# Silver Labrador Retrievers



## mtnman74 (Nov 1, 2013)

Has anyone ever seen a silver lab? My yellow female and chocolate male produced 5 chocolates and 2 silvers Halloween day.


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## Ol Crooked Toe (Nov 2, 2013)

Silvers aren't labs. End of story.


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## Speckcaller (Nov 2, 2013)

I would have to agree with ol crooked. Yellow, chocolate, and black are the only ones recognized by the AKC. Silvers and any other mutant color is just bad genetics.


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## Hooked On Quack (Nov 2, 2013)

Ol Crooked Toe said:


> Silvers aren't labs. End of story.





Speckcaller said:


> I would have to agree with ol crooked. Yellow, chocolate, and black are the only ones recognized by the AKC. Silvers and any other mutant color is just bad genetics.






Yep and yep.


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## JuliaH (Nov 2, 2013)




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## mtnman74 (Nov 2, 2013)

Ol Crooked Toe said:


> Silvers aren't labs. End of story.



Ok.... explain to me how it happened ?


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## GAGE (Nov 2, 2013)

How about some pics?


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## JamHunts (Nov 2, 2013)

Here we go!


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## . (Nov 2, 2013)

mtnman74 said:


> Ok.... explain to me how it happened ?



I read up on it once and if I recall correctly, it's a recessive color gene being a variant of the chocolate lab.  So what it isn't an AKC recognized color?  IMO a lab is a lab despite the color.  Neat looking dogs.


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## . (Nov 2, 2013)

Here ya go.

http://www.phantomlabradors.com/silverlabs.html


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## mtnman74 (Nov 2, 2013)

iflyfish said:


> I read up on it once and if I recall correctly, it's a recessive color gene being a variant of the chocolate lab.  So what it isn't an AKC recognized color?  IMO a lab is a lab despite the color.  Neat looking dogs.



I had to do some reading my self when I came home and saw them. Obviously there is some controversy over them, but to have someone tell me my lab pups are not labs really - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - me off.


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## JamHunts (Nov 2, 2013)

Where's the pics


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## brownceluse (Nov 2, 2013)

I seen a silver lab at the last hunt test i was at running finished he looked good...............


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## Ol Crooked Toe (Nov 2, 2013)

No need in getting upset at us about it. Does the ukc or akc recognize them as labs? No. 

Akc registration has a place for color on their papers. Is there a silver choice? 
Ukc will only give an LP number if you tell them it's silver. 

What's the background on the parents? They fully registered with all health clearances done to ensure healthy breedings?


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## mtnman74 (Nov 3, 2013)

From what I've read the AKC does recognize them as labs they just don't recognize the color. They register them as chocolate. If they are not labs, what are they? Both parents are full blooded labs. Both sets of their parents were full blooded. 
I'm posting from my phone so I can't figure out how to get the pics to post. PM me with a number and I'll text you some pics.


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## mtnman74 (Nov 3, 2013)

And no I don't have papers on them and all that other mess. I'm not trying to make a living of breeding dogs. All I asked was if anyone had seen a silver lab before.


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## JuliaH (Nov 3, 2013)

I have seen pictures and I have heard of silver labs plenty. Recessive genes exist in every living thing. It is not always a good thing to work to reproduce them.....  for instance, an albino person. Beautiful fair skin and light blonde hair, but would you want to live with the problems of staying out of the sun, etc. 

I am a German Shorthaired Pointer person. I love the livers in all their patterns and solids too. The blacks are okay too, and have been around since the early beginnings of the breed. Several breeds were used to develop the GSP and I believe English Pointers have been crossed into them at times. 

There is a recessive gene that produces a lemon/white GSP. Is it a good idea to reproduce that?  Probably not. It is off color, off type. Are there other problems that go along with the pale color?  Probably. Could normal colored dogs produce it?  Probably could, especially with line breeding.... but a breeder SHOULD have the ethics to take such a pup, sell or give away only on limited registration or not register it. Require spay or neuter, or keep that pup till it is old enough to spay or neuter. I can promise that if I ever produce one of these, I will find it a good home with no papers.

Can they be registered?  Sure, but is it a good idea? No. The pup shown is from registered GSP parents.

Julia




mtnman74 said:


> From what I've read the AKC does recognize them as labs they just don't recognize the color. They register them as chocolate. If they are not labs, what are they? Both parents are full blooded labs. Both sets of their parents were full blooded.
> I'm posting from my phone so I can't figure out how to get the pics to post. PM me with a number and I'll text you some pics.


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## JustUs4All (Nov 3, 2013)

Lab + Lab = Lab.

Could there be some oddities that show up due to resessive genes? Sure, but that does not make a Lab into something else.  

The oddities might not be recognized by an arbitrary rule set by some self appointed and self perpetuating organization, but that does not turn a Lab into something else either.


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## JuliaH (Nov 3, 2013)

That lemon and white GSP is purebred too. Not mine. I picked up the picture from another place, but I can tell you that the pup is purebred and registerable and might even make a nice hunter. But would I want to reproduce it?  NOPE.  Why go for the off-color, exotic stuff?  Cuz it's different?  Lots of people do.... but is it good for the animals?


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## JustUs4All (Nov 3, 2013)

I agree completely, Julia.  
It is the folk who wish to say that Lab+Lab does not = Lab with whom I disagree.


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## mtnman74 (Nov 3, 2013)

http://forum.gon.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=759112&stc=1&d=1383492062


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## JuliaH (Nov 3, 2013)

Just... agreed!  This recessive could have been there all the way from the beginnings of the breed, or could have come in later from ??????    but if both parents are registered, then it is lab + lab = lab for sure 

People breed for this tho.... it's "exotic", different, and there will be a market for it.... problem is, there is a "breed to improve the Labrador Retriever" that may be missing in the equation... I have no problem with those showing up but I do have one with these recessives being sought after in breedings...  It's not today's fad so much as what happens when the dog is too big, to playful, too much trouble, and this forum (and others, along with shelters, rescues, pounds) is flooded by yet another unwanted dog because the trialers, hunt test folks, serious lab people, don't want it...


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## Ol Crooked Toe (Nov 3, 2013)

mtnman74 said:


> And no I don't have papers on them and all that other mess. I'm not trying to make a living of breeding dogs. All I asked was if anyone had seen a silver lab before.



And that is an irresponsible mindset to have and does nothing to better the breed. And is the problem with so called silver lab breeders in general. You're not trying to make a living breeding, so why did you breed them? You have no idea if you had a litter of puppies with some type of health issues because you say "you don't need all that other mess".
And then someone buys one of your pups and does the same thing and you have even worse problems being carried into the next generation.


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## mtnman74 (Nov 3, 2013)

And don't worry ole crooked toe..... I'm not selling them so your puppy mill won't have any competition.


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## JimDraper (Nov 3, 2013)

I have seen them as a matter of fact my brother inlaw bought one and the breeder had to register it as a chocolate, I have no problem with the color( I have chocolates myself) as long as the dog gets a good home and is well taken care of and trained properly he will fetch up ducks and Im pretty sure the ducks wont care what color the dog is that is retrieving his dead butt off of the water.


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## mtnman74 (Nov 3, 2013)

Thank you JimDraper. People like you and a few others on here are why I posted this.


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## JimDraper (Nov 3, 2013)

No problem, I have bred my dogs, I am no breeder but enjoy the puppies and making people happy when they get a new family member. I will not sell my dogs to someone who i do not think will give them a great home and take care of them as if they were a family member. Too many people breed dogs for the money and don't care about the dogs that's why there are pages of classifieds of dogs that don't have good homes, I don't care if the dog is the ugliest mutt out there they deserve a loving family and home.


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## mtnman74 (Nov 3, 2013)

I was planning on giving them away on here. Figured they would make great Christmas presents. Also figured the GON would be the perfect place to find them new homes considering most people on here were good ole country people like me but with all the breeder nazis on here I'm not sure if this is the right place. Some on here want me to throw them in the river cause they are not 100% pure yellow labs with blue eyes and have    " zee proper papers".


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## quackwacker (Nov 3, 2013)

thank Gosh for the Breed Naiz's or we would have no prue breed dogs without a pile of health problems!


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## mtnman74 (Nov 3, 2013)

quackwacker said:


> thank Gosh for the Breed Naiz's or we would have no prue breed dogs without a pile of health problems!



Really?  How did dogs ever manage to breed and survive for all them years before people started interfering with the process?


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## JuliaH (Nov 3, 2013)

Thank you quackwacker!  




quackwacker said:


> thank Gosh for the Breed Naiz's or we would have no prue breed dogs without a pile of health problems!


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## loveto hunt (Nov 3, 2013)

How do papers make a dog. As long as the owner is happy with the animal. I have seen plenty of non paper animals that are healthly. Those are some good looking puppies. I am very intrested in one. Sent you a pm


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## JimDraper (Nov 3, 2013)

mtnman74 said:


> I was planning on giving them away on here. Figured they would make great Christmas presents. Also figured the GON would be the perfect place to find them new homes considering most people on here were good ole country people like me but with all the breeder nazis on here I'm not sure if this is the right place. Some on here want me to throw them in the river cause they are not 100% pure yellow labs with blue eyes and have    " zee proper papers".




List them on KIJIJI(spelling) its a classified place for animals. The breeder don't make the dog.


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## Ol Crooked Toe (Nov 3, 2013)

mtnman74 said:


> And don't worry ole crooked toe..... I'm not selling them so your puppy mill won't have any competition.



Really? How many dogs have I sold? 
I will tell you this. All my dogs have had every necessary test done and I have spent a lot of time and money to insure my dogs are healthy and make healthy puppies. Therefore not producing mutant colored pups and pups with health problems. You obviously aren't in it for the betterment of the breed. If that makes us nazis. So be it. 

Dudley labs regards.


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## JimDraper (Nov 3, 2013)

It's amazing to me how someone on here can ask a simple question and it turns into a wizzing match.


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## quackwacker (Nov 3, 2013)

loveto hunt said:


> How do papers make a dog. As long as the owner is happy with the animal. I have seen plenty of non paper animals that are healthly. Those are some good looking puppies. I am very intrested in one. Sent you a pm



I have also seen people who have spent lots of time and money on dogs only to find out at two years of age that the dog has EIC and cant be hunted anymore.

Or a dog that has hip issues early in life because," his parents were healthy and had no problems" when they were breed at two years of age.  

Papers dont make a dog, but getting a pup from parents who have been checked out and have clearances sure can save a lot of heart ache


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## JuliaH (Nov 3, 2013)

It's not about being breeder nazis as you say. It's not about money either. 

But it is about breed standards and certain testing for adults for breeding, and stuff like that. Papers do mean something as well. 

I know a lot of people don't get into it a lot, but others are very careful. That does not make us  "breed nazis".  That makes us careful that what living, breathing creatures we put on the ground are planned carefully.  

I don't advertise on Kiiji, or any pet sites like terrific pets and all that stuff. I have a long time ago, but no more.  When I do advertise a litter it will be on a site such as the marketplace here, or Gundog Central, or Gundog Breeders. 

I do believe in breed standards and papers. It is important in making sure we are looking out for the best of our favorite breeds. 

I found an article today that are purebred dogs in shelters are about 25% of the total nationwide, but the number of dogs that are free or cheap are 65% to wind up in a shelter. Many of those are euthanized (60%). It is no wonder breeders need to be careful....

http://www.statisticbrain.com/animal-shelter-statistics/


Julia




mtnman74 said:


> I was planning on giving them away on here. Figured they would make great Christmas presents. Also figured the GON would be the perfect place to find them new homes considering most people on here were good ole country people like me but with all the breeder nazis on here I'm not sure if this is the right place. Some on here want me to throw them in the river cause they are not 100% pure yellow labs with blue eyes and have    " zee proper papers".


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## T Tolbert (Nov 3, 2013)

mtnman74 said:


> And no I don't have papers on them and all that other mess. I'm not trying to make a living of breeding dogs. All I asked was if anyone had seen a silver lab before.




I wouldn't call it "mess"


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## brownceluse (Nov 3, 2013)

quackwacker said:


> I have also seen people who have spent lots of time and money on dogs only to find out at two years of age that the dog has EIC and cant be hunted anymore.
> 
> Or a dog that has hip issues early in life because," his parents were healthy and had no problems" when they were breed at two years of age.
> 
> Papers dont make a dog, but getting a pup from parents who have been checked out and have clearances sure can save a lot of heart ache


 Bingo we have a winner!


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## krazybronco2 (Nov 4, 2013)

JimDraper said:


> It's amazing to me how someone on here can ask a simple question and it turns into a wizzing match.



first it isnt a wizzing match it is an information give away. the people that dont like the information that is being given away are the ones that turn it around and start calling it a wizzing match.


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## ngaduck (Nov 4, 2013)

mtnman74 said:


> Really?  How did dogs ever manage to breed and survive for all them years before people started interfering with the process?



Just because dogs "managed to breed for all them years" doesn't mean they were healthy. Human beings have "managed" to breed for years too. At times the average lifespan was no more than 30 or so years. It would be nice if we could get people to be as careful as some of us are with our dogs when it comes to breeding. The world would be a much better place. 

It's about quality of life for the dog. If you're not breeding for the betterment of the breed, you really shouldn't be breeding. You say it's so country folk can have a dog. There are plenty of dogs in shelters that need good homes.


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## Joe Overby (Nov 5, 2013)

People are gonna do what they want to do. If they want to have their no papered backyard mutt bred then they are going to do it regardless of what anyone on this forum says. Is it irresponsible?? IMO yes. But it doesn't matter what my opinion is. "Country Folk" aren't going to quit just because we don't like it! 
The fact of the matter is that had this been a planned, responsible breeding the breeder would have had ALL health certifications done, pedigrees researched thoroughly to ensure lines are crossed properly, and if just these two things have been done then the breeder would have known what color dogs would be produced. 
Is silver a color?? IMO yes. It is a recessive genetic anomole that certain irresponsible breeders have targeted for the sake of making a dollar. But there have been hundreds of threads on silver labs....perhaps a search would aid with education?
Those of us that are involved with these dogs for a living take things like this very personally. Please excuse us for vehemently disagreeing with your practices of breeding dogs with no papers. These practices make ALL of us who do this professionally, look irresponsible. It is not in the best interest of the breed, the customer, nor the puppies themselves. But then again, that's my opinion and people are gonna do what they're gonna do...


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## king killer delete (Nov 5, 2013)

No stud book. No pure bred dog. AKC breed standard Chocolate, Yellow and Black.  White chest spot and white toes are allowed.


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## TripleXBullies (Nov 5, 2013)

JuliaH said:


> I do believe in breed standards and papers. It is important in making sure we are looking out for the best of our favorite breeds.
> 
> Julia



The "breed standard" for GSDs have begun to ruin them with WAY too much angulation in the rear.. 


Getting health certs for your breeders is not enough. Health certs from ALL of the dogs in the pedigree as well as a lot of their litter mates is what is REALLY necessary to well plan a breeding. Who has ever made sure of all of that? I would venture to say not many here. I know I didn't go to that extent when I was breeding.


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## TripleXBullies (Nov 5, 2013)

ngaduck said:


> Just because dogs "managed to breed for all them years" doesn't mean they were healthy. Human beings have "managed" to breed for years too. At times the average lifespan was no more than 30 or so years. It would be nice if we could get people to be as careful as some of us are with our dogs when it comes to breeding.




Comparing dog breeding to humans is apples and toilets... Not even barely similar. But I know what you're talking about... Sometimes I see two people and say to myself that they should know that they shouldn't breed together...

Dogs in the wild that bred were more healthy because the healthy ones were the only ones to live long enough to pass their genetics on. Now they don't have to have good health just to survive. It is us who has bred the bad health back in to them over the last several hundred years.


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## JimDraper (Nov 5, 2013)

krazybronco2 said:


> first it isnt a wizzing match it is an information give away. the people that dont like the information that is being given away are the ones that turn it around and start calling it a wizzing match.



Just to let you know all of my dogs have papers and very good blood lines, as a matter of fact two of the pups from my last liter are search and rescue dogs in Colorado and one is a drug dog in Atlanta, the info is fine but a guy ask a simple question if anybody has seen them before a folks jump all over him. My dogs are not field trial champs or nothing but my male has hunted with some of the best in the country and held his own, and even out retrieved some with several field trials under their belts. Some of you guys make it sound like he should put the pups down instead of finding them good homes.


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## ryano (Nov 5, 2013)

JimDraper said:


> My dogs are not field trial champs or nothing but my male has hunted with some of the best in the country and held his own, and even out retrieved some with several field trials under their belts.



op2:


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## JuliaH (Nov 5, 2013)

Yes, you are right... but an analogy is all that was...  Now, breed standards are good. It is usually the people who take them to the extreme, such as the angulation you are talking about in the GSD. That dog is also much higher on the list for hip displaysia than labs OR GSPs.  We humans tend to see a nice animal and then breed for traits, such as angulation. Mostly show people doing that I expect, but there are a lot of GSD dogs out there like that. We can actually use something good, such as a breed standard, and almost cripple a useful animal, no matter what it is...  I have seen my share in Arabian horses before I ever had dogs. And think of the "big lick" TWH... that's not how the breed started.... it is what we did with an otherwise good breed standard. Lots more examples too. QH that have those big muscular bodies and tiny feet (from the halter enthusiasts). 

You are so right... we have done it to our animals.

Julia




TripleXBullies said:


> Comparing dog breeding to humans is apples and toilets... Not even barely similar. But I know what you're talking about... Sometimes I see two people and say to myself that they should know that they shouldn't breed together...
> 
> Dogs in the wild that bred were more healthy because the healthy ones were the only ones to live long enough to pass their genetics on. Now they don't have to have good health just to survive. It is us who has bred the bad health back in to them over the last several hundred years.


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## JuliaH (Nov 5, 2013)

Jim,

I don't believe he should put the pups down. I just think that folks who breed carelessly (and it doesn't depend on just registered or not) need to think a whole lot about what they are doing....  

Registration does not always protect them either. But I think it helps.  And using certain testing if needed, some performance testing, learning skills that are needed in any breeding program are important. 

Usually, those folks who just breed and don't worry about all the baloney that goes with it are not helping the dogs or anyone else.  Breeders have a bad reputation sometimes, especially in rescue circles, and it is up to us to keep our ethics and standards up to the degree that we can know our pups are okay, to the best extent we can. 

I, and many other breeders, will take pups back if we have to do that, will sometimes travel to get one that gets in trouble, will pay the costs for docking tails, removing dewclaws, properly planning deworming and shots for youngsters, will pay for paperwork without considering it "all that mess", will give discounts for folks neutering pups, etc.  

I am not into putting others down, but I do think  it is a big responsibility to put the boys and the girls together and wind up with a litter of pups 

Julia



JimDraper said:


> Just to let you know all of my dogs have papers and very good blood lines, as a matter of fact two of the pups from my last liter are search and rescue dogs in Colorado and one is a drug dog in Atlanta, the info is fine but a guy ask a simple question if anybody has seen them before a folks jump all over him. My dogs are not field trial champs or nothing but my male has hunted with some of the best in the country and held his own, and even out retrieved some with several field trials under their belts. Some of you guys make it sound like he should put the pups down instead of finding them good homes.


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## KNorman (Nov 5, 2013)

It's been my experience that people are as strict on breeding as the dogs they own. 

In other words, if all they have is papers, then that's what they hang their hat on. 

It goes in the opposite direction too. I know people that have dogs that are completely tested (and clear) and won't sniff a dog that isn't completely cleared either. Doesn't matter if the dog is Lean Mac, they won't touch'em. 

IMO, there's some middle ground there. While I believe field dogs should be tested for hips, elbows, EIC, CNM, and CERF'ed, I wouldn't rule out a dog that has good hips, elbows, and CERF who might be a carrier of EIC or CNM...provided the dog is an excellent field dog and the female (or stud) is clear. 

I guess I feel that way because my CLM is excellent/clear in all categories, except is a CNM carrier. This is a dog that is QAA earning either placements or at the worst an RJ in 3 of 4 Q's I ran him in last spring. 

Now, a year later, he's always hanging around in the 4th series of All Age stakes but quite hasn't closed the door yet for a placement, yet was a whisker away from qualifying for the National Am by missing the last big water bird by a combined 10 feet in his last two trials. 

To think this dog isn't worthy of being bred to a hunt test female is silly. I'm very honest about him and demand all females be CNM clear, but have had people with JH - females actually send unsolicited  e-mail(s) to me and rail on me for floating a stud ad.  Never seen my dog run or even been to a field trial. 

Oh well....it is what it is. We will just continue to work hard and maybe eventually "be worthy". 

As far as the OP goes....I will not presume to judge. And I certainly encourage him to find the best homes for his pups he can.


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## Ol Crooked Toe (Nov 6, 2013)

KNorman said:


> I guess I feel that way because my CLM is excellent/clear in all categories, except is a CNM carrier. This is a dog that is QAA earning either placements or at the worst an RJ in 3 of 4 Q's I ran him in last spring.
> 
> Now, a year later, he's always hanging around in the 4th series of All Age stakes but quite hasn't closed the door yet for a placement, yet was a whisker away from qualifying for the National Am by missing the last big water bird by a combined 10 feet in his last two trials.
> 
> To think this dog isn't worthy of being bred to a hunt test female is silly. .



Very good point. I have a very talented young male that is eic carrier. Everything else checks out good. He is a tremendous marking dog and would be a shame to not carry on his positives because of something that if things are done properly will be of no consequence to any off spring. As long as future generations are bred responsibly.


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## KNorman (Nov 9, 2013)

Ol Crooked Toe said:


> Very good point. I have a very talented young male that is eic carrier. Everything else checks out good. He is a tremendous marking dog and would be a shame to not carry on his positives because of something that if things are done properly will be of no consequence to any off spring. As long as future generations are bred responsibly.



I tend to agree with your outlook. 

In general, I find FT folks much more accepting of a carrier status IF the dog can perform well. 

Who cares if a dog is a carrier if they can do good All Age work? 

Keep those marking genes in the gene pool and breed around it in the next generation. In my mind the diseases will gradually fade away while keeping a diverse gene pool. 

Of course, it's important as a seller to make sure every buyer is aware of the status and ramifications of breeding.


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## Ol Crooked Toe (Nov 10, 2013)

KNorman said:


> I tend to agree with your outlook.
> 
> In general, I find FT folks much more accepting of a carrier status IF the dog can perform well.
> 
> ...



Yes. There are pigs getting bred because they are 100% healthy and then you have really great performers not being bred because of lack of education on non deal breaking issues in my opinion.


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## KNorman (Nov 10, 2013)

OCT....a carrier IS 100% healthy. 
They just carry a copy of a gene that limits who they can be bred to.


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## Ol Crooked Toe (Nov 10, 2013)

KNorman said:


> OCT....a carrier IS 100% healthy.
> They just carry a copy of a gene that limits who they can be bred to.



Yes sir. Exactly.


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