# too hard to be atheist!



## Bob2010 (Jan 16, 2014)

Takes more time not be a Christian.  You have to spend all this energy trying to learn Gods word so you can try to prove its a lie. I love learning Gods word. Because I believe it. Then I can apply it to my life. Time spent in the word equals growth or something positive in my life. It takes more work and energy not to believe in God. If I was an Atheist I would just hunt, fish, and spend my time trying to do something that brings me pleasure. If I was going to study the word just to prove its wrong. I must already know its right and just be mad about it. Or else I would just go fishing.  Go do all those things to fix me that won't work.


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## Dr. Strangelove (Jan 16, 2014)

No, you're just not trying hard enough.


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## hummdaddy (Jan 16, 2014)

you can research for the literature from which the stories of the bible probably came from...it's written on stone and dates 16 centuries before Jesus was born...it mentions  who made us,who we replaced,and the great flood....

just if you want to expand your mind!!!


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## bullethead (Jan 16, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> Takes more time not be a Christian.  You have to spend all this energy trying to learn Gods word so you can try to prove its a lie. I love learning Gods word. Because I believe it. Then I can apply it to my life. Time spent in the word equals growth or something positive in my life. It takes more work and energy not to believe in God. If I was an Atheist I would just hunt, fish, and spend my time trying to do something that brings me pleasure. If I was going to study the word just to prove its wrong. I must already know its right and just be mad about it. Or else I would just go fishing.  Go do all those things to fix me that won't work.



Most atheists, agnostics and deists I know were full fledged Christians first. They just didn't buy what the Bible was selling. They came to their current beliefs because of their Bible study. Proving the Bible wrong is not hard at all, proving it right has been the challenge.


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## Bob2010 (Jan 16, 2014)

hummdaddy said:


> you can research for the literature from which the stories of the bible probably came from...it's written on stone and dates 16 centuries before Jesus was born...it mentions  who made us,who we replaced,and the great flood....
> 
> just if you want to expand your mind!!!



I don't want to expand my mind. Expanding my heart is more rewarding. Christ Loves us.


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## hummdaddy (Jan 16, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> I don't want to expand my mind. Expanding my heart is more rewarding. Christ Loves us.



i did that already!!! i wanted more truth to the matter

http://carm.org/christianity/christian-doctrine/let-us-make-man-our-image
"Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth,” (Gen. 1:26, NASB).
"Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever," (Gen. 3:22, NASB).
“Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech,” (Gen. 11:7, NASB)


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## Bob2010 (Jan 16, 2014)

bullethead said:


> Most atheists, agnostics and deists I know were full fledged Christians first. They just didn't buy what the Bible was selling. They came to their current beliefs because of their Bible study. Proving the Bible wrong is not hard at all, proving it right has been the challenge.



How does one experience true salvation and repentance and have a heart change that guarantees eternity with God in heaven. His walk here on earth brings God glory and his family is changed because of his decision.  Then suddenly his heart gets hard and he runs the other way. Just seems it takes even more effort not to believe after that experience.


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## hummdaddy (Jan 16, 2014)

did you get the US AND OUR IMAGE PART


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 16, 2014)

bullethead said:


> Most atheists, agnostics and deists I know were full fledged Christians first. They just didn't buy what the Bible was selling. They came to their current beliefs because of their Bible study. Proving the Bible wrong is not hard at all, proving it right has been the challenge.



Really?   Well you need to take a bow if you have proven the Bible wrong.  People have been trying to accomplish this feat since........well forever,  and YOU have done it.  Who would have thunk it.  One of our very own, and a local at that.  Well thanks for telling us first.  I know I feel privileged to have known of you before you made the big time.  Tell us, when are you going to break this to the rest of the world?  Oh never mind, no one would believe me if I told them anyway.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 16, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> Takes more time not be a Christian.  You have to spend all this energy trying to learn Gods word so you can try to prove its a lie. I love learning Gods word. Because I believe it. Then I can apply it to my life. Time spent in the word equals growth or something positive in my life. It takes more work and energy not to believe in God. If I was an Atheist I would just hunt, fish, and spend my time trying to do something that brings me pleasure. If I was going to study the word just to prove its wrong. I must already know its right and just be mad about it. Or else I would just go fishing.  Go do all those things to fix me that won't work.



Brother give it up.  Ain't you heard?  Bullet has found us out and is gonna expose all 2 billion of us as willing accomplices in a 6000 year old hoax.  It's over!  

In all seriousness.  Yeah it's got to be hard denying to your conscious and everyone else that what you know in your heart is true and others know is true is really a lie.  I guess that's one of the greatest gifts of becoming a believer; that sense of serenity that comes with making peace with the living embodiment of Truth, Jesus Christ.


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## Bob2010 (Jan 16, 2014)

hummdaddy said:


> i did that already!!! i wanted more truth to the matter
> 
> http://carm.org/christianity/christian-doctrine/let-us-make-man-our-image
> "Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth,” (Gen. 1:26, NASB).
> ...




Yes Adam bought the lie. Thought God was holding out on him. Something is better than this sinless perfect paradise walking with God and hanging with his smoking hot naked women Eve. Always something better. Then he stood there like a passive coward while his women ate the apple. Well if she doesn't die then the snake is right and I will eat it too. That was when sin entered this world and we were promised death and hardship in a fallen world. Also explains all the dead beat passive Dads and husbands afraid to lead in his home. Rather watch the ball game then teach their boys to be men. Men hiding behind their wife. Grown men that don't understand commitment. Adam could of acted like a man and said hey! God said don't eat it! Snake shouldn't of been in the garden in the first place.


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## drippin' rock (Jan 16, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> Yes Adam bought the lie. Thought God was holding out on him. Something is better than this sinless perfect paradise walking with God and hanging with his smoking hot naked women Eve. Always something better. Then he stood there like a passive coward while his women ate the apple. Well if she doesn't die then the snake is right and I will eat it too. That was when sin entered this world and we were promised death and hardship in a fallen world. Also explains all the dead beat passive Dads and husbands afraid to lead in his home. Rather watch the ball game then teach their boys to be men. Men hiding behind their wife. Grown men that don't understand commitment. Adam could of acted like a man and said hey! God said don't eat it! Snake shouldn't of been in the garden in the first place.




Never heard the garden fable quite like that before.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 16, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> How does one experience true salvation and repentance and have a heart change that guarantees eternity with God in heaven. His walk here on earth brings God glory and his family is changed because of his decision.  Then suddenly his heart gets hard and he runs the other way. Just seems it takes even more effort not to believe after that experience.



While it's undoubtedly true that many on here once at least called themselves Christians, it's a dubious claim at best.  That being said, I do believe it's possible to be saved and then turn your back on God, but make no mistake about it.  Very, very, very few people who do this do it out of a purely logical or evidential basis though most claim to.  Truth be told, and contrary to what has recently been sophmorically claimed, an individual can neither prove nor disprove God.  

The vast majority turn their back on God in order to pursue
an alternate lifestyle of some form or another.   It just sounds better to say "I walked away, because I found Christianity intellectually unsustainable." than to say "I wanted to pursue a hedonistic lifestyle that is incompatible with the teachings of Christ."   Pride truly does come before the fall.


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## rutnbuk (Jan 16, 2014)

Actually not true- fairly easy to be an Atheist especially in our time-the world we live in offers tons of options to intrigue and fascinate our little minds and bring us short term happiness over and over til the end.  Folks will even pay millions for 30 seconds of your mind on superbowl Sunday.  With that said it is also easy to 'rest' in and receive 'joy' in knowing Christ.  But if we want to talk about something hard- try to figure out how this sub forum even exist-a complete waste of time for both sides- guess I just wasted 30 seconds of my 'vapor of a life' typing this- dang.


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## bullethead (Jan 16, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Really?   Well you need to take a bow if you have proven the Bible wrong.  People have been trying to accomplish this feat since........well forever,  and YOU have done it.  Who would have thunk it.  One of our very own, and a local at that.  Well thanks for telling us first.  I know I feel privileged to have known of you before you made the big time.  Tell us, when are you going to break this to the rest of the world?  Oh never mind, no one would believe me if I told them anyway.



SFD, in all honesty, what little credibility you had with me  has lost it's merit with your "angel" sighting. I have what I need to come to my conclusions as you do yours. Let me know when you get your award for proving whatever nonsense you are claiming this week.


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## bullethead (Jan 16, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Brother give it up.  Ain't you heard?  Bullet has found us out and is gonna expose all 2 billion of us as willing accomplices in a 6000 year old hoax.  It's over!
> 
> In all seriousness.  Yeah it's got to be hard denying to your conscious and everyone else that what you know in your heart is true and others know is true is really a lie.  I guess that's one of the greatest gifts of becoming a believer; that sense of serenity that comes with making peace with the living embodiment of Truth, Jesus Christ.



Only 6000 years and 2 Billion? Drops in the bucket. What is it 30,000 denominations now?


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## bullethead (Jan 16, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> While it's undoubtedly true that many on here once at least called themselves Christians, it's a dubious claim at best.  That being said, I do believe it's possible to be saved and then turn your back on God, but make no mistake about it.  Very, very, very few people who do this do it out of a purely logical or evidential basis though most claim to.  Truth be told, and contrary to what has recently been sophmorically claimed, an individual can neither prove nor disprove God.
> 
> The vast majority turn their back on God in order to pursue
> an alternate lifestyle of some form or another.   It just sounds better to say "I walked away, because I found Christianity intellectually unsustainable." than to say "I wanted to pursue a hedonistic lifestyle that is incompatible with the teachings of Christ."   Pride truly does come before the fall.



The lady in purple told him this ^

Keep going......you are showing us all what you know and what you pretend to know.


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## bullethead (Jan 16, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> How does one experience true salvation and repentance and have a heart change that guarantees eternity with God in heaven. His walk here on earth brings God glory and his family is changed because of his decision.  Then suddenly his heart gets hard and he runs the other way. Just seems it takes even more effort not to believe after that experience.



Now back to someone that we can at least have a sensible conversation with...

I realized nothing is guaranteed and I do not "know", any more than you do, what brings God glory. Your version and my version differ....Unless God actually speaks to you directly I am assuming you are telling me what you THINK God wants and how God feels.


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## TTom (Jan 16, 2014)

Takes little effort at all to "be" an atheist, it only takes effort to try to convince anyone else their conclusions are in error and yours are correct.

I'm not an atheist, nor would I qualify as a christian. And I find it takes little effort at all to hold my own beliefs. I find great joy in my own spiritual practice, and sometimes enjoyment debating the various beliefs I encounter in the world. I c ertainly count the work done defending my beliefs valuable mostly in solidifying them but occasionally the enjoyment comes from changing them to reflect new evidence.

One is either growing or dieing, applies to spiritual/ philosophic life as much as it applies to biological life.


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## Bob2010 (Jan 16, 2014)

hummdaddy said:


> did you get the US AND OUR IMAGE PART



1 translation is a reference to the Trinity "Let us". 2nd translation is the " us " is used to denote majesty. Kings use plural form when speaking of themselves. The "in our image" is we have the ability to reflect his character in our love, forgiveness, kindness, and faithfulness.  We strive to be like him understanding we can't be perfect. Our self worth is based in this. Not the Idols that don't work like possessions, popularity, good looks, and accomplishments. Great opener to talk about Adam and Eve. Thanks for that.


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## Bob2010 (Jan 16, 2014)

bullethead said:


> Now back to someone that we can at least have a sensible conversation with...
> 
> I realized nothing is guaranteed and I do not "know", any more than you do, what brings God glory. Your version and my version differ....Unless God actually speaks to you directly I am assuming you are telling me what you THINK God wants and how God feels.



Its in the Bible. I know very little of the Bible. When I go there his words are in red. He speaks to all of us there. Guess what! He loves you.  A lot! Like died for you kind of love. He tells us what he wants in the Bible. We are not capable of knowing how God feels. He is perfect and our sin problem is a stark difference from what he feels. Why Christ came here to live as a man perfect and sinless in the flesh.


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## Bob2010 (Jan 17, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Brother give it up.  Ain't you heard?  Bullet has found us out and is gonna expose all 2 billion of us as willing accomplices in a 6000 year old hoax.  It's over!
> 
> In all seriousness.  Yeah it's got to be hard denying to your conscious and everyone else that what you know in your heart is true and others know is true is really a lie.  I guess that's one of the greatest gifts of becoming a believer; that sense of serenity that comes with making peace with the living embodiment of Truth, Jesus Christ.



I can't give it up man.  I mean the atheist remind of Solomon.  We all have this sin problem. Regardless of if they believe in God they have to know there first instinct is not usually the best option. Call it being a man or sinful nature we are all drawn to the things that are not best for us. So Solomon had more money than anyone.  I mean party hard living the large life. Tried the pursuit of knowledge. You know smarter than God and above his peers in any conversation.  He tried pleasure and leisure.  He tried sex with like 300 wives and 100 maids. He tried wine and partied until he couldn't anymore. No Idol outside of Christ and God brought contentment. Think he called it chasing the wind. Now that is a good name for the atheist forum page. Wind Chasers! One hundred something views on this thread.  Surely someone is tired of chasing the wind in a relentless search to win a battle Christ already won. Your covered brother! Admit your sin, tell Christ you believe he died for your sin. That he rose again and sent the Holy Spirit here to be with us and then went to be with God. Then do like bullet said.  Live to reflect Gods character.  Bring God glory and love like a man. Its as good as gets! Enjoy it! Maybe we will see you on the Christian page soon. Love to have you.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 17, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> 1 translation is a reference to the Trinity "Let us". 2nd translation is the " us " is used to denote majesty. Kings use plural form when speaking of themselves. The "in our image" is we have the ability to reflect his character in our love, forgiveness, kindness, and faithfulness.  We strive to be like him understanding we can't be perfect. Our self worth is based in this. Not the Idols that don't work like possessions, popularity, good looks, and accomplishments. Great opener to talk about Adam and Eve. Thanks for that.





> Our self worth is based in this.


YOUR self worth is based on this not OUR.
All of your posts reflect the same thing. YOU needed a god to make you fix what you considered a miserable life because you wouldn't or couldn't do it on your own.
And you think everybody is the same way. They aren't.


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## hummdaddy (Jan 17, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> While it's undoubtedly true that many on here once at least called themselves Christians, it's a dubious claim at best.  That being said, I do believe it's possible to be saved and then turn your back on God, but make no mistake about it.  Very, very, very few people who do this do it out of a purely logical or evidential basis though most claim to.  Truth be told, and contrary to what has recently been sophmorically claimed, an individual can neither prove nor disprove God.
> 
> The vast majority turn their back on God in order to pursue
> an alternate lifestyle of some form or another.   It just sounds better to say "I walked away, because I found Christianity intellectually unsustainable." than to say "I
> ...




that is not what i am saying at all...i am saying i took this invisible,non tangible being ,and made him a true being like us....do the research,but since i have announced it on this site it seems to have been buried by someone on the internet....hmmmmmm...it's here though


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## 660griz (Jan 17, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> Takes more time not be a Christian.


 More courage. More logic. Not more time. I put in my time on the pew. 





> You have to spend all this energy trying to learn Gods word so you can try to prove its a lie.


 If God would have a word, we could probably understand it. A book written by men, years and years after the fact hardly classifies as God's word. 





> I love learning Gods word. Because I believe it. Then I can apply it to my life.


 You believe the good stuff, ignore the bad stuff. 





> Time spent in the word equals growth or something positive in my life.


 Sorry you couldn't get that on your own. Like I stated before. Some folks need "someone' watching them all the time.  





> It takes more work and energy not to believe in God.


 Well, there is a nice reward for all that hard work.  





> If I was an Atheist I would just hunt, fish, and spend my time trying to do something that brings me pleasure.


 Hey, that's what I do. Well, my job takes a way a little but, it allows me to be able to hunt and fish. And Sunday mornings are some of the best times in the woods.  





> If I was going to study the word just to prove its wrong.


 No one that I know does this. Most, studied the bible assuming it was right, and then started thinking.  





> I must already know its right and just be mad about it. Or else I would just go fishing.  Go do all those things to fix me that won't work.


 If I knew the Bible was right, I certainly wouldn't be mad and I wouldn't be on this forum. Perhaps this forum wouldn't exist. Luckily for me, I have never been broken. My Dad taught me long ago. "Son, everything in moderation." So, I have never had a drug problem, violence problem, mental issues, etc. If I ever feel overwhelmed with life's petty issues, I immerse myself in the woods, the lake, or a really stupid movie. Another lesson from Dad was to only worry about things you can control. 

In a way you are correct. It does take effort to think about religion and death and all the other mysteries that humans have created from being self aware. Some folks take the easy way and just believe. Why try to figure it out and risk being wrong and go to he3!!? Just believe, nothing to loose. Easy peasy. Just like the Easy button of life. 

Once again, if God created me, then demands I worship him or be tortured for eternity, (some free will you got there), then it is on his loving soul to make darn sure I know he exist in order to make the right choice. I am not going to blindly worship anything...ever! God should know that.


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## 660griz (Jan 17, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> The vast majority turn their back on God in order to pursue
> an alternate lifestyle of some form or another.   It just sounds better to say "I walked away, because I found Christianity intellectually unsustainable." than to say "I wanted to pursue a hedonistic lifestyle that is incompatible with the teachings of Christ."



Just...Wow! You truly are evil.


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## bullethead (Jan 17, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> While it's undoubtedly true that many on here once at least called themselves Christians, it's a dubious claim at best.  That being said, I do believe it's possible to be saved and then turn your back on God, but make no mistake about it.  Very, very, very few people who do this do it out of a purely logical or evidential basis though most claim to.  Truth be told, and contrary to what has recently been sophmorically claimed, an individual can neither prove nor disprove God.
> 
> The vast majority turn their back on God in order to pursue
> an alternate lifestyle of some form or another.   It just sounds better to say "I walked away, because I found Christianity intellectually unsustainable." than to say "I wanted to pursue a hedonistic lifestyle that is incompatible with the teachings of Christ."   Pride truly does come before the fall.



This sounds like you are either using your usual assertion and assumption guess work OR talking from personal experiences based off of the amount of skeletons in your own closet.


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## drippin' rock (Jan 17, 2014)

hummdaddy said:


> did you get the US AND OUR IMAGE PART



Makes me think of Gollum.


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## drippin' rock (Jan 17, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> Its in the Bible. I know very little of the Bible. When I go there his words are in red. He speaks to all of us there. Guess what! He loves you.  A lot! Like died for you kind of love. He tells us what he wants in the Bible. We are not capable of knowing how God feels. He is perfect and our sin problem is a stark difference from what he feels. Why Christ came here to live as a man perfect and sinless in the flesh.



Why not?


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## HawgJawl (Jan 17, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> While it's undoubtedly true that many on here once at least called themselves Christians, it's a dubious claim at best.  That being said, I do believe it's possible to be saved and then turn your back on God, but make no mistake about it.  Very, very, very few people who do this do it out of a purely logical or evidential basis though most claim to.  Truth be told, and contrary to what has recently been sophmorically claimed, an individual can neither prove nor disprove God.
> 
> The vast majority turn their back on God in order to pursue
> an alternate lifestyle of some form or another.   It just sounds better to say "I walked away, because I found Christianity intellectually unsustainable." than to say "I wanted to pursue a hedonistic lifestyle that is incompatible with the teachings of Christ."   Pride truly does come before the fall.



My situation was the opposite of what you described above.  I was seriously considering becoming a preacher and I honestly can't imagine anyone seeking to be closer to God or live more Christ-like than I was at the time.  I spent a lot of time studying various aspects of Christianity.  I claimed the blessings and miracles promised by Jesus and had complete faith that God would deliver.

I did not walk away from God in order to pursue a hedonistic lifestyle.  My lifestyle did not change.  I walked away from organized religion when I realized that most of what I believed had been created by man.  That does not mean that I do not believe in God, nor does it mean that I have no morals or ethics.


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## Bob2010 (Jan 17, 2014)

drippin' rock said:


> Why not?



Well he obviously can be angry and vengeful while at the same time can love beyond what I am capable of. We studied last night in revaluations and supporting scripture that when you see him one day face to face that our sinful nature is such the opposite of Gods perfection that the natural response is to fall to the ground and worship. Even the creatures worship him when in Gods presence.  If we can't comprehend what heaven will be like once sin does not exist.  Than how can we begin to understand a Gods feelings that has always been without sin? His feelings are 1000 moves ahead of what we think and feel and are not tainted by sin.


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## 660griz (Jan 17, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> Than how can we begin to understand a Gods feelings that has always been without sin?



God impregnated a women that was engaged to another man. That's o.k.?


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 17, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> My situation was the opposite of what you described above.  I was seriously considering becoming a preacher and I honestly can't imagine anyone seeking to be closer to God or live more Christ-like than I was at the time.  I spent a lot of time studying various aspects of Christianity.  I claimed the blessings and miracles promised by Jesus and had complete faith that God would deliver.
> 
> I did not walk away from God in order to pursue a hedonistic lifestyle.  My lifestyle did not change.  I walked away from organized religion when I realized that most of what I believed had been created by man.  That does not mean that I do not believe in God, nor does it mean that I have no morals or ethics.



There's a world of difference in walking away from an organized religion and turning your back on God.  I did not equate the two.  What you have described is not a renouncement  of Christ,  so I'm not exactly how your situation applies to my previous post.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 17, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> My situation was the opposite of what you described above.  I was seriously considering becoming a preacher and I honestly can't imagine anyone seeking to be closer to God or live more Christ-like than I was at the time.  I spent a lot of time studying various aspects of Christianity.  I claimed the blessings and miracles promised by Jesus and had complete faith that God would deliver.
> 
> I did not walk away from God in order to pursue a hedonistic lifestyle.  My lifestyle did not change.  I walked away from organized religion when I realized that most of what I believed had been created by man.  That does not mean that I do not believe in God, nor does it mean that I have no morals or ethics.



One question if you don't mind.  You state 



> I honestly can't imagine anyone seeking to be closer to God or live more Christ-like than I was *at the time*.



Then



> I did not walk away from God in order to pursue a hedonistic lifestyle.  *My lifestyle did not change.*



These two seem to contradict each other.  Are you still unable to imagine anyone seeking to be closer to God or live more Christ-like than you?  If not, hasn't your lifestyle indeed changed.

I'm not judging, just pointing this out.

Also what denomination did you walk away from?  Just curious.


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## HawgJawl (Jan 17, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> These two seem to contradict each other.  Are you still unable to imagine anyone seeking to be closer to God or live more Christ-like than you?  If not, hasn't your lifestyle indeed changed.
> 
> I'm not judging, just pointing this out.
> 
> Also what denomination did you walk away from?  Just curious.



When I say that my lifestyle did not change, I mean that there was no observable difference in the manner in which I lived my life other than participating in fewer religious activities.  Strangers assume I am a Christian based upon my interaction with them and others.  I did not increase my participation in "wicked" activities as is the usual assumption (run away from God in order to indulge worldly pleasures).

And I was raised Southern Baptist.  I still attend church occasionally.  The main difference is in my motivation and belief as opposed to my observable actions.


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## Bob2010 (Jan 17, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> When I say that my lifestyle did not change, I mean that there was no observable difference in the manner in which I lived my life other than participating in fewer religious activities.  Strangers assume I am a Christian based upon my interaction with them and others.  I did not increase my participation in "wicked" activities as is the usual assumption (run away from God in order to indulge worldly pleasures).
> 
> And I was raised Southern Baptist.  I still attend church occasionally.  The main difference is in my motivation and belief as opposed to my observable actions.



Even to a Christian the observable stuff is not really the root. Whats happening at home or out of the eyes of others? Not saying you are doing anything at all. But it can be something like realizing I need to watch less tv and spend more time with my kids. Trying to live by a standard that brings God glory as apposed to getting by and maintaining a image. So the question for me is do you believe Christ died for your sins, rose again, and sits at the side of God in heaven? You don't have to be in a church to believe that and be Christian.


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## hummdaddy (Jan 17, 2014)

bob2010 said:


> you don't have to be in a church to believe that and be christian.




oh yes you do,says the holier than thou's!!!!


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## Bob2010 (Jan 17, 2014)

660griz said:


> God impregnated a women that was engaged to another man. That's o.k.?



 Easier to believe that than believe I originated from monkeys and the earth and all its living creatures your Dad taught you to love was formed by some chemical reaction. When there was no chemical unless God created that chemical. At least the bible is proven history.


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## Bob2010 (Jan 17, 2014)

hummdaddy said:


> oh yes you do,says the holier than thou's!!!!



Those people have no say in your salvation. The bible does say you should worship and gather.  Says church is important for sure. Not required for salvation though.


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## StriperrHunterr (Jan 17, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> At least the bible is proven history.



No more discussion can be had.


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## hummdaddy (Jan 17, 2014)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> No more discussion can be had.


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## StriperrHunterr (Jan 17, 2014)

hummdaddy said:


>



It can't be. Holding the Bible up as a 100% factual historical document is intellectually dishonest, and any further discussion devolves into arguments of belief and there can be no right/wrong, or accurate/inaccurate, decision on personal beliefs. 

I can accept that Jesus was a man, born in Nazareth, and did help many people. I can not accept that the Bible, as a singular source, is PROOF, factual proof, that he is sitting on a golden throne at the right hand of the Father, in Heaven. 

There is no proof, or there would be no mystery of faith. You can't have both, in a linear logic scenario. With proof the mystery vanishes, and if there's mystery then there can be no claim to proof. 

It is factual, and provable, that the Book says X happened, but there is no proof of the actual event.


----------



## Bob2010 (Jan 17, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> YOUR self worth is based on this not OUR.
> All of your posts reflect the same thing. YOU needed a god to make you fix what you considered a miserable life because you wouldn't or couldn't do it on your own.
> And you think everybody is the same way. They aren't.



Actually by the time I made a decision to accept salvation life was really good. I did believe in God at the time but not in Christ. What I needed to survive was something better than my own thoughts and beliefs.  Any God can do that for me. Years later life was good but I was stagnant.  Marriage was boring and my kids deserved more than what I could give them. I could justify any behavior or action because I decided what was right or moral. Gods word to live by along with salvation will overcome the miserable life and the simple growth issues. We all have a sin problem. Look at the porn industry, drug trade, alcohol sales, politics, and thats just the bad Idols. Look at the guy who misses his child grow up because he works 80 hours a week. Or the 400 obese people who can't stop eating.  We can't even get the good things like food and work right.  But all people have a desire to do what's not right. Thats a sin problem. Not saying you do any of those things but if you ever had a desire to do wrong than you have the same problem we all have. A sin problem.


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## hummdaddy (Jan 17, 2014)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> It can't be. Holding the Bible up as a 100% factual historical document is intellectually dishonest, and any further discussion devolves into arguments of belief and there can be no right/wrong, or accurate/inaccurate, decision on personal beliefs.
> 
> I can accept that Jesus was a man, born in Nazareth, and did help many people. I can not accept that the Bible, as a singular source, is PROOF, factual proof, that he is sitting on a golden throne at the right hand of the Father, in Heaven.
> 
> ...



i agree....they call me crazy,and i researched to find out where there bible stories came from to prove my theory....


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Jan 17, 2014)

hummdaddy said:


> i agree....they call me crazy,and i researched to find out where there bible stories came from to prove my theory....



I'm not trying to weigh an opinion on whether they should believe or not. I'm just stating a fact that a single source of information, with the absence of any possibility of knowing what's on the other side of the veil, is misrepresenting what facts, and truths, really are. 

If people would be totally, and dispassionately, honest about their beliefs then I would have 0 problem with any of it.


----------



## ambush80 (Jan 17, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> I don't want to expand my mind. Expanding my heart is more rewarding. Christ Loves us.





Bob2010 said:


> Easier to believe that than believe I originated from monkeys and the earth and all its living creatures your Dad taught you to love was formed by some chemical reaction. When there was no chemical unless God created that chemical. At least the bible is proven history.



Religion is ideal for you, my friend.


----------



## HawgJawl (Jan 17, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> Even to a Christian the observable stuff is not really the root. Whats happening at home or out of the eyes of others? Not saying you are doing anything at all. But it can be something like realizing I need to watch less tv and spend more time with my kids. Trying to live by a standard that brings God glory as apposed to getting by and maintaining a image. So the question for me is do you believe Christ died for your sins, rose again, and sits at the side of God in heaven? You don't have to be in a church to believe that and be Christian.



This was my attempt at defining "my lifestyle" which includes at home and behind closed doors.



HawgJawl said:


> When I say that my lifestyle did not change, I mean that there was no observable difference in the manner in which I lived my life other than participating in fewer religious activities.  Strangers assume I am a Christian based upon my interaction with them and others.  I did not increase my participation in "wicked" activities as is the usual assumption (run away from God in order to indulge worldly pleasures).
> 
> And I was raised Southern Baptist.  I still attend church occasionally.  The main difference is in my motivation and belief as opposed to my observable actions.



There is an inacurrate assumption that is commonly spread by Christians that a person cannot live a "Christ-like" life without being a Christian and the only reason that anyone would choose to not be a Christian is so that they can feel free to indulge their immense appetite for wicked worldy pleasures.


----------



## hummdaddy (Jan 17, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> This was my attempt at defining "my lifestyle" which includes at home and behind closed doors.
> 
> 
> 
> There is an inacurrate assumption that is commonly spread by Christians that a person cannot live a "Christ-like" life without being a Christian and the only reason that anyone would choose to not be a Christian is so that they can feel free to indulge their immense appetite for wicked worldy pleasures.



Exactly.... i am sure i am more christian than most....


----------



## Bob2010 (Jan 17, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> This was my attempt at defining "my lifestyle" which includes at home and behind closed doors.
> 
> 
> 
> There is an inacurrate assumption that is commonly spread by Christians that a person cannot live a "Christ-like" life without being a Christian and the only reason that anyone would choose to not be a Christian is so that they can feel free to indulge their immense appetite for wicked worldy pleasures.



I would agree with you that one can live well and make good moral decisions without being Christian.  Just seems there's no motivation without repentance or the Holy Spirit moving in your life not to indulge in worldly pleasures.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 17, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> Easier to believe that than believe I originated from monkeys and the earth and all its living creatures your Dad taught you to love was formed by some chemical reaction. When there was no chemical unless God created that chemical. At least the bible is proven history.



Can you name ONE scientist that says any human originated from a monkey?
The fact that you think that humans originated from monkeys shows you how much you do not know but only assume because of what others have told you...who also do not know.

Any time you want to show us the "proven history" of the Bible, try to use a source outside of the Bible to prove it....


----------



## HawgJawl (Jan 17, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> I would agree with you that one can live well and make good moral decisions without being Christian.  Just seems there's no motivation without repentance or the Holy Spirit moving in your life not to indulge in worldly pleasures.



From my experience, repentence or the Holy Spirit moving in the life of a person is about as effective a motivator to live Christ-like as a Christian marriage, joined together by God, is at keeping a person from cheating.

If you believe that the Holy Spirit has the power to make Christians resist sin, then why does it fail at this daily?


----------



## Bob2010 (Jan 17, 2014)

hummdaddy said:


> Exactly.... i am sure i am more christian than most....



That makes no sense.  Lets say you realize your own wants and desires will not get you where you want to be in this life or the eternity that follows. You choose salvation just like I did. We are both Christian now. I have myself another brother in Christ. What could possibly make my salvation more important than yours?


----------



## stringmusic (Jan 17, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> From my experience, repentence or the Holy Spirit moving in the life of a person is about as effective a motivator to live Christ-like as a Christian marriage, joined together by God, is at keeping a person from cheating.
> 
> If you believe that the Holy Spirit has the power to make Christians resist sin, then why does it fail at this daily?


It doesn't, we do.

I haven't read much of this thread, but I wanted to address this.


----------



## HawgJawl (Jan 17, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> It doesn't, we do.
> 
> I haven't read much of this thread, but I wanted to address this.



Then it is not a factor and should not be cited as one.


----------



## Bob2010 (Jan 17, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> From my experience, repentence or the Holy Spirit moving in the life of a person is about as effective a motivator to live Christ-like as a Christian marriage, joined together by God, is at keeping a person from cheating.
> 
> If you believe that the Holy Spirit has the power to make Christians resist sin, then why does it fail at this daily?



Back to free will again.  Just because he is here and stirring in people's hearts does not mean people don't have free will or choose sin.


----------



## HawgJawl (Jan 17, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> Back to free will again.  Just because he is here and stirring in people's hearts does not mean people don't have free will or choose sin.



When you say He is here and stirring in people's hearts, I assume you are speaking of everyone and not just Christians.

If so, the Holy Spirit would not provide any more motivation for Christains than He does for everyone else to resist wicked activities.



Bob2010 said:


> I would agree with you that one can live well and make good moral decisions without being Christian.  Just seems there's no motivation without repentance or the Holy Spirit moving in your life not to indulge in worldly pleasures.


----------



## WaltL1 (Jan 17, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> I would agree with you that one can live well and make good moral decisions without being Christian.  Just seems there's no motivation without repentance or the Holy Spirit moving in your life not to indulge in worldly pleasures.


I repeat -


> because you wouldn't or couldn't do it on your own.


So if this is true  -


> Just seems there's no motivation without repentance or the Holy Spirit moving in your life not to indulge in worldly pleasures.


How do you explain this -


> I would agree with you that one can live well and make good moral decisions without being Christian.


----------



## Bob2010 (Jan 17, 2014)

bullethead said:


> Can you name ONE scientist that says any human originated from a monkey?
> The fact that you think that humans originated from monkeys shows you how much you do not know but only assume because of what others have told you...who also do not know.
> 
> Any time you want to show us the "proven history" of the Bible, try to use a source outside of the Bible to prove it....



My apologies.  I simply had no idea that you had it figured out where we and all of creation came from. Please inform me of your factual findings of creation. Maybe your way is more believable. What would your source for your creation story be?


----------



## hummdaddy (Jan 17, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> That makes no sense.  Lets say you realize your own wants and desires will not get you where you want to be in this life or the eternity that follows. You choose salvation just like I did. We are both Christian now. I have myself another brother in Christ. What could possibly make my salvation more important than yours?



the way people present themselves and represent themselves according to the bible are two different things that i have seen!!!No No:

that is what i am talking about...


----------



## Bob2010 (Jan 17, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> I repeat -
> 
> So if this is true  -
> 
> How do you explain this -



With the Holy Spirit your motivation is not just about right now. Your looking at how your decisions effect eternity.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Jan 17, 2014)

660griz said:


> God impregnated a women that was engaged to another man. That's o.k.?


LOL, that is the best one of the week


----------



## Bob2010 (Jan 17, 2014)

hummdaddy said:


> the way people present themselves and represent themselves according to the bible are two different things that i have seen!!!No No:
> 
> that is what i am talking about...



Christians are not perfect.  We are sinners too. But you can't chunk us all in the same category.


----------



## Bob2010 (Jan 17, 2014)

You guys wore me down. I'm tired now. I rename this thread. Its too hard to talk with an atheist! God loves us. Christ died for our sins. He rose again and that is a good thing.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 17, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> With the Holy Spirit your motivation is not just about right now. Your looking at how your decisions effect eternity.


Bob, I know you mean well but its pretty obvious you can only see with "religion tunnel vision".
As an example -


> Your looking at how your decisions effect eternity.


You get that you are talking to a group of people that don't believe there is a heaven or a he11 right?
You insisting there is isn't going to change that. 
So instead of just insisting what else ya got?


----------



## hummdaddy (Jan 17, 2014)

hummdaddy said:


> Exactly.... i am sure i am more christian than most....





Bob2010 said:


> Christians are not perfect.  We are sinners too. But you can't chunk us all in the same category.



i said most!!! i was raised Christian,and now i claim deist because i  BELIEVE God was aliens(Anniwakii)....i saw a ship when i was younger,and i researched the stories of the bible to literature written on stone 16 centuries before Jesus was born to confirm it...we have primates up to man except the missing link,and that is why i think aliens jump started the human race from apes with experiments....


notice us and our in the verse

http://biblehub.com/genesis/1-26.htm
King James Bible
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 17, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> My apologies.  I simply had no idea that you had it figured out where we and all of creation came from. Please inform me of your factual findings of creation. Maybe your way is more believable. What would your source for your creation story be?



No one said I did have it all figured out but you are really doing yourself a genuine disservice by not checking into what are some of the most plausible possibilities.
NONE of them involve people evolving from a monkey.

What I do know is that there was an explosion of energy some 13.7 Billion years ago. It took Billions upon Billions of years for our Universe to form. In the process there are literally TEN THOUSAND BILLION-BILLION stars all with planets around them just like our Sun has.
I don't know WHO Created the Bang.
I don't know if anyone or anything HAD to create the bang.
I do know humans have been around long before 6000 years...which 10,000 years ago is about the time human intelligence evolved enough to where we could start to be considered "modern" where we used agriculture and animals to our advantage. About 6000 years ago humans gathered together enough to form organized States/Regions. We advanced enough 6000 years ago to start writing down our thoughts. No coincidence that is about the time the first God(s) showed up with their handbooks for us to follow.


----------



## HawgJawl (Jan 17, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> With the Holy Spirit your motivation is not just about right now. Your looking at how your decisions effect eternity.



Which do you believe to be the better (more Christ-like) motivation to do good:

(A)  Do good because someone is watching and there will be a judgement later resulting in either reward or punishment,

or

(B)  Do good because in your heart you think it is the right thing to do.


----------



## hummdaddy (Jan 17, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> Which do you believe to be the better (more Christ-like) motivation to do good:
> 
> (A)  Do good because someone is watching and there will be a judgement later resulting in either reward or punishment,
> 
> ...



use common sense


----------



## Bob2010 (Jan 17, 2014)

hummdaddy said:


> use common sense



I pick option c: I started this thread because I do genuinely believe in Christ, the Holy Spirit, and God. I would love more than anything for someone to find this thread and decide its time to consider salvation as there path. That being said there was a part of me just wanting to stir the pot. That part of me is now tired. It was wrong for me to stir the pot. I will leave you guys with your beliefs now. Trying to live like Christ has been more rewarding and has impacted family in such a positive way that I will never turn back to an idol God or a no God belief. I am blessed! So glad my way and concepts of God did not work. Being weak and finding strength and direction in Christ is the best decision I ever made.


----------



## drippin' rock (Jan 17, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> I pick option c: I started this thread because I do genuinely believe in Christ, the Holy Spirit, and God. I would love more than anything for someone to find this thread and decide its time to consider salvation as there path. That being said there was a part of me just wanting to stir the pot. That part of me is now tired. It was wrong for me to stir the pot. I will leave you guys with your beliefs now. Trying to live like Christ has been more rewarding and has impacted family in such a positive way that I will never turn back to an idol God or a no God belief. I am blessed! So glad my way and concepts of God did not work. Being weak and finding strength and direction in Christ is the best decision I ever made.



People love their families and have positive impacts daily without having to give credit to a god. Just because you needed a story to motivate you doesn't mean others do, and it certainly doesn't condemn them to h e l l if they don't believe like you.


----------



## Bob2010 (Jan 18, 2014)

drippin' rock said:


> People love their families and have positive impacts daily without having to give credit to a god. Just because you needed a story to motivate you doesn't mean others do, and it certainly doesn't condemn them to h e l l if they don't believe like you.



I agree with everything you said except the last part. I believe in the h e l l . You don't.  I can expect that on the atheist forum. Which is why my motives were not 100% good by stirring the pot.


----------



## WaltL1 (Jan 18, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> I agree with everything you said except the last part. I believe in the h e l l . You don't.  I can expect that on the atheist forum. Which is why my motives were not 100% good by stirring the pot.


I wouldn't get too worked up over it Bob. You told a story, avoided most of the questions you were asked, got tired and quit. That's pretty amateur pot stirring.
So instead of that why don't you use some facts to back up what you are saying? Something more than just a story. Something that as you said " I would love more than anything for someone to find this thread and decide its time to consider salvation as there path". 
We are all open to having our minds changed but its going to take more than stories and pot stirring to accomplish that. So what else ya got?


----------



## Bob2010 (Jan 18, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> I wouldn't get too worked up over it Bob. You told a story, avoided most of the questions you were asked, got tired and quit. That's pretty amateur pot stirring.
> So instead of that why don't you use some facts to back up what you are saying? Something more than just a story. Something that as you said " I would love more than anything for someone to find this thread and decide its time to consider salvation as there path".
> We are all open to having our minds changed but its going to take more than stories and pot stirring to accomplish that. So what else ya got?



Ok. I am bad at stirring the pot. That's probably a good thing since I should not have done it in the first place. If I am wrong about Christ then I can look back at my life that was filled with me being the best father and husband I can be. I left a legacy behind for my boys to live by and be proud of. Gave them purpose , love, and values. If I am right eternity will be tough to say the least for you. I have nothing to loose and everything to gain. As for my story being a waist of time. You can't have any real impact on anybody beating them with a bible verse or out thinking them. Something a little more personal like experience is how you reach people. That's my experience that is in this thread. While it has no value or makes me appear weak to someone who refuses to acknowledge God. It is the greatest source of strength to those who want something different. Someone who is tired of living without a God. Someone who knows God is real and knows there own ways are not working anymore. Its hope for someone. Even if its not hope for you. No need to attack it. I am not sure even a mountain being moved across the country would even convince you God is real. But yes I am tired and want to quit this thread now.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 18, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> Ok. I am bad at stirring the pot. That's probably a good thing since I should not have done it in the first place. If I am wrong about Christ then I can look back at my life that was filled with me being the best father and husband I can be. I left a legacy behind for my boys to live by and be proud of. Gave them purpose , love, and values. If I am right eternity will be tough to say the least for you. I have nothing to loose and everything to gain. As for my story being a waist of time. You can't have any real impact on anybody beating them with a bible verse or out thinking them. Something a little more personal like experience is how you reach people. That's my experience that is in this thread. While it has no value or makes me appear weak to someone who refuses to acknowledge God. It is the greatest source of strength to those who want something different. Someone who is tired of living without a God. Someone who knows God is real and knows there own ways are not working anymore. Its hope for someone. Even if its not hope for you. No need to attack it. I am not sure even a mountain being moved across the country would even convince you God is real. But yes I am tired and want to quit this thread now.



If it is not "our" way and it is not "your" way then eternity might be a little rough for you too.


----------



## hummdaddy (Jan 18, 2014)

bob2010 said:


> ok. I am bad at stirring the pot. That's probably a good thing since i should not have done it in the first place. If i am wrong about christ then i can look back at my life that was filled with me being the best father and husband i can be. I left a legacy behind for my boys to live by and be proud of. Gave them purpose , love, and values. If i am right eternity will be tough to say the least for you. I have nothing to loose and everything to gain. As for my story being a waist of time. You can't have any real impact on anybody beating them with a bible verse or out thinking them. Something a little more personal like experience is how you reach people. That's my experience that is in this thread. While it has no value or makes me appear weak to someone who refuses to acknowledge god. It is the greatest source of strength to those who want something different. Someone who is tired of living without a god. Someone who knows god is real and knows there own ways are not working anymore. Its hope for someone. Even if its not hope for you. No need to attack it. I am not sure even a mountain being moved across the country would even convince you god is real. But yes i am tired and want to quit this thread now.



i went beyond that,believe somewhat the same as you,and identified god....what happens to me for finding out the truth of the bible?


----------



## WaltL1 (Jan 18, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> Ok. I am bad at stirring the pot. That's probably a good thing since I should not have done it in the first place. If I am wrong about Christ then I can look back at my life that was filled with me being the best father and husband I can be. I left a legacy behind for my boys to live by and be proud of. Gave them purpose , love, and values. If I am right eternity will be tough to say the least for you. I have nothing to loose and everything to gain. As for my story being a waist of time. You can't have any real impact on anybody beating them with a bible verse or out thinking them. Something a little more personal like experience is how you reach people. That's my experience that is in this thread. While it has no value or makes me appear weak to someone who refuses to acknowledge God. It is the greatest source of strength to those who want something different. Someone who is tired of living without a God. Someone who knows God is real and knows there own ways are not working anymore. Its hope for someone. Even if its not hope for you. No need to attack it. I am not sure even a mountain being moved across the country would even convince you God is real. But yes I am tired and want to quit this thread now.


Never said your story was a waste of time Bob. It sounds like you are a much better husband and father than you were before. I respect that. I even commented before that I know you mean well. It was some of your other statements that threw you off track. 
All we did was ask you some tough questions Bob. 
You should have expected that.


----------



## drippin' rock (Jan 19, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> Never said your story was a waste of time Bob. It sounds like you are a much better husband and father than you were before. I respect that. I even commented before that I know you mean well. It was some of your other statements that threw you off track.
> All we did was ask you some tough questions Bob.
> You should have expected that.



I agree. If a person needs to believe in a higher power to turn their life around, then go for it.  But don't think for a second that your chosen idiology is the only way. It ain't.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 19, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> While it's undoubtedly true that many on here once at least called themselves Christians, it's a dubious claim at best.  That being said, I do believe it's possible to be saved and then turn your back on God, but make no mistake about it.  Very, very, very few people who do this do it out of a purely logical or evidential basis though most claim to.  Truth be told, and contrary to what has recently been sophmorically claimed, an individual can neither prove nor disprove God.
> 
> The vast majority turn their back on God in order to pursue
> an alternate lifestyle of some form or another.   It just sounds better to say "I walked away, because I found Christianity intellectually unsustainable." than to say "I wanted to pursue a hedonistic lifestyle that is incompatible with the teachings of Christ."   Pride truly does come before the fall.



I doubt very few Christians follow this way of thinking.
If this was the case, the same could be said for all un-believers, they just don't see the "Light." Many Atheist were once true believers and for whatever reason, stopped believing. They fell out of love with God, just as some people fall out of love with their wife. It's not a great mystery. They didn't become Atheist to pursue an alternative lifestyle. We got plenty of so called Christians that pursue alternative lifestyles.
The easiest thing to believe in would be "predestination" regardless of religion or lack there of. I wish I did believe in predestination. Maybe I was predestined to believe in free will.


----------



## Bob2010 (Jan 19, 2014)

bullethead said:


> If it is not "our" way and it is not "your" way then eternity might be a little rough for you too.



Rotting and decaying underground.  Hope my soul is not there for that. There's more for me and for you if you choose Christ.


----------



## Bob2010 (Jan 19, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> Never said your story was a waste of time Bob. It sounds like you are a much better husband and father than you were before. I respect that. I even commented before that I know you mean well. It was some of your other statements that threw you off track.
> All we did was ask you some tough questions Bob.
> You should have expected that.



Some implied earlier that I needed to story to believe in God. May not have been you. I did expect hard questions but after like 70 threads I realized my answers were not going to impact anyone here or even open there minds to something different Like Christ.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 19, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> Rotting and decaying underground.  Hope my soul is not there for that. There's more for me and for you if you choose Christ.



The Christ thing didn't work out for me. It is as if you are so set in religious tunnel vision you totally disregard the information you have and spout the Jesus stuff like a broken record. I have been there and done that Jesus stuff....it is not for me. If it was as good as you think it is and perfect for everyone there would be no other religions or non-believers. It's like eating gorgonzola cheese.....I don't like it and no matter how much another person does.. them telling me to keep trying it isn't going to change the taste.

You seem to think that there are two options after death.
1. Dead and rotting in ground
or
2. Christian Heaven

what if there is a 3rd,4th,5th....100th possibility that you did not prepare for?


----------



## bullethead (Jan 19, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> Some implied earlier that I needed to story to believe in God. May not have been you. I did expect hard questions but after like 70 threads I realized my answers were not going to impact anyone here or even open there minds to something different Like Christ.



It must have taken #80 posts for you to realize that because in post #79 you were still telling me to choose Christ. 
Are you a politician?? lololol


----------



## Bob2010 (Jan 19, 2014)

drippin' rock said:


> I agree. If a person needs to believe in a higher power to turn their life around, then go for it.  But don't think for a second that your chosen idiolgy is the only way. It ain't.



I agree with the higher power statement.  It takes something greater than ones own thoughts and beliefs to make big life changes.  Let me be clear that I do not judge you guys that do not believe in Christ. I sin just as you guys sin. The only difference is that I am forgiven through Christ. My experience with a higher power is this. You surrender that your own ways are not working.  You seek something greater than your own thoughts, actions, and wants for sanity. The issue becomes if you create your own God. Then try to live by that Gods standards you are spinning your wheels. You can justify any thought or behavior because you created your own God. You create your own standards of living and whats acceptable as far as behavior.  You can't be your own higher power and be effective long term. I will say I wish the Christians I know were as knowledgeable about the bible as the atheist are. I wish even more that you guys that know it so well had the heart change brought on by the Holy Spirit leading you to salvation.  You would make awesome Christians! I want to learn more about Gods Words because I should know it as well as you guys. That being said I pray that my heart never get hard and I continue to seek Christ and love my family the way he teaches me to. Not judging or questioning  the word but just applying it to my life. Its so much more productive and satisfying.


----------



## ambush80 (Jan 19, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> I agree with the higher power statement.  It takes something greater than ones own thoughts and beliefs to make big life changes.  Let me be clear that I do not judge you guys that do not believe in Christ. I sin just as you guys sin. The only difference is that I am forgiven through Christ. My experience with a higher power is this. You surrender that your own ways are not working.  You seek something greater than your own thoughts, actions, and wants for sanity. The issue becomes if you create your own God. Then try to live by that Gods standards you are spinning your wheels. You can justify any thought or behavior because you created your own God. You create your own standards of living and whats acceptable as far as behavior.  You can't be your own higher power and be effective long term. I will say I wish the Christians I know were as knowledgeable about the bible as the atheist are. I wish even more that you guys that know it so well had the heart change brought on by the Holy Spirit leading you to salvation.  You would make awesome Christians! I want to learn more about Gods Words because I should know it as well as you guys. That being said I pray that my heart never get hard and I continue to seek Christ and love my family the way he teaches me to. Not judging or questioning  the word but just applying it to my life. Its so much more productive and satisfying.



Do you remember being a kid and thinking "I shouldn't do that.  If mom and dad find out they'll whoop me"?  Remember the first time you thought "I shouldn't do that because I know better"?


----------



## stringmusic (Jan 19, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> Then it is not a factor and should not be cited as one.


"We" are the problem, not the HS, that doesn't make it a non factor.


----------



## HawgJawl (Jan 19, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> "We" are the problem, not the HS, that doesn't make it a non factor.



I agree that man is the failure.  Man sins.  The Holy Spirit moves in people's lives and still we sin.  

I was responding to the statement that without the Holy Spirit moving in your life, what motivation is there to resist worldly pleasures.  

First, I don't believe that the Holy Spirit only works in the lives of Christians, which would mean that everyone has that same motivation, even Athiests.

Second, I don't believe the Holy Spirit provides some supernatural ability to resist sin.  If the Holy Spirit is supposed to be providing a supernatural ability to resist sin, then He is failing.


----------



## Terminal Idiot (Jan 19, 2014)

Let's get something positive out of this dead horse beating thread.

There:
I put your peanut butter and bologna sandwich over there.

Their:
My kids like their peanut butter and bologna sandwich with the crust cut off.


----------



## Dr. Strangelove (Jan 19, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> Some implied earlier that I needed to story to believe in God. May not have been you. I did expect hard questions but after like 70 threads I realized my answers were not going to impact anyone here or even open there minds to something different Like Christ.



Eh, don't worry, they all do it.  Git all ate up with the Jesus, somebody tells them them need to witness, they jump on here all full of fire and vinegar.  You lasted longer than most.  Congratulations on your happiness.


----------



## Bob2010 (Jan 19, 2014)

Dr. Strangelove said:


> Eh, don't worry, they all do it.  Git all ate up with the Jesus, somebody tells them them need to witness, they jump on here all full of fire and vinegar.  You lasted longer than most.  Congratulations on your happiness.



Thanks man! Nobody told me to witness to you guys. In fact people told me not too. Which is probably why I tried.  Won't always be happy. Be cool if that were true. No promise of that. Hardship will happen. That is promised in his word. I guess fire and vinegar is better than living for nothing.


----------



## vowell462 (Jan 19, 2014)

I just drank three beers reading this whole thread.....dang wicked worldly pleasures.....


----------



## centerpin fan (Jan 19, 2014)

vowell462 said:


> I just drank three beers reading this whole thread.....


----------



## Bob2010 (Jan 19, 2014)

vowell462 said:


> I just drank three beers reading this whole thread.....dang wicked worldly pleasures.....



Nobody said Christians can't have a cold beer!


----------



## Four (Jan 20, 2014)

Is it just me or is this basically what the OP is saying..


----------



## BT Charlie (Jan 20, 2014)

Pretty much you, 4.


----------



## JB0704 (Jan 20, 2014)

vowell462 said:


> I just drank three beers reading this whole thread.....dang wicked worldly pleasures.....



Nothing wrong with beer.....unless you are drinking wheat beer.  There's gotta be something in the Bible against that mess.......


----------



## bullethead (Jan 20, 2014)

Four said:


> Is it just me or is this basically what the OP is saying..



I even wonder how many have read the one book instead of just the feel good favorite parts while skimming over the rest.


----------



## 660griz (Jan 20, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> Easier to believe that than believe I originated from monkeys and the earth and all its living creatures your Dad taught you to love was formed by some chemical reaction. When there was no chemical unless God created that chemical. At least the bible is proven history.



I didn't ask whether you believed it or not. I know you believe it. I asked if it was o.k.


----------



## Bob2010 (Jan 20, 2014)

bullethead said:


> The Christ thing didn't work out for me. It is as if you are so set in religious tunnel vision you totally disregard the information you have and spout the Jesus stuff like a broken record. I have been there and done that Jesus stuff....it is not for me. If it was as good as you think it is and perfect for everyone there would be no other religions or non-believers. It's like eating gorgonzola cheese.....I don't like it and no matter how much another person does.. them telling me to keep trying it isn't going to change the taste.
> 
> You seem to think that there are two options after death.
> 1. Dead and rotting in ground
> ...


----------



## bullethead (Jan 20, 2014)

bullethead said:


> The Christ thing didn't work out for me. It is as if you are so set in religious tunnel vision you totally disregard the information you have and spout the Jesus stuff like a broken record. I have been there and done that Jesus stuff....it is not for me. If it was as good as you think it is and perfect for everyone there would be no other religions or non-believers. It's like eating gorgonzola cheese.....I don't like it and no matter how much another person does.. them telling me to keep trying it isn't going to change the taste.
> 
> You seem to think that there are two options after death.
> 1. Dead and rotting in ground
> ...





Bob2010 said:


> Then life here on earth was good anyway. As much as as I heard about a loving God would never condemn someone to h e l l for eternity in my life from non Christians. My belief is he will condemn people to h e l l. If I'm wrong than I guess just being a good guy was enough. Still nothing to loose. Win win for eternity! How I roll. If I were just a broken record on here spouting what I was told than I am pretty lame. But I just accepted Christ a few years ago. I resented Christians for years before that. Everything I believe I have questioned and tried to learn about.  Most makes sense, some stuff I have to just understand I will never understand God completely.  Not meant to by design.



Somehow you missed this from my post:

what if there is a 3rd,4th,5th....100th possibility that you did not prepare for?


----------



## Bob2010 (Jan 20, 2014)

bullethead said:


> Somehow you missed this from my post:
> 
> what if there is a 3rd,4th,5th....100th possibility that you did not prepare for?



No. I saw it. I put my comment in the middle of yours. Didn't feel like redoing it so I deleted your last part. If God / Christ is not real then the common non Christian belief of I just have to be a good person is true. Or I guess maybe I am reincarnated into dog or something. Or I just rot in the ground. Either way Life here is good and it doesn't seem like any other God will condemn me. Doesn't matter though.  Because Christ is real and he died for us.


----------



## Bob2010 (Jan 20, 2014)

hummdaddy said:


> i went beyond that,believe somewhat the same as you,and identified god....what happens to me for finding out the truth of the bible?



I guess that depends on your truth of the bible. If you believe what I believe then you admit your sins to God , turn away from them, understanding that is why Christ died, and strive to bring God glory with your actions.  Then you tell others the good news of Christ. If you believe the truth of the bible is its a lie. Then you do what I used to do. I did whatever I thought was right. What I thought God was ok with. Justify anything because you answer to no one.


----------



## Bob2010 (Jan 20, 2014)

660griz said:


> I didn't ask whether you believed it or not. I know you believe it. I asked if it was o.k.



Its not up to me to judge God and decide if that is ok. The Holy Spirit told her she would be pregnant with Jesus. Mary saw the Holy Spirit too. Pretty sure if Joseph thought his woman had been unfaithful he would have reacted a bit different.  Seems when you see God you believe what he says. Good thing too because Christ was born. My point is the Christian belief is no more unbelievable than other beliefs of creation. God is harsh.  No part of the bible leads me to believe he is not. He is also very loving and provides.  I don't ignore the parts you say are bad. I have a respectful fear of some things. Much as I would my father when I was a child.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Jan 20, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> Which do you believe to be the better (more Christ-like) motivation to do good:
> 
> (A)  Do good because someone is watching and there will be a judgement later resulting in either reward or punishment,
> 
> ...



Here's the Catch-22 on this: if you do things because in your heart they are right but _don't_ credit it to Christ (and believe in Him) you get the eternal pitchfork treatment. Because if you always do right on your own you don't need a reward or punishment to keep you in line, thus you don't need Christ. Something to think about.


----------



## Bob2010 (Jan 20, 2014)

oldfella1962 said:


> Here's the Catch-22 on this: if you do things because in your heart they are right but _don't_ credit it to Christ (and believe in Him) you get the eternal pitchfork treatment. Because if you always do right on your own you don't need a reward or punishment to keep you in line, thus you don't need Christ. Something to think about.



Who can always do right anyway.  Even as a Christian I will do wrong. We are human. Still need Christ as we are not just concerned with now. Eternity is a long time.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jan 21, 2014)

bullethead said:


> I even wonder how many have read the one book instead of just the feel good favorite parts while skimming over the rest.



I wonder how many atheist have ever read Darwin?


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Jan 21, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> Seems when you see God you believe what he says.



Seems that this could fix all the world's ails, too.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jan 21, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> From my experience, repentence or the Holy Spirit moving in the life of a person is about as effective a motivator to live Christ-like as a Christian marriage, joined together by God, is at keeping a person from cheating.
> 
> If you believe that the Holy Spirit has the power to make Christians resist sin, then why does it fail at this daily?



That's a pretty sad commentary.  As with any relationship, you get out of it what you put into into it.  The problem with Christianity isn't that it hasn't been tried and found wanting,  the problem is that it hasn't been tried.  (Not my quote, but appropriate none the less.)


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jan 21, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> Which do you believe to be the better (more Christ-like) motivation to do good:
> 
> (A)  Do good because someone is watching and there will be a judgement later resulting in either reward or punishment,
> 
> ...



Think you left out the truth along with your batch of red herrings.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 21, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I wonder how many atheist have ever read Darwin?



I would wonder why it matters as it is not their official handbook which they base their lives and judge all others by??


----------



## HawgJawl (Jan 21, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Think you left out the truth along with your batch of red herrings.



I don't think it is a red herring.  It is directly related to this statement about motivation:



Bob2010 said:


> I would agree with you that one can live well and make good moral decisions without being Christian.  Just seems there's no motivation without repentance or the Holy Spirit moving in your life not to indulge in worldly pleasures.



I didn't say that Christians cannot do good simply because in our hearts we know its the right thing.  I just don't normally hear that reason stated by others as the motivation to do good.  The reason stated usually can be related to judgement and eternity.


----------



## HawgJawl (Jan 21, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> That's a pretty sad commentary.  As with any relationship, you get out of it what you put into into it.  The problem with Christianity isn't that it hasn't been tried and found wanting,  the problem is that it hasn't been tried.  (Not my quote, but appropriate none the less.)



It may be sad, but do you think it is inaccurate?  I've collected a lot of statistics looking for any observable and measurable benefit granted solely to Christians.  Not all Christians, just enough to alter the average.  Divorce rates are one of those statistics.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jan 21, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> I agree that man is the failure.  Man sins.  The Holy Spirit moves in people's lives and still we sin.
> 
> I was responding to the statement that without the Holy Spirit moving in your life, what motivation is there to resist worldly pleasures.
> 
> ...



Again you assume the failure is on the behalf of the HS.  Why isn't the failure on your behalf, because you don't believe and take God on his word.  If you trust God for your salvation, what makes him any less trustworthy in any other promise he has made?


----------



## HawgJawl (Jan 21, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Again you assume the failure is on the behalf of the HS.  Why isn't the failure on you behalf, because you don't believe and take God on his word.  If you trust God for your salvation, what makes him any less trustworthy in any other promise he has made?



I don't think you are getting what I am saying.  When I say that "if the Holy Spirit is supposed to be providing some supernatural ability to resist worldly pleasures, He is failing", what I mean is that the Holy Spirit is obviously not supposed to be providing some supernatural ability to resist worldly pleasures.  It is up to the person to decide whether or not to sin.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jan 21, 2014)

bullethead said:


> I would wonder why it matters as it is not their official handbook which they base their lives and judge all others by??



No.  He's only responsibly for how they define their life with regards to origin, meaning, and destiny.  Without Darwin, atheism has no intellectually based structural  support, but then not everyone needs that.  Blind faith cuts both ways, does it not?


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jan 21, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> I don't think it is a red herring.  It is directly related to this statement about motivation:
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't say that Christians cannot do good simply because in our hearts we know its the right thing.  I just don't normally hear that reason stated by others as the motivation to do good.  The reason stated usually can be related to judgement and eternity.



Directly related is not synonymous with accurate, and I suspect you know that.

When it comes down to brass tacks, anyone can do good.  The difference is that the Christian can give a rationally intelligent reason for his whereas the atheist gives a rationally pragmatic reason.  His pragmatic reasoning will die the death of a thousand qualifications in the end, because it's not anchored in the transcendent.  None of which has anything to do with your statement regarding the failings of the HS.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jan 21, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> It may be sad, but do you think it is inaccurate?  I've collected a lot of statistics looking for any observable and measurable benefit granted solely to Christians.  Not all Christians, just enough to alter the average.  Divorce rates are one of those statistics.



Yes I do, and here's why:  Can your statistical models measure the faith a person truly has in Christ and how strong the Holy Spirit is in them?  Until they can, then you my brother, are in no position to make accurate statements regarding the strength or weaknesses of the HS and his ability to conquer sin.


----------



## 660griz (Jan 21, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> No.  He's only responsibly for how they define their life with regards to origin, meaning, and destiny.  Without Darwin, atheism has no intellectually based structural  support, but then not everyone needs that.  Blind faith cuts both ways, does it not?



No, Darwin is not responsible for my definition of origin, meaning, and destiny. Atheism means, I don't believe in any supernatural being. Period. There is no blind faith and no threat of eternal torture is I don't believe.


----------



## HawgJawl (Jan 21, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> From my experience, repentence or the Holy Spirit moving in the life of a person is about as effective a motivator to live Christ-like as a Christian marriage, joined together by God, is at keeping a person from cheating.
> 
> If you believe that the Holy Spirit has the power to make Christians resist sin, then why does it fail at this daily?





SemperFiDawg said:


> That's a pretty sad commentary.  As with any relationship, you get out of it what you put into into it.  The problem with Christianity isn't that it hasn't been tried and found wanting,  the problem is that it hasn't been tried.  (Not my quote, but appropriate none the less.)





SemperFiDawg said:


> Yes I do, and here's why:  Can your statistical models measure the faith a person truly has in Christ and how strong the Holy Spirit is in them?  Until they can, then you my brother, are in no position to make accurate statements regarding the strength or weaknesses of the HS and his ability to conquer sin.



First, I do not believe that the Holy Spirit is failing at it's job, because I do not believe that it is the job of the Holy Spirit to supernaturally assist Christians in resisting worldly pleasures.  I also do not believe that it is the job of the Holy Spirit to supernaturally hold together Christian marriages.

Second, the averages will be affected enough to measure if just a few Christians are have enough faith in Christ and the Holy Spirit is working in them.  It doesn't take all Christians, or the majority of Christians, it just takes a few.

Just for the sake of discussion, let's say that 50% of all American marriages end in divorce.  Separate people into different groups and compare the groups to the 50% divorce rate.  If any one group has members who possess some better than average ability to avoid divorce, the overall average of that group will be effected and the divorce rate for the group will be less than 50%.  If this ability to avoid divorce is only present in Christians, then all other groups, without this ability, will be higher than Christians.

Like I said, it doesn't take a majority, just any measurable amount.

Again, I am not blaming this on the Holy Spirit because I do not believe the Holy Spirit has anything to do with it.


----------



## HawgJawl (Jan 21, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> With the Holy Spirit your motivation is not just about right now. Your looking at how your decisions effect eternity.





HawgJawl said:


> Which do you believe to be the better (more Christ-like) motivation to do good:
> 
> (A)  Do good because someone is watching and there will be a judgement later resulting in either reward or punishment,
> 
> ...





SemperFiDawg said:


> Think you left out the truth along with your batch of red herrings.





HawgJawl said:


> I don't think it is a red herring.  It is directly related to this statement about motivation:
> 
> I didn't say that Christians cannot do good simply because in our hearts we know its the right thing.  I just don't normally hear that reason stated by others as the motivation to do good.  The reason stated usually can be related to judgement and eternity.





SemperFiDawg said:


> Directly related is not synonymous with accurate, and I suspect you know that.
> 
> When it comes down to brass tacks, anyone can do good.  The difference is that the Christian can give a rationally intelligent reason for his whereas the atheist gives a rationally pragmatic reason.  His pragmatic reasoning will die the death of a thousand qualifications in the end, because it's not anchored in the transcendent.  None of which has anything to do with your statement regarding the failings of the HS.



The "failings of the Holy Spirit" was a different topic.  I think they're starting to run together.  This exchange was simply about the source of motivation to do good.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 21, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> No.  He's only responsibly for how they define their life with regards to origin, meaning, and destiny.  Without Darwin, atheism has no intellectually based structural  support, but then not everyone needs that.  Blind faith cuts both ways, does it not?



Darwin and Darwinism has NOTHING to do with atheism. This is another one of your baseless assertions that only makes sense in your mind. Your thoughts are typical of the creationists crowd but do yourself a favor by reading up about what you are trying to pass off as some sort of Universal atheist statement. Darwinism is 140+ years old and has been refined and fine tuned ever since. Darwin had some good thoughts but his work absolutely does not coincide with every atheist, except in your mind.....


http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Theory_of_evolution

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwinism


----------



## bullethead (Jan 21, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Yes I do, and here's why:  Can your statistical models measure the faith a person truly has in Christ and how strong the Holy Spirit is in them?  Until they can, then you my brother, are in no position to make accurate statements regarding the strength or weaknesses of the HS and his ability to conquer sin.



WHO exactly is in any position to show us a HS exists, let alone is responsible for what you claim it is responsible for? You are arguing what ifs by assertion. Inserting the Holy Spirit(and its counterparts) into a conversation as being some sort of universally understood and believed entity is the Ultimate Red Herring you so fondly cry about.


----------



## JB0704 (Jan 21, 2014)

bullethead said:


> Darwin and Darwinism has NOTHING to do with atheism. This is another one of your baseless assertions that only makes sense in your mind. Your thoughts are typical of the creationists crowd but do yourself a favor by reading up about what you are trying to pass off as some sort of Universal atheist statement. Darwinism is 140+ years old and has been refined and fine tuned ever since. Darwin had some good thoughts but his work absolutely does not coincide with every atheist, except in your mind.....



Can an atheist also be a creationist?


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Jan 21, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> Can an atheist also be a creationist?



A person can believe whatever they wish to believe, especially in the absence of evidence.


----------



## JB0704 (Jan 21, 2014)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> A person can believe whatever they wish to believe, especially in the absence of evidence.





Help me out here......an atheist is one who excludes the possibility of God (I'm leaving out agnostics in any form here since the post in question said atheist).....how can a person who holds such a believe also believe in a creator?


----------



## bullethead (Jan 21, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> Can an atheist also be a creationist?



Yes but not needing to believe that a Deity had anything to do with it.
IE: There are some that believe the Big Bang was brought about by energy and that is responsible for creation through elements and chemical reactions.

There are no specific set of beliefs that someone must adhere to in order to be an Atheist...other than they do not believe in a God or Gods.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 21, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> Help me out here......an atheist is one who excludes the possibility of God (I'm leaving out agnostics in any form here since the post in question said atheist).....how can a person who holds such a believe also believe in a creator?



It is not about believing in a creator as a God. Smack two rocks together and create a spark. You created a spark but you are not a God. It is a reaction of energy and matter.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Jan 21, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> Help me out here......an atheist is one who excludes the possibility of God (I'm leaving out agnostics in any form here since the post in question said atheist).....how can a person who holds such a believe also believe in a creator?



Are you referring to creator, or Creator? One is a proper noun, mind you. 

Evolution is a creator. God is a Creator. It's important to delineate.


----------



## JB0704 (Jan 21, 2014)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Are you referring to creator, or Creator? One is a proper noun, mind you.
> 
> Evolution is a creator. God is a Creator. It's important to delineate.



Big "C," which was the intent of the initial question....


----------



## JB0704 (Jan 21, 2014)

bullethead said:


> It is not about believing in a creator as a God. Smack two rocks together and create a spark. You created a spark but you are not a God. It is a reaction of energy and matter.



But what smacked the rocks together without a catylyst?


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Jan 21, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> Big "C," which was the intent of the initial question....



It wouldn't make sense to me to be both, atheist and Creationist, but that's a personal belief and I refuse to pass judgment on individual beliefs, so long as they stay on that level. 

So can they exist? Sure, probably. Will they be able to convince you of the same? Probably not.


----------



## JB0704 (Jan 21, 2014)

bullethead said:


> There are no specific set of beliefs that someone must adhere to in order to be an Atheist...other than they do not believe in a God or Gods.



I am assuming that creator implies intent.....should ahve clarified that.  Without the intent, aren't we left with Darwinism on some level?


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Jan 21, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> But what smacked the rocks together without a catylyst?



Why should what smacked them together make sense to us?


----------



## JB0704 (Jan 21, 2014)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Why should what smacked them together make sense to us?



It doesn't have to.  But the possibility of intent elliminates the possibility of an atheist, and moves the one pondering into the agnostic category.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 21, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> But what smacked the rocks together without a catylyst?



We can go into string theory and twenty other things that neither of us can fully wrap our minds around.
But in the case of two rocks smacking together and creating a spark it could be you...does that make you a God? Gravity could cause a rock to fall onto another and cause the spark..is the rock God?
It all reverts back to 13.7 Billion years ago which neither one of us has anything but a guess on what happened before then. Is the Big Bang a reaction of what was left from an older Universe that had Black Holes swallowing everything up until the only thing left was a singular point of a super condensed ball of mass and energy...I don't know...

I am willing to bet you an eternity that it is not any one of mans created gods though.


----------



## JB0704 (Jan 21, 2014)

bullethead said:


> ...I don't know....



But doesn't that make you an agnostic?


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Jan 21, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> It doesn't have to.  But the possibility of intent elliminates the possibility of an atheist, and moves the one pondering into the agnostic category.



It's interesting that you're taking a hardline stance on atheism here, based on logical definitions of the term. Other than a lack of belief in a God, what codified set of rules do atheists have?

None. So there could be an atheist who is also a Creationist, in the sense that they believe that something, not necessarily a god, created everything. 

It's the narrow, theo-centric, view of the word Creationist that you seem to be using that's causing your logic loop. 

Creationists rely on a supernatural being, but that doesn't have to be a God, any more than a ghost (also a supernatural being) is a god.


----------



## 660griz (Jan 21, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> Its not up to me to judge God and decide if that is ok.




So God is more of a "Do what I say, not as I do.", kind of God. Correct?
Leading by example is not his strength. 
He makes mistakes but, makes up for it later on. 
Obviously, adultery and coveting another man's woman came later. Also, he created a man and a woman, told them to multiply. Later, realizing that was a mistake, he made incest a sin and wiped out the world. (Noah, etc.)


----------



## bullethead (Jan 21, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> But doesn't that make you an agnostic?



For the 86,371st time.......
WHO specifically ever said I was an Atheist?

What I can say is that science is clearly ahead of religion in the explanation department.


----------



## JB0704 (Jan 21, 2014)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> It's interesting that you're taking a hardline stance on atheism here, based on logical definitions of the term. Other than a lack of belief in a God, what codified set of rules do atheists have?



I generally will differentiate between the two.  One position makes a ton of logical sense to me (even though I am a Christian, I "get" the agnostic position), the other seems to assume the same knowledge it claims others cannot have.



StripeRR HunteRR said:


> It's the narrow, theo-centric, view of the word Creationist that you seem to be using that's causing your logic loop.



I have had the same debate in reverse on this forum, where your "team" assumed creator implied intent.




StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Creationists rely on a supernatural being, but that doesn't have to be a God, any more than a ghost (also a supernatural being) is a god.



....or the FSM.  Yes, I get it.  My point is that the discussion was over atheism and darwinism.  I have difficulty understanding how one could hold one position without the other (obviously narrowly defined for the sake of this discussion).


----------



## JB0704 (Jan 21, 2014)

bullethead said:


> For the 86,371st time.......
> WHO specifically ever said I was an Atheist?
> 
> What I can say is that science is clearly ahead of religion in the explanation department.



We aren't discussing you specifically, I was discussing your quote.

I have never considered you an atheist.



			
				bullethead said:
			
		

> Darwin and Darwinism has NOTHING to do with atheism.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 21, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> We aren't discussing you specifically, I was discussing your quote.
> 
> I have never considered you an atheist.



Darwin and his "ism" is about natural selection. I do not think every atheist...or in order to "be" and atheist...you have to follow Darwin.

Now  "natural selection"  is called adaptive radiation as scientists have taken it further..


----------



## JB0704 (Jan 21, 2014)

bullethead said:


> Darwin and his "ism" is about natural selection. I do not think every atheist...or in order to "be" and atheist...you have to follow Darwin.



Can life be in present form without evolving from a lower form in the absence of a creator?


----------



## 660griz (Jan 21, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> Can life be in present form without evolving from a lower form in the absence of a creator?



Generally speaking, no. That is the laws of nature. Adapt or die.

"In fact, according to an evolutionary principle called the Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium, evolutionary change is a mathematical necessity so long as at least one of the following influences occur to a genetic population: mutation, non-random mating (including sexual selection), gene flow, genetic drift or natural selection."


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Jan 21, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> I generally will differentiate between the two.  One position makes a ton of logical sense to me (even though I am a Christian, I "get" the agnostic position), the other seems to assume the same knowledge it claims others cannot have.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Please forgive me, I wasn't trying to imply that a narrow, an theo-centric, view was necessarily a bad thing. I wasn't trying to insult you or anyone else. 

I think another important distinction to make is that I don't have "a team". Are there other agnostics, sure, but there's no reason to think that we 100% agree on anything, especially considering 2 Christian's can rarely accomplish the same. 

The punchline to all of this is that it all boils down to belief. It's not knowing, and a scientist can't say with any more certainty that there wasn't a God before the Big Bang than a Priest can say there was. There's precisely 0 way of truly knowing anything about that. 

So with that in mind, beliefs, while certainly more palatable to far more people, don't have to be logical or even explainable. If I wanted to believe that the Stay-Puft marshmallow man created the Big Bang then there's no way to argue for or against that. 

That's why I always say that it's important for people to recognize the difference between knowledge based on belief, and knowledge based on facts. Not only that, but it's important to weight them properly when engaging others on their respective grounds. 

Case in point, and it's one I use frequently, is alcohol on Sundays. So your faith says that it's a sin for you to consume alcohol on Sunday, whoop-dee-doo. So don't consume it yourself, and certainly don't think that your beliefs have any more impact on my life than mine do on yours. It seems to me to be a petulant God that would condemn you to Hades over my consumption, not to mention the hypocrisy regarding the whole free will thing, if not only he's to judge me, but you are to act as his police in my life.


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## JB0704 (Jan 21, 2014)

660griz said:


> Adapt or die.



Isn't that one basis of darwinism?


----------



## bullethead (Jan 21, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> Can life be in present form without evolving from a lower form in the absence of a creator?



I am not sure what you mean there???

Can I exist as I am right now without me having evolved from an earlier human type with no creator involved in the process???

It is my thoughts that I exist now because I evolved from an earlier human and no intelligent creator (in the form that any organized religion worships) was involved.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 21, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> Isn't that one basis of darwinism?



It has been improved upon for almost 150 years now.


----------



## 660griz (Jan 21, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> Isn't that one basis of darwinism?



"In the United States, the term "Darwinism" is often used by creationists as a pejorative term in reference to beliefs such as atheistic naturalism, but in the United Kingdom the term has no negative connotations, being freely used as a shorthand for the body of theory dealing with evolution, and in particular, evolution by natural selection."

And, unlike God, we have real evidence of human evolution. We drink milk as adults, for example. This enzyme use to shut down until we started domesticating cows.
Being able to drink milk became a nutritionally advantageous quality.


----------



## JB0704 (Jan 21, 2014)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> I think another important distinction to make is that I don't have "a team". Are there other agnostics, sure, but there's no reason to think that we 100% agree on anything, especially considering 2 Christian's can rarely accomplish the same.



Understood 




StripeRR HunteRR said:


> That's why I always say that it's important for people to recognize the difference between knowledge based on belief, and knowledge based on facts. Not only that, but it's important to weight them properly when engaging others on their respective grounds.



While I will consistently say that my belief in God is a logical conclusion, I understand my belief in Christ is a faith based conclusion.  Where I disagree is the weight I will assign my beliefs based on their origin (logic or faith).  While one is just as real as the other, I am admitting that the basis varies.

You can't be a Christian today without having a certain level of faith in things you cannot see or prove.  2000 years ago was a different story. It is what it is.  That being the case, I will never try to "prove" Christianity to anybody.  It's too easy to say "prove it."  I can't.  I can just tell you why I believe, and it's the other party's business to either accept or reject it.



StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Case in point, and it's one I use frequently, is alcohol on Sundays. So your faith says that it's a sin for you to consume alcohol on Sunday, whoop-dee-doo. So don't consume it yourself, and certainly don't think that your beliefs have any more impact on my life than mine do on yours. It seems to me to be a petulant God that would condemn you to Hades over my consumption, not to mention the hypocrisy regarding the whole free will thing, if not only he's to judge me, but you are to act as his police in my life.



You and I would agree more than disagree if we were to ever discuss legislating religous beliefs/morality/ and such.


----------



## JB0704 (Jan 21, 2014)

bullethead said:


> Can I exist as I am right now without me having evolved from an earlier human type with no creator involved in the process???



Yes.  That is the question.  

I don't see how it's possible unless a creator is involved.  Which leads me to conclude that an atheist (not agnostic) would have difficulty believing in anything other than life's evolutionary development to one extent or another.  If there is no god (atheist, not agnostic position), than life would have had to "poof" into present form unless life evolved from lower life forms, relative to today.  Which is why I asked the original question about atheists: can a person be an atheist (no God) without believing in Darwinism to some extent (no evolution).



bullethead said:


> It is my thoughts that I exist now because I evolved from an earlier human and no intelligent creator (in the form that any organized religion worships) was involved.



I recognize that.  But, if you were to say you were an atheist, and did not believe in evolution at all, I would be left scratching my head.

Some folks believe aliens planted us, but we get into an infinite regress chasing that rabbit.


----------



## JB0704 (Jan 21, 2014)

bullethead said:


> It has been improved upon for almost 150 years now.



Yes. I am more discussing the basic principles of evolution, not the mechanics of it.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Jan 21, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> Understood
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It seems like we agree on a lot, but we already knew that, too. 

Even your use of the word logical. You used logic to get to your position, it may not hold up outside of your head, but it makes sense to you. 

That's the exact same frame that I built my assertion that an atheist can also be a creationist upon.


----------



## Bob2010 (Jan 21, 2014)

So I am going to try to make this my last post. Jesus never argued anyone into heaven.  Doubt I will either. What I want to stress before I go is this. Too many factors had to come together for the bang theory of creation.  Distance of sun and moon in relationship to the earth is exact including the speed our earth spins. If any of those things were a hair off there is no life form. Then throw in gravity is the exact right strength not to crush us or we float away. There is a creator. Question then becomes who is the creator.  We can all be wrong but only one of religions or beliefs can be right. So whats more believable.  Christianity is simply the most documented and studied belief there is. Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins. He loves us. He rose again and is now with God. He paid the price for sin. His grace is sufficient enough. Once we accept Christ we are covered.  Christ does not have to climb back on the cross and die again every time I sin. My every sin past, present, and future are taken care of by his grace when he died on the cross. What I learned here on your atheist forum is there are some hard questions to answer about the bible. When I start arguing, defending, or trying to put God in a box by twisting his words to fit what I want those words to mean. All I have accomplished is a bunch of people thinking and rationalizing what we want to believe.  The Holy Spirit goes for our heart. If the Holy Spirit has been trying to get your attention then deep inside you will know it. You may try to ignore it but when the time is right. Pride, anger, knowledge, and your beliefs will crumble and you will be filled with humility and a love that is unexplainable. Its a heart change that leaves you without such a desire to prove it wrong. I will tell you it is good! So all this knowledge and reason will really just remove the possibility for the Holy Spirit to do his job. He works in our heart, not our head. He wants you bad. He will wait years to get you. Chipping away at you. When he gets you there is no looking back. I know the Holy Spirit is after many who have read this thread.  If that is you. Don't let your head keep him out of your heart. The heart is where he will change your whole world. He will go back to God and Christ with the news. There will be a celebration for your salvation.  But you have to turn off your head and hear your heart. Its a win win decision.Peace out! And maybe Ill see you on the Christian forum. Thanks for having me.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 21, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> Yes.  That is the question.
> 
> I don't see how it's possible unless a creator is involved.


Paul Davies:

In the everyday world, energy is always unalterably fixed; the law of energy conservation is a cornerstone of classical physics. But in the quantum microworld, energy can appear and disappear out of nowhere in a spontaneous and unpredictable fashion. (Davies 1983: 162) 



JB0704 said:


> Which leads me to conclude that an atheist (not agnostic) would have difficulty believing in anything other than life's evolutionary development to one extent or another.  If there is no god (atheist, not agnostic position), than life would have had to "poof" into present form unless life evolved from lower life forms, relative to today.  Which is why I asked the original question about atheists: can a person be an atheist (no God) without believing in Darwinism to some extent (no evolution).


http://asktheatheists.com/questions/1517-do-all-atheists-believe-in-evolution/





JB0704 said:


> I recognize that.  But, if you were to say you were an atheist, and did not believe in evolution at all, I would be left scratching my head.
> 
> Some folks believe aliens planted us, but we get into an infinite regress chasing that rabbit.



http://www.createdebate.com/debate/show/Can_you_be_an_atheist_and_not_believe_in_evolution


----------



## bullethead (Jan 21, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> So I am going to try to make this my last post. Jesus never argued anyone into heaven.  Doubt I will either. What I want to stress before I go is this. Too many factors had to come together for the bang theory of creation.  Distance of sun and moon in relationship to the earth is exact including the speed our earth spins. If any of those things were a hair off there is no life form. Then throw in gravity is the exact right strength not to crush us or we float away. There is a creator. Question then becomes who is the creator.  We can all be wrong but only one of religions or beliefs can be right. So whats more believable.  Christianity is simply the most documented and studied belief there is. Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins. He loves us. He rose again and is now with God. He paid the price for sin. His grace is sufficient enough. Once we accept Christ we are covered.  Christ does not have to climb back on the cross and die again every time I sin. My every sin past, present, and future are taken care of by his grace when he died on the cross. What I learned here on your atheist forum is there are some hard questions to answer about the bible. When I start arguing, defending, or trying to put God in a box by twisting his words to fit what I want those words to mean. All I have accomplished is a bunch of people thinking and rationalizing what we want to believe.  The Holy Spirit goes for our heart. If the Holy Spirit has been trying to get your attention then deep inside you will know it. You may try to ignore it but when the time is right. Pride, anger, knowledge, and your beliefs will crumble and you will be filled with humility and a love that is unexplainable. Its a heart change that leaves you without such a desire to prove it wrong. I will tell you it is good! So all this knowledge and reason will really just remove the possibility for the Holy Spirit to do his job. He works in our heart, not our head. He wants you bad. He will wait years to get you. Chipping away at you. When he gets you there is no looking back. I know the Holy Spirit is after many who have read this thread.  If that is you. Don't let your head keep him out of your heart. The heart is where he will change your whole world. He will go back to God and Christ with the news. There will be a celebration for your salvation.  But you have to turn off your head and hear your heart. Its a win win decision.Peace out! And maybe Ill see you on the Christian forum. Thanks for having me.



It is estimated that there are 17 Billion planets in just the Milky Way Galaxy that are in the "Goldilocks" Zone. Not too hot, Not too cold, just the right size...Just the right distance from their Sun..... 
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2013...e-planets-are-in-milky-way-new-estimate-says/
With 8.8 Billion of them being habitable...
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles...ion-habitable-planets-in-the-milky-way-galaxy

Don't get too comfortable thinking you are special.


----------



## 660griz (Jan 21, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> So I am going to try to make this my last post. Jesus never argued anyone into heaven.  Doubt I will either. What I want to stress before I go is this. Too many factors had to come together for the bang theory of creation.  Distance of sun and moon in relationship to the earth is exact including the speed our earth spins. If any of those things were a hair off there is no life form.



bullet answered this best but, one more point, you are assuming all life has to be like life on earth.


----------



## WaltL1 (Jan 21, 2014)

> But you have to turn off your head and hear your heart.


Yeah Bob we know. God gave us a head. God gave us a brain. God gave us the ability to think. But in order to believe in God you have to turn all that off.
Gotcha.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Jan 21, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> Yeah Bob we know. God gave us a head. God gave us a brain. God gave us the ability to think. But in order to believe in God you have to turn all that off.
> Gotcha.



Thread killer.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 21, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> Yeah Bob we know. God gave us a head. God gave us a brain. God gave us the ability to think. But in order to believe in God you have to turn all that off.
> Gotcha.



That right there is QUALITY!


----------



## WaltL1 (Jan 21, 2014)

bullethead said:


> That right there is QUALITY!


I always wonder, if God is real, is he up there just shaking his head at some of the stuff his followers say? I means he's gotta be like 
"I gave you a brain for a reason for Gods sake".


----------



## bullethead (Jan 21, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> I always wonder, if God is real, is he up there just shaking his head at some of the stuff his followers say? I means he's gotta be like
> "I gave you a brain for a reason for Gods sake".



I wonder if the people that use their brain are more of what a God had in mind all along.......


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jan 21, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> I don't think you are getting what I am saying.  When I say that "if the Holy Spirit is supposed to be providing some supernatural ability to resist worldly pleasures, He is failing", what I mean is that the Holy Spirit is obviously not supposed to be providing some supernatural ability to resist worldly pleasures.  It is up to the person to decide whether or not to sin.



That may be what you say, but it doesn't line up with scripture.  Scripture clearly teaches its a joint effort to some degree but that through the power of the HS one can overcome any sinful nature or temptation.


----------



## hummdaddy (Jan 21, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> So I am going to try to make this my last post. Jesus never argued anyone into heaven.  Doubt I will either. What I want to stress before I go is this. Too many factors had to come together for the bang theory of creation.  Distance of sun and moon in relationship to the earth is exact including the speed our earth spins. If any of those things were a hair off there is no life form. Then throw in gravity is the exact right strength not to crush us or we float away. There is a creator. Question then becomes who is the creator.  We can all be wrong but only one of religions or beliefs can be right. So whats more believable.  Christianity is simply the most documented and studied belief there is. Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins. He loves us. He rose again and is now with God. He paid the price for sin. His grace is sufficient enough. Once we accept Christ we are covered.  Christ does not have to climb back on the cross and die again every time I sin. My every sin past, present, and future are taken care of by his grace when he died on the cross. What I learned here on your atheist forum is there are some hard questions to answer about the bible. When I start arguing, defending, or trying to put God in a box by twisting his words to fit what I want those words to mean. All I have accomplished is a bunch of people thinking and rationalizing what we want to believe.  The Holy Spirit goes for our heart. If the Holy Spirit has been trying to get your attention then deep inside you will know it. You may try to ignore it but when the time is right. Pride, anger, knowledge, and your beliefs will crumble and you will be filled with humility and a love that is unexplainable. Its a heart change that leaves you without such a desire to prove it wrong. I will tell you it is good! So all this knowledge and reason will really just remove the possibility for the Holy Spirit to do his job. He works in our heart, not our head. He wants you bad. He will wait years to get you. Chipping away at you. When he gets you there is no looking back. I know the Holy Spirit is after many who have read this thread.  If that is you. Don't let your head keep him out of your heart. The heart is where he will change your whole world. He will go back to God and Christ with the news. There will be a celebration for your salvation.  But you have to turn off your head and hear your heart. Its a win win decision.Peace out! And maybe Ill see you on the Christian forum. Thanks for having me.



there are 1 million galaxies photographed  so far,and you are only talking about 1....i have almost died 15 times literally,so i have had some things to motivate my thinking...it made me get more involved into the answers,to the questions i held deep....


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jan 21, 2014)

660griz said:


> No, Darwin is not responsible for my definition of origin, meaning, and destiny. Atheism means, I don't believe in any supernatural being. Period. There is no blind faith and no threat of eternal torture is I don't believe.


 Actually pure atheism is an intellectually untenable position.  Pure atheism says there is NO such thing as an all knowing being, however to truly know this one would have to be an all knowing being which is again the very tenet atheism denies.  It's self refuting.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 21, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Actually pure atheism is an intellectually untenable position.  Pure atheism says there is NO such thing as an all knowing being, however to truly know this one would have to be an all knowing being which is again the very tenet atheism denies.  It's self refuting.



Pure atheism can take that position until an all knowing being steps up.........it is an intellectually tenable position until it is proven wrong. 
No red herring assertions of a deity please.


----------



## HawgJawl (Jan 21, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> That may be what you say, but it doesn't line up with scripture.  Scripture clearly teaches its a joint effort to some degree but that through the power of the HS one can overcome any sinful nature or temptation.



Okay.
So, do you think that the Holy Spirit provides some type of assistance to make any measurable amount of Christian marriages even slightly stronger than Athiest's marriages, on average?


----------



## JB0704 (Jan 21, 2014)

bullethead said:


> Pure atheism can take that position until an all knowing being steps up.........it is an intellectually tenable position until it is proven wrong.



Does that go for any fact that was eventually proven to be not so much?


----------



## bullethead (Jan 21, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> Does that go for any fact that was eventually proven to be not so much?



I guess it would but 5000 years and counting is quite a streak.
The last 100 or so years has really given mankind the opportunity to affirm or deny claims on many levels and for many subjects. Religion has not held up so well for facts backing up claims.


----------



## jmharris23 (Jan 21, 2014)

bullethead said:


> I guess it would but 5000 years and counting is quite a streak.
> The last 100 or so years has really given mankind the opportunity to affirm or deny claims on many levels and for many subjects. Religion has not held up so well for facts backing up claims.



Honestly I don't see where it's on the Christian religion to prove anything? 

What could it prove? The only "fact"is that we are called to put our faith in Christ. 

Either one does that or one does not. 

I believe it. I believe in a literal heaven and a literal h e l l. I believe the bible in totality. I believe in Christ. I believe that he existed, that he was crucified, buried, and resurrected. I believe that God has done a saving work in my life though the cross. 

I cannot prove it. You cannot disprove it. 

It is faith, and I have it.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 21, 2014)

jmharris23 said:


> Honestly I don't see where it's on the Christian religion to prove anything?
> 
> What could it prove? The only "fact"is that we are called to put our faith in Christ.
> 
> ...



No one can take away your beliefs. That is what makes a person unique. I respect beliefs. I agree that neither you or I can prove/disprove anything we or another believes for has faith in.

I have a problem with anyone making the jump of taking their beliefs and claiming they are facts. That is when the burden of proof rests on them to prove what they are saying is true. Believe me when I tell you that I am waiting for the day that someone can come up with evidence that proves the claims of any religion. I have tried myself and failed.


----------



## jmharris23 (Jan 21, 2014)

bullethead said:


> No one can take away your beliefs. That is what makes a person unique. I respect beliefs. I agree that neither you or I can prove/disprove anything we or another believes for has faith in.
> 
> I have a problem with anyone making the jump of taking their beliefs and claiming they are facts. That is when the burden of proof rests on them to prove what they are saying is true. Believe me when I tell you that I am waiting for the day that someone can come up with evidence that proves the claims of any religion. I have tried myself and failed.



Well if what I believe is true, you'll get your wish one day, and the claims of Christianity will be proven true. 

( please don't take that as some boogey-man, turn or burn statement because that is so not the spirit in which I meant it) 

The only facts I can provide you is the reality of what I believe God has done in my own life and what I have seen happen in others. 

But even those are not really facts in that they only pertain to my personal experience and the experience of others like me, so they are facts to me, but not so much to you. 

All I can say is that Christ is very real to me, and I will share that with anyone who lets me and have devoted my life to helping others grow I their walk with Christ and their understanding of the bible. 

I cannot separate myself or my answers in these forums from that reality.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 21, 2014)

jmharris23 said:


> Well if what I believe is true, you'll get your wish one day, and the claims of Christianity will be proven true.
> 
> ( please don't take that as some boogey-man, turn or burn statement because that is so not the spirit in which I meant it)
> 
> ...



jm i honestly used to think like that too. When I sat down and wanted to be honest with myself I realized that what I thought were truths were not really true no matter how much I wanted them to be. Had I stopped there (and I did for a long while) I would still be a believer but somewhat unsatisfied. When I took it to the next level to find out if what I have always been taught about the Bible was truthful to reassure my beliefs and wipe away doubt was when doubt overcame beliefs. It was then that I tried to prove to myself the Bible was what it claimed to be and I could not. No matter how hard I tried I could not find any sources outside of the book to back up the book. I could not and cannot overlook facts and make myself believe out of sheer want or need. I cannot be dishonest to myself.


----------



## Denton (Jan 21, 2014)

jm, I completely agree that in matters that cannot be proven or disproven then faith (hopefully based on something quantifiable, but not necessarily) is all we have.  And most here that I have read can respect that. The problems begin when faith blinds the mind to observable fact. 

That pork and rabbit cooked property is safe to eat, despite the bible saying it isn't.  That children who disrespect their parents don't have to be stoned to death, or adulterers for that matter. Or especially regarding evolution or even the age of the universe. You believe in the bible "in totality".  That, in this modern age, is simply impossible to do. 

You say that it is not up to the Christian religion to prove anything, but would you agree that it should at the very least not get disproved? 

We (all of science: history, physics, biology, etc) know that the egyptians had a jesus like figure in their religion who died and was resurrected, we know that myths and legends get bigger and more supernatural after ages of retellings, we even know how the bible was put together and translated repeatedly. Just the amazing number of alternative religious offerings brings into question, why this one specifically? 

Or if we continue to pick and choose which parts of the Bible to live by, then we are still creating our own religions (see baptist, methodist, other...ists). Religion can do amazing things or horrible things, just like man...or a placebo. I never underestimate the power of the mind to shape its own reality, for good or ill. 

Personally I have learned a lot from Christ in how a man should live because he seems to have been amazing. But I don't consider myself a christian nor do I fear the christian god any more than I fear Thor or Zeus or Allah. My Faith is always changing depending on any new, trustworthy, and verifiable facts come its way.  Does yours?


----------



## jmharris23 (Jan 22, 2014)

bullethead said:


> jm i honestly used to think like that too. When I sat down and wanted to be honest with myself I realized that what I thought were truths were not really true no matter how much I wanted them to be. Had I stopped there (and I did for a long while) I would still be a believer but somewhat unsatisfied. When I took it to the next level to find out if what I have always been taught about the Bible was truthful to reassure my beliefs and wipe away doubt was when doubt overcame beliefs. It was then that I tried to prove to myself the Bible was what it claimed to be and I could not. No matter how hard I tried I could not find any sources outside of the book to back up the book. I could not and cannot overlook facts and make myself believe out of sheer want or need. I cannot be dishonest to myself.




I am not making myself believe. I believe. It's easy for me. I don't know how to say it any other way. I believe. 

I am satisfied that the bible is sufficient evidence for the person of Christ. 

What you see in the bible and what I see are totally different.


----------



## 660griz (Jan 22, 2014)

The 'science' of positive thinking has been proven. Some folks like all of their questions rolled up in a nice tidy bow like religion. If it takes religion to get you out of the dumps, good for you. Some folks can do it on their own. Some folks, like in the documentary, "The Secret", use a rock. Is it true the rock helped these folks? Absolutely. Miracle? No. The mind is a powerful thing and we can be our own God.  

Lee Brower was a teacher who found that things weren't going right in his life. 
One day, he found a rock and he said to himself 'Every time I touch this rock, I'm going to think of something I'm grateful for'.

And so every morning he wakes up, picks up his rock from the dresser, puts it in his pocket and he goes through what he's grateful for in life.

And every night he comes home, empties his pocket, sees his rock and again he goes through what he's grateful for.

And so one day he had a friend from South Africa visit and he dropped the rock in front of his friend and the friend from South Africa asked 'What is that?'

Lee Brower explained what he was doing with his rock and pretty soon his friend started calling it a Gratitude Rock.

Two weeks later, Lee Brower got an email from his South African friend asking if he had any Gratitude Rocks to send over. His friend explained that his son was suffering from a rare form of Hepatitis and was dying. So Lee went to the river to look for rocks and he sent the rocks to his friend in South Africa.

Five months later, Lee gets an email from his friend telling him that his son is doing terrific and completely cured of the disease.


----------



## jmharris23 (Jan 22, 2014)

Positive thinking is awfully powerful, the mind is certainly a powerful thing, and we can surely be our own God. 

None of this though, disproves the possibility that there is a real God, and that he is the God of the bible.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Jan 22, 2014)

bullethead said:


> I wonder if the people that use their brain are more of what a God had in mind all along.......



The essence of why I can defend my skepticism to them. God made me the way I am, right? So God wanted a skeptic? So why be ashamed of the gift He gave me, right?


----------



## JB0704 (Jan 22, 2014)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> God made me the way I am, right? So God wanted a skeptic?



There is a certain worldview in Christianity that says yes to both.  I currently believe it's yes/no.  But, whether I'm right or wrong on that (not really relevant either way), I am convinced the intention is not for believers to switch the thought function off.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Jan 22, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> There is a certain worldview in Christianity that says yes to both.  I currently believe it's yes/no.  But, whether I'm right or wrong on that (not really relevant either way), I am convinced the intention is not for believers to switch the thought function off.



I would think that we were all engineered to be honest constructs of our constituent parts. You were meant to be a bridge between faith and logic, I was meant to be a skeptic of religion, a tolerant man toward faith, but unknowing of my own acceptance of any faith.


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## jmharris23 (Jan 22, 2014)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> The essence of why I can defend my skepticism to them. God made me the way I am, right? So God wanted a skeptic? So why be ashamed of the gift He gave me, right?





JB0704 said:


> There is a certain worldview in Christianity that says yes to both.  I currently believe it's yes/no.  But, whether I'm right or wrong on that (not really relevant either way), I am convinced the intention is not for believers to switch the thought function off.



This is true. 

Biblically it is true that God made you, and that you have a unique personality. 

All of us are "bent" in some certain way. 

You may very well be bent toward skepticism. 

That doesn't preclude you from becoming a Christian though. 

Plenty of skeptics have put their faith in Christ. 

Who knows?  One day you might as well.


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## StriperrHunterr (Jan 22, 2014)

jmharris23 said:


> This is true.
> 
> Biblically it is true that God made you, and that you have a unique personality.
> 
> ...



I agree, and that's why I'm careful to delineate faith from religion. Faith takes place in the heart, religion takes place in a building. 

I don't preclude the possibility of me one day seeing something that I can't argue against, in fact my eyes are wide open looking for it, despite what some will claim from my posts. 

Yes, I am highly skeptical, but as such if something passes my tests then it will be earth shattering relative to my world outlook. 

However, in your post you used the word Biblically. That's a big problem for me and has been discussed at length, but if you'd like to do it here, then I'm more than willing.


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## jmharris23 (Jan 22, 2014)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> However, in your post you used the word Biblically. That's a big problem for me and has been discussed at length, but if you'd like to do it here, then I'm more than willing.



I use that word a lot 

I also am not opposed to having a conversation about it, though like you, I'm not sure we'd be doing more than spinning our wheels?


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## StriperrHunterr (Jan 22, 2014)

jmharris23 said:


> I use that word a lot
> 
> I also am not opposed to having a conversation about it, though like you, I'm not sure we'd be doing more than spinning our wheels?



What else can two people of disparate beliefs, in the absence of hard evidence, do? 

Let's crack a beer, if you believe you can, and see where the rabbit hole goes...


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## jmharris23 (Jan 22, 2014)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> What else can two people of disparate beliefs, in the absence of hard evidence, do?
> 
> Let's crack a beer, if you believe you can, and see where the rabbit hole goes...



Anytime


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## 660griz (Jan 22, 2014)

jmharris23 said:


> None of this though, disproves the possibility that there is a real God, and that he is the God of the bible.



Absolutely true.
Nor was it intended to disprove God. However, it should make you think that some miracles from God, because of prayer and belief, were just the power of the mind. 

It is but one piece in a big puzzle.

Like God and energy have a lot in common.

"Energy has no beginning and no end. It can never be destroyed."


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## JB0704 (Jan 22, 2014)

jmharris23 said:


> Anytime



Wait a sec.....are you a drinkin' preacher?


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## jmharris23 (Jan 22, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> Wait a sec.....are you a drinkin' preacher?



I try to drink at least 64 ozs of water a day. 

That said you're welcome to drink a few in my company and I won't think any lesser of you


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## JB0704 (Jan 22, 2014)

jmharris23 said:


> That said you're welcome to drink a few in my company and I won't think any lesser of you


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## bullethead (Jan 22, 2014)

jmharris23 said:


> Positive thinking is awfully powerful, the mind is certainly a powerful thing, and we can surely be our own God.
> 
> None of this though, disproves the possibility that there is a real God, and that he is the God of the bible.



When dealing with what can be conjured up in the mind the possibilities are SO wide open that it does not point to anything specific. It doesn't disprove anything but many things can be ruled out due to sheer lack of supporting evidence.


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## Denton (Jan 22, 2014)

I like how JM uses the word Biblically.  I want to use other words like that.  ummm....

Tolkien-ly, it is true that my ancestors were hobbits because I'm short and have hairy feet. 

Rowlingly, it is true that Harry Potter was the chosen one of whom the prophesy foretold was to save us from He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named.  

Sorry JM, I couldn't help myself.  I love grammar.


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## TripleXBullies (Jan 23, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I wonder how many atheist have ever read Darwin?



I wonder how many atheists have a personal relationship with Darwin.


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## Denton (Jan 23, 2014)

TripleXBullies said:


> I wonder how many atheists have a personal relationship with Darwin.



I have a personal relationship with my highly evolved dog, and I can see him listening to me.  He actually does what I wish more than 50% of the time too.  

I also have a personal relationship with my conscience, my morality, and intelligent friends and family.  Conversations with my wife include ideas flowing in TWO directions.  

Personal relationships with people you never met are over rated.  Their ideas live a life all of their own though to be respected or not depending on their merits.  Darwin's ideas are to be respected much like the ideas of many other scientists, even some scientists who turned out to be wrong.


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