# Why Bother Trying to Convince Atheists There is A God?



## crackerdave (Feb 3, 2010)

Unless you get pleasure from this:


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## earl (Feb 3, 2010)

I'm surprised at you . What if folks had given up on CS Lewis ?


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## Capt Quirk (Feb 3, 2010)

Most Judeo-Christians look at it as their job in life. Over the past couple thousand years, it has been a convert or kill operation. Muslims are almost as fanatical, and even worse in other ways. Atheists are tired of trying to be coerced into believing. The only ones that don't seem to have an agenda, are the Buddhists.

When all is said and done, not everybody can be convinced until their time is up and they find out for themselves.


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## Rush_Fan (Feb 3, 2010)

Isn't that what The Great Commission is about? Spreading the Gospel to unbelievers?


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## gordon 2 (Feb 3, 2010)

It should be sufficient to point to the Kingdom perhaps and the challenges therein: for the God thing seems percieved as not unlike a drug thing. The Kingdom however cannot be denied, not less than Marroco or Haiti or the Sir Isaac Newton chair at Oxford: not for the physical bodies, but for the spirit and the Spirit that is their's.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 3, 2010)

Rush_Fan said:


> Isn't that what The Great Commission is about? Spreading the Gospel to unbelievers?



Yes the unsaved need to be ministered  too by impressing that their greatest purpose and prosperity in this world is with God. Which is why the examples of christians can't be half-donkey.


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 4, 2010)

it aint about pleasure. 

its about being obedient to Christ and sharing the truth of Christ with the lost of the world...  

Noah did not experience pleasure when he spent 120 years sharing the Gospel with the fools of his time just to be laughed at. he preached 120 years and had no converts... thats not pleasure but obedience. his mockers did not benefit... but Noah did, greatly.

the Apostles did not experience pleasure when they traveled the region and shared the Gospel of Christ with the unbelieving just to get murdered for their faith. Satan comes to destroy. most underestimate the accuracy of the Bible to their own destruction.

Jesus did not experience pleasure when He was laughed at and spit on for sharing the truth of salvation and ended up on the cross.

if we want pleasure we need to go to Destin... if we want to share in the glory of the Lord... we need to follow Christ.


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## Double Barrel BB (Feb 4, 2010)

There comes a time when it is best to step back... All you or anyone can do is expose the person to the Gospel.... God has to change the heart... Anyway... it was God that put you in the right place to minister to the atheist...

Sometimes God will Save... Sometimes He won't... That is entirely up to God!

DB BB


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## crackerdave (Feb 4, 2010)

Double Barrel BB said:


> There comes a time when it is best to step back... All you or anyone can do is expose the person to the Gospel.... God has to change the heart... Anyway... it was God that put you in the right place to minister to the atheist...
> 
> Sometimes God will Save... Sometimes He won't... That is entirely up to God!
> 
> DB BB



Great post,brother!

We are _not_ told to argue endlessly and/or viciously with anybody.Remember Jesus' words about pearls and swine?We are to offer a clear and simple presentation of the Gospel - and after that,it's God's bidness.


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## crackerdave (Feb 4, 2010)

earl said:


> I'm surprised at you . What if folks had given up on CS Lewis ?



Earl,you know as well as I do: "Folks" didn't save C.S. Lewis,or anybody else.


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## gtparts (Feb 4, 2010)

earl said:


> I'm surprised at you . What if folks had given up on CS Lewis ?



I'm sure many did. But, the encounter with God was, at least in part, his doing. He kept asking questions and looking for the answers, yet, if he had not been open to the Truth, having been exposed to it... and thoroughly, he would have walked away as the rich, young ruler that was instructed to get rid of whatever kept him from God. In fact, it may have been easier for Lewis, since he had already been prepared by losing some things he held dear, he was ready for the one thing he could never lose.


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## pnome (Feb 4, 2010)




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## crackerdave (Feb 4, 2010)

pnome said:


>



  I like you,Pnome! Even if you are evil


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## Huntinfool (Feb 4, 2010)

I will say, for a long time I felt as though I somehow "needed" to convince them.  After a long period of growth, I've realized that they will not simply be convinced (for the various reasons stated in the past from the Bible).

My approach at this point is to love them the way Christ commands me and answer questions IF they are asked.  If an atheist isn't seeking...I don't reckon I can find for them.


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## crackerdave (Feb 4, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> I will say, for a long time I felt as though I somehow "needed" to convince them.  After a long period of growth, I've realized that they will not simply be convinced (for the various reasons stated in the past from the Bible).
> 
> My approach at this point is to love them the way Christ commands me and answer questions IF they are asked.  If an atheist isn't seeking...I don't reckon I can find for them.



Amen from the back row on _that,_ brother.

If they weren't seeking,I don't reckon they'd bother us.
Some are seeking answers about God,and some are seeking to destroy.


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## crackerdave (Feb 4, 2010)

Capt Quirk said:


> Most Judeo-Christians look at it as their job in life. Over the past couple thousand years, it has been a convert or kill operation. Muslims are almost as fanatical, and even worse in other ways. Atheists are tired of trying to be coerced into believing. The only ones that don't seem to have an agenda, are the Buddhists.
> 
> When all is said and done, not everybody can be convinced until their time is up and they find out for themselves.



I daresay there's been many a death-bed conversion!

Great to "hear" from ya,Cap'n! Hows things out in the jungle these days?


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## Capt Quirk (Feb 4, 2010)

Goin about as well as can be expected Dave, no better, no worse


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## crackerdave (Feb 4, 2010)

Capt Quirk said:


> Goin about as well as can be expected Dave, no better, no worse



It'll get better!
 I lived in a tent in the Ocala Nat'l. Forest for two years,eating whatever I could get a holt of. I look back on those days now,and it seems like it was fun.Beans and rice with a squirrel laig in it will tend to get a little "old," though,in reality.


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## Huntinfool (Feb 4, 2010)

Eric?  Is that you?


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## mtnwoman (Feb 4, 2010)

crackerdave said:


> Unless you get pleasure from this:



Oh it isn't pleasurable by any means...I just throw out a few seeds and jump back and hope one takes 'aholt' soon.


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## Jeffriesw (Feb 4, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> I will say, for a long time I felt as though I somehow "needed" to convince them.  After a long period of growth, I've realized that they will not simply be convinced (for the various reasons stated in the past from the Bible).
> 
> My approach at this point is to love them the way Christ commands me and answer questions IF they are asked.  If an atheist isn't seeking...I don't reckon I can find for them.



Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Lowjack (Feb 4, 2010)

crackerdave said:


> Unless you get pleasure from this:



I no Longer try to, take note, Jesus Himself , Spoke of the Kingdom of God, he never argued about the things we like to, If You believed him you were saved and if you didn't you were not saved.
He never asked the congregations to lift up their arms if they believe or come up front , while the Apostles sang a Hymn, He knew Belief and conversion happens deep in the heart and mind.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 4, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> I no Longer try to, take note, Jesus Himself , Spoke of the Kingdom of God, he never argued about the things we like to, If You believed him you were saved and if you didn't you were not saved.
> He never asked the congregations to lift up their arms if they believe or come up front , while the Apostles sang a Hymn, He knew Belief and conversion happens deep in the heart and mind.



Yes it does happen deep in the heart and mind. But for me it overflows to the physical with my outward showing (like baptism) by raising my hands and humbling myself at the only alter I can find, which is usually at the front of the church. If the Holy Spirit is working in church, then you will be moved, and fortunately for me, the Holy Spirit is always in my church and I'm humbled to tears and to my knees....and singing is another way I worship and praise my Lord without pride.

To me it's an outward expression of an inward miracle.

Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them

Psalm 42:4
When I remember these things, I pour out my soul in me: for I had gone with the multitude, I went with them to the house of God, with the voice of joy and praise, with a multitude that kept holyday.


Luke 19:37
And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen;


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## DYI hunting (Feb 4, 2010)

> Why Bother Trying to Convince Atheists There is A God?



Because they try to convince me there is not one and it makes for interesting conversation.


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## earl (Feb 4, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> I no Longer try to, take note, Jesus Himself , Spoke of the Kingdom of God, he never argued about the things we like to, If You believed him you were saved and if you didn't you were not saved.
> He never asked the congregations to lift up their arms if they believe or come up front , while the Apostles sang a Hymn, He knew Belief and conversion happens deep in the heart and mind.





What !?!?? No works ????


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## Lowjack (Feb 4, 2010)

mtnwoman said:


> Yes it does happen deep in the heart and mind. But for me it overflows to the physical with my outward showing (like baptism) by raising my hands and humbling myself at the only alter I can find, which is usually at the front of the church. If the Holy Spirit is working in church, then you will be moved, and fortunately for me, the Holy Spirit is always in my church and I'm humbled to tears and to my knees....and singing is another way I worship and praise my Lord without pride.
> 
> To me it's an outward expression of an inward miracle.
> 
> ...



Oh Yeah Lifting OF HANDS IN PRAISE IS DIFFERENT THAN LIFTING YOUR HAND IN PUBLIC so that preacher knows he reached somebody, that was my point.
All we can do is tell them about Christ , believing happens inside of them , when the Holy Spirit convicts them of sin.


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## gurn (Feb 5, 2010)

Capt Quirk said:


> Most Judeo-Christians look at it as their job in life. Over the past couple thousand years, it has been a convert or kill operation. Muslims are almost as fanatical, and even worse in other ways. Atheists are tired of trying to be coerced into believing. The only ones that don't seem to have an agenda, are the Buddhists.
> 
> When all is said and done, not everybody can be convinced until their time is up and they find out for themselves.



I think ya might be confusing Christianity (the New Testament) With folks praticing their own religon under it's name. I could not find any place in the New Testament that comands us to  kill due to anothers faith or lack of.
That would not fault Christianity, only the nature of the beast (mankind). The New Testament full well reconizes the nature of the beast, and condems it.
I also dissagree that most Christians see it as their mission in life, although they should. IMO
 If even 1/4 of the folks in this country that professes Christianity were out trying to convert others.
You would not be able to do anything, or go anywhere without being approched.


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## crackerdave (Feb 5, 2010)

Some plant seeds,some help the seed sprout,some nourish the young plant and help it grow strong and reproduce.


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## Capt Quirk (Feb 5, 2010)

gurn said:


> I think ya might be confusing Christianity (the New Testament) With folks praticing their own religon under it's name. I could not find any place in the New Testament that comands us to  kill due to anothers faith or lack of.
> That would not fault Christianity, only the nature of the beast (mankind). The New Testament full well reconizes the nature of the beast, and condems it.
> I also dissagree that most Christians see it as their mission in life, although they should. IMO
> If even 1/4 of the folks in this country that professes Christianity were out trying to convert others.
> You would not be able to do anything, or go anywhere without being approched.



1) The Inquisitions
2) The American Indians
3) The South American Natives

Those are just off the top of my head.


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## WTM45 (Feb 5, 2010)

DYI hunting said:


> Because they try to convince me there is not one and it makes for interesting conversation.



That's the most concise answer I've read in this thread.

Want to get REALLY interesting?  Take up the conversation with a Buddhist Monk.


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## crackerdave (Feb 5, 2010)

Buddhist Monks are kinda skeerce around these parts.Guess you'll hafta make do with us!


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## WTM45 (Feb 5, 2010)

crackerdave said:


> Buddhist Monks are kinda skeerce around these parts.Guess you'll hafta make do with us!



I'm never complaining!
I like the company here!


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## Diogenes (Feb 6, 2010)

Am I the only one that sees the obvious flaw in the argument that the Christian God will eventually convince those who fail to believe in such a thing?

I’m a happy victim of such condescending nonsense, and clearly I’m all in favor of the debate, ‘cause it is fun all day long,  but really, what is your feeling about this Islamic God who keeps telling His folks to blow us all up unless we convert? Like the Christian God used to do, before folks got tired of getting killed in the name of the Christian God, and put a stop to that crap.

I mean, those Islamic folks don’t seem to be as patient as you are, and their God seems like a bit of work to appease . . .


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## Israel (Feb 6, 2010)

Capt Quirk said:


> 1) The Inquisitions
> 2) The American Indians
> 3) The South American Natives
> 
> Those are just off the top of my head.



I believe you'll find more than a few on here who understand the strong appeal of religion as self justification with it's resultant violence and coercion.
I know full well that to an outsider one "brand" of Christ looks the same as any other, especially when men got to such great measures to make sure they paint their brand with that name as largely writ as possible.
If you look at Jesus though, you'll find he didn't come to uphold his own name, but the one who sent him. 
And you will see he teaches his disciples to be unconcerned about those who refuse his message...and to love and cherish, with his love, those who do. 
The religious mask, the thing we can so easily put on to try to display our devotion to something other than ourselves, and so deceive others, is something with which every disciple is familiar.
To look devout, as opposed to being devout, are the treacherous religious waters through which every disciple must navigate...almost continually.
To resist trying to display the "trueness" of yourself, and wait rather for the revelation of the only self worthy of men's praise...
All the events/mistreatments/holocausts you mention are the result of men seeking to make a fair show of themselves, that Christ's name was a convenience to accomplish this is a shame. And each will answer for it.

The Jesus you don't believe in, I don't believe in, either.


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## gtparts (Feb 6, 2010)

Israel said:


> I believe you'll find more than a few on here who understand the strong appeal of religion as self justification with it's resultant violence and coercion.
> I know full well that to an outsider one "brand" of Christ looks the same as any other, especially when men got to such great measures to make sure they paint their brand with that name as largely writ as possible.
> If you look at Jesus though, you'll find he didn't come to uphold his own name, but the one who sent him.
> And you will see he teaches his disciples to be unconcerned about those who refuse his message...and to love and cherish, with his love, those who do.
> ...



Sometimes those things done "in the name of Jesus" have as much to do with Jesus as the bobbinhead German shepherd on the parcel shelf (package tray, if you will) of a '57' chevy. Yet, over and over, those who seek to distance themselves from the Light, dredge up the works of sinful men to justify their rejection of Jesus. 
It is called darkness for a reason.


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## Capt Quirk (Feb 6, 2010)

My problem isn't with Jesus, or God, whether it turns out to be Yewah, Jehovoh, or even Zeus. The problem is organized religion, or to be more exact, the fact that organized religion is lead by men. Man is flawed and corrupt, and will tarnish truth to suit their needs. This isn't 100% across the board, because there are certainly some good ministers, priests, etc. Man wrote the Bible, has edited it, and interprets it. Look at the Church of England, restructured to suit the wants of a lecherous King, placing him as an equal to God. The Roman Catholic's Pope sits in luxury that a King would envy, and it was a Pope that started the Crusades because the Pilgrims couldn't get to travel to the Holy Land.

I'm not slamming belief, just mislead beliefs. Churches have stepped into the role of middle man, when there shouldn't be. Most of the problems with the Muslims arise, not because Allah hates everyone else, but because his Clerics do. Again, misrepresentation and leadership.


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## gtparts (Feb 6, 2010)

Capt Quirk said:


> My problem isn't with Jesus, or God, whether it turns out to be Yewah, Jehovoh, or even Zeus. The problem is organized religion, or to be more exact, the fact that organized religion is lead by men. Man is flawed and corrupt, and will tarnish truth to suit their needs. This isn't 100% across the board, because there are certainly some good ministers, priests, etc. Man wrote the Bible, has edited it, and interprets it. Look at the Church of England, restructured to suit the wants of a lecherous King, placing him as an equal to God. The Roman Catholic's Pope sits in luxury that a King would envy, and it was a Pope that started the Crusades because the Pilgrims couldn't get to travel to the Holy Land.
> 
> I'm not slamming belief, just mislead beliefs. Churches have stepped into the role of middle man, when there shouldn't be. Most of the problems with the Muslims arise, not because Allah hates everyone else, but because his Clerics do. Again, misrepresentation and leadership.



I hear you on the point of what some men have made of religious beliefs (though it seems like the Christian faith is the one most often co-opted by "counterfeiters"), but I have to disagree as to the assertion that you have no problem with Jesus. What I "hear" you saying is that you have not concluded that He is who He says He is. If I may be so bold, your indecision IS a decision. "Not now, not yet." is a delaying tactic that may work to your eternal regret. I urge you to pursue the answer to the question with all haste. Above any other, it is the most important one you will ever make. 

Who is this Jesus?


I know others and, perhaps you also will find it trite, but I will be praying for you.


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 6, 2010)

Capt Quirk said:


> My problem isn't with Jesus, or God, whether it turns out to be Yewah, Jehovoh, or even Zeus.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




totally true. again.  but did you ever consider that all of these men could be wrong in their beliefs and their actions (crusades, jihad, etc) are not following Christ?

Christ never told us to jihad.  or to burn heretics.  He said "follow me".

Christ has nothing to do with organized religion.  His biggest enemies in His day were the religious judaizers.  the God of the Bible never instructed anyone to be "religious".  did you know that you can be a disciple of Christ and not have an ounce of religion in you?

people have taken the Bible and mixed with their own beliefs, interpretations and traditions and have created religion.  but who says that is what we're supposed to do?  men did. not Christ.

we cannot blame Christ or Christianity for the atrocities that have been done in the name of religion...  religion created those atrocities, not Christ.

if alex rodriguez goes out and commits murder. should the whole yankee team go to jail? no.  should a fan of the yankees hate the yankees because A-rod killed somebody? no. the yankee team had nothing to do with the actions of A-rod...  should golf never be played again by the public because Tiger is an infidel? no.

just because sinful men have run around the world killing others in the name of religion does not mean God had anything to do with it.  you cannot toss out God altogether because men do something evil in His name....  those are just misinformed religious men.  but totally wrong in their actions...

this is actually a ploy by satan.  get evil men to run around killing others in the name of religion so that others will relate murder and religion together and thereby dislike God and His Word...


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## WTM45 (Feb 6, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> Christ has nothing to do with organized religion.



It's pretty well documented that Jesus grew up in the typical Hebrew male traditions and studied Judiasm.
He claimed to be the "Son of God" and some claimed him to be "God Incarnate" or actually "God" himself.
That caused issues.

He tried to convince those who already DID believe in the "God of Abraham" that he was "God."
Think about that for a minute, and compare it to the title of the thread.


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## Israel (Feb 6, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> It's pretty well documented that Jesus grew up in the typical Hebrew male traditions and studied Judiasm.
> He claimed to be the "Son of God" and some claimed him to be "God Incarnate" or actually "God" himself.
> _That caused issues._




I know you are not being facetious.

Some of us here understand that every bit of what has taken place in this world has taken place with only two motivations.
1. To uphold precisely what Jesus says about himself.
2. To seek to cover and resist the truth of those claims.


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## WTM45 (Feb 6, 2010)

No, I'm not being "facetious."  I'm quite the realist.
It caused issues with the leadership of that day's Judiasm religious belief system.
That's what I was leading to.


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 6, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> It's pretty well documented that Jesus grew up in the typical Hebrew male traditions and studied Judiasm.
> He claimed to be the "Son of God" and some claimed him to be "God Incarnate" or actually "God" himself.
> That caused issues.
> 
> ...



true. except for the Son of God part.  Jesus referred to Himself as the Son of Man.  others called Him the Son of God.  difference.

He had to grow up in jewish tradition but he did not command those traditions.  if He did, then only the jews could receive salvation.  He died for all of mankind but only those who heard His words and kept them would be considered His children.

Jesus did not teach nor his apostles that we follow any of the jewish traditions.

Paul said, "follow the traditions which ye have been taught" (2 Thes 2:15)... meaning follow the traditions that Jesus and the Apostles "taught" either by WORD of EPISTLE... santa claus is in neither... When Paul was converted by Jesus... Paul no longer followed the traditions of the jews such as sabbath, passover, etc...  the New Testament brought new traditions (as taught by the Bible, Lords Supper, baptism, etc) but not religion. true Christianity is not about religion but about Christ.


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## crackerdave (Feb 6, 2010)

It caused exactly what God planned for it to cause!


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## WTM45 (Feb 6, 2010)

Wrong BH.

John 14:6-9
John 6:37-40
John 10:24-30
John 8:56-58
John 4:25-26
Matthew 16:15-17
Matthew 26:63-64
Luke 22:70
John 10:36-38

Although some wish to show Jesus' teachings as a belief system all to itself, it is really a continuation and addition to Judiasm.
Christianity is a religious belief system.  No matter how fragmented and denominational, it is a religion.


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 6, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Wrong BH.
> 
> John 14:6-9
> John 6:37-40
> ...



what was i wrong about?

Christianity is not a continuation of anything except God revealing to mankind His ways...

"judaism" did not even exist for the first couple of thousands of years...

religion means to "place something in bondage".

Jesus came to set people free.

Galatians 5:1-3
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage (judaism) 2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, (judaism) Christ shall profit you nothing.

 3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, (judaism) that he is a debtor to do the whole law.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 6, 2010)

Capt Quirk said:


> The problem is ... organized religion is lead by men.



There's no getting around that.  Jesus trained twelve men, who trained others, who trained others.


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## crackerdave (Feb 6, 2010)

Gotta have some popcorn on that one!


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## WTM45 (Feb 6, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> what was i wrong about?
> 
> Christianity is not a continuation of anything except God revealing to mankind His ways...
> 
> ...



Read those passages and you will see your first statement in post #42 is incorrect.

Christianity is a religious belief system, developed from Judiasm.  There is no argument on that fact.


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## Israel (Feb 6, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> No, I'm not being "facetious."  I'm quite the realist.
> It caused issues with the leadership of that day's Judiasm religious belief system.
> That's what I was leading to.



Man, it caused...and continues to cause issues with every form of "leadership"
...except God's.

Acts 17:6 And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have _turned the world upside down_ are come hither also;


He causes just as much a problem with baptist, catholic, presbyterian, lutheran,
leadership as ever he did with any form of religious structure.
He is the definer.
When we build things of ourselves to try and confine him to our set of doctrines...and then form a whole organization around that...and mistakenly imagine he is content with our containers...he shows himself to be who he is...the Prince of Life, not the prince of form.

You may rightly discern the "jews" displeasure at his revelation...an open heaven! No need to go through men anymore, no need to follow the strict and unyielding structure whose very nature bears this continual testimony "you are flawed, you are flawed". And which, (though the law is holy and good)...was used by again (sinful) men to gain advantage, used for their own exaltation, used for their own profit.
Now, through one man, by one spirit there is freedom from sin, freedom from the condemnation of the law of sin and death, and access to God unhindered. 
And God extends his call to all, jew and gentile, bond and free, wise and feeble, rich and poor.
Yes, there were, and are issues as God assumes his rightful place in the lives of all men through Christ. 
There is one whose time is short, whose condemnation is revealed, whose institutions and structures he has so craftily imposed to keep men under his thumb are all revealed for the house of cards they are.
And God, in showing his power through Christ gives no instruction to burn them, nor to dismantle them, nor to blow them up.
His simple instruction is always...just heed your Lord, and they will surely fall.
Just follow in humility of mind and heart and watch God turn that obedience to reveal the fire that will consume the whole of the world.

Our God is a consuming fire...watching only for him makes us irresistible to him...and as he draws near his mere presence does all it has ever done, purifies what is his, incinerates what is not.


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## WTM45 (Feb 6, 2010)

Is it because Christians see so much fault in belief systems other than their own, that they denounce everything else as "religion" and that their following the teachings of Jesus as being the only thing that is correct?
Exclusivism?

Then why are there so dog gone many denominations of the teachings of Jesus?  Is it because the selected and compiled (by some authority) writings of man are so subject to interpretation?
At least some denominations make the attempt to do the interpreting for their followers, so all are on the same page.
The idea of individual interpretation, even if assisted by a "Holy Ghost" or a "Holy Spirit" is the very reason for the differences of opinion, interpretation and even exclusivity.


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## Israel (Feb 6, 2010)

WTM

A critical reading of the scriptures...particularly the writings of Paul and the other apostles reveals the frequent, if not constant, admonishments (and their necessity) encouragements, reproofs and occasional rebukes. There are course corrections all along the way, not a monolothic statement of total and perfected obedience, or an attempt to represent a harmony the world would accept or understand.
Just a repetition of the son of God already made perfect, whose vision is to fill the believer's eyes, and will, by his work of revelation bring all of his own to the maturity he desires.

It is not without note, especially in light of some of the things Jesus said when confronting the jews of his day about their stated fealty and devotion to the patriarchs, that Paul (and many others) would encounter the same resistance, the same gainsaying, the same need to humble himself that we might hear correctly.
We easily exalt those who have "gone before", and often imagine our idolization is the equivalent of the obedience God desires.


and (If you are not able to answer this, all well and good) 

But I am, and am confident so many on here are as well...in other words...

If the red carpet were rolled out, and God had announced by his angels the resurrection of our brother Paul and that he will appear tomorrow at a local congregation to share a message for their edification.
And so, as he turns the corner... and wonders at the carpet, marvels at the throngs out front clapping at his approach and the pastor thrusts out a hand in greeting...he looks up to see above the entryway, carved in wonderful stonework "St Paul's Church"...
(Or even St Peter's)

Do you know what his "sermon" might be? Do you think he might start before he got to the "pulpit"?

WTM, we believers have always appeared a rag tag mess to the world, our unity is only discernible in the spirit that is given to us, and never of our own striving, and surely nothing we are able to display that the world would understand.
We are men struggling out of grave clothes and our only call is to him who is the firstborn of the dead...
our dance is done to music of the eternal with every move to be revealed as carefully crafted by the heavenly choreographer. The patient man is dancing with the frustrated and irritable, the wise is embracing the foolish, the most nimble is partnered with the halt and lame,  the fast with the slow...
It is all Jesus in each and every one... willing to remain to the world the one who has no beauty that we should desire him, but whose call, to those with ears to hear...is irresistible.


----------



## WTM45 (Feb 6, 2010)

I'd think after an actual resurrection one would have a lot to say that has diddly to do with any building or carpet found on this planet.


----------



## gtparts (Feb 6, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Is it because Christians see so much fault in belief systems other than their own, that they denounce everything else as "religion" and that their following the teachings of Jesus as being the only thing that is correct?
> Exclusivism?
> 
> Then why are there so dog gone many denominations of the teachings of Jesus?  Is it because the selected and compiled (by some authority) writings of man are so subject to interpretation?
> ...



I still have a difficult time understanding this exclusivity of which you write. The way of the Lord Jesus is most certainly offered to all. It is only those who reject Christ's gift of salvation that , who by doing so, exclude themselves.

On another note, what you see of men is either consistent with Christ or it is not. Sadly, there are some who delight in setting some bar of their own as though by some authority they are called to measure all others.

A lost person is lost and will never measure up on his own. His lost condition is apparent, it issues from an unregenerate heart and can not be hid from God, though he may try to hide it from men. There is no need to measure.

The saved are under God's grace and as such no one has authority to measure. As with the lost man, his life will reflect to whom he belongs and to whom he does not belong.

As for denominations, they are a construct of man in an attempt to confirm the doctrines that they hold to be true. Some I am in agreement with because I find them to be biblical, but others, I take as just the pleadings of men. From my observations, some things are overblown attempts to major on the minor points that do not have anything to do with being saved or not. 

If I go to McDonalds I know pretty much what they have on the menu. Likewise, if I go to a UMC church or SBC church, I've got a clue to what they profess to believe. I am at peace with attending and worshiping with them or I am not. It is nice to know whether I will be expected to be in close proximity to venomous serpents.

Seems like denominations are a much bigger deal for you than a fair number of Christians on this forum... or maybe it is just a way of rationalizing your rejection of Jesus.
Suffice it to say, pleading ignorance, confusion, or outright placing the blame on the denominational clutter will not cut it with God. I hope you don't find out the hard way. The choice is yours.


----------



## WTM45 (Feb 6, 2010)

gt, the exclusivity I refer to is simply that when one way believes it is the only way over all others.
Christianity is fundamentally exclusive.  The whole premise of everyone else is lost and doomed and only believers are somehow special is the very basic foundation of exclusivity.
Other religious belief systems share that foundation as well.
Join it, believe in it or be lost for eternity without it.  All other beliefs are WRONG.  You will suffer extreme discomfort without it.
That's exclusivity.
It has nothing to do with the individual decision to "join up" or "become a member."  It is much greater than that.

Most believers can not face that, nor talk about that because they hold such a mindset of exclusion.  I look much further past denominations, as I see those differences as nothing but static.


----------



## BeenHuntn (Feb 6, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> gt, the exclusivity I refer to is simply that when one way believes it is the only way over all others.
> Christianity is fundamentally exclusive.  The whole premise of everyone else is lost and doomed and only believers are somehow special is the very basic foundation of exclusivity.
> Other religious belief systems share that foundation as well.
> Join it, believe in it or be lost for eternity without it.  All other beliefs are WRONG.  You will suffer extreme discomfort without it.
> ...



Christians say believe or burn because thats what God says and Jesus too...  both say believe or burn. we're only repeating what They said. its called "believing the Bible" and a really neat concept... 

you can call it exclusivity or whatever you want... its Biblical.  if you dont like it take it up with God, not the believers. we didnt make the rules He did. if you got a problem with your burger do you want to take it up with the cook or the store owner?

God says unbelievers go to helll. the believers didnt make that rule, God did.  i have family members who are unbelievers and will perish... if it were up to me they would go to heaven... but its not up to me or any of the believers.
God calls the shots...  i dont understand why thats so hard for folks.


----------



## WTM45 (Feb 6, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> Christians say believe or burn because thats what God says and Jesus too...  both say believe or burn. we're only repeating what They said. its called "believing the Bible" and a really neat concept...
> 
> you can call it exclusivity or whatever you want... its Biblical.  if you dont like it take it up with God, not the believers. we didnt make the rules He did. if you got a problem with your burger do you want to take it up with the cook or the store owner?
> 
> ...



Prove God.  And prove that God is the "God of Abraham."
Prove what you are relying on is truly God's words.
You can not.
Actually, you are simply repeating what some others have said, as you are not firsthand witness of any of it.

But through faith you can believe.  I understand.

But, in a nutshell, THAT is why it is so hard for some folks.


----------



## Israel (Feb 6, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> I'd think after an actual resurrection one would have a lot to say that has diddly to do with any building or carpet found on this planet.



I am sure you are right, but now, I believe you are being facetious.

The point being Jesus addressed some who said:

_If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets._
Matthew 23:30 

Just as there are those today who imagine,

"Had I lived as a disciple in the time of Paul, I would have paid heed to his every word..." 

For as we know so many gave him a hard time.

It's the foolish pride of life spoken of, where folks look back and imagine themselves superior to their forebears.

So, to you the claim that believers do not present a monolithic front to the world (which so many actually put the lie to by easily grouping David Koresh with Jim Elliot, or the Inquisition with those who perished at the martyrs stake) is proof of how confused we must be.

Rather, I see that things remain amongst believers, very much the same...we all struggle against the very same temptations and pitfalls as the early brothers, deal with the same need to learn the voice of the spirit, and learn to quickly ignore the others.

And even you play your part.

There have always been scoffers, will be till the Lord appears.

Questions provoked by feigned offense at exclusivity are all answered then...how no man has ever been farther from the truth than his heart and lips.


----------



## WTM45 (Feb 6, 2010)

Israel said:


> It's the foolish pride of life spoken of, where folks look back and imagine themselves superior to their forebears.



I'm quite confident we have come a LONG way since the times of the apostles and the prophets.

Many more have come since them making supernatural claims.  Some were tortured and killed, others were locked up and medicated.  Some just might sleep tonite under a park bench in a cold city.  Who knows?

I proposed to a professor once the question of "why would a creating deity choose to do the majority of his communication with a young and very lightly populated world, and send a sacrifice of a son at a time when illiteracy, poor communication and poor documentation was prevalent?"

I got a blank stare.


----------



## BeenHuntn (Feb 6, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Prove God.  And prove that God is the "God of Abraham."
> Prove what you are relying on is truly God's words.
> You can not.
> Actually, you are simply repeating what some others have said, as you are not firsthand witness of any of it.
> ...



45, i cant any more prove God than you can disprove Him.  i am not capable of proving anything. i can only share what I believe to be true which is the Bible, prophecy, creation, physics, science, etc...

but the reason i believe it is because i spent thousands of hours researching it. to me its a BIG DEAL.  life is short, eternity is forever... heaven or helll hangs in the balance.  If there is a God, He is the God of the Bible. the "other" gods fail...  they dont pass the test.  brahma, krishna, allah, zeus, evolution, etc all fail the test.  none of those gods can explain creation. none of those gods are prophetic. none of them were men. 

creation should be all that is needed for a person to believe in "a" god.  this universe cannot come from nothing. impossible.  you cannot come from a rock or an amoeba. impossible.  only the God of the Bible explains creation.

watch a few of Kent Hovind's creation videos on the internet.   he can "prove"  the God of the Bible. and dinosaurs. and creation. and the grand canyon. and the flood.  he also disproves evolution. once the God of the Bible is proven all other gods die. once God is proven then Jesus is proven to be true as well as the Bible.


----------



## Israel (Feb 6, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> I'm quite confident we have come a LONG way since the times of the apostles and the prophets.
> 
> Many more have come since them making supernatural claims.  Some were tortured and killed, others were locked up and medicated.  Some just might sleep tonite under a park bench in a cold city.  Who knows?
> 
> ...



That was/is the fullness of God's time.

Because, Jesus being here in the flesh is of no more profit to those sitting in front of flat screen satellite fed systems in unbelief than being presented to the most hardened Pharisaical heart bleeding on the ground around his cross.
Scoffers still shake their head at him.

They have Moses and the prophets, if they don't believe them, neither will they believe if one come back from the dead.


----------



## WTM45 (Feb 7, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> 45, i cant any more prove God than you can disprove Him.  i am not capable of proving anything. i can only share what I believe to be true which is the Bible, prophecy, creation, physics, science, etc...



And, we come full circle.

To the OP, here's the twist.  Those making a claim have to prove that claim as a positive.  It's not up to those who disbelieve your claims to prove the negative.

It is individual choice, individual faith, individual belief.
You can not "convince" anyone of anything that can not be proven through experimentation and the scientific method WITHOUT FAITH.

Hovind is probably a nice guy.  But he proves nothing.  He promotes the "God of the Gaps" and only relies on creation to accept what he can not explain.
Can he be convincing?  That's up to the individual.

David Blaine convinces me of something that others might not be convinced of.  People have to do their own research and make up their own minds.


----------



## BeenHuntn (Feb 7, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> And, we come full circle.
> 
> To the OP, here's the twist.  Those making a claim have to prove that claim as a positive.  It's not up to those who disbelieve your claims to prove the negative.
> 
> ...



anyway, creation has to have a Creator.  nothing can come from nothing.

in math we know:
0 - 0 = 0
0 x 0 = 0
0 + 0 = 0
0 / 0 = 0

that is first grade math. yet all of these brilliant scientists say that the universe can come from 0...  

something as great, complex and vast can come from 0...

if my eternal fate hung in the balance of this "science"... i would be doing some hard core research...  and i would be seeking it from the Kent Hovinds of the world. the scientists that use science to prove God instead of trying to disprove Him...

its a whole lot easier to believe that creation came from a Creator than from nothingingness.  to believe that time can cause all things (bigbang) to happen is a faith.  the only problem is... what if that faith is wrong?


----------



## WTM45 (Feb 7, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> anyway, creation has to have a Creator.  nothing can come from nothing.
> 
> in math we know:
> 0 - 0 = 0
> ...



Using the logic of someone with an agenda?
"Easier" to believe?

Look.  Each person has their own way of finding peace.  And hinting at Pascal's Wager is not a means toward any solution nor is it critical to the decisionmaking process at all.

By the way, zero has a value.  It is an integer.  It is representative not of infinity nor of a vacuum.

If one can believe in a supernatural, then one can easily believe the universe/life/energy has "always been" or has "evolved" to what we see today.
And, there might have been previous existances as well as there could be other parallel existances currently.

Or, it could be the work of an "intelligent design."
What if it was not the "God of Abraham?"  What if it is so flawed and in error the deity does not want the credit for it?


----------



## crackerdave (Feb 7, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> anyway, creation has to have a Creator.  nothing can come from nothing.
> 
> in math we know:
> 0 - 0 = 0
> ...



I have a friend and brother in Christ who is an award-winning science teacher in a local [public/gov't.] high school.He is a devout Christian and as such has to walk a fine line,as a teacher in such a school.We all know gov't. and Jesus don't get along well. This teacher has _no_ problem proclaiming and teaching that faith [big bang,etc,] _is_ wrong.I'm proud to have had him teaching my kids!


----------



## crackerdave (Feb 7, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> gt, the exclusivity I refer to is simply that when one way believes it is the only way over all others.
> Christianity is fundamentally exclusive.  The whole premise of everyone else is lost and doomed and only believers are somehow special is the very basic foundation of exclusivity.
> Other religious belief systems share that foundation as well.
> Join it, believe in it or be lost for eternity without it.  All other beliefs are WRONG.  You will suffer extreme discomfort without it.
> ...



Here it is - once again,plain and simple/brief and to the point: John 14:6  Jesus answered,"I am the way and the truth and the life.No one comes to the Father except through me." 

There is no way man can mess that up with his puny "interpretations" and his "studying" and his "research" and his "science," or his "religion."


----------



## buckpasser (Feb 7, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> And, we come full circle.
> 
> To the OP, here's the twist.  Those making a claim have to prove that claim as a positive.  It's not up to those who disbelieve your claims to prove the negative.
> 
> ...



If you need complete proof to believe, you don't have any faith.  You're right.  What's your point except to say that you don't believe?


----------



## crackerdave (Feb 7, 2010)

buckpasser said:


> If you need complete proof to believe, you don't have any faith.  You're right.  What's your point except to say that you don't believe?



My opinion: His point is to stir up contention and try to create doubt,especially among new believers.Guess where/who _that_ comes from?


----------



## buckpasser (Feb 7, 2010)

crackerdave said:


> My opinion: His point is to stir up contention and try to create doubt,especially among new believers.Guess where/who _that_ comes from?



I would just like to hear that from him.


----------



## WTM45 (Feb 7, 2010)

crackerdave said:


> My opinion: His point is to stir up contention and try to create doubt,especially among new believers.Guess where/who _that_ comes from?



Wrong, CD.
I simply enjoy presenting other views and listening to the responses of others regarding matters of THEIR beliefs and THEIT faith.
Note the thread topics I post on.  I'm not here with any agenda.


----------



## WTM45 (Feb 7, 2010)

crackerdave said:


> Here it is - once again,plain and simple/brief and to the point: John 14:6  Jesus answered,"I am the way and the truth and the life.No one comes to the Father except through me."
> 
> There is no way man can mess that up with his puny "interpretations" and his "studying" and his "research" and his "science," or his "religion."



And that, simply put, is why Christianity is exclusive to all other religious belief systems.  I am quite aware.


----------



## Israel (Feb 7, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Using the logic of someone with an agenda?
> "Easier" to believe?
> 
> Look.  Each person has their own way of finding peace.  _And hinting at Pascal's Wager is not a means toward any solution_ nor is it critical to the decisionmaking process at all.
> ...




In that you say rightly.

Jesus is not looking for "well, it won't hurt to believe this, and all I can do is possibly be a winner...

Faith in Christ is not a result of measuring possible/probable outcomes.

One is either convicted of the reality that Jesus is Lord by the Holy Spirit, or not.
 Now, God will use whatever measures necessary to bring a man to the point of that conviction for his own purpose, but the confession of Jesus as Lord is most emphatically not the following:

Jesus is Lord... because if he's not I lose nothing, but if he is, I gain everything.

There's no hedging of bets in this life...that is life indeed!

Bets are for those who like to take chances.


----------



## WTM45 (Feb 7, 2010)

I would think any deity that intelligently designed humans would be quite irritated in one who "believed" only to "save his own hide."
That deity would see right through such mess.  And that deity would want humans to use the brain and initiative they had been given to find their own answers.

I propose humans NEVER stop talking about and discussing the differences found between religious belief systems and even in non-belief.


----------



## crackerdave (Feb 7, 2010)

Talking and discussing is great,but it's not going to change God's Word or His plan one bit.


----------



## WTM45 (Feb 7, 2010)

crackerdave said:


> Talking and discussing is great,but it's not going to change God's Word or His plan one bit.



No one here is trying to.  It's a firmly established piece of religious literature at this point of history.
It is interesting how it came about and how it has changed over the years though.


----------



## crackerdave (Feb 7, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> No one here is trying to.  It's a firmly established piece of religious literature at this point of history.
> It is interesting how it came about and how it has changed over the years though.



By this,I'm assuming you mean God's Word,a.k.a. the Holy Bible? Exactly _how_ do you think it has changed,and who changed it - if you don't mind me asking?


----------



## Madman (Feb 9, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Prove God.



Prove a Neutrino.

Faith in science?


----------



## Madman (Feb 9, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> It is interesting how it came about and how it has changed over the years though.



Please provide chapter and verse of what has changed.


----------



## pnome (Feb 9, 2010)

Madman said:


> Prove a Neutrino.
> 
> Faith in science?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino_detector

I don't think you see the difference here.  No one has "faith" that neutrino exist.  They suspect that they might, and have a way to test that suspicion.   That is science.

Is there a way we could test God?


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 9, 2010)

Madman said:


> Please provide chapter and verse of what has changed.



LOL    We've asked for that a thousand times....not gonna happen, Madman.


----------



## Madman (Feb 9, 2010)

> I don't think you see the difference here. No one has "faith" that neutrino exist. They suspect that they might, and have a way to test that suspicion. That is science.


There is no difference.  Scientist believe there is a subatomic particle that exists but it cannot be seen, or weighed or measured because it has no electrical charge and very little mass, which according to some scientist may even be zero.  So science studies it by the way it acts on larger objects it encounters.

God works on objects He encounters also, all one needs do is open the door and let the encounter begin.


----------



## Madman (Feb 9, 2010)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> LOL    We've asked for that a thousand times....not gonna happen, Madman.



But I have to keep giving them the opportunity.


----------



## pnome (Feb 9, 2010)

Madman said:


> There is no difference.  Scientist believe there is a subatomic particle that exists but it cannot be seen, or weighed or measured because it has no electrical charge and very little mass, which according to some scientist may even be zero.  So science studies it by the way it acts on larger objects it encounters.
> 
> God works on objects He encounters also, all one needs do is open the door and let the encounter begin.




I await your construction  of a "God detector" and you test results.


----------



## Madman (Feb 9, 2010)

pnome said:


> They suspect that they might, and...dream about doing things. Engineers do them.”


----------



## pnome (Feb 9, 2010)

Madman said:


> And I thought I was just a lowly engineer.  Apparently I am also a scientist.   You see I suspected that God existed so set up an experiment to see and low and behold He does exist.   I would argue that anyone who sets up a comparable experiment will see that he exists.
> 
> “Scientists dream about doing things. Engineers do them.”



Care to share your method and results?  Maybe a little peer review to see if your conclusion is sound.


----------



## Madman (Feb 9, 2010)

pnome said:


> Care to share your method and results?  Maybe a little peer review to see if your conclusion is sound.



At 2:30 one morning 16 years ago I told Him that if He was real I wanted Him to reveal Himself to me, and he did.
He did the same for my wife and many other people I know.  The method has proven to be true since Abraham sent his servant to find a wife for his son.

Why don’t you set up your own experiment?  I bet He will reveal Himself to you also.


----------



## pnome (Feb 9, 2010)

Madman said:


> At 2:30 one morning 16 years ago I told Him that if He was real I wanted Him to reveal Himself to me, and he did.
> He did the same for my wife and many other people I know.  The method has proven to be true since Abraham sent his servant to find a wife for his son.
> 
> Why don’t you set up your own experiment?  I bet He will reveal Himself to you also.



OK, here goes.  I will try right now to duplicate your results using your method.

God, please reveal yourself to me.
...
...

Nope.  Nothing.  You failed peer review.


----------



## Madman (Feb 9, 2010)

pnome said:


> OK, here goes.  I will try right now to duplicate your results using your method.
> 
> God, please reveal yourself to me.
> ...
> ...



There are millions who would say you that due to your presuppositons you intentionally set up the experiment incorrectly.

Try again, and remember lawyers do not review a doctor's experiment.

PS you still have not shown me a neutrino.


----------



## Madman (Feb 9, 2010)

pnome said:


> OK, here goes.  I will try right now to duplicate your results using your method.
> 
> God, please reveal yourself to me.
> ...
> ...



So my testimony is false?


----------



## pnome (Feb 9, 2010)

Madman said:


> So my testimony is false?



Your testimony is not repeatable.   And thus, not very scientific.


----------



## Madman (Feb 9, 2010)

pnome said:


> Your testimony is not repeatable.   And thus, not very scientific.



You are speaking as a lawyer.


----------



## pnome (Feb 9, 2010)

Madman said:


> There are millions who would say you that due to your presuppositons you intentionally set up the experiment incorrectly.
> 
> Try again, and remember lawyers do not review a doctor's experiment.




You need to provide more detail on how, exactly, I should set up my experiment so that I can reproduce your results.




> PS you still have not shown me a neutrino.



I suppose you think this is terribly clever of you.  I cannot show you a neutrino.  I can show you it's effects on other particles in such a way that you can reproduce the results.

At any rate.  I, at least, am willing to accept the idea that neutrinos do not exist.  How about you?  Are you willing to accept that you might be wrong?


----------



## pnome (Feb 9, 2010)

Madman said:


> You are speaking as a lawyer.



You're trying to compare your religious faith in the supernatural with hard science.


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 9, 2010)

pnome said:


> OK, here goes.  I will try right now to duplicate your results using your method.
> 
> God, please reveal yourself to me.
> ...
> ...



You need to have patience.


----------



## Madman (Feb 9, 2010)

pnome said:


> You need to provide more detail on how, exactly, I should set up my experiment so that I can reproduce your results.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




And I can show you the effect of Jesus Christ on the lives of people mine included.

No I am not wrong.  I set up a test, I opened the door and the Creator of the universe came in and sat down and ate with me.

Set up a Genuine test.  The promise is "Seek and you shall find".

Are you willing to admit that I might be right?


----------



## pnome (Feb 9, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> You need to have patience.




Madman did not specify a delay in result verification.


----------



## pnome (Feb 9, 2010)

Madman said:


> And I can show you the effect of Jesus Christ on the lives of people mine included.
> 
> No I am not wrong.  I set up a test, I opened the door and the Creator of the universe came in and sat down and ate with me.
> 
> ...



I can show you the effect of the Prophet Mohamed on the lives of people.  Will you convert to Islam if I do? 

Set up a genuine test.  Ask the Prophet to reveal himself to you and you will know his true divinity!


----------



## Madman (Feb 9, 2010)

pnome said:


> I can show you the effect of the Prophet Mohamed on the lives of people.  Will you convert to Islam if I do?
> 
> Set up a genuine test.  Ask the Prophet to reveal himself to you and you will know his true divinity!



Mohamed did not profess to be God.  He is dead and can reveal nothing.


----------



## Roberson (Feb 9, 2010)

Capt Quirk said:


> 1) The Inquisitions
> 2) The American Indians
> 3) The South American Natives
> 
> Those are just off the top of my head.


 The inquisition was NOT the work of true Christians. You would be hard pressed to find any Pastor, Priest, etc, who would agree with the inquisitions. Besides, that was eons ago, muslims have had the same agenda since its inception, to convert or kill. And about the Indians, what about the thousands of innocent men, women and children THEY slaughtered and did horrible things to? What about the South American Indians who would cut the heads off of missionaries , or another tribe , for that matter, and display it as a trophy? We need to look at all sides here.


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 9, 2010)

pnome said:


> Madman did not specify a delay in result verification.



Did he have to? Oh..and I found it interesting that you capitalized "God."  or....was that done out of forum etiquette?


I will say...you should be careful what you ask for...you might just get it


----------



## Roberson (Feb 9, 2010)

pnome said:


> I can show you the effect of the Prophet Mohamed on the lives of people.  Will you convert to Islam if I do?
> 
> Set up a genuine test.  Ask the Prophet to reveal himself to you and you will know his true divinity!


I can show you the effect of mohamed on people, also. Just watch the evening news.........................


----------



## Madman (Feb 9, 2010)

pnome said:


> I suppose you think this is terribly clever of you.




Pnome,

I am not clever and as Peter wrote, I do not "follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty".

But I will quote 1 John 1.   1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things we write to you that your joy may be full.

All I can do is testify that one day your joy may be complete.
Going to be gone for a few days see ya'll when I get back.

Madman

Go on your way into the world in peace….
Be of good courage; Hold fast that which is good;
Render no man evil for evil; Strengthen the faint hearted;
Support the weak; Help and cheer the sick; Honor all men; 
Love and serve the Lord;
And the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of 
God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with us 
all evermore.


----------



## Roberson (Feb 9, 2010)

Madman said:


> Pnome,
> 
> I am not clever and as Peter wrote, I do not "follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty".
> 
> ...



Amen.


----------



## gtparts (Feb 9, 2010)

pnome said:


> I can show you the effect of the Prophet Mohamed on the lives of people.  Will you convert to Islam if I do?
> 
> Set up a genuine test.  Ask the Prophet to reveal himself to you and you will know his true divinity!



Better check your facts on the Muslim faith...... the prophet is not divine.

It might be worth getting some other things on the table.

1. Humans can NOT have a personal relationship with Allah.

2. Regardless of how well one follows Muslim law, Allah has no problem with sending his worshipers to the Muslim "hot spot". The final decision is Allah's and he is not bound to keep any of his promises. His sovereignty is his penultimate characteristic and he is totally capricious. Your chances in the final analysis are no better than a coin toss. Infidels, of course, don't get a coin flip!

3. Allah is not interested in redeeming anyone. He is not characterized by love and compassion.

So, you see, Allah is less than a second rate god. An objective appraisal of his character portrayed in the Koran and other Muslim religious writings does not begin to present a god remotely comparable to Jehovah.

In truth, an objective side-by-side appraisal reveals that the God of Abraham is far and away superior to all other deities claimed by men.


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## Roberson (Feb 9, 2010)

gtparts said:


> Better check your facts on the Muslim faith...... the prophet is not divine.
> 
> It might be worth getting some other things on the table.
> 
> ...




Well said, sir.


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 9, 2010)

pnome said:


> Your testimony is not repeatable.   And thus, not very scientific.



i guess the universe coming from nothing is scientific?
or maybe that our ancestors were amoebas...?
yep, thats scientific alright...


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## repoman34 (Feb 9, 2010)




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## pnome (Feb 9, 2010)

Madman said:


> Mohamed did not profess to be God.  He is dead and can reveal nothing.



Whatever.  I don't know anything about Islam.  

Let me rephrase:

I can show you the effect of the *insert popular deity* on the lives of people.   Will you convert to *insert religion* if I do? 

Do you get my point?


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## pnome (Feb 9, 2010)

Gatorcountry said:


> The inquisition was NOT the work of *true* Christians.



I guarantee you, the people who ran the inquisition read the same bible you have.   

Some extra reading for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman


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## pnome (Feb 9, 2010)

repoman34 said:


>



Yeah I know.  But I guess there are still a few new faces in the crowd watching the show.


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## pnome (Feb 9, 2010)

gtparts said:


> Better check your facts on the Muslim faith......



See post 107.


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## pnome (Feb 9, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> i guess the universe coming from nothing is scientific?



I would say that science has not answered that question, nor do I think it ever possibly can.




> or maybe that our ancestors were amoebas...?
> yep, thats scientific alright...



As a matter of fact, it is.


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## Roberson (Feb 9, 2010)

pnome said:


> I guarantee you, the people who ran the inquisition read the same bible you have.
> 
> Some extra reading for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman



Yes, of course, but they knew not what it meant. they were crazed by RELIGION.


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## Roberson (Feb 9, 2010)

pnome said:


> I guarantee you, the people who ran the inquisition read the same bible you have.
> 
> Some extra reading for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman



I am a true Scotsman of the great Clan Donnacaidh, yet I abhor haggis...........


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## pnome (Feb 9, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> I found it interesting that you capitalized "God."



I was trying to be specific.


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## rjcruiser (Feb 9, 2010)

repoman34 said:


>



post turtle.  rather than just post pics of things, why don't you add something productive



pnome said:


> Yeah I know.  But I guess there are still a few new faces in the crowd watching the show.



Funny...takes two to tango



pnome said:


> I was trying to be specific.



Well...glad to see that you know of one true God  You might not know it, but you are slowly turning from the dark side


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 9, 2010)

pnome said:


> I would say that science has not answered that question, nor do I think it ever possibly can.



you are correct, it cant and wont because the folks who are leading the science revolution dont believe in God (for the most part).  because they are going to schools (teaching in schools) that teach the Bible is an impossible lie...  what a shame because i think science would be awesome in a biblical perspective...

the schools/colleges are turning kids into little atheists... satan is smart...  fool the schools and fool the kids... anyway...  thats another topic.


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## crackerdave (Feb 10, 2010)

pnome said:


> Yeah I know.  But I guess there are still a few new faces in the crowd watching the show.  [/QUOTE
> Precisely why many dead horses are flogged without mercy here!


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## gtparts (Feb 10, 2010)

pnome said:


> Yeah I know.  But I guess there are still a few new faces in the crowd watching the show.





crackerdave said:


> Precisely why many dead horses are flogged without mercy here!



It don't bother the horse none, and while some beaters just need the exercise, the remaining few have to have an outlet for their frustration.

Here's your sign!  .  .  .


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## crackerdave (Feb 10, 2010)

gtparts said:


> It don't bother the horse none, and while some beaters just need the exercise, the remaining few have to have an outlet for their frustration.
> 
> Here's your sign!  .  .  .



No,it don't bother the horse.It does,however interrupt the feasting of the flies and the fowls of the air!

As for my sign,sir: It's _my_ thread,and after three pages of mostly dead-horse beatin', if I wanna be I can!


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## crackerdave (Feb 16, 2010)

Wow - I kilt another of my own threads! _Stunned it,_ anyway.


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## Diogenes (Feb 18, 2010)

My Goodness.  Not a problem, Dave – I’m pretty good at stirring the pot . . .  

Gtparts states: “ Better check your facts on the Muslim faith...... the prophet is not divine.”   Um?  Be very careful here.  You bandy the word ‘divine’ as though you know what it means, and use it in the pejorative sense to condemn an entire religion by only your own use of the word.  Jesus never said he was ‘Divine’ either.  You folks decided that for him, later on.   

”It might be worth getting some other things on the table.”   Indeed.

”1. Humans can NOT have a personal relationship with Allah.”   I agree.  Nor can they have a personal relationship with Zeus, Thor, Buddha, Yaweh, Yama, Medea, Jehovah, Elvis Presley, or JFK.  So what is the point?  Do you claim to have a personal relationship with an invisible being or a dead guy?  Does your doctor know about this?

”2. Regardless of how well one follows Muslim law, Allah has no problem with sending his worshipers to the Muslim "hot spot". The final decision is Allah's and he is not bound to keep any of his promises. His sovereignty is his penultimate characteristic and he is totally capricious. Your chances in the final analysis are no better than a coin toss. Infidels, of course, don't get a coin flip!”  Wow . . . that sounds strangely familiar . . . Your God, of course, is completely different, and sends no one to the Hot Spot by only his own decision, and has never been ‘capricious.’  That whole bit about repenting of his Creation and destroying it was only a joke, probably.  And non-believers in your God are not actually ‘infidels,’ since your God keeps his promises, and allows all of mankind into his Heaven, because he has already redeemed their sins by impregnating a human female and then killing his offspring.  Right?  And your God had no interest in his sovereignty, and only repeated about three hundred times in your Book that He was the one true God, that thou shalt have no other Gods before him, that He was a jealous God who demanded worship of Him alone and went about smiting everyone who sassed him?  Yeah, that sounds very unlike this ‘Allah’ fella . . .     


”3. Allah is not interested in redeeming anyone. He is not characterized by love and compassion.”  Right.  So you have a complete character sketch of your own God at hand there, and are willing to speak for him, as his appointed representative?  Cool.  Can you ask him about the love and compassion part of wiping out entire cities out of vindictiveness, wiping out his entire creation but for a few anointed ones in that Flood y’all go on about, condemning those who do not agree with the approved version to flames for eternity, and simpler things like wiping out tens of thousands in Haiti just a few weeks ago?  I’d be interested in the answer.  Probably he killed all those folks out of love and compassion, but I’d like to hear Him say so Himself . . . 

”So, you see, Allah is less than a second rate god. An objective appraisal of his character portrayed in the Koran and other Muslim religious writings does not begin to present a god remotely comparable to Jehovah.”  Wow.  Notwithstanding the fact that the ‘Koran’ runs largely parallel to the OT in most ways, and is in fact derived directly, the God of YOUR OT is way superior to the other guys.  But wait a minute – can there be a ‘second-rate’ God?  I thought there was only One, in your view.  No – you are right – even your own God acknowledged the existence of other Gods – it is in your Book – that whole bit about how thou shalt have no other Gods before Me . . . How could I forget?  But this is sort of disturbing.  Was there some sort of Godly talent competition, like on American Idol, where an objective panel of talent scouts gives Zeus the thumbs down and Jehovah the thumbs up?      

”In truth, an objective side-by-side appraisal reveals that the God of Abraham is far and away superior to all other deities claimed by men.”  Whew! Thank goodness THAT is settled once and for all.  Having all of those other pesky Gods and doctrines and belief systems lingering about must have been quite an annoyance, what with your team being clearly the best team, even though your cheerleaders could use a bit of make-up . . .   

Sir, my hat is off to you – your deeply researched and well thought out and clearly insightful analysis of the Islamic faith is without parallel . . . 

Mook.


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## crackerdave (Feb 18, 2010)

Diogenes said:


> My Goodness.  Not a problem, Dave – I’m pretty good at stirring the pot . . .
> 
> Gtparts states: “ Better check your facts on the Muslim faith...... the prophet is not divine.”   Um?  Be very careful here.  You bandy the word ‘divine’ as though you know what it means, and use it in the pejorative sense to condemn an entire religion by only your own use of the word.  Jesus never said he was ‘Divine’ either.  You folks decided that for him, later on.
> 
> ...



Yessir - you and I are champion stirrers of the proverbial pot!

Jesus didn't call Himself divine -you're right,there.He did,however, say "I and the Father are one" and "If you have seen me,you have seen the Father." Close enough for me.He was God in the flesh,sent to give us THE example of how to treat our fellow man and to make THE sacrifice for sin,for all,for all time.Simple.So simple,in fact,that even a crackah was able to grasp it!


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## Madman (Feb 18, 2010)

crackerdave said:


> Yessir - you and I are champion stirrers of the proverbial pot!
> 
> Jesus didn't call Himself divine -you're right,there.He did,however, say "I and the Father are one" and "If you have seen me,you have seen the Father." Close enough for me.He was God in the flesh,sent to give us THE example of how to treat our fellow man and to make THE sacrifice for sin,for all,for all time.Simple.So simple,in fact,that even a crackah was able to grasp it!



CD,

In so many ways Jesus did call himself divine.  Many linguists would argue that that is exactly what he was doing when he called himself the son of God.  It is by the remarks he made about himself that we know he was God incarnate.

John 5 18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.


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## crackerdave (Feb 18, 2010)

Madman said:


> CD,
> 
> In so many ways Jesus did call himself divine.  Many linguists would argue that that is exactly what he was doing when he called himself the son of God.  It is by the remarks he made about himself that we know he was God incarnate.
> 
> John 5 18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.



I do not doubt that He was/is divine.The fact is,in my Bible He does not use that word to describe himself.That was the question,as I understood it: Did Jesus call himself divine?


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## Israel (Feb 19, 2010)

crackerdave said:


> I do not doubt that He was/is divine.The fact is,in my Bible He does not use that word to describe himself.That was the question,as I understood it: Did Jesus call himself divine?



I am divine, and you are da branches? Maybe someone misunderstood?

No, I don't ever recall the precise use of the term by Jesus of himself...

And my super dooper nifty bible search program of the KJV NT only show it used 3 times...none of which were in the gospels.


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## gtparts (Feb 19, 2010)

crackerdave said:


> No,it don't bother the horse.It does,however interrupt the feasting of the flies and the fowls of the air!
> 
> As for my sign,sir: It's _my_ thread,and after three pages of mostly dead-horse beatin', if I wanna be I can!



Thanks, Dave. Got a real chuckle out of your response.

Got several loud guffaws out of dio's silliness, but I doubt he will make a living as a comedian.... sarcasm wears real thin real fast.

Have a blessed day, brother.


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 19, 2010)

Israel said:


> > I am divine, and you are da branches?
> 
> 
> Maybe someone misunderstood?
> ...



i got this, israel...      not sure if anyone else has yet...


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## Madman (Feb 19, 2010)

crackerdave said:


> I do not doubt that He was/is divine.The fact is,in my Bible He does not use that word to describe himself.That was the question,as I understood it: Did Jesus call himself divine?



3 A whip for the horse, 
      A bridle for the donkey, 
      And a rod for the fool’s back. 
       4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly, 
      Lest you also be like him. 
       5 Answer a fool according to his folly, 
      Lest he be wise in his own eyes. 
      Proverbs 25:3-5

My point exactly.  Why would a Christian answer according to an agnostics folly?  A christian should answer from their wisdom.  Christ DID call himself divine.  

John 5:18b ....but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

God is Divine
Jesus is equal to God (According to Jesus)
Therefore jesus is divine


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## Diogenes (Feb 20, 2010)

Dave states: “He did,however, say "I and the Father are one" and "If you have seen me,you have seen the Father." Close enough for me.He was God in the flesh,sent to give us THE example of how to treat our fellow man and to make THE sacrifice for sin,for all,for all time.”     

Um?  Notwithstanding the glaringly obvious problem that Jesus never wrote a word, and the problem that nobody who actually knew him could or did write, and that nobody at all has any idea what the man may or may not have actually said . . .  well, let’s gloss over those inconveniences, and ask a different question --  Do you truly believe that saying you and the Father are one makes it so?  Because if it does, the Son of God is on just about every street corner . . .

Madman, of course, a demonstrated master of logic, ratifies this thought: “God is Divine
Jesus is equal to God (According to Jesus)
Therefore jesus is divine.”

Wow.  So the lunatic on the soapbox in the park is actually divine, because according to him, he is equal to God?  Who knew it was that easy?  The Divine is all around us!  There are thousands of them! 

I like this sort of ‘logic.’  Let’s try a few more, purely for the fun of it:

God is Love.
Love is Blind.
Stevie Wonder is Blind.
Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

No?  Who the heck are you to say that Stevie Wonder isn’t God?  Can you prove it?  More fun: 

ARGUMENT FROM INCOMPREHENSIBILITY
(1) Flabble glurk zoom boink blubba snurgleschnortz ping!
(2) No one has ever refuted (1).
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM MANIFESTATIONS
(1) If you turn your head sideways and squint a little, you can see an image of a bearded face in that tortilla.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM INCOMPLETE DEVASTATION
(1) A plane crashed killing 143 passengers and crew.
(2) But one child survived with only third-degree burns.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM NONBELIEF
(1) The majority of the world's population are nonbelievers in Christianity.
(2) This is just what Satan intended.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

C’mon guys.  You’re supposed to be convincing me.  You mean to tell me that God exists because God said so?  THAT one is going to be a tough field to plow.  And even if you could demonstrate (which you cannot) that Jesus himself said that he was the living, flesh-and-blood manifestation of God, that really isn’t much to rely upon.  Every third person in line at the methadone clinic says the same thing, and everybody who says that can’t be right . . .


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## crackerdave (Feb 20, 2010)

Madman said:


> 3 A whip for the horse,
> A bridle for the donkey,
> And a rod for the fool’s back.
> 4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
> ...



But where in the Bible do you see Jesus _USE THE WORD "DIVINE"_ to describe himself? My head's gittin' sore - I'm tarred of arguin' over something so unimportant!


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## Israel (Feb 21, 2010)

Diogenes said:


> _C’mon guys.  You’re supposed to be convincing me._  You mean to tell me that God exists because God said so?  THAT one is going to be a tough field to plow.  And even if you could demonstrate (which you cannot) that Jesus himself said that he was the living, flesh-and-blood manifestation of God, that really isn’t much to rely upon.  Every third person in line at the methadone clinic says the same thing, and everybody who says that can’t be right . . .



That's really it...
Nobody is supposed to be doing anything with you...but it is convenient to use what you imagine is the command to evangelize to keep yourself at the center of attention.
It's like when I hear unbelievers complain that christians aren't being "loving enough" toward them...that's funny right there.

Believers really don't get tied up in hand wringing little knots over unbelievers...walking through the world like Dorothy

Pagans, naysayers, and dares...oh my!

Cause that's what it really has become for so many...I dare you to make me believe...and silly believers sometimes fall for it. 
(Usually because they still have something remaining of what they imagine is a useful intellect that can't bear to be challenged)

There is no "argument" for God...simply because God himself doesn't argue, or give reasons for his existence. 
Can you therefore use something God himself does not have...or give...to "prove" him?
The sooner we all learn this, the less troubled we are.
The intellect loves attention...even our own...but it is just a tool, which, if not brought through the cross, is as useless and foolish and as likely to lead us astray as any other affection.
Diogenes, you're funny at times, no doubt well educated, but seem to think the best a man can hope for in this world is a good debate.
What better place to flex what you imagine is your great intellectual prowess than here, among those you think rubes and superstitious fools?
Holding back just enough of your disdain so as not to scatter the herd and ruin your fun.
No, it's really not anyone's job here to do anything with you...nor can you make the Lord's instructions bend so that you must be the focus of anything.
I'll be very glad to be found kneeling next to you at the revelation of the Lord's glory, all I can suggest is get some practice...for what doesn't bend...breaks.


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## crackerdave (Feb 21, 2010)

Israel,thy sword is razor-sharp on both sides,and your aim is unerring.


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## thedeacon (Feb 21, 2010)

I think that we have the idea that we must go around useing spiritual verbalization as the only means of convinceing people of Godlyness. The fact is what we say, or what we hear is very often ignored.  Our actions though, are watched with eyes that very seldom wander.

I remember a poem that I heard many years ago that is very relavent.

"I had rather see a sermon than hear one anyday."

Google it, if you haven't read it, it makes sense to me.


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## Diogenes (Feb 21, 2010)

Um?  Isreal?  “That's really it... Nobody is supposed to be doing anything with you...”   Well . . . Um . . . Er . . . Actually, the title of the Thread, the way I read it, said, “Why Bother Trying to Convince Atheists There is A God?” 

But if I got that wrong, and nobody is actually trying to do any such convincing, as you imply, and all the dozens upon dozens of empassioned arguments in favor of god and condemning my non-belief are actually only figments of my ‘imagined intellect,’ well, gosh.  I’m Sorry.

And spare me the self-referential, while wallowing in denial – “No, it's really not anyone's job here to do anything with you...nor can you make the Lord's instructions bend so that you must be the focus of anything.”   

But now, since you’ve already said that nobody is trying to convince anyone of anything, let alone me, what on Earth could the ‘Lord’s instructions’  (as if there actually were any such things) have to do with it other than referring the entire topic back to you?  I realize that this is designed to instruct me that you, and you alone, are actually the focus and the sole arbiter of what is righteous, and I apologize for any attempt to steal even a moment of your well-earned spotlight, but the whole idea of ‘bending’ the ‘instructions’ of an invisible force is pretty fascinating stuff. . . 

Have you got a copy of these instruction that you can hand out, so that we can see clearly that I am excluded, and you are included, because I am ‘bending’ while you are presumably ‘straightening’?  

I’m a bit confused, and contradicting yourself about every seven sentences or so isn’t clearing things up any . . .


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## Thanatos (Feb 22, 2010)

Something in me screams hypocrisy if I were to give up on these intellectual debates. I mean...God does not give up on me, and I turn my back on him all the time.


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## Madman (Feb 23, 2010)

crackerdave said:


> My head's gittin' sore - I'm tarred of arguin' over something so unimportant!



Answering the agnostic fools according to their folly will give you a headache.

Unimportant??? 

If Jesus was not God then we might as well all be JW's.


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## gtparts (Feb 23, 2010)

Israel said:


> That's really it...
> Nobody is supposed to be doing anything with you...but it is convenient to use what you imagine is the command to evangelize to keep yourself at the center of attention.
> It's like when I hear unbelievers complain that christians aren't being "loving enough" toward them...that's funny right there.
> 
> ...



Two perspectives, so contradictory, so committed, so locked in opposition, the will of man and the will of God. Only those who are called to faith will ever understand this song for the truth it speaks. Others will only hear the words that, to them, seem to mock, so blinded are they to the truth.  Can the lost be any farther from God than when they choose not to hear...or see?

To those who are yielded, I hope your spirit is lifted.


<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/S3EdX8-heAc&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/S3EdX8-heAc&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Dio, I pray that one day this will all make sense to you, but for now , it underscores how different we are.


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## game dog (Feb 23, 2010)

gordon 2 said:


> it should be sufficient to point to the kingdom perhaps and the challenges therein: For the god thing seems percieved as not unlike a drug thing. The kingdom however cannot be denied, not less than marroco or haiti or the sir isaac newton chair at oxford: Not for the physical bodies, but for the spirit and the spirit that is their's.


what!!!!


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