# Why Doesn't God Demonstrate He's Real?



## GunnSmokeer (Jan 10, 2014)

Why doesn't God demonstrate his power to all people, at least once in their lifetimes?  Once every 50 years, maybe?

And I don't mean giving a "vision" to a "prophet." Anybody can claim to have had a message from God. 

Why doesn't God provide some proof that there is a God, and that God is all-powerful?  

God has put on demonstrations before.  Jesus is said to have done a bunch of real miracles. Not lame half-baked sort-of miracles, but big powerful things that simply cannot be explained any other way. Water into wine. Walking on Water.  Raising the "dead" once could be luck, if the person wasn't really dead.  Raising the dead several times and curing well-known cripples and blind people several times-- those are miracles too.

Elijah got God to demonstrate His power just for the sake of showing the people that He is God, and Baal was not.  God, on cue and in full view of a crowd, burned up an offering and even the stones of the altar, too.

Remember that thing about "if you had faith as small as a mustard seed, you could say to a mountain, 'move from there to there!' and the mountain would relocate itself" ?  Well THAT's what I'd like to see.  

Have God announce that he's going to move Mt. Whitney from its current location in California to the middle of a farm field in Kansas.  And then do it.  And leave it there for 100 years for people to marvel at, and know His power.

Then move it back.

Why not? 

Why would God demonstrate His power and authority 3000 years ago, and 2000  years ago, but not since then?


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## hobbs27 (Jan 10, 2014)

I disagree with the premise.


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## JB0704 (Jan 10, 2014)

GunnSmokeer said:


> Why doesn't God demonstrate his power to all people, at least once in their lifetimes?  Once every 50 years, maybe?



You assume that he doesn't.  I think life is a pretty miraculous thing, and I see it every day.


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## formula1 (Jan 10, 2014)

*Re:*

A life transformed by the Power of Christ is far more amazing than a mountain moved!  In the words of Jeff Foxworthy, 'I are one'! God Bless!


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## 1gr8bldr (Jan 10, 2014)

formula1 said:


> A life transformed by the Power of Christ is far more amazing than a mountain moved!  In the words of Jeff Foxworthy, 'I are one'! God Bless!


That's a great quote, is that yours or borrowed?


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## HawgJawl (Jan 10, 2014)

formula1 said:


> A life transformed by the Power of Christ is far more amazing than a mountain moved!



A life transformed by the counseling of a psychiatrist is a miraculous example of what?


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## LEON MANLEY (Jan 10, 2014)

We have global warming, what other proof is needed?
Oh  wait, that was Al Gore.


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## HawgJawl (Jan 10, 2014)

GunnSmokeer said:


> God has put on demonstrations before.  Jesus is said to have done a bunch of real miracles. Not lame half-baked sort-of miracles, but big powerful things that simply cannot be explained any other way. Water into wine. Walking on Water.  Raising the "dead" once could be luck, if the person wasn't really dead.  Raising the dead several times and curing well-known cripples and blind people several times-- those are miracles too.
> 
> Elijah got God to demonstrate His power just for the sake of showing the people that He is God, and Baal was not.  God, on cue and in full view of a crowd, burned up an offering and even the stones of the altar, too.
> 
> Remember that thing about "if you had faith as small as a mustard seed, you could say to a mountain, 'move from there to there!' and the mountain would relocate itself" ?  Well THAT's what I'd like to see.



One theory I have proposed in the past on this forum is that God is ready and willing to move a mountain for any truly righteous person with enough faith.  The problem is that there are none.  

The uncomfortable question is this:

If you do not have enough faith to perform the miracles promised by Jesus to those who truly believe and have faith, what makes you think you have enough belief and faith to get into heaven?

I include myself in this huge group of people who do not possess the required amount of faith.


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## formula1 (Jan 10, 2014)

*Re:*



1gr8bldr said:


> That's a great quote, is that yours or borrowed?



It came from my spirit, but please give credit to God!


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## bullethead (Jan 10, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> You assume that he doesn't.  I think life is a pretty miraculous thing, and I see it every day.



Without assumptions these forums would not exist.


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## formula1 (Jan 10, 2014)

*Re:*



HawgJawl said:


> A life transformed by the counseling of a psychiatrist is a miraculous example of what?



There are no changed lives without God involved! Period!


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## HawgJawl (Jan 10, 2014)

formula1 said:


> There are no changed lives without God involved! Period!



Does that include lives changed for the worse, such as becoming a serial killer, or only lives changed for the better?


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## formula1 (Jan 10, 2014)

*Re:*



HawgJawl said:


> Does that include lives changed for the worse, such as becoming a serial killer, or only lives changed for the better?



I'm sure you can figure that answer out for yourself!

What is the greater wisdom? Seeking God or questioning Him? And how do you know?


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## NCHillbilly (Jan 10, 2014)

I don't know about anybody else, but if a 20,000 foot-tall deity came stepping over mountains throwing lightning bolts with tornadoes circling around his head and issuing commands in a thunderous voice, I'd more than likely be in church this Sunday instead of fishing, and there would be no atheist forum on here anymore.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 10, 2014)

Personally, I've had all the proof I need.  Maybe I've even seen God.  Who knows.  Maybe it really was His hand and arms that I've felt so many times in my life.

I've stood at the base of the cross.  I've slept in the garden.
Move a mountain?  I've seen things even more impressive..... he moved an old, angry army first Sergeant.

What else could I hope to see.  But I've seen more.  Most have.


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## 04ctd (Jan 10, 2014)

GunnSmokeer said:


> Elijah got God to demonstrate His power just for the sake of showing the people that He is God, and Baal was not.  God, on cue and in full view of a crowd, burned up an offering and even the stones of the altar, too.



my brother, i know what & why you are asking...because your soul thirsts for a _True & Living God to show that He is_.

your error in your thought process is that you did not finish the REST of the story.  Even though Elijah prayed down fire and did many miracles,  however, in the end , like any sorry ole useless sinner, he ran & hid when chased by a prostitute:

(Ronnie, there's a sermon hidden in there...)

1 Kings 19            Elijah Escapes from Jezebel
_
19 And Ahab told Jezebel all that Elijah had done, also how he had executed all the prophets with the sword. 2 Then Jezebel sent a messenger to Elijah, saying, “So let the gods do to me, and more also, if I do not make your life as the life of one of them by tomorrow about this time.” 3 And when he saw that, he arose and ran for his life, and went to Beersheba, which belongs to Judah, and left his servant there.

4 But he himself went a day’s journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a broom tree. And he prayed that he might die, and said, “It is enough! Now, Lord, take my life, for I am no better than my fathers!”

5 Then as he lay and slept under a broom tree, suddenly an angel touched him, and said to him, “Arise and eat.” 6 Then he looked, and there by his head was a cake baked on coals, and a jar of water. So he ate and drank, and lay down again. 7 And the angel of the Lord came back the second time, and touched him, and said, “Arise and eat, because the journey is too great for you.” 8 So he arose, and ate and drank; and he went in the strength of that food forty days and forty nights as far as Horeb, the mountain of God.

9 And there he went into a cave, and spent the night in that place; and behold, the word of the Lord came to him, and He said to him, “What are you doing here, Elijah?”_




Ronnie T said:


> Personally, I've had all the proof I need.  Maybe I've even seen God.  Who knows.  Maybe it really was His hand and arms that I've felt so many times in my life.
> 
> I've stood at the base of the cross.  I've slept in the garden.
> Move a mountain?  I've seen things even more impressive..... he moved an old, angry army first Sergeant.
> ...



Ronnies correct, even if he is ex-Army....this is why...we live by Faith alone...not by sight.

Habakkuk 2:4 
“Behold the proud, His soul is not upright in him; But the just shall live by his faith.

Galatians 2:20 
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh _I live by faith in the Son of God,_ who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Ephesians 2:8-9
 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. 

in other words, we come with a HEART knowledge...not a HEAD knowledge.

we can't reason our way into Heaven..we have to LOVE our way into Heaven.






NCHillbilly said:


> I don't know about anybody else, but if a 20,000 foot-tall deity came stepping over mountains throwing lightning bolts with tornadoes circling around his head and issuing commands in a thunderous voice, I'd more than likely be in church this Sunday instead of fishing, and there would be no atheist forum on here anymore.



if a church is RIGHT with GOD, and the Pastor is RIGHT WITH GOD, and the people's hearts are RIGHT WITH GOD, He will do just that.  

Our last Pastor was in the Word, On time, On Target, saturated in Corporate Prayer, and People were healed & cancer could NOT be found, health was restored.  Great miracles were worked in many small & mighty ways!  But you had to be still & listen.

and that made people WANT to come to church, instead of going fishing.  

miracles still occur...check the prayer list at your church & see how many are healed, but never return.

Luke 17:17 
Jesus asked, “Were not all ten cleansed? Where are the other nine?


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## howardsrock (Jan 10, 2014)

I was born into the church and baptized as a baby.  Somewhere in my teens, I turned from God.  I questioned him.  Why aren’t you showing me your power?  I didn’t just turn, I ran away.  Living the next 23-25 years, I indulged in nearly every sin imaginable.  

Over the course of my life I have had a dear friend who, like me, had made an art form out of sin.  About ten years ago my friend began his new life in his walk with Christ.  I continued down my path.

Almost 3 years ago, my wife and I had our first child, a daughter.  A year later, my friend and I were on one of our annual hunting trips.  One night we had a lengthy discussion about his faith in Christ.  He went to his room to sleep.  I had other plans.  Yes, I was going to sin again.  As I sat there contemplating my next sinful move, I jokingly said softly, “Lord, if you are really there why can’t I talk with you like my friend does?  How do I stop doing what I know to be harmful and wrong?”  I sat there in silence, planning my sin.  Within minutes I heard a loud voice saying, “I am with you.  I have always been with you.  You have chosen not to listen.  To avoid this sinful situation, think about your daughter.”  I began to shake as tears flowed down my face.  Truth is sometimes the most painful thing to accept.  From that moment on I have renewed my walk with Christ.  The lord talks to me daily.  (Admittedly not with the booming voice that I heard that night).  He proves to me daily his existence.  I now choose to listen.  

Was that a massive miracle that could change the minds of thousands and equal those miracles like raising the dead?  I don’t know.  However, it was a miracle for me.  It has raised me from the dead.

Last year my father began a year long struggle that ultimately led to his death in September.  My father was a devout Christian.  Over that year I visited him frequently.  We talked about life, death, faith.  We read scripture, prayed, laughed and cried.  I cannot begin to tell you the number of stories that were small miracles that he and I shared over that last year.  However, I can tell you that none of those miracles we shared would have been possible without my first turning to Christ after that first miracle that occurred one night 2 years ago in a cabin new the Sparkleberry swamp in South Carolina.  If you want to see the miracles of God, start looking and listening.  In Matthew 6:26 Christ shows us the plainness of some of God’s miracles that we see every day and choose not to see, “Look at the birds. They don’t plant or harvest or store food in barns, for your heavenly Father feeds them.”  God’s miracles are all around us.  We just have to choose to acknowledge them.


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## oldfella1962 (Jan 10, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> You assume that he doesn't.  I think life is a pretty miraculous thing, and I see it every day.



True, but the little constant miracles don't fill seats/bring the drama to the story. The miracles all around us can be interpreted and spun depending on our personalities and culture.

When God/Jesus did those old school epic miracles (parting seas and whatnot) nothing was open to interpretation or attributed to coincidence or natural causes. The hayday of epic miracles has passed long ago.


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## redmauler (Jan 10, 2014)

They will seek signs. FAITH,FAITH,FAITH


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## Ronnie T (Jan 10, 2014)

Thanks Howardsrock.
.


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## StriperAddict (Jan 10, 2014)

Ronnie T said:


> Personally, I've had all the proof I need. Maybe I've even seen God. Who knows. Maybe it really was His hand and arms that I've felt so many times in my life.
> 
> I've stood at the base of the cross. I've slept in the garden.
> Move a mountain? I've seen things even more impressive..... he moved an old, angry army first Sergeant.
> ...


Amen, well said... I agree His touch is like none other... 



howardsrock said:


> I was born into the church and baptized as a baby. Somewhere in my teens, I turned from God. I questioned him. Why aren’t you showing me your power? I didn’t just turn, I ran away. Living the next 23-25 years, I indulged in nearly every sin imaginable.
> 
> Over the course of my life I have had a dear friend who, like me, had made an art form out of sin. About ten years ago my friend began his new life in his walk with Christ. I continued down my path.
> 
> ...


 
Beautiful testimony, thank you!


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## Israel (Jan 10, 2014)

GunnSmokeer said:


> Why doesn't God demonstrate his power to all people, at least once in their lifetimes?  Once every 50 years, maybe?
> 
> And I don't mean giving a "vision" to a "prophet." Anybody can claim to have had a message from God.
> 
> ...


A man may learn from his own mistakes.
He may become a man wise enough to learn from others.
He might even learn that were mountains moved continuously, even serendipitously, he could still take the God of all creation for granted.
A man watched Jesus raise Lazarus from the dead...and instead of instantly falling at his feet for mercy...went and reported to the pharisees. Seems allegiances have an ability to blind one to what is taking place...even before one's very eyes.
Jesus told of a man who would not be converted, even if one returned from the dead. That man already had the testimony of the righteousness of God through Moses and the prophets...which, if he did not receive, no miracle would convince. 
If unaffected by the conviction that righteousness is true, regardless of all our experiences in a world seemingly bereft of it that would entice us into its allegiance...we have abandoned our own souls against what should be plainly seen, but is _already_ refused.
Righteousness alone is the "proof"...even if and when we may be righteously brought to acknowledge...it is...but it is surely not "of me".
That man may begin a journey of faith...to seek what is not seen, but known, to find what is not apprehendable, but given.
Don't so despise your own being as to spend it frivolously at your own expense.
Invest wisely.
If you can concede that _you are_, let that concession work toward the conceding that another does.
Or...why bother to seek to communicate...at all?
Why...indeed...


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## GunnSmokeer (Jan 10, 2014)

*wow.*

Wow, I am deeply NOT impressed with the responses here.
It all boils down to "just have faith and don't ask questions."

Miracles all around me?  What a lame excuse for an answer !!!   Jesus didn't say that you have faith, you will get energy and stamina to put up with misfortune (one type of miracle, right??)

Jesus didn't say that if you have faith, something good will happen to you the same way good things happen to millions of people who DON'T have faith, and some of which are not even good people but truly evil.

Jesus said with the right amount of faith, you can move mountains.
You can walk on water.

THAT would be a miracle.

You can point out that your daughter drew a pretty picture of a tree in her coloring book and call that  "miracle" if you want, but that's not what I mean, nor is it the type of miraculous power that Jesus spoke of, and demonstrated in his time on earth.

Some of you have personally heard from God?  He spoke to you?  Umm... okay.  The trouble with that is, it convinces nobody but you. And very few people have ever had such a godly experience. Many haven't, and most of the world is populated by non Christians anyway.  

Sure, it "would" be possible and effective for God to speak to each of us and tell us he's real and he's powerful, but it's not happening in any significant numbers and never has.

At least in the past, God would put on real demonstrations. In public. For all to see. Believers and skeptics. Jews and Gentiles and Pagans and Athiests. Miracles that convinced those witnesses the Truth behind what they saw. Miracles that were witnessed by dozens of people at the same time, each able to retell the story firsthand.

God whispering in your ear is not every convincing evidence, well, for reasons that should be obvious and in no need of further explanation.


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## Israel (Jan 10, 2014)

GunnSmokeer said:


> Wow, I am deeply NOT impressed with the responses here.
> It all boils down to "just have faith and don't ask questions."
> 
> Miracles all around me?  What a lame excuse for an answer !!!   Jesus didn't say that you have faith, you will get energy and stamina to put up with misfortune (one type of miracle, right??)
> ...



If you are not pleased with the way God already "operates"...I can tell you assuredly...anything other would be less...than to your good.
But if you need to persuade him...he let Hezekiah live...and bring forth a Manasseh, Abraham have an Ishmael...
God knows what lessons may be gleaned in your discontent, and even necessary.
Were men created to "impress you", then indeed...we may all have fallen short...God knows...but...your conversation here, our (all) conversations here...are all bringing forth a fruit...already.
Impressed, or not.


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## GunnSmokeer (Jan 10, 2014)

*Okay.*

I'll be quiet.

If the Royal Dispatcher says the Emperor will ride through this village in his finest suit, who am I to question authority?

When we all see the Emperor, I will not dwell on my fault of not seeing his clothes, for of course he has got to have clothes, the finest clothes of all the kingdom has he.

The true believers can see his clothes.  And even those that do not will wish and hope and pray themselves into such a mental state that they (truthfully or falsely) will claim to see the Emperor's fancy clothes.

Those that don't see any clothes will just go along with the crowd.  

You'd have to be an innocent child or a blooming idiot to point to him and say "the Emperor has no clothes!"


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## kmh1031 (Jan 10, 2014)

*Modern Day Miracles*

Various kinds of miracles are mentioned in the Bible. (Exodus 7:19-21; 1 Kings 17:1-7; 18:22-38; 2 Kings 5:1-14; Matthew 8:24-27; Luke 17:11-19; John 2:1-11; 9:1-7) Many of these miracles served to identify Jesus as the Messiah, and they proved that he had God’s backing. 
Jesus’ early followers displayed miraculous gifts, such as speaking in tongues and discernment of inspired utterances. (Acts 2:5-12; 1 Corinthians 12:28-31) Such miraculous gifts were useful for the Christian congregation during its infancy. How so?
  Well, copies of the Scriptures were few. Usually, only the rich possessed scrolls or books of any sort. In pagan lands, there was no knowledge of the Bible or of its Author. Christian teaching had to be conveyed by word of mouth. The miraculous gifts were useful in showing that God was using the Christian congregation.

  But the Apostle Paul explained that these gifts would pass away once they were no longer needed. “Whether there are gifts of prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with. For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with.”—1 Corinthians 13:8-10.
  Today, people have access to Bibles, as well as concordances and encyclopedias. 
 Thus, miracles are no longer necessary to attest to Jesus Christ as God’s appointed Deliverer or to provide proof that God is backing his servants today.


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## JB0704 (Jan 10, 2014)

GunnSmokeer said:


> "just have faith and don't ask questions."



Who said don't ask questions?



GunnSmokeer said:


> Jesus said with the right amount of faith, you can move mountains.
> You can walk on water.



Which you demand evidence of in order to prove   Please tell me that you see the irony in that.



GunnSmokeer said:


> You can point out that your daughter drew a pretty picture of a tree in her coloring book and call that  "miracle" if you want, but that's not what I mean, nor is it the type of miraculous power that Jesus spoke of, and demonstrated in his time on earth.



If ever given the opportunity, you should let him know that the things you see are not sufficient evidence.  Maybe he'll work with you on that.

I would suggest you try to create life first yourself before you declare it mundane.


But let's face it, you knew where you were going with this before you posted the OP.


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## Goodoleboy01 (Jan 10, 2014)

I used to ask the same question GunnSmokeer, like if I saw the Red Sea split, if I followed a pillar of fire at night and a cloud by day, if I woke up every morning with fresh manna that was good for only one meal.
I would be convinced!  I wouldn't be that dumb like they were,
Then it dawned on me one day, I, you, and everyone else would have done the same thing they did, following our sin nature till we die. 
Jesus asks us to die to ourselves and serve others, not an easy task to take on, but no less worthy a task it is.
He said " look at these little children, the kingdom of heaven is like these.
It seems as we mature in age we forget how sweet we once were to one another.
Good luck to you on your journey to God.


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## GunnSmokeer (Jan 10, 2014)

*Huh?*

First of all, I think a lot more people would TRULY BELIEVE in God and his power and his path to salvation if there were a public demonstration of power that could not be explained as anything other than an intentional act of God calling our attention to Him.

Too many people in the world today don't believe, or don't take it seriously.  A lot more would take it seriously having witnessed God's hand personally or through more recent accounts and news reports than the Bible (which, according to Christians, hasn't been updated in 2000 years.  The Jews think it's more like 3000 years, but the Muslims say 1300 years and the Mormons said it was updated less than 200 years ago.  Watching a famous mountain disappear, replaced by a perfectly flat table-top base, and then learning that mountain has appeared on the other side of the earth in some flat desert... THAT would convince a lot of folks.


Secondly, it should be pretty obvious that while all people will sin, and thus all people are in need of grace to get salvation because it can't be earned:

1-- more people will seek grace in earnest when convinced of the Truth of their maker and the grand plan for humanity.

2-- even sinners who can't help themselves from sinning may do less harmful sins, less often, and thus society would be better off.  God may not rank sins and say some are worse than others, but SOCIETY certainly would benefit if there were less sinning overall and a reduction on the most harmful, offensive sins (murder, for example).

P.S.  If God turned more criminals into pillars of salt, like Lot's wife.... or punished the wicked with instant death, like Aninias and Sapphira (though I wouldn't call them wicked... just dishonest)....  or Korah and the others who opposed Moses in Numbers 16....  THEN more people would believe that God is paying attention to what happens down here, and it's not a matter of luck (or some unknown and unknowable divine plan).


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## Ronnie T (Jan 10, 2014)

GunnSmokeer,

The key issue in this subject you've delved into is "Faith".

By God's design, we live in the age of faith.  Previously, the people of Israel live with a total understanding of God's physical manifestation of His power upon this world.  The more they actually saw of God, the more they turned from Him.

Today, God resides within us rather than in the mountain that moves.

As to the answers to all your questions, you'll have to ask God one day.  Peace.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 10, 2014)

GunnSmokeer said:


> Why doesn't God demonstrate his power to all people, at least once in their lifetimes?  Once every 50 years, maybe?



He demonstrates it in my life and countless others every day.  When I was in the Marines I had a friend that had never seen the stars at night until he joined the Corps because he was born and raised in New York City.  The light pollution obscures the stars.  It took a change in his environment to see something that has always been there.  A believer will see miracles far more often because he puts himself in a position to see them and expects to see them.
Someone who denies the supernatural will never see a miracle for what it is.  They most often find some way of rationalizing it away.  Pharaoh witnessed many supernatural acts of God, but in each instance would talk himself out of believing what he had witnessed.  People today are no different.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 10, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> A life transformed by the counseling of a psychiatrist is a miraculous example of what?



Are they mutually exclusive?


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 10, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> Does that include lives changed for the worse, such as becoming a serial killer, or only lives changed for the better?



Based on your understanding of Christ's teaching, what is your answer to this?


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 10, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> He demonstrates it in my life and countless others every day.  When I was in the Marines I had a friend that had never seen the stars at night until he joined the Corps because he was born and raised in New York City.  The light pollution obscures the stars.  It took a change in his environment to see something that has always been there.  A believer will see miracles far more often because he puts himself in a position to see them and expects to see them.
> Someone who denies the supernatural will never see a miracle for what it is.  They most often find some way of rationalizing it away.  Pharaoh witnessed many supernatural acts of God, but in each instance would talk himself out of believing what he had witnessed.  People today are no different.



I understand and agree with supernatural occurrences being from God but I don't know if Pharaoh is a good example as God had hardened his heart to the point where he didn't have a choice.
Controlling one's destiny  would  demonstrate God is real.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 11, 2014)

GunnSmokeer said:


> You'd have to be an innocent child or a blooming idiot to point to him and say "the Emperor has no clothes!"



How can you discuss the attire, or lack thereof, of the Emperor if you don't believe an Emperor exists......an Emperor that a significant (1/3) of your fellow citizens do in fact see.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 11, 2014)

Btw I highly recommend this book.  In fact it may be the best book I have read with regards to where we are culturally and spiritually today in America.  You make recognize the cover.


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## Israel (Jan 11, 2014)

GunnSmokeer said:


> I'll be quiet.
> 
> If the Royal Dispatcher says the Emperor will ride through this village in his finest suit, who am I to question authority?
> 
> ...



Do you think saying "I'll be quiet" is the same as being quiet? (Which no one has even implied you should...but straw men are always easier to dwell among when we discover others also speak)
You are not questioning "authority". None of us here has any over you.
Several testimonies of God's miraculous workings in lives have been shared. You, it appears, eschew these, and also seem to imply such are either the mumblings of the wretched afraid to speak the truth against an unclothed authority, or simply the self delusion of the foolish. Who it seems(to me)...may or may not be (to you) operating out of craven fear.
Correct my appraisal if it be wrong.
How you "take" things is your business.
What you speak, however, puts you in a very different arena. You discover everyone has ammo, and is armed.

There's a great gulf between: 
"I don't see what you say you see"
And:
"What you say you see is not real, because I do not see it at all..." making the "other" a liar, or fool.

By all of men's devices Mt. Whitney remains precisely where they expect, where they have decided it _must be_ according to whatever standard they have established in their own submission to their own authority. 
But, even then...some have seen, if I am to believe their testimony, that it is rapidly changing its position, at about 1,300 MPH.
Heisenberg may have had it right.
Some it appears, are willing to submit they know nothing about how to fix things in their own sight with any certainty.
They have learned to leave it to the one who is always moving.
So that they, may be quiet.


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## JB0704 (Jan 11, 2014)

Israel said:


> Do you think saying "I'll be quiet" is the same as being quiet? (Which no one has even implied you should...but straw men are always easier to dwell among when we discover others also speak)
> You are not questioning "authority". None of us here has any over you.
> Several testimonies of God's miraculous workings in lives have been shared. You, it appears, eschew these, and also seem to imply such are either the mumblings of the wretched afraid to speak the truth against an unclothed authority, or simply the self delusion of the foolish. Who it seems(to me)...may or may not be (to you) operating out of craven fear.
> Correct my appraisal if it be wrong.
> ...



Great post, Israel.  I highlighted the parts where you said what I was trying to say much better than I could.


----------



## holler tree (Jan 11, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> You assume that he doesn't.  I think life is a pretty miraculous thing, and I see it every day.



EXACTLY what I was thinking. How could anyone take a good look around and ask a question like that.


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## GunnSmokeer (Jan 11, 2014)

*Hmmm...*

Hmmm......  


so when I ask "where are the big miracles" 
your answer is 
"all around us, you just can't see them."

I ask about miracles clearly attributed to God or God working through a prophet or holy man....


.... and you give me pretty flowers and snowflakes and the moon and the stars and babies.

Are any of your "miracles" in any way connected to faith?
Go back to my original post-- if you have faith, you can work miracles.  If you believe, you can heal the sick. You can cast out demons (though some are so powerful that only Jesus could cast them out, not any disciples). If you believe and order a mountain to move, it will move.

Your "miracles" are common to every person, every culture, every group of people since the Earth was formed.  Pagans and athiests and voodoo priests and Satanists all enjoy the power to create life by boinking members of the opposite gender without using birth control.  Dumb animals do it. The birds and the bees.  

Show me a miracle connected to faith and God acting to or through a specific individual. Anytime in the last 2000 years.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Jan 11, 2014)

One good rain of blood and rattlesnakes from the sky accompanied by furious earthquakes and a loud, angry, commanding voice issuing from the sky, earth, and mountainsides quite likely would do more to convert the heathen masses than 10,000,000,000 small invisible miracles of faith that appear only to the already-converted.


----------



## HawgJawl (Jan 11, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> A life transformed by the counseling of a psychiatrist is a miraculous example of what?





SemperFiDawg said:


> Are they mutually exclusive?





HawgJawl said:


> Does that include lives changed for the worse, such as becoming a serial killer, or only lives changed for the better?





SemperFiDawg said:


> Based on your understanding of Christ's teaching, what is your answer to this?



The logic behind these two principles are mutually exclusive.  I don't want to derail this thread, so I'd enjoy discussing this more in the "What could it hurt" thread if you wish.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jan 11, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> The logic behind these two principles are mutually exclusive.  I don't want to derail this thread, so I'd enjoy discussing this more in the "What could it hurt" thread if you wish.



Sure.  I'll follow your lead.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Jan 11, 2014)

"Jesus’ early followers displayed miraculous gifts, such as speaking in tongues and discernment of inspired utterances. (Acts 2:5-12; 1 Corinthians 12:28-31) Such miraculous gifts were useful for the Christian congregation during its infancy. How so?
Well, copies of the Scriptures were few. Usually, only the rich possessed scrolls or books of any sort. In pagan lands, there was no knowledge of the Bible or of its Author. Christian teaching had to be conveyed by word of mouth. The miraculous gifts were useful in showing that God was using the Christian congregation."

This makes zero sense, but I could be reading it wrong. In the pagan lands nobody knew about The Bible, and info about Christianity was relayed by word of mouth. I'm with you so far, but then:
a demonstration of God using the congregation was "speaking in tongues" which is the EXACT OPPOSITE of conveying a clear message understood by all. 
Also modern linguists have analyized many recorded samples of speaking in tongues in churches today, and there is no pattern or logic behind it whatsoever. It's complete abstract gibberish that can be interpreted any way by different people, like an ink blot test.


----------



## centerpin fan (Jan 11, 2014)

oldfella1962 said:


> Also modern linguists have analyized many recorded samples of speaking in tongues in churches today, and there is no pattern or logic behind it whatsoever. It's complete abstract gibberish that can be interpreted any way by different people, like an ink blot test.



So, maybe what is being practiced today _is_ just jibberish and nothing like what we see in the NT.


----------



## centerpin fan (Jan 11, 2014)

GunnSmokeer said:


> Show me a miracle connected to faith and God acting to or through a specific individual. Anytime in the last 2000 years.



You might have better luck on a Catholic site.  Evidence of a miracle is required for sainthood.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 11, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> So, maybe what is being practiced today _is_ just jibberish and nothing like what we see in the NT.



I am going to have to agree with this statement, but for entirely different reasons, I do not think there is much of anything practiced today that could be anything like what we see in the NT.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jan 11, 2014)

oldfella1962 said:


> "Jesus’ early followers displayed miraculous gifts, such as speaking in tongues and discernment of inspired utterances. (Acts 2:5-12; 1 Corinthians 12:28-31) Such miraculous gifts were useful for the Christian congregation during its infancy. How so?
> Well, copies of the Scriptures were few. Usually, only the rich possessed scrolls or books of any sort. In pagan lands, there was no knowledge of the Bible or of its Author. Christian teaching had to be conveyed by word of mouth. The miraculous gifts were useful in showing that God was using the Christian congregation."
> 
> This makes zero sense, but I could be reading it wrong. In the pagan lands nobody knew about The Bible, and info about Christianity was relayed by word of mouth. I'm with you so far, but then:
> ...



Miracles come in many forms, but one overriding characteristic they all share is that they all point to the sovereignty of God over creation.  If the didn't they would be miracles, but just natural  phenomena.  Jesus said as much to Phillip when he told him that if he didn't believe in his words, believe in the miracles he had witnessed.  In other words the miracles were a testament that Christ was exactly who he said he was....God incarnate.

You used the example of speaking in tongues.  This phrase means different things to different people.  In one sense it denotes someone instantly speaking a foreign yet known language to an audience or congregation who understands it.  For instance you instantly being able to speak Chinese to a Chinese audience.  An example of this would be Acts 2

“2 When the day of Pentecost had arrived, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like that of a violent rushing wind came from heaven, and it filled the whole house where they were staying. 3 And tongues, like flames of fire that were divided, appeared to them and rested on each one of them. 4 Then they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in different languages, as the Spirit gave them ability for speech.
5 There were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6 When this sound occurred, a crowd came together and was confused because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7 And they were astounded and amazed, saying, “Look, aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 How is it that each of us can hear in our own native language? 9 Parthians, Medes, Elamites; those who live in Mesopotamia, in Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs — we hear them speaking the magnificent acts of God[…]”

Clearly a supernatural event instantly evident to all present......a miracle if you will.

In another context speaking in tongues denotes speach which is not known to the speaker nor the hearer.  It's an utterance of the spirit to God and God only.  It also has scriptural support in 1 Corinthians 13:1 in which Paul clearly recognizes its existance.

“If I speak human or angelic languages
but do not have love,
I am a sounding gong or a clanging cymbal.”


I think you example regarding the linguistical study probably was based on the latter context.


At one point in my life I was highly skeptical of this latter context also.  It is poorly understood by even most professing Christians and as a result has been both highly abused by those who would profit from it and ridiculed by those who misunderstood it, but witnessed how it was being used to manipulate others.  After much reading, prayer, study, and observation my views have changed.  
I now not only believe it exists, but see how it, as any other supernatural event/miracle, is another evidence of God's sovereignty, grace and love for us.  If you are interested in the WHY of my change of heart I would be glad to share, but won't trouble you any more if not.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jan 11, 2014)

bullethead said:


> I am going to have to agree with this statement, but for entirely different reasons, I do not think there is much of anything practiced today that could be anything like what we see in the NT.



On the surface I would tend to agree with you.  Christians have certainly given the brand a black eye  through much of history.  That being said it continues to flourish today.  Why?  Because it's the millions of little things things that don't make the news instead of the few that do.  It's the local mission work of the few dedicated people in each church, not the pew warmers.  It's the soup kitchens and clothes closets in the inner city manned by church volunteers.  It's the helping of a tenant out with rent, medical bills, light bills etc.  Its the message of hope preached from a pulpit on Sunday mornings to those with addictions, the abused, the neglected and forgotten.  That's the things you don't see, but are the most important.  There's an ocean of this going on all around us every day, but if you're not involved in it you don't see it.  Most outside who do see it either dismiss it or don't take note of it.

Oh and as far as miracles go, it's like fishing or hunting, they're there a plenty, you just got to know where to look to find them.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 11, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> On the surface I would tend to agree with you.  Christians have certainly given the brand a black eye  through much of history.  That being said it continues to flourish today.  Why?  Because it's the millions of little things things that don't make the news instead of the few that do.  It's the local mission work of the few dedicated people in each church, not the pew warmers.  It's the soup kitchens and clothes closets in the inner city manned by church volunteers.  It's the helping of a tenant out with rent, medical bills, light bills etc.  Its the message of hope preached from a pulpit on Sunday mornings to those with addictions, the abused, the neglected and forgotten.  That's the things you don't see, but are the most important.  There's an ocean of this going on all around us every day, but if you're not involved in it you don't see it.  Most outside who do see it either dismiss it or don't take note of it.
> 
> Oh and as far as miracles go, it's like fishing or hunting, they're there a plenty, you just got to know where to look to find them.



Not sure Christians have the market cornered on those little things. 


I'd tend to believe the rarity is what makes them miraculous. So Rare that just a few stand out in such a small area of the world and for over 2000 years never to be repeated. You will have us believe miracles are common.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jan 11, 2014)

bullethead said:


> Not sure Christians have the market cornered on those little things.
> 
> 
> I'd tend to believe the rarity is what makes them miraculous. So Rare that just a few stand out in such a small area of the world and for over 2000 years never to be repeated. You will have us believe miracles are common.



I disagree.  A black panther in Georgia is a rarity, but certainly not a miracle.  Wiki defines miracle simple enough for me: 

"A miracle is an event not ascribable to human power or the laws of nature and consequently attributed to a supernatural, especially divine, agency". I think SUPERNATURAL is the key concept...something that occurs outside of normal conceptual order.

They are much more common today than most realize.


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## panfried0419 (Jan 11, 2014)

Ready my sig line


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## bullethead (Jan 11, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I disagree.  A black panther in Georgia is a rarity, but certainly not a miracle.  Wiki defines miracle simple enough for me:
> 
> "A miracle is an event not ascribable to human power or the laws of nature and consequently attributed to a supernatural, especially divine, agency". I think SUPERNATURAL is the key concept...something that occurs outside of normal conceptual order.
> 
> They are much more common today than most realize.



Can you give every day examples that are supernatural and then narrow them down to what is responsible? Like which God and why that God would be the only one capable of such a miracle and why another God would not?

Just to narrow the God down to one, I have a hard time with the differences between Jewish miracles,Islamic miracles and Christian miracles. They are all seemingly produced by the same God of Abraham in order to benefit each of the religions and their believers that worship Him but sometimes while benefiting one it hurts the others. Why would that be? Are their miracles equally miraculous or are they fibbing?


----------



## bullethead (Jan 11, 2014)

panfried0419 said:


> Ready my sig line



I don't doubt you believe that.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 12, 2014)

bullethead said:


> Can you give every day examples that are supernatural and then narrow them down to what is responsible? Like which God and why that God would be the only one capable of such a miracle and why another God would not?
> 
> Just to narrow the God down to one, I have a hard time with the differences between Jewish miracles,Islamic miracles and Christian miracles. They are all seemingly produced by the same God of Abraham in order to benefit each of the religions and their believers that worship Him but sometimes while benefiting one it hurts the others. Why would that be? Are their miracles equally miraculous or are they fibbing?



Dang Bullet!  You been hanging out with Art.   You asked about seventeen-eleven questions right there in one post.

First of all, technically all three of the big three monotheistic religions acknowledge the same God of Abraham, albeit they each have very different views of him.  So there's that.  But, in reality there is only one God.

There's been numerous examples given on this forum recently of miracles by individual posters.  I've probably seen 3 or 4 just today.  No one is going to convince you that miracles exist if you are convinced they don't.  Each and every one can be dismissed on one pretext or another.

Pharaoh witnessed what most anyone today would consider supernatural wonders or miracles.  He witnessed  Aaron's rod being turned into a serpent, the Nile being turned to blood, a plague of frogs, lice, flies, and then a pestilence of the cattle, plague of boils, hail mixed with fire, boils, locust, three days of pitch black darkness and then the death of all the first born.  Still he found a pretext to dismiss each, talking himself out of believing what he himself had witnessed.  Even standing there on the bank witnessing the parting of the sea, he talked himself into dismissing what was happening in front of his very eyes.  That's a pretty staggering list of miracles for one person to witness, yet if he could deny them then so can anyone else and no amount of miracles no matter how grand will convince someone who doesn't want to believe to believe.  

Don't know if you ever been mullet or sheepshead fishing, but they don't bite.  You have to believe they are there biting and hook them "before they bite."  If you wait for a bite it will never come.  Same way with miracles.  You are never going to see one put in the boat unless you can have enough faith to believe they are there and they are biting.  If you don't all you will do is dismiss every "bite" as just the current moving your line.  It's very subtle, but faith makes all the difference in the world.  It's the difference between success and failure.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 12, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Dang Bullet!  You been hanging out with Art.   You asked about seventeen-eleven questions right there in one post.
> 
> First of all, technically all three of the big three monotheistic religions acknowledge the same God of Abraham, albeit they each have very different views of him.  So there's that.  But, in reality there is only one God.


You are telling me what I already stated above. 
I asked why does that same God perform miracles for the followers of those religions in which the miracles sometimes negatively effect the other followers that worship the same God? IE: Why does God grant a miracle for the Muslims that negatively effects the Christians...or whatever combination of the three you want to use...?



SemperFiDawg said:


> There's been numerous examples given on this forum recently of miracles by individual posters.  I've probably seen 3 or 4 just today.  No one is going to convince you that miracles exist if you are convinced they don't.  Each and every one can be dismissed on one pretext or another.


If they are that easily dismissed in one pretext or another then they do not fit the definition of miracles.



SemperFiDawg said:


> Pharaoh witnessed what most anyone today would consider supernatural wonders or miracles.  He witnessed  Aaron's rod being turned into a serpent, the Nile being turned to blood, a plague of frogs, lice, flies, and then a pestilence of the cattle, plague of boils, hail mixed with fire, boils, locust, three days of pitch black darkness and then the death of all the first born.  Still he found a pretext to dismiss each, talking himself out of believing what he himself had witnessed.  Even standing there on the bank witnessing the parting of the sea, he talked himself into dismissing what was happening in front of his very eyes.  That's a pretty staggering list of miracles for one person to witness, yet if he could deny them then so can anyone else and no amount of miracles no matter how grand will convince someone who doesn't want to believe to believe.


There was a miracle there and that miracle is how all those events escaped recorded history except for the pages of the Bible. Outside of the Bible those events did not happen, they did not take place. Please do not use the Miracle on 34th St...or it's Remake as your next example.



SemperFiDawg said:


> Don't know if you ever been mullet or sheepshead fishing, but they don't bite.  You have to believe they are there biting and hook them "before they bite."  If you wait for a bite it will never come.  Same way with miracles.  You are never going to see one put in the boat unless you can have enough faith to believe they are there and they are biting.  If you don't all you will do is dismiss every "bite" as just the current moving your line.  It's very subtle, but faith makes all the difference in the world.  It's the difference between success and failure.



I, like the un-catchable sheepshead, am not biting on your explanations and analogies. Skill and technique make the seemingly impossible un-miraculous.


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## hobbs27 (Jan 12, 2014)

Looks like some questions could be answered in this upcoming movie.


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## bullethead (Jan 12, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Looks like some questions could be answered in this upcoming movie.



http://www.patheos.com/blogs/camels...he-atheist-philosophy-professor-strikes-back/

Not to mention some very unfavorable videos on Youtube that critique the trailer/premise of the movie.


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## Nerf Warrior (Jan 12, 2014)

I think that the key word here is 'faith'.  As far as moving mountains with faith as small as a mustard seed, who actually has that much faith.  The Israelites were privy to miracles on a daily basis but yet their faith wavered when they came to the Red Sea.  People diagnosed with cancer voice their faith but yet depression sets in because of the statistics of survivability.  Remember Casey Anthony?  I saw an interview with her grandmother who kept saying that she is a christian woman and she had prayed to God and she had faith that her granddaughter was ok and would be found alive.  In the very next sentence she said " but if something bad has happened then I pray that justice will be done".  That second statement kind of negated her statement of her faith.  Faith is praying and believing.  Not praying and hoping or seeing if it will happen or just in case.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 12, 2014)

Nerf Warrior said:


> I think that the key word here is 'faith'.  As far as moving mountains with faith as small as a mustard seed, who actually has that much faith.  The Israelites were privy to miracles on a daily basis but yet their faith wavered when they came to the Red Sea.  People diagnosed with cancer voice their faith but yet depression sets in because of the statistics of survivability.  Remember Casey Anthony?  I saw an interview with her grandmother who kept saying that she is a christian woman and she had prayed to God and she had faith that her granddaughter was ok and would be found alive.  In the very next sentence she said " but if something bad has happened then I pray that justice will be done".  That second statement kind of negated her statement of her faith.  Faith is praying and believing.  Not praying and hoping or seeing if it will happen or just in case.



Well said


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 12, 2014)

bullethead said:


> You are telling me what I already stated above.
> I asked why does that same God perform miracles for the followers of those religions in which the miracles sometimes negatively effect the other followers that worship the same God? IE: Why does God grant a miracle for the Muslims that negatively effects the Christians...or whatever combination of the three you want to use...?



I'm not certain he does.  If he does I am certainly not privy as to why?




bullethead said:


> If they are that easily dismissed in one pretext or another then they do not fit the definition of miracles.



I disagree and again point to Pharaoh and the plagues as one evidence that miracles can be dismissed by one who refuses to believed.




bullethead said:


> There was a miracle there and that miracle is how all those events escaped recorded history except for the pages of the Bible. Outside of the Bible those events did not happen, they did not take place. Please do not use the Miracle on 34th St...or it's Remake as your next example.



Never seen the movie.  I don't think that if it's true that the only evidence of the Exodus is the Bible, it can be dismissed as false.  That would seem a very strict criteria for dismissing a historic event as fallacy....because it's only documented in one document.  I don't think most reasonable people would accept that as the sole criteria for disproving the veracity of a documented event.




bullethead said:


> I, like the un-catchable sheepshead, am not biting on your explanations and analogies. Skill and technique make the seemingly impossible un-miraculous.



Never expected you to, but you missed the whole point.  It was that without faith the fish were there, one wouldn't fish for them in the first place.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 12, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I'm not certain he does.  If he does I am certainly not privy as to why?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


SFD there is no evidence of that ever happening. 






SemperFiDawg said:


> Never seen the movie.  I don't think that if it's true that the only evidence of the Exodus is the Bible, it can be dismissed as false.  That would seem a very strict criteria for dismissing a historic event as fallacy....because it's only documented in one document.  I don't think most reasonable people would accept that as the sole criteria for disproving the veracity of a documented event.


There have been Archeologists searching for any evidence of the Exodus for centuries and in recent times with advanced equipment. For a group of people that large wandering the desert for 40 years...not a trace of them ever doing it has been found. No camps, no tools, no waste, really nothing that would back up something of that magnitude. The sheer lack of evidence, the lack of any of it being recorded in Egyptian history and many of the claimed dates with named rulers do not match up.
Some good reading if you even care...
http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Judaism/2004/12/Did-The-Exodus-Really-Happen.aspx





SemperFiDawg said:


> Never expected you to, but you missed the whole point.  It was that without faith the fish were there, one wouldn't fish for them in the first place.



Lowrance would be my miracle.


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## 660griz (Jan 12, 2014)

The answers are certainly confusing, "I see miracles whenever I open my eyes." "Look at nature and life and you will see miracles." 
Definition of miracle posted: Defies laws of nature. 

Perhaps we should start over. Why doesn't God demonstrate he is real? Well, the honest answer is because he is not. 

"You notice how God's not around anymore? He spends all that time playing with Adam and Eve and the Israelites and smiting cities and things and has got bored over the last... recorded history or so. I wonder if he has new toys? And if so, are the old toys still going to be wanted when we show up to cash in the "life everafter" tokens."
-	Katie Lucas





SemperFiDawg said:


> But, in reality there is only one God.



And...one Santa Claus


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## Bob2010 (Jan 12, 2014)

A lot of reading here. Most of which is far beyond what I am capable of understanding.    I have a friend with 3 small kids under 7 years old, a great wife, and a successful business.  He lived in the fast lane. He said God if you want me than you better get me. Because unless you show me your real I will continue to do what I want to do. Diagnosed with stage 4 cancer within a week out of the blue. There is a booming voice for you! Fighting it now and things aren't looking good with his health and treatments. He believes a miracle is possible.  He also believes a miracles already happened. When he accepted salvation and heard Gods booming voice the war was done. The Miracle is his heart change brought peace and life even after death. He is a different husband, father, and spends time in scripture trying to bring others to live right now instead of waiting for God to prove himself. Ask him if he cares about a mountain moving. Or tell him his miracle that is happening as he is physically dying doesn't count because its not big enough or visible to others. If God has to move mountains today for us to believe than he should just remove our free will right. He doesn't want us to believe and love him because we have no choice.  He wants us to make a choice to believe and love him. He proved with miracles enough in those times. If he decided to move mountains today he would probably just be about angry enough to just remove our free will and force us to love him. Why do we think we know what God should do or act like we are supposed to understand why he doesn't do something.  Its like thinking I am capable understanding the trinity. We will never understand God completely.  He is 1 million steps ahead of any of us.


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## 660griz (Jan 13, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> A lot of reading here. Most of which is far beyond what I am capable of understanding.    I have a friend *with 3 small kids under 7 years old, a great wife*, and a successful business.



So, if your friend dies, who really suffers? Nice God ya got there.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 13, 2014)

660griz said:


> So, if your friend dies, who really suffers? Nice God ya got there.



Let's put the shoe on the other foot Griz. Your beliefs must address the problem also.  Death is not just a Christian problem.  

 What hope would your belief offer him?  What consolation would it offer the family?  Be honest.


----------



## WaltL1 (Jan 13, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> A lot of reading here. Most of which is far beyond what I am capable of understanding.    I have a friend with 3 small kids under 7 years old, a great wife, and a successful business.  He lived in the fast lane. He said God if you want me than you better get me. Because unless you show me your real I will continue to do what I want to do. Diagnosed with stage 4 cancer within a week out of the blue. There is a booming voice for you! Fighting it now and things aren't looking good with his health and treatments. He believes a miracle is possible.  He also believes a miracles already happened. When he accepted salvation and heard Gods booming voice the war was done. The Miracle is his heart change brought peace and life even after death. He is a different husband, father, and spends time in scripture trying to bring others to live right now instead of waiting for God to prove himself. Ask him if he cares about a mountain moving. Or tell him his miracle that is happening as he is physically dying doesn't count because its not big enough or visible to others. If God has to move mountains today for us to believe than he should just remove our free will right. He doesn't want us to believe and love him because we have no choice.  He wants us to make a choice to believe and love him. He proved with miracles enough in those times. If he decided to move mountains today he would probably just be about angry enough to just remove our free will and force us to love him. Why do we think we know what God should do or act like we are supposed to understand why he doesn't do something.  Its like thinking I am capable understanding the trinity. We will never understand God completely.  He is 1 million steps ahead of any of us.


So lets see -
Friend would be willing to follow God if he just shows he's real -


> He said God if you want me than you better get me. Because unless you show me your real I will continue to do what I want to do.


Instead -


> Diagnosed with stage 4 cancer within a week out of the blue.





> He doesn't want us to believe and love him because we have no choice.  He wants us to make a choice to believe and love him.


If this were true why the need for punishment? You guys love to go on about this whole choice thing while completely ignoring the penalty for not choosing right. That's not choice. That's fear.


> he would probably just be about angry enough to just remove our free will and force us to love him.


If you ask his kids I bet they would have preferred this over giving their dad cancer. I guess they didn't have a choice.


> Why do we think we know what God should do or act like we are supposed to understand why he doesn't do something.  Its like thinking I am capable understanding the trinity. We will never understand God completely.


Then how do you know this cancer was God's doing?

I feel bad for his kids that the way this God makes his point is to cause them pain and suffering that will affect them the rest of their lives.
Or you know, he just had cancer and happen to find out about it when he did.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jan 13, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> A lot of reading here. Most of which is far beyond what I am capable of understanding.    I have a friend with 3 small kids under 7 years old, a great wife, and a successful business.  He lived in the fast lane. He said God if you want me than you better get me. Because unless you show me your real I will continue to do what I want to do. Diagnosed with stage 4 cancer within a week out of the blue. There is a booming voice for you! Fighting it now and things aren't looking good with his health and treatments. He believes a miracle is possible.  He also believes a miracles already happened. When he accepted salvation and heard Gods booming voice the war was done. The Miracle is his heart change brought peace and life even after death. He is a different husband, father, and spends time in scripture trying to bring others to live right now instead of waiting for God to prove himself. Ask him if he cares about a mountain moving. Or tell him his miracle that is happening as he is physically dying doesn't count because its not big enough or visible to others. If God has to move mountains today for us to believe than he should just remove our free will right. He doesn't want us to believe and love him because we have no choice.  He wants us to make a choice to believe and love him. He proved with miracles enough in those times. If he decided to move mountains today he would probably just be about angry enough to just remove our free will and force us to love him. Why do we think we know what God should do or act like we are supposed to understand why he doesn't do something.  Its like thinking I am capable understanding the trinity. We will never understand God completely.  He is 1 million steps ahead of any of us.



Thanks for posting this.  It's a strong testimony, and you make some excellent points.  Your friend is already a living miracle.  How many others can say that outside of Christ?


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 13, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> So lets see -
> Friend would be willing to follow God if he just shows he's real -
> 
> Instead -
> ...




This is a great example of the contrast in views between those who believe life is finite and those who see it as eternal.  For the one who holds it is finite, death is a very scary concept.  For those who see life as eternal, it has much less of a sting as it's seen as only a transition into a better life.


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## Bob2010 (Jan 13, 2014)

660griz said:


> So, if your friend dies, who really suffers? Nice God ya got there.



2 things we can thank Adam and Eve for. Sin and Death as part of a fallen world. This concept that God does not deserve a healthy level of fear from us just does not fly with me. If there is no principles or word of God to live by than I create my own God, morals to live by, and can justify any behavior. From experience that is not a long term solution. kids and Wife will suffer most. I am not saying God struck my friend with Cancer. He certainly could have if he wanted to. The Holy Spirit certainly has used his cancer to reach others with Christ love. There are alot of people that swore they would never believe in Christ that have found salvation through this. So lets play out option A and B. Start with option A.His wife does not believe in God and Christ. Her comfort comes from things in this world. She focuses on money, pleasure, and her own wants and desires. She fears death because there is no heaven. No good comes of death but an end of suffering. She has no source of strength when her husband passes. My friend believes the same things. He is scared like a little kid when he passes. He has no legacy to leave for his kids but a pile of cash, a great golf game, and spent most of his time out seeking pleasure away from his kids. He dies uncertain of where he is going. Then there is the chance of - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -. You don't have to believe in - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - to wind up there for eternity. Or option B Where they believe in Christ and God. They have hope a miracle can happen.  But have more faith because they believe the miracle already happened in salvation. The Miracle is very obvious by who my friend is as a father, husband, and his desire to bring others to Christ. He knows life here is temporary and his real home is eternity in heaven with God. He dies with faith and peace. His kids have an amazing legacy to live by. My Grandfather passed a few months ago. Great man. Retired Navy. Taught me how to work. He was old but strong as they come mentally.  He believed Christ was real. Not sure he believed he was the son of God. We spoke with him but still are not sure he ever accepted salvation. Before he passed there was no peace or comfort. He was like a scared child that no one could calm. Taking option B man. When the Holy Spirit does put Christ in your heart you will know it. Humbling!


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## 660griz (Jan 13, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> What hope would your belief offer him?


 None. If all attempts to heal using the todays technology didn't work, you are going to die. Everyone is going to die, anyway. There is no hope for immortality. Deal with it like a man. 



> What consolation would it offer the family?  Be honest.



None. Folks die. I would hope they are taken care of financially.
I am always honest.


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## 660griz (Jan 13, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> For those who see life as eternal, it has much less of a sting as it's seen as only a transition into a better life.



Should be no sting. Should be welcomed.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 13, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> 2 things we can thank Adam and Eve for. Sin and Death as part of a fallen world. This concept that God does not deserve a healthy level of fear from us just does not fly with me. If there is no principles or word of God to live by than I create my own God, morals to live by, and can justify any behavior. From experience that is not a long term solution. kids and Wife will suffer most. I am not saying God struck my friend with Cancer. He certainly could have if he wanted to. The Holy Spirit certainly has used his cancer to reach others with Christ love. There are alot of people that swore they would never believe in Christ that have found salvation through this. So lets play out option A and B. Start with option A.His wife does not believe in God and Christ. Her comfort comes from things in this world. She focuses on money, pleasure, and her own wants and desires. She fears death because there is no heaven. No good comes of death but an end of suffering. She has no source of strength when her husband passes. My friend believes the same things. He is scared like a little kid when he passes. He has no legacy to leave for his kids but a pile of cash, a great golf game, and spent most of his time out seeking pleasure away from his kids. He dies uncertain of where he is going. Then there is the chance of - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -. You don't have to believe in - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - to wind up there for eternity. Or option B Where they believe in Christ and God. They have hope a miracle can happen.  But have more faith because they believe the miracle already happened in salvation. The Miracle is very obvious by who my friend is as a father, husband, and his desire to bring others to Christ. He knows life here is temporary and his real home is eternity in heaven with God. He dies with faith and peace. His kids have an amazing legacy to live by. My Grandfather passed a few months ago. Great man. Retired Navy. Taught me how to work. He was old but strong as they come mentally.  He believed Christ was real. Not sure he believed he was the son of God. We spoke with him but still are not sure he ever accepted salvation. Before he passed there was no peace or comfort. He was like a scared child that no one could calm. Taking option B man. When the Holy Spirit does put Christ in your heart you will know it. Humbling!





> If there is no principles or word of God to live by than I create my own God, morals to live by, and can justify any behavior.


Or you could not create any God, follow the laws of our society and do the right thing on your own. If you need a God to be a good person its probably a good thing you believe in God. 


> Start with option A.His wife does not believe in God and Christ. Her comfort comes from things in this world. She focuses on money, pleasure, and her own wants and desires.


Do Christians work to make money? Some of you even make money SELLING Gods word. Do Christians take a pleasurable vacation with their family? Christians don't have wants and desires? 


> She has no source of strength when her husband passes. My friend believes the same things. He is scared like a little kid when he passes. He has no legacy to leave for his kids but a pile of cash, a great golf game, and spent most of his time out seeking pleasure away from his kids. He dies uncertain of where he is going. Then there is the chance of - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -. You don't have to believe in - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - to wind up there for eternity. Or option B Where they believe in Christ and God. They have hope a miracle can happen.  But have more faith because they believe the miracle already happened in salvation. The Miracle is very obvious by who my friend is as a father, husband, and his desire to bring others to Christ. He knows life here is temporary and his real home is eternity in heaven with God. He dies with faith and peace. His kids have an amazing legacy to live by. My Grandfather passed a few months ago. Great man. Retired Navy. Taught me how to work. He was old but strong as they come mentally.  He believed Christ was real. Not sure he believed he was the son of God. We spoke with him but still are not sure he ever accepted salvation. Before he passed there was no peace or comfort. He was like a scared child that no one could calm. Taking option B man. When the Holy Spirit does put Christ in your heart you will know it. Humbling!


All the rest of that is a way to deal with fear. It makes you feel better. It reduces your fear. No more no less. Nothing wrong with that. But be honest enough to accept it for what it is.


> My Grandfather passed a few months ago. Great man. Retired Navy. Taught me how to work.


Sorry about your Grandfather. I miss mine dearly.


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## 660griz (Jan 13, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> Or you could not create any God, follow the laws of our society and do the right thing on your own. If you need a God to be a good person its probably a good thing you believe in God.



There is a saying that character/integrity is what one does when no one is looking. Some folks need 'someone' looking all the time.


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## TripleXBullies (Jan 13, 2014)

formula1 said:


> There are no changed lives without God involved! Period!



My ex wife's life changed several years ago. She became an alcoholic. Thanks God!


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## bullethead (Jan 13, 2014)

Lots of stage 4 Cancer diagnosis world wide, it must be the wise up tactic of the gods.

But then I think of my M-I-L, she'd rank right up there with the most devoted religious person on the planet.....it was a year Dec. 30 she passed.. the cancer literally ate her to nothing all the while making sure she could not eat for the last month of her life.
What was God telling her?


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## stringmusic (Jan 13, 2014)

NCHillbilly said:


> One good rain of blood and rattlesnakes from the sky accompanied by furious earthquakes and a loud, angry, commanding voice issuing from the sky, earth, and mountainsides quite likely would do more to convert the heathen masses than 10,000,000,000 small invisible miracles of faith that appear only to the already-converted.



.... and that's where you're wrong.


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## 660griz (Jan 13, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> .... and that's where you're wrong.



If Mt. Everest dissappeared and showed up where NYC is now, with a giant carving on the side that said, "God is Here"...that would do it.


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## TripleXBullies (Jan 13, 2014)

660griz said:


> If Mt. Everest dissappeared and showed up where NYC is now, with a giant carving on the side that said, "God is Here"...that would do it.



That would get my attention and I wouldn't doubt that an almighty was there. But it would have to say which god and it would be good for him to tell me what he REALLY wants. Even after that happened there would still be thousands of different stories about what he wants from us. And if we have the choice at all, there would still be the choice to ignore him.


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## bullethead (Jan 13, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> .... and that's where you're wrong.



The claims are this "god" has designed everything as it is including all the intricacies, life cycles, complex parts,orbit locations, the Ten Thousand Billion-Billion Stars, and on and on and on..he is the same god that can(supposedly if he wanted to) touch every single person in a way unique to them in order to understand he is real and then the individual can decide whether or not they want to follow.......Instead this god leaves HIS word...(probably the simplest thing to create, especially with the latest software today available to mere mortals)...in the hands of men. Not only can these men not get the stories straight, but what is contained in the best versions does not coincide with facts to back it up. This "god" made more appearances during in the Bible than Wayne Newton does shows in Vegas and yet he is a no show for thousands of years in a time when Sodom and Gemorra would be considered a vacation spot compared to most inner cities. We are to believe someone who lead a life "in the fast lane" was given Cancer as a sign from God???? It could not have been the years of Chemical abuse, whacking down cancer stix, genetic make up or any number of the literal thousands of factors that contribute to the thousands of types of cancer that has ravaged every animal on the planet, NO....it has got to be a sign from God. Maybe 2000 years ago it would have been, Heck even 150 years ago we didn't know about Germs, but I don't think this God has to catch up on times as much as his followers do. 
If Cancer is a sign from God then we have all been touched. Cancer cells are in each and every single one of us RIGHT NOW. It is the ability of your body/immune system that fights them off and keeps them in check. It is genetic make up and or lifestyle indulgences and or exposure to harmful chemicals either inadvertently or on purpose(among hundreds of other factors) that can cause the cancer cells to not stay in check by the body.
So yeah, if at any time, NOW would be a great time for God to stop by and give us some OT and NT(well the ones that can not be totally explained by natural occurrences) Signs and if that is too much to ask then the individual visit I guess is out of the question.


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## bullethead (Jan 13, 2014)

TripleXBullies said:


> That would get my attention and I wouldn't doubt that an almighty was there. But it would have to say which god and it would be good for him to tell me what he REALLY wants. Even after that happened there would still be thousands of different stories about what he wants from us. And if we have the choice at all, there would still be the choice to ignore him.



Isn't that the truth.....


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## Bob2010 (Jan 13, 2014)

Life is too short. If it is a big lie I have nothing to loose. Accepting Christ saved my marriage and family.  I used to believe life is so bad there is not a God. Or if there is a God he hates me and I'm going to - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - anyway. So why try to live his way or believe.  Angry about people suffering around me. Miserable life it was for me. Today I'm proud of who I am and who I have become. I didn't do it though.  I just did what I thought God wanted me to do. Christ died for me and you guys. Not my job to make you believe.  My job to tell you the good news. Its a humbling experience when all that anger and resentment crashes down around you. You relize christ did die for you and he loves you regardless of how angry you are at him. Regardless of how much you don't believe in him.  If the only source of strength I had came from me I would of died a long time ago. Good luck with that. Guess I am weak. Loving every minute of my time here on earth. I never said Christians can't have money. I said our source of strength and peace comes from God.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 13, 2014)

bullethead said:


> The claims are this "god" has designed everything as it is including all the intricacies, life cycles, complex parts,orbit locations, the Ten Thousand Billion-Billion Stars, and on and on and on..he is the same god that can(supposedly if he wanted to) touch every single person in a way unique to them in order to understand he is real and then the individual can decide whether or not they want to follow.......Instead this god leaves HIS word...(probably the simplest thing to create, especially with the latest software today available to mere mortals)...in the hands of men. Not only can these men not get the stories straight, but what is contained in the best versions does not coincide with facts to back it up. This "god" made more appearances during in the Bible than Wayne Newton does shows in Vegas and yet he is a no show for thousands of years in a time when Sodom and Gemorra would be considered a vacation spot compared to most inner cities. We are to believe someone who lead a life "in the fast lane" was given Cancer as a sign from God???? It could not have been the years of Chemical abuse, whacking down cancer stix, genetic make up or any number of the literal thousands of factors that contribute to the thousands of types of cancer that has ravaged every animal on the planet, NO....it has got to be a sign from God. Maybe 2000 years ago it would have been, Heck even 150 years ago we didn't know about Germs, but I don't think this God has to catch up on times as much as his followers do.
> If Cancer is a sign from God then we have all been touched. Cancer cells are in each and every single one of us RIGHT NOW. It is the ability of your body/immune system that fights them off and keeps them in check. It is genetic make up and or lifestyle indulgences and or exposure to harmful chemicals either inadvertently or on purpose(among hundreds of other factors) that can cause the cancer cells to not stay in check by the body.
> So yeah, if at any time, NOW would be a great time for God to stop by and give us some OT and NT(well the ones that can not be totally explained by natural occurrences) Signs and if that is too much to ask then the individual visit I guess is out of the question.





> It could not have been the years of Chemical abuse, whacking down cancer stix, genetic make up or any number of the literal thousands of factors that contribute to the thousands of types of cancer that has ravaged every animal on the planet,


Of course not silly, that's why Christians are immune to cancer.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 13, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> Life is too short. If it is a big lie I have nothing to loose. Accepting Christ saved my marriage and family.  I used to believe life is so bad there is not a God. Or if there is a God he hates me and I'm going to - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - anyway. So why try to live his way or believe.  Angry about people suffering around me. Miserable life it was for me. Today I'm proud of who I am and who I have become. I didn't do it though.  I just did what I thought God wanted me to do. Christ died for me and you guys. Not my job to make you believe.  My job to tell you the good news. Its a humbling experience when all that anger and resentment crashes down around you. You relize christ did die for you and he loves you regardless of how angry you are at him. Regardless of how much you don't believe in him.  If the only source of strength I had came from me I would of died a long time ago. Good luck with that. Guess I am weak. Loving every minute of my time here on earth. I never said Christians can't have money. I said our source of strength and peace comes from God.


Its great that a belief in a God was what you needed to fix your life.
However a lot of people who don't believe in any God or a different God than you, do this too -


> Loving every minute of my time here on earth.


I wonder how can that be?


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## bullethead (Jan 13, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> Life is too short. If it is a big lie I have nothing to loose. Accepting Christ saved my marriage and family.  I used to believe life is so bad there is not a God. Or if there is a God he hates me and I'm going to - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - anyway. So why try to live his way or believe.  Angry about people suffering around me. Miserable life it was for me. Today I'm proud of who I am and who I have become. I didn't do it though.  I just did what I thought God wanted me to do. Christ died for me and you guys. Not my job to make you believe.  My job to tell you the good news. Its a humbling experience when all that anger and resentment crashes down around you. You relize christ did die for you and he loves you regardless of how angry you are at him. Regardless of how much you don't believe in him.  If the only source of strength I had came from me I would of died a long time ago. Good luck with that. Guess I am weak. Loving every minute of my time here on earth. I never said Christians can't have money. I said our source of strength and peace comes from God.



Please explain why you feel that if it is a lie you have nothing to lose?


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## NCHillbilly (Jan 13, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> A lot of reading here. Most of which is far beyond what I am capable of understanding.    I have a friend with 3 small kids under 7 years old, a great wife, and a successful business.  He lived in the fast lane. He said God if you want me than you better get me. Because unless you show me your real I will continue to do what I want to do. Diagnosed with stage 4 cancer within a week out of the blue. There is a booming voice for you! Fighting it now and things aren't looking good with his health and treatments. He believes a miracle is possible.  He also believes a miracles already happened. When he accepted salvation and heard Gods booming voice the war was done. The Miracle is his heart change brought peace and life even after death. He is a different husband, father, and spends time in scripture trying to bring others to live right now instead of waiting for God to prove himself. Ask him if he cares about a mountain moving. Or tell him his miracle that is happening as he is physically dying doesn't count because its not big enough or visible to others. If God has to move mountains today for us to believe than he should just remove our free will right. He doesn't want us to believe and love him because we have no choice.  He wants us to make a choice to believe and love him. He proved with miracles enough in those times. If he decided to move mountains today he would probably just be about angry enough to just remove our free will and force us to love him. Why do we think we know what God should do or act like we are supposed to understand why he doesn't do something.  Its like thinking I am capable understanding the trinity. We will never understand God completely.  He is 1 million steps ahead of any of us.



My dad was a very good man. He was a very sincere Christian. In fact, he was an ordained Baptist preacher. He got cancer and died. The only thing that accomplished was to cause him and all of us a great deal of pain and suffering. 



stringmusic said:


> .... and that's where you're wrong.



I'm not so sure about that at all. Somebody telling me that God made them happy or feel warm and fuzzy or fixed a problem for them doesn't make me want to go to church this Sunday. The sky splitting open and God's head poking out of the crack telling me in a thunderous voice that I was wrong and he was gonna send me to hades if I didn't straighten up would make me run there. Quickly. I wouldn't wait 'til Sunday.


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## stringmusic (Jan 13, 2014)

NCHillbilly said:


> I'm not so sure about that at all. Somebody telling me that God made them happy or feel warm and fuzzy or fixed a problem for them doesn't make me want to go to church this Sunday. The sky splitting open and God's head poking out of the crack telling me in a thunderous voice that I was wrong and he was gonna send me to hades if I didn't straighten up would make me run there. Quickly. I wouldn't wait 'til Sunday.



Nah, couple of days afterwards you'd be blaming the experience on a bad burrito you ate from the gas station.

People stood right in front of Christ as He did miracles, and still didn't believe.


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## Bob2010 (Jan 13, 2014)

bullethead said:


> Please explain why you feel that if it is a lie you have nothing to lose?



Even when I did not believe in Christ I believed there had to be some kind of creator. If the moon was closer or farther away we die. If the sun was closer or farther away we die. If gravity was a bit stronger we are crushed if it weaker there is no life here. Our bodies just know how to stay alive.  I tried to say there is no god but even science proves the odds of all the environmental circumstances coming together to form this world and life forms is like 1 and a billion. I tried to deny God out of anger. But I knew there was a creator. So then the day came where things got so bad I was ready to die. Well maybe I should figure out who this creator is and try his way. My way is horrible and my thinking is not good. Christ was not my answer. I tried other creators and Gods first. That worked too. Because all I needed at that point was something other than my own thoughts and beliefs.  The day came years later where my marriage was about to die. My kids overwhemed me to the point I was avoiding them. I had to look at my belief in God and question it. I couldn't move on past my own resentment at Christ and Christians ( my family ) I knew there was a creator so whats real or right. Native Americans, Buddha, Jewish, or Christians. I started with Christianity has more history recorded and proof than anything else. The truth is whether its illness, a booming voice, a thought, or some other experience.  When the Holy Spirit gets to you its hard to deny it. It changes your heart once you believe it or go through your own experience of salvation. I was unable to find the direction I needed to have my wife be proud to be mine. I was unable to teach my boys how to grow up to be men. What that responsibility looked like. My Dad tried but he didn't really know how to do it either. Why my folks divorced after 20 years of marriage. Its a simple choice. If I believe Christ was real and died for my sins then I believe in his word. I live a life that will be God honoring.  I have a amazing example of how to treat my wife and kids. I spend eternity in heaven. I loose being stubborn, smarter than God, being angry, and having no hope. It benefits me to believe in God and Christ. He tells us in scripture that death and suffering is going to happen. That we live in a fallen world. You can be angry about it but it won't change it. Might as well learn what the answer is for that sin problem that comes along with death in a fallen World. Its covered! He died on the cross. God had it figured out a long time ago.


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## 660griz (Jan 13, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> Nah, couple of days afterwards you'd be blaming the experience on a bad burrito you ate from the gas station.
> 
> People stood right in front of Christ as He did miracles, and still didn't believe.



There were a few NOT doing mushrooms.


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## bullethead (Jan 13, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> Nah, couple of days afterwards you'd be blaming the experience on a bad burrito you ate from the gas station.
> 
> People stood right in front of Christ as He did miracles, and still didn't believe.



Makes a guy wonder if they were miracles at all. The miracles may have happened with the pen much later.


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## Ridge Walker (Jan 13, 2014)

I don't know if there's a god or not, but I can tell you that in 46 years I have not seen one single thing to make me think that there is.

RW


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## Bob2010 (Jan 13, 2014)

Ridge Walker said:


> I don't know if there's a god or not, but I can tell you that in 46 years I have not seen one single thing to make me think that there is.
> 
> RW



I like your honesty.  I have felt that way before but knew it wasn't true. I am not trying to change your mind but I have a question.  Do you believe in hope? And if so where does that hope come from.


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## drippin' rock (Jan 13, 2014)

If God ever does poke his head through the clouds for a quick hello, he'll have some explaining to do.


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## stringmusic (Jan 13, 2014)

660griz said:


> There were a few NOT doing mushrooms.





bullethead said:


> Makes a guy wonder if they were miracles at all. The miracles may have happened with the pen much later.



It makes you wonder if they were miracles at all, because you don't believe that Jesus was the Son of God, I don't wonder at all.

Some of the writings of the NT were written in plenty of time for the people who were actually there to have called them all out to be liars if they weren't true.


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## stringmusic (Jan 13, 2014)

drippin' rock said:


> If God ever does poke his head through the clouds for a quick hello, he'll have some explaining to do.



To who? God doesn't owe any of us anything, especially an explanation of anything.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 13, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> To who? God doesn't owe any of us anything, especially an explanation of anything.


Now think about that String. God doesn't owe you anything? Isnt the payment for worshipping him and doing what he says a trip to the happy place upstairs?
Christianity is based on what you will receive for being a Christian. You worship, give money, perform deeds, defend him and spread his word because you know at the end he will OWE you a trip upstairs. You didn't ask for that. You are TOLD that is what you will receive. And you expect to receive it. It is owed to you. Its a big part of why you do it.


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## StriperrHunterr (Jan 13, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> Now think about that String. God doesn't owe you anything? Isnt the payment for worshipping him and doing what he says a trip to the happy place upstairs?
> Christianity is based on what you will receive for being a Christian. You worship, give money, perform deeds, defend him and spread his word because you know at the end he will OWE you a trip upstairs.



Pretty much. If you did all that and he sent you to Hades anyway, what was the point of any of it?


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## Ridge Walker (Jan 13, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> I like your honesty.  I have felt that way before but knew it wasn't true. I am not trying to change your mind but I have a question.  Do you believe in hope? And if so where does that hope come from.



I "hope" for things which is really just wanting things to work out the way I'd like them to. Whether my hope is fulfilled or denied has nothing to do with any god.


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## centerpin fan (Jan 13, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> To who? God doesn't owe any of us anything, especially an explanation of anything.



Exactly.  

What will happen is "every knee will bow and every tongue shall confess".


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## TripleXBullies (Jan 13, 2014)

You're expecting that to happen. He owes it to yo fulfill his promises. What if it is basically your god that is the real one, but he doesn't do some of those things? 



centerpin fan said:


> Exactly.
> 
> What will happen is "every knee will bow and every tongue shall confess".


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## drippin' rock (Jan 13, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> To who? God doesn't owe any of us anything, especially an explanation of anything.



That's convenient.


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## StriperrHunterr (Jan 13, 2014)

drippin' rock said:


> That's convenient.



Have low expectations and you'll also have low disappointment.


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## stringmusic (Jan 13, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> Now think about that String. God doesn't owe you anything? Isnt the payment for worshipping him and doing what he says a trip to the happy place upstairs?
> Christianity is based on what you will receive for being a Christian. You worship, give money, perform deeds, defend him and spread his word because you know at the end he will OWE you a trip upstairs. You didn't ask for that. You are TOLD that is what you will receive. And you expect to receive it. It is owed to you. Its a big part of why you do it.


I'm sorry, but you're incorrect on all accounts.


drippin' rock said:


> That's convenient.


So you get to make the rules?

Explain to me why God owes you anything.


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## TripleXBullies (Jan 13, 2014)

The wages of is death but the gift of god is eternal life. He owes it to me or you to follow up on that promise. At the very least.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 13, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> I'm sorry, but you're incorrect on all accounts.


Sure String, Christianity isn't a reward based system. Gotcha.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 13, 2014)

> Originally Posted by stringmusic View Post
> To who? God doesn't owe any of us anything, especially an explanation of anything.





> That's convenient.





StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Have low expectations and you'll also have low disappointment.


Funny how that is built into the indoctrination. Almost like its on purpose.


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## StriperrHunterr (Jan 13, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> Funny how that is built into the indoctrination. Almost like its on purpose.



All I know is that I require more from things I subscribe to, and if they can't fit into it I'm honest about the exception.


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## stringmusic (Jan 13, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> Sure String, Christianity isn't a reward based system. Gotcha.


I don't consider Christianity, which is based on the fact that Christ came and died for people so they could be reconciled to God but deserved to be apart from God, a reward based system. Not that there is not a reward, but that is not the basis of Christianity.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jan 13, 2014)

660griz said:


> None. If all attempts to heal using the todays technology didn't work, you are going to die. Everyone is going to die, anyway. There is no hope for immortality. Deal with it like a man.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Atheism is one bleak truth claim, but then again I guess it can be nothing else.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jan 13, 2014)

660griz said:


> Should be no sting. Should be welcomed.



Only if you're a Christian, but even then there the mourning of the separation.


----------



## drippin' rock (Jan 13, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> I'm sorry, but you're incorrect on all accounts.
> 
> So you get to make the rules?
> 
> Explain to me why God owes you anything.



No rule making here.  I don't by into your world view, so it is easy for me to say he/she/it has some explaining to do.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jan 13, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> exactly.
> 
> What will happen is "every knee will bow and every tongue shall confess".



exactly!!!   Every knee!!!


----------



## WaltL1 (Jan 13, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> I don't consider Christianity, which is based on the fact that Christ came and died for people so they could be reconciled to God but deserved to be apart from God, a reward based system. Not that there is not a reward, but that is not the basis of Christianity.


If certain rules, requirements and beliefs are laid out that you have to abide by to achieve this reconciliation its a reward system.
Your own statement points that out -


> so they could be reconciled


You didn't say are reconciled, you said could be reconciled. And you are correct. To turn the could into are you have to subscribe and abide by the system. By doing so you are rewarded with this reconciliation. Its absolutely the basis of Christianity. Its how you become a Christian. No Christians, No Christianity.
Its a reward based system.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 13, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> It makes you wonder if they were miracles at all, because you don't believe that Jesus was the Son of God, I don't wonder at all.
> 
> Some of the writings of the NT were written in plenty of time for the people who were actually there to have called them all out to be liars if they weren't true.



You better check who had the copies of these writings and when those copies were available. The authors pretending to be Matthew,Mark, Luke and possibly John did not pen these out over a weekend and then stick them in mailboxes. Just like the claim about Jesus last words......the excuse is different writers heard different things....well the Disciples all scattered and fled when Jesus was arrested fearing they were next...all but John. So HOW could these Disciples who were NOT there hear Jesus last words? It shows these writings are filled with embellishments, plagiarism, and bold lies.
You are looking at it the wrong way. No one could call anyone out because no one saw the miracles, very very few people could actually read and even fewer were actually practicing Christians at the time that would go to a "church"/back alley place of worship where these writings would have been read. It was not legal to be a Christian until around 314A.D. No one came forward to back up the miracle claims....No One. It seems like everyone must have thought someone else was there to witness it.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Jan 13, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Atheism is one bleak truth claim, but then again I guess it can be nothing else.



The fact that the default position of Christianity is eternal - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -ation is pretty bleak, too.


----------



## Terminal Idiot (Jan 13, 2014)

GunnSmokeer said:


> You can walk on water.
> 
> THAT would be a miracle.
> 
> .



I saw David Blaine do this. It was great.


----------



## centerpin fan (Jan 13, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> If certain rules, requirements and beliefs are laid out that you have to abide by to achieve this reconciliation its a reward system.
> Your own statement points that out -
> 
> You didn't say are reconciled, you said could be reconciled. And you are correct. To turn the could into are you have to subscribe and abide by the system. By doing so you are rewarded with this reconciliation. Its absolutely the basis of Christianity. Its how you become a Christian. No Christians, No Christianity.
> Its a reward based system.




If I believed that, I wouldn't be a Christian, either.


----------



## centerpin fan (Jan 13, 2014)

NCHillbilly said:


> The fact that the default position of Christianity is eternal - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -ation is pretty bleak, too.



I disagree.  The default position was life in Eden.  Adam listened to Satan and chose another path.  Christ gives everyone another chance.


----------



## GunnSmokeer (Jan 13, 2014)

*Thread  Drift*

Wow, this thread has really gone off-topic.

I guess the admins around here started it by moving it to the Athiest forum instead of the other one-- religious talk and questions or whatever it was called.

I believe I had put it in the right place, because I wasn't asking Athiests to tell me why they don't think there is a God. I was asking for god-fearing people (Christians and others who believe in the God of Abraham and Moses) to explain this thing about amazing huge God-proving miracles in the old days and the kind of "miracles" we see today, which do nothing to prove there is a god, or to prove one deity is better than another, etc.  

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
SO LET'S  GO BACK  TO   THE   ORIGINAL   QUESTION
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Why doesn't God demonstrate his power to all people, at least once in their lifetimes? Once every 50 years, maybe?

And I don't mean giving a "vision" to a "prophet." Anybody can claim to have had a message from God. 

Why doesn't God provide some proof that there is a God, and that God is all-powerful? 

God has put on demonstrations before. Jesus is said to have done a bunch of real miracles. Not lame half-baked sort-of miracles, but big powerful things that simply cannot be explained any other way. Water into wine. Walking on Water. Raising the "dead" once could be luck, if the person wasn't really dead. Raising the dead several times and curing well-known cripples and blind people several times-- those are miracles too.

Elijah got God to demonstrate His power just for the sake of showing the people that He is God, and Baal was not. God, on cue and in full view of a crowd, burned up an offering and even the stones of the altar, too. No way could that be attributed to luck, or accident, or any natural occurrence like a lighting strike.

Remember that thing about "if you had faith as small as a mustard seed, you could say to a mountain, 'move from there to there!' and the mountain would relocate itself" ? Well THAT's what I'd like to see. 

Have God announce that he's going to move Mt. Whitney from its current location in California to the middle of a farm field in Kansas. And then do it. And leave it there for 50 or years for people to marvel at, and know His power.

Then move it back!  (assuming a Wal-Mar shopping plaza and a bunch of cluster homes aren't built on the flat spot where the mountain used to be!)

...
Why would God demonstrate His power and authority 3000 years ago (Old Testament), and 2000 years ago (Jesus and the Disciples and Apostles), but not (in any way even remotely similar) since then?


----------



## bullethead (Jan 13, 2014)

GunnSmokeer said:


> Wow, this thread has really gone off-topic.
> 
> I guess the admins around here started it by moving it to the Athiest forum instead of the other one-- religious talk and questions or whatever it was called.
> 
> ...



I think you have God demonstrating his authority confused with the writers demonstrating theirs.

If you study the people in that region of the world that lived 2000-5000 years ago you will know why these were written. The same can be said about the religions all over the world. The lives of the people dictate the beliefs.


----------



## GunnSmokeer (Jan 13, 2014)

*unhelpful answer*

That's not a very helpful answer.

Saying the bible and the "miracles" in it are works of fiction is just like saying there is no God.  

Okay, we get it. That's your position. But it's not useful here and it's not going to encourage others to try to address the question.


----------



## drippin' rock (Jan 14, 2014)

GunnSmokeer said:


> That's not a very helpful answer.
> 
> Saying the bible and the "miracles" in it are works of fiction is just like saying there is no God.
> 
> Okay, we get it. That's your position. But it's not useful here and it's not going to encourage others to try to address the question.



You aren't going to find a satisfactory answer here because there is none.


----------



## 660griz (Jan 14, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Atheism is one bleak truth claim, but then again I guess it can be nothing else.



True. 

"Uncertainty in the pressure of vivid hopes and fears is painful, but must be endured if we wish to live without the support of comforting fairy tales." 
--Bertrand Russell


----------



## stringmusic (Jan 14, 2014)

bullethead said:


> You better check who had the copies of these writings and when those copies were available. The authors pretending to be Matthew,Mark, Luke and possibly John did not pen these out over a weekend and then stick them in mailboxes. Just like the claim about Jesus last words......the excuse is different writers heard different things....well the Disciples all scattered and fled when Jesus was arrested fearing they were next...all but John. So HOW could these Disciples who were NOT there hear Jesus last words? It shows these writings are filled with embellishments, plagiarism, and bold lies.
> You are looking at it the wrong way. No one could call anyone out because no one saw the miracles, very very few people could actually read and even fewer were actually practicing Christians at the time that would go to a "church"/back alley place of worship where these writings would have been read. It was not legal to be a Christian until around 314A.D. No one came forward to back up the miracle claims....No One. It seems like everyone must have thought someone else was there to witness it.



You been reading to many "articles" by some dude in his whitey tighty's and eatin' cheetos in his basement.


----------



## stringmusic (Jan 14, 2014)

GunnSmokeer said:


> Wow, this thread has really gone off-topic.
> 
> I guess the admins around here started it by moving it to the Athiest forum instead of the other one-- religious talk and questions or whatever it was called.
> 
> ...



It's almost like something changed since Jesus, huh?


----------



## bullethead (Jan 14, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> You been reading to many "articles" by some dude in his whitey tighty's and eatin' cheetos in his basement.



Was that an attempt at a counter rebuttal?


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jan 14, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> It's almost like something changed since Jesus, huh?



That is probably the best argument I have ever seen from you. Too bad you left it at once sentence.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 14, 2014)

GunnSmokeer said:


> That's not a very helpful answer.
> 
> Saying the bible and the "miracles" in it are works of fiction is just like saying there is no God.
> 
> Okay, we get it. That's your position. But it's not useful here and it's not going to encourage others to try to address the question.



I am not saying there is no God. What I am saying is the Bible is not the best avenue to try to prove there is a God. 

In the pages of the Bible God's involvement with people abound, even though that involvement was only with a certain race and select group of people. Multiple writings over thousands of years were assembled to try to tell a story that flowed together, many other writings that did not go along with the flow were not included and many of those those were destroyed for being heretical.

For 3,000 years (roughly the time span the Bible covers) God made personal appearances and even sent his Son. In the 1,980 years since Jesus was put to death we have been in a very long God lull and not even his chosen people are writing about new visits from God. In the Bible God was always with them to crush their enemies yet today when the killings and unrest in that part of the region are as bad and have the potential to wipe out every living one of God's chosen people he is silent. I have to question not if God is real, but are the stories told about God in the Bible real or are they a fabrication of people that just did not have the understandings of things like we have today? We still have people today that meet a stranger and think they had a run in with an angel. People will justify whatever they can as an interaction with the God they worship out of want and need but I question why the people that don't worship that God can't tell of similar experiences.


----------



## Bob2010 (Jan 14, 2014)

Ridge Walker said:


> I "hope" for things which is really just wanting things to work out the way I'd like them to. Whether my hope is fulfilled or denied has nothing to do with any god.



I asked because 46 years of life with not one thing pointing to God seemed hopeless to me. Your definition of hope is more what I would consider a wish. I was not sure how to explain but I found this. "In other words, a biblical hope is not an escape from reality or from problems. It doesn’t leave us idle, drifting or just rocking on the front porch. If our hope is biblical and based on God's promises, it will put us in gear." So for me hope is more something that leads to faith and action on my part. What I hope for is possible if I get off my tail and go for it. My hope hope is from past experiences of God providing for me. You may not want prayers. But I will pray for you anyway.  Good luck man.


----------



## 660griz (Jan 14, 2014)

bullethead said:


> but I question why the people that don't worship that God can't tell of similar experiences.



I think the answer is in the question.


----------



## Nerf Warrior (Jan 14, 2014)

I think a full understanding of the Hebrew,Greek, Aramaic, language, customs and situations of the time is required to fully understand the Bible the way it was meant to be.  So many words have different meanings in different areas of use.  Ive been trusting God pretty much my whole life but have been slack in my study. I just recently began digging for my answers because as Ive gotten older Ive learned that alot of what Ive been taught has been tradition instead of Bible.  I would encourage others to do the same.  As to why God no longer shows himself as he did in Biblical days,  I dont think it would really be necessary.  In those days there was no other way to instill in others that there was a God so he showed them.  Then Jesus came on the scene and walked with man. An innocent man died on the cross and arose 3 days later.  This created so many witnesses to miracles and followers to carry on and spread his word. Their actual physical appearance was should no longer be necessary.  As for as miracles, I think you can find them where you look for them.   Some earth shattering and others just to let you know that God is with you.  I remember several years ago having one of those weeks when your ready to throw your hands up and quit.  Everything around the house was falling apart. You name it, if it could go wrong it did.  My hand in a cast, my wifes foot in a cast so things were kind of difficult.  I got bored enough to try to do some cleaning up, finally got my chainsaw cranked and was cleaning up this horrible tangled mess at the end of my driveway. As I began cutting the vines, briars and bramble, I noticed 1 little Buttercup in full bloom right in the middle of all that mess.  May not have been a miracle but it was a true blessing.  God has been so real in my life time and time again in the forms of miracles, blessings and discipline.  There is no way I could ever deny him.


----------



## BornNRaised (Jan 14, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> You assume that he doesn't.  I think life is a pretty miraculous thing, and I see it every day.





Well said!


----------



## drippin' rock (Jan 14, 2014)

Nerf Warrior said:


> I think a full understanding of the Hebrew,Greek, Aramaic, language, customs and situations of the time is required to fully understand the Bible the way it was meant to be.  So many words have different meanings in different areas of use.  Ive been trusting God pretty much my whole life but have been slack in my study. I just recently began digging for my answers because as Ive gotten older Ive learned that alot of what Ive been taught has been tradition instead of Bible.  I would encourage others to do the same.  As to why God no longer shows himself as he did in Biblical days,  I dont think it would really be necessary.  In those days there was no other way to instill in others that there was a God so he showed them.  Then Jesus came on the scene and walked with man. An innocent man died on the cross and arose 3 days later.  This created so many witnesses to miracles and followers to carry on and spread his word. Their actual physical appearance was should no longer be necessary.  As for as miracles, I think you can find them where you look for them.   Some earth shattering and others just to let you know that God is with you.  I remember several years ago having one of those weeks when your ready to throw your hands up and quit.  Everything around the house was falling apart. You name it, if it could go wrong it did.  My hand in a cast, my wifes foot in a cast so things were kind of difficult.  I got bored enough to try to do some cleaning up, finally got my chainsaw cranked and was cleaning up this horrible tangled mess at the end of my driveway. As I began cutting the vines, briars and bramble, I noticed 1 little Buttercup in full bloom right in the middle of all that mess.  May not have been a miracle but it was a true blessing.  God has been so real in my life time and time again in the forms of miracles, blessings and discipline.  There is no way I could ever deny him.



Why I the world should we have to delve into ancient languages to understand the true meaning of the bible?  Shouldn't the text be literal?  If this religion is relevant today, shouldn't the written message be plain for all to understand?


----------



## Nerf Warrior (Jan 14, 2014)

drippin' rock said:


> Why I the world should we have to delve into ancient languages to understand the true meaning of the bible?  Shouldn't the text be literal?  If this religion is relevant today, shouldn't the written message be plain for all to understand?


  The KJV Bible didnt come along until somewhere in the 1500's or the 1600's (I think, someone correct me on this) but it was translated to the version that we read now. The original text was in another language that isnt used now (or used by only a few). Like in the English language, we can have the same word for a different meaning with a different spelling.  Two, to, too, theyre, their, through, thru etc.. Im  by no means any expert as I have just started to look at different text, but the best I can gather is that they had 1 spelling for the same word with a different meaning which means you would have to know the customs or the situation that was taking place.  Now we have translators taking these words and inputting a word from modern language that is similar in meaning but not quite. Again Im just going on my personal observation and Im new to this 'looking for my own answer thing' and it seems that the deeper I dig the more confused I seem to get but my faith in God still stands.


----------



## centerpin fan (Jan 14, 2014)

Nerf Warrior said:


> The KJV Bible didnt come along until somewhere in the 1500's or the 1600's (I think, someone correct me on this)



1611, to be exact.  Three years ago, it celebrated its 400th anniversary.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jan 14, 2014)

In the Spanish I speak from South America, torta means cake. In Mexico, it is a sandwich. 

So you are saying that the Holy Bible that 99% of people round here have is NOT the inerrant word of their god?



Nerf Warrior said:


> The KJV Bible didnt come along until somewhere in the 1500's or the 1600's (I think, someone correct me on this) but it was translated to the version that we read now. The original text was in another language that isnt used now (or used by only a few). Like in the English language, we can have the same word for a different meaning with a different spelling.  Two, to, too, theyre, their, through, thru etc.. Im  by no means any expert as I have just started to look at different text, but the best I can gather is that they had 1 spelling for the same word with a different meaning which means you would have to know the customs or the situation that was taking place.  Now we have translators taking these words and inputting a word from modern language that is similar in meaning but not quite. Again Im just going on my personal observation and Im new to this 'looking for my own answer thing' and it seems that the deeper I dig the more confused I seem to get but my faith in God still stands.


----------



## Nerf Warrior (Jan 14, 2014)

TripleXBullies said:


> In the Spanish I speak from South America, torta means cake. In Mexico, it is a sandwich.
> 
> So you are saying that the Holy Bible that 99% of people round here have is NOT the inerrant word of their god?


This is why Im taking a different study route.  Do you want cake or a sandwich?  I cant answer you question. I fully believe the Bible is Gods infallible word and that Gods message is made clear to all.  That we are to love each other, and that without Christ in your life you are doomed to a sinners He--.  I do however believe that there are places(especially in the Old Testament) that this kind of incident with different translations or meanings in different regions could change some details or meanings of some of the scriptures. As in maybe' then the Israelites sat down to torta  and they gave thanks.  Could be cake or could be a sandwich but the main point is that they sat down to eat and that they gave thanks. Same but different. Only detail that is in question is what they ate. Im no scholar, just a sinner saved by grace and I can only speak for myself and I am wide open to others thoughts on the matter.


----------



## ambush80 (Jan 14, 2014)

Nerf Warrior said:


> The KJV Bible didnt come along until somewhere in the 1500's or the 1600's (I think, someone correct me on this) but it was translated to the version that we read now. The original text was in another language that isnt used now (or used by only a few). Like in the English language, we can have the same word for a different meaning with a different spelling.  Two, to, too, theyre, their, through, thru etc.. Im  by no means any expert as I have just started to look at different text, but the best I can gather is that they had 1 spelling for the same word with a different meaning which means you would have to know the customs or the situation that was taking place.  Now we have translators taking these words and inputting a word from modern language that is similar in meaning but not quite. Again Im just going on my personal observation and Im new to this 'looking for my own answer thing' and it seems that the deeper I dig the more confused I seem to get but my faith in God still stands.




Ohhhhhhh, look out now!!!


----------



## mtnwoman (Jan 14, 2014)

Ronnie T said:


> GunnSmokeer,
> 
> The key issue in this subject you've delved into is "Faith".
> 
> ...



Amen!! We are saved by faith alone.  None of us have proof that we can show you. Unless you can open your eyes and see all the miraculous things around us. The moon and the tides, the sun and the days, the plants and food we eat, the meat we can get, the children that are born, all the medicines that are derived from the earth. There is nothing on this earth made out of nothing by anyone...God provided everything we need to advance in science, invention, and discovery for our good.  Evil things can also be made out of those same 'ingrediences' that were created by God for our good. satan counterfeits everything. Music, destruction of the earth by greedy men, hate and injustice towards God's best creation, Man.


----------



## mtnwoman (Jan 14, 2014)

Nerf Warrior said:


> The KJV Bible didnt come along until somewhere in the 1500's or the 1600's (I think, someone correct me on this) but it was translated to the version that we read now. The original text was in another language that isnt used now (or used by only a few). Like in the English language, we can have the same word for a different meaning with a different spelling.  Two, to, too, theyre, their, through, thru etc.. Im  by no means any expert as I have just started to look at different text, but the best I can gather is that they had 1 spelling for the same word with a different meaning which means you would have to know the customs or the situation that was taking place.  Now we have translators taking these words and inputting a word from modern language that is similar in meaning but not quite. Again Im just going on my personal observation and Im new to this 'looking for my own answer thing' and it seems that the deeper I dig the more confused I seem to get but my faith in God still stands.




Hebrew is not a dead language.  Yes I know aramaic, greek , too.  I don't think anyone haphazzardly translated the Bible. Just like great scientists, there are scholars that are/were well qualified to translate. 
Besides our salvation is ONLY based on faith in Him. I doubt there are many of us who study the bible will ever ever get the gist of it all. So I just stand on faith like you, that He will either reveal it to me, but even if He doesn't, I remain firm on the 'foundation'.


----------



## mtnwoman (Jan 14, 2014)

drippin' rock said:


> Why I the world should we have to delve into ancient languages to understand the true meaning of the bible?  Shouldn't the text be literal?  If this religion is relevant today, shouldn't the written message be plain for all to understand?



It is plain to read. You start at John 3:16 and from there you come into wisdom about the rest of it....not all of it, not for me anyway..that's why I continue in Bible study, and no I do not agree with everything that is told to me.


----------



## mtnwoman (Jan 14, 2014)

TripleXBullies said:


> In the Spanish I speak from South America, torta means cake. In Mexico, it is a sandwich.
> 
> So you are saying that the Holy Bible that 99% of people round here have is NOT the inerrant word of their god?



So God says, I will give you manna, or a cake, or a sandwich while you are starving in the middle of the desert, you couldn't comprehendo?


----------



## HawgJawl (Jan 15, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> Amen!! We are saved by faith alone.



There's a little more needed than just faith alone.  There are plenty of faithful followers who have faith in the god of their respective religions.  I think it matters which god you have faith in.

The OP would like the "real" god to identify himself.


----------



## drippin' rock (Jan 15, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> There's a little more needed than just faith alone.  There are plenty of faithful followers who have faith in the god of their respective religions.  I think it matters which god you have faith in.
> 
> The OP would like the "real" god to identify himself.



Wouldn't we all...


----------



## ambush80 (Jan 15, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Let's put the shoe on the other foot Griz. Your beliefs must address the problem also.  Death is not just a Christian problem.
> 
> What hope would your belief offer him?  What consolation would it offer the family?  Be honest.



The same consolation I give myself:  "Stuff happens".  Live everyday like it's your last, love your family like you may never see them again, feel lucky for your chance to live and try your best to enjoy even the "suck".


----------



## ambush80 (Jan 15, 2014)

GunnSmokeer said:


> Wow, this thread has really gone off-topic.
> 
> I guess the admins around here started it by moving it to the Athiest forum instead of the other one-- religious talk and questions or whatever it was called.
> 
> ...



I'm still wondering why they moved this here too.  You're obviously a Christian and want an answer to your question from a Biblical standpoint.  Perhaps anytime a Christian asks "Why would God do this or that?"  it should be moved down to the Apologetics dungeon.


----------



## Bob2010 (Jan 15, 2014)

None of this is off topic. God wants us to choose to love him and believe his son died on the cross. If he moved a mountain thats not us making a choice to love him. We are making a last ditch effort to save our own tail because we were wrong before. Like you kid only loving you when he wants to use the car. All of this is related to why he does not move mountains.


----------



## JB0704 (Jan 15, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> You're obviously a Christian and want an answer to your question from a Biblical standpoint.  Perhaps anytime a Christian asks "Why would God do this or that?"  it should be moved down to the Apologetics dungeon.




I didn't get that from his posts, at all.  Perhaps he is.....but, the tone of his responses indicated he had his answer before he made the post.

I have no idea why they moved it, but I originally wondered why he posted it up there instead of here myself.

That being said, the answer to his question is covered in the Bible if he wants that info.  Aside from that, if he is looking for theory, he will remain unsatisfied with anything short of a talking donkey sitting next to a burning bush on top of a moving mountain.


----------



## JB0704 (Jan 15, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> The OP would like the "real" god to identify himself.



.....and that's what God has to do, for you.  Then, you will do your best to believe?


----------



## bullethead (Jan 15, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> .....and that's what God has to do, for you.  Then, you will do your best to believe?



Who is to say any one of us are not doing their best to believe?


----------



## JB0704 (Jan 15, 2014)

bullethead said:


> Who is to say any one of us are not doing their best to believe?



Bullet, I think you want to believe in God, I may have misjudged you, but that's kind-a what I got from your story about your MIL.

If I am wrong, I will apologize, but the whole point of the OP seems to ask "Just one big miracle, then I'll believe."

That puts the burden on God.  Which, makes sense if you don't think he's there......that would be my basis as well, a real demonstration of power an authority over things.

But, I personally think there is enough there for the motivated seeker to find God.  That's how I interpret the data.  I said so very early in this thread, and it was called "lame," which left nothing for anybody to do than let the OP make his case.


----------



## bullethead (Jan 15, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> Bullet, I think you want to believe in God, I may have misjudged you, but that's kind-a what I got from your story about your MIL.
> 
> If I am wrong, I will apologize, but the whole point of the OP seems to ask "Just one big miracle, then I'll believe."
> 
> ...



I think that many, definitely myself, are confused about a God that wants us to have anything to do with him/her/it exists at all. I know even believers differ on beliefs and God(s). I think many that are unsure of the Who's/How's/Why's could get a much better understanding if a God, THE God, different Gods step in and give us what each of us need to KNOW as to whether or not we are on or off track. We do not need to know the secrets, we do not need to understand everything but there is no doubt some people have different requirements.
The OP might need a mountain moved. So be it. I don't doubt that would open a lot of eyes but if a mountain was moved in that matter with no specifics about WHO did it I would still want to know WHO did it. I'd be convinced it was something supernatural and most likely intelligent but anything beyond that would be a guess. Every single believer in some sort of God could and would give the credit to their God(s). Just like they do now, one sunset is credited to an unlimited number of Gods that are responsible. Now if along with the mountain moving a booming voice is heard worldwide and understood by all told us that "I am the God(s) as described in (______) and this is my way of letting you know in no uncertain terms that I am real" OR If that God(s) wants to make it a unique experience on an individual level I would love nothing more than to experience that. 
I DO believe that IF there is a God(s) that actually want our attention, GOD status would not just allow them but DEFINE them in their ability to touch us each in a personal way. I am telling you that if I have a 10 minute sit down with Jesus and then blow him off I certainly deserve whatever is coming to me. If I have a ten minute or ten day sit down with just one human each that represents their belief for each God that is worshiped just in today's times I am no closer to getting what I require to believe than I am right now.


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## HawgJawl (Jan 16, 2014)

Please take a moment and read Judges 6:17-40.

It is very relevant to this discussion.


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## JB0704 (Jan 16, 2014)

> *Judges 6:17 *Gideon replied, "If now I have found favor in your eyes, give me a sign that it is really you talking to me. 18 Please do not go away until I come back and bring my offering and set it before you." And the LORD said, "I will wait until you return." 19 Gideon went in, prepared a young goat, and from an ephah of flour he made bread without yeast. Putting the meat in a basket and its broth in a pot, he brought them out and offered them to him under the oak. 20 The angel of God said to him, "Take the meat and the unleavened bread, place them on this rock, and pour out the broth." And Gideon did so. 21 With the tip of the staff that was in his hand, the angel of the LORD touched the meat and the unleavened bread. Fire flared from the rock, consuming the meat and the bread. And the angel of the LORD disappeared. 22 When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the LORD, he exclaimed, "Ah, Sovereign LORD! I have seen the angel of the LORD face to face!" 23 But the LORD said to him, "Peace! Do not be afraid. You are not going to die." 24 So Gideon built an altar to the LORD there and called it The LORD is Peace. To this day it stands in Ophrah of the Abiezrites. 25 That same night the LORD said to him, "Take the second bull from your father's herd, the one seven years old. Tear down your father's altar to Baal and cut down the Asherah pole beside it. 26 Then build a proper kind of altar to the LORD your God on the top of this height. Using the wood of the Asherah pole that you cut down, offer the second bull as a burnt offering." 27 So Gideon took ten of his servants and did as the LORD told him. But because he was afraid of his family and the men of the town, he did it at night rather than in the daytime. 28 In the morning when the men of the town got up, there was Baal's altar, demolished, with the Asherah pole beside it cut down and the second bull sacrificed on the newly built altar! 29 They asked each other, "Who did this?" When they carefully investigated, they were told, "Gideon son of Joash did it." 30 The men of the town demanded of Joash, "Bring out your son. He must die, because he has broken down Baal's altar and cut down the Asherah pole beside it." 31 But Joash replied to the hostile crowd around him, "Are you going to plead Baal's cause? Are you trying to save him? Whoever fights for him shall be put to death by morning! If Baal really is a god, he can defend himself when someone breaks down his altar." 32 So that day they called Gideon "Jerub-Baal," saying, "Let Baal contend with him," because he broke down Baal's altar. 33 Now all the Midianites, Amalekites and other eastern peoples joined forces and crossed over the Jordan and camped in the Valley of Jezreel. 34 Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet, summoning the Abiezrites to follow him. 35 He sent messengers throughout Manasseh, calling them to arms, and also into Asher, Zebulun and Naphtali, so that they too went up to meet them. 36 Gideon said to God, "If you will save Israel by my hand as you have promised-- 37 look, I will place a wool fleece on the threshing floor. If there is dew only on the fleece and all the ground is dry, then I will know that you will save Israel by my hand, as you said." 38 And that is what happened. Gideon rose early the next day; he squeezed the fleece and wrung out the dew--a bowlful of water. 39 Then Gideon said to God, "Do not be angry with me. Let me make just one more request. Allow me one more test with the fleece. This time make the fleece dry and the ground covered with dew." 40 That night God did so. Only the fleece was dry; all the ground was covered with dew



For reference......


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## JB0704 (Jan 16, 2014)

HawgJawl, you regularly describe yourself as a Christian who has lost his faith......which I take to mean a person who lives by the teachings, but does not accept the deity......that being stated, I assume you are familiar with the concepts of old and new covenants?  Correct?

The answer is very relevant to what you are trying to point out with Judges.


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## HawgJawl (Jan 16, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> HawgJawl, you regularly describe yourself as a Christian who has lost his faith......which I take to mean a person who lives by the teachings, but does not accept the deity......that being stated, I assume you are familiar with the concepts of old and new covenants?  Correct?
> 
> The answer is very relevant to what you are trying to point out with Judges.



I wouldn't go so far as to say I don't accept a diety, but I do have trouble with much of what I view as a description of the diety invented by man.

I am familiar with the changing covenants of a God who does not change.


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## JB0704 (Jan 16, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> I am familiar with the changing covenants of a God who does not change.



So you also understand that the interaction is now different.  In the OT, folks sacrificed goats.  You don't see such things in the NT.


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## bullethead (Jan 16, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> So you also understand that the interaction is now different.  In the OT, folks sacrificed goats.  You don't see such things in the NT.



Goats in the OT

Son in the NT

the sacrifices didn't stop


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## HawgJawl (Jan 16, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> I am familiar with the changing covenants of a God who does not change.





JB0704 said:


> So you also understand that the interaction is now different.  In the OT, folks sacrificed goats.  You don't see such things in the NT.




What interaction, specifically?

The reason I think the scripture from Judges is important is that it directly contradicts the assertion (made by some) that God doesn't work that way.  God was asked for a miracle or sign to prove that He was real, and He provided such a sign, more than once.

You can't ask God for a miracle because you're not supposed to test God.  That wasn't the case here.

God doesn't provide miracles or signs just because you ask Him to.  That wasn't the case here.

Just who do you think you are to tell God to do something?  God doesn't answer to man.  That wasn't the case here.

Scripture says that God provided a miracle or sign when asked by man, on more than one occasion.  The only reasonable answer to the OP is that God doesn't do that anymore.


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## JB0704 (Jan 16, 2014)

bullethead said:


> the sacrifices didn't stop



Yes.  There was one last one.  Then, everything changed.


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## bullethead (Jan 16, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> Yes.  There was one last one.  Then, everything changed.



From: http://www.seedofabraham.net/ntsac.html


Conclusion

Questioning the validity of the concept that sacrifice ended with the Sacrifice of Jesus, we found that the phrase 'once and for all' meant that the Lord didn't have to come back and be sacrificed for each generation. It didn't pertain to the ending of sacrifice in the earthly Temple.

In the New Covenant, many years after the one-time Sacrifice of Jesus, we've seen how Paul, in Acts 21:20ff, took upon himself the Nazarite Vow. This proved that sacrifice was not seen as having been done away with by either the Apostles Paul, Peter, John, or James the head of the Jewish believers, as they were all involved with Paul's taking the Vow. On the contrary, he takes the Nazarite Vow which entails sin sacrifice as well as other sacrifices, to prove that he still follows the Law of Moses. This opened up a larger theological context for us in speaking of the place of the Law in the life of every believer. We didn't fully flush it out because of the nature of this study. For more on the Law, see Law 102 and my book, The Lifting of the Veil: Acts 15:20-21.


We saw in the book of Hebrews, that the English translators gave us their theological understanding of what they wanted the Greek to say but it contradicted the Word of God in Lev. 4-5, in that God instituted forgiveness through the Mosaic Sacrifices. And it also went against what the writer of Hebrews had just written a few verses before their poor translation of 10:4 and 10:11, where he tells us that the Mosaic Sacrifices could cleanse the flesh but not the conscience. When the translators should have given us the meaning of the word for sin nature, they failed to do so, and distorted the meaning of what the writer was saying. Hebrews 10:4 and 10:11 speak of the blood of bulls and goats not being able to take away our sin nature. The blood of bulls and goats, while forgiving sin, could not effect our sin nature and therefore, was not able to make us into the Image of Yeshua so that we could dwell in Yahveh's Presence forever, what the writer would called 'perfection'.

Sacrifice was still going on in the Temple when Hebrews was written (Heb. 8:4), and Hebrews compares, but does not do away with, either sacrifice or the earthly High Priesthood. The author compares the High Priests; Yeshua versus the Aaronic, in that One lives forever and does not sin, while the other dies and is sinful. He also compares the blood of the sacrifice, in that Yeshua's is once and more powerful, in that it deals with the core problem in Israel, the sin nature, and offers Eternal Life. The Mosaic Sacrifice, specifically on the Day of Atonement, in offering forgiveness for sin, was not able to (or ever intended to), relieve the Israeli of sin consciousness or to address his sin nature. The different definitions for 'sin' also helped us to understand the Apostles John and Paul in their application of sinful acts or sin nature, etc.

In searching out the meaning of the New Covenant, we saw that it didn't do away with the Law but that it offered better realities to us: Our High Priest is sinless and Eternal, while the Aaronic High Priests sinned and died. The Blood of Yeshua forgives our sinful acts as well as dealing with our sin nature. The blood of bulls and goats could only forgive our sinful acts. The Gift that we receive from our High Priest is Eternal Life and the Holy Spirit within us now. The gifts of the Aaronic Priesthood were forgiveness of sin and an abundant life in the Land of Israel. With the change in the Priesthood, we saw that a change in the Law meant that there was just that, a change in the Law, not that the Law was canceled because of the change of Priesthood.

The Prophet Ezekiel showed us that sacrifice, Sabbath, New Moon and Passover will continue in the thousand year reign of Yeshua, in spite of what the commentaries say to the contrary. And Yeshua Himself will provide and perform some of the sacrifices, as our Prince.

In Revelation we saw how the Altar in Heaven is not only the reality for the Altar of Sacrifice in the Tabernacle of Moses but is functional in Heaven for us today, and into Eternity. The Altar in Heaven unifies the 'Old', the 'New' and the 'yet to be.' This shows us that sacrifice, while being done away with by the Church, is still very important to God, especially as all the various sacrifices picture the Sacrifice that He has given to us in His Son.

From all this, we can conclude that sacrifice was never seen as ending by the writers of the New Testament, or 'being done away with' and will continue in the thousand year reign of Yeshua, the Messiah of Israel.


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## JB0704 (Jan 17, 2014)

Bullet, we can get into a pretty detailed theological discussion here if we are going to start talking about how the law applies today.  Not sure if you guys are interested, but I'm up for it if you are.

It would require the posting of an awful lot of scripture.....just a head's up.


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## bullethead (Jan 17, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> Bullet, we can get into a pretty detailed theological discussion here if we are going to start talking about how the law applies today.  Not sure if you guys are interested, but I'm up for it if you are.
> 
> It would require the posting of an awful lot of scripture.....just a head's up.



Which language? Greek or Aramaic?

But......I was not talking about how the Law is applied today......I was giving you examples of sacrifice in the NT in which those ways did not stop for a thousand years.
I know how much humans have advanced in 100 years, a thousand years makes quite a difference and there is no way you can compare what we interpret today to 2000 years ago. It took 300+ years for those writings to finally catch on and another 700 years for the cultures to advance far enough to distance themselves from the old practices. And...even then the Europeans are the ones that ran with it(turning Jesus into more of what they wanted him to be and look like) while the majority of people that lived right where Jesus lived still do not go by anything written in the NT. Posting NT scripture as proof of Laws would be a waste except if you want to use the people that advanced a thousand years and a Continent away.


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## JB0704 (Jan 17, 2014)

bullethead said:


> Which language? Greek or Aramaic?
> 
> But......I was not talking about how the Law is applied today......I was giving you examples of sacrifice in the NT in which those ways did not stop for a thousand years.
> I know how much humans have advanced in 100 years, a thousand years makes quite a difference and there is no way you can compare what we interpret today to 2000 years ago. It took 300+ years for those writings to finally catch on and another 700 years for the cultures to advance far enough to distance themselves from the old practices. And...even then the Europeans are the ones that ran with it(turning Jesus into more of what they wanted him to be and look like) while the majority of people that lived right where Jesus lived still do not go by anything written in the NT. Posting NT scripture as proof of Laws would be a waste except if you want to use the people that advanced a thousand years and a Continent away.



Then, we won't bother with it


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## jmharris23 (Jan 17, 2014)

I know the bible really doesn't mean squat to those in this forum, and I understand that, but it does speak to these issues at hand. 

According to the bible, Christ did many miraculous things in plain sight and still most did not believe in Him, I see no reason to think it would be any different today. 

Most of the other issues in this thread could be handled by a solid grasp of the meta-narrative of scripture, but that's asking a lot I know.


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## bullethead (Jan 17, 2014)

jmharris23 said:


> I know the bible really doesn't mean squat to those in this forum, and I understand that, but it does speak to these issues at hand.
> 
> According to the bible, Christ did many miraculous things in plain sight and still most did not believe in Him, I see no reason to think it would be any different today.
> 
> Most of the other issues in this thread could be handled by a solid grasp of the meta-narrative of scripture, but that's asking a lot I know.



What would be some reasons for being witness to miracles and not believing them much less not recording them?


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## BT Charlie (Jan 17, 2014)

To the OP, and NC Hillbilly, I think I feel your desire to see a big move of God...a bonafide miracle.  Moving the mountain.  Then you'd believe.  Just a sign like that.

Muhammad was rejected in part due to his lack of performing miracles.

As JMHarris and others say and imply, the Bible speaks to this.  

My concern is that it also speaks to a time to come when many will be deceived by false signs and wonders.  I fear for those who like you are building up an expectation of such exhibition of power.  We are warned that  the enemy is going to do some stuff that may just
convince you he's the one.  Without the Bible, you will have no standard of truth to test the validity of such occurrences.

I get that if the Bible is first base, there's no sense talking about possible plays at home plate.  Still, tuck this away in case stuff happens and you have time to ponder.  You may be able to tag first and make your run for your real home.

Blessings.


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## jmharris23 (Jan 17, 2014)

bullethead said:


> What would be some reasons for being witness to miracles and not believing them much less not recording them?



Bullet, the only reasons I can give you are biblical ones,and I'm not sure that's helpful or desired? 

That said, I can give them, if you're interested.


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## bullethead (Jan 17, 2014)

jmharris23 said:


> Bullet, the only reasons I can give you are biblical ones,and I'm not sure that's helpful or desired?
> 
> That said, I can give them, if you're interested.



Yeah, I really am interested in your opinion on the subject.


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## jmharris23 (Jan 18, 2014)

bullethead said:


> Yeah, I really am interested in your opinion on the subject.



Biblically we're given several examples of the refusal of the masses to believe in the miracles of Christ.

One example is Matt 12:22-32

In this passage the crowds accuse Jesus power of being from the devil, or simply they refused to believe that he was who he said he was. 

Another is Mark 6:1-3 

In this passage the power and authority of Jesus is questioned and the statement is made that he just the son of a carpenter, a nobody really, and it says they took offense at him. 

John 12:37-43

Again you can see here that those who had witnessed Jesus's miracles refused to believe. 


I think this refusal or "hardening of heart" would be the clear biblical reason on why there were many who simply chose not to believe in what they were seeing, or chose to write it off as something else. 

If they didn't believe, then they probably wouldn't have made record of it. 

Some of this refusal is also based in Jewish history, in the sense, that Christ claimed to be the Messiah, but he was not the Messiah that the average Jew was looking for and therefore they wrote him off as a fraud, and ultimately killed him for it. 


Anyway, this is simply my biblically based answer and I am aware that it's not sufficient for you, but thanks for listening


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## Terminal Idiot (Jan 18, 2014)

@ jmharris... He asked what reasons people wouldn't believe. You gave examples of people not believing. 

Meaning, if someone was before you saying they were the son of god and they were performing miracles before your eyes... Why wouldn't you believe? If it was truly miraculous, surely you wouldn't deny it just because the performer of miracles didn't come in the shell you were expecting?


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## Terminal Idiot (Jan 18, 2014)

Just so we are clear on what miracles we are talking about:
http://www.jesus.org/life-of-jesus/miracles/what-miracles-did-jesus-perform.html 

Jesus raised people from the dead. He cured the blind. He cured a guy of dropsy. What the heck is dropsy? Sounds like what I get after an evening at Taco Bell.

How or why would you ignore a person being raised from the dead?


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## drippin' rock (Jan 18, 2014)

Terminal Idiot said:


> Just so we are clear on what miracles we are talking about:
> http://www.jesus.org/life-of-jesus/miracles/what-miracles-did-jesus-perform.html
> 
> Jesus raised people from the dead. He cured the blind. He cured a guy of dropsy. What the heck is dropsy? Sounds like what I get after an evening at Taco Bell.
> ...



One guess would be it didn't really happen, and having naysayers in the story is a good way to sweeten the claim?


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## GunnSmokeer (Jan 18, 2014)

*irrelevant*

That some people would refuse to believe a real miracle is irrelevant.  A lot of people would believe. Especially if it's a big miracle that cannot be explained as luck or an application of the laws of nature and science.

Jesus worked big miracles and that was part of the reason his teachings were respected and his prophesy believed by many.  If he were "just" another Jewish carpenter who was good at remembering scripture and had a different approach to interpreting the Law, he would have had fewer followers and ultimately his sect of Judaism would not have flourished.

Why were miracles useful back then, but apparently not a legitimate tool to convince people today?


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## HawgJawl (Jan 18, 2014)

jmharris23 said:


> I know the bible really doesn't mean squat to those in this forum, and I understand that, but it does speak to these issues at hand.
> 
> According to the bible, Christ did many miraculous things in plain sight and still most did not believe in Him, I see no reason to think it would be any different today.
> 
> Most of the other issues in this thread could be handled by a solid grasp of the meta-narrative of scripture, but that's asking a lot I know.



JM,
Do you believe that God knew what the response would be to the miracles or do you think God was surprised at the response and learned that it didn't work as expected and decided not to try that method again?

If God knew what the response would be and with that knowledge, decided to perform miracles during that time, then expectation of some people not accepting the miracles today would not be a reason to not perform miracles today any more than it was then.


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## bullethead (Jan 18, 2014)

jmharris23 said:


> Biblically we're given several examples of the refusal of the masses to believe in the miracles of Christ.
> 
> One example is Matt 12:22-32
> 
> ...



Here is why the Jews did not believe then and still do not believe.


http://www.aish.com/jw/s/48892792.html

Why Jews Don't Believe In Jesus
For 2,000 years Jews have rejected the Christian idea of Jesus as messiah. Why?
by Rabbi Shraga Simmons

with thanks to Rabbi Michael Skobac, Jews for Judaism

One of the most common questions we receive at Aish.com is: "Why don't Jews believe in Jesus?" Let's understand why ― not in order to disparage other religions, but rather to clarify the Jewish position.

Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because:

    Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.
    Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah.
    Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations.
    Jewish belief is based on national revelation.

But first, some background: What exactly is the Messiah?

The word "Messiah" is an English rendering of the Hebrew word Mashiach, which means "anointed." It usually refers to a person initiated into God's service by being anointed with oil. (Exodus 29:7, 1-Kings 1:39, 2-Kings 9:3)

1. Jesus Did Not Fulfill the Messianic Prophecies

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? One of the central themes of biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of God. (Isaiah 2:1-4, 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34)

Specifically, the Bible says he will:

    Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
    Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
    Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
    Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world ― on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be the Messiah.

Because no one has ever fulfilled the Bible's description of this future King, Jews still await the coming of the Messiah. All past Messianic claimants, including Jesus of Nazareth, Bar Cochba and Shabbtai Tzvi have been rejected.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming. Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright; in the Bible no concept of a second coming exists.

____________________

2) Jesus Did Not Embody the Personal Qualifications of Messiah

A. Messiah as Prophet

The Messiah will become the greatest prophet in history, second only to Moses. (Targum - Isaiah 11:2; Maimonides - Yad Teshuva 9:2)

Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry, a situation which has not existed since 300 BCE. During the time of Ezra, when the majority of Jews remained in Babylon, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets ― Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.

Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended, and thus could not be a prophet.

B. Descendent of David

Many prophetic passages speak of a descendant of King David who will rule Israel during the age of perfection. (Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 30:7-10, 33:14-16; Ezekiel 34:11-31, 37:21-28; Hosea 3:4-5)

The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10, Isaiah 11:1, Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father ― and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David. (1)

According to Jewish sources, the Messiah will be born of human parents and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, (2) nor will he possess supernatural qualities.

C. Torah Observance

The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He does not observe Shabbat!"

____________________

3) Mistranslated Verses "Referring" to Jesus

Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text ― which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.

A. Virgin Birth

The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

B. Suffering Servant

Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the "suffering servant."

In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. Throughout Jewish scripture, Israel is repeatedly called, in the singular, the "Servant of God" (see Isaiah 43:8). In fact, Isaiah states no less than 11 times in the chapters prior to 53 that the Servant of God is Israel.

When read correctly, Isaiah 53 clearly [and ironically] refers to the Jewish people being "bruised, crushed and as sheep brought to slaughter" at the hands of the nations of the world. These descriptions are used throughout Jewish scripture to graphically describe the suffering of the Jewish people (see Psalm 44).

Isaiah 53 concludes that when the Jewish people are redeemed, the nations will recognize and accept responsibility for the inordinate suffering and death of the Jews.

______________________

4) Jewish Belief is Based Solely on National Revelation

Throughout history, thousands of religions have been started by individuals, attempting to convince people that he or she is God's true prophet. But personal revelation is an extremely weak basis for a religion because one can never know if it is indeed true. Since others did not hear God speak to this person, they have to take his word for it. Even if the individual claiming personal revelation performs miracles, they do not prove  he is a genuine prophet. All the miracles show ― assuming they are genuine ― is that he has certain powers. It has nothing to do with his claim of prophecy.

Judaism, unique among all of the world's major religions, does not rely on "claims of miracles" as the basis for its religion. In fact, the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of "miracles" to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah (Deut. 13:4).

Of the thousands of religions in human history, only Judaism bases its belief on national revelation ― i.e. God speaking to the entire nation. If God is going to start a religion, it makes sense He'll tell everyone, not just one person.

Maimonides states (Foundations of Torah, ch. 8):

    The Jews did not believe in Moses, our teacher, because of the miracles he performed. Whenever anyone's belief is based on seeing miracles, he has lingering doubts, because it is possible the miracles were performed through magic or sorcery. All of the miracles performed by Moses in the desert were because they were necessary, and not as proof of his prophecy.

    What then was the basis of [Jewish] belief? The Revelation at Mount Sinai, which we saw with our own eyes and heard with our own ears, not dependent on the testimony of others... as it says, "Face to face, God spoke with you..." The Torah also states: "God did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us ― who are all here alive today." (Deut. 5:3)

Judaism is not miracles. It is the personal eyewitness experience of every man, woman and child, standing at Mount Sinai 3,300 years ago.

Waiting for the Messiah

The world is in desperate need of Messianic redemption. To the extent that we are aware of the problems of society, is the extent we will yearn for redemption. As the Talmud says, one of the first questions asked of a Jew on Judgment Day is: "Did you yearn for the arrival of the Messiah?"

How can we hasten the coming of the Messiah? The best way is to love all humanity generously, to keep the mitzvot of the Torah (as best we can), and to encourage others to do so as well.

Despite the gloom, the world does seem headed toward redemption. One apparent sign is that the Jewish people have returned to the Land of Israel and made it bloom again. Additionally, a major movement is afoot of young Jews returning to Torah tradition.

The Messiah can come any day, and it all depends on our actions. God is ready when we are. For as King David says: "Redemption will come today ― if you hearken to His voice."


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## bullethead (Jan 18, 2014)

Even more insight..

http://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2011/02/20/why-jews-dont-believe-in-jesus/


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## bullethead (Jan 18, 2014)

I have to wonder who was responsible for all of the other recorded miracles in the Bible before Jesus, and who is responsible for all the miracles outside of the Bible that is recorded in history...both before and after Jesus and in other religions?

http://www.patheos.com/Resources/Additional-Resources/Miracles-Long-before-Jesus.html


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## bullethead (Jan 18, 2014)

from( which is worth a click to check the entire link out): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle

Individuals who are claimed to have performed miracles include:

    Aharon Rokeach
    Apollonius of Tyana
    Asenath Barzani
    Audrey Marie Santo
    Baal Shem of London
    Baal Shem Tov
    Baba Sali
    Buddha
    Chaim Elazar Spira
    Chaim Zanvl Abramowitz
    Elijah
    Ephraim Alnaqua
    Escrava Anastacia
    Gajanan Maharaj
    Jacob Cochran
    Jesus of Nazareth
    Joseph ben Abraham Gikatilla
    Joseph of Cupertino
    Maiden of Ludmir
    Moses
    Moses Botarel
    Muhammad



    Nathan Adler
    Rabbi Meir
    Raghavendra Swami
    Ramakrishna
    Rav Jonah
    Sabbas the Sanctified
    Sabbatai Zevi
    Sai Baba of Shirdi
    Samson
    Sathya Sai Baba
    Sarkar Waris Pak
    Shalom Sharabi
    Shmelke of Nikolsburg
    Shimon bar Yochai
    Shri Swami Samarth
    Vespasian
    Yeshayah Steiner
    Yissachar Dov Rokeach (I)
    Yitzchak Kaduri


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## jmharris23 (Jan 21, 2014)

Terminal Idiot said:


> @ jmharris... He asked what reasons people wouldn't believe. You gave examples of people not believing.
> 
> Meaning, if someone was before you saying they were the son of god and they were performing miracles before your eyes... Why wouldn't you believe? If it was truly miraculous, surely you wouldn't deny it just because the performer of miracles didn't come in the shell you were expecting?



No I answered his question. In the biblical accounts the reason they did not believe is because they refused to believe.


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## jmharris23 (Jan 21, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> JM,
> Do you believe that God knew what the response would be to the miracles or do you think God was surprised at the response and learned that it didn't work as expected and decided not to try that method again?
> 
> If God knew what the response would be and with that knowledge, decided to perform miracles during that time, then expectation of some people not accepting the miracles today would not be a reason to not perform miracles today any more than it was then.



I believe he knew exactly what the response would be.


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## HawgJawl (Jan 21, 2014)

jmharris23 said:


> I believe he knew exactly what the response would be.



For whatever reason, God chose to openly and publicly perform miracles in his interaction with man back then, knowing that many would not accept the miracles.

What do you think changed in regard to including miracles performed openly and publicly in God's interaction with man today, other than people not accepting them because that was the case then also so that has not changed.


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## bullethead (Jan 21, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> For whatever reason, God chose to openly and publicly perform miracles in his interaction with man back then, knowing that many would not accept the miracles.
> 
> What do you think changed in regard to including miracles performed openly and publicly in God's interaction with man today, other than people not accepting them because that was the case then also so that has not changed.



With the population of Earth being about 300-400 Million people 2000 years ago and much less than that 5000 years ago wouldn't an appearance of God and his miracles reach more people today where it would seem even more people need him?
Does God know that he will not be believed?
Is he capable of performing believable miracles?
Is there a God that cares?
Is there a God?


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## jmharris23 (Jan 21, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> For whatever reason, God chose to openly and publicly perform miracles in his interaction with man back then, knowing that many would not accept the miracles.
> 
> What do you think changed in regard to including miracles performed openly and publicly in God's interaction with man today, other than people not accepting them because that was the case then also so that has not changed.





bullethead said:


> With the population of Earth being about 300-400 Million people 2000 years ago and much less than that 5000 years ago wouldn't an appearance of God and his miracles reach more people today where it would seem even more people need him?
> Does God know that he will not be believed?
> Is he capable of performing believable miracles?
> Is there a God that cares?
> Is there a God?




I could provide an answer to these questions, but then ya'll would just flame me for being an ignorant and simple minded bible thumper and we would all be back to square one.


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## bullethead (Jan 21, 2014)

jmharris23 said:


> I could provide an answer to these questions, but then ya'll would just flame me for being an ignorant and simple minded bible thumper and we would all be back to square one.



I know better than to flame anyone for being simple minded but the fact that you didn't just come right out and post your reply leads me to believe that you know your answer might not hold up to the scrutiny.
I'd be glad to hear it though.


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## jmharris23 (Jan 21, 2014)

bullethead said:


> I know better than to flame anyone for being simple minded but the fact that you didn't just come right out and post your reply leads me to believe that you know your answer might not hold up to the scrutiny.
> I'd be glad to hear it though.



I was cutting up on the flaming part, don't take me so seriously. 

That said you are dead right it won't hold up to scrutiny. 

I am a Christian by faith, not by facts. By that, I don't mean that I don't have a reason for my beliefs. 

I believe that Christ was a real historical person, and that the bible is a valid testimony of his life. 

Skeptics are skeptics, believers are believers. I am one, you are the other. You absolutely can pick me apart and ask questions I cannot answer. 

There are some things I just believe based on what I can know. 

I assume that's why it's called the Christian faith?


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## bullethead (Jan 21, 2014)

jmharris23 said:


> I was cutting up on the flaming part, don't take me so seriously.
> 
> That said you are dead right it won't hold up to scrutiny.
> 
> ...



I respect anyone that can admit that.

I ask anyone that leaps from faith to facts or that makes assertive statements to imply truth to backup what they claim.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 21, 2014)

> Originally Posted by jmharris23 View Post
> I was cutting up on the flaming part, don't take me so seriously.
> That said you are dead right it won't hold up to scrutiny.
> I am a Christian by faith, not by facts. By that, I don't mean that I don't have a reason for my beliefs.
> ...





bullethead said:


> I respect anyone that can admit that.
> I ask anyone that leaps from faith to facts or that makes assertive statements to imply truth to backup what they claim.


I agree with Bullet. If all Christians said that all we would hear in this particular forum would be crickets chirping. And based on this -


> you are dead right it won't hold up to scrutiny.





> Christian by faith, not by facts.





> You absolutely can pick me apart and ask questions I cannot answer.


Isnt it a reasonable position that for all those reasons stated above that Christianity shouldn't be taught/forced on kids in public schools and no laws should exist based on those beliefs and that it has no place in our Government?
It seems like this -


> Christian by faith, not by facts.


Comes to a screeching halt and is then called an "attack on Christianity" by most Christians when it is treated as faith, not facts by others.


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## jmharris23 (Jan 22, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> Isn't it a reasonable position that for all those reasons stated above that Christianity shouldn't be taught/forced on kids in public schools and no laws should exist based on those beliefs and that it has no place in our Government?




I don't think that Christianity is taught or forced on kids in public school?

As far as laws I'm am not sure what you mean? 

For example, is the law against murder based on the 10 commandments or common sense?

If it is based on the 10 commandments, do you have a problem with that? 


As an overall answer, yes I am fine with Christianity not being forced on anyone. As long as no other religion is forced, and as long as those who practice the Christian faith are given the same freedoms as everyone else.


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## HawgJawl (Jan 22, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> For whatever reason, God chose to openly and publicly perform miracles in his interaction with man back then, knowing that many would not accept the miracles.
> 
> What do you think changed in regard to including miracles performed openly and publicly in God's interaction with man today, other than people not accepting them because that was the case then also so that has not changed.





jmharris23 said:


> I could provide an answer to these questions, but then ya'll would just flame me for being an ignorant and simple minded bible thumper and we would all be back to square one.



The reason I asked the question is that I have heard several other people say that there is no reason for God to perform miracles today because people today would still refuse to believe.  That reason doesn't make sense to me because God deemed it appropriate at one time in the past under pretty much the same circumstances.  I was just wondering if you had any additional thoughts on it.


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## jmharris23 (Jan 22, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> The reason I asked the question is that I have heard several other people say that there is no reason for God to perform miracles today because people today would still refuse to believe.  That reason doesn't make sense to me because God deemed it appropriate at one time in the past under pretty much the same circumstances.  I was just wondering if you had any additional thoughts on it.




The miracles recorded in Scripture are miracles of faith and belief. 

Faith precedes the miraculous. 

In Matthew 13:58 the bible even teaches that Jesus' willingness to do miraculous works was hindered by their unbelief. 

It didn't say he could not do it, just that due to their unbelief he chose not to.


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## HawgJawl (Jan 22, 2014)

jmharris23 said:


> The miracles recorded in Scripture are miracles of faith and belief.
> 
> Faith precedes the miraculous.
> 
> ...



Just trying to understand.

Are you saying that God performed miracles only when someone had enough faith and belief, and that is what has changed today.  No one today has enough faith and belief.


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## jmharris23 (Jan 22, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> Just trying to understand.
> 
> Are you saying that God performed miracles only when someone had enough faith and belief, and that is what has changed today.  No one today has enough faith and belief.



Yes I am saying that Christ performed miracles in response to people's faith and belief. 

No I am not saying no one has enough faith. I am saying very few have enough faith, especially in 1st world countries where we are highly educated and rely on ourselves and our own abilities. 

I believe God still performs miracles, but more so I believe that he has revealed himself through Christ and the written word.


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## 04ctd (Jan 22, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> Just trying to understand.
> 
> Are you saying that God performed miracles only when someone had enough faith and belief, and that is what has changed today.  No one today has enough faith and belief.



I may not have made myself clear..so I will repeat...

when our Church & Pastor & Deacons & Congregation were all in one accord & glorifying and honoring God....we had Miracles happen ALL THE TIME.
(healing, finances, security, joy)

a $750k building was GIVEN TO US...and we paid off the balance (landscaping, interior) in ~4 years.

now, we have a different pastor, the joy &  peace & unity and awesome LOVE are gone and ...NOTHING...

so YES miracles do happen when people are ________
(you can fill in the blank from your own experience)


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## HawgJawl (Jan 22, 2014)

04ctd said:


> I may not have made myself clear..so I will repeat...
> 
> when our Church & Pastor & Deacons & Congregation were all in one accord & glorifying and honoring God....we had Miracles happen ALL THE TIME.
> (healing, finances, security, joy)
> ...



The OP is referring more to the type of miracles that no other religion can claim and are clearly the work of the God of Abraham.


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## 04ctd (Jan 22, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> The OP is referring more to the type of miracles that no other religion can claim and are clearly the work of the God of Abraham.



ok, well that is who we prayed to...and He answered...i don't know what else to tell you

"get your heart right...get miracles"
that seems to be the theme of most churches/people.
I know I see that pattern in my life when  ______


FWIW, I made up a new acronym for you guys to debate:
"BSAB"
this is kind of like OSAS, but it relates to a lot people:
"Barely Saved, Always Back-sliding"


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## Terminal Idiot (Jan 22, 2014)

jmharris23 said:


> No I answered his question. In the biblical accounts the reason they did not believe is because they refused to believe.



Wait...what?

Wow.

Why did they refuse to believe?


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## bullethead (Jan 22, 2014)

Terminal Idiot said:


> Wait...what?
> 
> Wow.
> 
> Why did they refuse to believe?



One possibility is that the miracles did not happen during the initial happenings but were added later. Simple occurrences then were embellished orally for years and magnified even further to the authors taste when it was finally penned.

Or another possibility is that there were so many Gods performing so many miracles that the people thought many attempts at miracles were lacking in wow factor.

Yet another possibility is that the New Testament stuff happened in a way that was less than spectacular but was written decades later in order to try to fulfill Old Testament prophesy.
Like here:
http://noahide-ancient-path.co.uk/i...-jewish-tanach-old-testament-in-his-writings/


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## jmharris23 (Jan 22, 2014)

Terminal Idiot said:


> Wait...what?
> 
> Wow.
> 
> Why did they refuse to believe?



I don't know why they refused it believe? I just know the bible says they refused to believe.


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## 660griz (Jan 23, 2014)

04ctd said:


> ok, well that is who we prayed to...and He answered...i don't know what else to tell you



Works the same with rocks or just having a positive attitude. 
The great thing about rocks and attitude, no threat of he!!. You do have to deal with just being dead though.


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## HawgJawl (Jan 23, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> The OP is referring more to the type of miracles that no other religion can claim and are clearly the work of the God of Abraham.





04ctd said:


> ok, well that is who we prayed to...and He answered...i don't know what else to tell you
> 
> "get your heart right...get miracles"
> that seems to be the theme of most churches/people.
> ...




Lets narrow our definition of miracles, that no other religion can claim and clearly the work of the God of Abraham, to proclaimed exhibitions such as the ones described in the following scriptures.
1 Kings 18:20-40
2 Kings 1:8-13


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## 04ctd (Jan 23, 2014)

660griz said:


> You do have to deal with _just being dead_ though.



you got me on that one, i was laughing out loud as I imagined your dead-pan delivery!

HJ, i don't know what to tell you, brother,

all i have is the Bible and my personal experiences,
we can argue about the Bible, but we can't hardly argue with that big pretty building being donated, and standing there free & clear of a lien a few years later.  that's God almighty at work.


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## Ridge Walker (Jan 23, 2014)

04ctd said:


> you got me on that one, i was laughing out loud as I imagined your dead-pan delivery!
> 
> HJ, i don't know what to tell you, brother,
> 
> ...



Sounds more like that is a generous person at work.


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## HawgJawl (Jan 23, 2014)

04ctd said:


> HJ, i don't know what to tell you, brother,
> 
> all i have is the Bible and my personal experiences,
> we can argue about the Bible, but we can't hardly argue with that big pretty building being donated, and standing there free & clear of a lien a few years later.  that's God almighty at work.



If any other religion ever had a building donated to it, would you accept that as proof that their god did it?


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## 04ctd (Jan 23, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> If any other religion ever had a building donated to it, would you accept that as proof that their god did it?



Not if they did not have other spiritual gifts & testimonies of miracles to go with it: healing, love, joy, peace, contentment, unity, love, joy....

but, i think you have to reason out (have faith?) about some things by yourself:

Philippians 2:12 
....but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

you could take that verse to say that God ain't gonna come back and move a mountain, that we got the Bible in God's absence, and the accounts in it, and we gotta figure out what & who to believe.

Luke 16:29-31
29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 
30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 
31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”


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## HawgJawl (Jan 23, 2014)

04ctd said:


> Not if they did not have other spiritual gifts & testimonies of miracles to go with it: healing, love, joy, peace, contentment, unity, love, joy....



So if I can show you another religion that has things donated to it plus it has members who testify about miraculous healings and who feel love, joy, contentment, unity, etc., will you believe that their god is real?


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## drippin' rock (Jan 23, 2014)

04ctd said:


> Not if they did not have other spiritual gifts & testimonies of miracles to go with it: healing, love, joy, peace, contentment, unity, love, joy....
> 
> but, i think you have to reason out (have faith?) about some things by yourself:
> Philippians 2:12
> ...



I do reason for myself.  That is why I agree with nothing you have said.


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## Terminal Idiot (Jan 23, 2014)

04ctd said:


> but we can't hardly argue with that big pretty building being donated, and standing there free & clear of a lien a few years later.  that's God almighty at work.



Help me understand. So, if god got you the building, does that rule out free will? Did the person that gave the building have a choice in the matter? Or did god have a sit down with someone and convince them? I have the same deal with my car and truck. Someone gave me something I couldn't afford, the I paid for them for a few years, then they are mine free and clear. God?

Also, if god saw fit to get you in a building, should the millions of Jews be upset that god let Hitler run amuck killing their friends and family? Seems odd. You get a building and they get dead relatives. Your story is that god is intervening, is it not? Interesting the scenarios he chooses to stay clear of. Children with cancer. Wives that get beaten by their husbands. Tornadoes that wipe out entire towns. But you get your building.


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## ambush80 (Jan 23, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> If any other religion ever had a building donated to it, would you accept that as proof that their god did it?



Reminds me of a Christmas eve where there were multiple break ins in our neighborhood.  My father thanked god (of Abraham) for placing a "hedge of protection" around us......but not our god fearing neighbors.


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## GunnSmokeer (Jan 24, 2014)

*miracle*

My idea of God building a Church through a miracle would be a big booming voice from the sky that every human being heard (all in their native language, by the way) that said:

"I have decided that there are not enough believers in the area of _____________ (some city).  Today there is a 50-acre vacant lot located on the 5000 block of (name the street).  Tomorrow there will be a church there, fully built and ready for 500 persons to use daily.  If I build it, you better come."

"P.S.  Anybody who tries to watch the Super Bowl without having attended services at some house of worship that Sunday will find that their electronic viewing device will develop mysterious problems for the duration of the game."


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## mtnwoman (Jan 25, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> A life transformed by the counseling of a psychiatrist is a miraculous example of what?



A $35 copay? Let's see....$145 a pop if only 10 victims a week is $1450......yeah we can go to Ruby Tuesdays twice a week and Mcdonalds everyday.....


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## mtnwoman (Jan 25, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> Reminds me of a Christmas eve where there were multiple break ins in our neighborhood.  My father thanked god (of Abraham) for placing a "hedge of protection" around us......but not our god fearing neighbors.



Glad I never live in a hood like that....guess I was blessed....poor but blessed.


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