# Why did Jesus die physically?



## Artfuldodger (Mar 25, 2016)

Well I know why he died physically because he was a human.
Even if God's plan failed, old age one have got em. Not that God's plan could fail though. Even though Jesus was divine, he was human too.
Same as Adam. When Adam sinned he died spiritually, not physically. He would have died physically any way. 
Death as defined by the wages of sin being spiritual death. Adam didn't die physically when he sinned, he died spiritually.

OK, even though we as Christians believe Jesus died for our sins we don't all agree as to exactly what that means. I guess it doesn't matter as long as you believe he died for your sins, substitution or otherwise.

But if one does believe Jesus died spiritually in place of us or for us, if Jesus took our place in some form or faction, for our spiritual death, why did he have to die a physical death?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 25, 2016)

I recall Bro. Hobbs belief that Jesus had to die and resurrect physically as a way to prove, show, or teach to the others that he had in fact beat spiritual death. That no one would believe him if he just told them he died spiritually for our sins.
So by him dying physically and physically resurrecting, he showed that he beat death. This was for the eyes of man as proof.
It was a mirror of spiritual death. A scriptural "type" if you will. 

Otherwise I can't see why the 2nd Adam died physically to amend the spiritual death of the 1st Adam. 

But then there is the blood. The needed blood sacrifice. The atoning blood that is often mentioned. This makes it seem like he had to die physically.

Confused in Martinez


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## hummerpoo (Mar 25, 2016)

Art, I think you sometimes spend unnecessary effort on things that have no potential for real benefit, at least at this time.  Let me share an experience.  I was setting on a gravel bar one night, dreaming of a big ol' flathead catfish trying to run off with the bluegill I had laying at the edge of the current to entice him, when I got to talking with God about some things I knew I wasn't handling too well with my brothers and sisters.  He popped up with the closest thing I can imagine to a verbal communication without seeing someone's lips move.  It was "Is it beneficial?"  I took that to mean that anything that I do toward another should be evaluated for it's potential benefit for that person.  I probably don't need to tell you that am not always successful in making that evaluation, or always applying it properly.  But with His help it has made a big difference.  In the last four years there have been many times I have read the things you talk about, and the questions you ask, and ask myself "What benefit will Art get from exploring that?"  I'm afraid the answer I often gave myself was, "none".  This may not be a "none" question, but kinda looks like one.  But that's really for you to answer.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 26, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> Art, I think you sometimes spend unnecessary effort on things that have no potential for real benefit, at least at this time.  Let me share an experience.  I was setting on a gravel bar one night, dreaming of a big ol' flathead catfish trying to run off with the bluegill I had laying at the edge of the current to entice him, when I got to talking with God about some things I knew I wasn't handling too well with my brothers and sisters.  He popped up with the closest thing I can imagine to a verbal communication without seeing someone's lips move.  It was "Is it beneficial?"  I took that to mean that anything that I do toward another should be evaluated for it's potential benefit for that person.  I probably don't need to tell you that am not always successful in making that evaluation, or always applying it properly.  But with His help it has made a big difference.  In the last four years there have been many times I have read the things you talk about, and the questions you ask, and ask myself "What benefit will Art get from exploring that?"  I'm afraid the answer I often gave myself was, "none".  This may not be a "none" question, but kinda looks like one.  But that's really for you to answer.



I can see your point and I do understand that I ask too many question that neither benefit me or others. Yet the more I ask, I find the less I know. Can knowledge become a hindrance?
So then I ask whether knowledge is of any benefit whatsoever to me or others.

If knowledge doesn't have anything to do with my salvation or even my temporal earthly journey then I've sure wasted a lot of time.

I can assure you that I can find others who seek the Light that I am seeking, asking the same questions for centuries. A part of the Light that goes beyond the basic "I believe Jesus died for my sins."

If that's good enough for some then so be it but don't go past that and say that one must also believe Jesus is God or even what or why  Jesus died for your sins even means.

Don't expect me to believe in Election, Oneness, the Trinity, or even the physical death and resurrection of Jesus if it has no bearing on my salvation or my temporal journey while on the earth.
Don't ask me to seek scriptural knowledge but stop at a certain point or time within that quest. Don't give me a chocolate cookie and then take it away if I get too messy with it.

Perhaps I should be afraid of what I may discover. Maybe ignorance is bliss and I'm better off not knowing except of that as an apprentice or journeyman. The knowledge of a master might be too much light. 
So much that it blinds me.

In respect for your insight on me, I often see or ask myself the same questions?  I can see your concern but I'm a big boy and I'm willing to accept the Light that my journey takes me to.

To me it's not an unnecessary effort but a desire. I do need guidance on putting a damper on it occasionally. Within many of these discussions I sometimes wonder why it is that we respond? What is our motive? What are we seeking?  
Hopefully it's not pride or prejudice.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 26, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Well I know why he died physically because he was a human.
> Even if God's plan failed, old age one have got em. Not that God's plan could fail though. Even though Jesus was divine, he was human too.
> Same as Adam. When Adam sinned he died spiritually, not physically. He would have died physically any way.
> Death as defined by the wages of sin being spiritual death. Adam didn't die physically when he sinned, he died spiritually.
> ...



Because.



Because he was the perfect lamb and the sacrificial lamb is not only an offering to God and meat for the spiritual leaders of the people, but it is meat for all as an expression of God's love that He provides for everyone and especially the poor. In this way the physical becomes spiritual. Therefore for the physical  death of one all live. 

Jesus is not only our spiritual food, he is for believers our physical food as charity to us, not unlike when the sacrificial meats were given to the poor.

The continuation of this physical-spiritual and sacrificial   food today is continued sharing of the  bread and wine by believers as the church, which blessed food is what the priest of  Melchizedek and Abraham shared and which is the food which Jesus blessed and offered as his body and blood in the account of the last supper. It had been continued in the church even to this day.

So you will ask how can bread and wine be our Lord's body today as charity to you and I? It is a remembrance of our Lord's sacrifice on the cross as the lamb of God, and as food to the poor and it is the visible continued offering of the body of Christ, the church to believers, which as Paul claims is the present body of Christ.

Having died with Christ we are now alive as Abraham and Melchisedek were made alive. We are made poor like Abraham made himself poor, and we are poor because like Christ we are servants-- and it is with them we break bread and a perfect food is placed in our mouths. And that food is physical to this day from when our Lord offered himself once and for all,  as charity for us -- the perfect lamb of God.


Bet you got a million questions....  So Jesus died physically  so he could feed you.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 26, 2016)

You will find your answer in Hebrews 9.


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## hummerpoo (Mar 26, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Don't ask me to seek scriptural knowledge but stop at a certain point or time within that quest.


If you can find someone who is "well read", I think they will tell you that most of the great minds of this world have concluded that is exactly what we must do.  (Hey, you may have just defined an element of wisdom).



> Don't give me a chocolate cookie and then take it away if I get too messy with it.



I thought you didn't understand that it was a necessary function of one who love's those who depend on Him to prevent that by serving the cookie in manageable portions (your post #461 on another thread).


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## Israel (Mar 26, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> I can see your point and I do understand that I ask too many question that neither benefit me or others. Yet the more I ask I find the less I know. Can knowledge become a hindrance?
> So then I ask whether knowledge is of any benefit whatsoever to me or others.
> 
> If knowledge doesn't have anything to do with my salvation or even my temporal earthly journey then I've sure wasted a lot of time.
> ...



This is what first came to me:

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;  And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

But that is, so to speak, just a thing coming to my mind.
The "why" of it is what I must ask myself, which your question has provoked, in the presence of God...


And so I do...ask...this question, why? In the trying to square your question and the "why" there...with what comes up in me. It is that "through death" thing upon which all hangs...for me, at least, at this special moment...because in particular, your question "nails" me where I am.

I am the one needing to be reminded...death is conquered through the Lord's death. I am the one found "in flesh and blood"  contending with a level of bondage always fundamental, my own will vs the Lord's will. I feel it as constraint...the thing of which I see that is "good"...the will of God, but the thing I experience "in my flesh" of its wanting its own way. 

That this battle, so to speak, often presents in the most base and seemingly inconsequential matters is almost laughable...for I would think of myself, in these many years confession of faith, that even as one who may feel he "should be" past certain things (and in my imaginations...always seem to be)...here I remain, on the simple battlefield...what "I want" vs...what is to be "for me"...my portion. The Lord's will.

It appears the Lord would have me living in reality...instead of my imagination. Does that sound odd, to any? I would prefer my battles (in my imagination) to be of great import, on battlefields of astounding eternal consequence (apparent to me)...instead of on the simply...small battlefield of "my own will" in any particular thing. I know it sounds of "rabbit trails"...but...here's the thing. When I see how absolutely ubiquitous and ever present is the "my will" in everything...from what I may see as smallest matters...to what I may (imagine) are the really "grand things"...I cannot help but appreciate there, and then, what a thing would have to take place for a  deliverance manifest...it couldn't be a "small thing".
Nothing less than the slaughter, made real in my sight, flesh, blood and gore, of the innocent son of God, would be sufficient...to save one such as I.
As I am flesh and blood...and of that flesh and blood thing whose cry is continually to Heaven to "spare me, make reality different...for my sake"...well, that thing has to be shown, as often as necessary, through that very real death...that all has already been changed "in my favor"...now "will one, such as I, receive it"?

And, in the receiving on my behalf, liberty and deliverance
are manifest. That is the way. His death...is mine.
And because his death...so His life.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 26, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> You will find your answer in Hebrews 9.



Thanks, if I'm reading this right the blood was for the proof of his death. It was needed to show us his sacrifice. There was no way for Jesus to do this with just a spiritual death, it had to be physical. 
Actually his physical death was twofold, his blood was needed for proof of his death and to sign or start the New Covenant.

Hebrews 9:16
In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it,

For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it.

17because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living.
18This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 26, 2016)

Hebrews 9:18
18Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood. 19For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20saying, "THIS IS THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHICH GOD COMMANDED YOU."

"For a covenant is valid only when men are dead,Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood."

If a covenant is only valid for when men are dead and death was needed for the 1st covenant to be inaugurated, then I'm assuming that death was Adams, ours, all of mankind. Correct?

I don't know why I didn't learn all of this stuff in Sunday School.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 26, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Thanks, if I'm reading this right the blood was for the proof of his death. It was needed to show us his sacrifice. There was no way to Jesus to do this with just a spiritual death, it had to be physical.
> 
> Hebrews 9:16
> In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it,
> ...




Dog gone it. I don't see a question mark! This is a neat fellowship!

Do you notice that everyone takes from our Lord's table in liberty? 

I spoon here with an old hand perhaps, and I am well fed. There are plates for everyone.

 Psalm 81

10 I am the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt: open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it.

15 16 He should have fed them also with the finest of the wheat: and with honey out of the rock should I have satisfied thee.

------------------------

 Nehemiah 8 

10 Then he said unto them, Go your way, eat the fat, and drink the sweet, and send portions unto them for whom nothing is prepared: for this day is holy unto our Lord: neither be ye sorry; for the joy of the Lord is your strength.

-------------

In my heart--- I see Abraham sitting with Melchisedec in the Lord's joy not unlike  as when Noah made an altar, and the Lord smelled a sweet savour....


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 26, 2016)

Israel said:


> This is what first came to me:
> 
> 
> Nothing less than the slaughter, made real in my sight, flesh, blood and gore, of the innocent son of God, would be sufficient...to save one such as I.
> ...



If I'm following you, since we are flesh and blood, we needed to see Jesus experience the gore and suffering of physical death. 
It wouldn't mean the same if Jesus came as a man and only died spiritually. We needed blood for proof.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 26, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> Dog gone it. I don't see a question mark! This is a neat fellowship!
> 
> Do you notice that everyone takes from our Lord's table in liberty?
> 
> ...



That must be a first! I'm feeling very content. Maybe it's Annie's Song by John Denver playing in the background.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 26, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Hebrews 9:18
> 18Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood. 19For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20saying, "THIS IS THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHICH GOD COMMANDED YOU."
> 
> "For a covenant is valid only when men are dead,Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood."
> ...



Another good place to look is Exodus 24. We know Adam was under Covenant, and a Covenant was made with Noah, yet the Covenant made with Moses is considered the first. I don't why this is.

 But for us to be heirs to the Covenant a death had to take place for us to receive the inheritence.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 26, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> That must be a first! I'm feeling very content. Maybe it's Annie's Song by John Denver playing in the background.



Don't deny from who you are seeking  It is not a song or what we say so much as it is...you being comfortable with Christ in you.... or with you and that sometimes that comfort is without words or question.

maybe...


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## RH Clark (Mar 27, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Another good place to look is Exodus 24. We know Adam was under Covenant, and a Covenant was made with Noah, yet the Covenant made with Moses is considered the first. I don't why this is.
> 
> But for us to be heirs to the Covenant a death had to take place for us to receive the inheritence.



Just my thought but I've always believed that God made covenant with Adam when he killed animals and made Adam and Eve skin garments. 

My speculation on the subject is that death is and always has been the penalty for sin. With Adam, God accepted the animal sacrifice just as he later did through the priesthood. Every animal sacrifice has only been a representation of the one perfect sacrifice to come in Jesus.


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## Israel (Mar 27, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> If I'm following you, since we are flesh and blood, we needed to see Jesus experience the gore and suffering of physical death.
> It wouldn't mean the same if Jesus came as a man and only died spiritually. We needed blood for proof.



It is, yes, in that sense...and yet, also more.
What "made of itself weak" in independence (through disobedience) is redeemed in very likeness of that "weak".
How that God, through Christ's weakness might display his power in Christ's total (and often admitted) dependence. So that, even in vessels of mere clay, subject to death, God might destroy the boaster (and boasting) of "that one"...so very clearly heard in this, Pilate's succinct proclamation: 

"Don't you know I have the authority to kill you or let you go...?" (as if Jesus is stupid, or unaware of what Pilate thinks of his authority)

But what does Jesus say here? Is he rebel? Does he say "I don't have to listen to you...mere man!" Hardly...his liberty, (indeed our liberty in deliverance) is not secured "by rebellion" (to man), but by reliance upon the higher, indeed, Highest. 

To man he may have appeared (and may still, even to some called Christian) as rebel...but he was everything rebel...is not. His total dependence upon His father, (now, our Father), though appearing as rebellion to man (as it always does appear) is really not what is taking place at all. Jesus didn't come to "protest" a thing...but to manifest the "overall" of a thing, incontrovertible, irresistible, ineffable in eternal power and foundation...against which, if anything (and everything) found 'against it', must fall, and in their falling declare "this man is overthrowing 'us'. 

The Kingdom of, the Reign, of God.

Men don't like to see their stuff...messed with...and so the only motive rebellious man can ascribe to one who "messes" with their stuff is the very motive by which their unrighteous stuff has been gathered...in rebellion. Do we see how "projection works"?

It is no small matter to see past the mere overthrowing to an ESTABLISHMENT, for if we always balk at seeing what IS, we will only be aware of our losing...our very present awareness of the "slipping away". Lack, and loss. But to see what is made ours in Christ...for this a hunger has been placed in us, (his very own...) that cannot be quenched, will not be quenched, and through its apprehension, like yeast hidden in three loaves...will rise in glory, and to the glory, of the One who has secured our inheritance.
And through Him, to our Father. His father. Our Father. Now.

(Hating the world was something I thought I knew, and thought I could "do"...and loathe rightly, I "surely thought" I did. But there was always a something that tripped me there to show my inadequate grasp of that instruction, as good as I may have believed I was "at it"...it was always my forced answer in a place, a place I cannot lie...that "forces" me to be true, that showed...something I couldn't bear...of myself in this question...it is the fundamental question that always eclipses all "lovest thou me?" 

Hate I was good at, (or so I thought) love not so much. But it is only love that has shown me, I am not even a good hater of the world, of anything, in fact, I'm "good" at nothing. At all, especially...anything.) And he is the only One who tells me "that fits". And, that's good enough...to be good...at nothing.)
I really...don't even know how to "believe"...but I know there is a place I cannot lie, even...me. I have seen it. And heard there the one who calls it home...


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## EverGreen1231 (Mar 28, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Well I know why he died physically because he was a human.
> Even if God's plan failed, old age one have got em. Not that God's plan could fail though. Even though Jesus was divine, he was human too.
> Same as Adam. When Adam sinned he died spiritually, not physically. He would have died physically any way.
> Death as defined by the wages of sin being spiritual death. Adam didn't die physically when he sinned, he died spiritually.
> ...



The wages of sin is death. If you never sin, do you die?

He dies so he could be raised up again.



Artfuldodger said:


> If I'm following you, since we are flesh and blood, we needed to see Jesus experience the gore and suffering of physical death.
> It wouldn't mean the same if Jesus came as a man and only died spiritually. We needed blood for proof.



Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins. Our need to see was never considered.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 28, 2016)

The wages of sin is death yet Adam didn't die physically when he sinned. 

Jesus died physically and yet lives. We die physically and stay in the ground, physically. 

The death of Jesus didn't give us the power to live forever physically as we know there are dead saints in the ground as we speak. When one is reborn it doesn't give him the attribute of everlasting physical life.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 28, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Just my thought but I've always believed that God made covenant with Adam when he killed animals and made Adam and Eve skin garments.
> 
> My speculation on the subject is that death is and always has been the penalty for sin. With Adam, God accepted the animal sacrifice just as he later did through the priesthood. Every animal sacrifice has only been a representation of the one perfect sacrifice to come in Jesus.



This is an interesting observation.

When Adam and Eve saw they were naked, which implies they had some sort of covering before the fall, they tried to sew fig leaves together for a covering. In other words they tried to cover themselves by making a covering themselves.  (Is this not a type of the Tower of Babel, maybe?)

In any case God made them a better covering with animal skin. The point is that God gave them this covering, because the covering they made for themselves was inadequate.

So is a covenant a covering? A covering made by God? The succeeding covenants better coverings of the former?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 28, 2016)

"The point is that God gave them this covering,"

Proof that God wasn't a Vegan!

Sorry, I couldn't resist.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 28, 2016)

"God made covenant with Adam when he killed animals and made Adam and Eve skin garments." 

Perhaps the first "allegory" or "type."

It just seems like blood would only represent physical death, making the wages of sin, physical death.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 28, 2016)

Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.

Sounds spiritual, how can we make God hear?


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## EverGreen1231 (Mar 28, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Isaiah 59:2
> But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.
> 
> Sounds spiritual, how can we make God hear?



How would you "make" God do anything?


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## EverGreen1231 (Mar 28, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> The wages of sin is death yet Adam didn't die physically when he sinned.
> 
> Jesus died physically and yet lives. We die physically and stay in the ground, physically.
> 
> The death of Jesus didn't give us the power to live forever physically as we know there are dead saints in the ground as we speak. When one is reborn it doesn't give him the attribute of everlasting physical life.



Sure it does. We'll be given a new body.

Adam died when he ate of the fruit. He eventually died physically as a result of sin.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 28, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> "God made covenant with Adam when he killed animals and made Adam and Eve skin garments."
> 
> Perhaps the first "allegory" or "type."
> 
> It just seems like blood would only represent physical death, making the wages of sin, physical death.



Now this could be the case for blood being the seal of covenants in the world: Somehow blood is required for a covenant in the world, except that now it is no longer required, there will be no more convents in the world post the cross and the resurrection...

Everything after this is heaven and a return to the original covering....?


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## RH Clark (Mar 28, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> Now this could be the case for blood being the seal of covenants in the world: Somehow blood is required for a covenant in the world, except that now it is no longer required, there will be no more convents in the world post the cross and the resurrection...
> 
> Everything after this is heaven and a return to the original covering....?



 I think God is the originator of all covenants, not that all covenants have anything to do with God but Satan isn't a creator only an imitator. Every covenant requires the shedding of blood and some the drinking of blood, which is only a corruption of the Christian covenant. In other words, they all learned it from God ,and all covenants are only a copy or corruption of the one true covenant.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 28, 2016)

Ecclesiastes 12:7
and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Proof we don't escape physical death. Unless we just sleep in the ground and aren't really physically dead. Even if physical death is temporary.


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## RH Clark (Mar 28, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> This is an interesting observation.
> 
> When Adam and Eve saw they were naked, which implies they had some sort of covering before the fall, they tried to sew fig leaves together for a covering. In other words they tried to cover themselves by making a covering themselves.  (Is this not a type of the Tower of Babel, maybe?)
> 
> ...



I believe that before the fall Adam and eve were covered in the garments of righteousness, just as the scriptures speak of the resurrected saints being clothed in white linen and also garments of righteousness. White linen always represents righteousness.

I speculate that God made covenant because of the killing of animals to clothe Adam and Eve. It seems to me that if clothing were the only objective God could have made garments from anything else.

God has always made covenants with man. The covenant He made with Job protected his life from Satan. God was always looking for a man who would make the covenant he wanted to make. God needed a man though who could believe in what he couldn't see. God needed a man of faith, and found that man in Abraham. God tested Abraham's ability to believe beyond what he could see when he told him to go to a land he didn't know. Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 28, 2016)

1 Corinthians 15:46	Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.


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## RH Clark (Mar 28, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Ecclesiastes 12:7
> and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
> 
> Proof we don't escape physical death. Unless we just sleep in the ground and aren't really physically dead. Even if physical death is temporary.



There is a generation who will escape physical death and be caught up alive. Death is the last enemy to be put under God's feet.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 28, 2016)

1 Corinthians 15:50
I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Maybe their blood drains out on the way to Heaven and becomes flesh & bones. You are right though, it it's a future event then they won't have to die physically.

Unless their physical bodies return to dust and then they go to Heaven in a spiritual body.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 28, 2016)

I still don't understand why God chose blood. The whole blood sacrifice is beyond my comprehension.

If the animal garments point to the blood of Jesus, then God chose blood as a sacrifice. He chose the blood of his Son.
It sounds circular.

If death is spiritual separation from God, then why couldn't Jesus just die a spiritual death?
Why did God require blood for any sacrifice even before the cross?


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## gordon 2 (Mar 28, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> I still don't understand why God chose blood. The whole blood sacrifice is beyond my comprehension.
> 
> If the animal garments point to the blood of Jesus, then God chose blood as a sacrifice. He chose the blood of his Son.
> It sounds circular.
> ...



Well blood is used in animism, to placate spirits, gods, demons, the spirits of ancestors and animals, good and evil spirits etc. But in this case, post the fall, it is God who initiated the practice by providing a covering of His choice for Adam and Eve. So it is not to appease, which is generally what animism is... I think...

Rather the shedding  of  blood here seems to be a condition  whereby charity can be provided for man on God's terms. In other words it is a sacrifice meant to benefit man-- via God's grace.

Later man will make altar offerings to God as a communion or prayer, which will involve the shedding of blood. As per Noah perhaps.

And later some of the offerings will get corrupted in becoming appeasement, whereby man seeks to control life to his benefit by controlling the will  of God, gods, spirits, ( spirits of ancestors and animals) good and evil spirits. etc...

So why blood? It is perhaps because God chose blood as the means of His covering into the world post the fall. The blood is not the covering, but it is essential so that the covering can be. God decides that, " Ok, sewed fig leaves which you make for yourselves, for your covering is not a go." and "It is I-am that will decide what your covering will be..."... maybe...simply because it is the right order.


Also, note  all the miracles regards food as recorded in scripture and the insistance that "real" food comes from God, and that from the breaking of bread( with Malchisedec due to mark righteousness), to temple offering as tite and food( justice) for the poor, spilling of blood is still a major part of our feasts...

... even if just a family outing to McDonald's or Wendys and others...  


Maybe...


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 28, 2016)

Abel's sacrifice was accepted while Cain's was rejected. I wonder if blood had any bearing on that?

To make a sacrifice one must give up something valuable. I can see why one's farm animal would be valuable.

In today's world time would make a good sacrifice. Alcohol would make a good sacrifice for an alcoholic.
Burning money would make a good sacrifice.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 28, 2016)

Blood sacrifices were practiced by various early civilizations of the world.

They forgot God on their journey through time and across land & sea yet they remembered blood sacrifice was needed to appease the God they forgot to worship.
Maybe that was one of those Satan imitation things.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 28, 2016)

If one was going to challenge the concept of our resurrections with that of the one Jesus had, wouldn't one have to challenge the whole blood sacrifice concept also?

In other words if Jesus died physically, only to be resurrected physically, as a means or example of our spiritual death & spiritual resurrection? Only as proof to the others he was "alive" then maybe.

I understand and I get spiritual death and spiritual resurrection. That's an easy concept. What I don't understand is if that is what it's all about then why did Jesus and/or us need a physical resurrection? 
I don't really like the concept of leaving God in Heaven to return to the earth. True we will return with Jesus but I'd rather stay in Heaven.

I'm having trouble seeing how I can do this with the importance of the blood of Jesus.(physical death/resurrection) I want to believe my body returns to dust and my spirit goes to be with God. I want to believe I've already had a resurrection. It's an easy concept to believe and I like it that way. It's the blood/physical death of Jesus that hinders that belief.

I will say that I believe once I get to Heaven as  either a spirit or physical body, I won't be leaving. Either I'll go as a spirit and my body will return to dust or I'll sleep in the ground with my dust until God turns   dust back into a new physical body. He's did that before you know, Adam, old testament saints.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 28, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> 1 Corinthians 15:46	Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.



That was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual, and after that back to what is natural.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 29, 2016)

That which is first is natural .The 1st Covenant was a natural Covenant. 

Afterword that which is spiritual. The new Covenant is spiritual.

Moses =law,  natural & death.
Christ = grace, spiritual & life.

Christ died a physical death to fulfill the prophecies and as a sign to anyone that didn't believe. He died a spiritual death as a substitutionary death. He defeated that death and curse of Adam, an ended it for His Covenant.

 The blood is the binding signature of His Covenant. It was necessary for the Covenant, and represented a death had taken place , that the heirs of His will receive their inheritence.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 29, 2016)

So Christ's blood was needed to end the natural which required a physical death which was needed to end that covenant. that's understandable.
He died physically to end the old natural physical covenant for me and you. 
Now we have a new covenant in which we are born again spiritually and receive life from this covenant/belief in Jesus.

Thanks Hobbs, that's the best explanation I've heard.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 30, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> That which is first is natural .The 1st Covenant was a natural Covenant.
> 
> Afterword that which is spiritual. The new Covenant is spiritual.
> 
> ...



So in the Christian covenant of grace, spiritual & life I assume that life here, for you means, spiritual life and not physical life?

And that in the Jewish covenant of law, natural  & death it suggests, in the light of the Christian covenant, spiritual death? That the Jewish covenant provided a winnowing of sorts at most, which is not now in effect in the Christian covenant.

I'm trying to get my mind comfortable with what seems implied here, and so far it's a basket case. Can you comfort my metal conniptions?

Or is this a way of saying that the Jewish covenant provides that that believers are spurred on due to its regard on death? or fear thereof.

On the other hand, the Christian covenant is spurred on due to it regard on death ( Jesus') but especially resurrection from death (life) post death which for now points to the heavenly? ( And for some a body resurrection some day.)

Do you insist that Jesus' resurrection points to spiritual resurrection and not at all physical resurrection? Or is it something else?

And in the Jewish covenant, spiritual life, in the here and now and in the afterlife, and ( body resurrection) was not available to people of faith? That when Jesus said to the people he healed, " You have much faith." Their's was a faith with the eye on death, spiritual and physical...?


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## hobbs27 (Mar 30, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> So in the Christian covenant of grace, spiritual & life I assume that life here, for you means, spiritual life and not physical life?
> 
> And that in the Jewish covenant of law, natural  & death it suggests, in the light of the Christian covenant, spiritual death?
> 
> ...



Throughout the old Covenant blood sacrifice of animals was used for the temporary remission of imputed sin.

It was very much like debt owed and only paying the interest on that debt. The debt owed came from the fall in the garden. In the day Adam took of the fruit, he was cast out of the garden, and in that garden is where Adam had access to God and the tree of life. By being denied that access is what I understand to be spiritual death. It happened that day as promised.

Jesus shed the blood of a perfect sacrifice that not only paid the interest on that debt but paid the debt in full. The OT saints may have received salvation through their faith in the Gospel to come, but the reward they had to wait...the balance was still due.

Christ's blood redeemed them, and us. This is one of the many reasons I believe the resurrection of the dead ones is in our past, and when we receive salvation today as an indwelling of the Spirit which is a NT only phenomenon. We are where Adam was. In communion with God having constant access to the tree of life..IE Jesus.

 We are fortunate to be living in the full victory of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. In an age with no end..Amen

Jesus did have a physical resurrection. He's the only one that was promised this.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 30, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Throughout the old Covenant blood sacrifice of animals was used for the temporary remission of imputed sin.
> 
> It was very much like debt owed and only paying the interest on that debt. The debt owed came from the fall in the garden. In the day Adam took of the fruit, he was cast out of the garden, and in that garden is where Adam had access to God and the tree of life. By being denied that access is what I understand to be spiritual death. It happened that day as promised.
> 
> ...



Thanks...


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## Rich M (Mar 30, 2016)

Is the first covenant that is mentioned when Moses and the elders of Israel had the torch/fire pot walking among them and the cut up animals?  The deal where Israel said they'd follow God's rules...

They didn't follow God's rules so that covenant had to be abolished and God didn't want to kill them, so He killed Himself instead.

Anyway, Christ/God had to die physically to change the covenant and extend the forgiveness for sins to all who would believe.  If it was done another way, God would have been a liar due to covenants being good as long as those who make them live.  

If we didn't know about the referenced covenant NOT being with Adam, what else are we missing?  That's why we need to ask for wisdom and understanding...and work a lot harder at this than we have been - to myself more than anyone else.

I don't see a formal covenant as being made with Adam as there was no blood until after sin had already been committed.  God was punishing him then.  The other 5 major covenants (Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Christ) were made with blood.

Sorry but this stuff just isn't covered in Sunday School. I wish it had been. 

The Old Testament is supposed to be dead - well, except for Psalms, Proverbs, the Prophecies, and the 10 Commandments.  LOL!  Many answers are found and clarified by using the OT and NT together.


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## RH Clark (Mar 30, 2016)

Rich M said:


> Is the first covenant that is mentioned when Moses and the elders of Israel had the torch/fire pot walking among them and the cut up animals?  The deal where Israel said they'd follow God's rules...
> 
> They didn't follow God's rules so that covenant had to be abolished and God didn't want to kill them, so He killed Himself instead.
> 
> ...



They didn't follow God's rules so that covenant had to be abolished and God didn't want to kill them, so He killed Himself instead.


In the first covenant, the law was never given as a means to righteousness. In other words God never gave the law so men could follow it and be righteous before him. The law was given to increase the knowledge of sin. In other words so that men could see their sinfulness and know that they couldn't achieve righteousness by following the rules. God knew they couldn't keep the law, so he set up the priesthood and the ability to make sacrifices to cover sins. All the sacrifices were only a way to make Israel recognize the need for a sin sacrifice and thus recognize the perfect sacrifice of Jesus. All sacrifices were only substitutionary until the true sacrifice for sin was made by Jesus.

I see that old covenant as more of a shadow of the new covenant rather than a completely separate and different covenant. The old covenant was only the representation of the new. The fact that the law of the old wasn't followed had no bering on the need for the new. The law was never given to follow in the first place.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 30, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> They didn't follow God's rules so that covenant had to be abolished and God didn't want to kill them, so He killed Himself instead.
> 
> 
> In the first covenant, the law was never given as a means to righteousness. In other words God never gave the law so men could follow it and be righteous before him. The law was given to increase the knowledge of sin. In other words so that men could see their sinfulness and know that they couldn't achieve righteousness by following the rules. God knew they couldn't keep the law, so he set up the priesthood and the ability to make sacrifices to cover sins. All the sacrifices were only a way to make Israel recognize the need for a sin sacrifice and thus recognize the perfect sacrifice of Jesus. All sacrifices were only substitutionary until the true sacrifice for sin was made by Jesus.
> ...



Your response makes it appear that God created sin but as I recall, you said he didn't. Your response also makes it sound like God predestined the whole old testament as a shadow of the new. 

Something along the lines of God knew we couldn't help but sin. The Law was given to show us we were sinners, to reveal our sins to us. The Law was never given to be followed. God never wanted man to follow his commandments. How could God predestine the Law if he didn't predestine sin?
Besides the purpose of revealing sin, the Law and the whole time period was predestined and orchestrated by God as a shadow of Jesus and a New Testament. The Word was already with God, why?

If God knew that man couldn't follow the Law and if it was only given to show us sin. Wouldn't it stand to reason that A)God is the creator of sin and B) God created Adam to sin? Considering that God didn't give us the Law to follow and orchestrated the Old Testament as a shadow, why should we assume he didn't start his orchestration earlier with Adam? The Word was already with God so the plan was laid.
It would be strange to assume Adam had free will but after that God took over and made a whole long orchestrated time period of shadows.
When did this predestined "shadow" period begin?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 30, 2016)

Galatians 3:17-
17What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise. 19Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

Ephesians 2:12
remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

What's the connection?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 30, 2016)

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

Wherefore why then serveth the law?.... If this be the case, might an objector say, why was the law given?

It was added because of transgressions; four hundred and thirty years after the covenant made with Abraham; it did not succeed it, nor take the place of it, and so make it null and void; but was over and above added unto it, for the sake of restraining transgressions;


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 30, 2016)

Romans 9:3-5
3For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen

                                                                                                                Romans 11:1-2
1I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

Jeremiah 31:31-33
31"Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 30, 2016)

What I'm getting at is; if the Law was to reveal to us "Gentiles" sin, why Ephesians 2:12?

remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Why give a covenant to somebody else to show me I'm a sinner? 

Jeremiah 11:6
The LORD said to me, "Proclaim all these words in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem: 'Listen to the terms of this covenant and follow them.

Romans 2:13
For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Why say stuff like this if the Law was only to point to Christ and to show that Gentiles were strangers to the promise?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 30, 2016)

Romans 2:13-18
13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

If the Law was never given so man could follow it, why were doers of the Law justified? 

And the Gentiles;
Ephesians 2:12
remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Somehow get judged for a Law they were never a part of and a Law that was only provided to them as a shadow for a covenant they were strangers to and without the God who provided the promise.

"Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel."


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 30, 2016)

Concerning the Law;

Romans 3:30
30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. 31Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Romans 4:4-8
4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7"BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. 8"BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."

Faith doesn't nullify the Law, it fulfills it. Christ doesn't nullify the Law, he becomes it. Christ didn't abolish the Law he fulfilled it.
He became the Law.


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## RH Clark (Mar 30, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Your response makes it appear that God created sin but as I recall, you said he didn't. Your response also makes it sound like God predestined the whole old testament as a shadow of the new.
> 
> Something along the lines of God knew we couldn't help but sin. The Law was given to show us we were sinners, to reveal our sins to us. The Law was never given to be followed. God never wanted man to follow his commandments. How could God predestine the Law if he didn't predestine sin?
> Besides the purpose of revealing sin, the Law and the whole time period was predestined and orchestrated by God as a shadow of Jesus and a New Testament. The Word was already with God, why?
> ...



You know, sometimes it is really hard to understand how your brain works. I simply don't understand how you can come to such conclusions. If I give you a list and tell you this is what you have to do to be perfect, but you can't do all the list, how in the world is that my fault? Suppose I only gave you the list to show you that you aren't perfect. That's what the law was. In no way does it even hint that God created sin, that's just ridiculous.

 The law was a perfect picture of complete righteousness. Paul calls it just and holy. It was however so perfect that if anyone was honest with themselves they could see that they didn't keep it. That's why that if you break any part of the law ,you were guilty of all of it. God didn't want anyone thinking they were OK because they kept part of the law. The law was to show men that they couldn't save themselves by being good enough.


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## RH Clark (Mar 30, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Concerning the Law;
> 
> Romans 3:30
> 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. 31Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
> ...



No, Christ didn't become the law. Christ fulfilled the law. Jesus is the only man ever to keep the entire law and never sin. As such he fulfilled the law for all who will accept him. 

You have to understand that Jesus is your substitute in every way. Even more so than that, salvation makes us one with Christ. Why do you think we are called both the body and bride of Christ? It's all about being one with him. Christ both kept all the law for us and also paid the price for not keeping all the law. In Christ you have both walked perfectly according to every righteous requirement of the law, and you have paid the price required for every vile sin you ever committed.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 31, 2016)

When I think of Jesus as the accomplishment of the law, I  personally think of the prophetic history of the law especially concerning Emmanuel.

This stands me in our kingdom today and in faith to all the prophecy within the law that goes beyond our kingdom.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 31, 2016)

If the Law had a purpose then so did sin. If the Law was to show us we couldn't keep it, then sin had that same purpose. It was to show us we all needed Jesus. Without sin, there would be no Law. Without sin, there would be no Jesus.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 31, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> If the Law had a purpose then so did sin. If the Law was to show us we couldn't keep it, then sin had that same purpose. It was to show us we all needed Jesus. Without sin, there would be no Law. Without sin, there would be no Jesus.




Romans 5:13 says otherwise. That sin was in the world before the law.


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## RH Clark (Mar 31, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> If the Law had a purpose then so did sin. If the Law was to show us we couldn't keep it, then sin had that same purpose. It was to show us we all needed Jesus. Without sin, there would be no Law. Without sin, there would be no Jesus.



No, Jesus always has been and always will be. To make your supposition, you have to deny the trinity. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one and have always been.

look at these scriptures.
Romans 3:19-21King James Version (KJV)
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;


The law entered in to show all men that they were guilty before God. The law brought the knowledge of sin, but let us look at Abraham before the law.

Romans 4:1-5King James Version (KJV)
4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Abraham did not need the law. His faith in God made him righteous. In fact that is the only way anyone has ever been or ever will be righteous. The law was only necessary because of pride.
The law was given in response to the people boastfully saying that they didn't want to speak to God face to face, but only wanted God to tell them whatever they needed to do and they were well able to do anything God asked of them. They were looking to themselves and not to God. It was necessary to show them that they couldn't do anything without God, that they were not able. All this is brought out much more in the original language than in the KJV.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 31, 2016)

I never said that sin didn't become before the Law. All I said was that without sin, there would be no Law.
Without sin, there would be no Law to show us or shadow Jesus.

I'll rephrase; without sin, the Word wouldn't have became a man.
Even though the Word was with God before sin, the plan was already in place.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 31, 2016)

Romans 5:13
To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone's account where there is no law.

Can we assume it was charged to some when the Law came?

Ephesians 2:12
remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

When the Law did come, whose sin was charged against their account?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 31, 2016)

"The law entered in to show all men that they were guilty before God. The law brought the knowledge of sin, but let us look at Abraham before the law."

The law didn't go to all men. The Law only went to show the Jews  their sin. The Law never provide anyone salvation.
The Gentile Native Americans were strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 31, 2016)

The important thing is, Jesus fulfilled the Law, for the Jews and the Gentiles. Through salvation, we can all be joint heirs of the promise. We can all be a part of the tree. The natural branches and the grafted in branches. Back when Gentiles were blessed for blessing Israel. Before Christ was born a human Jew.

Now what we are discussing  and perhaps disagreeing with is how it all went down when the Gentiles were strangers to the covenants(plural) of promise, having no hope, and without God. Before the grafting was allowed. Before Israel's blindness allowed the fullness of the Gentiles to come in.

Whose sin did the Law show them to be accountable?


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## hobbs27 (Mar 31, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> The important thing is, Jesus fulfilled the Law, for the Jews and the Gentiles. Through salvation, we can all be joint heirs of the promise. We can all be a part of the tree. The natural branches and the grafted in branches. Back when Gentiles were blessed for blessing Israel. Before Christ was born a human Jew.
> 
> Now what we are discussing  and perhaps disagreeing with is how it all went down when the Gentiles were strangers to the covenants(plural) of promise, having no hope, and without God. Before the grafting was allowed. Before Israel's blindness allowed the fullness of the Gentiles to come in.
> 
> Whose sin did the Law show them to be accountable?



At least we can all agree that heaven and earth have surely passed away per Matthew 5:18!For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 31, 2016)

Good point!


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## gordon 2 (Mar 31, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> If the Law had a purpose then so did sin. If the Law was to show us we couldn't keep it, then sin had that same purpose. It was to show us we all needed Jesus. Without sin, there would be no Law. Without sin, there would be no Jesus.



If sin has a purpose it is to cause wrath, in you, in your relatives, in your community, in the nation, in the world.


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## RH Clark (Mar 31, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> At least we can all agree that heaven and earth have surely passed away per Matthew 5:18!For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.



I think the key is "till all be fulfilled". Jesus surly fulfilled all the law.


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## RH Clark (Mar 31, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> If sin has a purpose it is to cause wrath, in you, in your relatives, in your community, in the nation, in the world.



I look at sin as more like a disease, a rebellion, a corruption, than a purpose.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 31, 2016)

"until all is fulfilled"

“until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in"

Revelation 10:7
but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.

"Mystery of God fulfilled"


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## hobbs27 (Mar 31, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> I think the key is "till all be fulfilled". Jesus surly fulfilled all the law.



Read that verse again slowly.


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## RH Clark (Mar 31, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Read that verse again slowly.



Just say what you mean. It's ok if we disagree. I would say that according to Hebrews 8, that old covenant of the law is passed away. It is passed away because Jesus fulfilled all the righteous requirements of the law.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 31, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Just say what you mean. It's ok if we disagree. I would say that according to Hebrews 8, that old covenant of the law is passed away. It is passed away because Jesus fulfilled all the righteous requirements of the law.


OK. Matthew 5:17-18 makes it impossible for any ..even the smallest letter of the law to pass till heaven and earth pass away and all is fulfilled.
 All is fulfilled. Heaven and earth have passed away.


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## RH Clark (Mar 31, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> OK. Matthew 5:17-18 makes it impossible for any ..even the smallest letter of the law to pass till heaven and earth paas away and all is fulfilled.
> All is fulfilled. Heaven and earth have passed away.



That's not the way I see it being said. Look particularly at the last part of verse 17, "I am not come to destroy but to fulfill." Then Jesus says that heaven and earth will pass before one jot or tittle pass " till all be fulfilled." 

The last part of verse 17 is showing that what Jesus is saying is that it would be easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one jot or tittle to pass before he fulfills the law.

Jesus clearly says that he came to fulfill the law. he isn't saying that the law will be fulfilled when heaven and earth pass. That doesn't even make any sense. Jesus fulfilled the law on the cross. Jesus both never sinned, living up to the law, and he also paid the lawful price for sinning. In this manner Jesus fulfilled the law which is exactly what he said he had come to do.




If you hold that the law will stand until both heaven and earth pass, then how do you explain Hebrews 8 that clearly is telling us that the old covenant of law is being replaced by the new covenant of faith?


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## hobbs27 (Mar 31, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> That's not the way I see it being said. Look particularly at the last part of verse 17, "I am not come to destroy but to fulfill." Then Jesus says that heaven and earth will pass before one jot or tittle pass " till all be fulfilled."
> 
> The last part of verse 17 is showing that what Jesus is saying is that it would be easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one jot or tittle to pass before he fulfills the law.
> 
> ...



According to Josephus the Jews viewed the Temple as the heaven and earth and sea. The heaven was the inner chamber or most holy place. The earth was outside the inner chamber where the people would await the high priest. The sea was a pool the priest would wash and purify before entry into the most holy place.

 Paul said He worshipped in the Temple just as his father's has, he still practiced the law well after the cross. He even argued to the Jewish  council that the Gentiles he was bringing in should not be circumcised because that didn't pertain to them, yet Timothy having a Jewish mother Paul circumcised.

 The Temple, IE heaven and earth passed away in 70 ad. Ending the law in its entirety and bringing in grace in its entirety. From Jesus ministry in 30ad to His return in 70 ad for 40 years the two covenants stood.

 Jesus said He would return in that first century generation. He many standing there would not taste death till they saw Him coming.

 The end was always about the end of the old Covenant not the church, it's an age without end.


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## RH Clark (Mar 31, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> According to Josephus the Jews viewed the Temple as the heaven and earth and sea. The heaven was the inner chamber or most holy place. The earth was outside the inner chamber where the people would await the high priest. The sea was a pool the priest would wash and purify before entry into the most holy place.
> 
> Paul said He worshipped in the Temple just as his father's has, he still practiced the law well after the cross. He even argued to the Jewish  council that the Gentiles he was bringing in should not be circumcised because that didn't pertain to them, yet Timothy having a Jewish mother Paul circumcised.
> 
> ...



Well, you're way out there into doctrine I've never even heard of. I don't know where it came from. What do you mean by "his return in 70 ad"? From what scriptures do you take that?


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## hobbs27 (Mar 31, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Well, you're way out there into doctrine I've never even heard of. I don't know where it came from. What do you mean by "his return in 70 ad"? From what scriptures do you take that?



Yes, way out there with what is taught in most western churches but I think I'm right there with what the prophets , Jesus, and the Apostles taught. Here's a few time statement verses: 

 1. "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." (Matt. 3:2) 

2. "Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?" (Matt. 3:7) 

3. "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees." (Matt. 3:10) 

4. "His winnowing fork is in His hand." (Matt. 3:12) 

5. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 4:17) 

6. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 10:7) 

7. "You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23) 

8. "....the age about to come." (Matt. 12:32) 

9. "The Son of Man is about to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds." (Matt. 16:27) 

10. "There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matt. 16:28; cf. Mk. 9:1; Lk. 9:27) 

11. "'When the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?' '....He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers, who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons.' '....Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it.' ....When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them." (Matt. 21:40-41,43,45) 

12. "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Matt. 24:34) 

13. "From now on, you [Caiaphas, the chief priests, the scribes, the elders, the whole Sanhedrin] shall be seeing the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Matt. 26:64; Mk. 14:62; Lk. 22:69) 

14. "The kingdom of God is at hand." (Mk. 1:15) 

15. "What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vine-growers, and will give the vineyard to others. ....They [the chief priests, scribes and elders] understood that He spoke the parable against them." (Mk. 12:9,12) 

16. "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place.” (Mk. 13:30) 

17. “Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?” (Lk. 3:7) 

18. “The axe is already laid at the root of the trees. " (Lk. 3:9) 

19. "His winnowing fork is in His hand…." (Lk. 3:17) 

20. “The kingdom of God has come near to you.” (Lk. 10:9) 

21. “The kingdom of God has come near.” (Lk. 10:11) 

22. “What, therefore, will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and destroy these vine-growers and will give the vineyard to others." …The scribes and the chief priests …understood that He spoke this parable against them.” (Lk. 20:15-16,19) 

23. “These are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled.” (Lk. 21:22) 

24. "This generation will not pass away until all things take place.” (Lk. 21:32) 

25. "Daughters of Jerusalem, stop weeping for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For behold, the days are coming when they will say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bore, and the breasts that never nursed.' Then they will begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us,' and to the hills, 'Cover us.'” (Lk. 23:28-30; Compare Rev. 6:14-17) 

26. "We were hoping that He was the One who is about to redeem Israel.” (Lk. 24:21) 

27. "I will come to you. …In that Day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.' …'Lord, what then has happened that You are about to disclose Yourself to us, and not to the world?'" (Jn. 14:18,20,22) 

28. "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?" (Jn. 21:22) 

29. “This is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: 'And it shall be in the last days…'” (Acts 2:16-17) 

30. “He has fixed a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness…” (Acts 17:31) 

31. “There is about to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.” (Acts 24:15) 

32. “As he was discussing righteousness, self-control and the judgment about to come…" (Acts 24:25) 

33. “Not for [Abraham's] sake only was it written, that [faith] was reckoned to him [as righteousness], but for our sake also, to whom it is about to be reckoned.” (Rom. 4:23-24) 

34. “If you are living according to the flesh, you are about to die.” (Rom. 8:13)

35. “I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is about to be revealed to us.” (Rom. 8:18) 

36. "It is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. The night is almost gone, and the day is at hand." (Rom. 13:11-12) 

37. “The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.” (Rom. 16:20) 

38. “The time has been shortened.” (I Cor. 7:29) 

39. “The form of this world is passing away.” (I Cor. 7:31) 

40. “Now these things …were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.” (I Cor. 10:11) 

41. “We shall not all fall sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.” (I Cor. 15:51-52) 

42. "Maranatha!" [The Lord comes!] (I Cor. 16:22) 

43. "...not only in this age, but also in the one about to come.” (Eph. 1:21) 

44. “The Lord is near.” (Phil. 4:5) 

45. "The gospel …was proclaimed in all creation under heaven." (Col. 1:23; Compare Matt. 24:14; Rom. 10:18; 16:26; Col. 1:5-6; II Tim. 4:17; Rev. 14:6-7; cf. I Clement 5,7) 

46. “…things which are a shadow of what is about to come.” (Col. 2:16-17) 

47. “…we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord… …We who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds… …You, brethren, are not in darkness, that the Day should overtake you like a thief.” (I Thess. 4:15,17; 5:4) 

48. “May your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (I Thess. 5:23) 

49. “It is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire.” (II Thess. 1:6-7)  [published by PreteristArchive.com]

50. “Godliness …holds promise for the present life and that which is about to come.” (I Tim. 4:8) 

51. “I charge you …that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (I Tim. 6:14) 

52. “…storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for that which is about to come, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.” (I Tim. 6:19) 

53. “In the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self… …Avoid these men. For of these are those who enter into households and captivate weak women… …These also oppose the truth… …But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all…” (II Tim. 3:1-2,5-6,8-9) 

54. “I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is about to judge the living and the dead…” (II Tim. 4:1)

55. “God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son.” (Heb. 1:1-2) 

56. “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who are about to inherit salvation?” (Heb. 1:14) 

57. “He did not subject to angels the world about to come.” (Heb. 2:5) 

58. “…and have tasted …the powers of the age about to come.” (Heb. 6:5) 

59. "For ground that drinks the rain which often falls upon it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near a curse, and it's end is for burning.” (Heb. 6:7-8) 

60. “When He said, 'A new covenant,' He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.” (Heb. 8:13) 

61. “The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way of the [heavenly] Holy Places has not yet been revealed, while the outer tabernacle is still standing, which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.” (Heb. 9:8-10; Compare Gal. 4:19; Eph. 2:21-22; 3:17; 4:13) 

62. “But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things about to come…” (Heb. 9:11) 

63. “Now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin.” (Heb. 9:26) 

64. “For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things about to come…” (Heb. 10:1) 

65. “…as you see the Day drawing near.” (Heb. 10:25) 

66. “…the fury of a fire which is about to consume the adversaries.” (Heb. 10:27) 

67. “For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay.” (Heb. 10:37) 

68. “For here we do not have a lasting city, but we are seeking the one that is about to come.” (Heb. 13:14) 

69. "Speak and so act, as those who are about to be judged by the law of liberty." (Jms. 2:12) 

70. “Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. …It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure!” (Jms. 5:1,3) 

71. “Be patient, therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord.” (Jms. 5:7) 

72. “You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.” (Jms. 5:8) 

73. “…salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” (I Peter 1:6) 

74. “He …has appeared in these last times for the sake of you.” (I Peter 1:20) 

75. “They shall give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.” (I Peter 4:5) 

76. “The end of all things is at hand; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.” (I Peter 4:7) 

77. "For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God.” (I Peter 4:17) 

78. “…as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is about to be revealed.” (I Peter 5:1) 

79. “We have the prophetic word …which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the Day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.” (II Peter 1:19) 

80. “Their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.” (II Peter 2:3) 

81. “In the last days mockers will come. …For this they willingly are ignorant of…” (I Peter 3:3,5) 

82. “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God.” (II Peter 3:10-12) 

83. “The darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.” (I Jn. 2:8) 

84. “The world is passing away, and its desires.” (I Jn. 2:17) 

85. “It is the last hour.” (I Jn. 2:18) 

86. “Even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour.” (I Jn. 2:18; Compare Matt. 24:23-34) 

87. “This is that of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.” (I Jn. 4:3; Compare II Thess. 2:7) 

88. “For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation. …About these also Enoch …prophesied, saying, 'Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly…'” (Jude 1:4,14-15) 

89. “But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, that they were saying to you, 'In the last time there shall be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts.' These are the ones who cause divisions…” (Jude 1:17-19) 

90. “…to show to His bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place.” (Rev. 1:1) 

91. “The time is near.” (Rev. 1:3) 

92. “Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come.” (Rev. 2:25) 

93. “I also will keep you from the hour of testing which is about to come upon the whole world.” (Rev. 3:10) 

94. “I am coming quickly.” (Rev. 3:11) 

95. “And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is about to rule all the nations with a rod of iron.” (Rev. 12:5) 

96. "And in her [the Great City Babylon] was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth." (Rev. 18:24; Compare Matt. 23:35-36; Lk. 11:50-51) 

97. “…to show to His bond-servants the things which must shortly take place.” (Rev. 22:6) 

98. "Behold, I am coming quickly. " (Rev. 22:7) 

99. "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near." (Rev. 22:10; Compare Dan. 8:26) 

100. "Behold, I am coming quickly.” (Rev. 22:12) 

101. "Yes, I am coming quickly." (Rev. 22:20)


And since you have never heard of what happened in 70ad here's just a little from Josephus, there's tons more as he was an eyewitness to the event.

Josephus (A.D. 75) - Jewish Historian
"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).

“A supernatural apparition was seen, too amazing to be believed. What I am now to relate would, I imagine, be dismissed as imaginary, had this not been vouched for by eyewitnesses, then followed by subsequent disasters that deserved to be thus signalized. For before sunset chariots were seen in the air over the whole country, and armed battalions speeding through the clouds and encircling the cities.”  (rendered in Chilton)

Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian
"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. Few people placed a sinister interpretation upon this. The majority were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world." (Histories, Book 5, v. 13).


Also...Here's the very good explanation of the beast in Revelation and how Revelation was about the end of the old covenant.

And..just a little verse I love about the church age.

Ephesians 3:20-21 20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 31, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> I look at sin as more like a disease, a rebellion, a corruption, than a purpose.



Wasn't this disease needed for God to give the Law as a shadow of Jesus? Thereby the "purpose" of sending is Son?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 31, 2016)

This one caught my eye on that list;

51. “I charge you …that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (I Tim. 6:14)

Is that referring to Jesus since Jesus fulfilled the Law? What about these verses? If all haven't been fulfilled? Who are these law keeping New Testament verses for, believers before Christ returns?

Romans 2:12 - For as many as have sinned without Law will also perish without Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law will be judged by the Law 13 (for not the hearers of the Law [are] just in the sight of Yahweh, but the doers of the Law will be justified; 

Romans 3:31 - Do we then make void the Law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Romans 2:14-16
14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Maybe Jesus became the Law, the Law of Liberty.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 31, 2016)

O my! 

I think that a great part of the elements of our Savoir in the New Testament gospels come from  Isaiah's prophecy ( Chapter 7, 8, 9 and 11 especially). And that it is forgotten by Preterists an important element of this prophecy, which is this coming around, when all evil will be purged, which is a task ongoing in the here and now :




Isaiah 43:16-21King James Version (KJV)

16 Thus saith the Lord, which maketh a way in the sea, and a path in the mighty waters;

17 Which bringeth forth the chariot and horse, the army and the power; they shall lie down together, they shall not rise: they are extinct, they are quenched as tow.

18 Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old.

19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.

20 The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen.

21 This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise.



-------------------

This is hardly formed in the hearts and minds of Christians today, let alone the  lost.... and it speaks of the earth, not heaven.

-----------------
 Isaiah 66-23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 31, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> If sin has a purpose it is to cause wrath, in you, in your relatives, in your community, in the nation, in the world.



Romans 2:5
5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:…

How is this possible if Jesus fulfilled the Law?

Romans 2:3
So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment?

What same things?

Romans 2:8
8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

Isn't Jesus the "truth?"

9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,…
10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

I get confused when I read  verses about good deeds, rewards, bad deeds, and punishment.
If Christ fulfilled the Law, why all the talk of keeping the Law? The Law of Liberty?

Romans 12:12-
12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them.16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

This has been used in how God offers salvation to the far away Gentiles. Wouldn't that be salvation based on Law keeping?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 31, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> O my!
> 
> I think that a great part of the elements of our Savoir in the New Testament gospels come from  Isaiah's prophecy ( Chapter 7, 8, 9 and 11 especially). And that it is forgotten by Preterists an important element of this prophecy, which is this coming around, when all evil will be purged, which is a task ongoing in the here and now :
> 
> ...



And what of the Law until that time? That's a lot of the "all" that hasn't been fulfilled?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 31, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> O my!
> 
> I think that a great part of the elements of our Savoir in the New Testament gospels come from  Isaiah's prophecy ( Chapter 7, 8, 9 and 11 especially). And that it is forgotten by Preterists an important element of this prophecy, which is this coming around, when all evil will be purged, which is a task ongoing in the here and now :
> 
> ...



This prophesy you are presenting, from God through Isaiah, is it God looking ahead at our free will choices or is it God who will orchestrate these events and will show his praise on the people he formed for himself?


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## RH Clark (Mar 31, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Wasn't this disease needed for God to give the Law as a shadow of Jesus? Thereby the "purpose" of sending is Son?



That's like saying you needed the disease to receive the cure, therefore the disease is necessary. Isn't it better to never have the disease to start with?


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## gordon 2 (Mar 31, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 2:5
> 5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:…
> 
> How is this possible if Jesus fulfilled the Law?
> ...



Maybe it is because the winnowing wind is still in effect, but now not only for the Jews, but the gentiles and all the peoples of the world as well. And in this, in Jesus, the law is being fulfilled-- Jews and Gentiles, both through Jesus, are now being called to be God's chosen people. The Jews were called through Moses. They are called again through Jesus and this time so are the gentiles...

What has happened regards Jesus is exactly what Isaiah prophesied, and if prophesy concerning the Savoir comes from the law or the covenant of the law then Jesus is the fulfillment of that law, or its prophecy due faith...

Maybe.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 31, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> O my!
> 
> I think that a great part of the elements of our Savoir in the New Testament gospels come from  Isaiah's prophecy ( Chapter 7, 8, 9 and 11 especially). And that it is forgotten by Preterists an important element of this prophecy, which is this coming around, when all evil will be purged, which is a task ongoing.



Perhaps the dominionist in which I love BTW, has forgotten that even outside the gates there will always be evil.

Revelation 22:
The Final Message
10 And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. 11 Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.”

12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man [g]according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 31, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> That's like saying you needed the disease to receive the cure, therefore the disease is necessary. Isn't it better to never have the disease to start with?



Yes under my plan there would have never been any sin or a need for the Law to shadow a salvation source.
Fortunately for me, I didn't get to make a plan for my purpose.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 31, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Perhaps the dominionist in which I love BTW, has forgotten that even outside the gates there will always be evil.
> 
> Revelation 22:
> The Final Message
> ...



If salvation is from grace why are men rewarded for works?

John 5:28-29
"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

When that resurrection happened, why did the workers of good deeds get everlasting life and the doers of evil deeds judgement?
If salvation has never been based on deeds, why so much on good will inherit this and evil will inherit that?
Why don't the verses say "believers" will resurrect first to everlasting life and unbelievers to a resurrection of judgement?
Am I the only one who has ever noticed this? Even with salvation through grace there is still a lot of scripture about good and evil.

Proverbs 10:16
The wages of the righteous is life, but the earnings of the wicked are sin and death.

Ezekiel 18:24
"But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.

From the Old Testament when the Law was just to show us we were sinners. When salvation was never based on works. When the Law was only a shadow of Jesus.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 31, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> This prophesy you are presenting, from God through Isaiah, is it God looking ahead at our free will choices or is it God who will orchestrate these events and will show his praise on the people he formed for himself?




My dear brother, your words are loaded. 

The way I understand is that God is in the process of redeeming His people. He calls them his chosen people because they chose to be formed and informed by Him, Him and only Him by free will. As opposed to following Lucifer. 

But hey. I am in poverty when it comes to the science of theology.  Yet it seems to me when I read Isaiah that God is winnowing the grain from the chaff not because grain comes in naturally in a world unnatural, but because people declare knowingly  that they are grain or chaff.

People are without excuse. They champion the poor, the sick and the prisoners--even that they themselves are in worldly terms rich. 

I have come to believe that  only spiritually poor people can be friends with God. People have to chose to be though by God--- even if they have read scripture many times and are fervent in worship. When you know everything, nothing can come in. When your belly is satisfied, no new food is hoped for.

So I believe that God chooses His order of ministry, and man chooses to be though and to act on it and to hope. We choose to have a trusting faith... or we don't.

This does not mean that the faithful do not suffer for the winnowing. We do-- and not unlike Christ suffered. And so the present rain fall on you and I and everyone else. Yet in God we trust that there will be a finer day as is prophesied.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 31, 2016)

Isaiah 33:14
 Sinners in Zion are terrified; Trembling has seized the godless "Who among us can live with the consuming fire? Who among us can live with continual burning?"

Well since we are all over the place in this thread(and that's cool) isn't this proof that one dies in the consuming fire? Physical and/or
spiritual death.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 31, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Isaiah 33:14
> Sinners in Zion are terrified; Trembling has seized the godless "Who among us can live with the consuming fire? Who among us can live with continual burning?"
> 
> Well since we are all over the place in this thread(and that's cool) isn't this proof that one dies in the consuming fire? Physical and/or
> spiritual death.




Hey. I'm not all over the place. 

To stand in the consuming fire whereby evil is burned off, means to tarry in faith for Gordo. We have to "live" in the world as it is, which is according to God's own time. So the people of faith must live with continual burning...


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## gordon 2 (Mar 31, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Perhaps the dominionist in which I love BTW, has forgotten that even outside the gates there will always be evil.
> 
> Revelation 22:
> The Final Message
> ...



LOL...


 Outside the walls you say? What part of "tow" or "quenched wick" or "burned out wick" don't you understand? 

17 Which bringeth forth the chariot and horse, the army and the power; they shall lie down together, they shall not rise: they are extinct, they are quenched as tow.

It's a new Exodus.....

19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 31, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> Hey. I'm not all over the place.
> 
> To stand in the consuming fire whereby evil is burned off, means to tarry in faith for Gordo. We have to "live" in the world as it is, which is according to God's own time. So the people of faith must live with continual burning...



Sorry, wrong fire. But wasn't that fire a shadow of He!!'s fire? Wasn't that destruction of Zion a shadow of the destruction in Isaiah 43:16-21?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 31, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Perhaps the dominionist in which I love BTW, has forgotten that even outside the gates there will always be evil.
> 
> Revelation 22:
> The Final Message
> ...



In 70AD when all was fulfilled the Law was also fulfilled.
Is this when God stopped rewarding and punishing people for their deeds and started rewarding and punishing based on people being believers and non-believers? 

Where are the gates of Zion now? Where people outside are dogs?


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## hobbs27 (Apr 1, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> LOL...
> 
> 
> Outside the walls you say? What part of "tow" or "quenched wick" or "burned out wick" don't you understand?
> ...



Ironic isn't it, that there is now no Jew nor Greek, that Jesus ministry led the Jew out of bondage of the Law and into a New Kingdom, an everlasting Kingdom of liberty and grace?

An Exodus you say? Yes, I agree! One that also took 40 years, from 30 ad to 70 ad. Amazing!


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## hobbs27 (Apr 1, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> In 70AD when all was fulfilled the Law was also fulfilled.
> Is this when God stopped rewarding and punishing people for their deeds and started rewarding and punishing based on people being believers and non-believers?
> 
> Where are the gates of Zion now? Where people outside are dogs?



I don't know how to respond to your first question yet, but the New Jerusalem is Spiritual. Believers are inside, non believers outside.


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## gordon 2 (Apr 1, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Sorry, wrong fire. But wasn't that fire a shadow of He!!'s fire? Wasn't that destruction of Zion a shadow of the destruction in Isaiah 43:16-21?



The way I read Isaiah, which might be incorrect is that it is an explanation of the workings of wrath in the world, in order to purge out evil... so that again man will return to the the original relationship on earth as was intended from the first.

Isaiah indicates how wrath works and what is God's intent for evil doers and for the faithful in the world we now live in.

Regards the Jews of Isaiah's day Isaiah points out that God's wrath will cause invations to their homeland  for their falling away and that they will be deported or exiles from it, and returned to it once evil has been purged form them and they again tarry in faith.

He also points out that one day a Savoir, a single man King, desended from David, will be all righteousness and will reign foreever in righteousness. And that this Savoir will bring in the Gentiles to Isreal ( to Jerusalem)  and the winnowing of the Jews and now the Gentiles will continue. And that one day the winnowing will stop, wrath will stop and the chosen or the faithful only will remain.

After a prophetic overview at the beginning of Isaiah, there is a large section devoted to " Woe to the ...unrighteous..." which is an elaboration of what awaits the unfaithful-- who suffer the effects of wrath. Next is followed another large section which elaborates what awaits the just and the righteous and how they must persevere in the days of winnowing-- in the days of wrath and how it will affect them. ( They will also suffer for it.)

The ending is a summing up of prophecy: what is happening, ( God is winnowing the fields and will continue to do so as the Gentiles come in and after Jesus ( ie. the great commission to the world.)) ; how the just must be prepared to suffer in the toss up and stand firm in faith, in the Holy Spirit; and then one day the end will come.  And when the end of the winnowing comes...man will be returned not only to a spiritual Eden but a earthly one also-- as it was meant to be from the get go.

I see heaven as a temporary place( from my read of Revelations), from which Jesus and the Saints will again come back to walk as man with God as they did did with Adam and Eve before the fall.

But hey that is my take.... and I might be totally in the chaff. ( Although, I call on Jesus and the saints here and in heaven, and not at all to one Isaiah called Lucifer... as far as I can tell.)


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 1, 2016)

My uncle used to winnow cooked shelled peanuts with a small fan to remove the red skins before my aunt made brittle. That word reminded me of that separation.

Matthew 3:12 
"His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." 

The chaff will burn up(destroyed?) with unquenchable fire?

Isaiah 41:16
You will winnow them, the wind will pick them up, and a gale will blow them away. But you will rejoice in the LORD and glory in the Holy One of Israel.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 1, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> My uncle used to winnow cooked shelled peanuts with a small fan to remove the red skins before my aunt made brittle. That word reminded me of that separation.
> 
> Matthew 3:12
> "His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
> ...



When your uncle held the winnowing fork, was he ready to use it? I think that's the point of that verse. Hey! It's at hand! The judgment is coming! It's so close he has the winnowing fork in His hand now!
 That was almost 2,000 years ago.


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## j_seph (Apr 1, 2016)

We just talked about this in revival. Jesus job as a physical human was done here. He died and arose 3 days later, had he not died he could not have risen. Through the physical death man could see him die, have faith because he rose from the grave. Have you wondered why his garments were in a pile yet the face cover was folded neatly?


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## gordon 2 (Apr 1, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> When your uncle held the winnowing fork, was he ready to use it? I think that's the point of that verse. Hey! It's at hand! The judgment is coming! It's so close he has the winnowing fork in His hand now!
> That was almost 2,000 years ago.



It is ongoing... Wrath is ongoing. Rain is still made to fall on all-- just and unjust. The Gentiles are being winnowed now along with the Jews. One is provoked to jealousy...the Jews are still being tested...maybe? The winnowing is not over...2000 yrs ago... for Gordo... and the end is still to come. I bet u a beer in the British pavilion ( it's a pub)  at the Tree of Life Orchards in Eden when we get there.

But hey I'm just Gordo.


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## gordon 2 (Apr 1, 2016)

j_seph said:


> We just talked about this in revival. Jesus job as a physical human was done here. He died and arose 3 days later, had he not died he could not have risen. Through the physical death man could see him die, have faith because he rose from the grave. Have you wondered why his garments were in a pile yet the face cover was folded neatly?



No. What you got? And what is this revival you were talking into?


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## j_seph (Apr 1, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> No. What you got? And what is this revival you were talking into?


Our church is having revival this week


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## hobbs27 (Apr 1, 2016)

j_seph said:


> Our church is having revival this week



I hope you have a great revival, and many are saved.


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## Israel (Apr 2, 2016)

The investment in creation we only know from man's side. And most usually, man's experience.
Man decides a something is to "be" and he plans, gathers, begins the labor...to make a "thing"...an idea now made real. From birdhouse to particle accelerator...an idea, a plan, an investment.

Now consider "Let us make man in our image, and in our likeness." The two perfectly conflicting elements now come into our consciousness...the God who, to whom nothing is impossible, and the making of what is "like Him".

The perfection of power and authority meet  (what we may perceive) as the demand of total investment. (Would to be "like God" be anything less?)

This is "our" reality. 

Someone might say.


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## marketgunner (Apr 2, 2016)

Israel said:


> The investment in creation we only know from man's side. And most usually, man's experience.
> Man decides a something is to "be" and he plans, gathers, begins the labor...to make a "thing"...an idea now made real. From birdhouse to particle accelerator...an idea, a plan, an investment.
> 
> Now consider "Let us make man in our image, and in our likeness." The two perfectly conflicting elements now come into our consciousness...the God who, to whom nothing is impossible, and the making of what is "like Him".
> ...



 But we have been given God's POV in the entire narrative of the physical creation.  Through out the Bible , God says why things exist and the reason He came to be one of us sinners.  We have just ignored the reason we need a savior.
The sole reason for all physical creation is the redemption of sinners and reconciling Heaven itself.  Humanity is the method whereby we share in one mans death to be saved because we share in flesh and blood.

We ignore the fact that we are the bad guys in the narrative of scripture.


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## Israel (Apr 2, 2016)

marketgunner said:


> But we have been given God's POV in the entire narrative of the physical creation.  Through out the Bible , God says why things exist and the reason He came to be one of us sinners.  We have just ignored the reason we need a savior.
> The sole reason for all physical creation is the redemption of sinners and reconciling Heaven itself.  Humanity is the method whereby we share in one mans death to be saved because we share in flesh and blood.
> 
> We ignore the fact that we are the bad guys in the narrative of scripture.



I don't disagree.
To me, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world speaks eloquently, perfectly, to this, and of this.
The concluding of all in the disobedience of unbelief 

For: 

"God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all."

Mercy. The thing in which we find his great pleasure (not excluding others); but which in God's infinite mercy and wisdom "allowed" for what could refuse it by the not seeing of it.


All things created for HIS GOOD PLEASURE...

Who is a God like to you, that pardons iniquity, and passes by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retains not his anger for ever, because he delights in mercy.


Some translations speak He delights to "show mercy".

I don't know about anyone else...but when I am manifestly "shown" mercy...it is breathtaking. I am never less than shocked, stunned to an awareness previously obscured (call me dumbest, slowest, most dense, chiefest of sinners...it is of no matter) His mercy ALWAYS outstrips anything I might have known before.

A friend once asked about a statement I had made regarding "my faith" doing little more than showing how continually wrong I am. It was a fair question. Perhaps it is succinctly seen in that. Yes, as a believer, I confess
"God is good" with as much of my heart (as I know)..."God is merciful", "God is righteous"...but when these things are made manifest...in so many ways...it really is as if I had known...nothing...at all.

The miracle of that faith...when confirmed...in such glorious excess...who, but a stupid man like me...would try and explain it?

But yes, I "need" to see it, and more than I yet know. I'll take what it pleases Him to serve. Some might say "dish out". I'll be the man who is not ashamed of being hungry, I dare not.

Do you hear the dinner bell? Then, help me the more.


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## marketgunner (Apr 2, 2016)

Israel said:


> I don't disagree.
> To me, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world speaks eloquently, perfectly, to this, and of this.
> The concluding of all in the disobedience of unbelief
> 
> ...



The more we accept His Mercy and Grace, and recognize what He did for us to redeem us, the more God is glorified.


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## Israel (Apr 3, 2016)

marketgunner said:


> The more we accept His Mercy and Grace, and recognize what He did for us to redeem us, the more God is glorified.



Amen!


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