# My Lab has a CCL injury



## RacinNut (Oct 18, 2015)

I found out yesterday, my 3 year old Lab. Zach has a ACL/CCL injury, he started limping on his right rear leg several weeks ago, I took him to our vet and she did a x-ray and  could see a tear cartilage and tried The Drawer Sign but she was not 100% sure of the diagnosis, so she sent us to an ortho. specialist, very nice place and a vet tech took Zach and we waited in the room, the vet came in about 30 minutes later and explained the injury to us and told us Zach needed surgery, a Tibial Plateau Leveling Osteotomy (TPLO) $3300.00, I had never heard of this and told him I would think about this and call him back.  I am just kind of unsure of this, and have seen dogs recover from all kinds of injuries without surgery, has anybody heard of this procedure or had it done in their dog, as usual the internet is full of info.


----------



## GA Carpkiller (Oct 18, 2015)

Our dog had to have the TPLO, first on his left leg and a year later, he blew out right leg and had to have it done.  That's been 5 years and he shows no signs of any issues.  It is a difficult recovery for the dog, as you have to keep him calm (and that's not easy with labs).  We had to walk him with a sling for a month to keep the weight off that leg.


----------



## redman2006 (Oct 19, 2015)

Knock on wood, none of mine have ever had this done.  If they did, they would have the surgery.  There are some older methods, but in active large dogs, they do not hold as well as either the TTA or TPLO.  The current trend is shifting toward the TTA.

This is the same as an ACL tear in a human.  If it has torn, surgery is the only way to really fix it.  Sometimes there will be enough fibrosing of the joint capsule that it appears to heal until the dog steps in a hole, jukes and jives after a squirrel, or whatever his poison might be.  

As such a young dog, this is a good investment, especially if he is a hunter.

The other knee will likely go as well.  Roughly 70-80% of dogs that rupture one, will injure the other.  

Keeping the weight off of them helps.  So does making sure they stay in shape rather than being a weekend warrior during hunting season.  

If it is affordable, I would sure suggest doing it.


----------



## Joe Overby (Oct 19, 2015)

99% chance the dog will NOT recover without surgery. 60% chance he will rupture the other one. Unfortunately, torn acls/ccls are becoming more prevalent in labs.


----------



## redman2006 (Oct 19, 2015)

You train a lot of athletic dogs, how many of those are you seeing with CCL injuries?  

In our practice, we see mostly weekend warrior dogs rather than truly athletic dogs with this type of injury.  Luckily, it seems in my practice, when we see a true athlete, it was a sports injury and they are less likely to injury the other than the overweight couch potatoes that chase a squirrel on the weekend.   

The athletic dogs are at a less than 50% chance of rupture and the pudges are closer to 80.  It really skews the average.  

Anyway, since you are dealing with athletes, I wondered how many you are seeing.  For that matter, how many are other trainers seeing?


----------



## Joe Overby (Oct 19, 2015)

One of my best friends is a ht pro in SC. His personal lab...in pristine shape might I add...has ruptured both of his in the last 12 months. I'm not seeing it in dogs I'm personally training but that said, I have a client that has owned 4 that have all had ruptured ccls. I guess I'm seeing it in about 20%...and I don't believe it's sports related...nor do i think its weight related...I personally believe it's genetic as I have noticed it more prevalent in 3 separate bloodlines. I can't prove that and of course an overweight dog placing stress on its joints is a recipe for disaster, but, like ocd, degenerative arthritis, and degenerative myopothy I believe this is a genetic joint disorder presenting itself in dogs that physically exert themselves like an NFL player with complete and total disregard for their personal safety.


----------



## RacinNut (Oct 20, 2015)

Thanks for the information, this a athletic dog, not really a hunter, but I do train with the hunting methods, Zach just goes wide open all the time, weather its jumping in the water to swim, after a squrrille, or after a frizbee, he is not over weight but a big tall lab, 90 lbs.and has been on Victor Dog Food Green Bag for the last year or so.   I also think its in his genes, I can't prove anything and have not spoken with the breeder, but I plan to to see if they have heard about any of his litter mates, I think there was 9 puppies.
Its crazy with my labs, I got 11 year old Reagan, and hes ran his entire life with a injury, now hes got LP but doing good right now and a good old dog.
With this being said, can ya'll give me the names of any vets you would recommend, I'm in Lawrenceville Ga.  We have seen a specialists in Buford, Ga. that we were referred to by my vet., they seemed good but I am open to suggesttions.


----------



## redman2006 (Oct 20, 2015)

There is absolutely a genetic component.  The slope of the tibial plateau is a huge part of the condition, which is genetically related.  Cushings or the use of corticosteroids plays a role too.  It is a lot like hip dysplasia with a genetic component and environmental conditions playing a role.

If you are looking for a surgeon in that area Blue Pearl, aka GVS, north georgia veterinary specialists, All Pets on highway 9, and the university are the ones I have sent clients to previously.  All have had great success if they followed the surgeon's directions.  The failures were related to,  but he was doing so well and hated the restrictions, leash, kennel, ......
 Or I know, but he is just big boned, he needs more than that to eat.
Or...  well, you get the idea.  Lol

Like any injury, there will be issues with age, but much fewer and less severe with the surgery than without.

Good luck!


----------



## redman2006 (Oct 20, 2015)

Joe, would you pm me with the lines?  I would like to know what you are seeing.  I am a lab guy myself.

Thanks


----------



## Joe Overby (Oct 20, 2015)

RacinNut said:


> Thanks for the information, this a athletic dog, not really a hunter, but I do train with the hunting methods, Zach just goes wide open all the time, weather its jumping in the water to swim, after a squrrille, or after a frizbee, he is not over weight but a big tall lab, 90 lbs.and has been on Victor Dog Food Green Bag for the last year or so.   I also think its in his genes, I can't prove anything and have not spoken with the breeder, but I plan to to see if they have heard about any of his litter mates, I think there was 9 puppies.
> Its crazy with my labs, I got 11 year old Reagan, and hes ran his entire life with a injury, now hes got LP but doing good right now and a good old dog.
> With this being said, can ya'll give me the names of any vets you would recommend, I'm in Lawrenceville Ga.  We have seen a specialists in Buford, Ga. that we were referred to by my vet., they seemed good but I am open to suggesttions.



Auburn University would be my first call. The University of Ga would be my 2nd. I want somebody who has done a pile of these surgeries doing one for me regardless of the cost.


----------



## redman2006 (Oct 21, 2015)

I like Auburn a lot, but the residents at most schools end up doing these.  I can not speak directly to Auburn, but you may want to ask.  There is nothing wrong with that, but you should know.  Everyone has to learn at some point.  The boarded surgeons have already paid their dues and learned the surgery, so they will have done a bunch.  

The ones I mentioned have great boarded surgeons as well as good results.  You might ask about the Ortho guys.  Some prefer soft tissue and others Ortho.   Also, when you talk to them, ask them about tier feelings on TTA vs tplo and which they use, why, success rates, etc.

Good surgeons won't mind you asking.


----------



## krazybronco2 (Oct 21, 2015)

redman2006 said:


> I like Auburn a lot, but the residents at most schools end up doing these.  I can not speak directly to Auburn, but you may want to ask.  There is nothing wrong with that, but you should know.  Everyone has to learn at some point.  The boarded surgeons have already paid their dues and learned the surgery, so they will have done a bunch.
> 
> The ones I mentioned have great boarded surgeons as well as good results.  You might ask about the Ortho guys.  Some prefer soft tissue and others Ortho.   Also, when you talk to them, ask them about tier feelings on TTA vs tplo and which they use, why, success rates, etc.
> 
> Good surgeons won't mind you asking.



can you explain the last two acronyms?


----------



## redman2006 (Oct 21, 2015)

TTA is a tibial tuberosity advancement surgery.  The tuberosity on the front of the tibia is cut loose from the tibia and moved forward with a spacer between it and the tibia.  This causes the patellar tendon to put more force on the bones and bring them back into correct alignment.  

The TPLO is a tibial plateau leveling osteotomy.  It involves a half moon cut that releases the top of the tibia from the shaft.  It is then rotated a specific amount depending on the degree needed for the dog to have a stable platform for the femur to rest on.

Both surgeries are stabilized with specialized plates.  Neither surgery recreates the CCL.

In both surgeries, the surgeon will examine the joint and determine if he/she needs to go in to repair any Meniscal tear as well. Meniscal tears are very common in these injuries.  Sometimes they will also clean up the ends of the ruptured ligament.  

Both of these are much stronger than the old suture methods and are far preferred for large dogs or athletic dogs.  In cases where cost is a deciding factor, the other methods may still be attempted, but they are not as reliable.

Hope that helps


----------



## Joe Overby (Oct 21, 2015)

No residents doing that at Auburn. The doc over there is the best in the SE and the go to guy for FTers across the south...that's why he'd be my first call.


----------



## jhoughton (Oct 25, 2015)

Dr Montgomery is no longer at auburn and he is the one all of the field trialers have used for years.  He is at a private practice in pensacola now.  There is nobody better at that type of surgery.


----------



## Joe Overby (Oct 25, 2015)

When did he leave?? We saw him for dad's 8yr old AA lab just last year when he ruptured 2 disks in his back. He referred us to uga for that surgery.


----------



## jhoughton (Oct 26, 2015)

Joe Overby said:


> When did he leave?? We saw him for dad's 8yr old AA lab just last year when he ruptured 2 disks in his back. He referred us to uga for that surgery.



He left a few months ago.  He is working 3 days a week at the private practice now.  He did a tplo surgery for us a month ago.


----------



## Joe Overby (Oct 26, 2015)

Didn't know that...he is the best in the southeast. Good to know where he's at should the need arise.


----------



## Johnny44 (Nov 12, 2015)

My Pitbull had TPLO 3 years ago at a place in North Charleston recommended by our vet.  They were absolutely wonderful.  Recovery is difficult but we're crazy stupid dog people so we enjoyed it.  It also helped that I am a teacher and had time off to help her.  She needed the sling for a couple weeks when she went outside to use the bathroom.  She's fat and lazy and not much for exercise.  We now walk her daily and she does well.


----------



## Raylander (Nov 13, 2015)

My dog had a similar injury about 5-6 years ago. Went for xrays, then to a specialist for MRI and surgery consultation. Same surgery was suggested- TPO. I'll be honest- if I could have afforded the $3k surgey I would have paid for it, but I couldn't afford the expense.. My dog never got the surgery and he is 9 now. He runs and plays like a puppy and I can say that he shows no discomfort or signs from the injury.. Maybe we just got lucky, maybe he is just a super healer, maybe the vet was full of crap. I don't know, all I know is that my dog is healthy now.. I'm not for or against the procedure- I just thought id share my experience


----------



## egomaniac247 (Nov 14, 2015)

Here's something funny...

I was the guy that just posted the bad news about having to put my 15+ year old lab down.  The pain has subsided mostly but I still have a lot of reminders around the house that remind me of her.

That said, around 2004-2005 which would have put her about 3-4 years old, we were playing in the back yard and I saw her step into a hole and it results in her limping.

I took her to the vet the next day when she was still limping and the doc's told me she had a torn CCL or MCL or something (can't remember what exactly) but that the surgery was $2000 and if I didn't do it, she'd walk with a limp and have very bad arthritis as she got older.

I told the doc no I didn't want to do the surgery and to just please give me some pain meds for her.

That dog lived to be 15+ years old and never saw another side effect from that injury after she rested it for a few days.


----------



## ScottA (Jan 26, 2016)

My yellow lab, Max, had the same injury in BOTH, of his rear legs when he was was 2.5 years old. He had his first TPLO surgery on his left rear leg in February of 2011 at the UGA vet school. Once he was mostly recovered from the first surgery, he went back to UGA for his second TPLO on his right rear leg in June of 2011. He developed an infection in the right rear leg in December of 2011 and had a third surgery to remove the plate and screws in his right leg 4 days before Christmas. He was finally able to run again, off leash in February of 2012, 12 months and about $7500 after he was diagnosed. Have you ever tried to keep a 2 -3 year old lab still for 12 months?
Max was not a hunter, but I was training to blood trail. He had found afew deer during the 2010 season. He tore his ligament doing what he loves, chasing and retrieving a ball. if he overran a ball, he would try to stop and turn on a dime. After one such episode, he came up lame on his left rear leg. After about 5 minutes he was putting weight on the leg and after about 15 minutes he wasn't showing any signs of injury. After this happened again a couple of weeks later, I took him to the vet and he was diagnosed.
Max has not had any throuble since and is now 7.5 years old.


----------

