# Question for the Godless Reprobates (Atheist/Agnostics)...



## BassMan31 (Jun 13, 2018)

What's it like to be bound for the pits of Hades?

Kidding... of course 

Seriously, now. Apart from the obvious, what is the most off-putting thing people of faith do or say that lowers your opinion of them personally and their faith as a whole?


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## bullethead (Jun 13, 2018)

Assertions and claims that are never backed up.
Pretending to understand and speaking for an entity that they tell others is beyond comprehension.
Using scripture as evidence to back scripture.
Each thinking they are "more" christian than the next.
Over 40,000 denominations that all think the others don't quite have it right.

I'll stop for now.


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## atlashunter (Jun 13, 2018)

I don’t hold a low opinion of most Christians. Some of the finest people I’ve ever known were Christians. The religion itself is another story.


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## bullethead (Jun 13, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> I don’t hold a low opinion of most Christians. Some of the finest people I’ve ever known were Christians. The religion itself is another story.


I must say, like most people that I know, without religion to factor in it all seems to go smoothly and the vast majority are a pleasure to be around.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 13, 2018)

> Apart from the obvious,


I'm not sure what you referring to when you say "the obvious"?


> what is the most off-putting thing people of faith do or say that lowers your opinion of them personally


The same things that would I find off putting or would lower my opinion of anybody regardless of their religious beliefs or disbeliefs.


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## Spotlite (Jun 13, 2018)

BassMan31 said:


> what is the most off-putting thing people of faith do or say that lowers your opinion of them personally and their faith as a whole?


Maybe this isn't my question because I am not Godless.......
But arrogant, stuck up rude people, and those that are just plain stupid. From all walks of life.

I was at a store in March and lady rebuked me and called me son of satan because I wouldn't take her demo crap brochures. 

So add those that use religion as a tool.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 14, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Maybe this isn't my question because I am not Godless.......
> But arrogant, stuck up rude people, and those that are just plain stupid. From all walks of life.
> 
> I was at a store in March and lady rebuked me and called me son of satan because I wouldn't take her demo crap brochures.
> ...


I bet that didn't go over well with you


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## NCHillbilly (Jun 14, 2018)

I'm not godless, just not into organized religions. And I have nothing at all against most Christians, almost everybody I know or am related to is one. But one thing that annoys me is folks who have a business and very obviously tie it into religion in order to try to make more money from Christians-i.e. "Son Shine Used Cars," Fish signs and John 3:16 on billboards for carpet shops, etc. And the general attitude that they have all the answers and are superior to everyone else because they believe everything they read in a 2,000 year old book.


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## fish hawk (Jun 14, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> I'm not godless, just not into organized religions. And I have nothing at all against most Christians, almost everybody I know or am related to is one. But one thing that annoys me is folks who have a business and very obviously tie it into religion in order to try to make more money from Christians-i.e. "Son Shine Used Cars," Fish signs and John 3:16 on billboards for carpet shops, etc. And the general attitude that they have all the answers and are superior to everyone else because they believe everything they read in a 2,000 year old book.


You mean like Jesus Lawn Care Inc.?


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## WaltL1 (Jun 14, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> I'm not godless, just not into organized religions. And I have nothing at all against most Christians, almost everybody I know or am related to is one. But one thing that annoys me is folks who have a business and very obviously tie it into religion in order to try to make more money from Christians-i.e. "Son Shine Used Cars," Fish signs and John 3:16 on billboards for carpet shops, etc. And the general attitude that they have all the answers and are superior to everyone else because they believe everything they read in a 2,000 year old book.


God is big business.
I doubt the Vatican is having to check for change under the couch pillows to pay the light bill.


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## Spotlite (Jun 14, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I bet that didn't go over well with you


It shocked me because I really wasn't expecting that from a political promo. It is just one of those things that all you can do is act crazy with them. I growled with a big smile and she walked away.


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## Spotlite (Jun 14, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> folks who have a business and very obviously tie it into religion in order to try to make more money from Christians-i.e. "Son Shine Used Cars," Fish signs and John 3:16 on billboards for carpet shops, etc. And the general attitude that they have all the answers and are superior to everyone else because they believe everything they read in a 2,000 year old book.


If they very obviously tie their advertising into religion to target a crowd............I guess it works like Starbucks targeting a certain crowd..........

And seriously, just read some post on this forum.........we get blasted because "we failed or refused to research"


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## oldfella1962 (Jun 14, 2018)

fish hawk said:


> You mean like Jesus Lawn Care Inc.?



ummm......if Jesus is pronounced "hay-soos" (and it is lawn care!) it may not have anything to do with religion.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 14, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> If they very obviously tie their advertising into religion to target a crowd............I guess it works like Starbucks targeting a certain crowd..........
> 
> And seriously, just read some post on this forum.........we get blasted because "we failed or refused to research"


Yeah one hand, why shouldn't a business advertise the fact that they are Christian? As long as they follow business laws the customer can decide to go there or not.
On the other hand, I guess you would have to know "whats in the heart" of the business owner as to why he's doing it. Just because they are Christian doesn't mean they aren't out to rip you off.


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## oldfella1962 (Jun 14, 2018)

Godless Reprobates is a great rock band name!


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## MiGGeLLo (Jun 14, 2018)

oldfella1962 said:


> ummm......if Jesus is pronounced "hay-soos" (and it is lawn care!) it may not have anything to do with religion.



That's just how you pronounce Jesus in Spanish. Also Mexico is extremely religious (catholic) by and large. May have more to do with religion than you would think.


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## Spotlite (Jun 14, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Yeah one hand, why shouldn't a business advertise the fact that they are Christian? As long as they follow business laws the customer can decide to go there or not.
> On the other hand, I guess you would have to know "whats in the heart" of the business owner as to why he's doing it. Just because they are Christian doesn't mean they aren't out to rip you off.


I agree. And you are correct, as a consumer........regardless of who they are, if they have something I want to buy, I turn my feelings off and go buy it......the consumer ultimately decides who to turn their money lose to.

I agree with what NC was getting at though, some people use religion / non-religion and politics to target business and it gives a bad rap to those that doesn't.


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## Spotlite (Jun 14, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> the customer can decide to go there or not


And.........yesterday I bought my daughter Starbucks with the devils money instead  of mine........ I won $25 on a scratch off lottery ticket........my aunt calls it devils money.


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## Israel (Jun 14, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> God is big business.
> I doubt the Vatican is having to check for change under the couch pillows to pay the light bill.



I know we took a few steps together down this road before, and spoke briefly. And I am aware of what you have said...of your discovery of futility and inability to "separate" Jesus Christ from religion. And in that I understand why one would be loathe to give themselves in investigation toward what appears untangle-able and only to frustration. And soiling.
If I told you this is my labor everyday to set Christ apart from this thing I find no less persuading in myself...than outside myself...of religious "mindedness" of formulae and concoctions...would you understand?

And if I told you that it is not "I" stripping Jesus of such...but the beginning of sight of a man presented as such...naked...(the work of another)...could you believe? I do not uphold Jesus as "set apart" (though I testify to it)...this is a thing already done.

Men are "allowed" to see things. How and what they see is never really in their hands though nothing _appears_ more strongly evident of that in this world. "I will put _my attention._..where I care to".

How come I cannot lose this? A young man desiring to be, in as much sincerity as known to him, of service. But told he must be disqualified from that service on the basis of his appearance (O! what wrong inferences and presumption is found there!) because some have found "the offerings are off" due to his (and their) hippy appearance. 

Tripping at their reasoning this youth said "you mean for looking too much like Him?"...pointing to the crucifix adorning the "sanctuary".
Keep down that road...if you can...keep down that road and don't let another steal from you _what you may have seemed_ to have given up in some small impudence.

Christ is "separate" from religion...and its goals. Religion is devoted to one thing...the perpetuation of itself _by means_. And rightly Jesus declared of those who would cross land and sea to make disciples two fold children of he11 than themselves.

But...you are not that. Christ...is not that. But yes, He is willing to suffer.
When a man denies himself the pleasures of impudence...even in the smallest of steps...One is willing, no, waiting...to come into sight. Impudence gets answered by impudence, but when it is swallowed...rather than given vent, a man may be delivered from the clutches of religion to the seeing of Christ. Men's vanity merits scorn, but something else _must_ appear to its undoing.

Jesus knew...he would appear accursed. Men who _thought they knew_...what they were looking at. But you are being held in the eye of One who finds you _all acceptable_.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 14, 2018)

Israel said:


> I know we took a few steps together down this road before, and spoke briefly. And I am aware of what you have said...of your discovery of futility and inability to "separate" Jesus Christ from religion. And in that I understand why one would be loathe to give themselves in investigation toward what appears untangle-able and only to frustration. And soiling.
> If I told you this is my labor everyday to set Christ apart from this thing I find no less persuading in myself...than outside myself...of religious "mindedness" of formulae and concoctions...would you understand?
> 
> And if I told you that it is not "I" stripping Jesus of such...but the beginning of sight of a man presented as such...naked...(the work of another)...could you believe? I do not uphold Jesus as "set apart" (though I testify to it)...this is a thing already done.
> ...





> I know we took a few steps together down this road before, and spoke briefly. And I am aware of what you have said...of your discovery of futility and inability to "separate" Jesus Christ from religion. And in that I understand why one would be loathe to give themselves in investigation toward what appears untangle-able and only to frustration. And soiling.
> If I told you this is my labor everyday to set Christ apart from this thing I find no less persuading in myself...than outside myself...of religious "mindedness" of formulae and concoctions...would you understand?


I think I would (more or less).
An expansion on -


> futility and inability to "separate" Jesus Christ from religion.


And I may be guilty of breaking the rules of logic here -
Its true I cannot separate Jesus from religion. I reject organized religion/Christianity so therefore had to reject their idea of Jesus as a Savior/God/etc. based on a lack of other evidence.
However Jesus is said (by the same folks I just rejected, not logical right?) to have a certain outlook/qualities that I respect/admire/think is worth emulating and have retained that despite rejecting him as a savior/God.
Maybe in a small way that could be considered comparable/relatable to -


> If I told you this is my labor everyday to set Christ apart from this thing I find no less persuading in myself...than outside myself...of religious "mindedness" of formulae and concoctions..


Both seem to desire to separate yet retain?


> A young man desiring to be, in as much sincerity as known to him, of service. But told he must be disqualified from that service on the basis of his appearance (O! what wrong inferences and presumption is found there!) because some have found "the offerings are off" due to his (and their) hippy appearance.
> Tripping at their reasoning this youth said "you mean for looking too much like Him?"...pointing to the crucifix adorning the "sanctuary"


.
I am... not sure of the word(s).... touched? appreciative? impressed?
all of those?..... that you would remember and consider that experience.


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## Israel (Jun 15, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I think I would (more or less).
> An expansion on -
> 
> And I may be guilty of breaking the rules of logic here -
> ...


I am serious...how could I not?
I see myself, and have heard the testimony of countless others...and (though this may remain hard to swallow) I believe I listen for the spirit.


I am in some way convinced, though no to the point of declaration of its absolute necessity (and yet, still, very persuaded) that everyone the Lord calls must, in some way...wend, hack, fight, labor, through the religious jungle. It's a swamp, a quagmire, a most terrible dark and gloomy place of brambles and thorns and clinging vines...

(I have never read Pilgrim's Progress by Bunyon...but am well aware he makes a point of those places where the soul can be all but overcome)

I ask you in all sincerity...what hasn't man...when discovering (almost anything)...even what seems the very best of things...turn into an institution?

Look, I love the joy of discovery. I love the joy (when I see it) in a man who does things from a passion to know...I don't despise "that guy" who labors in his lab, or in his garage, or in his mind...to find a thing, apprehend a thing...know a thing he has been given to see afar off...might indeed be!

And then...Eureka!

But what happens? What happens with the fellows who run and own Microsoft...or Apple...or...(insert a religious name!) they, by that discovery they once labored for in their own garage...and succeeded have become so big... so powerful and agglomerated, what happens?

They know. They are "it". And at the first, they draw to themselves others "like-minded"...they say to the guy (whose mind and tenacity and desire) they love...working in his little garage "come work for us...we'll give you your own lab, pay for all the stuff you are now finding so hard to pay for, you'll be free to devote yourself "full time" to your passion, pay you well, to boot!". And;

"everything you discover becomes our property".

I don't have time right now to go on...but...I think/hope you know where this may be headed.

Yes. Even the smallest interest in Jesus is now a danger to the "competition"...and there is a thing that has set itself up as the "keeper" of all secrets. To the little guy it makes offer..."why work in your own lab, having to reinvent the wheel at every step" (that we already have the patent for) when we can launch you from the place of all that we already have, and know...into the "beyond that".

"Look how big we are in this thing you are laboring in...we have the way to help you succeed".
And yes...we have policies in place to "help" you...(trust us) we have learned they are for your own good...and advancement...after all they're tested!" (Look how big we are!)



What an offer!


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## NCHillbilly (Jun 15, 2018)

That's one thing that turns me off on organized religion-it's a money racket for a big part. I worked for six years for the UMC at a "retreat" they own near here for their bigwigs to relax at. A few thousand acres, a whole private lake, hotels, etc. Nastiest power struggles and office politics I've ever seen anywhere. And if they needed a few million bucks to renovate a hotel or do this or that, it was no big deal. I always wondered how many folks they could have helped with those tens or hundreds of millions of bucks that were going into recreation for the upper crust of the church administration.


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## Israel (Jun 15, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> That's one thing that turns me off on organized religion-it's a money racket for a big part. I worked for six years for the UMC at a "retreat" they own near here for their bigwigs to relax at. A few thousand acres, a whole private lake, hotels, etc. Nastiest power struggles and office politics I've ever seen anywhere. And if they needed a few million bucks to renovate a hotel or do this or that, it was no big deal. I always wondered how many folks they could have helped with those tens or hundreds of millions of bucks that were going into recreation for the upper crust of the church administration.



The things "seen" start very small. And I am a liar if I don't repeat what I said before "I find these things in myself". I find in myself a desire for an "amen, brother"...I find a desire for affirmation (it makes me feel "bigger") I also find an all but irresistible self indulgence. And this...so often...in the very face of those things I condemn others for in (what_ I call_) their "indulgence".

I find offense...when I am resisted...I find a "call to fight"...when I feel threatened...or opposed. I don't very much like "feeling ignored". In short...in this world I think I pretty much am precisely no different than most men...just maybe..."worse".

Why worse? Because I am given to a stance (I once assumed...was "up for my assuming") that Jesus ain't no liar, nor fool. In fact, he's all that _is truth_. And_...in charge_. But I find myself still stumbling...falling...to the weakest of persuasions...envies, strife and such. I understand the "draw" of religion..."make yourself big...inoculate against your own decrease by a very simple thing..."

And that is simply view all opposition as diabolical. All resistance as "from liars". Cocoon yourself in that, wrap yourself in that, inure yourself...in that. This way you don't ever have to deal with facing your own hypocrisy, your own self indulgence, your own arrogance, your own...fear...of being to small to be known...by God. The very God (one such as I) proclaims knows the very hairs on the head of each.

But...even if these things be condemned in me...and I see them plainly...it's not for me to find fault with "what appears" to indulge them no less...for in myself...I know I have no power to resist them.
So...if they are resisted...I surely know if I seek to take "credit" for that...I must manifestly forfeit such help...and the issue becomes "Do you like the fun and comfort of just believing a "little lie" (you are right and everyone else is wrong)...or...do you want to "come clean".

So. Could it really be Jesus...speaking through "an atheist"...

"hey man...you are way too self absorbed"?
"Hey man. you say and try to act like humility is a good thing...but..."
"Hey man...you sound like just another religious pimp"
"hey man...you ain't all you think you are!"

Oh, my! (Even someone as self assured, as brilliant to himself as the most shining star...can come to know there's a hidden encouragement inside every rebuke...and they are indeed as much a sign of the Lord's love as the most tender word)

Jesus is just who He says.  Showing up when _I least_...and where _I least _expect Him. (Don't take this to mean I believe "atheists are the farthest thing from God!"...but sometimes there's a dissonance that needs to be worked out between...confessing to believing a thing...and _really _believing a thing. How could I truly think an atheist is any farther from Jesus Christ?...though at times I know I have acted upon that...)




I think...and have so often thought so very wrongly...I "have power" over Him...(and that_ is the nut of _religious enticement..."use Jesus to make yourself...BIG"...make yourself the Jesus storehouse...and nobody gets "any" unless it's OK with you). This thing to make ourselves appear big (appear indispensable)...takes as many forms as anything  man might find to pursue...money, power, notoriety.

But...I really do believe in the God who knows all the hairs on my head...precisely because He finds me in all my comfortable little hiding spots...and flushes me out. Yes, I believe He sends Jesus. Even to someone...like me.

The term "too big to fail" comes to mind...I think it's a gold ring almost everyone (at one time or another) is enticed to grasp at.

But I can't deny this.
There is One made so small...to succeed.

PS. You know this inuring against legitimate opposition also takes as many forms as postures a man might take. Yes, it's easy enough...if succumbing to the religious bent...to see all others a devils. But to those who also have a little room inside in which they look at themselves...and fall for what they see...

If they are "smart"...well they are only opposed...because others are "dumb".

If they are rich...they are only opposed because others are poor and jealous.


We may just as well admit all our disputes come from someone writing on our _little self mirror_...a thing we don't like.

I really do believe...Jesus wrote across mine "dead".

Scared the *&%$ outta me...and fought it, till I knew it was right.

Yeah...He was small enough...to get inside and past all the defenses.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 15, 2018)

I'm Christian, yet they turn me off more than anything I know of. The arrogance of spouting your belief as fact.... and they don't even see it. And then the argument arises as to how it is fact..... because the bible says it so..... what a mess. I do have strong beliefs.... but they are mine, they are what I believe, they are not based on fact, but rather on faith, and I don't expect anyone to see it as fact.


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## bullethead (Jun 15, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> I'm Christian, yet they turn me off more than anything I know of. The arrogance of spouting your belief as fact.... and they don't even see it. And then the argument arises as to how it is fact..... because the bible says it so..... what a mess. I do have strong beliefs.... but they are mine, they are what I believe, they are not based on fact, but rather on faith, and I don't expect anyone to see it as fact.


1gr8bldr bats cleanup for a reason.
Great post


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## Israel (Jun 15, 2018)

These things are necessary.


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## 660griz (Jun 27, 2018)

BassMan31 said:


> Seriously, now. Apart from the obvious, what is the most off-putting thing people of faith do or say that lowers your opinion of them personally and their faith as a whole?



Praying for the end of time/second coming. All of my family and most of my friends are religious. Thankfully , I never hear this nonsense uttered from them.


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## atlashunter (Jun 27, 2018)

660griz said:


> Praying for the end of time/second coming. All of my family and most of my friends are religious. Thankfully , I never hear this nonsense uttered from them.



That's a good one. This life isn't enough. They can't wait for it to end because they expect more. If there is a greater example of greed I don't know what it would be.


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## oldfella1962 (Jun 28, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> That's a good one. This life isn't enough. They can't wait for it to end because they expect more. If there is a greater example of greed I don't know what it would be.



it's not always greed for some people though. I'm sure more than a few just seek a senses of justice at life's unfairness. Since there is little true justice in this world, they figure god will "get it right" since he sees every little thing each person does, and will reward them accordingly. Maybe they realize some people really get a raw deal in this life (crippled, live in a dirt poor dangerous country, etc.etc.) and they will get a better deal in the next life. 

This poses an interesting question: would you the faithful but financially secure & healthy believer give up your place in heaven (you'll just die and become worm food, no more consciousness) so a person who had a much worse life than you can get an eternal reward? Obviously the bible doesn't talk about such a situation, I'm just making up something completely hypothetical to think about.


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## 660griz (Jun 29, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> I'm Christian, yet they turn me off more than anything I know of. The arrogance of spouting your belief as fact.... and they don't even see it. And then the argument arises as to how it is fact..... because the bible says it so..... what a mess. I do have strong beliefs.... but they are mine, they are what I believe, they are not based on fact, but rather on faith, and I don't expect anyone to see it as fact.



Very impressive post. 

If all religious folks could be that honest, I don't think our worlds would ever clash.


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## atlashunter (Jun 29, 2018)

oldfella1962 said:


> it's not always greed for some people though. I'm sure more than a few just seek a senses of justice at life's unfairness. Since there is little true justice in this world, they figure god will "get it right" since he sees every little thing each person does, and will reward them accordingly. Maybe they realize some people really get a raw deal in this life (crippled, live in a dirt poor dangerous country, etc.etc.) and they will get a better deal in the next life.
> 
> This poses an interesting question: would you the faithful but financially secure & healthy believer give up your place in heaven (you'll just die and become worm food, no more consciousness) so a person who had a much worse life than you can get an eternal reward? Obviously the bible doesn't talk about such a situation, I'm just making up something completely hypothetical to think about.



Justice isn’t to be found in their beliefs. A fetus that dies in the womb is vaulted into heaven while a Hindu that spent a life in poverty and hardship but was a good person is doomed to burn for eternity. Is that just?


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## NCHillbilly (Jun 29, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Justice isn’t to be found in their beliefs. A fetus that dies in the womb is vaulted into heaven while a Hindu that spent a life in poverty and hardship but was a good person is doomed to burn for eternity. Is that just?


Don't forget the serial killer/rapist/cannibal who repents of his sins while choking to death on a human baby finger that went down the wrong pipe.


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## ky55 (Jun 29, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> Don't forget the serial killer/rapist/cannibal who repents of his sins while choking to death on a human baby finger that went down the wrong pipe.




*Saving Jeffrey Dahmer*
*The world knew Jeffrey Dahmer as a hardened killer. But one pastor knew him as a forgiven sinner.*

*http://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/christianity/2006/11/saving-jeffrey-dahmer.aspx*

..............................................................................................................

“When Dahmer died, I was a staff writer for The Oklahoman. I’ll never forget talking that day with Curt Booth, a member of the Crescent Church of Christ in Oklahoma, about his role in Dahmer’s conversion.
“I know Jeffrey was ready,” Booth told me. “Today, all the angels in heaven are rejoicing because Jeffrey has come home.”
Booth said he had no doubt about the sincerity of Dahmer’s conversion.
“On the great resurrection day, I’m expecting to see him right along there with Abraham, David, Isaac, James, John and all the saints that have lived right up to the modern day,” Booth said.”

https://christianchronicle.org/did-jailhouse-religion-save-jeffrey-dahmer/


*


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## Israel (Jun 30, 2018)

Mercy and grace are most despised by what cannot receive it.
After all the reams of writing and pages of refutations succinctly reduced to "in such and such a situation men will undoubtedly react in accord with the situation as described in specific parameters"

Such as:
Men fear the terror of death...therefore a god must be invented to save them from it.

The type of god is totally culturally reliant. ("If you were in India" the tripe goes, "you'd be a devout Hindu secondary to your religiosity") A religious soul merely seeking what's "at hand" to fix upon.

"You only believe because you have been indoctrinated and not [yet] found means of escape"

And on and on.
So, Dahmer. Is he being mentioned as one so _obviously (_to_ whom?)_ far from a salvation preached as to make the preaching of such a salvation _manifestly_ untenable?
How could a Dahmer..._be saved? (Or a Hitler, or a _______________) _Use whatever name you must to fill in the blank that makes the obvious distinction between oneself and "them".

Yet, according to the premises so persistently presented (too much alliteration?)... each must be what they are...brain chemistry, conditioning, dispositions, life experiences, indoctrinations, physiologies not yet fully understood...in other words...how could "a" Dahmer _not be_ a Dahmer? And if he is irremediably "locked in" to being so...who is _so outside_ their_ own strict confines _of the above mentioned...to judge him?

Ahhh, this place where men are manifestly stripped of their right to judge other men, being themselves subject to the very same things by which they judge others...are shown to be no more in integrity than as those with sight might amuse themselves by moving and hiding food from a hungry blind man. It can be done, but is it "right"?

This matter of judging is no small thing in the teaching of Jesus Christ. One will find, must find, themselves judged to a perfect consistency...in how they judge. If one says...man cannot be changed, there can be no greater influence _than all we have accounted for_ to enter in, and he is irremediably condemned to being what he is (How could "a" Dahmer be saved?!!!)...this man will find, in the time of needed change (and O! He will find it!)...such a pressing need for relief as he has not yet known...that unless he submit to the _reality of One having entered in_ to the end of redeeming man...he will not be released until the uttermost farthing is paid. The influence...unaccounted for in all of _man's calculus._

We preach One who has paid all for those who are both learning and being further convinced...of his own _necessity of change._

The man very content with himself, of himself, is _utterly unable_ to account for the existence (in his self righteous judging) of "a" Dahmer...and projects from himself "But Dahmer _should know_ not to be _a_ Dahmer".

And few will see the utter corruption of such reasoning...if, in thinking, (and heart) they hold themselves to be the "better man".

Mercy is here. Its Fount...is not leaving.


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## NCHillbilly (Jun 30, 2018)

Israel said:


> Mercy and grace are most despised by what cannot receive it.
> After all the reams of writing and pages of refutations succinctly reduced to "in such and such a situation men will undoubtedly react in accord with the situation as described in specific parameters"
> 
> Such as:
> ...


I will and can judge Dahmer. He was a perverted, psychotic, murderous, sadistic cannibal. That's not self-righteousness, that's just how it is. 

Now, how about that good feller in India burning in eternal torment because he didn't call on Jesus? For the same reason you or I have never called on Vishnu, Buddha, or Anubis?


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## Spotlite (Jun 30, 2018)

oldfella1962 said:


> it's not always greed for some people though.


No one looks forward to dying. We just don’t fear it. Saying you’re ready only means you’re prepared. We are content in everything.

It’s not greed at all. 

Below is an excellent point, there’s a reason that 660 is not hearing any of that. It’s not happening.


660griz said:


> Praying for the end of time/second coming. All of my family and most of my friends are religious. Thankfully , I never hear this nonsense uttered from them.


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## Spotlite (Jun 30, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> how about that good feller in India burning in eternal torment because he didn't call on Jesus? For the same reason you or I have never called on Vishnu, Buddha, or Anubis?


Maybe........Whosoever will ???


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## BassMan31 (Jun 30, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> I will and can judge Dahmer. He was a perverted, psychotic, murderous, sadistic cannibal. That's not self-righteousness, that's just how it is.
> 
> Now, how about that good feller in India burning in eternal torment because he didn't call on Jesus? For the same reason you or I have never called on Vishnu, Buddha, or Anubis?



It is not for the same reason.


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## NCHillbilly (Jun 30, 2018)

BassMan31 said:


> It is not for the same reason.


Yes, it is-whether you will admit it or not. If a Hindu missionary came up to you tomorrow and tried to convert you, would you listen to him? You are a product of your culture, just like he is. Tell me why you have never prayed to Anubis? Maybe because you think he is a false god worshipped by other people who are different than you? Why would the Indian guy think any differently about your God?


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## matt79brown (Jun 30, 2018)

In the 17th chapter of John, Jesus prayed that believers would be ''one''. It was important to Him but His followers don't seem to concerned with the idea. As a believer I try to follow Christ's example rather than obey the rules of man's organizations.  I understand what Mahatma Gandhi meant when he was asked about Christianity and he replied '' I like their Christ, not their Christian.'' You may hear me argue some points too often, but you'll never hear me put myself in God's shoes. I believe there is a God, and I'm not Him. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. As far as godless reprobates are concerned, Jesus would've sat down and had supper with 'em. I'm with Jesus!


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## Israel (Jul 1, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> I will and can judge Dahmer. He was a perverted, psychotic, murderous, sadistic cannibal. That's not self-righteousness, that's just how it is.
> 
> Now, how about that good feller in India burning in eternal torment because he didn't call on Jesus? For the same reason you or I have never called on Vishnu, Buddha, or Anubis?



The matter had far less to do with examination of Dahmer's appearance than it did with why he was found suitable to being brought up to begin with.

He is merely of convenient use to attempt to vilify, no less than your "good feller", the matter of mercy and grace found in Jesus Christ. Do you see that "good" is simply one of the parameters (though extreme) to indict the God that has reconciled man to Himself through Jesus.

But first let's address _your _assumptions. You assume you have adequately defined the borders for your indictment. Dahmer who once walked here, and _your construct_ of a "good man". The God who would accept "_a"_ Dahmer on no other basis that his choosing to show him mercy through His revelation of Jesus Christ, and your "good" man whom you say (according to your parameters/borders) is burning in eternal torment. This is all, and only, your own hypothetical...that that "good" man is burning.

Besides the fact that our exploration of what "good" might ultimately mean to either, or both of us in pages of discussions, I will simply state that _my faith _(which I believe you assume wrongly in your construct) has shown me referred unceasingly to the One who would not accept to Himself assignment by man of being "good". This is the One through whom I have faith in God, of whom He states "there is _none good_, but God." And yes, I believe Him, having sought out the significance of His saying such in my exchanges with Him.

Men's references most usually have an ascent of order "good...better...best", but Jesus Christ has, in me, dissuaded to a great extent that notion. Good...is of itself, an absolute. Something being "good enough" (as the porch I am working on) speaks only, and _absolutely _to its deficit of goodness. It is not perfect in goodness, though it might stand testing against others to a show of betterness over some, and a lesser stature against others. Yet we would have to concede in such measurement _against_/comparison _to_/testing _of, _that we possessed (for such measurement) in ourselves to a full knowing of precisely all that constitutes a "good" porch.

So I see in your construct (and infer by your descriptors of "a" Dahmer) that you have put two on the plate for testing. "A" Dahmer, and a "good" man. Are they both...men? (No matter that yours is merely imagined) Is your "feller"...perfect in goodness? Or do you measure him against _your notion of goodness_...and find him..."good enough?" I tend to think the latter, otherwise it might behoove you to go search him out, unless, of course, you think likewise of yourself...a perfection of goodness, in which case you would have no need of learning of such a man. But then you would be saying "my scale of measurement is perfect in myself, for I myself am perfect and suited". I don't think you would say that...openly. (nor do I...generally, nevertheless, I have found _my own clever ways_ of seeking to express my goodness).
And they are being exposed.

But the question then remains...are they both men? Dahmer...and the "good" man? A better man...and a worse man? Jesus came to redeem man. The only way any can put "a" Dahmer beyond such redemption is to assign him "not being man". (And not only this did Jesus come for...but he Himself states he came for "sick" man.)

So, if "_a_" Dahmer is beyond such redemption by being assigned to "not man", why the fuss over him? What foolishness! If "a" Dahmer "be not" man, on what basis can he be judged...for not acting like...man? Do you judge your dog for eating at a carcass?

But here is where man trips himself...(for I do not believe he can be rightly assigned being "not man") but he can be assigned (because men recognize "enough" of man in him to call him...man)...that the kindredness they recognize (but which they no less judge by their assumed concept of the "perfect man" they house) to the place of condemnation...as man. And yes, there is a something that has a lust to see "man" condemned. Never knowing in doing so...it likewise condemns itself. It has "put up for the testing" in such judgment...its own standard of "good".

Many men do not know they are _in this arena._ But, _we all are. _Your assumption that "_my_ faith" condemns your "good feller" to torment (_which is the man_ of your own _imagined_ "good") meets "my" man (of good) here. But..."my own man" is all of wickedness, perversion, seeking to ascend upon the consumption of other men...a cannibal. I have no hope in him in this contest at all. Therefore, _I forfeit_ any right to contest you. _MY_ faith is that entering contest with "other" man is all and only what leads to grievous injury. And even greater blindness in darkness._ MY_ faith is held against that darkness of "my" self.


My _only hope_ in this dusty arena is that the man who judged me rightly, and perfectly, as _one not knowing at all_ what he does (for He makes this clear) will come as promised with the forgiveness sought for "that man". Some may say "He _is _what _is not_"...but then...how does he know me...perfectly? And yes, I have fought him as "other man" to grievous injury. Jesus _masters _me...every moment. I don't confess Him to my "betterment", He is confessed as my conqueror. I _am loser_ against Him.

This thing _I know _as loser against Him...upon what basis is _my knowing _disqualified? Am I "not man"? Am I, of all, _not allowed_ knowing? Or am I man of such deficit of "manhood" to not merit being called man? Be careful how you judge...for you may reveal in it...our kindredness. We are either very much alike (which I believe we are, man!) or you must totally disown me as "man". Which Jesus has shown in Himself, by having not done it...the great cost of holding on to "man". In the face of God.

I say without fear Jesus is _the_ normal...man. And I have no will to compare any against Him as I have done in my own great abnormality. It would be a silly thing for a man whose forgiveness comes, only comes...when accepting the mercy shown to the man _in place_...he is the man who doesn't know what he is doing.

Forgive them Father, they know not what they do. For me to seek to come out of "that place" to fight a contest against "other man", believing I now know what I do in ability to overcome...leaves me bereft of the mercy I am being convinced is _better than life_.

God forbid I seek to disqualify...any man. Even a "good" one. For I only disqualify myself...in doing so. And as for the "worst"? I fight Jesus Himself...and am always...loser. This contest in my own little arena is ever present; a will to see myself as triumphant victor..."right"(and good!)...or see my need of being saved? One _is_ true...the other...a construct.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 1, 2018)




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## Miguel Cervantes (Jul 1, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Maybe this isn't my question because I am not Godless.......
> But arrogant, stuck up rude people, and those that are just plain stupid. From all walks of life.
> 
> I was at a store in March and lady rebuked me and called me son of satan because I wouldn't take her demo crap brochures.
> ...


Some of the highest academically educated people I've ever met or talked with are also among the lowest in intelligence. It is a strange dichotomy that has survived the ages.


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## Spotlite (Jul 1, 2018)

Israel said:


> You assume you have adequately defined the borders for your indictment.
> 
> and your “good” man is burning in eternal torment
> 
> ...



^^^this^^^^


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## Spotlite (Jul 1, 2018)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Some of the highest academically educated people I've ever met or talked with are also among the lowest in intelligence. It is a strange dichotomy that has survived the ages.


Yup. Oh it’s surviving!! Jerry Clower says it best “educated beyond their intelligence”


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## WaltL1 (Jul 1, 2018)

> Miguel Cervantes said:
> Some of the highest academically educated people I've ever met or talked with are also among the lowest in intelligence. It is a strange dichotomy that has survived the ages.





Spotlite said:


> Yup. Oh it’s surviving!! Jerry Clower says it best “educated beyond their intelligence”


I would suggest maybe "intelligence" isn't necessarily the word that applies or at least not completely -


> in·tel·li·gence
> [inˈteləjəns]
> NOUN
> the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills


It seems there are some number of folks who have a very high ability to acquire knowledge, its the applying part that seems to escape them?
Maybe its the difference between "memorizing" and "understanding"?


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## Spotlite (Jul 1, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I would suggest maybe "intelligence" isn't necessarily the word that applies or at least not completely -
> 
> It seems there are some number of folks who have a very high ability to acquire knowledge, its the applying part that seems to escape them?
> Maybe its the difference between "memorizing" and "understanding"?


I would agree. To know something doesn’t mean to understand it, if is not understood, it cant be properly applied?


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## atlashunter (Jul 1, 2018)

Just or merciful. You can have one but not both. Mercy and grace for Dahmer. No mercy for the Hindu. Justice? No sir. Take away the promise of a blissful afterlife and replace it with justice without exception and christianity would’nt last another generation.


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## ky55 (Jul 1, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Just or merciful. You can have one but not both. Mercy and grace for Dahmer. No mercy for the Hindu. Justice? No sir. Take away the promise of a blissful afterlife and replace it with justice without exception and christianity would’nt last another generation.



I wonder if Dahmer’s 17 victims received mercy and grace, or did they receive justice?
Was their forgiveness required for his alleged salvation?


*


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## Israel (Jul 1, 2018)

You say 


atlashunter said:


> Just or merciful. You can have one but not both. Mercy and grace for Dahmer. No mercy for the Hindu. Justice? No sir. Take away the promise of a blissful afterlife and replace it with justice without exception and christianity would’nt last another generation.



Only you imply no mercy for the Hindu.


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## atlashunter (Jul 1, 2018)

Israel said:


> You say
> 
> 
> Only you imply no mercy for the Hindu.



Revelation 20
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Since when do Christians teach that people can get to heaven without accepting the gospel?


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## Spotlite (Jul 1, 2018)

ky55 said:


> Was their forgiveness required for his alleged salvation?
> 
> 
> *


How do we know he was saved or not saved? Part of the “judging” is realizing that we don’t decide saved and not saved or place one in or out of eternal salvation either.

We only know what it takes for any, whoever believes that they know the heart and mind of another man has only fooled themselves.

What Isreal is saying below speaks volumes.



Israel said:


> Only you imply no mercy for the Hindu.


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## ky55 (Jul 1, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> How do we know he was saved or not saved? Part of the “judging” is realizing that we don’t decide saved and not saved or place one in or out of eternal salvation either.
> 
> We only know what it takes for any, whoever believes that they know the heart and mind of another man has only fooled themselves.
> 
> What Isreal is saying below speaks volumes.



I don’t believe he’s saved or not saved. His jail house preacher said he was saved. My comment was about his “alleged” salvation.

I believe he’s just dead.
And the only thing different about him being dead is the fact that his father took half of his ashes and his mother took the other half-
So he’s dead in two different places.

Israel’s comment only ignores your gospel.
Read Atlas’ post #51. 
Maybe we’re taking it out of context?


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jul 1, 2018)

ky55 said:


> I don’t believe he’s saved or not saved. His jail house preacher said he was saved. My comment was about his “alleged” salvation.
> 
> I believe he’s just dead.
> And the only thing different about him being dead is the fact that his father took half of his ashes and his mother took the other half-
> ...


It matters not how many parts the dust we return to is divided. It is our soul that is at the center of this objective. 

"By the sweat of your brow will you have food to eat until you return to the ground from which you were made. For you were made from dust, and to dust you will return."


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## Spotlite (Jul 1, 2018)

ky55 said:


> I don’t believe he’s saved or not saved. His jail house preacher said he was saved. My comment was about his “alleged” salvation.
> 
> I believe he’s just dead.
> And the only thing different about him being dead is the fact that his father took half of his ashes and his mother took the other half-
> ...


The soul isn’t. How does post #51 ignore my gospel? Does the poster know who’s name is or isn’t there? That’s interesting if he does. But it sounds if he’s taken it upon himself to be the eternal judge after all, rather than the accused Christian. Reminds me of another one of Israel’s comments 


Israel said:


> Only you imply no mercy for the Hindu.


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## ky55 (Jul 1, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> The soul isn’t. How does post #51 ignore my gospel? Does the poster know who’s name is or isn’t there? That’s interesting if he does. But it sounds if he’s taken it upon himself to be the eternal judge after all, rather than the accused Christian. Reminds me of another one of Israel’s comments



Hey, it’s your book. 
You can own it or ignore it as you see fit.


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## Spotlite (Jul 1, 2018)

ky55 said:


> Hey, it’s your book.
> You can own it or ignore it as you see fit.


Lol ok


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## atlashunter (Jul 1, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> The soul isn’t. How does post #51 ignore my gospel? Does the poster know who’s name is or isn’t there? That’s interesting if he does. But it sounds if he’s taken it upon himself to be the eternal judge after all, rather than the accused Christian. Reminds me of another one of Israel’s comments



You said: "We only know what it takes for any..."

Christians claim not only that there is a heaven but that they know how to get there. One need not be responsible for an outcome to know what the outcome will be based on the conditions. Christians tell the world they are doomed to burn forever unless they take up the christian religion and follow their prescribed path to salvation. Then when you point out the horrible injustice their claims amount to if true they say they don't know what happens to people in the afterlife because they aren't the judge.


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## Spotlite (Jul 1, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> You said: "We only know what it takes for any..."
> 
> Christians claim not only that there is a heaven but that they know how to get there. One need not be responsible for an outcome to know what the outcome will be based on the conditions. Christians tell the world they are doomed to burn forever unless they take up the christian religion and follow their prescribed path to salvation. Then when you point out the horrible injustice their claims amount to if true they say they don't know what happens to people in the afterlife because they aren't the judge.


The requirement and consequences are there. That’s what I mean when I say “we only know what it takes”

We can tell the sinner about his doom and tell the saint about his reward. “Knowing” who that is is impossible. 

If Dahmer said he repented and received salvation, we can assume that, but only God knows. If the Hindu said he rejected  God, we can assume that, but only God knows. We don’t make the judgement on either.

Same book says every man is given a measure of faith. I find no reason that every man will not be given a chance to accept of reject. Even on the cross, one thief accepted, one rejected. No injustice.


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## ky55 (Jul 1, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Christians tell the world they are doomed to burn forever unless they take up the christian religion and follow their prescribed path to salvation. Then when you point out the horrible injustice their claims amount to if true they say they don't know what happens to people in the afterlife because they aren't the judge.



When you hear it in person the humility is syrupy sweet.


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## Israel (Jul 1, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Revelation 20
> 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
> 
> Since when do Christians teach that people can get to heaven without accepting the gospel?



I don't know all of what every Christian teaches. The Gospel, which I am not ashamed to admit I once viewed as something "others" needed (can you see how a man _like me _might infer, in_ his presumption_ of knowing it, _having it_...could then place himself in the position _of necessity _to others?) "The world...needs...me!" The world...needs what I have.

Do you also see the un-tenability of that position? Perhaps you cannot, or do not wish, to enter in to this reasoning...but I don't think it is foreign to the believer. As the Gospel is _in all_ the matter of Jesus' Christ's necessity to the world, it is plainly a matter of a usurpation exercised for one such as myself to have held to the view of his own necessity to the world. Even in this blindness, I have yet seen much of the patience...and mercy of God to such an ignorant...and rebellious one. How can a "christian" find grace to bear the revelation...he has sought to usurp Christ? Yet...it was given. The one who claims by confession to "know Him"...yet in all practice (from a perverse view) manifestly seeks to take His place. Grace, I testify...is indeed abundant!

How then...could such a man deny there is no less mercy to the man who may not (or say he does not) know Him?  Or at least has made _no such claim_ of knowing...while _plainly_ denying? Walt was not wrong a little while ago when saying something to the effect of enjoying (for this time at least) a place of exemption in not having to be burdened as those who have "entered the game" (so to speak). Nevertheless, I believe...all are "in it"...this matter of "what _is_ real...and what_ is _true?"

If I tell you I have been in jail with tormentors till the uttermost penny is understood as having already been paid (by another...whose necessity I cannot deny) it is of little consequence...that you believe..._me. _I do not deny the scripture. What I can deny, what I now see I am given to deny...is the man who thinks he knows it well enough to the ultimate finding of "who is in...who is out". As though that man can presume to himself now...role of gatekeeper.

The apostle Paul...said this:

Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we should be as reprobates. 
For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.

The self approving man (of which I am not unfamiliar, carrying his carcass about daily) cannot help but make all sorts of judgments as _to fitness for salvation. He may even presume much..._from the very scripture that warn severely against presumption! 

The scripture has no fault and cannot be blamed for that man's presumption. Unless light come...he will not be delivered from his endless struggle to _present himself_ to others as right...and _good. _But this is the burden he has taken on by will, not really believing this:

Now to him that works is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that works not,_ but believes on him that justifies the ungodly_, his faith is counted for righteousness. 

Until I was presented plainly the most ungodly of men (even _that man_ thinking he both knew...and _was doing the will of God_) that had little to no meaning to me. I read it. I am sure if specifically asked...I would have said "of course I believe it!"

But something had to wear itself "out" in struggle. Something nailed to the cross in another, and by another...had to cease..._plainly_ in my sight. I am just a thief hanging...who cannot deny he sees someone "better", and not deserving of what I know are my own just deserts. Am I any better than the other thief mocking...for what I have been allowed, and _only_ allowed...to see? Any _refusal_ to identify with "the _other_ thief" immediately is self undercutting to the view of that better One...who has come for us...both. It's plain...because he does not just hang...next to _only_ me. 

"I am not like that other thief" is something that, if not as plainly spoken by me, (inside me) has certainly, nevertheless, made itself known as an attitude embraced...once upon a time. What may remain of it...God knows.

I may never hear what _I think is needful_ in acknowledgement of rightness...from that other thief. I may die first...he may die first _without my_ hearing. But as surely as the God who has made known to me my most secret conversations regarding my own _goodness (insert laughter)_ has made plain...are heard!, how can I demand that "other" man _may only see _grace if he performs to my standard? The _standard of the man_ who has been shown _his own inner conversation_ has been _so in opposition_ to God's grace given through Jesus Christ? And yet...God has nevertheless...shown him (that man!) grace! Even...the most...unGodly. Yes, I am the man who believed...God owed him something. At the very least...an explanation! And a fitting one (to my own estimation) at that! (What a fool!)

But what I have learned is that the Gospel is first and foremost a gift...to a man_ like me. _A man needing to make a show, a man needing to demonstrate his ability. Yeah...I took it on as "a chore I can handle". And what a chore it became to that man...trying to prove his necessity in the world, to the world. Little did I know how well it was fit to _that man. _Who was so convinced (of himself) he could handle showing the world...what good is. (insert more laughter) My_ own estimations_...were being exposed.

Yes, I trust God. In truth the gospel is doing its precise work to show...even to a man...who _is trustworthy_...and what is not. There is indeed a winnowing. It _is _necessary. Truth, having the peculiar nature of singularity...is to the disposal of many many lies. Lies...once loved. Dearly.

But, I am what I am, by the grace of God. Revealed through Jesus Christ. He _really_ knows man...and yet is not ashamed of being counted among them.

This is often my deepest wonder...how could One who_ truly knows me_...love _me?_

But I have, to whatever extent I yet have...worn myself out trying to present something _for which he should_...love me. I didn't know I was calling Him liar...till I did know.

So...a Hindu? God's already made plain to me he can win against the toughest case I have ever known, I can no longer doubt that any other is really other than "a piece of cake".


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## atlashunter (Jul 1, 2018)

Israel said:


> I don't know all of what every Christian teaches.



Perhaps not but you can't claim ignorance to the christian doctrine on which the quoted scripture is based. The doctrine that all are doomed for eternal torment unless they accept Jesus as their lord and savior.


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## Spotlite (Jul 1, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Perhaps not but you can't claim ignorance to the christian doctrine on which the quoted scripture is based. The doctrine that all are doomed for eternal torment unless they accept Jesus as their lord and savior.


Here’s an idea so we can all understand it, how bout you explain that doctrine and how it works for all mankind in full detail?


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## ky55 (Jul 1, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Here’s an idea so we can all understand it, how bout you explain that doctrine and how it works for all mankind in full detail?



ob·tuse
əbˈto͞os,äbˈto͞os/
_adjective_

1. 
annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand.
"he wondered if the doctor was being deliberately obtuse"
synonyms:stupid, slow-witted, slow, dull-witted, unintelligent, ignorant, simpleminded, witless;

Or maybe?

*Obfuscation*

*Obfuscation* is the obscuring of the intended meaning of communication by making the message difficult to understand, usually with confusing and ambiguous language. The obfuscation might be either unintentional or intentional (although intent usually is connoted), and is accomplished with circumlocution (talking around the subject), the use of jargon (technical language of a profession), and the use of an argot (ingroup language) of limited communicative value to outsiders.


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## matt79brown (Jul 1, 2018)

Folks want options. Doesn't seem right.....What about...Why can't..... You mean..... Tibetan Buddhist sky burial won't get the job done?Surely the buzzard dung will grant me a better after life... Surely if I'm areal good guy all my life... But I've kept the strictest form of the law my whole life!!! Surely Allah will accept me....Since there is no god I've nothing to worry about, right? 
 I've weighed the options boys and if theres a better answer than Jesus, I ain't heard it yet. I got a hope of a better life, and I didn't have to do anything but believe that Jesus is the son of God and died to reconcile me to the God of heaven. It's the only hope I got. And it keeps me from being bitter like some of the folks on here. Hehehehe


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## atlashunter (Jul 1, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Here’s an idea so we can all understand it, how bout you explain that doctrine and how it works for all mankind in full detail?



Really gonna feign ignorance on this one?

https://www.dts.edu/about/doctrinalstatement/



> We believe that, owing to universal death through sin, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless born again; and that no degree of reformation however great, no attainments in morality however high, no culture however attractive, no baptism or other ordinance however administered, can help the sinner to take even one step toward heaven; but a new nature imparted from above, a new life implanted by the Holy Spirit through the Word, is absolutely essential to salvation, and only those thus saved are sons of God. We believe, also, that our redemption has been accomplished solely by the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, who was made to be sin and was made a curse for us, dying in our room and stead; and that no repentance, no feeling, no faith, no good resolutions, no sincere efforts, no submission to the rules and regulations of any church, nor all the churches that have existed since the days of the Apostles can add in the very least degree to the value of the blood, or to the merit of the finished work wrought for us by Him who united in His person true and proper deity with perfect and sinless humanity (Lev. 17:11; Isa. 64:6; Matt. 26:28; John 3:7–18; Rom. 5:6–9; 2 Cor. 5:21; Gal. 3:13; 6:15; Eph. 1:7; Phil. 3:4–9; Titus 3:5; James 1:18; 1 Pet. 1:18–19, 23).
> 
> We believe that the new birth of the believer comes only through faith in Christ and that repentance is a vital part of believing, and is in no way, in itself, a separate and independent condition of salvation; nor are any other acts, such as confession, baptism, prayer, or faithful service, to be added to believing as a condition of salvation (John 1:12; 3:16, 18, 36; 5:24; 6:29; Acts 13:39; 16:31; Rom. 1:16–17; 3:22, 26; 4:5; 10:4; Gal. 3:22).




https://bible.org/article/doctrinal-statement



> We believe that human beings were created in the image of God but fell into sin and are therefore lost. Only through personal faith in Jesus Christ and regeneration by the Holy Spirit can salvation and spiritual life be obtained.




http://www.sbc.net/bfm2000/bfm2000.asp



> There is no salvation apart from personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord.




https://www.thoughtco.com/southern-baptist-beliefs-700524



> The only way to get into heaven is salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. To achieve salvation one must confess faith in God who sent his Son Jesus to die on the cross for the sins of humankind.




https://www.nae.net/statement-of-faith/



> We believe that for the salvation of lost and sinful people, regeneration by the Holy Spirit is absolutely essential.
> 
> ...
> 
> We believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost; they that are saved unto the resurrection of life and they that are lost unto the resurrection of ****ation.




http://baptiststart.com/print/jesus_only_way.html



> However, the belief that Jesus is the exclusive mediator between God and humanity has been the teaching in all of christiandom throughout church history. It is only in the last century that mainline denominations have forsaken this foundational truth of the Christian faith. And now many of them -- and their secular fellow-travelers -- are offended that Baptists won't join them in the process of reinventing their beliefs.


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 1, 2018)

ky55 said:


> ob·tuse
> əbˈto͞os,äbˈto͞os/
> _adjective_
> 
> ...


I don’t believe the obtuse is the issue, the mental capacity is there. 

If obfuscation was the issue, why would one confused argue that he’s right without asking for clarification?


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 1, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> That's a good one. This life isn't enough. They can't wait for it to end because they expect more. If there is a greater example of greed I don't know what it would be.





matt79brown said:


> I've weighed the options boys and if theres a better answer than Jesus, I ain't heard it yet. I got a hope of a better life, and I didn't have to do anything but believe that Jesus is the son of God and died to reconcile me to the God of heaven. It's the only hope I got. And it keeps me from being bitter like some of the folks on here. Hehehehe


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 1, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Really gonna feign ignorance on this one?


We are not talking about what we believe gets us there. That was what the “we know what it takes for all” comment was about. 

Your issue wasn’t that at all. You’re questioning no mercy for the Hindu and if that’s justice. 



atlashunter said:


> Mercy and grace for Dahmer. No mercy for the Hindu. Justice?





Israel said:


> Only you imply no mercy for the Hindu.



We are asking you to explain how there’s no mercy for the Hindu and how would you know if his name isn't there and Dahmers is. This is related to “judging”. 


atlashunter said:


> Revelation 20
> 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


----------



## matt79brown (Jul 1, 2018)

Dahmer, I wonder if the sky burial buzzards would eat 'em?


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 1, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> We are not talking about what we believe gets us there. That was what the “we know what it takes for all” comment was about.
> 
> Your issue wasn’t that at all. You’re questioning no mercy for the Hindu and if that’s justice.
> 
> ...



Flip side of the same coin. What are you claiming salvation from? I already provided the scripture that answers that question. You seem to be ignoring it.


----------



## matt79brown (Jul 1, 2018)

Whoomp there what is? As eternal beings how can it be greedy to anticipate something you know is coming? Religion is all about dealing with the after life. Your religion deals with it by pretending it does not exist. I'd get me a different one. If there wasn't some tiny part of you that knows better...... you wouldn't make arguing with believers such an integral part of your life.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 1, 2018)

matt79brown said:


> Whoomp there what is? As eternal beings how can it be greedy to anticipate something you know is coming? Religion is all about dealing with the after life. Your religion deals with it by pretending it does not exist. I'd get me a different one. If there wasn't some tiny part of you that knows better...... you wouldn't make arguing with believers such an integral part of your life.



You're not eternal. You're mortal. But this life isn't enough for you. That's greedy. A life well lived should be enough.


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 1, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Flip side of the same coin. What are you claiming salvation from? I already provided the scripture that answers that question. You seem to be ignoring it.


No let’s stay on topic. Your issue is injustice with who’s left out out of the book of life and who’s added. 


atlashunter said:


> point out the horrible injustice.





atlashunter said:


> Mercy and grace for Dahmer. No mercy for the Hindu. Justice? No sir.


----------



## ky55 (Jul 1, 2018)

matt79brown said:


> Whoomp there what is? As eternal beings how can it be greedy to anticipate something you know is coming?



You don’t know any more than anybody else, which is exactly nothing.


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 2, 2018)

ky55 said:


> You don’t know any more than anybody else, which is exactly nothing.


Good point! Glad you made that. So that means that you, and others don't know it isn't coming either?


----------



## ky55 (Jul 2, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Good point! Glad you made that. So that means that you, and others don't know it isn't coming either?



It means that some of us don’t make any claims to any divine knowledge or revelation. 
Pretty simple really. 

*


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 2, 2018)

matt79brown said:


> how can it be greedy


It is not greedy. Using "greed" is nothing but a diversion.   


matt79brown said:


> If there wasn't some tiny part of you that knows better......


And now you know why a diversion is needed - to take away the focus from what is really going on and shift it to make it a Christian problem.............  

_"Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

"For when the Gentiles which have not the Law, do by nature the things contained in the Law.................. Which shew the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience.............."_


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 2, 2018)

ky55 said:


> It means that some of us don’t make any claims to any divine knowledge or revelation.
> Pretty simple really.


Not claiming divine...........maybe some don`t.




ky55 said:


> You don’t know any more than anybody else, which is exactly nothing.


But if this true, someone hasn't told the nay-sayers. They seem to consistently insist that they "know" a lot more than nothing.....


----------



## WaltL1 (Jul 2, 2018)

matt79brown said:


> Whoomp there what is? As eternal beings how can it be greedy to anticipate something you know is coming? Religion is all about dealing with the after life. Your religion deals with it by pretending it does not exist. I'd get me a different one. If there wasn't some tiny part of you that knows better...... you wouldn't make arguing with believers such an integral part of your life.





> Your religion





> Religion is all about dealing with the after life.


Refreshingly honest statement.


> pretending it does not exist.


So because you desire an afterlife, you have shopped around, picked your best option to fulfill your desire and haven't heard of a better deal than the one Jesus gives you. And to top it off, you don't have to do anything other than believe.
Again refreshingly honest.

On a side note, if religion is all about dealing with an afterlife (your words) and Atheism makes no claim about an afterlife...…… you still sticking with Atheism is a religion?


----------



## ky55 (Jul 2, 2018)

matt79brown said:


> Religion is all about dealing with the after life. Your religion deals with it by pretending it does not exist. I'd get me a different one. If there wasn't some tiny part of you that knows better...... you wouldn't make arguing with believers such an integral part of your life.



This is the A/A/A forum. It’s here for discussions of different beliefs, and no beliefs.
I’d bet a dollar against a donut hole that most, if not all, of the A/A’s here never initiate a conversation about religion with the folks around them in real life.
And I’d bet another dollar that you would self identify as an evangelical Christian.
Do you invite people to church, and/or to your faith?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelism

“In Christianity, *Evangelism* is the commitment to or act of publicly preaching of the Gospel with the intention of spreading the message and teachings of Jesus Christ.”

So is there a tiny part of you that knows better and is looking for a confirmation?

And as far as getting a “different one”-
Some of us wouldn’t trade rational thinking for a 2000 year old superstition with donkeys talking and dead men walking.

*


----------



## hummerpoo (Jul 2, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> How do we know he was saved or not saved? Part of the “judging” is realizing that we don’t decide saved and not saved or place one in or out of eternal salvation either.
> 
> We only know what it takes for any, whoever believes that they know the heart and mind of another man has only fooled themselves.
> 
> What Isreal is saying below speaks volumes.





Israel said:


> You say
> 
> 
> Only you imply no mercy for the Hindu.


If this were to be acknowledged, more than half the arguments here would go away, and those that remain might become acceptably civil.

I wonder how that would effect the entertainment value?


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Jul 2, 2018)

matt79brown said:


> Religion is all about dealing with the after life.


This is certainly the most popular misconception.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 2, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> No let’s stay on topic. Your issue is injustice with who’s left out out of the book of life and who’s added.



It’s the same topic. What happens to those not in this book of life? The scripture I posted answers that. How does one get in this book according to your religion? I also posted the answer to that. Does the Hindu deserve to burn forever for the crime of having the wrong belief which is in large part a result of where they were born which they had no control over? If they don’t and that is what they get then it is unjust. If they do and that is what they get then it is just but not merciful. Does Dahmer deserve to go to heaven in spite of the life he lived? If no yet he does then he has received mercy but not justice. This is what the Christian doctrine of salvation amounts to. The Jews who rejected the divinity of Jesus after  being gassed in a concentration camp face an eternity of being roasted over and over again. Their Nazi murderer who sees the error of his ways and repents to Jesus just before going to the gallows receives eternal bliss. Believe it is just if you can. Call it mercy if you must. But it cannot be both.


----------



## hummerpoo (Jul 2, 2018)

The Gospel
The One True God fulfills His just imperatives for His chosen people in their stead.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 2, 2018)

You guys have been trying to tip toe around the implications of this theology. Why? Maybe for the same reason the southern baptists here lament many christian denominations recently trying to change this doctrine. It’s not morally defensible and you know it.

“However, the belief that Jesus is the exclusive mediator between God and humanity has been the teaching in all of christiandom throughout church history. It is only in the last century that mainline denominations have forsaken this foundational truth of the Christian faith. And now many of them -- and their secular fellow-travelers -- are offended that Baptists won't join them in the process of reinventing their beliefs.”


----------



## WaltL1 (Jul 2, 2018)

> matt79brown said:
> Religion is all about dealing with the after life.





Miguel Cervantes said:


> This is certainly the most popular misconception.


I was wondering if one of you guys were going to pick up on the implications of that statement 
Although for matt79 (and others) it may certainly be true.


----------



## ambush80 (Jul 2, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> You guys have been trying to tip toe around the implications of this theology. Why? Maybe for the same reason the southern baptists here lament many christian denominations recently trying to change this doctrine. It’s not morally defensible and you know it.
> 
> “However, the belief that Jesus is the exclusive mediator between God and humanity has been the teaching in all of christiandom throughout church history. It is only in the last century that mainline denominations have forsaken this foundational truth of the Christian faith. And now many of them -- and their secular fellow-travelers -- are offended that Baptists won't join them in the process of reinventing their beliefs.”




Kicking and screaming.

That's how they come to modernity.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 2, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Kicking and screaming.
> 
> That's how they come to modernity.



Yep. They don’t believe in evolution but they believe in a religion that evolves.


----------



## WaltL1 (Jul 2, 2018)

ky55 said:


> This is the A/A/A forum. It’s here for discussions of different beliefs, and no beliefs.
> I’d bet a dollar against a donut hole that most, if not all, of the A/A’s here never initiate a conversation about religion with the folks around them in real life.
> And I’d bet another dollar that you would self identify as an evangelical Christian.
> Do you invite people to church, and/or to your faith?
> ...





> I’d bet a dollar against a donut hole that most, if not all, of the A/A’s here never initiate a conversation about religion with the folks around them in real life.


Ive been in a number of actual face to face conversations with Christians who just assumed my beliefs were the same as theirs and unless specifically asked I didn't tell, just let them talk.
Oh the things I have heard


----------



## Israel (Jul 2, 2018)

I've seen this posted many times.

*“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. *
*Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. *
*Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? *
*Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”*
*Epicurus*


That God is both willing and able (being of _all ability _to perform His will)... a man may not find consideration of this unfruitful:

*Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? *


Putting one's faithful and precious son_ up _in exchange for a rebellious horde of _beloved enemies_, being yet identified by some as heinous, macabre, ridiculous...and most decidedly...evil...only shows that that man is entirely un-self aware and ill equipped to answer one way or the other the first question above.
He has no entrance at all into the second part with which he claims is his right preoccupation by "knowing" evil.

The man _feigns_ at being puzzled by evil, provoked by the presence of evil, so indignant that he is found in its presence to a righteous demand for answer...thinking as he does...evil is "out there"...in his beholding. (obviously if it is "out there"...it cannot be "_in here_".)

But..._we are _beloved enemies. And some are being won to being "friendlies".
And of those being taught how perfectly right (though exceedingly full of suffering it is) that one...who loves...cannot_ withhold anything_ from their beloved. One who loves...in all ability...is especially "equipped" to give far beyond in love...and further still...than any man could either consent to...or comprehend. It is _all of right_...for love to give all...and what is most precious...to itself, for the sake of the beloved. This...is all that evil...is not.

But yeah...man got his first calculation wrong...so all that follows is according to his already skewed math. But...his bad calculation is not being held against him. His topsy turviness...is not beyond remedy...by One of all ability, and will to save...what He loves.

And...He didn't "lose" Jesus in the exchange...though He surely endured in Him all that Jesus suffered in humiliation, spurning, ridicule and vilification...from beloved...enemies. Love is willing to lose all of apparent dignity...so that the true dignity of it (once totally foreign to man) might be made plain.

He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Some are feigning...they don't _want everything_.

As though they were not created for it...the having.

(That's OK...get everything you think you hope for...and see if desire...disappears)


----------



## hummerpoo (Jul 2, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> You guys have been trying to tip toe around the implications of this theology.


It seems to me that the same things that you reject are also being rejected by the "you guys".  What you refer to as "tip toeing" is bringing to light those aspects of the theology which you ignore.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 2, 2018)

The puzzle is not why man are capable of evil. The puzzle is introduced when you bring a party into the picture who you claim is both capable and willing to eliminate evil yet chooses not to. Which is to say evil exists by the choice of a party which you call good. That is the puzzle. That men are capable of both good and evil in a world absent a supreme authority is no puzzle at all. This is exactly what such a world would look like.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 2, 2018)

Israel said:


> I've seen this posted many times.
> 
> *“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. *
> *Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. *
> ...


According to how the fable is written, this god did not exchange his son, sacrifice his son or do anything that was anything but a grand magic trick slight of hand.
This god (if Jesus was just the physical manifestation of this gods spirit of the Trinity as said in here) did nothing but send himself to carry out a win-win plan that involved He/Himself.
He didn't lose a son. He sent himself solely to be reunited with himself to sit at the right hand of himself and spend eternity in the presence of himself.
He "gave" the people a face to use on the billboard in his believe in me or suffer for eternity campaign. 
Knock Knock
Who's there?
It's Jesus, let me in.
Why would I let you in?
To avoid what I am going to do to you if you don't let me in!

The fact is these gods were only as jealous as the writers who invented them. As they saw people going away from the religions they created they needed to sweeten the soap opera plot. Threats really help.

But, I cannot help to notice that the very people who lived among and supposedly witnessed the supposed acts of this god did not believe in him. They didn't jump on the bandwagon then so the writers had to reinvent the stories later in the hopes that people buy it long after.


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 2, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> It’s the same topic. What happens to those not in this book of life? The scripture I posted answers that. How does one get in this book according to your religion? I also posted the answer to that. Does the Hindu deserve to burn forever for the crime of having the wrong belief which is in large part a result of where they were born which they had no control over? If they don’t and that is what they get then it is unjust. If they do and that is what they get then it is just but not merciful. Does Dahmer deserve to go to heaven in spite of the life he lived? If no yet he does then he has received mercy but not justice. This is what the Christian doctrine of salvation amounts to. The Jews who rejected the divinity of Jesus after  being gassed in a concentration camp face an eternity of being roasted over and over again. Their Nazi murderer who sees the error of his ways and repents to Jesus just before going to the gallows receives eternal bliss. Believe it is just if you can. Call it mercy if you must. But it cannot be both.


That’s not what you pointed out. You said there was no mercy for the Hindu. You haven’t explained that yet.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 2, 2018)

bullethead said:


> But, I cannot help to notice that the very people who lived among and supposedly witnessed the supposed acts of this god did not believe in him. They didn't jump on the bandwagon then so the writers had to reinvent the stories later in the hopes that people buy it long after.



^Good point.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 2, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> That’s not what you pointed out. You said there was no mercy for the Hindu. You haven’t explained that yet.



Yes I have. In detail. In the post you just quoted.


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 2, 2018)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> This is certainly the most popular misconception.


Sadly but true.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 2, 2018)

I wonder how many Christians would like to model our own system of justice after that of their religion? One in which reward and punishment are handed out based not on what a man does but on what a man thinks.


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 2, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Yes I have. In detail. In the post you just quoted.


Go back to the Cross. “Forgive them for they know not what they do”. 

Only man says that ignorance of the law is no excuse. 

God made this more fair and just than man has made for himself. 

Now, back to the original issue, no mercy for the Hindu. Explaining the book of life and what keeps you out or gets you in has nothing to do with the no mercy claim. 

I will be more specific, what grounds are you basing no mercy on before you even get to the book of life?


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 2, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> I wonder how many Christians would like to model our own system of justice after that of their religion? One in which reward and punishment are handed out based not on what a man does but on what a man thinks.


You might want to study more about how a man is judged, and then see if this is what you really meant to say


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 2, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Go back to the Cross. “Forgive them for they know not what they do”.
> 
> Only man says that ignorance of the law is no excuse.
> 
> ...



What does the Christian base the claim of mercy on if not salvation from the eternal fire they claim every human deserves? You want to keep playing this game we can. But it looks like you’re going with ignorance is no excuse for the Hindu so it sounds like you’re saying they deserve eternal fire. Believe that if you can. I can not.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 2, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> You might want to study more about how a man is judged, and then see if this is what you really meant to say



You might want to go back to post 66 and read the professions of salvation by faith made by your own brethren.


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 2, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> You might want to go back to post 66 and read the professions of salvation by faith made by your own brethren.




Lets see what your #66 has to say............Ok "professions of salvation".............
And that explains your no mercy / justice........how? We are on the subject of "judging".



atlashunter said:


> Mercy and grace for Dahmer. No mercy for the Hindu. Justice? No sir.


In your haste to make this a Christian problem, you went from this ^^^^^^^


atlashunter said:


> Revelation 20
> 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire..............................One in which reward wonder how many would like to


To this ^^^^^^

Another hint, if you know for sure which one made it and which one didn`t, you have just placed yourself right up there with God, knowing the heart and mind of man.  






atlashunter said:


> I wonder how many Christians would like to model our own system of justice after that of their religion? One in which reward and punishment are handed out based not on what a man does but on what a man thinks.



And this ^^^^^^
To further attempt to make this a Christian problem, and you were even given a hint to study how man is judged...........only needing to back up just a few scriptures to verse 12. "I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books"

Are you still sure that is what you meant to say


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 2, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> What does the Christian base the claim of mercy on if not salvation from the eternal fire they claim every human deserves? You want to keep playing this game we can. But it looks like you’re going with ignorance is no excuse for the Hindu so it sounds like you’re saying they deserve eternal fire. Believe that if you can. I can not.


I`m not sure how you reach some of the conclusions that you do, unless it is a game to you. Are you even reading? 

"Ignorance is no excuse for the Hindu" is NOT what I said. And no way could it even sound like it.




Spotlite said:


> Go back to the Cross. “*Forgive them for* *they know not what they do*”.
> 
> *Only man says *that *ignorance of the law is no excuse.*
> 
> ...


I honestly believe that you have so much disdain for Christianity that you don't even pay attention to what you are saying. The above post and the below post are pretty convincing of that.


atlashunter said:


> I wonder how many Christians would like to model our own system of justice after that of their religion? One in which reward and punishment are handed out based not on what a man does but on what a man thinks.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 2, 2018)

Judgment of works is pointless if the consequences are not based on those works but on faith ie a personally held belief.

Let me break this down into the simplest of terms for you.

1. All who are not found in the book of life are destined to burn regardless of what kind of life they lived.

True or false?

2. The only means of salvation from this fate is through faith in Jesus and acceptance of him as lord and savior.

True or false?

If both of these statements are true as the Bible claims them to be then the Hindu who by definition is not a Christian is doomed and bound for eternal fire. There is no mercy for them in that case. Only eternal torment and suffering.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 2, 2018)

Spot,

What denomination are you in? I’m beginning to get the impression you’re part of one of those that the southern baptists were complaining about.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 2, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> What does the Christian base the claim of mercy on if not salvation from the eternal fire they claim every human deserves?


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 2, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Judgment of works is pointless if the consequences are not based on those works but on faith ie a personally held belief.
> 
> Let me break this down into the simplest of terms for you.
> 
> ...


Ok, you can make your complaints about the system when it’s your time 

The Hindu is your own judgement, definition or not, you know nothing about his life and his final moments. None of us do. I’m not going there on deciding his fate based on anything.

If a Christian made the case you’re making by saying the Hindu is doomed, you’d been all over it about judging. The point I’ve been trying to make to you is the Bible is specific about what it takes, that’s established. It says the unrighteousness won’t make it, doesn’t say the Hindu won’t or can’t make it. Only you implied that. It’s up to the Hindu.

You’re guilty of your own accusations by doing so. You’ve labeled him as unrighteousness.


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 2, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Spot,
> 
> What denomination are you in? I’m beginning to get the impression you’re part of one of those that the southern baptists were complaining about.


Wouldn’t be the first time you falsely perceived something


----------



## ambush80 (Jul 2, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Ok, you can make your complaints about the system when it’s your time
> 
> The Hindu is your own judgement, definition or not, you know nothing about his life and his final moments. None of us do. I’m not going there on deciding his fate based on anything.
> 
> ...



Does the Bible say that those who don't declare Christ is Lord will go to He11?

Is declaring that Christ is lord the only way to get to Heaven?


----------



## matt79brown (Jul 2, 2018)

NO I am not evangelical nor do I invite folks to church nor do I promote some denomination. Maybe A/A's really have no belief in a god of any kind and I am presumptuous to think they secretly really do. I just have a hard time understanding why you would dedicate such effort into arguing against ''fairy tales'', ''nonsense'', ''make belief'' and ''superstitions''. Maybe a deep feeling of rejection by a loved one who you feel condemns you for your unbelief? So you address the subject via the internet to blow off steam and better understand believers? Is your purpose to ''enlighten'' the misled? Why such passion for something you deem as completely useless? Are lives being wasted and shattered by folks trying to follow Jesus and your trying to save them from heartache and misery? Whats the unwritten A/A's mission statement? I'm just trying to better understand this war, of which I have no enemy in.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 2, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Ok, you can make your complaints about the system when it’s your time
> 
> The Hindu is your own judgement, definition or not, you know nothing about his life and his final moments. None of us do. I’m not going there on deciding his fate based on anything.
> 
> ...



Not my judgment. Yours as a Christian. It’s simply the inescapable logic of we all deserve to burn and Jesus is the only way out of it. You don’t deny either of the simple precepts of your religion although in this light you’ve also not been all that eager to proclaim them. I don’t blame you for that but don’t think that your continual ignoring and dodging of my questions has gone unnoticed. Christianity makes claims about the afterlife as well as how to determine ones destination in the afterlife. You can’t claim that Jesus is the only way as the Bible repeatedly does and then claim ignorance about what determines ones fate in the afterlife. And you know that bit about the unrighteous not making it is a half truth. It also says that all have sinned and fallen short and the only remedy is Christ. So were does that leave the Hindu in the afterlife? In a place you are bending over backwards to avoid saying. It’s not my system or judgment. It’s yours.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 2, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Wouldn’t be the first time you falsely perceived something



So which denomination are you in?


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 2, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Judgment of works is pointless if the consequences are not based on those works but on faith ie a personally held belief.
> 
> Let me break this down into the simplest of terms for you.
> 
> ...



No comment that actually addresses the point now that it’s been spelled out.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 2, 2018)

matt79brown said:


> NO I am not evangelical nor do I invite folks to church nor do I promote some denomination.



Do you speak in tongues?


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Jul 2, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Not my judgment. Yours as a Christian.


Somebody just slipped.


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 2, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Not my judgment. Yours as a Christian. It’s simply the inescapable logic of we all deserve to burn and Jesus is the only way out of it. You don’t deny either of the simple precepts of your religion although in this light you’ve also not been all that eager to proclaim them. I don’t blame you for that but don’t think that your continual ignoring and dodging of my questions has gone unnoticed. Christianity makes claims about the afterlife as well as how to determine ones destination in the afterlife. You can’t claim that Jesus is the only way as the Bible repeatedly does and then claim ignorance about what determines ones fate in the afterlife. And you know that bit about the unrighteous not making it is a half truth. It also says that all have sinned and fallen short and the only remedy is Christ. So were does that leave the Hindu in the afterlife? In a place you are bending over backwards to avoid saying. It’s not my system or judgment. It’s yours.


If you’d back up a little, I believe you made the judgement call that there’s no mercy for the Hindu. Everything else has been nothing but smoke in the air from you to go down one cow trail to another to keep from explaining how you know his heart and mind with certainty. You’ve been yacking in circles and I’m not following you down those trails. 


I’m not denying what the Bible says about what it takes. Never have. It’s plain and to the point. It doesn’t say the Hindu can’t get mercy, you did. That’s what you were asked to explain. Nothing else. 

If you want to keep beating this horse to the ground to go around your judgement of a Hindu and what you think is fair and isn’t, you go right ahead.


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 2, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> So which denomination are you in?


Non-atheist


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## atlashunter (Jul 2, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> If you’d back up a little, I believe you made the judgement call that there’s no mercy for the Hindu. Everything else has been nothing but smoke in the air from you to go down one cow trail to another to keep from explaining how you know his heart and mind with certainty. You’ve been yacking in circles and I’m not following you down those trails.
> 
> 
> I’m not denying what the Bible says about what it takes. Never have. It’s plain and to the point. It doesn’t say the Hindu can’t get mercy, you did. That’s what you were asked to explain. Nothing else.
> ...





1. All who are not found in the book of life are destined to burn regardless of what kind of life they lived.

True or false?

2. The only means of salvation from this fate is through faith in Jesus and acceptance of him as lord and savior.

True or false? 



I don't make either of those claims. Your own religion does. Those claims have implications for the hindu.


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## Spotlite (Jul 2, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> No comment that actually addresses the point now that it’s been spelled out.


Spelled out? 
Go find anyplace in the Bible that spells out Hindu cant and only a Christian can. Specifically those words.



atlashunter said:


> Hindu who by definition is not a Christian is doomed and bound for eternal fire.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 2, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Does the Bible say that those who don't declare Christ is Lord will go to He11?
> 
> Is declaring that Christ is lord the only way to get to Heaven?


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 2, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> 1. All who are not found in the book of life are destined to burn regardless of what kind of life they lived.
> 
> True or false?
> 
> ...


Those “claims” have implications for ANY who don't accept Jesus, period. 

Not Hindu, not Chinese, not Dahmer or anyone else. Just plain and simply put, “those” that do not accept Jesus. You’ve known that. So stop using that to cover for you saying the Hindu can’t. You’re the only one that’s implied that, not the Bible and not the Christian that you’re accusing. 

A better answer for you would have been “assuming the Hindu doesn’t accept Jesus”......and then base your assumptions on what scriptures say instead of you making the call and then pointing to scripture like it’s scriotures fault. 

The Hindu has the same opportunity that you do. No more, no less. We believe that God can and will move on the heart of every soul, we don’t eliminate any of them by what they’re labeled as.


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## matt79brown (Jul 2, 2018)

No denomination. No tongue speaking. Again what motivation is there for an A/A to combat another's believe in Christ?


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## atlashunter (Jul 2, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Those “claims” have implications for ANY who don't accept Jesus, period.
> 
> Not Hindu, not Chinese, not Dahmer or anyone else. Just plain and simply put, “those” that do not accept Jesus. You’ve known that. So stop using that to cover for you saying the Hindu can’t. You’re the only one that’s implied that, not the Bible and not the Christian that you’re accusing.
> 
> ...



If they accepted christ then they wouldn't be a hindu they would be a christian. That's why I said earlier that by definition we weren't talking about a christian. And yes the claims apply to all and not just hindus. I never suggested otherwise. In fact I pointed that out with the scripture from Revelation. Maybe you missed it the multiple times it was brought up. The hindu was just one of many examples. Glad you finally acknowledge the implications.


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## ky55 (Jul 2, 2018)

matt79brown said:


> No denomination. No tongue speaking. Again what motivation is there for an A/A to combat another's believe in Christ?



Again...
This is an A/A/A discussion forum. It is here for the discussion of beliefs that sometimes differ from yours. 
What motivation is there for you to proselytize for Christ here, when so many of the members here disagree with your beliefs?

*


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## matt79brown (Jul 2, 2018)

I'm not proselytizing. Don't believe in it. Only trying to learn whats going on. Again the question has been skirted. I understand what the forum is. And most of the members upstairs disagree with my beliefs as well. I'm not pushing my beliefs on anyone. I have asked this question in multiple ways, on different threads, in person to Atheist and no one has ever given a reason why they are so adamant against someone believing in Jesus. It's not that they gave a reason but I just rejected it, no one has answered it! Go back through the archives! If I make multiple points, then someone will touch one of the issues but completely avoid giving a reason for their strong stance. I'm not talking scientific or theological reasons for a certain stance. I AM ASKING WHY DOES THE A/A FIND IT NECESSARY TO TEACH AGAINST A BELIEF IN JESUS? WHY IS IT SO IMPORTANT? WHAT IS IT THAT MOTIVATES YOU? IT'S NOT A TRICK/TRAP QUESTION. Ambush 80, Walt 1, Bullethead..... somebody..... tell me and I'll get off your forum never to return!


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## ambush80 (Jul 2, 2018)

matt79brown said:


> I'm not proselytizing. Don't believe in it. Only trying to learn whats going on. Again the question has been skirted. I understand what the forum is. And most of the members upstairs disagree with my beliefs as well. I'm not pushing my beliefs on anyone. I have asked this question in multiple ways, on different threads, in person to Atheist and no one has ever given a reason why they are so adamant against someone believing in Jesus. It's not that they gave a reason but I just rejected it, no one has answered it! Go back through the archives! If I make multiple points, then someone will touch one of the issues but completely avoid giving a reason for their strong stance. I'm not talking scientific or theological reasons for a certain stance. I AM ASKING WHY DOES THE A/A FIND IT NECESSARY TO TEACH AGAINST A BELIEF IN JESUS? WHY IS IT SO IMPORTANT? WHAT IS IT THAT MOTIVATES YOU? IT'S NOT A TRICK/TRAP QUESTION. Ambush 80, Walt 1, Bullethead..... somebody..... tell me and I'll get off your forum never to return!



I think all religions are dangerous because they require their adherents to believe in things without proof (miracle claims, supernatural occurrences).  It indicates to me that a person is capable of dismissing good evidence for the sake of their superstitions. I'll argue against that at every opportunity I get.  I guess you could say that I'm trying to make the world a better place.


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## Spotlite (Jul 3, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> If they accepted christ then they wouldn't be a hindu they would be a christian. That's why I said earlier that by definition we weren't talking about a christian. And yes the claims apply to all and not just hindus. I never suggested otherwise. In fact I pointed that out with the scripture from Revelation. Maybe you missed it the multiple times it was brought up. The hindu was just one of many examples. Glad you finally acknowledge the implications.



Ok, overall that sounds better. On a side note..........I know you like definitions. Neither of those are in the Bible.

But for kicks and grins............do you know who Ishu was in Hinduism? And Isa Ibn Maryam in Islam?

Hinduism is very diverse, but even in Hinduism "some" believe Ishu was born in cowshed, visited by 3 holy men, performed miracles, walked on the water, spoke a sermon on the mount, sent by God, sent on a mission from god, murdered and reincarnated.........and is considered as an avatar. An avatar is the incarnation of a deity on earth, Avatars are associated with Vishnu "the preserver", one of the members of the Hindu "Great Trinity". 

Isa Ibn Maryam is considered a messenger of God, born of the virgin Mary, raised into heaven by God..........although not the greatest prophet......that would be Mohammed for them, but still a prophet of God?


After you get the Christians set straight, any plans for other countries? Seriously think about it, they are all sort of moving here. Hindus wont be too bad, they at least show mutual respect to others beliefs.......but depending on which law we get, Islam could be a piece of work 

(you might need us after all )


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## WaltL1 (Jul 3, 2018)

matt79brown said:


> I'm not proselytizing. Don't believe in it. Only trying to learn whats going on. Again the question has been skirted. I understand what the forum is. And most of the members upstairs disagree with my beliefs as well. I'm not pushing my beliefs on anyone. I have asked this question in multiple ways, on different threads, in person to Atheist and no one has ever given a reason why they are so adamant against someone believing in Jesus. It's not that they gave a reason but I just rejected it, no one has answered it! Go back through the archives! If I make multiple points, then someone will touch one of the issues but completely avoid giving a reason for their strong stance. I'm not talking scientific or theological reasons for a certain stance. I AM ASKING WHY DOES THE A/A FIND IT NECESSARY TO TEACH AGAINST A BELIEF IN JESUS? WHY IS IT SO IMPORTANT? WHAT IS IT THAT MOTIVATES YOU? IT'S NOT A TRICK/TRAP QUESTION. Ambush 80, Walt 1, Bullethead..... somebody..... tell me and I'll get off your forum never to return!


1st -
Why would you get off the forum never to return regardless of how we answer your question? If we wanted to discuss/debate/talk to ourselves we would be asking for our own forum. For me personally, if this was just an A/A forum instead of a A/A/A forum, I would have 0 interest in participating.
Soooo.... in no particular order of importance -
Since this is the answer you are really looking for I'll go ahead and start with....
1. I don't like the "holier than thou" attitude that is taught by most religions. Because we are here in the US it just so happens its Christians/Christianity that I have experienced that attitude from.
2. I enjoy the mental debate. However I have no desire to debate something unimportant like Ford vs Chevy.
3. Since this a voluntary participation forum, I am assuming the Christians here are willing to debate their beliefs. I don't have any interest in forcing or interjecting myself into places (upstairs for example) where my views aren't wanted.
4. I used to be a Christian and left for certain reasons. Discussing/debating here, in general, either confirms or denies that those reasons were valid.
5. I have come to believe that "belief in a god" basically boils down to emotion. By debating/discussing it Im looking to see if you guys are using emotion or facts as the basis for your belief.
I guess in general/big picture that kind of covers it.
More importantly these are NOT the reasons why I discuss/debate religion -
1. I think Christians are stupid.
2. To change anybody's mind.


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## WaltL1 (Jul 3, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Ok, overall that sounds better. On a side note..........I know you like definitions. Neither of those are in the Bible.
> 
> But for kicks and grins............do you know who Ishu was in Hinduism? And Isa Ibn Maryam in Islam?
> 
> ...


And you might need A/As


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## Israel (Jul 3, 2018)

Jesus answered and said to him, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'

Young's Literal Translation

"Above" there is frequently translated "again" (I think many already know this) "Reign" there, frequently "Kingdom".

To me it's very interesting that (a) man's first response in seeking to understand Jesus Christ is
Nicodemus answered and said to him, 'How are these things able to happen?'

How. How? How does this work, how does that take place, how does that _mechanism_...work?

The whole of the exchange remains "new" to me...Jesus first reproving the man whose seat as teacher of Israel, does not begin to grasp this. How does what "claims" to be the _chosen of God_, or one who _claims_ to be of those so chosen, not know?

But that first response...still speaks..."How?".

Many of my brothers already know of man's great propensity to control. Most have had it revealed to whatever extent...in themselves. They_ know it is ubiquitous_ for they pretty much find it quite "ready" in themselves. And they have not met any of the earth that do not, likewise, give away their propensity toward it...to control.

If the mechanism can be understood...deconstructed, reverse engineered (so to speak)...then "it" can be controlled...and made to work...for man, or _a man._ If the "how" gets answered, the blueprint revealed...control is then surrendered to the inquisitor.

God sent His Son into the world, His true and faithful Son to call His rebellious (not faithful...at all) children home. They don't do well, don't fare well, don't thrive...in the world. They've _done much_ to cover their illness, weakness, sickness, woundedness, trying not to appear (much as a wounded animal hides itself when injured) from the predators. Some have even been remarkably resourceful in seeking to make a home in the place foreign to them...so much so, that they accept it now, as home. They've learned...to a great extent...to navigate here. They have adopted and so adapted to the _rule of competition _that they now, in almost all ways...have allowed the image of their Father...extinguished in themselves. And they have learned...controlling..._to control_...in the arena of competition (that has so marred their own souls to a complete loss or remembrance) yields some temporary benefit and respite.

All have, in one way or another...allowed themselves, even put themselves...up on the block _for sale. And even though in a place where knowing is now so unknown..."There's something...wrong"._
There's something...wrong. Because they can't even find what "right" is, anymore. And that's as wrong as only wrong can be. To its limit. To an ordained...limit.

The truth speaks...and remains unrecognized. The right speaks...and is scorned. The light speaks and men scatter into the darkness of their conspirings for comfort. And...rightly...they fear.

The uncontrollable One makes His appearance...to beat the fear of all they _have wrongly feared_ out of them. And they are compelled to recognize His Rod. And they don't "get together" to agree (or even...agree to agree) to recognize His Rod, they are rounded up...by it.


And they know...have learned, are beginning to learn, that Rod is not in their hands to control. And that's the beginning of re-minder of a thing so totally lost. What right...looks like. What Daddy's arm...looks like.

The foundation of God stands sure, having this seal, the Lord knows those who are His.

And they are gathered to Him.


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## atlashunter (Jul 3, 2018)

Spot, those weren’t definitions. They are claims that can be found in just about any denominations doctrinal statement along with scriptural backing. See Romans 3 for starters. If you disagree with them I’m not the one you should be telling they aren’t biblical. I don’t hold them as personal beliefs and didn’t put the relevant scriptures in the Bible. Maybe you can start a new and improved version of Christianity where Hindus don’t get thrown in a lake of fire for being born in the wrong culture.


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## bullethead (Jul 3, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Not my judgment. Yours as a Christian. It’s simply the inescapable logic of we all deserve to burn and Jesus is the only way out of it. You don’t deny either of the simple precepts of your religion although in this light you’ve also not been all that eager to proclaim them. I don’t blame you for that but don’t think that your continual ignoring and dodging of my questions has gone unnoticed. Christianity makes claims about the afterlife as well as how to determine ones destination in the afterlife. You can’t claim that Jesus is the only way as the Bible repeatedly does and then claim ignorance about what determines ones fate in the afterlife. And you know that bit about the unrighteous not making it is a half truth. It also says that all have sinned and fallen short and the only remedy is Christ. So were does that leave the Hindu in the afterlife? In a place you are bending over backwards to avoid saying. It’s not my system or judgment. It’s yours.


According to the story god sent Jesus to die for our sins and save us.
Since Jesus died for our sins and saved us shouldn't we all be covered?

Since the wages of sin is death, and Jesus saved the world from sin because his father loved us SO much, we should all live forever in the afterlife.

If I can't get into The Heavens Gated Afterlife Community on the welfare program, I will be just as content to live eternity just as I am now working, spending time with family and friends and doing the same things that make me happy.


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## bullethead (Jul 3, 2018)

matt79brown said:


> I'm not proselytizing. Don't believe in it. Only trying to learn whats going on. Again the question has been skirted. I understand what the forum is. And most of the members upstairs disagree with my beliefs as well. I'm not pushing my beliefs on anyone. I have asked this question in multiple ways, on different threads, in person to Atheist and no one has ever given a reason why they are so adamant against someone believing in Jesus. It's not that they gave a reason but I just rejected it, no one has answered it! Go back through the archives! If I make multiple points, then someone will touch one of the issues but completely avoid giving a reason for their strong stance. I'm not talking scientific or theological reasons for a certain stance. I AM ASKING WHY DOES THE A/A FIND IT NECESSARY TO TEACH AGAINST A BELIEF IN JESUS? WHY IS IT SO IMPORTANT? WHAT IS IT THAT MOTIVATES YOU? IT'S NOT A TRICK/TRAP QUESTION. Ambush 80, Walt 1, Bullethead..... somebody..... tell me and I'll get off your forum never to return!


That question has been asked and answered by me at least 20 times in these threads and definitely once as recently as a week or two ago.


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## atlashunter (Jul 3, 2018)

bullethead said:


> That question has been asked and answered by me at least 20 times in these threads and definitely once as recently as a week or two ago.



Let’s see what happens now that he has his answer.


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## bullethead (Jul 3, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> 1st -
> Why would you get off the forum never to return regardless of how we answer your question? If we wanted to discuss/debate/talk to ourselves we would be asking for our own forum. For me personally, if this was just an A/A forum instead of a A/A/A forum, I would have 0 interest in participating.
> Soooo.... in no particular order of importance -
> Since this is the answer you are really looking for I'll go ahead and start with....
> ...


Dang near word for word for me also.
Plus, maybe I missed something. Maybe someone will come along and show me a piece or two of the puzzle that history, logic and my mind have not been able to back up.


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## Spotlite (Jul 3, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> And you might need A/As


well.......we were considered to be atheist at one time...............we ruled them all out except one 

But yea........no doubt..........if and when something like comes........we will need one another.


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## Spotlite (Jul 3, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Spot, those weren’t definitions. They are claims that can be found in just about any denominations doctrinal statement along with scriptural backing. See Romans 3 for starters. If you disagree with them I’m not the one you should be telling they aren’t biblical. I don’t hold them as personal beliefs and didn’t put the relevant scriptures in the Bible. Maybe you can start a new and improved version of Christianity where Hindus don’t get thrown in a lake of fire for being born in the wrong culture.


Let me clarify.............the term Christian and Hindu are man-made terms to identify / label people / groups. 

Christian was first used to identify the Disciples by "others". 

The Bible sees believers and non believers, not Hindu, Dahmer, Methodist, Baptist, Catholic, Muslim, etc. 

You may not view your statement that the Hindu doesn't receive mercy as a judging call, but the Christians have rejected that idea. 

The Christian does not stake the claim that the Hindu has no mercy, neither should you. If anyone receives no mercy, it is because they did not chose.............

The Christian has scripture for their belief that every man is born a measure of faith and the contents of the law are written in their hearts and conscience. We see every man as having an opportunity. The version of Christianity that I and many others are familiar with doesn't send the Hindu to the lake of fire, it sends the non believer, and that could be the person sitting next to me on the Church pew.


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## ambush80 (Jul 3, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Spot, those weren’t definitions. They are claims that can be found in just about any denominations doctrinal statement along with scriptural backing. See Romans 3 for starters. If you disagree with them I’m not the one you should be telling they aren’t biblical. I don’t hold them as personal beliefs and didn’t put the relevant scriptures in the Bible. Maybe you can start a new and improved version of Christianity where Hindus don’t get thrown in a lake of fire for being born in the wrong culture.




It's coming.  Most likely lastly in the South East.


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## atlashunter (Jul 3, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Let me clarify.............the term Christian and Hindu are man-made terms to identify / label people / groups.
> 
> Christian was first used to identify the Disciples by "others".
> 
> ...



That’s little solace to the poor man who believed the religion he was indoctrinated to believe from childhood, tried to live the best life he could, and spends an eternity in flames as a consequence. I’ve heard that line before about the contents of the law being written on the heart. But that isn’t the path to salvation prescribed by Christianity is it? If it were then the great commission would be a pointless waste of time.

The responses in this discussion have been interesting, especially yours.


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## ky55 (Jul 3, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> That’s little solace to the poor man who believed the religion he was indoctrinated to believe from childhood, tried to live the best life he could, and spends an eternity in flames as a consequence.



Yep. 
But I guess that statement could apply to any religion. 


*


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## atlashunter (Jul 3, 2018)

ky55 said:


> Yep.
> But I guess that statement could apply to any religion.
> 
> 
> *



Yep. Christians included.


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## hummerpoo (Jul 3, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Let me clarify.............the term Christian and Hindu are man-made terms to identify / label people / groups.
> 
> Christian was first used to identify the Disciples by "others".
> 
> ...


My personal theological position could be classed as generally Reformed (note that I did not say that I hold to Reformed Theology).  And I feel quite comfortable saying that your primary point:


> The Bible sees believers and non believers, not Hindu, Dahmer, Methodist, Baptist, Catholic, Muslim, etc.
> 
> You may not view your statement that the Hindu doesn't receive mercy as a judging call, but the Christians have rejected that idea.
> 
> The Christian does not stake the claim that the Hindu has no mercy, neither should you.


cuts across soteriological lines without change of any kind.  With God there are only two: believer and nonbeliever; ethnicity, gender, social status, financial status, intellectual facility, religious affiliation, and on and on, are of no consequence whatsoever.


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## atlashunter (Jul 3, 2018)

Yes your honor I raped and murdered but I know you already had someone else pay the price for my crime and I believe this and accept your offer of salvation.

Judge: I see! Well it’s a good thing you believe this else I would have to sentence you along with that shoplifter who didn’t believe to an eternity of burning in a lake of fire! But being as you believe the consequences of your actions have already been paid through the murder of a blameless man you’re free to go. Oh and here is an unlimited supply of tickets to Disneyland. Enjoy!


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## NCHillbilly (Jul 3, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Let me clarify.............the term Christian and Hindu are man-made terms to identify / label people / groups.
> 
> Christian was first used to identify the Disciples by "others".
> 
> ...


The Hindu by bible definition is not a believer in Christ. He is a believer in his own gods. The Bible says to have no other gods before me, and that those who don't call upon the name of Jesus will go to Hades.

Now, you say that the Hindu has the same chance to accept Christ. Why on earth would he change from the religion that his family has practiced for thousands of years, and believes just as firmly as you believe in yours? If someone came over here and tried to make you stop being a Christian and start being a Hindu, I very seriously doubt if you would listen to him at all. The Hindu is no different. American Christians can deny it all they want, but if they had been born in India, they would be devout Hindus, too. For the same reasons that they are now Christians.


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## WaltL1 (Jul 3, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> The Hindu by bible definition is not a believer in Christ. He is a believer in his own gods. The Bible says to have no other gods before me, and that those who don't call upon the name of Jesus will go to Hades.
> 
> Now, you say that the Hindu has the same chance to accept Christ. Why on earth would he change from the religion that his family has practiced for thousands of years, and believes just as firmly as you believe in yours? If someone came over here and tried to make you stop being a Christian and start being a Hindu, I very seriously doubt if you would listen to him at all. The Hindu is no different. American Christians can deny it all they want, but if they had been born in India, they would be devout Hindus, too. For the same reasons that they are now Christians.


Spot can correct me if Im wrong but I think his point is......
While all that may be true, the Hindu has the opportunity to be "saved" if he so chooses. Doesn't matter why he would or wouldn't, Christianity gives him the opportunity if he so chooses.


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## Spotlite (Jul 3, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> That’s little solace to the poor man who believed the religion he was indoctrinated to believe from childhood, tried to live the best life he could, and spends an eternity in flames as a consequence. I’ve heard that line before about the contents of the law being written on the heart. But that isn’t the path to salvation prescribed by Christianity is it? If it were then the great commission would be a pointless waste of time.
> 
> The responses in this discussion have been interesting, especially yours.



Do you know what "that line" means? Do you know what law it is? Do you know the elements and purposes of it......."that which may be known of God"? Do you really understand or at least have memorized the path to salvation, the great commission, whosever will, anything about "I have planted, Apollos watered".......? How does it all connect? 

"Naturally" it is all in mans heart and conscience............. all men.

Can`t remember who it was, but I think one of the A/A`s on this forum made a statement similar to "that feeling or draw" when replying to red neck richie. He may speak up to confirm or correct. I could be wrong too.     

Early into this, the below was asked of you by another poster..........



> *If there wasn't some tiny part of you that knows better...... *


And I used this below


Spotlite said:


> And now you know why a diversion is needed - to take away the focus from what is really going on and shift it to make it a Christian problem.............
> 
> _"Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"_
> 
> _"For when the Gentiles which have not the Law, do by nature the things contained in the Law.................. Which shew the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience.............."_



That was asked of you for a reason.....you have created a diversion trying use greed and injustice to now the path of salvation to make all of this a Christian problem................for what?

Even further pointed out to you by someone else was the below


> It seems to me that the same things that you reject are also being rejected by the "you guys".  What you refer to as "tip toeing" is bringing to light those aspects of the theology which you ignore.



I am not being sarcastic with this, the reason some responses have been interesting is because just maybe.........you stepped into deep water with a subject that you are not as familiar with as you thought. Your defense would have been a lot different if you know the material.


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 3, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Spot can correct me if Im wrong but I think his point is......
> While all that may be true, the Hindu has the opportunity to be "saved" if he so chooses. Doesn't matter why he would or wouldn't, Christianity gives him the opportunity if he so chooses.


You are correct Sir. See below.


hummerpoo said:


> cuts across soteriological lines without change of any kind.  With God there are only two: believer and nonbeliever; ethnicity, gender, social status, financial status, intellectual facility, religious affiliation, and on and on, are of no consequence whatsoever.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 3, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> My personal theological position could be classed as generally Reformed (note that I did not say that I hold to Reformed Theology).  And I feel quite comfortable saying that your primary point:
> 
> cuts across soteriological lines without change of any kind.  With God there are only two: believer and nonbeliever; ethnicity, gender, social status, financial status, intellectual facility, religious affiliation, and on and on, are of no consequence whatsoever.





NCHillbilly said:


> The Hindu by bible definition is not a believer in Christ. He is a believer in his own gods. The Bible says to have no other gods before me, and that those who don't call upon the name of Jesus will go to Hades.
> 
> Now, you say that the Hindu has the same chance to accept Christ. Why on earth would he change from the religion that his family has practiced for thousands of years, and believes just as firmly as you believe in yours? If someone came over here and tried to make you stop being a Christian and start being a Hindu, I very seriously doubt if you would listen to him at all. The Hindu is no different. American Christians can deny it all they want, but if they had been born in India, they would be devout Hindus, too. For the same reasons that they are now Christians.


"Anything the mind can conceive is possible"~ Doug Henning 

Each believer seems to have a different interpretation of what the bible says based off of whatever their needs are and however their minds have to shape it to fit those needs.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Jul 3, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Spot can correct me if Im wrong but I think his point is......
> While all that may be true, the Hindu has the opportunity to be "saved" if he so chooses. Doesn't matter why he would or wouldn't, Christianity gives him the opportunity if he so chooses.


Yes, that was my interpretation also. Just pointing out the absurdity of it. Spot has an "opportunity" to convert to Wicca, also-but I doubt if he will.


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## Spotlite (Jul 3, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> The Hindu by bible definition is not a believer in Christ. He is a believer in his own gods. The Bible says to have no other gods before me, and that those who don't call upon the name of Jesus will go to Hades.
> 
> Now, you say that the Hindu has the same chance to accept Christ. Why on earth would he change from the religion that his family has practiced for thousands of years, and believes just as firmly as you believe in yours? If someone came over here and tried to make you stop being a Christian and start being a Hindu, I very seriously doubt if you would listen to him at all. The Hindu is no different. American Christians can deny it all they want, but if they had been born in India, they would be devout Hindus, too. For the same reasons that they are now Christians.



See some previous post about every man given a choice.  

Not sure why anyone would think this though 'tried to make you stop being a Christian"......or another way of looking at it, "tried to stop them from being a Hindu". None of that has anything to do with a man have a choice in the matter. We believe every man will be given an opportunity. How all that happens, up to God. We just don't write the Hindu off or exempt him.

I understand your point and realize there are culture influences that are heavy in every nation. I believe it was even pointed out using the Cross as an example "forgive them for they know not what they do"...........not sure about you, but to me that shows mercy to a man who just came to the knowledge of Jesus, which is the topic of the current derailed thread..........its just what we do 

And I am not all that convinced that we know as much about the Hindu as we claim either. Judging all according to those that love their cow in order to say they worship other gods seems to be more judgmental than the Bible. Even in Islam, Allah is the Arabic word for God in Abrahamic religions.   

What we call a hammer they may call a nail................



Spotlite said:


> Hinduism is very diverse, but even in Hinduism "some" believe Ishu was born in cowshed, visited by 3 holy men, performed miracles, walked on the water, spoke a sermon on the mount, sent by God, sent on a mission from god, murdered and reincarnated.........and is considered as an avatar. An avatar is the incarnation of a deity on earth, Avatars are associated with Vishnu "the preserver", one of the members of the Hindu "Great Trinity".
> 
> Isa Ibn Maryam is considered a messenger of God, born of the virgin Mary, raised into heaven by God..........although not the greatest prophet......that would be Mohammed for them, but still a prophet of God?


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## Spotlite (Jul 3, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> Yes, that was my interpretation also. Just pointing out the absurdity of it. Spot has an "opportunity" to convert to Wicca, also-but I doubt if he will.


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 3, 2018)

bullethead said:


> "Anything the mind can conceive is possible"~ Doug Henning
> 
> Each believer seems to have a different interpretation of what the bible says based off of whatever their needs are and however their minds have to shape it to fit those needs.


Don't leave out the non-believer.........


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## WaltL1 (Jul 3, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> Yes, that was my interpretation also. Just pointing out the absurdity of it. Spot has an "opportunity" to convert to Wicca, also-but I doubt if he will.


It may be absurd but that's the price of admission


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Jul 3, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> 1st -
> Why would you get off the forum never to return regardless of how we answer your question? If we wanted to discuss/debate/talk to ourselves we would be asking for our own forum. For me personally, if this was just an A/A forum instead of a A/A/A forum, I would have 0 interest in participating.
> Soooo.... in no particular order of importance -
> Since this is the answer you are really looking for I'll go ahead and start with....
> 1. I don't like the "holier than thou" attitude that is taught by most religions. Because we are here in the US it just so happens its Christians/Christianity that I have experienced that attitude from.


I don't believe anybody likes it. Curiously though, it seems to flourish among some believers as well as some non-believers.


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## NCHillbilly (Jul 3, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> And I am not all that convinced that we know as much about the Hindu as we claim either. Judging all according to those that love their cow in order to say they worship other gods seems to be more judgmental than the Bible. Even in Islam, Allah is the Arabic word for God in Abrahamic religions.
> 
> What we call a hammer they may call a nail................



I would guess that the Hindus know who they worship better than we do. They worship over a dozen main deities, none of whom bear much resemblance to the god of Abraham. We were created in his image according to the Bible, and I haven't seen any of us walking around with eight arms and an elephant head.


I would go along with the assertion that all religions are worshiping their interpretation of the same god, but Christianity and the Bible are very strict as to who God is, what he commands, and there is no room left in the Bible for other religions. Jesus or burn is what it says in a nutshell. And it doesn't describe Jesus as a blue woman with four arms and an elephant head wearing a necklace of human skulls and riding a giant snake.


----------



## WaltL1 (Jul 3, 2018)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> I don't believe anybody likes it. Curiously though, it seems to flourish among some believers as well as some non-believers.


I agree however there is a difference at least as far as Atheism goes.... it doesnt teach/require/suggest that the Atheist think anything about anybody else. Any "holier than thou" attitude is strictly on the individual Atheist.
And believe me there are some Atheists who are among the LAST people in the world I would want to spend 1 second of my life around.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 3, 2018)

I never said the Hindu didn’t have the chance to convert. Once they are dead that’s a moot point. Imagine you close your eyes in death only to wake up and find yourself being tortured with no recourse because you happened to be indoctrinated to believe the wrong religion. Yes you could have converted but we know the likelihood of you overcoming childhood indoctrination and choosing the right religion is slim to none. Just? Perhaps in the eyes of that religion. I doubt you would agree under the circumstances and I doubt you would call such treatment merciful. In any case not on par with the mercy shown the believers who were no better than you.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Jul 3, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I agree however there is a difference at least as far as Atheism goes.... it doesnt teach/require/suggest that the Atheist think anything about anybody else. Any "holier than thou" attitude is strictly on the individual Atheist.
> And believe me there are some Atheists who are among the LAST people in the world I would want to spend 1 second of my life around.


Well, in terms of doctrine, Christianity doesn't teach it either. Some pastors at some churches? probably, but the religion itself, not a bit. In fact everything Jesus taught was contrary to that behavior.

I suppose the take away here is, the Christian had someone teach him wrongly if he subscribes to this behavior. The Atheist chose this path willingly without influence from someone else.


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## Spotlite (Jul 3, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> I would guess that the Hindus know who they worship better than we do. They worship over a dozen main deities, none of whom bear much resemblance to the god of Abraham. We were created in his image according to the Bible, and I haven't seen any of us walking around with eight arms and an elephant head.
> 
> 
> I would go along with the assertion that all religions are worshiping their interpretation of the same god, but Christianity and the Bible are very strict as to who God is, what he commands, and there is no room left in the Bible for other religions. Jesus or burn is what it says in a nutshell. And it doesn't describe Jesus as a blue woman with four arms and an elephant head wearing a necklace of human skulls and riding a giant snake.


I do sort of like the idea of all those women that some of the muslims think are waiting though. You really would need God to keep that many happy!


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## Spotlite (Jul 3, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I agree however there is a difference at least as far as Atheism goes.... it doesnt teach/require/suggest that the Atheist think anything about anybody else. Any "holier than thou" attitude is strictly on the individual Atheist.
> And believe me there are some Atheists who are among the LAST people in the world I would want to spend 1 second of my life around.


I think the holier than thou runs deeper than Christianity. Certain people in all walks of life think or believe that they are on a higher step than others. I think what I see as snobby is probably what you see as holier than thou......maybe? At least that's what I call those that think they are holier than thou / snobby in a religious setting.

And on the same note, there are certain Christians I wouldn't hang out with.


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 3, 2018)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Well, in terms of doctrine, Christianity doesn't teach it either. Some pastors at some churches? probably, but the religion itself, not a bit. In fact everything Jesus taught was contrary to that behavior.
> 
> I suppose the take away here is, the Christian had someone teach him wrongly if he subscribes to this behavior. The Atheist chose this path willingly without influence from someone else.


Same here..........I have never heard of teaching what to think or believe about another person, denomination or religion.


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## WaltL1 (Jul 3, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I do sort of like the idea of all those women that some of the muslims think are waiting though. You really would need God to keep that many happy!


I can barely deal putting up with one 1 woman at a time sometimes.
12 of them sounds like my idea of he11


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 3, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I can barely deal putting up with one 1 woman at a time sometimes.
> 12 of them sounds like my idea of he11


I know for real. The first initial thought is "oh yeah" but after you think about eternity


----------



## WaltL1 (Jul 3, 2018)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Well, in terms of doctrine, Christianity doesn't teach it either. Some pastors at some churches? probably, but the religion itself, not a bit. In fact everything Jesus taught was contrary to that behavior.
> 
> I suppose the take away here is, the Christian had someone teach him wrongly if he subscribes to this behavior. The Atheist chose this path willingly without influence from someone else.


Oh I think we could debate that one.
Holier than thou is pretty much exactly the foundation of Christianity. That whole Im going to heaven and you are going to he11 thing.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Jul 3, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Oh I think we could debate that one.
> Holier than thou is pretty much exactly the foundation of Christianity. That whole Im going to heaven and you are going to he11 thing.


Anybody that proclaims without a doubt that they are going to heaven and pretends to have the power to judge any other human as to their eventual post life destination is most assuredly going to be in for a real surprise in the end.


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 3, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> I never said the Hindu didn’t have the chance to convert. Once they are dead that’s a moot point. Imagine you close your eyes in death only to wake up and find yourself being tortured with no recourse because you happened to be indoctrinated to believe the wrong religion. Yes you could have converted but we know the likelihood of you overcoming childhood indoctrination and choosing the right religion is slim to none. Just? Perhaps in the eyes of that religion. I doubt you would agree under the circumstances and I doubt you would call such treatment merciful. In any case not on par with the mercy shown the believers who were no better than you.


Fair enough. I have misread before. Maybe I was overlooking trying to view it from another angle


----------



## hummerpoo (Jul 3, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> ...Holier than thou is pretty much exactly the foundation of Christianity...


 That is no different than saying that Pol Pot and Stalin are exemplary Atheists.


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## WaltL1 (Jul 3, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> That is no different than saying that Pol Pot and Stalin are exemplary Atheists.


There is no such thing as an exemplary Atheist.
Atheists by definition don't believe in gods. The end.
Atheism doesn't have acceptable/unacceptable behavior guidelines.
There are exemplary people who may or may not be Atheists.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jul 3, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> There is no such thing as an exemplary Atheist.
> Atheists by definition don't believe in gods. The end.
> Atheism doesn't have acceptable/unacceptable behavior guidelines.
> There are exemplary people who may or may not be Atheists.


AKA, there are bad apples in every bushel. I reckon we should form a coalition and collectively start tossing (figuratively speaking)  the bad apples then.


----------



## WaltL1 (Jul 3, 2018)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Anybody that proclaims without a doubt that they are going to heaven and pretends to have the power to judge any other human as to their eventual post life destination is most assuredly going to be in for a real surprise in the end.


Different subject. That's ^ about Christians not Christianity.
Christianity says you are either with us or you go to he11.
We are holier than thou. In fact you are not holy at all so God made a special place just for unholy folks like you.
Come on this one isn't even debatable.


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## WaltL1 (Jul 3, 2018)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> AKA, there are bad apples in every bushel. I reckon we should form a coalition and collectively start tossing (figuratively speaking)  the bad apples then.


Yes bad apples (by our judgement) in every bushel probably describes it perfectly.


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## hummerpoo (Jul 3, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Different subject. That's ^ about Christians not Christianity.
> Christianity says you are either with us or you go to he11.
> We are holier than thou. In fact you are not holy at all so God made a special place just for unholy folks like you.
> Come on this one isn't even debatable.


I an truly sorry that someone or something did this to you.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jul 3, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Yes bad apples (by our judgement) in every bushel probably describes it perfectly.


I see what you did there. So you equate attempting to create an amenable co-existence with self righteously judging the destination of ones afterlife?


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## WaltL1 (Jul 3, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> I an truly sorry that someone or something did this to you.


Did something to me?
Sometimes I wonder if you guys wear panties and bras because you cant seem to get around your emotions 
I simply stated the truth.


----------



## WaltL1 (Jul 3, 2018)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> I see what you did there. So you equate attempting to create an amenable co-existence with self righteously judging the destination of ones afterlife?


I don't judge anybodys after life.
I don't believe there is one.
That's not judging "somebody" that's judging "something".


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jul 3, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I don't judge anybodys after life.
> I don't believe there is one.
> That's not judging "somebody" that's judging "something".


Not what I was referring to, too, two.


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## hummerpoo (Jul 3, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Did something to me?
> Sometimes I wonder if you guys wear panties and bras because you cant seem to get around your emotions
> I simply stated the truth.


I read this to Sweetie.
She said, "Walt doesn't know you or women very well does he."


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 3, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> That is no different than saying that Pol Pot and Stalin are exemplary Atheists.



Christians don’t claim righteousness through works. In fact Romans makes clear that righteousness can’t be achieved through works. But Romans does claim righteousness through faith. Which is to say, we believers have a righteousness that is exclusive to us and trumps the righteous works of nonbelievers.


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## hummerpoo (Jul 3, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Christians don’t claim righteousness through works. In fact Romans makes clear that righteousness can’t be achieved through works. But Romans does claim righteousness through faith. Which is to say, we believers have a righteousness that is exclusive to us and trumps the righteous works of nonbelievers.


Scripture teaches that no righteousness can be claimed by anyone, believer or nonbeliever, but God alone.


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## atlashunter (Jul 3, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> Scripture teaches that no righteousness can be claimed by anyone, believer or nonbeliever, but God alone.



Romans 3
*21* But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 

*22* *This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.* There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 

*23* for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 

*24* and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 

*25* God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 

*26* he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. 

*27* Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 

*28* For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jul 3, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Romans 3
> *21* But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
> 
> *22* *This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.* There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,
> ...


I don't suppose that it so easily eludes you that this scripture is talking about Jesus' Rightiousness, not a Christians "Self-Righteous" behaviors. I know you are more intelligent than to miss that elephant in the room.


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## atlashunter (Jul 3, 2018)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> I don't suppose that it so easily eludes you that this scripture is talking about Jesus' Rightiousness, not a Christians "Self-Righteous" behaviors. I know you are more intelligent than to miss that elephant in the room.



I didn't say it was a self righteousness. At least not claimed to be. My god gives me a righteousness through my faith which is unavailable to those who don't believe and is superior to any righteousness through works. It's arrogance with a veneer of piety.


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## hummerpoo (Jul 3, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Romans 3
> *21* But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
> 
> *22* *This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.* There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,
> ...



21 But now apart from the Law _the_ righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even _the_ righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. _This was_ to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, _I say_, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 [r]For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works [s]of the Law.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jul 3, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> I didn't say it was a self righteousness. At least not claimed to be. My god gives me a righteousness through my faith which is unavailable to those who don't believe and is superior to any righteousness through works. It's arrogance with a veneer of piety.


Conceding the possibility of your narrow interpretation; What does the Atheist that has no ill advised pastor or mentor leading them to this behavior blame his self-righteous arrogant attitude on, other than himself? Given that, does this not make him equally as guilty as the pastor or the mentor,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,or in a stretch, that scripture that he vehemently denies and couldn't possibly believe in? Just curious.


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## hummerpoo (Jul 3, 2018)

Is anyone else having trouble with curser control, or do I need to trash this computer?


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## WaltL1 (Jul 3, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> I read this to Sweetie.
> She said, "Walt doesn't know you or women very well does he."


I don't know who Sweetie is but I wish her/him/it a happy 4th 
And "someone or something doing something to me" has emotion as its foundation.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 3, 2018)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Conceding the possibility of your narrow interpretation; What does the Atheist that has no ill advised pastor or mentor leading them to this behavior blame his self-righteous arrogant attitude on, other than himself? Given that, does this not make him equally as guilty as the pastor or the mentor,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,or in a stretch, that scripture that he vehemently denies and couldn't possibly believe in? Just curious.



Not at all. The atheist has no invisible friend to blame or give credit for his own words and deeds.


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## WaltL1 (Jul 3, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> Is anyone else having trouble with curser control, or do I need to trash this computer?


Yep and I was just considering reloading Windows etc.
Now Im guessing it has to do with the forum upgrade.


----------



## hummerpoo (Jul 3, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I don't know who Sweetie is but I wish her/him/it a happy 4th
> And "someone or something doing something to me" has emotion as its foundation.


Sweetie (pet name) is a gift from God, and my wife.
Back at you, as always, on good wishes.


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## hummerpoo (Jul 3, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Yep and I was just considering reloading Windows etc.
> Now Im guessing it has to do with the forum upgrade.


I had the problem a couple of times prior to the upgrade.  It fixed itself (or it might have been the judiciously apply ball bat)


----------



## WaltL1 (Jul 3, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> I had the problem a couple of times prior to the upgrade.  It fixed itself (or it might have been the judiciously apply ball bat)


A ball bat was my first thought cuz its really making me mad. Cant move the cursor to highlight/cut/copy/paste etc.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jul 3, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> A ball bat was my first thought cuz its really making me mad. Cant move the cursor to highlight/cut/copy/paste etc.


I haven't had that issue yet. Dell did a big update with a bios rewrite and I did have to go in and reset my mouse, but that's as close to a mouse / cursor function issue I've had. Not experiencing the issues y'all are describing.


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## hummerpoo (Jul 3, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> A ball bat was my first thought cuz its really making me mad. Cant move the cursor to highlight/cut/copy/paste etc.


Ditto on the "making me mad"; I spit my false teeth out twice before I got #185 done.


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## WaltL1 (Jul 3, 2018)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> I haven't had that issue yet. Dell did a big update with a bios rewrite and I did have to go in and reset my mouse, but that's as close to a mouse / cursor function issue I've had. Not experiencing the issues y'all are describing.


I actually had the same problem right after the forum upgrade. Did a back to factory original thingie and it fixed it but now its back.
For a split second I thought "hey maybe God is screwing with me"


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Jul 3, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I actually had the same problem right after the forum upgrade. Did a back to factory original thingie and it fixed it but now its back.
> For a split second I thought "hey maybe God is screwing with me"


----------



## WaltL1 (Jul 3, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> Ditto on the "making me mad"; I spit my false teeth out twice before I got #185 done.



Fortunately now that Im older Ive learned its too expensive to smash everything that makes me mad.


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## hummerpoo (Jul 3, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I actually had the same problem right after the forum upgrade. Did a back to factory original thingie and it fixed it but now its back.
> For a split second I thought "hey maybe God is screwing with me"


Wait a minute Walt, think about the conversations you and I have had the last couple of weeks; and we are the ones having trouble.  You might be on to something.


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## WaltL1 (Jul 3, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> Wait a minute Walt, think about the conversations you and I have had the last couple of weeks; and we are the ones having trouble.  You might be on to something.


They say he works in mysterious ways...….


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 3, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> Is anyone else having trouble with curser control, or do I need to trash this computer?


It’s not your computer. I sometimes have issues with my laptop and phone on here.


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 3, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> I didn't say it was a self righteousness. At least not claimed to be. My god gives me a righteousness through my faith which is unavailable to those who don't believe and is superior to any righteousness through works. It's arrogance with a veneer of piety.


Arrogant is to be proud, over bearing, unpleasant. 

Don’t t you think that goes against the idea of knocking doors and inviting people to join you on Sunday? Most I know offer to pick them up, buy their gas, feed them, etc. Far from arrogant. 

Not sure where you’re running into those at, but if you would, let the rest of us know so we can stay shy of them.


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## bullethead (Jul 3, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> That is no different than saying that Pol Pot and Stalin are exemplary Atheists.


Atheism is not a club or a religion. Is is not a group one aspires to be in. It is just this simple, a person who does not believe in gods. It is not a lifestyle.
You are trying to equate those two guys in with others who do not believe in gods when in actuality the things in common start and stop with Do Not Believe in Gods. None of the other things they did or stood for has anything to do with another atheist.

Its like saying Pol Pot and Stalin were exemplary Falcons Fans.
Or
Trying to link Charles Manson with everyone else who happens to not believe in Santa Claus.

Christians are different in that they are supposed to follow Christ and exemplify Christ.  They have a role model to follow and a book to use as a guide and system to go by.


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## Spotlite (Jul 4, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Christianity says you are either with us or you go to he11.
> We are holier than thou. In fact you are not holy at all so God made a special place just for unholy folks like you.
> Come on this one isn't even debatable.





WaltL1 said:


> Oh I think we could debate that one.
> Holier than thou is pretty much exactly the foundation of Christianity. That whole Im going to heaven and you are going to he11 thing.


My personal observation is "depends". 

I know Pastors that have asked folks to find a new church over it. The haughty spirit and the tactic of "using the hot place" are frowned upon. The rule of thumb is "you want them to want what you have, not force them to take it". That requires you to live a life that is attractive to them. Sort of pokes holes in the holier than thou thing.

Assuming that you are not talking about individuals or a church that points to individuals or groups............... is society any different? Based on the legal system, we say the offender has a place for him and he deserves jail and we don't because we didn't break the law. 

We know the unrighteous and the offender have reservations made..........we just don`t know who they are.


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## Israel (Jul 4, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I agree however there is a difference at least as far as Atheism goes.... it doesnt teach/require/suggest that the Atheist think anything about anybody else. Any "holier than thou" attitude is strictly on the individual Atheist.
> And believe me there are some Atheists who are among the LAST people in the world I would want to spend 1 second of my life around.



I tend to think "holier" than thou, "smarter" than thou, "prettier" than thou, nicer than thou, richer than thou, more successful than thou, stronger than thou, "cooler" than thou, a better fisherman than thou, a better doctor, president, janitor, bricklayer, cook, rat catcher...and on and on...is not something reserved to any more _particular _than man...in general.

We all may be able to easily identify "holier" than thou...because the implication seems "I'm tighter with God"...(and who can top that!???)

Talk about_ name dropping! Booyah!_

But the believer/disciple may learn how much he hurts no one but himself in this...competition.
There's a joke that circulates where I work...and I have not yet found a doc that doesn't get it. (Doctors are really smart people!)

"When you're at a party, how do you know which one is the neuro-surgeon?"


"Don't worry, he'll tell you"

badump bump.

The essence of it is there. Eventually...we find our pride can't be hidden.
Almost anything of self accomplishment...must come out, in some form or another. (And even the more clever amongst us, try as we might, may eventually find a stumbling at it)

We "let slip" our imagined betterness in some way.

The cross is a great equalizer. A great leveler. Nobody gets "good" at it. It may not be in sight of all, at all times...some may even yet deny its efficacy. Nevertheless...it never fails. We can find it in reluctance to accept it, we can find it in boast of thinking we know, or bare it "well" (watch out, saint!) we can find it in endless sermons "to others" that _they need _to take up _their cross. _

Some may yet see it as a challenge_._ Something they can meet in their own betterness that will display their own victory over it.
But Jesus never says "C'mon now, Bubba, show me what you can do"
(OK, Jesus, hold my beer and watch this)

God extends to man fellowship with Him...being in His Son...in all ways like him.
"Since the children were partakers of flesh and blood, He likewise..."

But, just as Jesus _does not challenge_ man to believe, and to take up his cross, He never denies..."this is the way..." of following. And he preached it long before the day we got to see what He was talking about. A thing He was always...doing.

The thing that senses challenge, cannot help but rise to challenge, vainly hopes to excel in challenge over others...is dealt with perfectly there, in that following. That thing cannot endure it, cannot get past it, cannot find any resource there _of itself, _to prevail.

_True man_...is all, and  only...what comes through.

Is this _hard_ to believe? No harder than the believing that _every other man_ must be false...but that we ourselves...and to ourselves...are _true_.

What is implicit in the following of the very One who made plain those He had come for, is something a man may learn not to deny...for in denying this, and these (His words) words...or _seeking to_ through_ a facade, he eventually discovers..._he is denying the very Lord, who has come for him.

The healthy have no need of a physician, the righteous have no need of call to repentance and salvation..."good" people...have no need of Jesus.

By saying one is "with Christ", is beginning to know Christ,  is learning of Jesus Christ...as disciple...is that implicit_ truth. "_I am not the_ whole man"._

Our testimony is not to ourselves, for the truth of it is, one is with Him...(can indeed _only be with_ Him) as testimony to His wholeness, and _trueness_, and my following (or any man's) is _manifest declaration_ of my own weakness, infirmity, need, and that something is _very wrong, and provoking need_...about _me. _A man _cannot need_ the wholeness found in Jesus Christ...otherwise. And necessity has a particular "keyness" to God...who answers _not _from it...but responds to it.

I'd be liar and fool to say I have not walked as a man who once "made room for Jesus Christ". It _never ceases_ to amaze me with how little...God is willing to work...to show hope. The smoking flax and bruised reed he does not despise. A man...even only barely able to hear that knock...may open the door...not to _prevent _what will happen to him if he doesn't...but in manifest admission, I am indeed very alone here in this house...and _need_ company.

Those who yet believe themselves complete and full in themselves, in need...of nothing...whole...and perfectly ordered to themselves... well...

But for the man who knows...my house is sick with lies and sham, and letting this man in to help will only let all the neighbors know how dreadful I admit myself to be...well...that's where they will meet the only _true choice_ they have ever been given.

yeah...it's been made "safe" to come clean.


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## atlashunter (Jul 4, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> My personal observation is "depends".
> 
> I know Pastors that have asked folks to find a new church over it. The haughty spirit and the tactic of "using the hot place" are frowned upon. The rule of thumb is "you want them to want what you have, not force them to take it". That requires you to live a life that is attractive to them. Sort of pokes holes in the holier than thou thing.
> 
> ...



It’s interesting to see the church evolve just within a few decades. Churches I grew up in were fire and brimstone and they didn’t shy away from it. They wanted to strike some fear in folks. I’m sure those are still around but now I see more softening of the hot place with terms like “spiritual death”. Just don’t seem to find as many references to the threat of burning as we used to.


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## hummerpoo (Jul 4, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Atheism is not a club or a religion. Is is not a group one aspires to be in. It is just this simple, a person who does not believe in gods. It is not a lifestyle.



Back in the day, when I thought I was an Atheist (note the common use of the upper case "A" which has come into vogue; then not so much) that was more valid, however, observable evidence shows "that ship has sailed."




> You are trying to equate those two guys in with others who do not believe in gods when in actuality the things in common start and stop with Do Not Believe in Gods. None of the other things they did or stood for has anything to do with another atheist.
> 
> Its like saying Pol Pot and Stalin were exemplary Falcons Fans.
> Or
> Trying to link Charles Manson with everyone else who happens to not believe in Santa Claus.



No, you have it backwards.  That is the type of error which I said was contained in the statement to which I was responding.




> Christians are different in that they are supposed to follow Christ and exemplify Christ.  They have a role model to follow and a book to use as a guide and system to go by.



What you say is not inaccurate.  The complaint I have (my standing to have my complaint heard is for others to determine) is that, in this community, and some others,  those who are not of The Faith appear to search, with great diligence, for the abuse of, or misapplication of, that which you have summarized and apply that result to The Faith in general, with no discrimination of ,or for, those examples, or instances, which they disregarded as being inoffensive, or less offensive.   The accepted rule in many circles is "never judge a philosophy by its abuse" (a quote that has held up for 17 centuries).

It would be uncandid of me not to acknowledge that, within  the guidance to which you have pointed, there is very clear instruction which, if followed vigorously, would eliminate much of the abuse which I refer to above.  Sadly, those instructions are weakly applied or ignored.


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## bullethead (Jul 4, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> Back in the day, when I thought I was an Atheist (note the common use of the upper case "A" which has come into vogue; then not so much) that was more valid, however, observable evidence shows "that ship has sailed."


After fitting the "Does not believe in gods" definition, every individual is different. Where a person wants to take their disbelief views after that is on them and their actions do not define every Atheist nor include every Atheist in the group.






hummerpoo said:


> No, you have it backwards.  That is the type of error which I said was contained in the statement to which I was responding.


Yes, sorry. I re read and see that I misread. 
But, my answer wasn't bad had I not!! Lololololol!!!






hummerpoo said:


> What you say is not inaccurate.  The complaint I have (my standing to have my complaint heard is for others to determine) is that, in this community, and some others,  those who are not of The Faith appear to search, with great diligence, for the abuse of, or misapplication of, that which you have summarized and apply that result to The Faith in general, with no discrimination of ,or for, those examples, or instances, which they disregarded as being inoffensive, or less offensive.   The accepted rule in many circles is "never judge a philosophy by its abuse" (a quote that has held up for 17 centuries).
> 
> It would be uncandid of me not to acknowledge that, within  the guidance to which you have pointed, there is very clear instruction which, if followed vigorously, would eliminate much of the abuse which I refer to above.  Sadly, those instructions are weakly applied or ignored.



At least for me, I try to base my answers geared towards the people that I converse with in here(and from reading posts floors above) and have experience with outside of here.
 I will be the first to admit that there are extreme examples at each end of the spectrum(no matter the subject), unfortunately it is the majority middle that often gets lumped in with one or the other...often in the hopes to make a point somewhat right. I cannot say that I am immune to doing that myself.


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## Spotlite (Jul 4, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> It’s interesting to see the church evolve just within a few decades. Churches I grew up in were fire and brimstone and they didn’t shy away from it. They wanted to strike some fear in folks. I’m sure those are still around but now I see more softening of the hot place with terms like “spiritual death”. Just don’t seem to find as many references to the threat of burning as we used to.


I think the difference is when the subject is preached, taught or used in Bible study. 

Its still preached. You don’t knock doors with it, and you don’t conduct Bible studies with it until the individual is ready. Hence the “milk and meat” references.


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## atlashunter (Jul 4, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I think the difference is when the subject is preached, taught or used in Bible study.
> 
> Its still preached. You don’t knock doors with it, and you don’t conduct Bible studies with it until the individual is ready. Hence the “milk and meat” references.



That’s a fair point but it’s not just the message at the door that has been changing. Doctrine has also been changing hence the complaint I cited made by southern baptists about other mainline denominations. We see the current pope doing the same thing with the Catholic Church. It’s a hard sell and getting harder so the salesmen are adjusting the pitch.


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## Spotlite (Jul 4, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> That’s a fair point but it’s not just the message at the door that has been changing. Doctrine has also been changing hence the complaint I cited made by southern baptists about other mainline denominations. We see the current pope doing the same thing with the Catholic Church. It’s a hard sell and getting harder so the salesmen are adjusting the pitch.


Not denying that because it does happen in some churches. I know one church that changed their doctrine around some.....but I know their denomination didn`t. 

We recently picked up two families because of this, their church changed to an idea that the hot place was metaphor, but heaven isn't. To me that is just ridiculous, if one is a metaphor, both are, if one is real, both are. 

This is sort of related to bullets comment below. What one, two or 10 churches or even half of a denomination does, does not represent all of Christianity. The common denominator is they all believe, after that, each individual or group of individuals follow what they believe is the right path. I have no issues there until one starts condemning the other. Who is right?? That is where the arguments come in. For me, If I can back up what and why I believe what I do with scripture, I don't let that stuff concern me. I use it to confirm my faith. Just as with Hobbs about the 70AD doctrine, he can back his belief up with scripture regardless if I believe it or not. He knows the "whys" of what he believes. I have respect for that. But in discussion with him, I continue to confirm why I believe the way I do.





bullethead said:


> After fitting the "Does not believe in gods" definition, every individual is different. Where a person wants to take their disbelief views after that is on them and their actions do not define every Atheist nor include every Atheist in the group.


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## hummerpoo (Jul 4, 2018)

bullethead said:


> After fitting the "Does not believe in gods" definition, every individual is different. Where a person wants to take their disbelief views after that is on them and their actions do not define every Atheist nor include every Atheist in the group.



Whether a person sits on your side of the fence or the other side, they are seldom easily placed in a pigeon hole.




> Yes, sorry. I re read and see that I misread.
> But, my answer wasn't bad had I not!! Lololololol!!!



I will try to remember that there is no need to waste a perfectly good argument just because you have no question that it fits.






> At least for me, I try to base my answers geared towards the people that I converse with in here(and from reading posts floors above) and have experience with outside of here.
> I will be the first to admit that there are extreme examples at each end of the spectrum(no matter the subject), unfortunately it is the majority middle that often gets lumped in with one or the other...often in the hopes to make a point somewhat right. I cannot say that I am immune to doing that myself.


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## bullethead (Jul 4, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> Whether a person sits on your side of the fence or the other side, they are seldom easily placed in a pigeon hole.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey man I'm hitting the age where I need to carry a note in each front pocket. One says...check your other pocket.
I can't let a good answer go to waste... I may not remember it when I need it


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## hummerpoo (Jul 4, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Hey man I'm hitting the age where I need to carry a note in each front pocket. One says...check your other pocket.
> I can't let a good answer go to waste... I may not remember it when I need it


There is more to look forward to; you may find that you get up from the recliner, take two steps, then try to remember why you got up … but its always a good guess that you were headed for the bathroom.


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## Israel (Jul 5, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Oh I think we could debate that one.
> Holier than thou is pretty much exactly the foundation of Christianity. That whole Im going to heaven and you are going to he11 thing.




Who is the "you"...there? (To quote Hummerpoo)

If there be such a thing as "christianity" which would to my mind be the doctrine of Jesus Christ, it might easily be confused amongst the many "dogmas" promulgated, supposedly, in His name.
Thankfully the author reserves full right to His own work...and recognizes it, alone.

The foundation remains alone built upon the chief cornerstone, Jesus Christ.
And poor is the "christian" indeed, and poorer still his hearer (if follower) that does not understand the foundation surely includes (in Jesus Christ) the will to "prop up" by assuming the lesser position, than it is to "speak down to".

Of all things, I have certainly found no discipline so strict and relentlessly applied to itself, than experienced in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Though yet I fail miserably...I watch. I see brothers enabled by the Spirit, carrying the most essential and needful thing _for man,_ and_ share it..._apart from stain of self righteousness. This gives me great hope. In their preaching of the gospel...to one as I am.

I marvel at how one escapes the trap of being entrusted with what is of greatest necessity to their comrades, without themselves falling to the illusion "I must therefore be very very important, and all should listen...to me". They show me Jesus Christ, plainly. I am thankful for them, and salute them. I need...what they seem to carry, so effortlessly.

But I know this has come at great cost; at first seen by them, and then entered into, by them. And _I know_, this is Christ in them...doing for me...what I am unable to do of myself...that I may marvel, and believe.


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## WaltL1 (Jul 5, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> There is more to look forward to; you may find that you get up from the recliner, take two steps, then try to remember why you got up … but its always a good guess that you were headed for the bathroom.



I think most of the guys in here are still too young to fully grasp the truth in that.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jul 5, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I think most of the guys in here are still too young to fully grasp the truth in that.


Speak for yourself. I'll find a thread I want to respond to in here and click on reply only to realize I've forgotten what I wanted to say. They say getting old has it's perks. I'm still waiting to discover one of them.


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## WaltL1 (Jul 5, 2018)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Speak for yourself. I'll find a thread I want to respond to in here and click on reply only to realize I've forgotten what I wanted to say. They say getting old has it's perks. I'm still waiting to discover one of them.


Not sure if Im reading your post correctly but I promise you I wasn't including myself in the "too young to fully grasp it crowd"..
I know EXACTLY what he's talking about


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## Israel (Jul 5, 2018)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Speak for yourself. I'll find a thread I want to respond to in here and click on reply only to realize I've forgotten what I wanted to say. They say getting old has it's perks. I'm still waiting to discover one of them.



One is not feeling guilty at all in calling for a code 50 in Lowe's for some younger back to load the 80lb bags of concrete on to your truck...and at the other end to have your grandson meet you for the unloading. But I will admit...it is still a little unsettling when the code 50 is responded to by a girl of about 20.


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## hummerpoo (Jul 5, 2018)

Israel said:


> One is not feeling guilty at all in calling for a code 50 in Lowe's for some younger back to load the 80lb bags of concrete on to your truck...and at the other end to have your grandson meet you for the unloading. But I will admit...it is still a little unsettling when the code 50 is responded to by a girl of about 20.View attachment 934925


I had exactly that happen to me this spring when I went to Tractor Supply for 800 lbs. of pelletized lime.  You should have seen that young lady handle those bags that I later carefully dragged to the tailgate so that I could load directly into the spreader without lifting them.


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## Israel (Jul 5, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> I had exactly that happen to me this spring when I went to Tractor Supply for 800 lbs. of pelletized lime.  You should have seen that young lady handle those bags that I later carefully dragged to the tailgate so that I could load directly into the spreader without lifting them.




Yeah! You get very resourceful in calculating mass x distance x n (when n is the number of objects requiring handling)

I never knew inclined planes and I would become such good friends.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jul 5, 2018)

Israel said:


> One is not feeling guilty at all in calling for a code 50 in Lowe's for some younger back to load the 80lb bags of concrete on to your truck...and at the other end to have your grandson meet you for the unloading. But I will admit...it is still a little unsettling when the code 50 is responded to by a girl of about 20.View attachment 934925


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## 660griz (Jul 6, 2018)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Speak for yourself. I'll find a thread I want to respond to in here and click on reply only to realize I've forgotten what I wanted to say. They say getting old has it's perks. I'm still waiting to discover one of them.


Senior discount.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 7, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> There is more to look forward to; you may find that you get up from the recliner, take two steps, then try to remember why you got up … but its always a good guess that you were headed for the bathroom.



indeed - and better to be safe than sorry and head for the bathroom anyway before it's too late.


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## hummerpoo (Jul 7, 2018)

oldfella1962 said:


> indeed - and better to be safe than sorry and head for the bathroom anyway before it's too late.


I think we have heard from the voice of experience.


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