# Baptism for repentance?



## Artfuldodger

Studying about John baptising for repentance has me wondering what exactly that means. Other questions such as Jesus forgiving people before he died came up. Did John's baptisms offer salvation/ Did jesus forgiving offer salvation?
Does anyone agree with this:

Repentance (Gk. metanoia) literally means “to change the mind.”

It usually refers to changing the mind regarding your former beliefs and behaviors, and turning to a new way of believing and behaving. This change, of course, is exactly what John’s baptism represented for the Jewish people. When they came to be baptized by John in the Jordan, they were turning away from the corrupt forms of religious Judaism, and turning to a new way of living according to the loving and forgiving ways of God. In this way, repentance and baptism have nothing to do with receiving eternal life, or even receiving the forgiveness of sins. Both are just a way of turning away from the past and turning toward a new life for the future.

The term “remission” (Gk. aphesis) does not refer to “forgiveness” but is closer to “liberty” or “freedom” (cf. Luke 3:3; 4:18-19; 25:47).

Again, it is crucial to understand how Jewish people would have understood this term. At this time, the Jewish people were under the occupation of the Roman Empire. Yet many Jewish people understood that while Rome was their physical enemy, their greater enemy was their own sin and rebellion as a nation. In fact, the Jewish people believed that it was because of their sin and rebellion as a nation that God had allowed the Roman Empire to occupy and control Israel.

This is why the Jewish religious leaders of that time became so focused on properly keeping the Law of Moses. It was thought that if the nation could perfectly keep the law, then God would finally deliver Israel from the Romans and restore Israel to her rightful place among the nations.

So in other words, to be delivered from sin was to be delivered from the Romans, and vice versa.

http://www.tillhecomes.org/baptism-of-repentance-forgiveness-of-sins/


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## Artfuldodger

Jesus came only for the lost sheep of Israel yet he did heal the Canaanite Woman's Daughter. Does this show that he went against
his mission or that he changed his mind because of the woman's great faith?
Can God have mercy on whom he want? This would mean that God doesn't need to follow any rules for granting salvation or repentance.
I'm trying to learn more of the transitional period between the two covenants as well, including Jesus commanding the Jews to repent. Is this the same repentance commanded of us? Is this the same forgiveness offer to us by Jesus' death that Jesus offered others before his death if they repented?


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## Artfuldodger

Acts 2:38-42 (ESV)

38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” 40 And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” 41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

Is this crooked generation that repentance will save us from the people of Jerusalem or He11. Was Peter addressing only the people before the destruction of Jerusalem? Perhaps it is a parallel story with two meanings/warnings. One for Jerusalem and one for after the destruction.


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## Artfuldodger

Many of the parables that Jesus told was about repentance. A repentance needed because the amount of sin a person did could not save him. In the parable of the Barren Fig Tree being a descendant of Abraham or the amount of sinning was not a part of salvation. Jesus said it required repentance. The fig tree in this story didn't produce any fruit. 
What is the fruit if not repentance? 

Leading up to this parable Jesus said:
Luke 13:2-5
1Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2And Jesus said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate? 3"I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. 4"Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem? 5"I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

Who was Jesus addressing with this sermon? Could they recieve salvation by a Baptism of Repentance? Jesus hadn't died or ressurected yet.


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> Jesus came only for the lost sheep of Israel yet he did heal the Canaanite Woman's Daughter.


Art, consider Matthew 1:21, "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."

Are they not his people before he saves them?

Who are his people? John 6:37, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

"And he must needs go through Samaria."

Shortest route? Divine appointment?


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Art, consider Matthew 1:21, "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."
> 
> Are they not his people before he saves them?
> 
> Who are his people? John 6:37, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."
> 
> "And he must needs go through Samaria."
> 
> Shortest route? Divine appointment?



Can election, predestination, and preterism co-exist?
The reason I'm asking is the more Bible study I perform it appears all three are true.
Either that or every verse has a parallel meaning between the destruction of Jerusalem and destruction of the Earth and both of those event were or will be elected or predetermined. Both events were prophesied, both were predestined.


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## Artfuldodger

Genesis 12:2
"I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing.

What happened? Is the only greatness of Abraham's nation Jesus? Jesus is a great blessing from the nation of Abraham. Is this what God was promising Abraham? I see the Gentiles blessing but where is the Jews?  
Did God mean the Gentiles after we were grafted? Are we the great nation promised to Abraham?

These religious discussions rarely stay on topic and I don't care on my threads. I say let the spirit take it where he may. Maybe knowing my predestination and adoption into the Kingdom will further show my repentance and how it relates to the repentance of the Jews when Jesus walked the earth. Either that or I just love History.


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## hobbs27

Art, it is a struggle putting theses things together and here's a sermon on the very topic you are studying. This man has changed his views and still sounds to be not extremely sure but does offer good information.

http://www.buzzsprout.com/11630/190984-iwitness-baptism


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## Artfuldodger

Yeah perhaps too big of a struggle to ever completely piece the puzzle together. I don't believe it is a part of salvation and maybe I'm just trying to figure it out from a historical point of view. I do believe many verses have parallel meanings and perhaps even the parables which have various meanings including repentance. 
Maybe back to the OP and repentance. 

And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.”
Isn't that the same thing Jesus is commanding us to do?

Back to the link:
When Peter invites them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, the terminology he uses is nearly identical to the terminology used by John the Baptist. Both John and Peter called the Jewish people to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins (cf. Luke 3:3 and Acts 2:38). The topics of repentance and the remission of sins are huge issues within Christian theology, but just as with baptism, these topics are severely misunderstood by Christians when we divorce them from their historical and cultural roots within Judaism.

http://www.tillhecomes.org/water-and-spirit-baptism-in-acts-2/

The cultural and historical roots tie-in to our religion must be of some importance in bible study.


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> Can election, predestination, and preterism co-exist?
> The reason I'm asking is the more Bible study I perform it appears all three are true.
> Either that or every verse has a parallel meaning between the destruction of Jerusalem and destruction of the Earth and both of those event were or will be elected or predetermined. Both events were prophesied, both were predestined.


I do not see this as possible. Does God purpose to do anything in time? Or is God's purpose eternal and evidenced in time?
"According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord" Ephesians 3:11


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## hobbs27

I'm trying to take down my own presuppositions and allow scripture to answer this for me. It was interesting to note that Baptism is an old practice in the Jewish faith dating back to Moses.


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## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> I'm trying to take down my own presuppositions and allow scripture to answer this for me. It was interesting to note that Baptism is an old practice in the Jewish faith dating back to Moses.


Please present them if you will. Or can we agree with Paul? 
"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." Romans 8:30


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Please present them if you will. Or can we agree with Paul?
> "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." Romans 8:30



 Does repentance come first or being born again? Doesn't repentance come from man and then he is granted salvation?
Does a man at some point in his conversion believe he can no longer save himself and thus need to repent or change his mind into believing Jesus is needed?
We have verses that faith comes from God, is repentance from God?  If repentance is from God, why does Jesus require it from us or does he?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               To answer my own question:

2 Timothy 2:25 (ESV) 
 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 

Acts 11:18 (ESV) 
 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

Even if repentance is a gift from God does it prove election? Perhaps God grants me the notion that I can't save myself or lets me know or come to realize I can't save myself. Repentance awakens us to our desperate need of grace and thus prepares us to receive Christ. 
I'm trying to approach this like an alcoholic needing to realize he is an alcoholic. A person who believes he can save himself must come to realize he needs Jesus to save him. Maybe then God grants repentance.


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## hobbs27

gemcgrew said:


> Please present them if you will. Or can we agree with Paul?
> "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." Romans 8:30



Currently my belief is in a spiritual baptism being necessary for salvation, but I'm open to what was taught in the sermon I posted for Art a couple of posts up. The Pastor delivering that is a calvinist and preterist, you can listen to the last few minutes of it to get his summary, the rest he goes over scripture and biblical history explaining his conclusion which is water baptism is necessary, is not a work of us, and comes from the foundation of the world...Interesting thought to me.


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## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> The Pastor delivering that is a calvinist and preterist, you can listen to the last few minutes of it to get his summary, the rest he goes over scripture and biblical history explaining his conclusion which is water baptism is necessary, is not a work of us, and comes from the foundation of the world...Interesting thought to me.



I listened to the last ten minutes and have two comments:

1)  "You are not far from the kingdom of God." - Mk. 12:34

2)  He was recently "called" to be the pastor of that church.  If he keeps this up, his days may be numbered.


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## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> Does repentance come first or being born again? Doesn't repentance come from man and then he is granted salvation?
> Does a man at some point in his conversion believe he can no longer save himself and thus need to repent or change his mind into believing Jesus is needed?
> We have verses that faith comes from God, is repentance from God?  If repentance is from God, why does Jesus require it from us or does he?
> To answer my own question:
> 
> 2 Timothy 2:25 (ESV)
> correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
> 
> Acts 11:18 (ESV)
> When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”
> 
> Even if repentance is a gift from God does it prove election? Perhaps God grants me the notion that I can't save myself or lets me know or come to realize I can't save myself. Repentance awakens us to our desperate need of grace and thus prepares us to receive Christ.
> I'm trying to approach this like an alcoholic needing to realize he is an alcoholic. A person who believes he can save himself must come to realize he needs Jesus to save him. Maybe then God grants repentance.



Repentance is change in my understanding of things. From personal experience when Jesus showed up for me to the degree I was willing and did say "Yes." or when He asked me to come in,  and I agreed, the change or repentance was immediate and with no effort from myself. Before this time repentance had been regret with intense personal sorrow for me. But instead, I sort of did like Zackaria and  stuck my body in the Lord's way and He said "Come on... walk!" And I've been trying to keep up ever since with "the change" where it is no effort to be. It was then easy to love and sometimes in an overwhelming  way-- perhaps because it was so new.

I like to think that this is what was given to the gentiles and it was repentance or "The Change". It was all God's work, except willingness to listen to the apostles and evangelist and the small and  sincere effort to say "Yes." like you were in a prize fight and you put everything, and I mean everything, in one last punch! And your old self is knocked out and now your new self, the champ, you will be forever undefeated.


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## Artfuldodger

gordon 2 said:


> Repentance is change in my understanding of things. From personal experience when Jesus showed up for me to the degree I was willing and did say "Yes." or when He asked me to come in,  and I agreed, the change or repentance was immediate and with no effort from myself. Before this time repentance had been regret with intense personal sorrow for me. But instead, I sort of did like Zackaria and  stuck my body in the Lord's way and He said "Come on... walk!" And I've been trying to keep up ever since with "the change" where it is no effort to be. It was then easy to love and sometimes in an overwhelming  way-- perhaps because it was so new.
> 
> I like to think that this is what was given to the gentiles and it was repentance or "The Change". It was all God's work, except willingness to listen to the apostles and evangelist and the small and  sincere effort to say "Yes." like you were in a prize fight and you put everything, and I mean everything, in one last punch! And your old self is knocked out and now your new self, the champ, you will be forever undefeated.



Maybe the examples I gave of God granting repentance is change but not the change required from me to change my way of thinking.

2 Timothy 2:25 (ESV) 
correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 

Acts 11:18 (ESV) 
When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

In the Timothy example the change granted can  lead to the truth. In the Acts example the change granted leads to life. It gave Gentiles a chance at salvation/life. It doesn't mean God gave every Gentile his repentance to change his way of thinking.


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Please present them if you will. Or can we agree with Paul?
> "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." Romans 8:30



How does a totally depraved sinner repent?


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## Artfuldodger

Luke 23:34                                                                                               Father Forgive Them For They Know Not What They Do.

Why did Jesus ask his Father to forgive these "totally depraved" sinners? They showed no repentance. How could they if they were totally depraved?


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## Israel

In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

It's all a gift. A gift to those who don't know what they are doing.
Not to become then, those who know what they are doing. But to know they don't know what they are doing.


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## Mako22

Another spiritual subject that most on here have no clue about.


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> How does a totally depraved sinner repent?


By the goodness of God.


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## hobbs27

Israel said:


> In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
> 
> It's all a gift. A gift to those who don't know what they are doing.
> Not to become then, those who know what they are doing. But to know they don't know what they are doing.



Yep, I'm afraid I would fail the test if it were on knowledge. I would certainly fail if it were given by man's judgement, only by Gods grace is some pathetic being like myself made to be present with the Lord. We all deserve to perish.


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## hobbs27

Woodsman69 said:


> Another spiritual subject that most on here have no clue about.



Maybe one of these days you will muster up enough courage to teach us. My hope for you is that you can overcome that yellow streak and share the awesome wisdom you have.


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> By the goodness of God.



It's ironic to view free will when we read of God fullfilling his prophesy.  It is by the goodness of God. We know not what we do yet are commanded to repent.

Acts 3:18
But God was fulfilling what all the prophets had foretold about the Messiah--that he must suffer these things.
19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,


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## Artfuldodger

Acts 1:16
"Brothers," he said, "the Scriptures had to be fulfilled concerning Judas, who guided those who arrested Jesus. This was predicted long ago by the Holy Spirit, speaking through King David.
(Judas knew not what he was doing although it didn't matter.)

18With the payment he received for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out

Acts 2:23
This man was handed over to you by God's deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
38 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."

Acts 2:40
With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation."
(save yourselves?)

Acts 2;41
Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
(back to having a choice?)


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## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> Maybe one of these days you will muster up enough courage to teach us. My hope for you is that you can overcome that yellow streak and share the awesome wisdom you have.



Don't hold your breath.


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> Acts 2;41
> Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
> (back to having a choice?)


Back to conversion, regeneration.

Conversion always precedes belief. Art, if you are an unbeliever in a thing, would you not have to be converted in order to believe in that thing?

Look back to 2:37, "Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

Edited to add: Art, I have yet to meet an Atheist who will not tell me what it would take in order for them to believe in God. All they lack is conversion. I have converted Atheist through the force of evidence, through the force of argumentation. It is always temporary. Now, when God does this, it is permanent. Nothing can snatch it away. I have recently gone through a time of sifting and came out of it... praising God for the sifting.


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Back to conversion, regeneration.
> 
> Conversion always precedes belief. Art, if you are an unbeliever in a thing, would you not have to be converted in order to believe in that thing?
> 
> Look back to 2:37, "Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?"



And while I can see that, I could understand it better if  I didn't neet to repent after my heart is pricked. 
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


God commands all people to repent. Why command all to repent if only a few are elected?
Acts 17:30
The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,


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## Israel

Artfuldodger said:


> And while I can see that, I could understand it better if  I didn't neet to repent after my heart is pricked.
> Acts 2:38
> Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
> 
> 
> God commands all people to repent. Why command all to repent if only a few are elected?
> Acts 17:30
> The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,



Why indeed.


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Back to conversion, regeneration.
> 
> Conversion always precedes belief. Art, if you are an unbeliever in a thing, would you not have to be converted in order to believe in that thing?
> 
> Look back to 2:37, "Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
> 
> Edited to add: Art, I have yet to meet an Atheist who will not tell me what it would take in order for them to believe in God. All they lack is conversion. I have converted Atheist through the force of evidence, through the force of argumentation. It is always temporary. Now, when God does this, it is permanent. Nothing can snatch it away. I have recently gone through a time of sifting and came out of it... praising God for the sifting.



I've been thinking of this some more and it reminds me of the Chicken or the Egg question regarding believing and repenting. I view faith as believing and repentance as conversion. Some say it is the two sides of the same coin. If it is then all would happen simultaneously. When one truly believes in Jesus he will repent. This does take faith. It will all happen at the same time.


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## Artfuldodger

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 10:43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.

Repentance or belief/faith for remission of sins? Can we narrow salvation down to just one word other than Jesus? Words such as faith, believe, repent. Can a person have one without the other? Does it really matter in what order they happen if not all at once?
Repentance brings a man to the place of wanting a right relationship with God. Faith achieves that relationship.

I can't say for sure God Elects me to do any of this but I do believe he helps me and guides me if I'm willing. Salvation is from God's grace but I see the "if" of repentance. To me this repentance is the command from Jesus to change. Not from changing to a Christian who doesn't sin but from a Christian who isn't a slave to sin. But mostly repentance means from believing I can save myself by law keeping/not sinning into believing I can't and thus need Jesus.
I believe that I must decide that. I believe as Jesus commanded, I must repent.

OK, chapter 2: why didn't Judas get to repent? Why did Jesus tell his Father to forgive the people who were killing him? They didn't repent. Why didn't they know what they were doing? Reading the Bible I see so much prophesy, hardening of the hearts, etc. that it makes me think I don't have a choice. If God has made everything happen from Adam sinning, a whole covenant to prove we can't keep laws and not sin, to give us his son as a Messiah, why should I believe I have a choice? Why must I repent? If I do repent was it me or God giving me the gift of repentance?
Why do most people see destiny as one way or the other but I see it as a little of choice and intervention?


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## Artfuldodger

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD has made everything for his own purposes, even the wicked for a day of disaster.

When God does this as in the case of Judas or Pharaoh, does he allow them to repent or give them the gift to repent?

Exodus 9:27
And Pharaoh sent, and called for Moses and Aaron, and said unto them, I have sinned this time: the Lord is righteous, and I and my people are wicked.

Matthew 27:3
Then Judas, who had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the princes of the priests and the elders,


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## Artfuldodger

This is confusing to me:
God is 'not willing' that any should perish. God desires that we all repent, but not everyone will. People still sin in spite of God's stated desire. 
Right away I see a conflict between God's desires and his will. Now if God isn't controlling our destiny, how is it possible for him to use our sin for his purpose such as in the case of Judas or Pharaoh?
I did find the following article of the explanation which is still confusing:

In theology, when examining this issue of God's will and His allowance of sin, we distinguish between what is called God's perfect will and His permissive will.  In His perfect will, He desires that all refrain from sin.  But in His permissive will, He allows people to sin.  In this sense, He has two wills regarding sin.
When people sin, God uses it, and other sins, for His glory and purpose.  Please recall the account of Joseph's brothers who sinned by selling him into slavery and then lying to their father about it.  After many years when the family was reunited, Joseph said, "And as for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive" (Gen. 50:20).  God meant it for good?  How could that be if God is only passively allowing things to occur?  Here, Joseph states that God had a purpose in their sin.  Though God does not want sin, He made provision for it in His divine plan and even used the sinful deeds of people to accomplish His ultimate will.  Consider also how evil people conspired against Jesus to bring Him to death.  Was this God's plan that they do this?

http://www.mslick.com/desireall.htm

My question is why would God need to make a provision in his divine plan for sin? This explanation makes it appear that God doesn't use the wicked for his purpose except by accidental default by sin. He only used Pharaoh or Judas for his purpose by their own fate instead of controlling their fate. This article or explanation is from the "Calvinist Corner" which makes it even more confusing as I thought they believed God is in total control of everyone's fate! If God is controlling my destiny, how can he have permissive will?


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## hobbs27

I don't have an answer Art. I have ideas and beliefs but to make all scripture fit my ideas I can't do at this time. As a side note though, I think the author above should not be using Judas as an example. Judas was acting on behalf of the Holy Ghost that those things must have been done..Acts 1:16-17.


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> This article or explanation is from the "Calvinist Corner" which makes it even more confusing as I thought they believed God is in total control of everyone's fate! If God is controlling my destiny, how can he have permissive will?


Most Calvinist do not believe that God is in control. They tend to embrace some form of dualism(a double-minded god) to justify their position. They label those that do as Hyper Calvinist. They define Hyper Calvinism in such a way that even the Hyper Calvinist don't know any.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> I don't have an answer Art. I have ideas and beliefs but to make all scripture fit my ideas I can't do at this time. As a side note though, I think the author above should not be using Judas as an example. Judas was acting on behalf of the Holy Ghost that those things must have been done..Acts 1:16-17.



The author didn't use Judas as an example, he uses Joseph's brothers. I used Judas as an example.


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Most Calvinist do not believe that God is in control. They tend to embrace some form of dualism(a double-minded god) to justify their position. They label those that do as Hyper Calvinist. They define Hyper Calvinism in such a way that even the Hyper Calvinist don't know any.



That must be what he meant by God's perfect will and His permissive will. Do you see God's desire being different from his will?


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## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> Most Calvinist do not believe that God is in control. They tend to embrace some form of dualism(a double-minded god) to justify their position. They label those that do as Hyper Calvinist. They define Hyper Calvinism in such a way that even the Hyper Calvinist don't know any.



Other than the Bible, what is a good book on Calvinist/Reformed theology?


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## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> Other than the Bible, what is a good book on Calvinist/Reformed theology?


I am currently reading Systematic Theology by Vincent Cheung.

http://www.vincentcheung.com/books/Systematic Theology (2010).pdf


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> I am currently reading Systematic Theology by Vincent Cheung.
> 
> http://www.vincentcheung.com/books/Systematic Theology (2010).pdf



It'll take awhile to read that. One point I noticed  from the beginning of the book is Jeremiah 9:23-24

Thus says the LORD, "Let not a wise man boast of his wisdom, and let not the mighty man boast of his might, let not a rich man boast of his riches; 24but let him who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD who exercises lovingkindness, justice and righteousness on earth; for I delight in these things," declares the LORD.


That's a good starting lesson to knowledge or anything else for that matter. I don't believe I'll ever be at a point in my wisdom to boast about it so I can only boast about the Lord.


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## hawglips

Baptism is an outward expression of an inward change of heart.   Lots of things in the gospel are like that.


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## thedeacon

Its a shame that we spend so much time trying to convince ourselves what we don't have to do and so little time concerning ourselves about we "CAN" do. 

We are told that the truth will set us free, whats is the truth and what is freedom? Maybe we should understand that before we start preaching what we should do to get there. A lady ask me one time if it was necessary to attend the Wednesday night services. I told her no, of course not, I told her I was much more concerned with her reason of not wanting to go than I was her not going.

We seem to want to pick and choose as little as possible that we, Have to do rather than search for the truth.

Is baptism necessary? It is certainly important, read the book of Acts, they were all baptized, important enough to baptize three thousand in one day. Is studying the bible necessary or is it important.

Study to show thyself approved unto God, A workman that needs not to be ashamed

We can play with words all we want to but Baptism is there, it was taught. Paul on the road meet Jesus face to face. Do you think he was saved there, the word says he wasn't, in the city after being blind and sick for days was told to arise and wash away his sins, What sins? What sin was he guilty of committing the short time since  he had met the Lord.
Is baptism necessary, I think so but I think most of you here feel the same way, we just want to play with words.
Can you go to heaven without baptism, maybe, God has not afforded me that high of a position to condemn others from their eternal home.
All I can do is search for the Truth, the real Truth that comes from God, I must reach the decision of what the Truth is on my own. I cannot depend on anyone to find it for me, I do not trust anyone that much. We must look forward to heaven and to everything we can to serve God and not worry about what we have to do and what we don't have to do.

Just my opinion


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## hobbs27

Its easy to say Baptism is not necessary, I know, I've done it. I also remember wanting it...no, needing it after I was first saved. 

 The act itself was not the spiritual birth I had just felt through being saved, but I believe God placed that burden on me to have it done soon for Him. Did anyone else feel that need?


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## centerpin fan

thedeacon said:


> Its a shame that we spend so much time trying to convince ourselves what we don't have to do and so little time concerning ourselves about we "CAN" do.
> 
> We are told that the truth will set us free, whats is the truth and what is freedom? Maybe we should understand that before we start preaching what we should do to get there. A lady ask me one time if it was necessary to attend the Wednesday night services. I told her no, of course not, I told her I was much more concerned with her reason of not wanting to go than I was her not going.
> 
> We seem to want to pick and choose as little as possible that we, Have to do rather than search for the truth.
> 
> Is baptism necessary? It is certainly important, read the book of Acts, they were all baptized, important enough to baptize three thousand in one day. Is studying the bible necessary or is it important.
> 
> Study to show thyself approved unto God, A workman that needs not to be ashamed
> 
> We can play with words all we want to but Baptism is there, it was taught. Paul on the road meet Jesus face to face. Do you think he was saved there, the word says he wasn't, in the city after being blind and sick for days was told to arise and wash away his sins, What sins? What sin was he guilty of committing the short time since  he had met the Lord.
> Is baptism necessary, I think so but I think most of you here feel the same way, we just want to play with words.
> Can you go to heaven without baptism, maybe, God has not afforded me that high of a position to condemn others from their eternal home.
> All I can do is search for the Truth, the real Truth that comes from God, I must reach the decision of what the Truth is on my own. I cannot depend on anyone to find it for me, I do not trust anyone that much. We must look forward to heaven and to everything we can to serve God and not worry about what we have to do and what we don't have to do.
> 
> Just my opinion



Hey deacon!  Long time, no see.


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## barryl

thedeacon said:


> Its a shame that we spend so much time trying to convince ourselves what we don't have to do and so little time concerning ourselves about we "CAN" do.
> 
> We are told that the truth will set us free, whats is the truth and what is freedom? Maybe we should understand that before we start preaching what we should do to get there. A lady ask me one time if it was necessary to attend the Wednesday night services. I told her no, of course not, I told her I was much more concerned with her reason of not wanting to go than I was her not going.
> 
> We seem to want to pick and choose as little as possible that we, Have to do rather than search for the truth.
> 
> Is baptism necessary? It is certainly important, read the book of Acts, they were all baptized, important enough to baptize three thousand in one day. Is studying the bible necessary or is it important.
> 
> Study to show thyself approved unto God, A workman that needs not to be ashamed
> 
> We can play with words all we want to but Baptism is there, it was taught. Paul on the road meet Jesus face to face. Do you think he was saved there, the word says he wasn't, in the city after being blind and sick for days was told to arise and wash away his sins, What sins? What sin was he guilty of committing the short time since  he had met the Lord.
> Is baptism necessary, I think so but I think most of you here feel the same way, we just want to play with words.
> Can you go to heaven without baptism, maybe, God has not afforded me that high of a position to condemn others from their eternal home.
> All I can do is search for the Truth, the real Truth that comes from God, I must reach the decision of what the Truth is on my own. I cannot depend on anyone to find it for me, I do not trust anyone that much. We must look forward to heaven and to everything we can to serve God and not worry about what we have to do and what we don't have to do.
> 
> Just my opinion


Lets play, Acts 22:16 A classic case of "Wrongly" Dividing the word of truth. If you notice in verse 12-And one Ananias, a devout man according to the "law", having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,(CONTEXT) Ananias wasn't making a statement on the N.T. doctrine of salvation. Ananias was connecting water baptism, (washing the filth of the flesh)per verse 12(faith+works) with the Jewish "purification of the flesh." John 3:24-25, Heb. 9:19,23 Num. 19:9, 13, 17,20 KJV AV 1611. 1 Peter 3:21(a figure) Will tell you that N.T. baptism is the "answer of a good conscience toward God." It is a very sad thing that people today think that "every verse" in the word of God applies to them Doctrinally. 1 Cor. 2:13- "comparing spiritual things with spiritual".


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## thedeacon

I read the whole book of Matthew last week, "slow". After reading it I might have a different attitude about what Jesus brought to us. I don't believe he brought us a new set of rules or laws but a new spiritual attitude or lifestyle, if you please. A totally different relationship to God through Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
Take the beatitudes, not laws but a new way of thinking that starts with Grace and Mercy. 
They are necessities but they are not obeyed that way. They are obeyed out of love and a desire to please God.

Just a short brain spurt.

We are more concerned with what we Have to do or what we don't have to do than we are about what we can do or get to do.

My salvation is not based on baptism, or repentance, or good deeds, or knowledge, or confession, or belief, etc. It is based on love, the love God has for me and my love for God and my desire to please him in any way that I can. My life must be a continued, honest extension of the life of Jesus.

When I look at baptism, I have to be baptized, why? Not because of a command that I think is there, I do it because I know it will please God. I go to church on Wed night for the same reason I give to the poor, because it will please God.

I do not condemn anyone here for their belief, so please don't condemn me, I just want to do what pleases God.


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## thedeacon

centerpin fan said:


> Hey deacon!  Long time, no see.



I been around,just not much to say. Sometimes what you don't say means more than what you do say.


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## Artfuldodger

I was actually more interested in the meaning of the baptism John performed vs the baptism Jesus required. Mostly how either is related to repentance. 
I'm reminded of the thief on the cross' repentance. His repentance was knowing he was a sinner and thus should die an everlasting death. His repentance was knowing that Jesus could save him from this death. Never once did this thief promise that he would sin no more. The thief had faith that Jesus was who he said he was, that Jesus didn't do anything wrong, and that he wanted Jesus to remember him in his Kingdom. Jesus said that he would.


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## Israel

Jesus has to smoke the robot's CPU.
He does with the perfect reasoning that fries the core.
The perfect reason is...He is.
Lord.


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## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> I was actually more interested in the meaning of the baptism John performed vs the baptism Jesus required. Mostly how either is related to repentance.
> I'm reminded of the thief on the cross' repentance. His repentance was knowing he was a sinner and thus should die an everlasting death. His repentance was knowing that Jesus could save him from this death. Never once did this thief promise that he would sin no more. The thief had faith that Jesus was who he said he was, that Jesus didn't do anything wrong, and that he wanted Jesus to remember him in his Kingdom. Jesus said that he would.



Yours is a question that would be better definately answered by an academic...  and I am not. However:

My intuitive assessment of John's Baptish is that it was a rededication and the Spirit was ministering through John. He was a prophet after all. His baptism was an opportunity for people( who had not yet received the  original spirit of Adam) to become close to the Spirit of Yahweh. Note that scripture says people were "with the Spirit" before the ministry of Jesus.

It is my understanding that it was a tradition that the Jews did baptize gentiles who converted to Judaism. John however was baptizing Jews!  Possibly, people flocking to John wanted an intimate and personal connection to God or personally vigorous spiritual lives. God was ministering through John and John was baptizing Jews! They wanted some of this. 

 On the other hand, it is my understanding that two basic things happen at our baptism ( christian baptism). a) a new member is introduced to the religious community ( christian community). b) one is born again with a totally new spirit.

This new spirit is what distinguishes Christian baptism from John's. John's people are still with the spirit of man, man of the fall.  The christian baptism is a rebirth of the spirit which Adam possessed previous to the fall. As Isreal says, the old spiritual man is "smoked"! Or in usual words, our baptism removes "original sin".  It is a free gift. John advised people to be baptized and repent or change. With our baptism one is changed, no need to repent. The work was done on the cross...etc...


Later or immediately, depending on the maturity of the individual baptized... one can chose to be with the Spirit by becoming a disciple. The choice of this free gift ( the Holy Spirit), afforded to us by the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross and His resurrection, is available to all who are baptized in the christian traditions. This union of the christian spirit, the spirit of Adam with the Holy Spirit, is unlike the union of the former spirit of man to the Holy Spirit. It is a union that was meant to be from the get go!

The traditions or rites  themselves which join the born again spirit of man, proper to baptism, with the Spirit, or the Holy Spirit, can be baptism itself ( baptism preformed by a christian), prayer, Sinner's Prayer, the Alter Call, Confirmation (catholic tradition) and the laying of hands by elders, and possible other traditions, all agreed to as per the conscious choice of the individual.

Where an individual is not able to make a choice, his innocence received at our baptism is his/her salvation. For those who can make choices their salvation  comes about for their choice to join their born again spirit to the Holy Spirit...which is possible only of the free gift of God. (His grace.). 

Once the born again spirit of man is joined with the Holy Spirit the Kingdom which Jesus talks about as related to in scripture and promised to the apostles and the thief on the cross, becomes visible to disciples or believers.  In this way, the Kingdom and the teachings of Jesus become lively within the lives of and lived by the saints who are born again spiritually as per Jesus, the second Adam and in communion with God through the ministering of the Holy Spirit...because of their choice to do so.  


Hope this has not muddled things worse then before. They are my notes... and not cut on God's tablets... I don't know everything... and the things I know are soon forgotten.


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## gemcgrew

gordon 2 said:


> Where an individual is not able to make a choice, his innocence received at our baptism is his/her salvation. For those who can make choices their salvation  comes about for their choice to join their born again spirit to the Holy Spirit...which is possible only of the free gift of God. (His grace.).


Who are these innocent individuals? If I am understanding you correctly, you have an individual or a group of individuals in mind.


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## Israel

Do everything that appears unnecessary, counterintuitive, and unproductive...just because the Lord has told you.
And what you are sure no one but you could do "right"...don't.


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## gordon 2

gemcgrew said:


> Who are these innocent individuals? If I am understanding you correctly, you have an individual or a group of individuals in mind.



I was thinking of baptized children or young adults and for the most part other people who are cognitively unable to make choices and take on the responsibilities regards discipleship. 

I know that every zebra known to faith is able to kick my derriere for what I have written...even the ones that I herd with...but my intention was to try to point out differences between two baptisms, our's and John's.

Perhaps it is my notion that since baptized children, young adults and  people in general who cannot take responsibility for their actions...haveing received  the born again spirit as conferred by baptism, which in my view is the spirit of man prior to the fall, they cannot  however chose relationship. ( I also understand that in some traditions the spirit and the Spirit is conferred at the same time.)  Unable to chose and govern their wills they are none the less, pure and wholesome spiritually (  innocent) for having received the born again spirit of man through Christ. Note I don't mean they were born innocent, but that baptism makes them such as it is being born again...spiritually.

Original sin, inherited sin has been taken away... and since they are not responsible for anything we might view as sin to a mature and intact person, which they are not or can be... then they remain innocent. I suppose this begs the question when is an action sinful and why?

Maybe, perhaps....


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## Artfuldodger

Baptism is a cleansing or washing. While water does a good job of cleaning or washing dirt from one's body, it's not very useful for removing sin. 
John admitted that he used water. He did say Jesus uses the Holy Spirit & fire. While their methods were different, did they  both Baptize for the remission of sins? 
They both used different elements but wasn't the purpose the same? Purpose being the remission of sins.
Regardless Baptism was the beginning of a rebirth. 
I'm trying to also see how one man baptizing another man does the required washing or cleansing of sins, including John.
I can see how Jesus baptizing someone can wash away sin, but a man, even a prophet? No way.


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## Artfuldodger

John said " I baptize you with water for repentance." 
Repentance being a change or conversion. 
Water can do this?


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## Artfuldodger

When Jesus baptized his followers, did he use water? If not water which I don't recall him using on others, how was it possible to use the Holy Spirit as he had not asked his Father to send yet?


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## Artfuldodger

I think both John's baptisms and Jesus' baptisms are both for repentance.
When one repents and believes, he is baptized by the Holy Spirit.
When were the Old testament saints  baptized with the Holy Spirit?
Jesus did not baptize with water.


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## Artfuldodger

For some reason Jesus let his disciples baptize with water instead of himself. I guess because John said Jesus didn't use water.

John's baptism was a baptism of repentance for the remission of sin. Why did he baptize Jesus? I could only speculate because Jesus took on humanities sin. Unless Jesus needed to repent or change for some reason other than us.


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## Artfuldodger

“This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”–Matt. 3:17.
Jesus had a choice? Was this just a symbolic act of obedience?

We often associate the word “repentance” with sin and condemnation. The actual word by itself has nothing to do with either sin or condemnation. Can you repent without having to repent of a sin? Yes! Let me explain: Do you ever change your mind? Have you ever changed your job? Do you ever change from what you are doing? That is repentance! That is “metanoia”! The Greek word for repentance is “metanoia”. That means “to change your mind”. In the Greek, John’s baptism was a baptism of “metanoia”. It was a baptism of changing your mind, which results in a change of action.
Jesus didn’t need to turn from sin like everyone else, but He did need to “metanoia” in order “to fulfill all righteousness” (Matt. 3:15). What is the antonym for the word “fulfill”? The opposite of fulfill is to halt. Something had been halted or delayed that prevented the “fulfilling of all righteousness”. In order to fulfill righteousness, He had to change from what He had been doing in the past, and now do the business that needed to be done.

http://defrostingwindows.wordpress.com/2014/05/04/matthew-3-why-did-jesus-get-baptized/


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## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> Baptism is a cleansing or washing. While water does a good job of cleaning or washing dirt from one's body, it's not very useful for removing sin.
> John admitted that he used water. He did say Jesus uses the Holy Spirit & fire. While their methods were different, did they  both Baptize for the remission of sins?
> They both used different elements but wasn't the purpose the same? Purpose being the remission of sins.
> Regardless Baptism was the beginning of a rebirth.
> I'm trying to also see how one man baptizing another man does the required washing or cleansing of sins, including John.
> I can see how Jesus baptizing someone can wash away sin, but a man, even a prophet? No way.




As for baptism via the Holy Spirit and fire I have always come back to this in scripture. I don't know why, really.


1 Corinthians 15

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

As regards "the washing and cleaning of sins" and John. 

People in John's day had faith. It is my understanding that faith  and repentance go hand in hand ( then and now). Or put another way change and faith go hand and hand. Or put yet another way change of mind and faith go hand in hand.  Or repentance is a part of faith and always has been.


Consider how many times Jesus is said to mention faith? The power of faith to save?


Now if one repents in faith are sins forgiven? I would think so. They are also forgotten. If John's ministry was to put vigor back into people's faith, their repentance was a "washing and cleaning of sin".


The sins of the world stem of the original sin.  In faith we repent for these sins.    
On the otherhand, for the Cross, " younder breaks a new and glorious morn" as original sin is removed from one's  spiritual makeup--yet still present in the flesh, in the world. This flesh, the world, must be "sown" and then its ressurection.


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## Artfuldodger

Acts 2:38-42 (ESV)

38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” 40 And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” 41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

Regardless of who or when baptism takes place, water can't wash away sins. This cleansing can only be accomplished by the death of Jesus on the cross. Baptism is the cleansing that occurs at repentance.


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## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> Acts 2:38-42 (ESV)
> 
> 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” 40 And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” 41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
> 
> Regardless of who or when baptism takes place, water can't wash away sins. This cleansing can only be accomplished by the death of Jesus on the cross. Baptism is the cleansing that occurs at repentance.



Ok. Good stuff. I really don't know why all the questions if you had the answers from the get go. Just curious, were you ever baptized with H20?


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## Artfuldodger

gordon 2 said:


> Ok. Good stuff. I really don't know why all the questions if you had the answers from the get go. Just curious, were you ever baptized with H20?



Most definitely don't have all the answers. I don't even have all the answers to the questions I asked in this thread. You've done a good job explaining some things. Sometimes I just walk away and let the mystery be. Then I'll re-address it at a later date as things sink in. Peter did say "repent and be baptized." That's got to mean something.
I was baptized with water in a Baptist Church. Are there any Churches that don't baptize with water?


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## Big7

Oh... LORD!

Have yo' infants Baptized.

Like Forrest Gump said "ONE LESS THANG!"


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## Israel

Big7 said:


> Oh... LORD!
> 
> Have yo' infants Baptized.
> 
> Like Forrest Gump said "ONE LESS THANG!"


Really? Kinda like "get it out of the way"?


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## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> It is my understanding that it was a tradition that the Jews did baptize gentiles who converted to Judaism. John however was baptizing Jews!  Possibly, people flocking to John wanted an intimate and personal connection to God or personally vigorous spiritual lives. God was ministering through John and John was baptizing Jews! They wanted some of this.
> .



 This sparked a memory, and put me to studying, thanks.

Consider this. John came to prepare the way for Christ. Christ was coming to bring a new covenant to man. John called the Jews seeking baptism " brood of vipers". 

 John asked them to repent and be baptized. I believe they were to repent of being sons of Abraham & be baptized into the new covenant as sons of God. They were basically rejecting the Old covenant and accepting the new coming covenant. The baptism represented the fact that they were no longer protected by a physical Jewish birth right.

 John made it clear that his baptism was one of water and not one of salvation. That baptism could only come from Christ.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> This sparked a memory, and put me to studying, thanks.
> 
> Consider this. John came to prepare the way for Christ. Christ was coming to bring a new covenant to man. John called the Jews seeking baptism " brood of vipers".
> 
> John asked them to repent and be baptized. I believe they were to repent of being sons of Abraham & be baptized into the new covenant as sons of God. They were basically rejecting the Old covenant and accepting the new coming covenant. The baptism represented the fact that they were no longer protected by a physical Jewish birth right.
> 
> John made it clear that his baptism was one of water and not one of salvation. That baptism could only come from Christ.



I'm glad it sparked a memory and put you into a study mode. Thanks for sharing. It opened a light in me as a different way of looking at what John was asking of these Jews. Being asked to abandon being a son of Abraham for Jesus must have been hard. I'm trying to see this in their eyes instead of mine. It's almost like being asked to convert to a new religion. Would you ask your parents, what about your wife? Give up a birthright to follow a redeemer who had not even showed up yet? 
That would be a hard repentance. That would take extreme faith. I can see that repentance/change was harder for Jews than Gentiles. Yet some wonder why. 
This might be the best light i've seen in this thread.


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## Artfuldodger

Salvation, that baptism could only come from Christ.

Meaning what Christ did? Yet John had convinced these Jews to repent and become sons of God under the New Covenant. A new covenant that wasn't even in affect yet. A Messiah that hadn't showed up yet.
I'm still having trouble seeing a difference from my repentance and the Jews that John baptized. What about the thief on the cross, he repented before Jesus finished his work on the cross?
God can have mercy on whom he will have mercy. Was it a promised salvation not gained at repentance but when Jesus died?
If one had faith that Jesus was who he said he was, repented & believed, why did they need to wait until Jesus actually died?


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## Artfuldodger

It's as if there was a gray area between the Old and New Covenant. I'm not even sure when the New Covenant started, when Jesus died, Pentecost, 70AD?
Regardless there was some sort of transitional period between the two covenants that is somewhat confusing as to following Laws, repentance, salvation, souls of the dead, baptisms, etc.
Naturally I didn't live in that period nor under the Old Covenant yet I do feel it is important to study both of these periods.
I do wish that this transitional period was not included under the New Testament of the Bible as it should have been inspired to have a different inclusion. That and the inspiration of some punctuation to include a few commas in the wrong place.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Salvation, that baptism could only come from Christ.
> 
> Meaning what Christ did? Yet John had convinced these Jews to repent and become sons of God under the New Covenant. A new covenant that wasn't even in affect yet. A Messiah that hadn't showed up yet.
> I'm still having trouble seeing a difference from my repentance and the Jews that John baptized. What about the thief on the cross, he repented before Jesus finished his work on the cross?
> God can have mercy on whom he will have mercy. Was it a promised salvation not gained at repentance but when Jesus died?
> If one had faith that Jesus was who he said he was, repented & believed, why did they need to wait until Jesus actually died?




What if water Baptism is the signature of the individual that enters into covenant with God? Could it be that Baptism has replaced circumcision?

I believe so, yet there is more to entering in covenant with God than baptism . One must receive faith in Christ, faith is what hindered the eunuch from being baptized, once faith was professed he could be baptized into the new covenant. John's baptism was a sign, and it must have been very humbling to reject your natural birth right from Abraham.

The thief on the cross died before the resurrection and went to paradise with other ot saints with Jesus that day. No doubt in my mind he received the blood there to seal his eternity.

As for the covenants ending and beginning. Many people have different views on this. My view is the New Covenant began with the resurrection. During that time the Old Covenant was also still in effect. For 40 years the Jews wondered between two covenants until the Old Covenant came to an end in 70 ad with the destruction of the temple. Others place the end of Old Covenant at the cross which I can understand that also. What we do know for certain is there is no longer a covenant between God and the nation of Israel and that covenant was definitely over at or before the temple destruction.


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## hobbs27

One more point before the question comes up. Baptism in the new covenant is not only for males of a certain race as circumcision was, the Old Covenant sign of circumcision was made with Abraham, the new covenant is made to whosoever will. Male & Female, and all races of people. It is important that all people with faith in Christ is baptized.


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## gemcgrew

In old and new, salvation is of the Lord. Same salvation from beginning to end... Christ alone. Nobody has or will ever be saved by something they did, are doing, or will do. Nobody has ever been saved by walking an aisle, saying a prayer, kneeling at an altar or making a decision.

It is a new creation. God works independently in salvation, just as in creation.


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## M80

We planted my pawpaw today. He was 88 years old and had pastored churches for the last 60 years. I heard an old saint telling us about His very first baptism. It was in a pond and he had 4 or 5 to baptize. The last one was a very large man. When pawpaw leaned him back the man stepped back with pawpaw and he just floated out in deeper water with pawpaw holding on. After a while of him trying to swim him back and get him under they both walked out of the pond. All was wet on the big man except a circle on his chest. With a long face he asked his older pastor of where he was called from "you think that was good enough."  With a big grin on the preachers face he said " I believe it will be fine".  I sure am glad it isn't the water that does the cleansing but the BLOOD of Jesus.


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## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> We planted my pawpaw today. He was 88 years old and had pastored churches for the last 60 years. I heard an old saint telling us about His very first baptism. It was in a pond and he had 4 or 5 to baptize. The last one was a very large man. When pawpaw leaned him back the man stepped back with pawpaw and he just floated out in deeper water with pawpaw holding on. After a while of him trying to swim him back and get him under they both walked out of the pond. All was wet on the big man except a circle on his chest. With a long face he asked his older pastor of where he was called from "you think that was good enough."  With a big grin on the preachers face he said " I believe it will be fine".  I sure am glad it isn't the water that does the cleansing but the BLOOD of Jesus.


Good stuff!


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## hobbs27

mwilliams80 said:


> We planted my pawpaw today. He was 88 years old and had pastored churches for the last 60 years. I heard an old saint telling us about His very first baptism. It was in a pond and he had 4 or 5 to baptize. The last one was a very large man. When pawpaw leaned him back the man stepped back with pawpaw and he just floated out in deeper water with pawpaw holding on. After a while of him trying to swim him back and get him under they both walked out of the pond. All was wet on the big man except a circle on his chest. With a long face he asked his older pastor of where he was called from "you think that was good enough."  With a big grin on the preachers face he said " I believe it will be fine".  I sure am glad it isn't the water that does the cleansing but the BLOOD of Jesus.




I agree, but the more I read and study this issue the more important baptism is. I believe a born again Christian that refuses baptism is a Christian that is living in direct disobedience of God through His word.


----------



## M80

hobbs27 said:


> I agree, but the more I read and study this issue the more important baptism is. I believe a born again Christian that refuses baptism is a Christian that is living in direct disobedience of God through His word.



Amen, I agree


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> This sparked a memory, and put me to studying, thanks.
> 
> Consider this. John came to prepare the way for Christ. Christ was coming to bring a new covenant to man. John called the Jews seeking baptism " brood of vipers".
> 
> John asked them to repent and be baptized. I believe they were to repent of being sons of Abraham & be baptized into the new covenant as sons of God. They were basically rejecting the Old covenant and accepting the new coming covenant. The baptism represented the fact that they were no longer protected by a physical Jewish birth right.
> 
> John made it clear that his baptism was one of water and not one of salvation. That baptism could only come from Christ.




Could be, but I like simple explanations also. John and Jesus were from rural and small town Galilee. The spiritual authority was from Jerusalem. "Brood of vipers" is not unlike the names we can use to describe the places and peoples in authority today. 

Do you recall when Jesus is said to have overturned the vendor tables at the temple in Jerusalem? Try that at a church somewhere in Atlanta and see what happens today?!!!

Many parables refer to planting crops, or orchards. If the people making the Pilgrimage from Galilee were from fishing  and  crop growing areas, their offering to the temple was perhaps not what the authorities hoped for? Maybe. ( I have often thought of the breaking of bread as sacrifice somehow linked to this. Also it says at a couple of places in the Old Testament that when Jews are without the Temple, (when they were exiled for example), the sacrifice of the cult could be the breaking of bread..  I read wheat and grains.


Also, the  central spiritual authority was dancing with the  central political authority surely with disregard to the outlying areas.. and peoples .  Rural and rooted to the earth folk  with a sure sense of place and a spirituality with integrity still frown on that activity to this day. As a matter of fact when they all get together they can overturn governments today....

Just ideas....


----------



## gordon 2

mwilliams80 said:


> Amen, I agree



Ditto...! Agree also...


----------



## Big7

Israel said:


> Really? Kinda like "get it out of the way"?



Yeah.. I I'd get a bite on that one.

And.. Figured it would be you. 

Look to yo' right. Hot-chick in the black bikini.

Go poke yo' eyes out. You done seen it!

Love these new "advertisers"


----------



## Artfuldodger

Big7 said:


> Yeah.. I I'd get a bite on that one.
> 
> And.. Figured it would be you.
> 
> Look to yo' right. Hot-chick in the black bikini.
> 
> Go poke yo' eyes out. You done seen it!
> 
> Love these new "advertisers"



Mine is a tad chunky girl in a white dress.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> I agree, but the more I read and study this issue the more important baptism is. I believe a born again Christian that refuses baptism is a Christian that is living in direct disobedience of God through His word.



But the water doesn't remove anything. Even John said this. When Jesus comes he will baptize with the Holy Spirit & Fire? 
Nicodemus asked about re-entering his mother's womb. This was being born of water. We've all been born of water. 
What other birth do we now need to enter the Kingdom?
Jesus explains in John 3:5

Jesus answered Nicodemus, "I can guarantee this truth: No one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit.

The water of my natural birth washed away nothing. Being born again by the Spirit did. Does Jesus specifically command us to be baptized with water, spirit, or fire?


----------



## Ronnie T

Rather than theology, this is a subject best left to the record of God's Word.

Acts 19:1  It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2 He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4 Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ[/COLOR]." 

Romans 6:3 "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life." 

1 Peter 3:20-21"because [fn] they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," 

Colossians 2:9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

*Don't need no stinkin theology.  Just clear, simply words of God's Holy Spirit inspired apostles.
This isn't rocket science.
.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie, what you did in the previous post...

is theology.


----------



## gordon 2

gemcgrew said:


> Ronnie, what you did in the previous post...
> 
> is theology.



Call it what you like... It's darn good eating. I just hope the word stinking don't catch on again as an synonym for worldly.


----------



## Israel

His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters...

A girl in a bikini.
Clay in rags? 
Hot?
Really?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> Rather than theology, this is a subject best left to the record of God's Word.
> 
> Acts 19:1  It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2 He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4 Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
> 
> Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ[/COLOR]."
> 
> Romans 6:3 "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life."
> 
> 1 Peter 3:20-21"because [fn] they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"
> 
> Colossians 2:9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
> 
> *Don't need no stinkin theology.  Just clear, simply words of God's Holy Spirit inspired apostles.
> This isn't rocket science.
> .



None of these mention using water for the Baptism in the name of the Lord. Peter says this new baptism doesn't remove dirt. Water does.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> I agree, but the more I read and study this issue the more important baptism is. I believe a born again Christian that refuses baptism is a Christian that is living in direct disobedience of God through His word.



Would you say it's also a direct disobedience to God to be baptized in the name of any other than in Acts 19:5?

When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Jesus is the one who washed away our sins. Why would someone want to be baptized in any other name? With or without water?


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Would you say it's also a direct disobedience to God to be baptised in the name of any other than in Acts 19:5?
> 
> When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
> 
> Jesus is the one who washed away our sins. Why would someone want to be baptized in any other name? With or without water?



No. That's man being silly. God the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost wants people that have received faith (Christians) to be baptized. Baptized in Jesus, Almighty God , or Father, Son, Holy Ghost/ Spirit, all the same.
Obedience is better than sacrifice.


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> None of these mention using water for the Baptism in the name of the Lord. Peter says this new baptism doesn't remove dirt. Water does.



But they do.

Acts 19:5  5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> Would you say it's also a direct disobedience to God to be baptized in the name of any other than in Acts 19:5?
> 
> When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
> 
> Jesus is the one who washed away our sins. Why would someone want to be baptized in any other name? With or without water?



Some are even taught that they are baptized *into* a local church.  Weird huh?


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> Ronnie, what you did in the previous post...
> 
> is theology.



Theology:   the study of religious faith, practice, and experience : the study of God and God's relation to the world. : a system of religious beliefs or ideas.

You read those above scriptures and all the scriptures above and below those scriptures.  Leave your beliefs out of the reading.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Theology:   the study of religious faith, practice, and experience : the study of God and God's relation to the world. : a system of religious beliefs or ideas.
> 
> You read those above scriptures and all the scriptures above and below those scriptures.  Leave your beliefs out of the reading.





Just like you are doing with Acts 19:5? You believe it to be referring to those that Paul laid hands upon. It is referring to those that John baptized.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> Just like you are doing with Acts 19:5? You believe it to be referring to those that Paul laid hands upon. It is referring to those that John baptized.



You got to be kidding?  Right?  

Acts 19:1 It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2 He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4 Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

These verses are a historical accounting of Paul meeting some disciples of John who believed in Jesus, but who's baptism had not been sufficient.
They were properly baptized, then Paul laid his hand on them and they received gifts as the Holy Spirit purposed.
.
Am I missing something?


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> You got to be kidding?  Right?
> 
> Acts 19:1 It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2 He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4 Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.


Acts 19:1-7 "And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. And all the men were about twelve." (KJV)

Gill's Commentary
Acts 19:5

When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
When they heard this,.... That is, the people to whom John preached, his hearers; when they heard of the Messiah, and that Jesus was he, and that it became them to believe in him:

they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus; not the disciples that Paul found at Ephesus, but the hearers of John; for these are the words of the Apostle Paul, giving an account of John's baptism, and of the success of his ministry, showing, that his baptism was administered in the name of the Lord Jesus; and not the words of Luke the Evangelist, recording what followed upon his account of John's baptism; for then he would have made mention of the apostle's name, as he does in the next verse; and have said, when they heard this account, they were baptized by Paul in the name of the Lord Jesus: the historian reports two things, first what Paul said, which lies in Acts 19:4 then what he did, Acts 19:6 where he repeats his name, as was necessary; as that he laid his hands upon them, which was all that was needful to their receiving the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost, having been already baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus: which sense is the more confirmed by the particles and which answer to one another in verses 4 and 5, and show the words to be a continuation of the apostle's speech, and not the words of the historian, which begin in the next verse. Beza's ancient copy adds, "for the remission of sins". 



Ronnie T said:


> These verses are a historical accounting of Paul meeting some disciples of John who believed in Jesus, but who's baptism had not been sufficient.
> They were properly baptized, then Paul laid his hand on them and they received gifts as the Holy Spirit purposed.
> .
> Am I missing something?


That is a theological statement. Welcome to THEOLOGY!


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Acts 19:1-7 "And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. And all the men were about twelve." (KJV)
> 
> Gill's Commentary
> Acts 19:5
> 
> When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
> When they heard this,.... That is, the people to whom John preached, his hearers; when they heard of the Messiah, and that Jesus was he, and that it became them to believe in him:
> 
> they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus; not the disciples that Paul found at Ephesus, but the hearers of John; for these are the words of the Apostle Paul, giving an account of John's baptism, and of the success of his ministry, showing, that his baptism was administered in the name of the Lord Jesus; and not the words of Luke the Evangelist, recording what followed upon his account of John's baptism; for then he would have made mention of the apostle's name, as he does in the next verse; and have said, when they heard this account, they were baptized by Paul in the name of the Lord Jesus: the historian reports two things, first what Paul said, which lies in Acts 19:4 then what he did, Acts 19:6 where he repeats his name, as was necessary; as that he laid his hands upon them, which was all that was needful to their receiving the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost, having been already baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus: which sense is the more confirmed by the particles and which answer to one another in verses 4 and 5, and show the words to be a continuation of the apostle's speech, and not the words of the historian, which begin in the next verse. Beza's ancient copy adds, "for the remission of sins".
> 
> 
> That is a theological statement. Welcome to THEOLOGY!



You beat me to Gills' commentary. I've never thought of it referring to those that John baptized. Interesting,
I usually follow closely to Gill's commentary.


----------



## gordon 2

Ronnie T said:


> You got to be kidding?  Right?
> 
> Acts 19:1 It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2 He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4 Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
> 
> These verses are a historical accounting of Paul meeting some disciples of John who believed in Jesus, but who's baptism had not been sufficient.
> They were properly baptized, then Paul laid his hand on them and they received gifts as the Holy Spirit purposed.
> .
> Am I missing something?


No! You got it Pontiac!


----------



## gordon 2

Ronnie T said:


> Some are even taught that they are baptized *into* a local church.  Weird huh?



Yea, but what faith can see the local church not only in the name of Jesus, but as his body in the hear and now... 

So for Gordo this weird ain't no worry.  Mind you the local must be local to more than to just one or two hamlets.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Those disciples in Ephesus didn't know much about John, Jesus,repentance  or baptism. Somehow they were confused. They didn't even know why they were baptized, only  "into John's baptism."

I found this examination of Acts 19 interesting:

This examination should dispel the notion that the baptism of John was somehow different from the baptism of Christ. Both baptisms were to the same end, the only difference being that one was to prepare believing Jews and looked to the coming of the messiah and the cross, and the other was for everyone, after the Lordâ€™s death,Â looked beyond the cross. Without acceptance of this you will never come to a suitable explanation of why these men â€œhadâ€� to be baptized, but that Apollos only needed to be taught better (as recorded in Acts 18).

http://www.christianmonthlystandard.com/index.php/johns-baptism/


----------



## Ronnie T

gordon 2 said:


> No! You got it Pontiac!



Pontiac,  (born c. 1720, on the Maumee River [now in Ohio, U.S.]—died April 20, 1769, near the Mississippi River [at present-day Cahokia, Ill.]), 
a. Ottawa Indian chief who became a great intertribal leader when he organized a combined resistance—known as Pontiac’s War (1763–64)—to British power in the Great Lakes area.


----------



## Artfuldodger

What is a Baptism of repentance?

Does not repentance require a work of the Spirit?

How can a Church member/Disciple receive a Baptism of repentance and not know anything about the Spirit? 

Didn't John explain all this to the people he baptized? Wasn't he the only man with the authority to baptize during this period?


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> What is a Baptism of repentance?
> 
> Does not repentance require a work of the Spirit?
> 
> How can a Church member/Disciple receive a Baptism of repentance and not know anything about the Spirit?
> 
> Didn't John explain all this to the people he baptized? Wasn't he the only man with the authority to baptize during this period?




This ^^^^ sounds like the end of a _Batman_ episode.


----------



## gordon 2

What no more posts after the Joker? Hum.


----------



## Madman

Artfuldodger said:


> I view faith as believing and repentance as conversion. Some say it is the two sides of the same coin. If it is then all would happen simultaneously. When one truly believes in Jesus he will repent. This does take faith. It will all happen at the same time.



There are several ways of looking at these type of things, so would call it "The order of Salvation".

(Predestination) Election  Rom. 8:30;   Eph. 1.11

Effectual Calling  Jn. 3:3-8; Acts 7:51, Rom. 8:28, 11:7, 1Cor. 1:1-2

Regeneration  Ezek. 36:26, Jn. 3:3, Titus 5:5, 1Pe. 1:23

Faith (Repentance)  Ps. 40:4, Acts 3:16, Rom. 10:17, Eph. 2:8-9, Heb. 11:6, 1 Jn. 5:4

Repentance  Lk. 24:46-47, 2 Pe. 3:9, 1 Jn. 1:9

Justification (Adoption)  Rom. 5:1, 8:1-2, 30,33,  1Cor. 6:11

Adoption  Ex. 4:22, Jn. 1:12, Rom. 814-19, Gal. 4:5-7, Eph. 1:5, 1Jn. 3:1

Sanctification Jn. 17:17, Rom. 8:13, 1Cor 1:2 Eph. 2:10, 1Thess. 5:23, 2Thess. 2:13

Perseverance  Mt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9 8:39, 11:19, Phil. 2:13, 1Pe. 1:5

Glorification  Jn. 5:28-29, 2or. 3:18, Phil. 3:20-21


----------



## Madman

hobbs27 said:


> I believe a born again Christian that refuses baptism is a Christian that is living in direct disobedience of God through His word.



"The man who claims to be a Christian, yet refuses the water of baptism, he is of questionable faith".
                                                                    Tertullian


----------



## Artfuldodger

Madman said:


> "The man who claims to be a Christian, yet refuses the water of baptism, he is of questionable faith".
> Tertullian



John baptized with water. Jesus baptized with the Holy Spirit.
Do you see a difference between the two? Difference meaning purpose of the two different baptisms. Difference meaning outcome.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Madman said:


> There are several ways of looking at these type of things, so would call it "The order of Salvation".
> 
> (Predestination) Election  Rom. 8:30;   Eph. 1.11
> 
> Effectual Calling  Jn. 3:3-8; Acts 7:51, Rom. 8:28, 11:7, 1Cor. 1:1-2
> 
> Regeneration  Ezek. 36:26, Jn. 3:3, Titus 5:5, 1Pe. 1:23
> 
> Faith (Repentance)  Ps. 40:4, Acts 3:16, Rom. 10:17, Eph. 2:8-9, Heb. 11:6, 1 Jn. 5:4
> 
> Repentance  Lk. 24:46-47, 2 Pe. 3:9, 1 Jn. 1:9
> 
> Justification (Adoption)  Rom. 5:1, 8:1-2, 30,33,  1Cor. 6:11
> 
> Adoption  Ex. 4:22, Jn. 1:12, Rom. 814-19, Gal. 4:5-7, Eph. 1:5, 1Jn. 3:1
> 
> Sanctification Jn. 17:17, Rom. 8:13, 1Cor 1:2 Eph. 2:10, 1Thess. 5:23, 2Thess. 2:13
> 
> Perseverance  Mt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9 8:39, 11:19, Phil. 2:13, 1Pe. 1:5
> 
> Glorification  Jn. 5:28-29, 2or. 3:18, Phil. 3:20-21



I don't see believing in that order, is it under faith in your list? One believes through faith and then repents? 
Isn't the actual act of believing  repentance? 
I don't see the correct  order in believing and repenting. If one suddenly believes he can't work his way to Heaven and needs Jesus, they would both occur together, believing & repenting. Even if called and regenerated.
God suddenly opens my eyes and I realize Jesus died for my sins. I suddenly realize I can't work my way into Heaven.  That in itself is repentance.
I guess technically believing  happened a split second before repenting.
It's like suddenly I believe Jesus died for my sins, I think i"ll change my mind and believe Jesus died for my sins.


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> John baptized with water. Jesus baptized with the Holy Spirit.
> Do you see a difference between the two? Difference meaning purpose of the two different baptisms. Difference meaning outcome.



And Art, when did/does Jesus baptize with the Holy Spirit? (scripture?)

John with water......
Jesus with Holy Spirit......
..... what did the apostles baptize with?(like Cornelius)?

Did Philip baptize the eunich(in the desert) with water, or with the Holy Spirit? (scripture).

.....And again, whom did Jesus baptize with the Holy Spirit?



I miss you guys but I'm now the campground host at Three River's State Park, Lake Seminole (Florida Side).
Am even allowed to have a Christian gathering for campers every Sunday.  So,,,,, I'm away from civilization most all the time.


----------



## Israel

As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?"
And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.…


----------



## Madman

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't see believing in that order, is it under faith in your list?




Nowhere does the church say these are in that EXACT order, I see not prescription for salvation,  the point is God moves us along a continuum, from our effectual calling to our eventual glorification.


----------



## Israel

"We have fished all night..."
Nevertheless, at your word...


----------



## Artfuldodger

Madman said:


> Nowhere does the church say these are in that EXACT order, I see not prescription for salvation,  the point is God moves us along a continuum, from our effectual calling to our eventual glorification.



There is an order to salvation just not an exact order of the events?
Speaking of Baptism, is it in your list under a different heading.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> And Art, when did/does Jesus baptize with the Holy Spirit? (scripture?)
> 
> John with water......
> Jesus with Holy Spirit......
> ..... what did the apostles baptize with?(like Cornelius)?
> 
> Did Philip baptize the eunich(in the desert) with water, or with the Holy Spirit? (scripture).
> 
> .....And again, whom did Jesus baptize with the Holy Spirit?
> 
> 
> 
> I miss you guys but I'm now the campground host at Three River's State Park, Lake Seminole (Florida Side).
> Am even allowed to have a Christian gathering for campers every Sunday.  So,,,,, I'm away from civilization most all the time.



I grew up in a camping family. We used to always find an old country Church in my youth to attend, usually way back in the mountains of North Georgia. Always had good fellowship. Later we joined a camping club. My Dad was the Chaplain and we started having services in the campground. 
Hope you are having a good time!


----------



## Madman

Artfuldodger said:


> Isn't the actual act of believing  repentance?


No.



Artfuldodger said:


> I don't see the correct  order in believing and repenting.




Why would someone who believes themselves good see the need for a savior?
"On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."



Artfuldodger said:


> God suddenly opens my eyes and I realize........



You don't realize Jesus died for you, all you know is that you have a problem.

"Peter's words pierced their hearts," Acts 2:37



Artfuldodger said:


> I suddenly realize I can't work my way into Heaven.  That in itself is repentance.



It was not until they were convicted that they saw the need. When they were convicted then the response was. 

 "(they)said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"



Artfuldodger said:


> I guess technically believing  happened a split second before repenting.



Believing in what.  I would argue you first must see the need for a savior and that comes by  the conviction of the Holy Spirit.



Artfuldodger said:


> It's like suddenly I believe Jesus died for my sins, I think i"ll change my mind and believe Jesus died for my sins.



How are you going to believe in Jesus?

"How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?"  Acts 10:14

The Gospel is the good news, but why would anyone need good news unless they first were convicted about the bad news.  

Read the posts of the agnostics, they believe themselves to be good people,  they don't need a doctor only those of us who are "sick" with sin need a savior.


----------



## Madman

Artfuldodger said:


> There is an order to salvation just not an exact order of the events?
> Speaking of Baptism, is it in your list under a different heading.



Baptism is a sacrament, "an outward & visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace".

Just as the Jews were circumcised the Christian is Baptized.


----------



## Madman

Artfuldodger said:


> There is an order to salvation just not an exact order of the events?
> Speaking of Baptism, is it in your list under a different heading.



Where does the Scripture teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Madman said:


> Where does the Scripture teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?



You had a pretty long list in your Order of Salvation," I just wondered if Baptism fit in there some place. Maybe not water babtism but a baptism by the Holy Spirit for the repentance of our sins.


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## Madman

Artfuldodger said:


> You had a pretty long list in your Order of Salvation,"



Not my list,  you can give credit to the church for that one.

Do think baptism needs to be on the list?


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## Madman

14 After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. 15 “The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”

We are called to Believe, repent, confess, follow, etc.


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## Artfuldodger

Maybe we have too many words that mean the same thing or at least they happen at the same time;
Regenerate, convert, believe, & repent all happen after God's call. It's kinda hard to do or receive one without the others.
Personally I don't believe water baptism is necessary.
We can discuss that ideal again but my main question was the difference between the purposes or reasons of John's and Jesus' Baptisms or if there was a difference?


----------



## Madman

Artfuldodger said:


> my main question was the difference between the purposes or reasons of John's and Jesus' Baptisms or if there was a difference?



John's baptism was a mark.

I am not sure about Jesus Baptizing with water, there are some arguable passages saying that he did, but if he did I believe it was different than John's.

The Holy Spirit Baptism is an indwelling.


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## Ronnie T

Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.


Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.’


Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?


For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.


Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

I'm always amazed when seemingly conscientious Christians(I assume) speak of a command of Jesus, and a teaching of His apostles, as though it had no meaning and made no difference.
Why would a "godly" Christian even speak of one not being commanded and required to submit to baptism???

Why?  What gets into one's brain to cause them to spend so much time defending a person's right to not submit to the will of ones own savior.

I know a lady who has two daughters who are in their 20's.  Neither of these daughters have ever been baptized, and they both refuse, simply because a "pastor" told everyone in his church that they don't have to be baptized.

Horrible.  Horrible.  Sinful.  

Jesus Christ commanded it be accomplished as part of one coming to Him.

No servant of Christ will ever dismiss it.


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## Israel

suffer it to be so now for it behooves us to fulfill all righteousness...

how much is the identity? to what are we ourselves behooved to show we are all, in the truth, and in truth, made like the Master? And all men? the only one never needing to show submission...did.
The only one never needing to be saved from death, prayed he might be...and was heard.
We can be no humbler than he, nor ever greater, but we may be found to be called brothers. Unashamed.
Only when we do all that is considered of us, unnecessary, may we find the one necessary thing.


----------



## gtparts

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe we have too many words that mean the same thing or at least they happen at the same time;
> Regenerate, convert, believe, & repent all happen after God's call. It's kinda hard to do or receive one without the others.
> Personally I don't believe water baptism is necessary.
> We can discuss that ideal again but my main question was the difference between the purposes or reasons of John's and Jesus' Baptisms or if there was a difference?



Do some elementary research.... J, the B answered that question. His baptism was of water, making a public testament to ones repentance of sin and submission to God. Jesus compliance to water baptism was one of submission, as He had no sin, which required no repentance.

As for the act of water baptism, well, God has surely found genuine repentance and submission of the heart, soul, and mind through Jesus to be sufficient, independent of getting wet from head to toe. 

Nevertheless, in as much as Jesus demonstrated and directed baptism, when possible, one would do well to do the same. 

 (Just remember, salvation is only by the grace of God and cannot be earned by anything we do in and of ourselves.)

Now, baptism by the Holy Spirit looks significantly different. The two should not be confused.


----------



## Ronnie T

gtparts said:


> Do some elementary research.... J, the B answered that question. His baptism was of water, making a public testament to ones repentance of sin and submission to God. Jesus compliance to water baptism was one of submission, as He had no sin, which required no repentance.
> 
> As for the act of water baptism, well, God has surely found genuine repentance and submission of the heart, soul, and mind through Jesus to be sufficient, independent of getting wet from head to toe.
> 
> Nevertheless, in as much as Jesus demonstrated and directed baptism, when possible, one would do well to do the same.
> 
> (Just remember, salvation is only by the grace of God and cannot be earned by anything we do in and of ourselves.)
> 
> Now, baptism by the Holy Spirit looks significantly different. The two should not be confused.



Brother, no where in the Gospel does anyone proclaim what you have proclaimed....... "in as much as Jesus demonstrated and directed baptism, when possible, one would do well to do the same.,

Jesus commanded that His apostles "go into the world and preach the Gospel and those who believe and are baptized will be saved."

There is nothing in Jesus' teachings that excuse a person from His command......... matter of fact, the opposite:  "if you love Me, you will do as I say."
The implication:  "If what I say isn't important to you or your teachings, you aren't loving Me."


----------



## Ronnie T

God’s people should be baptized because God commanded it, not because some church requires it. 
John R. Rice

Baptism separates the tire kickers from the car buyers. 
Max Lucado


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## Ronnie T

“We ought to regard the sacrament of baptism with reverence. An ordinance of which the Lord Jesus Himself partook, is not to be lightly esteemed. An ordinance to which the great Head of the Church submitted, ought to be ever honorable in the eyes of professing Christians.” J.C. Ryle


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## Israel

Before we know what is being said, we should first make sure that what is not said, is not being said?

Some may hear "water baptism is, in my response, unnecessary".
Another may not hear what is not being said, and understand that _was_ not said...and allow for a grace to be revealed for what might not be possible...with man.
I once watched an elderly woman, bed bound, shortly before her last few gasps would issue forth from her mouth in bubbles and froth. She came to peace in her confession, came to peace in her word of Christ, came to peace in the savior being preached to her.

But, since my appearing is now left in flesh for this time, and hers accomplished, I dare not make any claim as to anything...except mercy, and grace. Even for the bound.


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## gemcgrew

I can't imagine not having been baptized. It is almost as if I didn't even have a choice in the matter.


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## Israel

gemcgrew said:


> I can't imagine not having been baptized. It is almost as if I didn't even have a choice in the matter.


yeah.
It became like the only thing seen.


----------



## Ronnie T

Israel said:


> Before we know what is being said, we should first make sure that what is not said, is not being said?
> 
> Some may hear "water baptism is, in my response, unnecessary".
> Another may not hear what is not being said, and understand that _was_ not said...and allow for a grace to be revealed for what might not be possible...with man.I once watched an elderly woman, bed bound, shortly before her last few gasps would issue forth from her mouth in bubbles and froth. She came to peace in her confession, came to peace in her word of Christ, came to peace in the savior being preached to her.
> 
> But, since my appearing is now left in flesh for this time, and hers accomplished, I dare not make any claim as to anything...except mercy, and grace. Even for the bound.



I wholly agree brother.  But God's grace belongs only to God.  I am not the author of it or the administrator of it.... so I am only left with what God has left for me.

Does God have the power to save whomever He wishes?  Yep.
Does God have the grace to save whomever He wishes?  Yep.
Does God have the authority to save one who never repented?  Again, yep.

Does that authorize me (or anyone) to ever minimize an obvious teaching of Christ.

I believe God can grant death-bed salvation.
I've also read Jesus' teachings concerning baptism.
(But what of that pastor who told the new believer "you don't actually have to be baptized, if you don't want to"?......................... I believe that pastor to have committed a sin at that moment.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gtparts said:


> Do some elementary research.... J, the B answered that question. His baptism was of water, making a public testament to ones repentance of sin and submission to God. Jesus compliance to water baptism was one of submission, as He had no sin, which required no repentance.
> 
> As for the act of water baptism, well, God has surely found genuine repentance and submission of the heart, soul, and mind through Jesus to be sufficient, independent of getting wet from head to toe.
> 
> Nevertheless, in as much as Jesus demonstrated and directed baptism, when possible, one would do well to do the same.
> 
> (Just remember, salvation is only by the grace of God and cannot be earned by anything we do in and of ourselves.)
> 
> Now, baptism by the Holy Spirit looks significantly different. The two should not be confused.



I guess I wasn't clear when I referred to Jesus' baptism. I  wasn't talking of his actual water baptism but the one Jesus commanded. The one Jesus instructed his Diciples to perform on others. The one Peter talked about when he proclaimed:
  “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins."

I see repentance in both thus my confusion to if they were different. I'm am doing elementary research.


----------



## barryl

*Johns Baptism*



Artfuldodger said:


> Studying about John baptising for repentance has me wondering what exactly that means. Other questions such as Jesus forgiving people before he died came up. Did John's baptisms offer salvation/ Did jesus forgiving offer salvation?
> Does anyone agree with this:
> 
> Repentance (Gk. metanoia) literally means “to change the mind.”
> 
> It usually refers to changing the mind regarding your former beliefs and behaviors, and turning to a new way of believing and behaving. This change, of course, is exactly what John’s baptism represented for the Jewish people. When they came to be baptized by John in the Jordan, they were turning away from the corrupt forms of religious Judaism, and turning to a new way of living according to the loving and forgiving ways of God. In this way, repentance and baptism have nothing to do with receiving eternal life, or even receiving the forgiveness of sins. Both are just a way of turning away from the past and turning toward a new life for the future.
> 
> The term “remission” (Gk. aphesis) does not refer to “forgiveness” but is closer to “liberty” or “freedom” (cf. Luke 3:3; 4:18-19; 25:47).
> 
> Again, it is crucial to understand how Jewish people would have understood this term. At this time, the Jewish people were under the occupation of the Roman Empire. Yet many Jewish people understood that while Rome was their physical enemy, their greater enemy was their own sin and rebellion as a nation. In fact, the Jewish people believed that it was because of their sin and rebellion as a nation that God had allowed the Roman Empire to occupy and control Israel.
> 
> This is why the Jewish religious leaders of that time became so focused on properly keeping the Law of Moses. It was thought that if the nation could perfectly keep the law, then God would finally deliver Israel from the Romans and restore Israel to her rightful place among the nations.
> 
> So in other words, to be delivered from sin was to be delivered from the Romans, and vice versa.
> 
> http://www.tillhecomes.org/baptism-of-repentance-forgiveness-of-sins/


An answer to your question John baptizing for repentance. John 1:31 KJV 1611 AV The water baptism to manifest The Lord Jesus Christ to Israel. 2 Tim. 2:15 "Rightly dividing the word of truth".


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## hobbs27

barryl said:


> An answer to your question John baptizing for repentance. John 1:31 KJV 1611 AV The water baptism to manifest The Lord Jesus Christ to Israel. 2 Tim. 2:15 "Rightly dividing the word of truth".



Barry, 
      since through Water Baptism Jesus was manifested to Israel, is it your opinion that water baptism is no longer necessary?


----------



## barryl

hobbs27 said:


> Barry,
> since through Water Baptism Jesus was manifested to Israel, is it your opinion that water baptism is no longer necessary?


As far as essential for Salvation(Baptismal Regeneration)NO!  Eph. 4:5-6 KJV AV(Spirit Baptism) Believers Baptism, because, you and me have been saved. 1 Peter 3:21 "a like figure" A figure is not a real thing.


----------



## hobbs27

barryl said:


> As far as essential for Salvation(Baptismal Regeneration)NO!  Eph. 4:5-6 KJV AV(Spirit Baptism) Believers Baptism, because, you and me have been saved. 1 Peter 3:21 "a like figure" A figure is not a real thing.



But it was never for salvation was it?

I wonder then, do you think it should be permissible for a saved person to take of communion if they have disobeyed the commandment of believers baptism?


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## barryl

hobbs27 said:


> I wonder then, do you think it should be permissible for a saved person to take of communion if they have disobeyed the commandment of believers baptism?


Commandment?(tradition,sacrament) You still in the A-mill camp, right? Since ya'll believe Jesus came back in 70 A.D. why worry one way or the other? 1 Cor. 11:26 KJV AV The Lord's Supper is to show His death "till" he comes.


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## hobbs27

barryl said:


> Commandment?(tradition,sacrament) You still in the A-mill camp, right? Since ya'll believe Jesus came back in 70 A.D. why worry one way or the other? 1 Cor. 11:26 KJV AV The Lord's Supper is to show His death "till" he comes.



Yes , I believe baptism is a commandment to Christians and no Im not in the Amillenial camp any longer. I left that for partial preterism and most would consider me a full preterist now which Im not ashamed of.
 A-mill are futurist and believe in a future coming. I dont, and it is a good question as to whether I should partake in communion since He has returned. I do, and feel I should as a sacrament to the new covenant. The only Full preterist church I know of still partakes in communion.

 Now, do you think it should be permitted for a saved person that has not been baptized to take communion?


----------



## barryl

hobbs27 said:


> Yes , I believe baptism is a commandment to Christians and no Im not in the Amillenial camp any longer. I left that for partial preterism and most would consider me a full preterist now which Im not ashamed of.
> A-mill are futurist and believe in a future coming. I dont, and it is a good question as to whether I should partake in communion since He has returned. I do, and feel I should as a sacrament to the new covenant. The only Full preterist church I know of still partakes in communion.
> 
> Now, do you think it should be permitted for a saved person that has not been baptized to take communion?


Why in the world are you asking a "Bible Believer", any way?


----------



## hobbs27

barryl said:


> Why in the world are you asking a "Bible Believer", any way?



 I bet if we compare beliefs I'm more consistent with scripture, but that's neither here nor there. I'm just interested in your opinion but if you rather not answer I understand.


----------



## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> Now, do you think it should be permitted for a saved person that has not been baptized to take communion?


"But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup." (1 Corinthians 11:28)


----------



## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> A-mill are futurist and believe in a future coming. I dont, and it is a good question as to whether I should partake in communion since He has returned. I do, and feel I should as a sacrament to the new covenant. The only Full preterist church I know of still partakes in communion.


This is a definite inconsistency.


----------



## hobbs27

gemcgrew said:


> This is a definite inconsistency.



Not really. I partake, some preterist dont. The reason I do is because I dont think "until" necessarily means a termination. I believe all of Revelation is fulfilled, yet some of it is continuing , it is the last book, and sets into place the new covenant that lasts forever, so I believe Christ still is in the midst of the church and still stands at the door and knocks.

 Example: Christ was to reign "until" He put all His enemies under His feet and "until" cannot mean a termination for Christ reigns forever.


----------



## Israel

The Lord said to Moses and Aaron in Egypt,  “This month is to be for you the first month, the first month of your year. Tell the whole community of Israel that on the tenth day of this month each man is to take a lamb[a] _for his family_, one for each household.

And He said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; for I say to you, I shall never again eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God."…

 "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me."

So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. If anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, so that you will not come together for judgment.


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## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> Not really. I partake, some preterist dont. The reason I do is because I dont think "until" necessarily means a termination. I believe all of Revelation is fulfilled, yet some of it is continuing , it is the last book, and sets into place the new covenant that lasts forever, so I believe Christ still is in the midst of the church and still stands at the door and knocks.
> 
> Example: Christ was to reign "until" He put all His enemies under His feet and "until" cannot mean a termination for Christ reigns forever.



"Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power." Cor 15 -24

Just curious, what do preterist have faith in? By faith I mean, Hebrews  11-1" Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." I don't mean faith that there is a god.

Also what is the work of faith by a preterist? What does it do? By work of faith I mean this: Thes. 1-3 "Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;"????


----------



## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> "Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power." Cor 15 -24
> 
> Just curious, what do preterist have faith in? By faith I mean, Hebrews  11-1" Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." I don't mean faith that there is a god.
> 
> Also what is the work of faith by a preterist? What does it do? By work of faith I mean this: Thes. 1-3 "Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;"????




 Thanks for the question. I have worked at getting away from this (preterist) discussion as much as I possibly can because I realize it ruffles the feathers of some that do not want to approach scripture with an open mind. The discussion of eschatology and our Lord is my passion so when asked about it, you can believe you will get an answer. 

 The preterist hope is in the Gospel . Even the hope written of in the epistles of Christ' soon return was without power if not for the cross, death, and ressurection. His return was promised to them " within their generation" straight from the lips of our Lord. Just as Simeon was told he would see Him before he tasted death, so were they. Simeon held Him, I believe they beheld Him.

_The gospel is the perfect life , substitutionary death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, which is the power of God unto salvation for all who believe._
 [1Cor 15:1-11, Romans 1:16, Ephesians 1:13-14, Colossians 1:22-23]

^^ In this lies the foundation of our hope. Everything else , however good and important, is secondary. The bible teaches that our hope in heaven rests fundamentally on Christ's resurrection, but also on the general resurrection, which we believe are both facts of history.

These works in italics are from Charles Meek in his book Christian Hope through Fulfilled Prophecy. An awesome read. _

solidified by the preterist view , believers may have confidence that when we die we will immediately begin eternity in heaven with Jesus (Psalm 23:6; 33:13; 49: 14-15; 103:4, Daniel 12:1-2; Matthew 6:9; 22:30; Mark 16:19; Luke 6:23; John 3:16; 14:1-6; 17:24: 1 Corinthians 2:9,13:12; 15:18-20; 2 Corinthians 5 : 1-10; Ephesians 1:20;  2:6; Phillipians 1:22-23; 3:20-21; Colossians 1:5; 1 Thessalonians 5:8-11; Titus 1:2; 3:7; Hebrews 6:20; 9:15-24; 11:16; 1Peter 1:3-9; Revelation 5:6; 11:12; 14:1-13)

The Christians confidence rests primarily in Christ's finished work on the cross. But the bible also teaches that our hope also rests in Christ's Parousia- His effectual divine presence in AD 70 in fulfillment of all the eschatological promises. Christians seem to have inseperably tied their hope to a future second coming. For the very earliest Christians, it was rightly described by the NT writers as the "blessed hope": Titus 2:13; 1Peter 1:13; 1 John 3: 2-3

 But our hope for the future does not rest on yet another coming of Christ, but rather in Christ's completed first-century accomplishments! The view which expects a future return of Christ to save the world (again) steeply discounts , and wrongly makes contingent, what Christ has already done for us._

 We have eternal life for Christ offers it. We have a prepared place for Christ has made it for us. We have a personal relationship and guidance through this temporary life in which through obedience we are blessed ...So, what else is there for Christ to do? What else should anyone expect of Him, He's already laid down His life?


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## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> Thanks for the question. I have worked at getting away from this (preterist) discussion as much as I possibly can because I realize it ruffles the feathers of some that do not want to approach scripture with an open mind. The discussion of eschatology and our Lord is my passion so when asked about it, you can believe you will get an answer.
> 
> The preterist hope is in the Gospel . Even the hope written of in the epistles of Christ' soon return was without power if not for the cross, death, and resurrection. His return was promised to them " within their generation" straight from the lips of our Lord. Just as Simeon was told he would see Him before he tasted death, so where they. Simeon held Him, I believe they beheld Him.
> 
> _The gospel is the perfect life , substitutionary death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, which is the power of God unto salvation for all who believe._
> [1Cor 15:1-11, Romans 1:16, Ephesians 1:13-14, Colossians 1:22-23]
> 
> ^^ In this lies the foundation of our hope. Everything else , however good and important, is secondary. The bible teaches that our hope in heaven rests fundamentally on Christ's resurrection, but also on the general resurrection, which we believe are both facts of history.
> 
> These works in italics are from Charles Meek in his book Christian Hope through Fulfilled Prophecy. An awesome read. _
> 
> solidified by the preterist view , believers may have confidence that when we die we will immediately begin eternity in heaven with Jesus (Psalm 23:6; 33:13; 49: 14-15; 103:4, Daniel 12:1-2; Matthew 6:9; 22:30; Mark 16:19; Luke 6:23; John 3:16; 14:1-6; 17:24: 1 Corinthians 2:9,13:12; 15:18-20; 2 Corinthians 5 : 1-10; Ephesians 1:20;  2:6; Phillipians 1:22-23; 3:20-21; Colossians 1:5; 1 Thessalonians 5:8-11; Titus 1:2; 3:7; Hebrews 6:20; 9:15-24; 11:16; 1Peter 1:3-9; Revelation 5:6; 11:12; 14:1-13)
> 
> The Christians confidence rests primarily in Christ's finished work on the cross. But the bible also teaches that our hope also rests in Christ's Parousia- His effectual divine presence in AD 70 in fulfillment of all the eschatological promises. Christians seem to have inseperably tied their hope to a future second coming. For the very earliest Christians, it was rightly described by the NT writers as the "blessed hope": Titus 2:13; 1Peter 1:13; 1 John 3: 2-3
> 
> But our hope for the future does not rest on yet another coming of Christ, but rather in Christ's completed first-century accomplishments! The view which expects a future return of Christ to save the world (again) steeply discounts , and wrongly makes contingent, what Christ has already done for us._
> 
> We have eternal life for Christ offers it. We have a prepared place for Christ has made it for us. We have a personal relationship and guidance through this temporary life in which through obedience we are blessed ...So, what else is there for Christ to do? What else should anyone expext of Him, He's already laid down His life?



So what do you make of Christ handing the kingdom to his Father? Has all dominion, power and authority in you other than our Savior's ( Jesus) been destroyed by Jesus' death sacrifice on the cross?

I'm really reading your responses. So quickly, your hope is that following your death you will be in heaven with Jesus forever?


----------



## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> So what do you make of Christ handing the kingdom to his Father? Has all dominion, power and authority in you other than our Savior's ( Jesus) been destroyed by Jesus' death sacrifice on the cross?



1Corinthians 15:24

 Then comes the end, ( AD70 and the destruction of the temple) when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule{ law} and all authority and power{ high priests and scribes} 

 This is reflective of the final transition from the old covenant to the new. From a physical kingdom centered around Jerusalem to a spiritual kingdom centered around whosoever will. When the end of the old covenant came in AD70 the new had already been established at the cross, for forty years ad30-ad70 Israel wondered between two covenants, but not until Christ returned and destroyed the temple and the heirarchy of the high priest was the old finished.

 His final victory was over death which was the emptying of hades. In the old covenant there was no salvation, no victory over death so all people good and evil went to a holding place known as hades...awaiting Christ! 

 Their hope was his future coming to resurrect them from hades also known as death or the grave. Now Christ has returned and won victory over death he had the keys to death and hades and emptyed it with a general resurrection at the last day, in which Martha spoke of knowing her brother Lazurus would have been raised.

1Corinthians 15:19 If in "this life" only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.

 I believe this verse sets the tone and is great witness against a future corporate resurrection, for it is not a resurrection in this life to the next---but it is the next life in which our hope is placed.




gordon 2 said:


> I'm really reading your responses. So quickly, your hope is that following your death you will be in heaven with Jesus forever?



 Yes! I will be transformed in the twinkling of an eye. We're almost all preterist at funerals, funny, no one ever says, " I know he/she is sitting in the grave awaiting Christ return when we all go to heaven at once", but they say unconsciously, " I know he/she is in a better place and is in heaven with Jesus looking down on us"  I always have to smirk a little to myself when I hear the most religous of the dispensationalist say these things.


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## hobbs27

You may also enjoy this....
http://donkpreston.com/responding-to-the-critics-christian-what-say-ye/


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## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> 1Corinthians 15:24
> 
> Then comes the end, ( AD70 and the destruction of the temple) when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule{ law} and all authority and power{ high priests and scribes}
> 
> This is reflective of the final transition from the old covenant to the new. From a physical kingdom centered around Jerusalem to a spiritual kingdom centered around whosoever will. When the end of the old covenant came in AD70 the new had already been established at the cross, for forty years ad30-ad70 Israel wondered between two covenants, but not until Christ returned and destroyed the temple and the heirarchy of the high priest was the old finished.
> 
> His final victory was over death which was the emptying of hades. In the old covenant there was no salvation, no victory over death so all people good and evil went to a holding place known as hades...awaiting Christ!
> 
> Their hope was his future coming to resurrect them from hades also known as death or the grave. Now Christ has returned and won victory over death he had the keys to death and hades and emptyed it with a general resurrection at the last day, in which Martha spoke of knowing her brother Lazurus would have been raised.
> 
> 1Corinthians 15:19 If in "this life" only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
> 
> I believe this verse sets the tone and is great witness against a future corporate resurrection, for it is not a resurrection in this life to the next---but it is the next life in which our hope is placed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes! I will be transformed in the twinkling of an eye. We're almost all preterist at funerals, funny, no one ever says, " I know he/she is sitting in the grave awaiting Christ return when we all go to heaven at once", but they say unconsciously, " I know he/she is in a better place and is in heaven with Jesus looking down on us"  I always have to smirk a little to myself when I hear the most religous of the dispensationalist say these things.



OK thanks.  I will study. I'm hoping to put together some wholesome assimilation or "loving understanding" of John MacCarter's views on RCs, Jacob Prash's, and other good people's hope, such as yours.
 Thanks again.


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## barryl

hobbs27 said:


> I bet if we compare beliefs I'm more consistent with scripture, but that's neither here nor there. I'm just interested in your opinion but if you rather not answer I understand.


KJV 1611 AV My final authority!!


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## hobbs27

barryl said:


> KJV 1611 AV My final authority!!



Great!


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## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> KJV 1611 AV My final authority!!



I'm glad you weren't born before 1611.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm glad you weren't born before 1611.



That's a very valid point. My understanding of history is that for a very long time the scriptures were not allowed to be read by lay members. You were at the mercy of the church's interpretation.


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## barryl

Which Church? In an earlier post you asked my opinion. 1 Cor. 14:33 KJV AV


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## gtparts

I have problems with placing my faith in the hands of the less-than-scholarly King James of England, whose scholars were far removed from the original Ancient Hebrew, Aramaic , and Greek than the more recent scholarly theologians, having more knowledge based on the available texts of the 21st century. That we have older and more complete manuscripts today can hardly be refuted. Our understanding of the words used, the idiomatic phraseology, and contextual significance is far more accurate today.

The particular personal biases of King James, aside, the 1611 is, in my opinion, a more beautiful, poetic offering than most others. The work itself, is moderately close in many ways to the original manuscripts and in others, well, not so much. 

All that, to say this: 

Personal study without a broad view leaves us handicapped in understanding God's Word. Likewise, personal study with a broad view can also handicap us to the truth. Only with the proper influence of the Holy Spirit can God's truth be revealed, regardless of translation, transliteration, or diligent paraphrasing.

I read and use a number of Bibles, selected for comparison and to help with clarity. The KJV is just one of them (more specifically, a revision of the 1611, which was written in Old English and much more difficult to understand).

And, Ronnie, for the record, I never said nor implied that the Great Commission was just a "good suggestion" (it is binding on true followers of Christ to proceed as He instructed when possible); only that we have examples where water baptism was not available to a convert. Whether you believe they were/are excluded from heaven or included based on the grace of God is something you need to explain.


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## barryl

gtparts said:


> I have problems with placing my faith in the hands of the less-than-scholarly King James of England, whose scholars were far removed from the original Ancient Hebrew, Aramaic , and Greek than the more recent scholarly theologians, having more knowledge based on the available texts of the 21st century. That we have older and more complete manuscripts today can hardly be refuted. Our understanding of the words used, the idiomatic phraseology, and contextual significance is far more accurate today.
> 
> The particular personal biases of King James, aside, the 1611 is, in my opinion, a more beautiful, poetic offering than most others. The work itself, is moderately close in many ways to the original manuscripts and in others, well, not so much.
> 
> All that, to say this:
> 
> Personal study without a broad view leaves us handicapped in understanding God's Word. Likewise, personal study with a broad view can also handicap us to the truth. Only with the proper influence of the Holy Spirit can God's truth be revealed, regardless of translation, transliteration, or diligent paraphrasing.
> 
> I read and use a number of Bibles, selected for comparison and to help with clarity. The KJV is just one of them (more specifically, a revision of the 1611, which was written in Old English and much more difficult to understand).
> 
> And, Ronnie, for the record, I never said nor implied that the Great Commission was just a "good suggestion" (it is binding on true followers of Christ to proceed as He instructed when possible); only that we have examples where water baptism was not available to a convert. Whether you believe they were/are excluded from heaven or included based on the grace of God is something you need to explain.


If part of this is for me we live in a free country and can believe whatever we want to. I believe God can and has preserved His word (KJV 1611 AV) in English and I have the very words of God in my hands to read and study.


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## gemcgrew

gtparts said:


> I read and use a number of Bibles, selected for comparison and to help with clarity. The KJV is just one of them (more specifically, a revision of the 1611, which was written in Old English and much more difficult to understand).


"While we looke not at the things which are seene, but at þe things which are not seene: for the things which are seene, are temporall, but the things which are not seene, are eternall."


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## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> A-mill are futurist and believe in a future coming.


A-mill are historicist for the most part. Not all believe in a future coming.


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