# Exorcism in Gwinnett



## Six million dollar ham (Jun 17, 2009)

> Like a scene out of Law & Order, a Gwinnett County woman is in jail today after authorities believe she attempted an exorcism on her child.
> 
> The Gwinnett Daily Post reports that Sandra Alfred, 46, of Lilburn, was arrested Friday for false imprisonment and cruelty to children for using handcuffs to restrain her son. *According to the warrants, she also did not give her son food for three days during the exorcism attempt*, and may have taken the child to an unnamed church for the exorcism.
> 
> ...



Is this how it's done, Lowjack?  I remember you say you take part in exorcisms.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 17, 2009)

Yeh Ham....that's exactly how it's done.  Of course it is.  Don't you know we just LOVE to starve our kids and handcuff them.  That's what Jesus would have done isn't it?


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## Six million dollar ham (Jun 17, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Yeh Ham....that's exactly how it's done.  Of course it is.  Don't you know we just LOVE to starve our kids and handcuff them.  That's what Jesus would have done isn't it?



You tell me.  It happened at a church, it would appear.  I don't go to those things.


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## pnome (Jun 17, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Yeh Ham....that's exactly how it's done.  Of course it is.  Don't you know we just LOVE to starve our kids and handcuff them.  That's what Jesus would have done isn't it?




Well, if they are possessed by a demon you might want to handcuff em' though right?   Wouldn't want to let the demon control the kid, might hurt him.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 17, 2009)

Six million dollar ham said:


> You tell me.  It happened at a church, it would appear.  I don't go to those things.



Like I said...you're exactly right.  That's how we roll.

I see it happen all the time at the church I attend.  We handcuff all of our kids if they don't act right.  It just makes them easier to deal with.


BTW....if it were truly an evil spirit, I'm not sure handcuffs would do much good.  I'd prefer to follow this example from Mark, chapter 5.  



> _"When Jesus got out of the boat, a man with an evil spirit came from the tombs to meet him. 3 This man lived in the tombs, and no one could bind him anymore, not even with a chain. 4 For he had often been chained hand and foot, but he tore the chains apart and broke the irons on his feet. No one was strong enough to subdue him. 5 Night and day among the tombs and in the hills he would cry out and cut himself with stones.
> 
> 6 When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. 7 He shouted at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? In God's name don't torture me!" 8 For Jesus had said to him, "Come out of this man, you evil spirit!" _


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## Six million dollar ham (Jun 17, 2009)

Yeah, that makes more sense, legally speaking.  

So by your answers I take it you don't perform or endorse exorcisms.  Is that accurate?


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## Huntinfool (Jun 17, 2009)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Yeah, that makes more sense, legally speaking.
> 
> So by your answers I take it you don't perform or endorse exorcisms.  Is that accurate?



I've never encountered anyone who needed one.  My dad has....and has commanded the demon to leave the person in the name of Jesus Christ....and it did. 

If I were to encounter someone possessed by demonic forces, yeh, I'd take care of business...without handcuffs and they could eat as much as they wanted.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jun 17, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> I've never encountered anyone who needed one.  My dad has....and has commanded the demon to leave the person in the name of Jesus Christ....and it did.
> 
> If I were to encounter someone possessed by demonic forces, yeh, I'd take care of business...without handcuffs and they could eat as much as they wanted.



Fair enough.  Thanks for the answer.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 17, 2009)

No problem.  Do you believe that what I posted is true?


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## Lowjack (Jun 17, 2009)

Do you really want to find out Mr. Ham ?
Remember that all authority in The heavenlies and on earth Have being given to Yeshua, we can deliver people from teh dark forces and we can also command them, do you really want to go there ?
Read What St. Paul said, about a demon God sent daily to slap him around ,to curve his ego.
Don't mock or tempt The Lord Your God, whether you want to accept Him or not he is your God and he owns you.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 17, 2009)

Lowjack....I know this is off topic.  But it's always been debated as to what the "thorn" was.  I assume that's what you're talking about.  

What leads you to believe it was a demon?


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## Six million dollar ham (Jun 17, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> No problem.  Do you believe that what I posted is true?



Yes, I am convinced that you believe in demonic possession and human intervention to cure it.  Or is it actually human intervention?  Would it be God channeled through a human in such an exercise (the exorcism, that is)?

Serious questions....the church I went to as a kid never mentioned this type stuff.  So I wouldn't know where to begin if I believed and encountered such.


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## ambush80 (Jun 17, 2009)

In a cage match between bat wing and chicken foot versus holy water and crucifix, which wins?


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## Six million dollar ham (Jun 17, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Do you really want to find out Mr. Ham ?
> Remember that all authority in The heavenlies and on earth Have being given to Yeshua, we can deliver people from teh dark forces and we can also command them, do you really want to go there ?
> Read What St. Paul said, about a demon God sent daily to slap him around ,to curve his ego.
> Don't mock or tempt The Lord Your God, whether you want to accept Him or not he is your God and he owns you.



Hey, I'll leave the specifics alone.  I think I may have my answer already.

One related finer point though...when you exorcise, is it an intervention by you or does God move through you?


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## Huntinfool (Jun 17, 2009)

It is not the power of humans....


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## Huntinfool (Jun 17, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> In a cage match between bat wing and chicken foot versus holy water and crucifix, which wins?



Holy water (preferably in a Super Soaker) and crucifix every time.  Have you never seen Dusk till Dawn?  Duh!


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## ambush80 (Jun 17, 2009)

I wonder if Atheists ever get possessed by demons and need exorcism.


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## ambush80 (Jun 17, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Holy water (preferably in a Super Soaker) and crucifix every time.  Have you never seen Dusk till Dawn?  Duh!




Those were obviously Christian vampires.  For voodoo vampires you need chicken foot.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 17, 2009)

Christian vampires...hmmmm...I ain't too sure about that one man.  They didn't exhibit any fruit of the Spirit and I clearly didn't discern that they were followers of Christ.


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## pnome (Jun 17, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> I wonder if Atheists ever get possessed by demons and need exorcism.



LOL.  Silly.  We ARE demons, remember?


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## ambush80 (Jun 17, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Christian vampires...hmmmm...I ain't too sure about that one man.  They didn't exhibit any fruit of the Spirit and I clearly didn't discern that they were followers of Christ.



They were good Christians before they were possessed.

I was making light.  My point being: You have to believe chicken foot will cure you for it to work.  Same with holy water holy water.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 17, 2009)

and PNOME gets the prize!  Ding Ding Ding!



Serious answer though (and this is just my opinion based on what I read)...I'm not sure Satan messes too much with those who have already rejected Christ.  Why would you screw with somebody who's on your side?


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## ambush80 (Jun 17, 2009)

pnome said:


> LOL.  Silly.  We ARE demons, remember?



Demon is a little strong.  I prefer "Lap Dog of Satan".


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## Huntinfool (Jun 17, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> I was making light.  My point being: You have to believe chicken foot will cure you for it to work.  Same with holy water holy water.



The demon possessed person is not healing themselves though.  They are possessed.  They are controlled by a force that is anit-Christ.  The examples I've heard of, the person did not WANT to be touched, healed or have anything to do with anyone who was invoking the name of Christ....and they were released in spite of it.

This is not a placibo issue.


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## Psychohillbilly (Jun 17, 2009)

In the name of the father the son and holy ghost....Weirdos is all I can comment. Bet ya'll watch oh freak show on A&E too.


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## ambush80 (Jun 17, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> and PNOME gets the prize!  Ding Ding Ding!
> 
> 
> 
> Serious answer though (and this is just my opinion based on what I read)...I'm not sure Satan messes too much with those who have already rejected Christ.  Why would you screw with somebody who's on your side?



So Satan won't mess with you if you do his bidding, but God will allow Satan to mess with you even if you follow Him?  Great....


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## ambush80 (Jun 17, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> The demon possessed person is not healing themselves though.  They are possessed.  They are controlled by a force that is anit-Christ.  The examples I've heard of, the person did not WANT to be touched, healed or have anything to do with anyone who was invoking the name of Christ....and they were released in spite of it.
> 
> This is not a placibo issue.



How can you be sure that they aren't doing it to themselves?

I dunno, man...ghosties and spookies?

Placebos work miracles, sometimes.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 17, 2009)

Psychohillbilly said:


> In the name of the father the son and holy ghost....Weirdos is all I can comment. Bet ya'll watch oh freak show on A&E too.



Mock if you want.  My dad has done it and it worked and he's been present a couple of other times.

He's a Methodist evangelist, so he's all over the country preaching.  

No one beat any of them up.  No one bound them with chains.  It was an annointing with oil and a simple prayer that went something like your mock above...and it worked.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 17, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> So Satan won't mess with you if you do his bidding, but God will allow Satan to mess with you even if you follow Him?  Great....



See the entire book of Job.  

I didn't say he WON'T mess with you and I honestly have no proof of what I said, it's just my inclination.  I simply said he's less inclined to really come after you...you're already on his side.  Why rock the boat?


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## Huntinfool (Jun 17, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> How can you be sure that they aren't doing it to themselves?



In the instance when my father encountered the man who was possessed, the guy looked right at him and said "get away from me preacher".

Pretty sure he didn't want it to be done.  I'm sure you'll ask "how do you know he was possessed?"  I don't.  I wasn't there.  All I know is what my Pop told me and he was pretty shaken up.


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## Madman (Jun 17, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> Demon is a little strong.  I prefer "Lap Dog of Satan".



That would be a cat.


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## ambush80 (Jun 17, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> In the instance when my father encountered the man who was possessed, the guy looked right at him and said "get away from me preacher".
> 
> Pretty sure he didn't want it to be done.  I'm sure you'll ask "how do you know he was possessed?"  I don't.  I wasn't there.  All I know is what my Pop told me and he was pretty shaken up.



"I don't know." Now that's an honest answer.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 17, 2009)

Contrary to popular belief, Christians don't have all the answers to every single question.  We just happen to know the guy who does.

What I DO know is that when "whatever" was causing this guy to exhibit some very strange behavior (he was a youth minister and he was cursing uncontrolably, screaming out loud and doing some very vile things....at a campmeeting service) left him IMMEDIATELY and he relaxed and nearly fell asleep the INSTANT he was annointed and my dad commanded "demons" to leave him in the name of Jesus.  

I DON'T know.  I'm just going on the external evidence.  I suppose it could all have been an act.  But I seriously doubt it based on the account I got from my dad.

You gotta understand, my dad is not the kind of guy you see on TV.  He's not calling people up to the alter and slapping them on the forehead or "breathing" on them so that they pass out or something.  He's a Methodist minister for 28 years who became a Methodist evangelist and preaches all over the country.  He does not "do" demon possessions.  This all just happened right where he happened to be one night.


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## ambush80 (Jun 17, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Contrary to popular belief, Christians don't have all the answers to every single question.  We just happen to know the guy who does.
> 
> What I DO know is that when "whatever" was causing this guy to exhibit some very strange behavior (he was a youth minister and he was cursing uncontrolably, screaming out loud and doing some very vile things....at a campmeeting service) left him IMMEDIATELY and he relaxed and nearly fell asleep the INSTANT he was annointed and my dad commanded "demons" to leave him in the name of Jesus.
> 
> I DON'T know.  I'm just going on the external evidence.  I suppose it could all have been an act.  But I seriously doubt it based on the account I got from my dad.



Not an act, a delusion; a psychotic episode.  I don't rule out demonic possession, I just haven't seen enough evidence to point to that ever being the definitive cause.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 17, 2009)

Just curious....what kind of evidence would get to that "definitive cause" scenario?  That'd be a tough one.

In any case, psychotic episode or not, it appears it was either a release from demon possession or instantaneous and miraculous healing, correct?


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## Psychohillbilly (Jun 17, 2009)

I dont think you have any idea what youre preaching and you werent mocked. Wow


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## Huntinfool (Jun 17, 2009)

No preaching going on here.  Just telling a story.  Having a discussion.  Thanks for stopping by.


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## Lowjack (Jun 17, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Lowjack....I know this is off topic.  But it's always been debated as to what the "thorn" was.  I assume that's what you're talking about.
> 
> What leads you to believe it was a demon?


I read the word and believe what it says;
2 Cor. 12:7-10 -- "And because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given unto me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, in order to keep me from exalting myself. Concerning this I entreated the Lord three times that it might depart from me
I don't think that needs speculating to what it was, besides there has being others who have experienced this.
Of The Hundreds of exorcisms my uncle and I have participated in , only 2 have being very small children, one I think I related what happened, the second very very close to me and My wife and I saw the actual Black entity come away from the child and go up through the ceiling, I don't want to talk too much about it ,because of the situation behind this Child.But Children are not possessed that easily, but they can be influenced by the Dark side.
Likewise many have being brought to us for exorcism which we immediately perceived they were no possessed but mentally ill.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 17, 2009)

So do you believe that Paul was "demon possessed"?  Being possessed and buffetted are different.

That's why I asked the question.


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## Madman (Jun 17, 2009)

> I see it happen all the time at the church I attend. We handcuff all of our kids if they don't act right. It just makes them easier to deal with.



Huntin,

We found that handcuffs don't work.  They don't close tight enough and the little demons escape.  We use a verger, he carries the traditional staff with a big wooden knob on the end.  Nothing like a good crack on the head to slow the Old Deluder down.

We get that from Genesis.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 17, 2009)

Oh we don't do it because of the demons....we just do it so they'll behave!!!!!!!


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## Dixie Dawg (Jun 17, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> I've never encountered anyone who needed one.  My dad has....and has commanded the demon to leave the person in the name of Jesus Christ....and it did.



Did he smack him on the forehead with the palm of his hand?  I've seen them do that on Benny Hinn and it was miraculous!!!!


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## ToLog (Jun 17, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Did he smack him on the forehead with the palm of his hand?  I've seen them do that on Benny Hinn and it was miraculous!!!!




Yes!! but if the camera angle wasn't just exactly right, all was lost!  re-shoot, and start again.


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## Lowjack (Jun 17, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> So do you believe that Paul was "demon possessed"?  Being possessed and buffetted are different.
> 
> That's why I asked the question.



He was Troubled by a demon sent by God, Apparently he had an ego issue as the Power of The Holy Spirit Increased within Him , he began to think himself better than the real apostles which walked with Yeshua.
At One time he called the Apostles False apostles and had words with Peter and condemned Peter for eating with the Jews, he was an interesting character, in many ways you find himself struggling with contradictions such as with Peter, he accused Peter of not Mingling with gentiles, yet he himself said he would become as a gentile to save the gentiles and a Jew to save the Jews"So one can sit back and learn from his struggles within himself, struggles we all go through.
I personally can understand the gentile and the Jewish aspect of Paul.
But no He wasn't possessed, because where the Holy spirit dwells ,no demon can touch you ,unless allowed by God.
Paul's anointing grew in such a way, they would lay the sick by where he walked so that his shadow would touch them an they got healed, so God had to keep him in line or I should say his flesh in line, by having an invisible entity slap him.
Martin Luther had similar encounters.
Even I had them and My Wife, but in our case it was because we were all out teaching against demonic religions and perhaps we were not as prepared spiritually as we thought, to deal with personal and physical attacks, but we learned quickly and we had the backing of many people of God.

When God works Miracles through you, it is very hard not to think you are special, i went through that, when My wife and I experienced the resurrection of My Youngest son at age of 16 months. From that moment we were filled with such faith, that a few weeks later we went into a hospital to see an Aunt and we prayed for Very ill and terminal patients and they were healed instantly and from that moment we were on fire for the Lord.
Being able to rebuke a tornado in a bay area heading for you and seeing with your own eyes the tornado stop and take a left turn away from you, to pray for 2 other dead persons and resurrecting them all of that can build an ego, IAM guilty of that, but the lord brought me down from that cloud last year when My 18 year old grandson died in car wreck and I just melted inside and couldn't even attempt to pray to bring him back, yes the Lord is good and Loving but he can also be severe in teaching you lesson, which says , 'IAm The Lord The Only One, I kill and I make alive'', there is no other God besides me, Iam The resurrection and the live and he who Believes in me although Dead will live", so I know I will see him again standing on his feet, and I just humble myself before Him and know I have no powers except what he gives me and allows me to do or say.
Some in here are bucking for a severe spanking like the one I got, mocking and making fun of the heavenly powers and playing stupid jokes IS WORSE THAN HAVING AN EGO TRIP.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jun 17, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Being able to rebuke a tornado in a bay area heading for you and seeing with your own eyes the tornado stop and take a left turn away from you, to pray for 2 other dead persons and resurrecting them all of that can build an ego, IAM guilty of that, but the lord brought me down from that cloud last year when My 18 year old grandson died in car wreck and I just melted inside and couldn't even attempt to pray to bring him back, yes the Lord is good and Loving but he can also be severe in teaching you lesson, which says , 'IAm The Lord The Only One, I kill and I make alive'', there is no other God besides me, Iam The resurrection and the live and he who Believes in me although Dead will live", so I know I will see him again standing on his feet, and I just humble myself before Him and know I have no powers except what he gives me and allows me to do or say.
> Some in here are bucking for a severe spanking like the one I got, mocking and making fun of the heavenly powers and playing stupid jokes IS WORSE THAN HAVING AN EGO TRIP.



I am truly sorry for your loss of your grandson, Lowjack.  I cannot imagine the pain you must have gone through. 

But do you really believe God killed him to prove a point to you? At least, that's what I'm getting from your post here...   If that's true, what kind of point did it make to your grandson?

People get sick, people get well... people die, people are healed... good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people, and there is NO rhyme nor reason for it, it just IS.  Anything can be attributed to or blamed on God, depending on what you get out of it.  And if it can't be explained or doesn't make sense, well then it's just 'God's will' and we are not to question it.  

Some may be comforted by thinking that everything that happens, good or bad, is because God had his hand in it.  I prefer to think that it just happened, and that's the way that it is... because to think of our creator as some egomaniac puppeteer is just too much to wrap a thought around.

And I'd really love to see some evidence that you raised the dead... that's an incredible claim!!!


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## Lowjack (Jun 17, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I am truly sorry for your loss of your grandson, Lowjack.  I cannot imagine the pain you must have gone through.
> 
> But do you really believe God killed him to prove a point to you? At least, that's what I'm getting from your post here...   If that's true, what kind of point did it make to your grandson?
> 
> ...



That can't be explain in the internet it is still too fresh to go over all the details, but I know where he is and I know what he was, and very few young men were as spiritual as he was.
The Bible says "the Righteous are cut off to spared them from Grief (Evil)".
This body is meaningless to the one who created us, he can make it die ,bring it back in minutes or hours or 1 million years from now.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jun 17, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> The Bible says "the Righteous are cut off to spared them from Grief (Evil)".



So life is a punishment... not a blessing. 
Kind of makes the argument against abortion a little weak... but that's for another thread.

Again, I am really sorry about your grandson, my thoughts and hugs to you and yours....


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## Lowjack (Jun 17, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> So life is a punishment... not a blessing.
> Kind of makes the argument against abortion a little weak... but that's for another thread.
> 
> Again, I am really sorry about your grandson, my thoughts and hugs to you and yours....



Life is an opportunity to prepared for the true life , which is in the spiritual realm not this realm.
No Punishment in death for those who believe, either.
I really cannot understand your logic.
And thanks.


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## formula1 (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re:*

Lowjack:

Read some of your comments here and they were interesting.  Let's just say I enjoyed learning a few more things about your experience with God.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jun 17, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Life is an opportunity to prepared for the true life , which is in the spiritual realm not this realm.
> No Punishment in death for those who believe, either.
> I really cannot understand your logic.




I really don't understand yours, either.
Live a righteous life, and your reward is death at a young age?
Not sure of the motivation there... but ok...


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## WTM45 (Jun 17, 2009)

I believe in demonic posession.
Around twenty seven or so years ago, that spawn of satan fullback ran off his right guard and literally hammered me for four quarters.  He spoke words that made no sense, had eyes on fire and spit and gnashed his teeth against his mouthpiece all the time using me to clean off his spikes.
I'd hit him as hard as I could, but he would only laugh while I heard the bells of hades ringing in my helmet.
Yes, I believe in demonic posession.


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## Diogenes (Jun 18, 2009)

Ambush80 stated: “I wonder if Atheists ever get possessed by demons and need exorcism.”

I called mine a divorce.


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## Rip Steele (Jun 18, 2009)

This whole thread has me lost


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## mtnwoman (Jun 18, 2009)

Obviously demons are sent to torture and torment...just take a look at this thread... Who else would bother with Christians? except those who are sent and have nothing better to do than to try to torture and torment. Even you's demons have to admit you're obsessed with trying to tick off the Christians...a daily goal to get a rise..


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## mtnwoman (Jun 18, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> I believe in demonic posession.
> Around twenty seven or so years ago, that spawn of satan fullback ran off his right guard and literally hammered me for four quarters.  He spoke words that made no sense, had eyes on fire and spit and gnashed his teeth against his mouthpiece all the time using me to clean off his spikes.
> I'd hit him as hard as I could, but he would only laugh while I heard the bells of hades ringing in my helmet.
> Yes, I believe in demonic posession.



Been there...came in the form of a sexual preditor for me though..hope you can wiggle lose like I did.


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## ambush80 (Jun 18, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> Ambush80 stated: “I wonder if Atheists ever get possessed by demons and need exorcism.”
> 
> I called mine a divorce.



Did you cast them out with chicken foot or holy water?


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## ambush80 (Jun 18, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> Obviously demons are sent to torture and torment...just take a look at this thread... Who else would bother with Christians? except those who are sent and have nothing better to do than to try to torture and torment. Even you's demons have to admit you're obsessed with trying to tick off the Christians...a daily goal to get a rise..



All I see is conversation and exchanging of ideas.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jun 18, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> All I see is conversation and exchanging of ideas.



Hush ambush80!  Do not try to spoil her fun as a victim.  I've noticed a lot of the delicate flowers who identify as Christian here have settled into that role.  They seem to enjoy it, so try not to mess that up if you can help it.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 18, 2009)

Oh, HAM!  There are a few folks who identify themselves as "other than Christian" in here that need to be added to the list of those who cannot handle a critical look at the ideas that they post.


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## pnome (Jun 18, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> Even you's demons have to admit you're obsessed with trying to tick off the Christians...a daily goal to get a rise..



Nope, trying to help you.  A daily goal to get you to THINK.


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## CCROLAND (Jun 18, 2009)

*For...*

SO MANY PEOPLE WHO DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD AND THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND DON'T WANT THAT IN THERE LIVES, THERE ARE A LOT ON HERE TALKING ABOUT IT. ITS FUNNY HOW ALL THE ATHEISTS AND NON-BELIEVERS GET INTO TROUBLE OR LOOSE A FAMILY MEMBER WILL REFER BACK TO GOD! OR WHEN THEY GET MAD ARE QUICK TO ASK GOD TO Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- SOMETHING OR SOMEONE. HE'S NOT REAL TO YOU REMEMBER!


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## Six million dollar ham (Jun 18, 2009)

ccroland said:


> so many people who don't believe in god and the holy spirit, and don't want that in there lives, there are a lot on here talking about it. Its funny how all the atheists and non-believers get into trouble or loose a family member will refer back to god! Or when they get mad are quick to ask god to edited to remove profanity ----edited to remove profanity ----edited to remove profanity ----edited to remove profanity ---- something or someone. He's not real to you remember!



I'll keep that in mind, ccroland.  Do you actually know people like that, who have turned to god when they used to be atheists? Or do you just figure that a lot of people do?  And if they really do, why is that funny?  It seems to me you'd find it heartwarming or reassuring somehow.  

As an aside, I find it funny that it tends to be a christian that has the "edited to remove profanity" filter slapped into their posts.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 19, 2009)

pnome said:


> Nope, trying to help you.  A daily goal to get you to THINK.



To think about what? What are you trying to help me with?


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## pnome (Jun 19, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> To think about what? What are you trying to help me with?




Oh nevermind.


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## pnome (Jun 19, 2009)

CCROLAND said:


> SO MANY PEOPLE WHO DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD AND THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND DON'T WANT THAT IN THERE LIVES, THERE ARE A LOT ON HERE TALKING ABOUT IT. ITS FUNNY HOW ALL THE ATHEISTS AND NON-BELIEVERS GET INTO TROUBLE OR LOOSE A FAMILY MEMBER WILL REFER BACK TO GOD! OR WHEN THEY GET MAD ARE QUICK TO ASK GOD TO Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- SOMETHING OR SOMEONE. HE'S NOT REAL TO YOU REMEMBER!



I KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN.  IT'S WEIRD,  I STILL SAY "BLESS YOU" WHEN PEOPLE SNEEZE TOO.   

OUR MINDS WANTING TO BELIEVE SOMETHING IS TRUE, DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE.


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## CCROLAND (Jun 19, 2009)

*I...*

Don't feel i used profanity in my post. What i said is used in the bible. And yes i know athiests who say "god bless you" when someone sneezes.why? I've heard athiests tell someone that their "thoughts and prayers are with them". Prayers to whom, there is no god remember!  I feel it is funny that people who don't believe there is a god calls out to him in there time of need or there time of anger. If there is no god, then why call on him? Anyways i don't know why they edited my thread, i wasn't using profanity cause in the bible the word d&*n was used to describe gods punishment. Hey, we are still going to be here whenever something tramatic happens in your live, and we will *pray* for you!!!


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## pnome (Jun 19, 2009)

CCROLAND said:


> I feel it is funny that people who don't believe there is a god calls out to him in there time of need or there time of anger.




God is a very comforting thought.   I think what few believers understand is it takes effort to not believe.  Religion can be very seductive.

P.S. It's an autofilter.  Don't feel bad, they've even filtered out Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- (AKA That place where people who don't worship Jesus are supposed to go)


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## Israel (Jun 19, 2009)

pnome said:


> God is a very comforting thought.   I think what few believers understand is it takes effort to not believe.  Religion can be very seductive.
> 
> P.S. It's an autofilter.  Don't feel bad, they've even filtered out Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- (AKA That place where people who don't worship Jesus are supposed to go)



You are right, God is a great comfort.


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## formula1 (Jun 19, 2009)

*Re:*



pnome said:


> God is a very comforting thought.   I think what few believers understand is it takes effort to not believe.  Religion can be very seductive.
> 
> 
> > It takes much more effort to understand Faith than you might imagine. I at least have been on both sides of the argument and comparitively speaking, the Faith walk I now espouse is much more challenging.
> ...


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## CCROLAND (Jun 19, 2009)

*pnome..*

*(Religion can be very seductive.)*

This ia very true! What athiests don't know is religion is a man made thing. Athiesim is a religion! Just like muslims,buddists,soem christians. Religion to me is not a real good thing. I am a believer and follower of Jesus Christ. I don't feel I am better than anyone else, Ive just found the answers to some of my problems. Don't believe the hype on the news channels, most christians like people who are not like minded. A lot of my family doesn't believe like me or they are very religious, that don't stop me from loving them. I'm sure you are a great person, and  we would probab;y get along just fine, but do I have to approve of your live style, doesn't sound like you approve of mine!!


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## Dixie Dawg (Jun 19, 2009)

formula1 said:


> It takes much more effort to understand Faith than you might imagine. I at least have been on both sides of the argument and comparitively speaking, the Faith walk I now espouse is much more challenging.



Understanding wouldn't require faith.  If it were understood, what would you need faith for?


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## Dixie Dawg (Jun 19, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> The Bible says "the Righteous are cut off to spared them from Grief (Evil)".





Was thinking about this last night and again, see the irony in it.

As I am now, if I were to die tomorrow, the christians would say that was my punishment for my unbelief and my claim that jesus is not god.

However, if I were a christian, and I died tomorrow, the sentiment would be different, it would be something along the lines of what you said... and probably similar to that Billy Joel song about only the good die young.

That's what I find amusing about this thought process or belief... you just twist events to whatever suits your faith.   Same situation, different circumstances, means different 'explanation'.  Very convenient!


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## donjon25 (Jun 19, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Was thinking about this last night and again, see the irony in it.
> 
> As I am now, if I were to die tomorrow, the christians would say that was my punishment for my unbelief and my claim that jesus is not god.
> 
> ...



Aren't we all suppose to die?  Young, old, good, bad...we all die.  Death is not a punishment, death is the result of living.  Whether one lived a good life or a bad life doesn't matter....we will all still die.  

The important question is:  Where will our soul go?  Ironically enough though, "that" choice is made in "this" life.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jun 19, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> The important question is:  Where will our soul go?  Ironically enough though, "that" choice is made in "this" life.



But that's just it... you don't know.  And neither do I.  And neither does anyone else.  Heck, you can't even prove that such a thing as a 'soul' exists.  All of that is only based on your faith.

So, to me, the most important thing is to make choices that make THIS life 'good'.  How can I worry about something that I can't even be sure exists??!    There is no guarantee or evidence of an 'afterlife' at all.


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## pnome (Jun 19, 2009)

CCROLAND said:


> What athiests don't know is religion is a man made thing.



Oh, we know that.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 19, 2009)

pnome said:


> Oh nevermind.



Why won't you answer the question? You said you're trying to help me...I'm just curious as to how or what it is you're trying to help me with.

Or maybe you don't even know what you're trying to help me with..it just sounded demeaning and you decided to say it. Which is it?


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## mtnwoman (Jun 19, 2009)

pnome said:


> I KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN.  IT'S WEIRD,  I STILL SAY "BLESS YOU" WHEN PEOPLE SNEEZE TOO.
> 
> OUR MINDS WANTING TO BELIEVE SOMETHING IS TRUE, DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE.



I believe you have a good sized ego..perhaps you think you can bless someone by saying that.....and yeah your mind wanting  to believe it's true, doesn't make it true. See how that works?


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## formula1 (Jun 19, 2009)

*Re:*



Dixie Dawg said:


> Understanding wouldn't require faith.  If it were understood, what would you need faith for?



The application of faith brings understanding, then the application of that understanding brings more faith. And so on!  So what I said was true, yet you don't even know it.

I speak of what I know. Others if they choose can bear witness to it as well.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 19, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Oh, HAM!  There are a few folks who identify themselves as "other than Christian" in here that need to be added to the list of those who cannot handle a critical look at the ideas that they post.



I know dat's right.  Don'tcha know Christians aren't allowed to get offended, ok for everyone else though.

One minute I'm a delicate flower and the next I'm a hysterical shotgun totin' grandma with a bone to pick with a neighbor. I just can't get it right can I?


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## pnome (Jun 20, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> Why won't you answer the question? You said you're trying to help me...I'm just curious as to how or what it is you're trying to help me with.
> 
> Or maybe you don't even know what you're trying to help me with..it just sounded demeaning and you decided to say it. Which is it?



Not trying to demean you in any way.  I think you have been brainwashed into believing lies and I want to help you see the truth.

That's all.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 20, 2009)

pnome said:


> Not trying to demean you in any way.  I think you have been brainwashed into believing lies and I want to help you see the truth.
> 
> That's all.



And I think you have been brainwashed into believing lies, and I want to help you see the truth.

Maybe we can work together and listen to what each other has to say without all the wise cracks. No one learns anything when someone talks down to them...and that's a  fact.  It's not what you say, it's how you say it, and I'm just trying to help you with that...no one will listen to someone who tries to belittle them constantly for what they believe.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jun 20, 2009)

formula1 said:


> The application of faith brings understanding, then the application of that understanding brings more faith. And so on!  So what I said was true, yet you don't even know it.
> 
> I speak of what I know. Others if they choose can bear witness to it as well.





You speak of what you have faith in based on emotional experience.

The existance of God is not fact.  The existance of an afterlife is not fact.  And the existance of a soul is not fact.  They are beliefs, because they cannot be proven.


For the record, I do believe in a creator and I do believe we have 'souls', simply because I have no other explanation for those things.  The afterlife, well I'm not so sure about that.....


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## Lowjack (Jun 20, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Was thinking about this last night and again, see the irony in it.
> 
> As I am now, if I were to die tomorrow, the christians would say that was my punishment for my unbelief and my claim that jesus is not god.
> 
> ...


You are near the truth there DD, fact is both believers and non believers will die because of sin, but the believer has an assurance where he is going to end up, not sure unbelievers realize that there is a not to nice of place for them.
Learn from nature, there is good and there is bad, there is negative poles and positive poles, there light and there is darkness, following that line of thought ,then we have to assume there death and there is life, there is flesh and there is Spirit, so there must be a heaven and the must be a he!! as well.


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## formula1 (Jun 20, 2009)

*Re:*



Dixie Dawg said:


> You speak of what you have faith in based on emotional experience.
> 
> The existance of God is not fact.  The existance of an afterlife is not fact.  And the existance of a soul is not fact.  They are beliefs, because they cannot be proven.
> 
> ...



You know nothing...and I mean nothing... of my experience! Emotional...I laugh...in fact I roll on the floor on that one!

The existance of God, the afterlife, the soul, etc. is not fact to you! They are beliefs to you because you have not put faith in operation in your life. If you had, you would know it.

The Law of Faith  is Truth and Life and it has been proven to me over and over. It is well understood(though not fully) and comprehended and just as sure as the law of gravity or the laws of aerodynamics.

Now if you believe in a Creator and you believe in the soul, then why have you refused to allow faith to operate in you?

I know why, because Jesus Christ is the door, and you refuse to walk through that door.  It can't possibly be true in your mind, can it!   

And thus, you are where you are and I am where I am.  And that is how it will stay until God touches you and says...Come! 

May God reach down from the heavens and touch you!


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## Dixie Dawg (Jun 20, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> You are near the truth there DD, fact is both believers and non believers will die because of sin, but the believer has an assurance where he is going to end up, not sure unbelievers realize that there is a not to nice of place for them.
> Learn from nature, there is good and there is bad, there is negative poles and positive poles, there light and there is darkness, following that line of thought ,then we have to assume there death and there is life, there is flesh and there is Spirit, so there must be a heaven and the must be a he!! as well.



The last two are the only things that require assumption. The others you listed can be proven.  I don't have to assume there is a heaven and Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----.  Life and death can be it, nothing more, nothing less.


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## dawg2 (Jun 20, 2009)

pnome said:


> LOL.  Silly.  We ARE demons, remember?



Actually no, you are not.  You are on the fence and not committed, kind of like "Switzerland."


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## hummerpoo (Jun 20, 2009)

pnome said:


> OUR MINDS WANTING TO BELIEVE SOMETHING IS TRUE, DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE.



Kinda feel like I'm butting in here; just felt compelled to say that it was the realization that "What I believe has no effect upon what is True" that lead me to faith in God.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 20, 2009)

hummerpoo said:


> Kinda feel like I'm butting in here; just felt compelled to say that it was the realization that "What I believe has no effect upon what is True" that lead me to faith in God.



Great point...just what I was trying to say.

Just because everyone believed the earth was flat and there no life beyond the edge, didn't make it so.


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## WTM45 (Jun 20, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> Great point...just what I was trying to say.
> 
> Just because everyone believed the earth was flat and there no life beyond the edge, didn't make it so.



And some folks who did not believe the superstition proved it to be untrue.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jun 20, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> And some folks who did not believe the superstition proved it to be untrue.


----------



## tell sackett (Jun 20, 2009)

too bad they didn't just read Is. chapter 40


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## WTM45 (Jun 20, 2009)

tell sackett said:


> too bad they didn't just read Is. chapter 40




In 1511, when Magellan left Spain for the circumnavigation of the globe, the Jews were banished from Spain.
They took their Tanakh, containing the Nevi'im with them.
The Targum in Aramaic was not part of Spanish study or reading.
The books were burned.  Unavailable.
The Reina Velera was not until 1569.
The leaders of the Catholic Church controlled the readings and the interpretations of the Vulgate.  Look at the word "round" and at it's original language.  It does not equate to "spherical" in English.

Your simplistic answer is not so simple when viewed historically and factually.

http://www.lehman.edu/ciberletras/v06/tofino.html


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## tell sackett (Jun 20, 2009)

#1- Thank you so much for  imparting your Solomon-like wisdom to such a simplistic one is I ( that's sarcasm in case it was too simple for you). #2- You mean nobody ever read the Old Testament before 1511 #3- Strong's concordance: circle-chuwg- a circle,curcuit,compass(#2329). #4 Has anybody told you lately that God loves you & your soul is precious to Him


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## WTM45 (Jun 20, 2009)

tell sackett said:


> You mean nobody ever read the Old Testament before 1511



I was pretty clear in mentioning who did the reading, who did the interpretation for the people and who held the known manuscripts.

Early Greeks were pretty sure the earth was either round like a frisbee, or was spherical.
It was not much of a suprise when Magellan's crew completed the run.  Honestly, it was not common belief the earth was flat in the European world.  That is a commonly used misconception.

My apology if you felt I was insulting to you.  I was addressing the simplistic answer which is given by many regarding the subject.


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## dawg2 (Jun 20, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> In 1511, when Magellan left Spain for the circumnavigation of the globe, the Jews were banished from Spain.
> They took their Tanakh, containing the Nevi'im with them.
> The Targum in Aramaic was not part of Spanish study or reading.
> The books were burned.  Unavailable.
> ...



KEEP THIS IN MIND: so few people were ABLE to read (ath that time and after) and many that COULD did  so poorly, that they had difficulty understanding exactly what they were reading, that the church was the official "reader" because they had the people who were LITERATE.


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## Lowjack (Jun 20, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> In 1511, when Magellan left Spain for the circumnavigation of the globe, the Jews were banished from Spain.
> They took their Tanakh, containing the Nevi'im with them.
> The Targum in Aramaic was not part of Spanish study or reading.
> The books were burned.  Unavailable.
> ...



I thought the first one in Spanish was Ferrara Bible (printed 1553) ???
I'll Throw my copy away then ,LOL


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## WTM45 (Jun 20, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> KEEP THIS IN MIND: so few people were ABLE to read (ath that time and after) and many that COULD did  so poorly, that they had difficulty understanding exactly what they were reading, that the church was the official "reader" because they had the people who were LITERATE.




Correct.  What a better example of outright control over a populace, huh?
Then the seperations of church and state (religion vs. government) debates.

Dark Ages.
Reformation.

No, according to some religious belief systems, the world is getting worse all the time, not better.


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## WTM45 (Jun 20, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> I thought the first one in Spanish was Ferrara Bible (printed 1553) ???
> I'll Throw my copy away then ,LOL



I was waiting for you, my friend!
I would defer any and all Ladino interpretations of the Hebrew to you and your knowledge.
Yours must be a valuable copy, I must guess!  Do not throw it away!


That still does not cover the 1511 departure of Magellan, correct?


----------



## pnome (Jun 20, 2009)

tell sackett said:


> too bad they didn't just read Is. chapter 40




You are referring to this? 



> <sup id="en-KJV-18443" class="versenum" value="22">22</sup>It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:



Circles are flat.  Nice try though.


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## GONoob (Jun 20, 2009)

I went to a friends church retreat and holy moly scared the crap out of me. People were going nuts, throwing up everywhere, and talking in tongues. I drove 13 hrs back home at 2am.


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## pnome (Jun 20, 2009)

hummerpoo said:


> Kinda feel like I'm butting in here; just felt compelled to say that it was the realization that "What I believe has no effect upon what is True" that lead me to faith in God.



You've going to have to explain this one.   

I don't see the connection.


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## WTM45 (Jun 20, 2009)

GONoob said:


> I went to a friends church retreat and holy moly scared the crap out of me. People were going nuts, throwing up everywhere, and talking in tongues. I drove 13 hrs back home at 2am.



What do you think was the cause of such activity?


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## tell sackett (Jun 20, 2009)

WTM45: My apologies also. That was a bad attempt at humor in a wrong spirit,although the last part is truly heartfelt.


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## tell sackett (Jun 20, 2009)

Pnome: they're also round. Nice try though


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## mtnwoman (Jun 20, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> And some folks who did not believe the superstition proved it to be untrue.



Faith in their belief came before the positive proof though. They had no proof before they went anyway you look at it.


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## WTM45 (Jun 20, 2009)

They did not have faith in anything.  They had a desire to disprove a superstition, a superstition that was not held by many people of that day and time.  Their common sense told them of the globe's shape based on positioning of the galaxies in the areas of the globe where men had stood.  They saw the moon as spherical, and they saw the effects of eclipses.  They had scientific proofs that did not require faith, no matter how we look at it.

Faith is a belief not requiring proof.  The desire to circumnavigate the globe was purely scientific exploration to prove it was possible.


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## WTM45 (Jun 20, 2009)

tell sackett said:


> WTM45: My apologies also. That was a bad attempt at humor in a wrong spirit,although the last part is truly heartfelt.



No apology necessary.  I am not offended at all.  I did see the humor, and did get a chuckle!


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## GONoob (Jun 21, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> What do you think was the cause of such activity?



I was told it was the demon coming out. I went to a presbyterian church while growing up and never encountered anything like it- even when people were being 'saved'. I understand their are differences and methods in both practices, but why such a huge difference when they both believe and worship the one God.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jun 21, 2009)

GONoob said:


> I was told it was the demon coming out. I went to a presbyterian church while growing up and never encountered anything like it- even when people were being 'saved'. I understand their are differences and methods in both practices, but why such a huge difference when they both believe and worship the one God.



Do you think demons afflict only people of that particular faith?  If not, do you think, as a Presbyterian, that you may have some demons in you still?  Or do you think this demon business is just crap?  If so, do you think there's anything else they may just be making up?


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## Six million dollar ham (Jun 21, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> Faith in their belief came before the positive proof though. They had no proof before they went anyway you look at it.



Well yeah.  You don't secure funding and sail to the other side of the world by accident.


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## WTM45 (Jun 21, 2009)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Or do you think this demon business is just crap?  If so, do you think there's anything else they may just be making up?



Now we're cookin' with gas!


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## mtnwoman (Jun 21, 2009)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Do you think demons afflict only people of that particular faith?  If not, do you think, as a Presbyterian, that you may have some demons in you still?  Or do you think this demon business is just crap?  If so, do you think there's anything else they may just be making up?



I think there are demons right outside my door... As a matter of fact I know there is at least one within 100 ft of my porch. And yeah, he is making something up, or in other words is a liar, just like his master.

I don't believe I have any demons in me now, I used to host the demon of excess alchohol, it's gone. It nips at my heels though.....you have to die to temptation because temptation never dies...it still comes around to try to trip and trap me up. That's what makes it real to me. 

Ya know I never had the demon of robbing banks, but some people can, and never drink alcohol. There are many different demons.

I know you didn't ask me personally but I thought it would be ok to add my 2cents.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 21, 2009)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Well yeah.  You don't secure funding and sail to the other side of the world by accident.



Now that's an answer I can live with...thanks!!


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## WTM45 (Jun 21, 2009)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Well yeah.  You don't secure funding and sail to the other side of the world by accident.




Maybe on the very first exploration a little trust and belief was shown.  But when the queen saw all the booty the explorers took by force, she had NO PROBLEM opening the checkbook for some more!


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## hummerpoo (Jun 21, 2009)

pnome said:


> You've going to have to explain this one.
> 
> I don't see the connection.



Truth, as I see it, is an absolute.  My own fallibility, which I came to see, started me looking outside myself.  When I looked at those things which I had believed in, or perhaps I should say accepted; when I looked at them skepticly, that being science, philosophy, ecomonics, the normal stuff which we are told is true, all I found was more weakness.  Absolutes which became building blocks when they were proven wrong and their place taken by the new absolute.

What anybody believes has no effect on that which is adsolutely true.  To draw on your statement a little, it's even difficult to know if an idea is something we believe or just something we want to believe.

I am more incapable than most at explaining things, but it was the world around me that did it.  It is truely a wonderous thing.  And this life which we are given is a wonderous thing.  When ask "What d'ya know" I often reply "In the beginning God".  That's because I am so awe struck by that Truth that the rest seems petty.

Hope that somehow that helps to explain what I mean when I say that what I believe has no effect upon the Truth.

Oh, why I believe in God?  Two reasons: There is no other answer, and His Truth which is not provided by man but by the Holy Spirit.


----------



## Israel (Jun 21, 2009)

hummerpoo said:


> Truth, as I see it, is an absolute.  My own fallibility, which I came to see, started me looking outside myself.  When I looked at those things which I had believed in, or perhaps I should say accepted; when I looked at them skepticly, that being science, philosophy, ecomonics, the normal stuff which we are told is true, all I found was more weakness.  Absolutes which became building blocks when they were proven wrong and their place taken by the new absolute.
> 
> What anybody believes has no effect on that which is adsolutely true.  To draw on your statement a little, it's even difficult to know if an idea is something we believe or just something we want to believe.
> 
> ...



Your answer may be far more eloquent than you know.
For if looked at...even in light of all the "scientific" truths and knowledge accumulated thus far, there is one thing even that cannot refute in this vast universe. 
Life is at best rare, and quite possibly unique to this rock hurtling through space on what every calculation and experience verifies, a quite determined path.
Wondrous is a certainly appropriate description, and a sense of wonder is what every child must maintain to stave off what is the most devious lie and attitude of all, presumption. 
And the error of taking life for granted.
Thank you saint, for reminding me.


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## pnome (Jun 21, 2009)

hummerpoo said:


> Truth, as I see it, is an absolute.



You may be surprised to find out I agree with you here.  There are absolute truths.  However, one can never be 100% certain what that truth is.



> Absolutes which became building blocks when they were proven wrong and their place taken by the new absolute.



So you've substituted in an "absolute" that cannot possibly be proven wrong?  That is not a strength.  It's a weakness.  If your theory is not falsifiable in some way, it's no theory at all.  

Tell me, is there anything, any evidence, any set of conditions that would prove to you that god does not exist?  If your answer here is "no" then you are simply brainwashed.



> What anybody believes has no effect on that which is adsolutely true.  To draw on your statement a little, it's even difficult to know if an idea is something we believe or just something we want to believe.



You'll get no argument from me here.  So, how do we determine what is true and what is false?  



> Oh, why I believe in God?  Two reasons: There is no other answer, and His Truth which is not provided by man but by the Holy Spirit.



Don't you think you are jumping to conclusions here.  So, whenever no other answer is immediately apparent, then it must be "God"?  You worship "The God of the Gaps"  A god that is constantly shrinking.

But back to my question, how do you determine true from false?


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## earl (Jun 21, 2009)

For the ''faithful''. Do you know the basis to the world is round ? In very simplistic words, the masts of ships were observed getting lower in the water as the ship moved away and taller as the ships got closer. Observation , a little thought ,and common sense.No faith.


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## Israel (Jun 21, 2009)

earl said:


> For the ''faithful''. Do you know the basis to the world is round ? In very simplistic words, the masts of ships were observed getting lower in the water as the ship moved away and taller as the ships got closer. Observation , a little thought ,and common sense.No faith.



Maybe no faith to observe it.
Maybe some faith to test it...
As for the God of the gaps, even the Higgs boson just gonna raise more questions than it answers.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 21, 2009)

earl said:


> For the ''faithful''. Do you know the basis to the world is round ? In very simplistic words, the masts of ships were observed getting lower in the water as the ship moved away and taller as the ships got closer. Observation , a little thought ,and common sense.No faith.



Yeah well they didn't know that til they did it.
So if that's all it took, then why was the world deemed flat? Common sense shoulda told them it wasn't, why did they still think that? It wasn't like it was me that ever believed it was.
My point is, it took faith on someone's part to prove it, whether it be the captain, the financer, the ship builder, the sailors....proof wasn't in hand before they sailed.
That's all I'm sayin'

There's a lot of obvious things here on earth, well at least obvious to me that there is a higher power, and to me commen sense tells us that, too....forty trillion things working together to make the earth be what it is, and that was by accident....commen sense tells me that ain't so.


----------



## mtnwoman (Jun 21, 2009)

faithâ€‚â€‚/feÉªÎ¸/  Show Spelled Pronunciation [feyth]  Show IPA 
–noun 1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.  
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.


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## WTM45 (Jun 21, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> faithâ€‚â€‚/feÉªÎ¸/  Show Spelled Pronunciation [feyth]  Show IPA
> –noun 1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
> 2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.



Faith is not required whenever the scientific method of testing is available.  Loading up the ship and making way is the beginning of the experiment.  The hypothesis was actual, the tools were available and the experiment was begun and completed.

Faith is the opposite of science and reason.  Belief without having facts or proof.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 21, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Faith is not required whenever the scientific method of testing is available.  Loading up the ship and making way is the beginning of the experiment.  The hypothesis was actual, the tools were available and the experiment was begun and completed.
> 
> Faith is the opposite of science and reason.  Belief without having facts or proof.



ok.

So they didn't have to prove to anyone left behind that the earth wasn't flat. Once they sailed everyone(left behind) believed instantly without proof that the earth was round....ok I'll buy that.

I still say someone had faith at some point, without facts or proof that the earth was round. They didn't always have those tools, they didn't always know to use the stars, if they did, why would they have ever thought for a moment that the earth was flat?


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## WTM45 (Jun 21, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> ok.
> 
> So they didn't have to prove to anyone left behind that the earth wasn't flat. Once they sailed everyone(left behind) believed instantly without proof that the earth was round....ok I'll buy that.
> 
> I still say someone had faith at some point, without facts or proof that the earth was round. They didn't always have those tools, they didn't always know to use the stars, if they did, why would they have ever thought for a moment that the earth was flat?



There remain some people who believe in superstition.
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/

Just like those who believe in demonic posession.........


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## earl (Jun 21, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> Yeah well they didn't know that til they did it.
> So if that's all it took, then why was the world deemed flat? Common sense shoulda told them it wasn't, why did they still think that? It wasn't like it was me that ever believed it was.
> My point is, it took faith on someone's part to prove it, whether it be the captain, the financer, the ship builder, the sailors....proof wasn't in hand before they sailed.
> That's all I'm sayin'
> ...






The proof was there . [observation of the masts]
Yes they did know it. Again just a matter of observation.
Ain't it odd that when man lets his mind overcome superstition with facts [those pesky observations again] ,what great things he can accomplish ? It's also odd that the curious [scientists ,atheists,et al ] are the ones usually saying ,''prove it''. You can say '' I believe because God said it'' all you want ,but can you prove it ?
Saying forty trillion things working together  is the way it has always been or saying the genisis is the reason ,both take an equal amount of faith.


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## WTM45 (Jun 21, 2009)

earl said:


> Saying forty trillion things working together  is the way it has always been or saying the genisis is the reason ,both take an equal amount of faith.



The difference is one is able to be researched and investigated scientifically.  The other is pure faith and belief in religious superstition and teaching.

Astronauts proved the Moon was not made of cheese.
Did that mean they had faith it was not before they got there?


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## earl (Jun 21, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> ok.
> 
> So they didn't have to prove to anyone left behind that the earth wasn't flat. Once they sailed everyone(left behind) believed instantly without proof that the earth was round....ok I'll buy that.
> 
> I still say someone had faith at some point, without facts or proof that the earth was round. They didn't always have those tools, they didn't always know to use the stars, if they did, why would they have ever thought for a moment that the earth was flat?





If you dare ,read a little history on the study  of stars. It basically started with pagans  and evolved into a basis for their gods. By the time of the great explorers, using stars for navigation was old school knowledge. All thanks to pagans ,druids,and their gods. And yes , I am positive they had faith in them. Keep in mind that this was wayyyyyyy before Christ's time.  I am not sure what the pagan's  stance was on the shape of the earth. I would think that from their observations of the circular and elliptical movements of the heavens that they had no doubts as to the earth's shape. It's the only way ,logically, that what they observed was the truth. These observations were also wayyyy before circumnavigation was proven.


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## earl (Jun 21, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> The difference is one is able to be researched and investigated scientifically.  The other is pure faith and belief in religious superstition and teaching.
> 
> Astronauts proved the Moon was not made of cheese.
> Did that mean they had faith it was not before they got there?





Not sure if I agree. Big Bang vs. God ? Both can be researched and investigated scientifically. At some point you run out of solid proof for both. I'm just saying it takes faith in both camps.

By the way . The moon is made of green cheese and all that space stuff you see is done in a Hollywood . Didn't you see the documentary. I think it was called Capricorn or something.


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## WTM45 (Jun 21, 2009)

earl said:


> Not sure if I agree. Big Bang vs. God ? Both can be researched and investigated scientifically. At some point you run out of solid proof for both. I'm just saying it takes faith in both camps.
> 
> By the way . The moon is made of green cheese and all that space stuff you see is done in a Hollywood . Didn't you see the documentary. I think it was called Capricorn or something.





How is the existance of a deity investigated using the scientific method?


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## earl (Jun 21, 2009)

Ancient writings ,Scientific findings ,etc.  
Example would be chariot parts found in the Red Sea. 
The point where the faith begins is when you believe the authenticity of those documents and findings. 
Can the Big Bang be proved scientifically 100 % ?
I don't put 100 % faith in science or dietys .


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## mtnwoman (Jun 21, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Faith is not required whenever the scientific method of testing is available.



Chemotherapy works, that has been proven. Does it always work, nope, that has been proven, too.
I can trust that it has worked and have proof that it does and that it doesn't. When being used on me, it isn't trust in it that it will work because it has been proven to work,  it is my faith in it that it may work for me.  Not my trust in the scientific part, but my faith (not only in God) but my faith in the fact that it has worked. And that's all I'll have is faith that it will work, I don't have proof that it will and I only have trust to the point that it has worked. It is in faith that I would take chemotherapy....believing in something that has yet to be proven to work on me...faith.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 21, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> How is the existance of a deity investigated using the scientific method?



How is the nonexistance of a deity investigated using the scientific method?

Men didn't always think they could fly to the moon. They didn't always know for a fact that they could sail around the globe and get back, even if they did, it took faith for them to launch out into the unknown, nothing could have proven for a fact that they would've returned safely. They only had faith that they would return, no proof, yes trusting in the knowledge that they had, but no proof. They still didn't know what was out there. Maybe they knew the earth wasn't flat, maybe a bad example I used, but they did NOT have proof that they would sail around the earth and back until they proved they could do it.
They chanced it, chancing requires faith, not knowledge, not even truth, and does require some trust in themselves.


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## hummerpoo (Jun 21, 2009)

pnome said:


> If your theory is not falsifiable in some way, it's no theory at all.
> 
> HEY! You got it.
> Sorry.
> ...


I really wish I could answer that question for you, but it's one that only you can answer.  I can tell you that it's not easy, even painful sometimes, but it's worth it.  I can also tell you that there are a lot of people hoping you find it.  That's not a cop out, it's not a theory, it's just true.


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## WTM45 (Jun 21, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> They chanced it, chancing requires faith, not knowledge, not even truth, and does require some trust in themselves.



Games of chance require faith?  Truth does not make a difference in outcome, as you say it is not required?
Huh?

Risk is mitigated with verification through testing, obtaining results and verified statistical analysis.

Sorry, but you have dug a very deep hole here.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 21, 2009)

Games of chance? where did that come from?
Me digging a hole?


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## mtnwoman (Jun 21, 2009)

So you have no faith at all? is that what you're saying W?

You've scientifically figured everything out so there is no luck of the draw, no faith needed, no chance taken, everything is mapped and a positive outcome can only occur and you know that before you do anything at all?
Wow.

Someone who doesn't need faith in anything, it's all precalculated/positive/unfailing....nothing takes faith.
Alrighty then.
I can't see it, but ok, I'll take your word for it.
This is getting old.


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## WTM45 (Jun 21, 2009)

What's old is the confusion some have between faith, reason, trust and belief.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 21, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> What's old is the confusion some have between faith, reason, trust and belief.



My question is, do you have faith in anything? and if so what?


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## WTM45 (Jun 21, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> My question is, do you have faith in anything? and if so what?



Faith is unnecessary in my life.  Some people create that need because they can not accept what is unanswerable or they have a fear of the unknown.
What you see is what you get.  I can deal with the facts without any guesses or speculation.
There is no guarantee of anything outside the realm of proof and evidence.  I make the best of every day.

Happiness can be found without voodoo or dreaming.  Choosing to go through life doing your very best, along with remembering to treat others fairly is plenty.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 21, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Faith is unnecessary in my life.  Some people create that need because they can not accept what is unanswerable or they have a fear of the unknown.
> What you see is what you get.  I can deal with the facts without any guesses or speculation.
> There is no guarantee of anything outside the realm of proof and evidence.  I make the best of every day.
> 
> Happiness can be found without voodoo or dreaming.  Choosing to go through life doing your very best, along with remembering to treat others fairly is plenty.



Well I do all that, too. But I still have faith in certain things along the way, that's the only way I'm able to give folks the benefit of the doubt. Course that's based only on things I've experienced from the past...because some folks/things I have had trust in let me down, even with all the information I had to work with.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 21, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Faith is unnecessary in my life.  Some people create that need because they can not accept what is unanswerable or they have a fear of the unknown.
> What you see is what you get.  I can deal with the facts without any guesses or speculation.
> There is no guarantee of anything outside the realm of proof and evidence.  I make the best of every day.
> 
> Happiness can be found without voodoo or dreaming.  Choosing to go through life doing your very best, along with remembering to treat others fairly is plenty.




I'll just bet, actually, I know that you have faith in some things.  You might not identify it as faith, but it meets the definition.


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## WTM45 (Jun 21, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I'll just bet, actually, I know that you have faith in some things.  You might not identify it as faith, but it meets the definition.



Not mine.
My definition of faith is a purely individual belief in something spiritual or supernatural which can not be explained by evidence or proof.

People in general use the word faith all too often when other words are more appropriate.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 22, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Not mine.
> My definition of faith is a purely individual belief in something spiritual or supernatural which can not be explained by evidence or proof.
> 
> People in general use the word faith all too often when other words are more appropriate.



Like what?

The word faith is not only about religion....faith is something that is hoped for but not confirmed. Trust is something that is confirmed....belief could be used instead of faith but that is also connected to religion....so what words?

I have faith in you....I don't know you very well, so I only have faith that I can trust you. I believe I can trust you...but I don't know for a fact, absolute proven fact with data to back up my belief that I can trust you.


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## earl (Jun 22, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> Like what?
> 
> The word faith is not only about religion....faith is something that is hoped for but not confirmed. Trust is something that is confirmed....belief could be used instead of faith but that is also connected to religion....so what words?
> 
> I have faith in you....I don't know you very well, so I only have faith that I can trust you. I believe I can trust you...but I don't know for a fact, absolute proven fact with data to back up my belief that I can trust you.





Placing  trust ,faith or belief in some one or some thing you don't know is seldom a good thing.


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## WTM45 (Jun 22, 2009)

Please use the word any way you wish.

Why have faith or trust in anything or anyone you can not actually verify?  Is it too much work to check it out?  Is there a fear of finding a negative outcome or bad result?

Those who are careful with where they place their trust do their homework.  It prevents the Madoffs of the world from taking every sucker they meet.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 23, 2009)

earl said:


> Placing  trust ,faith or belief in some one or some thing you don't know is seldom a good thing.



You're kiddin'?

I was just using that as an example....

But if you want to get into that, shall we? I go to work at a new place. I have faith in the person that hired me and put me with someone to train me and faith that they would train me correctly. While I'm being trained I have the faith and belief that the person is training me correctly, just based on the info that I have. THEN if I find out that I was trained correctly then I have become to trust the person that hired me and the person that trained me....I didn't have trust in them in the beginning, because there was no positive proof as far as I was concerned.

I have been trained incorrectly on jobs, so I only put my faith in someone and then trust after I know if I'm trained correctly...

Sorry you brought that up?

And yes I'm paranoid too, I don't trust, believe or have faith in anyone, ever.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 23, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Please use the word any way you wish. *Thank you so much *
> 
> Why have faith or trust in anything or anyone you can not actually verify? *Because I'm not  paranoid of everyone I meet, you gotta start somewhere don't ya? How about faith in your own perception of a first meeting?*  Is it too much work to check it out?  Is there a fear of finding a negative outcome or bad result?*How can that be done? I don't check out everyone I meet, I have faith in my judgement, then I may have trust in that person.*
> 
> Those who are careful with where they place their trust do their homework.  It prevents the Madoffs of the world from taking every sucker they meet.


 *Sheesh...I'd never go out in public and talk to anyone if I had to do a check up on them. I'm sure there is good with the bad, but I'm just not continuously paranoid about people. I'm pretty good at discerning of spirits anyway....except for the perv next door, whom I had avoided most of the time when possible*


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## earl (Jun 23, 2009)

Post 146/147
Trust/paranoid /schizophrenia
You may want to check a dictionary. These words all have different meanings.


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## Madman (Jun 23, 2009)

Rules for gunfighting # 18. 

Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see 'em).


Not meant to highjack. Sorry.


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## earl (Jun 23, 2009)

Another gunfight rule... When your opponent has no gun or no ammo, just walk away.


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## Lowjack (Jun 23, 2009)

"Blessed are those who have not seen yet believe"(Jesus)

Thomas had to see to believe and when he saw he believed,was he not saved also ?
According to Zechariah , The Jews will believe in the one they pierced when  He ascends over Jerusalem's mountains and they see his wounds, "then All Of Israel Will be Saved" Some us are privilidge to have teh Saving Faith which God has placed within Us, some don't, can they also be saved ? I think so.


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## earl (Jun 23, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> "Blessed are those who have not seen yet believe"(Jesus)
> 
> Thomas had to see to believe and when he saw he believed,was he not saved also ?
> According to Zechariah , The Jews will believe in the one they pierced when  He ascends over Jerusalem's mountains and they see his wounds, "then All Of Israel Will be Saved" Some us are privilidge to have teh Saving Faith which God has placed within Us, some don't, can they also be saved ? I think so.






''...when he ascends over Jerusalem...''
I take it this means the second coming ? If so and the Jews [All Of Israel] will be saved ,doesn't that negate sinners going to hades ? What I mean is ,if they aren't saved before the second coming ,get to witness the 2nd coming ,and then change to being saved, what is to keep every one from doing the same ? Put it off until you see physical proof. Doesn't the 144000 and 12000 play a part in there some where ?


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## mtnwoman (Jun 24, 2009)

earl said:


> Post 146/147
> Trust/paranoid /schizophrenia
> You may want to check a dictionary. These words all have different meanings.



No kiddin!
Your point?


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## earl (Jun 24, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> No kiddin!
> Your point?



IN one you talk about how much faith and trust you have in complete strangers and then you say how paranoid you are . To be both at the same time is what I believe is termed schizophrenia.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 25, 2009)

earl said:


> IN one you talk about how much faith and trust you have in complete strangers and then you say how paranoid you are . To be both at the same time is what I believe is termed schizophrenia.



No you missed my point totally. Maybe I don't express myself well.
You guys were talking about I needed to get to know someone, or check them out in depth before I even give them a chance...ie be careful who you trust etc.

I just said to you and w's comments that I'm not paranoid up front about people. I don't do a background check on everyone I come in contact with....that's all. And I said that if y'all do then maybe you two are paranoid...that's what I meant.
I at least give people a little bit of a chance..using discernment, discerning of spirits, gut feeling, whatever you wanna call it.
That's all.

I'm not paranoid, obviously or why would you two say I need to be careful.....you're just twisting what I said and that's not paranoia, that's a fact jack.


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## WTM45 (Jun 25, 2009)

Not paranoid here.  Just careful!
And I have good results to support my actions.  So, I'll continue.


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## earl (Jun 25, 2009)

You keep smoking that stuff and you will get paranoid !!!!!!!!!


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## WTM45 (Jun 25, 2009)

Cookie monster is addicted to cookies.  He is cooking up his cookie dough to get a fix.
I think it is totally hilarious!


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## earl (Jun 25, 2009)

10-4


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## Lowjack (Jun 25, 2009)

earl said:


> ''...when he ascends over Jerusalem...''
> I take it this means the second coming ? If so and the Jews [All Of Israel] will be saved ,doesn't that negate sinners going to hades ? What I mean is ,if they aren't saved before the second coming ,get to witness the 2nd coming ,and then change to being saved, what is to keep every one from doing the same ? Put it off until you see physical proof. Doesn't the 144000 and 12000 play a part in there some where ?



If all sinners go to hades then no one would be saved.
Zechariah 13
6 "And one shall say unto him: 'What are these wounds between thy hands?' Then he shall answer: 'Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends." (Zec. 13:1-6 JPSA 1917)


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## earl (Jun 26, 2009)

Pretty good scripture quoting there ,but still no answer. I am starting to catch on . when ya'll can't answer a question straight out ,you quote some mishmash that any body can,and does, interpret to mean whatever they want it to on a given day . It's a shame you can't just say ''I don't know''.


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