# RIP Koko



## bullethead (Jun 23, 2018)

This article is touching.
How do others here in the AAA feel about Humans having intelligent conversations with Gorillas?

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/koko-famo...laid-rest-154203976--abc-news-topstories.html


----------



## ambush80 (Jun 23, 2018)

I think it's a worthwhile pursuit.  I would like to know how all animals feel.  As a hunter and fisherman this is of particular interest to me.  One of these days we will be able to map out where all of the experiences our minds are capable of producing occur.  That will lead to being able to induce those experiences.  If it's true that we share many anatomical brain structures with other animals then one day we will be able to actually experience life as a bass or an eagle.  What if we find out that being caught and released by a fisherman is traumatizing in a way that we can relate to?  What if even in a very primitive way the memory of the stress caused by fighting an angler remains?  

As a first generation hunter who came to the activity in my early twenties (having been a vegetarian for 5 years), I had to develop my own ideas about the ethics of hunting.  I've even generated some threads about the ethics of hunting, trying to gain insight. I read on the subject, _In Defense of Hunting, The Hunter's Heart, Sand County Almanac_, etc.  I listened to people who philosophize about hunting like Steve Rinella.  I listen to what neuroscientist philosophers like Sam Harris have to say about the suffering of conscious creatures.  

I wish we knew more about how and to what extent animals feel.  Being able to talk to one is an amazing development.


----------



## WaltL1 (Jun 23, 2018)

I think its pretty clear that Koko was not only capable of but indeed had thoughts that we would classify as "human".
I found this particularly interesting -


> "She was looking a little sad and worried, and she looked straight at me and held two signs," she said. "One was ‘patient’ and the second one was ‘old.’


That seems pretty "self aware" to me.
She knew more than1000 words and she just happened to pick those 2 and then passed away shortly there after?
That's more than just self aware. That's self diagnosis too.


> I wish we knew more about how and to what extent animals feel.


You might end up going back to being a vegetarian who doesn't hunt or fish


----------



## ambush80 (Jun 23, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I think its pretty clear that Koko was not only capable of but indeed had thoughts that we would classify as "human".
> I found this particularly interesting -
> 
> That seems pretty "self aware" to me.
> ...



Well, at least I'd be informed.  I'm still developing my ethics of hunting and how to regard animals in general daily.  Sam Harris wondered if raising an animal in such a way as its life were as enjoyable as it could possibly be, in a way that it could never have enjoyed in the wild, and then it was humanely slaughtered in such a way that it never knew what happened, if that might be morally good.  I think the idea is good fat to chew on.   

For the time being, I regard veganism in the same way that I regard Monastic celibacy.   It's a self imposed restriction on a natural biological function for religious reasons.  In the same way that I think it's OK to eat animals I also think it's Ok to have a full, enjoyable sex life.  I'm biologically and spiritually evolved to enjoy and crave both.


----------



## matt79brown (Jun 23, 2018)

Some religions have dietary laws and some even honor certain animals as sacred. The gorilla seems to be that animal for the AAA's. I've seen some bird dogs that where very proficient in understanding verbal commands and I can really appreciate that when I'm scarfing down bacon wrapped quail breast!


----------



## ambush80 (Jun 23, 2018)

matt79brown said:


> Some religions have dietary laws and some even honor certain animals as sacred. The gorilla seems to be that animal for the AAA's. I've seen some bird dogs that where very proficient in understanding verbal commands and I can really appreciate that when I'm scarfing down bacon wrapped quail breast!



I wondered if chimps are better at sign language than gorillas and found this interesting thing:

https://thehumanevolutionblog.com/2015/07/28/koko-washoe-and-kanzi-three-apes-with-human-vocabulary/

One of the things that I still have to sort out in regards to hunting or eating animals is how much do I value their intelligence.  That seems to be a line that most people seem to draw when pressed.  I can't see a moral reason not to eat any animal in particular but what if you were able to ask the animal first?  What is a fish doing by pulling on the line (in such a pleasurable manner to us) other than telling you it doesn't like what's happening.  They build up lactose in their muscles from the stress and their cerebral processes look similar to ours when we feel fear and pain.  I understand that they might not have the "programming power" to feel sadness like a more complex animal like Koko might, or maybe we just can't understand what they're saying.


----------



## matt79brown (Jun 23, 2018)

Well if a grizzly is eating you and your yelling ''STOP! DON'T EAT ME!'' but he continues anyway is it because he doesn't understand what your saying or does he just not care?


----------



## Cmp1 (Jun 23, 2018)

Bummer about Koko,,,, I was under the impression that they lived longer than that,,,,


----------



## welderguy (Jun 23, 2018)

bullethead said:


> This article is touching.
> How do others here in the AAA feel about Humans having intelligent conversations with Gorillas?



So.... I guess now all the "talking donkey" scoffery will cease right?


----------



## bullethead (Jun 23, 2018)

welderguy said:


> So.... I guess now all the "talking donkey" scoffery will cease right?


Run along Son, adults are trying to have a discussion.


----------



## ky55 (Jun 23, 2018)

welderguy said:


> So.... I guess now all the "talking donkey" scoffery will cease right?



No.
The donkey is an ancient superstitious myth.
It belongs with fishes, loaves, floods, whales, and she bears...
Oops, almost forgot resurrections. 

*


----------



## welderguy (Jun 23, 2018)

You "adults" should get together and decide if you want to claim animals can communicate intelligently with humans or not...then we can discuss what's myth or not.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 23, 2018)

welderguy said:


> You "adults" should get together and decide if you want to claim animals can communicate intelligently with humans or not...then we can discuss what's myth or not.


It is proven that Gorillas can not only understand spoken words (but not speak themselves) but also understand and communicate by sign language.
Since Apes and Humans are closely related we share certain body similarities that allow for certain capabilities.
The evidence is there. It cannot be disputed without someone being willfully ignorant.

On the other hand,  you want to use that as evidence donkeys can verbally speak despite none have ever doing it because they are incapable of speech due to the limitations of their throat. AND you want us to take time out of our lives to hold a conversation about it with you.
Please, find another venue to discuss your fiction.  Nickelodeon and Disney might have discussion forums as lots of talking animals are a big part of their lives. Winnie the Poo, a talking bear, has a talking donkey friend too and maybe you can find them online and bring them here to talk to us. They speak perfect English and possibly know your talking donkey, but yours probably speaks Hebrew so you will need to find a donkey that knows Hebrew and English to translate.

Take your time..


----------



## ky55 (Jun 23, 2018)

welderguy said:


> You "adults" should get together and decide if you want to claim animals can communicate intelligently with humans or not...then we can discuss what's myth or not.



Please show us some video of your donkey. 
Then we can discuss what’s myth or not. 

*


----------



## welderguy (Jun 23, 2018)

bullethead said:


> It is proven that Gorillas can not only understand spoken words (but not speak themselves) but also understand and communicate by sign language.
> Since Apes and Humans are closely related we share certain body similarities that allow for certain capabilities.
> The evidence is there. It cannot be disputed without someone being willfully ignorant.
> 
> ...



What if something happened to a certain donkey that caused it to no longer have the limitations in their throat? Do you think it could be possible then for it to speak human language?


----------



## bullethead (Jun 23, 2018)

welderguy said:


> What if something happened to a certain donkey that caused it to no longer have the limitations in their throat? Do you think it could be possible then for it to speak human language?


You are done here. Move on. Please.


----------



## matt79brown (Jun 24, 2018)

Atheist like to start a reply with ''it is proven''. Because someone with a very good education told them so. Just depends on who you choose to believe. I don't buy ''it is proven'' no more than the AAA's buy ''it is written''. It is ''proven'' Neil Armstrong walked the moon in '69. If you choose to believe it. I don't. "It is written'' that a man named Jesus from Galilee walked on water 2000 years ago. I saw neither event. However I believe the Jesus account. Can I prove either? No. But Dr. So En So knows what primates are thinking. I'm gonna run along and play. Ya'll adults have a good day!


----------



## NCHillbilly (Jun 24, 2018)

matt79brown said:


> Atheist like to start a reply with ''it is proven''. Because someone with a very good education told them so. Just depends on who you choose to believe. I don't buy ''it is proven'' no more than the AAA's buy ''it is written''. It is ''proven'' Neil Armstrong walked the moon in '69. If you choose to believe it. I don't. "It is written'' that a man named Jesus from Galilee walked on water 2000 years ago. I saw neither event. However I believe the Jesus account. Can I prove either? No. But Dr. So En So knows what primates are thinking. I'm gonna run along and play. Ya'll adults have a good day!


Sign language is a factual thing. Many folks use it to communicate. This gorilla used it to communicate, you can see her doing it, and if you know sign language, you can know exactly what she's saying. I think that is well past the point of speculation, it is something that actually happened and was well-documented.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 24, 2018)

matt79brown said:


> Atheist like to start a reply with ''it is proven''. Because someone with a very good education told them so. Just depends on who you choose to believe. I don't buy ''it is proven'' no more than the AAA's buy ''it is written''. It is ''proven'' Neil Armstrong walked the moon in '69. If you choose to believe it. I don't. "It is written'' that a man named Jesus from Galilee walked on water 2000 years ago. I saw neither event. However I believe the Jesus account. Can I prove either? No. But Dr. So En So knows what primates are thinking. I'm gonna run along and play. Ya'll adults have a good day!


In this case, regarding Koko and some other Gorillas,  it is proven that they can understand spoken words, understand sign language and reply and express their feelings, thoughts, and hold conversations in sign language.
Take 5 minutes and watch videos of Koko on youtube. It isn't somebody in a costume.


----------



## WaltL1 (Jun 24, 2018)

welderguy said:


> What if something happened to a certain donkey that caused it to no longer have the limitations in their throat? Do you think it could be possible then for it to speak human language?


Is that all there is to speaking the human language? The ability to do so?
Do children have the ability to speak before they learn human language?


----------



## WaltL1 (Jun 24, 2018)

welderguy said:


> So.... I guess now all the "talking donkey" scoffery will cease right?


I used to have a Rottweiler that would bring me his food bowl when he was hungry and drop it at my feet. He was clearly communicating to me that he was hungry.
However he never SAID "Hey get off your butt and put some darn food in my bowl".
The ability to communicate does not = the ability to speak the human language.


----------



## Israel (Jun 24, 2018)

I always been taken by the King James at this part "preach the gospel to every creature". I know the word used can have variations of that. Creation, created thing, etc.  But for a man of previous nature given to such hostility...it has had a soothing effect. Though I still swat mosquitoes with a vengeance, and do not refuse to run over a rattler...I take no joy in it, anymore. 

I don't think the death of anything was ever meant for me to be a pleasure. Except that very hostile guy. 

And no, I am not a vegetarian...and I still enjoy a good movie...like Tombstone...but I do understand Johnny Ringo...who was just being put out of his misery.

And even Doc learned there are firm limits to hypocrisy in that service.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 24, 2018)

I always figured that human speech was understood by some animals like dogs but more as sound conditioning rather than the dog processing what the words mean and understanding the words definitions.
These primates have the ability to learn languages, process what is said, think about what they want to say in return based of emotions and feelings and then convey it back in intelligent ways.
Their brains have to be wired similarly to ours which reinforces my thoughts that human abilities are really primate abilities. The human version of primates have just been able to showcase it better.


----------



## WaltL1 (Jun 24, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I always figured that human speech was understood by some animals like dogs but more as sound conditioning rather than the dog processing what the words mean and understanding the words definitions.
> These primates have the ability to learn languages, process what is said, think about what they want to say in return based of emotions and feelings and then convey it back in intelligent ways.
> Their brains have to be wired similarly to ours which reinforces my thoughts that human abilities are really primate abilities. The human version of primates have just been able to showcase it better.





> I always figured that human speech was understood by some animals like dogs but more as sound conditioning rather than the dog processing what the words mean and understanding the words definitions.


Im with you but heres what trips me up -
Isnt "sound conditioning" basically exactly what we (humans) do when it comes to oral communication?
Seems to me we have to process and recognize the "sound" of the word before we process what the word means?
Not sure where Im going with that...…….. but its somewhere


----------



## bullethead (Jun 24, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Im with you but heres what trips me up -
> Isnt "sound conditioning" basically exactly what we (humans) do when it comes to oral communication?
> Seems to me we have to process and recognize the "sound" of the word before we process what the word means?
> Not sure where Im going with that...…….. but its somewhere


Yes absolutely, sound conditioning IS how we learn to speak and follow.
But
We then take it to levels where we can assimilate those words with our feelings and express our feeling using those words (sounds).

Like the other Gorilla in the article. He used sign language to speak his feelings and then went and got blankets to make the dead gorilla a bed. He expressed sorrow and a willingness to comfort the other gorilla.

Im a sure a dog misses someone when they die but is unable to express it beyond a down in the dumps feeling. It cannot use sign language to speak it feelings.
It does not seem that they can learn to express whatever they feel into anything beyond rudimentary actions.

"Want to go out"?
Yeah they learn to run to the door.
"Wanna go for a walk"
Some grab their leash. 

Ask Koko if she wanted to go for a walk and she could say, "No thank you, I want to watch the end of this movie and pet my kitten"


----------



## JustUs4All (Jun 24, 2018)

I believe that animals of the same species communicate with one another in various ways and that most communication is non verbal, even among humans.  Inter species communication is much more difficult, but I believe that it has been adequately proven to exist at a pretty high level.


----------



## WaltL1 (Jun 24, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Yes absolutely, sound conditioning IS how we learn to speak and follow.
> But
> We then take it to levels where we can assimilate those words with our feelings and express our feeling using those words (sounds).
> 
> ...


Agreed.


> "No thank you,I want to watch the end of this movie and pet my kitten"


Im almost positive Ive said those exact words myself ^ 
Its really interesting to think about though. We could be waaaaaaaaay underestimating the lower level animals mental capacity but its simply due to lack of being able to communicate. KoKo made it "easy".


----------



## WaltL1 (Jun 24, 2018)

Cmp1 said:


> Bummer about Koko,,,, I was under the impression that they lived longer than that,,,,


It looks like they can but this heart condition sounds pretty common so preventing a lot of them from living longer.


> "Many gorillas have a heart condition, cardiomyopathy, and she had it, but it was apparently a mild case and was being treated for that.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 24, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Im almost positive Ive said those exact words myself ^
> Its really interesting to think about though. We could be waaaaaaaaay underestimating the lower level animals mental capacity but its simply due to lack of being able to communicate. KoKo made it "easy".


No doubt about the lower level animals capacity. It may not be a problem with them more than it is a problem with us to understand them.

We have all witnessed the dog examples above. They learn our word(sounds) and react accordinly in the "right" way like going to the door.
Conversely 
We as humans must have heard dog barks a million times. I don't know one bark from the other. Sure, I can tell if a dog runs to the window while barking that it sees something. I know if there is a knock at the door and the dog barks it is alerted to the sound and where it is coming from. But with all our supposed smarts, a dog can stand in the middle of a room while looking directly at us and bark once or fifty times and ill be darned if I know one bark from the other, what the dog is "saying" or if two quick barks mean any more than three barks with longer pauses in between.
Im sure hunters get tuned into their hounds because the hounds have different bawls,barks and sounds when trailing or something is treed.
But I've never known the best dog guy to listen to their hounds and tell me Big Red says they are chasing a snowhoe hare, the hare is crafty as he is sticking to the swamp but me and Spike are gonna head him off at the big willow while Butch and Abby keep on his trail.


----------



## WaltL1 (Jun 24, 2018)

bullethead said:


> No doubt about the lower level animals capacity. It may not be a problem with them more than it is a problem with us to understand them.
> 
> We have all witnessed the dog examples above. They learn our word(sounds) and react accordinly in the "right" way like going to the door.
> Conversely
> ...


He's saying "these lower level humans are impossible to teach how to speak doginease. I wish they were smart like KoKo".


----------



## bullethead (Jun 24, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> He's saying "these lower level humans are impossible to teach how to speak doginease. I wish they were smart like KoKo".


Lololol , Darn straight Walt!


----------



## red neck richie (Jun 24, 2018)

Very intelligent animal. They can be trained to do a lot of things(tricks). Not unlike a visit to sea world or Pavlov's dog for that matter. I laugh at those that compare them to humans though. They are smart creatures but are totally a slave to instinct.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 24, 2018)

red neck richie said:


> Very intelligent animal. They can be trained to do a lot of things(tricks). Not unlike a visit to sea world or Pavlov's dog for that matter. I laugh at those that compare them to humans though. They are smart creatures but are totally a slave to instinct.


So when the gorilla tells the woman that it senses its own mortality, shares its thoughts, says it loves a cat and tens of thousands of intelligent conversations with thousands of different people for over 40 years it is a trick?
10/4 Richie.


----------



## red neck richie (Jun 24, 2018)

bullethead said:


> So when the gorilla tells the woman that it senses its own mortality, shares its thoughts, says it loves a cat and tens of thousands of intelligent conversations with thousands of different people for over 40 years it is a trick?
> 10/4 Richie.


You crack me up BH. You will believe what a gorilla and its trainer is telling you but you dont believe what I have told you.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 24, 2018)

red neck richie said:


> You crack me up BH. You will believe what a gorilla and its trainer is telling you but you dont believe what I have told you.


I believe what I've seen regarding that particular Gorilla over the years.
You can go on youtube and literally see for yourself.

You are quite the skeptic though, lololol.


----------



## red neck richie (Jun 24, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I believe what I've seen regarding that particular Gorilla over the years.
> You can go on youtube and literally see for yourself.
> 
> You are quite the skeptic though, lololol.


I take it that's why you made the post? One Gorilla over millions of believers. The numbers are not in your favor. And most humans are way more intelligent. Plus you know everything on YouTube (the internet) is true. Maybe you should put as much time on the research as you do disproving Christianity?


----------



## bullethead (Jun 24, 2018)

red neck richie said:


> I take it that's why you made the post? One Gorilla over millions of believers. The numbers are not in your favor. And most humans are way more intelligent.


The claim was made that there was a Gorilla that could understand human speech, learn to understand sign language and speak using sign language. The claims go so far as to say that the gorilla even can express it thoughts and feelings through sign language and not just simple yes or no replies. The claims even state that the gorilla talks using multiple words that fit the conversation AND even uses complete sentences at times.

I said no way. Show me. I want to see proof. Evidence. It better be overwhelming. 

Then I saw it on TV news and then the computer. It watched multiple shows that span over 40 years and saw that gorilla do exactly what they said it does.

On the other hand while I did not talk directly to millions of believers, all the believers that I have talked to who make claims and assertions, I have asked for them to provide me proof and evidence.
I figure surely their god is more real than a gorilla that uses sign language. Still, nothing from a single one of them.

You should worship the gorilla.


----------



## red neck richie (Jun 24, 2018)

bullethead said:


> The claim was made that there was a Gorilla that could understand human speech, learn to understand sign language and speak using sign language. The claims go so far as to say that the gorilla even can express it thoughts and feelings through sign language and not just simple yes or no replies. The claims even state that the gorilla talks using multiple words that fit the conversation AND even uses complete sentences at times.
> 
> I said no way. Show me. I want to see proof. Evidence. It better be overwhelming.
> 
> ...


No thanks. Maybe you should you seem to be impressed.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 24, 2018)

red neck richie said:


> No thanks. Maybe you should you seem to be impressed.


Is THAT all you got?
I can go online and witness an intelligent talking Gorilla and all I get from you is that??? You can't top a gorilla????
But yes,
I am impressed. That gorilla seemed to have a lot more genuine sense than a couple people I converse with, but I do not let my emotions decide who or what to worship 
I do not need or feel the need to worship anything. 
It does show that I am willing to recognize evidence and proof and concede to the validity of it. I am capable of altering my opinion based off new verifiable evidence.


----------



## JustUs4All (Jun 24, 2018)

OK boys, let's keep it impersonal, else it is time to take it to private conversation.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 24, 2018)

JustUs4All said:


> OK boys, let's keep it impersonal, else it is time to take it to private conversation.


----------



## red neck richie (Jun 24, 2018)

JustUs4All said:


> OK boys, let's keep it impersonal, else it is time to take it to private conversation.


Yes sir. Maybe BH should pm the gorilla?


----------



## bullethead (Jun 24, 2018)

red neck richie said:


> Yes sir. Maybe BH should pm the gorilla?


(IT's Dead)


----------



## red neck richie (Jun 24, 2018)

bullethead said:


> (IT's Dead)


Pm the trainer then. I'm sure she can provide the info you are looking for.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 24, 2018)

red neck richie said:


> Pm the trainer then. I'm sure she can provide the info you are looking for.


Im not looking for info about the gorilla.  I have all I need.
Thank you for the convo.


----------



## red neck richie (Jun 24, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Im not looking for info about the gorilla.  I have all I need.
> Thank you for the convo.


Your very welcome.


----------

