# Tell me why you think the world would be a better place with no Christians....



## jmharris23 (Mar 17, 2016)

That seems to be the general feeling in here....I'd like to know why.


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## 660griz (Mar 17, 2016)

I don't think it would. Then, we would be stuck with Islam. 
Folks in prison, on drugs, living an evil life would either have to bring themselves out of despair and do the right thing or pick a popular God to help. That would probably be Islam. We sure don't need more of them. They haven't evolved as much as Christianity.


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## jmharris23 (Mar 17, 2016)

660griz said:


> I don't think it would. Then, we would be stuck with Islam.
> Folks in prison, on drugs, living an evil life would either have to bring themselves out of despair and do the right thing or pick a popular God to help. That would probably be Islam. We sure don't need more of them. They haven't evolved as much as Christianity.



OK....so then tell me why it would be a better world with no religion whatsoever.


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## Israel (Mar 17, 2016)

660griz said:


> I don't think it would. Then, we would be stuck with Islam.
> Folks in prison, on drugs, living an evil life would either have to bring themselves out of despair and do the right thing or pick a popular God to help. That would probably be Islam. We sure don't need more of them. They haven't evolved as much as Christianity.



On the buffet I might pass by eggs benedict in favor of chicken and dumplings, too. "Gee, I don't like eggs at all, as far as I'm concerned they can do away with them all".
You phrase your response as though you are a man who "does the right thing". Interesting


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## 660griz (Mar 17, 2016)

jmharris23 said:


> OK....so then tell me why it would be a better world with no religion whatsoever.



I will have to come back to that one. No time today. Work getting in the way.


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## 660griz (Mar 17, 2016)

Israel said:


> You phrase your response as though you are a man who "does the right thing". Interesting



You phrase your response as if you know different. Interesting.


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2016)

“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion"
--Steven Weinberg


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2016)

I did a search on the subject. Within that search was another article based off of the author doing a Google search for " would the world be a better place without religion". He got 650,000 hits
That is too much for me to cover, but here is the link if you want to read what the author had to say about it.
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/would...without_religion_a_skeptics_guide_to_the_deba


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## WaltL1 (Mar 17, 2016)

That's the general feeling you get?
That's pretty sad and somewhat insulting but no skin off my back I guess.


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## Israel (Mar 17, 2016)

660griz said:


> You phrase your response as if you know different. Interesting.


No accusation. Just interested in how a man comes to that...unless he believes in a transcendent right and wrong by which he is measured. And he measures others as "not" doing it.



> Folks in prison, on drugs, living an evil life would either have to bring themselves out of despair and do the right thing or pick a popular God to help.



I took the "or" in the choosing of what I must assume as _any_ God.

You even threw "evil life" in the mix.


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## Baroque Brass (Mar 17, 2016)

I don't think anyone here is suggesting the world would be better without religion, but there are countless non believers who are good people and will go out of their way to help someone. Religion is not required to do good in the world. In fact, lots of harm has been done in the name of religion. As for me, it makes no difference whether a person is a believer. What I don't like is a believer shunning me because I don't believe.


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## jmharris23 (Mar 17, 2016)

WaltL1 said:


> That's the general feeling you get?
> That's pretty sad and somewhat insulting but no skin off my back I guess.



I feel like several of the comments in this thread back me up in this general feeling? 

I didn't mean anything by it, and in no way meant to be disrespectful.

 I really believe that most of the non believers in here feel like the world would be a better place without religion. 

Do you think that's not true?


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## jmharris23 (Mar 17, 2016)

Barouque Brass said:


> I don't think anyone here is suggesting the world would be better without religion, but there are countless non believers who are good people and will go out of their way to help someone. Religion is not required to do good in the world. In fact, lots of harm has been done in the name of religion. As for me, it makes no difference whether a person is a believer. What I don't like is a believer shunning me because I don't believe.



I'm not going to disagree with you, at least completely. 

I also agree that no believer should shun an unbeliever, but I'm not sure that happens a lot anyway.


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## Lukikus2 (Mar 17, 2016)

Barouque Brass said:


> I don't think anyone here is suggesting the world would be better without religion, but there are countless non believers who are good people and will go out of their way to help someone. Religion is not required to do good in the world. In fact, lots of harm has been done in the name of religion. As for me, it makes no difference whether a person is a believer. What I don't like is a believer shunning me because I don't believe.



Good post


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 17, 2016)

Should Christians put non believers in the same boat as wrong believers? There are a lot of religions that think the world would be a better place without Christians.

The question could just as easily be asked of Christians "would the world be a better place without people who worship a false God?

Then again if everyone worshiped the one true God and believed Jesus died for their sins, there wouldn't be anyone to convert.
There would be no mission. No evil people. Everyone would be of the elect which we know is not true.

In that respect I'm glad that not everyone is a Christian.

I can't speak for non-believers but the world would probably be better without religion. God no, religion yes. People and nations use religion to justify wars, killing, and taking land. Sometimes under the pretense of converting lost souls to believing in the god or God of the over takers.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 18, 2016)

jmharris23 said:


> I feel like several of the comments in this thread back me up in this general feeling?
> 
> I didn't mean anything by it, and in no way meant to be disrespectful.
> 
> ...


Originally you said better off without Christians and that's what I was commenting on.
As for being better off without religion....
Maybe?
I cant think of anything else  that since the beginning until right now has divided more people the way religion has.
Would man have found something else to divide us in the absence of religion? Maybe but maybe not.
If we want to pretend that the devil actually exists, I honestly believe organized religion may be his greatest accomplishment. All he has to do is sit back and revel in the atrocious things man has done and is doing to each other in the name of their religion.
Couple more comments on us thinking we would be better off without Christians -
You know that several of the A/As and Christians here have gotten together and gone fishing and hunting right?
That's generally not something you do with people you wish didn't exist.
Disagreement on a subject does not equate to hate.


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## Israel (Mar 18, 2016)

WaltL1 said:


> Originally you said better off without Christians and that's what I was commenting on.
> As for being better off without religion....
> Maybe?
> I cant think of anything else  that since the beginning until right now has divided more people the way religion has.
> ...



That is an interesting consideration.
If the "division" is endemic to man, that is a hostility resident...then in one sense...religion, such as it is, would be inevitable. What better method of establishing one's superiority than a "god"...a transcendent endorser of a man's (inevitably that god would have "that mans" attributes) being?

Can you concede, that despite any shortcomings, (of those calling themselves disciples) and even in disregard of the many claims "about" him as to ultimate "meaning"...the history we have of that man, Jesus, is contrary to this?

His disciples may have had "things to say" about associating with certain folk...and the "religious" surely did...but it never deterred Jesus from associating with women, so called sinners, the dread Samaritans (he even went so far as to make the point of the "good" one)...and was not above showing any mercy...Romans included.

In "his" world he found contact with what was thought by some to be "off limits" (again, disciples included...at least till their eyes were opened)...so that, in almost every way religious, social, economic and political barriers...so previously palpable and enforced to unseeing men, were as nothing.

I see Jesus as quite "anti" some stuff, though his "anti- ness" was not his focus. It was his "for-ness" of a thing unseen, unknown,  by which even what appeared the wrongest of all for him to associate with, agreement to his own death, that frees me. That "thing" he is for.

Call me hypocrite for falling short...and you would be correct. But I see, what I see.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 18, 2016)

jmharris23 said:


> I also agree that no believer should shun an unbeliever, but I'm not sure that happens a lot anyway.


There are many unbelievers that I shun. I avoid them like the plague. This is a biblical principle in some cases.


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## Baroque Brass (Mar 18, 2016)

jmharris23 said:


> I'm not going to disagree with you, at least completely.
> 
> I also agree that no believer should shun an unbeliever, but I'm not sure that happens a lot anyway.



Oh, but it does! I know of a very devout, wealthy man who was new to town and asked me for bank recommendations. He chose a bank and deposited what I suspect to be a large sum of money. Later, after learning that the bank president is an athiest, he withdrew all of his money and closed all accounts with the bank. I can give many more examples. Of the Christians I know, many will do their best to not associate with an athiest, believing them to be inherently evil people.


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## 660griz (Mar 18, 2016)

I was going to reply with a long list of modern day religious atrocities to try and prove my point that the world would be better off without religion. 
Then, I started thinking about the root cause. At least what I, a humble atheist, think the root cause to be.
I will try to sum it up as best I can.
The world would be better off if filled with folks that didn't need religion. 
The fact that the only reason some folks don't go on a raping, robbing,  and murdering spree, is because of fear of retribution after their death, scares me. The fact that so many folks long for the end of time and the destruction of earth. When so many wait for a better life instead of making their life better. 
I wish everyone was born with empathy, self discipline, and love for all living things. Then, perhaps we all could be truly 'tolerant'.

To paraphrase a famous quote: "I don't have a problem with God, it's his fan club."


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## jmharris23 (Mar 18, 2016)

WaltL1 said:


> Originally you said better off without Christians and that's what I was commenting on.
> As for being better off without religion....
> Maybe?
> I cant think of anything else  that since the beginning until right now has divided more people the way religion has.
> ...



Walt, I'm thinking you're hearing something I am not saying or else I am not being clear? 

You can't have Christians without Christianity and there's no Christianity without religion. 

I completely agree that disagreement does not equal hate. 

Did something I say make you think that? I have lots of friends who aren't believers and even more friends who I don't agree with on many subjects.


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## jmharris23 (Mar 18, 2016)

660griz said:


> I was going to reply with a long list of modern day religious atrocities to try and prove my point that the world would be better off without religion.
> Then, I started thinking about the root cause. At least what I, a humble atheist, think the root cause to be.
> I will try to sum it up as best I can.
> The world would be better off if filled with folks that didn't need religion.
> ...




I always wonder when people talk about all the atrocities done in the name of religion. 

Have their not been just as many or I would argue more atrocities committed by the irreligious? Hitler, Stalin, Kim-Jong Il, Idi Amin, Lenin


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## jmharris23 (Mar 18, 2016)

Barouque Brass said:


> Oh, but it does! I know of a very devout, wealthy man who was new to town and asked me for bank recommendations. He chose a bank and deposited what I suspect to be a large sum of money. Later, after learning that the bank president is an athiest, he withdrew all of his money and closed all accounts with the bank. I can give many more examples. Of the Christians I know, many will do their best to not associate with an athiest, believing them to be inherently evil people.




I didn't say it doesn't happen....I still maintain that most Christians don't operate that way. 

I know lots of Atheists who have much vitriol toward Christians but in no way do I think that most atheists hate me because of my beliefs.


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## jmharris23 (Mar 18, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> There are many unbelievers that I shun. I avoid them like the plague. This is a biblical principle in some cases.



Wow...not sure what to say to this. I hope we're just thinking about two different issues. 

 I feel like Christ taught us pretty clearly how to deal with unbelievers. 

I was an unbeliever when He dealt with me....and I sure am glad He didn't decide to shun me.


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## welderguy (Mar 18, 2016)

As followers of Christ,we must never forget that our "warfare" is not against flesh and blood. The fellow that is disagreeing with us or even the one who is actively seeking to hurt us,whether it be with his words or with physical means,he is really not the true adversary.It is that which is influencing and driving him to do those things that is the true enemy.

Because of this,we can still love them and do good to them,in spite of their contrariness.Understand,however,that love is not always defined as a warm fuzzy feeling for someone.And often,just leaving the person to themselves is the most loving thing to do.


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## StriperrHunterr (Mar 18, 2016)

I think the world would benefit from more self-ownership and responsibility instead of being able to credit successes to God and failures to da debil. 

If the only conclusion is "I did that" then most people would straighten themselves up. It doesn't take God, it just takes willpower. You'd still have the standard deviations of evil people doing evil things because it's their nature, and you'd still have good people doing good things because it's their nature as well. Those of us in the middle, and yes I include myself in the "grays" would be left with our struggles and having to face the mirror for our transgressions.


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## ambush80 (Mar 18, 2016)

welderguy said:


> As followers of Christ,we must never forget that our "warfare" is not against flesh and blood. The fellow that is disagreeing with us or even the one who is actively seeking to hurt us,whether it be with his words or with physical means,he is really not the true adversary.It is that which is influencing and driving him to do those things that is the true enemy.
> 
> Because of this,we can still love them and do good to them,in spite of their contrariness.Understand,however,that love is not always defined as a warm fuzzy feeling for someone.And often,just leaving the person to themselves is the most loving thing to do.



Do you even know what you're saying?  If you do then why don't you just go ahead and say it.  Don't beat around the bush.

"Non-believers and believers of other religions are under the influence of Satan and are doing his evil bidding."

Do you understand what happens when you think of other people in those terms?


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## jmharris23 (Mar 18, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Do you even know what you're saying?  If you do then why don't you just go ahead and say it.  Don't beat around the bush.
> 
> "Non-believers and believers of other religions are under the influence of Satan and are doing his evil bidding."
> 
> Do you understand what happens when you think of other people in those terms?



No....tell us please


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## 660griz (Mar 18, 2016)

jmharris23 said:


> I always wonder when people talk about all the atrocities done in the name of religion.
> 
> Have their not been just as many or I would argue more atrocities committed by the irreligious? Hitler, Stalin, Kim-Jong Il, Idi Amin, Lenin



Ah yes. The ol, atheist atrocities argument. I was actually trying to avoid that...for Christians sake.
You could argue, most Christians do, but, you would be wrong. Conflating atheism with communist regimes and then claiming the atrocities committed by those regimes is somehow the fault of atheism is an intellectual shell game that has no real validity. 
First, it is a bad analogy. Folks committing heinous acts for the sake of their God is not the same as folks committing heinous acts because they are just heinous and power hungry. Nothing about atheism could lead someone to do those things.
Sadam Hussein killed lots of folks, and he was religious, but, I doubt religion had anything to do with it. He was just a low life of a man. 

Hitler was not an atheist. Actually, his hatred for Jews could be traced to the Bible.

"Stalin, merely tore the existing religious labels off the Christian Inquisition, the enforcement of Christian orthodoxy, the Crusades, the praising of the priesthood, messianism, and Edenic ideas of a terrestrial religious-styled utopia, and re-branded them with the red of communism.  Had this Christian machine not been in place, then it is more than likely Stalin wouldn’t have had the vehicle he needed to succeed in causing so much suffering in the name of his godless religion, Communism."

To quote Hitchens:

For Joseph Stalin, who had trained to be a priest in a seminary in Georgia, the whole thing was ultimately a question of power. “How many divisions,” he famously and stupidly inquired, “has the pope?” (The true answer to his boorish sarcasm was, “More than you think.”) Stalin then pedantically repeated the papal routine of making science conform to dogma, by insisting that the shaman and charlatan Trofim Lysenko had disclosed the key to genetics and promised extra harvests of specially inspired vegetables. (Millions of innocents died of gnawing internal pain as a consequence of this “revelation.”) This Caesar unto whom all things were dutifully rendered took care, as his regime became a more nationalist and statist one, to maintain at least a puppet church that could attach its traditional appeal to his.


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## jmharris23 (Mar 18, 2016)

660griz said:


> Ah yes. The ol, atheist atrocities argument. I was actually trying to avoid that...for Christians sake.
> You could argue, most Christians do, but, you would be wrong. Conflating atheism with communist regimes and then claiming the atrocities committed by those regimes is somehow the fault of atheism is an intellectual shell game that has no real validity.
> First, it is a bad analogy. Folks committing heinous acts for the sake of their God is not the same as folks committing heinous acts because they are just heinous and power hungry. Nothing about atheism could lead someone to do those things.
> Sadam Hussein killed lots of folks, and he was religious, but, I doubt religion had anything to do with it. He was just a low life of a man.
> ...



Well all I can say is this, and I know upfront that you will most likely scoff at it, but I'll say it anyway. 

There are Christians and there are "Christians." 

We're never gonna agree on this, and I'm a fool for entering the fray in here every time I do it. 

But thanks for the conversation.


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## StriperrHunterr (Mar 18, 2016)

jmharris23 said:


> Well all I can say is this, and I know upfront that you will most likely scoff at it, but I'll say it anyway.
> 
> There are Christians and there are "Christians."
> 
> ...



I hear what you're saying, but that feels like when I was back in the Army. Everywhere we went, "Wait until you get into the _real_ Army, these kinds of goat ropes aren't tolerated..."

Granted I was only in for 3 years, but I know guys who spent entire careers hearing that and were somehow never in the "real" Army. 

But if we keep delineating Christians from "Christians" and they likely do it to you as well, see above about those that hate the sin but love the sinner, those who cut out relations with all atheists, etc., you eventually have to consider no one to be an absolute true Christian. At least in human terms, and since that's all we have to go on, especially as outsiders to the faith, that's the logical result.


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## rjcruiser (Mar 18, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Do you even know what you're saying?  If you do then why don't you just go ahead and say it.  Don't beat around the bush.
> 
> "Non-believers and believers of other religions are under the influence of Satan and are doing his evil bidding."
> 
> Do you understand what happens when you think of other people in those terms?



Hmm...don't believe in God...but reference being under the influence of Satan and KAPOW.  So...you think Satan is a pretty evil guy?



jmharris23 said:


> No....tell us please



I'm curious as well.


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## welderguy (Mar 18, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Do you even know what you're saying?  If you do then why don't you just go ahead and say it.  Don't beat around the bush.
> 
> "Non-believers and believers of other religions are under the influence of Satan and are doing his evil bidding."
> 
> Do you understand what happens when you think of other people in those terms?



Here's what I'm saying(no bush beating).We are all rotten to the core,in and of ourselves.If anyone thinks differently,they are thinking too highly of themselves.

Religion or no religion,we are all on the same level.It's when people start thinking they are superior(pride),that's when they do the horrible things to others.

The bible does not teach it's readers to do that,rather the opposite.


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## 660griz (Mar 18, 2016)

jmharris23 said:


> Well all I can say is this, and I know upfront that you will most likely scoff at it, but I'll say it anyway.
> 
> There are Christians and there are "Christians."
> 
> ...



You are welcome. 
I am all scoffed out.  I do wonder, why there was no comment on my actual answer to the question but, you chose to comment on the non-answer.


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## StriperrHunterr (Mar 18, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Here's what I'm saying(no bush beating).We are all rotten to the core,in and of ourselves.If anyone thinks differently,they are thinking too highly of themselves.
> 
> Religion or no religion,we are all on the same level.It's when people start thinking they are superior(pride),that's when they do the horrible things to others.
> 
> The bible does not teach it's readers to do that,rather the opposite.



What about a baby, other than the obvious joke, makes it rotten to the core? What has it done or is capable of to deserve that distinction?


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## 660griz (Mar 18, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Here's what I'm saying(no bush beating).We are all rotten to the core,in and of ourselves.If anyone thinks differently,they are thinking too highly of themselves.



Guilty. I think pretty highly of myself. I wish more folks would try it. Self-loathing is just not my thing.
That doesn't mean I don't try to improve.


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## rjcruiser (Mar 18, 2016)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> I hear what you're saying, but that feels like when I was back in the Army. Everywhere we went, "Wait until you get into the _real_ Army, these kinds of goat ropes aren't tolerated..."
> 
> Granted I was only in for 3 years, but I know guys who spent entire careers hearing that and were somehow never in the "real" Army.
> 
> But if we keep delineating Christians from "Christians" and they likely do it to you as well, see above about those that hate the sin but love the sinner, those who cut out relations with all atheists, etc., you eventually have to consider no one to be an absolute true Christian. At least in human terms, and since that's all we have to go on, especially as outsiders to the faith, that's the logical result.



Since this is an outdoor website, think of it in terms of hunting.

There are hunters....and then there are "hunters."  Sure...you've got the guys that go opening day every year....grab that safe queen that was passed down from their granddaddy....stop by Wal Mart and grab a box of the most expensive Hornady ammo...have breakfast at the WH on the way to the club....and sit in the stand for the morning with their buddy heater...and hopefully shoot the deer that walks out...and calls it a season because of other priorities and commitments...never going again until "next opening day."

Are they a hunter?  I guess.

But then you have those that scout...plant food plots...put out cameras...bow hunt...gun hunt...small game hunt (to find sheds)...and go every weekend.

Who is the true hunter?


Same with Christians.  You've got those that go once a year to church on Easter, have that suit/tie that comes out once a year, grab their Bible that was passed down from Granddaddy and comes off the shelf for that one occasion....talk the talk of religion...but day in and day out, have no clue what it means to live like Christ.


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## rjcruiser (Mar 18, 2016)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> What about a baby, other than the obvious joke, makes it rotten to the core? What has it done or is capable of to deserve that distinction?



Well...let me tell ya, the baby in WalMart the other day was rotten to the core.  Screaming...pitching a fit.  I asked the mom....who taught her how to do that...and she said...she learned it on her own.


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## 660griz (Mar 18, 2016)

rjcruiser said:


> Who is the true hunter?



I'll go with...they both are. 
Not being judgmental in this case. I don't know what responsibilities outside of their hobby either have. To label someone not a true hunter because they have to struggle more to provide a roof over the head of their family is just not me. 
The only way I can think of to determine a true hunter would be to get inside their mind. Not by how much time or money they spend doing it. But, that's just me.


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## rjcruiser (Mar 18, 2016)

660griz said:


> I do wonder, why there was no comment on my actual answer to the question but, you chose to comment on the non-answer.



I scanned through the thread...so your comment above made me go back and re-read your post.  I'll try and answer.



660griz said:


> Conflating atheism with communist regimes and then claiming the atrocities committed by those regimes is somehow the fault of atheism is an intellectual shell game that has no real validity.



I think that your sentence above is valid.  Atheism isn't the problem with these regimes...but to be intellectually fair, religion isn't the problem either.  At the core of every example was a man who was driven to increase in power, wealth and influence.  The vehicle used in some cases was communism.  In others, religion....and in some cases....a warped view of christianity.

I'll further what JMHarris said.  Biblical Christianity is not based on self-promotion....but rather humility.  It is why Christ said "blessed are the poor in spirit."  It's why the Apostle Paul said "regard others as more important than yourself."


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## Havana Dude (Mar 18, 2016)

jmharris23 said:


> I'm not going to disagree with you, at least completely.
> 
> I also agree that no believer should shun an unbeliever, but I'm not sure that happens a lot anyway.



If shunning you is wrong........I don't want to be right...........

Couldn't resist. There are many believers I shun as well, not just non-believers.


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## rjcruiser (Mar 18, 2016)

660griz said:


> I'll go with...they both are.
> Not being judgmental in this case. I don't know what responsibilities outside of their hobby either have. To label someone not a true hunter because they have to struggle more to provide a roof over the head of their family is just not me.
> The only way I can think of to determine a true hunter would be to get inside their mind. Not by how much time or money they spend doing it. But, that's just me.



Interesting...you can discern that "priorities and commitments" mean "provide a roof over the head of their family" but can't discern that one's time and efforts determine their actions.

Seems like you'll go out of your way to believe "the best" for this hunter, but when it comes to religion, you're quick to condemn (ie Hitler's genocide was based on religion).  Isn't that hypocritical?


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## welderguy (Mar 18, 2016)

660griz said:


> Guilty. I think pretty highly of myself. I wish more folks would try it. Self-loathing is just not my thing.
> That doesn't mean I don't try to improve.



At least you admit it.That's the first step to humility.
Second step would be to put others before yourself(with unselfish motives).You may already practice that as well,only you know.


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## 660griz (Mar 18, 2016)

rjcruiser said:


> I scanned through the thread...so your comment above made me go back and re-read your post.  I'll try and answer.


 Thanks. I was actually talking about the OP. I answered the question about no religions/world better off, etc. and got a response related to atheist and atrocities.




> I think that your sentence above is valid.  Atheism isn't the problem with these regimes...but to be intellectually fair, religion isn't the problem either.  At the core of every example was a man who was driven to increase in power, wealth and influence.  The vehicle used in some cases was communism.  In others, religion....and in some cases....a warped view of christianity.



I agree with you. I think bad folks will use any excuse they can get. The Bible was used to justify slavery. We all know the real reason, money. The problem comes from, and this goes for all religions, is when good folks stand around and nod their heads in agreement instead of standing for what is right.


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## StriperrHunterr (Mar 18, 2016)

rjcruiser said:


> Since this is an outdoor website, think of it in terms of hunting.
> 
> There are hunters....and then there are "hunters."  Sure...you've got the guys that go opening day every year....grab that safe queen that was passed down from their granddaddy....stop by Wal Mart and grab a box of the most expensive Hornady ammo...have breakfast at the WH on the way to the club....and sit in the stand for the morning with their buddy heater...and hopefully shoot the deer that walks out...and calls it a season because of other priorities and commitments...never going again until "next opening day."
> 
> ...



Both are real hunters, in their own ways. As both are believers in their own way. I'm not the one trying to say they aren't, it's an internal characterization within the religion that's doing it. 

I'm just saying that from the outside it gives the appearance, like the "real" Army, that there is no such thing.


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## 660griz (Mar 18, 2016)

rjcruiser said:


> Interesting...you can discern that "priorities and commitments" mean "provide a roof over the head of their family" but can't discern that one's time and efforts determine their actions.


 I didn't discern anything. I thought I made it clear that I didn't know.



> Seems like you'll go out of your way to believe "the best" for this hunter, but when it comes to religion, you're quick to condemn (ie Hitler's genocide was based on religion).  Isn't that hypocritical?


One is documented, one isn't.

I am not quick to condemn. I am actually VERY slow to condemn. I condemn Hitler for his documented actions. Some folks, to this day, don't condemn him. I condemn them to being idiots. 
 His motivation is of no consequence to me. I only bring up the documented facts when falsehoods are given. Like, he was an atheist.


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## StriperrHunterr (Mar 18, 2016)

rjcruiser said:


> Well...let me tell ya, the baby in WalMart the other day was rotten to the core.  Screaming...pitching a fit.  I asked the mom....who taught her how to do that...and she said...she learned it on her own.



So a baby screaming and pitching a fit makes the baby a sinner?


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## rjcruiser (Mar 18, 2016)

660griz said:


> Thanks. I was actually talking about the OP. I answered the question about no religions/world better off, etc. and got a response related to atheist and atrocities.



Problem is...without religion, I think we lose where our moral right and wrong come from.  But...I understand...you'll disagree.  and we don't need to debate that.




660griz said:


> I agree with you. I think bad folks will use any excuse they can get. The Bible was used to justify slavery. We all know the real reason, money. The problem comes from, and this goes for all religions, is when good folks stand around and nod their heads in agreement instead of standing for what is right.


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## rjcruiser (Mar 18, 2016)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> So a baby screaming and pitching a fit makes the baby a sinner?



Who said anything about sin? 

Are you saying pitching a fit and screaming is sin?


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## 660griz (Mar 18, 2016)

welderguy said:


> At least you admit it.That's the first step to humility.
> Second step would be to put others before yourself(with unselfish motives).You may already practice that as well,only you know.



Wait a minute. Are there 12 steps?  

Honestly, I don't know if I do step two. I don't mark down or otherwise keep track of when I put others before myself. I may do it. I may not. I am pretty selfish and pretty generous so, tough one.


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## rjcruiser (Mar 18, 2016)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Both are real hunters, in their own ways. As both are believers in their own way. I'm not the one trying to say they aren't, it's an internal characterization within the religion that's doing it.
> 
> I'm just saying that from the outside it gives the appearance, like the "real" Army, that there is no such thing.



I guess the difference is that Christianity has a manual that gives direction as to what makes a person a Christian and what doesn't.  It also gives examples and behaviors of Christians and tells Christians to discern between the two.

So...analogies will help...but there are always going to be minor differences that can be picked apart.



660griz said:


> I didn't discern anything. I thought I made it clear that I didn't know.



I hear ya...and we'll just agree to disagree.  As I said above...you can pick a part analogies because they're just that....a feeble attempt to liken one thing to another.

It is always interesting to see how others who believe very differently to you think.  I enjoy the debate and this one has been kept civil (at least I think it has been  ), which makes it even more enjoyable.

Time for me to get back to responsibilities...y'all have fun.


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## jmharris23 (Mar 18, 2016)

660griz said:


> You are welcome.
> I am all scoffed out.  I do wonder, why there was no comment on my actual answer to the question but, you chose to comment on the non-answer.



The reason that I guess I didn't comment is that we are coming at this from two view points so radically different, that to continue to comment back and forth is probably a poor use of time for both us. 

Just so I can be clear...I appreciate that you have your own opinions and understanding, and have no issues with anyone who thinks differently than me except that I think you're wrong. As you do I. 

Regardless of what some might think....I have no problem with that.


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## StriperrHunterr (Mar 18, 2016)

rjcruiser said:


> I guess the difference is that Christianity has a manual that gives direction as to what makes a person a Christian and what doesn't.  It also gives examples and behaviors of Christians and tells Christians to discern between the two.
> 
> So...analogies will help...but there are always going to be minor differences that can be picked apart.



But you're also not supposed to judge, all while loving thy neighbor. Then there's the matter of all people being sinners, according to the book, and glass houses and such. 

I think there's plenty in that book that would imply a prohibition on denying others claims to being a Christian, since you're, again according to the book, innately a flawed one in and of yourself.


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## Israel (Mar 18, 2016)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> But you're also not supposed to judge, all while loving thy neighbor. Then there's the matter of all people being sinners, according to the book, and glass houses and such.
> 
> I think there's plenty in that book that would imply a prohibition on denying others claims to being a Christian, since you're, again according to the book, innately a flawed one in and of yourself.



Almost everything I have learned...if I have learned anything, I must say...I didn't set out to. Oh, I have (I think) made decisions...done things, put myself in places for "my" reasons (again, so I think), and being in those places...then had LESSONS thrust upon me, not things bidden, by any means...and an observer might say "but when you put your foot down on that path...LESSONS were inevitable..." So it is. The man intending to do nothing more than put up some Christmas lights...suddenly gets a lesson in coefficients of friction and ladder treads on a misty morning and the effects of gravity, and momentum...and so it goes.
But, just as surely...there are "happy accidents". Here's one. 
My grandkids (grandaughter and husband) decided to run down I-95 to Jacksonville Zoo on Sunday, taking the great grandbabies. What fun.
Tuesday, at work I get a text...Jasmine (the granddaughter) had to take "my" van to work cause she had no brakes. (on the Zoo trip vehicle)
She found this out going down our pretty deserted country road in the am...came back, and grabbed the van. (Grandpa will take a look when he gets home...)

Yep, came home early to work on her vehicle...pedal just floats to floor. Put in fluid...again...floats to floor...but no puddle immediately seen. Then...whoosh, Lake Dot 3 appears under back wheel...Eureka!

Take off wheel and...the pic is worth a thousand words.
But here's the thing...she had new pads sitting in her trunk...for I don't know how long. Her husband she said, knew they needed to be done...and just hadn't gotten around yet to doing it. 

(My wife says...you really need to have a talk with them...about this...and the need to pay attention to certain things)

So, I put on my preaching robes, bring the rotor into their bedroom, call the meeting to order and my granddaughter says "what's that"? I explain...what it is, what it is to do, what it "should" look like...and then briefly expound upon momentum, and being in unstoppable cars, (Like on I-95 ...with your babies). 

They listen, they nod, they...seem to be...polite. They are probably glad I am fixing it, they don't really say...but I realize...profoundly...they don't get it. But...really, I am not sure just what they are supposed to get. 

Am I to saddle them with the things I have seen? Of legs torn off bodies and muscles hanging like pale filleted steaks?...of dull fixed eyes...and the sounds of ventilators...I mean...what can I say? I can be grateful...that even if I have seen these things, to what end could I ever make them understand...what has gone into "me"...that makes this picture in its fright only exceeded by one thing...Gratitude.

And maybe, it's perfect they have no idea...as much as I might think its value to drum into them "what could happen". But, it didn't. You see, they just don't know what I know...and yet even what I do know about cars slamming into slowed or stopped Semi's at 60 or 70 mph...they aren't supposed to know...because if they were supposed to...they would. I realize...my preaching is useless here.
But I do know...this. After I took off my preaching robes and redonned my coveralls and went back to where pads akimbo found and a caliper that had completely pushed its piston out its cylinder. I was deeply grateful. I also did not have to have a LESSON thrust upon me, and so, it's very good I don't try and do that with others. 

And I am grateful to the Orderer of my life.


So, when you and I meet and we may disagree...as to what needs paying attention to...you'd perhaps be right to say "you seem silly, you just don't know what I know"...but realize what is inherent in the saying of that.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 18, 2016)

jmharris23 said:


> Wow...not sure what to say to this. I hope we're just thinking about two different issues.


I only addressed the issue that involved me. You said that I should not shun an unbeliever. Perhaps you are focused on a negative connotation in regard to the definition of "shun". Please keep in mind that I did not say that I shun all unbelievers, but there are many that I do. The Bible tells me what type of individual to shun.


jmharris23 said:


> I feel like Christ taught us pretty clearly how to deal with unbelievers.
> 
> I was an unbeliever when He dealt with me....and I sure am glad He didn't decide to shun me.


I see this as a different issue. Christ also said when to shake the dust off.


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## rjcruiser (Mar 18, 2016)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> But you're also not supposed to judge, all while loving thy neighbor. Then there's the matter of all people being sinners, according to the book, and glass houses and such.
> 
> I think there's plenty in that book that would imply a prohibition on denying others claims to being a Christian, since you're, again according to the book, innately a flawed one in and of yourself.



Can you tell me where it says not to judge?  And where it says or implies denying false prophets is wrong?

And before you quote Matt 7:1, read Matt 7:5b.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 18, 2016)

rjcruiser said:


> Can you tell me where it says not to judge?  And where it says or implies denying false prophets is wrong?
> 
> And before you quote Matt 7:1, read Matt 7:5b.



Romans 2:1-3
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.
2And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?


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## ambush80 (Mar 19, 2016)

Israel said:


> Almost everything I have learned...if I have learned anything, I must say...I didn't set out to. Oh, I have (I think) made decisions...done things, put myself in places for "my" reasons (again, so I think), and being in those places...then had LESSONS thrust upon me, not things bidden, by any means...and an observer might say "but when you put your foot down on that path...LESSONS were inevitable..." So it is. The man intending to do nothing more than put up some Christmas lights...suddenly gets a lesson in coefficients of friction and ladder treads on a misty morning and the effects of gravity, and momentum...and so it goes.
> But, just as surely...there are "happy accidents". Here's one.
> My grandkids (grandaughter and husband) decided to run down I-95 to Jacksonville Zoo on Sunday, taking the great grandbabies. What fun.
> Tuesday, at work I get a text...Jasmine (the granddaughter) had to take "my" van to work cause she had no brakes. (on the Zoo trip vehicle)
> ...




That must have made some kind of racket for a while.


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## rjcruiser (Mar 19, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 2:1-3
> You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.
> 2And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?



Did you read what you posted?  That doesn't say not to judge...it merely says that if you judge othersfor the same thingsyou do, you won't escape God's judgment. 

Try again.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 19, 2016)

rjcruiser said:


> Did you read what you posted?  That doesn't say not to judge...it merely says that if you judge othersfor the same thingsyou do, you won't escape God's judgment.
> 
> Try again.



thou condemnest thyself; by judging them:

for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

What Paul is explaining is that we are all equally as guilty. There is none without sin. We all do the same things by sinning. 
Paul explains this in 1 Corinthians 6:11 also;
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

From the "Pulpit Commentary" on Romans 2:1
"It might be said that there are many still who disapprove of all this wickedness, and sit in judgment on it, and who are, therefore, not themselves implicated in the guilt. To such persons the apostle now turns, his purpose being to show that their judging others does not exempt themselves, unless they can show that they are themselves sinless. All, he argues, are tainted with sin, and therefore implicated in the guilt of the human race, while the very fact of their judging others condemns them all the more."

http://biblehub.com/romans/2-1.htm


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 19, 2016)

I'll bet a lot of people reading Romans 1 are filled with pride and how good they are until they read Romans 2:1. Paul kinda cuts one down to size to show us we are equally as guilty.

"You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else."
Doesn't that sound familiar? Such as in Romans 1:20;
"so that they are without excuse"

Paul shows us in Romans 1, these really terribly wicked evil perverts who worship idols for the sole purpose of letting us know that we are such as them. Even though we are a fairly decent, nice, and helpful bunch. 

I myself am guilty of passing judgement. I'm a fairly decent and honest man. I've never cheated on my wife with another woman. I've never exchanged hetero sex for gay sex. I've never worshiped idols made in the image of animals with legs and wings.

But I have passed judgement. I'm without excuse.


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## Israel (Mar 20, 2016)

So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

Can it be the "righteous judgment" is that adjudged in mercy? Not in excuse...not in indulgence...but with mercy as the pole star?

A thing may be "wrong" in our sight, and we are troubled. Will our first response be to distance...or a pressing to "come along side"? We don't accept the "thing"...but, do we seek a key there, for a person, to help unlock...or do we simply shake our heads and leave them to bondage?

I have seen what One, and others "of that One", have shown me in my bondage, and I trust we have all tasted the "other response".

Which, really...do we prefer? What are we _moved to_, and by?

It would fall short, were I not to confess, that when moved to seek a key "for that one in bondage", I find a key...that unlocks another (me) who has known a bondage, so that there is no glorying but in the Lord.
I have not done a "good" thing...I have been pressed to "save myself"...by my Savior.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 20, 2016)

"And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

Which Christians are in that book? The one's judged for their deeds or the ones who believe Jesus died for their deeds?

We are all equally as guilty, none of us have an excuse. We are equally as guilty in sinning and we are equally as guilty in judging.

We were once like them. The only difference being, we were washed. Our names are in the "Book of Life."


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## ambush80 (Mar 20, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
> 
> Which Christians are in that book? The one's judged for their deeds or the ones who believe Jesus died for their deeds?
> 
> ...




Don't you mean "Your name was written in the Book of Life before the beginning of time"?


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## ambush80 (Mar 20, 2016)

By the way, this discussion is no longer Apologetic.


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## Israel (Mar 30, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> That must have made some kind of racket for a while.



Yes, my step daughter, said later, after following her daughter's car  "gee, I wonder what's making all that noise". And I am also without excuse in it. Could have investigated sooner a "rub" I once heard...


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## 660griz (Mar 30, 2016)

Israel said:


> Yes, my step daughter, said later, after following her daughter's car  "gee, I wonder what's making all that noise". And I am also without excuse in it. Could have investigated sooner a "rub" I once heard...



My truck developed a vibration at around 65 mph. Over 200k miles so, I figured it was U joints. Took it in and told them to change the brakes while they were at it. Picked it up at around closing time the next day. 
Started driving home and nearly had a Prius as a hood ornament. The next morning ended up stopped half way in an intersection. Brakes felt like they had air in the system. ABS couldn't even be activated. 
I called them up and they explained that they didn't open the brake system. Makes sense but, it was dangerous to drive. Took it back and they drove it and explained that they have another shop turn the rotors. Seems they turned them wrong. Didn't know that was possible. Anyway, they put all new rotors on with their dime.


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## StriperrHunterr (Mar 30, 2016)

Israel said:


> Almost everything I have learned...if I have learned anything, I must say...I didn't set out to. Oh, I have (I think) made decisions...done things, put myself in places for "my" reasons (again, so I think), and being in those places...then had LESSONS thrust upon me, not things bidden, by any means...and an observer might say "but when you put your foot down on that path...LESSONS were inevitable..." So it is. The man intending to do nothing more than put up some Christmas lights...suddenly gets a lesson in coefficients of friction and ladder treads on a misty morning and the effects of gravity, and momentum...and so it goes.
> But, just as surely...there are "happy accidents". Here's one.
> My grandkids (grandaughter and husband) decided to run down I-95 to Jacksonville Zoo on Sunday, taking the great grandbabies. What fun.
> Tuesday, at work I get a text...Jasmine (the granddaughter) had to take "my" van to work cause she had no brakes. (on the Zoo trip vehicle)
> ...



I may say an idea is silly, but anyone attempting honest adult conversation will never be called such by me. 





rjcruiser said:


> Can you tell me where it says not to judge?  And where it says or implies denying false prophets is wrong?
> 
> And before you quote Matt 7:1, read Matt 7:5b.



I did, and I'm well aware of my own shortcomings. Gluttony would definitely be the sin that gets me. Sloth may be as well, but that's due more to the condition of my knees than any desired laziness. 

The point being is that in both verses judging is frowned upon. Take the plank out of your own eye before going after anothers, and such. 



rjcruiser said:


> Did you read what you posted?  That doesn't say not to judge...it merely says that if you judge othersfor the same thingsyou do, you won't escape God's judgment.
> 
> Try again.



Isn't the entire goal of a Christian life to live it in such a way to minimize such judgement? I.e. go forth and sin no more? You seem like you're making the argument that sin, and in this case proscribed judgment, is okay so long as you know the consequences. 

I may have that wrong though, so please feel free to clarify. 

If it seems like I'm sniping, rest assured that I'm not, I'm just reading the verses and the opinions in here and they're not congruent.


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