# Anti-gay church's right to protest at military funerals is upheld



## WaterBullDawg (Mar 2, 2011)

I am not sure how I missed this going on.  It is pretty interesting to say the least.  

I try my best not point fingers, but is this Church not going about their point in a horrible way???? 

Unless I have not been understanding correctly, this is not what my Bible has taught me.  How can a leader of a Church get away with this type of behavior? How can his flock be actually convinced this is a good idea??

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/03/02/scotus.westboro.church/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn


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## thedeacon (Mar 2, 2011)

Never, Ever underestimate the power of saten and his angels.


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## centerpin fan (Mar 2, 2011)

WaterBullDawg said:


> I try my best not point fingers, but is this Church not going about their point in a horrible way????



Yes, but calling it a church is being charitable.  It's just crazy Fred Phelps and his equally crazy family.  That's literally all that it is:  the extended Phelps family.  The media always refers to it as a church because they love to portray Christianity in the worst possible way.


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 2, 2011)

Just a bunch of no name, piece of trash, weak spineless garbage spewing dumpster rats, playing follow the leader, trying to make a name for themselves


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## Ronnie T (Mar 2, 2011)

Well well, we're all in agreement.

They are not a church.
They are not Christians. (And that's a dangerous accusation for any of us to make).


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## Six million dollar ham (Mar 2, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Well well, we're all in agreement.
> 
> They are not a church.
> They are not Christians. (And that's a dangerous accusation for any of us to make).



Sure they are.  Westboro Baptist Church.  To say otherwise is wishful thinking at best.

They're Christians.  They're not perfect.  Neither are you.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 2, 2011)

Christian means  Christ like.

Nope, they're not Christian.


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## Six million dollar ham (Mar 2, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Christian means  Christ like.
> 
> Nope, they're not Christian.



Keep in mind I don't bring that church up because I consider them low-hanging fruit.  But I don't agree with any of your post.  No matter how much you'd like to conveniently disavow them, they're Christians.  Sorry bro, that's just the way it is.


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## hayseed_theology (Mar 2, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> Yes, but calling it a church is being charitable.  It's just crazy Fred Phelps and his equally crazy family.  That's literally all that it is:  the extended Phelps family.  The media always refers to it as a church because they love to portray Christianity in the worst possible way.



x2  

It could turn out to be a very important decision in terms of preserving first amendment rights for religious organizations.  However, it grieves me that they would use their freedom in such a depraved way.


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## hayseed_theology (Mar 2, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> No matter how much you'd like to conveniently disavow them, they're Christians.  Sorry bro, that's just the way it is.



What defines a Christian?


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## Spotlite (Mar 3, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Christian means  Christ like.
> 
> Nope, they're not Christian.


Yeap


Six million dollar ham said:


> No matter how much you'd like to conveniently disavow them, they're Christians.  Sorry bro, that's just the way it is.


Based on what?? Self proclamation means nothing. I assume if they stood in a carport and claimed to be car...........you would believe them?


hayseed_theology said:


> What defines a Christian?



See Ronnies post above.


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## hayseed_theology (Mar 3, 2011)

Spotlite said:


> See Ronnies post above.



Yeah, I think Ronnie offered a good, short answer.  But, the reason I asked was to find out Ham's opinion of what defines a Christian.


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## Nastytater (Mar 3, 2011)

As far as judgeing them to be Christians,I'm leaving that up too God to do...As far as Judgeing what they are doing,It's wrong in no matter how you look at it. I also herd that at this ceremony, Some Bikers held a wide birth away from the family so they could morn in peace...But you never hear about that happening.


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## formula1 (Mar 3, 2011)

*Re:*

My heart goes out to families of soldiers who have had to endure this hatred.  My heart also is pained for the damage to the message of Christ that is being done by the deception of hatred and a willing media to God's true chosen who carry the true message of Christ. I pray for swift judgment of God on any who would taint His message with hate. I offer these words of Jesus for your thoughts:

Matthew 5
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

John 14:24
Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me.


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## gtparts (Mar 3, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Just a bunch of no name, piece of trash, weak spineless garbage spewing dumpster rats, playing follow the leader, trying to make a name for themselves



Don't sugarcoat it. Say what you think!!!


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## Ronnie T (Mar 3, 2011)

I think Christ would be disappointed with me if I claimed association with those jokesters.
I can call myself a mop, but that doesn't make me a mop.
I can call myself a Christian, but that doesn't make me a Christian.

Now, obviously, ham is an expert in knowing and pointing out what is the worst of Christianity so he surely wouldn't want to lose this one.  But ham is no different than the liberal journalist who feed of things such as this.

That group of people have no part of Jesus Christ living in them.
I don't care if they got an ID that says otherwise, or if they got it tattooed on their chest., they are not of God.

And "the" church needs to disfellowship them.


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## Randy (Mar 3, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> And "the" church needs to disfellowship them.



but they won't.  There are lots of churches that need disfellowshipping with but churches are very reluctant to do it.  They are too scared they will be called out as judging.


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## Keebs (Mar 3, 2011)

Nastytater said:


> As far as judging them to be Christians,I'm leaving that up too God to do...As far as Judging what they are doing,It's wrong in no matter how you look at it. I also heard that at this ceremony, Some Bikers held a wide birth away from the family so they could morn in peace...But you never hear about that happening.




Rumor had it that bunch was going to show up in Fitzgerald for a fallen soldier here, thankfully, they didn't show up!


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## formula1 (Mar 3, 2011)

*Re:*



Randy said:


> but they won't.  There are lots of churches that need disfellowshipping with but churches are very reluctant to do it.  They are too scared they will be called out as judging.



Perhaps a reminder of the words of Jesus are in order:

Matthew 13
24 He put another parable before them, saying,  "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, 25 but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. 26 So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. 27And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, 'Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?' 28 He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' So the servants said to him, 'Then do you want us to go and gather them?' 29 But he said, 'No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.'"


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## HD28 (Mar 3, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Keep in mind I don't bring that church up because I consider them low-hanging fruit.  But I don't agree with any of your post.  No matter how much you'd like to conveniently disavow them, they're Christians.  Sorry bro, that's just the way it is.



A tree shall be known by the fruit it bears.


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## Inthegarge (Mar 3, 2011)

Scripture also says a Spiritual man judges all things. By their action they are denying Christ. I believe Six is totally wrong...


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## Randy (Mar 3, 2011)

formula1 said:


> 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.'"


Yep that is another one that keeps the church from standing against false prophets.  I just think sometime the church needs to stand against them rather than let them appear to be ones of us and used as examples against us.  But maybe that is just my worldly heart?


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## Ronnie T (Mar 3, 2011)

There's a lot more that verse 30 to consider.

Individually, it's a tough matter for us to begin preparing the Lord's church for final acceptance.

But Paul, in 1 and 2nd Corinthians spoke of believers who should not be accepted.  And they needed to be disfellowshipped by the church until they might see the error of their way.

That's what needs to be done with this group of people that we're discussing here.

I simply cannot fellowship with them.
I must condemn them.
I will not assemble and worship with them and their garbage.
And I will smartly leave any place who would accept them.

I'm not mincing any words.  These people are enemies of Christ church.  They are not weeds in the drag net for me to live with as I await Christ's coming.


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## formula1 (Mar 3, 2011)

*Re:*

RonnieT and Randy:

I agree with you both. You can take that clear stand and draw that line in the sand. You should do just that! I took one of my own in Post #14.

But you can't destroy them though you would like to as that is left to the righteous judge. That is why I posted the whole passage.

I learned that lesson a long time ago. (Ronnie, you know) God in His time took care of it. That's all I'm saying!


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## Randy (Mar 3, 2011)

I know we can not destroy them but the church should come out and say they are not representative of God's teachings.


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## JFS (Mar 3, 2011)

So if someone were to "confess, repent, and testify to Jesus being Lord and Savior, the only begotten Son of God, crucified, dead, and risen" but their behavior falls short of your preferences or expectations, 

-are they saved? 

-are they Christians?


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## centerpin fan (Mar 3, 2011)

JFS said:


> So if someone were to "confess, repent, and testify to Jesus being Lord and Savior, the only begotten Son of God, crucified, dead, and risen" but their behavior falls short of your preferences or expectations,
> 
> -are they saved?
> 
> -are they Christians?



Matthew 7:21-23 

_“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’_


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## JFS (Mar 3, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> Matthew 7:21-23
> 
> _“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. _



So people are not saved by grace alone and one must act a certain way to get in heaven?


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## centerpin fan (Mar 3, 2011)

JFS said:


> So people are not saved by grace alone and one must act a certain way to get in heaven?



James 2:14-26

_What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?  Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food.  If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?  In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 

But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” 

 Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.  You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. 

You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]?  Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?  You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.  And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. 

In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?  As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead._


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## JFS (Mar 3, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> faith without deeds is dead.



How many deeds does it take?  If no one knows, does that mean all who think they are saved can't be certain?


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## Ronnie T (Mar 3, 2011)

JFS said:


> How many deeds does it take?  If no one knows, does that mean all who think they are saved can't be certain?



It takes more than deeds.
Deeds don't even come close.
It costs you everything.

Can we assume from the type questions you're asking that you don't actually identity yourself with Christianity?????


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## Ronnie T (Mar 3, 2011)

"The church, led by pastor Fred Phelps, believes God is punishing the United States for "the sin of homosexuality" through events including soldiers' deaths. Members have traveled the country shouting at grieving families at funerals and displaying such signs as "Thank God for dead soldiers," "God blew up the troops" and "AIDS cures Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----."
Westboro members had appeared outside the 2006 funeral for Lance Cpl. Matthew Snyder in Westminster, Maryland, outside Baltimore."

Can you imagine a group of Christians traveling across america, showing up at funerals, carrying signs that say:  "Thank God for dead soldiers"?
Is their leader insane, or all of them?


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## Six million dollar ham (Mar 3, 2011)

hayseed_theology said:


> What defines a Christian?



A follower of Christ.  I figured you would have known this.


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## Six million dollar ham (Mar 3, 2011)

Inthegarge said:


> Scripture also says a Spiritual man judges all things. By their action they are denying Christ. I believe Six is totally wrong...



I think Inthegarage is wrong.


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## JFS (Mar 3, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> "The church, led by pastor Fred Phelps, believes God is punishing the United States for "the sin of homosexuality" through events including soldiers' deaths.



So have any prophets, apostles or righteous people taken unpopular positions before?  And then there is Pat:



> VIRGINIA BEACH -- Pat Robertson said Orlando, Fla., should beware of hurricanes, since it and Disney World allowed Gay Days to be held there this past weekend.... Robertson also said the widespread practice of homosexuality "will bring about terrorist bombs, it'll bring earthquakes, tornadoes and possibly a meteor.''



But I'm glad to hear faith is not enough and people need good works too.  The world could use some more good works about now.


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## groundhawg (Mar 3, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Christian means  Christ like.
> 
> Nope, they're not Christian.



Amen Brother!  Once again you are correct.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 3, 2011)

It appears that the Phelps group probably aren't actually a church.

"Most of the members of Phelps' Westboro Baptist Church are members of his large family. Phelps has 13 children; 11 are attorneys. One son, Nate Phelps, is estranged from his father, and from organized religion. He is an atheist."

"He preached that we were the chosen ones but then he went out and treated people horribly," Nathan Phelps says.


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## groundhawg (Mar 3, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Keep in mind I don't bring that church up because I consider them low-hanging fruit.  But I don't agree with any of your post.  No matter how much you'd like to conveniently disavow them, they're Christians.  Sorry bro, that's just the way it is.



They can not be Christians and do the things they do.  You can call those folks what you what, all you want, as long as you want to but it will not chance the facts.  If they were saved and Christians they could not do the things they are doing.


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## centerpin fan (Mar 3, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Phelps has 13 children; 11 are attorneys.



... and as the article linked above stated, one of them argued the case before the Supreme Court.  I've seen her on TV several times.  She's very well-spoken -- for a loon.


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## Six million dollar ham (Mar 3, 2011)

groundhawg said:


> They can not be Christians and do the things they do.  You can call those folks what you what, all you want, as long as you want to but it will not chance the facts.  If they were saved and Christians they could not do the things they are doing.



If they've accepted Jesus into their hearts as their lord and personal savior, they're Christians.  Next issue please.


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## Six million dollar ham (Mar 3, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> It appears that the Phelps group probably aren't actually a church.
> 
> "Most of the members of Phelps' Westboro Baptist Church are members of his large family. Phelps has 13 children; 11 are attorneys. One son, Nate Phelps, is estranged from his father, and from organized religion. He is an atheist."
> 
> "He preached that we were the chosen ones but then he went out and treated people horribly," Nathan Phelps says.



They're a small church.  11 tithing lawyers = good salary!


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 3, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Don't sugarcoat it. Say what you think!!!


This was only after I erased my first three attempts to respond. I was afraid I might get arrested


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## Randy (Mar 3, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> If they've accepted Jesus into their hearts as their lord and personal savior, they're Christians.  Next issue please.



I think hanging around here is doing you some good!  It appears you are learning some stuff.  God works in wonderful ways.


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## groundhawg (Mar 3, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> If they've accepted Jesus into their hearts as their lord and personal savior, they're Christians.  Next issue please.



If they had done that (accepted Jesus into their hearts) than yes they would be Christians.  But to do, say, and act the way they are doing proves that they have never choosen the Lord as their savior.  They might say they have Jesus in their hearts but their actions have proven otherwise.


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## Six million dollar ham (Mar 3, 2011)

Randy said:


> I think hanging around here is doing you some good!  It appears you are learning some stuff.  God works in wonderful ways.



No, I learned all this back in grade school.  I don't believe in any of it.


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## huntmore (Mar 3, 2011)

I disfellowshipped a real word?


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## JFS (Mar 4, 2011)

ga nopro said:


> There was a time in this country when this kind of thing would NEVER be tolerated......the problem would simply be made to 'go away'.




That may be popular view at the Klan meeting, but I'll stick with the Constitution and due process.


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## pnome (Mar 4, 2011)

> How can his flock be actually convinced this is a good idea??



Bet these guys know the answer...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Applewhite
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_jones
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_manson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Jeffs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoko_Asahara


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## TTom (Mar 4, 2011)

Phelps and crew are a blight , a blemish on the face of the church they claim to be a part of. 

They don't confine their lunacy to being anti Gay either they are also known to put out very anti semetic messages, as well as some other very mean spirited and un christ like arguments and positions.

But we see the light version of their message put forth here from time to time. Put their signs at a different place with no attack on soldiers and I wonder how many would be calling for their shunning?

They also don't just protest at funerals, they have held their little rallies at schools right here in Georgia that have allowed a GLBT club to form on campus. They have protested at the alternative school in Atlanta where the children of gay parents go so they don't have to deal with the crap they get from other students for their parents or them being gay.

They protest many places, but until they protested at soldier's funerals I didn't see many Christians with the gumption to call them on it.


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## crackerdave (Mar 4, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Keep in mind I don't bring that church up because I consider them low-hanging fruit.  But I don't agree with any of your post.  No matter how much you'd like to conveniently disavow them, they're Christians.  Sorry bro, that's just the way it is.



Since when did God make you the official judge of who is and who ain't?

I don't know anything about these Westboro folks other than what the [biased] media chooses to show me. I DO NOT agree with one thing in particular: Their sign that says "God hates you." God does not hate people - He hates _sin._ 

The media is using these misguided folks to portray _all_ Christians in a bad way. Not that we need any help - many of us do a good enough job of that,right here on good ol' Woody's.


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## huntmore (Mar 4, 2011)

TTom said:


> Phelps and crew are a blight , a blemish on the face of the church they claim to be a part of.
> 
> They don't confine their lunacy to being anti Gay either they are also known to put out very anti semetic messages, as well as some other very mean spirited and un christ like arguments and positions.
> 
> ...



God is anti queer is he a lunatic?


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## Ronnie T (Mar 4, 2011)

If these people want to protest the governments support of homosexuals it's their right.  No Christian should be satisfied with a government supporting "gay rights".
But these people are letting Satan advise them in how to do it.
They aren't doing it in a way that Godly people would do it.


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## pnome (Mar 4, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> They aren't doing it in a way that Godly people would do it.



I may be singularly unqualified to make this statement, but...

They arn't doing it in a way that Jesus would do it.


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## Six million dollar ham (Mar 4, 2011)

TTom said:


> But we see the light version of their message put forth here from time to time. Put their signs at a different place with no attack on soldiers and I wonder how many would be calling for their shunning?
> 
> 
> 
> They protest many places, but until they protested at soldier's funerals I didn't see many Christians with the gumption to call them on it.



Bingo!


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## Six million dollar ham (Mar 4, 2011)

crackerdave said:


> Since when did God make you the official judge of who is and who ain't?



They say they are and Ronnie T says they ain't.  Your question again please?




crackerdave said:


> The media is using these misguided folks to portray _all_ Christians in a bad way. Not that we need any help - many of us do a good enough job of that,right here on good ol' Woody's.



You're right about that.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 5, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> They say they are and Ronnie T says they ain't.  Your question again please?
> 
> You're right about that.



You seem to be very interested in what my comments are?
Do you need my home phone number so we can talk?


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## Ronnie T (Mar 5, 2011)

You didn't answer Dave question either.


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## crackerdave (Mar 5, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> You didn't answer Dave question either.



I'm used to it,brother! He did,however,_agree_ with the second part of my post.

Some of the signs these folks carry are wrong,but when they say that America is incurring the wrath of God,I think there is a possibility they might be right. Look at all the times God's _own people_ [Israel] incurred that wrath in the Old Testament! Those O.T. prophets weren't real popular,either.


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## Six million dollar ham (Mar 5, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> You didn't answer Dave question either.



Oh, I didn't realize you were addressing me with this since you responded to the end of the thread (try hybrid view, it's great).  

I did address Dave's question by pointing out that it was fallacious.  Why would I want to answer that?


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## thedeacon (Mar 5, 2011)

These people claim to follow Jesus but I don't think they are making my savior smile.

Jesus was a very compassionant person, I see none of that in these people.

Jesus was a very humble person, I see none of that in these people.

I think that we have all forgotten what the very essance of Christianity is.

This so called prophet of God has gathered his family togather and started to make a lot of noise. A Zealot with missplaced zeal. He is acting against everything Jesus stood for as he walked on this earth.

Lets talk about Rights. Just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean it is the right thing to do.

I think homosexuality is wrong according to the bible but I will not be out with a sign telling people what I believe. If they can walk backwards crooked they already know.

I believe drunkeness is wrong, where are the signs?

I think adultry is wrong, where are the signs?

I also believe hate is wrong.

They have picked one cause and decided to make a name for themselves, they did but what kind of name is it.

They give me and my brothers a bad name, shame on them.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 5, 2011)

crackerdave said:


> I'm used to it,brother! He did,however,_agree_ with the second part of my post.
> 
> Some of the signs these folks carry are wrong,but when they say that America is incurring the wrath of God,I think there is a possibility they might be right. Look at all the times God's _own people_ [Israel] incurred that wrath in the Old Testament! Those O.T. prophets weren't real popular,either.



Oh, I don't think I'll put these people in a category with prophets.


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## thedeacon (Mar 6, 2011)

"PROPHETS?" Who do they think they am? Moses or something.


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## Big7 (Mar 18, 2011)

IDK but if I was Baptist.. I'd be pee'd off.

What a shame to put forth this crap and call yourself "Christian".

Another news flash: I got some junk that will go a LOT farther than
their safe zone..

God and God only could keep me from killing as many of them as I could if it were my family.

And no.. I wouldn't care if I got caught doing it!


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## gtparts (Mar 18, 2011)

Big7 said:


> IDK but if I was Baptist.. I'd be pee'd off.
> 
> What a shame to put forth this crap and call yourself "Christian".
> 
> ...




Trust me on this one...... there are lots of Christians, and especially Baptists, that take issue with how the Westboro crowd misrepresent Christ.

We still pray for the misguided and crazy folks that populate this world. It's part of whose we are.


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## Six million dollar ham (Mar 19, 2011)

Big7 said:


> Another news flash: I got some junk that will go a LOT farther than
> their safe zone..
> 
> God and God only could keep me from killing as many of them as I could if it were my family.
> ...



Might not be a bad idea to just delete that post altogether.


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## Big7 (Mar 19, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Might not be a bad idea to just delete that post altogether.




Why?

Do tell?


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