# Square it up?



## PhatboyElmo (Nov 16, 2020)

What is the best way to level or square up the scope crosshairs with a rifle?


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## kmckinnie (Nov 16, 2020)

I’ve heard of folks using a torpedo level on the rings when the top is not on. Top ring. In a vise. Then place scope in it. Tighten up til snug but still can twist it. Set to length from eye relief. Then I’ve heard tale take a plumb bob and hand in front of it. Aline the vertical hair with the string. Then tighten screws rest of the way. 
Or u can do like me. Just look thru it and try to center it up on barrel !??


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## kmckinnie (Nov 16, 2020)

I’m sure they have gadgets.


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## treemanjohn (Nov 16, 2020)

Just remember to make sure your rifle is plumb before you level the scope


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## rosewood (Nov 17, 2020)

I have tried the levels for years, seems sometimes it works, sometimes not.  I am starting to think that the crosshairs are not always square with the top of the scope.  I have a level that attaches to the scope base, however I also think maybe the scope base isn't always square with the action.  I usually end up adjusting it by eye, then again at the range because for some reason, it looks different at the range than at home.  I usually look for a flat spot on the receiver (either vertical or horizontal) to stick a level to get the action plumb to start with.  Some guns do not have a reliable flat spot you can work off of though.

I did put me a string with nut on a tree in backyard about 25 yards away.  In theory, if you line the crosshairs up with the string and the string bisects the barrel, then it is squared up.  This is really what you want and if you are bisecting the barrel, all else doesn't matter.  But that still depends on your calibrated eye.

There is a colliminator gadget which some people swear by.  I bought one, but it doesn't seem very precise to me.  I think it works off the concept of bi-secting the barrel and aligning with the scope crosshairs.

Rosewood


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## killerv (Nov 17, 2020)

if you know the gun is level, just put a small level on top of the turret cap. Your rings also probably have a split in them, either horizontal or vertical, can line whatever crosshair up with the split. I can level one all day long, but when I shoulder a rifle, its always canted. Must be because of these big ol chest and shoulder muscles. Actually, I know big time loader range shooter that never uses a level, he just does it by eye when he shoulders a rifle, then tightens the scope down.  I've seen him shoot 3in groups at over 600 yards and takes deer regularly at over 400-500. Works for him.


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## rosewood (Nov 17, 2020)

killerv said:


> if you know the gun is level, just put a small level on top of the turret cap.


This makes the assumption the top cap is square with the crosshairs..


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## Clemson (Nov 17, 2020)

Use your Mark I calibrated eyeball.  Hold the rifle in a standing position.  Twist the scope in its rings until the vertical crosshair bisects the bolt raceway.  If it looks OK to your eye, it is plenty good enough to hunt with.  The key here is repeatability.


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## killerv (Nov 17, 2020)

rosewood said:


> This makes the assumption the top cap is square with the crosshairs..



One may suggest you spend a little more than 50 bucks for a scope.


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## Robust Redhorse (Nov 17, 2020)

Looks like they would start making rings with a tiny mark on top to be used with scopes with a tiny mark on top.  It sure would make leveling scopes much easier.


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## Buckstop (Nov 17, 2020)

Wheeler makes a kit that works pretty well. Has a bubble level that sets across one of the lower rings with top ring removed. You use it too set another bubble level that clamps on the barrel and adjusts to match the first.  Then the first level gets set on top the scope elevation turret. Rotate the scope to match the clamped on barrel level and torque it down to spec.

I found this to be better than the ones where the first bubble level sits in the bolt raceway. I have a couple rifles that the bolt raceways obviously weren't level (Savage).


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## nmurph (Nov 17, 2020)

I set my gun in the cradle and lay a 6ft level across the pic rail. I put it on the table and on my shop about 60 yards away, I put a piece of painter's tape vertical on the side. I line the reticle up vertically with the tape and put the caps on. 

If the reticle doesn't bisect the bore the gun will become less accurate the further out you shoot. <200yards probably doesn't matter...stretch it out and it becomes more critical.


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## rosewood (Nov 18, 2020)

Robust Redhorse said:


> Looks like they would start making rings with a tiny mark on top to be used with scopes with a tiny mark on top.  It sure would make leveling scopes much easier.


  that is what I said.  They could put a flat spot on base and rings, but then everything would have to be square from factory


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## rosewood (Nov 18, 2020)

killerv said:


> One may suggest you spend a little more than 50 bucks for a scope.


I have steiner, leupolds and Nikons.


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## bighonkinjeep (Nov 18, 2020)

Hang a string with a weight (plumb bob).
Make sure the rifle is plumb and set the vertical crosshair to the string.
Not a gadget on the market any easier, more accurate or cheaper.

P.S. I've bought, and tried, a whole bunch of gadgets over the years and found them to be an excersise in frustration more effective in emptying pockets than aligning cross hairs, all I ever needed in the first place was a string and a weight just like granddaddy used.


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## Jester896 (Nov 20, 2020)

I have a level for the race and one for the turret.


You have to start with the premises nothing is really square to begin with...you are just correcting for what you have.  I put a level on top of the rail when I mounted it and it wasn't square to the races...I bedded it to get it closer..closer is the key...sometimes you can get it square.  I set the scope in the rings and adjust the eye relief.  Always checking to see the race level is correct.  I also have an orange para cord with a nut for a plumb bob for alignment checking.  I rotate the scope with the ring caps slightly loose and a Starrett level on top of the uncapped turret.  I make sure the scope turret is level with the race level....then I check with the plumb bob for a verdict to make sure really any holds are going to be as vertical as they need to be....and tighten the caps always checking level and torque it to the proper specs for what I have with an inch # torque wrench.

If it was a long range rifle I was dialing I would also check tracking of the scope and keep doing this until it was correct...I might not do it for a rile that was primarily used under 200 yards


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## Darkhorse (Nov 21, 2020)

I use the "nut on a string" method and get the crosshairs bisected. Really I use a 1 pound fishing weight instead of a nut.
Now leveling the rifle is another thing altogether. Might be simple. Might not. But still it's neccessary.


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## CaptKeith (Nov 23, 2020)

Clemson said:


> Use your Mark I calibrated eyeball.  Hold the rifle in a standing position.  Twist the scope in its rings until the vertical crosshair bisects the bolt raceway.  If it looks OK to your eye, it is plenty good enough to hunt with.  The key here is repeatability.


I think Clemson is basically right.  It is important that the scope is vertical to how you hold it, not to the gun.  Remember that the barrel is circular, so if you are able to hold your reticle vertically all the time you will be repeatable. This is not true with a bow—it is not being released from a circular system. As a further consideration of my argument, you can even mount your scope to the side of the gun (check it out).


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## Jester896 (Nov 23, 2020)

I have always found scopes with reticles that look like.. +... are very easy to adjust.
scopes that are... x ...just don't seem to adjust well for me because you get a little left or right with the up you needed.  After 6 boxes of bullets (at today's prices) you can make it hit where you want...then its good enough to hunt with


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## nmurph (Nov 27, 2020)

CaptKeith said:


> I think Clemson is basically right.  It is important that the scope is vertical to how you hold it, not to the gun.  Remember that the barrel is circular, so if you are able to hold your reticle vertically all the time you will be repeatable. This is not true with a bow—it is not being released from a circular system. As a further consideration of my argument, you can even mount your scope to the side of the gun (check it out).



Sorry, but this is not correct...well, kind of. It's true for the exact center of the reticle assuming that's where you zeroed to. But as soon as you move off that point, the POI will shift relative to the axis of the bore. Dial the scope up or down, or use the BDC marks and your shots will not hit where they should. It may or may not matter depending largely on the distance you are shooting and how important accucracy is to you. In the deer woods at 100yds, you're probably  not going to notice it. Stretch that out to 600yds and it might result in a miss or wounded animal.


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## Jester896 (Nov 27, 2020)

nmurph said:


> Stretch that out to 600yds and it might result in a miss or wounded animal.



I'm not so sure it wouldn't at 3 or 400


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## CaptKeith (Nov 27, 2020)

nmurph said:


> Sorry, but this is not correct...well, kind of. It's true for the exact center of the reticle assuming that's where you zeroed to. But as soon as you move off that point, the POI will shift relative to the axis of the bore. Dial the scope up or down, or use the BDC marks and your shots will not hit where they should. It may or may not matter depending largely on the distance you are shooting and how important accucracy is to you. In the deer woods at 100yds, you're probably  not going to notice it. Stretch that out to 600yds and it might result in a miss or wounded animal.


I can see how that works, thanks!


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## CaptKeith (Nov 28, 2020)

nmurph said:


> Sorry, but this is not correct...well, kind of. It's true for the exact center of the reticle assuming that's where you zeroed to. But as soon as you move off that point, the POI will shift relative to the axis of the bore. Dial the scope up or down, or use the BDC marks and your shots will not hit where they should. It may or may not matter depending largely on the distance you are shooting and how important accucracy is to you. In the deer woods at 100yds, you're probably  not going to notice it. Stretch that out to 600yds and it might result in a miss or wounded animal.





Jester896 said:


> I'm not so sure it wouldn't at 3 or 400



Murph and Jester, I’ve been thinking about this, and I think I’m going to stick with my original assumption, but would like your thoughts on why I may be wrong.  Her are my thoughts:  My body is not quite the same as yours, amd I might naturally cant the gun slightly more than you.  If I make my reticule vertical to my cant, then as long as I go vertical along the line of my reticule it will stay on out to as far as the gun will shoot.  In other words, I can cant my reticule all I want, even stupidly crooked, and as long as I hold the gun in an attitude of vertical reticule, then it will be accurate all the way out.  Where you can get in trouble is when the reticule is crooked when you hold the gun, then as you raise the gun for different ranges your center moves, causing a miss. Bottom line is that the reticule must be vertical to the shooter and how the shooter raises for range, not to some particular part of the gun.


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## Jester896 (Nov 28, 2020)

you can do it any way you would like.

I believe it is a flaw in the way you mount the rifle.  It reminds me of my friend that is left handed and buys right hand rifles.  They don't fit him and he has to cant the scope to compensate.

they make mounts for ARs so that you can mount sights at a 45.  What you are saying is valid and there are uses for it.  I don't believe in a bolt gun it is conducive to repeatable accuracy.  All of the published data that folks don't generally prove on their gun will be off.

Mount your scope 90* from where you have it.  This will of course exaggerate things.  Anything you use to calculate spin drift is going to be affected.  And it will be really hard to adjust your windage.  What figure exactly will you use to make the spin drift calculations since the bore is off of the right side (if that is the way you went) of the vertical plane?  How much up will you need when the barrel is 1.5" to the right (the distance your scope might be mounted) instead of vertical?  You will just have a milder version of this.

probably will work ok at 100 or so yards

i wonder why rifle makers drill those holes on top to mount your scope in the center of the bore?


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## rosewood (Nov 30, 2020)

No doubt holding the crosshair crooked isn't going to do well at distance and even when the vertical crosshair isn't passing through the center of the bore, your impact will be closer to where you intend.  However, at distance when the vertical crosshair isn't passing through the bore and the crosshair is straight, the impact is going to drift further and further from the vertical crosshair the farther out you go.  If it is vertical, the bullet will fall along the line of the vertical crosshair.  If not vertical, it will fall along a line at an angle from the vertical crosshair moving it further from the crosshair which will put it off if you are using BDC reticles, or are adding clicks.  To zero it at distance, you would need to move both windage and elevation to adjust from 100 yards to say 500 yards to compensate for just the distance.  A picture would help, but I am having a hard time figuring out how to draw it.

Rosewood


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## rosewood (Nov 30, 2020)

Jester896 said:


> they make mounts for ARs so that you can mount sights at a 45.



Yes, but in theory, they will be perpendicular to the bore which would still allow for the crosshair to bisect the bore.  Even if not, those are usually for close range sights (red dots etc, magnified scope is still mounted on the top, I believe, which the error is insignificant in a run and gun competition.

Rosewood


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## Jester896 (Nov 30, 2020)

rosewood said:


> Yes, but in theory, they will be perpendicular to the bore which would still allow for the crosshair to bisect the bore.  Even if not, those are usually for close range sights (red dots etc, magnified scope is still mounted on the top, I believe, which the error is insignificant in a run and gun competition.
> 
> Rosewood


that was one of the points I was trying to make.  His sights (canted)will be perpendicular to the bore as well...and he would be OK at close range only


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## rosewood (Nov 30, 2020)

Jester896 said:


> that was one of the points I was trying to make.  His sights (canted)will be perpendicular to the bore as well...and he would be OK at close range only


I know, I was trying to provide another perspective.


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