# Any former Christian's now Atheist?



## Artfuldodger (Jun 29, 2013)

On a couple of OSAS debates someone wanted a testimony of a former Christian who had lost his salvation. He really wanted one who had lost it and years later regained it.
Were any of y'all (Atheist) former Christians? Do you feel you were truly a  Christian or that you were never a Christian? Did any of y'all ever go between believing and not believing? Did you produce fruits?
And for the Christians, do y'all believe God will eventually call them (the Christian Atheists) back into his flock before they die? 
Why would God save someone only to take it away because they followed their flesh (minds).


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## ambush80 (Jun 29, 2013)

Every...EVERY atheist, that I know personally anyway, was a Christian.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 30, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Every...EVERY atheist, that I know personally anyway, was a Christian.



Every Christian begins life as an Atheist too.


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## groundhawg (Jun 30, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Every Christian begins life as an Atheist too.



How do you figure that?   

Per Webster's - atheist: 1) the belief that there is no God; 2) denial of the existence of a supreme being.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 30, 2013)

groundhawg said:


> How do you figure that?
> 
> Per Webster's - atheist: 1) the belief that there is no God; 2) denial of the existence of a supreme being.



At some point in their life they made a conscious decision to believe in God.  Prior to that they didn't.


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## bullethead (Jun 30, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> At some point in their life they made a conscious decision to believe in God.  Prior to that they didn't.



Not your best work SFD.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 30, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Not your best work SFD.



Yeah I know.  It's late on a Sunday.  Been in the garden for the last week and ain't been fishing in the river but once in the last month.  Need to get into the river and absorb some swamp water back into my bones to set me right again.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 30, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Every Christian begins life as an Atheist too.



Does every Christian nation begin life as a Christian nation? 
Was Israel once saved but now isn't? Have they lost the faith and have become like an Atheist nation? Have they turned their back on God? Once they were saved but now they are lost.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 1, 2013)

I was a christian as sure as any one here is. I didn't lose any salvation because there is no salvation to be had. If by fruits you mean did I help people see the light? I'd say so. I have a few friends who I was a role model to who are still christians and post stuff about it on facebook still. I was saved when I was 13 or so. Never been back and forth.


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## groundhawg (Jul 1, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Not your best work SFD.



Yep, he is streching it with that one.  Sorry was not trying to hi-jack the thread.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 1, 2013)

groundhawg said:


> Yep, he is streching it with that one.  Sorry was not trying to hi-jack the thread.



Alright, I'm feeling a bit contrary this morning.  What's wrong with my contention noted above.  No one is born believing in God.  Some are brought up in homes of believing parents and some are not.  In either instance, before anyone comes to a belief of God,  prior to that instant they did not believe in God, hence they were an Atheist.


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## swampstalker24 (Jul 1, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Alright, I'm feeling a bit contrary this morning.  What's wrong with my contention noted above.  No one is born believing in God.  Some are brought up in homes of believing parents and some are not.  In either instance, before anyone comes to a belief of God,  prior to that instant they did not believe in God, hence they were an Atheist.



So if a child has not found God, say 10 years old, and dies, he/she is condemed to eternal - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -, because based on your reasoning, they are atheist?


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## bullethead (Jul 1, 2013)

swampstalker24 said:


> So if a child has not found God, say 10 years old, and dies, he/she is condemed to eternal - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -, because based on your reasoning, they are atheist?



They are "innocent" and covered.
As are the jungle tribes, desert dwellers and everyone else that has never heard of God...they get a free pass.

I am certain the word "atheist" gets a lot of self made definitions that go along with it.


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## JB0704 (Jul 1, 2013)

bullethead said:


> They are "innocent" and covered.
> As are the jungle tribes, desert dwellers and everyone else that has never heard of God...they get a free pass.



There's a scripture which covers that topic, if your interested......but, via nature, everybody has "heard" of God.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 1, 2013)

swampstalker24 said:


> So if a child has not found God, say 10 years old, and dies, he/she is condemed to eternal - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -, because based on your reasoning, they are atheist?



No.  I think ignorance is an excuse in Gods eyes to some extent, but once a child or adult understands the concept of God there is a period of time before they decide to accept it.  It may be a nanosecond or years.  For that gap of time they are an Atheist.

Told you I was feeling contrary today, but the original post was said in jest to Ambush80.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 1, 2013)

Good thread, as I have always believed that the most ardent christian can eventually turn his back on Christianity for many reasons.   The book of Hebrews addresses many who no longer (inferring they once did) thought of Jesus as anything more than a man.   

Some of the 'once-saved, always-saved' group believe this is impossible, but they use circular reasoning.    

I've also found that most of the atheists i'm familiar with were once Catholic....a denomination where most followers never experience being 'born again'.

That would be a good rewording of the OP.   "How many atheists were once 'born again' christians?"    

Don't know that song....but it's a good ole southern gospel classic....

"I can tell you 'bout the time,
I can take you to the place, 
where the Lord saved me
by His wonderful grace..."

Christians -- true Christians -- can remember the exact time when they were born again.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 1, 2013)

I remember when it happened.. When I was born again. I was raised southern baptist.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 1, 2013)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Good thread, as I have always believed that the most ardent christian can eventually turn his back on Christianity for many reasons.   The book of Hebrews addresses many who no longer (inferring they once did) thought of Jesus as anything more than a man.
> 
> Some of the 'once-saved, always-saved' group believe this is impossible, but they use circular reasoning.
> 
> ...



I thought becoming a Christian and being "born again" was the same thing. Why do you say Catholics are never "born again?"
Still looking for a few Christians or Atheist who have went back and forth or is that even possible?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 1, 2013)

Didn't say "never".    I said, "...where MOST followers...."    I believe that there are actual born-again catholics.

I was just saying that many claim christianity just because they go to church, or have christian parents, etc.    Being born-again is a personal, one-on-one thing, as I'm sure you'd agree.

I believe that there are also atheists, as Triple states, that were once truly born again, but turned away.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 1, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> I remember when it happened.. When I was born again. I was raised southern baptist.



We're you filled with the Holy Ghost?  You will have no doubt about if if you were.  Just curious?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 1, 2013)

Semper,

do you believe that only Holy Ghost filled Christians are the only ones truly born again?


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## bullethead (Jul 1, 2013)

It is all a fine line...
The Holy Ghost never fills anyone outside of the Christian religion. The answer is because the person must believe so greatly that the Holy Ghost chooses to fill him/her. But in reality their overzealous desire to be filled often is the reason that they get filled. It is the mental and physical culmination of years of religious practices, beliefs and needs that comes to a head. That Holy Ghost seems to fill some Christians of certain Christian denominations and yet totally avoids devout believers in other Christian denominations.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 1, 2013)

LOL    one misconception after another.    Obviously you know nothing at all about it....or what the bible says about it.

You are right on one thing; it's only for those who believe.    If a christian thinks, "that HG stuff was only for the 1st century christians and died out!"....then, yep, they will never be filled.

I was filled when I was eating supper.   

It really does seem like you just make stuff up out of frustration sometimes, Bullet   No No:


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 1, 2013)

bullethead said:


> It is the mental and physical culmination of years of religious practices, beliefs and needs that comes to a head.



So, you know people who were filled as a "culmination of years of religious practices, beliefs and needs that comes to a head"?


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## bullethead (Jul 1, 2013)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> LOL    one misconception after another.    Obviously you know nothing at all about it....or what the bible says about it.
> 
> You are right on one thing; it's only for those who believe.    If a christian thinks, "that HG stuff was only for the 1st century christians and died out!"....then, yep, they will never be filled.
> 
> ...



Bandy we previously discussed your event. When pressed you came up with less and less viable answers.
I am not making any thing up, I am basing my statements off of researching the different Christian denominations and the amount of "fillings" reported in those studies.
NO they do not all happen at church but an overwhelming majority happen to people that just also happen to be in denominations where being filled by the Holy Ghost is discussed and preached more regularly.
There are instances where a child might wake up in the middle of the night be in a tearful fit with uncontrollable body shakes and screaming out loud in inaudible rants.
Parents of the child in one denomination may tend to rush in and try to console the child, wondering if it is a dream, nightmare, or if something traumatic happened that day or in the past, then possibly seek help for the child.
Other parents might hear such a commotion and stop their spouse as they leave to check on the child and tell their spouse...."Oh Little Bobby gonna be alright, he just getting filled with the Holy Ghost right now" and continue whatever they were doing only to explain to the child afterwards that the Holy Ghost was responsible for the incident. Coincidentally, statistics show, that is more likely to happen in certain denominations more than others. Beliefs, indoctrination, upbringing and YES,,peer pressure are all contributing factors.


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## bullethead (Jul 1, 2013)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> So, you know people who were filled as a "culmination of years of religious practices, beliefs and needs that comes to a head"?



No, I do not. Not many of those congregations in my part of the woods. Just go by what I have researched.

I have seen people that were sort of religious or not very religious at all of a sudden go to super follower due to practices, beliefs and needs.....also meeting a new love interest or traumatic event drives them into being God's #1 fan and EVERYTHING they talk about is because of their new found love of the Lord. Filled w the Holy Ghost without the official stamp.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 1, 2013)

I'd be surprised if ANYONE was filled outside of a denomination that believes in it.    He's not going to force it on anyone.    

My 'event' is just one example that shows your statement is incorrect.    I wasn't pursuing it, or in church, or having an "overzealous desire" for anything but my next bite of steak.   Also, I know many who were filled outside of church....one doing yard work.    "from out of nowhere" best describes how I, and others, were filled.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 1, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I have seen people that were sort of religious or not very religious at all of a sudden go to super follower due to practices, beliefs and needs.....also meeting a new love interest or traumatic event drives them into being God's #1 fan and EVERYTHING they talk about is because of their new found love of the Lord. Filled w the Holy Ghost without the official stamp.



Not even close to what the infilling is!        I was all that you just described years and years before the infilling.

Yet another misconception corrected.


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## bullethead (Jul 1, 2013)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> I'd be surprised if ANYONE was filled outside of a denomination that believes in it.    He's not going to force it on anyone.
> 
> My 'event' is just one example that shows your statement is incorrect.    I wasn't pursuing it, or in church, or having an "overzealous desire" for anything but my next bite of steak.   Also, I know many who were filled outside of church....one doing yard work.    "from out of nowhere" best describes how I, and others, were filled.



I know all about your event. We discussed in a previous thread. What are the odds the HG is gonna fill someone (no matter where they are at) that has been involved in a church, family and surrounded by a congregation where such an event is spoken of and given more attention to in sermons and where Bible verses of such things are used more often? Do you think it happening to a family member(esp parent or sibling),buddy, co-worker, member of the congregation, or kid down the street that are all also part of the same church does not have an effect on someone else within that same congregation???

I am not saying what you experienced was not a unique happening. But You cannot tell me that your common practices and beliefs are not geared towards such an event.

Now if I am dining on our usual venison backstraps this 4th of July weekend and such an event happens to me AND the Holy Ghost says believe it brother, then I will be impressed. I am betting that it will happen to someone this weekend, but the odds that it will be someone that is more closely related to that style of upbringing and practices are much greater than it being someone that is not. No sense preaching to the choir they are already on your side. Convince the guy outside and you've done something. Should not be too much of a chore for the HG??? Huh??


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## bullethead (Jul 1, 2013)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> I'd be surprised if ANYONE was filled outside of a denomination that believes in it.    He's not going to force it on anyone.



Now your onto something>>>>>..........


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## bullethead (Jul 1, 2013)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Not even close to what the infilling is!        I was all that you just described years and years before the infilling.
> 
> Yet another misconception corrected.



PLEASE.....
No misconception there. Just an example of how people say they are stricken with a sign of the Lord.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 1, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I know all about your event. We discussed in a previous thread. What are the odds the HG is gonna fill someone (no matter where they are at) that has been involved in a church, family and surrounded by a congregation where such an event is spoken of and given more attention to in sermons and where Bible verses of such things are used more often? Do you think it happening to a family member(esp parent or sibling),buddy, co-worker, member of the congregation, or kid down the street that are all also part of the same church does not have an effect on someone else within that same congregation???
> 
> I am not saying what you experienced was not a unique happening. But You cannot tell me that your common practices and beliefs are not geared towards such an event.
> 
> Now if I am dining on our usual venison backstraps this 4th of July weekend and such an event happens to me AND the Holy Ghost says believe it brother, then I will be impressed. I am betting that it will happen to someone this weekend, but the odds that it will be someone that is more closely related to that style of upbringing and practices are much greater than it being someone that is not. No sense preaching to the choir they are already on your side. Convince the guy outside and you've done something. Should not be too much of a chore for the HG??? Huh??



You're absolutely right, Bullet.   It wouldn't happen to someone outside the church, and doesn't happen to most in the church.   Just like it was back in Acts.    The HG fell on "believers"...never on non-believers.   

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 1, 2013)

bullethead said:


> PLEASE.....
> No misconception there. Just an example of how people say they are stricken with a sign of the Lord.



lol   I was a christian for almost 30 years before this 'sign of the Lord' event happened to me.    I've never heard people claim a 'sign' from just believing.   You must know some weird believers that I've never ever ran into.

Stricken.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 1, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> We're you filled with the Holy Ghost?  You will have no doubt about if if you were.  Just curious?



Really?

YES.. I was filled with the holiest of ghosts. I felt him stand the hairs up on my neck and I fell to my knees. I have no doubt it was the spirit of GOD in me.

What do you expect me to tell you???? I was as saved and born again and christian as any one of you. I lived for my savior as best I could. I was definitely filled with something that had been fed to me...


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 1, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Bandy we previously discussed your event. When pressed you came up with less and less viable answers.
> I am not making any thing up, I am basing my statements off of researching the different Christian denominations and the amount of "fillings" reported in those studies.
> NO they do not all happen at church but an overwhelming majority happen to people that just also happen to be in denominations where being filled by the Holy Ghost is discussed and preached more regularly.
> There are instances where a child might wake up in the middle of the night be in a tearful fit with uncontrollable body shakes and screaming out loud in inaudible rants.
> ...



I would have to agree with the way different denominations feel about the physical effects of having the Holy Ghost enter your body. Being raised Baptist we didn't stress the Holy Ghost as much as the "Holiness" denomination. I have felt the power of the Holy Ghost. To some you must talk in tongues as proof of receiving the Holy Ghost. I never personally knew anyone with physical events like uncontrolled jumping/hollering except Holiness, Primative Baptist, Or Jesus Only Pentecostals. Baptist & Methodist that I knew were always more calm when they received the Holy Ghost. I've never seen anyone drunk with the Holy Ghost except on You Tube. I can't explaing why the Holy Ghost appears to affect denominations differently.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 1, 2013)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> LOL    one misconception after another.    Obviously you know nothing at all about it....or what the bible says about it.
> 
> You are right on one thing; it's only for those who believe.    If a christian thinks, "that HG stuff was only for the 1st century christians and died out!"....then, yep, they will never be filled.
> 
> ...



What I think  he's doing is saying what most believers know about their own beliefs but saying it from a different perspective that makes it sound like it's nonsense. Perspective can completely change things...


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 1, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I would have to agree with the way different denominations feel about the physical effects of having the Holy Ghost enter your body. Being raised Baptist we didn't stress the Holy Ghost as much as the "Holiness" denomination. I have felt the power of the Holy Ghost. To some you must talk in tongues as proof of receiving the Holy Ghost. I never personally knew anyone with physical events like uncontrolled jumping/hollering except Holiness, Primative Baptist, Or Jesus Only Pentecostals. Baptist & Methodist that I knew were always more calm when they received the Holy Ghost. I've never seen anyone drunk with the Holy Ghost except on You Tube. I can't explaing why the Holy Ghost appears to affect denominations differently.




You do what you're expected to do...


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 1, 2013)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> lol   I was a christian for almost 30 years before this 'sign of the Lord' event happened to me.    I've never heard people claim a 'sign' from just believing.   You must know some weird believers that I've never ever ran into.
> 
> Stricken.



Watch out, Stigmata might be next for you!


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 1, 2013)

I once went to a healing sermon or whatever you call it for a family member with cancer.. A small church near TN in N GA. The pastor was healing each member of the family, placing his hand on their forehead, doing his thing and then they'd fall back. It came my turn... and I didn't fall. Had my knees been weak or the HG/S taken me, I would have had no choice but to fall. The pastor tried several times, but it didn't work. I had absolutely no expectation that I would fall, not because I don't believe in god, because this was before that. I had no expectation that I would have the need to fall because I wasn't raised in a church like that. I had always been told that kind of thing was bogus and for show. You can call it that I wasn't earnestly looking for hIm or that I didn't believe enough, but the fact remains, I didn't fall...


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 1, 2013)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Semper,
> 
> do you believe that only Holy Ghost filled Christians are the only ones truly born again?



I don't know, but I would have a very hard time understanding how someone who was filled with the Holy Ghost as I was could ever deny the existence of God.  Fall away? Yes, but deny God's existence?  No.  I just can't see that happening.  It's too powerful of an experience.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 1, 2013)

Explain what your powerful holy ghost filled experience(s) was like?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 1, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I don't know, but I would have a very hard time understanding how someone who was filled with the Holy Ghost as I was could ever deny the existence of God.  Fall away? Yes, but deny God's existence?  No.  I just can't see that happening.  It's too powerful of an experience.



No doubt, Semper.   Much more than a warm fuzzy feeling and hair standing up.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 1, 2013)

bullethead said:


> It is all a fine line...
> The Holy Ghost never fills anyone outside of the Christian religion. The answer is because the person must believe so greatly that the Holy Ghost chooses to fill him/her. But in reality their overzealous desire to be filled often is the reason that they get filled. It is the mental and physical culmination of years of religious practices, beliefs and needs that comes to a head. That Holy Ghost seems to fill some Christians of certain Christian denominations and yet totally avoids devout believers in other Christian denominations.



Bullet I can tell you that was not the case for me.  I was 14.  I decided to accept Christ as my savior one morning at Church.  They were going to baptize me that evening.  When I showed up that evening I was directed to go get changed into the clothes I was going to be baptized in.  I went into a bathroom stall to change clothes and was in my underwear when KABOOM!!!  There had been no preaching, praying of even singing prior to that.  i had never even heard of the Holy Spirit.  It was almost 20 years later till I understood hat had happened to me that night, but it was so powerful an experience I could never deny it.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 1, 2013)

I don't see how it could be that moving and powerful, yet it took you 20 years to know that it was the HG. If it was so big, why didn't you go ask your mom or your pastor?


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 1, 2013)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> I'd be surprised if ANYONE was filled outside of a denomination that believes in it.    He's not going to force it on anyone.
> 
> My 'event' is just one example that shows your statement is incorrect.    I wasn't pursuing it, or in church, or having an "overzealous desire" for anything but my next bite of steak.   Also, I know many who were filled outside of church....one doing yard work.    "from out of nowhere" best describes how I, and others, were filled.




This is gonna raise a bunch if eye brows but my first time happened in a LDS church.  I don't accept their teaching now and as to my understanding then, I was only accepting
Christ as my savior.  My experience is why I say you can't put handcuffs on how God saves.


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## bullethead (Jul 1, 2013)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> lol   I was a christian for almost 30 years before this 'sign of the Lord' event happened to me.    I've never heard people claim a 'sign' from just believing.   You must know some weird believers that I've never ever ran into.
> 
> Stricken.



Brother, I know LOTS of weird believers.


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## bullethead (Jul 1, 2013)

artfuldodger said:


> i would have to agree with the way different denominations feel about the physical effects of having the holy ghost enter your body. Being raised baptist we didn't stress the holy ghost as much as the "holiness" denomination. I have felt the power of the holy ghost. To some you must talk in tongues as proof of receiving the holy ghost. I never personally knew anyone with physical events like uncontrolled jumping/hollering except holiness, primative baptist, or jesus only pentecostals. Baptist & methodist that i knew were always more calm when they received the holy ghost. I've never seen anyone drunk with the holy ghost except on you tube. I can't explaing why the holy ghost appears to affect denominations differently.



bingo


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## bullethead (Jul 1, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> What I think  he's doing is saying what most believers know about their own beliefs but saying it from a different perspective that makes it sound like it's nonsense. Perspective can completely change things...



Absolutely


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## bullethead (Jul 1, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Bullet I can tell you that was not the case for me.  I was 14.  I decided to accept Christ as my savior one morning at Church.  They were going to baptize me that evening.  When I showed up that evening I was directed to go get changed into the clothes I was going to be baptized in.  I went into a bathroom stall to change clothes and was in my underwear when KABOOM!!!  There had been no preaching, praying of even singing prior to that.  i had never even heard of the Holy Spirit.  It was almost 20 years later till I understood hat had happened to me that night, but it was so powerful an experience I could never deny it.



I am guessing you had gone to church before you could even walk or talk. Am I correct?


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 1, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> I don't see how it could be that moving and powerful, yet it took you 20 years to know that it was the HG. If it was so big, why didn't you go ask your mom or your pastor?



Like I said.  It happened in a LDS church that my step father had us going to after they had just married.   He shortly afterward turned out to be an abusing psychopath and we didn't ever go back to that church because he kept ties with it after they divorced.  I graduated High School, went into the Marines, got out, did some stuff I ain't proud of and it was a long trip back before I ever set foot in a Church again.  Eventually I started looking around for a church to take my family to and it was only then did I come to understand what happened to me back years earlier in that bathroom in my underwear.  I've had one other experience since then and it was just as unexpected and just as powerful.  I had been praying that morning then got in my car to go to Golden Coral to eat breakfast.  Half way to town and " KABOOM" all over again.  Had to pull off the road.  Like I said, if it ever happens to you there is no doubt in your mind of what is going on.    That's why I asked you what I did earlier, because if it was the Holy Spirit you would have no doubt.  No drug even comes close to that experience.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 1, 2013)

Of course I don't believe it was the HG in the first place... but again, I don't see how something you say was that big, meant little to you for 20 years.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 1, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I am guessing you had gone to church before you could even walk or talk. Am I correct?



No.  Dead wrong.  My mom fell at with the church before I was old enough to understand anything.  We never attended any church after that until she remarried and we started at the LDS.  I don't know how familiar you are with the LDS doctrine, but they ain't exactly synonymous with those of the United Pentacostal Church, especially with regards to the person of the Holy Spirit.


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## bullethead (Jul 1, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Like I said.  It happened in a LDS church that my step father had us going to after they had just married.   He shortly afterward turned out to be an abusing psychopath and we didn't ever go back to that church because he kept ties with it after they divorced.  I graduated High School, went into the Marines, got out, did some stuff I ain't proud of and it was a long trip back before I ever set foot in a Church again.  Eventually I started looking around for a church to take my family to and it was only then did I come to understand what happened to me back years earlier in that bathroom in my underwear.  I've had one other experience since then and it was just as unexpected and just as powerful.  I had been praying that morning then got in my car to go to Golden Coral to eat breakfast.  Half way to town and " KABOOM" all over again.  Had to pull off the road.  Like I said, if it ever happens to you there is no doubt in your mind of what is going on.    That's why I asked you what I did earlier, because if it was the Holy Spirit you would have no doubt.  No drug even comes close to that experience.



14 years old.......Golden Corral.......

Bandy I think I am seeing a pattern here.........


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 1, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Of course I don't believe it was the HG in the first place... but again, I don't see how something you say was that big, meant little to you for 20 years.



  If you didn't believe you Grandfather's testimony I certainly don't expect you to believe mine.  One day you will believe.  There's absolutely no doubt about that.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 1, 2013)

bullethead said:


> 14 years old.......Golden Corral.......
> 
> Bandy I think I am seeing a pattern here.........



Yeah we already talked about that.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 1, 2013)

I'm glad this topic has gone towards Holy Ghost experiences as nothing could be better. In my Baptist Church most conversions were mild. I never knew of a Baptist child waking up crying and confused when the Holy Spirit entered his body. Pentecostal child, yes. In my Grandmother's Holiness Church conversions  were intense with Holy rolling in the floor. It scared me as a child. I oftened wondered why Christians in our Church didn't do that. We went to Holiness Campground meetings where people talked in tongues, fell over when the preacher touched them, jerked around on the floor, etc. Never no Holy laughter though. Still I wondered if something was missing from our Church. 
What proof is necessary for one to possess the Holy Spirit to the point of being a Christian or to the point of never being able to leave? I have felt the power of the Holy Spirit at different times.
What about the power of our wife's love that we felt at the moment we were in love? How many people would ever of thought they would ever be able to give that up? Hearts grow cold. Some just fall into temptation and one thing leads to another. Satan is powerful. 
To some their faith is stronger than others. Satan snags some but not all. I don't think having the Holy Spirit is proof that you can't lose it and it would be wrong to say that former Christians never had it. I would imagine that if one denounced the Holy Spirit he would leave your body.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 1, 2013)

Maybe someone will come along that has gone between Christianity and Atheism or another religion and I'll show this thread to that member who wanted proof of this being possible.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 2, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> If you didn't believe you Grandfather's testimony I certainly don't expect you to believe mine.  One day you will believe.  There's absolutely no doubt about that.



Is there? Please understand what an opinion is...


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 2, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm glad this topic has gone towards Holy Ghost experiences as nothing could be better. In my Baptist Church most conversions were mild. I never knew of a Baptist child waking up crying and confused when the Holy Spirit entered his body. Pentecostal child, yes. In my Grandmother's Holiness Church conversions  were intense with Holy rolling in the floor. It scared me as a child. I oftened wondered why Christians in our Church didn't do that. We went to Holiness Campground meetings where people talked in tongues, fell over when the preacher touched them, jerked around on the floor, etc. Never no Holy laughter though. Still I wondered if something was missing from our Church.
> What proof is necessary for one to possess the Holy Spirit to the point of being a Christian or to the point of never being able to leave? I have felt the power of the Holy Spirit at different times.
> What about the power of our wife's love that we felt at the moment we were in love? How many people would ever of thought they would ever be able to give that up? Hearts grow cold. Some just fall into temptation and one thing leads to another. Satan is powerful.
> To some their faith is stronger than others. Satan snags some but not all. I don't think having the Holy Spirit is proof that you can't lose it and it would be wrong to say that former Christians never had it. I would imagine that if one denounced the Holy Spirit he would leave your body.



Is that not what you do when you call your self agnostic or atheist????


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 2, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Is that not what you do when you call your self agnostic or atheist????



I'm not sure what you are asking but if it's denouncing the Holy Spirit then yes that is  one way as I see it. 
Some Christians believe that you can't give up salvation once you have it. They have never known a Christian who has lost their salvation. They would maintain that for someone to do this they would have never been saved to start with. Someone wanted a testimony of a Christian who had become lost again. Especially a person who had   gone back and forth between Christianity and another religion or between Christianity and not believing.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 2, 2013)

If Triple at one time "confessed with his mouth the Lord Jesus, and believed in His heart that God raised Him from the dead" -- as he said he did, then he was saved at one time.    

If he now believes that Jesus was just a man, and His blood was not holy (Hebrews) then he is no longer saved.   

my 2 cents


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 2, 2013)

I was once as saved as any one of you here... Including SFD.. 

There's absolutely no doubt about that.


I am no longer saved... I have denounced the holy spirit. I actually did it where I went to church as an early teen. I have had no fewer "blessings" in my life, or circumstances that one could attribute to god's work. I am no longer saved because I realized that there was nothing of that sort to be saved from...


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 2, 2013)

An apostate   (no offense, Triple) 

Triple is as good an example as one can find.   To deny it is just to be letting tradition and opinion rule.    Forcing the facts into a theory.  (lol   kinda like Evolution ) 

Romans 10:9 says how we are saved, and Triple did that at one time.   He no longer believes that way.   He has denounced his salvation....


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 2, 2013)

I am just as easily denying the tradition and opinion. In the US, a belief in god, especially a christian belief, is by far the ruling tradition.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 2, 2013)

No doubt there!   But, according to the bible, tradition and opinion do not save.   What someone believes in their heart saves them, or unsaves them.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jul 2, 2013)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> No doubt there!   But, according to the bible, tradition and opinion do not save.   What someone believes in their heart saves them, or unsaves them.



You know Bandy, you asked me yesterday if only those who have been sealed by a baptism of the Holy Spirit were saved and I replied that I didn't know.  But I wonder if that is the case.  Do you know anyone who was actually filled with the HS and then later denied the existence of God?


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jul 2, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Is there? Please understand what an opinion is...



Yes.  Make no mistake about it my friend.  Your knee will bow before God one day willingly or unwillingly; Either in humility, gratefulness and worship or in shame,fear and sorrow, but you will bow.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 2, 2013)

I'll try not to make the mistake again.. There's no doubt about it that you've got it right.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 2, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> You know Bandy, you asked me yesterday if only those who have been sealed by a baptism of the Holy Spirit were saved and I replied that I didn't know.  But I wonder if that is the case.  Do you know anyone who was actually filled with the HS and then later denied the existence of God?



That would be impossible.      hard to deny He exists when you've met Him.   When God fills you, as He does during the baptism, I think it would be very hard to fall away.    You'd have to start thinking that the baptism was just some odd coincidence that struck you out of nowhere.  lol


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 2, 2013)

Ghosts..........


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jul 2, 2013)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> That would be impossible.      hard to deny He exists when you've met Him.   When God fills you, as He does during the baptism, I think it would be very hard to fall away.    You'd have to start thinking that the baptism was just some odd coincidence that struck you out of nowhere.  lol



What's your personal thoughts on the subject?  Is being filled with the HS necessary to be truly saved?


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 2, 2013)

Absolutely not.    Faith is what saves.   

confess with your mouth, believe in your heart.

I know that some denominations believe that a person is filled at the exact time they are saved, but there is absolutely zero evidence for that stance.    The baptism in the HG was something that drew attention.   "these are not drunk as ye suppose".    Others could (can) see when someone is baptised in the HG....it's not invisible.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 2, 2013)

this HG discussion might be better in one of the other forums.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 2, 2013)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> this HG discussion might be better in one of the other forums.



Probably


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 2, 2013)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Absolutely not.    Faith is what saves.
> 
> confess with your mouth, believe in your heart.
> 
> I know that some denominations believe that a person is filled at the exact time they are saved, but there is absolutely zero evidence for that stance.    The baptism in the HG was something that drew attention.   "these are not drunk as ye suppose".    Others could (can) see when someone is baptised in the HG....it's not invisible.




Uh-oh... ZERO evidence???


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 2, 2013)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> An apostate   (no offense, Triple)
> 
> Triple is as good an example as one can find.   To deny it is just to be letting tradition and opinion rule.    Forcing the facts into a theory.  (lol   kinda like Evolution )
> 
> Romans 10:9 says how we are saved, and Triple did that at one time.   He no longer believes that way.   He has denounced his salvation....



That is the way I see it. It's like falling out of love.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jul 2, 2013)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> this HG discussion might be better in one of the other forums.



Yeah I thought about that and its been beat to death on the other forum.  I just wanted your personal take before I drop it.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 2, 2013)

I've got to visit the other forums more!  lol    I've participated in the discussions long ago, but didn't know there had been more.    You need to make me aware of any HG discussions from now on


----------



## JFS (Jul 2, 2013)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> I think it would be very hard to fall away.



Nah, happens with Santa, happens with "God".  Plenty of people rethink beliefs when they grow up.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 2, 2013)

Lol     I love the santa-equates-to-Jesus analogies!     There are countless books out there that try to discredit Jesus...(which attests to how great He is)  but I can't think of one single book out there dedicated to explaining away Santa.   LOL

Wonder why?


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 2, 2013)

Oh....and here's another good one....

How many people come to believe in Santa late in life?


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 2, 2013)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Lol     I love the santa-equates-to-Jesus analogies!     There are countless books out there that try to discredit Jesus...(which attests to how great He is)  but I can't think of one single book out there dedicated to explaining away Santa.   LOL
> 
> Wonder why?



How many books are there that try to discredit Hitler? It attests to  nothing.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 2, 2013)

there aren't any....just like there is no comparison between believing in Santa and believing in God....as you said.

Many PHD's believe in God....none (that I know of) believe in Santa Claus.

I trust that you'll never compare belief in God with belief in Santa again...


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 2, 2013)

It's not a one to one comparison. Maybe it should be. Where we use it to help keep kids in line and learn how to live in the real world and be good boys and girls.


----------



## JFS (Jul 2, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Where we use it to help keep kids in line and learn how to live in the real world and be good boys and girls.



It's the training ground.  Omniscient old magic dude keeps score and rewards those who are good an believe.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 2, 2013)

Santa is much nicer though... You don't get eternal torment for not believing.. Worst case you get nothing... Or maybe just some cole... But hey, cole has value..


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jul 2, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Santa is much nicer though... You don't get eternal torment for not believing.. Worst case you get nothing... Or maybe just some cole... But hey, cole has value..



You're not gonna need it.  Word is it's quiet toasty in the spot you've chosen to spend eternity.


----------



## ddd-shooter (Jul 2, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> I am just as easily denying the tradition and opinion. In the US, a belief in god, especially a christian belief, is by far the ruling tradition.



I just wonder how atheists explain those around the world who come to know Christ and even experience the "Holy Ghost."

Yes, they are all told about Jesus, but they certainly didn't grow up that way...


----------



## bullethead (Jul 2, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> I just wonder how atheists explain those around the world who come to know Christ and even experience the "Holy Ghost."
> 
> Yes, they are all told about Jesus, but they certainly didn't grow up that way...



The same way Christians explain how former Christians become Atheists or followers of another religion.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 2, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> I just wonder how atheists explain those around the world who come to know Christ and even experience the "Holy Ghost."
> 
> Yes, they are all told about Jesus, but they certainly didn't grow up that way...



According to some of your fellow Christians on here that is not supposed to happen and does not happen. See their Bible verses.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 3, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> I just wonder how atheists explain those around the world who come to know Christ and even experience the "Holy Ghost."
> 
> Yes, they are all told about Jesus, but they certainly didn't grow up that way...



Could you explain this a little more? I'm not sure what you are asking/saying.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 3, 2013)

bullethead said:


> According to some of your fellow Christians on here that is not supposed to happen and does not happen. See their Bible verses.



What is not supposed to happen?


----------



## bullethead (Jul 3, 2013)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> What is not supposed to happen?



People outside of the Church do not experience being filled by the HG. People who do not announce Jesus as their savior cannot be saved and experience the HG.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 3, 2013)

I guess the Holy Ghost experiences  are being used to deny that a Christian can't lose faith and go astray. Many Bible verses warn us that we can go astray.
I guess the difference in my belief and others is that the Holy Spirit guides us but doesn't 100% totally take away our freewill.
That would explain why some Atheist once had salvation. Still looking for a few more anti-testimonies of former Christians.
I thought there would be more since so many Athiest were once Christians.
We have to realize some Christians convert to Judiasm, Muslim, and even denominations that mainstream Christianity doesn't consider Christian. Did they not possess the Holy Ghost? Were they never Christian?


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 3, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> No.  Dead wrong.  My mom fell at with the church before I was old enough to understand anything.  We never attended any church after that until she remarried and we started at the LDS.  I don't know how familiar you are with the LDS doctrine, but they ain't exactly synonymous with those of the United Pentacostal Church, especially with regards to the person of the Holy Spirit.



So you're saying you had this deeply moving experience with a holy ghost... yet stayed out of church until your mom remarried? You just said you could never have that kind of experience and deny god... But you did...


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 3, 2013)

bullethead said:


> People outside of the Church do not experience being filled by the HG. People who do not announce Jesus as their savior cannot be saved and experience the HG.



I don't see how DDD-shooter was saying something that wasn't supposed to happen.    You are right (and I'm sure DDD agrees) ...coming to faith in Christ is a prerequisite to being filled with the HG.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 3, 2013)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> That would be impossible.      hard to deny He exists when you've met Him.   When God fills you, as He does during the baptism, I think it would be very hard to fall away.    You'd have to start thinking that the baptism was just some odd coincidence that struck you out of nowhere.  lol




SFD says it's possible. He didn't even know what it was for 20 years..


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 3, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> SFD says it's possible. He didn't even know what it was for 20 years..



Oh, I thought you were putting words in his mouth.   I didn't know that he said he denied god....I thought he just said he wasn't in church.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jul 3, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> So you're saying you had this deeply moving experience with a holy ghost... yet stayed out of church until your mom remarried? You just said you could never have that kind of experience and deny god... But you did...



No sorry I was vague.  She fell out with the Baptist church when she and my dad divorced.  I was about 10.  She remarried the psyco LDS step dad when I was 12.  SO I WAS 13 or 14 when I was baptized and filled with the HS.  They separated very shortly after that.  I don't recall ever going back to that church again.  If I did it was only once or twice just after my baptism but before they separated.  Then for years after that nothing, but I never Denied God existed.  I knew he had touched me that day and it was something I never forgot


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 3, 2013)

You said you didn't even know what it was for 20 years... but you knew he touched you? Which is it? If I was the amazingly powerful baptism of the hg I can't imagine sitting around idly for any amount of time. You're saying it's undeniable... yet you sat on it for 20 years?


----------



## bullethead (Jul 3, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> You said you didn't even know what it was for 20 years... but you knew he touched you? Which is it? If I was the amazingly powerful baptism of the hg I can't imagine sitting around idly for any amount of time. You're saying it's undeniable... yet you sat on it for 20 years?



Stories change to suit............ever read the Bible?


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 3, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Stories change to suit............ever read the Bible?



I think you two are building a straw man   (it's a habit)

Not sure, but I don't think SFD said he didn't believe in god.

SFD?


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 3, 2013)

I didn't say didn't believe... just didn't care, maybe.


We may be building or own straw men... to compare to yours...


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 3, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> ... You just said you could never have that kind of experience and deny god... But you did...




This is what you said...    He did what?


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 3, 2013)

denied god (his life, his attention, his obedience)    how about that?


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jul 3, 2013)

Look TXB and bullet.  You can't go back and put words in my mouth.  I typed exactly what I mean.  If you have a problem with comprehension go back and read it again.  You're playing the fool with this childish game in attempting to mislead what is visibly stated.  The bottom line is you don't accept the facts so you're having to take this fools errand in an attempt to save face.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 3, 2013)

You're right... I'm not accepting the fact of your god being the truth. If that's what you've got, you shouldn't really be  posting here.

So what was your attitude toward god after your kaboom baptism by the hg. Over that time period of 20 years that you mentioned before you realized what it really was.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jul 3, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> You're right... I'm not accepting the fact of your god being the truth. If that's what you've got, you shouldn't really be  posting here



Really?  On what grounds?  Is it because you consistently take indefensible positions and then can't logically give a reasonable defense of them, or is it just that your rebellion against God is so complete that you despise the mere mention of anything even remotely related to God? 

The bottom line is it was your decision to engage in this thread.  If you don't like where it's going then disengage from it.  Pick up your toys and go home.  But don't be so childish as to challenge someone then cry foul when your challenge is answered, and you don't like the answer.  Man up in one way or another.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 3, 2013)

Oh your god....


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 3, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> So what was your attitude toward god after your kaboom baptism by the hg. Over that time period of 20 years that you mentioned before you realized what it really was.



again


----------



## 660griz (Jul 15, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> No.  I think ignorance is an excuse in Gods eyes to some extent, but once a child or adult understands the concept of God there is a period of time before they decide to accept it.  It may be a nanosecond or years.  For that gap of time they are an Atheist.



So, by the concept of God being pushed on me by parents and others, they have condemned me to he-double hockey sticks. I could have gotten a free pass if left alone. 

Grew up southern baptist. Baptised twice...didn't take.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 15, 2013)

660griz said:


> So, by the concept of God being pushed on me by parents and others, they have condemned me to he-double hockey sticks. I could have gotten a free pass if left alone.
> 
> Grew up southern baptist. Baptised twice...didn't take.



There is a verse about it better to have never heard the word of God than to have heard and not believed. I don't know why or what would be better in ref. to Heaven or He!!.

We all were born with the inherited sin of Adam. I don't know how not knowing about God will save you from that inheritance. 

Even if we all know right from wrong and do right, it takes more than works to stay out of He!!.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 16, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> There is a verse about it better to have never heard the word of God than to have heard and not believed. I don't know why or what would be better in ref. to Heaven or He!!.
> 
> We all were born with the inherited sin of Adam. I don't know how not knowing about God will save you from that inheritance.
> 
> Even if we all know right from wrong and do right, it takes more than works to stay out of He!!.



Inherited sin of Adam....
Is this literal or another metaphor?


----------



## fish hawk (Jul 23, 2013)

Nothing sadder than someone who knew God but lost him and now doesn't even care.


----------



## ambush80 (Jul 23, 2013)

fish hawk said:


> Nothing sadder than someone who knew God but lost him and now doesn't even care.



I'm much happier and healthier now.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 23, 2013)

fish hawk said:


> Nothing sadder than someone who knew God but lost him and now doesn't even care.



Nothing sadder than a human with a brain who refuses to use it...


----------



## stringmusic (Jul 23, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> I'm much happier and healthier now.



You're eatin' more veggies since you denounced God?


----------



## stringmusic (Jul 23, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Nothing sadder than a human with a brain who refuses to use it...



No doubt about that.


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 23, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> You're eatin' more veggies since you denounced God?





I wonder if there is a correlation between AA and veganism.  It would make sense, given that all things are equal.  I do know one Christian vegan....nobody likes her.


----------



## stringmusic (Jul 23, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I wonder if there is a correlation between AA and veganism.  It would make sense, given that all things are equal.  I do know one Christian vegan....nobody likes her.


----------



## ambush80 (Jul 23, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> You're eatin' more veggies since you denounced God?




When  I decided to try different things, looking for other gods included, I tried a vegetarian lifestyle.  Then I shot a rabbit and ate it.  

That was the beginning of my hunting career.  I have a different outlook on how I use animals now that I don't believe I have god granted dominion over them.  It's changed my eating habits some.

I love watching an obese preacher blessing the fried chicken.  Oh, well.  He'll be able to climb those Heaven stairs after his coronary.


----------



## stringmusic (Jul 23, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> When  I decided to try different things, looking for other gods included, I tried a vegetarian lifestyle.  Then I shot a rabbit and ate it.
> 
> That was the beginning of my hunting career.  I have a different outlook on how I use animals now that I don't believe I have god granted dominion over them.  It's changed my eating habits some.
> 
> I love watching an obese preacher blessing the fried chicken.  Oh, well.  He'll be able to climb those Heaven stairs after his coronary.



What do you think gives you dominion over animals?


----------



## fish hawk (Jul 24, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Nothing sadder than a human with a brain who refuses to use it...



No need to get so defensive!!!


----------



## 660griz (Jul 24, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> What do you think gives you dominion over animals?



My(the human) brain...


----------



## fish hawk (Jul 24, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> I'm much happier and healthier now.



Yea but that can all change overnight.


----------



## fish hawk (Jul 24, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I do know one Christian vegan....nobody likes her.



Does her breath smell strong like onions???


----------



## stringmusic (Jul 24, 2013)

660griz said:


> My(the human) brain...



Why is that? What about the human brains gives you a right over an animal that has a brain also?


----------



## ambush80 (Jul 24, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> What do you think gives you dominion over animals?



I don't think I have dominion.


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 24, 2013)

fish hawk said:


> Does her breath smell strong like onions???



No, she acts enlightened.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 24, 2013)

fish hawk said:


> No need to get so defensive!!!



I was beating the dead horse... like you were...


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 24, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> I don't think I have dominion.





stringmusic said:


> Why is that? What about the human brains gives you a right over an animal that has a brain also?




I have dominion over the animals that I kill and/or eat because I can. Just like a lion can kill the zebra because it can... and he could kill me. Does the lion get eternal torment when it kills a person, because your god didn't grant him dominion over man?


----------



## 660griz (Jul 24, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Why is that? What about the human brains gives you a right over an animal that has a brain also?



Not sure if you are serious but, I'll bite. Look around at the destruction of habitat, look at conservation efforts, so we can hunt. Look at farms. If we wanted to, we could kill every other animal on the planet. We could also force them to live where we say. We are their gods. 

I am not saying it is right or wrong. Just stating a fact.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 24, 2013)

660griz said:


> Not sure if you are serious but, I'll bite. Look around at the destruction of habitat, look at conservation efforts, so we can hunt. Look at farms. If we wanted to, we could kill every other animal on the planet. We could also force them to live where we say. We are their gods.
> 
> I am not saying it is right or wrong. Just stating a fact.


His point was that it is that way because his god made it that way.


----------



## stringmusic (Jul 24, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> I don't think I have dominion.



But you kill them?


----------



## stringmusic (Jul 24, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> I have dominion over the animals that I kill and/or eat because I can. Just like a lion can kill the zebra because it can... and he could kill me. Does the lion get eternal torment when it kills a person, because your god didn't grant him dominion over man?





660griz said:


> Not sure if you are serious but, I'll bite. Look around at the destruction of habitat, look at conservation efforts, so we can hunt. Look at farms. If we wanted to, we could kill every other animal on the planet. We could also force them to live where we say. We are their gods.
> 
> I am not saying it is right or wrong. Just stating a fact.



Which one are y'all going with?


----------



## stringmusic (Jul 24, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> His point was that it is that way because his god made it that way.



RONG


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 24, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> RONG



So what is it? That's the point you've tried to make before.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 24, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Which one are y'all going with?



We don't have to agree.... We aren't following the laws of the same book... any book...   But I agree with most of what he said. I don't really think we are their gods...


----------



## 660griz (Jul 24, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Which one are y'all going with?



Heck. Go with both of them. Both are possible depending on the situation. 

A lion could and does kill humans occasionally. However, they could never kill all humans. We can kill all lions. Given enough time and money, I alone, could kill all lions. Not that I would. I like lions and are really not sure how they taste. If they turn out to be good eaten, then we must manage them so we can all get a chance to eat one. Mmmmmm lion burger.

Also, we could probably grow a lion in a test tube. Define if its life is going to be a good life or a bad life, decide what we will let it eat, and decide to let it live till normal death or cut it's life short.  A lion cannot grow a human in a test tube, decide where we are going to live...on and on. 
You wouldn't say that is dominion? The fate of every animal on this planet depends on our use of our brains. Can the brains of an entire species of any other animal determine the fate of mankind? Planet of the Apes? I don't think so.


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## JB0704 (Jul 24, 2013)

660griz said:


> A lion could and does kill humans occasionally. However, they could never kill all humans. We can kill all lions. Given enough time and money, I alone, could kill all lions. Not that I would. I like lions and are really not sure how they taste. If they turn out to be good eaten, then we must manage them so we can all get a chance to eat one. Mmmmmm lion burger.



We had a decent discussion on humans being "bear proof" recently.....similar concept, only I used our supremacy as evidence of a difference between us and the animals.  Something we got has allowed us to dominate the Earth in a way no other critter ever has.

Does any predator out there actively practice conservation of resources.....or, do they just eat when hungry or when the urge presents itself?


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## 660griz (Jul 24, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> His point was that it is that way because his god made it that way.



I know. I also know that any answer I gave was going to be followed by his attempt to lead me back to the promise land version of dominion over animals. 
Good stuff though.


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## 660griz (Jul 24, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Does any predator out there actively practice conservation of resources.....or, do they just eat when hungry or when the urge presents itself?



Complicated answer. Yes they eat when hungry. However, if resources are scarce, depending on species, they may not have as many children(something mankind could learn from) or they may wait until resources are available until they deliver. Usually, birth rates and resources balance themselves in nature. I believe, because of man's un fettered killing of animals in the past, it is us that have to save them or balance nature. Too many, you get disease, too few, other animals and plants, in some cases,  suffer.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 24, 2013)

660griz said:


> The fate of every animal on this planet depends on our use of our brains. Can the brains of an entire species of any other animal determine the fate of mankind? Planet of the Apes? I don't think so.



Depends on us? In a way, but I think more accurately is that they are affected by us... they don't really depend on us. The rest of nature would get along perfectly fine, probably better, without us.


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## 660griz (Jul 24, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Depends on us? In a way, but I think more accurately is that they are affected by us... they don't really depend on us. The rest of nature would get along perfectly fine, probably better, without us.



True. Until that happens, they must depend on us to want to keep them around.


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## JB0704 (Jul 24, 2013)

660griz said:


> Usually, birth rates and resources balance themselves in nature.



Yes, and, accidentally if not by design.     



660griz said:


> I believe, because of man's un fettered killing of animals in the past, it is us that have to save them or balance nature. Too many, you get disease, too few, other animals and plants, in some cases,  suffer.



We had the intelligence to learn from mistakes.  Our actions are by choice, not forced natural balance.


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## fish hawk (Jul 24, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> No, she acts enlightened.



Can you explain?


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## JB0704 (Jul 24, 2013)

fish hawk said:


> Can you explain?



As if she has learned something the rest of us have not.  Honestly, it really stinks making veggie burgers for one while preparing a meal for 40.


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## fish hawk (Jul 24, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> As if she has learned something the rest of us have not.  Honestly, it really stinks making veggie burgers for one while preparing a meal for 40.



Thanks.....I would have just threw a slice of tomato,some lettuce and onions between the buns and gave her that!!!


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## JB0704 (Jul 24, 2013)

fish hawk said:


> Thanks.....I would have just threw a slice of tomato,some lettuce and onions between the buns and gave her that!!!



Nah, I'm one of those folks that wants everybody leaving my parties stuffed and happy......even the buddy's wife that nobody likes


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## fish hawk (Jul 25, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Nah, I'm one of those folks that wants everybody leaving my parties stuffed and happy......even the buddy's wife that nobody likes



Your a gracious host!!!


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## 660griz (Jul 25, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Nah, I'm one of those folks that wants everybody leaving my parties stuffed and happy......even the buddy's wife that nobody likes



Did you have to put the veggie burger in a little tin foil "pan" on the grill so it wouldn't touch where meat had been? I had to do that once.


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## JB0704 (Jul 25, 2013)

660griz said:


> Did you have to put the veggie burger in a little tin foil "pan" on the grill so it wouldn't touch where meat had been? I had to do that once.



She didn't get that picky about it.....I guess she didn't think about it, or she would have.  

I would be glad to cook her seperate meals, but she is just not very nice.  Only reason she gets invited to things is 'cause everybody loves her husband.


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## 660griz (Jul 25, 2013)

I'll cook seperate meals for the nice ones too. For the mean ones I just point to the grass. Graze all ya want just don't eat the roses.


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## JB0704 (Jul 25, 2013)

660griz said:


> I'll cook seperate meals for the nice ones too. For the mean ones I just point to the grass. Graze all ya want just don't eat the roses.


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## ambush80 (Jul 25, 2013)

fish hawk said:


> Yea but that can all change overnight.



  If it does, I won't thank/blame either god/ the devil.


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## ambush80 (Jul 25, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> But you kill them?



And one of them may kill me sometime..


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