# Controversial Christian Topics



## Artfuldodger (Feb 1, 2012)

I'm relatively new here and was wondering what topics are considered taboo or at least have been discussed in the past and caused dis concern?  I don't want to be considered as one who is considered as "stirring the pot".  I have asked God to help me in my quest for the truth so the "Words from God's mouth" is where i'm getting my questions. I've looked at the beliefs of all the denominations of the Protestants , Catholics, Jehovah Witness, Mormons, & Seventh Day Adventist and formed my own decision on my guidance from God. I find it very strange that people are sheeple in the since that they believe in whatever their parents believe. This is also what makes people racist, Democrats, Methodists, Hippies, police haters, and meek & forgiving Christians.
I've realized topics on election/freewill and the divinity of the "Blessed Mother Queen of Heaven" are not to be discussed. Is it ok to discuss: the Trinity, Soul Sleep, Pre-tribulation Rapture, the True Sabbath, Tongues, Creation/evolution, or Female Ordination?


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 1, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I've realized topics on election/freewill and the divinity of the "Blessed Mother Queen of Heaven" are not to be discussed. Is it ok to discuss: the Trinity, Soul Sleep, Pre-tribulation Rapture, the True Sabbath, Tongues, Creation/evolution, or Female Ordination?



I think the only topic that is strictly _verboten_ is "Bible versions".  The other topics you list are OK, but some have been discussed quite a bit already.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 1, 2012)

I'll remember that. I was raised Southern Baptist. I was about 15 before I new there was any other version than the KJV. The first other Bible I new about was the New Testament version titled "The Good News" first published in 1966. It took a few years for it to reach Douglas. The KJV is so engrained in my psyche that I still have trouble reading other versions of the Bible.


----------



## mtnwoman (Feb 2, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'll remember that. I was raised Southern Baptist. I was about 15 before I new there was any other version than the KJV. The first other Bible I new about was the New Testament version titled "The Good News" first published in 1966. It took a few years for it to reach Douglas. The KJV is so engrained in my psyche that I still have trouble reading other versions of the Bible.



I know what you mean, same here. I've never debated or argued other versions, but I stick to KJV, personally for the same reasons you have. I'm too old to memorize verses in other versions....lol.


----------



## gtparts (Feb 2, 2012)

I think that as you make contributions, some of the long time Woody-ites will guide you around the cow patties and the landmines that are strewn about the landscape. 

Just read the "stickies" at the top of each forum and, remember, the mods are our friends as long as we are civil and keep it clean.


----------



## JB0704 (Feb 2, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm relatively new here and was wondering what topics are considered taboo or at least have been discussed in the past and caused dis concern? ?



Just what the rules clarify.  I have only been around about 8 months, so I still don't know everything that has been covered.  If you want to talk about it, bring it up.



Artfuldodger said:


> I've realized topics on election/freewill and the divinity of the "Blessed Mother Queen of Heaven" are not to be discussed. Is it ok to discuss: the Trinity, Soul Sleep, Pre-tribulation Rapture, the True Sabbath, Tongues, Creation/evolution, or Female Ordination?



You came across as a troll with the Mary thing.  I didn't know election and free will were now banned.  There have been some fantastic threads on that.

But the last topics you brought up are great things to consider.  There are some serious theologians on here who have tons of insight on pretty much every topic I have brought up.  I am just now getting into all the books I have gotten recomended since I joined.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 2, 2012)

I forgot about the stickies and meant to read them before this post. Thanks for the reminder. That should have been the first thing i read when i joined.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 2, 2012)

Well since I no longer believe in the Trinity i'm trying to figure out exactly who Jesus is. I know he is my saviour and don't take that away from him. I thought the Mary logic could help me figure out the Jesus uncreated logic problem i'm having. I didn't mean it to come across as a Protestant vs Catholic argument.


----------



## JB0704 (Feb 2, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Well since I no longer believe in the Trinity i'm trying to figure out exactly who Jesus is. I know he is my saviour and don't take that away from him. I thought the Mary logic could help me figure out the Jesus uncreated logic problem i'm having. I didn't mean it to come across as a Protestant vs Catholic argument.



It has come to a point where you see things which are not logical.  And you have to choose what you believe. It is an exercise in faith. I believe in God through logic, and Jesus through faith....if that makes any sense.  I believe the gospel and the resurection, but have no logical explanation for why a man can raise himself from the dead.  But if God is a logical conclusion, then Jesus is a possibility.  I think he demonstrated what any culture might consider "ideal morality" in contrast with his own heritage.  I can put my faith in that.

But, I think you are considering Jesus from the physical side, not the spiritual side of his existence.  The whole Mary being older / younger is only considering 33 years of existence.

If you don't believe in the trinity, then who / what was Jesus?  I am just curious......


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 2, 2012)

> Well since I no longer believe in the Trinity i'm trying to figure out exactly who Jesus is. I know he is my saviour...



Uh huh...

Don't believe in the Trinity, i.e. don't believe that God, the Father and the HS don't exist or as in they all exist, just not as one God?



> I thought the Mary logic could help me figure out the Jesus uncreated logic problem i'm having.



Funny how we have trouble coming up with a way to explain beliefs that aren't biblical, huh?




Man, I haven't been in here in a while.  I think I need to walk away slowly.  Y'all have fun.


----------



## JB0704 (Feb 2, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> Man, I haven't been in here in a while.  I think I need to walk away slowly.  Y'all have fun.



Don't do that.  It gets dull these days.  You and me need to start bickering about gay church workers, divorced elders or something.....


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 2, 2012)

You got that right buddy!  Start a thread for me.  I have a feeling if I hang out in this one too long, I'm gonna get in trouble!


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 2, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> You and me need to start bickering about gay church workers, divorced elders or something.....



How about a gay, divorced, Masonic, KJV-only, Arminian Unitarian thread?


----------



## JB0704 (Feb 2, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> How about a gay, divorced, Masonic, KJV-only, Arminian Unitarian thread?


----------



## JB0704 (Feb 2, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> You got that right buddy!  Start a thread for me.  I have a feeling if I hang out in this one too long, I'm gonna get in trouble!



Jokes aside, I think we usually kept things civil.   I only remember one thread getting deleted, and I did that myself.


----------



## dawg2 (Feb 2, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Jokes aside, I think we usually kept things civil.   I only remember one thread getting deleted, and I did that myself.


How about keep ALL of them civil.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 2, 2012)

I think Jesus was the son of God but not God. The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit. I think when we get to Heaven we will get to see God and Jesus as two seperate beings. There are too many verses in the Bible where Jesus is talking to God for him to be God. He said there are things that he didn't know, only the Father. I realize there are just as many verses that can be interpreted  as Jesus being God. That's why I pray for guidence.


----------



## JB0704 (Feb 2, 2012)

dawg2 said:


> How about keep ALL of them civil.



Honestly, the only time I've ever got mad was when "somebody" wouldn't give me a chili recipe just to be mean........


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 2, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think Jesus was the son of God but not God. The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit.



Think of them this way:  God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.


----------



## gordon 2 (Feb 2, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Just what the rules clarify.  I have only been around about 8 months, so I still don't know everything that has been covered.  If you want to talk about it, bring it up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I find it hard to judge someone a troll if they declare to have studied most major christians denominations. My understanding of this is such that such an individual has taken apon themselves one's own responsiblity regards spirituality, much in the same manner that we take on other responsibilities in life.

But yet, even a troll on a spiritual forum I am prepared to honor as my brother. If he or she don't see it yet, they will be. I have that much faith. Asking clumsy questions is often the self asking the wisdom of taking a first step to some intimacy or a faith ready at building apon itself.

I have been accused of being a troll a few times. God knows I'm a little off when it comes to sentence structures. A troll I have never aimed to be, but I did study all major religions once for a period of three yrs, on my own. Now this might not seem odd to some, but I did pick up and picture up an attitute or two for it and with my upside down sentences it might seem I'm trolling in someone's one ocean christian world. But my heart is ever, was ever, upright before men and my Lord and my faults and all ours are many.

Would you consider this a troll or a prayer? : Do we need to be born again in this world or do we wait for the graves to open up? Are Trolls better candidates to a life in Christ than Zombies waiting on their apocalypses?

Troll or prayer?


----------



## jmharris23 (Feb 2, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> You got that right buddy!  Start a thread for me.  I have a feeling if I hang out in this one too long, I'm gonna get in trouble!



This is why I rarely post anymore other than to moderate. There is so much foolishness being spouted in here in the name of "Christianity" that it makes me angry. 

Since I am often weak in the flesh and have a hard time " being angry and sinning not,"  I just stay out of these conversations for the most part. 

I'd hate to be the second moderator to get banned


----------



## JB0704 (Feb 2, 2012)

gordon 2 said:


> But yet, even a troll on a spiritual forum I am prepared to honor as my brother. If he or she don't see it yet, they will be. I have that much faith. Asking clumsy questions is often the self asking the wisdom of taking a first step to some intimacy or a faith ready at building apon itself.



Point taken.  I wasn't trying to be mean, just explaining a few of the responses in the Mary thread.  I did notice you gave an articulate answer in that thread before it was deleted.  That being said, I seems to me that you have always come across as thoughtful in your responses.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 2, 2012)

Thanks Gordon for your response. In answer to the prayer, I would say you have to be born again in this world meaning before you die.


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 2, 2012)

> Since I am often weak in the flesh and have a hard time " being angry and sinning not," I just stay out of these conversations for the most part.



exactly why I have stayed out of here for the most part for a good long while.


----------



## gordon 2 (Feb 2, 2012)

jmharris23 said:


> This is why I rarely post anymore other than to moderate. There is so much foolishness being spouted in here in the name of "Christianity" that it makes me angry.
> 
> Since I am often weak in the flesh and have a hard time " being angry and sinning not,"  I just stay out of these conversations for the most part.
> 
> I'd hate to be the second moderator to get banned



My! That's mighty fine preaching on not preaching. Just a few more yrs of being married to the same flesh and chances are your temper will change some and your anger will  come to pass. LOL


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 2, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm relatively new here



Are you?





Artfuldodger said:


> I think Jesus was the son of God but not God. The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit. I think when we get to Heaven we will get to see God and Jesus as two seperate beings. There are too many verses in the Bible where Jesus is talking to God for him to be God. He said there are things that he didn't know, only the Father. I realize there are just as many verses that can be interpreted  as Jesus being God. That's why I pray for guidence.



Hmm...John 1 comes to mind.  



jmharris23 said:


> I'd hate to be the second moderator to get banned



Second?  Who was the first?  I know we've had a few step down or be asked to no longer be mods, but they're still members.  Earl was never a mod...was he?

Oh...and Earl...if you read this...we miss ya   Hope that ticker of yours is still doing okay



Huntinfool said:


> exactly why I have stayed out of here for the most part for a good long while.



C'mon...Deer season is over....Turkey season isn't here yet.  Gotta pass the time somehow


----------



## stringmusic (Feb 2, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> Are you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



DEE??


----------



## stringmusic (Feb 2, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> C'mon...Deer season is over....Turkey season isn't here yet.  Gotta pass the time somehow



He told me he just bought a new squirrel call.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 2, 2012)

If you have seen me you have seen the Father is another verse that comes to mind.


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 2, 2012)

> C'mon...Deer season is over....Turkey season isn't here yet. Gotta pass the time somehow



I'm considering taking up knitting.  Wanna join me?


----------



## gordon 2 (Feb 2, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> I'm considering taking up knitting.  Wanna join me?



Very expensive hobby. And besides anger and those needles! Very unsafe. I'd rather reload ammo.

I just got me a new .308 and ordered a bore guide for it. I'll trade you reloading info for wool socks?

Size 10. I can exchange reloading info on .308, 30-06, 303 brit, 7.62x39, 375 win. , 375 H&H, 44mag. Can do it for copper jackets and cast both.

Or, you can post scripture and your ideas and I will read them.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Feb 2, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Well since I no longer believe in the Trinity i'm trying to figure out exactly who Jesus is. I know he is my saviour and don't take that away from him. I thought the Mary logic could help me figure out the Jesus uncreated logic problem i'm having. I didn't mean it to come across as a Protestant vs Catholic argument.


Hello Artfuldodger, I too do not believe in the trinity. I try to stay away from that topic here at Woodys, even though it is an area of great interest. I do however spend most of my time debating only that on another Apolgetics forumn. That forumn is, ..... agressive, best way I know how to put it. I'm glad that Woodys has not become like that. Anyway, I wish you the best in your search for truth. You may find an old thread of mine interesting, "What did Jesus claim". I would bump it up, but I prefer not to, since it attracts response of which I can't not respond back. I prefer to be nonconfrontational here. Although sometimes I am guilty of stirring up some feelings


----------



## hummerpoo (Feb 2, 2012)

jmharris23 said:


> There is so much foolishness being spouted in here in the name of "Christianity" that it makes me angry.



Rather than the foolishness itself, I find myself most upset by the way it is fed like a dumped puppy.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Feb 2, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> I'm considering taking up knitting.  Wanna join me?


Hold on, turkey season is not far away


----------



## JB0704 (Feb 2, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hold on, turkey season is not far away



Y'all can have it.  I'm ready for "bass season," and my yearly pilgrimages to SGI for some saltwater action.


----------



## JB0704 (Feb 2, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> Rather than the foolishness itself, I find myself most upset by the way it is fed like a dumped puppy.



Not sure what, or who, y'all think is foolishness, but I have learned a lot in here from everybody.  Even the ones I disagree with most.

I have found that I study my Bible a lot more than I typically would while we are going through these threads, checking what it says against what I and others are saying.


----------



## hummerpoo (Feb 2, 2012)

Example: an obviously misleading OP about the second most discredited passage in scripture gets 31 posts (and counting).


----------



## JB0704 (Feb 2, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> Example: an obviously misleading OP about the second most discredited passage in scripture gets 31 posts (and counting).



Oh, I get it.  I figure I might land on the "foolish" list from time to time.

What's the most discredited?


----------



## mtnwoman (Feb 3, 2012)

Hey, coming here keeps me out of trouble.....I'm serious.

And I love you guys....and I know y'all probably get tired of an old woman always ending y'alls threads. 

I bet not one person can guess how I landed on your turf anyway. If anyone can guess why, I'll send you a pendant and chain for your wifey for valentines.

I didn't know election was banned either....I'd honestly never even heard about election when I started that thread....and it greatly effected my psyche.


----------



## mtnwoman (Feb 3, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> I'm considering taking up knitting.  Wanna join me?



Absolutely not.....but I will teach you how to melt glass with a torch or in a kiln to make some wearable art. 

ixnay on the knittin'....somebody would be wearing the needles in their temples....


----------



## hummerpoo (Feb 3, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Oh, I get it.  I figure I might land on the "foolish" list from time to time.
> 
> What's the most discredited?



Sorry, I'm afraid answering you question would lead to more foolishness.

BTW, I still consider you a legalist.  But have seen some recent statements that give me hope that you are moving away from that.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 3, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> Example: an obviously misleading OP about the second most discredited passage in scripture gets 31 posts (and counting).



Were you refering to this post?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 3, 2012)

RJ Cruiser, do you think i might be an old poster reincarnated?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 3, 2012)

On the controversial topic of the Trinity I found the following link showing proof that Jesus is God. I couldn't find their affiliation though. Well thought out site proving Jesus is God.
http://www.digisys.net/users/ddalton/scriptures_show_jesus_is_god.htm
I found this one showing Jesus and his God not being the same. He had the following statement.
PLEASE NOTE: Restoration Light Bible Study Services is not affiliated with the “Jehovah’s Witnesses” organization, nor do we advocate the sectarian spirit of that organization, or any other organization. (the following sentince is mine)I have a feeling he might be of that faith.
http://godandson.reslight.net/


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 3, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> RJ Cruiser, do you think i might be an old poster reincarnated?



Yup.

It's kinda funny how people who leave come back.  It's happened a bunch before and will probably continue to join.


----------



## JB0704 (Feb 3, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> Yup.
> 
> It's kinda funny how people who leave come back.  It's happened a bunch before and will probably continue to join.



You believe in reincarnation 

kidding, of course.

What I think is funny is how many different folks I see reading along all the time never actually post.


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 3, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> What I think is funny is how many different folks I see reading along all the time never actually post.



Usually, it takes a good "alcohol on Sunday" thread to get the lurkers to post.  Freemasonry is another good "lurker attractant".


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 3, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> Yup.
> 
> It's kinda funny how people who leave come back.  It's happened a bunch before and will probably continue to join.



AD doesn't remind me of any past members, but you've been around longer than me.  I'm pretty confident about two others, though.


----------



## JB0704 (Feb 3, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> AD doesn't remind me of any past members, but you've been around longer than me.  I'm pretty confident about two others, though.



I knew y'all thought one of the long winded atheists used to be somebody else, but didn't know about any others.

I haven't been around long enough to recognize any of this.  I started reading along last January and started posting last summer.  It just looked like fun.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 3, 2012)

I've only been on here a little while and i've already been accused of a troll and an old member. Ya'll sure know how to make a guy feel welcome. My name is Wayne, I actually live in Martinez. I'm 56, enjoy fishing, backpacking, canoeing, camping, & new at knife making. I'm from Douglas, Georgia from the Sandridge. I was raised Baptist but ain't no longer.


----------



## JB0704 (Feb 3, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I've only been on here a little while and i've already been accused of a troll and an old member. Ya'll sure know how to make a guy feel welcome.



Hey Wayne, I'll still refer to you as AD.  Don't get upset, my first thread was trying to convince these folks that Jesus wouldn't have a problem with gay folks singing in the choir.......you can imagine how that went over. Enjoy the discussion, you bring up some good topics.


----------



## StriperAddict (Feb 3, 2012)

gtparts said:


> I think that as you make contributions, some of the long time Woody-ites will guide you around the cow patties and the landmines that are strewn about the landscape.


Classic! The latter part of your quote reminds me of the killer rabbit scene in Monty Python's 'Holy Grail' pic! 
Great sig line material!!



mtnwoman said:


> I bet not one person can guess how I landed on your turf anyway. If anyone can guess why, I'll send you a pendant and chain for your wifey for valentines.


Maybe a family member/friend you talked about faith with said, 
"hey, they talk this stuff at a place called Woody's, go there and leave me alone!"


----------



## Ronnie T (Feb 3, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I've only been on here a little while and i've already been accused of a troll and an old member. Ya'll sure know how to make a guy feel welcome. My name is Wayne, I actually live in Martinez. I'm 56, enjoy fishing, backpacking, canoeing, camping, & new at knife making. I'm from Douglas, Georgia from the Sandridge. I was raised Baptist but ain't no longer.



Knife making?  Very interesting hobby.
No longer baptist, what are you now if I might ask?
No particular reason.


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 3, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I've only been on here a little while and i've already been accused of a troll and an old member. Ya'll sure know how to make a guy feel welcome. My name is Wayne, I actually live in Martinez. I'm 56, enjoy fishing, backpacking, canoeing, camping, & new at knife making. I'm from Douglas, Georgia from the Sandridge. I was raised Baptist but ain't no longer.



You make it as if this is an AA meeting

Oh...and get used to the accusations.  They'll come from all directions.  No harm is usually meant...well...at least not too much.

We'll make it a guessing game as to who I think you are.  

You, or who I think you are had an old location of Evans (interesting....just down the road from Augusta...or Martinez...or wherever you're from ). 

I'll give out some more hints as we go along.  Gotta keep everyone in suspense and entertain as we're in the slump of nothingness to shoot.

BTW, I've been wrong a time or two before, but I've pegged at least 3 prior reincarnations....make it 6 if you count the same one coming back 4 times


----------



## StriperAddict (Feb 3, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> BTW, I've been wrong a time or two before


 
Not me. And I'm NEVER controversial    !!


----------



## dawg2 (Feb 3, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I've only been on here a little while and i've already been accused of a troll and an old member. Ya'll sure know how to make a guy feel welcome. My name is Wayne, I actually live in Martinez. I'm 56, enjoy fishing, backpacking, canoeing, camping, & new at knife making. I'm from Douglas, Georgia from the Sandridge. I was raised Baptist but ain't no longer.


If you live in Martinez, then why did you put Augusta?


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 3, 2012)

dawg2 said:


> If you live in Martinez, then why did you put Augusta?


----------



## gordon 2 (Feb 3, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> Not me. And I'm NEVER controversial    !!



I have never seen someone shoot a rifle in a pink shirt before. Thanks. I see and learn someting new on here every minute, every day.

I'm never controversial and don't find it strange that protestants can find controversy in other protestants. For me this is not controversy, but just the lay of the plantation.

It's like attending a New Life Charismatic meeting, when everyone is "falling" all around you and those that ain't are layin hands on you-- cause you ain't. I just take soft deep breaths and trust in the Lord, that's all.

Did you catch the 10X?

To statements like I don't believe in the trinity, I can only ask, "And how does that make you feel?"


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 3, 2012)

gordon 2 said:


> I have never seen someone shoot a rifle in a pink shirt before.



It's not pink...its salmon.


----------



## StriperAddict (Feb 3, 2012)

gordon 2 said:


> It's like attending a New Life Charismatic meeting, when everyone is "falling" all around you and those that ain't are layin hands on you-- cause you ain't. I just take soft deep breaths and trust in the Lord, that's all.


 
Spot on, same here.  Well, I may hold in a chuckle or two... 



gordon 2 said:


> I have never seen someone shoot a rifle in a pink shirt before. Thanks. I see and learn someting new on here every minute, every day.


When you're firing a 50, even wearin fuchia won't be a problem 



rjcruiser said:


> It's not pink...its salmon.


 
It really is!


----------



## gordon 2 (Feb 3, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> Spot on, same here.  Well, I may hold in a chuckle or two...
> 
> 
> When you're firing a 50, even wearin fuchia won't be a problem
> ...



 I imagined for a minute someone wearing a pink golf shirt with a Salmon screen on and lettering, reading: "This ain't a  pink shirt, it's a Salmon."

I got one of them 54 cals. but it is not scoped as takes too much pyrodex. I also see from your diction that the scope did not bite you, yet.

 I don't know why so many folk get all uptight when folk declare they rotate their tires counter clock wise on their bycicles.


----------



## StriperAddict (Feb 3, 2012)

gordon 2 said:


> I got one of them 54 cals. but it is not scoped as takes too much pyrodex. I also see from your diction that the scope did not bite you, yet.


 
I had excellent training from the folks at Ft. Benning that day.  The fellow you see next to me was part of the army group doing routines with various tanks, PT's and weapons.  The crowd that came stayed to use sniper rifles and other guns, the biggest was the 50 cal.  
The thing felt like it exploded in my hand, but the recoil wasn't that bad so long as your eye was over 3" from the scope. No "bites" Gordon! 

Sorry for the derail, I doubt guys and guns are ever a controversial Christian topic.  


Are they?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 3, 2012)

I can't find a denomination that believes the same things I do. I think the Sabbath is Saturday. I don't believe in the Trinity. I don't think your soul goes to Heaven/HE33 until Jesus comes to get us. I think when you go to Heaven you'll need a body. 
Evans, Georgia is real close to Martinez in Columbia County. I've never lived there. My last address was Grovetown. Usually when someone lives in a small city close to a bigger city they just say they are from the bigger city. That way people won't have to say "what's that near. People in Huffer, Chatterton, or West Green might would say they were from Douglas if they were out of town.
I lived in Albany for awhile too. I use to be a plumber but now i do HVAC work. I'm a Republican and my wife is a Democrat. She thinks like her idol Joel Osteen that there are many paths to Heaven. We don't talk religion or politics. I'm ok with gay folks and women preachers. I will defend your right to pee or burn on a flag but I won't give you federal/state money to do it and call it art. I was on a Submarine out of Charleston for six years.


----------



## Ronnie T (Feb 3, 2012)

You married a democrat?????


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Feb 3, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I can't find a denomination that believes the same things I do. I think the Sabbath is Saturday. I don't believe in the Trinity. I don't think your soul goes to Heaven/HE33 until Jesus comes to get us. I think when you go to Heaven you'll need a body.
> Evans, Georgia is real close to Martinez in Columbia County. I've never lived there. My last address was Grovetown. Usually when someone lives in a small city close to a bigger city they just say they are from the bigger city. That way people won't have to say "what's that near. People in Huffer, Chatterton, or West Green might would say they were from Douglas if they were out of town.
> I lived in Albany for awhile too. I use to be a plumber but now i do HVAC work. I'm a Republican and my wife is a Democrat. She thinks like her idol Joel Osteen that there are many paths to Heaven. We don't talk religion or politics. I'm ok with gay folks and women preachers. I will defend your right to pee or burn on a flag but I won't give you federal/state money to do it and call it art. I was on a Submarine out of Charleston for six years.


Nor can I find like minded fellowship. If I had never started reading my bible, everything would still be OK I now consider myself a form of unitarianism, not to be confused with a group that call themselves universal unitarian


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 3, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I can't find a denomination that believes the same things I do.



Start your own.  You wouldn't be the first, and you won't be the last.


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 3, 2012)

What Ronnie said.  These issues:



Artfuldodger said:


> I think the Sabbath is Saturday. I don't believe in the Trinity. I don't think your soul goes to Heaven/HE33 until Jesus comes to get us. I think when you go to Heaven you'll need a body.



... are relatively minor compared to marrying a Democrat.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 4, 2012)

I could join the Sword of Johsua church with Rev. Billy Ray Collins from the John Boy & Billy show. I like this other church but it's too far away.
http://www.letgodbetrue.com/introduction/faq.htm


----------



## gordon 2 (Feb 4, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I could join the Sword of Johsua church with Rev. Billy Ray Collins from the John Boy & Billy show. I like this other church but it's too far away.
> http://www.letgodbetrue.com/introduction/faq.htm



Sometimes it's not what we believe that makes us charming. It is what we do. So perhaps sucking up our multiple"against the grain biblical views" and doing something in a mission will wittle down to the essentials.

Chances are you just aiming to be a catholic and like most protestants, you don't know it yet. Or perhaps you need to make your peace with the Baptists?

Perhaps your mission could be as simple as taking out poor democrat and trinity believing families to the movies now and then? 

PS. Bet you like Newt ( convert to catholic) over Mittens? Hint! Hint! If catholic can make a saint out of Newt, guess what we'll do for you!  Even now as I type this, I can see your likeness in our stain glass for generations to come.

Or perhaps we can go back in the bible and read where Jesus calmed the sea. When the diciples and Jesus were crossing the sea of Gallilee. When Jesus slept as storm struck fear in the diciples. They did not know Him yet. They believed many things then, like today were are bold to do. But they did not know Him yet.


----------



## mtnwoman (Feb 4, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> Maybe a family member/friend you talked about faith with said,
> "hey, they talk this stuff at a place called Woody's, go there and leave me alone!"



No.....

I accidentally found my way here...well at least my flesh thinks that. Looking for 'someone/something else'. Perhaps I was sent here, so y'all would think...leave us alone....  I can hardly pass up a religious forum.


----------



## Ronnie T (Feb 4, 2012)

gordon 2 said:


> Sometimes it's not what we believe that makes us charming. It is what we do. So perhaps sucking up our multiple"against the grain biblical views" and doing something in a mission will wittle down to the essentials.
> 
> Chances are you just aiming to be a catholic and like most protestants, you don't know it yet.
> 
> ...




Gordy,

You're a riot, and I love you for it.


----------



## Ronnie T (Feb 4, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I can't find a denomination that believes the same things I do. I think the Sabbath is Saturday. I don't believe in the Trinity. I don't think your soul goes to Heaven/HE33 until Jesus comes to get us. I think when you go to Heaven you'll need a body.
> Evans, Georgia is real close to Martinez in Columbia County. I've never lived there. My last address was Grovetown. Usually when someone lives in a small city close to a bigger city they just say they are from the bigger city. That way people won't have to say "what's that near. People in Huffer, Chatterton, or West Green might would say they were from Douglas if they were out of town.
> I lived in Albany for awhile too. I use to be a plumber but now i do HVAC work. I'm a Republican and my wife is a Democrat. She thinks like her idol Joel Osteen that there are many paths to Heaven. We don't talk religion or politics. I'm ok with gay folks and women preachers. I will defend your right to pee or burn on a flag but I won't give you federal/state money to do it and call it art. I was on a Submarine out of Charleston for six years.



Like you, I don't believe Sunday is the new Sabbath.  Saturday was/is the Sabbath; Sunday is the Lord's day.

And when I consider God, and His Son, and His Spirit, I don't think of it to the full extent of many of the "Trinity" definers.  I just accept what the Bible says about that relationship (more than just a relationship).

I do believe that when a person who is "in" Christ dies they go on to be with the Lord.  I believe that began when Jesus ascended back into heaven and Peter opened the doors to the kingdom in Acts 2.

But you don't have to agree with everything I believe in order to have fellowship with me at my church home.  I hope that's true at every church.


----------



## gordon 2 (Feb 4, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> Like you, I don't believe Sunday is the new Sabbath.  Saturday was/is the Sabbath; Sunday is the Lord's day.
> 
> And when I consider God, and His Son, and His Spirit, I don't think of it to the full extent of many of the "Trinity" definers.  I just accept what the Bible says about that relationship (more than just a relationship).
> 
> ...



It is definitely true at my church. Most , if not all, are cracked pots in some form of arrested spiritual development. And I really don't know why, I'm very much at home there?


----------



## StriperAddict (Feb 4, 2012)

gordon 2 said:


> Most , if not all, are cracked pots in some form of arrested spiritual development.


 
I've never been arrested in my life!!!  



Gordon, what Ronnie said,

we love you man! 

But seriously, No truer words have ever been said...  and goes for me, too !


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 4, 2012)

Since i'm such a rebel, I'm going with the Mormon candidate. I think he'll have a better chance being more moderate. My political views are more aligned with Newt not even knowing his religious background. I would vote for a black lesbian atheist president if i thought she could do a better job.
I wold rather go to a church where Christian fanatics/fans get as excited as football fanatics/fans than a Baptist/Catholic church. I've been to Mass before, it is more exciting than a Baptist church service. If i went to a church where they shout & shine, it might would freak me out, but i could get use to it.


----------



## gordon 2 (Feb 4, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Since i'm such a rebel, I'm going with the Mormon candidate. I think he'll have a better chance being more moderate. My political views are more aligned with Newt not even knowing his religious background. I would vote for a black lesbian atheist president if i thought she could do a better job.
> I wold rather go to a church where Christian fanatics/fans get as excited as football fanatics/fans than a Baptist/Catholic church. I've been to Mass before, it is more exciting than a Baptist church service. If i went to a church where they shout & shine, it might would freak me out, but i could get use to it.



In Christ we are all rebels, I suppose. But all have a cause. What is yours, got one? Being against something is not a cause. Being for something is. So what are you for?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 4, 2012)

Living a meek humble life. Try to "walk the walk" more than "talk the talk". Forgive my trespassers more. Live by example. Keep my body/temple cleaner. Help people more than i have in the past and not just financially but personally. Physically helping people in trouble. Ask God to help me do all of the above more.


----------



## gordon 2 (Feb 4, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Living a meek humble life. Try to "walk the walk" more than "talk the talk". Forgive my trespassers more. Live by example. Keep my body/temple cleaner. Help people more than i have in the past and not just financially but personally. Physically helping people in trouble. Ask God to help me do all of the above more.



Awesome. Now walk this: Forgive the Baptist. Take from them all that is good, rope-a-dope the rest.

 If you what to discuss topics that are important to you, realize that hackles will be raised if they are considered way out there for the status quo. Yet, don't stop asking questions that are serious to you. Ask them in different ways, see what works best for you.

 I think I notice you are a little peeved with the Baptist, maybe I'm wrong.  You will not puff up your christian views by deflating other christian views. It don't work that way.

I admire that you are studying and you are open to learn. As christains what we have been and are today is not always what we will be tomorrow. What we are on this side of the river is not always what we will be on the otherside. In many ways we all have our own river to cross --some to cross one, others many.

Now many christians before us have done the crossings and have found that a good wind there is in the trinity for example. It is hard to dismiss old sailers who sailed their bearings on oceans and that they hit their marks within a foot or two...


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 4, 2012)

I never said i was peeved or upset with the Baptist. My whole family and most of my friends are Baptist. Most of Georgia is Baptist. My Dad is Baptist and goes to a different denomination church every Sunday. I have a cousin who joined a Church of God or similar after going to a Baptist church his whole life. I don't think either one of them are peeved. I  just don't think i would fit in any more since i don't believe in the Trinity. How could someone join a Pentecostal Church if they didn't think tongues was a sign of receiving the Holy Spirit? I'm sorry if i came off offending Baptist. Some of my best memories are with that church including the RA's and going to RA Camp on Blythe Island. My Dad was the song leader in our church and the  boys Sunday School teacher. I went 3 years without missing a Sunday. My family was in the church anytime the doors were open. We went to churches all over Georgia when we were camping and met wonderful people everywhere. I realize my views are different on a few key topics but from looking on the net i'm not the only one with these views.


----------



## barryl (Feb 17, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think Jesus was the son of God but not God. The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit. I think when we get to Heaven we will get to see God and Jesus as two seperate beings. There are too many verses in the Bible where Jesus is talking to God for him to be God. He said there are things that he didn't know, only the Father. I realize there are just as many verses that can be interpreted  as Jesus being God. That's why I pray for guidence.


Dodger, inquiring minds want to know. Will you please take the time to give me all the Ch. and verses of Scripture to explain your opinion ?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 17, 2012)

If Jesus was God

At the very outset of Jesus’ ministry, when he came up out of the baptismal water, God’s voice from heaven said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.” (Matthew 3:16, 17) Was God saying that he was his own son, that he approved himself, that he sent himself? No, God the Creator was saying that he, as the superior, was approving a lesser one, his Son Jesus, for the work ahead. Jesus indicated his Father’s superiority when he said: “Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor.” (Luke 4:18) Anointing is the giving of authority or a commission by a superior to someone who does not already have authority. Here God is plainly the superior, for he anointed Jesus, giving him authority that he did not previously have. Jesus made his Father’s superiority clear when the mother of two disciples asked that her sons sit one at the right and one at the left of Jesus when he came into his Kingdom. Jesus answered: “As for seats at my right hand and my left, these are not mine to grant; they belong to those to whom they have been allotted by my Father,” that is, God. (Matthew 20:23) Had Jesus been Almighty God, those positions would have been his to give. But Jesus could not give them, for they were God’s to give, and Jesus was not God.
Jesus’ own prayers are a powerful example of his inferior position. When Jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: “Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.” (Luke 22:42) To whom was he praying? To a part of himself? No, he was praying to someone entirely separate, his Father, God, whose will was superior and could be different from his own, the only One able to “remove this cup. ”Then, as he neared death, Jesus cried out: “My God, my God, why have you deserted me?” (Mark 15:34, JB) To whom was Jesus crying out? To himself or to part of himself? Surely, that cry, “My God,” was not from someone who considered himself to be God. And if Jesus were God, then by whom was he deserted? Himself? That would not make sense. Jesus also said: “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” (Luke 23:46) If Jesus were God, for what reason should he entrust his spirit to the Father?After Jesus died, he was in the tomb for parts of three days. The Bible says that Jesus died and was unconscious in the tomb. Who resurrected Jesus from the dead? If he was truly dead, he could not have resurrected himself. On the other hand, if he was not really dead, his pretended death would not have paid the ransom price for Adam’s sin. But he did pay that price in full by his genuine death. So it was “God [who] resurrected [Jesus] by loosing the pangs of death.” (Acts 2:24) 
Does Jesus’ ability to perform miracles, such as resurrecting people, indicate that he was God? Well, the apostles and the prophets Elijah and Elisha had that power too, but that did not make them more than men. God gave the power to perform miracles to the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles to show that He was backing them. But it did not make any of them part of a plural Godhead or trinity.

1 Timothy 2:5 
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." 


One scripture sometimes used by people who accept the trinity is John 14:7:
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.” Some Christians feel this proves God and Jesus were the same person. However, reading the verse in context demonstrates this is not at all what the Savior was saying.
In verse 10, Jesus says, “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” Here, Jesus Christ clearly says he isn’t speaking for Himself, but for God, and it’s God doing the works, not Him. This makes it very clear they are separate beings. Jesus promises to pray to God to ask God to send a comforter to His apostles when He’s gone, something that would not be necessary if they were the same person. But in verse 20, we learn exactly what Jesus means when He talks about being in the Father:
“At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.” If the previous verses had the meaning that “I am in my Father” meant they were the same person, then the next phrase, “And ye in me, and I in you” would mean the apostles were also the same person as Jesus, making it far larger than a trinity. Jesus uses similar phrasing often, instructing the apostles to be one with each other as He is one with His Father. What He meant, obviously, was to be completely unified in love, doctrine, and purpose.
The testimony of Stephen is even more clear about the separateness of Jesus and God: “But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.” (Acts 7:55-56)

• Jesus said, "The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him." (John 13:16) Jesus said on numerous occasions that, "the Father… hath sent me." (John 5:37,6:37) The Holy Ghost was also sent by the Father (John 14:26) and Jesus (John 16:7), thus making Jesus inferior to the Father and the Holy Ghost inferior to both the Father and Jesus.
• "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another comforter, that he may abide with you forever; even the spirit of truth." (John 14:16)
• Jesus prays to God. (John 17:1-3)
• Jesus has faith in God. (Hebrews 2:17,18, Hebrews 3:2)
• Jesus is a servant of God. (Acts 3:13)
• Jesus does not know things God knows. (Mark 13:32, Revelation 1:1)
• Jesus worships God. (John 4:22)
• Jesus has one who is God to him. (Revelation 3:12)
• Jesus is in subjection to God. (1 Corinthians 15:28)
• Jesus' head is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)
• Jesus has reverent submission, fear, of God. (Hebrews 5:7)
• Jesus is given lordship by God. (Acts 2:36)
• Jesus is exalted by God.(Acts 5:31)
• Jesus is made high priest by God. (Hebrews 5:10)
• Jesus is given authority by God. (Philippians 2:9)
• Jesus is given kingship by God. (Luke 1:32,33)
• Jesus is given judgment by God. (Acts 10:42)
• "God raised [Jesus] from the dead". (Acts 2:24, Romans 10:9, 1 Corinthians 15:15)
• Jesus is at the right hand of God. (Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69, Acts 2:33, Romans 8:34)
• Jesus is the one human mediator between the one God and man. (1 Timothy 2:5)
• God put everything, except Himself, under Jesus. (1 Corinthians 15:24-28)
• Jesus did not think being "equal with God" was graspable. (Philippians 2:6)
• "Around the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, saying "Eli Eli lama sabachthani?" which is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"" (Matthew 27:46)


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 17, 2012)

Here are some verses that support the Trinity:
Verses saying Jesus is God: 

Heb. 1:8 
 God the Father called the Son "God." 
Isa. 9:6 
 The "child" is called the "Mighty God." 
Mt. 1:23, 

Is. 7:14 
 Jesus is called Immanuel, which means "God with us." 
John. 1:1 
 Jesus (the "Word") is called "God." 
1 Tim. 3:16 
 Paul said Jesus was God "manifested in the flesh." 
Col. 2:8.9 
 Paul said Jesus was the "fullness of the Godhead bodily. 
John. 20:28 
 Thomas said to Jesus, "…my God." 
Titus 2:13 
 Paul called Jesus "the great God." 
Phil. 2:5,6 
 Paul said Jesus didn’t feel it was wrong to be considered "equal with God." 
John 5:18 
 The Jews wanted to kill Jesus because He was "making Himself equal with God." 
John 10:30 
 Jesus said, "I and the Father are one." 
Gen. 1:1;

Col. 1:16
 The Bible said God created all things and that Jesus created all things. 
Mic. 5:2 
 The messiah (Jesus) had always been in existence. 
Isa. 44:6; Rev. 1:2,8, 11,13 
 God claimed to be the "First and the Last." So did Jesus. God clearly states that He is the only savior. The Bible also says Jesus is our savior.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 17, 2012)

And yet some more verses that support the Oneness view of God
of the Apostolic faith.

The Oneness of the Godhead is the basic fundamental doctrine of  the Bible.     

Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is One Lord (Deuteronomy 6:4).

Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? Ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? Yea, there is no God: I know not any.. 

Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from thy womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things, that stretch forth the heavens alone, that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself (Isaiah 44:8 & 24)

I am the Lord and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me.

That they may know from the rising of the sun, and the west that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else...(Isaiah 45:5-6)

Ye are my witnesses saith the Lord, and my servant whom i have chosen, that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he, before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

I, even I am the Lord, and beside me there is no savior. (Isaiah 43:10-11)

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called wonderful, counselor, the mighty God, the everlasting father, the Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6)

Behold a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is God with us.
(Matthew 1:23)

In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.

And the word was made flesh and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father) full of grace and truth.
(John !:1 & 14)

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God. 
(John 17:3)

And Thomas answered and said unto him, "My Lord and my God." 
(John 20:28)

For there is one God, and mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. (1st Timothy 2:5)

I and my father are one. (John 10:30)

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

They understood not that he spake to them of the father. (John 8:24 & 27)

For there are three that bare record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one. (John 5:7)


----------



## hummerpoo (Feb 17, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think Jesus was the son of God but not God. The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit. I think when we get to Heaven we will get to see God and Jesus as two seperate beings. There are too many verses in the Bible where Jesus is talking to God for him to be God. He said there are things that he didn't know, only the Father. I realize there are just as many verses that can be interpreted  as Jesus being God. That's why I pray for guidence.



"see" in Heaven ... there's a new idea.


----------



## JB0704 (Feb 17, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> "see" in Heaven ... there's a new idea.



??

We will not see in heaven?


----------



## hummerpoo (Feb 17, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> ??
> 
> We will not see in heaven?



Sorry, me being crude again.

I was thinking that we would be as productive trying to determine the significance of perception of different wavelengths and intensity of electromagnetic energy in the after life as trying to bring the relationships within the Godhead to human understanding.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Feb 17, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> And yet some more verses that support the Oneness view of God
> of the Apostolic faith.
> 
> The Oneness of the Godhead is the basic fundamental doctrine of  the Bible.
> ...


Hey Artfuldodger, This post and the previous one, I know all these arguments, both sides, inside and out. If you ever care to discuss any of them. But I'll give you one example. 1John 5:7, that I highlighted. This is found only in the KJ. It is worse than irresponsible translating. It is corrupted. This was not in the original text. Every scholar admits this. Trinitarian too. You see back in the fight for orthodox, These guys wrote years worth of reading in order to refute or prove their position. If this had been original, it would have been used over and over as the smoking gun. But it did not surface until somewhere around 1500 or later. Then we find the dead sea scrolls and verify that the oldest and considered best manuscripts did not contain this reading. Rather than retype the true reading and what it was refering to, I will see if I can find it and paste it. Anyway, I have much to say concerning every verse you posted. But I will refrain unless you wish to discuss them, because this issue usually promotes hostile feelings from the winners of the word orthodox


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 17, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> "see" in Heaven ... there's a new idea.



When Jesus ascended into Heaven, did God poke his eyes out? We were made in God's image, will we not see God and Jesus sitting next to each other? Even if "seeing" is a new super-body way that we can't explain. I also don't think I'll go to Heaven without a body. That's another one of my unique beliefs.
Here is a verse that disputes that belief:
2 Corinthians 5:8

King James Version (KJV)

 8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 18, 2012)

I've been reading about one more belief related to the Trinity and the Holy Spirit.  That is the belief that we also hold divinity. This is called Divinization or Theosis. It is part of the Catholic and Orthodox religion. It is growing in the Protestant denominations although I don't know where. This belief is based on the teachings of Paul that say through the Spirit we are the sons of God. This is in Romans 8. Also St. Peter tells us to share the divine nature. Does this mean if Jesus had two natures we have two natures?


----------



## barryl (Feb 18, 2012)

" Artfuldodger ",   Hmmmmm I guess no explanation needed!!  
You apparently have access to the infallible and inerrant and preserved Word of God, KJV 1611, and it is obvious from your earlier posts, pro and con of the Trinity, that there are one or two things wrong with your “unique beliefs”.    1- you do not understand the law of nature and/or 2-you are as lost as a golf ball in high weeds.  

#1-God has a body-the Lord Jesus Christ (John 14:9).   God has a soul – God the Father (John 1:18).  God has a spirit – the Holy Spirit (John 14:26).  The trinity is a fundamental basic fact of the Bible.   Three in one.  
Genesis 1:26 – “And God Said, Let us make man in “our” image, after “our” likeness”.   Man has a body, soul and spirit.   Three in one.   
Gen 2:7 – And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground (body), and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (spirit); and man became a living soul (soul).  Again, Three in one.  

#2 –Acts 16:30 – “What must I do to be saved?”  - “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ”.  Romans 10: 9-13.
I would highly suggest you consider #2 before you concern yourself with anything else.   Why?  1st Cor 2:14 – “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him:  neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.    2nd Timothy 4: 2-4 – Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.  For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth and shall be turned unto fables.   
1st Timothy, 2:4 – ..Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of truth.

This is posted in the spirit of edification.   My prayer is that the Holy Spirit will bring the knowledge of the Truth to you.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 18, 2012)

I wouldn't exactly call my beliefs unique!
Why doesn't the Holy Spirit have a throne?
http://www.21stcr.org/multimedia-2012/1-articles/kz-why_doesn't_holy_spirit_have_throne.html

Jesus wasn't even a Trinitarian!
http://www.21stcr.org/multimedia/artitcles/ab-important_statistics.html

I understand your last sentence and thanks for your prayer.


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 18, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Does this mean if Jesus had two natures we have two natures?



We have one nature:  human.  Jesus had two:  human and Divine.  By being united with Christ, we can _participate_ in the Divine nature.

For a more thorough explanation, read _On the Incarnation _by St. Athanasius.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 18, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> We have one nature:  human.  Jesus had two:  human and Divine.  By being united with Christ, we can _participate_ in the Divine nature.
> 
> For a more thorough explanation, read _On the Incarnation _by St. Athanasius.



I personally don't believe in the Divination of man. The question I asked was about that belief. I could see the line of reasoning though. If we become a son of God and the Holy Spirit is in us.


----------



## StriperAddict (Feb 18, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> We have one nature:  human.  Jesus had two:  human and Divine.  By being united with Christ, we can _participate_ in the Divine nature.
> 
> For a more thorough explanation, read _On the Incarnation _by St. Athanasius.


If having human nature means we posses any part of our old Adamic nature, we would make God a liar.

We have Christ's nature from salvation; not by our participation/works but by His work alone.  His nature is holy, so are we by the Spirit that gave us the gift of regeneration/repentance.  We have trouble understanding what being fully clean on the inside means because our flesh (human-side) gets in the way. But our flesh is not our true nature or identity, in fact it is not a 'nature' at all. It is the part of us that is still subject to the pressure, or power of sin. (This is a whole subject that makes for a great study through the book of Hebrews and Romans.)

Consequently, we are never the sum of what we do, but we are, right now, fully a saint in Christ. If we are identified with Christ, we fully share in His holiness, righteousness, and life. 

Note the "new creation" is present tense...
*2 Corinthians 5:17*


 <sup class="versenum">17 </sup>Therefore, if anyone _is_ in Christ, _he is_ a new creation; old things have passed away(the old Adamic sinful nature is dead and eradicated); behold, all things have become new(the new nature in Christ takes up full residence).


----------



## StriperAddict (Feb 18, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I personally don't believe in the Divination of man. The question I asked was about that belief. I could see the line of reasoning though. If we become a son of God and the Holy Spirit is in us.


I wrote the same time as you, but I'll add...
If you belong to Christ by faith, you fully, (not a little bit) have His nature in your Spirit.
Our behavior will come around to that as our mind is renewed in the word by that same Holy Spirit within.
This isn't the dead religion of works/law and pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps,
this is Christ's free gift, not of works so we can never boast.

It is a great error in some Christian circles that we have to "work" to have the divine nature fully within us,
but in reality, it is already there for every believer.
And there is no self pride in that, when we realize it is ALL His work, none of our own, to freely have and share His holiness.

Ephesians 4:24
and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 18, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> ... we are, right now, fully a saint in Christ. If we are identified with Christ, we fully share in His holiness, righteousness, and life.



Agreed ... but we are still human beings.  We eat, drink, sleep, marry, go to the bathroom, and eventually die.


----------



## StriperAddict (Feb 18, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Agreed ... but we are still human beings.  We eat, drink, sleep, marry, go to the bathroom, and eventually die.


Agreed. Nothing about those things is in conflict with our Spirit man (the true "us"), is it?


----------



## Israel (Feb 18, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> Agreed. Nothing about those things is in conflict with our Spirit man (the true "us"), is it?


Amen.
That would kinda exclude Jesus from being a spiritual man, except maybe the marry part.


----------



## Israel (Feb 18, 2012)

Israel said:


> Amen.
> That would kinda exclude Jesus from being a spiritual man, except maybe the marry part.


OOps...kinda goofy to quote my own post...but almost immediately after I posted that I was reproved by the spirit.
Jesus came for a bride.


----------



## StriperAddict (Feb 18, 2012)

Israel said:


> Jesus came for a bride.



You've touched on this subject many times. 
My wife and I have a wonderful 'earthly' marriage, and we often consider and talk about the "Heavenly" one.  
Of course, our earthy one will never come close...  but it sure is neat to have a picture of that grace here now.

Maybe an open talk of Christ & His Bride is in order for a new thread. I'd love to hear your considerations and observations, brother!


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 18, 2012)

There has to be something that separates us form Jesus besides the Holy Spirit being a part of us. Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, we weren't.
Different topic but why did the Holy Spirit use to be called the Holy Ghost. I view the Holy Spirit as God's Spirit, a ghost is the spirit of a dead person.


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 18, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Different topic but why did the Holy Spirit use to be called the Holy Ghost.



That's just the King James English.


----------

