# Seeing through smoked glasses?



## gordon 2 (Dec 20, 2011)

What does this mean and does it still apply today.


1 Corinthians 13:12

King James Version (KJV)




 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
---------------------------------------

In my clumsy sort of way, I'm wondering...just because Paul saw darkly say about the coming Kingdom for example, does it follow that christians today are no closer to the face of God than he was?  or that we might know a little more about God as " we are known." As Paul had only to look ahead with hope and in faith of a soon coming Kingdom, we have 2000yrs hindsight as a sifter of what was ore and what was dross--for what the way of God in this matter of Jesus proved to us to be?

If we see more closely with the glasses of grace do we not see God more fully as He likewise ever saw us? If we see for the mentoring of His Holy Spirit, and  for the lives of the saints that preceeded us, do we not see more fully our Father?

Am I off base here ?what do you think.?... Any good news to share on this welcomed.


----------



## Israel (Dec 21, 2011)

I don't know that history helps us.
I find it more often gets in the way.
Like dust that has covered a treasure till only a vague outline of the treasure chest remains...we need to uncover, each of us, till we get to see.
2000 years of the name of Jesus, from enemy of Rome (no Roman citizen needed to have the significance of following one who was crucified explained to them...and to call him, not Caesar, Lord) to today...when his name is plastered on billboards and in yellow pages, broadcast (here) without fear over radio and TV...

One may say "see the impact the Lord has had...the world is beginning to accept him"...

I am not persuaded of that at all...and the more I uncover (to me it is so)...the call and peril remain the same..."I do testify that all of the worlds works are evil"...and what does that mean...to me?


----------



## hummerpoo (Dec 21, 2011)

I don't think that time can benefit us in clearing the smoke.  Paul used the analogy of a child and a man to indicate the difference in our ability to know God in this life and how we will know Him when in His presence.  With respect, the analogy seems to me terribly inadequate.  The span between us and God seems to me infinite.

Does he advise that our greatest tool in narrowing the span is love (vs. 14)?  I think that is his point, and probably applies to both this life and the next.


----------



## formula1 (Dec 21, 2011)

*Re:*

When you see Him face-to-face, truth is no longer dim and debatable.  The Light becomes clear and your darkness is evident and fearful.  Without Jesus Christ, we'll never stand in that unnapproachable Light of our own accord.  But Faith, Hope, and Love in the  King of Glory will see me through that day, albeit with much fear and trembling.  The Gift is our only hope indeed!


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 21, 2011)

Israel said:


> I don't know that history helps us.
> I find it more often gets in the way.
> Like dust that has covered a treasure till only a vague outline of the treasure chest remains...we need to uncover, each of us, till we get to see.
> 2000 years of the name of Jesus, from enemy of Rome (no Roman citizen needed to have the significance of following one who was crucified explained to them...and to call him, not Caesar, Lord) to today...when his name is plastered on billboards and in yellow pages, broadcast (here) without fear over radio and TV...
> ...



Your right about the extremes of the fish people, but is everthing on earth only of the "world" or of the world's works? For example I do not cower that you have cared to answer my queries, matter of fact for these your words and your works I am vaulted that much closer to the will of my Lord.???? So all the world's works might be evil, but the brothers and sisters and the deciples near and even far away they are not to that world.??? Nor are their efforts and works...???

And for you, as a christmas offering, I changed my avatar. It is moi and the pict is a little cloudy and most fitting I guess. Note that I will return to "waring"my black shirt after the Holidays. Peace bros.


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 21, 2011)

hummerpoo said:


> I don't think that time can benefit us in clearing the smoke.  Paul used the analogy of a child and a man to indicate the difference in our ability to know God in this life and how we will know Him when in His presence.  With respect, the analogy seems to me terribly inadequate.  The span between us and God seems to me infinite.
> 
> Does he advise that our greatest tool in narrowing the span is love (vs. 14)?  I think that is his point, and probably applies to both this life and the next.



Yes I agree the analogy is raw, it is blending lemons and oranges, however I'm hoping for a both sweet and sower result. LOL

Now you are more than correct that the narrowing is love and no less than the great love Paul himself preached and wrote about. So my point in this light remains that if we have 2000 yrs of Ronnie T's preaching on the love that all saints know, than should our relationship with God not be clearer today than long ago. 

For example as societies of old suffered good and ill from the the degrees of benevolence of their monarchs and prefects, but only for short periods of time, in Christ the everlasting gift of grace and salvation is not for a time only.

If our salvation is not only individual but as a people, the people of God, than why should we be different than the Hebrews which God tutored according to his will as generations came and gave place to others....

For example the Kingdom that we seem to understand that Paul was waiting for and indeed preaching on, ( that later the gospels  would decribe as mustard seed) do we now have a better or broader understanding  on the Kingdom than even this greatest of all saints had?

Granted we ourselves have our own thorns to our sides--and seeing the face of God for us is not always easy... I now wonder if Paul's understanding or hope in end times was not his thorn and his blindness? The eminance of the second coming that Paul expects at anytime, just did not materialise, but we now know that it spiritualised, in the church and in the world and through out the world or everywhere on earth. 

Yes? No? Maybe?


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 21, 2011)

formula1 said:


> When you see Him face-to-face, truth is no longer dim and debatable.  The Light becomes clear and your darkness is evident and fearful.  Without Jesus Christ, we'll never stand in that unnapproachable Light of our own accord.  But Faith, Hope, and Love in the  King of Glory will see me through that day, albeit with much fear and trembling.  The Gift is our only hope indeed!



That day, in my estimation has come to you. When did you not visit the poor, the sick and those in prison?  When you visit them Fear not, Tremble not, there you are face to face with our Lord who's son was a peaceful man. And that face-to-face is your face and God's face... in the peace of grace. (I don't think I'm out of scripture, line  or spirit here.)???

Perhaps? Maybe? Kinda? Somehow? Yesterday? Now? and Forever.

Do you have a verse to push me along? Or to hold my sins back?

Just because God's face would blind and burn up Moses if he did not lower his head to the burning bush, does it follow that christians should lower their heads and their sites to the tree of life? Does grace and eternal life have its shames? Somehow I don't think so.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Dec 21, 2011)

I think that this is about the fact that God has better plans for us than we hope for. "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind conceived what God has prepared for those that love him.". The topic here is about gifts. People in charasmatic churches today all seem to have the same goal. To speak in tounges. Must have been similar back then. Paul elsewhere implies, why tounges, it is the least of the gifts. He tells us that the greatest gift is Love. If you have the gift of prophesy, it will cease. One day, we will know, no need for prophesy, we will see face to face. Now we see but a shadow of the things to come. Now we don't realize what's in store for us. We still see ourselves as sinners. But God see's us as Saints. He has predestined us to be conformed to the image of his Son. Confident of this, he who has began a good work in us will carry it on to completion. God see's the end result


----------



## Israel (Dec 21, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Your right about the extremes of the fish people, but is everthing on earth only of the "world" or of the world's works? For example I do not cower that you have cared to answer my queries, matter of fact for these your words and your works I am vaulted that much closer to the will of my Lord.???? So all the world's works might be evil, but the brothers and sisters and the deciples near and even far away they are not to that world.??? Nor are their efforts and works...???
> 
> And for you, as a christmas offering, I changed my avatar. It is moi and the pict is a little cloudy and most fitting I guess. Note that I will return to "waring"my black shirt after the Holidays. Peace bros.



Gordon, I shouldn't try to address a thread of yours on my way to work, with the clock's demands and all. You do deserve a better and fuller (if not longer) consideration.

I could never claim anything I do...or have ever done, is untarnished in any way by worldly taint. 
What I'd hoped to convey to ever so poorly was that regarding history, I don't see building upon time. I do see a building upon revelation, though, which I conceive is completely and utterly timeless. To stand on Paul's shoulders I am convinced would not bother him a whit, indeed, I believe he invites it. 

But first, to stand on someones shoulders at least requires a proximity, does it not? And for that, it would surely only be the work of God to help us see what Paul sees/saw...and even for that, there needs be a place where we first take off our shoes (it's unkind to stand shod upon someone) but really...more clearly, to know we are called to a holy pursuit, where fleshly presumption must be, if not completely abandoned...at least recognized as a peril in our endeavor. (Do I make any sense at all?) 

It's easy to "read" Paul's words in my recliner with a cup of tea, and deceive myself "OK, I've got justification down...what's the next lesson?.." 

You now what I mean? 


There may be a difference between that and sitting in a jail cell in despair of life itself...having been thrown there after walking in the conviction of the grace of the gospel and finding some religious devotees very willing to manufacture false accusations against me to put me there...where I now might consider "did I miss you Lord? Am I walking in presumption? did I go "too far"?" Is my sitting in this damp cell a chastening? A reward? precisely where my own willfulness had led? 

Or is it by some strange twist...exactly where grace must lead...so that someone can apprehend grace and rightfully pray for the accusers? Is it that there may well be something in the prayers and supplications of one falsely accused that contain a power of salvation unfound when we casually pray for "loved ones?" 
(But I despise no prayer)

To me "forgive them father, for they know not what they do..." born out of blood impoverished body, uttered through broken teeth and a spit stained face...may indeed be the precise place where the mercy of God is greatest. And demonstrated with the most power, and, perhaps also, eternal benefit. 
(What would have happened had the words been..."OK, send that 12 Legions of angels...right now!"?)


Talk about wordy huh? Forgive me Gordon. Maybe I am saying what could be summed up in this. I don't believe anywhere that God forbids us from outstripping (dare I say it?) even Paul. But that would always be according to his grace and choosing as demonstrated through revelation.

But first...we would surely have to at least attain to what he attained...to be near enough to ask...Paul...may I stand upon your shoulders? 

And as surely as I believe we could agree: 
It is only God's work, and God's grace through Christ that could accomplish this...

But, here we may or may not agree: 

We would also have to attain to that measure in truth.

The things (I believe) we truly learn, are worked out in our flesh. 
Perhaps not in our recliner. 

And although I am not saying/accusing you of being an armchair prophet (for God could also work in an afternoon of dozing in a La-Z-Boy what shipwrecks, stonings, beatings, long nights of tears on knees...brought others to "need" to see...for He alone is, after all, God) 

I can only answer for myself. I cannot exalt "experience"...over God's sovereign will to do anything of revelation in a believer's life. 
But it just seems there's a reality of walking out something that God would have us know...not in order to be "worthy" to receive something...but to learn the joy of discovering all we already truly have.

In short, a man with many scars and bruises...but with the glint of life in his eyes that tells me "I have in all things learned the secret of being content..." has a testimony that bears (at least to me)...hearing. 

A well coiffed, gold braceleted fellow parading across a stage may have a little more work in getting my ear.

Yet...even so, I must admit...if God wills...the scarred man could be the deceiver sent to me...while the dandy looking one could be Christ himself.

What do I know?

Unless Jesus saves me, I am lost.


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 21, 2011)

Dear Isreal, 

quote:Talk about wordy huh? Forgive me Gordon. Maybe I am saying what could be summed up in this. I don't believe anywhere that God forbids us from outstripping (dare I say it?) even Paul. But that would always be according to his grace and choosing as demonstrated through revelation. end quote.

What is this revelation you speak about?


----------



## Israel (Dec 21, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Dear Isreal,
> 
> quote:Talk about wordy huh? Forgive me Gordon. Maybe I am saying what could be summed up in this. I don't believe anywhere that God forbids us from outstripping (dare I say it?) even Paul. But that would always be according to his grace and choosing as demonstrated through revelation. end quote.
> 
> What is this revelation you speak about?



1Jn_3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, _when he shall appear, we shall be like him_; for we shall see him as he is. 

The how of that is in his hands, the measure to which he appears to any of us. 
Does he want to show us his fullness?...of that I am convinced.
Must it always be through a glass darkly? 
I am afraid I leave you no further along than when first you asked.
But Paul said this, and perhaps this will take care of all the wondering as to how much we may "get to see"...

I press on...

I press on...


----------



## StriperAddict (Dec 21, 2011)

I hope I am always willing to have Providence speak to me from the foxhole as well as the armchair, I only pray I'd have discernment as truth is making its mark within, and not deception.  Thanks Israel for pointing out both sides, and that its Gods business to use whatever means to speak to us. We might not see the angel at our door for want of the charismatic preacher, to our loss.  God help us as we see dimly through the dark glasses, and that our weakness is opportunity for His wisdom and strength to cut thru the darkness.

Perhaps we don't see clearly because His light is for others, through us earthen vessels, to work His love. In vain would we pat ourselves on the back; yes we might need the "thorn" to keep us from exalting ourselves. 

Perhaps the smoky glasses also gives us a revelation of a different kind, the wanting after the greater intimacy we are promised when we loose our mortal body, seeing Him who is now presently unseen with the eyes of flesh. Yet He draws us closer to the hope that is unseen, killing false earthly gods, or anything apart from Christ. 

I'll admit I long for seeing Him face to face and have the chains of the power of sin be released in glory. 

Romans 8:18<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-28135"></sup>For I reckon  that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared  with the glory which shall be revealed in us.


----------



## Israel (Dec 21, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> I hope I am always willing to have Providence speak to me from the foxhole as well as the armchair, I only pray I'd have discernment as truth is making its mark within, and not deception.  Thanks Israel for pointing out both sides, and that its Gods business to use whatever means to speak to us. We might not see the angel at our door for want of the charismatic preacher, to our loss.  God help us as we see dimly through the dark glasses, and that our weakness is opportunity for His wisdom and strength to cut thru the darkness.
> 
> Perhaps we don't see clearly because His light is for others, through us earthen vessels, to work His love. In vain would we pat ourselves on the back; yes we might need the "thorn" to keep us from exalting ourselves.
> 
> ...



amen brother...
and I hope I didn't overdo the arm chair vs jail cell issue.
For all I know, Paul had an armchair, too.


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 21, 2011)

Israel said:


> 1Jn_3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, _when he shall appear, we shall be like him_; for we shall see him as he is.
> 
> The how of that is in his hands, the measure to which he appears to any of us.
> Does he want to show us his fullness?...of that I am convinced.
> ...



Why is it that I know that I know my Father more than I ever knew my father? My Father's breath moves me like a feather in the wind and I fear not where He guides me; and my father moved and guided me with his hand and when life left him and took him away, as I held his hand, I feared.

I am going to venture something almost radical: The revelation you speak of was given to His church... so that simple souls should be to him and see him as he is.

Why do I say this? What is given to me to see has often its source in revelations given to saints who walk now and times ago. I built on them, on what they built through revelation as a painter builts on those who have painted before him or her. I am not an island. God's revelation to them are my revelations for being to everlasting life.

I do not need broken bones to remind me of the world, and as prerequisite to meeting the men and women of my days as a lively christian--although like many others I have suffered these and the likely hood of these. My prerequisite is not body pain, my prerequisite is a broken heart that I share will all mankind that desperately calls out for justice. This is perhaps my revelation and the only godly reason that Paul and I are not armchair prophets.

Whereas Paul preached on the Kingdom, I pray on a small part of it--the part we call Justice. And like many we share in this Paul and I, we pray.


----------



## Israel (Dec 21, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Why is it that I know that I know my Father more than I ever knew my father? My Father's breath moves me like a feather in the wind and I fear not where He guides me; and my father moved and guided me with his hand and when life left him and took him away, as I held his hand, I feared.
> 
> I am going to venture something almost radical: The revelation you speak of was given to His church... so that simple souls should be to him and see him as he is.
> 
> ...



Gordon, I can't see anything but the beauty of your words.
I probably just misunderstood your first post.
I mistook you to wonder if "today" we are can be closer to the "face of God" because of the history of the saints we may build upon.
But...perhaps "today" is always the only day that has ever been.


----------



## StriperAddict (Dec 21, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Why is it that I know that I know my Father more than I ever knew my father?



In that "greater is He that is IN you, than he that is in the world"; your Spirit which is now alive by the Fathers work must trump (yet not diminish) the work/experience of your earthly father. I hope & trust you had great support by flesh and blood growing up. Not all have, and it hurts to hear of the loss of family. But maybe it's me now who's getting off base.  

As to justice, hmm. A scary word if we are left to our own (fleshly) devices while in the hands of the living God.  But by His love, grace does much more abound.  God is just, and the justifier of the one who has faith in Christ.  Earthly justice?  Interesting... do I err in defending my home/ my country?  Perhaps this is for another discussion.


----------



## StriperAddict (Dec 21, 2011)

Thanks for the post and responses, brothers. I look forward to taking this up tomorrow.

Pardon me also, if by my misunderstanding I'm missing what's really on your heart, Gordon.


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 21, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> Thanks for the post and responses, brothers. I look forward to taking this up tomorrow.
> 
> Pardon me also, if by my misunderstanding I'm missing what's really on your heart, Gordon.



I think that perhaps what I'm driving at is that in order for the deciplines of christians, of christianity, to have effect they must have effect within a Kingdom that is available in the here and now. And that Kingdom must be available to as many christians as possible. The deciplines of this Kingdom cannot be simply the attributes collected by a saint as he or she sheds inperfections. If justice and understanding injustice and remedy to injustice must take place Justice must be understood as an important and complex feature of the Kingdom or to the greater life of christians. It cannot be simply individual and communal good will. It must be undertood as a part of grace perhaps.

Now to Paul the second coming was the imminent return of Jesus Saviour and perhaps many today echo Paul in their bromides "Jesus come". But has not history, christian history, pointed that the Kingdom, the spiritual communion of christians as all sorts of peoples is here and now and has been in fact, perhaps just a squeleton, for quite sometime.

All to often for our views of personal salvation, we are our judge, our jury, our own procecutor, our own defence and dispair that justice is a pie in the sky. But the dealing of justice and injustice are not the commerce of one party, does not matter how saved that party is.


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 21, 2011)

Israel said:


> Gordon, I can't see anything but the beauty of your words.
> I probably just misunderstood your first post.
> I mistook you to wonder if "today" we are can be closer to the "face of God" because of the history of the saints we may build upon.
> But...perhaps "today" is always the only day that has ever been.



You understood well the first time. This is what I said. The views of Paul conserning the second coming and the Kingdom to come were tinted by his natural closeness to Jewish messianic ideas.

Like what the Hebrews' Promised Land would become was a hope to Moses, so to Paul  was the Kingdom and the Second Coming.


----------



## mtnwoman (Dec 22, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> The views of Paul conserning the second coming and the Kingdom to come were tinted by his natural closeness to Jewish messianic ideas.
> 
> Like what the Hebrews' Promised Land would become was a hope to Moses, so to Paul  was the Kingdom and the Second Coming.



Yes!!


----------



## Dr. Strangelove (Dec 22, 2011)

> For now we see through a glass, darkly;



I've heard of your reputation from others



> but then face to face: now I know in part;



Now that I have known you, I see where your reputation comes from



> but then shall I know even as also I am known.



Now that I know you I will see if your actions live up to your words, as my own actions are my reputation


----------



## Israel (Dec 22, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> You understood well the first time. This is what I said. The views of Paul conserning the second coming and the Kingdom to come were tinted by his natural closeness to Jewish messianic ideas.
> 
> Like what the Hebrews' Promised Land would become was a hope to Moses, so to Paul  was the Kingdom and the Second Coming.




Actually, I had no idea that's at what you were hinting...

The question becomes is his revelation absolutely pure?
Is Paul deceived into thinking he was one called to deliver the whole counsel of God?
Or did he hear and write clearly?
If so,  at what point do we then discern this taint of jewish messianism, opposed to what...the "real unvarnished truth"?

Even if we throw Paul out...we still have the "red letters" of the gospels.
Are these the only truly trustworthy words? Don't I also have to trust the basically jewish writers (in some sense...but my trust is in the Lord...not in the sufficiency of the writers) to have also been led properly to make sure they were recorded according to the spirit's will?
Even one of those writers said there were many things _not recorded._..for if all was written...even the world could not contain the books.

I do not seek to elevate Paul (if I do so unwittingly, God knows), but I am equally cautious about accusing him of any bias, at least as I might discern it in what has been preserved of his writing.
Would Paul be the first to agree that Christ alone is all, he is nothing? I believe.
Would he be the first to agree, I have not known all things? 
Yes.
Is he also the one who, having seen much...obeyed the spirit's censure? I believe.

And having come to that place...was he also one then counted worthy to caution about not going beyond what is written? Again, I also believe.

Did Paul come to understand the "pitfall" of common or any messianism whether jewish ...or otherwise?
Yes, the self. 
The self for which the cross is fashioned.
The self that says "I belong to a special club...therefore that makes me _special to myself._"

I believe Paul when he said he endeavored to know nothing amongst them except Christ, and him crucified.
Whether he attained to all the fullness of all the knowledge of that...in every place at every time...God knows.
Did he know he was called to it?
Yes.
Did he leave us a testimony? Yes.
Are we to trust it?
God knows.
But, if I am inclined to believe God is calling me past Paul, which I surely do believe...but start out by imputing to him something of a taint in his vision...which, if recognized, becomes the very thing by which I now consider I may outstrip him because "I" see with less bias...I ain't going there...or that way.

I am learning about the Heisenberg uncertainty principle regarding spiritual discernment, understanding, and measurements.

And much of my research in this area I do owe to God's work through Christ in Paul, and his writing...but more...his life.
The only way any matter is rightly discerned is by a complete and utter nullification of the "measuring device"...for even observation of anything may influence how it "is".

Therefore I see a man who learned to endeavor to know nothing amongst the brethren except Christ, and him crucified.
And I see he is a worthy example.
A man, yes...surely.
But I see no taint.

Now, I must add this.
Could you, Gordon of the Canadians, be called to know Christ in a deeper way than even Paul's testimony would have us believe he knew him?
I cannot, and will not opposes that.
Likewise, do I find any fault in you...for believing that, if even so...you do believe that? 
No, not on it's face.
But...if you are prepared to say the smoky glasses Paul was seeking to be rid of was a taint of jewish messianism that plagued his vision, then we may have a place to discuss..."From whence cometh this persuasion?"
And we will discover, if we are called of God, truly seeking his kingdom, and submitted to the spirit of Christ...whether this notion be born from above...or somewhere else.


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 22, 2011)

Israel said:


> Actually, I had no idea that's at what you were hinting...
> 
> The question becomes is his revelation absolutely pure?
> Is Paul deceived into thinking he was one called to deliver the whole counsel of God?
> ...



Very good point, "From whence cometh the persuasion?" Thanks bros. I shall study on it, more than a few passing days, Paul's views on the Kingdom and the red letters of it in the Gospels. 

Peace bros.


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 22, 2011)

Dr. Strangelove said:


> I've heard of your reputation from others
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for this. It makes me stop and think...a whole lot.


----------



## StriperAddict (Dec 22, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Very good point, "From whence cometh the persuasion?" Thanks bros. I shall study on it, more than a few passing days, Paul's views on the Kingdom and the red letters of it in the Gospels.
> 
> Peace bros.


 
I don't mean to over simplify your quest, but keep trust alive in the Holy Spirit of truth during your study. He is the greatest teacher of all. 

Ask, and it shall be given; 
let him ask in faith, believing; 

Finally,
Faith is the substance (essence) of things hoped for...  it's the very real evidence of what the Spirit of truth delights to show us, (things unseen). (Heb 11:1 paraphrase)
Can we know something of that glory now? I've no doubt.  

Gordon, your words speak of such "revelational" longing. Christ promises that this hunger and thirst will be satisfied. Press on.


----------



## formula1 (Dec 22, 2011)

*Re:*

This is a most wonderful subject and I thank you Gordon for bringing it in the light.  I have been blessed already from so many comments!

The day of seeing dimly is still here in me, though I believe I see better than I once did.  Yet I am not so presumptuous to accept that I in the Spirit, which is where Life resides and Living Water quenches all thirst, have matured to fully Walk by the Spirit though the ability to do so has already been granted.  It is this you see in my words, recognizing much flesh is still clouding my view of the Father. It is all about Him who overcomes and He will overcome that which stands in the way...'me'!

I do recognize Grace for what it is, that is Extreme Unmerited Favor, and this Grace will assure my Father will get me to a clear picture of Him and His unmeasurable riches. And as someone has already said... I press on... because He has called me upward...and because I must... for there is no other with Life eternal for the asking... and He's already there and waiting for me with unmeasurable riches!  

May His riches overwhelm you!

John 6
60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” 66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. 67 So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”

Phillipians 3
12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 22, 2011)

formula1 said:


> This is a most wonderful subject and I thank you Gordon for bringing it in the light.  I have been blessed already from so many comments!
> 
> The day of seeing dimly is still here in me, though I believe I see better than I once did.  Yet I am not so presumptuous to accept that I in the Spirit, which is where Life resides and Living Water quenches all thirst, have matured to fully Walk by the Spirit though the ability to do so has already been granted.  It is this you see in my words, recognizing much flesh is still clouding my view of the Father. It is all about Him who overcomes and He will overcome that which stands in the way...'me'!
> 
> ...



And let us press on, past those that mentored us first in faith and then in Christ so that the prayers of all manner of man, who will ask for even our simple prayers that we will go beyond even this. More mature now, we will within the body of Christ, know to answer them.

I hear the sounds of people all over the world asking for justice. Man knows instinctively that justice is the store of his needs. I firmly believe that Christ and His Kingdom made lively by the Spirit, has more of an answer than we as christians are sharing with the people who are prayed upon and dispair for injustice. We are infact unjust for denying this water to the poor.

Thanks bros.  and peace to you and yours.


----------



## Israel (Dec 22, 2011)

Comfort ye, comfort ye my people...


----------



## mtnwoman (Dec 22, 2011)

Wow!! y'all are awesome, everyone with their beautiful writings, most of which is too deep for me to comprehend with just one reading.Thank you!


----------



## StriperAddict (Dec 22, 2011)

When brother Gordon speaks,




even EF Hutton listens


----------



## hummerpoo (Dec 22, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Yes I agree the analogy is raw, it is blending lemons and oranges, however I'm hoping for a both sweet and sower result. LOL
> 
> Now you are more than correct that the narrowing is love and no less than the great love Paul himself preached and wrote about. So my point in this light remains that if we have 2000 yrs of Ronnie T's preaching on the love that all saints know, than should our relationship with God not be clearer today than long ago.
> 
> ...



I think Yes to each, certainly not No to any.  But for me it's as though a 100 yard field goal attempt is being made shorter by a fresh coat on paint on the goal posts.


----------



## Ronnie T (Dec 22, 2011)

The OP asked:  "In my clumsy sort of way, I'm wondering...just because Paul saw darkly say about the coming Kingdom for example, does it follow that christians today are no closer to the face of God than he was?"

Gordy is one of those brother's on this forum that sometimes begins discussions that causes me to do the uncomfortable.... open myself up for myself and others to see.
I'm reminded of the sermon I witnessed years ago where the speaker begins undressing during his sermon.  And he continues to tell of what lies within each of us if we take off all this costume of righteousness.
I'm sure that I continue to look through smoked glass!  I believe we all do, but I'm not preparing to compare myself to any of you.

I remember the 'man after God's own heart' but remember how frail he was.  And the great leadship of Moses, but remember how wrong he was on many different fronts.  And Peter, who said "never me Lord", but he did, over and over again.

We're all so certain aren't we?  We all have a new revelation to share with the others.  I'm not so sure there's a man, or woman, alive today who understands what Paul understood.  Truely understands.    I obviously don't.  I don't see the repentance of Paul in myself.  I know that it could be in me.  Often, the clear glass I see through isn't glass at all.  It's a mirror.

One day it's all going to be revealed.  And then it won't matter so much.  I don't think we'll say "Oh yeah!".  I think we'll say  "wow".


----------



## Israel (Dec 22, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> The OP asked:  "In my clumsy sort of way, I'm wondering...just because Paul saw darkly say about the coming Kingdom for example, does it follow that christians today are no closer to the face of God than he was?"
> 
> Gordy is one of those brother's on this forum that sometimes begins discussions that causes me to do the uncomfortable.... open myself up for myself and others to see.
> I'm reminded of the sermon I witnessed years ago where the speaker begins undressing during his sermon.  And he continues to tell of what lies within each of us if we take off all this costume of righteousness.
> ...



I believe this as much as I believe anything...Lazarus needed others to help him out of his grave clothes. Unbind him!
We need each other brothers and sisters...whether we  be the one raised...or the one standing by.
We awake, and feel something still constraining/restraining us...the command of Jesus is precious to each...whether it be "Lazarus...come forth"
or...loose him.

Joh 11:43  And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, _Lazarus, come forth. _
Joh 11:44  And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, _Loose him, and let him go. _

The matter is not who we are at all...but who is speaking...

It matters not how late or early we get to the party...everything in the Lord's time...according to the Lord's own word.

Yes...we talk about Lazarus' corpse in its obedience to the command of Christ...and how wonderful it is to see him come forth.
But no less is the "patience of the saints" demonstrated by those who, are seemingly "just" standing by to know:

Joh 2:5  His mother saith unto the servants, _Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it. 


_


----------



## StriperAddict (Dec 22, 2011)

I saw something wonderful in the last two posts... (with thanks, brothers)

As a type of Lazarus, I have Christ the Lord to thank forever, for freeing me from death of the worst kind (spiritual).

I have many, _many _to thank in the body of Christ who, without judgement, have helped me be free of the "grave clothes", the "belief baggage" left over from the world & the flesh.  And as those 'ol clothes are peeled away, I can trust that a 'lil bit more of His pure light will come in.  

Isn't it incredible what happens to our hearts during honest, close encounters with our Lord and our brethren?

Death's end and the peeling off the rags...

I am blessed to tears on both fronts.


----------



## Ronnie T (Dec 22, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> I saw something wonderful in the last two posts... (with thanks, brothers)
> 
> As a type of Lazarus, I have Christ the Lord to thank forever, for freeing me from death of the worst kind (spiritual).
> 
> ...



Amen brother.
Peeling away the rags takes my mind off myself and centers it where it needs to be....  on my(our) Lord and Savior.
And God's grace and mercy takes center stage..... where it should be.


----------



## hummerpoo (Dec 23, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Often, the clear glass I see through isn't glass at all.  It's a mirror.
> 
> One day it's all going to be revealed.  And then it won't matter so much.  I don't think we'll say "Oh yeah!".  I think we'll say  "wow".



The majority of translators choose the word "mirror" over "glass".  Probably our making that distinction is more difficult than theirs.  The discernment of Spirit and flesh are certainly easier to discuss than to practice.  Such endeavors must be beyond the facility of flesh... as is the shedding of the flesh.  Paul seems to have found it so in Romans 7.

Perhaps the best we can do is to remember our inability when dealing with our fellows.


----------



## Ronnie T (Dec 23, 2011)

hummerpoo said:


> The majority of translators choose the word "mirror" over "glass".  Probably our making that distinction is more difficult than theirs.  The discernment of Spirit and flesh are certainly easier to discuss than to practice.  Such endeavors must be beyond the facility of flesh... as is the shedding of the flesh.  Paul seems to have found it so in Romans 7.
> 
> Perhaps the best we can do is to remember our inability when dealing with our fellows.



Agree.
Concerning Paul's letter to the Romans; in chap 6 Paul makes it clear to me that I have been empowered by God to ably live my life just the way Paul lived his for Christ.
But I haven't.


----------



## mtnwoman (Dec 23, 2011)

Once again!! Awesome, fellas!!


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 23, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Agree.
> Concerning Paul's letter to the Romans; in chap 6 Paul makes it clear to me that I have been empowered by God to ably live my life just the way Paul lived his for Christ.
> But I haven't.



I don't what to be disagreeable here, so I'm hoping I'm not.....  But I don't think anyone can just live their lives like Paul lived his for Christ.

I think Ronnie T should live his life for Christ.  And so Gordon, and others.

We fear that the flesh is still a rag to shed, but from it much can be learned in the Spirit. 

If we study and discuss Justice from the perspective of the Flesh alone we are going to give up  on Justice as someone in the flesh who sees salvation from the prespective of the flesh.

But if we study Justice from the perspectice of the flesh  and the Spirit and in the light of the Spirit...then my friends we shall live in the "zone". Our batting averages are going to go up....efforts that will take a few minutes, a few weeks, a few months will undo what the world has built since the fall.

Lets look at the world and how it seeks justice and let's see the results and how the world when it seeks depespite  all good intentions--- injustices of every kind abound. The world creates the opposite it says it whats. This is the way of the world. Now in the Spirit, in the Light of Christ, lets look at justice in the world and in scripture, as experieced in the church, in the Kingdom a rule of the road,  and as Isaeah says it,  and indeed as God sees it....

I'm betting and I'm betting all of my life that in the Spirit Justice can be achieve to a finner degree than we have it now and all over the world--on all the earth.

In the world a man would ask another for water and most would bring it. In the Spirit people wail and cryout for justice and we don't bring it, and we would condemn the world and its water carriers?

Friends if we are to the Spirit, let us be brothers and sisters in a Kingdom where for Jesus our Saviour we are the bucket brigage of Justice...for all. We can do it...

How will justice change the world and the Kingdom of God?Perhaps by christians coming into the wall of the capitals as Paul once did and preaching, " All we know is Justice, through Jesus the Saviour of Christians and through God the father of all mankind." "And how nn the days past many peoples and nations were rubbed out, harmed, killed and deported for the evil deeds of their rules forcing all mankind to crave justice. The people will no longer suffer for the evils of their leaders. The leaders for transgressions will be forced to face justice and reperations according to the grace of all the peoples of the earth.....

The world needs a declaration of independence from injustice. Christians for grace and the Holy Spirit can patiently work in ernest to this most Holy goal, just as Paul walked the roads of Asia for his.


----------



## mtnwoman (Dec 23, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> I don't what to be disagreeable here, so I'm hoping I'm not.....  But I don't think anyone can just live their lives like Paul lived his for Christ.
> 
> I think Ronnie T should live his life for Christ.  And so Gordon, and others.
> 
> We fear that the flesh is still a rag to shed, but from it much can be learned in the Spirit.



I definately agree on that. We are all different we are not made from the same mold.

For example our pastors wife, maybe 40 yrs old, has always been in church, always been a good girl, always sang in a gospel group with her dad from childhood....I bet she couldn't raise the hair on your head like I can with my testimony. Not dissing her, she has her own, but she could never imagine in her wildest dreams where I've been. She can help kids sing, my testimony/witness/work is totally different.

It takes us all and Christ died for all of it, good or bad. We all have freedom from eternal dangnation.

Isn't there somewhere that Christ died on 7 points? I might be thinking about by His stripes we are healed, by His bruises He died for our iniquities, He bled on the inside for what's on the inside of us, is that it? Gees my pea brain is gone after this past week...lol.


----------



## Israel (Dec 24, 2011)

What will this man do?


What's that to you, you follow me.

Paul is an excellent example...as far as I see. And if there be one thing I believe I may learn from his testimony it would be Jesus is Lord.
And if...I were to ever come to a place where I may glimpse either some lack...or some fault in our brother, or some signal of what appears as incompleteness, (freely include "bias" here) I also learn this from Paul...none of you would know about it from me...but that's only if I am being true to Christ.
Do we want to learn something useful from Paul? 
Maybe two things...

Maybe what comparing ourselves amongst one another makes us.


And maybe this one, for those who "wonder" about certain things:

2Co 12:2  I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 
2Co 12:3  And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) 
2Co 12:4  How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 

It would do no good to tell a  5 year old child "you'll be driving that car, right there"...when in fact you mean "I plan on giving you that Jaguar XKE when you are 18..." Knowing that it might easily tempt him to go looking for the keys some morning before you awake with a pair of blocks taped to his feet to have his 5 year old legs reach the pedals.

Maybe I've already "uttered" too much.

God knows.


----------



## hummerpoo (Dec 24, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> I don't what to be disagreeable here, so I'm hoping I'm not.....  But I don't think anyone can just live their lives like Paul lived his for Christ.
> 
> I think Ronnie T should live his life for Christ.  And so Gordon, and others.
> 
> ...



What a wild eyed, crazy, idealistic idea!  Such a thing has seldom even been proposed, let alone attempted, in the history of man.  Some attempts have been met with fierce opposition from government, church, and social organizations, viewed as detremental to stability, roadblocks to social and economic progress, studied to death by the philosopher, and reduced to a footnote by the historian; most have just been ignored.

Keep it up Gordon, I think your on to something, especially the individual part you started out with.  One plants, another waters, God provides the increase.


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 24, 2011)

hummerpoo said:


> What a wild eyed, crazy, idealistic idea!  Such a thing has seldom even been proposed, let alone attempted, in the history of man.  Some attempts have been met with fierce opposition from government, church, and social organizations, viewed as detremental to stability, roadblocks to social and economic progress, studied to death by the philosopher, and reduced to a footnote by the historian; most have just been ignored.
> 
> Keep it up Gordon, I think your on to something, especially the individual part you started out with.  One plants, another waters, God provides the increase.



I firmly believe it is not my wild eyed cracy idea. And I know it is not. Just because no one has ever proposed a spiritual airoplane, don't mean that spiritual flight is impossible.

There is nothing crazier and more wild eyed than an army set to sacking a people, a society, women and children, economic infrastructure and social institutions for the sins of their leaders! Wether it is Rome (Ceaser) sacking Jeruselm, Alexander the Great sacking Pursia, The British sacking South Africa, or the USA sacking Iraq....What is the difference? It is just time, that is the only difference.


Read on Ashokan the great indian ( India) leader and see how conquest is unjust as an instrement of Justice and how justice in the way the Lord means it is indeed just. 

It's about time christians wake up....or someelse will become the elect in their place.... Lets get with the program....

The wild eyed crazy folk are not my brothers and sister in Christ, nor are you, and nor am I. The folk needing alot of grace, and lots of patience are the folk who innocently believe that revenge is indeed proper justice.

Jesus has come to turn the world and its justice on its ear. My Lord is the greatest bull baiter that ever was...except his jaw is stronger than an old alligator and gentler than a Roman's dawg. My kennel is full of the Lord, my heart is full of His reality.

 My dreams are not dreams. My hopes are not hopes. My days are filled by the Lord.

( I know cracy...or drunk...but gentleman...I am not drunk. I am to the steady and steadfast, the root of life.


----------



## hummerpoo (Dec 27, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> The wild eyed crazy folk are not my brothers and sister in Christ, nor are you, and nor am I. The folk needing alot of grace, and lots of patience are the folk who innocently believe that revenge is indeed proper justice.



Missed this post earlier.

AMEN Brother!

I only pulled this paragraph out because it speaks so directly from Jesus...and, if my eye is clear, to so many who proclaim Him.

Well said indeed.


----------



## Israel (Dec 28, 2011)

I am not sure innocent is as fitting as ignorant.
But I will only recommend a garment I am willing to wear myself.
Being found not guilty may not be the same as being found innocent.
You are all free men, and so I trust some will help me.
Is innocence something I can confer? Or, is it something the Lord alone speaks?

Mat_27:24  When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying,_ I am innocent_ of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 28, 2011)

Israel said:


> I am not sure innocent is as fitting as ignorant.
> But I will only recommend a garment I am willing to wear myself.
> Being found not guilty may not be the same as being found innocent.
> You are all free men, and so I trust some will help me.
> ...



Knowing the ways of justice from the histories of his kingdoms, ernestly trusting in the justice of a spiritual kingdom to come--a man is innocent of rendering even 10 eyes for one. Spiritual poverty may well make peoples ignorant, but it makes them who feel along in their blindness quite innocent in their walks. Hence the need for grace.

Blessed are the poor in spirit (  the ignorant and the innocent) for theirs is, in christianity-in their recieving the good news-, the kingdom of heaven.

Perhaps....


Those who come to their parents' arms for affection and nurturing, having just bruised the eyebows of their siblings...are they not as I walk up to Jesus ignorant yes, but judged innocent?

Perhaps....

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The case of Pilot claiming innocence is interesting. He was probably taking care of himself and his family first, as most of us do today, knowing full well he had limited influence in the ways of the world. I believed it is said he had a good retirement in Vienna, France. Hope his years there were of good wines and good memories.


----------



## Ronnie T (Dec 28, 2011)

Israel said:


> I am not sure innocent is as fitting as ignorant.
> But I will only recommend a garment I am willing to wear myself.
> Being found not guilty may not be the same as being found innocent.
> You are all free men, and so I trust some will help me.
> ...



Me too.
I might have already shared this!???
When I read Paul's letter to the Christians in Rome it's as though chap's 1 thru 5 prepare me for the foolish question of chap 6.  "Since I'm saved by grace, why should I be concerned about sinfulness within me?  I already got saved?"  "Yeaaaaaaaa"  "Bring on the sin".

One of the products of grace is new life.  For me, and to me, grace does not mean permissiveness to the foolish.  Rather, grace brings the power to rise above that permissiveness.
And therein lies the life of humility and thankfulness.


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 28, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Me too.
> I might have already shared this!???
> When I read Paul's letter to the Christians in Rome it's as though chap's 1 thru 5 prepare me for the foolish question of chap 6.  "Since I'm saved by grace, why should I be concerned about sinfulness within me?  I already got saved?"  "Yeaaaaaaaa"  "Bring on the sin".
> 
> ...



Yes...a new life. But, a new life into what? I think that for myself, or the way I see it now, is that many christians are  perhaps innocent for their beliefs in a new life of peace and justice  in a "kingdom to come".

We are still hung up on the apocalyptical kingdom of an end time or "christ return" by which we hope will soon put the evil ginie back in the bottle. 

On the other hand, if we are born anew to a Kingdom,  to a place, or are heirs to a new spiritual place, a new spiritual Kingdom-- for us at least-- then we indeed have a new life. We not only have new sprititual breath, but we have a place to train for a new kind of race and resources to access and assess and plan and work to achieve effective results in keeping with all that is for us good and just--in the here and now. Now this is new life perhaps?

If I am correct, I think innocent is a better term than ignorant--at least in this case or the case I refer to. Innocence is the walk, ignorance an attribute of the walker-- seeing yet through a glass darkly.

But then, having put grace to good use I perhaps judge the ignorant as knowing no guilt or shame and therefore as innocent. Even prized lambs well kept, will  fall on their sides needing their shepard or his dawgs to right them


----------



## Israel (Dec 28, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Yes!!


Do you mean his understanding was tainted? 
Though his writings were true? 
As though he didn't fully comprehend even the things given to him as revelations?
Or do we see the "taint" in the words themselves?
For I have nothing except the words, apart from God's spirit illuminating them.



But there are many things I might say about Paul. 

Not the least being I trust his sincerity to count all his previous being before Christ, and what even may have remained of it to his "own" advantage...as dung.

If I say too much, I will appear to extol him above measure. 

But, when I was Peter, the Lord woulda let me slide (dealt with me privately), even for correcting him in front of the brethren. But he knew a good dose of castor oil was necessary for me to "pass through the bowel" any the illusion I had of being above any of the brethren. But now, you all know my story.

Take finding any fault in Paul...at all...as an invitation.
He doesn't need us to add speculation to all the things he so easily confessed as his own shortcomings.
And, I am also convinced, neither does the Lord.


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 28, 2011)

Israel said:


> Do you mean his understanding was tainted?
> Though his writings were true?
> As though he didn't fully comprehend even the things given to him as revelations?
> Or do we see the "taint" in the words themselves?
> ...



Most folk can add the church to the blue above and that church has in its perspectives all creation, including humanity. Trinities seem important to christians for some reason(s) I am not full aware of. But look. Perhaps in my clumsy way, I defamed the integrity of my brother Paul. Perhaps Paul said what he meant, and knew what he meant, and after 2000 yrs of not even fetching up to the laces of his sandles--we (I) don't see that in his lifetime Christ returned for Paul and Christians--but He did, and Paul's vision, his revelation was never tainted. I can live with that...with great joy. But as time goes by saints must see clearer than other times, with some it being clear at the start and dimmed now and or others dimmed at the start and lighted up now. Who knows.... Let's eat. I'm hungry.


----------



## Israel (Dec 28, 2011)

bless you bro.
I think I hear you...

Perhaps we are moving "back to the future"...where even those deep things that Paul saw (and not him alone)...will be made light to us in a way he couldn't even begin to share with the brothers at that time?

It's true that we stand, to some extent, on the shoulders of others, who were made humble and given much to help us see. And perhaps even the full unveiling of what was seen through a glass darkly will be made to a generation of children of light who are finally able to be wiser than the children "of this age".

I, perhaps like you, but lacking your deeper sight, (perhaps you are eyes for me?) believe the Kingdom is not at a "later date"...but that the King rules and reigns...right now...and his Kingdom will never be more real, nor more powerful... nor is it diminished at all by what may be my myopia. 
Perhaps it is only for the sake of the dimsighted like myself that he graciously doesn't break through to scorch my eyes? Or is it that he's already broken as far through as he ever will...and the fault is precisely "my own eyes"?

I can easily say I must abandon "my own vision" to see what is, and always has been there. And I am just barely beginning to know that even the knowing of a thing...and the practice of it are far different. So...perhaps everyone is waiting for me? Perhaps patience is all perfectly aimed at me...waiting...till I, perhaps the last...walk in?

Bless whoever stands and holds that door open for me to stumble through.


----------



## mtnwoman (Dec 28, 2011)

I'd say 99% of what I read, hear, discuss, etc, regarding the Bible is not quite understood or maybe just not yet come to fruitition in my human 99% spiritual 1% understanding.

So y'all hold the door open while I stumble through too.

One day all will be revealed to us, but not now. 

I have noticed that the further along I think I am the behinder I really am.

I,m sorta like a dumb ol' mustard seed, I just stay rooted there and grow and grow in faith, while everything else blows right over my head.


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 28, 2011)

Israel said:


> bless you bro.
> I think I hear you...
> 
> Perhaps we are moving "back to the future"...where even those deep things that Paul saw (and not him alone)...will be made light to us in a way he couldn't even begin to share with the brothers at that time?
> ...



I think we have been on our stretchers for too long. I myself would like to get up and walk. I think Jesus always believed we could. Now in Christ walking is perhaps not walking, perhaps it is sitting at a common table and one says "Did you hear? The people of God are asking for Justice and surely he shall give it them." And yet, "But once more must He show by His example what He already knows we can do? and what Jesus and Paul already ministered to us? and that is to get up and walk in the Lord."

Now my brothers what is the Lord's scheme for us and the children to come? Is there one? I am convinced there are no new lands to move to. If we are to give the poor spiritual land and resources for the cause of justice...we have left only to move mountains and I think they are moving as we speak...such are the ways of our Lord.


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 28, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> I'd say 99% of what I read, hear, discuss, etc, regarding the Bible is not quite understood or maybe just not yet come to fruitition in my human 99% spiritual 1% understanding.
> 
> So y'all hold the door open while I stumble through too.
> 
> ...



My dear sister...my heart craves for your happiness.

Now all revelation is not being requested by anyone now as far as I know...so...we keep on reading and sharing in the words of our Lord and in this there are none further along the way or behinders...

Let's share this and you'll see what I mean...it does not matter but that we pray together.

John 5:6 "When Jesus saw him lying there, and knew that he had already been a long time in that condition, He said to him, " Do you wish to get well?"

7. The sick man answered Him, " Sir, I have no man to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up, but while I am coming, another steps down before me."

8. Jesus said to him, " Get up, pick up your pallet and walk".

In Christ no one is a behinder... We are here talking about being glued to our pallets and you my sister for being honestly not annoyed...you must be walking and your stretcher days being long ago..which makes you ahead of the game.

Love you Annie.


----------



## hummerpoo (Dec 28, 2011)

Israel said:


> I, perhaps like you, but lacking your deeper sight, (perhaps you are eyes for me?) believe the Kingdom is not at a "later date"...but that the King rules and reigns...right now...and his Kingdom will never be more real, nor more powerful... nor is it diminished at all by what may be my myopia.



Likewise, I see or feel or something (oh, that xxxx smoky glass … or mirror) the Kingdom as present, or right here right now.  So much so that I sometimes feel that what others speak of is a blind spot for me.

Thinking on it often brings to mind two words:
Immanent - within the limits of possible experience or understanding
Imminent – soon to happen
Transcendent – beyond possible experience or understanding

I know, that’s three.

It's a good thing I don't have to spell them (or count them) to think on them.


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 28, 2011)

hummerpoo said:


> Likewise, I see or feel or something (oh, that xxxx smoky glass … or mirror) the Kingdom as present, or right here right now.  So much so that I sometimes feel that what others speak of is a blind spot for me.
> 
> Thinking on it often brings to mind two words:
> Immanent - within the limits of possible experience or understanding
> ...



Now that is interesting indeed.


----------



## mtnwoman (Dec 28, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> In Christ no one is a behinder... We are here talking about being glued to our pallets and you my sister for being honestly not annoyed...you must be walking and your stretcher days being long ago..which makes you ahead of the game.
> 
> Love you Annie.



But I still have a limp my dear sweet brother!! We all will always have a thorn, but our Lord's grace will suffice for us....just like Paul.  Hallelujah!!


----------



## centerpin fan (Dec 28, 2011)

After fifty-seven posts, I still don't know what this thread is about.


----------



## mtnwoman (Dec 28, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> After fifty-seven posts, I still don't know what this thread is about.




Me either....lol...that's why I said I'm a mustard seed, planted firmly, but clueless...lol....maybe not clueless but quiet.

I thought earlier it was about what Paul taught, like he didn't have leftover OT...or he did? 
If I look at what timothy wrote, Paul's student, I shouldn't even be here as a woman...women should learn in silence....God is a respector of persons after all eh?...lol.

Maybe for those who are strict on the NT teachings, I shouldn't be here....maybe I'll do a poll and see if I should even be here. It might be up to Jesus, but then again it might be up to the pharisees still stuck in the OT...either way I'll be submissive, because that is my calling...eh?


----------



## Israel (Dec 29, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Me either....lol...that's why I said I'm a mustard seed, planted firmly, but clueless...lol....maybe not clueless but quiet.
> 
> _I thought earlier it was about what Paul taught, like he didn't have leftover OT...or he did? _
> If I look at what timothy wrote, Paul's student, I shouldn't even be here as a woman...women should learn in silence....God is a respector of persons after all eh?...lol.
> ...



That is a good question Annie.
I don't know that any man here is your own husband, so it's really not for any of us to presume anything regarding washing you with the water of the word...except your own head.
If I have been presumptuous in that, I ask your forgiveness...

I have one woman from whom I both learn and also confers upon me the honor to teach.
She teaches me, without a word, how I am to be submissive to my head.
I just tell her the things he shows me.

I am, by far, the more wordy of us. 

But, I am learning.


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 29, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> After fifty-seven posts, I still don't know what this thread is about.



It is about individual salvation versus the salvation of peoples.

I threw a dart at scripture and it landed on Paul's imminent return of Christ and the coming in of the Kingdom. That is where I started.

Paul it seems to me that for many christians  he concentrates on what we understand to be individual salvation. For many this means the purification of the self into the Godhead for a reward in a second coming or in a Kingdom to come. It is a gnostic idea in my view. Jesus' engagement with the world is intimate and in it and therefore ideas that the self must rid from itself  the world is perhaps a consequence of our understandings of what we are saved to or simply our salvation.

Since Paul seems to suggest that Christ's return is imminent and that many christian continue in this hope are we saved  as individuals to this hoped for return or are we saved as the peoples of God--christians, the community of christians, intimately engaged in the here and now?

If I am correct Paul's idea about the imminent return and the coming Kingdom are interesting in the light of the broader ministry of Jesus on the Kingdom and as the savior.


Imagine that the individual posts are held together sometimes by Duck Tape and it will all come together for you. From the original post an invitiation at rubbing some smoke off Paul's "through a glass darkly" has rubbed us this way and that way...that's all.

Now add to all of this the notion that the world and the body is sinful, Paul's call is to the cross and the redemtion from sins. But is the body sinful? Someone said it was merely weak. From a perspective of individual salvation alone and a Kingdom of Justice and Peace to come we are left weak in my view. Justice for us will always be pie in the sky if we continue to see in this light. But were the teaching of Jesus pie in the sky?

So if this is now less nebulous for you, perhaps  you can rub the smoke off your Paul's glass...and share. What do you see?


----------



## centerpin fan (Dec 29, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> ... are we saved  as individuals to this hoped for return or are we saved as the peoples of God--christians, the community of christians ...



To be in the community of Christians, you must first be a Christian.  That is an individual matter.  In Acts 2, three thousand individuals were added to the community of Christians.  

Yes, Christ died for all (or at least "the elect", depending on your theology), but Paul tells the Philippians to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."  The community can't repent of your sins.


----------



## Ronnie T (Dec 29, 2011)

What?

Self-realization.


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 29, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> To be in the community of Christians, you must first be a Christian.  That is an individual matter.  In Acts 2, three thousand individuals were added to the community of Christians.
> 
> Yes, Christ died for all (or at least "the elect", depending on your theology), but Paul tells the Philippians to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."  The community can't repent of your sins.



Yes this is exactly the view in vogue.... because it resonates from Paul's drum, but  "as a hen gathers her chicks" as individuals --I think not. This last lyric is perhaps from another great singer. Perhaps...???


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 29, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> What?
> 
> Self-realization.



Self-actualization. Maslow. And before it self-esteem.

The sceme is someting as this from basic to sublime:

1.Physiological need.
2.Safety and security.
3.Love and belonging.
4.Esteem.
5.Self Actualization.

I think all of India and a few other places... are working on this as we speak... and have been for the last 5000 yrs...


----------



## Ronnie T (Dec 29, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Self-actualization. Maslow. And before it self-esteem.



Okay Gordy!  For you.
But for me, the more I realize about 'me', the greater Jesus Christ becomes in my life.


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 29, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Okay Gordy!  For you.
> But for me, the more I realize about 'me', the greater Jesus Christ becomes in my life.



Interesting.


----------



## mtnwoman (Dec 29, 2011)

Israel said:


> That is a good question Annie.
> I don't know that any man here is your own husband, so it's really not for any of us to presume anything regarding washing you with the water of the word...except your own head.
> If I have been presumptuous in that, I ask your forgiveness...
> 
> ...



Jesus is my husband.


----------



## Israel (Dec 29, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Jesus is my husband.



Mine, too...ain't he wonderful?


----------



## mtnwoman (Dec 29, 2011)

Israel said:


> Mine, too...ain't he wonderful?



Yes, He is!!
My one true love!


----------



## hummerpoo (Dec 29, 2011)

This morning before leaving for work I said to my wife, "I'll have to wait a while before directly approaching to question of salvation of people vs. salvation of peoples"

So much for my insight, huh?

I just realized that my above comment would likely be percieved as sarcasm.  That was not my intent.  I have been eager to hear corporate salvation discussed, but thought more preliminary issues would be required.


----------



## mtnwoman (Dec 29, 2011)

hummerpoo said:


> This morning before leaving for work I said to my wife, "I'll have to wait a while before directly approaching to question of salvation of people vs. salvation of peoples"
> 
> So much for my insight, huh?



Right there witcha!!


----------



## thedeacon (Dec 29, 2011)

Israel said:


> That is a good question Annie.
> I don't know that any man here is your own husband, so it's really not for any of us to presume anything regarding washing you with the water of the word...except your own head.
> If I have been presumptuous in that, I ask your forgiveness...
> 
> ...



Preach and Teach the Gospel
and if You Must
USE WORDS


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 30, 2011)

thedeacon said:


> Preach and Teach the Gospel
> and if You Must
> USE WORDS



Now that is funny and beautiful to me.

Mountains do not see hills sufficient to setting examples, but they do hear, their minds set to even faint and odd echos in the clear.


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 30, 2011)

hummerpoo said:


> This morning before leaving for work I said to my wife, "I'll have to wait a while before directly approaching to question of salvation of people vs. salvation of peoples"
> 
> So much for my insight, huh?
> 
> I just realized that my above comment would likely be percieved as sarcasm.  That was not my intent.  I have been eager to hear corporate salvation discussed, but thought more preliminary issues would be required.




More simply, are we saved as individuals so that we can go out in confidence to take care of ourselves and our families amist the clamour of injustices, accepting our  tripolar reality of self, sin and the unchanging world. Are we not simply predators for doing this, for even wild dogs do this?Maggots?

But if we are to the peoples of God, and saved into one of those peoples, are we not servants? Servants do they serve themselves? Samaritians do they care for samaritians alone, indifferent to injustices along the road?

Perhaps?


----------



## StriperAddict (Dec 30, 2011)

Gordon, if God has burdened your heart to storm the gates of injustice in the world, I pray you'd do it with the power/love He supplies.

=====

Now I might have more to say on freedom in the same One who loves us beyond what we can do, or love in return.  His, Christs, is a freedom that sets the course of our hearts aright in response of the gospel of 'doing', I'm just afraid in light of some texts that such thoughts would be in too much contrast.

So I'll end with this, 
You'll never truly know your ships course ahead until, like John, your head lays upon your ship's Master.  And that, for many many seasons and through many waters.


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 30, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> Gordon, if God has burdened your heart to storm the gates of injustice in the world, I pray you'd do it with the power/love He supplies.
> 
> =====
> 
> ...



And so it is, ended.


----------



## Israel (Dec 30, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> Gordon, if God has burdened your heart to storm the gates of injustice in the world, I pray you'd do it with the power/love He supplies.
> 
> =====
> 
> ...


yes.

I, perhaps like Gordon, have puzzled many years over a seeming disarray in the "body". What appeared as an army out of step, but one which, I imagined, if were in step, would be most powerful.

What I say now is_ my own experience_...and cannot be likened against what I either would recommend as an outcome for anyone, or to anyone...but if some (or none) believe this testimony, so it is what it is to them, true or false.
I undertook in many ways, and many attempts (so clearly seen now as _my own trying_) to bring something about that would match what I believed was the heavenly vision.
But I have been, through many corrections, rebukes, and reproofs brought _*back*_ to a place I thought I'd started from, but truly had never apprehended. Simply: Jesus is Lord.

My starting point is always my ending point. 
I had simply transferred my very carnal appreciation of things being "out of joint" now to what I saw as, and vainly considered, a spiritual compulsion. 

I had not yet understood the significance of those simple words that launched my vessel were to remain my constant touchstone. Jesus having "all authority in heaven and earth" was wrongly misconstrued as instructions to mean "now you go and make everything right" (with my own personal addendum to which I remained blind, "of all the things you think remain wrong") 

I didn't know I was carrying my carnal sight that couldn't help but see things as "wrong" and therefore, provoked my own carnality to set things right. And so I strove...if not ceaselessly, often fruitlessly...and knowing many frustrations. Often thinking that...(and even finding justifications for) my own dryness were a proof of my walking the narrow way. Oh, what a fool of fools! 

Preaching a perfect work...but really, in practice, believing things were never as perfect as professed.

The Lord, in his patience (I believe) showed me how I needed to be convinced truly of the reality I saw so very very dimly in my heart. To this end I believe he is working...indeed, has always been working. 

Every rebuke and reproof is now precious...every dry well, every bitter frustration was not only fitting...but necessary...and I say this with all gravity...FOR ME.
Some souls...perhaps either less damaged, less pigheaded, less so enamored of themselves...have gone a better, or easier, or gentler, or smoother way.
Some sons of thunder have learned more easily...or had more faith...or just been more sincere.

But again, with all gravity I say, I have not yet apprehended.

Now, the caution to my heart is far more frequently administered by the Holy Spirit in this..."Are you in the place where you see things wrong...and are trying to "fix" them...or are you abiding in the place where all is peace, and all things under Jesus feet, and seeking to stay there and simply share what you see?"

The difference seems subtle to some perhaps, but for me now it is all the difference there is. If there is something wrong, and I set out to "fix" it...there's the place where my pride is always uncovered as the motive.
But if I simply testify to what I see, I can take no more pride in that than I could for telling someone "It's hot in Savannah in July." 

The former leaves place for my "doing", the latter of course, nothing except a simple confession from a stimulus of a sense I have been given, (to either see...feel, taste...). I have not given myself these senses...anymore than I can now take any credit for what may be spiritual sight. Or hearing. 

In this I begin to understand (I believe) why Jesus said I only do what I see the Father doing. I only speak what I hear. Jesus confessed his words were not his own...and so, I now learn in Jesus the relief from "trying"...to learn to simply pay attention. 

How much of my time was spent in striving to "come up with something good"...instead of understanding I have been, along with every other brother and sister, been granted the honor of seeing who and what has always been at work. And to both behold and abide. And "that" everything is perfect.

In this gift I am just beginning to see how great a mercy and patience has been given. Even to one such as me.

Are there words to speak? Are there "things" to do? Far more than I had ever imagined, experienced, imagined, or known.
And I also begin to see the rest promised of ceasing from my own labors. And my own words.
And I see a man who said this, easily mistaken as a man (at least by me...and perhaps even others..."Are you able to drink the cup I drink") who went about of his own will and his own power just doing great and marvelous things. I begin to the the man who never lies, who is the truth...saying this:

Joh 5:30  _*I can of mine own self do nothing*_: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. 

I can easily see why I find this man so easy for me, _now_, to appreciate.

I also now know a man who knows he can of himself "do nothing". I am in his skin. 

And now I thank God with every reminder of my own insufficiency in all things...to see and appreciate how when I am weak...he is strong.

And I am no longer ashamed of being a man who can do nothing of himself. I didn't know that's what forgiveness did...to get that man to stop trying to do what he "thought" was the right thing, and to continually discover he was always found with a mallet and nails in his own clenched fist, hammering against a stone who will not be moved.


----------



## hummerpoo (Dec 30, 2011)

Ah, I think I see.



gordon 2 said:


> More simply, are we saved as individuals so that we can go out in confidence to take care of ourselves and our families amist the clamour of injustices, accepting our  tripolar reality of self, sin and the unchanging world. Are we not simply predators for doing this, for even wild dogs do this?Maggots?
> 
> You are of course correct, that is indeed what some untold number think, it is easiest to lay that at the feet of the teacher, but I have witnessed much resistance by the teachee … God didn’t give me teeth for meat.  Effectively; I am very comfortable, I find myself in a well protected corner.  Don’t steal; I don’t steal.  But if guided ever so gently to Eph. 4-28 and the idea that theft is forbidden because it makes the gift unacceptable for the purposes of the supra-receiver; I don’t steal.  The source of your gift is? I worked for it.
> 
> ...



Servants, yes.  Desiring better understanding of the divisions, is not our people group those to whom He sends us, or those whom He sends to us?  What does your vision see?


----------



## hummerpoo (Dec 30, 2011)

Israel,
I have glimpsed that image, but never in clear focus; details, details, where are the details.


----------



## Ronnie T (Dec 30, 2011)

Israel said:


> yes.
> 
> I, perhaps like Gordon, have puzzled many years over a seeming disarray in the "body". What appeared as an army out of step, but one which, I imagined, if were in step, would be most powerful.
> 
> ...




Me neither.
If I could hear God with my very human ears I suspect I'd often hear Him say:  

"Hey, don't get gloomy Ron.  You're on a journey, you're doing fine.  You might not be perfect, but Ron, I love you for it.  Stay with me!  Stay with me!"


----------



## Ronnie T (Dec 31, 2011)

Israel said:


> " I love you for it...", yeah, I think I get that.
> You have chosen to abide in a place of seeming contradiction and conflict, where admission of fault is found perfect, admission of weakness is strength, willingness to appear a fool is wise, and willingness to surrender is counted a victory.
> There is no place there for the carnal man, and so...(it appears to me) Jesus is grateful for those who stay with him...because they must accept their own deaths...to find life.
> Jesus is easy to be with...but, simply impossible for the carnal man.
> ...



God bless you Israel.  You described it perfectly.


----------



## StriperAddict (Jan 3, 2012)

*thanks*

Brother Israel, I often have not enough time and terrible typing skills to say what's on my heart to my satisfaction, but I'm thankful for what you shared in your last post (and also the one Ronnie just quoted from you also) on the subject of abiding in Christ.  These words spoke volumes to me, and I appreciate their challenge and comfort.

Gordon, if my shot "from the hip" was much to quick/direct approach to your inquiries, please forgive me. The faith that you have, you have as your conviction before God (Romans 14:22), and I wouldn't ever want to put a stumbling block/"law" in your way to trip you up.  Zeal can be a good thing for one's _own_ convictions in the Lord, but I often get off track in it when sharing mine.  In cheering on the ones running the race, God please give me the grace and wisdom that I have seen with many who post here, who with all humility share light because of the love of Christ.

Peace.


----------



## formula1 (Jan 3, 2012)

*Re:*

In light of the rich thoughts in this post, I felt it timely to share this scripture:

Psalm 65
9 You visit the earth and water it;you greatly enrich it; 
the river of God is full of water; you provide their grain, 
for so you have prepared it. 
10 You water its furrows abundantly, settling its ridges, 
softening it with showers, and blessing its growth. 


It's You Lord.  It's You!


----------



## marketgunner (Jan 3, 2012)

*correct word*



hummerpoo said:


> The majority of translators choose the word "mirror" over "glass".  Probably our making that distinction is more difficult than theirs.  The discernment of Spirit and flesh are certainly easier to discuss than to practice.  Such endeavors must be beyond the facility of flesh... as is the shedding of the flesh.  Paul seems to have found it so in Romans 7.
> 
> Perhaps the best we can do is to remember our inability when dealing with our fellows.



The correct wording is neither glass or mirror but enigma as complicated puzzle. 
The position claimed throughout this postings is I'm OK and I desire for fuller knowledge to be made known to me so I can be closer to GOD. The real enigma is who and what we are through sin and God has not more to reveal to us but we are able to accept who we are and how great His love has been for us all along. Gnostics desire the revealing of Hidden Knowledge" Be careful.


----------



## Israel (Jan 4, 2012)

marketgunner said:


> The correct wording is neither glass or mirror but enigma as complicated puzzle.
> The position claimed throughout this postings is I'm OK and I desire for fuller knowledge to be made known to me so I can be closer to GOD. The real enigma is who and what we are through sin and God has not more to reveal to us but we are able to accept who we are and how great His love has been for us all along. Gnostics desire the revealing of Hidden Knowledge" Be careful.



I cannot disagree that sin has so marred the image and likeness of God as to be completely unrecognizable.
Yet...in each believer is the conviction that God is in that man Jesus. 
We must therefore see (or not) that there is something at work greater than the blindness of sin for anyone to see that. God's mercy in healing blindness has outstripped sin's ability to blind us. But our hope can never be in our own seeing, but always in the object of that sight, Jesus the Lord.

I begin to understand why Paul said we do not preach ourselves, but Christ as Lord.
2Co_4:5  For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 

Knowing this, that there will always be an inclination (through the weakness of the flesh) to take what is given as "our own glory". 

For this we may learn the truth of God's rebuke and chastening for those he loves.
Yes, it is an enigma that God could love me...especially when I see how devious sin has made me, how easily I covet and grasp at his glory. And even how, as I may seem to progress, that working becomes even more subtle. 

Yet there is one who abides faithful in my sight.
But that faithfulness, as even that sight, is not of "my own".
I have nothing I have not received. Nor has the word of God originated nor come to me alone.



"Of these stones God is able to raise up sons of Abraham."
I am no more than clay caused to cry out by the power of God.

Luk 19:40  And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out. 

Yes, sin has caused men to be, of all creation...the "last to get it". And of all men, I may be indeed the densest.

Jesus is Lord.


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 5, 2012)

Seeing the Good News in the light of its author, there has never been a light coming from me. But He shinned his light on the world and for His light I saw and see--and in that light I rarely if ever see me. I see the world lighted up in grace and justice and this that His light thought me and I see a world that I was to, but will never again be "me".

Christ is the light of the world from the beggining. I have been lighted to that begginning like many and having been to that mountain and seen His visions like many. What I see is not from my light, like many my light is not His own.

Ever calling that light seals me to His grave. I am not, nor ever will be what was left there.  Thought my will which is not my will may seem a compost heap to many or pretty words for warm and delightful days, or words undignified and uncharitable...my words and deeds always come from the breath that gave light to the Good News and for it gave its light into the world. For all of this I am not an Island, my will never stands alone.

And in that light, it is now the end, now the Lord will speak to you and me in another way.

Peace bros and sisters.

While many will study the world on one hand and scripture in the other with an eye to varify prophecy for themselves and on themselves, there is no greater witness to prophecy than in the practice of doing the teachings in the Good News. There all that was ever said, prayed for and prophecied is revealed in its fullness.


----------



## Ronnie T (Jan 5, 2012)

gordon 2 said:


> Seeing the Good News in the light of its author, there has never been a light coming from me. But He shinned his light on the world and for His light I saw and see--and in that light I rarely if ever see me. I see the world lighted up in grace and justice and this that His light thought me and I see a world that I was to, but will never again be "me".
> 
> Christ is the light of the world from the beggining. I have been lighted to that begginning like many and having been to that mountain and seen His visions like many. What I see is not from my light, like many my light is not His own.
> 
> ...



Amen.


----------



## marketgunner (Jan 5, 2012)

Frankly, I don't understand half of these post.  Let approach the question concerning the "glass darkly " in this manner.  Why would God present His word to me if it is not knowable? (There is a big word for the doctrine that the Word of God is knowable . Maybe some of the scholars here can provide it)


----------



## centerpin fan (Jan 5, 2012)

marketgunner said:


> Frankly, I don't understand half of these post.



I gave up a long time ago.  I tip my hat to the hardy souls who have persevered.


----------



## StriperAddict (Jan 6, 2012)

marketgunner said:


> Why would God present His word to me if it is not knowable? (There is a big word for the doctrine that the Word of God is knowable . Maybe some of the scholars here can provide it)


 
Two verses come to mind for starts...
*John 8:32*
and ye _shall_ *know* the truth, and the truth shall set you free.

*John 8:28*
Jesus therefore said to them, _When ye shall have lifted up the Son of man, then ye shall *know*_ that I am [He], and [that] I do nothing of myself, but as the Father has taught me I speak these things.

When Christ is sought, exalted, surrendered to as Lord/Master, the Spirit comes to that broken vessel and truth begins to take shape and unfold. Looking at spiritual things without relying on that same Spirit or "teacher" may not yield the choicest results. It is a "seeking" after the Lord that has best ties to what will be shown up in light.  Our part will be then for the knowledge, or light shown to do it's work in us.


----------



## Israel (Jan 6, 2012)

Knowing Jesus is something for which we become thankful we have been given eternity. We start on eternal life the moment our hearts are set to know him.
If we don't yet see that, we can begin anytime.


----------



## marketgunner (Jan 6, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> Two verses come to mind for starts...
> *John 8:32*
> and ye _shall_ *know* the truth, and the truth shall set you free.
> 
> ...



  Paul is talking about maturity, not Salvation as Jesus is in John.

Upon Salvation or Spiritual birth " ALL scripture is  GIVEN... Profitable for doctrine...for reproof... instruction...
 That the man of God may be throughly (completely) furnished.

The Holy Spirit will show us what the Scripture has to unfold to us. ANY limits are on our side and that portion of scripture when an angel told John not to write certain things seem in Heaven.


----------



## StriperAddict (Jan 6, 2012)

marketgunner said:


> Paul is talking about maturity, not Salvation as Jesus is in John.
> 
> Upon Salvation or Spiritual birth " ALL scripture is GIVEN... Profitable for doctrine...for reproof... instruction...
> That the man of God may be throughly (completely) furnished.
> ...


 
Some things are "withheld" from heaven for our benifit. Think of a commander with strategic plans for warefare. Some he will share with his company, some he may not.  And often those same plans are kept from the population, that the enemy may not have the upper hand. 
Guess I'm well content with what the Lord reveals and equally thankful for what He does not.  
On a more inspirational note, eye has NOT seen all the wonders of His beauty that await us in glory. That's something to keep watch over by faith.


----------



## marketgunner (Jan 6, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> Some things are "withheld" from heaven for our benifit. Think of a commander with strategic plans for warefare. Some he will share with his company, some he may not.  And often those same plans are kept from the population, that the enemy may not have the upper hand.
> Guess I'm well content with what the Lord reveals and equally thankful for what He does not.
> On a more inspirational note, eye has NOT seen all the wonders of His beauty that await us in glory. That's something to keep watch over by faith.



I understand 

And all knowledge is not available to us , but the purpose of scripture is to reveal what we should know in total. I too am content to wait on the rest but I have an obligation and privilege to know what God has offered to me through scripture. It is available to me and I want to know it all as I want to know God


----------



## StriperAddict (Jan 6, 2012)

marketgunner said:


> I understand
> 
> And all knowledge is not available to us , but the purpose of scripture is to reveal what we should know in total. I too am content to wait on the rest but I have an obligation and privilege to know what God has offered to me through scripture. It is available to me and I want to know it all as I want to know God


 
It's the most incredible journey in the world.


----------



## formula1 (Jan 6, 2012)

*Re:*

I though this scripture was appropriate to recent comments about what God wants us to 'get' in terms of knowledge!  Hope you agree!

John 20
30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.


----------



## Ronnie T (Jan 6, 2012)

formula1 said:


> I though this scripture was appropriate to recent comments about what God wants us to 'get' in terms of knowledge!  Hope you agree!
> 
> John 20
> 30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.



It is very appropriate.
I've learned through the years that I have a tendency to search for answers that aren't available.  But I search anyway.  And if I'm not careful, I'll come up with an answer.
Note to myself:  "It's alright to say 'I don't know' ".  As a matter of fact, it's as appropriate as the above verse.


----------



## hummerpoo (Jan 7, 2012)

marketgunner said:


> The correct wording is neither glass or mirror but enigma as complicated puzzle.
> The position claimed throughout this postings is I'm OK and I desire for fuller knowledge to be made known to me so I can be closer to GOD. The real enigma is who and what we are through sin and God has not more to reveal to us but we are able to accept who we are and how great His love has been for us all along. Gnostics desire the revealing of Hidden Knowledge" Be careful.



Enigma describes how we see now (darkly/dimly), while the glass or mirror is the media through which we see, or is that which causes us to see darkly/dimly, or is that which is between us and the object seen.

My thoughts are often tedious, even to me, so I’m sure they of no interest to others.  I have yet to learn how to balance brevity and boring.  Both the relatively poor glass of Paul’s day and the polished metal mirrors used at that time provided an indistinct or distorted image. The intent of the previous post was to suggest that perhaps Paul had chosen a mirror for his figure to indicate that it is the fallen self which causes the greatest interference in spiritual perception, or the proper use of Spiritual gifts [the flesh opposes the spirit (Gal. 5:17 and others)].  As we attempt to see Jesus, and all that that entails, those images are detrimentally influenced by the image of self which is so ingrained into our whole being.  Greed, pride, lust, etc. are no part of the One who sees us clearly and Paul is suggesting that upon completion of the journey we will see Jesus clearly as well.

In closing his statement (ch. 13) exhorting the Body of Christ at Corinth to brotherly love [“the more excellent way” (12:31b)], this is his reminder that they are all encumbered by this same fallen nature in all their strivings.  Although they are to “earnestly desire the greater gifts”(12:31a)[wisdom, knowledge, faith, etc. (12:8-10)], they are to remember that those gifts are temporary (13: 8) but “love never fails”. 

Love the Lord thy God…
Love thy neighbor…

These are the Greatest Commandments.
These are the basis for the Law and the Prophets.
These are the proper use, or objective, of all Spiritual Gifts within the Body of Christ.


The efficacy of those gifts is dependent upon our recognition of our own falleness.
That recognition is necessary both by the one through whom the blessing is provided and the one who is recieving the blessing.


----------



## Israel (Jan 7, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> Enigma describes how we see now (darkly/dimly), while the glass or mirror is the media through which we see, or is that which causes us to see darkly/dimly, or is that which is between us and the object seen.
> 
> My thoughts are often tedious, even to me, so I’m sure they of no interest to others.  I have yet to learn how to balance brevity and boring.  Both the relatively poor glass of Paul’s day and the polished metal mirrors used at that time provided an indistinct or distorted image. The intent of the previous post was to suggest that perhaps Paul had chosen a mirror for his figure to indicate that it is the fallen self which causes the greatest interference in spiritual perception, or the proper use of Spiritual gifts [the flesh opposes the spirit (Gal. 5:17 and others)].  As we attempt to see Jesus, and all that that entails, those images are detrimentally influenced by the image of self which is so ingrained into our whole being.  Greed, pride, lust, etc. are no part of the One who sees us clearly and Paul is suggesting that upon completion of the journey we will see Jesus clearly as well.
> 
> ...



Amen.

"That recognition" you speak of through whom the blessing comes, is that not his mercy towards us knowing our frame?

And that recognition on "our end", so to speak, is it not having learned we can so easily exalt our own selves?

Oh, what a Savior! 

Oh, what a salvation.


----------



## hummerpoo (Jan 7, 2012)

Israel said:


> Amen.
> 
> "That recognition" you speak of through whom the blessing comes, is that not his mercy towards us knowing our frame?
> 
> ...



Yes indeed!

To Whom we owe all, and why we owe all.


----------



## mtnwoman (Jan 7, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> It is very appropriate.
> I've learned through the years that I have a tendency to search for answers that aren't available.  But I search anyway.  And if I'm not careful, I'll come up with an answer.
> Note to myself:  "It's alright to say 'I don't know' ".  As a matter of fact, it's as appropriate as the above verse.



Amen!!!

All I need to know or understand or accept or whatever is the gospel, I've got that nailed. The rest doesn't render me hopeless in salvation.


----------

