# Blade tested to failure.



## bbs383ci (Jun 27, 2014)

Ok guys I tested a little blade I made its 1075 from Kelly peoples I think, it's 3/16" stock , 1 1/16" wide at the blade, blade was aprox. 2 3/4" long oal 6.5".  To start with I cut up a piece of cardboard 16"x 6" cut it in little strips, once done I cut a piece of walnut flooring I used the knife as an axe and cut a chunk out of it then I took a hammer and used it on the knife to cut deep gouge in a treated 4x4 timber. It would still shave hair after all this the spine was showing wear from the hammer but the knife probably had a little differential heat treat. The cutting edge was fine. Then I cut a nail in half with it I was using saw horses as backing it would sink in the wood a little, the edge was slightly rolled I cut a second nail in the same spot and set it on a concrete block instead of wood to do the hammering this time it gouged the blade big time. Then I put it in a vice and bent it till it broke using a piece of pipe, I had the pipe over it almost to the vice, it did not bend much before it broke maybe 10-15 degrees. Here's the pics.


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## bbs383ci (Jun 27, 2014)

Here's the pieces


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## bbs383ci (Jun 27, 2014)

Here they are lol


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## bbs383ci (Jun 27, 2014)

Another


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## bbs383ci (Jun 27, 2014)

Again


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## bbs383ci (Jun 27, 2014)

Now,  what does all this mean?  I'm all ears or eyes


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## John I. Shore (Jun 29, 2014)

Means you wasted a perfectly good knife blade that could have served someone well for a lifetime, doing things to it that a knife was never designed to do in the first place.

After beating it with a hammer into a treated 4x4 and still cut would have been a good indicator that it would perform well as a using knife.

John I.


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## Hooked On Quack (Jun 29, 2014)

bbs383ci said:


> Now,  what does all this mean?  I'm all ears or eyes






You're not too bright ???


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## bbs383ci (Jun 29, 2014)

Hooked On Quack said:


> You're not too bright ???



I don't know if I would go straight to not bright, when someone with 50 years of knife building tells you to try testing a blade to failure then you try it. I am new to actual knife building and when I send a knife to some one I want it to be as good as it can be with the steel it's made of, now I believe the heat treat and temper was pretty much spot on. I said that because on a couple forums I have posted a knife I made and the first thing said is, did you test one before you g it ready for handle, so now I did and on both forums I haven't heard from the guys that told me to test it.


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## John I. Shore (Jun 29, 2014)

I know folks that have been making knives for close to 50 years, they are making the same junk today they were making 50 yrs ago, don't get confused about what a knife is and it's purpose.  

Beating on it with a hammer to cut something indicates the wrong use of the tool, you're making knives, not chisels.  Want to test it, cut something, use it don't abuse it.  

You wouldn't give a customer a refund/another knife if they treated one  in such a manner and claimed it failed.

Astetics, function, edge holding are among the highest qualities that successful makers have.  It's what customers look for and lay down their hard earned $'s for.

Remember, with a "differential HT" as one sharpens through the hard edge over the years they get into softer steel making the knife less capable of holding an edge as it did when it was made.  Many consider this a waste of good blade steel, where as if the entire blade is heat treated properly, even after years and years of sharpening, as the blade wears down, you will still be into hard steel that will continue to provide good edge holding abilities.

Many times on this very forum we have seen where folks have knives that belonged to their Father or Grandfather, it means a lot to them, you're making knives now that can be passed down through many generations with proper care and use.

You can test the quality of a blade without destroying it.

Was a good looking knife.

John I.


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## shakey gizzard (Jun 29, 2014)

Use a softer hammer!


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## bbs383ci (Jun 29, 2014)

Thanks John,  I will be making another like it and it will be the last one I test except for cutting test.   Yes you are right I wouldn't warranty a blade that was used like the one I just tested.  I guess it makes a difference when your working with a known steel. I know a lot of people don't care for simple carbon steels and prefer high grade stainless but I like being able to heat treat my own blades and till I get an electric kiln I will stick with carbon and tool steels.   

Needless to say the heat treat and temper process are working good and I am producing usable knives that will last.


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## Anvil Head (Jul 1, 2014)

You guys need to lighten up a little. He asked some important questions. 
John, I respect your work and do not intend to take issue as most of what you said is correct. Somebody did all the testing on the steels you use and made the info available. You use these numbers to do your work and have the quality equipment to make these work well for you. BB does not at this point in his journey.

However, taking things in context and proper perspective, he had asked if he was doing things right. His control points were very loose (no disrespect) on his HT procedure and using a steel with which he is not totally familiar. He has no way of knowing if he is getting it right. Rc testing even in a lab setting is only as good as the one testing. Very few have the expertise to test odd shaped and irregular surfaces with any accuracy (proven over and over). 
Now, taking a blade to that close to finish for that kind of testing was never recommended....that was his choice, probably not the best idea, but he gets that.
His desire is to make the best he can with what he has on hand and is working through the learning curve. He will know when he breaks the crest.

BB - the break is clean and the grain is very fine based on the pics you have posted. Normally on a break test you would allow some distance between the vise jaw and the pipe extension for some flex/bending. You are wearing safety glasses, Yes?!!
You may be able to drop your tempering heat by 15* - 25* to get a little tougher/harder edge. 
Did you edge quench the blade or do total emersion? The 1st pic indicates edge. Look closely at the break from edge to spine with magnification and let me know what you see up close. 
Remember - Don't introduce too many variables into a test. Accurate testing is all about reducing and eliminating as many variables as possible to get the most consistent results.


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## bbs383ci (Jul 1, 2014)

carl it was a total quench, there was some type of release agent from brownells put on the blade about have way to the spine and then quenched fully so im sure this coating had to do with the coarser grain towards the spine of the blade.  i cant remember what its called its to help the scale clean up be easier since at the moment i am doing everything by hand, it works to light rub with scoth bright takes the scale off.  anyways, the steel i m working with is 1075, 1084 and 1095.  in my understanding these all need to be brought to 1475-1500f and quenched in oil now the 1095 has to be quenched in parks or water and i prefer parks. 

yes i am always wearing safety glasses they are my everyday glasses lol.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 2, 2014)

bbs383ci said:


> I don't know if I would go straight to not bright, when someone with 50 years of knife building tells you to try testing a blade to failure then you try it. I am new to actual knife building and when I send a knife to some one I want it to be as good as it can be with the steel it's made of, now I believe the heat treat and temper was pretty much spot on. I said that because on a couple forums I have posted a knife I made and the first thing said is, did you test one before you g it ready for handle, so now I did and on both forums I haven't heard from the guys that told me to test it.



I'm in the same boat you are brother.  I'm just starting out and am trying to develop a reliable and sensible sequence for testing blades.  

In one aspect I can understand why testing for edge holding and edge toughness are important as well as overall blade strength.   What I don't understand is the extreme nature of some of the tests.  If it's for personal curiosity that's one thing, but other than that, why should I bother trying to cut nails or flexing a blade to 90 degrees.  It's not applicable to what the knife is designed for and in my humble opinion those are worthless tests.  

As far as I'm concerned a knife is a tool and any tool, be it a pry bar or a bulldozer will fail if it's used for a job it wasn't built to perform.  That being said I don't see the point of testing how well a knife performs as a hacksaw or a pry bar.

Just my two cents.


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## Anvil Head (Jul 4, 2014)

Simply put - Don't do the testing to satisfy you or anyone else, I do it to satisfy me.
Raise you two.......and add a nickel.


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## gobbleinwoods (Jul 4, 2014)

Okay I've never built a knife so take this for what it is worth.   I have built, repaired, and destroyed a few things in my years.   I always wanted to know the limits of what I built especially if others were going to get/use the end result.   Yep I have hit knives with hammers, yep I have tried or successfully used a knife to hack off a tree branch when that is all I had and the branch was a necessity, yep there are more so test until you are satisfied with the product you are producing.


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## Gobbler Down (Jul 6, 2014)

*Congratulations on kicking the hornet's nest!*

I am in the same boat as you with regards to seeking out the mysteries of steel.  Admirably...You are on the road to knife creation enlightenment while folks like me just stick our toes in the design pool.  I bring a great deal of happiness to others with my quirky designs and give most of it away....and have no desire to make a living via forging blades. I chose to be an Army Aviator for nearly three decades....knives are a needed and therapeutic diversion for me. And most importantly, a _hobby._

You, on the other hand, are showing the intuition and drive not unlike some of the proven and dedicated knife makers I know that produce and design for big $.  Your first few knives are far superior to a few folks that kick out mediocre product and have been doing it for quite a while.  The hard work and never ending need to improve are quite evident.

Continue to do what your heart and your hands tell you to do.  It's very evident in your past few knife posts that you not only have a great eye for symmetry of lines and marriage of materials, but also have the humble nature to ask for input.

Unfortunately free advice isn't always palatable or usable.  Pick what you need and graciously and quietly discard the rest.  Just my unsolicited input....

Thank you for taking the heat for those of us not brave enough to admit we "destroyed a perfectly good knife!" In a public forum!

But hey....some knives need to be taught a lesson.

As a side note is your last project for sale?

Respectfully,
Jim


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## knifemaker73 (Jul 7, 2014)

BB
I dont qualify for the 50 years i'm 9 years short and I agree with both Carl & John Test the blade for what its designeg for knives are not made for cutting nails or bolts the ABS came up with the bendinig test to test the toughness of damascus the testing that I do is looks feel & sharpnes If I use a steel that I am not famaiuar withI make one and use it in the shop for a year or so on everything 
Watch the 1095 and water quinch I have had them crack
  Find you a local guild member and talk to him he will help you outand mabe you will consider joining the Guild
Also my warenty is good for life on any thing except abuse
Knifemaker 73
Wayne


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## bbs383ci (Jul 7, 2014)

Jim,  thanks for the support, I am trying to produce the best blades I can with what I have at the moment, hopefully in the future I can get a kiln and do everything more precise and even do more exotic materials.  

all the knives I post are all ready sold, and at the moment I am not taking anymore orders since I am doing everything by hand till I get my grinder going, cant wait for that.

wayne,  I think this was the last one I will be breaking once im done with the 1075 metal I have some 1084 from aldo I will do a blade with cut testing and maybe dropping since that happens on occasion accidentally but I feel that after I done the cut testing with this last little blade it would have been a great little knife, I am also contemplating sending my knives off to be heat treated by some one that does it professionally.

Has anyone used pops for heat treating, since I am smaller knife maker its hard to get 20 or so blades ready for heat treat so it would be worth sending to peters or paul bos


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## Gobbler Down (Jul 8, 2014)

*I take it your main source of employment isn't in public relations!*



Hooked On Quack said:


> You're not too bright ???



I wouldn't apply for a concierge job if I were you.  Your comment is stinging and quite frankly just plain insulting.


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## bbs383ci (Jul 8, 2014)

jim,

I hope im not that thinned skinned, that what someone says over a public forum hurts my one little feeling I have left. lol. 

like water on a ducks back!!


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## Gobbler Down (Jul 8, 2014)

bbs383ci said:


> jim,
> 
> I hope im not that thinned skinned, that what someone says over a public forum hurts my one little feeling I have left. lol.
> 
> like water on a ducks back!!


...wholeheartedly agree but one would expect a modicum of decorum given the subject matter.  For an unsolicited "You're not too bright ???" [sic] missile to come in out of the blue brought out the shields,  once a soldier always a soldier......
Can't wait to see your next project.


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