# Heavi shot



## Big Andy (Jun 25, 2010)

Did remington used to make heavi-shot, when it first came out for turkey hunting?  For some reason I thought they did.  If not who makes it now?


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## Twenty five ought six (Jun 25, 2010)

Hevi-shot was first made by Hevi-shot, then Remington licensed it from Hevi-shot.

No idea who is loading it now.


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## Nitro (Jun 25, 2010)

Environ Metal Inc loads Hevishot.

www.hevishot.com

IMHO, the best HeviShot loads on the market are from Ray Filogomo's Nitro Company.

www.nitrocompany.com

Both companies load ammo that will perform very well on Gobblers.


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## Gaswamp (Jun 25, 2010)

Environ Metal licensed hevi-shot to Remington in 2002 with the agreement ended around 2005.  I assume this was till Environ had to capability to manufacture on their own.


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## Big Andy (Jun 26, 2010)

Does it perform as good as what they claim?


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## Nitro (Jun 26, 2010)

Big Andy said:


> Does it perform as good as what they claim?



Does the Pope wear a funny hat????????


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## Big Andy (Jun 26, 2010)

Nitro-which shot shell and choke do you use?


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## Nitro (Jun 26, 2010)

The only constant in my Turkey killin repertoire is the shell- 

Nitro #378I  3" 1 7/8oz Triplex 4x5x7 Hevi shot .

Nasty.

Depending on the gun it's either- Rhino .660, Kicks .665 or Pure Gold .670.

Send a PM and I will try to help. Nitro's ammo is devastating on Gobblers.


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## Golden BB (Jun 26, 2010)

X2 on what Nitro is saying. Bite the bullet and get some and you will never shoot anything else.


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## Nitro (Jun 27, 2010)

No floppin...............


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## hawglips (Jun 28, 2010)

Golden BB said:


> X2 on what Nitro is saying. Bite the bullet and get some and you will never shoot anything else.



Well, only if you stop trying to improve on what you're shooting.

Lot's of guys are making the switch from Nitros to the new Hevi-13 #7 based shells.  Not to mention those loading up their own 18g/cc shells....


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## Nitro (Jun 28, 2010)

hawglips said:


> Well, only if you stop trying to improve on what you're shooting.
> 
> Lot's of guys are making the switch from Nitros to the new Hevi-13 #7 based shells.  Not to mention those loading up their own 18g/cc shells....



(IF) they can find them....

Not to mention most folks aren't loading TSS (yet)...


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## hawglips (Jun 28, 2010)

Big Andy said:


> Does it perform as good as what they claim?



Big Andy, there are lots of choices these days in heavier-than-lead shot.

Hevi-shot pioneered it.  All the major ammo mfrs have their own version now.

Environmetal's 'hevi-13' brand, Winchester's 'hi-density', Remington's 'HD' (heavy density) -- are all 12g/cc density, which is about 10% denser than lead.  And yes, it does perform as well as claimed.  Federal has their "heavy weight" shot that are 30% denser at 15g/cc, and do amazing things.

Then the handloader has options from 12g - 18g/cc shot.  Nitros Ammo uses lead and 12g/cc hevi-shot -- I'd certainly recommend the hevi-shot offerings -- and they perform as well advertised.

There's a thread on here called "penetration revisited", or something like that, that gives you an idea about how the higher density effects pellet penetration downrange.


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## Big Andy (Jun 28, 2010)

I was told years ago that you had to have a special choke to handle the heavi-shot. Is this still true.  I have a kicks choke right now and just bought some of the heavi-13 from BPS. Wil that choke handle it?


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## Nitro (Jun 28, 2010)

Big Andy said:


> I was told years ago that you had to have a special choke to handle the heavi-shot. Is this still true.  I have a kicks choke right now and just bought some of the heavi-13 from BPS. Wil that choke handle it?



I have shot PLENTY of HTL through  Kick's chokes.

While their "official" stance as published is " No Hevi", when you talk to them on the phone, they will tell you Hevi is OK to shoot.

Other great options that I have used include-

Rhino
Pure Gold
Indian Creek

There are others out there as well. Good Luck.


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## trkyhntr70 (Jun 28, 2010)

Ive also shot plenty of hevi shot and Nitros in the kicks chokes, Never had a problem; In fact some cases they were the better patterning choke.


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## Brad C. (Jun 29, 2010)

I think Hevi-Shot 3" or 3.5" #7 loads are what the doctor would order.  They are the cure to killing a gobbler way out there.  Forget what you may read about 7's not having the thump to take a bird at farther distances.  I'm here to tell you they will kill as far as they will hold a pattern of 100 shot in a 10" circle.  And from what I have seen in my guns and chokes that is a long way regardless of who says the 40 or 45yds is their maximum range regardless of what they are shooting.  I say to each their own.  As long as you pattern your gun, choke, and load to the maximum effective range, and stick within that range in my book you are doing your homework.


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## Gadget (Jun 30, 2010)

Brad C. said:


> I'm here to tell you they will kill as far as they will hold a pattern of 100 shot in a 10" circle.  And from what I have seen in my guns and chokes that is a long way regardless of who says the 40 or 45yds is their maximum range regardless of what they are shooting.  As long as you pattern your gun, choke, and load to the maximum effective range, and stick within that range in my book you are doing your homework.




There's a reason Nitro runs their shells up to 1200+ MV out of a 24" gun, same reason EM had to up the fps on their #7 hevishot loads. It's no secret that #7 hevishot mic's out to be closer to #8's on average than the true 7's their sold as. According to ballistic programs they show #7.5 hevishot running outta penetration at only 40yds when launched at a muzzle velocity of 1,150fps, Nitro Ray will tell you himself that #7 HS has to be pushed over 1,100 MV to kill at 40yds. The EM hevishot loads are rated at a lab tested 1200 fps, that equates to about 1,150 MV in a 24" gun. I know guys who lost some turkey at 45-55 yds this past season with the EM #7's. I believe they don't have the MV to "CONSISTANTLY" kill at long ranges, Nitro's have 50+ fps MV over the EMs and so can reach out farther. The down side to having to run the higher velocities to make up for the small shot size is high pressure and monstrous recoil. If I were shooting EM's I'd be shooting the #6's. I'm looking for a shell that has (reliable) killing penetration out to 60yds to give me plenty of buffer for my 40yd shooting limit, 20yds is a good number since I've misjudged distance by as much as 15yds in the past; I don't believe EM hevishot #7's fit the bill.


 ballistics program shows the TSS 9's launched at the same 1,150 MV have equal penetration at 79yds, TSS #8's 102yds......... 7.5 hevishot 39yds.



.


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## returntoarchery (Jun 30, 2010)

then you've got Fed HW #7 at 15g/cc. They penetrate pretty good as well and is heap good medicine from a  20 gauge.


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## Gadget (Jun 30, 2010)

returntoarchery said:


> then you've got Fed HW #7 at 15g/cc. They penetrate pretty good as well and is heap good medicine from a  20 gauge.





Yep...... here's my list for the potential of a 60yd shell, as mentioned in my above post.


PB(lead) #4 but can't hold the pattern so not an option for me
EM hevishot #6
Nitro #7
TS #8
TSS #9


The thing about the TS and TSS shot is it can be loaded down to a MV of only 1050fps and still have the penetration to kill out to 60+yds, this is on paper and has been demonstrated in the field over the past three years.


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## hawglips (Jun 30, 2010)

Here's another way to look at how heavier than lead affects the ability of shot to penetrate and kill.

It was figured out a long time ago by Ed Lowry and other smart guys that it took and "Energy Density" of 235 to kill mallard ducks 95% of the time.  "Energy Density" is Kinetic Energy divided by the cross sectional area of a shotshell pellet.

Here's the maximum distance #6 shot of various materials shot at 1200 fps will achieve the necessary Energy Density to kill a mallard duck 95% of the time:

Steel #6...........................14.5 yards
lead #6.............................34.7 yards
hevishot #6......................40.9 yards
Federal Hwt #6................63.5 yards
TSS #6.............................88.3 yards


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## Brad C. (Jun 30, 2010)

Rick,

I don't concentrate too much on tests that say this or that.  I concentrate on live game testing on what I see live and in person.  This bird was plum shot through at 45yds and maybe farther.  The neck had complete pass throughs on most shot and several shot penetrated through the backside of the turkey breast on a 24lb bird.  This bird was overkilled with Hevi-Shot #7's.  A 50yd shot would be a walk in the park.  Look at the pictures below.  No hype just facts and the pictures to prove Hevi-Shot 7's will devastate a bird at long distances.    















The last picture was the far side of the bird and several of the shot came out the other side.  Now you tell me how far that I could have killed that bird from.  He showed no signs of getting up after the shot.  He was tore up and that is putting it mildly.

This is a pattern from the gun and choke at 40yds.  No bird of I have met would walk away from that pattern even at 55yds.  I would bet money on it after seeing the results at 45yds.


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## yonceyboy (Jun 30, 2010)

?





Brad C. said:


> Rick,
> 
> I don't concentrate too much on tests that say this or that.  I concentrate on live game testing on what I see live and in person.  This bird was plum shot through at 45yds and maybe farther.  The neck had complete pass throughs on most shot and several shot penetrated through the backside of the turkey breast on a 24lb bird.  This bird was overkilled with Hevi-Shot #7's.  A 50yd shot would be a walk in the park.  Look at the pictures below.  No hype just facts and the pictures to prove Hevi-Shot 7's will devastate a bird at long distances.
> 
> ...


? how long is the barrel.


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## Brad C. (Jun 30, 2010)

28"

That pattern was shot at a taped 40yds. 

MAD .675 choke made by Indian Creek


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## Brad C. (Jun 30, 2010)

The bird may have even been at 50yds.  I will call it a safe 45yds and probably a tad more in all reality.  I am very accurate at my first guess.  I know I had to walk a long ways to get to the dead bird.


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## hawglips (Jul 1, 2010)

Brad C. said:


> Rick,
> 
> I don't concentrate too much on tests that say this or that.  I concentrate on live game testing on what I see live and in person.



This is the same reason that the TurkEy ComaNdeR used to explain why he quit using Nitros -- on live birds he found the small hevishot #7s were not up to doing the job.  They would barely penetrate the skin, he said.  

So, which is it?  Which is the true story?  Do the penetrate clean through the bird at long range, or do they barely pass through the skin at moderate ranges?  

The only way to get a true picture of how they compare is by objective, measureable tests and math.


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## hawglips (Jul 1, 2010)

Not to say that killing a mallard duck and killing a gobbler is the same thing, but using that same 235 Energy Density limit, at 1200fps, here's a comparison with #7 shot. 

steel #7s............................10.7 yds
lead #7s.............................28 yds
Hevi-13 #7s.......................33.4 yds
Fed Heavyweight #7s.......53 yds
TSS #7...............................74.6 yds


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## goblr77 (Jul 1, 2010)

hawglips said:


> This is the same reason that the TurkEy ComaNdeR used to explain why he quit using Nitros -- on live birds he found the small hevishot #7s were not up to doing the job.  They would barely penetrate the skin, he said.
> 
> So, which is it?  Which is the true story?  Do the penetrate clean through the bird at long range, or do they barely pass through the skin at moderate ranges?
> 
> The only way to get a true picture of how they compare is by objective, measureable tests and math.




I've shot some birds between 45 and 50 yds with Hevi-13 #6's and had shot go all the way through the neck and breast.  Although I haven't shot a bird with #7's I would think that they would do much more than penetrate the skin at long distances. There are too many reports of birds being shot at 50+ and Brad C. has provided pics of one shot at 45+.


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## Gadget (Jul 1, 2010)

Quote:
 	 	 		 			 				 					Originally Posted by *Brad C.* 

 
_Rick,

I don't concentrate too much on tests that say this or that.  I  concentrate on live game testing on what I see live and in person._





hawglips said:


> This is the same reason that the TurkEy ComaNdeR used to explain why he quit using Nitros -- on live birds he found the small hevishot #7s were not up to doing the job.  They would barely penetrate the skin, he said.
> 
> So, which is it?  Which is the true story?  Do the penetrate clean through the bird at long range, or do they barely pass through the skin at moderate ranges?





Funny  ........ your right the "commAndeR" said they wouldn't hardly go through the skin and that's why he quit using them. 






hawglips said:


> The only way to get a true picture of how they compare is by objective,  measureable tests and math.






I agree............ objective, measurable, repeatable tests done in a lab type setting by professionals. There's guys on here that say they've killed birds out to 60-70yds with lead #6's too, see it on here every year, i'm sure their field testing is all the proof they need too.......


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## Gadget (Jul 1, 2010)

hawglips said:


> Not to say that killing a mallard duck and killing a gobbler is the same thing, but using that same 235 Energy Density limit, at 1200fps, here's a comparison with #7 shot.
> 
> steel #7s............................10.7 yds
> lead #7s.............................28 yds
> ...





TSS..... more than double the effective range of hevishot #7's, and that comparing at true #7, which hevishot is not, to be more accurate you should of used 7.5 hevishot.


the real interesting thing is how it shows the difference between lead and hevishot being only 5 yards !!!!!


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## Gadget (Jul 1, 2010)

goblr77 said:


> I've shot some birds between 45 and 50 yds with Hevi-13 #6's and had shot go all the way through the neck and breast.  Although I haven't shot a bird with #7's I would think that they would do much more than penetrate the skin at long distances. There are too many reports of birds being shot at 50+ and Brad C. has provided pics of one shot at 45+.





Yeah and there are reports of birds being wounded and lost also.....



There's a lot of variables to play into killing a bird, pattern density playes a role, #10 hevishot will kill one out to 45yds too if you get a pellet through the eye. A lot of people hit birds with the edge of their pattern, not hard to get off by a few inches, not hard at all. Look at all the reports on here every year where people say that they completely missed a bird, a bunch! There's a line, somewhere there is a line where you start to occasionally loose birds, a line where your shell starts to loose it's effectiveness, where is that line with hevishot  #7 ??? people have already done testing to find that line, the data is out there, controlled tests in a lab type setting, of course it's not an exact science, there's a lot of variables that go into killing a bird and those variables change with every bird you shoot..........but like I said there is a line somewhere, a line to where your shell starts to become ineffective at killing birds 100% of the time, I want to shoot the shell that keeps me in that 100% bracket all the time! Field reports from a few guys is inconclusive! , you have to look at data from hundreds of hunters, exactly how many birds where shot at, exactly how many were killed and how many were lost and at what exact yardage!! ; you show me that kind of data and then we'll be getting somewhere, but that data doesn't exist and never will,  a lot of guys that miss or wound birds never admit to it much less post it on the internet so of course your mostly just hearing the "glory" stories from the guys who killed their birds, until then I will continue to rely on data that has been derived from controlled, measurable testing.


 many people are too worried about how many pellets they can put in a 10 circle and not concerned enough about the effective killing range of the shells their shooting.


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## Nitro (Jul 1, 2010)

Is it OK to continue to use 4x5x7s????

They seem to work (ok) so far.


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## hawglips (Jul 1, 2010)

Nitro said:


> Is it OK to continue to use 4x5x7s????
> 
> They seem to work (ok) so far.





Better check with TC though before you buy any more.


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## Gadget (Jul 1, 2010)

hawglips said:


> Better check with TC though before you buy any more.





yeah I believe TC was one of their main field testers.......... based on his observations he severed ties with the company.


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## blong (Jul 1, 2010)

Here is a little field test pattern on some roofing tin with tss #8s. If the 7's barely penetrate the skin, I don't want to be in the same county with his super turkeys!


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## trkyhntr70 (Jul 1, 2010)

This thread is the very first Ive read anything negative about the hevi #7s, Id rather they pump the velocity up to 1200 fps like the magblends though.
 Comparing the hevi 7's to Nitros I like the consistancy of hevi's pellet size better.
There's no denying that the TSS is pure kryptonite on turkeys and does nasty things to tin and other objects. I personally thinks its beyond my need or desire to hunt with or shoot.
I like and shoot the hevi shot for the improved pattern density.
Any old school reloader will tell you that lead #6's will kill beyond 50yds in the right loaded shell. 
Heck the old school hunters nearly wiped em out with little to no camo and 2 3/4" lead shells.
Since when did turkeys become immune to lead anyhow?


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## trkyhntr70 (Jul 1, 2010)

Gadget said:


> Is that a fact? who are some of these "old school reloaders" that you've talked to? and what is a "right" loaded shell ??



Hey Rick,
In my opinion its a fact, Ask Curtis (Gun Docc) to those who dont know who Curtis is about his old #6 lead "long range" load. I'd says he has plenty of credit in the turkey gun community. Also Ronny ( Reloader) from OG has said it many times of his numerous kills with lead @ 50-55 yds. I'd also say he has plent of credibility and Im certain he patterned that rig numerous times.


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## hawglips (Jul 1, 2010)

trkyhntr70 said:


> This thread is the very first Ive read anything negative about the hevi #7s,



I don't see anything negative about hevi# 7s.  TC and some others used to talk negative about them though. 

I encourage folks to shoot hevishot instead of lead.  If the pattern density is there, hevi 7s should be a fine turkey load.  But they just don't penetrate all that well compared to other available denser shot.



trkyhntr70 said:


> I personally think [TSS] its beyond my need or desire to hunt with or shoot.
> I like and shoot the hevi shot for the improved pattern density.



If it's improved pattern density you like, then you'd really like TSS.

Speaking of shot comparison, here's an interesting one.

Hevishot 7.5s (what Nitros uses) will penetrate ballistic gelatin 1.25" at 46 yards, going 1200 fps.  TSS #9s will penetrate that same 1.25" at 46 yds going only 765 fps.


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## hawglips (Jul 1, 2010)

Compared to lead, hevishot is a good step up.

If you went up to the 1090 fps Hevi-13 #6s, they will penetrate the ballistic gelatin 1.92" at 46 yds.  That's 35% more penetration than the Hevi 7.5s, at a much slower speed.

Lead #6 at a much faster 1200 fps, will penetrate 1.48" at the same 46 yds.

Not to mention the improved patterning qualities of the hevishot compared to lead.


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## Gadget (Jul 1, 2010)

trkyhntr70 said:


> Hey Rick,
> In my opinion its a fact, Ask Curtis (Gun Docc) to those who dont know who Curtis is about his old #6 lead "long range" load. I'd says he has plenty of credit in the turkey gun community. Also Ronny ( Reloader) from OG has said it many times of his numerous kills with lead @ 50-55 yds. I'd also say he has plent of credibility and Im certain he patterned that rig numerous times.




 deleted my post before I knew you replied, was being sarcastic, figured you meant Curtis, been at his place bout once a week here lately, he just finished building me a gun and made me a couple loading tools. I've discussed aspects of reloading with him on many occasions and have looked over his recipe book.........


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## Gadget (Jul 1, 2010)

hawglips said:


> Compared to lead, hevishot is a good step up.
> 
> If you went up to the 1090 fps Hevi-13 #6s, they will penetrate the ballistic gelatin 1.92" at 46 yds.  That's 35% more penetration than the Hevi 7.5s, at a much slower speed.
> 
> ...





What does the ballistics data show for lead 6 vs hevi 7.5? bout equal? 


Thought all the new Hevi-13's were at 1200, they running the straight 7's at only 1090 and the triplex at 1200?


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## Brad C. (Jul 1, 2010)

Rick and Hal,

I am not full of crap like some on here and I think you will know that of me when I say what I said to be true here.  I respect the testing you do.  And you know that.  But live game tells me what I really want to know.  Again that bird was overkilled at 45yds+.  I toasted him in all reality.  I can post bigger pictures if you care to see them.  7's will very easily kill a gobbler at 55yds with my 870 and probably 60yds with my 835.  No gobbler that walks will avoid this pattern from my 835 even if it was shot at 60yds.  It's not too hard to penetrate the skull of a turkey or the vertebrae area with Hevi-Shot #7's.  Look at the devastation again at 45yds and the bird was devastated.  He might as well been hit with a train for the outcome would have been the same.  And you can know if I honestly didn't think it was 45yds or farther that I would say it was.  I typically can estimate yardage with the best of them.  But if you wish the next bird I blast I will tape measure the yardage after the shot.  

That target below was shot at a true tape measured 40yds.


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## Brad C. (Jul 1, 2010)

I'll add not only did I penetrate the skull and vertebrae area of the bird above at 45yds, but I shot plum through the other side.  Now anyone can doubt me, and I don't have to convince you or anyone else.  I'm not here to do that.  All the convincing I need was what I seen after cleaning that bird above.  Like I said several shot went all the way out the back of the breast.  Now if that ain't enough power then I don't know what is.  Maybe I should just go back to lead if my eyes were deceived.  I know what I saw.


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## trkyhntr70 (Jul 1, 2010)

Gadget said:


> deleted my post before I knew you replied, was being sarcastic, figured you meant Curtis, been at his place bout once a week here lately, he just finished building me a gun and made me a couple loading tools. I've discussed aspects of reloading with him on many occasions and have looked over his recipe book.........



I figured you fellas had shared some info, I seen that lil container with the tss in it, Man that stuff is much heavier than most would think just looking at it.


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## trkyhntr70 (Jul 1, 2010)

hawglips said:


> I don't see anything negative about hevi# 7s.  TC and some others used to talk negative about them though.
> 
> I encourage folks to shoot hevishot instead of lead.  If the pattern density is there, hevi 7s should be a fine turkey load.  But they just don't penetrate all that well compared to other available denser shot.
> 
> ...



Hey Hal,
I have no doubt about the capability of tss, Its wicked!
I dont feel that its needed for my hunting situations. I wont say never, One of these days when I get tired of EM changing things up, I may get into loading or just go back to Win exteneded range or lead, I think going back to lead would be alot tougher for me than coughing up the dough for reloading; Besides I think I would enjoy it.


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## Brad C. (Jul 1, 2010)

Oh and Rick,

Ask Ronnie(Reloader) how for Hevi-13 #7's will kill a bird and come back and tell me what he says.  He will tell you the exact same thing I stated above about they will kill as far as they will pattern meaning the 100 shot in a 10" at whatever yardage that may be.  I think he is dead-on when he says that.


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## hawglips (Jul 2, 2010)

Brad C. said:


> Oh and Rick,
> 
> Ask Ronnie(Reloader) how for Hevi-13 #7's will kill a bird and come back and tell me what he says.  He will tell you the exact same thing I stated above about they will kill as far as they will pattern meaning the 100 shot in a 10" at whatever yardage that may be.  I think he is dead-on when he says that.



It depends on how fast it's going.  Unlike some other options, you have to get them going pretty fast to get good penetration.  

Your pattern with 319 12g/cc #7 pellets in a 10" at 40 yds is flat out awesome.   No quesiton about that.  And you have high confidence in them, which is important.  But those pellets will not penetrate near as well as the guy shooting hevi-13 #6s, Fed Hwt 7s, TSS, etc.
It's not knocking them, just passing along info.


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## Gadget (Jul 2, 2010)

trkyhntr70 said:


> I figured you fellas had shared some info, I seen that lil container with the tss in it, Man that stuff is much heavier than most would think just looking at it.





That shot I gave Curtis was TS #7 15g, not TSS, that TS shot feels light compared to the TSS.


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## Gadget (Jul 2, 2010)

hawglips said:


> It depends on how fast it's going.  Unlike some other options, you have to get them going pretty fast to get good penetration.
> 
> Your pattern with 319 12g/cc #7 pellets in a 10" at 40 yds is flat out awesome.   No quesiton about that.  And you have high confidence in them, which is important.  But those pellets will not penetrate near as well as the guy shooting hevi-13 #6s, Fed Hwt 7s, TSS, etc.
> It's not knocking them, just passing along info.






Yeah, that's what I'm getting at, I'm not trying to knock hevi 7's, I'm just trying to discuss their reliable killing range.

Like I said, at some point every shell starts to loose it's effectiveness, at some point you will start to loose and wound turkey.....that's a FACT, with every load, including TSS. Where exactly is that point with hevi 7's ??, I don't have the answer, I have ideas, opinions. There's no way to put a definite answer to it, pattern density plays a role for sure, you have a much better pattern than most guys, so does Ronnie, that will add some yardage for sure. Muzzle velocity plays a big role too, guys with short 20" barrels may be shooing 50fps slower than you. And of course you can kill 5 in a row at 50yds with no problem, and think everything is fine, then wound the next three. There's a lot of variables to consider. 

With the testing that has been done and data that has been compiled by some very smart and talented guys, it points towards hevishot #7 not having enough for consistent 60yd kills. Remember I was talking about shot capable of consistent, reliable 60yd kills. Based on what I know and have seen if I were going back to hevi-13, I'd go with the 6's. Now if they refined their manufacturing process and were to come out with a true #7 sized pellet, then that would be different. I haven't miced the stuff out in the last year, but I have several times in years past, on average the #7 hevishot is between 7.5 and size 8!


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## hawglips (Jul 2, 2010)

Gadget said:


> ... if I were going back to hevi-13, I'd go with the 6's.



Same here.


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## trkyhntr70 (Jul 2, 2010)

Gadget said:


> That shot I gave Curtis was TS #7 15g, not TSS, that TS shot feels light compared to the TSS.



Really, that stuff must really be heavy. BTW, I seen the lil 20Ga. up there, That thing is in perfect condition; Excellent find!


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## Nitro (Jul 2, 2010)

trkyhntr70 said:


> I seen the lil 20Ga. up there, That thing is in perfect condition; Excellent find!



Wait til the one I bought gets to Curtis.............. it's a beater on the outside.... won't matter, she will get dipped in MO Obsession.......


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## Gadget (Jul 2, 2010)

trkyhntr70 said:


> Really, that stuff must really be heavy. BTW, I seen the lil 20Ga. up there, That thing is in perfect condition; Excellent find!



Yeah he's been working on a few guns for me, finally got that 20ga savage 220 done, everything except getting it dipped, gonna wait till I work up my TSS load before sending it off, hoping to put it on the range this weekend, have a 2 3/4 - 1 5/8 ounce load of TSS all loaded up and ready to chrono'd. 

He's been working on my M2 as well, converting it over to a dedicated turkey killer, probably gonna retire the SBE2, keep it as a back-up or a loaner when guiding, mostly just shooting 2 3/4 12ga turkey shells from now on so want the smaller 3"chamber.


probably getting a 16ga barrel for the 220 and work up some loads for that too.


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## Gadget (Jul 2, 2010)

Nitro said:


> Wait til the one I bought gets to Curtis.............. it's a beater on the outside.... won't matter, she will get dipped in MO Obsession.......





thought you were gonna do bottomland?


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## hawglips (Jul 2, 2010)

Gadget said:


> ... Got a 2 3/4 - 1 5/8 ounce load of TSS all loaded up and ready to chrono'd.
> 
> ...mostly just shooting 2 3/4 12ga turkey shells from now on so want the smaller 3"chamber.



Who needs a stinking 3.5" turkey shell anyway?


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## Gadget (Jul 2, 2010)

hawglips said:


> Who needs a stinking 3.5" turkey shell anyway?





 might be... " who needs a stinking 3", turkey shell" from now on.....   All my loads will probably be 2 3/4 from now on.


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## hawglips (Jul 2, 2010)

Who wudda thunk it?


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## Gadget (Jul 2, 2010)

hawglips said:


> Who wudda thunk it?





maybe I should go post that on shotgunworld.....


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## hawglips (Jul 2, 2010)

Yeah, it's about time to stir those boys up a bit.  It's like poking a stick in a yellow jacket nest....


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## Brad C. (Jul 2, 2010)

I understand both of your thoughts.  I honestly believe the 7's allow hunters to put more shot in a turkey head and neck.  And I honestly believe they have the putdown(notice I didn't say knockdown power for those that might want to misread into it) power to kill birds consistently out to the 60yd mark if each hunter does his homework and patterns their gun to know its lethal limits. So I am not recommending hunters to go and try a 60yd shot just to try it.  Again if you can put around 300 shot in a 10" with these Hevi-Shot 7's at a taped or lasered 40yds then you will kill a lot of birds with this load very easily at 55yds and I will stop there, but I believe 60yds can still be very obtainable in all reality.  The power, I have no doubt would still be there.  I have also shot enough 50yd shots with other guns to know about how many shots on avg you will tend to lose from 40yds to 50yds.  Like I said above, if you can consistently put around say 280 or more shot in a 10" at 40yds, you can very easily take birds consistently at 55yds and maybe a tad farther with these loads.

Any shot that can penetrate a pretty thick piece of cardboard and still stick in plywood at whatever distance will very easily have the force to penetrate a turkey head and neck to kill it.  Regardless of what any other test a person does to say against that is just misinformation.  I have no doubt whatsover that the Hevi-Shot 7's will do this.  I myself haven't shot at 60yds to see, but I can't see from what I have seen on the bird I pictured above at 45yds plus that a mere 15yds would mean the shot would run out of power to still put down a bird cleanly if the pattern density was there.  I do know what these loads can do at 40yds.  And they will easily go through cardboard and penetrate and stick in plywood or wood at 40yds.


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## meleagris (Jul 2, 2010)

*Tss*

I'm convinced of the effectiveness of TSS, but how is it on barrels and chokes?  Have you seen any indication of scoring?  How about the nitro and hevi shells, anybody seen any related barrel problems?


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## hawglips (Jul 2, 2010)

Brad C. said:


> Again if you can put around 300 shot in a 10" with these Hevi-Shot 7's at a taped or lasered 40yds then you more than will kill a lot of birds with this load very easily at 55yds and I will stop there, but I believe 60yds can still be very obtainable in all reality.  The power, I have no doubt would still be there.



I think you would have sufficient pattern at 60 yds.  Based on your 319 pattern at 40, I'd estimate you will get 150-160 at 60 yds.  

But with the Hevi-13 #7s rated at 1090 fps, ( http://www.hevishot.com/images/stories/_Sell_Sheets/2010_HEVI-13.pdf ), that means at 60 yds, you're only going to be getting approx .94" of penetration in soft ballistic gelatin, so I would be worried about it having enough oomph to break and penetrate bone at that range.


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## hawglips (Jul 2, 2010)

meleagris said:


> I'm convinced of the effectiveness of TSS, but how is it on barrels and chokes?  Have you seen any indication of scoring?  How about the nitro and hevi shells, anybody seen any related barrel problems?



I scored up a choke a tiny bit in the early days of testing TSS, but have never seen any barrel scoring.  But after shooting several thousand dollars worth of it through various guns, that's the only thing I've seen.

In short, barrel or choke damage with TSS is no longer a worry at all for me.


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## Brad C. (Jul 2, 2010)

hawglips said:


> I think you would have sufficient pattern at 60 yds.  Based on your 319 pattern at 40, I'd estimate you will get 150-160 at 60 yds.
> 
> But with the Hevi-13 #7s rated at 1090 fps, ( http://www.hevishot.com/images/stories/_Sell_Sheets/2010_HEVI-13.pdf ), that means at 60 yds, you're only going to be getting approx .94" of penetration in soft ballistic gelatin, so I would be worried about it having enough oomph to break and penetrate bone at that range.



I understand your concern.  But again if you shoot this load and can get the results I  seen of shooting through and out the backside of a the top of a turkey breast at 45yds then I for the life of me can't see these shot not having the umpf to kill consistently at 60yds.  15yds will not mean that the shot will come to a crawl for penetration.


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## hawglips (Jul 2, 2010)

Brad C. said:


> 15yds will not mean that the shot will come to a crawl for penetration.



But you do lose more than 25% of the pellets' penetration power from 45 to 60 yds.

So, it is significant.


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## trkyhntr70 (Jul 2, 2010)

Gadget said:


> Yeah he's been working on a few guns for me, finally got that 20ga savage 220 done, everything except getting it dipped, gonna wait till I work up my TSS load before sending it off, hoping to put it on the range this weekend, have a 2 3/4 - 1 5/8 ounce load of TSS all loaded up and ready to chrono'd.
> 
> He's been working on my M2 as well, converting it over to a dedicated turkey killer, probably gonna retire the SBE2, keep it as a back-up or a loaner when guiding, mostly just shooting 2 3/4 12ga turkey shells from now on so want the smaller 3"chamber.
> 
> ...



What are ya gonna dip it in??


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## meleagris (Jul 2, 2010)

Thanks.  I was just curious, because as with everything you here a lot of horror stories about how bad something is on barrels.  Usually though it is unfounded info from people that have never used the product or have used it wrongly.  You guys have me convinced to order some TSS and see what it will do.  Should be a fun summer project.


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## Brad C. (Jul 2, 2010)

hawglips said:


> But you do lose more than 25% of the pellets' penetration power from 45 to 60 yds.
> 
> So, it is significant.



And I would say that is about correct.  But again if you can shoot out the bckside of a bird facing you and quartering away at 45yds, you would still have plenty of zip with Hevi-Shot #7 to easily kill a gobbler at the 60yd mark.  Now how far it is that these 7's in this load will run out of umpf I personally don't know.  But I sure wouldn't want to be a turkey and let someone shoot at me at 60yds with any of the Hevi-Shot #7 loads with a good shooting gun and choke just to see if I could be the lucky one to defy the odds.  I think I would come out on the short end of the stick.

There is no doubt in my mind that there are other choices out there that will kill farther.  But I myself am confident in these loads after seeing the results on a big bird that bit the dust at 45yds.  Like I said, the bird in my opinion was overkilled.  That is all I need.  And I am comfortable knowing what they can and can't do.


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## Snood Collector (Jul 2, 2010)

I'm still waitin on the handloaded TSS 10 ga load hawg...I wanna field test that...


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## Gaswamp (Jul 2, 2010)

Gadget said:


> Yeah he's been working on a few guns for me, finally got that 20ga savage 220 done, everything except getting it dipped, gonna wait till I work up my TSS load before sending it off, hoping to put it on the range this weekend, have a 2 3/4 - 1 5/8 ounce load of TSS all loaded up and ready to chrono'd.
> 
> He's been working on my M2 as well, converting it over to a dedicated turkey killer, probably gonna retire the SBE2, keep it as a back-up or a loaner when guiding, mostly just shooting 2 3/4 12ga turkey shells from now on so want the smaller 3"chamber.
> 
> ...



glad somebodys getting a 220 worked on, obviously, I need more pull


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## Turkeydoghunter (Jul 4, 2010)

*question for mr. nitro*



Nitro said:


> Environ Metal Inc loads Hevishot.
> 
> www.hevishot.com
> 
> ...


nitro ive shot the nitro rays for years with a rhino choke ....heres my question what do you do when the buffer crap strats falling out the shell ??? throw em way cause they aint worth 2 cents ....you pay that high price they shouldnt fall apart....andy it cost me 2 big long beards because of it....they were with in 40 yds....i guees i should have tossed the shells and put a fresh one....all ill say is yes they perform great if they dont fall apart ....maybe some epoxy pait on the end....Ron


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## Nitro (Jul 4, 2010)

Gadget said:


> thought you were gonna do bottomland?



No one has it............so far.


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## Nitro (Jul 4, 2010)

Turkeydoghunter said:


> nitro ive shot the nitro rays for years with a rhino choke ....heres my question what do you do when the buffer crap strats falling out the shell ??? throw em way cause they aint worth 2 cents ....you pay that high price they shouldnt fall apart....andy it cost me 2 big long beards because of it....they were with in 40 yds....i guees i should have tossed the shells and put a fresh one....all ill say is yes they perform great if they dont fall apart ....maybe some epoxy pait on the end....Ron



Slap some clear finger nail polish on it if you don't have shell sealer.


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## Turkeydoghunter (Jul 4, 2010)

maybe nitro ray could use some...? what ever hes use N aint working....its to bad because they are an awesome shell, i ve killed a truck load with em....


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## hawglips (Jul 6, 2010)

Nitro said:


> Slap some clear finger nail polish on it if you don't have shell sealer.



Nitro Ray posted on another board a while back and said don't use anything but Elmer's Glue to seal up his shells.


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## Gadget (Jul 6, 2010)

hawglips said:


> Nitro Ray posted on another board a while back and said don't use anything but Elmer's Glue to seal up his shells.





I used Elmers on my Nitros and hevi-13's when I was still shooting them, works good. Silicone works good too.


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## Gadget (Jul 6, 2010)

Nitro said:


> No one has it............so far.




Haven't checked into it yet, hope I can find it.




trkyhntr70 said:


> What are ya gonna dip it in??



Bottomland


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## trkyhntr70 (Jul 6, 2010)

Gadget said:


> Haven't checked into it yet, hope I can find it.
> 
> 
> Bottomland





Great Choice!!! 
I think its one of the best looking patterns on a gun!


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## Turkeydoghunter (Jul 6, 2010)

*elmers glue*



Gadget said:


> I used Elmers on my Nitros and hevi-13's when I was still shooting them, works good. Silicone works good too.



i like the silicone idea better...Elmers glue is water soluble not a good chocie for wet weather ....just wish ole ray would seal them better,


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## Gadget (Jul 6, 2010)

meleagris said:


> I'm convinced of the effectiveness of TSS, but how is it on barrels and chokes?  Have you seen any indication of scoring?  How about the nitro and hevi shells, anybody seen any related barrel problems?





all tungsten and steel shot will score a choke and eventually you might see some in the barrel too, especially if your a duck hunter and shoot a lot of rounds. I've seen more scoring from shooting steel duck loads then anything else, mainly because of the larger pellets.

Smaller pellets = less scoring + with handloading your able to do a couple more things to protect the barrel that the manufacturers don't do. Turkey hunters don't have much to worry about, be hard pressed to wear out a barrel in a lifetime, maybe a choke in 20 or 30yrs.....


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## Gadget (Jul 6, 2010)

got the KPY shotshell ballistics data in today, great program.



You've heard us talk about TSS being equal to lead 5 times larger, this has been tested by Hawlips and by the guys at Tungstensupershot.com, KYP is now a third source.


Maximum distance to achieve a minimum of 1.5 inches of penetration into ballistic gelatin with a muzzle velocity of 1,100fps.


These are the closest match to TSS #9's

TSS #9 18g/cc = 64.5yds
Federal heavyweight #7.5 15g/cc = 62.8yds
Hevi-13 #6 13g/cc = 63.4yds
Nitro hevishot #5 12g/cc = 64.5yds
(pb) lead #4 11g/cc = 64.8yds
Steel #BB 7.9g/cc  = 61.7yds


Comparison of some others popular turkey shot, none make it to 50yds with 1.5 inches of penetration into ballistic gelatin.

Hevi-13 #7 = 49.3yds
Hevi-13 #7.5 = 42.6yds
Nitro hevishot #7 = 39yds
Nitro hevishot #7.5 = 33.2
Lead #6 = 41.2yds



Going from 1,100fps to 1,200fps muzzle velocity on all loads only adds about 5yds of penetration !! 

 similarly, going down from 1,100 to only 1,000fps decreases about 5 as well.


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## hawglips (Jul 6, 2010)

Gadget said:


> These are the closest match to TSS #9's...



The only thing different that the sheet metal tests showed, was that lead performs much worse on something hard compared to the other shot.



Gadget said:


> Going from 1,100fps to 1,200fps muzzle velocity on all only add about 5yds of distance !



About the same as going from a 20" to 28" barrel.


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## Turkeydoghunter (Jul 6, 2010)

looks like good old lead still knocks them dead


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## hawglips (Jul 7, 2010)

Gadget said:


> Comparison of some others popular turkey shot, none make it to 50yds with 1.5 inches of penetration into ballistic gelatin.
> 
> Hevi-13 #7 = 49.3yds
> Hevi-13 #7.5 = 42.6yds
> ...



The only problem with this is that there is no such thing as hevi-13 #7s at 13g/cc.  They are basically 12g/cc.  Some of the Hevi-13 produced in 2009 were 13g/cc, but no more.

They seem to be content to let folks believe they are 13g/cc though.


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## Gadget (Jul 7, 2010)

hawglips said:


> The only problem with this is that there is no such thing as hevi-13 #7s at 13g/cc.  They are basically 12g/cc.  Some of the Hevi-13 produced in 2009 were 13g/cc, but no more.
> 
> They seem to be content to let folks believe they are 13g/cc though.





I keep looking for definitive answers, seems some say it's all 12/g some say it's not, some say the new hevi-13 is more uniform and true to size than the old, others say no, and then the one that it's all #7.5, there is no true #7; The way they change their recipes and components around all the time I guess there might never be a definitive answer.


If I had some hevi-13 and hevishot of the same size I could run my own density and size tests and find out.


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## Mr. Longbeard (Jul 7, 2010)

Nitro said:


> No floppin...............




lol...

 How far was that shot??? Let me guess 40 plus yards...


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## hawglips (Jul 7, 2010)

Gadget said:


> I keep looking for definitive answers, seems some say it's all 12/g some say it's not, some say the new hevi-13 is more uniform and true to size than the old, others say no, and then the one that it's all #7.5, there is no true #7; The way they change their recipes and components around all the time I guess there might never be a definitive answer.
> 
> If I had some hevi-13 and hevishot of the same size I could run my own density and size tests and find out.



EMs hevishot chart and the actual pellet counts of their hevi-13 #7s proved to me that they are no longer 13g/cc. 

Then, Clark Bush got the President and CEO of EM to allow him to let the cat out of the bag.  (Over on Old Gobbler, Turkey Guns section, in the thread about destination velocities of various shot.)

Here is Clark's report of what Ralph Nauman, President & CEO of Environ-Metal said: 

"The composition of Hevi-13 (a brand name) has varied over the years. EM has experimented with different densities to attempt to make the pellets pattern better. When the ML class was introduced into NWTF competition, shooters using regular 12 gr/cc pellets and black powder consistently had better, higher scoring, patterns than the factory loaded shells, with an equal amount of shot. That caused the engineers at EM to rethink the density of the pellets that were being used in their shells. Over the summer of 2009, EM experimented with different weights, buffering materials, ect. and came up with what they believe to be the best formula for the pellets in Hevi-13 shotshells. It is not 13 gr/cc but is slightly over 12 gr/cc (they consider the exact formula to be proprietary) and plan to keep that formula/density for the Hevi-13 shot in the future."

So, they dropped back down to "slightly over" 12g/cc in order to keep their "world champion" pellet counts up when shooting targets.

But "slightly over" is probably a bit misleading, based on the actual pellet counts folks are getting with the Hevi-13 #7s.


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## Nitro (Jul 7, 2010)

Mr. Longbeard said:


> lol...
> 
> How far was that shot??? Let me guess 40 plus yards...



Nope. 

I know how to position and call Turkeys in close. I don't shoot Nitros so I can kill em father away. 

I shoot Nitros so I can "overkill" em in close.


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## Gadget (Jul 7, 2010)

hawglips said:


> EMs hevishot chart and the actual pellet counts of their hevi-13 #7s proved to me that they are no longer 13g/cc.
> 
> Then, Clark Bush got the President and CEO of EM to allow him to let the cat out of the bag.  (Over on Old Gobbler, Turkey Guns section, in the thread about destination velocities of various shot.)
> 
> ...





ahh..... the official ruling on the matter!.



So basically it's all the same...... Nitro hevishot, which they buy from EM, and EM's hevi-13; it's all the same 12/g cc hevishot ......... just like I thought


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## hawglips (Jul 7, 2010)

Yep.


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## Gadget (Jul 7, 2010)

hawglips said:


> Yep.





So I guess I need to redo this.........



Maximum distance to achieve a minimum of 1.5 inches of penetration into ballistic gelatin with a muzzle velocity of 1,100fps.


These are the closest match to TSS #9's

TSS #9 18g/cc = 64.5yds
Federal heavyweight #7.5 15g/cc = 62.8yds
Nitro hevishot/hevi-13 #5 12g/cc = 64.5yds
lead #4 11g/cc = 64.8yds
Steel #BB 7.9g/cc = 61.7yds


Comparison of other popular turkey shot, maximum distance to achieve 1.5 inches of penetration into ballistic gelatin.

Nitro hevishot/hevi-13 #6 = 51.4yds
Nitro hevishot/hevi-13 #7 = 39yds
Nitro hevishot/hevi-13 #7.5 = 33.2
Lead #5 = 52.7yds
Lead #6 = 41.2yds



Going from 1,100fps to 1,200fps muzzle velocity on all loads only adds about 5yds of penetration !!

similarly, going down from 1,100 to only 1,000fps decreases about 5 as well.


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## hawglips (Jul 7, 2010)

How about that same 1.5" of penetration using TSS #8s at 1100 fps:

...85.3 yds...

More than double the distance of Hevi-13 #7s, with about the same number of pellets per ounce.


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## Gadget (Jul 7, 2010)

hawglips said:


> How about that same 1.5" of penetration using TSS #8s at 1100 fps:
> 
> ...85.3 yds...
> 
> More than double the distance of Hevi-13 #7s, with about the same number of pellets per ounce.





yeah that's amazing.......... guess I "overkilled" all those gobblers last season....


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## Nitro (Jul 7, 2010)

Gadget said:


> yeah that's amazing.......... guess I "overkilled" all those gobblers last season....



I am sure that you did.


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## hawglips (Jul 7, 2010)

Gadget said:


> yeah that's amazing.......... guess I "overkilled" all those gobblers last season....



Your 2.25 oz. loads of TSS #8s are like shooting a 4 oz. load of Hevishot #4s.....


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## Gadget (Jul 7, 2010)

hawglips said:


> Your 2.25 oz. loads of TSS #8s are like shooting a 4 oz. load of Hevishot #4s.....





Sounds like your making a joke.......funny thing is that's a true statement.



Had a good test session.

Worked up my 2 3/4" 1 5/8oz 20ga load and sighted in my Docter in just two shots ........... perfect!  

293 in 10" circle with my one shell, I'll be in the 300's when I make some minor adjustments; this 20ga load has about the same number of pellets as a 2 1/4oz 4X5X7 Nitro 12ga load and patterns just as well or better....... I think that'll do

Will be sending with the  2 3/4 12 ga to the lab this week or next.


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## hawglips (Jul 8, 2010)

Gadget said:


> Worked up my 2 3/4" 1 5/8oz 20ga load and sighted in my Docter in just two shots ........... perfect!
> 
> 293 in 10" circle with my one shell, I'll be in the 300's when I make some minor adjustments; this 20ga load has about the same number of pellets as a 2 1/4oz 4X5X7 Nitro 12ga load and patterns just as well or better....... I think that'll do



So, that 20 ga. load is about like shooting a 3-1/2 oz. load of Hevishot #5s.....

But with a lot less kick....


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## Big Andy (Jul 8, 2010)

After reading all this I am really confused  on what I thought was the best shot.  

Need to get with some of you and shoot my gun and see what would work best for me.


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## hawglips (Jul 8, 2010)

Big Andy said:


> After reading all this I am really confused  on what I thought was the best shot.
> 
> Need to get with some of you and shoot my gun and see what would work best for me.



Pick any one of these and you will be better off than you would be with most any lead load.

Nitros hevishot 4x5x7
Nitros hevishot 7
Hevi-13 magnum blend
Hevi-13 #7s
Hevi-13 #6s (2 oz. 3")
Win XRHD #6s
Win XRHD #5s
Fed Hwt #7s


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## Turkeydoghunter (Jul 8, 2010)

gadget can i place an order for them 20 ga shells?


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## Big Andy (Jul 11, 2010)

I just bought some heavy13 from BPS.  Can't wait to see what they do.


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## trkyhntr70 (Jul 11, 2010)

Nitro said:


> Wait til the one I bought gets to Curtis.............. it's a beater on the outside.... won't matter, she will get dipped in MO Obsession.......



The Obsession will look sweet on that gun!


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## Nitro (Jul 11, 2010)

I hope I can find someone to do it....... it looks like that may be an issue.


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## trkyhntr70 (Jul 11, 2010)

Nitro said:


> I hope I can find someone to do it....... it looks like that may be an issue.



pm'd ya.


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## Nitro (Jul 11, 2010)

Thanks!!


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