# Questions for you ...



## centerpin fan (Apr 11, 2016)




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## BANDERSNATCH (Apr 11, 2016)

I Cor 5:9  I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
 10  Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
 11  But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
 12  For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? _do not ye judge them that are within_?
 13  But them that are without God judgeth. _Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person_.

Christians are to judge Christians, according to scripture.

Bandy


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## hobbs27 (Apr 11, 2016)

I love Christians, therefore I love one another. I don't think I love those folks in the video.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 11, 2016)

fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; 

sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler.

indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or is a drunkard, or cheats people.

fornicator, or a greedy man, or an idol worshiper, or an abuser, or drunkard, or a robber, 

 Do not even eat with such a person.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 11, 2016)

1 Corinthians 6:1
When one of you has a dispute with another believer, how dare you file a lawsuit and ask a secular court to decide the matter instead of taking it to other believers!

How does this work in our secular society?

1 Corinthians 6:4
If you have legal disputes about such matters, why go to outside judges who are not respected by the church?

Democrats?


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## hummerpoo (Apr 11, 2016)

Those folks did not come up with their ideas in a vacuum.  I, for one, need to ask myself if they could have drawn any of their conclusions about believers from me.

I do discount the possibility that scripture and Spirit was involved.  If so, they would surely of come across Bandy's post.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 11, 2016)

1 Corinthians 5:5
hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

What happens after the disassociation? God then uses Satan as a teaching tool to show this Christian the err of his ways? Like when God let Satan do physical things to Job.
The believer's spirit is still that of the Lords.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Apr 12, 2016)

Today's church is a long way from what the 1st century church was.    Today's church has been infected with 'tolerance' preaching and no longer practices discipline in the church as Paul ordained.   I get the feeling those kids in the video were liberal college students   lol

With such a one do not even eat.    Says it all.


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## ambush80 (Apr 12, 2016)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Today's church is a long way from what the 1st century church was.    Today's church has been infected with 'tolerance' preaching and no longer practices discipline in the church as Paul ordained.   I get the feeling those kids in the video were liberal college students   lol
> 
> With such a one do not even eat.    Says it all.



That would make a great T-shirt


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## formula1 (Apr 12, 2016)

*Re:*

Each one in the video espoused an opinion sometimes even backed with a scripture, that they perceived to be correct.  Therefore, their questions implied their goodness, that they if you will, are on the right side of each opinion! Pride comes in full force when you think you are 'right'!

The truth is all of us are evil and our righteousness is filthy rags.  That is the best that any of us can do!  And further, unless you have the righteousness of Christ applied to your account, you still have no hope!!!  No self-goodness will save any of us!  

But Jesus, we said these things for you!  But Jesus said, 'I never knew you!'

Therefore, let's know nothing else but Christ!! That's all that holds up in the end!   

The most amazing thing I am still in awe of is how God has granted someone as evil as me entrance into His Kingdom through His grace and kindness shown me through Christ Jesus.  It is really too wonderful to grasp in this simple brain of mine, so I just have to trust its truth.  I hope you will reflect on His joyous truth in you as well!!! And rejoice!!!


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 12, 2016)

I have trouble understanding shunning drunkards and cheaters.
I don't know where to start.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Apr 12, 2016)

formula1 said:


> Each one in the video espoused an opinion sometimes even backed with a scripture, that they perceived to be correct.  Therefore, their questions implied their goodness, that they if you will, are on the right side of each opinion! Pride comes in full force when you think you are 'right'!
> 
> The truth is all of us are evil and our righteousness is filthy rags.  That is the best that any of us can do!  And further, unless you have the righteousness of Christ applied to your account, you still have no hope!!!  No self-goodness will save any of us!
> 
> ...



Are you saying that you believe Paul was wrong to tell the Corinthians to throw the guy out?   Or to tell Christians not to even eat with another Christian that was involved in those things?


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 12, 2016)

1 Corinthians 6:11
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Was the man who was having sex with his stepmother "washed?" If shunned and turned over to Satan, then will eventually his soul be saved?

What criteria do we use for banishment? How many drinks can the drunkard Christian have? How many swindles can the swindler have?


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 12, 2016)

I would rather have a shirt that says;

"And such were some of you, but you were washed!"

You ever notice how Paul goes back and forth between works and grace?


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## centerpin fan (Apr 12, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> That would make a great T-shirt



I dunno.  It'd be hard to top your sig line for a T-shirt.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Apr 12, 2016)

centerpin fan said:


> I dunno.  It'd be hard to top your sig line for a T-shirt.



or his Avatar.        Shouldn't avatars expire after a certain amount of time?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Apr 12, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> 1 Corinthians 6:11
> And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
> 
> Was the man who was having sex with his stepmother "washed?" If shunned and turned over to Satan, then will eventually his soul be saved?
> ...



he was obviously 'a brother', as Paul said that God would judge those outside the church.    The fact that Paul is judging this guy tells us that the offender was a brother.  

Let's just use adultery as the example.   In your opinion, should the church 'shun' a brother in Christ that is involved in adultery?


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## EverGreen1231 (Apr 12, 2016)

I form my beliefs around scripture, they have formed scripture around their beliefs.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 12, 2016)

Paul is telling us to shun brothers. In Matthew we are told to let the tares and wheat grow together until the harvest. 

Don't some Churches take "shunning" a little more serious than most Churches? I'm not saying that we shouldn't, I'm just not sure what standards of sinning we should use. According to Paul sexual sins appear to be worse than other sins.

1 Corinthians 6:18
Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body.

or;

Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

Adultery as an example of shunning, sure. Lust, I don't think so as it hasn't affected the body. Unless our mind is part of our body.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 12, 2016)

The kids in the video. We have to decide if they are tares or brothers. It tares we leave them be. If brothers we turn their bodies over to Satan so that their spirit may be saved.

I hope I never have a lawsuit against one of them. It'd be hard to get them back into the Church for court. There must be something in those parts of Corinthians Paul is trying to teach us about grace. I must read on.


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## hummerpoo (Apr 12, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Paul is telling us to shun brothers. In Matthew we are told to let the tares and wheat grow together until the harvest.



Apples and Oranges.

Mat 13:38  The field is the world ...

This supports 1 Cor. 5:

13  God judges those outside.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 12, 2016)

I think I may have found it. I'll start here;

1 Corinthians 6:8
Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters.

1 Corinthians 6; 9                                                                           Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.…

1 Corinthians 6:11
11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 12, 2016)

Tares look like wheat. They attend Church. Thus we must leave them until the Harvest. I nor you can tell the tares from the wheat. It will be hard for us to shun tares. They won't be the sexually immoral or swindlers.


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## hummerpoo (Apr 12, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> The kids in the video. We have to decide if they are tares or brothers.



1Co 5:11  ... bears the name of brother ...

They claim the name.  Do we call them a liar; or do we accept them and throw them out is the question.  How do we achieve that is the REAL question?  It is actually a question for the leadership of the "Church".

"Now your assignment, if you should decide to accept it, is to find them.  This message will self destruct in 5 sec."


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## hummerpoo (Apr 12, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Tares look like wheat. They attend Church. Thus we must leave them until the Harvest. I nor you can tell the tares from the wheat. It will be hard for us to shun tares. They won't be the sexually immoral or swindlers.



Those who claim the name are to be believed.


1Co 5:11 ... bears the name of brother ...


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 12, 2016)

Psalm 46:10
"Cease striving and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth."

Colossians 3:3
For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

I don't see any fruit in those kids in the video. Perhaps they are tares after all. But who am I to judge.

Romans 1:32
32and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
Romans 2:1
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Apr 12, 2016)

Very difficult to get 'yes' or 'no' answers in these forums.   There's always 'ambiguity'.  

Well, I believe Paul when he said that there are brothers that should be dealt with.   Today's church only punishes pastors caught in these sins.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 12, 2016)

I'll answer Yes if you give me the guidelines? Who do we shun? What about at home? If our grown child gets shunned at Church, do we turn our own child's body over to Satan. Knowing that their soul still belongs to God.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Apr 12, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'll answer Yes if you give me the guidelines? Who do we shun? What about at home? If our grown child gets shunned at Church, do we turn our own child's body over to Satan. Knowing that their soul still belongs to God.




I'll just be happy with "Yes, there are some who need to be shunned by the Church"...   You do agree that, if Paul lived now, he'd want some church members shunned by the church?  (BTW, the I Cor 5 example was someone's son)


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## hummerpoo (Apr 12, 2016)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Very difficult to get 'yes' or 'no' answers in these forums.   There's always 'ambiguity'.
> 
> Well, I believe Paul when he said that there are brothers that should be dealt with.   Today's church only punishes pastors caught in these sins.



Bandy, I wish I could believe that your last statement was correct.  Although I've seen it applied, I've also seen it ignored, even to the point of cover-up by leadership.

1 Cor. 5 is, in my estimation, one of the clearest and most complete doctrinal statements in the NT; and was just as clear when given to Moses.  That has to relate directly to it being one of the most ignored.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Apr 12, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> Although I've seen it applied, I've also seen it ignored, even to the point of cover-up by leadership.



Sad, but true.


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## hummerpoo (Apr 12, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'll answer Yes if you give me the guidelines? Who do we shun? What about at home? If our grown child gets shunned at Church, do we turn our own child's body over to Satan. Knowing that their soul still belongs to God.



This does not refer to a 10 y.o.

Deu 21:18  "If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, 
19  then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, 
20  and they shall say to the elders of his city, 'This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.' 
21  Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Apr 12, 2016)




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## hummerpoo (Apr 12, 2016)

BANDERSNATCH said:


>



Like I said, the doctrine is clear and complete; always has been.
God is serious about the integrity of the Body of believers who call Him LORD.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 12, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> Like I said, the doctrine is clear and complete; always has been.
> God is serious about the integrity of the Body of believers who call Him LORD.




But then, He among you that have no sin, cast the first stone.


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## hummerpoo (Apr 12, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> But then, He among you that have no sin, cast the first stone.



Meaning what?


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## centerpin fan (Apr 12, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> But then, He among you that have no sin, cast the first stone.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 12, 2016)

Deu 21:18 "If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, 
19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, 
20 and they shall say to the elders of his city, 'This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.' 
21 Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear. 

Isn't this related to the world and not the Church? Also it was under the Old Covenant.  Today do we condemn drunkards and gluttons to death? 
Should we even shun drunkards and gluttons if brothers in Christ?
Why not just get them some secular help?


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## hobbs27 (Apr 12, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> Meaning what?



I take from it that there is none among us that are worthy to persecute anothers sin. Maybe I'm wrong.


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## RH Clark (Apr 12, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> 1 Corinthians 5:5
> hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
> 
> What happens after the disassociation? God then uses Satan as a teaching tool to show this Christian the err of his ways? Like when God let Satan do physical things to Job.
> The believer's spirit is still that of the Lords.



I can't view the video but I want to address your assumption.

God does not use the devil as a teaching tool! Nothing in the Word of God teaches that! It's just a dumb doctrine of some men.

Paul did say to turn the sinful man over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh that he might be saved in the last day. All that means is to throw him out of the Church, out from the covering and protection of prayer and supplication. Sin will bring destruction all on it's own, just a James says.


Everyone reads Job as if God turned Job over to Satan. The book of Job does not say that at all. God doesn't say to Satan, "you can have Job." All God says is "behold he is in your hand." All behold means is "look and see." Job had already opened the door to Satan and God spoke the truth to Satan just as he would to anyone. 

A key to understanding that is the sacrifices Job made for his children,and the scripture says " thus did job continually". Why, because Job had no faith in the sacrifice to work. Job's fear opened the door for destruction. Later we see Job say " the thing I greatly feared has come upon me". Fear is the opposite of faith and the scriptures say God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, love and a sound mind.


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## hummerpoo (Apr 12, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> I take from it that there is none among us that are worthy to persecute anothers sin. Maybe I'm wrong.



Freudian slip maybe: "persecute" vs "prosecute"
or maybe dumb fingers like mine.

The subject isn't the judgment or condemnation for sin, in my view.

On the first level the subject is that God requires His people to be obedient, thus serving their purpose of glorifying His Name before the world.  "you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear"

On the second level the offender is to be assisted in the Lord.

In the case from Deut., Mat. 18:15-17 has been met.
As to death penalty, Art has a ? hanging that I think will include my thoughts, but it's speculative.


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## hummerpoo (Apr 12, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Deu 21:18 "If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them,
> 19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives,
> 20 and they shall say to the elders of his city, 'This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.'
> 21 Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
> ...



"C" vs "c" is critical here, as is national Israel vs. spiritual Israel.  If those who claim to be part of the Church, and are really not among God's People, are to be considered as under the requirement to maintain the integrity of the Church, then those who are of national Israel would be included along with spiritual Israel.




> Also it was under the Old Covenant.



It is under the Law as revealed through Moses which is associated with the The Covenant.



> Today do we condemn drunkards and gluttons to death?



The issue is not the penalty, the question is obedience by God's People, to insure that God's Name will be Glorified before the world.

You will seldom hear me talk about the social or civic situation or audience relevance as they are used most often to bend scripture to fit the point of the speaker (usually dodging the true meaning); however, in this case I confess that I think it may fit.  In other words, I'm speculating.  If, 1500 years before Christ, that young man in Deut. were separated from the protection and provision of his community, he may have been sentenced to a worse death.  But that really is not a first tier consideration.



> Should we even shun drunkards and gluttons if brothers in Christ?



Yes, In strict accordance with scripture and Spirit (Mat. 18:15-17).




> Why not just get them some secular help?



Again, with the guidance of scripture and Spirit, it should be determined whether his problem is spiritual or physical.  Secular help is worthless until the spirit is cared for.  (Neurochemical imbalances are physical.)


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## RH Clark (Apr 12, 2016)

Concerning shunning brothers in Christ, it is unrepentant sinners who are to be shunned, those who have been shown the problem but refuse to acknowledge it as a problem or to deal with it. Otherwise we would all be alone.LOL


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 12, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Concerning shunning brothers in Christ, it is unrepentant sinners who are to be shunned, those who have been shown the problem but refuse to acknowledge it as a problem or to deal with it. Otherwise we would all be alone.LOL



So if there is a brother who drinks too much or eats too much, we should shun him? Repenting means changing. Thinking about it or knowing it is wrong isn't repenting. 
To repent from sin one must change. 
If a brother doesn't stop eating too much or drinking too much, he hasn't repented. His fruits aren't showing that he has the Holy Spirit producing fruit. We should kick him out of the Church.


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## formula1 (Apr 12, 2016)

*re:*



BANDERSNATCH said:


> Are you saying that you believe Paul was wrong to tell the Corinthians to throw the guy out?   Or to tell Christians not to even eat with another Christian that was involved in those things?



Didn't even address that at all!


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 12, 2016)

I know plenty of sinners that admit they have problems overcoming their individual sins. They still perform them. Is that really repentance from sin?

Why not repent from believing you can save yourself by not sinning to believing Jesus died for our sins? That's my repentance. To me that's the Gospel.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 12, 2016)

Does this verse pertain to the brothers in the video?

1 Corinthians 10:13 
No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it. 

What is it about the sins of others that must be judged to the point of shunning vs our own sins? My point is where is the list we use? How much repentance is required? What if the brother eats one too many fried chicken legs or has one to many Budweiser? 

We find out he has one affair or twenty affairs. Another brother cheats every year on his income tax. Another brother treats female co-workers in a demeaning manner. Another brother talks really bad about black people saying they aren't even humans. 
How much repentance, how much fruit? Who gets to decide? Do Churches have a "shunning committee?" I'd hate to have that responsibility.
Reminds me of that old song about the day my Mama socked it to the Harper Valley PTA.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 12, 2016)

I've noticed that Paul speaks a lot about sexual sin or pornaia. Even saying it is worse that other sins. That man must learn to control his mind and body when it comes to pornaia.

He talks a lot about married couples and how sexual immorality can hinder this marriage. He discusses the sexual immorality of the Pagans and of the converted Pagans. 

Maybe it has something to do with being made in God's image.

1 Corinthians 6:18 
Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. 

1 Thessalonians 4:3-5  
For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God; 

Not from Paul but;
Matthew 5:28
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.


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## RH Clark (Apr 12, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> So if there is a brother who drinks too much or eats too much, we should shun him? Repenting means changing. Thinking about it or knowing it is wrong isn't repenting.
> To repent from sin one must change.
> If a brother doesn't stop eating too much or drinking too much, he hasn't repented. His fruits aren't showing that he has the Holy Spirit producing fruit. We should kick him out of the Church.



I think repenting is more along the lines of changing your mind, having the desire and will to change. If repenting meant absolute change without error, wouldn't we all be without any sin by now?


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 12, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> I think repenting is more along the lines of changing your mind, having the desire and will to change. If repenting meant absolute change without error, wouldn't we all be without any sin by now?



That's the enigma of shunning. It requires actually changing, not just thinking it is wrong.


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## RH Clark (Apr 12, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> That's the enigma of shunning. It requires actually changing, not just thinking it is wrong.



Shunning is the last resort, not the first response. What does Paul tell us to do when we find a brother in the wrong?

Galatians 6:1-2King James Version (KJV)

6 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.


If shunning was the only and first response, this scripture would not exist. Neither do I mean just thinking it is wrong, yet a man may attempt and fall back into temptation, which I do not feel deserves shunning. It is to be used as a last resort when all else has failed, to finally convey the seriousness of a problem. Even then we must remember Jesus told us to remove our own planks before we could see clearly to remove the splinter from another.


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## hummerpoo (Apr 12, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> That's the enigma of shunning. It requires actually changing, not just thinking it is wrong.



Why enigma?


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