# Making a Short Shotgun



## GunnSmokeer (May 18, 2016)

Interesting article on cutting down a normal sized shotgun with a conventional stock to an NFA-restricted (ATF registration and taxation required) short barreled shotgun.

http://gundata.org/blog/post/lets-make-a-sawed-off-shotgun/

I've cut (hacksawed) the barrel on a folding-stocked combat shotgun down to 12" before. Registered it with ATF first, of course. It was worth it. Losing 6.5" off the barrel made the weapon a lot handier, easier to transport in a duffel bag or backpack, and better for home defense.

I found NO increase in pattern size, though.  My 18.5" cylinder bore (no choke) barrel grouped cheap 00 buckshot at about 2 inches of spread for every 3 yards to the target, and that stayed the same even after the barrel cutting.  I did not notice much more noise, either, although both the 12" bbl and the 18.5" barrel were louder than 26" barrel shotguns.

P.S.  My hacksaw cut came out just a little bit uneven.  I'm not bothered by it, but I'm just saying F.Y.I.   I think it cleaned-up pretty well, using a file for a few strokes and then with some black sandpaper wrapped around a section of 2 x 4 to polish it up.  
Instead of touch-up cold bluing, I used a black permanent marker. It doesn't last long, but it's easy to retouch when the bare metal shows through.


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## rosewood (May 25, 2016)

I have used a dremel, angle grinder with cutoff wheel and a pipe cutter to shorten a barrel.  The angle grinder is great for squaring up the end when finished with a grinding wheel.  Problem with pipe cutter, is it will sort of flare the end, but you can clean it up with a dremel.  Of course the pipe cutter will only work on a barrel without a vent rib.

Rosewood


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## saltysenior (Jun 8, 2016)

interesting that the pattern did not open....I have looked for a while on ideas to make a home defence shotgun shoot a wide pattern in a short distance..


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## cmshoot (Jun 8, 2016)

Why would you want a wider pattern!?   Individual pellets don't perform very well, in terminal ballistic speak.   You need to hit them with as many pellets as possible to get a good result.  

First gunfight I was in, I was using a Rem870 with Winchester 00 buck.  Worked very well.


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## cmshoot (Jun 8, 2016)

double tap


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## rosewood (Jun 9, 2016)

If you want a wide pattern, get a slug barrel.  You shoot shot through a rifled barrel, it will scatter quickly.  I am not sure barrel length is a huge factor on pattern, I think the diameter of the exit of the bore (choke) is more important.

Now, a shorter barrel is going to have a lower velocity than a longer one, so it is possible that since it is traveling faster as it begins to spread, a longer barrel will stay tighter for a further distance, but I have no real evidence to back that up, just pondering the idea.

Rosewood


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## saltysenior (Jun 9, 2016)

rosewood said:


> If you want a wide pattern, get a slug barrel.  You shoot shot through a rifled barrel, it will scatter quickly.  I am not sure barrel length is a huge factor on pattern, I think the diameter of the exit of the bore (choke) is more important.
> 
> Now, a shorter barrel is going to have a lower velocity than a longer one, so it is possible that since it is traveling faster as it begins to spread, a longer barrel will stay tighter for a further distance, but I have no real evidence to back that up, just pondering the idea.
> 
> Rosewood



as the OP stated ,cutting his barrel did not open the pattern....maybe something like a flare gun style would work.


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## cmshoot (Jun 9, 2016)

If you want a wider pattern, you could get a Paradigm GATOR Shotgun Spreader.  It's a modern version of the old Navy SEAL duckbill spreader from Vietnam. 

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/02/06/paradigm-gator-shotgun-spreader/


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## GunnSmokeer (Jun 9, 2016)

I want a 18" diameter pattern, at whatever range I happen to shoot from.

If my aim is true, most of my buckshot pellets will stay in the bad guy's chest.

If my aiming or pointing is off by up to a foot, some of my pellets will miss and some will still hit, thanks to the spread. Some will hit in the torso, but maybe a few will strike the opponent's arms, ears, graze the ribs, etc.

At inside-the-home distances, I can't get any more than several inches of spread, even from a short cylinder-bore gun, if it's smoothbore.   Maybe a rifled slug barrel shooting buckshot is the better way do go for inside-the-home defense, where you might have a 5 yard shot, very unlikely to even have a possible 10 yard shot.


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## cmshoot (Jun 9, 2016)

You're not going to be able to get an 18" pattern at every distance.  

If pellets aren't in the center of the POA, that's because they're traveling at an angle.  The group is going to start small and get progressively larger the further it gets from the muzzle.


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## rosewood (Jun 10, 2016)

I think he was saying he wanted an 18" spread on target, that wasn't saying he thought he could get it.  Implication is that it would be ideal if it were achievable.


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## GunnSmokeer (Jun 11, 2016)

Yeah, "in an ideal world" I'd have the right gun / barrel/ choke/ ammo combination to put an 18" pattern over the bad guy at whatever distance I happen to encounter him.

If I get into a gun battle with him at 100 yards, I want a tight choke.  Think "turkey gun" with good sights.

If I encounter him across the living room of my home, that's an 8 yard shot, so I'd like to get as close to an 18" pattern as possible. If I can get 12" from a rifled slug barrel, that would be OK, but not ideal.  I'm not really happy with how my smoothbore "slug barrel" patterns with buckshot at across-the-room distances. Even with no choke, it's still going to put all pellets in a group the size of a grapefruit, and that means it's unforgiving of poor accuracy. It's easy to miss completely.


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## cmshoot (Jun 24, 2016)

I've done everything I can to my Rem870 to get the pattern as tight as I can.  

Using a factory 14" barrel with a fixed Modified choke.   Sent the barrel to Vang Comp and had them backbore and lengthen the forcing cone.  I run Federal LE13300 loads (reduced recoil, 8-pellet, Flite Control wad).  

I don't wanna clip someone with 1-3 .32 caliber pellets.......I want them to catch all 8 in a tight little area where I'm aiming at.  The more pellets I hit them with, the better chance I have of stopping them.


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## GunnSmokeer (Jul 1, 2016)

then why not use a .30 rifle bullet, soft point or polymer tip, at 2700 f.p.s.?
What advantage does a shotgun have if there's no real "pattern" to overcome poor aiming or pointing?
The .308 semi-auto rife will have less recoil, hold more rounds, extend your effective range by a factor of 5, and still be equally good at dropping big bad felons who invade your home.
THE ONLY advantage I see in the tight-choked shotty for home defense is less muzzle flash. And a flash hider and using ammo with   treated powder can take care of that.

Overpenetration?  Okay, but even buckshot overpenetrates.  And don't compare it to FMJ military ammo. Compare the 12 ga. buckshot to a rapidly-expanding hunting / varmint bullet.

I'd wager that an expanding rifle bullet has a much better one-shot-stop (bang-flop) record than buckshot, for deer or feral humans.


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## northgeorgiasportsman (Jul 1, 2016)

GunnSmokeer said:


> THE ONLY advantage I see in the tight-choked shotty for home defense is less muzzle flash. And a flash hider and using ammo with   treated powder can take care of that.



I don't know about you, but I've seen some pretty impressive fireballs leave the barrel of a 12 gauge in low light conditions.  I would imagine they would be even worse in a short barrel.


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## saltysenior (Jul 2, 2016)

GunnSmokeer said:


> Yeah, "in an ideal world" I'd have the right gun / barrel/ choke/ ammo combination to put an 18" pattern over the bad guy at whatever distance I happen to encounter him.
> 
> If I get into a gun battle with him at 100 yards, I want a tight choke.  Think "turkey gun" with good sights.
> 
> If I encounter him across the living room of my home, that's an 8 yard shot, so I'd like to get as close to an 18" pattern as possible. If I can get 12" from a rifled slug barrel, that would be OK, but not ideal.  I'm not really happy with how my smoothbore "slug barrel" patterns with buckshot at across-the-room distances. Even with no choke, it's still going to put all pellets in a group the size of a grapefruit, and that means it's unforgiving of poor accuracy. It's easy to miss completely.



this states my desires....a real open pattern at close range.   in a spur of the moment,hectic situation,in a room size area when you want to stop someone , i'm not worried about ballistics or muzzle flash.....BB or #2 shot would be my  choice at 5 yrds..


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## Big7 (Jul 2, 2016)

*Nooooo way.*



GunnSmokeer said:


> I'd wager that an expanding rifle bullet has a much better one-shot-stop (bang-flop) record than buckshot, for deer or feral humans.



We don't disagree on much.. BUT..

I'm going to have to bust you on this one. 

ANY shotgun shell will blow the heck out of something at home defence range.

Add to that, a 3 1/2" 00BK 18 pellets is about as wicked as you can get, short of a hand grenade.

I don't like to shoot them in screw in chokes
cause they will destroy the choke.

I have a lil'H&R/NEF (and I do mean little) with
a fixed "regular" full choke. 
Not "super-full" or anything like that.

No modifications (yet) I do plan on tapering the chamber
with a forcing cone reamer..

I DO KNOW that it will essentially blow an 8" ragged
hole in a styrofoam plate at 20 feet. Hardly even looks like a plate after that.

#4BK 3 1/2" has 54 pellets. You don't even want to think about that.

2 1/4 oz #4 "turkey load" is rough on a feller' too..
I will and do shoot those in my 870(s) with screw in chokes.


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## rosewood (Jul 2, 2016)

I think GS was hacked on that comment. I'm with big7 on this one.


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## cgi (Jul 28, 2016)

Big7 knows what they are talking about


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## chase870 (Aug 14, 2016)

cmshoot said:


> I've done everything I can to my Rem870 to get the pattern as tight as I can.
> 
> Using a factory 14" barrel with a fixed Modified choke.   Sent the barrel to Vang Comp and had them backbore and lengthen the forcing cone.  I run Federal LE13300 loads (reduced recoil, 8-pellet, Flite Control wad).
> 
> I don't wanna clip someone with 1-3 .32 caliber pellets.......I want them to catch all 8 in a tight little area where I'm aiming at.  The more pellets I hit them with, the better chance I have of stopping them.



Ever try #1 just curious on the pattern out of a short barrel gun. I like it out of a 28 inch gun with a mod choke and a lengthend forcing cone. On deer it patterns well for me and I have yet to notice a decrease in stopping/killing power of the 27 cal pellets


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## GunnSmokeer (Dec 10, 2016)

*my shotgun*

Don't get me wrong-- I like combat shotguns.

Here's a pic of mine.
12 gauge, 12 shot drum, 12" barrel.

However, based on my experience shooting junk and ballistic material with buckshot, I think a centerfire rifle in a decent caliber with nearly 3000 f.p.s. velocity does more soft tissue damage.

For combat shotguns, I want buckshot if I "hope" to hit the target, but give me some SLUGS if I know I can hit it and just want to be sure it goes down.


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## allaboutshooting (Dec 11, 2016)

*You might find this interesting*

Hevi-Duty HD Penetration Test

September 30, 2013 • Product Tests

It's not everyday that I see a product perform exactly as advertised but that was the case with the new Hevi-Duty home defense shells from Environ-Metal, the makers of Hevi-Shot products.

In this part of my evaluation of this shell I examine the danger of over penetration in a residential setting.

I used 5/8" drywall for the interior portion of the wall,  5/8" fiberboard for the exterior portion and used drywall strips to separate the 2 portions of the wall.  I installed aluminum siding on the exterior.  I did not however place any insulation batting between the walls that would normally be there, nor did I use any Tyvek wrap on the outside under the aluminum,

I fired a shot at the center mass of the wall from 7 yards per protocol for this type of test. I used a Remington 870 with a 18.5" cylinder bore barrel and an ATI Scorpion Tactical stock, a somewhat typical set-up for a home defense shotgun.

All 30 pellets hit the board in an even pattern of about 18" and penetrated the inside wall. The pellets that penetrated the interior wall "dimpled" the fiberboard wall and then turned to dust. None penetrated the exterior. When I removed the aluminum siding, it was very clear that no damage whatsoever had been done to the exterior wall. Please see pictures below.

I should also add that there is really no discernible recoil from this load fired through the 870. That means that follow-up shots. if necessary. would be easily accomplished. That is very positive since it may be necessary to fire more than one time in the event of multiple intruders, etc.

The low recoil of this load is also very positive when training a new or inexperienced shooter.  They would not be frightened by excessive recoil and would easily gain confidence in their ability to handle a home defense gun.

Lastly, I chose the 870 with the ATI Scorpion Tactical stock because it is adjustable to fit any size shooter and has the best ergonomics I've seen on any tactical stock. The ATI stock and Hevi-Duty HD shells is a great combination and one that I would recommend anyone consider for home defense.

You can access the pictures by going to the site and searching for the article.

The latest Hevi-Shot catalog also has one of my pictures in it to demonstrate the effect.

Thanks,
Clark


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