# Man's Justice vs God's Justice



## atlashunter (Mar 17, 2011)

Seems our conception of justice is very different from God's. Every society I am aware of has judged its members according to their actions. You murder or steal you are punished for it. And most people think the punishment should fit the crime. You don't give out the same punishment for murder as you would for shoplifting. There are even different levels of severity within the same crime. Someone who strangles a child is going to get a harsher sentence than someone who accidentally ran over a child due to negligence. Even though the outcome was the same (dead child) we take intent into account. And last but not least we don't provide a get out of jail free card on the basis of what the perpetrator believes.

For the God of the Bible it's different. There are rules and if you break any of them there is a punishment but the punishment is the same for all of them. The lie you told may have been a finite act but the punishment is eternal and the same for the good non-believer as it is for the worst of humanity. But there is a loophole to get you out of your predicament. Even though you deserve the same eternal fire as the worst human that has ever lived, you can get out of it as can they by believing the right thing.

Whatever you believe, these are two very different concepts of justice. My question is, if God's is superior to ours should we not adjust ours to match his as closely as possible and structure our justice system accordingly?


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## ambush80 (Mar 17, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Seems our conception of justice is very different from God's. Every society I am aware of has judged its members according to their actions. You murder or steal you are punished for it. And most people think the punishment should fit the crime. You don't give out the same punishment for murder as you would for shoplifting. There are even different levels of severity within the same crime. Someone who strangles a child is going to get a harsher sentence than someone who accidentally ran over a child due to negligence. Even though the outcome was the same (dead child) we take intent into account. And last but not least we don't provide a get out of jail free card on the basis of what the perpetrator believes.
> 
> For the God of the Bible it's different. There are rules and if you break any of them there is a punishment but the punishment is the same for all of them. The lie you told may have been a finite act but the punishment is eternal and the same for the good non-believer as it is for the worst of humanity. But there is a loophole to get you out of your predicament. Even though you deserve the same eternal fire as the worst human that has ever lived, you can get out of it as can they by believing the right thing.
> 
> Whatever you believe, these are two very different concepts of justice. My question is, if God's is superior to ours should we not adjust ours to match his as closely as possible and structure our justice system accordingly?



His ways are not our ways.  Do as he says not as he does.


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## vowell462 (Mar 18, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Seems our conception of justice is very different from God's. Every society I am aware of has judged its members according to their actions. You murder or steal you are punished for it. And most people think the punishment should fit the crime. You don't give out the same punishment for murder as you would for shoplifting. There are even different levels of severity within the same crime. Someone who strangles a child is going to get a harsher sentence than someone who accidentally ran over a child due to negligence. Even though the outcome was the same (dead child) we take intent into account. And last but not least we don't provide a get out of jail free card on the basis of what the perpetrator believes.
> 
> For the God of the Bible it's different. There are rules and if you break any of them there is a punishment but the punishment is the same for all of them. The lie you told may have been a finite act but the punishment is eternal and the same for the good non-believer as it is for the worst of humanity. But there is a loophole to get you out of your predicament. Even though you deserve the same eternal fire as the worst human that has ever lived, you can get out of it as can they by believing the right thing.
> 
> Whatever you believe, these are two very different concepts of justice. My question is, if God's is superior to ours should we not adjust ours to match his as closely as possible and structure our justice system accordingly?



This is another great analogy that makes me doubt the reasonability of the bible.


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## ted_BSR (Mar 19, 2011)

I thought you were learned in the message of the Bible? I realize you don't believe it, but I am confused by your comparison here. If you had studied it, you would know how God sacrificed His Son, Himself, to save us from the justice we deserve. 

His Grace offers salvation from what we deserve. He sets aside justice for all who accept salvation.

Maybe you should read it again.


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## ambush80 (Mar 19, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> I thought you were learned in the message of the Bible? I realize you don't believe it, but I am confused by your comparison here. If you had studied it, you would know how God sacrificed His Son, Himself, to save us from the justice we deserve.
> 
> His Grace offers salvation from what we deserve. He sets aside justice for all who accept salvation.
> 
> Maybe you should read it again.




Lost me right there.  I've never known of such a thing.


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## atlashunter (Mar 19, 2011)

Ted, that's the loophole I described. Not sure what you are disagreeing with. Care to answer the question?


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## stringmusic (Mar 19, 2011)

No, humans would screw it up.


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## ted_BSR (Mar 20, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Ted, that's the loophole I described. Not sure what you are disagreeing with. Care to answer the question?



I'll take a stab at it. Justice is how men think. Grace is how God thinks (love, redemption, saving us from justice).

Your question is moot, because we, men, are not capable of the Grace that God has offered to us. We need justice to be served. God does not.


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## atlashunter (Mar 20, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> No, humans would screw it up.



We attempt to hold to God's values in every other arena of life even though we know we will fall far short. Why should it be different with this one? His idea of justice is clearly very different from our own. If it is true that his is superior to ours then why not at least make an effort to bring ours more in line with his?


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## atlashunter (Mar 20, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> I'll take a stab at it. Justice is how men think. Grace is how God thinks (love, redemption, saving us from justice).



That's interesting because I've always been told that God is a just God and that there will one day be a judgment day. It sounds like you are saying God sets aside justice in favor of saving us from it out of love. I don't think you are saying that it isn't justice if we get sent to eternal burning. So just in terms of crime and punishment my point stands that our concept of justice in terms of different levels of criminal severity and proportionality of crime to punishment is very different than his. Why should we not adopt the same guiding principles that any crime is as bad as the other and will be punished equally? Wouldn't that be more just?

It's a curious idea that you can be redeemed with a scapegoat but leaving that aside if the way to go is to set justice aside out of love should we not also make a practice of that? Or to let the innocent pay for the crimes of the guilty should we do that? Suppose a man commits a murder but his mother out of love for her son offered her own life as payment for his crime. Should we permit that and then say that her son is redeemed and washed clean of his crime? Would that be justice? Or grace? If not justice but grace why not follow God's lead?


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## CAL (Mar 20, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Whatever you believe, these are two very different concepts of justice. My question is, if God's is superior to ours should we not adjust ours to match his as closely as possible and structure our justice system accordingly?




atlas,I think there is a difference between the two.True,God is superior in everything.God can look into a persons soul and see if they are really sorry for their actions or are they misrepresenting the whole matter.Man cannot hard as we try,that's why our system is called "blind justice".

Also,I believe we will answer for our tribulations even if God forgives us.I think this is what the Bible means when it talks about standing before the Lord.


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## Achilles Return (Mar 20, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> I'll take a stab at it. Justice is how men think. Grace is how God thinks (love, redemption, saving us from justice).
> 
> Your question is moot, because we, men, are not capable of the Grace that God has offered to us. We need justice to be served. God does not.



Then why the human sacrifice? If does not need justice to be served, why have a Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- at all? 

Remember, this is the same guy that had a couple bears maul 42 kids for calling a guy bald and killed another guy for catching the ark of the covenant when it was tipping over.

What you're saying and what's in plain sight are two opposite meanings. Which is it?


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## ted_BSR (Mar 20, 2011)

Achilles Return said:


> Then why the human sacrifice? If does not need justice to be served, why have a Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- at all?
> 
> Remember, this is the same guy that had a couple bears maul 42 kids for calling a guy bald and killed another guy for catching the ark of the covenant when it was tipping over.
> 
> What you're saying and what's in plain sight are two opposite meanings. Which is it?



Those are old testament examples, the old covenant.

You don't believe the bible anyway, so why do you cite it?

Or do you just believe the parts that you want to twist to support your position?


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2011)

ted, we have to use the bible to express our meaning sometimes whether we believe it or not. It is ALL the believers use when in discussions with non-believers because that stuff exists nowhere else outside of the bible.
When facts and common sense are not enough to get "our" points across, then we have to use the only source the other point of view understands.
I think a better question is: Why do believers use the verses in the bible that support their claims, yet tip toe around the scripture that directly counters it? Just the "good" parts are shared and the parts that show murder, slavery, rape, incest, human sacrifice  and tall tales are never used to promote the bible.
Which parts of the Old Testament do not count?


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## CAL (Mar 20, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Just the "good" parts are shared and the parts that show murder, slavery, rape, incest, human sacrifice  and tall tales are never used to promote the bible.
> Which parts of the Old Testament do not count?



Would be interested to know where in the Bible our God supports the above.I have read some of the above but not supported by God.Please show me!


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## atlashunter (Mar 20, 2011)

CAL said:


> atlas,I think there is a difference between the two.True,God is superior in everything.God can look into a persons soul and see if they are really sorry for their actions or are they misrepresenting the whole matter.Man cannot hard as we try,that's why our system is called "blind justice".
> 
> Also,I believe we will answer for our tribulations even if God forgives us.I think this is what the Bible means when it talks about standing before the Lord.



If his concept to justice is superior to ours then why would we want to cling to ours? Not saying we could be as good at carrying out the principles that exemplify his sense of justice but should we at least adopt and apply those principles in our justice system instead of our own?

Just a fyi, blind justice refers to neutrality in its dispensation.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2011)

CAL said:


> Would be interested to know where in the Bible our God supports the above.I have read some of the above but not supported by God.Please show me!



However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you.  You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land.  You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance.  You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.  (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years.  Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom.  If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year.  But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him.  If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master.  But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children.  I would rather not go free.'  If he does this, his master must present him before God.  Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl.  After that, the slave will belong to his master forever.  (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

    When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.  If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.  But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.  And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter.  If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife.  If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.  (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

  When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished.  If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.  (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

But heck, that is that outdated Old Testament stuff. Here's some from the New testament:

 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear.  Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.  (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

    Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed.  If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful.  You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts.  Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them.  (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2011)

CAL said:


> Would be interested to know where in the Bible our God supports the above.I have read some of the above but not supported by God.Please show me!



 As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace.  If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor.  But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town.  When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town.  But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder.  You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father.  Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house.  But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb.  After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife.  However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion." (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)


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## ted_BSR (Mar 20, 2011)

bullethead said:


> ted, we have to use the bible to express our meaning sometimes whether we believe it or not. This statement really makes me laugh, when I try to point out that science is fallabile using science, I am scoffed at and made fun of. They call me "Mr. Scientist", and say I don't know what I am talking about. The funny part is, I believe in science, as science describes itself. Most others think of it incorrectly  It is ALL the believers use when in discussions with non-believers I'll give you a "most of the time", but not exclusivelybecause that stuff exists nowhere else outside of the bible.
> When facts and common sense are not enough to get "our" points across, then we have to use the only source the other point of view understands.
> I think a better question is: Why do believers use the verses in the bible that support their claims, yet tip toe around the scripture that directly counters it? Share some of these counters with me. I for one do not believe that the Bible ever contradicts itself.Just the "good" parts are shared and the parts that show murder, slavery, rape, incest, human sacrifice  and tall tales are never used to promote the bible.These things existed, the Bible reports them, where does it advocate them?
> Which parts of the Old Testament do not count?They all count, but the old Covenant has been replaced with the new Covenant.



Responses in Red.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2011)

CAL said:


> Would be interested to know where in the Bible our God supports the above.I have read some of the above but not supported by God.Please show me!



Commandment #6: Thou Shalt Not Kill;
Yet in both Old and New testaments the Bible is LOADED with murders. Quite a few by the big Guy Himself.
I guess it is OK to kill in the name of the Lord???

  Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death.  Such evil must be purged from Israel.  (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

 They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.  (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him.  Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you.  You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery.  And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst.  (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

  For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites.  You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment.  They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it.  Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again.  Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.'  (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)

The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever.  It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy.  Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy.  Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community.  Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest.  I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.'  (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!"  But the man refused to strike the prophet.  Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me."  And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him.  (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)

The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived.  Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you.  It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone.  I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre.  But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered."  O LORD, what should I request for your people?  I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk.  The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them.  I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions.  I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels.  The people of Israel are stricken.  Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit.  And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children."  (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed.  Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died.  (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)

"You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD.  "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms.  With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer.  With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens.  With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers.  "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD.  "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth!  I am your enemy," says the LORD.  "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights.  When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble.  You will be desolate forever.  Even your stones will never again be used for building.  You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD.  (Jeremiah 51:20-26)


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## ted_BSR (Mar 20, 2011)

bullethead said:


> However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you.  You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land.  You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance.  You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.  (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
> 
> If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years.  Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom.  If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year.  But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him.  If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master.  But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children.  I would rather not go free.'  If he does this, his master must present him before God.  Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl.  After that, the slave will belong to his master forever.  (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)
> 
> ...



In these passages, God is actually improving the way slaves are treated from the common pagan practices of the day. He is an advocate for them. In the new testament passages, he is giving instructions on how to be a good slave, probably to avoid beatings etc.

Salvery in biblical times was very comparable to everyday working life for you and me. It was a fact of the condition of life.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2011)

How many more examples are needed?


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## ted_BSR (Mar 20, 2011)

bullethead said:


> As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace.  If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor.  But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town.  When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town.  But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder.  You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
> 
> If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father.  Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)
> 
> "When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house.  But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb.  After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife.  However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion." (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)



Rules for warfare and taking spoils. They sound rathered civilized to me.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> In these passages, God is actually improving the way slaves are treated from the common pagan practices of the day. He is an advocate for them. In the new testament passages, he is giving instructions on how to be a good slave, probably to avoid beatings etc.
> 
> Salvery in biblical times was very comparable to everyday working life for you and me. It was a fact of the condition of life.



Oh! Still Slavery


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## ted_BSR (Mar 20, 2011)

bullethead said:


> How many more examples are needed?



I don't think that any you have provided have supported your statement that the Bible contradicts itself.


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## ted_BSR (Mar 20, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Oh! Still Slavery



Unions? Wait, you pay the Masters to get in one of those.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> Rules for warfare and taking spoils. They sound rathered civilized to me.



Yes, but when it's done in the name of Allah, they are extremists! ???


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## ted_BSR (Mar 20, 2011)

Maybe today's economic world is just another form of slavery. I wish I could quit my job and grow vegetables and hunt for my own food.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> Unions? Wait, you pay the Masters to get in one of those.



Talking about the Bible Ted.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> I don't think that any you have provided have supported your statement that the Bible contradicts itself.



1. God is satisfied with his works
         Gen 1:31
        God is dissatisfied with his works. 
         Gen 6:6
     2. God dwells in chosen temples
         2 Chron 7:12,16
        God dwells not in temples
         Acts 7:48
     3. God dwells in light
         Tim 6:16
        God dwells in darkness
         1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2
     4. God is seen and heard
         Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
          Ex 24:9-11
        God is invisible and cannot be heard
         John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16
     5. God is tired and rests
         Ex 31:17
        God is never tired and never rests
         Is 40:28
     6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
         Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
        God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all     
        things
         Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8
     7. God knows the hearts of men
         Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3
        God tries men to find out what is in their heart
         Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12
     8. God is all powerful
         Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
       God is not all powerful
         Judg 1:19
     9. God is unchangeable
         James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19
        God is changeable
         Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/
          Ex 33:1,3,17,14
     10. God is just and impartial
          Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25
         God is unjust and partial
          Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12
     11. God is the author of evil
          Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25
         God is not the author of evil
          1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13
     12. God gives freely to those who ask
          James 1:5/ Luke 11:10
         God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving   
         them
          John 12:40/ Josh 11:20/ Is 63:17
     13. God is to be found by those who seek him
          Matt 7:8/ Prov 8:17
         God is not to be found by those who seek him
          Prov 1:28
     14. God is warlike
          Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15
         God is peaceful
          Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33
     15. God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious
          Jer 13:14/ Deut 7:16/ 1 Sam 15:2,3/ 1 Sam 6:19
         God is kind, merciful, and good
          James 5:11/ Lam 3:33/ 1 Chron 16:34/ Ezek 18:32/ Ps 145:9/ 
           1 Tim 2:4/ 1 John 4:16/ Ps 25:8
     16. God's anger is fierce and endures long
          Num 32:13/ Num 25:4/ Jer 17:4
         God's anger is slow and endures but for a minute
          Ps 103:8/ Ps 30:5
     17. God commands, approves of, and delights in burnt offerings,  
         sacrifices ,and holy days
          Ex 29:36/ Lev 23:27/ Ex 29:18/ Lev 1:9
         God disapproves of and has no pleasure in burnt offerings,   
         sacrifices, and holy days.
          Jer 7:22/ Jer 6:20/ Ps 50:13,4/ Is 1:13,11,12
     18. God accepts human sacrifices
          2 Sam 21:8,9,14/ Gen 22:2/ Judg 11:30-32,34,38,39
         God forbids human sacrifice
          Deut 12:30,31
     19. God tempts men
          Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13
         God tempts no man
          James 1:13
     20. God cannot lie
          Heb 6:18
         God lies by proxy; he sends forth lying spirits t deceive
          2 Thes 2:11/ 1 Kings 22:23/ Ezek 14:9
     21. Because of man's wickedness God destroys him
          Gen 6:5,7
         Because of man's wickedness God will not destroy him
          Gen 8:21
     22. God's attributes are revealed in his works.
          Rom 1:20
         God's attributes cannot be discovered
          Job 11:7/ Is 40:28
     23. There is but one God
          Deut 6:4
         There is a plurality of gods
          Gen 1:26/ Gen 3:22/ Gen 18:1-3/ 1 John 5:7


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## ted_BSR (Mar 20, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Yes, but when it's done in the name of Allah, they are extremists! ???



Yeah, give them the chance to convert before you kill them!

I know, I know, the crusades, witch hunts etc. Men have histroically done outrageous and stupid things in the name of their religion. There is no denying that. Their motives were their own, and their actions will be judged in the end.


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## ted_BSR (Mar 20, 2011)

bullethead said:


> 1. God is satisfied with his works
> Gen 1:31
> God is dissatisfied with his works.
> Gen 6:6
> ...



Nice cut and paste, what is the website?

Not a lot of context either.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> I don't think that any you have provided have supported your statement that the Bible contradicts itself.



58. Man was created after the other animals
          Gen 1:25,26,27
         Man was created before the other animals
          Gen 2:18,19
     59. Seed time and harvest were never to cease
          Gen 8:22
         Seed time and harvest did cease for seven years
          Gen 41:54,56/ Gen 45:6
     60. God hardened Pharaoh's heart
          Ex 4:21/ Ed 9:12
         Pharaoh hardened his own heart
          Ex 8:15
     61. All the cattle and horses in Egypt died
          Ex 9:3,6/ 14:9
       All the horses of Egypt did not die
          Ex 14:9
     62. Moses feared Pharaoh
          Ex 2:14,15,23; 4:19
         Moses did not fear Pharaoh
          Heb 11:27
     63. There died of the plague twenty-four thousand
          Num 25:9
         There died of the plague but twenty-three thousand
          1 Cor 10:8
     64. John the Baptist was Elias
          Matt 11:14
         John the Baptist was not Elias
          John 1:21
     65. The father of Joseph, Mary's husband was Jacob
          Matt 1:16
         The father of Mary's husband was Heli
          Luke 3:23
     66. The father of Salah was Arphaxad
          Gen 11:12
         The father of Salah was Cainan
          Luke 3:35,36
     67. There were fourteen generations from Abraham to David
          Matt 1:17
         There were but thirteen generations from Abraham to David
          Matt 1:2-6
     68. There were fourteen generations from the Babylonian captivity
         to Christ.
          Matt 1:17
         There were but thirteen generations from the Babylonian      
         captivity to Christ
          Matt 1:12-16
     69. The infant Christ was taken into Egypt
          Matt 2:14,15,19,21,23
         The infant Christ was not taken into Egypt
          Luke 2:22, 39
     70. Christ was tempted in the wilderness
          Mark 1:12,13
         Christ was not tempted in the wilderness
          John 2:1,2
     71. Christ preached his first sermon on the mount
          Matt 5:1,2
         Christ preached his first sermon on the plain
          Luke 6:17,20
     72. John was in prison when Jesus went into Galilee
          Mark 1:14
         John was not in prison when Jesus went into Galilee
          John 1:43/ John 3:22-24
     73. Christ's disciples were commanded to go forth with a staff   
         and sandals
          Mark 6:8,9
         Christ's disciples were commanded to go forth with neither
         staffs nor sandals.
          Matt 10:9,10
     74. A woman of Canaan besought Jesus
          Matt 15:22
         It was a Greek woman who besought Him
          Mark 7:26
     75. Two blind men besought Jesus
          Matt 20:30
         Only one blind man besought Him
          Luke 18:35,38
     76. Christ was crucified at the third hour
          Mark 15:25
         Christ was not crucified until the sixth hour
          John 19:14,15
     77. The two thieves reviled Christ.
          Matt 27:44/ Mark 15:32
         Only one of the thieves reviled Christ
          Luke 23:39,40
     78. Satan entered into Judas while at supper
          John 13:27
         Satan entered into him before the supper
          Luke 22:3,4,7
     79. Judas committed suicide by hanging
          Matt 27:5
         Judas did not hang himself, but died another way
          Acts 1:18
     80. The potter's field was purchased by Judas
          Acts 1:18
         The potter's field was purchased by the Chief Priests
          Matt 27:6,7
     81. There was but one woman who came to the sepulchre
          John 20:1
         There were two women who came to the sepulchre
          Matt 28:1
     82. There were three women who came to the sepulchre
          Mark 16:1
         There were more than three women who came to the sepulchre
          Luke 24:10
     83. It was at sunrise when they came to the sepulchre
          Mark 16:2
        It was some time before sunrise when they came.
          John 20:1
     84. There were two angels seen by the women at the sepulchre, and
         they were standing up.
          Luke 24:4
         There was but one angel seen, and he was sitting down.
          Matt 28:2,5
     85. There were two angels seen within the sepulchre.
          John 20:11,12
         There was but one angel seen within the sepulchre
          Mark 16:5
     86. Christ was to be three days and three nights in the grave
          Matt 12:40
         Christ was but two days and two nights in the grave
          Mark 15:25,42,44,45,46; 16:9>
     87. Holy ghost bestowed at pentecost
          Acts 1:8,5
         Holy ghost bestowed before pentecost
          John 20:22
     88. The disciples were commanded immediately after the           
         resurrection to go into Galilee
          Matt 28:10
         The disciples were commanded immediately after the           
         resurrection to go tarry at Jerusalem
          Luke 24:49
     89. Jesus first appeared to the eleven disciples in a room at    
         Jerusalem
          Luke 24:33,36,37/ John 20:19
         Jesus first appeared to the eleven on a mountain in Galilee
          Matt 28:16,17
     90. Christ ascended from Mount Olivet
          Acts 1:9,12
         Christ ascended from Bethany
          Luke 24:50,51
     91. Paul's attendants heard the miraculous voice, and stood      
         speechless
          Acts 9:7
         Paul's attendants heard not the voice and were prostrate
          Acts 26:14
     92. Abraham departed to go into Canaan
          Gen 12:5
         Abraham went not knowing where
          Heb 11:8
     93. Abraham had two sons
          Gal 4:22
         Abraham had but one son
          Heb 11:17
     94. Keturah was Abraham's wife
          Gen 25:1
         Keturah was Abraham's concubine
          1 Chron 1:32
     95. Abraham begat a son when he was a hundred years old, by the  
         interposition of Providence
          Gen 21:2/ Rom 4:19/ Heb 11:12
         Abraham begat six children more after he was a hundred years 
         old without any interposition of providence
          Gen 25:1,2
     96. Jacob bought a sepulchre from Hamor
          Josh 24:32
         Abraham bought it of Hamor
          Acts 7:16
     97. God promised the land of Canaan to Abraham and his seed      
         forever
          Gen 13:14,15,17; 17:8
         Abraham and his seed never received the promised land
          Acts 7:5/ Heb 11:9,13
     98. Goliath was slain by Elhanan
          2 Sam 21:19 *note, was changed in translation to be        
           correct.  Original manuscript was incorrect>
         The brother of Goliath was slain by Elhanan
          1 Chron 20:5
     99. Ahaziah began to reign in the twelfth year of Joram
          2 Kings 8:25
         Ahaziah began to reign in the eleventh year of Joram
          2 Kings 9:29
     100. Michal had no child
           2 Sam 6:23
          Michal had five children
           2 Sam 21:8
     101. David was tempted by the Lord to number Israel
           2 Sam 24:1
          David was tempted by Satan to number the people
           1 Chron 21:1
     102. The number of fighting men of Israel was 800,000; and of    
          Judah 500,000
           2 Sam 24:9
          The number of fighting men of Israel was 1,100,000; and of  
          Judah 470,000
           1 Chron 21:5
     103. David sinned in numbering the people
           2 Sam 24:10
          David never sinned, except in the matter of Uriah
          1 Kings 15:5
     104. One of the penalties of David's sin was seven years of      
          famine.
           2 Sam 24:13
          It was not seven years, but three years of famine
           1 Chron 21:11,12
     105. David took seven hundred horsemen
           2 Sam 8:4
          David took seven thousand horsemen
           1 Chron 18:4
      David bought a threshing floor for fifty shekels of silver
          106. 2 Sam 24:24
          David bought the threshing floor for six hundred shekels of 
          gold
           1 Chron 21:25
      107. David's throne was to endure forever.
           Ps 89:35-37
          David's throne was cast down
           Ps 89:44


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## ted_BSR (Mar 20, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> That's interesting because I've always been told that God is a just God and that there will one day be a judgment day. It sounds like you are saying God sets aside justice in favor of saving us from it out of love. I don't think you are saying that it isn't justice if we get sent to eternal burning. So just in terms of crime and punishment my point stands that our concept of justice in terms of different levels of criminal severity and proportionality of crime to punishment is very different than his. Why should we not adopt the same guiding principles that any crime is as bad as the other and will be punished equally? Wouldn't that be more just?
> 
> It's a curious idea that you can be redeemed with a scapegoat but leaving that aside if the way to go is to set justice aside out of love should we not also make a practice of that? Or to let the innocent pay for the crimes of the guilty should we do that? Suppose a man commits a murder but his mother out of love for her son offered her own life as payment for his crime. Should we permit that and then say that her son is redeemed and washed clean of his crime? Would that be justice? Or grace? If not justice but grace why not follow God's lead?



We are not capable of it.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> Nice cut and paste, what is the website?
> 
> Not a lot of context either.




The verses are there and all anyone has to do to read them in full is crack open the bible.

Cut/paste, yep I have em saved. Easier than typing em all out every time someone asks for them.

But a cut/paste is way more important than the examples that you asked for.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> Rules for warfare and taking spoils. They sound rathered civilized to me.



Keeping the sabbath holy is warfare?


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## ted_BSR (Mar 20, 2011)

bullethead said:


> 58. Man was created after the other animals
> Gen 1:25,26,27
> Man was created before the other animals
> Gen 2:18,19
> ...



Is there a website? There is still no context.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> Is there a website? There is still no context.



http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/
it's all in there


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## ted_BSR (Mar 20, 2011)

bullethead said:


> http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/
> it's all in there



Did you glean all these "contridictions" yourself?


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> Did you glean all these "contridictions" yourself?



No, I did not.
What I have done is read the bible, cover to cover 5 times in my 41 years.
I have read bits and pieces of it hundreds of times and I have referenced it to check many of these contradictions too many times to count accurately.


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## ted_BSR (Mar 20, 2011)

I have my bible right here at my computer desk, and I have looked up a few of your examples.

The ones I looked up are clearly played on words and context. Your cut and paste and your saved list are clearly false.

I will continue to look them up and try to understand your point of view, but it appears that these slivers serve your purpose only when taken as slivers.


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## ted_BSR (Mar 20, 2011)

bullethead said:


> No, I did not.
> What I have done is read the bible, cover to cover 5 times in my 41 years.
> I have read bits and pieces of it hundreds of times and I have referenced it to check many of these contradictions too many times to count accurately.



So where did the list come from?


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2011)

I have a few lists from different sites that I have saved over the years. Where those exactly came from I do not know right now.
I have some that I put together, some I found on websites and some from others that have posted.

But you asked for examples and you got them. Out of all of them I am sure that a few could possibly be out of context and there are a few that are smack dab dead on the money. I can take the time to sort through them and give you one example of each that you asked for if you would like.


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## ted_BSR (Mar 20, 2011)

The explanations before the verses you have provided are not words from the scriptures at all. They are summarized interpretations of what someone (maybe yourself, maybe someone from some website) thought these verses mean.

If you are going to quote it, then quote it. If not, best not post scriptual references that make it appear you are quoting it.


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## ted_BSR (Mar 20, 2011)

I've looked up about 8 so far, and you are really taking some liberties here.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> The explanations before the verses you have provided are not words from the scriptures at all. They are summarized interpretations of what someone (maybe yourself, maybe someone from some website) thought these verses mean.
> 
> If you are going to quote it, then quote it. If not, best not post scriptual references that make it appear you are quoting it.



They are comments made about the verses, not the verses.


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## ted_BSR (Mar 20, 2011)

bullethead said:


> They are comments made about the verses, not the verses.



My point exactly.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2011)

2 Samuel 23:8 (English Standard Version)
 8(A) These are the names of the mighty men whom David hadB) Josheb-basshebeth a Tahchemonite; he was chief of the three.[a] He wielded his spear* against eight hundred whom he killed at one time.

1 Chronicles 11 (English Standard Version)
 10(H) Now these are the chiefs of David’s mighty men, who gave him strong support in his kingdom, together with all Israel, to make him king,(I) according to the word of the LORD concerning Israel. 11This is an account of David’s mighty menJ) Jashobeam, a(K) Hachmonite, was chief of the three.[a] He wielded his spear against 300 whom he killed at one time.

800 or 300 men?*


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2011)

Matthew 1:16 (English Standard Version)

16and Jacob the father of(A) Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.

Luke 3:23 (English Standard Version)
 23Jesus,(A) when he began his ministry, was about(B) thirty years of age, being(C) the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli,

Who was Joseph's father?


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## CAL (Mar 20, 2011)

bullethead said:


> What I have done is read the bible, cover to cover 5 times in my 41 years.



Curious,why would a disbeliever read the Bible 5 times.I know I am a strange dude but anything I don't believe in I certainly don't waste my time reading about it.Unless I just might deep down inside me wonder if just maybe there is some truth in there and I am missing something.What say you?


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2011)

CAL said:


> Curious,why would a disbeliever read the Bible 5 times.I know I am a strange dude but anything I don't believe in I certainly don't waste my time reading about it.Unless I just might deep down inside me wonder if just maybe there is some truth in there and I am missing something.What say you?




Was baptized Catholic, raised Protestant. Attended Sunday school, church and catechism classes until I was in my teens. I was no stranger to religion. When young I had no questions. As I grew I had questions but dare not ask them. While In my twenties I had already read the bible twice and started to question it. When asked to convert to Catholicism before my wedding, I sat down with the Priest and asked him some hard core questions. As we cut through the standard replies we really got to talking, civilly too, nothing heated. I asked so many questions that he either could not or would not answer honestly that he said to me " you obviously have put a lot of thought and effort into your beliefs and do not want to convert". That is how it ended.

Cal, How can I debate it without reading it? How can i talk about it without reading it? The more I read it the less sense it made. Sure it is a good read, but it got to a point where none of it was factual for me. My mother in law is as spiritual as they get and we have had some doozie conversations over the years. I would not crumble to tears to find out I got it all wrong, but I have found NOTHING inside of the Bible to lead me to think any of it is true. Organized religion is my biggest peeve.

cal, I actually was a believer until I read the bible.


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## ted_BSR (Mar 21, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Matthew 1:16 (English Standard Version)
> 
> 16and Jacob the father of(A) Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.
> 
> ...



Some say Matthew gave Joseph's line, while Luke gave Mary's. Others think the difference was between a royal line (that of Joseph), and a physical line (that of Mary). Still others see the variation as a result of at least two levirate marriages (where a man without sons was included in the list because his widow had children in his name by his brother). Probably a combination of factors is at work…

Footnotes from The Quest Study Bible NIV 1994

Bullet, you have heaping pile of opinion here. I have my own heaping pile of opinion. Neither has any bearing on the Truth, for it is the Truth no matter what anyone believes.

It is only opinion, and only proves that we believe our own opinions, which we are both entitled too.

I have also studied and reached different conclusions than you.

I have to agree with your peeve about "organized religion", it is also distasteful to me. Anytime humans get involved, and they "lead", there is bound to be hypocrisy. I take that duplicity with a grain of salt, and take the best of what I can from organized religion, mostly I trust the Lord, and He has yet to lead me down the wrong path.


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## atlashunter (Mar 21, 2011)

CAL said:


> Curious,why would a disbeliever read the Bible 5 times.I know I am a strange dude but anything I don't believe in I certainly don't waste my time reading about it.Unless I just might deep down inside me wonder if just maybe there is some truth in there and I am missing something.What say you?



Think everyone who studies mythology would only do so if they thought the stories true? How about other works of fiction?


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## atlashunter (Mar 21, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> Yeah, give them the chance to convert before you kill them!
> 
> I know, I know, the crusades, witch hunts etc. Men have histroically done outrageous and stupid things in the name of their religion. There is no denying that. Their motives were their own, and their actions will be judged in the end.



Not in the name of Ted, at the instruction of.


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## atlashunter (Mar 21, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> We are not capable of it.



In some respects we certainly are. For example we could make the punishment the same for all crimes regardless of intent. We could also permit the innocent to pay the price for the crimes of the guilty. In fact if we really want to follow God's example we should probably be holding children responsible for the sins of their fathers.

What we can't do is read people's minds and hearts but that is true regardless of which principles of justice we adopt. We just have to use the evidence at hand to figure that out as best we can.


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## bullethead (Mar 21, 2011)

> I have to agree with your peeve about "organized religion", it is also distasteful to me. Anytime humans get involved, and they "lead", there is bound to be hypocrisy. I take that duplicity with a grain of salt, and take the best of what I can from organized religion, mostly I trust the Lord, and He has yet to lead me down the wrong path.



Organized religion is the MAIN reason why I doubt the Bible. After all, nobody found God's or Jesus' diary and published it. There were not identical copies unearthed in different parts of the world by various races and creeds...now that would be the work of a superior being. This stuff took place in a teeny tiny area of the world and was written by people that had no clue of what was going on outside of "their" world. The Church,man, took it upon himself hundreds and in some cases thousands of years after the fact, to put a book together. People always talk about ancient scrolls being used to make this book and I'm sure they were but ONLY the scrolls that supported the cause were used and the ones that directly told of a different account were shelved. These ancient scrolls were all jotted down roughly in the same time period giving accounts of what happened but only some of them are deemed "inspired by god" and those just happen to be the ones that made it into the bible. Oddly enough MAN just so happened to be in charge of writing the bible. They told the story, but not the whole story. Whatever made it in was under order of the church. They had total control of what was included and excluded. I highly doubt any of it was due to divine intervention or inspired words. They HAD to include only the stuff that supported the business...I mean cause.The very first writings on those scrolls were in a totally different language that had to be translated in a more modern language. In many instances there were no words to match the translation, because it was done hundreds and hundreds of years after the fact, so a similar word was used. Right then and there man has changed the supposed word of god, therefore it is no longer the word of god. Then we have the New Testament that was written by who? The earliest of it's known writings appeared some 60 years after Christs death, and the rest much after. MAYBE Paul, because he lived to be in his 90's was actually able to account for being there, where as the other authors( who we really don't know who they actually are) are writing in first person but are a generation or two from ever being there. It wreaks of mankind conjuring up a book of tall tales that support a set of beliefs. The stories or verses that make sense are decent words to live by and have some historical facts.( Really, those "be good, do good, reap good" stories and verses are in every religion) The other stories are shock and awe filler that scared people into staying true to the religion. Those miracles and divine special effects were pretty good for the creative writings of the time, but today.....not so much.
As a human there is a part of me that wants to link everything to a superior being that got it all going, but there is a greater part of me that uses facts, reason and common sense that I use with everything else in every day life. That side of me is able sift through the **** and make an educated sensible opinion of why I think like I do.


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## CAL (Mar 21, 2011)

bullet,
i see exactly where you are coming from.Maybe God knew there would be people who would doubt His word and Jesus teachings.Reckon this is why our Lord said all you needed was the "Faith of a mustard seed"?Meaning one didn't have to have all of the Faith just a wee bit of it considering how tiny a mustard seed is.Reckon why God didn't say ya faith had to be the size of a coconut?He also said the path to Heaven was very narrow and few would make it but the path to destruction was wide and many would enter.

I still say,"if I am wrong,I have lost nothing".Have you ever thought about "suppose you are wrong"?Really ,have you?Is it really worth the chance to be wrong about God?


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## bullethead (Mar 21, 2011)

Cal, 
Why is it being right always involves Christianity? What if we are both wrong and the Hindus are right? What if...what if...what if....
What if you were born and raised in Pakistan, you would be asking me "what if your wrong about Islam"?
There are thousands of denominations within Christianity that do not agree about WHO has got it right. Each has their own Do's and Dont's and rules to get in the Pearly Gates. I don't want any part of it.

Are you suggesting that even if I don't believe, I should pretend to believe just to cover myself? Cause after all, what if I'm wrong???
I'll tell you what. I will practice Christianity if you practice Satanism, that way we can each add a little insurance for when our time comes and we are wrong.


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## atlashunter (Mar 21, 2011)

CAL said:


> bullet,
> i see exactly where you are coming from.Maybe God knew there would be people who would doubt His word and Jesus teachings.Reckon this is why our Lord said all you needed was the "Faith of a mustard seed"?Meaning one didn't have to have all of the Faith just a wee bit of it considering how tiny a mustard seed is.Reckon why God didn't say ya faith had to be the size of a coconut?He also said the path to Heaven was very narrow and few would make it but the path to destruction was wide and many would enter.
> 
> I still say,"if I am wrong,I have lost nothing".Have you ever thought about "suppose you are wrong"?Really ,have you?Is it really worth the chance to be wrong about God?



Is faith really a virtue? What if you are wrong indeed. Had you been born in another part of the world you might very well be accepting some other God on faith. Is that a good thing? If there really is a creator that gave us our minds what kind of creator would then torture us forever for putting those minds to use in trying to determine what is and isn't true? Any deity capable of creating the universe would be more than capable of revealing itself to every single one of us in no uncertain terms leaving no room for doubt and then an honest decision could be made concerning our relationship with him if that is what he wanted. That this sort of evidence is no where to be found tells us that either this deity chooses not to reveal itself because it doesn't want to be known, or it is malevolent, or there simply is no such being. The latter option seems the most likely to me.


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## CAL (Mar 22, 2011)

Only thing I can tell you fella's is"if I am wrong about Christianity I have lost nothing".This is all,can't post about other beliefs.I have no other beliefs to discuss.No other beliefs make any sense to me.Back to the same question,"suppose you are wrong"?I accept if I am wrong,do you?Better still,what has a non-believer accomplished being right about "there is no God".Please answer these questions.


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## Achilles Return (Mar 22, 2011)

My answer to that CAL comes very close to this quote:

“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” -Stephen Roberts

When you understand why 'no other beliefs make sense to you', you will understand why christianity doesn't make sense to me.


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## atlashunter (Mar 22, 2011)

You really answered your own question here when you said no other belief makes sense to you. For an atheist that applies to all religions. Yet those other religions may make threats against your non acceptance and you may very well have lost something if it turns out you are wrong. When it comes to Islam you're in the same boat as the atheist. You could be wrong but you see no reason to believe Islam is true and you don't allow your mind to be governed by fear. Exactly the same for the atheist with Christianity.

As an atheist I can at least say that I lived according to what I genuinely believed to be true. Some Christians can say the same, many can't. Many are actually engaged in wish thinking because they fear death. Others are "believing" just in case because they are afraid they might burn. Not sure how believing just to be on the safe side works. Seems you either really believe something or you don't.

You think there is no cost of believing even if you are wrong. I think that depends a lot on how you translate those beliefs into your life. For some people the cost is extremely high. At the very least you have the cost of going through life worrying about where others will go in the best case or actually believing people deserve eternal burning and worse in the worse case. When I can't tell my grandmother or grandfather what I really think about all of this because I know they would fear and worry about me being sent to the devil, that's a very real cost.


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## bullethead (Mar 22, 2011)

Cal, I 'd bet no other beliefs make sense to you because you have not taken the time to study any of them..

Your place of birth, upbringing, and geographical location all played into your beliefs right now. Had you been born in India, China, Iran, Israel( where all this started and THEY still do not believe in it the way you do) or in some Jungle , your arguments would be exactly the same why we should follow the religion of choice in those countries. 

You were brought up on Christianity and that is ALL you know, so therefore it is somehow "right", "the best", "the REAL religion", etc etc.
For the very reasons you do not believe in my beliefs and other religions beliefs, I do not believe in yours, why is that so hard to accept?

You keep asking "suppose you are wrong". Then the same thing will happen to me as will to you if you are also wrong. In my opinion...Nothing. I do not believe the hocus pocus stories.

 It does not seem to bother you in the least if you "got it wrong". You think that if you are wrong that "you lose nothing". You assume that if Christianity is not true, then "Oh well, I have nothing to worry about". You are overlooking any and all of the other religions rules about what happens to you after death. Your mind is made up. It is Christianity or it is Nothing. You don't even consider the other options. We are similar in that I also do not even consider any of the other options, but where we differ is that I lump Christianity right in there with them.

For the reasons you justify all other religions as being "wrong", I use those same reasons against yours. 

In another thread you told someone that St.Peter will know your true beliefs when you stand in front of the Pearly Gates. Yet you continue to push the thought of "hey guys listen up, what do you say ...tell me you believe in case you are wrong...Ok?" 

I understand that as a Christian is it your job to push the faith. But it also narrows your mind to think that of all the people on this planet, somehow YOU (and the other members of your club)have exclusive rights to a higher being. As sure as you are that you are "right", there are others that feel the exact same way about their beliefs. History has shown that all sides are willing to kill the others to prove their point. It is despicable.


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## bullethead (Mar 22, 2011)

> “I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” -Stephen Roberts



Kudos Achilles, Excellent quote that I always forget about.


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## stringmusic (Mar 22, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Cal,
> Why is it being right always involves Christianity? What if we are both wrong *and the Hindus are right*? What if...what if...what if....
> What if you were born and raised in Pakistan, you would be asking me "what if your wrong about Islam"?
> There are thousands of denominations within Christianity that do not agree about WHO has got it right. Each has their own Do's and Dont's and rules to get in the Pearly Gates. I don't want any part of it.
> ...



There is not right or wrong in Hinduism. "Both-and way" of thinking, not "either-or". That rules that one out for me.


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## bullethead (Mar 22, 2011)

ok string, just use the one that helps your cause, totally skip over the next sentence that asks about Islam.


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## Achilles Return (Mar 22, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> There is not right or wrong in Hinduism. "Both-and way" of thinking, not "either-or". That rules that one out for me.



'Rules it out'? As in, it's ok to ignore because the penalty is low? Isn't that a disturbing way to review religions? 

You're right about Hinduism though. You get judged for your actions, and no one is punished forever. There is actually a story about a guy who tells only one lie in his entire life and is sentenced to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- - but only for enough time to 'walk' through it. After he tours it, his time in Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- is up and goes to the Hindu paradise. 

I find that a lot less despicable than Christianity, I won't lie.


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## Achilles Return (Mar 22, 2011)

CAL I apologize if I offended you by adding 'old man' in my previous post, I didn't mean anything by it.


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## CAL (Mar 22, 2011)

Thanks for the apology Achilles although you are very correct.I don't know how old you are but I am 67.To me that is old as dirt!Anyway,I wasn't offended in the least.
Hey,you got me mixed up with someone else I think.I don't believe i ever mentioned "St.Peter".
Now I don't think my Faith is any stronger than any other Christian if that matters.You and others keep asking for proof of a higher power.Well for me,I have without a doubt proof of a Superior power.It is just as real to me as water is wet.For many years I only had two experiences but have had a third lately.I am not special as many Christians have experiences with a Superior power.I would walk you thru my experiences but you would only say they were just happenings so I see no need to try to explain.

Other religions,really?Why study other religions when I have the only one that counts?Hindus worship idols.I have some India friends that are Hindu and they are just as strong with their belief.Only thing I ever ask them was "what did a rock ever do for you",they can't answer but will not consider changing.They also worship cows as their  Jesus was fond of cows.Cows in India go where and do as they please.I told them my neighbor had an old black angus what needed rubbing and praying over.End of discussion!


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## bullethead (Mar 22, 2011)

Cal, if you would take the time to honestly pray to a rock for the exact same things you do to god, it would work out equally as well. It is like flipping a coin. 50/50 shot it is going to happen.
I know you won't and really i would not expect you to, but those are the odds, really.


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## CAL (Mar 22, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Cal, if you would take the time to honestly pray to a rock for the exact same things you do to god, it would work out equally as well. It is like flipping a coin. 50/50 shot it is going to happen.
> I know you won't and really i would not expect you to, but those are the odds, really.



Wrong!End of discussion.CAL has left the building!


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## bullethead (Mar 22, 2011)

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1844076.stm


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## atlashunter (Mar 22, 2011)




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## CAL (Mar 23, 2011)

bullethead said:


> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1844076.stm



Ha,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA........if anyone believes this,no wonder you are atheist.


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## bullethead (Mar 23, 2011)

Cal, I just believe in one less God than you do.


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## atlashunter (Mar 23, 2011)

To get this back on topic, it is curious that Christians don't see this stark difference in the ideas of what justice is and work to move people in that direction. Especially since that is exactly what they teach in other areas such as love. I've never heard a Christian say you shouldn't try to love as Christ loves because it is impossible.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 24, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Seems our conception of justice is very different from God's. Every society I am aware of has judged its members according to their actions. You murder or steal you are punished for it. And most people think the punishment should fit the crime. You don't give out the same punishment for murder as you would for shoplifting. There are even different levels of severity within the same crime. Someone who strangles a child is going to get a harsher sentence than someone who accidentally ran over a child due to negligence. Even though the outcome was the same (dead child) we take intent into account. And last but not least we don't provide a get out of jail free card on the basis of what the perpetrator believes.
> 
> For the God of the Bible it's different. There are rules and if you break any of them there is a punishment but the punishment is the same for all of them. The lie you told may have been a finite act but the punishment is eternal and the same for the good non-believer as it is for the worst of humanity. But there is a loophole to get you out of your predicament. Even though you deserve the same eternal fire as the worst human that has ever lived, you can get out of it as can they by believing the right thing.
> 
> Whatever you believe, these are two very different concepts of justice. My question is, if God's is superior to ours should we not adjust ours to match his as closely as possible and structure our justice system accordingly?





OK. I'm hopeing not everyone is spawned out on this question. Justice is a hot subject in a cool way.

I have answers as to why we do not "match" God's justice. Basically human beings are out for no 1 and not the devine's will. And this is true accross the board. It does not matter if you are christian, of The Deciples of Logic or not. People will pay great lip service to ideals but few will refuse the bird in the hand in the trade off. Few people are genuinely altruistic for example. Faith or logic will inform them to support a political phylosophy or a public policy for example but more than not they will trade it all for personal gain. To be more specific as an example, I might support political movement that is anti aborsion, but really I'm after a part of the air tanker contract of that same party. Or I support a cause, but I'm really in it for favors and if the cause changes, I'll still be in it, for the favors....

Take an example of what makes a just war or not. Just wars are lawful. Unjust wars are unlawful because the folk who declare them, twist the law ( often through paid legal opinion) to serve their selfish policy interests. Christians, who advocate grace as a discipline, are real good at this and have been for centuries. They can change from Grace to the Law faster than a camilion can blink.


But let's not throw out the baby with the bath H2O. Your assessment of God's justice is incomplete. So saying that we should ad"just" mankind's justice to God just is an none starter. Your assessment of God's justice is, according to me, like saying that in Libiya today ( March24, 2011) there is a routine police action going on because of a family dispute with involves domestic violence.

If you wish to discuss and learn what God's justice is, and is not, and I will learn also, I am willing to do this with you.
Only if we can agree what that justice is can your question,

 "My question is, if God's is superior to ours should we not adjust ours to match his as closely as possible and structure our justice system accordingly" 

become legit. 

I will say that according to my definition of Justice my answer to your question is a resounding "YES"!

If you are willing to discuss and study this question seriously, to the extent that it would be possible here on this forum, I will walk with you as long a you let me. Your personal spiritual philosophy is not in the cards here nor is mine. I am not out to convert you and you will not be out to de-convert me.

It is up to you and you don't have to accept. I will not think less of you.


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## atlashunter (Mar 24, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> I have answers as to why we do not "match" God's justice. Basically human beings are out for no 1 and not the devine's will. And this is true accross the board. It does not matter if you are christian, of The Deciples of Logic or not. People will pay great lip service to ideals but few will refuse the bird in the hand in the trade off. Few people are genuinely altruistic for example. Faith or logic will inform them to support a political phylosophy or a public policy for example but more than not they will trade it all for personal gain. To be more specific as an example, I might support political movement that is anti aborsion, but really I'm after a part of the air tanker contract of that same party. Or I support a cause, but I'm really in it for favors and if the cause changes, I'll still be in it, for the favors....
> 
> Take an example of what makes a just war or not. Just wars are lawful. Unjust wars are unlawful because the folk who declare them, twist the law ( often through paid legal opinion) to serve their selfish policy interests. Christians, who advocate grace as a discipline, are real good at this and have been for centuries. They can change from Grace to the Law faster than a camilion can blink.



In summary, people are self interested. So what?




gordon 2 said:


> Your assessment of God's justice is incomplete.





gordon 2 said:


> If you wish to discuss and learn what God's justice is, and is not, and I will learn also, I am willing to do this with you.
> Only if we can agree what that justice is can your question,
> 
> "My question is, if God's is superior to ours should we not adjust ours to match his as closely as possible and structure our justice system accordingly"
> ...



I've already expressed my view of what constitutes justice for the God of the bible. What is yours?


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## gordon 2 (Mar 24, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> In summary, people are self interested. So what?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Justice, man's justice and God's justice, cannot be understood by a few demonstrations. Both these evolve with time or through time, at the pace that man and societies can assimilate.  These simple facts necessitate that so called God's Justice is not without mercy and discrimination. Your view is tabloid, facile, blanket and in error.

As to the "So What?"  Again as long as man is self interested (as you say) man will have a hard time of matching God's brand of Justice--again which you do not appreciate for lack of an effort in ernest.

Peace.


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## atlashunter (Mar 25, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Justice, man's justice and God's justice, cannot be understood by a few demonstrations. Both these evolve with time or through time, at the pace that man and societies can assimilate.  These simple facts necessitate that so called God's Justice is not without mercy and discrimination. Your view is tabloid, facile, blanket and in error.



I don't see in this any opposition to the view that God punishes all broken rules equally so that point stands. Would you have any problem with us standardizing punishment to a single punishment that gets applied to all crimes?

Mercy and discrimination... I believe this is what I referred to as the loophole to get you out of your deserved punishment. If it is just that you pay for your sins with eternal torment it may be merciful for someone else to pay the price for you(not that Jesus even paid the price of eternal burning even according to christians btw) but is that just? If it is, again I've given specifics on how we could mimic that same practice in our own justice system. Show "mercy" on a criminal by allowing one of their family members to take on the punishment for his crime.




gordon 2 said:


> As to the "So What?"  Again as long as man is self interested (as you say) man will have a hard time of matching God's brand of Justice--again which you do not appreciate for lack of an effort in ernest.



I've given specific examples of how we could change our concept and system of justice to be closer in line with what is demonstrated by God to be justice, none of which require that we not be self interested. You're going to have to be more specific to make your case.


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## stringmusic (Mar 25, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> I don't see in this any opposition to the view that God punishes all broken rules equally so that point stands. Would you have any problem with us standardizing punishment to a single punishment that gets applied to all crimes?
> 
> Mercy and discrimination... I believe this is what I referred to as the loophole to get you out of your deserved punishment. If it is just that you pay for your sins with eternal torment it may be merciful for someone else to pay the price for you(not that Jesus even paid the price of eternal burning even according to christians btw) but is that just? If it is, again I've given specifics on how we could mimic that same practice in our own justice system. Show "mercy" on a criminal by allowing one of their family members to take on the punishment for his crime.
> 
> ...



Mercy and forgiveness are not without consequences. Paying for your sins apart from God for eternity is the ultimate punishment, your using the ultimate punishment for all crimes. If I sin today, God will love me and give me consequences for the actions of that particular sin. Kinda like our justice system.


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## atlashunter (Mar 25, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Mercy and forgiveness are not without consequences. Paying for your sins apart from God for eternity is the ultimate punishment, your using the ultimate punishment for all crimes. If I sin today, God will love me and give me consequences for the actions of that particular sin. Kinda like our justice system.



Ah now this is clever. Let me make one point and then ask a couple questions about what you are saying here.

The point I would make is that if you die and are tainted by sin, ANY SIN, and not a believer in Christ you go to the hot place for eternity no matter what your sins were. If you stole a bag of candy from the grocery store you're getting the same punishment as the guy in Austria who kept his daughter in a basement and repeatedly raped her for years. That is justice in the eyes of your God.

Your point is that God also punishes us for our sins here on earth. If that were true then wouldn't our justice system be completely unnecessary? Wouldn't people get what was coming to them regardless of whether or not we caught them? I'm curious where you see this pattern of God punishing people for their sins here on earth because I see every range of good things happening to both good people and bad people and bad things happening to both good people and bad people.


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## atlashunter (Mar 25, 2011)

I mentioned Josef Fritzl with respect to punishment in the afterlife but on reflection I think it also says something about your claim of God's justice being applied in this world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritzl_case

This is a man who imprisoned and raped his daughter for 24 years, having 7 kids with her. He wasn't found out until he was 73 years old. During that 24 year period he went about his normal life, went on vacations, etc. If your claim is true that God punishes us for our sins in this life what was he waiting for in this case?


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## stringmusic (Mar 25, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Ah now this is clever. Let me make one point and then ask a couple questions about what you are saying here.
> 
> The point I would make is that if you die and are tainted by sin, ANY SIN, and not a believer in Christ you go to the hot place for eternity no matter what your sins were. If you stole a bag of candy from the grocery store you're getting the same punishment as the guy in Austria who kept his daughter in a basement and repeatedly raped her for years. That is justice in the eyes of your God.


It is justice because God is Holy and without sin(any sin), we are with sin(which is our own choice) we cannot be in His presence without the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus Christ to take away those sins.



> Your point is that God also punishes us for our sins here on earth. If that were true then wouldn't our justice system be completely unnecessary? Wouldn't people get what was coming to them regardless of whether or not we caught them?


I think people get what is coming to them, we as humans want to see it happen right when it happens. God may punish them 25 years later.



> I'm curious where you see this pattern of God punishing people for their sins here on earth because I see every range of good things happening to both good people and bad people and bad things happening to both good people and bad people.



I dont know that there is a pattern that we can see. I think our good people and bad people are different in Gods eyes, and I think what we consider to be good things or bad things happening to someone is also different.


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## stringmusic (Mar 25, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> I mentioned Josef Fritzl with respect to punishment in the afterlife but on reflection I think it also says something about your claim of God's justice being applied in this world.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritzl_case
> 
> This is a man who imprisoned and raped his daughter for 24 years, having 7 kids with her. He wasn't found out until he was 73 years old. During that 24 year period he went about his normal life, went on vacations, etc. If your claim is true that God punishes us for our sins in this life what was he waiting for in this case?


I dont know?


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## Achilles Return (Mar 25, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Mercy and forgiveness are not without consequences. Paying for your sins apart from God for eternity is the ultimate punishment, your using the ultimate punishment for all crimes. If I sin today, God will love me and give me consequences for the actions of that particular sin. Kinda like our justice system.


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## ambush80 (Mar 25, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> It is justice because God is Holy and without sin(any sin), we are with sin(which is our own choice) we cannot be in His presence without the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus Christ to take away those sins.
> 
> 
> I think people get what is coming to them, we as humans want to see it happen right when it happens. God may punish them 25 years later.
> ...



"Mysterious Ways", indeed.  I'm going to start using that as an explanation for my behavior; in the spirit of trying to be more like Christ, of course.


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## atlashunter (Mar 25, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> It is justice because God is Holy and without sin(any sin), we are with sin(which is our own choice) we cannot be in His presence without the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus Christ to take away those sins.



Sorry but that doesn't follow. First, if he's God he can be in the presence of anything he chooses. Job demonstrates this when Satan approaches God in heaven. But let's say that God rejects the presence of any with sin who don't believe in the human sacrifice of Jesus. That still leaves the door to what is to be done with the sinners wide open. If they are all treated equally and receive the same punishment that is a decision independent of whether or not to allow them in your presence.




stringmusic said:


> I dont know that there is a pattern that we can see.



Then on what basis do you make the claim?


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## vowell462 (Mar 25, 2011)

Achilles Return said:


>



.....Killin Me!


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## bullethead (Mar 25, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> It is justice because God is Holy and without sin(any sin), we are with sin(which is our own choice) we cannot be in His presence without the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus Christ to take away those sins.
> 
> 
> I think people get what is coming to them, we as humans want to see it happen right when it happens. God may punish them 25 years later.
> ...



Doesn't the bible say the son is not to be punished for the sins of his father?
Deuteronomy 24:16 “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.


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## atlashunter (Mar 25, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Doesn't the bible say the son is not to be punished for the sins of his father?
> Deuteronomy 24:16 “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.



See contradiction #214.

http://www.project-reason.org/bibleContra_big.pdf


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## bullethead (Mar 25, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> See contradiction #214.
> 
> http://www.project-reason.org/bibleContra_big.pdf




Contradictions in the Bible? Noooooooooooo, say it isn't so!
those writings are Infallible!! I cannot imagine that something written in such an ancient language that has no translation for certain words and inspired by a perfect deity could have even one contradiction.

Whoda thunk it?


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