# The end of all things is near.



## Artfuldodger (Apr 22, 2014)

1 Peter 4:7
The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers.

Romans 13:11
Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed.

What "end" were the aposotles trying to convey? The end of the Jewish Church? Their end?


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## hobbs27 (Apr 22, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> 1 Peter 4:7
> The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers.
> 
> Romans 13:11
> ...



I would say it was the only end they knew of, the only end that was prophesied in Malachi, by John the Baptist , and Jesus Christ Himself. It was at hand back then...those words were not only written, they were spoken, and they were spoke to people of that day. The end came,and I know cause the bible tells me so!


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 22, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I would say it was the only end they knew of, the only end that was prophesied in Malachi, by John the Baptist , and Jesus Christ Himself. It was at hand back then...those words were not only written, they were spoken, and they were spoke to people of that day. The end came,and I know cause the bible tells me so!



What is the Biblical defintion of this "end" you speak of? One thing i've always been warned of growing up in the Church, besides he11, was this "end." I was given lots of warnings concerning the end. Some of these warnings were even scary.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 22, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> What is the Biblical defintion of this "end" you speak of? One thing i've always been warned of growing up in the Church, besides he11, was this "end." I was given lots of warnings concerning the end. Some of these warnings were even scary.



yeah me too. And all those scary stories are just a made up bunch of jibberish.

 The bible tells us of a time of an end, but not an end of time.
Eph 3:21 (KJV) 
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

 Who was the warnings of an end to, and why? It was to the lost sheep of Israel that they may escape the wrath of God that fell on Jerusalem in 70ad.


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## SemperFiDawg (Apr 23, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> yeah me too. And all those scary stories are just a made up bunch of jibberish.
> 
> The bible tells us of a time of an end, but not an end of time.
> Eph 3:21 (KJV)
> ...



If it was to the Jews the book of Revelation was written about 20 years too late.  In all seriousness what does a preterist do with Revelation?


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## hobbs27 (Apr 23, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> If it was to the Jews the book of Revelation was written about 20 years too late.  In all seriousness what does a preterist do with Revelation?



Love it for the great epistle it is. The late date doesn't hold up, and more and more people are realizing it was most likely written 65-68 ad.

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/revelation.html


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## SemperFiDawg (Apr 23, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Love it for the great epistle it is. The late date doesn't hold up, and more and more people are realizing it was most likely written 65-68 ad.
> 
> http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/revelation.html



Of course.  I wasn't sure, but there's really no other way it works unless you re-date Revelations.

You may be interested in this.

http://www.pfrs.org/preterism/pret01.html


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## hobbs27 (Apr 23, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Of course.  I wasn't sure, but there's really no other way it works unless you re-date Revelations.
> 
> You may be interested in this.
> 
> http://www.pfrs.org/preterism/pret01.html



Yes sir, there's a lot of debate back and forth on the issue of the dating. As of late most theologians even futurist are giving in to the early date. Kenneth Gentry did some work on proving the early date and since his work few that read it will dispute his findings.I have a few problems with the late dating other than what was posted in the link I provided. One , John was born in or very close to 6 ad. The late date means he would have been close to 90 years old-- not much sense banishing a 90 yr old man, especially in those days. Records show John passing away near that age in Ephesus.

 It is only in the church tradition and creed that preterism can be debated, it is the purest sola scriptura eschatological view known. Historical preterism / partial preterism has a long history in the church, longer than dispensationalism. I have been teetering between partial and full preterism for a while now. Partial preterism has protection in the church creed  and is accepted , but full preterism is more scriptural-- and this has been my struggle.

 What I do know without doubt is that dispensationalism is a cancer on the church and needs to be rooted out.


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## centerpin fan (Apr 23, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> ... dispensationalism is a cancer on the church and needs to be rooted out.




Where's barryl when you need him?


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## hobbs27 (Apr 23, 2014)

Just a little more on the early dating

_There are suggestive evidences within the book to date it in the mid- to late-60s of the first century. In fact, the evidence is persuasive enough that it convinced such notable scholars Moses Stuart, F. J. A. Hort, B. F. Westcott, and F. W. Farrar in the last century, and J. A. T. Robinson, R. A. Torrey, Albert A. Bell, and C. F. D. Moule in our own day.

Two leading indicators of the early date are: (1) The "temple" in the "holy city" is still standing as John writes, though it is being threatened with devastation (Rev. 11: 1-2). We know as a matter of historical fact that the Jewish temple was destroyed in A.D. 70, and has never been rebuilt. (2) The sixth "king" is presently ruling from the "seven mountains" and will do so until a king comes who will reign a "short time" (Rev. 17:9-10). The preterist takes this to be a clear enough allusion to Nero Caesar. According to the enumeration found in Josephus’ Antiquities (18:2:2,6, 10) and Suetonius’ Lives of the Twelve Caesars, Nero is Rome’s sixth emperor, following Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Gaius, and Claudius. The next reigning emperor, Galba, reigned but six months, the shortest reigning emperor until that time.
_

 Also, I often wonder how futurist get past the first verse of Revelation


Revelation 1 

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him,to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:


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## centerpin fan (Apr 23, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Just a little more on the early dating
> 
> _There are suggestive evidences within the book to date it in the mid- to late-60s of the first century. In fact, the evidence is persuasive enough that it convinced such notable scholars Moses Stuart, F. J. A. Hort, B. F. Westcott, and F. W. Farrar in the last century, and J. A. T. Robinson, R. A. Torrey, Albert A. Bell, and C. F. D. Moule in our own day.
> 
> ...




Where's barryl when you need him?


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 23, 2014)

This from biblehub;;    http://biblehub.com/text/romans/13-11.htm  It came up partial so here is the link

 Romans 13:11 â–º
Text Analysis
Strong's	Transliteration	Greek	English	Morphology
2532 [e]	Kai	ÎšÎ±á½¶	And	Conj
3778 [e]	touto	Ï„Î¿á¿¦Ï„Î¿	this,	DPro-ANS
1492 [e]	eidotes	Îµá¼°Î´ÏŒÏ„ÎµÏ‚	knowing	V-RPA-NMP
3588 [e]	ton	Ï„á½¸Î½	the	Art-AMS
2540 [e]	kairon	ÎºÎ±Î¹Ï�ÏŒÎ½,	time,	N-AMS
3754 [e]	hoti	á½…Ï„Î¹	that	Conj
5610 [e]	hÅ�ra	á½¥Ï�Î±	[the] hour	N-NFS
2235 [e]	Ä“dÄ“	á¼¤Î´Î·	already	Adv
4771 [e]	hymas	á½‘Î¼á¾¶Ï‚	for you	PPro-A2P
1537 [e]	ex	á¼�Î¾	out of	Prep
5258 [e]	hypnou	á½•Ï€Î½Î¿Ï…	sleep	N-GMS
1453 [e]	egerthÄ“nai	á¼�Î³ÎµÏ�Î¸á¿†Î½Î±Î¹·	to awaken;	V-ANP
3568 [e]	nyn	Î½á¿¦Î½	now	Adv
1063 [e]	gar	Î³á½°Ï�	indeed	Conj
1452 [e]	engyteron	á¼�Î³Î³Ï�Ï„ÎµÏ�Î¿Î½	nearer	Adv
1473 [e]	hÄ“mÅ�n	á¼¡Î¼á¿¶Î½	[is] of us	PPro-G1P
3588 [e]	hÄ“	á¼¡	the	Art-NFS
4991 [e]	sÅ�tÄ“ria	ÏƒÏ‰Ï„Î·Ï�Î¯Î±	salvation,	N-NFS
2228 [e]	Ä“	á¼¢	than	Conj
3753 [e]	hote	á½…Ï„Îµ	when first	Adv
4100 [e]	episteusamen	á¼�Ï€Î¹ÏƒÏ„ÎµÏ�ÏƒÎ±Î¼ÎµÎ½.	we believed.	V-AIA-1P
Greek Texts


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## hobbs27 (Apr 23, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> This from biblehub;;    http://biblehub.com/text/romans/13-11.htm  It came up partial so here is the link
> 
> Romans 13:11 â–º
> Text Analysis
> ...



Im starting to trust youngs literal translation more and more, what do you think of it?

Young's Literal Translation
 And this, knowing the time, that for us, the hour already is to be aroused out of sleep, for now nearer is our salvation than when we did believe;


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## barryl (Apr 24, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> Where's barryl when you need him?


Oh I'm around, but I gotta go north for a few days(death in the family) When I get back I'll
see what God's word can do. Hey Hobbs, ever hear of "Domitian"? See ya'll in about a week or so.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 24, 2014)

barryl said:


> Hey Hobbs, ever hear of "Domitian"? See ya'll in about a week or so.



Yes...Sorry for your loss and safe travels friend.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 30, 2014)

I just read this from Charles Meek and thought I would share since there's been so many questions about what is preterism. Btw, I disagree about Jesus being lower in rank.

_WHAT IS EVANGELICAL PRETERISM?

 By Charles Meek

 Evangelical Preterists hold to the basic First Things doctrines of the Christian faith, which can be summarized as follows:

 1. The Nature of God: God is a Trinity—one God manifested in three, eternally co-existent “persons”—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are of the same nature and essence as God the Father (consistent with the Nicene Creed), though lower in role and rank.

 2. The Nature of Man: All men are sinful and fall short of the glory of God.

 3. How Sinful Man is Reconciled to a Holy God: the gospel. We are saved by God’s grace through a living, penitent, trusting faith in Jesus Christ alone—because of Christ’s perfect earthly life, his substitutionary death to pay the penalty for our sin, his resurrection to provide the hope for our own eternal life, and his Parousia to seal our salvation in covenantal completion of all that was promised in the Old and New Testaments.

 4. The Bible: The Bible is inspired by God, that is—it is God’s Word from Genesis to Revelation. Accordingly, we submit to Scripture when it declares in over 100 passages of the New Testament that the so-called "last days" were in the 1st century, culminating with the end of the Old Covenant Age in AD 70. At that time Jerusalem and the temple were decimated, the important genealogical records were destroyed, and the ancient Jewish system of sacrifices for sin ceased forever.

 5. The Doctrine of Heaven: Heaven is where believers spend eternity after life on earth, consistent with Jesus’ numerous promises of eternal life. Christians have always understood heaven to be the “place” where believers will abide with God in a status better than we have here on earth.

 6. Our obligation: In response to God’s grace, we humbly and honestly seek to obey Him as best we understand his will. In the very broadest of terms, we are to love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength—and to love our neighbor (even our enemies). Our compassion demands that we work to bring as many people into a saving relationship with Christ.

 7. We specifically reject aberrant doctrines of millennialism (especially dispensationalism, which we think is another gospel), fideism, nominalism, antinomianism, liberalism, legalism, and universalism.

 Thus, while we believe that all eschatological promises were fulfilled in AD 70—including the Parousia, the great judgment, and the general resurrection—we believe that the workings of God continue past AD 70. Thus, the SOTERIOLOGICAL PROMISES of the Bible continue into the world without end (Ephesians 3:21). While we recognize that theological errors have been present in the ancient faith, we believe that it is important to remain connected into the lineage of classical Christianity to the extent possible. Christianity is an historical faith, and we stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before us.

 So what did happen in the first century? The Bible is clear that Christ’s death on the cross paid the penalty for our sins (Romans 8:1-4; 1 Corinthians 15:3; 2 Corinthians 5:17-21; Hebrews 9:15-26, etc.). And his resurrection provided our hope for eternal life (1 Corinthians 15:1-11, etc.). Nevertheless, the Bible teaches us that at the Parousia, Christ’s work of redemption and salvation was completed (Luke 21:28; Romans 13:11-12; Hebrews 1:14 note mello; Hebrews 9:26-28; 1 Peter 1:3-9; Revelation 12:10; etc.). Effectively, this sealed the salvation of all believers into the future.

 CONCLUSION: AD 70 enhances our understanding of classical Christianity, it does not detract from it.

 For further information, see my various websites: the Facebook site Evangelical Preterism, the website FaithFacts.org and the Facebook site by the same name. This article and any future updates to this article, as well as other articles by this author may be found at ProphecyQuestions.Wordpress.com. The reader is invited to “like” my sites and to get a copy of my book CHRISTIAN HOPE THROUGH FULFILLED PROPHECY.
_


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## Artfuldodger (May 1, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I just read this from Charles Meek and thought I would share since there's been so many questions about what is preterism. Btw, I disagree about Jesus being lower in rank.
> [/I]



Thanks for sharing your beliefs. Pertaining to Jesus, didn't he himself have a God?


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## hobbs27 (May 1, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Thanks for sharing your beliefs. Pertaining to Jesus, didn't he himself have a God?



Art, I believe people get confused because they are only thinking of Jesus the man that was born of a virgin and died on the cross.

Jesus was, is, and always will be. He is the Alpha and the Omega. He appeared in the OT writings of the bible before He was born of a virgin , and He appeared many times since His ascension. 

Maybe I'm wrong, but if He has all authority in heaven and earth....what else is there?


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## Artfuldodger (May 1, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Art, I believe people get confused because they are only thinking of Jesus the man that was born of a virgin and died on the cross.
> 
> Jesus was, is, and always will be. He is the Alpha and the Omega. He appeared in the OT writings of the bible before He was born of a virgin , and He appeared many times since His ascension.
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong, but if He has all authority in heaven and earth....what else is there?



Jesus only had a God when he was a man? I was thinking Jesus' God gave him authority. If he was God, no one would need to give him authority.


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## hobbs27 (May 1, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Jesus only had a God when he was a man? I was thinking Jesus' God gave him authority. If he was God, no one would need to give him authority.



I've searched the scriptures, and asked for guidance by the spirit on this issue. I find the scripture supports the trinity, and spirit comforts me in this; so Im content with it.

 It was the Holy Spirit that moved on Mary: And Jesus is the Son of God


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## Artfuldodger (May 1, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I've searched the scriptures, and asked for guidance by the spirit on this issue. I find the scripture supports the trinity, and spirit comforts me in this; so Im content with it.
> 
> It was the Holy Spirit that moved on Mary: And Jesus is the Son of God



That's all one can do. I know you well enough to not be influenced by just man. I commend you on your studies and path to the Light. I wish every Christian put as much thought into reading the Bible for themselves as you do.


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## barryl (May 6, 2014)

Man ya'll have been at it!  I'll start with post #10 about the 1st verse of Rev. John was taken forward into the future, Verse 1"he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John" You can't understand Chapters 1-4 of the Book of Rev. without getting verse 10 and verse 19. No need for greek or hebrew, just English. There is a "thread" a while back titled "Is John still alive", some info to help. The spiritualization or denial of over 7 to 800 verses of scripture is all it takes to become a  preterist or try to take the promises given to Israel to apply to yourself. I've heard it said, "the book of Rev. is 1 of the easiest to understand but hardest to believe."


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## hobbs27 (May 6, 2014)

barryl said:


> Man ya'll have been at it!  I'll start with post #10 about the 1st verse of Rev. John was taken forward into the future,  Verse 1"he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John" You can't understand Chapters 1-4 of the Book of Rev. without getting verse 10 and verse 19.



1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


Keeping Revelation 22:18-19 in mind. Show me where Revelation 1:1 says that John was taken forward into the furture.


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## M80 (May 6, 2014)

He wasn't taken in the future but The Lord let him see things that would take place in the future.


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## hobbs27 (May 6, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> He wasn't taken in the future but The Lord let him see things that would take place in the future.



Would you agree with the first verse that the things he was seeing were things that were to shortly come to pass?


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## Artfuldodger (May 6, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Would you agree with the first verse that the things he was seeing were things that were to shortly come to pass?



"must soon take place"

"which must shortly come to pass"

"given to soon occur"

Preterist or not, how can one deny what Rev. 1:1 is saying? I'm not a Preterist but the logic in how they view the scripture makes a lot of sense.  It has helped me understand the Bible better than I ever have.


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## M80 (May 6, 2014)

Hobbs your going to have to give scripture for all this stuff your believing in. I'm a very simple person and all this stuff you are talking about I've never heard off. What do you do with satan bound for a thousand years. I pm'd once and asked if I was reading you right you didn't believe in the rapture and 1000 year reign and all. So give me scripture for all your beliefs. I'm not being rude, I just want to see it.


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## Artfuldodger (May 7, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> Hobbs your going to have to give scripture for all this stuff your believing in. I'm a very simple person and all this stuff you are talking about I've never heard off. What do you do with satan bound for a thousand years. I pm'd once and asked if I was reading you right you didn't believe in the rapture and 1000 year reign and all. So give me scripture for all your beliefs. I'm not being rude, I just want to see it.



Sounds like a good discussion for a new topic!


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## hobbs27 (May 7, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> Hobbs your going to have to give scripture for all this stuff your believing in. I'm a very simple person and all this stuff you are talking about I've never heard off. What do you do with satan bound for a thousand years. I pm'd once and asked if I was reading you right you didn't believe in the rapture and 1000 year reign and all. So give me scripture for all your beliefs. I'm not being rude, I just want to see it.



The scripture I will give you is the entire bible. I believe every word of it. The word rapture is not in it, and the idea of a rapture Is just some men's ideas on dealing with 1 Thessalonians 4:17. I interpret it differently now that I have actually studied it, instead of taking people's ideas of it.


The 1000 year reign is either now or has passed. No way is it in our future. Christ is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, not will be-- He is!


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## barryl (May 7, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> He wasn't taken in the future but The Lord let him see things that would take place in the future.


 verse 10- John was in the Spirit, a miraculous movement of a body forward in time.


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## barryl (May 7, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> Where's barryl when you need him?


Dispensationalism is a Cancer?  Young's concordance definition- Law or arrangement of a House. A dispensation is never a period of time in the Bible. A dispensation in the Scriptures means "dispensing something" Now go on and finish that popcorn


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## M80 (May 7, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> The scripture I will give you is the entire bible. I believe every word of it. The word rapture is not in it, and the idea of a rapture Is just some men's ideas on dealing with 1 Thessalonians 4:17. I interpret it differently now that I have actually studied it, instead of taking people's ideas of it.
> 
> 
> The 1000 year reign is either now or has passed. No way is it in our future. Christ is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, not will be-- He is!



Amen, he is now king of kings and lord of lords. He is waiting for his father to tell him to come get us. Only the father knows. The bible says two will be in a field, one taken, one left behind. I know rapture isn't in the bible but it means a taken up or calling up. We will be caught up together. I guess we will go in circles but the bible is to clear about all of this


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## Artfuldodger (May 7, 2014)

We've been discussing the end is near according to what John said. What did Jesus say about the end being near? We could compare the two. John was speaking for Jesus so the end being near as being near or in the distant future should be addressed to the same audience.


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## hobbs27 (May 7, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> I guess we will go in circles but the bible is to clear about all of this



No I dont suspect we will go in circles. I will bring up the fact that the first verse of Revelation says " things which must shortly come to pass" or Revelation 1:7 that clearly states that the ones that pierced Him would see His coming.

The fact that Jesus said concerning his coming; "Assueredly , I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place" in Matthew 24& many more places about the urgency of the coming kingdom and end of time from Malachi to Revelation.

 I will get no rebuttal on these verses because there are none. They say what they say, and I believe them unlike futurist.


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## hobbs27 (May 7, 2014)

1 A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly; and he did signify [it], having sent through his messenger to his servant John,

2 who did testify the word of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ, as many things also as he did see.

3 Happy is he who is reading, and those hearing, the words of the prophecy, and keeping the things written in it --for the time is nigh!

4 John to the seven assemblies that [are] in Asia: Grace to you, and peace, from Him who is, and who was, and who is coming, and from the Seven Spirits that are before His throne,

5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born out of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth; to him who did love us, and did bathe us from our sins in his blood,

6 and did make us kings and priests to his God and Father, to him [is] the glory and the power to the ages of the ages! Amen.

7 Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye,even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen!

8 `I am the Alpha and the Omega, beginning and end, saith the Lord, who is, and who was, and who is coming -- the Almighty.'

9 I, John, who also [am] your brother, and fellow-partner in the tribulation, and in the reign and endurance, of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, because of the word of God, and because of the testimony of Jesus Christ;

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's-day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, saying,

 These first ten verses are loaded with goodies that futurist deny..Things which must shortly come to pass, the time is nigh, John was in tribulation then at that time!


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## Israel (May 7, 2014)

2Pe 3:5  For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 
2Pe 3:6  Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 
2Pe 3:7  But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 
2Pe 3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 
2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 
2Pe 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 
2Pe 3:11  Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 
2Pe 3:12  Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 
2Pe 3:13  Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 
2Pe 3:14  Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 
2Pe 3:15  And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 

Rom_11:25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 

Luk 21:24  And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. 
Luk 21:25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 
Luk 21:26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 
Luk 21:27  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 
Luk 21:28  And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.


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## hobbs27 (May 7, 2014)

I bought this book on my kindle account a while back and just started it, boy do I feel dumb now knowing the guy offers a free online version of the book... Anyways here's a link that describes what the  so called rapture truly is according to Gods word.                      http://raptureless.com/book/?read=chapter2


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## Artfuldodger (May 7, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I bought this book on my kindle account a while back and just started it, boy do I feel dumb now knowing the guy offers a free online version of the book... Anyways here's a link that describes what the  so called rapture truly is according to Gods word.                      http://raptureless.com/book/?read=chapter2



I'll have to read that later. Did you see the link I posted on the thread about Satan? Here is what he said about the "Rapture." I haven't read this article either, maybe tomorrow:

http://www.andrewcorbett.net/articles/rapture.htm


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## hobbs27 (May 8, 2014)

Here's the chapter points of chapter 1.

_The belief in a future rapture, antichrist, and Great Tribulation are new ideas that arose from a reaction against the Reformation in the 1500s.
John Darby reintroduced this view, and C.I Scofield popularized it in his Scofield Reference Bible in the early 1900s. Thus it became mainstream belief among evangelical and charismatic Christians.
The appearance of many new cults in that same era and the worldwide negative impact of World War I, The Great Depression, and World War II firmly rooted a negative view of the end in much of the Christian community.
End-time predictors such as Hal Lindsey and Edgar Whisenant sold millions of copies of predictive books that have been proven to be false prophecy, yet their teachings are still heeded by many Christians.
This new end-time view consistently bears bad fruit in its adherents.
It would be wiser to live with a long-term, optimistic view (and end up being wrong and suddenly raptured out) than to live with a rapture-focused, short-term view (and end up being wrong and ultimately be held accountable for not working to advance the Kingdom in your lifetime)._

Now my question to Barry is, since the founder of the Church of Christ movement was a Campbell and you refer to them as Campbellites , wouldn't your belief in Darbyism qualify you as a Darbyite?


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## Artfuldodger (May 8, 2014)

When the dead in Christ are raised, their vile bodies being made like unto his glorious body, then,

Those who are alive shall be changed, and made immortal.

These shall be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air.

(person explaining these events aren't a rapture but part of the resurrection)

My question is, what's the difference?


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## gemcgrew (May 8, 2014)

Israel said:


> 2Pe 3:5  For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
> 2Pe 3:6  Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
> 2Pe 3:7  But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
> 2Pe 3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
> ...


You just had to go and complicate things....didn't you?


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## Artfuldodger (May 8, 2014)

1 Thessalonians 4:14
For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

(Couldn't this be the other way around? God will bring them with Jesus to Heaven, not from Heaven. When Jesus goes back to Heaven, God will bring those asleep with him.)

1 Thessalonians 4:17
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

(Together with the living,who will be transformed, will be with the Lord forever. It doesn't sound like they were already with the Lord. He came for them and God will bring them with Jesus back to Heaven as mentioned in verse 14.)


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## Artfuldodger (May 8, 2014)

Caller:But if you notice in verse 14, okay, if that was I guess the case, then there would be no need for them to say 'bring with Him'. The word 'bring' there denotes that they're coming from somewhere and they're coming from somewhere He was. It denotes that they were with Him um, and like I said, I guess, recognizing that yes the dead will rise first and so on and so forth, I look at it as the bodies will rise first but um...

Pastor Doug:Let me interrupt you for just a second here okay?

Callerkay. All right.

Pastor Doug:Jesus said I go to prepare a place for you, John 14, and if I go, I will come again and receive you unto Myself that where I am, you may be also. In other words, He's going to take them back to the Mansions right? So when it says here in verse 14 'God will bring with Him', He's going to bring those who were resurrected back to those Mansions. He's not saying that He has brought them from the Mansions because He tells us in John 14 He brings them to the Mansions. When does He do that? After they are resurrected.

http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-l...he-believers-who-have-died-when-he-comes.aspx


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## Artfuldodger (May 8, 2014)

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who are asleep.

Why explain this sequence of resurrection events if the Dead are already with Jesus before he gets here?


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## hobbs27 (May 8, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> When the dead in Christ are raised, their vile bodies being made like unto his glorious body, then,
> 
> Those who are alive shall be changed, and made immortal.
> 
> ...



The rapture theology is a secret event, if you remember those fiction books called "left behind" you can see the difference, in rapture and resurrection. In a rapture people are going about their business and poof! They're gone, vanished! Lol if so many people didn't actually believe in that it would be really funny.

The author of this book is where I was last year, and maybe someday I'll go back to seeing things that way, so although I don't agree with him 100% on the way things are, I do agree with him on the false teaching of rapture.


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## Artfuldodger (May 8, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> The rapture theology is a secret event, if you remember those fiction books called "left behind" you can see the difference, in rapture and resurrection. In a rapture people are going about their business and poof! They're gone, vanished! Lol if so many people didn't actually believe in that it would be really funny.
> 
> The author of this book is where I was last year, and maybe someday I'll go back to seeing things that way, so although I don't agree with him 100% on the way things are, I do agree with him on the false teaching of rapture.



If the Dead are resurrected and meet Jesus in the clouds and the living are tranformed and are called up together, with the Dead, at the same time in the clouds.
Won't there be people left behind?


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## hobbs27 (May 8, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> If the Dead are resurrected and meet Jesus in the clouds and the living are tranformed and are called up together, with the Dead, at the same time in the clouds.
> Won't there be people left behind?



Nope. In the authors belief everyone gets called up for the final judgement, the righteous and unrighteous to receive their reward. He believes that to be the end of earth, where rapture believers, think it is only the beginning of an end.

I need to edit this because I've only read the first two chapters and at this point I'm just assuming the authors beliefs.


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## Artfuldodger (May 8, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Nope. In the authors belief everyone gets called up for the final judgement, the righteous and unrighteous to receive their reward. He believes that to be the end of earth, where rapture believers, think it is only the beginning of an end.
> 
> I need to edit this because I've only read the first two chapters and at this point I'm just assuming the authors beliefs.



So a rapture is Christians both dead and alive meet Jesus in the clouds, are judged seperately from non-Christians, and then go back to Heaven with Jesus.

I guess what I've always believed is after the one resurrection we would meet Jesus in the clouds but come to earth with him for his earthly reign.Then we would all be judged together, sinners & believers.
I guess a big difference is if we are all resurrected together or one group following the other, believers then sinners. I've always thought we would. I've always thought we'd be judged together too but I do know there are different judgements. I've never read about two different resurrections though.


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## Artfuldodger (May 8, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Nope. In the authors belief everyone gets called up for the final judgement, the righteous and unrighteous to receive their reward. He believes that to be the end of earth, where rapture believers, think it is only the beginning of an end.
> 
> I need to edit this because I've only read the first two chapters and at this point I'm just assuming the authors beliefs.



In your belief as a Preterist, one is resurrected immediately. Doesn't this make the point of a Rapture null to begin with?
In my view I'll need my body to reign with Jesus. I don't know why raptured Christians will need a resurrected body.


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## hobbs27 (May 8, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> In your belief as a Preterist, one is resurrected immediately. Doesn't this make the point of a Rapture null to begin with?
> In my view I'll need my body to reign with Jesus. I don't know why raptured Christians will need a resurrected body.



I believe the resurrection was completed in 70ad and was merely the emptying of Hades. It began after Christ resurrection in Matthew 27 and continued for the next 40 years until Christ came back and salvation came to us .

The Old Testament had no way of being restored to eternal life. They had to wait in Hades till Christ blood was shed, only through Christ blood do we again restore eternal life which was taken from Adam in the garden.

Now that Christ has done all that was prophesied, we have eternal life restored through him and no longer face a second death, unless we have no faith,then we die the final death.

 A future resurrection makes no sense to me and denies that salvation has come.


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## gemcgrew (May 8, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> A future resurrection makes no sense to me and denies that salvation has come.


The futurist deny that Christ accomplished his mission... "it is finished".


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## hobbs27 (May 8, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> The futurist deny that Christ accomplished his mission... "it is finished".



What is that (it)? You and I both know Jesus had more things to do , at the time He said this He Himself had not resurrected.


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## M80 (May 8, 2014)

Hobbs why haven't you responded to Israel's post


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## hobbs27 (May 8, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> Hobbs why haven't you responded to Israel's post



 This?

_2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 
2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 

Rom_11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. 
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. _

 Why don't you understand that I believe every word of that? There is only a timing issue, I see where it fits perfectly in our past just as Jesus said, and some of you want to put it into our future. The things that were in the near future in 33- 68 ad happened in 70 ad, no scripture in the bible is written after that time.


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## ecole (May 8, 2014)

Has anyone ever studied up on the idea of, Dual fulfillment of prophecies? I have thought about it before but never studied it out. I googled it just to see what came up and a lot on the subject came up. Some of what I scanned through dealt with what is being discussed. Again I haven't sat down and studied it just wondering if anyone else had.


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## Artfuldodger (May 9, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I believe the resurrection was completed in 70ad and was merely the emptying of Hades. It began after Christ resurrection in Matthew 27 and continued for the next 40 years until Christ came back and salvation came to us .
> 
> The Old Testament had no way of being restored to eternal life. They had to wait in Hades till Christ blood was shed, only through Christ blood do we again restore eternal life which was taken from Adam in the garden.
> 
> ...



If the resurrection is complete, did the living at that time   meet Jesus in the clouds?


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## hobbs27 (May 9, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> If the resurrection is complete, did the living at that time   meet Jesus in the clouds?



We still do. This is one of those texts that gets misunderstood. It deserves a closer study.

1 Thessalonians 4&5 is a parallel to Matthew 24&25. Compare them.


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## barryl (May 9, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Here's the chapter points of chapter 1.
> 
> _The belief in a future rapture, antichrist, and Great Tribulation are new ideas that arose from a reaction against the Reformation in the 1500s.
> John Darby reintroduced this view, and C.I Scofield popularized it in his Scofield Reference Bible in the early 1900s. Thus it became mainstream belief among evangelical and charismatic Christians.
> ...


Hee Hee, you funny Hobbs. The Holy Spirit is the author of my final authority, KJV 1611 AV.  Just call me a "Bible Believer" Now that we've got that cleared up, wouldn't it be really embarrassing to have to admit when we get right down to the nuts and bolts of it all your final authority is a Theocratic Church State, or Noe or Bray?  Take a little time to study up on "Dean Farrar" a Jesuit Priest, Spain(1614)


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## hobbs27 (May 9, 2014)

barryl said:


> Hee Hee, you funny Hobbs. The Holy Spirit is the author of my final authority, KJV 1611 AV.  Just call me a "Bible Believer" Now that we've got that cleared up, wouldn't it be really embarrassing to have to admit when we get right down to the nuts and bolts of it all your final authority is a Theocratic Church State, or Noe or Bray?  Take a little time to study up on "Dean Farrar" a Jesuit Priest, Spain(1614)



My Final Authority is Christ.


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## SemperFiDawg (May 9, 2014)

There are a myriad of problems with preterism with respect to actual historical evidence or in some cases, lack there of.  

Without going into scripture and building a case around our individual interpretation of it which obviously can be biased, let's take a very simple yet honest appraisal of the situation.

I think everyone would agree without exception that if The Book of Revelation was written after 70 a.d. then full preterism cannot be true.  It simply cannot.   Any arguments on this point?

With that being said the historical evidence is overwhelming that 1)not only was Revelation written during the Reign of Domitian (who exiled John to Patmos) and ruled from 81-96 a.d 

This in itself is enough to disprove full preterism but also 

2) The same early church Fathers who actually KNEW John and attested that it was Domitian that exiled him to Patmos held to the belief the millenium was a FUTURE event.  

To say that those who PERSONALLY KNEW John and had PERSONALLY HEARD his teaching were either mistaken or misleading flies on the face of reason and common sense.

Let's look at what John's pupils and contemporaries had to say regarding who placed him on Patmos and where they placed the Millenium.



> Polycarp-Pupil of John the Apostle (Polycarp-Pupil of John the Apostle (AD. 70-156)
> THE EPISTLE OF POLYCARP TO THE PHILIPPIANS
> CHAPTER VI.--THE DUTIES OF PRESBYTERS AND OTHERS
> "we must all appear at the judgment-seat of Christ, and must every one give an account of himself." Let us then serve Him in fear, and with all reverence, even as He Himself HAS COMMANDED US, AND AS THE APOSTLES WHO PREACHED THE GOSPEL UNTO US, and the prophets who proclaimed beforehand the coming of the Lord [have alike taught us]."  (A.D. 70-156)
> ...





> CHAPTER II.--AN EXHORTATION TO VIRTUE
> "But He who raised Him up from the dead WILL raise up us also"



A pupil of John that was born the year the Romans destroyed Jerusalem yet saw the Coming of The Lord as a future event.



> PAPIAS-Pupil of John the Apostle (AD. 70-155)
> FRAGMENTS OF PAPIAS FROM THE EXPOSITION OF THE ORACLES OF THE LORD. V.
> "those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven SHALL go there, others SHALL enjoy the delights of Paradise, and others SHALL possess the splendour of the city; for everywhere the Saviour WILL BE seen, according as they SHALL BE worthy who see Him."
> 
> ...



Another pupil of John's born in 70 a.d.   He clearly sees the Millennium as a future event and there's no ambiguity here what so ever.



> IGNATIUS-Pupil of John the Apostle (AD. 67-110)
> 
> THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE TRALLIANS
> CHAPTER IX
> "He was also truly raised from the dead, His Father quickening Him, even as after the same manner His Father WILL SO raise up us who believe in Him by Christ Jesus"



And another of John's pupils who see it as a future event.



> CHAPTER I.--DESIRE OF IGNATIUS FOR MARTYRDOM.
> 
> "Ignatius, the disciple of John the apostle, a man in all respects of an apostolic character, governed the Church of the Antiochians with great care, having with difficulty escaped the former storms of the many persecutions under Domitian"



John's pupil had no question as to who placed John on Patmos.



> Irenaeus-Student of John the Apostles's pupil Polycarp (AD. 120-202)
> 
> AGAINST HERESIES, BOOK V, XXX
> "But he indicates the number of the name now, that WHEN this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: ..But when this Antichrist SHALL HAVE devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord WILL COME from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom"
> ...



A second generation student of John's with a very clear and concise understanding of the proper chronology of the events portrayed in Revelations.   

We could go on with this, but what's the point.  The truth is that John's pupils who lived well after the fall of Jerusalem understood what John had taught them: the millennium was a future event.

Now you can interpret the Bible in general and the Millennium in particular however you like.  That's your right.  You can't with any honesty however, deny nor distort the fact that John was placed on Patmos by Domitian and John's apostles saw the Millenium as a future event.  Either of these facts is enough to disprove the full preterist view.


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## SemperFiDawg (May 9, 2014)

I also indexed this quote from PFRS.  I think it sums up where the evidence falls with regards to John's exile on Patmos very succinctly. 



> *All ancient sources, both Christian and secular, place the banishment of Christians to Patmos during the reign of Domitian (AD81-96). Not a single early source (within 500 years of John) places John's banishment under the reign of Nero, as preterists claim. *All modern attempts to date Revelation during Nero's reign rely exclusively on alleged internal evidence, and ignore or seek to undermine the external evidence and testimony of Christians who lived about that time, some of whom had connections to John.



http://www.pfrs.org/preterism/pret01.html


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## hobbs27 (May 9, 2014)

SemperFiDawg...Glad to see this challenge. Preterism cannot be refuted in scripture because preterism requires sola scriptura and believes all scripture to be true where futurist must deny scriptures and especially deny Jesus own words.

 This is a better way to attempt to refute preterism especially full preterism since it is fairly new and refuted by the traditional church, just as the reformation was in its day.

 I have already posted a response to the late dating of Revelation which just cant be done for many reasons. One of those reasons is that futurist would have us believe that a 85-90 year old man was banished to an island in punishment. Another is that the temple was still standing in revelation.

_The Temple was still standing


One of the most compelling proofs that Revelation was written before Jerusalem was destroyed is the fact that the Jewish temple was still standing!


Revelation 11:1-2, "And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months." 
How do we know that this was the temple of the first century and not some future one? First, there is not one verse in the entire Bible that speaks of a "rebuilt" Jewish Temple. Not one. That alone should be proof enough. 


However, this passage is very similar to Luke 21:20-24. Notice that Jesus told the disciples that they would see this event. They had asked Him about their temple (verse 5), and Jesus told them it would be destroyed before their generation passed away (verse 32). Notice again what Jesus said in verse 24, "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles." This is the same thing Christ told John in Revelation 11:2. Therefore, since the disciples' generation has long since passed away, Revelation must have been written before the nations trampled Jerusalem under foot in AD 70. 

_
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/revelation.html


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## SemperFiDawg (May 9, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> SemperFiDawg...Glad to see this challenge. Preterism cannot be refuted in scripture because preterism requires sola scriptura and believes all scripture to be true where futurist must deny scriptures and especially deny Jesus own words.



That's a nice attempt to claim the high ground of scripture, but it's not exactly accurate.  Preterist, Futurist and Historacist can all claim to be Scripturally accurate, but each depends on their own INTERPRETATION of scripture.  Your claim that Preterism cannot be refuted in scripture is true ONLY if one holds to a preterist explanation.   I could very well say there is absolutely grounds for preterism at all in scripture, which is essentially what you said about futurism, yet it would only be a biased opinion, just as yours was.  

The fact is, and I repeat, preterist, futurist, and Historacist can all find scriptural support for their positions.  To say any different simply is not true.  That being said, all are equal in that regard.  If you look at the historical evidence however, it becomes evident very quickly that the preterist view was not just absent, but would have been unthinkable in light of what John had personally taught them.


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## Artfuldodger (May 9, 2014)

Futurist tend to ignore Israel as meaning the country or people. They don't get into too much of that Jewish stuff. I guess because the Jews didn't believe God so he turned over his religion to us the Gentiles. Maybe we were secretly his chosen people so he picked the Jews to be the bad guys.


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## hobbs27 (May 9, 2014)

SemperFiDawg 
 I have yet to hear a futurist accept Revelation 1:1 and I've left that open for a challenge with no one making an attempt to explain .

 Or Matthew 24:35. & Matthew 5:18. Until I hear a good futurist response of these verses I will continue to say the futurist denies some scripture.

BTW, historical or partial preterism has been around since the early church, with commments on it as early as Tertulian (sp?)

It's only full preterism that came along in the 1800's, but I think it corrects a lot .


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## hobbs27 (May 9, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Futurist tend to ignore Israel as meaning the country or people. They don't get into too much of that Jewish stuff. I guess because the Jews didn't believe God so he turned over his religion to us the Gentiles. Maybe we were secretly his chosen people so he picked the Jews to be the bad guys.



Maybe we are now Jews?


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## Artfuldodger (May 9, 2014)

I'm not a Preterist but I don't really see any events soon after 96AD that fit as well as the 70AD events. We must look at the time statements.


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## Artfuldodger (May 9, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Maybe we are now Jews?



We are but my point was how most denominations ignore a lot of Israel & Jerusalem ties to Bible verses because to them it means something else, possibly even the U.S. Either way they don't seem to know as much about it as Preterist or they don't tie it all together as well as Preterist.


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## hobbs27 (May 9, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> We are but my point was how most denominations ignore a lot of Israel & Jerusalem ties to Bible verses because to them it means something else, possibly even the U.S. Either way they don't seem to know as much about it as Preterist or they don't tie it all together as well as Preterist.



It is a must to understand Jewish culture when understanding scripture, and you're right. When we try to force the bible into our current culture and into our times; it becomes a mess.


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## SemperFiDawg (May 9, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> SemperFiDawg
> I have yet to hear a futurist accept Revelation 1:1 and I've left that open for a challenge with no one making an attempt to explain .
> 
> Or Matthew 24:35. & Matthew 5:18. Until I hear a good futurist response of these verses I will continue to say the futurist denies some scripture.
> ...



I have no problem with either verse, I fully accept and believe both.  I only reject the preterist *interpretation* of them.  It's not accurate to charge someone with disbelief of scripture when in truth the only thing being rejected is your personal interpretation.

As far as how far back partial preterism was represented in the early Church, the earliest I could find was Eusebius in the early 4th century, however it really makes no difference what-so-ever how early it was present.  We have numerous DIRECT and PERSONAL pupils of John providing clear and concise evidence that unequivocally refutes it's core concept.
Based on this fact alone, Preterism simply cannot be a correct interpretation of scripture.  I'm sorry, it just can't.


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## SemperFiDawg (May 10, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Futurist tend to ignore Israel as meaning the country or people. They don't get into too much of that Jewish stuff. I guess because the Jews didn't believe God so he turned over his religion to us the Gentiles. Maybe we were secretly his chosen people so he picked the Jews to be the bad guys.



To you first point.  Maybe you should do a bit of investigation as to which camp historically has and continues to support the concept of Zionism.  Here's a hint.  It ain't the preterist.

As to you last statement:



> Maybe we were secretly his chosen people so he picked the Jews to be the bad guys.



It's woefully Scripturally ignorant, anti Semitic and evil.

Please tell me you are simply ignorant to the fact that this is the exact same reasoning Hitler used to justify the Holocaust and not some Aryan ideology you have subscribed to?


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## Artfuldodger (May 10, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> To you first point.  Maybe you should do a bit of investigation as to which camp historically has and continues to support the concept of Zionism.  Here's a hint.  It ain't the preterist.
> 
> As to you last statement:
> 
> ...



As guess you are right on the first point but trying to explain it as a future event/country/temple doesn't make as much sense as explaining it as something that has already happened.

As to the second point which I'll need to work on are theses thoughts:

I got this question from a mom:

Dear Thinktank,
Can you tell me why God chose the Jewish people as  His chosen people in the first place?  From what I understand, we, gentiles are only "in" because of their failure to recognize Jesus for who he is.  How do I one day explain this to my daughter?

I replied:

The 'short answer' is:

1. The Jews were only chosen for SERVICE, not for SALVATION (they were to be a "kingdom of priests", ministering TO us Gentiles--Exodus 19.6)

2. We Gentiles are ONLY chosen for service (since they failed to do the job)...We are called a "kingdom of priests" in 1 Pet 2.9, where the Exodus passage/image is applied to US Gentile;

3. They were only chosen because they were descendents of Abraham--in other words, God chose ABRAHAM--NOT 'them' per se...and they didn't live up to his character ( because of lack of faith), so God lets US Gentiles be children of Abe (Rom 4-5) instead, since we walk 'as he did in faith'--but its still JUST to be a conduit for "all the nations of the earth shall be blessed through you (Abraham)"--Gen 12.3.

Salvation was still offered to non-Jews in the OT (cf. Jonah) and to Jews in the NT (Paul's evangelism to them), so who is 'chosen' at any given moment (in the sense of Jew or Gentile) is for the privilege of SERVICE and OUT-REACH, not for being SAVED...

Also, from a parenting standpoint, I would point out your daughter that:

1. God will use anybody with a faithful heart--even us Gentiles as wild branches--so she can make a great impact on the world for good by developing loyalty, closeness, commitment, and loving devotion to our Lord;

2. God will treat the families of His loyal and intimate friends (cf. Abe was called a 'friend of God'--the only one so-called in the OT) with special blessing (Abe, Israel), because of the sweetness of such a relationship...so she can make a great impact on her world THROUGH HER FAMILY for good, by growing close to God and living in love with him...


(this was hastily written, but I hope its clear enough),

thanks for loving your kid "for Him, too" (smile),

glenn

http://christianthinktank.com/choosejews.html


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## hobbs27 (May 10, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I have no problem with either verse, I fully accept and believe both.  I only reject the preterist *interpretation* of them.  It's not accurate to charge someone with disbelief of scripture when in truth the only thing being rejected is your personal interpretation.



 Great! Please show me how you interpret Rev. 1:1 specifically the part about "things which must shortly come to pass"



SemperFiDawg said:


> As far as how far back partial preterism was represented in the early Church, the earliest I could find was Eusebius in the early 4th century, however it really makes no difference what-so-ever how early it was present.


 
 I agree it makes no difference, I pointed it out only to show where you were in error on your claim of it not being in the early church. The problem I have with the early church, after the Apostles is all the corruption that took place. Now I am continuing to search your claim that Johns pupils disputed preterism, this is a first for me and I've spent quite a bit of time studying this because I don't take concerns of my Lord lightly. I truly appreciate the challenge as it is through this that I learn more things.


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## hobbs27 (May 10, 2014)

Here is some interesting early church writings concerning the coming and resurrection.

_On Judaism)
"8:1 Be not seduced by strange doctrines nor by antiquated fables, which are profitless. For if even unto this day we live after the manner of Judaism, we avow that we have not received grace:"

10:3 “It is absurd to speak of Jesus Christ with the tongue, and to cherish in the mind a Judaism which has now come to an end. For where there is Christianity there cannot be Judaism. For Christ is one, in whom every nation that believes, and every tongue that confesses, is gathered unto God.” (The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians, Chapter 10)
(On The Timing of the Coming of Christ)
"6:1 Seeing then that in the aforementioned persons I beheld your whole people in faith and embraced them, I advise you, be ye zealous to do all things in godly concord, the bishop presiding after the likeness of God and the presbyters after the likeness of the council of the Apostles, with the deacons also who are most dear to me, having been entrusted with the diaconate of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father before the worlds and appeared at the end of time." (Magnesians)

(On the Parousia/Presence of Christ)
“…How shall we be able to live apart from Him whose disciples, the prophets themselves, in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, being come, raised them from the dead.” (The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians, shorter version, Chapter 9) (c. A.D. 100 - 115)

"How, then, was He manifested to the world? A Star shone forth in heaven above all the other stars, the light of which was inexpressible, while Its novelty struck men with astonishment. And all the rest of the stars, with the sun and moon, formed a chorus to this Star, and its light was exceedingly great above them all. And there was agitation felt as to whence this new Spectacle came, so unlike to everything else [in the heavens]. Hence every kind of magic was destroyed, and every bond of wickedness disappeared; ignorance was removed, and the old kingdom abolished, God Himself being manifested in human form for the renewal of eternal life. And now that took a beginning which had been prepared by God. Henceforth all things were in a state of tumult, because He meditated the abolition of death." (Shorter version, Chapter 19)

"A Star shone forth in heaven above all that were before It, and Its light was inexpressible, while Its novelty struck men with astonishment. And all the rest of the stars, with the sun and moon, formed a chorus to this Star. It far exceeded them all in brightness, and agitation was felt as to whence this new Spectacle [proceeded]. Hence worldly wisdom became folly; conjuration was seen to be mere trifling; and magic became utterly ridiculous. Every law of wickedness vanished away; the darkness of ignorance was dispersed; and tyrannical authority was destroyed, God being manifested as a Man, and Man displaying power as God. ...Now that received a beginning which was perfected by God. Henceforth all things were in a state of tumult, because He meditated the abolition of death." (Longer version, Chapter 19)

“And here, at the manifestation of the Son, magic began to be destroyed, and all bonds were loosed; and the ancient kingdom and the error of evil was destroyed. Henceforward all things were moved together, and the destruction of death was devised, and there was the commencement of that which was perfected in God.” (The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians, Chapter 19 (c. A.D. 100 - 115) ; Syriac version, Chapter 19)

(On the Resurrection)
"9:2 if this be so, how shall we be able to live apart from Him? seeing that even the prophets, being His disciples, were expecting Him as their teacher through the Spirit. And for this cause He whom they rightly awaited, when He came, raised them from the dead."  (Magnesians)

_


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## Artfuldodger (May 10, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Great! Please show me how you interpret Rev. 1:1 specifically the part about "things which must shortly come to pass"
> QUOTE]
> 
> Some interprete this as John was dropped off on his vision quest right before the end times. So "things which must shortly come to pass" will be from that drop off point in his vision. Vision being the revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him.
> When i asked this in another thread I was given the lesson of the Budding Fig Tree.  How do you interprete this parable?


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## hobbs27 (May 10, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Some interprete this as John was dropped off on his vision quest right before the end times. So "things which must shortly come to pass" will be from that drop off point in his vision. Vision being the revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him.
> When i asked this in another thread I was given the lesson of the Budding Fig Tree.  How do you interprete this parable?



 The budding fig tree parable was Jesus way of explaining to His disciples the signs in which He just told them. It was important that the children of the kingdom leave Jerusalem when the end came.


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## gemcgrew (May 10, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> What is that (it)? You and I both know Jesus had more things to do , at the time He said this He Himself had not resurrected.


Redemption! All the promises, types and prophecies of OT ... fulfilled.


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## hobbs27 (May 10, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Redemption! All the promises, types and prophecies of OT ... fulfilled.



Thats an interesting concept. So all of Daniel was fulfilled at the cross?


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## hobbs27 (May 10, 2014)

Just something to think of as some of us claim all is lost in interpretations.

_Any method of interpretation is dangerous if it perverts the true meaning of scripture, and of course the ultimate test as to whether the true meaning of scripture has been ascertained, will be in the field of harmony and consistency. Any principle of interpretation that fails to advance harmony of thought and purpose in every related field of study must be considered as false. God’s eternal purpose is so constituted and unfolded in the scriptures, that the only right method of interpretation can be advanced entirely free of contradiction, inconsistency, or disharmony. The right method will not only meet the demands of the immediate scripture or context, but also of every related scripture or context" -- Max R. King_


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## Israel (May 10, 2014)

I have every confidence no one is going to say "see, I was right"...at the appearance of the Lord Jesus.


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## SemperFiDawg (May 10, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Great! Please show me how you interpret Rev. 1:1 specifically the part about "things which must shortly come to pass"
> 
> 
> 
> I agree it makes no difference, I pointed it out only to show where you were in error on your claim of it not being in the early church. The problem I have with the early church, after the Apostles is all the corruption that took place. Now I am continuing to search your claim that Johns pupils disputed preterism, this is a first for me and I've spent quite a bit of time studying this because I don't take concerns of my Lord lightly. I truly appreciate the challenge as it is through this that I learn more things.



Hey Brother.  Been outside all day trying to get the boat ready for fishing season.  Just now settling in and getting around to your question:



> "how you interpret Rev. 1:1 specifically the part about "things which must shortly come to pass"



Simply I don't think you can put a time frame on " shortly".

Zephaniah 1:14

14 Near is the great day of the Lord,
Near and coming very quickly;

Notice "near" and "quickly" yet it was written 500-700 years B.C but if you continue reading until the last verse 

"
 Will be able to deliver them
On the day of the Lord’s wrath;
And all the earth will be devoured
In the fire of His jealousy,
For He will make a complete end,
Indeed a terrifying one,
Of all the inhabitants of the earth."

It's clear that by " of all the inhabitants of the earth" that this prophecy has not been completely fulfilled.  So we are 2500-2700 years out from this prophecy yet it stated these things would occur "near" and "quickly" so I don't think we can be dogmatic about these adjectives.  God is eternal.  Indeed Peter says this when speaking on this exact subject.

2 Peter 3:3


3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” 5 For [a]when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

I take this to mean "Who am I to say what is soon, near, quickly or shortly to a timeless eternal God.  The verse you speak of Rev 1:1 is written from God's perspective, not mine.  I try to keep that in mind even though it's difficult for me.  The very best I can do is look at the evidence and try to use it to determine what is possible and what isn't.   

The Historacist view (from what little I know of it) may be correct, the futurist view may be correct, even partial preterism may be in part correct, but based on the fact that John's pupils understood the millennium as a future event, there is no way full preterism can be correct.


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## Artfuldodger (May 10, 2014)

So we are making some good points about "time" as it relates to God. Does this make "time" not important in the order of events in the Bible? Maybe "time" is not what we think it is. We might all get to Heaven at the same time after all. 
Now if a day is a thousand years perhaps it's not clear what "of all the inhabitants of the earth" means.

The following is a related article about such:

 In scripture, the phrases "the earth" and "the world" pertaine to a locality, and not to the whole earth. Even when America was first discovered by Europeans, it was called "the new world." This phrase did not refer to a new planet, but just a locality on the same planet.

1. Most would say that the flood covered all the earth, but in Hebrew, the word for "earth" can mean locality as well:

a. God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and Lot's daughters said "there's not a man in the earth (erets) to come in unto us" (Genesis 19:31) We know that not every man in the world was killed ... only those in the area of the destruction.

b. Exodus 9:33 "the rain was not poured upon the earth" #776 (erets)... Of course we understand it is just speaking about a certain area in Egypt.

c. In Jeremiah 34:1, "all the kingdoms of the earth of his dominion, and all the peoples, fought against Jerusalem." There the phrase "of the earth" is limited to "his dominion," i.e., the dominion of Nebuchadnezzar.

d. In II Chronicles 36:23, Cyrus' empire is said to have encompassed "all the kingdoms of the earth." But there were kingdoms in the Far East which were surely not included.

e. Acts 11:28 speaks of a similar famine "throughout all the world," yet it is not likely it really meant over the whole globe including the New World.

f. Luke 2:1 refers to a decree which went out to tax "the whole world." But this only refers to the territories that the Romans controlled. 

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/flood.html


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## Artfuldodger (May 10, 2014)

Zephaniah 1:14
14 Near is the great day of the Lord,
Near and coming very quickly;

I would say this prophesy was 500-700 years away. Not just a Preterist interpretation:

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly,.... Not the day of judgment, but the day of God's vengeance upon the Jews, which yet bore some resemblance to that day of the Lord, and it may be therefore so called; as the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans had some likeness to it,

(that still doesn't explain what "near" or "soon" means unless it was given from the prospective of being transported to right before the event.) 
If Revelation 1:1 was the only verse for explaining the 70AD temple destruction being soon that wouldn't be a problem.


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## Artfuldodger (May 10, 2014)

The Day of the Lord
…12"It will come about at that time That I will search Jerusalem with lamps, And I will punish the men Who are stagnant in spirit, Who say in their hearts, 'The LORD will not do good or evil!' 13"Moreover, their wealth will become plunder And their houses desolate; Yes, they will build houses but not inhabit them, And plant vineyards but not drink their wine." 14Near is the great day of the LORD, Near and coming very quickly; Listen, the day of the LORD! In it the warrior cries out bitterly.

Where is this Jerusalem?


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## hobbs27 (May 10, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Simply I don't think you can put a time frame on " shortly".
> 
> .



Sorry to do this but it's so appropriate. I've heard a line like this before.


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## hobbs27 (May 10, 2014)

Zephaniah 1:14 Near is the great day of the Lord,
Near and coming very quickly;

 Which was in reference to: 



Zephania 2:13
And He will stretch out His hand against the north And destroy Assyria, And He will make Nineveh a desolation, Parched like the wilderness.

because: Zephaniah prophesied during the reign of Josiah, one of the best of the kings of Judah. He reigned from 640 BC to 609BC. His reference to the future destruction of Nineveh (2:13), which took place in 612 BC, fixes his writing before that event So the prophet ministered somewhere between 640 and 612 BC. His contemporaries were Nahum, Habakkuk, and the young Jeremiah. Jeremiah's ministry continued beyond the destruction of Jerusalem in 586 BC.

 AGAIN The futurist errors by putting themselves in the bible and the bible in their time!


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## Artfuldodger (May 10, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Zephaniah 1:14 Near is the great day of the Lord,
> Near and coming very quickly;
> 
> Which was in reference to:
> ...



I'm not where you are and may never be but your input on time, events, and how the Bible is related to these times and events has helped me tremendously. 
I must say when you first mentioned your quest a year or two ago or whenever into Preterism, I thought it the biggest folly I'd ever heard. Back then I had never heard or seen the Bible presented in that light.
I'm the type of person who is at least willing to consider. My only quest is for the truth even if it's not what I was taught. Even if it's not what I want it to be. I'm willing to admit that I could have been indoctrinated incorrectly.
I don't believe, as someone suggested, that I should just pick something and believe it. Why would God want me to do this?


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## hobbs27 (May 11, 2014)

Art, I'm glad understanding time restraints in scripture is making bible study easier for you. You truly are a seeker of truth, and it is indeed hard to pull off the blinders of tradition and dispensationalism that hinders God's word.

 The reason this is such an important issue to me Is because :
1. I was lied to and scared by church leaders when I was a kid.

2. Dispensationalism takes hope and joy from the Kingdom. We should be rejoicing everyday and looking forward to another one . Instead we mourn everyday and look back , thinking the best days of Christianity is in the past. I call that the end time blues. 

The good news is not that Jesus is coming back. The good news is that Jesus is here, and He is Lord!


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## M80 (May 11, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Art, I'm glad understanding time restraints in scripture is making bible study easier for you. You truly are a seeker of truth, and it is indeed hard to pull off the blinders of tradition and dispensationalism that hinders God's word.
> 
> The reason this is such an important issue to me Is because :
> 1. I was lied to and scared by church leaders when I was a kid.
> ...



What do you mean Jesus is here. He is at the right hand of the father.  We have the Holy Ghost here right know. I believe in the trinity so In essence he is here. Through the Holy Ghost.


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## hobbs27 (May 11, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> What do you mean Jesus is here. He is at the right hand of the father.  We have the Holy Ghost here right know. I believe in the trinity so In essence he is here. Through the Holy Ghost.



The right hand of God is a metaphor, and yes Christ is at the right hand of God, but I know He is here too, because just a few weeks ago I saw a young man kneel down in prayer mourning. A while later he came up with a smile and proclaimed Jesus Christ had just saved him at that very spot.

Rev 3:20 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.


Hebrews 13:5

5 Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.” 


 Does this sound like a Lord that is in a different place than His kingdom?


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## M80 (May 11, 2014)

He told his disciples he must go so the comforter can come. I believe in the trinity. He works through the Holy Ghost. He does live within my heart. It's the Holy Ghost that we are sealed with which is the earnest of our inheritance.


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## hobbs27 (May 11, 2014)

He came back!


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## Israel (May 11, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Art, I'm glad understanding time restraints in scripture is making bible study easier for you. You truly are a seeker of truth, and it is indeed hard to pull off the blinders of tradition and dispensationalism that hinders God's word.
> 
> The reason this is such an important issue to me Is because :
> 1. I was lied to and scared by church leaders when I was a kid.
> ...


I don't think that I can agree more with that in red.
I would have to ask you as simply as I can, do you imagine, believe, think, that between 33 AD and 70 AD any of the Lord's disciples doubted the reality of that?
Has it ever been less than all that is the truth?


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## M80 (May 11, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> He came back!



When


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## hobbs27 (May 11, 2014)

I'm guessing 70ad, but since I know Jesus is not a liar I know He came back before all of the generation of 30 ad had passed away just as He said He would. Otherwise He was a false prophet.


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## hobbs27 (May 11, 2014)

Israel said:


> I don't think that I can agree more with that in red.
> I would have to ask you as simply as I can, do you imagine, believe, think, that between 33 AD and 70 AD any of the Lord's disciples doubted the reality of that?
> Has it ever been less than all that is the truth?




What I read in the Epistles is a group of faithful that are eagerly awaiting His return. They are seeing the signs and the fig tree is beginning to bud .


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## hobbs27 (May 11, 2014)

Imagine, knowing that Christ was coming within your generation and the signs were appearing...Now thats exciting.


1John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.


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## SemperFiDawg (May 11, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> AGAIN The futurist errors by putting themselves in the bible and the bible in their time!



OK Hobbs.  I give up.  If you can't admit that each and every view has scriptural reasons for believing as they do, and each camp has its strong points and weaknesses we're both wasting each other's time.  You say that at least in part, you feel the way you do is from a childhood experience.  I'll ask this and then say no more, but is it possible this experience is causing you to look at the evidence with a bias because of this.  
    I have always been a futurist.  Mainly because all of the books I first read on the subject were written by futurist.  I have recently begun to ask myself if it is the best explanation, not because I think it makes one hill of beans worth of difference in the grand scheme of things, but because I am a pastor and while I don't preach on this as a topic, it does come up from time to time, and I don't want to mislead anyone.  It does have a bearing on how we understand things, and I owe it to myself and my small congregation to do my very best to be accurate.  I haven't read anything to persuade me to change my view yet, but I may as I continue to investigate.  As of now the only view I have completely ruled out is full preterism, for the already noted reasons.  Again, each has its strengths and weaknesses, but you can't honestly just single one as having "errors" and make believe the other(s) don't.  At least I can't.


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## hobbs27 (May 11, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> OK Hobbs.  I give up.  If you can't admit that each and every view has scriptural reasons for believing as they do, and each camp has its strong points and weaknesses we're both wasting each other's time.


 Postmillennials and Amillennial have have some strong biblical points and weaknesses. Premillennials  distort scripture and make Jesus out a liar therefore I cannot see one thing that supports their system as being scripturally strong. 




> You say that at least in part, you feel the way you do is from a childhood experience.  I'll ask this and then say no more, but is it possible this experience is causing you to look at the evidence with a bias because of this.



 It is because of this that I questioned the modern church's view. Is this a bias any more than someone who just accepts what the church teaches although they see a clear difference to scripture?




> I have always been a futurist.  Mainly because all of the books I first read on the subject were written by futurist.  I have recently begun to ask myself if it is the best explanation, not because I think it makes one hill of beans worth of difference in the grand scheme of things, but because I am a pastor and while I don't preach on this as a topic, it does come up from time to time, and I don't want to mislead anyone.  It does have a bearing on how we understand things, and I owe it to myself and my small congregation to do my very best to be accurate.  I haven't read anything to persuade me to change my view yet, but I may as I continue to investigate.  As of now the only view I have completely ruled out is full preterism, for the already noted reasons.  Again, each has its strengths and weaknesses, but you can't honestly just single one as having "errors" and make believe the other(s) don't.  At least I can't.



 The hill of beans difference it makes is the church is not doing as good as it could. Smart people see the lies from the church and dismiss Christianity altogether. How do you explain that our Lord said He would return within the generation of the people He was talking to almost 2000 years ago? Revelation says those that pierced him would see His return. How do you explain that to a critical thinking non-believer? 
 I believe every word of the bible, and I want everyone to come to know The Lord as their savior. I won't see this happen as long as premillennials continue their same old junk theology of scaring people into believing instead of introducing them to an awesome savior that will never forsake them, and never come back to destroy the world.

Ephesians 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages , world without end. Amen


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## Israel (May 12, 2014)

It's maybe strange to some...but I have no problem at all understanding that at the Lord's revelation those who pierced him see him.
I have no issue with him, even now, suffering much of this generation.
LUKE 17:25


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## SemperFiDawg (May 12, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> The hill of beans difference it makes is the church is not doing as good as it could. Smart people see the lies from the church and dismiss Christianity altogether. How do you explain that our Lord said He would return within the generation of the people He was talking to almost 2000 years ago? Revelation says those that pierced him would see His return. How do you explain that to a critical thinking non-believer?



Don't you think "lies" is a bit strong of a word?  Again, each view has its strengths and weaknesses.  "Lies" implies intentional deceit.

He did return within the generation that he spoke to and those that pierced him saw him.  It's called the resurrection.  If they didn't see him then, they will see him at the Great White Throne Judgment.  Speaking of which, do you have any scriptural or external evidence to even suggest that this happened in 70 AD?  I would say there isn't a shred of evidence anywhere to suggest that this has happened.  Anyway, y'all have at it.  I'm gonna vacate the conversation.


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## hobbs27 (May 12, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Don't you think "lies" is a bit strong of a word?  Again, each view has its strengths and weaknesses.  "Lies" implies intentional deceit.



In some cases maybe just ignorance, but there's the liars too.  I would invite you to listen to some of John Hagee stuff for instance.

  I view the Great White Throne judgement along with Armageddon and a few other things in Revelation as past, present , and future. In other words it is ongoing, this is the preterist idealist view that most matches what I believe to be true. As an individual that trusts the word of God and the Holy Spirit I must say I do not conform to any one system but allow the scriptures and the Spirit to conform me.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ is the unveiling or introduction. It is in my view the Gospel of the present kingdom.

 Since you're open to the truth because of your pastoral responsibilities, you may want to take a look at this Q&A with your bible open when time permits. Some in your congregation may have these very questions. Again I'm not totally conformed to all these answers but many..

http://www.preteristcosmos.com/questionsandanswers.html


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## Artfuldodger (May 12, 2014)

Maybe "all things being near" is far,far away after all. More confusing than near being far is in the more common Christian belief in judgement at death. 
How is one sent to Heaven or he11 if one hasn't been judged at death? Mentioning the Great White Throne Judgement being far away, how are we judged when we die?
Now reading about the Great White Throne Judgement, it's all about rewards or punishement for our deeds/works.
This goes against salvation less works;

Question: "What is the Great White Throne Judgment?"

Answer: The great white throne judgment is described in Revelation 20:11-15 and is the final judgment prior to the lost being cast into the lake of fire. We know from Revelation 20:7-15 that this judgment will take place after the millennium and after Satan, the beast, and the false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:7-10). The books that are opened (Revelation 20:12) contain records of everyone’s deeds, whether they are good or evil, because God knows everything that has ever been said, done, or even thought, and He will reward or punish each one accordingly (Psalm 28:4; 62:12; Romans 2:6; Revelation 2:23; 18:6; 22:12).

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/great-white-throne-judgment.html#ixzz31VVXMFQC


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## Artfuldodger (May 12, 2014)

The Defeat of Satan 

7 And when the thousand years are ended, dSatan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out eto deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, fGog and Magog, gto gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And hthey marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded ithe camp of the saints and jthe beloved city, but kfire came down from heaven2 and consumed them, 10 and the devil lwho had deceived them was mthrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where nthe beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

(Hobbs, explain this one for me again. Mainly about the thousand years. I vaguely remember that a thousand years might just mean a long time. Kinda like the whole world isn't always the whole world as we know it. It could have meant the whole world as Jersusalem knew of the world.  Sometimes it kinda gets confusing in my head and I have to walk away for awhile. Eventually it all sinks in, bit by bit.)


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## Artfuldodger (May 12, 2014)

Matthew 25:31–36 

The Final Judgment 

31 i“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, jthen he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him kwill be gathered lall the nations, and mhe will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates nthe sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then othe King will say to pthose on his right, ‘Come, you qwho are blessed by my Father, rinherit sthe kingdom tprepared for you ufrom the foundation of the world. 35 For vI was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you wgave me drink, xI was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 vI was naked and you clothed me, yI was sick and you zvisited me, aI was in prison and you came to me.’


(More works?)
(Individuals or Nations?)
(All Nations or just the ones around Jerusalem?)
(Any dead people in this judgement?)


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## hobbs27 (May 12, 2014)

I think this is interesting and a bit comical at the end.

http://www.biblicalpreteristarchive.com/statements/70-Qs.htm


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## hobbs27 (May 12, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> The Defeat of Satan
> 
> 7 And when the thousand years are ended, dSatan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out eto deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, fGog and Magog, gto gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And hthey marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded ithe camp of the saints and jthe beloved city, but kfire came down from heaven2 and consumed them, 10 and the devil lwho had deceived them was mthrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where nthe beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
> 
> (Hobbs, explain this one for me again. Mainly about the thousand years. I vaguely remember that a thousand years might just mean a long time. Kinda like the whole world isn't always the whole world as we know it. It could have meant the whole world as Jersusalem knew of the world.  Sometimes it kinda gets confusing in my head and I have to walk away for awhile. Eventually it all sinks in, bit by bit.)



The thousand years is symbolic. Has been throughout the bible.." God owns the cattle upon a thousand hills". What about the 1001 hill? Also there's three " thousand year symbols". Are all of them the same, or different? I believe it just represents a span of time, certainly not as literal as soon, near, quickly, or at hand.


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## Israel (May 12, 2014)

can it be we are being changed? Can it be what seems long to us...is not at all...really? Can it be that just what the Lord says...he means...but as to what he means...we cannot decipher by tenses, declensions, punctuations and definitions.
I know some could then say...but if the words are so difficult and not plain (but I believe it is the other way round...the words being plain, and we retaining something of difficulty)...what can we do?
Maybe all that the seeming frustrations can do is make way for what all is to make way for...total reliance upon the Lord Jesus...not only in word...but in truth?


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## hobbs27 (May 12, 2014)

Israel said:


> can it be we are being changed? Can it be what seems long to us...is not at all...really? Can it be that just what the Lord says...he means...but as to what he means...we cannot decipher by tenses, declensions, punctuations and definitions.
> I know some could then say...but if the words are so difficult and not plain (but I believe it is the other way round...the words being plain, and we retaining something of difficulty)...what can we do?
> Maybe all that the seeming frustrations can do is make way for what all is to make way for...total reliance upon the Lord Jesus...not only in word...but in truth?



If all preconceptions were gone, all church history after the Apostles erased and all we had was the bible and the spirit to guide us do you think Christianity would soon become what it is now or that it would be better? Just a thought.


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## Israel (May 12, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> If all preconceptions were gone, all church history after the Apostles erased and all we had was the bible and the spirit to guide us do you think Christianity would soon become what it is now or that it would be better? Just a thought.



That's an interesting question, because personally, I have found little of "church history" to inform my spirit. I have, at times, in places, discovered testimonies of those who have gone before that "ring a bell" so to speak, in whose words I recognize a "hearkening" and a call to investigation...but as to the "histories" themselves...not much. 
"The Reformation" as such, means nothing to me, though some might argue that I have a debt in that. Various revivals, rediscoveries...etc...likewise, may seem places of worth...but it always comes down, for me, to individual testimonies...not the testimonies of those who would say "this here...place...experience...formulation...is worthy of note." I am more inclined to ask those who might say such...what does it mean to you, for you? Or, are we debtors again to history?
Without shucking the worth and depth of experience of previous disciples...I simply cannot, perhaps no longer will not...to accept certain ingredients others demand as essentials, and in so doing, find myself curiously relieved from having to demand much of others...and bear an unwelcome, and probably undelegated burden, once thought my own.

An addendum:
The end of all things is near. 
On the face we might agree...well, of course, to each individual this is always true...some will not lay their head to pillow tonight, even having awakened this morning with many plans and no thought of meeting their Lord...today. And though...even though...we may see this, say this, know this to be true...how many really "have ears to hear"? and understand it is precisely that way?
In theory it may be spoken of...but...what does it look like in practice?
To that, I am interested. To live as dead...raised to life...knowing that this "animation" is entirely in the hands and will of another brings many strange adjustments...to reality.


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## hobbs27 (May 12, 2014)

Art or anyone else interested get your bible out and see if you follow this as the emptying of hades as the resurrection.

1. Immediately after His crucifixion, Jesus descended into Hades ( Acts 2:27,31) where Peter quotes from Psalm16:10 regarding sheol. Jesus spent the better part of three days there (Matt 12:40) During that time between His death and resurrection, He preached to the spirits of the righteous dead held captive (1Peter 3:19-20; 4:6; Eph. 4:9)

2. Jesus came out of Hades via His resurrection from the dead and in fulfillment of Davids Psalm 16:10

3. Next the firstfruit group was raised from the dead as Matthews Gospel recorded ( Matt 27:51-53; 1 Cor 15:20,23 from the typology of Lev.23)

4. When Jesus ascended on high he led captives in his train ( Eph. 4;8) up into heaven with Him.

5 On the last day (singular) John 6:39, 40, 44, 54; 11:24 of the last days (plural) in which they were living back then and there Heb 1:1-2 the rest of the harvest of righteous dead souls were taken out of hades, by-passed earth, were transported directly to heaven , recieved their judgement of rewards /loss ( Hebrews 9:27; 1Cor 3: 10-15) and their new spiritual body ( 1Cor 15:44)  which God gives (1Cor 15:38)


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## M80 (May 12, 2014)

Sorry Hobbs but I can't go along with that. Where are we included in all that.


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## barryl (May 12, 2014)

*Literal Scripture Belief?*

Acts 1:9-11 KJV 1611 AV 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.      After reading some of the most recent posts it ain't to hard to figure out who believes the preserved word of God. Saying it don't make it so.  I'll be glad to give 1 example, "This same Jesus. . . shall so come in like manner" This "same Jesus" will be the one with the nail scarred hands, not the coming of the Spirit at Penecost.


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## hobbs27 (May 12, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> Sorry Hobbs but I can't go along with that. Where are we included in all that.




 Since Hades no longer exists

transported directly to heaven , recieved their judgement of rewards /loss ( Hebrews 9:27; 1Cor 3: 10-15) and their new spiritual body ( 1Cor 15:44)  which God gives (1Cor 15:38)


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## hobbs27 (May 12, 2014)

barryl said:


> After reading some of the most recent posts it ain't to hard to figure out who believes the preserved word of God. Saying it don't make it so.  I'll be glad to give 1 example, "This same Jesus. . . shall so come in like manner" This "same Jesus" will be the one with the nail scarred hands, not the coming of the Spirit at Penecost.



 I never said the coming of the Holy Spirit was Jesus return. And when He did return He came in like manner, " In a cloud of glory"


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## hobbs27 (May 12, 2014)




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## M80 (May 12, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Since Hades no longer exists
> 
> transported directly to heaven , recieved their judgement of rewards /loss ( Hebrews 9:27; 1Cor 3: 10-15) and their new spiritual body ( 1Cor 15:44)  which God gives (1Cor 15:38)



When is the new heaven and new earth coming


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## hobbs27 (May 12, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> When is the new heaven and new earth coming



If you believe Christianity is God's religion then you believe the new heaven and earth has already come since the old heaven and earth was Judaism.


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## hobbs27 (May 12, 2014)

In Leviticus 26:14-20, God warns Israel that she must listen and obey Him in the commandments that He has given them. God uses various terms and expressions in describing what it will be like if they despise His statutes, but notice particularly verse 19: "and I will break the pride of your power, and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass." Compare Genesis 1:1 with Leviticus 26:19, are the terms "heaven and earth" to be understood in the same way? They clearly do not mean the same thing in each verse. Notice how the character of Israel's disposition in God's view is personalized, "your heaven" and "your earth." So the terms "heaven" and "earth" belong or relate to Israel, they evidently constitute a "heaven" and "earth."

Who is God speaking to in Isaiah 1:1-2, "…Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth." The physical creation? No, he is speaking to Israel. And who is the witness in Deuteronomy 4:26, "I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day"? Physical creation or Old Covenant Israel?

Another example of "heaven and earth" being referred to the Covenant World of Israel, and not literal creation, is Isaiah 51:16, "And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people." Notice that God is speaking to Israel. He says he gave them his law, the Old Covenant, the same law Jesus is speaking about in Matthew 5:17-18, to establish heaven and lay the foundation of the earth! Clearly God is not saying he gave the Old Covenant to Israel to create literal heaven and earth! Material creation existed long before Israel was ever given the Old Covenant.

The meaning of this verse is that God gave his covenant with Israel to create their world--a covenant world with God! God created Israel's "heaven and earth" by giving them his Covenant. Now if he destroyed that Old Covenant heaven and earth and gave a New Covenant, would he not thereby be creating a New heaven and earth? This is precisely the thought in the New Covenant Scriptures!

This idea is seen more clearly as we look at other passages where mention is made of the destruction of a state and government using language which seems to set forth the end of the world, as the collapse of heaven and earth. In Isaiah 13:1-13, this is not an oracle against the universe or world, but against the nation of Babylon. Notice verse 13, "Therefore I will shake the heavens, And the earth will move out of her place."

Now remember, he is speaking about the destruction of Babylon, but it sounds like world wide destruction. The terminology of a context cannot be expanded beyond the scope of the subject under discussion. The spectrum of language surely cannot go outside the land of Babylon. If you were a Babylonian and Babylon was destroyed would it seem like the world was destroyed? Yes! Your world would be destroyed.

This is an historical event that took place in 539 BC. When the Medes destroyed Babylon (Isaiah 13:17), the Babylonian world came to an end. This destruction is said in verse 6 to be from the Almighty, and the Medes constitute the means that God uses to accomplish this task. The physical heaven and earth were still in tact, but for Babylon they had collapsed. This is apocalyptic language. This is the way the scripture discusses the fall of a nation. This is obviously figurative language.

In Isaiah 24-27 we see the invasion of Israel by Nebuchadnezzar. He carries them away to captivity. Notice the language that he uses in Isaiah 24:3-6 and Isaiah 24:19-20. What I want you to see in these verses is how God refers to Israel as the earth. He says the earth is "utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly...the earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again" (Verses 1,3,4,19,20). Notice how many times God referred to Israel as the "earth." This is apocalyptic language speaking of the destruction of the people of Israel.

In Isaiah 34:3-5, we have a description of the fall of Edom, notice the language that is used. "...and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down...For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment." This is Biblical language to describe the fall of a nation. It should be clear that it is not to be taken literally.

In Nahum 1:1-5, the subject of this judgment is Nineveh, not the physical world. "The burden of Nineveh...the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. He rebuketh the sea, and maketh it dry, and drieth up all the rivers...The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein." This is the way God describes the fall of a nation. If this language describes the judgment of God on nations, why, when we come to the New Testament, do we make it be the destruction of the universe? It is only because we do not understand how the scripture uses this apocalyptic language.

In Daniel 9:24-27 (and Dan.12:11), Daniel was told that 70 weeks had been determined on his people and city, i.e. Jerusalem. Daniel's prophecy then tells of the time when all prophecy would be fulfilled. When would this be? The end of Daniel's vision was the destruction of Jerusalem that occurred in 70 AD. See Daniel 9:27 and compare it with Matthew 24:15ff where Jesus said the Abomination of Desolation and his coming would occur in his generation (vs.34). Compare Matthew 24:15-19 with Luke 21:20-23; this parallel passage explains this desolation as the destruction of Jerusalem, which occurred in 70AD.


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## Israel (May 13, 2014)

I trudge along, writing even now, as the dim voice of the time clock, which is in communications with my alarm clock, has sent the "message"...get him up, he has to go to work.
"has to"...oh, what a grief. He "has to" work. Each minute passing makes the time clock louder...I "have" only a few more minutes for this...then that must happen. But, this is joy, to speak, even haltingly, of real things...then I must face other things that make this seem so much less than real...the faces that are on people who "must" be connected to dialysis machines...the faces of others who "must work" and feel its grief no less than I, the faces of those whose bodies are rebelling against allowing them to stay  "here" and betray a fear of what "there" might be, arteries dangerously overswollen in some, perilously narrowed in others. The faces of some who seem to say the initials after my name give me power over you, and I will not let you for a minute forget that. The entrance into another place where it seems it is no longer just me and the Lord, and your vague faces reading...but real faces, demanding faces, commanding faces, almost (thankfully!...a remnant) almost all...seeming to make an appeal to something I know I have, but rarely know how to "make work" there. I work, to show a face free of work. A face that might show hope...relief, contentment with just being, even in the "face" of all that contradicts...in pain, in fear, in doubts.
I trust, you do too.

How to lift this "One" up from the earth, the dreadful pull of gravity down to the dissolving of all, where he might draw all men to himself...Up, and away. How to overcome in the faces that scream, like men in free fall whose chutes have all failed them...it's coming...and it's coming up fast...this ground beneath me...soon I will be swallowed. And gone.

yes...it is always and only in beholding a face upon which I have trembled to behold, the face that has said, if it be thy will, let it (the ground) do its worst, and all the faces made of it. I will not resist. But for all, in all, just let me see your face.

And I, I will be satisfied with your likeness...when I awake.


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## hobbs27 (May 13, 2014)




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## hobbs27 (May 13, 2014)

Israel ,the man Jesus saw physical death coming and prayed O my Father, if it be possible let this cup pass from me nevertheless not as I will but as thou.

As the drink of physical death neared on the cross .... Jesus said, I thirst!   

It's a natural feeling to fear death, but I believe with all my heart at sometime that fear will leave and the righteous soul will thirst. Matter of fact sometimes I thirst just knowing that it can happen at anytime to anyone ....I'm ready if it be His will, but my carnal will holds me back, and that spirit bubbles up sometimes saying, let's go home.


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## gordon 2 (May 13, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> 1 Peter 4:7
> The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers.
> 
> Romans 13:11
> ...



 The "end" spoken to here is more than not the accomplishment of our church becoming the celestial city, the Jerusalem of Revelation, "the fulfillment of the age"--the promises of the Sermon on the Mount etc. These will surely be our salvation once and for all. For now we are believers, a people of faith, redeemed with a hope in this salvation.

When Paul speaks about working out our salvation I think these are the things he is talking about. 

"...for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed." To my spirit he says for now the general resurrection is nearer to us than when we were born again.

Romans 13 seems to say to me how to work out this salvation not only for ourselves, but the for the sake of our age ( christianity) achieving fulfillment.

This comes before verse 11:


4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.


This is what I sense Paul means to work out our salvation and not only our own, but of our church age. The salvation referred to here is the resurrection of our bodies both ours individually but also of his and our church and all the elect into new celestial bodies. Or what is a Kingdom now for us in our spirit, in our individual heart from the world, will be Kingdom for all our Soul, both spirit and body. And our once and for all salvation will be that the world will have no sway, no dominion on anything which is ours to live by or contemplate. Corruption and  the levers of sin will have been burned away. 

So every day as believers our salvation is nearer, the end is nearer, and comparing other ages to our age it is especially near... our hope being in one event-- the resurrection our Lord promised and to which he is the type--which type is the resurrection of the body with the Spirit both face to face.

And since love is the fulfillment of the law, to love is to be Christlike and our work towards salvation.

Perhaps.
1 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.

14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

And if there is such a thing as OSAS,  all beings in the New Jerusalem, the celestial city, will be just that.


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## gemcgrew (May 13, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Israel ,the man Jesus saw physical death coming and prayed O my Father, if it be possible let this cup pass from me nevertheless not as I will but as thou.


I do not think there was anticipation of pain or death, but being made sin... He who knew no sin... I can not begin to imagine the heaviness of it.


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## Artfuldodger (May 13, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> I do not think there was anticipation of pain or death, but being made sin... He who knew no sin... I can not begin to imagine the heaviness of it.



Did he take on our sins or serve our penalty for sin?


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## SemperFiDawg (May 13, 2014)

barryl said:


> Acts 1:9-11 KJV 1611 AV 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.



Guess that happened in 70 a d also.  Somebody just forgot to tell John.


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## SemperFiDawg (May 13, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> If you believe Christianity is God's religion then you believe the new heaven and earth has already come since the old heaven and earth was Judaism.



Again, I love how you throw out these inclusive and exclusive statements.  So anyone who doesn't see things as you do doesn't " believe Christianity is God's religion".
Do you realize how condescending that sounds?  

You've got me worried about you Brother.  The only way anyone can be THAT certain they are correct on THIS subject is to have "special knowledge or be omnipotent.  Think about it.


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## hobbs27 (May 13, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Again, I love how you throw out these inclusive and exclusive statements.  So anyone who doesn't see things as you do doesn't " believe Christianity is God's religion".
> Do you realize how condescending that sounds?
> 
> You've got me worried about you Brother.  The only way anyone can be THAT certain they are correct on THIS subject is to have "special knowledge or be omnipotent.  Think about it.



Glad to see you back. Now do you have any rebuttal to the long list of scripture I provided explaining how heaven and earth is figurative language concerning the Old Covenant?

Isaiah 1:2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.


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## hobbs27 (May 13, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Again, I love how you throw out these inclusive and exclusive statements.  So anyone who doesn't see things as you do doesn't " believe Christianity is God's religion".
> Do you realize how condescending that sounds?
> 
> You've got me worried about you Brother.  The only way anyone can be THAT certain they are correct on THIS subject is to have "special knowledge or be omnipotent.  Think about it.



Im confused about this post. Are you saying that people are stuck believing what they believe and cant change so I must not point out what the bible says against their belief?

 Our beliefs should be supported by scripture shouldn't they? Shouldn't we ask the spirit to aid in our understanding of the bible, shouldn't we be able to discern what the spirit is saying and judge if a man is telling truth by matching it to scripture?

 While we're on the topic Ive been comparing dispensationalism to the bible and here's some interesting things Ive found in a book.

1.What does the Bible say about a future 7 year or 3 1/2 year period of tribulation?

2. The antichrist making a 7 or 3 1/2 year covenant with the Jews?

3. God withdrawing Jesus' kingdom because most of the Jews rejected Him?

4. The world getting worse and worse.

5. Jesus coming back and setting up His kingdom in Jerusalem and giving it back to the Jews?

6. A rebuilding of a third Jewish temple?

7.A reinstitution of animal sacrifices? 

There's more of these dispensationalist premillenial beliefs but the answer to each one of these is 0. Its not supported in the bible at all yet 45% of Christian Americans according to one study believe it to be true. I find this troubling!


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## hobbs27 (May 14, 2014)




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## Israel (May 15, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Glad to see you back. Now do you have any rebuttal to the long list of scripture I provided explaining how heaven and earth is figurative language concerning the Old Covenant?
> 
> Isaiah 1:2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.



I trust you do understand that "figurative", when played as a "wild card", is no less than that in the hand of any other? One may decide to play the "must shortly come to pass" in any permutation that yields trump.


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## hobbs27 (May 15, 2014)

Israel said:


> I trust you do understand that "figurative", when played as a "wild card", is no less than that in the hand of any other? One may decide to play the "must shortly come to pass" in any permutation that yields trump.



Hmm, but I'm holding 4 aces with the wild card and I've seen the other guys hand and he's bluffing.

Jesus words put time restraints on the prophecy.
There's a hermeneutic consistency 
There's physical historical evidence
There's spiritual personal evidence.


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## hobbs27 (May 16, 2014)

These questions are posed from " Unraveling the end" A balanced scholarly synthesis of four competing and conflicting end time views.


I have questions for premillenials. In the verses below where is there any mention of a second coming, a temple , a rebuilt temple, re-institution of animal sacrifices, or Jesus sitting on an earthly throne?

Where does it speak of Israel, an earthly Jerusalem, a gathering of the Jews back to Palestine, a revived Jewish kingdom, an earthly utopian paradise, or material prosperity on the earth?

 Where does it speak of a 1000 year reign of Christ? Doesn't it only speak of the saints reigning with Him a thousand years? Nowhere does it limit Christ's reign to a thousand years , does it?





20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


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## gemcgrew (May 16, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Hmm, but I'm holding 4 aces with the wild card and I've seen the other guys hand and he's bluffing.


Your vision may be in question here. The other guy's hand may not yet fully be revealed.


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## hobbs27 (May 16, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Your vision may be in question here. The other guy's hand may not yet fully be revealed.



I don't think there's any more chapters of the bible to be written, and so far the competing side has shown their hand over 240 times, and lost every time. It's becoming somewhat of an embarrassment for Christianity.
Harold Camping being one of the last.


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## gemcgrew (May 16, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I don't think there's any more chapters of the bible to be written, and so far the competing side has shown their hand over 240 times, and lost every time. It's becoming somewhat of an embarrassment for Christianity.
> Harold Camping being one of the last.


Hobbs, I agree that the silence is deafening. My current understanding is more in line with Amillennialism than Full Preterism. I have enjoyed this discussion though and thank you for your time and thoughtful contribution.


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## hobbs27 (May 16, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Hobbs, I agree that the silence is deafening. My current understanding is more in line with Amillennialism than Full Preterism. I have enjoyed this discussion though and thank you for your time and thoughtful contribution.



When I became an adult and got away from the dispensationalist I found a good home in Amillennialism. I really like James Earl Massey & R.C. Sproul. I have listened to Sproul discipline himself and stop himself from crossing the line into preterism many times in humor. I believe he is a preterist at heart.

 The problem I found in Amillennialism is they leave too many things unanswered and the scripture is there to continue on. Its like they see it but dont want to touch it, if you know what I mean?  Dr. John L Bray book "Matthew 24 fulfilled" may have been the book that opened my eyes to something more than amillenialism. He contends to be partial preterist by accepting all of matthew 24 fulfilled &  revelation 20 is in future. I think he too has disciplined himself to keep from creeping over into full preterism, because once you accept that all of matthew 24 is fulfilled its hard to find a stopping point to put things into future.

 People that claim part of matthew 24 is fulfilled mess around with the language to force their opinion. They contend that for no reason at all Jesus went from explaining things that were to happen soon, to things that would happen thousands of years in the future...almost mid sentence. 

 Anyway.. I will continue to challenge dispensationalist every chance I get, I believe what they are teaching is a false Gospel and its certainly not biblical or I would get an answer or two on the many questions Ive asked.


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## gemcgrew (May 16, 2014)

I see dispensationalism as rebranded Judaism.


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## Israel (May 16, 2014)

the end of all threads is at hand, if the vision seems slow...wait for it...


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## BT Charlie (May 16, 2014)

...waiting, boys... .

Or will it really be the third time...?


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## hobbs27 (May 17, 2014)

I ain't waiting on nothing. I'm enjoying Jesus reign now! And looking forward to the rest of eternity!7


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## BT Charlie (May 19, 2014)

I like your avatar, Mr. Hobbs.


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## hobbs27 (May 26, 2014)

http://www.mediafire.com/view/7gdno85ap6a3gnm/TIMING+OF+THE+SECOND+COMING.pdf

This is something for folks to think about.


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