# We shall be like him.



## Artfuldodger (Jan 29, 2016)

1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

I think about this often. When will Christ appear? Does this mean we won't see Christ until he appears on the earth or New Jerusalem? 
In what capacity will we be like him? I would assume it has more to do than just being a spirit being. If it means when he appears on the earth again some believers will still have physical bodies. 

Then there is the concept that Jesus is God and we are made in the image of God. Just how much unification does this mean?

I know it's speculation because the verse says; what we will be has not yet been made known. It will be made known when Christ appears.
Yet if we go to be with Christ when we die, is that the "appearance" this verse is referring too?


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## Israel (Jan 30, 2016)

The being "won" to loving his appearing, recognizing his appearing, being changed by his appearing...and his touch, may be for us as clay experiencing the hand of the potter while on the wheel.

The potter alone knows when the work is complete, when the fruit is fully grown and ready for harvest.
Paul had much to say of this. As to not having already attained...but with a confidence described in now seeing ahead the crown laid up for him...and not only him...but all those who "have loved His appearing".
Is there a going from seeing through a glass dimly to then...face to face? We are sure.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 30, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> 1 John 3:2
> Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
> 
> I think about this often. When will Christ appear? Does this mean we won't see Christ until he appears on the earth or New Jerusalem? ( Scripture says that he will be back in the manner as he ascended and one assumes with his glorified body.)
> ...



So... I think Revelations is clear that the saints in heaven also wait for the final Judgement. I take it that Christ`s salvation work is a judgement... but also there will be a final one. I also take it that God`s judgement  accomplishes a `taking out` of `those who hear` or the elect from the world in each case. The Hebrews were taken out of bondage or slavery. For the Savoir the righteous were taken out of false righteousness or false status with God. 

Art, you ask difficult questions. 

This is not my answer, but a sharing of my mind in fellowship:

a. ( First Judgement)The rest of the Hebrews was the Promised Land.
b.  (Second Judgement)The rest of Christians is the Kingdom.
c. (Last Judgement) The rest of the souls( the resurrected) of the last judgement is_______.

Don`t run away with the first, second and last judgement idea here... it`s just scribbling on the bookmark of fellowship. But the rest is more scriptural... if that is more of a clincher for us.  Peace bros.


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## hobbs27 (Jan 30, 2016)

It kind of destroys the idea that Jesus will come back in the same body He left in huh?

John saw Him after His resurrection, yet John doesn't know what He'll be like when He returned.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 30, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> It kind of destroys the idea that Jesus will come back in the same body He left in huh?
> 
> John saw Him after His resurrection, yet John doesn't know what He'll be like when He returned.



Common now!  


we what we will be has not yet been made known.


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## hobbs27 (Jan 30, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> Common now!
> 
> 
> we what we will be has not yet been made known.



But...they had to wait for Him to come so they could then ( See Him) as He then would be...although John had seen Him well after His resurrection.
 What am I missing?

 The ( we) is not us, that would be them.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 30, 2016)

John saw him after his resurrection as did others. Perhaps John was talking about when Christ appears after the ascension. 
So when will or did believers see Christ as he is and become like him?


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## gordon 2 (Jan 30, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> But...they had to wait for Him to come so they could then ( See Him) as He then would be...although John had seen Him well after His resurrection.
> What am I missing?
> 
> The ( we) is not us, that would be them.



I take this whole bit`s subject to be believers not Him. Believers don`t know yet exactly what they will be... Scripture describes well what our Lords resurrected state was. He had a body, not unlike ours and like ours it digested fish--yet something was different about it. It still had injury for Thomas to touch and on the road to Emmaus he was not exactly the same in  appearance maybe, because like others they the desciples did not recognize him initially. He appears suddenly and disappeared suddently. His body was physical but supernatural.   His body was perhaps not unlike Moses`and Elijah`s at the transfiguration... But maybe I`m wrong.


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## hobbs27 (Jan 30, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> I take this whole bit`s subject to be believers not Him. Believers don`t know yet exactly what they will be... Scripture describes well what our Lords resurrected state was. He had a body, not unlike ours and like ours it digested fish--yet something was different about it. It still had injury for Thomas to touch and on the road to Emmaus he was not exactly the same in  appearance maybe, because like others they the desciples did not recognize him initially. He appears suddenly and disappeared suddently. His body was physical but supernatural.   His body was perhaps not unlike Moses`and Elijah`s at the transfiguration... But maybe I`m wrong.



 I'm just going to show you from the futurist point ( if I can ) how it doesn't matter if John was speaking of a soon coming , during their lifetime or one way , way later ...John would not know what Christ would look like or be at His return.... So its obvious John did not believe in a physical, bodily return.


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## hobbs27 (Jan 30, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> John saw him after his resurrection as did others. Perhaps John was talking about when Christ appears after the ascension.
> So when will or did believers see Christ as he is and become like him?



Ephesians 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

They were like Him because they built the new testament messianic Temple!
 A spiritual Temple .


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 30, 2016)

I wonder if Saul of Tarsus saw Jesus as he was and became like Jesus? Maybe this vision was different for some reason than the one John talks about. This appearance might be different. 
I don't think Paul became like Jesus.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 30, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Ephesians 2:20
> And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
> 
> 1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
> ...



Why had it not yet been known to the Children of God? When did Christ appear so that these children would see Christ as he is and become like him?

Do you think it just means "spirit?" Have you seen Jesus as he is and become like him? 
This appearance is a different time for you and me? When Christ appears is at conversion or spiritual resurrection?
Then we become like him.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 30, 2016)

When was it revealed? Meaning what we will be or become.

Psalm 17:15
As for me, I will be vindicated and will see your face; when I awake, I will be satisfied with seeing your likeness.

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Colossians 3:4
When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

Maybe just my upbringing but it sounds futuristic. It could very well be at our individual spiritual resurrections. It could be at different times for all of the Children when we die a physical death. 
I'm not doubting that it is spiritual, just that it hasn't happened yet. What I will be hasn't been revealed. I haven't seen Christ's appearance. I haven't become like him.
I'm pretty sure there is more to what I will become than just a spiritual being. I'm pretty sure it's way, way more than just that. More than just being a spirit because Jesus is a spirit.


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## hobbs27 (Jan 30, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why had it not yet been known to the Children of God? When did Christ appear so that these children would see Christ as he is and become like him?
> 
> Do you think it just means "spirit?" Have you seen Jesus as he is and become like him?
> This appearance is a different time for you and me? When Christ appears is at conversion or spiritual resurrection?
> Then we become like him.



 Why does any of this have to involve us?


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## Israel (Jan 30, 2016)

The seeing of Christ is the the seeing of the Christ. Beholding a physical body means nothing if it is known only "after the flesh". Many saw Jesus, a few probably even "got his blood on them" so to speak. All this is of no consequence.
It's almost strange that those (perhaps) not professing the Lord might have some grasp that seeing a person may mean so much more than activation of certain cells on the retina.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 30, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Why does any of this have to involve us?



Because we are now children of God and what we will be has not yet been made known.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 30, 2016)

John was writing in what is believed to be 70AD -100AD. During this time Docetism was gaining in popularity. 
It means "seems to" as in Jesus on seemed to be a man. They believed everything spiritual was good and everything flesh was bad.
Even to the point that because of this God could never take on flesh. He only seemed to be human. 

They didn't believe that Jesus actually resurrected as a human, That he only seemed to resurrect as a human.


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## hobbs27 (Jan 30, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> John was writing in what is believed to be 70AD -100AD. During this time Docetism was gaining in popularity.
> It means "seems to" as in Jesus on seemed to be a man. They believed everything spiritual was good and everything flesh was bad.
> Even to the point that because of this God could never take on flesh. He only seemed to be human.
> 
> They didn't believe that Jesus actually resurrected as a human, That he only seemed to resurrect as a human.



All I know , is what scripture tells us here in 1 John 3:2 and what it tells us is that John was not expecting a physical body that Jesus left in to come back...or he would have known what Christ was like.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 30, 2016)

Colossians 3:4
When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

Romans 8:17
and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.18 Yet what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory he will reveal to us later.

Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Philippians 3:10
I want to know Christ--yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,

How and when will we be finally glorified?


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 30, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> All I know , is what scripture tells us here in 1 John 3:2 and what it tells us is that John was not expecting a physical body that Jesus left in to come back...or he would have known what Christ was like.



I agree. John says it hasn't been revealed yet. To say it has anything to do with being a spiritual or physical body is speculation. It hasn't been revealed. It could be something else.
Some type of unity perhaps. Maybe something to do with becoming his brother or becoming a joint heir. 
Maybe this verse has nothing at all to do at all with any type of physical, spiritual, or glorified body. It only says we won't know until Christ appears and we see him as he is and that at that point we will become like him.


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## hobbs27 (Jan 30, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> I agree. John says it hasn't been revealed yet. To say it has anything to do with being a spiritual or physical body is speculation. It hasn't been revealed. It could be something else.
> Some type of unity perhaps. Maybe something to do with becoming his brother or becoming a joint heir.
> Maybe this verse has nothing at all to do at all with any type of physical, spiritual, or glorified body. It only says we won't know until Christ appears and we see him as he is and that at that point we will become like him.



Yes..of course they were saying us meaning them. ;-)


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## Israel (Jan 31, 2016)

In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength. When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,…


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## gordon 2 (Jan 31, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> 1 John 3:2
> Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
> 
> I think about this often. When will Christ appear? Does this mean we won't see Christ until he appears on the earth or New Jerusalem?
> ...




1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Call me slow. Call me a doubter. And call me honest.

Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known.  Subject here is `we`. We here means friends, or believers... in relationship with God.

John continues `we know that when Christ appears we will see Jesus as he is and we shall be like him. I understand by this that we shall see Jesus resurrected and we will be like him resurrected.

I understand `what we will be` here to mean what our rest will be as a body of believers or what exactly our existence post resurrection will be.  This is yet made known.

Christ is the second Adam and priest of Melchizedek for all time. The spiritual nature of our Lord that we know of today is our claim to a communion with God. As a resurrected soul he is our model for all time, of man eternal. His trust in the Father and for his command of the power of the Holy Spirit, Jesus resurrected  is our model for all time and times. His resurrected body is our model of man returned to man`s ancient,graceful and eternal nature. This we can know. What we don`t know is exactly what it is going to be like walking with God like Adam and Eve did before the fall. What we will be then is so out of this world that even for the saints what it will be like is nebulous.


So I say the use of we here indicated believers and the resurrected. I take it that for some we here means believers and Jesus. I just don`t get the last meaning...


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## gordon 2 (Jan 31, 2016)

I will take a guess at what will be known and be post the resurrection:
-----------------------
Proverbs 3: 5-6

5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
--------------------
There will be no need to teach man or point him to the above, it will be.

Since God rescued his chosen people, and before, and since our Savoir Jesus, God is witnessing to us, first through the prophets and next Him teaching us, that one day we will return to our eternal nature as souls with Him. For me this is a promise I have faith in, just as others in the past had a faith that one day a Savior would free them from the prisons, from  the captivity of the world of sin and sorrows. The cross of Jesus is our key that no goal can keep us desperate and without hope. The resurrection, this last judgement, will be our key that to Eden nous voila. And what that will be like is hard to say. In this I trust in Him and think this just might be called faith.


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## welderguy (Jan 31, 2016)

When we become totally sinless in every sense of the word,then we will be like Him.
Spiritually speaking,right now we are sinless in God's eyes.But,as long as we are in this sin-cursed body,and in this sin-cursed world,we are still not like Him yet.
Presently,we are the sons of God,but it has not yet been revealed what we shall be.

This corruptible must put on incorruption and this
mortal(body that dies)must put on immortality(a body that will live forever).

That which is sown(buried) in corruption shall be raised(resurrected) in incorruption.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 31, 2016)

welderguy said:


> When we become totally sinless in every sense of the word,then we will be like Him.
> Spiritually speaking,right now we are sinless in God's eyes.But,as long as we are in this sin-cursed body,and in this sin-cursed world,we are still not like Him yet.
> Presently,we are the sons of God,but it has not yet been revealed what we shall be.
> 
> ...



Maybe our sin keeps us from seeing Christ as he is.When Christ appears and we become like him, then we can share in his glory. We will see him as he is, sinless. 

Man has already seen Christ as sinless. We just won't know until Christ appears.
I still think it has something to do with unity and glorification. At least more than a physical, spiritual, or glorified body.


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## welderguy (Jan 31, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> I still think it has something to do with unity and glorification. At least more than a physical, spiritual, or glorified body.



I agree.
Jesus ,in His High Priestly prayer(John 17),prays for all those things to be performed in those that the Father gave to Him.


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## hobbs27 (Jan 31, 2016)

welderguy said:


> When we become totally sinless in every sense of the word,then we will be like Him.
> Spiritually speaking,right now we are sinless in God's eyes



 Thanks!


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## welderguy (Jan 31, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Thanks!



Before you get all thankful and all,are you sure you understand my whole post?
It involves the bodily resurrection.(physical,individual bodies)


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## hobbs27 (Jan 31, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Before you get all thankful and all,are you sure you understand my whole post?
> It involves the bodily resurrection.(physical,individual bodies)



I understand your dilemma, it's much like the Israelites questioning of Jesus in the Gospel John. He spoke in the spiritual and they reasoned in the physical, which had them confused.
 You say spiritually speaking, right now, in the eyes of God we are sinless.
 My only question is, if we are sinless in the eyes of God, who's eyes are we not, and what does that matter?


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## gordon 2 (Jan 31, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Before you get all thankful and all,are you sure you understand my whole post?
> It involves the bodily resurrection.(physical,individual bodies)



Not to mention a smiggen of imputed righteousness doctrine to bite the lip. OH!  I can taste this baking soda in almost anything it has been added to. OH!


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## gordon 2 (Jan 31, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> I understand your dilemma, it's much like the Israelites questioning of Jesus in the Gospel John. He spoke in the spiritual and they reasoned in the physical, which had them confused.
> You say spiritually speaking, right now, in the eyes of God we are sinless.
> My only question is, if we are sinless in the eyes of God, who's eyes are we not, and what does that matter?



I take it that our righteousness is that we have been taken out of the world. It is a status, not a state.  We can be righteous yet withhold charity... me thinks. ( Although this is off topic I have studied imputed righteousness in Wikipedia Academy and so I totally know what I`m talking about. So... there...)

Paul, says this about himself: 

If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. Imputed Paul said this!


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## welderguy (Jan 31, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> I understand your dilemma, it's much like the Israelites questioning of Jesus in the Gospel John. He spoke in the spiritual and they reasoned in the physical, which had them confused.
> You say spiritually speaking, right now, in the eyes of God we are sinless.
> My only question is, if we are sinless in the eyes of God, who's eyes are we not, and what does that matter?



I'm rushing out the door but look at John 5:25-28.
Do you see two different resurrections there?One that "now is" and one that is "coming".
I believe the first is spiritual(regeneration) and the second physical(bodily resurrection)

I will be back a little later.

P.S. Gordon, can you explain?


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## gordon 2 (Jan 31, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I'm rushing out the door but look at John 5:25-28.
> Do you see two different resurrections there?One that "now is" and one that is "coming".
> I believe the first is spiritual(regeneration) and the second physical(bodily resurrection)
> 
> ...



Possibly but I bet you a beer that this has been explained to our brother more times than Billy Sunday preached on CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored fire.

Brother is 21 yrs old, God and him are in a relationship. I will leave it to them and would rather explain things, debate and argue with brother Billy Sunday on the merits of a good rum drink than  explain`the promise of bodily resurrection to our esteemed friend in Christ. Best regards bros.


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## hobbs27 (Jan 31, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I'm rushing out the door but look at John 5:25-28.
> Do you see two different resurrections there?One that "now is" and one that is "coming".
> I believe the first is spiritual(regeneration) and the second physical(bodily resurrection)
> 
> ...



I do not see two {different} resurrections but one resurrection at two seperate times. The first time is the physically living spiritually dead. The time of this is at the preaching of the Gospel @ Pentacost. The second one is the physicially and spiritually dead in Sheol/Hades which heard his voice and the Gospel @ 70ad. They too were made alive spiritually at that time.


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## hobbs27 (Jan 31, 2016)

Here's some clarification from Mike Sullivan..
 In order to understand John 5:28 and 29, we must first look three verses above it, in John 5:25, where Jesus said that the hour “now is” when “the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live.”  As most Reformed interpreters agree, Jesus in that verse was referring to the preaching of His death and resurrection.  The preaching of that message commenced at Pentecost.  “The dead” were physically living people who were spiritually dead in sin, and “the voice of the Son of God” was the gospel.  Having heard the gospel, those who were spiritually “dead” were spiritually resurrected.  They lived in that they received eternal life through faith in the gospel (“the voice of the Son of God”).
Then, in verses 28 and 29, Jesus expanded His teaching on the resurrection to include those who were not only spiritually dead, but who were also physically dead.  He did not call them “dead” (as He had already called the living who were spiritually dead), but He referred to them through another figure of speech as “all who are in the graves.”  They were not literally in their graves or tombs, of course, but were in Hades/Sheol.
What is often missed in this passage is that, like the physically living in verse 25, the physically dead in verse 28 were also going to live by means of hearing Christ’s “voice.”  As we know from verse 25, that “voice” is the gospel.  The physically dead therefore were going to hear the gospel (cf. 1 Pet. 4:6.) and were, as a result of hearing the gospel, going to be resurrected (regenerated, born from out of death and Hades).  This means that the physically dead were, like the physically living, spiritually dead.  And this inescapably means that both the physically living and the physically dead were going to be spiritually resurrected by means of the gospel-voice of the Son of God.  One resurrection in two main stages:  First, the last days saints; then, the Old Testament dead (“the rest of the dead” in Revelation 20:5). Note the parallels between John 4:21, 23 and John 5:25, 28:
1. . . . [T]he hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth. . . . (Jn. 4:23)
2. . . . [T]he hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. (Jn. 4:21)
1. . . . [T]he hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (Jn. 5:25)
2. . . . [T]he hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice. . . . (Jn. 5:28)
These two sets of prophecies are parallel.  They speak of the same timeframes, which were these:
Pentecost (AD 30)
1. The true worshipers would worship the Father in spirit and in truth.
1. The dead would hear the voice of the Son of God, and live.
Fall of Jerusalem (AD 70)
2. God’s worshipers would no longer worship Him in Jerusalem.
2. All who were in the graves would hear His voice.
After hearing the gospel, the dead were raised out of their Adamic graves (Hades) in the end of the age.  And those among them who believed the gospel received eternal life in the kingdom of God.  But those who hated the gospel (those who had done evil) were raised out of Hades only to stand before God and to enter into “eternal punishment” / “the second death” (Matt. 25:46; Jn. 5:28-29; Rev. 20:14).”
Another challenge for Partial Preterist Kenneth Gentry, is that he agrees with full preterism that Jesus’ “already and not yet” eschatological “hour” in John 4 is between AD 30 – AD 70 when the old covenant mountain and temple worship is removed and the new was established.[7]  But then Gentry asserts with no exegetical justification that Jesus’ same phrases on the coming eschatological “hour” in John 5 allegedly deal with the end of time?!?  We again find this arbitrary and exegetically unconvincing.
Jesus interprets Jesus – Resurrection of Daniel 12:2-3 to be fulfilled at the end of the Old Covenant Age in AD 70 
We have further evidence that Jesus identifies the resurrection of Daniel 12:2-3 and John 5:28-29 to be fulfilled spiritually in AD 70.  In Jesus’ teaching elsewhere in the gospels we find that He posits the resurrection of Daniel 12:2-3 (referencing it directly) to be fulfilled at the end of His old covenant “this age” “gathering” and or in His AD 30 – AD 70 “this generation” (Matt. 13:39-43; Matt. 24:3, 30-31, 34).  Again, Partial Preterism has conceded to Full Preterism that the “end of the age” in Matthew 13 and 24 is not referring to the end of world history, but rather the end of the Old Covenant age in AD 70:
“A clear understanding of the parable of the wheat and tares [Matthew 13:39-43] emerges only after the proper translation of aion (age) and the biblical teaching concerning the two ages.  It is clear that Jesus did not have in mind the end of the world, nor did He mean the final judgment.  Rather, Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43 describe the judgment that would come upon unbelieving Jerusalem. During this time, the angels would “gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity” (13:41) and these would be judged with fire.  Many of them literally were burned in fire during the destruction of Jerusalem.  During this same time, however, the elect of Christ—“the children of the kingdom” (v. 38)—will be harvested.  While the explanation of the parable does not tell us their final end, the parable itself has the householder instructing the harvesters to “gather the wheat into my barn.”  In other words, they are protected and saved by God.
This, of course, is exactly what happened to the Christians. Not only were they saved in soul, but they mostly fled Jerusalem before the Roman siege.  This was consequent to Jesus’ advice to flee and not look back once the sings arose (Matt. 24:16-22); indeed this would correspond with the angels’ work of harvesting the elect (24:30).”[8]
“It is after hearing about the desolation of their “house” [Matthew 23:40-38] – the temple – that the disciples ask about the “temple buildings” (24:1).  Jesus answered the disciples’ questions relating to the time and signs of Jerusalem’s destruction, always with the background of Matthew 23 in view, since His comments in that chapter had precipitated the questions (24:3).  The Old Covenant order would end with the destruction of Jerusalem.  This would be the “sign” of the “end of the age,” the end of the Old Covenant, and the consummation of the New Covenant.


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## welderguy (Jan 31, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> I do not see two {different} resurrections but one resurrection at two seperate times. The first time is the physically living spiritually dead. The time of this is at the preaching of the Gospel @ Pentacost. The second one is the physicially and spiritually dead in Sheol/Hades which heard his voice and the Gospel @ 70ad. They too were made alive spiritually at that time.



If one was at Pentecost and the other at 70AD,then when and how are you and I resurrected?


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## welderguy (Jan 31, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> Possibly but I bet you a beer that this has been explained to our brother more times than Billy Sunday preached on CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored fire.
> 
> Brother is 21 yrs old, God and him are in a relationship. I will leave it to them and would rather explain things, debate and argue with brother Billy Sunday on the merits of a good rum drink than  explain`the promise of bodily resurrection to our esteemed friend in Christ. Best regards bros.



Hobbs is 21 years old?...or Billy Sunday?


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## hobbs27 (Jan 31, 2016)

welderguy said:


> If one was at Pentecost and the other at 70AD,then when and how are you and I resurrected?



One began at Pentecost for the living, the very same one went out to the dead in 70 ad, the very same one birthed me in 1984...although I was physically born in 71.
 I am in my resurrected state, just awaiting the shedding of this flesh.


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## welderguy (Jan 31, 2016)

How could it start at Pentecost for the living?That would mean some of the living would "prevent"(precede) them that are asleep.And that would contradict 2 Thess.4:15-16.

"15...we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"


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## hobbs27 (Jan 31, 2016)

welderguy said:


> How could it start at Pentecost for the living?That would mean some of the living would "prevent"(precede) them that are asleep.And that would contradict 2 Thess.4:15-16.
> 
> "15...we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
> 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"



Here's how I explain it. The resurrection upon the living according to John 5:24 Began @ Pentecost when the Gospel was preached, those people moved from death to life, but the judgment was yet to come... This is the already but not yet period. Here's what I know..


*  There was an evangelistic resurrection or salvation of the soul taking people out of death and darkness into life and light of eternal life.
*  There was a corporate and covenantal resurrection by which the old covenant Israel/body was being changed/transformed/being raised into the new covenant Israel/body roughly during AD 30 – AD 70.
*  There was a resurrection of souls out from among Hades/Abraham’s Bosom to inherit eternal life in God’s presence.
*  This resurrection was from (and an overcoming of) “the [spiritual] death” that came from Adam the very same day he sinned against God.

How do you explain the living resurrection as in John 5:24 and 1 Thessalonians 4? I thought we were in agreement on a living person passing from death to life at Salvation..so wasn't people saved before ad,70-----but you believe in a future resurrection of the dead which means 1 Thessalonians 4 contradicts your own salvation being a resurrection from death to life-- doesn't it?


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## welderguy (Feb 1, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> How do you explain the living resurrection as in John 5:24 and 1 Thessalonians 4? I thought we were in agreement on a living person passing from death to life at Salvation..so wasn't people saved before ad,70-----but you believe in a future resurrection of the dead which means 1 Thessalonians 4 contradicts your own salvation being a resurrection from death to life-- doesn't it?



It's not NEARLY as complicated as you are making it.
First,there are only two resurrections.(one is spiritual,one is physical)

The spiritual one(John 5:25)happens within a person,and is also known as regeneration or being born again.
The physical one(John 5:28,2 Thess.4)will happen in the future when Christ returns(NOT 70AD).And yes,bodies will literally come up out of the graves.(or from wherever their atoms were scattered).


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## gordon 2 (Feb 1, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Hobbs is 21 years old?...or Billy Sunday?






 I listened to two New Agers witness last night. They claimed that the born again individual was a spirit, that they were a spirit and the individuals in the world were physical or carnal ( which included us ( to them) old time religion bible believing folk). They had been godified ( my term) by living from a spirit only paradigm  by God's grace-- and witnessed so that others would be godified as well.  

They also believed that in the old testament Lord God as opposed to God was Satin and that Jesus was this Satin ( angel of light)  that had converted. In the old testament they claimed Lord God was the antagonist of God. When Jesus told Peter, "stand behind me Satan", according to them, Jesus was talking to himself, or was having conversation with himself.

What struck me with these people was not their beliefs which are not new as they are in tandem with Gnostic ideas ( Secret ideas know to only a few elect). But what struck me was that they were bible only, bible believing folk. They were sincere in their beliefs and entertained  no idea for or against them that was not backed up by scripture. They insisted on bible only.

For spiritual revelation out of the ordinary, not by just a few steps, but by distances  measured in light yrs, these fellow travelers need the diagnosis of a  specialist I think, and by golly I'm not qualified. 

I mean it's hard to beat Gods on God, and especially when they appear as husband and wife like the two  spirit witnesses I listened to last night. And I bet you two beers that I would be corrected by them for all I have said above, although I have tried to be honest as a recorder of their sayings because for them of eyes all spiritual and myself being yet godified, my desires, understandings and interpretations and expressions are but carnal.





------------

 Now, who started this tread and what was it about? Art, any idea?


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## hobbs27 (Feb 1, 2016)

welderguy said:


> It's not NEARLY as complicated as you are making it.
> First,there are only two resurrections.(one is spiritual,one is physical)
> 
> The spiritual one(John 5:25)happens within a person,and is also known as regeneration or being born again.
> The physical one(John 5:28,2 Thess.4)will happen in the future when Christ returns(NOT 70AD).And yes,bodies will literally come up out of the graves.(or from wherever their atoms were scattered).




 I think your idea is even more complicated. If yours is true, man must die twice and ressurect twice. I don't see that in the scriptures.
 John 5 is one Resurrection, two groups. The first group is the living , the second is the dead.
 They are both brought from spiritual death to spiritual life. Then they are joined together as one group ( The Bride) in 70 ad.

Notice it is the same process that brought the ones in the grave to life as brought the physically living to life.
 They heard his voice! ( The Gospel).


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## hobbs27 (Feb 1, 2016)

Maybe the problem understanding the one Resurrection is the preconceived notion that the church age will end some day? The end of the age has always been the end of the old covenant age, and the age of Christ has always been an unending age, one that lasts forever.

Ephesians 3:20-21
Isaiah 9:7
Luke 1:33
Daniel 7:14

 I know we are all taught about an end of the new covenant age,but I challenge you to show me where that is biblical. I have searched the scriptures over and nothing says that, it only refers to the end of the old covenant age, so...What am I to do, believe tradition, or believe Scripture?


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 1, 2016)

Two resurrections does sound a little strange. If my first one is spiritual, why do I need a physical resurrection? Especially if I'm already present with the Lord.
If I'm already in Heaven or some holding place, why must I wait until Christ appears to see him as he is and be like him?


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## welderguy (Feb 1, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Maybe the problem understanding the one Resurrection is the preconceived notion that the church age will end some day? The end of the age has always been the end of the old covenant age, and the age of Christ has always been an unending age, one that lasts forever.
> 
> Ephesians 3:20-21
> Isaiah 9:7
> ...



The new covenant is definately an unending covenant.He said its an "everlasting covenant".No problem there.

Im still concerned with your contradiction of 2 Thess.4.
Your theology has the order of events backwards.
This text says "the dead in Christ will rise first".

But you say the alive started resurrecting at Pentecost,then later at 70AD the dead in Christ will resurrect.Thats backwards.

Until you get this detail worked out,I see no point in continuing this.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 1, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Two resurrections does sound a little strange. If my first one is spiritual, why do I need a physical resurrection? Especially if I'm already present with the Lord.
> If I'm already in Heaven or some holding place, why must I wait until Christ appears to see him as he is and be like him?





Revelation 21:1-5 (KJV)

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea*.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
---------------
Arthur, I take the use of the word sea* here to mean physical death or the holding tank of the dead... The sea as a concrete item used symbolically  as the lockup of the dead can be demonstrated in scripture. Also the author of Revelations speaks of two deaths regards human nature. The first death I perhaps too easily assume to be our death with Christ, or our rescue from the fallen world due to the sacrifice of our Lord and Lamb of God, Jesus.  The second death the authors says " And death and CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." ( All are alive to God.)

"The tabernacle of God with men"... "and they will be his people".... to me speaks of human beings created as souls, which are created beings made from the material of the earth and have God breathed life and to be consistent with scripture not only to be His creation but his creation to be in  forever communion-communication-relationship with Him.

Although there will be no tears, there will be eyes. And although there will be no pain, there will be no fear that it will come again someday-- like the unpredictability of the, the up and down of the, of our yet spiritual stock markets which some of use cry over.

I think Art, that as long as we can talk about going to heaven or CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored, the sea continues her lock up and the second coming and His  final Judgement is still a few waves off. For now our tempests must be--ringing ears and eyes dimming we will sail her down to the shoals of times and then as for a dove to this ark his olive branch, our eyes and ears new to the light will be....  




I bet you see leaking in my boat... bet you a beer.  Now we see dimly, but then... We see dimly now perhaps because we still see through a body that is condemned to the lockup of the sea, but take that lock up away and what do you see? What is new your spirit or your physical body? .... ( Remember for now all prophecies are partial.  " For we know in part, and we prophesy in part." Paul)

 And therefore: 1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known.

Imagine reading this: 

Dear friends, now we are adults with God, and what was said, what was hoped for concerning that which we would be, now we are.

1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.


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## hobbs27 (Feb 1, 2016)

welderguy said:


> The new covenant is definately an unending covenant.He said its an "everlasting covenant".No problem there.
> 
> Im still concerned with your contradiction of 2 Thess.4.
> Your theology has the order of events backwards.
> ...



I guess you didn't understand the " already, but not yet". 
 Let me brush up a little and I'll attempt to put it in a way that is simple and backed by Scripture.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 1, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> I guess you didn't understand the " already, but not yet".
> Let me brush up a little and I'll attempt to put it in a way that is simple and backed by Scripture.



So either it all is or it isn't. Meaning fulfillment  of prophesy such as;

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Luke 1:31-33 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. {32} He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: {33} And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

My question is; When Christ appears we will see him as he is and we will become like him. 
Have we as Christians done this yet? 

What we will be has not yet been made known. Has it now been made known?


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## hobbs27 (Feb 2, 2016)

Welderguy, Sorry its taken so long to get back to this. As I was searching for a way to explain it to you, ( As I understand it) I stumbled  across something very interesting and I've been going back and forth on it with someone we might call a scholar. Anyway, I was hoping to have that resolved before I responded to this but its not, so I'll do my best to explain the already but not yet.
 As the Gospel was preached at Pentecost many were saved, by being saved they received eternal life. Christ covered the sin , that they may have full access to God.

 I say they had full access because it is sin that separated man and God in the beginning. In the day Adam took of the fruit he died, ( spiritually) . Adam was never made to physically live forever, physical death is the natural order of God, not the curse of Adam.. Adam ate to sustain life, therefore he was always going to die a physical death.

This is because sin entered and was between him and God. Adam was cast out of the garden, which the Jews reference as the most holy place.
 The Temple was  representative of the garden , the veil represented sin that blocked the Access to God. Only the high priest could enter, and he had to take blood.
 Remember death reigned from Adam to Moses Romans 5:14--- this is spiritual death .

 Jesus physically died and was physically resurrected. He is the only one to receive that promise. The preaching of Jesus death , burial , and resurrection ( The Gospel ) brought the men @ Pentecost out of spiritual death and into eternal spiritual life. They were still going to die a physical death. 
 When Christ came back in 70 ad as he said he would in Matt. 24 which parallels with 1 Thess. 4-5 and 1 Cor. 15. There were some that had died a physical death from 30ad to that day in 70ad, they were dead in Christ. Although they had received the promise ( the already but not yet) death had not been defeated yet...remember death was the last enemy. Death was completely defeated after the judgment on Israel and the destruction of the Old Covenant system and temple.

 In Pauls letter to the church in Thessalonica, he was comforting them, they were concerned about their loved ones that died before Christ came, so Pauls message was they will rise first, then them which were alive and remained  would be gathered with them to meet the Lord in the air... That word air means surrounding air or Spirit, not upper atmosphere.  They were all joined with Christ as the New Testament Church.Its full inaugural event.

 As for physical vs spiritual bodies just read Paul on this in 1cor 15: 35-f. I think he makes it clear that the body is spiritual not physical.


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## hobbs27 (Feb 2, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> My question is; When Christ appears we will see him as he is and we will become like him.
> Have we as Christians done this yet?
> 
> What we will be has not yet been made known. Has it now been made known?



 The best answer I think was pointed out by Israel earlier. John saw Christ in Revelation.

 What did they see? It's hard to answer since we have a gap in church history known as the hiatus. I think the most important message in this though , is that we know John saw Christ before and after His resurrection... Yet John did not know what Christ would be like when He returned. John was not looking for Christ to return in the very same physical body He left in.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 2, 2016)

Matthew 12:41"The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah;...

Let me rewrite this: The spirit of the men of Nineveh will stand up with  all the spirits of this generation at the judgment....  Can anyone suggest a different word set for " stand up"... I'm tired tonight.


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## hobbs27 (Feb 2, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> Matthew 12:41"The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah;...
> 
> Let me rewrite this: The spirit of the men of Nineveh will stand up with  all the spirits of this generation at the judgment....  Can anyone suggest a different word set for " stand up"... I'm tired tonight.



Rise.

English Standard Version
The men of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.


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## hobbs27 (Feb 2, 2016)

1 Cor. 1542 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 2, 2016)

It's believable that it's all spiritual. We know that Adam was separated from God spiritually. I'm pretty sure Adam wasn't designed to live forever physically. 
If so then Christ's atonement for our life would have to be that we live forever physically which we know we don't.
Christ didn't die so that we live forever physically unless we sleep in the ground until he returns. I don't think we can have it both ways. Meaning everlasting life. It has to be either physical or spiritual.
We can't say that we will  go be with God & Jesus spiritually if everlasting life is physical. 

I understand the concept of everlasting life being spiritual. That being said, why was Jesus' resurrection physical? If it's all spiritual to include the first Adam, why did the 2nd Adam resurrect physically? Aren't there scriptures that say we'll resurrect like Jesus? Aren't there some scriptures that compare our "state" after our physical death and/or resurrection to that of Jesus' physical death and/or resurrection?

I still don't see how we can die a physical death, resurrect spiritually to go see Christ as he is, become like him, return to the earth, resurrect a 2nd time physically, see Christ as he is again, and become like him again.
I see no proof of two resurrections. Either we see Christ as he is spiritually or we see Christ as he is physically. We either see him when we die physically or we wait in the ground until he "appears." Then we will see him as he is and become like him.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 2, 2016)

Keep in mind that most Christians are Trinitarians and therefore will see Christ as he is as a separate but equal 1/3 part of the Godhead. Jesus having his own soul/spirit.

Oneness believers will see Christ as he really is as a human. God became a human and is no longer just a spirit. Jesus not having his own soul/spirit but that of God's. God actually and literally became Jesus.
                                                                                                                                         Mormons will see Christ as he really is as a human.

One would think Trinitarians will see Christ as a spirit and not as a human.

I see Christ as a brother. Still a mystery as to "when he appears" and when I will "become like him." 

Heir to the Kingdom and honorary Jew brother/son of God by adoption.


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## hobbs27 (Feb 3, 2016)

Art, I found this concerning topic:
We Shall Be Like Him

Posted on Mar 18, 2009 By David Embury

After his resurrection Jesus was not LIMITED to the fleshly realm, but was variously manifested:

Act 10:40-41 God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible, not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.

Lk 24:16, 31 But their eyes were prevented from recognizing Him. Then their eyes were opened and they recognized Him; and He vanished from their sight.

Mk 16:12 After that, He appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking along on their way to the country.

Jesus’ resurrection was totally unique in history and nature. He was the ONLY one the Scriptures ever promised would NOT suffer corruption i.e., see decay. His resurrection though touching the physical was primarily “covenantal” in nature.

Act 26:23 …that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”

We all know Jesus WAS NOT the first to rise “physically” from the dead. His resurrection though indeed physical was vastly different than any prior or since, for Christ’s resurrection was beyond the physical, it was covenantal and permanent. Yet in this very real sense Jesus WAS the first to rise from the dead, for He had to rise physically to fulfill the Scriptures, being the “natural” testimony of such fulfillment – no other person’s resurrection was the promise of Scripture.

The power of the resurrection initiated the restoration of the Presence of God to man, healing the spiritual-relational separation [true death] of lost humanity – humanity was brought back into covenant with God. And it was in that time-frame, the “this generation” era that his “soon to be” Parousia would consummate the work of the Cross; the Cross-Parousia event being the book-ends of God’s final redemptive act in history.

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

According to John it was “not yet apparent what they should be.” It would be presumptuous to ASSUME he was speaking of physical resurrection in this verse, considering the post resurrection manifestations so many witnessed – they knew what Jesus was like – [Lk 24:31, 35-43; Jn 20:24-29; 21:1-14; 1Cor 15:5-8]. There were numerous witnesses: Paul on the road to Damascus encountered a very different Jesus [in form] than did Thomas. Paul speaking said: “we [Paul and his audience] now know Christ no longer after the flesh“2Cor 5:16. Seeing Him as He is speaks of them, the first century first-fruit saints, experiencing their “GLORIFIED” Lord in His coming [Mt 16:27-28], and subsequently sharing in that glory [Rom 8:18]. All are raised up in death into that same presence of God, as Paul says: “from glory to glory” 2Cor 3:18. Yet this is not something to be awaited, it is entered upon even now, from the moment one comes to the revelation of their covenant relationship with God, through faith in Christ.

Jn 17:1, 5, 22, 24 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You… And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was… And the glory which You gave Me I have given them,that they may be one just as We are one:

“Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

2Thess 1:10 …when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Col 3:4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

Thus “…we shall be like Him for, we shall see Him as He is” [1Jn 3:2] speaks of the glorified Christ and the glory that the first-fruits saints would thus experience in His Parousia when the Old Covenant was finally done away and the New Covenant fully realised.

Of further interest and note was the 1st century Jewish concept of resurrection. The Jews had a penchant for all things literal – even the disciples [Jn 6:15;Act 1:6]. Apart from the sceptical denials of the secular ruling class of Sadducees, the fundamental Jewish expectation of Jesus’ day was that of a fully literal, creaturely,this body back into this world physical resurrection; as is obvious from the Sadducees’ question [Mk 12:23]. And clearly this Jewish expectation was not unfounded:

Heb 11:17-19By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, of whom it was said, “In Isaac your seed shall be called,” concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.

The British biblical historian and scholar N.T. Wright notes:

As good creational monotheists, mainline Jews were not hoping to escape from the present universe into some Platonic realm of eternal bliss enjoyed by disembodied souls after the end of the space-time universe. If they died in the fight for the restoration of Israel, they hoped not to ‘go to heaven’, or at least not permanently, but to be raised to new bodies when the kingdom came, since they would of course need new bodies to enjoy the very much this-worldly shalom, peace and prosperity that was in store.

N.T. Wright: The New Testament And The People Of God p. 286

Jesus’ very physical and literal creaturely bodily resurrection fulfilled this very Jewish expectation [Lk 24:36-38; Jn 20:20, 27]. Again, life after death or as N.T. Wright says: “life after life, after death” i.e., resurrection life, for the Jew was all aboutbodily resurrection back intothis life, into this world, never to die again – this Jesus exclusively fulfilled [Act 13:33-35]. Without doubt, Jesus was resurrectedback into this world –not Heaven. True, post resurrection he ascended into the heavens, but after his death and burial he was raised up to life “on the third day” [Act 10:40; 1Cor 15:4] back into this creation, to which Scripture attests – many gave testimony. Therefore, Christ’s resurrection was wholly and solely unique – never to see decay [Act 2:31; Psa 16:10], and cannot be said to be the primer for any subsequent “physical” resurrection.

￼As already stated; the Biblical text clearly makes evident that Jesus was in fact NOT the first to experience physical resurrection from biological death – which indicates that rejuvenated physicality is not the true essence of what resurrection was all about – though in Jesus’ case his literal bodily resurrection was the sign and testimony to his followers that “He ever lives to make intercession for them” [Heb 7:25]. He was in fact, the first to rise up out from among the dead [Act 26:23; Col 1:18; Rev 1:5] of Old Covenant Israel, into New Covenant Life – the true essence of resurrection. Resurrection was all about covenant renewal and covenant transition – the passing of the Old Covenant age by that which was perfect, the New Covenant world of righteousness in Christ [2Pet 3:13].

Any subsequent resurrection/s could not and cannot be said to be like his, IF byresurrection is meant the physical reanimation or rejuvenation of the body back into this creation, as per Jesus’ resurrection. Paul clearly shows us this:

Rom 6:5For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection…

Further, it becomes obvious then that going to heaven when you die was NOT the focus of Christ’s resurrection – but rather the restoration of man to God in this life, in this world, right where Jesus was raised to newness of life. His resurrection, “according to the power of an endless life” [Heb 7:16] was a testimony and declaration that He was “the Son of God with power“ through the Spirit [Rom 1:4], and then entering the heavens himself, cleansing it on our behalf [Heb 9:23-24], that we in this life might enter before Him.

The bodily death that Jesus died was a death to sin, not to biological death [Rom 6:10]. It was the precursor of his ability to dethrone the power of sin, stripping it bare in defeat [1Cor 15:56]. Jesus came “that he might put away sin by the sacrifice of himself” [Heb 9:26]. In contradistinction to the covenantal death [relational death] Adam died in the garden, Jesus promised: “If anyone keeps my word, he shall never see death” [Jn 8:51]. When Jesus proclaimed: “I am the resurrection…” [Jn 11:25], the last thing he was referring to was any notion of physicality – resurrection was and is so much more.

In not perceiving the covenantal reality of ‘The Resurrection’ some may bemoan “where then is our hope!?” – to which I must reply – Our hope has been fulfilled, mankind has been redeemed and restored back to God; Heaven was never in doubt, only “self-righteous religion” ever said it was. John’s clarion call to the first-fruit saints “…we shall be like Him…” was to confirm to them that they would share in the glories of the soon to be fully accomplished New Covenant – what Jesus had established IN His Ministry, and ratified THROUGH His Cross, was consummated AT His Parousia.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 3, 2016)

If you do some research in the second death in Judaism at the time the writer of Revelation wrote his bit, the second death referred to the resurrection of the dead and that resurrection was a body or physical resurrection).

Just because Paul waxes that we will be raised imperishable spiritual bodies, does not mean that we will be raised as spirits and not physically.

 1 Cor. 1542 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

Glory of God and the glory of men (males) are not spiritual beings only in scripture. They are souls male and female.   And in the marriage union between a man and a women can not their physical bodies be spiritual. The married life raising the body to honor and power? Can  a marriage in the here and now sown in a natural body be raised a spiritual body, but a physical body non the less? Is the union of a man and women in marriage sacred? Are they physical and yet spiritual beings? That none should spring them apart? The body does not become spiritual when it is entwined in spiritual vows with it's creator?

And if this is the type of the bride that our Lord will come to on the day of judgement, well like the ancient jews believed our resurrection will be physical. Bodies ( physical) that were weak and perishable will be raise anew, and they will be as a return to Eden... where bodies (souls) lived in the eternal or eternally in their communion with our Lord.

Maybe...  I stand now with the majority view of the chosen people and  the people of faith as far back as I can tell.

But hey, I might be wrong, just like the writer of Revelation who waxes on the Second Death and physical resurrection. Because like me, that is what the dude is talking about...

PS I have edited some of my CensoredCensored out of this, if some already copied it. So for now I stand by this edition.


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## hobbs27 (Feb 3, 2016)

Gordon, I find mention of the second death in Revelation 21:8. It appears to me to be condemnation. I see no mention of physical bodies, am I missing something?


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## gordon 2 (Feb 3, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Gordon, I find mention of the second death in Revelation 21:8. It appears to me to be condemnation. I see no mention of physical bodies, am I missing something?



When the expression of  "second death" is used by people during the times ( generations) in which Revelation was writ apparently according to scolars* it meant banishment post the resurrection of the dead and the judgement of the living and the resurrected dead, ( not necessarily in this order) where death and sin and the dudes who play for the cheating team are destroyed completely once and for all and those who have overcome will walk away physically scot free.... as winners.


I will try to get the scholarly reference.....

Harry Sysling Teḥiyyat ha-metim: the resurrection of the dead in the Palestinian Targums (1996), p.222-"Here the second death is identical with the judgment in Gehinnom. The wicked will perish and their riches will be given to the righteous..."

Here is my source Wikipedia Acadamy : 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection_of_the_dead

 Harry Sysling, in his 1996 study of Teḥiyyat ha-metim (Hebrew: "resurrection of the dead") in the Palestinian Targums, identifies a consistent usage of the term "second death" in texts of the Second Temple period and early Rabbinical writings, but not in the Hebrew Bible. "Second death" is identified with judgment, followed by resurrection from Gehinnom ("Gehenna") at the Last Day.[44]


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## welderguy (Feb 3, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Welderguy, Sorry its taken so long to get back to this. As I was searching for a way to explain it to you, ( As I understand it) I stumbled  across something very interesting and I've been going back and forth on it with someone we might call a scholar. Anyway, I was hoping to have that resolved before I responded to this but its not, so I'll do my best to explain the already but not yet.
> As the Gospel was preached at Pentecost many were saved, by being saved they received eternal life. Christ covered the sin , that they may have full access to God.
> 
> I say they had full access because it is sin that separated man and God in the beginning. In the day Adam took of the fruit he died, ( spiritually) . Adam was never made to physically live forever, physical death is the natural order of God, not the curse of Adam.. Adam ate to sustain life, therefore he was always going to die a physical death.
> ...



So,if I understand you right(correct me if Im off base),you are saying the "dead in Christ" are only those that died during the time period between Pentecost and 70AD? And these "dead in Christ" are the ones spoken of by Paul in 2 Thess.4,who will rise first. 
You say,then those who were still alive at 70AD rose next?

Ok,but now I need you to tell me when the Old Testament saints rose. And also those after 70AD.

Before, you were saying the Old Testament saints rose with the ones that died between Pentecost and 70AD,right? And that strictly these made up the bride of Christ?

I'll stop here before I get more confused,in case Ive got some of this mixed up.


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## hobbs27 (Feb 3, 2016)

welderguy said:


> So,if I understand you right(correct me if Im off base),you are saying the "dead in Christ" are only those that died during the time period between Pentecost and 70AD? And these "dead in Christ" are the ones spoken of by Paul in 2 Thess.4,who will rise first.
> You say,then those who were still alive at 70AD rose next?
> 
> Ok,but now I need you to tell me when the Old Testament saints rose. And also those after 70AD.
> ...



The Christians in Thessalonica were concerned about their brothers that had died in Christ. The old testament saints had also received Christ and were dead in Christ, I just emphasised the 30-70 ad because those were the ones that had fallen asleep and troubled the remaining... 

 I'm still working on something, since you enjoy studying.. What do you make of the word rise? As in the dead in Christ shall rise first....The Greek word translated here doesn't necessarily or may never mean resurrection.
 What do you make of the word, using your concordance or interlinear?


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## welderguy (Feb 3, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> I'm still working on something, since you enjoy studying.. What do you make of the word rise? As in the dead in Christ shall rise first....The Greek word translated here doesn't necessarily or may never mean resurrection.
> What do you make of the word, using your concordance or interlinear?



Rise
From Strongs

anisthmi
Orig: from 303 and 2476; to stand up (literal or figurative, transitive or intransitive):--arise, lift up, raise up (again), rise (again), stand up(-right). G303

I disagree.I think it very much means resurrection in many texts,as seen in Luke 24:7

"saying, ‘The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.’”


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 3, 2016)

Jesus died so that we could have everlasting life. Define "everlasting life" considering that we will die a physical death.
When do we "rise again" into this "everlasting life?"


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 3, 2016)

We will see him as he is when he appears and become like him.
Jesus "is" eternal life.


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## hobbs27 (Feb 4, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Rise
> From Strongs
> 
> anistemi
> ...



Try anastesontai.


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## hobbs27 (Feb 4, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> We will see him as he is when he appears and become like him.
> Jesus "is" eternal life.



Yes. He is the resurrection.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 4, 2016)

But it's still tied in to "when Christ appears." Nothing seems to happen as far as us becoming "like Christ" until he appears.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17New International Version (NIV)

15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 

Now maybe this has already happened. If so then Christ has appeared and we are already "like Christ."
Personally I don't believe it has been revealed to me yet. I don't feel like this event of seeing Christ as he is has happened.


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## welderguy (Feb 4, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Try anastesontai.



Where is that used?


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## hobbs27 (Feb 4, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Where is that used?



1 Thess 4:16 according to biblehub.


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## welderguy (Feb 4, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> 1 Thess 4:16 according to biblehub.



I got G450 (anisthmi) from Strongs for both 1 Thess.4:16 and Luke 24:7.


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## hobbs27 (Feb 4, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I got G450 (anisthmi) from Strongs for both 1 Thess.4:16 and Luke 24:7.



Here:http://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/4-16.htm

 It's most likely a dead end. I don't think Acts 20:30 is a resurrection text but as my friend that knows much much more than I has pointed out that it's generally a figurative term meaning to stand again, or resurrect. So to see it in its literal meaning to rise, is not unusual.


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## welderguy (Feb 4, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Here:http://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/4-16.htm
> 
> It's most likely a dead end. I don't think Acts 20:30 is a resurrection text but as my friend that knows much much more than I has pointed out that it's generally a figurative term meaning to stand again, or resurrect. So to see it in its literal meaning to rise, is not unusual.



I don't believe it's figurative in Luke 24:7,because you and I both agree that Jesus literally arose(resurrected),...don't we?

Therefore,based on this,why would I think 1 Thess.4:16 is figurative?


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## hobbs27 (Feb 4, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I don't believe it's figurative in Luke 24:7,because you and I both agree that Jesus literally arose(resurrected),...don't we?
> 
> Therefore,based on this,why would I think 1 Thess.4:16 is figurative?



Yes we agree on Jesus physical resurrection.
The figurative portion is to stand again actually means to pass from death to life not literally stand.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 4, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Jesus died so that we could have everlasting life. Define "everlasting life" considering that we will die a physical death.
> When do we "rise again" into this "everlasting life?"



“As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more: but the righteous is an everlasting foundation.” 

I thought of you today Art when I read this. Also I might note that lately I have found out that righteousness is not a state as in being good for example, but it is a status as in being an elect or a individual of faith as per the faith of the saints ( Abraham etc...) Hope this  gets you  to a good place. 

So perhaps everlasting life is what happens to us when we are taken out of the "world" from the spiritual perspective of salvation and for believing and not at all for our physical death or something following death which takes us physically out of this world.... We are made righteous ( status) because of our salvation through our Lord's charity on the cross.


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## welderguy (Feb 4, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> 1 John 3:2
> Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
> 
> I think about this often. When will Christ appear? Does this mean we won't see Christ until he appears on the earth or New Jerusalem?
> ...



The more I read 1 John 3:1-2,(in the King James),the more I believe it's referring to seeing the Father(not Jesus) when it says " when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

1 John 3 (KJV)
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

This also makes more sense because we know that "no man hath seen the Father at any time".....yet.

thoughts?


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## hobbs27 (Feb 4, 2016)

Welderguy, I think if you keep reading through verse 8 you will agree it is about Jesus, the Son of God.


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## welderguy (Feb 4, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Welderguy, I think if you keep reading through verse 8 you will agree it is about Jesus, the Son of God.



I'm not so sure.It seems like the context from verse 1-7 is the Father. Then,the manifestation of Jesus is introduced into the context starting with verse 8.

verse 8 made me think of 1 Tim.3:16 where it says "...God was manifest in the flesh..."


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## hobbs27 (Feb 4, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I'm not so sure.It seems like the context from verse 1-7 is the Father. Then,the manifestation of Jesus is introduced into the context starting with verse 8.
> 
> verse 8 made me think of 1 Tim.3:16 where it says "...God was manifest in the flesh..."



It's a pleasure to see you thinking with an open mind. I'm sure you will resolve this soon.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 4, 2016)

welderguy said:


> The more I read 1 John 3:1-2,(in the King James),the more I believe it's referring to seeing the Father(not Jesus) when it says " when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."
> 
> 1 John 3 (KJV)
> 1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
> ...



Perhaps, many versions just say "when he appears." What about "when he is revealed?" Many versions say this instead. "When Christ is revealed."

I still believe it is Christ who is the topic.

Luke 17:30
"It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed.


Considering that Christ has already been on the earth as a man and has resurrected as a man or as a man's spirit, and having been seen as this man or spirit.
Why hasn't Christ already been revealed?

Now if we add to the discussion that Luke is talking about Christ appearing or being revealed during the destruction of Jerusalem, why haven't we already seen Christ as he is and became like him?


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 4, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> “As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more: but the righteous is an everlasting foundation.”
> 
> I thought of you today Art when I read this. Also I might note that lately I have found out that righteousness is not a state as in being good for example, but it is a status as in being an elect or a individual of faith as per the faith of the saints ( Abraham etc...) Hope this  gets you  to a good place.
> 
> So perhaps everlasting life is what happens to us when we are taken out of the "world" from the spiritual perspective of salvation and for believing and not at all for our physical death or something following death which takes us physically out of this world.... We are made righteous ( status) because of our salvation through our Lord's charity on the cross.



Thanks

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Made imperishable(righteous?) by the washing.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 4, 2016)

Could it be that Salvation through the Cross was one revealing from an appearance by Christ and what we will become is yet another revealing? This other revealing will only happen when we personally see Christ as he is and become like him. 
This other revealing will only happen when Christ appears. Whatever that means is yet another mystery.
Appears or is revealed?

First revealing;
2 Timothy 1:10
but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

Second revealing;
1 John 3:2
Beloved, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is.

Revealings with no clear word for an actual appearance;

Beloved, now we are the children of God, and it has not been revealed until now what we are going to be, but we know that when he has been revealed, we shall be in his likeness, and we shall see him just as what he is.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 4, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Thanks
> 
> 1 John 3:9
> Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
> ...



I said, " I hope "this" get you to a good place and you have to go here 1John 3:9.



All I want to say is that this verse can be used by the lost and the Devil himself is probably fond of quoting this verse to accuse the brothers and sisters that they indeed are not at all creatures of faith.

  As you point out the verse's orientation is  towards our righteous nature due to salvation. And  1 John 3 Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure a Christ.

Can I suggest that this purifying is the item that makes us sinless and that purifying is a saint's  sincere and painful repentance that he/she offended God. 


I am saying these things just in case some might suffer in fear that because they have sinned or sin even that they love our Lord dearly, they are irrevocably condemned as some can and have believed-- which is not at all the case. 



Peace bros.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 4, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> I said, " I hope "this" get you to a good place and you have to go here 1John 3:9.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hey, it's not my fault, I was lead there by Welderguy and Hobbs discussing who "He" was that will appear.

Peace and yes we must go through a glorification process.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 4, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Could it be that Salvation through the Cross was one revealing from an appearance by Christ and what we will become is yet another revealing? This other revealing will only happen when we personally see Christ as he is and become like him.
> This other revealing will only happen when Christ appears. Whatever that means is yet another mystery.
> Appears or is revealed?
> 
> ...



Somehow Art, at this exact time, this appears to make good sense to me. It appears to confirm what my walk in faith has so far revealed.


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## hobbs27 (Feb 5, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Perhaps, many versions just say "when he appears." What about "when he is revealed?" Many versions say this instead. "When Christ is revealed."
> 
> I still believe it is Christ who is the topic.
> 
> ...




Jesus gave signs of his appearing, ie 2nd coming. It was to happen at the destruction of the  Temple. Read Luke 21, especially here:

. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 5, 2016)

And they, the children of God, upon seeing the Son of Man coming in a cloud, saw him as he was and became like him?


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## hobbs27 (Feb 5, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> And they, the children of God, upon seeing the Son of Man coming in a cloud, saw him as he was and became like him?



If this is as I believe the wedding of the Bride and the Son, then yes , two became one body.


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## welderguy (Feb 5, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> If this is as I believe the wedding of the Bride and the Son, then yes , two became one body.



Do you believe Romans 8:23 is speaking of the bride?(body of Christ)

What about verse 11? The bride?

Reason I ask is because in verse 11,bodies is plural.


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## hobbs27 (Feb 5, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Do you believe Romans 8:23 is speaking of the bride?(body of Christ)
> 
> What about verse 11? The bride?



I believe the elect is the Bride.


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## welderguy (Feb 5, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> I believe the elect is the Bride.



Yes, but my question is: Is it the elect(Christ's bride) that is being spoken of in these two verses?


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## hobbs27 (Feb 5, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Yes, but my question is: Is it the elect(Christ's bride) that is being spoken of in these two verses?



The elect were those first century Christians. The body in verse 23 is in the singular not plural. The body spoken of in verse 23 in the new covenant Church body, so it does at this time appear to be speaking of the Bride. That is me on a whim just scanning over it at work.


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## welderguy (Feb 5, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> The elect were those first century Christians. The body in verse 23 is in the singular not plural. The body spoken of in verse 23 in the new covenant Church body, so it does at this time appear to be speaking of the Bride. That is me on a whim just scanning over it at work.



I know you're busy but when you get a chance,look at verse 11 and try to figure out why "bodies" is in the plural form.We know there's only one bride of Christ and only one body of Christ,which is the church.
Also Paul says they are "mortal" bodies.


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## hobbs27 (Feb 6, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I know you're busy but when you get a chance,look at verse 11 and try to figure out why "bodies" is in the plural form.We know there's only one bride of Christ and only one body of Christ,which is the church.
> Also Paul says they are "mortal" bodies.



I backed up to Romans 6 and read through to get a better grasp of the context. I don't think there is any better evidence in Scripture of an ( already) but ( not yet ) progressive resurrection of the first fruits.Rom. 8-23-25

 Romans 8:10-11 to be dead with him ...if Christ be in you ( the body is dead) because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
 See^^ This is not biological death, but death to the body of sin, and life in the spirit. The death determined at the Cross, to be crucified with Him ...yet biologically alive during the process.
 For the first fruits was a different resurrection process, because the old heaven and earth had yet been destroyed and the new had yet to come.

We shall be in the likeness of His resurrection. ( We = the first fruits)Rom.6:5

We shall live with Him v8

Who shall deliver me from this body of death( 7:24)

He shall also quicken your mortal bodies (   8:11)


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## welderguy (Feb 6, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> I backed up to Romans 6 and read through to get a better grasp of the context. I don't think there is any better evidence in Scripture of an ( already) but ( not yet ) progressive resurrection of the first fruits.Rom. 8-23-25
> 
> Romans 8:10-11 to be dead with him ...if Christ be in you ( the body is dead) because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
> See^^ This is not biological death, but death to the body of sin, and life in the spirit. The death determined at the Cross, to be crucified with Him ...yet biologically alive during the process.
> ...



Well I've never heard of a "progressive resurrection".I may need you to explain that a little more.

I know of only two types : one spiritual(Eph.2:1-7)
                                            one physical(like Jesus' resurrection Rom.6:5)


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## hobbs27 (Feb 6, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Well I've never heard of a "progressive resurrection".I may need you to explain that a little more.
> 
> I know of only two types : one spiritual(Eph.2:1-7)
> one physical(like Jesus' resurrection Rom.6:5)



6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Why do you say this is physical resurrection when the living are clearly saying through baptism they are dead and buried with Him?


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## welderguy (Feb 6, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> 6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
> 
> 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
> 
> ...



Because of the last statement in verse 5.It is in the future tense.

The previous verses are speaking of our "newness of life"(regenerated state,which is present),which,BTW,is spiritual resurrection.

See,he starts off talking about the "type" and ends up with the object which is pointed to by the type.

This is the way much of the bible is written.


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## hobbs27 (Feb 6, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Because of the last statement in verse 5.It is in the future tense.
> 
> The previous verses are speaking of our "newness of life"(regenerated state,which is present),which,BTW,is spiritual resurrection.
> 
> ...



5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

From Slaves of Sin to Slaves of God
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 Since I failed to see physical resurrection in the first five I'm looking at the rest...see it anywhere?


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## welderguy (Feb 6, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
> 
> 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
> 
> ...



Hint: Go through it and notice the tense(past,present,or future)

With the exception of the last two verses,which mention eternal life,verse 5 is the only one in the future tense. Why? Because the others are all speaking of either what has already happened(spiritually)in our hearts or how we should behave now that it has been done.

verse 5b :
 "certainly we also SHALL be in the likeness of His resurrection,"

What is the likeness of His resurrection? A physical bodily resurrection.


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## hobbs27 (Feb 6, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Hint: Go through it and notice the tense(past,present,or future)
> 
> With the exception of the last two verses,which mention eternal life,verse 5 is the only one in the future tense. Why? Because it's speaking of what has already happened(spiritually)in our hearts and how we should behave now that it has been done.
> 
> ...



If it wasn't for ( if ) in verse 5 I may agree with you, but when we read down to it, it is clear that they are speaking only of their spiritual resurrection and how it has changed them. In verse 5 the ( if) shows the contrast of those that have and those that have not been spiritually resurrected, ie saved. It goes perfectly with verse 4.

 I will go on to say no where will you find in Scripture that man has to be physically resurrected. It just isn't biblical.


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## hobbs27 (Feb 6, 2016)

1Cor. 15:46	However that which is spiritual was not first, but that which is natural, and afterward that which is spiritual.

 If there is a future physical resurrection, Paul got this wrong.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 6, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Hint: Go through it and notice the tense(past,present,or future)
> 
> With the exception of the last two verses,which mention eternal life,verse 5 is the only one in the future tense. Why? Because the others are all speaking of either what has already happened(spiritually)in our hearts or how we should behave now that it has been done.
> 
> ...



Where is this place where Jesus is right now in his physical body, sitting at the right hand of his spiritual Father?

I would assume it is a physical place, a New Jerusalem, a new Eden. I've often thought it might be a future earth but if Jesus is physically there already.

How is it possible for us to go there spiritually when we die a physical  death if this place is physical? If we go to a spiritual holding place when we die, how does the physical Jesus visit us? Does he leave his physical body in Heaven when he visits the spiritual Saints?

What part of our journey takes us to the point where we will see Christ as he is?


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## welderguy (Feb 6, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> If it wasn't for ( if ) in verse 5 I may agree with you, but when we read down to it, it is clear that they are speaking only of their spiritual resurrection and how it has changed them. In verse 5 the ( if) shows the contrast of those that have and those that have not been spiritually resurrected, ie saved. It goes perfectly with verse 4.
> 
> I will go on to say no where will you find in Scripture that man has to be physically resurrected. It just isn't biblical.



I take you back to John 5:25-29

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of dam nation.

Verse 25 and verse 28 illustrate what Ive been pointing out about the present and future tenses.

Verse 25 speaks of a spiritual resurrection that "now is"(present).
Verse 28 speaks of a physical resurrection that "is coming"(future).

My question to you is why the need for a "resurrection of dam nation",if it is not physical and there's no ECT,as you believe?


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## welderguy (Feb 6, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Where is this place where Jesus is right now in his physical body, sitting at the right hand of his spiritual Father?
> 
> I would assume it is a physical place, a New Jerusalem, a new Eden. I've often thought it might be a future earth but if Jesus is physically there already.
> 
> ...



I don't have those answers.I only know Jesus had a physical resurrected body that could be touched and that ate fish and honeycomb and that could also walk through walls.
When He ascended the angel said " this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 6, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I take you back to John 5:25-29
> 
> 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
> 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
> ...



Why is it a resurrection of those that have done evil instead of of a resurrection of those that didn't believe Jesus died for their evilness?
I mean when you think about it we're all evil. The only difference is grace.


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## hobbs27 (Feb 6, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I take you back to John 5:25-29
> 
> 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
> 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
> ...



Vs 25 and 28 contrast two groups not nature of resurrection.

 Why bring the dead out of hade? To face the second death. Remember the rich man that was in Hades in torments and Lazarus that was in Hades in Abraham's bosom? Lazarus would have been made spiritually alive to eternal life and the rich man would have come out to face the great white throne judgment and faced the second death.

Vs. 28 was not only the resurrection of the dead, and the harvest, but the great white throne judgment. 70ad


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## hobbs27 (Feb 6, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I don't have those answers.I only know Jesus had a physical resurrected body that could be touched and that ate fish and honeycomb and that could also walk through walls.
> When He ascended the angel said " this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."



 He disappeared on a cloud. He returned on a cloud. Nothing to do with physical body


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 6, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I don't have those answers.I only know Jesus had a physical resurrected body that could be touched and that ate fish and honeycomb and that could also walk through walls.
> When He ascended the angel said " this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."



Well then I can only assume we'll have to wait until he returns, in like manner,  to see him as he is and to become like HIM.


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## welderguy (Feb 6, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> He disappeared on a cloud. He returned on a cloud. Nothing to do with physical body



Here's another question to think about.I will continue tomorrow.It's been a good discussion,as usual.

What is the reason for these saints coming out of their graves? What was God showing us?

Matthew 27:50-54

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.


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## Israel (Feb 7, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> 1Cor. 15:46	However that which is spiritual was not first, but that which is natural, and afterward that which is spiritual.
> 
> If there is a future physical resurrection, Paul got this wrong.



If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. (Paul surely seems to be looking ahead)


There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;…

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.


For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:


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## hobbs27 (Feb 7, 2016)

Israel said:


> If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. (Paul surely seems to be looking ahead)


  Yes, but he's looking ahead in the near future as he has already obtained the already but not yet.



Israel said:


> There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;…


It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.




Israel said:


> Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
> 
> 
> For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:



 Jesus was promised a physical resurrection, it was said his body would not face decay, His body was three days in the tomb, what of Adams, Abraham's, Isaac's, Moses, that had been in graves for thousands of years..returned to dust? 
 The next verse you quote is not about the likeness of physical bodies, but ( if) they were resurrected as they said they already were, then they shall also be dead to sin.


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## welderguy (Feb 7, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Jesus was promised a physical resurrection, it was said his body would not face decay, His body was three days in the tomb, what of Adams, Abraham's, Isaac's, Moses, that had been in graves for thousands of years..returned to dust?



Then how do you explain the bodies of the saints which came out of the graves after Jesus' resurrection? Had they decayed? Were their bodies made whole again so they could walk into the city?

Also,Lazerus was said to have been stinking,yet he came forth and lived.How was this decay reversed?


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## hobbs27 (Feb 7, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Then how do you explain the bodies of the saints which came out of the graves after Jesus' resurrection? Had they decayed? Were their bodies made whole again so they could walk into the city?
> 
> Also,Lazerus was said to have been stinking,yet he came forth and lived.How was this decay reversed?



Martha assumed he stank for it had been four days.
 While Lazarus was raised and the saints that came out at the Cross is intriguing, the events were not the resurrection spoken of .


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 7, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Martha assumed he stank for it had been four days.
> While Lazarus was raised and the saints that came out at the Cross is intriguing, the events were not the resurrection spoken of .



We know those events weren't the resurrection spoken of because those individuals went on to eventually die again. 
No one has died and resurrected in an immortal spiritual body until Christ returns or when he returned.


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## welderguy (Feb 7, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Martha assumed he stank for it had been four days.
> While Lazarus was raised and the saints that came out at the Cross is intriguing, the events were not the resurrection spoken of .



I agree that it is not the resurrection of Jesus' second coming,but that wasn't my point.

The believability of a physical resurrection,the reversal of the natural decay process.The bringing of dust back to a human body.That's my point.


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## hobbs27 (Feb 7, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I agree that it is not the resurrection of Jesus' second coming,but that wasn't my point.
> 
> The believability of a physical resurrection,the reversal of the natural decay process.The bringing of dust back to a human body.That's my point.



Gotcha.
 Have you come up with an answer to 1 Cor. 15:46 ? 
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

 Did Paul have it wrong?


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## welderguy (Feb 7, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Gotcha.
> Have you come up with an answer to 1 Cor. 15:46 ?
> Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
> 
> Did Paul have it wrong?



No.Paul was right on the mark.He's comparing Adam to Jesus.Look at vs.47.


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## hobbs27 (Feb 7, 2016)

welderguy said:


> No.Paul was right on the mark.He's comparing Adam to Jesus.Look at vs.47.



 Yes, but this is resurrection text, and comparing physical life which ends in physical death in Adam....In Adam = old covenant

 Spiritual life which Christ gives is eternal life, or in Christ which = New covenant.

 Flesh is old covenant
 Spirit is new covenant.


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## welderguy (Feb 7, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Yes, but this is resurrection text, and comparing physical life which ends in physical death in Adam....In Adam = old covenant
> 
> Spiritual life which Christ gives is eternal life, or in Christ which = New covenant.
> 
> ...



I agree with all of that.No problems there.

Jesus said it Himself in John 6:63
 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."


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## Israel (Feb 8, 2016)

So, if I understand you correctly, Paul, who wrote of being raised with Christ to heavenly places, and yet still had a hope in attaining to "the resurrection", was speaking of what?
I am not sure if I am sensing a disdain for "the material" of which God has none, as it is His creation, in a confusion that mistakes anything material/"physical" for the fallen of flesh.
That we may know little to nothing of the material unsullied and made subject to corruption by the fall, does not exclude the restoration of such to its glorious state.

But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.


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## hobbs27 (Feb 8, 2016)

I think it is telling that John, which was with Christ in His ministry, was with Christ at the Cross, was with Christ at the ascension...did not know what Christ would be like at His return.
 Something must have happened from the ascension to His return? Or they knew that flesh could not enter heaven, either way 1 John 3:2 makes it evident that John did not expect Christ to return in the self same body He left in.

 Also , I think it is telling that John had just reminded them that they were in the last hour per 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[c] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 

 What was to happen at the end of the age? The wedding of Christ and the Bride. I believe those first century Christians being the elect ( chosen by the Father..as an arranged wedding) were to be His Bride.
Mark 10:88 and the two shall become one flesh’; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh.

 How much more like Him could they be ?


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## gordon 2 (Feb 8, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> I think it is telling that John, which was with Christ in His ministry, was with Christ at the Cross, was with Christ at the ascension...did not know what Christ would be like at His return.
> Something must have happened from the ascension to His return? Or they knew that flesh could not enter heaven, either way 1 John 3:2 makes it evident that John did not expect Christ to return in the self same body He left in.
> 
> Also , I think it is telling that John had just reminded them that they were in the last hour per 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[c] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
> ...




Was  is not for Paul  that Jesus was the head of the body, the church, well before 70 Ad? Is not in Paul's mystical reasoning, that the elect  and our Lord are one body, one flesh which continues to this day to feeds the flock and ministers that those called be taken out of the "world"?

 When I read this:
Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’* or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.

**”

 I read that the wiping away of every thear from their eyes is a work in progess...  and "that there will be no more death", well there is a bit of road yet to make. The old order of things is not passed away. And that for the individual who wrote this the events described don't have to be chronological.



"I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." For me this is still in effect through the church that is being ""prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband Christ in heaven." And one day "the sea" "of the old order" will be no more and all the righteous will be called and " they shall see his face: and his name shall be in their foreheads. ( Flesh and blood foreheads.)

" And the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

70 ad means nothing to my understanding of eschatology,my reasons might be anemic in presentation according to the standards of many, but I can only give you what I got or at the word "jump" for now this is my max.*


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## hobbs27 (Feb 8, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> Was  is not for Paul  that Jesus was the head of the body, the church, well before 70 Ad? Is not in Paul's mystical reasoning, that the elect  and our Lord are one body, one flesh which continues to this day to feeds the flock and ministers that those called be taken out of the "world"?
> 
> When I read this:
> Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’* or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.
> ...


*

Gordon, make no mistake. I respect your opinion . I once held that very view, but what I see in the very script you cite as the new heaven and earth is Eden restored.

 The curse of Adam was spiritual death ( separation from God)
 The old heaven and earth was the Old Covenant and Temple system. The only connection man had to God was through the high priest that could enter into the holiest place once a year, and even then he had to be pure and present a blood sacrifice. It was in that holiest place that man could connect with God since the curse of Adam and Adam being cast out of the holiest place ( Eden).

When the old was destroyed the new came down..Now we no longer suffer ( Spiritual Death) there is no more death! And while bad things may happen that make us cry we have a God that will comfort us one on one, and wipe away our tears!
 70 ad was the end of the age...there is no end to the new covenant age ..Ephesians 3:20-21.*


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## hobbs27 (Feb 8, 2016)

Death reigned from Adam to Moses. Rom. 5:14. Moses = old covenant therefore if the old covenant has been done away, Death reigns no more.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 8, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Gordon, make no mistake. I respect your opinion . I once held that very view, but what I see in the very script you cite as the new heaven and earth is Eden restored.
> 
> The curse of Adam was spiritual death ( separation from God)
> The old heaven and earth was the Old Covenant and Temple system. The only connection man had to God was through the high priest that could enter into the holiest place once a year, and even then he had to be pure and present a blood sacrifice. It was in that holiest place that man could connect with God since the curse of Adam and Adam being cast out of the holiest place ( Eden).
> ...



I'll walk with you a little as a friend and I will be myself with you. 


Quote:  [It was in that holiest place that man could connect with God since the curse of Adam and Adam being cast out of the holiest place ( Eden).] End Quote

This statement reminds me of one of my profs who would tell me " You sew a blanket statement as if you knew what you were talking about. "  

Now do you think I have insulted you. I have not. I know you can take it... and that you might venture to repent to paint water color over oil.

Ok here's my point: Man connected with God since the curse of Adam not only in His Holy Places. People were righteous before Jesus came. Jesus said I have not come for the righteous, but sinners... Can I venture to say sinner here might mean people with no genuine faith, not trust, not connection intimate or legal with our Lord? They had not affection, they loved not God,  and yet some not them, did have affection, love and trust.

And so it was, as it is, that some people could go without sinning following repentance, yet being able to sin again, they loved God more than their temptations to sin. 

And it is that God ministered to the great people of God, the ancients, but also to the little people who joined God in their simple prayers, in their affection for Him, in their day to day. 

The holiest place that God could connect with men and women then as now was in their hearts, those Jews who were circumcised inwardly, inside, as Christians today who are dead inwardly on the cross with our Lord and having discarded the garments of the old order not of the righteous, but the old order of sin which knowing well it is doomed, yet must find opening for hate to lust in the heart of man.

To Eden it is. The righteous one day will rise as one, all the righteous and they will return to it. Because there is no place like home and home is where the heart is, we shall be to Eden where sin will again be no more, because sin in my view is at its basic the forgetting of God in everything or anything we do.

And being a simple man, not really a man of books or ideas or doctrines-- my books and my ideas are the prayers of righteous man and God who answers prayers by golly has heard many a prayer of affection with affection demonstrated with all of a pilgrims  being... his soul, his God given spirit and his physical body. 

Burning bushes, rain prayed for and received, rest sought and received, music from heaven, bliss, sorrow heaped onto our Love, callings answered, signs, wonders, in St Emos fire the righteous know to call on the Lord and connect other than in the temple.

So... I have waxed a tarp, a canvas, sewed a sail, just because you made a blanket.... I don't know what to think of myself, except I'll walk with you brother... and I get these manic phases where I think people are listening... so I just go on and on...   Hope you don't mind.


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## hobbs27 (Feb 8, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> I'll walk with you a little as a friend and I will be myself with you.
> 
> 
> Quote:  [It was in that holiest place that man could connect with God since the curse of Adam and Adam being cast out of the holiest place ( Eden).] End Quote
> ...



 Yes I can take it. 

There is a new Temple you know? It's not made of hands. 
 And, no one was so righteous, nor will be so righteous that they can get to the Father without going through the Son. Jesus has cleansed us, His blood covers our sin. 

And all this discussion because John said he didn't know what Christ would be like when He returned.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 8, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> I'll walk with you a little as a friend and I will be myself with you.
> 
> 
> Quote:  [It was in that holiest place that man could connect with God since the curse of Adam and Adam being cast out of the holiest place ( Eden).] End Quote
> ...



Water over oil is allowable.

When one is a Preterist as Hobbs or a not a Trinitarian as I, we've learned to develop thick skin.

Perhaps your beliefs require a tad bit of works.

Anyway not needed in this thread by me but perhaps needed for me none the same;

Luke 5:32
I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Thanks


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## gordon 2 (Feb 9, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Water over oil is allowable.
> 
> When one is a Preterist as Hobbs or a not a Trinitarian as I, we've learned to develop thick skin.
> 
> ...



Art, I was looking at Honda's portable winch just last nite and not to haul out big game, but I was wondering would it haul out  my firewood. 

PS Repentance as a feature of righteousness... now that's somethin!


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## hobbs27 (Feb 9, 2016)

Romans 5:12-15
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.	
But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.


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## hobbs27 (Feb 9, 2016)

Ephesians 2:5

even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Just some blanket statements about death.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 9, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Ephesians 2:5
> 
> even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
> 
> Just some blanket statements about death.



Keep it up. Someday you'll have enough to open a Shop and Save. 

Here: Genesis 32:30  So Jacob called the place Peniel,* saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”*


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