# Why We hate You and Why We Fight You



## ambush80 (Aug 18, 2016)

In the latest issue of _Dabiq_, the ISIS propaganda magazine there is an article called "Why We Hate You and Why We Fight You".  They list 6 reasons why they hate us and why they fight us.  Number 3 is :

_3. 
In the case of the atheist fringe, we hate you 
and  wage  war  against  you  because  you  disbelieve  in  
the  existence  of  your  Lord  and  Creator.  You  witness  
the extraordinarily complex makeup of created beings, 
and the astonishing and inexplicably precise physical 
laws  that  govern  the  entire  universe,  but  insist  that  
they all came about through randomness and that one 
should  be  faulted,  mocked,  and  ostracized  for  recognizing that  the  astonishing  
signs we witness day after day 
are  the  creation  of  the  Wise,  
All-Knowing  Creator  and  not  
the  result  of  accidental  occurrence.  “Or  were  they  created  
by  nothing,  or  were  they  the  
creators [of themselves]?” (At-
Tur 35). Your disbelief in your 
Creator  further  leads  you  to  
deny  the  Day  of  Judgment,  
claiming  that  “you  only  live  
once.”  “Those  who  disbelieve  
have claimed that they will never be resurrected. Say, ‘Yes, by 
my Lord, you will surely be resurrected; then you will surely 
be  informed  of  what  you  did.  
And  that,  for  Allah,  is  easy’”  
(At-Taghabun  7)._

It's interesting that their reasons for rejecting Atheism are the same as those of all the Abrahamic religions.  They just happen to want to kill us over it.

Sam Harris discusses this article with dire clarity in his latest podcast.  I can't link it because he swears a little.  If anybody decides to listen to it, I'd love to discuss it.


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## 660griz (Aug 18, 2016)

I reckon hunting and fishing sucks over there. 

_that one 
should be faulted, mocked, and ostracized _

That's just not true. I don't believe they should be ostracized.


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## ambush80 (Aug 18, 2016)

660griz said:


> I reckon hunting and fishing sucks over there.
> 
> _that one
> should be faulted, mocked, and ostracized _
> ...




I think Christians feel like they could make the same claim.


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## welderguy (Aug 18, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> I think Christians feel like they could make the same claim.



Not me.If a person doesn't believe,it's because they have not had their eyes opened.I don't hate them for that.My heart goes out to them and hope they will be changed.


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## ambush80 (Aug 18, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Not me.If a person doesn't believe,it's because they have not had their eyes opened.I don't hate them for that.My heart goes out to them and hope they will be changed.



You missed the point.

I was saying that Christians might feel (like the Islamists) that they are being faulted, mocked, and ostracized.


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## welderguy (Aug 18, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> You missed the point.
> 
> I was saying that Christians might feel (like the Islamists) that they are being faulted, mocked, and ostracized.



Oh.In that case then I would agree in many cases.


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## ambush80 (Aug 18, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Oh.In that case then I would agree in many cases.



You all have much in common.


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## welderguy (Aug 18, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> You all have much in common.



In passion,maybe.
In peace,not at all.


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## ambush80 (Aug 18, 2016)

welderguy said:


> In passion,maybe.
> In peace,not at all.



The peaceful ones are the ones that have allowed the doctrines of their holy books to be tempered by modernity and secularism.   It happened to Christians and it can happen to them, too.


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## ambush80 (Aug 18, 2016)

welderguy said:


> In passion,maybe.
> In peace,not at all.



A devout Christian has a better understanding of the mind and heart of a Jihadist than an Atheist.


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## welderguy (Aug 18, 2016)

I can only speak for myself.


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## ambush80 (Aug 18, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I can only speak for myself.




You believe in Paradise.  You believe in He11.    You love your God so much it makes you cry.  They do too.  

I don't.  

You know how they feel better than I do.


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## welderguy (Aug 18, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> You believe in Paradise.  You believe in He11.    You love your God so much it makes you cry.  They do too.
> 
> I don't.
> 
> You know how they feel better than I do.



I do not believe love compels someone to take innocent human lives.That is compelled by a very different source.Agree?


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## ambush80 (Aug 18, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I do not believe love compels someone to take innocent human lives.That is compelled by a very different source.Agree?



Islamists LOVE God.  That's why they chop people's heads off.  Christians chopped off some heads too.

Christianity wasn't always interpreted as being about love.  The interpretation changed.  The words were always the same.

The same thing can happen to Islam.


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## welderguy (Aug 18, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Islamists LOVE God.  That's why they chop people's heads off.  Christians chopped off some heads too.
> 
> Christianity wasn't always interpreted as being about love.  The interpretation changed.  The words were always the same.
> 
> The same thing can happen to Islam.



I agree.But,to know Jesus is to know love.And love does not compel to murder.

Just having the title of Christian does not make you know love.It takes Jesus.period.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 18, 2016)

I think what Ambush is saying that at one time great Christian nations would invade  foreign lands under the pretense of being able to spread the Word of God. Usually it took the lives of innocent people in the process.
It was most definitely the work of the people and not God or at least I hope it was. Then again on the bright side, look how many people converted. 
Look how many slaves are now in Heaven because of Christianity.

We as Christians have changed in the way we interpret what God wants us to do in regards to spreading his Word to the world.

Islam on the other hand has not evolved as far as Christianity in the human rights department. There change is coming slower.

Is it possible that many years from now they will not take Koran verses as literal as they do now? Perhaps learning to get along with other religions. Perhaps giving women equal rights. 
Maybe as they move into countries like the US that doesn't tolerate such behavior.

Develop the attitude that if you want to sell the public booze and motel rooms, try not to kill them so much. It's bad for business.


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## ambush80 (Aug 18, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think what Ambush is saying that at one time great Christian nations would invade  foreign lands under the pretense of being able to spread the Word of God. Usually it took the lives of innocent people in the process.
> It was most definitely the work of the people and not God or at least I hope it was. Then again on the bright side, look how many people converted.
> Look how many slaves are now in Heaven because of Christianity.
> 
> ...



Quite right.  But Art, I'm a bit troubled by your comment on slaves in Heaven.  Did you listen to the Harris podcast?  If you didn't you should.  What you said about the slaves reminds me of the Finnish woman in the podcast.  Take a listen to it and tell me how many similarities you see between the faith of Islamists and Christians.  It's startling.

They need to change their interpretation of their scripture just as Christianity did.


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## welderguy (Aug 18, 2016)

Sounds to me like the Islamics hate atheists worse than Christians.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 18, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Sounds to me like the Islamics hate atheists worse than Christians.



I know you are making light of it but what about? 

Matthew 12:30
"Anyone who isn't with me opposes me, and anyone who isn't working with me is actually working against me.

Islam would see the extreme in this verse and we see compassion. We see our God as persuading this opposing person to follow him.
Our mission would be to show this person the correct path, not to kill them.

So it goes back to how we have progressed in our verse interpretations. We now let women have equal rights. We no longer overtake foreign properties with the cooperation and association of the Church. 

We co-exist as a nation with these individuals that oppose Jesus. They are like enemies but not to the point that we feel the need to kill them. 
We don't feel the need to kill other non-Christian religious individuals unless they are trying to kill us.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 18, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Quite right.  But Art, I'm a bit troubled by your comment on slaves in Heaven.  Did you listen to the Harris podcast?  If you didn't you should.  What you said about the slaves reminds me of the Finnish woman in the podcast.  Take a listen to it and tell me how many similarities you see between the faith of Islamists and Christians.  It's startling.
> 
> They need to change their interpretation of their scripture just as Christianity did.



The comment about slavery was more of a justification I've heard others use than mine. I guess it's like collateral damage such as a Christian nation invading a nation they consider to be Pagan savages. They know that many of the savages will be killed in the process but in the longer run, many souls will be saved over time.

Think of the many Native American souls saved over the years since the European invasion. I'm not saying the justification was right but just a justification used by earlier European Christians.

I haven't watched the podcast. I'll have to watch it.


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## drippin' rock (Aug 18, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> The comment about slavery was more of a justification I've heard others use than mine. I guess it's like collateral damage such as a Christian nation invading a nation they consider to be Pagan savages. They know that many of the savages will be killed in the process but in the longer run, many souls will be saved over time.
> 
> Think of the many American native souls saved over the years since the European invasion. I'm not saying the justification was right but just a justification used by earlier European Christians.
> 
> I haven't watched the podcast. I'll have to watch it.



Funny you mention native Americans. The Islamists in the article Ambush mentioned say they would have killed all the men, made slaves of the women and children, impregnated the women and made the kids model Muslims.  They would have also kept slavery going as a good business practice. 

This podcast(listen, not watch) erased any doubt I had about action needed.  These extremists need to be wiped from the planet by any means nessessary. Now.


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## Israel (Aug 19, 2016)

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.


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## ambush80 (Aug 19, 2016)

Israel said:


> Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.



Do you know what Apologetics means?


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## ambush80 (Aug 19, 2016)

drippin' rock said:


> Funny you mention native Americans. The Islamists in the article Ambush mentioned say they would have killed all the men, made slaves of the women and children, impregnated the women and made the kids model Muslims.  They would have also kept slavery going as a good business practice.
> 
> This podcast(listen, not watch) erased any doubt I had about action needed.  These extremists need to be wiped from the planet by any means nessessary. Now.



I think you brought up slavery in another thread.  I wonder as well what black American Muslims make of _Dabiq_, if they know about it.  I imagine they must think that it's not a proper representation of Muslim values.  Maybe I'll ask one of those guys on the corner and buy a sweet potato pie while I'm at it.


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## welderguy (Aug 19, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Do you know what Apologetics means?



You should ask yourself "would I rather have Israel's sword or the radical muslim's sword?"

The latter only kills the body.


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## PappyHoel (Aug 19, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Oh.In that case then I would agree in many cases.



You just hit his bait.


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## welderguy (Aug 19, 2016)

PappyHoel said:


> You just hit his bait.



Yeah.He's a slick little bugger aint he?


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## ambush80 (Aug 19, 2016)

PappyHoel said:


> You just hit his bait.





welderguy said:


> Yeah.He's a slick little bugger aint he?



You were blind but now you see.


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## ambush80 (Aug 19, 2016)

welderguy said:


> You should ask yourself "would I rather have Israel's sword or the radical muslim's sword?"
> 
> The latter only kills the body.



At one time in the past, his sword and their sword was the same and for the EXACT same reasons.


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## welderguy (Aug 19, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> You were blind but now you see.



AMEN to that!

That has more meaning than you realize.


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## welderguy (Aug 19, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> At one time in the past, his sword and their sword was the same and for the EXACT same reasons.



....but not now.


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## drippin' rock (Aug 19, 2016)

welderguy said:


> ....but not now.



What has changed?


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## ambush80 (Aug 19, 2016)

welderguy said:


> AMEN to that!
> 
> That has more meaning than you realize.


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## gordon 2 (Aug 19, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> The peaceful ones are the ones that have allowed the doctrines of their holy books to be tempered by modernity and secularism.   It happened to Christians and it can happen to them, too.



Are you saying that modernity and secularism is the case that Christians are peaceful?

First off Christians are not peaceful for many reasons even today. They are not peaceful is self defense or duped by politics to spin that they need to fight for " our way of life".

Otherwise  many Christians are peaceful due to beliefs. If modernity and secularism  have contributed anything it is better systems of educations, but not the moral education itself regards war and peace.

 Some powers and greed have always used religion to achieve their goals.  The modern secularist can go to the dark side just as easily and to make a buck

While it is true that some Christians believe today and have in the past believed that not all human beings have the same value--- (as some can be rubbed out, deported and tortured without a oz of guilt and their lands and belonging "occupied ") they are relatively a small minority in the history of Christianity.


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## ambush80 (Aug 19, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> Are you saying that modernity and secularism is the case that Christians are peaceful?
> 
> First off Christians are not peaceful for many reasons even today. They are not peaceful is self defense or duped by politics to spin that they need to fight for " our way of life".
> 
> ...



Nothing can make someone fly a plane into a building or tie their son up for slaughter like religious belief can.  By "nothing" I mean the essence of faith based beliefs, the thing that gives it it's true power.  A state can use that same methods that a traditional religion does to get people to do horrible things, things they couldn't possibly be led to do if there were an overabundance; an explosion, of rationality.

I think of what it would take for me to be convinced of the righteousness of some truly ludicrous proposition.  How could I be  convinced that doing something completely inhuman was righteous.  Rationality might get me there under an extreme circumstance, but belief in the divinity of my cause would without question.   It's the "without question" part that scares me.

Religion can cause you, by edict, by willful adherence, to love your neighbor.  Rationality can lead you to the same place.  The net effect is not the same, psychologically or intellectually.  Surely you can see that.  If I ask my daughter "Why should you be kind to others?", I would prefer that she have a good reason for it, that she understands the inherent value of it, not "Because Daddy said to" or "I want to make Daddy happy".  The inverse is the same. If I ask her "Why is it alright to kill (animals, Jihadist....)?"  I want her to give me  GOOD reasons, not "God said it was OK".


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## ambush80 (Aug 19, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> Are you saying that modernity and secularism is the case that Christians are peaceful?
> 
> First off Christians are not peaceful for many reasons even today. They are not peaceful is self defense or duped by politics to spin that they need to fight for " our way of life".
> 
> ...



The words of the Bible were always the same.  Why did the emphasis move from "eye for an eye" to "love thy neighbor", and why is it just you and not Westboro that understands correctly?  Why does Westboro believe that YOU don't understand it correctly?  Indeed, if you peruse the political forum you will see much desire to exact Old Testament justice.  You want to blame the readers when the problem is the book and all the books of it's kind.

If you ask me, all believers, no matter how they interpret them, are getting from the books exactly what the books are capable of giving.


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## gordon 2 (Aug 19, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Nothing can make someone fly a plane into a building or tie their son up for slaughter like religious belief can.  By "nothing" I mean the essence of faith based beliefs, the thing that gives it it's true power.  A state can use that same methods that a traditional religion does to get people to do horrible things, things they couldn't possibly be led to do if there were an overabundance; an explosion, of rationality.
> 
> I think of what it would take for me to be convinced of the righteousness of some truly ludicrous proposition.  How could I be  convinced that doing something completely inhuman was righteous.  Rationality might get me there under an extreme circumstance, but belief in the divinity of my cause would without question.   It's the "without question" part that scares me.
> 
> Religion can cause you, by edict, by willful adherence, to love your neighbor.  Rationality can lead you to the same place.  The net effect is not the same, psychologically or intellectually.  Surely you can see that.  If I ask my daughter "Why should you be kind to others?", I would prefer that she have a good reason for it, that she understands the inherent value of it, not "Because Daddy said to." or "I want to make Daddy happy".  The inverse is the same. If I ask her "Why is it alright to kill (animals, Jihadist....)?"  I want her to give me  GOOD reasons, not "God said it was OK".



Perhaps but western politics historically( since the 1500's) don't have issues with collateral damage especially ( as the Iraqi will tell you of the British Empire who could easily bomb Bedouin tents ( civilians) as the front lines for example).

 And civilian casualties en masse were used to demoralize the enemy and stop him fighting in much of the 20th century wars on several continents. They were not wars of religion. They were wars of isms and nationality or (patriotism). Religion was secondary to what soldiers and mercenaries were expected to accomplish. Esprit de corp is remarkable. The Devil's Brigade was replenished with men seven times if I recall correct. Suicide missions was just another day.


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## gordon 2 (Aug 19, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> The words of the Bible were always the same.  Why did the emphasis move from "eye for an eye" to "love thy neighbor", and why is it just you and not Westboro that understands correctly?  Why does Westboro believe that YOU don't understand it correctly?  Indeed, if you peruse the political forum you will see much desire to exact Old Testament justice.  You want to blame the readers when the problem is the book and all the books of it's kind.
> 
> If you ask me, all believers, no matter how they interpret them, are getting from the books exactly what the books are capable of giving.




Lots of questions there... but the old covenant regards Isreal was about it's defense from the worldly and itself when it got out of shape.

The new covenant is about citizens acting in the world from a place of security as they no longer need defending as old Isreal did, but are commissioned now to be sober and proactive regards the world. That is to defend others when it is good judgement to do so as the example of old Isreal, but also to promote freedom and liberty always as is the example of the newer covenant.

Jesus basically changed the motivational dynamics of why people do what they do... by being an example of what love can be. Note that to defend others, is also an aspect of love. Christianity points out that although defense is legitamate loving your enemy is also legitamate.

The problem seems to me not people who think like Jesus, but people who think they think along the lines of the   demagogue Presidente or the  demagogue Nationalist Leaders and take it to the next level with passion. These folk will use scripture for their goals--- duping even the elect if that is possible. ( It is.)


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## welderguy (Aug 19, 2016)

drippin' rock said:


> What has changed?



Changed from law to grace.


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## Big7 (Aug 19, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> I think Christians feel like they could make the same claim.



Me thinks Christians should ditch muslim obama and 
wage all out war on the "peaceful religion"

Women and children first. Take out all the breeders, right?
That's what you would do with rats and roaches.
Never leave a breeding pair.

Several times over the centuries, we had the chance
and the means to take them out.. Some of our more liberal, compassionate Christians, 
(Catholics included) let them
go whe they were on the ropes. Look what that got us..

Never leave a breeding pair.
Never leave a breeding pair.
Never leave a breeding pair.

What do you think?


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## stringmusic (Aug 19, 2016)

Big7 said:


> Me thinks Christians should ditch muslim obama and
> wage all out war on the "peaceful religion"
> 
> Women and children first. Take out all the breeders, right?
> ...



You're advocating Christians kill every Muslim on the planet?


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 19, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Changed from law to grace.



I didn't think it changed from law to grace as wasn't it always grace?

Maybe when we became aware that it was always grace.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 19, 2016)

Yet even after Jesus came, many Christians were still living the Old Testament Law for a few centuries. 
The Church continued to be influential in the European expansion as Christianity gained a bigger foothold in European countries.

It has taken Christians a long time to absorb the concept of peace that Jesus was teaching. To do away with slavery. To give women and blacks equal rights. To welcome people of other religions into their countries and societies. To stop taking foreign lands and to return the ones we took or ended up with because of war. 

Basically to move away from a more legalistic way of thinking to a more spiritual way of thinking.

Now, can Islam do that too? I don't know. I don't know if we are willing to give them the time. You can only turn the other cheek so much before you say enough is enough.

I think it would be better if Islam had a messiah to teach them peace and to die for their sins. Maybe then they would have more compassion for infidels.
Or if they could come back as a cow, that might humble them.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 19, 2016)

Big7 said:


> Me thinks Christians should ditch muslim obama and
> wage all out war on the "peaceful religion"
> 
> Women and children first. Take out all the breeders, right?
> ...



I wouldn't consider Catholics to be very liberal and I wouldn't consider Liberals to be very compassionate.


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## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2016)

Big7 said:


> Me thinks Christians should ditch muslim obama and
> wage all out war on the "peaceful religion"
> 
> Women and children first. Take out all the breeders, right?
> ...



He's as Christian as any of you.  Just as ISIS is as Muslim as my nephew.


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## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2016)

stringmusic said:


> You're advocating Christians kill every Muslim on the planet?



The problem isn't him, it's the ridiculous book.  Same with the Muslims.


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## Israel (Aug 20, 2016)

Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If You wish, I will put up three shelters: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” While Peter was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Listen to Him!”…

Lotsa voices. Only one has life in it.


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## hummerpoo (Aug 20, 2016)

If we judged all things by there abuse, we would get rid of BBQ pork steak, sports, scotch whiskey, automobiles, etc.


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## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> If we judged all things by there abuse, we would get rid of BBQ pork steak, sports, scotch whiskey, automobiles, etc.




Some things lend themselves to abuse more than others.  Religion by it's nature is one of the greatest of these.  Worse than whiskey.


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## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2016)

Israel said:


> Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If You wish, I will put up three shelters: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” While Peter was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Listen to Him!”…
> 
> Lotsa voices. Only one has life in it.



....a voice from a cloud.....


Listen to yourself. Your a full grown man.  Start acting like one.


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## Israel (Aug 20, 2016)

In the world you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.


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## Israel (Aug 20, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> ....a voice from a cloud.....
> 
> 
> Listen to yourself. Your a full grown man.  Start acting like one.



The thing of your full grown man is not to me.


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## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2016)

stringmusic said:


> You're advocating Christians kill every Muslim on the planet?




Or convert them to Christianity perhaps?  Sounds familiar.

As a Christian,  if you don't agree with him, why don't you say something?  That goes for all Christians.  Why the silence from the moderates.  "Their silence speaks volumes".  

Do you see now?


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## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2016)

Israel said:


> In the world you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.



"Don't worry. Be happy".

  --Bobby McFerrin


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## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2016)

Israel said:


> The thing of your full grown man is not to me.



..a voice from a cloud.....


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## Israel (Aug 20, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Or convert them to Christianity perhaps?  Sounds familiar.
> 
> As a Christian,  if you don't agree with him, why don't you say something?  That goes for all Christians.  Why the silence from the moderates.  "Their silence speaks volumes".
> 
> Do you see now?



I don't know of christianity.

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=873774


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## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2016)

Israel said:


> I don't know of christianity.
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=873774



You are your own religion.  Congratulations.  You are Deacon, Friar, Inquisitor and Preacher in your very own church.


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## hummerpoo (Aug 20, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> In the latest issue of _Dabiq_, the ISIS propaganda magazine there is an article called "Why We Hate You and Why We Fight You".  They list 6 reasons why they hate us and why they fight us.  Number 3 is :
> 
> _3.
> In the case of the atheist fringe, we hate you
> ...





ambush80 said:


> ....a voice from a cloud.....
> 
> 
> Listen to yourself. Your a full grown man.  Start acting like one.



mocking or ostracism?


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## hummerpoo (Aug 20, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Some things lend themselves to abuse more than others.  Religion by it's nature is one of the greatest of these.  Worse than whiskey.



Opinion; right?


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## Israel (Aug 20, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> You are your own religion.  Congratulations.  You are Deacon, Friar, Inquisitor and Preacher in your very own church.



I have only a very small plot of earth to command and subdue. This command I have been given by my Father.
All those other words, or titles mean nothing here, for here I am just son. And it is so much more than enough.


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## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> mocking or ostracism?



Yes.  You and Islam have much in common.  That's one of the things that's become clear in this thread.

I'm not asking him to leave society.  I'm asking him to grow up, as in leave fairy tales behind.


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## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> Opinion; right?



Just an observation.  

(insert picture of Twin Towers here)


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## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2016)

Hummerpoo,

Are you in agreement with Big7?


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## hummerpoo (Aug 20, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> > Yes.  You and Islam have much in common.  That's one of the things that's become clear in this thread.
> 
> 
> The obvious consistency is a particular attitude toward all who believe in anything supernatural.
> ...





ambush80 said:


> Just an observation.
> 
> (insert picture of Twin Towers here)





ambush80 said:


> Hummerpoo,
> 
> Are you in agreement with Big7?



And that makes three weak attempts at the logical fallacy of guilt by association.


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## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> And that makes three weak attempts at the logical fallacy of guilt by association.



Huh,   so that's what an opinion looks like.


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## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2016)

Mockery?  Because talking clouds are real?

And if you're not in agreement with Big7 why don't you say so?  Why don't you tell him he's giving the rest of you a bad name?  Why aren't there any moderate Muslims speaking out against ISIS?


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## Big7 (Aug 20, 2016)

stringmusic said:


> You're advocating Christians kill every Muslim on the planet?



Just the radicals that fly planes into buildings, drive trucks into crowds. You know, the usual stuff that would make you an enemy that SHOULD be killed.
Women and children first.



Artfuldodger said:


> I wouldn't consider Catholics to be very liberal and I wouldn't consider Liberals to be very compassionate.



Right on both accounts. Thought a little scarcasm would help this thread. Women and children first.



ambush80 said:


> He's as Christian as any of you.  Just as ISIS is as Muslim as my nephew.


I'm more Christian than the one's that beat you over the head with that KJV.. You already know that.



ambush80 said:


> The problem isn't him, it's the ridiculous book.  Same with the Muslims.



You mean the ku'ran, koran, quaroan or how ever you spell it? That would make you right on that.

What do you know about Christians anyway, except you ain't one?

Those ANIMALS kill more Africans and muslims than anyone else. How can you possibly defend that?

Answer: You can't, but you will come up with some rubbish.


----------



## hummerpoo (Aug 20, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Huh,   so that's what an opinion looks like.



I suppose my word "weak" could be considered opinion, as others might consider your statements "good" attempts at guilt by association; but they are weak, in my opinion.



ambush80 said:


> > Mockery?  Because talking clouds are real?
> 
> 
> *Really, feigned failure to understand simple imagery?
> ...


----------



## Israel (Aug 21, 2016)

Dirt and water is given to word as willed. The one who wills this may give whatever he allows as source.

But some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Him, “Teacher, rebuke Your disciples!” “I tell you, He answered, “if they remain silent, the very stones will cry out.”


----------



## Rich Kaminski (Aug 21, 2016)

Any so called religion that teaches killing anyone that does not believe what you believe or insulting a supposed prophet is punishable by death, is not a religion but a cult! Don't blame me if I have to kill you to protect myself!


----------



## bullethead (Aug 21, 2016)

Israel said:


> I have only a very small plot of earth to command and subdue. This command I have been given by my Father.
> All those other words, or titles mean nothing here, for here I am just son. And it is so much more than enough.


But in reality, you still pay your taxes and conform to earthly authority, you just pretend you don't.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 21, 2016)

Rich Kaminski said:


> Any so called religion that teaches killing anyone that does not believe what you believe or insulting a supposed prophet is punishable by death, is not a religion but a cult! Don't blame me if I have to kill you to protect myself!



Exodus 22:20
"Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the LORD must be destroyed."

2 Chronicles 15:13
All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman.

Zechariah 13:3
And if anyone still prophesies, their father and mother, to whom they were born, will say to them, 'You must die, because you have told lies in the LORD's name.' Then their own parents will stab the one who prophesies.

There are many other Old Testament commands to kill non-believers and a host of other sinners. 

Some Christians consider that some folks who commit those sins should be killed today. That they are non-believers just by committing certain sins.

Example;

Leviticus 20:13
"'If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

Some Christians think that just by committing homosexual acts makes one a non-believer that should be killed, even today. At the very least the act makes them a non-believer.

Regardless of what we think "today" or what God commands of us "today, the commands from God did exist at one time.

What this means is Christianity was closer to Islam under the Old Covenant.

I'm with you on killing to protect ourselves. I don't care if the enemy is using religion or not.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 21, 2016)

Deuteronomy 20:17
Completely destroy them--the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites--as the LORD your God has commanded you.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 21, 2016)

These commands were given to the Children of Israel. Now if we(Gentiles) have always been the "true" Children of Israel, do they still apply?

See how believers of any religion can justify that God is telling them to kill non-believers?


----------



## Israel (Aug 21, 2016)

bullethead said:


> But in reality, you still pay your taxes and conform to earthly authority, you just pretend you don't.


Welcome in.


----------



## hummerpoo (Aug 21, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Deuteronomy 20:17
> Completely destroy them--the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites--as the LORD your God has commanded you.



Deu 20:18 
that they may not teach you to do according to all their abominable practices that they have done for their gods, and so you sin against the LORD your God. 

How does vs. 18 inform your understanding of vs. 17?


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 21, 2016)

Artfuldodger,

You get it.  The rest are in denial.  The words never changed. The commandments never changed.  Only what was emphasized was changed.  

That was the influence of society.  Watch how in the next 10-20 years how Christians will reinterpret the VERY SAME words of the Bible such that homosexuality isn't such a big deal. The people who complain about the changing church are just old curmudgeons.   They say that modernity and secularism is corrupting the church and that it is a sign of the End Times.  The last generation said that about inter-racial marriage.  A few generations before them said it about allowing women in the clergy.  Before that they complained that the Word was being watered down because stoning was no longer allowed.   They've been saying that forever and in reality, things are getting better.  (I know, I know, some people still want to stone gays. You know they're out there).

If it makes you feel better, I will concede that the beauty of the Scripture is that it can change with the times because it's so malleable and ambiguous.  I'll say that its perfect just as long as you change already (like you've done in the passed). I don't really believe that, but whatever it takes to get people to let common sense and rationality drive them is fine by me.  I wish in my lifetime that people could find some way to understand all the weird and irrational things in the Bible as metaphor; all the crazy claims that fly in the face of physics.  I believe that if the Bible were written well that it would be like the Chilton manual.  But that's just me.


----------



## bullethead (Aug 21, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Artfuldodger,
> 
> You get it.  The rest are in denial.  The words never changed. The commandments never changed.  Only what was emphasized was changed.
> 
> ...


The others have convinced themselves that it is old covenent and new covenent but the reality is that they have to try to blend a totally different religion and different god with their religion and different god.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 21, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> Deu 20:18
> that they may not teach you to do according to all their abominable practices that they have done for their gods, and so you sin against the LORD your God.
> 
> How does vs. 18 inform your understanding of vs. 17?



That the infidels must die so that Israel would not learn there abominations. It didn't work though as Israel's fate was doomed from before creation.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 21, 2016)

I can see many changes in Christianity in my lifetime. I agree with Ambush, in 20 years Christianity as a whole, the Church will have evolved to support homosexuality. 

I can remember in my lifetime when the Bible was used to support discrimination of blacks and women. Women were not suppose to wear pants. Men could not have long hair. My Mom said they weren't allowed to play cards. They weren't even allowed to have a deck of cards in the house. They could not sunbath. Rock and Roll was forbidden as was dancing. Divorce was frowned upon even if the spouse was treated bad. The only approved musical instrument for worship was a piano. It was believed to be against God's plans for us to go to the moon. Women preachers, no way.

A preacher where I grew up had some aluminum house trailers that he rented. He had a sign at the entrance that forbid sunbathing.
People can and do interpret the Bible as our society changes. 

Christians just do it at a faster rate than Muslims. Maybe because of our mixed society we had to. We are a melting pot of all kinds so we mixed faster. 

Like it or not as the younger generation of Christians come along, homosexuals will be accepted in the Church. Not only in the Church but in their lives. 

Imagine teenagers riding around town with black homosexuals in their 4 wheel drives. Weird!


----------



## Israel (Aug 21, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Artfuldodger,
> 
> You get it.  The rest are in denial.  The words never changed. The commandments never changed.  Only what was emphasized was changed.
> 
> ...



And that's why Jesus.


----------



## welderguy (Aug 21, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> I can see many changes in Christianity in my lifetime. I agree with Ambush, in 20 years Christianity as a whole, the Church will have evolved to support homosexuality.
> 
> I can remember in my lifetime when the Bible was used to support discrimination of blacks and women. Women were not suppose to wear pants. Men could not have long hair. My Mom said they weren't allowed to play cards. They weren't even allowed to have a deck of cards in the house. They could not sunbath. Rock and Roll was forbidden as was dancing. Divorce was frowned upon even if the spouse was treated bad. The only approved musical instrument for worship was a piano. It was believed to be against God's plans for us to go to the moon. Women preachers, no way.
> 
> ...



This whole post is garbage.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 21, 2016)

welderguy said:


> This whole post is garbage.



The reality of man interpreting scripture wrong may be garbage but the reality of it happening isn't. You'll live long enough to see it happening. I know I have.

Look on the bright side. Just in my lifetime I've seen improvements on changing from legalism to believing more in grace. I've seen a shift towards spiritualism and away from selfishness. 
I see people being better stewards. I see people helping their fellow man more and not so tied up on gathering physical wealth. I see love and compassion. I see forgiveness. 

What changes have you seen in your lifetime within the Church or Christian community that might be considered wrong interpretation of scripture?

Women in leadership rolls? God blessing man who are stewards of money? Teaching that He11 doesn't exist as an eternal everlasting fire? Teaching that Jesus will not return to the earth? The bible isn't the literal Word of God?
Jesus was only the Word in God's mind and not literally with God at the creation? Multiple paths to eternal life?

What I'm getting at is the modern Church is not like it was 100 years ago. 100 years ago the Church wasn't like it was 1,000 years ago.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just how it is. God doesn't change. Perhaps the Cross didn't change anything either. Being the Elect were already elected. Everything might have been as planned before time and the events just happened in time.

So in a way time hasn't changed anything especially God. The only thing that's changed is man's  interpretation of Scripture as it's related to time.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 21, 2016)

Let's look at an opposing view. God designed Christianity to change.
Changes are good. Changing from doomed to eternal death to everlasting life. 

Genesis 6:6
The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.

In this view the chosen children was the nation of Israel. They disobeyed God. This allowed God through Paul to offer salvation to the Gentiles who were once without God and strangers to the promise. 
This is an ever evolving form of Christianity. A progression if you will away from legalism and towards salvation through God's grace and only God's grace.

In this progression we move away from killing. We no longer kill or stone sinners. We no longer have to kill whole nations of non-believers. We are more peaceful, loving, and compassionate. God's new commandments are to love him and our neighbor as ourselves. We are to teach and spread the "Good News" or story of his Son who died for our sins. 
There was a time when this Good News was not spread to the Gentile. Through evolution, it now is available. In fact it is even commanded of us to spread it. Before the change this command wasn't given. 
In this view of Christianity we have evolved into a more peaceful Church. We are no longer in bed with governments dead set on expansion. We now help people. Even if they are non-beleivers. We don't kill them because they are non-believers. God no longer commands us to do so. 

"and such were some of you, but you were washed."

There was a period in time when folks weren't washed.

I for one think that's a pretty good change. 

I like change. If the evolution of Christianity gains peace in the world then I'm for it. If Islam doesn't have the same capacity to change then we have no other choice than to eradicate it.

Maybe not tomorrow, but at some point. How much time do we give them? How long can we turn the other cheek?
Can our examples of Christian peace persuade them?

Do you think God wants us to kill them or give them a little more time?  

Will they ever evolve as we have in to believing their God wants them to evolve?


----------



## Israel (Aug 22, 2016)

Your assumptions seem to be based upon what unbelievers call "christianity" is the church. How can one even see "the church" without seeing the head thereof. If the head is only discerned by faith, so likewise the body.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Aug 22, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Artfuldodger,
> 
> You get it.  The rest are in denial.  The words never changed. The commandments never changed.  Only what was emphasized was changed.
> 
> That was the influence of society.  Watch how in the next 10-20 years how Christians will reinterpret the VERY SAME words of the Bible such that homosexuality isn't such a big deal.



Unfortunately some of the words do change, from the original text, but only to draw a more accurate interpretation as the science of etymology and language advances. 

Curious regarding your analogy. Since Atheism has gone from a small conglomerate of those that believe in no deity to a massive organized religion complete with churches in and of itself; Is your proclamation of religious change not also a self indicting "splinter / plank" analogy as well?


----------



## drippin' rock (Aug 22, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Let's look at an opposing view. God designed Christianity to change.
> Changes are good. Changing from doomed to eternal death to everlasting life.
> 
> Genesis 6:6
> ...



No.  No other examples of religion will persuade them.  Why? Because they are right in their eyes.  Christianity is a cult to be destroyed.


----------



## hummerpoo (Aug 22, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Let's look at an opposing view. God designed Christianity to change.
> Changes are good. Changing from doomed to eternal death to everlasting life.
> 
> Genesis 6:6
> ...


                 ↑↑↑     ↑↑↑     ↑↑↑     ↑↑↑     ↑↑↑     ↑↑↑



welderguy said:


> This whole post is garbage.



It sounds like scripture having been read with blinders; only one example: "God's new commandments are to love him and our neighbor as ourselves"


----------



## drippin' rock (Aug 22, 2016)

welderguy said:


> This whole post is garbage.



What is your opinion of the podcast?  Do you believe Isis is as committed as they say they are?  What do you think needs to be done about it?


----------



## hummerpoo (Aug 22, 2016)

Israel said:


> Your assumptions seem to be based upon what unbelievers call "christianity" is the church. How can one even see "the church" without seeing the head thereof. If the head is only discerned by faith, so likewise the body.


----------



## Israel (Aug 22, 2016)

drippin' rock said:


> No.  No other examples of religion will persuade them.  Why? Because they are right in their eyes.  Christianity is a cult to be destroyed.




“You know nothing at all! You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.” Caiaphas did not say this on his own. Instead, as high priest that year, he was prophesying that Jesus would die for the nation,…


----------



## drippin' rock (Aug 22, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> A devout Christian has a better understanding of the mind and heart of a Jihadist than an Atheist.



Extreme Islam- Islam is the one true faith, everyone else must turn or we will seek to kill them when we can, because they are an affront to everything we believe. 

Christians- Christianity is the one true faith, everyone else must turn or burn.  (We won't kill them, but their fate is worse than death)


----------



## drippin' rock (Aug 22, 2016)

Israel said:


> “You know nothing at all! You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.” Caiaphas did not say this on his own. Instead, as high priest that year, he was prophesying that Jesus would die for the nation,…



I think what you are saying is, "turn the other cheek?"  If not please correct me.


----------



## Israel (Aug 22, 2016)

drippin' rock said:


> I think what you are saying is, "turn the other cheek?"  If not please correct me.



That could surely be included.
But, I heard God in your response.
Religion cannot dissuade from religion.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 22, 2016)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Unfortunately some of the words do change, from the original text, but only to draw a more accurate interpretation as the science of etymology and language advances.
> 
> Curious regarding your analogy. Since Atheism has gone from a small conglomerate of those that believe in no deity to a massive organized religion complete with churches in and of itself; Is your proclamation of religious change not also a self indicting "splinter / plank" analogy as well?




There's no Bible of Atheism. No code.  It's just a word that describe someone who doesn't believe in God.  They might have all different reasons for their non-belief.  Most I know are Atheists because they don't see enough proof to warrant a belief in God(s).  They typically are rational but even if they aren't, and believe in witches, sorcery, UFOs or Bigfoot they are still Atheists.

Tell me what you know about the Church of Atheism.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Aug 22, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> There's no Bible of Atheism.



Well duhhhh. How do you sell a religion based on a book with empty pages.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 22, 2016)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Well duhhhh. How do you sell a religion based on a book with empty pages.




Thanks for supporting my point. Atheism isn't a religion.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Aug 22, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Thanks for supporting my point. Atheism isn't a religion.



Not true. 

http://www.icr.org/article/new-state-religion-atheism/

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/04/160422-atheism-agnostic-secular-nones-rising-religion/

"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice"

aka

You say it isn't a duck all day long, but it walks, talks and quacks just like one,,,,,,,,ergo..............Atheism is now a religion. It even has churches for gatherings. 

Anything done in a repetitive manner, religiously, is a religion. For some people alcohol is their religion.


----------



## bullethead (Aug 22, 2016)

re·li·gion
/rÉ™ËˆlijÉ™n/
noun
noun: religion, plural noun: religions
1.
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods:
"ideas about the relationship between science and religion"
synonyms:
faith, belief, worship, creed, sect, ... more
â–ª
a particular system of faith and worship:
"the world's great religions"
â–ª
a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance:


----------



## bullethead (Aug 22, 2016)

a·the·ist
/ËˆÄ�THÄ“É™st/
noun
noun: atheist, plural noun: atheists
1.
a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods:
"he is a committed atheist"
synonyms:
nonbeliever, disbeliever, unbeliever, skeptic, doubter,


----------



## bullethead (Aug 22, 2016)

Not seeing the claim you are trying to make Miguel.


----------



## riverbank (Aug 22, 2016)

This conversation has gotten deep. A man with little self control could get pretty riled up reading through some of this stuff. I believe in freedom. That goes for freedom of religion to. I think a person is entitled believe whatever it is that they want to believe in. WHAT I DO NOT believe in is the killing of innocent people. The random, bizarre, inhumane thoughts and acts of violence such as terroristic attacks on other people. If someone wants to believe a certain way then that's fine. But keep your hands to yourself. As far as I'm concerned any and all people that think it's okay to bomb a public dwelling, fly planes into crowded buildings, shoot up night clubs, sporting events and concerts, anything of that nature should be wiped from the face of the earth. . They are a danger to society and human race as a whole. Watch some of the documentary's on 9/11 , if that don't bring a tear to your eye nothing will.  A father calls home and tells his wife and kids how much he loves them, and how much they mean to him right before he jumps to his death to keep the flames from burning him alive. He tells his wife not to spend the rest of her life thinking about him and to move on with someone new. Tells his kids to grow up with respect and courage. And not to ever think anything is impossible. Left all that on an answering machine without ever even a crack in his voice. Hung up the phone and jumped out of a high rise building. Someone who forces another human being into that kind of position is nothing but a danger to man kind and should be NUKED from society. Plain and simple. And Anyone who supports this type of terroristic garbage should be lined up to perish beside them.


----------



## bullethead (Aug 22, 2016)

riverbank said:


> This conversation has gotten deep. A man with little self control could get pretty riled up reading through some of this stuff. I believe in freedom. That goes for freedom of religion to. I think a person is entitled believe whatever it is that they want to believe in. WHAT I DO NOT believe in is the killing of innocent people. The random, bizarre, inhumane thoughts and acts of violence such as terroristic attacks on other people. If someone wants to believe a certain way then that's fine. But keep your hands to yourself. As far as I'm concerned any and all people that think it's okay to bomb a public dwelling, fly planes into crowded buildings, shoot up night clubs, sporting events and concerts, anything of that nature should be wiped from the face of the earth. . They are a danger to society and human race as a whole. Watch some of the documentary's on 9/11 , if that don't bring a tear to your eye nothing will.  A father calls home and tells his wife and kids how much he loves them, and how much they mean to him right before he jumps to his death to keep the flames from burning him alive. He tells his wife not to spend the rest of her life thinking about him and to move on with someone new. Tells his kids to grow up with respect and courage. And not to ever think anything is impossible. Left all that on an answering machine without ever even a crack in his voice. Hung up the phone and jumped out of a high rise building. Someone who forces another human being into that kind of position is nothing but a danger to man kind and should be NUKED from society. Plain and simple. And Anyone who supports this type of terroristic garbage should be lined up to perish beside them.


That is a quality post riverbank.


----------



## drippin' rock (Aug 22, 2016)

riverbank said:


> This conversation has gotten deep. A man with little self control could get pretty riled up reading through some of this stuff. I believe in freedom. That goes for freedom of religion to. I think a person is entitled believe whatever it is that they want to believe in. WHAT I DO NOT believe in is the killing of innocent people. The random, bizarre, inhumane thoughts and acts of violence such as terroristic attacks on other people. If someone wants to believe a certain way then that's fine. But keep your hands to yourself. As far as I'm concerned any and all people that think it's okay to bomb a public dwelling, fly planes into crowded buildings, shoot up night clubs, sporting events and concerts, anything of that nature should be wiped from the face of the earth. . They are a danger to society and human race as a whole. Watch some of the documentary's on 9/11 , if that don't bring a tear to your eye nothing will.  A father calls home and tells his wife and kids how much he loves them, and how much they mean to him right before he jumps to his death to keep the flames from burning him alive. He tells his wife not to spend the rest of her life thinking about him and to move on with someone new. Tells his kids to grow up with respect and courage. And not to ever think anything is impossible. Left all that on an answering machine without ever even a crack in his voice. Hung up the phone and jumped out of a high rise building. Someone who forces another human being into that kind of position is nothing but a danger to man kind and should be NUKED from society. Plain and simple. And Anyone who supports this type of terroristic garbage should be lined up to perish beside them.



I think we all, regardless of belief, agree with you. 

Isis has turned it into them vs. the rest of the world.


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 22, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Artfuldodger,
> 
> You get it.



There's a sentence I never thought I'd live to see.


----------



## drippin' rock (Aug 22, 2016)

I'm not getting a sense that anyone has listened to the afore mentioned podcast. Regardless of what you think you already know about Islam and isis, you should. At the very least google the article and read it.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 22, 2016)

drippin' rock said:


> I'm not getting a sense that anyone has listened to the afore mentioned podcast. Regardless of what you think you already know about Islam and isis, you should. At the very least google the article and read it.



They probably won't because Sam Harris is an outspoken Atheist.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 22, 2016)

centerpin fan said:


> There's a sentence I never thought I'd live to see.



He gets it.  Almost everything else he's been saying about Christianity's changing face is spot on as well.


----------



## drippin' rock (Aug 22, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> They probably won't because Sam Harris is an outspoken Atheist.



The big difference is we can argue back and forth all day about belief and God, and we aren't cutting each other's throats over it. Christianity has evolved past that. Maybe given another couple hundred years Islam could evolve as well, but somehow I don't think so.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Aug 22, 2016)

bullethead said:


> Not seeing the claim you are trying to make Miguel.



Keep looking, though my faith is not in mankind, man or any one man in particular, I have faith most humans can use google to it's fullest extent to expand their understanding and move outside of the box.


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 22, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> He gets it.  Almost everything else he's been saying about Christianity's changing face is spot on as well.



This:



Artfuldodger said:


> ... in 20 years Christianity as a whole, the Church will have evolved to support homosexuality.



... is just not gonna happen -- not in 20 years and not in 200 years.  

First, to set aside homosexuality as a sin is to go against the plain teaching of Scripture and 2,000 years of church history.  Second, for the churches that _have_ accepted it, it's a slow suicide.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 22, 2016)

centerpin fan said:


> This:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Churches have changed their "plain teaching of scripture" in the last 2000 years, yes or no?

Maybe "church" itself is just going out of style.  If there is any value in organized religion or faith based tribalism then it will continue.  I'm starting to understand the value of religion as a binding, community building phenomena.  I can see a "type" of religion continuing into perpetuity, just not the kind that we presently have that's divisive and in denial of physics.


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 22, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Churches have changed their "plain teaching of scripture" in the last 2000 years, yes or no?



Yes, of course they have.  Gay marriage is one such change, and there are several mainline churches that have gone along with it.

I was addressing AD's point that "Christianity as a whole" would accept homosexuality.  It's just not gonna happen.


----------



## bullethead (Aug 22, 2016)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Keep looking, though my faith is not in mankind, man or any one man in particular, I have faith most humans can use google to it's fullest extent to expand their understanding and move outside of the box.


You want to turn a small portion of people that do not believe in a god, that also happen to meet in a building, into a religion that all non believers are a part of.
That doesn't work and it doesn't fit the definition of religion or atheist.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 22, 2016)

centerpin fan said:


> Yes, of course they have.  Gay marriage is one such change, and there are several mainline churches that have gone along with it.
> 
> I was addressing AD's point that "Christianity as a whole" would accept homosexuality.  It's just not gonna happen.



OK, I'll change my prediction to 85%. There are  many Christians today that are still against mixed marriages and women having equal rights.  

Twenty years is mighty soon, I'll say 25-30. Way sooner than 200 though.

I never thought I'd see women preachers or women being the head of the household in a Christian family either. 

I think God wants us to change. It's all about the washing and he wants every person to know this. It's all about helping and loving and he wants, no commands, that every Christian do this. 
We must change on how we interpret these verses to follow the Great Commandments. Legalism is dead.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 22, 2016)

Wow, I've seen great strides and changes in the direction of teaching salvation by grace and not of works. 
Lordship Salvation is on the way out and Free Grace Salvation is on the way in. Change is good.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 22, 2016)

centerpin fan said:


> Yes, of course they have.  Gay marriage is one such change, and there are several mainline churches that have gone along with it.
> 
> I was addressing AD's point that "Christianity as a whole" would accept homosexuality.  It's just not gonna happen.



Why has the Christian community changed it's views on divorce, birth control, premarital sex, drinking, lottery, visiting restaurants on Sunday, golf on Sunday, following the 10 Commandments, and to a certain extent moving away from a belief in free will?
Churches are now leaning to believe in predestination and election. That could be a slow progressive change.

I'm saying from like the 50's to the present. The Word hasn't changed. Why is the Church following society instead of society following the Church? 
I think it's a fair question to ask. Why are we as a Church so worldly?

Are we as individuals so worried about money that we have changed in order to receive worldy riches? Do we just want to fit in to society as it changes or are we changing for the right reasons as we progress to accept everyone?

The Hindus and Muslims in the small Georgia towns seem to be fitting in OK. The Mexican Catholics now living in predominantly Protestant South Georgia seem to be fitting in pretty good. 
Have we adapted to receive their money and their labor pools or have we adapted to accept them as individuals?


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## ambush80 (Aug 23, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why has the Christian community changed it's views on divorce, birth control, premarital sex, drinking, lottery, visiting restaurants on Sunday, golf on Sunday, following the 10 Commandments, and to a certain extent moving away from a belief in free will?
> Churches are now leaning to believe in predestination and election. That could be a slow progressive change.
> 
> I'm saying from like the 50's to the present. The Word hasn't changed. Why is the Church following society instead of society following the Church?
> ...



Good questions.


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## 660griz (Aug 23, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why is the Church following society instead of society following the Church?


 Morals change.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Aug 23, 2016)

bullethead said:


> You want to turn a small portion of people that do not believe in a god, that also happen to meet in a building, into a religion that all non believers are a part of.
> That doesn't work and it doesn't fit the definition of religion or atheist.



Then you didn't bother to read either of the links I posted huh?


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## 660griz (Aug 23, 2016)

> An _unbiased_ viewpoint forces the conclusion that America has now adopted a state religion, supported by billions of tax dollars and enforced by the power of law. That state religion is atheism.



Woo hoo! It has been declared. 
This is definitely not sour grapes because religion is being kept out of the classrooms. 
I would be willing to compromise. A mandatory religious class in school and a mandatory secular class in church.

Religion has been throwing around the word 'religion' to describe atheist for a while now. It must have bugged some atheist at the time so, they continue. 
No where in the definition of atheist can I find the 'disbelief' in religions. Probably because we all know they exist. So, call atheism a religion, secret society, book club, or Rally on the Rocks. Doesn't matter that much to me.


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## WaltL1 (Aug 23, 2016)

660griz said:


> Woo hoo! It has been declared.
> This is definitely not sour grapes because religion is being kept out of the classrooms.
> I would be willing to compromise. A mandatory religious class in school and a mandatory secular class in church.
> 
> ...


Same ol' same ol'.
Take words with established definitions, give them new definitions to support an agenda and then ignore that fact.


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## ambush80 (Aug 23, 2016)

WaltL1 said:


> Same ol' same ol'.
> Take words with established definitions, give them new definitions to support an agenda and then ignore that fact.



I admit it.  I tried to do it too, but I got put in my place.

http://forum.gon.com/showpost.php?p=10308977&postcount=32

http://forum.gon.com/showpost.php?p=10309075&postcount=35

http://forum.gon.com/showpost.php?p=10309131&postcount=36

http://forum.gon.com/showpost.php?p=10309251&postcount=39


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## centerpin fan (Aug 23, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> OK, I'll change my prediction to 85%.



Not a snowball's chance in Hades.

The Presbyterians voted last year to affirm gay marriage, and they only got about 68%.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 23, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why has the Christian community changed it's views on divorce, birth control, premarital sex, drinking, lottery, visiting restaurants on Sunday, golf on Sunday, following the 10 Commandments ...



You can't mix sexual sins which are clearly prohibited in Scripture with things like "visiting restaurants on Sunday".


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## centerpin fan (Aug 23, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why is the Church following society instead of society following the Church?
> I think it's a fair question to ask. Why are we as a Church so worldly?



I agree it is a fair question to ask, but you seem to be much more concerned about the worldly golf on Sunday than the worldly gay marriage.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 23, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why has the Christian community changed it's views on divorce, birth control, premarital sex, drinking, lottery, visiting restaurants on Sunday, golf on Sunday, following the 10 Commandments, and to a certain extent moving away from a belief in free will?



Again, what certain denominations and congregations believe does not mean "the Christian community" believes them.


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## ambush80 (Aug 23, 2016)

Centerpin,

The point is that the church changes.  That's undisputed.  Do you think that there were people who said "Not a chance EVER!!!" about some of the changes that have occurred?  I think there were.  There's no way you can predict what they will change on.  There might come a day where the resurrection is taught as strictly metaphor.  You can plug your ears and say "NO WAY!!!" but you just don't know.  

I think it would be a move in the right direction.


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## WaltL1 (Aug 23, 2016)

centerpin fan said:


> Again, what certain denominations and congregations believe does not mean "the Christian community" believes them.


Come on, Art isnt making these things up.
They are observable. These denominations and congregations ARE PART of the Christian community. Are they not?
The Christian community is made up of people. The Christian community has been breaking themselves up into groups of varying beliefs since day one.
Of course your point is legitimate - not 100% of the community believes in golf on Sunday etc etc but Arts point is equally legitimate.
When Art says "Christian community" there isnt a person in here that thinks he means the entire, 100%, everybody, in the Christian community.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 23, 2016)

WaltL1 said:


> When Art says "Christian community" there isnt a person in here that thinks he means the entire, 100%, everybody, in the Christian community.



That's true.  He downgraded his estimate to 85%.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 23, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> The point is that the church changes.



Agreed, but fundamental doctrines of the church are not subject to the whims of modern society.  You mentioned the resurrection above, a doctrine that is absolutely crucial to the faith.  If you don't believe in the resurrection (and I'm sure you could find "Christians" who don't), you've just created your own faith.  As Walt noted above, that's not new.


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## WaltL1 (Aug 23, 2016)

centerpin fan said:


> That's true.  He downgraded his estimate to 85%.


If you consider all the possible changes in thought/beliefs - fishing on Sunday, Waffle House after church, acceptable attire in church etc etc i would venture to guess he's not far off.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 23, 2016)

Maybe it depends on what covenant one is keeping.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 23, 2016)

For anybody ...

I saw this headline yesterday:

Women "are genetically programmed to have affairs"

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...ersity-texas-scientists-suggest-a7203501.html

Now, we've been told for years that gay people are "born that way".  If adultery is also genetic and becomes more acceptable in society, should the church go along?  Take our Bibles and just mark through that troubling little "thou shalt not commit adultery"?


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## WaltL1 (Aug 23, 2016)

centerpin fan said:


> For anybody ...
> 
> I saw this headline yesterday:
> 
> ...



SHOULD the church go along?
In my opinion no.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 23, 2016)

This just in; 

People are programmed to sin.

Thus needing salvation in the form of someone who took on our inability to not sin.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 23, 2016)

When I was a young gentlemen in a small little country Church we were Sabbath keepers and were required to rest on Sunday. We didn't go to stores and restaurants. 

Later in the same Church we started going to stores and going fishing on Sunday. Why? What changed?


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## 660griz (Aug 23, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Later in the same Church we started going to stores and going fishing on Sunday. Why? What changed?



Folks got jobs and realized they needed two days to enjoy life and get stuff done around the house.


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## ambush80 (Aug 23, 2016)

centerpin fan said:


> That's true.  He downgraded his estimate to 85%.



The remaining 15% will be considered the "Westboro II".


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## ambush80 (Aug 23, 2016)

http://beta.deseretnews.com/article...re-winning-over-mainline-churches.html?pg=all

_"Everybody knows that the so-called 'mainline' is now the sideline. The United Church of Christ, Presbyterians, Methodists and the Episcopalians have been shrinking at a rather prodigious rate. But that isn't because people left church, it is because people left THOSE churches," says Stark. "Groups like the Assemblies of God have doubled and redoubled in size in the same period of time."_


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 23, 2016)

The changes I have seen within the Church are more towards teaching that we can't quit sinning and thus need Jesus. 

This progression is moving away from the more legal issues of the Law and towards salvation by grace instead of works.

If I could quit sinning then I wouldn't need Jesus, I'd just quit sinning. I would save myself by living a righteous life.

In doing so, and focusing on changes that have already taken place blacks can marry whites, women can become preachers, men can have long hair, and women can wear pants. We can now eat in restaurants on Sunday.

I really don't know and neither does anyone what holds forth for future changes within the Church. I was just speculating about homosexuality. Who knows how it will be in the future as each younger generation appears to interpret scriptures differently than the past. They might really move towards salvation by grace and not of works. 

Once one realizes he can't quit sinning and that his sins have been paid for, the freedom in Christ sets him to understand what grace truly means.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 23, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> When I was a young gentlemen in a small little country Church we were Sabbath keepers and were required to rest on Sunday. We didn't go to stores and restaurants.
> 
> Later in the same Church we started going to stores and going fishing on Sunday. Why? What changed?



You're asking the wrong people.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 23, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> http://beta.deseretnews.com/article...re-winning-over-mainline-churches.html?pg=all
> 
> _"Everybody knows that the so-called 'mainline' is now the sideline. The United Church of Christ, Presbyterians, Methodists and the Episcopalians have been shrinking at a rather prodigious rate. But that isn't because people left church, it is because people left THOSE churches," says Stark. "Groups like the Assemblies of God have doubled and redoubled in size in the same period of time."_



Agree.



> Dalrymple agrees that part of the weakness of mainline churches is that they became centers of left-wing political activism. "That may be where the leadership was, coming out of the seminaries, but that was not where the congregations were."



Exactly right.


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## ambush80 (Aug 23, 2016)

centerpin fan said:


> _"Dalrymple agrees that part of the weakness of mainline churches is that they became centers of left-wing political activism. "That may be where the leadership was, coming out of the seminaries, but that was not where the congregations were." _
> 
> Exactly right.



What is it, do you think, that draws people in the seminary to political activism, specifically progressive ideas?

I think that if you go into a profession in which you want to selflessly help people then you are more concerned with fairness and harm, which are typically Liberal concerns according to Jonathan Haidt author of _The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion_, whom I agree with.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 23, 2016)

centerpin fan said:


> You're asking the wrong people.



I'm asking you.


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## welderguy (Aug 23, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm asking you.



Based on what I see from you on a daily basis,which is your wishy washy, lack of concrete conviction on ANYTHING,quickness to question EVERYTHING,tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine,..I would guess you were not convicted to do those things you aforementioned either.Just my take.

The bottom line is : are you,or were you being led of the Spirit by faith?


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## centerpin fan (Aug 23, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm asking you.



I have no idea, which is why I said you were asking the wrong people.  I know nothing about your church, other than what you said above.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 23, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> What is it, do you think, that draws people in the seminary to political activism, specifically progressive ideas?.



I dunno.  Let me think about it.

I will say that I'm reading Dinesh D'Souza's new book, Hillary's America.  It's difficult to read it and think progressivism is the way to help the poor and downtrodden.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 23, 2016)

centerpin fan said:


> I have no idea, which is why I said you were asking the wrong people.  I know nothing about your church, other than what you said above.



That would be a fair idea if my Church was the only one that was changing. 
Getting back to the OP and his comparison to Christianity concerning changes, Why do you think the Church has changed? 
Do you view changes withing the Christian community to be different from the Church changing?
Maybe you are a member of a Church that hasn't seen much change. Do you consider that a good thing?


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 23, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Based on what I see from you on a daily basis,which is your wishy washy, lack of concrete conviction on ANYTHING,quickness to question EVERYTHING,tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine,..I would guess you were not convicted to do those things you aforementioned either.Just my take.
> 
> The bottom line is : are you,or were you being led of the Spirit by faith?



If I were at some point then I still am. I say yes. They Spirit has lead me away from Lordship Salvation towards Free Grace Salvation. Change can be good. 
Now the Spirit is trying to lead me away from a Free will belief to an Election belief. Change can be good.

Thank you Spirit for change. Thank you Spirit for letting me lead others away from thinking they can work their way to salvation by works. 
Wishy washy, I like to compare my spiritual journey to that of Paul's.

I have great hope that the Church will or is changing according to their journey as being lead by the Spirit.

God has lead other people to him by getting his people to change. God had Peter change about preaching to Cornelius and his household. Change can be good.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 23, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I would guess you were not convicted to do those things you aforementioned either.Just my take.



What things that I mentioned were you asking me if I was not convicted to do?


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## Israel (Aug 24, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> If I were at some point then I still am. I say yes. They Spirit has lead me away from Lordship Salvation towards Free Grace Salvation. Change can be good.
> Now the Spirit is trying to lead me away from a Free will belief to an Election belief. Change can be good.
> 
> Thank you Spirit for change. Thank you Spirit for letting me lead others away from thinking they can work their way to salvation by works.
> ...



That's true. From where I see it, men seem particularly devoted to keeping what they identify as _their_ integrity intact. Is that not part of what might be seen in Peter's dispute in the vision? Yet, he is reproved, is he not?
_And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. _

What may be called by some as a psycholigical term..."projection"...Jesus was not reluctant to address, (see "motes and logs".)

A predilection to identify sin/fault/lack/error as "in the other", (out there) is no more than a self defense mechanism. Jesus did something about this. In his own body, on the tree.


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## gordon 2 (Aug 24, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> What is it, do you think, that draws people in the seminary to political activism, specifically progressive ideas?
> 
> I think that if you go into a profession in which you want to selflessly help people then you are more concerned with fairness and harm, which are typically Liberal concerns according to Jonathan Haidt author of _The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion_, whom I agree with.



I am drawn by this question. If seminary staffs are like the regular university staffs that I have known-- most if not all are not in it "selflessly" regardless of what reason might spin or the faith might say regards fairness and harm.

And in all camps the rules of fairness don't apply to everyone especially when power and ideas becomes capital.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 24, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> OK, I'll change my prediction to 85%. There are  many Christians today that are still against mixed marriages and women having equal rights.



Very good article on the coming storm:

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/we-have-been-warned/


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## centerpin fan (Aug 24, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> That would be a fair idea if my Church was the only one that was changing.
> Getting back to the OP and his comparison to Christianity concerning changes, Why do you think the Church has changed?



The church believes the same creeds they believed 2,000 years ago.


Apostles' Creed:

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, God’s only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic and apostolic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.


Nicene Creed:

We believe in one God the Father, the Almighty, creator of heaven and earth, and of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven; by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son). With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets.

We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.


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## Madman (Aug 24, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> I was saying that Christians might feel (like the Islamists) that they are being faulted, mocked, and ostracized.



Atheist believe they are more intellectual than believers, I believe that goes without saying, But I would respond as Paul did; "don't hate me, pity me."

If you are trying to compare Islam to Christianity, I will say there are some similarities, as almost all religions have some similarities, however, they all differ greatly on the fundamentals.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 24, 2016)

Example of change in the Church. Divorce is a grave offense against the natural law. Divorce does injury to the covenant of salvation. 
Certain remarried divorcees can't receive holy communion.

Pope Calls for Change In The Church. Pope Francis urges priests to be less judgmental in regards to divorce.

Did the Pope not get the memo about change?


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## Madman (Aug 24, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Centerpin,
> 
> The point is that the church changes.  That's undisputed.


  Yes change always happens.  The question is; is it always change for the better?



ambush80 said:


> Do you think that there were people who said "Not a chance EVER!!!" about some of the changes that have occurred?  I think there were.  There's no way you can predict what they will change on.


 I believe we can can see the way change usually goes.  It is usually a relaxation of any rule or thought that is binding on some action we would like to participate in.  We want society to approve of our actions.



ambush80 said:


> There might come a day where the resurrection is taught as strictly metaphor.  You can plug your ears and say "NO WAY!!!" but you just don't know.


  Too late the resurrection has been denied by some groups since the church at Corinth.  Bring on something new.  Oh yeh "there is nothing new under the sun".



ambush80 said:


> I think it would be a move in the right direction.


  Atheists can believe what they choose.  To be considered a "Christian" there are certain unconditional tenants of the faith that must be believed, and the bodily resurrection of Christ is one of them.

Out of curiosity, why do you care what a Christian believes?


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 24, 2016)

Not exactly a change in Church dogma but most of the individuals look at birth control differently than in the 60's.
I would still consider this a change. 

When the members change or their leader changes, dogma doesn't matter. Scripture interpretations change.

Dogma doesn't change, scripture doesn't change.


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## Madman (Aug 24, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Example of change in the Church. Divorce is a grave offense against the natural law. Divorce does injury to the covenant of salvation.
> Divorcees can't receive holy communion.
> 
> Pope Calls for Change In The Church. Pope Francis urges priests to be less judgmental.
> ...



Who cares what the pope says?  Moses gave divorce papers to some because they were heartless, sinful, men.  Some people lie, some steal, some murder, are you saying there is no forgiveness available from God?


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## Madman (Aug 24, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Dogma doesn't change, scripture doesn't change.



Dogma does change, the only thing that does not change is the Word of God.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 24, 2016)

I agree with Madman, God does forgive. I was just showing examples of good changes as the Church progresses towards teaching God's forgiveness and away from legalism.


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## Madman (Aug 24, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> I agree with Madman, God does forgive. I was just showing examples of good changes as the Church progresses towards teaching God's forgiveness and away from legalism.



I don't believe they are necessarily "good changes".  Is it better now that a large part of society applauds pregnancy outside of marriage?  or was it better when society acknowledged that it was not good for the sake of the mother, the child, and society yet made quiet provisions for the mother and the child?

God calls us to holiness, man thinks that can be achieved with laws, it can only be achieved by knowledge of God and of sin.

By knowing the law we know sin, by knowing God we know the correct path and what is correct.  As Christians when we fall there is a means of repentance and forgiveness.


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## Madman (Aug 24, 2016)

“Tolerance is the last virtue of a depraved society. When you have an immoral society that has blatantly, proudly, violated all of the commandments of God, there is one last virtue they insist upon: tolerance for their immorality. They will not have you condemning what they have done as being wrong, and they have created a belief system in which it is not, and in which they are no longer the criminal or the villain or the evil person, but you are!”
			D. James Kennedy


Unfortunately this is where we have gotten to, even a large part of the church.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 24, 2016)

Romans 1:32
Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.


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