# MAN! here we go again!



## LanceColeman (Aug 21, 2010)

Welp! there's 4 bows sitting out there on my desk that are all tuned..... and ready, and all have arrows and BHs set up and flying true from them...... Until yesterday.

I'm pretty big on strings. Used to tie them, but can't afford the amount of materials you have to buy to stay on top of the changes. Why do you need to stay on top?? because there's huge differences in performances of strings. How big?? Bigger than most bow brands differences in performance thats how big (as in the lowest quality versus the highest quality material can be over 20fps) How big on em?? Lets just say I've never seen the reason for all the following behind Dyna flight. I believe it's as over rated as they come and maybe 4fps and half a step above FF.

With these large performance differences you have to take other things in to consideration. As in TUNING.

There's alot of people out there that tie excellent strings. But I stick with people that test material for material, wear for wear, and take in other considerations other than speed (like silence) as with everything else. There's a happy medium you need to find that suits your niche. All it really takes it not enough prestress or 4-5 more loop finishing twists on one end versus the other to throw balance of harmonics off on a string.

Chad "LBR" Weaver of Champion bowstrings ties a great string. Rob "papabull" Williams does as well (but these days he doesn't tie anymore) Two of my bows sport strings tied by Rod Jenkins. Rod ties one of the best in the business in my honest opinion. But I have a buddy I met  when I was living out in Texas who is constantly testing this against that, material for material and everything in between. Rick Barbee tests performance, decible levels, strength per strand, abrasion resistance and over all feel and performance. S-4, 450, 450 plus (or premium) 8125, dynaflight, dyneema spectra weave, ultra, astro flight... You name it he's tested it.

He's been on me for about a month now,"Man you NEED to try an astro flight string! You're going to love this stuff!!."

My answers always been "Dude not only are the 8125s you tied me still on my bows, the back ups are identical and still ready to go! I don't need a new string."

Well the other day one of them thick envelopes shows up in the mail. And sure enough it's strings for my curves. Weeelllll...... one of my main strings IS showing a lil wear.. maybe I should atleast see what he's fussin so much about.

I tell ya what he's fussin so much about..... I just traded a set of 55/75 blems to tikki for a set of 35/55 blems. and now all a sudden I need the 55/75s BACK! I literally had to remove 75grs of point wieght out of my tips in order to stiffen the paradox of the arrow enough for true flight.

This new Astro flight is some serious string material yall. Now I don't know about it's longevity yet (Rick says it should last as long or longer than the rest) But it seems to be a softer, more supple strand per strand string. It's no where near the harshness of 450 or even 8125. It seems to retense with less noise than any of the steel strings.

Since switching to 3 under I have been diligently working on everything from release to brace in the attempt to get that 3 under noise completely removed from my bows. This string material is quieter (thats plus one numero uno wid me). But I get sold on sumpin and I sit down on it. As in I shot 450 plus for 8yrs..... and the only thing that got me to switch off it was a halo served 8125..... I've shot 8125 for 4 yrs...... until now........... 

And as the thread title suggests. here we go again.... now I gotta RETUNE my goto set up.

So yall beware... unless ya wanna be retuning your set up right here before bowseason opens?? stick with the string ya got on ya bow now.


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## BkBigkid (Aug 21, 2010)

Ewwwww, 
Man that is a tough decision. Leave the old strings onthe bow or go with the new ones that is giving you more speed. 

Less than a month to go I am not sure if I would have changed string materials.
Setting up a bow is not that difficult to get true arrow flight the practice and skill of knowing what a setup is going to do is what takes some time to learn.  Ifn your setup is shooting flatter now then your aim points have changed for different yardages and your brain has to recalculate. That could be a factor this late in the game. Of course with your knowledge it should only takes a few practice sessions to dail back in. 

You did bring up some things in string making that I had given minimum thought to. 
Thank you for bring some insight to the art of string making. I only use b-50 on my bows even if they can handle the fast-flight stuff. I know I am giving up some fps.  Thats ok because it reduces slot of the hand shock felt in the bow.


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## ky_longbow (Aug 21, 2010)

Lance- man i feel ya, i just put a 8 strand D10 string on a 50# black creek banshee longbow ...............went from 2016 and GT 3555 to a GT 5575 with 125 broadhead ( zwickey & magnus II )on a short adapter.........shoots like a stinking dart......... go figure.............


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## Barry Duggan (Aug 21, 2010)

So, free horsepower ain't always free, if the cost is more arrows.


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## LanceColeman (Aug 21, 2010)

yea. and of all bows this is NOT the one I needed shootin quicker. It's the top of the shelf already on the FPS range. At normal deer killing ranges the speed difference is minimal as far as target impact.. but yall know when you gain a bit or enough to get an eye feel for it it has a maximal effect on the psyche. There's something baout that little extra "UMPH!" when it smacks the target.

It takes around 10fps at 20yds before the eyes and ears can start to distinguish the difference in speed. Buy it doesn;lt take no rocket scientist to figure out my arrows just went weak.

He sent them for a couple of my bows.. So I definately need to get one on the slowest of the lot because It's gotten to where I won't shoot it very far in practice because it's cast is too different from the other two I shoot the most. I love shootin that bow.... but I hate the fact it messes up my eye too much out past that certain point. So it winds up being a form work and close range play bow.

BK,

I dunno man..... a straight limbed longbow is about the most handshock type bow I've ever shot..... and to me they seem alot less shocky with a steel string on them than b-50. B-fiddy seems to allow the limbs to go pass brace on the return after release actually giving you even more vibration to deal with. It re transfers it back in to the limbs instead of down the string.

I've had B-50s and FF strings drop as much as 2" of brace hieghth in a single hot weather bow fishin trip. Thats entirely too much a variance for me to wanna deal with.

This astro flight stuff is responding like 8125 (only it seems softer) as in I braced her, checked brace, ran 50 arrows through her, checked brace (no  movement) left her strung over night, checked her this a.m. (no movement) ran 50 more through her, checked her again (no movement) just came back in and checked her again and the brace still has not moved from the original set when I strung the bow in the first place. Lots of that has to do with the string material....... rest has to do with the builder pretty much prestretched and  stressed fire outa the string before he sent it.


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## BGBH (Aug 21, 2010)

I like fiddlin with stuff to but this close to season I'd put my old string back on & mess with your new one when deer seasons over.


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## Barry Duggan (Aug 21, 2010)

I'm with you on that thought Bluegrass, except where Lance was talking about working with one of his slower bows. I'm also trying, real hard, to completely ignore everything he said...for the time being.


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## BkBigkid (Aug 21, 2010)

To close to be retraining what you learned all summer, 
Keep in your head for next year... LoL


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## LanceColeman (Aug 21, 2010)

BkBigkid said:


> To close to be retraining what you learned all summer,
> Keep in your head for next year... LoL



NAH!! one of my biggest issues with this 3 under was the occasional diver.. yea thats right diver NOT flyer. cuz it aint flyin..... it's hittin an inch low! lil mo ffzz!! may help.


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## RogerB (Aug 22, 2010)

Lance,
I am not arguing with you, just because I don't know enough and am not a good enough shooter to tell the difference, but here is a post from the Black Widow forum:


"TESTING STRINGS 
In response to a lot of interest in various string materials and “skinny” strings, we have performance tested several materials in both conventional and “skinny” versions to compare to our standard 14 strand DynaFLIGHT 97. Ray Caliendo (our milling machine guru and longtime string maker and expert) made the strings used for testing. The “skinny” strings had about half the strands but were padded in the loops to protect from what I call the “piano wire effect” that can split the limb tips. The center servings were also padded to get the desired arrow nock fit. For our purposes here, no silencers when installed. 

Here is our testing protocol: For the recurve test, we selected a 60" PSA X. We chose to do the tests at a 30" draw (rather than 28") to maximize any benefit gained. The bow was braced at 8 1/ 4" and weighed on our electronic digital scale (0.1 increments) and it weighed in at 57.5#. Then we built an arrow that weighed exactly 517.5 grains (9 x 57.5#). (A higher brace would give a slightly higher draw weight and thus require a heavier arrow.) The shooting was done with our shooting machine. For each test, the bow was drawn with the winch to exactly 30" and the mechanical release was then activated. Each test requires only two or three shots through the chronograph. The readout will never vary more than one foot per second. If the first and second shots read the same (which is usually the case), we record this fps number. If not, we shoot a third arrow and record the two-out-of-three number. Since our chronograph does not measure in tenths of fps, our method is only accurate to within plus or minus 1/ 2 fps. A different chronograph might read faster or slower, but our testing protocol would produce the same consistency. 

PSA X 60" RECURVE 57.5# @ 30" 517.5 grain arrow 

DynaFLIGHT 97 14 strand 196 fps 

Ultra Cam 16 strand 195 fps 

Ultra Cam 8 strand 195 fps 

Excellerent 12 strand 195 fps 

Excellerent 8 strand 195 fps 

Astro Flight 20 strand 195 fps 

Astro Flight 10 strand 195 fps 

Trophy 20 strand 196 fps 

Trophy 12 strand 196 fps 

D 10 18 strand 197 fps 

D 10 12 strand 196 fps 

We then tested a 60" (so we could use the same strings) PL X longbow of exactly the same draw weight at 30" with basically the same results, only 2 to 3 fps slower than the recurve. A 64" longbow would have been more suitable for a 30" draw and would have reduced the difference between the longbow and the recurve. We also compared speeds with and without the typical four Spider string silencers with a difference of 2-3 fps (2 fps on the DF 97}. 

As you can see, it’s a washout. I was not surprised because I had tested an endless “skinny” string some time ago with the same result. Even though these 60" “skinny” strings (with padded loops and center serving) weigh 20 to 30 grains less (depending on which strand material), fewer strands allow more stretch or elasticity and we thus loose what we hoped to gain. The conventional D 10 string was 1 fps faster for both the recurve and longbow. 

Well, there may be those who question these numbers and feel that the “Old Man” has gone over-the-hill and senility has set in. I would simply suggest “Grumpy” old man. So here’s the deal: Since I’m “from Missouri”, bring your Black Widow bow to Missouri with your properly padded “skinny” string and “show me”. Using the scientific testing method described above (you may determine the brace height), if you can achieve an additional 3 fps over a standard 14 strand DynaFLIGHT 97 string, we will build you a new Black Widow bow of your choice. BUT.... if you can not achieve an additional 3 fps, you must leave your Black Widow bow with us, OR.... pay for a new Black Widow bow that we will build for you. SUCH A DEAL! If there is a better mouse trap, we want to know about it! (This offer will expire 12-31-2010.) 

I have also resurrected a post from the past entitled "TESTING & COMPARING BOW PERFORMANCE” for you to review. 

Let me summerize: PHYSICS is PHYSICS is PHYSICS.... and you can’t get around it. 

Ken Beck"

The offer is still valid, and I don't think anyone has won a bow from them yet.

I build strings from old Fast Flight (which I still like, but it is not as stable some of the newer materials), D97, and B50 (only for my older bows). and I can tell alittle difference in FF and D97 (But then I can't say the strings are "exactly" the same, such as nock fit and nocking point). So I do believe there is some tuning difference between the two (exactly what I don't know). 
An arrows paradox is determined by many things, but in this example (if you believe only the string material and number of strands are different and everything else is the same) of only the string being different it is how hard and were in the power stroke  the string is pushing against the rear of the arrow (which also determines the arrows speed).
I am sorry as I don't mean to argue with you (even though it sounds as if I am) but I don't believe that having to go from 3555s to 5575s and drop 75gr of point weight is due to increased arrow speed (that one string will push that much harder against the arrow than another string will). But I do believe you had to.
So, If you believe what Black Widow says, it would make sense to use the string material that tunes the best and is the quietest on each bow; and if you don't, go win a new bow.


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## LanceColeman (Aug 22, 2010)

Hey Roger,

I heard all about that. And as Rick Shoots a widder I believe he was right dead in the center of it. he and Ken done alot of talking back and forth via phone but I would be lying to you if I said what was came about it or happened from it because I am not sure. I'll see if I can get Rick to chime in.

One thing I do know is no matter who the tester, how discipline you TYPE the enviroments and mediums were kept to tolerances..... regardless of what anyone says. simple physics dictates a 10 strand string and a string wieghing TWICE it's mass (a 20 strand of the same material) will NOT shoot the same fps. if everything else is kept equal.

I understand whatcha sayin Rog and when test variables are added it can look like contradicting evidence. Keep in mind I did nopt go from one shaft to the other AND remove 75grs of point wieght. I removed 75grs of point wieght to KEEP from having to go up to 55/75s because I just swapped most all of them off.

I'll see if I can get Rick to join and give his input. But I honestly believe from what I remember as was told a busy work schedule, an awful long drive from Abilene to Missouri, and an already brand spankin new widow in his arsenal Were Ricks reasons for not going.  

All my chronos are borrowed or given away now (really don't care to see tham come back either. I got wrote down what I need to write down) But when you do nothing more than change strings, keep brace the same, place same silencers the same place... and something changes..... what else is it? As far as me goignt o Missouri?? Why?? I mean Widders are OK bows. but I would be trading down.


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## RogerB (Aug 22, 2010)

I certanly respect both what you and what Rick would have to say on the subject, and I totaly agree that when I change from a FF string to a D97 string or from fat to skinny, my bows shoot different and I have to retune. I would have gone to my grave saying a skinny string (because of the weight difference) was considerably faster than fat ones and that was the reason I had to retune. If that is not the case, do I know why, no I don't. Just thought it was interesting what BW had to say and it is the only test I have seen numbers on. It is even harder to understand how going from one to another string material (if both strings are of roughly equal weight and stretch) can effect a bow that much. I do believe that the main reason modern low or no streach string material is faster than B-50 is the lack of streach of the string upon release rather than the weight of the string. The best shooting bow I have ever had in my hand was a WARF with a 9 strand D-97 string on it, broke the string (stupidity on my part) and put a 10 strand FF on it; and it has not shot as good since (got to build another D-97 when I get time).
I misunderstood about the going from 3555 to 5575, sorry.
I also agree Widows are nice bows, but I will stick with my WARFs and Dalaa.


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## Rick Barbee (Aug 22, 2010)

Hey there Gawgia folks. 

I'm not going to try to post all of the details about the string testing, and the challenge thrown out by Ken Beck at Blackwidow. I have the utmost respect for all of those guys even if I happen to disagree with them.

You don't have to be a member there to read the forum, so here is a link to that particular thread for your reading pleasure. I think you'll find it interesting as well as entertaining.

http://www.blackwidowbows.com/forum/thread.cfm?forum=1000&threadid=10407&messages=71

The initial challenge was made by KB on 15-Feb-10.

What I wish for you to follow up on, and believe you will find very interesting are the post KB made on

18-Feb-10 and 23-Feb-10

You can easily see there were changes made, and stipulations/restrictions placed on the strings after his fish were done frying.

In other words - we had to build our string according to his specs.
Now the questions you need to ask yourselves are:

 "Why?" 
& 
"What changed his attitude after frying his fish?"

I want to reiterate - I have the utmost respect for all of those guys even if I happen to disagree with them, so I'm not going to get into a verbal match with them to try and prove something I already know.

I've been experimenting with fast flight string materials, and the "skinny string" concept since the FF materials first hit the scene, and way before it was even thought of to use them on traditional bows by anyone else, I was doing it.

I'm not trying to persuade anyone to use my findings, nor am I looking for a following. Simply put, I am just trying to share with others the things I have found that "work real good" for me, so they might see, and take advantage of some of the same benefits. That's it in a nut shell.

Here is a link to a sample of some of my latest testing if anyone is interested in the read. I think you will find it interesting also

http://www.tradarcher.com/rickbarbee/string_test_2010_1/index.html

Enjoy !!

Rick Barbee


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## Rick Barbee (Aug 22, 2010)

By the way Lance -

Forget trying to retrain your eye to the new found speed.

Instead just up your arrow weight, so your shooting a heavier arrow at the speed you're used to. 

It's a win/win doing it that way.


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## Barry Duggan (Aug 22, 2010)

That's what I was thinking Rick. This may sound stupid, however if the arrow is flying too fast, for me, I don't shoot as well. Seem to loose a little control or something.


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## LanceColeman (Aug 22, 2010)

Barry Duggan said:


> That's what I was thinking Rick. This may sound stupid, however if the arrow is flying too fast, for me, I don't shoot as well. Seem to loose a little control or something.



That mark with me is around the 195fps mark. anything over that these days just kills me. 180-190 is my magic numbers.

Back when I shot tourneys all the time?? My magic number were between 230-240fps. Yea. widda recurve....48#s...5.89gpp sounded like  a pistol goin off. This day and age?? I'd shoot over the top my barn with that. and my barns 25yds behind my target


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