# Need some advice, dog trainers



## eidson (Dec 18, 2015)

My lab which is a little over a yr old will break on me every time. I trained him myself and have enjoyed working with him almost everyday. I need to know which way will be best for me to teach him not to break on a shot. He is not force fetched,  has never had a E collar of any sort on him. He is a very loyal lab that does very well, what I am doing right now with him is leaving him on a leash while hunting. He has not been hunting but 3 or 4 times and retrieves well. Will he get better in time after he has field time or do I need to start thinking about a E collar.


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## mschlapa (Dec 18, 2015)

First would be a reliable sit command. Sit means sit and don't move until I release you!


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## eidson (Dec 19, 2015)

mschlapa said:


> First would be a reliable sit command. Sit means sit and don't move until I release you!



True. But I trained him to sit as a temp command and stay as a permanent command. He knows the difference but can't hold back the urge to break on a fallen bird. I'm sure he will get better if I continue to use the leash then release but I just can't stand using a leash on him.


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## flatsmaster (Dec 19, 2015)

if u want him to not break u need to train him to sit or stay or whatever command and it's not sometimes it's always that command is given they don't move until u release with there name or tell them ok ... I don't believe he will change this response bc of age ... If he goes when u unleash him he's gonna do that at 6 bc he thinks that's right .... But that's my opinion


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## Joe Overby (Dec 20, 2015)

It's very simple. In training, place the dog in a sit and attach long check cord...have your bird boy walk out 35 or 40 yards...have said bird boy throw a duck. If Fido moves forward correct with "sit" command and a leash jerk. Place dog back in sit and repeat until dog is steady until released. When he's got this down add additional distractions, gunshots, multiple birds, yelling, duck calls...you know, all the stuff that goes on while the ducks are falling...until he proves steady in training. Then, be prepared to enforce in the duck blind.

One simply does not decide to go out and purchase an e collar to steady the dog. The dog needs to understand that sit gets him the reward and its even better if sitting is his idea in the first place. You cannot steady a dog with an e collar, you can only ruin his attitude...

I'd also be careful about steadying a young dog that hasnt been force fetched too much...it can hurt their drive. I don't steady any of mine until they are running reliable cold blinds. You can either teach "go" or "sit"... But you can't teach them both at the same time.


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## eidson (Dec 20, 2015)

Thanks Joe.


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## Scottyhardison (Dec 21, 2015)

Joe Overby said:


> It's very simple. In training, place the dog in a sit and attach long check cord...have your bird boy walk out 35 or 40 yards...have said bird boy throw a duck. If Fido moves forward correct with "sit" command and a leash jerk. Place dog back in sit and repeat until dog is steady until released. When he's got this down add additional distractions, gunshots, multiple birds, yelling, duck calls...you know, all the stuff that goes on while the ducks are falling...until he proves steady in training. Then, be prepared to enforce in the duck blind.
> 
> One simply does not decide to go out and purchase an e collar to steady the dog. The dog needs to understand that sit gets him the reward and its even better if sitting is his idea in the first place. You cannot steady a dog with an e collar, you can only ruin his attitude...
> 
> I'd also be careful about steadying a young dog that hasnt been force fetched too much...it can hurt their drive. I don't steady any of mine until they are running reliable cold blinds. You can either teach "go" or "sit"... But you can't teach them both at the same time.




Agree with everything said here, but would add that it is important while running this drill that every time the dog breaks and requires a correction he is denied the retrieve. Only when "Fido" is perfectly steady does he get the retrieve. 

That being said, I think your putting your cart before the horse trying to steady (or even hunting) the pup before a proper collar conditioning formalizing obedience is done as well as Hold, pile work, T work, patterns, and solid cold blinds are completed. Steadying a dog after he has transitioned to handling is wayyyyyyyy easier on both you and the dog.


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## eidson (Dec 21, 2015)

Scotty, thanks for the info. I have not trained in the hold command but I may end up doing so. He retrieves dove and duck to my hand everytime. He has a huge drive and is eger to please. I have trained him to the whistle and knows his casting drills left right and backs. He listens to his commands and does well with me. This is my second training attempt still have my female she does good as him most of the time. He is a great dog and I don't want to mess him up. I don't know what e collar is other then it's a shocking collar. I  am training him without one and I really want to believe I can do it without having to use one. I will be getting me some more material to read and watch to hopefully avoid set backs. Thx.


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## buzzbaithead57 (Dec 21, 2015)

eidson said:


> Scotty, thanks for the info. I have not trained in the hold command but I may end up doing so. He retrieves dove and duck to my hand everytime. He has a huge drive and is eger to please. I have trained him to the whistle and knows his casting drills left right and backs. He listens to his commands and does well with me. This is my second training attempt still have my female she does good as him most of the time. He is a great dog and I don't want to mess him up. I don't know what e collar is other then it's a shocking collar. I  am training him without one and I really want to believe I can do it without having to use one. I will be getting me some more material to read and watch to hopefully avoid set backs. Thx.




I trained my lab duck/dove dog myself as well. The above comment about using a check cord to steady the dog is right on the money. Also something else to try- if the dog does well with the rope by itself fine, but if it is still breaking early, go to tractor supply or somewhere that has dog stuff and get a training collar.

http://www.huntsmart.com/App_Themes/hs.com/ProductImages/500/52.jpg

Do the same thing you would do with the check cord, but as you apply pressure this time, those spike will sit him down sho nuff. In my experience this has worked near as good as e collar.


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## Joe Overby (Dec 21, 2015)

Evan Graham Smart Work. Open your mind to a force based program. It is sequential and easy to follow.


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## meandmydog (Dec 23, 2015)

Hit every duck you shoot at and it won't be a problem....joke!


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## king killer delete (Dec 23, 2015)

buzzbaithead57 said:


> I trained my lab duck/dove dog myself as well. The above comment about using a check cord to steady the dog is right on the money. Also something else to try- if the dog does well with the rope by itself fine, but if it is still breaking early, go to tractor supply or somewhere that has dog stuff and get a training collar.
> 
> http://www.huntsmart.com/App_Themes/hs.com/ProductImages/500/52.jpg
> 
> Do the same thing you would do with the check cord, but as you apply pressure this time, those spike will sit him down sho nuff. In my experience this has worked near as good as e collar.


 I can see you have never used a collar.  A good collar program is impossible to beat.


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## king killer delete (Dec 23, 2015)

meandmydog said:


> Hit every duck you shoot at and it won't be a problem....joke!


 no you just can't hit them. You got to kill them dead and I hope the current or the tide does not take that bird way


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## buzzbaithead57 (Dec 24, 2015)

king killer delete said:


> I can see you have never used a collar.  A good collar program is impossible to beat.



I do know a little somethin somethin about an e collar program lol- BUT he was saying that he really didn't want to have to use one if didn't have to. I have had many a dog that never saw an e collar that steadied and retrieved just fine. I know what difference the collar makes, but the dog can be trained to do exactly what he needs to do without one. It just takes a few more hunts and little more patience.


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## Joe Overby (Dec 24, 2015)

buzzbaithead57 said:


> I do know a little somethin somethin about an e collar program lol- BUT he was saying that he really didn't want to have to use one if didn't have to. I have had many a dog that never saw an e collar that steadied and retrieved just fine. I know what difference the collar makes, but the dog can be trained to do exactly what he needs to do without one. It just takes a few more hunts and little more patience.


Interesting. Science has shown that you have 4 seconds or less to make a correction or the dog won't correlate the undesirable behavior and the correction given. So please explain how, you would correct a cast refusal at 100 yards in under 4 seconds without an e collar?? Also, please explain how "a few more hunts" teaches the dog what to do in lieu of a formal force based program. Training is done before the hunt begins. To expect a dog with no formal training to just "learn on the job" is unfair to all involved...the dog and other members of the hunting party included. All the patience in the world will not teach good mouth habits, a good water attitude, water force a dog, or build any amount of retrieve reliability in the dog. Only a sequential program utilizing both reward and aversives as consequences for the dogs decisions will do that. Using an e collar simply makes the correction part of behavior modification easier and timely.


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## buzzbaithead57 (Dec 24, 2015)

Joe Overby said:


> Interesting. Science has shown that you have 4 seconds or less to make a correction or the dog won't correlate the undesirable behavior and the correction given. So please explain how, you would correct a cast refusal at 100 yards in under 4 seconds without an e collar?? Also, please explain how "a few more hunts" teaches the dog what to do in lieu of a formal force based program. Training is done before the hunt begins. To expect a dog with no formal training to just "learn on the job" is unfair to all involved...the dog and other members of the hunting party included. All the patience in the world will not teach good mouth habits, a good water attitude, water force a dog, or build any amount of retrieve reliability in the dog. Only a sequential program utilizing both reward and aversives as consequences for the dogs decisions will do that. Using an e collar simply makes the correction part of behavior modification easier and timely.



My goodness guys don't get so defensive. Please realize that I fully understand what the E collar does and the benefits of using them. Your scientifical research doesn't tell me anything I don't already know lol My goodness I wouldn't train a dog without one. 

But my man who started this post CLEARLY typed out that he really wanted to avoid using an e collar so I was just trying to give him some alternate ways to get what he wants done. Back before E collars were even a such thing, we used them old spike collars like I attached in a previous post, and our dogs hunted just fine, retrieved every bird, did what we wanted them to do, and they loved every minute of it (still do). 

And who said anything about "learning on the job"? open your eyes and read what the man is typing chief. It looks like to me based on what was typed that the dog already does a great job hunting and loves retrieving birds. All that was meant by that was the fact that it sounds like his dog is almost "there" and that he just needed a few more hunts (enforcing the steady command) and he will figure it out. If the owner and dog spend as much time together as they should in and out of the woods, the dog will figure it out. They are a lot smarter than what you are giving them credit for.

It doesn't sound like hes training for the dog retrieving Olympics or anything!  Sounds to me like hes already got a GREAT hunting partner who was just having a little trouble sitting still. 

Peace out Chief, enjoy sitting at your computer all day hunting someone to chop their head off. Im headed to the lake


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## gunslinger33 (Dec 24, 2015)

There is also retreivertraining.net which is another forum that might help too


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## gunslinger33 (Dec 24, 2015)

sorry retrievertraining.net


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## eidson (Dec 24, 2015)

I believe a dog can be trained 100% without having to use the E collar. Now being I said that, this is my own dog and I spent alot of time with him he puts just as much in me, he gives me his full attention. Yes, I am new to this but I also am figuring out, I posted this to early because he is already started to get the hang of sitting til released on a mark or blind. I will learn how to use a E collar just not on this dog I am not training him to push him out the door or to collect. Only way he leaves me is death do us part. As far as a 100 yrds go's I haven't never shot a bird that far out I have killed a few at about 70 yds and he has retrieved them well. He has been hunting about 5 times now and he is figuring it out very quick just like I am. It didn't cost me anything and it's not professional but the enjoyment is great.


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## Joe Overby (Dec 25, 2015)

buzzbaithead57 said:


> My goodness guys don't get so defensive. Please realize that I fully understand what the E collar does and the benefits of using them. Your scientifical research doesn't tell me anything I don't already know lol My goodness I wouldn't train a dog without one.
> 
> But my man who started this post CLEARLY typed out that he really wanted to avoid using an e collar so I was just trying to give him some alternate ways to get what he wants done. Back before E collars were even a such thing, we used them old spike collars like I attached in a previous post, and our dogs hunted just fine, retrieved every bird, did what we wanted them to do, and they loved every minute of it (still do).
> 
> ...


Aight sport. YOU are the one who mentioned OJT with your "few more hunts" comment advocating that a training issue be worked out while hunting. Second, I'm glad you were around before e collars...so then with your vast wealth of knowledge you already knew they used to shoot dogs in the butt with a shotgun to teach them to sit in the whistle...did it work?? Yep. Is it the best way?? Nope. Can you train a dog without ff and an e collar?? Yep. Is it the best way?? I'll leave you to figure that one out. As far as sitting by my computer all day I'll leave that one to you, sport. These dogs aren't gonna train themselves and I've got bills to pay... Or I could just take them hunting...apparently they learn all they need to know in the woods...

OP. Sorry your thread got derailed. I laid out the guidelines for steadying your dog via denying the retrieve. You don't need a pinch collar, a choke chain, or an e collar. Simply pick-up the mark, re heel the dog, and do it again. It may take several sessions depending on your dogs level of obedience and level of drive.


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