# Bear hunting...while you still can.



## jerry russell (Oct 7, 2019)

This is a long winded post.  As I write it, I am sitting in a remote mountain valley bowhunting black bear.  If you choose to read it, I hope you can understand that it is not meant to be controversial and is written only with the passion that I have for the Georgia black bear.  If you chose to read it, do your best to do it without the bias of emotion. 
I am not anti-dog hunting in general but I do believe that the Georgia bear population cannot sustain the pressure applied by bring hunted with dogs or baiting. 

Most of what I feel about the uncontrolled dog bear “hunt” has been said on this forum but I can’t help but believe that there is a lack of understanding as to how the recently conducted dog/bear hunts will negatively impact the bear in this state.  It sickens me that they are allowing this uncontrolled slaughter.  Those that understand bear reproductive biology know that the killing of this many bears, especially these high number of pregnant sows, will take many years to recover from. 

While this is really not the place to discuss the full extent of the damage done, it should be noted that the killing of this extreme number of female bears goes FAR beyond the damage done by the  killing of that sow and the two cubs she carries. 
The extreme short and simplified  explanation of this damage could be explained by this comparative example...

A doe whitetail produces twin fawns every year in June. For the sake of argument, let’s say that one of those fawns is female. Even if that adult doe is killed in September, her doe fawn will likely produce a fawn the following June- in effect, replacing the harvested doe. The population remains at a constant.  If the adult doe survives along with her doe fawn, one deer can become 6-7 in only two breeding deer cycles equaling exponential growth. 

Bear reproduction is as a much lower rate and cycle.  The timing of a bears pregnancy is also a critical factor. When a lone sow is killed, there is an extremely high chance that she is pregnant from the June breeding. Her death thereby results in the loss of 3 bears from the population. Bears produce two cubs on average every two years so even without hunting, the population is only enhanced  by an average of only two bears every two years.  When a pregnant sow is killed, there is 0% production- forever.  

What about the killing of dry sows? The results are just as devastating. A dry sow is rarely taken by a spot and stalk hunter because she is seen to have those first year cubs with her.  Those cubs are fully dependent on her for two years.   When bear hunting with dogs is brought into the equation, these sows are often killed without knowledge of her yearling cubs separated during the dog chase.  This results (inadvertent or not) in the killing of all three bears with a single bullet as studies show a mortality rate of near 100% on these orphaned, first year cubs. 

I have hunted bears for nearly 40 years and remember when just seeing a bear track was something to talk about. It took decades to rebuild the bear population in this state. Why are we going backwards?

This dog hunting should be considered a highly malignant cancer and when coupled with the huge increase in illegal bear kills now occurring over “deer hunting” corn piles, will result in devastating population consequences. Remember, when a population crash is finally realized, it can’t be “fixed” by the stoppage of bad management practices. It will take years to self correct. 

I understand that many of the utterly ridiculous decisions made by the DNR in recent years are the result of pressures applied by government officials outside of their agency but the decision to allows this slaughter of the core breeding population goes against every conceivable scientific  management strategy. At the very least, why was there not a per square mile kill quota in place? Not only should this not ever happen again but there should be ramifications for these disastrous results. 

I am utterly opposed to the killing of bears with dogs.  This state does not have the wilderness density nor the base population to sustain the use of dogs or bait hunting.  If you love bear hunting as it is or you simply love the wildness that they represent, you had better fight for it before the population is devastated. 

Call your government officials and attend every DNR meeting and fight for sound game management decisions and not decisions based on revenue production and the desires of a small percentage of the hunting population. 

Once the damage is done, some of us won’t live to see it corrected.  

If I have ruffled any feathers, I am sorry.  I have waited 40 years for this bear recovery and can’t sit quietly and see it undone.


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## tree cutter 08 (Oct 7, 2019)

I understand how you feel. I feel the same way about our mountain deer heard. I'm not crazy about the dog hunt but, I seriously doubt there will be no more bears killed as a whole than last year. With as many acorns as there is this year there will probably only be half the harvest of last year's. No reason we can't have a balance of all game in the mountains. My opinion is that there are to many bears. Spent another morning in the mountains and not seen a deer or a track yet in the big woods. Lots and lots of bear tracks though.


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## humdandy (Oct 7, 2019)

I couldn't have said it any better!  

Thank you sir!


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## Hillbilly stalker (Oct 7, 2019)

Considering how many bears were taken in a short amount of time, and considering their size......it doesn't take a biologist to tell the balance was way out of whack . Kinda like a farm pond that doesn't have enough bream taken out of it. And evidently the deer herd has suffered along with the local farmers. Everyone wants to see more bears, especially still hunters. You want big bears ? Or a bunch of little knotty ones ? I don't think you can have both.


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## wks41 (Oct 7, 2019)

I thought that they would kill some bears on the dog hunt for sure.  I did not think that they would take 60.  It’s pretty sad when you think about it.  The guy in another thread said his group took 9 bears.  Hopefully they severely limit harvest if they decide to allow this again.  After a couple seasons of 60 kill weekends the bears will be like the deer.  I hope the DNR comes to its senses.


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## humdandy (Oct 7, 2019)

wks41 said:


> I thought that they would kill some bears on the dog hunt for sure.  I did not think that they would take 60.  It’s pretty sad when you think about it.  The guy in another thread said his group took 9 bears.  Hopefully they severely limit harvest if they decide to allow this again.  After a couple seasons of 60 kill weekends the bears will be like the deer.  I hope the DNR comes to its senses.



That doesn't even consider the number of abandon cubs who will surely die.  

If I had to guess conservatively the number of bears murdered from this hunt will be close to 120-150.

It will be years until people see bears on this WMA like they did in the past.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 7, 2019)

I think you're being a bit alarmist. There are usually over a hundred bears a year killed in my county, most of them with dogs. 142 this last season. This has been going on for decades and decades. Yet, every season there are more and more bears. You see them all over, and they have spread out into places they didn't used to be, and even the towns are full of them. Granted, we have part of my county in national park, and two bear sanctuaries, but still. We have way too many bears in many areas. They are wiping out the deer in places.


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## Buckman18 (Oct 7, 2019)

It really just boils down to what you want to hunt... I greatly prefer to go deer hunting and see deer and an occasional bear rather than go see nothing but bears. I havent seen a deer on Chattahoochee WMA since January, and that includes spending nearly an entire turkey season there until I limited out, spending the spring and summer trout fishing there, my wife and I taking her photography camera to take bear pics, and bow hunting and then dog hunting the wma. I have seen a deer TRACK since summer. Think about that for a bit...

However, This hunt should not have been scheduled during bow season. I think the genius who screwed the bow hunters has now been reassigned to "special projects" or some other gay title of some such. Hopefully now he is doing a tweety bird study somewhere.


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## Hillbilly stalker (Oct 7, 2019)

humdandy said:


> That doesn't even consider the number of abandon cubs who will surely die.
> 
> If I had to guess conservatively the number of bears murdered from this hunt will be close to 120-150.
> 
> It will be years until people see bears on this WMA like they did in the past.


Why is it " murder" when the hounds man kill a bear, and yet a great hunt when you do ?


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## Gator89 (Oct 7, 2019)

The 60 or so bears killed may have been predominantly on Chattahoochee WMA, but the re-stocking population draws from GA, NC & TN.


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## Timberman (Oct 7, 2019)

You can either have a lot of bears and no deer or some bears and some deer....

I highly doubt that Cohutta, Rich Mountain, Blue Ridge, Cooper Creek, Swallow Creek, Lake Burton, Coleman River, Warwoman, Tray Mountain, Brasstown, Southern Nantahala and surrounding areas were effected. YMMV


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## Gator89 (Oct 7, 2019)

Gator89 said:


> The 60 or so bears killed may have been predominantly on Chattahoochee WMA, but the re-stocking population draws from GA, NC & TN.



Schedule the next one for MLK weekend 2021, so the young hunters get 3 days out of school.


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## Christian hughey (Oct 7, 2019)

tree cutter 08 said:


> I understand how you feel. I feel the same way about our mountain deer heard. I'm not crazy about the dog hunt but, I seriously doubt there will be no more bears killed as a whole than last year. With as many acorns as there is this year there will probably only be half the harvest of last year's. No reason we can't have a balance of all game in the mountains. My opinion is that there are to many bears. Spent another morning in the mountains and not seen a deer or a track yet in the big woods. Lots and lots of bear tracks though.


You wanna show me where these dang bears are and I'll show you some deer I seen 5 this past weekend and and missed my chance at a stud of a mountain buck, no bears. I'd be happy to swap spots lol.


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## jbogg (Oct 7, 2019)

Hillbilly stalker said:


> Considering how many bears were taken in a short amount of time, and considering their size......it doesn't take a biologist to tell the balance was way out of whack . Kinda like a farm pond that doesn't have enough bream taken out of it. And evidently the deer herd has suffered along with the local farmers. Everyone wants to see more bears, especially still hunters. You want big bears ? Or a bunch of little knotty ones ? I don't think you can have both.



This entire hunt was ill conceived from the start.  Many agree that the timing of the hunt was poorly chosen if all stakeholders were to be considered. Additionally, that there were no limits put on the number of dogs used or the number of bears killed proves that the DNR gave no consideration to sound science in establishing this hunt. 

The fact that 50 bears were killed on Chattahoochee in one week does not prove overpopulation, it proves that 50 bear were killed in one week. The fact that many on here have pointed to bears getting into birdfeeders and garbage as proof of overpopulation is faulty as well. Bears are highly intelligent and will Key in on the easiest to obtain food sources. Again, this is not proof of overpopulation.

Many on this forum have also blamed bears for the demise of the deer population in the mountains. While they likely played a role, there are many other variables involved. Lack of timber cutting, poor fawning cover, and an exploding coyote population all play a huge role as well. The unfortunate reality is that with deer numbers being so low bear predation on newborn Fawns will likely be replaced by additional coyote predation on newborn fawns as coyotes will quickly fill in the void left by the decrease in bear numbers.   This predator pit scenario has been well established,  and there is likely no bear harvest number that would positively impact deer populations  until and unless other drastic measures are taken. 

Everyone has an agenda, and mine is that there remain a healthy, huntable population of black bears on the entire National Forest. The number of bears killed on Chattahoochee in one week is extremely concerning for all the reasons listed in the OP’s original post.   If the dog hunt is allowed to continue as it stands now, and possibly expanded to the rest of Chattahoochee national Forest in the future then bear hunting as we know it will be changed forever.


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## tree cutter 08 (Oct 7, 2019)

No reason if managed right we can't have the best of it all. If I had to say the balance was late 1990s early 2000's. No way to support the deer population of the 70s and 80s with today's forest. Like said above the population was to thick so it results in scrony bears like to old 100 lb sow I killed last year on hooch. If you want a bigger bear, the big woods is a hard place to find it. He will be more isolated where the bear population isn't as high.


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## Hillbilly stalker (Oct 7, 2019)

jbogg said:


> This entire hunt was ill conceived from the start.  Many agree that the timing of the hunt was poorly chosen if all stakeholders were to be considered. Additionally, that there were no limits put on the number of dogs used or the number of bears killed proves that the DNR gave no consideration to sound science in establishing this hunt.
> 
> The fact that 50 bears were killed on Chattahoochee in one week does not prove overpopulation, it proves that 50 bear were killed in one week. The fact that many on here have pointed to bears getting into birdfeeders and garbage as proof of overpopulation is faulty as well. Bears are highly intelligent and will Key in on the easiest to obtain food sources. Again, this is not proof of overpopulation.
> 
> ...


Alright, if bears in people's yards , garbage , gardens and seen on the side of the road, deer numbers down to non existent, large numbers killed in a short amount of time doesn't signify overpopulation......could you tell me what does then ?


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## jbogg (Oct 7, 2019)

Hillbilly stalker said:


> Alright, if bears in people's yards , garbage , gardens and seen on the side of the road, deer numbers down to non existent, large numbers killed in a short amount of time doesn't signify overpopulation......could you tell me what does then ?



 As I tried to explain in my earlier post, just because you see bears in peoples garbage and raiding birdfeeders is not proof of overpopulation. They are very smart and like many animals will go to the easiest source of food. It’s easy to make anecdotal arguments that can’t be proven, but why don’t we start with what is a healthy bear density per square mile, and then what is the actual density.   I have seen some folks on here suggest that there is a bear behind every bush. I would be willing to bet that I have burned more boot leather off trail in those mountains over the past 3 1/2 years than most people ever will, and I can tell you a bear sighting is still a treat.


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## Hillbilly stalker (Oct 7, 2019)

Dog hunters ( residents), practice a lot more catch and release than some of you guys realize. A treed bear can be looked at with bino's, studied, filmed released or killed. When a still hunter kills one, what's done is done. The state might be a step ahead of ya'll and you don't know it. They may have issued so many tags to NON- residents because they knew they would harvest any legal bear, thus getting the population back nearer to being balanced.


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## tree cutter 08 (Oct 7, 2019)

Christian hughey said:


> You wanna show me where these dang bears are and I'll show you some deer I seen 5 this past weekend and and missed my chance at a stud of a mountain buck, no bears. I'd be happy to swap spots lol.


I've got a few I'm focusing on those year. I'll pm ya after this weekend. Likely done missed out for best chances this year. Tons of acorns on the ground now and they staying in the thick stuff eating now. Followed a big hog around this morning for a while trying to get the little man on him for a shot but he was sucking down acorns in chest high buck berries.


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## Christian hughey (Oct 7, 2019)

tree cutter 08 said:


> I've got a few I'm focusing on those year. I'll pm ya after this weekend. Likely done missed out for best chances this year. Tons of acorns on the ground now and they staying in the thick stuff eating now. Followed a big hog around this morning for a while trying to get the little man on him for a shot but he was sucking down acorns in chest high buck berries.


I have seen way more deer this season up there than expected for sure. I count it as a success, just getting out and seeing something. I think my problem is I'm hunting too low. Last year I saw alot low but have had trouble other years. Like you said if they are above me feeding in the thick and dont have a need to drop down, I am missing them all together and I have a feeling that's what is happening. Thanks


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## jbogg (Oct 7, 2019)

Timberman said:


> You can either have a lot of bears and no deer or some bears and some deer....
> 
> I highly doubt that Cohutta, Rich Mountain, Blue Ridge, Cooper Creek, Swallow Creek, Lake Burton, Coleman River, Warwoman, Tray Mountain, Brasstown, Southern Nantahala and surrounding areas were effected. YMMV



Just wait. The current dog hunt was to be a two-year trial. If this is expanded to include all the mountain WMAs And most of the Chattahoochee national Forest then you will no doubt see an impact.


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## Christian hughey (Oct 7, 2019)

Hillbilly stalker said:


> Alright, if bears in people's yards , garbage , gardens and seen on the side of the road, deer numbers down to non existent, large numbers killed in a short amount of time doesn't signify overpopulation......could you tell me what does then ?





Hillbilly stalker said:


> Alright, if bears in people's yards , garbage , gardens and seen on the side of the road, deer numbers down to non existent, large numbers killed in a short amount of time doesn't signify overpopulation......could you tell me what does then ?


The deer numbers do not look terrible from what I see if you know where to hunt them. I was explaining this to a friend over the weekend as to why we were seeing so many deer in this area but no bears. From what i have found from scouting and hunting over the years in this area is the deer like it low you rarely catch a deer up in the hills because they aren't made to Climb those mountains like bears will. Deer are gonna take the thickest path of least resistance, if you hunt an area suitable for deer your gonna see deer. Bear on the other hand, will stay anywhere high, low, thick, wherever there is food. One thing I am finding this year is the bears aren't having to drop down in search of food like they did last year but deer are definitely being seen if you look for them low. The comments that they are non existant are not true. Population doesn't seem to shabby from my hunting area.


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## Hillbilly stalker (Oct 7, 2019)

jbogg said:


> As I tried to explain in my earlier post, just because you see bears in peoples garbage and raiding birdfeeders is not proof of overpopulation. They are very smart and like many animals will go to the easiest source of food. It’s easy to make anecdotal arguments that can’t be proven, but why don’t we start with what is a healthy bear density per square mile, and then what is the actual density.   I have seen some folks on here suggest that there is a bear behind every bush. I would be willing to bet that I have burned more boot leather off trail in those mountains over the past 3 1/2 years than most people ever will, and I can tell you a bear sighting is still a treat.


But can you tell me what the signs of over population are ? And  I left out stunted growth. I'm pretty familar with bears behavior. I just wonder what others signs including vehicular accident would show over population ? Seems like a lot of sightings by hunters. The dog hunt just proved it.


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## humdandy (Oct 7, 2019)

Hillbilly stalker said:


> Why is it " murder" when the hounds man kill a bear, and yet a great hunt when you do ?



Never murdered one in Georgia.


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## Throwback (Oct 7, 2019)

Hillbilly stalker said:


> Considering how many bears were taken in a short amount of time, and considering their size......it doesn't take a biologist to tell the balance was way out of whack . Kinda like a farm pond that doesn't have enough bream taken out of it. And evidently the deer herd has suffered along with the local farmers. Everyone wants to see more bears, especially still hunters. You want big bears ? Or a bunch of little knotty ones ? I don't think you can have both.



when florida had their first bear  hunt in decades the antis were up in arms because so many bears were killed so quick. The most probable reason was there were TOO MANY of them for their habitat.


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## Throwback (Oct 7, 2019)

Do bowhunters realize that anti hunters are just as opposed--if not more opposed--to bowhunting than using dogs to hunt? we should be sticking up for each other, not tearing each other down.


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## jbogg (Oct 7, 2019)

Hillbilly stalker said:


> But can you tell me what the signs of over population are ? And  I left out stunted growth. I'm pretty familar with bears behavior. I just wonder what others signs including vehicular accident would show over population ? Seems like a lot of sightings by hunters. The dog hunt just proved it.



I am sure there is a statistic of bear car collisions That would indicate an overpopulation of bears. I don’t know what that number is, and I’m guessing you don’t either.  Also, all this talk about stunted growth, where in the world is this coming from. Who are all the biologists on here Who apparently Have established the correct weight for a healthy bear. Please educate me. Just how much should a healthy sow weigh?  

 My point is that a lot of people are making a lot of assumptions, and that is no way to manage wildlife. At the April public input meeting in Gainesville I asked John Bowers point blank why there was no limit on the number of bears that could be taken during the dog hunt. He had no answer. I also asked how did they arrive at the dates of the scheduled dog hunt?  Again, no intelligent answer. He declared that he just kind of picked a date that he thought would work and that they will wait and see what happens  as this hunt is a trial. That’s no way to manage the resource.


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## jerry russell (Oct 7, 2019)

As expected, many with limited knowledge are the most outspoken on the subject and simply can’t refrain from injecting emotion into an analytical discussion.  

Just a little info to help with the understanding of the impact of this situation... For those that argue that there are more bear than deer in the North Georgia region, nothing could be further from the truth.

The estimated population of white tailed deer in this state is pushing 1 MILLION. 
The estimated population of black bears in North Georgia is less than 3,500.  

With the consideration for the very low density per square mile, the devastating impact of taking 40+ females along with countless cubs is sickening.  

For those that think that this void can be replaced with “feeder” populations... I can’t even respond to this irrational thinking.  

Before taking an emotional stance on this issue, take a moment and read the information provided in this link.  

Please pay particular attention to the segment that explains that a mortality rate of anything more than 23% will result in a declining population.  This means 23% of all bear deaths including hunting, predation, vehicle deaths etc.  When consider the fact that near 90% of this hunts kill was female bears and the countless deaths to cubs, you can bet that percentage of mortality on this areas bear population far exceeded every known management principle.  

There will be ramifications for those that allowed this uncontrolled killing.  What occurred there destroyed over 50 years of sound Bear management.  
https://georgiawildlife.com/sites/default/files/wrd/pdf/regulations/BearPlanDraftOct2018.pdf


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## Hillbilly stalker (Oct 7, 2019)

humdandy said:


> Never murdered one in Georgia.[/QUOTE





jbogg said:


> I am sure there is a statistic of bear car collisions That would indicate an overpopulation of bears. I don’t know what that number is, and I’m guessing you don’t either.  Also, all this talk about stunted growth, where in the world is this coming from. Who are all the biologists on here Who apparently Have established the correct weight for a healthy bear. Please educate me. Just how much should a healthy sow weigh?
> 
> My point is that a lot of people are making a lot of assumptions, and that is no way to manage wildlife. At the April public input meeting in Gainesville I asked John Bowers point blank why there was no limit on the number of bears that could be taken during the dog hunt. He had no answer. I also asked how did they arrive at the dates of the scheduled dog hunt?  Again, no intelligent answer. He declared that he just kind of picked a date that he thought would work and that they will wait and see what happens  as this hunt is a trial. That’s no way to manage the resource.


So you cannot tell me what would indicate over population ? Vehicular accidents would be a poor indicator. On one of the earlier posts, someone provide the number and average weight of the bears killed. I believe that's what we are using as a baseline. If none of the 30 plus bears weighed over 150-200 lbs, I think it's a safe assumption that they are stunted. The facts are there, some might not be happy with them, but that doesn't change them. If nothing else maybe this will get more people involved in the DNR meetings and something better can be worked out. Maybe more tagged bears for more data.


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## jbogg (Oct 7, 2019)

Christian hughey said:


> The deer numbers do not look terrible from what I see if you know where to hunt them. I was explaining this to a friend over the weekend as to why we were seeing so many deer in this area but no bears. From what i have found from scouting and hunting over the years in this area is the deer like it low you rarely catch a deer up in the hills because they aren't made to Climb those mountains like bears will. Deer are gonna take the thickest path of least resistance, if you hunt an area suitable for deer your gonna see deer. Bear on the other hand, will stay anywhere high, low, thick, wherever there is food. One thing I am finding this year is the bears aren't having to drop down in search of food like they did last year but deer are definitely being seen if you look for them low. The comments that they are non existant are not true. Population doesn't seem to shabby from my hunting area.



 Sounds like maybe you have found a little pocket of deer, but you won’t find anybody on here that will argue that the mountain deer population is healthy. Maybe around the edge of the national forest near the settlements there are decent numbers, but overall the deer population is pitiful on the national forest.  Deer are  well suited to live at all elevations as long as there is food. Several decades ago you could kill deer in the mountains all the way from the river bottoms to the highest elevations.


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## humdandy (Oct 7, 2019)

Hillbilly stalker said:


> So you cannot tell me what would indicate over population ? Vehicular accidents would be a poor indicator. On one of the earlier posts, someone provide the number and average weight of the bears killed. I believe that's what we are using as a baseline. If none of the 30 plus bears weighed over 150-200 lbs, I think it's a safe assumption that they are stunted. The facts are there, some might not be happy with them, but that doesn't change them. If nothing else maybe this will get more people involved in the DNR meetings and something better can be worked out. Maybe more tagged bears for more data.



Neither can the DNR.  I voiced my opinion to the DNR about this hunt.  I was told the decision was made already..........before any town meetings!


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## jerry russell (Oct 7, 2019)

Throwback said:


> Do bowhunters realize that anti hunters are just as opposed--if not more opposed--to bowhunting than using dogs to hunt? we should be sticking up for each other, not tearing each other down.



This has nothing to do with Bowhunters vs dog hunters.  This has everything to do extreme concerns about horrific decisions by DNR that will ultimately impact all hunters down the road.  

Wrong is wrong and this is not an issue where locking step is appropriate.


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## jbogg (Oct 7, 2019)

Hillbilly stalker said:


> So you cannot tell me what would indicate over population ? Vehicular accidents would be a poor indicator. On one of the earlier posts, someone provide the number and average weight of the bears killed. I believe that's what we are using as a baseline. If none of the 30 plus bears weighed over 150-200 lbs, I think it's a safe assumption that they are stunted. The facts are there, some might not be happy with them, but that doesn't change them. If nothing else maybe this will get more people involved in the DNR meetings and something better can be worked out. Maybe more tagged bears for more data.



 I’m not going to keep arguing with you. I am not a biologist, and therefore I don’t know what the current bear population is, or what a healthy population should be. What I do know is that all of the arguments you have made for overpopulation are anecdotal at best and not proof of anything.  Using that logic  I could claim that since  several hundred hunters were only  able to kill 14 bears on Chattahoochee WMA  each year for the last couple of years that that is proof of under population. Science doesn’t work that way.


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## Throwback (Oct 7, 2019)

jerry russell said:


> This has nothing to do with Bowhunters vs dog hunters.  This has everything to do extreme concerns about horrific decisions by DNR that will ultimately impact all hunters down the road.
> 
> Wrong is wrong and this is not an issue where locking step is appropriate.




so why haven't bear been exterminated in other places where dog hunting is allowed using modern management techniques?

im not saying let dog hunters go hog wild--but it has its place if done properly.


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## tree cutter 08 (Oct 7, 2019)

I don't know much but I do know this dog hunt has created more conflict on the bear forum than there has ever been. I do know that!


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## Hillbilly stalker (Oct 7, 2019)

jbogg said:


> I’m not going to keep arguing with you. I am not a biologist, and therefore I don’t know what the current bear population is, or what a healthy population should be. What I do know is that
> 
> I thought we were just having a conversation , not arguing. Sorry bout that. But if you can tell me what is NOT an indicator, I would hope you could tell me what is. I'm not a biologist either, but common sense goes along way. Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers bud.


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## Christian hughey (Oct 7, 2019)

Throwback said:


> Do bowhunters realize that anti hunters are just as opposed--if not more opposed--to bowhunting than using dogs to hunt? we should be sticking up for each other, not tearing each other down.


I have never downed a hunter for hunting of any kind. I do however acknowledge who actually does the hunting. Without that dog that group of guys wouldn't be hitting or treeing nothing. The dogs do the hunting. The rest of the group shows up to do the shooting, you boys better appreciate what that dog does for you and quit hoggin all the credit.


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## Christian hughey (Oct 7, 2019)

Throwback said:


> so why haven't bear been exterminated in other places where dog hunting is allowed using modern management techniques?
> 
> im not saying let dog hunters go hog wild--but it has its place if done properly.


IF DONE PROPERLY. Very good choice of words sir


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## Christian hughey (Oct 7, 2019)

jbogg said:


> Sounds like maybe you have found a little pocket of deer, but you won’t find anybody on here that will argue that the mountain deer population is healthy. Maybe around the edge of the national forest near the settlements there are decent numbers, but overall the deer population is pitiful on the national forest.  Deer are  well suited to live at all elevations as long as there is food. Several decades ago you could kill deer in the mountains all the way from the river bottoms to the highest elevations.


Just saying they there! Sure wish I could find a dang little pocket of bear that easy!


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## Ghost G (Oct 7, 2019)

Jerry, I'm stuck working and I want to know how's the bear hunt going today?


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## NGA44 (Oct 7, 2019)

Don’t be fooled by this clown. He has an agenda behind his words. He is actually “upset” not because he cares oh so deeply about conserving bears, but because he owns a bear hunting guide business. He uses the resources that YOU THE HUNTER own and provide money for management of for his own benefit. Right here in OUR north GA mountains! How many bears have your clients that pay you thousands killed? Just admit you’re upset because the houndsmen cut into your bottom line, not because you care about the health of the bear population like all these other hunters on this forum do.

http://www.russelloutdoorguides.com/georgia-big-game-hunts.html


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## Hillbilly stalker (Oct 7, 2019)

NGA44 said:


> Don’t be fooled by this clown. He has an agenda behind his words. He is actually “upset” not because he cares oh so deeply about conserving bears, but because he owns a bear hunting guide business. He uses the resources that YOU THE HUNTER own and provide money for management of for his own benefit. Right here in OUR north GA mountains! How many bears have your clients that pay you thousands killed? Just admit you’re upset because the houndsmen cut into your bottom line, not because you care about the health of the bear population like all these other hunters on this forum do.
> 
> http://www.russelloutdoorguides.com/georgia-big-game-hunts.html


Uttttt ohhhhhh !!!!!! Cats out of the bag now. i guess that knowledge meter and emotional gauge just got checked


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## NGA44 (Oct 7, 2019)

You are spreading all this hate and false information, further dividing hunters as a whole. When fellow hunters start to say things like you’re saying and act the way you’re acting is when the anti hunters “go for the throat” so to speak. Look at California, hound hunting was the FIRST thing to be banned. Now they are slowly chipping away at ALL hunting. We’ve got to stick together, or we’ll all lose our respective method of hunting.


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## Thunder Head (Oct 7, 2019)

I'm sorry,
 But the mere mention the deer population is fine in the mountains, is just plain laughable.
 If you want to stick to that statement. Ive got a dozen places that produced deer in the past. Ill trade them to you for 1 "just 1" of your spots with plenty of deer.


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## jbogg (Oct 7, 2019)

NGA44 said:


> You are spreading all this hate and false information, further dividing hunters as a whole. When fellow hunters start to say things like you’re saying and act the way you’re acting is when the anti hunters “go for the throat” so to speak. Look at California, hound hunting was the FIRST thing to be banned. Now they are slowly chipping away at ALL hunting. We’ve got to stick together, or we’ll all lose our respective method of hunting.



So Jerry linking the DNRs own report is the equivalent of him spreading hate and disinformation?  Give me a break.  He is the only one on this thread to provide documentation backing up his statements.  Everyone else is busy spouting their feelings while he provides facts.  That he has a guide business in no way discounts his opinion. The fact that he has more at stake than most for wanting to see bear populations remain healthy doesn't diminish his argument.  If this hunt stands and is expanded it will be a short term windfall for dog hunters (half of which are from out of state), and it won't be long before there are not enough bears for anyone to hunt.  Hope everyone likes hunting hogs!


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## jerry russell (Oct 7, 2019)

The size of the bears taken has absolutely nothing to do with bear density and or over-population. Georgia has less than 4 bears per square mile. Food is not an issue.   

The type of hunting has EVERYTHING to do with the small  size the bears killed.   Females are much quicker to tree and this is especially true when they are attempting to protect their young.  
This, paired with the hunters willingness to shoot 100 pound 2 year old cubs resulted in low average weights.  

Males are stronger and much less likely to tree quickly.


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## jerry russell (Oct 7, 2019)

Guys I appreciate those that are willing to express their opinions from a fact based point of view.  
For those that express through emotion and anger, I haven’t the time or inclination to debate.  How you or I “feel” has nothing to do with the science of established wildlife management principles.  

There is no ill will expressed in my post. My opinions are as fact based as I can make them and the links provided are from THE most knowledgeable wildlife professionals in the field- all removed from political influences.  

If anyone takes this personally, that is just beating your head against a wall of factual information.


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## wks41 (Oct 7, 2019)

NGA44 this is typical of someone who has no real argument.  Call someone a clown and try to diminish his character.  I said it in a thread prior to the dog hunt passing, dog hunters make themselves look very bad.  Your attitude and poor articulation of your points, well leads to name calling like a 12 year old.  The fact is you “houndsmen” dig your own grave.  Now this is in no way trying to lump all dog hunters together but it only takes a few to make the whole group look bad.   I’ve never met Jerry but have read his posts and listened to a podcast he was on.  The man seems very genuine and passionate about hunting and conservation.  So how about the next time you decide to post take two minutes and think about what your gonna write and maybe, just maybe you’ll come across less obnoxious.


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## jerry russell (Oct 7, 2019)

Throwback said:


> so why haven't bear been exterminated in other places where dog hunting is allowed using modern management techniques?
> 
> im not saying let dog hunters go hog wild--but it has its place if done properly.



I feel like you may have answered your own question when you mentioned modern management techniques.  This hunt allowed indiscriminate killing that resulted in a terribly lopsided taking of females.  Properly done, a quota should have been established prior to the hunt and when X number of sows taken the hunt should have been halted. 

This would have resulted in more self control by the participants vs shoot this one and hurry to the next.  

My point is this.  It could have been done responsibly.  The way it was done resulted in a slaughter of the most vulnerable portion of the population.


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## jbogg (Oct 7, 2019)

jerry russell said:


> I feel like you may have answered your own question when you mentioned modern management techniques.  This hunt allowed indiscriminate killing that resulted in a terribly lopsided taking of females.  Properly done, a quota should have been established prior to the hunt and when X number of sows taken the hunt should have been halted.
> 
> This would have resulted in more self control by the participants vs shoot this one and hurry to the next.
> 
> My point is this.  It could have been done responsibly.  The way it was done resulted in a slaughter of the most vulnerable portion of the population.



My feelings exactly.  I am not against dog hunting, and  As  a matter of fact, I have been intrigued by hunting with hounds and actually reached out to a member on this forum asking if I could tagalong in the off-season on a hog hunt.   However, I am against unrestricted Dog hunting which is exactly what we had last week.


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## goshenmountainman (Oct 7, 2019)

I hope this dog hunt goes on for years, because all the great bear hunters can't kill enough bears otherwise. Look at all the kill data, it proves that we can't kill enough otherwise. The dog hunt is not going to affect the bears one bit. They didn't kill any other than on the two WMA, so how is this the end to the bears? I don't want to see them completely gone, but I would like to see a lot less of them while deer hunting. I have already passed four that I could have easily killed, but they were to far away from the road and I was by myself and didn't want to fool with them. They were all 150-200 lb. the most common bear in these mountains! If they had been the big one I would have taken him, because he is a monster! I beleive people are trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill...


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## jbogg (Oct 7, 2019)

goshenmountainman said:


> I hope this dog hunt goes on for years, because all the great bear hunters can't kill enough bears otherwise. Look at all the kill data, it proves that we can't kill enough otherwise. The dog hunt is not going to affect the bears one bit. They didn't kill any other than on the two WMA, so how is this the end to the bears? I don't want to see them completely gone, but I would like to see a lot less of them while deer hunting. I have already passed four that I could have easily killed, but they were to far away from the road and I was by myself and didn't want to fool with them. They were all 150-200 lb. the most common bear in these mountains! If they had been the big one I would have taken him, because he is a monster! I beleive people are trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill...



“ The dog hunt is not going to affect the Bears one bit.”   Did I miss something? 50 bears coming off one 25,000 acre wildlife management area represents somewhere around 1/3 of the total population. With the majority of those being females  The bear population will definitely be affected.  Don’t take my word for it. Read the link that Jerry posted earlier on sustainable harvest rates.   It comes straight from your DNR.   Furthermore, if this hunt is expanded to include all of the Chattahoochee national Forest and mountain WMAs without any more restrictions than they had on this hunt the repercussions will be felt for a long time.


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## Raylander (Oct 7, 2019)

Killing bears will not bring deer back. If it did, NC would be a deer hunters paradise..


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## jbogg (Oct 7, 2019)

Joe Brandon said:


> I dont know what those stats prove Jerry. I'm no math mathematician but any way I twist it 50 bears dont equal 23% of 3,000. If that's even a usable number it is from 2010 of course. Again I'm no einstein. Just like the rifle hunt the dog hunt will continue and thank God! Don't like it don't hunt with dogs pretty simple to me.



 I’m pretty sure his point was that 50 bears represents far more than 23% of Chattahoochee WMAs bear population. If this hunt was expanded to include the entire national forest with proportionally the same number of bears allowed to be taken then the end result would be a drastically decreasing bear population overall.


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## Raylander (Oct 7, 2019)

I’m assuming they kept a tooth for aging purposes. Does anyone know if they kept any reproductive organs for research purposes? 

I know WV does. They gather data including pregnancy rates in relation to age, mast crop, etc. It helps in predicting the population impact..


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## goshenmountainman (Oct 7, 2019)

jbogg said:


> “ The dog hunt is not going to affect the Bears one bit.”   Did I miss something? 50 bears coming off one 25,000 acre wildlife management area represents somewhere around 1/3 of the total population. With the majority of those being females  The bear population will definitely be affected.  Don’t take my word for it. Read the link that Jerry posted earlier on sustainable harvest rates.   It comes straight from your DNR.   Furthermore, if this hunt is expanded to include all of the Chattahoochee national Forest and mountain WMAs without any more restrictions than they had on this hunt the repercussions will be felt for a long time.


I don't know what your problem is, but if you think they killed a third of the population on that WMA, your on some dang good kool aid.. I guarantee you, you will not be able to even notice it by next bow season. And "WE" meaning the people who live here in these mountains everyday don't think this is a magic fix for the deer population. It will take other measures also, but this is a start that we have been begging for for many years. Would you rather people that are having these bear problems every year, just shoot them in the gut and let them run off and die? Because I have heard that very thing come from many peoples mouth, don't know if it has been done but I have heard it many times. I don't know about you but I would rather someone get the bears and use the meat for eating rather than the buzzards getting it. If you were feeding trout  and they broke into your feed house by tearing the walls off it and proceeded to tearing up about 40 bags of feed that cost 42.00 per bag you would have a different opinion on these bears. And if the bear population was one per acre? How many would be there? I am not saying there would be 25,000, but I gaurantee you that there is at least 200-300 on those two WMA's


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 7, 2019)

worleyburd86 said:


> Killing bears will not bring deer back. If it did, NC would be a deer hunters paradise..


We are covered with bears. Bears bears bears everywhere. I saw three last week at close range. Now, where you used to see deer, you see bears hogging the acorns and other mast. They work on the fawns heavy, too. And my county usually has over a hundred bears a year killed, mostly with dogs. About a hundred and fifty last year. Yet, the population continues to increase and expand. To the point of being a problem and a danger. Had a guy right up the road from me attacked by one in his yard while he was blowing leaves with a leaf blower.

I don't want bears wiped out, but obviously, hunting them with dogs will not wipe the population out, or there sure wouldn't be any left here in western NC, where the Plott hounds originated and people have been dogging them heavy for a couple hundred years. Those bears won't be nearly as easy to tree after a few hunts.


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## goshenmountainman (Oct 7, 2019)

And I hope they keep this season open from now on, because I am going to get me some bear dogs, it will take a couple years training to get them good though. Lets say that 50 bears represent 25% of total population, lets say out of the 150 bears left there were 50 females. In two years those 50 females had 2 cubs each, lets say 25% of the cubs died, bingo, you still have 75 bears that make it and your right back where we were...overpopulated again. This is not science, but I bet its dang close!!


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## NGA44 (Oct 7, 2019)

I think the “facts” you are providing aren’t as factual as you believe. You have provided one link to literature to “support” your facts. That literature isn’t even research, just a state bear management plan. You are just stating what you think bear biology is, not hard facts.

We could all go back and forth for years about this but here’s a wake up call for all you anti dog folks. Houndsmen are the most well organized group of hunters out there. That’s how this hunt even started, we showed up and made our voices heard. There are hundreds, possibly thousands of them right here in the mountains. We got what we asked for and did what DNR wanted us to do: kill bears and return a balance to the mountain ecosystem on these WMAs. There is a microscopic number of people who are die hard about bow hunting for bears. We’ve got the ball rolling for dog hunting in north GA and it will be nearly impossible to stop.


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## Christian hughey (Oct 7, 2019)

Joe Brandon said:


> I dont know what those stats prove Jerry. I'm no math mathematician but any way I twist it 50 bears dont equal 23% of 3,000. And however you imagine the numbers after with your fawn analogy or whatever is just you imaginen' the numbers. Again I'm no einstein. So you want to talk stats talk stats but make sure they add up. Reading your post was like reading the Muller report, FAKE NEWs. Just like the rifle hunt the dog hunt will continue and thank God! Don't like it don't hunt with dogs pretty simple to me.


I only ask it be mandatory that a majority of the people drawn actually be from georgia. I understand a couple out of state spots but this hunt was rigged out of the gate. I might want my son to participate in one of these hunts one day and that will never happen if they keep selling our resources out from under us completely.


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## Joe Brandon (Oct 7, 2019)

Christian hughey said:


> I only ask it be mandatory that a majority of the people drawn actually be from georgia. I understand a couple out of state spots but this hunt was rigged out of the gate. I might want my son to participate in one of these hunts one day and that will never happen if they keep selling our resources out from under us completely.


I 100% agree!


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## NGA44 (Oct 7, 2019)

Christian hughey said:


> I only ask it be mandatory that a majority of the people drawn actually be from georgia. I understand a couple out of state spots but this hunt was rigged out of the gate. I might want my son to participate in one of these hunts one day and that will never happen if they keep selling our resources out from under us completely.



I encourage you to call DNR tomorrow and request the list of drawn hunters for this hunt or ask how many were in state vs out of state at least. I saw the list at the Friday meeting before the hunt when we all signed in and finalized our party members. 10 were GA residents, 5 were out of state. That’s not a majority like everyone has been so upset about. Call and ask if you don’t believe me. I was there hunting every day and saw way more GA residents than out of state guys.


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## Raylander (Oct 7, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> We are covered with bears. Bears bears bears everywhere. I saw three last week at close range. Now, where you used to see deer, you see bears hogging the acorns and other mast. They work on the fawns heavy, too. And my county usually has over a hundred bears a year killed, mostly with dogs. About a hundred and fifty last year. Yet, the population continues to increase and expand. To the point of being a problem and a danger. Had a guy right up the road from me attacked by one in his yard while he was blowing leaves with a leaf blower.
> 
> I don't want bears wiped out, but obviously, hunting them with dogs will not wipe the population out, or there sure wouldn't be any left here in western NC, where the Plott hounds originated and people have been dogging them heavy for a couple hundred years. Those bears won't be nearly as easy to tree after a few hunts.



That’s my point. After all the years of bear killing, the deer ain’t back.. Bear populations are strongest where they are hunted. Killing the big boars every fall keeps the population artificially high. 

Traditional (fall) hunting will not decrease bear populations. Usually sows are ~40% of harvest. Until a spring season comes along, or they have a sow killin’ (like they just did on the Hooch WMa) the population will just keep growing. As you’ve seen.

For the record, I’m no biologist. And I’m neither against or for hunting with dogs..


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 7, 2019)

worleyburd86 said:


> That’s my point. After all the years of bear killing, the deer ain’t back.. Bear populations are strongest where they are hunted. Killing the big boars every fall keeps the population artificially high.
> 
> Traditional (fall) hunting will not decrease bear populations. Usually sows are ~40% of harvest. Until a spring season comes along, or they have a sow killin’ (like they just did on the Hooch WMa) the population will just keep growing. As you’ve seen.
> 
> For the record, I’m no biologist. And I’m neither against or for hunting with dogs..


The point I'm making is that bears are still overpopulated here. We need more killed. I sure wish they would open bow and muzzleloader season for bears here. With no dogs allowed at that time. I could kill bears every year at point-blank range easily, with no dogs. 

And the figures on sex don't bear out for your theory. Look at the bear harvest for western NC, which is almost all dog hunting. There are a lot less sows than boars killed in most counties, year after year. A lot of houndsmen I know don't shoot sows.


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## Raylander (Oct 7, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> The point I'm making is that bears are still overpopulated here. We need more killed. I sure wish they would open bow and muzzleloader season for bears here. With no dogs allowed at that time. I could kill bears every year at point-blank range easily, with no dogs.
> 
> And the figures on sex don't bear out for your theory. Look at the bear harvest for western NC, which is almost all dog hunting. There are a lot less sows than boars killed in most counties, year after year. A lot of houndsmen I know don't shoot sows.



We are agreeing. You must kill sows to bring population down. If you don’t, they make more bears..


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 7, 2019)

worleyburd86 said:


> We are agreeing. You must kill sows to bring population down. If you don’t, they make more bears..


Yep. The thing that keeps them at infestation levels here is the national park and the bear sanctuaries and the one bear per year limit. No danger of the population going down.


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## Raylander (Oct 7, 2019)

There are a lot less sows than boars killed in most counties, year after year. A lot of houndsmen I know don't shoot sows.[/QUOTE]

That’s what puzzles me. Why did the houndsmen on this hunt kill so many sows? Did the state encourage it? Or where they just ready to get on some meat?


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## Christian hughey (Oct 7, 2019)

worleyburd86 said:


> There are a lot less sows than boars killed in most counties, year after year. A lot of houndsmen I know don't shoot sows.



That’s what puzzles me. Why did the houndsmen on this hunt kill so many sows? Did the state encourage it? Or where they just ready to get on some meat?[/QUOTE]
They had a mandatory meeting before the hunt. I'm sure this was discussed.


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## Heath (Oct 7, 2019)

worleyburd86 said:


> There are a lot less sows than boars killed in most counties, year after year. A lot of houndsmen I know don't shoot sows.



That’s what puzzles me. Why did the houndsmen on this hunt kill so many sows? Did the state encourage it? Or where they just ready to get on some meat?[/QUOTE]

Multiple reasons.  No tag limit means no need to be selective when hunting bears that are not on your home turf and you aren’t trying to manage properly.  Fear that they will never get another opportunity for kill tags in Georgia again would be another,  they made the most of it.


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## Joe Brandon (Oct 7, 2019)

NGA44 said:


> I encourage you to call DNR tomorrow and request the list of drawn hunters for this hunt or ask how many were in state vs out of state at least. I saw the list at the Friday meeting before the hunt when we all signed in and finalized our party members. 10 were GA residents, 5 were out of state. That’s not a majority like everyone has been so upset about. Call and ask if you don’t believe me. I was there hunting every day and saw way more GA residents than out of state guys.


That's more than balanced enough for me. Thank you for that info!!


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## NGA44 (Oct 7, 2019)

Joe Brandon said:


> That's more than balanced enough for me. Thank you for that info!!



I thought so as well. From reading on here I expected over half to be from out of state, and was surprised and happy to see the actual list. That proves that this hunt was for biological purposes, not revenue like has been claimed over and over.


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## jerry russell (Oct 7, 2019)

NGA44 said:


> I think the “facts” you are providing aren’t as factual as you believe. You have provided one link to literature to “support” your facts. That literature isn’t even research, just a state bear management plan. You are just stating what you think bear biology is, not hard facts.
> 
> We could all go back and forth for years about this but here’s a wake up call for all you anti dog folks. Houndsmen are the most well organized group of hunters out there. That’s how this hunt even started, we showed up and made our voices heard. There are hundreds, possibly thousands of them right here in the mountains. We got what we asked for and did what DNR wanted us to do: kill bears and return a balance to the mountain ecosystem on these WMAs. There is a microscopic number of people who are die hard about bow hunting for bears. We’ve got the ball rolling for dog hunting in north GA and it will be nearly impossible to stop.



We can agree to disagree but the Facts presented in that management plan referenced dozens of scientific studies in footnotes.  I didn’t really expect everyone to agree with my opinion but most reasonable people would agree that a state document that references dozens of scientific research projects should be considered as facts especially when comparing it to folklore and other unscientific rambling.  

This probably shows the level of impass that exist and the start of the divide between groups and unwillingness to debate on an grown up level.  

As to the continuation of these hunts, we will see.  The myopic view expressed by some in this forum isn’t shared elsewhere.  The word of how this “hunt”was conducted has now gotten out. Even those that have absolutely no issue with running dogs (like me) strongly oppose the killing of sows and cubs.  The dog hunting community should brace themselves for the backlash that was brought on by the irresponsible manner in which the hunt was conducted and get a spokesman that is literate and not so quick to let conversations break down into silly name calling.


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## jerry russell (Oct 7, 2019)

Joe Brandon said:


> I dont know what those stats prove Jerry. I'm no math mathematician but any way I twist it 50 bears dont equal 23% of 3,000. And however you imagine the numbers after with your fawn analogy or whatever is just you imaginen' the numbers. Again I'm no einstein. So you want to talk stats talk stats but make sure they add up. Reading your post was like reading the Muller report, FAKE NEWs. Just like the rifle hunt the dog hunt will continue and thank God! Don't like it don't hunt with dogs pretty simple to me.



Let’s agree to disagree and on the bottom line of the matter and I was never under any illusions that everyone would be capable of comprehending what I wrote.


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## Buckman18 (Oct 7, 2019)

jerry russell said:


> As expected, many with limited knowledge are the most outspoken on the subject and simply can’t refrain from injecting emotion into an analytical discussion.
> 
> Just a little info to help with the understanding of the impact of this situation... For those that argue that there are more bear than deer in the North Georgia region, nothing could be further from the truth.
> 
> ...



This is Fake News. The 'North Georgia Region?' Do you mean the line north of Augusta to Macon to Columbus??? Of course there are more deer than bears... but if you are talking about the CNF and the WMA's that lie within, such as in Lumpkin, White, Fannin, Union, Towns, Rabun, and Habersham Counties, Bears outnumber deer big time. Its not even close. Especially over 1500 ft elevation.


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## Hillbilly stalker (Oct 7, 2019)

Some people sure think a lot of themselves. Several different hunters in several different states have witnessed to the fact that dog hunting has not erased the bear population. But if a guy wants to run around like his hair is on fire, that’s his choice. It’s ironic that people want to trash DNR, yet link to them to express their point. Sounds like somebody’s mad cause their gonna have to up their game.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 7, 2019)

jerry russell said:


> We can agree to disagree but the Facts presented in that management plan referenced dozens of scientific studies in footnotes.  I didn’t really expect everyone to agree with my opinion but most reasonable people would agree that a state document that references dozens of scientific research projects should be considered as facts especially when comparing it to folklore and other unscientific rambling.
> 
> This probably shows the level of impass that exist and the start of the divide between groups and unwillingness to debate on an grown up level.
> 
> As to the continuation of these hunts, we will see.  The myopic view expressed by some in this forum isn’t shared elsewhere.  The word of how this “hunt”was conducted has now gotten out. Even those that have absolutely no issue with running dogs (like me) strongly oppose the killing of sows and cubs.  The dog hunting community should brace themselves for the backlash that was brought on by the irresponsible manner in which the hunt was conducted and get a spokesman that is literate and not so quick to let conversations break down into silly name calling.


Some folks would very much question the ethics of making profit off our wildlife resources by running an outfitting service. They might call it greed and monetizing wildlife. You question the ethics of hunting bears with dogs. Internal bickering is what will tear us apart and make us all lose in the end. You pick apart and spin data and only see what you want to see; and refuse to see anything from another viewpoint on a "grownup level." The same attitude exists on other planes. Open your mind a bit. The evil dogmen are not going to wipe all your bears out. People will still come pay you to come kill them. I love the way you stereotype all houndsmen as illiterate, also. It speaks volumes about you and your character. And how much you think you know that you just don't.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 7, 2019)

jerry russell said:


> Let’s agree to disagree and on the bottom line of the matter and I was never under any illusions that everyone would be capable of comprehending what I wrote.


Really? You come across as a very condescending, elitist, holier-than-thou person who thinks he is head and shoulders above all the unwashed, illiterate rednecks. Where are you from? Massachusetts? New York? You won't win anyone to your cause by ripping others down and attempting to dehumanize them. They might be smarter than you think.
Hint: Everyone on here isn't ignorant, regardless of what you think up in your ivory tower. And some people hunt for the love of hunting, not to make a dollar off a dead bear.


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## Raylander (Oct 7, 2019)

If we could only all gang up on the FS with this much vigor; we might could get something done.


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## Buckman18 (Oct 7, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> Some folks would very much question the ethics of making profit off our wildlife resources by running an outfitting service. They might call it greed. You question the ethics of hunting bears with dogs. Internal bickering is what will tear us apart and make us all lose in the end. You pick apart and soin data and only see what you want to see; and refuse to see anything from another viewpoint on a "grownup level." The same attitude exists on other planes. Open your mind a bit. The evil dogmen are not going to wipe all your bears out. People will still come pay you to come kill them. I love the way you stereotype all houndsmen as illiterate, also. It speaks volumes about you and your character. And how much you think you know that you just don't.



I agree with my illiterate dog hunting nissan driving cyber friend.

While we are speaking of 'facts,' im tired of hearing how many bears 'live' on chattahoochee wma. Do you know how many square miles a bears home range is? Heres a hint: its more than 25000 acres. See the bear in my avatar wearing a GPS collar? A gentleman from the DNR was nice enough to call me to inform me that my bear, in only 45 days of wearing the collar,  crossed nearly the entire wma he was trapped on, the Mark Trail Wilderness,  the Brasstown Wilderness, Swallow Creek WMA, Tray Mtn, and back to Chattahoochee WMA where he met his end by way of a Rage in the cage launched from my big hairy American killing machine. Heres another fact. My bear had the smallest home range of all other male bears as of that call. They had at least one tracking collar pinging north of Murphy NC.

I disagree with the timing and the fact that out of staters were drawn before me, even though i still got to go. But dang it man, im ready for the deer to return to the mountains.


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## NGA44 (Oct 7, 2019)

jerry russell said:


> We can agree to disagree but the Facts presented in that management plan referenced dozens of scientific studies in footnotes.  I didn’t really expect everyone to agree with my opinion but most reasonable people would agree that a state document that references dozens of scientific research projects should be considered as facts especially when comparing it to folklore and other unscientific rambling.
> 
> This probably shows the level of impass that exist and the start of the divide between groups and unwillingness to debate on an grown up level.
> 
> As to the continuation of these hunts, we will see.  The myopic view expressed by some in this forum isn’t shared elsewhere.  The word of how this “hunt”was conducted has now gotten out. Even those that have absolutely no issue with running dogs (like me) strongly oppose the killing of sows and cubs.  The dog hunting community should brace themselves for the backlash that was brought on by the irresponsible manner in which the hunt was conducted and get a spokesman that is literate and not so quick to let conversations break down into silly name calling.




There will be no backlash, simply because this hunt was completely justified. You have tried to justify your opinion, and it is completely unjustifiable. Let me explain why using hard data like you have not done yet.

Objective within the bear management plan, straight from a source you pulled information from.
a. Maintain a running 4-year average annual harvest of 400 bears in the NGA

Harvest data from 2013-2018, respectively.
379
155
284
265
299
515
That’s an average of 316 bears harvested per year.

It’s as simple as this: traditional GA hunting methods have fallen short of harvesting the desired numbers of bears by nearly 100 animals. The population therefore continues to explode.

The DNR, being tasked with managing wildlife in the state, now has to respond to the overpopulation by recruiting new, more efficient hunters to bring balance back to wildlife populations.

You can’t argue with these numbers my friend. No matter how hard you try.

If you check the sources you will find them accurate, however, I will include links if you would like so you can check them for yourself. Since you are a certified bear expert biologist maybe you can “comprehend” these numbers.


jerry russell said:


> Let’s agree to disagree and on the bottom line of the matter and I was never under any illusions that everyone would be capable of comprehending what I wrote.


I may just be a simple dog man, but I’m not illiterate like you claimed I was earlier.


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## wks41 (Oct 7, 2019)

“The DNR, being tasked with managing wildlife in the state, now has to respond to the overpopulation by recruiting new, more efficient hunters to bring balance back to wildlife populations.”

Aren’t the dogs the ones hunting?


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## jbogg (Oct 7, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> Some folks would very much question the ethics of making profit off our wildlife resources by running an outfitting service. They might call it greed and monetizing wildlife. You question the ethics of hunting bears with dogs. Internal bickering is what will tear us apart and make us all lose in the end. You pick apart and spin data and only see what you want to see; and refuse to see anything from another viewpoint on a "grownup level." The same attitude exists on other planes. Open your mind a bit. The evil dogmen are not going to wipe all your bears out. People will still come pay you to come kill them. I love the way you stereotype all houndsmen as illiterate, also. It speaks volumes about you and your character. And how much you think you know that you just don't.



That is a slippery slope Hillbilly.  So is the fishing guide that takes folks deep sea fishing equally greedy.  If not for outfitters on the African continent you would likely have entire species of big game wiped out.  Sportsman’s dollars flowing through outfitters created a value for the wildlife that incentivized locals to manage big game populations for everyone’s benefit.

You have mentioned the ease at which you could consistently take a bear at “point blank range”, yet several hundred rifle hunters  are only able to take a handful of bears each year on a WMA that is supposedly over populated with bear.

I am not ignoring the fact that there are plenty of bear/human conflicts in the area. Also, I’m not proclaiming that there is not a place for dog hunting as a means of helping to manage that population. However,  to allow a hunt  that has resulted in so many Sows being killed in such a small area is irresponsible management.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 7, 2019)

wks41 said:


> “The DNR, being tasked with managing wildlife in the state, now has to respond to the overpopulation by recruiting new, more efficient hunters to bring balance back to wildlife populations.”
> 
> Aren’t the dogs the ones hunting?


If you have never hunted with dogs, you might have that misconception. Most of the houndsmen I have known are some of the most knowledgeable about the habits of wildlife of any hunters I have known. In order to consistantly get your dogs on a track, you must scout to the same point that you would to put a bullet or an arrow through a bear without a dog. Most houndsmen would refuse to shoot a bear that didn't have a dog on it, and consider it cheating. It's not about the bear. It's about the hounds and the love of them. If you haven't been there, you would never understand.


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## Heath (Oct 7, 2019)

jerry russell said:


> We can agree to disagree but the Facts presented in that management plan referenced dozens of scientific studies in footnotes.  I didn’t really expect everyone to agree with my opinion but most reasonable people would agree that a state document that references dozens of scientific research projects should be considered as facts especially when comparing it to folklore and other unscientific rambling.
> 
> This probably shows the level of impass that exist and the start of the divide between groups and unwillingness to debate on an grown up level.
> 
> As to the continuation of these hunts, we will see.  The myopic view expressed by some in this forum isn’t shared elsewhere.  The word of how this “hunt”was conducted has now gotten out. Even those that have absolutely no issue with running dogs (like me) strongly oppose the killing of sows and cubs.  The dog hunting community should brace themselves for the backlash that was brought on by the irresponsible manner in which the hunt was conducted and get a spokesman that is literate and not so quick to let conversations break down into silly name calling.



You are very clever with your name calling and propaganda.  Even so clever as to shout from the rooftops and condemn the biologists and hunters.  You profess nothing but compassion and love for the Black Bear.  Yet somehow forgot to mention you make good money off exploiting those same bears for personal gain.  You’ve spouted off a number of opinions and very little fact.  No hunter,  has to defend anything they did within the confines of the law.  The fact that you view yourself as judge, jury, and executioner has already outed you to the public as to what your true motives are.
I can give you at least two models and possibly a third for the baseline in this biological study.  My “opinion” is this effort is a melding of both or all three but I don’t have any proof of that assumption.  States where hound hunting is still alive and well boast outstanding bear numbers and population recruitment.  In fact,  Black Bears would not have anywhere near the numbers they boast today if not for these same Houndsmen that initiated and played the biggest role in protecting them through various hound hunters associations.  Those associations were the first of their kind to protect and perpetuate the Black Bear populations across the US. These pesky facts keep getting in the way when people such as yourself try to belittle houndsmen and from what I see your fellow hunters in general.
I don’t particularly care for the way this hunt panned out.  But I have to hope the biologists are headed somewhere with it because there is a method to the madness.  They don’t get necessary data by guessing, or taking pictures, or hoping the numbers are right.  They get it by putting hands on bears.  You’ve assumed a huge percentage of females were pregnant.  What if the data comes back that 50% of sows were 2 year olds.  The peer reviewed research I read from West Virginia down through Virginia and into the southern Appalachian mountains all have common data points which point to 4 year old sows being 147-190 pounds on average.  How many of the sows killed were in that range?  If a very small percentage,  my biology background leads me to believe something is wrong.  Opinion, yes, but a valid Hypothesis nonetheless.  
Saw a bear this morning 300 yards from the Chattahoochee WMA boundary.  about 125 pounds and have pictures all week of a few different bears that just avoided the pressure on this side.  Two of which are known bears that I have a history with.  I was worried they’d be killed but they made it through.  The alarmist really have no clue about what’s actually going on out in these hills.  It’s not surprising but it’s a little outlandish that they get on public forums and tell those of us that live it everyday and have for 20, 30, and 40 years what and how we should think.  
PS.  I don’t make money off bear kills.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 7, 2019)

jbogg said:


> That is a slippery slope Hillbilly.  So is the fishing guide that takes folks deep sea fishing equally greedy.  If not for outfitters on the African continent you would likely have entire species of big game wiped out.  Sportsman’s dollars flowing through outfitters created a value for the wildlife that incentivized locals to manage big game populations for everyone’s benefit.
> 
> You have mentioned the ease at which you could consistently take a bear at “point blank range”, yet several hundred rifle hunters  are only able to take a handful of bears each year on a WMA that is supposedly over populated with bear.
> 
> I am not ignoring the fact that there are plenty of bear/human conflicts in the area. Also, I’m not proclaiming that there is not a place for dog hunting as a means of helping to manage that population. However,  to allow a hunt  that has resulted in so many Sows being killed in such a small area is incompetence in full display.


Maybe that was the goal. An overpopulation of bears is not a healthy population of bears. Nor is it healthy for the ecosystem as a whole. Bears are apex predators. Their populations affect the populations of everything else in the surrounding area. And, I do believe that most guides of any ilk have their own monetary interests at heart equally with their interest in the health of the species. They are intertwined. But, they are also sometimes helpful in protecting that which needs to be protected. Bears in the southern Appalachians are not in need of strict protection at the moment, IMO. They are more numerous now than they have been since our ancestors arrived here. We have the highest density population of black bears anywhere in the lower 48.


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## NGA44 (Oct 7, 2019)

jbogg said:


> That is a slippery slope Hillbilly.  So is the fishing guide that takes folks deep sea fishing equally greedy.  If not for outfitters on the African continent you would likely have entire species of big game wiped out.  Sportsman’s dollars flowing through outfitters created a value for the wildlife that incentivized locals to manage big game populations for everyone’s benefit.
> 
> You have mentioned the ease at which you could consistently take a bear at “point blank range”, yet several hundred rifle hunters  are only able to take a handful of bears each year on a WMA that is supposedly over populated with bear.
> 
> I am not ignoring the fact that there are plenty of bear/human conflicts in the area. Also, I’m not proclaiming that there is not a place for dog hunting as a means of helping to manage that population. However,  to allow a hunt  that has resulted in so many Sows being killed in such a small area is incompetence in full display.



If this exact same hunt and exact same results had occurred somewhere else would you still be calling the houndsmen and DNR names and accusing them of incompetence? I have gathered from your other posts that you do 99% of your hunting on Chattahoochee. If the hunt had been somewhere else I guarantee you wouldn’t be saying these radical things. You are speaking out of emotion, not reason.


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## goshenmountainman (Oct 7, 2019)

NGA44 said:


> I encourage you to call DNR tomorrow and request the list of drawn hunters for this hunt or ask how many were in state vs out of state at least. I saw the list at the Friday meeting before the hunt when we all signed in and finalized our party members. 10 were GA residents, 5 were out of state. That’s not a majority like everyone has been so upset about. Call and ask if you don’t believe me. I was there hunting every day and saw way more GA residents than out of state guys.


I heard from one of the DNR Rangers, that there were three no shows, what do you want to bet they were from Georgia and some of these anti-dog hunting bow hunters we been hearing from.. I have been a bow hunter since I was 11 years old, didn't know anyone around that even liked bowhunters, always heard people say bow hunting wasn't good for anything, let to many get away, this and that.. I changed alot of peoples minds about bow hunting and dog bear hunting is now running the same path, always gonna be some nay sayers in the crowd with every new thing that comes around.


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## NGA44 (Oct 7, 2019)

wks41 said:


> “The DNR, being tasked with managing wildlife in the state, now has to respond to the overpopulation by recruiting new, more efficient hunters to bring balance back to wildlife populations.”
> 
> Aren’t the dogs the ones hunting?



Can the dogs drive themselves up and down the road? Carry a rifle? Shoot the bear? Drag it out? Clean it?

Your comment is nonsensical. I won’t respond any further to you.


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## Timberman (Oct 7, 2019)

Christian hughey said:


> I only ask it be mandatory that a majority of the people drawn actually be from georgia. I understand a couple out of state spots but this hunt was rigged out of the gate. I might want my son to participate in one of these hunts one day and that will never happen if they keep selling our resources out from under us completely.



Hard to do at this juncture being that there’s been no dog hunting for years hence no dog hunters. They had to go out of state to get them. If this thing continues then some in staters may invest in bear dogs.

The fact that they were able to take so many bears is evidence to me that there are too many bears. I dog hunted bears in SC enough to know that place was thick with bears to kill as many as they did.

As far as killing sows and smaller bears I’d wager DNR told them to get all they could while the gettin was good. Once the 2 year deal is over it will be revisited with updated goals.


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## jbogg (Oct 7, 2019)

NGA44 said:


> If this exact same hunt and exact same results had occurred somewhere else would you still be calling the houndsmen and DNR names and accusing them of incompetence? I have gathered from your other posts that you do 99% of your hunting on Chattahoochee. If the hunt had been somewhere else I guarantee you wouldn’t be saying these radical things. You are speaking out of emotion, not reason.


 
I absolutely would be just as vocal had this hunt taken place elsewhere because of my concern that this hunt will be expanded to the rest of the National Forest.  I have hunted Chattahoochee often, but I spend most of my time on NF outside of WMAs.  I have not hunted Chattahoochee so far this season, and likely won’t do so.


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## goshenmountainman (Oct 7, 2019)

jerry russell said:


> We can agree to disagree but the Facts presented in that management plan referenced dozens of scientific studies in footnotes.  I didn’t really expect everyone to agree with my opinion but most reasonable people would agree that a state document that references dozens of scientific research projects should be considered as facts especially when comparing it to folklore and other unscientific rambling.
> 
> This probably shows the level of impass that exist and the start of the divide between groups and unwillingness to debate on an grown up level.
> 
> As to the continuation of these hunts, we will see.  The myopic view expressed by some in this forum isn’t shared elsewhere.  The word of how this “hunt”was conducted has now gotten out. Even those that have absolutely no issue with running dogs (like me) strongly oppose the killing of sows and cubs.  The dog hunting community should brace themselves for the backlash that was brought on by the irresponsible manner in which the hunt was conducted and get a spokesman that is literate and not so quick to let conversations break down into silly name calling.


To my knowledge there were no sow bear with cubs killed, so thats just an assumption that you came up with, FAKE NEWS period point blank. I know two of the groups and they would not under any circumstances shoot a sow with cubs. If you run a sow with cubs she will put them up a tree and keep going, some dogs will stay with her and some will tree the cubs, then you know not to shoot her. You have no clue how this works. And there is no divide with me, I love bow hunting ,rifle hunting, dog hunting and I will do it all. And I think everyone should have their opportunity, even the bear guides.


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## wks41 (Oct 7, 2019)

NGA44 said:


> Can the dogs drive themselves up and down the road? Carry a rifle? Shoot the bear? Drag it out? Clean it?
> 
> Your comment is nonsensical. I won’t respond any further to you.




So you drive the dogs to their hunting spot.  You let them tree a bear.  You carry your rifle. You shoot the bear the dogs hunted.  You drag out the bear you shot that the dogs hunted for you.  Then you clean the bear?


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## Buckman18 (Oct 7, 2019)

wks41 said:


> So you drive the dogs to their hunting spot.  You let them tree a bear.  You carry your rifle. You shoot the bear the dogs hunted.  You drag out the bear you shot that the dogs hunted for you.  Then you clean the bear?



Well, I tried letting the dogs drive my truck but they slobbered on the steering wheel.


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## ddd-shooter (Oct 7, 2019)

Some of y’all have some serious problems with other methods of hunting and other hunters. Let that sink in. 
Bear hunting with dogs is as old as America. 
Bow hunting has been around for thousands of years. 
Bow hunters can’t manage the population alone. 
Doggers won’t kill them all. 
The media would have a field day interviewing some of y’all. Be a great sound bite on CNN. “Local hunter speaks out against the evils of hunting”


LEARN TO LIVE WITH EACH OTHER! 
HIGH FIVE EACH OTHER AND MOVE ON TO THE F.S. 
Air your grievances with them, support good conservation, and support your fellow hunter!


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## Heath (Oct 7, 2019)

wks41 said:


> So you drive the dogs to their hunting spot.  You let them tree a bear.  You carry your rifle. You shoot the bear the dogs hunted.  You drag out the bear you shot that the dogs hunted for you.  Then you clean the bear?



Again, you are assuming a lot.  Very few hound hunters free cast dogs anymore. Some do but a lot of time and effort goes into finding a track that’s fresh enough to run.  I know quite a few dog hunters and better hunters of all game you will not find.  You want data points?  A study in virginia where biologists accompanied 190 hound hunts.  Biologists determined that hunters spent on average 8 hrs a day hunting, where dogs were hunting 4.2 hours and only running bears 2.4 hours per day.   Those groups averaged 8 hunters and between 8-11 dogs.  You really want to get technical,  that’s 64 man hours,  33.6 dog hours on the low end with 19.2 of those dog hours actually running a bear.  That’s for 1 bear and possibly a second treed where only like 5% were ever harvested.  From a business viewpoint,  I’d hate to pay those wages for such little production.


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## strothershwacker (Oct 7, 2019)

Wow! Where have I been? So we've filled 5 pages TODAY making the same arguments but under a different thread title! Goodgreif! I even read in one of these post bout how many bears where "murdered". Let's save that term for homicide and not confuse animals with people. No animal has ever been murdered. Love it or hate it, let it be over. See what comes of all of it. Lil' early to make a bunch of predictions. As for the DNR there always hiring. Get ye a biology degree, work day and night, be willing to relocate, and be criticized by everyone for chump change if you think you got the answers. Shut up, and quit ruining my life! John Boy & Billy, y'all have a nice day.


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## Heath (Oct 7, 2019)

Since Jerry wants to spin data,  lets spin it.  What’s your success rate with clients sir?  How many hunts and what’s the duration of those hunts before a client gets his bear?  I’ll start.  Let’s assume clients spend 4 hours on stand per hunt.  That’s 16 hunts for your clients to equal the hunt effort or man hours of one 8 man group catching 1 bear based on peer reviewed scientific data.  Do your clients have a better success rate than 1 bear in 16 hunts?  I hope so or you won’t be in business long.  I’d say you have somewhere close to 1/4 of that amount of effort per client.  So say 4 hunts equals a happy successful client.  You are killing bears at 4 times the rate of a houndsmen hunting in the average hunting group size of 8.  Maybe guiding bear hunts in Georgia is the real enemy of the Black Bear.


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## strothershwacker (Oct 7, 2019)

BLACK (bear) LIVES MATTER!


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## jerry russell (Oct 7, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> Some folks would very much question the ethics of making profit off our wildlife resources by running an outfitting service. They might call it greed. You question the ethics of hunting bears with dogs. Internal bickering is what will tear us apart and make us all lose in the end. You pick apart and soin data and only see what you want to see; and refuse to see anything from another viewpoint on a "grownup level." The same attitude exists on other planes. Open your mind a bit. The evil dogmen are not going to wipe all your bears out. People will still come pay you to come kill them. I love the way you stereotype all houndsmen as illiterate, also. It speaks volumes about you and your character. And how much you think you know that you just don't.



At no time did I stereotype anyone nor have I made a derogatory statement about any individual without provocation.  

My original post was based on opinion, fact and with research provided by professionals in this field.  
I never once expected that it could be maintained on a respectable level because when debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of a loser. 

This matter was about an important issue and you as an administrator of this site lowered it to the level of name calling and the questioning of my character?  It would be difficult for me to put into words just how little your opinion on any subject concerning ethics matters to me.  

As an administrator, some level of professionalism is expected or at least hoped for.


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## ScarFoot (Oct 7, 2019)

I'm not an expert by any stretch, but they picked teams of houndsman at random, they didn't get the best houndsmen  in the country, they just picked from the people that applied, if that many bears were killed by random groups in that short period of time in country they didn't know, my friends the population is probably higher than most would believe, My prediction would be that the fill in of juvenile bears looking for a place to camp this spring  will quickly occupy available habitat as far as the effects of this hunt being felt for years to come I say, bull puckey!


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## NGA44 (Oct 7, 2019)

jerry russell said:


> My original post was based on opinion, fact and with research provided by professionals in this field.



All you did was add a link to the bear management plan. Nothing about your post or opinion was rooted in the actual literature you’re attempting to use.


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## strothershwacker (Oct 7, 2019)

I ain't even got a garage you can call home and ask my wife!


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## Heath (Oct 7, 2019)

NGA44 said:


> All you did was add a link to the bear management plan. Nothing about your post or opinion was rooted in the actual literature you’re attempting to use.



Yeah,  but he didn’t think you could read that.  Still looking for that literate hound hunter.


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## NGA44 (Oct 7, 2019)

Heath said:


> Yeah,  but he didn’t think you could read that.  Still looking for that literate hound hunter.



I didn’t even finish high school, took up too much of my hunting time


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## Buckman18 (Oct 7, 2019)

NGA44 said:


> I didn’t even finish high school, took up too much of my hunting time



Dont feel bad. I have a University Degree. But its not because im smart. I hung out with ugly chicks.


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## Ghost G (Oct 7, 2019)

I grew up hunting with just a bow, or gun.  There was no option for baiting or dogs.  It was, and for me, remains the most sporting way to hunt.  It is on their schedule and in their environment. 

Later in life I hunted over bait for hogs and felt that I was both cheating and being cheated.  It was so easy to sit in a stand and have the game come to me!  I also felt cheated in that I was missing so much of what I had come to know to be the hunting experience.  The endless scouting, the sneaking through the woods still hunting and the daily decision making required to know just the right place to go.   Later I had the opportunity to set up a bait site myself and I was surprised that it was rewarding in a different way.  It was preparatory and maintenance work that paid off by getting the hogs to come into the feeder.  The satisfaction came from getting the hogs there not just by harvesting them.  

I’ve never had the opportunity to hunt with dogs but I’m sure it would be a thrill to see them work.  That experience would be so much more rewarding if I trained the dogs myself.  I respect those guys that do.

If you haven’t experienced a different style of hunting you really can’t know how rewarding or enjoyable it can be.  We likely will want to defend our style or preference of hunting.  It’s natural to preserve what we enjoy and how we do it.  We need to find a way to get along because the threat we face is outside the various hunting communities.


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## Bruin (Oct 7, 2019)

I haven’t signed in for couple months and look at all I’ve missed out on!  I’ll throw my simple opinion out there....

I don’t have any interest in running a bear with a hound.  Nor do I have any interest in running deer with hounds but I consider hounds and mountain lions to go together like peanut butter and jelly. 

I also have zero interest in hunting a bear over a bait but would love the opportunity to hunt leopard in Africa with bait.  

So I guess I’m a bit prejudice.

And leave the poor outfitters alone.  We have to make a living also.


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## strothershwacker (Oct 8, 2019)

I'd like to see some pics and here some stories bout the hunt. Seems like the doggers stick together. Almost like they purposely ain't sharing their stories. And after all the rants, l guess why would they?


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## strothershwacker (Oct 8, 2019)

I ain't arguing ethics bout it or how "easy" it is or ain't or even game management . I'm just a greedy bowhunter that likes as many opportunities as I can get at what I do. All I see is 60 bear I can't bowhunt. My motives behind not liking this hunt are mostly greed, when I really survey my thoughts on the subject. (Including my thoughts on John Bowers, the guys probly forgotten more about bear than i know) Glad the doggers got a run at it but I do very seriously hope that the DNR keeps the dogging opportunities at a reasonable pace. Cause there's NO doubt, bear doggers kill more bear. Happy Hunting Fellers. Let's move on and get back to bear hunting.


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## splatek (Oct 8, 2019)

I am also curious to hear the stories, but 1) they may not be on here, 2) buckman was on a hunt with his crew and shared and 3) do you blame them with the reception of the dog hunt? 
I am so new that I am not sure how to feel about it, but it reminds me of when the mountains re-openeded brook trout waters after years of thinking that having them closed would save them. OPening didn't do anything to the populattion in the smokies, to my knowledge. This could be a different thing alltogether... like I said I don't really know what I don't even know.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 8, 2019)

wks41 said:


> So you drive the dogs to their hunting spot.  You let them tree a bear.  You carry your rifle. You shoot the bear the dogs hunted.  You drag out the bear you shot that the dogs hunted for you.  Then you clean the bear?




You have very obviously never hunted bears with hounds. It's about 10x to 100x as much work to kill a bear with dogs as it is without them. I am no longer physically able to bear hunt with hounds in these mountains. It's a young man's game. Some of the hardest work I've ever put in hunting.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 8, 2019)

jerry russell said:


> At no time did I stereotype anyone nor have I made a derogatory statement about any individual without provocation.
> 
> My original post was based on opinion, fact and with research provided by professionals in this field.
> I never once expected that it could be maintained on a respectable level because when debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of a loser.
> ...


I didn't lower it. You did when you started insinuating that hound hunters were all illiterate and that no one who didn't share your opinion was intelligent enough to understand your opinions. You were the one who said these things and started with the condescending comments and thinnly-veiled dislike of those you seem to see as ignorant white trash hillbillies. That doesn't set well with people in general, me included. Again, where are you from? I would be surprised if it's north Georgia. People are usually raised differently there. And mountain folks don't much take to outsiders coming in, trying to take over, profiting off our resources while looking down their noses at us, and tell us that our traditions and ways of life are wrong and should be changed to suit the outsiders. We’ve seen it over and over. That may not be your feelings or intentions, that that is definitely the way you are coming across.


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## Christian hughey (Oct 8, 2019)

strothershwacker said:


> I'd like to see some pics and here some stories bout the hunt. Seems like the doggers stick together. Almost like they purposely ain't sharing their stories. And after all the rants, l guess why would they?


You'd think GON would run an article this month!!! Seem like bear dont get a lot of attention but we will see.


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## Christian hughey (Oct 8, 2019)

splatek said:


> I am also curious to hear the stories, but 1) they may not be on here, 2) buckman was on a hunt with his crew and shared and 3) do you blame them with the reception of the dog hunt?
> I am so new that I am not sure how to feel about it, but it reminds me of when the mountains re-openeded brook trout waters after years of thinking that having them closed would save them. OPening didn't do anything to the populattion in the smokies, to my knowledge. This could be a different thing alltogether... like I said I don't really know what I don't even know.


Speaking of buckman I only saw two bears from his tribe. Then read they killed 9. What's up man ? You holding out? We want more pics lol. Also how many bruiser boars ended up getting killed, has to be a couple!


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## Mr Bya Lungshot (Oct 8, 2019)

strothershwacker said:


> I ain't arguing ethics bout it or how "easy" it is or ain't or even game management . I'm just a greedy bowhunter that likes as many opportunities as I can get at what I do. All I see is 60 bear I can't bowhunt. My motives behind not liking this hunt are mostly greed, when I really survey my thoughts on the subject. (Including my thoughts on John Bowers, the guys probly forgotten more about bear than i know) Glad the doggers got a run at it but I do very seriously hope that the DNR keeps the dogging opportunities at a reasonable pace. Cause there's NO doubt, bear doggers kill more bear. Happy Hunting Fellers. Let's move on and get back to bear hunting.


I don’t know jack about bear hunting except that most hunters I’ve seen say they were way too many bears and more needed Gon to help the deer population. Now that 60 bears are gone what’s the problem with that?
It takes time to equalize...
Relax and have some deer survive.
No???


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## Christian hughey (Oct 8, 2019)

Mr Bya Lungshot said:


> I don’t know jack about bear hunting except that most hunters I’ve seen say they were way too many bears and more needed Gon to help the deer population. Now that 60 bears are gone what’s the problem with that?
> It takes time to equalize...
> Relax and have some deer survive.
> No???


I believe what they gettin at is, not the killing of the bears. The number of sows lost in the core area of bear country. I agree with both sides to a degree,, I also agree I want hooch to be preserved, the reason there are so many bears is because it's the perfect habitat for them to thrive, look at the hunt right next door on chestatee. No where near as many killed on any of the hunts same right up the road at swallow creek. For a reason. Yes I believe to an extent that bears will fill back in from the outer fringes of the wma and national forests because it is good habitat for them also but I think no bag limit for these teams is pretty stupid and if the hunt remains managed this way it very well could affect the hunting tremendously. I guess we will find out in years to come.


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## Jake Allen (Oct 8, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> I didn't lower it. You did when you started insinuating that hound hunters were all illiterate and that no one who didn't share your opinion was intelligent enough to understand your opinions. You were the one who said these things and started with the condescending comments and thinnly-veiled dislike of those you seem to see as ignorant white trash hillbillies. That doesn't set well with people in general, me included. Again, where are you from? I would be surprised if it's north Georgia. People are usually raised differently there. And mountain folks don't much take to outsiders coming in, trying to take over, profiting off our resources while looking down their noses at us, and tell us that our traditions and ways of life are wrong and should be changed to suit the outsiders. We’ve seen it over and over. That may not be your feelings or intentions, that that is definitely the way you are coming across.



I beg to differ. I did not read this from Jerry. I did read the name calling and stereotyping from your side. I do not think it is the best way to present a fact, or a well crafted thought.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 8, 2019)

Jake Allen said:


> I beg to differ. I did not read this from Jerry. I did read the name calling and stereotyping from from your side. I do not think it is the best way to present a fact, or a well crafted thought.


It came through loud and clear to me and many others. If you didn't see the condescension and stereotyping in his posts, then I don't know what to say. Like I said, may not be his intention, but it's definitely the tone. Maybe you know him. I don't. Inflection is difficult to read on an internet post. When you start saying things like "hoping they can find someone literate to speak for them," and "not expecting anybody on here to be able to understand what you're saying", and bears being "murdered," how can you not read it like that? Sounds just like every other yankee come-here who thinks they're better than the locals to me. I've been dealing with them all my life. He's mad because somebody killed some bears that he can't charge his clients to kill now, or doesn't hunt the same way he does, and is overdramatizing and sensationalizing it as the end of the world for bear hunting in Georgia.
But what do I know? I'm apparently just an illiterate hillbilly who can't understand complex issues or craft thoughts well; and used to senselessly "murder" bears with dogs to boot. I will say that I never made money off the death of a bear.


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## Heath (Oct 8, 2019)

Christian hughey said:


> I believe what they gettin at is, not the killing of the bears. The number of sows lost in the core area of bear country. I agree with both sides to a degree,, I also agree I want hooch to be preserved, the reason there are so many bears is because it's the perfect habitat for them to thrive, look at the hunt right next door on chestatee. No where near as many killed on any of the hunts same right up the road at swallow creek. For a reason. Yes I believe to an extent that bears will fill back in from the outer fringes of the wma and national forests because it is good habitat for them also but I think no bag limit for these teams is pretty stupid and if the hunt remains managed this way it very well could affect the hunting tremendously. I guess we will find out in years to come.



Christian,  who has told you that Chattahoochee is the core area of bears in North Georgia?  I’d like to hear from them.  The research I’ve read and the bears I’ve caught and see during bow and early gun season don’t agree with that sentiment at all.  I fully understand that you didn’t want the hunt to be held there and respect your right to feel that way.  My core hunting area is Lumpkin, Union, White, Towns, Rabun, Macon, and Clay counties.  Not much ground I havnt covered within that area.  Only one small piece of Chattahoochee would make it into my top 10 spots to kill a good bear.  I’m not saying I’m right, but I would bet everything I own against this hunt even disturbing the population in the least bit here in North East Georgia.  If hound hunters finally get a kill season it will be under the same laws that you are allowed to hunt under with the same bag limits or even less like they already have in regards to numbers allowed per area.  Not to mention it would more than likely be a one week kill season which is a fraction of what we get as bow and/or gun hunters.  I’m not arguing against you,  just trying to understand your thought process.


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## Heath (Oct 8, 2019)

Jake Allen said:


> I beg to differ. I did not read this from Jerry. I did read the name calling and stereotyping from your side. I do not think it is the best way to present a fact, or a well crafted thought.



Are you for real?  You don’t read every post he has made as condescending and name calling?  Maybe I am illiterate.  Almost every person here responded defensively because he called everyone but himself uneducated and void of reasoning or the ability to argue a point.  I’ve read tons of great arguments against his opinions with actual facts and data to support them.  He has yet to make a biological fact based point.  But he’s made plenty of degrading comments and did cite the DNRs bear plan which has been carried out to the letter.  The fact that another Administrator has showed up makes me think he’s blowed the whistle on everybody for disagreeing with him and you’ve come to his rescue.  Typical liberal tactics.  Did you just happen across this thread all of a sudden?  Or were you “guided” here?


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## Buckman18 (Oct 8, 2019)

Jake Allen said:


> I beg to differ. I did not read this from Jerry. I did read the name calling and stereotyping from your side. I do not think it is the best way to present a fact, or a well crafted thought.



Really? Did you actually READ what he wrote? If you are one of the illiterate hunters he was referring too, i'm sure we can make an audio version for you?


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## Christian hughey (Oct 8, 2019)

Heath said:


> Christian,  who has told you that Chattahoochee is the core area of bears in North Georgia?  I’d like to hear from them.  The research I’ve read and the bears I’ve caught and see during bow and early gun season don’t agree with that sentiment at all.  I fully understand that you didn’t want the hunt to be held there and respect your right to feel that way.  My core hunting area is Lumpkin, Union, White, Towns, Rabun, Macon, and Clay counties.  Not much ground I havnt covered within that area.  Only one small piece of Chattahoochee would make it into my top 10 spots to kill a good bear.  I’m not saying I’m right, but I would bet everything I own against this hunt even disturbing the population in the least bit here in North East Georgia.  If hound hunters finally get a kill season it will be under the same laws that you are allowed to hunt under with the same bag limits or even less like they already have in regards to numbers allowed per area.  Not to mention it would more than likely be a one week kill season which is a fraction of what we get as bow and/or gun hunters.  I’m not arguing against you,  just trying to understand your thought process.


Not saying the population will be wiped out by this and this is why I like talking bout these matters in person so there is no misunderstanding. I get that bear have different core areas, that just being one of many throughout north Georgia but hooch arguably has the highest success rate of any wma throughout. Cohutta being second best but when you factor size of property and the mass number of people that hunt cohutta every year you can expect to have more kills. The numbers dont lie. I dont consider private land in my remarks because I dont hunt private land my discussion is regarding public land hunting. Yes there are plenty of nf surrounding this wma but just as another member has mentioned I have put alot of time and effort into this wma. I want to see hunting get better not worse that's all and that's coming from a bear hunters point of view, the deer hunters are gonna have a totally different point of view and that's ok.


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## Mexican Squealer (Oct 8, 2019)

Jake Allen said:


> I beg to differ. I did not read this from Jerry. I did read the name calling and stereotyping from your side. I do not think it is the best way to present a fact, or a well crafted thought.



I’ve got no dog in this fight but if you aren’t picking up on the insults and condescending comments, you must be reading something completely different...wow


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## Jake Allen (Oct 8, 2019)

Mexican Squealer said:


> I’ve got no dog in this fight but if you aren’t picking up on the insults and condescending comments, you must be reading something completely different...wow


I call it like I see it and I certainly do not have a dog in this fight.


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## Buckman18 (Oct 8, 2019)

Jake Allen said:


> I call it like I see it and I certainly do not have a dog in this fight.



Apparently you need your eyes checked. Or Huuked On Fonix...


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## Hillbilly stalker (Oct 8, 2019)

Jake Allen said:


> I call it like I see it and I certainly do not have a dog in this fight.


I don't see how you could have missed all that. OP pretty much insulted or talked down to everyone who had a different opinion . His opinions were facts and everyone else's opinion/ personal expierence was useless. If you can't see he was on his high horse looking down his nose on others , I don't what else to say.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 8, 2019)

Jake Allen said:


> I call it like I see it and I certainly do not have a dog in this fight.


Same here. I just apparently have different eyes.


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## Mark K (Oct 8, 2019)

I sorta got turned off when he said “murdered” and “slaughtered”...how do you murder a bear?
I don’t bear hunt and have no desire to bear hunt, but if they killed that many then it means there was one heck of a population to play with.


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## Al Medcalf (Oct 8, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> Same here. I just apparently have different eyes.



Well, you are qualified as an administrator, Jake obviously isn't


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 8, 2019)

Al Medcalf said:


> Well, you are qualified as an administrator, Jake obviously isn't


Jake is very qualified as an administrator, and does an excellent job. Probably a lot better than I do. I have nothing but the utmost respect for him. Having a different opinion about one issue has nothing at all to do with that. Diversity of thought and personalities is an asset in a team. I never learned much from anybody that I agree with about everything.


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## Mark K (Oct 8, 2019)

Heck the Hillbilly and I disagree on stuff, but if I ever wanted to go bear hunting he’d probably be the first I asked about it.


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## Buckman18 (Oct 8, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> Jake is very qualified as an administrator, and does an excellent job. Probably a lot better than I do. I have nothing but the utmost respect for him. Having a different opinion about one issue has nothing at all to do with that. Diversity of thought and personalities is an asset in a team. I never learned much from anybody that I agree with about everything.



Thats why you need to man up and get a Chevy.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 8, 2019)

Mark K said:


> Heck the Hillbilly and I disagree on stuff, but if I ever wanted to go bear hunting he’d probably be the first I asked about it.


A lot of folks on here know a whole lot more about bear hunting than I do. Lots of them. I can give you sound advice about eating biscuits and being poor.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 8, 2019)

Buckman18 said:


> Thats why you need to man up and get a Chevy.


I’ve had more than one. I’m getting too old and lazy to walk home every evening.


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## Mark K (Oct 8, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> A lot of folks on here know a whole lot more about bear hunting than I do. Lots of them. I can give you sound advice about eating biscuits and being poor.


I got that down to a science!! We a lot more alike than you think!


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## Para Bellum (Oct 8, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> I’ve had more than one. I’m getting too old and lazy to walk home every evening.



OUCH!  Hatin on the ole bowties!


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## splatek (Oct 8, 2019)

Mark K said:


> I got that down to a science!! We a lot more alike than you think!



We must be related


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## wks41 (Oct 8, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> You have very obviously never hunted bears with hounds. It's about 10x to 100x as much work to kill a bear with dogs as it is without them. I am no longer physically able to bear hunt with hounds in these mountains. It's a young man's game. Some of the hardest work I've ever put in hunting.



I defiantly understand it’s a lot of walking and work.  The point I was trying to make was it seems the dogs do the hunting and the houndsmen walk up shoot the bear and move on. Your right I’ve never hunted bears with dogs but from what I’ve read and watched, it seems like you drive the roads and let the dogs out on fresh tracks/sign.  You watch the gps and when you hear the dogs tree a bear you move into the location and take the shot.  It doesn’t come across as hunting, more like shooting. This is what I have seen, not a blanket statement.  Before I get berated, I understand there’s tons of time and money that go into the dogs/training and I’m sure most of the guys are great hunters.  From the outside looking in ,it looks easy to be successful when using dogs.  This is not coming from jealously and I’m not trying to be rude by saying this.  I’m sure there is plenty of other non-hound hunters who feel this way.


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## Hillbilly stalker (Oct 8, 2019)

A lot of people feel that way about baiting deer too. But the thing is, both are legal and hunters need to support each other. For the houndsmen its more about the chase than the kill. There are alot of the same bears treed over and over, and not killed. You really should try it sometime, it will give you a personal perspective that no one else can explain.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 8, 2019)

wks41 said:


> I defiantly understand it’s a lot of walking and work.  The point I was trying to make was it seems the dogs do the hunting and the houndsmen walk up shoot the bear and move on. Your right I’ve never hunted bears with dogs but from what I’ve read and watched, it seems like you drive the roads and let the dogs out on fresh tracks/sign.  You watch the gps and when you hear the dogs tree a bear you move into the location and take the shot.  It doesn’t come across as hunting, more like shooting. This is what I have seen, not a blanket statement.  Before I get berated, I understand there’s tons of time and money that go into the dogs/training and I’m sure most of the guys are great hunters.  From the outside looking in ,it looks easy to be successful when using dogs.  This is not coming from jealously and I’m not trying to be rude by saying this.  I’m sure there is plenty of other non-hound hunters who feel this way.


No, that's not how it works at all. At least not back when I was doing it. From the time you turn loose to the time you tree the bear is usually several hours and up to 10-15 miles of running and climbing through some of the most impenetrable terrain in the area. A lot of bears you turn on are never treed. Killing the bear is a small blip in the overall hunt, almost an anti-climax. There is usually as much hunting goes into finding the track to turn the dogs on as you would do to set up on one without the dogs.  And, miles of walking the mountains with a strike dog on a leash. After having done both, I find it generally easier and a lot less work to kill a bear without dogs.


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## ddd-shooter (Oct 8, 2019)

wks41 said:


> I defiantly understand it’s a lot of walking and work.  The point I was trying to make was it seems the dogs do the hunting and the houndsmen walk up shoot the bear and move on. Your right I’ve never hunted bears with dogs but from what I’ve read and watched, it seems like you drive the roads and let the dogs out on fresh tracks/sign.  You watch the gps and when you hear the dogs tree a bear you move into the location and take the shot.  It doesn’t come across as hunting, more like shooting. This is what I have seen, not a blanket statement.  Before I get berated, I understand there’s tons of time and money that go into the dogs/training and I’m sure most of the guys are great hunters.  From the outside looking in ,it looks easy to be successful when using dogs.  This is not coming from jealously and I’m not trying to be rude by saying this.  I’m sure there is plenty of other non-hound hunters who feel this way.


You seem to like killing turkeys. 
Do you sneak up on them and actually hunt them, or do you sit still and let the call do all the hunting for you? Seems pretty easy to have the call cover large distances for you and birds you otherwise couldn’t. 
Lol


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## wks41 (Oct 8, 2019)

[QUOTE="Hillbilly stalker, post: 11925612, member: 120583" You really should try it sometime, it will give you a personal perspective that no one else can explain.[/QUOTE]

I understand what you are saying. I didn’t want the baiting to pass in the northern zone.  I was just trying to give houndhunters the perspective of those who have never done it.  

I’m sure many would love to try it but that’s another factor that I think plays into the hound hunting stigma.  Anyone can buy a rifle and license and head to some pubic land and starts hunting.  Now the chances of success won’t be great unless you have a mentor.  Hound hunting, for even a seasoned hunter is hunting you can’t just do.  I don’t know any hound hunters and don’t know anyone who does.  To be honest I equated big game hound hunting as more of a western US thing. I think a lack of exposure and ability to hound hunt has created a disconnect with the rest of the hunting community.


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## wks41 (Oct 8, 2019)

ddd-shooter said:


> You seem to like killing turkeys.
> Do you sneak up on them and actually hunt them, or do you sit still and let the call do all the hunting for you? Seems pretty easy to have the call cover large distances for you and birds you otherwise couldn’t.
> Lol




Once again I wasn’t trying to be rude in my comments.  That’s a very poor comparison.


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## Hillbilly stalker (Oct 8, 2019)

Keep your ear to the ground, most hound hunters love to share the experience with others. I don’t have bear dogs anymore, but if you get up this way I’d be glad to take you squirrel and or coon hunting with some dogs. It ain’t the same as bear, but I bet you would enjoy it. Bear doggers are a little suspicious of people they don’t know yet. Least the group I ran with were.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 8, 2019)

wks41 said:


> I understand what you are saying. I didn’t want the baiting to pass in the northern zone.  I was just trying to give houndhunters the perspective of those who have never done it.
> 
> I’m sure many would love to try it but that’s another factor that I think plays into the hound hunting stigma.  Anyone can buy a rifle and license and head to some pubic land and starts hunting.  Now the chances of success won’t be great unless you have a mentor.  Hound hunting, for even a seasoned hunter is hunting you can’t just do.  I don’t know any hound hunters and don’t know anyone who does.  To be honest I equated big game hound hunting as more of a western US thing. I think a lack of exposure and ability to hound hunt has created a disconnect with the rest of the hunting community.


Hound hunting was a thing right here in the southern Appalachians for well over a hundred years before a hound ever set foot in the western part of the country. And when they did, those hounds out west came from right here in these southern mountains, along with their handlers. This is the epicenter of hound hunting. I know hundreds of hound hunters. The Plott Hound breed originated right here in Haywood County, NC. Most of the legendary houndsmen in history have either hunted or originated right here in these mountains. My family has been hound hunting bears and other game here for generations, as have the families of many other members here. It is a very old and honorable  tradition. Hunting deer from a tree stand is a very new thing, comparatively.


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## wks41 (Oct 8, 2019)

Hillbilly stalker said:


> Keep your ear to the ground, most hound hunters love to share the experience with others. I don’t have bear dogs anymore, but if you get up this way I’d be glad to take you squirrel and or coon hunting with some dogs. It ain’t the same as bear, but I bet you would enjoy it. Bear doggers are a little suspicious of people they don’t know yet. Least the group I ran with were.




I appreciate the offer!!


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## wks41 (Oct 8, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> I understand what you are saying. I didn’t want the baiting to pass in the northern zone.  I was just trying to give houndhunters the perspective of those who have never done it.
> 
> I’m sure many would love to try it but that’s another factor that I think plays into the hound hunting stigma.  Anyone can buy a rifle and license and head to some pubic land and starts hunting.  Now the chances of success won’t be great unless you have a mentor.  Hound hunting, for even a seasoned hunter is hunting you can’t just do.  I don’t know any hound hunters and don’t know anyone who does.  To be honest I equated big game hound hunting as more of a western US thing. I think a lack of exposure and ability to hound hunt has created a disconnect with the rest of the hunting community.


Hound hunting was a thing right here in the southern Appalachians for well over a hundred years before a hound ever set foot in the western part of the country. And when they did, those hounds out west came from right here in these southern mountains, along with their handlers. This is the epicenter of hound hunting. I know hundreds of hound hunters. The Plott Hound breed originated right here in Haywood County, NC. Most of the legendary houndsmen in history have either hunted or originated right here in these mountains. My family has been hound hunting bears and other game here for generations, as have the families of many other members here. It is a very old and honorable  tradition. Hunting deer from a tree stand is a very new thing, comparatively.[/QUOTE]

I’m born and raised in Ga and I didn’t know that.  I first went hunting for deer with my grandfather when I was 8 I think and really started hunting hard when I was 19.  I’m 35 and never seen anyone hunt with dogs outside of quail.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 8, 2019)

wks41 said:


> I’m born and raised in Ga and I didn’t know that.  I first went hunting for deer with my grandfather when I was 8 I think and really started hunting hard when I was 19.  I’m 35 and never seen anyone hunt with dogs outside of quail.


It's the opposite in the mountains. I had some kind of hunting dog (or a whole dog lot full,) from the time I was a kid until I was in my mid-30s. All were hounds. I spent my years growing up coon hunting with hounds and rabbit hunting with beagles, and hunting bears with hounds when I got into my teenage years. Buying dog food by the hundreds of pounds. Almost everybody I knew in my life owned hunting dogs. 0 of them were bird dogs. Nobody around here ever hunted birds with dogs. Plotts, blueticks, redbones, black and tans, beagles, cur crosses, even a few of those walkers. They are still in half the yards in southern Appalachia. It's a way of life here. An old way of life.


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## Heath (Oct 8, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> It's the opposite in the mountains. I had some kind of hunting dog (or a whole dog lot full,) from the time I was a kid until I was in my mid-30s. All were hounds. I spent my years growing up coon hunting with hounds and rabbit hunting with beagles, and hunting bears with hounds when I got into my teenage years. Buying dog food by the hundreds of pounds. Almost everybody I knew in my life owned hunting dogs. 0 of them were bird dogs. Nobody around here ever hunted birds with dogs. Plotts, blueticks, redbones, black and tans, beagles, cur crosses, even a few of those walkers. They are still in half the yards in southern Appalachia. It's a way of life here. An old way of life.



I can attest to that.  I was born and raised in Macon county, NC.  I didn’t know people deer and Turkey hunted till I got into my teens.  When I was 3 I wanted to be a bear hunter cause everyone I knew was.  Never heard much about any hunting that wasn’t Bear/Hog or coon/squirrel and it is all with dogs, you just pick your poison.  Thank you for helping me see that Hillbilly,  I’ve never been able to relate to others that claimed my way of life was easy or cheating.  I’ve always found it far easier to find sign and sit and wait than my entire life of chasing down everything I killed.  The public’s opinion stems from TV.  All they show is riding around and bear in trees.  All I see are swollen ankles, knees, blood, sweat, and tears.  And occasionally a few bears sitting out on limbs that I thank and run again and again.  My kill to tree percentage would be way less than 1% for the past 18-20 years.


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## Buckman18 (Oct 8, 2019)

Hunting with hounds is a great tradition.  

Like Hillbilly, and others, my family, and I when I lived there, hunt hogs and bears with dogs. Its a blast. Like turkey hunting, the trophy is not really the kill but rather the experience and chase. Being a part of the inaugural GA dog hunt  was cool.

That said, IMO, hound hunters rule the politics in NC. There is little to no opportunity for a still hunter to kill a bear, and Hillbilly posted some about that recently.  Also, the NC mtn rifle deer season is only 3 weeks. I think we've got the deer/bear still-hunting season set dang near perfect in OUR state. While I'm open to our state allowing some hound hunting, I'm not willing to give up my deer season nor my still-hunting bear opportunities. No way.


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## humdandy (Oct 8, 2019)

Buckman18 said:


> Hunting with hounds is a great tradition.
> 
> Like Hillbilly, and others, my family, and I when I lived there, hunt hogs and bears with dogs. Its a blast. Like turkey hunting, the trophy is not really the kill but rather the experience and chase. Being a part of the inaugural GA dog hunt  was cool.
> 
> That said, IMO, hound hunters rule the politics in NC. There is little to no opportunity for a still hunter to kill a bear, and Hillbilly posted some about that recently.  Also, the NC mtn rifle deer season is only 3 weeks. I think we've got the deer/bear still-hunting season set dang near perfect in OUR state. While I'm open to our state allowing some hound hunting, I'm not willing to give up my deer season nor my still-hunting bear opportunities. No way.


You might want to consider buying new dogs. These guys put a hurting on them.  Just saying.


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## mattuga (Oct 8, 2019)

I had one experience with bear doggin.  I was backpacking ~2003 and we were deep in the NC mountains (probably Pisgah NF) as that was our favorite area.  We saw trucks for dogs and new they were around.  We got hit with a nasty storm late afternoon and could see it coming because we were high elevation and it was late Dec or early January.  We set camp off trail very haphazardly with the storm popping, 2 tents.  Next morning we heard hounds and stuck our head out up to the trail and saw a 70+ yo man who said "yall best stay in them tents we got a bear treed 250 hundred yards away."  He was behind the group but 5 minutes later we heard the bang.  When breaking camp we realized one of our tents was under a widowmaker, big lesson learned.

I think well managed dog hunting needs to be a thing forever.  I would not be a duck hunter were it not for my dog.  I love a sport with a working dog.  Seeing that old man is seared into my mind and especially the way he said bear it was more like briar without the r..."bair" or "bare" not sure if that is a local thing but I've never heard the word "bear" the same way anywhere.


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## strothershwacker (Oct 8, 2019)

2 of my great uncle's moved to south ga in the in the early 1940s from union county took their families and moved to Hazlehurst in Jeff Davis county. Took their hounds with em and ended up getn into running hogs and rabbits down there. I've got some old pics if I can dig em up. My great uncle Elgin got his leg broke by a hog that broke bay and run over em in the palmettos. It didn't cut em but broke it bad. Friends and family set his leg and made a homemade cast on the kitchen table. He walked with a bad limp rest his life. While I've heard all the great stories of the past,  I was born in the 70s when deer hunting really took off round here. By the 80s bow hunting was even gaining in popularity. Time I was 12 year old I was toting a Jennings compound or a lever action .35. When it comes to hunting. Any hunting. With any weapon, hound or trap it's all tradition and not something we do.... It's WHO WE ARE.


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## Buckman18 (Oct 8, 2019)

humdandy said:


> You might want to consider buying new dogs. These guys put a hurting on them.  Just saying.



There have been years when still hunters killed in the mid 20's, and no one noticed a difference in the bears. The dog hunters killed 50 on the wma, a wma thats bordered by multiple wilderness area's, multiple wma's, and 1000's of acres of cnf that was off limits that borders other wilderness areas. The bear population wasnt hurt as bad as you think.


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## Al Medcalf (Oct 8, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> Jake is very qualified as an administrator, and does an excellent job. Probably a lot better than I do. I have nothing but the utmost respect for him. Having a different opinion about one issue has nothing at all to do with that. Diversity of thought and personalities is an asset in a team. I never learned much from anybody that I agree with about everything.


Well, so you and I definitely have different opinions on Jake!


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## blackbear (Oct 8, 2019)

If any of you guys want to read about a real life old time bear and panther dog hunter look up the great 
Ben Lilly
Here is a pic of him with  the President.Good reading and great stories!


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## blackbear (Oct 8, 2019)

Everybody i know can be mad at me but my dog is always glad to see me!


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## Nicodemus (Oct 8, 2019)

blackbear said:


> If any of you guys want to read about a real life old time bear and panther dog hunter look up the great
> View attachment 985923Ben Lilly
> Here is a pic of him with  the President.Good reading and great stories!




Ben Lilly was much of a man. David Crockett was a bear dogging man too.


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## Sautee Ridgerunner (Oct 8, 2019)

I hesitate to interject any science here because I know how it will be received but let me explain something about black bears.  

Black bear females set up and live in overlapping home ranges with their relatives.  Mothers, daughters, grandmothers, etc.  It helps with cub care and resource sharing.  Unrelated females do not typically get accepted in these areas.  DNA studies have shown this over and over.  Chattahoochee wma was the home of more bears psm than any of the surrounding country.  The densities and sex structures on swallow creek are so different, youd swear you were in another state.  Id suggest that chattahoochee was this way because of an extremely successful group of interrelated females and that the dispersal of their cubs is largely responsible for filling the surrounding areas with recruitment.  Nowhere else would you ever see so many females and so many cubs.  

The mismanagement by the DNR here and the greed of these dog hunters is going to have long lasting repercussions.  Much more than anybody here would like to think.  I cant fathom the killing of all these sows while knowing that they were leaving cubs behind to die terrible deaths.  I keep seeing everyone talking about the ethics and morals and proud traditions of hound hunting but where was all that last week when groups kept dumping fresh pack after fresh pack on overheated bears?  

I realize many people here want to see the bears reduced or gone altogether in the hopes that deer will somehow flourish again but that’s just not going to happen.  The coyotes alone will insure that a deer population in the 5psm range will never come back.  And in the end, all we will have is pigs.  

Im not a hound hater.  Ive hunted lions in Idaho behind them and as I type this, a walker hound (my third) lays across my lap.  I love hearing hounds work and I love running ridges, but I also love bears.  I love them more than any other creature on earth and Im just plain saddened by what has gone on here.  

In this thing we lost an absolute pile of healthy breeding females and their helpless cubs along with our ability to hunt many of our favorite wma’s in the state.  Ive been hunting up here for years and Ive planned ahead.  Ive seen bears every sit this archery season actually but Ill not waste my time even scouting the hooch next year.  

If dog hunting is going to have a place in GA, this is absolutely not the manner in which it can be done.  Now flame away.


----------



## JWT (Oct 8, 2019)

I’ve been on a lot out of state hunts , killed 9 bear most in Alberta, Canada, deer & turkeys out west , Illinois, Kentucky, Quebec Canada, New Brunswick, the most fun I’ve ever had was a dog hunting trip for 5 days in northern Maine , man that was fun ,


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## NGA44 (Oct 8, 2019)

Sautee Ridgerunner said:


> I hesitate to interject any science here because I know how it will be received but let me explain something about black bears.
> 
> Black bear females set up and live in overlapping home ranges with their relatives.  Mothers, daughters, grandmothers, etc.  It helps with cub care and resource sharing.  Unrelated females do not typically get accepted in these areas.  DNA studies have shown this over and over.  Chattahoochee wma was the home of more bears psm than any of the surrounding country.  The densities and sex structures on swallow creek are so different, youd swear you were in another state.  Id suggest that chattahoochee was this way because of an extremely successful group of interrelated females and that the dispersal of their cubs is largely responsible for filling the surrounding areas with recruitment.  Nowhere else would you ever see so many females and so many cubs.
> 
> ...



Here we go again....


----------



## Hillbilly stalker (Oct 8, 2019)

blackbear said:


> If any of you guys want to read about a real life old time bear and panther dog hunter look up the great
> View attachment 985923Ben Lilly
> Here is a pic of him with  the President.Good reading and great stories!


I’ve read everything I could get my hands on about him. The last mountain man.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 8, 2019)

blackbear said:


> If any of you guys want to read about a real life old time bear and panther dog hunter look up the great
> View attachment 985923Ben Lilly
> Here is a pic of him with  the President.Good reading and great stories!


Always was fascinated with his story.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 8, 2019)

Sautee Ridgerunner said:


> I hesitate to interject any science here because I know how it will be received but let me explain something about black bears.
> 
> Black bear females set up and live in overlapping home ranges with their relatives.  Mothers, daughters, grandmothers, etc.  It helps with cub care and resource sharing.  Unrelated females do not typically get accepted in these areas.  DNA studies have shown this over and over.  Chattahoochee wma was the home of more bears psm than any of the surrounding country.  The densities and sex structures on swallow creek are so different, youd swear you were in another state.  Id suggest that chattahoochee was this way because of an extremely successful group of interrelated females and that the dispersal of their cubs is largely responsible for filling the surrounding areas with recruitment.  Nowhere else would you ever see so many females and so many cubs.
> 
> ...


Not science; sensationalism. Hound hunters hunt every year here, and have for 200 years or more. 100+ bears killed in my county every year. There are still plenty of bears. And I want there to be plenty of bears. You are speaking from emotion, not science or fact.


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## Buckman18 (Oct 8, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> Not science; sensationalism. Hound hunters hunt every year here, and have for 200 years or more. 100+ bears killed in my county every year. There are still plenty of bears. And I want there to be plenty of bears. You are speaking from emotion, not science or fact.



This. 

Chattahoochee and Swallow Creek border each other. They touch. Chattahoochee must have the ghetto bears and Swallow Creek the high society bears?


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## Hillbilly stalker (Oct 8, 2019)

Plenty left in Wv, Virginia, Tenn. and Nc. Them boys would rather hunt than eat when their hungry. They don’t let up.


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## Heath (Oct 8, 2019)

Buckman18 said:


> This.
> 
> Chattahoochee and Swallow Creek border each other. They touch. Chattahoochee must have the ghetto bears and Swallow Creek the high society bears?



Made me shoot water out my nose!  That’s hysterical!


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## strothershwacker (Oct 8, 2019)

I'm know bear bettern anybody. After all, I'm half bear. Dad got lonely in them hills.


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## NGA44 (Oct 8, 2019)

strothershwacker said:


> I'm know bear bettern anybody. After all, I'm half bear. Dad got lonely in them hills.



So I guess your bear momma, grandma, great aunts, sisters, and seconds cousin twice removed all helped raise you on Chatt WMA and they were all killed by dog hunters? And your family structure was decimated and your kind will never exist again in that area?


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## strothershwacker (Oct 8, 2019)

NGA44 said:


> So I guess your bear momma, grandma, great aunts, sisters, and seconds cousin twice removed all helped raise you on Chatt WMA and they were all killed by dog hunters? And your family structure was decimated and your kind will never exist again in that area?


We're all going the way of the dodo bird.


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## Buckman18 (Oct 8, 2019)

Heath said:


> Made me shoot water out my nose!  That’s hysterical!



Sometimes things just click. 

There's another thing I just noticed... if you look at a map, Swallow Creek is on the left side of the mtn, Chattahoochee on the right...

We should protect the Republican bears on Chattahoochee, and have future dog hunts on Swallow Creek and eradicate the democrat bears.


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## JWT (Oct 8, 2019)

John wick is another good one , walking with hounds


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## JWT (Oct 8, 2019)

A walk with wick


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## Timberman (Oct 8, 2019)

Hillbilly stalker said:


> Bear doggers are a little suspicious of people they don’t know yet. Least the group I ran with were.




Facts. I was roped into a parlay one time  to solve some friction between two bear hunting groups. We went over the mountain to a lean to and a fire. It was touch and go for a bit...


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## Heath (Oct 8, 2019)

Another “scientific opinion”.  There isn’t a thing in the world wrong with having an opinion.  But realize there is a huge distinction between how you view information and what the data actually shows.  There is not one study that states any of the information you just shared.  Respectfully, you have cherry picked information from different sources and melded them together to make your case.  Not only that but you have made some big leaps in assuming any thing about hunter success, bear populations, and bear population nurseries.  I didn’t see a soul hunt one section of Chestatee that I’ve literally seen a hundred bears on in the past 19 years.  I see as many bear on Chestatee as I do Chattahoochee, Swallow Creek, and all NF land outside those WMAs every year.  I’ve heard the argument over and over again that Chattahoochee has a higher population, just look at the numbers.  That’s called cherry picking information.  Less hunters, less roads, a huge section of Chestatee is Boggs creek and I guarantee nobody turned a dog loose in it a second time because those bears have an almost impenetrable wall of tornado debris and briars to evade and torture man and dog.  Not to mention another 1/4 to a third of the WMA I never heard a dog bark in.  Those are huge limiting factors that swayed harvest numbers and there will be no data that can quantify it.  I know for a fact,  our bear are overpopulated.  The DNR knows for a fact that the bear are overpopulated.  The Biologists know for a fact that bear are overpopulated.  Their statement, “we want to maintain or slightly reduce bear numbers”!  They don’t do it because they want to get rid of bears.  They use hunters to maintain carrying capacity.  DNR, Biologists, and hunters want healthy bear and healthy ecosystems.  Symbiotic relationships thrive with correct balance.  Not because guides, or cranky deer hunters, or people that truly love bears, or any other selfishness I can’t think of at the moment decide it’s what they want and all reason and science should be thrown out the window.  How many sows killed were lactating females?  You don’t know. But you sure made it sound like it was scientific evidence.  Here’s my take.  I have a thousand pictures from April through August this summer of bear.  Not one nursing cub.  A few adolescent second year cubs that can be on their own but are still riding mammas apron strings.  These are in areas that are typically high yielding cub “nurseries“.  I believe it has to do with two years of poor mast and overpopulation.  I didn’t see cubs this year like I have in previous years.  Could be coincidence,  Could be we have too many bear and not enough food.  The facts bears are expanding into many new areas and populating places they have not been in a hundred years,  the biologists think we are overpopulated,  a huge number of small or adolescent sows harvested day after day for 9 straight days all point to me being somewhat on point with my opinion.  I take it you have a biology degree?  Why aren’t your opinions the same as the biologists running this study?  Because whatever your field of study, it isn’t bear biology and that makes you just as irrelevant as the rest of us.


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## Heath (Oct 8, 2019)

Sautee Ridgerunner said:


> I hesitate to interject any science here because I know how it will be received but let me explain something about black bears.
> 
> Black bear females set up and live in overlapping home ranges with their relatives.  Mothers, daughters, grandmothers, etc.  It helps with cub care and resource sharing.  Unrelated females do not typically get accepted in these areas.  DNA studies have shown this over and over.  Chattahoochee wma was the home of more bears psm than any of the surrounding country.  The densities and sex structures on swallow creek are so different, youd swear you were in another state.  Id suggest that chattahoochee was this way because of an extremely successful group of interrelated females and that the dispersal of their cubs is largely responsible for filling the surrounding areas with recruitment.  Nowhere else would you ever see so many females and so many cubs.
> 
> ...



Taking factual data and compressing them from different sources to manufacture a desired result.  Not science!  Actually, the exact opposite


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## Sautee Ridgerunner (Oct 9, 2019)

I do indeed have a biology degree but it’s just that, a degree.  Doesn’t mean much.  The knowledge of bear home ranges was initially discovered by Benjamin Kilham but has now been proven to be true including a recent dna analysis study in the Ozarks.  

Here is what is also true: GA is not NC or anywhere else.  Our bears exist in a relatively tiny little portion of the state and I know people here seem to think they are walking in big bad wilderness but our non roaded areas are tiny.  If you dropped me blindfolded into the worst of it, there is nowhere that I couldnt be to a road by dark.  

And people here are all seeming to forget that hound hunters in NC, through god knows what amount of political pressure, ended still hunting for bears so they could have it all for themselves.  So, let’s not pretend like this group has a history of protecting the rights of other hunter groups.  In reality THEY have shown time and again that hounding is the only thing that matters and forget the rest of us.  

I didnt sign on to this forum to debate anyone.  It’s a futile exercise.  I only did it because I know DNR watches this site somewhat to gauge public opinion and I want my voice heard.  Ill be at every meeting from here on out.  Ill continue to write letters and Ill do as much as I can to see that bear populations arent sent back down the tubes and that bowhunters have their place in the mountains that I love.  

You all can have your forum back now.


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## Buckman18 (Oct 9, 2019)

Sautee Ridgerunner said:


> And people here are all seeming to forget that hound hunters in NC, through god knows what amount of political pressure, ended still hunting for bears so they could have it all for themselves.



There is some truth to this. Hound Hunters rule the politics in NC. Still hunters have little to no opportunity to hunt bears. Hillbilly touched on this recently. Also, not sure why, but the NC gun deer season is only 3 weeks long. That just sucks!


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## NGA44 (Oct 9, 2019)

Sautee Ridgerunner said:


> I do indeed have a biology degree but it’s just that, a degree.  Doesn’t mean much.  The knowledge of bear home ranges was initially discovered by Benjamin Kilham but has now been proven to be true including a recent dna analysis study in the Ozarks.



Clearly that fancy degree didn’t teach you the difference between actual science and pseudoscience.

I’ve heard and read about Kilham. He’s not a scientist or even a biologist. Just a wildlife  rehabilitator. He does come off as somewhat anti bear hunting though.

Nice try buddy.


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## Buckman18 (Oct 9, 2019)

Joe Brandon said:


> Just joined Monday. Hmmmm. This all sounds so familiar.



Yeah, all that stuff about the Chattahoochee bears being the trailer park bears and swallow creek bears being the Rockefellers was weird and doesnt matter from a hunting perspective.  Actually, hunting would help diversify the DNA, so you'd have Appalachian American bears interbreeding with Brasstown American bears interbreeding with Etowah American bears, and the bear racial tensions might be eased a bit... 

The part he hit on that does have an ounce of validity is the political structure in NC. Most of us are open to houndsmen having an opportunity,  but if they try to pull in GA what they did in NC they'll be shut out fast.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 9, 2019)

Sautee Ridgerunner said:


> I do indeed have a biology degree but it’s just that, a degree.  Doesn’t mean much.  The knowledge of bear home ranges was initially discovered by Benjamin Kilham but has now been proven to be true including a recent dna analysis study in the Ozarks.
> 
> Here is what is also true: GA is not NC or anywhere else.  Our bears exist in a relatively tiny little portion of the state and I know people here seem to think they are walking in big bad wilderness but our non roaded areas are tiny.  If you dropped me blindfolded into the worst of it, there is nowhere that I couldnt be to a road by dark.
> 
> ...


If you would do more reading, and less assuming, you would find that I have indeed voiced my unfavorable opinion about the laws that keep folks from still-hunting bears on public land in NC, and the political lobbying that keeps them in place. I do not, however, subscribe to the us vs. them or we should only hunt my way theories. There is room for all of us, and if we don't stick together, none of us will be hunting.


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## splatek (Oct 9, 2019)

mattuga said:


> I had one experience with bear doggin.  I was backpacking ~2003 and we were deep in the NC mountains (probably Pisgah NF) as that was our favorite area.  We saw trucks for dogs and new they were around.  We got hit with a nasty storm late afternoon and could see it coming because we were high elevation and it was late Dec or early January.  We set camp off trail very haphazardly with the storm popping, 2 tents.  Next morning we heard hounds and stuck our head out up to the trail and saw a 70+ yo man who said "yall best stay in them tents we got a bear treed 250 hundred yards away."  He was behind the group but 5 minutes later we heard the bang.  When breaking camp we realized one of our tents was under a widowmaker, big lesson learned.
> 
> I think well managed dog hunting needs to be a thing forever.  I would not be a duck hunter were it not for my dog.  I love a sport with a working dog.  Seeing that old man is seared into my mind and especially the way he said bear it was more like briar without the r..."bair" or "bare" not sure if that is a local thing but I've never heard the word "bear" the same way anywhere.



Man, this made me remember a time my ex-wife and I were hiking, also deep in the NC wilderness. I can't remember exactly what trail we were trying to get to, but the FS rd leading up to the beginning of the trail was washed out and we were riding in her old 90's era Toyota corolla, so we couldn't risk it. WE got out and walked 7 miles on the FS rd, then used a map to get off trail to get to the hiking trail we were looking for. We ended up hiking in something like 9 miles, then hiked another 4 up to a clearing with some amazing views. Then the sun started going down and we thought we should get back to the car before dark. Man, we were smoked; we had each only brought a small water bottle and no snacks and had been hiking in terrain that we had little to no experience or business being on. We were about halfway to the car, so about 6-7 miles away, the sun started to really get low and we all know how the forest changes in that dusk light. No phone GPS and no real GPS, then my ex jumps up in fright only to turn around and see a beaut of a blue tick hound sniffing her hand. She was an old gal and she had a collar, a GPS collar on her, but she kept following us and was super friendly. We'd never encountered a hunting dog and so we wrapped a long sleeve shirt around her collar and guided her down the rd (as if she didn't know the way). Figured we would get her back to the owners (but secretly I wanted to keep her). Then come rolling up behind us on a flat bed toyota tacoma with a dog cage are two hunters. I have to admit, in hindsight her and I both looked at each other visually asking ourselves 1) should we run for our lives and 2) do we hear banjo music...? But those two bear-dog hunters were the nicest fellas. They mentioned seeing our car on the way up and wondering how far we'd come. They said their hunt was over for the night and that old Blue's collar wasn't working so they were happy we found here. They also let us know they'd be happy to drive us back to the car, pretty much insisted on it, but we'd have to sit atop the dog cage.... WE both agreed. Then as soon as we got up there the driver said, "catch" and tossed me two bud lights! To this day, my ex and I joke that those two bud lights were the best dang beers we've ever drank. When we finally got down to her car, we chatted for about half hour about dog-bear hunting, the tradition, and family - that conversation will never be forgotten, becaus the one guy started talking about having three daughters. Young girls and he was showing us how he let them paint his toe nails. In hindsight, I wish I'd made better friends with those guys, but I was smoked from the hike.


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## Sautee Ridgerunner (Oct 9, 2019)

NGA44 said:


> Clearly that fancy degree didn’t teach you the difference between actual science and pseudoscience.
> 
> I’ve heard and read about Kilham. He’s not a scientist or even a biologist. Just a wildlife  rehabilitator. He does come off as somewhat anti bear hunting though.
> 
> Nice try buddy.



He has spent more time with black bears in the wild than any man on the planet and gotten to watch their social structures develop firsthand.  Everything written in his books have been backed up by wildlife biologists “piggie backing” off his research.  He is as far from an anti as they come.  In fact he’s a gunsmith by trade.  But just like you passed immediate judgement on Jerry Russell without any true knowledge of the man, you do the same again.  Shocking......


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 9, 2019)

Sautee Ridgerunner said:


> He has spent more time with black bears in the wild than any man on the planet and gotten to watch their social structures develop firsthand.  Everything written in his books have been backed up by wildlife biologists “piggie backing” off his research.  He is as far from an anti as they come.  In fact he’s a gunsmith by trade.  But just like you passed immediate judgement on Jerry Russell without any true knowledge of the man, you do the same again.  Shocking......


Jerry Russell brought his judgement on himself by his condescending attitude. If he had expressed his opinion in a rational manner, and acknowledged other's opinions, which are just as valid as his; without including his obvious dislike and disdain for local hicks into it, he would have gotten a very different reception. When you arrive with a strong Us vs. Them attitude on display, don't expect Them to agree with you.

BTW, Timothy Treadwell spent a lot of time with bears and thought he knew all about them. The end of his story shows that maybe he didn't know nearly as much as the thought he did.


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## Sautee Ridgerunner (Oct 9, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> If you would do more reading, and less assuming, you would find that I have indeed voiced my unfavorable opinion about the laws that keep folks from still-hunting bears on public land in NC, and the political lobbying that keeps them in place. I do not, however, subscribe to the us vs. them or we should only hunt my way theories. There is room for all of us, and if we don't stick together, none of us will be hunting.



How did that logic work out for your home state?


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## Sautee Ridgerunner (Oct 9, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> Jerry Russell brought his judgement on himself by his condescending attitude. If he had expressed his opinion in a rational manner, and acknowledged other's opinions, which are just as valid as his; without including his obvious dislike and disdain for local hicks into it, he would have gotten a very different reception. When you arrive with a strong Us vs. Them attitude on display, don't expect Them to agree with you.
> 
> BTW, Timothy Treadwell spent a lot of time with bears and thought he knew all about them. The end of his story shows that maybe he didn't know nearly as much as the thought he did.



Id suggest you read his books before lumping him in with an unstable maniac.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 9, 2019)

Sautee Ridgerunner said:


> Id suggest you read his books before lumping him in with an unstable maniac.


I have read one of his books, actually, and have seen a documentary about him, also. He probably knows a good bit about bears, but he tends to anthropomorphise them to an extent, and I also think he is changing parts of their natural behavior by familiarizing them to human contact. Bears here in the GSMNP and in urban areas like Asheville that are human-imprinted act nothing like the wild bears in the national forest in many ways.


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## Sautee Ridgerunner (Oct 9, 2019)

Again, I have no interest in debating a bunch of strangers online.  Honestly, I dont have the time to even hardly glance at this forum, but I wanted to at least give the alternate opinion because it is nearly entirely one-sided here.  

I joined simply to do that.  There are five or six people in this thread who probably see me or my truck on a real regular basis.  Happy to speak on it in person.


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## NGA44 (Oct 9, 2019)

Sautee Ridgerunner said:


> He has spent more time with black bears in the wild than any man on the planet and gotten to watch their social structures develop firsthand.  Everything written in his books have been backed up by wildlife biologists “piggie backing” off his research.  He is as far from an anti as they come.  In fact he’s a gunsmith by trade.  But just like you passed immediate judgement on Jerry Russell without any true knowledge of the man, you do the same again.  Shocking......



Still pseudoscience. Hand raised bears aren’t wild bears, therefore the research cannot be applied to wild populations. If he has spent as much time as you are saying with bears then they are severely human conditioned specimens, because truly wild bears won’t tolerate human disturbance. It’s really quite simple.


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## spurrs and racks (Oct 9, 2019)

Increasing population of Atlanta if it has not already, will become your biggest problem to sustain a hunt able bear population.

They do not relocate trapped bears anymore.


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## SouthGa Fisher (Oct 9, 2019)

Personally, I hope they strike a balance between all hunters. I shoot a bow, I shoot rifles, I shoot shotguns. We all deserve a shot. But as we've seen in this and the other thread, they will never make every single hunter happy. That's for BOTH sides...

On a side note, I'm down from Nicodemus' area but I moved up to North Georgia a few years ago. My dad used to talk about how everybody used to drop the dogs out on deer down there, grew up with deer dogs, bird dogs, coon dogs, all hunting dogs. It was always a good time.

I can only imagine what they sound like echoing through the mountains...

Maybe one day.


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## Heath (Oct 9, 2019)

SouthGa Fisher said:


> Personally, I hope they strike a balance between all hunters. I shoot a bow, I shoot rifles, I shoot shotguns. We all deserve a shot. But as we've seen in this and the other thread, they will never make every single hunter happy. That's for BOTH sides...
> 
> On a side note, I'm down from Nicodemus' area but I moved up to North Georgia a few years ago. My dad used to talk about how everybody used to drop the dogs out on deer down there, grew up with deer dogs, bird dogs, coon dogs, all hunting dogs. It was always a good time.
> 
> ...



That’s great, welcome home!  We’ve had some great discussions the past couple weeks on this forum and there’s been lots of tail fanning and posturing.  Overall, there seems to be quite a few good guys and people who generally care about all wildlife and would like to see it and all peoples desired methods thrive.  Jerry was jumped on by everyone for insulting us and Sautee is getting more of the same because these two are not up front with their intentions.  We all read between the lines and figure them out quickly because they use the same Ol’ tactics that all anti-hound, anti-hunting, anti-fact, and anti-human liberal arts degree biologists use!  Luckily, we are in a time where we have sound non bias biologists who are trying to figure out just what needs to be done for the betterment of wildlife and not because the granola people want to hug a tree.  Enjoy this beautiful country and murder a few bear as they say!


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## ddd-shooter (Oct 9, 2019)

Anyone want to bet that there will still be fewer bears killed this year than last year across all F.S lands? 
No one was screaming last year when we took almost 200 more than the previous year...


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## Heath (Oct 9, 2019)

spurrs and racks said:


> Increasing population of Atlanta if it has not already, will become your biggest problem to sustain a hunt able bear population.
> 
> They do not relocate trapped bears anymore.



That’s false sir,  wildlife techs ran traps and relocated bear all summer again this year.  They should have euthanized them but another topic for another day.


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## Buckman18 (Oct 9, 2019)

Heath said:


> That’s false sir,  wildlife techs ran traps and relocated bear all summer again this year.  They should have euthanized them but another topic for another day.


This is correct.


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## JustUs4All (Oct 9, 2019)

Sautee Ridgerunner said:


> Again, I have no interest in debating a bunch of strangers online.  Honestly, I dont have the time to even hardly glance at this forum, but I wanted to at least give the alternate opinion because it is nearly entirely one-sided here.



Why jump into a debate with a bunch of strangers online if you have no time?

How did you develop an interest in the discussion if you have no time to even hardly glance at this forum. 

Why would it matter to you that there were a one-sided discussion going on?

So many questions.


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## Heath (Oct 9, 2019)

ddd-shooter said:


> Anyone want to bet that there will still be fewer bears killed this year than last year across all F.S lands?
> No one was screaming last year when we took almost 200 more than the previous year...



Because they weren’t taken with dogs.  61 is not even a huge upswing in numbers and the DNR and Biologists don’t even bat an eye at that little of impact.  Two people in general have responded with their heartfelt remorse for the decimation of bears as we know them.  Neither use science or fact in their editorials, but emotion and opinion.  Then we jump.  Next, they tell us how much better they are and how superior their way of thinking is.  Then they take their ball and run because they are above debating ignorant people.  Or in Jerry’s case phone a friend who is an administrator to try and remove any opposition he may have.  It’s classic.


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## Raylander (Oct 9, 2019)

Heath said:


> That’s false sir,  wildlife techs ran traps and relocated bear all summer again this year.  They should have euthanized them but another topic for another day.



I’ll back this up. I’ve seen empty traps where they’ve been set free..


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## Heath (Oct 9, 2019)

JustUs4All said:


> Why jump into a debate with a bunch of strangers online if you have no time?
> 
> How did you develop an interest in the discussion if you have no time to even hardly glance at this forum.
> 
> ...



Did you read his avatar?  Sautee....  should tell you everything you need to know!


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## spurrs and racks (Oct 9, 2019)

https://bigcanoenews.com/news/news-...ance-bears-to-be-trapped-killed-not-relocated 

*"DNR*: Big Canoe nuisance *bears* to be *trapped*, killed—not *relocated*. The bear issue in Big Canoe has become so serious this year the Department of Natural Resources *will* no longer *relocate* nuisance *bears*. They *will trap* and kill them.Jul 31, 2013 "

https://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/plan-to-deal-with-nuisance-bears-draws-fire/792096322


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 9, 2019)

From what I've read, they have found that relocating problem bears doesn't work well anyway. They have a very well-developed homing instinct and usually make their way right back to where they were originally trapped.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 9, 2019)

Sautee Ridgerunner said:


> How did that logic work out for your home state?


Hopefully it will sooner or later. As much as I would love to see a season where you can still-hunt bears with no dogs, I don't want to see it at the expense of destroying a very old, valuable and honorable tradition.


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## jbogg (Oct 9, 2019)

Heath said:


> Did you read his avatar?  Sautee....  should tell you everything you need to know!





Heath said:


> Did you read his avatar?  Sautee....  should tell you everything you need to know!



It is a shame that this thread has devolved into some name calling and piling on. I realize emotions run high on both sides of this issue, I have made it clear where I stand on this, and I think others have as well. The quickest way to kill a good robust debate is for people to start making insinuations and assumptions. Where someone lives should have nothing to do with their right to voice an opinion. All these references that I have seen on here referring to local mountain folks not putting up with Yankees coming down and telling them how to live has no place in this discussion. Using that logic I could turn it around and say that some administrator that lives in North Carolina should not be telling me how we should hunt here in Georgia. It cuts both ways. If The name calling and the piling on continues we will have people going elsewhere. At some point you end up with a small like-minded group and that doesn’t benefit anyone.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 9, 2019)

jbogg said:


> It is a shame that this thread has devolved into some name calling and piling on. I realize emotions run high on both sides of this issue, I have made it clear where I stand on this issue, and I think others have as well. The quickest way to kill a good robust debate is for people to start making insinuations and assumptions. Where someone lives should have nothing to do with their right to voice an opinion. All these references that I have seen on here referring to local mountain folks not putting up with Yankees coming down and telling them how to live has no place in this discussion. Using that logic I could turn it around and say that some administrator that lives in North Carolina should not be telling me how we should hunt here in Georgia. It cuts both ways. If The name calling and the piling on continues we will have people going elsewhere. At some point you end up with a small like-minded group and that doesn’t benefit anyone.


All the while ignoring the initial hostile/superior attitude and insults of those you agree with, along with comments about "murdering" of bears by fellow hunters, which started the whole pileup. I want to hear your opinion and consider it. Until you start shoving it down my throat, and telling me that I'm too ignorant to understand it, instead of conceding that my opinion might have just as much validity as yours. I honestly do not believe that this dog hunt has destroyed bear hunting forever in north GA, as the OP seemed to believe; any more than I believe the alarmist global warming folks when they say that we will die in 12 years if we don't "do something." Emotional feelings about something doesn't make it a fact.

And btw, an imaginary line on the ground doesn't separate the people of a natural region who are kin and share the same culture. The previous two generations of my family were born and raised in the north GA mountains. The people or their culture don't change when you go from Clayton to Franklin. They might when you go from Clayton to Boston.


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## jbogg (Oct 9, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> All the while ignoring the initial hostile/superior attitude and insults of those you agree with, along with comments about "murdering" of bears by fellow hunters, which started the whole pileup. I want to hear your opinion and consider it. Until you start shoving it down my throat, and telling me that I'm too ignorant to understand it, instead of conceding that my opinion might have just as much validity as yours. I honestly do not believe that this dog hunt has destroyed bear hunting forever in north GA, as the OP seemed to believe; any more than I believe the alarmist global warming folks when they say that we will die in 12 years if we don't "do something." Emotional feelings about something doesn't make it a fact.
> 
> And btw, an imaginary line on the ground doesn't separate the people of a natural region who are kin and share the same culture. The previous two generations of my family were born and raised in the north GA mountains. The people or their culture don't change when you go from Clayton to Franklin. They might when you go from Clayton to Boston.



We could go back-and-forth all day hillbilly if only we had time. Like it or not there IS an imaginary line on that ground, and and while the culture and Kin may be synonymous, I don’t want the same hunting that is practiced in North Carolina to become the rule of the day in Georgia. A three week gun season. No thank you. Now that hound hunters have a foot in the door I worry that it’s just a matter of time.


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## spurrs and racks (Oct 9, 2019)

some of the finest bear hunting with dogs is in the Ga, NC, Tenn corner....

it's not going to stop


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## Buckman18 (Oct 9, 2019)

jbogg said:


> We could go back-and-forth all day hillbilly if only we had time. Like it or not there IS an imaginary line on that ground, and and while the culture and Kin may be synonymous, I don’t want the same hunting that is practiced in North Carolina to become the rule of the day in Georgia. A three week gun season. No thank you. Now that hound hunters have a foot in the door I worry that it’s just a matter of time.



I agree, even though I am cautiously open to bringing in some hound hunting where it makes sense we don't want none of the rules, regs, or politics from NC here in our state.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 9, 2019)

jbogg said:


> We could go back-and-forth all day hillbilly if only we had time. Like it or not there IS an imaginary line on that ground, and and while the culture and Kin may be synonymous, I don’t want the same hunting that is practiced in North Carolina to become the rule of the day in Georgia. A three week gun season. No thank you. Now that hound hunters have a foot in the door I worry that it’s just a matter of time.


Sadly enough, if we had more than those three weeks of rifle season here in western NC, we wouldn't have any deer within a few years, likely. I really wish that they would take away our one either-sex day in a way, at least for a decade or so.
BTW, that three-week season is just in the far-western mountain counties. The game zones in the Piedmont and Coastal Plain of NC, where there is a really good deer population has a much more liberal season more similar to GA. I would like to see more selective timber harvest here. That would do more good than about anything else for deer and grouse.

I would also agree with you in that you definitely don't want a NC-style law that opens all bear season to dog hunting. As I have complained about before, it makes still-hunting bears on public land here almost impossible. Don't let them go that route, you will not like it. But, I also think that limited dog hunts aren't going to have a big negative effect on your bear population, as long as the bears have areas where the dog hunts aren't allowed, and they aren't season-long. One option would be to have them later in the year, which would reduce the numbers of females killed as they go off to den up much earlier than the males. I would agree that the timing of this one wasn't the best. I think that there is a way to work out room for both. I wish we could here.


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## Buckman18 (Oct 9, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> Sadly enough, if we had more than those three weeks of rifle season here in western NC, we wouldn't have any deer within a few years, likely. I really wish that they would take away our one either-sex day in a way, at least for a decade or so.
> BTW, that three-week season is just in the far-western mountain counties. The Piedmont and Coastal Plain of NC, where there is a really good deer population has a much more liberal season more similar to GA. I would like to see more selective timber harvest here. That would do more good than about anything else for deer and grouse.



It still blows my mind that still hunters cant shoot bears. On the length of deer season, i dont think lengthening the season would make a huge difference. Hunter harvest is not the root of the deer problem, and there arent very many harvested to begin with, and there are 1000's of acres of NF thats more than 1/2 mile from the road do not get enough pressure to make a difference one way or the other. At least here in GA.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 9, 2019)

Buckman18 said:


> It still blows my mind that still hunters cant shoot bears. On the length of deer season, i dont think lengthening the season would make a huge difference. Hunter harvest is not the root of the deer problem, and there arent very many harvested to begin with, and there are 1000's of acres of NF thats more than 1/2 mile from the road do not get enough pressure to make a difference one way or the other. At least here in GA.


There is no rule that still-hunters can't shoot bears, it's just a side effect of the whole bear season being open to dog hunting. The bears pretty much go nocturnal after the first day of the season. You can still do good still hunting on private land if you have access to a good chunk where nobody runs dogs. Public land is pretty much out of the picture, though.


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## Buckman18 (Oct 9, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> There is no rule that still-hunters can't shoot bears, it's just a side effect of the whole bear season being open to dog hunting. The bears pretty much go nocturnal after the first day of the season. You can still do good still hunting on private land if you have access to a good chunk where nobody runs dogs. Public land is pretty much out of the picture, though.



Can you not shoot them during the ML season? I thought you just posted something of the like recently? Im still struggling with literacy so I may have fouled that up somehow?


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 9, 2019)

Buckman18 said:


> Can you not shoot them during the ML season? I thought you just posted something of the like recently? Im still struggling with literacy so I may have fouled that up somehow?


Nope. Because muzzleloader season for deer here in the western zone is usually the first two weeks of October, and bear season doesn't open until the third Monday of October.


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## Heath (Oct 9, 2019)

jbogg said:


> It is a shame that this thread has devolved into some name calling and piling on. I realize emotions run high on both sides of this issue, I have made it clear where I stand on this, and I think others have as well. The quickest way to kill a good robust debate is for people to start making insinuations and assumptions. Where someone lives should have nothing to do with their right to voice an opinion. All these references that I have seen on here referring to local mountain folks not putting up with Yankees coming down and telling them how to live has no place in this discussion. Using that logic I could turn it around and say that some administrator that lives in North Carolina should not be telling me how we should hunt here in Georgia. It cuts both ways. If The name calling and the piling on continues we will have people going elsewhere. At some point you end up with a small like-minded group and that doesn’t benefit anyone.



I agree.  No need for anyone to leave because their opinion differ.  Do you feel the OP and Mr Sautee didn’t make any backhanded comments in their posts?  It works both ways as you stated.  They drew first blood by “educating” us poor hillbillies in a condescending way.  We may have retaliated a bit less tactful but the end result was insult for insult.  In no way is that a justifiable excuse but you get smart and people get smart back!


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## humdandy (Oct 9, 2019)

Heath said:


> I agree.  No need for anyone to leave because their opinion differ.  Do you feel the OP and Mr Sautee didn’t make any backhanded comments in their posts?  It works both ways as you stated.  They drew first blood by “educating” us poor hillbillies in a condescending way.  We may have retaliated a bit less tactful but the end result was insult for insult.  In no way is that a justifiable excuse but you get smart and people get smart back!



I did not read that into either of their posts.  I read it as being more frustrated with the way the hunt was handled and the DNR..........pretty sure one said he has hunted with hounds and owns one... 

There is no way for me to predict how people will read my post or read into any posts I make.


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## Heath (Oct 9, 2019)

humdandy said:


> I did not read that into either of their posts.  I read it as being more frustrated with the way the hunt was handled and the DNR..........pretty sure one said he has hunted with houpnds and owns one...
> 
> There is no way for me to predict how people will read my post or read into any posts I make.



That’s a fair assessment,  and an honest one.  Maybe everyone had a knee jerk reaction to protect our opinions.  I don’t have a problem with differing opinions at all.  My dearest friends and family can all sit and have a disagreement and still have love for one another.  It’s the misrepresentation of facts to argue a case that people get upset about.  To my knowledge,  there hasn’t been any factual information released by Hammond such as age structure, size, and sex of harvested bears.  Hearsay, but not actual data.  Therefore, the only reaction people can have is to the number 61 being it’s the only data published thus far.  Some have jumped to some wild conclusions and are condemning the DNR, the biologists, and hunters for legally harvesting a renewable natural resource.  Those type of attitudes are not well received among hunters because we fight that same battle from the outside everyday.   I don’t know everything,  but I do know the biologists of our past and present got us to where we are today.  We have an over abundance and they are working toward a solution to help bear, hunters, residents in bear country, and the state.  Mr. Jerry guides bear hunts and has a hand in killing many more bear than you or I have tags to kill.  But he condemns others for killing too many bear.  Then Sautee uses data from one man that’s not a scientist and hasn’t been cited in any publications I’ve read nor acknowledged even in North Eastern scientific studies where he is at.  He’s not a credible source because Scientists have a strict distinction between captive and wild populations.   The only time he is cited are in public formats and media where he is heralded as a rehabilitation expert.  That makes the public feel good but it is not science.  Have an opinion and leave it at that.  When you make up things or cite false information people will discredit you.


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## Heath (Oct 9, 2019)

https://www.bearbiology.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Hristienko_Pastuck_15_1_.pdf

I have no idea how to post a document or make it a link.  This should calm Jerry and Sautee with some facts about sows and cub orphanage.

-Cubs at 5.5 months and as little as 18 pounds are self sufficient.  50% being an acceptable survivorship rate.  
-41 cubs orphaned per year on average makes up less than 2% of cub mortality due to natural causes.
-55% of females harvested in spring seasons were between the age of 2-5.  86% of those females had never had a litter.  
-food quality and availability largely influence reproductive potential in an independent-density manner. (Beecham 1980,  McLaughlin et al. 1994, Miller 1994, Samson and Huot 1995)
-probability of a 77 pound female ovulating is 36%.  No females were recorded under that weight.
-94% of females weighing 176 pounds had young the following spring
-0% of the females weighing less than 147 pounds had young the following spring.
- low lactation rate (6%) of 4 year old females indicates difficulty of young females reaching threshold fall weight required to successfully raise a litter. (Observed by Jolicoeur and Lemieux 1994)

Just a few high points of statistical data by real scientists.  This is in Ontario and it states that data is consistent with a number of other research articles and list a bunch that everyone can read for themselves.


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## Joe Brandon (Oct 9, 2019)

I want to personally apologize for my sarcasm and ego. As others have said we have to stick together. This is obviously such a passionate issue, I'm sure it will get worked out. Again I appreciate you guys and have learned so much from so many of you.


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## Heath (Oct 9, 2019)

Joe Brandon said:


> I want to personally apologize for my sarcasm and ego. As others have said we have to stick together. This is obviously such a passionate issue, I'm sure it will get worked out. Again I appreciate you guys and have learned so much from so many of you.



Heck, I’m the worst one.  My wife says I’m relentless.  We all in this together, share and let a neighbor enjoy his way and you enjoy yours.  I apologize as well for losing focus and slipping in digs occasionally.


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## Al Medcalf (Oct 9, 2019)

No apologies from me, I learned a long time ago not to say something that I don't mean


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## splatek (Oct 10, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> From what I've read, they have found that relocating problem bears doesn't work well anyway. They have a very well-developed homing instinct and usually make their way right back to where they were originally trapped.



^^ If those data/intuitions are correct, then many of the bear that were maybe run off Chestatee and Chattahoochee will make their way back after they stop hearing and fearing hounds...? Maybe...? 

Also, did I miss an official report that broke down how many were taken from each WMA respectively. I know a lot of the talk was about Chattahoochee, and for good reason, but me personally, I am a little more interested in Chestatee; it's a little closer to home and I know the terrain a bit better. I realize Chestatee might not be "prime" bear habitat, but seems like they will go where the food and water are. I would be really interested to hear about those data. I think I hear 61 across both, but then I thought I read 61 at Chattahoochee... If that info is out there, I would appreciate someone letter me know. Cheers!


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## NCMTNHunter (Oct 10, 2019)

splatek said:


> ^^ If those data/intuitions are correct, then many of the bear that were maybe run off Chestatee and Chattahoochee will make their way back after they stop hearing and fearing hounds...? Maybe...?



Bear never really leave their home range when they are being run. They go to the places where they are most comfortable. The only ones that left are the dead ones.


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## twincedargap (Oct 10, 2019)

It would have been nice to to have the hunts respect other use seasons, and spread out, say two widely different wma’s, not such a concentrated slaughter.


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## kevin17 (Oct 10, 2019)

Help me understand why a bear in general is on such a high pedestal. Any where a bear lives it is on a higher standard than other big game animals. I don’t get why they are such a sensitive subject. They smell like a dog and after skinning one it’s like you stuck your hands in a bucket of crisco. They destroy trees that produce for other wild life before it even hits the ground.


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## splatek (Oct 10, 2019)

NCMTNHunter said:


> Bear never really leave their home range when they are being run. They go to the places where they are most comfortable. The only ones that left are the dead ones.



That's good info to know. Here I thought maybe they'd run like the dickens like I might! Get out of dodge so to speak. Thanks. I am constantly learning more and more about these animals...



twincedargap said:


> It would have been nice to to have the hunts respect other use seasons, and spread out, say two widely different wma’s, not such a concentrated slaughter.



That's a really interesting question. Speaking with my scientist cap on, i am going to conjecture that it was for ease of data collection. The bears in Chest and Chat were collared, well, some of them were. My understanding after talking with a DNR tech and a biologist (way back before I ever thought I'd care to hunt bear) was that they chose those areas because they could capture bears in an relatively isolated geographic region for data analysis. My hunch is that using a geographic sampling technique, if successful (however that is determined) would then lead to generalization to the other mountain WMAs. It would be like if I did my research here in Gwinnett, I would generalize the findings to all Georgians, then Americans, then humans, but here instead of simply generalizing the data on behavioral data, DNR could use the data to generalize the application of a hunting method. Total conjecture, but that's generally how applied science works.


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## Tio Hey Seuss (Oct 12, 2019)

blackbear said:


> If any of you guys want to read about a real life old time bear and panther dog hunter look up the great
> View attachment 985923Ben Lilly
> Here is a pic of him with  the President.Good reading and great stories!


Ben Lilly was probably the best hunter in American history. Makes Daniel Boone look like a total sissy. He was so effective that he is the reason there aren't grizzlies and cougar in many states. He believed he was on a mission from god to kill every animal that could prey on humans. Teddy Roosevelt said he was the toughest man he ever met. Worth reading up on!


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## Joe Brandon (Oct 12, 2019)

https://www.gon.com/hunting/high-hunter-success-north-georgia-bear-dog-hunts


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## Buckman18 (Oct 12, 2019)

For what its worth, there's still at least 1 bear using Chattahoochee.  Saw him Thursday PM on the way home from work crossing the highway between the airstream park and the pull off with the NF on 75. Maybe 100 pounds, at most. I got out and ran after him and tried to catch him. As i was getting closer, i clotheslined myself on a laurel limb. It was his lucky day.


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## Christian hughey (Oct 12, 2019)

kevin17 said:


> Help me understand why a bear in general is on such a high pedestal. Any where a bear lives it is on a higher standard than other big game animals. I don’t get why they are such a sensitive subject. They smell like a dog and after skinning one it’s like you stuck your hands in a bucket of crisco. They destroy trees that produce for other wild life before it even hits the ground.


Just dont understand! Why do people do half the dumb things they do. No ones place to judge another for what they prefer.


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## kevin17 (Oct 12, 2019)

Christian hughey said:


> Just dont understand! Why do people do half the dumb things they do. No ones place to judge another for what they prefer.


I  Wasn’t judging anybody. I just hate bears.


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## Christian hughey (Oct 12, 2019)

But from a big game hunters perspective, I love the challenge and the different opportunity for a true trophy. I look at a 400 lb. black bear with the same excitement and intensity as any trophy whitetail or bull elk for that matter. The bear is an awesome critter and definitely has its place in the wild far as I'm concerned. Now do I want them over populated and sneaking in your home for a midnight snack, no of course not but a happy medium would be nice.


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## JustUs4All (Oct 12, 2019)

Al Medcalf said:


> No apologies from me, I learned a long time ago not to say something that I don't mean



I think you have missed the point Al.  Often the way something is said gets in the way of what was actually said.  There can definitely be a wrong way to say a right thing.


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## Big7 (Oct 12, 2019)

Y'all know I'm well entrenched in the "if it's legal" camp.

My opinion is that large game should not be "hunted" with dogs. That simply is not "fair chase"- IMO.

To me- it's a dogs place to track and recover lawfully wounded game. Not "hunt".

My 2 cents.


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## Nicodemus (Oct 12, 2019)

Big7 said:


> Y'all know I'm well entrenched in the "if it's legal" camp.
> 
> My opinion is that large game should not be "hunted" with dogs. That simply is not "fair chase"- IMO.
> 
> ...




Hunting with dogs is an old time tradition that goes back to the early days of this country. It`s an honorable way to hunt.


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## Hillbilly stalker (Oct 12, 2019)

Even the Indians used dogs .


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## NGA44 (Oct 12, 2019)

Big7 said:


> Y'all know I'm well entrenched in the "if it's legal" camp.
> 
> My opinion is that large game should not be "hunted" with dogs. That simply is not "fair chase"- IMO.
> 
> ...



Have you ever hunted with dogs?


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## NCMTNHunter (Oct 12, 2019)

If hunting big game with dogs is not fair chase then hunting anything with dogs is not fair chase. If hunting anything with dogs is not fair chase then fair chase doesn’t exist.


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## Christian hughey (Oct 13, 2019)

NCMTNHunter said:


> If hunting big game with dogs is not fair chase then hunting anything with dogs is not fair chase. If hunting anything with dogs is not fair chase then fair chase doesn’t exist.


Guess it dont because fair chase is just that, you and the animal you pursue with no outside elements, baits, etc., using an animal to track your game is not exactly fairchase. Not knocking the style of hunting AT ALL, as I have said before I'm interested to the point I would like to run some hounds myself but yall better quit **'in and give them dogs more credit, the amount of bears killed on this hunt was due to the dogs nose and not the houndsmen. Without the dogs that hunt would have went totally different. Yes you do spend time training them, I get that but a dogs nose is an unmatched tool used for hunting that they are born with and man uses this to their advantage every day, even with police k9's, it's no secret that they can find what they are looking for. Not saying you fellas wouldn't know how to hunt without the dogs. I'm sure you would be fine hunters regardless,  common sense tells us using dogs isn't fair chase!, is it fun? I'm sure! Is it legal? Sure is! So my thoughts on it are have fun, be safe and give them hounds more credit. Doesn't make you any less a hunter because when it boils down to it you still knocked down 61 bears in 2 weekends. Good job.


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## NCMTNHunter (Oct 14, 2019)

Christian hughey said:


> Guess it dont because fair chase is just that, you and the animal you pursue with no outside elements, baits, etc., using an animal to track your game is not exactly fairchase.  common sense tells us using dogs isn't fair chase!



Your opinion of fair chase doesn't dictate or reflect the definition of fair chase.  As a matter of fact the organization the coined "Fair Chase", defined it, and trademarked it accepts hunting with dogs as a method of fair chase.  Common sense is relative to what is common.    



Christian hughey said:


> yall better quit **'in and give them dogs more credit, the amount of bears killed on this hunt was due to the dogs nose and not the houndsmen.



Don't be mistaken.  Houndsmen praise their dogs and give them all credit where it is due.  Heck its the only reason most of them even hunt.  Houndmen know exactly what each dog does and is capable of doing.  They know which dogs are strike dogs, trail dogs, and pack dogs, and know how to hunt them accordingly.  

Yes a dogs nose is an unmatched tool but without houndsmen putting dogs in the woods year round, keeping them in shape and their trailing abilities tuned the dogs would never catch a bear.  The houndsmen also have to do all the scouting, find a good track, determine if it is a sow with cubs, what direction the bear this going, if it is headed for a boundary or obstacle that would cause problems and a whole list of other things before ever turning a dog loose.  You don't just swing by the pound on the way to woods and let all those dog noses find you a bear.  If you started buying bear dog pups today and run them 3 or 4 days a week you might have a pack of dogs you can kill bear with in about three years.  It is a second full time job and the reason most of us that would love to simply can't do it anymore.  

What has alway's been strange to me is that the bear that I have killed without dogs came after 3 or 4 hard weekends of scouting and about as many days of hunting.  The amount of time that I put in to killing those bears won't scratch the surface on the amount of time that goes into killing a bear with dogs but nobody within the hunting community questions the ethics of that.  



Christian hughey said:


> Without the dogs that hunt would have went totally different.



Without the dog hunt it would have been different.  But how much different would it have been than if you set up a situation where 120 of the best stand/still hunters in North Georgia converged on those two WMAs and no where else for 9 days.  That would also produce a much higher harvest than normal.

It's funny how the way we are raised doing things can form our opinion of what is right, wrong, fair chase whatever.  I remember the first time I saw a spot and stalk bear hunt on TV when I was a teenager.  My first thought was why in the world would anyone want to just shoot a bear that didn't have a dog on it.  As far as my little world was concerned if there are no dogs then it's not a bear hunt.  This is no different than the argument between guns and bows, long range verses regular range (whatever that is) and all the other things hunters like to bicker about.  When it comes down to it as long as it is done in a manner that conserves the resource.  we all should enjoy taking part in our historic methods of putting meat on the table.


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## Christian hughey (Oct 14, 2019)

NCMTNHunter said:


> Your opinion of fair chase doesn't dictate or reflect the definition of fair chase.  As a matter of fact the organization the coined "Fair Chase", defined it, and trademarked it accepts hunting with dogs as a method of fair chase.  Common sense is relative to what is common.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree it is a cool method to killing them and it is all in how you are raised. Everyone has their own way and habits and sometimes both parties can be right in their own way. I will leave it at that. Dont want to come off as condescending in my post at all. I cherish this sport and wish well to all that want to share the experience!


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## Al Medcalf (Oct 14, 2019)

NCMTNHunter,You hit the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned:
"Don't be mistaken.  Houndsmen praise their dogs and give them all credit where it is due.  Heck its the only reason most of them even hunt"

If I didn't coonhunt, I probably wouldn't hunt anymore.  I got burned out on deer hunting a long time ago and I was dang good at it. (Recurve bows and shooting instinctive)  But, now I don't deer hunt, turkey hunt, fish or play golf.  I coonhunt and the reason I do that is because I love training and hunting with dogs.  These folks that are throwing rocks at houndsmen better check out their own glass houses.  Last time I checked the antis weren't too fond of any kind of hunting.  Especially bowhunting and trapping.  Yep, they are against them trapping those big bad coyotes that eat their precious deer.


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## pinky88 (Oct 14, 2019)

Don't be surprised if you see another dog hunt next year or even before. The DNR want the bear population the same as the deer. You can blame the lack of deer on anything you want to but until the DNR allowed doe days on Blue Ridge you could go on any managed hunt up there and see deer almost everywhere. I grew up hunting the Jones Creek side of Blue Ridge WMA with my Dad and the woods have not changed one bit since the late 70`s. There wasnt any clear cutting going on then and you could ride from the checking station to the top of winding stair road and see at least 10 healthy deer cross in front of you. Go back and check the numbers of doe killed with muzzle loaders the first 5 years and you will find that it was there intent to wipe them out. The same is going to happen with our bears. Then when the bears are gone on Chestatee and Chattahoochee you better plan on buying a mountain bike or buying a horse because the parking lots and trails are next for y`all. Good luck and enjoy it while you can. By the way I am not against dog hunting I have coon hunted all my life but the recreation has us out numbered


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## Raylander (Oct 15, 2019)

pinky88 said:


> Don't be surprised if you see another dog hunt next year or even before. The DNR want the bear population the same as the deer. You can blame the lack of deer on anything you want to but until the DNR allowed doe days on Blue Ridge you could go on any managed hunt up there and see deer almost everywhere. I grew up hunting the Jones Creek side of Blue Ridge WMA with my Dad and the woods have not changed one bit since the late 70`s. There wasnt any clear cutting going on then and you could ride from the checking station to the top of winding stair road and see at least 10 healthy deer cross in front of you. Go back and check the numbers of doe killed with muzzle loaders the first 5 years and you will find that it was there intent to wipe them out. The same is going to happen with our bears. Then when the bears are gone on Chestatee and Chattahoochee you better plan on buying a mountain bike or buying a horse because the parking lots and trails are next for y`all. Good luck and enjoy it while you can. By the way I am not against dog hunting I have coon hunted all my life but the recreation has us out numbered



I cut my teeth in that area as well. I went to hunt there a few years back. Completely taken over by MTN bikers..


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## CornStalker (Oct 16, 2019)

This thread....

Let's all just call and write the DNR with our questions and comments, because there are waaaaay to many theories on why they conducted this dog hunt and how many bears there are at the WMA....


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## goshenmountainman (Oct 17, 2019)

pinky88 said:


> Don't be surprised if you see another dog hunt next year or even before. The DNR want the bear population the same as the deer. You can blame the lack of deer on anything you want to but until the DNR allowed doe days on Blue Ridge you could go on any managed hunt up there and see deer almost everywhere. I grew up hunting the Jones Creek side of Blue Ridge WMA with my Dad and the woods have not changed one bit since the late 70`s. There wasnt any clear cutting going on then and you could ride from the checking station to the top of winding stair road and see at least 10 healthy deer cross in front of you. Go back and check the numbers of doe killed with muzzle loaders the first 5 years and you will find that it was there intent to wipe them out. The same is going to happen with our bears. Then when the bears are gone on Chestatee and Chattahoochee you better plan on buying a mountain bike or buying a horse because the parking lots and trails are next for y`all. Good luck and enjoy it while you can. By the way I am not against dog hunting I have coon hunted all my life but the recreation has us out numbered


Its a two year program, there will be one next year to.


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