# Purpose of God's Judgement?



## Artfuldodger (Feb 27, 2012)

I've always looked at Judgement day as when God picks who goes to heaven or he!!. Now i'm not sure. If you go to heaven when you die, when do you get judged? The unregenerate are judged by their works. Christians will also be judged by our works. 
Romans 8:1 
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Christians will be judged but not for where they will spend eternity. My Mama said it means how many star will be in your crown. If salvation is by grace alone, apart from works, then how can believers be rewarded in heaven for our works?


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## jmharris23 (Feb 28, 2012)

While our salvation is by grace alone through faith alone, it looks as if there is some reward system for the way we,as believers, live our life here on earth.


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## hummerpoo (Feb 28, 2012)

jmharris23 said:


> While our salvation is by grace alone through faith alone, it looks as if there is some reward system for the way we,as believers, live our life here on earth.



It seems to me that the purpose of those rewards is that we may lay them down to honor Christ.  What do you think?


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## jmharris23 (Feb 28, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> It seems to me that the purpose of those rewards is that we may lay them down to honor Christ.  What do you think?



Yes I believe this is the case


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 28, 2012)

So the "Final Judgement" isn't to decide where we will spend eternity? I guess it can't if we are already in Heaven or he!!. I've had it explained to me that the souls in Heaven will come back to the earth with Jesus to receive their glorified bodies and them be Judged. Do the souls in He!! return to the earth for the final Judgement also?


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## BrowningFan (Feb 28, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> So the "Final Judgement" isn't to decide where we will spend eternity? I guess it can't if we are already in Heaven or he!!. I've had it explained to me that the souls in Heaven will come back to the earth with Jesus to receive their glorified bodies and them be Judged. Do the souls in He!! return to the earth for the final Judgement also?



You have two Judgement's 

Judgement Seat of Christ = Believers get rewards 

Great White Throne = None believers get there judgement , if they are in H E L L now then H E L L and it's contents will be thrown into the Lake of Fire after the Great White Throne of Judgement .


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## BrowningFan (Feb 28, 2012)

The common opinion that the Millennium is to be ushered in by the preaching of the Gospel, and that after the Millennium there is to be a "General Resurrection" followed by a "General judgment, " and then the earth is to be destroyed by fire is not scriptural.

There can be no "General" judgment because the Scriptures speak of one judgment as being in the "Air" (1Thes. 4:16, 1Thes. 4:17; 2Cor. 5:6-8) ; another on the "Earth" (Matt. 25:31-33) ; and a third in "Heaven, " the earth and its atmosphere having fled away. Rev. 20:11-13. And to-make sure that these three separate judgments should not be combined into one General judgment scene, three different Thrones are mentioned.

1. The "Judgment Seat of Christ." 2 Cor. 5:10. "In the Air." For "Believers" only.
2. The "Throne of Glory." Matt. 25:31, Matt. 25:32. "On the Earth." For "The Nations."
3.The "Great White Throne." Rev. 20:11, 12. "In Heaven." For the "Wicked Dead."

The Scriptures speak of Five Separate judgments.

They differ in five general aspects. As to "Subjects, " "Time, " "Place, " "Basis of judgment" and "Result."

Judgment No. 1.

1. Subjects-Believers as to "SIN."
2. Time-A.D. 30.
3.Place-Calvary.
4.Basis of judgment. Christ's "FINISHED WORK."
5. Result-

1. Death as to Christ.
2. Justification as to the Believer.
This judgment is PAST. The Bible proofs of the results of this judgment are Rom. 10:4.

"For Christ is the END OF THE LAW for righteousness to every one that Believeth."

"Christ Hath Redeemed us from the CURSE OF THE LAW, being made a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree." Gal. 3:13.

"Who His own self bare our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, BEING DEAD TO SINS, should live unto righteousness." 1Pet. 2:24.

"There is therefore NOW no condemnation (judgment) to them which are IN CHRIST JESUS, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the Law of the 'SPIRIT OF LIFE' in Christ Jesus hath made me FREE From the Law of 'Sin and Death."' Rom. 8:1, Rom. 8:2.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on Him that sent me, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE and shall not come into condemnation (judgment) but IS PASSED From Death Unto Life."
John 5:24.

The "Believer's" judgment for Sin then is PAST, and was settled at the Cross.

But we must not forget that the judgment of the Believer is threefold.

1. As a "Sinner."
2. As a "Son."
3. As a "Servant."

As we have already seen his judgment as a "Sinner" is Past. Let us look at his judgment

2. As a "Son."

As soon as the sinner accepts Christ as his personal Saviour that settles the "Sin" question for him. For if our iniquities are laid on Him (Jesus), then they are not on Us. Isa. 53:5, Isa. 53:6. But the "Sin" question, and the "Sins" question are two different things. Christ died on the Cross to atone for "sin, " to pay the penalty of Adam's disobedience in the Garden of Eden. "Sin" is that tendency in mankind to do wrong which we call "Natural Depravity." We do not get rid of this "tendency" by the "New Birth, " but we get a "counteracting force" called the "New Nature." We become a "dual personality, " composed of the "Old" and "New Natures, " and which shall predominate depends on which we feed and which we starve. This explains the "warfare" that Paul describes as his experience, after his conversion, in Rom. 7:1-3. This warfare will continue until the "Old" nature is eradicated at death.

"Sins" are the outward acts of wrong-doing that we commit as the result of our tendency to sin. These sins must be put away daily by "confession."

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an 'Advocate' with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1John 2:1.

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1John 1:9.

Our judgment as "Sons" is for "unconfessed sins." The punishment is chastisement. This explains much of the chastisement of Christians, and should show them that they are "Sons" and not "- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -." Heb. 12:5-1 Heb. 12:1. Paul says-

"If we would 'judge ourselves' we should not be judged. But when we are judged we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned (judged) with the world." 1Cor. 11:31, 1Cor. 11:32.

Our duty then as "Sons" is to "self-judge" ourselves daily, "confess our sins, " and so avert the chastisement of our Heavenly Father.

3. As a Servant.

This leads us to-

Judgment No. 2.

1. Subjects-Believers as to "WORKS."
2. Time-After The Church is caught out
3. Place-"Judgment Seat of Christ" (in the Air).
4. Basis of Judgment-Their "WORKS."
5. Result-Reward or Loss.

This judgment is FUTURE.

"We must all appear before the 'Judgment Seat of Christ, ' that every one may receive the things 'done in the body' according to that he hath done, whether it be 'good' or 'bad' (worthless)." 2Cor. 5:10.

The pronoun "We" occurs 26 times in the chapter, and in every instance it means the Believer, and the Epistle is addressed to the "Church" and "Saints" at Corinth, so the judgment here spoken of is for Believers "only." The "Time" of this judgment is when the Lord comes (1Cor. 4:5), and the "Place" is "in the air" (1Thes. 4:17) and before the judgment Seat of Christ.

It will not be a judgment in the sense of a "trial" to see whether the judged are innocent (saved) or guilty (lost), for it is a judgment it of the "saved only." It will be like the judges' stand at a Fair, or Race Track, where rewards are distributed to the successful contestants. Paul describes such a scene in 1Cor. 9:24-26.

It is not a judgment for sin, but for "works." This judgment is described in 1Cor. 3:11-13.

"Other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones (valuable building stones, as marble, etc.), wood, hay, stubble; every man's 'Work' shall be made manifest; for the 'Day' (judgment Day) shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by 'fire, ' and the fire shall try every mans work, of what sort it is. If any man's work 'abide' which he hath built there upon he shall receive a 'reward.' If any man's work shall be 'burned' he shall suffer 'loss; ' but 'he himself shall be saved; ' yet so as by fire."

The result of this judgment is "reward" or "loss." All our "bad" and "dead works, " represented by the wood, hay and stubble, will be consumed, and only our "good works" shall remain. There is much which passes for Christian service which is merely human and secular, and does not count in our eternal reward. For those who deserve a "reward" it will be The Crowning Day.

After the Grecian games were all over the runners, wrestlers, and successful contestants assembled before the "Bema, " or Judges' stand, which was an elevated seat on which the Umpire sat, and the winners received a "corruptible crown" of "laurel leaves." Some had no reward, they had lost the "Victor's Crown." But while there was no reward there was no punishment, they were not cast out.

The New Testament speaks of Five Crowns.

1. The Crown of "LIFE."

This is the "Martyr's" crown, and is mentioned twice.

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation (testing), for when he is 'tried' (at the judgment Seat of Christ), he shall receive the 'Crown of Life' which the Lord hath promised to them that love Him." James 1:12.

"Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer; behold, the Devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried (tested) and ye shall have tribulation ten days; be thou faithful 'unto death, ' and I will give thee a 'Crown of Life."' Rev. 2:10

Notice it does not say "until" death, but "unto" death. They were not to recant but to remain faithful unto a martyr's death. To recant was to lose the crown. This refers to the martyrs of the Tribulation Period.

2. The Crown of "GLORY."

This is the "Elder's" or "Pastor's" crown, given by the Chief Shepherd when He shall appear. But it is not for those who serve for "filthy lucre" or "lord it over God's heritage." 1Pet. 5:2-4.

3. The Crown of "REJOICING."

This is the "Soul Winner's" crown. 'Those brought to Jesus by us will be our "crown of rejoicing" at His Coming. 1Thes. 2:19, 1Thes. 2:20. Phil. 4:1.

4. The Crown of "RIGHTEOUSNESS"

This is the crown of those who "love His appearing" and will be given in "that day"-the Day of His Appearing. 2Tim. 4:8.

5. The Crown "INCORRUPTIBLE."

This is the "Victor's" crown, and is for those who "keep under their body." 1Cor. 9:25-27. Who do not yield to their fleshly lusts. Who do not permit themselves to be diverted from the Master's work by worldly amusements and pleasure, nor saturate their body with drugs.

If we do not want to be "ashamed at His Coming, " 1John 2:28, let us see to it that we keep our body "under" and so live that we shall secure a crown.

Judgment No. 3.

1. Subjects-The JEWS.
2. Time-"The Great Tribulation."
3. Place-Jerusalem and Vicinity.
4. Basis of Judgment-Rejection of the Godhead.
5. Result-Their Conversion and Reception of Christ as TheirMessiah.

This judgment is FUTURE.

While the Church is being judged at the judgment Seat of Christ in the air, the Jews will be judged under Antichrist on the earth. The Jews are an "earthly" people; and as all the promises to them are "earthly, " it follows that their judgment must be of an "earthly" character. The basis of their judgment is their "rejection of the Godhead." In the days of Samuel they rejected God the Father. 1Sam. 8:7. In the days of Christ they rejected God the Son. Luke 23:18. In the days of Stephen they rejected God the Holy Spirit. Acts 7:51, Acts 7:54-56. For their sin they have been scattered among the nations until the Times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. When the Times of the Gentiles are about to end the Jews will be gathered back to the Holy Land "unconverted, " and caused to "pass under the rod." Ez. 20:34-36. They will be cast into God's "Melting Pot" (Ez. 22:19-21), and pass through an experience spoken of by Jeremiah and Daniel as the "TIME OF JACOB'S TROUBLE." Jer. 30:4-6. Dan. 12:1.

Christ calls it "The Great Tribulation, " and He and Zechariah the Prophet associate it with the "Return of the Lord." Matt. 24:21-23. Zech. 14:1-3.

The human agent the Lord will use will be Antichrist, the awfulness of whose rule will be supplemented by the pouring out of the "Vials of God's wrath" upon the earth. Rev. 15:1, Rev. 15:5-7; Rev. 16:21. See the chapter on "The Tribulation."

The result of these terrible judgments will be that the Jews will call in their misery upon the Lord. Zech. 12:10. Then Christ will come back to the Mt. of Olives (Zech. 14:3) and the Jews will look upon Him whom they "pierced" (Zech. 12:10), and a nation, the Jewish Nation, shall be "born (converted) in a day." Isa. 66:8. This will complete the judgment of the Jews. See the chapter on the Jews.

Judgment No. 4.

1. Subjects-The Nations (Gentiles).
2. Time-The "Revelation of Christ."
3. Place-The "Throne of His Glory." On the Earth-"Valley of Jehoshaphat."
4. Basis of judgment-Their Treatment of Christ's Brethren-The Jews.
5. Result-Some Nations "SAVED, " Others "DESTROYED."

This judgment is FUTURE.

The account of this judgment is given in Matt. 25:31-33. The description of this judgment, and of the one given in Rev. 20:11-13 are combined by many, and taken to teach the doctrine of a general judgment. But when we compare them, they differ so widely, that it is evident that they do not describe the same event. What God has put asunder let no man join together. The following comparison will show the difference in the two accounts:

Matt. 25:31-33. Rev. 20:11-13.
1. No Resurrection. 1. A Resurrection.
2. Living Nations judged. 2. Dead judged. 
3. On the Earth. Joel 3:2. 3. Heaven and Earth Gone.
4. No Books Mentioned. 4. Books Opened.
5. Three Classes Named. "Sheep, ""Goats, " "Brethren." 5. One Class Named. "The Dead."
6. Time-Before the Millennium 6. Time-After the Millennium.

This comparison reveals the fact that one of these judgments is "on the earth, " the other in the "heavens, " and that they are separated by 1000 years.

The Greek word "ethnos" here translated "Nations, " occurs 158 times in the New Testament. It is translated "Gentiles" 92 times, "Nation" or "Nations" 61 times, and "The Heathen" 5 times, but it is never in any instance (unless it be this) applied either to the "dead" or the "resurrected."

As this is a judgment of nations only, the Jews cannot be in it, for they are not reckoned among the nations. Num. 23:9. And as the Church will be associated with Christ in this judgment, for the "Saints" (the Church) shall judge the "World" (the Nations), (1Cor. 6:2), the Church cannot be in this judgment either. As we have seen the Church and the Jews have been already judged, so the "Judgment of the Nations" cannot be a general judgment. Who then, is asked, are meant by the Sheep? Do they not represent the Righteous, and all the Righteous from the beginning of the world to the end of Time? And do not the Goats in like manner represent all the Wicked?

If the Sheep are the Righteous, and the Goats the Wicked, then who are the Brethren? If they are the "followers of Christ, " as some claim, they should be classed with the Sheep. The Scriptures teach that the Righteous are saved by "faith, " and the Wicked are lost because they "reject Christ, " but in this judgment scene the Sheep inherit a "Kingdom" and the Goats are commanded to "depart, " because of their treatment of the Brethren.

All the contusion is caused by trying to make a judgment of "nations" mean a judgment of "individuals." The Sheep represent one class of Nations, and the Goats another class, while the Brethren represent the Jews (Christ's brethren).

We must bear in mind the time and place of this judgment. The time is at the "Revelation of Christ, " when He comes to set up His "Millennial Kingdom" on the earth. The place is the "Valley of Jehoshaphat" in the vicinity of Jerusalem.

"For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, I will also gather ALL NATIONS, and will bring them down into the 'Valley of Jehoshaphat, ' and will plead with them there for MY PEOPLE and for my heritage ISRAEL, whom they have scattered among the Nations, and parted my land." Joel 3:1, Joel 3:2.

This prophecy clearly states that there is to be a "Judgment of Nations" on the earth in the "Valley of ehoshaphat" at the time of the restoration of the Jews to their own' land, and that the basis of judgment is the treatment by the nations of Christ's brethren-The Jews.

During the "Tribulation Period" the Nations that treat the Jewish People kindly, feeding and clothing them, and visiting them in prison, will be the "Sheep Nations, " while those who neglect to do so will be the "Goat Nations."

At the "Judgment of Nations" the King (Christ) will say to the "Sheep Nations, " inasmuch as ye have been kind to My brethren (the Jews), "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." This Kingdom is the "Millennial Kingdom" that the "Sheep Nations" as Nations will "inherit" and possess during the Millennium. And as they are to be among the "saved nations" of the New Earth (Rev. 21:24) it can be said of them that they, or at least the righteous individuals of them, shall enter into life eternal. Matt. 25:46.

Christ's sentence upon the "Goat Nations" will be-"Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire ' prepared for the Devil and his angels, " and "these shall go away into everlasting punishment." The "Goat Nations" will at once be destroyed as Nations, not one of them shall get into the Millennium, and the wicked individuals that compose them will perish and be eternally lost.

Judgment No. 5.

1. Subjects-The Wicked Dead.
2. Time-During the Renovation of the Earth by Fire.
3. Place-Before "The Great White Throne."
4. Basis of judgment-Their "Works."
5. Result-Cast Into the "Lake of Fire."

This judgment is FUTURE.

The account of it is given in Rev. 20:11-13. It will take place at the close of the Millennium a 1000 years after the judgment of the Nations, and before the "Great White Throne."

The "Great White Throne" will not be on the earth, for the "Great White Throne judgment" will take place during the renovation of the earth by fire, for the "renovation" of this Earth is reserved or kept until the time of that judgment, which Peter calls "The Day of judgment and Perdition of Ungodly Men" (2Pet. 3:7), because the judgment of the "Great White Throne"is the judgment of the wicked dead.

All the Righteous dead will arise at the First Resurrection. If any Righteous die between the First Resurrection and the Resurrection of the "wicked" or Second Resurrection, they will rise with the wicked dead at that Resurrection. The words-"Whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life (vs. 15), implies that there will be "some, " probably very few, Righteous at the Second Resurrection.

At the close of the Millennium and just before the renovation of the earth by fire, the living Righteous will probably be translated, and the living Wicked or Ungodly will be destroyed in the flames that will consume the earth's atmosphere and exterior surface.

The Wicked or Ungodly will not be judged to see whether they are entitled to Eternal Life, but to ascertain the "degree" of their punishment. The sad feature of this judgment will be that there will be many kind and lovable people there who were not saved, and who will be classed among the "ungodly" because they rejected Christ as a Saviour. The "Books" will be opened in which the "Recording Angel" has kept a record of every person's life, and they will be judged every man according to his "works." Some will be sentenced to a more severe punishment than others, but none will escape. The worst of all is, that those who were not so bad must spend eternity with the ungodly, and that in the "Lake of Fire." Their punishment includes the second death, which means that they shall lose their resurrection bodies, in which they were judged, and become "disembodied spirits" again, and so exist in the "Lake of Fire" FOREVER.

The "Fallen Angels" (not the Devil's angels), who are "reserved in everlasting chains under darkness" will be judged at this time, which Jude calls the judgment of the "Great Day." Jude 6. When this judgment is over the Devil and his angels, and all the ungodly, will have been consigned to the "Lake of Fire, " and the Universe purged of all evil, and righteousness shall reign supreme on the New Earth


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 28, 2012)

That's the most i've ever seen written on judgement. I guess the term "Final Judgement" wouldn't be used if there would only be one judgement. Couldn't the use of thrones and crowns be a case of semantics? 
Does the Bible tell us what all these various rewards will be?


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## BrowningFan (Feb 28, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> That's the most i've ever seen written on judgement. I guess the term "Final Judgement" wouldn't be used if there would only be one judgement. Couldn't the use of thrones and crowns be a case of semantics?
> Does the Bible tell us what all these various rewards will be?



Yes the I listed the rewards.


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## BrowningFan (Feb 28, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> That's the most i've ever seen written on judgement. I guess the term "Final Judgement" wouldn't be used if there would only be one judgement. Couldn't the use of thrones and crowns be a case of semantics?
> Does the Bible tell us what all these various rewards will be?



As far as semantics ..... I have been taught to take every scripture LITERAL unless it's not possible.


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## JB0704 (Feb 28, 2012)

BrowningFan said:


> The Wicked or Ungodly will not be judged to see whether they are entitled to Eternal Life, but to ascertain the "degree" of their punishment. The sad feature of this judgment will be that there will be many kind and lovable people there who were not saved, and who will be classed among the "ungodly" because they rejected Christ as a Saviour. The "Books" will be opened in which the "Recording Angel" has kept a record of every person's life, and they will be judged every man according to his "works." Some will be sentenced to a more severe punishment than others, but none will escape. The worst of all is, that those who were not so bad must spend eternity with the ungodly, and that in the "Lake of Fire." Their punishment includes the second death, which means that they shall lose their resurrection bodies, in which they were judged, and become "disembodied spirits" again, and so exist in the "Lake of Fire" FOREVER.



That was a lot of information!  As far as the point in red, what is the reference on that, or is it implied.  The reason I ask is that I have heard otherwise, but never studied it much or looked for references.  The "afterlife" is a very confusing, and sometimes troubling, concept to me.


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## BrowningFan (Feb 28, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> That was a lot of information!  As far as the point in red, what is the reference on that, or is it implied.  The reason I ask is that I have heard otherwise, but never studied it much or looked for references.  The "afterlife" is a very confusing, and sometimes troubling, concept to me.



That would be the Non Believer that is like The Dali Lama that lived a almost sinless life but never came to trust Christ. Can you image the Dali Lama waking up in H E L L next to Adolph Hitler. WOW what site that would be.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 28, 2012)

The reason there's going to be a judgment is because God doesn't want the likes of some people in His presence in heaven.
God has that right.

As far as deciding exactly how God is going to do it........... I believe God get's all excited when He sees us talking as though we've already got the judgment and eternity figured out.
Please!

Give yourself to God and He'll take care of you even into the eternity.


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## formula1 (Feb 28, 2012)

*Re:*



Ronnie T said:


> Give yourself to God and He'll take care of you even into the eternity.



Amen.  And to add a scriptural thought from Jesus:

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.


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## rjcruiser (Feb 28, 2012)

BrowningFan said:


> I have been taught to take every scripture LITERAL.



Except in the case of Noah's nakedness.


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## JB0704 (Feb 28, 2012)

BrowningFan said:


> That would be the Non Believer that is like The Dali Lama that lived a almost sinless life but never came to trust Christ. Can you image the Dali Lama waking up in H E L L next to Adolph Hitler. WOW what site that would be.



I was more referencing the lake of fire aspect of the sentence.  From what I understand, there are various schools of thought as to what he11 actually is, and if it is a "one-size-fits-all" punishment, or are there varying levels of seperation?  And what are the references for the belief.  Reason I asked is that I understood the lake of fire was not where _all_ the "lost" go, but not sure what the alternative was.


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## BrowningFan (Feb 28, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I was more referencing the lake of fire aspect of the sentence.  From what I understand, there are various schools of thought as to what he11 actually is, and if it is a "one-size-fits-all" punishment, or are there varying levels of seperation?  And what are the references for the belief.  Reason I asked is that I understood the lake of fire was not where _all_ the "lost" go, but not sure what the alternative was.



Iv'e never read anything in the Bible other than H E L L. H E L L is fire. Here is what Jesus says in Luke 16 :22 . . . the rich man also died, and was buried; 
23 And in - H E L L he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. (Luke 16:22-28)

Here are some more passages on what Jesus says H E L L is

fire"	 Matt 7:19, 13:40, 25:41
"everlasting fire"	 Matt 18:8, 25:41
"furnace of fire"	 Matt 13:42, 50
"the fire that never shall be quenched"	 Mark 9:43, 45
"the fire is not quenched"	 Mark 9:44, 46, 48
"Where their worm dieth not"	 Mark 9:44, 46, 48
"wailing and gnashing of teeth"	 Matt 13:42, 50
"weeping and gnashing of teeth"	 Matt 8:12, 22:13, 25:30
"torments"	 Luke 16:23
"tormented in this flame"	 Luke 16:24
"place of torment"	 Luke 16:28
"outer darkness"	 Matt 8:12, 22:13
"everlasting punishment"	 Matt 25:46


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## BrowningFan (Feb 28, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> Except in the case of Noah's nakedness.



 I would never teach the Noah - Ham deal as Doctrine just an opinion.


But a literal , visible , physical H E L L is Doctrine.


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## BrowningFan (Feb 28, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> The reason there's going to be a judgment is because God doesn't want the likes of some people in His presence in heaven.
> God has that right.
> 
> As far as deciding exactly how God is going to do it........... I believe God get's all excited when He sees us talking as though we've already got the judgment and eternity figured out.
> ...



I don't understand .... the OP ask about judgment. Are we not suppose to give our opinion on what we have learned on this Forum ? Can you explain the Please comment ? Please ?


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## jmharris23 (Feb 28, 2012)

BrowningFan said:


> I don't understand .... the OP ask about judgment. Are we not suppose to give our opinion on what we have learned on this Forum ? Can you explain the Please comment ? Please ?



I do believe you are reading something into Ronnie's post that isn't there?


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## JB0704 (Feb 28, 2012)

BrowningFan said:


> Iv'e never read anything in the Bible other than H E L L. H E L L is fire.



.....but is he11 the lake of fire?  I know there are also references where they talk about worms.  I believe there is some NT reference to hades which is from Greek tradition. I am asking honestly.  This is not to say what I do or don't believe, it is just to see what the various opinions on the subject are relevant to what the scripture is telling us.


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## BrowningFan (Feb 28, 2012)

JB0704 H E L L - is thrown into the Lake of Fire ...... As far as the Greek that makes is hard. I know a lot of good Godly men say" The Original Greek says " but there is no Original Manuscript found to date. There are two BASICS KINDS of Greek Text .The Received Text (Textus Receptus)which comes from Antioch Syria and  Vaticinios - Sinaiticus ( Westcott and Hort)which come from Alexandria Egypt. Both are very different. I would rather stay with English .... I believe God has preserved his word in English so I never rely on "The Greek" . I know people sound smart by saying but " The Greek" says. What they don't understand is not all Greek Text agrees with each other ( so which Greek are they using?) . Again I will defend the fact that GOD preserved his word PERFECT for English speaking people and I can put my hand on it and it is my Final Authority in all matter of faith and practice.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 28, 2012)

BrowningFan said:


> I don't understand .... the OP ask about judgment. Are we not suppose to give our opinion on what we have learned on this Forum ? Can you explain the Please comment ? Please ?



You'll have to accept my apology concerning that post. 

I've been on a recent kick concerning how myself and other Christians decide things they have no control over rather than studying things that can affect their lives today.

The "Please" meant that the judgment will take place one day.  Everything else can be stopped or prevented.  But not the judgment.  And the judgment will go perfectly.  Just the way it needs to.

Some of us will be very surprised.  
The Bible is filled with explanations of the great decisions that will be made in regard to Christ church.

I expect to be wrong on some of the key elements.


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## BrowningFan (Feb 28, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> You'll have to accept my apology concerning that post.
> 
> I've been on a recent kick concerning how myself and other Christians decide things they have no control over rather than studying things that can affect their lives today.
> 
> ...



Thank You and I'm sorry for seeing more into it than was implied. I'm new to posting on anything but golf forums.


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## jmharris23 (Feb 29, 2012)

BrowningFan said:


> JB0704 H E L L - is thrown into the Lake of Fire ...... As far as the Greek that makes is hard. I know a lot of good Godly men say" The Original Greek says " but there is no Original Manuscript found to date. There are two BASICS KINDS of Greek Text .The Received Text (Textus Receptus)which comes from Antioch Syria and  Vaticinios - Sinaiticus ( Westcott and Hort)which come from Alexandria Egypt. Both are very different. I would rather stay with English .... I believe God has preserved his word in English so I never rely on "The Greek" . I know people sound smart by saying but " The Greek" says. What they don't understand is not all Greek Text agrees with each other ( so which Greek are they using?) . Again I will defend the fact that GOD preserved his word PERFECT for English speaking people and I can put my hand on it and it is my Final Authority in all matter of faith and practice.



While what you say here is true, most of our early bibles were translated from the Textus Receptus, i.e., 1611 KJV

It was not the best translations for various reasons! and since then older and more reliable Greek texts have surface allowing for a more complete and literal translation. Obviously, they are all copies of copies, none being completely original, and in this there are some issues. This is where textual criticism comes into play.

But to say, "just stay with the English" is to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Greek is a rich and picturesque language that makes bible study more fulfilling and actually is somewhat necessary in order to deal with some of the more difficult texts.

I don't believe every man needs to be a Greek scholar in order to read and understand the bible, but I do believe that any man who decides to teach or preach the word should at the least have good tools to help him with the "original languages" and at best have a strong hold on the Greek language itself.


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## BrowningFan (Feb 29, 2012)

jmharris23 said:


> While what you say here is true, most of our early bibles were translated from the Textus Receptus, i.e., 1611 KJV
> 
> It was not the best translations for various reasons! and since then older and more reliable Greek texts have surface allowing for a more complete and literal translation. Obviously, they are all copies of copies, none being completely original, and in this there are some issues. This is where textual criticism comes into play.
> 
> ...



Ok your saying it's not the best (TR) and there are more reliable text ..... then why with all omissions of COMPLETE verses  of this older text you are describing as better Example Matthew 17:21 why are they not honest and make verse 22 verse 21 . I mean if the best Greek says verse 21 doesn't belong. 


NIV Read like this

20 He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you. " 22 When they came together in Galilee, he said to them, "The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. 23 They will kill him, and on the third day he will be raised to life." And the disciples were filled with grief.


That is just plain dishonest if the BEST GREEK does't have V21 then verse 21 should be "When they came together in Galilee, he said to them, "The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. 

Do you speak and read Greek?


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## jmharris23 (Feb 29, 2012)

BrowningFan said:


> Ok your saying it's not the best (TR) and there are more reliable text ..... then why with all omissions of COMPLETE verses  of this older text you are describing as better Example Matthew 17:21 why are they not honest and make verse 22 verse 21 . I mean if the best Greek says verse 21 doesn't belong.
> 
> 
> NIV Read like this
> ...



I am not completely sure what you are asking me here? 

If you are asking why the translators of the NIV don't just skip over 21 and make verse 22 verse 21 instead, they don't do that because that would be dishonest. 

Instead what most all translators do is skip a verse that is not found in older more reliable texts and make a footnote that will say something like " in some manuscripts verse  21 says......." 

I read Greek yes, speak it no....I don't know any Greeks


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## BrowningFan (Feb 29, 2012)

jmharris23 said:


> I am not completely sure what you are asking me here?
> 
> If you are asking why the translators of the NIV don't just skip over 21 and make verse 22 verse 21 instead, they don't do that because that would be dishonest.
> 
> ...



You keep saying" Older More Reliable " I disagree and there is evidence to prove this important evidence that was not available to Westcott and Hort. " The Chester Beatty Papyri and Bodmer Papyri--to mention--takes us at least a full century closer to the originals than the previous oldest copies did. [These papyri] while not complete, are extensive enough to establish the text-type they represent for these parts of the New Testament. In date they are close together--all but one from the late second to early third century, which is significantly earlier than the great parchment codices, Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, from the fourth century.

These documents have revolutionized our understanding of the early history of the manuscript tradition of the Greek New Testament. Present day concepts of the great text-types differ markedly from those held before the publication and study of these documents. The words "Caesarean," "Alexandrian," "Western"--and even "Byzantine" or "Syrian"--have changed their significance as labels for groups of manuscripts in the last twenty-five years.[89]" I know this isn't " Chester 1961

I have over 5000 hours of works on this subject and will go as deep into manuscript evidence as you want and we are never going to agree. I have proof and you have proof .

The issue is I believe there is proof (TR) is the Majority Text and is superior. I believe Greek is a dead language and I like the text from Syria .... Acts 11:26 
And when he had found him, he brought him vnto Antioch. And it came to passe, that a whole yeere they assembled themselues with the Church, and taught much people, and the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.



You believe the Egyptian text that omits complete VERSES and 1000's of WORDS and in Mark 1:2 makes God a liar you can't find that quote in Isaiah in a million years even your cross reference is Malachi 3:1 is superior. 

To each his own. No need in debating something we are never going to agree about. My opinion is it's all about $$$$$$$$ over 200 bibles have been written from this Newer Better Greek and no new LIGHT has been shined on anything.All but maybe 6 have gone bankrupt. All have Copy Rights to make $$$$$$$. My Bible has no Copy Right. I'm back to the OP


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## jmharris23 (Feb 29, 2012)

If I had known you were a KJV only guy, I wouldn't have even entered this conversation with you. Sorry for wasting our time


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 29, 2012)

Will the people who go to He11 when they dies come back for the resurrection too? Please explain the second death and losing your resurrected body in He11. Will there be some people in he11 with a body and some without a body?


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## BrowningFan (Feb 29, 2012)

jmharris23 said:


> If I had known you were a KJV only guy, I wouldn't have even entered this conversation with you. Sorry for wasting our time



I'm not a KJV only guy. I'm just a firm believer that God gave us a Final Authority in English and I don't have to learn Greek to know what God says . I say use everything but believe One as the Final Authority. So I would be Final Authority Only guy


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## gordon 2 (Feb 29, 2012)

Just off the top of my head, the purpose of God's judgement is love.  I'm more of a Holy Spirit Final Authority guy--I suspect the lines of Longtitude and Lattitude we impose on God's maps and the influence of Northern European fogs, plagues and dungeon decors on translators.


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## BrowningFan (Feb 29, 2012)

gordon 2 said:


> Just off the top of my head, the purpose of God's judgement is love.  I'm more of a Holy Spirit Final Authority guy--I suspect the lines of Longtitude and Lattitude we impose on God's maps and the influence of Northern European fogs, plagues and dungeon decors on translators.



I like it ..... At least you have a Final Authority in all matters of faith and practice. If you have no Final Authority then you become the Final Authority.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 29, 2012)

BrowningFan said:


> I like it ..... At least you have a Final Authority in all matters of faith and practice. If you have no Final Authority then you become the Final Authority.



Really when it comes to bibles, without being pompouse about it, my all time favorite is the french version of the Jeruselm Bible with anotations.  In comparisson for me, the JB (fr) is a Monte Carlo casino and the KJV is a welsh tavern and however a good stout and a sausage I never refused, the mediteranian sun and sea side balconies of the JB, fountains to my health, to my heart.  I also realize that this has nothing to do with what has been said in this tread so far. Carry on...


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## BrowningFan (Feb 29, 2012)

I've never refused a good stout and sausage either .... the Brethern and I will never agree on having a stout ! Oh well . We will know God's will one day.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 29, 2012)

gordon 2 said:


> Really when it comes to bibles, without being pompouse about it, my all time favorite is the french version of the Jeruselm Bible with anotations.  In comparisson for me, the JB (fr) is a Monte Carlo casino and the KJV is a welsh tavern and however a good stout and a sausage I never refused, the mediteranian sun and sea side balconies of the JB, fountains to my health, to my heart.  I also realize that this has nothing to do with what has been said in this tread so far. Carry on...



Blasphemy


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## gordon 2 (Feb 29, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> Blasphemy



Tie me up and toss me in the pond. Make it on a day I have the gout. *(Stout.)*


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## BrowningFan (Feb 29, 2012)

gordon 2 said:


> Tie me up and toss me in the pond. Make it on a day I have the gout. *(Stout.)*



I want a STOUT!


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 29, 2012)

I just had a good stout and porter at Twain's in Decatur last night. The stout had coffee undertones. Most of their selections were dark & heavy beers. I had a pretty good Ruben sandwich too, I don't know if they have any sausage. It was jazz jam night and my daughter's friend was singing.
I do have some of those pickled red sausage in the gallon jar if anyone wants one!

Okay we'd better get back on track. Could someone answer my question about bodies or souls in He!!.


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## hummerpoo (Mar 1, 2012)

gordon 2 said:


> I'm more of a Holy Spirit Final Authority guy--I suspect the lines of Longtitude and Lattitude we impose on God's maps and the influence of Northern European fogs, plagues and dungeon decors on translators.



I resemble this remark.

Much of God's work is through men, but men do do qualify to carry Final Authority.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 1, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I just had a good stout and porter at Twain's in Decatur last night. The stout had coffee undertones. Most of their selections were dark & heavy beers. I had a pretty good Ruben sandwich too, I don't know if they have any sausage. It was jazz jam night and my daughter's friend was singing.
> I do have some of those pickled red sausage in the gallon jar if anyone wants one!
> 
> Okay we'd better get back on track. Could someone answer my question about bodies or souls in He!!.



Great and cheers. However, did you get my point that the purpose of God's judgement is love. If and when we are grafted to the tree and become a part of it, can that tree  be judged according to man's judgements? It reminds me of what God has caused to be twained and now is one, no man will cause to seperate. God's judgements have vaulted to another plain,-- who's judgements were for the world of the fallen, to which we were born accustomed, they are now proper fitted to the world of the risen: Grace, love, mercy,.... And with that cloth we who hold onto the Kingdom are to serve...the poor. We are born and many born again; death, debt and taxes each to his own.

Perhaps.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 1, 2012)

gordon 2 said:


> Great and cheers. However, did you get my point that the purpose of God's judgement is love. If and when we are grafted to the tree and become a part of it, can that tree  be judged according to man's judgements? It reminds me of what God has caused to be twained and now is one, no man will cause to seperate. God's judgements have vaulted to another plain,-- who's judgements were for the world of the fallen, to which we were born accustomed, they are now proper fitted to the world of the risen: Grace, love, mercy,.... And with that cloth we who hold onto the Kingdom are to serve...the poor. We are born and many born again; death, debt and taxes each to his own.
> 
> Perhaps.



Yes, I get the point on God's judgement is for love. Any good father would impose good discipline & judgement but what about the wrath of God?


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## gordon 2 (Mar 1, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Yes, I get the point on God's judgement is for love. Any good father would impose good discipline & judgement but what about the wrath of God?



I think the wrath of God is a old wife's tale. When I was a small boy I remember playing in my aunts yard, ( she was a very devote catholic woman), and while I was playing I ran full steam ahead my neck into her cloths line. She came outside her door while I was holding onto my pride, rubbing off the pebals imbedded in my elbows and checking my throat and said, " God is punishing you. You must of done something wrong." Nuts! By her logic, I would have been a pavement pelt long before I fetched up in her cloths line.

Some religious traditions, perhaps all, have stressed God's wrath at some time, but I think that "playing with fire your gona get burned" attributed to something created by God with simple spiritual observation we all can see this is created by man.

There was a saying when I was a young man. "If you what a fist in the mouth, give one." This was not an observation obtained in or from communion with the Holy Spirit.

Now a father is still the father even of a sinful son or his sinful dauther.  Yet, there are only so many visits to the father, (7 perhaps) before the children must own-up. They are in the end, the authors of their fates. Blaming a parent for our messed up lives...is called God's wrath when we attribute other than goodness to our best friend God... and blame the devine for our tragedies.

I don't know about you, but for me God can do no wrong. He is a good father.

But perhaps I'm completely off the sidewalk on this and am dangerously walking blind in the street. /??

If you remember that before Obama, many presidents shorlty after the beginning of their term in office proved they had b....boldness by bombing someone or something in the name of the USA, or some other cause. This is older than Ashoka the Indian emperor.  Now do you suppose that those on the recieving end of a cruse were  the receipients of the wrath of God? not unlike the Isrealites being sacked by the Babylon? I and in my communion with Jesus can't see this is so.  Even searching in the prophets, in my view, God's wrath is synomym with man's injustices to other men, or to himself.


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## Israel (Mar 1, 2012)

I am not sure it would be unworthy for us to determine what we mean by judgment, and what we mean by wrath.
Perhaps they are not one in the same?
I need to see God's judgment.
Especially me.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 1, 2012)

Israel said:


> I am not sure it would be unworthy for us to determine what we mean by judgment, and what we mean by wrath.
> Perhaps they are not one in the same?
> I need to see God's judgment.
> Especially me.



Matthew 3:10-12:


"Even now the axe is lying at the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. ‘I baptize you with water for repentance, but one who is more powerful than I is coming after me; I am not worthy to carry his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing-floor and will gather his wheat into the granary; but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.’"

Matthew 13:40-43:


"Just as the weeds are collected and burned up with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and they will throw them into the furnace of fire, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let anyone with ears listen.

----------------------

I think definitions would depend on haveing ears or not. And, we would need a definition or a doctrine to provide us evidence of proper ears.

I foresee countless epiphanies, lead ballons and bubble busters.

Now how do you suppose one would test for ears? Mine ring like old busted TV and radio sets--the kind with tubes in them.


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## BrowningFan (Mar 1, 2012)

gordon 2 said:


> Matthew 3:10-12:
> 
> 
> "Even now the axe is lying at the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. ‘I baptize you with water for repentance, but one who is more powerful than I is coming after me; I am not worthy to carry his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing-floor and will gather his wheat into the granary; but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.’"
> ...



Just Trust That Christ died on the CROSS for your sins and your safe. He did it all at Calvary.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 1, 2012)

BrowningFan said:


> Just Trust That Christ died on the CROSS for your sins and your safe. He did it all at Calvary.



Ditto.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 22, 2012)

BrowningFan said:


> Just Trust That Christ died on the CROSS for your sins and your safe. He did it all at Calvary.



I like this, for my Judgement came at Calvary.It amazes me that what God has made so simple,man complicates.

The judgement is this, Son is his name in your book?


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## Ronnie T (Mar 22, 2012)

Just become a disciple of Christ and don't worry about anything at all.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 22, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> I like this, for my Judgement came at Calvary.It amazes me that what God has made so simple,man complicates.
> 
> The judgement is this, Son is his name in your book?



If you believe Calvary was a judgement then you are home free. You would have to believe in "once saved, always saved". There will be no other judgement for your sins. The "Judgement seat of Christ" is for your works. It's not for how you finished the race, but how you  ran the race.
Would someone who doesn't believe in "OSAS" explain how you can be judged again for your sins? I don't believe in "OSAS" but have no answer.
Believers of "Eternal security" can also add input.
It doesn't seem that simple to me. I guess if i believed in "OSAS" it would be simple.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 22, 2012)

The Judgement seat of Christ will be before Christ. The Great White Throne Judgement will be before God. Why is God still pulling double duty at this point? If God and Jesus are the same, God could have parked his "Jesus body" and left it there until he entered it again for his trip back to Earth.


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## mtnwoman (Mar 23, 2012)

If we are saved we are saved. We will still be judged......on our works and on our continuation of sin.
I believe we will be on levels and I'm pretty sure I'll get in by the skin of my teeth, but I do know I'm saved.

We get rewards for what we do, that's why works are still important but not required to be saved. Salvation is a gift for those who will receive/accept/admit/surrender. Rewards/crowns etc are based on our works....ie I'll probably live in a shack down by the river.

For example, I may be in heaven, but I may be a servant to others, I don't know, just saying. For those we lead to salvation, for our testimoney/witness, for our kindness, for our love for our neighbors, we will be judged.  Doesn't  mean we won't get into heaven, just means whether or not we make the honor role or not and what status that might put us in.


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## formula1 (Mar 23, 2012)

*Re:*

As I think of my moment before the throne, I expect to be completely overwhelmed (I dont' think human words can describe the experience) just as Isaiah and John, yet somehow I know Jesus will be there right by my side, saying 'Fear not, for I am with you'!  He who has the keys is worthy, so I don't have to be.

Isaiah 6:5-7
Revelation 1:17-18


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## hobbs27 (Mar 23, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> The Judgement seat of Christ will be before Christ. The Great White Throne Judgement will be before God. Why is God still pulling double duty at this point? If God and Jesus are the same, God could have parked his "Jesus body" and left it there until he entered it again for his trip back to Earth.



It may help you to read through the scriptures again with a different scenario in mind.Think of it like this, we are judged here on Earth, either we are saved by grace and our names are written in the lambs book of life or it is not.
The great white throne judgement is more of a sentencing phase of your judgement and Jesus will serve as your attorney, If your name is there you will enter in, if not you will depart from him and enter hel.

Will you answer me this one question about losing salvation? Grace is defined as an undeserving love...through grace man can obtain heaven which he never deserved....If we were never deserving of salvation in the first place how can we become even more undeserving?


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## allenww (Mar 23, 2012)

*Grace*

If you simply wish to reside in - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -, kick your dog.


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## thedeacon (Mar 27, 2012)

On the day of judgement there will have to be a traffic director 
because most of us have set ourselves on such a pedistal that
we think, surely God will accept me.

On that day I think we are going to be quite suprised who takes the left fork and who takes the right.

We have worked harder to complicate the word of God than we have to try to understand the simplicity of it.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only son, if you
believe in him you will be saved.

If you love me keep my commandments.

Read the beattitudes. Enter the study looking for the love of God
with love, forget what will happen if you fail, because you will.
Accept God offer him your best and do the very best you can  do.
Grow and continue to grow constantly and consistantly looking to God for the nurishment.

Does God ask for more than that.


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## Kawaliga (Mar 27, 2012)

*Purpose of Gods Judgement*



Artfuldodger said:


> If you believe Calvary was a judgement then you are home free. You would have to believe in "once saved, always saved". There will be no other judgement for your sins. The "Judgement seat of Christ" is for your works. It's not for how you finished the race, but how you  ran the race.
> Would someone who doesn't believe in "OSAS" explain how you can be judged again for your sins? I don't believe in "OSAS" but have no answer.
> Believers of "Eternal security" can also add input.
> It doesn't seem that simple to me. I guess if i believed in "OSAS" it would be simple.



It seems to me that if once saved always saved were not true, then on any given day, the first time you sinned, you would be lost again, for a perfect God cannot abide, nor accept sin. The reality is, we all sin more than once each day, and when we realize it, we need to go to Christ in prayer and ask for forgiveness. I do believe when I get in, my pants will be smoking.


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## Michael F. Gray (Mar 27, 2012)

Great points, much scripture, ...but I fear something amazingly simple may have become complicated. Please allow me to offer one verse, Revelation 20:12 "And I saw the dead, small and great stand before God; and the BOOKS were opened, and another BOOK was opened, which is the Book of Life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the BOOKS, according to their works."
The plural, BOOKS is simply the record(s) of deeds of the unredeemed. This is the Great White Throne Judgment where every knee shall bow and every tongue confess.
Note the SINGULAR BOOK, and the verse tells us  it's the BOOK of Life. The record of every SOUL whose sins have been covered by the redeeming BLOOD of Jesus Christ. This is the record of the "true Church". Now notice the final verse of the same chapter, ...verse 15    "And whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."
May those whose deeds are recorded in the BOOKS seek Jesus, who said, "Those who seek me early shall find me".


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 27, 2012)

Michael F. Gray said:


> Great points, much scripture, ...but I fear something amazingly simple may have become complicated. Please allow me to offer one verse, Revelation 20:12 "And I saw the dead, small and great stand before God; and the BOOKS were opened, and another BOOK was opened, which is the Book of Life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the BOOKS, according to their works."
> The plural, BOOKS is simply the record(s) of deeds of the unredeemed. This is the Great White Throne Judgment where every knee shall bow and every tongue confess.
> Note the SINGULAR BOOK, and the verse tells us  it's the BOOK of Life. The record of every SOUL whose sins have been covered by the redeeming BLOOD of Jesus Christ. This is the record of the "true Church". Now notice the final verse of the same chapter, ...verse 15    "And whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."
> May those whose deeds are recorded in the BOOKS seek Jesus, who said, "Those who seek me early shall find me".


Do you think the Great White Throne Judgement is for the righteous & the wicked? Can you do something to move your name from one book to another, good or bad, or were these entries made from the beginning of time?


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