# I wanna be Jeremiah Johnson...What and how much$?



## ASH556 (Nov 1, 2011)

It seems that a lot of the muzzleloading that happens is with the new in-line type, pyrodex powder pellets, and sabot bullets.  Basically, let's make it as much like a rifle as we can, but still call it a muzzleloader.

I'm not interested in that.

I want an old-school muzzle loader.  I want to shoot balls.  I want to pour the powder in or at least stuff a wrapped wad of powder in.  

I don't know much about it beyond that.  The images I have in my head are Jeremiah Johnson, The Patriot, Last of the Mohicans, etc.  

What do I need and how much will it cost?  

Thanks!


----------



## JustUs4All (Nov 1, 2011)

The minimum you will need: a rifle with a ramrod, powder, patches, Lubricant for the patches, (a patch knife if you want to cut your own patches as you load), and percussion caps or flint depending on the type of rifle.  

Other possibilities, powder horn (If a flintlock, one large for charging powder and one small for priming powder), short starter, bench rod, jags, worm, tool to remove nipple, tool to remove stock, possibles bag to keep it all in, and a tomahawk or two for backup.

Cost -- the sky is the limit.  You can have all you need in an inexpensive percussion side-lock for under $200 or you can spend thousands on a rifle and as much as you want on other items.  Above all, have fun.


----------



## FrontierGander (Nov 1, 2011)

Lyman Great Plains rifle in .54cal

Dont bother with the 50.  The 54 will do it all without any questions.


----------



## Bernard goldsmith (Nov 1, 2011)

Caliber is up to the shooter! 36-40-45-50-54-58-62-77 take your pick!! Some of these cal are hard to find acces. 50 cal at Friendship Indiana is the most used.


----------



## Nicodemus (Nov 1, 2011)

Josh Vibert said:


> It seems that a lot of the muzzleloading that happens is with the new in-line type, pyrodex powder pellets, and sabot bullets.  Basically, let's make it as much like a rifle as we can, but still call it a muzzleloader.
> 
> I'm not interested in that.
> 
> ...





With the three titles you named, you just covered over 100 years in American history, and 3 different type of weapons. From the 1750s through about the 1850s. Dealin` with a large caliber smoothbore musket, to flintlock longrifles, to plains style percussion rifles. 

What`s it gonna be?


----------



## ASH556 (Nov 1, 2011)

Nicodemus said:


> With the three titles you named, you just covered over 100 years in American history, and 3 different type of weapons. From the 1750s through about the 1850s. Dealin` with a large caliber smoothbore musket, to flintlock longrifles, to plains style percussion rifles.
> 
> What`s it gonna be?



Yeah, I kinda figured that.  That's why I came to ask you experts.  I dont' know enough to know what I don't know.


----------



## nkbigdog (Nov 1, 2011)

I wanna be Jeremiah Johnson....Well ifin you do you better know how to skin a Griz


----------



## Lorren68 (Nov 1, 2011)

FrontierGander said:


> Lyman Great Plains rifle in .54cal
> 
> Dont bother with the 50.  The 54 will do it all without any questions.



Whats wrong with the .50?  the deer I shot with mine using 80gr goex 3F and a 174gr PRB was just as dead as one shot with a bazooka.


----------



## Dr. Strangelove (Nov 1, 2011)

Just where is it I could find bear, beaver, and other critters worth cash money when skinned?


----------



## wilber85 (Nov 1, 2011)

I have been looking for a good flintlock for a while now myself.  I find they can range anywhere from a couple hundred to a couple thousand.  Track of the Wolf and Dixie Gun Works both have nice online selections as well as other supplies that would have been carried by the frontiersman.

The cheap guns are very plain, but they will shoot a ball accurately.  Look around and read reviews and see which is right for you.


----------



## Flintrock (Nov 1, 2011)

Since you are new to the game,I would suggest you stick with a caplock . Caplocks are a little more forgiving to shoot and  If and when you are comfortable with that then you can upgrade  to a flintlock. 
 Before you decide on a caliber you need to consider weather or not you may use it in a different state as different states have different minimum  calibers.Also consider  supply availbility.Most everything is for a 50 cal.    I use a 45 caliber and have not had any issues but If I get another I will probably jump up to a 54 caliber.


----------



## tv_racin_fan (Nov 1, 2011)

I have a cap lock rifle you can borrow for a bit to see if it is really want you want to do.


----------



## olcowman (Nov 1, 2011)

nkbigdog said:


> I wanna be Jeremiah Johnson....Well ifin you do you better know how to skin a Griz



And eat people's livers too! He was also known as "Liver Eating Johnson"... and it wasn't because he liked chicken livers neither.


----------



## Dr. Strangelove (Nov 2, 2011)

Great hunter, fine figure of a man, and that's all you need to know for now...


----------



## frankwright (Nov 3, 2011)

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/department.asp?dept=MUZZLELOADERS&dept2=RIFLE


----------



## mmarkey (Nov 3, 2011)

Josh, 
I just happen to have a brand new farm fresh 50 cal 42" swamped barrel with curley maple stock and engraved brass furniture, flintlock with raised and incised carving and silver inlay in the cheekpiece, that I finished building 2 days ago weighs in at 8 lbs 6 Oz with a 13 1/2" trigger pull. It's a real nice rifle. I usually send them to Track of the Wolf for consignment sale and they will add another $900 to the price.  I'll let you have it for $2500 TOW will sell it for $3379. I'll be happy to post some photos if you may be interested.
































Sorry for the photo quality, but I'm not a photographer. Hope you like em.


----------



## wilber85 (Nov 3, 2011)

mmarkey said:


> Josh,
> 
> I just happen to have a brand new farm fresh 50 cal 42" swamped barrel with curley maple stock and engraved brass furniture, flintlock with raised and incised carving and silver inlay in the cheekpiece, that I finished building 2 days ago weighs in at 8 lbs 6 Oz with a 13 1/2" trigger pull. It's a real nice rifle. I usually send them to Track of the Wolf for consignment sale and they will add another $900 to the price.  I'll let you have it for $2500 TOW will sell it for $3379. I'll be happy to post some photos if you may be interested.



Post pics anyways!


----------



## Etter2 (Nov 3, 2011)

I am looking into the same thing.  I'll probably get something simple like a hawken.  I can't believe what people call a muzzleloader anymore.  Flintlocks are the only way to go for me.  IMO if they're going to allow in-line rifles for the week before rifle, they might as well open it to all rifles.


----------



## fishfryer (Nov 3, 2011)

Lorren68 said:


> Whats wrong with the .50?  the deer I shot with mine using 80gr goex 3F and a 174gr PRB was just as dead as one shot with a bazooka.



It's not my place to be an intermediary,but if Frontier Gander lives in Colorado,he may very well need a 54 or bigger. A 50 caliber will kill anyhting in Georgia,but they have elk,muledeer,sheep,bears,and cougar. If he tried real hard he could shoot at a bison also. The reason that the so called Kentucky rifle,became the Mountain rifle,or as many now refer to it,the Plains rifle.


----------



## mmarkey (Nov 3, 2011)

wilber85 said:


> Post pics anyways!



I added the photos, check my earlier post it also has the description. Thanks


----------



## Desert Rat (Nov 3, 2011)

I know where there is a nice Thompson Center 45 cal Hawkins. Price tag is $285, but he'll talk to you if you have cash in your pocket. It's in Carrollton. It took my son and I 1 hour and 45 minutes on our motorcycles to get to Road Atlanta for Petit Le Mans, so it's a bit of a hike from Baselton. 

In addition to the Hawken, I spent $125 on powder, brass measure, balls, ball starter, cleaning supplies and a nice copper flask at Deercreek in Marietta. Locally I also picked up nipples, a tornado brush, mop at a gun shop and a shallow plastic bin at Wal-Mart for $5 for washing the barrel. I can submerge the barrel in it. Wal-Mart also has a Plano plastic gun case for $10 and it's made in the U.S.

Contrary to what some people will tell you, it's not that hard to find 45 cal rifle supplies. Minie ball 45 isn't common, but it's around. Maxi ball is a little more common.

As for flint-lock, I think they are a lot of fun. Even as much as I've been around muzzle loaders, I decided my first one was going to be percussion. I still have a lot to learn as is. I'll add a flintlock later.


----------



## ASH556 (Nov 4, 2011)

mmarkey said:


> I added the photos, check my earlier post it also has the description. Thanks



Man that's a gorgeous work of art and thank you for the offer, but I simply don't have that much money to spend (like maybe 1/10th that).  Even so, beautiful work!


----------



## Supercracker (Nov 4, 2011)

Get a nice TC along with the attendant gear and and go start shooting.


----------



## mmarkey (Nov 4, 2011)

Josh Vibert said:


> Man that's a gorgeous work of art and thank you for the offer, but I simply don't have that much money to spend (like maybe 1/10th that).  Even so, beautiful work!



No problem, I appreciate the comment. I've been building these for years, and still shooting my first, the others are all owned by lucky guys with deep pockets. But, I am about to start on a new build that I will keep for myself, and it's gonna have all the bells and whistles.


----------



## Dr. Strangelove (Nov 4, 2011)

fishfryer said:


> It's not my place to be an intermediary,but if Frontier Gander lives in Colorado,he may very well need a 54 or bigger. A 50 caliber will kill anyhting in Georgia,but they have elk,muledeer,sheep,bears,and cougar. If he tried real hard he could shoot at a bison also. The reason that the so called Kentucky rifle,became the Mountain rifle,or as many now refer to it,the Plains rifle.


 
Oh, he's gonna need a Hawken, .50 cal or better


----------



## Supercracker (Nov 4, 2011)

IIRC, a .50 round ball doe snot meet Colorado's requirements for projectile weight.


----------



## FrontierGander (Nov 4, 2011)

jeremiah johnson didnt use a flintlock. Late 1850s - early 1860s era muzzleloader is what you are looking for. Lyman Great Plains rifle would fill the gap.


----------



## Desert Rat (Nov 4, 2011)

Check the small town pawn shops for the gun that gets your attention.
If you don't like it later, sell it in one of the metro pawn shops. You might break even.


----------



## wilber85 (Nov 4, 2011)

mmarkey said:


> I added the photos, check my earlier post it also has the description. Thanks



Stunning rifle!  I wish I could afford something half that nice!


----------



## NCHillbilly (Nov 5, 2011)

If you want a Jeremiah Johnson gun, he toted a percussion Hawken. But: any production gun you buy that says "Hawken" on it looks nothing like a Hawken rifle. I have one of those "Hawkens," and it's a good rifle , but nowhere near close to the real thing. A custom Hawken will be expensive. If you want a fairly accurate-looking production gun for a few bills, the Lyman Great Plains Rifle or an old CVA Mountain Rifle Big Bore are about the closest to the real thing and both good quality. They don't make the Mountain Rifle any more, but you find a used one for sale at a good price sometimes. Most of them had good barrels. The Lyman GPR had some of the parts cast from an original Hawken, so it looks right, too. I would also go with a .54.


----------



## Sloppy_Snood (Nov 6, 2011)

Etter2 said:


> I can't believe what people call a muzzleloader anymore.  Flintlocks are the only way to go for me.  IMO if they're going to allow in-line rifles for the week before rifle, they might as well open it to all rifles.


Nonsense. An in-line muzzleloader cannot shoot anywhere near the distance as a modern cartridge rifle.  Your argument is ridiculous.  The "look" of the muzzleloader is the "difference" to many of you shooters that prefer the old school "flinch" locks and the such.  

_When the objective is a clean, humane harvest of an animal_, give me the increased precision of an in-line muzzleloader and heavy pure lead conicals.  The game deserves its precision.


----------



## FrontierGander (Nov 6, 2011)

My 50cal sidelock shoots just as good as my scoped inline.

454gr conical, 70gr pyrodex  rs, 100 yards.










I much prefer a .54cal when shooting patched round balls. It carried more energy, leaves a bigger hole and will put a bigger smile on your face every time you shoot it. Its just a better performing round ball out to 150 yards.


----------



## Flintrock (Nov 7, 2011)

Sloppy_Snood said:


> Nonsense. An in-line muzzleloader cannot shoot anywhere near the distance as a modern cartridge rifle.  Your argument is ridiculous.  The "look" of the muzzleloader is the "difference" to many of you shooters that prefer the old school "flinch" locks and the such.
> 
> _When the objective is a clean, humane harvest of an animal_, give me the increased precision of an in-line muzzleloader and heavy pure lead conicals.  The game deserves its precision.



Saying the "look " is the only difference between an inline and a flintlock is wrong. Thats like saying the" look "is the only difference between a recurve and a compound bow.
.
I think what Etter2 is saying that we have three separate seasons,bow,muzzleloader and rifle. Using an inline with a scope  leans more towards a regular rifle than it does a primitive weapon but by definition its a muzzleloader and given primitive weapon status  and made legal even though everyone knows a inline with a scope is not primitive.


----------



## mmarkey (Nov 7, 2011)

Flintrock said:


> Saying the "look " is the only difference between an inline and a flintlock is wrong. Thats like saying the" look "is the only difference between a recurve and a compound bow.
> .
> I think what Etter2 is saying that we have three separate seasons,bow,muzzleloader and rifle. Using an inline with a scope  leans more towards a regular rifle than it does a primitive weapon but by definition its a muzzleloader and given primitive weapon status  and made legal even though everyone knows a inline with a scope is not primitive.



I totally agree with you on this one. The only difference with inlines and modern rifles is the range. If you want to shoot short range use your shotgun with a rifled barrel about the same, I think. Inlines should not be considered primitive weapons nor should scoped cross bows be considered archery. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## Salt H2O Scout (Nov 13, 2011)

Flintrock said:


> Since you are new to the game,I would suggest you stick with a caplock . Caplocks are a little more forgiving to shoot and  If and when you are comfortable with that then you can upgrade  to a flintlock.
> Before you decide on a caliber you need to consider weather or not you may use it in a different state as different states have different minimum  calibers.Also consider  supply availbility.Most everything is for a 50 cal.    I use a 45 caliber and have not had any issues but If I get another I will probably jump up to a 54 caliber.


 I love the comment, "Upgrade to a flintlock." 
I started out with a TC Hawken .45 flint and finally graduated to a Davide Pendersolli .50 long rifle.


----------



## Salt H2O Scout (Nov 13, 2011)

mmarkey said:


> I totally agree with you on this one. The only difference with inlines and modern rifles is the range. If you want to shoot short range use your shotgun with a rifled barrel about the same, I think. Inlines should not be considered primitive weapons nor should scoped cross bows be considered archery. Just my 2 cents.


I could not agree more. There is no way you can use the words "in line" and "primitive" in the same paragraph.


----------



## Flintrock (Nov 13, 2011)

Salt H2O Scout said:


> I love the comment, "Upgrade to a flintlock."
> I started out with a TC Hawken .45 flint and finally graduated to a Davide Pendersolli .50 long rifle.



Good Eye. That's how I feel . I was wondering if anyone would notice the comment.


----------



## tv_racin_fan (Nov 13, 2011)

Salt H2O Scout said:


> I could not agree more. There is no way you can use the words "in line" and "primitive" in the same paragraph.


 
Wait.. so if I just happen to have an inline made in 1830 it aint primitive enough? 

Turns out the first cap lock rifle was an inline according to my research. So that would mean that cap lock rifles aint primitive?

Sure am glad I upgradededed...


----------



## Oldstick (Nov 14, 2011)

Josh Vibert said:


> Man that's a gorgeous work of art and thank you for the offer, but I simply don't have that much money to spend (like maybe 1/10th that).  Even so, beautiful work!



I did just ruin my keyboard with drool, though...


----------



## Desert Rat (Nov 14, 2011)

Does Lewis & Clark's air rifle fit into this somewhere? Lewis did a lot of intimidation under the guise of "marksmanship display" with that pump-up gun.


----------



## GrizzWolf (Nov 17, 2011)

Hey... I have been a serious fur-trade re-enactor and hunter for over 35 years. I have a Master's in gunsmithing and I have studied archeology, fur trade history and anthropology in Laramie, Wyoming and in Montana as well as many other historical sights in America. If you don't want to spend a couple grand or more for a Hawken then you probably want to look at the Hawkens and mountain rifle made by Pedersoli. In my research and experience those guns look just a little more authentic than the CVAs or Lyman Great Plains rifles. I believe a Pedersoli Hawken can be found in the $900.00 dollar range. Now, having said that, I use a kit built Lyman Great Plains rifle in my re-enactments and I have hunted whitetails with a .58 cal. CVA Big Bore Mountain rifle I have owned since 1979 or so. It will put every ball into the eye of a life sized deer target at 100 yards and will DROP a deer at 200 yards easily. The .54 cal. mountain rifle will do the same. To those who don't believe a muzzleloader can be accurate you need to internalize the FACT that there were recorded kills by army snipers during the Civil War at OVER 800 yards. The big bore Hawkens, etc., were also used by buffalo hunters to drop buffalo, one by one, from several hundred yards away. Those guns had to be accurate enough for the hunter to drop the Bison, one shot, one kill, from a far enough distance to not scare off the herd. That is historical fact. So, in summation, the CVA Big Bore Mountain rifle is an ok choice for a period representative piece for the average person with the added advantage being that it is a good, durable and accurate hunter. If you are a little more concerned with period authenticity then go with the Lyman Great Plains rifle. If you are even MORE concerned with period looks then find a Pedersoli Hawken or Mountain rifle. Beyond that, if you want to be VERY historically correct you should do some research and probably buy a custom Hawken from some of the folks who specialize in such things. As far as caliber... I own and shoot with many muzzleloaders and in my long experience as a shooter and hunter the .54 is the most versatile of the CURRENT offerings. The. 58 is FUN to shoot and it will DROP deer like a ton of bricks. The .58 is hard to find now so the. 54 is a good compromise between the .50 and. 54. I like the .54 more than the .50 because the .54 seems to have a little more knockdown power at longer ranges and seems to be just as accurate. The key to getting the best accuracy from any traditional sidelock or flintlock is finding the right powder / patch / ball combination for THAT particular gun. For example, my .58 cal. CVA Mountain rifle shoots best with 75 grains of 3F black powder and a .570 round ball... whereas my CVA Hawken in .54 cal. needs 80 grains of 3F... don't believe the guys who tell you that you MUST use 125 or 150 grains of black powder. I get my best accuracy with ALL my front stuffers at between 70 and 95 grains of powder. If you overload your muzzleloader you are wasting powder and adversely effecting your accuracy. If you don't believe that just shoot your gun over snow or a white sheet. You will see all the unburnt powder your gun kicks out. Anyway... these are my opinions and I'm sticking to 'em! If anyone needs more info feel free to PM me. Have a great day!


----------



## Desert Rat (Nov 17, 2011)

Good stuff Grizz.
Now back to playing with my .45, since you have me curious how far I can reach with it.


----------



## tv_racin_fan (Nov 17, 2011)

You can reach a dern long way with it. Will it have the energy left to do anything is the real question. And that depends as much on the projectile as anything.

The rule of thumb from the old days for PRB is that the projectile will have the percentage of muzzle energy at 100 yards that corresponds to caliber. IE a 45 cal will have 45% of muzzle energy at 100 and a 54 will have 54% of muzzle energy at 100. Looking at my Lyman black powder book explains why a "Kentucky" rifle had such a long barrel, longer the barrel the more powder you can burn the more velocity the more energy. BC of a PRB is under .100, I think it is listed as .80 for a 490 ball.

I believe they were shooting to 1000 yards with the 45/70 using BP loads in competition back in the day (still do to my knowledge).


----------



## Desert Rat (Nov 17, 2011)

I've seen some of the long guns get way out there. TC says 110 grains of FFg is the max for my gun. I'm not sure a 28" barrel can burn that much powder without spitting it out. Grizz seems to back me up on that. Since I'm only killin' cardboard, I'm not overly concerned about the energy at longer ranges, just accuracy.
I'm finally at the point with this gun that I feel I can use a tighter patch. I've been using .010 wadding with 60 grains FFg and have no doubt I'm getting some blow-by. Tomorrow I'm going to try .015 with 60 grains of FFg and see where I'm at. TC says I shoul get 1720 FPS and 841 ft/lbs at the muzzle. I had no idea a used b/p gun could be such a hassle to clean up and make right.
Ya learn summpin new every day. On the upside, I'm having fun learning what this gun wants.
I can't say I'm grooming the Jeremiah Johnson look. I use an M-16 ammo case for the round ball with one grenade holder carrying the ball starter and the other has the powder flask. Hey, it works and I'm used to the big green web belt. I use a .30 cal pouch for my patches in one section and powder measure and capper in the other section. Keeps everything right at hand.

Update: just for kicks yesterday I took a shot at a 100 yard target with 80 grains of FFg and using the same aim-point I do at 25 yards with 60 grains. The round hit the target on center, low three inches.


----------

