugh


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## Tn_Extreme (Jan 1, 2007)

It seems you views about me are biased and swayed by your opposition of me concerning the purpose driven church farce.

I read the  Spiritual encouragement forum daily...Do I post on it frequently...NO....The reason being the BIble says Prayers in secret do more  and mean more than me chiming in on a post saying I am praying for someone..After being on dozens of tak forums over the ast 12 years I believe most is for show.  Just like on a local state oriented deer hunting forum I frequent....The same people claiming to be praying for someone's sick loved one on one thread is posting soft porn and telling lewd jokes and bragging about their latest drinking binge just a few threads away.

The Bible says God doesnt hear their prayers....

You see..Some people live in a fairytale world where anyone who calls themself a Christian is to be accepted no matter how wishy washy or outright false their profession is.  

It seems the only time people find fault with me on this forum is when I psot Bible scripture or do as the BIble tells us to and rebuke and try to help someone who is doing contrary to the Bible.  The Bible says a true believer will be thankful for the rebuking and understand they were wrong....A unbeliever will get mad,"Puff up" and go on in their sin and false belief.

Christ didnt come to this world to coddle everyone'e egos and make everyone happy. He told them "his way or [_]ell"  While I dont believe people should go around and do as the RCC did and sentence people to death if they didnt convert and go by their program I do believe we are to stand fast on the word of God and if it angers someone so be it. Jesus himself said his Gospel would rip families in half.

I have also found that on talk forums and in the "real world" some people raised up in a church with lax standards and a carnal nature about them hate someone to come along and just be blunt and straight out of the Bible.  Are they Christians...Probably...but they havent matured. They need something worldly and man-made to get them excited about  God and worshipping him.

As for me and my house, give us a KJV Bible and the zeal and want to live for him that was given to us the mometn we were saved, and that is all we need. If we cant learn and grow on our own  digging in Gods word and on our knees praying then something is wrong.


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## 60Grit (Jan 1, 2007)

Well Matt, at least we now know who, or rather what, we are dealing with.


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## NoOne (Jan 1, 2007)

The 'hot place' is a myth based on a mistranslation of the original Hebrew scriptures.  It is also a pagan belief that has been 'borrowed' by Christianity to generate fear.  Christianity is not a love-based religion, it's a fear-based one... believe or you will burn.  And oh yeah, Jesus loves you.   QUOTE Dixie Dawg

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son "JESUS" into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved

 He that believeth on him "JESUS"is not condemned:but he that believeth not is CONDEMNED ALL READY, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son od God" JESUS"

And this is the condemnation, that light"JESUS" is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

For everyone that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:16-21

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him "GOD" which is able to destroy both soul and body in H_ll. Matthew 10:28 ALL QUOTES FROM JESUS.... I"m in agreement with JESUS


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## Tn_Extreme (Jan 1, 2007)

scooter1 said:


> Well Matt, at least we now know who, or rather what, we are dealing with.




Go ahead...Tell me what your dealing with Scooter.


Good post FT.... Those verses never get old or read too often.


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## blindhog (Jan 2, 2007)

Tn_Extreme said:


> Go ahead...Tell me what your dealing with Scooter.
> 
> 
> Good post FT.... Those verses never get old or read too often.




I'd say we are dealing with a man who "contends for the faith once delivered to the siants".


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## Dixie Dawg (Jan 2, 2007)

addictedtodeer... I've posted many times my supportive biblical references on why Christianity is false... if you do a search for posts in this section by me, you will probably get more than you asked for  

But I'll give you just a couple quick examples... although in truth, only ONE is needed... because if ONE untruth can be found, it negates the entirety of the belief.

God said in the "Old Testament" that there is no vicarious atonement... that is, no one can pay for the sins of someone else.  An example of this is clearly demonstrated in Exodus when the Israelites sinned by making the image of the golden calf:
Exd 32:30 ¶ And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin. 

 Exd 32:31  And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. 

 Exd 32:32  Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. 

 Exd 32:33  And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. 

There are other numerous passages in the OT that mention how every man pays for his own sin.  If God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, then this still applies even now, and Jesus' death could not have atoned for anyone's sins.

Christianity believes Jesus was God in the flesh.  God disagrees... if you read Deuteronomy chaper 4, you will see that when God brought the Israelites out of the wilderness, He gave a long speech detailing why He NEVER appeared as ANY type of form, neither male nor female, etc PURPOSELY because He did not want the people to ever have anything to make an image of Him with.  If God is the same yesteday, today and tomorrow, then this proves that He did not come to earth in the form of a man. If He said it then, He still means it now.

Christianity believes the Law is 'waxed old' and that a 'new covenant' applies now.  However, the Old Testament repeats over and over again that the Law is eternal.  The Old Testament says that the Law is not to be added to, changed or taken from... yet the New Testament completely changes it.  Everything Jesus taught goes something like this:  "You have been taught XXX... but I tell you YYY."  That is against the Torah (or Law), which Jesus supposedly 'fulfilled'.  

Christianity says it is impossible to keep the Law.  But God said it isn't too hard;
Deu 30:10  If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, [and] if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. 

 Deu 30:11 ¶ For this commandment which I command thee this day, it [is] not hidden from thee, neither [is] it far off. 

 Deu 30:12  It [is] not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 

 Deu 30:13  Neither [is] it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 

 Deu 30:14  But the word [is] very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 

The idea that God is a man, born of a virgin, sacrificed for the sins of the world, are all pagan beliefs.  But don't take my word for it, research world and ancient religions and see for yourself.  Especially the pagan god Mithras, who was worshiped way before Jesus.  I think you may be shocked by the similarities.

I could go on and on... with how Christianity has made-up prophecies ( where is the prophecy referred to in Matthew 2:23?  ), or has purposely changed verses to make them prophecies about Jesus (see the difference in Psalms 40:7 (6) versus Hebrews 10:5), or translated words to fit the Christian agenda (Isaiah 7:14 with 'virgin' birth is just one good example of this), but it really doesn't make any difference if someone has already made up their mind that the OT is all about Jesus.  That's what I meant by taking off the Christian glasses.  If you read the OT for what it says, you won't find Jesus there.

Except maybe in one passage... 
Deu 13:1 ¶ If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, 

 Deu 13:2  And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; 

 Deu 13:3  Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 

 Deu 13:4  Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. 

 Deu 13:5  And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn [you] away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee. 

Whenever the topic of the NT is brought up regarding the origins of the books, Christians always reply back with some reasoning that God would keep only the books He approved of in the NT.  Well, Deut. 13 blows that out of the water. God does allow for false 'proofs'.   Turning water into wine, resurrecting the dead, healing the sick... not unbelieveable God would allow that, according to Deut. 13. He is testing his people, Israel, to see if they will stay by His Word (the Torah) or if they will follow after this man-god.

Christians forget one very important thing.  The bible was written as the testimony of the Israelites, and everything in it was for THEM, not for the gentiles.  Read it!  The entire "Old Testament" says "I command" or "for the house of Israel and the house of Judah".  NOT the gentiles (that would be any non-Jew)!

The Jews were commanded by God to be a light to the nations (gentiles).  They shared the Torah with them, but the Jews never required anyone to convert to Judaism.  They never said people were going to the 'hot place" if they didn't believe (hel! in the Hebrew bible is literally the 'grave', not a fiery pit of eternal torment. That's a  pagan belief).  There are MANY righteous gentiles in the Old Testament that proves this. 

If you really want to know what the 'bible' is all about, you have to take off the Christian glasses and read the OT from the beginning, and read it for what it says, not automatically assuming it is all about Jesus.  And try reading a version that is a more accurate translation than the KJV!

I may not be able to get back over here for a few days, so if anyone has anything to say, don't think I'm ignoring you.  The truth is there for those who really want to find it.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jan 2, 2007)

DartonHunter101 said:


> I am sure your insults and condemnation as really helped DD, but if she desires me not to address her I will respect her wish, but to you I owe nothing>Just a thought>> I am not sure you realize how you come across, nor how it makes all Christians look.



Hey DartonHunter! You can talk to me as much as you want! 

And I have to give credit to TnE... he's actually been very civil to me in this thread... compared to some other debates we've had in the past!    I can appreciate his devotion to what he believes, even if I don't agree with it.


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## Arrowslinger (Jan 2, 2007)




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## blindhog (Jan 2, 2007)

Dixe Dawg..."With God all things are possible."  found in Matt.

Da 3:17.."If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the fiery furnance,..."

1 Sam11:13.."And Saul said, There shall not a man be put to death this day;  for to day the Lord hath wrought salvation."

Isaiah  45:17.."Israel shall be saved in the Lord with aneverlasting salvation..."

Lamentations 3:26.."It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the Lord."

Salvation belongs to God, not man, He gives it as He wills.

Can anyone live the law perfectly?  Did anyone do it in the OT?


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## NoOne (Jan 2, 2007)

I'm sad that people just can't see that Jesus loved them enough to die for their sins. He paid the ultimate price because of his Love of the Father for it was the Fathers will that man be reconciled unto him. And he did that on the cross. God could have destoyed all mankind  in the day of Noel but Noel found Grace in the eyes of the Lord. God is merciful and as the Apostle Peter wrote "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise , as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. That same Grace is extended to every man, woman, boy or girl today. Just as the Ark brought Noel and his family thru the flood, So will Christ save those who trust in him to the uttermost. He's coming back one day for his bride the Church; The Church are those who Love him and look for his appearing. And why do we Love him? We love him because he first loved us.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jan 2, 2007)

blindhog said:


> Dixe Dawg...
> 
> Da 3:17.."If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the fiery furnance,..."



Did you read this in context?  If you're trying to say this refers to hel!... you should read the verse in context. It's talking about when Meshach, Shadrach and Abed-nego were thrown into the furnace by King Nebudchadnezzar... not hel!.  But that's another example of the scriptures being twisted to fit the Christian belief 



> 1 Sam11:13.."And Saul said, There shall not a man be put to death this day;  for to day the Lord hath wrought salvation."
> 
> Isaiah  45:17.."Israel shall be saved in the Lord with aneverlasting salvation..."
> 
> Lamentations 3:26.."It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the Lord."



In context, are those verses not talking about physical salvation? I read them... sure seems that way to me...  




> Can anyone live the law perfectly?  Did anyone do it in the OT?



Did God ever say He expected the law to be lived perfectly?  He knew people would screw up.  That's why He gave them ways to make atonement... only ONE of which was sacrifice... and sacrifice was not even His top choice.  He prefers prayer and repentance over sacrifice. If you need the verses, I'll be happy to provide.

But to answer your question... did anyone live the law perfectly... what do these verses say to you?  

 1Ki 11:38 And it shall be, if thou wilt hearken unto all that I command thee, and wilt walk in my ways, and do [that is] right in my sight, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as David my servant did; that I will be with thee, and build thee a sure house, as I built for David, and will give Israel unto thee. 

1Ki 14:8 And rent the kingdom away from the house of David, and gave it thee: and [yet] thou hast not been as my servant David, who kept my commandments, and who followed me with all his heart, to do [that] only [which was] right in mine eyes; 

1Ki 11:4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, [that] his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as [was] the heart of David his father. 

1Ki 15:3 And he walked in all the sins of his father, which he had done before him: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father. 

2Ch 6:16 Now therefore, O LORD God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that which thou hast promised him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit upon the throne of Israel; yet so that thy children take heed to their way to walk in my law, as thou hast walked before me. 

1Ki 3:6 And Solomon said, Thou hast shewed unto thy servant David my father great mercy, according as he walked before thee in truth, and in righteousness, and in uprightness of heart with thee; and thou hast kept for him this great kindness, that thou hast given him a son to sit on his throne, as [it is] this day. 

Those verses say to me that in the eyes of God, David perfectly complied with the commandments.  Yet, if one reads the "Old Testament", they see David transgressed and sinned many times... he committed adultery, had someone murdered so that he could take his wife, etc.  How is it then that God says David kept the commandments?

Perhaps it is because it is God never intended or expected us to be perfect?  And because God knew David's heart, He deemed him perfect in His eyes.  David wasn't perfect... but because his heart was right with God, God deemed him as perfect.  Jesus had nothing to do with it.  Sacrifices had nothing to do with it.  Intent of the heart, repentance and a will to serve God had EVERYTHING to do with it.

If you have a verse from the "Old Testament" that says God expects and requires us to be perfect, please do share.  I have never seen it.

If God intended us to be perfect, He wouldn't have given us free will.  But He knew we would screw up.  So He gave us means for making amends.  Prayer and repentance are at the top of His list.


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## blindhog (Jan 2, 2007)

David was righteous because of his Faith.  David accepted the Lord's salvation  in faith. That justified David.  By God's Grace David had eternal Salvation.

Repentance is the attitude needed to be washed by the Grace of God.  1 Peter 3:21

NO....I did not twist anything, I posted those scriptures to reinforce the fact that God IS able to do exceedingly above that which we can conceive, His ABILITY to forgive supplies our Salvation.

How can an everlasting salvation be physical?

Were not the OT priest required to make sacrifices, by commandment from God?

 God requires a sacrifice, or a payment to atone for sin, since He IS a Holy Judge without spot and cannot tolerate sin.
We need a covering to hide our sin from God, and He started supplying that when He slew beast for skins for Adam and Eve.  Blood was shed from the first sacrifice to cover man's sin from God.
Since God supplied a sacrifice from shed blood at the first, and required a continued work for this covering (sacrifices),  it only fits that He should supply a final sacrifice so sufficient as to please the Holy Judge.

FINAL PAYMENT MADE....JESUS THE CHRIST, SALVATION, THE LAMB OF GOD!!


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## redwards (Jan 2, 2007)

blindhog said:


> David was righteous because of his Faith. David accepted the Lord's salvation in faith. That justified David. By God's Grace David had eternal Salvation.
> 
> Repentance is the attitude needed to be washed by the Grace of God. 1 Peter 3:21
> 
> ...


Amen, brother!


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## Dixie Dawg (Jan 2, 2007)

blindhog said:


> God requires a sacrifice, or a payment to atone for sin, since He IS a Holy Judge without spot and cannot tolerate sin.




Well that's kind of funny, because God says in the bible:

Deu 10:12 ¶ And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, (13)  To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good? 

Nothing in there about requiring sacrifices.

Mic 6:6 ¶ Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, [and] bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old? 

 Mic 6:7  Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, [or] with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn [for] my transgression, the fruit of my body [for] the sin of my soul? 

Mic 6:8  He hath shewed thee, O man, what [is] good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? 


Hmmm... that flat out says God doesn't REQUIRE sacrifices.

Isa 55:6 ¶ Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: 

 Isa 55:7  Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. 

 Isa 55:8 ¶ For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 

Again, God says return to Him, and God forgives. Nothing about sacrifices.

Jon 3:5 ¶ So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them. 

 Jon 3:6  For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered [him] with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. 

 Jon 3:7  And he caused [it] to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water: 

 Jon 3:8  But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that [is] in their hands. 

 Jon 3:9  Who can tell [if] God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? 

 Jon 3:10 ¶ And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did [it] not. 

The people repented of their evil ways, and God forgave them and did not punish them.  No sacrifices there , either!

Proverbs 21:3  Performing charity and justice is preferred by God to a sacrifice.



God even warned against over-relying on the sacrifice system:
Jer 7:3  Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, Amend your ways and your doings, and I will cause you to dwell in this place. 

 Jer 7:4  Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, [are] these. 

 Jer 7:5  For if ye throughly amend your ways and your doings; if ye throughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbour; 

 Jer 7:6  [If] ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt: 

 Jer 7:7  Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever. 

Jer 7:21 ¶ Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh. 

 Jer 7:22  For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: 

 Jer 7:23  But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you. 

See also Daniel 4:27, Psalm 51:16-19 (excellent),  1 Samuel 15:22, and pay special attention to Ezekiel 18:1-4 and 19-23, where it talks about how every man pays for his own sin, no vicarious atonement.

God gave instructions for what to do for repentance and atonement when there was no temple or no ability to make a blood sacrifice:

Hosea 14:2  Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive [us] graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips. 

Hosea 6:6  For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. 

And the last one I'll post on this:
1Ki 8:46 ¶ If they sin against thee, (for [there is] no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near; 

 1Ki 8:47  [Yet] if they shall bethink themselves in the land whither they were carried captives, and repent, and make supplication unto thee in the land of them that carried them captives, saying, We have sinned, and have done perversely, we have committed wickedness; 

 1Ki 8:48  And [so] return unto thee with all their heart, and with all their soul, in the land of their enemies, which led them away captive, and pray unto thee toward their land, which thou gavest unto their fathers, the city which thou hast chosen, and the house which I have built for thy name: 

 1Ki 8:49  Then hear thou their prayer and their supplication in heaven thy dwelling place, and maintain their cause, 

 1Ki 8:50  And forgive thy people that have sinned against thee, and all their transgressions wherein they have transgressed against thee, and give them compassion before them who carried them captive, that they may have compassion on them: 

 1Ki 8:51  For they [be] thy people, and thine inheritance, which thou broughtest forth out of Egypt, from the midst of the furnace of iron: 

 1Ki 8:52  That thine eyes may be open unto the supplication of thy servant, and unto the supplication of thy people Israel, to hearken unto them in all that they call for unto thee. 


Sacrifice was not required.  Vicarious atonement was not allowed.  And human sacrifice was NEVER allowed, in fact it was strictly forbidden (it was a pagan practice).  So I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with your post, based on the Bible.


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## blindhog (Jan 2, 2007)

The sacrifice is not required, the "work", but the covering of shed blood is supplied by this, and we need a covering.
God does not save us by our "works".

Where does God say not to do sacrifices?

Fasting is a form of sacrifice.  Forsaking our fleshly desires is a form of sacrifice.


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## MR. SCOOTINN (Jan 2, 2007)

this is interesting


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## NoOne (Jan 2, 2007)

Only the Holy Spirit can reveal Christ to a persons heart. If they reject Christ after he has been revealed to them then as Jesus said in Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven: but blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. 

One of the greatest pictures of the Lord Jesus Christ is in the 22 Psalm. This is a description  of Christ on the cross


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## Dixie Dawg (Jan 2, 2007)

blindhog said:


> The sacrifice is not required,



You said in post 66 that sacrifice IS required, now you're saying it's not?  



> the "work", but the covering of shed blood is supplied by this, and we need a covering.



That is a Christian idea (which of course is fine, because you're Christian), that was never a teaching of the Torah. It is simply a spin that Christians put on the story of Adam and Eve to help support their belief about 'original sin'. It is not biblical.  Nowhere does God say anything about requiring a 'covering'.



> Where does God say not to do sacrifices?
> Fasting is a form of sacrifice.  Forsaking our fleshly desires is a form of sacrifice.



I'm guessing you didn't read any of the verses I posted above....     If you want the answer, you can go back and read them any time.


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## blindhog (Jan 2, 2007)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Nothing in there about requiring sacrifices.
> 
> Mic 6:6 ¶ Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, [and] bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?
> 
> ...




LEV 23:28.."AND YE SHALL DO NO WORK IN THAT SAME DAY:  FOR IT IS A DAY OF ATONEMENT, TO MAKE ATONEMENT FOR YOU BEFORE THE LORD YOUR GOD."

HOW IS PAYMENT MADE WITHOUT WORK?

NE 10:33.."AND FOR THE SIN OFFERINGS TO MAKE AN ATONEMENT FOR ISRAEL..."

LE 4:20..."AND HE SHALL DO WITH THE BULLOCK AS HE DID WITH THE BULLOCK FOR A SIN OFFERING, SO SHALL HE DO WITH THIS;  AND THE PREIST SHALL MAKE AN ATONEMENT FOR THEM; AND IT SHALL BE FORGIVEN THEM."

FROM THE BIBLE....VICARIOUS ATONEMENT BY THE PRIEST!

HEB 2:17..."WHEREFORE IN ALL THINGS IT BEHOVED HIM TO BE MADE LIKE UNTO HIS BRETHREN, THAT HE MIGHT BE A MERCIFUL AND FAITHFUL HIGH PRIEST IN THINGS PERTAINING TO GOD, TO MAKE RECONCILIATION FOR THE SINS OF THE PEOPLE."

PRAISE JESUS THE LAMB OF GOD!!  THE KING AND HIGH PRIEST


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## blindhog (Jan 2, 2007)

Dixie Dawg said:


> You said in post 66 that sacrifice IS required, now you're saying it's not?
> 
> YOU TAKE THAT OUT OF CONTEXT IN ORDER TO TWIST MY MEANING IN THAT POST, GO BACK AND RE-READ IT.
> 
> ...



PRAISE JESUS THE WORD THAT BECAME FLESH THAT WE MIGHT HAVE LIFE EVERLASTING!!!


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## Dixie Dawg (Jan 2, 2007)

blindhog said:


> LEV 23:28.."AND YE SHALL DO NO WORK IN THAT SAME DAY:  FOR IT IS A DAY OF ATONEMENT, TO MAKE ATONEMENT FOR YOU BEFORE THE LORD YOUR GOD."
> 
> HOW IS PAYMENT MADE WITHOUT WORK?



I'm not understanding your question....?



> NE 10:33.."AND FOR THE SIN OFFERINGS TO MAKE AN ATONEMENT FOR ISRAEL..."
> 
> LE 4:20..."AND HE SHALL DO WITH THE BULLOCK AS HE DID WITH THE BULLOCK FOR A SIN OFFERING, SO SHALL HE DO WITH THIS;  AND THE PREIST SHALL MAKE AN ATONEMENT FOR THEM; AND IT SHALL BE FORGIVEN THEM."
> 
> ...



You need to go back and read the entire chapter of Leviticus that you quoted.  If you do , you will see that the ENTIRE CONGREGATION of Israel was to bring the bullock to the priest.  It was an offering made by the ENTIRE CONGREGATION of Israel, not a vicarious atonement by the priest alone.

If you are attempting to compare that to Jesus' vicarious atonement, well, the only way to do that would be if the priest had sacrificed HIS OWN body, like Jesus is said to have done.  But of course, you won't find that, because human sacrifice is forbidden by God.

By the way, if you hadn't noticed yet, sacrifices of ANY kind were ONLY for UNINTENTIONAL sins.  If you sinned on purpose or knowingly, there was/is no sacrifice for your sin.  Forgiveness came with repentance, turning back from your sin,  not with sacrifice.


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## blindhog (Jan 2, 2007)

Wow, you ignore plainly written scriptures.  Then you explain salvation without understanding it at all.

The penalty for sin is death,(or do you disagree?), so if a priest sacrifices a bull for me instead of me....well....if I don't die then I ain't paid yet, have I?

Do you think one can remember every sin committed every day?

Jesus forgave and paid for ALL sins, past present and future.
So I have unintentional forgotton sins forgiven, and the indwelling Holy Spirit will convict me to repent and ask forgiveness for intentional sins...

Of which HE is faithfull to forgive!!

PRAISE THE LORD OF HOST, THE MIGHTY KING, EMANUEL, THE LAMB, THE SAVIOUR, THE LORD OF ALL CREATON
JESUS!!!!!


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## redwards (Jan 3, 2007)

Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> ...God said in the "Old Testament" that there is no vicarious atonement... that is, no one can pay for the sins of someone else.....


By 'vicarious' do you mean?
*



2 : performed or suffered by one person as a substitute for another or to the benefit or advantage of another : [SIZE=-1]SUBSTITUTIONARY[/SIZE] <a vicarious sacrifice>
		
Click to expand...

*Then please explain these verses of scripture from the "Old Testament".


> 2 Samuel 21:1-9
> _1_ Now there was a famine in the days of David for three years, year after year; and David sought the presence of the LORD. And the LORD said, "It is for Saul and his bloody house, because he put the Gibeonites to death." _2_ So the king called the Gibeonites and spoke to them (now the Gibeonites were not of the sons of Israel but of the remnant of the Amorites, and the sons of Israel made a covenant with them, but Saul had sought to kill them in his zeal for the sons of Israel and Judah).
> _*3 Thus David said to the Gibeonites, "What should I do for you? And how can I make atonement that you may bless the inheritance of the LORD?" *_
> _4_ Then the Gibeonites said to him, "We have no {concern} of silver or gold with Saul or his house, nor is it for us to put any man to death in Israel." And he said, "I will do for you whatever you say."
> ...


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## Dixie Dawg (Jan 3, 2007)

redwards said:


> By 'vicarious' do you mean?
> 
> Then please explain these verses of scripture from the "Old Testament".
> 
> 3 Thus David said to the Gibeonites, "What should I do for you? And how can I make atonement that you may bless the inheritance of the LORD?"



Did you read the verses you quoted?

David did not make an atonement to God.  David asked the Gibeonites what he could do for THEM, not for God.  He asked how he could make up for the injustice that had been done to them.  Not to God.  The people were being punished for the injustices they had done to the Gibeonites. They had to 'make it up to' the Gideonites.  Nothing there about making atonement to God?


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## blindhog (Jan 3, 2007)

Le 4:20...."and the priest shall make an atonement FOR them.."

Straight Bible....plainly written....not taken out of context....

Somebody ELSE is going to vicariously atone for them, a priest,  plainly written......


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## NoOne (Jan 3, 2007)

Blindhog, and all those who believe and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ; You are wasting your time with this liar, deceiver, and antichrist. All who love the Lord should shun her completely according to the word of God.

Paul wrote to Titus;

 Titus Chapter 3:10 A man "or anybody" that is a hertic after the first and second admonition reject; knowing that he "or whoever" is subverted "warped", and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

1 John 2: 18-23 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they  might be made manifest that they were not all of us.But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he "or she" that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He "or she" is antichrist, that denieth the father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: but he  that acknowledgeth the Son hath the father also.

1 John 4: 1_6 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits weather they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Ye are of God,little children,and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in  you, than he that is in the world. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered  into the world, who confess not that Jesus christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.


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## 60Grit (Jan 3, 2007)

fishing technician said:


> Blindhog, and all those who believe and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ; You are wasting your time with this liar, deceiver, and antichrist. All who love the Lord should shun her completely according to the word of God.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## NoOne (Jan 3, 2007)

I'll stand on what Gods word says any day to what man has to say. Let God be true but every man a liar


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## NoOne (Jan 3, 2007)

And this is what Gods word says, not mine, if you have a problem with that then you need to take that up with the Lord. Its a dangerous thing when you trample under foot the precious blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.


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## Jim Thompson (Jan 3, 2007)

getting real real close to either shut this forum down completely or remove it permanently.

a small handful of folks (from both sides of the isle) are making it real real difficult for the normal fella to even stop by.

It would seem that your God (no matter your religion) would not want the garbage being spewed by so many of you to be voiced.

How about 20 or so of you expand your ignore lists so that everyone else here will not have to hear you constantly digging at each other.


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## HuntinTom (Jan 3, 2007)

Thanks Jim...


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