# GOOD VS. EVIL



## matt79brown (Jun 19, 2018)

This has probably been addressed on here already if so I apologize in advance. Do Atheist recognize/ acknowledge/ identify good and evil or is it just circumstantial but yet perceived as such?


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## bullethead (Jun 20, 2018)

Yeah, it's been addressed


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## WaltL1 (Jun 20, 2018)

Define what you mean by "good and evil"?
The existence of God and the Devil?
Of course an Atheist can recognize/acknowledge/identify what we deem to be good acts and what we deem to be evil acts.
But even good and evil can be subjective. What one my consider good, another may consider evil.


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## oldfella1962 (Jun 20, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Define what you mean by "good and evil"?
> The existence of God and the Devil?
> Of course an Atheist can recognize/acknowledge/identify what we deem to be good acts and what we deem to be evil acts.
> But even good and evil can be subjective. What one my consider good, another may consider evil.



True! Taken to it's ultimate limit, a believer might think eternal fiery torment for unbelievers is good, since god really hates sin and we were warned well ahead of time. A non-believer might think eternal fiery torment is evil just on general principle. Hey, whatever floats your boat I guess.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 20, 2018)

matt79brown said:


> This has probably been addressed on here already



Never heard of it.


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## matt79brown (Jun 20, 2018)

Situational ethics, floating guidelines, adjustable standards but no black & white concrete rights or wrongs. Interesting, but I'm not buying it.


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## atlashunter (Jun 20, 2018)

matt79brown said:


> Situational ethics, floating guidelines, adjustable standards but no black & white concrete rights or wrongs. Interesting, but I'm not buying it.



Start by defining your terms.


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## ambush80 (Jun 20, 2018)

matt79brown said:


> Situational ethics, floating guidelines, adjustable standards but no black & white concrete rights or wrongs. Interesting, but I'm not buying it.



Why are you not buying it?


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## matt79brown (Jun 20, 2018)

I have a hard time believing that there are things we can't all agree that are wrong. I'm not saying that we won't do them because we know there wrong but that there is something inside of us that says ''that ain't right!''


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## ky55 (Jun 20, 2018)

matt79brown said:


> I have a hard time believing that there are things we can't all agree that are wrong.



I do too.
Can we start by agreeing that the genocide, rape, incest, and slavery in the Bible is wrong?
That should be easy enough. 

*


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## oldfella1962 (Jun 20, 2018)

matt79brown said:


> I have a hard time believing that there are things we can't all agree that are wrong. I'm not saying that we won't do them because we know there wrong but that there is something inside of us that says ''that ain't right!''



there are some things that 99 percent of the human race alive today thinks is wrong, or evil if you want to call it that. But in god's eyes knowing obvious good from obvious evil doesn't cut it. You either worship god or you burn. That's the only evil that really matters. Everything else is "rags" in god's eyes. Hey, don't shoot the messenger here!


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## atlashunter (Jun 20, 2018)

ky55 said:


> I do too.
> Can we start by agreeing that the genocide, rape, incest, and slavery in the Bible is wrong?
> That should be easy enough.
> 
> *



"That's different!" 

If the OP is either unable or unwilling to define the terms being discussed there isn't much point in discussing them. Everyone will just be talking past each other.


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## Israel (Jun 21, 2018)

That's a tough one Matt. I never steal pens at work...I often just find them alone, seemingly abandoned, and forlorn...and give them a home.

Seriously...it could sound like I am saying "even the believer whose spiritual  senses should be refined to knowing good and evil...(in presumption "_like me") _could suffer a _not knowing_.

I'm always convicted when I read about the person who strives to return the bag stuffed with C notes they found in the backseat of a taxi.

I think I'd be terrified to learn just how much I've robbed. If not for mercy...

You get it, right?

Off hand I'd say lying is an evil thing. 
But then , I think about folks like the ten Booms.

"No Jews here..."

And I see that it's one thing to comfortably sit in a place of no conflict and admire "_my own_ refined sense of good and evil", and quite another to either put oneself, or _find oneself_ where life is on the line.

I think we (_at least_ I see it in myself) may also find a comfort, or _self admiration _in the perception of ourselves as _lovers of truth. _Yet truth at best is a gold ring with very sharp edges, a two edged sword that must do as thorough a work within as we may hope it would do _"without" _to our defense. Jesus does not spare disciples...stiff rebuke.

In truth, we may really find this (specifically)_ true:_

"Those whom I love, I rebuke and chasten" 

so that the disciple himself may begin to see "I have been placed where I am now open _to all _rebuke"
I cannot defeat it. I cannot resist it, I cannot thwart this reality.

But there is also that great comfort..._is there not(?)..._that even under the stiffest of rebuke and opposition that may (at the time) seem to be all of our own undoing (even to what is perceived as _total collapse_)...the conviction that we are being loved (precisely) through this.

In the very deepest sense that I yet have known, I cannot deny the disciple's call to Jesus Christ is as much in learning how wrong he has been, and _yet may be _through the knowledge of Jesus Christ.

This light is indeed unsparing, no respecter of persons. There is nothing of self there to make a "good argument against it"...there is, as always, and thankfully, only One to present for mercy. Present...to show...mercy.

Paul says an interesting thing:

But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 

A man (such as myself) might say "I was delivered from drinking, or being a wife beater, an adulterer, a _rebrobate_"...and begin to think something of himself. But we find the deeper this walk leads...there are things of which we were previously unaware, deep, dark things of pride and arrogance....and rebellions...and even wishes for death "to enemies"...that come to light. (specifically for the removal) in our own souls.

There is only one thing I am always made (eventually) very glad to know...that I have been completely wrong about. And that is the depths of mercy to be found in Jesus Christ.

I see a bit...and instantly begin to think "ahhh, now I know...!" But there is always someone watching who has purposed to not leave me in such a place of poverty.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 21, 2018)

matt79brown said:


> Situational ethics, floating guidelines, adjustable standards but no black & white concrete rights or wrongs. Interesting, but I'm not buying it.


You asked us a question.
You apparently have supplied yourself with the answers and now you aren't buying it?
My question to you would be "why did you bother asking"?


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## WaltL1 (Jun 21, 2018)

> ky55 said:
> I do too.
> Can we start by agreeing that the genocide, rape, incest, and slavery in the Bible is wrong?
> That should be easy enough.





> "atlashunter, post: 11241100, member: 34470"]"That's different!"


Watch how fast those black and white concrete wrongs turn into -


> Situational ethics, floating guidelines, adjustable standards


The ones he's not buying.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 21, 2018)

ky55 said:


> Can we start by agreeing that the genocide, rape, incest, and slavery in the Bible is wrong?
> That should be easy enough.
> 
> *



Good example of how twisted hate can make you.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 21, 2018)

> ky55 said:
> Can we start by agreeing that the genocide, rape, incest, and slavery in the Bible is wrong?


That should be easy enough.


SemperFiDawg said:


> Good example of how twisted hate can make you.


I agree. Those things are definitely not good examples of "love your neighbor".


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## ky55 (Jun 21, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Good example of how twisted hate can make you.



What does God hate?

 “These six things the Lord hates, yes, seven are an abomination to Him: A proud look, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that are swift in running to evil, a false witness who speaks lies, and one who sows discord among brethren” (Proverbs 6:16-19).”

Hmmm, no mention of genocide, incest, rape, or slavery?


That seems “twisted” to me. 

*


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 21, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> That should be easy enough.
> 
> I agree. Those things are definitely not good examples of "love your neighbor".



Not good examples of the truth or even a semblances of it.  Great example of how Athiest have no regard for truth though.  Same song, different day.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 21, 2018)

ky55 said:


> What does God hate?
> 
> “These six things the Lord hates, yes, seven are an abomination to Him: A proud look, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that are swift in running to evil, a false witness who speaks lies, and one who sows discord among brethren” (Proverbs 6:16-19).”
> 
> ...



I truly pity you.  I do.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 21, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Not good examples of the truth or even a semblances of it.  Great example of how Athiest have no regard for truth though.  Same song, different day.


You got us. We made it up. None of those things are really in the Bible.
Shucks ya dun out smarted us.


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## ky55 (Jun 21, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> You got us. We made it up. None of those things are really in the Bible.
> Shucks ya dun out smarted us.



Yep, busted.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 21, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> You got us. We made it up. None of those things are really in the Bible.
> Shucks ya dun out smarted us.



You’re correct.  They aren’t.  Just your twisting of it.  Feel free to prove me wrong.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 21, 2018)

ky55 said:


> Yep, busted.


I told you it wouldn't work !
I mean all you gotta do is open the book and you will see they arent in there.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 21, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> You’re correct.  They aren’t.  Just your twisting of it.  Feel free to prove me wrong.


Open YOUR book.


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## oldfella1962 (Jun 21, 2018)

ky55 said:


> What does God hate?
> 
> “These six things the Lord hates, yes, seven are an abomination to Him: A proud look, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that are swift in running to evil, a false witness who speaks lies, and one who sows discord among brethren” (Proverbs 6:16-19).”
> 
> ...



I found a loophole....genocide, incest, rape & slavery (great folk-rock band name BTW) can be wrapped up under "a heart that devises wicked plans".


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 21, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Open YOUR book.



I see we’ve reached the point where when asked for proof to substantiate your lies you chose to evade.  No suprise.  Nothing to do but move on to another lie I guess.  Apparently the only thing ‘Free Thinkers’ are free from is actually thinking, and any moral obligation to truth.


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## bullethead (Jun 21, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I see we’ve reached the point where when asked for proof to substantiate your lies you chose to evade.  No suprise.  Nothing to do but move on to another lie I guess.  Apparently the only thing ‘Free Thinkers’ are free from is actually thinking.


Sfd, you need to be honest with yourself. You have never contributed a single apologetic post in here. You pop in, make unverifiable claims, act as if you've refuted every fact against you and then run your mouth about atheists. You are your own worst enemy.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 21, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Sfd, you need to be honest with yourself. You have never contributed a single apologetic post in here. You pop in, make unverifiable claims, act as if you've refuted every fact against you and then run your mouth about atheists. You are your own worst enemy.



I think anyone with half a brain and one eye can discern the validity of your statement and the where the pool of sources of the unverifiable claims lies.    No point in me responding any further.


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## bullethead (Jun 21, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I think anyone with half a brain and one eye can discern the validity of your statement and the where the pool of sources of the unverifiable claims lies.    No point in me responding any further.


You set the groundwork of requirements of discernment and then bow out of responding. You did the right thing by knowing your own credentials and abilities.


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## 660griz (Jun 21, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> You’re correct.  They aren’t.  Just your twisting of it.  Feel free to prove me wrong.



_If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years.  Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom.  If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year.  But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him.  If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master.  But the slave may plainly declare, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children.  I would rather not go free.’  If he does this, his master must present him before God.  Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl.  After that, the slave will belong to his master forever._ (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)


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## WaltL1 (Jun 21, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Sfd, you need to be honest with yourself. You have never contributed a single apologetic post in here. You pop in, make unverifiable claims, act as if you've refuted every fact against you and then run your mouth about atheists. You are your own worst enemy.


No, he's a Christian's worst enemy.  
And he doesn't care.
His priority is "I'm going to battle A/As regardless of the ridiculous nonsense I have to spew and I don't care how it makes Christians look".
Fortunately, there are Christians here who are far better spokesman for Christian beliefs to temper that.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 21, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I see we’ve reached the point where when asked for proof to substantiate your lies you chose to evade.  No suprise.  Nothing to do but move on to another lie I guess.  Apparently the only thing ‘Free Thinkers’ are free from is actually thinking, and any moral obligation to truth.


I repeat, open your book.


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## ky55 (Jun 21, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> No, he's a Christian's worst enemy.



And an A/A’s shining example.


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## atlashunter (Jun 21, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Not good examples of the truth or even a semblances of it.  Great example of how Athiest have no regard for truth though.  Same song, different day.



Like I was saying...


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## atlashunter (Jun 21, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> You’re correct.  They aren’t.  Just your twisting of it.  Feel free to prove me wrong.



Rape:
https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/rape.html

Genocide:
https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/genocide.html

Slavery:
https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/slavery.html

Incest:
https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/incest.html


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## ky55 (Jun 21, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Rape:
> https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/rape.html
> 
> Genocide:
> ...



Yep, you even get a two-fer with Lot and his daughters...
Since he was too drunk to consent it was incest AND rape. 

*


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 21, 2018)

660griz said:


> _If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years.  Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom.  If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year.  But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him.  If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master.  But the slave may plainly declare, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children.  I would rather not go free.’  If he does this, his master must present him before God.  Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl.  After that, the slave will belong to his master forever._ (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)



Your point?


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 21, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Rape:
> https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/rape.html
> 
> Genocide:
> ...



Ahhh the Skeptics Annotated Bible.  That would explain a lot.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 21, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I repeat, open your book.



I have.  Ain’t seeing it.  You wanna point it out.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 21, 2018)

ky55 said:


> Yep, you even get a two-fer with Lot and his daughters...
> Since he was too drunk to consent it was incest AND rape.
> 
> *



Your point?


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## matt79brown (Jun 21, 2018)

Situational ethics= when my standards of whats right or wrong change depending on the situation at hand. Floating guidelines= when I change the rules to best fit my needs at the time. Adjustable standards= being able to ''update'' to fit current times. Concrete black & white rights and wrongs= Such as cruelty, torture, rape,ect....... And yes the bible does record terrible behavior throughout it's pages but I didn't mention the bible, or eternal punishment or anything theological. I was simply wondering if we all agreed that there are things we (humans as a whole/majority) deem to be unacceptable behavior in our society.And if so what is it in us that says ''hey this is wrong!''? The thread was not intended to have any angle or underlying motive. As a believer there are things that I accredit to the Holy Spirit or a knowledge of what I believe to be God's standards that effect how I feel about certain things. However when I was an unbeliever there where things that I felt strongly against. Things that I would have thought any normal person would view as wrong. Where did those feelings or beliefs come from? And please don't tell me it was ''enviromental'' because you do not know what ''environment'' I grew up in.


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## Israel (Jun 22, 2018)

matt79brown said:


> Situational ethics= when my standards of whats right or wrong change depending on the situation at hand. Floating guidelines= when I change the rules to best fit my needs at the time. Adjustable standards= being able to ''update'' to fit current times. Concrete black & white rights and wrongs= Such as cruelty, torture, rape,ect....... And yes the bible does record terrible behavior throughout it's pages but I didn't mention the bible, or eternal punishment or anything theological. I was simply wondering if we all agreed that there are things we (humans as a whole/majority) deem to be unacceptable behavior in our society.And if so what is it in us that says ''hey this is wrong!''? The thread was not intended to have any angle or underlying motive. As a believer there are things that I accredit to the Holy Spirit or a knowledge of what I believe to be God's standards that effect how I feel about certain things. However when I was an unbeliever there where things that I felt strongly against. Things that I would have thought any normal person would view as wrong. Where did those feelings or beliefs come from? And please don't tell me it was ''enviromental'' because you do not know what ''environment'' I grew up in.



Yeah.
Can't say I've ever come across anyone that didn't have some sense that there are "right" things and "wrong" things.
And even disagreement as to what they might be in particular, still signals the presence of that sense.

Conviction _to a consistency is_ something else however...that _seems_ to be only _apparent_ in every man to_ some_ degree.

Makes me think of the time when the Jews got their panties all in a wad at Jesus calling Himself the Son of God.

Also makes me think of the time the cop decided for himself what free speech is. And he wasn't going to suffer being taught it by me.

Seems men have a difficulty with being _schooled_. Unless they make an agreement to enter into it. Few realize that first breath was an enrollment.

You _may_ hear us whine "Do we have to be in Lab _every day._..?" (will there be a test at the end? will there be math?)


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## atlashunter (Jun 22, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Ahhh the Skeptics Annotated Bible.  That would explain a lot.



Ahhh the verses come from your bible.


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## atlashunter (Jun 22, 2018)

Matt it doesn’t just record terrible behavior it sanctions terrible behavior.


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## Israel (Jun 22, 2018)

God, not requiring more of any man in his present situation than _is bearable_, is called grace.

God, telling what is His to be kind to their slaves, is no less than He does.

Jesus has some. Slaves, that is. And He's not ashamed of ownership.
He's quite delighted with what is His.

Everyone is owned.

Who owns...you?

Everyone will discover.

_Among men_, repentance is eminently...bearable.

And each man is owned by what can break him.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 22, 2018)

matt79brown said:


> Situational ethics= when my standards of whats right or wrong change depending on the situation at hand. Floating guidelines= when I change the rules to best fit my needs at the time. Adjustable standards= being able to ''update'' to fit current times. Concrete black & white rights and wrongs= Such as cruelty, torture, rape,ect....... And yes the bible does record terrible behavior throughout it's pages but I didn't mention the bible, or eternal punishment or anything theological. I was simply wondering if we all agreed that there are things we (humans as a whole/majority) deem to be unacceptable behavior in our society.And if so what is it in us that says ''hey this is wrong!''? The thread was not intended to have any angle or underlying motive. As a believer there are things that I accredit to the Holy Spirit or a knowledge of what I believe to be God's standards that effect how I feel about certain things. However when I was an unbeliever there where things that I felt strongly against. Things that I would have thought any normal person would view as wrong. Where did those feelings or beliefs come from? And please don't tell me it was ''enviromental'' because you do not know what ''environment'' I grew up in.





> Situational ethics= when my standards of whats right or wrong change depending on the situation at hand. Floating guidelines= when I change the rules to best fit my needs at the time. Adjustable standards= being able to ''update'' to fit current times. Concrete black & white rights and wrongs= Such as cruelty, torture, rape,ect......


Yes all those exist at the same time.


> Where did those feelings or beliefs come from? And please don't tell me it was ''enviromental'' because you do not know what ''environment'' I grew up in.


They come from a combination of things - environment, personal feelings, the society/geography/culture you live in, experiences etc etc.


> And please don't tell me it was ''enviromental'' because you do not know what ''environment'' I grew up in


"environmental" can work 2 ways. You can be raised in a violent, lawless, gang banging environment and become/think just like that or you can see/experience that an become/think just the opposite.


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## 660griz (Jun 22, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Your point?


I wasn't trying to make a point. Just answering your request.

What you should be saying is,"Yep, all that bad stuff is in the bible but, how was God supposed to know it would one day be frowned upon." Oh, wait....


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## Israel (Jun 22, 2018)

One thing a believer can know is that he reeks of death to some noses.


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## Spotlite (Jun 22, 2018)

matt79brown said:


> Situational ethics= when my standards of whats right or wrong change depending on the situation at hand. Floating guidelines= when I change the rules to best fit my needs at the time. Adjustable standards= being able to ''update'' to fit current times. Concrete black & white rights and wrongs= Such as cruelty, torture, rape,ect....... And yes the bible does record terrible behavior throughout it's pages but I didn't mention the bible, or eternal punishment or anything theological. I was simply wondering if we all agreed that there are things we (humans as a whole/majority) deem to be unacceptable behavior in our society.And if so what is it in us that says ''hey this is wrong!''? The thread was not intended to have any angle or underlying motive. As a believer there are things that I accredit to the Holy Spirit or a knowledge of what I believe to be God's standards that effect how I feel about certain things. However when I was an unbeliever there where things that I felt strongly against. Things that I would have thought any normal person would view as wrong. Where did those feelings or beliefs come from? And please don't tell me it was ''enviromental'' because you do not know what ''environment'' I grew up in.


Ethics / Standards  - It is ever changing as society changes. Something that is accepted in yesterdays society is rejected in todays. Something that was rejected in yesterdays society is accepted today. The troublesome part is using yesterdays to condemn todays.


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## Israel (Jun 22, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Ethics / Standards  - It is ever changing as society changes. Something that is accepted in yesterdays society is rejected in todays. Something that was rejected in yesterdays society is accepted today. The troublesome part is using yesterdays to condemn todays.



Yes...or using today's to condemn yesterdays.

I am kinda persuaded a lot of folks would think they'd stand on the corner of Appian Way and Caesar Augustus Blvd in ancient Rome hollering "Free the slaves! Free the slaves"

I get that most wanna see themselves as Spartacus...but I'd probably have been the fat guy with greasy fingers picking through the mutton.

Jesus had something to say to the fellows that thought they would not have stoned the prophets.  

It's a rare day One doesn't find me thinking "gee, I _really am_ a better man".


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## ky55 (Jun 22, 2018)

Israel said:


> Yes...or using today's to condemn yesterdays.
> 
> I am kinda persuaded a lot of folks would think they'd stand on the corner of Appian Way and Caesar Augustus Blvd in ancient Rome hollering "Free the slaves! Free the slaves"



I’ve always thought it was kinda interesting that the Southern Baptist Convention, after hollering “Don’t free the slaves! Don’t free the slaves!” for the 150 years after their organization in 1845, saw fit to issue an apology at their convention in 1995 for their support of slavery. 

http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/899/...nniversary-of-the-southern-baptist-convention

*Resolution On Racial Reconciliation On The 150th Anniversary Of The Southern Baptist Convention
Atlanta, Georgia - 1995*

WHEREAS, Since its founding in 1845, the Southern Baptist Convention has been an effective instrument of God in missions, evangelism, and social ministry; and

WHEREAS, The Scriptures teach that Eve is the mother of all living (Genesis 3:20), and that God shows no partiality, but in every nation whoever fears him and works righteousness is accepted by him (Acts 10:34-35), and that God has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on the face of the earth (Acts 17:26); and

WHEREAS, Our relationship to African-Americans has been hindered from the beginning by the role that slavery played in the formation of the Southern Baptist Convention; and

WHEREAS, Many of our Southern Baptist forbears defended the right to own slaves, and either participated in, supported, or acquiesced in the particularly inhumane nature of American slavery; and

WHEREAS, In later years Southern Baptists failed, in many cases, to support, and in some cases opposed, legitimate initiatives to secure the civil rights of African-Americans; and

WHEREAS, Racism has led to discrimination, oppression, injustice, and violence, both in the Civil War and throughout the history of our nation; and

WHEREAS, Racism has divided the body of Christ and Southern Baptists in particular, and separated us from our African-American brothers and sisters; and

WHEREAS, Many of our congregations have intentionally and/or unintentionally excluded African-Americans from worship, membership, and leadership; and

WHEREAS, Racism profoundly distorts our understanding of Christian morality, leading some Southern Baptists to believe that racial prejudice and discrimination are compatible with the Gospel; and

WHEREAS, Jesus performed the ministry of reconciliation to restore sinners to a right relationship with the Heavenly Father, and to establish right relations among all human beings, especially within the family of faith.

Therefore, be it RESOLVED, That we, the messengers to the Sesquicentennial meeting of the Southern Baptist Convention, assembled in Atlanta, Georgia, June 20-22, 1995, unwaveringly denounce racism, in all its forms, as deplorable sin; and

Be it further RESOLVED, That we affirm the Bibles teaching that every human life is sacred, and is of equal and immeasurable worth, made in Gods image, regardless of race or ethnicity (Genesis 1:27), and that, with respect to salvation through Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for (we) are all one in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:28); and


Be it further RESOLVED, That we lament and repudiate historic acts of evil such as slavery from which we continue to reap a bitter harvest, and we recognize that the racism which yet plagues our culture today is inextricably tied to the past; and

Be it further RESOLVED, That we apologize to all African-Americans for condoning and/or perpetuating individual and systemic racism in our lifetime; and we genuinely repent of racism of which we have been guilty, whether consciously (Psalm 19:13) or unconsciously (Leviticus 4:27); and

Be it further RESOLVED, That we ask forgiveness from our African-American brothers and sisters, acknowledging that our own healing is at stake; and

Be it further RESOLVED, That we hereby commit ourselves to eradicate racism in all its forms from Southern Baptist life and ministry; and

Be it further RESOLVED, That we commit ourselves to be doers of the Word (James 1:22) by pursuing racial reconciliation in all our relationships, especially with our brothers and sisters in Christ (1 John 2:6), to the end that our light would so shine before others, that they may see (our) good works and glorify (our) Father in heaven (Matthew 5:16); and

Be it finally RESOLVED, That we pledge our commitment to the Great Commission task of making disciples of all people (Matthew 28:19), confessing that in the church God is calling together one people from every tribe and nation (Revelation 5:9), and proclaiming that the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ is the only certain and sufficient ground upon which redeemed persons will stand together in restored family union as joint-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17).


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## Spotlite (Jun 22, 2018)

ky55 said:


> I’ve always thought it was kinda interesting that the Southern Baptist Convention, after hollering “Don’t free the slaves! Don’t free the slaves!” for the 150 years after their organization in 1845, saw fit to issue an apology at their convention in 1995 for their support of slavery.


As society changes so does everything else. A 100 years ago who would have imagined that the Supreme Court would declare laws against desecrating the flag were unconstitutional?


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## matt79brown (Jun 22, 2018)

So..... there is good & evil?


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## red neck richie (Jun 22, 2018)

matt79brown said:


> So..... there is good & evil?


Of course there is. We dont differ on that. Where we differ is weather Satan is involved?


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## atlashunter (Jun 23, 2018)

ky55 said:


> I’ve always thought it was kinda interesting that the Southern Baptist Convention, after hollering “Don’t free the slaves! Don’t free the slaves!” for the 150 years after their organization in 1845, saw fit to issue an apology at their convention in 1995 for their support of slavery.
> 
> http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/899/...nniversary-of-the-southern-baptist-convention
> 
> ...



You would think a perfect moral code from an infallible creator wouldn’t lend support to both sides of the fence.


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## ambush80 (Jun 23, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> You would think a perfect moral code from an infallible creator wouldn’t lend support to both sides of the fence.



Devil's Advocate (DA):

"The words are perfect.  The failure is Man's."

Let's assume that's true.  Fact: People used the Bible to support slavery.  Fact: People used the Bible to dissolve slavery.  I've heard believers (my mom included) that say that God was speaking to people to whom the institution of slavery was deeply rooted in their culture and that He knew that one day humankind would be "mature" enough to understand the ultimate evil of slavery.  If that's true then it's an example that God's will might not be clearly understood by the people of any given time and that as humankind matures they might eventually understand His true message.

What else are modern believers (yes, YOU) misunderstanding? What else may He reveal as Right for our time and yet Wrong for all time?  And what exactly are the methods by which the TRUE GOOD is revealed.  How was slavery changed from bad to good?  Were abolitionists given a spark of revelation?  They were certainly looked upon as agitators perhaps even heretics during their own time.  Who are those people today?


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## ky55 (Jun 23, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> You would think a perfect moral code from an infallible creator wouldn’t lend support to both sides of the fence.



They continued with racism and segregation long after abolition-all the way up to their public apology 150 years after their separation from the abolitionists......
while claiming the approval and support of their God.


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## ambush80 (Jun 23, 2018)

ky55 said:


> They continued with racism and segregation long after abolition-all the way up to their public apology 150 years after their separation from the abolitionists......
> while claiming the approval and support of their God.



There might be someone here whose grandparents are still alive and who might still believe that slavery is good and sanctioned by the Bible. Believers of every time period are certain in their beliefs and their reasons for them would sound exactly the same as those of believers today.

Perhaps the true lesson of how the Bible can be used to justify or abolish slavery is that it is appropriate to it's time.  The fact that people can read the same words out of it and come to very different ideas about what is moral may be its best attribute.


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## matt79brown (Jun 23, 2018)

Southern Baptist Convention or any other organization has adjustable standards. When you make the rules you can change them as you see fit. Like playing back yard ball. Perfect example of the situational ethics and floating guidelines that I referenced earlier. I sat in on a lecture of a political scientist that says the Constitution was written with the idea in mind that even though society wasn't quite ready for it yet, slavery would be abolished in the near future. I don't know if he is right or not. If so, kudos to those founding fathers for being ahead of their times. Seems like most of us would deem slavery as bad/evil. Ok, so we're getting somewhere. No one told us slavery is wrong but somehow we just know? Maybe?


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## WaltL1 (Jun 23, 2018)

matt79brown said:


> Southern Baptist Convention or any other organization has adjustable standards. When you make the rules you can change them as you see fit. Like playing back yard ball. Perfect example of the situational ethics and floating guidelines that I referenced earlier. I sat in on a lecture of a political scientist that says the Constitution was written with the idea in mind that even though society wasn't quite ready for it yet, slavery would be abolished in the near future. I don't know if he is right or not. If so, kudos to those founding fathers for being ahead of their times. Seems like most of us would deem slavery as bad/evil. Ok, so we're getting somewhere. No one told us slavery is wrong but somehow we just know? Maybe?


We don't just know. Slavery didn't used to be considered "wrong". Now it is.
How did we figure that out? A light bulb just went on or years of people trying to change our minds?


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## ky55 (Jun 23, 2018)

matt79brown said:


> Southern Baptist Convention or any other organization has adjustable standards. When you make the rules you can change them as you see fit. Like playing back yard ball. Perfect example of the situational ethics and floating guidelines that I referenced earlier.



Is this inconsistent with your earlier post #6?

“Situational ethics, floating guidelines, adjustable standards but no black & white concrete rights or wrongs. Interesting, but I'm not buying it.”

The “adjustable standards” thing isn’t working out well for the United Methodist Church right now...

http://www.andrewthompson.com/chris...venant-schism-in-the-united-methodist-church/

“The issues that have led to schismatic actions within the UMC are no secret. The primary issue is the way that people read the Bible and understand biblical authority. Closely related to that is how we identify and interpret the work of the Holy Spirit. And of course, the actual presenting issues are those related to God’s intention for our sexuality, the definition of marriage, and the standards for ordination.”

*


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## ambush80 (Jun 23, 2018)

matt79brown said:


> Southern Baptist Convention or any other organization has adjustable standards. When you make the rules you can change them as you see fit. Like playing back yard ball. Perfect example of the situational ethics and floating guidelines that I referenced earlier. I sat in on a lecture of a political scientist that says the Constitution was written with the idea in mind that even though society wasn't quite ready for it yet, slavery would be abolished in the near future. I don't know if he is right or not. If so, kudos to those founding fathers for being ahead of their times. Seems like most of us would deem slavery as bad/evil. Ok, so we're getting somewhere. No one told us slavery is wrong but somehow we just know? Maybe?



The idea that slavery is wrong came from The Enlightenment.  



WaltL1 said:


> We don't just know. Slavery didn't used to be considered "wrong". Now it is.
> How did we figure that out? A light bulb just went on or years of people trying to change our minds?



The immorality of slavery can be derived from the principle of Human Rights.  I personally believe that the only right we have is to our own body.  That alone will show the immorality of slavery.


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## matt79brown (Jun 23, 2018)

I'm guessing that if I'd been around in the 1800's I'd been riding with John Brown! Regardless of how the Baptist felt.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 23, 2018)

matt79brown said:


> I'm guessing that if I'd been around in the 1800's I'd been riding with John Brown! Regardless of how the Baptist felt.


That is one dude who definitely led an eventful life!


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## atlashunter (Jun 24, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Devil's Advocate (DA):
> 
> "The words are perfect.  The failure is Man's."
> 
> ...



I’ve heard that one too. In other words he was compromising his own morality by sanctioning what he knew to be immoral in order to conform with human culture and norms. Someone can believe that if they want but it begs the question why all the murderous activity then against those he found morally repugnant? Seems to me this is just another example of Christians making it up as they go along and looking for a dishonest excuse to avoid responsibility for a clear moral failing in their religion.


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## atlashunter (Jun 24, 2018)

matt79brown said:


> Southern Baptist Convention or any other organization has adjustable standards. When you make the rules you can change them as you see fit. Like playing back yard ball. Perfect example of the situational ethics and floating guidelines that I referenced earlier. I sat in on a lecture of a political scientist that says the Constitution was written with the idea in mind that even though society wasn't quite ready for it yet, slavery would be abolished in the near future. I don't know if he is right or not. If so, kudos to those founding fathers for being ahead of their times. Seems like most of us would deem slavery as bad/evil. Ok, so we're getting somewhere. No one told us slavery is wrong but somehow we just know? Maybe?



Even the morality of slavery is subjective. We think of it as wrong just as we think of murder as wrong but there are situations where killing is moral and I would argue there are situations where slavery is moral. People want moral absolutes because they want easy answers. But there are always exceptions to the rule in real life. Morality isn’t that easy or simple. It requires thought and judgment, as imperfect as that is. That’s really off putting to some folks.


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## atlashunter (Jun 24, 2018)

ky55 said:


> They continued with racism and segregation long after abolition-all the way up to their public apology 150 years after their separation from the abolitionists......
> while claiming the approval and support of their God.



The Bible doesn’t indicate to me Yahweh has an issue with either racism or segregation.


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## bullethead (Jun 24, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Even the morality of slavery is subjective. We think of it as wrong just as we think of murder as wrong but there are situations where killing is moral and I would argue there are situations where slavery is moral. People want moral absolutes because they want easy answers. But there are always exceptions to the rule in real life. Morality isn’t that easy or simple. It requires thought and judgment, as imperfect as that is. That’s really off putting to some folks.


People like to think that there is a level of Moral above their own in the hopes that all their immorality is canceled out because of it, but the the truth is (that none of them admit to) is they are just as immoral as the next person in daily life and would change their morals as the situation dictates if needed.


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