# Drahthaar



## birddog1 (Apr 20, 2009)

Female 2 years old holds point,force broke to retrieve good dog I raised her from a pup.The only reason for selling is I work 6 days a week and do not have time to hunt her.800.00 OBO Trade for guns.Kevin 678-776-7770


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## GSPoindexter (Apr 21, 2009)

Looks like a GSP, got papers?


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## secondseason (Apr 21, 2009)

Beautiful dog...I had never heard of them...I looked it up.


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## birddog1 (Apr 21, 2009)

Yes I have papers and she scored a 73 on her puppy natural ability test and that is a very good score.She will be back in heat the first of august.She has never been breed.


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## Luke0927 (Apr 21, 2009)

Nice dog I want a Drathaar but got a 1 month old baby and don't have time for another dog....so this is a true DD from german lines not a GWP?

I'll tell a few people about it i know a couple guys looking for dogs, looks like he doesn't have the beard, does he?

also i see your in dawsonville i live right on the dawson/forsyth line and when to Dawson county high, so your right by me will you have any dogs left?


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## GSPoindexter (Apr 22, 2009)

Did a 73 get you a prize? Mine got a 96 and got a Prize 3. My lack of water work screwed him out of a perfect 112.


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## birddog1 (Apr 22, 2009)

This is  a true Drahthar ,she does not have the beard (I wish she did).The score 73 did not get a prize but I think the highest score you could get was a 85?This is the only dog I have for sale.Thanks.


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## Luke0927 (Apr 22, 2009)

birddog1 said:


> This is  a true Drahthar ,she does not have the beard (I wish she did).The score 73 did not get a prize but I think the highest score you could get was a 85?This is the only dog I have for sale.Thanks.



No not asking if the is the only dog for sale but if you get rid of this dog do you have any more bird dogs...since your so close maybe we could run dogs some time.......


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## redneck_billcollector (Apr 22, 2009)

What natural ability test are you talking about?, you can get up to 112 for a NA test with NAVHDA. My puppy got a 101 NA score for a prize II.


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## zzweims (Apr 23, 2009)

I'm assuming that this pup ran in the VJP, in which case a score of 73 is very good.  The VJP is similar to the navhda NA test (I'd have to look up the differences).  It is a part of the German testing system, open to FCI registered versatiles of German anscestry.


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## redneck_billcollector (Apr 23, 2009)

Leave it to you to know about all that German stuff ZZ, I have read about those tests but don't know a thing about how they are scored.  Actually read about them in conjunction with reading about Drahthaars and why they aint the same as the American versions.


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## slightly grayling (Apr 23, 2009)

Nice looking pup!  The German Wirehair Pointer and a Drathaar are one in the same.  I have one and it has been great with my kids, but they are older (6 and 9). 





Luke0927 said:


> Nice dog I want a Drathaar but got a 1 month old baby and don't have time for another dog....so this is a true DD from german lines not a GWP?
> 
> I'll tell a few people about it i know a couple guys looking for dogs, looks like he doesn't have the beard, does he?
> 
> also i see your in dawsonville i live right on the dawson/forsyth line and when to Dawson county high, so your right by me will you have any dogs left?


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## redneck_billcollector (Apr 23, 2009)

Americans think they are the same, but I'll be durn if the Germans feel that way Same with the GSP and its German variant.  Course I have a weim and have seen german weims, they really aint the same dog (american ones and german ones)  heck, the AKC standards are really not the same as what european breeders breed for.  And they are serious, they don't do good on the test, they get the verbotten tatto in their ear and you can not breed them. I have always hated when the AKC gets involved with any hunting dog, and heaven forbid if they become popular show dogs and dogs for pets......they will ruin a dog breed.

I have often thought of creating my own breed of bird dog and fighting tooth and nail with the AKC to keep them from being a recognised breed.....  call it the redneck shorthaired pointer. Just look at the irish setter, the golden retriever, the cocker spaniel, etc..., etc... Heck my breed standards would be they have to find birds in a 30 mph wind with it being 85 degrees f.  or else they couldn't be bred.......
http://www.vdd-gna.org/history.php                      That points out how the germans say the wirehaired pointers and dahthaars are not the same breed.....it appears because of breed standards.


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## birddog1 (Apr 23, 2009)

Hey guys the test was the VJP,IF I sell her I will not have another birddog but a friend of mine has a setter I might could use.


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## redneck_billcollector (Apr 23, 2009)

Hmmm, weimaraner x drahthaar cross, with pups bred to pups from an ep x pitbull x setter cross....the starting of the redneck shorthaired pointer breed.   (gotta throw a lil bit of pitbull in there to....well, you know, give him the redneck traits >> moi <<<  has a pitbull)  All kidding aside, if you still have her in a couple of weeks, I might consider her, has to be at least then cause all my extra cash for the next couple of weeks is tied up.


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## Jim P (Apr 23, 2009)

Jay if you start your breed it would have a beard-short legs-wide chest and no tail, hmmm that thing would be unstoppable.


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## redneck_billcollector (Apr 23, 2009)

Well, I was thinking of throwing some treeing walker in at some point, just to get the pointer  to bay when on point,  that way I won't need any fancy electronics to let me know they found some birds.  You know, put a lil bit of some type of eskimo dog in the breed, heck, I could get the dog to carry all my gear in the field too.  Just think, a dog that can point birds, let you know when they find them, and have you a cold drink on their back when they retrieve the bird......


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## Luke0927 (Apr 24, 2009)

slightly grayling said:


> Nice looking pup!  The German Wirehair Pointer and a Drathaar are one in the same.  I have one and it has been great with my kids, but they are older (6 and 9).




Yes they are the same in sense just like a DK and GSP and a DD and GWP...the but a true DD is bred to strict standards where the dogs must pass ability and conformation before they can be bred...the VDD has very strict rules for breedings to insure the lines stay true being a versitle dog unlike the AKC and GWPCA which only care that the dogs are pure breed....So a AKC registered GWP isn't DD.


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## redneck_billcollector (Apr 24, 2009)

Amen to that Luke, I edited in a link to the Drahthaar Club and they say they are different breeds.  If you see any hunting breeds from Germany vs. their American  counterparts you will notice many slight differences.  The german breeds tend to be bred for traits that make them better field dogs than the american counterpart.  Look at the weimaraner, the german bred ones aren't as big as the american ones (at least the few german ones I have ever seen), and from what I understand the german ones are bred for double coats, which are better for water and brush work.  Every german hunting breed I have ever read about requires extensive hunting trait tests before they are given the green light to breed and they are heavily regulated by the breeds governing body and apparently the government, I guess similar to copy rights infringement.  They are primarily breed for hunting ability and physical traits that go hand in hand with hunting.  Whereas once the AKC gets involved with a hunting breed, they are bred primarily for physical traits.  If it is a hunting breed, there will be a sentence in the breed's outline that says something like "They should be a fine companion in the field" and that is it.  Then there is detail about every physical characteristic down to the exact number of inches their eyes should be spaced (at least it appears that way).  The attempts to perfect the standards by AKC adherents has led to many problems with the breeds that become popular and has robbed many breeds that were once grand hunting dogs of any desire or ability to hunt.  The Irish Setter is a very fine example, for those of yall that don't know, it was an irish setter that won the first nationals field trial ever held, way back when.  During the 60's and 70's they became a fashionable pet and show dog and I had the oppurtunity to be around many prize (AKC that is) irish setter show dogs.  I did not see the first one that showed ANY desire to hunt, and even if they did, the standard that they had been breed to (feathering and size) would have made them 100% impractical as field dogs.  They also sacraficed mental traits, every one was like some coked up 5 year old, I mean they were hyper beyond belief (which isn't bad for hunting) but I doubt they could have scented a rare ribeye steak at 5 paces.  Beware of the little old ladies in tennis shoe crowd dog breeders, they are death to any hunting breed.  Just my two cents worth, sorry if I offended anyone.


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## Twenty five ought six (Apr 24, 2009)

> Look at the weimaraner, the german bred ones aren't as big as the american ones (at least the few german ones I have ever seen), and from what I understand the german ones are bred for double coats, which are better for water and brush work.



Funny, I think the German weims are bigger on the average.  American weims are being bred down in size, especially the Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----(females).  In fact, the AKC standard was revised several years ago to reduce the size of the American weimaraner.  Given that they were originally bred to course and bay elk and bear, they weren't a small dog.  Also, Amercian style field trials, for which the Weimaraner was never intended, have resulted in a smaller dog that physically no way resembles a German weim.

As far as the double coat, there are American lines that have the double coat.  You tend to see it more in mid-western breeders.  My first weim had a good double coat, and in the winter, he'd be as oily and water resistant as a good slicker.  He'd bust through briers that stopped many a local pointer. Granted the trend, especially locally, seems to be to breed only for the shine.

Sorry to go off on a tangent.  I agree 100% that a sporting dog should have to show some minimum breed characteristics.  You mention the Irish Setter, what about the Cocker Spaniel, which AKC lists as a sporting breed.

I was reading an article recently about a national breed club that fought the AKC for years to keep the breed from being listed just for the reasons you mention.  The club was doing a good job of maintaining the breed.  AKC listed it anyway.  Too bad my CRS kicked in and I can't remember which breed it was.


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## maker4life (Apr 24, 2009)

Breed standards are set by the individual clubs such as the GSPCA . The AKC recognizes the standards these clubs set for their dogs .


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## zzweims (Apr 24, 2009)

redneck_billcollector said:


> Hmmm, weimaraner x drahthaar cross,



Sorry to disappoint you Jay, but the Czechs beat you to it.  Meet the Slovak Rough Haired Pointer :







As for your 85* 30mph wind hunter--that's already been created too.  It's called the English Pointer


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## zzweims (Apr 24, 2009)

As for the size difference in German and American weims, both RBC and 25 are correct.  The overwhelming majority of weims in this country were bred for the show ring and pet market and are considerably taller than the Germans (and mostly out of standard).  The minority American field bred weims, on the other hand, are somewhat smaller and more slightly built than the Germans.  When I was at the navhda test with Ozzie (who is out of a German dam and American field bred weim), a gentleman there had an American show/pet bred weim.  Little Oz could walk right under that dog and his back wouldn't touch it's belly!!


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## zzweims (Apr 24, 2009)

Twenty five ought six said:


> I was reading an article recently about a national breed club that fought the AKC for years to keep the breed from being listed just for the reasons you mention.  The club was doing a good job of maintaining the breed.  AKC listed it anyway.  Too bad my CRS kicked in and I can't remember which breed it was.



It might have been one of the herding breeds.  I know that folks fought to keep the border collie, Australian shepherd, and Australian cattle dog out, without success.  No doubt there were other breeds too.  (does AKC now recognize the Boykin spaniel?  I hope not)  You can't blame the AKC.  They just go by the breed clubs, which, unfortunately, are largely controlled by the blue-haired-fat ankle-show-ring- gestapo.

There is a push now, as there is every few years, for the WCA to recognize the longhaired Weimaraner.  The LH is perfectly natural and accepted in every country except ours.  Yet everytime a vote comes up, I vote to keep them out for the reasons RBC stated above.  If the dog show nazis get a hold of the LH, they'll turn it into a big, dumb, gray setter


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## redneck_billcollector (Apr 24, 2009)

Well I know that when I was a proud owner of a boykin back in the late 80's and early 90's, they were fighting inclussion with the AKC, my dog was a registered boykin (with the boykin club in S.C. their state of origin) and I would get stuff in the mail all the time about fighting inclussion.  As for weims, the few actual german imported weims I have seen were a good bit shorter than the american weims, maybe smaller was the improper term cause these german dogs were stockier and are probably a good bit heavier in wieght to the american counterparts of the same height.  Another breed caught up in the controversy is what they are calling the american red setter (which is like the irish setters that were originally brought to the US)  In recreating or developing it, I seem to remember that they went back to Ireland and got some stock (still field dogs there) to create the foundation stock here along with the few hunting irish setters that still survived in the US.  How ironic that the american red setter has a more recent infussion of true irish setter blood than the dog that has the name irish setter in this country.  Now the AKC is trying to, if they haven't already, include them in their roll call of dog breeds (which was being fought by most owners).  Maybe the problem is the way the american breed organizations are run and how the standards evolve.

In germany, in order to own a registered weimaraner you must be a licsensed hunter (easier and cheaper to get a permit to fly planes here).  I further understand that in order for one to be sold for export you had best convince them that you are a hunter and be prepared to prove it.  In order to breed them in germany, both the dam and sire must be approved to breed which involves passing a rigorous hunting test that puts any test done in america to shame.  And then, you are only given permission to breed them if you have the ability to place the pups with hunters.  I do not know all this first hand, but prior to me checking out my present dog I researched weims to the nth degree and read that info with regards to german weims (my dog's maternal grandparents are both imported german weims) . I found it interesting reading, to say the least.  Maybe it is the american breed clubs themselves then, but the one I have ever been active in fought to keep the AKC out, so while the AKC might adopt the breed club's standards, there is obviously some dispute amongst the breed clubs and the AKC and something happens along the way.  It might be because alot of folks want pure bred dogs for pets and if it isn't AKC registered then it is seen as a mutt, and a mutt is a mutt and will never bring the cash for breeders that a registered pure bred will. As nonhunting pet owners start to dominate a breeds organization, those tree hugging, disney watching left wingers get a larger say so in how the breed should be defined.  I guess the only way to keep a hunting dog breed exactly that is to require a series of hunting tests that a certain score must be achived in prior to any permissable breeding.  If the dam AND sir can't meet the hunting test standards, then the pups are not allowed to be registered and sold as pure breds.  I hate to sound draconian but with hunting breeds doing good in dog shows, and folks wanting the dog of the moment breed, that might be the only remedy to save most of the hunting breeds in the long term.  How the dickens I ever ended up with this rant I shall never know.


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## Twenty five ought six (Apr 24, 2009)

> I know that folks fought to keep the border collie,



That was it.  Interesting back story there.

Boykins are still not AKC recognized.  

On the red setter, in addition to bringing in stock from Ireland, approved outcrosses to English setters were made to get some "birdiness" back in the breed.  That's the reason a lot of "red setters" have so much white on the chest.



> The AKC recognizes the standards these clubs set for their dogs .
> Reply With Quote



That is technically correct.  The sand gets in the gears when it comes to recognizing which club is THE breed club, which is what happened with the border collie.


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## Fletch (Apr 25, 2009)

25/06......you are dead wrong on the AKC Boykin recognition.


http://www.akc.org/breeds/boykin_spaniel/index.cfm


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## redneck_billcollector (Apr 25, 2009)

Dang, that will be the start of the down fall of boykins as a good hunting dog.  They are a cute presonable dog, so all them non-hunting, tree huging, animals are little people crowd will now get involved with them.  I wonder what changed, cause I know they were fighting it for all it was worth, I guess folks started making pets out of them. I also see the society has moved from S.C. (where the originated) to Ga.


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## Fletch (Apr 25, 2009)

I am not convinced the AKC will ruin the breed. I hope the advocates and lovers of the breed will continue to be hunting folks. Let's keep our fingers crossed.


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## redneck_billcollector (Apr 25, 2009)

The only problem with that is that folks will see them in a dog show, they will want them, they will be popular, bingo...they get bred and sold as pets to non-hunting little girls in New York.   Here are some examples of once great hunting dogs that now you have to search high and low to find any that have the desire to hunt.  Golden Retrievers, Irish Setters, Cocker Spaniels, Standard Poodles, Weimaraners just to name a few.  You are starting to see GSPs that don't hunt (just check the animals for sale on the GON forum), Labs that won't hunt, and many others.  All because they become popular pets and non-hunting people obtain them and breed them so they have papers (to fetch more dollars when sold) with no attention to hunting ability. You end up with more and more registered dogs that are hunting breeds that have little instinct for it and the breeders don't even consider it when dogs are picked to breed, instead they are bred for pretty feathering (a very non-hunting trait), or size or head shape or color and before long even if the dog wants to hunt it doesn't have the instinct to hunt.


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## Twenty five ought six (Apr 26, 2009)

> 25/06......you are dead wrong on the AKC Boykin recognition.



I will almost wrong, but not dead wrong.  I see that the effective date of recognition is Jan. 2008, so I was only a year out of date, and that the breed will be admitted to the AKC stud book dec. 9, 2009.  The Boykin cannot compete in Sporting breed confirmation shows until then.

I also see this note on Boykin Spaniel Club of American home page:



> In February 2007 the AKC has approved the Boykin Spaniel to compete in the Miscellaneous Group as of Jan.1, 2008. Once a breed is advanced into the Misc. Group,* they are expected to stay in that category for 1-5 years before the AKC advances the breed into a fully recognized AKC registered breed. *



Looking at the history of AKC recognition of the Boykin reveals some interesting facts.

The original breed club, and the standard breed registry, was the Boykin Spaniel Society, in Camben, SC, the birthplace of the Boykin.  This club decided NOT to seek AKC recognition of the breed for the same reasons the border collie club decided not to.

Then in the "late nineties" (specific date not stated) a group of folks who disagreed with this decision of the breed club formed the Boykin Spaniel Breed Club and Breeders Association of America, Inc. whose goal was not to promote or advance the breed, but to get AKC recognition for the breed.  I can't find the membership numbers for this club or the number of dogs in it's (the AKC's) registry.  However, this clearly is a case of the AKC following the wishes of a minority of owners and breeders that are not the representatives of the historical breed club or the historical breed registry.  So a "breed" club that has existed somewhat less than 10 years was able to obtain AKC recognition as THE breed club.

Boykins have a very high rate of hip dysplasia (approx. 40%) and about 30% for knee problems.  The Boykin Society is attempting to address these problems by restricting registration to litters from healthy parents.

So shortly there will be two "breeds" of Boykins -- those in the original studbook, and AKC Boykins.


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## redneck_billcollector (May 4, 2009)

If I wouldn't get edited I would cuss those folks that pushed for AKC recognition.  I was confussed when I saw the club in Ga. cause when I was involved it was in SC.  I bet you it was nonhunting folks who wanted to sale the dogs and the regular nonhunting crowd only cares if they are AKC registered.  Another great dog bites the dust.


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