# Eph.6:1-3 meaning??



## welderguy

What's your take on this text? I've tried turning it over and over and upside down many times, but still not completely understanding it. I'd love to hear what y'all think.

Eph.6:1-3
1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.

2 Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;

3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.


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## j_seph

Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

Are we being told what we must be doing throughout Eph 5/6 in order to be followers of God

Exodus 20:12 (6th commandment)
12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

I see this as one of Gods commandments he gave us, and in it he tells us that by honoring them our days will be long (A promise from God)


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## centerpin fan

welderguy said:


> What's your take on this text? I've tried turning it over and over and upside down many times, but still not completely understanding it. I'd love to hear what y'all think.
> 
> Eph.6:1-3
> 1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
> 
> 2 Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;
> 
> 3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.



What's the confusing part?  It seems pretty straightforward to me.


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## welderguy

j_seph said:


> Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
> 
> Are we being told what we must be doing throughout Eph 5/6 in order to be followers of God
> 
> Exodus 20:12 (6th commandment)
> 12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
> 
> I see this as one of Gods commandments he gave us, and in it he tells us that by honoring them our days will be long (A promise from God)



I agree that it's saying to honour your parents is part of following God. But is it promising a long life to every follower of God who does this? That's the part that leaves me scratching my head.


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## j_seph

Not a promise because it says mayest meaning may


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## j_seph

in Exodus 21:15-17
15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.

16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.

17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

In 15 and 17 both cases is not honoring and obeying and the consequence is death. So to me if you do not honor and obey than your time may be shorter.


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## welderguy

j_seph said:


> Not a promise because it says mayest meaning may



What is the promise that's spoken of in Eph.6:2?


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## welderguy

Here's another one.

Proverbs 10:27

 The fear of the Lord prolongeth days: but the years of the wicked shall be shortened.


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## j_seph

welderguy said:


> What is the promise that's spoken of in Eph.6:2?



Digging I found this
"God placed within the Fifth Commandment His revealed instruction that stable families make strong nations. When all children honor and obey parental authority, incredible blessings result, including peace, wealth and health. God warns us: Destroy the family unit through dishonor and disobedience, and our nations will suffer the miseries of crime, violence, war and eventual destruction!"


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## j_seph

welderguy said:


> Here's another one.
> 
> Proverbs 10:27
> 
> The fear of the Lord prolongeth days: but the years of the wicked shall be shortened.



I would take this as fear of the Lord will prolong your days as he will protect you, if you fear the Lord then odds are your doing what you should be doing as a child of the king. 
If your wicked then you are placing yourself out of God's will, doing things a child of the king or anyone should not be doing. Placing yourself in places, situations that you should not be in. As well if the Lord decides he's had enough he can take you out of this world. That's actually a testimony from one of our preachers that tried to run from his calling to preach. He was shown, do as you are told or he's going to take him out of this world.


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## welderguy

j_seph said:


> I would take this as fear of the Lord will prolong your days as he will protect you, if you fear the Lord then odds are your doing what you should be doing as a child of the king.
> If your wicked then you are placongratulations yourself out of God's will, doing things a child of the king or anyone should not be doing. Placing yourself in places, situations that you should not be in. As well if the Lord decides he's had enough he can take you n out of this world. That's actually a testimony from one of our preachers that tried to run from his calling to preach. He was shown, do as you are told or he's going to take him out of this world.



I believe you are correct j_seph.
There are certainly consequences of our rebellious actions in this life.
I'm again reminded of Joshua and Caleb who, after 40 years wandering in the wilderness and watching the disobedient and unbelieving Hebrews die off, God rewarded Joshua and Caleb's obedience with prolonged days and blessings in the promised land.


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## welderguy

Look how God prolonged Ahab's days, when he humbled himself after killing Naboth and taking his vineyard:

1Kings21:29
29 Seest thou how Ahab humbleth himself before me? because he humbleth himself before me, I will not bring the evil in his days: but in his son's days will I bring the evil upon his house.

It's the humbling and submitting to all that are in authority over us, whether it's parents or powers that be, or God. The word tells us God honours that submission.


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## hobbs27

It's good to know that God is actively intervening in our lives and we're not just living out a plan made before the world began.


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## Artfuldodger

1Kings21:29
29 Seest thou how Ahab humbleth himself before me? because he humbleth himself before me, I will not bring the evil in his days: but in his son's days will I bring the evil upon his house.

Just intervention?


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> It's good to know that God is actively intervening in our lives and we're not just living out a plan made before the world began.



I believe it is both.
God will surely get us from point A to point B, regardless of our many rebellions. It's for our sanctification.
Remember Jonah? He refused to go to Ninevah, but eventually he went.

I love this in Hosea 13:9

9 O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help.


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## gordon 2

I'm gona answer from the top of my head in the Lord. Which is not at all like an answer from what the "bible says". 

So toss it or honor it, here goes:

It is Paul who is saying this. As I understand Paul from the top of my head in the Lord, this is what I get.

 A. Paul has this understanding about faith and the possibility of falling away from it.

B. Paul has this understanding of wrath, which is what happens when people fall away. ( In some cases wrath is to bring back backsliders, but in other cases it is a challenge that some people will not overcome.)

I understand two things about obeying parents in the Lord. a. In the Lord, the  human parents we have in the Lord are possibly the apostles who teach correctly concerning  faith and on guarding the faith. Obey parents in the Lord even if they are not in the Lord, honor them...as parents.

The individuals of the generation of faith born from the cross have a long life if they continue with faith, however if they don't their days on earth are numbered, unless they repent and change. And I understand their days to be their children's days and the days of their children's children.


Obey our parent in the Lord; That is may be well with thee and you will live long... ( paraphase)

Be obedient to masters who are in the flesh, with singlesness of heart unto the Lord... Paraphase

In other words be as Christ, or be Christ like to all, both those in the Lord and those in the flesh and your days on earth shall be purposeful according to God's will. And you know-it-alls in the Lord, no matter where you get your knowing, don't provoke your children to wrath! by saying your in the Lord but yet practicing something else. Children have a way of knowing if your real or not . And for honoring you, they will never tell you to provocation that "Dad! Mom! I love you but you don't always practice... what the apostles or the Lord says...."


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## welderguy

gordon 2 said:


> I'm gona answer from the top of my head in the Lord. Which is not at all like an answer from what the "bible says".
> 
> So toss it or honor it, here goes:
> 
> It is Paul who is saying this. As I understand Paul from the top of my head in the Lord, this is what I get.
> 
> A. Paul has this understanding about faith and the possibility of falling away from it.
> 
> B. Paul has this understanding of wrath, which is what happens when people fall away. ( In some cases wrath is to bring back backsliders, but in other cases it is a challenge that some people will not overcome.)
> 
> I understand two things about obeying parents in the Lord. a. In the Lord, the  human parents we have in the Lord are possibly the apostles who teach correctly concerning  faith and on guarding the faith. Obey parents in the Lord even if they are not in the Lord, honor them...as parents.
> 
> The individuals of the generation of faith born from the cross have a long life if they continue with faith, however if they don't their days on earth are numbered, unless they repent and change. And I understand their days to be their children's days and the days of their children's children.
> 
> 
> Obey our parent in the Lord; That is may be well with thee and you will live long... ( paraphase)
> 
> Be obedient to masters who are in the flesh, with singlesness of heart unto the Lord... Paraphase
> 
> In other words be as Christ, or be Christ like to all, both those in the Lord and those in the flesh and your days on earth shall be purposeful according to God's will. And you know-it-alls in the Lord, no matter where you get your knowing, don't provoke your children to wrath! buy saying your in the Lord but yet practicing something else. Children have a way of knowing if your real or not . And for honoring you, they will never tell you to provocation that "Dad! Mom! I love you but you don't always practice... what the apostles or the Lord says...."



Thanks Gordon, those are certainly some angles that I haven't looked at it from before.


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## welderguy

There are other things the word tells us that prolong our days. Along with honouring mother and father, the fear of the Lord, and the laying hold on wisdom. But after much consideration, I believe this "prolonging of days" is referring more to the "abundance of life" rather than physical days.
If it were physical days then Stephen surely would have had a different end. For he had much wisdom and fear of the Lord.But the evidence he had the abundant life is that Jesus stood up in heaven to welcome his spirit home.

Good stuff.


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## Artfuldodger

I think James had an early death also.


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> There are other things the word tells us that prolong our days. Along with honouring mother and father, the fear of the Lord, and the laying hold on wisdom. But after much consideration, I believe this "prolonging of days" is referring more to the "abundance of life" rather than physical days.
> If it were physical days then Stephen surely would have had a different end. For he had much wisdom and fear of the Lord.But the evidence he had the abundant life is that Jesus stood up in heaven to welcome his spirit home.
> 
> Good stuff.



I can attest to that.  My days were much better as a child when I honored my mother and father.


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## Mako22

Here you go: spoiled brats who grow up to be undisciplined rebels tend to die young. You reap what you sow.


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## welderguy

Woodsman69 said:


> Here you go: spoiled brats who grow up to be undisciplined rebels tend to die young. You reap what you sow.



Then why is there increasingly more and more undisciplined,spoiled rotten,brat rebels that are reaching ripe old age? (cough...entire democratic party)


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## Ronnie T

I think it's simply a 1st century proverb. He's telling them something that they already know and accept as being logical and godly.
And we see it the same today.


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## welderguy

Ronnie T said:


> I think it's simply a 1st century proverb. He's telling them something that they already know and accept as being logical and godly.
> And we see it the same today.



Ronnie, do you believe Paul is telling them(and us) how to live a more abundant life?
Or do you believe he's telling how to live longer?


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## centerpin fan

Ronnie T said:


> I think it's simply a 1st century proverb. He's telling them something that they already know and accept as being logical and godly.
> And we see it the same today.



Logical exegesis and common sense have no place in this forum.  You should know better, Ronnie.


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## welderguy

centerpin fan said:


> Logical exegesis and common sense have no place in this forum.  You should know better, Ronnie.



If it's such a simple, common sense concept, then why don't you, or someone, give me the simple, common sense answer to my post #22 and #24?


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## Jeffriesw

welderguy said:


> Ronnie, do you believe Paul is telling them(and us) how to live a more abundant life?
> Or do you believe he's telling how to live longer?



X's 2


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## centerpin fan

welderguy said:


> If it's such a simple, common sense concept, then why don't you, or someone, give me the simple, common sense answer to my post #22 and #24?



You'll have to answer post #3 first.


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## welderguy

centerpin fan said:


> You'll have to answer post #3 first.



My answer to post #3 was included in post #4.


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## centerpin fan

welderguy said:


> My answer to post #3 was included in post #4.



Sorry, I missed that.  My answer to #4 is "yes".


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## gemcgrew

welderguy said:


> What's your take on this text? I've tried turning it over and over and upside down many times, but still not completely understanding it. I'd love to hear what y'all think.
> 
> Eph.6:1-3
> 1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
> 
> 2 Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;
> 
> 3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.


My take is that this has never been accomplished outside of Christ.


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## welderguy

gemcgrew said:


> My take is that this has never been accomplished outside of Christ.



And I would agree because Jesus said this:

John 10:10b
....: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.


That one thief on the cross had this abundant life, even if only for a few moments in this world.

Some, as this thief, only experience the kingdom here as a grain of mustard seed; while to others it becomes like a tree that the birds lodge in.


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## j_seph

welderguy said:


> And I would agree because Jesus said this:
> 
> John 10:10b
> ....: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
> 
> 
> That one thief on the cross had this abundant life, even if only for a few moments in this world.
> 
> Some, as this thief, only experience the kingdom here as a grain of mustard seed; while to others it becomes like a tree that the birds lodge in.


But without that living water, there would never be a mustard seed nor the birds and a tree to lodge in


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## welderguy

j_seph said:


> But without that living water, there would never be a mustard seed nor the birds and a tree to lodge in



That's exactly right.

But it also says He gives this water to those that are thirsty for it.
And I have to ask, who makes you thirsty?


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## j_seph

welderguy said:


> That's exactly right.
> 
> But it also says He gives this water to those that are thirsty for it.
> And I have to ask, who makes you thirsty?



John 4:
<sup class="versenum">13 </sup>Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
 <sup class="versenum">14 </sup>But  whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never  thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of  water springing up into everlasting life.


That would be Jesus who makes you thirsty. Why? Because you must except Jesus as your personal Savior, to me this would be the first sip of that water.

Now I will share a message we had at church yesterday.
Milk and a Refrigerator
Milk is us Refrigerator is the church
If you leave milk out of the refrigerator it spoils and goes bad. It is of no use for anything. With spoiled milk you cannot make biscuits, gravy, eat cereal, make a cake or cookies because it is spoiled. 

If we as Christians sit on the counter, we begin to spoil. These unsaved souls, the cookies and cakes cannot be made as we don't have good milk to mix up to lead these folks to Christ.

Nothing to do with water but felt the need to share.


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## welderguy

j_seph said:


> John 4:
> <sup class="versenum">13 </sup>Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
> <sup class="versenum">14 </sup>But  whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never  thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of  water springing up into everlasting life.
> 
> 
> That would be Jesus who makes you thirsty. Why? Because you must except Jesus as your personal Savior, to me this would be the first sip of that water.
> 
> Now I will share a message we had at church yesterday.
> Milk and a Refrigerator
> Milk is us Refrigerator is the church
> If you leave milk out of the refrigerator it spoils and goes bad. It is of no use for anything. With spoiled milk you cannot make biscuits, gravy, eat cereal, make a cake or cookies because it is spoiled.
> 
> If we as Christians sit on the counter, we begin to spoil. These unsaved souls, the cookies and cakes cannot be made as we don't have good milk to mix up to lead these folks to Christ.
> 
> Nothing to do with water but felt the need to share.



J_seph, you know I love you so I hope you don't take this wrong, but how does someone go about "accepting" Jesus?, and where exactly in the word does it say to do so?

These are serious questions  btw.( not trying to ridicule or argue, just learn)


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## centerpin fan

welderguy said:


> ... how does someone go about "accepting" Jesus?, and where exactly in the word does it say to do so?


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## rjcruiser

welderguy said:


> J_seph, you know I love you so I hope you don't take this wrong, but how does someone go about "accepting" Jesus?, and where exactly in the word does it say to do so?
> 
> These are serious questions  btw.( not trying to ridicule or argue, just learn)



Not a yuge fan of the terminology, but....

Revelation 3:20

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.


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## j_seph

welderguy said:


> J_seph, you know I love you so I hope you don't take this wrong, but how does someone go about "accepting" Jesus?, and where exactly in the word does it say to do so?
> 
> These are serious questions  btw.( not trying to ridicule or argue, just learn)





rjcruiser said:


> Not a yuge fan of the terminology, but....
> 
> Revelation 3:20
> 
> Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.




Romans 10:9 - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Revelation 3:20 - Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Romans 10:13 - For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 16:31 - And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Acts 2:21 - And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.


I cannot tell you what you personally must do to accept Jesus as in Philippians 2:12 states, work out your own Salvation with fear and trembling. As I believe, one cannot just only 
sit at a wildgame supper at a church for instance and repeat a written prayer with eyes closed and every head bowed then raise your hand if you repeated it to yourself. Yes Romans 10:9 tells you 
to confess with thy mouth and believe in your heart. So just repeating it alone is not gonna get you there if you do not believe in your heart. John 3:16 says whosoever believeth in
him, again you have to believe it in your heart. He will knock according to Revelation 3:20 it states he will knock, if any man hear my voice, and open the door. If you do not hear his voice
then how can you open the door to let him in. Acts 16:31 says to believe on the Lord, again you have to believe in your heart.Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13 tells us to call upon his name.

There has to be a conviction. If your heart is not being convicted, if you do not know and realize in your heart that you are headed straight to ........then uttering words from your
mouth and mind ain't going to do it. When you get that conviction in your heart that is the Lord dealing with you, talking to you, telling you that....Hey if you die you are going to ....
In other words he is knocking on your door now it is up to you to let him in. There is where fear steps in of going to a place that was not meant for us to begin with "work out your own 
salvation with fear and trembling".

Now on another hand, I got saved by repeating a prayer like mentioned.................however, I was convicted and I knew where I was headed and knew I had to do something about it. It was
not a, heck why not just jump on the bandwagon sort of thing so I could say I accepted Jesus as my personal Savior. It was a conviction that I knew, believed in my heart where I was headed.

So as I am trying to put in words here.

There has to be conviction.
There has to be obeidence to God's word when he knocks.
There has to be acceptance and belief in your heart.
You have to have faith to step out and believe in him when he knocks on the door.

This is the best I can put it in my own words and belief in his written word.


The verse below for sure tells us that Jesus is the only way for a fact.


Acts 4:12 - Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


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## welderguy

Thankyou RJ and J_seph for those responses.
I love every one of those passages, although, in light of my belief in the effectual call of the Spirit, I think my interpretation of them may differ somewhat from yours.
But thanks again, and like I said, I still love you both.


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## j_seph

welderguy said:


> Thankyou RJ and J_seph for those responses.
> I love every one of those passages, although, in light of my belief in the effectual call of the Spirit, I think my interpretation of them may differ somewhat from yours.
> But thanks again, and like I said, I still love you both.


Love ya too brother

No disrespect, what is your interpretation?


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## hobbs27

Rev22.17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


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## welderguy

j_seph said:


> Love ya too brother
> 
> No disrespect, what is your interpretation?



Short version (I'm leaving work)

2 Timothy 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,


When we are called, we respond (accept,if you will)because it is according  to His purpose, not ours. His purpose was predetermined before He created us.

Another thing. It's His sheep that hear His voice. There are some that are not sheep.(John 10)


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## gemcgrew

welderguy said:


> Short version (I'm leaving work)
> 
> 2 Timothy 1:9
> 
> 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
> 
> 
> When we are called, we respond (accept,if you will)because it is according  to His purpose, not ours. His purpose was predetermined before He created us.
> 
> Another thing. It's His sheep that hear His voice. There are some that are not sheep.(John 10)


I accepted Jesus. This was not prior to belief. I believed in Jesus. This was not prior to conversion.


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Short version (I'm leaving work)
> 
> 2 Timothy 1:9
> 
> 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
> 
> 
> When we are called, we respond (accept,if you will)because it is according  to His purpose, not ours. His purpose was predetermined before He created us.
> 
> Another thing. It's His sheep that hear His voice. There are some that are not sheep.(John 10)




I could be wrong,  but I think if you really analyze this text you will see that His Purpose.. Is what was made before the world not our personal Salvation, but Salvation itself.


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## welderguy

gemcgrew said:


> I accepted Jesus. This was not prior to belief. I believed in Jesus. This was not prior to conversion.



In short, we love Him because He first loved us.
He is the author and finisher of our faith.

And then there's this:

Ephesians.1
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


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## gemcgrew

welderguy said:


> In short, we love Him because He first loved us.
> He is the author and finisher of our faith.
> 
> And then there's this:
> 
> Ephesians.1
> 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
> 
> 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


Yes.

"All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth"

Nobody else has any.


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## welderguy

Sorry Glenn, in post 46 I intended to address it to Hobbs. My mistake.


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> In short, we love Him because He first loved us.
> He is the author and finisher of our faith.
> 
> And then there's this:
> 
> Ephesians.1
> 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
> 
> 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,



Here again,  Im pretty sure this is about His purpose as Savior.  Not our individual experience of grace,  just the fact that a plan of salvation was made before the foundations of the world.  These first century Christians may have been predestined to participate in the inauguration of the Kingdom,  but from that moment salvation was made and depended on the individual to come and take that which is freely given to whosoever will.


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> I could be wrong,  but I think if you really analyze this text you will see that His Purpose.. Is what was made before the world not our personal Salvation, but Salvation itself.



Rev.13:8 indicates there are some who's names were not written:

" And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."


Revelation 21:27 indicates there are some whose names were:

 " And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life."

God "knew" us intimately by name before He created us and He purposed to save us and adopt His chosen as His children. All this took place before He created the world.


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Rev.13:8 indicates there are some who's names were not written:
> 
> " And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Revelation 21:27 indicates there are some whose names were:
> 
> " And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life."
> 
> God "knew" us intimately by name before He created us and He purposed to save us and adopt His chosen as His children. All this took place before He created the world.




He also threatens to take out anyone's name that takes away any of the prophecy of revelation. 

Rev. 22:18,19.

Are you sure that because your name is in the book of life,  that it means you are saved? If so,  doesn't this mean you can lose salvation by taking away from the prophecies in Revelation?... Doesn't that mean you don't really have salvation until you're judged? 

Myself I'm not so sure that having your name in the book of life means salvation.... In our times.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> He also threatens to take out anyone's name that takes away any of the prophecy of revelation.
> 
> Rev. 22:18,19.
> 
> Are you sure that because your name is in the book of life,  that it means you are saved? If so,  doesn't this mean you can lose salvation by taking away from the prophecies in Revelation?... Doesn't that mean you don't really have salvation until you're judged?
> 
> Myself I'm not so sure that having your name in the book of life means salvation.... In our times.



I'm not sure about how many books there are. I heard a preacher say once that he thought the book of life and the Lambs book of life were two different books.It could also just be figurative for "in God's mind" I don't know, that's why I said those verses "indicate"...

What do you think about the text that says our names are graven upon His hands?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> He also threatens to take out anyone's name that takes away any of the prophecy of revelation.
> 
> Rev. 22:18,19.
> 
> Are you sure that because your name is in the book of life,  that it means you are saved? If so,  doesn't this mean you can lose salvation by taking away from the prophecies in Revelation?... Doesn't that mean you don't really have salvation until you're judged?
> 
> Myself I'm not so sure that having your name in the book of life means salvation.... In our times.



Then are you now saying one can loose their salvation?

Matthew 6:14-15
For if you forgive men their trespasses, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive yours.

Is eternal security somehow connected to freewill?

It appears to be more connected to election.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Then are you now saying one can loose their salvation?
> 
> Matthew 6:14-15
> For if you forgive men their trespasses, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive yours.
> 
> Is eternal security somehow connected to freewill?
> 
> It appears to be more connected to election.



No.. I'm not.  I'm saying if one believes the book of life has the names of the ones in Christ... Or saved.. Then Rev. 22  forces the fact that you can lose it. 

I believe the book has been opened and read and is no more, but I'm not wanting to make this about that.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Here again,  Im pretty sure this is about His purpose as Savior.  Not our individual experience of grace,  just the fact that a plan of salvation was made before the foundations of the world.  These first century Christians may have been predestined to participate in the inauguration of the Kingdom,  but from that moment salvation was made and depended on the individual to come and take that which is freely given to whosoever will.



Ephesians 2:8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.

Romans 11:5-6
In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.

Romans 11:25
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

We do agree that at one time God chose by grace and not works, even if he doesn't choose that way now.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> I'm not sure about how many books there are. I heard a preacher say once that he thought the book of life and the Lambs book of life were two different books.It could also just be figurative for "in God's mind" I don't know, that's why I said those verses "indicate"...
> 
> What do you think about the text that says our names are graven upon His hands?



I think that's about the ones that died under the old covenant and would be raised on the last day.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> No.. I'm not.  I'm saying if one believes the book of life has the names of the ones in Christ... Or saved.. Then Rev. 22  forces the fact that you can lose it.
> 
> I believe the book has been opened and read and is no more, but I'm not wanting to make this about that.



Election until 70AD, Freewill after?


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Election until 70AD, Freewill after?



Not exactly. 
I understand those first century Christians were elected for a purpose.  The old covenant dead were still waiting.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> I think that's about the ones that died under the old covenant and would be raised on the last day.



What do you think about this concept of individuals being "ordained to eternal life"?
What is this ordaining?

Acts 13:48

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Not exactly.
> I understand those first century Christians were elected for a purpose.  The old covenant dead were still waiting.



That's a concept I'm having trouble reasoning with. I'm not saying it's not true as Romans 11:32-33 says;

32For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all. 33 O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways!

Meaning that God can or did elect to make his plan come about. I get that he did elect and harden to make his plan come about. That it is finished.

I guess I'm having trouble understanding why he switched from electing to free will after his plan was finished. Like I say it's possible. I'm just not seeing it.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> What do you think about this concept of individuals being "ordained to eternal life"?
> What is this ordaining?
> 
> Acts 13:48
> 
> 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.



Back up to the 46 verse.. Notice many Jew's were rejecting Christ and judging themselves unworthy of eternal life. 

46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us:

‘I have set you as a light to the Gentiles,
That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’”
48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

As for the appointing or ordination.. That's the accepting.. Not rejecting.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> That's a concept I'm having trouble reasoning with. I'm not saying it's not true as Romans 11:32-33 says;
> 
> 32For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all. 33 O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways!
> 
> Meaning that God can or did elect to make his plan come about. I get that he did elect and harden to make his plan come about. That it is finished.
> 
> I guess I'm having trouble understanding why he switched from electing to free will after his plan was finished. Like I say it's possible. I'm just not seeing it.



His plan was to put in place unification with man.  Sin had separated man from God since the fall in the garden.  Christ's atonement covers sin,  now we are reunited with God.  He dwells within us... This is a new covenant phenomenon.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Back up to the 46 verse.. Notice many Jew's were rejecting Christ and judging themselves unworthy of eternal life.
> 
> 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us:
> 
> ‘I have set you as a light to the Gentiles,
> That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’”
> 48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
> 
> As for the appointing or ordination.. That's the accepting.. Not rejecting.



Then do you agree that there was a time of salvation mostly for the Jew and that it took their rejection in order for salvation to be offered to the Gentile? Was this always God's plan? To offer salvation to the Jews first? To see if they would accept it? He had to know they wouldn't. Their rejection so that he could offer salvation to the would had to be his initial plan.

Ephesians 2:12-13
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Romans 11:15
For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

Somehow we must work the rejection of Israel into the equation for the Gospel to reach the Gentiles. Election or free will, it took that rejection.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> His plan was to put in place unification with man.  Sin had separated man from God since the fall in the garden.  Christ's atonement covers sin,  now we are reunited with God.  He dwells within us... This is a new covenant phenomenon.



Men such as Abraham were separated from God until Christ died on the cross? They didn't receive God dwelling within? How did they perform?


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Men such as Abraham were separated from God until Christ died on the cross? They didn't receive God dwelling within? How did they perform?



Perform?  I'm not sure what your asking,  but Adam dwelt with God in the garden,  but was cast out..  Spiritual death,  that death reigned from Adam to Moses.. IE entire Old covenant  Roman's 5:14.

The only way God and man ever dwelt together was when the High priest made sacrifice,  purified himself,  and entered into the holiest place.. Once a year. 

When Abraham died he went to sheol/hades..because sin was still charged against Him.. He could not dwell with God until Christ made atonement for that sin.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Here again,  Im pretty sure this is about His purpose as Savior.  Not our individual experience of grace,  just the fact that a plan of salvation was made before the foundations of the world.  These first century Christians may have been predestined to participate in the inauguration of the Kingdom,  but from that moment salvation was made and depended on the individual to come and take that which is freely given to whosoever will.



You said earlier that God did elect before 70AD to make his plan come about. We read in Romans that God hardened Pharoah for that purpose. We read elsewhere God flooded the earth for that purpose. God elected Abraham's lineage for that purpose.
In Romans we read that the potter forms clay for that purpose. In Romans 11 we read that God blinded the Jews for that purpose until the full number of Gentiles came in. 

I think it's safe to say God did a lot of predestination for that purpose including the death of his Son. Consider that his Son has always been the Word, we can assume the Son's role or mission has always been for the purpose of Messiah.

Now that it is finished either on the Cross or 70AD matters not as it pertains to God's predestination for his purpose.

Now that his purpose is finished, would you or others on here assume God now only intervenes? He reacts to our actions? Before it was finished God had to predestine to control the events. To bring salvation to the Jew first and then to the Gentile. Now that it is finished, God no longer needs to be in total control.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Then do you agree that there was a time of salvation mostly for the Jew and that it took their rejection in order for salvation to be offered to the Gentile? Was this always God's plan? To offer salvation to the Jews first? To see if they would accept it? He had to know they wouldn't. Their rejection so that he could offer salvation to the would had to be his initial plan.
> 
> Ephesians 2:12-13
> remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
> 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
> 
> Romans 11:15
> For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
> 
> Somehow we must work the rejection of Israel into the equation for the Gospel to reach the Gentiles. Election or free will, it took that rejection.



Salvation was mostly to the Jew from the time Christ began His ministry.and up to Pentecost.


----------



## hobbs27

Art,  I will say this concerning your question. His purpose is in place.  Predestination is no longer needed.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Perform?  I'm not sure what your asking,  but Adam dwelt with God in the garden,  but was cast out..  Spiritual death,  that death reigned from Adam to Moses.. IE entire Old covenant  Roman's 5:14.
> 
> The only way God and man ever dwelt together was when the High priest made sacrifice,  purified himself,  and entered into the holiest place.. Once a year.
> 
> When Abraham died he went to sheol/hades..because sin was still charged against Him.. He could not dwell with God until Christ made atonement for that sin.



How did he perform the works of a Christian? If he didn't have God, how could he produce fruit? Where did he get his power? 
Maybe God was upon him but not in him. I would think that at some point God came upon him and gave him a measure of faith. He was called and accepted perhaps. 

Did the process change after the Cross or Pentecost? Wouldn't that be a dispensation or ages? 

Was there an Age of Election through grace followed by an Age of Free will through grace? Did something change or has it always been the same?

What I'm getting at is how did Abraham or Jesus,as a man, have the power to perform? If they were separated from God?


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> The only way God and man ever dwelt together was when the High priest made sacrifice,  purified himself,  and entered into the holiest place.. Once a year.



Isaiah 63
11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy spirit within him?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Art,  I will say this concerning your question. His purpose is in place.  Predestination is no longer needed.



Thanks, that was the answer I was looking for. I'm not sure I agree with it but I once did. At least we agree that God once elected.

I'm noticing you interject events such as the Cross, the Pentecost, 70AD, etc. that changed things from one format to another. The way things were done to the way things are done now. Before an event and after the event. Ages?

Things? I'm not sure. Election, control, guidance, power for individuals to produce fruit, Free will, intervention, hardening, first to the Jew, Gentiles strangers to the Commonwealth of Israel, Now no longer Jews or gentiles, rejection, branches broken off, new grafting of un-natural branches, natural branches reattached, and the list goes on and on.
Lots of ages, times, events, etc. Changes? Things?


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Isaiah 63
> 11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy spirit within him?



That is better translated "in the midst"  http://biblehub.com/text/isaiah/63-11.htm

The Spirit was on, upon,  or in their midst,  but did not indwell until Pentecost.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Thanks, that was the answer I was looking for. I'm not sure I agree with it but I once did. At least we agree that God once elected.
> 
> I'm noticing you interject events such as the Cross, the Pentecost, 70AD, etc. that changed things from one format to another. The way things were done to the way things are done now. Before an event and after the event. Ages?
> 
> Things? I'm not sure. Election, control, guidance, power for individuals to produce fruit, Free will, intervention, hardening, first to the Jew, Gentiles strangers to the Commonwealth of Israel, Now no longer Jews or gentiles, rejection, branches broken off, new grafting of un-natural branches, natural branches reattached, and the list goes on and on.
> Lots of ages, times, events, etc. Changes? Things?



It's just Bible art. I only know of two ages spoken of,  the one they were in,  and the one they were looking for,  the one that was about to come. 

Christ birth,  His Baptism,  His death,  His resurrection,  His Ascension,  His return... All changed things,  but all were part of the finished work.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> That is better translated "in the midst"  http://biblehub.com/text/isaiah/63-11.htm
> 
> The Spirit was on, upon,  or in their midst,  but did not indwell until Pentecost.



Exodus 35
30 And Moses said unto the children of Israel, See, the Lord hath called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah;

31 And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship;


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Exodus 35
> 30 And Moses said unto the children of Israel, See, the Lord hath called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah;
> 
> 31 And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship;



Exodus 35:35
"He has filled them with skill to perform every work of an engraver and of a designer and of an embroiderer, in blue and in purple and in scarlet material, and in fine linen, and of a weaver, as performers of every work and makers of designs.

1 Kings 7:14
He was a widow's son from the tribe of Naphtali, and his father was a man of Tyre, a worker in bronze; and he was filled with wisdom and understanding and skill for doing any work in bronze. So he came to King Solomon and performed all his work.

Prophets were filled with the spirit of prophecy. Yes,  but it's an indwelling in the New covenant,  or do you deny Christ covers sin and allows man and God to dwell together?


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Exodus 35:35
> "He has filled them with skill to perform every work of an engraver and of a designer and of an embroiderer, in blue and in purple and in scarlet material, and in fine linen, and of a weaver, as performers of every work and makers of designs.
> 
> 1 Kings 7:14
> He was a widow's son from the tribe of Naphtali, and his father was a man of Tyre, a worker in bronze; and he was filled with wisdom and understanding and skill for doing any work in bronze. So he came to King Solomon and performed all his work.
> 
> Prophets were filled with the spirit of prophecy. Yes,  but it's an indwelling in the New covenant,  or do you deny Christ covers sin and allows man and God to dwell together?



2 Peter 1:21

“For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> 2 Peter 1:21
> 
> “For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.gotquestions.org/amp/indwelling-of-the-Holy-Spirit.html


----------



## rjcruiser

welderguy said:


> Thankyou RJ and J_seph for those responses.
> I love every one of those passages, although, in light of my belief in the effectual call of the Spirit, I think my interpretation of them may differ somewhat from yours.
> But thanks again, and like I said, I still love you both.



welder...I think we're pretty close on the belief of election...my response was merely the verses showing where "accepting Jesus" comes from.  While it isn't always the best theological terminology, it is a start and something that many can understand as they begin their journey of sanctification.


Like all good SF threads...this one has morphed

But in reality, so many spiritual things are inter-related and they all build on each other.  If one believes in the Omniscience/omnipotence of God and the total depravity of man, election/predestination/salvation by grace is really the only logical conclusion.  If one believes in free will, well...many of those other items have to somehow reconciled and explained with difficulty.


----------



## welderguy

rjcruiser said:


> welder...I think we're pretty close on the belief of election...my response was merely the verses showing where "accepting Jesus" comes from.  While it isn't always the best theological terminology, it is a start and something that many can understand as they begin their journey of sanctification.
> 
> 
> Like all good SF threads...this one has morphed
> 
> But in reality, so many spiritual things are inter-related and they all build on each other.  If one believes in the Omniscience/omnipotence of God and the total depravity of man, election/predestination/salvation by grace is really the only logical conclusion.  If one believes in free will, well...many of those other items have to somehow reconciled and explained with difficulty.



Well said RJ.
And thanks for setting me back straight on your beliefs. You had me scratching my head for a minute there.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.gotquestions.org/amp/indwelling-of-the-Holy-Spirit.html



Hobbs, I know you believe God's people had faith in the OT because I've heard you reference it many times.
And faith cometh by hearing(Rom.10).  This is not a hearing with the physical ears.Agree?
These in the OT received their faith the same exact way we received ours. By the Holy Spirit. Circumcision of the heart.(Deut.30:6)

I know this ,and many other things, were veiled (hidden) to them.That doesn't mean they weren't in existence, it simply means they were not fully aware of them. It had not been unveiled as it has been to us.


----------



## j_seph

Is faith not something we have to have not something that we are given?

Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:


----------



## Artfuldodger

Exodus 35:35
"He has filled them with skill to perform every work of an engraver and of a designer and of an embroiderer, in blue and in purple and in scarlet material, and in fine linen, and of a weaver, as performers of every work and makers of designs.

Regardless, of an inner dwelling or outer dwelling it takes God for a person to acquire "works."

It took God's power for Saul to become Paul.


----------



## welderguy

j_seph said:


> Is faith not something we have to have not something that we are given?
> 
> Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:



Faith and grace are gifts from God.
Your ability to believe is a gift.

Philippians 1::29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;


----------



## rjcruiser

j_seph said:


> Is faith not something we have to have not something that we are given?
> 
> Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:



I believe there is a tension between God's election and man's responsibility.  

That being said, the Holy Spirit must breath spiritual life into man before he has the ability to do anything righteous.  And mankind can not somehow shift the responsibility of unrighteousness on the lack of God's predestination or election. 

Ultimately, I rest in the fact that my spiritual destiny lies in the hands of God.  Only He has the power to save and if it was left entirely up to me, I'd choose sin every time.


----------



## j_seph

welderguy said:


> Faith and grace are gifts from God.
> Your ability to believe is a gift.
> 
> Philippians 1::29
> 
> 29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;



Before you were saved, did you have faith in your parents? When they told you they were going to do something, even though they had not done so at that initial time, you had not seen it done, nor any knowledge of it being done did you have faith in them that they would do it?


----------



## j_seph

faith
fāTH/
noun
noun: faith

    1.
    complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
    "this restores one's faith in politicians"
    synonyms:	trust, belief, confidence, conviction; More
    optimism, hopefulness, hope
    "he justified his boss's faith in him"
    antonyms:	mistrust
    2.
    strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Hobbs, I know you believe God's people had faith in the OT because I've heard you reference it many times.
> And faith cometh by hearing(Rom.10).  This is not a hearing with the physical ears.Agree?
> These in the OT received their faith the same exact way we received ours. By the Holy Spirit. Circumcision of the heart.(Deut.30:6)
> 
> I know this ,and many other things, were veiled (hidden) to them.That doesn't mean they weren't in existence, it simply means they were not fully aware of them. It had not been unveiled as it has been to us.




Welder,  I'm going  to end on this comment,  cause I'm very busy on anther page trying to convert JW's,  with a little success I might add. 

The old covenant faithful believers were under the law. I know we think of Moses bringing the Law,  but who taught Noah to sacrifice clean animals?... 
 Those under the law were not a happy bunch, it was not the greatest times,  I mean they were still under the curse of Adam and loned for the coming of the Messiah to release them from the bondage of the law,  sin, and death. 

No matter how you sugar coat it,  they did not have eternal life... They only had a hope to be raised from death. There was no shed blood from the cross to give them salvation. Their faith gave them rest in Abraham's bosom,  where we have rest in Christ and eternal life. 

We are so much more blessed than them,  and more blessed than what futurist believe.  It is finished.  Let's enjoy our life in Christ and thank Him every moment for it. 
 God Bless.


----------



## welderguy

j_seph said:


> Before you were saved, did you have faith in your parents? When they told you they were going to do something, even though they had not done so at that initial time, you had not seen it done, nor any knowledge of it being done did you have faith in them that they would do it?



I did have a certain faith in my parents,but it was based on seeing them(with eyes)and physically interacting with them.

But faith in God is far more complex than that. It is a "seeing" ,not with eyes, but with our spirit. Only God can enable that. We cannot enable ourselves to do it. It takes a divine intervention.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Welder,  I'm going  to end on this comment,  cause I'm very busy on anther page trying to convert JW's,  with a little success I might add.
> 
> The old covenant faithful believers were under the law. I know we think of Moses bringing the Law,  but who taught Noah to sacrifice clean animals?...
> Those under the law were not a happy bunch, it was not the greatest times,  I mean they were still under the curse of Adam and loned for the coming of the Messiah to release them from the bondage of the law,  sin, and death.
> 
> No matter how you sugar coat it,  they did not have eternal life... They only had a hope to be raised from death. There was no shed blood from the cross to give them salvation. Their faith gave them rest in Abraham's bosom,  where we have rest in Christ and eternal life.
> 
> We are so much more blessed than them,  and more blessed than what futurist believe.  It is finished.  Let's enjoy our life in Christ and thank Him every moment for it.
> God Bless.



Soooo.....who's bosom did those before Abraham rest in?
I guess Abraham had to rest in his own bosom?

I'm just funnin with ya Hobbs. 
Thanks brother for your input in this thread. I always enjoy conversing with you, even when we don't agree.


----------



## j_seph

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.


----------



## welderguy

j_seph said:


> Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.



I remember the point in my life when I went from brain-knowledge about God to a faith-knowledge of God.
That was the greatest thing that's ever happened to me.


----------



## Ronnie T

welderguy said:


> Ronnie, do you believe Paul is telling them(and us) how to live a more abundant life?
> Or do you believe he's telling how to live longer?



NEITHER!!
Paul is simply giving Gentile Christians an insight into how God has always wanted His children to live. Those positive results of living godly lives are what the typical results will be.
Be careful with you place God's word under a microscope.....it wasnt written under one.

All the other discussion is wayyyyy off base.
In my humble opinion. ?


----------



## welderguy

Ronnie T said:


> NEITHER!!
> Paul is simply giving Gentile Christians an insight into how God has always wanted His children to live. Those positive results of living godly lives are what the typical results will be.
> Be careful with you place God's word under a microscope.....it wasnt written under one.
> 
> All the other discussion is wayyyyy off base.
> In my humble opinion. ?



OK
where do you stand on election?


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## Ronnie T

welderguy said:


> OK
> where do you stand on election?



We'd need to go to the political forum to do that.

At Eph 1:13 Paul begins talking to gentiles who have heard and come to believe in Christ.


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## welderguy

Ronnie T said:


> We'd need to go to the political forum to do that.
> 
> At Eph 1:13 Paul begins talking to gentiles who have heard and come to believe in Christ.



But don't you believe election is also a biblical concept?
Aren't you a preacher?


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## Ronnie T

If you mean: Do you believe God has already decided which individuals will be saved and which individuals will not be save..
And when Jesus said: It is God's desire that all would come to salvation"....Jesus was lying?

No! I dont believe in election.


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## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> If you mean: Do you believe God has already decided which individuals will be saved and which individuals will not be save..
> And when Jesus said: It is God's desire that all would come to salvation"....Jesus was lying?
> 
> No! I dont believe in election.



Does he at least have foreknowledge of who will accept?

To what extent did God have in choosing Adam, Noah, Abraham, & Jacob? 

If Jesus was always the original plan, did God lead the Jews to fulfill his plan or leave it up to chance? It would appear that God had to control some things to make sure his plan came about. Such as the blinding of the Jews until the full number of the Gentiles comes in. 

Romans 11:15
For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

It appears to me that from Adam to Jesus happened a certain way according to God's plan. Later Saul became Paul as part of God's plan. Saul was not looking for God. 

Maybe as Hobbs believes, God elected and predestined to fulfill his plan until all was fulfilled and then he switched to freewill.


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## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> If you mean: Do you believe God has already decided which individuals will be saved and which individuals will not be save..
> And when Jesus said: It is God's desire that all would come to salvation"....Jesus was lying?
> 
> No! I dont believe in election.



Does he at least have foreknowledge of who will accept?

To what extent did God have in choosing Adam, Noah, Abraham, & Jacob? Lineage of David? Remnant of Jews?

If Jesus was always the original plan, did God lead the Jews to fulfill his plan or leave it up to chance? It would appear that God had to control some things to make sure his plan came about. Such as the blinding of the Jews until the full number of the Gentiles comes in. 

Romans 11:15
For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

It appears to me that from Adam to Jesus happened a certain way according to God's plan. Later Saul became Paul as part of God's plan.

Maybe some of us have choice and some of us don't. Maybe as Hobbs believes, God elected and predestined to fulfill his plan until all was fulfilled and then he switched to freewill.

We do know that the death of Jesus was always the original plan. God did not leave this up to chance or just foreknowledge.


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## Ronnie T

I cant answer your questions.

"Go ye into all the world preaching the gospel. Those who believe will....those who do not will not."
Faith comes thru hearing and hearing thru the word of God.


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## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> I cant answer your questions.
> 
> "Go ye into all the world preaching the gospel. Those who believe will....those who do not will not."
> Faith comes thru hearing and hearing thru the word of God.



"It is God's desire that all would come to salvation"

Yet there whole tribes and villages we never reached. Why didn't God himself call them to salvation? I'm not talking election, just calling like he did Saul. 

It would be sad to think God wishes all salvation but never gives them a chance to receive the knowledge.
To me, this is worse than election.

I can't convince a Hindu that God wishes him salvation. He must hear it from God. He is blinded by his faulty indoctrination.

I can't convince the Jews that were hardened. Only God can open their eyes to the truth;

Romans 11:25-27
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove godlessness from Jacob. 27And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

It's God's plan, try as I may, I can't change it. I can't save anyone. Not even a single soul. I must leave it up to God.

Romans 11:29-33
For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you.32For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all. 33O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways!


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## Artfuldodger

We should see that the death of Jesus was God's plan. The Word was with God from the beginning. The plan was predestined. A remnant was chosen. The rest of Israel was harden just as Pharoah. Nothing was left to chance. The eternal always being reason/mission/purpose of Jesus was too important to be left to chance.

Israel was hardened for our sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. We who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience.
Israel have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all.

Now we are back to "all." God will have mercy on the "all." God wishes salvation for "all." 

Sin cam to "all" through Adam. Jesus died for "all."

We can all use "all" to mean whom we want it to, the whole world, the Jews living in Jerusalem before it's destruction, the Elect, Christians, or even "all" of those dead in the ground who never heard the Truth from another human.

"And so all Israel will be saved."


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