# Point ID



## gb1 (Oct 13, 2015)

Top row found several years ago bottom two rows found this past weekend . Dont know much about them so any info would be greatly appreciated


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 13, 2015)

What I would call them here:

Top row: Morrow Mountain type 1, probably Savannah River with broken stem, Broken tip of a point.

Middle Row: Savannah River, Stanley, Morrow Mountain, Morrow Mountain, Maybe Halifax, Guilford or Woodland teardrop.

Bottom row: Can't tell from the pic but looks very interesting, Guilford or a Woodland teardrop, ?, Bolen, US Quarter. 

Nice finds! Can you get a close-up pic of that left one on the bottom row from a couple different angles?


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## gb1 (Oct 13, 2015)

*point ID*

Here are some close ups of the bottom left point


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## DCHunter (Oct 13, 2015)

NCHillbilly said:


> What I would call them here:
> 
> Top row: Morrow Mountain type 1, probably Savannah River with broken stem, Broken tip of a point.
> 
> ...



What is the difference between the Morrow Mountain and Woodland teartop?


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 13, 2015)

If those are shots of both sides of that point, I'd be 95% sure that you have found the holy grail of points-a fluted Clovis from about 10,000-15,000 years ago! I'd love to take a look at that one in person to check for basal grinding and such! 

The Morrow Mountain was a mid-Archaic (5,000-6000 BC) contracting stem point, likely an atlatl dart point. The Woodland teardrop is a much newer point that may have been used as an arrowhead, and is usually crudely made, with a round base.


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## gb1 (Oct 13, 2015)

Those pictures were only from one side here is the other side. I was kinda on the same page as you but I really dont know. I'm in chattanooga if youre gonna be over this way hit me up you are more than welcome to look at if you want.


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## Nicodemus (Oct 13, 2015)

The flaking looks Paleo. It "doesn`t" look ground, but it`s hard to tell from a picture. If it is, I`d say you got something there....


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 13, 2015)

Nicodemus said:


> The flaking looks Paleo. It "doesn`t" look ground, but it`s hard to tell from a picture. If it is, I`d say you got something there....



Yep. I'm thinking maybe Clovis that was fluted one side, but not finished up afterwards. I have a bunch of them in my debitage pile that look much like that-flute on one side, but a third of the tip gone from endshock while taking the first flute. I'd say sharpening, then grinding, were the last parts of the process.


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## Bow Only (Oct 13, 2015)

Not sure what my opinion means, but I'm afraid that is not a Paleo point.  It is definitely not ground, does not have paleo style lateral flaking, is not robust enough, and doesn't have the correct patina.  It is however an excellent point and congrats on finding it.  Any point is a good point and one that makes us all think is even better.  Just my opinion.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 13, 2015)

Bow Only said:


> Not sure what my opinion means, but I'm afraid that is not a Paleo point.  It is definitely not ground, does not have paleo style lateral flaking, is not robust enough, and doesn't have the correct patina.  It is however an excellent point and congrats on finding it.  Any point is a good point and one that makes us all think is even better.  Just my opinion.



I respect your opinion a lot. What do you think of my theory of an unfinished Clovis that was discarded after losing the point to endshock while fluting the first side? Flintknapping for a couple decades has made me look a lot closer at points I find, and I find it easier to speculate on cause and effect. It doesn't have the edge-to-edge Paleo-style percussion that is common on the western Clovis points, but then, a lot of Eastern Clovis points don't, especially smaller ones. The back-side view has flaked-to-centerline percussion that I've seen on a lot of eastern Clovis points, which helps to set up a ridge to facilitate fluting, and like I always do, looks like the maker tried to flute the worst side first. 

It is made from the best regional material carried for a long ways, that butterscotch Flint River chert, which fits the Paleo profile; and grinding was probably the last stage of the process done after the point was finished and sharpened, and patina doesn't always develop unless a point is exposed to the elements for a long period of time. I've got several plowed up Palmers, Hardaways, and a Dalton I've found that aren't far outside the Paleo period that have no patina whatsoever, and are still very sharp. And a few that are patina-ed on the top side, but not on the side that was touching the soil. Plus, that flake scar looks to me like a flute from a prepared nipple instead of a random basal thinning flake. I will agree that it is small for a Clovis. Hard to say for sure, especially from a pic.


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## Nicodemus (Oct 13, 2015)

Something else to keep in mind about patina. How much effect does fertilizer have on chert? Points and tools found in heavily fertilized agricultural fields seem to have the heaviest patina on them. At least down here in south central and southwest Georgia. Get in the woods off these fields in creek beds and washouts, and they are generally in much better shape. Some literally in pristine condition.

Make for a good discussion.


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## gb1 (Oct 13, 2015)

Just a little bit about the site. It's only been exposed maybe a month. It was heavily wooded before with mature hardwood. The point was found on a knob at the intersection of a somewhat major creek and a feeder creek. I don't know if that helps any. Also this point was found just south of Atlanta.  I will say  I could have filled up a 5 gallon bucket with broken bases and flakes in the roughly 6 hours I spent on the place.  The strange thing is that's the only thing I found that was flint or chert which ever you like to call it. There were some flint flakes but not much.  It was by far the best place I've ever been on.


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## Bow Only (Oct 13, 2015)

NCHillbilly said:


> I respect your opinion a lot. What do you think of my theory of an unfinished Clovis that was discarded after losing the point to endshock while fluting the first side? Flintknapping for a couple decades has made me look a lot closer at points I find, and I find it easier to speculate on cause and effect. It doesn't have the edge-to-edge Paleo-style percussion that is common on the western Clovis points, but then, a lot of Eastern Clovis points don't, especially smaller ones. The back-side view has flaked-to-centerline percussion that I've seen on a lot of eastern Clovis points, which helps to set up a ridge to facilitate fluting, and like I always do, looks like the maker tried to flute the worst side first.
> 
> It is made from the best regional material carried for a long ways, that butterscotch Flint River chert, which fits the Paleo profile; and grinding was probably the last stage of the process done after the point was finished and sharpened, and patina doesn't always develop unless a point is exposed to the elements for a long period of time. I've got several plowed up Palmers, Hardaways, and a Dalton I've found that aren't far outside the Paleo period that have no patina whatsoever, and are still very sharp. And a few that are patina-ed on the top side, but not on the side that was touching the soil. Plus, that flake scar looks to me like a flute from a prepared nipple instead of a random basal thinning flake. I will agree that it is small for a Clovis. Hard to say for sure, especially from a pic.




I always value you knappers opinion.  You can see things that I can't because of what you do.  Your theory is one that is plausible, but this one just doesn't have Clovis flaking.  It's too thin, not a heavier blade, and the edge work is not Paleo.  I really can't say why it's not other than it's not.  Some things you just know.  With that being said, I've been wrong before, just don't tell my wife.


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## g0nef1sshn (Oct 14, 2015)

I know nothing of what you guys talk about, and have never foound or looked for a point. But reading your discussions and different views points and experience is always interesting in this forum. I like seeing the finds and hearing the purposed history and age on these artifacts. Keep it up, im always enjoying the story!


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## Son (Oct 14, 2015)

I don't know much about this stuff except, quartz is sometimes very difficult to identify as to type, especially if exhausted in form. I'm with Bow on the small chert point, looks woodland to me. What looks like a flute, just happens to be there. Seen a few like that. With the quartz, i see what appears to be a couple Kirks, a bunch of Montgomery tear drop points and the rest are what ever one wants to guess them as. Keep in mind, it depends on who's book you look in, and the location where found. Lots of overlapping can be found in typing by various collectors.


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## gb1 (Oct 14, 2015)

Hey I appreciate every one who gave an opinion and respect all the opinions given.  That little point got more attention than I expected. As for what it would be officially called I have no ideal. When I did some research it looks like clovis to me. I usually don't ever even research the points I find but my first impression when I picked it up was that looks like a clovis. Of course as far as I can remember I've only seen pictures of a clovis point so I can't say I really know what one looks like. But it was great to read the diffrent opinions and gain a little knowledge with this post so thanks again.


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## Bow Only (Oct 14, 2015)

gb1 said:


> Hey I appreciate every one who gave an opinion and respect all the opinions given.  That little point got more attention than I expected. As for what it would be officially called I have no ideal. When I did some research it looks like clovis to me. I usually don't ever even research the points I find but my first impression when I picked it up was that looks like a clovis. Of course as far as I can remember I've only seen pictures of a clovis point so I can't say I really know what one looks like. But it was great to read the diffrent opinions and gain a little knowledge with this post so thanks again.



Son may be the best typologist in the Southeastern U.S. and I'd like to think I'm decent at it.  If we agree on one, odds are heavy that is what it is.  No one can ever be 100% right, so does anyone ever know?  Just as a reference, I've found thousands of Woodland points, I've never found a Clovis.  Keep looking and finding, that is what makes this hobby fun.


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## Nicodemus (Oct 14, 2015)

Bow Only said:


> Son may be the best typologist in the Southeastern U.S. and I'd like to think I'm decent at it.  If we agree on one, odds are heavy that is what it is.  No one can ever be 100% right, so does anyone ever know?  Just as a reference, I've found thousands of Woodland points, I've never found a Clovis.  Keep looking and finding, that is what makes this hobby fun.





I`ve been artifact hunting for 56 years and I`ve never found even a broken piece of a Clovis.


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## Bow Only (Oct 15, 2015)

Nicodemus said:


> I`ve been artifact hunting for 56 years and I`ve never found even a broken piece of a Clovis.



I think I'm the only one who knows about a Paleo site in FL.   When I retire, I may try to buy that land just to get deep in that dirt.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 15, 2015)

Never found a true Paleo myself, either. Closest I'm came are a few Hardaways and a Dalton.


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## rydert (Oct 15, 2015)

This was a great read.....nice finds gb1


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## White Horse (Oct 16, 2015)

Nicodemus said:


> I`ve been artifact hunting for 56 years and I`ve never found even a broken piece of a Clovis.



No, me either, but I was with a friend when he found a Clovis, in 1974 right next to the Park Mound in Troup County. Park Mound has been under West Point Reservoir since 1975.

It was a bit strange in a way to find a Paleo point next to a mound from a more recent period, but it shows how long that site was used.

My buddy couldn't find that point amongst his stuff any more the last time I asked him about it. I tried to impress upon him how rare it is, but I'm not sure I got that across.


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