# Quail between the timber



## josef2424 (Nov 29, 2018)

I know that university researchers will disagree with me, but anyone think the constant low quail number talk is a little overhyped? I was hunting a 3,000 acre timber company lease around Waynesboro which was mainly loblolly pines in all stages of growth with a few hundred acres of clear cuts. Just driving a truck on the roads skirting around and going through the clearcuts, we were jumping a covey of 6-8 or so birds every half mile to mile driven it seemed. I was blown away. In Hancock we just cut 60 acres of pines that weren't thinned properly. Before then, I had jumped a covey twice in 20 years. Now i'm jumping one to two coveys a day by accident while just ambling around the clearcuts. Scares the crap out of me. It's a small data set, but the difference seems like night and day. If you look at satellite images of the land around lake Sinclair and Oconee, its full of pockets of clear cuts and new young pines. I think if more hunters were walking those clear cuts and chest high pines with dogs, there wouldn't be as much talk about the long lost good ol days. I think people just aren't wanting to get into the thick stuff and use their legs. I bet it was easier back in the day to cover more quail habitat when you could skirt around hedgerows instead of fighting your way into clearcut thickets.  I'm sure when the pines grow tall enough to block the sun from hitting the ground, you might as well be hunting quail on mars. But to me it seems like in counties with a high amount of timber farming, the quail would not have to go far to get from one clearcut to the next. Also, I haven't heard these quail calling that much; and I know that's a main way researchers estimate population size. Maybe quail call less in this sort of habitat versus the classic savannah/hedgerow habitat or because more hawks are around these days. Maybe university researchers themselves don't get into this thicker growth as much. Anyone agree?


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## lgard (Nov 30, 2018)

I definitely agree with you. Ive been hunting quail for 16 years and have seen a steady number of birds throughout the southeast counties. Ive watched researchers on both public and private land and none of them seem to want to be there. You hit the nail on the head when it comes to gun dogs, most people are just too lazy to train one or cant afford to have one trained. I personally dont know anyone around my area running good gun dogs anymore. Quail hunting is a dying art.. at least around my area.


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## quaildoc (Nov 30, 2018)

I am a university researcher and I agree with you! I have done several studies across the SE in production pine landscapes including those owned by industrial timber companies. As long as there is continuous access of clearcuts <2-5 years old that can provide some nesting and brood habitat, these landscapes can hold wild quail. Will the numbers be like a well-managed quail plantation in SW GA or the numbers of yesteryear? No. Do they help keep populations persisting on the landscape? Absolutely. 

The figure below is from one of those studies. It is a little hard to follow but I will walk you through it. The y-axis is number of whistling males detected during breeding surveys (~June) at a particular point. The x-axis is the distance from the edge of the forest stand. A "0" value means you are standing on the stand boundary between say a clearcut and a 20 yr old stand. A -200 means you are 200 m away from that edge in the clearcut (stand less than 5 years old) side and and +200 m means you are 200 m away from the edge into another type of pine forest. Each panel (total of 5) represent a comparison of a clearcut next to another type of forest: a 1 vs 1 is a clearcut next to another clearcut, a 1 vs 2 is a clearcut next to a stand about 5-9 yrs old, a 1 vs 3 is a clearcut next to stand just before thinning, a 1 vs 4 is a clearcut next to a stand that has been thinned, and a 1 vs 5 is a clearcut next to a stand just before final harvest. The picture below is a 1 vs 2.

Pretty telling to me that not only does the habitat conditions in a particular stand matter the conditions in the adjacent stand matter! Also, you should note these stands are not for the faint of heart. This university researcher didn't shy away from them~  

Be glad to answer questions about the data. 

P.S. I have 3 birddogs too.


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## trad bow (Nov 30, 2018)

Quail need small seed plants. Most of the plants they need are edge type plants. Quail populations started dwindling because of habitat and land use practices. The spraying of food plots kills a lot plants quail need. Some of those plants have more nutritional value to deer than what is being planted. Beggar lice plants are one of the plants that should not be killed. Very beneficial to quail and deer as well. We should be encouraged or educated to plant multi use plots for all wildlife. Plenty of habitat in Georgia that would support quail if managed properly.


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## kingfish (Dec 1, 2018)

Guys, I'm in north central Florida and for the first time in years, I'm fired up about about post deer hunting quail hunting.  Not a dog man, but the areas I deer hunt, when I hear them whistle at sunrise I mark the area with a GPS.  I've got about a half dozen areas between two WMA's where I've personally jumped the coveys.  Going to get some real exercise this Jan-Feb and walk these areas with a buddy.  Hopefully we can get a couple on the flush then get a single or two.  In my opinion, quail have made a little bit of a come back.  Hope I'm right.


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## trad bow (Dec 1, 2018)

I’m looking for some beggar lice seed along with some other plant seeds for quail. I do have a lot of beggar lice plants in my backyard. I want to plant native plants as much as possible.


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## maker4life (Dec 2, 2018)

trad bow said:


> I’m looking for some beggar lice seed along with some other plant seeds for quail. I do have a lot of beggar lice plants in my backyard. I want to plant native plants as much as possible.


https://roundstoneseed.com


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## trad bow (Dec 2, 2018)

Thank you just what I was looking for.


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## Dirtroad Johnson (Dec 3, 2018)

I've seen more quail in the last 3 to 5 years than the previous 10 to 15 or so. Nothing like the 60's or early 70's but they have rebounded some around here. I see them here quite often now. My favorite bird.


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## josef2424 (Dec 3, 2018)

Thank you for providing that objective information Quaildoc! Great to see how well thinned pines hold quail. I hope the timber companies continue to thin and have a well spaced crop rotation. Did you do research on timber company land because they were interested in helping the quail population? I wonder how discing and leaving bare dirt compares to burning for growing quail habitat.


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## quaildoc (Dec 4, 2018)

josef2424 said:


> Thank you for providing that objective information Quaildoc! Great to see how well thinned pines hold quail. I hope the timber companies continue to thin and have a well spaced crop rotation. Did you do research on timber company land because they were interested in helping the quail population? I wonder how discing and leaving bare dirt compares to burning for growing quail habitat.



You are welcome. I did the research there out of my personal interest. Timber companies usually have broader conservation goals instead of single species management. That is how they maintain sustainability certification.

Discing can be a useful tool but prescribed fire is a better all-around tool.


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## coveyrise (Dec 4, 2018)

Years ago I leased the quail hunting rights on 18,000 acres of land from Raynier Timber. They cut on a 18 year rotation which meant we had 1000 acres a year of new clear cut to hunt on. The 2-3 year fields held some strong bird numbers. We also fed the roads a lot with milo. They would wind row the pines with bulldozers back then. The soil disturbance brought up all the partridge pea and beggar weeds in the seed bank. The hunting rivaled hunting on a well managed wild bird plantation. We would regularly move 10-12 coveys in 4 hours. Then they started spraying field with Arsenal and quit the windrow cleanups. They v bladed and planted pines. The quail numbers crashed after that. We had some outstanding hunting for a while.


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## Eroc33 (Dec 17, 2018)

I have been wondering about this lately, if there is no sustainable population why do we even have a season, i know south Georgia is going to be better, but they split other game up by zones.  The reason im wondering is it seems like most people assume there are not enough wild birds to fool with hunting, and i used to have a bird dog and mainly hunted pen raised birds, and the hassle and expense got where i had to stop doing it.

 I have been thinking about getting another dog recently, but i dont want to get a dog and depend on pen raised, so i have been out exploring public land around me and found some good habit i think, but i am wondering if it is wishful thinking that there will be birds there.


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## across the river (Dec 23, 2018)

Eroc33 said:


> I have been wondering about this lately, if there is no sustainable population why do we even have a season, i know south Georgia is going to be better, but they split other game up by zones.  The reason im wondering is it seems like most people assume there are not enough wild birds to fool with hunting, and i used to have a bird dog and mainly hunted pen raised birds, and the hassle and expense got where i had to stop doing it.
> 
> I have been thinking about getting another dog recently, but i dont want to get a dog and depend on pen raised, so i have been out exploring public land around me and found some good habit i think, but i am wondering if it is wishful thinking that there will be birds there.



 Depending on habitat, hunting pressure, etc....there will be drastic differences in the number quail on difference tracts and in different parts of the state.   There are plenty of places out that that hold plenty of quail, but there are also a lot of places that don't.  In certain areas and on certain tracts the population is not only sustainable, but growing.   In other places you will never see a quail.  However, in the grand scheme of things the number of quail killed by hunters has essentially negligible to the overall population.  If you outlawed quail hunting all together, the places that have birds will still have birds and the places that don't won't.  It is more of a habitat issue.   Public land will often get hammered, but that is a localized issue and would have nothing to do with setting the overall season.  I wouldn't count on the population on public land places to get a lot better than it is now.


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## cj104 (Jan 3, 2019)

I agree with "across the river"'s points about finding very different population densities on different tracts of land. We may someday discover that there is some other large-scale impact on quail populations that drove populations down, but what we know FOR SURE is that HABITAT is the largest controllable influence we can have on quail.

Also, good point about the negligible impact of hunting on quail survival rates. IMO, there is one reason to not hunt quail on a property: if the covey you've flushed has less than about 8 birds then it may not retain enough body heat to survive a cold, wet weather event. If the covey size is strong then your bird harvest (theoretically, of course) simply takes one more bird out of the clutches of an owl, a raccoon, or mother nature.

I try to practice "messy" mixed-species food plots (@trad bow) for deer, soil health, and bird habitat. i think it is beneficial AND less expensive.

Overall, I disagree that researchers are wrong about a significant population decline ON AVERAGE across the bobwhite's range. However, I strongly agree that bobwhites are still strong in pockets of good habitat. I hear lots of anecdotal evidence from deer hunters that quail have made a small rebound over the last few years (just like what you guys are saying). Here in SC DNR has partnered with 501c3 organizations to hire a few quail-specific positions, and we are seeing the benefits in the population counts on public land. 

If we (as sportsmen and conservationists) can continue to spread the gospel of prescribed fire, small clear cuts, and bird dogs then I believe we will continue to a population rebound. 

Hunter recruitment is key to supply and demand for good habitat. Good habitat is key to good quail hunting. And good quail hunting is key to hunter recruitment.


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## trad bow (Jan 3, 2019)

Trying to save a few nest one coon at the time. Second one this week.


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## mecicon (Jan 15, 2019)

Not one of the previous 17 posts mentioned water...we were in a "decades long" drought until 2009 in some parts of GA and the SE even later.

Every hatch forecast always mentions rain and moisture as factors.


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## Mark K (Jan 15, 2019)

This is based on an actual wild bird plantation that does all of the mentioned above with stringent predator control year round, but the last 2 years hatches have been above normal. 15-18 coveys a hunt are the norm not the exception. 

Now let’s hit some public land, my local WMA has adopted a quail management practice. This past Spring while turkey hunting I swear I could close my eyes and it sounded like I was on the plantation. They have seriously thinned the pines and let the natural browse come back and even had signs out Warning of trapping in the area. I can only imagine what it will sound like this Spring. 

It’s a miracle these birds even survive from egg to adult. From fire ants, small and large predators, birds of prey, and snakes...the odds are stacked against them. The habitat has to be diversified to cover all their needs and predators need to be controlled. The rest we have to depend on Mother Nature for.

**Just a little tidbit of info: Wonder how the quail weathered the Hurricane? According to radio collared quail in SW Georgia and NW Florida...they rode out the storm in Gopher Tortoise  holes.***


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## trad bow (Jan 15, 2019)

Lots of great information. Thanks for everyone’s input. 
Jeff


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## Luke.Deer.Commander (Jan 17, 2019)

I’m a wild quail plantation manager and wildlife biolgist in SWGA and I would say that wild quail populations are definitely variable throughout their range. Habitat factors and weather factors play the biggest role and we as managers can change the weather. The area in which I’m at, we’ve had extreme amounts of rainfall that have damaged our hatch and prevented good hatch to adult survival. A lot of the timber companies that you speak of are doing more prescribed fire which is promoting those plants that provide good forage and habitat for the quail along with good harvest practices that allow for the sunlight to get to the forest floor. We intensively manage here for the quail numbers we have but in my time at school with forestry students, it is easy to see that some forest companies to promote multiple use management. It is a catch 22 though as you can not maximize everything all at once. Happy hunting everyone!


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