# Been a while



## TripleXBullies

Hey guys. I've been gone from this forum for... a couple of years I guess. I've had a lot change in my life. 

Thought some of your guys would be interested to see some of my pics from the weekend.

I smoked 2 whole briskets. The one where I did the point whole took 16 hours on the smoke.  And I caught a close to 5 pounder! Probably my PB. My buddy's was just a little smaller. And a pretty big sunnie on a crank bait.

Hope everyone here is doing well!


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## bullethead

Welcome back, glad you are doing well.


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## ambush80

You look like you're living well.  Good to see ya.


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## centerpin fan

You've missed some good discussions down here and a tremendous amount of utter nonsense "upstairs".

Welcome back!


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## 660griz

Welcome back. I hope to find a good butcher down where I live. I smoked a couple briskets but, they were little and only took about 6 hours.


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## TripleXBullies

I get all of my briskets at walmart. The only place I know will have them. They're decent most of the time.


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## TripleXBullies

My biggest news... for you guys... I'm  not atheist or agnostic any more..

Yet I can't imagine coming in here and trying to "convert" anyone. As much as I did when I was atheist, I still believe it's futile and likely more destructive.


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## 660griz

TripleXBullies said:


> I get all of my briskets at walmart. The only place I know will have them. They're decent most of the time.



I never thought to check there. I tried Kroger, Ingles, Publix and Piggly Wiggly. (AKA hoggly woggly)


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## TripleXBullies

Kennesaw by work, Acworth  on my way home from work and Villa Rica - I haven't been in one of those Walmarts and not seen one. Not always the best looking - sometimes thin with a lot of fat...



660griz said:


> I never thought to check there. I tried Kroger, Ingles, Publix and Piggly Wiggly. (AKA hoggly woggly)


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## 660griz

My choices are Newnan and LaGrange. 
I'll check next time I pass. I wish Amazon sold em.


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## bullethead

TripleXBullies said:


> My biggest news... for you guys... I'm  not atheist or agnostic any more..
> 
> Yet I can't imagine coming in here and trying to "convert" anyone. As much as I did when I was atheist, I still believe it's futile and likely more destructive.



Now you've got me curious, what led you to a different path?


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## TripleXBullies

It started with my wife. Girlfriend at the time. I'm sure this will be a topic but I'll wait for questions if you have them. 

She wanted me to go with her. I SO didn't want to. The last time I had been in a church was for an old lady's funeral who I didn't know. In an old timey place, older timey preacher... I was grumbling to myself the entire time. I hated it. That was the only time I had been in a church setting in 10 years.
That morning before I went I was so nervous about being uncomfortable. That morning I prayed to whoever might listen. I ended up being VERY uncomfortable.... because I wasn't uncomfortable.... 

That was 2 years ago now.



I was just considering what else I should type with the first line... expecting I'd get bashed with rude comments... Then I realized the people who would question that part... are some of the nicest guys on this site...


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## WaltL1

Howdy TripleX
Thats a great fish but that brisket looks awesome!
Glad you stopped in and thanks for sharing your news.


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## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> It started with my wife. Girlfriend at the time. I'm sure this will be a topic but I'll wait for questions if you have them.
> 
> She wanted me to go with her. I SO didn't want to. The last time I had been in a church was for an old lady's funeral who I didn't know. In an old timey place, older timey preacher... I was grumbling to myself the entire time. I hated it. That was the only time I had been in a church setting in 10 years.
> That morning before I went I was so nervous about being uncomfortable. That morning I prayed to whoever might listen. I ended up being VERY uncomfortable.... because I wasn't uncomfortable....
> 
> That was 2 years ago now.
> 
> 
> 
> I was just considering what else I should type with the first line... expecting I'd get bashed with rude comments... Then I realized the people who would question that part... are some of the nicest guys on this site...




Awesome!!!

You should be able to answer all the questions that we ask believers.   Lets get right to the meat.  Did you have a indescribable pricking of your heart just like they say?  Did you hear a voice?  Did you know for certain that it was Jesus or Allah or whoever it was?


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## ambush80

Will we never understand it until it happens to us?   Are you sick (I hope not)?  By sick I mean with some terrible disease.  Again, I most certainly hope not.


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## ambush80

XXX,

Is the experience impossible to describe in words?  As someone so recently on the other side of the aisle, I'm sure you can remember some of the biggest questions that you had for believers.  What were they and how did you answer them?


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## bullethead

TripleXBullies said:


> It started with my wife. Girlfriend at the time. I'm sure this will be a topic but I'll wait for questions if you have them.
> 
> She wanted me to go with her. I SO didn't want to. The last time I had been in a church was for an old lady's funeral who I didn't know. In an old timey place, older timey preacher... I was grumbling to myself the entire time. I hated it. That was the only time I had been in a church setting in 10 years.
> That morning before I went I was so nervous about being uncomfortable. That morning I prayed to whoever might listen. I ended up being VERY uncomfortable.... because I wasn't uncomfortable....
> 
> That was 2 years ago now.
> 
> 
> 
> I was just considering what else I should type with the first line... expecting I'd get bashed with rude comments... Then I realized the people who would question that part... are some of the nicest guys on this site...


I can relate to having a unique feeling when in a place of worship. I cannot describe it accurately but it is similar to feelings I get when I visit battlefields, cemeteries and memorials. Each are different than the other but seem to give me a sense appreciation for what goes on there or has happened there.


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## TripleXBullies

ambush80 said:


> Awesome!!!
> 
> You should be able to answer all the questions that we ask believers.   Lets get right to the meat.  Did you have a indescribable pricking of your heart just like they say?  Did you hear a voice?  Did you know for certain that it was Jesus or Allah or whoever it was?



I wasn't uncomfortable to be there. I felt at home. That day there was no flooring experience other than it wasn't what I expected to happen. No voice. If I was comfortable, at home and happy to be there... why would I stop? That's just the start obviously..


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## TripleXBullies

ambush80 said:


> Will we never understand it until it happens to us?   Are you sick (I hope not)?  By sick I mean with some terrible disease.  Again, I most certainly hope not.



I'm  not sick. I'm not really sure what to say about the first question.


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## TripleXBullies

bullethead said:


> I can relate to having a unique feeling when in a place of worship. I cannot describe it accurately but it is similar to feelings I get when I visit battlefields, cemeteries and memorials. Each are different than the other but seem to give me a sense appreciation for what goes on there or has happened there.



I can't say I've had that feeling at any of those places... although I also can't say that it doesn't happen elsewhere. I'm not really sure.


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## TripleXBullies

ambush80 said:


> XXX,
> 
> Is the experience impossible to describe in words?  As someone so recently on the other side of the aisle, I'm sure you can remember some of the biggest questions that you had for believers.  What were they and how did you answer them?



You're wasting your time was a big one. I don't recall being very vocal about that, but I definitely felt that way. And it was something I respected then... that it's about perspective... When you look from where you are, you see things from where you are.

I still have some of that perspective. And I don't always think it's a bad thing. I question things by nature... my wife and I have done some pre and post marital counseling... and I was told I was detail oriented. I don't just want to know the details.. I NEED to know them... and the bible leaves a lot of those out....


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## ambush80

So are you a Deist but non-denominational?  

A close family friend who was also my wife's boss at the time gifted us with premarital counseling.  My wife ended up firing the two we tried. One was a gay guy and the other one was young and very pretty.  I kept waiting for the pretty one to say "You can say whatever you want here.  We won't judge you" 'cause I was gonna tell her what was on my mind, but she never did, and we never went back.  My fiance didn't like them telling her "He won't change unless he wants to and you can't make him."  The pretty one suggested that maybe I should get on some mood altering medication.  I said "Heck yeah!!!  Sign me up!!".  I've still never tried any.  

There's an interesting book I'm reading called 
_One Nation Under Therapy: How the Helping Culture Is Eroding Self-Reliance _
by Christina Hoff Sommers (Author), Sally Satel (Author).  It made me realize that going to a therapist prompted me to think that there was something wrong with me.  Then when the therapist suggested that I needed drugs I realized it was a scam.  Not to say that some people don't benefit greatly from therapy (the book doesn't claim that either).  

Sorry for the derail.

Back to believing.  Do you feel different about your place in the Universe now?  Do you feel like you have answers?


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## JB0704

Hey 3X.  Glad to see you typing around here again.  Wish we could'a caught up on those white bass, but they never really showed in good #'s this spring.  Hopefully next spring, or something else in between.

Good work on those butts.  I buy mine at Kroger when they go on sale......every now n then you can catch em dirt cheap.

And, cool you let folks know the conversion on here.  Glad that things are well with you and the Mrs.   You cannot convince anybody else of your faith, that's why it is yours.  For me, coming in here and testing myself has strengthened my own in many ways it otherwise would not have.  And, I agree with you that these are some of the best dudes on the forum (I have been hanging out with the useless billy folks a while and they are great dudes too......I see Ambush reading along down there, but have yet to get him to post).


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## ambush80

JB0704 said:


> Hey 3X.  Glad to see you typing around here again.  Wish we could'a caught up on those white bass, but they never really showed in good #'s this spring.  Hopefully next spring, or something else in between.
> 
> Good work on those butts.  I buy mine at Kroger when they go on sale......every now n then you can catch em dirt cheap.
> 
> And, cool you let folks know the conversion on here.  Glad that things are well with you and the Mrs.   You cannot convince anybody else of your faith, that's why it is yours.  For me, coming in here and testing myself has strengthened my own in many ways it otherwise would not have.  And, I agree with you that these are some of the best dudes on the forum (I have been hanging out with the useless billy folks a while and they are great dudes too......I see Ambush reading along down there, but have yet to get him to post).




I can justify spending some time discussing interesting and important issues.  That Billy stuff is just too much. I can't spend time on that kind of stuff online.  I'll do it in person (and often do), though.

I disagree that you can't convince anybody of your faith.  It can't be any harder than explaining why you like olives or asparagus.  You can tell people what it's like, how it feels, what it sounds like, but no one even tries.


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## JB0704

ambush80 said:


> You can tell people what it's like, how it feels, what it sounds like, but no one even tries.



3X just did that for you.  It feels like home.


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## JB0704

.......and, Billy becomes more than nonsense once you get past the nonsense.  Hard to explain, but Im glad I stumbled on that bunch down there.  All different sorts of folks as far as faith and politics, but each are very good people.


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## TripleXBullies

We've been like 5 times... and it's more because we've both  had failed marriages and we want to avoid it. It's not specifically because we've had problems. She doesn't want us reliant on her. She has pointed that out several times. She's building us together to work without her. I've learned a lot about myself that makes logical sense.


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## TripleXBullies

ambush80 said:


> Back to believing.  Do you feel different about your place in the Universe now?  Do you feel like you have answers?



Some answers that once weren't enough for me, now are. It's the perspective thing again.


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## TripleXBullies

I'm lost on the billy.


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## ambush80

JB0704 said:


> 3X just did that for you.  It feels like home.



I assume that your talking about a Norman Rockwellesque sensation.  

OK.  I'll tell you what home feels like to me.  I don't know.  The current place where my mom lives isn't where I grew up.  Where I grew up was filled with childish pleasures and some unfriendly experiences from imperfect parents.  

Try to be more specific if you can.  What part of home does the experience feel like and what experience are we talking about exactly?  Being in a house of worship?  Being in the presence of God?  And what's that like?  How do you know "He's" there and not just in your mind?


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## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> We've been like 5 times... and it's more because we've both  had failed marriages and we want to avoid it. It's not specifically because we've had problems. She doesn't want us reliant on her. She has pointed that out several times. She's building us together to work without her. I've learned a lot about myself that makes logical sense.




Are you talking about church or counseling? 

I agree that a counselor might give you a different perspective and teach you new strategies on how to heal yourselves.


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## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> Some answers that once weren't enough for me, now are. It's the perspective thing again.




Which ones?


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## TripleXBullies

ambush80 said:


> I disagree that you can't convince anybody of your faith.  It can't be any harder than explaining why you like olives or asparagus.  You can tell people what it's like, how it feels, what it sounds like, but no one even tries.



I do feel purpose. Something that you guys have talked admitted to a lot I think - that it can provide that. 

A lot of what I have seen God's hand in could just have been a lot of circumstances and coincidences. Of course they could have been. Like the fact that I felt at home after cringing at the thought of church or any divine being. 10 years of it - really my entire adult life. I was at home. If any of you felt at home while being in a church, would that at least start a change? At least make you question yourself?

I'd say I felt like that wasn't me. The me I knew hated that kind of junk.


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## TripleXBullies

ambush80 said:


> Are you talking about church or counseling?
> 
> I agree that a counselor might give you a different perspective and teach you new strategies on how to heal yourselves.



Yes. 
How to deal with each other. How to show love. How to handle anger. This is a counselor for the church too... but she's also a dr.


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## TripleXBullies

My best man from my wedding... Great friend for 18 years or so. He moved from our neighborhood in Dallas about 5 years ago to the Macon are for work with his wife and son. He's been through two apartments and is now in his second house.. He bought these 5 acres and built the house he wanted... Out of those 4 homes, he has told me he never felt at home. His small house in Dallas was home. Have you ever felt that?

I moved from Dallas to Villa Rica when I got married last year.  Which can be it's own story. I immediately felt at home. My home is my place of peace. I can relax in my home, even when I'm stressed. I'm comfortable. It's MINE. I feel SAFE there.


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## j_seph

Thanks for the testimony

Matthew 16:23


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## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> I do feel purpose. Something that you guys have talked admitted to a lot I think - that it can provide that.
> 
> A lot of what I have seen God's hand in could just have been a lot of circumstances and coincidences. Of course they could have been. Like the fact that I felt at home after cringing at the thought of church or any divine being. 10 years of it - really my entire adult life. I was at home. If any of you felt at home while being in a church, would that at least start a change? At least make you question yourself?
> 
> I'd say I felt like that wasn't me. The me I knew hated that kind of junk.



I want you to know that I'm not trying to diminish your experience in the least.  I ask you questions because I want to know how a powerful experience like conversion works.  I believe that it can be understood.  

I would say that I can make myself feel at home almost anywhere with the exception of a situation that's truly malevolent or threatening.  It's a state of mind.  

My Father in law's UCC church has a beautiful sanctuary.  I love that place.  When the preacher says "Jesus loves you and he wants all of us to love each other" I still get the same reaction.  I want to ask "How do you know?  Because it says so in the Bible?  Because he talks to you?".  The beautiful surroundings don't seem to help that.  

Have you ever been on a the influence of a chemical where you could say "That wasn't me"?  Was it like that?


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## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> My best man from my wedding... Great friend for 18 years or so. He moved from our neighborhood in Dallas about 5 years ago to the Macon are for work with his wife and son. He's been through two apartments and is now in his second house.. He bought these 5 acres and built the house he wanted... Out of those 4 homes, he has told me he never felt at home. His small house in Dallas was home. Have you ever felt that?
> 
> I moved from Dallas to Villa Rica when I got married last year.  Which can be it's own story. I immediately felt at home. My home is my place of peace. I can relax in my home, even when I'm stressed. I'm comfortable. It's MINE. I feel SAFE there.



Ok.  I guess I can understand that.  I would say that my current house where I live with my family feels like home.  If I were bleeding to death, I would try to crawl here and get in my bed.


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## TripleXBullies

ambush80 said:


> Which ones?



Faith is a big one. I used to hate the statement that you should believe just in case. That doesn't really work anyway I don't think... but I felt like I was losing my Sundays. Losing any time I spent. Losing any money I gave. I should be spending that with my daughter (I was a single dad for several of those years).

I don't feel any obligation to do what I do at this point and I enjoy doing it. I have the desire to.


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## TripleXBullies

ambush80 said:


> I want you to know that I'm not trying to diminish your experience in the least.  I ask you questions because I want to know how a powerful experience like conversion works.  I believe that it can be understood.




I know you brother. Thanks for the reassurance though.


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## TripleXBullies

Like too much alcohol? I own those bad behaviors.... lol... I say what was I really thinking maybe... but I think I don't remember them well enough to say that wasn't me... obviously it was... I don't think it's like that at all.


How do I know? I don't... I still question myself. I feel doubt all the time. Sometimes I catch myself saying the same things I used to... That's ridiculous... REALLY??



ambush80 said:


> I would say that I can make myself feel at home almost anywhere with the exception of a situation that's truly malevolent or threatening.  It's a state of mind.
> 
> My Father in law's UCC church has a beautiful sanctuary.  I love that place.  When the preacher says "Jesus loves you and he wants all of us to love each other" I still get the same reaction.  I want to ask "How do you know?  Because it says so in the Bible?  Because he talks to you?".  The beautiful surroundings don't seem to help that.
> 
> Have you ever been on a the influence of a chemical where you could say "That wasn't me"?  Was it like that?


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## TripleXBullies

ambush80 said:


> Ok.  I guess I can understand that.  I would say that my current house where I live with my family feels like home.  If I were bleeding to death, I would try to crawl here and get in my bed.



Your bed is that place. Comfortable on your own mattress, your own comforter, sheets, pillows. Something like that.


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## j_seph

ambush80 said:


> "Jesus loves you and he wants all of us to love each other" I still get the same reaction.  I want to ask "How do you know?  Because it says so in the Bible?  Because he talks to you?".  The beautiful surroundings don't seem to help that.
> 
> Have you ever been on a the influence of a chemical where you could say "That wasn't me"?  Was it like that?


It is a feeling that is hard to describe IMO. I was not even going to open his post up as to where it was at but felt I needed to. After I read some of his post about his changes I told my wife. By the time I was done typing it out I had tears in my eyes as did she after she read it. There is a change in your heart, that is where Christ lives at not in our carnal minds.

As to your last question, I am terrified to talk in crowds, in front of a group. Even if it is 10 friends and I have to stand up in front of them and talk like giving a speech. Always been that way. I was standing about a month ago in front of 100 plus folks I did not know, thanking the Lord for saving my soul and other things. Since I have started getting my life back on track for the Lord life has been so much more peaceful. Nothing like sitting in church and the Lord start dealing with you, heart racing because you know you have to do or say something. Even my wife can tell and visa versa when the other is being dealt with. She will even slide over just a little bit cause she knows I am fixing to do something whatever it may be. If you ever get in the right place, the place you need to be, and the spirit starts moving you will know it.

Example: Our pastor preached a strong sermon last Sunday morning. Another preacher happens to be at church that evening and our pastor was lead to ask him to deliver the sermon. You tell me the odds of t preachers, who have not spoke, on the same day giving the same message just in different words. When God moves you will know it.


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## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> Like too much alcohol? I own those bad behaviors.... lol... I say what was I really thinking maybe... but I think I don't remember them well enough to say that wasn't me... obviously it was... I don't think it's like that at all.
> 
> 
> How do I know? I don't... I still question myself. I feel doubt all the time. Sometimes I catch myself saying the same things I used to... That's ridiculous... REALLY??



What things seem ridiculous?


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## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> Your bed is that place. Comfortable on your own mattress, your own comforter, sheets, pillows. Something like that.



Are you talking about in church or in the presence of God?


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## TripleXBullies

Maybe neither.. I think it was the fact that I was there. Not the fact that I was inside of a building labelled a church. I think it's difficult for us to not be in his presence so I don't think that's it either. It was the step I took with an open mind.


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## ambush80

j_seph said:


> It is a feeling that is hard to describe IMO. I was not even going to open his post up as to where it was at but felt I needed to. After I read some of his post about his changes I told my wife. By the time I was done typing it out I had tears in my eyes as did she after she read it. There is a change in your heart, that is where Christ lives at not in our carnal minds.
> 
> As to your last question, I am terrified to talk in crowds, in front of a group. Even if it is 10 friends and I have to stand up in front of them and talk like giving a speech. Always been that way. I was standing about a month ago in front of 100 plus folks I did not know, thanking the Lord for saving my soul and other things. Since I have started getting my life back on track for the Lord life has been so much more peaceful. Nothing like sitting in church and the Lord start dealing with you, heart racing because you know you have to do or say something. Even my wife can tell and visa versa when the other is being dealt with. She will even slide over just a little bit cause she knows I am fixing to do something whatever it may be. If you ever get in the right place, the place you need to be, and the spirit starts moving you will know it.
> 
> Example: Our pastor preached a strong sermon last Sunday morning. Another preacher happens to be at church that evening and our pastor was lead to ask him to deliver the sermon. You tell me the odds of t preachers, who have not spoke, on the same day giving the same message just in different words. When God moves you will know it.



Thank you for sharing that.  Truly.

Can you tell me how you know that what is happening is caused by God and not yourself?  I mean, can you tell me how you know that you're not "thinking" that God is moving your thoughts?

Would you say that it's a similar experience to believing in a lucky rabbits foot or a lucky crank bait in that when you have them, magical things happen, things that defy reason?  Would you say that someone who believes in the power of casting spells feels them working in the same way that you feel God working?  If not, how is it different?


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## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> Maybe neither.. I think it was the fact that I was there. Not the fact that I was inside of a building labelled a church. I think it's difficult for us to not be in his presence so I don't think that's it either. It was the step I took with an open mind.



So would you say that when you decided to believe that you believed?  I mean, that's really what we've all been harping on from the beginning.  

Do you think that that's no longer irrational or does it just not matter anymore?


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## TripleXBullies

ambush80 said:


> What things seem ridiculous?



I still think the poofing things in to existence doesn't fit what we see. I still think the guy that talked about there must be a God who made the banana to fit exactly in our hands is annoying. There was no Sun, Earth or Moon before it was made... What was a day? IDK. it's a lot to think about... The kind of thing I want to know the details of for it to make sense for me.


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## ambush80

j_seph said:


> It is a feeling that is hard to describe IMO. I was not even going to open his post up as to where it was at but felt I needed to. After I read some of his post about his changes I told my wife. By the time I was done typing it out I had tears in my eyes as did she after she read it. There is a change in your heart, that is where Christ lives at not in our carnal minds.
> .



What would you say if I told you that I can change what I feel in my heart with my mind?  Would you say that that's impossible?


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## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> I still think the poofing things in to existence doesn't fit what we see. I still think the guy that talked about there must be a God who made the banana to fit exactly in our hands is annoying. There was no Sun, Earth or Moon before it was made... What was a day? IDK. it's a lot to think about... The kind of thing I want to know the details of for it to make sense for me.



Why did you limit yourself to the God of Abraham?  Why didn't you try Buddhism or Wiccanism?


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## TripleXBullies

ambush80 said:


> So would you say that when you decided to believe that you believed?  I mean, that's really what we've all been harping on from the beginning.
> 
> Do you think that that's no longer irrational or does it just not matter anymore?



I have seen things happening in my life... even 5 years ago when I got divorced... that I now think God had a hand in which makes it rational enough for me. 

I'll go in to more detail tomorrow.


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## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> I have seen things happening in my life... even 5 years ago when I got divorced... that I now think God had a hand in which makes it rational enough for me.
> 
> I'll go in to more detail tomorrow.



Aren't you concerned that what you are doing is confirmation bias, meaning you have an agenda and then you make make the facts fit the agenda?  Basically, you aren't being objective anymore.

I'm so excited.  If anyone can explain faith rationally it's got to be a newly minted believer.  Thanks for being here.


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## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> I know you brother. Thanks for the reassurance though.



I'm glad you know that.

Other believers,

Take note.  I plan to ask XXX the same questions in the same way that I do any other believer and he will most likely not think I'm being heretical or snide.  That should show you that if you're taking offense to someone asking you about your faith that the problem might be with you.


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## bullethead

TripleXBullies said:


> I still think the poofing things in to existence doesn't fit what we see. I still think the guy that talked about there must be a God who made the banana to fit exactly in our hands is annoying. There was no Sun, Earth or Moon before it was made... What was a day? IDK. it's a lot to think about... The kind of thing I want to know the details of for it to make sense for me.


I can see why someone would believe in a God but I have a hard time going to a place, such as a church, where a specific religion is taught and worshiped because of writings in a  a book that took place when things we now know were not conceivable then. I think you ,like me, have some real issues with what is contained in that book and why I cannot narrow a god down to any specific one that I have ever heard of. 
I could, and I know I did for a while, worship my best version of a god. The best one that I could concoct in my own mind. For instance I decided to overlook all of the inconsistencies, lies, contradictions, historial inaccuracies, scientific wrongs erc etc etc in the Bible and instead concentrate on all the positives. But ultimately I felt that I am worshiping the God of the Bible but not because of what is contained in the Bible...which is the whole basis of my knowledge of that god. So if I feel those writings are faulty how couldn't the god (s) contained within also be just as faulty?
Because of that I am not worshiping the God of the Bible, the god of the Jews, the god of the Christians...I was worshiping my own "best of" version.


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## bullethead

ambush80 said:


> I'm glad you know that.
> 
> Other believers,
> 
> Take note.  I plan to ask XXX the same questions in the same way that I do any other believer and he will most likely not think I'm being heretical or snide.  That should show you that if you're taking offense to someone asking you about your faith that the problem might be with you.


I feel confident that XXX will be as honest as he possibly can and take our questions as legitimate inquiries rather than insults to his beliefs. Hard questions are not easy to ask or answer. That is why both have to be to the point and honest.


----------



## bullethead

bullethead said:


> I can see why someone would believe in a God but I have a hard time going to a place, such as a church, where a specific religion is taught and worshiped because of writings in a  a book that took place when things we now know were not conceivable then. I think you ,like me, have some real issues with what is contained in that book and why I cannot narrow a god down to any specific one that I have ever heard of.
> I could, and I know I did for a while, worship my best version of a god. The best one that I could concoct in my own mind. For instance I decided to overlook all of the inconsistencies, lies, contradictions, historial inaccuracies, scientific wrongs erc etc etc in the Bible and instead concentrate on all the positives. But ultimately I felt that I am worshiping the God of the Bible but not because of what is contained in the Bible...which is the whole basis of my knowledge of that god. So if I feel those writings are faulty how couldn't the god (s) contained within also be just as faulty?
> Because of that I am not worshiping the God of the Bible, the god of the Jews, the god of the Christians...I was worshiping my own "best of" version.


And to add I feel because of my past Christianity, growing up in both Catholic and Protestant churches and ...yes Israel...my devotion for many years I still that get sense or feeling of something different while being in a  Christian Church. But I get that feeling in every Christian church I attend (weddings, funerals, graduations, etc) and I get that same feeling when I have attended ceremonies involving other faiths.  I can't  say one is any different as far as "better" for me but each seem to tap into my prior believer self.

Like I said though, standing on a field in Gettysburg or Manassas or Fredericksburg gives me another sense that is unique. Religious like in feeling but more about a realization of what people went through, sacrifices made, courage, the magnitude of it all on the very ground I stand on.


----------



## JB0704

TripleXBullies said:


> I'm lost on the billy.



Useless Billy threads in the campfire.  Stop by n give em a visit.  A few BBQ gurus hang out in there.  Mostly just relaxed folks goofing off through the day.


----------



## Artfuldodger

JB0704 said:


> Useless Billy threads in the campfire.  Stop by n give em a visit.  A few BBQ gurus hang out in there.  Mostly just relaxed folks goofing off through the day.



I never understood what those were about. You mean Useless Billy isn't just one real individual? Is he one of many like the dumb blond or Little Johnny?


----------



## Artfuldodger

I wonder if many random Christians could feel "at home" or "holy" in non-familiar places such as; 
A Hindu temple, Jewish synagogue, Masonic temple, Mormon temple, etc. Not that some of those aren't Christian but could contain elements of other religions.

Perhaps a spiritual feeling beyond understanding that one would contribute to God or at least the un-dead. Spirit or spirits depending on ones upbringing.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Most Christians believe that God has pricked their heats and leads them to believe in Jesus. I'm not sure how this goes about if say one such as myself was brought up in the Church. I believed and therefore I never had a hallelujah moment others have had. Mine was developed slowly over time. I can't remember ever not believing. 
With others it appears to be brought on by a time of drugs, alcohol, financial woes, gambling, adultery, or a bad marriage. Things so bad that God brought them out of it. Folks like that do have a moment in time where God lifts them up to a better place. They might even appreciate God more like reformed smokers. 

I would assume the God of the Hindus does the same. Maybe it's the same God. Some believe this awakening is done by the Holy Spirit and can awaken a sleeping Pagan in a land far away that has never even heard of Jesus.

So maybe this awakening or pricking can be in a moment or slow depending on what God sees he needs to do. He might see one crashing on the highway in the future and quickly pricks their heart to save then from He11.


----------



## TripleXBullies

I did. Idk that I have any decent reason for you why I didn't try them. 



ambush80 said:


> Why did you limit yourself to the God of Abraham?  Why didn't you try Buddhism or Wiccanism?


----------



## TripleXBullies

ambush80 said:


> Aren't you concerned that what you are doing is confirmation bias, meaning you have an agenda and then you make make the facts fit the agenda?  Basically, you aren't being objective anymore.
> 
> I'm so exited.  If anyone can explain faith rationally it's got to be a newly minted believer.  Thanks for being here.



I didn't have the agenda before. I was obviously open to it. Before I went to church that morning I said to whoever might be listening.. if you want me there, you're going to have to change my mind. I had been where y'all are for 10 years.


----------



## JB0704

Artfuldodger said:


> I never understood what those were about. You mean Useless Billy isn't just one real individual? Is he one of many like the dumb blond or Little Johnny?



He is a fictional character, who usually does something that is trending in other sub forums......and the threads stay on topic for about 5-6 posts then wander off into whatever else folks want to discuss.


----------



## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> I did. Idk that I have any decent reason for you why I didn't try them.



Don't you think it's weird that you wouldn't try them?


----------



## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> I didn't have the agenda before. I was obviously open to it. Before I went to church that morning I said to whoever might be listening.. if you want me there, you're going to have to change my mind. I had been where y'all are for 10 years.



Suppose you have the same experience in a mosque or a synagogue or a Bahai temple.  Aren't you compelled to do that research?  You say you still question.  Isn't that an important question?


----------



## j_seph

ambush80 said:


> Thank you for sharing that.  Truly.
> 
> Can you tell me how you know that what is happening is caused by God and not yourself?  I mean, can you tell me how you know that you're not "thinking" that God is moving your thoughts?
> 
> Would you say that it's a similar experience to believing in a lucky rabbits foot or a lucky crank bait in that when you have them, magical things happen, things that defy reason?  Would you say that someone who believes in the power of casting spells feels them working in the same way that you feel God working?  If not, how is it different?



*Can you tell me how you know that what is happening is caused by God and  not yourself?  I mean, can you tell me how you know that you're not  "thinking" that God is moving your thoughts?*
Thoughts of just the mind lead to bad things. Example, someone does you wrong and you seek revenge. What are your thoughts? They are thoughts of how you can revenge them, what you can do to get them back. (this is a hard one for me and satan trys to get in and keep those thoughts there) But rebuking him in Christ name he must flee. Christ in your heart those thoughts of revenge you will get convicted for and asking for his help in those times you find yourself doing the unthinkable and letting it slide, even feeling love for the person who did you wrong. My wife is trying to get her windshield fixed, well the guy she was told to call doesn't do it anymore and he kept calling her like 15 times since Friday asking if she got in touch with someone else. Last call he got to getting personal asking questions that had nothing to do with glass. The old me would have drove to his shop, called him and went down one side and up the other. I made a call to him and it ended up being a pleasant conversation, no anger, fussing, swearing but very apologetic. Yes when I called I was mad but God's conviction stopped all that as soon as he said hello.

*Would you say that it's a similar experience to believing in a lucky  rabbits foot or a lucky crank bait in that when you have them, magical  things happen, things that defy reason?
*No because everything my savior does is for a purpose or a reason. I felt I needed to go the alter at a church a while back. I played the well if he goes I will go, maybe this is just me thinking I need to. So I said if he goes up there I will. Who was the first one to go to the alter? That guy, where did I find myself at? On my knees beside him, hand on his shoulder praying. 

*  Would you say that someone who believes in the power of casting spells  feels them working in the same way that you feel God working?  If not,  how is it different?
*They feel them working but do they SEE them working? That would be of Satan and he can do some crazy things as well, none of any good.
I see God working, that is the difference. I was on a road that was dangerous, not any place someone should be. I was convicted when it started and I shrugged it off. Things got worse and worse till I had no other option but to hit my knees. I prayed that things would get better (they did not) they actually got worse. Which made me ask even more for things to get better. That was when my now wife pinged me on messenger. Gal I went to school with 37 years, had not spoke to her in 25 years and never payed her any attention. See God dealt with my heart, had I used my carnal mind I would still be in that situation if not worse, maybe even dead. Now I have a beautiful wife, step kids that look at me as daddy, a 27 year old stepdaughter who calls herself my daughter. I have lost friends since this but I have gained more friends that need to be in my life. Another example, I tried for years to find someone to hunt hogs with that had dogs. I have been in last month twice with some fellows and made great friends with them. One owns land 3 others own dogs. One is a preacher, the other 3 are strong Christian men. Our first hunt we went to meeting in the middle of a dirt road, hour later dead hog. Your 2nd question, there was a reason these guys were placed into my life. Because I followed my heart to do what the Lord convicted me of to do.


----------



## TripleXBullies

This may not be a great analogy but it helps me some. I love my wife. I DO NOT love everything about her. There are things about her I don't understand. There are things about her that annoy  me. If I concentrate on those things all of the time we will not have a very good relationship.

Some things with her I have to just overlook but there are just as many things that I overlook only because I don't and sometimes can't understand them because my brain doesn't work like hers. 

While this is still an challenge for me with some things, I overlook things that bother me hoping that at some point I can understand them better. But yes, I do overlook some things.







bullethead said:


> I can see why someone would believe in a God but I have a hard time going to a place, such as a church, where a specific religion is taught and worshiped because of writings in a  a book that took place when things we now know were not conceivable then. I think you ,like me, have some real issues with what is contained in that book and why I cannot narrow a god down to any specific one that I have ever heard of.
> I could, and I know I did for a while, worship my best version of a god. The best one that I could concoct in my own mind. For instance I decided to overlook all of the inconsistencies, lies, contradictions, historial inaccuracies, scientific wrongs erc etc etc in the Bible and instead concentrate on all the positives. But ultimately I felt that I am worshiping the God of the Bible but not because of what is contained in the Bible...which is the whole basis of my knowledge of that god. So if I feel those writings are faulty how couldn't the god (s) contained within also be just as faulty?
> Because of that I am not worshiping the God of the Bible, the god of the Jews, the god of the Christians...I was worshiping my own "best of" version.


----------



## j_seph

ambush80 said:


> Suppose you have the same experience in a mosque or a synagogue or a Bahai temple.  Aren't you compelled to do that research?  You say you still question.  Isn't that an important question?


I have been to other churches of the same faith I am. Learned about the bible and Christ but people would not do as the Lord said, move when they were told to and follow their hearts. It was a dead service, I have been to other churches and folks followed the Lord and it went wide open for hours.


----------



## TripleXBullies

bullethead said:


> I feel confident that XXX will be as honest as he possibly can and take our questions as legitimate inquiries rather than insults to his beliefs. Hard questions are not easy to ask or answer. That is why both have to be to the point and honest.



I have seen nothing insulting from you guys and I don't expect to from the core guys I remember. 

I'll be completely honest.. but I can't say I'll be able to give answers to everything, but I'll be honest about it. I won't give you lines.


----------



## TripleXBullies

That feeling I got wasn't about the building or even the people at that time. I do feel at home with the people now but I didn't know any of them then. It was a comfort that I can only attribute to an answered prayer. My heart (my head, whatever. Don't get technical, you ALL know what I mean), was COMPLETELY changed that day. A brick wall was torn down. I am confident you guys know the wall I'm talking about. Everything you hear hits the wall.. I do get the feeling that some of you genuinely look for some explanation that will jump over the wall... but I honestly don't think that's going to happen. NO explanation ever could have done that for me. The explanations can't do that to the wall. 



Artfuldodger said:


> I wonder if many random Christians could feel "at home" or "holy" in non-familiar places such as;
> A Hindu temple, Jewish synagogue, Masonic temple, Mormon temple, etc. Not that some of those aren't Christian but could contain elements of other religions.
> 
> Perhaps a spiritual feeling beyond understanding that one would contribute to God or at least the un-dead. Spirit or spirits depending on ones upbringing.


----------



## TripleXBullies

I was in a decent place at that time. No real issues. Life was going well. I had gone through a 2 year relationship after my divorce. that I was happy to be out of. Dating again. Dating a LOT actually... Other than the idea that I was "lost," my life in the worldly sense was perfectly fine. My decision to go to church that morning wasn't out of any desperation or being in the deepest, darkest place of my life.



Artfuldodger said:


> With others it appears to be brought on by a time of drugs, alcohol, financial woes, gambling, adultery, or a bad marriage. Things so bad that God brought them out of it. Folks like that do have a moment in time where God lifts them up to a better place. They might even appreciate God more like reformed smokers.


----------



## ambush80

j_seph said:


> *Can you tell me how you know that what is happening is caused by God and  not yourself?  I mean, can you tell me how you know that you're not  "thinking" that God is moving your thoughts?*
> Thoughts of just the mind lead to bad things. Example, someone does you wrong and you seek revenge. What are your thoughts? They are thoughts of how you can revenge them, what you can do to get them back. (this is a hard one for me and satan trys to get in and keep those thoughts there) But rebuking him in Christ name he must flee. Christ in your heart those thoughts of revenge you will get convicted for and asking for his help in those times you find yourself doing the unthinkable and letting it slide, even feeling love for the person who did you wrong. My wife is trying to get her windshield fixed, well the guy she was told to call doesn't do it anymore and he kept calling her like 15 times since Friday asking if she got in touch with someone else. Last call he got to getting personal asking questions that had nothing to do with glass. The old me would have drove to his shop, called him and went down one side and up the other. I made a call to him and it ended up being a pleasant conversation, no anger, fussing, swearing but very apologetic. Yes when I called I was mad but God's conviction stopped all that as soon as he said hello.
> 
> *Would you say that it's a similar experience to believing in a lucky  rabbits foot or a lucky crank bait in that when you have them, magical  things happen, things that defy reason?
> *No because everything my savior does is for a purpose or a reason. I felt I needed to go the alter at a church a while back. I played the well if he goes I will go, maybe this is just me thinking I need to. So I said if he goes up there I will. Who was the first one to go to the alter? That guy, where did I find myself at? On my knees beside him, hand on his shoulder praying.
> 
> *  Would you say that someone who believes in the power of casting spells  feels them working in the same way that you feel God working?  If not,  how is it different?
> *They feel them working but do they SEE them working? That would be of Satan and he can do some crazy things as well, none of any good.
> I see God working, that is the difference. I was on a road that was dangerous, not any place someone should be. I was convicted when it started and I shrugged it off. Things got worse and worse till I had no other option but to hit my knees. I prayed that things would get better (they did not) they actually got worse. Which made me ask even more for things to get better. That was when my now wife pinged me on messenger. Gal I went to school with 37 years, had not spoke to her in 25 years and never payed her any attention. See God dealt with my heart, had I used my carnal mind I would still be in that situation if not worse, maybe even dead. Now I have a beautiful wife, step kids that look at me as daddy, a 27 year old stepdaughter who calls herself my daughter. I have lost friends since this but I have gained more friends that need to be in my life. Another example, I tried for years to find someone to hunt hogs with that had dogs. I have been in last month twice with some fellows and made great friends with them. One owns land 3 others own dogs. One is a preacher, the other 3 are strong Christian men. Our first hunt we went to meeting in the middle of a dirt road, hour later dead hog. Your 2nd question, there was a reason these guys were placed into my life. Because I followed my heart to do what the Lord convicted me of to do.



That's alot.  I'll have to get back to you later.


----------



## TripleXBullies

ambush80 said:


> Don't you think it's weird that you wouldn't try them?



At this point I wouldn't. I don't think it's weird that I wouldn't try them at that point. I didn't want to try anything like that. I had a reason to try this so I did. 

When I was atheist, I was always open to the idea that one day I  might change. I had done it once already of course. I highly doubted it but I wasn't naive enough to say it could never happen. At this point, I highly doubt that I would ever change, but like before, I don't really think anything is out of the realm of possibility.


----------



## TripleXBullies

ambush80 said:


> So would you say that when you decided to believe that you believed?



Re-reading, I'm not sure what this means exactly.

Being there that morning I decided to give it a chance because I didn't hate it like I had before. I didn't at that moment have any ahah that it was all true beyond any doubt. 


I'm being very vulnerable here for you guys...

I love my wife. I realized that not too long after I went to church with her that morning. I liked her before. I liked her a lot. After a few weeks in that church and allowing myself to do things that I had despised before I started to feel like that was what I needed to do. It felt RIGHT... like you see that tree and there must be a fish there... and you end up pulling in a big one. Or you see the right pine beside the pine thicket across from the rubs... and the morning he comes out right in front of you. It just felt like I was doing what I was supposed to be doing. 

I tried to connect in praise type music one morning. Something I despised and thought was really stupid before. I felt dumb doing it.  Like - REALLY? Are you kidding me?  My attitude was give me something, God. I'm trying here. Give me something. What do you have for me?

I got this picture of my wife's face. My eyes were closed my face was pointed upward (I'm just painting the picture, I don't think looking upward had anything to do with it.) and I got a very clear picture of my wife's (girlfriend at the time) in my mind.

I opened my eyes, looking forward and smirked at myself... "that's stupid." I thought to myself. That's my own mind just telling me what I want to hear. Something that makes the right sense to me. That's ridiculous. Ok, let me get that stuff, my own thoughts, out of my head so if there's a god that wants to talk to me or show me something, he can.... I closed my eyes again and got the exact same picture  and what I heard (felt, yes, it was a feeling. I didn't hear audible words) was the God I was there to hear from say, "I'm not kidding." It was a stern type of a feeling too. Like hello stupid, you're being stupid for thinking it's stupid. 

I don't know that you'd say I was "pricked." That word doesn't seem to describe it well for me. It was more like WHOA. It was still not the fall on my face it's all true moment... It was definitely WHOA...........


----------



## WaltL1

TXB,
Just want to say you are doing a great job describing how you got to where you are at.
I and Im sure we, really appreciate your honesty and willingness to go out on a limb telling us about this.
Im going to do a really crappy job of wording this but Im hoping you dont get caught up in the "religion" of your belief.
To me, where you are at now seems really honest and "pure".


----------



## TripleXBullies

I don't like the way that the term is being used to re-brand Christianity. It's it is what it is, but it's being used to package up things that have become disliked by many just to re-brand. It's never been helpful to me. I think it's just a preference. Just call it what it is. The church and RELIGION has and will almost always have issues because it's carried on by people. It's still a religion. 

My pastor has used the term and phrases you're used to... but I do think it's just my preference... that re-branding doesn't work for me.


----------



## TripleXBullies

WaltL1 said:


> TXB,
> Just want to say you are doing a great job describing how you got to where you are at.




That's really all I wanted to do. I'm not trying to convince anyone why they should do anything.


----------



## TripleXBullies

Just some more pics. 





My new dog's dad. I produced his father. He was my pick of the litter from that litter. Loco bites hard... I love this dog. I had to give him back to his old owner when I moved from Dallas. We live on the golf course and I'd be worried about him mauling a golfer...





I had him for a few months.


----------



## TripleXBullies




----------



## ambush80

XXX,

I was working in a house by myself re-framing a bathroom and I glanced up and saw a man in overalls and a straw hat at the end of the hall about 20 feet away from me.  I looked down, glanced up again and he was gone.  

I can make all kinds of hypotheses about what happened, what I saw and what is real.  All we can do is use our best judgement and try to make sense of things that sometimes don't make sense.  

It's the tools that I find the most important for me and I want to use the right tools for the job.  I want to trust the tools, I know I can't trust my lying eyes or my foolish heart.  

You and your new family look very happy (except for that young man who seems to be thinking of wedding cake) and I'm very happy for you all.  Best wishes for a joyful, meaningful life.  I hope you will keep answering my questions, especially as you grow in your faith.

Just a thought,  have you tried to go back and look at some of things that you have said here in the past?  Maybe you can pick some of the highlights and try to tell us what changed.  It might also be useful to use this discussion forum as a record of how your thinking slowly or rapidly changes.


----------



## TripleXBullies

Exactly. And I agree with foolish heart completely. 

He must have been thinking about the cake lol! HA!!

I have thought about looking at those old posts. I figured y'all 
would show me.

Again, I think it's all about perspective. I think the WHOA moment was when my perspective really began to change. Prior to that, for weeks, I was comfortable enough to the idea of my perspective changing. That was the closest thing to the voice of anything supernatural I have ever heard. I have absolutely no way of telling you why that is, and why it wasn't just a coincidence or my foolish mind... Like I said, I thought it was my foolish mind...


----------



## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> Exactly. And I agree with foolish heart completely.
> 
> He must have been thinking about the cake lol! HA!!
> 
> I have thought about looking at those old posts. I figured y'all
> would show me.
> 
> Again, I think it's all about perspective. I think the WHOA moment was when my perspective really began to change. Prior to that, for weeks, I was comfortable enough to the idea of my perspective changing. That was the closest thing to the voice of anything supernatural I have ever heard. I have absolutely no way of telling you why that is, and why it wasn't just a coincidence or my foolish mind... Like I said, I thought it was my foolish mind...



I can see from someone's perspective and still not believe that they're processing things correctly.  For example, I can truly understand why someone would want to invite me to their church or pray for me when they find out I'm in trouble.  It's the kindest most loving thing that they _think_ they can do, but they might be completely wrong.

I can see how believing in God makes the Universe make sense.  If you say "He has plan", heck, everything makes sense.  It doesn't help solve any problem in any practical way.  It only allows you to justify any outcome.  Throw in some Satan and now there's REALLY no more personal responsibility.


----------



## JB0704

BTW, 3X.....I saw an "I do BBQ" sign the other day on hwy 92, I think your idea has been poached.


----------



## TripleXBullies

October last year. I still believe this.



TripleXBullies said:


> I child can tell you what the core message is, but I believe absolutely no child can read the bible and based on reading it tell you what the core message is. For that matter, most people don't. I know very few people who have claimed to have read the bible front to back. And even fewer who have claimed to have read the bible front to back and been able to decide the core  message without have been bombarded by other ideas of the core message.


----------



## TripleXBullies

JB0704 said:


> BTW, Ambush.....I saw an "I do BBQ" sign the other day on hwy 92, I think your idea has been poached.



That was ambush's idea?


----------



## ambush80

JB0704 said:


> BTW, Ambush.....I saw an "I do BBQ" sign the other day on hwy 92, I think your idea has been poached.



Which idea?


----------



## JB0704

TripleXBullies said:


> That was ambush's idea?



Lols.......I had just read Ambush's post and had his name on the brain....I meant 3X, I will correct


----------



## JB0704

ambush80 said:


> Which idea?



See above, mis spoke, meant 3X


----------



## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> October last year. I still believe this.




So do you believe that Jesus is Lord and that he ascended into Heaven and all the other miracles in the Bible?


----------



## ambush80

What was the idea?


----------



## JB0704

ambush80 said:


> What was the idea?



He had a BBQ for his wedding reception, called it an "I do BBQ," think he had a thread on it in the cafe.......Mrs JB n I showed up n met him his daughter n his lovely bride.  They are good folks.


----------



## TripleXBullies

TripleXBullies said:


> It took me two days to get through this. The OP was great, thought provoking... DIFFERENT!   Then we get back to the same old same old. JB has it right though... although it does seem like you're trying to convince others, you know you don't have anything new to bring to the table. You know what you're bringing..
> 
> I've had some recent "signs" that I've been dealing with and trying to understand myself. Still no burning bush.



Lots of "signs"...


----------



## TripleXBullies

JB0704 said:


> He had a BBQ for his wedding reception, called it an "I do BBQ," think he had a thread on it in the cafe.......Mrs JB n I showed up n met him his daughter n his lovely bride.  They are good folks.



Twas a great time !


----------



## ambush80

JB0704 said:


> He had a BBQ for his wedding reception, called it an "I do BBQ," think he had a thread on it in the cafe.......Mrs JB n I showed up n met him his daughter n his lovely bride.  They are good folks.



Ahhhh.  I see.

"I Do"  BBQ.


----------



## JB0704

3X, Ambush, n Walt.......we all should go fishing one day.  I have a spot, it jsut wasn't worth the trip this year.  Maybe we could make it happen........heck, Id be up for some late season trout too.


----------



## JB0704

I been promissin' 3x for two years I would show him where it's at.....was waiting for the white bass to get in there good this year and it just never happened.


----------



## TripleXBullies

ambush80 said:


> So do you believe that Jesus is Lord and that he ascended into Heaven and all the other miracles in the Bible?



I believe that yes. I do find myself thinking back to the idea of the construct. Why must that be the only way to do it because it makes no sense to me. The creator of the universe and everything we know couldn't have come up with something better than this???

That's one of those things if I keep dwelling on it then it will likely drive me back. I love my wife but if I spend too much time dwelling on the things that annoy me, we're doomed. She's.... special... sometimes... and my mind has absolutely no way to relate to some of the things she does. I see that right beside me in the flesh. Our minds work nothing alike sometimes. 

ALL of the miracles in the bible? I'd say no, but I also can't say any in particular is obviously bogus. And all of them as miracles in the sense you'd like to see, maybe not. This is an interesting topic though, miracles. Let me get back to you on this one in a couple of months.


----------



## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> Lots of "signs"...




Have you always seen "signs"? Do you think that it's possible that if you look for signs that you might see them where otherwise they would just be normal, every day occurrences? Not in the way that there's deer sign everywhere, even in Stone Mt. Park and at the land fill, but in the way that Bigfoot seekers tend to see Bigfoot.

I know the flags go up when Bigfoot gets mentioned but it's shorthand for phenomena that seems very specific to individuals and is darn near impossible to substantiate.


----------



## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> I believe that yes. I do find myself thinking back to the idea of the construct. Why must that be the only way to do it because it makes no sense to me. The creator of the universe and everything we know couldn't have come up with something better than this???
> 
> That's one of those things if I keep dwelling on it then it will likely drive me back. I love my wife but if I spend too much time dwelling on the things that annoy me, we're doomed. She's.... special... sometimes... and my mind has absolutely no way to relate to some of the things she does. I see that right beside me in the flesh. Our minds work nothing alike sometimes.
> 
> ALL of the miracles in the bible? I'd say no, but I also can't say any in particular is obviously bogus. And all of them as miracles in the sense you'd like to see, maybe not. This is an interesting topic though, miracles. Let me get back to you on this one in a couple of months.



Why is the resurrection and ascension miracle easier for you accept than any of the others?

Why would you not dwell on something that deserves dwelling on?  Is it an issue that would truly drive you apart?  If so, then I understand your conversion in a very specific light.  We do what we must.

Ha ha.  I reminded myself of this guy:


----------



## TripleXBullies

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?p=8909750&highlight=#post8909750

Here's one. One of my last fairly atheist posts.. I actually still feel pretty much the same way... but that's because I know you guys... and I've been there. This is pretty useless.


----------



## TripleXBullies

Darn near impossible to substantiate. Yes. While I've recently gone through what your walls still shut down, I don't have any key. I don't have the trail cam or camera phone proof or evidence that I too was once looking for. 

IT IS POSSIBLE. I don't feel I am wrong to say that. 



ambush80 said:


> Have you always seen "signs"? Do you think that it's possible that if you look for signs that you might see them where otherwise they would just be normal, every day occurrences? Not in the way that there's deer sign everywhere, even in Stone Mt. Park and at the land fill, but in the way that Bigfoot seekers tend to see Bigfoot.
> 
> I know the flags go up when Bigfoot gets mentioned but it's shorthand for phenomena that seems very specific to individuals and is darn near impossible to substantiate.


----------



## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?p=8909750&highlight=#post8909750
> 
> Here's one. One of my last fairly atheist posts.. I actually still feel pretty much the same way... but that's because I know you guys... and I've been there. This is pretty useless.



But now you agree with the OP?


----------



## TripleXBullies

ambush80 said:


> Throw in some Satan and now there's REALLY no more personal responsibility.



I definitely felt this way 3+ years ago. That a christian can do anything they want and chalk it up to him, ask for forgiveness and boom. 

I definitely don't feel like I have  a free pass.

Forgiveness is pretty big. I've learned a lot in that area.


----------



## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> Darn near impossible to substantiate. Yes. While I've recently gone through what your walls still shut down, I don't have any key. I don't have the trail cam or camera phone proof or evidence that I too was once looking for.
> 
> IT IS POSSIBLE. I don't feel I am wrong to say that.



I think you're doing what they do now.  You claim that we have walls.  I'm open.  Wide open.  Bring the bolt of lightning.  Strike me and my loved ones down.  I'm begging for it.

Or just a burning, talking bush.  That would work,too.

Pray with me over the internets.  "Lord, I'm listening.  My heart is open and my walls are down.  Show me you're there."  .........

Maybe I'm not as inspired by my life trajectory as you were by yours.  It'll take a miracle..


----------



## TripleXBullies

ambush80 said:


> But now you agree with the OP?



The first sentence, yes.


----------



## TripleXBullies

I'm sorry if I am wrong about you. I shouldn't have stated it like that. 

I had walls... and everything hit that wall and fell flat. Everything said here or anywhere else. It hit my wall and fell. I feel that's what happens to you guys too. You didn't build the wall, you may not even want the wall. It's just there. I only say that based on my own experience. Some of my walls are in this thread. 

My wall was NOT down when I said something like that. That's what I'm saying. I don't think I could ever have taken that wall down. THAT is my miracle. 

Incontheivable!

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?p=8904805&highlight=#post8904805



ambush80 said:


> I think you're doing what they do now.  You claim that we have walls.  I'm open.  Wide open.  Bring the bolt of lightning.  Strike me and my loved ones down.  I'm begging for it.
> 
> Or just a burning, talking bush.  That would work,too.
> 
> Pray with me over the internets.  "Lord, I'm listening.  My heart is open and my walls are down.  Show me you're there."  .........
> 
> Maybe I'm not as inspired by my life trajectory as you were by yours.  It'll take a miracle..


----------



## JB0704

JB0704 said:


> 3X, Ambush, n Walt.......we all should go fishing one day.  I have a spot, it jsut wasn't worth the trip this year.  Maybe we could make it happen........heck, Id be up for some late season trout too.



Bump


----------



## bullethead

Selective belief. A person goes along with some things and ignore the things that cause them to question.
I was there once.


----------



## TripleXBullies

JB0704 said:


> Bump



YES... and I want to hit some trout too.


----------



## JB0704

TripleXBullies said:


> YES... and I want to hit some trout too.



Cool.  Ambush knows a spot, and he shared it with me, and I will share it with you   Hopefully Ambush will come along, the conversation would be fantastic, and the beer after will be cold.


----------



## TripleXBullies

bullethead said:


> Selective belief. A person goes along with some things and ignore the things that cause them to question.
> I was there once.



I don't dwell on them but I don't completely ignore them. I don't understand them so I shouldn't dwell on them. Like when my wife does something that annoys me.


----------



## TripleXBullies

JB0704 said:


> Cool.  Ambush knows a spot, and he shared it with me, and I will share it with you   Hopefully Ambush will come along, the conversation would be fantastic, and the beer after will be cold.



I just ordered some 8lb flouro and some trout lures actually.


----------



## JB0704

TripleXBullies said:


> I just ordered some 8lb flouro and some trout lures actually.



Cool.  Let's get in touch and make it happen.  

You too Ambush n Walt.


----------



## JB0704

Bullet, if you feel like flying to ga for some 10" stocker trout come on down


----------



## TripleXBullies

ambush80 said:


> Maybe I'm not as inspired by my life trajectory as you were by yours.



What do you mean? I'm not taking any offense, just not exactly sure.


----------



## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> I'm sorry if I am wrong about you. I shouldn't have stated it like that.
> 
> I had walls... and everything hit that wall and fell flat. Everything said here or anywhere else. It hit my wall and fell. I feel that's what happens to you guys too. You didn't build the wall, you may not even want the wall. It's just there. I only say that based on my own experience. Some of my walls are in this thread.
> 
> My wall was NOT down when I said something like that. That's what I'm saying. I don't think I could ever have taken that wall down. THAT is my miracle.
> 
> Incontheivable!



No need to apologize.  It's still helpful to point out each others assumptions.  It always has been.  Maybe I have a wall.  The kind that you don't know you had until it's gone.  Like being blind and now seeing.  

I would say that your standard of evidence shifted.


----------



## ambush80

JB0704 said:


> Cool.  Let's get in touch and make it happen.
> 
> You too Ambush n Walt.



They're still there.


----------



## TripleXBullies

Maybe that's it. I had a wall that the evidence had to surmount... And no evidence ever did. Then the wall was removed. A wall I didn't construct consciously but i put everything to the test of the wall and it failed. Meaning nothing ever made a bit of difference to me. Nothing made me second guess. 



ambush80 said:


> No need to apologize.  It's still helpful to point out each others assumptions.  It always has been.  Maybe I have a wall.  The kind that you don't know you had until it's gone.  Like being blind and now seeing.
> 
> I would say that your standard of evidence shifted.


----------



## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> What do you mean? I'm not taking any offense, just not exactly sure.


 
I've never been in love with someone for whom belief would have been a deal breaker.  Maybe that one girl but I wasn't gonna marry her anyway.  I'm assuming it was a deal breaker.  Sorry if I'm wrong.


----------



## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> Maybe that's it. I had a wall that the evidence had to surmount... And no evidence ever did. Then the wall was removed. A wall I didn't construct consciously but i put everything to the test of the wall and it failed. Meaning nothing ever made a bit of difference to me. Nothing made me second guess.



And when the wall was gone, things that didn't make sense before now made sense?  And some of them you just quit thinking about?


----------



## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> Maybe that's it. I had a wall that the evidence had to surmount... And no evidence ever did. Then the wall was removed. A wall I didn't construct consciously but i put everything to the test of the wall and it failed. Meaning nothing ever made a bit of difference to me. Nothing made me second guess.



But other things like gravity or addition made it passed the wall every time?


----------



## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> Maybe that's it. I had a wall that the evidence had to surmount... And no evidence ever did. Then the wall was removed. A wall I didn't construct consciously but i put everything to the test of the wall and it failed. Meaning nothing ever made a bit of difference to me. Nothing made me second guess.




What, in retrospect, was the wall designed to keep out?


----------



## TripleXBullies

ambush80 said:


> I've never been in love with someone for whom belief would have been a deal breaker.  Maybe that one girl but I wasn't gonna marry her anyway.  I'm assuming it was a deal breaker.  Sorry if I'm wrong.



No. You're right about that part. It was a deal breaker. I didn't know I was in love with her at that point. What I believe was God showing me her face was when that happened. It was a few months after I went once.

I liked her. I had been on first dates with about 20 women over the past few months. She was one of only two I would have seen for a second time. So I liked her but I had plenty of options. The other girl I would have seen for a second time was cool. Pretty... high paying job +++.


----------



## TripleXBullies

ambush80 said:


> What, in retrospect, was the wall designed to keep out?



Um.... I'll go with BC... so I don't get flagged...


----------



## bullethead

TripleXBullies said:


> I don't dwell on them but I don't completely ignore them. I don't understand them so I shouldn't dwell on them. Like when my wife does something that annoys me.



You know what you are getting with your wife.
Unless she claims to be a god, she should certainly have faults just as we all do.

Should faults concerning the epitome of perfection be overlooked? Are faults god-like? 

In my own opinion a god would not even lend itself to anything but the ultimate truth.  A god couldnt be questioned. Anything less cannot be a god or worthy of my worship.


----------



## TripleXBullies

ambush80 said:


> But other things like gravity or addition made it passed the wall every time?



Addition yes... Gravity... Not like addition. Obviously I can see my feet stick to the ground.


----------



## TripleXBullies

bullethead said:


> You know what you are getting with your wife.
> Unless she claims to be a god, she should certainly have faults just as we all do.
> 
> Should faults concerning the epitome of perfection be overlooked? Are faults god-like?
> 
> In my own opinion a god would not even lend itself to anything but the ultimate truth.  A god couldnt be questioned. Anything less cannot be a god or worthy of my worship.



A lot of the things that annoy me about my wife aren't faults. They're differences. Some of them are... she's careless sometimes... She's forgetful... VERY forgetful... But some are just differences... that I can't understand how she gets to... I've driven myself bonkers trying to understand... so I've stopped trying...


----------



## TripleXBullies

ambush80 said:


> And some of them you just quit thinking about?



I quit getting hung up on. I still think about them from time to time.. and I hope I can find the answers I want for one day.


----------



## bullethead

JB0704 said:


> Bullet, if you feel like flying to ga for some 10" stocker trout come on down



Appreciated Jb. I would love to hang with you guys for day but it is too busy up here right now with my business and archery season opening on Saturday.

Let me know if any of you ever get up to the Keystone State.


----------



## bullethead

TripleXBullies said:


> A lot of the things that annoy me about my wife aren't faults. They're differences. Some of them are... she's careless sometimes... She's forgetful... VERY forgetful... But some are just differences... that I can't understand how she gets to... I've driven myself bonkers trying to understand... so I've stopped trying...


I understand that regarding the Mrs.
Do you expect less from a god?


----------



## ambush80

So when the wall was down and the BC was allowed in, did the BC now make sense or it didn't matter anymore?


----------



## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> No. You're right about that part. It was a deal breaker. I didn't know I was in love with her at that point. What I believe was God showing me her face was when that happened. It was a few months after I went once.
> 
> I liked her. I had been on first dates with about 20 women over the past few months. She was one of only two I would have seen for a second time. So I liked her but I had plenty of options. The other girl I would have seen for a second time was cool. Pretty... high paying job +++.



The conversions by situation are always interesting.   Jail, cancer, divorce, falling in love.  The conversions because something traumatic happened.  

I like the quiet conversions, too.  Sitting with a friend drinking beer looking at the stars and saying " I'm going to believe in Jesus".

Maybe that second girl was a Buddhist.  This would have been a very different conversation.


----------



## JB0704

bullethead said:


> Let me know if any of you ever get up to the Keystone State.



I may be up there in the next year or so for various things.  I will def look you up if I make it.  I got an invite to do a small game / flintlock deer hunt on the other side of the state this January.  If I make it up for that, I will try n swing through your part of town for a beer if you up for it.  If not, then next time.  Hopefully one day.


----------



## JB0704

ambush80 said:


> I like the quiet conversions, too.  Sitting with a friend drinking beer looking at the stars and saying " I'm going to believe in Jesus".



My moment of finality as far as God is concerned involved a deer stand and a satellite.  My "coming to Jesus" involved me n a buddy and a 12 pack of Red Stripe.

I think there was more to it than the girl with 3X.  I think by linking this to that diminishes the point he is trying to make.  Every man's greatest flaw is his pride........overcoming that would take a good bit, I think.

We all have reasons why we settle on the belief systems we hold.  I hope you understand that God is as real to most believers as he is false to you.


----------



## bullethead

JB0704 said:


> I may be up there in the next year or so for various things.  I will def look you up if I make it.  I got an invite to do a small game / flintlock deer hunt on the other side of the state this January.  If I make it up for that, I will try n swing through your part of town for a beer if you up for it.  If not, then next time.  Hopefully one day.


Absolutely. I would make the time to buy you a beer or three!
The largest Cabelas store is about 20 mins away in Hamburg, Pa too!


----------



## JB0704

I will ping you if I find out Im can come up, and I'll make sure to swing through your part of the state for those beers.  I still have family up there.  Almost went up to Quaryville about a month ago, but kids schedule wouldn't allow it.


----------



## bullethead

JB0704 said:


> I will ping you if I find out Im can come up, and I'll make sure to swing through your part of the state for those beers.  I still have family up there.  Almost went up to Quaryville about a month ago, but kids schedule wouldn't allow it.



Thanks bud.
If you would want to hit Cabelas there are some good eating places right there, I'll buy beers and eats.


----------



## JB0704

bullethead said:


> Thanks bud.
> If you would want to hit Cabelas there are some good eating places right there, I'll buy beers and eats.



Sounds like a plan!


----------



## JB0704

Btw, Bullet......the PA elk cam is a big hit up in the hunting forum.


----------



## TripleXBullies

ambush80 said:


> So when the wall was down and the BC was allowed in, did the BC now make sense or it didn't matter anymore?



Enough made more sense. I am definitely hoping some of those other things to do at some point.


----------



## ambush80

JB0704 said:


> My moment of finality as far as God is concerned involved a deer stand and a satellite.  My "coming to Jesus" involved me n a buddy and a 12 pack of Red Stripe.
> 
> I think there was more to it than the girl with 3X.  I think by linking this to that diminishes the point he is trying to make.  Every man's greatest flaw is his pride........overcoming that would take a good bit, I think.
> 
> We all have reasons why we settle on the belief systems we hold.  I hope you understand that God is as real to most believers as he is false to you.




That people find conversion in emotionally charged situations is a fact.  I think it's reasonable to try to understand why that is, don't you?  Trying to understand it shouldn't diminish the experience of it anymore that knowing that dopamine, oxytocin and the amygdala are all at work when we feel in love. 

I would say that it's more accurate to say that "there are reasons we settle on belief systems we hold".  They are closely linked to why we decide to hold them.  The investigation of those forces is what I thought we are doing on here, that and a little socializing.


----------



## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> Enough made more sense. I am definitely hoping some of those other things to do at some point.



How did you square the resurrection and ascension with your understanding of physics and what's your proof that they happened?


----------



## TripleXBullies

ambush80 said:


> The conversions by situation are always interesting.   Jail, cancer, divorce, falling in love.  The conversions because something traumatic happened.
> 
> I like the quiet conversions, too.  Sitting with a friend drinking beer looking at the stars and saying " I'm going to believe in Jesus".
> 
> Maybe that second girl was a Buddhist.  This would have been a very different conversation.



We have both considered that fact. Together. I definitely feel the situation was used... because it was useful. 

I don't know if it ever happens like that. "Hmm... I think I'm going to start believing in Jesus today." Maybe I guess I'll consider it does.


----------



## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> We have both considered that fact. Together. I definitely feel the situation was used... because it was useful.
> 
> I don't know if it ever happens like that. "Hmm... I think I'm going to start believing in Jesus today." Maybe I guess I'll consider it does.



I would say that all atheists and agnostics are in a state of readiness to start believing in Jesus, even Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris, certainly myself.  All that's lacking is sufficient proof.  You are an incredible resource to people like me who are looking for answers as to why people convert.  You remember clearly having the same questions as I do by for some reason those questions have either been answered or you found a way not to care about them.  I'm grateful that you're willing to talk about your experience with me.


----------



## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> We have both considered that fact. Together. I definitely feel the situation was used... because it was useful.



Did you always feel as if you were able to interpret happenings as signs of a mysterious purpose, even when you were a non-believer?


----------



## j_seph

Check out this guy, he is CO-Pastor at a friend of mines church
http://truthministries.tv/dave-glander

"Dave Glander was formerly a devout Atheist prior to experiencing a radical encounter with Jesus Christ. He is now a deeply committed believer in Jesus Christ and the Bible. He is the founder of Truth Ministries, an apologetics-based ministry, and Tied2Christ which are both headquartered in Atlanta, GA. Dave is also a copastor at The WAY in Hoschton, GA.  He is very proud to be the co-founder of an Apologetics Youth Summer Camp called EQUIP Retreat, which serves to equip students with absolute truths to support their Christian faith, empowering them to really own their faith and the boldness to share it with others. He has taught at major national and regional conferences, universities, churches, and youth camps around the country. He is the author of the "Faith Survival Guide," an Apologetics curriculum that is making a great impact with college groups, small groups, youth camps, and church seminars. Dave is also an active columnist for one of the largest home-school magazines in the country. He is also the owner and curator for the Museum of Truth, which is an 1800 square foot traveling Biblical Museum. The museum's combined exhibits contain over 300 ancient artifacts, 60 ancient Bible leaves, and a comprehensive collection of materials that chronicle the rise of the modern nation of Israel. Dave is also an expert on the Shroud of Turin and travels with one of only five life-sized Shroud of Turin displays in the world. Additionally, Dave hosted the "What is Truth Radio Show," and has been a featured guest on television talk shows and nationally syndicated radio shows, speaking on the subjects of Apologetics and Eschatology. His dynamic teaching techniques, utilizing Museum of Truth artifacts and other props, leave a lasting impression on people of all ages. Dave currently lives in the Atlanta area with his wife, Stephanie, and their son, Marc."


----------



## TripleXBullies

ambush80 said:


> How did you square the resurrection and ascension with your understanding of physics and what's your proof that they happened?



I found zero proof of anything. The hole in the wall allowed my mind to be ok with that. 

Obviously physics doesn't matter. That's a useless conversation. 4 years ago I knew it was useless. Whatever may have happened was by definition supernatural.


----------



## TripleXBullies

JB0704 said:


> Every man's greatest flaw is his pride........overcoming that would take a good bit, I think.
> 
> We all have reasons why we settle on the belief systems we hold.  I hope you understand that God is as real to most believers as he is false to you.



I think pride has a lot to do with it.


----------



## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> I found zero proof of anything. The hole in the wall allowed my mind to be ok with that.
> 
> Obviously physics doesn't matter. That's a useless conversation. 4 years ago I knew it was useless. Whatever may have happened was by definition supernatural.




I would warn you to guard that hole well.  It's big enough to let all kinds of things through.


----------



## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> I found zero proof of anything. The hole in the wall allowed my mind to be ok with that.
> 
> Obviously physics doesn't matter. That's a useless conversation. 4 years ago I knew it was useless. Whatever may have happened was by definition supernatural.



What convinced you to allow for the supernatural?


----------



## TripleXBullies

ambush80 said:


> Did you always feel as if you were able to interpret happenings as signs of a mysterious purpose, even when you were a non-believer?




I don't think so. Not even when I was a believer before in my teens.  I think now I have some peace in interpreting them based on the outcomes since. 

I can give you another one.

About 30 days before we got married I put my house on the  market.. I'll finish this in a little bit. Busy morning at work.


----------



## TripleXBullies

ambush80 said:


> What convinced you to allow for the supernatural?



The only answer I can give you is that God broke a hole in my wall for himself. My wall still catches plenty of bc. Most of the bc it caught before. My kids telling me they brushed their teeth for example.. lol... 

Ambush, if YOU started allowing for that supernatural without the proof you are looking for, would you consider it a miracle of sorts?


----------



## JB0704

ambush80 said:


> That people find conversion in emotionally charged situations is a fact.  I think it's reasonable to try to understand why that is, don't you?  Trying to understand it shouldn't diminish the experience of it anymore that knowing that dopamine, oxytocin and the amygdala are all at work when we feel in love.



But, when we are discussing God, the question isn't the mechanical aspects of the beliefs, it's more why there are mechanical things to begin with.  You mention oxytocin, dopamine, etc.......did these chemicals evolve to create "love" for evolutionary advantages, or, do these chemicals exist because there presence creates evolutionary advantages.  We both agree there is a system, we disagree as to why.

Yes, people do convert in emotionally charged situations.  They make lots of decisions under various states of mind.  Let's assume the opposite for minute.......let's say a dude has discovered his girlfriend is cheating on him, is he wrong for saying "Im dun with her!"  Or, does the emotion validate the sentiment?  Sometimes, when he calms down, he goes back to the girl........in such a situation, was he right when he was finished with her, or when he took her back?



ambush80 said:


> The investigation of those forces is what I thought we are doing on here, that and a little socializing.



Sure.  I understand.  I can't speak for 3X. I can only say that I was not surprised at all when I found out that he had converted.  Perhaps the girl was a catalyst to what was coming?  Or, perhaps pride had prohibited him taking that leap?  There are multiple ways of looking at it.


----------



## centerpin fan

TripleXBullies said:


> The other girl I would have seen for a second time was cool. Pretty... high paying job +++.



I'm still holding out for a Kardashian sister, but I would consider other options.  Just have her join GON and PM me.


----------



## TripleXBullies

TripleXBullies said:


> About 30 days before we got married I put my house on the  market.. I'll finish this in a little bit. Busy morning at work.



This was like April of last year. The market was finally back enough for me to hopefully make some money on my house. Make back some of my mortgage payments that is. Not really come out on top. At one point, the foreclosure nextdoor sold for $30k. I had paid $118k for my house in 2005....

We wanted to be in Villa Rica close to her family and close to the church. We have 3 kids and her grandmother was going to live with us so we wanted 5 bedrooms. I really wanted to live in the middle of nowhere. 

The house she had been renting from her sister was in a an area where I could shoot off of her back porch. It was way too small for all of us but I had considered moving in with her as we tried to sell my old house. Not living in it and getting the dogs out seemed like it would help it sell. 

We looked at 10 houses or so. Nothing we really liked. Either way, I couldn't get a mortgage until I sold my old house. We saw house in Mirror Lake, country club community, that I didn't want to live in and the house didn't really appeal to me... but it was in our range and had 5 bedrooms... I wanted a shooting range in the backyard.... turns out there was a fairway in the backyard... We went to see it and we both liked it a lot. Surprisingly. And there was a for rent sign in the yard beside the for sale sign.. 

Within 7 days we moved in... Without selling my old house... Negotiated the rent from 1800 a month to A LOT LESS... the right sale price contingent on me selling my old house. So a temp rent with the contract on the sale. When we started negotiating I went in with the upper hand. I didn't have to move... so we went pretty low... trusting in anything really, but yes, in God that if he wanted us there, we'd be there. And it really surprised me.

Before we committed to that though, we had to be sure that her sister would be ok with only one more month of rent. We didn't want to leave them with the mortgage on that house. When she called her, her sister said that it would be great, they wanted to move back in anyway. 

This house is just a few miles from the church we're going to. That has been really helpful for us being there. 

We still understood the risk of the contract we were entering while still having to pay the mortgage on my other house... without any really interested buyers yet.. We both felt it was what we needed to do. 

Somehow, we held all of our bills for 6 months with mortgage and rent... and also had to buy a new car a few months later.. and while I've always had a good job with a decent salary, I've always been the type to worry about money... We made it. Finally sold the house in January, closed on the new house. 


YES, I agree, that could have all been coincidence... I have no proof that it was anything other than the way things went. Obviously all of the math worked out money wise... Partially due to two 10% bonuses that I didn't expect to be that big based on the last 10 years of bonuses I've gotten.. But one of those was spent entirely on a ring. I also got a 10% raise which was over twice what I have gotten for the last many years. But to me the biggest thing was that I wasn't worried about any of it. 


I think I covered most of that story... I have allowed myself to see that something else happened there. I don't think it was just coincidence that all of that happened the way that it did.


----------



## j_seph

Ambush, question for you:
It seems you are, for lack of better words seeking proof. Some sort of an undeniable proof is what it would take to make you believe, accept. Where does your conscience come from? It shows up at different times in different people. When it shows up this is when we as Christians become accountable for our sins.

James 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

1 John 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Romans 2:15
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

John 3:8
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Please do not take this wrong, I cannot convert you if that would be the term to use. As a Christian it is my place to speak what I know in my heart as the truth. On a lighter note, today is Wednesday September 28, 2016 *A.D.*
I know you have heard it many times, I will be praying for you. Prayers that you find what you are seeking or proof that will show you beyond a doubt what you are not seeking is in fact true. Harden not your heart

http://notashamedofthegospel.com/apologetics/proof-that-god-exists/


----------



## bullethead

j_seph said:


> Ambush, question for you:
> It seems you are, for lack of better words seeking proof. Some sort of an undeniable proof is what it would take to make you believe, accept. Where does your conscience come from? It shows up at different times in different people. When it shows up this is when we as Christians become accountable for our sins.
> 
> James 4:17
> Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
> 
> 1 John 3:6
> Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
> 
> Romans 2:15
> Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
> 
> John 3:8
> The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
> 
> Please do not take this wrong, I cannot convert you if that would be the term to use. As a Christian it is my place to speak what I know in my heart as the truth. On a lighter note, today is Wednesday September 28, 2016 *A.D.*
> I know you have heard it many times, I will be praying for you. Prayers that you find what you are seeking or proof that will show you beyond a doubt what you are not seeking is in fact true. Harden not your heart
> 
> http://notashamedofthegospel.com/apologetics/proof-that-god-exists/


Not speaking for Ambush but solely for myself...
I am open to a god. I encourage an interaction. I have no idea what it would take to convince me but if a god of any sort exists wouldn't he/she/it know  exactly what it would take to convince me?


----------



## WaltL1

j_seph said:


> Ambush, question for you:
> It seems you are, for lack of better words seeking proof. Some sort of an undeniable proof is what it would take to make you believe, accept. Where does your conscience come from? It shows up at different times in different people. When it shows up this is when we as Christians become accountable for our sins.
> 
> James 4:17
> Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
> 
> 1 John 3:6
> Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
> 
> Romans 2:15
> Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
> 
> John 3:8
> The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
> 
> Please do not take this wrong, I cannot convert you if that would be the term to use. As a Christian it is my place to speak what I know in my heart as the truth. On a lighter note, today is Wednesday September 28, 2016 *A.D.*
> I know you have heard it many times, I will be praying for you. Prayers that you find what you are seeking or proof that will show you beyond a doubt what you are not seeking is in fact true. Harden not your heart
> 
> http://notashamedofthegospel.com/apologetics/proof-that-god-exists/



This "harden not your heart" thing always puzzled me.
Things that are in fact true are in fact true regardless of a hardened heart.
What it really means is "just believe".
And why would one have to "just believe"?
Well because it is not in fact true.....


----------



## jmharris23

ambush80 said:


> I can justify spending some time discussing interesting and important issues.  That Billy stuff is just too much. I can't spend time on that kind of stuff online.  I'll do it in person (and often do), though.
> 
> I disagree that you can't convince anybody of your faith.  It can't be any harder than explaining why you like olives or asparagus.  You can tell people what it's like, how it feels, what it sounds like, but no one even tries.



That last phrase isnt true. I know lots of people who try to explain what faith feels like. Most often when they do they are ridiculed or hammered, and that's fair I guess, but it is certainly discouraging.


----------



## WaltL1

TripleXBullies said:


> This was like April of last year. The market was finally back enough for me to hopefully make some money on my house. Make back some of my mortgage payments that is. Not really come out on top. At one point, the foreclosure nextdoor sold for $30k. I had paid $118k for my house in 2005....
> 
> We wanted to be in Villa Rica close to her family and close to the church. We have 3 kids and her grandmother was going to live with us so we wanted 5 bedrooms. I really wanted to live in the middle of nowhere.
> 
> The house she had been renting from her sister was in a an area where I could shoot off of her back porch. It was way too small for all of us but I had considered moving in with her as we tried to sell my old house. Not living in it and getting the dogs out seemed like it would help it sell.
> 
> We looked at 10 houses or so. Nothing we really liked. Either way, I couldn't get a mortgage until I sold my old house. We saw house in Mirror Lake, country club community, that I didn't want to live in and the house didn't really appeal to me... but it was in our range and had 5 bedrooms... I wanted a shooting range in the backyard.... turns out there was a fairway in the backyard... We went to see it and we both liked it a lot. Surprisingly. And there was a for rent sign in the yard beside the for sale sign..
> 
> Within 7 days we moved in... Without selling my old house... Negotiated the rent from 1800 a month to A LOT LESS... the right sale price contingent on me selling my old house. So a temp rent with the contract on the sale. When we started negotiating I went in with the upper hand. I didn't have to move... so we went pretty low... trusting in anything really, but yes, in God that if he wanted us there, we'd be there. And it really surprised me.
> 
> Before we committed to that though, we had to be sure that her sister would be ok with only one more month of rent. We didn't want to leave them with the mortgage on that house. When she called her, her sister said that it would be great, they wanted to move back in anyway.
> 
> This house is just a few miles from the church we're going to. That has been really helpful for us being there.
> 
> We still understood the risk of the contract we were entering while still having to pay the mortgage on my other house... without any really interested buyers yet.. We both felt it was what we needed to do.
> 
> Somehow, we held all of our bills for 6 months with mortgage and rent... and also had to buy a new car a few months later.. and while I've always had a good job with a decent salary, I've always been the type to worry about money... We made it. Finally sold the house in January, closed on the new house.
> 
> 
> YES, I agree, that could have all been coincidence... I have no proof that it was anything other than the way things went. Obviously all of the math worked out money wise... Partially due to two 10% bonuses that I didn't expect to be that big based on the last 10 years of bonuses I've gotten.. But one of those was spent entirely on a ring. I also got a 10% raise which was over twice what I have gotten for the last many years. But to me the biggest thing was that I wasn't worried about any of it.
> 
> 
> I think I covered most of that story... I have allowed myself to see that something else happened there. I don't think it was just coincidence that all of that happened the way that it did.


First - glad everything worked out for you.
But im curious -
You arent living in the middle of nowhere.
You cant shoot off your back porch.
Your old car crapped out.
You struggled for 6 months.
Im assuming you didnt make a huge profit on your old house.

Do you chalk that up to God showing you what you REALLY wanted?


----------



## j_seph

WaltL1 said:


> This "harden not your heart" thing always puzzled me.
> Things that are in fact true are in fact true regardless of a hardened heart.
> What it really means is "just believe".
> And why would one have to "just believe"?
> Well because it is not in fact true.....



"Sin causes hearts to grow hard, especially  continual and unrepentant sin. Now we know that “if we confess our sins,  [Jesus] is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins” (1 John 1:9).  However, if we don’t confess our sins, they have a cumulative and  desensitizing effect on the conscience, making it difficult to even  distinguish right from wrong. And this sinful and hardened heart is  tantamount to the “seared conscience” Paul speaks of in 1Timothy 4:1–2.  Scripture makes it clear that if we relentlessly continue to engage in  sin, there will come a time when God will give us over to our “debased  mind” and let us have it our way. The apostle Paul writes about God’s  wrath of abandonment in his letter to the Romans where we see that  godless and wicked “men who suppress the truth” are eventually given  over to the sinful desires of their hardened hearts (Romans 1:18–24)."


----------



## TripleXBullies

You are right about all of those. I want a Porsche 911 and a new GMC Sierra. I don't want to have a job at all, much less a commute. I want 50 acres with my own gun range, hunting land, barn and pasture, fishing lake etc, a bass boat and a recreation boat. 

I like Villa Rica. I don't mind my commute. 

The house she was living in is 5 miles away. I can still shoot as much as I really want to.

My wife drives a much nicer car now.

I made it, I saved money AND I didn't worry about it every step of the way. 

I made what I needed to in have to put down on my new house. 


I have what I need and much more regardless of how you look at it. That was the point. I found all of those things to have happened in unlikely situations.  And my stress level was lower than it had been before which was the most remarkable to me. I have no way to show you objectively that it wasn't all due to El Nino or the FSM. 


I didn't mention that I took my daughter on a last minute "single dad" party (because I wasn't a bachelor, I was a single dad). We flew to Florida and went to a few beaches. She really wanted to ride on an airplane. I've been on 3 cruises in the last 15 months like 4 different countries. I just finished paying for a trip to Europe and Africa that we're taking in November. 





WaltL1 said:


> First - glad everything worked out for you.
> But im curious -
> You arent living in the middle of nowhere.
> You cant shoot off your back porch.
> Your old car crapped out.
> You struggled for 6 months.
> Im assuming you didnt make a huge profit on your old house.
> 
> Do you chalk that up to God showing you what you REALLY wanted?


----------



## WaltL1

j_seph said:


> "Sin causes hearts to grow hard, especially  continual and unrepentant sin. Now we know that “if we confess our sins,  [Jesus] is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins” (1 John 1:9).  However, if we don’t confess our sins, they have a cumulative and  desensitizing effect on the conscience, making it difficult to even  distinguish right from wrong. And this sinful and hardened heart is  tantamount to the “seared conscience” Paul speaks of in 1Timothy 4:1–2.  Scripture makes it clear that if we relentlessly continue to engage in  sin, there will come a time when God will give us over to our “debased  mind” and let us have it our way. The apostle Paul writes about God’s  wrath of abandonment in his letter to the Romans where we see that  godless and wicked “men who suppress the truth” are eventually given  over to the sinful desires of their hardened hearts (Romans 1:18–24)."


Thanks but i didnt ask how a heart became hardened.
I said if something is in fact true it is in fact true regardless of a hardened heart.


----------



## WaltL1

TripleXBullies said:


> You are right about all of those. I want a Porsche 911 and a new GMC Sierra. I don't want to have a job at all, much less a commute. I want 50 acres with my own gun range, hunting land, barn and pasture, fishing lake etc, a bass boat and a recreation boat.
> 
> I like Villa Rica. I don't mind my commute.
> 
> The house she was living in is 5 miles away. I can still shoot as much as I really want to.
> 
> My wife drives a much nicer car now.
> 
> I made it, I saved money AND I didn't worry about it every step of the way.
> 
> I made what I needed to in have to put down on my new house.
> 
> 
> I have what I need and much more regardless of how you look at it. That was the point. I found all of those things to have happened in unlikely situations.  And my stress level was lower than it had been before which was the most remarkable to me. I have no way to show you objectively that it wasn't all due to El Nino or the FSM.
> 
> 
> I didn't mention that I took my daughter on a last minute "single dad" party (because I wasn't a bachelor, I was a single dad). We flew to Florida and went to a few beaches. She really wanted to ride on an airplane. I've been on 3 cruises in the last 15 months like 4 different countries. I just finished paying for a trip to Europe and Africa that we're taking in November.



My question was much more innocent than i think you took it
I just meant what you ended up with is very different from what you started out wanting.
And if Im reading it right you are giving God credit for helping you out.
So for me, the obvious question is if God is doing favors why not just give you what you really wanted?


----------



## j_seph

WaltL1 said:


> My question was much more innocent than i think you took it
> I just meant what you ended up with is very different from what you started out wanting.
> And if Im reading it right you are giving God credit for helping you out.
> So for me, the obvious question is if God is doing favors why not just give you what you really wanted?


What he wanted and what was needed 2 different things. Had I gotten what I wanted a year and a half ago instead of what I needed a year ago my life would not be what it is today spiritually, emotionally, nor physically.
Had I gotten what I wanted and asked for 13 years ago, I would not have been a widower 3 years ago. I would be a much different person today had I got what I wanted 13 years ago. I am sure you have heard God has a plan. As my late wife was rolled away for her first surgery the words I can remember her saying more so than anything she ever said to me was God has a plan, we may not like it but he does have a plan.


----------



## jmharris23

WaltL1 said:


> My question was much more innocent than i think you took it
> I just meant what you ended up with is very different from what you started out wanting.
> And if Im reading it right you are giving God credit for helping you out.
> So for me, the obvious question is if God is doing favors why not just give you what you really wanted?



Haven't you ever listened to the great theologian Garth Brooks


Sometimes we thank God for unanswered prayers


----------



## WaltL1

j_seph said:


> What he wanted and what was needed 2 different things. Had I gotten what I wanted a year and a half ago instead of what I needed a year ago my life would not be what it is today spiritually, emotionally, nor physically.
> Had I gotten what I wanted and asked for 13 years ago, I would not have been a widower 3 years ago. I would be a much different person today had I got what I wanted 13 years ago. I am sure you have heard God has a plan. As my late wife was rolled away for her first surgery the words I can remember her saying more so than anything she ever said to me was God has a plan, we may not like it but he does have a plan.


Uhhhh he ended up on a golf course in a 5 bedroom home with a new car....
Lets not make it sound like God gave him "less" because he "didnt need it".
And my condolences to you concerning your wife. Sounds like she was very brave and Im sure her faith was a big part of that.


----------



## WaltL1

jmharris23 said:


> Haven't you ever listened to the great theologian Garth Brooks
> 
> 
> Sometimes we thank God for unanswered prayers


Well Ive never listened to Garth Brooks on purpose anyway. 
Not a country fan. Figures right?
Now Jim Morrison there was a theologian.


----------



## ambush80

WaltL1 said:


> Well Ive never listened to Garth Brooks on purpose anyway.
> Not a country fan. Figures right?
> Now Jim Morrison there was a theologian.



"The Negroes in the forest, brightly feathered, and they are saying 'Forget the night. Live with us in forests of Azure.'  Out here beyond the Perimeter there are no stars.  Out here we is stoned, immaculate"



That guy cracks me up.


----------



## ambush80

Ultimately, it seems like where you (infinitive) required a certain kind of proof, now you don't.  I guess that's the essence of religious "faith".

What if I told you I could raise the dead?  Rebuke a tornado?  Drive out a demon from a possessed Bolivian child?  What kind of evidence would you need to believe me?


----------



## JB0704

ambush80 said:


> What if I told you I could raise the dead?  Rebuke a tornado?  Drive out a demon from a possessed Bolivian child?  What kind of evidence would you need to believe me?



A book by multiple authors who were first hand witness, or record such first hand testimony, additionally full of witnesses which never go on the historical record saying "nuh-uh," and 2000 years of affirmation.


----------



## ambush80

jmharris23 said:


> Haven't you ever listened to the great theologian Garth Brooks
> 
> 
> Sometimes we thank God for unanswered prayers



Yesterday as I was right in the thick of questioning XXX, my computer froze and a storm started shaking the trees so bad that my dog jumped up on the couch with me (a bad, bad no no).  Was that a sign?  Were there unknown forces at work?  I say maybe.  I also say that storms hit my location sometimes and my internet occasionally goes out.

How do you know what a "sign' is?  I contend that you just decide that it's a sign and fill in the blanks.  

I was asking the kid who works with me if he was superstitious and believed in signs.  He said "kinda".  I pointed at the girl with the royal blue pants and asked "What is that a sign of?  What does it mean?"  He quickly understood the point I was trying to make.

If a Quetchuan shaman said that he saw a hawk and it meant your death would you believe that he could read signs?  What if he said that it meant you were going to travel?  What if he said that it meant that you have great strength?  What if he said that it meant that you should sell your house?  Would you believe him?


----------



## Artfuldodger

ambush80 said:


> If a Quetchuan shaman said that he saw a hawk and it meant your death would you believe that he could read signs?  What if he said that it meant you were going to travel?  What if he said that it meant that you have great strength?  What if he said that it meant that you should sell your house?  Would you believe him?



Possibly, will I be partaking of yage?


----------



## ambush80

Artfuldodger said:


> Possibly, will I be partaking of yage?



What if he told you it's not for white men?

All this kind of thinking is the same shape as the hole in your wall, XXX.


----------



## WaltL1

ambush80 said:


> "The Negroes in the forest, brightly feathered, and they are saying 'Forget the night. Live with us in forests of Azure.'  Out here beyond the Perimeter there are no stars.  Out here we is stoned, immaculate"
> 
> 
> 
> That guy cracks me up.



Jim was definitely "out there" 
He had some interesting quotes-
"This is the weirdest life Ive ever known"
Or
"There are things known and things unknown and inbetween are the doors".


----------



## ambush80

WaltL1 said:


> Jim was definitely "out there"
> He had some interesting quotes-
> "This is the weirdest life Ive ever known"
> Or
> "There are things known and things unknown and inbetween are the doors".



"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us, now, for wasting the dawn"


----------



## TripleXBullies

WaltL1 said:


> My question was much more innocent than i think you took it
> I just meant what you ended up with is very different from what you started out wanting.
> And if Im reading it right you are giving God credit for helping you out.
> So for me, the obvious question is if God is doing favors why not just give you what you really wanted?



I knew it was innocent enough. He gave me what I needed and much more. My wife doesn't make a ton of money but that has been taken care of.


----------



## TripleXBullies

WaltL1 said:


> Uhhhh he ended up on a golf course in a 5 bedroom home with a new car....
> Lets not make it sound like God gave him "less" because he "didnt need it".




Right. I've got a plenty....


----------



## TripleXBullies

ambush80 said:


> If a Quetchuan shaman said that he saw a hawk and it meant your death would you believe that he could read signs?  What if he said that it meant you were going to travel?  What if he said that it meant that you have great strength?  What if he said that it meant that you should sell your house?  Would you believe him?



Introduce me to him and I'll answer that question for you. I actually speak some Quetchua.


----------



## TripleXBullies

ambush80 said:


> What if he told you it's not for white men?
> 
> All this kind of thinking is the same shape as the hole in your wall, XXX.



It may be the same shape but it's not hitting the same hole in the wall. I see the connection you're making, believe me I do.

Do you ever make gut decisions?

For me, sometimes it's which back roads to take to work on my 35 mile commute. Do I go straight or take a left this morning... I base it on some things I see going on around me.. and sometimes I just go with what my gut tells me.


----------



## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> Introduce me to him and I'll answer that question for you. I actually speak some Quetchua.



Really?  That's cool.  So you might consider that the shaman has some kind of magic powers?


----------



## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> It may be the same shape but it's not hitting the same hole in the wall. I see the connection you're making, believe me I do.
> 
> Do you ever make gut decisions?
> 
> For me, sometimes it's which back roads to take to work on my 35 mile commute. Do I go straight or take a left this morning... I base it on some things I see going on around me.. and sometimes I just go with what my gut tells me.



Gut decisions are usually based on some bit of information even though it might be subconscious.  

There's an app that tells you in real time where obstructions to traffic are.  I like to make the most of what modern technology has to offer in all things.


----------



## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> It may be the same shape but it's not hitting the same hole in the wall. I see the connection you're making, believe me I do.
> 
> Do you ever make gut decisions?
> 
> For me, sometimes it's which back roads to take to work on my 35 mile commute. Do I go straight or take a left this morning... I base it on some things I see going on around me.. and sometimes I just go with what my gut tells me.



So if you see the connection, what criteria do you use to distinguish between one faith claim and another?


----------



## ambush80

JB0704 said:


> A book by multiple authors who were first hand witness, or record such first hand testimony, additionally full of witnesses which never go on the historical record saying "nuh-uh," and 2000 years of affirmation.



What do you make of some of the stuff that Bullet posts that contradicts all that?


----------



## TripleXBullies

ambush80 said:


> Really?  That's cool.  So you might consider that the shaman has some kind of magic powers?



I haven't experienced it. I wouldn't let myself say NO they don't. I don't know.


----------



## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> I haven't experienced it. I wouldn't let myself say NO they don't. I don't know.



Were you always like that, open to the possibility of shamanic magic,  or is the hole in the wall getting bigger?


----------



## TripleXBullies

ambush80 said:


> Gut decisions are usually based on some bit of information even though it might be subconscious.
> 
> There's an app that tells you in real time where obstructions to traffic are.  I like to make the most of what modern technology has to offer in all things.



I've used my GPS with traffic several times. That's how I found several other routes. It updates as I'm going for the fastest route... but sometimes it feels like it's wrong.

I agree, even when we use our gut or instinct we're still using some more real factors. That doesn't discount the fact that we have a feeling that we should do what our gut tells  us. It's the feeling that I'm referring to. 

I'd say I frequently have a little more than the gut feeling that I get to throw my senko up under that tree or by that point when it comes to feeling that I'm doing what God wants me to. When I told my real estate agent that my limit for rent to move in to my new house last year was $1000 and they were asking $1800... And they said they'd do $1000 for the first 3 months, $1200 for the next 3 months and then $1400 for the next 6 months of the 1 year lease... I took that as much more than a gut feeling...


----------



## JB0704

3X, off topic, I am doing one of my "big cooks" next week for the kids' school over in Powder Springs, not too far from you........I am smoking 440 boston butts over 3 days.  If you get bored n wanna swing by to see that type of operation (since I know you are a fellow pitmaster), it'd be fun to hang out.  

Seriously, I will be cooking 2 tons of meat.    I plan to do a "live from the big cook" in the cafe forum.


----------



## JB0704

Same goes for any of yall, btw.......I just know most of you fellas aint real close by.


----------



## TripleXBullies

ambush80 said:


> Were you always like that, open to the possibility of shamanic magic,  or is the hole in the wall getting bigger?



I was more open to that when I was atheist. It's a God shaped hole in the wall. He made it for himself. Try not to get caught up in that terminology.....

Remember, I'm considering it a miracle that it's there at all. I had a wall keeping that bc out. I didn't construct the wall consciously but it kept all of that stuff out. I was amazed that I felt at home that morning at church. I was amazed that I wasn't rolling my eyes at every word that was said. I was amazed that I didn't want to walk out.


----------



## ambush80

JB0704 said:


> 3X, off topic, I am doing one of my "big cooks" next week for the kids' school over in Powder Springs, not too far from you........I am smoking 440 boston butts over 3 days.  If you get bored n wanna swing by to see that type of operation (since I know you are a fellow pitmaster), it'd be fun to hang out.
> 
> Seriously, I will be cooking 2 tons of meat.    I plan to do a "live from the big cook" in the cafe forum.





JB0704 said:


> Same goes for any of yall, btw.......I just know most of you fellas aint real close by.



What day?  That sure would be fun to see.


----------



## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> I was more open to that when I was atheist. It's a God shaped hole in the wall. He made it for himself. Try not to get caught up in that terminology.....
> 
> Remember, I'm considering it a miracle that it's there at all. I had a wall keeping that bc out. I didn't construct the wall consciously but it kept all of that stuff out. I was amazed that I felt at home that morning at church. I was amazed that I wasn't rolling my eyes at every word that was said. I was amazed that I didn't want to walk out.



So now you are open to the possibility of magic?  By Wiccans or just Quetchuan shaman?  How about Buddhist magics?  



I have been inspired by many religious events. As a matter of fact,  it's happened so many times that I couldn't imagine believing that one ritual had more validity than another.  Would you be interested in seeing if you have a revelation in a mosque or a Bahai temple?


----------



## TripleXBullies

ambush80 said:


> So now you are open to the possibility of magic?  By Wiccans or just Quetchuan shaman?  How about Buddhist magics?
> 
> 
> 
> I have been inspired by many religious events. As a matter of fact,  it's happened so many times that I couldn't imagine believing that one ritual had more validity than another.  Would you be interested in seeing if you have a revelation in a mosque or a Bahai temple?



I said I was probably more open to other magic as an atheist than I am now. 

I'm not itching to but I probably would given the right opportunity.

I was given a reason to step foot back in to a christian church, so I did. Eventually I felt a desire to go back. That was a process. I didn't fall on my knees that first time.


----------



## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> I said I was probably more open to other magic as an atheist than I am now.
> 
> I'm not itching to but I probably would given the right opportunity.
> 
> I was given a reason to step foot back in to a christian church, so I did. Eventually I felt a desire to go back. That was a process. I didn't fall on my knees that first time.




So now you don't think the shaman has any real magic?   That's interesting that as an atheist you were open to the possibility of magic.  I think there's a correlation there with regards to why you would be open to conversion.  Just a hunch.

Imagine if trying another avenue into the supernatural were even half as enriching as the one you initially chose.  Maybe you're discovering a universal truth about human experience not limited to one particular religion.  Isn't that worth investigating?


----------



## JB0704

ambush80 said:


> What day?  That sure would be fun to see.



I will be cooking Next Thursday - noon Saturday.  Come by either Thursday or Friday evening, or Saturday morning.  It is pretty crazy scene.  I can't buy you a beer while there (it's a school), but I'll get the pitcher of Yeungling when we go fishing.


----------



## JB0704

ambush80 said:


> What do you make of some of the stuff that Bullet posts that contradicts all that?



I think some of it is pretty interesting.  I also know how bias works.  I am not discounting Bullet's links, I am just saying often they read like somebody found what they are looking for.


----------



## 660griz

TripleXBullies said:


> I said I was probably more open to other magic as an atheist than I am now.



Hmmmm.
I really don't understand how you can be open to magic as an atheist.


----------



## ambush80

JB0704 said:


> I will be cooking Next Thursday - noon Saturday.  Come by either Thursday or Friday evening, or Saturday morning.  It is pretty crazy scene.  I can't buy you a beer while there (it's a school), but I'll get the pitcher of Yeungling when we go fishing.



We better go soon.  It's getting too cold to go without waders (I guess not for Walt.  Tough Son of a Gun).



JB0704 said:


> I think some of it is pretty interesting.  I also know how bias works.  I am not discounting Bullet's links, I am just saying often they read like somebody found what they are looking for.



When presented with "Proof of Christs' resurrection" and "Arguments against the veracity of Christs' resurrection", how do you decide which things to believe?

Firstly, do you believe there is enough evidence in first hand accounts to verify Christs' resurrection?  Would you believe the resurrection claim of _anyone else_ with the same amount of evidence or just Jesus? Why or why not?


----------



## ambush80

660griz said:


> Hmmmm.
> I really don't understand how you can be open to magic as an atheist.



Atheists simply don't believe in God.  

It doesn't say anything else about them.  They can be moral or amoral.  They can still believe in Voodoo, lucky rabbits feet, Crystal healing, 911 conspiracies, UFOs and Bigfoot.

Typically atheists are skeptics and typically they hold rationality in high regard but not always.  Some young people will say that they're atheists because they think it's rebellious and cool, but would say that they believe in a "Higher Power".


----------



## JB0704

ambush80 said:


> We better go soon.  It's getting too cold to go without waders (I guess not for Walt.  Tough Son of a Gun).



I have some waders, my problem is time.  I can go on a Sunday morning, but I think 3X is going to church these days........mebbe we can talk him into doing "church" on the river 




ambush80 said:


> Firstly, do you believe there is enough evidence in first hand accounts to verify Christs' resurrection?  Would you believe the resurrection claim of _anyone else_ with the same amount of evidence or just Jesus? Why or why not?



Let me ponder this a bit.......to answer the question about anyone else, probably not.  Being able to answer it takes some thought........


----------



## JB0704

To believe the resurrection you have to accept the premise of the story (God exists and created mankind).  If you think that is false, or invented, then the resurrection makes no sense.  That being said.......I believe in God, as described by the Bible, and as such I believe he created life, and such a God could restore life, making a resurrection possible.  If you don't think God exists, then you sure as heck can't believe Jesus resurrected.

The validity of the resurrection story comes from the witnesses as well as the lack of contemporary claims to the contrary.  For instance, none of the folks referenced in the NT are on any historical record claiming the writers were liars.  More than that, the act itself reinforces the themes of the entire book, beginning with Genesis.  The people who claimed to be part of this were not the religious establishment of the day, yet, their claims reinforced the doctrines of those who sought to persecute them.........why wouldn't they just invent a totally new religion instead of what became a spinoff of Judaism?

A modern version of this would be the Mormons.  However, there is only one witness to the original founding of that church.  They build their faith on top of Christianity and Judaism, but do so using a single witness (one man reading the sacred texts).


----------



## ambush80

JB0704 said:


> I have some waders, my problem is time.  I can go on a Sunday morning, but I think 3X is going to church these days........mebbe we can talk him into doing "church" on the river



Last time I went I had several inadvertent, full immersion "baptisms".  I believe I screamed out His name several times. 




JB0704 said:


> Let me ponder this a bit.......to answer the question about anyone else, probably not.  Being able to answer it takes some thought........



I'm trying to establish trust with my daughter.  When I ask her to do something that she doesn't want to, I remind her of how my suggestions almost always bear positive results and even when they don't, at least they were grounded in good reasons that she agrees with in the end.  I point out that I've never lied to her about the benefits or costs of her actions.  That's why she listens when I say "Taste it first" or "If you don't sleep you'll be tired and cranky in the morning".  She sees that what I tell her is the truth based on empirical evidence.

Would you say that the bigger proof isn't the recorded evidence but is more akin to "My Dad has never lied to me.  I believe him now".  To which I would ask: What's the method of communication with God and how do you know that you're talking to Him and that He is answering?


----------



## ambush80

JB0704 said:


> To believe the resurrection you have to accept the premise of the story (God exists and created mankind).  If you think that is false, or invented, then the resurrection makes no sense.  That being said.......I believe in God, as described by the Bible, and as such I believe he created life, and such a God could restore life, making a resurrection possible.  If you don't think God exists, then you sure as heck can't believe Jesus resurrected.
> 
> The validity of the resurrection story comes from the witnesses as well as the lack of contemporary claims to the contrary.  For instance, none of the folks referenced in the NT are on any historical record claiming the writers were liars.  More than that, the act itself reinforces the themes of the entire book, beginning with Genesis.  The people who claimed to be part of this were not the religious establishment of the day, yet, their claims reinforced the doctrines of those who sought to persecute them.........why wouldn't they just invent a totally new religion instead of what became a spinoff of Judaism?
> 
> A modern version of this would be the Mormons.  However, there is only one witness to the original founding of that church.  They build their faith on top of Christianity and Judaism, but do so using a single witness (one man reading the sacred texts).



"More than that, the act itself reinforces the themes of the entire book, beginning with Genesis."

How would you defend against claims that confirmed prophecy is actually history re-written to fit the narrative?  This is where Bullet would rev up his cut and paste machine.  Let's just say that contrary argument exists.  Have you considered any of it?  Have you ever tried to prove the Biblical accounts false?  I mean really, really tried?

Why don't you believe in Mohammad's ascension?  Do you think there's less or worse evidence for it than Christs'?


----------



## bullethead

JB0704 said:


> I will be cooking Next Thursday - noon Saturday.  Come by either Thursday or Friday evening, or Saturday morning.  It is pretty crazy scene.  I can't buy you a beer while there (it's a school), but I'll get the pitcher of Yeungling when we go fishing.


Yuengling!?!?+?!?
The original brewery is 14 miles from my house......i didnt know you guys were Yuengy fans.


----------



## ambush80

bullethead said:


> Yuengling!?!?+?!?
> The original brewery is 14 miles from my house......i didnt know you guys were Yuengy fans.



Dude, that stuff is everywhere down here.  I don't think it overtook PBR for popularity. Maybe if it came in cooler looking tallboys....


----------



## TripleXBullies

660griz said:


> Hmmmm.
> I really don't understand how you can be open to magic as an atheist.



More open to possibilities.


----------



## JB0704

bullethead said:


> Yuengling!?!?+?!?
> The original brewery is 14 miles from my house......i didnt know you guys were Yuengy fans.



Oh yes, it is the best domestic beer I have come across.  Big fan.  Ambush n I split a pitcher last time we fished together.


----------



## j_seph

Ctrl+C-----------------Ctrl+V eqials
http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/historical-evidence-for-the-resurrection


----------



## 660griz

ambush80 said:


> Atheists simply don't believe in God.
> 
> It doesn't say anything else about them.  They can be moral or amoral.  They can still believe in Voodoo, lucky rabbits feet, Crystal healing, 911 conspiracies, UFOs and Bigfoot.
> 
> Typically atheists are skeptics and typically they hold rationality in high regard but not always.  Some young people will say that they're atheists because they think it's rebellious and cool, but would say that they believe in a "Higher Power".



The only common thread that ties all atheists together is a lack of belief in gods and supernatural beings. I lump magic, voodoo, and all supernatural stuff in the same bucket. 
I can see where if you believe in some supernatural, the others are not that great a leap away.


----------



## 660griz

TripleXBullies said:


> More open to possibilities.



Perhaps I misunderstood. I am open to lots of stuff with proof. I have a lack of belief in all supernatural stuff. 
There, I think we have that cleared up. I just jumped the gun a bit.


----------



## JB0704

ambush80 said:


> Would you say that the bigger proof isn't the recorded evidence but is more akin to "My Dad has never lied to me.  I believe him now".  To which I would ask: What's the method of communication with God and how do you know that you're talking to Him and that He is answering?



Im not sure I make the same connection.  My belief in God is not relevant to any direct insight or visions or communication.  It is relevant to viewing existence, and of course the Bible, and connecting dots.

So, I do pray, and I do not hear anything audible in return.  Often I find peace or comfort in one direction or another, usually when I settle on a course of action that I "know" is right.  Usually, these "instincts" are correct.  I'll give you a decent example:

When I wuz a young man in the IT industry there was a bit of a bubble, the Y2K crisis had driven demand for systems upgrades through the roof, and the dot com bubble was at it's height.  Lots and lots of $$ as being thrown around at the time.  I was offered some extremely generous jobs, and, being in my very early 20's, I saw many of my co-workers chase after the $$.  Upon reflection and prayer, I saw fit to remain in a job where I was making 30-50% less than the market was paying at the time.  I just couldn't find peace with leaving.

Fast forward a year or two, the dot com bubble burst, and all my friends were unemployed and could not find work making near what I was still making.......they had over spent on housing, automobiles, etc., and were generally ruined financially.  I am still working for the same company today, 15 years later, and, was able to make a total career change to accounting and keep the $$, bennies, pto, etc.

I attribute that to prayer.  I am not sure why else I would have turned down some of those offers I received at 21 or 22 yrs old.  Nobody saw the financial problems of that industry coming, and folks were "millionaires" on paper in their mid-20's.  I can't explain why I would have possibly wanted to stay put in what was at the time considered one of the worst places to be.


----------



## JB0704

ambush80 said:


> How would you defend against claims that confirmed prophecy is actually history re-written to fit the narrative?  This is where Bullet would rev up his cut and paste machine.  Let's just say that contrary argument exists.  Have you considered any of it?



Sure.  I often read just about anything or any link yall post.  I am always open to contrary opinion.



ambush80 said:


> Have you ever tried to prove the Biblical accounts false?  I mean really, really tried?



No.  I have examined what I read and understand relevant to other perspectives.  Which has lead to some pretty interesting places, such as my views on Job (another topic all together).




ambush80 said:


> Why don't you believe in Mohammad's ascension?  Do you think there's less or worse evidence for it than Christs'?



At this stage in my understanding, no, I do not believe there is as much evidence.  Additionally, the nature of the information given does not line up with the rest of what I believe to be true about God.  That was a key part of my original point on believing the resurrection.


----------



## bullethead

JB0704 said:


> Oh yes, it is the best domestic beer I have come across.  Big fan.  Ambush n I split a pitcher last time we fished together.


If you make it Schuylkill Co on your trip to Pa the heck with Cabelas.... Ill take you to the original Yuengling brewery for a tour....then again...Cabelas is only about 20 miles from Pottsville too!!!!


----------



## JB0704

bullethead said:


> If you make it Schuylkill Co on your trip to Pa the heck with Cabelas.... Ill take you to the original Yuengling brewery for a tour....then again...Cabelas is only about 20 miles from Pottsville too!!!!



HEck yea!!!   That would be a blast!


----------



## TripleXBullies

I'm good for a Sunday morning trout trip.  Yall tell me when


----------



## TripleXBullies

This morning


----------



## JB0704

Very nice!


----------



## TripleXBullies

Which Sunday do y'all want to hit those trout??


----------



## JB0704

I am out for this weekend.  I could possibly do either of the the following two Sundays.  The last one in October is better due to Rifle season opening the weekend prior.  However, I am more than happy to skip a deer hunt for a chance to catch some trouts with you guys.


----------



## TripleXBullies

We may have to wait until next month. I'd prefer to do it on a weekend that we don't have the kids. I'll be out of town the first week in November as well....


----------



## JB0704

That's cool.  Ambush don't wanna fish in the cold, but Im good with it.  Send a PM with the weekend that works for you, and we can make it happen.


----------



## TripleXBullies

SFD asked for an update. Still in pretty much the same place. The trip to Africa was a great experience. I learned a lot about myself. I did some more public "preaching" on Gideon. Which I think kind of applies to what I mentioned in the thread the other day about the third A trying too hard in here.  I never thought I'd do that. I was doing it for pastors too. I speak publicly at work every once in a while but not enough to have ever spent time to really learn how to prep. I took a lot of feedback from my pastor on prepping. Then I actually applied that to interview prep this year. Wow what a difference. 



When I think about how I explained things here, I feel like I should go back over some things. A lot of the guys in here get hung up on things. I know I did... and a lot of those things still hang me up. I visualize this wall that God broke a hole for himself in. He didn't destroy the wall, he just made a hole. I discussed that here too. The wall catches all kinds of smelly stuff. It still does. Some of the details he left on the other side of the wall. I am ok with that for now. I think it's him that's given me some peace with that too. Those hang ups completely kept it all out before. The peace says don't worry about that stuff for  now, we'll get there some day. 

Later on today when I have a little more time I'll make a list of some of those things. I am decent friends with my pastor and I actually plan on asking him specifically about a couple of these things. 

I visualize this a little better with a different analogy. If I'm fishing and get a line hung, especially in a tournament, sometimes I put that rod down and pick something else up if I'm in a juicy spot. I'll let some slack out of the hung rod and just lay it on the deck. If I catch something on the new rod I really don't care about the the hung rod. I'll come back and worry about when I get a second or after I feel like the spot is dry. Sometimes you have to deal with it to move on, but if the spot is good, get what's good out of it and then go back to the hung rod. Sometimes it's not even hung any more by then and comes right up. I didn't want to miss the possibilities in that spot though.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

TripleXBullies said:


> SFD asked for an update. Still in pretty much the same place. The trip to Africa was a great experience. I learned a lot about myself. I did some more public "preaching" on Gideon. Which I think kind of applies to what I mentioned in the thread the other day about the third A trying too hard in here.  I never thought I'd do that. I was doing it for pastors too. I speak publicly at work every once in a while but not enough to have ever spent time to really learn how to prep. I took a lot of feedback from my pastor on prepping. Then I actually applied that to interview prep this year. Wow what a difference.
> 
> 
> 
> When I think about how I explained things here, I feel like I should go back over some things. A lot of the guys in here get hung up on things. I know I did... and a lot of those things still hang me up. I visualize this wall that God broke a hole for himself in. He didn't destroy the wall, he just made a hole. I discussed that here too. The wall catches all kinds of smelly stuff. It still does. Some of the details he left on the other side of the wall. I am ok with that for now. I think it's him that's given me some peace with that too. Those hang ups completely kept it all out before. The peace says don't worry about that stuff for  now, we'll get there some day.
> 
> Later on today when I have a little more time I'll make a list of some of those things. I am decent friends with my pastor and I actually plan on asking him specifically about a couple of these things.
> 
> I visualize this a little better with a different analogy. If I'm fishing and get a line hung, especially in a tournament, sometimes I put that rod down and pick something else up if I'm in a juicy spot. I'll let some slack out of the hung rod and just lay it on the deck. If I catch something on the new rod I really don't care about the the hung rod. I'll come back and worry about when I get a second or after I feel like the spot is dry. Sometimes you have to deal with it to move on, but if the spot is good, get what's good out of it and then go back to the hung rod. Sometimes it's not even hung any more by then and comes right up. I didn't want to miss the possibilities in that spot though.



Love your hole in the wall analogy.  Goes to show that you may not can get a camel through the eye of a needle, buy you can get an awfully big God through it.  While reading the thread for the first time yesterday, it struck me that while some do, you never seemed to completely shut the door on the supernatural: there was always 'a chance'.   I think that's important.  Your wall always had a peep hole.


----------



## TripleXBullies

That's true. It was always possible. I think any A that's being honest with themselves has to leave that open, however unlikely or impossible to KNOW they mat think it is or they are as blind as they say Christians or whoever else are.


----------



## TripleXBullies

This is what I am going to ask my pastor about:

When Jesus died he left the holy spirit right? Who is here with us, guiding us and everything. I'd say he's frequently not easy to  understand or understand if it's him or not since it's pretty much all internal. I have said it, probably ANYONE has said it - God, just boom to me from a cloud, talk from a donkey or a burning bush. The bible says we don't need that any more because we have the holy spirit. 

Is this is a grass is always greener perspective that we wish that God would just do that for us? Man those goat herders 2000+ years ago had it so much easier. You can't deny a talking donkey! So my question for him would be, can you point me to where I can get a better feeling for how it used to be, and how we  have it better because we have the holy spirit? If it was the other way around, what were they wanting and praying for that I know have at my finger tips?


----------



## TripleXBullies

I'll put at least some in the terms we frequently see them, here or maybe elsewhere. One thing I'll also say is that some of these are maybe more conceptual than very specifically scriptural. I think for most of the first two As here and myself a scripture reference that refutes or explains these likely won't do the trick...

There are plenty of explanations and responses to these. In my current experience, I am ok with putting these doubts, I guess you'd call them, aside and coming back to them later. I don't think that trying to overcome my doubts by covering them up with, "I believe 100% everything all the time," is helpful for anyone much less myself. What I can do is trust that it's ok for now and that I'll have the answers that pass my test at some point.

I'm not saying we need 10 pages of conversation for each either.


Basically the meme from Ambush - God created the structure for this system of man being sinful and requiring a sacrifice for forgiveness. 

God left his throne as Jesus to be the sacrifice - He knew he'd BRB... Was leaving the throne much of a sacrifice?


----------



## SemperFiDawg

TripleXBullies said:


> This is what I am going to ask my pastor about:
> 
> When Jesus died he left the holy spirit right? Who is here with us, guiding us and everything. I'd say he's frequently not easy to  understand or understand if it's him or not since it's pretty much all internal. I have said it, probably ANYONE has said it - God, just boom to me from a cloud, talk from a donkey or a burning bush. The bible says we don't need that any more because we have the holy spirit.
> 
> Is this is a grass is always greener perspective that we wish that God would just do that for us? Man those goat herders 2000+ years ago had it so much easier. You can't deny a talking donkey! So my question for him would be, can you point me to where I can get a better feeling for how it used to be, and how we  have it better because we have the holy spirit? If it was the other way around, what were they wanting and praying for that I know have at my finger tips?



Maybe it used to be like when you first started dating your wife.  You couldn't see her all the time, every day but when you did those times were precious, but now you see her everyday and you are always together.  It's better, but no less precious and allows for a much deeper relationship to grow.  Like the HS my wife often speaks to me and I have a hard time understanding her and her reasoning.   It gets easier over time just like any relationship, but I will never completely understand her.  Same with HS.  I don't fret about it too much.  God has a way of getting his point across to me no matter how dumb I can be.


----------



## TripleXBullies

I am kind of making that connection but maybe not like you're intending. If conversations with your wife can become run of the mill because you've always got it at your fingertips is like we've always had the HS at our fingertips then maybe. So I'd like to understand what NOT having the HS means so that maybe I can appreciate it more.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

TripleXBullies said:


> I am kind of making that connection but maybe not like you're intending. If conversations with your wife can become run of the mill because you've always got it at your fingertips is like we've always had the HS at our fingertips then maybe. So I'd like to understand what NOT having the HS means so that maybe I can appreciate it more.



For me, there was a time I didn't have the HS and I remember what it was like daily, because it represents the era of my life where I made the worst mistakes and did the most harm to myself and others.  I can relate very well with David whe he said 'My sin is always in front of my face.'  Before there was no limit to what I would say or do.  Literally none.  I was accountable to no one but myself.  For me, THAT was NOT a good thing.  After, that all changed overnight.  In no way was I nor will ever be perfect, but the perspective changed.....the focus.  I was, and am now accountable to Christ for my actions and Brother do I hear about them every day from the HS and most of the time several times through the day.  Some guys could probably come in and explain how the Law served at least in part as the HS, or explain that for much of the OT God actually lived among the people in the tabernacle and temple so they didn't need the HS, blah, blah, blah.  The thread would probably go on for 20 pages of debate over that crap and then go off track for another 10.  I ain't getting the feeling that's what your after and think it's probably a good idea to do just what you plan...ask your pastor.  It seems he's a friend and someone you trust.  He knows you personally and is gonna be able to relate to you in a way none of us can.  


Oh and one more thing.  Keep that wall up and sturdy, especially when visiting these forums: not to catch the a/a 
stuff, but the nutty "religious"  stuff that permeates upstairs.  The hardest thing for me to remember is also the simplest:  it's not a belief, a religion, or even a faith, it's a relationship.


----------



## TripleXBullies

I've felt for the longest time that your last sentence is a gimmick to bring in people who have a bad taste in their mouth from past experience. An attempt to try to re-label things. It's all of those and the same thing it's always been...... It's absolutely a religion, belief system and faith that's about having a relationship... You can call it and label it whatever you want...


----------



## TripleXBullies

I don't think that through any of the almost 10 years of agnosticism and atheism I was ever without the HS. I don't think anyone can be without it in the same sense that BC was without it. I want to be able to make that comparison. I agree that many people could weigh in. I'm open to reading it.

There was always a limit to what I'd do or say. I still had values during that time. I still have a lot of the same ones. 




SemperFiDawg said:


> For me, there was a time I didn't have the HS and I remember what it was like daily, because it represents the era of my life where I made the worst mistakes and did the most harm to myself and others.  I can relate very well with David whe he said 'My sin is always in front of my face.'  Before there was no limit to what I would say or do.  Literally none.  I was accountable to no one but myself.  For me, THAT was NOT a good thing.  After, that all changed overnight.  In no way was I nor will ever be perfect, but the perspective changed.....the focus.  I was, and am now accountable to Christ for my actions and Brother do I hear about them every day from the HS and most of the time several times through the day.  Some guys could probably come in and explain how the Law served at least in part as the HS, or explain that for much of the OT God actually lived among the people in the tabernacle and temple so they didn't need the HS, blah, blah, blah.  The thread would probably go on for 20 pages of debate over that crap and then go off track for another 10.  I ain't getting the feeling that's what your after and think it's probably a good idea to do just what you plan...ask your pastor.  It seems he's a friend and someone you trust.  He knows you personally and is gonna be able to relate to you in a way none of us can.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

TripleXBullies said:


> I've felt for the longest time that your last sentence is a gimmick to bring in people who have a bad taste in their mouth from past experience. An attempt to try to re-label things. It's all of those and the same thing it's always been...... It's absolutely a religion, belief system and faith that's about having a relationship... You can call it and label it whatever you want...



A gimmick?  I'm speaking about my history, my experience and my view of my relationship with Christ.  Just trying to relate that.  That's all.  Sorry if it tripped a " trigger" with you.


----------



## TripleXBullies

Nah. I'm just saying.  Saying it's not a religion is as much "religious stuff" as most. Religion, relationship, faith... whatever you want to call it.


----------



## centerpin fan

TripleXBullies said:


> I don't think that through any of the almost 10 years of agnosticism and atheism I was ever without the HS.



I didn't go back and reread this thread.  As I often do, I started at the end and read backward.  The quote above caught my eye.  Unregenerate people are not indwelled by the Holy Spirit.  Would you like to clarify?


----------



## Mexican Squealer

Glad you found God and continue to seek answers.  Don't know what I would do without HIM.


----------



## atlashunter

j_seph said:


> What he wanted and what was needed 2 different things. Had I gotten what I wanted a year and a half ago instead of what I needed a year ago my life would not be what it is today spiritually, emotionally, nor physically.
> Had I gotten what I wanted and asked for 13 years ago, I would not have been a widower 3 years ago. I would be a much different person today had I got what I wanted 13 years ago. I am sure you have heard God has a plan. As my late wife was rolled away for her first surgery the words I can remember her saying more so than anything she ever said to me was God has a plan, we may not like it but he does have a plan.



"God has a plan" on what evidence? The world I see is exactly what I would expect of a world with no plan.


----------



## atlashunter

TripleXBullies said:


> This is what I am going to ask my pastor about:
> 
> When Jesus died he left the holy spirit right? Who is here with us, guiding us and everything. I'd say he's frequently not easy to  understand or understand if it's him or not since it's pretty much all internal. I have said it, probably ANYONE has said it - God, just boom to me from a cloud, talk from a donkey or a burning bush. The bible says we don't need that any more because we have the holy spirit.
> 
> Is this is a grass is always greener perspective that we wish that God would just do that for us? Man those goat herders 2000+ years ago had it so much easier. You can't deny a talking donkey! So my question for him would be, can you point me to where I can get a better feeling for how it used to be, and how we  have it better because we have the holy spirit? If it was the other way around, what were they wanting and praying for that I know have at my finger tips?



I'm not aware of any place in the Bible that says miracles are a thing of the past because now you have the Holy Spirit. To the contrary John chapter 14 says the following.

11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

According to this passage christians should be able to perform the same and even greater miracles that Jesus performed. Are they? It also says you can ask ANYTHING in his name and he WILL do it. That's not my interpretation. Those are the exact words. That's what it says. That is easy enough to put to the test.


----------



## bullethead

Those direct and precise verses that are specific and to the point with no room for interpretation and yet never pan out are not popular topics that many believers want to discuss.


----------



## ky55

atlashunter said:


> "God has a plan" on what evidence? The world I see is exactly what I would expect of a world with no plan.



There is no plan.


----------



## Israel

To say there is no plan one might have to be equipped to identify how_ plan _appears. Can one say _plan_ is a _real thing_, but absent? From where is this _reality_ of _plan_ then that one says "There is none"?


----------



## bullethead

Israel said:


> To say there is no plan one might have to be equipped to identify how_ plan _appears. Can one say _plan_ is a _real thing_, but absent? From where is this _reality_ of _plan_ then that one says "There is none"?


Or
Ask the people who constantly claim there is a plan to back up their claim.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Or
> Ask the people who constantly claim there is a plan to back up their claim.



2000+ precisely fulfilled prophecies.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> 2000+ precisely fulfilled prophecies.



You say that but do not discuss what the prophecies are and how they got fulfilled.
When brought up previously, you ignore the prophecies that absolutely in no way shape or form have been fulfilled. And are blind to the Jewish history where other figures actually fulfilled more prophecies than Jesus, yet still fell short of meeting the credentials for a Messiah. 

When shown that the writers of the NT had the advantage of knowing the OT and writing the NT character to try to fulfill those prophecies(yet still failing even with that advantage), you ignore it and continue on.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> You say that but do not discuss what the prophecies are and how they got fulfilled.
> When brought up previously, you ignore the prophecies that absolutely in no way shape or form have been fulfilled. And are blind to the Jewish history where other figures actually fulfilled more prophecies than Jesus, yet still fell short of meeting the credentials for a Messiah.
> 
> When shown that the writers of the NT had the advantage of knowing the OT and writing the NT character to try to fulfill those prophecies(yet still failing even with that advantage), you ignore it and continue on.



Secular history and archaeology also support many of those fulfilled prophecies.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Secular history and archaeology also support many of those fulfilled prophecies.



Welder you can constantly say these things but until you back them up they are useless and meaningless.


----------



## bullethead

THE CRITERIA TO BE FULFILLED BY THE JEWISH MESSIAH

In an accurate translation of the Jewish Scriptures, the word "Moshiach" is never translated as "Messiah," but as "anointed."1Nevertheless, Judaism has always maintained a fundamental belief in a Messianic figure. Since the concept of a Messiah is one that was given by G-d to the Jews, Jewish tradition is best qualified to describe and recognize the expected Messiah. This tradition has its foundation in numerous biblical references, many of which are cited below. Judaism understands the Messiah to be a human being (with no connotation of deity or divinity) who will bring about certain changes in the world and who must fulfill certain specific criteria before being acknowledged as the Messiah.

These specific criteria are as follows:

1) He must be Jewish. (Deuteronomy 17:15, Numbers 24:17)

2) He must be a member of the tribe of Judah(Genesis 49:10) and a direct male descendent of both King David (I Chronicles 17:11, Psalm 89:29-38, Jeremiah 33:17, II Samuel 7:12-16) and King Solomon. (I Chronicles 22:10, II Chronicles 7:18)

3) He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel. (Isaiah 27:12-13, Isaiah 11:12)

4) He must rebuild the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. (Micah 4:1)

5) He must bring world peace. (Isaiah 2:4, Isaiah 11:6, Micah 4:3)

6) He must influence the entire world to acknowledge and serve one G-d. (Isaiah 11:9, Isaiah 40:5, Zephaniah 3:9)

All of these criteria for the Messiah are best stated in the book of Ezekiel chapter 37:24-28:

"And My servant David will be a king over them, and they will all have one shepherd, and they will walk in My ordinances, andCensoredkeep My statutes, and observe them, and they shall live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant...and I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant and I will set my sanctuaryin their midst forever and My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their G-d and they will be My people. And the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever."

If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, he cannot be the Messiah.”


----------



## bullethead

The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)

Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)

The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)

He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chronicles 22:8-10,Censored2 Chronicles 7:18)

The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)

Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)Censored

He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)

All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)

Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)

There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)

All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)

The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)

He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)

Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-15:5)

The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)

The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)

Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)

The Temple will be rebuilt resuming many of the suspended mitzvot (Ezekiel 40)

He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)

Jews will know the Torah without study (Jeremiah 31:33)[3]

He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)

He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3,Amos 9:13-15,Ezekiel 36:29-30,Isaiah 11:6-9)


----------



## bullethead

Welder, wait....let me guess...
"Jesus is going to do all of the things that he hasnt done...."

So are all the rest of the guys in their 2nd, 3rd 4th etc etc comings.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Welder you can constantly say these things but until you back them up they are useless and meaningless.



Do an honest study on it with an open mind to receive true knowledge.
I don't have time to do it for you. You wouldn't listen to me anyhow, you never have before.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Do an honest study on it with an open mind to receive true knowledge.
> I don't have time to do it for you. You wouldn't listen to me anyhow, you never have before.



I have.
The study leads me to believe that Jesus did not fulfull what was required based off of the evidence that I presented to you above.

When I offer you the chance to take your claim and dazzle me with evidence that backs up your claim you bow out.
Typical


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> I have.
> The study leads me to believe that Jesus did not fulfull what was required based off of the evidence that I presented to you above.
> 
> When I offer you the chance to take your claim and dazzle me with evidence that backs up your claim you bow out.
> Typical



I can't help you. Sorry.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> I can't help you. Sorry.



Are you able to stop the unverifiable claims?
Why constantly post things that you know you do not posess the knowledge and more importantly facts to back them up?
Help would be providing those things and why you cannot help.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Are you able to stop the unverifiable claims?
> Why constantly post things that you know you do not posess the knowledge and more importantly facts to back them up?
> Help would be providing those things and why you cannot help.



Just do this one thing for me,ok.

Tell me how it was foretold the exact time that Cyrus was born, his name, the exact time he would begin to rule, what he would accomplish during his reign, and the exact time he would decree to rebuild the temple at Jerusalem.

Secular history alone supports all this as precisely fulfilled.

Do you know the odds of all of it coming true exactly as prophecied?


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Just do this one thing for me,ok.
> 
> Tell me how it was foretold the exact time that Cyrus was born, his name, the exact time he would begin to rule, what he would accomplish during his reign, and the exact time he would decree to rebuild the temple at Jerusalem.
> 
> Secular history alone supports all this as precisely fulfilled.
> 
> Do you know the odds of all of it coming true exactly as prophecied?



Show me where this written/foretold. 
Show me where secular history supports it.


----------



## bullethead

Read this welder. 
https://infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/prophecy.html


----------



## bullethead

A story comes to mind when fulfilled prophesy is written afterwards.
“While traveling through a forest, a person noticed a circle marked on a tree with an arrow shot perfectly into the center. A few yards away he noticed several more targets, each with arrows in the center. Later, he met the talented archer and he asked him, "How did you become such an expert that you always get your arrows into the center of the bull's-eye?" "It's not difficult," responded the archer, "First I shoot the arrow and then I draw the circle."


----------



## bullethead

And lets not forget that Isaiah was written by at least two different writers.


----------



## welderguy

Let me help you, I see you're struggling a little.
Isaiah (740 BC-681BC)
Cyrus the great, born in 590BC.

Isaiah prophecied of Cyrus BEFORE he was born.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Let me help you, I see you're struggling a little.
> Isaiah (740 BC-681BC)
> Cyrus the great, born in 590BC.
> 
> Isaiah prophecied of Cyrus BEFORE he was born.



Yes I was struggling a little, this cleared it up.

"Modern scholarship considers the Book of Isaiah to be an anthology, the two principal compositions of which are the Book of Isaiah proper (chapters 1-39, with some exceptions), containing the words of the prophet Isaiah himself, dating from the time of the First Temple, around 700 BCE, and Second Isaiah (Deutero-Isaiah, chapters 40-66), comprising the words of an anonymous prophet, who lived some one hundred and fifty years later, around the time of the Babylonian exile and the restoration of the Temple in the Persian Period. By the time our Isaiah Scroll was copied (the last third of the second century BCE), the book was already regarded as a single composition.

If so, no miracles or prophecies are required to explain the mention of Cyrus in the Book of Isaiah: Chapter 45, where his name is mentioned, was originally written during the time of Cyrus's rule."


----------



## bullethead

All but the most conservative scholars now accept the hypothesis put forward by Doederlein . . . that the prophecies contained in chapters 40-66 of the book of Isaiah are not the words of the eighth-century prophet Isaiah but come from a later time.” (The New Century Bible Commentary notes)


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> All but the most conservative scholars now accept the hypothesis put forward by Doederlein . . . that the prophecies contained in chapters 40-66 of the book of Isaiah are not the words of the eighth-century prophet Isaiah but come from a later time.” (The New Century Bible Commentary notes)



Since you reject Isaiah, how about the account of Cyrus in the book of Daniel then?


----------



## j_seph

atlashunter said:


> "God has a plan" on what evidence? The world I see is exactly what I would expect of a world with no plan.


I presume that because this picture shows a starving, dying child with a buzzard behind it you are meaning there is no plan because an all mighty God would not let this happen?


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Since you reject Isaiah, how about the account of Cyrus in the book of Daniel then?



I reject that too

Welder what is your criteria for something being prophetic?

Would you care to explain all the unfulfilled prophecies in both Isaiah and Daniel that even biblical scholars cannot make cases for? 
In your opinion why do you think these writers are spot on accurate in one prediction and miss by so far in the next?


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> I reject that too
> 
> Welder what is your criteria for something being prophetic?
> 
> Would you care to explain all the unfulfilled prophecies in both Isaiah and Daniel that even biblical scholars cannot make cases for?
> In your opinion why do you think these writers are spot on accurate in one prediction and miss by so far in the next?



Can you give me specifics?


----------



## ambush80

j_seph said:


> I presume that because this picture shows a starving, dying child with a buzzard behind it you are meaning there is no plan because an all mighty God would not let this happen?



I won't speak for Atlas, but for myself, I have internalized the concept that a God might create a child to starve to death and be eaten alive by vultures.  A God CAN do whatever it wants to.  I have also internalized the notion that a God might have a plan for that child's suffering that He keeps a mystery from us. I also internalize the notion that such a Being could make people for the expressed purpose of sending their eternal souls to He11 for eternity even if they lived good lives. 

I have internalized that a God can do whatever it wants.

If such a being exists I refuse to acknowledge or worship it.  That is all.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Can you give me specifics?



All I have given you are specifics.
I am dying for you to provide something, anything specifoc that backs up your claims.
You cite that secular history backs up the prophecy.
No, it doesnt, rhe bible backs up the bible. 

Here is a link that provides specifics regarding timelines in the book of Daniel and the events that you say it accurately predicted.
http://www.bibleorigins.net/DanielFailedPropheciesOf.html


----------



## bullethead

ambush80 said:


> I won't speak for Atlas, but for myself, I have internalized the concept that a God might create a child to starve to death and be eaten alive by vultures.  A God CAN do whatever it wants to.  I have also internalized the notion that a God might have a plan for that child's suffering that He keeps a mystery from us. I also internalize the notion that such a Being could make people for the expressed purpose of sending their eternal souls to He11 for eternity even if they lived good lives.
> 
> I have internalized that a God can do whatever it wants.
> 
> If such a being exists I refuse to acknowledge or worship it.  That is all.


Yep.
And a good reason why for tens of thousands of years people tailor the gods they invent to suit.


----------



## j_seph

Do you with children punish them, whip them? Did you parents whip you? Does that mean you have no care for them at all? No love for them at all? Have any of y'all ever punished your child because they were in the wrong, even though another child put them in the position to be in the wrong? 
My God does not wish for pain or suffering nor for anyone to die and go to He!!. I have learned that it would take an intervention with God himself for several before they would believe and not have doubt. All I can offer is what he has done for me, brought me through and out of and say a prayer for ya. It is y'alls choice where ya sit in the end, smoking or non smoking.

Think about this, the little kid IMO is still innocent and as well IMO will be in heaven. I agree it is pitiful and heartbreaking. Could someone along the way 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 50 years ago have done something different, something that the Lord had told them to do yet failed to do it made a difference in that kids life today? Are you so sure God did not have a plan yet someone along the way got out of Gods Will, disobeyed him and in turn this is the effect from that.


----------



## bullethead

j_seph said:


> Do you with children punish them, whip them? Did you parents whip you? Does that mean you have no care for them at all? No love for them at all? Have any of y'all ever punished your child because they were in the wrong, even though another child put them in the position to be in the wrong?
> My God does not wish for pain or suffering nor for anyone to die and go to He!!. I have learned that it would take an intervention with God himself for several before they would believe and not have doubt. All I can offer is what he has done for me, brought me through and out of and say a prayer for ya. It is y'alls choice where ya sit in the end, smoking or non smoking.
> 
> Think about this, the little kid IMO is still innocent and as well IMO will be in heaven. I agree it is pitiful and heartbreaking. Could someone along the way 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 50 years ago have done something different, something that the Lord had told them to do yet failed to do it made a difference in that kids life today? Are you so sure God did not have a plan yet someone along the way got out of Gods Will, disobeyed him and in turn this is the effect from that.



If my child is hungry I feed him. I do not have someone else write my rule book and fill it with parables, contradictions and confusion in the hopes somebody reads it and feeds my child.

Are you sure the thing that you worship has the power to help that child at all? Or are you content passing the buck onto someone else 50 years earlier?


----------



## j_seph

Did African famine start before or after new testament in bible? How can a bible, written prior tell of things to come that is happening today?

Matthew 24:7
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Leviticus 26:1-2

1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God.

2 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the Lord.

3 If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them;

4 Then I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.

5 And your threshing shall reach unto the vintage, and the vintage shall reach unto the sowing time: and ye shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.

6 And I will give peace in the land, and ye shall lie down, and none shall make you afraid: and I will rid evil beasts out of the land, neither shall the sword go through your land.

7 And ye shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword.

8 And five of you shall chase an hundred, and an hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight: and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword.

9 For I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you.

Read Deuteronomy 28 

If you like reading here is something else
https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-too...the-horsemen-of-revelation-the-black-horse-of


----------



## bullethead

j_seph said:


> Do you with children punish them, whip them? Did you parents whip you? Does that mean you have no care for them at all? No love for them at all? Have any of y'all ever punished your child because they were in the wrong, even though another child put them in the position to be in the wrong?
> My God does not wish for pain or suffering nor for anyone to die and go to He!!. I have learned that it would take an intervention with God himself for several before they would believe and not have doubt. All I can offer is what he has done for me, brought me through and out of and say a prayer for ya. It is y'alls choice where ya sit in the end, smoking or non smoking.
> 
> Think about this, the little kid IMO is still innocent and as well IMO will be in heaven. I agree it is pitiful and heartbreaking. Could someone along the way 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 50 years ago have done something different, something that the Lord had told them to do yet failed to do it made a difference in that kids life today? Are you so sure God did not have a plan yet someone along the way got out of Gods Will, disobeyed him and in turn this is the effect from that.



In your version of heaven does this kid look like he would in his healthy prime at an age in his mid 20s?
Does he look like does and at the age he is in the pic?
What are the images of all the dead in heaven? Does god clean em up sp that they are presentable?


----------



## bullethead

j_seph said:


> Did African famine start before or after new testament in bible? How can a bible, written prior tell of things to come that is happening today?
> 
> Matthew 24:7
> 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
> 
> Leviticus 26:1-2
> 
> 1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God.
> 
> 2 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the Lord.
> 
> 3 If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them;
> 
> 4 Then I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.
> 
> 5 And your threshing shall reach unto the vintage, and the vintage shall reach unto the sowing time: and ye shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.
> 
> 6 And I will give peace in the land, and ye shall lie down, and none shall make you afraid: and I will rid evil beasts out of the land, neither shall the sword go through your land.
> 
> 7 And ye shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword.
> 
> 8 And five of you shall chase an hundred, and an hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight: and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword.
> 
> 9 For I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you.
> 
> Read Deuteronomy 28
> 
> If you like reading here is something else
> https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-too...the-horsemen-of-revelation-the-black-horse-of


Famine has been around 100's of thousands of years before the bible.

The bible tells of these things because they are well known at the time of the writings. It predicts others and totally fabricates some.

Which is more impressive,  shooting an arrow into a bullseye at an unknown distance or shooting an arrow into something and then drawing the the bullseye around the arrow?


----------



## j_seph

bullethead said:


> In your version of heaven does this kid look like he would in his healthy prime at an age in his mid 20s?
> Does he look like does and at the age he is in the pic?
> What are the images of all the dead in heaven? Does god clean em up sp that they are presentable?



I will say this, if I am wrong which I am not in following Christ, being a born again Christian you get the last laugh I guess. However have you given serious thought to the consequences when you are told "I never knew you, depart from me" when you reach that point and have the remembrance of all who have forewarned you with a condemning conscience as you spend an eternity in HeII

1 Corinthians 15:44 

41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.


----------



## bullethead

j_seph said:


> I will say this, if I am wrong which I am not in following Christ, being a born again Christian you get the last laugh I guess. However have you given serious thought to the consequences when you are told "I never knew you, depart from me" when you reach that point and have the remembrance of all who have forewarned you with a condemning conscience as you spend an eternity in HeII
> 
> 1 Corinthians 15:44
> 
> 41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.


This has been discussed many times but I will still indulge you.
Have you ever considered that we are both wrong?

Have you missed your own bible teachings that  your god decides who follows him and who does not?

Is it posssible that neither you or I and certainly the authors of ancient texts are capable of understanding a being that operates in a realm so far above our capability? And if there actually is a god that is the reason humans disagree so widely..because everyone must make a version of that god to the specifications that they can understand which most likely are not anywhere close to what the real god is?

Is there one god, thousands of gods or none?

There is what you and I believe and what you  and I know.
One of use is just fooling themself into thinking they know the unknowable.

Why do you constantly post the bible verses that you feel back up your point and ignore the ones that contradict?


----------



## TripleXBullies

centerpin fan said:


> I didn't go back and reread this thread.  As I often do, I started at the end and read backward.  The quote above caught my eye.  Unregenerate people are not indwelled by the Holy Spirit.  Would you like to clarify?



Define Unregenerate please?


----------



## TripleXBullies

atlashunter said:


> I'm not aware of any place in the Bible that says miracles are a thing of the past because now you have the Holy Spirit. To the contrary John chapter 14 says the following.
> 
> 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
> 
> According to this passage christians should be able to perform the same and even greater miracles that Jesus performed. Are they? It also says you can ask ANYTHING in his name and he WILL do it. That's not my interpretation. Those are the exact words. That's what it says. That is easy enough to put to the test.



I didn't mean that miracles were a thing of the past. I mean that audible words from God are more of a thing of the past.


----------



## centerpin fan

TripleXBullies said:


> Define Unregenerate please?



Unsaved, heathen, pagan, nonbeliever, unrepentant, etc.


----------



## TripleXBullies

Maybe I wasn't and couldn't have been filled with the HS.. but are you saying that the HS couldn't have been involved with my life?


----------



## j_seph

From my studies, from the most popular verse there probably is in the book of John Chapter 3 it tells whomsoever.

We are told we will not know everything nor know everything.

There is one God

Why do I post verses the I feel back me up. I do not ignore any however I do not go seeking prove God wrong. That I guess is a difference between believers and non. When you experience things, see things, hear things that are what we call testimonies. Works of God that even doctors cannot explain or no man can how can one say God does not exist?


----------



## centerpin fan

TripleXBullies said:


> Maybe I wasn't and couldn't have been filled with the HS.. but are you saying that the HS couldn't have been involved with my life?



As I said before:



centerpin fan said:


> Unregenerate people are not indwelled by the Holy Spirit.



That doesn't mean God can't use people or situations to lead us to Him.


----------



## TripleXBullies

centerpin fan said:


> As I said before:
> 
> 
> 
> That doesn't mean God can't use people or situations to lead us to Him.



Then I guess I'm agreeing with you. He was at work in my life. I didn't mean I was filled with the HS.


----------



## bullethead

j_seph said:


> From my studies, from the most popular verse there probably is in the book of John Chapter 3 it tells whomsoever.
> 
> We are told we will not know everything nor know everything.
> 
> There is one God
> 
> Why do I post verses the I feel back me up. I do not ignore any however I do not go seeking prove God wrong. That I guess is a difference between believers and non. When you experience things, see things, hear things that are what we call testimonies. Works of God that even doctors cannot explain or no man can how can one say God does not exist?


You said it yourself, things happen that are unexplained and unexplainable, and while nobody knows how or why...even doctors...you explain it as the work of a god just like the people of thousands of years ago did when they absolutely cannot understand something. Isn't it thouhht provoking that it is always the god you happen to believe in when it involves you and that gods all over the planet get the same credit as your god does when the same unexplainable events happen to people that believe in them?


----------



## ambush80

j_seph said:


> From my studies, from the most popular verse there probably is in the book of John Chapter 3 it tells whomsoever.
> 
> We are told we will not know everything nor know everything.
> 
> There is one God
> 
> Why do I post verses the I feel back me up. I do not ignore any however I do not go seeking prove God wrong. That I guess is a difference between believers and non. When you experience things, see things, hear things that are what we call testimonies. Works of God that even doctors cannot explain or no man can how can one say God does not exist?



A person that REALLY wants to know the truth about anything they will try to find things that DIS-prove what they believe.  That's why most atheists have read many religious books, listened to criticisms of atheism, read apologist literature and ask questions of believers.  When believers say that they don't seek to prove their God wrong, they show that their beliefs aren't well examined or well formed.


----------



## ambush80

Triple X,

Did you try to fit anything else in the "hole"?


----------



## bullethead

ambush80 said:


> A person that REALLY wants to know the truth about anything will try to find things the DIS-prove what they believe.  That's why most atheists have read many religious books, listened to criticisms of atheism, read apologist literature and ask questions of believers.  When believers say that they don't seek to prove their God wrong, they show that their beliefs aren't well examined or well formed.


I once thought it was impossible to prove god wrong,  until I tried it.
Once I got past the notion to try, the courage to go through with it and the first step towards researching what is contained in the bible(which I was positive was infallible) I was shocked at how easy it was and is to discount it and see that it is not the work of a god at all. If it is the work of a god, and that is the best that a supposed god can do, it is not something that I am interested in worshiping .


----------



## j_seph

Why do some of those who do not believe, those that say there is no God, those who fight so hard to say there isn't and as many here seek to prove it come around after the fact? Sorry that was probably a run on sentence or something lol. Anyone on FB look up Dave Glander, he is on example.


----------



## atlashunter

j_seph said:


> I presume that because this picture shows a starving, dying child with a buzzard behind it you are meaning there is no plan because an all mighty God would not let this happen?



A starving child with a buzzard waiting to eat it is what I would expect of a world where no one was at the wheel. Where anything that can happen sooner or later will and without any regard for how special we presume ourselves to be in this universe. I cannot entirely rule out a god but based on the observable evidence the least likely scenario is an all powerful, all knowing, all loving god. The deist's god is more probable than that.


“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. 
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. 
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? 
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”


Or perhaps there simply is no god in which case the riddle is easily solved.


As Mark Twain wrote in Thoughts of God.



> To rescue without personal risk a cripple from a burning house is not a mercy, it is a mere commonplace duty; anybody would do it that could. And not by proxy, either - delegating the work but confiscating the credit for it. If men neglected "God’s poor" and "God’s stricken and helpless ones" as He does, what would become of them? The answer is to be found in those dark lands where man follows His example and turns his indifferent back upon them: they get no help at all; they cry, and plead and pray in vain, they linger and suffer, and miserably die. If you will look at the matter rationally and without prejudice, the proper place to hunt for the facts of His mercy, is not where man does the mercies and He collects the praise, but in those regions where He has the field to Himself.


----------



## atlashunter

j_seph said:


> We are told we will not know everything nor know everything.



True but no excuse to abandon reason and evidence.





j_seph said:


> I do not ignore any however I do not go seeking prove God wrong.



Why not?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias




j_seph said:


> When you experience things, see things, hear things that are what we call testimonies. Works of God that even doctors cannot explain or no man can how can one say God does not exist?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps


----------



## Israel

atlashunter said:


> A starving child with a buzzard waiting to eat it is what I would expect of a world where no one was at the wheel. Where anything that can happen sooner or later will and without any regard for how special we presume ourselves to be in this universe. I cannot entirely rule out a god but based on the observable evidence the least likely scenario is an all powerful, all knowing, all loving god. The deist's god is more probable than that.
> 
> 
> “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
> Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
> Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
> Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
> 
> 
> Or perhaps there simply is no god in which case the riddle is easily solved.
> 
> 
> As Mark Twain wrote in Thoughts of God.





> To rescue without personal risk a cripple from a burning house is not a mercy, it is a mere commonplace duty; anybody would do it that could. And not by proxy, either - delegating the work but confiscating the credit for it. If men neglected "God’s poor" and "God’s stricken and helpless ones" as He does, what would become of them? The answer is to be found in those dark lands where man follows His example and turns his indifferent back upon them: they get no help at all; they cry, and plead and pray in vain, they linger and suffer, and miserably die. If you will look at the matter rationally and without prejudice, the proper place to hunt for the facts of His mercy, is not where man does the mercies and He collects the praise, but in those regions where He has the field to Himself.





A simple fault in Twain's exposition is this. The arsonist. Some actually do delight in burning it all down, regardless of who may be inside.

What if we then say..."but that is aberrant behavior" that just proves the rule. What is telling us it's aberrant?


----------



## WaltL1

j_seph said:


> From my studies, from the most popular verse there probably is in the book of John Chapter 3 it tells whomsoever.
> 
> We are told we will not know everything nor know everything.
> 
> There is one God
> 
> Why do I post verses the I feel back me up. I do not ignore any however I do not go seeking prove God wrong. That I guess is a difference between believers and non. When you experience things, see things, hear things that are what we call testimonies. Works of God that even doctors cannot explain or no man can how can one say God does not exist?





> however I do not go seeking prove God wrong. That I guess is a difference between believers and non.


Think about your guess for a moment.
For a nonbeliever to want to "prove God wrong", they would have to first believe a god exists.
That would make them a believer not a nonbeliever.
It seems to be a common misconception. We hear it a lot.
"You hate God", "you want to prove God wrong" or the ever ridiculous "you think you are a God".
A nonbeliever doesn't believe God exists. Hence the name.
If you don't believe a god exists, you don't hate it or think its wrong.
Its just not there. Until you or someone else proves that is. Until then, your guess is just wrong. 
Guess again. (or you can pay attention to what we actually say to you as opposed to what you "guess").


----------



## WaltL1

> Originally Posted by bullethead
> All but the most conservative scholars now accept the hypothesis put forward by Doederlein . . . that the prophecies contained in chapters 40-66 of the book of Isaiah are not the words of the eighth-century prophet Isaiah but come from a later time.” (The New Century Bible Commentary)





welderguy said:


> Since you reject Isaiah, how about the account of Cyrus in the book of Daniel then?


Its interesting to me that you ignored "all but the most conservative scholars" and turned it into "YOU reject Isaiah".
Is that less threatening for you?


----------



## TripleXBullies

ambush80 said:


> Triple X,
> 
> Did you try to fit anything else in the "hole"?



I think I answered that earlier with a more specific question of me considering other religions/gods. No I did not. 

I thought I would be terribly uncomfortable at church that first time in 10 years, that I would have to grit my teeth through it. I turned out being pretty uncomfortable because I wasn't uncomfortable at all. This was the same God of my youth. He made a hole in the wall for himself.


----------



## atlashunter

Israel said:


> What is telling us it's aberrant?



The same thing that tells you it's good when something good happens that you give a god credit for.


----------



## bullethead

j_seph said:


> Why do some of those who do not believe, those that say there is no God, those who fight so hard to say there isn't and as many here seek to prove it come around after the fact? Sorry that was probably a run on sentence or something lol. Anyone on FB look up Dave Glander, he is on example.


After the fact of what??


----------



## atlashunter

j_seph said:


> I will say this, if I am wrong which I am not in following Christ, being a born again Christian you get the last laugh I guess. However have you given serious thought to the consequences when you are told "I never knew you, depart from me" when you reach that point and have the remembrance of all who have forewarned you with a condemning conscience as you spend an eternity in HeII



What you are talking about is Pascal's wager. Just believe. What have you got to lose? Well a fair bit in this life as it turns out depending on just how far you take faith. The first problem that comes to mind with Pascal's wager is, which god do you choose to gamble on? There are thousands of them. What if you pick the wrong one? You're in no better position then than the atheist. Have you given serious thought to the consequences of offending all those other gods? Here's another thought for you. What if there is an intelligence behind all of this and life really is a test but it's not the test you think? What if the creator is one of reason and bestowed reason upon us and the challenge is to weed out those who will cave in to fear and abandon their reason for faith from those who won't? Maybe you are the one who squeezes through the keyhole of death to find on the other side that the winners are those who didn't engage in wish thinking. Or perhaps death is simply the same state of non existence it was before your life began. Place your bets where you want but don't kid yourself thinking by choosing a particular god that you've improved your odds over anyone else.


----------



## Israel

atlashunter said:


> The same thing that tells you it's good when something good happens that you give a god credit for.



Then disregard that question because it's obvious the first matter has not been addressed. "All men" do not go into burning buildings. Some set them afire.


----------



## bullethead

atlashunter said:


> what you are talking about is pascal's wager. Just believe. What have you got to lose? Well a fair bit in this life as it turns out depending on just how far you take faith. The first problem that comes to mind with pascal's wager is, which god do you choose to gamble on? There are thousands of them. What if you pick the wrong one? You're in no better position then than the atheist. Have you given serious thought to the consequences of offending all those other gods? Here's another thought for you. What if there is an intelligence behind all of this and life really is a test but it's not the test you think? What if the creator is one of reason and bestowed reason upon us and the challenge is to weed out those who will cave in to fear and abandon their reason for faith from those who won't? Maybe you are the one who squeezes through the keyhole of death to find on the other side that the winners are those who didn't engage in wish thinking. Or perhaps death is simply the same state of non existence it was before your life began. Place your bets where you want but don't kid yourself thinking by choosing a particular god that you've improved your odds over anyone else.


bingo


----------



## atlashunter

Israel said:


> Then disregard that question because it's obvious the first matter has not been addressed. "All men" do not go into burning buildings. Some set them afire.



Twain didn't say "all men" and I think you're completely missing his point.


----------



## ky55

atlashunter said:


> Twain didn't say "all men" and I think you're completely missing his point.



Not missing........ignoring-or denying.


----------



## Israel

"anybody would do it that could."


----------



## Israel

Is his point not an issue with those who redirect appreciation to God, other than accept it to themselves as men, for man? If he, then maintains the "no god" (as Walt has sought to define it)...then the defect, if it is found in reason, is with the man _who redirects _to God.


----------



## atlashunter

Israel said:


> "anybody would do it that could."



It's in the context of the proclaimed moral goodness of god. If you want to claim god is like a man that wouldn't engage in what we consider a "commonplace duty" for moral men go right ahead.


----------



## ky55

Israel said:


> Is his point not an issue with those who redirect appreciation to God, other than accept it to themselves as men, for man? If he, then maintains the "no god" (as Walt has sought to define it)...then the defect, if it is found in reason, is with the man _who redirects _to God.



I thought his "point" was very plain:

"If men neglected "God’s poor" and "God’s stricken and helpless ones" as He does, what would become of them? The answer is to be found in those dark lands where man follows His example and turns his indifferent back upon them: they get no help at all; they cry, and plead and pray in vain, they linger and suffer, and miserably die. "


Mercy and compassion comes only from man. 

*


----------



## j_seph

Quick Google search says there are 5 major world religions.

Christianity - Believes in One God
Buddhism - Does not worship any God/Gods
Newage - Believes we ourselves are God
Islam - Believes in One God
Hinduism - Infinite manifestations of God(single not plural)

So now we have 3 of the 5 who say one God, each one promises Heaven, Paradise, or Soul to be at Rest and no more rebirths.

Each of the 3 have different ways of reaching the final goal of the soul being at rest/peace when your life is over.

I personally have had, felt, and seen too many things happen based on my Christianity belief and teachings. There for I chose my one God who sent his son to die for my sins that saved my soul. God Bless all of ya


----------



## bullethead

j_seph said:


> Quick Google search says there are 5 major world religions.
> 
> Christianity - Believes in One God
> Buddhism - Does not worship any God/Gods
> Newage - Believes we ourselves are God
> Islam - Believes in One God
> Hinduism - Infinite manifestations of God(single not plural)
> 
> So now we have 3 of the 5 who say one God, each one promises Heaven, Paradise, or Soul to be at Rest and no more rebirths.
> 
> Each of the 3 have different ways of reaching the final goal of the soul being at rest/peace when your life is over.
> 
> I personally have had, felt, and seen too many things happen based on my Christianity belief and teachings. There for I chose my one God who sent his son to die for my sins that saved my soul. God Bless all of ya



Why isn't there 1 religion if one is all that is true?
Why do the believers in other religions have the same experiences as you and give their god credit?
How is it that I have experiences similar to you and give credit to no god?


----------



## WaltL1

j_seph said:


> Quick Google search says there are 5 major world religions.
> 
> Christianity - Believes in One God
> Buddhism - Does not worship any God/Gods
> Newage - Believes we ourselves are God
> Islam - Believes in One God
> Hinduism - Infinite manifestations of God(single not plural)
> 
> So now we have 3 of the 5 who say one God, each one promises Heaven, Paradise, or Soul to be at Rest and no more rebirths.
> 
> Each of the 3 have different ways of reaching the final goal of the soul being at rest/peace when your life is over.
> 
> I personally have had, felt, and seen too many things happen based on my Christianity belief and teachings. There for I chose my one God who sent his son to die for my sins that saved my soul. God Bless all of ya


Just like a buffet. 
Choose what looks tastiest to you.


> I personally have had, felt, and seen too many things happen based on my Christianity belief and teachings.


Its not a coincidence that you chose to give the credit to the one you were taught and believe.
You didn't choose by proving the others wrong you just chose what you were taught.
At one time we were taught the earth was flat.....


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Why isn't there 1 religion if one is all that is true?
> Why do the believers in other religions have the same experiences as you and give their god credit?
> How is it that I have experiences similar to you and give credit to no god?



How is it that only some are able to believe that Jesus is the Son of God?


----------



## j_seph

WaltL1 said:


> Just like a buffet.
> Choose what looks tastiest to you.
> 
> Its not a coincidence that you chose to give the credit to the one you were taught and believe.
> You didn't choose by proving the others wrong you just chose what you were taught.
> At one time we were taught the earth was flat.....


Very little church till age 17, got saved at age 19, I walked away from church, 42 years old before I actually started my walk in faith and truly following him doing my best to live for the Lord. Only in the past couple years have I paid any attention to things in my life prior and experienced the things I have.


----------



## WaltL1

welderguy said:


> How is it that only some are able to believe that Jesus is the Son of God?


Same way some are able to believe in unicorns. Or Bigfoot. or the Loch Ness monster or Wakan Tanka or.......


----------



## WaltL1

j_seph said:


> Very little church till age 17, got saved at age 19, I walked away from church, 42 years old before I actually started my walk in faith and truly following him doing my best to live for the Lord. Only in the past couple years have I paid any attention to things in my life prior and experienced the things I have.


This still stands -


> You didn't choose by proving the others wrong you just chose what you were taught.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> How is it that only some are able to believe that Jesus is the Son of God?



Upbringing, culture, geographic location, force.

Nobody knows a god that wasnt told about it in one way or another first. 

Welder if you were born on a remote island and cut off from hearing about JC and lived your live without being told about JC you wouldnt know or care who JC was.

Everyone is able to believe. Some are willing to go with the god that best fits their needs. Everyone is able to not believe based on whatever criteria fits.
It is ALL about personal choice. No god necessary.


----------



## bullethead

j_seph said:


> Very little church till age 17, got saved at age 19, I walked away from church, 42 years old before I actually started my walk in faith and truly following him doing my best to live for the Lord. Only in the past couple years have I paid any attention to things in my life prior and experienced the things I have.



But you live in an area where belief in JC is strong.
Take your same story above but yet you live in Iran. You will have come to Allah. Same story different god, just as positive that the choice is the ONLY one.


----------



## atlashunter

j_seph said:


> Quick Google search says there are 5 major world religions.
> 
> Christianity - Believes in One God
> Buddhism - Does not worship any God/Gods
> Newage - Believes we ourselves are God
> Islam - Believes in One God
> Hinduism - Infinite manifestations of God(single not plural)
> 
> So now we have 3 of the 5 who say one God, each one promises Heaven, Paradise, or Soul to be at Rest and no more rebirths.
> 
> Each of the 3 have different ways of reaching the final goal of the soul being at rest/peace when your life is over.
> 
> I personally have had, felt, and seen too many things happen based on my Christianity belief and teachings. There for I chose my one God who sent his son to die for my sins that saved my soul. God Bless all of ya



Having a large number of followers puts them no closer to what is true. At one time the consensus was the world was flat.


----------



## j_seph

atlashunter said:


> Having a large number of followers puts them no closer to what is true. At one time the consensus was the world was flat.


Maybe it is?
https://theflatearthsociety.org/home/


----------



## welderguy

WaltL1 said:


> Same way some are able to believe in unicorns. Or Bigfoot. or the Loch Ness monster or Wakan Tanka or.......



Ok, how is it that some are not able to believe Jesus is the Son of God, even when they know, with their minds, much about Him?


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Upbringing, culture, geographic location, force.
> 
> Nobody knows a god that wasnt told about it in one way or another first.
> 
> Welder if you were born on a remote island and cut off from hearing about JC and lived your live without being told about JC you wouldnt know or care who JC was.
> 
> Everyone is able to believe. Some are willing to go with the god that best fits their needs. Everyone is able to not believe based on whatever criteria fits.
> It is ALL about personal choice. No god necessary.



I wouldn't know about Him with my mind, but if He revealed Himself to my spirit, that's sufficient.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

ambush80 said:


> If such a being exists I refuse to acknowledge or worship it.  That is all.



And this is the crux of the matter.  "That is all." could be no more true nor accurate.


----------



## WaltL1

welderguy said:


> Ok, how is it that some are not able to believe Jesus is the Son of God, even when they know, with their minds, much about Him?


Give your question just the tiniest bit of thought.

People can tell you about unicorns without believing they exist. People can tell you about the Loch Ness monster without believing it exists.
People can tell you about the Christian God, Allah, Budha , Wakan Tanka, Harry Potter, the Wicked Witch of the West............... without believing they exist.
I bet YOU can give me information about all those I mentioned above.
Therefore you believe they exist right?
If your answer is no, ask yourself how you can know about them, with your mind, but NOT believe they exist.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> I wouldn't know about Him with my mind, but if He revealed Himself to my spirit, that's sufficient.



Your spirit.
An imaginary place to store an imaginary being. 
Perfect

The problem with your scenario is that nobody on remote islands get visits by god, JC, or any other god. Not in person, not in mind, not in "spirit".


----------



## WaltL1

j_seph said:


> Maybe it is?
> https://theflatearthsociety.org/home/


First, I'm assuming you don't believe the earth is flat.
So if a flat earther tried to convince you the earth was flat, what would it take for you to be convinced?


----------



## ambush80

WaltL1 said:


> First, I'm assuming you don't believe the earth is flat.
> So if a flat earther tried to convince you the earth was flat, what would it take for you to be convinced?



The Holy Spirit.


----------



## WaltL1

ambush80 said:


> The Holy Spirit.


I cant decide if this is funny or just a matter of fact


----------



## atlashunter

j_seph said:


> Very little church till age 17, got saved at age 19, I walked away from church, 42 years old before I actually started my walk in faith and truly following him doing my best to live for the Lord. Only in the past couple years have I paid any attention to things in my life prior and experienced the things I have.



Personal experience is claimed by followers of every faith out there.


----------



## welderguy

WaltL1 said:


> Give your question just the tiniest bit of thought.
> 
> People can tell you about unicorns without believing they exist. People can tell you about the Loch Ness monster without believing it exists.
> People can tell you about the Christian God, Allah, Budha , Wakan Tanka, Harry Potter, the Wicked Witch of the West............... without believing they exist.
> I bet YOU can give me information about all those I mentioned above.
> Therefore you believe they exist right?
> If your answer is no, ask yourself how you can know about them, with your mind, but NOT believe they exist.



Both questions were rhetorical.
My point being that mental knowledge, or lack thereof, has absolutely no influence on spirit- knowledge.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Both questions were rhetorical.
> My point being that mental knowledge, or lack thereof, has absolutely no influence on spirit- knowledge.



You are the king of claims and the joker of facts.
How do you sleep knowing that you cannot back up every claim you make?
Why are your truths so elusive?


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Your spirit.
> An imaginary place to store an imaginary being.
> Perfect
> 
> The problem with your scenario is that nobody on remote islands get visits by god, JC, or any other god. Not in person, not in mind, not in "spirit".



I'm very interested in just how you know that people on remote islands do not get visited by the Spirit.


----------



## atlashunter

welderguy said:


> I'm very interested in just how you know that people on remote islands do not get visited by the Spirit.



That would sort of render the great commission pointless wouldn't it?


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> I'm very interested in just how you know that people on remote islands do not get visited by the Spirit.



Name them


----------



## WaltL1

welderguy said:


> Both questions were rhetorical.
> My point being that mental knowledge, or lack thereof, has absolutely no influence on spirit- knowledge.


You are throwing stuff against the wall again.
You can make it stick by backing up your claims.
Otherwise its just sliding down the wall and making the pile bigger and bigger.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Name them



You made this claim:

Quote bullethead"nobody on remote islands get visits by god, JC, or any other god. Not in person, not in mind, not in "spirit".end quote

How do you know this?


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> You made this claim:
> 
> Quote bullethead"nobody on remote islands get visits by god, JC, or any other god. Not in person, not in mind, not in "spirit".end quote
> 
> How do you know this?


Because I cannot find any evidence of it happening.
Do you have evidence that it happens/happened?


----------



## welderguy

atlashunter said:


> That would sort of render the great commission pointless wouldn't it?



No because the great commission's purpose was to spread the mental knowledge from human mouths to human ears.

This is not the knowledge I'm referring to.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Because I cannot find any evidence of it happening.
> Do you have evidence that it happens/happened?



Oh I see. So since bullethead can't find evidence of it, then it must surely be non-existent.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Oh I see. So since bullethead can't find evidence of it, then it must surely be non-existent.



I find it works better than your position of believing in things that have no evidence.


----------



## bullethead

Welder I tried to find information about many of the Japanese soldiers that were abandoned on remote islands when WWII ended.
There are instances where many held out for decades and were surely in need of some help.
I could not find an instance where one became a christian through the ordeal.
I am having trouble finding testimony of anyone that never heard of Jesus being visited by Jesus or his Holy Spirit triplet.


----------



## ambush80

WaltL1 said:


> I cant decide if this is funny or just a matter of fact



It's the most irrefutable reason to believe anything.

Do you think that if Newton presented his _Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica_ and said it was revealed to him by God that it would have gained as much traction as it did?


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Welder I tried to find information about many of the Japanese soldiers that were abandoned on remote islands when WWII ended.
> There are instances where many held out for decades and were surely in need of some help.
> I could not find an instance where one became a christian through the ordeal.
> I am having trouble finding testimony of anyone that never heard of Jesus being visited by Jesus or his Holy Spirit triplet.





News Flash

Bullethead has done an exhaustive search on the world wide web on the moving of the Holy Spirit in secluded Islanders, and he found nothing. This MUST mean that it never ever has happened, because after all, if it's not found on the internet...or more precisely, if not found by bullet on the internet, it must not exist. 

Hmm..I wonder if he checked Patmos??? 
Doubt it.


----------



## WaltL1

> welderguy;10804252]
> 
> News Flash
> 
> Bullethead has done an exhaustive search on the world wide web on the moving of the Holy Spirit in secluded Islanders, and he found nothing. This MUST mean that it never ever has happened, because after all, if it's not found on the internet...or more precisely, if not found by bullet on the internet, it must not exist.
> 
> Hmm..I wonder if he checked Patmos???
> Doubt it.


So whats the significance of Patmos?


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> You are the king of claims and the joker of facts.
> How do you sleep knowing that you cannot back up every claim you make?
> Why are your truths so elusive?



Probably just like me on his knees saying his prayers every night.


----------



## red neck richie

WaltL1 said:


> So whats the significance of Patmos?



Bullethead is  hard headed. He should be on Stone mountain. He thinks everyone with testimony of the Holy Spirit is a Liar.


----------



## WaltL1

red neck richie said:


> Bullethead is  hard head. He should be on Stone mountain. He thinks everyone with testimony of the Holy Spirit is a Liar.


I have a different opinion and I pay pretty close attention to what people say. My opinion is Bullet believes that you believe every word of your testimony.


----------



## red neck richie

WaltL1 said:


> I have a different opinion and I pay pretty close attention to what people say. My opinion is Bullet believes that you believe every word of your testimony.



You know Walt you are in my opinion the most logical on this site. I cant help what I have experienced. I just want to share it with you. I am cool with the disagreements but I can tell you are a good man. I appreciate the back and forth.


----------



## atlashunter

welderguy said:


> No because the great commission's purpose was to spread the mental knowledge from human mouths to human ears.
> 
> This is not the knowledge I'm referring to.



What are you referring to?


----------



## WaltL1

red neck richie said:


> You know Walt you are in my opinion the most logical on this site. I cant help what I have experienced. I just want to share it with you. I am cool with the disagreements but I can tell you are a good man. I appreciate the back and forth.





> You know Walt you are in my opinion the most logical on this site.


I'm not sure if that's a compliment or an insult 
And be careful because Bullet and I agree on a vast majority of these discussions/debates.
I just might be a little better at saying things a bit less bluntly  


> I cant help what I have experienced. I just want to share it with you.


And I'm glad you do. This forum would be crickets chirping without your and other Christians participation.


> I appreciate the back and forth.


Me too.


----------



## j_seph

ambush80 said:


> It's the most irrefutable reason to believe anything.
> 
> Do you think that if Newton presented his _Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica_ and said it was revealed to him by God that it would have gained as much traction as it did?



Maybe God did Guide him
http://www.christianitytoday.com/hi...h-behind-famous-isaac-newton.html#storystream


----------



## atlashunter

j_seph said:


> Maybe God did Guide him
> http://www.christianitytoday.com/hi...h-behind-famous-isaac-newton.html#storystream



I think you're missing the point.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> News Flash
> 
> Bullethead has done an exhaustive search on the world wide web on the moving of the Holy Spirit in secluded Islanders, and he found nothing. This MUST mean that it never ever has happened, because after all, if it's not found on the internet...or more precisely, if not found by bullet on the internet, it must not exist.
> 
> Hmm..I wonder if he checked Patmos???
> Doubt it.



Unlike you, I do something to back up a claim


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Bullethead is  hard headed. He should be on Stone mountain. He thinks everyone with testimony of the Holy Spirit is a Liar.



I am logical and require proof.


----------



## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> I am logical and require proof.



If you were God you wouldn't require faith,  but God does require faith which is in some sense belief without proof,  therefore you currently have no hope in the Christian God, because you stipulate you must have proof. 

I can't give you proof,  I don't think anyone else can either,  so all I can do is offer you a good luck,  and hope that works out for you.  

I do have one question , merely out of curiosity .  You and I both know,  the proof you require is probably not going to come to you via forum discussion,  so what are you seeking in these discussions?


----------



## atlashunter

hobbs27 said:


> If you were God you wouldn't require faith,  but God does require faith which is in some sense belief without proof,  therefore you currently have no hope in the Christian God, because you stipulate you must have proof.
> 
> I can't give you proof,  I don't think anyone else can either,  so all I can do is offer you a good luck,  and hope that works out for you.
> 
> I do have one question , merely out of curiosity .  You and I both know,  the proof you require is probably not going to come to you via forum discussion,  so what are you seeking in these discussions?



Every god that doesn't exist requires faith. How interesting and some might say evil it would be for a real god to make themselves indistinguishable from nonexistent gods while also making the stakes so high that one must believe. Fortunately the Bible makes some claims we can put to the test. See John chapter 14 among others with regard to miracles and prayer. Turns out those claims are false. The Bible destroys it's own credibility. So what's more likely? A real god promises works that would remove any doubts but fails to deliver? Or the book making debunked claims is also making false claims of a god?


----------



## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> I am logical and require proof.





atlashunter said:


> Every god that doesn't exist requires faith. How interesting and some might say evil it would be for a real god to make themselves indistinguishable from nonexistent gods while also making the stakes so high that one must believe. Fortunately the Bible makes some claims we can put to the test. See John chapter 14 among others with regard to miracles and prayer. Turns out those claims are false. The Bible destroys it's own credibility. So what's more likely? A real god promises works that would remove any doubts but fails to deliver? Or the book making debunked claims is also making false claims of a god?



I'm not going to waste my time to research if all false gods require faith,  I'll take your word on it,  since I really have no interest in false gods. 

Your comment about the Bible destroying it's own credibility is just false. Jesus was speaking to his disciples in John 14...The Bible clearly shows in Acts His disciples did many great things... In His name. 

So your misinterpreting the meaning of scripture doesnt make scripture wrong,  it proves you haven't studied the book enough to make an educated opinion.  See the gifts of the spirit was for a time,  they received the gifts at Pentecost,  but those gifts have since ceased.


----------



## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> See the gifts of the spirit was for a time,  they received the gifts at Pentecost,  but those gifts have since ceased.


----------



## TripleXBullies

hobbs27 said:


> I'm not going to waste my time to research if all false gods require faith,  I'll take your word on it,  since I really have no interest in false gods.
> 
> 
> 
> So your misinterpreting the meaning of scripture doesnt make scripture wrong,  it proves you haven't studied the book enough to make an educated opinion.  See the gifts of the spirit was for a time,  they received the gifts at Pentecost,  but those gifts have since ceased.



I'm a Christian... first off.

You don't need to research anything to understand that. You can understand that for yourself.

Most of these guys are very EDUCATED on the bible.


----------



## WaltL1

hobbs27 said:


> I'm not going to waste my time to research if all false gods require faith,  I'll take your word on it,  since I really have no interest in false gods.
> 
> Your comment about the Bible destroying it's own credibility is just false. Jesus was speaking to his disciples in John 14...The Bible clearly shows in Acts His disciples did many great things... In His name.
> 
> So your misinterpreting the meaning of scripture doesnt make scripture wrong,  it proves you haven't studied the book enough to make an educated opinion.  See the gifts of the spirit was for a time,  they received the gifts at Pentecost,  but those gifts have since ceased.





> I'm not going to waste my time to research if all false gods require faith


Belief in ALL gods, including the one(s) you believe are true or false, requires faith.
FAITH
(1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof.


> Your comment about the Bible destroying it's own credibility is just false.


I would agree. The Bible is just a book. Its the men who wrote it who get the credit for that.
Unless of course you are satisfied with faith and not proof.


> So your misinterpreting the meaning of scripture doesnt make scripture wrong,  it proves you haven't studied the book enough to make an educated opinion.


Come on, get serious.
You are perfectly aware Biblical scholars, Christianity and Christians themselves who have studied the Bible for decades have differing "educated opinions" of what scriptures "really mean".
When do you figure one has studied enough? If/when their interpretation agrees with yours?


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> If you were God you wouldn't require faith,  but God does require faith which is in some sense belief without proof,  therefore you currently have no hope in the Christian God, because you stipulate you must have proof.
> 
> I can't give you proof,  I don't think anyone else can either,  so all I can do is offer you a good luck,  and hope that works out for you.
> 
> I do have one question , merely out of curiosity .  You and I both know,  the proof you require is probably not going to come to you via forum discussion,  so what are you seeking in these discussions?



You are telling me what a god requires and yet you have never met him.
You speak for a god that you cannot understand even if it was real.
You have to Presuppose that a god exists so that you can try to relate everyday occurrences to him.

I have discussed in detail why I visit here many times.
You are welcome to search for the fine details in previous posts but who better to ask about god than all of you special people that are chosen, elect, visited by the holy spirit, talk for god, think for god, have the same god experiences and are able to interpret the bible precisely as it is meant without disagreeing with each other  and all of you who make claims about the ultimate "TRUTH".!?
Each day I hope that one of you can actually provide something that backs up the claims you make. Why is it so hard to prove the truth?


----------



## hobbs27

WaltL1 said:


> Come on, get serious.
> You are perfectly aware Biblical scholars, Christianity and Christians themselves who have studied the Bible for decades have differing "educated opinions" of what scriptures "really mean".
> When do you figure one has studied enough? If/when their interpretation agrees with yours?



I am very serious. Yes,  Christians have varying educated opinions,  and I'm semi OK with that as long as they accept the Bible as truth.  When a person claims the Bible is not true, it's time for me to move on from the conversation,  there's nothing to talk about if it's all just imagination.  That's why I seldomly come in here.  I think it's a bit of a waste trying to explain the Biblical God to people that dont accept the Bible as true.


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> I am very serious. Yes,  Christians have varying educated opinions,  and I'm semi OK with that as long as they accept the Bible as truth.  When a person claims the Bible is not true, it's time for me to move on from the conversation,  there's nothing to talk about if it's all just imagination.  That's why I seldomly come in here.  I think it's a bit of a waste trying to explain the Biblical God to people that dont accept the Bible as true.



The bible is true when a person is able to ignore all of the untruths, inaccuracies, errors and contradictions.


----------



## Mexican Squealer

hobbs27 said:


> I am very serious. Yes,  Christians have varying educated opinions,  and I'm semi OK with that as long as they accept the Bible as truth.  When a person claims the Bible is not true, it's time for me to move on from the conversation,  there's nothing to talk about if it's all just imagination.  That's why I seldomly come in here.  I think it's a bit of a waste trying to explain the Biblical God to people that dont accept the Bible as true.



Sometimes its just easier to let God sort 'em out.  Got no desire to be a friend or anything else to an atheist.


----------



## WaltL1

Mexican Squealer said:


> Sometimes its just easier to let God sort 'em out.  Got no desire to be a friend or anything else to an atheist.


Aww our feewings are hurt 
By the way theres only one or two Atheists that frequent this forum.


----------



## atlashunter

hobbs27 said:


> I'm not going to waste my time to research if all false gods require faith,  I'll take your word on it,  since I really have no interest in false gods.
> 
> Your comment about the Bible destroying it's own credibility is just false. Jesus was speaking to his disciples in John 14...The Bible clearly shows in Acts His disciples did many great things... In His name.
> 
> So your misinterpreting the meaning of scripture doesnt make scripture wrong,  it proves you haven't studied the book enough to make an educated opinion.  See the gifts of the spirit was for a time,  they received the gifts at Pentecost,  but those gifts have since ceased.



What denomination are you a part of?


----------



## bullethead

Mexican Squealer said:


> Sometimes its just easier to let God sort 'em out.  Got no desire to be a friend or anything else to an atheist.



That did it! I BELIEVE!!


----------



## Mexican Squealer

bullethead said:


> That did it! I BELIEVE!!



Ha, another one "too smart" to have faith.


----------



## bullethead

Mexican Squealer said:


> Ha, another one "too smart" to have faith.



So you will converse with what you consider to be atheists just not be our friend...or anything else?


----------



## WaltL1

hobbs27 said:


> I am very serious. Yes,  Christians have varying educated opinions,  and I'm semi OK with that as long as they accept the Bible as truth.  When a person claims the Bible is not true, it's time for me to move on from the conversation,  there's nothing to talk about if it's all just imagination.  That's why I seldomly come in here.  I think it's a bit of a waste trying to explain the Biblical God to people that dont accept the Bible as true.





> I am very serious. Yes,  Christians have varying educated opinions,  and I'm semi OK with that as long as they accept the Bible as truth.


So it doesn't matter what a Christian thinks scripture says as long as they believe its true. That would certainly explain the 10s of thousands of denominations.


> When a person claims the Bible is not true, it's time for me to move on from the conversation


Why not just prove it to be true? That would probably shut them/us up pretty darn quick.


> there's nothing to talk about if it's all just imagination.


Sure there is. The evidence or lack there of shows that we do it in here every day.
Some also think that discussing/debating religion, which is a world wide phenomenon and a huge part of human history is worth discussing/debating whether its actually true or not.


> I think it's a bit of a waste trying to explain the Biblical God to people that dont accept the Bible as true


So don't try to explain it. Just provide them with the FACTS and back them up. If one rejects proven FACTS then there isn't much else you can do.


----------



## hobbs27

atlashunter said:


> What denomination are you a part of?



I'm not... And all the guys upstairs will back me on that.


----------



## atlashunter

hobbs27 said:


> I'm not going to waste my time to research if all false gods require faith,  I'll take your word on it,  since I really have no interest in false gods.
> 
> Your comment about the Bible destroying it's own credibility is just false. Jesus was speaking to his disciples in John 14...The Bible clearly shows in Acts His disciples did many great things... In His name.
> 
> So your misinterpreting the meaning of scripture doesnt make scripture wrong,  it proves you haven't studied the book enough to make an educated opinion.  See the gifts of the spirit was for a time,  they received the gifts at Pentecost,  but those gifts have since ceased.



John 14:12

King James Version

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

I don't see anything there that restricts it to the apostles. He says "he that believeth on me". Does that not extend to all christians? Does it not extend to you? If not, on what grounds? Let's see how this comports with other biblical claims about the power of prayer.

Matthew 7:7 “Ask, and it will be given to you seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

Matthew 21:22 And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.”

Mark 11:24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

John 14:13-14 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it

Now maybe I don't have the special powers of interpretation that you have but it seems pretty clear to me that the claim is that prayer has to achieve anything including miracles. In fact these scriptures declare it a certainty provided the person has faith in Christ.

That's a testable hypothesis that any true believer should be eager to demonstrate the truth of their belief. If for example you could use prayer to restore the amputated limbs of veterans wouldn't you do it at least for their sake if not to prove the truthfulness of your religion over others? Jesus is said to have stuck a severed ear back on a soldiers head. Why don't we see believers doing the same and greater works as the Bible says they can? You can try to interpret your way out of the conundrum but the fact of the matter is most christians believe prayer works. The atheist would expect prayer to your god to be no more successful than prayer to a milk jug. The lack of interest in believers to demonstrate the claimed powers of prayer is telling. It leads one to the conclusion that deep down they know they are just engaging in wish thinking.


----------



## atlashunter

hobbs27 said:


> I'm not... And all the guys upstairs will back me on that.



So you're a nondenominational Christian that believes the power of faith to produce miracles is a thing of the past? An odd duck indeed.


----------



## atlashunter

WaltL1 said:


> Belief in ALL gods, including the one(s) you believe are true or false, requires faith.
> FAITH
> (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof.
> 
> I would agree. The Bible is just a book. Its the men who wrote it who get the credit for that.
> Unless of course you are satisfied with faith and not proof.
> 
> Come on, get serious.
> You are perfectly aware Biblical scholars, Christianity and Christians themselves who have studied the Bible for decades have differing "educated opinions" of what scriptures "really mean".
> When do you figure one has studied enough? If/when their interpretation agrees with yours?



I love when christians tell us the Bible doesn't really mean what it says but what they tell is it meant to say while at the same time chastising us for our misinterpretation.


----------



## welderguy

atlashunter said:


> John 14:12
> 
> King James Version
> 
> Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
> 
> I don't see anything there that restricts it to the apostles. He says "he that believeth on me". Does that not extend to all christians? Does it not extend to you? If not, on what grounds? Let's see how this comports with other biblical claims about the power of prayer.
> 
> Matthew 7:7 “Ask, and it will be given to you seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
> 
> Matthew 21:22 And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.”
> 
> Mark 11:24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
> 
> John 14:13-14 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it
> 
> Now maybe I don't have the special powers of interpretation that you have but it seems pretty clear to me that the claim is that prayer has to achieve anything including miracles. In fact these scriptures declare it a certainty provided the person has faith in Christ.
> 
> That's a testable hypothesis that any true believer should be eager to demonstrate the truth of their belief. If for example you could use prayer to restore the amputated limbs of veterans wouldn't you do it at least for their sake if not to prove the truthfulness of your religion over others? Jesus is said to have stuck a severed ear back on a soldiers head. Why don't we see believers doing the same and greater works as the Bible says they can? You can try to interpret your way out of the conundrum but the fact of the matter is most christians believe prayer works. The atheist would expect prayer to your god to be no more successful than prayer to a milk jug. The lack of interest in believers to demonstrate the claimed powers of prayer is telling. It leads one to the conclusion that deep down they know they are just engaging in wish thinking.



It's always best to use the whole bible when attempting to interpret any certain verse. Some texts provide more insight than others, helping you to make a more accurate interpretation.

For example:1 John 5:14

14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:


The things we ask Him for must be according to His will. 
He doesn't give us all the candy and ice cream we can eat because it's not good for us. He gives the good stuff that makes us grow strong.


----------



## TripleXBullies

bullethead said:


> So you will converse with what you consider to be atheists just not be our friend...or anything else?



He said anything else.. but he's here conversing, making him acquaintances at the least. 

Y'all atheists and agnostics are DIRTY SINNERS (with every bit of sarcasm possible)!!!!


Jesus wasn't afraid to be around the non believers.....


----------



## TripleXBullies

atlashunter said:


> So you're a nondenominational Christian that believes the power of faith to produce miracles is a thing of the past? An odd duck indeed.



I go to a non-denominational church. I feel like that's really just for affiliation and name. Every non-denom church I've been to still has practice ties... For example, we don't lay hands on people expecting them to fall over, or handle snakes and drink poison. We do sometimes speak in tongues. I see those as examples of denominational practices while not having the label of any.


----------



## TripleXBullies

Mexican Squealer said:


> Sometimes its just easier to let God sort 'em out.  Got no desire to be a friend or anything else to an atheist.



I agree it's pretty much always easier to let God sort 'em out... so why do you post anything? You are a reader to an atheist post - desire to be or not, it has begun. Now becoming acquaintances with them through conversation.


----------



## hobbs27

atlashunter said:


> John 14:12
> 
> King James Version
> 
> Verily, verily, I say unto you He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
> 
> I don't see anything there that restricts it to the apostles. He says "he that believeth on me". Does that not extend to all christians? Does it not extend to you? If not, on what grounds? Let's see how this comports with other biblical claims about the power of prayer.
> 
> Matthew 7:7 “Ask, and it will be given to you seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
> 
> Matthew 21:22 And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.”
> 
> Mark 11:24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
> 
> John 14:13-14 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it
> 
> Now maybe I don't have the special powers of interpretation that you have but it seems pretty clear to me that the claim is that prayer has to achieve anything including miracles. In fact these scriptures declare it a certainty provided the person has faith in Christ.
> 
> That's a testable hypothesis that any true believer should be eager to demonstrate the truth of their belief. If for example you could use prayer to restore the amputated limbs of veterans wouldn't you do it at least for their sake if not to prove the truthfulness of your religion over others? Jesus is said to have stuck a severed ear back on a soldiers head. Why don't we see believers doing the same and greater works as the Bible says they can? You can try to interpret your way out of the conundrum but the fact of the matter is most christians believe prayer works. The atheist would expect prayer to your god to be no more successful than prayer to a milk jug. The lack of interest in believers to demonstrate the claimed powers of prayer is telling. It leads one to the conclusion that deep down they know they are just engaging in wish thinking.



 Jesus was not speaking to the reader thousands of years later.  He was speaking to His disciples,  so when He says,  you... It doesn't mean you the reader,  it means you the person He was speaking to.


----------



## atlashunter

welderguy said:


> It's always best to use the whole bible when attempting to interpret any certain verse. Some texts provide more insight than others, helping you to make a more accurate interpretation.
> 
> For example:1 John 5:14
> 
> 14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
> 
> 
> The things we ask Him for must be according to His will.
> He doesn't give us all the candy and ice cream we can eat because it's not good for us. He gives the good stuff that makes us grow strong.



That's a convenient out. The magic trick didn't work because it wasn't according to his will. I can get the same results praying to a milk jug by that standard. And I would just point out that the multiple passages I cited didn't include that caveat. Also very interesting that "his will" only seems to encompass those things which could have happened on their own but never those things which we would truly consider miraculous. Why is it sometimes it's in his will to heal granny of her flu but never in his will to regrow an amputated limb? Again we can get those same results praying to a milk jug. How is this outcome any different from what we would expect with a being that didn't exist at all?

I also notice that in discussing this topic you weren't quite so certain of your position.

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=839318&highlight=hobbs27+miracle

You didn't have a consensus on this topic there and yet you never threw out the accusation of misinterpretation. Why not?


----------



## atlashunter

hobbs27 said:


> Jesus was not speaking to the reader thousands of years later.  He was speaking to His disciples,  so when He says,  you... It doesn't mean you the reader,  it means you the person He was speaking to.



He said you because he was speaking to them. The scope of the promise was applied not exclusively to them but to "he that believeth". Is English your first language?

And as others in the thread I linked to pointed out the miracle works weren't limited to the apostles and you didn't contest that.


----------



## atlashunter

Riddle me this....

Why would miracles be justified to satisfy the disbelief of those who lived in the same time as Jesus but not those 2,000 years removed from that time?


----------



## hobbs27

atlashunter said:


> Riddle me this....
> 
> Why would miracles be justified to satisfy the disbelief of those who lived in the same time as Jesus but not those 2,000 years removed from that time?



Because the end of the Old covenant was at hand and Israel was about to be judged. 
The apostles were trying to draw as many faithful Jew's as they could into the church before Jerusalem would be destroyed in 70ad.

The gifts spoken of by the prophet Joel in the last days that began at Pentecost was a sign to those Jew's.. The seeing of the miracles and experiencing them was all old testament prophecy being fulfilled in front of their very eyes.


----------



## hobbs27

atlashunter said:


> He said you because he was speaking to them. The scope of the promise was applied not exclusively to them but to "he that believeth". Is English your first language?
> 
> And as others in the thread I linked to pointed out the miracle works weren't limited to the apostles and you didn't contest that.




Matthew 21:22 And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.”



Verily, verily, I say unto you He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Continuing with John 14 , it's obvious He is speaking about the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and that first century era.


----------



## atlashunter

hobbs27 said:


> Because the end of the Old covenant was at hand and Israel was about to be judged.
> The apostles were trying to draw as many faithful Jew's as they could into the church before Jerusalem would be destroyed in 70ad.
> 
> The gifts spoken of by the prophet Joel in the last days that began at Pentecost was a sign to those Jew's.. The seeing of the miracles and experiencing them was all old testament prophecy being fulfilled in front of their very eyes.



You guys discussed that too without consensus. Regardless, souls still hang in the balance with judgment in the future for the subsequent generations right? Is there no longer a goal to draw as many as possible into the church?


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> Jesus was not speaking to the reader thousands of years later.  He was speaking to His disciples,  so when He says,  you... It doesn't mean you the reader,  it means you the person He was speaking to.



Who was writing WHEN Jesus said anything?


----------



## hobbs27

atlashunter said:


> You guys discussed that too without consensus. Regardless, souls still hang in the balance with judgment in the future for the subsequent generations right? Is there no longer a goal to draw as many as possible into the church?



Yes,  The Spirit and the bride bids all to come!  Take of the water of life freely to whosoever will, but there's no pending judgment on the world. 

Ephesians 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.


----------



## atlashunter

hobbs27 said:


> Matthew 21:22 And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.”
> 
> 
> 
> Verily, verily, I say unto you He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
> 
> Continuing with John 14 , it's obvious He is speaking about the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and that first century era.



So he that believes and he that does works are two different parties? That would be poor wording at best and it wouldn't make any sense to state it in a way that doesn't make distinction as we see in other verses that discuss the holy spirit. It seems to me you're really grasping at straws here to avoid the obvious.


----------



## atlashunter

hobbs27 said:


> Yes,  The Spirit and the bride bids all to come!  Take of the water of life freely to whosoever will, but there's no pending judgment on the world.
> 
> Ephesians 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.



So once again it begs the question. Why the signs and wonders to maximize the harvest then but not now?


----------



## TripleXBullies

atlashunter said:


> So once again it begs the question. Why the signs and wonders to maximize the harvest then but not now?



I experienced what I consider a sign of wonder. I let myself believe in God again. I believe that the signs of wonder correspond with the work of the devil. In the US at least, Satan is at work in intellectual ways moreso than he might have been in biblical times. The signs of wonder are different. I received one. The signs of wonder in biblical times didn't immediately convert everyone who saw or heard of them either.


----------



## hobbs27

atlashunter said:


> So once again it begs the question. Why the signs and wonders to maximize the harvest then but not now?



 Because they were about to come under judgment.


----------



## atlashunter

TripleXBullies said:


> I experienced what I consider a sign of wonder. I let myself believe in God again. I believe that the signs of wonder correspond with the work of the devil. In the US at least, Satan is at work in intellectual ways moreso than he might have been in biblical times. The signs of wonder are different. I received one. The signs of wonder in biblical times didn't immediately convert everyone who saw or heard of them either.



You changed your mind and people do that all the times for all sorts of religions. Nothing miraculous about that. Personal testimony just doesn't amount to much given the many conflicting testimonies. We need a way to sort the wheat from the chaff. My suspicion is that it's all chaff given there is always an excuse as to why the ways that it could be demonstrated in an independently verifiable way fail to do so.


----------



## bullethead

atlashunter said:


> So once again it begs the question. Why the signs and wonders to maximize the harvest then but not now?



Technology.
Miracles, dragons, witches, vampires,  etc all disappeared when devices to record them became available.


----------



## j_seph

TripleXBullies said:


> *I'm a Christian... first off.*
> 
> You don't need to research anything to understand that. You can understand that for yourself.
> 
> Most of these guys are very EDUCATED on the bible.


2nd best post in this thread IMO, 1st one would be post #7 in this thread


----------



## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> Technology.
> Miracles, dragons, witches, vampires,  etc all disappeared when devices to record them became available.



What technology are you speaking of that came at the close of the first century?


----------



## atlashunter

hobbs27 said:


> Because they were about to come under judgment.



And the current generation isn't? People are dying every day.


----------



## atlashunter

hobbs27 said:


> What technology are you speaking of that came at the close of the first century?



You're the one making the claim that claims of those ended after the first century.


----------



## TripleXBullies

atlashunter said:


> You changed your mind and people do that all the times for all sorts of religions. Nothing miraculous about that. Personal testimony just doesn't amount to much given the many conflicting testimonies. We need a way to sort the wheat from the chaff. My suspicion is that it's all chaff given there is always an excuse as to why the ways that it could be demonstrated in an independently verifiable way fail to do so.



The biggest point of this thread was that I was in a position very similar to yours. What if you changed your mind. Just consider the possibility. Would you call that a miracle? I completely understand that my personal testimony doesn't amount to a miracle to you. I would never try to convince you that it should. What I ask is if it happened to you, would you consider it miraculous?


----------



## atlashunter

TripleXBullies said:


> I go to a non-denominational church. I feel like that's really just for affiliation and name. Every non-denom church I've been to still has practice ties... For example, we don't lay hands on people expecting them to fall over, or handle snakes and drink poison. We do sometimes speak in tongues. I see those as examples of denominational practices while not having the label of any.



According to the other thread hobbs attends a church that lays hands on people and prays for healing. I would guess yours probably does too. I would also presume this is done because of a belief that it improves ones chances of recovery. That is something that could be studied for it's effectiveness.


----------



## atlashunter

TripleXBullies said:


> The biggest point of this thread was that I was in a position very similar to yours. What if you changed your mind. Just consider the possibility. Would you call that a miracle? I completely understand that my personal testimony doesn't amount to a miracle to you. I would never try to convince you that it should. What I ask is if it happened to you, would you consider it miraculous?



No I wouldn't consider it a miracle any more than it was a miracle that I no longer believe what I was raised from childhood to believe. If I was closed off to changing my mind I never would have become an atheist.


----------



## WaltL1

TripleXBullies said:


> The biggest point of this thread was that I was in a position very similar to yours. What if you changed your mind. Just consider the possibility. Would you call that a miracle? I completely understand that my personal testimony doesn't amount to a miracle to you. I would never try to convince you that it should. What I ask is if it happened to you, would you consider it miraculous?


No. I personally would call it changing my mind. 
While belief in a god is not logical etc, you still cant "prove" that there isn't and because it cant be proven that there is, that leaves a lot of leeway for a person to change their mind either way if they want to or feel the need to.
Now if Jesus and his donkey strolled into Waffle House while I was eating breakfast, sat down and both started talking to me then I would start leaning toward miraculous as opposed to just changing my mind.


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> What technology are you speaking of that came at the close of the first century?



No tech needed then. That group of writers died off and the new writers went on to something else.

The claims never stop to this day, but instead of "500 witnesses"who never mentioned it outside of the bible we have cell phones with cameras that are everywhere. The more popular recording devices got the more elusive miracles and monsters became.


----------



## hobbs27

atlashunter said:


> And the current generation isn't? People are dying every day.



No.  The current generation is not. People dying everyday is God's natural order of this world,  it's been happening since the first animals.


----------



## bullethead

TripleXBullies said:


> The biggest point of this thread was that I was in a position very similar to yours. What if you changed your mind. Just consider the possibility. Would you call that a miracle? I completely understand that my personal testimony doesn't amount to a miracle to you. I would never try to convince you that it should. What I ask is if it happened to you, would you consider it miraculous?


It wasn't a miracle when I believed from a young age, it was normal, expected, common.

I never liked Liver or peas, now I do. Tastes change and so do needs, companions, and experiences.


----------



## bullethead

What of the "miracles"that are performed by modern people to elevate them to sainthood?

Pope John Paul II
A French nun’s recovery from Parkinson’s disease after praying for the late Pope’s ‘intercession’ in 2005
A Costa Rican woman’s recovery from a severe brain aneurysm after she had been looking at the pope’s photograph on the cover of a magazine. Lo and behold, he appeared to her in a vision and she was suddenly well.


----------



## atlashunter

hobbs27 said:


> No.  The current generation is not. People dying everyday is God's natural order of this world,  it's been happening since the first animals.



And they won't face judgment after death that will determine their eternal destination?


----------



## hobbs27

atlashunter said:


> And they won't face judgment after death that will determine their eternal destination?



No,  that's determined while they are alive.


----------



## red neck richie

WaltL1 said:


> So it doesn't matter what a Christian thinks scripture says as long as they believe its true. That would certainly explain the 10s of thousands of denominations.
> 
> Why not just prove it to be true? That would probably shut them/us up pretty darn quick.
> 
> Sure there is. The evidence or lack there of shows that we do it in here every day.
> Some also think that discussing/debating religion, which is a world wide phenomenon and a huge part of human history is worth discussing/debating whether its actually true or not.
> 
> So don't try to explain it. Just provide them with the FACTS and back them up. If one rejects proven FACTS then there isn't much else you can do.



There are no denominations in heaven. So what you show up at the pearly gates and St. Peter is saying Baptist to the right Methodist to the left Seventh Day Adventist down the street. Denominations are of man not of God. When people ask me what religion are you I answer Christian.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> There are no denominations in heaven. So what you show up at the pearly gates and St. Peter is saying Baptist to the right Methodist to the left Seventh Day Adventist down the street. Denominations are of man not of God. When people ask me what religion are you I answer Christian.



But are only Christians getting in?


----------



## atlashunter

hobbs27 said:


> No,  that's determined while they are alive.



You're dodging. Souls hang in the balance now just as they did then according to believers. So you still havent come up with a sensible answer. That said, even absent miracles any effectiveness of prayer would be testable.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> But are only Christians getting in?



Its not up to me, Its up to God. How's your relationship?


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Its not up to me, Its up to God. How's your relationship?


Now wait a second, you are telling us how heaven is run in one post and in the next breath you don't know nuthin...


My wife and I have been together since 1985 when I was 15yrs old. My relationship is very good. Thanks for asking.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Its not up to me, Its up to God. How's your relationship?



Compared to what some supposed christians admitted to in here and compared to many of the "believers" that I know....I am a shoe in for whichever god judges a person by character and actions .


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Now wait a second, you are telling us how heaven is run in one post and in the next breath you don't know nuthin...
> 
> 
> My wife and I have been together since 1985 when I was 15yrs old. My relationship is very good. Thanks for asking.



No I have no idea how heaven is run but it seems logical to me that you don't get in based off Denomination. I am happy your wife is like mine and they puts up with us. I got married in 89 so that's true love right there. You know that's not the relationship I speak of.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> No I have no idea how heaven is run but it seems logical to me that you don't get in based off Denomination. I am happy your wife is like mine and they puts up with us. I got married in 89 so that's true love right there. You know that's not the relationship I speak of.


Oh, logic....

I also was married in '89 

Is it logical that the jews get in?
Mormons?
Islamists?


----------



## Mexican Squealer

bullethead said:


> Oh, logic....
> 
> I also was married in '89
> 
> Is it logical that the jews get in?
> Mormons?
> Islamists?



Is your wife an atheist too?


----------



## bullethead

Mexican Squealer said:


> Is your wife an atheist too?



You REALLY need to catch up in order to play in this sandbox.
I am not an atheist. Wife is not an atheist. 2/3Sons graduated from a catholic HS and one of those Sons taught for 2 years at a catholic school. 



But I do appreciate you talking to me so that I am able to be a part of your life. You really changed your hard core mantra in just a few posts.


----------



## hobbs27

atlashunter said:


> You're dodging. Souls hang in the balance now just as they did then according to believers. So you still havent come up with a sensible answer. That said, even absent miracles any effectiveness of prayer would be testable.



Souls hang in the balance of what?  

The calling of Jew's into the church in the first century wasn't because their souls hung in some sort of balance,  it was Christ making His bride for the consummation of the wedding.  It was her purification process. 

 It was sifting the wheat from the tares.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Oh, logic....
> 
> I also was married in '89
> 
> Is it logical that the jews get in?
> Mormons?
> Islamists?



So many questions such little trust?


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> So many questions such little trust?



They all believe in the same god but go about it differently.
I trust me.


----------



## WaltL1

red neck richie said:


> There are no denominations in heaven. So what you show up at the pearly gates and St. Peter is saying Baptist to the right Methodist to the left Seventh Day Adventist down the street. Denominations are of man not of God. When people ask me what religion are you I answer Christian.





> There are no denominations in heaven.


I'll have to take your word for it. Ive never been there and I don't know anybody who has that I can ask.


> Denominations are of man not of God


I agree 100%.


> When people ask me what religion are you I answer Christian.


I think that's a good answer. However that covers a wide variety of differing beliefs.


----------



## WaltL1

bullethead said:


> You REALLY need to catch up in order to play in this sandbox.
> I am not an atheist. Wife is not an atheist. 2/3Sons graduated from a catholic HS and one of those Sons taught for 2 years at a catholic school.
> 
> 
> 
> But I do appreciate you talking to me so that I am able to be a part of your life. You really changed your hard core mantra in just a few posts.





> I am not an atheist. Wife is not an atheist. 2/3Sons graduated from a catholic HS and one of those Sons taught for 2 years at a catholic school.


Sometimes I wish I could see the reaction Christians have when you tell them this. This is what I picture them doing -


----------



## WaltL1

bullethead said:


> Now wait a second, you are telling us how heaven is run in one post and in the next breath you don't know nuthin...
> 
> 
> My wife and I have been together since 1985 when I was 15yrs old. My relationship is very good. Thanks for asking.


That was pretty darn funny


----------



## atlashunter

hobbs27 said:


> Souls hang in the balance of what?
> 
> The calling of Jew's into the church in the first century wasn't because their souls hung in some sort of balance,  it was Christ making His bride for the consummation of the wedding.  It was her purification process.
> 
> It was sifting the wheat from the tares.



White noise. The most central tenet of Christianity is that one must believe in Jesus to be saved from eternal fire. If it was so important to believe both then and now then if miracles were warranted then they would also be warranted now. And most believers even today are not "cessationists" as you call it. They still believe prayer works and the Bible promises it will without all the caveats that you've added. Back to the original point, the effectiveness of prayer can be examined nd put to the test. Any Christian that genuinely believes these claims are true should be eager to show the world if it really is true. Yet they aren't. Their actions say far more than their words. I think many want it to be true while knowing the evidence just isn't there. That also explains why you went searching for an explanation of the missing evidence that we should be seeing if the scriptures were true.


----------



## hobbs27

atlashunter said:


> White noise. The most central tenet of Christianity is that one must believe in Jesus to be saved from eternal fire.



 Really?  Wow,  that being the most central tenet of Christianity,  Peter,  Paul,  and John must have wrote extensively about that in the Epistles... You mind showing us where?   While you're at it,  see if you can find where Jesus ever said that,  being careful to analyze the true Greek meaning of the words translated as he11...cause I studied this doctrine extensively and have never found it to be biblical. 



> If it was so important to believe both then and now then if miracles were warranted then they would also be warranted now. And most believers even today are not "cessationists" as you call it. They still believe prayer works and the Bible promises it will without all the caveats that you've added. Back to the original point, the effectiveness of prayer can be examined nd put to the test. Any Christian that genuinely believes these claims are true should be eager to show the world if it really is true. Yet they aren't. Their actions say far more than their words. I think many want it to be true while knowing the evidence just isn't there. That also explains why you went searching for an explanation of the missing evidence that we should be seeing if the scriptures were true.




1 Corinthians 13:8-10New King James Version (NKJV)

8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

It ceased at the consummation of the ages.  Remember the first century Christians were living in the last days.  John even said at one point they were in the last hours.  The Old covenant was about to vanish at the time the epistles were being written.   Hebrews 8:13

I'm sorry that what you've been taught about the Bible isn't so.Dont blame the Bible on false teachings. 

In John 3:16 Jesus doesn't say you are hanging in the balance of heaven and he11. He says faith gives eternal life,  otherwise you perish.  To perish is not to live forever and burn. 

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.


----------



## WaltL1

welderguy said:


> It's always best to use the whole bible when attempting to interpret any certain verse. Some texts provide more insight than others, helping you to make a more accurate interpretation.
> 
> For example:1 John 5:14
> 
> 14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
> 
> 
> The things we ask Him for must be according to His will.
> He doesn't give us all the candy and ice cream we can eat because it's not good for us. He gives the good stuff that makes us grow strong.





> Some texts provide more insight than others, helping you to make a more accurate interpretation


More accurate than what?
More accurate than completely wrong?
More accurate than close but no cigar?
More accurate than sorta kinda?
And how do you judge accuracy? Are the correct answers in the back of the book so you can grade yourself?
You guys upstairs are constantly debating the meaning of this scripture or that scripture. Why don't you just tell them who is accurate and who is not and save a lot of bandwith?


----------



## Mexican Squealer

bullethead said:


> You REALLY need to catch up in order to play in this sandbox.
> I am not an atheist. Wife is not an atheist. 2/3Sons graduated from a catholic HS and one of those Sons taught for 2 years at a catholic school.
> 
> 
> 
> But I do appreciate you talking to me so that I am able to be a part of your life. You really changed your hard core mantra in just a few posts.



My bad, sorry about that.


----------



## atlashunter

Hobbs you're still dodging.  Your own church lays hands on people and prays for healing. Why? I'm also betting your own church doctrine holds that Jesus is the only way to be saved. Maybe I should start a poll on the Christian forum and see just how many of your fellow brethren share your belief that being saved through Jesus is not biblical. Then you can tell them all about how they are part of this false teaching as you call it.


----------



## welderguy

WaltL1 said:


> More accurate than what?
> More accurate than completely wrong?
> More accurate than close but no cigar?
> More accurate than sorta kinda?
> And how do you judge accuracy? Are the correct answers in the back of the book so you can grade yourself?
> You guys upstairs are constantly debating the meaning of this scripture or that scripture. Why don't you just tell them who is accurate and who is not and save a lot of bandwith?



Basically my point was to not cherry pick the verses you like and leave out others that give additional clues supporting the text. (Like the example I gave Atlas).

You must start by knowing the Bible is true and infallible, with no contradictions. Then you look at the WHOLE of the Bible to piece together the whole truth. It gives clues, sometimes subtily, that must fit with ALL the other , more obvious, clues.
It's like a puzzle, but sometimes we are guilty of hammering in a piece where it doesn't fit, then wondering why we are missing a piece. And more importantly, why the picture doesn't look right. It's tedious sometimes , but a very worthwhile cause.


----------



## hobbs27

atlashunter said:


> Hobbs you're still dodging.  Your own church lays hands on people and prays for healing. Why? I'm also betting your own church doctrine holds that Jesus is the only way to be saved. Maybe I should start a poll on the Christian forum and see just how many of your fellow brethren share your belief that being saved through Jesus is not biblical. Then you can tell them all about how they are part of this false teaching as you call it.




 I haven't participated in organized religion for quiet some time. The last church I went to did lay hands,  and annoint with oil.  They also refused to answer controversial questions or discuss why some things they practiced weren't biblical.  Instead of disrupting their organization,  I left,  and now I study on my own and with folks of like mind online. 

Jesus is the only way. I don't know what you think Im dodging.


----------



## TripleXBullies

atlashunter said:


> According to the other thread hobbs attends a church that lays hands on people and prays for healing. I would guess yours probably does too. I would also presume this is done because of a belief that it improves ones chances of recovery. That is something that could be studied for it's effectiveness.



Yes. And I agree.


----------



## atlashunter

That's also your opinion that to burn forever is not to perish. A minority opinion among christians and one contrary to the teachings of the church for most of its history. Maybe you're one of those trying to soften the message because it makes God look like a jerk. I know a lot that don't focus as much on the hot place as they used to. Regardless of how you define the term the point remains that the eternal future of these people hangs in the balance. That's not my belief. That's what christians claim. And like I said before we can put the whole miracle thing aside and just look at the effectiveness of prayer and should still see evidence for it if the claims made about prayer are true. When you have to lower the bar so much for your god that someone may as well be praying to any god or even an inanimate object, that tells us something.


----------



## TripleXBullies

atlashunter said:


> No I wouldn't consider it a miracle any more than it was a miracle that I no longer believe what I was raised from childhood to believe. If I was closed off to changing my mind I never would have become an atheist.



I wasn't closed off to changing my mind but I definitely never thought I'd come to where I am now. I consider it a miracle.


----------



## atlashunter

hobbs27 said:


> I haven't participated in organized religion for quiet some time. The last church I went to did lay hands,  and annoint with oil.  They also refused to answer controversial questions or discuss why some things they practiced weren't biblical.  Instead of disrupting their organization,  I left,  and now I study on my own and with folks of like mind online.
> 
> Jesus is the only way. I don't know what you think Im dodging.



Ok well at least you have the courage of your convictions. I can respect that. I'll take this as acknowledgment that your interpretation is very much in the minority. Not saying who is right or wrong, I'm simply talking about mainstream Christian doctrine.


----------



## welderguy

atlashunter said:


> That's a convenient out. The magic trick didn't work because it wasn't according to his will. I can get the same results praying to a milk jug by that standard. And I would just point out that the multiple passages I cited didn't include that caveat. Also very interesting that "his will" only seems to encompass those things which could have happened on their own but never those things which we would truly consider miraculous. Why is it sometimes it's in his will to heal granny of her flu but never in his will to regrow an amputated limb? Again we can get those same results praying to a milk jug. How is this outcome any different from what we would expect with a being that didn't exist at all?
> 
> I also notice that in discussing this topic you weren't quite so certain of your position.
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=839318&highlight=hobbs27+miracle
> 
> You didn't have a consensus on this topic there and yet you never threw out the accusation of misinterpretation. Why not?



I didn't participate in the linked thread, but I can't remember why(it was 2 years ago), but it was not because a lack of a consensus, I assure you.

I believe all healing is Divine healing. God designed our bodies to fight disease constantly and build immunities. That's Divinely orchestrated, if you ask me. He uses doctors, and He uses drugs, and He can just let the body heal itself. It's all Divine healing.


----------



## atlashunter

TripleXBullies said:


> I wasn't closed off to changing my mind but I definitely never thought I'd come to where I am now. I consider it a miracle.



I guess it depends how you define the term. People change their minds all the time for all sorts of reasons. I can't speak to yours. Maybe it is improbable you would change yours but by your own admission not impossible. That's not a miracle in my book.


----------



## ambush80

Triple X,

I'm curious about speaking in tongues.  Would you tell me what you know about it?


----------



## TripleXBullies

hobbs27 said:


> I haven't participated in organized religion for quiet some time. The last church I went to did lay hands,  and annoint with oil.  They also refused to answer controversial questions or discuss why some things they practiced weren't biblical.  Instead of disrupting their organization,  I left,  and now I study on my own and with folks of like mind online.
> 
> Jesus is the only way. I don't know what you think Im dodging.



I'm not saying you're wrong... but it is interesting... This big group has it wrong, a lot of big groups have it wrong... so I'm going to be part of my own group that does things the way that I think the bible says.


----------



## TripleXBullies

atlashunter said:


> I guess it depends how you define the term. People change their minds all the time for all sorts of reasons. I can't speak to yours. Maybe it is improbable you would change yours but by your own admission not impossible. That's not a miracle in my book.



I never thought I'd change my mind to where I am now. Change my mind to the FSM was more likely. In any event - fair enough.


----------



## TripleXBullies

ambush80 said:


> Triple X,
> 
> I'm curious about speaking in tongues.  Would you tell me what you know about it?



I always felt that it was really dumb... having grown up baptist. Any time I heard it I cringed and how stupid the person seemed to me. Maybe driven by that guy that used to be on TV that for some reason I think he was exposed as a phony - maybe not. 

My current church doesn't do it widely or all the time but the pastors who I have a lot of respect for do. Not normally in front of the church but they do it. I was with one of them and a few other people and he explained it to me that it's not about being a puppet. God doesn't stick his fingers in your jaws and squeeze your lungs to make air come out. 



It's Romans 8:26. In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 

I have NO expectation that the reference should convince you of anything, that's just what our conversation was based on. "Wordless groans." I'm sure you can google several other translations. When I let myself I went in to an expected mental state. Maybe you could call it a deep state of meditation like a shaman might. The words/sounds didn't matter specifically although I don't think I would have gotten to the state without something coming out of my mouth. That seemed to be a vital part of the process. I was deeply moved in a way I had never experienced. Yes, I attribute it to God. No I didn't give any other kind of a god much consideration but as you can see, I'm relating the experience to other things.

I was VERY surprised by that event.


----------



## WaltL1

welderguy said:


> Basically my point was to not cherry pick the verses you like and leave out others that give additional clues supporting the text. (Like the example I gave Atlas).
> 
> You must start by knowing the Bible is true and infallible, with no contradictions. Then you look at the WHOLE of the Bible to piece together the whole truth. It gives clues, sometimes subtily, that must fit with ALL the other , more obvious, clues.
> It's like a puzzle, but sometimes we are guilty of hammering in a piece where it doesn't fit, then wondering why we are missing a piece. And more importantly, why the picture doesn't look right. It's tedious sometimes , but a very worthwhile cause.





> Basically my point was to not cherry pick the verses you like and leave out others that give additional clues supporting the text. (Like the example I gave Atlas).


I understood your point completely. I didn't spend all those Saturdays and Sundays in church without cracking open a  Bible.


> You must start by knowing the Bible is true and infallible,


I think you mean believe the Bible is true and infallible.


> It's like a puzzle, but sometimes we are guilty of hammering in a piece where it doesn't fit, then wondering why we are missing a piece. And more importantly, why the picture doesn't look right. It's tedious sometimes , but a very worthwhile cause.


Heres what you are not getting.
YOU are judging whether it fits or not.
YOU are judging "whether the picture looks right".
So I ask again (maybe you missed it?) -


> So how do you judge accuracy? Are the correct answers in the back of the book so you can grade yourself?


I know you don't realize it but you are reinforcing my point. 
YOU (and everyone else) interpret scriptures so it "fits right" to YOU. So it "looks right" to YOU.
That's why there is so much debate of the meaning of scripture. What fits and looks right to you doesn't fit and look right to someone else and vice versa.

Sure would have been a lot easier when God sat down and wrote (transmitted to the various author's brains) the Bible he said to himself "I better write this in such a simple way that EVERYBODY gets it otherwise they will come up with some wacky interpretations on their own. And I know they will.............."

And so you don't accidently miss it a 3rd time -


> So how do you judge accuracy? Are the correct answers in the back of the book so you can grade yourself?


----------



## hobbs27

TripleXBullies said:


> I'm not saying you're wrong... but it is interesting... This big group has it wrong, a lot of big groups have it wrong... so I'm going to be part of my own group that does things the way that I think the bible says.



It's a big group,  but divided into many many small groups.  I enjoy worshipping with fellow believers,  the thing that bothers me is when in Bible study,  if a question comes up the answer has to fit the denominational doctrine.. And most people in a certain denomination cannot biblically defend their position,  so they say,  don't worry about it,  or,  it makes no difference. They turn a blind eye to some scripture.  I've even heard some men that are so set on what their church teaches that they take their churches word over scripture and openly say scripture is wrong or has contradictions.


----------



## WaltL1

TripleXBullies said:


> I'm not saying you're wrong... but it is interesting... This big group has it wrong, a lot of big groups have it wrong... so I'm going to be part of my own group that does things the way that I think the bible says.


Actually that's a pretty standard MO and always has been.
That's exactly how there got be 10s of thousands of denominations.
If hobbs and his like minded believers ever decide to give themselves a name, then there would be 10s of thousands and 1 denominations.


----------



## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> I always felt that it was really dumb... having grown up baptist. Any time I heard it I cringed and how stupid the person seemed to me. Maybe driven by that guy that used to be on TV that for some reason I think he was exposed as a phony - maybe not.
> 
> My current church doesn't do it widely or all the time but the pastors who I have a lot of respect for do. Not normally in front of the church but they do it. I was with one of them and a few other people and he explained it to me that it's not about being a puppet. God doesn't stick his fingers in your jaws and squeeze your lungs to make air come out.
> 
> 
> 
> It's Romans 8:26. In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans.
> 
> I have NO expectation that the reference should convince you of anything, that's just what our conversation was based on. "Wordless groans." I'm sure you can google several other translations. When I let myself I went in to an expected mental state. Maybe you could call it a deep state of meditation like a shaman might. The words/sounds didn't matter specifically although I don't think I would have gotten to the state without something coming out of my mouth. That seemed to be a vital part of the process. I was deeply moved in a way I had never experienced. Yes, I attribute it to God. No I didn't give any other kind of a god much consideration but as you can see, I'm relating the experience to other things.
> 
> I was VERY surprised by that event.



Do you believe that when a Shaman or Voodoo practitioner experiences similar wordless groanings that they are being moved by their God(s)?


----------



## atlashunter

TripleXBullies said:


> I have NO expectation that the reference should convince you of anything, that's just what our conversation was based on. "Wordless groans." I'm sure you can google several other translations. When I let myself I went in to an expected mental state. Maybe you could call it a deep state of meditation like a shaman might. The words/sounds didn't matter specifically although I don't think I would have gotten to the state without something coming out of my mouth. That seemed to be a vital part of the process. I was deeply moved in a way I had never experienced. Yes, I attribute it to God. No I didn't give any other kind of a god much consideration but as you can see, I'm relating the experience to other things.
> 
> I was VERY surprised by that event.



Nondenominational church? Is this the same kind of church you attended when you were younger?


----------



## j_seph

Atlas, if someone prayed for an amputee to be given his arm back and it miraculously appeared or grew back would you then believe?

OR

Would it be like a magic show and you would say it was a trick, he ain't a fooling you?

Folks seen Jesus' works when he walked this world and still did not believe


----------



## atlashunter

j_seph said:


> Atlas, if someone prayed for an amputee to be given his arm back and it miraculously appeared or grew back would you then believe?
> 
> OR
> 
> Would it be like a magic show and you would say it was a trick, he ain't a fooling you?
> 
> Folks seen Jesus' works when he walked this world and still did not believe



It would definitely get my attention. Let me pose the same question to you. If someone prayed to Zeus for an amputee and their limb was restored would that convince you Zeus was real? I would say if prayer was as reliably effective as the Bible suggests it should be, and it was only effective when the prayer was made to a particular god I would be inclined to believe the source of those claims had some credibility.


----------



## bullethead

j_seph said:


> Atlas, if someone prayed for an amputee to be given his arm back and it miraculously appeared or grew back would you then believe?
> 
> OR
> 
> Would it be like a magic show and you would say it was a trick, he ain't a fooling you?
> 
> Folks seen Jesus' works when he walked this world and still did not believe



Jseph, you claim all those folks saw jesus and didnt believe but surely some had to see him and believe. Why didnt ANY of them write it down? Why did it take 30-100 years for anyone to write anything that Jesus did down?

It is as if if he never really did anything spectacular when he was doing things.


----------



## TripleXBullies

WaltL1 said:


> Actually that's a pretty standard MO and always has been.
> That's exactly how there got be 10s of thousands of denominations.
> If hobbs and his like minded believers ever decide to give themselves a name, then there would be 10s of thousands and 1 denominations.




I know that


----------



## TripleXBullies

atlashunter said:


> Nondenominational church? Is this the same kind of church you attended when you were younger?



No. I went to baptist churches as a kid and teenager.


----------



## welderguy

WaltL1 said:


> More accurate than what?
> More accurate than completely wrong?
> More accurate than close but no cigar?
> More accurate than sorta kinda?
> And how do you judge accuracy? Are the correct answers in the back of the book so you can grade yourself?
> You guys upstairs are constantly debating the meaning of this scripture or that scripture. Why don't you just tell them who is accurate and who is not and save a lot of bandwith?



It's precept upon precept.
Meaning, the accuracy of one precept is guaged by all other precepts. They cannot contradict one another. We constantly point out contradictions we may see in each other's view, not to be mean or argumentative (hopefully), but to sharpen each other's iron.(hopefully)

The deeper you study, the more it becomes like a microscope instead of a telescope.


----------



## TripleXBullies

ambush80 said:


> Do you believe that when a Shaman or Voodoo practitioner experiences similar wordless groanings that they are being moved by their God(s)?



I used that as an example I knew you'd understand. I believe that is what they're going for at least but of course I say no because I don't believe that their gods exist. I believe that I am not wrong about that.


----------



## atlashunter

TripleXBullies said:


> No. I went to baptist churches as a kid and teenager.



That may be part of why it surprised you. I was raised in pentecostal, assembly of god, and non-denominational evangelical churches. What you describe as being "moved" happened all the time. It happened to me. If you watch Jesus Camp you see it there. If you watch Marjoe you see it there. I don't doubt the sincerity of those who profess to the experience. It certainly seems real to them.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> It's precept upon precept.
> Meaning, the accuracy of one precept is guaged by all other precepts. They cannot contradict one another. We constantly point out contradictions we may see in each other's view, not to be mean or argumentative (hopefully), but to sharpen each other's iron.(hopefully)
> 
> The deeper you study, the more it becomes like a microscope instead of a telescope.



I got the complete opposite effect.


----------



## atlashunter

welderguy said:


> It's precept upon precept.
> Meaning, the accuracy of one precept is guaged by all other precepts. They cannot contradict one another. We constantly point out contradictions we may see in each other's view, not to be mean or argumentative (hopefully), but to sharpen each other's iron.(hopefully)
> 
> The deeper you study, the more it becomes like a microscope instead of a telescope.



If you can point out their contradictions and they can point out yours maybe it's because you are both wrong. I think what Walt is getting at is do you have a method to test the truth claims of your beliefs? Are your beliefs falsifiable? What are you doing to avoid confirmation bias?


----------



## j_seph

Atlahunter, please give a testimony as to when where how and why you once believed(I presume) but now you do not. I am curious, if ya cannot post or do not want please pm me. Thank you


----------



## TripleXBullies

atlashunter said:


> That may be part of why it surprised you. I was raised in pentecostal, assembly of god, and non-denominational evangelical churches. What you describe as being "moved" happened all the time. It happened to me. If you watch Jesus Camp you see it there. If you watch Marjoe you see it there. I don't doubt the sincerity of those who profess to the experience. It certainly seems real to them.



I don't know if feeling "moved" is the right way to describe it. I used to be moved to try harder or I'd feel on fire as it was normally termed. This wasn't like that. I felt like I had made some deep connection that I hadn't ever done before.  I took it less emotionally than the other.


----------



## WaltL1

welderguy said:


> It's precept upon precept.
> Meaning, the accuracy of one precept is guaged by all other precepts. They cannot contradict one another. We constantly point out contradictions we may see in each other's view, not to be mean or argumentative (hopefully), but to sharpen each other's iron.(hopefully)
> 
> The deeper you study, the more it becomes like a microscope instead of a telescope.


Your iron sharpens iron theory I'm sure sounds all warm and fuzzy to you BUT have you considered -
If you are debating with someone who has a more accurate interpretation than you do and you are able to convince them to see it your way, did you sharpen his iron or dull it?

And don't forget -


> And how do you judge accuracy? Are the correct answers in the back of the book so you can grade yourself?


----------



## atlashunter

TripleXBullies said:


> I don't know if feeling "moved" is the right way to describe it. I used to be moved to try harder or I'd feel on fire as it was normally termed. This wasn't like that. I felt like I had made some deep connection that I hadn't ever done before.  I took it less emotionally than the other.



Don't know what you experienced. The point is I suspect others would say the same and to them it's very much real. What does it really amount to? I used to think quite a bit. Actually back when I still believed but was having doubts about all of the things that didn't make sense I would retreat to personal experience. Nobody can deny what I felt! What I experienced! That is the one thing others can't refute. For a long time I believed that made my position strong. Eventually I realized if that was what I had to retreat to then that was testimony to how weak my foundation for belief really was.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Jseph, you claim all those folks saw jesus and didnt believe but surely some had to see him and believe. Why didnt ANY of them write it down? Why did it take 30-100 years for anyone to write anything that Jesus did down?
> 
> It is as if if he never really did anything spectacular when he was doing things.



Keep in mind the literacy rate wasn't very high back then. In fact usually reserved for the wealthy.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Keep in mind the literacy rate wasn't very high back then. In fact usually reserved for the wealthy.



Yes, yes I know that.
So why write these things for people who cannot read?

But back to my first point, 
The stories would have us believe that Jesus was going around raising the dead, healing the sick, feeding the masses, turning water to wine, walking on water and ascending skyward...
The stories say these things were witnessed by 500 people at times...
Now, it would stand to reason that a few educated people were among these witnesses.
Jew, Gentile, priest, follower, hater, middle of the road or not when a guy pulls off those types of deeds SOMEONE IS going to record it in some way.
The silence during Jesus 3 years of miracles is deafening!

It stands to reason and logic that Jesus was a charasmatic apocalyptic preacher who preached change and  made accusations against the current way religion was going (of which there were many before, during and after) that pushed the buttons of the powers in charge so much so that he got himself killed for his efforts.
Only 30,50,70,100 years after his death did anyone bother to write about his life. At All!!! And that is when the miracles started too. 

So if these miracles did happen even among a majority of illiterate people, some educated people HAD to be among the witnesses, yet nobody mentions a single thing. Nothing is mentioned anywhere outside of the bible despite these same people being accurate record keepers and historians.

Were miracles so common that his did not stand out?

Or

Were no miracles performed just added generations later?

What does your logic say?


----------



## welderguy

WaltL1 said:


> Your iron sharpens iron theory I'm sure sounds all warm and fuzzy to you BUT have you considered -
> If you are debating with someone who has a more accurate interpretation than you do and you are able to convince them to see it your way, did you sharpen his iron or dull it?
> 
> And don't forget -



Why would he see it my way if he already had more accurate insight?

And to answer your question..again.. the Bible is non-contradictory, so to have an accurate interpretation means to have a non-contradictory one. That's the test. And that's why we debate so passionately sometimes.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Why would he see it my way if he already had more accurate insight?
> 
> And to answer your question..again.. the Bible is non-contradictory, so to have an accurate interpretation means to have a non-contradictory one. That's the test. And that's why we debate so passionately sometimes.


IF the bible was actually non-contradictory, inerrent, true, factual etc etc etc I and most likey "we" wouldnt have all these legitimate points and facts to back them up that show how valid the points are.

Your way is saying that once a person gets their head in the right frame of mind to believe wholeheartedly that the bible is non-contradictory..then we will see how non-contradictory it is.
Well that is just brilliant.
Almost as good as "use the bible to prove the bible"


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Yes, yes I know that.
> So why write these things for people who cannot read?
> 
> But back to my first point,
> The stories would have us believe that Jesus was going around raising the dead, healing the sick, feeding the masses, turning water to wine, walking on water and ascending skyward...
> The stories say these things were witnessed by 500 people at times...
> Now, it would stand to reason that a few educated people were among these witnesses.
> Jew, Gentile, priest, follower, hater, middle of the road or not when a guy pulls off those types of deeds SOMEONE IS going to record it in some way.
> The silence during Jesus 3 years of miracles is deafening!
> 
> It stands to reason and logic that Jesus was a charasmatic apocalyptic preacher who preached change and  made accusations against the current way religion was going (of which there were many before, during and after) that pushed the buttons of the powers in charge so much so that he got himself killed for his efforts.
> Only 30,50,70,100 years after his death did anyone bother to write about his life. At All!!! And that is when the miracles started too.
> 
> So if these miracles did happen even among a majority of illiterate people, some educated people HAD to be among the witnesses, yet nobody mentions a single thing. Nothing is mentioned anywhere outside of the bible despite these same people being accurate record keepers and historians.
> 
> Were miracles so common that his did not stand out?
> 
> Or
> 
> Were no miracles performed just added generations later?
> 
> What does your logic say?



I don't suppose it would fit into your logic that maybe God designed it to be this way?

I think the "good news" was intended for certain people(not unlike today), and to be hidden from others( also not unlike today). That simple.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Yes, yes I know that.
> So why write these things for people who cannot read?
> 
> But back to my first point,
> The stories would have us believe that Jesus was going around raising the dead, healing the sick, feeding the masses, turning water to wine, walking on water and ascending skyward...
> The stories say these things were witnessed by 500 people at times...
> Now, it would stand to reason that a few educated people were among these witnesses.
> Jew, Gentile, priest, follower, hater, middle of the road or not when a guy pulls off those types of deeds SOMEONE IS going to record it in some way.
> The silence during Jesus 3 years of miracles is deafening!
> 
> It stands to reason and logic that Jesus was a charasmatic apocalyptic preacher who preached change and  made accusations against the current way religion was going (of which there were many before, during and after) that pushed the buttons of the powers in charge so much so that he got himself killed for his efforts.
> Only 30,50,70,100 years after his death did anyone bother to write about his life. At All!!! And that is when the miracles started too.
> 
> So if these miracles did happen even among a majority of illiterate people, some educated people HAD to be among the witnesses, yet nobody mentions a single thing. Nothing is mentioned anywhere outside of the bible despite these same people being accurate record keepers and historians.
> 
> Were miracles so common that his did not stand out?
> 
> Or
> 
> Were no miracles performed just added generations later?
> 
> What does your logic say?



There was no silence in fact word of mouth was the way news traveled back then. Because most couldn't read or write. The ones that could may have written about it and the writings didn't survive. You know because there are like 2000 year old documents just floating around all over the place. Its not like they had blogs to post what they witnessed.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> IF the bible was actually non-contradictory, inerrent, true, factual etc etc etc I and most likey "we" wouldnt have all these legitimate points and facts to back them up that show how valid the points are.
> 
> Your way is saying that once a person gets their head in the right frame of mind to believe wholeheartedly that the bible is non-contradictory..then we will see how non-contradictory it is.
> Well that is just brilliant.
> Almost as good as "use the bible to prove the bible"



I've told you this a thousand times, it's not only about head knowledge. It takes "spirit-knowledge ", and you've admitted you don't even believe in spirit knowledge. So we're at a dead end.


----------



## atlashunter

welderguy said:


> Why would he see it my way if he already had more accurate insight?
> 
> And to answer your question..again.. the Bible is non-contradictory, so to have an accurate interpretation means to have a non-contradictory one. That's the test. And that's why we debate so passionately sometimes.



Oh boy.  Almost sounds like rather than reading the Bible and drawing a conclusion about contradictions based on your observation you start out with the assumption the Bible is non-contradictory and then try to interpret away the contradictions.

I'm guessing you've never read any of Bart Ehrman's work. He has written books on the discrepancies and contradictions found in scripture.

The Bible is full of contradictions. Here are a few.

https://ffrf.org/legacy/books/lfif/?t=contra


----------



## WaltL1

welderguy said:


> Why would he see it my way if he already had more accurate insight?
> 
> And to answer your question..again.. the Bible is non-contradictory, so to have an accurate interpretation means to have a non-contradictory one. That's the test. And that's why we debate so passionately sometimes.


Welder Ive been trying my best to avoid this but -
I really don't see any need to try to engage you in intelligent discussion anymore.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> I've told you this a thousand times, it's not only about head knowledge. It takes "spirit-knowledge ", and you've admitted you don't even believe in spirit knowledge. So we're at a dead end.



Sure, yes, spirit knowledge. 
And what other special skills can we add on?

You need to be able to convince yourself that the bible is 100% truth.
Then in addition a person must possess spirit knowledge.
Must a person be elected/chosen by god to have the power to understand also? If not you should add that to your list.

I will admit that I have Looney-Tunes knowledge that allows me to better decipher and understand the life guiding scripture contained within.


----------



## bullethead

atlashunter said:


> Oh boy.  Almost sounds like rather than reading the Bible and drawing a conclusion about contradictions based on your observation you start out with the assumption the Bible is non-contradictory and then try to interpret away the contradictions.
> 
> I'm guessing you've never read any of Bart Eheman's work. He has written books on the discrepancies and contradictions found in scripture.
> 
> The Bible is full of contradictions. Here are a few.
> 
> https://ffrf.org/legacy/books/lfif/?t=contra


Welder is a Presuppose-ist.
He starts out with the end result that he wants and invents ways for everything else to fit.

If there are errors, first beleive there are none and then they magically disappear.
You want to be part of gods elect, convince yourself that you are.
And on and on and on.


----------



## red neck richie

red neck richie said:


> There was no silence in fact word of mouth was the way news traveled back then. Because most couldn't read or write. The ones that could may have written about it and the writings didn't survive. You know because there are like 2000 year old documents just floating around all over the place. Its not like they had blogs to post what they witnessed.



In addition to the people on this site that have written down what they witnessed and you don't believe them anyway. So I don't think writings would have made a believer out of you anyways.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> There was no silence in fact word of mouth was the way news traveled back then. Because most couldn't read or write. The ones that could may have written about it and the writings didn't survive. You know because there are like 2000 year old documents just floating around all over the place. Its not like they had blogs to post what they witnessed.


Ahhh, now you are getting warm.
So do you think there were a LOT of other writings that were written and did not survive?
Maybe some that contained direct refutations to what you are lead to believe is the work of god?
Is it possible that other writings survived as well as what is in the bible but for some reason were not included?


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Ahhh, now you are getting warm.
> So do you think there were a LOT of other writings that were written and did not survive?
> Maybe some that contained direct refutations to what you are lead to believe is the work of god?
> Is it possible that other writings survived as well as what is in the bible but for some reason were not included?



Please just get to your point.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> In addition to the people on this site that have written down what they witnessed and you don't believe them anyway. So I don't think writings would have made a believer out of you anyways.



There are checks and measures that are used that allow someone to be judged on their credibility. Such as in court.
People can write whatever they want.  The people that can back up their claims with facts and credible witnesses that corroborate their stories tend to be believed.

Had say 50 of the 500 written about Jesus jet packing up into the sky and it is found in secular contemporary archives...you'd be onto something.
Mention it  70 years later.... umm not so much.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Please just get to your point.



Point is, only the writings that follow the story wanted told will make the book. Nobody will include all the writings that directly refute the story you want told.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Point is, only the writings that follow the story wanted told will make the book. Nobody will include all the writings that directly refute the story you want told.



And you know that to be factual how? you spoke to the writers?


----------



## atlashunter

j_seph said:


> Atlahunter, please give a testimony as to when where how and why you once believed(I presume) but now you do not. I am curious, if ya cannot post or do not want please pm me. Thank you



That could be really lengthy and I'm not inclined to put the time into a detailed write up. But I will start a separate thread and we can discuss if you have any questions.


----------



## stringmusic

atlashunter said:


> Eventually I realized if that was what I had to retreat to then that was testimony to how weak my foundation for belief really was.


Should he not rely on self observation and personal experience 


atlashunter said:


> Almost sounds like rather than reading the Bible and drawing a conclusion about contradictions based on your observation


Or should he?


----------



## WaltL1

red neck richie said:


> And you know that to be factual how? you spoke to the writers?


You just opened a can of worms my friend


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> And you know that to be factual how? you spoke to the writers?



You have got to start studying history Richie. You really need to look into ALL the writings of the times that were being written and WHAT they were about. There were LOTS of writings about supernatural, gods, miracles, religion. Yes the parts that make up the bible are certainly the most famous but over 1500 years, please do not kid yourself by thinking that they were the only things written.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> You have got to start studying history Richie. You really need to look into ALL the writings of the times that were being written and WHAT they were about. There were LOTS of writings about supernatural, gods, miracles, religion. Yes the parts that make up the bible are certainly the most famous but over 1500 years, please do not kid yourself by thinking that they were the only things written.



Not at all but not unlike today many things written were very political. Keep in mind back then you could be stoned to death for your views.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Not at all but not unlike today many things written were very political. Keep in mind back then you could be stoned to death for your views.



Yep. That may be why many writings were hidden in caves......
Ahem


----------



## atlashunter

stringmusic said:


> Should he not rely on self observation and personal experience
> 
> Or should he?



There is a difference between observation which can be shared like the list of contradictions I shared and internal experiences like triplexbullies and I were talking about.


----------



## red neck richie

WaltL1 said:


> You just opened a can of worms my friend



You know the saying what's good for the goose.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Yep. That may be why many writings were hidden in caves......
> Ahem



Don't confuse isolated tribal drawings on cave walls to eyewitness accounts.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> You know the saying what's good for the goose.



Does it end with something about the ganders ability to back up things with facts?


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Don't confuse isolated tribal drawings on cave walls to eyewitness accounts.


I did not say drawn on cave walls.
You do not know your biblical history....
Where were the Dead Sea scrolls found Richie?
I know you know it.....


----------



## atlashunter

red neck richie said:


> Not at all but not unlike today many things written were very political. Keep in mind back then you could be stoned to death for your views.



And there is another can of worms. Politics played a crucial role in what ultimately became church doctrine.


----------



## bullethead

http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/...ead-sea-scrolls-found-and-who-put-them-there/


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> I did not say drawn on cave walls.
> You do not know your biblical history....
> Where were the Dead Sea scrolls found Richie?
> I know you know it.....



Yes in a cave in the west bank so again what is your point?


----------



## bullethead

http://www.bartdehrman.com/lost-scriptures-books-that-did-not-make-it-into-the-new-testament/


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Yes in a cave in the west bank so again what is your point?



If you knew your history you would know my point.
Learn the history of the people/area that wrote your religion. Study it all. Who, why, how.

I don't want to change your beliefs just expand your historical knowledge of how those beliefs came to be and what else was going on at the same time.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> If you knew your history you would know my point.
> Learn the history of the people/area that wrote your religion. Study it all. Who, why, how.
> 
> I don't want to change your beliefs just expand your historical knowledge of how those beliefs came to be and what else was going on at the same time.



Maybe we should save up and travel to Jerusalem and visit the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. You will never change my knowledge. I know what I know.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Yes in a cave in the west bank so again what is your point?



In a cave because the conquering force would have burned them had they been found. They were not popular with the Romans.
Just like many writings that were not popular with the Jews got destroyed.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Maybe we should save up and travel to Jerusalem and visit the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. You will never change my knowledge. I know what I know.



Nah, too violent of an area for this American. Too many people killing each other over gods for me to purposely go there.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Maybe we should save up and travel to Jerusalem and visit the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. You will never change my knowledge. I know what I know.



Isn't that the church that has 4 or 5 denominations making claims of ownership and fighting over?


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Nah, too violent of an area for this American. Too many people killing each other over gods for me to purposely go there.



In poker we call that a tell.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> In poker we call that a tell.



In life I call my reply smart.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> In poker we call that a tell.



When you are sitting around the poker table and are trying to figure out who the sucker is.....it's most likely you.

Just words of advice...nothing personal


----------



## hobbs27

atlashunter said:


> The Bible is full of contradictions. Here are a few.
> 
> https://ffrf.org/legacy/books/lfif/?t=contra



I've been through this already. There are no contradictions in scripture. The link simply proves it's author is uneducated. 

The contradictions are in man.  Not understanding the Hebraic culture,  not understanding covenants,  not understanding the influence of the Alexandrian and Hellenistic periods... Even Jew's at the time of Christ had lost their Jewish heritage and were somewhat perplexed and confused over the scriptures.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> In poker we call that a tell.



I'm folding for the night.
Peace out


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> When you are sitting around the poker table and are trying to figure out who the sucker is.....it's most likely you.
> 
> Just words of advice...nothing personal



That's my game plan anyways. I'm the sucker till I have all their chips. Your just bluffing. I got the nuts.


----------



## atlashunter

atlashunter said:


> That could be really lengthy and I'm not inclined to put the time into a detailed write up. But I will start a separate thread and we can discuss if you have any questions.



Actually j_seph I made a thread on that topic years ago and had forgotten about it. Must be getting old. Here it is and I'll bump it to the top.

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=594474


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> I'm folding for the night.
> Peace out



I appreciate you folding for the night right after you throw out an insult that's very brave of you. That like the guys that win a pot once and cash out.


----------



## atlashunter

red neck richie said:


> I appreciate you folding for the night right after you throw out an insult that's very brave of you. That like the guys that win a pot once and cash out.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> I appreciate you folding for the night right after you throw out an insult that's very brave of you. That like the guys that win a pot once and cash out.



See, now this is why I am positive that you only see what you want to see and the way you want to see it while disregarding  what is actually said.

I gave no insult.
I even included "just words of advice...nothing personal"


----------



## stringmusic

atlashunter said:


> There is a difference between observation which can be shared like the list of contradictions I shared and internal experiences like triplexbullies and I were talking about.



Is an observation and internal experience the same thing?


----------



## atlashunter

stringmusic said:


> Is an observation and internal experience the same thing?



No. They are related. They are not the same thing.


----------



## TripleXBullies

atlashunter said:


> Eventually I realized if that was what I had to retreat to then that was testimony to how weak my foundation for belief really was.



Isn't all belief personal? ALL belief. Aren't there people who don't believe in gravity? So wouldn't personal testimony be the ultimate foundation of belief?


----------



## TripleXBullies

welderguy said:


> I've told you this a thousand times, it's not only about head knowledge. It takes "spirit-knowledge ", and you've admitted you don't even believe in spirit knowledge. So we're at a dead end.



That's where we MUST start in here.


----------



## atlashunter

TripleXBullies said:


> Isn't all belief personal? ALL belief. Aren't there people who don't believe in gravity? So wouldn't personal testimony be the ultimate foundation of belief?



Not really. Not all beliefs are equally supported by observation. When Einstein developed his theory of relativity that theory predicted that gravity would bend light. He was able to predict that his theory could be confirmed through observation of the bending of light as it passed near the sun. Others were independently able to make the observations which confirmed his predictions. The belief was falsifiable and it passed the test. Contrast that with religious beliefs based on internal personal experiences and being "moved" that predict nothing, which nobody can falsify and in fact which cannot all be used to support belief because people describe similar experiences based on a wide range of conflicting religious beliefs.


----------



## WaltL1

TripleXBullies said:


> That's where we MUST start in here.


Please explain.


----------



## TripleXBullies

Has Einstein opened absolute truth? As we discuss here frequently, there was time when everyone believed that the Earth was flat. People have absolutely believed that more advanced people were gods. I don't think it's impossible for anything to be disproven at some point. 

So IMO all belief in everything is internalized. I think it's always personal testimony and personal experience being reasoned that creates belief. When I have seen and read some of the flat Earth arguments, there are sprinkles of thought provoking ideas... but then I fall back on my experience and how I have personally interacted with the Earth... and I laugh at them!





atlashunter said:


> Not really. Not all beliefs are equally supported by observation. When Einstein developed his theory of relativity that theory predicted that gravity would bend light. He was able to predict that his theory could be confirmed through observation of the bending of light as it passed near the sun. Others were independently able to make the observations which confirmed his predictions. The belief was falsifiable and it passed the test. Contrast that with religious beliefs based on internal personal experiences and being "moved" that predict nothing, which nobody can falsify and in fact which cannot all be used to support belief because people describe similar experiences based on a wide range of conflicting religious beliefs.


----------



## TripleXBullies

He says we're at a dead end because you admit you don't have "spirit knowledge." Maybe I'm not too clear on what that is..... but obviously that's where we start in here. We can't start with any assumption that the bible is true or that y'all can take any bit of it at it's word. 



WaltL1 said:


> Please explain.






welderguy said:


> I've told you this a thousand times, it's not only about head knowledge. It takes "spirit-knowledge ", and you've admitted you don't even believe in spirit knowledge. So we're at a dead end.


----------



## WaltL1

TripleXBullies said:


> Isn't all belief personal? ALL belief. Aren't there people who don't believe in gravity? So wouldn't personal testimony be the ultimate foundation of belief?


I can get where you are going with this.
But you can believe something because its a fact and you can believe something because you FEEL it.
Which is fine for the individual.
But if you want me to believe, its going to take something more than YOUR feelings to do it.


----------



## atlashunter

TripleXBullies said:


> Has Einstein opened absolute truth? As we discuss here frequently, there was time when everyone believed that the Earth was flat. People have absolutely believed that more advanced people were gods. I don't think it's impossible for anything to be disproven at some point.
> 
> So IMO all belief in everything is internalized. I think it's always personal testimony and personal experience being reasoned that creates belief.



Science doesn't deal in absolute truth. It has the honesty to admit it could be wrong and change course in light of new evidence. And that happens all the time. Religion does claim absolute truth even though the evidence we should see based on it's own claims is not there. Instead of acknowledging that lack of evidence people make excuses, reinterpretations, resort to personal experiences, etc. It's dishonest reasoning in my opinion. If I was so inclined, I could learn how to take the observations, go where an eclipse is happening and observe for myself what Einstein's theory predicted. I can't do that with your personal testimony. And even if I could somehow plug into your mind and experience the exact same thing you experienced it wouldn't serve as evidence to support the claims of Christianity. Why? Because we already know that we can have experiences that aren't real. A mental state, a feeling of being "moved" in and of itself is not good evidence and should not be relied upon. At the very least we should be asking, what other evidence should we see if these claims are true?


----------



## WaltL1

TripleXBullies said:


> He says we're at a dead end because you admit you don't have "spirit knowledge." Maybe I'm not too clear on what that is..... but obviously that's where we start in here. We can't start with any assumption that the bible is true or that y'all can take any bit of it at it's word.





> Maybe I'm not too clear on what that is


So you aren't clear on what spirit knowledge is but that's where you think we should start?
Ok I'm in lets start there.
First lets prove this "spirit knowledge" is not a figment of imagination and actually exists and then we'll go from there.
You start.


----------



## TripleXBullies

WaltL1 said:


> I can get where you are going with this.
> But you can believe something because its a fact and you can believe something because you FEEL it.
> Which is fine for the individual.
> But if you want me to believe, its going to take something more than YOUR feelings to do it.



Of course. I'm referring to personal experience driving personal belief. Not bringing others to agree.


----------



## TripleXBullies

WaltL1 said:


> So you aren't clear on what spirit knowledge is but that's where you think we should start?
> Ok I'm in lets start there.
> First lets prove this "spirit knowledge" is not a figment of imagination and actually exists and then we'll go from there.
> You start.



No no.... That's not what I'm saying. 

Welder says he's reached a dead end because you say you have no spirit knowledge. 

I don't think it's a dead end necessarily but said dead end is where we start in here. It's not the end.


----------



## atlashunter

TripleXBullies said:


> Of course. I'm referring to personal experience driving personal belief. Not bringing others to agree.



You mentioned shamans having similar experiences. If others can have similar experiences that lead them to beliefs which conflict with your beliefs by what method can you figure out whose belief is true?


----------



## WaltL1

TripleXBullies said:


> Of course. I'm referring to personal experience driving personal belief. Not bringing others to agree.


Ok sure I'm good with that.
If its left at that.


----------



## TripleXBullies

WaltL1 said:


> Ok sure I'm good with that.
> If its left at that.



If I write about my belief based on my personal testimony, it's for the information. I know nothing I say about what I experience myself is going to change anyone's mind in here. I know you guys. I was you guys... and it still wouldn't change my mind.


----------



## WaltL1

TripleXBullies said:


> No no.... That's not what I'm saying.
> 
> Welder says he's reached a dead end because you say you have no spirit knowledge.
> 
> I don't think it's a dead end necessarily but said dead end is where we start in here. It's not the end.


Ok I misunderstood. Sorry about that.


----------



## TripleXBullies

atlashunter said:


> You mentioned shamans having similar experiences. If others can have similar experiences that lead them to beliefs which conflict with your beliefs by what method can you figure out whose belief is true?



Nope.


----------



## WaltL1

TripleXBullies said:


> If I write about my belief based on my personal testimony, it's for the information. I know nothing I say about what I experience myself is going to change anyone's mind in here. I know you guys. I was you guys... and it still wouldn't change my mind.


Yes. And I want to be clear - I don't think you are here for the reason of changing anybodys mind. You are just sharing your experience.
Now that you are a Christian, sometimes when I say you I don't mean YOU personally, I mean you as in "you Christians".


----------



## WaltL1

atlashunter said:


> Science doesn't deal in absolute truth. It has the honesty to admit it could be wrong and change course in light of new evidence. And that happens all the time. Religion does claim absolute truth even though the evidence we should see based on it's own claims is not there. Instead of acknowledging that lack of evidence people make excuses, reinterpretations, resort to personal experiences, etc. It's dishonest reasoning in my opinion. If I was so inclined, I could learn how to take the observations, go where an eclipse is happening and observe for myself what Einstein's theory predicted. I can't do that with your personal testimony. And even if I could somehow plug into your mind and experience the exact same thing you experienced it wouldn't serve as evidence to support the claims of Christianity. Why? Because we already know that we can have experiences that aren't real. A mental state, a feeling of being "moved" in and of itself is not good evidence and should not be relied upon. At the very least we should be asking, what other evidence should we see if these claims are true?





> Science doesn't deal in absolute truth. It has the honesty to admit it could be wrong and change course in light of new evidence. And that happens all the time.


More importantly than admitting it could be wrong it works diligently to prove itself wrong.
Religion.... not so much.


----------



## welderguy

Serious question:

Do you guys believe it's possible for an unborn child to believe, even though its brain has not fully developed and it hasn't heard about God with its ears?

I do.


----------



## atlashunter

TripleXBullies said:


> Nope.



???


----------



## TripleXBullies

atlashunter said:


> ???




Oops. I was reading too quickly. I thought you asked if there was a method. I don't know that there is a method.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Serious question:
> 
> Do you guys believe it's possible for an unborn child to believe, even though its brain has not fully developed and it hasn't heard about God with its ears?
> 
> I do.


No I do not


----------



## atlashunter

TripleXBullies said:


> Oops. I was reading too quickly. I thought you asked if there was a method. I don't know that there is a method.



So what does that tell you? Forget convincing others. Why would it convince you when you know the same leads others to other beliefs and you can't all be right?


----------



## TripleXBullies

Personal experience and testimony is the foundation of personal belief. Just as you believe your own feelings about logic and what the number of gods and religions in the world tells you about things, you've come to your own conclusion. For me before, the experience and testimony of new ideas and possibilties, outweighed the faith. More recently the scales tipped the other way.


----------



## atlashunter

TripleXBullies said:


> Personal experience and testimony is the foundation of personal belief. Just as you believe your own feelings about logic and what the number of gods and religions in the world tells you about things, you've come to your own conclusion. For me before, the experience and testimony of new ideas and possibilties, outweighed the faith. More recently the scales tipped the other way.



That doesn't answer the question. What methodology do you have to differentiate those beliefs which comport with reality from those which do not?


----------



## ambush80

Jump to 10:00.  I like what Mill says about "collision with error".


----------



## bullethead

Good stuff ambush


----------



## hobbs27

Saw this,  thought it was appropriate for the thread.


----------



## atlashunter

hobbs27 said:


> Saw this,  thought it was appropriate for the thread.



Cute but false.


----------



## WaltL1

hobbs27 said:


> Saw this,  thought it was appropriate for the thread.


Replace "them" with "reality" and it will be getting closer.


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> Saw this,  thought it was appropriate for the thread.



You are a prime example of how belief trumps facts.


----------



## atlashunter

bullethead said:


> You are a prime example of how belief trumps facts.



What's funny is just a few floors up they go back and forth trying to interpret their way out of the contradictions.


----------



## bullethead

atlashunter said:


> What's funny is just a few floors up they go back and forth trying to interpret their way out of the contradictions.



They must do like welder and hobbs and BELIEVE that contradictions do not exist. That way when encountered it is easier to act like they are not there at all.
Another good suggestion by them is to read the whole bible. That has almost never been done before.


----------



## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> You are a prime example of how belief trumps facts.



Really?  How so?


----------



## WaltL1

For me, contradictions that the Bible has or may have is but a minor "ingredient".
And even if there are zero contradictions and is perfectly fluid, it would not make one iota of a difference to me.
A book with totally supporting chapters does not make it true/fact.
A book that takes 1,000+ years to create ought be pretty darn fluid anyway.


----------



## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> They must do like welder and hobbs and BELIEVE that contradictions do not exist. That way when encountered it is easier to act like they are not there at all.
> Another good suggestion by them is to read the whole bible. That has almost never been done before.



 I almost missed this.. I read the whole Bible in 2004. I've read it a couple times through since,  but now concentrate on books more. Reading the whole Bible is not understanding the whole Bible,  but it does give you a picture of God's relationship with man since He first made covenant with Adam. 

 I bet more people have read the whole Bible than you think.


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> I almost missed this.. I read the whole Bible in 2004. I've read it a couple times through since,  but now concentrate on books more. Reading the whole Bible is not understanding the whole Bible,  but it does give you a picture of God's relationship with man since He first made covenant with Adam.
> 
> I bet more people have read the whole Bible than you think.


I am guessing that detecting sarcasm is not a strong point????

My point IS....
Absolutely the bible has, is, and will be read cover to cover, referenced frequently and studied often...and that is just by atheists. 
We are often told that someone needs to read the bible in it's entirety in order to understand the bible and see that it contains no errors, inaccuracies, contradictions etc etc.
Well, many of us have read it. Multiple times. Reference it frequently and we still disagree with your instructions for clarity.

Truth be told a major reason why I think the way I do now IS from reading the bible.


----------



## atlashunter

WaltL1 said:


> For me, contradictions that the Bible has or may have is but a minor "ingredient".
> And even if there are zero contradictions and is perfectly fluid, it would not make one iota of a difference to me.
> A book with totally supporting chapters does not make it true/fact.
> A book that takes 1,000+ years to create ought be pretty darn fluid anyway.



That's true although it isn't a single book. It's a collection of books written by different authors with different messages and agendas who never intended it to be part of a bible. It would be incredible if there weren't contradictions.


----------



## WaltL1

bullethead said:


> I am guessing that detecting sarcasm is not a strong point????
> 
> My point IS....
> Absolutely the bible has, is, and will be read cover to cover, referenced frequently and studied often...and that is just by atheists.
> We are often told that someone needs to read the bible in it's entirety in order to understand the bible and see that it contains no errors, inaccuracies, contradictions etc etc.
> Well, many of us have read it. Multiple times. Reference it frequently and we still disagree with your instructions for clarity.


Its kind of silly that even when the Christians here know we used to be Christians they still regurgitate the ol' "you should read it" advice.
You know, because when we were Christians, researching Christianity, leaving Christianity and now debate with Christians, the thought never occurred to us to read/study the Bible.


----------



## WaltL1

atlashunter said:


> That's true although it isn't a single book. It's a collection of books written by different authors with different messages and agendas who never intended it to be part of a bible. It would be incredible if there weren't contradictions.


Yes I didnt word it properly.


----------



## bullethead

atlashunter said:


> That's true although it isn't a single book. It's a collection of books written by different authors with different messages and agendas who never intended it to be part of a bible. It would be incredible if there weren't contradictions.



Over a span of 1500 years too!


----------



## bullethead

WaltL1 said:


> Its kind of silly that even when the Christians here know we used to be Christians they still regurgitate the ol' "you should read it" advice.
> You know, because when we were Christians, researching Christianity, leaving Christianity and now debate with Christians, the thought never occurred to us to read/study the Bible.


I hate to keep saying it but we see example after example of selective reading comprehension and totally ignoring facts that refute claims. The routine is to continue on as if the information was never said and it seems very obvious that it is intentional.


----------



## WaltL1

bullethead said:


> I hate to keep saying it but we see example after example of selective reading comprehension and totally ignoring facts that refute claims. The routine is to continue on as if the information was never said and it seems very obvious that it is intentional.


This is the part that I find so interesting and is a big reason why I discuss religion.
Is it intentional?
Is it just too threatening?
Is there some sort of mental block?

I think that's why I get frustrated with Christians who only regurgitate scripture. It requires 0 thought and I'm not here to learn about regurgitation I'm here in large part to learn about the psychological aspects of the subject.


----------



## bullethead

WaltL1 said:


> This is the part that I find so interesting and is a big reason why I discuss religion.
> Is it intentional?
> Is it just too threatening?
> Is there some sort of mental block?
> 
> I think that's why I get frustrated with Christians who only regurgitate scripture. It requires 0 thought and I'm not here to learn about regurgitation I'm here in large part to learn about the psychological aspects of the subject.



I could not agree more


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> I hate to keep saying it but we see example after example of selective reading comprehension and totally ignoring facts that refute claims. The routine is to continue on as if the information was never said and it seems very obvious that it is intentional.



Lose the condescending attitude and you may get more response. Just saying.

I don't know how many discussions I've been in that were good, until it turned sour by the atheistic condescension.


----------



## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> You are a prime example of how belief trumps facts.






			
				Hobbs27 said:
			
		

> Really?  How so?



So,  do you often make baseless claims you can't,  or won't back up with facts?


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Lose the condescending attitude and you may get more response. Just saying.
> 
> I don't know how many discussions I've been in that were good, until it turned sour by the atheistic condescension.


I know the feeling brother.
Most times while engaged in discussion with believers they will regurgitate scripture and suggest that reading the bible is the key to our "problem".
Oh and when they constantly refer to people who believe differently than they do as atheists is another conversational downer.


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> So,  do you often make baseless claims you can't,  or won't back up with facts?



Oh, sorry man. Based off of the examples I get from a few pro god guys in here I figured it was perfectly fine just to ignore direct questions and continue on as if never asked at all.

But more to the point I/we have shown time and time again how there are contradictions.
We have been told answers by believers that all claim to understand the bible that contradict each other...and each will tell the other believer is incorrect in their interpretation and the other is wrong.
Then to top it off certain guys that believe in god and frequent this forum elevate all of their answers to being able to have a gift, being elect, being chosen by a god, and the topper is their ability to be spiritually connected when we show them how all of their other claims are invalid.
Nothing that they claim is verifiable.
Nothing is backed up by facts.
Nothing is tangible.

And you ask me now to do what Ive been doing day in and day out for years. It is because you ignore the facts in front of you and continue with beliefs. You say that the bible is non-contradictory and all anyone has to do it read it as a whole. Well many have including myself and still find it contradictory and have posted how it contradicts, is error filled, lacks historical and geographical knowledge, lacks knowledge of local customs and military protocol and cannot agree with itself on times of day, hours  and events....You have given us the example that you want from me.


----------



## red neck richie

WaltL1 said:


> This is the part that I find so interesting and is a big reason why I discuss religion.
> Is it intentional?
> Is it just too threatening?
> Is there some sort of mental block?
> 
> I think that's why I get frustrated with Christians who only regurgitate scripture. It requires 0 thought and I'm not here to learn about regurgitation I'm here in large part to learn about the psychological aspects of the subject.



By psychological aspects do you mean healing aspects. I have given you guys several examples. In fact I was just reading a post on an elderly woman who was blind and regained her sight directly after she was laid hands on and prayed for. There are thousands of examples of being healed directly after prayer. Talk about deflecting, the only response I get is what about the other religions that make the same claim. Answer the question how are these people being healed. I know Bullets answer they are all liars.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> By psychological aspects do you mean healing aspects. I have given you guys several examples. In fact I was just reading a post on an elderly woman who was blind and regained her sight directly after she was laid hands on and prayed for. There are thousands of examples of being healed directly after prayer. Talk about deflecting, the only response I get is what about the other religions that make the same claim. Answer the question how are these people being healed. I know Bullets answer they are all liars.



Again, you jump to conclusions without ever checking first.
They are not all liars. The power of suggestion is an incredible force that along with the mind creates miraculous results. 
Placibos work the same way. As long they believe what is happening to them or what meds they take will cure them is enough.

Detached retinas do not mend any more than amputated limbs regrow when laid hands on. 
Our bodies are constanrly fighting off cancer, disease, germs, blood clots, deteriorating tissues etc every second of every day. The immune systems of some people do a better job than others sometimes. Many times if you have help believing something out of the ordinary will work, it does work....but it works psychologically. Physically the cure was always there.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> By psychological aspects do you mean healing aspects. I have given you guys several examples. In fact I was just reading a post on an elderly woman who was blind and regained her sight directly after she was laid hands on and prayed for. There are thousands of examples of being healed directly after prayer. Talk about deflecting, the only response I get is what about the other religions that make the same claim. Answer the question how are these people being healed. I know Bullets answer they are all liars.



So all the parents that are sitting in jail or have served jail time because they relied on prayer and laying on of hands to cure their ill children (who ended up dying) instead of getting treated medically by professionals.....are they liars or just bad christians?

If prayer and the laying on of hands worked every single time without fail or explanation I would say that there is certainly something to it.
But when it comes down to a coin flip and nobody has ever regrown a limb because someone touched their stump and prayed for them it leads me to believe that it is an individuals body's ability to deal with whatever ails them along with the power of suggestion.
The fact that these things happen worldwide in all cultures and religions and belief systems is great proof that no one god is responsible. If every christian that ever prayed to be healed got healed and everyone else did not, id think and say differently.


----------



## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> Oh, sorry man. Based off of the examples I get from a few pro god guys in here I figured it was perfectly fine just to ignore direct questions and continue on as if never asked at all.
> 
> But more to the point I/we have shown time and time again how there are contradictions.
> We have been told answers by believers that all claim to understand the bible that contradict each other...and each will tell the other believer is incorrect in their interpretation and the other is wrong.
> Then to top it off certain guys that believe in god and frequent this forum elevate all of their answers to being able to have a gift, being elect, being chosen by a god, and the topper is their ability to be spiritually connected when we show them how all of their other claims are invalid.
> Nothing that they claim is verifiable.
> Nothing is backed up by facts.
> Nothing is tangible.
> 
> And you ask me now to do what Ive been doing day in and day out for years. It is because you ignore the facts in front of you and continue with beliefs. You say that the bible is non-contradictory and all anyone has to do it read it as a whole. Well many have including myself and still find it contradictory and have posted how it contradicts, is error filled, lacks historical and geographical knowledge, lacks knowledge of local customs and military protocol and cannot agree with itself on times of day, hours  and events....You have given us the example that you want from me.



I thought God existed at one point in my life,  then I doubted for a while.  Then several things happened all at once in my life and I then knew God existed.  I also knew that the God that is.. Is the Christian God.  No matter how in detail I tell my story,  it willean nothing to you,  because it is my story,  my personal dealings with God. 

Since that time I have never doubted,  not even a little.  I do know that most Christians have it wrong though,  as for the bible.  The contradictions are in man,  not God's word. 
So I studied and studied and studied,  until I was able to get my mind in the right narrative,  then it all came together.  From Genesis to Revelation we read a perfect story of God's relationship with man. 
 I know where Christianity went wrong,  I know why it went wrong,  and I also know the more time that goes by the more we will all learn and someday,  the majority will get it right.

Just some of the big faults. 

The he11 doctrine and a future Armageddon.  Both are false doctrines and are not truly taught in the Bible.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Again, you jump to conclusions without ever checking first.
> They are not all liars. The power of suggestion is an incredible force that along with the mind creates miraculous results.
> Placibos work the same way. As long they believe what is happening to them or what meds they take will cure them is enough.
> 
> Detached retinas do not mend any more than amputated limbs regrow when laid hands on.
> Our bodies are constanrly fighting off cancer, disease, germs, blood clots, deteriorating tissues etc every second of every day. The immune systems of some people do a better job than others sometimes. Many times if you have help believing something out of the ordinary will work, it does work....but it works psychologically. Physically the cure was always there.



I appreciate your answer. I agree with most of what you said. Except on where the miraculous results come from. But the straight forward answer allows me to understand your point. So thanks for that. Just food for thought but based on your logic psychologically you would be able to create these illness's as well with your mind correct?


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> I thought God existed at one point in my life,  then I doubted for a while.  Then several things happened all at once in my life and I then knew God existed.  I also knew that the God that is.. Is the Christian God.  No matter how in detail I tell my story,  it willean nothing to you,  because it is my story,  my personal dealings with God.
> 
> Since that time I have never doubted,  not even a little.  I do know that most Christians have it wrong though,  as for the bible.  The contradictions are in man,  not God's word.
> So I studied and studied and studied,  until I was able to get my mind in the right narrative,  then it all came together.  From Genesis to Revelation we read a perfect story of God's relationship with man.
> I know where Christianity went wrong,  I know why it went wrong,  and I also know the more time that goes by the more we will all learn and someday,  the majority will get it right.
> 
> Just some of the big faults.
> 
> The he11 doctrine and a future Armageddon.  Both are false doctrines and are not truly taught in the Bible.



I believe that you believe that stuff.
Can you explain why even many of the Jewish scholars now acknowledge that the Exodous did not happen and they base that off of the lack of any archeological evidence to support such an event?

How all the kinds of animals fit on the Ark. How they got there, what they ate, what they drank and how they repopulated the earth afterwards since there was nothing to eat but each other..


Why were there 2 roman soldiers that guarded the tomb?

Where did Moses receive the 10 commandments?

Has anyone ever seen god?

Temptation, Incest, Circumcision, the power of god, and literally a thousand more.

Can you explain these to me on how they are true and or non contradictory ?


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> I appreciate your answer. I agree with most of what you said. Except on where the miraculous results come from. But the straight forward answer allows me to understand your point. So thanks for that. Just food for thought but based on your logic psychologically you would be able to create these illness's as well with your mind correct?


Hypochondriacs do it all the time.

What about the children who die because their parents prayed instead of sought medical attention. Why didnt it work?

Why doesn't your god regrow severed limbs?
Not even once instance.  Why?


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> I appreciate your answer. I agree with most of what you said. Except on where the miraculous results come from. But the straight forward answer allows me to understand your point. So thanks for that. Just food for thought but based on your logic psychologically you would be able to create these illness's as well with your mind correct?



So when people pray to other gods, idols, carved stones, stumps in the back yard, milk jugs....when witch doctors cure illnesses and also cast spells that harm,  when a shawman heals a sick person, when all these other people in some way shape or form are also healed by these other means.....
WHO is responsible for those results?


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> So when people pray to other gods, idols, carved stones, stumps in the back yard, milk jugs....when witch doctors cure illnesses and also cast spells that harm,  when a shawman heals a sick person, when all these other people in some way shape or form are also healed by these other means.....
> WHO is responsible for those results?



God doesn't only use Christians for his will to be done. He may be using you right now in fact and you don't even know it.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Hypochondriacs do it all the time.
> 
> What about the children who die because their parents prayed instead of sought medical attention. Why didnt it work?
> 
> Why doesn't your god regrow severed limbs?
> Not even once instance.  Why?



I knew the questions would come. The answer is I don't have all the answers to all your questions because I only know how God has worked in my life. To sit here and tell you I know why God does what he does and when he does it would be foolish. I can only tell you from my experiences how I understand the Holy spirit to work. I believe He touches you spiritually and if you cannot reach that level spiritually you do not feel his presence. At this level of spirituality often achieved while in prayer I feel his presence.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> I knew the questions would come. The answer is I don't have all the answers to all your questions because I only know how God has worked in my life. To sit here and tell you I know why God does what he does and when he does it would be foolish. I can only tell you from my experiences how I understand the Holy spirit to work. I believe He touches you spiritually and if you cannot reach that level spiritually you do not feel his presence. At this level of spirituality often achieved while in prayer I feel his presence.


What or who is fulfilling all these other people's prayers, wishes and methods?
I am asking you to put some more thought into the possibilities and give me your educated guess instead of just stopping when the questions get tough.

How about next time tou feel his presence tell him 'Ol  Bullethead up in PA would sure love a visit but in case his schedule doesn't allow for the visit can you ask him those questions for me?


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> God doesn't only use Christians for his will to be done. He may be using you right now in fact and you don't even know it.



Now wait, you claim to know this. In fact you state it as a matter of fact.
How in the H E double hockey stix do you know this and in the next reply say that you do not how your god works or what he thinks?
Gracious man, listen to yourself!!

And don't forget....if what you say is possible that your god is using me  then it stands to reason and logic that he also may not.
And
Another god may be using you or us both right now.
Or
No god is not using any of us.
Or 
There is a god/multiple gods and they just do not care.
Or
There are no gods.


----------



## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> I believe that you believe that stuff.
> Can you explain why even many of the Jewish scholars now acknowledge that the Exodous did not happen and they base that off of the lack of any archeological evidence to support such an event?
> 
> How all the kinds of animals fit on the Arc. How they got there, what they ate, what they drank and how they repopulated the earth afterwards since there was nothing to eat but each other..
> 
> 
> Why were there 2 roman soldiers that guarded the tomb?
> 
> Where did Moses receive the 10 commandments?
> 
> Has anyone ever seen god?
> 
> Temptation, Incest, Circumcision, the power of god, and literally a thousand more.
> 
> Can you explain these to me on how they are true and or non contradictory ?



Jewish scholars.. Honestly I haven't looked into it.  I consider Jewish Scholars just as trustworthy as Muslim scholars,  neither truly know God. 

Animals on the ark.  Well first I don't believe it was a global flood.  The word translated (eretz)  simply means land,  and that can and does many times mean a local region.  It hard for me to think that Moses and Israelites for thousands of years thought the flood global seeing how they didn't think the planet was a globe. 

So there's two possible conclusions.  1) it was simply filled with local animals.  2) A few old Testament scholars and students of the ANE texts and cultures say the animals could have represented people...a people not in covenant with God.  Something I'm just now studying and testing to the scriptures. 


The two Roman soldiers guarded the tomb..Im just going off the top of my head here,  but I think there was only one guard,  and is it known this guard was a Roman soldier?  Could it not have been a Jewish temple guard?  

Where did Moses receive the 10 commandments? Mt. Sinai

Has anyone seen God?  Not His face,  but yes. 

On the latter,  sure,  but each one can make a lengthy conversation.  Circumcision was a sign that Israelite men were in covenant with God.   That changed the circumcision of the heart and escaped the Israelite race between the new and old covenants


----------



## WaltL1

red neck richie said:


> By psychological aspects do you mean healing aspects. I have given you guys several examples. In fact I was just reading a post on an elderly woman who was blind and regained her sight directly after she was laid hands on and prayed for. There are thousands of examples of being healed directly after prayer. Talk about deflecting, the only response I get is what about the other religions that make the same claim. Answer the question how are these people being healed. I know Bullets answer they are all liars.





> By psychological aspects do you mean healing aspects.


Well no not specifically but yes it would be a part of it.
Basically what I mean by the psychology of it is - 
people regardless of which religion can be pretty darn serious about their beliefs without actually proving it to be true first. In other words on faith.
People are attached mentally, emotionally, financially, generationally etc etc to their beliefs.
Now its pretty safe to say we all take things on "faith".
But when it comes to religion people are willing to go all in and I mean ALL IN (think suicide bombers, mothers who wont take their children to the doctor etc) on something that, and lets be honest, is NOT a proven fact.
What we believe, why we believe it, why we don't etc falls under the "psychology" of it.
That's what interests me.
When we debate its a lot more than "Yes it is", "No it isn't". In the process we are all exposing why we do, why we don't, why we did, why we didn't etc etc........
The psychology of it.


----------



## TripleXBullies

That's what I was saying earlier. This is where the conversation has to START in here.. While welder seemed to think it dead ended when you said you wouldn't just believe it when you read it because you didn't have that faith. 99% of the conversation from Christians in here stays in a place where it never has a chance to even start.



WaltL1 said:


> Its kind of silly that even when the Christians here know we used to be Christians they still regurgitate the ol' "you should read it" advice.
> You know, because when we were Christians, researching Christianity, leaving Christianity and now debate with Christians, the thought never occurred to us to read/study the Bible.


----------



## TripleXBullies

I think it's basically the same thing that keeps you where you're at. You're internally held to it, we are internally held to it. They're both called belief.



WaltL1 said:


> This is the part that I find so interesting and is a big reason why I discuss religion.
> Is it intentional?
> Is it just too threatening?
> Is there some sort of mental block?


----------



## TripleXBullies

welderguy said:


> Lose the condescending attitude and you may get more response. Just saying.
> 
> I don't know how many discussions I've been in that were good, until it turned sour by the atheistic condescension.



Why are you here then if not to respond? "Be nice, and then  maybe I'd choose to make it all clear for you." Is that what you meant???


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> Jewish scholars.. Honestly I haven't looked into it.  I consider Jewish Scholars just as trustworthy as Muslim scholars,  neither truly know God.
> 
> Animals on the ark.  Well first I don't believe it was a global flood.  The word translated (eretz)  simply means land,  and that can and does many times mean a local region.  It hard for me to think that Moses and Israelites for thousands of years thought the flood global seeing how they didn't think the planet was a globe.
> 
> So there's two possible conclusions.  1) it was simply filled with local animals.  2) A few old Testament scholars and students of the ANE texts and cultures say the animals could have represented people...a people not in covenant with God.  Something I'm just now studying and testing to the scriptures.
> 
> 
> The two Roman soldiers guarded the tomb..Im just going off the top of my head here,  but I think there was only one guard,  and is it known this guard was a Roman soldier?  Could it not have been a Jewish temple guard?
> 
> Where did Moses receive the 10 commandments? Mt. Sinai
> 
> Has anyone seen God?  Not His face,  but yes.
> 
> On the latter,  sure,  but each one can make a lengthy conversation.  Circumcision was a sign that Israelite men were in covenant with God.   That changed the circumcision of the heart and escaped the Israelite race between the new and old covenants


Exodus
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/moses-exodus.html

Roman Guards
http://sntjohnny.com/front/guards-at-the-tomb-the-discipline-of-the-roman-soldier/2201.htm

http://www.jcnot4me.com/page81.html

I have seen God face to face ..." -- Genesis 32:30

"No man hath seen God at any time..."-- John 1:18



.. with God all things are possible." - Matthew 19:26

"...The LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron." -- Judges 1:19



"This is my covenant, which ye shall keep,between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised." -- Genesis 17:10

"...if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you  nothing." -- Galatians 5:2


----------



## WaltL1

TripleXBullies said:


> I think it's basically the same thing that keeps you where you're at. You're internally held to it, we are internally held to it. They're both called belief.


Sure I'll go with that.
But lets be honest, what you are internally held to is a bit more of a stretch than what I am held to.
While I'm learning about why/how you can do it, I'm also learning about why/how I can't.


----------



## TripleXBullies

I think about the things that have held me back. I just don't dwell on them any more.


----------



## WaltL1

TripleXBullies said:


> I think about the things that have held me back. I just don't dwell on them any more.


Bingo.
And to you "it is simple as that".
You went from dwelling on it to not dwelling on it right before our very eyes my friend 
BUT
you didn't go out and PROVE God existed and so changed your mind.
"Something" happened psychologically. 
And you've been doing good trying to describe it. Glad you came back around.


----------



## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> Exodus
> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/moses-exodus.html



I  discredited Jewish scholars and you link a PBS site?  


> Roman Guards
> http://sntjohnny.com/front/guards-at-the-tomb-the-discipline-of-the-roman-soldier/2201.htm
> 
> http://www.jcnot4me.com/page81.html



I couldn't open the first link.  I really don't know what it matters that guards were sent to the tomb and looking at it in Matthew I seriously think this was temple guards not Roman guards.  A Roman guard would report and conspire to their commander not the Jewish authority. 



> I have seen God face to face ..." -- Genesis 32:30
> 
> "No man hath seen God at any time..."-- John 1:18



 he saw Jesus the Son.  Not the the Father. 



> .. with God all things are possible." - Matthew 19:26
> 
> "...The LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron." -- Judges 1:19





19 The Lord was with the people of Judah, and they took possession of the hill country. But they failed to drive out the people living in the plains, who had iron chariots.

 They failed.  All things are possible,  but you have to do your part, especially the old Testament servants of God. 



> "This is my covenant, ye shall keep,between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised." -- Genesis 17:10
> 
> "...if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you  nothing." -- Galatians 5:2



Galatians 5 is speaking to gentiles. These Gentiles were entering the New Covenant and were not required to take part in a Jewish old covenant tradition. God never required circumcision of them.


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> I  discredited Jewish scholars and you link a PBS site?
> 
> 
> I couldn't open the first link.  I really don't know what it matters that guards were sent to the tomb and looking at it in Matthew I seriously think this was temple guards not Roman guards.  A Roman guard would report and conspire to their commander not the Jewish authority.
> 
> 
> 
> he saw Jesus the Son.  Not the the Father.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 19 The Lord was with the people of Judah, and they took possession of the hill country. But they failed to drive out the people living in the plains, who had iron chariots.
> 
> They failed.  All things are possible,  but you have to do your part, especially the old Testament servants of God.
> 
> 
> 
> Galatians 5 is speaking to gentiles. These Gentiles were entering the New Covenant and were not required to take part in a Jewish old covenant tradition. God never required circumcision of them.


You disagreed with Jewish scholars there was absolutely no discrediting going on at all. 
PBS interviews scholars. 
I used it to show you an example of what you say you had never researched.


Why would the Jews have to bribe their own guards?
Why would Temple guards report to the Governor?
Pilate would not give authority to Temple Guards to seal the tomb. It would have been carried out by his own men.

Roman guards would not report to Pharisees nor would they fall asleep or take bribes.
There would be a detail of about 20 of them not one or two.

So we have evidence of why Roman guards would be used and evidence why they would not act that way. And evidence of why Temple guards would be used but not act that way.
It leads me to believe that the author had no real idea of how things worked regarding Roman or Temple guards.

Yeah, god is with us and is invincible except when he is not with us then we have to do it ourselves which is always, especially always.

There were both Jewish and Gentile churches in Galatia. Paul wasnt clear on who he was talking to. Man seems to be the one who picks whichever they need to fit.


----------



## welderguy

TripleXBullies said:


> Why are you here then if not to respond? "Be nice, and then  maybe I'd choose to make it all clear for you." Is that what you meant???



No, what I meant was "be nice, because I'm trying to make something that seems pretty clear to me , also clear to you."


----------



## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> You disagreed with Jewish scholars there was absolutely no discrediting going on at all.
> PBS interviews scholars.
> I used it to show you an example of what you say you had never researched.
> 
> 
> Why would the Jews have to bribe their own guards?
> Why would Temple guards report to the Governor?
> Pilate would not give authority to Temple Guards to seal the tomb. It would have been carried out by his own men.
> 
> Roman guards would not report to Pharisees nor would they fall asleep or take bribes.
> There would be a detail of about 20 of them not one or two.
> 
> So we have evidence of why Roman guards would be used and evidence why they would not act that way. And evidence of why Temple guards would be used but not act that way.
> It leads me to believe that the author had no real idea of how things worked regarding Roman or Temple guards.
> 
> Yeah, god is with us and is invincible except when he is not with us then we have to do it ourselves which is always, especially always.
> 
> There were both Jewish and Gentile churches in Galatia. Paul wasnt clear on who he was talking to. Man seems to be the one who picks whichever they need to fit.




I thought when I said Jewish scholars are equal to Muslim scholars ...you would understand I was discrediting them..  PBS is a left wing rag,  surely you know this. 

The reason the Jew's needed to bribe them is these men were shaken up,  they were as dead men when they saw the Angel,  and they had to report to the Governor what had happened. 
It really makes no difference to me if they were Roman or Jewish.. I don't understand why we're even discussing this on a topic of biblical contradictions..? 


Of course there were both Israelites and Gentiles in Galatia... But Paul did indeed know who he was addressing.. Cause the Israelites were circumcised as babes.  It was an old custom to circumcise Gentiles upon becoming proselytes, but that was in entering the old covenant,  these Gentiles were entering the New covenant and circumcision was no longer a requirement.


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> I thought when I said Jewish scholars are equal to Muslim scholars ...you would understand I was discrediting them..  PBS is a left wing rag,  surely you know this.


You can say whatever you want. You can equate all that you want but I have not seen a single example of Jewish scholars being incapable.  Those scholars in regards to the Exodus have many archeologists and secular scholars that back up what they say.



hobbs27 said:


> The reason the Jew's needed to bribe them is these men were shaken up,  they were as dead men when they saw the Angel,  and they had to report to the Governor what had happened.
> It really makes no difference to me if they were Roman or Jewish.. I don't understand why we're even discussing this on a topic of biblical contradictions..?


That is a nonsensical reason to bribe them. It makes no sense.
Temple guards would not have to report to the Governor. 
Roman guards would not have to be bribed to report to their own boss.
Roman guards who fell aslepp on duty would not take a bribe knowing they would be killed for derelection of duty.
There would be at least 20 Roman guards on a detail.

You do not understand what all this has to do with bible errors and contradictions for the same reasons that the authors did not understand.
Neither of you are familiar with the ways of what you are talking about.  




hobbs27 said:


> Of course there were both Israelites and Gentiles in Galatia... But Paul did indeed know who he was addressing.. Cause the Israelites were circumcised as babes.  It was an old custom to circumcise Gentiles upon becoming proselytes, but that was in entering the old covenant,  these Gentiles were entering the New covenant and circumcision was no longer a requirement.



http://contradictionsinthebible.com/is-the-covenant-of-circumcision-an-eternal-covenant-or-not/


----------



## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> You can say whatever you want. You can equate all that you want but I have not seen a single example of Jewish scholars being incapable.  Those scholars in regards to the Exodus have many archeologists and secular scholars that back up what they say.
> 
> 
> That is a nonsensical reason to bribe them. It makes no sense.
> Temple guards would not have to report to the Governor.
> Roman guards would not have to be bribed to report to their own boss.
> Roman guards who fell aslepp on duty would not take a bribe knowing they would be killed for derelection of duty.
> There would be at least 20 Roman guards on a detail.
> 
> You do not understand what all this has to do with bible errors and contradictions for the same reasons that the authors did not understand.
> Neither of you are familiar with the ways of what you are talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://contradictionsinthebible.com/is-the-covenant-of-circumcision-an-eternal-covenant-or-not/





As for the guards.  It was probably little importance to the Roman's whether the body was stolen or not.  I doubt they wasted their resources guarding a tomb.  It was of utmost importance to the Jew.  They thought they had finally put this Messiah business behind them,  and they wanted to make sure of it.  It was then important to them to make up a story,  because the truth would be detrimental to them. 

The link. I glanced at it,   I'm not going to spend much time on it unless you can give me a logical reason Paul would be addressing adult Israelites about circumcision.  They had been circumcised as babes.


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> As for the guards.  It was probably little importance to the Roman's whether the body was stolen or not.  I doubt they wasted their resources guarding a tomb.  It was of utmost importance to the Jew.  They thought they had finally put this Messiah business behind them,  and they wanted to make sure of it.  It was then important to them to make up a story,  because the truth would be detrimental to them.


I am going to use a reply from someone else in another forum which ties into what I have deducing all along that if the guards were Roman the story does not make sense and if the guards were Jewish the story does not make sense and both reasons are because Matthew was not there, had no idea of how things worked and could not accurately report detailed conversations had between people that he never met.

"You are quite right to notice that, among the New Testament gospels, the story of the soldiers guarding Jesus’ tomb appears only in Matthew’s Gospel. It also appears in Peter’s Gospel, but this gospel was so clearly based onCensoredMatthewCensoredthat it is not independent testimony. We ought to assume that the (anonymous) author of Matthew’s Gospel could not have known this because he relied on Mark’s Gospel for almost everything he knew about the life and mission of Jesus. In literary terms, the narrator of this account is third person and omniscient. There is no suggestion that the author (Matthew or otherwise) was present when the priests and Pharisees petitioned Pilate to set a watch, nor that they were present when the priests gave the soldiers large sums of money to say the disciples came and took the body of Jesus, yet the narrator knows everything that is said in each place and time and even knows what people were thinking.

It beggars belief that, although such an event had never before happened, the Jewish authorities somehow knew exactly what to expect. It is also highly implausible the Roman governor would have believed the disciples would take Jesus’ body and claim he was risen and, based on that belief set a detachment of soldiers to guard the tomb. Moreover, if word got around that the soldiers had been sleeping while ostensibly on watch yet were not punished for this, Pilate himself could have faced discipline from the governor in Syria.

From a historical perspective we can dismiss the story of the soldiers guarding the tomb as a Matthean elaboration. Although it would seem from the story that the soldiers were Romans, we need not concern ourselves with this because there was no guard."






hobbs27 said:


> The link. I glanced at it,   I'm not going to spend much time on it unless you can give me a logical reason Paul would be addressing adult Israelites about circumcision.  They had been circumcised as babes.


Wasn't Paul the guy that later had Timothy circumcised  so that the Jews better accepted him?


----------



## welderguy

Timothy had a Greek father. For this reason, he had not been circumcised.

A better example for you to use would have been Titus.


----------



## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> I am going to use a reply from someone else in another forum which ties into what I have deducing all along that if the guards were Roman the story does not make sense and if the guards were Jewish the story does not make sense and both reasons are because Matthew was not there, had no idea of how things worked and could not accurately report detailed conversations had between people that he never met.
> 
> "You are quite right to notice that, among the New Testament gospels, the story of the soldiers guarding Jesus’ tomb appears only in Matthew’s Gospel. It also appears in Peter’s Gospel, but this gospel was so clearly based onCensoredMatthewCensoredthat it is not independent testimony. We ought to assume that the (anonymous) author of Matthew’s Gospel could not have known this because he relied on Mark’s Gospel for almost everything he knew about the life and mission of Jesus. In literary terms, the narrator of this account is third person and omniscient. There is no suggestion that the author (Matthew or otherwise) was present when the priests and Pharisees petitioned Pilate to set a watch, nor that they were present when the priests gave the soldiers large sums of money to say the disciples came and took the body of Jesus, yet the narrator knows everything that is said in each place and time and even knows what people were thinking.
> 
> It beggars belief that, although such an event had never before happened, the Jewish authorities somehow knew exactly what to expect. It is also highly implausible the Roman governor would have believed the disciples would take Jesus’ body and claim he was risen and, based on that belief set a detachment of soldiers to guard the tomb. Moreover, if word got around that the soldiers had been sleeping while ostensibly on watch yet were not punished for this, Pilate himself could have faced discipline from the governor in Syria.
> 
> From a historical perspective we can dismiss the story of the soldiers guarding the tomb as a Matthean elaboration. Although it would seem from the story that the soldiers were Romans, we need not concern ourselves with this because there was no guard."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wasn't Paul the guy that later had Timothy circumcised  so that the Jews better accepted him?



Matthew may not have been present at the events but he knew what was going on,  and even though his Gospel account is the only one that mentions the guarding of the tomb,  it doesn't contradict other accounts.  It compliments them. 

 Matthew was an apostle an therefore an inspired author,  much like Moses that gave us the Pentateuch . He wasn't there, but God gave him the story. Im not so sure the Genesis story is an actual creation story,  but I am sure it is accurate.


As for Timothy.  Yes Paul had him circumcised.  My friends upstairs get upset when I bring this fact up,  but the cross did not end the old covenant.  It was the parousia that finally ended it.  We see in Hebrews 8:13, the Old covenant was still in effect, albeit almost gone and vanishing. 

 Timothys mother was a Jew,  she had taught him Torah.  His father a Greek that didn't have him circumcised as a babe.  Paul had him circumcised because he would be considered a Jew by the Jew's and Jesus had told them.  Until heaven and earth passed ( Temple, Priesthood, Jewish economy, Covenant),  not one iota of the law would pass.  It was law,  that Timothy be circumcised. 
  Later Paul denies Titus be circumcised,  because Titus was a gentile. Paul stood up for these Gentile Christians,  explaining they need not be circumcised because they weren't given the Law.


----------



## hobbs27

I'm seeing a pattern to these links and ideas about contradictions.  These people claiming contradictions are either basing it on man's tradition of what the Bible says,  or basing it on a very uneducated.. Yes ignorant understanding of the Bible. 

Im beginning to think it takes more faith ( belief in things unseen) to deny the Bible,  than it does to accept it.


----------



## WaltL1

hobbs27 said:


> I'm seeing a pattern to these links and ideas about contradictions.  These people claiming contradictions are either basing it on man's tradition of what the Bible says,  or basing it on a very uneducated.. Yes ignorant understanding of the Bible.
> 
> Im beginning to think it takes more faith ( belief in things unseen) to deny the Bible,  than it does to accept it.





> are either basing it on man's tradition of what the Bible says,


Just a question -
if a company produced a set of assembly instructions that ships with their product and the vast majority of the customers looks at the instructions say "huh?", tosses them aside and then figures it out themselves (sound familiar?) is it the customer's fault or are the instructions not communicated in an effective way for the purpose intended?
Please try to stick strictly to the question which contains no mention of the Bible or religion.


----------



## hobbs27

WaltL1 said:


> Just a question -
> if a company produced a set of assembly instructions that ships with their product and the vast majority of the customers looks at the instructions say "huh?", tosses them aside and then figures it out themselves (sound familiar?) is it the customer's fault or are the instructions not communicated in an effective way for the purpose intended?
> Please try to stick strictly to the question which contains no mention of the Bible or religion.




If said company wrote their manual thousands of years ago and used many terms that were figurative and understandable to their culture,  then later on someone of yet another culture and two languages later reassemble the text with the best of their ability, would you attempt to learn the original language and culture to get a better understanding or accept what interpreters concluded hundreds of years ago with limited knowledge?


----------



## WaltL1

hobbs27 said:


> If said company wrote their manual thousands of years ago and used many terms that were figurative and understandable to their culture,  then later on someone of yet another culture and two languages later reassemble the text with the best of their ability, would you attempt to learn the original language and culture to get a better understanding or accept what interpreters concluded hundreds of years ago with limited knowledge?


I have tor reject your answer regardless of what it is because YOU very obviously injected religion into it and that's what is influencing your response.
Not the question I asked.


----------



## hobbs27

WaltL1 said:


> I have tor reject your answer regardless of what it is because YOU very obviously injected religion into it and that's what is influencing your response.
> Not the question I asked.



No, I said nothing about religion.  You obviously tried to compare the Bible to an instruction manual,  and referred to someone throwing the instruction manual out to figure the assembly out on your own.  I assume the comment (sound familiar?)  was pointed at me.

Well if we are going to make comparisons,  let's at least make them apples to apples.  The Bible is not assembly instructions.  It's the story of God's covenental relationship with man since Adam was first brought into covenant all the way to Jesus establishing the eternal new covenant.  It's full of poetry,  apocalyptic languages,  both literal and figurative.  It spans the cultural periods of Hebraic and Hellenistic . It's obvious the Pharisee during Christ's earthly ministry had lost sight of the meanings of much of their own scrolls.  Cultural differences were affecting this. 

If I told you today that my uncle,  bought the farm,  or kicked the can, you would know he had died.  But thousands of years from now if someone of a different language and different culture tried to interpret my writing to you,  they probably wouldn't know what that meant,  especially if they were like many people today and wanted to keep a strict literal interpretation.
This is why I don't accept just any old interpretation or thought.


----------



## WaltL1

> Originally Posted by WaltL1
> Just a question -
> if a company produced a set of assembly instructions that ships with their product and the vast majority of the customers looks at the instructions say "huh?", tosses them aside and then figures it out themselves (sound familiar?) is it the customer's fault or are the instructions not communicated in an effective way for the purpose intended?
> Please try to stick strictly to the question which contains no mention of the Bible or religion.





hobbs27 said:


> If said company wrote their manual thousands of years ago and used many terms that were figurative and understandable to their culture,  then later on someone of yet another culture and two languages later reassemble the text with the best of their ability, would you attempt to learn the original language and culture to get a better understanding or accept what interpreters concluded hundreds of years ago with limited knowledge?


Hobbs27, I hope you don't mind and I dont have any negative intent here, but this is a perfect example of what I was talk about before about the "psychology" of all of this.
I asked you this question and lets break it down -


> if a company produced a set of assembly instructions that ships with their product


The company is giving you the instructions, regardless of when the instructions were written, and saying "here use these".


> the vast majority of the customers looks at the instructions say "huh?",


The vast majority of the customers don't understand the instructions, regardless of when they were written, that the company gives them to use.


> tosses them aside and then figures it out themselves


They still want the product but since they don't understand the instructions they have no choice but to figure it out themselves.
Then based on the information I asked this question -


> is it the customer's fault or are the instructions not communicated in an effective way for the purpose intended?


The last thing I said was -


> Please try to stick strictly to the question which contains no mention of the Bible or religion


So psychologically, here's what happened -
You read the question.
The question, which made no mention of God, the Bible or anything religious, triggered a defense mechanism because YOU saw it is a threat. And yes we both know why.
Because of that threat that YOU created, what came out of your brain, for all intents and purposes, was to defend the instructions in response to the question I asked.
Because you viewed it as defending the Bible.
That's some psychological acrobatics right there and nothing can do it like the subject of religion can.
That's interesting to me.


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> Matthew may not have been present at the events but he knew what was going on,  and even though his Gospel account is the only one that mentions the guarding of the tomb,  it doesn't contradict other accounts.  It compliments them.
> 
> Matthew was an apostle an therefore an inspired author,  much like Moses that gave us the Pentateuch . He wasn't there, but God gave him the story. Im not so sure the Genesis story is an actual creation story,  but I am sure it is accurate.
> 
> 
> As for Timothy.  Yes Paul had him circumcised.  My friends upstairs get upset when I bring this fact up,  but the cross did not end the old covenant.  It was the parousia that finally ended it.  We see in Hebrews 8:13, the Old covenant was still in effect, albeit almost gone and vanishing.
> 
> Timothys mother was a Jew,  she had taught him Torah.  His father a Greek that didn't have him circumcised as a babe.  Paul had him circumcised because he would be considered a Jew by the Jew's and Jesus had told them.  Until heaven and earth passed ( Temple, Priesthood, Jewish economy, Covenant),  not one iota of the law would pass.  It was law,  that Timothy be circumcised.
> Later Paul denies Titus be circumcised,  because Titus was a gentile. Paul stood up for these Gentile Christians,  explaining they need not be circumcised because they weren't given the Law.


The author of Matthew was absolutely positively not the apostle Matthew. There are very few scholars who would agree with you
.
I know the story and lineage details of Timothy.
And yet while Paul is telling others that circumcision  is not necessary to come to Jesus he felt that in order to able to sell the Jews Christianity, he better get Timothy trimmed or else rhe Jews wouldnt even listen to him.
.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Timothy had a Greek father. For this reason, he had not been circumcised.
> 
> A better example for you to use would have been Titus.


Dont you worry about me. I am three steps ahead and for what I want said, Timothy is my guy.


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> If said company wrote their manual thousands of years ago and used many terms that were figurative and understandable to their culture,  then later on someone of yet another culture and two languages later reassemble the text with the best of their ability, would you attempt to learn the original language and culture to get a better understanding or accept what interpreters concluded hundreds of years ago with limited knowledge?



These writers were just a go between God and the rest of mankind.
If God cannot forsee the problems with what he told, inspired, guided, made them write and then he and his followers blame time, culture,  translations as the problem then it is about time the followers re-examine the capabilities of the object of their worship.


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> No, I said nothing about religion.  You obviously tried to compare the Bible to an instruction manual,  and referred to someone throwing the instruction manual out to figure the assembly out on your own.  I assume the comment (sound familiar?)  was pointed at me.
> 
> Well if we are going to make comparisons,  let's at least make them apples to apples.  The Bible is not assembly instructions.  It's the story of God's covenental relationship with man since Adam was first brought into covenant all the way to Jesus establishing the eternal new covenant.  It's full of poetry,  apocalyptic languages,  both literal and figurative.  It spans the cultural periods of Hebraic and Hellenistic . It's obvious the Pharisee during Christ's earthly ministry had lost sight of the meanings of much of their own scrolls.  Cultural differences were affecting this.
> 
> If I told you today that my uncle,  bought the farm,  or kicked the can, you would know he had died.  But thousands of years from now if someone of a different language and different culture tried to interpret my writing to you,  they probably wouldn't know what that meant,  especially if they were like many people today and wanted to keep a strict literal interpretation.
> This is why I don't accept just any old interpretation or thought.


Is your god no more insightful than the future readers of his work?


----------



## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> Is your god no more insightful than the future readers of his work?



They almighty God reaches His believers through a spiritual calling and the testimony of others. Most people become believers with very little knowledge of scripture,  but in the faith wanting to be closer,  and know more,  we study the word.

Few people had access to the Bible or the scrolls while Christianity was growing to be the world's largest religion.


----------



## WaltL1

hobbs27 said:


> No, I said nothing about religion.  You obviously tried to compare the Bible to an instruction manual,  and referred to someone throwing the instruction manual out to figure the assembly out on your own.  I assume the comment (sound familiar?)  was pointed at me.
> 
> Well if we are going to make comparisons,  let's at least make them apples to apples.  The Bible is not assembly instructions.  It's the story of God's covenental relationship with man since Adam was first brought into covenant all the way to Jesus establishing the eternal new covenant.  It's full of poetry,  apocalyptic languages,  both literal and figurative.  It spans the cultural periods of Hebraic and Hellenistic . It's obvious the Pharisee during Christ's earthly ministry had lost sight of the meanings of much of their own scrolls.  Cultural differences were affecting this.
> 
> If I told you today that my uncle,  bought the farm,  or kicked the can, you would know he had died.  But thousands of years from now if someone of a different language and different culture tried to interpret my writing to you,  they probably wouldn't know what that meant,  especially if they were like many people today and wanted to keep a strict literal interpretation.
> This is why I don't accept just any old interpretation or thought.


YOU are making the comparison. Why? 
The question was about assembly instructions and made no mention of God, the Bible or religion.
Your responses continue to be about defending the Bible.
Why?
Again the question was about instructions the company provided with their product and their intended use wasn't it?


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> They almighty God reaches His believers through a spiritual calling and the testimony of others. Most people become believers with very little knowledge of scripture,  but in the faith wanting to be closer,  and know more,  we study the word.
> 
> Few people had access to the Bible or the scrolls while Christianity was growing to be the world's largest religion.


Then dont make excuses now when many people can and do read for the lack of foresight of your god then.
He is either all knowing and all powerful all the time and would have made understanding his words unconditional and universal and timeless or he is a figment of believers needs.


----------



## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> The author of Matthew was absolutely positively not the apostle Matthew. There are very few scholars who would agree with you
> .
> I know the story and lineage details of Timothy.
> And yet while Paul is telling others that circumcision  is not necessary to come to Jesus he felt that in order to able to sell the Jews Christianity, he better get Timothy trimmed or else rhe Jews wouldnt even listen to him.
> .



My research reveals Matthew aka Levi as the author and a written date in the ad 60's.


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> My research reveals Matthew aka Levi as the author and a written date in the ad 60's.



Keep researching


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> My research reveals Matthew aka Levi as the author and a written date in the ad 60's.



So for a guy that "was there", why did he have to copy Mark?
Who was Mark again?


----------



## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> Keep researching



I'm continually researching,  so I went back on my notes on this,  and found Matthew very well was probably written before the ad60's. Matthew and Mark were the first two Gospels recorded.  

Luke and acts were written before Paul was released from prison in ad 63. And Luke claims that he was aware of two other gospel accounts before he wrote his Gospel. Luke 1:1. Luke's gospel contains unique material that's found in Matthew or Mark,  but not both. Therefore it had to be Matthew and Marks gospels he was referring to. Also lukes Gospel shows no awareness of Johns Gospel, suggesting John was written after Luke.


----------



## WaltL1

hobbs27 said:


> No, I said nothing about religion. I assume the comment (sound familiar?)  was pointed at me.
> 
> Well if we are going to make comparisons,  let's at least make them apples to apples.  The Bible is not assembly instructions.  It's the story of God's covenental relationship with man since Adam was first brought into covenant all the way to Jesus establishing the eternal new covenant.  It's full of poetry,  apocalyptic languages,  both literal and figurative.  It spans the cultural periods of Hebraic and Hellenistic . It's obvious the Pharisee during Christ's earthly ministry had lost sight of the meanings of much of their own scrolls.  Cultural differences were affecting this.
> 
> If I told you today that my uncle,  bought the farm,  or kicked the can, you would know he had died.  But thousands of years from now if someone of a different language and different culture tried to interpret my writing to you,  they probably wouldn't know what that meant,  especially if they were like many people today  You obviously tried to compare the Bible to an instruction manual,  and referred to someone throwing the instruction manual out to figure the assembly out on your own.  and wanted to keep a strict literal interpretation.
> This is why I don't accept just any old interpretation or thought.





> referred to someone throwing the instruction manual out to figure the assembly out on your own. I assume the comment (sound familiar?)  was pointed at me.


It was pointed at you. It was about how everybody looks at the instructions to put something together, tosses them aside and figures it out. Its pretty standard "funny" about everyday life as a consumer.
But because you've already psychologically invested yourself you didn't even get through the whole question without turning it into this -  


> You obviously tried to compare the Bible to an instruction manual


.

Its amazing the psychological hoops you are going through for such a simple, non threatening question.
What I meant was what I asked. It doesn't compare anything, it doesn't reference anything else. Its all right there.


----------



## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> So for a guy that "was there", why did he have to copy Mark?
> Who was Mark again?



Or did Mark copy him?  Mark was John Mark.  Barnabas cousin.


----------



## hobbs27

WaltL1 said:


> It was pointed at you. It was about how everybody looks at the instructions to put something together, tosses them aside and figures it out. Its pretty standard "funny" about everyday life as a consumer.
> But because you've already psychologically invested yourself you didn't even get through the whole question without turning it into this -
> .
> 
> Its amazing the psychological hoops you are going through for such a simple, non threatening question.
> What I meant was what I asked. It doesn't compare anything, it doesn't reference anything else. Its all right there.



You ask a simple question about an instruction manual in a thread that has morphed into a discussion about the validity of scripture, and it's some kind of psychology reason I assume you are referring to the Bible? 

Well alrighty then.


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> Or did Mark copy him?  Mark was John Mark.  Barnabas cousin.



I'll listen to your evidence.


----------



## WaltL1

hobbs27 said:


> You ask a simple question about an instruction manual in a thread that has morphed into a discussion about the validity of scripture, and it's some kind of psychology reason I assume you are referring to the Bible?
> 
> Well alrighty then.


From the very beginning I quoted to what I responded to -


> are either basing it on man's tradition of what the Bible says,


Thats not about the Bible that's about man and his traditions. And you posed it in a negative manner. As though "they just aren't following the directions".
I posed a question addressing why man may come up with these traditions as opposed to just following the directions. Like the tradition of throwing away the instructions and figuring it out yourself because the instructions don't make sense to the majority of the people. And who's responsibility that is.
No mention of the Bible, what it says or when or how it was written in the question. Wasn't the subject.
YOU made it the subject.
YOU are making the comparison.
YOU obviously don't want to answer it.
The objects you are throwing out aren't shiny enough. I'm not distracted.


----------



## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> I'll listen to your evidence.



John Mark as the author of Mark.  Sometimes he goes by the name John alone.  Acts 13:5, 13 & 15:37.

Sometimes Mark alone.  Col. 4:10, 2 Tim. 4:11. Philem. 24, 1Peter 5:13

And twice by both names.  Acts 12:12,25

He was Baranabus cousin Col. 4:10

Paul acknowledged him as faithful to his ministry to the end 2Tim.4:11 although they had differences at one time . Acts 15:38


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> John Mark as the author of Mark.  Sometimes he goes by the name John alone.  Acts 13:5, 13 & 15:37.
> 
> Sometimes Mark alone.  Col. 4:10, 2 Tim. 4:11. Philem. 24, 1Peter 5:13
> 
> And twice by both names.  Acts 12:12,25
> 
> He was Baranabus cousin Col. 4:10
> 
> Paul acknowledged him as faithful to his ministry to the end 2Tim.4:11 although they had differences at one time . Acts 15:38



Those things I know. I should have been more clear.
I was asking about the timeline when Mark was written.


----------



## hobbs27

WaltL1 said:


> From the very beginning I quoted to what I responded to -
> 
> Thats not about the Bible that's about man and his traditions. And you posed it in a negative manner. As though "they just aren't following the directions".
> I posed a question addressing why man may come up with these traditions as opposed to just following the directions. Like the tradition of throwing away the instructions and figuring it out yourself because the instructions don't make sense to the majority of the people. And who's responsibility that is.
> No mention of the Bible, what it says or when or how it was written in the question. Wasn't the subject.
> YOU made it the subject.
> YOU are making the comparison.
> YOU obviously don't want to answer it.
> The objects you are throwing out aren't shiny enough. I'm not distracted.



Maybe I didn't understand,  not from some psychological reaction,  but because I'm also involved in another conversation here,  elsewhere,  and I've got a truck load of tomatoes I'm putting up,  just typing a few comments in between cannings.

If it's a question of why men's traditions have interfered,  we could spend days in that discussion.  Is that what you're asking.. Why men's traditions influence interpretation?


----------



## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> Those things I know. I should have been more clear.
> I was asking about the timeline when Mark was written.



I think I covered that in the comment above.  luke was written before Paul was released from prison in ad63. Luke acknowledged two other Gospels before his.  Luke took things from Matthew and Mark,  that were unique to each, but never makes awareness of John's Gospel. The logical conclusion.  Matthew and Mark are written before Luke,  and Luke is written before ad63.


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> I think I covered that in the comment above.  luke was written before Paul was released from prison in ad63. Luke acknowledged two other Gospels before his.  Luke took things from Matthew and Mark,  that were unique to each, but never makes awareness of John's Gospel. The logical conclusion.  Matthew and Mark are written before Luke,  and Luke is written before ad63.



I hear your claims. I am a history fan. I would love if you could provide factual evidence that backs it all up.

I am not disputing anything about Luke.
I would like to know why Matthew was written before Mark. More importantly when.

Then we can get into who Matthew is or is not.


----------



## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> I hear your claims. I am a history fan. I would love if you could provide factual evidence that backs it all up.
> 
> I am not disputing anything about Luke.
> I would like to know why Matthew was written before Mark. More importantly when.
> 
> Then we can into who Matthew is or is not.



Oh... I have a book here somewhere that explains all the dates of the gospels.  Off the top of my head right now I can't say if Mark or Matthew was first,  just both were before Luke wrote his,  so both are well before ad63.

I'll see if I can find my chart and the proof text it uses.


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> Oh... I have a book here somewhere that explains all the dates of the gospels.  Off the top of my head right now I can't say if Mark or Matthew was first,  just both were before Luke wrote his,  so both are well before ad63.
> 
> I'll see if I can find my chart and the proof text it uses.


We have the world of info at our fingertips. I like find a source and then back up that source with another and another until I am confident that something is more likely than not or less likely than so.


----------



## WaltL1

hobbs27 said:


> Maybe I didn't understand,  not from some psychological reaction,  but because I'm also involved in another conversation here,  elsewhere,  and I've got a truck load of tomatoes I'm putting up,  just typing a few comments in between cannings.
> 
> If it's a question of why men's traditions have interfered,  we could spend days in that discussion.  Is that what you're asking.. Why men's traditions influence interpretation?


No this is what I'm asking -


> Just a question -
> if a company produced a set of assembly instructions that ships with their product and the vast majority of the customers looks at the instructions say "huh?", tosses them aside and then figures it out themselves (sound familiar?) is it the customer's fault or are the instructions not communicated in an effective way for the purpose intended?
> Please try to stick strictly to the question which contains no mention of the Bible or religion.


The thought of a truckload of fresh tomatoes almost distracted me though. Ok it did distract me. 'mater and mayo sandwich on white bread here I come


----------



## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> We have the world of info at our fingertips. I like find a source and then back up that source with another and another until I am confident that something is more likely than not or less likely than so.



If you love history then you know what happened to Jerusalem between 66-70ad. You also know this event was predicted by Jesus in Matthew 24,  Mark 13, and Luke 21.

There's not a single verse in the Bible that refers to that event as past.  The largest biblical apocalypse ever to happen,  and not a single mention of it.  This proves to me,  all scripture including Revelation is pre 70ad. There's internal evidence of pre 70ad  Revelation,  and historical evidence.  The only evidence of a late day is here say.


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> Oh... I have a book here somewhere that explains all the dates of the gospels.  Off the top of my head right now I can't say if Mark or Matthew was first,  just both were before Luke wrote his,  so both are well before ad63.
> 
> I'll see if I can find my chart and the proof text it uses.


The gospel of Matthew is written in the 3rd person and in a nut shell the differences between Matthew and Mark are where the author of Matthew who was more knowledgable about local customs and traditions than Mark was.
80% of Mark is contained in Matthew.


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> If you love history then you know what happened to Jerusalem between 66-70ad. You also know this event was predicted by Jesus in Matthew 24,  Mark 13, and Luke 21.
> 
> There's not a single verse in the Bible that refers to that event as past.  The largest biblical apocalypse ever to happen,  and not a single mention of it.  This proves to me,  all scripture including Revelation is pre 70ad. There's internal evidence of pre 70ad  Revelation,  and historical evidence.  The only evidence of a late day is here say.


I cannot take credit for this as being my own. It is said better than I would have said it.

Raymond E. Brown says in An Introduction to the New Testament, page 164, there is wide scholarly agreement that Mark's Gospel was written in the late 60s or just after 70, and therefore the destruction of the temple was imminent or had already occurred. Burton L. Mack goes as far as to say, in Who Wrote the New Testament, page 152, it would not have made sense before the war had run its course and the tragic fate of the city was known. The prophecies in Mark chapter 13 are clearly of the First Roman-Jewish War and of the civil war that raged concurrently within the Jerusalem walls, but these prophecies were written with after the event. Had Jesus prophesied the destruction of the temple, he would have been correct, but this prophecy was followed by another prophecy that he would return on clouds of glory within the lifetimes of those to whom he spoke, an event that did not occur as prophesied. Since it is not possible for Jesus to make a prophecy that does not come true, these were not his prophecies and were actually written at the end of the War.

Most scholars now believe that Matthewand Luke were substantially derived from Mark's Gospel. In fact, John Dominic Crossan, in The Birth of Christianity, page 110-111, speaks of a massive consensus among scholars in favour of Markan priority. On this information we can say that the Gospels of Matthew and Luke, being written some time later than Mark, were certainly written after 70 CE. Acts of the Apostles was written some time afterLuke, although it does not mention the destruction of the temple nor the Roman-Jewish War of 66-70.

John's Gospel is generally dated 80-110 CE, although critical scholars, who see it as influenced by Luke's Gospel, would place in towards the later end of this range. The three Johannine epistles were written shortly after the Gospel.

Thirteen epistles have been attributed to the apostle Paul: Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Philemon, Galatians, Philippians and 1 Thessalonians, but five of these are regarded as disputed. Paul's genuine epistles were, of course, written before 70 CE. Known to critical scholars as pseudo-Pauline epistles, Ephesians, Colossians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy and Titus are thought to have been written between 70 Ce and the first half of the second century.

Critical scholars place the First Epistle of Peter no earlier than 80 CE, and the Epistle of Jude and the Second Epistle of Peter in the first half of the second century. Jude, perhaps carelessly, self-identifies as written long after the apostolic era, while scholars have noted that 2 Peter uses material from the earlier Epistle of Jude.

The Book of Revelation is almost universally accepted as having been written after 70 CE


----------



## bullethead

The filters in here are atrocious. Any C/P where biblical scipture titles are used it throws the word "Censored" in there.


----------



## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> I cannot take credit for this as being my own. It is said better than I would have said it.
> 
> Raymond E. Brown says in An Introduction to the New Testament, page 164, there is wide scholarly agreement that Mark's Gospel was written in the late 60s or just after 70, and therefore the destruction of the temple was imminent or had already occurred. Burton L. Mack goes as far as to say, in Who Wrote the New Testament, page 152, it would not have made sense before the war had run its course and the tragic fate of the city was known. The prophecies in Mark chapter 13 are clearly of the First Roman-Jewish War and of the civil war that raged concurrently within the Jerusalem walls, but these prophecies were written with after the event. Had Jesus prophesied the destruction of the temple, he would have been correct, but this prophecy was followed by another prophecy that he would return on clouds of glory within the lifetimes of those to whom he spoke, an event that did not occur as prophesied. Since it is not possible for Jesus to make a prophecy that does not come true, these were not his prophecies and were actually written at the end of the War.
> 
> Most scholars now believe that Matthewand Luke were substantially derived from Mark's Gospel. In fact, John Dominic Crossan, in The Birth of Christianity, page 110-111, speaks of a massive consensus among scholars in favour of Markan priority. On this information we can say that the Gospels of Matthew and Luke, being written some time later than Mark, were certainly written after 70 CE. Acts of the Apostles was written some time afterLuke, although it does not mention the destruction of the temple nor the Roman-Jewish War of 66-70.
> 
> John's Gospel is generally dated 80-110 CE, although critical scholars, who see it as influenced by Luke's Gospel, would place in towards the later end of this range. The three Johannine epistles were written shortly after the Gospel.
> 
> Thirteen epistles have been attributed to the apostle Paul: Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Philemon, Galatians, Philippians and 1 Thessalonians, but five of these are regarded as disputed. Paul's genuine epistles were, of course, written before 70 CE. Known to critical scholars as pseudo-Pauline epistles, Ephesians, Colossians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy and Titus are thought to have been written between 70 Ce and the first half of the second century.
> 
> Critical scholars place the First Epistle of Peter no earlier than 80 CE, and the Epistle of Jude and the Second Epistle of Peter in the first half of the second century. Jude, perhaps carelessly, self-identifies as written long after the apostolic era, while scholars have noted that 2 Peter uses material from the earlier Epistle of Jude.
> 
> The Book of Revelation is almost universally accepted as having been written after 70 CE




And this is a perfect example of how futurist discredit the Bible they claim to believe in. 

Jesus did return.  Not literally on clouds,  but His appearance was in the destruction itself,  just as the Father had appeared in clouds in previous judgments of cities. This is why a close study of the Old testament and a learning of apocalyptic language and it's figurative uses are very important.


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> And this is a perfect example of how futurist discredit the Bible they claim to believe in.
> 
> Jesus did return.  Not literally on clouds,  but His appearance was in the destruction itself,  just as the Father had appeared in clouds in previous judgments of cities. This is why a close study of the Old testament and a learning of apocalyptic language and it's figurative uses are very important.


I was going more for the dates of the gospels not the unbelieveble left to interpretation.


----------



## hobbs27

This isn't what I was looking for,  its a longer read than I like to link to here  but you can scan it quickly or read it all.  This puts all the NT books pre 70ad , and gives reason to support it. 

http://www.preteristcosmos.com/Apost.Can.series.pdf


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> This isn't what I was looking for,  its a longer read than I like to link to here  but you can scan it quickly or read it all.  This puts all the NT books pre 70ad , and gives reason to support it.
> 
> http://www.preteristcosmos.com/Apost.Can.series.pdf


Appreciated.
I have been finding pre and post 70 info for years and each make compelling cases.

But we are drifting away from the Matthew/Mark thing.


----------



## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> Appreciated.
> I have been finding pre and post 70 info for years and each make compelling cases.
> 
> But we are drifting away from the Matthew/Mark thing.



So,  what about the obvious parallel of Matthew 24-25 
1Thess. 4
1Cor 15

All just orchestrated after the event? Which all of these put the parousia and resurrection at the destruction of the Temple... So does Daniel12


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> So,  what about the obvious parallel of Matthew 24-25
> 1Thess. 4
> 1Cor 15
> 
> All just orchestrated after the event? Which all of these put the parousia and resurrection at the destruction of the Temple... So does Daniel12


So you have a Preterist view in that everything was fulfilled by or in 70ad??


----------



## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> So you have a Preterist view in that everything was fulfilled by or in 70ad??



Yes..


----------



## atlashunter

red neck richie said:


> God doesn't only use Christians for his will to be done. He may be using you right now in fact and you don't even know it.



So what you're saying is your god performs miracles for people praying to other gods knowing that will further strengthen their faith in the false god? And your god does this with the intention of casting them into a lake of fire for believing in the wrong god?


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> Yes..



I understand your posts much better now but I couldn't disagree more.
There are just too many twists and turns and hoops to jump through to connect those dots
.
You are saying that Jesus came back within that generation, just that he returned in the form of the Romans and as an eye from the sky in the clouds.

That is a huge stretch


----------



## atlashunter

bullethead said:


> So you have a Preterist view in that everything was fulfilled by or in 70ad??



Much ado about nothing apparently. The messiah made his grand return and nobody noticed.


----------



## bullethead

atlashunter said:


> Much ado about nothing apparently. The messiah made his grand return and nobody noticed.



And nothing that was supposed to happen afterwards has.


----------



## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> I understand your posts much better now but I couldn't disagree more.
> There are just too many twists and turns and hoops to jump through to connect those dots
> .
> You are saying that Jesus came back within that generation, just that he returned in the form of the Romans and as an eye from the sky in the clouds.
> 
> That is a huge stretch




Yeah,  that would be a huge stretch. 

When God (came in the clouds)  in the Old Testament that was a judgment,  and the releasing of His wrath . 

Jesus came for the lost sheep of Israel.  Even after His death,  resurrection,  and ascension,  His Apostles were calling for the apostate Jew's to come into the church.. Because they were in the last days.. John said the sign of the anti Christ had come and from this they knew they were in the last hour. 

The only way the Bible makes any sense is to look at it through the eyes of fulfillment.  It requires a paradigm shift,  and then it's like a light just switched on and the scriptures connect perfectly and fluidly. 

It's not twisting,  it's allowing scripture to teach you,  by first ridding yourself of all preconceived ideas. 

Look at Luke 21 for instance.  It's the Olivet discourse and is about the destruction of the Temple in 70ad...but what does it say about those days of vengeance? 

The Destruction of Jerusalem
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled

Now,  considering all things written as for prophecy in Revelation is also written in old testament books such as Daniel.. The deal was sealed at 70ad...The Old covenant age was over,  and the new covenant was consummated.


----------



## hobbs27

Please disregard those emoticons I occasionally post in the top.  My finger must be hitting something on this phone.. They mean nothing.


----------



## hobbs27

atlashunter said:


> Much ado about nothing apparently. The messiah made his grand return and nobody noticed.



They noticed. 
Every Christian seeing the signs Jesus gave them in the olivet discourse,  fled to the hills as told.  Not a single Christian was killed per eyewitness Flavious Josephus. 
1.1 million Jew's killed,  95k taken into custody,  and 95k left behind with no Temple,  no priesthood,  no God.


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> Yeah,  that would be a huge stretch.
> 
> When God (came in the clouds)  in the Old Testament that was a judgment,  and the releasing of His wrath .
> 
> Jesus came for the lost sheep of Israel.  Even after His death,  resurrection,  and ascension,  His Apostles were calling for the apostate Jew's to come into the church.. Because they were in the last days.. John said the sign of the anti Christ had come and from this they knew they were in the last hour.
> 
> The only way the Bible makes any sense is to look at it through the eyes of fulfillment.  It requires a paradigm shift,  and then it's like a light just switched on and the scriptures connect perfectly and fluidly.
> 
> It's not twisting,  it's allowing scripture to teach you,  by first ridding yourself of all preconceived ideas.
> 
> Look at Luke 21 for instance.  It's the Olivet discourse and is about the destruction of the Temple in 70ad...but what does it say about those days of vengeance?
> 
> The Destruction of Jerusalem
> 20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled
> 
> Now,  considering all things written as for prophecy in Revelation is also written in old testament books such as Daniel.. The deal was sealed at 70ad...The Old covenant age was over,  and the new covenant was consummated.



I honestly believe that the only way the bible makes sense to You is that way. But that is what believers have to do. I think it is healthy to put thought into things and go beyond what is said in order to have it make sense on an individual level, but that doesn't guarantee that it is right for anyone else but you.

I happen to disagree, other agnostics disagree, I'd venture to bet that atheists disagree and I am not quite sure of an exact number but I would be confident in saying that more Christians disagree with your version than agree with it.


----------



## atlashunter

hobbs27 said:


> Maybe I didn't understand,  not from some psychological reaction,  but because I'm also involved in another conversation here,  elsewhere,  and I've got a truck load of tomatoes I'm putting up,  just typing a few comments in between cannings.
> 
> If it's a question of why men's traditions have interfered,  we could spend days in that discussion.  Is that what you're asking.. Why men's traditions influence interpretation?



His question was very easy to understand.


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> They noticed.
> Every Christian seeing the signs Jesus gave them in the olivet discourse,  fled to the hills as told.  Not a single Christian was killed per eyewitness Flavious Josephus.
> 1.1 million Jew's killed,  95k taken into custody,  and 95k left behind with no Temple,  no priesthood,  no God.


So has sin and evil diminished since 70ad?


----------



## atlashunter

hobbs27 said:


> They noticed.
> Every Christian seeing the signs Jesus gave them in the olivet discourse,  fled to the hills as told.  Not a single Christian was killed per eyewitness Flavious Josephus.
> 1.1 million Jew's killed,  95k taken into custody,  and 95k left behind with no Temple,  no priesthood,  no God.



Uh no they didn't. Sorry but if they had noticed then you would have Jews and Christians adhering to this viewpoint. You have neither. The Jewish and Christian tradition to this day is that the messiah is still to come. This was just another in a long line of instances of the Jews gettting their tails kicked.


----------



## hobbs27

atlashunter said:


> Uh no they didn't. Sorry but if they had noticed then you would have Jews and Christians adhering to this viewpoint. You have neither. The Jewish and Christian tradition to this day is that the messiah is still to come. This was just another in a long line of instances of the Jews gettting their tails kicked.



The Jew's that believed in Christ were the first century church,  along with Gentiles.  The apostles were Jew's,  the men of Galilee in Pentecost were Jew's. 

Those people calling themselves Jew's today belong to a made up religion after the fall of Jerusalem,  it's as fake and Islam.


----------



## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> So has sin and evil diminished since 70ad?



 Only inside the kingdom.


----------



## atlashunter

hobbs27 said:


> The Jew's that believed in Christ were the first century church,  along with Gentiles.  The apostles were Jew's,  the men of Galilee in Pentecost were Jew's.
> 
> Those people calling themselves Jew's today belong to a made up religion after the fall of Jerusalem,  it's as fake and Islam.



And neither the church from first century to today nor the Jews, fake or otherwise, have held that the messiah returned in 70 AD.


----------



## hobbs27

atlashunter said:


> And neither the church from first century to today nor the Jews, fake or otherwise, have held that the messiah returned in 70 AD.



I can provide many more than this if need be. 


100: The Odes of Solomon Â â€œBecause He is my Sun and His rays have lifted me up and His light hath dispelled all darkness from my face. In Him I HAVE acquired eyes and HAVE SEEN His HOLY DAY:Â  The way of error I have left, and have walked towards Him and have received salvation from Him, without grudging. I HAVE put on INCORRUPTION through His name: and have put off corruption by His grace. DEATH HAS BEEN DESTROYED before my face: and Sheol bath been abolished by my wordâ€�.

150: Melito â€“ Homily of the Pascha â€œWho will contend against me? Let him stand before me. It is I who delivered the condemned. It is I who gave life to the dead. It is I who RAISED UP THE BURIED. Who will argue with me? It is I, says Christ, who DESTROYED DEATH. It is I who triumphed over the enemy, and having trod down Hades, and bound the Strong Man, and HAVE SNATCHED UP MANKIND TO THE HEIGHTS OF HEAVEN.â€�

175: Irenaeus â€“ Against Heresies â€œthe temple constructed of stones was indeed then rebuilt (for as yet that law was observed which had been made upon tables of stone), yet no new covenant was given, but they used the Mosaic law until the coming of the Lord; but from the Lordâ€™s advent, the new covenant which brings back peace, and the law which gives life, has gone forth over the whole earth, as the prophets said: â€œFor out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem ; and He shall rebuke many people; and they shall break down their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruninghooks, and they shall no longer learn to fight.â€�

500: Andreas â€œAnd I saw, when he had opened the sixth seal, and behold there was a great earthquake, and the sun became as black as sackcloth of hair, and the whole moon became as blood. And the stars from heaven fell upon the earth, as a fig-tree casteth its green figs when it is shaken by the wind.â€� [Apocalypse 6:12-13] â€œThere are not wanting those who apply this passage to the siege and destruction of Jerusalem by Titus.â€�


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> Only inside the kingdom.



I was enjoying our conversation.

It has gotten weird.


----------



## hobbs27

"Do not be impatient, do not quarrel with one another; the great Judge, who will set all to rights, who will punish the wicked and reward the good, is at hand: he should be conceived by you to stand as near as one who is just knocking at /the door/ [Jas 5:7-9]. /The coming of the Lord/ to punish the wicked Jews was then very /nigh/, when St. James wrote this epistle ... ." -- Matthew Henry (1662 - 1714)



"The signs in the heavens, the darkening sun and falling stars [in Mt 24:29], refer to the falling of Jewish dignitaries, casting down of authorities and powers, long established, and signified the darkness that settled upon the Jewish state [at AD 70]. The sun of the Hebrew temple was darkened, the moon of the Jewish commonwealth was as blood, the stars of the Sanhedrin fell from their high seats of authority." -- Foy Wallace (1896 - 1979)

"_t is reported that he [John] ... passed over to Ephesus, where, as we have said, this present Apocalypse also was composed; which is a revelation of future things, inasmuch as forty years after the ascension of the Lord this tribulation came upon the Jews." -- Arethas of Caesarea (850 - 944)

"The belief that Christ's Second Advent, with its accompaniments of a resurrection and a judgment, took place at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem, rests on precisely the same basis as the expectation of these events ever taking place; namely, on the plain, emphatic, and continually-repeated statements of our Lord and His apostles given beforehand ... . [Jesus] himself predicted that these events would take place at the close of the Jewish dispensation. To Christian believers this affords the strongest possible presumption that they did take place, for to Christian believers His predictions are /history anticipated/! The /burden of proof/ in the argument rests not on those who assert, but on those who deny, the past advent. ... To deny the truth of His predictions because we are unable historically to verify a certain portion of them is simply to make manifest the shallowness of our faith in Him. To disprove the truth of those predictions would be to shake the Christian religion to its very foundations. Let God and God's Son be true, and, if need be, every mere man a liar!" -- Ernest Hampden-Cook (1860 - 1932)_


----------



## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> I was enjoying our conversation.
> 
> It has gotten weird.



just answering questions.


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> "Do not be impatient, do not quarrel with one another; the great Judge, who will set all to rights, who will punish the wicked and reward the good, is at hand: he should be conceived by you to stand as near as one who is just knocking at /the door/ [Jas 5:7-9]. /The coming of the Lord/ to punish the wicked Jews was then very /nigh/, when St. James wrote this epistle ... ." -- Matthew Henry (1662 - 1714)
> 
> 
> 
> "The signs in the heavens, the darkening sun and falling stars [in Mt 24:29], refer to the falling of Jewish dignitaries, casting down of authorities and powers, long established, and signified the darkness that settled upon the Jewish state [at AD 70]. The sun of the Hebrew temple was darkened, the moon of the Jewish commonwealth was as blood, the stars of the Sanhedrin fell from their high seats of authority." -- Foy Wallace (1896 - 1979)
> 
> "_t is reported that he [John] ... passed over to Ephesus, where, as we have said, this present Apocalypse also was composed; which is a revelation of future things, inasmuch as forty years after the ascension of the Lord this tribulation came upon the Jews." -- Arethas of Caesarea (850 - 944)
> 
> "The belief that Christ's Second Advent, with its accompaniments of a resurrection and a judgment, took place at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem, rests on precisely the same basis as the expectation of these events ever taking place; namely, on the plain, emphatic, and continually-repeated statements of our Lord and His apostles given beforehand ... . [Jesus] himself predicted that these events would take place at the close of the Jewish dispensation. To Christian believers this affords the strongest possible presumption that they did take place, for to Christian believers His predictions are /history anticipated/! The /burden of proof/ in the argument rests not on those who assert, but on those who deny, the past advent. ... To deny the truth of His predictions because we are unable historically to verify a certain portion of them is simply to make manifest the shallowness of our faith in Him. To disprove the truth of those predictions would be to shake the Christian religion to its very foundations. Let God and God's Son be true, and, if need be, every mere man a liar!" -- Ernest Hampden-Cook (1860 - 1932)_


_
Hobbs you have found examples of people that have the ability to take literal text and turn it into metaphors that are a stretch but fit your beliefs.

I applaud the thought that you put into it and the lengths that you go to try to get there but for those same reasons.....I AM OUT.
I have Shark Tank reruns on so I couldn't help but use the fitting line._


----------



## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> Hobbs you have found examples of people that have the ability to take literal text and turn it into metaphors that are a stretch but fit your beliefs.
> 
> I applaud the thought that you put into it and the lengths that you go to try to get there but for those same reasons.....I AM OUT.
> I have Shark Tank reruns on so I couldn't help but use the fitting line.



I'm just showing Atlas that preterism in some form or another has been in the church since it began,  and continued through its history. 

I'm out of here too,  long weeks ahead at work for me.


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> just answering questions.



Understood and appreciated but it is tiring discussing the literal biblical text.

Getting into a style that uses metaphors to try to associate the literal text with events that just did not happen is farther than I want to continually keep going.
I don't have to eat the whole cow to know I am eating beef. I have seen enough of your examples to know that they are an even greater twist on reality than regularly used to try to fill in the blanks of biblical shortcomings.

Take care and good luck.


----------



## atlashunter

bullethead said:


> Hobbs you have found examples of people that have the ability to take literal text and turn it into metaphors that are a stretch but fit your beliefs.
> 
> I applaud the thought that you put into it and the lengths that you go to try to get there but for those same reasons.....I AM OUT.
> I have Shark Tank reruns on so I couldn't help but use the fitting line.



He may as well go start yet another denomination. Just another in a long line of folks who have a different twist on what the Bible really meant to say and how everyone else hasn't figured it out as well as them. Not the first nor the last.


----------



## atlashunter

I'll put it this way. If you give people a prophecy and they can't understand it well enough that even those who believe the prophecy didn't notice it already happened for 2,000 years you're not much of a communicator. An omniscient omnipotent being can do better than that.


----------



## WaltL1

hobbs27 said:


> just answering questions.


Well not all of them.



> Just a question -
> if a company produced a set of assembly instructions that ships with their product and the vast majority of the customers looks at the instructions say "huh?", tosses them aside and then figures it out themselves (sound familiar?) is it the customer's fault or are the instructions not communicated in an effective way for the purpose intended?
> Please try to stick strictly to the question which contains no mention of the Bible or religion.


----------



## WaltL1

atlashunter said:


> He may as well go start yet another denomination. Just another in a long line of folks who have a different twist on what the Bible really meant to say and how everyone else hasn't figured it out as well as them. Not the first nor the last.


I would say though on a "higher level" than we typically see. hobbs has obviously done his homework.
He has become very skilled at backing up his versions of interpretation by presenting other versions of his interpretations and presenting them as fact.
On the negative side, he mistakes that for by being "right/righter" instead of just being more skillful at presenting his interpretations.
And he may be "right/righter".
Or just really good at being wrong/wronger.


----------



## hobbs27

atlashunter said:


> I'll put it this way. If you give people a prophecy and they can't understand it well enough that even those who believe the prophecy didn't notice it already happened for 2,000 years you're not much of a communicator. An omniscient omnipotent being can do better than that.



The people that truly needed to know what the prophecy of the destruction in 70ad meant,  understood it.  They fled Jerusalem as the signs Jesus gave them were coming true. This is recorded by a Jewish historian and eye witness to the event. 

Is this not simple,  considering it's a letter to seven churches that don't even exist today?  How do you define shortly.. 2,000 or 3,000 years? 
Revelation 1:1 
 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 


Why didn't people understand it after the first century?  
Because many Jew's didn't even understand their own culture in the time of Christ ministry.. They were having trouble understanding their own scrolls.  Jesus was constantly correcting them.  This is because of the cultural change the Hellenistic period had caused.  Couple that with a small church coming out of the ashes of Jerusalem and two hundred years later a merge with pagans to form the Roman Catholic Church,  and understanding of the original prophecies are gone along with the understanding of figurative Hebraic apocalyptic language.

Albeit many scholars in the past saw the error in futurism,  they were out numbered,  and had a level of authority against them. Today we have more Liberty,  more resources,  and more knowledge,  thanks to the ones that went in front of us in the past. 

 God can or could have done differently.  He could write the Gospel in the sky in every language of He wanted to,  but that wasn't His plan.  The end of the Old covenant age,  brought a new covenant,  one of grace,  one of a spiritual kingdom.  We don't have to understand the Bible to be saved,  most people don't,  but they know Jesus is Lord,  and that's all that matters.


----------



## hobbs27

WaltL1 said:


> Well not all of them.



Can you word your question differently?
 Apparently I'm having trouble understanding.  Sorry.


----------



## WaltL1

hobbs27 said:


> Can you word your question differently?
> Apparently I'm having trouble understanding.  Sorry.


I asked you this question and lets break it down -
Quote:
if a company produced a set of assembly instructions that ships with their product 


> The company is giving you the instructions, regardless of when the instructions were written, and saying "here use these".


Quote:
the vast majority of the customers looks at the instructions say "huh?", 


> The vast majority of the customers don't understand the instructions, regardless of when they were written, that the company gives them to use.


Quote:
tosses them aside and then figures it out themselves 


> They still want the product but since they don't understand the instructions they have no choice but to figure it out themselves.


Then based on the information I asked this question -
Quote:


> is it the customer's fault or are the instructions not communicated in an effective way for the purpose intended?


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> The people that truly needed to know what the prophecy of the destruction in 70ad meant,  understood it.  They fled Jerusalem as the signs Jesus gave them were coming true. This is recorded by a Jewish historian and eye witness to the event.
> 
> Is this not simple,  considering it's a letter to seven churches that don't even exist today?  How do you define shortly.. 2,000 or 3,000 years?
> Revelation 1:1
> The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,
> 
> 
> Why didn't people understand it after the first century?
> Because many Jew's didn't even understand their own culture in the time of Christ ministry.. They were having trouble understanding their own scrolls.  Jesus was constantly correcting them.  This is because of the cultural change the Hellenistic period had caused.  Couple that with a small church coming out of the ashes of Jerusalem and two hundred years later a merge with pagans to form the Roman Catholic Church,  and understanding of the original prophecies are gone along with the understanding of figurative Hebraic apocalyptic language.
> 
> Albeit many scholars in the past saw the error in futurism,  they were out numbered,  and had a level of authority against them. Today we have more Liberty,  more resources,  and more knowledge,  thanks to the ones that went in front of us in the past.
> 
> God can or could have done differently.  He could write the Gospel in the sky in every language of He wanted to,  but that wasn't His plan.  The end of the Old covenant age,  brought a new covenant,  one of grace,  one of a spiritual kingdom.  We don't have to understand the Bible to be saved,  most people don't,  but they know Jesus is Lord,  and that's all that matters.



The bible tells us that Jesus studied the Torah as a young boy and impressed the Rabbis with how quickly he learned it over the years.

Why would Jesus have to study it at all? He essentially wrote it.
Jesus was human. Nothing more.


----------



## 660griz

bullethead said:


> The bible tells us that Jesus studied the Torah as a young boy and impressed the Rabbis with how quickly he learned it over the years.
> 
> Why would Jesus have to study it at all? He essentially wrote it.
> Jesus was human. Nothing more.



Even Jesus thought so.
'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?'"


----------



## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> The bible tells us that Jesus studied the Torah as a young boy and impressed the Rabbis with how quickly he learned it over the years.
> 
> Why would Jesus have to study it at all? He essentially wrote it.
> Jesus was human. Nothing more.



I agree He was 100% human, but I wouldn't say nothing more.  Humans don't have the ability to walk on water,  or the gift to allow others to walk on water.  Humans also don't have the ability to heal by touch,  or speaking,  nor the ability to hand that gift over to a select few.


----------



## hobbs27

660griz said:


> Even Jesus thought so.
> 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?'"



That moment was the moment Jesus paid the price.  His human nature lost Sonship, just as Adam did in the garden. He became a sacrifice,  that we could become Sons of God.


----------



## hobbs27

WaltL1 said:


> I asked you this question and lets break it down -
> Quote:
> if a company produced a set of assembly instructions that ships with their product
> Quote:
> the vast majority of the customers looks at the instructions say "huh?",
> 
> Quote:
> tosses them aside and then figures it out themselves
> 
> Then based on the information I asked this question -
> Quote:



 As long as they are able to assemble correctly what does it matter about the instructions?  

Say they run into a problem,  what are they going to do,  they're going to run find those instructions aren't they?  They're going to dig in there,  ask for help,  but they are eventually going to figure it out... They may even enjoy the challenge in figuring out those instructions they didn't understand at first. 

As for who's fault.. I don't know.


----------



## hobbs27

So.. Where's these contradictions in the Bible?


----------



## atlashunter

hobbs27 said:


> So.. Where's these contradictions in the Bible?



I posted a link with a long list of them. Scholars like Bart Ehrman have written books detailing some of them.


----------



## WaltL1

hobbs27 said:


> As long as they are able to assemble correctly what does it matter about the instructions?
> 
> Say they run into a problem,  what are they going to do,  they're going to run find those instructions aren't they?  They're going to dig in there,  ask for help,  but they are eventually going to figure it out... They may even enjoy the challenge in figuring out those instructions they didn't understand at first.
> 
> As for who's fault.. I don't know.


Sure hobbs, we'll leave it at that.
But I must say, its really odd to me that for someone who has got the Bible all figured out, such a simple question seems to be such an overwhelming challenge.


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> So.. Where's these contradictions in the Bible?



You were shown them
Your explanations are not shown to be accurate
The contradictions discissed still exist and there are a thousand more left untouched.


----------



## atlashunter

hobbs27 said:


> I can provide many more than this if need be.
> 
> 
> 100: The Odes of Solomon Â “Because He is my Sun and His rays have lifted me up and His light hath dispelled all darkness from my face. In Him I HAVE acquired eyes and HAVE SEEN His HOLY DAY:Â  The way of error I have left, and have walked towards Him and have received salvation from Him, without grudging. I HAVE put on INCORRUPTION through His name: and have put off corruption by His grace. DEATH HAS BEEN DESTROYED before my face: and Sheol bath been abolished by my word”.
> 
> 150: Melito – Homily of the Pascha “Who will contend against me? Let him stand before me. It is I who delivered the condemned. It is I who gave life to the dead. It is I who RAISED UP THE BURIED. Who will argue with me? It is I, says Christ, who DESTROYED DEATH. It is I who triumphed over the enemy, and having trod down Hades, and bound the Strong Man, and HAVE SNATCHED UP MANKIND TO THE HEIGHTS OF HEAVEN.”
> 
> 175: Irenaeus – Against Heresies “the temple constructed of stones was indeed then rebuilt (for as yet that law was observed which had been made upon tables of stone), yet no new covenant was given, but they used the Mosaic law until the coming of the Lord; but from the Lord’s advent, the new covenant which brings back peace, and the law which gives life, has gone forth over the whole earth, as the prophets said: “For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem ; and He shall rebuke many people; and they shall break down their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruninghooks, and they shall no longer learn to fight.”
> 
> 500: Andreas “And I saw, when he had opened the sixth seal, and behold there was a great earthquake, and the sun became as black as sackcloth of hair, and the whole moon became as blood. And the stars from heaven fell upon the earth, as a fig-tree casteth its green figs when it is shaken by the wind.” [Apocalypse 6:12-13] “There are not wanting those who apply this passage to the siege and destruction of Jerusalem by Titus.”



I just at random picked the Irenaeus quote and looked it up. I don't think he is saying what you think he is. Go look up the full context. He isn't talking about the destruction of the temple in 70 AD nor the supposed return of Jesus in 70 AD.


----------



## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> You were shown them
> Your explanations are not shown to be accurate
> The contradictions discissed still exist and there are a thousand more left untouched.



 I knocked everyone of them out of the park. I'm ready for some more of those hanging curveballs.


----------



## 660griz

hobbs27 said:


> That moment was the moment Jesus paid the price.  His human nature lost Sonship, just as Adam did in the garden. He became a sacrifice,  that we could become Sons of God.



A sacrifice to who?
Did Jesus not know he was a God, taken on human form, so he could sacrifice himself, to himself, and become a God in spirit again?
Just saying that makes me smile.


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> I knocked everyone of them out of the park. I'm ready for some more of those hanging curve balls


 Im sure you think you did.


----------



## MiGGeLLo

hobbs27 said:


> I knocked everyone of them out of the park. I'm ready for some more of those hanging curveballs.



Here's my favorite list:

http://bibviz.com/

There are a lot of curveballs though.. are you sure you want to go through all of the contradictions and/or scientific inaccuracies?


----------



## hobbs27

atlashunter said:


> I just at random picked the Irenaeus quote and looked it up. I don't think he is saying what you think he is. Go look up the full context. He isn't talking about the destruction of the temple in 70 AD nor the supposed return of Jesus in 70 AD.




175: Irenaeus – Against Heresies “the temple constructed of stones was indeed then rebuilt (for as yet that law was observed which had been made upon tables of stone), yet no new covenant was given, but they used the Mosaic law until the coming of the Lord; but from the Lord’s advent, the new covenant which brings back peace, and the law which gives life, has gone forth over the whole earth, as the prophets said: “For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem ; and He shall rebuke many people; and they shall break down their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruninghooks, and they shall no longer learn to fight.”

You may want to look up the meaning of advent,  and note he's referring to it as an already event. 
 The breaking down of the swords is from Isaiah and is concerning the end of the Old covenant and beginning of new.


----------



## hobbs27

MiGGeLLo said:


> Here's my favorite list:
> 
> http://bibviz.com/
> 
> There are a lot of curveballs though.. are you sure you want to go through all of the contradictions and/or scientific inaccuracies?



I'll go through as many as I can,  I'm working late tonight,  so I may not get to them till later.


----------



## atlashunter

hobbs27 said:


> 175: Irenaeus – Against Heresies “the temple constructed of stones was indeed then rebuilt (for as yet that law was observed which had been made upon tables of stone), yet no new covenant was given, but they used the Mosaic law until the coming of the Lord; but from the Lord’s advent, the new covenant which brings back peace, and the law which gives life, has gone forth over the whole earth, as the prophets said: “For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem ; and He shall rebuke many people; and they shall break down their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruninghooks, and they shall no longer learn to fight.”
> 
> You may want to look up the meaning of advent,  and note he's referring to it as an already event.
> The breaking down of the swords is from Isaiah and is concerning the end of the Old covenant and beginning of new.



Where do you get the idea he is suggesting the lords advent was in 70 AD? It's common church doctrine that a new covenant was established with the crucifixion and resurrection. What exactly leads you to believe he is talking about a second coming here in 70 AD?


----------



## MiGGeLLo

hobbs27 said:


> I am very serious. Yes,  Christians have varying educated opinions,  and I'm semi OK with that as long as they accept the Bible as truth.  When a person claims the Bible is not true, it's time for me to move on from the conversation,  there's nothing to talk about if it's all just imagination.  That's why I seldomly come in here.  I think it's a bit of a waste trying to explain the Biblical God to people that dont accept the Bible as true.



Before you start on those contradictions for my sake, you should be aware that I do not accept that the Bible is true. I think portions of it have some historical validity, but its premise that we should believe in supernatural beings with no evidence is logically flawed at best, and in many cases harmful to human progress.

Even without the contradictions that help make a case against the claims in the bible, if you were able to apologize all of the extant contradictions away it still wouldn't make a very good affirmative case for the claims the bible makes.


----------



## atlashunter

hobbs27 said:


> I knocked everyone of them out of the park. I'm ready for some more of those hanging curveballs.



No you just denied that they exist. A denial a refutation does not make.


----------



## ambush80

MiGGeLLo said:


> Before you start on those contradictions for my sake, you should be aware that I do not accept that the Bible is true. I think portions of it have some historical validity, but its premise that we should believe in supernatural beings with no evidence is logically flawed at best, and in many cases harmful to human progress.
> 
> Even without the contradictions that help make a case against the claims in the bible, if you were able to apologize all of the extant contradictions away it still wouldn't make a very good affirmative case for the claims the bible makes.




Do you think there was ever a utilitarian purpose or at least an unintended positive outcome from those kinds of beliefs?  I recently made acquaintance with an individual who I was convinced that society is better off because they believe in the Wrath of God.  After talking with them, I concluded that they were incapable of the kind of thinking that would cause them to do no harm based purely on reason.  

I wanted to ask them if they were in a life or death situation if God would tell them that it was OK to eat a human or not but we ran out of time.  On the way home I realized that regardless of their answer, they would believe that  it was God's wish but also that they would be forgiven if it was not.  Pretty useful stuff for someone like that.


----------



## ambush80

PS.  I edited my last post quite a bit for clarity.


----------



## atlashunter

hobbs27 said:


> You may want to look up the meaning of advent,  and note he's referring to it as an already event.
> The breaking down of the swords is from Isaiah and is concerning the end of the Old covenant and beginning of new.



http://biblehub.com/isaiah/2-4.htm

And you think this happened in 70 AD? Do we need to start listing the armed conflicts that have taken place since 70 AD? Let alone the claim that disputes were settled among the nations by this guy that nobody noticed.

For those unfamiliar go read Matthew chapter 24 and then ask yourself if all of those predictions have happened. Last I checked people are still dying today just as they were thousands of years ago, the stars are still in the sky, and nobody has come out of the clouds for all the world to see blowing his trumpets summoning angels. If that has already happened in 70 AD it's the most overhyped non-event in human history.


----------



## MiGGeLLo

ambush80 said:


> Do you think there was ever a utilitarian purpose or at least an unintended positive outcome from those kinds of beliefs?  I recently made acquaintance with an individual who I was convinced that society is better off because they believe in the Wrath of God.  After talking with them, I concluded that they were incapable of the kind of thinking that would cause them to do no harm based purely on reason.
> 
> I wanted to ask them if they were in a life or death situation if God would tell them that it was OK to eat a human or not but we ran out of time.  On the way home I realized that regardless of their answer, they would believe that  it was God's wish but also that they would be forgiven if it was not.  Pretty useful stuff for someone like that.



Yeah I think there probably are some cases where it is a good thing that a person holds irrational beliefs. And frankly if it makes people happy to believe in an afterlife or whatever other comforts they derive from their religious beliefs, more power to them as long as they do not harm others directly or indirectly based on that belief.

For example I also know several people that don't have much of a moral compass, perhaps even bordering on sociopaths. One of those recently (re)found religion, and while I wouldn't recommend it for most people, I feel a bit better knowing that he/she at least has some concept that there may be divine punishment if he/she goes off the rails.

To preempt any misunderstandings, I do not believe religions are required for morality, but for some individuals an easy to follow moral framework such as religions provide may be a good thing. I would sell everyone on secular humanism if I could, but [insert religion here] may be better than nothing.


----------



## ambush80

MiGGeLLo said:


> Yeah I think there probably are some cases where it is a good thing that a person holds irrational beliefs. And frankly if it makes people happy to believe in an afterlife or whatever other comforts they derive from their religious beliefs, more power to them as long as they do not harm others directly or indirectly based on that belief.
> 
> For example I also know several people that don't have much of a moral compass, perhaps even bordering on sociopaths. One of those recently (re)found religion, and while I wouldn't recommend it for most people, I feel a bit better knowing that he/she at least has some concept that there may be divine punishment if he/she goes off the rails.
> 
> To preempt any misunderstandings, I do not believe religions are required for morality, but for some individuals an easy to follow moral framework such as religions provide may be a good thing. I would sell everyone on secular humanism if I could, but [insert religion here] may be better than nothing.




That's what I was getting at.


----------



## atlashunter

ambush80 said:


> Do you think there was ever a utilitarian purpose or at least an unintended positive outcome from those kinds of beliefs?  I recently made acquaintance with an individual who I was convinced that society is better off because they believe in the Wrath of God.  After talking with them, I concluded that they were incapable of the kind of thinking that would cause them to do no harm based purely on reason.
> 
> I wanted to ask them if they were in a life or death situation if God would tell them that it was OK to eat a human or not but we ran out of time.  On the way home I realized that regardless of their answer, they would believe that  it was God's wish but also that they would be forgiven if it was not.  Pretty useful stuff for someone like that.



If you watch the videos in the Deconversion thread there is a point in there where the professor talks about how some people have a mental need for religion. I think that is true.


----------



## centerpin fan

atlashunter said:


> http://biblehub.com/isaiah/2-4.htm
> 
> And you think this happened in 70 AD? Do we need to start listing the armed conflicts that have taken place since 70 AD?



Don't encourage him.


----------



## atlashunter

centerpin fan said:


> Don't encourage him.


----------



## MiGGeLLo

atlashunter said:


> If you watch the videos in the Deconversion thread there is a point in there where the professor talks about how some people have a mental need for religion. I think that is true.



The 'God Gene' right? It's going to be really interesting as our knowledge of genetics improves seeing  how our genetics affect aspects of our personality that we think of as being defined by factors we control. I was listening to a podcast from radiolab the other day where a neuroscientist was essentially saying that everything is actually out of our control, that we are a product of our genetic makeup much more so than people are comfortable admitting. 

For example it isn't really contentious to tell someone that their eye color is determined by their genetic makeup. However take the same person and tell them that if just a few of their genes were changed around, or a portion of their brain removed, they would be sexually attracted to children. Chances are they aren't going to like that thought and may reject it outright. I think religion is another subject that people aren't going to want to accept is determined in large part by factors outside of their control, that is other than religious groups that believe in predestination.


----------



## WaltL1

ambush80 said:


> Do you think there was ever a utilitarian purpose or at least an unintended positive outcome from those kinds of beliefs?  I recently made acquaintance with an individual who I was convinced that society is better off because they believe in the Wrath of God.  After talking with them, I concluded that they were incapable of the kind of thinking that would cause them to do no harm based purely on reason.
> 
> I wanted to ask them if they were in a life or death situation if God would tell them that it was OK to eat a human or not but we ran out of time.  On the way home I realized that regardless of their answer, they would believe that  it was God's wish but also that they would be forgiven if it was not.  Pretty useful stuff for someone like that.


Yep, when the Christians in here claim that without God there would be no morals I guess have to believe them that without God they would have no morals.
Glad they believe.


----------



## atlashunter

MiGGeLLo said:


> The 'God Gene' right? It's going to be really interesting as our knowledge of genetics improves seeing  how our genetics affect aspects of our personality that we think of as being defined by factors we control. I was listening to a podcast from radiolab the other day where a neuroscientist was essentially saying that everything is actually out of our control, that we are a product of our genetic makeup much more so than people are comfortable admitting.
> 
> For example it isn't really contentious to tell someone that their eye color is determined by their genetic makeup. However take the same person and tell them that if just a few of their genes were changed around, or a portion of their brain removed, they would be sexually attracted to children. Chances are they aren't going to like that thought and may reject it outright. I think religion is another subject that people aren't going to want to accept is determined in large part by factors outside of their control, that is other than religious groups that believe in predestination.



What I was referring to didn't go into genetics. This sounds a lot like a speech Sam Harris gave on the topic. I'm not sure where I am on that subject.


----------



## WaltL1

atlashunter said:


> What I was referring to didn't go into genetics. This sounds a lot like a speech Sam Harris gave on the topic. I'm not sure where I am on that subject.


Yes.
Ambush is the expert on these guys, but I think Sam uses the same line of reasoning when discussing free will.


----------



## ambush80

atlashunter said:


> What I was referring to didn't go into genetics. This sounds a lot like a speech Sam Harris gave on the topic. I'm not sure where I am on that subject.



It's the whole premise of his book _Freewill_.  There are many videos of him overviewing his book.  I can't seem to refute Sam's argument but I also realize (and Sam seems to touch on this) that we need to operate as if we have freewill.  The biggest impact the notion of determinism has is that we can view the nature of punishment and guilt differently (as if we have a choice).

It's interesting stuff to think about.


----------



## hobbs27

atlashunter said:


> http://biblehub.com/isaiah/2-4.htm
> 
> And you think this happened in 70 AD? Do we need to start listing the armed conflicts that have taken place since 70 AD? Let alone the claim that disputes were settled among the nations by this guy that nobody noticed.
> 
> For those unfamiliar go read Matthew chapter 24 and then ask yourself if all of those predictions have happened. Last I checked people are still dying today just as they were thousands of years ago, the stars are still in the sky, and nobody has come out of the clouds for all the world to see blowing his trumpets summoning angels. If that has already happened in 70 AD it's the most overhyped non-event in human history.



You can list all conflicts.  I'm interested to find the one where God's children under the authority of Christ's kingdom fought a war... Israel once fought wars under the authority of God,  but since the kingdom is now spiritual.. There's no more war. 

Yes people physically die,  but that's not the death Christ redeemed man from. Adam died in the day he took of the fruit.  He physically lived many more years but in that day he lost Sonship of God and became a servant.  His lineage remained servants up to the time Jesus redeemed us to eternal life.. By making us Sons of God again. 


The stars falling,  the trumpet blowing,  the coming on clouds are all apocalyptic languages.  They are used in old testament prophecy about other judgments and it's simply a day of the Lord.. IE judgment,  and God commonly used one group of people to destroy another.. As He used the Babylonians to destroy the first Temple... And He did this the purify His people,  just as the flood. 

Now reading Matthew 24:34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 

So.. It was done in that generation in the first century.  70ad.

Luke 21 shows all things written were to be fulfilled at the destruction of the Temple.. Ad
 70

I'll try to finish up some more remarks in the morning.


----------



## atlashunter

That's about the response I was expecting. Metaphors, spiritual wars, etc.  Like I said before, much ado about nothing. So much so that neither the church nor the jews noticed. Even though Jesus was clear in Matthew 24 that everyone in the world would take notice. You wouldn't have to look for the messiah on that day because it would be as obvious to everyone that the messiah was coming down out of the clouds as lightning in the east can be observed by people in the west. Heaven and earth haven't passed like he said they would. Nations are still in conflict now just as then and every period in between. The stars didn't fall to the earth. Another tip off that this wasn't divinely inspired writing. Stars can't fall to the earth. Men didn't know that back then but a god would have. Those people who said death was destroyed? They died just the same. Yes I know, they didn't really die. 

Even the sources you quoted don't say what you're suggesting. The part from The Odes of Solomon says nothing about the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. Neither does the Irenaeus quote. Don't know where you got that from but it's sloppy scholarship at best. I'm sure you can probably find someone somewhere in the past 2,000 years of Christian history who held that view. But it has never been a doctrine that gained any traction in the church or for the Jews either. Did god not see that coming? Or has the subsequent 2,000 years of continued warfare and death also been part of the grand plan? If this is the work of an all knowing all powerful being I have to say I'm not impressed. I know people who are mentally handicapped that do a better job of communicating.


----------



## hobbs27

atlashunter said:


> That's about the response I was expecting. Metaphors, spiritual wars, etc.  Like I said before, much ado about nothing. So much so that neither the church nor the jews noticed. Even though Jesus was clear in Matthew 24 that everyone in the world would take notice. You wouldn't have to look for the messiah on that day because it would be as obvious to everyone that the messiah was coming down out of the clouds as lightning in the east can be observed by people in the west. Heaven and earth haven't passed like he said they would. Nations are still in conflict now just as then and every period in between. The stars didn't fall to the earth. Another tip off that this wasn't divinely inspired writing. Stars can't fall to the earth. Men didn't know that back then but a god would have. Those people who said death was destroyed? They died just the same. Yes I know, they didn't really die.
> 
> Even the sources you quoted don't say what you're suggesting. The part from The Odes of Solomon says nothing about the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. Neither does the Irenaeus quote. Don't know where you got that from but it's sloppy scholarship at best. I'm sure you can probably find someone somewhere in the past 2,000 years of Christian history who held that view. But it has never been a doctrine that gained any traction in the church or for the Jews either. Did god not see that coming? Or has the subsequent 2,000 years of continued warfare and death also been part of the grand plan? If this is the work of an all knowing all powerful being I have to say I'm not impressed. I know people who are mentally handicapped that do a better job of communicating.




You really need this book. 

https://mobile.audible.com/pd/Relig...NNogVPaa5N8DBPaXiEIpFBVmJRA7f41xoCE5IQAvD_BwE


----------



## Israel

ambush80 said:


> It's the whole premise of his book _Freewill_.  There are many videos of him overviewing his book.  I can't seem to refute Sam's argument but I also realize (and Sam seems to touch on this) that we need to operate as if we have freewill.  The biggest impact the notion of determinism has is that we can view the nature of punishment and guilt differently (as if we have a choice).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's interesting stuff to think about
> 
> 
> 
> .
Click to expand...


Seems Einstein came to that same place in determinism.

If "truth" in matters is not limited to:


> It's interesting stuff to think about


  but _all there is _to think about, the he11 portion of the experiment should be readily revealed.


----------



## MiGGeLLo

Israel said:


> Seems Einstein came to that same place in determinism.
> 
> If "truth" in matters is not limited to:
> but _all there is _to think about, the he11 portion of the experiment should be readily revealed.



I'm not following, how did you go from determinism to he11 in two sentences with a vague reference to Einstein?


----------



## centerpin fan

MiGGeLLo said:


> I'm not following, how did you go from determinism to he11 in two sentences with a vague reference to Einstein?



Newbie!


----------



## ambush80

Israel said:


> Seems Einstein came to that same place in determinism.
> 
> If "truth" in matters is not limited to:
> but _all there is _to think about, the he11 portion of the experiment should be readily revealed.





MiGGeLLo said:


> I'm not following, how did you go from determinism to he11 in two sentences with a vague reference to Einstein?





centerpin fan said:


> Newbie!





That's a funny exchange.

Isreal, I wish we had gotten together the other week.  We didn't get to beach fish anymore that trip.  I did catch a tiger bass out of the community lake where we were staying and I must say that it was excellent table fare.  

The notion of a He11 experiment is intriguing.  Would you elaborate?


----------



## atlashunter

hobbs27 said:


> You really need this book.
> 
> https://mobile.audible.com/pd/Relig...NNogVPaa5N8DBPaXiEIpFBVmJRA7f41xoCE5IQAvD_BwE



Apparently the entire orthodox christian church for the last 2,000 years needs that book. So they can learn what the bible really meant to say.


----------



## WaltL1

centerpin fan said:


> Newbie!


you are bad!


----------



## centerpin fan

WaltL1 said:


> you are bad!


----------



## centerpin fan

atlashunter said:


> Apparently the entire orthodox christian church for the last 2,000 years needs that book. So they can learn what the bible really meant to say.



I think I found the solution:


New Bible Interpretation Goggles Now Available

NASHVILLE, TN—LifeWay Christian Resources announced Monday that its long-awaited Bible interpretation goggles are now available, allowing Bible readers to interpret the text through whatever theological system or framework they are comfortable with.

The goggles are available in a variety of worldviews and preconceived notions.

“Let’s say you’re reading a passage that seems to suggest that baptism is for believers only, but you’re a Presbyterian,” a representative demoing the goggles said. “Just make sure your lenses are set to the Covenant Theology framework, and the passage appears to alter itself on the fly, hiding any language that might challenge that idea. No more pesky changing your worldview to fit the text—now the text will change to fit your worldview!”

The rep then demonstrated the settings for dispensationalism, Pentecostalism, cessationism, Calvinism, and Arminianism, with the goggles completely obliterating or heavily modifying in real-time any passages that challenge those frameworks.

“Calvinists will find a fresh new reading of John 3:16—”For God so loved the elect…”—while Arminians will find that the book of Romans skips directly from chapter 8 to chapter 10,” she added.

The device is being called a breakthrough, with dozens of prominent theologians on various sides of major issues endorsing the set of interpretation glasses. “It’s a whole new way to read the Bible,” one megachurch pastor said.

According to LifeWay, the initial production run of the goggles sold out almost immediately.

http://babylonbee.com/news/new-bible-interpretation-goggles-now-available/


----------



## atlashunter

centerpin fan said:


> I think I found the solution:
> 
> 
> New Bible Interpretation Goggles Now Available
> 
> NASHVILLE, TN—LifeWay Christian Resources announced Monday that its long-awaited Bible interpretation goggles are now available, allowing Bible readers to interpret the text through whatever theological system or framework they are comfortable with.
> 
> The goggles are available in a variety of worldviews and preconceived notions.
> 
> “Let’s say you’re reading a passage that seems to suggest that baptism is for believers only, but you’re a Presbyterian,” a representative demoing the goggles said. “Just make sure your lenses are set to the Covenant Theology framework, and the passage appears to alter itself on the fly, hiding any language that might challenge that idea. No more pesky changing your worldview to fit the text—now the text will change to fit your worldview!”
> 
> The rep then demonstrated the settings for dispensationalism, Pentecostalism, cessationism, Calvinism, and Arminianism, with the goggles completely obliterating or heavily modifying in real-time any passages that challenge those frameworks.
> 
> “Calvinists will find a fresh new reading of John 3:16—”For God so loved the elect…”—while Arminians will find that the book of Romans skips directly from chapter 8 to chapter 10,” she added.
> 
> The device is being called a breakthrough, with dozens of prominent theologians on various sides of major issues endorsing the set of interpretation glasses. “It’s a whole new way to read the Bible,” one megachurch pastor said.
> 
> According to LifeWay, the initial production run of the goggles sold out almost immediately.
> 
> http://babylonbee.com/news/new-bible-interpretation-goggles-now-available/



Now that's what Willis it talkin' 'bout.


----------



## ambush80

centerpin fan said:


> I think I found the solution:
> 
> 
> New Bible Interpretation Goggles Now Available
> 
> NASHVILLE, TN—LifeWay Christian Resources announced Monday that its long-awaited Bible interpretation goggles are now available, allowing Bible readers to interpret the text through whatever theological system or framework they are comfortable with.
> 
> The goggles are available in a variety of worldviews and preconceived notions.
> 
> “Let’s say you’re reading a passage that seems to suggest that baptism is for believers only, but you’re a Presbyterian,” a representative demoing the goggles said. “Just make sure your lenses are set to the Covenant Theology framework, and the passage appears to alter itself on the fly, hiding any language that might challenge that idea. No more pesky changing your worldview to fit the text—now the text will change to fit your worldview!”
> 
> The rep then demonstrated the settings for dispensationalism, Pentecostalism, cessationism, Calvinism, and Arminianism, with the goggles completely obliterating or heavily modifying in real-time any passages that challenge those frameworks.
> 
> “Calvinists will find a fresh new reading of John 3:16—”For God so loved the elect…”—while Arminians will find that the book of Romans skips directly from chapter 8 to chapter 10,” she added.
> 
> The device is being called a breakthrough, with dozens of prominent theologians on various sides of major issues endorsing the set of interpretation glasses. “It’s a whole new way to read the Bible,” one megachurch pastor said.
> 
> According to LifeWay, the initial production run of the goggles sold out almost immediately.
> 
> http://babylonbee.com/news/new-bible-interpretation-goggles-now-available/



I tried them on the Atheist setting.  Genesis 1:1 read "I am He as you are He as you are Me and we are all together".


----------



## centerpin fan

ambush80 said:


> I tried them on the Atheist setting.  Genesis 1:1 read "I am He as you are He as you are Me and we are all together".


----------



## ambush80

centerpin fan said:


>


----------



## bullethead

centerpin fan said:


> I think I found the solution:
> 
> 
> New Bible Interpretation Goggles Now Available
> 
> NASHVILLE, TN—LifeWay Christian Resources announced Monday that its long-awaited Bible interpretation goggles are now available, allowing Bible readers to interpret the text through whatever theological system or framework they are comfortable with.
> 
> The goggles are available in a variety of worldviews and preconceived notions.
> 
> “Let’s say you’re reading a passage that seems to suggest that baptism is for believers only, but you’re a Presbyterian,” a representative demoing the goggles said. “Just make sure your lenses are set to the Covenant Theology framework, and the passage appears to alter itself on the fly, hiding any language that might challenge that idea. No more pesky changing your worldview to fit the text—now the text will change to fit your worldview!”
> 
> The rep then demonstrated the settings for dispensationalism, Pentecostalism, cessationism, Calvinism, and Arminianism, with the goggles completely obliterating or heavily modifying in real-time any passages that challenge those frameworks.
> 
> “Calvinists will find a fresh new reading of John 3:16—”For God so loved the elect…”—while Arminians will find that the book of Romans skips directly from chapter 8 to chapter 10,” she added.
> 
> The device is being called a breakthrough, with dozens of prominent theologians on various sides of major issues endorsing the set of interpretation glasses. “It’s a whole new way to read the Bible,” one megachurch pastor said.
> 
> According to LifeWay, the initial production run of the goggles sold out almost immediately.
> 
> http://babylonbee.com/news/new-bible-interpretation-goggles-now-available/


OYG! Perfect!!


----------



## SemperFiDawg

atlashunter said:


> “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
> Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
> Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
> Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”



We just hashed this out about 2 months ago.  Again, it's nothing more than a self contradictory atheist meme.

It's based on the assumption that humans (in this case YOU) are all knowing, all powerful, and all loving and thus the ultimate arbiter or good and evil.  Hence, you are asserting that you are the very thing you deny exists.  

This doesn't even begin to address the underlying concept of where atheist get the notion of good and evil.  An atheist should have no qualms with the picture.  It's just nature being nature.  The fact that we all see a picture like that and feel repulsed and saddened is a feeling that atheism can't begin to explain.


----------



## ambush80

SemperFiDawg said:


> We just hashed this out about 2 months ago.  Again, it's nothing more that self contradictory atheist meme.
> 
> It's based on the assumption that humans (in this case YOU) are all knowing, all powerful, and all loving and thus the ultimate arbiter or good and evil.  Hence, you are asserting that you are the very thing you are denying exists.
> 
> This doesn't even begin to address the underlying concept of where atheist get the notion of good and evil.  An atheist should have no qualms with the picture.  It's just nature being nature.  The fact that we all see a picture like that and feel repulsed and saddened is a feeling that atheism can't begin to explain.



You don't know what the definition of Atheism is.  It simply means that one doesn't believe in God.  It doesn't tell you how to live or what is right or wrong.  I would start by looking to anthropology, philosophy, neurophysics, sociology and biology to explore the origins of what we consider to be right and wrong.  

Or you can pray


----------



## SemperFiDawg

WaltL1 said:


> Yep, when the Christians in here claim that without God there would be no morals I guess have to believe them that without God they would have no morals.
> Glad they believe.



That's a straw man and a poor one at that.  Christians say that without God all morals become relative.  That's what you would say if you were being honest, but I guess that's a truth too far.


----------



## ambush80

SemperFiDawg said:


> We just hashed this out about 2 months ago.  Again, it's nothing more than a self contradictory atheist meme.
> 
> It's based on the assumption that humans (in this case YOU) are all knowing, all powerful, and all loving and thus the ultimate arbiter or good and evil.  Hence, you are asserting that you are the very thing you deny exists.
> 
> This doesn't even begin to address the underlying concept of where atheist get the notion of good and evil.  An atheist should have no qualms with the picture.  It's just nature being nature.  The fact that we all see a picture like that and feel repulsed and saddened is a feeling that atheism can't begin to explain.



You don't even acknowledge that there's anything wrong with that picture.  Your belief allows you simply say "God has a plan for that horror".  You can't even call it wrong because that would make your God wrong.  That seems far, far, far from goodness in my opinion.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

ambush80 said:


> You don't even acknowledge that there's anything wrong with that picture.  Your belief allows you simply say "God has a plan for that horror".  You can't even call it wrong because that would make your God wrong.  That seems far, far, far from goodness in my opinion.



You started here:



> You don't even acknowledge that there's anything wrong with that picture.



which is a lie.  Follow that with this:



> Your belief allows you simply say "God has a plan for that horror".



which is another lie.  Add:



> You can't even call it wrong because that would make your God wrong.



3 for 3 in the lie department.  You're batting 100 today Brother.  



then opine on your 3 lies.

And this friends and neighbors is all it takes to be an atheist a.k.a. Fact-Free Thinkers.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

hobbs27 said:


> you can list all conflicts.  I'm interested to find the one where god's children under the authority of christ's kingdom fought a war... Israel once fought wars under the authority of god,  but since the kingdom is now spiritual.. There's no more war.
> 
> Yes people physically die,  but that's not the death christ redeemed man from. Adam died in the day he took of the fruit.  He physically lived many more years but in that day he lost sonship of god and became a servant.  His lineage remained servants up to the time jesus redeemed us to eternal life.. By making us sons of god again.
> 
> 
> The stars falling,  the trumpet blowing,  the coming on clouds are all apocalyptic languages.  They are used in old testament prophecy about other judgments and it's simply a day of the lord.. Ie judgment,  and god commonly used one group of people to destroy another.. As he used the babylonians to destroy the first temple... And he did this the purify his people,  just as the flood.
> 
> Now reading matthew 24:34 assuredly, i say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.
> 
> So.. It was done in that generation in the first century.  70ad.
> 
> Luke 21 shows all things written were to be fulfilled at the destruction of the temple.. Ad
> 70
> 
> i'll try to finish up some more remarks in the morning.




70ad

my man!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## SemperFiDawg

atlashunter said:


> Scholars like Bart Ehrman ....



Now that's funny right there.  I don't care who you are.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

WaltL1 said:


> Sure hobbs, we'll leave it at that.
> But I must say, its really odd to me that for someone who has got the Bible all figured out, such a simple question seems to be such an overwhelming challenge.



Dude.  Don't insult hobbs with such patronage.  He HAS his own translation.  Let that sink in for a minute.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

atlashunter said:


> I just at random picked the Irenaeus quote and looked it up. I don't think he is saying what you think he is. Go look up the full context. He isn't talking about the destruction of the temple in 70 AD nor the supposed return of Jesus in 70 AD.



NO. NO YOU DIDN'T.  Well that explains much.

Just a hunch, but I'm willing to bet that a man with his own personal translation has never heard this 





> I don't think he is saying what you think he is.


 before.


----------



## SemperFiDawg




----------



## hobbs27

SemperFiDawg said:


> Dude.  Don't insult hobbs with such patronage.  He HAS his own translation.  Let that sink in for a minute.



Maybe you would like a shot at the question.  I still don't think I understand what he's asking. By following your common errors I'll probably get it.


----------



## ambush80

SemperFiDawg said:


> You started here:



Is there anything wrong with that picture?  Who's fault is it?





SemperFiDawg said:


> which is a lie.  Follow that with this:



Is there a plan for that Horror?  How do you know?





SemperFiDawg said:


> which is another lie.  Add:



There IS something wrong with that picture.  If God allows it, He must have a plan for that horror.  But God doesn't do anything wrong so there's nothing wrong with that picture.  Praise Jesus.





SemperFiDawg said:


> 3 for 3 in the lie department.  You're batting 100 today Brother.
> 
> 
> 
> then opine on your 3 lies.
> 
> And this friends and neighbors is all it takes to be an atheist a.k.a. Fact-Free Thinkers.



Atheism doesn't tell you what's right or wrong.  It doesn't tell you how to reason.  It doesn't inform anything except for to say that one doesn't believe in God.  An atheist might still believe in Bigfoot or healing crystals.  It's not my atheism that draws me to those conclusions.  It's the Bible.  I'm going on what the Bible says and what you guys with the super- discerning powers have told me it says. 

1.  Is that picture depicting something wrong?  
2.  Does God have a plan for that horror?
3.  God's plan cannot be wrong.

Is there something wrong going on in that picture?  Is there something that can be done to alleviate that needless suffering?  What's causing that suffering, an outbreak of atheism and rationality? Do you think that if the whole world were Christian that there would be no more starvation and war?


----------



## ambush80

SemperFiDawg said:


> Dude.  Don't insult hobbs with such patronage.  He HAS his own translation.  Let that sink in for a minute.





hobbs27 said:


> Maybe you would like a shot at the question.  I still don't think I understand what he's asking. By following your common errors I'll probably get it.



You guys.....


----------



## WaltL1

SemperFiDawg said:


> That's a straw man and a poor one at that.  Christians say that without God all morals become relative.  That's what you would say if you were being honest, but I guess that's a truth too far.


If only you could hear yourself sometimes.


----------



## ambush80

SemperFiDawg said:


> That's a straw man and a poor one at that.  Christians say that without God all morals become relative.  That's what you would say if you were being honest, but I guess that's a truth too far.



Christians say many strange things, that one most curiously.  If Everyone believed in your God we would all get along.....the way that YOU believe; EXACTLY the way that you believe; if you could download your thoughts into their brains.  Same with if they all believed like I do; JUST like I do.


----------



## WaltL1

ambush80 said:


> You don't know what the definition of Atheism is.  It simply means that one doesn't believe in God.  It doesn't tell you how to live or what is right or wrong.  I would start by look to anthropology, philosophy, neurophysics, sociology and biology to explore the origins of what we consider to be right and wrong.
> 
> Or you can pray





> You don't know what the definition of Atheism is.


He doesn't want to know. It doesn't fit his narrative. Regardless of how many times he's been told and shown, he's like a human Etch-a-sketch. 
A little shake and *poof*... all gone.


----------



## hobbs27

MiGGeLLo said:


> Here's my favorite list:
> 
> http://bibviz.com/
> 
> There are a lot of curveballs though.. are you sure you want to go through all of the contradictions and/or scientific inaccuracies?




 I looked over this. I don't see contradictions at all, and apparently we are too far apart to even communicate on this.. The first one Revelation 12:3 is apocalyptic language describing a Satan.  Yes,  the literal interpretation of it is ludicrous,  but the seven churches in Asia in the first century would have understood it beautifully.  You know,  the Bible is not written to us,  but for us. So we must consider audience relevance,  and cultural differences. 

I was hoping to see a comparison chart such as the Bible says X here,  but denies x there.  Indeed there's places like that,  but all for good reason.


----------



## Israel

MiGGeLLo said:


> I'm not following, how did you go from determinism to he11 in two sentences with a vague reference to Einstein?



Post #848 in the "What Is True" thread. Some things mentioned by Einstein from a 1929 interview, among which is:



> “I am a determinist. As such, I do not believe in free will. The Jews believe in free will. They believe that man shapes his own life. I reject that doctrine philosophically. In that respect I am not a Jew… Practically, I am nevertheless, compelled to act as if freedom of the will existed. If I wish to live in a civilized community, I must act as if man is a responsible being.”



Which, if I understand Ambush's assessment of Harris's position is, as mentioned:



> It's the whole premise of his book Freewill. There are many videos of him overviewing his book. I can't seem to refute Sam's argument but I also realize (and Sam seems to touch on this) that we need to operate as if we have freewill.



I think you can see they are quite similar in conclusion.

Interesting Einstein says _compelled_, Ambush interprets Harris' touching on this as _we need to_. Both, again very similar. Compulsion, need.

I am in an experiment. And it's one I see postulated by Jesus Christ. And though I believe we are always "about this experiment" (even with one another), I understand it's not something I can compel anyone to be conscious of. Nevertheless, I am. And, nevertheless I am also conscious we are all in it, and all about it, always.

This thing that Jesus spoke by _concession_ (to an all but fatal weakness he knows of man) has all to do with that fatal weakness/flaw...man cannot recognize the truth, though it be right in front of him. And so, _by concession _ says:

If any man will do his will (God's will), he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Jesus concedes this. He _allows for man_ to have questions about Him. He allows for man to say in his heart...(even the most _devout_ and _religious of men_)   "where is this fellow coming up with this stuff? How would anyone know if he is true, and then if he is, his words therefore, are?" 
So Jesus invites to the "experiment". In essence saying: 

"I know what you think, what you wonder." You want to know whether I am just making this stuff up "_of myself_", just speaking the vanity of another mind of man.

So basically he says "Go ahead, try it...if you seek to do the will of God, you'll find out I didn't get this "from myself". Didn't "make this stuff up"...and you'll find out who it truly came from."

Do the experiment. Was once my recommendation, too. Ambush and I spoke about it several times.

If you want to call it "pursue the truth" with as much unbiased honesty you can see, you'll find out. You'll find out about a predilection for fudging data...in your favor. The thumb that finds its way on to "your side" of the scale. And when that is finally revealed, and precisely at that point (if somehow honesty prevails) you'll know.
Your thumb on the scale has skewed every bit of what you believe you know, have ever thought you knew...about anything, and everything. From yourself first of all, to all that is of "all else"...which in toto, is everything. 

And it is everything...not of "not knowing"...but precisely of "wrong knowing"...that you have known.

Oh, no, I don't doubt at all, we are all in this experiment.
It's _determined_.

So, now we speak of determinism. Gee, even Sam Harris speaks about it. (he's got the equipment Einstein didn't have...) I guess they can do experiments to show that when a man becomes _conscious of his_, or,_ a decision/(choice)_ there's already a lag. In time.

A lag that indicates that what man perceives as his conscious choice...has already come from a place "beneath" conscious choice...a place where the things man commonly calls will and choice...are actually irrelevant terms. This place is "beneath" (or at least "out" of) his _conscious_ control. Where he has erroneously believed his "will to decide" resides.

(Jesus said this also: But the things that come out of the mouth _come from the heart,_ and these things defile a man. For_ out of the heart come evil thoughts_, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, and slander. These are what defile a man...) 

Do I see Jesus as some great neuro-scientist? Some great psychologist? Hardly, he simply knows man, and all about him...how he is constituted, works, and what is seen to him in his own consciousness...and what is assuredly...not.

But Sam Harris is now playing in a place his experiments have led him. Man is not nearly as free in conscious thought...as is (and has been) commonly imagined. What he thinks he has had "control over" is coming from a place in which his own consciousness must cede the field. At least...a place, now being made "conscious of"...that his own consciousness does not have any awareness of..._till after_.


It surely does make Jesus' plea all the more...salient...."they know not what they do".

But some "don't like Jesus". Some tilt toward...maybe Harris...or even Einstein. OK. But both admit to a compelling or "need to" live as though personal responsibility were true, and free will _existed._

But how does one "do this" after the curtain has parted?
Oh, I know the need, I know the compulsion, I'm not immune, as I said "I am in an experiment".

The thought experiment is so easy, _only _a child can do it.

"Free" will is all of mirage. The thing that declares having it...is compelled to...from a place where its own will, as it knows it...does not even exist. Harris seems to indicate this in his experiments...Einstein categorically states he is a determinist. (And I like that Einstein didn't need some EEG type thingy to show him).

But, if you are "the man" for whom the curtain is parted...either by philosophical conviction or manifest electronic investigation(or Jesus Christ!)...the fact remains...you _know_. Men aren't at all..."what they think they are"...for the most part...free...at all in their consciousness. Yet this comes with a compulsion to act as though this is not true at all...and, at the very least...to yourself...the _man feeling_ that compulsion.

"I need to act responsible" while knowing "I am not" (nor is any other man). But we don't take such knowledge to ourselves easily. (How much easier is it to think "none of them know what they do"...than, "gee, me no less") One could argue if "we can all agree" we don't know why or what we do...well, that would seem a place to start. Go ahead...seek to bring a man to agree (let alone the all men that _you know_...don't _know_) that he has no idea why he is what he is, does what he does. (I think we've all heard of the iceberg metaphor, how applicable it is could be questionable...but it is often applied)
Never will you meet such presentation of _motive._ _Of will_. Never will you encounter a more strident opposition to anyone to say "yes, I don't know what I am doing...or even why". You will find men everywhere telling you "why they do what they do"...with such a surety (of only themselves) in everything.

Yet, in this, if you remain convinced...you will meet the ultimate tension...of being among men. The pressure to act responsible is not ameliorated in all this resistance. The LAW to act as though free will were true (for you) does not let up. Even in the midst of all that manifestly does not know...what it is doing.

Yeah...there you will call out for help. From..._the depths_.  "My God, what have I done?"

If any man will do his will (God's will), he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.


----------



## ambush80

hobbs27 said:


> I looked over this. I don't see contradictions at all, and apparently we are too far apart to even communicate on this.. The first one Revelation 12:3 is apocalyptic language describing a Satan.  Yes,  the literal interpretation of it is ludicrous,  but the seven churches in Asia in the first century would have understood it beautifully.  You know,  the Bible is not written to us,  but for us. So we must consider audience relevance,  and cultural differences.
> 
> I was hoping to see a comparison chart such as the Bible says X here,  but denies x there.  Indeed there's places like that,  but all for good reason.



You better go find my Sunday School teacher and scold her for messing all of us  children up by  telling us that Satan was real. She had been doing it for a long time.  She must have done it to lots of kids.

Don't you think He might have told them "This is how you make soap.  Trust me. And wash your hands, for MY sake!!!!"?  How much suffering would that have made?


----------



## hobbs27

ambush80 said:


> You better go find my Sunday School teacher and scold her for messing all of us  children up by  telling us that Satan was real. She had been doing it for a long time.  She must have done it to lots of kids.
> 
> Don't you think He might have told them "This is how you make soap.  Trust me. And wash your hands, for MY sake!!!!"?  How much suffering would that have made?



I'm truly sorry for what kids have been scared with by teachers and preachers. It shouldn't happen.


----------



## atlashunter

SemperFiDawg said:


> We just hashed this out about 2 months ago.  Again, it's nothing more than a self contradictory atheist meme.
> 
> It's based on the assumption that humans (in this case YOU) are all knowing, all powerful, and all loving and thus the ultimate arbiter or good and evil.  Hence, you are asserting that you are the very thing you deny exists.
> 
> This doesn't even begin to address the underlying concept of where atheist get the notion of good and evil.  An atheist should have no qualms with the picture.  It's just nature being nature.  The fact that we all see a picture like that and feel repulsed and saddened is a feeling that atheism can't begin to explain.



No it's just based on simple logic. Something theists struggle with as a general rule.


----------



## atlashunter

SemperFiDawg said:


> Now that's funny right there.  I don't care who you are.



Post up your resume of new testament scholarship and I'll post Ehrman's. People can judge for themselves how they compare.


----------



## atlashunter

SemperFiDawg said:


> That's a straw man and a poor one at that.  Christians say that without God all morals become relative.  That's what you would say if you were being honest, but I guess that's a truth too far.



As it turns out, morals _are_ relative. What a koinky dink!


----------



## atlashunter

hobbs27 said:


> I'm truly sorry for what kids have been scared with by teachers and preachers. It shouldn't happen.



Nor should the burning of "witches" have happened but it did thanks to that book. I'm glad you like to play the "what the bible really meant to say..." game and fill in the blanks as you see fit. Not everyone does that. Some people actually believe the bible means exactly what it says and take it seriously.


----------



## atlashunter

hobbs27 said:


> I was hoping to see a comparison chart such as the Bible says X here,  but denies x there.  Indeed there's places like that,  but all for good reason.



http://bibviz.com/#


----------



## atlashunter




----------



## Josey

atlashunter said:


> No it's just based on simple logic. Something theists struggle with as a general rule.



That's because theists seem to think that circles are straight lines.


----------



## hobbs27

atlashunter said:


> Nor should the burning of "witches" have happened but it did thanks to that book. I'm glad you like to play the "what the bible really meant to say..." game and fill in the blanks as you see fit. Not everyone does that. Some people actually believe the bible means exactly what it says and take it seriously.



 I take the Bible seriously,  and I believe exactly what it says. I just go a little farther than I once did. 
 The He11 doctrine for instance.  Reading almost any English translated version alone,  there would be no reason to doubt it exists.  But a little more investigating and we find of the four different words translated as he11, not a single one of them actually means a place of eternal torments. The YLT got it right,  and never uses the word. The Apostles never preached on the subject,  then we find it was a Greek mythology add-on to Christianity. 
 So,  I'm labeled as someone that goes by their own version,  or makes up and twists scripture to fit what I want to believe.. When actually I allow God's word to shape my beliefs,  as hard as that is to do. Im sure you know the Bible thumping type,  that are so quick to label folks.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

WaltL1 said:


> If only you could hear yourself sometimes.



If only I could find an intellectually honest atheist.  I honestly think there's no such thing.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

WaltL1 said:


> He doesn't want to know.



This is what I want to know.  How does an atheist give an explaination for even having a notion of good and evil.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

atlashunter said:


> No it's just based on simple logic. Something theists struggle with as a general rule.



Asserting something while denying it.  Logic?  Hmmmm.   I see.  Apparently theist aren't the only ones who struggle with it.


----------



## 660griz

SemperFiDawg said:


> This is what I want to know.  How does an atheist give an explaination for even having a notion of good and evil.



It's complicated based on evolution and culture, etc.

Just stick with God did it.


----------



## WaltL1

SemperFiDawg said:


> If only I could find an intellectually honest atheist.  I honestly think there's no such thing.


You honestly think there is no such thing because you don't know what it means.
Dictionaries can be an useful tool.
I personally have suggested this at least half a dozen times not only on the definition of Atheist but on this very subject..
Yet here we are again.


----------



## WaltL1

SemperFiDawg said:


> This is what I want to know.  How does an atheist give an explaination for even having a notion of good and evil.


Griz, an Atheist, has responded to you.
Now you know.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

atlashunter said:


> Post up your resume of new testament scholarship and I'll post Ehrman's. People can judge for themselves how they compare.



Ehrman may have jumped through the requisite hoops to earn his degree, tenure and position, but a scholarly thinker he isn't.  He made his name being a very liberal theologian when they were a novelty.  Reading his books and listening to him debate one is left with the same notion of novelty.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

660griz said:


> It's complicated.



Oh!  I'm sure it is.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

WaltL1 said:


> You honestly think there is no such thing because you don't know what it means.
> Dictionaries can be an useful tool.
> I personally have suggested this at least half a dozen times not only on the definition of Atheist but on this very subject..
> Yet here we are again.



No. Here you are again espousing blatant falsehoods.  Some things never change, hence my doubt in ever meeting an intellectually honest atheist.


----------



## 660griz

SemperFiDawg said:


> Oh!  I'm sure it is.



Very.
For instance, I don't think 12 year old girls should get married at all and is borderline evil. Still happens in the U.S. and pretty much sanctioned by the religious. I think genital mutilation is evil. Once again, religion has no problem with it. Most folks think slavery is bad. Religious text promote it but, todays general culture says it is evil.

200 years ago, I may have had a different view of good and evil...same bible. 
Life span and way of life had a lot to do with 12 year olds marrying. Now, not so much. Forced usually.


----------



## WaltL1

atlashunter said:


>


----------



## WaltL1

SemperFiDawg said:


> No. Here you are again espousing blatant falsehoods.  Some things never change, hence my doubt in ever meeting an intellectually honest atheist.


I spoke fact and a quick search of our history here will confirm it.
Semper Fi you aren't here for any sort of intelligent debate so just set this to loop and keep watching until you've satisfied your craving -


----------



## SemperFiDawg

WaltL1 said:


> I spoke fact and a quick search of our history here will confirm it.



This is your post 





> Yep, when the Christians in here claim that without God there would be no morals



I know of no Christians in here who would say that or stand by that, yet you state it as fact and you use the plural to paint with a broad brush I guess for effect .Care to do a quick search and prove me wrong.


----------



## WaltL1

SemperFiDawg said:


> This is your post
> 
> I know of no Christians in here who would say that or stand by that, yet you state it as fact and you use the plural to paint with a broad brush I guess for effect .Care to do a quick search and prove me wrong.


No this was my post  -


> Originally Posted by WaltL1
> You honestly think there is no such thing because you don't know what it means.
> Dictionaries can be an useful tool.
> I personally have suggested this at least half a dozen times not only on the definition of Atheist but on this very subject..
> Yet here we are again


.
This was your response -


> No. Here you are again espousing blatant falsehoods. Some things never change, hence my doubt in ever meeting an intellectually honest atheist


You called it a blatant falsehood. To which I responded -
Originally Posted by WaltL1  


> I spoke fact and a quick search of our history here will confirm it.


Now you want to pretend you were responding to something else. -


> This is your post
> Quote:
> Yep, when the Christians in here claim that without God there would be no morals


Slow down, try to put a leash on your overwhelming desire to play "I know you are but what am I", and try to follow along to what you are saying and responding to.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

WaltL1 said:


> No this was my post  -
> .
> This was your response -
> 
> You called it a blatant falsehood. To which I responded -
> Originally Posted by WaltL1
> 
> Now you want to pretend you were responding to something else. -
> 
> Slow down, try to put a leash on your overwhelming desire to play "I know you are but what am I", and try to follow along to what you are saying and responding to.



Dude. It all goes back to your post 679 which I quoted and opined on in 701.  It's clear to anyone that's kept up.  Guess you deny posting 679.  Way to change the topic instead of manning up to your straw man lie that you doubled down on.  Perfect example of dishonesty.  I'm done.  Feel free to denigrate at will.  It's expected


----------



## WaltL1

SemperFiDawg said:


> Dude. It all goes back to your post 679 which I quoted and opined on in 701.  It's clear to anyone that's kept up.  Guess you deny posting 679.  Way to change the topic instead of manning up to your straw man lie that you doubled down on.  Perfect example of dishonesty.  I'm done.  Feel free to denigrate at will.  It's expected


Nope if you promise you are done I'll happily not show the ridiculousness of this post along with the others. I promise.


----------



## bullethead

SemperFiDawg said:


> This is your post
> 
> I know of no Christians in here who would say that or stand by that, yet you state it as fact and you use the plural to paint with a broad brush I guess for effect .Care to do a quick search and prove me wrong.


You seriously are a troublemaker in complete denial.  Stringmusic had an entire thread about 
It, maybe more because he has EtchAsketch-itis too.


----------



## atlashunter

SemperFiDawg said:


> Ehrman may have jumped through the requisite hoops to earn his degree, tenure and position, but a scholarly thinker he isn't.  He made his name being a very liberal theologian when they were a novelty.  Reading his books and listening to him debate one is left with the same notion of novelty.



Not interested in your opinions on Ehrman. Just post up your credentials in the field and then people can compare and decide for themselves.


----------



## Israel

What are credentials...really?

I'm no linguist, no scholar, no expert, in anything.
But one needn't be anything but in the world to have a varying degree of exposure to certain things, even language. So with my limited exposure I needn't go to google for what I perceive as the  essence of that word. It's got "cred" in it, probably from credo...or some word for belief.

So, I'm gonna think credentials are no more than a thing given by man, to a man that is supposed to make him believable in whatever field the credentials are given. In simpler terms it's men saying "you can trust this guy...about this thing". To (whomever the "us" is) "we have found he meets the (at least) minimum criteria to have something to say, or do, in this field".

Bur really, none of it speaks to the heart, does it? Of its trueness, soundness or honesty. It's not that they are useless...but trusting in them in a matter so deep that _only is matter of heart_, well they might be nothing more than a distraction.


----------



## 660griz

Israel said:


> What are credentials...really?


 It's complicated.  




> So, I'm gonna think credentials are no more than a thing given by man, to a man that is supposed to make him believable in whatever field the credentials are given. In simpler terms it's men saying "you can trust this guy...about this thing". To (whomever the "us" is) "we have found he meets the (at least) minimum criteria to have something to say, or do, in this field".


 Well, in a complex way, you have a way of over simplifying. 

"Speaks to the heart." and "Matters of the heart" are just emotions. Brain waves. Someone with 'credentials' are to have (supposedly) studied the matter objectively without emotions. Emotions cloud the mind and prevent honest results.


----------



## Israel

660griz said:


> It's complicated.
> 
> 
> Well, in a complex way, you have a way of over simplifying.
> 
> "Speaks to the heart." and "Matters of the heart" are just emotions. Brain waves. Someone with 'credentials' are to have (supposedly) studied the matter objectively without emotions. Emotions cloud the mind and prevent honest results.



I am glad you included "supposedly". I can rarely stop at a red light without some attendant emotion, so that caveat helps someone like me.


----------



## atlashunter

Israel said:


> What are credentials...really?
> 
> I'm no linguist, no scholar, no expert, in anything.
> But one needn't be anything but in the world to have a varying degree of exposure to certain things, even language. So with my limited exposure I needn't go to google for what I perceive as the  essence of that word. It's got "cred" in it, probably from credo...or some word for belief.
> 
> So, I'm gonna think credentials are no more than a thing given by man, to a man that is supposed to make him believable in whatever field the credentials are given. In simpler terms it's men saying "you can trust this guy...about this thing". To (whomever the "us" is) "we have found he meets the (at least) minimum criteria to have something to say, or do, in this field".
> 
> Bur really, none of it speaks to the heart, does it? Of its trueness, soundness or honesty. It's not that they are useless...but trusting in them in a matter so deep that _only is matter of heart_, well they might be nothing more than a distraction.



Credentials are supposed to be evidence of achievement. They show a person has completed a certain coursework and tested to show competency in that field. Yes they are given by man. So what? That doesn't automatically mean they have no validity. That has to be examined on an individual basis as to how much credibility the source has. Religion is also man made, often by ignorant and superstitious people who lived a long time ago.

Like I said at the outset, people can judge for themselves how semper's resume in New Testament scholarship stacks up against Ehrman's. He doesn't agree with Ehrman's positions. That's fine. But it takes more than that to discredit a man who has spent his life and career becoming a recognized expert in this field. Intellectual honesty demands recognition of that. By all means attack his positions and show how they are wrong. Semper can't do that and he knows it. Ehrman has probably forgotten more about scripture than semper will ever know. So instead of refuting Ehrman he just lies and says Ehrman is not a scholar. That's waving the white flag of surrender on his part.


----------



## hobbs27

atlashunter said:


> Credentials are supposed to be evidence of achievement. They show a person has completed a certain coursework and tested to show competency in that field. Yes they are given by man. So what? That doesn't automatically mean they have no validity. That has to be examined on an individual basis as to how much credibility the source has. Religion is also man made, often by ignorant and superstitious people who lived a long time ago.
> 
> Like I said at the outset, people can judge for themselves how semper's resume in New Testament scholarship stacks up against Ehrman's. He doesn't agree with Ehrman's positions. That's fine. But it takes more than that to discredit a man who has spent his life and career becoming a recognized expert in this field. Intellectual honesty demands recognition of that. By all means attack his positions and show how they are wrong. Semper can't do that and he knows it. Ehrman has probably forgotten more about scripture than semper will ever know. So instead of refuting Ehrman he just lies and says Ehrman is not a scholar. That's waving the white flag of surrender on his part.



How is it then,  men with almost equal credentials can disagree on one subject so much?  If credentials makes one credible, how can a man of equal credentials discredit the other? 
 Remember,  we were told Obama was a constitutional scholar?


----------



## j_seph

Are Atheist really just lost and confused? Are they struggling with they cannot makeup their mind if there is a God or not? Do they have control issues where they can not handle the Fact that there is a God that has control?

Was it just happen chance that this planet of all the others is the one that is inhabited? Why was there oxygen provided for all to breathe, plants that grow so that animals can eat, insects to pollinate those plants so that they can continue to reproduce to provide food for animals and humans alike? How can anyone look at the existence of this world and not see that it took a greater power as in God to create this? Everything we ever needed was provided for us. We as humans through greed/sins/lusts for the most part have caused much of the problems on this earth. My 18 year old daughters favorite verse is Genesis 1:1, God loved what he had created so much he gave his son John 3:16, it didn't say he loved parts of it and not other parts of it. He sent a means for you and I to overcome sin so that we would have eternal life and so that this world could be a great place. Think about this, had each person have done as instructed from the beginning or even after the resurrection would this world not be a better place today?


----------



## j_seph

hobbs27 said:


> How is it then,  men with almost equal credentials can disagree on one subject so much?  If credentials makes one credible, how can a man of equal credentials discredit the other?
> Remember,  we were told Obama was a constitutional scholar?


Our Lord has all the credentials and we have men/women with way less credentials that discredit him all the time every day.


----------



## Israel

atlashunter said:


> Credentials are supposed to be evidence of achievement. They show a person has completed a certain coursework and tested to show competency in that field. Yes they are given by man. So what? That doesn't automatically mean they have no validity. That has to be examined on an individual basis as to how much credibility the source has. Religion is also man made, often by ignorant and superstitious people who lived a long time ago.
> 
> Like I said at the outset, people can judge for themselves how semper's resume in New Testament scholarship stacks up against Ehrman's. He doesn't agree with Ehrman's positions. That's fine. But it takes more than that to discredit a man who has spent his life and career becoming a recognized expert in this field. Intellectual honesty demands recognition of that. By all means attack his positions and show how they are wrong. Semper can't do that and he knows it. Ehrman has probably forgotten more about scripture than semper will ever know. So instead of refuting Ehrman he just lies and says Ehrman is not a scholar. That's waving the white flag of surrender on his part.



I don't disagree with anything you say.  I didn't intend a denigration of "man's endorsement", but it is what it is on its face...men saying another man is qualified. That's fine in its applied context. I'm not making a "pitch" against credentials, just acknowledging their limits in certain matters.


----------



## MiGGeLLo

hobbs27 said:


> How is it then,  men with almost equal credentials can disagree on one subject so much?  If credentials makes one credible, how can a man of equal credentials discredit the other?
> Remember,  we were told Obama was a constitutional scholar?



This really depends on the field. In most 'hard' scientific disciplines such as physics or mathematics, there are facts that all experts agree on, including a bunch of stuff that cannot be understood without a hefty repertoire of background knowledge, and then there are theories that have not been proven yet that different experts in the field have different opinions about.

In softer 'subjective' fields such as theology or history or Literature or (insert humanities subject here) there are some shared sources that most scholars agree are relevant, and perhaps many scholars even agree on how to interpret certain events. 

However with the variety and uncertainty of the sources, and in the case of religions the numerous internal contradictions even within their holy texts, experts on the subject are going to have many different opinions, sometimes even on the basics. It is no coincidence that there are so many denominations and factions within religious groups.

Even so credentials such as a doctorate in theology indicate a rigorous study of the subject matter, including having explored the arguments of other scholars such that they at least understand _why_ other scholars have different opinions from their own. They also tend to argue their points with a semblance of logical consistency.

Ultimately arguments have to stand on their own, but credentials give us a way to 'separate the wheat from the chaff' in a world where we don't have the time to learn each individual claimant's history to decide how seriously we should take their claims to begin with.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> How is it then,  men with almost equal credentials can disagree on one subject so much?  If credentials makes one credible, how can a man of equal credentials discredit the other?
> Remember,  we were told Obama was a constitutional scholar?



Many varying levels of sanctification. Always learning and re-learning.
We all see through the glass darkly, but when the temporal becomes eternal, we shall know as we are known.


----------



## WaltL1

Israel said:


> What are credentials...really?
> 
> I'm no linguist, no scholar, no expert, in anything.
> But one needn't be anything but in the world to have a varying degree of exposure to certain things, even language. So with my limited exposure I needn't go to google for what I perceive as the  essence of that word. It's got "cred" in it, probably from credo...or some word for belief.
> 
> So, I'm gonna think credentials are no more than a thing given by man, to a man that is supposed to make him believable in whatever field the credentials are given. In simpler terms it's men saying "you can trust this guy...about this thing". To (whomever the "us" is) "we have found he meets the (at least) minimum criteria to have something to say, or do, in this field".
> 
> Bur really, none of it speaks to the heart, does it? Of its trueness, soundness or honesty. It's not that they are useless...but trusting in them in a matter so deep that _only is matter of heart_, well they might be nothing more than a distraction.


I'm with you 50% concerning "credentials". In fact the only place I watch these "accredited" people's (on ALL sides) podcasts is on this forum. I view many of these "experts" as just another guy with another opinion.
On the flip side -
If one wants to learn about their car's engine, an accredited mechanic is probably a good place to start as opposed to a baker.
Leaky pipe? An accredited plumber as opposed to the checkout person at Walmart. Etc etc.
Being accredited doesn't guarantee they are "right".
NOT being accredited doesn't mean you don't know what you are talking about.


> But really, none of it speaks to the heart, does it? Of its trueness, soundness or honesty.


Should trueness, soundness or honesty be measured/judged by whether it makes your heart do flip flops?
Trueness - is it true or false? Facts determine that.
Soundness - is it accurate? Facts determine that.
Honesty - is what you are being told true? Facts determine that.
An "accredited" person is supposedly more familiar with the facts of the subject.


> but trusting in them in a matter so deep that _only is matter of heart_, well they might be nothing more than a distraction.


One might translate this to -
"Don't let the facts distract you from what you believe".
An accredited zoologist will tell you donkey's don't have the structure to speak. That's true. That's sound. That's honest.
Your heart tells you they can.
An accredited Botanist will tell you a wooden staff can't turn into a snake. True, sound and honest.
Your heart tells you it can.......


----------



## ambush80

MiGGeLLo said:


> This really depends on the field. In most 'hard' scientific disciplines such as physics or mathematics, there are facts that all experts agree on, including a bunch of stuff that cannot be understood without a hefty repertoire of background knowledge, and then there are theories that have not been proven yet that different experts in the field have different opinions about.
> 
> In softer 'subjective' fields such as theology or history or Literature or (insert humanities subject here) there are some shared sources that most scholars agree are relevant, and perhaps many scholars even agree on how to interpret certain events.
> 
> However with the variety and uncertainty of the sources, and in the case of religions the numerous internal contradictions even within their holy texts, experts on the subject are going to have many different opinions, sometimes even on the basics. It is no coincidence that there are so many denominations and factions within religious groups.
> 
> Even so credentials such as a doctorate in theology indicate a rigorous study of the subject matter, including having explored the arguments of other scholars such that they at least understand _why_ other scholars have different opinions from their own. They also tend to argue their points with a semblance of logical consistency.
> 
> Ultimately arguments have to stand on their own, but credentials give us a way to 'separate the wheat from the chaff' in a world where we don't have the time to learn each individual claimant's history to decide how seriously we should take their claims to begin with.




That's a great point.  Can any of the believers here state why we non believers don't believe?  Don't try to do some kind of pschoanalysis about "not wanting to be ruled over", just describe as best you can a non-believers logical reasons for not believing.


I can say that for Jseph that one of the reasons that he believes in God is that 

1.  he can't comprehend the complexity of the Universe without some supernatural being having a hand in it.  

2.  Believers have had a "***** of the heart", a personal internal experience that has led them to believe in Christ.  

3.  Many point to "fulfilled prophesy" as one of the reasons that they believe in the truth of the Bible.  

4.  Many believers have had a "miraculous" event happen in their lives that they attribute to God, specifically the God of Abraham.

Do I understand the believer's positions correctly?
See if you can do the same for a non-believer.  If you don't understand the other side's argument then your argument against it is incomplete.


----------



## WaltL1

j_seph said:


> Are Atheist really just lost and confused? Are they struggling with they cannot makeup their mind if there is a God or not? Do they have control issues where they can not handle the Fact that there is a God that has control?
> 
> Was it just happen chance that this planet of all the others is the one that is inhabited? Why was there oxygen provided for all to breathe, plants that grow so that animals can eat, insects to pollinate those plants so that they can continue to reproduce to provide food for animals and humans alike? How can anyone look at the existence of this world and not see that it took a greater power as in God to create this? Everything we ever needed was provided for us. We as humans through greed/sins/lusts for the most part have caused much of the problems on this earth. My 18 year old daughters favorite verse is Genesis 1:1, God loved what he had created so much he gave his son John 3:16, it didn't say he loved parts of it and not other parts of it. He sent a means for you and I to overcome sin so that we would have eternal life and so that this world could be a great place. Think about this, had each person have done as instructed from the beginning or even after the resurrection would this world not be a better place today?





> Was it just happen chance that this planet of all the others is the one that is inhabited?


See anything wrong with this?


> Why was there oxygen provided for all to breathe, plants that grow so that animals can eat, insects to pollinate those plants so that they can continue to reproduce to provide food for animals and humans alike?


So you've chosen questions that confirm what you already believe. Some other questions might be -


> Why was there oxygen provided for all to breathe,


Why is the earth more than 70% water but we cant breathe underwater?


> plants that grow so that animals can eat,


Why do some plants kill the animals (including humans) that eat them?


> insects to pollinate those plants so that they can continue to reproduce to provide food for animals and humans alike?


Were plants put here to feed us or did we figure out we could eat them? (excluding the ones that can kill us)


> How can anyone look at the existence of this world and not see that it took a greater power as in God to create this?


Why are there so many gods credited with creation? How can anyone pick one and say "he/she/it did it".

Your questions are legitimate.
Your answers are nothing more than what you believe.


----------



## ky55

j_seph said:


> Think about this, had each person have done as instructed from the beginning or even after the resurrection would this world not be a better place today?



No.


----------



## welderguy

ambush80 said:


> Can any of the believers here state why we non believers don't believe?  Don't try to do some kind of pschoanalysis about "not wanting to be ruled over", just describe as best you can a non-believers logical reasons for not believing.



Because they do not possess the ability to believe. That is something that must come from God, with no help from man.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Because they do not possess the ability to believe. That is something that must come from God, with no help from man.



Believers do not get something from god. They posess the ability to believe because they give it to themselves. It manifests out of need.
Members of all types of religions think membership is because they are special,  but it is actually because of the effort and time they put into it.


----------



## atlashunter

hobbs27 said:


> How is it then,  men with almost equal credentials can disagree on one subject so much?  If credentials makes one credible, how can a man of equal credentials discredit the other?
> Remember,  we were told Obama was a constitutional scholar?



There isn't as much disagreement among textual critics like Ehrman as you would like to think.


----------



## atlashunter

j_seph said:


> Are Atheist really just lost and confused? Are they struggling with they cannot makeup their mind if there is a God or not? Do they have control issues where they can not handle the Fact that there is a God that has control?
> 
> Was it just happen chance that this planet of all the others is the one that is inhabited? Why was there oxygen provided for all to breathe, plants that grow so that animals can eat, insects to pollinate those plants so that they can continue to reproduce to provide food for animals and humans alike? How can anyone look at the existence of this world and not see that it took a greater power as in God to create this? Everything we ever needed was provided for us. We as humans through greed/sins/lusts for the most part have caused much of the problems on this earth. My 18 year old daughters favorite verse is Genesis 1:1, God loved what he had created so much he gave his son John 3:16, it didn't say he loved parts of it and not other parts of it. He sent a means for you and I to overcome sin so that we would have eternal life and so that this world could be a great place. Think about this, had each person have done as instructed from the beginning or even after the resurrection would this world not be a better place today?



You made a request of me earlier in this thread. I answered that request. So far I haven't seen a response from you.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Believers do not get something from god. They posess the ability to believe because they give it to themselves. It manifests out of need.
> Members of all types of religions think membership is because they are special,  but it is actually because of the effort and time they put into it.



Typical non-believer response. You do not possess the ability to see it the other way.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Typical non-believer response. You do not possess the ability to see it the other way.



Actually i just wanted to take a page from your script and see what it felt like to throw out claims that I cannot back up.

You do not posess the ability to provide facts.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Actually i just wanted to take a page from your script and see what it felt like to throw out claims that I cannot back up.
> 
> You do not posess the ability to provide facts.



If you think you have the ability to believe, then why don't you?
You've said numerous times that you would welcome God to make Himself manifest to you. If you truly want that, and you indeed have the ability, then what's stopping you? Sounds like you're contradicting yourself to me.


----------



## Israel

WaltL1 said:


> I'm with you 50% concerning "credentials". In fact the only place I watch these "accredited" people's (on ALL sides) podcasts is on this forum. I view many of these "experts" as just another guy with another opinion.
> On the flip side -
> If one wants to learn about their car's engine, an accredited mechanic is probably a good place to start as opposed to a baker.
> Leaky pipe? An accredited plumber as opposed to the checkout person at Walmart. Etc etc.
> Being accredited doesn't guarantee they are "right".
> NOT being accredited doesn't mean you don't know what you are talking about.
> 
> Should trueness, soundness or honesty be measured/judged by whether it makes your heart do flip flops?
> Trueness - is it true or false? Facts determine that.
> Soundness - is it accurate? Facts determine that.
> Honesty - is what you are being told true? Facts determine that.
> An "accredited" person is supposedly more familiar with the facts of the subject.
> 
> One might translate this to -
> "Don't let the facts distract you from what you believe".
> An accredited zoologist will tell you donkey's don't have the structure to speak. That's true. That's sound. That's honest.
> Your heart tells you they can.
> An accredited Botanist will tell you a wooden staff can't turn into a snake. True, sound and honest.
> Your heart tells you it can.......



It has nothing to do with flip flops, smelling roses or hearing choirs. That could happen, I suppose, but that is not at all my implication.


----------



## atlashunter

welderguy said:


> If you think you have the ability to believe, then why don't you?
> You've said numerous times that you would welcome God to make Himself manifest to you. If you truly want that, and you indeed have the ability, then what's stopping you? Sounds like you're contradicting yourself to me.



He doesn't believe in Yahweh for the the same reason you don't believe in Poseidon or Ra.


----------



## atlashunter

Israel said:


> It has nothing to do with flip flops, smelling roses or hearing choirs. That could happen, I suppose, but that is not at all my implication.



The heart has a terrible track record of discovering truth. The heart leads children to believe Santa Claus is real. Gods are just adult Santa Claus with a bunch of woo woo icing.


----------



## j_seph

atlashunter said:


> That could be really lengthy and I'm not inclined to put the time into a detailed write up. But I will start a separate thread and we can discuss if you have any questions.


Please do when you have time. Thank you


----------



## Israel

atlashunter said:


> The heart has a terrible track record of discovering truth. The heart leads children to believe Santa Claus is real. Gods are just adult Santa Claus with a bunch of woo woo icing.



OK...your point seems pretty clear.


----------



## WaltL1

atlashunter said:


> The heart has a terrible track record of discovering truth. The heart leads children to believe Santa Claus is real. Gods are just adult Santa Claus with a bunch of woo woo icing.


Nah the heart just pumps blood.
Indoctrination leads children to believe in S.C.  

Yes I know you don't think the heart "thinks".


----------



## TripleXBullies

bullethead said:


> Believers do not get something from god. They posess the ability to believe because they give it to themselves. It manifests out of need.
> Members of all types of religions think membership is because they are special,  but it is actually because of the effort and time they put into it.





bullethead said:


> Actually i just wanted to take a page from your script and see what it felt like to throw out claims that I cannot back up.
> 
> You do not posess the ability to provide facts.




Wow... I didn't think that seemed like typical bullethead!


----------



## atlashunter

j_seph said:


> Please do when you have time. Thank you



Already did and referenced it here. See the Deconversion thread.


----------



## ambush80

TripleXBullies said:


> Wow... I didn't think that seemed like typical bullethead!




Why was the error of it so easy to recognize when Bullet did it but they can't see when they do it themselves?


----------



## ambush80

welderguy said:


> Because they do not possess the ability to believe. That is something that must come from God, with no help from man.



Well.....That's incontrovertible.  

Pssst.  It really isn't. Nor is it good reasoning.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> If you think you have the ability to believe, then why don't you?
> You've said numerous times that you would welcome God to make Himself manifest to you. If you truly want that, and you indeed have the ability, then what's stopping you? Sounds like you're contradicting yourself to me.


I am open to all possibilities Welder. I have the ability to believe in darn near anything but I tend to go with whatever evidence supports.

Can you believe that Mighty Mouse is the strongest,  fastest, most flyingest mouse to ever fight for justice?
Of course you can once you set your mind to being able to blend the imaginable with reality. But deep down you know that it is still a cartoon mouse.
Now, if a super strong, caped flying little mouse appears to you and lifts you off the ground with one paw as he hovers 5ft off the ground you will change your mind quickly.

But we both know that you and I are not going to just believe in a flying superhero mouse simply because we are capable of of believing it. Well at least I am not.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> I am open to all possibilities Welder. I have the ability to believe in darn near anything but I tend to go with whatever evidence supports.
> 
> Can you believe that Mighty Mouse is the strongest,  fastest, most flyingest mouse to ever fight for justice?
> Of course you can once you set your mind to being able to blend the imaginable with reality. But deep down you know that it is still a cartoon mouse.
> Now, if a super strong, caped flying little mouse appears to you and lifts you off the ground with one paw as he hovers 5ft off the ground you will change your mind quickly.
> 
> But we both know that you and I are not going to just believe in a flying superhero mouse simply because we are capable of of believing it. Well at least I am not.



You are not hearing what I'm telling you. Yes you have the ability to believe in mighty mouse and santa clause and anything else you can conjure up....EXCEPT Jesus Christ. That is the one thing you do not have the ability to believe in until you are spiritually changed.

People all over the world are believing in everything you can think of, but those that believe on Jesus have been given that. It's that simple. Y'all love to compare belief in Jesus to every other belief, but it's not the same.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> You are not hearing what I'm telling you. Yes you have the ability to believe in mighty mouse and santa clause and anything else you can conjure up....EXCEPT Jesus Christ. That is the one thing you do not have the ability to believe in until you are spiritually changed.
> 
> People all over the world are believing in everything you can think of, but those that believe on Jesus have been given that. It's that simple. Y'all love to compare belief in Jesus to every other belief, but it's not the same.


Oh I hear you, I just do not believe you based off of the fact that in thousands of posts you have never backed up a single thing that you claimed.
Welder if what you say is true then the facts that prove it should be easy to provide.
I expect them in your next post.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> You are not hearing what I'm telling you. Yes you have the ability to believe in mighty mouse and santa clause and anything else you can conjure up....EXCEPT Jesus Christ. That is the one thing you do not have the ability to believe in until you are spiritually changed.
> 
> People all over the world are believing in everything you can think of, but those that believe on Jesus have been given that. It's that simple. Y'all love to compare belief in Jesus to every other belief, but it's not the same.



The god of exceptions. I love it.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Oh I hear you, I just do not believe you based off of the fact that in thousands of posts you have never backed up a single thing that you claimed.
> Welder if what you say is true then the facts that prove it should be easy to provide.
> I expect them in your next post.



Do you believe me when I tell you I was not looking for Jesus when He touched me and changed me?


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Do you believe me when I tell you I was not looking for Jesus when He touched me and changed me?



 You didnt back up your claim.


----------



## ambush80

welderguy said:


> Do you believe me when I tell you I was not looking for Jesus when He touched me and changed me?



I do not and I've told you why lots of times.


----------



## MiGGeLLo

welderguy said:


> Do you believe me when I tell you I was not looking for Jesus when He touched me and changed me?



I didn't know you were catholic.


----------



## ambush80

MiGGeLLo said:


> I didn't know you were catholic.


----------



## atlashunter

welderguy said:


> Do you believe me when I tell you I was not looking for Jesus when He touched me and changed me?



Where exactly did he touch you?


----------



## 660griz

j_seph said:


> Are Atheist really just lost and confused?


 Define lost and confused. Some atheist as well as some religious, may be lost and confused. Depends on 'from what'. 


> Are they struggling with they cannot makeup their mind if there is a God or not?


 I think the definition of an atheist should help you with that question. I am not struggling to make up my mind. It is done. 





> Do they have control issues where they can not handle the Fact that there is a God that has control?


 God has control? Now that is funny. 



> Was it just happen chance that this planet of all the others is the one that is inhabited?


 Maybe. How do you know all the other planets are not inhabited? 





> Why was there oxygen provided for all to breathe, plants that grow so that animals can eat, insects to pollinate those plants so that they can continue to reproduce to provide food for animals and humans alike? How can anyone look at the existence of this world and not see that it took a greater power as in God to create this?


 Why would a God make a planet and make so much of it inhabitable? Why would he make man in his image but, make us have to eat therefore susceptible to starvation, have to breath, get cold, get hot.  





> Everything we ever needed was provided for us.


 What about the millions of years there was no man on earth? Did he wait for everything to settle down before making man? Why no bible at the onset of man? What was he waiting for?


----------



## 660griz

atlashunter said:


> Where exactly did he touch you?



Show me on the doll.


----------



## welderguy

ambush80 said:


> I do not and I've told you why lots of times.



Do you believe in the depravity of man?
The last few posts should be ample proof.


----------



## centerpin fan

660griz said:


> Define lost and confused.



Original title of Led Zeppelin classic.


----------



## atlashunter

welderguy said:


> Do you believe in the depravity of man?
> The last few posts should be ample proof.



Depravity? You're the one who made the rather remarkable claim that someone who lived and died 2,000 years ago touched you. Is it unreasonable to ask for some details?


----------



## WaltL1

centerpin fan said:


> Original title of Led Zeppelin classic.


Dazed and Confused.



Unless it was Lost and Confused originally?


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Do you believe in the depravity of man?
> The last few posts should be ample proof.



Speaking of proof welder......


----------



## WaltL1

MiGGeLLo said:


> I didn't know you were catholic.


You just surpassed Centerpin as being the current "bad, bad, boy"


----------



## ambush80

WaltL1 said:


> Dazed and Confused.
> 
> 
> 
> Unless it was Lost and Confused originally?


----------



## j_seph

I know of 3 people who prayed that they would not cry, tear up one went for 2 years after that and never cried about anything. The other a year and the other 10 months.
They normally would cry about everytime they prayed, preached, or testified. 
Did they convince their-self to not cry over anything at all for that amount of time? Not IMO


----------



## ambush80

j_seph said:


> I know of 3 people who prayed that they would not cry, tear up one went for 2 years after that and never cried about anything. The other a year and the other 10 months.
> They normally would cry about everytime they prayed, preached, or testified.
> Did they convince their-self to not cry over anything at all for that amount of time? Not IMO




Oh my.  That's EVIDENCE to you?  Your standards for evidence are VERY low.


----------



## 660griz

j_seph said:


> I know of 3 people who prayed that they would not cry, tear up one went for 2 years after that and never cried about anything. The other a year and the other 10 months.
> They normally would cry about everytime they prayed, preached, or testified.
> Did they convince their-self to not cry over anything at all for that amount of time? Not IMO



Wow! 
So, God had planned for them to cry for the rest of their lives but, changed his plan because they prayed?
 God is a real micromanager and will change his plan for prayer. Interesting cause I heard different. 
As a matter of fact, when folks pray for a child with a terminal illness to miraculously be cured, the child dies anyway and the excuse is, it was God's plan. 
He won't change his plan to save a child but, will change it to stop eye leakage. 

The more I hear, the better I feel about my decision.


----------



## ambush80

660griz said:


> Wow!
> So, God had planned for them to cry for the rest of their lives but, changed his plan because they prayed?
> God is a real micromanager and will change his plan for prayer. Interesting cause I heard different.
> As a matter of fact, when folks pray for a child with a terminal illness to miraculously be cured, the child dies anyway and the excuse is, it was God's plan.
> He won't change his plan to save a child but, will change it to stop eye leakage.
> 
> The more I hear, the better I feel about my decision.



Pray to me.  My answer will be "Yes, no or not yet".  Watch what happens.


----------



## welderguy

660griz said:


> Wow!
> So, God had planned for them to cry for the rest of their lives but, changed his plan because they prayed?
> God is a real micromanager and will change his plan for prayer. Interesting cause I heard different.
> As a matter of fact, when folks pray for a child with a terminal illness to miraculously be cured, the child dies anyway and the excuse is, it was God's plan.
> He won't change his plan to save a child but, will change it to stop eye leakage.
> 
> The more I hear, the better I feel about my decision.



Paul prayed three times for the removal of his affliction. God did not remove it but instead said "my grace is sufficient".

Why is it so hard to believe that God does whatsoever He will?...or that God moves men to pray?
Seems so simple to me.


----------



## ambush80

welderguy said:


> Paul prayed three times for the removal of his affliction. God did not remove it but instead said "my grace is sufficient".
> 
> Why is it so hard to believe that God does whatsoever He will?...or that God moves men to pray?
> Seems so simple to me.



Yes.  That idea is simple.

What do you think would happen if someone prayed to me and I guaranteed them that my answer would be "Yes, No, Or not right now"?  Would their prayer be fulfilled?


----------



## welderguy

ambush80 said:


> Yes.  That idea is simple.
> 
> What do you think would happen if someone prayed to me and I guaranteed them that my answer would be "Yes, No, Or not right now"?  Would their prayer be fulfilled?



You can't even "hear" that prayer, much less answer it.


----------



## ambush80

welderguy said:


> You can't even "hear" that prayer, much less answer it.




Prove it.


----------



## ambush80

welderguy said:


> You can't even "hear" that prayer, much less answer it.



I will prove I heard it the same way that you prove that God hears your prayers.


----------



## ambush80

ambush80 said:


> I will prove I heard it the same way that you prove that God hears your prayers.



What you will find is that my proof is just as dumb as yours.  Let's do it.


----------



## atlashunter

welderguy said:


> Paul prayed three times for the removal of his affliction. God did not remove it but instead said "my grace is sufficient".
> 
> Why is it so hard to believe that God does whatsoever He will?...or that God moves men to pray?
> Seems so simple to me.



That makes Jesus a liar.

12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask[a] anything in My name, I will do it.

Or the author of John is a liar. Take your pick.

What does it say about your religion that prayer to your god has no more effectiveness than prayer to any other god or an inanimate object?


----------



## j_seph

660griz said:


> Wow!
> So, God had planned for them to cry for the rest of their lives but, changed his plan because they prayed?
> God is a real micromanager and will change his plan for prayer. Interesting cause I heard different.
> As a matter of fact, when folks pray for a child with a terminal illness to miraculously be cured, the child dies anyway and the excuse is, it was God's plan.
> He won't change his plan to save a child but, will change it to stop eye leakage.
> 
> The more I hear, the better I feel about my decision.


Like I have said before, one of the few things I remember my late wife saying was "God has a plan, we may not like it but he has a plan". Had I not been with her, I would not be the person today that I am. I know 3 kids that would never know what a real daddys love was like. There is also a beautiful, Christian lady in this fairy tale if that is what you would like to see it as that never knew what a real marriage and Love from a husband was like. So all I can offer again is prayer for y'all that one day something goes snap and ya get this opportunity. Bless y'all


----------



## 660griz

j_seph said:


> Like I have said before, one of the few things I remember my late wife saying was "God has a plan, we may not like it but he has a plan". Had I not been with her, I would not be the person today that I am. I know 3 kids that would never know what a real daddys love was like. There is also a beautiful, Christian lady in this fairy tale if that is what you would like to see it as that never knew what a real marriage and Love from a husband was like. So all I can offer again is prayer for y'all that one day something goes snap and ya get this opportunity. Bless y'all



I have 3 kids and a step son that never knew what a real dad was. Got two rescue dogs and a rescue cat. Found the kitten in a parking lot after somebody drove up and dumped him out. Marriage is great. Kids are great. Life is great. 
Atheist prayer answered too. No help from deity needed.


----------



## ambush80

j_seph said:


> Like I have said before, one of the few things I remember my late wife saying was "God has a plan, we may not like it but he has a plan". Had I not been with her, I would not be the person today that I am. I know 3 kids that would never know what a real daddys love was like. There is also a beautiful, Christian lady in this fairy tale if that is what you would like to see it as that never knew what a real marriage and Love from a husband was like. So all I can offer again is prayer for y'all that one day something goes snap and ya get this opportunity. Bless y'all




People can fix themselves and become good without believing in things that they have no proof of.  It actually makes the "fix" stronger because they take full responsibility for it.


----------



## ambush80

atlashunter said:


> That makes Jesus a liar.
> 
> 12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask[a] anything in My name, I will do it.
> 
> Or the author of John is a liar. Take your pick.
> 
> What does it say about your religion that prayer to your god has no more effectiveness than prayer to any other god or an inanimate object?



Or to me.


----------



## 660griz

ambush80 said:


> People can fix themselves and become good without believing in things that have no proof.  It actually makes the "fix" stronger because they take full responsibility for it.



Exactly. Folks always calling for help for something to something. To call them 'weak' may be a 'strong' word but, I think it is accurate.


----------



## ambush80

660griz said:


> Exactly. Folks always calling for help for something to somebody. To call them 'weak' may be a 'strong' word but, I think it is accurate.



I can see the usefulness of asking for help from real people but not from make believe people.  But like I said before, if believing in make believe is the only thing that keeps some of these guys from going "postal" then it's worth something.

I just wish they would take the time to figure out how to get a hold of themselves and make sense of the world without having to resort to superstition.  

_Definition of superstition

    1
    a :  a belief or practice resulting from ignorance, fear of the unknown, trust in magic or chance, or a false conception of causationb :  an irrational abject attitude of mind toward the supernatural, nature, or God resulting from superstition

    2
    :  a notion maintained despite evidence to the contrary_


----------



## 660griz

ambush80 said:


> I can see the usefulness of asking for help from real people but not from make believe people.



I fixed it.


----------



## atlashunter

j_seph said:


> Like I have said before, one of the few things I remember my late wife saying was "God has a plan, we may not like it but he has a plan". Had I not been with her, I would not be the person today that I am. I know 3 kids that would never know what a real daddys love was like. There is also a beautiful, Christian lady in this fairy tale if that is what you would like to see it as that never knew what a real marriage and Love from a husband was like. So all I can offer again is prayer for y'all that one day something goes snap and ya get this opportunity. Bless y'all



If things had been different they would have been different, therefore a plan. Logic fail.


----------



## hobbs27

atlashunter said:


> That makes Jesus a liar.
> 
> 12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask[a] anything in My name, I will do it.
> 
> Or the author of John is a liar. Take your pick.
> 
> What does it say about your religion that prayer to your god has no more effectiveness than prayer to any other god or an inanimate object?



I don't think you should accuse anyone of being a liar when you don't even understand the premise. 

First.. Those that believe in Jesus would do the works Jesus had done... Secondly He said to His disciples..  I say to you... So Jesus is telling them,  of you that believe,  you also shall do the works I have done, and they did! 

Also...  Whatever they (His disciples)  asked in His name,  He did for them. 

You must consider audience relevance,  because  what we are reading here was a conversation between Christ and His disciples.. Not Christ to the whole world.  There was a time in which Christ went away to prepare a place.  In that time He sent a comforter, and He gave spiritual gifts, we read all about it in Acts,  but that time has expired and is no longer needed.


----------



## bullethead

j_seph said:


> I know of 3 people who prayed that they would not cry, tear up one went for 2 years after that and never cried about anything. The other a year and the other 10 months.
> They normally would cry about everytime they prayed, preached, or testified.
> Did they convince their-self to not cry over anything at all for that amount of time? Not IMO


Solid man. Solid stuff right there.


----------



## bullethead

j_seph said:


> Like I have said before, one of the few things I remember my late wife saying was "God has a plan, we may not like it but he has a plan". Had I not been with her, I would not be the person today that I am. I know 3 kids that would never know what a real daddys love was like. There is also a beautiful, Christian lady in this fairy tale if that is what you would like to see it as that never knew what a real marriage and Love from a husband was like. So all I can offer again is prayer for y'all that one day something goes snap and ya get this opportunity. Bless y'all


If God has a plan why would he change it because somebody asked him to?


----------



## ambush80

bullethead said:


> If God has a plan why would he change it because somebody asked him to?


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> If God has a plan why would he change it because somebody asked him to?



Has it not occurred to you that the asking is part of His plan also?

Do you not think these things through before you regurgitate your nonsense?

(Ha, been wanting to use that word "regurgitate"  for a while)


----------



## welderguy

ambush80 said:


> What you will find is that my proof is just as dumb as yours.  Let's do it.



Ok, let's do it.

I will pray something and you tell me what I asked for, so we will know you are authentic.Then you answer it.(if you can)............
.......................................................
.......................
Done.
Ok, go ahead.


----------



## ambush80

welderguy said:


> You can't even "hear" that prayer, much less answer it.





ambush80 said:


> I will prove I heard it the same way that you prove that God hears your prayers.





welderguy said:


> Ok, let's do it.
> 
> I will pray something and you tell me what I asked for, so we will know you are authentic.Then you answer it.(if you can)............
> .......................................................
> .......................
> Done.
> Ok, go ahead.




My answer will be "Yes, No, or not right now".  If I can't hear it it's because you're not doing it right.  You lack faith.


----------



## ambush80

C'mon Man!!!!  REALLY believe!!!!


----------



## atlashunter

hobbs27 said:


> I don't think you should accuse anyone of being a liar when you don't even understand the premise.
> 
> First.. Those that believe in Jesus would do the works Jesus had done... Secondly He said to His disciples..  I say to you... So Jesus is telling them,  of you that believe,  you also shall do the works I have done, and they did!
> 
> Also...  Whatever they (His disciples)  asked in His name,  He did for them.
> 
> You must consider audience relevance,  because  what we are reading here was a conversation between Christ and His disciples.. Not Christ to the whole world.  There was a time in which Christ went away to prepare a place.  In that time He sent a comforter, and He gave spiritual gifts, we read all about it in Acts,  but that time has expired and is no longer needed.



Here we go again with "what he meant to say". Let's stick with the actual words in black and white, not your alteration of them. It doesn't say, "you who believe in me". Nor does it say, "only those of you here who believe in me". It says "he who believes in me". According to Acts the performing of miracles wasn't restricted to just the 12 disciples. I suppose you follow the same method of interpretation of Mark 16 verses 15-18 since he was speaking to the apostles?


----------



## welderguy

ambush80 said:


> C'mon Man!!!!  REALLY believe!!!!



So which is it?  yes, no , or not right now?
It can't be all three.


----------



## atlashunter

welderguy said:


> Has it not occurred to you that the asking is part of His plan also?
> 
> Do you not think these things through before you regurgitate your nonsense?
> 
> (Ha, been wanting to use that word "regurgitate"  for a while)



Funny that his plan is statistically indistinguishable from what we would expect with no divine intervention at all.


----------



## atlashunter

welderguy said:


> So which is it?  yes, no , or not right now?
> It can't be all three.



Oh ye of little faith! You don't get to know the answer beforehand! Just wait and see what happens and then you will know the answer.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Has it not occurred to you that the asking is part of His plan also?
> 
> Do you not think these things through before you regurgitate your nonsense?
> 
> (Ha, been wanting to use that word "regurgitate"  for a while)


Still waiting on you...


----------



## welderguy

atlashunter said:


> Oh ye of little faith! You don't get to know the answer beforehand! Just wait and see what happens and then you will know the answer.



pssst...(I never prayed anything...I was foolin)

So there is no answer! HA!  Gotcha!

Phonies!!!!


----------



## atlashunter

welderguy said:


> pssst...(I never prayed anything...I was foolin)
> 
> So there is no answer! HA!  Gotcha!
> 
> Phonies!!!!



Pssst... it doesn't matter whether you pray or not. That's the whole point.


----------



## hobbs27

atlashunter said:


> Here we go again with "what he meant to say". Let's stick with the actual words in black and white, not your alteration of them. It doesn't say, "you who believe in me". Nor does it say, "only those of you here who believe in me". It says "he who believes in me". According to Acts the performing of miracles wasn't restricted to just the 12 disciples. I suppose you follow the same method of interpretation of Mark 16 verses 15-18 since he was speaking to the apostles?



Is it a conversation between Christ and His disciples?  

At anytime does He say this is for the whole world to know and extends into infinity?

Did He not limit it to ( you),  as in those He was speaking to? 

Sure others received the gift in Acts,  but the church was in its infancy and has since matured,  leaving those childish things behind. 


1Corinthians 13:11 
When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things.


----------



## atlashunter

hobbs27 said:


> Is it a conversation between Christ and His disciples?
> 
> At anytime does He say this is for the whole world to know and extends into infinity?
> 
> Did He not limit it to ( you),  as in those He was speaking to?
> 
> Sure others received the gift in Acts,  but the church was in its infancy and has since matured,  leaving those childish things behind.
> 
> 
> 1Corinthians 13:11
> When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things.



"I say unto you" followed by a declaration that has a scope applying to others is found throughout the gospels. I already gave you an example which you conveniently ignored. Acts and other books such as Timothy all indicate the scope of this was not limited to the twelve disciples.


----------



## ambush80

welderguy said:


> So which is it?  yes, no , or not right now?
> It can't be all three.





atlashunter said:


> Oh ye of little faith! You don't get to know the answer beforehand! Just wait and see what happens and then you will know the answer.





welderguy said:


> pssst...(I never prayed anything...I was foolin)
> 
> So there is no answer! HA!  Gotcha!
> 
> Phonies!!!!



Jokes on you.  You're not one of my elect.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> pssst...(I never prayed anything...I was foolin)
> 
> So there is no answer! HA!  Gotcha!
> 
> Phonies!!!!



Yes welder, we are the joke.
Now go wash up it is almost bedtime for you.


----------



## welderguy

ambush80 said:


> Jokes on you.  You're not one of my elect.



You know,...without realizing it, I believe you demonstrated,in just a few posts, the strict exclusiveness of faith, prayer, and election for the chosen people of God. Amazing!
...and even alluded to His vengeance and wrath toward the non-elect.

Good work!!

Who says God doesn't use the unbeliever for His glory?


----------



## atlashunter

bullethead said:


> Yes welder, we are the joke.
> Now go wash up it is almost bedtime for you.



It's amazing how selective they can be with the critical thinking.


----------



## atlashunter

welderguy said:


> You know,...without realizing it, I believe you demonstrated,in just a few posts, the strict exclusiveness of faith, prayer, and election for the chosen people of God. Amazing!
> ...and even alluded to His vengeance and wrath toward the non-elect.
> 
> Good work!!
> 
> Who says God doesn't use the unbeliever for His glory?



You're demonstrating someone installed a root kit on your brain.


----------



## hobbs27

atlashunter said:


> "I say unto you" followed by a declaration that has a scope applying to others is found throughout the gospels. I already gave you an example which you conveniently ignored. Acts and other books such as Timothy all indicate the scope of this was not limited to the twelve disciples.



The works that I do... 
 In Acts the Apostles did the works Jesus had done.. Folks were bringing their sick just so the shadow of Peter would fall on them..  Although charismatics think this still happens today,  it doesn't.  It's a done deal


----------



## atlashunter

hobbs27 said:


> The works that I do...
> In Acts the Apostles did the works Jesus had done.. Folks were bringing their sick just so the shadow of Peter would fall on them..  Although charismatics think this still happens today,  it doesn't.  It's a done deal



I agree it doesn't happen. There is no evidence it ever did. That's a separate matter from what the verse says. The application is to "he who believes". The NIV translates the verse whosoever believes.

Let's try another verse from the same book.

John 5:24
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Does that apply to anyone that hears and believes? Or only to those who heard and believed from among those he was speaking to?


----------



## atlashunter

I should also point out here that it is translated to he who so I guess that also restricts salvation to those he was speaking to that happened to have male genitalia.


----------



## hobbs27

atlashunter said:


> I agree it doesn't happen. There is no evidence it ever did. That's a separate matter from what the verse says. The application is to "he who believes". The NIV translates the verse whosoever believes.
> 
> Let's try another verse from the same book.
> 
> John 5:24
> 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
> 
> Does that apply to anyone that hears and believes? Or only to those who heard and believed from among those he was speaking to?



 Read the entire chapter.  It's not about us.  Jesus was leaving them.. Sending them a comforter so they would not be orphans  while he was gone.. 30-33....70ad,  yet He was going to return to them.. Not us,  not in our future. 

You should really learn to comprehend scripture if you're going to dismiss it.


----------



## hobbs27

atlashunter said:


> I should also point out here that it is translated to he who so I guess that also restricts salvation to those he was speaking to that happened to have male genitalia.


 
Show me in the original Greek text. 

http://biblehub.com/text/john/5-24.htm


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> Read the entire chapter.  It's not about us.  Jesus was leaving them.. Sending them a comforter so they would not be orphans  while he was gone.. 30-33....70ad,  yet He was going to return to them.. Not us,  not in our future.
> 
> You should really learn to comprehend scripture if you're going to dismiss it.


 "Read the entire chapter" "Read the Bible in it's entirety"  "It's not about us"
Now you are making some sense.


----------



## atlashunter

hobbs27 said:


> Read the entire chapter.  It's not about us.  Jesus was leaving them.. Sending them a comforter so they would not be orphans  while he was gone.. 30-33....70ad,  yet He was going to return to them.. Not us,  not in our future.
> 
> You should really learn to comprehend scripture if you're going to dismiss it.



So you say. The passage itself doesn't make any mention of his return let alone in 70 AD. It says what it says. In one translation he who believes. In another whosoever. You want it to only apply to the disciples. You need it to say that for the obvious reason you want to find a way out of the scripture being demonstrably false. But the language used doesn't mean only the disciples any more than 5:24 which you dodged means only the audience he was speaking to.


----------



## hobbs27

atlashunter said:


> So you say. The passage itself doesn't make any mention of his return let alone in 70 AD. It says what it says. In one translation he who believes. In another whosoever. You want it to only apply to the disciples. You need it to say that for the obvious reason you want to find a way out of the scripture being demonstrably false. But the language used doesn't mean only the disciples any more than 5:24 which you dodged means only the audience he was speaking to.



You're right,  it doesn't say 70 ad. It does say He was going to return to them.. 

John 14:28 28 You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.

Now can you explain how. I can say to you Atlas. ". I will be going to bed after this comment,  but I will return later to respond to you"

 Can this in any way shape or form mean Im actually speaking to your offspring thousands of years from now,  and not you ?


----------



## atlashunter

hobbs27 said:


> You're right,  it doesn't say 70 ad. It does say He was going to return to them..
> 
> John 14:28 28 You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.
> 
> Now can you explain how. I can say to you Atlas. ". I will be going to bed after this comment,  but I will return later to respond to you"
> 
> Can this in any way shape or form mean Im actually speaking to your offspring thousands of years from now,  and not you ?



That's not what it says. Don't draw some hypothetical analogy that says something different than what the scripture says. The Greek "ho" describing "the one", "he who", or "whosoever" is identical to the Greek used in John 5:24. So you tell me if you think John 5:24 doesn't apply to people living today.


----------



## hobbs27

atlashunter said:


> That's not what it says. Don't draw some hypothetical analogy that says something different than what the scripture says. The Greek "ho" describing "the one", "he who", or "whosoever" is identical to the Greek used in John 5:24. So you tell me if you think John 5:24 doesn't apply to people living today.



John 5:24 does not apply to us today.


----------



## atlashunter

hobbs27 said:


> John 5:24 does not apply to us today.



Thank you. And why does it not apply?


----------



## hobbs27

atlashunter said:


> Thank you. And why does it not apply?



This message was to the Jews , Jesus was ministering to about the coming judgment. (70ad), They were:  through faith in Him leaving the covenant of sin and death,  IE.  Old covenant,  and coming into the covenant of grace and eternal life. IE New covenant. 

We are not of the Old covenant,  therefore we don't pass from death unto life as they were doing.


----------



## atlashunter

So you're saying those living today will not face judgment? Or they will face judgment but cannot be saved? Do all people living today have eternal life regardless of belief? Or eternal life isn't attainable for anyone?


----------



## drippin' rock

j_seph said:


> I know of 3 people who prayed that they would not cry, tear up one went for 2 years after that and never cried about anything. The other a year and the other 10 months.
> They normally would cry about everytime they prayed, preached, or testified.
> Did they convince their-self to not cry over anything at all for that amount of time? Not IMO



I see why religion has a toe hold. This has to be one of the more ridiculous things I've read lately.


----------



## drippin' rock

hobbs27 said:


> I don't think you should accuse anyone of being a liar when you don't even understand the premise.
> 
> First.. Those that believe in Jesus would do the works Jesus had done... Secondly He said to His disciples..  I say to you... So Jesus is telling them,  of you that believe,  you also shall do the works I have done, and they did!
> 
> Also...  Whatever they (His disciples)  asked in His name,  He did for them.
> 
> You must consider audience relevance,  because  what we are reading here was a conversation between Christ and His disciples.. Not Christ to the whole world.  There was a time in which Christ went away to prepare a place.  In that time He sent a comforter, and He gave spiritual gifts, we read all about it in Acts,  but that time has expired and is no longer needed.



Ain't it funny that the Bible needs translating, even after it is translated to English?  And isn't it a hoot that everyone believes their twist is the most accurate?


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> This message was to the Jews , Jesus was ministering to about the coming judgment. (70ad), They were:  through faith in Him leaving the covenant of sin and death,  IE.  Old covenant,  and coming into the covenant of grace and eternal life. IE New covenant.
> 
> We are not of the Old covenant,  therefore we don't pass from death unto life as they were doing.


So who was the antichrist?
Where is all the world peace?


----------



## hobbs27

atlashunter said:


> So you're saying those living today will not face judgment? Or they will face judgment but cannot be saved? Do all people living today have eternal life regardless of belief? Or eternal life isn't attainable for anyone?



 There's no pending judgment. All people do not have eternal life,  it is attainable though. 

Revelation 22: 14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.


----------



## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> So who was the antichrist?
> Where is all the world peace?



Nero fits the description of the anti Christ. John said of the sign of the anti Christ that they knew they were in the last hour because many anti Christ were present then. 

1John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour


World peace?  Maybe you should point to the verse saying that and let's examine it.  The JWs I debate with love that topic.


----------



## atlashunter

hobbs27 said:


> There's no pending judgment. All people do not have eternal life,  it is attainable though.



You inserted pending in there which is not what I asked. Are people living today ever going to face judgment?

I assume you would also say not all people from Jesus generation had eternal life but according to John it was attainable for them through belief. How is eternal life attainable for people in this generation?


----------



## hobbs27

atlashunter said:


> You inserted pending in there which is not what I asked. Are people living today ever going to face judgment?
> 
> I assume you would also say not all people from Jesus generation had eternal life but according to John it was attainable for them through belief. How is eternal life attainable for people in this generation?




 I inserted pending,  because judgment can and is used differently by people. There's no judgment coming as God's wrath on mankind.  There's no judgment coming as man standing in front of God and being divided up as sheep or goats. 

If you consider a man taking of the water of life which is freely given to obtain eternal life a judgment.. Then I would accept that.  The verses I posted above in Revelation 22 is how man obtains eternal life.


----------



## atlashunter

hobbs27 said:


> I inserted pending,  because judgment can and is used differently by people. There's no judgment coming as God's wrath on mankind.  There's no judgment coming as man standing in front of God and being divided up as sheep or goats.
> 
> If you consider a man taking of the water of life which is freely given to obtain eternal life a judgment.. Then I would accept that.  The verses I posted above in Revelation 22 is how man obtains eternal life.



I'm asking about your understanding so would really prefer to have that direct in plain language rather than reference to another scripture that is left open to interpretation when we've already seen your interpretation of scripture can be rather unconventional. Based on the scripture you cited is it your view that a nonbeliever who follows "his commandments" (vague as to which commandments) will have eternal life?

You indicated before that there is no hot place of torment. So how does this work? People die and there is no judgment, they just cease to exist if they didn't acquire eternal life while those who did acquire eternal life go to heaven?


----------



## hobbs27

atlashunter said:


> I'm asking about your understanding so would really prefer to have that direct in plain language rather than reference to another scripture that is left open to interpretation when we've already seen your interpretation of scripture can be rather unconventional. Based on the scripture you cited is it your view that a nonbeliever who follows "his commandments" (vague as to which commandments) will have eternal life?
> 
> You indicated before that there is no hot place of torment. So how does this work? People die and there is no judgment, they just cease to exist if they didn't acquire eternal life while those who did acquire eternal life go to heaven?



I think most Christians experience something just a little differently . It's a personal experience and just what is needed to enter into a covenental relationship with God.  So I could give my experience,  but not base everyone else's on that.  I can say there was a drawing of spiritual nature,  and I can say,  I honestly believe I could have turned away from it,  but I didn't. Since that time,  spiritually I have received confirmation after confirmation of being in covenant with God. 

I don't believe scripture is explaining Adam as being the very first human on earth.  Adam was the first man brought into covenant with God,  he was the first to become a Son of God. He became a Son through adoption. 

In the day Adam sinned he died . In other words,  he lost son ship and became a servant.  All Adams offspring were servants of God through the entire Old covenant.  It took God's only begotten Son to fix Adams error.  At the Resurrection of the dead ones,  the Old Testament saints received eternal life and Son ship through the blood of Christ. 

The Old covenant servants in the time of Christ ministry were receiving sonship through faith.  And they were about (Melo)  to receive the promises to Abraham.  The Kingdom,  eternal life,  etc.  They were establishing the New Covenant and witnessing the vanishing of the Old.

Now it is established,  everything is done.  


Ephesians 3:20-21King James Version (KJV)

20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

John 3:16 answers your question on the eternal condition of non believers.  They perish.


----------



## atlashunter

I don't see answers to my questions so let's try again. Communication will be much better without symbolic language or drawn out explanations going back to Genesis. The questions are concise and straight forward. Would be nice if the answers were as well. Thanks.

Based on the scripture you cited is it your view that a nonbeliever who follows "his commandments" (vague as to which commandments) will have eternal life?

You indicated before that there is no hot place of torment. So how does this work? People die and there is no judgment, they just cease to exist if they didn't acquire eternal life while those who did acquire eternal life go to heaven?

You say those who don't get eternal life perish. The traditional Christian understanding is that means they go to the hot place. What does it mean to you? They cease to exist? Or something else?


----------



## hobbs27

Atlas. A non believer cannot follow His commandments. They have never began to. 
Non believers do not have eternal life. 

I agree and disagree on your statement about he11 being a traditional Christian understanding.  It is traditional if you go back to the fourth century teachings.  From the fourth century all the way to the beginning of the Bible it's not a traditional view. There's no scriptural basis for it,  there's no word for it in scripture... It doesn't exist in scripture. 

So either you are a child of God and have obtained eternal life in the spiritual realm,  or you're just a material being and will die and perish as God's natural order of this world dictates. 

In reality,  everyone gets what they think is coming to them.  Non believers get eternal death,  believers have eternal life. Unless of course,  someone thinks they get eternal life by other means than being in Christ.


----------



## ambush80

welderguy said:


> You know,...without realizing it, I believe you demonstrated,in just a few posts, the strict exclusiveness of faith, prayer, and election for the chosen people of God. Amazing!
> ...and even alluded to His vengeance and wrath toward the non-elect.
> 
> Good work!!
> 
> Who says God doesn't use the unbeliever for His glory?



Wow.  Your thinking is MESSED UP. 

I can't believe I've given you this gift and you've refused it.


----------



## atlashunter

So no judgment but some get death and some get eternal life but to get eternal life they must believe in Jesus and follow the commandments?


----------



## hobbs27

atlashunter said:


> So no judgment but some get death and some get eternal life but to get eternal life they must believe in Jesus and follow the commandments?



Yeah,  kind of.  You wanted a very generalized answer,  so there it is.


----------



## atlashunter

hobbs27 said:


> Yeah,  kind of.  You wanted a very generalized answer,  so there it is.



Fair enough. That sounds an awful lot like a judgment to me or at least a sorting out based on ones choices and behavior. Also sounds like you're saying eternal life is still available to believers today (perhaps with the caveat of following the commandments, odd that wouldn't also apply to his generation especially in light of Matthew)which would mean at least that portion of John 5:24 extended beyond those who happened to be in the audience Jesus was speaking to. It's interesting to me Jesus is speaking to his disciples and says he who believes but the application of what follows is reserved only for the disciples he is speaking to and not everyone who believes. Yet in another verse he speaks to some Jews and uses the same word for he who believes and what follows applies not only to those he was speaking to in that moment but others of that generation who weren't there as well as (at least in part) subsequent generations of believers. That seems like some serious mental gymnastics to me to take the scriptures not at face value but to try to shoehorn them into a particular theology. Appreciate your patience in answering my questions as I wanted to understand and not misconstrue your position.


----------



## hobbs27

atlashunter said:


> Fair enough. That sounds an awful lot like a judgment to me or at least a sorting out based on ones choices and behavior. Also sounds like you're saying eternal life is still available to believers today (perhaps with the caveat of following the commandments, odd that wouldn't also apply to his generation especially in light of Matthew)which would mean at least that portion of John 5:24 extended beyond those who happened to be in the audience Jesus was speaking to. It's interesting to me Jesus is speaking to his disciples and says he who believes but the application of what follows is reserved only for the disciples he is speaking to and not everyone who believes. Yet in another verse he speaks to some Jews and uses the same word for he who believes and what follows applies not only to those he was speaking to in that moment but others of that generation who weren't there as well as (at least in part) subsequent generations of believers. That seems like some serious mental gymnastics to me to take the scriptures not at face value but to try to shoehorn them into a particular theology. Appreciate your patience in answering my questions as I wanted to understand and not misconstrue your position.




 There was more going on in the time of Jesus' ministry . They were facing a judgment.  They were involved in an exodus.  So,  they were obtaining eternal life by grace through faith, but not just that.  They were also being saved from the coming judgment.  They were witnessing the vanishing of the Old covenant and the consummation of the new.


----------



## atlashunter

hobbs27 said:


> There was more going on in the time of Jesus' ministry . They were facing a judgment.  They were involved in an exodus.  So,  they were obtaining eternal life by grace through faith, but not just that.  They were also being saved from the coming judgment.  They were witnessing the vanishing of the Old covenant and the consummation of the new.



I understand. Thanks.


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> Nero fits the description of the anti Christ. John said of the sign of the anti Christ that they knew they were in the last hour because many anti Christ were present then.
> 
> 1John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour
> 
> 
> World peace?  Maybe you should point to the verse saying that and let's examine it.  The JWs I debate with love that topic.


Nero died in 68ad


----------



## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> Nero died in 68ad



Yep.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Yep.



2 Thess.2:8?


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> 2 Thess.2:8?



You believe the anti Christ and the man of lawlessness are two in the same?


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> 2 Thess.2:8?



Let's focus on two other verses first. 

2 Thessalonians 2:4-7King James Version (KJV)

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way


Verse 4 shows the man of lawlessness is a man that sits in the Temple.  High priest? 

Verse 7 shows he was at work in that present time. 

Comments?  Concerns?


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Let's focus on two other verses first.
> 
> 2 Thessalonians 2:4-7King James Version (KJV)
> 
> 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
> 
> 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
> 
> 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
> 
> 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way
> 
> 
> Verse 4 shows the man of lawlessness is a man that sits in the Temple.  High priest?
> 
> Verse 7 shows he was at work in that present time.
> 
> Comments?  Concerns?



Although not claiming any expertise on this, I do believe the man of lawlessness and Antichrist are the same. I don't necessarily believe it's speaking of an individual person but rather an evil worldview that started in the days of Christ and has progressed more and more evil.

My concern with your view is the falling away. Paul said even though the mystery of iniquity was already in the world, there would first be a great falling away before the end. Your time frame being so short, where do you see such a falling away in Paul's day?


----------



## bullethead

How can two people, two special people that each have been blessed with the touch of the holy spirit not agree 100%?
I am beginning to think that each of you have been inspiried by god about the same way these ancient writers were inspired....self given titles.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Although not claiming any expertise on this, I do believe the man of lawlessness and Antichrist are the same. I don't necessarily believe it's speaking of an individual person but rather an evil worldview that started in the days of Christ and has progressed more and more evil.
> 
> My concern with your view is the falling away. Paul said even though the mystery of iniquity was already in the world, there would first be a great falling away before the end. Your time frame being so short, where do you see such a falling away in Paul's day?




 Welder,  I can see similarities of the man of lawlessness and the anti Christ John speaks of,  but I don't know the two are the same either. 

Your concern of a falling away first before the man of lawlessness is revealed is an easy problem to solve. 

He was to sit in the Temple.  The Temple was destroyed in 70ad, this places the revealing pre 70 ad,  unless you hold to the dispensationalist view that a third temple will be built. 

Matthew 24 shows the same falling away prior to the temple destruction. 

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.


----------



## atlashunter

bullethead said:


> How can two people, two special people that each have been blessed with the touch of the holy spirit not agree 100%?
> I am beginning to think that each of you have been inspiried by god about the same way these ancient writers were inspired....self given titles.



That's a good point. For people who claim to be in direct communication with the divine they sure are a discordant bunch.


----------



## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> How can two people, two special people that each have been blessed with the touch of the holy spirit not agree 100%?
> I am beginning to think that each of you have been inspiried by god about the same way these ancient writers were inspired....self given titles.



I don't claim to have any gifts of the Spirit and have made that point clear,  in this thread.  The gifts have ceased.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Welder,  I can see similarities of the man of lawlessness and the anti Christ John speaks of,  but I don't know the two are the same either.
> 
> Your concern of a falling away first before the man of lawlessness is revealed is an easy problem to solve.
> 
> He was to sit in the Temple.  The Temple was destroyed in 70ad, this places the revealing pre 70 ad,  unless you hold to the dispensationalist view that a third temple will be built.
> 
> Matthew 24 shows the same falling away prior to the temple destruction.
> 
> 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
> 
> 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
> 
> 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
> 
> 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
> 
> 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
> 
> 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
> 
> 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another
> 
> 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
> 
> 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.



First, I believe the temple in Thess. that Paul speaks of is the body, not a physical temple of brick and mortar. It's of the spiritual nature.

Second, there was a falling away going on in Paul's day, but he alludes to a coming greater falling away which is future.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> First, I believe the temple in Thess. that Paul speaks of is the body, not a physical temple of brick and mortar. It's of the spiritual nature.
> 
> Second, there was a falling away going on in Paul's day, but he alludes to a coming greater falling away which is future.



So it's your view that the man of lawlessness is going to replace God and sit on His throne in the bodies of Christians?  I don't want to put words in your mouth,  so can you explain how that is going to work exactly?


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> So it's your view that the man of lawlessness is going to replace God and sit on His throne in the bodies of Christians?  I don't want to put words in your mouth,  so can you explain how that is going to work exactly?



There are many that buy into the prevalent world view systems. They are lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God. They have waxed cold. In effect, they have dethroned God in their hearts. Paul says if it were possible, even the very elect would be deceived. They may be for a season but it's not possible for them ultimately. (none can be plucked from His hand).
But "he that letteth will let". God will allow it for a while. But the end is not yet.
God is long-suffering , not willing that any should perish. That's any of His elect.


----------



## hobbs27

http://donkpreston.com/the-great-apostasy-4-a-comparison-of-matthew-24-and-2-thessalonians/


----------



## bullethead

So nothing is really literal or physical. It is all about metaphors, multiple interpretations, and embellishment.

This makes more sense to me than taking the bible AS the direct undisputed, mean what he says word of god.


----------



## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> So nothing is really literal or physical. It is all about metaphors, multiple interpretations, and embellishment.
> 
> This makes more sense to me than taking the bible AS the direct undisputed, mean what he says word of god.



It's not one or the other,  it's a combination.  Prophesy is usually very figurative. It's Hebraic apocalyptic language.  It's funny how some people demand a strict literal interpretation of the second coming and day of the Lord,  yet read and accept the obvious figurative languages of what we all agree are past days of the Lord. 

When Micah prophesied of the destruction in 586 bc he said God would come down and the mountains would melt under His feet.  There's many more figurative examples,  when compared to the destruction in 70ad , it's just as figurative.  It's foolish to deny the language.


----------



## atlashunter

That's a nice buffet to choose from. Something for everybody.


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> It's not one or the other,  it's a combination.  Prophesy is usually very figurative. It's Hebraic apocalyptic language.  It's funny how some people demand a strict literal interpretation of the second coming and day of the Lord,  yet read and accept the obvious figurative languages of what we all agree are past days of the Lord.
> 
> When Micah prophesied of the destruction in 586 bc he said God would come down and the mountains would melt under His feet.  There's many more figurative examples,  when compared to the destruction in 70ad , it's just as figurative.  It's foolish to deny the language.


Why would God have anyone prophesied anything?

On this day the Lord said this will happen,  this person named _____ is going to do it and it will be exactly at this hour and minute. Or any other combo of precise and concise detail thay a god would know.

Foolish would be to deny these writings are anything but a culture trying to glorify it's history with religion just like all other cultures did.


----------



## j_seph

Well my wife was diagnosed Stage 2 diastolic heart failure about 1 1/2 to 2 year ago She would walk to mailbox and back out of breathe. She had her test done today and they asked why was she there, she explained and they told her they could not see anything wrong with her heart. Wait, she was taking diuretics a year ago every other day for water retention. Yet today she can walk 5 to 10 miles, no diuretics and her heart looks normal? Yeah, that's my God with a big "G". Keep praying for y'all


----------



## 660griz

j_seph said:


> Well my wife was diagnosed Stage 2 diastolic heart failure about 1 1/2 to 2 year ago She would walk to mailbox and back out of breathe. She had her test done today and they asked why was she there, she explained and they told her they could not see anything wrong with her heart. Wait, she was taking diuretics a year ago every other day for water retention. Yet today she can walk 5 to 10 miles, no diuretics and her heart looks normal? Yeah, that's my God with a big "G". Keep praying for y'all



Awesome. If I were you and your wife, I wouldn't go to the doctor ever again. Waste of time and money.


----------



## bullethead

j_seph said:


> Well my wife was diagnosed Stage 2 diastolic heart failure about 1 1/2 to 2 year ago She would walk to mailbox and back out of breathe. She had her test done today and they asked why was she there, she explained and they told her they could not see anything wrong with her heart. Wait, she was taking diuretics a year ago every other day for water retention. Yet today she can walk 5 to 10 miles, no diuretics and her heart looks normal? Yeah, that's my God with a big "G". Keep praying for y'all


To say that I am happy for your wife's health improvement is an understatement.

What did your god specifically do that improved her health.?


----------



## j_seph

bullethead said:


> To say that I am happy for your wife's health improvement is an understatement.
> 
> What did your god specifically do that improved her health.?


For starters the Heart Failure no longer shows up.
She went from 4 to 5 pills per day, depending on the day to only 1 of those. Let's see, our mailbox that would have her out of breathe is 30 yards flat ground, and we can on any given day make a 2 mile walk at a fast pace without issues. Even her doctor asked her last visit what had she done to change her report then, compared to the prior visit because he could not explain it either. Why the meds she had to take to keep her BP in check for a year had all of a sudden caused it to be dangerously low and without them it was good.


----------



## bullethead

j_seph said:


> For starters the Heart Failure no longer shows up.
> She went from 4 to 5 pills per day, depending on the day to only 1 of those. Let's see, our mailbox that would have her out of breathe is 30 yards flat ground, and we can on any given day make a 2 mile walk at a fast pace without issues. Even her doctor asked her last visit what had she done to change her report then, compared to the prior visit because he could not explain it either. Why the meds she had to take to keep her BP in check for a year had all of a sudden caused it to be dangerously low and without them it was good.


I understand the changes.
What exactly did your god do that is evidence of a gods actions?


----------



## bullethead

Has her weight changed? Eating habits the same?
Smoker? Quit?
Exercise habits?


----------



## j_seph

bullethead said:


> I understand the changes.
> What exactly did your god do that is evidence of a gods actions?


We have prayed for this, we have walked closer with him since all this had started, he answered prayers we have asked.


----------



## j_seph

bullethead said:


> Has her weight changed? Eating habits the same?
> Smoker? Quit?
> Exercise habits?


Actually my wife ran 3 to 5 miles per day a year before all this started.
Never smoked
Dyostolic heart failure comes from one side of heart not relaxing to draw in enough blood in order to replenish what it just pumped through.
She actually gained weight in the last year, and does not exercise.
Eating habits have not changed.


----------



## bullethead

j_seph said:


> Actually my wife ran 3 to 5 miles per day a year before all this started.
> Never smoked
> Dyostolic heart failure comes from one side of heart not relaxing to draw in enough blood in order to replenish what it just pumped through.
> She actually gained weight in the last year, and does not exercise.
> Eating habits have not changed.


Let me see if I have this straight so far.
Your wife was able to run 3-5 niles per day prior.
Within a year she was unable to to walk to the mailbox without stopping to catch her breath.
She was diagnosed with Stage 2 Diastolic Heart Faliure.
She took 4 to 5 doses of medicine a day for a year.(do you know what they were?)
She still takes 1 a day (do you know what it is?)
From her last checkup to the one previously she is totally healed and has no heart disease?
She was fairly fit but has gained weight since not being able to run.
She never smoked. 
She eats as normally would. Would you consider that a healthy diet or somewhat moderate of a variety of everything or unhealthy but has not changed?

Is this correct?


----------



## atlashunter

660griz said:


> Awesome. If I were you and your wife, I wouldn't go to the doctor ever again. Waste of time and money.



That's what I'm thinking. This is proof. Couldn't possibly have a natural explanation.


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## atlashunter

I wonder why it is that god heals hearts but never restores missing limbs? God must hate amputees.


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## bullethead

Jseph, has she had the same cardiologist through the whole ordeal?


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## j_seph

bullethead said:


> Jseph, has she had the same cardiologist through the whole ordeal?



Yes she has from day 1 when she was carried to ER with a BP of 180 something over 150 something and was actually having trouble seeing due to BP so high


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