# A Challenge!



## hobbs27 (Apr 6, 2014)

Can you defend our belief in an eternal place of dam nation ie. he11, using scripture alone? 

First, you must research the Hebrew or Greek meaning of the word you are using to define he11. It must mean what we call an eternal place of dam nation. Please help me with this I know theres some smart folks in here.


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## SemperFiDawg (Apr 6, 2014)

Jesus spoke on the subject on many occasions as a real place of eternal torment.  That's good enough for me.


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 6, 2014)

The only places are the parable of the rich man and lazurus and in Rev, there is a debatable place


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 6, 2014)

Going outside of scripture, If I recall, as early as Polycarp


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## hobbs27 (Apr 6, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> The only places are the parable of the rich man and lazurus and in Rev, there is a debatable place



My NKJV uses the term hades to describe the placement of the rich man. From my research this meant an abode for the dead.

The parable in itself claims the rich man was in a place of torment while Lazarus was in Abrahams bosom and was comforted...also there was a gulf fixed that prevented one coming and going between the two places.

This describes the place I would call an eternal place of torment, but it doesnt seem to match by word usage and definition---unless you have better resources, I know you're really good at greek and hebrew definitions.

 Where exactly in Revelation are you speaking of ? Thanks.


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## Ronnie T (Apr 6, 2014)

And, everlasting death or everlasting destruction doesn't mean dying.  It means everlasting punishment outside the presence of God.

*Matthew 25:41–46 
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me ... 

*Matt 5:21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his ...... 
29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hel l. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it ... 

*
*
*


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 6, 2014)

I'll look and see if I can find it. It came up another time Woody's discussed it. I did not agree with the interpretation presented but often let it go because I hate always seeming like I contridict everything. I will say that under minor consideration, that all verses presented can be shown not to imply what is assumed. Most assume eternal punishment when it does not say so but rather destruction. Irreversiable unlike todays age where we can still repent


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 6, 2014)

It's near the end of Rev where it talks about throwing people in with the place prepared for the devil and his angels. Some assume eternal torment along with the devil. I say based on the remainder of scriptures, they are thrown in and destroyed.


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 6, 2014)

So many verses , all interpreted based on one's traditional assumptions. This verse for example.  John 15;6 "he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers, such branches are thrown in the fire and burned". Many will see eternal torment here, I see destroyed. The text does not specify. I think of Paul when he said that he had rather be cut off for the sake of God's people, something like that. Would Paul say that I would suffer eternal punishment forever and ever if they would just listen?


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 6, 2014)

Google "the fire that consumes by Edward Fudge on you tube". This is the most complete look at the debate, from both sides, presenting all the evidence, all the verses, all the opinions, from the bible through early church fathers. It may not change anyone's mind, but after seeing this  anyone will know the debate. This is what interest me in many things. I like to know the debate, what it consists of. I think Fudge does a good job presenting it. Several updated videos since I last watched it. Those I watched were him in a suit. The new ones have him in several parts, wearing a casual shirt


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 6, 2014)

Ronnie T said:


> And, everlasting death or everlasting destruction doesn't mean dying.  It means everlasting punishment outside the presence of God.
> 
> *Matthew 25:41–46
> 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me ...
> ...



The sheep & the goats being divided because of not helping and feeding brothers and anger without a cause is not a mainstream Christian concept is it?  I thought the sheep & the goats would be divided by who is saved vs who isn't saved.
This stuff from the Gospels, does it pertain to me? 

Matthew 25:46
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
(Righteous vs saved people always confuses me. Are they the same?)
(Eternal punishment doesn't sound like death to me.)
(I'd rather be dead than "eternally punished.")
I like the concept of death vs everlasting life, I just don't know if it's biblical.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 7, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> So many verses , all interpreted based on one's traditional assumptions.



 This is not the Christian I want to be ^^^



> I AM AFRAID OF A DRY-EYED FAITH -
> Plough deep, my brethren. Feel what you believe. Let it be with you real homework, soul-work, the work of God the Holy Ghost—not a temporary excitement, not head-knowledge, not theory. May the truth be burned into your souls by the operation of the Holy Ghost. -- Spurgeon



 Nor this^^^, I desire the scriptures be burned into my soul  by the operation of the Holy Ghost!  This requires me to study and pray and let God make the decision within me.

 Thanks for what you have brought up so far 1gr8bldr, I will watch the youtube video sometime today.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 7, 2014)

About hades or sheol.

 According to what I have read it was an abode for both the evil and righteous dead with different compartments, a place of comfort known as Abrahams bosom and a place of torments which housed the rich man.

I think this is also where the OT saints of Matthew were resurrected and here is some interesting "to me " scripture to follow this.

17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. 

Rev. 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 7, 2014)

Here is the updated, or should I say the one's I have not already seen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpY9ikfydHM


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 7, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> About hades or sheol.
> 
> According to what I have read it was an abode for both the evil and righteous dead with different compartments, a place of comfort known as Abrahams bosom and a place of torments which housed the rich man.
> 
> ...



So as you see it, he11, hades, or sheol was done away with after the ressurection of Jesus? I understand your views on Christians going to Heaven after their personal resurrection. Where do un-believers go or do they just die when they die?


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 7, 2014)

Ever considered that we owe it to God to represent him properly. What if the he11 doctrine is not biblical? Consider how disgusting it would be to God. We as bible carrying believers should realize the damage we could do by misrepresenting A Holy God. We have an obligation, to research this traditional held belief, to put our traditional assumptions away and see, what did the original writers intend to say. I realize the resistence, the power of tradition, the assumption that we can't be wrong. Yet, it should be priorty that we seek to represent God as he is. I challenge everyone to become apollogetics, to research both sides of the argument.


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## Israel (Apr 7, 2014)

Mar 9:43  And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 
Mar 9:44  Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 

Below w/Strong's Greek numbers.


Mar 9:43  And ifG1437 thyG4675 handG5495 offendG4624 thee,G4571 cut it off:G609 G846 it isG2076 betterG2570 for theeG4671 to enterG1525 intoG1519 lifeG2222 maimed,G2948 thanG2228 havingG2192 twoG1417 handsG5495 to goG565 intoG1519 - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -,G1067 intoG1519 theG3588 fireG4442 that never shall be quenched:G762 
Mar 9:44  WhereG3699 theirG846 wormG4663 diethG5053 not,G3756 andG2532 theG3588 fireG4442 is notG3756 quenched.G4570 


 Luk 12:5  But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. 

below, again w/Strongs #s

Luk 12:5  ButG1161 I will forewarnG5263 youG5213 whomG5101 ye shall fear:G5399 FearG5399 him, which after he hath killedG615 hathG2192 powerG1849 to castG1685 intoG1519 - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -;G1067 yea,G3483 I sayG3004 unto you,G5213 FearG5399 him.
Same number for this word: G1067
γέεννα
geenna
gheh'-en-nah
Of Hebrew origin ([H1516] and [H2011]); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -.

I realize that the above "red" is commentary more than definition of a word.
However, if we take to heart the Lord's word, that there's a torment we may endure that could cause one to be better off had they not been born, it would seem it precludes annihilation. To me, anyway.
(My .02 $...we can have everything "our own way" if we'd really like, refuse instruction, refuse admonition, refuse entreaty by the Spirit and refuse the call to truth...and end up with everything "our own". 
Forever.)

Act 1:25  That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. 

Without the Lord's work, I believe it's impossible for a man to vote against himself.
But salvation, thankfully, is the Lord's.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 7, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> So as you see it, he11, hades, or sheol was done away with after the ressurection of Jesus? I understand your views on Christians going to Heaven after their personal resurrection. Where do un-believers go or do they just die when they die?



Art, yes hades was an OT requirement. A place to hold souls until the redeemer came and shed the blood and water of salvation.Christ emptied it as the resurrection was completed. 

 As for a NT he11 , that's the gist of the challenge. I do and always have believed in a place of eternal torment but let's reevaluate this. 1gr8bldr recently brought up the fact that Gehenna is mistranslated as he11. It was actually a place of a trash incinerator....and more interesting than that "to me" is it is the place in which the Romans dumped the bodies of the dead Jews from the seige of Jerusalem in 70 ad. So when Jesus warned people of being cast into Gehenna---- this warning too was fulfilled. Now I want to dig and find how many times this was used in the Gospels and Revelation, so I can determine the true scripture about a place of eternal torment.


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 7, 2014)

Israel said:


> Mar 9:43  And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
> Mar 9:44  Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
> 
> Below w/Strong's Greek numbers.
> ...


Hello Israel, may I point out how some see this. The MK passage, paraphraseing, better to to have eternal life without a hand than to die. And the LK verse, A warning to those of who you should fear ,  assuming that the dead in Christ are waiting to be resurected and will not preceed us,  At the judgement day, all will be raised to face judgement. Some to go on to eternal life, some to be thrown in the lake of fire for destruction. Fear him whom after you have died and are asleep waiting on judgement has the power to destroy your soul, no chance of eternal life after this. As for Judas, not much to work with there


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 7, 2014)

Nothing exists from the OT that resembles eternal punishment


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 7, 2014)

How do we define eternal death, eternal destruction, and eternal torment?
Eternal distruction could just be eternal death.  Eternal torment could be by fire but i guess it could be not having everlasting life. That would be torment.
Eternally perishing, being eternally destroyed, eternally tormented could all happen in one instant at the start of your eternal death. It could be forever but not physically going on forever as in a burning place. Everlasting in the sense of not returning to life.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 7, 2014)

Revelation 20:14-15
14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

If Hades is He11, how can it be thrown into the lake of fire? Is the second death eternal? How can the dead be eternally tormented?


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## M80 (Apr 7, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Revelation 20:14-15
> 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
> 
> If Hades is He11, how can it be thrown into the lake of fire? Is the second death eternal? How can the dead be eternally tormented?



My bible says death and he11. 

If the devil, the false prophet, and the beast are tormented, you can believe the lost cast in will also be forever according to verse 10 of revelations 20


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 7, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> My bible says death and he11.
> 
> If the devil, the false prophet, and the beast are tormented, you can believe the lost cast in will also be forever according to verse 10 of revelations 20



That very well could be the verse Hobbs was looking for. 

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

verse13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and he11 delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
(why were there dead people in the sea verses He!!? This sounds like he11 could mean the ground.)

verse14
And death and he11 were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(The actuality or act of death and the grave were abolished?)

verse15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(maybe this verse could be the proof Hobbs is looking for.)


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 7, 2014)

Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(why were only the dead judged? Were they thrown into the lake of fire based on works?)


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 7, 2014)

What about Mark 9:44 & 48?
Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched.

If literal then people in He11 will have physical bodies.


Jeremiah 17:27
But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.
(shown for a comparison of a fire that shall not be quenched. Is Jerusalem still burning?)

Wasn't the fire necessary to remove the old heaven & earth to make way for the new Heaven & Earth?


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 7, 2014)

There is a first death and a second death. The first is when we die, good and bad people and we sleep till the time of judgement. Some will be raised to eternal life and some thrown in the fire prepared for the devil. The devil is an eternal being so therefore he will along with his angels suffer forever and ever. Those not saved for eternal life will be thrown in to be destroyed. Just because the devil will suffer forever, we can not assume the same for man. Man is not an eternal being. He will cease to exist.


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 7, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> That very well could be the verse Hobbs was looking for.
> 
> Revelation 20:10
> And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
> ...


vs 14, it would be strange to say that "death and hades were thrown in" and are going to suffer for ever


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 7, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> How do we define eternal death, eternal destruction, and eternal torment?
> Eternal distruction could just be eternal death.  Eternal torment could be by fire but i guess it could be not having everlasting life. That would be torment.
> Eternally perishing, being eternally destroyed, eternally tormented could all happen in one instant at the start of your eternal death. It could be forever but not physically going on forever as in a burning place. Everlasting in the sense of not returning to life.


Hey friend, where do you find eternal death, eternal destruction and eternal torment. I would like to look at the greek. I often use Biblehub. I type in the verse and bible hub to get me there and it will have a breakdown of the greek


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 7, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hey friend, where do you find eternal death, eternal destruction and eternal torment. I would like to look at the greek. I often use Biblehub. I type in the verse and bible hub to get me there and it will have a breakdown of the greek



Nowhere in particular, just words passed around to discuss.
I have been reading about the Greek noun aion, or from the adjective aionios derived from this noun. This has been translated as eternal or forever.
Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with everlasting, or eternal, fire. This was an aionis fire. Is it still burning?

2 Peter 2:6
if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

A fire with ashes would not be an eternal fire.

Interesting reading on this site:

http://www.helltruth.com/q-a/everlasting-fire


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 7, 2014)

Does the Bible Speak of He11fire That Lasts Forever?
The word everlasting is translated from the Greek word aionios. The key to understanding this verse is knowing what will occur everlastingly. Does it refer to a fire that tortures without end, or does it have another meaning?
In Matthew:25:46 Jesus spoke in a single sentence of everlasting ( aionios ) punishment and of life eternal ( aionios ). Since the righteous will be given eternal, or everlasting, life, many theologians believe the punishing of the wicked must last as long as the life given to the righteous. But this cannot be reconciled with the statement that those cast into the lake of fire perish— they are killed. As explained elsewhere, they suffer death—the second death (Revelation:2:11; 20:6, 14; 21:8).
A plain and simple meaning of Matthew:25:46 that fits with the rest of the Bible is that the wicked are cast into a fire that annihilates them—renders them forever extinct. The resulting punishment of being cast into the aionios fire is a one-time event. It is a permanent punishment , the results of which will remain forever—that is, eternal death. It is not ongoing punishing that continues forever without end. This is the only explanation that agrees with the rest of the Scriptures.

An additional point needs to be made regarding the meaning of aionios. Genesis 19 describes God's destruction of two cities, Sodom and Gomorrah, for their wickedness: "Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah" (Genesis:19:24). They were utterly destroyed—consumed by fire.

In the New Testament, the book of Jude describes these cities as "suffering the vengeance of eternal [ aionios ] fire" (verse 7). Yet it is obvious that the fires that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning. In the case of these cities and in the case of the wicked, who are consigned to aionios fire, the fire burns and completely destroys. But the eternal aspect of the fire is its everlasting effect, not how long it actually burns.

http://www.ucg.org/booklet/heaven-a...l-loving-god-punish-people-forever-he11/does/


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## M80 (Apr 7, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> There is a first death and a second death. The first is when we die, good and bad people and we sleep till the time of judgement. Some will be raised to eternal life and some thrown in the fire prepared for the devil. The devil is an eternal being so therefore he will along with his angels suffer forever and ever. Those not saved for eternal life will be thrown in to be destroyed. Just because the devil will suffer forever, we can not assume the same for man. Man is not an eternal being. He will cease to exist.



Man is eternal. His soul is. God breathe the breath of life into Adam. We all descend from him. This can all get real deep.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 7, 2014)

I've finished two of the nine youtube videos. I suggest anyone with an interest in this topic watch what this good ole boy has to say.  He's all over some good stuff here, and filling in some missing pieces for me although he doesn't know it, lol.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 7, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Here is the updated, or should I say the one's I have not already seen.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpY9ikfydHM



Thanks, I've seen all nine videos now. I have to let some of this sink in and see how it settles, but I'm very impressed with his teachings on biblical he11. 

 I have a few disagreements with him on other topics he touched on, and was kind of shocked in the ninth video when he revealed he was from the Church of Christ, only because I just watched another amazing video last week on another biblical topic from another Church of Christ minister. One thing they must teach is to ask, "What does the bible say"~~~~ and when we dump all traditional teachings and those hard to give up on church doctrines and just allow the bible to teach---sometimes we are amazed at what we've been missing out on.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 7, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> Man is eternal. His soul is. God breathe the breath of life into Adam. We all descend from him. This can all get real deep.



This is covered in the youtube videos. Also the point you made earlier about the KJV "my own preferred"  using the word he11 instead of hades.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 8, 2014)

Yet even the second death, or the lake of fire (v. 14) has its positive side. It is not made first of all for human beings, but for supernatural entities and institutions that oppress human beings--Babylon implicitly (17:16; 18:9-10; 19:3), and the beast, the false prophet and the dragon explicitly. It is, as Jesus said, "prepared for the devil and his angels" (Mt 25:41). More important, the lake of fire swallows up death and Hades (compare Is 25:8; 1 Cor 15:54). After the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and after all the dead were judged, says John, death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire (vv. 13-14).

This is all very confusing for modern Christians who were taught that "Hades" is a biblical word for he11 (see the KJV "death and he11 were cast into the lake of fire") and that "he11" in the book of Revelation is itself the lake of fire. How can he11 be thrown into he11? 
The confusion stems from the fact that "Hades" is not "he11" as understood in Christian tradition, but the grave, corresponding to "Sheol" in the Hebrew Bible. It is never mentioned by itself in the book of Revelation, but only as the companion of "Death" (see, for example, 6:8). When John says that death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them (v. 13), he means the graves were opened and the dead were raised. This is the language of resurrection, the "second" resurrection if you like, corresponding to "the first resurrection" of verse 6. But instead of "the second resurrection" he calls it "the second death" (v. 14), for two reasons: (1) because his emphasis is not on being raised to life but on being raised only to die again in the lake of fire; and (2) because it is the death of death itself, and of death's grim companion, the grave.

The notion that death and the grave are thrown into the lake of fire characterizes the lake here not as a place of torment (contrast 19:21 and 20:10), but as a place of destruction or nonexistence. Death and Hades are not tortured or punished, they simply cease to exist. The message of this vivid scene is a simple one: "there will be no more death" (21:4). In Paul's words, "Death has been swallowed up in victory. Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?" (1 Cor 15:54-55). The way is cleared for the triumphant visions of chapters 21-22.

http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/Rev/Judgment-Dead


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## hobbs27 (Apr 8, 2014)

Anyone found a verse yet that definitively refers to he11 as an eternal place of torment for unsaved souls? 

 What are you thinking Art?


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Apr 8, 2014)

One verse among many:

_Mark 9:45-48 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into he11. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into - he11 -, ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’_

I tend to be quick to admit when Christian doctrines (like the trinity) have marginal Scriptural support and weren't fully documented until well after Scripture was written.  

Undoubtedly, there may be Christian descriptions of eternal suffering that differ from or extend the Biblical description, but the idea of eternal fire and punishment for the disobedient has strong Scriptural support.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 8, 2014)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> One verse among many:
> 
> _Mark 9:45-48 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into he11. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into - he11 -, ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’_
> 
> ...




I can defend the trinity much easier in scripture than I can he11 being a place of eternal torment for the unrighteous.
 Example...the verse you refer to is translated from the word Gehenna which is not he11 but was the place Jerusalem dumped their trash...it smoldered day and night as organic material does going through a heat....there was no doubt a constant sight of maggots feeding there on dead animals or spoiled foods....


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 8, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Anyone found a verse yet that definitively refers to he11 as an eternal place of torment for unsaved souls?
> 
> What are you thinking Art?



I'm still researching & praying on the matter. I'm still concerned with the verse where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. If just the city dump why would their worms not die?


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 8, 2014)

I've been reading about those pesky worms(maggots):

How can a worm chew away on someone's "soul"??

Are we now going to say that there will be actual worms chewing on the bodies of the lost for eternity? Many of those who believe in this eternal he11 fire believe that it is the soul of the person that is in he11 for eternity. Well, how are the worms going to eat someone's soul? When you really think about this, you can see how absurd this eternal he11 fire teaching really is.

Life or Death

Friend, there are two options ... John 3:16 ...'For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not PERISH, but have EVERLASTING LIFE.'

Perish or everlasting life! The Word of God could not be any clearer on this. 'The wages of sin is death', not everlasting life in he11 fire.

http://www.truth-about-he11.com/page3.htm


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## M80 (Apr 8, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I've been reading about those pesky worms(maggots):
> 
> How can a worm chew away on someone's "soul"??
> 
> ...



All things are possible with God. Or is anything to hard for The Lord. 
We will have a glorified body liken unto him so he can make a body that will burn forever and never be consumed. He made a bush that never burned up.


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 8, 2014)

Another thought "cast out into utter darkness" seems to contridict a burning fire which produces light. Everything has to have continuity, from the beginning. Man was made to be eternal but was given a curse where he lost his eternal and instead would "surely die" . We have been restored to what Adam lost. No where in the entire OT does it refer to suffering in he11. So my point is that the NT interpretation of he11 has no continuity


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 8, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> All things are possible with God. Or is anything to hard for The Lord.
> We will have a glorified body liken unto him so he can make a body that will burn forever and never be consumed. He made a bush that never burned up.



Maybe our souls never seperate from our bodies and our new bodies will be in the lake or fire or Heaven/New Heaven. Is this Biblical or speculation? If our souls don't stay in our bodies, do they re-enter them after the resurrection?


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## hobbs27 (Apr 8, 2014)

I want to know if I have this correct.

Theres 4 words my trusted kjv bible translates into one word being "he11".

1&2 Hades & Sheol  both seem to be the same place which was a holding place for the righteous and unrighteous. This is where Samuel would have been raised from by the witch of endor and where Lazurus and the rich man went---although different chambers.

3. Gehenna which actually means valley of hennon  a cursed place in which children were sacrificed to a false god in the time the book of kings was taking place...was used by the Jews as a city dump for Jerusalem, and smoldered and burned day in and day out.

4. Tartarus... This one is in 2 peter and I learned of this place by reading in the book of enoch. Its not he11 but a place God banished the angels that had taken human women as wives, they were to be there until the day of judgement--so not eternal.

Well?


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## hobbs27 (Apr 8, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> All things are possible with God. Or is anything to hard for The Lord.
> We will have a glorified body liken unto him so he can make a body that will burn forever and never be consumed. He made a bush that never burned up.



Not all things. God cannot lie...though man can and does.

If God made such a place surely we could find it in His word. I havent given up hope yet, but it's really looking like man had everything to do with inventing he11.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 8, 2014)

More study:

Both the Catholic and Protestant Church believe and teach that when we die we go to either Heaven or he11 after death. 

But is this true or has the church been sold a devious error that does not line up with what the Bible truly tells us about The State of the Dead? 

Some reading this topic may ask, "So why is this such an important topic to understand?".  The reason is that in the Last Days, God's people will rediscover Biblical truths that have been lost for centuries in God's church.   One truth that has been rediscovered is this one.  

Satan will use the lie that we go either Heaven or he11 when we die in order to deceive the whole world.  By believing this lie, it infers that we are already immortal, but scripture makes it clear that we are not immortal yet, but rather are mortal.  We do not receive immortality until after the Second Coming of Jesus. 

The belief that we are already immortal is the same lie that Satan told Eve in the Garden of Eden.  


http://www.roadtobetterliving.com/HTML/StateOfDead.html


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## Israel (Apr 8, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I've been reading about those pesky worms(maggots):
> 
> How can a worm chew away on someone's "soul"??
> 
> ...


Lotsa folks already have the start of those worms chewing away. I know. I was one of them. That the Lord interceded is also something else I know. 
I know now what it is to lie down in peace, and also have a dimmer recollection each day of what it means to be tormented. Have no desire nor interest in returning to that.
Have no desire to discover what it would be like to have every bit of grace removed, every bit of hope withdrawn, every thought of being infected with nothing but the unutterable conviction that I am alone and would never be able to go outside myself to another.

Yes, Judas went to "his own place". Lord, be merciful to me. Save me from all of my own, for you, and yours.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 8, 2014)

If anyone recieves eternal torment in may be poor old Judas. The disciple that by the Holy Spirit had the worst job and duty to fulfill than any other--- people have and probably always will place him in he11.

15 At this time Peter stood up in the midst of the brethren (a gathering of about one hundred and twenty persons was there together), and said, 16 “Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. 17 For he was counted among us and received his share in this ministry.”


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## M80 (Apr 8, 2014)

Thinking outloud here as I study cause Hobbs has me into this. Check out Matt. 10 28. All my verses will come from KJV


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## M80 (Apr 8, 2014)

The way I've interpreted the word of God considering he11 is 

1.) Abraham's bosom in Luke 16 and he11(hades) (Gehenna) is where Old Testament people went to. By faith they went to Abraham's bosom believing in God or denying God they went to he11. 
2.) Abraham's bosom was done away with after Jesus lead the captive out of captivity in Ephesians 4.9. 
3.) I believe right know there is people in he11 burning and being in torment as the rich man still is. The most torment they have is the knowledge of Christ know and the separation. 
4.)I believe there will be a judgement one day at the great white throne. He11 will give up itself and they will bow and confess Jesus as Christ The Lord, and then they will hear depart from me, I know the not. They will then be cast into the lake of fire to be tormented forever. 

This is how through prayer and studying The Lord has shown this to me. Please no bashing, if you disagree that is fine. I'm ever learning, but there is scriptural evidence that there is a place of torment and it is everlasting.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 8, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> Thinking outloud here as I study cause Hobbs has me into this. Check out Matt. 10 28. All my verses will come from KJV



If the soul and body are destroyed--- what's everlasting?


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## hobbs27 (Apr 8, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> This is how through prayer and studying The Lord has shown this to me. Please no bashing, if you disagree that is fine. I'm ever learning, but there is scriptural evidence that there is a place of torment and it is everlasting.



Brother Williams   No one will bash you for beliefs, but we do want to see that scriptural evidence.


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## M80 (Apr 8, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Brother Williams   No one will bash you for beliefs, but we do want to see that scriptural evidence.



I know brother. I reckon(I like that word cause Paul used it) that it's an everlasting destroying cause Jude verses 4-8 these people in verse 4 are goin to suffer the eternal fire in verse 7


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## hobbs27 (Apr 8, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> I know brother. I reckon(I like that word cause Paul used it) that it's an everlasting destroying cause Jude verses 4-8 these people in verse 4 are goin to suffer the eternal fire in verse 7



What happened to Sodom and Gomorrah which is set forth as an example? Were they not destroyed by God? Destroyed as in ceased to exist.


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## M80 (Apr 8, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> What happened to Sodom and Gomorrah which is set forth as an example? Were they not destroyed by God? Destroyed as in ceased to exist.



I see this as The Lord comparing sodom and Gomorrah people being compared with the fallen angels as being in eternal suffering. Likewise all these filthy dreamers. 

If the fallen angels are in everlasting chains under darkness, the bible says in verse 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah.

Then verse 8 says likewise also these


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## hobbs27 (Apr 8, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> I see this as The Lord comparing sodom and Gomorrah people being compared with the fallen angels as being in eternal suffering. Likewise all these filthy dreamers.
> 
> If the fallen angels are in everlasting chains under darkness, the bible says in verse 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah.
> 
> Then verse 8 says likewise also these




Ok, let me explain the Angels and I think you will agree.
The angels spoken of here are the sons of God that took daughters of men for wives in Genesis. Their offspring were the giants in those days spoken of in Genesis...all that aside look at the verse very close, they were to be in everlasting chains [ unto the judgement  of the great day]. Not eternal is it?


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## M80 (Apr 8, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Ok, let me explain the Angels and I think you will agree.
> The angels spoken of here are the sons of God that took daughters of men for wives in Genesis. Their offspring were the giants in those days spoken of in Genesis...all that aside look at the verse very close, they were to be in everlasting chains [ unto the judgement  of the great day]. Not eternal is it?



No that part isn't eternal, but if all these are with the fallen angels, where are they now???

Your title is correct, a challenge, I will study further.


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## oldfella1962 (Apr 8, 2014)

I can't even equate "love" with "eternal - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -ation."
It sounds like kind of a "good cop, bad cop" thing to me. 

I mean we all hate Hitler but eternal torture? I don't have it in me, especially since he's dead and can't harm anyone from beyond the grave. And to think someone who has a different belief (like Buddhism) will end up in the same place as Hitler - what a concept!


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## M80 (Apr 8, 2014)

Banjo Picker said:


> Thats what you did to my post about your thread dont say it wouldnt you I check and me an you were the only one on vewing at that time so if any one comes up  with there tread saying I AM A POTTY MOUTH it will be you doing it you been caugth. This is to hobbs27



You need to handle this with private messaging don't you think


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## M80 (Apr 8, 2014)

Alright Hobbs, I'm back up for the challenge

Matthew 25, verse 46. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. 

Kind of hard to argue that one coming from Jesus. 

And Mark 3:29. But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal  dammnation


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## hobbs27 (Apr 8, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> Alright Hobbs, I'm back up for the challenge
> 
> Matthew 25, verse 46. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
> 
> ...



Ronnie brought up matthew 25 earlier and I started breaking it down and failed to finish. These are some good verses to defend an eternal torture - I will look more into this and Mark 3: 29 and see if this is indeed what I'm looking for . I hope so because I'm already a heretic in one sense I sure don't want to make it a double whammy.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 8, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Ronnie brought up matthew 25 earlier and I started breaking it down and failed to finish. These are some good verses to defend an eternal torture - I will look more into this and Mark 3: 29 and see if this is indeed what I'm looking for . I hope so because I'm already a heretic in one sense I sure don't want to make it a double whammy.



If we could get you to become a non-trin and me and 1gr8bldr to become a preterist, we'd all three be triple heretics! Could these three topics be the "last days" teachings revealed that were lost for centuries?


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 8, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> Alright Hobbs, I'm back up for the challenge
> 
> Matthew 25, verse 46. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
> 
> ...


This Matt verse is the best I have seen... yet it could be looked at differently. One could say that the punishment  is everlasting, making point of the fact that it is irreversable, that punishment being death. But I do concede that it has merit. Yet considering that we have had to look so hard for verses to support the he11 doctrine, only to come up with one, I'll have to go with my interpretation


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 8, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> Thinking outloud here as I study cause Hobbs has me into this. Check out Matt. 10 28. All my verses will come from KJV



I'm reminded of John 3:16. Perished(destroyed, cease to exist) vs everlasting life.
How would you describe an eternity in he11? Although really bad, would not that be everlasting life?  It really boils down to what does the Bible say Jesus saved us from, death or eternal punishment. Did Jesus beat death or eternal punishment? Did Jesus overcome all death? Does sin equal death or eternal punishment?
I hope for everlasting life vs eternal death. To me Christianity means everlasting life with God & his Son vs eternal death. Yes I want both, the Father & the Son. I remember a verse telling me how to get both.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 8, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> I see this as The Lord comparing sodom and Gomorrah people being compared with the fallen angels as being in eternal suffering. Likewise all these filthy dreamers.
> 
> If the fallen angels are in everlasting chains under darkness, the bible says in verse 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah.
> 
> Then verse 8 says likewise also these



Is Sodom and Gomorrah still burning or was it left in ashes? How much of this fire & sulfur brimstone is about the earth being cleansed and replaced with a new heaven and earth?


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## hobbs27 (Apr 9, 2014)

About Mark 3:29

 I think I'll have to break the interpretaion down and see why there's such a difference in the kjv and nasb versions..look how it changes


Mark 3:29

New American Standard Bible (NASB)


29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”—


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 9, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> About Mark 3:29
> 
> I think I'll have to break the interpretaion down and see why there's such a difference in the kjv and nasb versions..look how it changes
> 
> ...



Pulpit Commentary

Verse 29. - Hath never forgiveness. Not that any sinner need despair of forgiveness through the fear that he may have committed this sin; for his repentance shows that his state of mind has never been one of entire enmity, and that he has not so grieved the Holy Spirit as to have been entirely forsaken by him. But is in danger of eternal darnation. The Greek words, according to the most approved reading, are ἀλλ ἔνοχός ἐστιν αἰωνίου ἁμαρτήματος: but is guilty of an eternal sin; thus showing that there are sins of which the effects and the punishment belong to eternity. He is bound by a chain or' sin from which he can never be loosed. (See St. John 9:41, "Therefore your sin remaineth.")

http://biblehub.com/mark/3-29.htm


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## M80 (Apr 9, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> About Mark 3:29
> 
> I think I'll have to break the interpretaion down and see why there's such a difference in the kjv and nasb versions..look how it changes
> 
> ...



This is where we have to part ways on this subject then cause what we can't discuss on this forum is about to kick in on me. It's been a great discussion


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## hobbs27 (Apr 9, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> This is where we have to part ways on this subject then cause what we can't discuss on this forum is about to kick in on me. It's been a great discussion



I'm not saying one is right and one is wrong, just that there is a difference that requires me to research the original text in which both were translated. You do research the original Hebrew/ Greek meanings of words you don't understand don't you?
 I will probably find both versions are stating the same fact, in different ways.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 9, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Pulpit Commentary
> 
> Verse 29. - Hath never forgiveness. Not that any sinner need despair of forgiveness through the fear that he may have committed this sin; for his repentance shows that his state of mind has never been one of entire enmity, and that he has not so grieved the Holy Spirit as to have been entirely forsaken by him. But is in danger of eternal darnation. The Greek words, according to the most approved reading, are ἀλλ ἔνοχός ἐστιν αἰωνίου ἁμαρτήματος: but is guilty of an eternal sin; thus showing that there are sins of which the effects and the punishment belong to eternity. He is bound by a chain or' sin from which he can never be loosed. (See St. John 9:41, "Therefore your sin remaineth.")
> 
> http://biblehub.com/mark/3-29.htm




The only sin that has no forgiveness, is eternal in that once committed , the individual must live with it forever--- not the individual will live forever or be tormented forever. 

This is the best I can define the translated meaning.... If we agree on this I will continue to work on matthew 25:46 when I can.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 9, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> The only sin that has no forgiveness, is eternal in that once committed , the individual must live with it forever--- not the individual will live forever or be tormented forever.
> 
> This is the best I can define the translated meaning.... If we agree on this I will continue to work on matthew 25:46 when I can.



I agree with your intepretation, he is forever bound by sin.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 9, 2014)

Some verses about non-believers dying:

Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Malachi 4:1&3
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts

Psalm 145:20
The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.

Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed; there will be no future for the wicked.

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

1 John 5:11-12
11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in he11.
("apollumi" means to perish, be destroyed, kill or caused to die.)


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## Ronnie T (Apr 9, 2014)

Whatever the ultimate decision of this thread, hel l will be worse than imagined.
And heaven will continue to be an indescribable eternal home in God's presence.
.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 9, 2014)

Ronnie T said:


> Whatever the ultimate decision of this thread, hel l will be worse than imagined.
> And heaven will continue to be an indescribable eternal home in God's presence.
> .



 You won't get any argument from me on that. I have been thinking of the irony though of annihilation. Atheist will get just what they expect, and Christians will get what they expect...or more for each.


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 9, 2014)

I think non believers will die, just as a dog does, no insult intended. And those who have received the eternal Spirit of God will live. My only question with this is how do extreme evil people get the same as a good ole boy [death] whom just did not believe. This has me pondering.


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 9, 2014)

I think the picture of the flood applies. Noah, a preacher of righteousness, was ignored. As Paul says, "how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation". The ark was lifted up above the seas just as we will be lifted up, picture of a sort of rapture, Christ the ark, us in Christ, protected from the coming wrath. The earth was destroyed by water, the present day judgement reserved for fire with Sodom  as an example. God cleansed the world of those who had become one with the angels and their offspring. In the future, God will cleanse the world of those who have become one with the antichrist


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 9, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> I think non believers will die, just as a dog does, no insult intended. And those who have received the eternal Spirit of God will live. My only question with this is how do extreme evil people get the same as a good ole boy [death] whom just did not believe. This has me pondering.



Do you believe  the non-believer will be aware of his judgement and death by fire? If he11 burns eternally for Satan, maybe each person burns a different amount of time.
The sea and the grave will give up their dead for the judgement.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 9, 2014)

Ronnie T said:


> And, everlasting death or everlasting destruction doesn't mean dying.  It means everlasting punishment outside the presence of God.
> 
> *Matthew 25:41–46
> 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me ...
> ...



This is the one that if you want to believe in a place of eternal torment, you better hang on to. It can be argued against and I will present the argument, but it's ultimately going to be up to the individual as to what they believe. 

 I've enjoyed this crash course in he11, fire, & brimstone but everything must come to an end ( unless it has been preserved by the word of God or saved by the blood of Christ!) 

 The argument for matthew 25 not being about a place of eternal torment, is about the torment being eternal....in other words the punishment of death is forever! Here's what Edward Fudge said on the matter, and if anyone hasn't seen those youtube videos 1gr8bldr provided I suggest you watch them when time affords.

"_ There are two eternal destinies according to Jesus: eternal life and eternal punishment (Matt. 25:46). Both are eternal because they belong to the Age to Come, and also because they do not have an end. We know what "life" means, but what is the form of this "punishment"?  It is the destruction of both soul and body (Matt. 10:28), a destruction that is eternal (2 Thes. 1:9). It is eternal, total, capital punishment that will never be reversed._"

Thanks for all that participated in helping me , you can carry on with the thread if you like but I've troubled myself enough about it for now.

   One thing to add ....Ronnie, not one time in the epistles is he11 preached to convince people they should repent! I thought you might think that is interesting or of some merit since you base how we should be on the teachings of the apostles.


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## SemperFiDawg (Apr 9, 2014)

Two good articles on - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -.  They may help clear up some of the common misconceptions.

http://www.focusonthefamily.com/faith/becoming_a_christian/is_christ_the_only_way/is_- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -_real.aspx

Doesn't eternal - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - seem like cosmic overkill? Couldn't God reform bad people or just annihilate them? After all, why punish people forever for one limited lifetime of behavior? And wouldn't annihilation be preferable to eternal suffering?
byRobert Velarde

Overview
What About Those Who Have Never Heard?
What About Hypocrites in the Church?
Is - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - Real?
Don't All Good People Go to Heaven?
How Can God Allow So Much Evil and Suffering?
Next Steps / Related Information
Is - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - real? Do Christians really believe in it? Why would a loving God send people to - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - forever? These and other questions about the doctrine of - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - may not be pleasant to address, but they often come up as objections to Christianity, even puzzling Christians at times.

This article will address some key questions related to - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -, explore and evaluate some objections to it, look at what the Bible has to say about - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -, and touch on how the doctrine relates to the nature of God as well as human nature.

Defining - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -
Before delving into the topic, it will help to understand what is meant by the term. Theologically speaking, the doctrine of - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - relates to personal eschatology. While eschatology is popularly known in relation to end-times events and various interpretations of the book of Revelation, it also encompasses what may be termed the "final state" of individual souls. In other words, is our ultimate and eternal destiny heaven or - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - Despite God's offer of redemption and salvation through Christ, not everyone will be redeemed, resulting in those who reject God being destined for - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -.

Responding to - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -
While some people may grant that - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - is required for extremely evil individuals, expecting some sense of justice, there is often tension about seemingly "good" people going to - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - (addressed in the next article). There's certainly an emotional component to the objections, too.

For instance, doesn't eternal - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - seem like cosmic overkill? Couldn't God reform bad people or just annihilate them? After all, why punish people forever for one limited lifetime of behavior? And wouldn't annihilation be preferable to eternal suffering? These objections may seem reasonable at first glance, but as we will see, they ignore or fail to understand key aspects of God's nature as well as human nature.

In short, God has made efforts to reform people. Each of us is given a lifetime to reform and embrace God through Christ. Unfortunately, some reject God and His truths, choosing their own path rather than God's. As for eternal suffering being overkill in reference to limited or temporal behavior, this fails to understand the nature of sin and its relation to a holy God.

When it comes to suggesting annihilation as opposed to eternal suffering in - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -, again this seems like a plausible objection. It fails, however, to understand that God is a God of life. Human beings are made in His image (Genesis 1:26, 27). Therefore, every person is of inestimable value. First, annihilationism does not fit the biblical evidence. Second, as has been noted, it fails to understand the worth God places on human life. Third, God respects human choice.

But couldn't God have created a world without - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - Any answer to this question is somewhat hypothetical. However, given that God is all-knowing, all-loving, and all-powerful, it is certainly possible that He could have created such a world. But would such a world be the best possible world? To create a world without - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - would require impinging on human freedom, essentially creating a world of robots or a world where our choices would be forcibly altered in order to avoid sin as an actual (such as in deed) or a potential (as in thought).

The Bible and - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -
- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - is not an easy belief to accept. Even a seasoned Christian like C.S. Lewis said of it, "There is no doctrine which I would more willingly remove from Christianity than this, if it lay in my power. But it has the full support of Scripture and, specially, of Our Lord's own words; it has always been held by Christendom; and it has the support of reason." 1 According to Lewis, then, - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - is a biblically supported doctrine, has been accepted by the Christian church throughout the centuries, and in his assessment is also reasonable.

What surprises some who object to the doctrine of - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - is the fact that Jesus had a lot to say in support of the belief. In fact, scholars have determined that he said more about - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - than about heaven. Many other verses could be cited,2 but this excerpt from Matthew 25:31-43 (NIV) offers a representative example of Christ speaking about eternal - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -:

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left … Then he will say to those on his left, "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me."

- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - and the Nature of God
Christ, then, had much to say about - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -. Rather than being cruel, however, His intention then and now is to offer a way out of such a horrible destiny. But people must be willing to embrace this opportunity.

Another aspect of the doctrine of - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - that is key to understanding it has to do with the nature of God. He is all-loving, but also completely sinless, holy and just. This means that anything unholy cannot enter His direct presence. As a result, those who fail to accept His truths must reside somewhere else (i.e., - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -). God is also loving, but this characteristic means that He does not force belief upon anyone, but instead seeks to persuade us.

- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - and Human Nature
Biblically speaking, human nature is no longer what it once was when God created everything, including human beings and deemed it "very good" (Genesis 1:31). Now fallen, we are far short of our former glory. Our tendency now is to break God's moral standards or, in short, to sin (see, for instance, Romans 3:23). Is - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - real? Yes, but fortunately God has provided the way of salvation for us through Christ. In the end, however, it is up to us to follow or reject His offer.

While - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - is not a pleasant topic to address, it is important to understand it in biblical context.3 The alternative to - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -, however, gives us cause to rejoice. In the next article in this series we'll address the question, "Don't all good people go to heaven?"

Copyright 2009 Robert Velarde. Used by permission. All rights reserved.
1C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain (Macmillan, 1962), p. 118.
2See also, for example, Matthew 5:29-30; 10:28; 11:23; 13:40-41; 13:49-50; 22:13; Mark 9:43-48; Luke 12:5; and 16:19-31. These verses are compiled, along with many others, in chapter 10 of Norman Geisler's Systematic Theology, Volume Four: Church and Last Things (Bethany House, 2005), pp. 330-334.
3For more on the doctrine of - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - and answers to objections see Christopher W. Morgan and Robert A. Peterson, editors, - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - Under Fire: Modern Scholarship Reinvents Eternal Punishment (Zondervan, 2004). Also see the chapter on - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - in The Problem of Pain by C.S. Lewis, the chapter on - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - referenced in Note 2 in Geisler's Systematic Theology, Volume Four, and Objection #6 in Lee Strobel's The Case for Faith (Zondervan, 2000).


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## SemperFiDawg (Apr 9, 2014)

And two

Don't All Good People Go to Heaven?
Those who argue that all good people go to heaven then make the case that a loving God would not turn away good and sincere individuals. Instead, they reason, it's obvious that He would allow them into heaven.
byRobert Velarde
Next Article in Series:
Previous Article
Next Article

Overview
What About Those Who Have Never Heard?
What About Hypocrites in the Church?
Is - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - Real?
Don't All Good People Go to Heaven?
How Can God Allow So Much Evil and Suffering?
Next Steps / Related Information
In John 6:38, Jesus said, "For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me" (NIV). Six times in John 6 it is stressed that Jesus came down from heaven, underscoring not only his divine origin, but also that his purpose is to do God's will. The Greek word translated as "heaven" is ouranos and in context refers to the dwelling place of God. In Christian theology it is also where the redeemed will dwell.

There is a common perception that so long as one leads a generally good life, they will get into heaven. But the question, "Don't all good people go to heaven?" presupposes a number of points. First, there is usually the assumption that God exists and that He is all loving. Second, there is an assumption that although some "bad" people may need punishment, most people are generally "good" and, as such, are entitled to heaven. Third, there is the view that entrance into heaven is on the basis of merit (our works) rather than God's grace. Fourth, related to the question about heaven is the implicit suggestion that - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -, if it exists at all, is really only for a marginal few who are responsible for particularly evil acts. Let's briefly look at these points.

God Exists and is All Loving
That God exists is an obvious component of the Christian worldview. He not only exists, but is also creator, designer and sustainer of the universe and everything in it. Not only is He ever present, all knowing, and all powerful, God is also all loving. He is a personal being active in His creation, but distinct from it. Those who argue that all good people go to heaven then make the case that a loving God would not turn away good and sincere individuals. Instead, they reason, it's obvious that He would allow them into heaven.

This position, however, fails to consider the broad spectrum of the nature of God. While we may glean general principles about Him from what He has made (Romans 1:20) such as His existence, power and moral nature, we learn specifics about Him from the Bible—His special revelation. It is here that we learn that God is indeed merciful (Deuteronomy 4:31; Daniel 9:9), but also just (Job 34:12; Psalm 45:6; Isaiah 30:18). He is also completely holy. These aspects of His nature, particularly his justice and holiness, mean that anything even remotely sinful cannot dwell in God's presence.

Are Most People Good?
The next assumption is that although some "bad" people may need punishment, most are generally "good" and entitled to heaven. The position that views people as generally good and entitled to heaven tends to make the error of viewing human nature as basically good. Biblical evidence as well as experiential evidence show this view to be false. As the Bible explains, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9, KJV). Psalm 51:5 comes across even stronger: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

Biblically speaking, most people are not "good." In fact, when compared to God's standards of holiness, no one is "good." To one degree or another, we all "fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). This does not mean that we are always actively engaged in doing evil or participating in depraved acts all the time. But it does mean that in our very nature we are "fallen," in rebellion against God and incapable of saving ourselves.

Works and Grace
The view that entrance into heaven is on the basis of merit (our works) rather than God's grace is also common. But a works based system of salvation is foreign to the message of Christ. Whether or not one enters heaven is not dependent on a continuum of good and evil, wherein we hope our good acts outweigh our bad ones. While this perspective may be common, it is biblically incorrect. As Ephesians 2:8-9 reads, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God — not by works, so that no one can boast" (NIV). Grace is God's unmerited favor, demonstrated most fully in the sacrifice of Christ. In short, the only way to heaven is through Jesus, "the way and the truth and the life" (John 14:6).

Those who argue that all good people go to heaven often suggest that if - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - exists, it is reserved for a minority of particularly evil people. But since most people are not so evil, they argue, it makes sense to claim that all good people will get to heaven regardless of any minor lapses in moral behavior. Does this reasoning hold up? It does so only if it fails to take into account the nature of God, the nature of sin, and what the Bible has to say on the subject. As we've noted, God is holy, but He is also just. God's justice requires the reality of - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - for the unredeemed. The nature of sin extends, biblically speaking, to everyone. Salvation is not by works, but by God's grace through Christ.

What if you're sincere?
What about sincere and good people who are not Christian? 1 Won't God welcome them into heaven? This assumes that sincerity is enough to correspond to truth, when in reality it is not. As Proverbs 16:25 reads, "There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death." Sincerity will only get someone so far, then it must face reality. No matter how sincere someone may be about being able to fly by frantically flapping their arms, their sincerity will not keep them in the air. Besides, if someone is actively believing something that is not true and, as a result, is implicitly if not explicitly rejecting God, it seems odd for God to welcome such a person into heaven. Sincerity, then, is not enough. One also has to believe what is true.

"No one is good – except God alone"
Like the man who approached Jesus and used the word "good," perhaps without giving it much thought, we too need to be careful how we use and define our terms. As Jesus answered, "No one is good – except God alone" (Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19). Do all "good" people go to heaven? Since no one is good as defined by God, the answer is, "No." Those who enter heaven do so not on the basis of merit, but on the basis of God's grace as bestowed by Jesus Christ. We can't work our way to heaven or claim to be without sin (1 John 1:8). Instead, we must humbly submit to God, turn from our wrong behavior, and turn to Christ for salvation.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 9, 2014)

The "fire" is eternal. Does the Bible say one's soul or body will burn forever in this eternal fire?


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## Ronnie T (Apr 9, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> This is the one that if you want to believe in a place of eternal torment, you better hang on to. It can be argued against and I will present the argument, but it's ultimately going to be up to the individual as to what they believe.
> 
> I've enjoyed this crash course in he11, fire, & brimstone but everything must come to an end ( unless it has been preserved by the word of God or saved by the blood of Christ!)
> 
> ...



    Completely agree.
Hel l, and knowledge of it, will never help draw an unbeliever to believe in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ.  I've never preached a sermon on the subject of hel l.  Never will.
.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 9, 2014)

Reading verses about he11 it appears evil people will go there. Does the Bible show verses where non believers will be thrown into the lake of Fire?

You have heard that it was said, “You shall not commit adultery.” But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away; it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to be thrown into he11. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to go into he11. (Matthew 5:27-31)

 Are we really supposed to believe that no Christian man has ever experienced such feelings when seeing a beautiful woman to whom he was not married? Or perhaps most Christians do not believe that Jesus meant it literally? Yet they do believe in a literal he11 with literal endless fire. 
In any case, these verses about “he11” have nothing to do with what one believes. Nowhere in the Sermon on the Mount is he11 mentioned as a consequence of failing to believe in the divinity of Jesus.
I guess I'd like verses stating non-believers go to He11 vs evil doers. Is there a difference as for as what the Bible says about he11?


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 9, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> The "fire" is eternal. Does the Bible say one's soul or body will burn forever in this eternal fire?


I don't think I believe that the fire is eternal.... more like the result is eternal. In this age we have time to repent, but no longer once judgement comes, irreversable. I think the fire will go out and the earth now will be called "the new earth" The kingdom of heaven.. on earth. Just my thoughts, and without having asked if it "works" or should I say, fits scripture


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 9, 2014)

Whichever side people fall on, I respect it, because I do see how it could be interpreted that way... but interesting that it is not a slam dunk doctrine as people assume


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## M80 (Apr 9, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Reading verses about he11 it appears evil people will go there. Does the Bible show verses where non believers will be thrown into the lake of fire





Come'on Art, the bible clearly says in revelation that whosever name wasn't in the book of life is goin to be cast in the lake of fire. 

Whose names do you think are in the book of life.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 10, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> Come'on Art, the bible clearly says in revelation that whosever name wasn't in the book of life is goin to be cast in the lake of fire.
> 
> Whose names do you think are in the book of life.



When using just one or two verses we are suddenly required to believe what goes along with that. Would you also believe in predestination as the Book of Life was written before time? 
Moving back a few verses in Rev 20:13 says:
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and he11 delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Do you believe ones "works" is what gets them into the Book of Life? What was the outcome of theses dead people's judgement?

Rev21:7
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Do you believe one must "overcome" to get their name in the Book of Life?

Rev21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and *****mongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Do you believe this is just another way of describing non-believers?
I gave three different verses from Revelation above that show people will be thrown into the Lake of Fire based on their works, not overcoming, and/or evil people.


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## SemperFiDawg (Apr 10, 2014)

One thing that is apparent after reading through this thread is that people are gonna believe what they WANT to believe.



> Just my thoughts, and without having asked if it "works" or should I say, fits scripture





> When using just one or two verses we are suddenly required to believe what goes along with that.



It begs the question " Why read scripture in the first place?"  If you don't trust it's accuracy or are going to interpret it according to your fancy, why even waste your time on it?  What's different in what you are doing than what the serpent did when he said to Eve " Did God really say.....?"


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 10, 2014)

The difficulty of recognizing how the Bible is for all Believers, but was written to different audiences is part of our challenge.
The Bible was written for me but not to me. We must look at the Bible as a whole instead of a few verses at a time. 
Reading about the Book of Life in Revelation sounds like Predestination is the only way to get in the Book of Life. Revelation verses make it appear people are judged by their works and are then thrown into the Lake of Fire. I could gather from Revelation that only evil people are thrown into the Lake of Fire.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 10, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> One thing that is apparent after reading through this thread is that people are gonna believe what they WANT to believe"



I gave up on what I wanted to believe in this thread. It was not easy, and has caused me some grief, but one must ask themselves on any religious topic, " What does the Bible say". On this topic the bible said he11 was an OT holding place for the righteous and unrighteous. He11 was a city dump outside Jerusalem, and he11 was a place that God bound fallen Angels till the day of judgement....It does NOT say he11 is a place of eternal torment, and if such a place exists it is not called he11 in the bible.
 I read and I study the scriptures to know my Lord better, and the Bible tells me that my Lord is The Truth..


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## SemperFiDawg (Apr 10, 2014)

As to the OP



> Can you defend our belief in an eternal place of dam nation ie. he11, using scripture alone?



Rev 20:10

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


Rev. 20:15


15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Mark 9:47

47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -, 48 where

“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
    and the fire is not quenched.’[d]


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## SemperFiDawg (Apr 10, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> The difficulty of recognizing how the Bible is for all Believers, but was written to different audiences is part of our challenge.
> The Bible was written for me but not to me. We must look at the Bible as a whole instead of a few verses at a time.
> Reading about the Book of Life in Revelation sounds like Predestination is the only way to get in the Book of Life. Revelation verses make it appear people are judged by their works and are then thrown into the Lake of Fire. I could gather from Revelation that only evil people are thrown into the Lake of Fire.



Again.  It either contains immutable truth or it doesn't.  
It's either true or a farce.  You can't read whatever you like into it without destroying its validity, because you have none to impart into it.  It stands alone or it falls.  There's no "maybe it means this or perhaps it means that" when it comes to its central tenets.  I would suggest the doctrine of a actual, eternal punishment i.e. He11
is one of those core tenets.


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## SemperFiDawg (Apr 10, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I gave up on what I wanted to believe in this thread. It was not easy, and has caused me some grief, but one must ask themselves on any religious topic, " What does the Bible say". On this topic the bible said he11 was an OT holding place for the righteous and unrighteous. He11 was a city dump outside Jerusalem, and he11 was a place that God bound fallen Angels till the day of judgement....It does NOT say he11 is a place of eternal torment, and if such a place exists it is not called he11 in the bible.
> I read and I study the scriptures to know my Lord better, and the Bible tells me that my Lord is The Truth..



My question would be "Does your Bible end with the OT?"  The Jews were so misguided (and they were experts of the OT). they missed the Messiah.  What does that say?
Doesn't the NT contain New Revelations?  Again Jesus had quiet a bit to say about - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - and it's not vague.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 10, 2014)

“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’

The fire is never quenched.
If I have an all day BBQ and cook various kinds of meat all day, does this mean I cook all of the meat for the whole day? It must since it's an all day BBQ!    

 Sodom and Gomorrah are literally still burning in an eternal flame?

The worms have an eternal punishement too? They must it's literally in the Bible. Worms never die.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 10, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Again.  It either contains immutable truth or it doesn't.
> It's either true or a farce.  You can't read whatever you like into it without destroying its validity, because you have none to impart into it.  It stands alone or it falls.  There's no "maybe it means this or perhaps it means that" when it comes to its central tenets.  I would suggest the doctrine of a actual, eternal punishment i.e. He11
> is one of those core tenets.



That's the whole reason for the OP. He wants proof with Bible verses. He hasn't recieved one. You are guilty of what you are accusing others. You are adding to the word of God by your very interpretation instead of just saying "I don't know."


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 10, 2014)

Is this where it starts?

Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 10, 2014)

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The central tenet is salvation equals everlasting life vs everlasting death.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 10, 2014)

Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Malachi 4:1&3
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts

Psalm 145:20
The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.

Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed; there will be no future for the wicked.

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

1 John 5:11-12
11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in he11.
("apollumi" means to perish, be destroyed, kill or caused to die.) 


I would like one verse that goes against perishing,being burnt up, dying, being consumed, no future, or being turned into ashes. Do these terms denote eternal punishment or eternal death?


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## hobbs27 (Apr 10, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> “‘the worms that eat them do not die,
> and the fire is not quenched.’
> 
> The fire is never quenched.
> ...



Maggots don't die naturally, they are transformed into flys and then die. 
Gehenna was a city dump that smoldered and burned day and night, also a place where the worm ( maggots) fed on organic material.....This is the place Jesus warned the Jews if they did not enter the kingdom of heaven they would be cast into...guess what? Many Jews that did not become Christian and did not heed the warning of Jesus about the signs, stayed in Jerusalem and were slain by the Roman army....1.1 million of them were killed. The Romans picked up the bodies and threw them in Gehenna just as Jesus had said.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 10, 2014)

How is the word immortality used in the Bible? What do we gain by recieving immortality? What is the opposite of immortality?
Why did Satan say  "you shall not surely die?"

Immortality in Greek:
I. Biblical usages - NASB (exhaustive)

    A. Greek word athanasia
         1. Meaning - "no death"
         2. Usages
              I Cor. 15:53 - "this mortal must put on immortality"
              I Cor. 15:54 - "when this mortal shall have put on immortality"
              I Tim. 6:16 - "King of Kings and Lord of Lords; who alone possesses immortality..."
    B. Greek words aphtharsia and aphthartos
         1. Meaning - "no destruction, no corruption, imperishable"
         2. Usages
              Rom. 2:7 - "those who seek for glory, honor and immortality, (will get) eternal life"
              I Tim. 1:17 - "believe in Him (Jesus) for eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal,                   invisible, the only God..."
              II Tim. 1:10 - "our Savior, Christ Jesus, abolished death, and brought life and immortality                   to light through the gospel"


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## SemperFiDawg (Apr 10, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> That's the whole reason for the OP. He wants proof with Bible verses. He hasn't recieved one. You are guilty of what you are accusing others. You are adding to the word of God by your very interpretation instead of just saying "I don't know."



But I do know.  That's my point.  I know and you should too.  It's right there in black and white.  It doesn't take someone knowing the history of the Jerusalem waste and sanitation works to read the Bible and figure out that He11 is an actual place of eternal torment.  A tribesman in any remote village upon reading the Bible would not question it.  It's that plain, yet somehow here where we are so much more educated, now it's up to your individual interpretations.  How is that?


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## hobbs27 (Apr 10, 2014)

The word he11 is not in Gods word. Literally anywhere.


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## SemperFiDawg (Apr 10, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> The word he11 is not in Gods word. Literally anywhere.



What version are you referencing because this is what I came up with after a quick search: the version and beside it the number of times the term "he11" was used.  This doesn't take into account any other  references like lake of fire, abyss, etc.

KJB	54. Old and New Testament
NKJV	32
NLT	17
NIV	14
ESV	14
NASV	13
ASV	13
RSV	13
DBY	12
HNV	0
YLT	0


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## hobbs27 (Apr 10, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> What version are you referencing because this is what I came up with after a quick search: the version and beside it the number of times the term "he11" was used.  This doesn't take into account any other  references like lake of fire, abyss, etc.
> 
> KJB	54. Old and New Testament
> NKJV	32
> ...



Youngs Literal translation is the one I was thinking of because it is a literal translation, but as I said , even in my kjv when it is used it's not used literal because the Greek words (4 of them) that are used all have different literal meanings than what the English definition of he11 is.

Edited: To prevent a senseless argument on word origins...there's actually 3 Greek words and one Hebrew word the Hebrew word being Sheol which is the same place as hades.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 10, 2014)

I believe I'm born mortal and I'm given immortality by God for my belief in Jesus. Without Jesus I would perish. I don't necessarily have immortality just by being born a human. 
Eternal/everlasting life or death are the correct terms to use to describe life or death. Being mortal I'm gonna have an eternal death unless I believe in Jesus. Through Jesus I will not die but have everlasting life.  If after my resurrection, I'm saved, I will receive everlasting life. If not I will receive eternal death which is my punishment for not believing. I will perish and be destroyed. Believing in Jesus is the only way to escape the eternal punishment of the second death. 
I believe it's eternal punishment not eternally punished. My punishment of dying in a fire is eternal. The actual act of dying isn't eternal. The actual act of dying may be longer for evil people vs unbelievers. This is why I was questioning verses about evil people being thrown into the lake of fire against verses about unbelievers being thrown into the lake of fire.
The sea and the grave will give up their dead. They will be judged by their works. Does this judgement save any of them from the lake of fire?


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 10, 2014)

If an unbeliever is never gonna die the second death then it can't be called "death." You can't burn forever and never die and call it death.
Eventually one must burn to ashes to be considered dead. This might take one week or 10 billion years but to be eternally dead one must eventually die. You've got to really be dead to die a permanent death. You've got to eventually perish, even in He11 to not have everlasting life. He11 doesn't equal death if you are burning forever and you aren't never gonna die. This would be called everlasting life in He11. The opposite of everlasting life is everlasting death. One is either granted immortality by God or one stays MORTAL. Mortal people DIE.
Everlasting life means you are alive forever, everlasting death means you are dead forever. It doesn't mean you are in the act of dying forever. That would be called eternally dying. It's only two choices, you are either alive in Christ or you are dead, everlasting life or destruction, mortal or immortal.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 11, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I believe I'm born mortal and I'm given immortality by God for my belief in Jesus. Without Jesus I would perish. I don't necessarily have immortality just by being born a human.
> Eternal/everlasting life or death are the correct terms to use to describe life or death. ?



I wonder...are you now one of us OSAS?


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 11, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I wonder...are you now one of us OSAS?



Well I kinda go back and forth on OSAS. I usually follow a OSAS belief but then I read about who will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Like Christians who recieve the Mark of the Beast. They didn't endure to the end:

Who will be thrown into this ETERNAL FIRE?

Those who do not have their names listed in the book of life (Rev. 20:15).

The antichrist and false prophet (Rev. 19:20).

Satan (Rev. 20:10).

The cowardly, unbelieving, vile, murderers, sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, idolaters, liars, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexual offenders, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, slanderers, and swindlers (Rev. 21:8; 1 Cor. 6:9,10). See also Gal. 5:19-21.

Those who are not Biblically born again (Jn. 3:3-7).

Those who didn't forgive others who sinned against them (Mt. 6:14,15; 18:22-35).

Those who begin with Jesus, but don't remain in Him because they afterwards believed and accepted a wrong plan of salvation (1 Jn. 2:24,25; 2 Jn. 9; Gal. 5:2,4; 1 Cor. 15:1,2).

Those who don't produce fruit (Mt. 25:14-46; Jn. 15:5,6), endure to the end (Mt. 10:22 cf. Jn. 6:66) or don't continue to believe, but "fall away" in time of TESTING (Lk. 8:13 cf. Mt. 13:21). [Persecution, in one form or another, is a TEST that comes to ALL godly people (2 Tim. 3:12; Lk. 6:22; Jn. 15:20).]

All who receive the mark of the beast and worship his image during the time of the Antichrist, which includes former Christians who do NOT patiently endure and remain faithful to Jesus (Rev. 14:9-12; 13:8-10).

Everything that causes sin and ALL who do evil (Mt. 13:41,42).

All who are self-seeking, reject the truth and follow evil (Rom. 2:8).

http://www.amightywind.com/he11/lakeoffire.htm


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 11, 2014)

Revelation 20:14  
And death and he11/Hades/grave were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

I understand the concept of Satan burning forever in the Lake of Fire. He is an eternal being. I'm a mortal being only to recieve immortaliy from God's grace. That makes me different concerning the Lake of Fire.
My question is concerning the verse above, why would death and the grave need to burn forever? Some believe because Satan burns forever in the Lake of Fire, that anything else thrown into it, will burn forever.
So when God destroys death, why does it need to burn forever?


1 Corinthians 15:26 
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 11, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Again.  It either contains immutable truth or it doesn't.
> It's either true or a farce.  You can't read whatever you like into it without destroying its validity, because you have none to impart into it.  It stands alone or it falls.  There's no "maybe it means this or perhaps it means that" when it comes to its central tenets.  I would suggest the doctrine of a actual, eternal punishment i.e. He11
> is one of those core tenets.



I like what Steve Wholberg(7th Day Adventist) says about understanding the Bible correctly:

Let me clarify: the Bible DOES NOT contradict itself. These are only APPARENT contradictions. The solution is to examine what the whole Bible says about the fate of the lost, discover its overall teaching, and then to closely analyse the difficult verses until we understand them correctly. Once we do, we will discover that everything fits and makes perfect sense.

http://www.thetruthabouthe11.org/


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 11, 2014)

Does He11 Burn Forever?

Will he11 burn forever, or will its flames finally cease smouldering? To discover the correct answer, we must accept what the Bible says above the opinions of men. Do you agree? I hope so. As we dive into this controversial topic, let me make my personal position clear. I believe God’s Word above popular theories.

That said, first of all, the subject requires close examination, for some texts appear contradictory. In Matthew 25:41, Jesus Christ warned that unsaved sinners will enter “the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” Many read this and say, “That settles it for me! The lost will sizzle forever. Don’t even try to convince me otherwise.” Yet Jesus Christ also declared, “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life” (John 3:16, italics added). So which is it? Will the da*med   roast eternally in “everlasting fire,” or finally “perish,” and thus cease to exist?

Another example of apparent contradiction concerns the fate of Lucifer himself. The book of Revelation says that “The devil,” along with “the beast” will “be tormented day and night forever” in the lake of fire (see Revelation 20:10). Some respond, “There’s more proof! Satan will never cease frying like an egg in a skillet.” Yet Ezekiel chapter 28 reveals a different picture. Initially discussing the ancient “king of Tyre” (Ezekiel 28:12), God’s prophet then looks behind the scenes and identifies Lucifer himself, “the anointed cherub” (verse 14), who inhabited “Eden, the garden of God” (verse 13), and who was originally “perfect in [his] ways from the day [he] was created,” until “iniquity was found in [him]” (verse 15). Moving forward to this fallen angel’s final fate, God declares, “I turned you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all who saw you… You have become a horror, and shall be no more forever” (verses 18 and 19, italics added). Again, which is it? Will Satan be “tormented day and night” throughout endless ages, or will he become “ashes,” and “be no more forever”?

http://www.thetruthabouthe11.org/


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 13, 2014)

Hobbs and Art, isn't it interesting how you can change your view on something, anything biblically related, that at one time you would have argued against. I look back on the traditional cleansing that I have come through. I fought it all the way to where I am now


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## hobbs27 (Apr 13, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hobbs and Art, isn't it interesting how you can change your view on something, anything biblically related, that at one time you would have argued against. I look back on the traditional cleansing that I have come through. I fought it all the way to where I am now



 Its not easy giving up on what you have been taught and come to believe "faithfully" for years. I truly thought someone would have put forth a good biblical argument for eternal torment. Its just not there, plain and simple.

 These words ring in my head everytime I am questioned about or question a religous topic, " What does the Bible say".  I think Ronnie was the first to hit me with this comment, so he's partially to blame for my new outlook on Christianity.


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## Israel (Apr 13, 2014)

If death be death and life be life, was I "gone" when dead in sins and trespasses?

And what of mom and dad...in the day they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
I have a brother named Seth. Do the dead bear children?


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## centerpin fan (Apr 13, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> ... people are gonna believe what they WANT to believe.



The truest statement ever uttered on this forum. ^^^


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 13, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> The truest statement ever uttered on this forum. ^^^


This is actually not true. I suspect that Hobbs wanted to validate his long held belief.... yet failed to do so.  When I quit believing in the trinity, someone might have said the same thing, yet I wanted to be wrong, I studied everything I could for two years trying to shore up this long held belief that was crumbling under me. I was almost in a sort of depression, trying to hold on to my fellowship and traditions. I feel for Hobbs, cause I know this path is not an easy one. And if he is like me, he feels freedom to voice these differences on this forum, but within my circle of friends, I keep these things to myself, LOL, a closet heretic


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 13, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> The truest statement ever uttered on this forum. ^^^



I too want to believe in the Trinity. I also want to believe in Election. Unfortunately I can't.
One day I might believe in Preterism. If I do it won't be because I want too.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 13, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hobbs and Art, isn't it interesting how you can change your view on something, anything biblically related, that at one time you would have argued against. I look back on the traditional cleansing that I have come through. I fought it all the way to where I am now



I agree, it's not something I chose lightly. I would have never dreamed I would believe anything differently than what I was taught at an early age. It all started when I tried to find things in the Bible that I couldn't find. 
I'm beginning to believe the New Testament "is" the Holy Spirit.


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## gordon 2 (Apr 14, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Its not easy giving up on what you have been taught and come to believe "faithfully" for years. I truly thought someone would have put forth a good biblical argument for eternal torment. Its just not there, plain and simple.
> 
> These words ring in my head everytime I am questioned about or question a religous topic, " What does the Bible say".  I think Ronnie was the first to hit me with this comment, so he's partially to blame for my new outlook on Christianity.




This is probably off topic by now... but did someone suggest Matthew 25: 41-46.

I think that a simple  biblical argument for eternal punishment is that some will be glorified for the general resurrection, and others won't.

Now this begs the question(s) surrounding what is meant to be glorified or "the glory of" and if they are the same? Fundamentally my faith instinct tells me to start when Adam was the glory of God and Eve the glory of Adam or the glory both Adam and God. Perhaps...

Philippians 3:21 - Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
----------------
I don't know but my born again spirit sees in this verse the Spirit at the creation of man and his word of dominion over all the creatures gifted to him. And so eternal torment would be, due to the refusal of salvation, the world and the heavens upside down, whereby creation's textures subdue eternally, by default, such a man.

Or perhaps put in a more silly fashion, eternal torment would be where all the beasts of the earth, by their design and organization, had in and to their appointed dominion an ape, a cowering and fearing form with a stick, called man. Now man would no longer be called man, man being a name to himself and his Creator. Man would be named by beasts as beasts name the creatures they have dominion over, as much as beasts can do this.

Lets just say to the bear, a man would be a big worm similar to the much smaller worms who hide in the rings of woods and the barks of wood or under clefts of rocks. Therefore man as concerns life would know only to suffer having no other perspective but suffering and preoccupation at the claws of beasts and be but integral to the design of their kingdoms and their lives--man having an existence not fit to call life, ---not even a hit of him fit to the apocrypha of existence his lot, if such a thing could be . A man with ears never hearing that even the birds surrounding sing in their days and pray in their hopes by faith in their Redeemer. .


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 14, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> This is probably off topic by now... but did someone suggest Matthew 25: 41-46.
> 
> I think that a simple  biblical argument for eternal punishment is that some will be glorified for the general resurrection, and others won't.
> .





Eternal Punishment Versus Eternal Punishing. Perishing as in John 3:16 would be Eternal Punishment.


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## gordon 2 (Apr 14, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Eternal Punishment Versus Eternal Punishing. Perishing as in John 3:16 would be Eternal Punishment.




I think that John 3:16 speaks "to be lost" for the fall. Man knows even in this state that he has access to a relationship with the Devine.

Perhaps on the Eternal Punishment which follows from the general resurrection and  the last judgement, on the otherhand, there is no hope of such access.  Shared theological contemplation, union and communion does not exist, because the "deposit of faith" in this our world today, a prerequisite to glorification, was squandered. Prayers in this case, even invoked with hindsight like it was for the Rich Man in Lasurus and the Rich Man  , are in vain for him. Perhaps.


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## centerpin fan (Apr 14, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm beginning to believe the New Testament "is" the Holy Spirit.



A book that can be purchased on Amazon is the Third Person of the Trinity?


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## centerpin fan (Apr 14, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm beginning to believe the New Testament "is" the Holy Spirit.




Let's get the opinion of a noted theologian:


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## gordon 2 (Apr 14, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> A book that can be purchased on Amazon is the Third Person of the Trinity?



I did not know that! I received my Amazon copy of Micheal Lewis' Flash Boys today. Had I known I would have gone one extra for the discount of free shipping.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 14, 2014)

Folks, I'm making this post while laying on my back. I pulled a muscle in it yesterday and can hardly walk. I'm about to start a regiment of prednisone, muscle relaxers, and pain meds. I will try to refrain from posting once I start the meds.

 About the subject of eternal torment. It's not scriptural, it wasn't taught or preached by the apostles. There could be a place of a lake of fire in which unbelievers may face a measure of punishment before perishing. 

 If God wanted to punish any of us for eternity, He would be just in doing so, but it's not biblical. What is biblical is having Jesus Christ as your personal savior, you have eternal life!

God Bless you friends, love one another.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 14, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Folks, I'm making this post while laying on my back. I pulled a muscle in it yesterday and can hardly walk. I'm about to start a regiment of prednisone, muscle relaxers, and pain meds. I will try to refrain from posting once I start the meds.
> 
> About the subject of eternal torment. It's not scriptural, it wasn't taught or preached by the apostles. There could be a place of a lake of fire in which unbelievers may face a measure of punishment before perishing.
> 
> ...



I believe Jesus overcame that death for us. I don't believe Jesus went to the Lake of Fire for us. He might have went to Paradise or somewhere to preach to Noah, but not the Lake of Fire. His sacrifice was so that I wouldn't have to receive everlasting punishment/death.


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## centerpin fan (Apr 14, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> ... it wasn't taught or preached by the apostles.




Then where did these guys get it?


_From “The Epistle of Barnabas” (70-130AD)
 The author of the Epistle of Barnabas is unknown, but many consider him to simply be who he said he was, Barnabas, the associate of Paul who is mentioned in the Book of Acts. The letter was written to new converts to Christianity:

The way of darkness is crooked, and it is full of cursing. It is the way of eternal death with punishment. (“Epistle of Barnabas”)

From Ignatius of Antioch (110AD)
 Ignatius was a student of the Apostle John, and succeeded the Apostle Peter as the Bishop of Antioch. He wrote a number of important letters to believers in churches in the area:

Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him. (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2)

From Clement of Rome (150AD)
 Clement was Bishop of Rome from 88 to 98AD, and his teaching reflects the early traditions of the Church. “Second Clement” reportedly a recorded sermon, and Clement discusses the nature of - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -:

If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment (“Second Clement” 5:5)_


Lots more examples here:

http://pleaseconvinceme.com/2012/what-did-the-early-christians-believe-about-- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -/


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## hobbs27 (Apr 14, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I believe Jesus overcame that death for us. I don't believe Jesus went to the Lake of Fire for us. He might have went to Paradise or somewhere to preach to Noah, but not the Lake of Fire. His sacrifice was so that I wouldn't have to receive everlasting punishment/death.



I agree.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 14, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> Then where did these guys get it?
> 
> 
> _From “The Epistle of Barnabas” (70-130AD)
> ...



CP, none of these examples say that unbelievers will be punished forever, they say an unbelievers punishment is eternal--- capital punishment is forever, it cannot be reversed.


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## centerpin fan (Apr 14, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> CP, none of these examples say that unbelievers will be punished forever, they say an unbelievers punishment is eternal---



Isn't that what you asked in the OP?  



hobbs27 said:


> Can you defend our belief in an eternal place of dam nation ie. he11, using scripture alone?
> 
> First, you must research the Hebrew or Greek meaning of the word you are using to define he11. It must mean what we call an eternal place of dam nation. Please help me with this I know theres some smart folks in here.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 14, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> Isn't that what you asked in the OP?



No, I was looking to defend the traditional definition of he11, being a place where people are punished or tormented forever and ever..eternally. 

What scripture says is their punishment is eternal,,,in other words death. John 3:16 makes it clear that we either perish or have eternal life through our faith in Christ.

Look at this from a book titled he11 yes/ he11 no.

Where did he11 come from?
What’s the opposite of these words: “to torment and punish forever?” How about “to cover, conceal, and protect for a temporary period of time?” Shockingly, perhaps for some, this latter phrase is the etymology and original meaning for our modern English word “he11.” Moreover, it comes from a pagan source and not from the Bible. It also has little, if any, resemblance to our modern-day images of - he11
Etymology is the study of the origin, history, and derivation of words. The New Encyclopedia Britannica confirms this little-known etymology this way: “He11"the abode or state of being of evil spirits or souls that are - -ed to postmortem punishment. Derived from an Anglo-Saxon word meaning “to conceal,” or “to cover . . . .” Webster’s Dictionary explains that “he11" comes from middle English, old English, and old high German, (hel, helle, helan) and arose during the Anglo-Saxon pagan period (A.D. 400 – 1100).
Our word helmet is derived from this same etymology, root, and meaning. A helmet covers, conceals, and protects the head. It certainly does not torment or punish one’s head. Similarly, the word “hel” or “helle” was used in Europe during the middle ages when potato farmers would “hel” their potatoes. That is, during the winter they would cover, conceal, and protect their potatoes by digging holes, putting their potatoes in the ground, and covering them with dirt. These farmers referred to this process as “putting their potatoes in hel”—again, for the purpose of care and protection, and not torment and punishment.
Today, most housewives conceal and protect the potatoes they buy at the store by storing them in a dark place so they won’t sprout buds and go soft and bad as quickly as they would in a lighted and open area. In some parts of England it is also said that to cover a building with a roof of tiles or thatch was “to hel the building.” That job was done by people called “helliers.” Therefore, to hel a house meant to cover and protect it with a roof. I’m told that the term heling a house is still used in the New England portions of the United States.
Thus, the origin and basic meaning of the word “- he11” had nothing to do with an other-worldly, afterlife place or with a place of eternal torment and punishment with no hope of escape. That connotation or derivation had to come later. But the modern-day meaning evolved, or devolved, depending on your perspective, from referring to the common earthly grave of all deceased human beings into its meaning today of being a nether-world place of eternal conscious torment and punishment for only the - ed.
Consequently, most of our thinking about - he11 and hellfire today does not come from either the Bible or from its etymology and historical usage.
Sources:

1 He11Yes / He11 No by John Noē
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## Artfuldodger (Apr 14, 2014)

Was he11 a New Testament revelation and why? He11 was never warned about to Adam, Eve, or Noah.
When or why did God change the penalty of sin from death to eternal burning forever and ever?


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 14, 2014)

My first red flag was this that Paul says... I can't imagine that he would say that he would  suffere forever and ever for someone

◄ Romans 9:3 ►
Parallel Verses
New International Version
For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race,

New Living Translation
for my people, my Jewish brothers and sisters. I would be willing to be forever cursed--cut off from Christ!--if that would save them.

English Standard Version
For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh.

New American Standard Bible 
For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,

King James Bible
For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:


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## gordon 2 (Apr 15, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> No, I was looking to defend the traditional definition of he11, being a place where people are punished or tormented forever and ever..eternally.
> 
> What scripture says is their punishment is eternal,,,in other words death. John 3:16 makes it clear that we either perish or have eternal life through our faith in Christ.
> 
> ...



I think that the traditional definition (s) of spiritual matters, and by definition, has its definition in tradition and not scripture.


Just curious, but did you know all this "smart" stuff before your first post giving genesis to this tread?

Now this: 
 Quote]: "What scripture says is their punishment is eternal,,,in other words death. John 3:16 makes it clear that we either perish or have eternal life through our faith in Christ." [end Quote.

Are you sure of this? that eternal punishment equals death? Sound like a blanket  and off the cuff statement to me. And is to perish equal to death? Again this sounds very stereotype and suspect.  In usage"To perish" is a broader term than "to die" perhaps.

Now regards the ethmology of words in english, why not make a perspective on descriptive language with other mediaval and modern languages. Take the french word for "h e l l" for example, "enfer". It has nothing to do etymologically with covering or coverings, roofs etc. but rather if anything it has to do with what is lower, or bellow or base and basement.

So eternal punishment is not death, in fact the eternally punished probably would beg, like many do on their death beds, for the remedy of death as relief for their state.

So let me "guesstimate" what h e l l must be like as an eternal punishment: It must be like not having any possibility ever! of quitting a street gang.


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## gordon 2 (Apr 15, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Was he11 a New Testament revelation and why? He11 was never warned about to Adam, Eve, or Noah.
> When or why did God change the penalty of sin from death to eternal burning forever and ever?



"Eternal burning" is a figure of speech which taken up by a overly fleshy ear drum is not delivered to and processed by the textures of the soul. Let those who have ears listen.  However, this does not mean that even those who do process the expression should make assessments as if they were doctors or learned for many years of careful study.

Regards to the saints and their communities and the what is what of scripture, few have the diagnostic skills of Paul. The example of him most of us can follow is as a saint, but we should be careful of folky stereotypes posing as new uncoverings. The words and actions of Jesus and the apostles were all good and news.

I don't know a lot of stuff art, but man has always prayed for immortality and eternal fellowship. If by faith his prayers are answered, then immortality is his. And perhaps in a man's individual prayers are the prayers for his kin, his household, his community, his tribe, his people, all people, and all who will proceed from his bosom... etc... therefore all are, through prayer, blessed or cursed to an eternal existence; Blessed with a wholesome fellowship with God and/ or cursed with none at all. Perhaps...

The wages of sin is death, as in physical death, but the wages of apostacy is everlasting torment--not because of God's will, but because of man's stubborn choice to not share with each other the love of God. Perhaps...


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 15, 2014)

One day back when it was cold outside, I had to put my hands in our pool to install the pump discharge fitting. It was torture. It got me thinking if He11 to Eskimos was going to be cold instead of hot. 
Half frozen for eternity seems much more horrible than any he11.
Although not Biblical, just wondered if anyone else ever had thought of this. 
Getting back to what is Biblical, "brimstone" or "sulphur" isn't discussed as much as "fire." I've burnt sulphur before and it really stinks. I would hate to spend an eternity smelling burning sulphur.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 15, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> I think that the traditional definition (s) of spiritual matters, and by definition, has its definition in tradition and not scripture.
> 
> 
> Just curious, but did you know all this "smart" stuff before your first post giving genesis to this tread?
> ...




Gordon, I ran by the belief of annhilation by accident. I did very little research on it when I started this thread. I thought is was a crock to be honest, and being lazy I started the thread so many of the good folks here could show me where the idea of it is wrong, and allow me to continue on about my business.

 Once the thread got started my interest in the subject grew because what I suspected to happen wasnt. The idea of  annhilation was proving to be way more biblical than the idea of eternal torment. Believe me, I have struggled with accepting this, and included my wife at home in asking her to look at this scripture and that scripture and then tell me, Am I missing something or is this what it says? 

 I can respect and love my friends in Christ that dont believe in annhilation and continue to believe, teach , and preach of an everlasting torment, all I ask is they consider the text & study the scripture, and if everything is good in their souls then run with it. I have never even thought to question eternal torment in the past, but I can say this, if the subject comes up while Im standing to teach it will be handled with a lot more respect than it got in the past.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 15, 2014)

Reading about various Churches that don't believe in burning forever I ran across the Primitive Baptist Universalist or "No-hellers" as they are sometimes referred to. I would assume they are similar in beliefs to other Universalist that believe in universal salvation. 

It just sounds a little ironic in a "Primitive Baptist" Church:

The association to which Stoney Creek belongs is the Regular Baptist Washington District Association, the No-Heller side of an older alliance of Baptist congregations that was established in 1811.

After 113 years of relative peace, this older Washington District family of churches fell into bitter doctrinal discord, which in 1924 split the No-Heller side from the Heller side, the latter also still extant and now proclaiming itself The Original Washington District Primitive Baptist Association. 
Because Primite Baptist Universalists do believe in he11 in the temporal world, they strongly reject the No-Heller label that others have given them. Nevertheless, it must be recognized immediately that all other Primitive Baptist groups simply do not accept the PBU faith as being Primitive, arguing that one essential feature of Primitive Baptist theology is some version of John Calvin’s limited atonement doctrine.


http://www.appalachianhistory.net/2011/06/hellers-or-no-hellers.html


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## gordon 2 (Apr 15, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Reading about various Churches that don't believe in burning forever I ran across the Primitive Baptist Universalist or "No-hellers" as they are sometimes referred to. I would assume they are similar in beliefs to other Universalist that believe in universal salvation.
> 
> It just sounds a little ironic in a "Primitive Baptist" Church:
> 
> ...



Man...that's almost from Saturday Night Live. I mean no disrespect but this just tickles whatever spontaneously makes me giggle, like when one is overtired and unable to hold back being dry and closed mouth to dark humor. 

Man! The webs we weave!


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## gordon 2 (Apr 15, 2014)

Oh, and this being scripture do you think the Holy Spirit was with the one who wrote it, or is the scripture itself that Spirit? I'm referring to the reality of the trinity and the reality of our Lord.

Colossians 2:8-10
King James Version (KJV)
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here I'll provide quiet music to pray by:

The sky is cryin.... 
Can't you see the tears roll down the street 
The sky is cryin.... 
Can't you see the tears roll down the street 
I've been looking for my baby 
And I wonder where can she be 

I saw my baby early one morning.... 
She was walking on down the street 
I saw my baby early this morning.... 
She was walking on down the street 
You know it hurt me, hurt me so bad 
Made my poor heart skip a beat 

I've got a real real real real bad feelin 
That my baby she don't love me no more 
I've got a real real bad feelin that my baby don't love me no more 
You know the sky, the sky's been cryin 
Can you see the tears roll down my nose


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## gemcgrew (Apr 15, 2014)

Hobbs, a doctrine of annihilation would be great news for the sinner.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 15, 2014)

This is from edward fudge book on matthew 25

Last annotated on April 16, 2014
Punishment will be eternal, but of what will it consist? Perhaps the most famous of all of Jesus’ words concerning final punishment comes at the end of the parable of the sheep and the goats (Mt 25:31-46). Shepherds in Judea often care for mixed flocks including both sheep and goats. At night the shepherds separate the sheep from the goats, because the goats require protection from the cold, while the sheep prefer open air. This practice provided the setting for Jesus’ parable. In this story of final judgment Jesus tells those on the right hand to “take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world” (Mt 25:34). Jesus’ first sermon in Matthew names this reward (Mt 5:3) and so also does this, his last sermon in Matthew’s Gospel. To those on the left hand the Son of Man says: “Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (Mt 25:41). Both destinies have been “prepared” and are described as “eternal,” but the Lord emphasizes the contrast between these two destinies: life or fiery punishment (Mt 25:46). The word punishment tells us that the destiny of the lost issues from a judicial sentence. They are sent away to this fate. The word punishment does not tell us the nature of the penalty, however, or of what it actually consists. In our own criminal justice system punishment has a wide variety of meanings. It might mean a monetary fine or perhaps a brief time in jail or even a life sentence to prison. The worst punishment of all, however, is capital punishment.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 15, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Hobbs, a doctrine of annihilation would be great news for the sinner.



I don't think it would be so wonderful.. But brother Gem, I can't help but to believe what is in Gods word and what Gods word tells us of the Apostles teachings. The more I've studied today in between naps, this idea of he11 being a place sinners burn for eternity was never mentioned till around 400 ad and it became a worse and worse place over the years.


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## gemcgrew (Apr 15, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I don't think it would be so wonderful.. But brother Gem, I can't help but to believe what is in Gods word and what Gods word tells us of the Apostles teachings. The more I've studied today in between naps, this idea of he11 being a place sinners burn for eternity was never mentioned till around 400 ad and it became a worse and worse place over the years.


A notion of just ceasing to exist does not trouble me in the least.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 15, 2014)

Other than Gem and a few other elected believers, why aren't we out right this minute warning sinners of this everlasting burning? How can we even sleep at night knowing we haven't did our part to warn our family, friends, & neighbors. I'm talking about people that will be tortured day & night forever and ever. We don't appear to be that concerned except for ourselves and immediate family. We work and even join clubs with these people and yet we don't warn them. If a forest fire was headed for a town, we would all be out warning everyone. Why don't we sell our belongings and hit the road? I can't even fathom burning forever and ever. Could you imagine having a tooth ache or ear ache forever & ever or burning eyes from welding?


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## gemcgrew (Apr 15, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Other than Gem and a few other elected believers, why aren't we out right this minute warning sinners of this everlasting burning?




Art, I take it that you do not think that I warn others of he11?


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 15, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> A notion of just ceasing to exist does not trouble me in the least.



I do remember a thread, I think I started, if one would believe in Jesus without a belief in He11. 
Most said that is what Jesus was saving us from instead of perishing. Wouldn't a faith in Jesus be even stronger knowing you believed because you wanted to be with God because of his love instead of fear of burning forever?
Gaining everlasting life vs everlasting death?
That wouldn't be enough?


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 15, 2014)

Was he11 a New Testament revelation and why? He11 was never warned about to Adam, Eve, or Noah.
When or why did God change the penalty of sin from death to eternal burning forever and ever?


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## gemcgrew (Apr 15, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I do remember a thread, I think I started, if one would believe in Jesus without a belief in He11.
> Most said that is what Jesus was saving us from instead of perishing. Wouldn't a faith in Jesus be even stronger knowing you believed because you wanted to be with God because of his love instead of fear of burning forever?
> Gaining everlasting life vs everlasting death?
> That wouldn't be enough?


My faith did not result from my fear. My faith is the result of God's grace to me.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 15, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> A notion of just ceasing to exist does not trouble me in the least.



So was it the knowledge of He11 that gave you faith, or Christ?


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 15, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Art, I take it that you do not think that I warn others of he11?



I don't think Christians do as if they really thought their fellow brothers were going to actually burn forever. Funny that JW's witness more than most and they don't believe in burning forever. They must really love God for his saving grace from everlasting death.


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## gemcgrew (Apr 15, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> So was it the knowledge of He11 that gave you faith, or Christ?


My faith is a gift. I do not trust in my faith. I trust in the faith of Christ.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 15, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> My faith did not result from my fear. My faith is the result of God's grace to me.



Why even have a concept of he11 if you were never going to be elected to go there?

(your quote) A notion of just ceasing to exist does not trouble me in the least.
 I guess not knowing you were elected everlasting life.


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## gemcgrew (Apr 15, 2014)

Hobbs, in regard to annihilation, how do you handle Daniel 12:2?


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## gemcgrew (Apr 15, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why even have a concept of he11 if you were never going to be elected to go there?


Because he11 is a biblical doctrine. 

I am late to this thread and probably need to go back and read it all.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 15, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Hobbs, in regard to annihilation, how do you handle Daniel 12:2?


From fudge book,
Daniel 12:1-2 provides one of the few explicit Old Testament references to the resurrection of both the good and the evil. This prophecy clearly says that “multitudes” will awake from the dust of the earth, but that they will be raised in two forms: “some to everlasting life” and “others to shame and everlasting contempt” (Dan 12:2). The Hebrew word translated “contempt” here is the same word translated “loathsome” in Isaiah 66:24 where it describes unburied corpses. The shame and contempt here are “everlasting” because the loathsome disintegration of the wicked will never be reversed.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 15, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Hobbs, in regard to annihilation, how do you handle Daniel 12:2?



And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Good verse. I don't think that one has appeared in this thread. Good verse for Soul Sleep too. But how could a sinner have eternal contempt, remorse, guilty feelings if dead. The dead know nothing. I'll have to think about that one.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 15, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Hobbs, in regard to annihilation, how do you handle Daniel 12:2?



How do you handle everlasting death in:

Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Malachi 4:1&3
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts

Psalm 145:20
The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.

Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed; there will be no future for the wicked.

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

1 John 5:11-12
11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in he11.
("apollumi" means to perish, be destroyed, kill or caused to die.)


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 15, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Because he11 is a biblical doctrine.
> 
> I am late to this thread and probably need to go back and read it all.



True He11 is Biblical. The argument is more about the Lake of Fire. What will burn forever in this eternal lake of fire and brimstone? We do know Biblically that Satan will. So will death & He11.
We do know the Lake of Fire will burn forever. The argument is will every person, concept, or thing thrown into this lake burn forever & ever based on Bible verses.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 15, 2014)

Isaiah 66:24
"And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."


The contempt, loathsome, abhorring, horror, or dissonance, will be from conveyed to humanity or mankind, not the dead.

In Daniel 12:2 is this everlasting contempt  how humanity or God views this person or how the sleeping awakened person feels?


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## hobbs27 (Apr 15, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Isaiah 66:24
> "And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."
> 
> 
> ...



Art, those souls slept, awaiting the cross. Jesus took the captive out of captivity, they were in hades, the OT abode for the dead.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 15, 2014)

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The Hebrew word translated as “everlasting” is olam.

Many bible-versions contain such expressions as “for ever” and “everlasting”. An example: The Old Testament part of NASB95 contains the expression “forever” in almost 300 passages, and the word “everlasting” in more than 100 passages. Such translations can easily cause casual bible-readers to think that the things mentioned in those passages are “for all time to come” (“time without end”). But, that is not the case.
This article contains some notes on the misleading translations “forever” and “everlasting” in the Old Testament. It concentrates on the actual meaning of the old Hebrew word olam. It will be shown that it did not mean “for ever”, the way that English expression is used and understood.

A note: This is not a matter of mere semantics. This is a vital key to better understanding of the Scriptures. If one is not aware of the fact that numerous bible-versions translate the word olam in misleading ways, then one is easily misled even in regard to fundamental matters in the Bible, such as the matter of the two covenants, old and new.

http://www.biblepages.net/gg09.htm


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 15, 2014)

Sometimes I wonder why God would make everything a mystery or at least not very cut and dry. Why make us search for Hebrew or Greek manuscripts? You knew that some day we would only understand English, yet our English Bibles aren't up to par on words like "olam."
Jesus answering questions with questions. Perhaps God wants us to search for the light a little more than reading a good novel or listening to a good preacher. It is a place worth searching for? Most definitely.
Universal? Perhaps. Only for a few? Perhaps. Simple? Perhaps. Complex? Only in English.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 16, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Sometimes I wonder why God would make everything a mystery or at least not very cut and dry. Why make us search for Hebrew or Greek manuscripts? You knew that some day we would only understand English, yet our English Bibles aren't up to par on words like "olam."
> Jesus answering questions with questions. Perhaps God wants us to search for the light a little more than reading a good novel or listening to a good preacher. It is a place worth searching for? Most definitely.
> Universal? Perhaps. Only for a few? Perhaps. Simple? Perhaps. Complex? Only in English.



Im seeing how the bible is and has brought us back to true religion. The reformation stopped short of correcting everything though. The church is in bad need of reformation again. 

At least most church creeds are trumped by sola scriptura----- well in creed it does;  in reality however you will meet great repulse from the church leaders if you show plainly scripture is indifferent than their creed.

 Christ is our Lord, Christ is the head of the church, The Holy Spirit and the bible are our guides.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 16, 2014)

One more thought on the subject. It does not and did not require a fear of eternal torment for the Lord to save my soul. Im reminded of the water of life. How Jesus prayed in the garden that if it be the Fathers will that he not bear that cup, but on the cross He said, " I thirst!" 

The rich man in hades desired just one little drop of that life saving water, but it was too late, his name had been blotted from the book of life---ever notice this? We know Lazarus name, but the rich man has no name.

 Stephen preached Jesus to the eunuch from Isaiah, not eternal torment, Peter, Paul, James, none of them threatened eternal torment if they were not saved---Folks are saved because at some point they thirst, they thirst for a savior, and oh what a great one He is!

 Eternal torment was added to Christianity sometime around 400 ad and from everything I've read in the last couple of weeks it's rooted in greek mythology and paganism, it grew stronger and stronger over the years, but it never was biblical.


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## M80 (Apr 16, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Im seeing how the bible is and has brought us back to true religion. The reformation stopped short of correcting everything though. The church is in bad need of reformation again.
> 
> At least most church creeds are trumped by sola scriptura----- well in creed it does;  in reality however you will meet great repulse from the church leaders if you show plainly scripture is indifferent than their creed.
> 
> Christ is our Lord, Christ is the head of the church, The Holy Spirit and the bible are our guides.



Amen


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## centerpin fan (Apr 16, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Eternal torment was added to Christianity sometime around 400 ad ...



Every quote in post 130 is from 150 AD or earlier.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 16, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> Every quote in post 130 is from 150 AD or earlier.



Agreed, but none of them are about eternal torments...they are about a punishment that is eternal, ie. death. They aren't about a soul that is tormented every second of every day in a body that cannot be consumed by the fire.


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## centerpin fan (Apr 16, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Agreed, but none of them are about eternal torments...they are about a punishment that is eternal, ie. death. They aren't about a soul that is tormented every second of every day in a body that cannot be consumed by the fire.



We'll have to agree to disagree on that.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 16, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree on that.



In post 130 one of the quotes provided references 2 clement  5:5. I've looked it up under three different English translations and what I've found doesn't look anything like your quote. Here's what I have

2Clem 5:5
And ye know, brethren, that the sojourn of this flesh in this world
is mean and for a short time, but the promise of Christ is great and
marvelous, even the rest of the kingdom that shall be and of life
eternal.

What am I doing wrong?


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## centerpin fan (Apr 16, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> In post 130 one of the quotes provided references 2 clement  5:5. I've looked it up under three different English translations and what I've found doesn't look anything like your quote. Here's what I have
> 
> 2Clem 5:5
> And ye know, brethren, that the sojourn of this flesh in this world
> ...



Nothing.

The link in post 130 has the wrong reference.  I believe they meant 2 Clement 6:7.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 16, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> Nothing.
> 
> The link in post 130 has the wrong reference.  I believe they meant 2 Clement 6:7.



Thanks, I see it in 6:7. As I went on reading I found this again, in that through salvation comes eternal life:

2Clem 8:4
Wherefore, brethren, if we shall have done the will of the Father and
kept the flesh pure and guarded the commandments of the Lord, we
shall receive life eternal.

2Clem 8:5
For the Lord saith in the Gospel, If ye kept not that which is
little, who shall give unto you that which is great? For I say unto
you that he which is faithful in the least, is also faithful in
much.

2Clem 8:6
So then He meaneth this, Keep the flesh pure and the seal unstained,
to the end that we may receive life.


This also in barnabas: Barnabas 8:5
Then there is the placing the wool on the tree. This means that the
kingdom of Jesus is on the cross, and that they who set their hope on
Him shall live for ever.


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## barryl (Apr 17, 2014)

Been watchin' this thread a few Days, just wanted to ask one simple little question, "Where" are your sins "NOW!"


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## hobbs27 (Apr 17, 2014)

barryl said:


> Been watchin' this thread a few Days, just wanted to ask one simple little question, "Where" are your sins "NOW!"



Gone forever, washed away with the sweet blood of The Lamb.


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## barryl (Apr 18, 2014)

Good! Since this thread is about He11, I know you have read Matt. 12:40, or Acts 2: 27, 31 or 2 Cor.5:21 KJV 1611 AV The Lord Jesus Christ's Soul went right straight "down into he11 and through it" and back out the other side of Shoal with the "captivity led captive". Kinda makes you wonder where the no-hellers sins are, don't it? If Christ bore our sins in his own body to the point of being made a curse (Gal. 3:13) what did Jesus Christ do with them?


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## hobbs27 (Apr 18, 2014)

barryl said:


> Good! Since this thread is about He11, I know you have read Matt. 12:40, or Acts 2: 27, 31 or 2 Cor.5:21 KJV 1611 AV The Lord Jesus Christ's Soul went right straight "down into he11 and through it" and back out the other side of Shoal with the "captivity led captive". Kinda makes you wonder where the no-hellers sins are, don't it? If Christ bore our sins in his own body to the point of being made a curse (Gal. 3:13) what did Jesus Christ do with them?



Barry, the thread is more about a place of eternal torment than he11. I think we all recognize Satan has a home prepared in which she will be eternally tormented. She was made celestial. 

The place the KJV 1611 AV refers to as he11 is not correct with what we define he11 as being. The place Jesus went was Sheol in Hebrew or hades in Greek. It was an OT abode for the dead both righteous and unrighteous.


PS ...I just referred to Satan as a woman cause they can be more evil than any man I ever knew...I don't have any scripture to back it up...


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## hobbs27 (Apr 19, 2014)

What Harm Could There Be in Being Wrong About Eternal Torment?

Ask family and friends of Andrea Yates from Texas. The lady that killed all her children. She was driven to a nervous break down by a he11 fire and brimstone preacher that told her she was evil and could not be saved. She was led to believe that she would raise her children to be as evil as she and they too would have no hope but eternal torment.
 It weighed on her so much that she decided it was better to kill her children before they met the age of accountability and let them go to heaven than to raise them up to be children destined for he11 as she was.
 This is very sad to me. Info is from " He11 Yes/ He11 No" by John Noe.


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## barryl (Apr 19, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Barry, the thread is more about a place of eternal torment than he11. I think we all recognize Satan has a home prepared in which she will be eternally tormented. She was made celestial.
> 
> The place the KJV 1611 AV refers to as he11 is not correct with what we define he11 as being. The place Jesus went was Sheol in Hebrew or hades in Greek. It was an OT abode for the dead both righteous and unrighteous.
> 
> ...


"The place the KJV 1611 AV refers to as he11 is not correct with what we define he11 as being." Oh O.K. I didn't know you knew Greek and Hebrew. Since I don't know Greek and Hebrew, I'll just stick to English. You know God preserves his word.(Psalms 12:6-7) Since Jesus bore our sins in his body(1 Peter 2:24) what did he do with them? No need to go to the Greek and Hebrew for your answer just go to the KJV 1611 AV (John 17:17)


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 19, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> What Harm Could There Be in Being Wrong About Eternal Torment?


One side or the other is an extreme misrepresentation of God.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Apr 22, 2014)

Just another book I'm throwing out there. I don't read many books but I do enjoy reading about various concepts and beliefs.

Rob Bell's book "Love Wins."
Controversial evangelical pastor Brian McLaren has come to the defense of Rob Bell, taking on R. Albert Mohler, Jr.'s critical review of Bell’s new book, Love Wins, in a recent blog post.

Anticipating Bell's "baptism in hot water" with the book's publication, McLaren said he was waiting for an opportunity to speak up on behalf of his friend and Mohler's March 16 blog post gave him that chance.

For weeks, evangelical leaders have hammered Bell for his views on heaven and he11 as expressed in his new book Love Wins. Bell is accused of being a universalist, dismissing the sacrifice of Jesus’ death on the cross, and not believing in he11, among other things.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/b...aa=0&csi=undefined&rev=127363&ct=1&xld=1&xd=1


I think he feels we may have learned the wrong interpretation of thing about Jesus, heaven, and he11.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 22, 2014)

Im kind of surprised Dr. Albert Mohler would waste his time on a secondary doctrine as this.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Apr 22, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Im kind of surprised Dr. Albert Mohler would waste his time on a secondary doctrine as this.



I'm sure it's not a secondary doctrine with Mohler. He11 has got to be available  for all of the homosexuals if for no one else.

Bell does have some very liberal ways of thinking though. We have people on both ends and all in between.


----------



## gordon 2 (Apr 22, 2014)

barryl said:


> Been watchin' this thread a few Days, just wanted to ask one simple little question, "Where" are your sins "NOW!"



 The challenges of competitive Christianity is  very addictive, eh? I find. It's like eating peanuts, its hard to stop shelling when you start. And judging by the numbers, ( tread views) it has many fans.


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## Madman (Apr 25, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Can you defend our belief in an eternal place of dam nation ie. he11, using scripture alone?



I put this on paper a long time ago.  Some is mine most is not.  Not sure where some of it came from any longer.

Is there a he11?


Will God send anyone to He11 or I believe a more accurate question would be: Will God grant someone’s desire to spend eternity apart from Him, that separation being referred to as He11?

It is important to first decide who God is.  In the Scriptures He has chosen to use the word “father” to describe Himself.  Since God is perfect what would the perfect father be?

Would a perfect father force his will upon his child?   I can prod and push and attempt to persuade my children, I can show them a better way, a safer way, but if I am a “good” father will I force them to bow to my will?  We are made in the image of God; we have free will, and therefore the ability to choose.  The true argument is not if God would send someone to - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - but rather will He grant someone’s desire to live in separation.

To that question the Scripture’s answer is yes.  Outside the Calvinist’s view of predestination Christianity has claimed that man, being created in the image of God, has free will. (Don’t start this is for another time)  He can choose to accept or reject the love of God just as my children can accept or reject my love.  

If they accept my love there are benefits that come with that, living in my home, eating my food, wearing the clothes I buy for them, but it also comes with rules.  I require them to do certain things if for no other reason than to keep them safe.  I do not allow them to go certain places, take drugs, stay out late, hang around the wrong people; I expect them to take a bath, etc.  If I allowed them to do anything they wanted I would not be a good father.  Therefore, there comes a time in their life where they make a choice for themselves (the age of accountability), do they wish to continue to follow the rules of our home and remain in my protection with all of the benefits, or do they wish to reject me and my values and go their own way?

It would break my heart if that were what they chose, but I would never force my values upon them.  By doing so I would be telling them that I do not love them, that I do not value them and that I do not think they are created in God’s image but are created in my image and therefore must behave as I say.

I would not force my values on them but I would also not allow their destructive behavior to infect my home.  I have other children that I love and must protect.  Therefore, if the child chose to separate himself from me I would have to allow it.  I would never force my children, to submit to my will, and God does not force us to submit to His.

If my child were to decide he knew a better way, rejected my values, and thereby rejected me I would allow him to separate himself from me.  I would always welcome him home just as the prodigal son was welcomed home but I would not force him to remain.  

By claiming the universalistic view that “all will be saved” we do violence to the Scriptures.  

Here are some of the reasons I know He11 to be real and a place of eternity:
•	Jesus taught of the existence of He11
Matt. 10:28
Matt. 13:40
Matt. 25:41
Mark 9:43
Luke1619-31 (Jesus tells a story and uses names, unlike any parable in the Bible)

•	The Bible teaches that there is a He11 
Rev. 20:11-15
2 Thess. 1:7b-9
Heb. 9:27
The nature and location of He11 is given
Matt. 8:12 ; 22:13  
Rev. 22:14-15
Matt. 25:41

       	The duration is given
		He11 will last as long as God does. 
Matt. 25:41	
Thes. 1:9
Rev. 20-10	

•	God’s justice demands a He11
Gen. 18:25 
Ps. 73:3

•	God’s Love demands a He11 (the jest of my argument)
Love can not coerce it can only persuade 2 Cor. 9:7
Forced love is not love it is rape
God cannot ravish, it is not in His nature, He can only woo.
If that is true then those who choose not to love God, must be allowed to do so.
Those who wish not to be with Him must be allowed to be separated from Him and that is He11.

•	Human dignity demands a He11  (another part of my argument)
Matt. 23:37
C.S. Lewis makes the comment, “There are only two kinds of people, those who say to God, Thy will be done, and those people to whom God says, thy will be done.” (Screwtape Letters p.69)

•	God’s sovereignty demands a He11
If there were no He11 God would not be the ultimate victory over evil that He claims to be. 
1 Cor. 15:24-28
Rev. 20-22

•	The Cross of Christ implies a He11
Finally. At the center of Christianity is the cross, and without it there is no salvation.
Rom. 4:25
Heb. 10:10-14


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## gemcgrew (Apr 25, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Just another book I'm throwing out there. I don't read many books but I do enjoy reading about various concepts and beliefs.
> 
> Rob Bell's book "Love Wins."
> Controversial evangelical pastor Brian McLaren has come to the defense of Rob Bell, taking on R. Albert Mohler, Jr.'s critical review of Bell’s new book, Love Wins, in a recent blog post.
> ...



This "Love Wins" argument is laughable, or at least should be. God wins because he succeeds in doing his pleasure. I can just as easily say that the eternal punishment of the wicked in he11 shows God's people how much he loves them. Therefore, love wins.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 25, 2014)

Madman said:


> I put this on paper a long time ago.  Some is mine most is not.  Not sure where some of it came from any longer.
> 
> Is there a he11?



 Yes-- there is a he11. I dont know what it is or who it is for, but I do know it's not a place of eternal torment for lost souls according to the Holy Bible.




Madman said:


> Here are some of the reasons I know He11 to be real and a place of eternity:
> •	Jesus taught of the existence of He11
> Matt. 10:28
> Matt. 13:40
> ...



Matt. 10:28 translated from the word Gehenna

Matt. 13:40 Jesus is speaking of the end of that age..which was the OT age, it has come and gone, but even for a futurist, one cannot deny that the tares are burned as in consumed by fire --not eternal torment.

Matt. 25:41 Gods fire is everlasting---but it is a consuming fire, not a fire that will burn someone forever.

Mark 9:43 Again Jesus is referring to a place known as Gehenna; Gehenna is a real place known as the valley of hinnon.. a place is a place no matter what language its translated from. Our bible has erred in translating a city name into he11...Gehenna was where the city garbage dump was for Jerusalem.



Madman said:


> •	The Bible teaches that there is a He11
> Rev. 20:11-15
> 2 Thess. 1:7b-9
> Heb. 9:27



Rev. 20: 11-15 No mention of eternal torments.

2 Thess. 1:7-9 A consuming fire--not eternal torments.

Heb. 9:27 ? nothing here.      	



Madman said:


> The duration is given
> He11 will last as long as God does.
> Matt. 25:41
> Thes. 1:9
> Rev. 20-10



 Matt. 25:41 Gods fire is everlasting--It consumes though.
2Thes. 1:9 an everlastion destruction..but once something is destroyed its destroyed.
Rev. 20-10 Yep- the devil will be punished eternally


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## gemcgrew (Apr 25, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Rev. 20-10 Yep- the devil will be punished eternally


But his seed will not?


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## hobbs27 (Apr 25, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> But his seed will not?



What does the bible say?


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## gemcgrew (Apr 25, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> What does the bible say?


Hobbs, I see the same word "aionios" in reference to condemnation and salvation.

Again, if you are correct, it is great news for sinners. To just be destroyed or consumed, is no great worry.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 25, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Hobbs, I see the same word "aionios" in reference to condemnation and salvation.
> 
> Again, if you are correct, it is great news for sinners. To just be destroyed or consumed, is no great worry.



How is it great news for sinners who never had a choice to begin with? I can somewhat see God electing a few or many for eternal life. It's his clay. Why leave the rest of the clay in the kiln forever? If I made some bad pottery, I'd just let it perish.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 25, 2014)

As a father I would gladly welcome my prodigal child back home. Even if I had 20 good kids. Love is amazing isn't it? If that one child never comes back, then they will perish. I have no desire to punish them with pain forever. A good day or two would be enough.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 25, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Hobbs, I see the same word "aionios" in reference to condemnation and salvation.
> 
> Again, if you are correct, it is great news for sinners. To just be destroyed or consumed, is no great worry.



Why is perishing great news  vs spending everlasting life at Club Med? Dying vs everlasting life doesn't sound too much better than Burning in He11.

Where will this everlasting life be lived and what form will one be in to live it? If I don't have any eyes, ears, nose, throat, or mind, I'm not sure I want to go anyway. 
I mean my soul or spirit floating around in spiritual goo doesn't sound too appealing. It does sound better than an eternal burning physical body.
I do admit that physical pain for an eternity sounds terrible. If I truly felt this was gonna happen, I'd be on the streets right now as we speak warning everyone. I can't see how anyone who believes this is gonna happen ain't out there tonight warning everyone. If a tsunami was eminent we would be warning our fellow brothers. Sell your belongings, kiss your wife goodbye and hit the streets!


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 25, 2014)

Why doesn't every Christian make those big white plywood signs about He11 and place them in their yard and on trees? Why doesn't every Christian drive around with a big loudspeaker on the top of their car warning sinners of their fate?
We're talking about people burning forever. Skin melting, bones melting, eyes melting, everlasting pain, eternal torture, blisters, eternal infections from the burns, not even being able to go to the bathroom because of pain. 
People get out now and start warning people. At least warn your kinfolk. Well at least warn your friends.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 25, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Hobbs, I see the same word "aionios" in reference to condemnation and salvation.
> 
> Again, if you are correct, it is great news for sinners. To just be destroyed or consumed, is no great worry.



I've stayed away from justifying a need for a he11, and at the same time the emotions people have about a God that would torment people forever.. Im only interested in what scripture says,& what Jesus truly said about a place of eternal torment for lost souls.

 If there is a place of eternal torment for lost souls God is just as justified as if there is not. I just don't see where this place is taught by Jesus or any of the apostles....that alone makes me think Hmmmm.. is there a place?


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 25, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Hobbs, I see the same word "aionios" in reference to condemnation and salvation.
> 
> Again, if you are correct, it is great news for sinners. To just be destroyed or consumed, is no great worry.



Despite the efforts of men to override the clear teaching of the Bible, the Bible is clear about the eternal nature of the punishment of the wicked. "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" (Matt. 25:46). It is easy to see that Life is the same in duration as is the Punishment of the wicked. If one is temporary, so is the other. If the punishment of those held within the lake of fire is temporary, heaven is also temporary.

You do bring up a good point. How can life be everlasting but perishing be temporary. To me the word "life" means forever. The only alternative is "death" which is also everlasting.
"Punishment" in the term of "aionios" meaning everlasting is a good point and what or how we view He11. 
True the "fire" is everlasting. True Satan will burn "everlasting." If man will because of these two, show it with scripture. Then we will discuss scripture about "surely you will die" and compare the "death" scriptures with the punishment scriptures meaning the actual physical "act" of dying being aionios.

The opposite of aionios life is aionios death/punishment. You are either "alive" or you are "dead." Both are aionios. One is a reward and one is punishment. 
If one is rewarded or punished, I hope it has something to do with their actions. Regardless of election or grace.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 25, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I've stayed away from justifying a need for a he11, and at the same time the emotions people have about a God that would torment people forever.. Im only interested in what scripture says,& what Jesus truly said about a place of eternal torment for lost souls.
> 
> If there is a place of eternal torment for lost souls God is just as justified as if there is not. I just don't see where this place is taught by Jesus or any of the apostles....that alone makes me think Hmmmm.. is there a place?



I agree, if God elects one to aionios life, death, or punishment, it is his prerogative, just show me with scripture. Then explain the scriptures that say just the opposite.
If you show me  scripture about eternal punishment as meaning "burning forever," then explain the scriptures about eternal death.
Being thrown into an eternal fire doesn't mean one will burn forever.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 25, 2014)

God wins by doing his pleasure. Whether God elects a few, many, or all, for Heaven or He11 is God's choice.
Meaning there isn't much difference between "election" or "universalism." I can see why different sects of Primitive Baptist see it this way. The only difference is the depth or grasp of God's love. It's within his power to grab a few or everyone. Not much difference in that belief.


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## Madman (Apr 26, 2014)

> Yes-- there is a he11. I dont know what it is or who it is for, but I do know it's not a place of eternal torment for lost souls according to the Holy Bible.




Below is the OP.  Thought that is what I was doing.



hobbs27 said:


> Can you defend our belief in an eternal place of dam nation ie. he11, using scripture alone?


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## gemcgrew (Apr 26, 2014)

Hobbs, I have not had time to read the entire thread, so forgive me if I am rehashing what has already been discussed. Do you see eternal punishment as being just a state of remaining dead? If so, this is great news for the reprobate, for he has no recollection prior to being created and will have no recollection when he ceases to exist.


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## Israel (Apr 26, 2014)

It's very peculiar. I believe there's not one man walking the earth presently who knows what it means to be without hope.
The torments of the most depraved soul, the most self involved, self absorbed and self dedicated soul...despite the many and irrefutable proofs to it of frustration...still, by the presence of the Holy Spirit in the earth...has a testimony of hope...even if scorned.
I know a little about this, I believe.
And, despite the "worst" such a soul may experience, despite the greater depths than I have ever plunged or known (God knows, I may have been relegated to the shallows) this grief of soul bears a "temporary" imprimatur. For God remains as near as heart and lips. God does this, God woos, God makes known.

Now, just as God's grace makes known his presence. when God also decides a soul will know that all hope is gone, all even whispered promise of comfort and surcease is removed, when a soul is to know it has received precisely the just reward that the enthronement of self requires, well, Lord save me from such a place.

"from which Judas left to go to his own place"

Some may say, I don't see any torment in that. 
Perdition for me... tasted by me...even if ever so slightly, would be having been "left to myself"
He11 itself would be a kingdom of "me's"
But, actually, only one will do, too.


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## gemcgrew (Apr 26, 2014)

Israel said:


> It's very peculiar. I believe there's not one man walking the earth presently who knows what it means to be without hope.
> The torments of the most depraved soul, the most self involved, self absorbed and self dedicated soul...despite the many and irrefutable proofs to it of frustration...still, by the presence of the Holy Spirit in the earth...has a testimony of hope...even if scorned.
> I know a little about this, I believe.
> And, despite the "worst" such a soul may experience, despite the greater depths than I have ever plunged or known (God knows, I may have been relegated to the shallows) this grief of soul bears a "temporary" imprimatur. For God remains as near as heart and lips. God does this, God woos, God makes known.
> ...


I do not want to even imagine being truly alone to self. It would be far better to have never been born.


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## Israel (Apr 26, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> I do not want to even imagine being truly alone to self. It would be far better to have never been born.


amen.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 26, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Hobbs, I have not had time to read the entire thread, so forgive me if I am rehashing what has already been discussed. Do you see eternal punishment as being just a state of remaining dead? If so, this is great news for the reprobate, for he has no recollection prior to being created and will have no recollection when he ceases to exist.



Gemcgrew, In my studies of other things this he11 issue was coming up some. I thought it kind of crazy to believe there's no he11 for the lost souls, a place of eternal torment thats talked about in all the churches. I thought, surely something this commonly discussed would have tons of scripture on it.

 There is none, no scripture at all in the bible tells us of a place of eternal torments for lost souls. The devil, yes. The unrighteous no.  

 What happens to them? Im not sure if they are given a measure of punishment before they perish, or if they simply perish. What I know at this point is that no where in our Holy Bible is a place set aside for eternal torment of the unrighteous, and no where in our bible did Jesus or any of the apostles preach about a place of eternal torments for the unrighteous, nor did they ever preach that to not be saved would condemn you to eternal torments.---Its a shocker! It was to me anyways.


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## M80 (Apr 26, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Hobbs, I see the same word "aionios" in reference to condemnation and salvation.
> 
> Again, if you are correct, it is great news for sinners. To just be destroyed or consumed, is no great worry.



Very well said Gem


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 27, 2014)

Why is not receiving "everlasting life" no great worry? The whole concept of or theme of Christianity is everlasting life. That's why we believe in Christ. We want everlasting life. I'd be worried about eternal perishing. I'd be worried about not living forever.


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## Israel (Apr 27, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why is not receiving "everlasting life" know great worry? The whole concept of or theme of Christianity is everlasting life. That's why we believe in Christ. We want everlasting life. I'd be worried about eternal perishing. I'd be worried about not living forever.



Please consider something Gem said a few posts back, as he reiterated something our Lord told us...regarding it be better for "one" had they not been born.
If the reward for iniquity is annihilation...that's not worse than never being born...it is...precisely from the iniquitous one's point of view (having none), the same.


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## M80 (Apr 27, 2014)

A quick question Hobbs. Do you believe the rich man was a real man or do you think Jesus was just using this as a parable.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 28, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> A quick question Hobbs. Do you believe the rich man was a real man or do you think Jesus was just using this as a parable.



He was a real man. He was in hades, not he11. Lazarus was also in hades. Hades was the OT abode for the dead, it indeed did have different compartments, Lazarus was in a place of comfort inside Abrahams bosom, and the rich man could speak to Abraham, but could not go to Abraham.

 This would have been the same place in which the witch of endor raised Samuel for Saul; and Samuel told Saul he would be in the same place the next day. It is also the same place Jesus referred to as paradise to the thief on the cross.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 28, 2014)

Israel said:


> Please consider something Gem said a few posts back, as he reiterated something our Lord told us...regarding it be better for "one" had they not been born.
> If the reward for iniquity is annihilation...that's not worse than never being born...it is...precisely from the iniquitous one's point of view (having none), the same.



I'll have to think about that one. Maybe Hobbs has an answer.
Why would it have been better to have never been born, if no He11?


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## Israel (Apr 28, 2014)

I never know when being honest is needful or just self indulgence.
Some might think, there's no way to be honest outside the Lord, that is to say, walking in the truth is not something that can be done apart from grace. But being honest is not necessarily the whole of a truth, and certainly not the whole of the truth...it's merely being forthright with one's perceptions as best as can be.


I am a man. I believe I have seen Jesus alive in many "infallible" proofs. Outwardly they are surely disputable...and frequently are, by some. I live among many that do not receive this testimony. That's been shown to me to be of no concern, and actually needful...both to me, and those who who would resist. But, that's another matter of sorts.

As said, I am a man...who believes he "believes" in the Lord Jesus. I say that as God alone is judge. 
But...even being that man, I discover I yet like my own way, I like (what I yet see as) my own stuff, I like my own purposes to be received, and I am irked to greater and lesser degrees to find my own will being resisted, or thwarted.  I do not like what I consider inconveniences, and I do not appreciate those times when I believe I am being taken advantage of...whether real...or imagined. That's my honesty. 
Whether any are harmed in it, that is, does my honesty encourage such behavior amongst those (disciples) who might say "well, this man says he is saved, and he is just like "me", therefore I can continue as a believer in such a manner myself without care...it would seem being self centered and confessing Jesus are "OK".
And, likewise, an "unbeliever" might say "This man who says he has faith is no different than me, I too, like my "own"...therefore, obviously his so called faith has done nothing for him".
This is where "my" honesty, if left of itself, could be perhaps, a terrible testimony.

But...

None of what I say "about myself" does anything to diminish the Lord and his testimony. I still see One who, when also in a temple of flesh, considered his "own" will, own words, own ways and even his own life (which is actually sum of all the "owns") of so little import as to freely (not obligation, not compulsion, not coercion) surrender to the will of his Father in all things. 
Though calling him Lord, and seeking an understanding of him as savior, I still find such a seeker woefully short of his character.

I can say "I don't want to be the man who wants his own will in everything, I don't want to be the man who gets frustrated at times and would lay waste to all of creation if the "self destruct" button of the universe were easily handy.  I don't want to be the man that futilely kicks the dirt and screams imprecations when a bolt breaks, a roof still leaks after repair, a dog pees for the tenth time on my handiwork."
Who can save me from this body of death?
I only believe one can...and, he tells me...despite all of me that screams otherwise as to outcomes, it is his will to do so.
Where we all will appear is in the Lord's hands alone. I can make no claim "for myself".

But I fear when I consider that part of me that seems ever present, ready, in the "background" testifying against the true testimony that this is all for good and a perfect purpose, and would instead hear, "this is all woefully constructed by a malicious hand, and the truth of all of it is "life sucks, and then, you die".

I don't want to be that man that laughs at that, thinking he, and that, is clever. For I fear where that man will appear when the Lord's glory is fully known.

God could, I believe, and does, let such a man have all his own cleverness, forever.
Again, some may say, "where's torment in that?"
If you have to wonder, consider again the lesson of the erring steward. He, too, is judged by his "own" word.

For I hear the Lord answer such a one..."if you truly believed life sucks, you would not have imagined the dying to be the even more the negative you implied by your capping off your cleverness with it. And so, since you consider all of life of so little import but just a lead in to your clever punch line...here...you may have your punch line, but I gather away from you all that LIFE truly is, and leave you to yourself."

Where even a sniff of hope, a whisper of promise, an inkling that there may be "another" to relate to, the slightest of promptings to turn and discover what life truly is, WHO life truly is...is gone forever from your knowing.

And such a one may tell himself for eons and eons and uncountable eons..."I knew it, I knew it, I knew it is hopeless and terrible...I knew it...see, I am right...I knew it, I knew it, I knew it! I knew it!" 
And none is there who can hear or answer. For each of "that one" hears only its own word.
Forever.
It is not good for the man to be alone.
Forever.
Where the worm dieth not.
Forever.
Not good.
Forever.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 28, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'll have to think about that one. Maybe Hobbs has an answer.
> Why would it have been better to have never been born, if no He11?



A lot of people have made that decision on their own, hence suicide. When we love this world more than our Lord it is better that we were never born. Look at the wealthy that lose it all over night such as in the great depression, many of those chose death over life because their worldly possessions were gone.


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## Israel (Apr 28, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> A lot of people have made that decision on their own, hence suicide. When we love this world more than our Lord it is better that we were never born. Look at the wealthy that lose it all over night such as in the great depression, many of those chose death over life because their worldly possessions were gone.



Luk 12:2  For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known. 
Luk 12:3  Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops. 
Luk 12:4  And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 
Luk 12:5  But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 28, 2014)

Israel said:


> Luk 12:2  For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.
> Luk 12:3  Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.
> Luk 12:4  And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
> Luk 12:5  But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.




Brother Israel...This he11 that is spoken of is Gehenna. Gehenna was a place. It is a mistake to translate any real place ( city name) it remains the same pronunciation regardless of language. 
 The Jews of that time would have understood these verses totally different than we do, because they knew Gehenna was a cursed land in which the bodies of criminals were cast into.


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## Israel (Apr 28, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Brother Israel...This he11 that is spoken of is Gehenna. Gehenna was a place. It is a mistake to translate any real place ( city name) it remains the same pronunciation regardless of language.
> The Jews of that time would have understood these verses totally different than we do, because they knew Gehenna was a cursed land in which the bodies of criminals were cast into.


I am not sure if you are saying Jesus is instructing his hearers to fear someone who would throw their dead body into a smouldering trash dump...or...is it something else?
He, himself, had little regard as to what was done with his body, no?
Cursed is everyone that hangeth on a tree...


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## hobbs27 (Apr 28, 2014)

Israel said:


> I am not sure if you are saying Jesus is instructing his hearers to fear someone who would throw their dead body into a smouldering trash dump...or...is it something else?
> He, himself, had little regard as to what was done with his body, no?
> Cursed is everyone that hangeth on a tree...



Yes & Yes. It was important to the pharisee that they have a proper burial. They would have feared being thrown into a city dump. 

I think what is even more important and truth exposing is that just 40 years later, those that stuck to the Jewish faith and stayed in Jerusalem; the ones that did not heed the warnings and the signs of Matthew 24 were killed by the Romans. The Roman army then cast the bodies in Gehenna just as Jesus had warned..1.1 million of them. This is according to the history we have by the eyewitness Josephus.


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## Israel (Apr 28, 2014)

So, fear the Romans?
Not "Fear him"?
But "Fear them"?
Again...it appears Jesus had little fear of Rome.
Oh, "it" wanted him to..."know you not I have power to kill you or let you go?", Pilate preened.

Jesus boldly reminded him there is One higher to whom all answer.
And Jesus answered only, according to the Father's will.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 28, 2014)

Israel said:


> So, fear the Romans?
> Not "Fear him"?
> But "Fear them"?



The message was turn to Jesus and the new kingdom or be cast into Gehenna. Those that believed took heed in the warnings, they saw the signs and left. It was indeed the Romans that sieged upon Jerusalem, but they were directed by God; because the word had already gone out, that that generation would see the destruction of the temple, not one stone left upon another. The Romans were merely the Almighty's instrument. Titus himself admitted this-- and he was a non believer.


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 28, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> A quick question Hobbs. Do you believe the rich man was a real man or do you think Jesus was just using this as a parable.


I believe it to be a parable. Just as cast into utter darkness can not mean a firey place.


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## Israel (Apr 28, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> I believe it to be a parable. Just as cast into utter darkness can not mean a firey place.


 Now that's peculiar indeed, isn't it? Not that parables are less true than so esteemed "facts", but they could be seen as something less than the truth if one wants to view them as such.
One would think that of the many things Jesus knew his disciples "longed" to look into, it would be "what happens after you die?" It would seem strange to me, that so knowing, (and I don't doubt he did) that his hearers had an intent interest in that...he would manufacture a distortion, even if one views this as "parable", and not a true history of both Lazarus and a rich man.
I don't see it as such, but it appears some do. Jesus never tells me what I don't need to know, and in doing so, of the things I do need to know, I have never found him to be less than all the truth.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 28, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> I believe it to be a parable. Just as cast into utter darkness can not mean a firey place.



If not a parable, do souls have lips?

24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

Jesus said ; No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.

Did the rich man see men in Heaven?


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 28, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> If not a parable, do souls have lips?
> 
> 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
> 
> ...


Keen eye you got there


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## Israel (Apr 29, 2014)

When we wake up and discover _we_ are the parable, _we_, are the metaphor, _we_ are the ones who dwell in the land of images and representations, and that the reality...the true substance of spirit, by the which we at best seek to apprehend in a mind that is, again, at best an image of the true mind, then these things spoken by the Lord in the land of images, begin to take the form of truth in us.

That it is spoken in images, to images, is not the matter at hand. That it _was_ spoken in words that were compressions of air falling upon a device made by the hearer of all things and recorded on and by perishable instruments, again, is not even the heart of the matter.

The question becomes for us, as it has been from day one for our only seemingly distant father Adam...is the Lord a trickster...speaking of things to us, only to keep the best for himself? Does Jesus "make up stuff" as is commonly done in the land of images that does not testify of the true nature of things? Does he speak of "how things are"...but not really ever to the true heart of their being?
Do the dead rise?
Were Moses and Elijah recognizable as the Lord gave them substance to be seen? What is water...really? What is bread...really?
What are we...really?


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## hobbs27 (Apr 29, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> If not a parable, do souls have lips?
> 
> 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
> 
> ...



No, the rich man and Lazarus were in the same place, "hades".  They were in different compartments of the same place that doesn't exist anymore.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 29, 2014)

The key to the parable  about Lazarus & the rich man, is about helping poor people. Many verses from Jesus against rich people and not helping poor or sick people. Rich people tied up into themselves not helping anyone else.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 29, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> The key to the parable  about Lazarus & the rich man, is about helping poor people. Many verses from Jesus against rich people and not helping poor or sick people. Rich people tied up into themselves not helping anyone else.



I thought it was more about , " Love one another".

I've been in situations where it was better to deny food and money to the poor, because I was enabling them to continue a life of abuse. They wouldn't help themselves because others were taking care of them, and it took them hitting rock bottom to realize a change was necessary 

Either way Jesus said it and I believe it, whether it was a direct commandment or in a parable Jesus being the word of God is unable to lie.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 29, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I thought it was more about , " Love one another".
> 
> I've been in situations where it was better to deny food and money to the poor, because I was enabling them to continue a life of abuse. They wouldn't help themselves because others were taking care of them, and it took them hitting rock bottom to realize a change was necessary
> 
> Either way Jesus said it and I believe it, whether it was a direct commandment or in a parable Jesus being the word of God is unable to lie.



I remember one night as a kid a couple stopped by our old country Church, called someone to the door, and said they needed a handout as they were hungry. The preacher asked us what we wanted to do saying they could be scamming us. We decided to passed the plate and they were off. 
My wife & I recently stopped to help a young lady having car trouble in the rain. Someone said we shouldn't have stopped as her boyfriend could be hiding in the woods. 
Yes sometimes tough love is needed though. I'll just use my God given ability to understand his meaning of helping the sick and poor. I can only help and if this help is abused that's between them and God.
There is a saying; take advantage of me once, shame on you. Take advantage of me twice, shame on me.

I would assume there is much more to Lazarus and the rich man that we could delve into concerning Israel, Jews, Gentiles, & Jesus.


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## Israel (Apr 29, 2014)

Israel is, and has always been who wrestles with God and prevails...not over Him, but in the not relinquishing until the blessing is received.
Paul and John spoke of this (though I am sure many others have received the revelation) "those who say they are Jews, but are not", in one place; and "he is not a Jew who is one outwardly", in another.
When confronted as to whether Pilate's words came from himself or another in regards to Jesus' being King, Pilates uninspired response was simply "am I a Jew?"
Jesus knew he was sent first to the lost sheep of Israel, that the promise to the fathers might be fulfilled. But Jesus also walked understanding his Father is not the Father only of those who "say" they are the children of the _once_ faithful, but to any and all who have received the revelation of the son of God manifested through himself.
Pilate's answer showed Jesus he was still bound by "this god" "that god" depending upon the earthy identity of the responder. As Jesus both knew and spoke of the many that would be called:

"And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven."
He was ever on the lookout for faith, himself even marvelling, at times, where it might be found.
And so it remains.

Do you have faith in the Lord Jesus?

"Of course I do, I am a christian..." is the entirely wrong response.


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## gordon 2 (Apr 29, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> The key to the parable  about Lazarus & the rich man, is about helping poor people. Many verses from Jesus against rich people and not helping poor or sick people. Rich people tied up into themselves not helping anyone else.



I  don't know exactly why yet, but I "feel" that the spiritually poor are poorer than the poor.

I have often times wondered on the words, " “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” (NIV Mark 2:17)


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 29, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> I  don't know exactly why yet, but I "feel" that the spiritually poor are poorer than the poor.
> 
> I have often times wondered on the words, " “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” (NIV Mark 2:17)



True but Jesus preached so much about helping others that I think he literally meant it. I think helping is a part of the love that Jesus preached about. 
He also did a good bit of preaching against rich people. Possibly because he felt they weren't helping the poor enough. Maybe it was related to worshiping their money, sinful things they did with money, and greed. Jesus was against greed. He felt it wrong for people to be living wealthy while poor people lived terrible lives.


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## Israel (Apr 30, 2014)

members, one of another.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 30, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> True but Jesus preached so much about helping others that I think he literally meant it. I think helping is a part of the love that Jesus preached about.
> He also did a good bit of preaching against rich people. Possibly because he felt they weren't helping the poor enough. Maybe it was related to worshiping their money, sinful things they did with money, and greed. Jesus was against greed. He felt it wrong for people to be living wealthy while poor people lived terrible lives.




 Follow the spirits lead. If you are suppose to help someone you will feel the obligation tugging at you. 

 If you just go through life blindly handing out what God has blessed you with , you're not being a good steward. 

 "Little children, love one another", was the message John preached. 
 BTW, there is no place in the bible that describes a place of eternal torment, and there is no place that Jesus, or the Apostles  preached on a place of eternal torment.


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## gordon 2 (Apr 30, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> True but Jesus preached so much about helping others that I think he literally meant it. I think helping is a part of the love that Jesus preached about.
> He also did a good bit of preaching against rich people. Possibly because he felt they weren't helping the poor enough. Maybe it was related to worshiping their money, sinful things they did with money, and greed. Jesus was against greed. He felt it wrong for people to be living wealthy while poor people lived terrible lives.



I think your right. How people "lived" in small town and rural Galilee  compared to Jerusalem and Judah must of been remarkable to a wide eyed Galilean. Probable like coming from rural El Salvador to North America for the first time, the values must of been striking. Also I think that Galilee had a sense of "nation" or "patriotism" that Judah had not at least with the same intensity. Judah being in bed with the Romans Gallilee was agitated internally for independence from their oppressors, if I recall my history lessons.

The constants paintings of agricultural scenes to make parables probably indicated the more fundamental values. This has always intrigued me regards the value of water,  of bread and wine vs other sacrifices and the sacred.

Also, the prophets of course always pointed out the rise and fall from blessing to humiliation, from wealth and return to captivity because resources  and justice was not shared.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 30, 2014)

I also think Jesus meant us as individuals helping others. As already mentioned governments do a terrible job of helping people. They do create dependency problems. 
Maybe we have made improvements in helping others than in Biblical times. I can't see too many Americans passing by a robbed and beatened person without helping. Maybe in other countries one still does that. We probably do know when and how to help as the Spirit leads.


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## Israel (Apr 30, 2014)

I believe we have a good example...even as to allowing his gift (if only for a time) to be squandered. Or, unappreciated if that sounds better.
Didn't I heal ten lepers...?


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## gemcgrew (May 1, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> If there is a place of eternal torment for lost souls God is just as justified as if there is not.


I understand. When I considered the notion of annihilation a few years ago, I found it to lessen God's love, his storing of wrath, his justice and the work and accomplishment of Christ. I believe a proper biblical worldview will cause us to reject this notion in it's entirety.


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## gemcgrew (May 1, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> BTW, there is no place in the bible that describes a place of eternal torment, and there is no place that Jesus, or the Apostles  preached on a place of eternal torment.


Perhaps the scaring or collecting "professions of faith" from men was of no importance.


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## hobbs27 (May 1, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> I understand. When I considered the notion of annihilation a few years ago, I found it to lessen God's love, his storing of wrath, his justice and the work and accomplishment of Christ. I believe a proper biblical worldview will cause us to reject this notion in it's entirety.



So a belief in a place set aside for eternal torment of lost souls, in which has come to us by the way of paganism And not of scripture, makes the Almighty God an even better God?
 Am I understanding you correctly?


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## gemcgrew (May 1, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> So a belief in a place set aside for eternal torment of lost souls, in which has come to us by the way of paganism And not of scripture, makes the Almighty God an even better God?
> Am I understanding you correctly?


I do not think you are understanding me at all. You have entered a slippery slope that I have traversed a time or two. I thank God for the wall of hedges that prevented me from reaching my own end. Your focus has somewhat been on Jesus and the Apostles in what they said directly about he11. 

Just consider that all the words of the Bible are the words of Jesus, not just the red ones. To reject a Christian doctrine because you feel that there are not a "ton of scriptures" to support it, will be quite a ride in itself.


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## hobbs27 (May 1, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Just consider that all the words of the Bible are the words of Jesus, not just the red ones. To reject a Christian doctrine because you feel that there are not a "ton of scriptures" to support it, will be quite a ride in itself.



The original intent of this thread was to show somewhere in the bible that a place of eternal torment for the unrighteous existed. I haven't seen it yet.

 He11( a place of eternal torment for unrighteous souls) is a Christian doctrine today, but it wasn't in the 1st century church, it came to us by way of paganism , that's why there is no scripture on it whatsoever.


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## gemcgrew (May 1, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> The original intent of this thread was to show somewhere in the bible that a place of eternal torment for the unrighteous existed. I haven't seen it yet.
> 
> He11( a place of eternal torment for unrighteous souls) is a Christian doctrine today, but it wasn't in the 1st century church, it came to us by way of paganism , that's why there is no scripture on it whatsoever.


But there is and that is my point. I have no way of presenting my whole view or understanding to you. All I can do is trust that God, in time, will bring it together for you. I will pray for you... pray for me...


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## hobbs27 (May 2, 2014)

Gem, I appreciate the prayers, and return the pleads to God for you also.

 I do not know enough about (annihilationism) to say that is what I believe. What I do know from this thread, scripture, and a couple of books I've read on this issue now is that when a man stands before me and warns me and others of being tormented for eternity, its hogwash. I know this because that man can't connect his preaching to Gods word, and if mans preaching can't be backed by Gods word then that man has put himself into the sermon, which I understand to be a no-no.


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## ecole (May 4, 2014)

I was reminded of this verse this morning while studying and don't remember seeing it in this thread. Jude 6-7 And the angels which kept not their first first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them, in like manner giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


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## Artfuldodger (May 4, 2014)

ecole said:


> I was reminded of this verse this morning while studying and don't remember seeing it in this thread. Jude 6-7 And the angels which kept not their first first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them, in like manner giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.



Sinning Angels
Examples of Judgement

 c[he11] Greek: tartaroo (GSN-5020), from tartaros (Latin, tartarus), a dark abyss; a
place of punishment.  Only here.

Eight Facts About Tartarus:

1.A prison for angels (2 Peter 2:4)

2.Located under the earth (2 Peter 2:4)

3.A place of confinement for angels until the judgment (2 Peter 2:4; Rev. 20:11-15;
Jude 1:6)

4.A place visited by Christ when He went to - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - (Psalm 16:10; 1 Peter 3:19)

5.A place of darkness (Jude 1:6-7)

6.A place of eternal fire (Jude 1:7)

7.A place of vengeance (Jude 1:7)

8.The word is used only here, but in Greek writings tartarus was held to be a place in
the earth lower than hades where the Titans, the primeval deities or the giants who
were supposed to be the first children of the earth and even older than the Greek
gods, were cast when they lost their war with Zeus 

http://home.comcast.net/~wolfpakron/AngelSins.html


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## ecole (May 4, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Sinning Angels
> Examples of Judgement
> 
> c[he11] Greek: tartaroo (GSN-5020), from tartaros (Latin, tartarus), a dark abyss; a
> ...



I was more concerned with verse 7, "are set forth for an example,* suffering the vengeance of eternal fire*.


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## Israel (May 4, 2014)

Men well understand the cruelty of "solitary confinement", for it is ministered in unrighteousness, here, in this realm. Men also understand, when under its sentence, the reduction of themselves to but one desire...to communicate, to express oneself, and be heard. And to receive confirmation of that, in return. To _know_ there is another available to communion.
Men have also experienced the insanity that can be engendered, when left only to themselves.

When malignity of soul is judged as hopeless, that is, if, and when, a soul sees its sole communications have been in the service of malice, alone...it's just reward is being "cut off"...that is, being locked up to itself, with itself. To, in a sense, leave it to its own dreadful desire to infect. To feed upon itself what it would serve up to others.
The self consuming of a soul is indeed that place where the worm dieth not, the fire is never quenched, and utter darkness is all.

There is a remedy. To be found...in time.


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## hobbs27 (May 4, 2014)

ecole said:


> I was more concerned with verse 7, "are set forth for an example,* suffering the vengeance of eternal fire*.



_7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire._

 Sodom and Gomorrah faced the same vengeance as Jerusalem did in AD 70. They were destroyed by Gods eternal fire...if this was in reference to the unrighteous it would be proclaiming them to be consumed and destroyed---by a fire that is forever, not that they would burn forever because Sodom, Gomorrah, and Jerusalem have all been burned but once they were consumed it was over and done.


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## ecole (May 4, 2014)

Sodom and Gomorrah faced the same vengeance as Jerusalem did in AD 70. They were destroyed by Gods eternal fire...if this was in reference to the unrighteous it would be proclaiming them to be consumed and destroyed---by a fire that is forever, not that they would burn forever because Sodom, Gomorrah, and Jerusalem have all been burned but once they were consumed it was over and done.[/QUOTE]

If that was the end of Sodom and Gomorrah, specifically  the people of Sodom and Gomorrah,  why does Jesus say " It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city."? Is Jesus not speaking of a coming  judgment rather than a past judgment. A Future Eternal Judgment that is the vengeance of eternal fire. That will be worse for " whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words" Matt 10: 14. If Gods judgment is for the unrighteous to be burned up and cease to exist what does he mean " More tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city"? It wasn't over and done.


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## hobbs27 (May 4, 2014)

_6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,

10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.

12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.

13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.

14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
_

 He was talking about the judgement that came in 70 ad upon the jews that did not enter the kingdom of heaven. It was horrible.


_"It was to this event, the most awful in history -- 'one of the most awful eras in God's economy of grace, and the most awful revolution in all God's religious dispensations' -- that we must apply those prophecies of Christ's coming in which every one of the Apostles and Evangelists describe it as near at hand. To those prophecies our Lord Himself fixed these three most definite limitations -- the one, that before that generation passed away all these things would be fulfilled; another, that some standing there should not taste death till they saw the Son of Man coming in His kingdom; the third, that the Apostles should not have gone over the cities of Israel till the Son of Man be come. It is strange that these distinct limitations should not be regarded as a decisive proof that the Fall of Jerusalem was, in the fullest sense, the Second Advent of the Son of Man which was primarily contemplated by the earliest voices of prophecy." -- F.W. Farrar (1831 - 1903)_


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## hobbs27 (May 4, 2014)

BTW, those that did not enter the kingdom of heaven and stuck with the old testament religion did not heed to the signs of the end. They stayed in Jerusalem and were slaughtered. 1.1 million of them. Then their bodies were cast into gehenna, a place of a dump that has been mistranslated as he11. Jesus warned them they were in danger of being cast into Gehenna.... not he11.


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## ecole (May 4, 2014)

I just spent the last 30 min typing a long response, and I somehow  just erased it all. 

There was probably an educated answer to all the scripture that had come to my mind anyway, so I will just say good night, and God Bless.

But I will leave with this warning from Paul,

I Tim 6: 3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.


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## Artfuldodger (May 4, 2014)

ecole said:


> I just spent the last 30 min typing a long response, and I somehow  just erased it all.
> 
> There was probably an educated answer to all the scripture that had come to my mind anyway, so I will just say good night, and God Bless.
> 
> ...



I hate when that happens and you can never regain all of your thoughts. 
That's a good message from Paul which reiterates what every Christian should do. Find doctrine to back up what you believe. If there is a shadow of doubt then one must not add one's own thoughts or denominational upbringing into the mix. Easier said than done.

  The easiest answer is "let the mystery be." That too is easier said than done.

So on the subject of eternal punishment, will one be alive during this punishment? By "alive" I mean will they be a spirit/soul or a body & soul?


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## ecole (May 4, 2014)

So on the subject of eternal punishment, will one be alive during this punishment? By "alive" I mean will they be a spirit/soul or a body & soul?[/QUOTE]

John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -ation.

Daniel 12: 2 and many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life,  and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Act 24:15 that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. Then in Revelation 20: 11-15 we see resurrected just and unjust stand before God, and the books opened. Death and - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -, and whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So for a simple answer, one will be alive in resurrected body.

Jesus describes it in Mark 9: 44,46,48 as a place " where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Thats why back in verse 42 he says that it would be better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. Why would it be better? because to be cast into the sea he would just perish but in he11 it will be eternal torment.

Didn't I just cover all this in great detail, Oh yea I erased it


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## ecole (May 4, 2014)

He was talking about the judgement that came in 70 ad upon the jews that did not enter the kingdom of heaven. It was horrible. quote

I don't think Jesus was talking about the destruction of Jerusalem in Matt 10: 15. The people of Sodom and Gomorrha were not there in 70ad. Jesus said it would be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. Was he not speaking of a judgment day in which both those that would not hear the disciples words, and Sodom and Gomorrha would be together? Revelation 20: 11-15.


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## hobbs27 (May 4, 2014)

ecole said:


> I don't think Jesus was talking about the destruction of Jerusalem in Matt 10: 15. The people of Sodom and Gomorrha were not there in 70ad. Jesus said it would be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. Was he not speaking of a judgment day in which both those that would not hear the disciples words, and Sodom and Gomorrha would be together? Revelation 20: 11-15.



 I appreciate your participation in this thread, let us look at Matthew 10 closer.

Verse 6 tells us who the disciples are to go to..( the lost sheep of Israel) which was the poor souls that had been misguided by the Pharisee and Saducee.

Verses 7-10 is instructions as to what to do and what not to do as they go to the lost sheep.


Verse 14-15 Jesus explains what will happen if the city or home does not accept the message---- it will be worse on them than it was on Saddom & Gomorah...

 What am I missing?

Revelation 20:11-15. Read Matthew 24:34-35..and ask ; when was heaven and earth to pass away?


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## Israel (May 5, 2014)

It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.

"shall be" speaks of some coming judgment, not already endured.

"The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.

Again, I would have to ask regarding this:
But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -. Yes, I tell you, fear him.


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## hobbs27 (May 5, 2014)

Israel said:


> Again, I would have to ask regarding this:
> But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -. Yes, I tell you, fear him.



The word he11 here is mistranslated from Gehenna. How can I say this? Because Gehenna is a real place, a place Jews of that time knew as a cursed land, a place that criminal corpse were dumped. A place you can visit in Israel today. Places like city names do not change through translation. Gehenna is Gehenna.


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## ecole (May 5, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I appreciate your participation in this thread, let us look at Matthew 10 closer.
> 
> Verse 6 tells us who the disciples are to go to..( the lost sheep of Israel) which was the poor souls that had been misguided by the Pharisee and Saducee.
> 
> ...



Israel covered your first question as to what you were missing so I will deal with Matt 24.

This section begins at verse 32 with a parable of the fig tree, and ends with verse 34 with this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Then in verse 35 concerning his words, every thing he ever said, Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. Jesus is not telling us when heaven and earth will pass away, he is just saying that what he says is truth and will come to pass. His words will stand forever unlike the heaven and earth that will pass away.


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## Artfuldodger (May 5, 2014)

ecole said:


> So on the subject of eternal punishment, will one be alive during this punishment? By "alive" I mean will they be a spirit/soul or a body & soul?



John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -ation.

Daniel 12: 2 and many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life,  and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Act 24:15 that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. Then in Revelation 20: 11-15 we see resurrected just and unjust stand before God, and the books opened. Death and - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -, and whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So for a simple answer, one will be alive in resurrected body.

Jesus describes it in Mark 9: 44,46,48 as a place " where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Thats why back in verse 42 he says that it would be better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. Why would it be better? because to be cast into the sea he would just perish but in he11 it will be eternal torment.

Didn't I just cover all this in great detail, Oh yea I erased it[/QUOTE]

Do those verses prove sinners don't go to He11 in an intermediate state?


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## hobbs27 (May 5, 2014)

ecole said:


> Israel covered your first question as to what you were missing so I will deal with Matt 24.
> 
> This section begins at verse 32 with a parable of the fig tree, and ends with verse 34 with this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Then in verse 35 concerning his words, every thing he ever said, Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. Jesus is not telling us when heaven and earth will pass away, he is just saying that what he says is truth and will come to pass. His words will stand forever unlike the heaven and earth that will pass away.



Actually Jesus wasn't telling us anything. He was speaking to His disciples.

And it doesn't start toward the end of the chapter, and it doesn't miraculously change in the middle. Jesus didn't for some strange reason change entirely what He was talking about


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## Artfuldodger (May 5, 2014)

15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

This day of judgement, will it be an actual future one day event? 
If it will be then how do you explain our judgement when we die at the beginning of our intermediate state?


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## ecole (May 5, 2014)

Hobbs, I was speaking specifically about the parable of the fig tree, it begins at verse 32. You ask me to Read Matthew 24:34-35..and ask ; when was heaven and earth to pass away? Verse 35 is not dealing with the heaven and earth passing away. Its about his word not passing away. I realize that he was speaking to his disciples, but Gods word is to all who read, he that has ears to hear, let him hear. 

I don't get involved the discussions on this forum very often, but I enjoy it when I do. I hope you find the answers you are look for. I am quickly getting to the point that I am going to be repeating myself, with the same scriptures so I will let y'all have it.


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## hobbs27 (May 5, 2014)

ecole said:


> Hobbs, I was speaking specifically about the parable of the fig tree, it begins at verse 32. You ask me to Read Matthew 24:34-35..and ask ; when was heaven and earth to pass away? Verse 35 is not dealing with the heaven and earth passing away. Its about his word not passing away. I realize that he was speaking to his disciples, but Gods word is to all who read, he that has ears to hear, let him hear.
> 
> I don't get involved the discussions on this forum very often, but I enjoy it when I do. I hope you find the answers you are look for. I am quickly getting to the point that I am going to be repeating myself, with the same scriptures so I will let y'all have it.



Again I appreciate your participation in this thread. I need to be challenged on this so I can be sure. It is discussions with those I disagree with that I tend to learn the most, For the life of me though I can't understand how anyone can read Matthew 10 and not understand the homes and city's that were to come under a judgement were those homes and city's in Israel in that time that did not accept the message the disciples were giving them....reading that chapter into our future is a major bending of God's word in my opinion.

 I also disagree that any of the bible is written to us, but it is all written for us.


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## gemcgrew (May 5, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I also disagree that any of the bible is written to us, but it is all written for us.


Hobbs, does the Holy Spirit reveal it for you or to you?


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## hobbs27 (May 5, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Hobbs, does the Holy Spirit reveal it for you or to you?



When I first questioned this, I thought someone would quickly show really good scripture to prove a place of eternal torment for the unrighteous. When that didnt happen and I started reading and studying the issue, I found out some things that troubled me. I found out I have been lied to by preachers my whole life about the issue, and I found out that none of the churches I attend would even hear of this discussion.

 I was troubled at what I was seeing.

 Notice all the (I's) above.   Thats when the Holy Spirit stepped in and gave me comfort in what I was seeing. Without the Holy Spirit I wouldnt have been strong enough to question the church----without the Holy Spirit the reformation would have never happened.

 I was reminded of a parable of Jesus:


Matthew 7:24-27


24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

 My faith is built on the rock of Christ, not of men and tradition. In my studies I have found a lot of questionable (to say the least) things about our so called church fathers after the 1st century. They were so corrupt their writings weren't even considered to be in the bible. 

 Christ church reigns within men of all kinds of denominations, but His reign has nothing to do with a denomination or church tradition. I trust only the words of God and the Holy Spirit.

So the Holy Spirit reveals it to me and for me, but what we read is for us not to us.


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## 1gr8bldr (May 5, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> The word he11 here is mistranslated from Gehenna. How can I say this? Because Gehenna is a real place, a place Jews of that time knew as a cursed land, a place that criminal corpse were dumped. A place you can visit in Israel today. Places like city names do not change through translation. Gehenna is Gehenna.


And that is what the writer hand in mind when he wrote the passage. Today we have to be careful not to go beyond the writers intent


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## Israel (May 6, 2014)

All of these responses about Gehenna yet beg a very simple question...
Is Jesus advising, instructing, demanding we be afraid our earthy bodies end up in a trash heap?

Or...as you prefer (it seems) Jesus was only advising those whose many practices, traditions, even vain concerns about things of the flesh, and bodily rituals...should really fear the Romans? If so, why did Jesus show so little fear before Pilate? Like, none at all, as far as I can see. He didn't disrespect Pilate, but he was surely not cowed by him.


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## Artfuldodger (May 6, 2014)

Israel said:


> All of these responses about Gehenna yet beg a very simple question...
> Is Jesus advising, instructing, demanding we be afraid our earthy bodies end up in a trash heap?
> 
> Or...as you prefer (it seems) Jesus was only advising those whose many practices, traditions, even vain concerns about things of the flesh, and bodily rituals...should really fear the Romans? If so, why did Jesus show so little fear before Pilate? Like, none at all, as far as I can see. He didn't disrespect Pilate, but he was surely not cowed by him.



I guess it would be about how the Jews viewed what death is and what everlasting life through Jesus meant.
The Romans were fulfilling prophesy through Jesus.


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## hobbs27 (May 6, 2014)

Israel said:


> All of these responses about Gehenna yet beg a very simple question...
> Is Jesus advising, instructing, demanding we be afraid our earthy bodies end up in a trash heap?



 No, we are not to be afraid of being cast into a trash heap. That warning was clearly to the Jews of that time & it has come to pass as we know from history. 

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


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## gemcgrew (May 6, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> No, we are not to be afraid of being cast into a trash heap. That warning was clearly to the Jews of that time & it has come to pass as we know from history.


If we step away from the physical, in regard to the Jew(Romans 2:28), what would we do with Gehenna?


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## hobbs27 (May 6, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> If we step away from the physical, in regard to the Jew(Romans 2:28), what would we do with Gehenna?



What was warned to happen has come to fruition, so I don't know what we could do with Gehenna other than what the Israelis are doing with it today. It's a tourist attraction.


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## gemcgrew (May 6, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> What was warned to happen has come to fruition, so I don't know what we could do with Gehenna other than what the Israelis are doing with it today. It's a tourist attraction.


So let us remain in the physical... I agree with you.


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## Israel (May 6, 2014)

I am asking if the instruction contains something greater than anyone's (past Jew, modern Jew, past Pharisee, present Pharisee or even past/present disciple) in this:

But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

Even with this body being dead...it would appear there is a still a "you" in danger of something...AFTER.

But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -.


It would appear there is a danger remaining...regardless of Rome's incursions, or the reluctance to flee Jerusalem...something "else" can invite being thrown into "Gehenna"...and again, if I have heard the spirit correctly...it has nothing to do with someone being carried bodily to a trash dump.
Even, today.


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## hobbs27 (May 6, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> So let us remain in the physical... I agree with you.



Im being accused of spiritualizing too much in another thread.. We could spiritualize that Gehenna as being he11, but you wouldnt like the outcome of that either I dont think. The trash has rotted and decomposed. It no longer exists, therefore it was not eternal.


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## gemcgrew (May 6, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> We could spiritualize that Gehenna as being he11, but you wouldnt like the outcome of that either


I do not fear the outcome. The New Testament word for he11 is Gehenna. 

What I will not do is diminish the wrath of God, for it diminishes the blood of Christ.


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## hobbs27 (May 6, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> I do not fear the outcome. The New Testament word for he11 is Gehenna.
> 
> What I will not do is diminish the wrath of God, for it diminishes the blood of Christ.



Actually, there's Gehenna, Hades, and Tartarus. Take your pick which one you want to be he11, they are all three different places. None of which are places of eternal torment.


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## gemcgrew (May 6, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Actually, there's Gehenna, Hades, and Tartarus. Take your pick which one you want to be he11, they are all three different places. None of which are places of eternal torment.


In your research of Gehenna, what took place there prior to being used as a dump?


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## hobbs27 (May 6, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> In your research of Gehenna, what took place there prior to being used as a dump?



Infant sacrifices to a false god.


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## 1gr8bldr (May 9, 2014)

A thought, if Jesus decended into he11 .... and he preached... and he set captives free.... had they been burning.... had they been being tormented? The answer will be no. But I thought that is what he11 meant. You see, there is no he11 before "the lake of fire" which is a different place, a place created for the devil and his angels. A place where they will be tormented because they are eternal. A place where humans will be destroyed because they are immortal. Otherwise it would be eternal life for all


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## Artfuldodger (May 9, 2014)

That Jesus actually descended into He11 while His body was in the tomb!
(Was this after he took the thief on the cross to Paradise?)

 Christ preached to the spirits in prison.
(even though his work was finished?) (maybe it was more of a "I told you so" sermon.")


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## Artfuldodger (May 9, 2014)

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

His preaching could have been after his resurrection. He was quickened or made alive by the Spirit of God. Before that he was dead in the heart of the Earth as in his tomb. He was in his tomb for three day like Jonah was inside the big fish for three days.
I thought it was a common belief that Jesus was dead for three days and quickened by his Father's spirit.
Does everyone believe Jesus really died and was quickened by his Father?


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## 1gr8bldr (May 10, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> 1 Peter 3:18
> For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
> 
> His preaching could have been after his resurrection. He was quickened or made alive by the Spirit of God. Before that he was dead in the heart of the Earth as in his tomb. He was in his tomb for three day like Jonah was inside the big fish for three days.
> ...


Most people, not me believe Jonah was alive in the fish. But I point out that then "the sign of Jonah" was what? I'm wondering if my way of bringing out my points... by asking a question.... comes across correctly????


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## hobbs27 (May 10, 2014)

I remember once an old preacher that I love dearly made the strangest comment. It was right after the tsunami in 2004 that was caused by an underwater earthquake. He stood in sunday school and pointed this out as a sign of the end-times because the eartquake happened in " divers places"..ie underwater. 

 As I read some of these comments on he11 I cant help but to wonder how much of this belief is caused by innocent ignorance.


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## Artfuldodger (May 10, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Most people, not me believe Jonah was alive in the fish. But I point out that then "the sign of Jonah" was what? I'm wondering if my way of bringing out my points... by asking a question.... comes across correctly????



I've never even considered Jonah to be dead in the belly of the fish. I've been doing some serious soul searching on this. I'm glad to have brothers like you, and all of the GON family to help me test the spirits. 
My studies has taken me here, there, everywhere, and even back again. I'm not sure I'll ever be as complacent in my knowledge as I once was however I am much more free.
I'm experiencing a new level of freedom & assurance that was once not attainable due to my ties to legalism. I don't feel my quest of knowledge  is necessary for salvation as I once did. 
The most important thing I've learned besides salvation is living by loving is more important than living by rules or gaining knowledge. It doesn't do me any good to learn all of this "Jesus stuff" if I don't put it to practice. The knowledge gaining is the easy part.
This still requires a balance.
(end of ramble)


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## 1gr8bldr (May 13, 2014)

Banjo Picker said:


> The souls of the righteous at physical death before the resurrection of Christ were held captive by the devil in paradise in the lower parts of the Earth (Heb. 2:14-15; Eph. 4:7-11). Both the righteous and the wicked were in the same underworld of departed spirits with a great gulf between the two departments (Luke 16:19-31). This is why the penitent thief went with Christ into paradise the day of the crucifixion (Luke 23:43). This paradise was located in the lower parts of the Earth or the heart of the Earth (Matt.12:40; Eph. 4:7-11). *Christ descended into He11 and liberated all these righteous souls* and took them to Heaven with Him when He ascended on high (Eph. 4:7-11; Ps. 16:10; Acts 2:25-36). Now when a righteous person dies his body goes back to dust again and he himself goes to be with Christ in Heaven (2 Cor. 5:8; Eph. 3:14-15; Phil. 1:21-23; Heb. 12:23; Rev. 6:9-11). At the rapture these righteous souls in Heaven will come back with Christ and enter new bodies (Thess. 4:13-16; 1 Cor. 15:23, 35-38; Phil. 3:20-21). The wicked dead will remain dead until the Millennium is over and then they will be resurrected and judged and then sent to eternal He11 (Rev. 20:4-15).


So he11 is or is not a place of eternal torment? Seems your saying it was not at first but became so later? Or part of he11 was and part of he11 was not?


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## Artfuldodger (May 14, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> So he11 is or is not a place of eternal torment? Seems your saying it was not at first but became so later? Or part of he11 was and part of he11 was not?



I think the confusion comes from interpreters using He11 for too many different places. People get Hades confused with the Lake of Fire.

Revelation 20:13-14
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.


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## Artfuldodger (May 14, 2014)

Banjo Picker said:


> (1) He11 (Matt. 16:18; Luke 16:19-31). This prison was the torment department in the unseen world and was, still is and yet be the abode of all the wicked souls and spirits of men from Abel to the end of the Millennium. Then at this time all the wicked will be liberated out of this prison and will be given immortal bodies and be judged before being cast into the lake of fire forever (Rev. 20:11-15; 21:8).
> 
> (2) The Greek word Hades in the above verses literally means the unseen world, or the world of departed spirits. It is the equivalent of the Hebrew word Sheol, and is never used to denote the grave, the Abyss, Tartarus, or the etenal lake of fire where the wicked will be tormented forever and ever. Wicked souls and spirits are now in a conscious state of torment (Luke 16:19-31). This temporary place of torment before the judgment and the eternal He11 might be compared to the city or county jail where prisoners are kept until their trial. Thus human souls went into two different prisons in the underworld before Christ conquered death, He11, and the grave. There was a great gulf between the two prisons (Luke 16:26).



That is more logical than a wicked person going as a soul to the same place he will end up as a body.


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## hobbs27 (May 15, 2014)

Banjo Picker said:


> (1) He11 (Matt. 16:18; Luke 16:19-31). This prison was the torment department in the unseen world and was, still is and yet be the abode of all the wicked souls and spirits of men from Abel to the end of the Millennium. Then at this time all the wicked will be liberated out of this prison and will be given immortal bodies and be judged before being cast into the lake of fire forever (Rev. 20:11-15; 21:8).
> 
> (2) The Greek word Hades in the above verses literally means the unseen world, or the world of departed spirits. It is the equivalent of the Hebrew word Sheol, and is never used to denote the grave, the Abyss, Tartarus, or the etenal lake of fire where the wicked will be tormented forever and ever. Wicked souls and spirits are now in a conscious state of torment (Luke 16:19-31). This temporary place of torment before the judgment and the eternal He11 might be compared to the city or county jail where prisoners are kept until their trial. Thus human souls went into two different prisons in the underworld before Christ conquered death, He11, and the grave. There was a great gulf between the two prisons (Luke 16:26).




 I dont understand how the author of this can claim it still is a place of the wicked then turn around and say it is a place they went until Christ conquered death, he11, and the grave.

 If people are still going to a staging place then Christ has not conquered anything. I believe He has!


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