# If God has forgiven us of our sins, does he still punish us for our sins?



## Artfuldodger (Dec 10, 2019)

We know that God has forgiven us of our sins that would have sent us to eternal death or He11. But does he still punish his children for their sins?


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## NE GA Pappy (Dec 10, 2019)

all choices we make have consequences.  Just because we are forgiven doesn't mean the consequences are removed.

Imagine a little girl get hold of a pair of scissors and butchers her hair.  The mother is livid because the girl was told again and again not to play with scissors.  The child is sorry for the behavior, and is forgiven... but her hair doesn't magically reappear.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 10, 2019)

NE GA Pappy said:


> all choices we make have consequences.  Just because we are forgiven doesn't mean the consequences are removed.
> 
> Imagine a little girl get hold of a pair of scissors and butchers her hair.  The mother is livid because the girl was told again and again not to play with scissors.  The child is sorry for the behavior, and is forgiven... but her hair doesn't magically reappear.



In reference to God though, exactly how does he punish his Children for their sins other than not for eternal death? I mean is there some scripture such as God saying you don't have to worry about your sins sending you to he!! but because you were jealous last week, you're not getting the raise you want.

I realize that's a bit overboard or extreme but is it more than just suffering from the consequences  of our actions?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 10, 2019)

In simpler terms, suffering from our consequences  may be the result of free will.  God punishing us for a certain sin isn't.


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## Israel (Dec 11, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> In simpler terms, suffering from our consequences  may be the result of free will.  God punishing us for a certain sin isn't.



I can't get very far away from what you said in the other thread...for to me it appears the very heart of the matter:



> I would think that either God has forgiven us of our sins or he hasn't.



For, not only are we told this...we are told "how" God is in this. And I find two very pressing considerations. God knows how many more He sees "pressing" (into which pressure He has entered through Christ to our relief in, and by, His enlightening), but at least two:

1. Is there ever any benefit to believing God "in part"? (which has a very distinct corollary) Has God rationed...does God _ration_...Christ to us?

2. How does a man know anything of God, especially in this matter of His disposition of sin? For there seems to me, no matter how much any man, either  presently in the world, or writing from eons ago may express himself in this regard, every hearer is so pressed to "know for himself" whether these things be true.

These two are not unrelated and may actually be more singular than I yet know or express.

The first question of believing God "in part" goes to this matter mentioned of " 'how' God is in this". For God not has not only expressed the matter of forgiving His people their sins...but this, no less:

For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

We might ask then...if there be any claim of faith to the first part...is there any lacking of faith "for" the seeming second? Perhaps any "on the fence" response is more indicative that perhaps, what we may assume:


"oh, my faith is quite complete to the first part" 

is really just an unknowing confession of_ unbelief in toto._ In other words...the fault itself _is found _in any thinking that there is left to us a "believing God in part".

Against whom do we find ourselves arguing, if not our very own selves? Opposing ourselves. For who amongst us, if we hold (or seek to) to the testimony of Jesus Christ...would not be loathe to say 

"Jesus Christ has been given 'in part' "?

Do we not see...(unless we do not see?) there has been no withholding? No "yes and no" on God's part toward us...having given _the all_ in Christ at which there can only be a right marveling? 

If the matter of "How much is given?" is not being turned in us to "How much is given!"...well here I am reminded of Paul's words of having no dominion over the faith of any...but merely a helper of joy.

These matter of "how we are" to our deepest dispositions, appearing now before him with whom we have to do, who sees all thoughts and intents of heart, are these disclosings to be to our health...or shame? This question is no less fundamental than your own consideration, which, if phrased only slightly differently is really the question:

"has God forgiven us our sins...or hasn't He?" 

And...if so...does He no less "do it" after the manner He says? Willing Himself to not remember?




> I would think that either God has forgiven us of our sins or he hasn't.



In the silliest of senses, but I believe that such reduction to silliness for me has often proved a help:

"Is God just storing up ammo?"

Is that the "end" of Jesus unyielding and unremitting gaze upon me, and into me, in me? By the spirit whom searches out all things...even the deep things of a man? Or...despite how it may "feel" at times...is there something else actually going on? A teaching? A loving instruction to submission...where only joy is found...even if  (might it even be especially when!) it provokes my unalloyed confession, "Oh, sorry, I thought you were just like me...poking around looking for ammo!"

No...no...not at all.

That "no" is where all my joy is discovered. Thanks be to God someone "not like me" is being disclosed...revealed, not to the end of shaming by the firmest and most absolute "No" (those whom I love I rebuke and chasten)...but to the end that light's joy is seen!

What a relief to a thing that has operated all in "furtivity"...how much effort, struggle, endless labors and striving...of such unyielding and crushing burden, has been devoted to the hiding of a thing!

Sobriety makes me gladly confess, I am glad I have been so wrong about whom God is! "How" He is. Always the "so much more" that anything I may think I have _already _apprehended...in that light...comes to appear as nothing...nothing at all! This work is so thorough I do not see how any man "in time" would not clearly see...it is eternal.

And that is "how" the second question appears to me in answer. Something comes, is coming, from a place where_ time has not instructed_. Where time cannot instruct. Someone comes. Someone has come to man in all his wrongness...to give him joy, there.

"In time" this does not square...being wrong...is all that must be resisted, striven against, so thoroughly identified as all that is for the _fight against_...that by it is the means by which every man is bidden, any man may hope to show himself...right! So much so...we don't even know how much we are wedded to it in the deepest devotion. We have had desire...to see what's wrong.

Until...it is us. (And how much the more then is the Lord's appearing there, in that place with "oh...that? I have so thoroughly taken care of it that it merits no attention nor effort to the hiding...")

Faith is given...not merely for the bearing of it...but the rejoicing in it. How right...the Lord is. We have at last been given to see...what is right. What right...is. Who, right is.

A thing which only saw "what is wrong"...has worked furiously, feverishly, _almost endlessly_ (ahhh, but how he is now shown outstripped!) to keep us from ever seeing beyond the what is wrong, has been defeated. He has little time. Always did...have little time. His fury displays it. Limit, limit, limit.

He even still works in fury whose breezy winds of storm may still be sensed "in spirit" seeking to influence..."what's the limit to forgiveness...find it...and find where forgiving would itself be now wrong. " Oh, but he is clever and crafty! Find out where such a thing is, where being "too merciful" can be seen!

Yeah...he wants us to seek a place...and stay there. Little do we know until we do...that if finding "for others", the place where no mercy seems to us could ever be "deserved"...he has us already in his capture of minding. We are simply exploring he11. We can see no mercy if based thus.

Thanks be to God for the One who takes captivity...captive.

You brothers may have little inkling as to how great a mercy you appear to me. You (but really not only you...but Christ through you) compel me to consider things in a light of which I am desperately in need.

I am reminded there's a fire coming...a blazing revelation, an irresistible and unutterably heated display of the true One...and how my storing of certain things needs rebuke...needs contradiction...needs a better tending in my house.

It is very much the Lord reminding me..."I see you have some old ammo kept around...won't do your house any good at all when the fire rolls through...chuck it, and don't miss it...be ready."


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## Cmp1 (Dec 11, 2019)

I'm certainly no expert, but I don't believe God punishes anyone,he's a loving God,,,,


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 11, 2019)

Cmp1 said:


> I'm certainly no expert, but I don't believe God punishes anyone,he's a loving God,,,,


Does he withhold blessings? Seems to remind me of Prosperity Preachers. It does seem a bit off though. If I've been forgiven of my sins, then I would think I've been forgiven of my sins.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 11, 2019)

Maybe I've only been forgiven of my sins as far as the ultimate punishment of death, but I'm still being punished for committing them in today's world. Hard to explain exactly. Christian Karma maybe.

Maybe Jesus only died for our eternal punishment.


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## Cmp1 (Dec 11, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> Does he withhold blessings? Seems to remind me of Prosperity Preachers. It does seem a bit off though. If I've been forgiven of my sins, then I would think I've been forgiven of my sins.


IMO,,,,if God withheld blessings,wouldn't that be considered a punishment?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 11, 2019)

I can't see God saying "look at Art, he has lust and jealously in his heart. I think I'll make his wife have an affair to punish him."


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## Cmp1 (Dec 11, 2019)

We're human,we all sin,,,,I just try to keep it to a minimum,,,,


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 11, 2019)

Any scripture where God has punished a Christian after the Cross?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 11, 2019)

“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.” (Hebrews 12:5–6) 

So how does God discipline without punishment?


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## Cmp1 (Dec 11, 2019)

I need to go to confession,,,,


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## Israel (Dec 11, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> Any scripture where God has punished a Christian after the Cross?



I consider Ananais and Saphira, but not for what may (even/especially to me) be apparent reason.

Was it punishment? I don't know. What if it were all merely [not merely] God's mercy being worked through them/upon them to a man who would come years later with a not unlike  or unrecognizable disposition...in order to sober him?

God sees all. (Don't foolishly hold any doubt to it)
Be made aware of a disposition to "seem" like you give more than your fellows...or have. And just as importantly...what is yours is yours to dispose of as yours...be careful of trying to seem to make, or be making a sacrifice.

How could such a man, if so sobered...find any fault in the use of those by which he may find sobriety?

Any, or all the places that man may be inclined to "point fingers"...only shows he has not yet learned the lesson.


Do you know what's funny/not funny in this?

Such a man has tried to run this game on his own wife. God alone knows how many times she has been used to remind this man "you are being seen."

"For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save _thy_ husband?"


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## Madman (Dec 11, 2019)

Sin causes separation from the fountain.


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## j_seph (Dec 11, 2019)

yes


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## gordon 2 (Dec 11, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> Any scripture where God has punished a Christian after the Cross?


Yes. Via the Church which is via Paul in this case as in " I am told that a _man_ in _your_ church is _living_ in sin with _his_ stepmother. " But in order to understand this as I do, you have to understand first that the church is an institution with this purpose in mind by God when he formed it. If you don't think that Paul was called by God and ministered to by the Church( as per God's instructions to the Church) to be an agent of The Church globally in his ministry ---- than this does not make sense.

Sin grieves the Spirit and the spirit in a person and can effect the persons and institutions around the sinner. The Church has power to discipline and to minister towards restoration.

It is impossible to discipline a follower, in the days of latter rain, that does not believe that the Church is essential to the economy of one's personal salvation. This is all nebulous and superfluous to the bible alone sects of Christianity. After all... you can jump from worship house to worship house if you don't like the flavors of discipline... and still hold a bible in your hand.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 11, 2019)

gordon 2 said:


> Yes. Via the Church which is via Paul in this case as in " I am told that a _man_ in _your_ church is _living_ in sin with _his_ stepmother. " But in order to understand this as I do, you have to understand first that the church is an institution with this purpose in mind by God when he formed it. If you don't think that Paul was called by God and ministered to by the Church( as per God's instructions to the Church) to be an agent of The Church globally in his ministry ---- than this does not make sense.
> 
> Sin grieves the Spirit and the spirit in a person and can effect the persons and institutions around the sinner. The Church has power to discipline and to minister towards restoration.
> 
> It is impossible to discipline a follower, in the days of latter rain, that does not believe that the Church is essential to the economy of one's personal salvation. This is all nebulous and superfluous to the bible alone sects of Christianity. After all... you can jump from worship house to worship house if you don't like the flavors of discipline... and still hold a bible in your hand.



Paul passes judgement;
hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

So in that scenario I guess God is punishing the man by using Satan? To somehow destroy his flesh so that his spirit may be saved.

That's way over my head.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 11, 2019)

Recall what Paul says about the flesh and the spirit of  a Christian in the context of discipline... Do you recall how Job was tested....? He was tested by Satin... Recall how God disciplined Israel.  Think of the wrath of God. Think of the judgement in effect of the latter rain times. Think of the sins of the father visited on the sons....

Paul in his own way is saying hand this man to discipline---the way God does it.

It is not over your head, your head might be tired.

And so Paul is passing judgement... as he has every right to. The sentence is God's.


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## Israel (Dec 12, 2019)

Reminds me of this discussion:


http://forum.gon.com/threads/do-you-have-apostles-in-your-church.184657/


 and some of this:



> I would be hard pressed to not see that American Christians know to be under authority. That the authority rests from the individual's personal relationship with his maker, the bible and the local church with notions of A City on the Hill. These are features of the American Church.
> 
> Also the echo's of Thomas Pain's letters and Benjamin Franklin's ideas on politics and liberty were influenced by the pamphleteers, and local ( English) independent church ministers who were very vocal dissenters back in England and dissenters due also to their understanding of Christian values vs inequality in their political society ( in England and all of Europe). They were at odds with the political oligarchy of their times. They lived social and political injustice ---where the church was not always separated from the economic and social life ( politics and justice) of the people . They searched and studied scripture for a remedy--- and instilled into politics and society their remedies.
> 
> ...


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## buckpasser (Dec 15, 2019)

I had an old uncle who was a pastor. He said “God bops his children on the head when they do wrong and you’ll know if he does”. 

I believe thats true and the Holy Spirit has “chastised” me before. I’ve never shared the following before and some my find it ridiculous, but it’s true. 

Years ago I disobeyed a conviction and killed a fourth gobbler in Georgia. I wasnt raised that way. There is no excuse for it and I knew it was wrong before I ever pulled the trigger. I asked forgiveness and was granted it. That fall I rattled in a huge trophy buck. I made a poor shot, called in the dog and went on a trail to nowhere. Before we even determined he was gone a voice inside me reminded me of my wrong doing that spring. Some might say it was my imagination. It was not. I knew God was teaching me a lesson and it was clear as day. Lesson learned, and I sheepishly prayed “Thank you”. I felt punished and sad, but also proud to still be one of God’s redeemed.


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## StriperAddict (Dec 16, 2019)

In answer to the original Q, and late to the discussion, the answer is no.

Do the math:  

Sin has only one wage ... death.

Jesus died ... the wage was paid.

If we go around saying God is boppin believers on their head for their stumblings and sins, than the cross is worthless.  Tread lightly here, let's not bring in a form of judgement that God doesn't speak in the scriptures.  In Christ the punishment was totally taken on and paid, and when recieved, the New Creation man is in full view. He grows to know Christ and to let Him live in and thru, where there is no law against the work of His Spirit within.

Sure, there are earthly consequences to sin, obviously. That's a consequence, not a judgement.  God doesn't re-punish, He renews the mind and convinces the child of attitudes and behaviors that do not match up to the child's righteous identity. We admit the thing, we lean and learn from the Comforter, not hardening our heart after sin's deceitfulness, and move on in grace. "See", walking in the Spirit is the norm for God's kids, the fire has been extinguished.


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## Madman (Dec 16, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> We know that God has forgiven us of our sins that would have sent us to eternal death or He11.


You are going to need to flesh this out for me, I'm not sure I am following, If I am I don't agree.



Artfuldodger said:


> But does he still punish his children for their sins?


The only "punishment" is eternal separation from him.  Baptism fixes all sin up to that sacrament, including "original sin".  Repentance sets us back in right relationship.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 16, 2019)

Yes & no answers.  Someone's Holy Spirit notions are off the mark or not properly calibrated and it just might be me. So I pray about it. Nope, I'm right. The others are wrong.


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## buckpasser (Dec 16, 2019)

It’s okay to agree to disagree occasionally. Our opinions matter all of nothing to Gods infinite wisdom anyway.  Limiting what God can and can’t do is not something I dabble in.  The Jews of Christ’s day were into limiting and predicting a bit and it didn’t pan.


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## Madman (Dec 18, 2019)

gordon 2 said:


> It is impossible to discipline a follower, in the days of latter rain, that does not believe that the Church is essential to the economy of one's personal salvation. This is all nebulous and superfluous to the bible alone sects of Christianity. After all... you can jump from worship house to worship house if you don't like the flavors of discipline... and still hold a bible in your hand.


This is painful truth for the Body of Christ, yet truth all the same.


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## Spineyman (Dec 21, 2019)

*Forgiveness and Consequences*


                    After receiving divine mercy, some believers expect the Father to miraculously erase the cost of their sinful choices. When that doesn't happen, they may start to wonder, Did God really forgive me? Does He truly love me if I'm still suffering?                 

January 16, 2015
By Charles F. Stanley 

The apostle Paul wrote, "Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap" (Gal. 6:7). As familiar as we are with this cause-and-effect relationship, there is still some confusion about how it fits with the forgiveness of God.
After receiving divine mercy, some believers expect the Father to miraculously erase the cost of their sinful choices. When that doesn't happen, they may start to wonder, _Did God really forgive me? Does He truly love me if I'm still suffering?_
So the question in their mind is, _Should Christians who have been forgiven by their Creator have to endure the results of their sin?_ The answer is, "Yes, sometimes." Forgiveness and consequences are not opposite ends of a spectrum. Together, they establish an essential part of the Lord's plan for believers.
Forgiveness is _relational._ The Father sent Jesus to make a sacrifice on our behalf, and by so doing reconciled us to Himself. By His mercy alone, we can have communion with the Lord.
On the other hand, consequences are _circumstantial_. The man who drank for many years and developed cirrhosis of the liver knows that his disease has a direct link to his alcohol abuse. The woman who had an affair realizes, deep in her heart, that her ruined marriage was a direct consequence of her sinful choice. The promiscuous person knows his sexually transmitted disease is a result of an immoral lifestyle. God does not often remove consequences like these simply because someone trusts Christ as Savior or confesses sin.
I could go into other illustrations, but perhaps the most compelling one comes from the cross itself. Christ made it clear that the thief dying with him was completely forgiven (Luke 23:39-43). Yet moments later, the man died an excruciating death. His sins had been erased in God's sight, but he suffered the punishment for his crime.
Consequences from sin are not an indication that a person isn't saved or that God is angry with the individual. The Lord frequently allows some painful situations to continue so He can teach us lessons we would otherwise never learn. For example, suffering caused by sin can lead us in quiet desperation to seek God's forgiveness. Very few things motivate us to give Him our undivided attention like being faced with the cost of our wrong choices. When we draw near to the Lord, He reveals how to respond correctly to painful circumstances. Unprecedented spiritual growth will often result.
And even painful consequences do not prevent us from rejoicing in the Lord's gifts of salvation and grace. We all have scars. Their purpose is not to cause us grief as a daily reminder of our sin, but rather to remind us of how gracious and merciful the Lord is. Praise God! He loves us and chooses to work though us despite our past mistakes and wrong choices. People who still bear scars from past sins often become the most effective at leading unbelievers to know Jesus as their Savior.
Our attitude toward negative consequences affects how we relate to our heavenly Father. A negative approach could lead us to become bitter, whereas a positive attitude could bring us to a point of understanding and gratitude for the daily reminders of divine mercy. We can view our scars as monuments to God's grace, or as ongoing punishment. I encourage you to see them as proof of your spiritual healing. If you do, I guarantee that you will change, even when circumstances stay the same. But in that case, your ability to trust God in difficult situations will take on new and exciting dimensions.
Rest assured, sinful decisions have consequences, if not in this life, then in the next. We are blessed, though, because the principle of reaping and sowing works in a positive way as well: "The one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life" (Gal. 6:8). We can sow good seeds that will turn negative situations into positive ones. For instance, I've known couples who started to make wise decisions after suffering the results of poor financial choices. Over time, they experienced the benefit of their right actions.
Don't spend the bulk of your time trying to convince God to remove painful consequences. Try praising Him instead. In His wisdom, the Lord allows these reminders to keep you away from further sin and its effects. As you humble yourself before Him, ask the Father to give you the ability and courage to walk away from sin and toward His almighty arms. Begin "sowing" to please the Spirit rather than your flesh. God may never change your circumstances, but He will renew your strength and change your life.
https://www.intouch.org/Read/forgiveness-and-consequences


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## gemcgrew (Dec 23, 2019)

Anything less than ultimate punishment... is mercy.


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