# All



## welderguy (Dec 18, 2019)

1 Corinthians 15:22 
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Does "all" mean every individual here in both phrases?
It has to. 
Is it saying we all died physically or spiritually? Is it saying we all shall be made alive physically or spiritually?
It cannot mean physically because of verse 51.

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

So, we shall not all sleep, but in Adam all die...
....but in Christ shall all be made alive.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

I read it simply. It says that those "in Christ" shall be made alive. I suspect it means Christians and others also who Christ has ministered to with good effect yet they knew not it was him, are given eternal life through Christ. So since eternal life is a spiritual benefit, the comparison that "in Adam" all die most  likely means the opposite of eternal life or the lack of this spiritual benefit.

Now the curse of Adam's transgression is not only loss of eternal life ( banishment from the Garden of Eden where God walked with man)  but also physical death itself according to scripture's account. Once the curse of banishment is removed by being "in Christ" we are  still going to die physically except some won't at the end, but like Christ our destiny is resurrection. I suspect the change will be a physical one, since we are already changed spiritually "in Christ" being restored to eternal life.

The word "all" here is simply used to indicate or describe condition or state and not indicative of any individual. In Adam all die because... In Christ all live because... It simply describes the condition of being in Adam and "in Christ". There is no choice to be in Adam, their is choice involved to be "in Christ".

All in Adam die because of loss of eternal life and a curse. In Christ all live because of Grace with the regaining of eternal life and the promise of physical resurrection ( which assumes removal of the curse of death at some point in time. )

There is possibly much more to say... as in "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God." When will they see God? Is it indicative of much more than mere physical sight? Or it physical sight alone? Did Adam see God when they walked together?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 18, 2019)

I recall a verse or passage that says death came to all men through the first Adam  and many men will be saved by the second Adam. I can't remember what verse but I think it used the term second Adam.

It's like "all" was used to condemn, but "many" was used for redemption. I'll see if I can find it.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 18, 2019)

What would be the point of religion if all were condemned and then all were saved? I mean God could have just kept His whole story to Himself.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 18, 2019)

OK, I found it. It's the Romans 5 version;

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned.

Romans 5:15
But the gracious gift is not like the transgression. For if the many died through the transgression of the one man, how much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one man Jesus Christ multiply to the many! 

Now I'm rethinking, verse 15 says "many" died and "many" received. Yet verse 12 says "all."

What does "many" mean? The Greek word is "polloi" or "pollous."


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 18, 2019)

In relation to the banquet; 
"For many are invited, but few are chosen."


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## welderguy (Dec 18, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> OK, I found it. It's the Romans 5 version;
> 
> Romans 5:12
> Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned.
> ...



But did you read verse 18?


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## welderguy (Dec 18, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> In relation to the banquet;
> "For many are invited, but few are chosen."



For the Kingdom specifically, not eternal life. It's a kingdom parable.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 18, 2019)

welderguy said:


> But did you read verse 18?


Maybe so if justification means acquittal.


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## welderguy (Dec 18, 2019)

gordon 2 said:


> I read it simply. It says that those "in Christ" shall be made alive. I suspect it means Christians and others also who Christ has ministered to with good effect yet they knew not it was him, are given eternal life through Christ. So since eternal life is a spiritual benefit, the comparison that "in Adam" all die most  likely means the opposite of eternal life or the lack of this spiritual benefit.
> 
> Now the curse of Adam's transgression is not only loss of eternal life ( banishment from the Garden of Eden where God walked with man)  but also physical death itself according to scripture's account. Once the curse of banishment is removed by being "in Christ" we are  still going to die physically except some won't at the end, but like Christ our destiny is resurrection. I suspect the change will be a physical one, since we are already changed spiritually "in Christ" being restored to eternal life.
> 
> ...



I can't really swallow your concept of having a choice to be in Christ. That would require a spiritually dead man to exercise life, which he doesn't have, to gain life. Contradictory.


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## welderguy (Dec 18, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> OK, I found it. It's the Romans 5 version;
> 
> Romans 5:12
> Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned.
> ...



All is many in my thinking.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

welderguy said:


> I can't really swallow your concept of having a choice to be in Christ. That would require a spiritually dead man to exercise life, which he doesn't have, to gain life. Contradictory.



>>>>Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." The unfortunate man had a choice to make.

But besides this, how many who believe in God have refused the alter call or having accepted it, later fall back... to believing in the Father only?

Very few human beings( if any)  are spiritually dead...

Why would Jesus indicate to individuals  " Follow me." if they had not a choice to follow some other thing,  something else or someone else? "_Follow Me_, and I will make you become fishers of men."

Jesus himself made choices when he was tempted in the desert.

Paul made choices because the Holy Spirit made choices that Paul should not go to Asia. In what ways are we the image of God? Are choices of that image?


And why this:


So Jesus asked the Twelve, “Do you want to leave too?”…  Why would Jesus ask this if the twelve had not a choice.

We know that, " From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him."

I submit that the disciples and believers in the God of Abraham had  and have a choice to be in Christ and  some refused to continue to be in Christ. And so it is this way today... I know disciples that were "all in Christ" who chose latter to no longer be so. They are not spiritually dead people... and never were. They have issues and for these issues make choices to be in and out...


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## gordon 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

Do we have a choice to trust Christ and or in what we find the bible says? The Jews trust in what the bible says-- what separates them from those in Christ?

Did Job have a choice in what to believe and choices in who to believe? What is faith? Is their choice in faith to abide with it? Is there choice to abide in friendship? Is there choice to abide with love? Is there choice to receive and to give? I there choice in giving and taking. Is there choice in who we will see as least? Is there choice in what we will claim to be of Christ our Lord? How many are called but chose to forgo a response? Jonahs..  chose even today.


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## welderguy (Dec 18, 2019)

gordon 2 said:


> Do we have a choice to trust Christ and or in what we find the bible says? The Jews trust in what the bible says-- what separates them from those in Christ?
> 
> Did Job have a choice in what to believe and choices in who to believe? What is faith? Is their choice in faith to abide with it? Is there choice to abide in friendship? Is there choice to abide with love? Is there choice to receive and to give? I there choice in giving and taking.



We do have choices. Not saying that at all. But to be in Christ is to have Christ in you. They go hand in hand. Inseparable. You simply cannot decide to have Christ removed from you. He promised this. And I'm so glad He did!
Nothing can separate us from the love of God which is "in Christ".(Rom.8:39)


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## gordon 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

There was a tread here during the days of Bill Clinton and the Oklahoma Bomber that was about  the all here ( Biblical all)  not meaning all all the time...


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## StriperAddict (Dec 18, 2019)

We could make "by grace thru faith" ALL too complicated. I know I did for years, no rest for the Pharisee or justice chaser.
Yet ...   Lil kids get Jesus easily because the yoke is easy. It can be no other way. We'd all be boasters in something (someone) we get by merit, not faith. But faith is the catalyst!

I'm just talking relationship, vertical, a free gift. What comes after reflects this, no burden attached as we free share with the world.  ☺


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## welderguy (Dec 18, 2019)

StriperAddict said:


> We could make "by grace thru faith" ALL too complicated. I know I did for years, no rest for the Pharisee or justice chaser.
> Yet ...   Lil kids get Jesus easily because the yoke is easy. It can be no other way. We'd all be boasters in something (someone) we get by merit, not faith. But faith is the catalyst!
> 
> I'm just talking relationship, vertical, a free gift. What comes after reflects this, no burden attached as we free share with the world.  ☺



Sooo....in 1 Cor.15:22, which "all's"  really mean ALL?


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 19, 2019)

The key here is "all" "in Christ". Not all are "in" Christ. This is short for baptized in Jesus name

22 For as in Adam all die, even so *in* Christ shall all be made alive. e


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 19, 2019)

* Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.*


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## welderguy (Dec 19, 2019)

1gr8bldr said:


> The key here is "all" "in Christ". Not all are "in" Christ. This is short for baptized in Jesus name
> 
> 22 For as in Adam all die, even so *in* Christ shall all be made alive. e



Are you sure you're not rearranging the words to make it fit what you want it to say?


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## welderguy (Dec 19, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> * Romans 11:32
> For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.*



1 John 2:2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 19, 2019)

welderguy said:


> Are you sure you're not rearranging the words to make it fit what you want it to say?


No, before I posted, I looked at the greek original. EDIT, after looking again, I concede that one might read it differently, being that it has an ambiguous option


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 19, 2019)

2 Cor 5:17, For those In Christ are a new creation. Something like that... I should paste it. EDIT, Excuse me, Therefore, if anyone is "In" Christ, he is a new creation.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 19, 2019)

Let us be biblical then in this case and I therefore submit that all does not mean all individuals to be made alive by resurrection of the body in the case here.  Because Paul is addressing a congragation of Christians and the "all be made alive" is qualified by verse following or verse 23.


22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

They that are in Christ is independent of "in Christ" or "in" Christ...baptized, saved, born again, assured... 1st Church of X  vs 4h Church of Z, Bible Alone Believer vs Orthodox etc...those with an agenda vs the meek and the just etc.

So the condition of being made alive as Christ was made alive following his death is to be " Christ's at his coming."

Someone very famous is said to have said this: 
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’


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## welderguy (Dec 19, 2019)

gordon 2 said:


> Let us be biblical then in this case and I therefore submit that all does not mean all individuals to be made alive by resurrection of the body in the case here.  Because Paul is addressing a congragation of Christians and the "all be made alive" is qualified by verse following or verse 23.
> 
> 
> 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
> ...



I'm trying to understand your first point. Is it that you believe some will not even be physically resurrected? You do know there's a resurrection of the just and the unjust, right? (Acts 24:15)

Those that are "Christ's at His coming", are His bride.(the elect, the chosen before the foundation of the world for the kingdom)

Your last reference is speaking of those outside the kingdom. But it's ongoing now. Not just in the future as most think of it.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 19, 2019)

welderguy said:


> I'm trying to understand your first point. Is it that you believe some will not even be physically resurrected? You do know there's a resurrection of the just and the unjust, right? (Acts 24:15)
> 
> Those that are "Christ's at His coming", are His bride.(the elect, the chosen before the foundation of the world for the kingdom)
> 
> Your last reference is speaking of those outside the kingdom. But it's ongoing now. Not just in the future as most think of it.


 

  I'm not  saying anything, I'm letting Paul speak but yes, I understand that all will be resurrected, but does that mean all will be changed? Paul seems to indicate that only "they that are in Christ" will be changed.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 19, 2019)

What do you think the answer to your question is weld?


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## welderguy (Dec 19, 2019)

gordon 2 said:


> What do you think the answer to your question is weld?



I believe the all means all, in the context of eternal habitation.
I do not believe all are included in the bride. Many verses that speak of the elected bride, and the consequential un-elected , are mistakenly applied as "who's going to heaven and who's not."
It's so hard to have a conversation about this subject because so many are deeply rooted in their belief in a "heaven or he11" destiny. It never gets very far.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 19, 2019)

Well has heaven or **** been mentioned yet? ( Except your statement of observation of it in other conversation...?)

Ok so explain to me what is all in the context of eternal habitation and not all included in the bride... with meaning other than who's going to heaven or not. I really want to know what you mean. I'm willing to go far... serious.

PS Why is your typed **** ok for text and mine is censured? ****"


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## welderguy (Dec 19, 2019)

gordon 2 said:


> Well has heaven or **** been mentioned yet? ( Except your statement of observation of it in other conversation...?)
> 
> Ok so explain to me what is all in the context of eternal habitation and not all included in the bride... with meaning other than who's going to heaven or not. I really want to know what you mean. I'm willing to go far... serious.
> 
> PS Why is your typed **** ok for text and mine is censured? ****"



I'm saying that I believe Jesus died for the sin of the whole world. ALL individuals. If He didn't, then please, someone show me where it says He didn't. 
There are many many texts that seemingly exclude some individuals, but they are speaking of an exclusion from the kingdom, not heaven itself.
....does this help, Gordo?

ps. spell it h-e-1-1


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## gordon 2 (Dec 19, 2019)

Yes I agree Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, all individuals but I don't understand that all will be saved because of this, even though that he died for the sins of the whole world. Some will never know the kingdom for not seeing it, nor will some know heaven for not being to it...??? So do you need scripture for my views?


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## welderguy (Dec 19, 2019)

gordon 2 said:


> Yes I agree Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, all individuals but I don't understand that all will be saved because of this, even though that he died for the sins of the whole world. Some will never know the kingdom for not seeing it, nor will some know heaven for not being to it...??? So do you need scripture for my views?



You said:. "nor will some know heaven for not being to it...???"

What does this mean?


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## gordon 2 (Dec 19, 2019)

The not pure of heart will not see God, and therefore I assume will not make it to heaven, unless blindness is a common item there.

The poor of spirit, the kingdom of heaven is theirs, but I have to assume that the folk with a spirit filled like a fat larder won't own a bit of a claim to the kingdom.

Selling all you got to follow Jesus is a rumination of many... and for some it is never, ever digested?


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## welderguy (Dec 19, 2019)

gordon 2 said:


> The not pure of heart will not see God, and therefore I assume will not make it to heaven, unless blindness is a common item there.
> 
> The poor of spirit, the kingdom of heaven is theirs, but I have to assume that the folk with a spirit filled like a fat larder won't own a bit of a claim to the kingdom.
> 
> Selling all you got to follow Jesus is a rumination of many... and for some it is never, ever digested?



I agree with everything you just said, but I must add this to each of your statements:

....in this present life.

Because the kingdom is now. And the kingdom is within us. But it is something we must press into. The violent take it by force. It requires going through a very straight (narrow) gate. It is a "rest" that we labor to enter into.
These things are for now, in this life.
That's why John and then Jesus preached that the kingdom is at hand.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 20, 2019)

welderguy said:


> I'm saying that I believe Jesus died for the sin of the whole world. ALL individuals. If He didn't, then please, someone show me where it says He didn't.
> There are many many texts that seemingly exclude some individuals, but they are speaking of an exclusion from the kingdom, not heaven itself.
> ....does this help, Gordo?
> 
> ps. spell it h-e-1-1


The curse of "time" from immortal to mortal, even the earth is under the curse as it awaits in eager expectations for the sons of God to be revealed, Interestingly we realize that the earth is is ageing as well, under the curse also. It will one day, also, be back to immortal. The text almost personalizes the earth. I don't think it intended to, but rather an analogy


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## gordon 2 (Dec 20, 2019)

Yes the Kingdom is now... I agree and I agree that heaven is now in that spiritually a case can be made that we are not separated from it in our faith walks as Christians. ( The prayers of the saints are forwarded-petitioned to God in the heaven described in revelation. "The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God's people, went up before God from the angel's hand."

The kingdom is by definitions heavenly, or spiritually heavenly.  The saints who abide there, having all a common share in a same spirit which animates them, share in the intercessions of our Lord in their prayers regards individuals, the saints, the Chruch and indeed all.


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## welderguy (Dec 20, 2019)

1gr8bldr said:


> The curse of "time" from immortal to mortal, even the earth is under the curse as it awaits in eager expectations for the sons of God to be revealed, Interestingly we realize that the earth is is ageing as well, under the curse also. It will one day, also, be back to immortal. The text almost personalizes the earth. I don't think it intended to, but rather an analogy



"....the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal."(2 Cor.4:18)


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## gordon 2 (Dec 20, 2019)

About entering heaven's earthly and heavenly kingdom which is said within us. Yes the kingdom is our rest as Christians, or that is how I describe it. It is from where the saints can claim genuine patriotism without invoking any nationalism because it is were the issues of living are taken up with a heavenly outlook which is independent of philosophical differences in order to achieve wisdom regards human life.

Now how to get there? I firmly understand that all human beings are responsible for their spiritual lives, just as they are responsible to other items of human living, like finance, shelter, food, work, leisure, etc... Also I understand that one cannot make hay in a season that there is none and therefore a good season must be combined with God's call to a person.

Before one can ask Jesus for something, I suggest one has to go where he "is to". It is there that one must spiritually sell all so as to be there present.  Then and there it is possible therefore to receive without asking, God knowing what we need before we do, and be changed as when one  Zacchaeus climbs a tree to see Jesus go by and the Kingdom was given him though  initially most likely Zacchaeus knew it not...

It is from the Kingdom that the acts of Christians issue ---words, declarations and deeds, and from the simple fellowship---also there that a smile (and I suppose a frown occasionally) ministers. It supposes that Christians not only walk as individuals but also as a communion of saints or as a people of God-- and not as solitary and dissenting lone rangers against the wilds of the world.


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## welderguy (Dec 20, 2019)

gordon 2 said:


> Yes the Kingdom is now... I agree and I agree that heaven is now in that spiritually a case can be made that we are not separated from it in our faith walks as Christians. ( The prayers of the saints are forwarded-petitioned to God in the heaven described in revelation. "The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God's people, went up before God from the angel's hand."
> 
> The kingdom is by definitions heavenly, or spiritually heavenly.  The saints who abide there, having all a common share in a same spirit which animates them, share in the intercessions of our Lord in their prayers regards individuals, the saints, the Chruch and indeed all.



Jesus was exclusive about who could see the kingdom and who could not. Those within, and those without. Why do you suppose that is? Do you think it's because He's preparing a certain group of folks for a certain special purpose? ...His bride perhaps? I think so. I'm reminded of Eph.5:32 here. ("a mystery")

Mark 4
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 20, 2019)

welderguy said:


> Jesus was exclusive about who could see the kingdom and who could not. Those within, and those without. Why do you suppose that is? Do you think it's because He's preparing a certain group of folks for a certain special purpose? ...His bride perhaps? I think so. I'm reminded of Eph.5:32 here. ("a mystery")
> 
> Mark 4
> 11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
> 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.




I think that when Jesus said this that some people were so contaminated with the effects of the original sin that they could not know the call of God or that Jesus was their savior. But some still had just hearts as to God's values and could know from first hand witness that there was no need of parable between what Jesus said and what they could understand.  There was no need of a story to bring out Godly values and ideals... the communication was direct for them.

Now, this is not an issue with Christians I suspect, because even not knowing they are to the Kingdom many do abide within... I also suspect that seeing the Kingdom for what it is a saint or saints can better judge what is of God and what is not... It is perhaps akin to academic discipline what first sources are to findings and facts and discovery. The first sources are direct fellowship and not indirect as in essentially needing the span of library materials to know love when you see it and when you don't.


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## welderguy (Dec 20, 2019)

gordon 2 said:


> I think that when Jesus said this that some people were so contaminated with the effects of the original sin that they could not know the call of God or that Jesus was their savior. But some still had just hearts as to God's values and could know from first hand witness that there was no need of parable between what Jesus said and what they could understand.  There was no need of a story to bring out Godly values and ideals... the communication was direct for them.
> 
> Now, this is not an issue with Christians I suspect, because even not knowing they are to the Kingdom many do abide within... I also suspect that seeing the Kingdom for what it is a saint or saints can better judge what is of God and what is not... It is perhaps akin to academic discipline what first sources are to findings and facts and discovery. The first sources are direct fellowship and not indirect as in essentially needing the span of library materials to know love when you see it and when you don't.



I think it goes deeper than that.  Remember Jesus told Nicodemus he must be born again to see the kingdom and also to enter it. In other words, a person is blind and lame  to it until the Holy Spirit changes them and enables them.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 20, 2019)

welderguy said:


> I think it goes deeper than that.  Remember Jesus told Nicodemus he must be born again to see the kingdom and also to enter it. In other words, a person is blind and lame  to it until the Holy Spirit changes them and enables them.




I agree.


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## welderguy (Dec 21, 2019)

gordon 2 said:


> I agree.



Do you agree with me that many, if not most, scriptures that people use as an eternal destiny text are actually speaking of the kingdom instead?


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## gordon 2 (Dec 21, 2019)

welderguy said:


> Do you agree with me that many, if not most, scriptures that people use as an eternal destiny text are actually speaking of the kingdom instead?




Well I use to think so... many yrs ago... and sort of decided it was not a front line to die on. But can you share a few examples of what you mean? I have not looked at this for a long time... ( I suspect you are mostly right.) Some people have only a literal reading of scripture...  and rigid ways  of thinking about essential things, not to mention the influences of doctrines. I suspect they are minority globally. The problem I see with this and the Kingdom is that if I understand what Jesus did, believers have hearts that are not hard as rock about things essential and  those believers are in the Kingdom.

 But also what is your purpose to point this out... ?


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## welderguy (Dec 22, 2019)

gordon 2 said:


> Well I use to think so... many yrs ago... and sort of decided it was not a front line to die on. But can you share a few examples of what you mean? I have not looked at this for a long time... ( I suspect you are mostly right.) Some people have only a literal reading of scripture...  and rigid ways  of thinking about essential things, not to mention the influences of doctrines. I suspect they are minority globally. The problem I see with this and the Kingdom is that if I understand what Jesus did, believers have hearts that are not hard as rock about things essential and  those believers are in the Kingdom.
> 
> But also what is your purpose to point this out... ?



Matt.22:1-14 is one that comes to mind.
It uses terminology such as "cast into outer darkness" and "weeping and gnashing of teeth". And also speaks of many being called, but few chosen. It's easy to mistake this language for end of time prophecy, but it's speaking of the kingdom that is now. Jesus plainly said it was a parable of the kingdom.


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## welderguy (Dec 22, 2019)

gordon 2 said:


> Well I use to think so... many yrs ago... and sort of decided it was not a front line to die on. But can you share a few examples of what you mean? I have not looked at this for a long time... ( I suspect you are mostly right.) Some people have only a literal reading of scripture...  and rigid ways  of thinking about essential things, not to mention the influences of doctrines. I suspect they are minority globally. The problem I see with this and the Kingdom is that if I understand what Jesus did, believers have hearts that are not hard as rock about things essential and  those believers are in the Kingdom.
> 
> But also what is your purpose to point this out... ?



Matt. 25 is another biggie.
I have no purpose in pointing these things out, other than I believe it needs to be seriously considered. Jesus spent so much time speaking of His kingdom for a reason. We should not take these teachings lightly or think they don't apply to us here and now. They do, in a big way.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 22, 2019)

welderguy said:


> Matt. 25 is another biggie.
> I have no purpose in pointing these things out, other than I believe it needs to be seriously considered. Jesus spent so much time speaking of His kingdom for a reason. We should not take these teachings lightly or think they don't apply to us here and now. They do, in a big way.


Other than Paul, seems like the apostles before him preached a lot about the Kingdom.  I mean Paul did as well but they really did.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 22, 2019)

It is often said that Matthew stresses the Kingdom because he was ministering to Jews or his background was Jewish compared to Luke for example... Why was it so important to Jews? I suspect that a Kingdom where God was going to be Lord was very much a Jewish idea...about the Messiah.  It was a reversal of God's issues with Israel wanting a king in the first place. It points to people being spiritually patriotic independent of national origin. Also people with a changed heart must have a rest or a home for their new individual and collective hearts while yet living in the "old world" of sin and sorrow. For Christians I suggest that the Kingdom is our Canaan land and the rules of the road there are very interesting...


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## welderguy (Dec 23, 2019)

gordon 2 said:


> It is often said that Matthew stresses the Kingdom because he was ministering to Jews or his background was Jewish compared to Luke for example... Why was it so important to Jews? I suspect that a Kingdom where God was going to be Lord was very much a Jewish idea...about the Messiah.  It was a reversal of God's issues with Israel wanting a king in the first place. It points to people being spiritually patriotic independent of national origin. Also people with a changed heart must have a rest or a home for their new individual and collective hearts while yet living in the "old world" of sin and sorrow. For Christians I suggest that the Kingdom is our Canaan land and the rules of the road there are very interesting...



You speak as if these concepts were only for that day. Or that it's a man-made thing. Actually the kingdom was an existing thing even in the old testament. And it was never a physical thing, as in a certain nation. These false assumptions by the Jews were set straight by Jesus numerous times.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 23, 2019)

welderguy said:


> You speak as if these concepts were only for that day. Or that it's a man-made thing. Actually the kingdom was an existing thing even in the old testament. And it was never a physical thing, as in a certain nation. These false assumptions by the Jews were set straight by Jesus numerous times.


Matthew is heavy on the Enoch perspective. Before the dead sea scrolls were found, they actually thought Enoch was written after Matthew because it was said to have over 100 word for word phrases. But once we found the dead sea scrolls we realized it was the other way around. Enoch 1 -64, approximate, is said to be legit. After that, it is highly suspected to be a latter insertion into antiquity as if to falsely validate itself. My point, and I  should have checked before assuming such, expect that Enoch speaks often about a Kingdom. I can't remember the contents of Enoch 1. But you may be inclined to check it out?


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## welderguy (Dec 23, 2019)

1gr8bldr said:


> Matthew is heavy on the Enoch perspective. Before the dead sea scrolls were found, they actually thought Enoch was written after Matthew because it was said to have over 100 word for word phrases. But once we found the dead sea scrolls we realized it was the other way around. Enoch 1 -64, approximate, is said to be legit. After that, it is highly suspected to be a latter insertion into antiquity as if to falsely validate itself. My point, and I  should have checked before assuming such, expect that Enoch speaks often about a Kingdom. I can't remember the contents of Enoch 1. But you may be inclined to check it out?



I have alot of confidence in the book of Matthew. The book of Enoch, not so much.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 23, 2019)

welderguy said:


> I have alot of confidence in the book of Matthew. The book of Enoch, not so much.


 All references to Enoch likely came from their knowledge of the book of Enoch, but... that's debatable, I realize. However, we have a 100 references in the NT that are found no where other than the book of Enoch, even when not referencing  Enoch's name... or the book of Enoch. One could even go as far to say.... that the entire remainder of the bible..... OT and NT, sprang from the book of Enoch. Example, many prophetic verses found in Revelation are actually found in Daniel...... But, those same verses are also in Enoch. No other book is so close, from beginning to end, of the bible, as a summary... Is it a summary... or did each expound from Enoch as their source. I don't claim to know these things, only that it is very interesting. Example, "The Son of Man" term that is used.... it came from Enoch


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 23, 2019)

I have very little confidence in the book of Matthew. Although, what he plagiarizes may still be truth, for the most part, from the source from which he copied. I should have said "sources". Example, he concocts some line of reasoning that 14 generations, 14 generations and another, must mean it has to be from God, numbers of 7. In his mind, this reverse engineering fabrication proves Jesus is the Christ. But God did not ask for his help. It was not 14,14, 14 equaling 42. It was more like 45, 15,15,15... or however it gets sliced. In his defense. It may not have been Matthew's fabrication, but rather something he copied, and likely so, since he had no knowledge of real life in this time period. And I should clarify that this book called Matthew was not written by the disciple Matthew. If that Matthew had written it, it would be full of 1st hand knowledge. It would not need to follow the same topic order that MK and LK has. It would stand alone as John did. It would be without editorial fatigue. And would know the lingo of the day, able to discern that "on a donkey, on the foal of a donkey" means one donkey. Rather than have him ride in straddling 2 donkeys.


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## welderguy (Dec 23, 2019)

1gr8bldr said:


> I have very little confidence in the book of Matthew. Although, what he plagiarizes may still be truth, for the most part, from the source from which he copied. I should have said "sources". Example, he concocts some line of reasoning that 14 generations, 14 generations and another, must mean it has to be from God, numbers of 7. In his mind, this reverse engineering fabrication proves Jesus is the Christ. But God did not ask for his help. It was not 14,14, 14 equaling 42. It was more like 45, 15,15,15... or however it gets sliced. In his defense. It may not have been Matthew's fabrication, but rather something he copied, and likely so, since he had no knowledge of real life in this time period. And I should clarify that this book called Matthew was not written by the disciple Matthew. If that Matthew had written it, it would be full of 1st hand knowledge. It would not need to follow the same topic order that MK and LK has. It would stand alone as John did. It would be without editorial fatigue. And would know the lingo of the day, able to discern that "on a donkey, on the foal of a donkey" means one donkey. Rather than have him ride in straddling 2 donkeys.



But what about the kingdom? What can you tell me about the kingdom that Jesus spoke of so often?


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 24, 2019)

Honestly, I undertook this study 15 to 20 years ago. As with all my topic studies, I read the bible through with one particular thing I was looking for, and that was "kingdom" context. If I recall, I ended up with the idea that  I just don't know......., because it seemingly was talking about now, and then. It was hard to break it down, some info seemingly conflicting, yet possibly attributed to my misunderstanding. It became frustrating. As if I wanted a cut and dry answer, yet it was not there. I believe... there is a kingdom to come, sometimes called future age or coming age, but I also believe there is a present Kingdom. Figuratively revealed in quotes that Jesus said like, "you are not far from the Kingdom". Not meaning that your not far from death to enter the future, but rather that your almost saying the correct thing that would reveal that you understand what it means. Meaning your close to understanding..... but not saying he was there either. I also think the Kingdom is somewhat hidden, as if you need to be given, from God only, the keys to unlock it's understanding. [No one can come to me unless the Father calls him] [No longer will a man teach his neighbor saying know the Lord] Those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, I don't think that was confined to the day of Jesus's preaching. Much to unwrap here with many layers. After all my study, I just don't know.... in a way I can explain it. Yet I feel as though I am in a present day Kingdom. But, without the world rule, just an inner rule. Is this because I.. we... have tried to make our life's fit what we read? Or would we have said this if we had never read about the Kingdom? I am about to have a surgery that will have me home for several weeks with nothing I can do, so I intend to study. specifically thinking of Enoch 1. There is much there in regards to the Kingdom


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## welderguy (Dec 24, 2019)

1gr8bldr said:


> Honestly, I undertook this study 15 to 20 years ago. As with all my topic studies, I read the bible through with one particular thing I was looking for, and that was "kingdom" context. If I recall, I ended up with the idea that  I just don't know......., because it seemingly was talking about now, and then. It was hard to break it down, some info seemingly conflicting, yet possibly attributed to my misunderstanding. It became frustrating. As if I wanted a cut and dry answer, yet it was not there. I believe... there is a kingdom to come, sometimes called future age or coming age, but I also believe there is a present Kingdom. Figuratively revealed in quotes that Jesus said like, "you are not far from the Kingdom". Not meaning that your not far from death to enter the future, but rather that your almost saying the correct thing that would reveal that you understand what it means. Meaning your close to understanding..... but not saying he was there either. I also think the Kingdom is somewhat hidden, as if you need to be given, from God only, the keys to unlock it's understanding. [No one can come to me unless the Father calls him] [No longer will a man teach his neighbor saying know the Lord] Those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, I don't think that was confined to the day of Jesus's preaching. Much to unwrap here with many layers. After all my study, I just don't know.... in a way I can explain it. Yet I feel as though I am in a present day Kingdom. But, without the world rule, just an inner rule. Is this because I.. we... have tried to make our life's fit what we read? Or would we have said this if we had never read about the Kingdom? I am about to have a surgery that will have me home for several weeks with nothing I can do, so I intend to study. specifically thinking of Enoch 1. There is much there in regards to the Kingdom



Good thoughts. I agree with you that the knowledge of the kingdom is not head knowledge. It's something that's given to your spirit by the Spirit. But here's something that I strongly believe. It does not come without effort on our part as well. He gives us those "keys" but we are told to be diligent in the using of them. But at the same time, the labor that is put forth results in a rest. It's very paradoxical. If we seek Him with all our hearts, He said, then we will find. He told us that it starts as a small grain of mustard seed, but grows into a tree large enough for the birds to lodge in. It's definitely a great mystery, but it's been a very fascinating one for me. I wish you well with your surgery and your studies.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 24, 2019)

I


welderguy said:


> Good thoughts. I agree with you that the knowledge of the kingdom is not head knowledge. It's something that's given to your spirit by the Spirit. But here's something that I strongly believe. It does not come without effort on our part as well. He gives us those "keys" but we are told to be diligent in the using of them. But at the same time, the labor that is put forth results in a rest. It's very paradoxical. If we seek Him with all our hearts, He said, then we will find. He told us that it starts as a small grain of mustard seed, but grows into a tree large enough for the birds to lodge in. It's definitely a great mystery, but it's been a very fascinating one for me. I wish you well with your surgery and your studies.


I will ask you a strange question... Let's say you know fully well the exact kingdom that the bible speaks of, however you realize from your experience in the past... and from other's comments, that they don't fully grasp the kingdom concept. Let's assume this as so for a hypothetical point. Do you then... feel like you have the green light to pass out these "hypothetical keys"? ....... Deep subject. Another conversation point differing from the Kingdom topic. Does belief in jesus ..... and the Kingdom, mean the same thing?  My thoughts....I think not. He will say to many, I do not know you. In reference to those... who clearly thought they did. [If we assume this verse actually from Jesus]. I often have a strange conviction that it's not up to me to call whom I want to call. It's his call. "No one can come to me unless the Father draws him" makes me think that I don't have the right to try to pick and choose who is called. And to go further, if I have knowledge, given to me.... who am I to pass it out. If he gave it to me, then I should have confidence that he can and does give it to others.... as he chooses. And to further this, let's just say that I have a code word or phrase, or secret handshake of those in the Kingdom. Would I then tell the world what it was, only to make it hard to distinguish between the world and the kingdom. ? Strange thoughts, I know. Truth is, that I see things in scripture that i no longer feel as though I am allowed to expound on. As if I have eyes to see, and ears to hear, but it's the key's to the unlocking of the truth in the form of biblical analogy. I was not told it by any man, nor did I read it, etc. LOL, I know I am now sounding like an knostic. But, I think the bible validates this.... but it also unvalidates it, by "go yea therefore" as for example, Paul did

Whether we agree or disagree, I appreciate being able to run thoughts, lines of reasoning, etc, by someone whom I can tell has a knowledge of the scriptures, whom does not resort to googling every topic, but rather works from within his recollection. Thanks


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## gordon 2 (Dec 24, 2019)

welderguy said:


> Matt.22:1-14 is one that comes to mind.
> It uses terminology such as "cast into outer darkness" and "weeping and gnashing of teeth". And also speaks of many being called, but few chosen. It's easy to mistake this language for end of time prophecy, but it's speaking of the kingdom that is now. Jesus plainly said it was a parable of the kingdom.



So I agree that it is not a endtime prophecy and it is about the kingdom, but what happened to believers when Jesus returned to the Father. He sent his Comforter. He sent it to whom?  He sent it for all that believe. Now believers are with the Comforter and by established definition with the Father and Jesus. Why would some not be chosen and not to the Kingdom? If they are to Christ are they not of the Kingdom? If they are convinced of the hope intrinsic to Christianity are they not in the Kingdom-- even if the Kingdom seems nebulous to them?

You and I have said that our Kingdom is the Christian's rest or our homeland. I have said the rest comes from the idea that Canaan Land was a rest for the Hebrews. Now our spiritual nature was changed with the full ministry of our Lord, and so we need no Canaan Land. We need a home suitable for which we have been changed to. It is a spiritual kingdom. It is a kingdom of the heart... which is far greater than any earthly kingdom. Why a kingdom of the heart? Because of a promise made beyond and far ahead of the promises made to the Hebrews.

Someone said this:
" I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. "

Now it is good that someone with a new heart should know their rest and that it is a rest for others as him or her. But not knowing... not being sent to the eye popping view of the expanse of our Kingdom... or the intellectual pleasure from it, is it a deal breaker for someone with the heart that Christ promised Jews and gentiles yet they place a kingdom to come and they thinking or sensing that it is not now? When Adam and Eve were to Paradise did they think of Paradise  and of being to it because there was some other place?

Yet it is true I think that the gentle and truer voices in Christianity come from people who have seen and live in our rest. But it does not discount anyone else of their salvation in our beautiful God.

Now tell me... what is the good of our rest? What is your experience? The Kingdom is in "you"  and you seem to know  on it say more than some. What say you bros.?


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## welderguy (Dec 24, 2019)

1gr8bldr said:


> I
> I will ask you a strange question... Let's say you know fully well the exact kingdom that the bible speaks of, however you realize from your experience in the past... and from other's comments, that they don't fully grasp the kingdom concept. Let's assume this as so for a hypothetical point. Do you then... feel like you have the green light to pass out these "hypothetical keys"? ....... Deep subject. Another conversation point differing from the Kingdom topic. Does belief in jesus ..... and the Kingdom, mean the same thing?  My thoughts....I think not. He will say to many, I do not know you. In reference to those... who clearly thought they did. [If we assume this verse actually from Jesus]. I often have a strange conviction that it's not up to me to call whom I want to call. It's his call. "No one can come to me unless the Father draws him" makes me think that I don't have the right to try to pick and choose who is called. And to go further, if I have knowledge, given to me.... who am I to pass it out. If he gave it to me, then I should have confidence that he can and does give it to others.... as he chooses. And to further this, let's just say that I have a code word or phrase, or secret handshake of those in the Kingdom. Would I then tell the world what it was, only to make it hard to distinguish between the world and the kingdom. ? Strange thoughts, I know. Truth is, that I see things in scripture that i no longer feel as though I am allowed to expound on. As if I have eyes to see, and ears to hear, but it's the key's to the unlocking of the truth in the form of biblical analogy. I was not told it by any man, nor did I read it, etc. LOL, I know I am now sounding like an knostic. But, I think the bible validates this.... but it also unvalidates it, by "go yea therefore" as for example, Paul did
> 
> Whether we agree or disagree, I appreciate being able to run thoughts, lines of reasoning, etc, by someone whom I can tell has a knowledge of the scriptures, whom does not resort to googling every topic, but rather works from within his recollection. Thanks



I can't cause anyone to see the Kingdom. They see, if they've been born again, with spiritual eyes that have been opened by the Holy Spirit. There is a teaching, by man ABOUT things concerning the kingdom. But only those who have already been enabled spiritually(born again) can receive it.(remember, "the foolishness of preaching")
If you have been born again, you are able to see the kingdom. Jesus said this to Nicodemus. And you are enabled to enter the kingdom. But just as the majority of the Hebrew children let their doubts and fears rule their hearts, insomuch as they refused to enter Canaan, resulting in wandering in a wilderness until they died. It's still going on today spiritually. Moses was able to see the "place of rest", but he was not allowed to enter because of his disobedience. They came "short of it" , and we also can come short of it if we do not "fear", as we are admonished in Hebrew.4:1.


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## Israel (Dec 24, 2019)

I say a man has to "work out" what he believes, what he is spiritually equipped to sense...what convicts him of its being "real" as he approaches it...and that the [same] spirit of faith given him as all those who in faith have gone before will compel him in knowing, to knowing, this is for all (of that same faith) and not exclusive to himself, and the spirit of Christ will no less compel him to a desire (contained in it) for their shared occupation.

He discovers giants in the land, no doubt, but not to a despair, but in faith with this cry "yes, as big as they appear even they are made small in its greatness".

Our brother Abraham set out, or better _was led out _of faith, but even then, not knowing its full sufficiency...and so lied to the King about his and Sarah's relationship..._not yet knowing_ the same faith propelling to glorious discovery was also _no less_ a faith set to the preserving. He learned this...was _made to_ learn this.

The righteousness of that Kingdom is made real to us in its seeking...but also no less in fullness of imparting that same righteousness as it is apprehended, that we come to see the weakness of any craftiness or deceit of any kind. And so we learn the command "go and preach the gospel" is first and foremost a gift to us that we may learn the gospel and not as we may have once supposed "I am being sent because I know it so well".

But this is only coming from a man so steeped in pride, so given to a cleverness where once all he believed was that his excelling allowed him to do what none other could ever make work, by putting the cart before the horse. Into every ditch he drove as he had to. Till he begins to see a better way.

Leave the power where it belongs...in front.

There is _no other way_.


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## welderguy (Dec 24, 2019)

gordon 2 said:


> So I agree that it is not a endtime prophecy and it is about the kingdom, but what happened to believers when Jesus returned to the Father. He sent his Comforter. He sent it to whom?  He sent it for all that believe. Now believers are with the Comforter and by established definition with the Father and Jesus. Why would some not be chosen and not to the Kingdom? If they are to Christ are they not of the Kingdom? If they are convinced of the hope intrinsic to Christianity are they not in the Kingdom-- even if the Kingdom seems nebulous to them?
> 
> You and I have said that our Kingdom is the Christian's rest or our homeland. I have said the rest comes from the idea that Canaan Land was a rest for the Hebrews. Now our spiritual nature was changed with the full ministry of our Lord, and so we need no Canaan Land. We need a home suitable for which we have been changed to. It is a spiritual kingdom. It is a kingdom of the heart... which is far greater than any earthly kingdom. Why a kingdom of the heart? Because of a promise made beyond and far ahead of the promises made to the Hebrews.
> 
> ...



I think you'll find most of my answers to these same questions in my previous post #59. 
But, your last question:  " ... what is the good of our rest? What is your experience?"
I believe there's a genuine rest(peace)of the soul when it finally lays hold on Who is reigning as King over every aspect of their being.  That soul no longer works to gain anything, but works BECAUSE he has gained everything through grace. He is pursuing hard after the "Pearl of great price".


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 24, 2019)

Our brother Abraham set out, or better _was led out _of faith, but even then, not knowing its full sufficiency...and so lied to the King about his and Sarah's relationship..._not yet knowing_ the same faith propelling to glorious discovery was also _no less_ a faith set to the preserving. He learned this...was _made to_ learn this.

.[/QUOTE]
I am relieved...  when I see how patient God was with Abraham. Abraham was invincible due to the promise God made until his seed was established. He set out on a journey of faith, not knowing where he was going, but walking in faith. He was told "not to go back that way" but did so during a famine rather than trust God. But, God in spite of his lack of faith, did not break from his promise, he did not punish Abraham by the king sleeping with his wife, but rather protected him. Oh how we all fall short of faith, but God is patient. Abraham struggled with faith, even to the point of trying to help God fulfill a promise but it  did not result in that promise being broken, or punishment, but rather in blessing. When I reflect on this story, I have to admit that tears well up in me.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 26, 2019)

1gr8bldr said:


> Our brother Abraham set out, or better _was led out _of faith, but even then, not knowing its full sufficiency...and so lied to the King about his and Sarah's relationship..._not yet knowing_ the same faith propelling to glorious discovery was also _no less_ a faith set to the preserving. He learned this...was _made to_ learn this.
> 
> .


I am relieved...  when I see how patient God was with Abraham. Abraham was invincible due to the promise God made until his seed was established. He set out on a journey of faith, not knowing where he was going, but walking in faith. He was told "not to go back that way" but did so during a famine rather than trust God. But, God in spite of his lack of faith, did not break from his promise, he did not punish Abraham by the king sleeping with his wife, but rather protected him. Oh how we all fall short of faith, but God is patient. Abraham struggled with faith, even to the point of trying to help God fulfill a promise but it  did not result in that promise being broken, or punishment, but rather in blessing. When I reflect on this story, I have to admit that tears well up in me.[/QUOTE]Quite the life story of Abraham, his faith, from beginning to end. Took most his  life to get there. His faith eventually grew to the point that he saw God's promise fulfilled, Issac born. But much more than this. This is extreme faith. When God told him to sacrifice Issac, he had come to trust God so much, that even though Issac had not come of age to have fathered anyone, his seed not having become great, many, etc as the promise stated, he reckoned that God must be intending to raise him from the dead. . I wonder if or how much struggle was involved here that may not be recorded. And I wonder how he knew for certain that God had told him so? Story still stands. Great faith. I think of myself. how does faith increase. Because we read it so and assume it applys to us? Or is it that we have seen as Abraham did, that God is with us, that God test us, not so that he knows what we will do, but rather that we come to know. Just thinking out loud....pondering faith


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 26, 2019)

1gr8bldr said:


> I am relieved...  when I see how patient God was with Abraham. Abraham was invincible due to the promise God made until his seed was established. He set out on a journey of faith, not knowing where he was going, but walking in faith. He was told "not to go back that way" but did so during a famine rather than trust God. But, God in spite of his lack of faith, did not break from his promise, he did not punish Abraham by the king sleeping with his wife, but rather protected him. Oh how we all fall short of faith, but God is patient. Abraham struggled with faith, even to the point of trying to help God fulfill a promise but it  did not result in that promise being broken, or punishment, but rather in blessing. When I reflect on this story, I have to admit that tears well up in me.


Quite the life story of Abraham, his faith, from beginning to end. Took most his  life to get there. His faith eventually grew to the point that he saw God's promise fulfilled, Issac born. But much more than this. This is extreme faith. When God told him to sacrifice Issac, he had come to trust God so much, that even though Issac had not come of age to have fathered anyone, his seed not having become great, many, etc as the promise stated, he reckoned that God must be intending to raise him from the dead. . I wonder if or how much struggle was involved here that may not be recorded. And I wonder how he knew for certain that God had told him so? Story still stands. Great faith. I think of myself. how does faith increase. Because we read it so and assume it applys to us? Or is it that we have seen as Abraham did, that God is with us, that God test us, not so that he knows what we will do, but rather that we come to know. Just thinking out loud....pondering faith[/QUOTE]


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## welderguy (Dec 27, 2019)

Jesus said "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

He didn't say it was impossible, just extremely difficult. Because, we know in itself, riches are not the problem. The love of those riches above love for God is very much the problem. He told us we are going to have to "hate" the things we loved the most, EVEN our wife and children!, to enter this kingdom. But we also know this word "hate" is not used as we normally use it today. It's used as "esteem as less". Same word is used when He said "Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated".

But concerning the rich man who loves his riches most, I am reminded of another parable speaking of a great gulf separating a rich man from something much richer. Many think it's a future torment, but I believe it's going on now.


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## StriperAddict (Dec 28, 2019)

When we introduce complexity to the simple gospel, it becomes a works based metric. This fosters performance to validate ourselves and make God happier with us. It just gets me saddened for those searching hearts that sooo need to see His love is free, not come on the heels of anything but grace thru faith, taking the sting of death away and replacing it with Jesus' life. 
That's all folks...  a yoke easy, a burden light. The only striving is to enter this rest, His rest, which is no strife at all.


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## welderguy (Dec 28, 2019)

StriperAddict said:


> When we introduce complexity to the simple gospel, it becomes a works based metric. This fosters performance to validate ourselves and make God happier with us. It just gets me saddened for those searching hearts that sooo need to see His love is free, not come on the heels of anything but grace thru faith, taking the sting of death away and replacing it with Jesus' life.
> That's all folks...  a yoke easy, a burden light. The only striving is to enter this rest, His rest, which is no strife at all.



No need to be saddened. Those searching hearts are searching because they're being drawn.
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

...and the One ,who is drawing into His rest, is also equipping for the works that do follow them.(Rev.14:13)


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## welderguy (Dec 31, 2019)

Does the "every thing" in this verse really mean every thing?

Ecclesiastes 3:11 
11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

Even Jeffrey Dahmer? 
Wow!
...even me?

I'm also reminded of this.:

"I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 31, 2019)

welderguy said:


> Does the "every thing" in this verse really mean every thing?
> 
> Ecclesiastes 3:11
> 11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
> ...



What about verses that say God will have mercy on some or that he made some evil to show the others the way? Why would he go to all that trouble if all means all? What was all that other mercy for?

Romans 9:13-15
So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” 14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Absolutely not! 15For He says to Moses: “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 

Romans 9:21
Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 

Yet He did say this;
Romans 11:32
For God has consigned all men to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all.


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## welderguy (Dec 31, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> What about verses that say God will have mercy on some or that he made some evil to show the others the way? Why would he go to all that trouble if all means all? What was all that other mercy for?
> 
> Romans 9:13-15
> So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” 14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Absolutely not! 15For He says to Moses: “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
> ...



It's a kingdom thing. Some are chosen for the kingdom and others are not. 
It's not even speaking of eternal habitation.
Remember..."Many are called, but few are chosen".
.....for the kingdom.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 31, 2019)

welderguy said:


> It's a kingdom thing. Some are chosen for the kingdom and others are not.
> It's not even speaking of eternal habitation.
> Remember..."Many are called, but few are chosen".
> .....for the kingdom.


If so, why is the word "Mercy" used instead of chosen? God having mercy and compassion on some, just for the Kingdom and then mercy and compassion on all for eternal life? 
What purpose was God's mercy and compassion for just the Kingdom?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 31, 2019)

Yet when I think about it, I would think God would have mercy and compassion on those lumps of clay he formed such as Pharaoh and the Jews to make his plan happen the way he wanted it to.
So God had compassion and mercy on some for his Kingdom and then in the end will have compassion for the evil lumps of clay and all of Israel for blinding them to make His plan happen the way he wanted it to?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 31, 2019)

It's interesting to try and figure it all out but Paul did say;

Romans 11:32-34
For God has consigned all men to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all. 33 O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways!  34“Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor?”


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## welderguy (Dec 31, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> Yet when I think about it, I would think God would have mercy and compassion on those lumps of clay he formed such as Pharaoh and the Jews to make his plan happen the way he wanted it to.
> So God had compassion and mercy on some for his Kingdom and then in the end will have compassion for the evil lumps of clay and all of Israel for blinding them to make His plan happen the way he wanted it to?



The first shall be last, and the last shall be first. Things are not quite always as they may appear.


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## welderguy (Dec 31, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> It's interesting to try and figure it all out but Paul did say;
> 
> Romans 11:32-34
> For God has consigned all men to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all. 33 O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways!  34“Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor?”



To be His disciple, we are called to take up our cross daily and learn of Him. The cross is an instrument of death and suffering. But this suffering is what teaches us of Him. In other words, it's not a bed of roses being His disciple, but the rewards are unmeasurable. That's the real mercy.


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## welderguy (Dec 31, 2019)

Paul said "that I might know Him, and the power of His resurrection."
We have to die to something to know Him this way. 
I believe we must die to this world.


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## Israel (Jan 1, 2020)

"Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but _this_ one thing _I do_, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,..."



"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of _his_ good pleasure."



"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."



"But without faith _it is_ impossible to please _him_: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and _that_ he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."


Apprehended, captured, caught,  secured, separated to (and no less from), arrested (made prisoner?...too extreme?)? To the end of apprehending.

Is there not something that we all, to some lesser or greater extent (or at least in times past to those of you already made perfect, which I cannot deny is not only possible...but also made so to my benefit...) have taken for granted?

All any of us has ever known...is being.  And, in that...do any of us have the slightest doubt we have it? Regardless of any of our esteem of it (which also itself testifies _to us_ of our having) regardless of how we appear to ourselves, think of ourselves,...to lesser or greater extents at all, consider ourselves...we remain to ourselves...ourselves. At best, we can only acknowledge it.

"I am" seems beyond our touch or ability to manipulate, regardless of appearance, like or dislike, approval or non. It is in that sense...when we plumb the depths of it, entirely out from, or in any way, under our control.

In the silliest terms, having it we may seek to do "something about it", but even in the "having it" we might all agree (or argue, it matters not!) that to ourselves we can only imagine a time we were not/are not, but none of us (at least _I think_) would say with any sincerity "then I willed myself into being".

And we might no less concur, if we spoke plainly to one another, so many of the things of which our opinions of, (or about) "being" are (were) entirely out of our own control. Being might get hammered, or caressed, and our own being may have been hammered or caressed...but nonetheless we still "have it". (here, perhaps, we might also come to some sort of agreement, that both caressing and hammering...on that great continuum, leaves us in experience of ourselves truly _not knowing_ "which is right?") Still to "ourselves" we assume _in right_...to be who and what we are. In that sense...who has any choice?
(All of a man's ways are right in his own eyes) This plainly excludes...no man.

This does not deny that there _is _right...but might cause a man to consider "is there any that has "right" eye/eyes? But, no man would even begin to consider that if he believes his own to be "right". He will just continually find himself at odds with all others, who, like him, believe they do. This hostility will also run a continuum from "I will not to be your friend (but will allow you to continue!)" to murder. The extreme of "I don't like... (am not) like you." But, the nature, the essence...is the same.

Science and/or the science of psychology simply attests to, and can never refute ultimately what is plain _and true_, even if the simplicity of it for a time seems hidden to it, or us. A thing owes all of its manifestation to its form. And forming. A thing will show itself, as it is. Here even the most strenuously denying_ scientist _undoes himself by denying, and in his denying...while setting out to prove the very thing he seeks in mind to deny...everything has _essence. An undeniable nature. A true consistency. _Even if that nature is not known. Or yet known.

There are great mysteries...even in the material world. How can there not be?

Jesus spoke to Nicodemus.

If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you _of_ heavenly things?

I am less persuaded Jesus was saying "how do you not know all about or even understand the _simple _earthly things, so that I can then speak to you of the heavenly".

Than I am being more persuaded toward..."how do you not walk in awe...continually..._not knowing_...and yet being persuaded you have being, and even that to "being" a teacher in Israel?"

I am blessed to be among those who consider the Lord's death. Who consider His dying...for us, that we might know life in Him. I fear (if fear be the right word?) there is absolutely nothing "I" can do, have ever done, could ever do, other than _to make less of it than it is_. And I have not the means, having nothing more than that, than to _appear as a liar. _Anything that might be said "about it" is so eclipsed _by it, that even my saying that..._

I am stunned in this. For whatever I have in believing in undeniable nature, or better, being persuaded to it, that the unfathomable depths of "being", and  "a" Being must be, and cannot but be, true to its nature.

How One always true...to its (His) nature...can be made to be...what "it" (He) is not! And _allow_ that..._not resist that_ experiencing of, and in "it" self...Himself! All of "not being" while in being...so fully tasted. To know, in all knowing, in daily taking up the cross..."what shall I say then Father save me from this hour? It is for this very hour I have come..."

For he hath made him _to be_ sin for us, who knew no sin;

_Stunning._

No less in what it does to the man "of sin":

that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

No less...stunning.


And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.



And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men _it is_ impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.


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## welderguy (Jan 1, 2020)

Israel said:


> "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
> Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but _this_ one thing _I do_, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,..."
> 
> 
> ...



Yes. The master gives the talents according to ability. The servants are expected to use the talents profitably. There are definite consequences of their use or misuse.


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## StriperAddict (Jan 1, 2020)

welderguy said:


> Paul said "that I might know Him, and the power of His resurrection."
> We have to die to something to know Him this way.
> I believe we must die to this world.


We did, sometimes we don't believe it.


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## StriperAddict (Jan 1, 2020)

welderguy said:


> It's a kingdom thing. Some are chosen for the kingdom and others are not.
> It's not even speaking of eternal habitation.
> Remember..."Many are called, but few are chosen".
> .....for the kingdom.


Pardon my backsliding to a prior post (lol), this may add flavor to the misunderstood "many are called, few are chosen" area:


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## welderguy (Jan 1, 2020)

StriperAddict said:


> Pardon my backsliding to a prior post (lol), this may add flavor to the misunderstood "many are called, few are chosen" area:



Is everyone born again? 
If everyone is a potential candidate for the kingdom as Mr. Farley is declaring, then everyone would have to be born again. Agree?


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## StriperAddict (Jan 2, 2020)

welderguy said:


> Is everyone born again?
> If everyone is a potential candidate for the kingdom as Mr. Farley is declaring, then everyone would have to be born again. Agree?


No. This is not universalism nor a shut down for members of humanity still above ground who can still call on Jesus and ask Him in. The door is still open. That's what is at stake here, the gospel available to all.
Peace


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## welderguy (Jan 2, 2020)

StriperAddict said:


> No. This is not universalism nor a shut down for members of humanity still above ground who can still call on Jesus and ask Him in. The door is still open. That's what is at stake here, the gospel available to all.
> Peace



So explain to me how regeneration fits into your above statement. Or are you simply leaving that part out altogether?


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 2, 2020)

The Wedding Feast parable lines up with Romans 11. The Jews rejection to come to the feast let the invitation go to the "main road."

In Romans 11, the Jews rejection allowed salvation to go to the Gentiles. How much greater riches will their fullness bring!
"But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!"


In Romans 11, there will be a reconciliation. I'm not sure that is mentioned in the Wedding Feast parable.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 2, 2020)

Important part of the Wedding Feast is that they were given wedding garments to wear. They didn't have to have their own.

I guess to be invited and not come is bad enough, but to show up and not wear the garments provided? That your own garments are good enough to satisfy the King?


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## welderguy (Jan 2, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> The Wedding Feast parable lines up with Romans 11. The Jews rejection to come to the feast let the invitation go to the "main road."
> 
> In Romans 11, the Jews rejection allowed salvation to go to the Gentiles. How much greater riches will their fullness bring!
> "But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!"
> ...



Mr. Farley is incorrect if he thinks the kingdom is about any physical nation. It's not physical but rather spiritual. The physical Jew/gentile correlation was representative only.(types and shadows)


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 2, 2020)

welderguy said:


> Mr. Farley is incorrect if he thinks the kingdom is about any physical nation. It's not physical but rather spiritual. The physical Jew/gentile correlation was representative only.(types and shadows)


Perhaps the wedding feast is a shadow of the spiritual but Romans 11 sure isn't.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 2, 2020)

welderguy said:


> Mr. Farley is incorrect if he thinks the kingdom is about any physical nation. It's not physical but rather spiritual. The physical Jew/gentile correlation was representative only.(types and shadows)


It could be a shadow of a future spiritual event but it did represent physical Israel's rejection of Jesus and salvation being offered to those on the main road.(Gentiles)

That was Jesus' story about the events that were about to unfold. That physical Israel would reject the Messiah and their loss was the worlds gain. This is what Paul reveals in his revelation. Paul's mystery/secret!


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 2, 2020)

welderguy said:


> Mr. Farley is incorrect if he thinks the kingdom is about any physical nation. It's not physical but rather spiritual. The physical Jew/gentile correlation was representative only.(types and shadows)


In Farley's defense, I don't think he ever said it wasn't as you see it.


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## welderguy (Jan 2, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> Perhaps the wedding feast is a shadow of the spiritual but Romans 11 sure isn't.



Romans 11 is showing how the physical represents the spiritual.


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## welderguy (Jan 2, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> In Farley's defense, I don't think he ever said it wasn't as you see it.



His explanation of the parable was applied physically. It has a much deeper spiritual meaning and application.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 2, 2020)

welderguy said:


> Romans 11 is showing how the physical represents the spiritual.


Deep down, when you think about it(Christianity), doesn't everything physical represent the spiritual?


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 2, 2020)

welderguy said:


> His explanation of the parable was applied physically. It has a much deeper spiritual meaning and application.


Does the wedding garments given to us from Jesus represent grace or do they represent a new Spiritual body at our physical resurrection? I'm not even sure if you believe in a future physical resurrection since everything physical points to the spiritual.


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## welderguy (Jan 2, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> Does the wedding garments given to us from Jesus represent grace or do they represent a new Spiritual body at our physical resurrection? I'm not even sure if you believe in a future physical resurrection since everything physical points to the spiritual.



Robe of righteousness.

And yes, I believe what's sown in corruption will be raised in incorruption. Our physical bodies will be changed into spiritual bodies.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 2, 2020)

welderguy said:


> Romans 11 is showing how the physical represents the spiritual.


I've read Romans 11 so many times, I'm pretty sure it pertains to physical Israel. Actually starting in chapter 9.

That being said, maybe at some time everything physical will become spiritual. I believe either it will either "all" become spiritual or it wall "all" stay physical.
That right now we are in a moment in time where we are both. Perhaps the Kingdom right now is both. Maybe the Kingdom is spiritual but will become physical.

God "became" physical when he incarnate as a man. God made creation. There is this huge thing called the "physical" that is a huge part of what God is and became.

Jesus arose physically and ascended physically. Now for him to one day, just return as a Spiritual entity? And us seeing him as he is and becoming like him?  The Unity of God? Everything returning or becoming spiritual? It's possible.

I'm still having a hard time separating the physical from the spiritual. Especially since God hasn't separated it. Since God created the physical and Himself "became" physical.

Well God has separated the two, but he hasn't made the physical become the spiritual yet. Right now we still have both. Maybe we always will have. It's possible.


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## Israel (Jan 3, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> Important part of the Wedding Feast is that they were given wedding garments to wear. They didn't have to have their own.
> 
> I guess to be invited and not come is bad enough, but to show up and not wear the garments provided? That your own garments are good enough to satisfy the King?




To be covered by anything but the Lord Himself; that He is our _only covering_, and that He alone _has been given us_ as our covering...is that not what Paul himself speaks of here?

Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. For me to write the same things to you _is_ not tedious, but for you _it is_ safe.

Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation! For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, _of_ the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which _is_ from the law, but that which _is_ through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.



Why write to gentiles of all the many things a man_ like Paul_ (but actually, Paul himself!) has already striven to make clear are of no eternal benefit? Why return again to mentioning circumcision, walking blameless according to the law, Hebrew zeal, all those things which have already been plain the gentiles were never "subject to", and that even_ if one found himself at one time_...subject to, are now fulfilled only in Christ?

We know of those factions who proposed _even the gentile believers must proceed through THE law to Christ,_ as though "OK, now in order to fully appreciate and enter into Christ you must learn of the frustration _inherently transmitted in the Law_, by willing reception of _that Law. "Get cut!"_

Might Paul be addressing when he speaks so directly to those of that persuasion...(in other letters) even with derision:

"I see what's going on there...you want the gentiles (in a sense) to be as miserable as we had become _in frustration_...in order to now rightly appreciate the liberty of, and entrance into the Christ!" In short...no one can be "happy" know the pure truth of joy, till they have suffered as much as "we have".

I ask you, is that far from the sentiment expressed in acts 15? In regards to such?

"Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"

I don't know. I don't know if Paul is saying that (thus the word might is given to me). And rightly would any man condemn me for mere speculations.

In one sense though, does this not show the jealousy of misery? By the recounting of such frustration(s), with no less, an attendant protest "this is not fair! This is just not fair! They who never assumed to themselves the burden of discharging such weight in law, should now have no less an equal entrance?" How can that be "fair?"

They were "wild childs!" Didn't the law tame us, make us ready...(and as only such readiness is _absolutely necessary_) to receive the Messiah?" _We endured_ a harsh taskmaster, they knew none! We went without cookies while they partied! It must be that the only way one can appreciate (learn of, begin to know, rightly enter!) is secured by the Law...and that...ours!

But Paul saw something. (I believe) "All those prior bets are off!" This thing, this Kingdom, this Christ (Who is no _thing!_)...is so far exceeding all any man may know that it matters not if he were under a ton of Law and laws... or an ounce...(which even the gentiles knew "in conscience") that no amount of service to it (even a man's own conscience!) can provide entrance. "My conscience is clear" he wrote in another place...but he dared not assume this is what made him innocent!

Ahhh the blessed rigors of faith without which no man...can enter! Absolutely "levels" the playing field...and this is first experienced in "the man". I say rigors...not as a burden a man executes...but that which blessedly executes the man to a straightening...so that, if finding even in himself anything of which he might put confidence...there is plain rebuke against any, and _everything. _Every _thing. _

_In truth, t_he very thing itself...that causes _him to search himself_...for confidence, must be dealt with. This is the thing he will "put on". "I have years of service?" LOL.
"I have suffered...some? much? greatly?" LOL. "Been very studious...intelligent, sought meticulously?" LOL. "Tried to do what the Bible says?" LOL "Had faith to speak boldly? Prophesied? Seen healings at my hand?" LOL. "Subjected myself to such and such a discipline as ministered by "this church" or "that church"...held as diligently as any man is able to "the doctrines" as I diligently made every effort to understand?" LOL. "Been so severe to my "flesh" that I am unrecognizable among men?" LOL.

I am convinced Paul saw these things...especially after having been plainly relieved of all the Laws...burdens. There still remained a "thing"...as potent in Jew and gentile alike, and therefore ubiquitous to and in all men..."self approval"...the terrible weight of which no man could even begin to see or know...except all else be so thoroughly dealt with in Christ...that all and every man would then see it...and then see his _utter powerlessness_ before it!

Wretched man that I am!

You could say (and I would have to bear it!)

"You yourself are making a law of "this thing", and you, no less than the very worst Judaizer, the craftiest cutter of flesh seeking to bring men into bondage to "this thing" by forcing its general recognition, general "acceptance", general acknowledgment...are then no better!"

Yes! Yes! Precisely!

There remains though this question. Have any...seen the One in whom self approval is trodden under foot? One able to trust Himself to a faithful Creator...without any regard of how He appeared...to Himself?

What does one do when quoting Psalm 22 to confidently affirm the Christ?

What shall we do, brothers?

Dress...ourselves?

God forbid!

The Christ has entered His temple with a scourge of cords...and beating every "quid pro quo" merchant mercilessly so that someone else might be seen. He is the Lord, and He is relentless to have His.

Who can dwell with everlasting burnings? Asked Isaiah.

The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

Who alone...gave all his garment to the fire?


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## StriperAddict (Jan 3, 2020)

welderguy said:


> So explain to me how regeneration fits into your above statement. Or are you simply leaving that part out altogether?


Regeneration and being baptised into Christ (synonyms) occur as God saves the one who comes and receives Christ. To them who receive Him, He gives the right to become (regenerate) children of God. Don't think Andrew Farley is saying different.


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## StriperAddict (Jan 3, 2020)

Farley's explanation makes more sense than the confusing doctrine if "pick and choose." If we keep going down that rabbit hole we'll have hearers who will never know and have the joy and assurance of their salvation. (Unless, like much of religious doctrine, that is an intent. )


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## StriperAddict (Jan 3, 2020)

Yup


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## welderguy (Jan 3, 2020)

StriperAddict said:


> Farley's explanation makes more sense than the confusing doctrine if "pick and choose." If we keep going down that rabbit hole we'll have hearers who will never know and have the joy and assurance of their salvation. (Unless, like much of religious doctrine, that is an intent. )



If I depended on man for my knowing of joy, and assurance of salvation, then I would agree. But I don't.


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## welderguy (Jan 3, 2020)

StriperAddict said:


> Farley's explanation makes more sense than the confusing doctrine if "pick and choose." If we keep going down that rabbit hole we'll have hearers who will never know and have the joy and assurance of their salvation. (Unless, like much of religious doctrine, that is an intent. )



There is definitely a called and chosen bunch.(Rev.17:14) 
Not sure why you find it confusing , but I do know the truth can set you free from your confusion.


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## Israel (Jan 4, 2020)

There are two guards and two doors. One door leads to freedom, and the other to death. One guard always lies, the other always tells the truth. They know which they are. They know where the two doors go. You do not know which guard is which or which door is which. You may ask one yes or no question. What do you ask to determine which door leads to freedom?


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## welderguy (Jan 4, 2020)

Israel said:


> There are two guards and two doors. One door leads to freedom, and the other to death. One guard always lies, the other always tells the truth. They know which they are. They know where the two doors go. You do not know which guard is which or which door is which. You may ask one yes or no question. What do you ask to determine which door leads to freedom?



Maybe...."could all three of us go through your door?" ...???


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## gordon 2 (Jan 4, 2020)

Israel said:


> There are two guards and two doors. One door leads to freedom, and the other to death. One guard always lies, the other always tells the truth. They know which they are. They know where the two doors go. You do not know which guard is which or which door is which. You may ask one yes or no question. What do you ask to determine which door leads to freedom?



Is fragrance a sign?


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## gordon 2 (Jan 4, 2020)

welderguy said:


> There is definitely a called and chosen bunch.(Rev.17:14)
> Not sure why you find it confusing , but I do know the truth can set you free from your confusion.




48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

So I could change the word appointed with "predestined" and I could change it to the words " those who had reason to have faith in Christ".

Now it is presently my understanding that the reason  to have faith in Christ and to be grafted into eternal life simply was because some feared the Lord  or had faith to begin with-- or they were due their faith "written in the book of life" and destined to eternal life with their faith in God added to the Christian sect.

Perhaps one of the greatest example of faith leading to eternal life is the faith displayed by the Roman soldier( centurion), Capernaum, asking for help from Jesus because a servant of his was paralyzed " lies paralyzed". Jesus asks should I go and the answer given was possibly one of the greatest faith filled replies in scripture. The centurion had not invented his faith in the last six hours of his life or  in a panic since his servant's affliction!

Now I would also suggest that, as it has simply been stated on this forum a few times by "believers",  and it is that one of the premises for "believers" was that before they were "believers"... they were believers. I mean, why would a none believer tug at our Lord's coat? Why would a believer add to his faith Christ, if that believer had not of himself or herself some seriousness and personal responsibility for their own spiritual life and health? And that seriousness and responsibility is some degree of self awareness of one's faith.

Now that all of mankind was predestined to walk in faith is a no brainer. Those who chose to walk it? Now that requires choice, for just as we chose to be faithful to a spouse, or to an employer, to our neigbour and make of it many responsibilities, so it is with faith.


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## Israel (Jan 4, 2020)

It's a recollected grade school riddle that somehow reminded me of certain matters as we hash out, or seek to hash out the "how things are" with one another. 

If I am merely being coy and adding confusion, the lie I might say is "I really don't mean to". (And if you want "an" answer to that riddle just plug it into Google)

But yet somehow it might still (despite me) have some utility? (How much is God able to do...despite me...is a question I might better ask!) Maybe like...everything! Maybe..._not maybe_ at all!

But anyway...where our, or as our_ only seeming _differences _seem_ to present themselves (too many seems? not enough?) is somehow highlighted in a thing stated in the riddle, that by it's stating, could be a help?



> "They know which they are."



If I say "My inclination is to believe "I am not the liar" (let me stop laughing!)

nevermind, I don't think I can.


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## Israel (Jan 4, 2020)

Ain't it funny? Perspectives and such, I mean.


It seems like there's a never ending (even in myself!) Q&A going on. (Is that what it means to enquire in His temple?...I know it's unfair to ask any of y'all...so...ha ha! I need mercy...more! again! and again!)

But anyway...it's like there's a great debate in what holds no argument against us!

Is it true..."In Him we live, and move...and have our being"? Hey I need more mercy for posing that! This is getting me crazy happy!


Is there a bone left to pick? Oy...more, Lord!


It's like...does "whosoever will" oppose "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,"?

or is that opposed by

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that _were_ on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Don't it seem like the "choice" is only presented after



> And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD



With the choices then offered...not good...at all?



> whether the gods which your fathers served that _were_ on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell:




One man sees choice as a dread burden...one man sees choice as all that indicates liberty! What do you do when you see both? Where can you go?

One man sees anything, and almost everything as an insult to "God's sovereignty" and is prepared to wage war against anything that hints at man's ability. He has hope to reverence God rightly.

Another says "no...God's sovereignty is just as easily (and no less) upheld in His being able to make man...with ability!" He has hope to reverence God rightly.

Who else but God?

Who

else

but

God?

Can give either man...hope?
Give both men...hope.
Give any man hope?


And how? (Hey, I need more mercy...now!)

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

But dead men can't do anything of themselves! But yeah! We ain't!

Man do we get stuck in this time thingy..."when?"


Can it be we have all been given time...to do nothing more...than love one another? And if so...doesn't that help us see the "when" of the Kingdom to come?


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## gordon 2 (Jan 4, 2020)

Brother... remember our religious and spiritual faith... We are of the dissenters:

dissident


dissentient


objector


protester


disputant

rejectionist

We trouble ourselves with what is by judging that for some and perhaps even ourselves it is not or might not be that their's or our's is a wholesome faith, all in the name of fellowship, duty and worship.  We walk by faith with an insight that it is biblical to boot out wolfs... like a Red under ever bed!


Add to our faith (The Dissenter denomination's) the mixes of politics, economics, real estate, taxes, and it keeps the pot boiling. We are to ourselves to a promised land- a mini all in all, all of our own making. Or ours is as a New Second Temple time... with a new  ravenous run at what scripture means only we call it the Dispensation of Grace and claim this is ok and very different since we are Christians...  etc...

O Happy New Yr!


I am so filled with non-confident doubt that I have to question, " Is faith essential if one has the inheritance of eternal life?" And in fact I must doubt that my inheritance to eternal life is for now!!!!!!!! Because I would not need to even form the question!  And the Kingdom is for now? And in what way did Jesus mean it was "in you"?  Is my I even of the elect? !!!!!!! And I besides myself? It's a darn good thing we got solid doctrines to guide us, otherwise we'd be good as the lost.

It's a good thing we are Dissenter after all and I guess we have been predestined to be such... maybe? Not really our choice is it?  And it is good we have a Dissenter's recess in rhetorical question-- I suppose.

O and Happy New yr bros. Can't wait for  all the new and old questions and of course those I will form myself.


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## Israel (Jan 4, 2020)

gordon 2 said:


> Brother... remember our religious and spiritual faith... We are of the dissenters:
> 
> dissident
> 
> ...



what if...what if...
what if....



"Look at them, not two in agreement!'


Yeah but...



They still love one another!


?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


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## gordon 2 (Jan 4, 2020)

Don't! Love means never having to say your sorry.


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## Israel (Jan 4, 2020)

Ha!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Story_(1970_film) 

Most popular girl baby name 1970-1984


Jennifer


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## StriperAddict (Jan 4, 2020)

2 Cor: 11-3 
EHV
But I am afraid that somehow, just as the serpent deceived Eve with his cunning, so also your minds might be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 

As a recent nuance post quipped, thirst and water are tied together like truth and inquiry. I hope ones journey lands them in the grace and knowledge of Christ, in all His fullness and sufficiency. That's my one life, and life's message. The grace of God doesn't confuse but liberates, even ones like me trapped in religious self effort until the joy of His love and grace came into view. No I take no credit for it, but I also rejoice in those made whole by it, choosing Christ now in daily dependence. 
Take me for a fool if you must, but I'll continue to share the writings of some who are blessed with the sharing of the gospel of grace more clear than I can most times. The last battlefield is the mind, and mine is being renewed daily by His life within. I believe there are more curious folks coming and reading words here and IMO I have a burden and joy of being as articulate and clear as possible, no confusion ever intended. Nor going after some New thing ... as if grace is a problem we bark at instead of embracing. This gospel of grace is not a doctrine, but the very life of Christ poured out freely to those who recognize they want and need it. 
Aside from that I cannot wrestle in things that could distract the hidden readers, those for whom Christ died and yes, He bids them come to the lavish table of grace as well.
Peace.


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## welderguy (Jan 4, 2020)

StriperAddict said:


> Regeneration and being baptised into Christ (synonyms) occur as God saves the one who comes and receives Christ. To them who receive Him, He gives the right to become (regenerate) children of God. Don't think Andrew Farley is saying different.



Herein lies a big problem I see with your view of the gospel. Above, you said this:

"...God saves the one who comes and receives Christ."

First of all, my belief is that Jesus died for the sins of the entire world. (Every sin of every individual person). So, in that way, every person is "saved". Now, here's where people glaze over and start daydreaming when I continue speaking. Even though every individual's sins have been paid for, they do not "know" this to be the case unless the Spirit reveals it.(awakens them to spiritual things; ie born again/regenerated/ baptized with the Holy Ghost).
At this point they see the kingdom, and are equipped/enabled to enter the kingdom. This is where their "great fight of afflictions" begin. Some press into the kingdom, some turn back(denying the Lord who bought them). This doesn't mean they have lost their eternal salvation, but it does mean they have not entered the kingdom...in this life.
The gospel is the telling of the good news that Jesus took our sins and made them His own...AND it's the admonition and encouragement to hold fast to the faith and press on into the kingdom. It's for those who have ears to hear it(born again). Not everyone is born again YET. Some are not changed until they die. But ALL will be changed. Just not ALL in this life.

This is what I eventually wanted to say in this thread, but I got sidetracked many times. It's ALL good.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jan 4, 2020)

welderguy said:


> Herein lies a big problem I see with your view of the gospel. Above, you said this:
> 
> "...God saves the one who comes and receives Christ."
> 
> ...


Do you think Jesus died for the sins of the world.... or redeemed us from the curse of sin? Not a trick question, just something I ponder


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## gordon 2 (Jan 4, 2020)

welderguy said:


> Herein lies a big problem I see with your view of the gospel. Above, you said this:
> 
> "...God saves the one who comes and receives Christ."
> 
> ...




Finally it is out.   So just to check. This is what jumps at me.>>>>  The Buddhist, the Shinto, the Hindu, the Jew, the Waaqist are not denied eternal salvation because they are of these religions, rather some will not be denied eternal salvation because of or due to Jesus' salvific   work and even though they have not entered or know not and cannot know intimately of the Christian kingdom in this life?

They are no different than Christians who have not entered the Kingdom in this lifetime because the have not sufficiently lean spirit but yet Jesus will not judge them negatively for this in the end?  Is this correct?

<Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. >  So blessed are the poor in spirit...( even if your not a Christian) for theirs is the kingdom now or latter--- God is not a respecter of persons... etc...

Is this what your saying?... that Moses and John the Baptist will see the Kingdom in the next life, but some Christians will see it in this one?


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## welderguy (Jan 4, 2020)

1gr8bldr said:


> Do you think Jesus died for the sins of the world.... or redeemed us from the curse of sin? Not a trick question, just something I ponder



John 2:2 tells me Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.
And He redeemed us from the curse of the law.
Where no law is, there is no transgression.(Rom. 4)


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## gordon 2 (Jan 4, 2020)

welderguy said:


> John 2:2 tells me Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.
> And He redeemed us from the curse of the law.
> Where no law is, there is no transgression.(Rom. 4)




The curse of the law? From the curse of death I'd say...

It is said that the law points to sin and for it man is made religious to works. But for eternal life who does not see  sin sweat out of a man's life and must work mightily to not recoil from it and perhaps work to find faith in the laws of the kingdom itself? For even to the kingdom one can transgress, fall back, sin, dispare, and disregard as to what is possible-- loose hope.


Who in our kingdom has not paused on this?

29Let no unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building up the one in need and bringing grace to those who listen. 30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, outcry and slander, along with every form of malice.…


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## welderguy (Jan 4, 2020)

gordon 2 said:


> The curse of the law? From the curse of death I'd say...
> 
> It is said that the law points to sin and for it man is made religious to works. But for eternal life who does not see  sin sweat out of a man's life and must work mightily to not recoil from it and perhaps work to find faith in the laws of the kingdom itself? For even to the kingdom one can transgress, fall back, sin, dispare, and disregard as to what is possible-- loose hope.
> 
> ...



Romans 4 says "curse of the law".


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## welderguy (Jan 4, 2020)

gordon 2 said:


> Finally it is out.   So just to check. This is what jumps at me.>>>>  The Buddhist, the Shinto, the Hindu, the Jew, the Waaqist are not denied eternal salvation because they are of these religions, rather some will not be denied eternal salvation because of or due to Jesus' salvific   work and even though they have not entered or know not and cannot know intimately of the Christian kingdom in this life?
> 
> They are no different than Christians who have not entered the Kingdom in this lifetime because the have not sufficiently lean spirit but yet Jesus will not judge them negatively for this in the end?  Is this correct?
> 
> ...



Anyone ,who has not been made alive spiritually,  is willfully ignorant. "But such were some of you".
They cannot come except they be drawn.

But here's this:
"Father forgive them, for they know not what they do".


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## gordon 2 (Jan 4, 2020)

welderguy said:


> Anyone ,who has not been made alive spiritually,  is willfully ignorant. "But such were some of you".
> They cannot come except they be drawn.
> 
> But here's this:
> "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do".




I don't know to use scripture as you do. ( Somehow speaking in scripturize is so foreign to me. But I try. >>>>"But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.")

So can you say in plain english, Do none Chrisitians benefit from Jesus' salvific work in that some will inherit the kingdom in the world to come?


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## welderguy (Jan 4, 2020)

gordon 2 said:


> I don't know to use scripture as you do. ( Somehow speaking in scripturize is so foreign to me. But I try. >>>>"But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.")
> 
> So can you say in plain english, Do none Chrisitians benefit from Jesus' salvific work in that some will inherit the kingdom in the world to come?



If you mean "non-Christians"...
Yea
(thief on the cross)


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## gordon 2 (Jan 4, 2020)

welderguy said:


> If you mean "non-Christians"...
> Yea
> (thief on the cross)



Thank you. I understand this also.


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## Israel (Jan 5, 2020)

welderguy said:


> Anyone ,who has not been made alive spiritually,  is willfully ignorant. "But such were some of you".
> They cannot come except they be drawn.
> 
> But here's this:
> "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do".




Well ain't that a piece of work?!

Forgiveness is granted to...and upon the very grounds (to the thing needing it) that it doesn't know what it is doing!

I mean...I am an eavesdropper, I hear this conversation between two, or at least hear one speaking to another (Whom is definitely_ not me!_) about a "they".

Do I think my eavesdropping (am I being made privy to, or is it sneaky surveillance?) exempts me from the "they"? I mean (again) I hear this discourse! I got some info. The "they"...well they don't know what's going on, the "they" they don't know what they do. But now...my hearing of "what's going on", my hearing of a reference to the "they" that do not...where does that...put me?

The they are forgiven...on the sole basis that the "they" don't know what they do!

God knows (as only God knows) ooooh how He does! ....what the "they" has always meant to me! It's all I have ever striven against in identity! It's all I have EVER USED...(used is a good word!) The "they" are what I use...to establish myself! I am me...because I am not..."the them!"

(and God alone knows in what esteem I have ever held the "they"...dare I lie about it?)


Uh, oh! Now I am in a fix! What shines brighter to me? If I acquiesce to identity as the they (O! Lord, c'mon! do I have to?)  I find forgiveness is granted on that basis (O, Lord, c'mon...that identity too?) of being the "not knowing" what they (which has now become at least an "I"...and possibly  "we")...do!

Me? Are you calling me the "not knowing"? (But that's to whom forgiveness is granted!) Can a compromise be cut? Is it? Can it be softened somehow to me...for me?

Can I say "yes, I was once the "not knowing"...BUT NOW!

C'mon, I can live with that! I'll admit to some ignorance. Some "once" ignorance...as long as I can now be counted among the knowing! And the knowing of what I do, what I am doing, to boot! (Obviously...even the "christians" are still some of that "they" to me , cause it's sure apparent..."they do not" [know what they are doing!] )


Hey...I'll "forgive them!" (Anyone vomitting yet?)

Hey hey hey! Don't let go of that barf bag yet!

Cause...now that I count myself as "knowing what I do"...(and forgiveness is given to what "does not!)...I'll never need mercy...or be in the position of needing it (what _needs mercy_ except a transgressor?) again!

(How many Ha ha's may I insert?) When will you stop reading?

Hey, there's no law that says anyone (o! I have tried to forge one!) must know my footsteps as their own.

I'm only writing, can only write in faith...that the "hidden reader" understands.

Guess what! I found out...quickly...(maybe not as quick as others)....I still came to a place where I needed mercy...again...(or is it still?).

Then I had to "watch" another conversation. Or actually...a few. One went like this
(when I found that place again [still?] of needing mercy!)

"Um, yeah...Lord...uh...ow, ouch (wow this place hurts more than I thought! or remembered) yeah...that was definitely wrong, I see that now... I uh...well...I...uh...shoulda known better...forgive me"

Shoulda known better! "I" shoulda known better!

(I told you not to let go of that barf bag!)

I am the guy who always knows better...but somehow...gets tricked into a mistake! hey Lord! forgiveable right? We're cool right...? For me it's just a misstep, for me it's just a pebble I didn't see that caused a stumbling...hey...no big deal. Right?


Right....? I mean I still get to be "the guy who knows...now" Right?

(Thanks be to God for those of you who are laughing...but also thanks be to God for those of you wiping the bit of puke from your chins!)

And no less, thanks be to God for those of you who see only a self indulgent wretch, filling pages with tripe.

Let's forget about steps...and especially mine...they're no use to anyone.

But eventually another conversation had to be "watched".

(Guess the speaker here!)

"If you are the one who now knows better, and all your plea is based upon your thinking you (of all!)...should have known better...do you see where that leaves you relative to that "other conversation" you heard? "Forgive them Father, they know not what they do"? You have exempted yourself, in your thinking you can now occupy the place of the One who "knows better"(and also believes he has any plea in "I shoulda" [known better] ) ...you really have no idea what you are saying (and what I hear) when you talk to me...do you? Do you?"

and...

"Since you seem to love choosing so much...so that you can be so easily influenced to choose how you like to see yourself...here's one...what do you choose to see?

mercy


or 


see yourself thinking you now know better, and even know what you do?


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## gordon 2 (Jan 5, 2020)

Israel said:


> Well ain't that a piece of work?!
> 
> Forgiveness is granted to...and upon the very grounds (to the thing needing it) that it doesn't know what it is doing!
> 
> ...




Yes for many reasons we don't feel all well for some cuds we seem  a need to chew. Or some acidity is formed on some days that other days would not come up.

Did Jonah chew the cud? How about Peter's on Paul's missions to the gentiles?---- The Jewish Christians,  the Gentile Christians, the Christians of Asia: they and all the nations of the world, they are related to me how, in what ways?

Did Jesus visit Abraham? And if he did could Abraham know it was his savoir... especially say Jesus' visit was with two others and Jesus did not declare himself? Does Jesus minister to them that walk in Charity or in faith whom have received no known sign to them that it is "the savior"? Has the Father ministered one seed, one promise, one intervention that is of Jesus to our fathers. The King of Salem why was he?

I have often seen the foolishness of missionaries who cared not to know the true them they were called to minister to. And I have seen the wisdom in them that do.

The perils of poverty are not the perils of wealth. The perils of being misunderstood are real and so are they for misunderstanding. We grown to understand ourselves and others--- on perfectly good days.

Life if fractal with depth,I fear not holding onto a mere leaf sometimes and my only glory is that by grace I can swim and so depth are not foreign to me or to be feared( and I don't have to go there if I chose) nor the bifurcations in what floats on top or sinks to bottom are they worry. "They" are all in bible-ease if human branches and humans with depth and  least  then they are as Him.

The mysteries are deep and we live with and in "them" and "they" in "us". And so the Lord is my Shepard... and not all of "them" are wolves that are not to the gate yet. My word is them, us, ours, yours, they... My worry is not that I might associate them to God, but that I might associate them to being  sub human. Such is my cross to the man I injured not but for evil and ignorance injures me.


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## Israel (Jan 5, 2020)

gordon 2 said:


> Yes for many reasons we don't feel all well for some cuds we seem  a need to chew. Or some acidity is formed on some days that other days would not come up.
> 
> Did Jonah chew the cud? How about Peter's on Paul's missions to the gentiles?---- The Jewish Christians,  the Gentile Christians, the Christians of Asia: they and all the nations of the world, they are related to me how, in what ways?
> 
> ...


Ahhh, lovely...



> "Life is fractal with depth"!



Yes! Yes!


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## gordon 2 (Jan 5, 2020)

Israel said:


> Ahhh, lovely...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes! Yes!


Lovely perhaps, but my intention was not aesthetics. I simply wished and hoped to communicate.


****Oh, and perhaps in the spirit of nursing humor... puke is nothing and if it is, the chances are the nurse is management or headed there. 


Now today is the day of the Lord. Let us poultice our boils and praise the Lord.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 5, 2020)

Some Christians believe that since God blinded Israel to let Salvation go to the Gentiles(Romans 11), that God will eventually save all of Israel.

I guess I can see what they are talking about. If God blinded certain people, to allow salvation to all, why would he not give those people salvation as well?

As mentioned aren't the Hindu and all people who have never heard the gospel blinded? Even if one is a Hindu and hears the gospel he is still blinded by his indoctrination. It would take the Holy Spirit to awaken him.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 5, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> Some Christians believe that since God blinded Israel to let Salvation go to the Gentiles(Romans 11), that God will eventually save all of Israel.
> 
> I guess I can see what they are talking about. If God blinded certain people, to allow salvation to all, why would he not give those people salvation as well?
> 
> As mentioned aren't the Hindu and all people who have never heard the gospel blinded? Even if one is a Hindu and hears the gospel he is still blinded by his indoctrination. It would take the Holy Spirit to awaken him.



I don't want to bifurcate the tread, but Art it is not uncommon I think that "foreigners" to Christianity don't have problems with some identification with Jesus, what perhaps they have issue with is Christians--- especially those who talk from both sides of their mouths.

Take Paul for example. He could declare his thanks to God for the Gentile believers and churches and he would try to quell conflicts everywhere, but he could also give a just rebuke to the Jew and Gentile!

I don't think he was an "I'll talk from this side of the mouth today" for such and such gain today and "the other side" for another gain tomorrow.  When foreigners to Christianity today look at Christian nations and individuals they must be a bit puzzled by Christianity as we are too, but few would not see good in our Lord.

The reformers for example looked at the orthodox Christians and the worlds they had created and said the same thing "foreigners" are saying...about our faith and so on....


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## welderguy (Jan 6, 2020)

Some do not enter the kingdom, and they would have others to not enter also, if they could stop them. 

Matt.23
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

But I'm glad for this:
 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 6, 2020)

welderguy said:


> Some do not enter the kingdom, and they would have others to not enter also, if they could stop them.
> 
> Matt.23
> 13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
> ...


Do you think a lot of the verses pertaining to salvation pertain to the Kingdom? If everyone receives salvation from eternal death, then I guess some of those salvation verses must be about not entering the Kingdom. It does seem like some are about a physical salvation and then some are about a spiritual salvation.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 6, 2020)

welderguy said:


> Some do not enter the kingdom, and they would have others to not enter also, if they could stop them.
> 
> Matt.23
> 13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
> ...




"Cometh to me". Do you think that "Cometh to me" is a one time deal or is it ongoing? And by ongoing I mean him that "keeps" coming to Jesus, never mind what happens in life,  I will not cast out. ???

Can you make a case for a one time and  done deal ( ie: I believed so I'm good.) or for I purposely  keep on the branch, the branch on the tree, the tree in the promises, the promises in the will of God.???


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## welderguy (Jan 6, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> Do you think a lot of the verses pertaining to salvation pertain to the Kingdom? If everyone receives salvation from eternal death, then I guess some of those salvation verses must be about not entering the Kingdom. It does seem like some are about a physical salvation and then some are about a spiritual salvation.



Yes I do. I've been saying that over and over.


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## welderguy (Jan 6, 2020)

gordon 2 said:


> "Cometh to me". Do you think that "Cometh to me" is a one time deal or is it ongoing? And by ongoing I mean him that "keeps" coming to Jesus, never mind what happens in life,  I will not cast out. ???
> 
> Can you make a case for a one time and  done deal ( ie: I believed so I'm good.) or for I purposely  keep on the branch, the branch on the tree, the tree in the promises, the promises in the will of God.???



It's a continual daily thing. (take up your cross daily and follow me).
Peter spoke of some who needed to be "stirred up".
Paul encouraged the Phillipians  to "press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."
James said to "draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you".


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## welderguy (Jan 21, 2020)

Is it possible for someone, who was in Christ, to be separated and burned in the fire?


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## Israel (Jan 22, 2020)

welderguy said:


> Is it possible for someone, who was in Christ, to be separated and burned in the fire?



That's the rub in the relationship isn't it? Maybe in all and every relationship by which God, illuminating His relationship with us through Christ, would have us come to see what is our nature in all relationship?

Is it really 2 commandments?

When asked what is the greatest commandment Jesus responded:

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thine whole heart...

and (as Jesus said the second is "like it")

Love your neighbor as yourself...

We might infer the fellow asking is "what is the ONE thing?"

Yet, Jesus gives him two...but are they? And, no, I do not believe Jesus is being tricky, but more wanting us to see that there, there really is no separation. Sometimes we may admit, we don't really know what we are asking in our asking.

Jesus has linked these two things and made an unbreakable relationship _in them_ by saying the second is "like it".

Is it difficult for us, as we call ourselves believers to think..."yes, of course they are linked...if one is "doing the first" the second will follow"...but might we not ask, "if one is _doing_ the "second" is that even possible...apart from the doing of the first?" What man could love his neighbor "as himself"...apart from being full of the love of God?" 

So it matters little how one comes at it...

If "it" has gills, swims in the water and has scales and bones it is a fish. If it is a fish, it has gills, swims in the water...etc.

This is a matter of identity. A thing being a thing. 

So if your question is "Can what is of Christ be then made to not be of Christ?" it is one question. And I believe that_ identity thing _holds an answer.

But if (and this is the big "if") the question is heard by the all knowing to be "is it possible for what believes to itself it is of Christ...discover it is not of Christ?" Then, that is quite another question.

You may think I am trying to be clever, but there might be found great comfort in God's relentless work in us to show us "what we are of". Some disciples were once told "you know not what spirit you are of" when wanting to call down fire. Yet, Jesus did not explain, did he?

He did not say "you are of the Spirit of God...and you are not acting in accord with "it", in not knowing how to act in desire according to that spirit."
Nor did he say "You are acting in accord with the spirit of the world...and you shouldn't do that, you still need to be changed."
After all, would any deny those disciples were "already His"? James and John?


We infer, generally what we infer, and I am quire sure each of us has some view, one way or the other. 

But that does not change _what Jesus did say_ "you do not know what spirit you are of". Period.

If a disciple can be either...or both...(were James and John disciples?) not yet "born of the spirit"...or "not acting in accord with _that spirit"_ is important to us. For we learn, if we do watch the progress and process of those we call faithful, that God will work with "His own" to a perfecting and alignment (think Paul's rebuke of Peter)...none of "His own" are abandoned to their own errors in either partial sight or practice.
(Is it any wonder then that_ zealousness_ is so linked to repentance? "Be zealous therefore and repent" the Lord commands.)

But likewise we should be sobered by "depart from me, I never knew you..." said to what has by _its own inferences_ (prophesies, miracles) determined its belonging to Christ. Yes...sobering. There seems little doubt that such are sincerely, in themselves, in belief of their ownership and relationship.

Oh, yes...now we begin to appreciate "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling". We might submit that the very matter which is of all consequence to us to our "knowing"..."What am I of?" is rightly and entirely out of our own discerning...it can only be established to us by the One who knows all. 

And, just as salvation itself is wisely removed from our participation in_ the seeming necessity of our own approval, so is all. _We do not  "make Jesus Lord". We did not raise Him. We did not, do not, "give Him" all authority in Heaven and Earth. We may even (if God allows)...come to see some of the perfection in matter of its all reason in God...yet it is not because of "our" reason...it is so. Oh what rebuke to the man who sets out in any effort to believe it accrues to his account...to show just how much "he approves" of Christ. Yes...God knows all our source of motive! Who can hide? What I appraise "my own" sincerity must also be accounted as dross...even a useless thing.

Oh, but this sounds too severe! Shall I trust in "my confession?"...Lord, Lord? Uh, oh. 
What I have seen? 
Even what I may think has come in result to "my faith"? uh, oh. 
"My" prayers? What if I were shown..."oh, yes...you prayed for such and such and such...but I was answering the prayers of another saint on your behalf."



Is there not one indicator? 
As all these things are despoiled before my eyes...any and all "sadness" associated comes as only _that_ one glaring attachment...pride. I thought I knew...what I didn't...and I thought what wasn't there...was. 

Is God wise? Is God wise in Christ? Is God's way...in Christ?

And the second is like unto it.

And you shall love your neighbor as yourself!

Oh, on my own, in my "head" I so easily imagine I love God with my whole ...etc...

But, Oh! How I have tripped...in vain competition, in unrighteous judgments, in harsh and caustic, clever words (so much for the "things" I confess!) how I have been party to my own form of sectarianism...preferring this one over that one...seeking to (to my mind) encourage this one...while cleverly deriding "that one"...Oh Lord...so much so it now appears I have been all in the wrong in any assumption of salvation..."Lord, save me today, January 22, 2020." I may never have known you!

Interesting right...how that those particular cautions and encouragements come relative to our view of what we call "others". Paul warned of perils and being "broken off" if found boasting against the natural branches...like it's now "our ball, 1st and 10 on the 40 yard line" to show ourselves "better" at keeping "our" covenant.

Likewise the apostle John is plain about the peculiarly hidden (till seen) way of knowing how we have passed from "death to life".

There are indicators...a place where comfort is given of assurance...because it is the place (as it was and is our Lord's of greatest suffering and need...even when to all, in all, (even to ourselves) we may appear "cut off")...this laying down our lives for one another...

"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me..." to all that may appear enemy. I don't see you, I don't feel you, I don't sense anything about this as "right".

"At my first answer no man stood with me, but all _men_ forsook me: _I pray God_ that it may not be laid to their charge." Said Paul.

That seeming isolation, that seeming thing we seek all our lives to resolves, escape, deny, cover, do all in our power to do...whether by whatever means...to not be "alone"_ in death..._to "do" a thing that provokes answer of approval...so that we may know we are not...to _force answer_...


All to be led into...to see answer is already made.


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## hummerpoo (Jan 22, 2020)

Israel said:


> That's the rub in the relationship isn't it? Maybe in all and every relationship by which God, illuminating His relationship with us through Christ, would have us come to see what is our nature in all relationship?
> 
> Is it really 2 commandments?
> 
> ...



Sometimes "like" just isn't enough.


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## welderguy (Jan 22, 2020)

Israel said:


> That's the rub in the relationship isn't it? Maybe in all and every relationship by which God, illuminating His relationship with us through Christ, would have us come to see what is our nature in all relationship?
> 
> Is it really 2 commandments?
> 
> ...



I too, as Hummer,  "like" all of this.

But, I'm just not sure you fully understood what I was asking. Basically, it was a yes or no question regarding the work of the Husbandman in John 15.

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.


Can we agree that "every branch IN ME is what is being considered?
And can we also agree that some of these branches,(although they were IN HIM ), were cut off and cast into a fire....by men no less?


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 22, 2020)

welderguy said:


> I too, as Hummer,  "like" all of this.
> 
> But, I'm just not sure you fully understood what I was asking. Basically, it was a yes or no question regarding the work of the Husbandman in John 15.
> 
> ...



So basically you are saying, if one isn't producing fruit, then he no longer has God abiding as proof? 
My question would be, if they are cast and burned, are they eternally burning or will they be destroyed like the vines?


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## welderguy (Jan 22, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> So basically you are saying, if one isn't producing fruit, then he no longer has God abiding as proof?
> My question would be, if they are cast and burned, are they eternally burning or will they be destroyed like the vines?



I'm emphasizing the point that they are already "in Him". But they are being told to abide (remain in a resting position. ref.Strongs) in Him, and thus bear fruit. If they do not abide and bear fruit, they are cut off and thrown into a fire. ( by men, indicating in this present life) ...not eternally.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 22, 2020)

welderguy said:


> I'm emphasizing the point that they are already "in Him". But they are being told to abide (remain in a resting position. ref.Strongs) in Him, and thus bear fruit. If they do not abide and bear fruit, they are cut off and thrown into a fire. ( by men, indicating in this present life) ...not eternally.


Can one have God and not Jesus? They are already "in Him" yet if they aren't bearing fruit, they are not of Christ? So they will die physically but not eternally? I mean if one isn't bearing fruit and are thrown in a fire, isn't that some type of death? Do you see that as just man being separated from the Kingdom now?


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## welderguy (Jan 22, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> Can one have God and not Jesus? They are already "in Him" yet if they aren't bearing fruit, they are not of Christ? So they will die physically but not eternally? I mean if one isn't bearing fruit and are thrown in a fire, isn't that some type of death? Do you see that as just man being separated from the Kingdom now?



Not really following your line of thinking on any of this.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 22, 2020)

welderguy said:


> Not really following your line of thinking on any of this.


Yeah, I probably misread what you were saying. I'm trying to picture the "all" as it pertains to eternity vs the "few" as it pertains to the Kingdom. 
So all have eternal life but only the few have entry to the Kingdom. The few are the one's producing fruit. If one of the "few" quits, he's thrown into the fire which only means he isn't "in" the Kingdom any longer. 

Do you have any other passages where you think losing salvation means kicked out of the Kingdom and not related to eternal life?


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 22, 2020)

It could explain that all the verses against OSAS, are really just showing that an individual is just being kicked out of the Kingdom.


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## welderguy (Jan 23, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> It could explain that all the verses against OSAS, are really just showing that an individual is just being kicked out of the Kingdom.



I would not refer to it as "being kicked out of the kingdom" as you put it. It's more of a "coming up short" as Paul put it, or "missing the mark". 
But even when we do come up short, there's room for repentance and forgiveness and putting those things behind us, and pressing toward the mark. It's not about not failing, it's about overcoming.


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## hobbs27 (Jan 23, 2020)

In Adam= in old Covenant.

In Christ= in new Covenant.

It just pertains to All entered into covenant, not all people.


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## welderguy (Jan 24, 2020)

hobbs27 said:


> In Adam= in old Covenant.
> 
> In Christ= in new Covenant.
> 
> It just pertains to All entered into covenant, not all people.



But every individual person is "in Adam".
We were all born under that covenant.
" For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."


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## gordon 2 (Jan 24, 2020)

hobbs27 said:


> In Adam= in old Covenant.
> 
> In Christ= in new Covenant.
> 
> It just pertains to All entered into covenant, not all people.




Just goes to show that all does not mean all all the time.


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## Israel (Jan 24, 2020)

gordon 2 said:


> Just goes to show that all does not mean all all the time.



I sometimes wish there was a "laugh" button.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 24, 2020)

welderguy said:


> But every individual person is "in Adam".
> We were all born under that covenant.
> " For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."




Yes all humans die because of Adam's sin as per Genesis Account, but "in Christ" there is an significant element of reversal of the Genesis death for man.

When Adam sinned according to Genesis the result was his days were numbered and Adam was distanced from God. And so all humans it is said will face last judgement where they will return intimate and not distanced from God.

When God removed Adam's sin ( through Christ) from man, according to Christians Adam's( the Christian's) distance from God was removed and now Adam's days ( for those that are in Christ) are numbered in reverse. Christians are as good as judged.

Now the living and the dead wait... The living ( those in Christ) claim that intimacy with God is assurance of a return to glorified bodies at the last judgement as per the original Adam's and the dead ( those spiritually not in Christ) hope that at the judgement they also will become intimate with God again and returned to glorified bodies and reward.


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## hobbs27 (Jan 27, 2020)

welderguy said:


> But every individual person is "in Adam".
> We were all born under that covenant.
> " For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."



I disagree. Did Adam die in the day he took of the fruit as God said he would....or did he surely not die in the day as the serpeant said?

If you agree with scripture there was a death in the day he took of it. And that death reigned from Adam to Moses in absence of Moses law.. (there was a law before Moses else sacrifice would not have been known.)

There was a death that Paul died daily to, because of his genealogy. Being a Jew.

You need to define this non physical death .

God Bless.


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## welderguy (Jan 27, 2020)

hobbs27 said:


> I disagree. Did Adam die in the day he took of the fruit as God said he would....or did he surely not die in the day as the serpeant said?
> 
> If you agree with scripture there was a death in the day he took of it. And that death reigned from Adam to Moses in absence of Moses law.. (there was a law before Moses else sacrifice would not have been known.)
> 
> ...



The death I speak of affects every man that sins. And this is the same death that God warned Adam of. And as I said, all are/were under the curse of this death, until they are/were made alive again by God through Christ. 
This death:

 "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."


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## hobbs27 (Jan 28, 2020)

welderguy said:


> The death I speak of affects every man that sins. And this is the same death that God warned Adam of. And as I said, all are/were under the curse of this death, until they are/were made alive again by God through Christ.
> This death:
> 
> "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
> Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."



If that is the only death you define, then are you not agreeing with the serpeant over God?
 In the day you eat you shall surely die.


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## welderguy (Jan 28, 2020)

hobbs27 said:


> If that is the only death you define, then are you not agreeing with the serpeant over God?
> In the day you eat you shall surely die.



I am not agreeing with the serpent. He said they would not die, but in fact they did die.


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## hobbs27 (Jan 28, 2020)

welderguy said:


> I am not agreeing with the serpent. He said they would not die, but in fact they did die.



And they died that day as God said?


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## welderguy (Jan 28, 2020)

hobbs27 said:


> And they died that day as God said?



Yes they did. James tells how, as I pointed out earlier.


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## hobbs27 (Jan 28, 2020)

welderguy said:


> Yes they did. James tells how, as I pointed out earlier.



Yes..when sin is full grown it brings about death. "Separation from God". This cannot be about physical death, or no wicked person would ever grow old as we know many do.

Look at what James is explaining leading up to this. The process of sin in four stages.
Desire.
Deception.
Disobedience.
Death.

Consequently the same stages of sin in n the garden.

Desire  Gen. 2:17
Deception Gen. 2:17
Disobedience taking of the fruit
Death  The casting out of the garden and presence of God " in that day".

But James speaks of an alternative. Believe and Trust in God . If one has faith they are In Christ and have life eternal. If they seek out their own desires and not believe and trust in the Lord, they will die to their own lusts and not fall under God's protection. Basically they are not a child of God, and have no place with Him.


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## welderguy (Jan 30, 2020)

hobbs27 said:


> Yes..when sin is full grown it brings about death. "Separation from God". This cannot be about physical death, or no wicked person would ever grow old as we know many do.
> 
> Look at what James is explaining leading up to this. The process of sin in four stages.
> Desire.
> ...



I don't agree with that last statement. 
As Paul said "I die daily", as it was a constant struggle against sin on a daily basis. He got so overwhelmed with it he also cried "who can deliver me from this body of death?!?" 

These things are real for even the child of God, and they are a daily occurrence. Make no mistake, we have the victory over this death, but the application of it is not yet fully realized.

The last enemy to be defeated is death. He must reign until all things are put under His feet.


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## hobbs27 (Jan 30, 2020)

welderguy said:


> I don't agree with that last statement.
> As Paul said "I die daily", as it was a constant struggle against sin on a daily basis. He got so overwhelmed with it he also cried "who can deliver me from this body of death?!?"
> 
> These things are real for even the child of God, and they are a daily occurrence. Make no mistake, we have the victory over this death, but the application of it is not yet fully realized.
> ...



Death is defeated, now. The law is past, but as Paul was writing the old Covenant was made void, and was ready to vanish..it hadn't yet though. Romans 7 is speaking of Paul's struggle, being a Jew of the Pharisee sect. Living under the carnal law of his forefathers that increased sin, and having the workings of the spiritual law within.

The body of death he needed to be delivered from was the old Covenant church body. Not his own physical body. Only Christ would do that when He came back to vindicate the Martyrs.

In Matthew 23 Jesus told the priests and scribes that He was going to send them prophets, and they would kill them. When the full measure of their sin was upon them. He told them the entire blood shed of all the prophets would be upon them...and surely their generation would not pass till all those things were fulfilled.

Here we see the same event Jesus is warning them of foresaw by John. It was about to happen when John wrote..just a little season.
Revelation 6.
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 30, 2020)

hobbs27 said:


> Death is defeated, now. The law is past, but as Paul was writing the old Covenant was made void, and was ready to vanish..it hadn't yet though. Romans 7 is speaking of Paul's struggle, being a Jew of the Pharisee sect. Living under the carnal law of his forefathers that increased sin, and having the workings of the spiritual law within.
> 
> The body of death he needed to be delivered from was the old Covenant church body. Not his own physical body. Only Christ would do that when He came back to vindicate the Martyrs.
> 
> ...


If death is defeated, can I die daily like Paul did?


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 30, 2020)

hobbs27 said:


> Death is defeated, now. The law is past, but as Paul was writing the old Covenant was made void, and was ready to vanish..it hadn't yet though. Romans 7 is speaking of Paul's struggle, being a Jew of the Pharisee sect. Living under the carnal law of his forefathers that increased sin, and having the workings of the spiritual law within.
> 
> The body of death he needed to be delivered from was the old Covenant church body. Not his own physical body. Only Christ would do that when He came back to vindicate the Martyrs.
> 
> ...


The 1 Corinthians 15 passage is about all dying in Adam and all in Christ being made alive. It's really about the resurrection. If this is a past event, and death has been destroyed, then how can a Christian  still die daily if death has already been destroyed?
It seems like if death has already been destroyed, sin would be impossible to perform.


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## hobbs27 (Jan 30, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> If death is defeated, can I die daily like Paul did?


No..Paul was still bound by the law into which he was born into. He was waiting to be delivered from that. As Hebrews 8:13 shows the old Covenant had been made void and was about to vanish in that day.

It was that old Covenant system that still had holds on him that he died daily. The workings of the new Covenant, eternal life was in him too, but he desperately needed to be delivered from that old Covenant body of sin and death.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 30, 2020)

hobbs27 said:


> No..Paul was still bound by the law into which he was born into. He was waiting to be delivered from that. As Hebrews 8:13 shows the old Covenant had been made void and was about to vanish in that day.
> 
> It was that old Covenant system that still had holds on him that he died daily. The workings of the new Covenant, eternal life was in him too, but he desperately needed to be delivered from that old Covenant body of sin and death.


 
"The last enemy to be destroyed is death."

If death has been destroyed, can we still sin? It just seems to me that if "all" sinned in Adam, and "all" were made alive in Christ, and if death has been destroyed as told in 1 Corinthians 15, then how can we still sin?


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## hobbs27 (Jan 30, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> "The last enemy to be destroyed is death."
> 
> If death has been destroyed, can we still sin? It just seems to me that if "all" sinned in Adam, and "all" were made alive in Christ, and if death has been destroyed as told in 1 Corinthians 15, then how can we still sin?



 In this better Covenant do we not have a mediator between us and the Father?
Of course Christians sin. The difference is the charge of sin is not imputed on us, and we have a Savior.


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