# Tecamonte buck thread



## Glenn (Sep 17, 2005)

Just reading some of the threads to the Tecamonte post in the Photography forum and I just have to ask this question.

How many of you would not hunt on that ranch for all the money in the world? 

The ranch basicly just breeds big deer and you might as well be shooting cattle in a pasture as they graze on lush green lettuce. Sorry fellas but I can't stand the image ranches like that puts out there in the public realm.


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## fussyray (Sep 17, 2005)

That is not hunting that is just killing, 90 o/o of hunting is the HUNT not the shot.  I will never get a deer like that, but ones I do get come from the woods not the supermarket!!


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## Throwback (Sep 17, 2005)

That is what QDM, horn lovers and trophy management leads to. 


T


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## Inatree (Sep 18, 2005)

I have vendors that I buy from offer me trips to these ranches every year, For some reason I am kinda offended by the offers.
I usually respond like the guys above. "Theres a difference between hunting and killing"or my favorite, "When I decide to shoot an animal in a pen you can take me to a prison and point out the child molester".


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## MoeBirds (Sep 19, 2005)

fussyray said:
			
		

> That is not hunting that is just killing, 90 o/o of hunting is the HUNT not the shot.  I will never get a deer like that, but ones I do get come from the woods not the supermarket!!




I agree  !!!



ps, hold down the _shift_ key and press the number 5.


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## Jim Thompson (Sep 19, 2005)

If it is in a fence, I will not hunt it


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## braintree (Sep 19, 2005)

Jim Thompson said:
			
		

> If it is in a fence, I will not hunt it



Couldn't agree more Jim


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## raghorn (Sep 19, 2005)

I'd rather see a hunter with a spike from a WMA that was earned the hard way than a 200" Tecomate buck. Although I may be impressed when I first see it, when I find out it came from intensely managed property like that I lose interest immediately. It just ain't natural to me.


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## Robk (Sep 19, 2005)

Antlers dont taste very good either...  dang tough on the teeth too.


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## Nicodemus (Sep 19, 2005)

Nope, there wouldn`t be any thrill or skill in it for me. Kinda like walkin` out in the pasture and shootin` a cow.


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## huntaholic (Sep 19, 2005)

*no way !*

I would rather get a little 8 pt with my bow that I found in the woods myself than a 150 class that some guide took me to, that is not hunting,


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## Timberman (Sep 20, 2005)

> I would rather get a little 8 pt with my bow that I found in the woods myself than a 150 class that some guide took me to, that is not hunting,



Once again, we're getting guided hunts confused with small acreage high fenced unethical no kill no pay type deals...nothing could be further from the truth. 

Those guys have the ways and means and the want to to do whatever it takes to produce the largest deer possible. To them high fence is designed to prevent outside influences from affecting the herd, not to make anything any easier, only to get their bucks into older age classes. I hear folks on here all time the blasting their neighbors for shooting little deer. Whether you got your neighbors involved and started passing little deer or put up a fence around your tract of the size they have to prevent mortality from the neighbors, you are basically doing the same thing. 

They are just taking things to the nth degree in the management of their herd, of which nearly all of us here do to some degree or another. If you knew those guys, you'd not be bashing them as we have here...


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## fussyray (Sep 20, 2005)

Jim Thompson said:
			
		

> If it is in a fence, I will not hunt it



Read the Quote


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## Craig Knight (Sep 20, 2005)

Jim Thompson said:
			
		

> If it is in a fence, I will not hunt it



 Yep I agree with that too, might as well be shootin' somebodies cattle or pigs in a catching lot.


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## raghorn (Sep 20, 2005)

Timberman said:
			
		

> Once again, we're getting guided hunts confused with small acreage high fenced unethical no kill no pay type deals...nothing could be further from the truth.
> 
> Those guys have the ways and means and the want to to do whatever it takes to produce the largest deer possible. To them high fence is designed to prevent outside influences from affecting the herd, not to make anything any easier, only to get their bucks into older age classes. I hear folks on here all time the blasting their neighbors for shooting little deer. Whether you got your neighbors involved and started passing little deer or put up a fence around your tract of the size they have to prevent mortality from the neighbors, you are basically doing the same thing.
> 
> They are just taking things to the nth degree in the management of their herd, of which nearly all of us here do to some degree or another. If you knew those guys, you'd not be bashing them as we have here...


Yes I would.........


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## Timberman (Sep 21, 2005)

> Yes I would.........



Why? They are operating within every legal law imposed upon them. They also are operating under an ethical and moral cloak that is every bit as valid as yours. The only reasons(and I've thought long and hard) I can think of for anyone to have anything negative to say about them would be envy and jealousy ... and we all know those are sins in the Bible...


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## Jim Thompson (Sep 21, 2005)

Timberman said:
			
		

> Why? They are operating within every legal law imposed upon them. They also are operating under an ethical and moral cloak that is every bit as valid as yours. The only reasons(and I've thought long and hard) I can think of for anyone to have anything negative to say about them would be envy and jealousy ... and we all know those are sins in the Bible...



Timber, just because it is legal does not mean we have to agree with it.  yeah I know there is a difference between 10,000 acres in a high fence and 700, but in my mind it is all still high fenced and something just aint right, so I would not hunt it.  Now I have no issue with them penning this big buck as a breeder.....but the bred deer should be on free range.

Also about the legal so its ok argument....so is abortion and folks rip that everyday.  I say this and I am not personally against abortion.

Jim


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## huntfish (Sep 21, 2005)

I don't believe El Tecomate is high fenced.  All deer are free ranging and animals have been entered into the Book.

Why does everyone assume that all the ranches in Texas are high fenced?   I've said it before, the main reason for the high fences in Texas are for the exotics.


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## Timberman (Sep 21, 2005)

Jim,

I never said you had to agree with anything. You should know I'm big on free thinking. I just don't like it when it turns into a berating contest til folks begin to be compared to vile scum just for doing something you disagree with...which is not what you do...by the way.   And who said ANYTHING about abortion...


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## Jim Thompson (Sep 21, 2005)

huntfish said:
			
		

> I don't believe El Tecomate is high fenced.  All deer are free ranging and animals have been entered into the Book.
> 
> Why does everyone assume that all the ranches in Texas are high fenced?   I've said it before, the main reason for the high fences in Texas are for the exotics.



if it is _not_ high fenced, then I would have no issue hunting there.  Kinda simple huh?


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## hunter rich (Sep 21, 2005)

Okay, let us say that it is not high fenced, but they still hunt them over feeders.  You can see the big tripod auotmatic timed feeders in the back ground most of the time.  Feeders or fences...I wont hunt 'em or should I say shoot them, because that aint huntin'


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## Jim Thompson (Sep 21, 2005)

hunter rich said:
			
		

> Okay, let us say that it is not high fenced, but they still hunt them over feeders.  You can see the big tripod auotmatic timed feeders in the back ground most of the time.  Feeders or fences...I wont hunt 'em or should I say shoot them, because that aint huntin'



good point, I wont do that either


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## SouthPaw Draw (Sep 21, 2005)

Whether you agree with this type hunting its all about the almighty dollar!! Look what these ranches are charging for these hunts and there are plenty of people waiting to pay to do this kind of hunting too. Would these ranches be in business if there wasen't a demand for big whitetails?


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## Ol' Red (Sep 21, 2005)

Even though it is not your kind of hunting, it is legal to take an animal in this fashion.  Would I hunt a high fenced operation? No.  Would I hunt near a feeder  or over corn....yeah.  The antis will use topics like this to divide us.  Even though you don't agree with it, this form of "hunting" is legal.  hunting is one of the largest industries in this national generating billions of dollars each year in the economy.  If these people are willing to pay 1000's of dollars to hunt a 200 class deer then fine.  It's their money.  They didn't ask anyone to help pay for the trip.  Like South Paw Draw said, it's about demand and supply.

-Macky


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## huntfish (Sep 21, 2005)

Heck, the antis don't even have to get involved about the baiting issue.  I've seen the enemy and it is us hunters.  Too much worrying about what the other is doing.    

Lighten up folks, you're hunting in Georgia, why do you care what is being done in Texas?  Initially this started out as a high fence operation.  I pointed out that it was not a high fence operation so the bickering now starts on the corn issue.  It is legal to hunt with bait in Texas.    

El Tecomate uses feeders but the majority of the supplement is spread using spreaders.  The majority of the bait and hunting at the ranch consists of FOOD PLOTS!  Anybody want to argue about that one to?  

As for hunting there, they have a very strict policy.  When you decide to harvest a deer, that deer is now the only deer you will be allowed to shoot even if you miss.

And no, I haven't hunted at this particular ranch but I have hunted at some excellent free ranging ranches in Texas and have friends that are game managers there.  They take their management serious to develop quality animals.  Looking at last years GON bucks of the week, most of this animals would be passed over or harvested as management bucks.


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## raghorn (Sep 21, 2005)

Timberman said:
			
		

> Why? They are operating within every legal law imposed upon them. They also are operating under an ethical and moral cloak that is every bit as valid as yours. The only reasons(and I've thought long and hard) I can think of for anyone to have anything negative to say about them would be envy and jealousy ... and we all know those are sins in the Bible...


I don't have anything against these folks personally, and I don't want to sound like a rabid elitist, but for me the time has come to say enough is enough. With the competition for the glory of taking a huge buck brings ,( and nobody can say it doesn't bring notoriety), things are getting out of hand. I just will not hunt where the land is being manipulated to grow the biggest deer possible for the ego's of the horn *****s. I know you can make the argument that any farm land is unnatural compared to virgin forrest but not to the same degree as the intensley managed properties. I would go as far as to wager that a lot of the super hunters would not be hunters if you took away their recognition, they would be involved in another sport.  I understand that you can't make statements like these without offending someone, and to them I apologize, but I make no apologies for what I believe, and I believe the competition to grow the biggest has been bad for our sport.


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## reylamb (Sep 21, 2005)

For the record, part of the Tecamote Ranch is high fenced, part is not.  The Heart Attack buck is most certainly in the high fenced area and is for breeding only, the deer is off limits to any and all hunters.


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## hunter rich (Sep 21, 2005)

huntfish said:
			
		

> Heck, the antis don't even have to get involved about the baiting issue.  I've seen the enemy and it is us hunters.  Too much worrying about what the other is doing.
> 
> Lighten up folks, you're hunting in Georgia, why do you care what is being done in Texas?



Heck, they are making everyone give up their guns in_____, what do you care? you don't live there.  

Come on, we have to abide by our own individual code of ethics and morals, and in this country we can say "Hey, I enjoy the same thing as you, but I don't like the way you do it."  

But if non-hunters from Texas think all hunters hunt behind fences and over feeders or corn piles then we have a problem.


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## huntfish (Sep 21, 2005)

hunter rich said:
			
		

> Heck, they are making everyone give up their guns in_____, what do you care? you don't live there.
> 
> Come on, we have to abide by our own individual code of ethics and morals, and in this country we can say "Hey, I enjoy the same thing as you, but I don't like the way you do it."
> 
> But if non-hunters from Texas think all hunters hunt behind fences and over feeders or corn piles then we have a problem.


I'll agree to that statement, but the fighting within Ga hunters over baiting is getting a little on the hard side.   It seems that the majority of this board assumes that Texas is just a big fence.   It's just not the case with the majority of Texas ranches.  

As for giving up guns,,,,Lets start in Texas.


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## Jim Thompson (Sep 22, 2005)

huntfish said:
			
		

> I'll agree to that statement, but the fighting within Ga hunters over baiting is getting a little on the hard side.   It seems that the majority of this board assumes that Texas is just a big fence.   It's just not the case with the majority of Texas ranches.
> 
> As for giving up guns,,,,Lets start in Texas.



this may be true, but the majority of advertising out of TX is from the high fenced operations, so we have a biased opinion every time we see something like that thread.

now saying that...I am hunting in TX this year on a non-fenced ranch and am sure we will love it.


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## hunter rich (Sep 22, 2005)

Jim Thompson said:
			
		

> now saying that...I am hunting in TX this year on a non-fenced ranch and am sure we will love it.



I believe that is called ***, just incase by some stroke of fate someone that knows of the ranch you are going to hunt happens to hear about this thread...


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## Mechanicaldawg (Sep 22, 2005)

huntfish said:
			
		

> Heck, the antis don't even have to get involved about the baiting issue.  I've seen the enemy and it is us hunters.  Too much worrying about what the other is doing.
> 
> Lighten up folks, you're hunting in Georgia, why do you care what is being done in Texas?  Initially this started out as a high fence operation.  I pointed out that it was not a high fence operation so the bickering now starts on the corn issue.  It is legal to hunt with bait in Texas.
> 
> ...




huntfishy,

The idea is simple. If there are folks that like to shoot deer "Texas Style" all they have to do is trip on back over there and fire at will and then pay the owner of the livestock.

That is not the way the majority of Georgians want their resources to be treated, nor do they want to see the heritage of sport hunting to devolve into a "I'm going to kill me a monster buck no matter what it takes" economic enterprise.

Texas can grow all the livestock it wants and folks can hang the antlers on the wall and proclaim themselves to be great hunters but I'd take more pride in a 8" spiked Georgia, free-range pineywood goat than biggest he-man rack in South Texas.

BTW, the division of which you speak comes from those who year after year go to our legislature and place bills there knowing they were defeated the previous year. For at least the past 9 years the representitives of the people of the State of Georgia have said no to South Texas Style hunting in our state and it is a trend that I am proud to say will continue.


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## QuakerBoy (Sep 22, 2005)

hunter rich said:
			
		

> But if non-hunters from Texas think all hunters hunt behind fences and over feeders or corn piles then we have a problem.




Does anyone on this board have any real idea how non-hunters in texas (not anti-hunters...just non hunters) feel about hunting behind fences or over feeders?


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## reylamb (Sep 22, 2005)

rpaul11 said:
			
		

> Does anyone on this board have any real idea how non-hunters in texas (not anti-hunters...just non hunters) feel about hunting behind fences or over feeders?


They feel much the same way as the non-hunters in SC think of hunting over bait.........that is the way it is done.  Fences and baiting have long been part of the hunting tradition in TX, and the non-hunters don't think anything of it, it has always been that way.


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## QuakerBoy (Sep 22, 2005)

reylamb said:
			
		

> They feel much the same way as the non-hunters in SC think of hunting over bait.........that is the way it is done.  Fences and baiting have long been part of the hunting tradition in TX, and the non-hunters don't think anything of it, it has always been that way.




That's what I was figguring...


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## reylamb (Sep 22, 2005)

I have a bunch of friends in Texas, have done some work in Texas and my wife has family in Texas.  To go one step farther, alot of non-hunters are happy about the fences in Texas because it keeps alot of deer off the highways.  Texas has a fairly low deer vs vehicle incident reports as opposed to many other states with similar sized deer herds.  

Then again, they are Texans and they are a little different........j/k to any Texans here guys, it was a little jab....


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## Jim Thompson (Sep 22, 2005)

hunter rich said:
			
		

> I believe that is called ***, just incase by some stroke of fate someone that knows of the ranch you are going to hunt happens to hear about this thread...



sounds like that dont it

Actually that was one of my personal requirements before choosing a place to go on a pay hunt.  Same with next years Il trip if we end up going.

I cover my backside on enough things, hunting does not have to be one


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## hunter rich (Sep 22, 2005)

Now if we could just get you to cover your feet    !!!


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## Mechanicaldawg (Sep 22, 2005)

biggame11 said:
			
		

> ............. I can't help if the average georgia hunter is slow in learning..........



Very interesting take on Georgia hunters.

I think that perhaps you just set an all time high for the highest number of members insulted in one post!

Very nice!


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## Ta-ton-ka chips (Sep 22, 2005)

biggame11 said:
			
		

> Jeff,
> 
> Livestock
> 
> On the other issue you are speaking about, I can't help if the average georgia hunter is slow in learning the proper way to hunt.


 I'm not "slow", my mom said I rode the short bus cause I'm special!


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## Mechanicaldawg (Sep 23, 2005)

Well, if nothing else, you've admitted the average Georgia hunter doesn't want to shoot stuff over bait.

Facing your problems head on and removal of your denial on any subject is the first and most important step.

I just hope our fellow "average Georgia hunters" will accept your explanation.


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## hunter rich (Sep 23, 2005)

Jeff Young said:
			
		

> Well, if nothing else, you've admitted the average Georgia hunter doesn't want to shoot stuff over bait.
> I just hope our fellow "average Georgia hunters" will accept your explanation.



Nope.


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## huntfish (Sep 24, 2005)

reylamb said:
			
		

> To go one step farther, alot of non-hunters are happy about the fences in Texas because it keeps alot of deer off the highways.  Texas has a fairly low deer vs vehicle incident reports as opposed to many other states with similar sized deer herds.
> 
> Then again, they are Texans and they are a little different........j/k to any Texans here guys, it was a little jab....


   Texans don't give a flip if you hit a deer.  Ever wonder why we have cattle guards on our trucks?  It's not for the cattle or push gates.  Drive in the dark, at the speed limit around Mason, Texas.  You WILL hit 3 deer at a minimum.


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## Timberman (Sep 24, 2005)

> That is not the way the majority of Georgians want their resources to be treated, nor do they want to see the heritage of sport hunting to devolve into a "I'm going to kill me a monster buck no matter what it takes" economic enterprise.



I will take liberty and assume this statement pertains to deer hunting in Texas. 

It would seem to me that we owe a big thank you to Texas and it's farsighted individuals Like Al Brothers who 40, 50 60 years ago began to develop the concept of QDM and refine it thru trial and error until we have the current model, which is promoted by QDMA and from which the Georgia DNR and a majority of hunters in the state have borrowed their philosophy very heavily from...realizing that I wonder how can you hate and degrade and run down the originators of the very whitetail management scheme that is so heavily promoted by the Georgia DNR and this website? Sure it is used as part of a for profit motive with varying degrees of intensity in Texas but saying that begs the question...do Georgians as a whole dislike the for profit motive or the actual management used to produce the trophy animals? Of the management used only high fence is really alien and offensive to the average Georgian, and other than that Georgians can and do feed, plot, mineral, pass bucks, shoot does, cull deer and manipulate habitat just as intensive as Texas. Could  be folks is mad cause it really does work in Texas vs here?... I would think the for profit motive is the issue cause surely no one in their right mind would run down the very style of hunting they emulate.  

Personally, I've only been to Texas once in pursuit of Whitetails. And to be honest, I can take or leave Texas. It is Canada that rings my bell. Harsh conditions, Bergmans rule in effect, snow, wilderness, monster bodies and racks, just the whole northwoods aura.  


Al


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## Mechanicaldawg (Sep 25, 2005)

"which is promoted by QDMA and from which the Georgia DNR and a majority of hunters in the state have borrowed their philosophy very heavily from...realizing that I wonder how can you hate and degrade and run down the originators of the very whitetail management scheme that is so heavily promoted by the Georgia DNR and this website?"-Timberman

Timber,

While some of the members of this website to promote the QDMA, the "website" does not neccessarily. As for the Georgia WRD, they have succumbed to public input, perhaps rightfully so and made "antler restrictions" part of the regulations. The can not be mistaken for QDM and I'm certain you understand the difference.

My comment that you quoted could be literily interptreted to mean this "The citizens of georgia don not want hunters to be allowed to kill wildlife over bait or inside fences."

As such the statement had nothing to do with Texas with the exception of using it as an example, in many instances, of what Georgians do not want.

No I don't speak for all Georgians. I'm merely relating the results of the research.


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## dominantpredator (Sep 25, 2005)

Glenn said:
			
		

> Just reading some of the threads to the Tecamonte post in the Photography forum and I just have to ask this question.
> 
> How many of you would not hunt on that ranch for all the money in the world?
> 
> The ranch basicly just breeds big deer and you might as well be shooting cattle in a pasture as they graze on lush green lettuce. Sorry fellas but I can't stand the image ranches like that puts out there in the public realm.


I don't think it would be like shooting cattle at all. It would be a place I would like to hunt. I don't care about hunting a piece of property that no bucks bigger than a dog are inhabiting.


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## orion1mdl (Sep 25, 2005)

Isn't the goal of QDM and antler restrictions pretty much one in the same? I thought the goal was, and is to allow bucks to get older, (for bigger antlers) and then give them the chance to breed and pass those "big antler"genes along. More bucks, (but be sure to kill any inferior ones), with bigger antlers, making more bucks, providing more big antlers. I think in most cases, QDM could actualy be called B.A.M. (Big Antler Management). As for the does, their just seen as a tool to get more bucks with bigger antlers. It's getting to the point where alot of folks are being held in higher esteem for their ability to consistantly grow, and keep deer of a certain size, on their property by what ever means, than the person that has, through years of hard work, become a very skillful woodsman, and successful hunter that achieves his goals without the use of food plots, baiting stations, or high fences. For years now, it's primarily about the horns for most folks, and each generation it gets worse. Kids are seeing that the only thing that really counts in hunting, is the number of inches that rack will score. Just read alot of the posts on these boards. A question was asked if the State said you could ony kill does, or you had to kill 5 does before you could kill a buck, would you still hunt in Ga.? Many said nope! They'd go to another state, or they'd just quit because they don't eat deer anyway, and they just want the antlers! (Had to admire that honesty.) It's all about the antlers. More antlers, bigger antlers, book size antlers, P&Y or B&C antlers, how can I grow 'em, who do I have to call to see if they have such deer and can put me on one, how can I make 'em bigger, and how can I make it as easy as possible. Just my opinions folks!


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## Mechanicaldawg (Sep 25, 2005)

orion,

QDM is far more complex than mere antler restrictions.


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## orion1mdl (Sep 25, 2005)

Jeff Young said:
			
		

> orion,
> 
> QDM is far more complex than mere antler restrictions.


Yes, I'm sure their are more steps involved in practicing QDM than just antler point restrictions, but aren't the desired results the same? I mean, one club or State might impose antler point restrictions to try to increase the number and size of antlered deer. And another club or State will impose what they call QDM, to try to better manage the deer on a given area by controlling buck to doe ratios, killing inferior bucks, using the inside spread measurements, and so on, to also try to increase the number and size of antlered deer. Is this not the case? I may be way off! I've really not spent to much time researching the differences between the two because from the way I've heard those terms used, I believed the ultimate goal of both was one in the same. I can't speak for everyone, but from the majority of people that I talk to, and or hunt with, also believe that QDM, or antler point restrictions, (or a combination of the two), is supposed to mean pretty much the same thing. Bigger antlers! We don't have to go into the differences in steps involved in the two, but if you could just let me know how the ultimate goals are different between the two practices, that would  be most helpful because I really would like to have a better understanding if I've been going on mis-information.


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## hunter rich (Sep 26, 2005)

*What is quality deer management?*

Quality Deer Management (QDM) is a management philosophy/practice that unites landowners, hunters, and managers in a common goal of producing biologically and socially balanced deer herds within existing environmental, social, and legal constraints. This approach typically involves the protection of young bucks (yearlings and some 2.5 year-olds) combined with an adequate harvest of female deer to maintain a healthy population in balance with existing habitat conditions and landowner desires. This level of deer management involves the production of quality deer (bucks, does, and fawns), quality habitat, quality hunting experiences, and, most importantly, quality hunters.

A successful QDM program requires an increased knowledge of deer biology and active participation in management. This level of involvement extends the role of the hunter from mere consumer to manager. The progression from education to understanding, and finally, to respect; bestows an ethical obligation upon the hunter to practice sound deer management. Consequently, to an increasing number of landowners and hunters, QDM is a desirable alternative to traditional management, which allows the harvest of any legal buck and few, if any, does.

QDM guidelines are formulated according to property-specific objectives, goals, and limitations. Participating hunters enjoy both the tangible and intangible benefits of this approach. Pleasure can be derived from each hunting experience, regardless if a shot is fired. What is important is the chance to harvest a quality buck - an opportunity lacking in many areas under traditional management. When a quality buck is taken on a QDM area, the pride can be shared by all property hunters because it was they who produced it by allowing it to reach the older age classes which are necessary for large bodies and antlers.


Where and When Did QDM Originate?
Texas is the formal birthplace of QDM. Beginning in the late 1960s, wildlife biologists Al Brothers and Murphy Ray Jr. began formalizing their novel ideas on deer management, which they outlined in their 1975 book, Producing Quality Whitetails. The QDM movement gained momentum in Texas during the 1970s, but was slow to spread to other parts of the whitetail's range. The idea was brought to the Southeast in the late 1970s and slowly gained acceptance, initially from large private landowners and timber companies. 

Throughout the 1980s and 1990s, QDM gained popularity throughout other portions of the whitetail's range. By the year 2000, dozens of states and thousands of hunters had implemented QDM restrictions on millions of acres of private and public lands across the United States. Without question, QDM is rapidly becoming accepted as the most desirable and biologically sound deer management approach for today's whitetail herds. 

Is QDM for all Hunters?
Not necessarily. But a growing number of hunters have progressed to a stage in their hunting that reflects a change in values and a desire for a "different" hunting experience. Involvement in QDM is simply an alternative to traditional deer management. Originally, only large properties (1,000 acres or more) were involved in QDM, but smaller properties are now participating through the formation of QDM cooperatives comprised of several smaller properties with similar objectives


qdma.com


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## Mechanicaldawg (Sep 26, 2005)

orion1mdl said:
			
		

> but if you could just let me know how the ultimate goals are different between the two practices,



orion,

My opinion on "Antler Restrictions":

I believe the ultimate goal of the state mandated antler restrictions is to satisfy the wishes of some Georgia hunters and special interest groups, such as the QDMA and feed companies that think big racks equal "deer hunting".

In other words, the state instituted the restriction due to pubic input, not neccessarily because WRD believed they would result in "quality" anything. 

My opinion on "QDM":

I'll start by stating that I am a member of QDMA & have found much info & services I've recieved from them to be helpful in understanding much about the habits of deer as well as the habits of humans.

Now for the meat. IMO, Quality Deer Management has become, if indeed it was not intended form the beginning to be, a big business. It has been carefully tailored to teach hunters and landowners that if they are not striving to raise a balanced herd of whitetails with large populations of deer with heavy racks they may be less than good hunters or good stewards of their land.

In the process, many a business and their associates have profited mightily.

Don't misunderstand my point here. I am a firm believer in free-market capitalism! I simply disagree with what the QDM folks definition of a "Quality Deer Herd" is composed of.

Of course, all of this is simply one man's opinion.


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## orion1mdl (Sep 26, 2005)

Thanks Jeff and hunter rich, for the great input on this issue. Thats pretty much what I thought the gist of the these practices are. I am all for the careful and thoughtful management of all of our wildlife resources, but the demand by hunters for more and bigger antlers, in my opinion, is going to do little for the overall welfare of wildlife, and will be used as a tool for people that would like nothing more than to ban hunting all together. My biggest problem with QDM, is the insinuation that only heavy antlered deer, or bucks with the genetic make up to grow into a specific B&C number of inches or better, is a "quality deer". Also, the view that unless you practice a specific system, you are not a quality hunter. I understand that there is a need  for some programs to limit or restrict the killing of certain bucks in order to ensure the chance of mature bucks to breed, and also, to provide hunters in general with the opportunity to see and maybe kill mature bucks or "trophy buck", and I have no problem with that, to a degree. But trend of "antlers= quality", or 150" antlers or bigger= quality, is dangerous to hunting, IMO. It may sound as if I am against hunting deer that have big antlers, and I am not, but I am for hunting the deer, and not just the antlers that he's wearing. Again, I'm all for sound management programs that try to ensure the overall health of the deer herd in a area, which would include good buck/doe ratios, maximizing the carrying capacity of the land, and selective harvest to allow mature deer to maintain the gene pool. My issues are with practices that stress the growth of antlers to feed the addiction to bigger antlers. I've been hunting for about 40 years now, and I have had many, many quality hunting experiences. I've killed a few animals that I consider to be very good representations of mature animals, and all the horns or antlers that I've taken, still remind me of great hunts, good friends and beautiful animals. But I have only once put a tape measure on one of my mounts, to see what it would score. I don't know, they're all quality animals to me, including the does and the cow elk I've taken. Just my perspective, and thanks again guys for the feedback.


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## huntfish (Sep 26, 2005)

hunter rich said:
			
		

> Quality Deer Management (QDM) is a management philosophy/practice that unites landowners, hunters, and managers in a common goal of producing biologically and socially balanced deer herds within existing environmental, social, and legal constraints. This approach typically involves the protection of young bucks (yearlings and some 2.5 year-olds) combined with an adequate harvest of female deer to maintain a healthy population in balance with existing habitat conditions and landowner desires. This level of deer management involves the production of quality deer (bucks, does, and fawns), quality habitat, quality hunting experiences, and, most importantly, quality hunters.
> 
> A successful QDM program requires an increased knowledge of deer biology and active participation in management. This level of involvement extends the role of the hunter from mere consumer to manager. The progression from education to understanding, and finally, to respect; bestows an ethical obligation upon the hunter to practice sound deer management. Consequently, to an increasing number of landowners and hunters, QDM is a desirable alternative to traditional management, which allows the harvest of any legal buck and few, if any, does.
> 
> ...


Thank you.  From the fourth paragraph on, you described exactly what I was implying about hunting in Texas.  Do they hunt over bait?  Yes.  Do they hunt over food plots?  Yes.  Do they make a decision on what animal to shoot?  Yes.  Do they manage their herds?  Yes.  Do they shoot does?  Yes.  Do they shoot management bucks?  Yes, and most would make the wall in Georgia.

Are most hunting leases in Texas high fenced?  NOOOOOOO.  Is baiting legal in Texas?  YES.  What is the problem?  Have the majority of people comparing Texas hunting to Georgia hunting been to Texas on a hunt?  I doubt it.

Jim Thompson, you are going there this year.  What are your expectations?  Based on this thread, you will be hunting over a feeder and behind a high fence.  I know that will not be the case but come on folks, this is getting a little ridiculous.


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## hunter rich (Sep 27, 2005)

Because I understand QDM doesn't mean I will practice it according to Texas standards.  I believe baiting, feeders, and high fences are wrong. I believe Quality should not mean quality antlers, but healthy deer.  A healthy spike or a healthy 8 point tast the same and will breed and produce more healthy deer. If big antlers are a product of me being concerned with the over all health of the deer than hooray for me.  I wont do everything I can to produce P&Y or B&C deer, unless it benefits the rest of the deer.  Antler restrictions placed on the public by the state are a feeble attempt to restrict the shooting of young bucks.  I don't know of a better way to do it, but there has to be one.


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## dominantpredator (Sep 27, 2005)

orion1mdl said:
			
		

> Isn't the goal of QDM and antler restrictions pretty much one in the same? I thought the goal was, and is to allow bucks to get older, (for bigger antlers) and then give them the chance to breed and pass those "big antler"genes along. More bucks, (but be sure to kill any inferior ones), with bigger antlers, making more bucks, providing more big antlers. I think in most cases, QDM could actualy be called B.A.M. (Big Antler Management). As for the does, their just seen as a tool to get more bucks with bigger antlers. It's getting to the point where alot of folks are being held in higher esteem for their ability to consistantly grow, and keep deer of a certain size, on their property by what ever means, than the person that has, through years of hard work, become a very skillful woodsman, and successful hunter that achieves his goals without the use of food plots, baiting stations, or high fences. For years now, it's primarily about the horns for most folks, and each generation it gets worse. Kids are seeing that the only thing that really counts in hunting, is the number of inches that rack will score. Just read alot of the posts on these boards. A question was asked if the State said you could ony kill does, or you had to kill 5 does before you could kill a buck, would you still hunt in Ga.? Many said nope! They'd go to another state, or they'd just quit because they don't eat deer anyway, and they just want the antlers! (Had to admire that honesty.) It's all about the antlers. More antlers, bigger antlers, book size antlers, P&Y or B&C antlers, how can I grow 'em, who do I have to call to see if they have such deer and can put me on one, how can I make 'em bigger, and how can I make it as easy as possible. Just my opinions folks!


Buck to doe ratio......ever heard od it? I don't think wanting to kill a big buck is wrong at all. People always are trying to accomplish acknowledgement. Bass fishing is full of people trying to catch the BIG fish. Baseball keeps more records than any organization I know. I don't see your point when you say it is all about the antlers. Yes , I want more antlers and bigger antlers. That would mean that a healthy herd was present. I have never heard anyone say I killed the smallest buck this year and be PROUD of it. There are circumstances for some that would be the case, children especially. Most people I know, that are hunters, want to kill a big ol  buck. And that is the one thing that has not changed since I was taken on my very first deer hunt 26 years ago. Big bucks  should not be raised by the state, but by the hunters and stewards of our Georgia woods.


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## Jim Thompson (Sep 27, 2005)

is this still going on?


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## orion1mdl (Sep 27, 2005)

dominantpredator said:
			
		

> Buck to doe ratio......ever heard od it? I don't think wanting to kill a big buck is wrong at all. People always are trying to accomplish acknowledgement. Bass fishing is full of people trying to catch the BIG fish. Baseball keeps more records than any organization I know. I don't see your point when you say it is all about the antlers. Yes , I want more antlers and bigger antlers. That would mean that a healthy herd was present. I have never heard anyone say I killed the smallest buck this year and be PROUD of it. There are circumstances for some that would be the case, children especially. Most people I know, that are hunters, want to kill a big ol  buck. And that is the one thing that has not changed since I was taken on my very first deer hunt 26 years ago. Big bucks  should not be raised by the state, but by the hunters and stewards of our Georgia woods.


You might check out post #53 and #56. And, I'm personally not into hunting deer raised by anyone, but that's just me!


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## Jim Thompson (Sep 27, 2005)

is this still going on?


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## Nicodemus (Sep 27, 2005)

I always figured Mother Nature had plenty of experience herself in managin`wildlife.


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