# Doubt



## AceyFlyer (Jan 6, 2019)

My pastor is preaching out of Eph 5:14 this morning. It’s a good new year’s sermon. At the closing of the sermon our pastor announced that one of our long time members has pancreatic cancer and they are not sure how longer she has to live. It’s a small church and so the announcement was very traumatic to all of us, especially me cause I have been wondering if belief in Jesus really does give us eternal life. The lady has a wonderful attitude about the situation and a true peace that passes all understanding. What peace she has in her eternal security! I wonder if believing in Christ despite all the contractions, questions, mismatched theology and other things that really make no sense is worth it simply for the peace it brings when we or our loved ones and friends face death?
Is this peace she has simply a false sense of psychological security or is it something much deeper? If I am not 100% sure that Jesus died for my sins will I still get into heaven? I sincerely struggle with these questions.  Maybe God is trying to speak to me about my doubt or maybe it is just life and timing.


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## 1eyefishing (Jan 6, 2019)

Maybe.
These are the questions of life.
To answer them is the meaning of life (for some).
I believe that living the life that Jesus would be proud of is good for me in more ways than just the afterlife.
Keep on seeking.


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## bullethead (Jan 6, 2019)

Brother David brought this verse to light in another thread.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

Be a good person to yourself and others. How can you not get credit for that?


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## WaltL1 (Jan 7, 2019)

AceyFlyer said:


> My pastor is preaching out of Eph 5:14 this morning. It’s a good new year’s sermon. At the closing of the sermon our pastor announced that one of our long time members has pancreatic cancer and they are not sure how longer she has to live. It’s a small church and so the announcement was very traumatic to all of us, especially me cause I have been wondering if belief in Jesus really does give us eternal life. The lady has a wonderful attitude about the situation and a true peace that passes all understanding. What peace she has in her eternal security! I wonder if believing in Christ despite all the contractions, questions, mismatched theology and other things that really make no sense is worth it simply for the peace it brings when we or our loved ones and friends face death?
> Is this peace she has simply a false sense of psychological security or is it something much deeper? If I am not 100% sure that Jesus died for my sins will I still get into heaven? I sincerely struggle with these questions.  Maybe God is trying to speak to me about my doubt or maybe it is just life and timing.





> I wonder if believing in Christ despite all the contractions, questions, mismatched theology and other things that really make no sense is worth it simply for the peace it brings


For many, it is so worth it that all the contradictions, questions, mismatched theologies and other things aren't even a speed bump in their beliefs. They become "minor details".


> Is this peace she has simply a false sense of psychological security or is it something much deeper?


It may be false from the standpoint that there may be no God but on the flip side her beliefs in fact do provide her psychological security so can they be called "false"?


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## Brother David (Jan 7, 2019)

AceyFlyer said:


> My pastor is preaching out of Eph 5:14 this morning. It’s a good new year’s sermon. At the closing of the sermon our pastor announced that one of our long time members has pancreatic cancer and they are not sure how longer she has to live. It’s a small church and so the announcement was very traumatic to all of us, especially me cause I have been wondering if belief in Jesus really does give us eternal life. The lady has a wonderful attitude about the situation and a true peace that passes all understanding. What peace she has in her eternal security! I wonder if believing in Christ despite all the contractions, questions, mismatched theology and other things that really make no sense is worth it simply for the peace it brings when we or our loved ones and friends face death?
> Is this peace she has simply a false sense of psychological security or is it something much deeper? If I am not 100% sure that Jesus died for my sins will I still get into heaven? I sincerely struggle with these questions.  Maybe God is trying to speak to me about my doubt or maybe it is just life and timing.


Prayed for peace and understanding for both of you . 
Try Hebrews 12: 1&2 , these verses say a lot. Remember in all races though each is distinctive , we must push ourselves to completion .


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## j_seph (Jan 7, 2019)

PM sent


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## welderguy (Jan 7, 2019)

bullethead said:


> Be a good person to yourself and others. How can you not get credit for that?



Who says you don't?

Rom.2
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


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## bullethead (Jan 7, 2019)

welderguy said:


> Who says you don't?
> 
> Rom.2
> 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
> 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


Depending on who involved in the conversation and depending upon which Verse they want to pick....many say that.

Is just being a  good person going to get me into your Heaven Welder?


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## welderguy (Jan 7, 2019)

bullethead said:


> Depending on who involved in the conversation and depending upon which Verse they want to pick....many say that.
> 
> Is just being a  good person going to get me into your Heaven Welder?



No sir. It takes a blood sacrifice.


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## bullethead (Jan 7, 2019)

welderguy said:


> No sir. It takes a blood sacrifice.


See, you are one of the "who" that you asked about.


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## welderguy (Jan 7, 2019)

bullethead said:


> See, you are one of the "who" that you asked about.



You turned a question about generic "credit" into a different question entirely about "getting into heaven". Why did you feel a need to do that?


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## bullethead (Jan 7, 2019)

I quoted Revelation about how one will be judged to get into heaven. It does not say anything about a blood sacrifice or believing in Jesus.


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## welderguy (Jan 7, 2019)

bullethead said:


> I quoted Revelation about how one will be judged to get into heaven. It does not say anything about a blood sacrifice or believing in Jesus.



I personally do not believe people will be "judged to get into heaven".
I believe this judgement you refer to in this text is in the here and now. I believe it pertains to the kingdom.


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## bullethead (Jan 7, 2019)

welderguy said:


> I personally do not believe people will be "judged to get into heaven".
> I believe this judgement you refer to in this text is in the here and now. I believe it pertains to the kingdom.


Revelation 20:12 
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

Are you saying that above is "here and now"?


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## welderguy (Jan 7, 2019)

bullethead said:


> Revelation 20:12
> And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
> 
> Are you saying that above is "here and now"?



Yes


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 7, 2019)

welderguy said:


> No sir. It takes a blood sacrifice.


Which has already been made. There are a lot of passages on what will happen to the good vs evil at the resurrection. Even though the sacrifice has been made. It has to pertain to something beyond the here and now.
The man who clothed and fed Jesus vs the man who didn't.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 7, 2019)

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

I guess it's possible that has already happened. That now we are no longer judged by our works. That the sacrifice has taken the place of our inability to do good works.


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## welderguy (Jan 8, 2019)

Bullethead, back to your "credit for doing good"  scenario, Rom.14 says anything that is done without faith is sin. So, even though God is no respecter of persons, He is a respecter of faith.
Something to think about.


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## bullethead (Jan 8, 2019)

welderguy said:


> Bullethead, back to your "credit for doing good"  scenario, Rom.14 says anything that is done without faith is sin. So, even though God is no respecter of persons, He is a respecter of faith.
> Something to think about.


The entire book can and is picked line by line to say one thing and then contradict itself later.

Has the content of Revelation happened already?


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## welderguy (Jan 8, 2019)

bullethead said:


> The entire book can and is picked line by line to say one thing and then contradict itself later.
> 
> Has the content of Revelation happened already?



Some has happened, much is happening, and some has yet to happen.


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## bullethead (Jan 8, 2019)

welderguy said:


> Some has happened, much is happening, and some has yet to happen.


You are a cover all bases type of guy.


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## Spotlite (Jan 8, 2019)

welderguy said:


> Bullethead, back to your "credit for doing good"  scenario, Rom.14 says anything that is done without faith is sin. So, even though God is no respecter of persons, He is a respecter of faith.
> Something to think about.


I may have read it wrong, but I didn’t read bullet’s comment about getting credit for being good as “the way” to get in. If you’re judged on what you done, and you’re instructed to treat your neighbors a certain way, it just seems that how you treat them would be looked at as part of what you done. What if you went through the blood and treated your neighbors like trash???

I thought it was a good neutral comment of encouragement to give someone that was doing a little soul searching.


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## j_seph (Jan 8, 2019)

bullethead said:


> Revelation 20:12
> And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
> 
> Are you saying that above is "here and now"?


To properly understand the Book of Life, you must realize that there are really two Books of Life. One is called “the book of life”; the other, “the Lamb’s book of life”.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 8, 2019)

> bullethead said:
> Revelation 20:12
> And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.



Are you saying that above is "here and now"?


welderguy said:


> Yes


Just curious -
How do you take a paragraph that only references the past tense -
"I saw"
"were opened"
"was opened"
"were judged"
"had done"
And then claim it pertains to not only the present but the future?

Let me guess...…… 
"It doesn't mean what it says because somewhere else it says...…….."


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## WaltL1 (Jan 8, 2019)

j_seph said:


> To properly understand the Book of Life, you must realize that there are really two Books of Life. One is called “the book of life”; the other, “the Lamb’s book of life”.


So if there are 2 books of life, what were the other ones?


> books were opened. Another book was opened....


books (plural) + another book = at least 3.


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## welderguy (Jan 8, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> I may have read it wrong, but I didn’t read bullet’s comment about getting credit for being good as “the way” to get in. If you’re judged on what you done, and you’re instructed to treat your neighbors a certain way, it just seems that how you treat them would be looked at as part of what you done. What if you went through the blood and treated your neighbors like trash???
> 
> I thought it was a good neutral comment of encouragement to give someone that was doing a little soul searching.



Yes. I agree. ...I figured that out later. I'm slow sometimes.


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## welderguy (Jan 8, 2019)

bullethead said:


> You are a cover all bases type of guy.



Someone greater than me covered all bases. I'm just glorying in His work.


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## welderguy (Jan 8, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> Are you saying that above is "here and now"?
> 
> Just curious -
> How do you take a paragraph that only references the past tense -
> ...



It's as if John is seeing things without time restraints. And they are pictures of things, without specific chronological order.
By that, I mean events overlap and repeat several times from different angles of view.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 8, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> I may have read it wrong, but I didn’t read bullet’s comment about getting credit for being good as “the way” to get in. If you’re judged on what you done, and you’re instructed to treat your neighbors a certain way, it just seems that how you treat them would be looked at as part of what you done. What if you went through the blood and treated your neighbors like trash???
> 
> I thought it was a good neutral comment of encouragement to give someone that was doing a little soul searching.



The encouragement was good but most Christians believe that it has to be by way of Christ or through Christ concerning the works.
The blood of Christ, the atonement.

The washing more or less. Most Christians believe the washing takes care of all sins except homosexuality. So somehow even though we've been washed of all of our sins, we'll still be judged by our deeds.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 8, 2019)

welderguy said:


> It's as if John is seeing things without time restraints. And they are pictures of things, without specific chronological order.
> By that, I mean events overlap and repeat several times from different angles of view.


The usage of past tense conveys the chronological order.
Get around that by telling yourself anything you want.


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## Spotlite (Jan 8, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> The usage of past tense conveys the chronological order.M.


Things John “saw” in Revelation are prophetic of things to come.


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## bullethead (Jan 8, 2019)

j_seph said:


> To properly understand the Book of Life, you must realize that there are really two Books of Life. One is called “the book of life”; the other, “the Lamb’s book of life”.


Now would be a good time to explain the differences and the (at least) 3rd book.


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## welderguy (Jan 8, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> The encouragement was good but most Christians believe that it has to buy by way of Christ or through Christ concerning the works.
> The blood of Christ, the atonement.
> 
> The washing more or less. Most Christians believe the washing takes care of all sins except homosexuality. So somehow even though we've been washed of all of our sins, we'll still be judged by our deeds.



HUH??
I must not be like most Christians then.


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## j_seph (Jan 8, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> So if there are 2 books of life, what were the other ones?
> 
> books (plural) + another book = at least 3.


Possibly Books(plural) mean
1. The Book of Nature.
Psalm 19: 1-2
Romans 1:20
Acts 14:17
2. The Book of Remembrance.  
Malachi 3:16
Isaiah 30:8-9
1 Corinthians 4:5
Luke 8:17
Romans 2:16
3. The Old Testament.  
John 5:34
Luke 24:44
Luke 24:25
Matthew 22:29
4. The New testament.
Matthew 7:24, 26
Matthew 28:18-20
John 12:48
1 Peter 1:35
Matthew 24:35
Hebrews 2:3
2 Peter 3:2
John 6:68
5. The Record of Every Man’s Works.
John 5:26-29
Matthew 25:31-46
Romans 2:5-6
2 Corinthians 5:10
Acts 10:34
James 2:26
1 John 2:4-5
1 John 3:23-24
Revelation 2:5
Revelation 14:13  
6. The Book of Life.
Philippians 4:3
Revelation 13:8
Revelation 20:12-15
Revelation 21:27


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## 660griz (Jan 8, 2019)

welderguy said:


> Someone greater than me covered all bases. I'm just glorying in His work.


What did he say about microorganisms kicking our behind?


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## welderguy (Jan 8, 2019)

660griz said:


> What did he say about microorganisms kicking our behind?



HUH?


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## j_seph (Jan 8, 2019)

660griz said:


> What did he say about microorganisms kicking our behind?


Go to your local library and check out a bible or spend a night in a hotel, you will find one there in the dresser drawer. Open it up and read Leviticus


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## WaltL1 (Jan 8, 2019)

j_seph said:


> Go to your local library and check out a bible or spend a night in a hotel, you will find one there in the dresser drawer. Open it up and read Leviticus


Maybe.


> a recent survey by STR, a hospitality analytics company, found that the percentage of hotels that offer religious materials in rooms has dropped significantly over the last decade, from 95% of hotels in 2006 to 48% this year.


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## bullethead (Jan 8, 2019)

j_seph said:


> Go to your local library and check out a bible or spend a night in a hotel, you will find one there in the dresser drawer. Open it up and read Leviticus


Wave a blacklight over some of those hotel bibles and swipe a swab over them and you'll see there is more microorganisms and more than just microorganisms than just in Leviticus...


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## Brother David (Jan 8, 2019)

I have a serious question for all .
Why was a man request for peace of mind hijacked ?
There's plenty of threads to argue on ! 
Aceyflyer I hope and pray  you find your peace of mind .
I suggest talking to others who have gone through your struggle . 
Most importantly pray , remember the Son could nothing without the Father and neither can we .


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## WaltL1 (Jan 8, 2019)

Brother David said:


> I have a serious question for all .
> Why was a man request for peace of mind hijacked ?
> There's plenty of threads to argue on !
> Aceyflyer I hope and pray  you find your peace of mind .
> ...


Quit your darn whining.
This is a AAA forum.
If you think he should only get the Christian perspective, introduce him to one of the forums upstairs.
Oh yeah, quit your darn whining.


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## bullethead (Jan 8, 2019)

Brother David said:


> I have a serious question for all .
> Why was a man request for peace of mind hijacked ?
> There's plenty of threads to argue on !
> Aceyflyer I hope and pray  you find your peace of mind .
> ...


Poor persecuted Xtians...huh Brudda?


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## Brother David (Jan 8, 2019)

Both of you need to be respectful ! I can assure you that's what you would want . It is a open forum and free Country for now , but due to lack of respect the discourse is eroding fast .


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## redwards (Jan 8, 2019)

Not to derail the OP's thread...but...





WaltL1 said:


> Maybe.
> ​"a recent survey by STR, a hospitality analytics company, found that the percentage of hotels that offer religious materials in rooms has dropped significantly over the last decade, from 95% of hotels in 2006 to 48% this year."​


For a myriad of reasons....
"It's because the religious books don't fit the personality of the brands," said Marriott spokeswoman Felicia Farrar McLemore, explaining that the Moxy and Edition hotels are geared toward fun-loving millennials.​​Among the reasons for the change, according to industry experts, is a need to appeal to younger American travelers who are less devout than their parents or grandparents and to avoid offending international travelers such as Muslims or Buddhists.​​And then there is this practical issue: Many newer hotel brands install shelves rather than nightstands with drawers next to the bed, making it difficult to be discreet about offering a Bible. A copy of the Scriptures on a bedside shelf makes a more pronounced statement than a Bible slipped into a drawer.​​"In an era of not offending anyone, I think hotels have a conundrum," said Carl Winston, director of San Diego State University's L. Robert Payne School of Hospitality and Tourism Management program.​​Hotels also have been under pressure lately from atheist groups.​​The Freedom From Religion Foundation, a nonprofit group that promotes separation of church and state, wrote to 15 major hotel companies last year, asking them to keep Bibles out of hotel rooms.​​The group succeeded in the last year in getting hotels operated by Arizona State University and Northern Illinois University to remove all Bibles from their rooms.​​The foundation also created a sticker that reads: "Warning: Literal belief in this book may endanger your health and life." The group has encouraged its supporters to affix the stickers on any hotel room Bible they find.​​"We are trying to educate the hotel industry that a quarter of our population is not religious," said Annie Laurie Gaylor, co-president of the group.​​Source of my quotes:
https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hotel-bibles-20161204-story.html


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## bullethead (Jan 8, 2019)

Brother David said:


> Both of you need to be respectful ! I can assure you that's what you would want . It is a open forum and free Country for now , but due to lack of respect the discourse is eroding fast .


I gave Ace what I thought was neutral sound advice. It wasn't a non believer who questioned me and took it off in another direction. Did you miss that or ignore it to see what you want?


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## bullethead (Jan 8, 2019)

redwards said:


> Not to derail the OP's thread...but...
> For a myriad of reasons....
> "It's because the religious books don't fit the personality of the brands," said Marriott spokeswoman Felicia Farrar McLemore, explaining that the Moxy and Edition hotels are geared toward fun-loving millennials.​​Among the reasons for the change, according to industry experts, is a need to appeal to younger American travelers who are less devout than their parents or grandparents and to avoid offending international travelers such as Muslims or Buddhists.​​And then there is this practical issue: Many newer hotel brands install shelves rather than nightstands with drawers next to the bed, making it difficult to be discreet about offering a Bible. A copy of the Scriptures on a bedside shelf makes a more pronounced statement than a Bible slipped into a drawer.​​"In an era of not offending anyone, I think hotels have a conundrum," said Carl Winston, director of San Diego State University's L. Robert Payne School of Hospitality and Tourism Management program.​​Hotels also have been under pressure lately from atheist groups.​​The Freedom From Religion Foundation, a nonprofit group that promotes separation of church and state, wrote to 15 major hotel companies last year, asking them to keep Bibles out of hotel rooms.​​The group succeeded in the last year in getting hotels operated by Arizona State University and Northern Illinois University to remove all Bibles from their rooms.​​The foundation also created a sticker that reads: "Warning: Literal belief in this book may endanger your health and life." The group has encouraged its supporters to affix the stickers on any hotel room Bible they find.​​"We are trying to educate the hotel industry that a quarter of our population is not religious," said Annie Laurie Gaylor, co-president of the group.​​Source of my quotes:
> https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hotel-bibles-20161204-story.html


How in the name of all that is holy can some goofy non believers keep the two most powerful deities of all dieties,Jesus and God,  out of hotels and schools?
How???


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## redwards (Jan 8, 2019)

bullethead said:


> How in the name of all that is holy can some goofy non believers keep the two most powerful deities of all dieties,Jesus and God,  out of hotels and schools?
> How???


They can't...They just think they can.


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## ky55 (Jan 8, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> Quit your darn whining.i
> This is a AAA forum.
> If you think he should only get the Christian perspective, introduce him to one of the forums upstairs.
> Oh yeah, quit your darn whining.



Bro D is all butt hurt...again.


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## bullethead (Jan 8, 2019)

redwards said:


> They can't...They just think they can.


So why post the article then?


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## Brother David (Jan 8, 2019)

bullethead said:


> I gave Ace what I thought was neutral sound advice. It wasn't a non believer who questioned me and took it off in another direction. Did you miss that or ignore it to see what you want?


I was referring to everyone . It was just you Walt misbehaving .


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## WaltL1 (Jan 8, 2019)

redwards said:


> Not to derail the OP's thread...but...
> For a myriad of reasons....
> "It's because the religious books don't fit the personality of the brands," said Marriott spokeswoman Felicia Farrar McLemore, explaining that the Moxy and Edition hotels are geared toward fun-loving millennials.​​Among the reasons for the change, according to industry experts, is a need to appeal to younger American travelers who are less devout than their parents or grandparents and to avoid offending international travelers such as Muslims or Buddhists.​​And then there is this practical issue: Many newer hotel brands install shelves rather than nightstands with drawers next to the bed, making it difficult to be discreet about offering a Bible. A copy of the Scriptures on a bedside shelf makes a more pronounced statement than a Bible slipped into a drawer.​​"In an era of not offending anyone, I think hotels have a conundrum," said Carl Winston, director of San Diego State University's L. Robert Payne School of Hospitality and Tourism Management program.​​Hotels also have been under pressure lately from atheist groups.​​The Freedom From Religion Foundation, a nonprofit group that promotes separation of church and state, wrote to 15 major hotel companies last year, asking them to keep Bibles out of hotel rooms.​​The group succeeded in the last year in getting hotels operated by Arizona State University and Northern Illinois University to remove all Bibles from their rooms.​​The foundation also created a sticker that reads: "Warning: Literal belief in this book may endanger your health and life." The group has encouraged its supporters to affix the stickers on any hotel room Bible they find.​​"We are trying to educate the hotel industry that a quarter of our population is not religious," said Annie Laurie Gaylor, co-president of the group.​​Source of my quotes:
> https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hotel-bibles-20161204-story.html


In all seriousness, not sure what your point is?
The statement was made stay in a hotel there's a Bible in the drawer.
I made the point that's not necessarily true any more.
No more, no less 

As far as the sticker in the Bible nonsense above ^
I would be fine with it if anybody who did that got charged with destruction of hotel property.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 8, 2019)

Brother David said:


> I was referring to everyone . It was just you Walt misbehaving .


I have a mother already.
And she don't whine.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 8, 2019)

redwards said:


> They can't...They just think they can.


Question for you -
Do you believe those Atheists literally think they are removing God from anywhere?
Or do you think it would be obvious to them that they cant remove your belief but they can fight to remove the Bible etc from public places like hotels and you keep your book to yourself, your homes, your churches, bring it to the hotel with you if you want......


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## redwards (Jan 9, 2019)

bullethead said:


> So why post the article then?


​Bullet,​In Post #38 of the thread Walt quoted a paragraph that is shown verbatim in an article (the link I posted) on the LA Times website. Since Walt's quote (the point he was trying to make) was just one paragraph of several paragraphs relating to the survey and its results, I just wanted to add context to Walt's quote. Context is usually beneficial to give more complete understanding to a thought, is it not? ...So, the reason I posted my part of the article was to provide context.​


WaltL1 said:


> In all seriousness, not sure what your point is?
> The statement was made stay in a hotel there's a Bible in the drawer.
> I made the point that's not necessarily true any more.
> No more, no less



Walt,​My only point is to add context to the quote you posted. I have no idea what website (if it indeed came from a website) you got the quote from. But, what I did was to google your entire quote (within quotation marks). Several links came up that have the exact wording.​Linkto my search:​https://www.google.com/search?safe=....2-2......1....1j2..gws-wiz.....6.art5p5H7K6g​​So, I was just adding context to your quote to provide a more complete understanding of the survey and the implications of its results as written by the reporter.​And, I understand and accept that you were only making a point that a Bible may or may not be in a Hotel/Motel room.​


WaltL1 said:


> As far as the sticker in the Bible nonsense above ^
> I would be fine with it if anybody who did that got charged with destruction of hotel property.



I don't believe you would feel any other way than that!​


WaltL1 said:


> Question for you -
> Do you believe those Atheists literally think they are removing God from anywhere?



I believe I don't really know.​​


WaltL1 said:


> Or do you think it would be obvious to them that they can't remove your belief but they can fight to remove the Bible etc from public places like hotels and you keep your book to yourself, your homes, your churches, bring it to the hotel with you if you want......



First of all, I believe most Hotels are privately owned, and exist as business enterprises that provide a service to individuals/families, which would mean the groups could probably be charged with destruction of property, as you stated above.​That being said, I think they (those groups of Atheists) realize they cannot remove an individual's personal belief, but I have not really had very much, if any, exposure to any of those groups. And I also think they would be delighted if they could restrict God's word from any person's view.​But, those are just my beliefs and thoughts.​


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## amoore28 (Jan 10, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> Are you saying that above is "here and now"?
> 
> Just curious -
> How do you take a paragraph that only references the past tense -
> ...


The book of revalation was written by the apostle John. Everything was written in past tense because most of the events in revaltions where his recollections of dreams or visions that he received from God.


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## amoore28 (Jan 10, 2019)

AceyFlyer said:


> My pastor is preaching out of Eph 5:14 this morning. It’s a good new year’s sermon. At the closing of the sermon our pastor announced that one of our long time members has pancreatic cancer and they are not sure how longer she has to live. It’s a small church and so the announcement was very traumatic to all of us, especially me cause I have been wondering if belief in Jesus really does give us eternal life. The lady has a wonderful attitude about the situation and a true peace that passes all understanding. What peace she has in her eternal security! I wonder if believing in Christ despite all the contractions, questions, mismatched theology and other things that really make no sense is worth it simply for the peace it brings when we or our loved ones and friends face death?
> Is this peace she has simply a false sense of psychological security or is it something much deeper? If I am not 100% sure that Jesus died for my sins will I still get into heaven? I sincerely struggle with these questions.  Maybe God is trying to speak to me about my doubt or maybe it is just life and timing.


The biggest question is how can one believe in heaven without believing in Jesus. What I mean by this is that if you believe there is a heaven the you ha e to believe that the only way to heaven is having a personal relationship with Christ in which you put your full trust in him. The Bible says that Jesus died for everyman's sin and it also said that all men have fallen short of the glory of God. The Lord God said of you seek me you will find me and if you knock the door will be opened. Jesus said that he will not refuse anyman that's seeks after him. All he asks from us is that we repent and trun from our evil ways and love and trust in him. I understand where your coming from because I too had doubts and questions bit I would encourage you to really search the scriptures and if you have to find a man that really knows the Bible and that can really take you under his wing and teach. I know that Jesus is Lord not only because the Bible says so bit also because of the work and change he has personally done in my own life. Gods desire is that no man fall and go to **** bit he wishes that all men would know and love his son so that you may be glorified with him in heaven. I am praying for you brother that you may find peace and understanding that only God can give. I say this all out of love and hope that you find your answers and I know that the Lord will hear you and answer you


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## WaltL1 (Jan 10, 2019)

amoore28 said:


> The book of revalation was written by the apostle John. Everything was written in past tense because most of the events in revaltions where his recollections of dreams or visions that he received from God.


And therefore do not pertain to now or the future. Correct?
"Will be opened"
Will be judged"
Etc. would be the verbiage used if those dreams or visions pertained to now or the future?


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## WaltL1 (Jan 10, 2019)

redwards said:


> ​Bullet,​In Post #38 of the thread Walt quoted a paragraph that is shown verbatim in an article (the link I posted) on the LA Times website. Since Walt's quote (the point he was trying to make) was just one paragraph of several paragraphs relating to the survey and its results, I just wanted to add context to Walt's quote. Context is usually beneficial to give more complete understanding to a thought, is it not? ...So, the reason I posted my part of the article was to provide context.​
> 
> 
> Walt,​My only point is to add context to the quote you posted. I have no idea what website (if it indeed came from a website) you got the quote from. But, what I did was to google your entire quote (within quotation marks). Several links came up that have the exact wording.​Linkto my search:​https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&source=hp&ei=PXw2XJ_gHpCxggeRqaTQCg&q="a+recent+survey+by+STR,+a+hospitality+analytics+company,+found+that+the+percentage+of+hotels+that+offer+religious+materials+in+rooms+has+dropped+significantly+over+the+last+decade,+from+95%+of+hotels+in+2006+to+48%+this+year."&btnK=Google+Search&oq="a+recent+survey+by+STR,+a+hospitality+analytics+company,+found+that+the+percentage+of+hotels+that+offer+religious+materials+in+rooms+has+dropped+significantly+over+the+last+decade,+from+95%+of+hotels+in+2006+to+48%+this+year."&gs_l=psy-ab.3..35i39l10.63814.67951..68794...2.0..0.264.484.2-2......1....1j2..gws-wiz.....6.art5p5H7K6g​​So, I was just adding context to your quote to provide a more complete understanding of the survey and the implications of its results as written by the reporter.​And, I understand and accept that you were only making a point that a Bible may or may not be in a Hotel/Motel room.​
> ...


First -
No problem with you adding context for context sake.


> but I have not really had very much, if any, exposure to any of those groups.


Me either. Im guessing we probably only know about them what we read.
While I understand the "bigger picture" of what they are trying to accomplish, I think they go about it in some really silly ways.


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## Brother David (Jan 10, 2019)

Since our point of Interest has moved from beliefs to doubt I have a question about doubt. I doubt that very many in our atheist and agnostic Community ever humble themselves before someone therefore  that's why they don't believe in a creator . Most people who've I've ever spoke with that had this point of view only believe in infinite answers for people who they consider higher authorities . If you will notice in the above sentence I use the word people in that instant they look for people to for their answers. I seriously doubt they've ever given any consideration to their answer against the Bible they State people wrote it therefore it must be wrong but yet they believe other articles written by people. There's doubt in all things but we have to do is humble ourself and Trust . 
If we are here for a meaningless existence why have birthdays , why have funerals why even be concerned about one another if it's a meaningless existence. I doubt that any in the atheist and agnostic Community have ever given the thought that the reason they doubt is because they want control of their own existence .  
In no way am I trying to stay the exact truth just trying to find an answer to your doubt .


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## Brother David (Jan 10, 2019)

Since our point of Interest has moved from beliefs to doubt I have a question about doubt. I doubt that very many in our atheist and agnostic Community ever humble themselves before someone therefore  that's why they don't believe in a creator . Most people who've I've ever spoke with that had this point of view only believe in infinite answers for people who they consider higher authorities . If you will notice in the above sentence I use the word people in that instant they look for people to for their answers. I seriously doubt they've ever given any consideration to their answer against the Bible they State people wrote it therefore it must be wrong but yet they believe other articles written by people. There's doubt in all things but we have to do is humble ourself and Trust . 
If we are here for a meaningless existence why have birthdays , why have funerals why even be concerned about one another if it's a meaningless existence. I doubt that any in the atheist and agnostic Community have ever given the thought that the reason they doubt is because they want control of their own existence .  
In no way am I trying to stay the exact truth just trying to find an answer to your doubt .

Excuse all typos and punctuation , on my phone again .


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## WaltL1 (Jan 10, 2019)

Brother David said:


> Since our point of Interest has moved from beliefs to doubt I have a question about doubt. I doubt that very many in our atheist and agnostic Community ever humble themselves before someone therefore  that's why they don't believe in a creator . Most people who've I've ever spoke with that had this point of view only believe in infinite answers for people who they consider higher authorities . If you will notice in the above sentence I use the word people in that instant they look for people to for their answers. I seriously doubt they've ever given any consideration to their answer against the Bible they State people wrote it therefore it must be wrong but yet they believe other articles written by people. There's doubt in all things but we have to do is humble ourself and Trust .
> If we are here for a meaningless existence why have birthdays , why have funerals why even be concerned about one another if it's a meaningless existence. I doubt that any in the atheist and agnostic Community have ever given the thought that the reason they doubt is because they want control of their own existence .
> In no way am I trying to stay the exact truth just trying to find an answer to your doubt .
> 
> Excuse all typos and punctuation , on my phone again .





> If we are here for a meaningless existence why have birthdays , why have funerals why even be concerned about one another if it's a meaningless existence.


Please go to any thread current or past and copy and paste here where an A/A said our existence is meaningless.


> just trying to find an answer to your doubt .


We've told you a million times you just arent listening.
See if this, in one form or another, sounds familiar -
"We don't believe/doubt/don't think there are gods because there is no preponderance of the evidence that one exists".


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## 660griz (Jan 10, 2019)

j_seph said:


> Go to your local library and check out a bible or spend a night in a hotel, you will find one there in the dresser drawer. Open it up and read Leviticus


I have read the entire Bible. What is your point? That God knew about food poisoning and some germs? What about the other stuff? What book is that in? Malaria, bubonic, etc. Any airborne micro ugly stuff?


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## Brother David (Jan 10, 2019)

660griz said:


> I have read the entire Bible. What is your point? That God knew about food poisoning and some germs? What about the other stuff? What book is that in? Malaria, bubonic, etc. Any airborne micro ugly stuff?


I asking for answers not complaints . Why the doubt ?


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## Brother David (Jan 10, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> Please go to any thread current or past and copy and paste here where an A/A said our existence is meaningless.
> 
> We've told you a million times you just arent listening.
> See if this, in one form or another, sounds familiar -
> "We don't believe/doubt/don't think there are gods because there is no preponderance of the evidence that one exists".


I listen , you evade and dodge .


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## Brother David (Jan 10, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> Please go to any thread current or past and copy and paste here where an A/A said our existence is meaningless.
> 
> We've told you a million times you just arent listening.
> See if this, in one form or another, sounds familiar -
> "We don't believe/doubt/don't think there are gods because there is no preponderance of the evidence that one exists".


I'm just trying to find answers if we're no different than a horse or a cow or a elephant why is there meaning ?


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## WaltL1 (Jan 10, 2019)

Brother David said:


> I listen , you evade and dodge .





> "We don't believe/doubt/don't think there are gods because there is no preponderance of the evidence that one exists".


If you find that evasive theres really nothing we can say to help you understand it.


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## Brother David (Jan 10, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> If you find that evasive theres really nothing we can say to help you understand it.


Apparently you did not read my post very well I was asking you why do you doubt you come back and ask me why is life meaningless .


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## WaltL1 (Jan 10, 2019)

Brother David said:


> I'm just trying to find answers if we're no different than a horse or a cow or a elephant why is there meaning ?


Does a horse that is used to rehabilitate a disable person have "meaning"?
How about a cow that a kid has a pet? Any meaning?
An elephant that protects its young? Meaning?


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## WaltL1 (Jan 10, 2019)

Brother David said:


> Apparently you did not read my post very well I was asking you why do you doubt you come back and ask me why is life meaningless .


Read it all again. Slowly.


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## Brother David (Jan 10, 2019)

I don't doubt because I see God in everything , the trees ,  the Stars , the moon , everything . I have felt God touch me . I have seen the Holy Spirit work through people . I have seen lives changed through God Your reason for doubting is because you read some article written by some guy , but you won't believe the Bible written by someone explain .


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## WaltL1 (Jan 10, 2019)

Brother David said:


> I don't doubt because I see God in everything , the trees ,  the Stars , the moon , everything . I have felt God touch me . I have seen the Holy Spirit work through people . I have seen lives changed through God Your reason for doubting is because you read some article written by some guy , but you won't believe the Bible written by someone explain .


Harry Potter was written by someone.
I don't believe he exists either.
When there is a preponderance of the evidence that Harry Potter exists, I will reconsider.


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## Brother David (Jan 10, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> Harry Potter was written by someone.
> I don't believe he exists either.
> When there is a preponderance of the evidence that Harry Potter exists, I will reconsider.


An avoidance not a answer .


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## WaltL1 (Jan 10, 2019)

Brother David said:


> An avoidance not a answer .


You write down the answers you will understand, pick one and go with it.


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## Brother David (Jan 10, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> You write down the answers you will understand, pick one and go with it.


Because it's so much easier for you to live your life the way you want instead of the rules laid down by God therefore you choose not to believe.


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## bullethead (Jan 10, 2019)

Brother David said:


> Since our point of Interest has moved from beliefs to doubt I have a question about doubt. I doubt that very many in our atheist and agnostic Community ever humble themselves before someone therefore  that's why they don't believe in a creator . Most people who've I've ever spoke with that had this point of view only believe in infinite answers for people who they consider higher authorities . If you will notice in the above sentence I use the word people in that instant they look for people to for their answers. I seriously doubt they've ever given any consideration to their answer against the Bible they State people wrote it therefore it must be wrong but yet they believe other articles written by people. There's doubt in all things but we have to do is humble ourself and Trust .
> If we are here for a meaningless existence why have birthdays , why have funerals why even be concerned about one another if it's a meaningless existence. I doubt that any in the atheist and agnostic Community have ever given the thought that the reason they doubt is because they want control of their own existence .
> In no way am I trying to stay the exact truth just trying to find an answer to your doubt .
> 
> Excuse all typos and punctuation , on my phone again .


2nd sentence of yours removes all of my doubt that you have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about. 
Your replies to Walt confirms it.


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## Brother David (Jan 10, 2019)

bullethead said:


> 2nd sentence of yours removes all of my doubt that you have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about.
> Your replies to Walt confirms it.


Still avoidance no answers . Dodge an evade instead of answers .


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## ambush80 (Jan 10, 2019)

Brother David said:


> Since our point of Interest has moved from beliefs to doubt I have a question about doubt. I doubt that very many in our atheist and agnostic Community ever humble themselves before someone therefore  that's why they don't believe in a creator .



How big is the sample size that you're basing this statement on?  I would say that one of the most common tendencies that atheists have, and I know a good many, is that they frequently and quite easily admit that they don't know about stuff that they don't know about.  That seems like humility to me.

I would bet that an atheist would be more likely to click on a link that a Christian provided to read than a believer would to an atheist link.  How many times have we read "I don't need to read anything.  I only need One Book to tell me what is true"?



Brother David said:


> Most people who've I've ever spoke with that had this point of view only believe in infinite answers for people who they consider higher authorities . If you will notice in the above sentence I use the word people in that instant they look for people to for their answers. I seriously doubt they've ever given any consideration to their answer against the Bible they State people wrote it therefore it must be wrong but yet they believe other articles written by people. There's doubt in all things but we have to do is humble ourself and Trust .



Most atheists and agnostics (and again, I know many. How many do you know?), are skeptics.  They are unlikely to call even well established scientific principles absolutely true, much less new ones like String Theory or Multiverse Theory.  No one here on this message board would say that Evolution as we understand it is absolutely true.  They would probably say "It's the best explanation that we have now".

_"I seriously doubt they've ever given any consideration to their answer against the Bible "_

Do you really believe this?   That means that you don't believe that any of these former Christians were ever REALLY Christians.  This means that you don't think any of the people here have ever read the Bible or any material relating to it.  I don't think the Bible is wrong because it was written by men.  I think it's wrong because it makes supernatural claims that are unfounded. That's the starting point.  The snowball of doubt builds off of that.



Brother David said:


> If we are here for a meaningless existence why have birthdays , why have funerals why even be concerned about one another if it's a meaningless existence.



I understand the need for rituals.  I understand why they're important.  I've seen many explanations of why we created rituals around many of our most significant life experiences, funerals, birthdays, weddings, eating, and some of them make more sense than others.  Those rituals reinforce the notion that there is deep meaning in those occasions but the meaning need not be supernatural.  If those occasions have meaning because of something supernatural, then make a case for why it must be so.



Brother David said:


> I doubt that any in the atheist and agnostic Community have ever given the thought that the reason they doubt is because they want control of their own existence .
> In no way am I trying to stay the exact truth just trying to find an answer to your doubt .



On the contrary, many reformed believers will tell you that one of the biggest difficulties that they faced when they shed their religion was they had to abandon the notion that "someone was at the helm".  Imagine how scared you would be to think that there's no God that cares about you and influences everything that happens in your life.  When bad things happen there is no "Ultimate good' planned for it.  Imagine how alone you would feel.  Imagine if all the bad you do is on you and you alone and that there's no one to forgive you and wash away your sins.  YOU have to make the wrongs you have committed right, the rest you have to live with, and toss and turn at night over.  It's a great burden.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 10, 2019)

Brother David said:


> Because it's so much easier for you to live your life the way you want instead of the rules laid down by God therefore you choose not to believe.


You stick with that.
Completely ignore, if you haven't already, this -


> "We don't believe/doubt/don't think there are gods because there is no preponderance of the evidence that one exists".


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## bullethead (Jan 10, 2019)

Brother David said:


> Still avoidance no answers . Dodge an evade instead of answers .


There is no way to answer idiotic statements like your 2nd sentence that states:
  "I doubt that very many in our atheist and agnostic Community ever humble themselves before someone therefore that's why they don't believe in a creator."
IS THAT A QUESTION?
I am addressing that particular ignorant statement.
YOU are the one evading and dodging. 

Your problem is comprehension due to the intentional lack of research because you convince yourself of things based off of your own thoughts instead of researching for actual facts. You make statements like that based off of your own thoughts, and you admit it.

Can you back up what you said with ANY examples of an atheist or agnostic never humbling themselves in front of someone?
No, you can't and won't.  You just cannot get it in your one sided brain that non believers and or people who believe differently are alike believers in dang near every other way EXCEPT a belief in god. They love, they hate , they cry, they laugh, they are happy, they are sad, they stay with the same woman since their teens, they get divorced and remarried. They do and are like YOU Bro, you just cannot comprehend that you are not any more special or stand on any higher pedestal. Wise up.


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## bullethead (Jan 10, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> You stick with that.
> Completely ignore, if you haven't already, this -


He doesn't even know how to have a conversation, how can we expect him to comprehend what he reads from us and actually acknowledge it? If he did, he would literally have nothing to say because we gave him a specific answer to his specific question.
He is yet again put in his place and his "gotcha" moment is ruined, so he continues on acting as if he didnt read the answer.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 10, 2019)

bullethead said:


> He doesn't even know how to have a conversation, how can we expect him to comprehend what he reads from us and actually acknowledge it? If he did, he would literally have nothing to say because we gave him a specific answer to his specific question.
> He is yet again put in his place and his "gotcha" moment is ruined, so he continues on acting as if he didnt read the answer.


I'm stumped 
Bro D asks a question.
Give him a clear, concise answer (repeatedly).
A couple of posts later he's wondering what the answer is after either ignoring or not believing the answer you have repeatedly given and whats worse, then claims you are evading the question.
Not sure what else I/we can do.


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## ambush80 (Jan 10, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> I'm stumped
> Bro D asks a question.
> Give him a clear, concise answer (repeatedly).
> A couple of posts later he's wondering what the answer is after either ignoring or not believing the answer you have repeatedly given and whats worse, then claims you are evading the question.
> Not sure what else I/we can do.


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## Brother David (Jan 10, 2019)

Again turning the blame back on me is not a concise or precise answer I am very very easily able to read what you post and comprehended what you write is you point the blame back at me Ambush actually answer the question congratulations


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## bullethead (Jan 10, 2019)

Brother David said:


> Again turning the blame back on me is not a concise or precise answer I am very very easily able to read what you post and comprehended what you write is you point the blame back at me Ambush actually answer the question congratulations


If what you say is true, you would have not replied as many times as you have the ways you have.
You got your answers, just because they are not the answers you wanted is of no consequence.


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## Spotlite (Jan 10, 2019)

Brother David said:


> I don't doubt because I see God in everything , the trees ,  the Stars , the moon , everything . I have felt God touch me . I have seen the Holy Spirit work through people . I have seen lives changed through God Your reason for doubting is because you read some article written by some guy , but you won't believe the Bible written by someone explain .


I can’t speak for all atheist, agnostic or any other non believers.....

But if it helps, the one’s I’ve personally dealt with are not doubtful because they’re not humble or read an article. 

Keep in mind, the Ancient Greek would view you and I as atheist because we didn’t believe in their gods.

Just swap places for a second, if you were asked questions by a Muslim, are you going to read just his Quran with a humble heart and “just have faith” in it? 

That’s where “we” are at.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 10, 2019)

Brother David said:


> Again turning the blame back on me is not a concise or precise answer I am very very easily able to read what you post and comprehended what you write is you point the blame back at me Ambush actually answer the question congratulations


I didn't say you couldn't read.
I didn't say you couldn't comprehend.
I said -


> either ignoring or not believing the answer you have repeatedly given


Im not typing with disappearing ink. Its all still there for you to see.


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## jbogg (Jan 11, 2019)

Doubt is not only normal, but it is required for Faith to be necessary.  
2 + 2 = 4.  We know this to be fact.  Easily proven, and no faith required.  There is no need for faith unless there is also some amount of doubt.  This was paraphrased from John Ortburg’s book “Faith and Doubt”.  I struggle with my faith every day, but this understanding allows me to sleep a little better.


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## Brother David (Jan 11, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> I can’t speak for all atheist, agnostic or any other non believers.....
> 
> But if it helps, the one’s I’ve personally dealt with are not doubtful because they’re not humble or read an article.
> 
> ...


My I suggest a study on John 3:22-36


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## Brother David (Jan 11, 2019)

jbogg said:


> Doubt is not only normal, but it is required for Faith to be necessary.
> 2 + 2 = 4.  We know this to be fact.  Easily proven, and no faith required.  There is no need for faith unless there is also some amount of doubt.  This was paraphrased from John Ortburg’s book “Faith and Doubt”.  I struggle with my faith every day, but this understanding allows me to sleep a little better.


Christ ask Thomas to put his hand in his side , this was to remove doubt . It's ok to have doubt if it leads to a greater examination of your God/Faith .


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## Spotlite (Jan 11, 2019)

Brother David said:


> My I suggest a study on John 3:22-36



Are you “evading” my question???? Lol

Let me ask a similar one - have you ever been witnessed to or approached by another religion or denomination that taught a different doctrine??? Did you humble yourself and read only their material? Or do you have a reason other than being humble or doubtful that you were not converted to them?

My only hope was to see if you could realize that just our word and our scripture to the non believers mean about as much as the Muslims word and their scriptures do to us.

I believe you questioned a man’s humbling as the reason for "doubt"......Carry on.


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## 660griz (Jan 11, 2019)

Brother David said:


> I asking for answers not complaints . Why the doubt ?


You call it complaint. I call it another reason for doubt.
I assume when you ask for an answer, you would read them. 

There are many reasons I don't believe in any gods. I don't have doubt. Doubt would mean I was uncertain about the existence of a god. 

You say the proof is all around me that God exist. I say, the proof is all around me that God does not exist.


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## Brother David (Jan 11, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> Are you “evading” my question???? Lol
> 
> Let me ask a similar one - have you ever been witnessed to or approached by another religion or denomination that taught a different doctrine??? Did you humble yourself and read only their material?
> 
> ...



Absolutely have . Didn't realize it was question . The Jehovah witnesses are forbidden to visit my . I converted one of their elders . I am humble when need be and I clear the temple when needed . God didn't call us weak , rather meek .
Humbling yourself before man is easier than humbling yourself before God . Man classification of humility and God's are completely different .
I didn't ask have you ever humbled yourself before man . I asked have you ever humbled yourself before God . Hebrews 12:5 tells us it is impossible to please God without Faith. In my study the only way to come to a point of unwavering faith is first to FEAR GOD , HUMBLE YOURSELF , AND WALK ACCORDINGLY . 
This all hinges on humility , I am nothing without the God of the universe as my Savior . Love the Lord thy God with ALL your Heart , Soul and Mind and your neighbor as yourself .
The reason I challenge on Faith instead of redirect is out of Love . Christ words of many are called but few are Chosen comes to mind . I have prayed that one day through my challenge to explore and yes even anger if necessary ( didn't Christ anger Paul ) that those who don't believe will search their hearts and themselves these deep questions , why do I doubt so deeply . 
We have become a word where if you challenge someone your hateful . I am so grateful that I was Challenged by a Pastor Friend of mine . I was so angry when he questioned my lifestyle . I didn't understand what he was questioning , it wasn't my lifestyle it was my future . When I realized that by challenging me empowered me , I became so thankful that I still thank God for him daily .
Don't run from my challenges , don't redirect or evade . Seek , humble ask .
If ask or state emphatically I will use exclamation points ! If ask using periods I am simply trying to expand your range of thinking . 
I intentionally avoid questions of entrapment ,it didn't take me long to catch on (!)


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## Spotlite (Jan 11, 2019)

Brother David said:


> Absolutely have . Didn't realize it was question . The Jehovah witnesses are forbidden to visit my . I converted one of their elders . I am humble when need be and I clear the temple when needed . God didn't call us weak , rather meek .
> Humbling yourself before man is easier than humbling yourself before God . Man classification of humility and God's are completely different .
> I didn't ask have you ever humbled yourself before man . I asked have you ever humbled yourself before God . Hebrews 12:5 tells us it is impossible to please God without Faith. In my study the only way to come to a point of unwavering faith is first to FEAR GOD , HUMBLE YOURSELF , AND WALK ACCORDINGLY .
> This all hinges on humility , I am nothing without the God of the universe as my Savior . Love the Lord thy God with ALL your Heart , Soul and Mind and your neighbor as yourself .
> ...


Understood, it was not an entrapment question...........it was a self examination question.............. but................


> I asked have you ever humbled yourself before God


As of right now.........."they" the Atheist /Agnostic don't know a God to be humble to.



> The Jehovah witnesses are forbidden to visit my


Sort of my previous point.


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## bullethead (Jan 11, 2019)

Many, if not all Atheists, and most Agnostics THAT FREQUENT THE AAA were once Christians. 
The accusations from guess work and bible study suggestions are both equally weak as means to figure out and convert.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 11, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> Understood, it was not an entrapment question...........it was a self examination question.............. but................
> 
> As of right now.........."they" the Atheist /Agnostic don't know a God to be humble to.
> 
> ...


And don't forget, most of the A/As here were believers for longer than we've been A/As.

And Bullet just beat me to that point 

On a side note, you don't know what humble is until you've been to confession (I was Catholic).


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## bullethead (Jan 11, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> I didn't say you couldn't read.
> I didn't say you couldn't comprehend.
> I said -
> 
> Im not typing with disappearing ink. Its all still there for you to see.


I was the one who said that he couldn't comprehend what he reads because if he actually could he would know our background stories which he doesn't. We constantly remind him of the same things over and over and he just still goes on thread after thread, post after post making guesses based upon NONE of the information which he was given. Like an Etch A Sketch. His slate is wiped clean from post to post. 

The posts above this are prime examples of both you and I AGAIN telling him something that any normal person would remember and reply accordingly.

He either cannot comprehend... which to that he denies. So it narrows down to he flat out Refuses to acknowledge the information that he was given and continues on just to make an already refuted and useless point. That is just being Wilfully Ignorant.
Or possibly, but highly doubtful, he has a condition which needs to be addressed so it helps in other aspects of his life outside of here.


----------



## Spotlite (Jan 11, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> And don't forget, most of the A/As here were believers for longer than we've been A/As.
> 
> And Bullet just beat me to that point
> 
> On a side note, you don't know what humble is until you've been to confession (I was Catholic).


Laying aside the argument of what is "the truth", and what is not.........I think many times we Christians forget, or fail to consider the multitude of options out there that others must consider to determine what that truth might or might not be.


----------



## ambush80 (Jan 11, 2019)

Brother David said:


> Again turning the blame back on me is not a concise or precise answer I am very very easily able to read what you post and comprehended what you write is you point the blame back at me Ambush actually answer the question congratulations



I asked some questions, too.  Will you answer them?


----------



## j_seph (Jan 11, 2019)

bullethead said:


> Many, if not all Atheists, and most Agnostics THAT FREQUENT THE AAA were once Christians.
> The accusations from guess work and bible study suggestions are both equally weak as means to figure out and convert.


Were they Christians or were they just religious? Christianity is a relationship that God has established with His children. If you were Christian then you would have had that relationship as they would have. Thus today you would be talking about how real he is vs how unreal he is.


----------



## WaltL1 (Jan 11, 2019)

bullethead said:


> I was the one who said that he couldn't comprehend what he reads because if he actually could he would know our background stories which he doesn't. We constantly remind him of the same things over and over and he just still goes on thread after thread, post after post making guesses based upon NONE of the information which he was given. Like an Etch A Sketch. His slate is wiped clean from post to post.
> 
> The posts above this are prime examples of both you and I AGAIN telling him something that any normal person would remember and reply accordingly.
> 
> ...


Brother Sketch? 
I think its mostly a matter of his preconceived notions are so dominate in his thoughts that nothing else gets through.
Don't believe in God because no gods have been proven to exist? No it cant be that it must be this......


----------



## ky55 (Jan 11, 2019)

Brother David said:


> Absolutely have . Didn't realize it was question . The Jehovah witnesses are forbidden to visit my . I converted one of their elders .



Bro D, this is the first time in my life I’ve heard a preacher claim credit for converting anybody. 
Your humility is overwhelming.


----------



## WaltL1 (Jan 11, 2019)

j_seph said:


> Were they Christians or were they just religious? Christianity is a relationship that God has established with His children. If you were Christian then you would have had that relationship as they would have. Thus today you would be talking about how real he is vs how unreal he is.


That is such an old, tired argument.
Im betting you would readily admit that relationships that start out glorious and wonderous and solid and lasts for years ………. don't always end up that way for various reasons.


----------



## WaltL1 (Jan 11, 2019)

ky55 said:


> Bro D, this is the first time in my life I’ve heard a preacher claim credit for converting anybody.
> Your humility is overwhelming.


No glory to God for that conversion apparently......


----------



## ky55 (Jan 11, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> No glory to God for that conversion apparently......



None....
And now the entire JW denomination fears his wrath.


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## Spotlite (Jan 11, 2019)

ky55 said:


> None....
> And now the entire JW denomination fears his wrath.


I once had a Boxer that I know 4 feared lol
It was hilarious, when all 4 jumped back in the car it sounded like only one door shutting 
I got put on the list!!


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## WaltL1 (Jan 11, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> I once had a Boxer that I know 4 feared lol
> It was hilarious, when all 4 jumped back in the car it sounded like only one door shutting
> I got put on the list!!


----------



## bullethead (Jan 11, 2019)

j_seph said:


> Were they Christians or were they just religious? Christianity is a relationship that God has established with His children. If you were Christian then you would have had that relationship as they would have. Thus today you would be talking about how real he is vs how unreal he is.


You have the information DIRECTLY in front of you, and yet you question it because you cannot fathom anyone that used to be just like you regarding God/Jesus , that now is not.
I am proof that your thoughts and claims are wrong.


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## j_seph (Jan 11, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> That is such an old, tired argument.
> Im betting you would readily admit that relationships that start out glorious and wonderous and solid and lasts for years ………. don't always end up that way for various reasons.


If you had a relationship, doesn't it take 2? Thus how can you make the statement about a relationship if there was only one? To say you had a relationship at one time, if that is what you are saying by this post.....................it would contradiction to your current view.


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## j_seph (Jan 11, 2019)

bullethead said:


> You have the information DIRECTLY in front of you, and yet you question it because you cannot fathom anyone that used to be just like you regarding God/Jesus , that now is not.
> I am proof that your thoughts and claims are wrong.


See reply to Walt, you never had a relationship with the Father nor Christ, or any other God that you try to place in that! It takes 2, you and him for there to have been a relationship then you would have to admit there is a father in heaven. Unless your relationship you had was a single relationship where you were only religious.


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## bullethead (Jan 11, 2019)

j_seph said:


> See reply to Walt, you never had a relationship with the Father nor Christ, or any other God that you try to place in that! It takes 2, you and him for there to have been a relationship then you would have to admit there is a father in heaven. Unless your relationship you had was a single relationship where you were only religious.


At one time I did admit that there was a father in heaven, the bible was his word, jesus was my savior and that I could see gods works all around me.
Again, I told the stories many many many many times in here over the years that told how I used to believe and worship to why and how I slowly did not.
You are right, it takes two. I agree with that.
I found out there was only ever me.
I trust me more than you.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 11, 2019)

j_seph said:


> See reply to Walt, you never had a relationship with the Father nor Christ, or any other God that you try to place in that! It takes 2, you and him for there to have been a relationship then you would have to admit there is a father in heaven. Unless your relationship you had was a single relationship where you were only religious.


By your analogy anyone who ever divorced their spouse was never really truly married because all of the trust, good times, love, caring, lust never existed previously simply because they split 20 years later.

Your arm chair therapist diagnosis is awful.


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## j_seph (Jan 11, 2019)

bullethead said:


> By your analogy anyone who ever divorced their spouse was never really truly married because all of the trust, good times, love, caring, lust never existed previously simply because they split 20 years later.
> 
> Your arm chair therapist diagnosis is awful.


By my analogy if it were a spouse, good or bad times there were still "2". Could not divorce a spouse if there was not 2 of us, could not have a spouse if there were not 2 of us, could not be married if there was not 2 of us. It takes more than 1 to have a relationship of any kind. Thus again if their had been a relationship you were ever in with God then you would have to admit that he is real! There could have never been a relationship there to begin with, so you were religious or there was a relationship and you walked away from it and refuse to admit that he is real and that you left him.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 11, 2019)

j_seph said:


> If you had a relationship, doesn't it take 2? Thus how can you make the statement about a relationship if there was only one? To say you had a relationship at one time, if that is what you are saying by this post.....................it would contradiction to your current view.


I was a Christian. With Christian beliefs. That includes believing there was God above and that I had a relationship with him.


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## j_seph (Jan 11, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> I was a Christian. With Christian beliefs. That includes believing there was God above and that I had a relationship with him.


So did you have a personal relationship with him or not? From what you said you only thought you did. Sadly, there are a lot of false salvation's from false doctrines out there.


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## bullethead (Jan 11, 2019)

j_seph said:


> By my analogy if it were a spouse, good or bad times there were still "2". Could not divorce a spouse if there was not 2 of us, could not have a spouse if there were not 2 of us, could not be married if there was not 2 of us. It takes more than 1 to have a relationship of any kind. Thus again if their had been a relationship you were ever in with God then you would have to admit that he is real! There could have never been a relationship there to begin with, so you were religious or there was a relationship and you walked away from it and refuse to admit that he is real and that you left him.


Ok j_seph, Ill play along...
Luckily for me I have been with the same woman for 34 years since I was 15 years old, so I cannot use myself as an example.
But, if you want to compare a god to people you must produce a god.

I can still find pictures of my mother and father together when they were married. None since their divorce. 
Two people actually EXIST before and after.

The "relationship" you are taking about is no different that the relationship we ALL had with Santa and the Easter Bunny, tooth fairy and the elementary 
school  "girlfriend" who you've never met but told everyone you had but couldn't produce because she lived "far away" too.

You are still  dabbling in make believe. I used to also. 
I figured it out and moved on.

If you want to prove me wrong then step up and show me this god. Period.

But get off this beat to death routine that anyone who isnt a believer now was never a "TRUE" believer before or that they were not a "REAL" Christian at one time.

You claim to be a true and real christian and you have a relationship with this God. You say there are Two of you....  Well bring him along to the Prom.  Sign him up as a forum member. Share a couple of fishing and hunting pics of you two together. 

Until then....I have to believe that you are wrong and your buddy is hanging around with Santa, The 6ft Rabbit, The Weirdo that collects kids teeth and is probably dating your old 3rd grade squeeze....


----------



## bullethead (Jan 11, 2019)

j_seph said:


> So did you have a personal relationship with him or not? From what you said you only thought you did. Sadly, there are a lot of false salvation's from false doctrines out there.


Like you, Walt and I THOUGHT we had a relationship with something that does not exist. We were also able to convince ourselves of the absurd and a lot of it had to do with family and a culture that goes along with it. 
But we do not anymore because we realize that there was never anyone or anything else than One, which was us as individuals.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 11, 2019)

Bottom line j_seph is that your god is as good as your proof, not your claims.
I have said it a thousand times and obviously it still needs to be said.
If your god is the definition of TRUTH it would not be so hard to prove.
Your job should be easy.


----------



## WaltL1 (Jan 11, 2019)

j_seph said:


> So did you have a personal relationship with him or not? From what you said you only thought you did. Sadly, there are a lot of false salvation's from false doctrines out there.


I will leave the "false salvations and false doctrines" arguments to you Christians.
I repeat -


> WaltL1 said:
> I was a Christian. With Christian beliefs. That includes believing there was God above and that I had a relationship with him.


Don't complicate it. Its really simple.
I thought I did.
I believed I did.
I knew I did.
I had faith I did.
You can pick one or all of those ^. They all applied.


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## Spotlite (Jan 11, 2019)

j_seph said:


> If you had a relationship, doesn't it take 2? Thus how can you make the statement about a relationship if there was only one? To say you had a relationship at one time, if that is what you are saying by this post.....................it would contradiction to your current view.


While I understand the argument........I don’t know if it’s really an argument.

How do we get around those that done works in his name but he says he never knew them? 

Technically you’re right, there was no relationship, but for them, it was. A lot of marriages are that way as well.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 11, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> While I understand the argument........I don’t know if it’s really an argument.
> 
> How do we get around those that done works in his name but he says he never knew them?
> 
> Technically you’re right, there was no relationship, but for them, it was. A lot of marriages are that way as well.


That argument is always made for all gods, figures of folklore, and people.

Only one of those three actually are proven to exist and actually are applicable to that type of argument.

Calvin and Hobbes.
One exists only in the other's mind. In reality its a kid and a stuffed tiger. And at least there actually is a stuffed tiger to show for it.


----------



## Spotlite (Jan 11, 2019)

bullethead said:


> That argument is always made for all gods, figures of folklore, and people.
> 
> Only one of those three actually are proven to exist and actually are applicable to that type of argument.


Understood. It’s hard not to argue it, but I’m not convinced it’s a legitimate one to have. 

I’ve often wondered that if there are people that will ultimately hear “I never knew you”, why should we find it strange that there are some saying there’s nothing there because they’re not getting anything back from God?


----------



## bullethead (Jan 11, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> Understood. It’s hard not to argue it, but I’m not convinced it’s a legitimate one to have.
> 
> I’ve often wondered that if there are people that will ultimately hear “I never knew you”, why should we find it strange that there are some saying there’s nothing there because they’re not getting anything back from God?


I think it is possible that some may hear "I never knew you".
I think that the possibility exists that we all could hear "I know each and every one of you, but you all thought, believed and worshipped incorrectly, and now you pay".
It stands to reason then a possibility exists that we all have it wrong and may be judged by our lifetime of actions.
I believe more than all the others above that All will hear nothing from anyone or anything.


----------



## WaltL1 (Jan 11, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> While I understand the argument........I don’t know if it’s really an argument.
> 
> How do we get around those that done works in his name but he says he never knew them?
> 
> Technically you’re right, there was no relationship, but for them, it was. A lot of marriages are that way as well.


When I was a believer I would have told you theres no possible way that you or j_seph could determine that. I would have told you only God could determine that.


----------



## Spotlite (Jan 11, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> When I was a believer I would have told you theres no possible way that you or j_seph could determine that. I would have told you only God could determine that.


And I would agree with you 100%. There are fruits of the spirit and you know a tree by the fruit it bears, but still, only God would know for sure. And in the case where he never knew them, I would venture to believe there was no relationship.

That’s one area I’m learning to stay away from.


----------



## Israel (Jan 11, 2019)

bullethead said:


> That argument is always made for all gods, figures of folklore, and people.
> 
> Only one of those three actually are proven to exist and actually are applicable to that type of argument.
> 
> ...


Always one of my favorites:




"It take one to know one"

My only agreement in any of this game is that the same thing telling you you are right and telling me I am right is a complete fabrication.


"Sanity is not statistical." George Orwell

Jesus knows the rules of the game. The one who first resorts _to thing_ as support is already lost. Truth is its own support. The next play can only be to resort to thing to remove Him.


----------



## Brother David (Jan 11, 2019)

ky55 said:


> Bro D, this is the first time in my life I’ve heard a preacher claim credit for converting anybody.
> Your humility is overwhelming.


Thank you .


----------



## Brother David (Jan 11, 2019)

ky55 said:


> Bro D, this is the first time in my life I’ve heard a preacher claim credit for converting anybody.
> Your humility is overwhelming.


I appreciate your fishing expedition , but there not biting today . If your that carnal I will remain on shore ! 
But just for a tidbit of info Christ did tell the disciples that I give you the same power that I have .


----------



## Brother David (Jan 11, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> And don't forget, most of the A/As here were believers for longer than we've been A/As.
> 
> And Bullet just beat me to that point
> 
> On a side note, you don't know what humble is until you've been to confession (I was Catholic).


Thanks for making my point that you decided to live by your rules are not God's


----------



## ky55 (Jan 11, 2019)

Brother David said:


> But just for a tidbit of info Christ did tell the disciples that I give you the same power that I have .



And there we have it-
Straight from a self-appointed disciple.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 11, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> And I would agree with you 100%. There are fruits of the spirit and you know a tree by the fruit it bears, but still, only God would know for sure. And in the case where he never knew them, I would venture to believe there was no relationship.
> 
> That’s one area I’m learning to stay away from.


Hard to believe a god wouldn't know anything or anyone. Purposely ignore them and not include them yes.


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## Spotlite (Jan 11, 2019)

bullethead said:


> Hard to believe a god wouldn't know anything or anyone. Purposely ignore them and not include them yes.


I guess it’s how you view “never knew” them.

Here, I view the “know / knew” as a relationship, as in Joseph knew her not until........not as the knowing / knowledge of who Mary was.

But I’m open for clarification.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 11, 2019)

Brother David said:


> Thanks for making my point that you decided to live by your rules are not God's


What in the world are you talking about?


----------



## WaltL1 (Jan 11, 2019)

> bullethead said:
> Hard to believe a god wouldn't know anything or anyone. Purposely ignore them and not include them yes.





Spotlite said:


> I guess it’s how you view “never knew” them.
> 
> Here, I view the “know / knew” as a relationship, as in Joseph knew her not until........not as the knowing / knowledge of who Mary was.
> 
> But I’m open for clarification.


I can see/get/understand both of your views on "never knew you" on this one.
Bullet is viewing it as literally "never knew you".
Spot is viewing it as "yeah I know you but talk to the hand".


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## Brother David (Jan 11, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> I guess it’s how you view “never knew” them.
> 
> Here, I view the “know / knew” as a relationship, as in Joseph knew her not until........not as the knowing / knowledge of who Mary was.
> 
> But I’m open for clarification.


Spotlite as long as you take the bait they will continue to fish .


----------



## Brother David (Jan 11, 2019)

ky55 said:


> And there we have it-
> Straight from a self-appointed disciple.


Thanks for recognizing that I am called by God . Maybe now is your chance to repent ask Jesus Christ into your life and I claim two converts to my witnessing .


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## Brother David (Jan 11, 2019)

ky55 said:


> And there we have it-
> Straight from a self-appointed disciple.


Thanks for recognizing that I am called by God . Maybe now is your chance to repent ask Jesus Christ into your life and I claim to converts to my witnessing .


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## Brother David (Jan 11, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> What in the world are you talking about?


Your doubt is a directly related to your eating of fruit . Eve suffered from the same weakness and I to once did . Nobody was going to tell me what or how to live . 

Half the battle to recovery is admitting .


----------



## WaltL1 (Jan 11, 2019)

Brother David said:


> Your doubt is a directly related to your eating of fruit . Eve suffered from the same weakness and I to once did . Nobody was going to tell me what or how to live .
> 
> Half the battle to recovery is admitting .


Are you on crack rock?


----------



## Spotlite (Jan 11, 2019)

Brother David said:


> Spotlite as long as you take the bait they will continue to fish .



Who says I’m not doing the fishing?

Do you think it’s too much to ask for to give a few explanations with your post rather than accusations? You can’t come off the wrong way and bulldoze religion on anyone. That’s the fastest way to get a deaf ear. And I know all of the “boldness” scriptures..........and the wise as a serpent, harmless as a dove and meek ones too....

Walt and bullethead asked you some legitimate questions.


----------



## ambush80 (Jan 11, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> Are you on crack rock?



You made me laugh at the 'puter.


----------



## Spotlite (Jan 11, 2019)

Brother David said:


> Thanks for making my point that you decided to live by your rules are not God's



See this is my point. Your response to Walt is an accusation. How do you know that Walt just decided to live by his rules? How do know he has not yet been drawn??

John 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him......

I’m willing to bet that most atheist / agnostic are willing to give God a shot, if God gave them something to go with. They’re not anti-God.

Since your method is not going smoothly, I’m just trying to help you out with things to consider with your comments that may be asked of you.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 11, 2019)

Brother David said:


> Spotlite as long as you take the bait they will continue to fish .


Spotlite is not a fish that we are trying to "fool".
He is a respected "regular" here and we find his input valuable whether we agree or disagree with him.
Capiche?


----------



## bullethead (Jan 11, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> See this is my point. Your response to Walt is an accusation. How do you know that Walt just decided to live by his rules? How do know he has not yet been drawn??
> 
> John 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him......
> 
> ...


My heart grew 3 sizes this day...


----------



## Israel (Jan 12, 2019)

bullethead said:


> Hard to believe a god wouldn't know anything or anyone. Purposely ignore them and not include them yes.


Would it be as hard for you to imagine/believe how we as folks dealing with one another experience it? I don't think so.
But, am I wrong?

How deep are you? I? Any of us?

I get a hint of these things daily. Have you ever had your hints confirmed? (it's even salient this exchange takes place on a thread called "Doubt")

I don't know what sort of relationships others have on here with their spouses. It's no less salient (at least to me) that of the many, the one whom I believe to not be married presently, Walt, came the closest willing to engage on this point. It was in the matter of worship (whose definition was never established...is it singing songs? Making great protestations of faithfulness? Years devoted? Preaching? Bowing down, falling down, jumping up and down, rolling around? Praying?  A recall-able history of attendances? Rules of practice? A certain willing consciousness applied? It may include some, all, or perhaps?...none) 

Nevertheless Walt was able to see there is an "issue" needing addressed in _practice of worship _in the face of one who _already knows all_. It's the matter of sincerity. And sincerity particularly...of motive. This would be no matter at all if God, a god, or any god can be assigned the bin of complete artifice and/or dupe-ability. A grinning idol willing to be adorned with whatever we might festoon him. And made willing to wear a scowl toward whomever "true" worshipers decide are not willing to make the same _so called,_ sacrifices.

I mention spouses only because the very same thing in which I so marvel at the God I seek to worship in sincerity, shows me a similar thing to marvel at with my wife. And I mention hints because there has always been a hinting toward a reality of sorts that would be made plain. And made plain as the crux of a matter. Can I exist where I am both known..._and loved_? Can I...be there? Can there be such?

I can't make this matter of any consequence to anyone else. If Ambush is true, and I seek only to make my bag for the dragging of everyone else, and it is peculiar to me alone, then, nevertheless I am left with it. But I can't deny its fundamental particularity. If this wearing of "faces" is all and only a matter I am called to resolve as all, _or nothing_ of matter, again it falls only to me.

But, I have seen hints. I have seen them. We have discussed them as real things. Every man is free to say "but I didn't mean...that". Or..."that really is of no consequence". Even to such as the silly matter of an "Easter" dinner with family. Will the A/A wear the same face of zeal there, as is worn here? Will you (or any) declare there what has been plainly declared here? "There is no savior"?
Silly superstitions impede man's progress...away with all of it? (with which I do not disagree)

Some can argue "time and place, time and place", you don't know what makes for a civil man. No man would be expected to overturn his own hearth. Put what is nearest and dearest to him (such warmth) at risk. It would be an unkindness! The putting of "them" in the place of facing so very squarely what they profess as "their faith". "I wear _this face_ for family, because I love them...so"

But, matters of convenience cut both ways. As we hear regularly. "One is simply _a christian_ in this nation, because they are in this nation where it convenient to be so"
They merely take to it as a fish to water...no more, no less. Its simply the satisfaction of religious/superstitious bent, the convenient way, here, to have that particular itch, scratched. Let's see who is so eager about Jesus from a street corner in Tehran. Or Syria. Or Somalia. These are no less legitimately wondered over. Who has (do any?) a _consistent face_ in all? Or, does it not matter...at all?

But one would have to be a little foolish to think these matters are not of some import...especially to the so called "believer". Consistency. An integrity throughout of same substance...unmixed, unadulterated, untainted. Why "especially the believer"?
Well, because that's what we claim to see in Jesus Christ. No taint. Clean slate maintained. Unadulterated by matters of "one face here, one there". To the very extreme of sense of "I am what I speak"...there can be found no light between or outline of distinction between what is said and His substance. And I think one would also be a little foolish to believe even disciples don't do some exploring here, even being pressed to it (they may find) of their faith. "If you are a man who only says what you mean, and only means what you say...what then...are you saying, and what do _you_...mean? This sounds in some way, curiously...like doubt. Seeking _the meaning_...of Jesus Christ. 

Some might say...but shouldn't that be plainest of all to what claims His faith? Shouldn't His consistency be so obvious to all, and especially what claims Him, as none could ever escape this knowing?  (Why so many "denominations?) Would that be not much different than finding fault with Aristotle for not knowing atomic structure? For Moses Maimonides to be ignorant of germ theory? Things "always there"...but yet with structures not yet in place, built upon...that lead to a showing.

That it's God's work to build these things "in a man" to an end perceived of consistency throughout, a sincerity (if you will) previously not understood, though sensed...that weight and burden of "trying to be consistent" (I can fault none for not knowing that weight) is relieved. "If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free".

Free...of _trying to be sincere _in the presence of One that is completely familiar with man's insincerity and duplicity (or even _multiplicity_ of faces) worn as convenience. My wife loves me...and she knows me. In so many things and ways...she sees right through me. And stays. This I am made able to see as only the work of Christ, an ability to abide with, even those things with which she _in herself_ cannot abide.

To the man who thinks to himself in such a situation "what's not to love?", I am sorry for his wife. But such a man does not know what he may be straddling. He needs mercy, no less. For there is a great gulf between, though he thinks to easily straddle.

God, through Christ has prepared a place where I am both known...and loved. It remains a continuous marvel to me how a man can ...be there. The how of this "can be"...is found only in Jesus Christ. And seeking Him out for what He means.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 12, 2019)

Israel said:


> Would it be as hard for you to imagine/believe how we as folks dealing with one another experience it? I don't think so.
> But, am I wrong?
> 
> How deep are you? I? Any of us?
> ...


I have a hint that the god of the bible was then and is now limited to imagination and pen of the authors. It is confirmed daily in here.


----------



## ky55 (Jan 12, 2019)

Brother David said:


> Thanks for recognizing that I am called by God . Maybe now is your chance to repent ask Jesus Christ into your life and I claim two converts to my witnessing .



Bro D,
all you need to do to support your claims is provide evidence that a god has chosen you to do the things he can’t seem to do for himself, and that he has given you supernatural powers to perform miracles. 
If you are able to do that a lot of folks here will sit up and take notice.

Until then you are blowing smoke, passing the plate, and stroking your ego.


----------



## Israel (Jan 13, 2019)

bullethead said:


> I have a hint that the god of the bible was then and is now limited to imagination and pen of the authors. It is confirmed daily in here.


Is that worth exploring? That particular part that God is limited by what man can imagine of Him? In any of the things a man might consider to the extremes of his thoughts, God's ability, intents, God's willingness or lack thereof, God's knowing, God's...seeing. That's interesting, if only because the believer finds, not merely something different...but the opposite.

The believer discovers God sees far deeper than once he thought or could imagine, always understands in excess of his own understanding, and exceeds in every way all of that man's (believer's) ability to capture or contain Him in words. Or be contained by the limits of his own thoughts. And will? Man finds something completely apart from a will he has known in himself, a thing he has only known as subject to all vicissitudes.

But that is not a strangeness for the believer, for to whatever are the limits of his present understanding (and his limits in that) he has already accepted that...his own limitation. He has come to recognize sight as _allowance_, understanding as _allowance, _any and all perception and _conception, _no less, as allowance. Things once so easily presumed to himself as his inalienable source and submitted to the discretion of his own judgments...that is what begins to become _strange_ to him.

How strange this is _allowed _to appear to him is also by _allowance_. He cannot enter this at his will, he can neither study _enough, _pray nor entreat _enough, _practice _enough _(at least to any point he could even say or think of himself "I am devout" or "I was devout") to where he can confidently assert or imagine "I have earned from God" or God is placed in my debt here for such things. _All is gift._

Prayer, study, practice, and even most devout attention to lending of consciousness through whatever meditations avail nothing here (perhaps all those things of which worship was touched upon in discussion with Walt) if they are entered upon as form of commerce with God. For all these, even what may seem the most sublime in exercise, are given _as gift._

The_ who, how, what, when, and why _of God's rewarding is kept incorruptible in 
in-corruption. Yes, God knows all motive and intent. Whatever man may point to _as point _to which he believes God is in the owing for_ his devotion_, God presents Jesus Christ as His devotion, and even the most hardened soul learns (and will) it is _all that is unwise_ to seek to enter into horse trading with God. God's glory is there, God's appointment is there, God's choice and election is there, and all that is _for man, _is there. And all is appointed to His (Jesus Christ's) glory in earth.

To think God is ignorant to _a resistance_ is both foolhardy and laughable. Or that man might couch such in the most reasonable of terms to escape detection is, no less. The discovery of life and being_ as gift, _things once presumed to an inalienability by such as "I think, therefore _I am_",  as if man by his own thinking secures his being is just a parlor joke. He may even discover (as God wills) the experience in touching that place where both all of thinking and all of securing to one's self is denied. It's a place well beyond reason. Or, at least, man's ability to reason out from.

What may come adorning itself to parade as "doing the will of God" as if it has lent its will to God in service to and for another _must_ give way. These are among the things I sense most (and several of you) identify as religion and religious. What believes it can by act of its own will, will itself to God and His service.

Prisoners, however, may learn they can do nothing but occupy the place given them for lawful occupation. _As gift_. And so all of creation finds itself bowing, not of own will, nor desire, nor whatever corrupted form of thinking that would indicate to itself some form of innate goodness (or betterness), submission to a word.

Occupy till I come.

All is in observance of this, all is in subjection to this, all is bent...to this.
_It_ has no choice.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jan 13, 2019)

AceyFlyer said:


> My pastor is preaching out of Eph 5:14 this morning. It’s a good new year’s sermon. At the closing of the sermon our pastor announced that one of our long time members has pancreatic cancer and they are not sure how longer she has to live. It’s a small church and so the announcement was very traumatic to all of us, especially me cause I have been wondering if belief in Jesus really does give us eternal life. The lady has a wonderful attitude about the situation and a true peace that passes all understanding. What peace she has in her eternal security! I wonder if believing in Christ despite all the contractions, questions, mismatched theology and other things that really make no sense is worth it simply for the peace it brings when we or our loved ones and friends face death?
> Is this peace she has simply a false sense of psychological security or is it something much deeper? If I am not 100% sure that Jesus died for my sins will I still get into heaven? I sincerely struggle with these questions.  Maybe God is trying to speak to me about my doubt or maybe it is just life and timing.



Everyone has times where they dread the thought of death.  Even Christ asked if was possible to let “this cup pass from me”.


AceyFlyer said:


> My pastor is preaching out of Eph 5:14 this morning. It’s a good new year’s sermon. At the closing of the sermon our pastor announced that one of our long time members has pancreatic cancer and they are not sure how longer she has to live. It’s a small church and so the announcement was very traumatic to all of us, especially me cause I have been wondering if belief in Jesus really does give us eternal life. The lady has a wonderful attitude about the situation and a true peace that passes all understanding. What peace she has in her eternal security! I wonder if believing in Christ despite all the contractions, questions, mismatched theology and other things that really make no sense is worth it simply for the peace it brings when we or our loved ones and friends face death?
> Is this peace she has simply a false sense of psychological security or is it something much deeper? If I am not 100% sure that Jesus died for my sins will I still get into heaven? I sincerely struggle with these questions.  Maybe God is trying to speak to me about my doubt or maybe it is just life and timing.



Here's a few things I would say.  You have to make the decision, but there's ample enough evidence in the scriptures for you to do so.  Please keep in mind that you have posted this thread in the AAA forum.  You are not going to get very much support for the Christian belief here.  Some of these guys thrive on stripping people in situations such as the one you find yourself away from their faith.  

1) Either Christ is exactly who he said he was or he was a lunatic.  There's no middle ground here.  To that I would say: He is the ONLY one who has ever died and bodily rose again.  

2)Christ is either good for every promise he ever made or he is good for none.  Again, no middle ground.  

3) If you are not 100% sure Jesus died for your sins will you get into heaven.  That's a toughie.  First and foremost, you must understand that your getting into heaven is not dependent on what you have done, but what Christ did.  His death atoned for your sin. Period.  It's a gift.    All you have to do is accept it, accept him as your savior, repent of your sins and follow his lead from here on.  If you have done and are doing that, you are saved regardless of how you feel.  Again, your salvation is not a result of what you have done, but what Christ did, and what he did was good enough.  His resurrection is proof to you of that.

Why don't you speak to your pastor.  Like I said, everyone goes through this, everyone has doubt at times.  It's not a reflection of your salvation status.  Even John the Baptist and Christ wrestled with death.  John sent his disciples to ask Christ if he was truly the one after John HAD ALREADY PROCLAIMED HE WAS, and Christ asked if it was possible to "let this cup pass from me."


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## bullethead (Jan 13, 2019)

1. Elijah raised the son of the Zarephath widow from the dead (1 Kings 17:17-22).

2. Elisha raised the son of the Shunammite woman from the dead (2 Kings 4:32-35).

3. A man was raised from the dead when his body touched Elisha’s bones (2 Kings 13:20, 21).

4. Many saints rose from the dead at the resurrection of Jesus (Matt. 27:50-53).

5. Jesus rose from the dead (Matt. 28:5-8; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:5, 6).

6. Jesus raised the son of the widow of Nain from the dead (Luke 7:11-15).

7. Jesus raised the daughter of Jairus from the dead (Luke 8:41, 42, 49-55).

8. Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead (John 11:1-44).

9. Peter raised Dorcas from the dead (Acts 9:36-41).

10. Eutychus was raised from the dead by Paul (Acts 20:9, 10).

So besides  #4 & #5 , there were at least EIGHT people that were bodily raised from the dead.

If you know the history of the ancient cultures you would also know that Jesus was not a lunatic but just one of many over thousands of years that preached the way he did. The embellishments written long after he was dead made him into more than he even claimed.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 13, 2019)

bullethead said:


> 1. Elijah raised the son of the Zarephath widow from the dead (1 Kings 17:17-22).
> 
> 2. Elisha raised the son of the Shunammite woman from the dead (2 Kings 4:32-35).
> 
> ...



You are correct in the list of those who were raised from the dead.  I was trying to keep it simple.  What I should have said is “Jesus is the only one who foretold ( correctly) that he would rise from the dead after 3 days upon dying for our sins.  The fact that you have alluded to should not be missed: in that God is the One who raised them all.  Had Christ’s atonement for our sins not been deemed sufficient he WOULD NOT have been raised.  He was, thus it was.  It’s not an understatement when it’s said that all of Christianity rests on the resurrection.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jan 13, 2019)

bullethead said:


> 1. Elijah raised the son of the Zarephath widow from the dead (1 Kings 17:17-22).
> 
> 2. Elisha raised the son of the Shunammite woman from the dead (2 Kings 4:32-35).
> 
> ...



I’m sorry, but I can’t for the life of me think of ONE person throughout history who preached as Christ did.  There’s been many who claimed to be God from before the Pharohs down through David Koresh, but not one preached with his authority, message and not one exercised his power.  Even Josephus documented he performed miracles.


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## Spotlite (Jan 13, 2019)

bullethead said:


> 1. Elijah raised the son of the Zarephath widow from the dead (1 Kings 17:17-22).
> 
> 2. Elisha raised the son of the Shunammite woman from the dead (2 Kings 4:32-35).
> 
> ...


But why Jesus above the others? What is it about him that’s attracted so many for so long?

In order to pass stories to the next generation, wouldn’t people have to be able to connect somehow, other than Grandma said, to carry it on as true?

But more than just pass it on, actually live the story.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 13, 2019)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I’m sorry, but I can’t for the life of me think of ONE person throughout history who preached as Christ did.  There’s been many who claimed to be God from before the Pharohs down through David Koresh, but not one preached with his authority, message and not one exercised his power.  Even Josephus documented he performed miracles.


When you stop at one without researching for any others it is no surprise that you can't think of any others.
Your Josephus example has been disproven many, many No wait, MANY times in these threads already.
But, carry on with it.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 13, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> But why Jesus above the others? What is it about him that’s attracted so many for so long?
> 
> In order to pass stories to the next generation, wouldn’t people have to be able to connect somehow, other than Grandma said, to carry it on as true?
> 
> But more than just pass it on, actually live the story.


If you researched your own religions history you would not have to continually ask me and then dismiss what I say.

By your standards what about ALL the people of many different cultures religions, social status, education, and profession who lived among and saw the supposed miracles, return from being dead and ascending into the sky and told no one, didnt write a thing down or even stop to acknowledge ANY of it?
It isn't what is written 30,40,50 60 years later.
It is all about the silence as it supposedly happened.


----------



## Spotlite (Jan 13, 2019)

bullethead said:


> If you researched your own religions history you would not have to continually ask me and then dismiss what I say.
> 
> By your standards what about ALL the people of many different cultures religions, social status, education, and profession who lived among and saw the supposed miracles, return from being dead and ascending into the sky and told no one, didnt write a thing down or even stop to acknowledge ANY of it?
> It isn't what is written 30,40,50 60 years later.
> It is all about the silence as it supposedly happened.


Yea but there’s a disconnect in certain denominations trying to explain to another denomination what their religious history is. That’ll always be an issue with no resolve. My church theological historians and yours don’t agree.

I’m just curious that regardless of what history is, what makes Jesus more popular than the others.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 13, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> Yea but there’s a disconnect in certain denominations trying to explain to another denomination what their religious history is. That’ll always be an issue with no resolve. My church theological historians and yours don’t agree.
> 
> I’m just curious that regardless of what history is, what makes Jesus more popular than the others.



He is not more popular than others.

It took 300-400 years for Christianity to be deemed the official religion of the most powerful ruling nation at the time. The history of how that came about isn't disputed by any theological historians. Throughout history many gods were worshipped longer and if you go by percentage of people available,  Jesus isnt necessarily worshipped by more.

If you will notice, there has not been a single god throughout mankind that has made itself known to all of mankind. It is ALWAYS revealed to a  small "special" group of "favorites" with specific rules and those rules and people change as the religion grows. Which, just so happens to coincide with influence of whoever seems to be in military power at the time.

If you are talking about Church theological historians who continue to ignore new evidence in favor of continuing to go with say, The Writings of Josephus, as some sort of proof despite those being disproven as vague later additions by YOUR Church leaders...then yes I can see why there is a difference.


----------



## Spotlite (Jan 13, 2019)

bullethead said:


> He is not more popular than others.
> 
> It took 300-400 years for Christianity to be deemed the official religion of the most powerful ruling nation at the time. The history of how that came about isn't disputed by any theological historians. Throughout history many gods were worshipped longer and if you go by percentage of people available,  Jesus isnt necessarily worshipped by more.
> 
> ...


I guess that’s one way to consider it. May have taken a few hundred years to gain ground, but seems to attract the majority.

That was my main point - without something there more than a story of Jesus, you’d think it would be the opposite and really be a small group of people.

Even with “ignoring” and “additions” - seems like it would take more than that for long term retention.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 13, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> I guess that’s one way to consider it. May have taken a few hundred years to gain ground, but seems to attract the majority.
> 
> That was my main point - without something there more than a story of Jesus, you’d think it would be the opposite and really be a small group of people.
> 
> Even with “ignoring” and “additions” - seems like it would take more than that for long term retention.


What would have happened to Christianity had Constantine decided to go with something else?
More likely than not. It dies off.
One day All of Rome was worshipping one way, and something completely different the next. No god decided that.
Many religions have had thousands of years runs. Many constantly evolving during that time, many branching off into other things that are sort of like the original but they took the parts they liked, adopted a few others and left the parts they didn't like.
Your denomination is a branch, an offshoot and different from the original too. 
Divide up 40,000 and counting denominations and is it truly a majority??


----------



## bullethead (Jan 13, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> I guess that’s one way to consider it. May have taken a few hundred years to gain ground, but seems to attract the majority.
> 
> That was my main point - without something there more than a story of Jesus, you’d think it would be the opposite and really be a small group of people.
> 
> Even with “ignoring” and “additions” - seems like it would take more than that for long term retention.


Believe or die is not exactly an attraction.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 13, 2019)

bullethead said:


> What would have happened to Christianity had Constantine decided to go with something else?
> More likely than not. It dies off.
> One day All of Rome was worshipping one way, and something completely different the next. No god decided that.
> Many religions have had thousands of years runs. Many constantly evolving during that time, many branching off into other things that are sort of like the original but they took the parts they liked, adopted a few others and left the parts they didn't like.
> ...





> One day All of Rome was worshipping one way, and something completely different the next. No god decided that.


That's a very important point.
What happens when the dominant culture is no longer dominant?
The gods they worship, for the most part go with them.
Pagan gods, Roman gods, Native American gods...……..
Today, right now, at this very minute, why are people freaking out over Muslim influence in society, government etc?
Because it is and will change our culture over time? And with it will go the dominance of Christianity and its god...….
History. It repeats itself.


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## Spotlite (Jan 13, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> That's a very important point.
> What happens when the dominant culture is no longer dominant?
> The gods they worship, for the most part go with them.
> Pagan gods, Roman gods, Native American gods...……..
> ...


Most of the freaking out from the Muslims as we see them being promoted seem to be non religious related to us.....as an example -  the way their women are treated. But then again, that is their religion. That’s an interesting way of looking at it.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 13, 2019)

bullethead said:


> When you stop at one without researching for any others it is no surprise that you can't think of any others.
> Your Josephus example has been disproven many, many No wait, MANY times in these threads already.
> But, carry on with it.



Hey.  I'm all ears and waiting on you to provide me with "one of many'?  As far as disproving Josephus, news to me.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jan 13, 2019)

bullethead said:


> What would have happened to Christianity had Constantine decided to go with something else?
> More likely than not. It dies off.
> One day All of Rome was worshipping one way, and something completely different the next. No god decided that.
> Many religions have had thousands of years runs. Many constantly evolving during that time, many branching off into other things that are sort of like the original but they took the parts they liked, adopted a few others and left the parts they didn't like.
> ...





> ]What would have happened to Christianity had Constantine decided to go with something else? More likely that not.  It dies off.



Yeah, because it was only growing exponentially since it's beginning, despite the persecution of the Roman Emperors and the Jews, to a large extent.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 13, 2019)

bullethead said:


> 1. Elijah raised the son of the Zarephath widow from the dead (1 Kings 17:17-22).
> 
> 2. Elisha raised the son of the Shunammite woman from the dead (2 Kings 4:32-35).
> 
> ...



Those individuals were raised physically. They were in the same state they were previously.
Jesus had a spiritual as well as a physical resurrection. He was the first born from death. Jesus was the first to do this and thus was the first fruit.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 13, 2019)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Hey.  I'm all ears and waiting on you to provide me with "one of many'?  As far as disproving Josephus, news to me.


I and others have provided  the information regarding Josephus's writings here in the AAA numerous times in numerous threads which you have participated in and in some cases as direct replies to your Josephus claims then. 

You being all ears about what I can provide for "others"  (which I've previously done also) is meaningless as you do absolutely nothing with every bit of information that goes against your thoughts.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 13, 2019)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Yeah, because it was only growing exponentially since it's beginning, despite the persecution of the Roman Emperors and the Jews, to a large extent.


So were a dozen+ other religions within the grasp of the Roman Empire. And dozens of other were established and other growing outside of their grasp which still exist today.

Read up on Constantine's decision on Christianity. Then you won't have to go by my words.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 13, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> Those individuals were raised physically. They were in the same state they were previously.
> Jesus had a spiritual as well as a physical resurrection. He was the first born from death. Jesus was the first to do this and thus was the first fruit.


None of them were ever actually raised anywhere except within the confines of the bible.
Either coming back from being dead was so common in ancient times that NOBODY noticed or cared OR it's all bunk.

Despite all the same powers granted to our modern Apostles and Disciples how come they are not raising any dead now, growing any lost limbs or at least going to a children's hospital and just doing the easy magic of curing them before they dead?????


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jan 13, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> I’m willing to bet that most atheist / agnostic are willing to give God a shot, if God gave them something to go with. They’re not anti-God.



I tend to disagree.  Romans 1 clearly states that all men are able to recognize God (exists) by his creation.  Most of these guys here will tell you there's no evidence, yet if you will notice, many if not all, harbor an overwhelming resentment toward anything God related in general and Christian in specific.  Their words say there's no evidence, but their actions and emotions are over and beyond what one would expect toward something that doesn't exists.  Hence, I feel that they all do believe in God, yet harbor a deep resentment toward Him for some perceived injustice.  
Keep in mind, many, many, many, people have been harmed in the name of the Church, Christianity, and Christ: deep hurts, pains and scars of the soul that will never completely heal.  It's especially sad given that they have been turned against the very thing that is their only hope though no fault of their own.  

Others are no different that nominal, self described Christians that inhabit all churches to one degree or another who don't want to follow Christ because of what it would cost them in terms of their wants and desires/lifestyle.  Both of these acknowledge the presence of God.  Neither truly desire anything of his.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 13, 2019)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Hey.  I'm all ears and waiting on you to provide me with "one of many'?  As far as disproving Josephus, news to me.


Read up. I made it easy for you. You don't have to take my words for it.
http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 13, 2019)

bullethead said:


> I and others have provided  the information regarding Josephus's writings here in the AAA numerous times in numerous threads which you have participated in and in some cases as direct replies to your Josephus claims then.
> 
> You being all ears about what I can provide for "others"  (which I've previously done also) is meaningless as you do absolutely nothing with every bit of information that goes against your thoughts.



Sorry, I honestly am not familiar with any "information" you have previously provided. 

 You said Christ was "one of many".  I assumed you could at least name one.  No biggy.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jan 13, 2019)

bullethead said:


> So were a dozen+ other religions within the grasp of the Roman Empire. And dozens of other were established and other growing outside of their grasp which still exist today.
> 
> Read up on Constantine's decision on Christianity. Then you won't have to go by my words.



So Christianity would have likely died off without Constantine, yet a "dozen+other religions within the grasp of the Roman Empire ......still exist today."  Gotcha.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 13, 2019)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Sorry, I honestly am not familiar with any "information" you have previously provided.
> 
> You said Christ was "one of many".  I assumed you could at least name one.  No biggy.


Post #169 and this:
https://www.thoughtco.com/jewish-view-of-jesus-2076763


----------



## bullethead (Jan 13, 2019)

SemperFiDawg said:


> So Christianity would have likely died off without Constantine, yet a "dozen+other religions within the grasp of the Roman Empire ......still exist today."  Gotcha.


Comprehension SFD, COMPREHENSION!!

RE-Read what I said.
The others OUTSIDE of Roman grasp still exist today.

I am understanding why we must constantly go over things with you.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jan 13, 2019)

bullethead said:


> Either coming back from being dead was so common in ancient times that NOBODY noticed or cared OR it's all bunk.



Orrrrrr it's true.  Kinda left that option out didn't you?  It IS very well documented, and it IS the ONLY thing that can account for the rapid rise of the Church post-crucifixion.  Despite all your posturing over "evidence", when the evidence contradicts your stance, all of a sudden it's not evidence any more to the point of it's veracity isn't even a choice.  Tisk. Tisk. Tisk.   Oh ye hypocrites.


----------



## WaltL1 (Jan 13, 2019)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I tend to disagree.  Romans 1 clearly states that all men are able to recognize God (exists) by his creation.  Most of these guys here will tell you there's no evidence, yet if you will notice, many if not all, harbor an overwhelming resentment toward anything God related in general and Christian in specific.  Their words say there's no evidence, but their actions and emotions are over and beyond what one would expect toward something that doesn't exists.  Hence, I feel that they all do believe in God, yet harbor a deep resentment toward Him for some perceived injustice.
> Keep in mind, many, many, many, people have been harmed in the name of the Church, Christianity, and Christ: deep hurts, pains and scars of the soul that will never completely heal.  It's especially sad given that they have been turned against the very thing that is their only hope though no fault of their own.
> 
> Others are no different that nominal, self described Christians that inhabit all churches to one degree or another who don't want to follow Christ because of what it would cost them in terms of their wants and desires/lifestyle.  Both of these acknowledge the presence of God.  Neither truly desire anything of his.





> Most of these guys here will tell you there's no evidence, yet if you will notice, many if not all, harbor an overwhelming resentment toward anything God related in general and Christian in specific.


Where do some of you guys come up with this nonsense?
You've been here long enough to know we support your right to worship, have family and friends we love that are Christian, allow our children to go to church, support church activities and on and on.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have a couple of Christians tied up in my basement and its time for their hourly torture session.....


----------



## bullethead (Jan 13, 2019)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Orrrrrr it's true.  Kinda left that option out didn't you?  It IS very well documented, and it IS the ONLY thing that can account for the rapid rise of the Church post-crucifixion.  Despite all your posturing over "evidence", when the evidence contradicts your stance, all of a sudden it's not evidence any more to the point of it's veracity isn't even a choice.  Tisk. Tisk. Tisk.   Oh ye hypocrites.


Name one source outside of scripture that says they witnessed it.
Just one SFD


----------



## bullethead (Jan 13, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> Where do some of you guys come up with this nonsense?
> You've been here long enough to know we support your right to worship, have family and friends we love that are Christian, allow our children to go to church, support church activities and on and on.
> Now if you'll excuse me, I have a couple of Christians tied up in my basement and its time for their hourly torture session.....


Their statements like those show how warped they have to twist things in their minds in order to make sense out of the blatantly obvious direct info we give about ourselves in here which absolutely refutes their nonsense before they even say it.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jan 13, 2019)

bullethead said:


> Comprehension SFD, COMPREHENSION!!
> 
> RE-Read what I said.
> The others OUTSIDE of Roman grasp still exist today.
> ...



Clearly.  I didn't know "within" and "outside" were synonymous.  Keep me straight now.  

As for "outside", a casual reading of Foxes Book of Martyrs would easily substantiate that a healthy Church existed outside of the Catholic Church all the way down through the ages.  Either way, your supposition that Christianity would have died without Constantine is mistaken.


----------



## WaltL1 (Jan 13, 2019)

bullethead said:


> Their statements like those show how warped they have to twist things in their minds in order to make sense out of the blatantly obvious direct info we give about ourselves in here which absolutely refutes their nonsense before they even say it.


Its just baffling to me.
It would be the same as us claiming -
"SFD is only on the GON website because he hates AA's. He doesn't hunt, he doesn't fish, he doesn't enjoy the outdoors...………"


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jan 13, 2019)

bullethead said:


> Name one source outside of scripture that says they witnessed it.
> Just one SFD



Nice quantification.  Bullet's mantra:  SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE!  no. not that evidence.  other evidence.  LOL.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jan 13, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> Where do some of you guys come up with this nonsense?
> You've been here long enough to know we support your right to worship, have family and friends we love that are Christian, allow our children to go to church, support church activities and on and on.
> Now if you'll excuse me, I have a couple of Christians tied up in my basement and its time for their hourly torture session.....



Thought you left the Catholic Church.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 13, 2019)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Clearly.  I didn't know "within" and "outside" were synonymous.  Keep me straight now.
> 
> As for "outside", a casual reading of Foxes Book of Martyrs would easily substantiate that a healthy Church existed outside of the Catholic Church all the way down through the ages.  Either way, your supposition that Christianity would have died without Constantine is mistaken.


My Own Quote:


> So were a dozen+ other religions within the grasp of the Roman Empire.<THIS LITTLE DOT TO THE LEFT OF THIS SENTENCE IS A PERIOD IT ENDS THE SENTENCE, EVERYTHING TO THE RIGHT OF THIS SENTENCE IS A BRAND NEW SENTENCE OF IT's OWN.> And dozens of other were established and other growing outside of their grasp which still exist today.



See, Sfd the first sentence talks about religions WITHIN the Romans grasp that were made illegal and died out.
The second sentence speaks of the religions OUTSIDE  of the Romans grasp which still continued.

It really is a comprehension problem on your end SFD. Are you straight yet?


----------



## Spotlite (Jan 13, 2019)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I tend to disagree.  Romans 1 clearly states that all men are able to recognize God (exists) by his creation.  Most of these guys here will tell you there's no evidence, yet if you will notice, many if not all, harbor an overwhelming resentment toward anything God related in general and Christian in specific.  Their words say there's no evidence, but their actions and emotions are over and beyond what one would expect toward something that doesn't exists.  Hence, I feel that they all do believe in God, yet harbor a deep resentment toward Him for some perceived injustice.
> Keep in mind, many, many, many, people have been harmed in the name of the Church, Christianity, and Christ: deep hurts, pains and scars of the soul that will never completely heal.  It's especially sad given that they have been turned against the very thing that is their only hope though no fault of their own.
> 
> Others are no different that nominal, self described Christians that inhabit all churches to one degree or another who don't want to follow Christ because of what it would cost them in terms of their wants and desires/lifestyle.  Both of these acknowledge the presence of God.  Neither truly desire anything of his.



Understood. I realize all men are able.....

But for whatever, and many reasons, some don’t. If whatever reason that’s interfering with them being able to believe was removed, I’m just convinced that most A/A’s would be willing to give God a shot.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 13, 2019)

If Romans 1 is saying that all men know God and can worship God by seeing what he did in Creation, why doesn't the whole world worship God?  The people in Romans 1 purposely suppressed the truth for a lie. God had already shown those people the truth. They "knew" God. They exchange worshiping God for that of idols.

I don't think God blames people in the jungle who aren't worshiping him. At least not the same way he blames this group in Romans 1. He hasn't turned the whole world over to a reprobate mind. The whole world didn't "exchange" worshiping God for that of idols.

Ephesians 2:1
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,

How can a dead person believe and worship God?


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 13, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> Understood. I realize all men are able.....
> 
> But for whatever, and many reasons, some don’t. If whatever reason that’s interfering with them being able to believe was removed, I’m just convinced that most A/A’s would be willing to give God a shot.



Let’s pray it is.  These are some good guys.


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## bullethead (Jan 13, 2019)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Nice quantification.  Bullet's mantra:  SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE!  no. not that evidence.  other evidence.  LOL.


Resurrection and Ascension References in the Early Texts

When examining early texts, the process of searching for the truth becomes ever more complicated for Christians:

‘According to St Marks Gospel, as contained in Codex Sinaiticus, They went out and ran away from the tomb, beside themselves with terror. They said nothing to anybody, for they were afraid. There, according to codex Sinaiticus, the Gospel of mark comes to an end. It does not so end, of course, in the Authorized Version of the English Bible, nor in the received texts of any of the orthodox Christian Churches. Their version all continued with a further 12 verses.’[3]

‘The scribe who brought Mark’s Gospel to an end in Codex Sinaiticus had no doubt that it finished at chapter 16, verse 8. He underlined the text with a fine artistic squiggle, and wrote, The Gospel according to Mark. Immediately following begins the Gospel of Luke.’[14]

In Luke 24:51 we are told how Jesus(as) left his Disciples following the resurrection. ‘He blessed them, was parted from them, and was carried up into heaven.’ This last phrase ‘and was carried up into heaven’ does not appear in Codex Sinaiticus or in Codex Vaticunus. According to the textual critic C.S.C. Williams, if this omission is correct, then ‘There is no reference at all to the Ascension in the original text of the Gospels.’[5]

Interestingly, Bentley points out that:

‘The early century manuscripts Codex Sinaiticus, Codex Syriacus, Codex Vaticunus and Codex Bobiensis do not contain the last twelve verses of the Gospel of Mark. This is a notable omission: it is these verses only which contain the description of Jesus(as)resurrection appearance. Since Mark’s (in accordance with the Synoptic theory, discovery of who wrote first amongst Mathew, Mark and Luke) account seems to be not only the earliest but also that on which Matthew and Luke based their accounts, a question arises: what is the basis for the accounts of Jesus’(as) bodily resurrection according to Matthew, Luke and John?’[6]

The Ending of Mark

Regarding the abrupt ending of Mark, Bentley writes:

‘Once we assume that Mark was written first and used by at least two of the other evangelists, we are forced to ask whether or not they, so to speak, watered down what he had to preach. John Fenton makes no bones about this. Mark’s theology, he asserts, was too rigorous for the church, and the revisions that were made by Matthew, Luke and John were adaptations to meet the weakness of human nature. Everywhere in his Gospel, Mark presupposes that Jesus(as) is alive…The extra twelve verses we have already quoted were probably added by a presbyter named Aristion in the second century.’[7]


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## bullethead (Jan 13, 2019)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Nice quantification.  Bullet's mantra:  SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE!  no. not that evidence.  other evidence.  LOL.


Another been there, done that , but SFD doesn remember it moment. 

We have established many times why 3rd hand sources written at least 30 years later does not qualify.


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## bullethead (Jan 13, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> Those individuals were raised physically. They were in the same state they were previously.
> Jesus had a spiritual as well as a physical resurrection. He was the first born from death. Jesus was the first to do this and thus was the first fruit.


Didn't Elijah ascend to heaven?
Enoch too?

So many dead then not dead then dead again but alive spiritually then on the escalator A Movin on up to a DELUXE Apartment in the sky...


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## bullethead (Jan 13, 2019)

Hey SFD, did Josephus also record the 3 hours of darkness all over the world, earthquakes, tombs bursting open? How did the world's historians miss those events?
Did Josephus mention all the first born being killed? How did ALL the historians miss that? Heck how did three other gospel writers miss it?
Wait a minute, DID ANYONE outside of 4 anonymous writers 30,50,70+ years later write about ANYTHING that happened for 33 years that was the results of the Son of God inhabiting the Earth?
What about Paul? He wrote the earliest.  Does he mention earthquakes?
How did the Star of Bethlehem go unnoticed by the astronomers?


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## WaltL1 (Jan 13, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> Understood. I realize all men are able.....
> 
> But for whatever, and many reasons, some don’t. If whatever reason that’s interfering with them being able to believe was removed, I’m just convinced that most A/A’s would be willing to give God a shot.


Im just guessing here because I don't know many A/As but.....
If the Christian God were to be proven to exist, I would have to think some number of A/As would become Christians.
I also think even if the Christian God were proven to exist, a large number of A/As would acknowledge/accept his existence but still not "give him a shot".
As A/As, we are able to view God and his actions/traits from a much more critical angle. I don't think those opinions we formed would just disappear and all of a sudden start worshipping him. Unless it was out of fear etc.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 13, 2019)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Let’s pray it is.  These are some good guys.


If you are referring to us..... you gotta make up your mind.
If on one hand we despise Christians just because they are Christian etc..... 
Im not sure on the other hand we could be classified as "good guys".


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## Spotlite (Jan 13, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> If you are referring to us..... you gotta make up your mind.
> If on one hand we despise Christians just because they are Christian etc.....
> Im not sure on the other hand we could be classified as "good guys".


I honestly think a lot of Christianity confuses A/A”s and “anti-Christ”.

There’s a huge difference in lacking a belief in something and hating it.


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## Spotlite (Jan 13, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> Im just guessing here because I don't know many A/As but.....
> If the Christian God were to be proven to exist, I would have to think some number of A/As would become Christians.
> I also think even if the Christian God were proven to exist, a large number of A/As would acknowledge/accept his existence but still not "give him a shot".
> As A/As, we are able to view God and his actions/traits from a much more critical angle. I don't think those opinions we formed would just disappear and all of a sudden start worshipping him. Unless it was out of fear etc.


Yea I would think it would take time and not be automatically.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 13, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> I honestly think a lot of Christianity confuses A/A”s and “anti-Christ”.
> 
> There’s a huge difference in lacking a belief in something and hating it.


Totally agree.

But there are wacko Atheists that you could compare to Westboro Baptists.
Fortunately they both represent a very tiny minority.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 13, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> Yea I would think it would take time and not be automatically.


Kind of on a side note...
If the Christian God were proven to exist the terms Agnostic and Atheist would not be needed any more. All those folks would have to become something else.


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## Spotlite (Jan 13, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> Kind of on a side note...
> If the Christian God were proven to exist the terms Agnostic and Atheist would not be needed any more. All those folks would have to become something else.


They’d be westboro Baptist


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 13, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> I honestly think a lot of Christianity confuses A/A”s and “anti-Christ”.
> 
> There’s a huge difference in lacking a belief in something and hating it.



There is also a big difference in worshiping idols based on indoctrination, such as a tiny African village and exchanging the worship of the God of Israel for that of idols.
One group "knew" God and "exchanged" that worship. The other has never been reached. They are blind. One group was turned over to a reprobate mind.


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## 660griz (Jan 14, 2019)

j_seph said:


> By my analogy if it were a spouse, good or bad times there were still "2". Could not divorce a spouse if there was not 2 of us, could not have a spouse if there were not 2 of us, could not be married if there was not 2 of us. It takes more than 1 to have a relationship of any kind. Thus again if their had been a relationship you were ever in with God then you would have to admit that he is real! There could have never been a relationship there to begin with, so you were religious or there was a relationship and you walked away from it and refuse to admit that he is real and that you left him.


Fine.
I was married to a woman for 22 years. Met her and married in high school. Fell madly in love and lived happily for 21 years. Then, I found out she was a figment of my imagination. Just like God.
There ya go.


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## Spotlite (Jan 14, 2019)

660griz said:


> Fine.
> I was married to a woman for 22 years. Met her and married in high school. Fell madly in love and lived happily for 21 years. Then, I found out she was a figment of my imagination. Just like God.
> There ya go.





I just hope all of them aren’t figments of our imagination


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## 660griz (Jan 14, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> I just hope all of them aren’t figments of our imagination


The alimony is real.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 14, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> If you are referring to us..... you gotta make up your mind.
> If on one hand we despise Christians just because they are Christian etc.....
> Im not sure on the other hand we could be classified as "good guys".



No Walt.  Christ loves you just as he loves me, though I don’t deserve it one bit.  I think the least I can do is extend you the same grace I have received. I think you can relate to this.  If a man gave his life falling on a grenade for me, I would try to honor him the best I could.  Christ did that for all of us.  I wish I could say I’ve done my best , but to be honest there’s been and continued to be times I forget or let anger, and other emotions disgrace his act of selflessness.  It doesn’t change the fact he sacrificed his life for me.  He felt that my life was worthy of his sacrifice and nothing would have changed that.
You my friend are worthy.


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## Israel (Jan 14, 2019)

660griz said:


> Fine.
> I was married to a woman for 22 years. Met her and married in high school. Fell madly in love and lived happily for 21 years. Then, I found out she was a figment of my imagination. Just like God.
> There ya go.



That's heavy.


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## bullethead (Jan 14, 2019)

SemperFiDawg said:


> No Walt.  Christ loves you just as he loves me, though I don’t deserve it one bit.  I think the least I can do is extend you the same grace I have received. I think you can relate to this.  If a man gave his life falling on a grenade for me, I would try to honor him the best I could.  Christ did that for all of us.  I wish I could say I’ve done my best , but to be honest there’s been and continued to be times I forget or let anger, and other emotions disgrace his act of selflessness.  It doesn’t change the fact he sacrificed his life for me.  He felt that my life was worthy of his sacrifice and nothing would have changed that.
> You my friend are worthy.


When I believed as you do it definitely made sense.
Problem is that I no longer believe he had anything to do with a god.
I do think a man of his general description was crucified but for no other reason than he caused enough trouble to bring it on himself.(like many others who got crucified) I think he thought he was more than man. But when (if the story is accurate) he asked why has god forsaken him....that leads me to believe that at that moment he realized he was just a man with no special connection to any deity.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 14, 2019)

660griz said:


> Fine.
> I was married to a woman for 22 years. Met her and married in high school. Fell madly in love and lived happily for 21 years. Then, I found out she was a figment of my imagination. Just like God.
> There ya go.



Well what accounts for all that good cooking you ate during that 21 years that added a few inches to your waist and the 3 kids in your basement?


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 14, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> Kind of on a side note...
> If the Christian God were proven to exist the terms Agnostic and Atheist would not be needed any more. All those folks would have to become something else.



Interesting point.  What would you call them that would be a good descriptor?


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## 660griz (Jan 14, 2019)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Well what accounts for all that good cooking you ate during that 21 years that added a few inches to your waist and the 3 kids in your basement?


She couldn't cook. That is why she had to go.


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## bullethead (Jan 14, 2019)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Interesting point.  What would you call them that would be a good descriptor?


Non Fans


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 14, 2019)

660griz said:


> She couldn't cook. That is why she had to go.



So it justifiable.....self defense.  Perfectly understandable.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 14, 2019)

bullethead said:


> Non Fans



And this  is why I hardly even bother with you anymore.


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## bullethead (Jan 14, 2019)

SemperFiDawg said:


> And this  is why I hardly even bother with you anymore.


Well I am all broken up about you not spending quality time with me anymore....
I always thought it was because you didn't like the lessons.

What would you call them?
Incorrigible?
Disrespectful?
Delinquents?


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## WaltL1 (Jan 14, 2019)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Interesting point.  What would you call them that would be a good descriptor?


Actually maybe continue to use the Atheist/Agnostic label but add "mono" -
MonoAtheist = believes  only one god exists because only one has been proven to exist.
MonoAgnostic = believes one god exists because only one has been proven to exist but...… there may be more.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 14, 2019)

bullethead said:


> Well I am all broken up about you not spending quality time with me anymore....
> I always thought it was because you didn't like the lessons.
> 
> What would you call them?
> ...


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## WaltL1 (Jan 14, 2019)

SemperFiDawg said:


> No Walt.  Christ loves you just as he loves me, though I don’t deserve it one bit.  I think the least I can do is extend you the same grace I have received. I think you can relate to this.  If a man gave his life falling on a grenade for me, I would try to honor him the best I could.  Christ did that for all of us.  I wish I could say I’ve done my best , but to be honest there’s been and continued to be times I forget or let anger, and other emotions disgrace his act of selflessness.  It doesn’t change the fact he sacrificed his life for me.  He felt that my life was worthy of his sacrifice and nothing would have changed that.
> You my friend are worthy.


I think you missed my point -
YOU cant think we despise Christians just because they are Christian....
And also believe we are "good guys".
Well at least we wouldn't fit my definition of a "good guy".


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## Spotlite (Jan 14, 2019)

bullethead said:


> Well I am all broken up about you not spending quality time with me anymore....
> I always thought it was because you didn't like the lessons.
> 
> What would you call them?
> ...


SFD.....you gotta admit that’s funny


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## Israel (Jan 15, 2019)

bullethead said:


> When I believed as you do it definitely made sense.
> Problem is that I no longer believe he had anything to do with a god.
> I do think a man of his general description was crucified but for no other reason than he caused enough trouble to bring it on himself.(like many others who got crucified) I think he thought he was more than man. But when (if the story is accurate) he asked why has god forsaken him....that leads me to believe that at that moment he realized he was just a man with no special connection to any deity.



Doesn't that bring up certain other considerations to _accuracy_?


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## bullethead (Jan 15, 2019)

Israel said:


> Doesn't that bring up certain other considerations to _accuracy_?


None that have not been considered already.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 15, 2019)

bullethead said:


> What would you call them?
> Incorrigible?
> Disrespectful?
> Delinquents?



Evil.


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## ambush80 (Jan 15, 2019)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Interesting point.  What would you call them that would be a good descriptor?



Christ-deniers.


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## Israel (Jan 15, 2019)

I'd say they's




"


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 15, 2019)

It's funny the images of others that people have of each other as groups. We see the individuals within a big group, that we personally know, as being different from that group.

Meaning many see Christians as haters of the downtrodden and many see Atheist as the haters of the downtrodden. The reality is quite different once we meet an "individual" from one of the groups we think we know.
Some see Atheist, as a group, as this big, anti-Christian, evil empire. They might even have an agenda. Like the "Gay Agenda."
Others, even fellow Christians see the Republicans, as a group, as evil Christians unwilling to help the downtrodden. Bullies who have taken the world by force under the guise of doing it for God.

Personally and regardless of how I feel about the group, I like to give the individuals, the benefit of the doubt, that they are not like the picture I have painted in my head of the group.

Sometimes this picture has been painted by others and I've heard it so often it's image is burned in my brain. I would like to think I'm finally wise enough to see the image for what it is using my on thought process instead of that of another. It isn't an easy task to undo. To remove those old images take time.
Some folks never can. Some never even try.


Lyrics from a song as an example;

Conservative Christian, right wing Republican
Straight, white, American males
Gay bashin’, black fearin’
Poor fightin’, tree killin’
Regional leaders of sales
Frat housin’, keg tappin’
Shirt tuckin’, back slappin’
Haters of hippies like me
Tree huggin', peace lovin'
Pot smokin', porn watchin'
Lazy hippies like me.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 15, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> It's funny the images of others that people have of each other as groups. We see the individuals within a big group, that we personally know, as being different from that group.
> 
> Meaning many see Christians as haters of the downtrodden and many see Atheist as the haters of the downtrodden. The reality is quite different once we meet an "individual" from one of the groups we think we know.
> Some see Atheist, as a group, as this big, anti-Christian, evil empire. They might even have an agenda. Like the "Gay Agenda."
> ...


Great post Art 
I agree 99%.
And I say 99% not 100% because for me there are exceptions.
If, for example, you belong to Westboro Baptist, I have 0 interest in getting to know you or giving you a chance etc. There would be NO redeeming quality about you that would make me overlook the fact that you belong to that group.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 15, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> Great post Art
> I agree 99%.
> And I say 99% not 100% because for me there are exceptions.
> If, for example, you belong to Westboro Baptist, I have 0 interest in getting to know you or giving you a chance etc. There would be NO redeeming quality about you that would make me overlook the fact that you belong to that group.



I would agree and thanks!


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## ambush80 (Jan 15, 2019)




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## WaltL1 (Jan 15, 2019)

ambush80 said:


>


That's a great story.
Im glad she was able to break through her childhood indoctrination.
Im glad there are those who could engage her with compassion......
Im not one of them who could. Not until after she left those scumbags.


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## gemcgrew (Jan 15, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> That's a great story.
> Im glad she was able to break through her childhood indoctrination.
> Im glad there are those who could engage her with compassion......
> Im not one of them who could. Not until after she left those scumbags.


She still doesn't like you much.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 15, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> That's a great story.
> Im glad she was able to break through her childhood indoctrination.
> Im glad there are those who could engage her with compassion......
> Im not one of them who could. Not until after she left those scumbags.



I wonder what that type of indoctrination did to her own psyche every time she sinned? If one goes around holding a sign up your whole young life showing that God condemns sin? Then when you sin yourself?
It just seems like even with the washing, you'd still feel very guilty all the time.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 15, 2019)

gemcgrew said:


> She still doesn't like you much.


Well that's understandable.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 16, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> I wonder what that type of indoctrination did to her own psyche every time she sinned? If one goes around holding a sign up your whole young life showing that God condemns sin? Then when you sin yourself?
> It just seems like even with the washing, you'd still feel very guilty all the time.


Or maybe not feel guilty at all.
Meaning they have been so indoctrinated that they are the righteous ones and everybody else are the sinners that it doesn't even enter their mind?
Maybe they cant acknowledge their own sins unless and until they can break through their indoctrination.


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## Israel (Jan 16, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> Or maybe not feel guilty at all.
> Meaning they have been so indoctrinated that they are the righteous ones and everybody else are the sinners that it doesn't even enter their mind?
> Maybe they cant acknowledge their own sins unless and until they can break through their indoctrination.



Nothing seems more normal to us than our own normal.


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## 660griz (Jan 16, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> That's a great story.
> Im glad she was able to break through her childhood indoctrination.



I think this is true of most atheist.


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## 660griz (Jan 16, 2019)

Israel said:


> Nothing seems more normal to us than our own normal.


New normal is good too. I remember when it was normal to 'prairie dog' run 100 yards to the outhouse. Then, we got indoor plumbing and that just seemed right from the start. Hot baths on tap. Oh yea...new normal was sweet.


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## Israel (Jan 16, 2019)

660griz said:


> New normal is good too. I remember when it was normal to 'prairie dog' run 100 yards to the outhouse. Then, we got indoor plumbing and that just seemed right from the start. Hot baths on tap. Oh yea...new normal was sweet.


Yeah...I wasn't implying "our" normal is static or has to stay so. Yeah, we change, I don't think any of us have argued against that. It's the perimeters and parameters of change, the  limits we impose, probably first upon ourselves, then outward to one another that become the issue.

I don't think you can (but help me if you do, cause I do like laughter) find this funnier than I continue to find it. I do this with God...think He can't be "more" of a thing bounded by the limits of my imagination and understanding, than He is. Yet He's always crushing every preconceived notion.

You said something a few posts back that stays with me, about being "madly in love" and then discovering a figment of your imagination. Was the love the figment? Or the object _of that_ the figment?

I'm not looking for an answer from you, nor trying to hold you to one...it's more a question of what I myself find myself confronted with. I easily believe I know my own affections, and the "why" of them. In one sense to the extreme, it is how I define my own sense of being..."I am that particular man who approves such and such, and refutes other." _I am_ the man in whom this particular "set" of approvals and disapproval's resides.

What becomes laughably funny is when it is plainly demonstrated to me that that "other" I have been refuting is God, and yet He's more than alright with it...in _His knowing. _A provision has been made of such order that He can bear contradiction far beyond any understanding I may have where such contradiction...must be _summarily opposed. _A provision of such magnitude that what opposes Him in mind, is_ already accounted for._

A fellow once said "consider the long suffering (patience) of God as salvation". I'm persuaded he discovered a need of patience being exerted toward him, far in excess of what he may have once considered as to what patience _is._

The one teaching him was not the figment, the figment was his own understanding of what things meant.


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## 660griz (Jan 17, 2019)

Israel said:


> You said something a few posts back that stays with me, about being "madly in love" and then discovering a figment of your imagination. Was the love the figment? Or the object _of that_ the figment?


The post was in response to j_seph's post and analogy. The figment of my imagination was the object. (i.e. God) That was the point I was going for. 
Swing and a miss I guess.


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## Israel (Jan 23, 2019)

660griz said:


> The post was in response to j_seph's post and analogy. The figment of my imagination was the object. (i.e. God) That was the point I was going for.
> Swing and a miss I guess.




That still remains interesting. I get (I think) that you mean your perception of "her" was a figment, she was not _in fact_ the person you had _in mind_? You saw her one way...and then came to understand that what you saw was not who was there?

Then taking this analogy over to "God"...His being _to you _was shown as false to you as your imagining of her? But...is she real nonetheless, even if not at all the way you thought her to be? (Her name isn't Harvey, right?)


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## atlashunter (May 31, 2019)

Interesting post and questions. It reminds me of my grandmother who died of liver cancer. She had been a Christian since the early 50’s. The last time I spoke with her she seemed to be at peace with it and I said I didn’t know how she could handle it so well. She said god gives us the strength we need. I do think her faith helped her face death. Is it worth it? What a great question to consider. I know the answer for myself is no. It’s always seemed to me that what is true should take greater priority in our minds than the utility we might find in falsehood. But I think there must be a lot of folks that don’t see it that way. I think there are a lot of believers who would really rather not know if their beliefs were untrue because they don’t want to risk losing what they get out of their faith. They would rather have false hope than no hope. I have a hard time relating to that mindset. If this is the only life I get it seems it would be a shame to spend it chasing a delusion that I would get another.


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