# MILLION $ QUESTION--Is drinki beer a sin?



## BigBrett

Is drinking beer a sin? Not getting drunk, just drinking beer period. Jesus drank wine at the last supper and numerous other times. I hate to tick off all you T-totalers but it wasn't grape juice. 

I believe as long as you ain't a drunk or hurting yourself/anyone, it ain't gonna curse your soul.


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## apoint

I was also wondering about just one line of cocain or heroin or one joint of pot or just one fling with a prostitute  etc? You know not really getting drunk.


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## decoyed

heck no.  Ok, maybe if you drink Natties.  The God I know would not think it a sin to "drink a beer".


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## deadend

Is drinking a beer more sinful than a sunday after church mondo pig out at Golden Corral?


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## dawg2

...refreshing new topic...


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## Mako22

According to scripture it is impossible for Jesus to have ever drank alchohol to do so would have been a sin and the word tells us that he was without sin. The wine Jesus provided at the marriage feast was indeed grape juice and not alchohol. Christians who drink booze are either backslid or not real born again believers.


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## packrat

*?????*



Woodsman69 said:


> According to scripture it is impossible for Jesus to have ever drank alchohol to do so would have been a sin and the word tells us that he was without sin. The wine Jesus provided at the marriage feast was indeed grape juice and not alchohol. Christians who drink booze are either backslid or not real born again believers.



Mighty bold statement there friend, how can you know a man's heart.
I honestly believe it is not a sin based on personal convictions.
To another it may be sin in their own heart if they go against their true convictions.
That is like saying that anyone who says in judgement 
"Christians who judge another man's heart are either backslid or not real born again believers."


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## deadend

Is taking cough syrup containing alcohol a sin?  Is cleaning a cut with alcohol a sin?  Is eating a double whopper, super size fries, apple pie, and jumbo Coke a sin?


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## decoyed

same ol crapola.  Folks being "good Christians" and passing judgement on the actions of others.  Isn't it ironic, "doncha thank"?  Great thread and thanks for the laughs.


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## BigBrett

apoint said:


> I was also wondering about just one line of cocain or heroin or one joint of pot or just one fling with a prostitute  etc? You know not really getting drunk.



being a smart butt should be a sin too. there is a VERY VERY big difference between doing powder, man or refer and drinking a beer.

this is why i don't go to church, folks. there is some guy who is more holy than thou who, no matter what the topic, will get on his soap box. you sir are a ignorant hypocrite. the word teaches of love(above all), forgiveness and understanding. you have no right to compare a man who drinks a beer or a glass of wine or a cocktail with a man who snorts, shoots or smokes dope. 

jesus's first miracle---turning water into wine in cana. 

if you can, please show me when in time the translation of fruit juice turned into wine........you can't. suck it up and except that the zero tolerance is--IN FACT-- a man made principal; not a godly one.


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## BigBrett

apoint said:


> I was also wondering about just one line of cocain or heroin or one joint of pot or just one fling with a prostitute  etc? You know not really getting drunk.





Woodsman69 said:


> According to scripture it is impossible for Jesus to have ever drank alchohol to do so would have been a sin and the word tells us that he was without sin. The wine Jesus provided at the marriage feast was indeed grape juice and not alchohol. Christians who drink booze are either backslid or not real born again believers.



please quote the scripture. all i have read says," to be a drunkered"


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## olchevy

I believe as long as you don't drink anymore than you can handle while still keeping a level head and mind, there is no problem. But everyone looks at it in different ways.


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## BigBrett

dawg2 said:


> ...refreshing new topic...



 sarcasm?


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## formula1

*Re:*

If you believed it to be sin, would you give it up?

The walk of a believer is about a relationship with Jesus, where obedience to what ever he asks of you flows out of you because of your love for Him. 

Anything else is dead religion. And dead religion is void of life or any saving power.

May God cause you to truly search for Him!


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## packrat

*??*



bwn_us said:


> this is why i don't go to church, folks. there is some guy who is more holy than thou who, no matter what the topic, will get on his soap box. you sir are a ignorant hypocrite. the word teaches of love(above all), forgiveness and understanding.



Let me say this with a loving and non-judgemental heart. I agree with you on the 1 beer deal, but your "this is why i don't go to church, folks" statement is as lame as some of the one beer responses. If you choose not to attend church, then that is your decision & you have chosen to blame "your decision" on others. Sure ALL churches have some hypocrites in them, but the real reason lies much deeper. BUT you have the right to do as you see fit. The WORLD is full of hypocrites, liars, thieves & filth, but I can't stay in a hole and blame others for MY choice.


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## gtparts

Perhaps we would do well to let the one without sin cast the first stone.


What????

Did I hear stones hitting the ground????


Thought so. 

I'll leave this to those trying to justify the use of beverage alcohol on one side and those who are steeped in legalism on the other side to answer the question. God will surely find time to sort this out between you folks.


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## dawg2

bwn_us said:


> sarcasm?



Yes.

"All things in moderation."

It is not a sin.  Jesus turned water into WINE.  There was a reason he said to serve the good wine FIRST and the cheaper wine SECOND.


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## Jeff Raines

Woodsman69 said:


> According to scripture it is impossible for Jesus to have ever drank alchohol to do so would have been a sin and the word tells us that he was without sin. The wine Jesus provided at the marriage feast was indeed grape juice and not alchohol. Christians who drink booze are either backslid or not real born again believers.



So he had a few grapes in his pocket and squeezed them into the containers of water????....Where is the miracle?

The water was turned into fermented wine.It takes time for fermentation to take place.

Or as one Pastor put it"The water saw it's Lord and blushed"


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## BigBrett

packrat said:


> Let me say this with a loving and non-judgemental heart. I agree with you on the 1 beer deal, but your "this is why i don't go to church, folks" statement is as lame as some of the one beer responses. If you choose not to attend church, then that is your decision & you have chosen to blame "your decision" on others. Sure ALL churches have some hypocrites in them, but the real reason lies ma uch deeper. BUT you have the right to do as you see fit. The WORLD is full of hypocrites, liars, thieves & filth, but I can't stay in a hole and blame others for MY choice.



the body is the temple. my bible has not been unopened in many years. i have been a front row spectator of a "church split". i have not lost faith, only faith in man's church. i sincerely wish i could find a church i didn't have hesitation's about attending......but for the record, you don't have to be a member of a church to walk in his kingdom.


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## wilber85

If I cant throw back a six pack in heaven then I believe I'll just stay here.


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## Ronnie T

Does not have to apply to you, but for me, drinking even a beer would be a sin.

Reason:  I love iced tea, grape juice, water, pepsi, and lots of other things to drink.
I also know that drinking just one beer has had some devastating effects on some people's lives because of what that one drink did to them 6 months later.

Think how different life would be if everyone stopped drinking even one beer.  The date-rapes, the broken marriages, the auto accident deaths, etc.

I don't live in 1st century Jerusalem.
Things are different now.
It would be a sin for me to drink a beer.


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## Ronnie T

wilber85 said:


> If I cant throw back a six pack in heaven then I believe I'll just stay here.



A lot of christian's feel the same way.


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## packrat

*yep*



bwn_us said:


> the body is the temple.
> Agreed
> my bible has not been unopened in many years.
> Great, read it till the day you die.
> i have been a front row spectator of a "church split".
> Me Too! 3 times
> i have not lost faith, only faith in man's church.
> There is no man's church, there is God's church.
> The building is just where the church meets for fellowship & encouragement. You have to keep your eyes on God, Man will let you down, God won't.
> i sincerely wish i could find a church i didn't have hesitation's about attending......
> If you are ever in N.E. Ga, drop me a line,
> our church ain't perfect, but we love the Lord and each other.
> but for the record, you don't have to be a member of a church to walk in his kingdom.



You are correct, but it is easier to become a mature Christian in fellowship with other believers. Kinda like fishing with your buddies; It's fun and educating to fish with friends, but it wouldn't be fun to fish with a snooty PETA member.


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## gtparts

wilber85 said:


> If I cant throw back a six pack in heaven then I believe I'll just stay here.



What's the point??? There is no thirst in heaven..... just living water.

Beside that, corpses don't throw back beverages of any kind. 

Needless to say, I find your response rather humorous.


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## 1gr8bldr

Interesting thing Paul said, Anything that does not come from faith is a sin. Let me paraphrase this with another topic. Many of the mature in that day realized that meats sacrificed to idols was of no concern to them. So, for them it was not a sin, their conscience was clear. Now for those imature, who were not sure, but indulged themselves cause they wanted to all the while feeling guilty cause they saw it as a sin, to them it is a sin. By the way, I don't drink but I will say that qualifcations for deacons are that they are not drunkards. It does not say anything about drinking. Another side of this coin, comparing to scripture but not what scripture says but similar in context: if an immature believer sees you getting, well lets say "tippsy" in a bar, will this not make him stumble.


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## 1gr8bldr

Paul rebuked the church for turning the Lord's supper into a big feast where the point of this meal was being lost. He pointed out"don't you have homes to get drunk in". We can assume from this that alcohol was present at this feast.


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## Ronnie T

1gr8bldr said:


> Paul rebuked the church for turning the Lord's supper into a big feast where the point of this meal was being lost. He pointed out"don't you have homes to get drunk in". We can assume from this that alcohol was present at this feast.



I don't think my Bible says that.
Could you tell me which version you use?

.


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## 1gr8bldr

Ronnie T said:


> I don't think my Bible says that.
> Could you tell me which version you use?
> 
> .


1 Cor 11:22, NIV but I will ck greek tomorrow to see if agrees


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## Lowjack

Woodsman69 said:


> According to scripture it is impossible for Jesus to have ever drank alchohol to do so would have been a sin and the word tells us that he was without sin. The wine Jesus provided at the marriage feast was indeed grape juice and not alchohol. Christians who drink booze are either backslid or not real born again believers.



As A Jew I have to tell you are Mistaken, fermented Wine was required for all the feasts.
But The wine Was Cut 2/3 water 1/3 wine so that even the kids could partake of the feasts.This is also a fulfillment of the death of the Messiah when the Spear went into his side and water and blood came out, meaning 2/3 blood serum and 1/3 red blood cells which is the composition of whole blood.
IMO, one should be watching for all the sins mentioned in the Law Of God, I yet have not found one that says "thou shalt not drink wine."
Drinking grape juice in the Lords' Seder can be considered a prostitution of the Law.
Paul Warns that taking the Seder wrongfully had caused many to be diseased in the Church.


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## 270 guy

bwn_us said:


> Is drinking beer a sin? Not getting drunk, just drinking beer period. Jesus drank wine at the last supper and numerous other times. I hate to tick off all you T-totalers but it wasn't grape juice.
> 
> I believe as long as you ain't a drunk or hurting yourself/anyone, it ain't gonna curse your soul.



Only problem I have is your testimony to others if you claim to be a Christian.

Say your trying to get your neighbor saved and you have been talking to him for a while now. You decide to go to john q's bar. What happens when your neighbor  sees you there drinking what does that say about your testimony to the one you are supposed to be living better then so to speak as a Christian?


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## hayseed_theology

Lowjack said:


> I yet have not found one that says "thou shalt not drink wine."



Me either.  For years I wanted to find it though.  I wanted it to be a sin.  I made drinking alcohol the litmus test of true spirituality.  Come to find out, Scripture doesn't do the same.


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## Ronnie T

1gr8bldr said:


> 1 Cor 11:22, NIV but I will ck greek tomorrow to see if agrees



I personally don't believe that verse is saying that they had homes to go to if they wanted to get drunk.


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## Six million dollar ham

bwn_us said:


> being a smart butt should be a sin too. there is a VERY VERY big difference between doing powder, man or refer and drinking a beer.
> 
> this is why i don't go to church, folks. there is some guy who is more holy than thou who, no matter what the topic, will get on his soap box. you sir are a ignorant hypocrite. the word teaches of love(above all), forgiveness and understanding. you have no right to compare a man who drinks a beer or a glass of wine or a cocktail with a man who snorts, shoots or smokes dope.
> 
> jesus's first miracle---turning water into wine in cana.



Wow.  Far be it from me to defend apoint, but I don't see how he was being a smart butt there.  This is coming from a guy who disagrees with him 99% of the time in this forum.  Your attack on apoint is puzzling.  Maybe you should drink a beer.


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## gatorboy

As someone who enjoys a cold beer at camp & is a born again believer, this is a question I too have had.  Paul tells us in Romans 14:21 that "it is better not to eat meat or drink the wine or do anything else that might cause a believer to stumble."  To stumble in your walk with Christ is what we strive to avoid, but it's going to happen.  The world looks at Christians as hypocrites who think they are perfect, but the truth is we are not perfect but we are FORGIVEN!

If you are thinking of this question it is my understanding of the holy spirit that you may be convicted of it which is resulting in your minds questioning.  I would turn to the Lord and ask the million dollar question, you may be surprised what he tells you or better yet what he shows you.


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## olcowman

I have never found anything in the Bible that said if I drank alcohol I would be committing a sin. And I have never read anywhere that if I didn't attend man's organized religous services that I would not be going to Heaven. Now I have heard all my life, just the opposite, heard it screamed at me from the pulpit at times and whispered in my ear during prayer at others. I have sat and watched preachers spend almost 2 hours telling me that if i drank and didn't come to his church... well I would be needing to be buried with some fire proof underwear on!

A few years ago the Lord compelled me to open his Book and find the path to him myself. He and I have shared more than a few laughs over some of the stuff folks was trying to tell me was in the Bible! It is one of his greatest gifts IMO, my ability to read and understand quite clearly, just what he needs for me to do. I ain't to worried about what my neighbors think or what some preacher feels  i need to do anymore...


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## hayseed_theology

1gr8bldr said:


> 1 Cor 11:22, NIV but I will ck greek tomorrow to see if agrees



I don't think Paul means drunk in verse 22 there.  All the translations I looked at used "drink."  The Greek word there is "pino" which is the standard verb for "to drink," rather than "methuo" which is "to be drunk."

However, in verse 21, he does say that some are drunk("methuo") at the Lord's Supper, so I would say your conclusion is correct that the wine at the service must have contained alcohol.  But, based on verse 21, not verse 22.  And, I would say Paul is not telling them to go be drunk at home.


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## biggtruxx

olchevy said:


> I believe as long as you don't drink anymore than you can handle while still keeping a level head and mind, there is no problem. But everyone looks at it in different ways.


 
They certainly do!



packrat said:


> Let me say this with a loving and non-judgemental heart. I agree with you on the 1 beer deal, but your "this is why i don't go to church, folks" statement is as lame as some of the one beer responses. If you choose not to attend church, then that is your decision & you have chosen to blame "your decision" on others. Sure ALL churches have some hypocrites in them, but the real reason lies much deeper. BUT you have the right to do as you see fit. The WORLD is full of hypocrites, liars, thieves & filth, but I can't stay in a hole and blame others for MY choice.


I believe that Church helps a man to stay level minded.



packrat said:


> You are correct, but it is easier to become a mature Christian in fellowship with other believers. Kinda like fishing with your buddies; It's fun and educating to fish with friends, but it wouldn't be fun to fish with a snooty PETA member.


 I am not here on this Earth to find friends who have stipulations on what should and should not be done. Judge yet you be judged. I think it is not a sin to partake in a friendly drink and I was raised a baptistin a good ole baptist church. I think you reak what you sow. If your life is in tact and you treat people the way you should be treated and you live as if you were going to be held in the redemption of the lord our christ he would be looking for those who lived for someone and something other than themselves. All sins are forgiveable.If you ask for forgiveness then you will be made whole! I serve a forgiving god!


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## Mako22

packrat said:


> Mighty bold statement there friend, how can you know a man's heart.
> I honestly believe it is not a sin based on personal convictions.
> To another it may be sin in their own heart if they go against their true convictions.
> That is like saying that anyone who says in judgement
> "Christians who judge another man's heart are either backslid or not real born again believers."



Nothing bold about it at all, if you drink booze you are sinning and so you are either a back slider or one who is not saved.


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## Mako22

Lowjack said:


> As A Jew I have to tell you are Mistaken, fermented Wine was required for all the feasts.
> But The wine Was Cut 2/3 water 1/3 wine so that even the kids could partake of the feasts.This is also a fulfillment of the death of the Messiah when the Spear went into his side and water and blood came out, meaning 2/3 blood serum and 1/3 red blood cells which is the composition of whole blood.
> IMO, one should be watching for all the sins mentioned in the Law Of God, I yet have not found one that says "thou shalt not drink wine."
> Drinking grape juice in the Lords' Seder can be considered a prostitution of the Law.
> Paul Warns that taking the Seder wrongfully had caused many to be diseased in the Church.



Wrong.


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## Jeff Raines

Woodsman69 said:


> Nothing bold about it at all, if you drink booze you are sinning and so you are either a back slider or one who is not saved.



Back it up with the Bible


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## Mako22

Blah, blah, blah, I'll keep my booze and my wicked life style and still get into heaven. News flash! Christ actually expects you to change from darkness to light after you get saved! Yes you actually will have a desire to quit drinking, cussing, lying and looking at pornography after you get born again. No change then no conversion, no conversion then no going to heaven. Booze in all it's forms is straight out of the pit of H... and Jesus never drank one drop of that wicked stuff. Hey next time y'all take a drink of that liquid devil go ahead and say a blessing over it since it's so good for you, I mean it never killed anybody in a car wreck, it never caused any fights or murder. Just go ahead and bow your head and ask Jesus to bless that can of Bud Dumber your about to swig down. I'd put it down, repent and ask Jesus to save me is what I would do in that situation.


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## Mako22

Jeff Raines said:


> Back it up with the Bible



I have in several post about this very same subject, go get your bible and find it yourself.


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## 1gr8bldr

1gr8bldr said:


> 1 Cor 11:22, NIV but I will ck greek tomorrow to see if agrees


After looking at this from the greek, I see that the NIV has poorly translated this.


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## Lowjack

Woodsman69 said:


> Wrong.



He he he , LOL

Jesus Drank Wine not Juice.
 Luke 7:33-34 "For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, he hath a devil. The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners."
and;
Winemaking in Ancient Israel
By Garrett Peck
Download article (4.8 MB)


Winemaking in ancient Israel dates back at least 2,000 years before the Romans occupied the region – and possibly several thousand years before then. The Israelites probably picked up the craft from the neighboring Canaanites and Phoenicians, and winemaking abounded throughout the Mediterranean. Hundreds of ancient winepresses have been uncovered and excavated throughout modern Israel. Yet wine was much more than a staple of life to Jews: it was a symbol of their freedom from bondage and a necessity in every Jewish religious ceremony. Haim Gan, Israel’s Grape Man in Old Jaffa, remarked, “Wine is at the heart of the Jewish tradition.” 


Two terms for wine are used throughout the Bible. In the Hebrew Scriptures (the Old Testament), the Hebrew word is yayin, while the Christian New Testament, written in Greek, used the word oinos, from which we get our word “wine.” Both meant the same thing: fermented wine. There is no word for unfermented wine in Scripture. Wine is wine. It was always fermented.  


In the early nineteenth century, the evangelical Protestants who started the temperance movement in America argued that there were two kinds of wine in ancient Israel: fermented and unfermented. Because they chose to abstain from drinking, they made the unfounded claim that Jesus abstained as well. They did this to justify their political campaign to ban alcohol, which ultimately resulted in Prohibition (1920-1933). The temperance movement’s claim for two kinds of wine was neither archaeologically, biblically, historically, nor scientifically correct, as we’ll see in this article. The reality is that Judaism has never had a theological issue with alcohol. 


Ancient Israel was an agrarian society. Most people farmed. They grew wheat, olives, tended orchards, herded goats, sheep and cattle, and grew grapes. References to winemaking abound in the Hebrew Scriptures. Grape growing, festivals, drunkenness, and thanksgiving for wine – they’re all there. It really shows that wine was part of everyday Jewish culture. Only the Book of Jonah has no reference to either wine or the vine. 


The ancients didn’t understand microbes and gastrointestinal disease, but they knew that drinking water led to sickness and sometimes death. The water supply was often contaminated, particularly around settlements that had no sanitation, or even in short supply during droughts. So they drank wine but diluted it with water, both to quench the thirst and to dilute the effects of such strong drink. This kept them healthy.  In fact, the phrase “strong drink” in the Bible may refer to undiluted wine.  


When I attended the Israwinexpo 2008, a biannual event in Tel Aviv to draw international attention to Israeli wine, I learned just how scarce water can be in Israel. A winemaker rinsed my wineglass with wine instead of water, swirled it around, then dumped it out. He joked, “In Israel, we have more wine than water” as he refilled it with another wine sample to taste. 


The first reference to wine in the Bible is comical. Everyone knows the story of Noah, and how after the rain ended he sent out a dove that returned with an olive branch.  After his family left the ark, he planted a vineyard, got drunk, and passed out. (Genesis 9:20-21) 


As Moses led the Hebrews out of Egypt, he sent spies into the Promised Land to scout it out. Like Noah’s dove, they returned bearing a gift: a great cluster of grapes that signified the land’s bounty. (Numbers 13:23-25) 


Ecclesiastes offered praise for wine several times. The writer, possibly King Solomon, understood that wine brought joy to life and that was something to celebrate.  “Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favors what you do.” (Ecclesiastes 9:7) And later he wrote, “A feast is made for laughter, and wine makes life merry.” (Ecclesiastes 10:19) 


One of the most beautiful of all the Psalms, Psalm 104, celebrates the natural wonder of the world and praises God for the sustenance that fed his people.  


                            He makes grass grow for the cattle, 
                            and plants for man to cultivate – 
                            bringing forth food from the earth:
                            Wine that gladdens the heart of man,
                            oil to make his face shine,
                            and bread that sustains his heart. 
                                        (Psalm 104:14-15) 


This Psalm celebrates the basics of the Jewish diet: cattle for milk and occasionally meat, olive oil, bread, and wine. Wine brings us joy – and that is a wonderful thing. It made every meal into an enjoyable experience. Wine eased the pain and hardship of manual labor on the farm. 


These passages from the Hebrew Scriptures indicate an acceptance of wine as part of their culture, and consistent with their faith. People drank wine everyday in ancient Israel and throughout the Mediterranean. This legacy continues today in modern Israel, as well as Italy, France, Spain, Portugal, Greece, and other Mediterranean countries that have drank wine for millennia. 



Viticulture in Ancient Israel 


Israel is about the size of New Jersey. The climate is semi-arid, much better for grapes than barley (thus the Israelites and the Phoenicians to the north in Lebanon made wine, while the Egyptians and Babylonians brewed beer). Grape vines grow best on rocky hills with poor soil, allowing the Israelites to use the valleys for growing grain. The slopes ensured good drainage and captured the sunlight, while breezes cooled the vines. Grapes were grown all over Israel: from Galilee in the north to the Judeaan Hills around Jerusalem. 


Dr. Carey Ellen Walsh wrote her doctoral dissertation on winemaking in ancient Israel while studying at Harvard University; she now teaches at Walsh University in Ohio. She published Fruit of the Vine: Viticulture in Ancient Israel (2000), providing a detailed study of ancient viticulture. Walsh goes through the prophet Isaiah’s “Song of the Vineyard,” showing how each step in the winemaking process was based on real experience (Isaiah 5:1-7). Isaiah chose the vineyard as a metaphor, since most Israelites farmed, and people would identify with it.  


                            The Song of the Vineyard 

                            I will sing for the one I love
                            a song about his vineyard: 
                            My loved one had a vineyard 
                            On a fertile hillside. 
                            He dug it up and cleared it of stones
                            and planted it with the choicest of vines.  
                            He built a watchtower in it
                            and cut out a winepress as well.  
                            Then he looked for a crop of good grapes, 
                            but it yielded only bad fruit.  
                                         (Isaiah 5:1-7) 





The Art of Making Wine 


Archaeological digs have uncovered hundreds of ancient winepresses throughout Israel, known as Gat in Hebrew. The country is largely a land of limestone rock and thin soil. Winepresses were carved out of the limestone bedrock near the vineyards so the farmers could crush the grapes as soon as they were picked. It was a simple operation: they crushed the grapes in a shallow, flat crush pad with their feet, and the juice flowed downhill into a fermentation pit. 


Once the juice stopped bubbling, the farmers simply scooped the fermented wine into goatskins directly from the fermentation pit. The nuclear family – perhaps even an entire village – worked together to harvest the grapes and crush them. During harvest, people built temporary huts right in the vineyards. Even small farmers owned a winepress.  


“We have hundreds of these old wine presses around my winery,” said Shivi Drori, owner and winemaker at the Gvaot Winery in Israel’s Shomron region north of Jerusalem. He added, “We see the winery as a link in the chain of wine production in this area starting 3,500 years ago.” 



Tzuba is a kibbutz, or collective farm, in the Judean Hills just west of Jerusalem at about 720 meters (nearly 2,400 feet) above sea level. Wine was made there in King David’s time if not before, when it was known as Suba. People grew grapes and made wine continually for more than 1,600 years before the Muslims conquered the area in the 7th Century CE and ripped out the vines. Consequently, Israel’s indigenous vines are thought to be extinct. 


In 1848, Rabbi Schorr founded the first recorded winery in what is now Israel. French winemaker Baron Edmond de Rothschild, owner of Chateau Lafite in Bordeaux, invested heavily in replanting vines in Palestine in the 1880s. Today Israel largely grows European varietals like Cabernet Sauvignon, Chardonnay, Merlot and Syrah. Kibbutz Tzuba started growing wine grapes in 1996, and began making its own wine in 2005. 


Everywhere in the Judean Hills, there are agricultural terraces from ancient days scattered over the hillsides and valleys below. In the photo below of a vineyard at Kibbutz Tzuba, you clearly see the terraces on the hillside beyond. People scratched out a living for thousands of years among the rocks and thin soil. The semi-arid region gets little rain except in winter. Today the hills are being reforested, and Israel has made the desert bloom with drip irrigation. 



Grapes are perishable. Their skins are thin. Lacking refrigeration, they rot quickly once harvested in a hot climate. Grapes were not an item that could be easily transported, at least not until they were turned into wine or raisins. Jewish farmers did the sensible thing: they crushed their grapes immediately after harvest and fermented the juice into wine to preserve it. 


Jesus of Nazareth, the messiah to Christians, was himself a Jew. In one of his most famous parables, Jesus related how new wineskins, made from goat hides, were like his teachings. 


                    No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch will pull away from the garment, making the                         tear worse. Neither do men pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst, the wine will run out and                         the wineskins will be ruined [my italics] No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.  
                                (Matthew 9:16-17; see also Mark 2:21-22 and Luke 5:36-38) 


Jesus drew a metaphor that every Israelite farmer understood: they knew that wineskins expand when new wine is poured in – either because the first fermentation wasn’t quite complete, or from the second (malolactic) fermentation. They didn’t understand that the expansion was from carbon dioxide (a byproduct of fermentation), but they knew that a new wineskin was flexible and could expand. An old wineskin was already stretched, so pouring in new wine caused it to burst as the juice fermented. Jesus clearly knew a thing or two about wine.  



The ancient Israelites grew their crops year-round, rather than in just one growing season, and they had three major harvests. Barley and wheat were planted in the fall to take advantage of the winter rains; barley was then harvested in March or April, and wheat about a month later.  The country gets virtually no rain during the summer, and that’s when the olives, fruit trees and vines ripen. These are picked in August and September. 


Every harvest culminated in a weeklong pilgrimage to Jerusalem. Much of the Jewish nation converged on the city for offerings at the Temple and to celebrate. The three harvest pilgrimage festivals were Passover (Pesach), Pentecost (Shavuot), and Tabernacles (Sukkot). 


The third annual pilgrimage, Sukkot, was the Feast of Tabernacles, which celebrated the fall harvest of grapes, olives and fruits. During the harvest, people slept in temporary huts in the vineyards. Once the harvest was in, the wine fermented and the olives pressed into oil, they made the pilgrimage to Jerusalem once again – this time commemorating their ancestors' journey from Egypt to Canaan, the land of plenty. Then they returned home, sowed their winter barley and wheat, and started the annual farming cycle over. (Another week-long festival was added in the 2nd century BCE: Hannukah, celebrating the successful Maccabean Revolt against the Syrians. That is considered to be a minor holiday compared to the big three.) 


Passover was the first and most important of the three harvest festivals, and it’s worth examining. This will give us significant clues into Jewish attitudes about alcohol, as well as enlighten us on the Christian Holy Week. The two events – Passover and Jesus’s crucifixion – are inextricably linked. 


Pilgrims brought the staples of their diet for their sacrificial offerings: goatskins full of wine, olive oil, matzah and a new-born lamb to sacrifice and then grill. The Paschal lamb itself was a powerful symbol: while they were held captive in Egypt, the Israelites had painted lambs’ blood on the doors of their houses on the eve of the first Passover. The Angel of Death passed over Egypt to kill all first-born except for those houses marked with lambs’ blood. 


Passover customs as we know them today are a reflection of post-Diaspora Judaism. They evolved during the Middle Ages and include the Haggadah, a book of Passover readings penned in the thirteenth century. At Passover, every participant must drink four glasses of wine, one glass for each promise that God made to the people of Israel in Exodus 6:6-7: 


                        I am the Lord, and I will bring you out from under the yoke of the Egyptians [first glass]. I will free you from being                                 slaves to them [second glass], and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with mighty acts of judgment [third                         glass]. I will take you as my own people, and I will be your God [fourth glass]. 

A fifth glass of wine is filled for the prophet Elijah, the door is left open to invite him in, and a space left him for him at the table, as he is to be the herald for the messiah. The Haggadah is read to recall the ten plagues that afflicted Egypt while the Hebrews were slaves. My friend Paul Rothstein explained, “Upon the reading of each plague each person is supposed to dip their pinky into the glass of wine and remove a drop of wine. The explanation is that you should never celebrate the imposition of pain even on your enemies; by removing the drop of wine you are lessening your joy on the holiday.” The Seder ends with the saying, “Next year in Jerusalem!” both to celebrate freedom from bondage, and to recall the ancient pilgrimages to the Temple.  


Passover wine must be kosher – that is, properly made according to Jewish dietary laws. Interestingly, no leavened foods are allowed at Passover, though alcoholic wine is. The ancient Jews had no understanding that leavened bread and wine are linked through yeasts. The difference is that leavening must be added to bread for it to rise; for wine, natural yeasts are already on the grape skins, and these start fermenting when the grape is crushed. 


Wine is also required at other Jewish ceremonies besides Passover: for example, at least two glasses are drunk at weddings, and one glass at a circumcision. Every Friday evening Sabbath (Shabbat) meal starts with a Kiddush, or prayer, over the wine. Morris Chafetz, M.D., a Jewish psychiatrist in Washington, DC who founded the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA), remarked, “I had my first drink when I was a week old. When Jewish boys are circumcised, they are given a little bit of wine mixed with water. It’s part of the ceremony.” It is socially acceptable to get a little tipsy at a Passover Seder, but since this is a family celebration, things don’t get out of hand. At the raucous holiday of Purim, Jews are expected to drink to an inebriated state. “Once a year you have to get drunk,” said Israel’s Grape Man, Haim Gan. “You have to drink until you’re not yourself.” 



Jesus in Jerusalem 


Much of the four Christian Gospels focus on Jesus’s last week, which he spent in Jerusalem, known to Christians as Holy Week and ending in Easter. But why did he come to the city in the first place? We know that he did – he was executed there – but why did he come there at all, when most of his ministry was centered around Galilee, itself one of the main winemaking regions in northern Israel? 

What Christians refer to as the Last Supper was actually a Passover Seder – the food served specifically mentions bread and wine (though strangely, there is no mention of a lamb). Red wine looks like blood, and Jesus drew the connection. “Then [Jesus] took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to [the twelve Disciples], and they all drank from it. ‘This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many,’ he said to them. ‘I tell you the truth, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it anew in the kingdom of God.’” (Mark 14:23-25. The story is told similarly in Matthew 26:27-29, and Luke 22:20.) Wine took on a mystical quality representing Jesus’s blood. According to the Catholic Church, the wine literally becomes the blood of Christ during the Eucharist, an event called Transubstantiation. 


For those who still insist that Jesus’s wine at the Last Supper was somehow unfermented, consider this: the grape harvest was six months earlier. There was no possible way for grape juice to be available at Passover without fermentation getting in the way, as fresh grapes won’t last that long. (Dr. Thomas Bramwell Welch didn’t invent the pasteurization process to create “unfermented wine” until 1869. That’s when Welch’s Grape Juice was born, and he did it specifically so Protestants could have grape juice at communion.) Jesus’s wine was fermented wine. 





Wine was at the very heart of the Jewish tradition. It was used in everyday life in ancient Israel, and it was likewise included in every religious ceremony, whether at home or in the harvest pilgrimages to Jerusalem. From shipwrecks carrying hundreds of amphorae, to public records and the Bible, to excavated winepresses, we know that wine was an important staple of life for people in ancient Israel and throughout the Mediterranean.

See Pics Of Old Wineries; http://www.prohibitionhangover.com/israelwine.html


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Ronnie T said:


> I personally don't believe that verse is saying that they had homes to go to if they wanted to get drunk.


Nor do I, but it may give hint, but not conclusive, as to whether alcohol was present at these church suppers.


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## vanguard1

well I can speak from fact, I wish I had never took one sip of the junk, I played around with it and it a few years I was trapped in its hold, can you play with fire and not get burned? can you play with snakes and not get bit? some think they can. all I can do is warn you LEAVE IT ALONE, I have never heard one person say "hey my life is so much better because I started drinking" why do you think your head hurts after drinking? or some get sick? HELLO your body is rejecting the poison. some people like I was thought they are special I can handle this, others are just week minded, what a fool I was.


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## FritzMichaels

in the history of the world there aint been 1 good thing come from drinkin. except for maybe all the little unplanned babies that were given life because of a 12 pack.  i dont think that 1 beer is sin. i do think that 1 beer shows a weakness. one of which i am guilty. alcohol has had me in bondage off and on since i was 15. God wants his children in NO bondage... almost killt myself many times over it. woke up next to girls i had no bizzness being in bed with, on and on. nothing good can from it. is one beer a sin, probably not, but 1 beer can lead to millions of sins and even death. it aint wise to drink. why flirt with danger. God said he would destroy anyone who defiles the temple of the holy spirit. Putting poison in your temple, would that not be defilement although not sexually but still a defilement. if i aint said it already, nothing good can come from any alcohol.


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## Dominic

vanguard1 said:


> why do you think your head hurts after drinking? or some get sick? HELLO your body is rejecting the poison.



That is only after drinking too much alcohol.

Your body rejects too much food also.

You can drink too much water and kill yourself.

The fact is too much of anything, even pure oxygen can be toxic.

Which is why they spoke of drunkards in the scriptures, and not just having a drink.


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## Dominic

Who is in greater sin the teetotaler who is grossly overweight, who has more plaque in their arteries then on their teeth, who has diabetes, and has a laundry list of other lifestyle illnesses or the person that has taken care of their body is of normal weight, has normal cholesterol levels, has normal blood pressure and has a couple of drinks a night?


How many of you that are so against drinking are overweight, have high cholesterol, have diabetes, have high blood pressure or any number of lifestyle-induced illnesses?


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## Jeff Phillips

Jesus loved a good party

He performed his first miracle at one

To answer the original question: Drinking in moderation is not a sin according to God's Word. 

If you personally are under conviction to avoid alcohol, please avoid it, but do not condemn others who are not under your conviction by adding to the Word!


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## chiefsquirrel83

I am a Christian. And I love beer! Especially real German beer! It is at all my gatherings and it is with me at hunt camp, around a bon fire, or in my man cave on my drum set! I am not backslid. I figured judging someone or condemning to Hades before knowing that person is a tad bit more sinful.


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## dbodkin

You guys thump your Bibles.. I'll have my beer...

Ben said it best...

"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."


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## rjcruiser

Drinking Beer is a sin.

Drinking wine...it's okay as long as you water it down like Christ did.


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## gatorbob

*beer*

No, its a sin not to drink beer


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## Buck Nasty

And people wonder why I dont go to church anymore....

I am a baptized believer.
I am a beer drinker.
I love God and Jesus.
God and Jesus love me.
I dont judge others who drink beer.
Others should not judge me because I drink beer.
I am a sinner.
We are all sinners.


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## vanguard1

Jeff Phillips said:


> Jesus loved a good party
> 
> He performed his first miracle at one
> 
> To answer the original question: Drinking in moderation is not a sin according to God's Word.
> 
> If you personally are under conviction to avoid alcohol, please avoid it, but do not condemn others who are not under your conviction by adding to the Word!



ok since you asked for it here it is, what the bible says:

Leviticus 10:9 (King James Version)

 9Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:


Numbers 6:3 (King James Version)

 3He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried

Judges 13:7 (King James Version)

 7But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, neither eat any unclean thing: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death.



Proverbs 20
 1Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.


Proverbs 23:29-35 (King James Version)

 29Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? 

 30They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. 

 31Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. 

 32At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. 

 33Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things. 

 34Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast. 

 35They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.


I never seen so many people callin on the name of the Lord to defend drinking, shows how strong a grip it has on people.


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## Gabassmaster

I beilieve if you even sit there and wonder for a millisecond if its wrong it is... if it wasnt wrong you wouldnt have to ask.


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## vanguard1

Jesus and Wine
Did Jesus turn water into “alcoholic” wine at a party? 
Did Jesus drink alcoholic wine? It is assumed by a great many that He did. Let’s examine this for a moment. Do you know how much wine Jesus made during His first miracle at the wedding feast of Cana? He made 6 firkins, or about 150 gallons. Now, of course, the New International Version (NIV), which never changes anything of significance (yea, right), says by implication that Jesus did this “after the GUESTS had too much to drink”. You do understand that Jesus was a GUEST don't you??? So, let me understand this correctly, Jesus was at a party where the guests were drinking to excess, Jesus was one of the guests, and He supplied a few extra kegs to liven things up a bit after they had already drank to excess. Is that your Jesus? 

Jesus Sinned? 
The King James Bible (KJB) rendering which states they had "well drunken" (had plenty to drink) is the correct one. The New American Standard Version and other literal modern versions agree with the KJB here, leaving the NIV alone in its radically liberal paraphrase. Even if you take the rendering in the KJB, which I do, you have to conclude the guests had drank their fill of wine. If this wine was alcoholic then it is likely that they would not be ready for another 150 gallons of alcoholic wine. Think about it. How many glass of wine would this be? If you figure 4 ounces to a glass, 128 ounces to a gallon, you get 32 glasses of wine per gallon and a grand total of 4,800 glasses of wine.  Now I do not know how many people were at this feast, but surely 500 would be a large number for such an event at this time. If this wine was alcoholic then Jesus did cause all who were there to drink to excess. This is clearly a sin in the Old Testament. Not only would His excessive drinking have been a sin, but causing others to do so is also a sin. Every Jew present at this wedding, and they were undoubtedly all Jews, would have known Him to be a sinner because of this verse, and many others: 

Habakkuk 2:15 Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also,....... 
Now my liberal (apostate) friends are quick to assert that Jesus drank alcoholic wine, as a tea totaler of course, but are often shocked by the implication this has in John 2. Some have suggested that Jesus didn't drink any, and that the guests did not have to drink all that he made. These are interesting thoughts, but I think it is clear from context that the guests had drank their fill and were now given a great deal more to drink. I think it is also abundantly clear from context this was not alcoholic wine. 

Biblical Word Wine and Its Usage 
The word "wine" is mentioned 231 times in the King James Bible. In the Old Testament there are 3 Hebrew words that are all translated as “wine”. 

•YAYIN: Intoxicating, fermented wine (Genesis 9:21).
•TIROSH: Fresh grape juice (Proverbs 3:10).
•SHAKAR: Intoxicating, intensely alcoholic, strong drink (often referred to other intoxicants than wine) (Numbers 28:7).
The New Testament, translated from Greek, uses the word “wine” for both fermented and unfermented drink. There are 2 Greek words for wine the New Testament. 

•OINOS: Wine (generic) - Matthew 9:17 -- unfermented, Ephesians 5:18 -- fermented.
•GLEUKOS: Sweet wine, fresh juice (Acts 2:13).
The context reveals the type of wine as in Proverbs 20:1, ”Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise”. If grape juice is substituted for the word wine, the verse doesn't make sense. 

The Bible is full of prohibitions about using alcoholic wine. It was forbidden for priests and for those who took the Nazarite vow. It was forbidden for kings and princes (Proverbs 31:4-6) and pronounced woe upon anyone who provided his neighbor alcoholic wine and made him drunk (Habakkuk 2:15). It would be inconsistent for the Bible to speak against alcoholic wine and then have Jesus ignore it. 

Relevant Questions to the Discussion 
Didn't they use fermentation to preserve wine? How much alcohol content does naturally fermented wine have? Did they ever water it down? Is granulated sugar important to fermentation and alcoholic content? Was fermentation the only way to preserve grape juice? 

Fermentation, Preservation and Alcoholic Content 
One must have a clear understanding of fermentation to see the unlikelihood of the above contention. First, naturally (no additives) fermented wine has a low alcoholic content. Until the advent of widely available granulated sugar, strongly alcoholic wine was rare. To make wine strongly alcoholic like what we have today (10%-15%) you must add a lot of sugar and yeast. These are the two key components to fermentation, and they are not present in large enough quantities naturally to create the strong wine we have today. Alcoholic wine during biblical times, which was much weaker than the wine of today, was often watered down for drinking. They basically only had water and wine. Like Pepsi or Coke today, wine was consumed by adults and children alike as a tasty substitute for water. Watering down wine was something they did and they drank it this way regularly. Also, boiling it down to a syrup was frequently done for preservation. This boiling killed the yeast that would cause fermentation. The syrup could easily be reconstituted later for drinking purposes. A third form of preservation was by straining out the yeast to prevent fermentation.


----------



## 7mm REM MAG

The Bible also says this:

Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine... I TIM 5:23


----------



## Jeff Phillips

vanguard1 said:


> ok since you asked for it here it is, what the bible says:...



But it also says:

Judges 9:13: And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees?

Psalm 104:15: And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.

Zechariah 10:7: And they of Ephraim shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as through wine: yea, their children shall see it, and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in the LORD.

Proverbs 31:6: Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

1 Timothy 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Genesis 14:18-19 Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and WINE;  he was the priest of God Most High.  And he blessed him and said: "Blessed be Abram of God Most High, possessor of heaven and earth;" 

Isaiah 55:1 "'Ho! Everyone who thirsts, come to the waters;  And you who have no money, come, buy and eat.  Yes, come, buy WINE and milk without money and without price.' " 

Isaiah 25:6 "And in this mountain the Lord of hosts will make for all people a feast of choice pieces, a feast of WINES on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of well-refined WINES on the lees." 

Abstinence is NOT taught by the Bible, but neither is drunkenness. Moderation is the key. If you are incapable of moderation by all means abstain. But do not attack those who are capable.

http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/does-bible-permit-drinking-wine-alcohol.html


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## NCHillbilly

I'm sure God doesn't have anything better to do than worry about whether that's a Bud or an RC in my hand. I think common sense would tell you that drinking a few beers  (or glasses of wine, or shots of bourbon) does nobody any harm, but habitual drunkenness is not a good thing.


----------



## Ronnie T

1gr8bldr said:


> Nor do I, but it may give hint, but not conclusive, as to whether alcohol was present at these church suppers.



I agree, alcohol was there and it was being drank.
I don't believe it was unfermented either.


----------



## Lowjack

vanguard1 said:


> ok since you asked for it here it is, what the bible says:
> 
> Leviticus 10:9 (King James Version)
> 
> 9Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
> 
> 
> Numbers 6:3 (King James Version)
> 
> 3He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried
> 
> Judges 13:7 (King James Version)
> 
> 7But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, neither eat any unclean thing: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death.
> 
> 
> 
> Proverbs 20
> 1Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
> 
> 
> Proverbs 23:29-35 (King James Version)
> 
> 29Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
> 
> 30They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
> 
> 31Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
> 
> 32At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
> 
> 33Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.
> 
> 34Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.
> 
> 35They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.
> 
> 
> I never seen so many people callin on the name of the Lord to defend drinking, shows how strong a grip it has on people.



Since when are you Jewish that you go to the tabernacle of God? and what about the other 612 commandments Given to Israel ?


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## Ronnie T

vanguard1 said:


> well I can speak from fact, I wish I had never took one sip of the junk, I played around with it and it a few years I was trapped in its hold, can you play with fire and not get burned? can you play with snakes and not get bit? some think they can. all I can do is warn you LEAVE IT ALONE, I have never heard one person say "hey my life is so much better because I started drinking" why do you think your head hurts after drinking? or some get sick? HELLO your body is rejecting the poison. some people like I was thought they are special I can handle this, others are just week minded, what a fool I was.



Me too.
It's the one thing that many new Christians will never give up.  And it will affect many of their lives in a negative way.


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## Ronnie T

Jeff Phillips said:


> Jesus loved a good party
> 
> He performed his first miracle at one
> 
> To answer the original question: Drinking in moderation is not a sin according to God's Word.
> 
> If you personally are under conviction to avoid alcohol, please avoid it, but do not condemn others who are not under your conviction by adding to the Word!



I agree with you.
I should not condemn anyone for drinking.
But I should condemn a drunkard.


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## Lowjack

Some Christians sure like to pull out the Law to argue points in our lives, but at the same time they tell you ,I'm saved by grace through faith , I'm not under the Law".
They judge you by the law but yet live outside the Law and commit ever greater sins than this.
I don't defend drunkness, I personally never even have tasted 1 beer or Strong Alcohol, but don't argue with me about the Wine as a sacrament and that Jesus did not drink Wine to prove your point.
Quit Putting a Yoke on believers that Christ Paid with his blood to remove.


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## Ronnie T

With all this drinking going on, must be a lot of Methodists and Catholics here. haha.


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## hayseed_theology

vanguard1 said:


> I never seen so many people callin on the name of the Lord to defend drinking, shows how strong a grip it has on people.



Just attempting to be faithful to the word of God.  I'm just trying to be careful to speak definitively where Scripture does, and use great caution about speaking definitively where Scripture does not.


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## Jeff Raines

vanguard1 said:


> The Bible is full of prohibitions about using alcoholic wine. It was forbidden for priests and for those who took the Nazarite vow. It was forbidden for kings and princes (Proverbs 31:4-6) and pronounced woe upon anyone who provided his neighbor alcoholic wine and made him drunk (Habakkuk 2:15). It would be inconsistent for the Bible to speak against alcoholic wine and then have Jesus ignore it.



If that's the case,then Jesus couldn't even drink grape juice.


1 Again the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 

2 "Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, 'When a man or woman makes a special vow, the vow of a Nazirite, to dedicate himself to the LORD, 

3 he shall abstain from wine and strong drink; he shall drink no vinegar, whether made from wine or strong drink, nor shall he drink any grape juice nor eat fresh or dried grapes. 

4 'All the days of his separation he shall not eat anything that is produced by the grape vine, from the seeds even to the skin.


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## Gabassmaster

What about cocaine? or METH?


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## hayseed_theology

Ronnie T said:


> With all this drinking going on, must be a lot of Methodists and Catholics here. haha.



 Now it's gettin' ugly!  Callin' folks Methodist, that's hittn' below the belt. Haha.


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## Jody Hawk

No, I don't think you are sinning if you sit down for dinner and have a mug of beer or a glass of wine with it. Nor do I think the Bible supports that you are sinning if you do such.


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## hayseed_theology

Gabassmaster said:


> What about cocaine? or METH?



Yeah, I think you should give those up.


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## Gabassmaster

hayseed_theology said:


> Yeah, I think you should give those up.



tryin


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## hayseed_theology

Gabassmaster said:


> tryin



You might wanna give up that fishin' too.  It looks like you aren't leaving any big bass for the rest of us.


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## stringmusic

[quote]To answer the original question: Drinking in moderation is not a sin according to God's Word. 

If you personally are under conviction to avoid alcohol, please avoid it, but do not condemn others who are not under your conviction by adding to the Word![/QUOTE]

This should be the end of the discussion... It wont be.


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## Gabassmaster

hayseed_theology said:


> You might wanna give up that fishin' too.  It looks like you aren't leaving any big bass for the rest of us.



I Dont know about that. I am ADDICTED! Aint no way i can just go cold turkey on some bass.


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## Mako22

New study from on CNN today about the evils of booze.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/01/alcohol.harm/index.html?hpt=C2

London, England (CNN) -- Alcohol ranks "most harmful" among a list of 20 drugs, beating out crack and heroin when assessed for its potential harm to the individual imbibing and harm to others, according to study results released by a British medical journal.

A panel of experts from the Independent Scientific Committee on Drugs weighed the physical, psychological, and social problems caused by the drugs and determined that alcohol was the most harmful overall, according to an article on the study released by The Lancet on Sunday.

Using a new scale to evaluate harms to individual users and others, alcohol received a score of 72 on a scale of 1 to 100, the study says. It was compared to 19 other drugs using 16 criteria: nine related to the adverse effects the drug has on an individual and seven on its harm against others.

That makes it almost three times as harmful as cocaine or tobacco, according to the article, which is slated to be published on The Lancet's website Monday and in an upcoming print edition of the journal.

Heroin, crack cocaine and methamphetamine were the most harmful drugs to individuals, the study says, while alcohol, heroin and crack cocaine were the most harmful to others.

In the article, the panelists said their findings show that Britain's three-tiered drug classification system, which places drugs into different categories that determine criminal penalties for possession and dealing, has "little relation to the evidence of harm."

Panelists also noted that the rankings confirm other studies that say that "aggressively targeting alcohol harms is a valid and necessary public health strategy."

The Lancet article was co-authored by David Nutt, a professor and Britain's former chief drug adviser, who caused controversy last year after he published an article saying ecstasy was not as dangerous as riding a horse.

"So why are harmful sporting activities allowed, whereas relatively less harmful drugs are not?" Nutt wrote in the Journal of Psychopharmacology. "I believe this reflects a societal approach which does not adequately balance the relative risks of drugs against their harms."

Nutt later apologized to to anyone offended by the article and to those who have lost loved ones to ecstasy. He said he had no intention of trivializing the dangers of the drug and that he only wanted to compare the risks.

In the article released by The Lancet on Sunday, ecstasy's harmfulness ranking -- 9 -- indicates it is only one-eighth as harmful as alcohol.

The study was funded by the London-based Centre for Crime and Justice studies.


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## rjcruiser

hayseed_theology said:


> Just attempting to be faithful to the word of God.  I'm just trying to be careful to speak definitively where Scripture does, and use great caution about speaking definitively where Scripture does not.



Bingo.  Amazing how the legalist will stretch the scripture to allow them to condemn others and take pride in their own actions.



Gabassmaster said:


> What about cocaine? or METH?



If those were non-addictive and you could remain sober-minded while doing them...I'd say it wouldn't be a sin.

But...I don't think you can be under their influence and not be addicted/sober-minded.

That is what the scripture says.  Be in control at all times.  Be under the influence of nothing but the Holy Spirit.



Tell me this, can you give up fishing for 30 days?  Really...it is a sin to fish.  Jesus told his disciples to stop fishing for fish and be only fishers' of men.


----------



## vanguard1

7mm REM MAG said:


> The Bible also says this:
> 
> Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine... I TIM 5:23



are you timothy?


----------



## vanguard1

I.m not saying that if you drink a beer or two it is a sin or send you to he11, just like smoking won,t send you to he11, JUST MAKES YOU SMELL LIKE YOU HAVE ALLREADY BEEN THERE.


----------



## rjcruiser

vanguard1 said:


> I.m not saying that if you drink a beer or two it is a sin or send you to he11, just like smoking won,t send you to he11, JUST MAKES YOU SMELL LIKE YOU HAVE ALLREADY BEEN THERE.



So...let me understand this.

As long as I only drink a beer or two, I'm not sinning.  But if I drink more than a beer or two, I am?


----------



## Gabassmaster

rjcruiser said:


> Bingo.  Amazing how the legalist will stretch the scripture to allow them to condemn others and take pride in their own actions.
> 
> 
> 
> If those were non-addictive and you could remain sober-minded while doing them...I'd say it wouldn't be a sin.
> 
> But...I don't think you can be under their influence and not be addicted/sober-minded.
> 
> That is what the scripture says.  Be in control at all times.  Be under the influence of nothing but the Holy Spirit.
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me this, can you give up fishing for 30 days?  Really...it is a sin to fish.  Jesus told his disciples to stop fishing for fish and be only fishers' of men.



it is not a sin to fish? it is a sin to put anything before god. How do you know i would do that?


----------



## rjcruiser

Gabassmaster said:


> it is not a sin to fish? it is a sin to put anything before god. How do you know i would do that?



Yes...it is a sin to fish.

Look at when the first disciples were called in Matthew 4.  They left their nets and their boats to follow Christ.


----------



## Gabassmaster

rjcruiser said:


> Yes...it is a sin to fish.
> 
> Look at when the first disciples were called in Matthew 4.  They left their nets and their boats to follow Christ.



so its not a sin to drink beer but if you go fishen your sinnin?


----------



## rjcruiser

Gabassmaster said:


> so its not a sin to drink beer but if you go fishen your sinnin?



I'm pulling scripture out of context to prove a point.  Amazing...how when it is alcohol, playing cards, dancing....it is okay to stretch scripture beyond what is there.

But when it comes to fishing....eating Sunday dinner at the Golden Corral, pulling scripture out of context isn't right.

Again...no where in scripture does it say not to drink.  It says two things on the subject.  Don't be drunk...don't cause a brother to stumble.

I can see where drinking beer would be a sin.  I can also see where drinking beer is not a sin.  

Same with anything.  I can see where going fishin is a sin.  I can see where it isn't.

I can see where sex is a sin.  I can see where it isn't.

I can see where watching tv is a sin.  I can see where it isn't.


----------



## vanguard1

rjcruiser said:


> I'm pulling scripture out of context to prove a point.  Amazing...how when it is alcohol, playing cards, dancing....it is okay to stretch scripture beyond what is there.
> 
> But when it comes to fishing....eating Sunday dinner at the Golden Corral, pulling scripture out of context isn't right.
> 
> Again...no where in scripture does it say not to drink.  It says two things on the subject.  Don't be drunk...don't cause a brother to stumble.
> 
> I can see where drinking beer would be a sin.  I can also see where drinking beer is not a sin.
> 
> Same with anything.  I can see where going fishin is a sin.  I can see where it isn't.
> 
> I can see where sex is a sin.  I can see where it isn't.
> 
> I can see where watching tv is a sin.  I can see where it isn't.



you need to lay off  GOLDEN CORRAL


----------



## Gabassmaster

rjcruiser said:


> I'm pulling scripture out of context to prove a point.  Amazing...how when it is alcohol, playing cards, dancing....it is okay to stretch scripture beyond what is there.
> 
> But when it comes to fishing....eating Sunday dinner at the Golden Corral, pulling scripture out of context isn't right.
> 
> Again...no where in scripture does it say not to drink.  It says two things on the subject.  Don't be drunk...don't cause a brother to stumble.
> 
> I can see where drinking beer would be a sin.  I can also see where drinking beer is not a sin.
> 
> Same with anything.  I can see where going fishin is a sin.  I can see where it isn't.
> 
> I can see where sex is a sin.  I can see where it isn't.
> 
> I can see where watching tv is a sin.  I can see where it isn't.




thats true but i know for a fact it says in the bible if you put ANYTHING before god it is a sin, that could be tv, games, fishen, hunting, etc. but i think as long as you do what you can for the lord and put fishing second, it is ok.


----------



## NCHillbilly

It always amazed me that so many hard-core Baptist members of my family were constantly talking about how you had to believe and abide by and accept every single word of the Bible just like it was written. But they would go all out of their way to try to discount Jesus drinking wine because they didn't personally believe in drinking.


----------



## Randy

gtparts said:


> Perhaps we would do well to let the one without sin cast the first stone.
> 
> 
> What????
> 
> Did I hear stones hitting the ground????
> 
> 
> Thought so.
> 
> I'll leave this to those trying to justify the use of beverage alcohol on one side and those who are steeped in legalism on the other side to answer the question. God will surely find time to sort this out between you folks.


The best post of the thread and the most christian.  If I could find a church full of people like you I would attend.  (pun intended)


----------



## rjcruiser

vanguard1 said:


> you need to lay off  GOLDEN CORRAL



Those rolls are from the debil



Gabassmaster said:


> thats true but i know for a fact it says in the bible if you put ANYTHING before god it is a sin, that could be tv, games, fishen, hunting, etc. but i think as long as you do what you can for the lord and put fishing second, it is ok.



actually....nothing should be second.

Rather...we should glorify God in all that we do.  So...glorify God through your fishing...and you'll be fine.

Glorify God through your eating/drinking...you'll be fine.

Glorify God through your relationships...you'll be fine.



Amazing...how when you try and come up with a list of do's and don'ts, it becomes a matter of glorifying oneself rather than glorifying God.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

Woodsman69 said:


> According to scripture it is impossible for Jesus to have ever drank alchohol to do so would have been a sin and the word tells us that he was without sin. The wine Jesus provided at the marriage feast was indeed grape juice and not alchohol. Christians who drink booze are either backslid or not real born again believers.


 
According to scripture??? Please point that one out to me would you? Also, do you have any idea how quickly wine ferments when not refrigerated. It's not like they grew grapes year round in Israel.

I'm all ears,,,,,,errr,,,,,,,,eyes.


----------



## Gabassmaster

vanguard1 said:


> you need to lay off  GOLDEN CORRAL



in carroll county we call the golden corral(or ryans) the slop house.


----------



## Gabassmaster

Miguel Cervantes said:


> According to scripture??? Please point that one out to me would you? Also, do you have any idea how quickly wine ferments when not refrigerated. It's not like they grew grapes year round in Israel.
> 
> I'm all ears,,,,,,errr,,,,,,,,eyes.



it dont happen in seconds or days


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

Gabassmaster said:


> it dont happen in seconds or days


 
So there was a black market wine distillery in Isreal back in Biblical times, and only the rich had the nice, solar powered Fridgidare refridgerator's to keep their Welch's from turning into wine for months on end between growing seasons..



http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Wine-of-Israel-and-Wine-in-Biblical-Times&id=340401

Jesus and Wine

The history of Israeli wine is unique in that it also involves the history of Christ. Whether or not Jesus advocated drinking wine, and whether or not the wine he drank was alcoholic, has become a cornerstone in many historical and religious debates. While some people insist that Jesus drank wine, others insist that he didn't, and, of course, a few Bill Clinton fans insist that he drank, but didn't inhale.

There are hardly any people arguing on the premise that Jesus consumed large amounts of wine. Instead, people argue whether or not the Bible condemns all use of alcohol or whether it condones its use in moderation. Depending on which side a person prefers to linger, innumerous references from the Bible can go in both directions. Some people assert that the "wine" referenced in the Bible was nothing more than nonalcoholic grape juice. But, those who take an opposing stance state that there are too many Biblical references warning against excessive use of "wine." If it was just grape juice, or a wine with virtually no alcohol content, there would be no need for precautions.

Though there are several examples of passages in the Bible that involve Jesus drinking wine, with the most famous one likely being The Last Supper, the Bible also includes innumerable references to wine in general, wine drinking that does not necessarily involve Christ.

There are approximately 256 references to wine written in the contents of the Good Book. From these references, readers learn that wine was made from grapes, figs, dates and pomegranates. It was often consumed as part of the every day diet, during times of celebrations, during weddings, as gifts and offerings, and as a symbol of blessing. In some passages, it was even used for medicinal purposes.

Wine Strength During this Era

Another question that often arises in regards to wine in the Bible and Christ's consumption is its alcoholic strength. If the wine was in fact wine and not grape juice, then it obviously had some sort of alcohol content. However, the wine of the Biblical era was much weaker than the wine we know today. While one reason for this was the addition of water, another reason was naturally fermented wine (wine that does not have additives) was the only wine available during this time. Because sugar and yeast were not yet added to wine, its alcohol content remained lower than modern day spirits.

Whether or not Jesus drank wine, and whether or not it was condoned or condemned, is based on a great deal of speculation. Like many items of debate, people often use passages in the Bible to move an argument in their direction, even when their chosen reference is laden with ambiguity. Some people may swear that he drank, while others may insist that he didn't. However, in truth, we will probably never know and, along these lines, we really shouldn't need to: *when it comes down to it, a person's faith is based on much bigger things than their opinion of alcohol*.


----------



## vanguard1

all i will say is drink away, have fun do what you want, i did for 23 years and got nothing good from it, so what ever time i have left will be sober and drawing closer to God.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

vanguard1 said:


> all i will say is drink away, have fun do what you want, i did for 23 years and got nothing good from it, so what ever time i have left will be sober and drawing closer to God.


 
So, by your measure it is impossible to have a glass of red wine with dinner and remain sober?

Some of the finest Christians I know have had heart issues. A glass of red wine every now and then would have helped them.

In my life long experience, it is those with addictive personalities that have the problem with alchohol. They also seem to be the most annoying Christians, for their addictive personality doesn't allow them to create a reasonable balance in their life.


----------



## chiefsquirrel83

Ronnie T said:


> With all this drinking going on, must be a lot of Methodists and Catholics here. haha.



I am a Methodist...what does that have to do with anything....and the comment on calling people Methodist is hitting below the belt??? I grew up Methodist and attend a Methodist church. Best fellowship I have ever been a part of. I guess most people do not accept Methodist because we don't judge other's. I drink beer, whiskey, vodka, homebrew, etc. I know when enough is enough. I know I am a sinner and I know when to ask for forgiveness.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

chiefsquirrel83 said:


> I am a Methodist...what does that have to do with anything....and the comment on calling people Methodist is hitting below the belt??? I grew up Methodist and attend a Methodist church. Best fellowship I have ever been a part of. I guess most people do not accept Methodist because we don't judge other's. I drink beer, whiskey, vodka, homebrew, etc. I know when enough is enough. I know I am a sinner and I know when to ask for forgiveness.


 
He left out Presb, Cath, and Epsicopalians. (sp?) I grew up Methodist as well, although some of the more liberal attitudes within the Conference chased me away about 8 years ago.

However, I would rather see a person enjoying a glass of wine or two with a properly portioned meal than watch the 300 lb. self professed Christian glutton his or herself with enough food to feed 6 people while drinking a diet coke and believing themselves righteous in their habits.

Trust me, one will kill you long before the other will.


----------



## Ronnie T

chiefsquirrel83 said:


> I am a Methodist...what does that have to do with anything....and the comment on calling people Methodist is hitting below the belt??? I grew up Methodist and attend a Methodist church. Best fellowship I have ever been a part of. I guess most people do not accept Methodist because we don't judge other's. I drink beer, whiskey, vodka, homebrew, etc. I know when enough is enough. I know I am a sinner and I know when to ask for forgiveness.



I meant no disrespect.
In my part of the world the only Christians who publicly admit to drinking are people of the Methodists and Catholic faiths.
Around here, a good baptist would never admit to drinking anything except an ounce of wine, or grape juice during communion.

Please excuse this old wondering mind and mouth of mine.


----------



## Lowjack

Miguel Cervantes said:


> According to scripture??? Please point that one out to me would you? Also, do you have any idea how quickly wine ferments when not refrigerated. It's not like they grew grapes year round in Israel.
> 
> I'm all ears,,,,,,errr,,,,,,,,eyes.



Yep Me too, lOL


----------



## vanguard1

Miguel Cervantes said:


> So, by your measure it is impossible to have a glass of red wine with dinner and remain sober?
> 
> Some of the finest Christians I know have had heart issues. A glass of red wine every now and then would have helped them.
> 
> In my life long experience, it is those with addictive personalities that have the problem with alchohol. They also seem to be the most annoying Christians, for their addictive personality doesn't allow them to create a reasonable balance in their life.



yep keep playing with it, keep looking to fill the hole in your heart with a can or bottle.


----------



## chiefsquirrel83

I always say hello to friends and strangers in the beer store  Never hide that I am a sinner.  And will never deny my faith in Jesus and that I am a Methodist. Actually only a Baptist has told me that I condemned to Satan for my actions. But all other's have told me to accept Jesus as my Savior and ask for forgiveness which I have done. I cannot stand people who use the Bible as a weapon and not as a tool.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

vanguard1 said:


> yep keep playing with it, keep looking to fill the hole in your heart with a can or bottle.


 
That is laughable at best...


----------



## vanguard1

im not a sinner anymore, im a saint that may sin once in awhile, a sinner loves to sin.I hate it.

Luke 5:32 (King James Version)

 32I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


Matthew 9:13 (King James Version)

 13But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


Mark 2:15 (King James Version)

 15And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him


----------



## chiefsquirrel83

so vanguard1....question for you.....do you sin??? or are you 100% perfect in all ways???


----------



## vanguard1

I John 3:2-8 "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as he is. And every man that has this hope in Him purifies himself, even as He is pure. Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abides in Him sins not: whosoever sins has not seen him, neither known Him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that practiceSrighteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous. He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil."


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Never take just one  baptist fishing unless you bring two, cause if you only bring one, he will drink all your beer.


----------



## vanguard1

i may sin sometimes but it is not my nature anymore, i do electrical work some times but im not an electrican, i do plumbing some times but im not a plumber, i may sin some times but im not a sinner.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Baptist never speak at the liquor store


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

vanguard1 said:


> I John 3:2-8 "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as he is. And every man that has this hope in Him purifies himself, even as He is pure. Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abides in Him sins not: whosoever sins has not seen him, neither known Him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that practiceSrighteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous. He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil."


 
Yet you place your allegience with the NRA. What's the matter? Faith wavering a bit?

You can quote scripture all day long, but I dare you to quote one that says drinking wine is a sin.


----------



## vanguard1

and when i sin it is because I WANTED TOO , i dont live my life half way in and half way out and say "well im just a sinner i can,t help myself".


----------



## vanguard1

having ears to hear you do not hear, having eyes to see you do not see.


----------



## chiefsquirrel83

You do not sin but it is not your nature??? Human beings sin....it is their nature. God realized that we are sinners. He sent us Jesus Christ who died for our sins. Everyone sins and those that say they don't are hypocrites.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

I personally used to have some of the attitudes seen here, but over time as I studied, I realized I was wrong. I don't drink but defend the freedom of those who do. Truth is, and I don't expect you to agree, but understanding that it is not a sin, helps to set someone free from it's hold.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

1gr8bldr said:


> I personally used to have some of the attitudes seen here, but over time as I studied, I realized I was wrong. I don't drink but defend the freedom of those who do. Truth is, and I don't expect you to agree, but understanding that it is not a sin, helps to set someone free from it's hold.


 
It IS possible to have a single glass of wine once or twice a month without being in "the hold". Or does everyone believe one glass of wine makes you an alchoholic?


----------



## Oldstick

Agree with many of the above posters.  One drink or two is no more harmful medically or spiritually than taking a couple aspirin or any other medication. And maybe less harmful than pigging out at the buffet as someone else suggested.

It is probably also possible for someone to smoke a joint once in a while without physical harm.  But the most important aspect is does it harm one's relation with and obedience to God.

Also consider the possiblility of becoming an addict over time.  When you partake of any drug over a long period of time, you stand a high risk of turning into an addict.   For an alcoholic or any other addict, there is no longer such a thing as "just one or two" and that is a proven fact from thousands of years of human history.


----------



## chiefsquirrel83

hmmmmm.....well I drink on the weekends....gotta love a cold beer after cuttin' the yard during the summer....or drinkin' a Jack and Coke next to a bon fire at hunt camp for a warm up....but to some on here well tell me that is a one way ticket to the fire...


----------



## apoint

Lets consider a true FASTING, where you dont eat and may only drink water. You fast and pray and read the bible. This is how Jesus said in Matthew17:21  this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.
 my point is, To get closer to the Lord and not pushing the limits of whats unrighteous or sin. What keeps me away from sin is trying to be closer to the Lord. Iv never heard of someone drinking a beer to get closer to the Lord. Its about saying no to the flesh and yes to God. Just trying to share another point of view. And yes about once or twice a year Ill have a beer or a glass of wine. I also have wine at communion sadder. Ill go back into my cave now.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Miguel Cervantes said:


> It IS possible to have a single glass of wine once or twice a month without being in "the hold". Or does everyone believe one glass of wine makes you an alchoholic?


I'm on your side. The "hold" I refer to is an addict. Truth is, that lately, I'd prefer to hang around with some good ole beer drinkers than the "puffed up religious"


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

I guess by the mandates layed down by a few here, not the Bible, all of the Nuns and Monks in monestaries are in a lot of trouble in their divine service to God.


----------



## Sirduke

Woe unto ye scribes and Pharasees (yep I spelled it wrong most likely)

This reminds me of an argument my father and I had on a running basis. He would argue you down that the alcohol in wine was different than the alcohol in beer or whiskey. And that Jesus drank wine with the "saintly" alcohol.

ETOH is ETOH, (ethel alcohol for you people not in the medical field) whether it is in wine, whiskey, beer, cough syrup, vanilla extract or what have you.

I can remember my santimonious old aunts giggling guiltly when they baked a Lane cake that had rum in it, blithely unaware that when it was baked the alcohol evaportated out of it. Yet they thought they were being "sinful" but their pious lifestyle would absolve them of the sin.  They also loved gossiping about anyone and everyone, but it wasn't a sin, because they remembered to say "God bless they souls" after repeating the juicy stuff.

In my humble opinion, if it causes a gulf between you and the Lord, then yes, its a sin.

The Bible I read says, "In all things, moderation", which to me means that if we chose to make it a sin, then it is.  Sex for example, within the marriage is not a sin, according to what I read, but outside the marriage, something that God created can indeed be a sin. 

Gluttony is mentioned several times in the Bible as one of the worst sins, and how many times have I seen a 350 lb or bigger, "fine upstanding Christian" lady stuffing her face with chocolate cake, having just destroyed a Church covered dish dinner, expound on the sins of "drankin a beer."

As a Southern Baptist, I've heard all the "Jesus drank grape juice" arguments, one beer is a ticket to He!! arguments, ad nausem, but I was taught by the Baptist church no less, that we were all to read the Bible and interpret it for ourselves, rather than to blindly follow what a preacher or deacon told us. 

As you may recall, the Bible referrs to it as "the foolishness of preaching".  I can show you several examples of people who blindly followed a preacher to their deaths, ie David Koresh, Jim Jones, etc.

Don't drink the Kool-Aide people, examine your hearts, read the Bible, and live your life accordingly.  I cannot find in my Bible, KJV, where it tells me NOT to drink, but I can find a lot where it tells me not to Judge lest I be judged likewise, not to be a glutton, or a drunkard, not to commit adultry, etc. 

Do I drink, yes.  Am I a drunk, No. As a father of three boys, I have always strived to set an example for them. Not to indulge in anything in excess, failed with fried chicken and a few other things, I admit.  But one of the main things I've strived to set an example to them is this. Don't be a fanatic, God doesn't need fanatics.  But for some reason, it seems that religion in the south spawns them at a terrible rate.

You cannot legislate morality, you can't scare someone into heaven, but a rabid preacher, or a judgemental, hypocrit can for sure turn someone away from Christ.

And, in closing, let me say this, for all who are quoting old testament law in their argument against drinking or for drinking, did not Jesus say, " I came not to uphold the law, but to fufill the law."

When my time comes, I will have no problem standing before my God and being judged by the only one who can judge me.


----------



## apoint

Sirduke said:


> Woe unto ye scribes and Pharasees (yep I spelled it wrong most likely)
> 
> This reminds me of an argument my father and I had on a running basis. He would argue you down that the alcohol in wine was different than the alcohol in beer or whiskey. And that Jesus drank wine with the "saintly" alcohol.
> 
> ETOH is ETOH, (ethel alcohol for you people not in the medical field) whether it is in wine, whiskey, beer, cough syrup, vanilla extract or what have you.
> 
> I can remember my santimonious old aunts giggling guiltly when they baked a Lane cake that had rum in it, blithely unaware that when it was baked the alcohol evaportated out of it. Yet they thought they were being "sinful" but their pious lifestyle would absolve them of the sin.  They also loved gossiping about anyone and everyone, but it wasn't a sin, because they remembered to say "God bless they souls" after repeating the juicy stuff.
> 
> In my humble opinion, if it causes a gulf between you and the Lord, then yes, its a sin.
> 
> The Bible I read says, "In all things, moderation", which to me means that if we chose to make it a sin, then it is.  Sex for example, within the marriage is not a sin, according to what I read, but outside the marriage, something that God created can indeed be a sin.
> 
> Gluttony is mentioned several times in the Bible as one of the worst sins, and how many times have I seen a 350 lb or bigger, "fine upstanding Christian" lady stuffing her face with chocolate cake, having just destroyed a Church covered dish dinner, expound on the sins of "drankin a beer."
> 
> As a Southern Baptist, I've heard all the "Jesus drank grape juice" arguments, one beer is a ticket to He!! arguments, ad nausem, but I was taught by the Baptist church no less, that we were all to read the Bible and interpret it for ourselves, rather than to blindly follow what a preacher or deacon told us.
> 
> As you may recall, the Bible referrs to it as "the foolishness of preaching".  I can show you several examples of people who blindly followed a preacher to their deaths, ie David Koresh, Jim Jones, etc.
> 
> Don't drink the Kool-Aide people, examine your hearts, read the Bible, and live your life accordingly.  I cannot find in my Bible, KJV, where it tells me NOT to drink, but I can find a lot where it tells me not to Judge lest I be judged likewise, not to be a glutton, or a drunkard, not to commit adultry, etc.
> 
> Do I drink, yes.  Am I a drunk, No. As a father of three boys, I have always strived to set an example for them. Not to indulge in anything in excess, failed with fried chicken and a few other things, I admit.  But one of the main things I've strived to set an example to them is this. Don't be a fanatic, God doesn't need fanatics.  But for some reason, it seems that religion in the south spawns them at a terrible rate.
> 
> You cannot legislate morality, you can't scare someone into heaven, but a rabid preacher, or a judgemental, hypocrit can for sure turn someone away from Christ.
> 
> And, in closing, let me say this, for all who are quoting old testament law in their argument against drinking or for drinking, did not Jesus say, " I came not to uphold the law, but to fufill the law."When my time comes, I will have no problem standing before my God and being judged by the only one who can judge me.



 NO. I came not to destroy the law but to fulfill it.


----------



## Sirduke

apoint said:


> NO. I came not to destroy the law but to fulfill it.



On that point, I stand corrected.


----------



## Oldstick

Sirduke said:


> Woe unto ye scribes and Pharasees (yep I spelled it wrong most likely)
> 
> 
> .



Agree, with all of Sirduke's post.  That is basically what I was taught and experienced growing up, although I freely admit I have badly deviated from the fine example set by my parents very often over the years.


----------



## hayseed_theology

chiefsquirrel83 said:


> I am a Methodist...what does that have to do with anything....and the comment on calling people Methodist is hitting below the belt??? I grew up Methodist and attend a Methodist church. Best fellowship I have ever been a part of. I guess most people do not accept Methodist because we don't judge other's. I drink beer, whiskey, vodka, homebrew, etc. I know when enough is enough. I know I am a sinner and I know when to ask for forgiveness.



I apologize if I offended you with that comment.  I knew Ronnie was being funny and didn't mean anything malicious; I was playing along in the same spirit.  We were just joking around.


----------



## apoint

apoint said:


> Lets consider a true FASTING, where you dont eat and may only drink water. You fast and pray and read the bible. This is how Jesus said in Matthew17:21  this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.
> my point is, To get closer to the Lord and not pushing the limits of whats unrighteous or sin. What keeps me away from sin is trying to be closer to the Lord. Iv never heard of someone drinking a beer to get closer to the Lord. Its about saying no to the flesh and yes to God. Just trying to share another point of view. And yes about once or twice a year Ill have a beer or a glass of wine. I also have wine at communion sadder. Ill go back into my cave now.



Are you seeking a drink more than being close to the Lord? Lets be honest, most arnt drinking just one beer but are seeking a buzz.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

apoint said:


> Are you seeking drink more than closeness to the Lord?


 
Good grief folks. Do you seek a diet coke more than the Lord when you have dinner? Wine / Beer whatever is no different.

Are you seeking the Lord when you crave that pack of M&M's?

See how rediculous this sounds?

If someone has an addictive personality then so be it, and them abstaining from alchohol is understandable. But outside of that, a drink is a drink, whether it be water, coke, wine, beer, coffee etc. etc. etc. 

I actually know folks that are afflicted by addiction, they replaced alchohol with religion and are just as socially inept. What purpose does that serve for the Lord?


----------



## apoint

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Good grief folks. Do you seek a diet coke more than the Lord when you have dinner? Wine / Beer whatever is no different.
> 
> Are you seeking the Lord when you crave that pack of M&M's?
> 
> See how rediculous this sounds?
> 
> If someone has an addictive personality then so be it, and them abstaining from alchohol is understandable. But outside of that, a drink is a drink, whether it be water, coke, wine, beer, coffee etc. etc. etc.
> 
> I actually know folks that are afflicted by addiction, they replaced alchohol with religion and are just as socially inept. What purpose does that serve for the Lord?




I only drink one coke, so how many beers do we drink at a time is the question. Lets be honest most dont drink just one or just 2  but seek the buzz..


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

apoint said:


> I only drink one coke, so how many beers do we drink at a time is the question.


 
Ever meet someone that drinks Mt. Dew like it's goin out of style? You think they ever wonder why they have acid reflux and care that their esophagus is being eaten up by the stomach acid?

Can you drink Mt. Dews and stay close in your walk with the Lord?

Y'all have fun with this. It's sort of like watchin a one armed blind man try to explain to someone how to do a Rubik's Cube..


----------



## apoint

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Ever meet someone that drinks Mt. Dew like it's goin out of style? You think they ever wonder why they have acid reflux and care that their esophagus is being eaten up by the stomach acid?
> 
> Can you drink Mt. Dews and stay close in your walk with the Lord?
> 
> Y'all have fun with this. It's sort of like watchin a one armed blind man try to explain to someone how to do a Rubik's Cube..



A man Cant work a rubics cube cause of the beer glued to one hand Of coarse I cant work one with both hands. I think I need a beer after all this


----------



## dawg2

holy cow...


----------



## hummerpoo

123 posts on one thread in 24 hours

Does anyone else wish that was a suprise.


----------



## christianhunter

Man I disappear for two days,and look what happened.

My motto for myself,and no one else, IS,"if you have to ask,don't do it."

I drank heavily from the age of 18 until I was 30.I know from personal experience that every drunk in the world can probably quote I Timothy.

As for myself,it would be a sin,as for others,that is between you and THE LORD.I have saw a new level of using HOLY SCRIPTURE,on this Thread,to define ones personal feelings.WOW!


----------



## ronpasley

Turned on the TV
More crime in the streets
More trouble in the middle east
And fires out west

Politicians flingin dirt
Got decension in the church
Another law suit in the works
Man you talk about a mess

Too much tension between miss liberty and The eiffel tower
It's about time we all made up at some big Happy hour

I think the world needs a drink
I think enoughs enough
She's been spinnin around so long i'd say She's pretty wound up
Calm down, Sit back, Relax
Tear up the contracts and save the ink
Yeah I think the world needs a drink

I bet we'd get somethin done
Over 2 for ones
Rubbin elbows with the big guns
Wouldn't that be cool

Call all the rich and the poor
The peace keepers and the warlords
We'll cut some deals over nothing more
Than a shot of 90 proof

There ain't nothin wrong a few cold beers Can't iron out
In fact you tell me just when and where and I'll buy the first round

I think the world needs a drink
I think enoughs enough
She's been spinnin around so long i'd say She's pretty wound up
Let's all calm down sit back relax
Tear up the contracts and save the ink
Yeah i think the world needs a drink

Hey let's all calm down, sit back, relax
Tear up the contracts and save the ink
Yeah i think the world needs a drink
Dont you think the world needs a couple Drinks

I know I do
Yeah that's Right


----------



## christianhunter

1gr8bldr said:


> Baptist never speak at the liquor store



I've got to ask,why is it always a Baptist?
That is profiling!


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

ronpasley said:


> Turned on the TV
> More crime in the streets
> More trouble in the middle east
> And fires out west
> 
> Politicians flingin dirt
> Got decension in the church
> Another law suit in the works
> Man you talk about a mess
> 
> Too much tension between miss liberty and The eiffel tower
> It's about time we all made up at some big Happy hour
> 
> I think the world needs a drink
> I think enoughs enough
> She's been spinnin around so long i'd say She's pretty wound up
> Calm down, Sit back, Relax
> Tear up the contracts and save the ink
> Yeah I think the world needs a drink
> 
> I bet we'd get somethin done
> Over 2 for ones
> Rubbin elbows with the big guns
> Wouldn't that be cool
> 
> Call all the rich and the poor
> The peace keepers and the warlords
> We'll cut some deals over nothing more
> Than a shot of 90 proof
> 
> There ain't nothin wrong a few cold beers Can't iron out
> In fact you tell me just when and where and I'll buy the first round
> 
> I think the world needs a drink
> I think enoughs enough
> She's been spinnin around so long i'd say She's pretty wound up
> Let's all calm down sit back relax
> Tear up the contracts and save the ink
> Yeah i think the world needs a drink
> 
> Hey let's all calm down, sit back, relax
> Tear up the contracts and save the ink
> Yeah i think the world needs a drink
> Dont you think the world needs a couple Drinks
> 
> I know I do
> Yeah that's Right


 
I like Terri Clarks version better than Eric Church's...


----------



## whome

Obviously we all know the effect that alcohol can have, but just because "You" have a problem with it, doesn't mean I have a problem with it. If I decide to have a fat filet and a couple of glasses of red wine to wash it down, don't look down your nose at me.


----------



## ronpasley

Alcohol, consumed in small quantities, is neither harmful nor addictive. In fact, some doctors advocate drinking small amounts of red wine for its health benefits, especially for the heart. Consumption of small quantities of alcohol is a matter of Christian freedom. Drunkenness and addiction are sin. However, due to the biblical concerns regarding alcohol and its effects, due to the easy temptation to consume alcohol in excess, and due to the possibility of causing offense and/or stumbling of others, it is usually best for a Christian to abstain entirely from drinking alcohol.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

ronpasley said:


> Alcohol, consumed in small quantities, is neither harmful nor addictive. In fact, some doctors advocate drinking small amounts of red wine for its health benefits, especially for the heart. Consumption of small quantities of alcohol is a matter of Christian freedom. Drunkenness and addiction are sin. However, due to the biblical concerns regarding alcohol and its effects, due to the easy temptation to consume alcohol in excess, and due to the possibility of causing offense and/or stumbling of others, it is usually best for a Christian to abstain entirely from drinking alcohol.


 

Because most Christians have no self control?? 

I disagree.


----------



## decoyed

Why can't the over zealous just worry about themselves and live by their own convictions instead of acting like they are THE JUDGE...there is only one JUDGE and he has noooooo problem with me cracking open a cold one after a hard days work...and that is between me and him, not anyone else.


----------



## Jeff Raines

decoyed said:


> Why can't the over zealous just worry about themselves and live by their own convictions instead of acting like they are THE JUDGE...there is only one JUDGE and he has noooooo problem with me cracking open a cold one after a hard days work...and that is between me and him, not anyone else.



But what if you didn't work hard?....do you still get to have a cold one?


----------



## decoyed

oh........yes


----------



## Sirduke

Is it a sin to have more than one cold one in celebration of the Democrats defeat ?

I know definitely that it is a sin to vote for a Democrat...


----------



## 1gr8bldr

christianhunter said:


> I've got to ask,why is it always a Baptist?
> That is profiling!



That's how it was told to me.


----------



## Jeff Raines

Sirduke said:


> Is it a sin to have more than one cold one in celebration of the Democrats defeat ?



I think I'll raise a toast on that one tonight


----------



## vanguard1

chiefsquirrel83 said:


> You do not sin but it is not your nature??? Human beings sin....it is their nature. God realized that we are sinners. He sent us Jesus Christ who died for our sins. Everyone sins and those that say they don't are hypocrites.



can,t you read or do you just want to lie to try and prove a point you think is right? i never said i did not sin, READ WHAT PEOPLE SAY .


----------



## formula1

*Re:*

Last time I had a drink was in June of 2010. I enjoyed a celebratory beer with my 24 year old Marine son who had just returned from Afghanistan. And I don't care what you say, it was GOOD and RIGHTand WORTHY of celebration. It meant something to Him and that was good enough for me.  Praise God Almighty for his safe return.

Matthew 23:24
You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!


----------



## vanguard1

Good and right? yes your son coming home is, in my family we celebrate with a hug and being together and some sweet tea, why do we need alchool to celebrate something? anyway God bless your son, and I say thank you to him for his service.


----------



## formula1

*Re:*



vanguard1 said:


> Good and right? yes your son coming home is, in my family we celebrate with a hug and being together and some sweet tea, why do we need alchool to celebrate something? anyway God bless your son, and I say thank you to him for his service.



I did not suggest you do the same. We did lots of  hugs and sweet tea and all kinds of great food, too.  However, God is my judge and I stand humbly before Him.   It is not my righteousness I stand on anyway, but the righteousness of Christ. I suggest that any hope in anything else is worthless.

Thank you for your gratitude for my son! Please pray for all our military family and may God richly bless you as you follow Him.


----------



## christianhunter

Mark 7:15
"There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him;but the things which come out of him,those are the things that defile a man."

I don't believe I have to add anything to this,all you have to have is spiritual discernment.If a born again Believer wants a drink,that is between them and THE LORD.As it has been said,everything in excess,except worship,is a sin.You can never have too much of THE LORD,or HIS WORD.Lots of finger pointing going on,and I know the ones pointing,have their own sinful vices as well.


----------



## vanguard1

no but what you put in your mouth can kill you, that is why you don,t drink poison, or eat rotten meat. why is it that you have to be 21 to buy alcohol? but not soda. because it does something to you.


----------



## christianhunter

vanguard1 said:


> no but what you put in your mouth can kill you, that is why you don,t drink poison, or eat rotten meat. why is it that you have to be 21 to buy alcohol? but not soda. because it does something to you.



Brother,I'm not condoning or condemning.A true Believer has THE HOLY SPIRIT indwelling them.I smoke,I'm sure that is not a good witness on my part.I'm not going to He11 for it,I may go to the grave yard early because of it,unless I'm delivered from its addiction.We as children of The Living GOD,fail miserably at living by the standard that HE set forth.HE sat and ate with sinners,and rebuked the "so called" Righteous.I often wonder how often some of us act like the Scribes and Pharisees?


----------



## vanguard1

yes brother , but we should fight the things in our life that is wrong, not just accept it, if you don,t want to smoke you should fight it with all your might, until you get victory.it is not about salvation, its about us living free, Jesus suffered and died to make us free, john:10:10.


----------



## rjcruiser

vanguard1 said:


> no but what you put in your mouth can kill you, that is why you don,t drink poison, or eat rotten meat. why is it that you have to be 21 to buy alcohol? but not soda. because it does something to you.



actually, it is getting more and more like that as our govt tries to control every part of our lives.  No longer can soda be sold in schools.

In other countries, beer is sold in McDonalds.

When do you give cough medicine to your children?  It has alcohol in it.  Is that a sin?


----------



## Gabassmaster

rjcruiser said:


> actually, it is getting more and more like that as our govt tries to control every part of our lives.  No longer can soda be sold in schools.
> 
> In other countries, beer is sold in McDonalds.
> 
> When do you give cough medicine to your children?  It has alcohol in it.  Is that a sin?



i remember a few years ago trying to buy a sharpie marker for a school project and they told me i had to be 18!


----------



## Ronnie T

christianhunter said:


> Mark 7:15
> "There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him;but the things which come out of him,those are the things that defile a man."
> 
> I don't believe I have to add anything to this,all you have to have is spiritual discernment.If a born again Believer wants a drink,that is between them and THE LORD.As it has been said,everything in excess,except worship,is a sin.You can never have too much of THE LORD,or HIS WORD.Lots of finger pointing going on,and I know the ones pointing,have their own sinful vices as well.



I agree.
Drinking an alcohol beverage is not a "Thus saith the Lord" sin.  Matter of fact, scriptures often speak of drinking alcohol.
I personally believe it would be wrong for me to drink, but I have no grounds to condemn someone else for having a drink.

In this particular case, my belief belongs to me and I cannot and should not try to stuff my belief down someone elses throat.

But I do encourage all Christians not to drink at all.


----------



## chiefsquirrel83

vanguard1 said:


> can,t you read or do you just want to lie to try and prove a point you think is right? i never said i did not sin, READ WHAT PEOPLE SAY .



 i was just reading as it was typed!!! I read what people say. And you seem to know everyone's fate. Apparently, to you, we are all condemned to the fire.


----------



## vanguard1

im not a sinner anymore, im a saint that may sin once in awhile, a sinner loves to sin.I hate it.

Luke 5:32 (King James Version)

32I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


Matthew 9:13 (King James Version)

13But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


Mark 2:15 (King James Version)

15And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him 

THIS IS WHAT I TYPED .


----------



## apoint

Dont grieve the Holy spirit.   I'm not condemning anyone because we all have our own problems with dening self. Personally, in the past, when I drank 2 beers I could feel the separation from the Holy Spirit. Tobacco can do the same thing. When you drink or smoke on a normal basis you dont realize the separation.
 The point I was trying to make earlier is we should be trying to get closer, not further away from the Holy Spirit.
 I'm not condemning one glass of wine or one beer with dinner if you dont have a drinking problem. But for a lot of people it is a problem even if they wont admit it.


----------



## 270 guy

vanguard1 said:


> im not a sinner anymore, im a saint that may sin once in awhile, a sinner loves to sin.I hate it.
> 
> Luke 5:32 (King James Version)
> 
> 32I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
> 
> 
> Matthew 9:13 (King James Version)
> 
> 13But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
> 
> 
> Mark 2:15 (King James Version)
> 
> 15And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him
> 
> THIS IS WHAT I TYPED .



WOW! Actually you are still a sinner your just a sinner saved by His grace.


----------



## Oldstick

chiefsquirrel83 said:


> I always say hello to friends and strangers in the beer store  Never hide that I am a sinner.



Yeah, for some reason, the Indian (or Pakistani or whatever) owners always greet me "Hey Boss Man!!  Long time no see!!!"


----------



## FritzMichaels

Drinking a beer is not sin. But when you 'drinki' a beer, that is definitly a sin...  lol


----------



## vanguard1

270 guy said:


> WOW! Actually you are still a sinner your just a sinner saved by His grace.



no where in the bible does it say SINNER SAVED BY GRACE that is a mans term, Jesus ALLWAYS seperated sinners from the righteous,

Psalm 1:1 (King James Version)

Psalm 1
 1Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
Psalm 1:5 (King James Version)

 5Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.


Psalm 26:9 (King James Version)

 9Gather not my soul with sinners, nor my life with bloody men:
Proverbs 1:10 (King James Version)

 10My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not.


Matthew 9:13 (King James Version)

 13But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

if you do a little studying you will see it all through the bible, when you are born again you become a saint, not for what you have done but because of what Jesus did.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (King James Version)

 21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


----------



## rjcruiser

vanguard1 said:


> no where in the bible does it say SINNER SAVED BY GRACE that is a mans term, Jesus ALLWAYS seperated sinners from the righteous,
> 
> Psalm 1:1 (King James Version)
> 
> Psalm 1
> 1Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
> Psalm 1:5 (King James Version)
> 
> 5Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
> 
> 
> Psalm 26:9 (King James Version)
> 
> 9Gather not my soul with sinners, nor my life with bloody men:
> Proverbs 1:10 (King James Version)
> 
> 10My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not.
> 
> 
> Matthew 9:13 (King James Version)
> 
> 13But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
> 
> if you do a little studying you will see it all through the bible, when you are born again you become a saint, not for what you have done but because of what Jesus did.
> 
> 2 Corinthians 5:21 (King James Version)
> 
> 21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.



Hmmm...yet I recall a certain passage in Romans saying "there is none righteous, no not one."  

And Paul said he was "Chief among Sinners."


Oh.... I don't believe the word "Saint" is found anywhere in the Bible either


----------



## vanguard1

taking out of context, paul was speaking of his past sins, he also said he had wronged no man, yet he killed many christians .  

1.Deuteronomy 33:2
And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
Deuteronomy 33:1-3 (in Context) Deuteronomy 33 (Whole Chapter) 
2.Deuteronomy 33:3
Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.
Deuteronomy 33:2-4 (in Context) Deuteronomy 33 (Whole Chapter) 
3.1 Samuel 2:9
He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.
1 Samuel 2:8-10 (in Context) 1 Samuel 2 (Whole Chapter) 
4.2 Chronicles 6:41
Now therefore arise, O LORD God, into thy resting place, thou, and the ark of thy strength: let thy priests, O LORD God, be clothed with salvation, and let thy saints rejoice in goodness.
2 Chronicles 6:40-42 (in Context) 2 Chronicles 6 (Whole Chapter) 
5.Job 5:1
Call now, if there be any that will answer thee; and to which of the saints wilt thou turn?
Job 5:1-3 (in Context) Job 5 (Whole Chapter) 
6.Job 15:15
Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight.
Job 15:14-16 (in Context) Job 15 (Whole Chapter) 
7.Psalm 16:3
But to the saints that are in the earth, and to the excellent, in whom is all my delight.
Psalm 16:2-4 (in Context) Psalm 16 (Whole Chapter) 
8.Psalm 30:4
Sing unto the LORD, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness.
Psalm 30:3-5 (in Context) Psalm 30 (Whole Chapter) 
9.Psalm 31:23
O love the LORD, all ye his saints: for the LORD preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer.
Psalm 31:22-24 (in Context) Psalm 31 (Whole Chapter) 
10.Psalm 34:9
O fear the LORD, ye his saints: for there is no want to them that fear him.

wow!  saint not in the bible?  only over 100 times. rofl


----------



## rjcruiser

vanguard1 said:


> taking out of context, paul was speaking of his past sins, he also said he had wronged no man, yet he killed many christians .
> 
> wow!  saint not in the bible?  only over 100 times. rofl



Context and translation.  Throw them to the wind and you can make the Bible say whatever you want.

Thanks for proving my point.


----------



## hayseed_theology

christianhunter said:


> Mark 7:15
> "There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him;but the things which come out of him,those are the things that defile a man."
> 
> I don't believe I have to add anything to this,all you have to have is spiritual discernment.If a born again Believer wants a drink,that is between them and THE LORD.As it has been said,everything in excess,except worship,is a sin.You can never have too much of THE LORD,or HIS WORD.Lots of finger pointing going on,and I know the ones pointing,have their own sinful vices as well.





Ronnie T said:


> I agree.
> Drinking an alcohol beverage is not a "Thus saith the Lord" sin.  Matter of fact, scriptures often speak of drinking alcohol.
> I personally believe it would be wrong for me to drink, but I have no grounds to condemn someone else for having a drink.
> 
> In this particular case, my belief belongs to me and I cannot and should not try to stuff my belief down someone elses throat.
> 
> But I do encourage all Christians not to drink at all.




x2 on these.  Good wisdom.


----------



## vanguard1

rjcruiser said:


> Context and translation.  Throw them to the wind and you can make the Bible say whatever you want.
> 
> Thanks for proving my point.



lol when faced with the truth of Gods word just make up your own doctrine.


----------



## rjcruiser

vanguard1 said:


> lol when faced with the truth of Gods word just make up your own doctrine.



Yup.  That's what many Baptists have done to justify their stance on alcohol.  That's what many Episcopalians have done justify their stance on Gay clergy.  That is what the Judaizers did to justify their position on circumcision.  

That is the importance of studying the entire Bible and not picking and choosing specific words or verses to try and prove a point.


----------



## Gabassmaster

rjcruiser said:


> yup.  That's what many baptists have done to justify their stance on alcohol.  That's what many episcopalians have done justify their stance on gay clergy.  That is what the judaizers did to justify their position on circumcision.
> 
> That is the importance of studying the entire bible and not picking and choosing specific words or verses to try and prove a point.



i second that


----------



## 270 guy

rjcruiser said:


> Yup.  That's what many Baptists have done to justify their stance on alcohol.  That's what many Episcopalians have done justify their stance on Gay clergy.  That is what the Judaizers did to justify their position on circumcision.
> 
> That is the importance of studying the entire Bible and not picking and choosing specific words or verses to try and prove a point.



GREAT Post!!!!! Everyone sins  I don't care what you call it or what verse you google up you still perform some sort of sin.


----------



## 270 guy

vanguard1 said:


> no where in the bible does it say SINNER SAVED BY GRACE that is a mans term, Jesus ALLWAYS seperated sinners from the righteous,
> 
> Psalm 1:1 (King James Version)
> 
> Psalm 1
> 1Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
> Psalm 1:5 (King James Version)
> 
> 5Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
> 
> 
> Psalm 26:9 (King James Version)
> 
> 9Gather not my soul with sinners, nor my life with bloody men:
> Proverbs 1:10 (King James Version)
> 
> 10My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not.
> 
> 
> Matthew 9:13 (King James Version)
> 
> 13But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
> 
> if you do a little studying you will see it all through the bible, when you are born again you become a saint, not for what you have done but because of what Jesus did.
> 
> 2 Corinthians 5:21 (King James Version)
> 
> 21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.



Did I say it said it anywhere in the Bible?

 No matter how hard you try and reword it your nothing more than a sinner that was saved by Gods grace plain and simple.


----------



## vanguard1

Jesus ALLWAYS seperated sinners from the righteous, so take it up with him. the blood of Jesus is so powerful but you would make it weak , john said behold the lamb of God which TAKETH AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD.


----------



## olchevy

Dominic said:


> Who is in greater sin the teetotaler who is grossly overweight, who has more plaque in their arteries then on their teeth, who has diabetes, and has a laundry list of other lifestyle illnesses or the person that has taken care of their body is of normal weight, has normal cholesterol levels, has normal blood pressure and has a couple of drinks a night?
> 
> 
> How many of you that are so against drinking are overweight, have high cholesterol, have diabetes, have high blood pressure or any number of lifestyle-induced illnesses?



I was thinking the same thing....


----------



## vanguard1

if you have to have it every nite ,you are hooked


----------



## rjcruiser

vanguard1 said:


> if you have to have it every nite ,you are hooked



I'd agree with you on that.

But that wasn't the original question.

What about the person who can have it once a week?


----------



## Huntinfool

i don't have to have it every night....I can quit whenever I want....really I can...I promise...YOU DON'T KNOW ME!




All I know is that if drinking beer is a sin, I've wasted an aweful lot of time developing a deep relationship with a savior.


----------



## vanguard1

rjcruiser said:


> I'd agree with you on that.
> 
> But that wasn't the original question.
> 
> What about the person who can have it once a week?



hey i have friends that know the lord and drink a beer sometimes, i dont care, some people can do that i can,t. what i am trying to get across is how it can turn from once in a while to every weekend then every other day then every day then in the morning then you are hooked, this is what happens to a lot of people, and one sign is when you start to say " i can stop anytime i want" that is the story of thousands of people, i have herd it all and been through it all from aa to in house treatment. i am just trying to warn people im not out to judge any one.


----------



## FireHunter174

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.  That's one of the basics as a Christian.  Who are we to judge others?

Are you not going to Heaven because of drinking alcohol?  Who am I to speak for God?  Anyone who answers this question with certainty must be a prophet.  I agree with the "moderation" idea.  I think over-indulgence in a lot of things are bad for us and sinful.

I, personally haven't had a beer in a long time and don't desire one.  That doesn't make me a better Christian than those that do.  I just don't.  I do, however, smoke cigarettes.  I know they are harmful to me and hope to quit in the future.  Does this habit send me straight downstairs?  If you try to answer this, you had better think long and hard about what qualifies you to do so.

Just remember, God loves everyone on the face of this earth equally:  from those who try to follow the Bible to a "T", to those who reject Him.  Until we take our last breath on this earth, we are blessed with the opportunity to repent and accept Jesus as our true Lord and Saviour.  So, think about that next time you look down your noses at people who live differently than you do.  Is a judgemental Christian a Christian at all?  Pride is also a sin.

I think everybody needs to focus on their own walk with the Lord and quit judging others or worrying about the guy across the aisle in church.


----------



## vanguard1

and who are you? oh just joined last month.

Romans 3:20-24 (King James Version)

 20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 

 21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 

 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 

 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 

 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


this is talking about us being made righteous not about sin, please keep it in context.


----------



## elfiii

formula1 said:


> Last time I had a drink was in June of 2010. I enjoyed a celebratory beer with my 24 year old Marine son who had just returned from Afghanistan. And I don't care what you say, it was GOOD and RIGHTand WORTHY of celebration. It meant something to Him and that was good enough for me.  Praise God Almighty for his safe return.
> 
> Matthew 23:24
> You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!



Oooh Rah and Semper Fi Devildawg Dad!

My Marine turns 23 Friday. I am headed out the door in a few with his mama, his sister and him for a celebratory birthday dinner tonight. I will definitely be sharing an adult beverage with him. It will not be a sin and we will enjoy ourselves and I won't give a whit what others think of me for doing so. They can neither help nor hinder my entrance to Heaven and I will be going there eventually.


----------



## FireHunter174

vanguard1 said:


> and who are you? oh just joined last month.




Oh, I'm sorry.  Am I underqualified to post?




vanguard1 said:


> Romans 3:20-24 (King James Version)
> 
> 20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
> 
> 21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
> 
> 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
> 
> 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
> 
> 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
> 
> 
> this is talking about us being made righteous not about sin, please keep it in context.





You have a Bible too?  I'm glad to see it.

Like I said, I haven't had a beer in years.  I used to drink quite a bit until about 10 years ago.  I am now a father of 3 and a volunteer firefighter.  And, I consider myself a Christian.  But, I can't bring myself, as a Christian, to pass judgement on others in this case.  The difference between an occasional beer and getting drunk regularly are absolutely different altogether.  You seem awful combative with everyone on this.  I take it you don't drink.


----------



## vanguard1

i have many bibles and books and tapes and a diploma from bible school, if you would have looked at all the post and mine # 179 you would know what is being said, instead of looking at one post then going off the deep end.


----------



## Ronnie T

vanguard1 said:


> no where in the bible does it say SINNER SAVED BY GRACE that is a mans term, Jesus ALLWAYS seperated sinners from the righteous,
> 
> Psalm 1:1 (King James Version)
> 
> Psalm 1
> 1Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
> Psalm 1:5 (King James Version)
> 
> 5Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
> 
> 
> Psalm 26:9 (King James Version)
> 
> 9Gather not my soul with sinners, nor my life with bloody men:
> Proverbs 1:10 (King James Version)
> 
> 10My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not.
> 
> 
> Matthew 9:13 (King James Version)
> 
> 13But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
> 
> if you do a little studying you will see it all through the bible, when you are born again you become a saint, not for what you have done but because of what Jesus did.
> 
> 2 Corinthians 5:21 (King James Version)
> 
> 21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.



I gotcha and I understand what you're saying.


----------



## FritzMichaels

ok, we're gonna have to separate you two until yall learn to play nice. Yall are disrupting class. Oh wait, we dont have any class left...  lol..


----------



## olcowman

vanguard1 said:


> Good and right? yes your son coming home is, in my family we celebrate with a hug and being together and some sweet tea, why do we need alchool to celebrate something? anyway God bless your son, and I say thank you to him for his service.



I always figured it was this over-zeolous, fanatical, no wavering style of witnessing, that is not quite grounded in scrpiture to begin with.... this sort of thing is exactly what is causing all the empty seats in traditional churches. Jesus sure didn't come across this way, what compells these folks to condemn and pass judgement on others?


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

elfiii said:


> Oooh Rah and Semper Fi Devildawg Dad!
> 
> My Marine turns 23 Friday. I am headed out the door in a few with his mama, his sister and him for a celebratory birthday dinner tonight. I will definitely be sharing an adult beverage with him. It will not be a sin and we will enjoy ourselves and I won't give a whit what others think of me for doing so. They can neither help nor hinder my entrance to Heaven and I will be going there eventually.


----------



## 270 guy

vanguard1 said:


> i have many bibles and books and tapes and a diploma from bible school, if you would have looked at all the post and mine # 179 you would know what is being said, instead of looking at one post then going off the deep end.



Now your my hero you have many bibles and tapes and so on. So does that make you a better Christian then the above poster? Why even bring that up unless you think your better then anyone else? Having all that doesn't make you one bit better or closer to God then anyone else on this forum or anywhere else.


We have many Bibles and study guides and so on in our house that doesn't mean I'm a better Christian then anyone. I do strive to do my best to live a clean Christian lifestyle but non of us are perfect.
I didn't notice him going off anymore then you have with everyone else judging them for there actions. God will be the judge one day for everyone.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

The athiest are enjoying this.


----------



## dawg2

1gr8bldr said:


> The athiest are enjoying this.



...as well as many Christians...


----------



## Jeffriesw

rjcruiser said:


> Yup.  That's what many Baptists have done to justify their stance on alcohol.  That's what many Episcopalians have done justify their stance on Gay clergy.  That is what the Judaizers did to justify their position on circumcision.
> 
> That is the importance of studying the entire Bible and not picking and choosing specific words or verses to try and prove a point.




I don't drink much myself, But here's to ya 





1gr8bldr said:


> The athiest are enjoying this.





dawg2 said:


> ...as well as many Christians...



Yep, don't we have this asinine argument every couple of months or so?

Ya'll need Bishop Bill to set ya'll straight?


----------



## 270 guy

dawg2 said:


> ...as well as many Christians...



EXACTLY! LOL


----------



## BIG LAZER DEER SLAYER

this is not a million dollar question. more like a 1 dollar question. and no drinking beer is not a sin


----------



## Ronnie T

olcowman said:


> I always figured it was this over-zeolous, fanatical, no wavering style of witnessing, that is not quite grounded in scrpiture to begin with.... this sort of thing is exactly what is causing all the empty seats in traditional churches. Jesus sure didn't come across this way, what compells these folks to condemn and pass judgement on others?




Jesus could get pretty tough on folks who didn't strive for obedience.


----------



## formula1

elfiii said:


> Oooh Rah and Semper Fi Devildawg Dad!
> 
> My Marine turns 23 Friday. I am headed out the door in a few with his mama, his sister and him for a celebratory birthday dinner tonight. I will definitely be sharing an adult beverage with him. It will not be a sin and we will enjoy ourselves and I won't give a whit what others think of me for doing so. They can neither help nor hinder my entrance to Heaven and I will be going there eventually.



Good to hear from ya elfii.  I'm glad to know your son is doing well.  And I'm glad to know you got the meaning of my post. And I'm sure you'll be in heaven one day provided Christ is in your heart.  No celebratory beer will take that away.

My son(he's 24) will be exiting the USMC in December, coming home to go back to finish college and get married next year.  We are excited to see him coming home. May the Lord richly bless you and yours!


----------



## elfiii

formula1 said:


> Good to hear from ya elfii.  I'm glad to know your son is doing well.  And I'm glad to know you got the meaning of my post. And I'm sure you'll be in heaven one day provided Christ is in your heart.  No celebratory beer will take that away.
> 
> My son(he's 24) will be exiting the USMC in December, coming home to go back to finish college and get married next year.  We are excited to see him coming home. May the Lord richly bless you and yours!



Outstanding! Your Marine has served his country well and brought honor on his mama and daddy who raised him right. All God's blessings to him and your family from ours!

We enjoyed a sumptuous repast of sushi and sashimi this evening. The chilled sake was an excellent companion. You will be pleased to know we all matched glasses to honor both your son and the Corps' birthday next Wednesday. 235 years old and still going strong!

Semper Fi! and if we don't meet in this world we will surely meet in Heaven!


----------



## FritzMichaels

Ronnie T said:


> Jesus could get pretty tough on folks who didn't strive for obedience.



He wasnt refering to the Jesus of the bible. He was refering to his bobble head jesus on his dash.  lol


----------



## WHOSHOTYA

most people dont go to church because they have been to church, the scripture is a living document, and it is up to you to keep it alive....ramming it down someones throat, or implying that you have a closer relationship with the heavenly father because you dont drink alcohol is a little outlandish. As I said in the judgement thread, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. There is no way for one man to truly know the depth of another mans relationship with Christ. With that being said, if drinking alcohol was a sin (I dont believe it to be) Who here among us is truly without sin. Not I and not any of you, so dont be so quick to pass judgement on the drunkard when it is you who has a lustful heart.


----------



## vanguard1

270 guy said:


> Now your my hero you have many bibles and tapes and so on. So does that make you a better Christian then the above poster? Why even bring that up unless you think your better then anyone else? Having all that doesn't make you one bit better or closer to God then anyone else on this forum or anywhere else.
> 
> 
> We have many Bibles and study guides and so on in our house that doesn't mean I'm a better Christian then anyone. I do strive to do my best to live a clean Christian lifestyle but non of us are perfect.
> I didn't notice him going off anymore then you have with everyone else judging them for there actions. God will be the judge one day for everyone.



I never said that, but like some of you here you only hear what you want to hear and like putting words in peoples mouths rather than address the word which i have shown, and the reason i bring up the fact of my bible school diploma is to show that i took 4 years of my life to study the word of God and to learn plus over 30 years of personal study, so that I can give Gods word instead of what I think.

thank you too the ones here that understand what I am saying, all I have tried to do is warn you of the danger of alcohol and how easy it is to get hooked, 

Proverbs 1:5 (King James Version)


 5A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:


but some of you want to fight to keep your alcohol so keep it, it would not matter what Gods word said ,you are goin to do what you want. so im done, but do not try to say I have judged anyone, all I have  done is try and help you from goin through what I and thousands of other christians have gone through.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

vanguard1 said:


> thank you too the ones here that understand what I am saying, all I have tried to do is warn you of the danger of alcohol and how easy it is to get hooked,
> .


 
I would rather see someone take a more credible stance and warn people on here the dangers of becoming addicted to anything. "All things in moderation" but even water, when drank to an excess, can kill you.


----------



## Parker Phoenix

This is the ugliest forum on this site. I have seen more bickering here than any other subject, including dogs on the deer hunting threads. Those that have claim to be saved are some of the nastiest, others seem to come here to start stuff. Jesus would not approve of either. I'll be in church on Sunday, but I'll never come back to this forum.


----------



## 270 guy

vanguard1 said:


> I never said that, but like some of you here you only hear what you want to hear and like putting words in peoples mouths rather than address the word which i have shown, and the reason i bring up the fact of my bible school diploma is to show that i took 4 years of my life to study the word of God and to learn plus over 30 years of personal study, so that I can give Gods word instead of what I think.
> 
> thank you too the ones here that understand what I am saying, all I have tried to do is warn you of the danger of alcohol and how easy it is to get hooked,
> 
> Proverbs 1:5 (King James Version)
> 
> 
> 5A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
> 
> 
> but some of you want to fight to keep your alcohol so keep it, it would not matter what Gods word said ,you are goin to do what you want. so im done, but do not try to say I have judged anyone, all I have  done is try and help you from goin through what I and thousands of other christians have gone through.



Being that you quoted me.... You must not read well. I DO NOT drink not hard to understand. But don't like to see someone come down on others like he is above them or better then them because he/you have many bibles or went to school to read those bibles. If you went to bible college you should have learned how to spread Gods word instead of downing others in the name of Gods word.

 I am not for drinking at all and have taught my kids to not drink  and have done a great job so far. The choice is theres now. If one chooses to drink it is between them and God not me. 

I understand one drink can and usually does turn into two and so on.


----------



## Dominic

Parker Phoenix said:


> This is the ugliest forum on this site. I have seen more bickering here than any other subject, including dogs on the deer hunting threads. Those that have claim to be saved are some of the nastiest, others seem to come here to start stuff. Jesus would not approve of either. I'll be in church on Sunday, but I'll never come back to this forum.



Thank you for your addition


----------



## Gabassmaster

Parker Phoenix said:


> This is the ugliest forum on this site. I have seen more bickering here than any other subject, including dogs on the deer hunting threads. Those that have claim to be saved are some of the nastiest, others seem to come here to start stuff. Jesus would not approve of either. I'll be in church on Sunday, but I'll never come back to this forum.



Some poeple cant handle the truth


----------



## FireHunter174

I'm converting to Vanguardism! 



The Bible is the best and only tool we have as Christians.  But, like any tool, it can be used wrongly, especially when it serves our purpose.  Let's compare it to a hammer.  If you use a hammer with the head, you can build a firm, beautiful house.  If you use the claw, you would miss the mark 90% of the time while tearing down what you were trying to build.  Just a thought.


----------



## FritzMichaels

Parker Phoenix said:


> Those that have claim to be saved are some of the nastiest, .



but Jesus would approve of this comment??   

Judge not lest you be judged.

It will never cease to amaze me why some people cant stand a little debate. If you cant stand spiritual debate go to the girl scout forums...


----------



## rjcruiser

vanguard1 said:


> and the reason i bring up the fact of my bible school diploma is to show that i took 4 years of my life to study the word of God and to learn plus over 30 years of personal study, so that I can give Gods word instead of what I think.



Are you related to Lowjack?




Yes Dawg...I'm enjoying this one too.


----------



## Gabassmaster

FritzMichaels said:


> but Jesus would approve of this comment??
> 
> Judge not lest you be judged.
> 
> It will never cease to amaze me why some people cant stand a little debate. If you cant stand spiritual debate go to the girl scout forums...



Fritz i think hes gone


----------



## dawg2

rjcruiser said:


> Yes Dawg...I'm enjoying this one too.



It is very interesting...

It sounds like a bunch of Pharisees in here...Jesus the "wine bibber" (drunkard) according to the Bible...  Mathew 11:19


----------



## chiefsquirrel83

This thread has showed me who are the people who use Bible Scripture as a weapon to attack us real Christians who openly admit to sin and accept Jesus as our Savior. I do not have to post EVERY verse in the Bible to prove that I am a Christian. I am listening to some Randy Travis Glory Train album drinking a cold Coors Light! And what you see in my avatar hangs around my neck through thick and thin. Only took it off for that picture.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

chiefsquirrel83 said:


> This thread has showed me who are the people who use Bible Scripture as a weapon to attack us real Christians who openly admit to sin and accept Jesus as our Savior. I do not have to post EVERY verse in the Bible to prove that I am a Christian. I am listening to some Randy Travis Glory Train album drinking a cold Coors Light! And what you see in my avatar hangs around my neck through thick and thin. Only took it off for that picture.


 
I'll drink to that!!


----------



## FritzMichaels

chiefsquirrel83 said:


> This thread has showed me who are the people who use Bible Scripture as a weapon to attack us real Christians who openly admit to sin and accept Jesus as our Savior. I do not have to post EVERY verse in the Bible to prove that I am a Christian. I am listening to some Randy Travis Glory Train album drinking a cold Coors Light! And what you see in my avatar hangs around my neck through thick and thin. Only took it off for that picture.



I am sure that your dedication to your 'beads' makes Jesus very proud.


----------



## vanguard1

FritzMichaels said:


> I am sure that your dedication to your 'beads' makes Jesus very proud.



lol...good one.  yes and i like the " REAL CHRISTIANS" line , while he sucks on his beer maybe a new christian will see that and think, hey i can drink and be a christian , and starts down the road to addiction. good job. that beer brings glory to God. and as far as the cross goes i don,t wear one, i wear a star of david.

Originally Posted by vanguard1  
this reminds me of a story joyce myer told, one day some kids asked thier mom if they could go to a movie, when the mom asked what is the rating they said pg13, so the mom said why is it pg13, they said it had just a few bad words in it,the mom said do you think God would approve of it, they said it is just a little, so the mom said first let me make some brownies, so after a while she called the kids in to eat the brownies, just before they took a bite she said I think you need to know something about these brownies, i put a little of the dogs poo in them just a little you wont even taste it, the kids said no way we wont eat that, the mom said why it is JUST A LITTLE. that took care of the movie!


----------



## FritzMichaels

These days, to be a "real" Christian; instead of obedience to Christ, you are obedient to flesh and instead of following the bible you follow the world and instead of abstaining from the appearance of evil you embrace it and instead of being a called out peculiar person, you woller in sin just like the heathen.  Its no wonder why Jesus put the "I will vomit you out of my mouth", verse in his holy word.


----------



## apoint

Do you think I could be a "real Christian" If  I listen to Randy Travis
 and drink a cold one. I promise to get me a beaded chain cross ?
  All I can say is Wow


----------



## Gabassmaster

apoint said:


> Do you think I could be a "real Christian" If  I listen to Randy Travis
> and drink a cold one. I promise to get me a beaded chain cross ?
> All I can say is Wow



Ill listen to George jones, buy me some jesus flip flops, a robe and a chain cross!


----------



## vanguard1

i can get you some flip flops at the dollar store


----------



## vanguard1

has anyone ever seen a beer mug at a christian book store?


----------



## apoint

Sounds like we need a beer mug on a chain to me.


----------



## Gabassmaster

vanguard1 said:


> has anyone ever seen a beer mug at a christian book store?



nope!

i dont see HOLY WATER signs hanging up in the beer sections either.


----------



## Gabassmaster

apoint said:


> Sounds like we need a beer mug on a chain to me.


----------



## decoyed

vanguard1 said:


> Good and right? yes your son coming home is, in my family we celebrate with a hug and being together and some sweet tea, why do we need alchool to celebrate something? anyway God bless your son, and I say thank you to him for his service.



you forgot the big, greasy poke chops and friend chicken.  Eating till your 300 lb frame cant hold another bite! Much better for you than a couple of beers.


----------



## chiefsquirrel83

Vanguard1and Fritz your post and ideologies are exactly what makes it hard for non-believers and the lost to accept Christianity. People like you attacking other's for what they do. Who are you to condemn somebody. Who are you to say that I am a "fake" All you do is copy and paste scripture and big quotes with no honest to goodness explanation. People interpret the Bible differently. In your case, you use your faith to attack others and to tell them they are wrong. Maybe you need to sit back and look at yourself before judging others for what they do.


----------



## Nicodemus

Holy wars? Ya`ll fight amongst yourselves more than deer hunters do.


----------



## chiefsquirrel83

we are all sinners. None of us are perfect. If you claim to live a completely sin free life and do nothing wrong then that would just make you arrogant and ignorant. It is Human Nature. But it is my duty as a Christian to ask for forgiveness and give my heart to Jesus and God.


----------



## vanguard1

chiefsquirrel83 said:


> Vanguard1and Fritz your post and ideologies are exactly what makes it hard for non-believers and the lost to accept Christianity. People like you attacking other's for what they do. Who are you to condemn somebody. Who are you to say that I am a "fake" All you do is copy and paste scripture and big quotes with no honest to goodness explanation. People interpret the Bible differently. In your case, you use your faith to attack others and to tell them they are wrong. Maybe you need to sit back and look at yourself before judging others for what they do.



hey im in good company


----------



## vanguard1

its funny when people can,t take it when faced with Gods word.


----------



## vanguard1

decoyed said:


> you forgot the big, greasy poke chops and friend chicken.  Eating till your 300 lb frame cant hold another bite! Much better for you than a couple of beers.[/QUOTE
> 
> this 300 lb frame can hold it,s own with anybody


----------



## dawg2

vanguard1 said:


> its funny when people can,t take it when faced with Gods word.



Can you explain:  Mathew 11:19


----------



## vanguard1

yes.

Matthew 11:19


Wisdom is justified by her works (edikaiwth apo twn ergwn authv). 
A timeless aorist passive (Robertson, Grammar, p. 836f.). The word "justified" means "set right" Luke (Luke 7:35) has "by all her children" as some MSS. have here to make Matthew like Luke. These words are difficult, but understandable. God's wisdom has planned the different conduct of both John and Jesus. He does not wish all to be just alike in everything. "This generation" (verse 16) is childish, not childlike, and full of whimsical inconsistencies in their faultfinding. They exaggerate in each case. John did not have a demon and Jesus was not a glutton or a winebibber. "And, worse than either, for pilov is used in a sinister sense and implies that Jesus was the comrade of the worst characters, and like them in conduct. A malicious nickname at first, it is now a name of honour: the sinner's lover" (Bruce). Cf. Luke 15:2. The plan of God is justified by results.

 The Son of man came eating. Like other men. He was at the wedding feast of Cana (John 2:1-11); at Matthew's feast, (Matt. 9:10), etc. A wine-bibber. There was nothing singular about his social habits. Like all the people, he drank the light, harmless wine of Palestine, either free from, or with a very slight percentage of, alcohol. Our modern wines are very different. A friend of publicans and sinners. See note on Matt. 9:12, 13. Wisdom is justified of her children. Those who are wise will approve both the course of John and his Lord


----------



## dawg2

vanguard1 said:


> yes.
> 
> Matthew 11:19
> 
> 
> Wisdom is justified by her works (edikaiwth apo twn ergwn authv).
> A timeless aorist passive (Robertson, Grammar, p. 836f.). The word "justified" means "set right" Luke (Luke 7:35) has "by all her children" as some MSS. have here to make Matthew like Luke. These words are difficult, but understandable. God's wisdom has planned the different conduct of both John and Jesus. He does not wish all to be just alike in everything. "This generation" (verse 16) is childish, not childlike, and full of whimsical inconsistencies in their faultfinding. They exaggerate in each case. John did not have a demon and Jesus was not a glutton or a winebibber. "And, worse than either, for pilov is used in a sinister sense and implies that Jesus was the comrade of the worst characters, and like them in conduct. A malicious nickname at first, it is now a name of honour: the sinner's lover" (Bruce). Cf. Luke 15:2. The plan of God is justified by results.
> 
> The Son of man came eating. Like other men. He was at the wedding feast of Cana (John 2:1-11); at Matthew's feast, (Matt. 9:10), etc. A wine-bibber. There was nothing singular about his social habits. Like all the people, he drank the light, harmless wine of Palestine, either free from, or with a very slight percentage of, alcohol. Our modern wines are very different. A friend of publicans and sinners. See note on Matt. 9:12, 13. Wisdom is justified of her children. Those who are wise will approve both the course of John and his Lord


Do you have a source for that information?


----------



## vanguard1

dawg2 said:


> Do you have a source for that information?



yes  me.


----------



## 270 guy

vanguard1 said:


> yes.
> 
> Matthew 11:19
> 
> 
> Wisdom is justified by her works (edikaiwth apo twn ergwn authv).
> A timeless aorist passive (Robertson, Grammar, p. 836f.). The word "justified" means "set right" Luke (Luke 7:35) has "by all her children" as some MSS. have here to make Matthew like Luke. These words are difficult, but understandable. God's wisdom has planned the different conduct of both John and Jesus. He does not wish all to be just alike in everything. "This generation" (verse 16) is childish, not childlike, and full of whimsical inconsistencies in their faultfinding. They exaggerate in each case. John did not have a demon and Jesus was not a glutton or a winebibber. "And, worse than either, for pilov is used in a sinister sense and implies that Jesus was the comrade of the worst characters, and like them in conduct. A malicious nickname at first, it is now a name of honour: the sinner's lover" (Bruce). Cf. Luke 15:2. The plan of God is justified by results.
> 
> The Son of man came eating. Like other men. He was at the wedding feast of Cana (John 2:1-11); at Matthew's feast, (Matt. 9:10), etc. A wine-bibber. There was nothing singular about his social habits. Like all the people, he drank the light, harmless wine of Palestine, either free from, or with a very slight percentage of, alcohol. Our modern wines are very different. A friend of publicans and sinners. See note on Matt. 9:12, 13. Wisdom is justified of her children. Those who are wise will approve both the course of John and his Lord



Can you provide proof or this? Not your opinion but actual proof this is true?


----------



## vanguard1

do what i do.

2 Timothy 2:15 (King James Version)

 15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.


----------



## packrat

*?????*

I guess that's a no.


----------



## The Original Rooster

Well, when the Falcons play tomorrow, I'll be doing some sinning while watching the game.


----------



## Ronnie T

I won't be.


----------



## vanguard1

The Christian life is a life that consists of following Jesus. If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.” O that you and I may gain distinction for the closeness of our walk to Christ, and then shall we be “close communionists” indeed. There is a class described in Scripture of whom it is said, “These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth.” But sad to Say, there is another class, and a large class, who seem to follow the Lord fitfully, spasmodically, half-heartedly, occasionally, distantly. There is much of the World and much of self in their lives, and so little of Christ. Thrice happy shall he be who like Caleb followeth the Lord fully.

Now, beloved, our chief business and aim is to follow Christ, but there are difficulties in the way. There are obstacles in the path, and it is to them that the first part of our text refers. You notice that the words “follow Me” come at the end. Self, self stands in the way, and the world with its ten thousand attractions and distractions is an obstacle; and therefore Christ says, “If any man will come after Me—(first) let him deny himself, (second) take up his cross, (third) and follow Me.” And there we learn the reason why so few professing Christians are following Him closely, manifestly, consistently


----------



## apoint

Ronnie T said:


> I won't be.



I wont be either brother.


----------



## chiefsquirrel83

then here's my question Vanguard and all others on here who apparently know exactly every verse in the Bible and can interpret it completely. Us beer, whiskey, wine, vodka drinkers...are we going to the Fire???


----------



## The Original Rooster

chiefsquirrel83 said:


> then here's my question Vanguard and all others on here who apparently know exactly every verse in the Bible and can interpret it completely. Us beer, whiskey, wine, vodka drinkers...are we going to the Fire???



I can assure you that we are not. Our salvation is perfectly safe.


----------



## apoint

chiefsquirrel83 said:


> then here's my question Vanguard and all others on here who apparently know exactly every verse in the Bible and can interpret it completely. Us beer, whiskey, wine, vodka drinkers...are we going to the Fire???



 Do you get drunk? If yes, there will be a place for you in the smoking section.
 Quote," I never knew you".

Matthew 24:49-51--and shall cut him asunder


----------



## chiefsquirrel83

apoint said:


> Do you get drunk? If yes, there will be a place for you in the smoking section.
> Quote," I never knew you".
> 
> Matthew 24:49-51--and shall cut him asunder



I knew my question would draw out arrogrance. I forgot, you must be God and Jesus Christ combined into one and condemn all and tell us what our fate is. I am a Christian but remarks like yours are what pushes people away from the Christian fate.


----------



## apoint

chiefsquirrel83 said:


> I knew my question would draw out arrogrance. I forgot, you must be God and Jesus Christ combined into one and condemn all and tell us what our fate is. I am a Christian but remarks like yours are what pushes people away from the Christian fate.



 I quoted scripture for you, nice to know God's scripture is arrogance. I never have to condem anyone. Your own actions condem yourself. Would you feel all nice and fuzzy if I lied to you? OK, drink all you like because the bible is a ferry tail, cant believe a word of it. Have another one and try not to spill your drink on the keyboard.


----------



## The Original Rooster

apoint said:


> I quoted scripture for you, nice to know God's scripture is arrogance. I never have to condem anyone. Your own actions condem yourself. Would you feel all nice and fuzzy if I lied to you? OK, drink all you like because the bible is a ferry tail, cant believe a word of it. Have another one and try not to spill your drink on the keyboard.



Folks, scripture says that there is only one unforgivable sin and drinking beer, whiskey, and wine ain't it.


----------



## Sniper Bob

I just tuned in. Really??? Is this all in the world you are worried about???!!?? Who has a beer or a drink of wine..or goodness no!!!  A mixed drink!! Get a life people!!!! Especially you extremists...you make me think of other extremists...Muslim extremist!!!! Worry about your christianity and not about mine or any one else!!! Sick of the crap...walk the walk or shut up!!!


----------



## apoint

RoosterTodd said:


> Folks, scripture says that there is only one unforgivable sin and drinking beer, whiskey, and wine ain't it.



So you are admitting that you will have to get forgiveness for your drinking?
 He comes like a thief in the night.
 Who's to know you wont die tonight in your sleep, or in a car wreck, unforgiven. 
 What kind of witness is a drunk?
How close to God are you with your bottle?
 Would you walk into church tomorrow with your beer?
Will you throw a few back with your preacher?
Will you get in front of the church tomorrow and tell all how you drank tonight?
  Just wondering brother. I mean no harm.


----------



## 270 guy

vanguard1 said:


> do what i do.
> 
> 2 Timothy 2:15 (King James Version)
> 
> 15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.



That's what I thought you have no true proof just another one of your opinions.


----------



## dbodkin

Parker Phoenix said:


> This is the ugliest forum on this site. I have seen more bickering here than any other subject, including dogs on the deer hunting threads. Those that have claim to be saved are some of the nastiest, others seem to come here to start stuff. Jesus would not approve of either. I'll be in church on Sunday, but I'll never come back to this forum.



I'll drink to that


----------



## apoint

Sniper Bob said:


> I just tuned in. Really??? Is this all in the world you are worried about???!!?? Who has a beer or a drink of wine..or goodness no!!!  A mixed drink!! Get a life people!!!! Especially you extremists...you make me think of other extremists...Muslim extremist!!!! Worry about your christianity and not about mine or any one else!!! Sick of the crap...walk the walk or shut up!!!



 You came a bit late there Bob. The drinkers are asking the questions here and people are quoting scripture. If you dont like questions about scripture dont read them.


----------



## 270 guy

apoint said:


> So you are admitting that you will have to get forgiveness for your drinking?
> He comes like a thief in the night.
> Who's to know you wont die tonight in your sleep, or in a car wreck, unforgiven.
> What kind of witness is a drunk?
> How close to God are you with your bottle?
> Would you walk into church tomorrow with your beer?
> Will you throw a few back with your preacher?
> Will you get in front of the church tomorrow and tell all how you drank tonight?
> Just wondering brother. I mean no harm.



So your saying you never sin?  If you do you always ask Gods forgivness at that exact moment?

Just wondering Brother I mean no harm either.

 I don't drink but don't like seeing some that think they are above others down them like they are sinless. I don't drink, smoke, curse or chew but don't think I am above anyone who does. I know how I was raised and raised my sons the same way. It kills me seeing some post how great they are and condemn others like they are 100% sure they are going to H e l l


----------



## The Original Rooster

apoint said:


> So you are admitting that you will have to get forgiveness for your drinking?
> He comes like a thief in the night.
> Who's to know you wont die tonight in your sleep, or in a car wreck, unforgiven.
> What kind of witness is a drunk?
> How close to God are you with your bottle?
> Would you walk into church tomorrow with your beer?
> Will you throw a few back with your preacher?
> Will you get in front of the church tomorrow and tell all how you drank tonight?
> Just wondering brother. I mean no harm.



apoint,
As you mean no harm, I'll answer your questions in a private message so that you and everyone else will know that I mean no harm either.


----------



## apoint

270 guy said:


> So your saying you never sin?  If you do you always ask Gods forgivmness at that exact moment?
> 
> Just wondering Brother I mean no harm either.
> 
> I don't drink but don't like seeing some that think they are above others down them like they are sinless. I don't drink, smoke, curse or chew but don't think I am above anyone who does. I know how I was raised and raised my sons the same way. It kills me seeing some post how great they are and condemn others like they are 100% sure they are going to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----.



 As I said previously," I personally dont condem anyone"
 Dont ask me for scripture if you dont want scripture.
 My opinion does not matter, only Gods opinion matters. So if you dont like what God wrote take it up with him.
 I am not holier than thou and dont care where some one stands in the pecking order. I just worry about myself. So if you dont like my answers dont ask questions.


----------



## Ronnie T

chiefsquirrel83 said:


> then here's my question Vanguard and all others on here who apparently know exactly every verse in the Bible and can interpret it completely. Us beer, whiskey, wine, vodka drinkers...are we going to the Fire???



I wouldn't think so.
But since beer isn't my drink of choice I never have to ponder that question for myself.


----------



## apoint

Ronnie T said:


> I wouldn't think so.
> But since beer isn't my drink of choice I never have to ponder that question for myself.



Then Im sorry, I must be misinterpreting Mathew24:49-51


----------



## Old Winchesters

270 guy said:


> Only problem I have is your testimony to others if you claim to be a Christian.
> 
> Say your trying to get your neighbor saved and you have been talking to him for a while now. You decide to go to john q's bar. What happens when your neighbor  sees you there drinking what does that say about your testimony to the one you are supposed to be living better then so to speak as a Christian?



I'm on the fence on this subject but have to say your statement makes good sense the appearance could be wrong. I still don't think it would keep one out of heaven but as you say it could effect those you may have had a chance to witness to otherwise. I say if you wonder if it's the right thing for you to do then it probably ain't. Personally I feel there are times it would be sin and times it would not.


----------



## 270 guy

apoint said:


> As I said previously," I personally dont condem anyone"
> Dont ask me for scripture if you dont want scripture.
> My opinion does not matter, only Gods opinion matters. So if you dont like what God wrote take it up with him.
> I am not holier than thou and dont care where some one stands in the pecking order. I just worry about myself. So if you dont like my answers dont ask questions.


I didn't ask you for any scripture I asked you a direct question.

I really don't care where you stand it's none of my business. I asked you a question why not answer it. My question was to you not asking for scripture. You seem to beat around the bush when asked a direct question.


----------



## 270 guy

1lineman said:


> I'm on the fence on this subject but have to say your statement makes good sense the appearance could be wrong. I still don't think it would keep one out of heaven but as you say it could effect those you may have had a chance to witness to otherwise. I say if you wonder if it's the right thing for you to do then it probably ain't. Personally I feel there are times it would be sin and times it would not.



That's probably the best way one can tell in my opinion. If you have to think or wonder about it then it probably isn't right.


----------



## apoint

270 guy said:


> I didn't ask you for any scripture I asked you a direct question.
> 
> I really don't care where you stand it's none of my business. I asked you a question why not answer it. My question was to you not asking for scripture. You seem to beat around the bush when asked a direct question.



 As I said, I offer scripture. That is my direct answer.


----------



## 270 guy

apoint said:


> As I said, I offer scripture. That is my direct answer.



"So your saying you never sin? If you do you always ask Gods forgivness at that exact moment?"


This is my quote above I will ask it once more. You have no scripture for a direct question to you if you do and can answer the question directed at you with scripture have at it but you can't. God never mentioned you in the Bible anywhere that I have seen other then your a sinner like the rest of us.. 

This is the type of stuff that turns people away from church is people like you avoiding the real questions while trying to look like you're perfect and sin free when we all know no one is without sin.


----------



## yanceybm

If someone wants to drink a beer, then that is them.  Let them enjoy it and get the pleasure from it.  Some people only get to enjoy few things in this life.  If however; there is a question in your heart about whether or not "YOU" should drink beer, then leave it alone and stay away from it!  If there is a question about anything in your heart whether its right or wrong, then don't do it.


----------



## chiefsquirrel83

apoint said:


> As I said, I offer scripture. That is my direct answer.



even if you try to interpret the Bible it doesn't make you right. everyone interprets the Bible differently. 

It seems that some one here only know how to copy and paste and not use a keyboad


----------



## Ronnie T

apoint said:


> Then Im sorry, I must be misinterpreting Mathew24:49-51



I don't know if you're misinterpreting that verse but I do think you're trying to use it in a way that it wasn't intended.

That verse is not condemning someone who drinks an alcoholic beverage.
If it is, then all the apostles, and even Jesus, are hurt by its words.

But the drunkard is a different story.

*1 Corinthians 6:9-11*9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God?....Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed....... .

And where is the line drawn?  Who is the sober, responsible, Christian?  And who is Christian who drinks it for the wrong purpose and in the wrong location and in the wrong company.
As I see it, it isn't the beer, it's the attempt at straddling the fence.  The "living on the edge".

I use to drink.  Years and years ago.  It did nothing good for my relationship with God.  It didn't draw me nearer to Him.  I never brought anyone to Christ while I was drinking with them.  I was never a good example while I drank.

Drinking a beer after mowing the grass might be an okay thing to do.
Drinking a beer while watching Auburn whip Alabama might be alright.
But tell me who did that???????????  Just one beer?

A 6pack this afternoon makes you a drunk!

That's all I'm saying guys.
It can be condemned or justified in a million different ways.  The bottom line, as always, is whether or not God is pleased and happy with what you drank during that game this afternoon.

There's a huge difference in drinking wine in the 1st century and drinking a 6pack today.
A difference in the reasons.
A difference in it's impact.


----------



## reezenshooter

WOW.......so

Let me get this straight so far if ur a drinker, fisher, hunter, not a church-goer, tv watcher, someone who has sex, or most of all a dang fat fella, ur a sorry backsliding excuse of a christian and going to burn for it???..did I leave anything out?

Well im a fishing, hunting, etc. etc. , whos cholesterol will probably cause me to keel off before most here, but I'll wait on u guys in heaven. Ill be the one with the(with extra butter), watching u guys argue with God on why I shouldnt be there to worship him.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

Ronnie T said:


> Drinking a beer after mowing the grass might be an okay thing to do.
> Drinking a beer while watching Auburn whip Alabama might be alright.
> But tell me who did that??????????? Just one beer?
> 
> A 6pack this afternoon makes you a drunk!
> 
> That's all I'm saying guys.
> It can be condemned or justified in a million different ways. The bottom line, as always, is whether or not God is pleased and happy with what you drank during that game this afternoon.
> 
> There's a huge difference in drinking wine in the 1st century and drinking a 6pack today.
> A difference in the reasons.
> A difference in it's impact.


 
Not if it's a six pack of Nasty Light, like most UGA fans drink. Now a six pack of Fat Tire will waste you... But then again, at that price, I guarantee you,,,,,,,,,,,,,I only drink one, When the occasion arises that I drink at all.


----------



## vanguard1

chiefsquirrel83 said:


> I knew my question would draw out arrogrance. I forgot, you must be God and Jesus Christ combined into one and condemn all and tell us what our fate is. I am a Christian but remarks like yours are what pushes people away from the Christian fate.



no it draws them to God, PEOPLE WANT TO CHANGE they do not want to keep living a life of sin and pain, they want to be FREE FROM SIN, that is what i preach, that Gods power can change a heart, can set you free , you don,t have to be bound by a bottle or can, you don,t have to be in bondage to a little stick that you light and suck on, we were made in the likeness of ALLMIGHTY GOD, we are to control the earth and all that is in it, not have it control us, spending money on trash that will kill you or someone else, spending money on junk for your flesh instead of spending it to help others, yes that is sin.


----------



## chiefsquirrel83

I am just glad that you are not my preacher or mentor. My preacher helps guide us at church. You tell people their fate which is very wrong.  I am not bound to the bottle but I like to drink on a occassion but that does not make me bound for he**!


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

chiefsquirrel83 said:


> I am just glad that you are not my preacher or mentor. My preacher helps guide us at church. You tell people their fate which is very wrong. I am not bound to the bottle but I like to drink on a occassion but that does not make me bound for he**!


 
I guess I'm doomed then, based solely on my avatar...


----------



## apoint

Ronnie T said:


> I don't know if you're misinterpreting that verse but I do think you're trying to use it in a way that it wasn't intended.
> 
> That verse is not condemning someone who drinks an alcoholic beverage.
> If it is, then all the apostles, and even Jesus, are hurt by its words.
> 
> But the drunkard is a different story.
> 
> *1 Corinthians 6:9-11*9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God?....Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed....... .
> 
> And where is the line drawn?  Who is the sober, responsible, Christian?  And who is Christian who drinks it for the wrong purpose and in the wrong location and in the wrong company.
> As I see it, it isn't the beer, it's the attempt at straddling the fence.  The "living on the edge".
> 
> I use to drink.  Years and years ago.  It did nothing good for my relationship with God.  It didn't draw me nearer to Him.  I never brought anyone to Christ while I was drinking with them.  I was never a good example while I drank.
> 
> Drinking a beer after mowing the grass might be an okay thing to do.
> Drinking a beer while watching Auburn whip Alabama might be alright.
> But tell me who did that???????????  Just one beer?
> 
> A 6pack this afternoon makes you a drunk!
> 
> That's all I'm saying guys.
> It can be condemned or justified in a million different ways.  The bottom line, as always, is whether or not God is pleased and happy with what you drank during that game this afternoon.
> 
> There's a huge difference in drinking wine in the 1st century and drinking a 6pack today.
> A difference in the reasons.
> A difference in it's impact.



Ronnie we are on the very same page. Your explanation is exactly as I have been stating. I have been known to drink A beer after working in the yard on these hot summer days. It is very rare for me to buy or drink any alcohol and you will never see me drunk.


----------



## apoint

chiefsquirrel83 said:


> even if you try to interpret the Bible it doesn't make you right. everyone interprets the Bible diffrently.
> 
> It seems that some one here only know how to copy and paste and not use a keyboad




If you know this, then you must be talking about yourself.


----------



## 270 guy

apoint said:


> Ronnie we are on the very same page. Your explanation is exactly as I have been stating. I have been known to drink A beer after working in the yard on these hot summer days. It is very rare for me to buy or drink any alcohol and you will never see me drunk.



So in one post you tell people they will have to ask forgivness for there sins of drinking and yet another post admit you drink yourself! LOL kind of like the pot calling the kettle black isn't it? 

You still didn't answer my question but after reading this it doesn't need answering you did so in a round about way LOL.


----------



## chiefsquirrel83

My Bible is my book and guide to life. Not a weapon to attack others and to tell them where they are going and what they should and should and should not do. On that note, I am off to church, then to Jeffery's for wings and a tall cold Yuengling watching the Falcons!


----------



## Israel

Woodsman69 said:


> According to scripture it is impossible for Jesus to have ever drank alchohol to do so would have been a sin and the word tells us that he was without sin. The wine Jesus provided at the marriage feast was indeed grape juice and not alchohol. Christians who drink booze are either backslid or not real born again believers.



OK.
You have helped me to be free of something it has taken years to come to.
I couldn't actually care less who believes I am a christian.
In fact, I will diligently seek now to not be labeled such.
Jesus is Lord.


----------



## apoint

270 guy said:


> So in one post you tell people they will have to ask forgivness for there sins of drinking and yet another post admit you drink yourself! LOL kind of like the pot calling the kettle black isn't it?
> 
> You still didn't answer my question but after reading this it doesn't need answering you did so in a round about way LOL.



 when you learn how to read my answer let me know because you are either confused or twisting my words, probably both.


----------



## 270 guy

Israel said:


> OK.
> You have helped me to be free of something it has taken years to come to.
> I couldn't actually care less who believes I am a christian.
> In fact, I will diligently seek now to not be labeled such.Jesus is Lord.



Can I ask why you wish to not be labled a TRUE Christian? Some on here act like  wannabe Christians by quoting or copy/pasting Bible verses trying to look like there better or above others DO NOT let them discourage you.


----------



## The Original Rooster

The words of Martin Luther come to mind. I think it went something like this; "Wine and women have been the destruction of many a good man, so we must pour out all the wine and kill all the women". 

My final post on this thread.


----------



## 270 guy

apoint said:


> when you learn how to read my answer let me know because you are either confused or twisting my words, probably both.



You keep digging yourself in deeper and deeper don't you? I didn't twist anything you wrote every word yourself.

You answered the question that you keep avoiding. I guess for fear of looking like a sinner like the rest by admitting you drink just like the ones you condemn and say they have to ask for forgivness for there sin of drinking.

 Maybe you should go back and read some of your own post.


----------



## apoint

270 guy said:


> Can I ask why you wish to not be labled a TRUE Christian? Some on here act like  wannabe Christians by quoting or copy/pasting Bible verses trying to look like there better or above others DO NOT let them discourage you.


 
Everyone knows you are the only true christian 270. In all your self righteous tearing down of the scripture posted you ought to make Jesus proud.


----------



## dbodkin

Bar keep.... another round for the house.... hiccup... Double scotch neat for me....


----------



## vanguard1

Romans 13:12-14 (Amplified Bible)
12The night is far gone and the day is almost here. Let us then drop (fling away) the works and deeds of darkness and put on the [full] armor of light.

    13Let us live and conduct ourselves honorably and becomingly as in the [open light of] day, not in reveling (carousing) and drunkenness, not in immorality and debauchery (sensuality and licentiousness), not in quarreling and jealousy.

    14But clothe yourself with the Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah), and make no provision for [indulging] the flesh [put a stop to thinking about the evil cravings of your physical nature] to [gratify its] desires (lusts).


1 Corinthians 15:34 (Amplified Bible)
34Awake [[a]from your drunken stupor and return] to sober sense and your right minds, and sin no more. For some of you have not the knowledge of God [you are utterly and willfully and disgracefully ignorant, and continue to be so, lacking the sense of God's presence and all true knowledge of Him]. I say this to your shame.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

OK, Romans 14:4 Who are you to judge someone's else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. The mark of a Christian is not that he doesn't drink. Lots of non believers don't drink. The true mark of a Christian is an attitude that says, How could I judge you, I too don't deserve grace.


----------



## chiefsquirrel83

I'm back...long day...still got the Scripture posters I see. Today's message in Church was..."Don't run alone." And I see alot that do because they push and turn people away from a loving God by threatening them to he**


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

chiefsquirrel83 said:


> I'm back...long day...still got the Scripture posters I see. Today's message in Church was..."Don't run alone." And I see alot that do because they push and turn people away from a loving God by threatening them to he**


 
We had this problem about a year ago..

You know it's bad when the Athiest do a better job of preaching acceptance than the Christians..Why anyone ever thought the Bible was written to be used as a weapon is beyond me.


----------



## 270 guy

apoint said:


> Everyone knows you are the only true christian 270. In all your self righteous tearing down of the scripture posted you ought to make Jesus proud.



Yeah right just answer the question like you were asked you seem to keep avoiding it.

 I am a true Christian and do make Jesus proud can you say the same? 

As far as self righeous please give me  a break you never saw where I tore down any scripture period. Try again super Christian. 

I'm done with this thread it's going no where.


----------



## vanguard1

Miguel Cervantes said:


> We had this problem about a year ago..
> 
> You know it's bad when the Athiest do a better job of preaching acceptance than the Christians..Why anyone ever thought the Bible was written to be used as a weapon is beyond me.



Jesus never preached acceptance he preached repentance. that is the problem today people think we should accept sin.

2 Timothy 2:19 (King James Version)

 19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity


----------



## FritzMichaels

vanguard1 said:


> Jesus never preached acceptance he preached repentance. that is the problem today people think we should accept sin.
> 
> 2 Timothy 2:19 (King James Version)
> 
> 19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity



Of course Jesus preached acceptance. Remember, he told the pharisees that they were a brood of vipers and were going to heJJ... dont you remember?


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

vanguard1 said:


> Jesus never preached acceptance he preached repentance. that is the problem today people think we should accept sin.
> 
> 2 Timothy 2:19 (King James Version)
> 
> 19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity


 
I was speaking of acceptance of people, not sin. Their sin is between them and the Lord, not them and you. Yet so many wanna be self gratifying christians want to take on the role of saving the world, instead of merely; #1 loving people for who and what they are, then; #2 gently guiding them in the direction of salvation primarily by living an exemplary life and not by bludgeoning them to death with the bible or scripture.

You accomplish nothing towards the Great Commission if your tactics work more for the enemy than for the Lord by driving more people away from the light, than actually leading them to it.

If more Christians would only remove their self indulgent "right to judge" that they somehow feel appointed to, and rather merely follow the "last commandment" and let their life be the guiding factor in leading others to salvation then this world as a whole would be a better place.

The biggest detrimental factor working against Christianity and in favor of Satan's plan is not alcohol, drugs, sex, etc. etc. etc. It is unqualified, misguided, and in some cases, self appointed ministers that teach their followers habits and tactics that are damaging to the doctrine and purpose of Jesus even being put on this earth in the first place.

Any man or woman that considers these pearls of advice as attacks, or views the person giving them as misguided, and instead consider themselves righteous in their views and tactics simply based on their ability to use the scripture as a retort, or even worse, a weapon have completely missed the boat on what Jesus intention for life moving forward after his sacrifice was to be about. If they are void of any since of conviction from all of the push back then I would submit they may be one of the more heineous sinners in their arrogant attitude towards their personal role as a 'savior' and less in tune with what Jesus really wishes them to do by setting a living example.

Y'all have fun with this thread, it is at the very least, a good source of humor.


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## vanguard1

1 Corinthians 5:11 (King James Version)

 11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

I am just tired of people saying they are christians and living a life that brings shame to my Lord, we had a guest pastor yesterday that preached on sin and living a holy life, and he told about how he went to the mall with his wife to buy clothes , well one of the salesmen was clearly gay so he wittnessed to him only to find out this guy thinks hes a christian allready. so what are we to do say its ok you can be gay and a christian? God forbid.
Ezekiel 3:17-21 (King James Version)

 17Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. 

 18When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 

 19Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. 

 20Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 

 21Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.


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## vanguard1

FritzMichaels said:


> Of course Jesus preached acceptance. Remember, he told the pharisees that they were a brood of vipers and were going to heJJ... dont you remember?



oh i forgot


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## Miguel Cervantes

vanguard1 said:


> 1 Corinthians 5:11 (King James Version)
> 
> 11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.


 

We can play the scripture copy and paste game all day long. And for every scripture there is one to counter it, especially since (when used as a weapon in debate or arguement, all are taken out of context)

So I will submit the one and only scripture that trumps all others and leave you to your folly; (while your at it, it would serve you wise to study the etymology of the word folly)

*Matthew 22:36-40 *

*<SUP id=en-NIV-23909 class=versenum>36</SUP> “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” *

<SUP id=en-NIV-23910 class=versenum>*37*</SUP> *Jesus* replied: “‘Love the *Lord* your *God* with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. <SUP id=en-NIV-23911 class=versenum>*38*</SUP> This is the first and greatest commandment. <SUP id=en-NIV-23912 class=versenum>*39*</SUP> And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. <SUP id=en-NIV-23913 class=versenum>*40*</SUP> *All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”*


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## vanguard1

you can love someone without accepting thier sin. I love you enough to warn you of the danger you are in with ALCOHOL
20Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 

21Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul. 
__________________


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## chiefsquirrel83

copy paste....copy paste....copy paste.....copy paste!!!


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## vanguard1

yes the word, the word, the word. it is written.


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## chiefsquirrel83

vanguard1 said:


> yes the word, the word, the word. it is written.



but only you can interpret it...no one else. All other's are wrong and you are right! If you do not interpret the Bible the way Vanguard does you are going to be spending eternity in a fire bath!!!


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## Ronnie T

Come on, admit it, you never thought the shallow question of this thread would have gone on for 6 pages did you?


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## chiefsquirrel83

i think the problem is that some people do not realize that Christianity is a belief that is followed by many different denominations and don't seem to realize people interpret the Bible differently. The problem is that there are a couple of folks in this thread who are scared to answer a question as asked instead they copy and post scripture and tell others they are going to he**. I drink beer, wine, etc. and occassionally catch a buzz and was told by a point in #243 that there is a place in the "smoking section" for me. Quite arrogant and un-Christian like response if you ask me.


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## apoint

Ronnie T said:


> Come on, admit it, you never thought the shallow question of this thread would have gone on for 6 pages did you?



========================================

As long as Mr squirrel is deliriously going to defend his drinking by calling everyone else sinners to make hiself look OK. This could make it to page 666.
 Come on now everybody, in unison, lets say we are all sinners, so we can wrap this baby up once and for all.

    WE  ARE  ALL  SINNERS

            Turn out the lights please............


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## Ronnie T

You Are All Sinners.
I mean, We are all sinners.  Especially me.


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## apoint

Ronnie T said:


> You Are All Sinners.
> I mean, We are all sinners.  Especially me.



Hallelujah,Hallelujah,-------,---------,----------.
  I feel better already. Confession is good for the soul.


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## dawg2

Ronnie T said:


> Come on, admit it, you never thought the shallow question of this thread would have gone on for 6 pages did you?



HOLYcow...


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## apoint

dawg2 said:


> HOLYcow...



 And your post #301 Lets celebrate


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## ronpasley

is this one done yet? and why is a cow HOLY?


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## Miguel Cervantes

ronpasley said:


> is this one done yet? and why is a cow HOLY?


 
He's a Budhist.....


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## chiefsquirrel83

apoint after the "mr. Squirrel" comment...you are officially a Hypocrite
you did say I belong in the smoking section(aka He**) because I like to catch a buzz.....   Thank God I know when to ask for forgiveness and can accept people for who they are. I at least try to guide somone before I condemn someone! I'd rather teach than tell a person what to do! I'd rather have fun rather than be lonely! I am married to a wonderful wife, enjoy the outdoors, love my God and Jesus Christ, and love to have a good time! I will never tell someone they are going to He** for what they believe in or how they act! If you accept Jesus as your savior then you shall be saved. JUST DON'T TELL ME WHERE I AM GOING TO SPEND MY ETERNITY IF YOU DON'T KNOW ME!   I am officially done with this thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! by the way 270 and Miguel Thank you and God Bless!!!!


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## apoint

chiefsquirrel83 said:


> apoint after the "mr. Squirrel" comment...you are officially a Hypocrite
> you did say I belong in the smoking sections.....



Ok, you dont have to go to the smoking section, I take it back, My bad. How do you like my Dog? Hes not a hypocrite.


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## chiefsquirrel83

apoint said:


> Ok, you dont have to go to the smoking section, I take it back, My bad. How do you like my Dog? Hes not a hypocrite.



 ok i'm not done with the thread...too bad we do not have a dog's mentality. Dog's only know love and obedience unlike most humans(most agressiveness in Dogs comes from the protection of their owners) by the way...my dog can pound some natty's back...just sayin'


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## apoint

Well its not a sin for a dog to have a beer. But my greyhound is still in training so he only gets a half beer.
 I just saved him from the racetrack 2 weeks ago. He is a champion.


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## vanguard1

chiefsquirrel83 said:


> apoint after the "mr. Squirrel" comment...you are officially a Hypocrite
> you did say I belong in the smoking section(aka He**) because I like to catch a buzz.....   Thank God I know when to ask for forgiveness and can accept people for who they are. I at least try to guide somone before I condemn someone! I'd rather teach than tell a person what to do! I'd rather have fun rather than be lonely! I am married to a wonderful wife, enjoy the outdoors, love my God and Jesus Christ, and love to have a good time! I will never tell someone they are going to He** for what they believe in or how they act! If you accept Jesus as your savior then you shall be saved. JUST DON'T TELL ME WHERE I AM GOING TO SPEND MY ETERNITY IF YOU DON'T KNOW ME!   I am officially done with this thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! by the way 270 and Miguel Thank you and God Bless!!!!



i dont think anyone said you were goin to he11 , but you are giving a bad wittness for the Lord, and causing others to fall ,you admit to drinking to get a buzz, a better word is high. so God is not enough for you, you have a need in your life that only God can fill, I pray you open your heart to him and let him get you high. and brother i have been there i drank for over 22 years and just lately i have learned to go to God for my peace and not the bottle,


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## apoint

chiefsquirrel83 said:


> apoint after the "mr. Squirrel" comment...you are officially a Hypocrite
> you did say I belong in the smoking section(aka He**) because I like to catch a buzz.....   Thank God I know when to ask for forgiveness and can accept people for who they are. I at least try to guide somone before I condemn someone! I'd rather teach than tell a person what to do! I'd rather have fun rather than be lonely! I am married to a wonderful wife, enjoy the outdoors, love my God and Jesus Christ, and love to have a good time! I will never tell someone they are going to He** for what they believe in or how they act! If you accept Jesus as your savior then you shall be saved. JUST DON'T TELL ME WHERE I AM GOING TO SPEND MY ETERNITY IF YOU DON'T KNOW ME!   I am officially done with this thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! by the way 270 and Miguel Thank you and God Bless!!!!



 Glad to be of service, come back again when you can stay longer..


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