# Testing penetration of bird points on a deer (video)



## billyberger (Aug 29, 2012)

HEy guys,

I always wondered how effective a tiny little bird point was on a large animal, so I set up a test and shot a freshly killed deer with a 40-lb primitive bow and tiny stone points.  Some of you may have seen this already, but some of you haven't.  Check it out.  Seems the old guys still have a thing or two to teach us....


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## fish hawk (Aug 29, 2012)

Thats cool!!!Enjoyed the video,eye opening.40 lb draw and a stone tip,and i thought you needed 70 lbs,305 fps and a rage tip to make a kill shot!!!


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## Bow Only (Aug 29, 2012)

fish hawk said:


> Thats cool!!!Enjoyed the video,eye opening.40 lb draw and a stone tip,and i thought you needed 70 lbs,305 fps and a rage tip to make a kill shot!!!



You are correct.  You can not kill one without a Rage.


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## Nicodemus (Aug 29, 2012)

Ask Ben Kirkland about the effectiveness and rib cuttin` abilities of a Mississippian Triangle arrow point made from high grade raw Coastal Plains chert.


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## Bucky T (Aug 29, 2012)

Very cool video!!

I'm always amazed at the craftmanship of the points I've found.

Anything that can last that long, and literally still cut flesh easily, makes a believer out of me!

Almost every point I've found are still pretty dang sharp.


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## Jerk (Aug 29, 2012)

Those actually got BETTER penetration than a RAGE!  Hehe.


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## chehawknapper (Aug 29, 2012)

Billy - great video. My experience is that you get even better penetration on live deer because there is not as much give in the skin and muscle. Higher weights WILL give better penetration than light arrows. One of the earliest deer I killed with a stone point was rivercane shaft, S.E. two feather fletched with a small triangular point of raw butterscotch Flint River. Penetrated to within 2 inches of the fletching and that was after cutting ribs in two on both the entrance and exit. The only damage to the arrow was the sinew binding was cut on the side that sliced through the ribs. The arrow was shot from a 45lb hickory bow that had probably 2" of set so it was shooting at the speed of a well made 38 - 40lber. Don't sell a rock short. For all those steel point enthusiests out there - when your steel points get dull what do you sharpen them with? A rock.


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## westcobbdog (Aug 30, 2012)

cool vid thanks.


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## chehawknapper (Aug 30, 2012)

Thad Beckum has probably shot as many or more deer with stone points as anyone. He reads these forums occasionally. Chime in with your comments Thad - we would appreciate your thoughts.


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## florida boy (Aug 31, 2012)

Thats a cool video ! Granted I did it with a modern compoud bow but 2 years ago I killed a doe with a point my dad made and customized to fit a screw on head . It was a hernando style point .


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## Red Arrow (Aug 31, 2012)

That's good stuff right there.  Thanks for sharing it.


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## dtala (Aug 31, 2012)

I've killed a dozen er so deer, pigs, and one turkey with stone/glass/obsidian points. Usually out of 52-57# longbows.

Glass and obsidian are too fragile for my tastes as I have broken every one I've used, but without losing any animals. Tallahatta Quartzite also is too fragile and I have lost one deer with minimal penetration because of a broken head. I'm 99% sure she survived.

My favorite material is by far raw Texas cherts, very tough and very sharp. My experience comparing steel to stone heads is that the stone will out penetrate the steel in most cases. An exception may be hitting larger bones.

stone point killed pig, hickory shaft. Second pig killed with that point.






favorite style and material of point...





obsidian point on deer kill(lt)...broken Tallahatta Quartzite points on pig(rt)





stone point deer kill...









  troy


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## dtala (Aug 31, 2012)

stone point from first pic/glass point from pig kill/broke Tallahatta point on pig kill





pig kill, Texas chert point





broken Dalton style point made from Coastal Plains, broke on bison rib. Texas chert point penetrated to off lung and made the kill, 57# longbow









  troy


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## florida boy (Aug 31, 2012)

dtala did you have a booth set up at the knapin in sopchoppy fl a few years ago ?


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## chehawknapper (Aug 31, 2012)

Great pics and good info Troy!


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## dtala (Aug 31, 2012)

florida boy said:


> dtala did you have a booth set up at the knapin in sopchoppy fl a few years ago ?



nope, wasn't me

  troy


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## dtala (Aug 31, 2012)

the green glass point pictured a few back killed a pig. I found the broken tip when eating the pig a day er so later by biting it!!!

  troy


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## chehawknapper (Aug 31, 2012)

Troy, my experiences with obsidian and heavily heat treated cherts are the same as yours. They are one shot points - they kill but break while doing so. Raw flint river butterscotch gives me the same results as your Texas materials. I too prefer the same side notch style. Do you put a basal notch in yours?


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## dtala (Aug 31, 2012)

yes, a small basal notch on them. I think it sets the head in the shaft better with one.

the first deer I killed with a stone point was mahoghany obsidian. She moved and I hit her in the right hindquarter. I was mad enough to jump out of the tree, but she only went 80 yards and down in sight...thanks to a severed femoral artery. The point tip broke but the break was as sharp as any knapped edge, maybe moreso.


  troy


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## dtala (Aug 31, 2012)

the small white point in post #13 is one I made to prove to myself that some of the really crude points we find are actually effective in killing. The point is short, FAT, ugly, but sharp. I killed a hog with it, breaking the tip. I resharpened it, and missed a pig, breaking it again. I fixed it and killed a second pig with it...

  troy


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## Pointpuller (Aug 31, 2012)

dtala.........thats impressive and inspirational!!!!!  Nothing in our hunting world could be more gratifying than taking a big game animal with a self made bow and head.  Its on my list.


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## chehawknapper (Sep 1, 2012)

I made an absolutely beautiful 17 yard shot on a 14 yard deer (went right over his back) and buried the point to the haft in the base of a water oak. After chopping/cutting it out I found the haft still strong but 1/3 of the tip had broken. I rechipped it on the shaft and used it to take my next deer without incurring any damage. I have a strong appreciation for raw tough cherts or quartz to get the job done. If you look closely at original points, quite often, even if they are fat by today's flintknapping standards, there is extremely fine edge work that will get the job done as long as there is strong smooth hafting that does not impede penetration.


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## dtala (Sep 2, 2012)

I did almost exactly the same with a cane shaft and a Texas chert point. Missed (high) a big pig at maybe 12 yards dead centered the oak right behind the pig. I figgered the shaft/point were done. Took a while to dig it out but it was undamaged...


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## Flint Arrow (Sep 4, 2012)

*Flint Arrow*

You fellows all look to have great experience with stone points and we all know that a good shot with a primitive bow and arrow is what we need and the stone point will do its job. Sometimes i dream of stone points cutting thru hide and ribs and walking a blood trail on a beautiful fall day. Now i done got excited.


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## Flint Arrow (Sep 6, 2012)

*Flint Arrow*

Hey fellows, Billy wrote an article in Primitive Archer several years ago about hunting with "bird points" it was very well done. The article impressed me very much and was my intro into Billy's primitive quest. I saw him that year at a trade show and we became good friends. I don't remember what issue of Primitive Archer the story was in but it is worth the research to find out. I  was stunned by someone using bird points in a very well done experiment to prove what had only been talked about before and then writing about his findings....this kind of stuff is what we crave....


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## fish hawk (Sep 6, 2012)

Flint Arrow said:


> Sometimes i dream of stone points cutting thru hide and ribs and walking a blood trail on a beautiful fall day. Now i done got excited.



Dang you done got me excited now!!!


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## chehawknapper (Sep 7, 2012)

Great to see you Thad! I'm sure you have plenty of stories to share.


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## Flint Arrow (Sep 9, 2012)

*Flint Arrow*

Great to be here Ben....i am currently in the process of trying to get a stone point into the side of a whitetail ....that is the hard part to find one that is willing. I don't know who had the great idea to open bow season the first week of Sept. Shifting hot winds and 95% humidity. Praying for cooler weather.


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## chehawknapper (Sep 11, 2012)

I have confidence you will find 'em, if you can sit still through the skeeters. I won't have a chance to even set up for one for another couple of weeks yet.


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