# Can you Lose your Salvation?



## rjcruiser (Jun 4, 2009)

I know that this has been discussed in many a thread, but I read this and it brought encouragement to my own life.  It is a good summation and why I believe my Salvation is secure.

This is not to stir the pot and say yes or no...just an article of encouragement to those that are truly saved.



Can You Lose Your Salvation?

Tuesday, Apr 28, 2009 

(By John MacArthur)

Today’s article comes from a booklet John wrote entitled, Is Your Salvation Secure? The entire booklet can be read here.

For many years people have debated the issue of whether a Christian can lose his salvation. Some within Christendom believe you can lose your salvation; others say you can’t. That, perhaps more than any other single doctrine, has been a dividing issue in the church. How sad that is, because the Bible is clear about the matter.

It is surprising that many Christians would deny or ignore the straightforward presentation of the doctrine of security in Romans chapter 8. There are other texts in the Bible that discuss the security of the believer, but none are as pointed as Romans 8:28-30. We find in those verses that everyone who has been redeemed by Jesus Christ, without exception, will be glorified.

The key phrase in this trilogy of verses is at the end of verse 28: “called according to His [God's] purpose.” We are forever secure because that was God’s purpose. The Son of God and the Holy Spirit intercede for us so that the plan of God might come to pass. So our security is guaranteed not only by the purpose of God, but also by the outworking of that purpose through the intercessory ministries of the Son and the Spirit.

The phrase “called according to His purpose” helps us to understand verses 29-30, which explain God’s purpose: “For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.”

God causes all things to work out for the believer’s good, which is “according to His purpose.” There is no other way to explain why He does that; He simply wants to. God is free to make whatever decisions He wants. And He sovereignly chose for all things to work together for the good and glory of those who are redeemed. Nothing can change that.


http://www.shepherdsfellowship.org/pulpit/Posts.aspx?ID=4189


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## addictedtodeer (Jun 4, 2009)

"_He sovereignly chose_"

That is the key is God allowed to be God?


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## gtparts (Jun 4, 2009)




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## Huntinfool (Jun 4, 2009)

This is just one of those that is entirely too complicated to fully understand IMO.

Can someone who claims salvation walk away from God?  Absolutely, 100%, without a doubt YES!

Was that "Christian" truly saved in the first place?  That I cannot answer.  I have no way of knowing.

I do think that once you have given yourself over COMPLETELY to Christ, he is irresistable.  Problem is, there are few who truly do that and so we question whether they were truly saved in the first place.

I tend to believe that, yes, you can lose your "salvation".  I put it in quotes because I think that many people commit what they think is their entirety to Christ, but hold something back.  I've seen many of those walk away from Christ and so I would say they lost what they thought was their salvation.

I don't think there is any way for us to really know the answer to this question....I just don't.

Because I'm a bigtime "free willer", I tend to lean in the direction of people having the ability to walk away...and I don't think it's quite as clear as is written above.

In any case, I don't see why it's important if I'm honest.


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## christianhunter (Jun 4, 2009)

GOD'S WORD does not return void."According to HIS purpose",goes right along with a mailing I received about an hour ago.Roman's has alway's been a Book of encouragement for me.As has The entire Bible of course.


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## rjcruiser (Jun 4, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> In any case, I don't see why it's important if I'm honest.



HF...I appreciate your openness and honesty...and this thread was not to debate or step on this ant bed as it has been discussed/debated before.

So...I won't debate, I'll only answer your question above.


To me, it is important because it gives me assurance.  Assurance that I can never screw up enough that the Lord will let me go.  Assurance that if and when I die, I know I'm going to spend eternity with Jesus Christ.  I never have to second guess whether or not I've done enough...I rest on the fact that Jesus did everything for me.  All I have to lay down my pride of wanting to do it on my own and  accept His free gift.


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## Lowjack (Jun 4, 2009)

I think we first need to establish , whether Salvation is yours to begin with, Simply The Savior's name is "Yeshua"Which literally means His Salvation and since salvation is a gift of God not by works It is His Salvation and not yours to gain or to lose.


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## thedeacon (Jun 4, 2009)

"By transgression Judas fell"  He had to be in something to fall out and yes I do know that he lived under the law of Moses and not the New Testiment dispensation. If you can use the thief on the cross then I can use this.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 4, 2009)

Please especially note verses 10 and 11 below.

1Peter 1:
8For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 
9For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. 
10Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 
11for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you. 
12Therefore, I will always be ready to remind you of these things, even though you already know them, and have been established in the truth which is present with you. 
13I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling, to stir you up by way of reminder


*The above verses and Romans 8 are not in conflict.  Both thoughts are God inspired.  Both thoughts belong together.  God's word cannot be used against itself.  They complement each other.

"be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble........................in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you"


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## Jeffriesw (Jun 4, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> I know that this has been discussed in many a thread, but I read this and it brought encouragement to my own life.  It is a good summation and why I believe my Salvation is secure.
> 
> This is not to stir the pot and say yes or no...just an article of encouragement to those that are truly saved.
> 
> ...





rjcruiser said:


> HF...I appreciate your openness and honesty...and this thread was not to debate or step on this ant bed as it has been discussed/debated before.
> 
> So...I won't debate, I'll only answer your question above.
> 
> ...


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## Dominic (Jun 5, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Can You Lose Your Salvation?



Yes that's whay I keep mine in a very nice chain wallet






Unless I'm fishing then I put it in a dry bag


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## Jeffriesw (Jun 5, 2009)

Dominic said:


> Yes that's whay I keep mine in a very nice chain wallet
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Well, Aint you just spiffy


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## Madman (Jun 5, 2009)

Once you "come to Christ" do you lose your free will?


        “The anvil is not afraid of the hammer.”

  Charles H. Spurgeon


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## Huntinfool (Jun 5, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> HF...I appreciate your openness and honesty...and this thread was not to debate or step on this ant bed as it has been discussed/debated before.
> 
> So...I won't debate, I'll only answer your question above.
> 
> ...




Yeh, that's kind of why I say it's too hard a subject to really get your hands around.  I have the same assurance.

I guess, for clarity, I don't think you can "LOSE" your salvation....but I do believe you can certainly "Walk Away" from it.  You can "refuse" it so to speak.

What I'm getting at is that just because you accepted Christ at some point does not, IMO, mean that you are eternally his unless you continue in that relationship willingly.  He will not hold you captive in a relationship with him.  Does that make sense?

I agree.  You cannot do anything to make him refuse you.  That is clear.  I think where I would differ with some is that I DO believe that you can walk away.  He will not do the moving away...but we certainly can IMO.


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## formula1 (Jun 5, 2009)

*Re:*



Huntinfool said:


> What I'm getting at is that just because you accepted Christ at some point does not, IMO, mean that you are eternally his unless you continue in that relationship willingly.  He will not hold you captive in a relationship with him.  Does that make sense?
> 
> I agree.  You cannot do anything to make him refuse you.  That is clear.  I think where I would differ with some is that I DO believe that you can walk away.  He will not do the moving away...but we certainly can IMO.



I agree.  My take is that it is 'almost' impossible to lose your salvation.  God will never refuse you if you come to Him, but you can walk away by your own choice.   Otherwise, why would Jesus have said this:

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Or why would Paul say this:
Hebrews 6:
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

I would therefore say, be assured in your salvation, but always continue in your relationship and love of the Lord.


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## rjcruiser (Jun 5, 2009)

Dominic said:


> Yes that's whay I keep mine in a very nice chain wallet
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dom....a question for you.


Is the big bag and the big wallet for those who have done more good works and the smaller bag for those who have done less?


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## Toddmann (Jun 5, 2009)

I got a question about salvation that may help with the first question. Are we saved at the beginning or the end of our journey. Is the gift of Salvation, which is from God thru Jesus' death on the cross and His resurrection from the tomb, given to us at the beginning or the end? I do know that Jesus tells His disciples in Matt 10:22, Matt 24:12-14 and Mark 13:12-14 that he who endures/perseveres to the end shall be saved. Paul tells us to finish the race. I just think the relationship with Christ is the salvation not the walk down the ile and I think that there are lots of people who are basing their salvation on what they did according to what religion has established and not what the Bible has clearly told us. I hope this is of some help to someone that is truly seeking Jesus and not somebody just looking for debate or controversy. PTL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## crackerdave (Jun 5, 2009)

Dominic said:


> Yes that's whay I keep mine in a very nice chain wallet
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 

 Betcha an "amen" and four hail Marys - this will evolve into a debate anyway  -  in spite of the op's original intention.  With a thread title like that,it's an automatic.


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## Dominic (Jun 5, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Dom....a question for you.
> 
> 
> Is the big bag and the big wallet for those who have done more good works and the smaller bag for those who have done less?



Duh 

Yes


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## THREEJAYS (Jun 5, 2009)

formula1 said:


> I agree.  My take is that it is 'almost' impossible to lose your salvation.  God will never refuse you if you come to Him, but you can walk away by your own choice.   Otherwise, why would Jesus have said this:
> 
> Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
> 
> ...





Toddmann said:


> I got a question about salvation that may help with the first question. Are we saved at the beginning or the end of our journey. Is the gift of Salvation, which is from God thru Jesus' death on the cross and His resurrection from the tomb, given to us at the beginning or the end? I do know that Jesus tells His disciples in Matt 10:22, Matt 24:12-14 and Mark 13:12-14 that he who endures/perseveres to the end shall be saved. Paul tells us to finish the race. I just think the relationship with Christ is the salvation not the walk down the ile and I think that there are lots of people who are basing their salvation on what they did according to what religion has established and not what the Bible has clearly told us. I hope this is of some help to someone that is truly seeking Jesus and not somebody just looking for debate or controversy. PTL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Both work for me


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## Hardwood (Jun 5, 2009)

All I know is that what Jesus gave to me will be there till the day I die. I believe once it there, its always there. That don't mean not to try and walk closer to him. But as a sinner, I'll mess up. But my salvation will always be there.


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## crackerdave (Jun 5, 2009)

Hardwood said:


> All I know is that what Jesus gave to me will be there till the day I die. I believe once it there, its always there. That don't mean not to try and walk closer to him. But as a sinner, I'll mess up. But my salvation will always be there.



Amen,Hardwood.


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## Lowjack (Jun 6, 2009)

Madman said:


> Once you "come to Christ" do you lose your free will?
> 
> 
> “The anvil is not afraid of the hammer.”
> ...



NO, You have fulfilled your free will.
Free will is to be able to choose wrong and right, you chose Christ you have chosen right.


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## Madman (Jun 6, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> NO, You have fulfilled your free will.
> Free will is to be able to choose wrong and right, you chose Christ you have chosen right.



So if you chose Christ and still have free will does that mean you have the ability to someday deny christ?


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## crackerdave (Jun 6, 2009)

How do you mean "deny?" Say He never existed,say you changed your mind, ............. not sure what you mean,Madman.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 7, 2009)

Freewill only exist in the mind and heart of the one who does not live for Jesus Christ.
Jesus said:  Not My will but Your will be done.
Paul said:  It is not me who live but Christ who lives within me.

Ideally, all Christians will have given their wills to Jesus Christ.  But many haven't done that yet.  There aren't enough mirrors in the world to make it so if the individual has done it.
We all pretty much still use on own freewill at times that we shouldn't.


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## rjcruiser (Jun 7, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> NO, You have fulfilled your free will.
> Free will is to be able to choose wrong and right, you chose Christ you have chosen right.



Low...for an OT guy, you should know this one well  
How can you choose?

Rom. 3

10as it is written,
         "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 
    11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
         THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; 
    12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
         THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
         THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE." 


So, if there is no one, not even one that does good, how can we choose rightly?


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## gtparts (Jun 8, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Low...for an OT guy, you should know this one well
> How can you choose?
> 
> Rom. 3
> ...



Romans 3:10-12 is a description of the unsaved, my brother. The spiritually dead are accurately described here. It does not apply to those in Christ.


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## Madman (Jun 8, 2009)

crackerdave said:


> How do you mean "deny?" Say He never existed,say you changed your mind, ............. not sure what you mean,Madman.



It is the opposite of “believe it in your heart and confess it with your mouth.”


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## rjcruiser (Jun 8, 2009)

gtparts said:


> Romans 3:10-12 is a description of the unsaved, my brother. The spiritually dead are accurately described here. It does not apply to those in Christ.



Aren't we all unsaved/spiritually dead at one point?

What makes us spiritually alive?


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## Ronnie T (Jun 8, 2009)

I thought I'd move this down for some to take another look at.




Ronnie T said:


> Please especially note verses 10 and 11 below.
> 
> 1Peter 1:
> 8For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
> ...


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 8, 2009)

no one can take me out of His hand....  that includes me...

DB BB


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## Ronnie T (Jun 8, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> no one can take me out of His hand....  that includes me...
> 
> DB BB




You can take you out of His good grace.
If you don't believe that, you are not a studier of His complete word.  It might not can happen to you because your faith has sealed you into living for Christ.  But it can happen to others.
It's a biblical teaching. Practically none of Israel reached the promised land.  Even after God promised.  God didn't fail Israel, Israel failed themselves.  That very example is used in the N.T. for mine and your study.

Satan doesn't have the power, but you do.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 8, 2009)

Read what Jesus had to say to some churches in the first two chapters of Revelation.


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 9, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> You can take you out of His good grace.
> If you don't believe that, you are not a studier of His complete word. It might not can happen to you because your faith has sealed you into living for Christ. But it can happen to others.
> It's a biblical teaching. Practically none of Israel reached the promised land. Even after God promised. God didn't fail Israel, Israel failed themselves. That very example is used in the N.T. for mine and your study.
> 
> Satan doesn't have the power, but you do.


 
So you have control of Salvation? Interesting.... I tend to believe that Salvation is of God, and nothing by me...

Yes you can not be in God's will, but you are still Saved... Because you will know you are not in God's will, and you will want to get back to being in God's will, if you don't desire to be in God's will then I would say you were never Saved.

You and I have always differed on this topic and probably always will... and that is ok.

DB BB


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## gordon 2 (Jun 9, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Aren't we all unsaved/spiritually dead at one point?
> 
> What makes us spiritually alive?



I hope this answer to your query is helpful.

We are all spritually alive from birth. We can become spirtually dead from grave or great sin, such as adultry, murder, theft, and others...but this depends on our personality.

Although one is spiritually alive from being born again and in the intimate knowledge of will of God, people are spiritually alive in general. 

I think Paul mentions that in his day the Greeks were very spiritual, although they were not jews or christian of course.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 10, 2009)

James 5:19-20

Brethren, (obviously speaking to Christians) if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death(dead soul means hel l), 
and shall hide a multitude of sins.


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## Big7 (Jun 11, 2009)

Yes...you can.
Many do.


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## Big7 (Jun 11, 2009)

Is it true that Christ gave a so-called "assurance of salvation," based simply on professing faith in Him? Scripture asserts the contrary:

"Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" (St. Matt. 7, 21);

(God) "will render to every man according to his works" (Rom. 2, 6);

"Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness toward you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off" (Rom. 11, 22);
"For all of us must appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each may receive recompense for what has been done in the body, whether good or evil" (2 Cor. 5, 10);

"Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence, but much more now in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil. 2, 12);

"For if we willfully persist in sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries" (Heb. 10, 26-27);

"What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save you?...So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead...Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?...You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone...For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead" (St. Jas. 2, 14; 17; 20; 24; 26).

These verses clearly demonstrate that God will judge us according to all our actions, and not by simply whether we "accepted Christ as our personal Lord and Savior." There is no guarantee of salvation, perseverance in faith and good works are required until the end.

"Have you been saved?" asks the Fundamentalist. "We are redeemed," is our answer, "and like St. Paul we are working out our salvation in ‘fear and trembling,’ doing good and voiding evil, waiting for judgment day with hope when we will be judged according to all our works."


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## formula1 (Jun 11, 2009)

*Re:*

So by what work will you obtain salvation? And what work will you tell God on that day that you performed to earn His salvation?

Who redeemed you and how are you redeemed? How do you know?


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## rjcruiser (Jun 11, 2009)

Big7 said:


> Is it true that Christ gave a so-called "assurance of salvation," based simply on professing faith in Him? Scripture asserts the contrary:
> 
> "Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" (St. Matt. 7, 21);
> 
> ...





You know...I think your post has more colors in it than Joseph's coat

Big7....you and I will never agree on this one, so rather than step on the ant bed.....I'll leave it alone.


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## wholenotem (Jun 11, 2009)

*can you lose your salvation?*

I'm new to the forum. I found your question about losing your salvation very interesting to me. I think if we stay within the confounds of the Bible and what the Lord says, I think it clears up a lot of questions; any time we add our two cents in(as Man )we can cloud things up pretty qiuck. With that being said What does the bible say about eternal security of the believer?
Ro 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If we can lose it, that means we had to do something to get it
Ephes.8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

If we can't trust the Lord who can we trust? I don't think God has any trouble holding up His end of the deal. I think maybe our faith could be a little week, and the only way to strengthen it is through the Word!!

  Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 

Could be we don't read our Bibles enough?


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## rjcruiser (Jun 11, 2009)

wholenotem said:


> I'm new to the forum. I found your question about losing your salvation very interesting to me. I think if we stay within the confounds of the Bible and what the Lord says, I think it clears up a lot of questions; any time we add our two cents in(as Man )we can cloud things up pretty qiuck. With that being said What does the bible say about eternal security of the believer?
> Ro 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
> 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
> 
> ...





Welcome...

Hey DBBB/Banjo....Looks like we've got another Bible Thumper joining our side


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 11, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Welcome...
> 
> Hey DBBB/Banjo....Looks like we've got another Bible Thumper joining our side


 

The world is proof that we need a lot more bible thumpers!!!!

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 11, 2009)

wholenotem said:


> I'm new to the forum. I found your question about losing your salvation very interesting to me. I think if we stay within the confounds of the Bible and what the Lord says, I think it clears up a lot of questions; any time we add our two cents in(as Man )we can cloud things up pretty qiuck. With that being said What does the bible say about eternal security of the believer?
> Ro 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
> 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
> 
> ...


 
*AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


and Welcome!!!!!

DB BB


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## Huntinfool (Jun 11, 2009)

First let me say welcome!

Now, let me ask forgiveness as I step all over your post...





> What does the bible say about eternal security of the believer?
> Ro 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
> 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
> 
> If we can lose it, that means we had to do something to get it



NOTHING...and I mean NOTHING can seperate us from the love of Christ.  That is absolutely true and clearly spelled out in this verse.

My question to you guys is this:  How do you get that Love=Salvation?  He loves every single person that he has created.  He loves every single person that comes to him and he loves every single person who does not.  But how do we get from Love to Salvation?  They are related, but entirely different concepts.

We do absolutely nothing to gain his love...just as children do nothing to gain the love of their parents IMO.




> Ephes.8-9
> For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
> 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.



We are saved by grace and not by works.  I don't think accepting something that is freely given by grace is a "work"...do you?  He does the extending to us.  Without that, salvation would not be possible.  So, no, it's not something that we "do"...but it is something that we have to accept.



> Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
> Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.



No man can take my salvation from me....neither can any demon, etc etc.  

Bottom line for me is this.  He will not force salvation on any man.  If we don't accept the free gift of salvation, then he must necessarily force it upon us.  If we have it, then one of two things happened...we either accepted it or were made to have it.

I read it as accepting.


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## Jeffriesw (Jun 11, 2009)

wholenotem said:


> I'm new to the forum. I found your question about losing your salvation very interesting to me. I think if we stay within the confounds of the Bible and what the Lord says, I think it clears up a lot of questions; any time we add our two cents in(as Man )we can cloud things up pretty qiuck. With that being said What does the bible say about eternal security of the believer?
> Ro 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
> 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
> 
> ...





Welcome to the board

Hope you put on the full armor of God


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## wholenotem (Jun 11, 2009)

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 11, 2009)

wholenotem said:


> I'm new to the forum. I found your question about losing your salvation very interesting to me. I think if we stay within the confounds of the Bible and what the Lord says, I think it clears up a lot of questions; any time we add our two cents in(as Man )we can cloud things up pretty qiuck. With that being said What does the bible say about eternal security of the believer?
> Ro 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
> 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
> 
> ...



Could be that your iterpretation of scripture comes from an incomplete knowledge of the will of God and that your points of references are still carnal enough that you see through a glass dimly. 

I would say "our" bibles are read to much in that we all talk what we percieve to be its talk, or "what God says" but few walk and see with their hearts as Jesus said. 

Sometimes a simpleton saint's .02cents has more effect on the world and the furthurance of the Kingdom according to God and what the bible says, than all the smart and seemingly inteligent bible tumpers of seven kingdoms way back to seven generations and more put together.

 Wether it is to fight a war or heal the sick, give me a dirt farmer with .02 cents that comes by prayer on the word instead of a lawyer who made his livelyhood by framing the whole book of it.

Very few bible tumpers have a heart, they usually substitute it for ego, and this is right and this is wrong, but Jesus did not have his Father in his ego,...my .02 cents.

In many ways bible tumpers are not unlike the famed pharasees and especially the scribes. They looked but could not see, they heard but were deaf and their talk which passed a suptuous reverence and rightiousness was mostly evil.

Peace and grace.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 11, 2009)

wholenotem said:


> Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.





> that whosoever believeth



Sounds like we do something to me...doesn't it you?


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## Ronnie T (Jun 11, 2009)

Once again this thread has taken on the "my verses against your verses" mentality.
God's words are not meant to be used against themselves.
All of the pro and con verses belong together.  They must work together.
My take:  There are no powers in this world that can seperate the saved from God.  But, God expects obedience from the saved.  Not works.  Obedience!  Obedience!  Obedience!
Obedience is a choice of the heart.
It is a proof of repentance.
Stop chosing which scripture you will live.
One scripture isn't more important than the other.
My goodness, just be honest with God's word.

Let's see you take two of the above scriptures that seem to conflict with each other
and make them work.  It can be done.


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## rjcruiser (Jun 11, 2009)

gordon 2 said:


> In many ways bible tumpers are not unlike the famed pharasees and especially the scribes. They looked but could not see, they heard but were deaf and their talk which passed a suptuous reverence and rightiousness was mostly evil.
> 
> Peace and grace.



Gordon...while I understand where you are coming from...the Pharisees/Scribes were not at all Bible Thumpers.  They were legalists...who believed in a code of conduct that was required for salvation.  That is not what the Bible says.  

I consider myself a Bible thumper...because I believe in only the Bible and everything I believe must line up with the Bible.  Not some emotional high...not some dream I had last night...not some watchtower society....not some book written by John Smith....not some writings by the ECFs....THE BIBLE!


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## wholenotem (Jun 11, 2009)

Having faith is an equal oportunity for everyone, and that last time I checked, it doesn't require me to lift a finger, but if you feel you need to add something to your salvation ; other than faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, I would sincerely question what I'm believing in.
The thief on the cross could only beg for mercy, is that works?

Lu 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
 40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
 41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.


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## formula1 (Jun 11, 2009)

*Re:*



Huntinfool said:


> Sounds like we do something to me...doesn't it you?




Yes, that indeed is the 'works' that we do, and if I may add, it is an ongoing walk.  Consider these scriptures:

James 2
 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.

What was Abraham's 'work'?  Was it work unto man or work unto God?

Romans 10
 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

What is the definition of belief, according to scripture?

No need for anyone to respond, just think about it!


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 11, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Sounds like we do something to me...doesn't it you?


 

Where does our(The Saved) ability to believe come from?


Where does our(The Saved) Faith come from?


Where does our(The Saved) ability to do Good works come from?


DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 11, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> gordon...while i understand where you are coming from...the pharisees/scribes were not at all bible thumpers. They were legalists...who believed in a code of conduct that was required for salvation. That is not what the bible says.
> 
> I consider myself a bible thumper...because i believe in only the bible and everything i believe must line up with the bible. Not some emotional high...not some dream i had last night...not some watchtower society....not some book written by john smith....not some writings by the ecfs....the bible!


 

*amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## Huntinfool (Jun 11, 2009)

> Where does our(The Saved) ability to believe come from?



God's prompting and our free will.  I believe he gives both.  He makes the first move...we make the second.




> Where does our(The Saved) Faith come from?



the same




> Where does our(The Saved) ability to do Good works come from?



the same...and as our relationship with him grows stronger and closer, our will comes more and more in line with his and good works are a natural outcome of that.


For me, it's all semantics.  A lot of these topics, I think we actually all agree on, we just can't seem to word it the same way and so it appears as though we think entirely differently.


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## wholenotem (Jun 11, 2009)

Ain't sure what canuck 1 is talking about? I believe we all ought to be Spirit  filled ( if that's what he means ) but we shouldn't be ignorant in the Scriptures or  about Gods Word.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Just because you study and quote Gods word that doesn't make you a pharisee.


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## Jeffriesw (Jun 11, 2009)

wholenotem said:


> Ain't sure what canuck 1 is talking about? I believe we all ought to be Spirit  filled ( if that's what he means ) but we shouldn't be ignorant in the Scriptures or  about Gods Word.
> 
> 2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
> 
> Just because you study and quote Gods word that doesn't make you a pharisee.


Nope, I would call it being obedient.


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 11, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> God's prompting and our free will. I believe he gives both. He makes the first move...we make the second.
> 
> the same
> 
> ...


 

So HF, at what point does our "Free will" take a back seat to God's will?

DB BB


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## Huntinfool (Jun 11, 2009)

Well, it gets into the whole two wills thing.  His will will always be done....


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 11, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Well, it gets into the whole two wills thing. His will will always be done....


 

So if God wills you to be Saved, are you going to be Saved?

DB BB


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## gtparts (Jun 11, 2009)

Thought I'd give my short answer.

No!    But, you sure can lose the joy if you don't follow up with a Christ-centered life.


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## Mako22 (Jun 11, 2009)

All Calvinist are liars! 
Man has a free will to accept or reject Christ!
Once saved, always saved!


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 11, 2009)

Woodsman69 said:


> All Calvinist are liars!
> Man has a free will to accept or reject Christ!
> Once saved, always saved!


 
Thanks for that insight...


Hey everyone, did you know since I am a Calvinist, I am a liar??

DB BB


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## Ruger GSP (Jun 11, 2009)

Thats funny this discussion is here right now, because I was just reading this tonight.

1 John 5:10-13
10. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar: because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that YE MAY KNOW THAT YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Thank God I believe the Bible to be Gods word, because of this I may know that I have eternal life. I did not see where it says I only have eternal life while I am in the will of God. If that was the case than every time I sinned, I would have to be reborn again. The Bible talks alot about being born again, but I never read about being reborn again and again and agian.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 11, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> So if God wills you to be Saved, are you going to be Saved?
> 
> DB BB




It is God's will that all people would accept Jesus.
And NO.  They did not and will not.

Acts 17:24"The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 
25nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 
26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 
27that they would *seek God, if perhaps they might grope *for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 
28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.' 
29"Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. 
30"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, *God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, *
31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead." 
32Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some began to sneer, but others 


*No.  God wanted all to repent.
They obviously have not.
Why should they repent, God's going to save them anyway, right?
Wrong.
You're still hand picking verses and totally ignoring others.
Not fair to the Holy Spirit.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 11, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Well, it gets into the whole two wills thing.  His will will always be done....




God's will is not done in all things is it??????

Was it God's will for Israel to build a golden calf and worship it?
Was it God's will for the Priest down in Florida to fornicate with a woman, or was the Priest guilty?

If God's will were always done, things would be much different....... The one person who earlier said he didn't have to lift a finger to live the life of a redeemed sinner wouldn't have said that, if, God always had His way.


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## THREEJAYS (Jun 12, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> God's will is not done in all things is it??????
> 
> Was it God's will for Israel to build a golden calf and worship it?
> Was it God's will for the Priest down in Florida to fornicate with a woman, or was the Priest guilty?
> ...



Amen


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## gordon 2 (Jun 12, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Gordon...while I understand where you are coming from...the Pharisees/Scribes were not at all Bible Thumpers.  They were legalists...who believed in a code of conduct that was required for salvation.  That is not what the Bible says.
> 
> I consider myself a Bible thumper...because I believe in only the Bible and everything I believe must line up with the Bible.  Not some emotional high...not some dream I had last night...not some watchtower society....not some book written by John Smith....not some writings by the ECFs....THE BIBLE!



And I know where you are coming from. The code of conduct you say did it not come from "line up" with the word.

I guess I would say everthing I believe must line up with the church, its full membership, because what I make out, by myself, to be lined up to scripture has alway come short of the mark. I believe that the Word is living and cannot really be pinned down by doctrine. My fellow travellers just don't live in and of the word that way.

The mind of man is very carnal  and when he sets himself up to line up the Word to code or conduct he often does so in the spirit of the law without really knowing it and therefore there is no leaven to his bread. In doing so this man will make war in the name of the Lord, he will celebrate death, thinking himself rightious, yet the Lord asks us to put our hearts to the task of peace and the life that issues from it...


What does it serve a man that he has assurance of salvation, but he knows not Love?


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 12, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> It is God's will that all people would accept Jesus.
> And NO. They did not and will not.
> 
> Acts 17:24"The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands;
> ...


 

I am not hand picking verses....  I just asked a simple question....  

So in your answer God has no power over man?

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 12, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> God's will is not done in all things is it??????
> 
> Was it God's will for Israel to build a golden calf and worship it?
> Was it God's will for the Priest down in Florida to fornicate with a woman, or was the Priest guilty?
> ...


 
For all things work to the Glory of God. God willing and God allowing are 2 different things...

DB BB


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## Ronnie T (Jun 12, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> For all things work to the Glory of God. God willing and God allowing are 2 different things...
> DB BB



"For all things work to the Glory of God"......... True.  Israel worshiping an idol did not glorify God.  Frankly, God's glory was seen when many of those Jew's lives were taken in punishment that very night.

"God willing and God allowing are 2 different things..." Very true, but to far beyond anyone's scope to be able to know the difference.


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## wholenotem (Jun 12, 2009)

*Could be that your iterpretation of scripture comes from an incomplete knowledge of t*

I don't think so, and can you really read your bible to much? I think the more you know about the Lord the better chance we have to become more like Him; and after all isn't that what He wants?


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 12, 2009)

wholenotem said:


> i don't think so, and can you really read your bible to much? I think the more you know about the lord the better chance we have to become more like him; and after all isn't that what he wants?


 

*amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## Ronnie T (Jun 13, 2009)

wholenotem said:


> I don't think so, and can you really read your bible to much? I think the more you know about the Lord the better chance we have to become more like Him; and after all isn't that what He wants?




Absolutely.
Christianity isn't about a person trying to get to heaven with the least amount of effort.  And it isn't about getting everything correct so that God will accept you into heaven.
Christianity is about falling in love as you've never fallen in love before.
It's about being so overtaken with the love and grace and mercy that God has brought through Jesus Christ that you give yourself to Him.

So often on this forum we think we disagree on some issues.  I suspect we disagree on very few things.

I've just returned from a wedding rehearsal for two young adults that are an inspiration to everyone who knows them.
He is Church of Christ.  She is Methodist.  But they are going to be a powerful team for Christ.


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## Lorri (Jun 13, 2009)

wholenotem said:


> I don't think so, and can you really read your bible to much? I think the more you know about the Lord the better chance we have to become more like Him; and after all isn't that what He wants?



I agree with you 100%.  The more you know about God the closer you get and then satan tries to step in and steal you away.  When you think the whole world is against you and you might loose everything if you have God in your heart he will make sure you get what you need and not do without. I learn new things everyday by reading my bible.


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## tell sackett (Jun 13, 2009)

new player here. how big a boy are you? it takes a mighty big one to break the seal of the Holy Spirit


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## Jeffriesw (Jun 13, 2009)

tell sackett said:


> new player here. how big a boy are you? it takes a mighty big one to break the seal of the Holy Spirit



Welcome to the Board


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## tell sackett (Jun 13, 2009)

thanks Swamp Runner, I've been lurking for a while & finally pulled the trigger(although the words of some made me hesitant).I pray I can contribute & show Christ's love.


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## Lorri (Jun 13, 2009)

tell sackett said:


> new player here. how big a boy are you? it takes a mighty big one to break the seal of the Holy Spirit



Welcome glad you are here.  

I don't debate much due to the fact that I can't run with the big boys yet hopefully I will get there one day - I don't think he has what it takes to break the seal of the Holy Spirit - there is only one God and don't see God moving over for anyone - now Satan tries but you have to not give into Satan.


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## Lorri (Jun 13, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Thanks for that insight...
> 
> 
> Hey everyone, did you know since I am a Calvinist, I am a liar??
> ...



I don't mean to sound stupid  but what is a Calvinist anyways.


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## Jeffriesw (Jun 13, 2009)

luckylady said:


> I don't mean to sound stupid  but what is a Calvinist anyways.



This oughta Get good

I'm sorry that wasn't a very good answer. It is just that this topic tends to rile people up on both sides of the fence a bit. Calvanism / Arminism

I am not very good at explaining or typing my thooughts so I will post a link that will explain a lot better than I can.
RJCruiser, Double Barrel BB, Reformed Pastor or Banjo could probably do a better job than me at explaining

Calvanism is a way to interpet the Bible centered around reformed theology. Does God call us? or do we seek him out? 

http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/index.html



According to Calvinism: 
Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the Gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Five Points of Calvinism are easily remembered by the acrostic TULIP 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An Estimate of:
   • Calvin's Character - A must read!
   • Calvin's Work 
     _________________
   • The Closing Scenes of Calvin's Life
   • The Will of John Calvin
   • Calvin's Commentaries 

T
Total Depravity (Total Inability)
Total Depravity is probably the most misunderstood tenet of Calvinism. When Calvinists speak of humans as "totally depraved," they are making an extensive, rather than an intensive statement. The effect of the fall upon man is that sin has extended to every part of his personality -- his thinking, his emotions, and his will. Not necessarily that he is intensely sinful, but that sin has extended to his entire being.

The unregenerate (unsaved) man is dead in his sins (Romans 5:12). Without the power of the Holy Spirit, the natural man is blind and deaf to the message of the gospel (Mark 4:11f). This is why Total Depravity has also been called "Total Inability." The man without a knowledge of God will never come to this knowledge without God's making him alive through Christ (Ephesians 2:1-5).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

U
Unconditional Election
Unconditional Election is the doctrine which states that God chose those whom he was pleased to bring to a knowledge of himself, not based upon any merit shown by the object of his grace and not based upon his looking forward to discover who would "accept" the offer of the gospel. God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and others for ****ation (Romans 9:15,21). He has done this act before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4-8).

This doctrine does not rule out, however, man's responsibility to believe in the redeeming work of God the Son (John 3:16-18). Scripture presents a tension between God's sovereignty in salvation, and man's responsibility to believe which it does not try to resolve. Both are true -- to deny man's responsibility is to affirm an unbiblical hyper-calvinism; to deny God's sovereignty is to affirm an unbiblical Arminianism.

The elect are saved unto good works (Ephesians 2:10). Thus, though good works will never bridge the gulf between man and God that was formed in the Fall, good works are a result of God's saving grace. This is what Peter means when he admonishes the Christian reader to make his "calling" and "election" sure (2 Peter 1:10). Bearing the fruit of good works is an indication that God has sown seeds of grace in fertile soil.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

L
Limited Atonement (Particular Redemption)
Limited Atonement is a doctrine offered in answer to the question, "for whose sins did Christ atone?" The Bible teaches that Christ died for those whom God gave him to save (John 17:9). Christ died, indeed, for many people, but not all (Matthew 26:28). Specifically, Christ died for the invisible Church -- the sum total of all those who would ever rightly bear the name "Christian" (Ephesians 5:25).

This doctrine often finds many objections, mostly from those who think that Limited Atonement does damage to evangelism. We have already seen that Christ will not lose any that the father has given to him (John 6:37). Christ's death was not a death of potential atonement for all people. Believing that Jesus' death was a potential, symbolic atonement for anyone who might possibly, in the future, accept him trivializes Christ's act of atonement. Christ died to atone for specific sins of specific sinners. Christ died to make holy the church. He did not atone for all men, because obviously all men are not saved. Evangelism is actually lifted up in this doctrine, for the evangelist may tell his congregation that Christ died for sinners, and that he will not lose any of those for whom he died!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I
Irresistible Grace
The result of God's Irresistible Grace is the certain response by the elect to the inward call of the Holy Spirit, when the outward call is given by the evangelist or minister of the Word of God. Christ, himself, teaches that all whom God has elected will come to a knowledge of him (John 6:37). Men come to Christ in salvation when the Father calls them (John 6:44), and the very Spirit of God leads God's beloved to repentance (Romans 8:14). What a comfort it is to know that the gospel of Christ will penetrate our hard, sinful hearts and wondrously save us through the gracious inward call of the Holy Spirit (I Peter 5:10)!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

P
Perseverance of the Saints
Perseverance of the Saints is a doctrine which states that the saints (those whom God has saved) will remain in God's hand until they are glorified and brought to abide with him in heaven. Romans 8:28-39 makes it clear that when a person truly has been regenerated by God, he will remain in God's stead. The work of sanctification which God has brought about in his elect will continue until it reaches its fulfillment in eternal life (Phil. 1:6). Christ assures the elect that he will not lose them and that they will be glorified at the "last day" (John 6:39). The Calvinist stands upon the Word of God and trusts in Christ's promise that he will perfectly fulfill the will of the Father in saving all the elect.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This description of the Five Points of Calvinism was written by Jonathan Barlow who acknowledges that not all those bearing the name "Calvinist" would agree with every jot and tittle of this document. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## Jeffriesw (Jun 13, 2009)

tell sackett said:


> thanks Swamp Runner, I've been lurking for a while & finally pulled the trigger(although the words of some made me hesitant).I pray I can contribute & show Christ's love.




I cut my teeth reading Louis L'amour books,

Tyrel, Orrin and Tell Sacket were my heroes growing up!


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## Browtine (Jun 13, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Sounds like we do something to me...doesn't it you?



No. It sounds like we only need to believe what *HE* _did_ for us. Believing is NOT an act or work.


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## Browtine (Jun 13, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> God's will is not done in all things is it??????
> 
> Was it God's will for Israel to build a golden calf and worship it?
> Was it God's will for the Priest down in Florida to fornicate with a woman, or was the Priest guilty?
> ...



It was God's will for Judas to sell Jesus out...

It was God's will for Jesus to be beaten and crucified on a cross... the most shameful death of the day according to the best of our knowledge...

God's old testament people committed murder, suffered through slavery, imprisonment, famine, etc...  

It's not too far fetched for me to believe the scenarios you outlined could very well be in God's will, too. It's not for us to understand. That's where FAITH comes in.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 13, 2009)

Browtine said:


> No. It sounds like we only need to believe what *HE* _did_ for us. Believing is NOT an act or work.




What are your thoughts concerning the verse in James that says:  "Faith without works is dead."


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## Browtine (Jun 13, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Where does our(The Saved) ability to believe come from?
> 
> 
> Where does our(The Saved) Faith come from?
> ...



From the mouth of our LORD...

Mark 10:26-28 (King James Version)

 26And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?

 27And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

 28Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.


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## Browtine (Jun 13, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> What are your thoughts concerning the verse in James that says:  "Faith without works is dead."



The works, both good and bad, of believers will be "rewarded", but won't earn, secure, or undo salvation...


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## Ronnie T (Jun 14, 2009)

Browtine said:


> The works, both good and bad, of believers will be "rewarded", but won't earn, secure, or undo salvation...



Faith without works means there is no such thing as faith without works.


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## tell sackett (Jun 14, 2009)

there has been centuries worth of arguments over James's & Paul's teachings on faith & works. I heard Dr. Adrian Rodgers give the best explanation I've ever heard. Paul was teaching justification before God (the root) , & James is teaching justification before men(the fruit). They aren't fighting face to face, but back to back!!


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## gordon 2 (Jun 14, 2009)

tell sackett said:


> there has been centuries worth of arguments over James's & Paul's teachings on faith & works. I heard Dr. Adrian Rodgers give the best explanation I've ever heard. Paul was teaching justification before God (the root) , & James is teaching justification before men(the fruit). They aren't fighting face to face, but back to back!!



Good observation.


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 15, 2009)

The underline is my emphasis...

DB BB

Ezekiel 36:24-32

 <SUP id=en-KJV-21384 class=versenum value="24">*24*</SUP>For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 
 <SUP id=en-KJV-21385 class=versenum value="25">*25*</SUP>Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 
 <SUP id=en-KJV-21386 class=versenum value="26">*26*</SUP>A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 
 <SUP id=en-KJV-21387 class=versenum value="27">*27*</SUP>And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 
 <SUP id=en-KJV-21388 class=versenum value="28">*28*</SUP>And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. 
 <SUP id=en-KJV-21389 class=versenum value="29">*29*</SUP>I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. 
 <SUP id=en-KJV-21390 class=versenum value="30">*30*</SUP>And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen. 
 <SUP id=en-KJV-21391 class=versenum value="31">*31*</SUP>Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.  <SUP id=en-KJV-21392 class=versenum value="32">*32*</SUP>Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.


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## Jeffriesw (Jun 15, 2009)

tell sackett said:


> there has been centuries worth of arguments over James's & Paul's teachings on faith & works. I heard Dr. Adrian Rodgers give the best explanation I've ever heard. Paul was teaching justification before God (the root) , & James is teaching justification before men(the fruit). They aren't fighting face to face, but back to back!!





gordon 2 said:


> Good observation.



X's 2


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## Huntinfool (Jun 15, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> So if God wills you to be Saved, are you going to be Saved?
> 
> DB BB



He wills us all to be saved IMO.  But there are differences in the "two wills" (see the thing that was posted by Piper a while back, it did a pretty good job of explaining a very difficult topic). 

1) He "wills".....He wants, he desires
2) He "wills".....He causes to happen

Ultimately his "will" will be done.  But that does not require that he force everything that he "wills" to happen.

I realize that I've done a HORRIBLE job of explaining this.  I beg forgiveness.  I hope you follow my thoughts though.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 15, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> God's will is not done in all things is it??????



Ultimately, his will will be done.  He does not cause all things to happen.  But he is fully able to use any situation to accomplish his will.  That does not mean that everything that happens is his will.  Make sense?


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## Huntinfool (Jun 15, 2009)

Browtine said:


> No. It sounds like we only need to believe what *HE* _did_ for us. Believing is NOT an act or work.



as is non-believing.  We choose which non-act or non-work to "do".  How's that?


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 15, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> He wills us all to be saved IMO. But there are differences in the "two wills" (see the thing that was posted by Piper a while back, it did a pretty good job of explaining a very difficult topic).
> 
> 1) He "wills".....He wants, he desires
> 2) He "wills".....He causes to happen
> ...


 
I think I understand where you are coming from....

How do you know that which "will" is which then?




Double Barrel BB said:


> The underline and colors are my emphasis...
> 
> DB BB
> 
> ...


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## Huntinfool (Jun 15, 2009)

I don't pretend to....I trust and obey as well as I can.


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## Madman (Jun 15, 2009)

> Originally Posted by Double Barrel BB
> The underline and colors are my emphasis...
> 
> DB BB
> ...





> Ezekiel 36:22  Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.



Good point. It is quite clear from this passage (22-31), if it stands alone, that God put His Spirit into Israel.  Then the question arises; Does God subject individuals to His will?  He does coerce, Jonah would be an example, but He does not force.  

So if I "fall away" and choose to live this life outside the presence of God and refused to accept His free gift of salvation, would He force me to live in His presence for eternity?  There are numerous references to apostates and such that speak against His desire to force Himself on an unwilling subject.

One argument I’ve heard on the topic is; “Can you NOT be your father’s son”?  I believe the correct answer is: “I will always be my father’s son, but I can refuse my inheritance. I do not have to accept what my father has freely offered me.”

Read up on early church history, there were major discussions on bringing those who had fallen away and denied Christ during times of persecution back into the church.

Can you lose your salvation "as you loose your keys" no, can you reject it, "as in rejecting your inheretance" Yes.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 15, 2009)

> Can you lose your salvation "as you loose your keys" no, can you reject it, "as in rejecting your inheretance" Yes.



Exactly....very well put.


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## Banjo (Jun 16, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Welcome...
> 
> Hey DBBB/Banjo....Looks like we've got another Bible Thumper joining our side



I like Bible Thumpers......


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## Banjo (Jun 16, 2009)

Woodsman69 said:


> All Calvinist are liars!
> Man has a free will to accept or reject Christ!
> Once saved, always saved!



This cracked me up.  I haven't been on here in a while...been busy.

Calvin had more intellect in his little pinky toe.....

Your last two statements totally contradict one another.  If man has a free will to accept or reject Christ....then one can NOT be assured that once saved is always saved. 

Did you know that before the Baptists of the Southern Baptist persuasion....(sorry DBBB and RJ) took over America....it was predominantly Calvinistic?

Calvinism was the predominant Christian doctrine of  salvation during the Reformation and into the 1900's.

Look it up.....You would have been in the minority a couple of hundred years ago.....I will let culture dictate to you which understanding of salvation....Arminianism or Calvinism, produces better fruits.  Look around us.

There.....I done stepped in the ant bed.


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## Banjo (Jun 16, 2009)

I can't resist....here is some reading for you Woodsmen:

Consider first the namesake of Calvinism, John Calvin, the Reformer of Geneva in the 1500's. He was the foremost systematizer of Christian doctrine to his day and perhaps since, the leading teacher of the Reformation, a provider of refuge for persecuted souls in many lands, one of the greatest influences on the western world and of the French language in its modern form, but nevertheless one of the humblest and meekest men who ever lived. The 19th-century French historian Ernest Renan, a skeptic, went so far as to pronounce John Calvin "the most Christian man of his age." And although he is vilified by Arminians today, the Christian historian Philip Schaff rightly acknowledges that "That those who know him best esteem him most"; and that "All impartial writers admit the purity and integrity, if not the sanctity, of his character, and his absolute freedom from love of gain and notoriety."

The Reformers of France were Calvinists. They were the Huguenots. Their devotion to Christ and the gospel was so feared by their enemies that the Roman Catholics mercilessly attempted to forever quench their influence by murdering their leaders in the Saint Bartholomew's Day Massacre in Paris on August 24, 1572.

The Reformers of The Netherlands were Calvinists. Their leaders had received in Geneva, from John Calvin and his successors, refuge from Roman Catholic persecution. These Dutch Calvinists are renown today for having made one of the greatest defenses of the gospel during the Synod of Dort in 1618-19. Abraham Kuyper, one of their successors, served his country as Prime Minister from 1901 to 1905.

The Reformers of Scotland were Calvinists. The first and foremost of these was John Knox, who also had found in Geneva refuge from Roman Catholic persecution. His efforts for Christ and the gospel were so notable that the Roman Catholic queen of Scotland said she feared him more than any other man. His successors , the Scottish Covenanters, have given to the Christian church some of the most valiant examples of unwavering defense and propagation of the truth.

The most notable Reformers of England were Calvinists. So eminent were they in personal conduct that they were called Puritans. They endeavored to fully reform the English Church from the "middle way" and merely political Reformation begun by King Henry VIII. The persecutions they suffered are at length recorded in Foxe's Book of Martyrs. Their successors at the Westminster Assembly in 1643-48 adopted the Westminster Confession, which remains to this day a foremost confession of the Christian church.

The most-notable Baptists of England in the 1600's were Calvinists. Foremost among them were Benjamin Keach, Hanserd Knollys, and William Kiffin. They remained true to the faith after the Arminian Baptists had succumbed to anti-Trinitarianism. And they presented to the Christian church two enduring confessions of faith: the First London Confession of 1644; and the Second London Confession of 1689.

The most notable preachers of Wales were Calvinists. These include Methodists such as Howel Harris and Daniel Rowland, and the Baptist Christmas Evans.

The foremost settlers of New England were Calvinists. This was particularly true in the Massachusetts Bay Colony. They are chronicled in Cotton Mather's Magnalia Christi Americana, which in English is translated Great Things of Christ in America.

The founders of the first colleges in America were Calvinists. Most of the Ivy League schools were begun by Calvinists as seminaries for gospel preachers. And the renowned Log College was another such school.

The most notable preachers of the greatest revival in American history were Calvinists. It was the Great Awakening of the 1740's. Its foremost preachers were the New Englander Jonathan Edwards and the Englishman George Whitefield.

The first association of Baptist churches in America was comprised of Calvinists. It was the Philadelphia Association, from which sprang most of the other Baptist associations in America. It adopted in 1743 the Philadelphia Confession of Faith, adapted from the Calvinistic Second London Confession of 1689.

The founding fathers of the world's largest group of Baptists were Calvinists. It is the Southern Baptist Convention, which today is sadly predominantly Arminian. Its foremost school, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky, was founded by the Calvinist J.P. Boyce.

The most notable missionaries of the modern era were Calvinists. We stress this fact because Arminians misrepresent the truth when they accuse Calvinists of being unevangelistic and anti-missions. Notable Calvinistic missionaries include John Eliot, the first missionary to the American Indians, in the mid-1600's; David Brainerd, another missionary to the American Indians about a century later; William Carey, the first English missionary to the Indian sub-continent; and Adoniram Judson, the first American missionary to the same place.

The translators of the most-highly revered English Bibles were Calvinists. These are the Geneva Bible translated in 1560 and the King James or Authorized Version translated in 1611.

The most notable allegorist of the English language was a Calvinist. He was John Bunyan, author of the allegories The Pilgrim's Progress and The Holy War, penned in the 1600's.

The author of what is perhaps Christianity's favorite hymn was a Calvinist. It is Amazing Grace, penned by the converted slave trader John Newton. Other notable Calvinistic hymn-writers include Augustus Toplady, author of Rock of Ages; William Cowper, author of There Is a Fountain Filled with Blood; and Joseph Hart, author of Come, Ye Sinners.

The most notable preacher since the apostles was a Calvinist. He is Charles Haddon Spurgeon, the "Prince of Preachers," a Baptist pastor in England from 1851 to 1892, most notably at London's Metropolitan Tabernacle. Other well-known Calvinistic preachers include the Presbyterian Samuel Davies, the Anglican J.C. Ryle, D.M. Lloyd-Jones of Westminster Chapel, and the Baptists J.C. Philpot, B.H. Carroll, and Henry Mahan.

The most notable commentator on the Holy Scriptures was a Calvinist. He is Matthew Henry, whose voluminous yet plain and simple commentaries resulted from his expository preaching in the 1600's. Other notable Calvinistic commentators include of course John Calvin, and also the Baptist John Gill, the Reformed William Hendriksen, and all those whose commentaries are published today by the Banner of Truth Trust in Scotland.

The most notable of Christianity's theologians were Calvinists. We here include of course John Calvin, who systematized the theology of Augustine in the fifth century. We include also Herman Bavinck, Louis Berkhof, J.L. Dagg, Charles Hodge and his son A.A., A.W. Pink, William Shedd, Cornelius Van Til, Gerhardus Vos, B.B. Warfield, and Thomas Watson.

Of such are the champions of Calvinism. What a contrast they are to the afore-mentioned modern champions of Arminianism, its tele-evangelists and priests. Let us pray the Lord of the Church will raise up many more Calvinistic champions in His church today!



Deal with it......If you would read and study history, you wouldn't make the types of ignorant statements like the one you made which I quoted above....

walkinginhissteps.blogspot.com/2008/05/calvinism-its-champions.html[/url]


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## gtparts (Jun 16, 2009)

Welcome back, B-jo. 

Hope you , rfpastor, and kidlings are doing well.

You know where I stand as a Southern Baptist and truthfully, it is somewhere between the teachings of Calvin and Arminius. I think, if we are honest, that the very process of salvation is still a mystery, an awe-inspiring confluence of God's perfect will and our yielded will. The condition of our souls, pre-salvation and following are well established theologically and the mechanism is evident in the cross and empty tomb, so I accept the precondition and final disposition without reservation. And I choose not to agonize over the mystery of that blessed instant when I was adopted as a child of God. I just rest in His grace towards me in that moment.

Have a blessed day.

Grace and peace be to you and yours.


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## Banjo (Jun 16, 2009)

gtparts said:


> Welcome back, B-jo.
> 
> Hope you , rfpastor, and kidlings are doing well.
> 
> ...



Greetings gtparts!  We are all well, as I hope you and yours are too.


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## gtparts (Jun 16, 2009)

> Of such are the champions of Calvinism. What a contrast they are to the afore-mentioned modern champions of Arminianism, its tele-evangelists and priests. Let us pray the Lord of the Church will raise up many more Calvinistic champions in His church today!



I commend you on your research and passion, but I see within your post a divisive thread that hinders the cause of Christ.

When  energies are spent on elevating Calvinism or Armininism as being anything, we have lost sight of our calling. If Christ be lifted up (now, as He was then), then men will be drawn to Him. There should be only one banner to which Christians should pledge their fealty, that of Jesus Christ, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

Peace.


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## tell sackett (Jun 16, 2009)

gtparts said:


> Welcome back, B-jo.
> 
> Hope you , rfpastor, and kidlings are doing well.
> 
> ...



amen, well said


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## tell sackett (Jun 16, 2009)

I don't believe the calvinists or arminians got it 100% right God's grace is free to all, but we can't do anything to earn it. One thing for sure though: ".. farther along we'll know all about it.."


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## Banjo (Jun 16, 2009)

gtparts said:


> I commend you on your research and passion, but I see within your post a divisive thread that hinders the cause of Christ.
> 
> When  energies are spent on elevating Calvinism or Armininism as being anything, we have lost sight of our calling. If Christ be lifted up (now, as He was then), then men will be drawn to Him. There should be only one banner to which Christians should pledge their fealty, that of Jesus Christ, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
> 
> Peace.



I see it a little differently...no surprise to you, I know.  I believe all true Christians are "Calvinists" whether they will admit it or not....If you are trusting in ANYTHING other than Jesus Christ to get you into heaven (including a decision you made), you won't make it.  I believe Arminianism promotes a false assurance.....and therefore despise it.  How many good old boys and gals do you know who live like the devil, but believe they are heading to heaven because they walked an aisle and made a decision years back....

Calvinism is nothing more than the clearest expression of Biblical Christianity....for someone to call ALL Calvinists liars....is a slap in the face.....to Christ.


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 16, 2009)

banjo said:


> i see it a little differently...no surprise to you, i know. I believe all true christians are "calvinists" whether they will admit it or not....if you are trusting in anything other than jesus christ to get you into heaven (including a decision you made), you won't make it. I believe arminianism promotes a false assurance.....and therefore despise it. How many good old boys and gals do you know who live like the devil, but believe they are heading to heaven because they walked an aisle and made a decision years back....
> 
> Calvinism is nothing more than the clearest expression of biblical christianity....for someone to call all calvinists liars....is a slap in the face.....to christ.


 

*amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## reformedpastor (Jun 16, 2009)

gtparts said:


> Welcome back, B-jo.
> 
> Hope you , rfpastor, and kidlings are doing well.
> 
> ...




Doing well Brother, thanks for asking.


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## celticfisherman (Jun 17, 2009)

Banjo said:


> I see it a little differently...no surprise to you, I know.  I believe all true Christians are "Calvinists" whether they will admit it or not....If you are trusting in ANYTHING other than Jesus Christ to get you into heaven (including a decision you made), you won't make it.  I believe Arminianism promotes a false assurance.....and therefore despise it.  How many good old boys and gals do you know who live like the devil, but believe they are heading to heaven because they walked an aisle and made a decision years back....
> 
> Calvinism is nothing more than the clearest expression of Biblical Christianity....for someone to call ALL Calvinists liars....is a slap in the face.....to Christ.




In the book of Romans I believe Paul explains really well why he is a Calvinist...

Good point Banjo.


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## celticfisherman (Jun 17, 2009)

tell sackett said:


> I don't believe the calvinists or arminians got it 100% right God's grace is free to all, but we can't do anything to earn it. One thing for sure though: ".. farther along we'll know all about it.."



While I would disagree I have got to say this...

I love your name!!! Those have got to be in my top 10 all time favorite novels to read.


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## tell sackett (Jun 17, 2009)

You mean we won't know all about it? Sorry,I couldn't resist. gt parts said it much better than I could his last two posts. I agree with him 100%.  Come on Celtic, P aul was a calvinist?? That's really streeetching it, but we'll just disagree agreeably  Now, about them Sackett boys,I'm a huge Louis L'amour fan. I've read some of his books a dozen times and I still enjoy them.


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## Jeffriesw (Jun 17, 2009)

tell sackett said:


> You mean we won't know all about it? Sorry,I couldn't resist. gt parts said it much better than I could his last two posts. I agree with him 100%.  Come on Celtic, P aul was a calvinist?? That's really streeetching it, but we'll just disagree agreeably
> 
> 
> Now, about them Sackett boys,I'm a huge Louis L'amour fan. I've read some of his books a dozen times and I still enjoy them.





 You Betcha 

I tell my youngest (19) all the time that he came within about a breath of being named Tyrel


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## tell sackett (Jun 17, 2009)

I would have answered earlier, been at vbs. Swamp, that's kind of scary because I told my wife when she was pregnant with my baby girl that if it was a boy I was going to name him tell sackett. I had her worried about that thing. She must have done some heavy praying for a girl!


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