# God murdered his Son?????



## M80

Thinking about Calvinism, if they believe we don't have a choice and that God picks and chooses who he wants to be saved. That means God made Adam Sin and also means before the foundation of the earth that God choose to murder his son. 

Now most will think I'm stupid for bringing this up but if God dosnt give us a choice then God forced man to sin and he choose to murder Jesus. Now Adam had a choice to eat the fruit or not. By one mans sin sin entered into this world. We could still be in Eden but he choose to sin. Jesus laid down his life for us. 

Now Calvinist say it is all Gods will. The bible says "Not willing that any perish but all come to repentence". If his will is for none to perish, why is people going to He11. Also you will not find anywhere that God created he11 for the human race but it was made for Satan and his demons.


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## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> Thinking about Calvinism, if they believe we don't have a choice and that God picks and chooses who he wants to be saved. That means God made Adam Sin and also means before the foundation of the earth that God choose to murder his son.


"Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand."(Isaiah 53:10)

"For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.(Acts 4:27,28)

Do you believe that a willing sacrifice meets the Biblical definition of murder?


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## M80

If there is no choice for us to be saved and God choose some to go to He11, then before the foundation of the world God choose to make man sin. If he choose to make man sin then he caused Jesus to die. Jesus sacrificed his life for us because of sin. If Adam wouldn't have sinned and to this day we didn't eat of the forbidden fruit there wouldn't have been a need for Jesus to die. Man choose to sin, there fore Jesus loved us so much he died for us.


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## Mako22

mwilliams80 said:


> Thinking about Calvinism, if they believe we don't have a choice and that God picks and chooses who he wants to be saved. That means God made Adam Sin and also means before the foundation of the earth that God choose to murder his son.
> 
> Now most will think I'm stupid for bringing this up but if God dosnt give us a choice then God forced man to sin and he choose to murder Jesus. Now Adam had a choice to eat the fruit or not. By one mans sin sin entered into this world. We could still be in Eden but he choose to sin. Jesus laid down his life for us.
> 
> Now Calvinist say it is all Gods will. The bible says "Not willing that any perish but all come to repentence". If his will is for none to perish, why is people going to He11. Also you will not find anywhere that God created he11 for the human race but it was made for Satan and his demons.



Actually Christ himself willingly gave up his life on the cross (yes I know he is God). Hyper Calvinism with its wilted TULIP is a lie born in the pit of he.. and most that I know who cling to it need to be truly be born again themselves. I have no fellowship with hyper Calvinist but the problem is in finding (at least with Baptist) one who will openly admit to being one.


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## M80

Well I'm not going to say I have no fellowship with them because that's not being right. If we can help them that's what I want to do, but probably not going to change them and they are not going to change me. 

I agree with Jesus laying down his life, amen. The whole problem with Calvinist is if God pre ordained everything and didn't give us free will, he choose to Murder his son. Calvinist are not going to believe that cause it's hard to chew on.


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## Israel

I think we getting down to it.
The surface I mean...so we can scratch it.
If all we can reach is one another, that'll more than do.


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## M80

Israel said:


> I think we getting down to it.
> The surface I mean...so we can scratch it.
> If all we can reach is one another, that'll more than do.



Amen


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## hummerpoo

FIRST

What is a Calvinist?
A Calvinist is someone who has gotten tired of explaining that he does not believe what others conclude he must believe.

SECOND

How is this:


mwilliams80 said:


> he choose to Murder his son.


substantially different than this?
"He gave His only begotten Son"

THIRD

I'm outta here


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## Artfuldodger

The world was created through the "Word." Is the mystery in the following verse, the Gospel of Jesus Christ? 

Ephesians 3:9
and to make all men see what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God, who created all things through Jesus Christ;


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## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> I agree with Jesus laying down his life, amen. The whole problem with Calvinist is if God pre ordained everything and didn't give us free will, he choose to Murder his son. Calvinist are not going to believe that cause it's hard to chew on.


You continue to say this, but are you getting your definition of "murder" from outside of the Bible?

It is not hard to chew on at all. It is nonsensical.


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## M80

gemcgrew said:


> You continue to say this, but are you getting your definition of "murder" from outside of the Bible?
> 
> It is not hard to chew on at all. It is nonsensical.



Ok instead of murder he choose to kill his son.


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## Artfuldodger

If God made Adam knowing full well that he would sin. Then he also knew he would have to send his Son to die for our sins regardless if he caused the actual sin of Adam or not.

1 Peter 1:20
God chose him as your ransom long before the world began, but he has now revealed him to you in these last days.

He could have used his foreknowledge to call the whole thing off. So he did choose his Son to die for our sins. Confusing as it may be John 3:16 confirms this.


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## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> If God made Adam knowing full well that he would sin. Then he also knew he would have to send his Son to die for our sins regardless if he caused the actual sin of Adam or not.
> 
> 1 Peter 1:20
> God chose him as your ransom long before the world began, but he has now revealed him to you in these last days.
> 
> He could have used his foreknowledge to call the whole thing off. So he did choose his Son to die for our sins. Confusing as it may be John 3:16 confirms this.




Now we are getting somewhere. Through his foreknowledge he knew what we would do.  It is us who caused God to give his son or allow his Son to did for us. Jesus choose to die for us. He freely laid down his life.


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## bigbuckhunter1

Jesus chose to lay down his life to cover our sins. It's this simple "For God so loved the world that he gave His one and only begotten Son so whomever shall belive in Him shall not parish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16


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## Artfuldodger

bigbuckhunter1 said:


> Jesus chose to lay down his life to cover our sins. It's this simple "For God so loved the world that he gave His one and only begotten Son so whomever shall belive in Him shall not parish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16



Jesus chose to die for our sins? But then you followed with God so loved the world the HE gave his son.

1 Peter 1:20
God chose him as your ransom long before the world began, but he has now revealed him to you in these last days.


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## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> Now we are getting somewhere. Through his foreknowledge he knew what we would do.  It is us who caused God to give his son or allow his Son to did for us. Jesus choose to die for us. He freely laid down his life.



Why didn't God change his plan when he foresaw how our plan interfered with his plan? Perhaps that is what Jesus was, Plan B. But wait  1 Peter 1:20 says:

1 Peter 1:20
God chose him as your ransom long before the world began, but he has now revealed him to you in these last days.

So God did use his foreknowledge to see that Adam would sin and Jesus was not Plan B after all but Plan A. God continued with his original plan which included sending Jesus to die for our sins. 
So if it was us who caused God to send his Son to die for our sins, we somehow in a strange sort of way, saved ourselves.


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## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> Why didn't God change his plan when he foresaw how our plan interfered with his plan? Perhaps that is what Jesus was, Plan B. But wait  1 Peter 1:20 says:
> 
> 1 Peter 1:20
> God chose him as your ransom long before the world began, but he has now revealed him to you in these last days.
> 
> So God did use his foreknowledge to see that Adam would sin and Jesus was not Plan B after all but Plan A. God continued with his original plan which included sending Jesus to die for our sins.
> So if it was us who caused God to send his Son to die for our sins, we somehow in a strange sort of way, saved ourselves.



Our sin caused God to send his son. It is still our choice to accept him or reject him so we can't save ourselves.


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## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> Our sin caused God to send his son. It is still our choice to accept him or reject him so we can't save ourselves.



Our sin made or caused God to send his Son. This means our salvation is based on something we did. We sinned and thus God responded or reacted by sending his Son. 
Our Salvation is based on something we did. We are responsible for our need for salvation so in that respect we caused our salvation. 

Why didn't God change his plan when he foresaw how our plan interfered with his plan? Perhaps that is what Jesus was, Plan B. But wait  1 Peter 1:20 says:

1 Peter 1:20
God chose him as your ransom long before the world began, but he has now revealed him to you in these last days.

God knew we were going to require salvation before we even required salvation. Therefore we provided our own salvation by providing a Need.


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## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> Our sin caused God to send his son. It is still our choice to accept him or reject him so we can't save ourselves.



To be honest, I don't understand any of this any better than you, Gem, or hummerpoo. 
I would like to know just what events past, present, and future God controls, we control, Satan controls, or randomness controls? What part of Biblical prophesy was God's plan vs just his foreknowledge? Was Saul becoming Paul  God's plan or just foreknowledge? Was Jesus being denied by Peter, turned over by Judas, turned against by the Jews, and killed by the Romans, God's plan or just God's foreknowledge?


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## Artfuldodger

What I'd really like to know is if God has me dying on a certain day regardless of my diet, exercise, medical checkups, and/or lifestyle?

I'd hate to know I've wasted a lot of time for something that I have no control over. It want do me much good to pray for God to cure me if he is the one who made me eat stuff that made me sick.


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## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> Ok instead of murder he choose to kill his son.


Ok... I praise God for that. 

It would appear that you are using the same argument against Calvinism, that the Atheist have been using against Christianity for a very long time. This is the first time that I have seen a professing Christian adopt this same argument.


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## M80

gemcgrew said:


> Ok... I praise God for that.
> 
> It would appear that you are using the same argument against Calvinism, that the Atheist have been using against Christianity for a very long time. This is the first time that I have seen a professing Christian adopt this same argument.



Low blow brother. You still haven't given a response about "God not willing that any should perish". If that was his will, why are people going to he11.


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## Day trip

Either / or thinking is the problem here.  Like we can possibly understand the mind of God and then participate as we choose through our powers of reason.  That's not faith.  I don't say this often but the OP is walking a pretty fine line with blasphemy.  I understand the concept of debate to gain knowledge, even playing devils advocate to get another point of view but even that needs to be performed with humble reverence.  
This idea of EITHER we choose our own path OR its all pre-ordained, this is the limits if the scope of our minds.  God is out of time, out of space, he is not limited to finite existence so we cannot box him in.   Is it pre-ordained, pre-destined?  To God it is, he knows.   To us it is not,  we still have lives to live.  He even knows the decisions we will make about this.  You know dang well that you don't sit back on your bottom and let things go as they may.  You know you need to work to grow, also knowing that you cannot "get there".  You can only "BE there".  Right now!  At this moment, if you choose to obey God and truth then you have made it.


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## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> What I'd really like to know is if God has me dying on a certain day regardless of my diet, exercise, medical checkups, and/or lifestyle?
> 
> I'd hate to know I've wasted a lot of time for something that I have no control over. It want do me much good to pray for God to cure me if he is the one who made me eat stuff that made me sick.



Art God wrote your life's story, you see he watched it a long time ago. What you do in your life effects the will if God. Therefore since he knows what we will all do he is justified he has Predistined or Chosen us because of foreknowledge.


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## M80

Day trip said:


> Either / or thinking is the problem here.  Like we can possibly understand the mind of God and then participate as we choose through our powers of reason.  That's not faith.  I don't say this often but the OP is walking a pretty fine line with blasphemy.  I understand the concept of debate to gain knowledge, even playing devils advocate to get another point of view but even that needs to be performed with humble reverence.
> This idea of EITHER we choose our own path OR its all pre-ordained, this is the limits if the scope of our minds.  God is out of time, out of space, he is not limited to finite existence so we cannot box him in.   Is it pre-ordained, pre-destined?  To God it is, he knows.   To us it is not,  we still have lives to live.  He even knows the decisions we will make about this.  You know dang well that you don't sit back on your bottom and let things go as they may.  You know you need to work to grow, also knowing that you cannot "get there".  You can only "BE there".  Right now!  At this moment, if you choose to obey God and truth then you have made it.




Amen, I'm not saying God did murder his Son. What I'm trying to point out is if God preordained Adam to sin then he caused Jesus to die. He didn't do that so I'm not blasphemy God. Jesus choose to die for us because he Loves us. Where I highlighted what you said, we choose.


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## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> Art God wrote your life's story, you see he watched it a long time ago. What you do in your life effects the will if God. Therefore since he knows what we will all do he is justified he has Predistined or Chosen us because of foreknowledge.



So my salvation  of being chosen by God is based on God's foreknowledge of knowing I would  choose God? Or did God use his foreknowledge to choose me based on my works? Wouldn't me choosing God as a reason God chose me; backwards reasoning? 
If God used his foreknowledge to choose me, how is the final outcome any different than from Gem's belief?
I don't see either as providing a choice when it comes to salvation? Either way it's still up to God. God already knew what we would do from the foundation of the world, how can we change that now?
Maybe Day trip has the answer; we will never fully understand and it doesn't really matter that much if we believe in freewill, predestination, or some of each.
We'll go on living our lives just the same. We'll continue to praise God when good things happen and blame Satan when bad things happen. Some of us will continue to question and others will  be satisfied to let the mystery be. Some of us will eat right & exercise and others will get fat & lazy. Some of us will stop and help people and some of us will drive on by.
I'll be happy as long as I don't have to blame myself for my actions.
Just kidding as I usually always blame myself or my "Old Self."
But then look at our threads on sanctification. We know that as Christians the Holy Spirit will produce fruits within us. This could happen immediately after salvation or 27 years later. Point being where is the freewill in that?


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## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> Low blow brother.


Low blow? Have you read your OP? You are accusing Calvinist of making God a wrongdoer, a murderer.

I am being as kind as God will allow me to be. He is restraining much.



mwilliams80 said:


> You still haven't given a response about "God not willing that any should perish". If that was his will, why are people going to he11.


Because they are not part of the "any".
"Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."


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## M80

gemcgrew said:


> Low blow? Have you read your OP? You are accusing Calvinist of making God a wrongdoer, a murderer.
> 
> I am being as kind as God will allow me to be. He is restraining much.
> 
> 
> Because they are not part of the "any".
> "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."



So you say God is restraing much, are you saying the flesh wants to say more but your choosing to follow the Holy Ghost as he is leading you.


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## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> Amen, I'm not saying God did murder his Son. What I'm trying to point out is if God preordained Adam to sin then he caused Jesus to die. He didn't do that so I'm not blasphemy God. Jesus choose to die for us because he Loves us. Where I highlighted what you said, we choose.



Looking at it from a freewill prospective, God did have foreknowledge that Adam would sin and that we would need a Saviour. He knew that he would send Jesus his Son to die for our sins.


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## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> Looking at it from a freewill prospective, God did have foreknowledge that Adam would sin and that we would need a Saviour. He knew that he would send Jesus his Son to die for our sins.



Amen


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## Day trip

mwilliams80 said:


> Amen, I'm not saying God did murder his Son. What I'm trying to point out is if God preordained Adam to sin then he caused Jesus to die. He didn't do that so I'm not blasphemy God. Jesus choose to die for us because he Loves us. Where I highlighted what you said, we choose.




I think a lot of this conversation is being mislead by terminology, human language.  I see your point and agree but I also see where words used in a rather vulgar manner can be interpreted in an entirely separate light, inciting a unnecessary fervor.  To say God murdered his Son is lacking the basic reverence due to our Lord in any spiritual discussion.  It implies malevolence, not love.


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## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> So you say God is restraing much, are you saying the flesh wants to say more but your choosing to follow the Holy Ghost as he is leading you.


Brother, in this restraint, choice is not found... other than with the One who restrains. If you could understand how mindful of God that I am, how all consuming Christ is to me, only then could you understand why "my choice" is not relevant to me. Do I make choices? Yes, but I have no freedom relative to God. This is His creation. I did not assist Him in any way.

I was blind and now I see. You are helping me to see with more clarity. 

I thank God for that... and for you.


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## M80

Day trip said:


> I think a lot of this conversation is being mislead by terminology, human language.  I see your point and agree but I also see where words used in a rather vulgar manner can be interpreted in an entirely separate light, inciting a unnecessary fervor.  To say God murdered his Son is lacking the basic reverence due to our Lord in any spiritual discussion.  It implies malevolence, not love.



Again amen, I agree with everything you have said. I just can't understand how some believe that man dosnt have free will choice. The bible says whosever will. That includes everyone. If it didn't it wouldn't be in the bible. So saying Jesus didn't die for everyone is belittling Jesus.


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## M80

gemcgrew said:


> Brother, in this restraint, choice is not found... other than with the One who restrains. If you could understand how mindful of God that I am, how all consuming Christ is to me, only then could you understand why "my choice" is not relevant to me. Do I make choices? Yes, but I have no freedom relative to God. This is His creation. I did not assist Him in any way.
> 
> I was blind and now I see. You are helping me to see with more clarity.
> 
> I thank God for that... and for you.



Brother I love you and in no way would I intentually hurt. I'm just trying to figure how y'all stand so hard to y'all's believe from John Calvin. I asked in another thread about if you prayed. You say you pray cause you must. I pray not only to ask The Lord to heal but most to thank him for what he has done for me and my home. That is my choice to tell him how much I love him. It is my choice to tell my wife I love her. If we don't have free will to pray but only pray because we must or because we are compelled to pray, how would God get praise if he compells us to thank him. 
You do assist him so much.


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## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> Brother I love you and in no way would I intentually hurt.


Don't give it another thought. All is well.


mwilliams80 said:


> I'm just trying to figure how y'all stand so hard to y'all's believe from John Calvin.


I stand hard on the Word of God. My belief is not from Calvin, it is a gift from God. "Calvinist" is a label placed upon anybody who believes what God reveals about himself in the Bible.


mwilliams80 said:


> I asked in another thread about if you prayed. You say you pray cause you must. I pray not only to ask The Lord to heal but most to thank him for what he has done for me and my home.


I do as well.


mwilliams80 said:


> That is my choice to tell him how much I love him. It is my choice to tell my wife I love her.


I do not see choice as relevant. I love him because he first loved me (1 John 4:19). My love for my wife compels me to express it to her. Again, I do not see choice as relevant. I love her even when I neglect to express it.


mwilliams80 said:


> If we don't have free will to pray but only pray because we must or because we are compelled to pray, how would God get praise if he compells us to thank him.


I have never prayed, apart from being compelled to pray. I find this whole question to be silly. 


mwilliams80 said:


> You do assist him so much.


I do not help or assist God. I only serve his purpose. I rely completely upon him.


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## rjcruiser

Not a thread or question I would have thought would be started by a preacher. 

But...seeing the hatred free will baptists have towards calvinist's...I guess it makes sense.


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## gemcgrew

rjcruiser said:


> Not a thread or question I would have thought would be started by a preacher.


Rj, I entertained that very thought from the start. I may be wrong, but I do not think he has ever encountered the argument used. Do preachers also grow in truth and knowledge? I believe so. So there is definitely room for that. 


rjcruiser said:


> But...seeing the hatred free will baptists have towards calvinist's...I guess it makes sense.


Calvinism is not the issue there. Submission is.


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## Israel

Peter was asked three times..."do you love me?"

He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus said to him, "Tend My sheep. 18"Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to gird yourself and walk wherever you wished; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands and someone else will gird you, and bring you where you do not wish to go."…

Jesus allowed that Peter had once operated according to "his own will".  Jesus didn't tell him he was "free" then, nor did he tell him he was coming to a place where he would desire the will of God.

It's part of what troubles us, isn't it? I know it has troubled me, in experience. When younger, when even more stupid than now, I could recount a man who was convinced he could, and would do "things for God". In dimness, I thought that was what it was about...learning/doing "enough", (and by extension, seeking to ensure others learned/did the same) as to be a "good" servant, a good disciple, a "good believer". Oh! the folly.
"The seeing" of much wrong, of course, was the seeing of me. I was needed. (Because I desperately sought to be...I was important, because I desperately sought to be)

In all that seeking of what I ignorantly thought was the Kingdom (of my means) came perfect frustration. It is perfect. It was perfect. If nothing else, I could be used as an example of the "perfectly" exasperated man, and if  for God's pleasure I was, and to whatever extent I may still be such an example, God knows.

Nevertheless, I presumed this "growing" in Christ would take me to a place, (and others {oh! the folly} if they would but heed)...of a perfect harmony "of the self". They would come to "love" the will of God as I did, come to see as I did, come to know...as I did.
Feel free to insert (Oh! the folly).

Again, of course, ditch after ditch awaited. But, even that's a vanity, maybe I have never been once out of the ditch, and I continue to slog (God knows) along in muck and resistance...while a level path beckons. But I see hope.

The hope now, is no longer in the gross presumption that I will to will loving the will of God, but that in even the place where I know and see what I would never "choose" for myself...someone stronger, someone quite capable, someone (the only one "good") will take me where I could never want to go. In a truer sense than I have known, and am sure I have yet to learn, I "must be" carried.

Morpheus told Neo..."I didn't say it was going to be easy, only that it is the truth"
I never, maybe none of us ever, wanted to see a man so helpless to himself, and it is NOT the way I have chosen, or could have.
All the "mind" ads, the billboards inside, showed a man strong and quite sufficient to himself. I went after that... so that in the going I might finally meet the man who said "Of myself, I can do nothing" (But you look so much taller "on screen"!)
He is not ashamed at all of my folly...he tells me that's why he came to be a lamb. To ask forgiveness for all who don't know what they are doing. And get it.


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## hummerpoo

When I came to realize that, whether by my righteousness or by my unrighteousness, God would be glorified, and I would not know which; I began to desire that it would be by my righteousness, because it was there that I perceived the greater joy.  Then I despaired of my selfishness.  The only hope is the One, who is selfless.

Did Neo know why he followed the white rabbit?


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## Israel

hummerpoo said:


> When I came to realize that, whether by my righteousness or by my unrighteousness, God would be glorified, and I would not know which; I began to desire that it would be by my righteousness, because it was there that I perceived the greater joy.  Then I despaired of my selfishness.  The only hope is the One, who is selfless.
> 
> Did Neo know why he followed the white rabbit?


Bless you brother!

"For we can do nothing against the truth...but for it..."

"if we be besides ourselves, it is to the Lord, but, if in our right minds, it is for your sakes..."

I need the Lord to hold me together, just a little bit longer, (as perhaps we all do?) till these words pass away, and the little, that even now...tastes so good between us, amongst us all, breaks way to where "sane" words must even give place to the things it is not lawful to utter...here.

I think there, perhaps,  Neo might say "Oh yes....I see why, and why I needed to be told what to do...I could never have gotten here on my own".

But he also might hear "you never were...on your own. Come, I show you a mystery..."

But then, maybe nothing need be explained in the seeing of that face...face to face.

(Do you remember when hours passed looking into the eyes of your wife?)


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## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> Not a thread or question I would have thought would be started by a preacher.
> 
> But...seeing the hatred free will baptists have towards calvinist's...I guess it makes sense.



I'm not picking up any "hatred" from Mr. Williams in this thread, just a man seeking the truth. His title does have some shock value to it.

I'm OK with the Calvinest. Now those Campbellites...


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## Artfuldodger

In The Matrix "choice" was both the problem and solution.

Sometimes I like choice, sometimes I don't.


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## hummerpoo

Israel said:


> Bless you brother!
> 
> "For we can do nothing against the truth...but for it..."
> 
> "if we be besides ourselves, it is to the Lord, but, if in our right minds, it is for your sakes..."
> 
> I need the Lord to hold me together, just a little bit longer, (as perhaps we all do?) till these words pass away, and the little, that even now...tastes so good between us, amongst us all, breaks way to where "sane" words must even give place to the things it is not lawful to utter...here.
> 
> I think there, perhaps,  Neo might say "Oh yes....I see why, and why I needed to be told what to do...I could never have gotten here on my own".
> 
> But he also might hear "you never were...on your own. Come, I show you a mystery..."
> 
> But then, maybe nothing need be explained in the seeing of that face...face to face.
> 
> (Do you remember when hours passed looking into the eyes of your wife?)



With a joy that surely is a shadow of joy to come.


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## gemcgrew

hummerpoo said:


> With a joy that surely is a shadow of joy to come.


Amen!


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## M80

rjcruiser said:


> Not a thread or question I would have thought would be started by a preacher.
> 
> But...seeing the hatred free will baptists have towards calvinist's...I guess it makes sense.



No hatred from me. As you can see I've done told Gem I love him and not only him but everyone on this forum. The bible says God is love. I'm trying to help. Paul confronted Peter in the book of Galations when he got up and walked a way from the Gentiles and caused a problem. Paul helped them Jewish Christians that had brought works into salvation that it was all by grace. In this thread I see some people who believe that Jesus didn't die for the world even through the bible says so. I find that some here believe that if a Jesus didn't die for the world they have to believe that God sends people to He11. I'm trying to help. Sorry if I've come on to strong but I stand on the word of God. Some disagree and y'all have y'all points but God created us to have a choice to love him. How can some one love if they are made to love.


----------



## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> but God created us to have a choice to love him.


Can you show this from the Scriptures?


mwilliams80 said:


> How can some one love if they are made to love.


By being made to love.


----------



## rjcruiser

mwilliams80 said:


> No hatred from me. As you can see I've done told Gem I love him and not only him but everyone on this forum. The bible says God is love. I'm trying to help. Paul confronted Peter in the book of Galations when he got up and walked a way from the Gentiles and caused a problem. Paul helped them Jewish Christians that had brought works into salvation that it was all by grace. In this thread I see some people who believe that Jesus didn't die for the world even through the bible says so. I find that some here believe that if a Jesus didn't die for the world they have to believe that God sends people to He11. I'm trying to help. Sorry if I've come on to strong but I stand on the word of God. Some disagree and y'all have y'all points but God created us to have a choice to love him. How can some one love if they are made to love.



Forgive me then for reading into the post more than I should have.  Just seen from past SBC the deep disdain for "Calvinism."  When you ask most people what Calvinism is, they know very very little about it...but that they and everyone else has free will to choose right or wrong.

The original question though, is very much like the athiest that asks..."Can God create a rock so big that He can't lift it?"  Or, "If God is in control of all things, why does he allow kids to be murdered?"  Or, "why does God allow sin?"

If we have free will to choose salvation or to reject it, how can God be omniscient and omnipotent?  Either we have the power to choose our eternal destiny and God is omniscient and omnipotent in all things but salvation....or....God is omniscient and omnipotent in all things, salvation included.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

The way I see it is this:

God said " I'm gonna create something wonderful.  I know that satan is gonna mess it up, but I'm gonna do it anyway.  When he messes it up I'm gonna fix it.  I know what's gonna happen, how it's gonna go down, and everything it's gonna require of me and I'm prepared to pay that price, because in the end it's gonna be magnificent.


----------



## gemcgrew

SemperFiDawg said:


> The way I see it is this:
> 
> God said " I'm gonna create something wonderful.  I know that satan is gonna mess it up, but I'm gonna do it anyway.  When he messes it up I'm gonna fix it.  I know what's gonna happen, how it's gonna go down, and everything it's gonna require of me and I'm prepared to pay that price, because in the end it's gonna be magnificent.


----------



## gordon 2

This tread and the elect tread are great examples, all be it micro and to my view, of 'merican religious and speartual competition. This way of proceeding in a civil manner with religious and spiritual  differences is the cornerstone from which the USA was built. 

So in that spirit I'm gona plunge in the pile-up not unlike a football player that comes in late, but with such momentum as to not be able to stop himself.

So as I trip on y'all, if God is about love, if God is love, if God asks, " Do you love me?" as when God asked Peter ( John 21)...  If God craves love, as we and the poor crave love, or to be appreciated as most do... then can God be other than about us making choices in the relational context we enjoy with Him? Love is not love if it is without choices, without freedom, without tolerance, acceptance, patience etc... These are all about making choices and these are required to make love, to include, to nurture, to enjoy and experience real spiritual happiness, etc...

For me this is the cornerstone of the Kingdom which we build on. It is not a battle for ideas or spiritual competition between the notions of people whatever their reasons for them. It is life itself, the choice to grab at the hem of God's shawl. It is God himself as the all in all, becoming ever more prominent in people and in the world which were made foreign to Him by choices and competition.


.02cents.


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## formula1

*Re:*

If God made me to be a puppet for Christ, I am proud to be His puppet.

If God desires me to choose to love Him, accepting His salvation provided through Christ, there is nothing I would rather do.

If God desires to keep me out of the loop of infinite knowledge, that is what He will do.   

I trust Him! He is God after all! And He made the way of salvation!  Good enough for me! I don't need to know all things!

Humans point to scriptural evidence to prove a particular point of view.  But scripture points to God and is about God!  Man's view of God is completely irrelevant!

I've always enjoyed this scripture for it paints an image of God I can relate to:

Acts 17
24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. 26 And He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27 that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward Him and find Him. Yet He is actually not far from each one of us...

I am so thankful that He chose to be 'not far from each of us'! What a wonderful God we serve whatever your point of view!


----------



## rockinwrangler

formula1 said:


> If God made me to be a puppet for Christ, I am proud to be His puppet.
> 
> If God desires me to choose to love Him, accepting His salvation provided through Christ, there is nothing I would rather do.
> 
> If God desires to keep me out of the loop of infinite knowledge, that is what He will do.
> 
> I trust Him! He is God after all! And He made the way of salvation!  Good enough for me! I don't need to know all things!
> 
> Humans point to scriptural evidence to prove a particular point of view.  But scripture points to God and is about God!  Man's view of God is completely irrelevant!
> 
> I've always enjoyed this scripture for it paints an image of God I can relate to:
> 
> Acts 17
> 24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. 26 And He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27 that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward Him and find Him. Yet He is actually not far from each one of us...
> 
> I am so thankful that He chose to be 'not far from each of us'! What a wonderful God we serve whatever your point of view!



AMEN !!


----------



## M80

gordon 2 said:


> This tread and the elect tread are great examples, all be it micro and to my view, of 'merican religious and speartual competition. This way of proceeding in a civil manner with religious and spiritual  differences is the cornerstone from which the USA was built.
> 
> So in that spirit I'm gona plunge in the pile-up not unlike a football player that comes in late, but with such momentum as to not be able to stop himself.
> 
> So as I trip on y'all, if God is about love, if God is love, if God asks, " Do you love me?" as when God asked Peter ( John 21)...  If God craves love, as we and the poor crave love, or to be appreciated as most do... then can God be other than about us making choices in the relational context we enjoy with Him? Love is not love if it is without choices, without freedom, without tolerance, acceptance, patience etc... These are all about making choices and these are required to make love, to include, to nurture, to enjoy and experience real spiritual happiness, etc...
> 
> For me this is the cornerstone of the Kingdom which we build on. It is not a battle for ideas or spiritual competition between the notions of people whatever their reasons for them. It is life itself, the choice to grab at the hem of God's shawl. It is God himself as the all in all, becoming ever more prominent in people and in the world which were made foreign to Him by choices and competition.
> 
> 
> .02cents.



Amen Gordon


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## M80

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. (CensoredJoshua‬ Censored24‬:Censored15‬ KJV)

I choose The Lord.

Another one of choosing

And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the Lord be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word. (Censored1 Kings‬ Censored18‬:Censored21‬ KJV)


----------



## gordon 2

And God is our redeemer both for the cross but also He ever was before it.  Here Look! The prophet laments of people's choices in my view.

 Isaiah 63:16-17 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O Lord, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.

 O Lord, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.


Isaiah 64 6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.

8 But now, O Lord, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

9 Be not wroth very sore, O Lord, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, we are all thy people.

To me this has "choices" intrinsic to what Isaiah is trying to convey.  In 63 he asks God "Why did you do this to us?" And in 64 the answer comes as not because God did it, but because the hebrews did it to themselves for their choices. Later Isaiah says "God, you left us to the power of our sins."

To sin is a choice in this case, in my view. It is the people's iniquities that have take the people away from God, not God's choice ! And implied is that a return to God and a wholesome relationship with Him is a choice as well, and most important ours in Christ now as it was with them then in Yahweh. 

"Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'"


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> Art God wrote your life's story, you see he watched it a long time ago. What you do in your life effects the will if God. Therefore since he knows what we will all do he is justified he has Predistined or Chosen us because of foreknowledge.



Can you explain how this works? What did I do in the future before I was born, that effected the will of God? What foreknowledge of my life did God foresee to elect me?

Why didn't God use this same foreknowledge to elect others to doom instead of salvation?


----------



## M80

He knew before the foundation of the world you would accept him in your life. How is that hard to understand. Through forknowledge he knew you.


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> He knew before the foundation of the world you would accept him in your life. How is that hard to understand. Through forknowledge he knew you.



Because if God knew before I was born that tonight I would choose to wear my red shirt vs my blue shirt, I don't see that as much of a choice on my part. I must wear the red shirt.

If what you say is true then God also used this same foreknowledge to condemn future souls to he11, again no choice.

What can we do now to change or choose what has already been determined? Either by God or by us if our fate is sealed, where is the difference in the final outcome?

Again why preach or witness if our fate has been predetermined by us or God?

I don't have a problem with God knowing at the beginning of the world what I would do today, I just don't see it as me having a choice. Either way the final outcome is the same, it can't be altered.
I don't see this type of freewill as being much different from God's will.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Now a more important question would be that after salvation the Holy Spirit produces fruit from that person. How much freewill or choice does the individual have in this matter?
If from the Holy Spirit, where is the freewill? How important is this fruit to show salvation has been granted or achieved? When does it materialize? 
Does a freewill or predestination belief matter in this proof in the form of fruit?


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> Now a more important question would be that after salvation the Holy Spirit produces fruit from that person. How much freewill or choice does the individual have in this matter?
> If from the Holy Spirit, where is the freewill? How important is this fruit to show salvation has been granted or achieved? When does it materialize?
> Does a freewill or predestination belief matter in this proof in the form of fruit?



The bible says Quench not the spirit. That means we can mind him or not. Have you ever had a burden to visit someone but you made an excuse not to. You was arguing with god. He was leading by the spirit and you didn't obey. We must obey the spirit when he draws us to do something for him if not it will hinder someone else. I don't want people's blood upon my hands because I didnt obey the Holy Spirit when he was leading me to someone.


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> The bible says Quench not the spirit. That means we can mind him or not. Have you ever had a burden to visit someone but you made an excuse not to. You was arguing with god. He was leading by the spirit and you didn't obey. We must obey the spirit when he draws us to do something for him if not it will hinder someone else. I don't want people's blood upon my hands because I didnt obey the Holy Spirit when he was leading me to someone.



My questioning is more along the lines of this;
If God already knew before I was born of my decision to visit this person or not to visit this person tomorrow night, How can I possibly change that outcome? 
How can I be lead by the Holy Spirit to make another choice other than the one God already knew I would make?
How can God give someone another chance if he already knew how the situation was going to play out? Does God have the free will to change his mind or is he bound by his omniscience?
If I have the free will to change my destiny then God has the free will to change my destiny too. That would make God counter controlling my control.


----------



## formula1

*Re:*

I believe that God predestined a plan in Christ and in Christ you who 'believed in him' are a part of His plan.  I do not believe that 'individuals' are predestined to believe but by choice accept or reject God's plan and are either 'in Christ' or 'not in Christ' based on said acceptance and belief in Him (that is in Christ).

Now having said that, I don't believe this thought violates God's all knowing character as just because God knows the depths of the heart of man to the point of his choice does not mean He chooses for man.  He simply knows what man will do at a far deeper level than you or I.  I might also add that He could likely make every effort to create circumstances in individuals that might lead or influence one to repentance.  He just might be doing that in someone who reads this right now!  And through life experience, it seems that is what He has done in me!

So, in him (Christ) you have eternal life when you believe in him, and you have been given the Holy Spirit and sealed by the Holy Spirit, which is your guarantee!

Please know that my thoughts are the way I wrap my brain around a rather difficult subject.  I wholly trust God to correct errors in my thinking as I go.  Indeed, He has been doing that for many years now.  For me, the thing I don't want to do is to be so rigid in my belief system that I can't hear the Holy Spirit and follow God!  We all really need to (through the Word of God) train ourselves to hear Him!

God Bless to all! He is always about renewing us and giving us hope! Confusion is never where God resides!

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as He chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, 6 to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, 8 which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory.


----------



## M80

formula1 said:


> I believe that God predestined a plan in Christ and in Christ you who 'believed in him' are a part of His plan.  I do not believe that 'individuals' are predestined to believe but by choice accept or reject God's plan and are either 'in Christ' or 'not in Christ' based on said acceptance and belief in Him (that is in Christ).
> 
> Now having said that, I don't believe this thought violates God's all knowing character as just because God knows the depths of the heart of man  o the point of his choice does not mean He chooses for man.  He simply knows what man will do at a far deeper level than you or I.  I might also add that He could likely make every effort to create circumstances in individuals that might lead or influence one to repentance.  He just might be doing that in someone who reads this right now!  And through life experience, it seems that is what He has done in me!
> 
> So, in him (Christ) you have eternal life when you believe in him, and you have been given the Holy Spirit and sealed by the Holy Spirit, which is your guarantee!
> 
> Please know that my thoughts are the way I wrap my brain around a rather difficult subject.  I wholly trust God to correct errors in my thinking as I go.  Indeed, He has been doing that for many years now.  For me, the thing I don't want to do is to be so rigid in my belief system that I can't hear the Holy Spirit and follow God!  We all really need to (through the Word of God) train ourselves to hear Him!
> 
> God Bless to all! He is always about renewing us and giving us hope! Confusion is never where God resides!
> 
> Ephesians 1
> 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as He chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, 6 to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, 8 which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
> 
> 11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory.



Amen, great words, I suffer from not getting things out of my mouth right. Bless you brother.


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> My questioning is more along the lines of this;
> If God already knew before I was born of my decision to visit this person or not to visit this person tomorrow night, How can I possibly change that outcome?
> How can I be lead by the Holy Spirit to make another choice other than the one God already knew I would make?.



Your close to getting it, he does already know what decision you will make but you don't know. You don't know what will happen tomorrow but he does. Every choice you make tomorrow will be made by you. 

Think on this, why did Abraham take Isaac up the mountain to sacrifice him. God already knew what Abraham would do but Abraham didn't. You think of how much more trust in The Lord Abraham received after he saw that ram tied in the vines.


----------



## gordon 2

Philippians 4:6-7

6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

"The peace of God" talked about here, as far as can be appreciated by me , I think is about an emotional, or passionate relationship with God. It goes beyond just human words or ideas... and to where in love through Jesus, we are present to Him. And it don't much matter what we might think or not think at this point.

Now I don't know, but if I was about to undress in front of God, as it was for Adam,  I would hope that I somehow was a joy, a mystrey and somehow as a man a surprise to Him ---yet He already knew how much that I loved Him.


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> Your close to getting it, he does already know what decision you will make but you don't know. You don't know what will happen tomorrow but he does. Every choice you make tomorrow will be made by you.
> 
> Think on this, why did Abraham take Isaac up the mountain to sacrifice him. God already knew what Abraham would do but Abraham didn't. You think of how much more trust in The Lord Abraham received after he saw that ram tied in the vines.



That Bible story is way more about predestination than free will. It's full of God's promises to Abraham starting with Isaac's conception. The Ram didn't show up by coincidence. This story happened just as God wanted it to. 
If my story is already laid out by God and only unfolds for my benefit, then it's not changed by my freewill.
It might happen as you describe and I'm OK if it does happen that way but it's not freewill. I still don't get a choice. It's possible God is presenting things to happen to me to teach me about faith and love, but if I don't have a choice choosing one way or the other, it's not free will.
If God has already wrote my life story, then it's not free will.


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> That Bible story is way more about predestination than free will. It's full of God's promises to Abraham starting with Isaac's conception. The Ram didn't show up by coincidence. This story happened just as God wanted it to.
> If my story is already laid out by God and only unfolds for my benefit, then it's not changed by my freewill.
> It might happen as you describe and I'm OK if it does happen that way but it's not freewill. I still don't get a choice. It's possible God is presenting things to happen to me to teach me about faith and love, but if I don't have a choice choosing one way or the other, it's not free will.
> If God has already wrote my life story, then it's not free will.



Abraham could have not gone up the mountain but God knew what decision he would make.


----------



## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> Your close to getting it, he does already know what decision you will make but you don't know. You don't know what will happen tomorrow but he does. Every choice you make tomorrow will be made by you.


"Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand."


----------



## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> Abraham could have not gone up the mountain but God knew what decision he would make.


Was God's creation of Abraham based upon Abraham's decisions? Isn't all of God's doings "according to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord"?( Eph 3:11)

Can a man decide other than according to God's purpose?


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> Abraham could have not gone up the mountain but God knew what decision he would make.



Who provided the ram to take Isaac's place? Why didn't Abraham have the free will to not go up the mountain?
These things you might can answer but God already writing my life story doesn't give me the free will to change my story.

If God already knows who will come to Jesus for salvation, there is no possible way for us to bring someone to Jesus out of that list. If God knows this then he also knows who will not have everlasting life.
Using your line of questioning about God sacrificing Jesus as murdering him also means God has took the everlasting life away from non-Christians. Would this be considered murder also?  Unless through some type of Universal salvation we'll all be saved.
I understand your OP question is not your own belief.

You are trying to figure it out in you mind how free will and God's omniscience  can work. Predestination believers have found a much easier explanation. I just wished I believed as they do. But to do that would require a choice.


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> Who provided the ram to take Isaac's place? Why didn't Abraham have the free will to not go up the mountain?
> These things you might can answer but God already writing my life story doesn't give me the free will to change my story.
> 
> If God already knows who will come to Jesus for salvation, there is no possible way for us to bring someone to Jesus out of that list. If God knows this then he also knows who will not have everlasting life.
> Using your line of questioning about God sacrificing Jesus as murdering him also means God has took the everlasting life away from non-Christians. Would this be considered murder also?  Unless through some type of Universal salvation we'll all be saved.
> I understand your OP question is not your own belief.
> 
> You are trying to figure it out in you mind how free will and God's omniscience  can work. Predestination believers have found a much easier explanation. I just wished I believed as they do. But to do that would require a choice.



1.) God provided the ram
2.)cause he minded God to go
3.)you are living your life, God just already knows
4.)Amen, he does already know who will be saved and who won't be saved. The list is made up from individual's response to him. 
5.) you would be right in the murdering sentence also. He don't murder non Christians. They choose to go to he11 through unbelief.


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> 1.) God provided the ram
> 2.)cause he minded God to go
> 3.)you are living your life, God just already knows
> 4.)Amen, he does already know who will be saved and who won't be saved. The list is made up from individual's response to him.
> 5.) you would be right in the murdering sentence also. He don't murder non Christians. They choose to go to he11 through unbelief.



#4) If the list is already made, why have an altar call?

#5) Can we as Christians witness to them and get them off of the bad list and onto the other list? 
Can we pray for God to move them from the bad  list to the other if that person has a change of heart that God didn't know about?

Again, I don't see much difference from Gem's belief and yours. You both believe God has wrote the story of our life either by his own doing or by his foreknowledge of our doing. Either way I don't see where it's possible to change either. Unless God is willing to change as we change. Only if life is like a chess game and God changes his plan as we change our play. Only if we can pray for God to change our life story and allow us to change our life story. This would mean our life story is constantly changing by the minute. This would mean the names in the Books are constantly being moved back and forth or at least from the bad book to the Book of Life. I hope this is the way life happens. I hope I can change a lost souls mind and lead him to Christ. I hope everything wasn't settled at the beginning of time. I hope God changes his mind and will. I hope prayer has power and God will intervene. I hope he will save everyone.


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> #4) If the list is already made, why have an altar call?
> 
> #5) Can we as Christians witness to them and get them off of the bad list and onto the other list?
> Can we pray for God to move them from the bad  list to the other if that person has a change of heart that God didn't know about?
> 
> Again, I don't see much difference from Gem's belief and yours. You both believe God has wrote the story of our life either by his own doing or by his foreknowledge of our doing. Either way I don't see where it's possible to change either. Unless God is willing to change as we change. Only if life is like a chess game and God changes his plan as we change our play. Only if we can pray for God to change our life story and allow us to change our life story. This would mean our life story is constantly changing by the minute. This would mean the names in the Books are constantly being moved back and forth or at least from the bad book to the Book of Life. I hope this is the way life happens. I hope I can change a lost souls mind and lead him to Christ. I hope everything wasn't settled at the beginning of time. I hope God changes his mind and will. I hope prayer has power and God will intervene. I hope he will save everyone.



4.) because we are not made to get saved. I give an alter call every time. It is our choice to be saved. I don't know who will be saved but God does. Not because God picks and choices but because we pick him of reject him. Our choice. Now we can't be saved at any given time. Only when the Father draws us to his son John 6:44. The convicting power of the Holy Spirit will draw us to Jesus. I've seen a many of people under conviction walk out of the church after the alter call and reject The Lord. Did God make them reject, God Forbid, they choose not to come. Is it over them, not for me to say, but they had the opportunity. The bible says The Lord stands at the door and knocks, if we will let him in (salvation) he will come in and sup with us. 

5.) we better mind The Lord. I don't want anyone's blood on my hands. I want to be a good watchman.


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> 4.) because we are not made to get saved. I give an alter call every time. It is our choice to be saved. I don't know who will be saved but God does. Not because God picks and choices but because we pick him of reject him. Our choice. Now we can't be saved at any given time. Only when the Father draws us to his son John 6:44. The convicting power of the Holy Spirit will draw us to Jesus. I've seen a many of people under conviction walk out of the church after the alter call and reject The Lord. Did God make them reject, God Forbid, they choose not to come. Is it over them, not for me to say, but they had the opportunity. The bible says The Lord stands at the door and knocks, if we will let him in (salvation) he will come in and sup with us.
> 
> 5.) we better mind The Lord. I don't want anyone's blood on my hands. I want to be a good watchman.



I don't understand how God knows who will come to the altar and that person still have a choice. To me if God knows my choice before I make it then it's not free for me to make. Regardless of whether the choice was made by me and God foreknew it or it was made by God.


----------



## hobbs27

mwilliams80 said:


> 4.) because we are not made to get saved. I give an alter call every time. It is our choice to be saved. I don't know who will be saved but God does. Not because God picks and choices but because we pick him of reject him. Our choice. Now we can't be saved at any given time. Only when the Father draws us to his son John 6:44. The convicting power of the Holy Spirit will draw us to Jesus.



Didn't you just contradict yourself?



> The bible says The Lord stands at the door and knocks, if we will let him in (salvation) he will come in and sup with us.



AMEN! Just more proof Revelation is in our past and present but not waiting for it in the future.


----------



## formula1

*Re:*



Artfuldodger said:


> I don't understand how God knows who will come to the altar and that person still have a choice. To me if God knows my choice before I make it then it's not free for me to make. Regardless of whether the choice was made by me and God foreknew it or it was made by God.



Art,

Suppose your dearest friend knew your favorite college football team was Alabama and you would like nothing better than to attend the SEC Championship this weekend.   Because he knew that, he bought you tickets and invited you to go. Your friend knows you will go  even though you never saw the tickets!  You trusted your friend had the tickets and proceed to get ready for the big game.  And when you friend invited you, it was easy for you to accept, but your friend never forced you to go!!!  What he did know is how to make the invite very appealing!!!

God didn't make you choose His way but He did provide a way for all to come to repentance and He makes it appealing to us each according to what He knows of us in His infinite wisdom.  He wants us to choose the life of faith in Christ and He will go to great lengths to create life circumstances to see that faith comes to us.  Yet never did He force upon us a choice.  You have to choose to go to the game!!!

God bless!!!


----------



## M80

formula1 said:


> Art,
> 
> Suppose your dearest friend knew your favorite college football team was Alabama and you would like nothing better than to attend the SEC Championship this weekend.   Because he knew that, he bought you tickets and invited you to go. Your friend knows you will go  even though you never saw the tickets!  You trusted your friend had the tickets and proceed to get ready for the big game.  And when you friend invited you, it was easy for you to accept, but your friend never forced you to go!!!  What he did know is how to make the invite very appealing!!!
> 
> God didn't make you choose His way but He did provide a way for all to come to repentance and He makes it appealing to us each according to what He knows of us in His infinite wisdom.  He wants us to choose the life of faith in Christ and He will go to great lengths to create life circumstances to see that faith comes to us.  Yet never did He force upon us a choice.  You have to choose to go to the game!!!
> 
> God bless!!!



Again, you have a great way of explaining. God bless you


----------



## M80

hobbs27 said:


> Didn't you just contradict yourself?
> 
> 
> 
> AMEN! Just more proof Revelation is in our past and present but not waiting for it in the future.




1.) let me rephrase. It is our choice when the father draws. Sorry. You can't drive a car off a cliff living a worldly life and right before it hits the bottom cry out to God. We get saved when he is calling. 

2.). Trinity, The Lord is the Holy Ghost


----------



## M80

gemcgrew said:


> "Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand."



Scripture ??


----------



## hobbs27

mwilliams80 said:


> 1.) let me rephrase. It is our choice when the father draws. Sorry. You can't drive a car off a cliff living a worldly life and right before it hits the bottom cry out to God. We get saved when he is calling.
> 
> 2.). Trinity, The Lord is the Holy Ghost



Thanks, I think we're pretty close on understanding of the plan of salvation.

 You aren't saved by acts of good or raising your hand or by quoting a prayer or kneeling at an altar, but by surrendering to His calling.


----------



## rjcruiser

mwilliams80 said:


> 1.) let me rephrase. It is our choice when the father draws. Sorry. You can't drive a car off a cliff living a worldly life and right before it hits the bottom cry out to God. We get saved when he is calling.



Not to digress and chase a rabbit here, but.....Isn't that kinda what happened to the thief on the cross?


----------



## M80

hobbs27 said:


> Thanks, I think we're pretty close on understanding of the plan of salvation.
> 
> You aren't saved by acts of good or raising your hand or by quoting a prayer or kneeling at an altar, but by surrendering to His calling.



For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. The Lord knows the heart. When someone is truly born again I believe the will any to tell someone about. Words don't save but turning to The Lord when he is calling and believeth he is your savior.


----------



## M80

rjcruiser said:


> Not to digress and chase a rabbit here, but.....Isn't that kinda what happened to the thief on the cross?



Not to chase it with you but salvation hadn't been completed yet. Jesus hadn't died on the cross. I know you and gem and hummerpoo dosnt believe that though.


----------



## rjcruiser

mwilliams80 said:


> Not to chase it with you but salvation hadn't been completed yet. Jesus hadn't died on the cross. I know you and gem and hummerpoo dosnt believe that though.



???  so now I'm confused.

So you're saying he wasn't saved? Or he was saved?

Or...no one was saved until Jesus died?


----------



## M80

rjcruiser said:


> ???  so now I'm confused.
> 
> So you're saying he wasn't saved? Or he was saved?
> 
> Or...no one was saved until Jesus died?



Your are correct. The blood of bulls and goats can not take away sin. It was the precious blood of Jesus that washes away our sins.


----------



## rjcruiser

mwilliams80 said:


> Your are correct. The blood of bulls and goats can not take away sin. It was the precious blood of Jesus that washes away our sins.





So what happened to all of the OT Saints...or all the saints up until the time Jesus died?

They weren't saved?  Hebrews 11 seems to disagree with you.


----------



## hobbs27

rjcruiser said:


> So what happened to all of the OT Saints...or all the saints up until the time Jesus died?
> 
> They weren't saved?  Hebrews 11 seems to disagree with you.



They couldnt have been saved, Jesus is the only way and they died in the hope of Christ coming to give them eternal life. Thats why they were in hades, dead spiritually, ie: seperated from God. Through Jesus, we have eternal life { salvation } 

 Christ went to the center of the earth and led the captives out of captivity....He introduced the Gospel to them in Abrahams bosom for eternal life!


----------



## hummerpoo

mwilliams80 said:


> For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. The Lord knows the heart. When someone is truly born again I believe the will any to tell someone about. Words don't save but turning to The Lord when he is calling and believeth he is your savior.



Jeremiah 24:
7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.
Immediate context: vss. 5-10

Ezekiel 11:19
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Immediate context: vss.15-21

Romans 2:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, by the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Immediate Context: Just start at 1:1 and keep on going.

It seems that God claims the condition of the heart.


----------



## Artfuldodger

formula1 said:


> Art,
> 
> Suppose your dearest friend knew your favorite college football team was Alabama and you would like nothing better than to attend the SEC Championship this weekend.   Because he knew that, he bought you tickets and invited you to go. Your friend knows you will go  even though you never saw the tickets!  You trusted your friend had the tickets and proceed to get ready for the big game.  And when you friend invited you, it was easy for you to accept, but your friend never forced you to go!!!  What he did know is how to make the invite very appealing!!!
> 
> God didn't make you choose His way but He did provide a way for all to come to repentance and He makes it appealing to us each according to what He knows of us in His infinite wisdom.  He wants us to choose the life of faith in Christ and He will go to great lengths to create life circumstances to see that faith comes to us.  Yet never did He force upon us a choice.  You have to choose to go to the game!!!
> 
> God bless!!!



While this is a wonderful story it speaks nothing of God's foreknowledge of our choices before we make them.
My friend would know I would accept the tickets because I'm a fan. This is completely different from a depraved sinner not looking for God in the first place.
If God is creating life circumstances for me, do I still have a choice to add or take away from God's life circumstance creations? Is my freewill compatible with God's will?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> They couldnt have been saved, Jesus is the only way and they died in the hope of Christ coming to give them eternal life. Thats why they were in hades, dead spiritually, ie: seperated from God. Through Jesus, we have eternal life { salvation }
> 
> Christ went to the center of the earth and led the captives out of captivity....He introduced the Gospel to them in Abrahams bosom for eternal life!



I thought salvation started at 70AD bringing in the New Covenant?

Jesus never had the power to save or forgive anyone of their sins before his death?


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I thought salvation started at 70AD bringing in the New Covenant?
> 
> Jesus never had the power to save or forgive anyone of their sins before his death?



In its fullness, yes! Remember though there was some that were resurrected after His resurrection.... I am just trying to avoid my position since its too biblical for some and they find it controversial to their traditional beliefs.


----------



## formula1

Artfuldodger said:


> While this is a wonderful story it speaks nothing of God's foreknowledge of our choices before we make them.
> My friend would know I would accept the tickets because I'm a fan. This is completely different from a depraved sinner not looking for God in the first place.
> If God is creating life circumstances for me, do I still have a choice to add or take away from God's life circumstance creations? Is my freewill compatible with God's will?



It's not about you but rather about God's love for you! If you can't see that I cannot help further. God bless!


----------



## Artfuldodger

formula1 said:


> It's not about you but rather about God's love for you! If you can't see that I cannot help further. God bless!



I'm sorry but I think you are trying to help me see something that's completely different from what I'm trying to see.

I do understand it's not about me and is about God's love.
I believe in freewill and predestination. I just don't completely understand how they co-exist if God already knows my choices. If God already knows who'll accept the tickets, how can they now refuse them?
If God knew from the beginning of time that I would choose Jesus, how can I possibly not? How can I now change my own destiny?


----------



## formula1

*re:*

Not at all!

God's plan for all is predestined in Christ. God's people become God's children when they choose His plan in Christ by faith.

Perhaps u don't accept it as I described. The great thing is you don't have to. Rejoice then in your joyful receiving of God's plan for you in Christ, if indeed you believe in Him and have received Him.

I really tried my best to help you understand it. I'm sorry if I failed you. The truth is the tickets can be rejected and are everyday, even when the gift is great and free.  There are plenty who walked away from salvation (the gift).

How can any one escape if we neglect such a great salvation!


----------



## M80

formula1 said:


> Not at all!
> 
> God's plan for all is predestined in Christ. God's people become God's children when they choose His plan in Christ by faith.
> 
> Perhaps u don't accept it as I described. The great thing is you don't have to. Rejoice then in your joyful receiving of God's plan for you in Christ, if indeed you believe in Him and have received Him.
> 
> I really tried my best to help you understand it. I'm sorry if I failed you. The truth is the tickets can be rejected and are everyday, even when the gift is great and free.  There are plenty who walked away from salvation (the gift).
> 
> How can any one escape if we neglect such a great salvation!



Amen


----------



## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> Scripture ??


Yes.


----------



## M80

gemcgrew said:


> Yes.



Where.


----------



## gemcgrew

formula1 said:


> God's people become God's children when they choose His plan in Christ by faith.


We have to choose God in order to be his child? Does that make sense to you? Did you have to choose your parents in order to be a child of your parents?


----------



## M80

mwilliams80 said:


> Where.




There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the Lord, that shall stand. (Proverbs‬ 19‬:21 KJV)

Counsel and purpose mean differant things.


----------



## M80

gemcgrew said:


> We have to choose God in order to be his child? Does that make sense to you? Did you have to choose your parents in order to be a child of your parents?



For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. (Galations‬ 3:26‬ KJV)

Yep, thank God he has adopted me.


----------



## formula1

*Re:*



gemcgrew said:


> We have to choose God in order to be his child? Does that make sense to you? Did you have to choose your parents in order to be a child of your parents?



Romans 4:3
For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”

Acts 2
37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

Choose and believe are synonymous in my vocabulary, as is repentance!  Nothing more than that!

God requires an action in the spiritual man and that is belief in Christ and genuine repentance. Can you be saved without belief and repentance?  It is nothing more than our response to God for the gift He has called us to receive!

John 3
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through Him. 18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.


----------



## gemcgrew

formula1 said:


> Choose and believe are synonymous in my vocabulary, as is repentance!  Nothing more than that!


Ah, I see. In that case, please consider Ephesians 1:19.
"And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who (believe, choose, repent), according to the working of his mighty power"

Even in your own vocabulary, have I not been saying this all along? Where is the voluntary act of the creature?


----------



## gemcgrew

hummerpoo said:


> Jeremiah 24:
> 7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.
> Immediate context: vss. 5-10
> 
> Ezekiel 11:19
> 19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
> Immediate context: vss.15-21
> 
> Romans 2:
> 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, by the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
> Immediate Context: Just start at 1:1 and keep on going.
> 
> It seems that God claims the condition of the heart.


It seems so.

"He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants."(Psalm 105:25)

"Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee."(1 Kings 22:23)

"O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance."(Isaiah 63:17)

"The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will."(Proverbs 21:1)


----------



## formula1

*Re:*

Ephesians 1:19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His great might 

Just to be sure I understand your point of view, is it correct for me to say that 'believing'(i.e. 'toward us who believe') is the requirement for God to grant us the 'immeasurable greatness of His power' unto salvation 'according to the working of His great might' ?

And to your question, isn't (believe, choose, repent) a voluntary act of the creature? If not, tell me why not from your point of view?

I am really trying to understand your point of view and how it could be different, if it is at all!


----------



## hobbs27

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved , and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

God's will is that all be saved, man's will determines who will be saved. The path has been made.


----------



## hummerpoo

hobbs27 said:


> ...man's will determines who will be saved...



Rm. 9:
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God?


----------



## hobbs27

hummerpoo said:


> Rm. 9:
> 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
> 
> 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God?



This chapter in Romans and Ch 10, 11. Has nothing to do with God's calling of individuals but Paul's answer for why so many Jews were rejecting Christ. The Jew thought they were born into God's will and all they had to do was be obedient to the Law. 
 Paul is preaching Christ to the Gentile, and it may have seemed to them if  this Hebrew teaches of the God of Abraham why are so few Jews following the teaching?  He explains in this Chapter that it not of geneology but of God's will He will have mercy....and He has mercy on those that have faith in Christ!


----------



## rjcruiser

hobbs27 said:


> They couldnt have been saved, Jesus is the only way and they died in the hope of Christ coming to give them eternal life. Thats why they were in hades, dead spiritually, ie: seperated from God. Through Jesus, we have eternal life { salvation }
> 
> Christ went to the center of the earth and led the captives out of captivity....He introduced the Gospel to them in Abrahams bosom for eternal life!



Hmm......don't you mean sheol?  A resting place?  Not Hades or hel!?

They didn't have access to God the Father under the old covenant, but they were saved by their faith.  Read Hebrews for that.

They were saved under the old covenant as that was what they were under at the time of their lives.



mwilliams80 said:


> Yep, thank God he has adopted me.



The adoption process is exactly like that of salvation.  

When you adopt a child, do they get to choose their parents?  No...of course not.  The parents choose the child.


----------



## hummerpoo

hobbs27 said:


> This chapter in Romans and Ch 10, 11. Has nothing to do with God's calling of individuals but Paul's answer for why so many Jews were rejecting Christ. The Jew thought they were born into God's will and all they had to do was be obedient to the Law.
> Paul is preaching Christ to the Gentile, and it may have seemed to them if  this Hebrew teaches of the God of Abraham why are so few Jews following the teaching?  He explains in this Chapter that it not of geneology but of God's will He will have mercy....and He has mercy on those that have faith in Christ!



Paul earlier spent  a couple of chapters clearly and thoroughly explaining that there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile.  Your statement doesn't even come close to fitting the immediate context, but I guess if you can buy it ...


----------



## hobbs27

rjcruiser said:


> Hmm......don't you mean sheol?  A resting place?  Not Hades or hel!?



No. I meant exactly what I put. With a minimal amount of research you will find that Sheol is Hades. The translation matters. In hebrew it is translated as Sheol in Greek it is Hades. 

With a little more research you will find there were compartments within hades, Abrahams bosom being a place of comfort , and the place the rich man went was a place of torments but both were within hades.

 With a lot more research you will find there is no such place as he11 defined by the english as a place of eternal torments in the bible. There's a lake of fire, but everytime the word he11 is used in scripture it does not mean a place of eternal torments.



> They didn't have access to God the Father under the old covenant, but they were saved by their faith.  Read Hebrews for that.
> 
> They were saved under the old covenant as that was what they were under at the time of their lives.



 The Old Covenant was ruled by the law. There was no salvation in the law.


----------



## hobbs27

hummerpoo said:


> Paul earlier spent  a couple of chapters clearly and thoroughly explaining that there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile.  Your statement doesn't even come close to fitting the immediate context, but I guess if you can buy it ...



Amen on the no difference! It is faith not geneolgy.


----------



## M80

Saying this very humbly so don't take this wrong. I  know we can't talk about versions of the bible, but seeing I started this thread, if using bible verses to debate this subject please use KJV. Admins if this starts anything bad by all means delete. Thanks.


----------



## hobbs27

mwilliams80 said:


> Saying this very humbly so don't take this wrong. I  know we can't talk about versions of the bible, but seeing I started this thread, if using bible verses to debate this subject please use KJV. Admins if this starts anything bad by all means delete. Thanks.



I'll use whatever version you want, there's only a few I wont standby.....but when using the KJV are you ok with me pointing out the greek or hebrew word that was translated from?


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> Saying this very humbly so don't take this wrong. I  know we can't talk about versions of the bible, but seeing I started this thread, if using bible verses to debate this subject please use KJV. Admins if this starts anything bad by all means delete. Thanks.



If you are asking that we use the KJV only, to discuss this thread, is weird. Why are you asking this of us?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> This chapter in Romans and Ch 10, 11. Has nothing to do with God's calling of individuals but Paul's answer for why so many Jews were rejecting Christ. The Jew thought they were born into God's will and all they had to do was be obedient to the Law.
> Paul is preaching Christ to the Gentile, and it may have seemed to them if  this Hebrew teaches of the God of Abraham why are so few Jews following the teaching?  He explains in this Chapter that it not of geneology but of God's will He will have mercy....and He has mercy on those that have faith in Christ!



I see Romans 9 as all about predestination with Paul even giving examples of God having mercy on whom he will have mercy and the Potter making the clay for different purposes. Individuals are presented as examples not just a nation. Besides a nation is made up of individuals.
God even predestined the elder son to serve the younger. God let an older barren lady have a son. Children not yet even born being elected to do certain things. Individuals mind you.  
Individuals like the Pharaoh  were mentioned by Paul as an example of the Potter making a vessel for dishonour. 
Now I will say that God does make individuals for his purposes which would include Nations. His religion has a lot to do with nations. Maybe it started out as a National Plan but God changed it to a Universal Plan after the Nation rejected it. But wait that would require free will.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> If you are asking that we use the KJV only, to discuss this thread, is weird. Why are you asking this of us?


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I see Romans 9 as all about predestination with Paul even giving examples of God having mercy on whom he will have mercy and the Potter making the clay for different purposes. Individuals are presented as examples not just a nation. Besides a nation is made up of individuals.
> God even predestined the elder son to serve the younger. God let an older barren lady have a son. Children not yet even born being elected to do certain things. Individuals mind you.
> Individuals like the Pharaoh  were mentioned by Paul as an example of the Potter making a vessel for dishonour.
> Now I will say that God does make individuals for his purposes which would include Nations. His religion has a lot to do with nations. Maybe it started out as a National Plan but God changed it to a Universal Plan after the Nation rejected it. But wait that would require free will.



9 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.


  Guess I see it more from a covenant view. I see Romans 9 as Gods dealing with Israel in the past, Romans 10 as His dealings in that present and Romans 11 dealing with Israel in their short lived  future.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> 9 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
> 
> 6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
> 
> 
> Guess I see it more from a covenant view. I see Romans 9 as Gods dealing with Israel in the past, Romans 10 as His dealings in that present and Romans 11 dealing with Israel in their short lived  future.



It is about Israel, why does that change that it is predestined or even controlled by God? 
Why is predestiny of a nation accepted but not of individuals? 
Are God's vague predictions OK but not when it comes to individuals?
In Romans 9, what was Paul's purpose of bringing up Pharaoh, children being elected before being born, a barren old lady having a child, the Potter making a vessel for dishonor, children being elected for certain purposes before even being born. These children never even had a chance to be good or bad. God didn't say "I picked one over the other because I foreknew one would be good and the other bad." God doesn't choose us based on his foreknowledge of our righteousness.

This is a covenant view and a nation view but it doesn't change anything about predestination.
Do you view Jesus coming to earth as our Savior as a covenant view or a free will view?
How do you pick between God's prophesy being of his will or ours? In other words is God predicting what we will do of our own free will or what he is causing?


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> It is about Israel, why does that change that it is predestined or even controlled by God?
> Why is predestiny of a nation accepted but not of individuals?
> Are God's vague predictions OK but not when it comes to individuals?
> In Romans 9, what was Paul's purpose of bringing up Pharaoh, children being elected before being born, a barren old lady having a child, the Potter making a vessel for dishonor, children being elected for certain purposes before even being born. These children never even had a chance to be good or bad. God didn't say "I picked one over the other because I foreknew one would be good and the other bad." God doesn't choose us based on his foreknowledge of our righteousness.
> 
> This is a covenant view and a nation view but it doesn't change anything about predestination.
> Do you view Jesus coming to earth as our Savior as a covenant view or a free will view?
> How do you pick between God's prophesy being of his will or ours? In other words is God predicting what we will do of our own free will or what he is causing?



The message puts it this way at the end of Romans 9.

_How can we sum this up? All those people who didn’t seem interested in what God was doing actually embraced what God was doing as he straightened out their lives. And Israel, who seemed so interested in reading and talking about what God was doing, missed it. How could they miss it? Because instead of trusting God, they took over. They were absorbed in what they themselves were doing. They were so absorbed in their “God projects” that they didn’t notice God right in front of them, like a huge rock in the middle of the road. And so they stumbled into him and went sprawling. Isaiah (again!) gives us the metaphor for pulling this together:


Careful! I’ve put a huge stone on the road to Mount Zion,
    a stone you can’t get around.
But the stone is me! If you’re looking for me,
    you’ll find me on the way, not in the way.
_

what was Israels offense? Read these from Matthew 23




13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 14Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredation.

15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored than yourselves.

16Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! 17Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? 18And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. 19Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? 20Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. 21And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. 22And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. 26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. 28Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredation of CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredCensored

34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.



37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.


So its not about individuals being predistined to salvation but how Israel failed to let God be Lord and rose themselves up in pride which is unbelief---they were comitting adultery, and were divorced in 70 ad, and whosoever will was married in the new covenant, and now salvation is given from the river of life freely!


----------



## M80

hobbs27 said:


> I'll use whatever version you want, there's only a few I wont standby.....but when using the KJV are you ok with me pointing out the greek or hebrew word that was translated from?



Yes sir, you know it.


----------



## rjcruiser

hobbs27 said:


> The Old Covenant was ruled by the law. There was no salvation in the law.



True, but they were saved by their faith.  Look at Hebrews 11.



rjcruiser said:


> So what happened to all of the OT Saints...or all the saints up until the time Jesus died?
> 
> They weren't saved?  Hebrews 11 seems to disagree with you.



Would like to see a response to this from MWilliams.



rjcruiser said:


> The adoption process is exactly like that of salvation.
> 
> When you adopt a child, do they get to choose their parents?  No...of course not.  The parents choose the child.



anyone?


----------



## hobbs27

rjcruiser said:


> True, but they were saved by their faith.  Look at Hebrews 11.



I did. I see faith brought them a good report but not eternal life.verses 39&40 explains this IMO.


----------



## rjcruiser

hobbs27 said:


> I did. I see faith brought them a good report but not eternal life.verses 39&40 explains this IMO.



Faith was the proof of their salvation, right?

Or am I reading that wrong?

And as far as the thief on the cross....is Paradise not heaven? or do you see that as a different place than sheol/hades.


----------



## hobbs27

rjcruiser said:


> Faith was the proof of their salvation, right?
> 
> Or am I reading that wrong?
> 
> And as far as the thief on the cross....is Paradise not heaven? or do you see that as a different place than sheol/hades.



No paradise was not heaven, it was Abraham's bosom which was a compartment in Hades, which was a resting place for both the righteous and unrighteous. Where Lazarus and the rich man were...only separated by a gulf.

Jesus did not ascend to the Father in heaven the day he died on the cross, but met the thief on the cross in paradise that day.

The OT saints still had to wait on the shed blood and accept Christ to get to the Father. I think this is why Christ went to paradise first.


----------



## rjcruiser

hobbs27 said:


> No paradise was not heaven, it was Abraham's bosom which was a compartment in Hades, which was a resting place for both the righteous and unrighteous. Where Lazarus and the rich man were...only separated by a gulf.
> 
> Jesus did not ascend to the Father in heaven the day he died on the cross, but met the thief on the cross in paradise that day.
> 
> The OT saints still had to wait on the shed blood and accept Christ to get to the Father. I think this is why Christ went to paradise first.



Was not Christ's blood shed that day?  So Paradise could be heaven, correct?

Or did the salvation not take effect until Day2 or resurrection day?


----------



## hobbs27

rjcruiser said:


> Was not Christ's blood shed that day?  So Paradise could be heaven, correct?
> 
> Or did the salvation not take effect until Day2 or resurrection day?



No paradise could not have been heaven. Christ had not ascended yet even days after the resurrection.


----------



## M80

hobbs27 said:


> No paradise was not heaven, it was Abraham's bosom which was a compartment in Hades, which was a resting place for both the righteous and unrighteous. Where Lazarus and the rich man were...only separated by a gulf.
> 
> Jesus did not ascend to the Father in heaven the day he died on the cross, but met the thief on the cross in paradise that day.
> 
> The OT saints still had to wait on the shed blood and accept Christ to get to the Father. I think this is why Christ went to paradise first.



Amen, this is how I believe


----------



## M80

rjcruiser said:


> Was not Christ's blood shed that day?  So Paradise could be heaven, correct?
> 
> Or did the salvation not take effect until Day2 or resurrection day?



Resurrection.


----------



## rjcruiser

hobbs27 said:


> No paradise could not have been heaven. Christ had not ascended yet even days after the resurrection.



So you believe that for the time Christ was in the tomb, He was either on this earth, or in Hades/Sheol...but not in Heaven?

Scripture? or just an interpretation of scripture?



mwilliams80 said:


> Resurrection.



Interesting.  Then why did the temple veil rip when He died and not when He arose from the grave?

I haven't given this a super amount of thought....so I'm not trying to say I'm right and you're wrong...just pointing to issues I see.


----------



## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> So you believe that for the time Christ was in the tomb, He was either on this earth, or in Hades/Sheol...but not in Heaven?
> 
> Scripture? or just an interpretation of scripture?



Wasn't this before Jesus said he had yet to ascent to his Father? Didn't he go somewhere to preach before he resurrected?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> The message puts it this way at the end of Romans 9.
> 
> So its not about individuals being predistined to salvation but how Israel failed to let God be Lord and rose themselves up in pride which is unbelief---they were comitting adultery, and were divorced in 70 ad, and whosoever will was married in the new covenant, and now salvation is given from the river of life freely!



I didn't say it was about salvation being predestined. I was just showing examples of God taking away Individuals free will as in the example of whose hearts he hardened as in Pharaoh . And whose hearts he didn't harden but lead on a different path of God's choosing as in Abraham, Sarah getting pregnant, and the story of Esau & Isaac not getting a choice. Their destiny was determined by God before they were even born. They had never done anything good or bad. They were individuals.


----------



## M80

hobbs27 said:


> No paradise could not have been heaven. Christ had not ascended yet even days after the resurrection.



Not quite sure where you get this but according to Hebrew 9 Jesus went to heaven and purged it with his on blood. I believe not only he descended but also he ascended to heaven before he was resurrected.


----------



## gemcgrew

rjcruiser said:


> Was not Christ's blood shed that day?  So Paradise could be heaven, correct?


Revelation 2:7


rjcruiser said:


> Or did the salvation not take effect until Day2 or resurrection day?


The resurrection is the evidence of our Savior. Salvation is eternal. (2 Timothy 1, Romans 8, Ephesians 1)


----------



## rjcruiser

mwilliams80 said:


> Not quite sure where you get this but according to Hebrew 9 Jesus went to heaven and purged it with his on blood. I believe not only he descended but also he ascended to heaven
> before he was resurrected.



This is how I interpret it as well.

But, I read it as Christ seeing the theif in heaven that same day.



gemcgrew said:


> Revelation 2:7
> 
> The resurrection is the evidence of our Savior. Salvation is eternal. (2 Timothy 1, Romans 8, Ephesians 1)



Yes...I agree...the resurrection is the proof that Christ had power over death.....and yes, I also agree our salvation is eternal.


----------



## hobbs27

mwilliams80 said:


> Not quite sure where you get this but according to Hebrew 9 Jesus went to heaven and purged it with his on blood. I believe not only he descended but also he ascended to heaven before he was resurrected.



John 20:17 makes my point very clear!


----------



## M80

hobbs27 said:


> John 20:17 makes my point very clear!



I see, thanks. So he ascended the first day of the week which was the day he was ressurected.


----------



## hobbs27

mwilliams80 said:


> I see, thanks. So he ascended the first day of the week which was the day he was ressurected.



He ascended 10 days before pentecost which means it would have been 40 days after the resurrection.


----------



## rjcruiser

So why was the temple veil ripped upon his dedeath?   That signified us having acces to God the Father through his death, right? 

Also, what about Matt 27:52?


----------



## hobbs27

rjcruiser said:


> So why was the temple veil ripped upon his dedeath?   That signified us having acces to God the Father through his death, right?
> 
> Also, what about Matt 27:52?



It appears when reading this that the event was immediately after He gave up the ghost. I struggled with this too until an old preacher pointed out to me in vs 53. (After His resurrection).  So there is a time lapse from His death to the graves opening.

And the veil being torn is indeed symbolic of us having access to God.....but until we've gone through all these basics. I don't feel comfortable eexplaining when exactly that happened.


----------



## rjcruiser

Also...back to paradise being heaven....the wors was used 3x in NT and it seems as if all 3 are referencing Heaven imo. 2 cor 12:4, rev 2:7 and luke 23:43. 

Don't you think that when Christ is telling Mary Magdalene that he has not yet ascended, that was his permanent ascension he was referring to? That ascension that took place 40 days later?


----------



## hobbs27

rjcruiser said:


> Also...back to paradise being heaven....the wors was used 3x in NT and it seems as if all 3 are referencing Heaven imo. 2 cor 12:4, rev 2:7 and luke 23:43.
> 
> Don't you think that when Christ is telling Mary Magdalene that he has not yet ascended, that was his permanent ascension he was referring to? That ascension that took place 40 days later?


See if you can tie all this together and I'll gladly expound on it later when I have more time. Thanks
Ephesians 4:9
Matthew 12:40
Luke 23:42-43
Ephesians 4:8-10
2 Corinthians 12


----------



## M80

hobbs27 said:


> He ascended 10 days before pentecost which means it would have been 40 days after the resurrection.



He let Thomas and the diciples touch him but not Mary, it seems he ascended before he let them receive the Holy Spirit and purge heaven


----------



## hobbs27

mwilliams80 said:


> He let Thomas and the diciples touch him but not Mary, it seems he ascended before he let them receive the Holy Spirit and purge heaven



Did He? I know He offered, but did Thomas the doubter actually touch him or did he finally show faith? Scripture doesn't say, does it?


----------



## M80

hobbs27 said:


> Did He? I know He offered, but did Thomas the doubter actually touch him or did he finally show faith? Scripture doesn't say, does it?



We'll he told Mary don't but told the rest touch. Something was differant


----------



## hobbs27

mwilliams80 said:


> We'll he told Mary don't but told the rest touch. Something was differant



Maybe it was all about faith, Mary needed faith to not cling on to her son but let Him go. Thomas needed faith to believe without physically  touching, and Jesus gave them commands and Mary obeyed and Thomas realized his foolishness and did not touch----(freewill).


----------



## Israel

Blessed is the man.

God's justice is perfect.

He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death. However, if he did not lie in wait, but God delivered him into his hand, then I will appoint for you a place where he may flee. But if a man acts with premeditation against his neighbor, to kill him by treachery, you shall take him from My altar, that he may die.

Forgive them Father, they know not what they do.

A man who is awoken to his slaughter of the Son of God is forgiven on his basis of receiving the truth that he does not know what he has done.
It is good to wake up, stay there, awake, and flee to the place appointed. Restitution is provided in this agreement, "I have unknowingly taken your son, then I will be as your son to you, and you will do with me as you wish, your justice is perfect."


A fleeing man knows for this justice to be served, all else must be left behind.

Here, a man may learn where mercy has triumphed...in great surprise.

He may learn what has been bought and brought for him in his flight.

 “If any man come to Me and hate not his father and mother, and wife and children, and brethren and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.


----------



## gemcgrew

Israel said:


> Blessed is the man.
> 
> God's justice is perfect.
> 
> He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death. However, if he did not lie in wait, but God delivered him into his hand, then I will appoint for you a place where he may flee. But if a man acts with premeditation against his neighbor, to kill him by treachery, you shall take him from My altar, that he may die.
> 
> Forgive them Father, they know not what they do.
> 
> A man who is awoken to his slaughter of the Son of God is forgiven on his basis of receiving the truth that he does not know what he has done.
> It is good to wake up, stay there, awake, and flee to the place appointed. Restitution is provided in this agreement, "I have unknowingly taken your son, then I will be as your son to you, and you will do with me as you wish, your justice is perfect."
> 
> 
> A fleeing man knows for this justice to be served, all else must be left behind.
> 
> Here, a man may learn where mercy has triumphed...in great surprise.
> 
> He may learn what has been bought and brought for him in his flight.
> 
> “If any man come to Me and hate not his father and mother, and wife and children, and brethren and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.


Beautiful!


----------



## hummerpoo

Israel said:


> Blessed is the man.
> 
> God's justice is perfect.
> 
> He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death. However, if he did not lie in wait, but God delivered him into his hand, then I will appoint for you a place where he may flee. But if a man acts with premeditation against his neighbor, to kill him by treachery, you shall take him from My altar, that he may die.
> 
> Forgive them Father, they know not what they do.
> 
> A man who is awoken to his slaughter of the Son of God is forgiven on his basis of receiving the truth that he does not know what he has done.
> It is good to wake up, stay there, awake, and flee to the place appointed. Restitution is provided in this agreement, "I have unknowingly taken your son, then I will be as your son to you, and you will do with me as you wish, your justice is perfect."
> 
> 
> A fleeing man knows for this justice to be served, all else must be left behind.
> 
> Here, a man may learn where mercy has triumphed...in great surprise.
> 
> He may learn what has been bought and brought for him in his flight.
> 
> “If any man come to Me and hate not his father and mother, and wife and children, and brethren and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.



Here, on this forum, and elsewhere we hear much said about the meaning of the word “all” in Scripture.  Interesting that we don’t start at the other end, so to speak, with the term “all in all”.  I think it is only found twice: once in reference God’s position in time, and once in reference to God’s position in eternity.


----------



## Harbuck

mwilliams80 said:


> Ok instead of murder he choose to kill his son.



Your thinking to small. Think big picture. If you haven't already go and read my post in the topic about the oneness of God. The post that deals with who Jesus is. He is the seed not dust as Adam was therefore God whew that Satan had no claim to Jesus. Our earthly lives mean little when compared to eternity. God providing "himself" a sacrifice for our sins was a win win for us and God. We got a new chance to be with him and he with us. He must love us dearly or he wouldn't have went to so much trouble to provide us a way to have a relationship with him again.


----------



## M80

Harbuck said:


> Your thinking to small. Think big picture. If you haven't already go and read my post in the topic about the oneness of God. The post that deals with who Jesus is. He is the seed not dust as Adam was therefore God whew that Satan had no claim to Jesus. Our earthly lives mean little when compared to eternity. God providing "himself" a sacrifice for our sins was a win win for us and God. We got a new chance to be with him and he with us. He must love us dearly or he wouldn't have went to so much trouble to provide us a way to have a relationship with him again.


you are correct. He provided himself by him choosing to lay down his life. I believe the way you do. My whole point in this is if God made man sin, God choose to kill his son. Jesus freely laid down his life for the world.


----------



## M80

Another one to think about for not having free will, why did Noah preach for 120 years. He built the boat but only 8 people survived.


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> you are correct. He provided himself by him choosing to lay down his life. I believe the way you do. My whole point in this is if God made man sin, God choose to kill his son. Jesus freely laid down his life for the world.



I'm losing something here as related to freewill. Are you and Harbuck saying God sacrificed himself for sin? 
My point is, where is the freewill of Jesus the man?
Why does the freewill of Adam or us matter if God sacrificed himself?
Wasn't the whole point of a sacrifice to be that of a human?
A human with the freewill to say "no?"
Now I don't have problem with Jesus being the SON of God and being the "fullness" of the Godhead but if Jesus didn't have the ability to decline his role as "sacrifice," I'm having trouble understanding what a sacrifice is.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Harbuck said:


> Your thinking to small. Think big picture. If you haven't already go and read my post in the topic about the oneness of God. The post that deals with who Jesus is. He is the seed not dust as Adam was therefore God whew that Satan had no claim to Jesus. Our earthly lives mean little when compared to eternity. God providing "himself" a sacrifice for our sins was a win win for us and God. We got a new chance to be with him and he with us. He must love us dearly or he wouldn't have went to so much trouble to provide us a way to have a relationship with him again.



If God left Jesus at the cross because of sin, how did God sacrifice himself? Wouldn't this be Jesus the man sacrificing himself?  
Is a seed not different form the parent? Can a seed be so like a parent that if you have seen the seed, you have seen the parent? Can a seed be so like a parent that is is still a different plant?  Can't the Father dwell in me and yet I not be the Father? If you see me do you  see the Father?


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm losing something here as related to freewill. Are you and Harbuck saying God sacrificed himself for sin?
> My point is, where is the freewill of Jesus the man?
> Why does the freewill of Adam or us matter if God sacrificed himself?
> Wasn't the whole point of a sacrifice to be that of a human?
> A human with the freewill to say "no?"
> Now I don't have problem with Jesus being the SON of God and being the "fullness" of the Godhead but if Jesus didn't have the ability to decline his role as "sacrifice," I'm having trouble understanding what a sacrifice is.



He did have the ability to decline. The bible says he could have called ten thousand angels.


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> He did have the ability to decline. The bible says he could have called ten thousand angels.



Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

It's almost like God gave Jesus the freewill to call on God.
This sounds like the same type of freewill God gives us to call on God.

Calling on God who dwells within me is a wonderful thing. I'm sure Jesus thought so also. 
Yet Jesus somehow didn't call on the Father and died for our sins. This "not calling on his Father" for  the 12 legions of angles is proof of the free will of Jesus.
Somehow this also separates Jesus from his Father if only temporarily.  
Somehow this also separates us if only temporarily from the Father of Jesus, our brother.
Sometimes when we don't call on God dwelling within us, it's for our own selfish reasons. Jesus did it for a totally unselfish reason. It seems like it would have to be from the human spirit of Jesus and not the Spirit of God dwelling within.
If you have seen me, you have seen the Father.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Did God murder himself or his Son? Who made the sacrifice, God or Jesus?
It was God's only begotten son that he sacrificed. Yet it was Jesus who could have called on his Father(God) to send help in the form of angels.
Yet if God knew with foreknowledge how it would all go down?


----------



## Harbuck

Artfuldodger said:


> If God left Jesus at the cross because of sin, how did God sacrifice himself? Wouldn't this be Jesus the man sacrificing himself?
> Is a seed not different form the parent? Can a seed be so like a parent that if you have seen the seed, you have seen the parent? Can a seed be so like a parent that is is still a different plant?  Can't the Father dwell in me and yet I not be the Father? If you see me do you  see the Father?



Jesus was/is fully God and fully man. God is a spirit. The flesh part of Jesus had free will and could have let us fend for ourselves. he didn't want to die or he wouldn't have prayed asking if there was any other way. He chose to full fill his purpose because he knew that it was man-kinds only hope. Think of it this way, When you came to christ he filled you with his spirit. You became the temple of God He dwells in you is now a part of you influences your choices but you still are you and have your own free will. Only difference is Jesus was born with the Spirit of God all ready and was born sinless in his earthly vessel "flesh" aswell.


----------



## Harbuck

Artfuldodger said:


> Did God murder himself or his Son? Who made the sacrifice, God or Jesus?
> It was God's only begotten son that he sacrificed. Yet it was Jesus who could have called on his Father(God) to send help in the form of angels.
> Yet if God knew with foreknowledge how it would all go down?



Yes he and his son are one and the same
The flesh part of Christ was just that flesh they are the same spirit. Jesus's flesh was just without sin so he still operated in his full dominion over the earth. when he prayed to the father his flesh was praying to his spirit for guidance just as you pray for guidance from the spirit of God that is now in you. think of it this way Jesus is the only begotten "human" of God he is Gods seed. The rest of humanity God created not birthed. this is why we must be born again. He birth's his spirit into us.


Luke 17:21King James Version (KJV)

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


----------



## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> Another one to think about for not having free will, why did Noah preach for 120 years.


Did he? Show me.


mwilliams80 said:


> He built the boat but only 8 people survived.


Wasn't it built for Noah and his family only? (Genesis 6:18)


----------



## M80

Harbuck said:


> Jesus was/is fully God and fully man. God is a spirit. The flesh part of Jesus had free will and could have let us fend for ourselves. he didn't want to die or he wouldn't have prayed asking if there was any other way. He chose to full fill his purpose because he knew that it was man-kinds only hope. Think of it this way, When you came to christ he filled you with his spirit. You became the temple of God He dwells in you is now a part of you influences your choices but you still are you and have your own free will. Only difference is Jesus was born with the Spirit of God all ready and was born sinless in his earthly vessel "flesh" aswell.



Amen


----------



## Artfuldodger

Harbuck said:


> Yes he and his son are one and the same
> The flesh part of Christ was just that flesh they are the same spirit. Jesus's flesh was just without sin so he still operated in his full dominion over the earth. when he prayed to the father his flesh was praying to his spirit for guidance just as you pray for guidance from the spirit of God that is now in you. think of it this way Jesus is the only begotten "human" of God he is Gods seed. The rest of humanity God created not birthed. this is why we must be born again. He birth's his spirit into us.
> 
> 
> Luke 17:21King James Version (KJV)
> 
> 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.



This is the confusing part of Oneness to me. Jesus and God are the same Spirit and the only difference is Jesus having flesh. Then you say compare that to me or you in that God's spirit is within us. 
Yet we do have a separate spirit from God's spirit as you mentioned. 
Somehow I believe Jesus has a separate spirit from God's spirit dwelling in him. Didn't his flesh have a human spirit that followed the guidance of God's spirit? If Jesus had freewill then he had to have his on spirit.
I,like Jesus, pray to God(spirit within me) for guidance. I don't consider that I'm praying to myself when I do this because I have my own spirit living alongside God's spirit.
Trinitarians see Oneness as Jesus praying to himself although I know you don't see it that way. I don't see it that way either. I see Jesus praying to his Father in Heaven just as we do even though God's spirit is in us. I don't pray to that part of God which is known as the Holy Spirit which Trinitarians see as 1/3 of God.
Maybe Oneness is as confusing as the Trinity.


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## Harbuck

Artfuldodger said:


> This is the confusing part of Oneness to me. Jesus and God are the same Spirit and the only difference is Jesus having flesh. Then you say compare that to me or you in that God's spirit is within us.
> Yet we do have a separate spirit from God's spirit as you mentioned.
> Somehow I believe Jesus has a separate spirit from God's spirit dwelling in him. Didn't his flesh have a human spirit that followed the guidance of God's spirit? If Jesus had freewill then he had to have his on spirit.
> I,like Jesus, pray to God(spirit within me) for guidance. I don't consider that I'm praying to myself when I do this because I have my own spirit living alongside God's spirit.
> Trinitarians see Oneness as Jesus praying to himself although I know you don't see it that way. I don't see it that way either. I see Jesus praying to his Father in Heaven just as we do even though God's spirit is in us. I don't pray to that part of God which is known as the Holy Spirit which Trinitarians see as 1/3 of God.
> Maybe Oneness is as confusing as the Trinity.



Maybe you are right maybe not. That's a hard question to answer and I don't know if I'm qualified to do so. I learn new revelations about who God is and isn't all the time. I'm only 34 years old. I will admit that I still have a lot to learn about God, But what I have shared is what's right to me, in my mind and what I have learned so far. I hope that at least some of what I have learned has blessed you as you all have blessed me and caused me to think more intently on my Lord and savior.


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## Artfuldodger

Harbuck said:


> Maybe you are right maybe not. That's a hard question to answer and I don't know if I'm qualified to do so. I learn new revelations about who God is and isn't all the time. I'm only 34 years old. I will admit that I still have a lot to learn about God, But what I have shared is what's right to me, in my mind and what I have learned so far. I hope that at least some of what I have learned has blessed you as you all have blessed me and caused me to think more intently on my Lord and savior.



I was raised Trinitarian but never got it. It has never made sense explaining God as having three equal parts of one God. God has never revealed himself to me that way. 
I only felt Trinitarian by indoctrination and not from studying the Word for myself.
I worked with a few Apostolic Pentecostals who explained God as being one. I had read in the Bible that God was only one God. Even their(your) belief made more sense than dividing God into three but separate parts capable of functioning separately at the same time. 
Now I see Jesus as being a part of God only as his Son. Jesus did reveal his Father but not acting as his Father.
Jesus prayed to his Father. I could quote verses where Jesus said he isn't his Father and Trins can quote verses where Jesus says he is his Father. 
I too pick up revelations about who God is and isn't and I too have learned from you and everyone else. It does make me study more. Again God hasn't revealed himself to me as he has to you or the Trins.
I'm hoping that salvation isn't based on figuring all of this out before my physical death. If it is then God knew before time that I would or wouldn't figure it out. 
Salvation is of the Lord. He knows what's in my heart/brain.


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## Israel

Artfuldodger said:


> I was raised Trinitarian but never got it. It has never made sense explaining God as having three equal parts of one God. God has never revealed himself to me that way.
> I only felt Trinitarian by indoctrination and not from studying the Word for myself.
> I worked with a few Apostolic Pentecostals who explained God as being one. I had read in the Bible that God was only one God. Even their(your) belief made more sense than dividing God into three but separate parts capable of functioning separately at the same time.
> Now I see Jesus as being a part of God only as his Son. Jesus did reveal his Father but not acting as his Father.
> Jesus prayed to his Father. I could quote verses where Jesus said he isn't his Father and Trins can quote verses where Jesus says he is his Father.
> I too pick up revelations about who God is and isn't and I too have learned from you and everyone else. It does make me study more. Again God hasn't revealed himself to me as he has to you or the Trins.
> I'm hoping that salvation isn't based on figuring all of this out before my physical death. If it is then God knew before time that I would or wouldn't figure it out.
> Salvation is of the Lord. He knows what's in my heart/brain.



I'd be interested to see where Jesus goes beyond saying "if you have seen me you have seen the Father"...or "I and the Father are one"... to, as you say, he states he is his father.


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## hawglips

God gave Adam and you and me and everyone else the power to choose.  What we do with our time and this power to choose is up to us.  We make the choices.  

God provided The Savior to allow us to have a way to overcome the sins we will inevitably choose.  His Son was a willing sacrifice - a gift of pure love.


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