# The Ark Before Noah



## bullethead (Jan 24, 2014)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/10574173/Irving-Finkel-reader-of-the-lost-Ark.html



> Four thousand years ago, a millennium and a half before the first Jewish scholars put pen to parchment on the Book of Genesis, a scribe in what is now Iraq carved the story of a great flood on to a clay tablet, in the strange and beautiful script known as cuneiform. The story told of how a god came and warned a great man to build a boat, and to take his family on that boat, and two animals of every kind, because the world was to be cleansed with a flood.
> 
> About 30 years ago, one Douglas Simmonds wandered in to the British Museum, and handed the tablet to a man called Irving Finkel, who immediately recognised it as one of the most important archaeological finds of recent years. Dr Finkel, an Assyriologist or student of the civilisations of ancient Mesopotamia, begged Simmonds to leave it with him, but he would do no such thing. It took him until 2009 to convince Simmonds to let him have it; when he did, what he discovered was a piece of the flood story – the Assyrian story of the Ark, centuries before Noah.



Click on link for full story


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## WaltL1 (Jan 25, 2014)

bullethead said:


> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/10574173/Irving-Finkel-reader-of-the-lost-Ark.html
> 
> 
> 
> Click on link for full story


Interesting read. Im trying to find disagreement of Finkels translation of the tablet by other professionals in this field but not finding any. Did you see any?


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## drippin' rock (Jan 25, 2014)

We have put forth this theory here before.  I have said that whatever people started the flood story probably lived in a valley by a river so would be familiar with flooding. They would think their whole " world" would be flooded.  Cool to see that Mesopotamia was in a flood plain.


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## bullethead (Jan 25, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> Interesting read. Im trying to find disagreement of Finkels translation of the tablet by other professionals in this field but not finding any. Did you see any?



I have not taken the time to compare his findings in translation but quickly going off of the top of my head the Sumerian story "The Epic of Gilgamesh" tells of the flood.
http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/mesopotamian/gilgamesh/tab11.htm
There are 12 tablets that talk about the adventure. They date back to 2000BC with some fragments of earlier works as far back as 3300BC.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 27, 2014)

And tell me again why this story contradicts the story of Noah and the flood instead of corroborating it?


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## hummdaddy (Jan 27, 2014)

ah yes our creators !!!!


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## Four (Jan 27, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> And tell me again why this story contradicts the story of Noah and the flood instead of corroborating it?



I (think) it was meant to point out another thing that judao-christian lore isn't original, and like many religious stories / lore they are inherited by older stories of other religions.

Much like the virgin birth story being a common story, so is the flood story.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 27, 2014)

Four said:


> I (think) it was meant to point out another thing that judao-christian lore isn't original, and like many religious stories / lore they are inherited by older stories of other religions.
> 
> Much like the virgin birth story being a common story, so is the flood story.



Wouldn't we have to actually "know" the original story before we can make the determination of which is original?  In all honesty all we have is similar stories inscribed on differently dated manuscripts if you will.


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## Four (Jan 27, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Wouldn't we have to actually "know" the original story before we can make the determination of which is original?  In all honesty all we have is similar stories inscribed on differently dated manuscripts if you will.



Well, its very unlikely one is original, which seems far more likely is both are different versions of a very popular verbal legend.  One was written down before the other... but the flood myth is old... very old, and popular.

If i was going to try to point to a written account of it that was decidedly "older" it would be in the Epic of Gilgamesh, which is one of the oldest surviving works of literature that we've found.


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## HawgJawl (Jan 27, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Wouldn't we have to actually "know" the original story before we can make the determination of which is original?  In all honesty all we have is similar stories inscribed on differently dated manuscripts if you will.



What do you believe to be the significance of the miraculous revelation of the Ten Commandments to Moses on Mount Sinai?  Do believe that something "new" was revealed to man by God?


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## WaltL1 (Jan 27, 2014)

Four said:


> Well, its very unlikely one is original, which seems far more likely is both are different versions of a very popular verbal legend.  One was written down before the other... but the flood myth is old... very old, and popular.
> 
> If i was going to try to point to a written account of it that was decidedly "older" it would be in the Epic of Gilgamesh, which is one of the oldest surviving works of literature that we've found.


Agreed. The article doesn't claim anything is "original". Only that the same story with different players predates the story of Noah.


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## bullethead (Jan 27, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> And tell me again why this story contradicts the story of Noah and the flood instead of corroborating it?



Whoever wrote Genesis copied the Flood story from this one. This one was probably copied from another. Plagiarism is not corroborating. It shows how one localized event that happened small scale a thousand years earlier has turned into the improbable embellishments in Genesis.

If you ever peek out from under your safety blanket read up about the earlier accounts and you will find their Gods were responsible too. I guess the world used to flood pretty regularly back then depending on which God was angry at the time.


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## 660griz (Jan 27, 2014)

I have no doubt someone's 'world' was flooded. When you only have walking as a means of transportation, your 'world' is quite small. It is also completely feasable the simple minds of that day were forced to explain this natural disaster. "God did it." 
No one bothered asking why an all powerful God would resort to such barbaric practice of murder when he could just make the people he didn't like go away. Hmmmm.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 27, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> What do you believe to be the significance of the miraculous revelation of the Ten Commandments to Moses on Mount Sinai?  Do believe that something "new" was revealed to man by God?



Well that comes waaaaay out of left field.  I'm trying to see the relevance.  I don't think I can make it fit into the context of this thread without derailing it so I won't.  Sorry Hawg.  Maybe another thread or another day.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 27, 2014)

bullethead said:


> Whoever wrote Genesis copied the Flood story from this one. This one was probably copied from another. Plagiarism is not corroborating. It shows how one localized event that happened small scale a thousand years earlier has turned into the improbable embellishments in Genesis.
> 
> If you ever peek out from under your safety blanket read up about the earlier accounts and you will find their Gods were responsible too. I guess the world used to flood pretty regularly back then depending on which God was angry at the time.



Here we go again with an unfounded allegation of plagiarism when there is no way one can intelligently make such a statement based on the facts we have, but don't let the truth or intellect get in the way.  By all means, continue.


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## 660griz (Jan 27, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I'm trying to see the relevance.



I think the relevance is that the 10 commandments pre-date the bible also. Just a guess though.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 27, 2014)

660griz said:


> I have no doubt someone's 'world' was flooded. When you only have walking as a means of transportation, your 'world' is quite small. It is also completely feasable the simple minds of that day were forced to explain this natural disaster. "God did it."
> No one bothered asking why an all powerful God would resort to such barbaric practice of murder when he could just make the people he didn't like go away. Hmmmm.



Straw man ad nausea.


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## 660griz (Jan 27, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Straw man ad nausea.



So, the definition of straw man in your world is explanation you don't want to hear. Got it.


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## bullethead (Jan 27, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Here we go again with an unfounded allegation of plagiarism when there is no way one can intelligently make such a statement based on the facts we have, but don't let the truth or intellect get in the way.  By all means, continue.



SFD you need to step out of your own little world and see what is really going on. There are volumes written about this very subject and most of the leading authorities on ancient history and ancient religious history agree that the Flood story has been passed on from generation to generation and culture to culture with each slightly altering it to make it their own.

You should not toss words around like "intelligent" and "intelligently" until you prove you have some.


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## bullethead (Jan 27, 2014)

660griz said:


> So, the definition of straw man in your world is explanation you don't want to hear. Got it.



In all the time he spends here he has never done anything but make assertive statements and has never once provided a valid reason that backs them up.


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## HawgJawl (Jan 27, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Well that comes waaaaay out of left field.  I'm trying to see the relevance.  I don't think I can make it fit into the context of this thread without derailing it so I won't.  Sorry Hawg.  Maybe another thread or another day.





660griz said:


> I think the relevance is that the 10 commandments pre-date the bible also. Just a guess though.



Exactly.  But there is a much deeper issue at hand also.

If the Ten Commandments were some type of "revelation" from God, the origin of the earlier laws that were similar must be questioned.


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## TripleXBullies (Jan 27, 2014)

660griz said:


> So, the definition of straw man in your world is explanation you don't want to hear. Got it.



You got it.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 28, 2014)

660griz said:


> So, the definition of straw man in your world is explanation you don't want to hear. Got it.



Nope just an inaccurate one, but don't bother.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 28, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> Exactly.  But there is a much deeper issue at hand also.
> 
> If the Ten Commandments were some type of "revelation" from God, the origin of the earlier laws that were similar must be questioned.



If?


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## 660griz (Jan 28, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> If the Ten Commandments were some type of "revelation" from God, the origin of the earlier laws that were similar must be questioned.



Not really. The existence of similar 'laws' long before christianity just goes to undermine the christian claim that morals come from God, but instead, that the moral guidelines stem from ideas for what was good for the group/tribe.


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## bullethead (Jan 28, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> If?



It would be intellectually dishonest to think that there is not another possibility. An Angel told me that.


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## HawgJawl (Jan 28, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> Exactly.  But there is a much deeper issue at hand also.
> 
> If the Ten Commandments were some type of "revelation" from God, the origin of the earlier laws that were similar must be questioned.





SemperFiDawg said:


> If?



I refer you back to post #10;



HawgJawl said:


> What do you believe to be the significance of the miraculous revelation of the Ten Commandments to Moses on Mount Sinai?  Do believe that something "new" was revealed to man by God?


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 28, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> I refer you back to post #10;



May I refer you to Romans 1:18

“18 For God’s wrath is revealed from heaven against all godlessness and unrighteousness of people who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth, 19 since what can be known about God is evident among them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what He has made. As a result, people are without excuse.”

In light of this proclamation do YOU think the Big 10 were new revelations or simply a codification of what they inherently knew already.


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## HawgJawl (Jan 28, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> May I refer you to Romans 1:18
> 
> “18 For God’s wrath is revealed from heaven against all godlessness and unrighteousness of people who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth, 19 since what can be known about God is evident among them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what He has made. As a result, people are without excuse.”
> 
> In light of this proclamation do YOU think the Big 10 were new revelations or simply a codification of what they inherently knew already.



I think the Ten Commandments being given to Moses is presented as a new revelation.

I was wanting to know if that is also what you thought.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 30, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> I think the Ten Commandments being given to Moses is presented as a new revelation.
> 
> I was wanting to know if that is also what you thought.



I don't know.  Let me think on it.  Possibly a bit of both?


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