# The fantasy of deathbed conversions



## atlashunter (Jun 6, 2019)

Came up in another thread. Of course it’s not true but when have theists ever let that stand in their way?

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-fantasy-of-the-deathbed-conversion

“In this regard, the saddest thing about these imagined deathbed conversions is that, even if they were real, they could hardly be seen as victories for Christ. They are stories in which the final pain of a fatal disease, or the fear of imminent death and eternal punishment, is identified as the factor necessary for otherwise rational people to believe in the supernatural.

If mental torture is required to effect a conversion, what does that say about the reliability of the fundamental premises of Christianity to begin with? Evangelicals would be better advised to concentrate on converting the living. Converting the deceased suggests only that they can’t convince those who can argue back. They should let the dead rest in peace.“


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## Israel (Jun 8, 2019)

I read the article to try and get a better sense for what was being said. And maybe your motive for posting it.

And though there are parts with which I do not agree in assumption of "purpose" or what the author presumes to be concluded in effect, I also cannot disagree with a great deal of it.

If my perceptions have ever led to a process whereby I have been pressed to winnow out a truth/error or real/unreal to any conclusion (even _if my conclusions_ themselves must be further revised) then, at least _in perception _I would be lying to say I find no basis upon which the author and I actually do agree. And to then dismiss it all as balderdash.

Leaving the whole of the matter of Hitchens' ultimate disposition aside (with disposition referring both to "his own" as relative to Christ , and disposition in a _more _ultimate sense) there remain perceptions that the author and I probably share.

There can be (at least as I have been exposed to it) a sort of "scalp hunting" mentality particularly made evident by values assigned to very particular scalps. If, and please bear with me, the experience of "contest", of opposition, of engagement, displays a "battling" quality, then it appears inherent that any "battler" has some metric of what it would mean to be successful in such an endeavor. What, or how, triumph of _his stance_ appears to him.

Capturing the enemy's "flag" is not a concept I believe lost on any of us...(unless of course, it is.) I have found it no less of having some "pull" upon myself at times...a certain unwholesome pleasure appealed to when someone or something presents the knowing that "such and such a ("great") person" is said to be a "christian". Be they among the_ rich and famous_ or whatever _their achievement_ of note may be. It _seems_ (please read seems rightly) a validation. "Look, so and so is a "great" person (rich/ famous/ brilliant/Nobel prizer) and we share in this "thing" called christianity...and I therefore have some part (no matter how derivative) with their greatness. I may find its appeal to making me feel "less than stupid", less than unknown, less than any or all of particular things that cause any question of "wrongness" within with which a man might find a battle in appraising his soul. "I am increased". I am validated.

How much more increase to a darkened soul which is given to striving to establish its being as "valid" would the capture of what may appear the essential enemy of opposition? A "great" scalp to be had, to be claimed (like beheading an opposing King) has great appeal in _that view. _

_"I (or "we") win!" Peace now! And not only peace...but a _garland_ for me! (or us)._

To say with any surety that _this view_, perception, purpose of clarity is essentially anti-Christ seems almost ridiculously moot. It, in my appearing, only serves to make plain the esteeming of "things" in a darkened soul. It shows (if for me, or in me, or _to me_) only that I yet hold some esteem _as better..._riches or fame, intellectual achievement, notoriety in some measure. Something I treasure, or yet treasure, by some wayward esteem.

For _where your treasure is_, there your heart will be also.

So, I easily see where the appeal might be for a man to come out and say to_ his tribe..._"Look, we (for I have participated!) hold in our hands the scalp of this once avowed enemy! We...have triumphed here in this arena of (apparent) greatest striving! A "great" enemy has been won over."



But the arena of "apparent" striving...is not the arena of true battle.



If I, or any man, has an unwholesome esteem within, it cannot but make its way "out" if left unidentified and unaddressed. And it will not be to the health of others by my promoting of such esteem...even if I believe it serves them best to some comfort...for I am appealing also to an unwholesome esteem in them that I recommend to their comfort.

"Be a _good boy_ and eat your peas".

Which is really..."don't give me any trouble"

I am content God knows where Hitchens appears. How much a lie it would have to be shown to _not be content _with how or where _any appear_...before God?


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