# The "New" Remington Ultimate



## BarnesAddict

Although I don't own one, nor have I seen one yet, I do know a few things about it.  I own its big brother, the Ultimate Firearms rifle.  The Ultimate which I own does exactly as advertised.  I'm excited for Remington.

Now for those who can't wait to get your hands on the Rem Ultimate, there's a few things you should understand prior to purchasing one.

Although its still a muzzleloader, many things and methods are changed.  These differences do create more work.  The biggest difference will be the ignition system.  With your current production rifles, you place a cap or primer in the rifle and shoot, then after the shot you discard the spent cap or primer.  With the RU, you will be shooting a case, primed with a LRP or LMRP and after the shot, you'll want to save the case to re-prime it.  That creates additional steps, where you'll need to de-prime the case, then re-prime it.  To get the most from your cases, you'll need a primer pocket brush to clean out the primer pockets prior to re-priming them.  There are some hand tools for knocking out and priming cases but, a press works much faster and is easier on the body (hands).  If I'm correct, the RU will use a cut down .308 case, which brings up another step.  The cases that will come with the RU, should be good for about 3 or 4 shots.  After that, there may be some blowback.  The case is pushed up tight against the breechplug nipple by the bolt.  After 3 or 4 times of loading, the inside of the case crushes down inside, allowing some blow back possible.  IF...... this happens, you'll be cleaning the entire action of blowback.

Although Remington hasn't stated, at least to my knowledge, it should be BH209 capable, as is its big brother.  This would save a tremendous amount of cleaning and no crud rings to deal with, no swabbing between shots.  However, swabbing after about the 3rd shot with BH retains better consistent accuracy.

IMO the rifle will be a good rifle and a good long range rifle but...... its NOT a rifle for everyone.  There are more steps involved in shooting and cleaning, of which there is a big difference between what is done with production rifles and the RU.  You'll need the proper length cases or, cut/trim them down yourself.  You'll need to de-prime, clean the primer pockets and re-prime the cases.  It means the possibility of a press, dies, primer pocket brush and rifle primers.

Now...... In NO WAY am I trying to discourage anyone from buying a RU.  What I believe those that are contemplating the purchase, please understand there is more work with the different elements required.  As stated, I'm excited for Remington and hope it does well.


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## Flatone

I look forward to shooting the Rem Ultimate sometime.  I have been shooting the Savage ML10... That gun is amazing!!  I dialed in a load last year using Reloader 7 that was sub MOA at 3300 fps.


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## Bucky T

More power to y'all!

Seems like a lot of work for a gun that is pretty much a single shot high power rifle.  3300fps??  That's faster than a standard .308, .270, .243, 06, etc!


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## NCHillbilly

At some point, I ask, "Why bother with a muzzleloader if it's exactly like a single-shot modern rifle?"


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## FrontierGander

I thought you cut a breech plug using bh209 in your ultimate and had to have it repaired? If its the same breech design as your ultimate, this means bh209 is a no no in this rifle.


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## shdw633

NCHillbilly said:


> At some point, I ask, "Why bother with a muzzleloader if it's exactly like a single-shot modern rifle?"



Because in a lot of states like lower Michigan and Illinois you can't use a rifle but you can use a muzzleloader instead of a shotgun.


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## Flatone

I shoot muzzleloader for 1 reason....  The 7 days before rifle season and the deer go nocturnal.   Killed mountable deer 3 years in a row.  Btw... That was 2300 fps, not 3300....


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## BarnesAddict

FrontierGander said:


> I thought you cut a breech plug using bh209 in your ultimate and had to have it repaired? If its the same breech design as your ultimate, this means bh209 is a no no in this rifle.



Yes I did cut a breech plug using BH209.  Randy Wakman has been bragging up the RU and shooting BH from it.  His remarks are that Remington improved on the Ultimate Firearms breech plug.  Well?  Why wouldn't they if they could?  Remington has a heck of a bunch of engineers.  If they didn't improve it, it must have been perfectly designed in the first place for its intended use.  The only thing I know of different, is the RU uses a .308 case and the UF uses a .45 Win Mag case.  RW states that the RU is made from 416 stainless, which can cut just as bad as any other stainless.  Probably why some builders are using titanium.
What I DO KNOW, is that throughout the production of thousands of UF rifles, very few breech plugs have ever needed replacement.  Also what I DO KNOW, is that the last three breech plug replacements in UF rifles, ALL have been because the shooter was shooting BH.

The UF rifle is designed from the ground up to shoot pellets and now the recommended load is 3 - T7 magnum pellets (180grs).  Yes there are some owners that shoot BH and have outstanding results.  Bob Parker http://parker-productions-llc.myshopify.com/ has two Ultimate Firearms rifles and has shot 180grs volume of BH209.  To my knowledge Bob hasn't replaced a breech plug.  One has to understand that with the UF rifle, its DESIGNED to shoot pellets, which it does extremely well.

As far as the RU goes, I haven't seen a single word from or by Remington, that states it can shoot BH209 or, that they recommend it.  Its advertised that it will handle ... up to.... 200grs of propellant.  Rather that be 4-T7, 4-Pyro.  It certainly can be downloaded and a maximum load isn't necessary.  RW states that some engineer or someone from Remington states it will but, to my knowledge it hasn't been on any site, including Remington's, other than RW stating its an approved propellant.  I've seen no video or targets shot beyond 100yds yet with the rifle.  It may be that RW has to much other work, than to shoot the rifle at 200, 300 or 400 yards.

What I believe so far....... I think that rifle will end up being one heck of a shooter.  Once that rifle makes it into the hands of a few competent shooters, it wouldn't surprise me if it didn't show up at Friendship and maybe even as soon as next spring.  My guess is that someone will put a high quality, long range scope on one of the rifles, then we'll all see what its capabilities really are.

I've said it all along, the RU won't be a rifle for everyone.  Most don't even accept the idea, then there are those who wouldn't consider it merely because it may or may not be BH209 capable.  Most won't like de-priming brass and re-priming it, mostly because they don't want to step out of the box they're in.  That's really what it boils down to.  Most shooters, even very seasoned shooters, don't like change they don't understand or, are just unwilling to step out of the box.

I believe that the shooters who step out of the box and buy one, should put the highest quality, long range scope they can afford on top it.  A 3-9 wouldn't do the rifle justice.  Put a good Leupold VX or Mark on top it and I'd bet she's going to be a great 300yd rifle.  Maybe even further.


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## Bucky T

flatone said:


> i shoot muzzleloader for 1 reason....  The 7 days before rifle season and the deer go nocturnal.   Killed mountable deer 3 years in a row.  Btw... That was 2300 fps, not 3300....



10/4.


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## georgia_home

Also, While In Georgia, you only get the benefit of an extra week. Lengthening your season by maybe 10% or so, is ok.

in many states, ml will as much as double your season. That's a nice increase. 4 weeks to 8 is a nice.



shdw633 said:


> Because in a lot of states like lower Michigan and Illinois you can't use a rifle but you can use a muzzleloader instead of a shotgun.


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## tv_racin_fan

georgia_home said:


> Also, While In Georgia, you only get the benefit of an extra week. Lengthening your season by maybe 10% or so, is ok.
> 
> in many states, ml will as much as double your season. That's a nice increase. 4 weeks to 8 is a nice.



In some states this rifle wont be legal during "primitive" season.


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## shdw633

tv_racin_fan said:


> In some states this rifle wont be legal during "primitive" season.



That's what I was wondering, how may states will allow this during the primitive weapons season or consider it a primitive weapon which can be shot in place of a shotgun in their state.  Kind of like the CVA Electra situation where a lot of states said no to it as a primitive weapon.


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## BarnesAddict

shdw633 said:


> That's what I was wondering, how may states will allow this during the primitive weapons season or consider it a primitive weapon which can be shot in place of a shotgun in their state.  Kind of like the CVA Electra situation where a lot of states said no to it as a primitive weapon.



Only a couple of western states and Penn.  Most states now days allow all modern in-lines and call it a muzzleloading season.  Many states are now starting to allow smokeless propellant during their muzzleloading season.  I "think" Indiana just approved smokeless propellant?  If they allow a closed breech rifle/cap, it will be legal.


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## NCHillbilly

Why even have a "muzzleloader" season, then, if you're shooting basically a breechloading modern rifle burning smokeless powder? I guess I'm weird, I hunt with muzzleloader because I enjoy shooting them, like the smell of burning black powder, and enjoy the challenge of hunting with a <100 yard open-sighted weapon. I hunt with mine during rifle season sometimes.


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## BarnesAddict

NCHillbilly said:


> Why even have a "muzzleloader" season, then, if you're shooting basically a breechloading modern rifle burning smokeless powder? I guess I'm weird, I hunt with muzzleloader because I enjoy shooting them, like the smell of burning black powder, and enjoy the challenge of hunting with a <100 yard open-sighted weapon. I hunt with mine during rifle season sometimes.



I guess we have a choice.  I bought two T/C Hawken rifles last year, one a .50 and the other .54.  I shot the .50 four or five times.  A collector in Dallas bought the .50 and a gentleman in PENN bought the .54.
I guess its just like bow hunting changing from the long bow to recurve, then to compound and now crossbow.
Some hunters are forced into long shots in agricultural areas.  I'm glad we all have a choice.


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## Rainmaker

Every sport or activity has to have boundaries and rules. Unfortunately, there are people out there who consistently push those boundaries and try to skew the rules. 

If I were in charge, they (the ML case-less rifle) would never be allowed in the ML season in Georgia, but neither would scopes and modern inlines. 

The sole purpose of having different seasons i.e. archery, muzzle loader, and modern rifle is truly for the experience of hunting with the different tools. When manufacturers and hunters make the tool more like something else it moves away from what it should be. 

Impatience, selfish nature, greed, whatever you want to call it - it's human nature. There are many, many counts of someone getting MOA 3 shot groups out of scoped inlines. Nothing primitive about that or even challenging. 

And for the agricultural areas where the deer are far away - get closer, and if you can't or aren't successful, well, that's why they call it hunting. 

Nowadays, it's all about the kill. Whatever it takes mentality. 

I know I am in the minority, and all of this is nothing more than how I feel. 

There must be rules.


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## shdw633

Rainmaker said:


> Every sport or activity has to have boundaries and rules. Unfortunately, there are people out there who consistently push those boundaries and try to skew the rules.
> 
> If I were in charge, they (the ML case-less rifle) would never be allowed in the ML season in Georgia, but neither would scopes and modern inlines.
> 
> The sole purpose of having different seasons i.e. archery, muzzle loader, and modern rifle is truly for the experience of hunting with the different tools. When manufacturers and hunters make the tool more like something else it moves away from what it should be.
> 
> Impatience, selfish nature, greed, whatever you want to call it - it's human nature. There are many, many counts of someone getting MOA 3 shot groups out of scoped inlines. Nothing primitive about that or even challenging.
> 
> And for the agricultural areas where the deer are far away - get closer, and if you can't or aren't successful, well, that's why they call it hunting.
> 
> Nowadays, it's all about the kill. Whatever it takes mentality.
> 
> I know I am in the minority, and all of this is nothing more than how I feel.
> 
> There must be rules.



Well, I'm glad that your not in charge.  Why does it matter?  You get twelve deer and no one is telling you how to get them.  I personally like the newer technology and think it is a better thing for the sport due to cleaner and more efficient kills.  You can hunt whatever way you like and what I like about those in charge is they don't push a particular agenda or rules on anyone out there.  Good hunting to you all.


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## FrontierGander

I dont think modern muzzleloading makes shots more ethical because now you introduce scopes, sabots and such which now make folks want to push the limits of 300-400 yard shots which still makes a gut shot, a bad shot.


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## dwinsor

I use to hunt Indiana Hoosier National Forest with a caplock .54 cal Renegade.   Hunted modern gun season and black powder season, It was tough hunting.
     All around me at 1/2 hr before sunrise and sunset especially during opening week, there were shot guns going off with 3 to 5 shots a cycle.
     Every year I would scout different places for turkey hunting.
     Saw a lot of deer shot with slugs in the gut.  Just saying.
     Would they have to restrict shotguns with all that other equipment because of gut shot deer.  Personally I would try to find the people who are making the gut shots and restrict their hunting before fooling with mine.
     I know that would be hard to do, do you think better education of methods and equipment used for hunting would be a better alternative.
    Personally I don't see the majority of states banning Break action guns with scopes and such on them.  There are too many deer tags to be sold, and more and more break Action guns and accessories being sold, good for the economy. 
     I do wish there was some way of curtailing people not qualified to take 300 to 400 yard shots.
     many states have extremely lax harvest numbers for each deer hunter.  Actually I would think that those people taking excessive distance shots would not be very good hunters and probably would not fill a tag, so lets assume they are good enough to shoot twice at those ranges and gut shoot deer.  If they did not make a reasonable effort to recover the deer they would be violating most laws.  I would doubt that at 3 to 4 hundred yards that they would even be able to find the exact spot the deer was standing.  Even If they did unless they were using a quality bullet there would probably be no blood trail.  They could spend their time looking for where the deer was standing and it would I guess be construed as legal.
     I don't think the states with lax numbers of deer per hunter would concern themselves with 2 gut shot deer.   Like I said those hunters gut shooting deer probably don't fill their tag anyway.

I know this seems like it is off topic, but I was addressing 300 to 400 yard shots, I don't think the average person can make those shots regardless of the gun used.


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## Rainmaker

Shdw633, 

Here is why it "matters": (which I stated in my first post as well).

If Georgia is going to have separate seasons - then let them be distinctly separate. 

The new remington ML and the savage ML 10 are nothing more than single shot rifles using a caseless charge. 

They should only be allowed in our regular rifle season, and so should scopes. 

There is very little difference in a cva accura, scoped, using pellets, and sabots and a Ruger American in .308. The Ruger is just a little more convenient. With this example the line is skewed, so why have the ML season? Money - product sales and license. 

Then you have the hunters who make the point that their eyesight is going bad - scopes help them make a better shot. They point out that they are more accurate and effective with the CVA wolf as opposed to a TC Hawken. 

All of that is true. However, I offer this:

I used to play sports as a kid. Everything from football, baseball, track, wrestling, martial arts, rock climbing, and powerlifting. As I grow older I am not able to do some of them, and others I am not what I used to be. Never will. That's life and aging. 

People wanting all the modern conveniences to make it easier is akin to this: What if I still wanted to run the 100m in track? I used to run a 4.3 second 40 yard dash. Maybe I could get the Olympic Committee to either A) hobble or tie the legs of current sprinters to slow them down so I can compete or B) Let me use some sort of bionic skeletal device on my legs to give me more power so I can compete. Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? 

We're only talking one week in Georgia, and it's all about money. I am just saying if they are having separate seasons - then by all means let them be different. 

The remington and savage rifles along with scopes close the gap of that "difference" to where the gap only exists in words and barely in reality.


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## BarnesAddict

dwinsor said:


> ...........I was addressing 300 to 400 yard shots, I don't think the average person can make those shots regardless of the gun used.



The Remington Ultimate won't be a rifle for "the average person".  The average person wants a $250 rifle and a $80 scope, or maybe no scope at all.  They want a rifle that's simple, easy to operate with as little effort as necessary.

The RU price is above what most shooters are willing to spend.  A quality scope for the rifle is higher priced than most are willing to spend.  There will be additional steps required beyond "in the box" shooting, that most will be unwilling to accept.  A person isn't going to spend $1,000 on a rifle and then an additional $1,000 or maybe $1,500 on a scope to be "average".  The person that is willing to spend that much money on a rifle setup, is going to be the person that spends considerable time on the range and with many more rounds fired than an average shooter, or should be.  This person is looking to step out of the box, and to learn new things, including exactly what the rifle's capabilities are and most of all, his/her own.  This includes extended long range shooting.

Now, this doesn't mean that there isn't going to be the less than average shooter who makes bad shot decisions, can't or won't buy the rifle.  That's a part of life and it won't change.  If a person isn't patient enough, or has sense enough to make ethical shots, I wouldn't consider him/her to be average.

It doesn't matter if your a flint shooter, cap shooter or inline shooter.  There are many, many shooters in all those categories that are EXCELLENT shooters and hunters.  They know the capabilities of their rifles and their own abilities, and they use them wisely.  Flint shooters may have a maximum range less than an in-line shooter, BUT rest assured, those guys shooting flint rifles are not just "average" shooters.  They are perfectionists with their chosen rifles. 

I will agree, shooters who have extended long range muzzleloaders and who are not proficient at shooting 300yds, 400yd yards, or more, shouldn't be taking shots at game at those ranges.  But for the shooter who is willing to become proficient, they'll be stepping out of the box with a rifle with much different capabilities than the average $250 rifle.


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## shdw633

Rainmaker said:


> Shdw633,
> 
> Here is why it "matters": (which I stated in my first post as well).
> 
> If Georgia is going to have separate seasons - then let them be distinctly separate.
> 
> The new remington ML and the savage ML 10 are nothing more than single shot rifles using a caseless charge.
> 
> They should only be allowed in our regular rifle season, and so should scopes.
> 
> There is very little difference in a cva accura, scoped, using pellets, and sabots and a Ruger American in .308. The Ruger is just a little more convenient. With this example the line is skewed, so why have the ML season? Money - product sales and license.
> 
> Then you have the hunters who make the point that their eyesight is going bad - scopes help them make a better shot. They point out that they are more accurate and effective with the CVA wolf as opposed to a TC Hawken.
> 
> All of that is true. However, I offer this:
> 
> I used to play sports as a kid. Everything from football, baseball, track, wrestling, martial arts, rock climbing, and powerlifting. As I grow older I am not able to do some of them, and others I am not what I used to be. Never will. That's life and aging.
> 
> People wanting all the modern conveniences to make it easier is akin to this: What if I still wanted to run the 100m in track? I used to run a 4.3 second 40 yard dash. Maybe I could get the Olympic Committee to either A) hobble or tie the legs of current sprinters to slow them down so I can compete or B) Let me use some sort of bionic skeletal device on my legs to give me more power so I can compete. Sounds ridiculous doesn't it?
> 
> We're only talking one week in Georgia, and it's all about money. I am just saying if they are having separate seasons - then by all means let them be different.
> 
> The remington and savage rifles along with scopes close the gap of that "difference" to where the gap only exists in words and barely in reality.



You and many others only look at Georgia when you are making your statements, rightly so as this is where you do your hunting.  However; many go beyond Georgia when they hunt, like Colorado and Illinois, etc., for which this gun is excellent for.  I went to Illinois with one of my friends from Georgia and by the end of the hunt he stated that Illinois deer are stupid because they don't run for the woods, they run into the open field.  What he failed to understand is that the deer have learned the capabilities of a shotgun and know that once they are out beyond the 200 yard range of the woods they are pretty much safe.  This gun would change that.  A study in Maryland showed that bucks would bed right under stands during the offseason but during the season would stay 150 to 200 yards away because they knew the shotguns capabilities were shorter than that.  This gun would change that as many states do not allow rifles but do allow muzzleloaders during shotgun season, as I stated in a previous post.  Sometimes the easiest tag you can draw for out of state is a muzzleloader tag, like in Colorado, this gun gives you a better chance of success, even though it is still a muzzleloader.  I wouldn't spend the $1000+ dollars on this gun for Georgia hunting only; however, I am considering it for the rest of the hunting I do around the USA.  I see what you are saying in your Georgia application but this gun is a superior weapon for hunting all over and not just Georgia.


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## fishdog

It started as primitive weapon season and somehow got to this.  Now they call it muzzle loader season.


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## BarnesAddict

fishdog said:


> It started as primitive weapon season and somehow got to this.  Now they call it muzzle loader season.



They're ALL primitive seasons for those who wish to hunt with a primitive firearm.

I know many hunters who hunt with a flint during any and all seasons.  *I've never heard a centerfire or shotgun hunter complain one single time about someone using a flint during the regular firearm season, ever.*


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## Rainmaker

Shdw633,

You're right on both accounts: I am referring only to Georgia, and I see your point regarding the rifles usability in those other states. 

I can't disagree at all. 

I am one of those guys that will hunt primitive. I have had a percussion Hawken for over 20 years. Never hunted with it much. This past summer I bought a Lyman Great Plains flintlock .50 cal. 

That flintlock is so much fun to shoot. Had to get glasses this past summer. My eyes aren't as they used to be. Will see how I do with irons on Georgia deer.


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## NCHillbilly

I couldn't care less what anybody else hunts with myself. I just don't understand the whole "reinventing the wheel" trend with muzzleloaders the last few years. The goal seems to be to make muzzleloaders for people who don't like muzzleloaders-get them to looking, feeling, and shooting just like a modern centerfire rifle. I've already got some good scoped bolt actions, when I pick up the muzzleloader, I'm doing it for the whole experience of hunting with a muzzleloader.


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## tv_racin_fan

shdw633 said:


> You and many others only look at Georgia when you are making your statements, rightly so as this is where you do your hunting.  However; many go beyond Georgia when they hunt, like Colorado and Illinois, etc., for which this gun is excellent for.  I went to Illinois with one of my friends from Georgia and by the end of the hunt he stated that Illinois deer are stupid because they don't run for the woods, they run into the open field.  What he failed to understand is that the deer have learned the capabilities of a shotgun and know that once they are out beyond the 200 yard range of the woods they are pretty much safe.  This gun would change that.  A study in Maryland showed that bucks would bed right under stands during the offseason but during the season would stay 150 to 200 yards away because they knew the shotguns capabilities were shorter than that.  This gun would change that as many states do not allow rifles but do allow muzzleloaders during shotgun season, as I stated in a previous post.  Sometimes the easiest tag you can draw for out of state is a muzzleloader tag, like in Colorado, this gun gives you a better chance of success, even though it is still a muzzleloader.  I wouldn't spend the $1000+ dollars on this gun for Georgia hunting only; however, I am considering it for the rest of the hunting I do around the USA.  I see what you are saying in your Georgia application but this gun is a superior weapon for hunting all over and not just Georgia.



I would be willing to bet that those states that do not allow rifle hunting but allow muzzle loaders and shotguns will change their rules if these rifles become popular.

Hillbilly 

Sure you do. The reinventing the wheel is so that the guys who have no desire to hunt with a iron sighted flint lock using patched ball can have an almost modern rifle that they can use during what used to be primitive weapons season. They may even still call it primitive weapons season but a modern inline is not a primitive weapon by any stretch. For many it is all about stretching their hunting season. What I find interesting in those same guys think nothing of a $1000 hunting rig but most of them want nothing to do with a $1000 muzzle loading rig. They want a rifle that is capable of a 200 yard and sometimes more shot.


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## BarnesAddict

tv_racin_fan said:


> I would be willing to bet that those states that do not allow rifle hunting but allow muzzle loaders and shotguns will change their rules if these rifles become popular.........



Hummmm....... many states are now starting to allow smokeless muzzleloaders during the primitive or muzzleloader seasons.  I may be wrong, so don't quote me but, didn't IN just start to allow smokeless?

Like it or not, times-r-a-change'n.  Its just matter of time before those states out west, start allowing scoped rifles and saboted bullets.
These younger bucks want something easy and quick.  Their work may not let them hunt more than a couple days or evenings, plus with families and other extra activities.  These are the hunters that will be changing things.  When these things change, be happy that you still have the choice to use primitive firearms.  They're not taking an entitlement away.

Accept the changes, or end up bitter and that doesn't do anyone any good.


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## FrontierGander

states that once allowed smokeless have now gotten rid of them. New Mexico for example is one of the states that allowed it and then banned SML.


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## BarnesAddict

FrontierGander said:


> states that once allowed smokeless have now gotten rid of them. New Mexico for example is one of the states that allowed it and then banned SML.



NM Restricted Muzzleloader: (for specific deer hunts) Any muzzleloading rifle (including a smoothbore flintlock or musket) using open sights in which the charge and projectile are loaded	through the muzzle.	Only black powder, Pyrodex or an equivalent substitute may	be used.  Smokeless powder, *in-line ignition*,	pelleted powder, sabots, belted bullets, multiple projectiles and scopes are illegal. 

You're correct. However that's their rendition of a primitive season.  Sooner or later the masses will want that changed.  Oh its coming, you can bet on it. ..


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## shdw633

NCHillbilly said:


> I couldn't care less what anybody else hunts with myself. I just don't understand the whole "reinventing the wheel" trend with muzzleloaders the last few years. The goal seems to be to make muzzleloaders for people who don't like muzzleloaders-get them to looking, feeling, and shooting just like a modern centerfire rifle. I've already got some good scoped bolt actions, when I pick up the muzzleloader, I'm doing it for the whole experience of hunting with a muzzleloader.



It's about company growth and money, that's what it is always about.  What they are looking for is new and immerging markets, like BarnesAddict and tv_racin_fan touched on, it's about the money and the ability to tap into undeveloped or underdeveloped markets to increase a companies bottom line.  Take PSE's new bow that tops 370 fps, does the industry really need a bow that fast?  Do we really need to be able to shoot a whitetail out to a hundred yards, no; however, out west they have these types of shots as do those who want to hunt sheep in mountainous terrain; therefore the bow is developed and put out on the market at a ridiculous price, for those markets.  Now, just because your average bowhunter really doesn't need this much bow doesn't matter as it will not stop those that want the latest and greatest from buying it.  No different then cell phones and computers, companies can't continue to grow and prosper by making the same thing over and over, they must bring something to the front of the line every once in a while to stay in the mainstream spotlight.  It is up to the consumers to determine if it is worthwhile or not.


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## shdw633

tv_racin_fan said:


> I would be willing to bet that those states that do not allow rifle hunting but allow muzzle loaders and shotguns will change their rules if these rifles become popular.



I believe that it's all about safety with these types on weapons, as states are not looking to hamper your ability to harvest your game, if anything, they are hoping you fill your tag.  That being said, if they start having issues with sabots flying through farm houses and barns or livestock being killed by stray bullets then that will be an issue and I would expect those states to create new laws to address those issues.  I would expect those laws to restrict the powder capacity more than the gun itself, just as they do with the number of shotgun shells you are allowed to have in your gun during deer season.


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## HOBO

*Where to find one of these new Remington Ultimate ML*

I've always been a fan of Remington rifles,,, especially the 700 models....  Remington's first attempt in the muzzle loading market with the 700 ML was a bust leaving much to be desired.....  It sounds with this new Ultimate version that they have done their homework and got their act together on this offering.....  Does anybody have any idea where one of the new Remington Ultimates might be for sale???

------------<" ){{{{><


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## BarnesAddict

HOBO said:


> I've always been a fan of Remington rifles,,, especially the 700 models....  Remington's first attempt in the muzzle loading market with the 700 ML was a bust leaving much to be desired.....  It sounds with this new Ultimate version that they have done their homework and got their act together on this offering.....  Does anybody have any idea where one of the new Remington Ultimates might be for sale???
> 
> ------------<" ){{{{><



I know of a guy that has four (4) being delivered on Friday.  Two have already been reserved.  I pointed the shop out to another person I converse with and my bet is he called this morning to reserve one himself.   You'll just have to call all the local larger shops to find one.  Remington released late, so there won't be rifles setting on shelves very long.


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## Dutch

Rainmaker said:


> Every sport or activity has to have boundaries and rules. Unfortunately, there are people out there who consistently push those boundaries and try to skew the rules.
> 
> If I were in charge, they (the ML case-less rifle) would never be allowed in the ML season in Georgia, but neither would scopes and modern inlines.
> 
> The sole purpose of having different seasons i.e. archery, muzzle loader, and modern rifle is truly for the experience of hunting with the different tools. When manufacturers and hunters make the tool more like something else it moves away from what it should be.
> 
> Impatience, selfish nature, greed, whatever you want to call it - it's human nature. There are many, many counts of someone getting MOA 3 shot groups out of scoped inlines. Nothing primitive about that or even challenging.
> 
> And for the agricultural areas where the deer are far away - get closer, and if you can't or aren't successful, well, that's why they call it hunting.
> 
> Nowadays, it's all about the kill. Whatever it takes mentality.
> 
> I know I am in the minority, and all of this is nothing more than how I feel.
> 
> There must be rules.



Your not alone...I say do away with in-lines and go back to Sidelocks or flintlock. If its called "Primitive" weapon season then make those the only legal type to hunt with. To each his own, ymmv, and all that jazz


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## tv_racin_fan

Dutch said:


> Your not alone...I say do away with in-lines and go back to Sidelocks or flintlock. If its called "Primitive" weapon season then make those the only legal type to hunt with. To each his own, ymmv, and all that jazz



Did you know that the first firearm built to use a cap was an inline design?


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## jerome

The way I look at this topic is everybody has their own reasons for using Muzzle Loaders . Mine is the history of the guns, and yours may be for the ability to extend your season or because its the only rifles legal in your area . I don't go for the new inlines or the scopes but that's my choice . The word Primitive means a lot to me .


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