# What would you like to ask here, but don't..



## Kris87 (Jun 29, 2015)

The DIY subforum had good success in its first year.  I get a lot of pm's everyday about all kinds of archery topics.  I know some guys don't want to ask questions on a public forum, but let's change that.  Please ask some questions here leading up to bow season.  If u want PM me and I'll just answers here.  If I don't know I'll find the answer from a forum member.  Let's get a lot of guys involved here so we can help other archers.  Who's in?


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## deast1988 (Jun 29, 2015)

Question: FOC, light vs heavy pros and cons.

Real world set ups, what do u use example what do some other folks use or like.

I like heavy not sure my FOC but it tends to drive through.  Just wanted to hear your thoughts on actual hunting arrow set up.


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## Kris87 (Jun 30, 2015)

deast1988 said:


> Question: FOC, light vs heavy pros and cons.
> 
> Real world set ups, what do u use example what do some other folks use or like.
> 
> I like heavy not sure my FOC but it tends to drive through.  Just wanted to hear your thoughts on actual hunting arrow set up.



If you know your arrow's specs, which is likely, you can use the FOC calculator on Gold Tip's website to accurately calculate your FOC.  I use it all the time.  My current arrow is a GT Velocity 300, using a 125gr head, 10gr insert, 20gr weight on the back of insert, 4" wrap, blazers, and acculite nocks.  That setup weighs 430 grains and has a FOC of 15% which is pretty good.  My two hunting bows shoot that arrow 295 and 299.  I consider it a medium/heavy setup at medium speed.  I like my hunting arrows to be under 300fps.  They just shoot broadheads better at a manageable speed.  

I think guys should basically build their arrows around their setups.  If you shoot lower poundage, then shoot a medium weight arrow with a COC head to get good penetration.  I'm a big fan of large cut mechanicals, but even with my setup, I don't always get passthroughs.  I can live with that due to the damage inflicted with the large cut.  There are certainly some mechanicals that out penetrate others.  That should also be considered.  Are you trying to punch a 2" hole on both sides of the animal?  Not a lot of setups can do that and do it every time and still get passthroughs.

For whitetail, I wouldn't want to shoot any arrow under 375gr or thereabout.  And I don't think you can go too heavy, not many downsides there.  

For a very detailed write up on this same subject, everyone should check out the article Tim Knight wrote in this month's GON.  Its a good read.  I messaged Tim that I'm glad this type of material is being published again.  As soon as archers starts believing in the benefits of heavier arrows, the industry will follow and build better, heavier heads.  Luckily, Tim is already doing that.


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## deerbandit (Jun 30, 2015)

I need some help with my setup.

Bow is a 2011 PSE X Force Dream Season. I have the Trophy Ridge React Sight the one with 5 pins that automatically adjust when you sight it in at 20 and 30 yards. QAD HDX Rest, and GT Warrior arrows. Pulling 70# at 28" shooting 355 grain arrows at 321fsp. Had it setup at River Bottom Outdoors down near Franklin. Bow was shooting great all last year, then:

I noticed my peep was coming lose so I went to a local shop and the bow technician tide it back in and said he turned the string two times.

Well now when I shoot I'm on at 20, 30, 40 yards. At 50 and 60 yards it is way off, bad enough I can use the 50 yard pin at 60 yards and the 60 yard pin at 70 yards.

I haven't adjusted the sight since it says all pins are adjusted off the 20 and 30 yard pin and those pins are hitting good, also the fact it was shooting good before it had the minor work done.

Would him turning/twisting the string cause a jump just on those pins? If so do you know how to correct this? I thought about resighting it in but figured it would be the same is all the pins are adjusted off the 30 yard pin. 

I know that all probably confusing but I wasn't sure how else to write it.


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## Kris87 (Jun 30, 2015)

Without writing a long drawn out response, if it were me, I'd shoot the bow from 40 yards as much as you can.  Make 100% certain that its on at 40 yards using the correct pin.  If it is, its really not possible for the gap to be off that much.  

I would like to see a picture of the pin spacing.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 30, 2015)

Point weight.

Everybody just default uses 100gr heads.  But with all the discussion about FOC, it seems like logically 125 would be a better option in almost all cases......right?

That's something I've never really understood.  It seems like, if the best setup for an arrow is to have as much weight as you can afford forward of center, then why doesn't everybody shoot 125 grains?


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## alligood729 (Jun 30, 2015)

Huntinfool said:


> Point weight.
> 
> Everybody just default uses 100gr heads.  But with all the discussion about FOC, it seems like logically 125 would be a better option in almost all cases......right?
> 
> That's something I've never really understood.  It seems like, if the best setup for an arrow is to have as much weight as you can afford forward of center, then why doesn't everybody shoot 125 grains?



For the most part, everybody has been sold the idea that faster is better, and 100 grain heads have been the standard for years. Trust me, I'm one of the "get it as fast as I can" guys, and that's all I wanted for  several years. Last season I went from one extreme to the other, from a 340gr arrow, to a 440gr arrow. I dropped below my sacred 300fps, but I'm shooting that 440gr arrow at 285fps, which packs plenty of pop, and is plenty fast enough. That's an awesome setup for my short draw and 60lbs. FOC is beyond crazy, and arrow flight is like a laser. Bow is smoother at the shot, a little quieter. Much better setup.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 30, 2015)

That's kind of what I'm thinking.  I'm shooting right at 60# (don't know the speed, but I would guess somewhere around 275-285 just looking at the IBO on the bow and knowing it will be less than advertised).  

I'm leaning hard toward 125 heads and that should put me at about 425gr on the arrows.  Using Gold Tip's calculator, it looks like I'll be somewhere in the 13.5-13.9% range.  But would be around 11.9% with a 100gr head.  So, it's not a gigantic difference I guess.  But about 1% more with the heavier head.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 30, 2015)

I guess my real question is why if high FOC desirable?

This is from Gold Tip:

"A F.O.C. value range of 7-10 percent is widely used as the best for a good balance between arrow range and arrow flight stability."

If that's true, then why is everybody pushing as hard as they can to get in the 13-15% range?


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## Kris87 (Jun 30, 2015)

Would I change up my setup and spend money on new heads to get a 1% increase in FOC?  No, I wouldn't.  You probably wouldn't notice much difference.  You also have to remember that some arrows are going to group better with one head weight over another.  I know most guys here don't do that type of testing, but its true nonetheless.  

I like the 13-15% mark just because I've found my setups very easy to tune there, and my groups are always very good.  I never have any issues with broadheads once I started focusing more on my arrows, and my whole tune.  One overlooked thing in regards to head weight also is strength.  Much, much easier to build a strong 125gr head than a 100gr head.  I'd bet if all the broadhead manufacturers had it there way, they'd be building heads in the 150gr range.  You can do a lot when you get into that category.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 30, 2015)

Kris,

Do you have an explanation as to why such a high FOC works better given that traditional wisdom says 7-10?


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## Ihunt (Jun 30, 2015)

Huntinfool said:


> I guess my real question is why if high FOC desirable?
> 
> This is from Gold Tip:
> 
> ...



Look at arrows like darts. They are. Take a cheap light dart that isn't very heavy and throw it. Now get a good dart that heavy out front and throw it. The one with the heavier FOC will track/fly better. Within reason, so will your arrow. Just remember, adding weight to the front weakens your spine.


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## hoytslanger87 (Jun 30, 2015)

I have always had a strong interest in tuning bows and getting one to shoot as good as it possible can. I have never really trusted or liked any of the archery shops I've been to. (not a big fan of charging me $100 to take 20 min and eyeball everything).

My question is how do y'all feel about the super tuners that many of us see and use on the internet. I sent my vector 32 to a well know hoyt tuner last year and the work was great, but I always wondered would it shoot better if the paper tuning and bareshaft would have been shot by me and tailored to my shot and grip?


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## Kris87 (Jun 30, 2015)

Huntinfool said:


> Kris,
> 
> Do you have an explanation as to why such a high FOC works better given that traditional wisdom says 7-10?



The other guy kind of answered it.  It just helps the arrow recover quicker out of the bow.  I'm sure we've all thrown arrows in the backyard at some point.  Take an arrow with no point and throw it compared to one with a point.  While that's an extreme example, it the same thing.  

Traditional shooters know this all too well.  They deal with a lot more arrow paradox than mechanical release shooters.


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## Kris87 (Jun 30, 2015)

hoytslanger87 said:


> My question is how do y'all feel about the super tuners that many of us see and use on the internet. I sent my vector 32 to a well know hoyt tuner last year and the work was great, but I always wondered would it shoot better if the paper tuning and bareshaft would have been shot by me and tailored to my shot and grip?



I'm of the opinion that each and every bow likes a certain grip to shoot its best.  The same grip someone likes and has shot for years may not be the best for their next bow purchase.  I see this all the time.  

Would it have been better for someone to tune the bow to you?  I don't think so.  I think its better for you to learn the proper grip, proper release execution, etc.  Most tuners are pretty good shooters, at least the ones I know are.  They know how to get the most out of a certain bow.  If I tune someone's bow while they're present, then I watch all the variables, and I also shoot the bows myself.  If I find that its shooting great for me, but only slightly off for the shooter, then I might would make a change to account for it.  It just depends on what the change would be.


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## hoytslanger87 (Jun 30, 2015)

I agree when I first got my bow back I wasn't seeing the results I expected. After talking to Shane  for about a week who was very helpful and learning the importance of your grip  I seen a big difference in my shooting. Thanks of your opinion


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## lblanton1 (Jun 30, 2015)

this is a good thread


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## rarcher (Jun 30, 2015)

Deer bandit, I shot this same sight for a while last year, I found indeed to tweak it a little at the further distances. 
This didn't change the closer settings that much.
the couple twist that was added could change both your peep and nocking point by a little.


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## BlackEagle (Jun 30, 2015)

deerbandit said:


> I need some help with my setup.
> 
> Bow is a 2011 PSE X Force Dream Season. I have the Trophy Ridge React Sight the one with 5 pins that automatically adjust when you sight it in at 20 and 30 yards. QAD HDX Rest, and GT Warrior arrows. Pulling 70# at 28" shooting 355 grain arrows at 321fsp. Had it setup at River Bottom Outdoors down near Franklin. Bow was shooting great all last year, then:
> 
> ...



I'm going to add a little to this, I shot this sight before I switched over to the React 1. Shooting that fast, your pin gaps are going to be fairly tight at 20, 30. I too had my 50 yard and beyond pin hitting lower than they should have after a while. All it was, was my string stretching. Not that this is your problem, but just one of many suggestions that could be. 
I will also add that in my opinion, that sight is more effective if sighted in at 20, then 50. With those speeds the slightest error while setting your 30 yard pin could be more critical at 50 yards. Try sighting in at 20 and 50. Then your 30 and 40 will be on the money.


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## FromAcrossThePond (Jul 1, 2015)

Question; sighting in new sight, should you have the first pin (20 yard) in the middle of the sight and therefore adjust the entire sight, or set the sight and adjust the individual pin? Or is it just individual taste? Am using APEX 5 pin sight, with first pin set at 20 yards. Thanks! Joe


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## Kris87 (Jul 1, 2015)

Joe, I typically would set my middle pin in the middle of the housing.  This would help keep your anchor consistent from top to bottom.  

That said, I shoot a 3 pin slider, and use my bottom pin as the floater.  With this type setup, I have the floater centered more in the middle of the housing.  My 20 yard pin(top pin) is higher in the housing.  

As long as your anchor is consistent, it really shouldn't matter much.  Good question.


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## Beagler282 (Jul 1, 2015)

I'm shooting 52lbs with a 370 grain arrow at 258fps calculated out at 54.7 on the kinetic energy scale. I have been using the standard Slick Trick broadhead and get passthru with them.I really like the results of the expandable blades but not sure my setup will work with them.I bought some Rage 40ke but the blades would just flip open all the time.Do you think my setup would work with the bigger expandables and which brand would work the best for me?


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## Kris87 (Jul 1, 2015)

Beagler282 said:


> I'm shooting 52lbs with a 370 grain arrow at 258fps calculated out at 54.7 on the kinetic energy scale. I have been using the standard Slick Trick broadhead and get passthru with them.I really like the results of the expandable blades but not sure my setup will work with them.I bought some Rage 40ke but the blades would just flip open all the time.Do you think my setup would work with the bigger expandables and which brand would work the best for me?



I too like big cut mechanicals, but with your setup, I would not recommend them.  You're already shooting a great penetrating head with the Slick Trick.  If you wanted to try another head with more cut, then I'd try the Ramcat.  Its arguably the best penetrating head there is, and offers more cut than the Slick Trick.  But in short, I'd stay clear of the mechanicals.  Good luck.


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## fountain (Jul 1, 2015)

hoytslanger87 said:


> I agree when I first got my bow back I wasn't seeing the results I expected. After talking to Shane  for about a week who was very helpful and learning the importance of your grip  I seen a big difference in my shooting. Thanks of your opinion




You aren't too far from a very good tuner that will tune the bow and would allow you to try it in your hands as well and possibly tweak it to you.  
The bow shop in Hazlehurst will be your best bet and isn't too far from dublin


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## fountain (Jul 1, 2015)

Kris is all pretty spot on with the f.o.c. stuff.

I shot trad only for about 5 years and learned a lot about tuning.  Shooting very competitive,  a lot of times, how well you were tuned with your arrows would be the determining factor on who wins a tournament in poor conditions.  mostly we tried to tuned an arrow to the bow.  I would bare shaft and play with point weight to get the stiff/weak issues out.  Many variables would affect what you ended up with, but just as with compounds, you could have a target weight and meat that need pretty well.  My main trad set up was 540 gr and had a lot of f.o.c and they hit hard.  I like to have 10gr per pound of draw weight.
 Speed wasn't an issue with them..you just focused on being the best shot you could be and let the rest happen as it may.  Many people shooshoo recurve and longbow are pushing wide, cut on contact heads very well.   A tuned arrow and f.o.c are the reasons that happens.  

Today, for most compounds, I feel that 350 gr arrows and up are perfectly fine.  The speeds help to push them good.  You just have to be the judge depending upon the head you want to shoot.  If you want to shoot a large expandable,  then you may want to up your arrow weight....all keeping it spines correct for your set up. There are a ton of ways to do this now days.  

My personal set up is going to be a 400 gr 340 gold tip with a 100 gr head.  If I wanted more f.o.c., I would likely go to the 300 spine hunter or even the velocity and up the point or insert weights, depending upon  my final goal

Going for max speed and hunting can go together and sometimes it can get you in trouble with penetration.   There are many articles to help with this.  Dr Ashby wrote what many consider the f.o.c. by-laws..he has a great write up on building hunting arrows, mostly from the trad side, but you can still get the point.  A weak combo will provide poor penetration with a lot of paradox.  This isn't as much an issue with compounds, but in the trad world it's pretty important.  It will still roll over to the compounds as well, if you're not in the correct spine range, you can have tuning troubles and could possibly lead to accuracy troubles as well

A heavier/slower arrow will also typically be a little more forgiving on the shot.


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## The Arrow Guru (Jul 1, 2015)

I could chime in if anyone would like. 

Two things that the marketing side of the archery industry has done is sold it's consumers on speed and kinetic energy being the most important things in an archery set up. Physics and a little common sense will show otherwise.

First lets talk about kinetic energy. Kinetic energy is at best a measurement of how efficient a bow is. If you take a bow that is set up and you shoot a selection of arrows through a chrono. Say, 350, 400, 450, 500, and 550 grains. You will get roughly the same KE. Does that mean that the potential for penetration will be the same for each arrow? Short answer, no. A baseball weighs 149 grams and thrown by a major league pitcher can reach 95 MPH, this would give the baseball roughly 100 lbs of kinetic energy. Does that baseball have a great potential for penetration? No, or there would be many batters killed every year. What kinetic energy doesn't measure us mass and momentum. Sir Isaac Newton said that a body in motion tends to stay in motion unless another force acts on it. The more mass an object has, the more this law of physics acts on it. So, my personal opinion, heavier is better. However, two arrows that weigh the exact same but one has the weight evenly distributed and one has a higher percentage in the front will not perform the same. The one with more weight in the front will have more potential for penetration. 

Now lets talk about speed. To bring this into prospective lets say there are two archers standing on the goal line of a football field. They both release an arrow at the exact same time and their target is at the other goal line. One arrow leaves the bow at 280 FPS and the other leaves the bow at 300 FPS (every ones accepted thresh hold of a "fast bow"). When the arrow that left at 300 FPS strikes the target, the arrow that left the bow at 280 FPS is crossing the ten yard line. How much time would elapse before that arrow hit the target too? Fractions of a second. Now bring that to the average bow shot of 20 yards, what would be the measurable difference in the time it would take for both arrows to leave the bow and strike it's target? Can't measure it. The amount of arrow drop is also blown way out of proportion. 

All of this information is null and void without perfect arrow flight and the arrow hitting the vital area of an animal.

It has been a trend for people to use lighter and lighter poundage and lighter and lighter arrows. 

The number of times I have been watching a hunting show and saw pitiful arrow flight shows that not everybody pays attention to arrow tune.

Animals are shot bad with bad arrow flight and get little to no penetration and of course, blame it on their broad head! LOL

Mass + high FOC X PERFECT arrow flight = maximum penetration

I am personally using a 165 grain broad head, 42 grain brass insert on an arrow that has a total weight of 485. I consider this a medium weight arrow. I shoot a full 70 pounds and almost went to 80 this year but was talked out of it........

Sorry to highjack Kris, but felt like typing.


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## The Arrow Guru (Jul 1, 2015)

This is a video everyone should watch


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## The Arrow Guru (Jul 1, 2015)




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## Ihunt (Jul 2, 2015)

Most of us have jumped on the speed bandwagon along our archery journey. I did. Makes us wonder how we killed deer back in the 80's. 

I will be shooting 50lbs this year. I can still pull 70+ but  I hurt in my shoulders and elbow when I do. I shot 60 the past few years but my 50lb Delta 6 will be pushing my 390 grain arrow around 275fps. I am pretty sure the deer will be just as dead.


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## Ihunt (Jul 2, 2015)

Another point I would like to make to the less experienced is try to shoot a setup that gives you two holes in the deer. 

The blood trail will come from the exit hole and that's why it's so important. A deer that's shot from an elevated stand will usually have the entrance hole up high. If there is no exit, the blood trail could be nonexistent.


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## Huntinfool (Jul 2, 2015)

I'm pretty sure I'm going to take the grizzly stick challenge just to see, first hand, the difference between a 'normal' arrow weights and super heavy arrows.  

For $50, they will build two arrows to your specs and send them to you.  Expensive?  yeh.  But I think it's worth it just to have the real world experience.

Plus....if I ever want to bowhunt an elephant....I'll have arrows I guess!


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## 660griz (Jul 2, 2015)

FromAcrossThePond said:


> Question; sighting in new sight, should you have the first pin (20 yard) in the middle of the sight and therefore adjust the entire sight, or set the sight and adjust the individual pin? Or is it just individual taste? Am using APEX 5 pin sight, with first pin set at 20 yards. Thanks! Joe



For a 5 pin sight, I usually put the 20yd pin as high in the housing as possible. Just to ensure there is room for the 60 yd pin at the bottom.
Then adjust entire housing to dial in 20 pin, individual pins thereafter.


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## FromAcrossThePond (Jul 2, 2015)

660griz said:


> For a 5 pin sight, I usually put the 20yd pin as high in the housing as possible. Just to ensure there is room for the 60 yd pin at the bottom.
> Then adjust entire housing to dial in 20 pin, individual pins thereafter.



Thanks! I had not thought of that, having transitioned from a 3 pin sight. Only really have room in the back yard to sight in 20 yard, so will get that done this this afternoon and head to a range over the weekend.


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## hoytslanger87 (Jul 2, 2015)

If you build a high foc arrow do you need to go to a stiffer spine than normal?


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## Kris87 (Jul 2, 2015)

hoytslanger87 said:


> If you build a high foc arrow do you need to go to a stiffer spine than normal?



Not always.  Will it weaken the arrow?  Yes.  But modern compounds can shoot a pretty wide range of spines.  Think about it....we really only have three popular spine choices.  400, 340, and 300's.  That's very few shafts to cover a lot of draw lengths, draw weights, shaft lengths, and point weights.  

I did a lot of bareshaft tuning last year using the same shaft without changing anything in my setup, and my arrows shot 125gr weights way better than 100gr weights, and my arrows were borderline weak.  It should have been the opposite but wasn't.  

Bows are a lot like centerfire rifles when it comes to reloads.  Certain guns like certain loads, charges, etc.  I can guarantee you if you took any bow, same arrow, same setup, and shot 4 different head weights out of it with a hooter shooter, it would prefer one head weight over the others.  Guarantee it.


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## Ole3Toe (Jul 2, 2015)

Kris i read the article by Tim Knight in GON. 58lbs, 280fps, 165 grain head through both shield plates on a pig says alot! Thats all the evidence i need.


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## Nathanj519 (Jul 2, 2015)

BIGRNYRS said:


> I could chime in if anyone would like.
> 
> Two things that the marketing side of the archery industry has done is sold it's consumers on speed and kinetic energy being the most important things in an archery set up. Physics and a little common sense will show otherwise.
> 
> ...



After reading Tim knights article, this thread, and Dr. Ashbys work, I'm definitely on board with upping my arrow weight and increasing my FOC. Should I stay in the 400-500 grain range or go even heavier? I shoot a 65lb obsession knightmare (I'm looking for some 70lb limbs) with 29.5 inch draw and only hunt whitetail. And what do u think of the GrizzlyStic 650 grain whitetail package? Is it overkill for ga deer?


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## Kris87 (Jul 2, 2015)

Nathanj519 said:


> After reading Tim knights article, this thread, and Dr. Ashbys work, I'm definitely on board with upping my arrow weight and increasing my FOC. Should I stay in the 400-500 grain range or go even heavier? I shoot a 65lb obsession knightmare (I'm looking for some 70lb limbs) with 29.5 inch draw and only hunt whitetail. And what do u think of the GrizzlyStic 650 grain whitetail package? Is it overkill for ga deer?



I personally don't think you can go to heavy, however, I build my whitetail setups so that I can keep my speeds between 280-300fps.  Deer are thin bodied game, and not that hard to shoot through, so I choose to go with moderate weight at moderate speeds.  My arrows this year are 430gr, and the last 5 years I shot 460gr.  The only reason I changed is because I dropped to a thin walled, stiffer 300 spine shaft that allowed me to build more FOC and still have good weight.  As a rule of thumb for whiteail, I like to recommend an arrow that weighs between 6-7grains per pound of draw weight.  That generally will yield good speed and a good weight.


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## Ihunt (Jul 2, 2015)

Nathanj519 said:


> After reading Tim knights article, this thread, and Dr. Ashbys work, I'm definitely on board with upping my arrow weight and increasing my FOC. Should I stay in the 400-500 grain range or go even heavier? I shoot a 65lb obsession knightmare (I'm looking for some 70lb limbs) with 29.5 inch draw and only hunt whitetail. And what do u think of the GrizzlyStic 650 grain whitetail package? Is it overkill for ga deer?



I would stay in the 400-500 grain range . The 650 grain weight is the limit for busting through bone. As Kris stated, deer are not that tough. Also, if you go with a 650 grain arrow you will have to shoot a very heavy head to get a high FOC.


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## The Arrow Guru (Jul 2, 2015)

When it comes to penetration potential I don't believe that there is actually any "over kill". However the rule of thumb is use the heaviest arrow that gives you acceptable trajectory. In Kris case "acceptable" would be in the speed range he designated. For you, you might not care if the arrow drops below 280 FPS. 

Southern Whitetails are pretty thin, but it's a matter of wether you want optimal, or close to optimal.


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## Kris87 (Jul 2, 2015)

BIGRNYRS said:


> When it comes to penetration potential I don't believe that there is actually any "over kill". However the rule of thumb is use the heaviest arrow that gives you acceptable trajectory. In Kris case "acceptable" would be in the speed range he designated. For you, you might not care if the arrow drops below 280 FPS.
> 
> Southern Whitetails are pretty thin, but it's a matter of wether you want optimal, or close to optimal.



This is entirely true.  I will say though a 180 lb Buck is no 100 lb doe.  They're much tougher.  I hunt KY whitetails every year too, and they're some fat suckers.  Just evaluate your own setup and be confident in it.  That's 99% of it.


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## Kris87 (Jul 2, 2015)

Again, good thread for all.  Thanks for all the questions and answers.  Let's keep it going.  

What's next?


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## The Arrow Guru (Jul 2, 2015)

FOC is also a little misunderstood. The actual calculation to find a true FOC is so complicated most engineers don't use it. The basic and simple way archers do it basically gives you a way to compare one arrow to another. More is definitely better in this regard but far from a presice measurement.


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## C Cape (Jul 3, 2015)

Awesome thread.  Another good idea Kris.

I built some Kinetic 340's with 160 grains in the front weighing at 503 Gr with a wrap and AAE Max 3.0's.  Out of my rival they shoot 275-276 and fly awesome out to 100 yards.  Another big plus to me is how much quieter it makes the actual bow.  There is a huge difference between 450 and 500 grains listening inside the shop.


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## Nathanj519 (Jul 3, 2015)

I think I'm going with some BE zombie slayer 300s with 42 grain brass inserts and a 125 head (drt single bevel, ramcat, or bipolar). I'm also ordering the 10 and 20 grain screw in weights to play with my FOC. Should put my total weight in the 460-480 range with an FOC of 15-16%. Speed should be somewhere above 280, atleast according to the online calculators. Thanks for all the input. Great thread!


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## Kris87 (Jul 3, 2015)

I use the weights on the back of my inserts for my setup, but if you use the 42gr insert and 125gr heads, you should be good to go with a nice FOC arrow.


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## bowhunterdavid (Jul 3, 2015)

I started shooting gold tip kinetic kaos 400 this year with the brass insert up front, 425 grains total, I was shooting the other day at 70 yards and missed which don't happen much and hit my solid oak fence and that arrow blew right through it, that has never happened with others arrows I shot before and I have hit the fence several times. Im all about kinetic energy now .


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## cself (Jul 3, 2015)

I am planning on doing more blind hunting this year. So my question is in a blind there is obviously less light so how much does that effect being able to see your sights in late evening early morning situations? I have lighted sights but just wanted to know if it Wes a big difference.


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## Kris87 (Jul 3, 2015)

cself said:


> I am planning on doing more blind hunting this year. So my question is in a blind there is obviously less light so how much does that effect being able to see your sights in late evening early morning situations? I have lighted sights but just wanted to know if it Wes a big difference.



Its a huge difference.  If I hunted in a blind a lot, I'd definitely want a light to illuminate your pins.  You don't want it to be super bright either, just enough that you can see them.  You will not be able to see your peep very well either, so you'll need to be confident in your anchor.  I would practice it and you will see what I'm talking about.  I shoot from inside my basement with no lights, out into the yard, and even when its sunny out, its still hard to make out the pins and peep.


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## cself (Jul 3, 2015)

Great tip on the anchor I have experience with that hog hunting and not being able see the peep.


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## spydermon (Jul 3, 2015)

A rheostat light will be good for getting the brightness you prefer in your set up.  Some lights make the pins a huge blurry and they all seem to run together.  A rheostat light with several settings can help with that


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## spydermon (Jul 3, 2015)

This isn't really a question,  but a statement. ...challenge yourself while shooting and practicing.   Shoot distances out of your normal practice ranges.  Shot 60, 70- 100 yard shots if you can and shoot them a good bit.  This will help a lot with the 40 and 50 yard shots.  Also shoot the smallest spots or aiming points you can see at whatever range you are shooting from.  Try for arrow sized holes 20 and 30 yards..this can help build a mental focus that you can use when hunting.  Rather than aiming at a general location, you may can pic out a patch if hair, or a ruffed up spot on the animal,  or something that stands out to you.  Aiming very small can help to take you focus off the "buck fever"  part and help execute a good shot.  Finding a certain aiming spot is curtail in the shot routine..focus on that until the arrow is in that spot. 

Most set ups now days are more than capable of penetrating anything we could shoot here in ga.  Focus hard on disciplining yourself shooting and get tough on being the best shot you can.  Couple that with some "common sense broadhead choices " and you will be good to go.  Don't buy into the commercials on TV about what head is the best based on who shoots them or how big they are.  Shoot what works best out of your set up and what you are comfortable with.  Also, have a back up head in mind and ready to go in the game should you need one for a different scenario. .i.e., you shoot an expandable primarily and find yourself in a ground blind and need something to reliably shoot through the mesh accurately.  I would recommend any expandable through mesh, although some can do it, I'd just go with a nice fixed head of some sort


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## Ihunt (Jul 3, 2015)

Be careful turning on your sight light inside the blind. I had a doe come into  a food plot one evening at dusk. When I turned on my light to shoot her,it made the inside of the blind glow just a little. That nanny saw it and was gone before I knew what happened.


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## Stump Shooter (Jul 4, 2015)

I think the arrow weight thread is a Game Changer for a lot of bow hunters who will read it and take the time to understand it. Most of the times a new bow hunter will walk into an archery shop get a properly spine arrow screw a 100gr head on there and think they are good to go. They are most of the time, but when things go bad that little extra weight most likely would have gotten them over the hump. GREAT post!


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## spydermon (Jul 4, 2015)

2nd and 3rd axis talk.  I see most sights now are coming with these and some have optional extensions you can get with them built in.

I don't fully understand all of the tech info on them.  One of my buddies has a montana black gold with the long extension and his looks funny to me.  The head is out of line withealth the rest or something and all he can say is that it's the 3rd axis.  I too have the black gold sight, but mine is on the standard bracket.   I'm really wanting to try the hogg father, but I'm scared I'm going to have to deal with the 3rd axis there too.  What if it's all not set up right?  I don't really know how to set them and don't want to be unsure and not totally confident in the sight.


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## The Arrow Guru (Jul 4, 2015)

spydermon said:


> 2nd and 3rd axis talk.  I see most sights now are coming with these and some have optional extensions you can get with them built in.
> 
> I don't fully understand all of the tech info on them.  One of my buddies has a montana black gold with the long extension and his looks funny to me.  The head is out of line withealth the rest or something and all he can say is that it's the 3rd axis.  I too have the black gold sight, but mine is on the standard bracket.   I'm really wanting to try the hogg father, but I'm scared I'm going to have to deal with the 3rd axis there too.  What if it's all not set up right?  I don't really know how to set them and don't want to be unsure and not totally confident in the sight.




The first axis on a sight is that the sight is perfect 90 degree perpendicular alignment to the bow string. The second axis is the top and bottom of the pin housing is parallel to the string and the third axis is the alignment of the pin housing left and right is parallel to the face of the bow.

These alignments are important when shooting uphill, downhill, or on uneven terrain.


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## Brewskis (Jul 7, 2015)

Good idea for a thread and general resource. I have some concerns regarding anchor point.

While shooting this past weekend, I was playing around with my anchor point, and noticed that the vertical location of my anchor point had a direct impact on vertical POI (lower anchor point - higher POI; higher anchor point - lower POI). Is this generally true? 

If so, I'm looking for some direction on where it is generally recommended to anchor when shooting with a wrist strap release, and tips for consistency/verifying that anchor point each time. I realize to a certain extent it's personal preference, and when tying in my peep sights, I've tried the 'close your eyes and open them where you 'naturally' anchor' method. However, oddly enough, it seems this 'natural' anchor can vary slightly from time to time, and any slight variation has led to vertical misses.

Not sure how much sense this made, but I'm bringing it up since I think it's one of two factors that most often results in inconsistent shooting for me personally. Generally, I attribute any left/right misses to grip and torque related to it (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).


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## alligood729 (Jul 7, 2015)

Brewskis said:


> Good idea for a thread and general resource. I have some concerns regarding anchor point.
> 
> While shooting this past weekend, I was playing around with my anchor point, and noticed that the vertical location of my anchor point had a direct impact on vertical POI (lower anchor point - higher POI; higher anchor point - lower POI). Is this generally true?
> 
> ...



Question makes perfect sense. For me, using a wrist strap, I have 3 anchor points. The string hits the tip of my nose, center, the corner of my mouth, (lots of folks use a kisser button) and the last knuckle of my release hand,  the knuckle right at my fist goes in that little "pocket" under my ear. I know lots of guys use that  same 3 points, may vary a touch, but that does give you something to look at or work on. Ya gotta have something solid to use as anchor points on every shot.....


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## Kris87 (Jul 7, 2015)

If you're having high/low misses because of anchor point, then you're not utilizing the peep and sight housing properly either.  You're correct that a high anchor would cause a low miss and vice versa.  

I'd evaluate how hard and consistently you're pulling through the shot.  Hybrid cams can have vertical inconsistencies because of creep issues.  If you're tired, and shots start missing low, then that's a good sign.


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## DMCox (Jul 7, 2015)

I have a question on shooting from an elevated position vs shooting on level ground. I've heard that this will change POI to some degree. The only chance I get to practice from an elevated position is my porch which is only about 10' up, I shot a doe last year from about 25' up and aimed just as I would on level ground and hit right where I aimed. Is there any truth to the statement, did I somehow get lucky and hit where I aimed from 25' up? Also I had a shot on a deer another time while coming out of the woods up a hill, I aimed normally there as well, but my arrow went low. Now this one could have been a misjudged range, but would the deer being higher than me have changed how I should have been aiming? Thanks for the help!


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## Brewskis (Jul 7, 2015)

Appreciate it guys. I have the string to center of nose point down. I think the main one I sometimes struggle with is where my hand contacts my face. Perhaps I'm not feeling locked into it consistently because it is sitting out on the side of my face instead of in the 'pocket' you're talking about. I'll give that a try. Only thing I can think of is that I may not be able to reach back that far. If so, would I lengthen my release? Lengthen my D-loop?

I'd say I'm pretty good about checking sight housing/peep sight alignment before shooting by verifying that my sight ring is showing evenly inside of my peep before shooting. However, if I'm noticing a need to move my face in order to get the proper sight ring alignment through the peep, would that mean I'm anchoring inconsistently? 

Your point about fatigue though makes a lot of sense too since the low misses are usually after shooting somewhere around 30 arrows. At that point, I notice that I really have to be paying attention to all aspects of my form.


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## Kris87 (Jul 7, 2015)

DMCox said:


> I have a question on shooting from an elevated position vs shooting on level ground. I've heard that this will change POI to some degree. The only chance I get to practice from an elevated position is my porch which is only about 10' up, I shot a doe last year from about 25' up and aimed just as I would on level ground and hit right where I aimed. Is there any truth to the statement, did I somehow get lucky and hit where I aimed from 25' up? Also I had a shot on a deer another time while coming out of the woods up a hill, I aimed normally there as well, but my arrow went low. Now this one could have been a misjudged range, but would the deer being higher than me have changed how I should have been aiming? Thanks for the help!



You must be utilizing a proper T formation shooting from your stand.  That's the key to hitting where you're aiming.  You should always try and bend at the waist and keep the upper T formation the same as you would on level ground.  If you just drop your front bow arm to aim low, then yes, you'll miss high most of the time.  

I do think some of where you hit at very close range, say right under your stand, has some to do with your setup too.  Peep height for one has an effect on it.  I do encourage everyone to practice straight down shots if you plan on taking one to see where your arrows hit.  If I shoot straight down, my arrow hits just low of my 20 yard pin.  If the target is even 5 yards out and down at a steep angle, my 20 yard pin is fine. 

To answer your last question, it had to be a misjudge.  Uphill and downhill angled shots normally require you to cut yardage off the actual measured distance.


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## DMCox (Jul 7, 2015)

Kris87 said:


> You must be utilizing a proper T formation shooting from your stand.  That's the key to hitting where you're aiming.  You should always try and bend at the waist and keep the upper T formation the same as you would on level ground.  If you just drop your front bow arm to aim low, then yes, you'll miss high most of the time.
> 
> I do think some of where you hit at very close range, say right under your stand, has some to do with your setup too.  Peep height for one has an effect on it.  I do encourage everyone to practice straight down shots if you plan on taking one to see where your arrows hit.  If I shoot straight down, my arrow hits just low of my 20 yard pin.  If the target is even 5 yards out and down at a steep angle, my 20 yard pin is fine.
> 
> To answer your last question, it had to be a misjudge.  Uphill and downhill angled shots normally require you to cut yardage off the actual measured distance.




Awesome! I definitely use the T formation and the deer was only about 5-10 yards from my stand when I shot from 25'. As far as the second scenario I wouldn't doubt that I misjudged, I never stepped off the shot after missing but I had to ask as it just stuck in my head as a thought. Thanks so much!


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## 660griz (Jul 7, 2015)

DMCox said:


> I have a question on shooting from an elevated position vs shooting on level ground. I've heard that this will change POI to some degree. The only chance I get to practice from an elevated position is my porch which is only about 10' up, I shot a doe last year from about 25' up and aimed just as I would on level ground and hit right where I aimed. Is there any truth to the statement, did I somehow get lucky and hit where I aimed from 25' up? Also I had a shot on a deer another time while coming out of the woods up a hill, I aimed normally there as well, but my arrow went low. Now this one could have been a misjudged range, but would the deer being higher than me have changed how I should have been aiming? Thanks for the help!



Maybe. Just depends. Usually pretty close until the angles and heights become extreme. 
An extreme example is that you are 50 yards up in a tree. 
A deer is 20 yards from the base of the tree. 
You would use your 20 yard pin. 
However, if you are 10 yards up in a tree and a deer is 20 yards from the base of a tree, you would still use your 20 pin. Range finders without angle compensation would range these at 53 and 22 yards respectively. Basically the hypotenuse of the right triangle which is not the accurate distance.


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## tbrown913 (Jul 7, 2015)

What is FOC?

What I know is that Alligood279 set up my arrows, and had to order the Easton FMJ's for me.  we did the chrono for it, and he figured out my KE.  Dont remember the exact number, but he said it should blow through an elk at 30 yards.  I shot a doe at about 20 yards that was quartered away from me.  On the shot, I flinched, and pushed the shot.  The arrow hit the back left ham, right about where the brown hair meets the white hair of the rear end.  The exit wound was out of the front right shoulder.  The arrow still stuck in the ground.  I dont think i will ever change!


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## The Arrow Guru (Jul 8, 2015)

As far as an anchor point is concerned the very first thing that has to be correct is draw length. I would bet that 80% of bowhunters are using a draw length that is too long. Once the correct draw length is set up I generally recommend a 3 point anchor. 1. Is the hand anchored in the same place on your jaw line. Never wrap you thumb around your neck or any of that stuff. Generally if you can do that your draw is way too long anyway. 2. The tip of your nose touching the string. Not off of it, not beside it, but the tip touching the string. 3. The peep aligned directly in front of your eye while the other to anchors are consistent. It is also a good idea to set your peep according the the median yardage that you will normally be shooting with that bow. For example, my hunting bow is generally set for close yardage, 40 yards and in. So setting the peep while aiming at 20 would be the median yardage. My 3-D bow is a little different, I will set it up at 30. If I were preparing to shoot out in redding I would set the peep at 40 or 50. If you set the peep while aiming at a wall at 10 yards and then go out and shoot at 40 you will have some struggles. Often you will find you lock under the target and bounce. If you do this move your peep down just a hair, should take care of it.


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## The Arrow Guru (Jul 8, 2015)

Remember that when shooting from an elevated position, especially from 20 yards and closer you will normally hit a little higher than the point of aim. A lot of deer are missed up close by shooting over the top of them.

I always aim at the spot I want the arrow to exit on the opposite side of the deer. Often burying the pin very low or even just under the chest hair. Aiming "through" the animal.


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## DMCox (Jul 8, 2015)

BIGRNYRS said:


> Remember that when shooting from an elevated position, especially from 20 yards and closer you will normally hit a little higher than the point of aim. A lot of deer are missed up close by shooting over the top of them.
> 
> I always aim at the spot I want the arrow to exit on the opposite side of the deer. Often burying the pin very low or even just under the chest hair. Aiming "through" the animal.



This is spot on. I've been teaching one of my friends how to shoot and he recently asked me where he should aim on a deer. I told him to try to visualize the arrow passing through the deer and exiting once passing through vitals. I definitely think a lot of deer have been wounded by just aiming center behind shoulder from 20 feet up and the arrow going below vitals. Great point!


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## 660griz (Jul 8, 2015)

You would use your 10 yard pin. Or, you will shoot over. 






Here, you would use your 7 feet pin or you would shoot over.


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## The Arrow Guru (Jul 8, 2015)

I don't have a 7 foot pin................ :/


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## 660griz (Jul 8, 2015)

BIGRNYRS said:


> I don't have a 7 foot pin................ :/



I don't have a 10 yard pin either. Thus the smileys.


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## Kris87 (Jul 8, 2015)

I have a 5 foot pin, its my 50 yard pin.


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## rjcruiser (Jul 8, 2015)

tbrown913 said:


> What is FOC?



Front of Center.  Or, in redneck terms heavier at the tip.


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## tbrown913 (Jul 15, 2015)

gotcha.  yall gettin technical on this stuff.  if it blows through them and kills them, keep it.

if it aint broke, dont fix it


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## Kris87 (Jul 15, 2015)

tbrown913 said:


> gotcha.  yall gettin technical on this stuff.  if it blows through them and kills them, keep it.
> 
> if it aint broke, dont fix it



You got me.  How'd you do it?


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## GA native (Jul 17, 2015)

Question:

I read in another thread that my Archery Traditions Bamboo #60 Longhunter is designed for a flemish string. At the present, I have a regular Dacron string on it.

How does the string affect my arrow's flight? What would change if I put a flemish string on the bow?


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## Kris87 (Jul 17, 2015)

GA native said:


> Question:
> 
> I read in another thread that my Archery Traditions Bamboo #60 Longhunter is designed for a flemish string. At the present, I have a regular Dacron string on it.
> 
> How does the string affect my arrow's flight? What would change if I put a flemish string on the bow?



That bow was designed to be able to shoot a flemish fast flight string.  I'm sure someone still makes them.  It would definitely pick up some speed.  

I loved Dan's bows.  I shot the longhunter a lot when I worked there.


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## Skunkhound (Jul 17, 2015)

You might pick up a few FPS with fast flight, but if your tips aren't reinforced for it, there is some risk. I've heard of guys putting FF on vintage bows with no problems at all, because the loops were padded. I don't worry about FPS with my bows since it really doesn't take much to get a pass through on a white tail at close range, assuming you've got good shot placement, and a shaving sharp broad head. IMO Dacron(B55), gives a smoother draw, and tends to be quiter. That being said, I still use FF on my bows that can handle it. I know I just contradicted myself. It doesn't make sense to me either.


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## Kris87 (Jul 17, 2015)

That bow was designed for a  FF Flemish string.  Tips can handle it fine.


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## The Arrow Guru (Jul 18, 2015)

FF Flemish string have a natural elastic quality that gives on the shot. If you build a traditional string out of modern threads it does not have this give and can damage the bow


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## mickyu (Jul 27, 2015)

*Shot Placement*

I ran into a little problem last year shooting lighter arrows (Easton Bowfire 8.1 GPI and lighter BH's WASP SST Hammer 85 gr) therefore if shot placement was not perfect, penetration was minimal, resulting in lost deer. According to this pic the arrow on the right is a dead center heart shot, mind you 32 yds perfect broadside shot, but where that front leg comes up, is that shoulder blade blocking that area? Is that shot on the left a better shot, even if it doesn't catch any heart, maybe 1" to the left? Would love to hear any and all thoughts on this. Thank you guys, I rely on y'alls knowledge quite bit.


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## stumpman35 (Jul 27, 2015)

*Arrow Spine Weight*

First time poster, long time reader!  I shoot a Diamond Outlaw at 65 lbs.  I've been shooting Gold Tip Expedition Hunters and was looking at getting some new ones.  I believe that I'm shooting 400 spine weight.  Would it be okay to buy some 340 spine weight in case I want to bump the poundage up on my bow in the future?  The 340's are stiffer I believe.  Thanks.


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## Kris87 (Jul 27, 2015)

Micky, I'd take either of those shots.  Both would be kill shots easily.  That placement on the right, is all muscle.  Its not as easy to shoot through as ribs and lungs, but still doable with the right setup.  If you hit the leg bone there, you'd probably still be ok.  That's the spot often hit where guys say "I shot right through both shoulders".  And while doable, thats not the shoulder blade, or Scapula.  That big bone is up much higher, and is not going to be good no matter what you hit it with.  Been there, done that, even with heavy arrows.  Find a good picture of bone anatomy, and you'll see the front leg bone follows close to the front of the deer, then turns back into the scapula.  Stay away from it, and always consider the angle the deer is too.


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## Kris87 (Jul 27, 2015)

stumpman35 said:


> First time poster, long time reader!  I shoot a Diamond Outlaw at 65 lbs.  I've been shooting Gold Tip Expedition Hunters and was looking at getting some new ones.  I believe that I'm shooting 400 spine weight.  Would it be okay to buy some 340 spine weight in case I want to bump the poundage up on my bow in the future?  The 340's are stiffer I believe.  Thanks.



I'm not 100% familiar with the speed your bow shoots, but you'd just want to make sure the 340's wouldn't be too stiff.  Typically, a 340 will tune great with most anything between 65-70#, so you should be good to go.  

If they are too stiff, and you need a 400 spine, there are some good options that have heavy grains per inch ratings, that would still finish out a heavy shaft.  An Easton FMJ would be a good choice.  But to answer, I'd try the 340's as they're probably the better spine choice anyway.  I don't personally believe you can be too stiff.


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## BlackEagle (Jul 27, 2015)

mickyu said:


> I ran into a little problem last year shooting lighter arrows (Easton Bowfire 8.1 GPI and lighter BH's WASP SST Hammer 85 gr) therefore if shot placement was not perfect, penetration was minimal, resulting in lost deer. According to this pic the arrow on the right is a dead center heart shot, mind you 32 yds perfect broadside shot, but where that front leg comes up, is that shoulder blade blocking that area? Is that shot on the left a better shot, even if it doesn't catch any heart, maybe 1" to the left? Would love to hear any and all thoughts on this. Thank you guys, I rely on y'alls knowledge quite bit.


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## stumpman35 (Jul 27, 2015)

Thanks for the info!  The Outlaw IBO's at 330, but I don't know the real world speed.


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## mickyu (Jul 28, 2015)

Thanks Kris and BlackEagle! Great info men, as usual.


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## GA native (Jul 28, 2015)

So last February, my Dad cleaned out his closet. He gave me an old, old, old Pearson recurve #45, a 30 year old Archery Traditions #60 longhunter, and a handful of Easton arrows, 2117.

Last night, I was at three rivers looking at their sizing charts. These arrows are just falling apart now that they are in use... According to the chart, my recurve shoots a 2016, my longbow shoots a 2016. 

https://www.3riversarchery.com/pdf/ArrowCharts.pdf

What do I buy? Stick with the 2117, or try the 2016? I figured on the 125 grain head.

I do plan to hunt rabbits, and maybe hogs, this year with the recurve bow. 

Thank you in advance.


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## spydermon (Jul 28, 2015)

Your recur will depend a lot on you..your draw length.  You can play with point weight on the 2117 and may can spine them into tolerance by adding point weight.

Setting up a trad how usually requires a lot of point weight to weaken a shaft.  Arrow length will play a role too.  
I'm guessin it will be hard to determine that for a starter.  You could bare shaft it and see.  Research the symptoms of reading a bare shaft in trading equipment to see what it tell you.  
You may be better off to buy some really cheap carbons in the 500 spine range and leave them full length and I'd guess a 200 gr point or so..that will likely put you in the ball park.  I'd bet the same arrows would work out of both.  That recurve will be a lot more forgiving and shoot better too I'm guessing


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## Kris87 (Jul 28, 2015)

That's good traditional advice.  You really need to shoot some arrows in a shop, but that can be a challenge when trying to find aluminum arrows these days.  

You may want to post this in the traditional section as well.


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## Wjackson11x (Jul 28, 2015)

Just recently started shooting a thumb release for my hunting set up.  I notice that my d-loop has quite a bit of torque in it at full draw when i rotate my hand down.  Can this cause any issues while shooting broadheads?  would a catfish loop be worth it?  If so, what are the benefits?

Thanks for Helping us not so informed

hoyt Aplhamax
65 lbs
486 gr fmj
Hot shot tempest release


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## GA native (Jul 28, 2015)

spydermon said:


> Your recur will depend a lot on you..your draw length.  You can play with point weight on the 2117 and may can spine them into tolerance by adding point weight.
> 
> Setting up a trad how usually requires a lot of point weight to weaken a shaft.  Arrow length will play a role too.
> I'm guessin it will be hard to determine that for a starter.  You could bare shaft it and see.  Research the symptoms of reading a bare shaft in trading equipment to see what it tell you.
> You may be better off to buy some really cheap carbons in the 500 spine range and leave them full length and I'd guess a 200 gr point or so..that will likely put you in the ball park.  I'd bet the same arrows would work out of both.  That recurve will be a lot more forgiving and shoot better too I'm guessing



It sounds like this is something I can't do on the interwebz. Almost as if I need to go to an archery shop with my bows, and get fitted with arrows.

Shoot, I'm almost dangerous with these 2117s... except that they are just flat wore out. And now is the time to either refletch, or replace. Who's that guy endorsed by GON? Up in Woodstock?


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## Kris87 (Jul 28, 2015)

Wjackson11x said:


> Just recently started shooting a thumb release for my hunting set up.  I notice that my d-loop has quite a bit of torque in it at full draw when i rotate my hand down.  Can this cause any issues while shooting broadheads?  would a catfish loop be worth it?  If so, what are the benefits?
> 
> Thanks for Helping us not so informed
> 
> ...



How long is your d-loop?  Shooting a hand held, you'll benefit from it being a little longer.  It typically will put your anchor in a more comfortable position too.  I don't know how much you rotate your hand at full draw, but I know some guys like to lay their hand flat against their face, and I don't think that's the proper form. It for sure torques the loop.  

Look up Jesse Broadwater, and look at the angle he holds his release.  I think Jesse's form is the best in the world, and his hand position is absolutely perfect.


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## slbdawg (Jul 29, 2015)

This is the best thread I have read in a long time. Thanks!


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## tc2015 (Jul 29, 2015)

This is some great conversation


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## j53 (Jul 30, 2015)

Wjackson11x said:


> Just recently started shooting a thumb release for my hunting set up.  I notice that my d-loop has quite a bit of torque in it at full draw when i rotate my hand down.  Can this cause any issues while shooting broadheads?  would a catfish loop be worth it?  If so, what are the benefits?
> 
> Thanks for Helping us not so informed
> 
> ...



not familiar with what loop material you are using, but the winners choice or stiff loop material will cause problems with torque( especially with broadsheads), even seen them make field points kick when shot with t-handles with folks who rotate their wrist too far... use the bcy or softer material at least.. If its long enough, you probably wont have much problem..


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## stumpman35 (Jul 30, 2015)

*Flexing Carbon Arrows*

Is it obvious there is something wrong with an arrow when you flex it?  I have 4 arrows I practice with, 3 will be in a 2 inch group and the 4th will be a couple inches left or low everytime.  I've flexed it and don't see or hear anything.  I can't figure out why the 1 arrow isn't right.  Any suggestions as to what the problem might be?  These arrows are all the same.


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## Kris87 (Jul 30, 2015)

stumpman35 said:


> Is it obvious there is something wrong with an arrow when you flex it?  I have 4 arrows I practice with, 3 will be in a 2 inch group and the 4th will be a couple inches left or low everytime.  I've flexed it and don't see or hear anything.  I can't figure out why the 1 arrow isn't right.  Any suggestions as to what the problem might be?  These arrows are all the same.



Normally flexing the arrow will reveal cracks, or damage to a shaft.  If you have one that is consistently out of group, then try changing the nock.  Spin test it to see if the head is true(although with a fp, this normally doesn't matter).  The nock end of the shaft might not be squared either.  Check those things.


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## livetohunt (Aug 1, 2015)

Wjackson11x said:


> Just recently started shooting a thumb release for my hunting set up.  I notice that my d-loop has quite a bit of torque in it at full draw when i rotate my hand down.  Can this cause any issues while shooting broadheads?  would a catfish loop be worth it?  If so, what are the benefits?



You could also buy a thumb release that has a rotating head and prevents torque on the D-loop. I shot a Carter chocolate addiction thumb release for years and it did not rotate. I never had problems with accuracy because the torque on the d-loop is the same for every shot. If you alternate releases you will see a difference on point of impact, but using the same one you should be fine.


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## Nathanj519 (Aug 5, 2015)

Nathanj519 said:


> After reading Tim knights article, this thread, and Dr. Ashbys work, I'm definitely on board with upping my arrow weight and increasing my FOC. Should I stay in the 400-500 grain range or go even heavier? I shoot a 65lb obsession knightmare (I'm looking for some 70lb limbs) with 29.5 inch draw and only hunt whitetail. And what do u think of the GrizzlyStic 650 grain whitetail package? Is it overkill for ga deer?




Wanted to give an update to all the guys that helped me earlier in this post. I ended up getting the gold tip velocity pro 300 arrows. I added 50 grain weights to the back of my insert and i'm shooting 125 grain heads. Total arrow weight ended up being 476.6 with an FOC of 15.5. I ran it through the chrono  and it's consistently hitting 290 (I ended up getting 70lb limbs and I have a 29.5" draw). My bow is quieter and my arrows a hitting the target with a lot more thump (especially compared to the 372 grain arrows I was shooting last year). Arrow flight is great and I haven't had a problem with any fixed head I've tried so far. Just wanted to say thanks again for all the advice. Can't wait to try these out on some deer this fall.


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## Kris87 (Aug 5, 2015)

I'll bet those are some nasty whitetail killers Nathan.  That's the exact shaft and spine I've setup for this year.  I used just a little less insert weight to keep my speed at upper 290's, as my draw is an inch shorter than yours.  Those GT Velocity's are a great shaft since they allow you to really customize how you want to build the shaft.  Good luck.


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## Ihunt (Aug 5, 2015)

Nathanj519 said:


> Wanted to give an update to all the guys that helped me earlier in this post. I ended up getting the gold tip velocity pro 300 arrows. I added 50 grain weights to the back of my insert and i'm shooting 125 grain heads. Total arrow weight ended up being 476.6 with an FOC of 15.5. I ran it through the chrono  and it's consistently hitting 290 (I ended up getting 70lb limbs and I have a 29.5" draw). My bow is quieter and my arrows a hitting the target with a lot more thump (especially compared to the 372 grain arrows I was shooting last year). Arrow flight is great and I haven't had a problem with any fixed head I've tried so far. Just wanted to say thanks again for all the advice. Can't wait to try these out on some deer this fall.



I do forsee a problem though. 

Your pass through's will be so quick and hit so hard that you may lose arrows that are buried in trees or damaged by rocks on the other side of the deer. Other than that, I think everything will be fine.


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## Ihunt (Aug 5, 2015)

How much quieter did your bow get? I added some 50 grain inserts on my arrows which bumped my weight up to 425 grains. That extra 50 grains made the bow much quieter. I am pulling about 58 lbs.


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## Nathanj519 (Aug 6, 2015)

Ihunt said:


> I do forsee a problem though.
> 
> Your pass through's will be so quick and hit so hard that you may lose arrows that are buried in trees or damaged by rocks on the other side of the deer. Other than that, I think everything will be fine.



I think I can live with that lol.



Ihunt said:


> How much quieter did your bow get? I added some 50 grain inserts on my arrows which bumped my weight up to 425 grains. That extra 50 grains made the bow much quieter. I am pulling about 58 lbs.



Its definitely quieter, I don't know how much but it is a noticeable difference. But the biggest difference I've noticed is the sound it makes hitting the target. It has a lot more thump to it.


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## DYI hunting (Aug 6, 2015)

I'm hunting with an old round wheel PSE Polaris Express. I have no idea but I would guess I'm making around 200 FPS? With a slow bow, what range should I limit my shots to so I reduce the chance of a deer jumping the string enough to miss or make a bad hit?


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## The Arrow Guru (Aug 6, 2015)

DYI hunting said:


> I'm hunting with an old round wheel PSE Polaris Express. I have no idea but I would guess I'm making around 200 FPS? With a slow bow, what range should I limit my shots to so I reduce the chance of a deer jumping the string enough to miss or make a bad hit?



Woa, this is a little different. I would say that you should probably keep it 30 yards and in. However there are other things to consider. How loud is your bow? Is there dampening accessories that you could put on it to make it quiet? The simple fact that it is a little slower than more modern equipment doesn't mean it would not be effective at a little longer range. I have seen shots at 40 and 50 yards from a trad set up that was an effective killing shot. 

You might want to make sure you have plenty of arrow weight and use a good cut on contact broad head.


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## BlackEagle (Aug 15, 2015)

Bump


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## edsebring (Aug 19, 2015)

Here is a question that I would love an answer to. In the past I have experimented with different cover scents. Wildlife research, Dead down wind, Scent Killer, and a few other off the wall things. I have always seen more deer in range while using the wildlife research scent killer. Not sure if it is just a fluke, but would love to know what the best scent killer that is out there and what everyone else is using with great results.
Thanks in advance.
Eric


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## DYI hunting (Aug 19, 2015)

How do you deal with poorer eyesight? I can see my pins well enough to make several shots then then my eyes start getting tired.  After a dozen shots my pins are blurry enough that my groups open up.


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## edsebring (Aug 19, 2015)

DYI hunting said:


> How do you deal with poorer eyesight? I can see my pins well enough to make several shots then then my eyes start getting tired.  After a dozen shots my pins are blurry enough that my groups open up.



I have a similar issue. As I have gotten older my near vision is slowly getting worse. My far distance I have no issues with, so seeing the target is easy for me. Seeing the pins can be tricky at times, and I have to refocus my eyes to see the pins then refocus to see the target. I thought changing to smaller pins would help, but it did not. I saw a post on here on Monday for someone asking about the Apex Covert green dot sight. After looking at it and doing some research on it, I ordered one yesterday with a 2x lens on the front of it. It has a set of regular cross hairs on it, or you can turn the green dot on if you want it. I think this would help me as i dont have to stare at a pin, just center the cross hairs on my target and let it fly. The only thing I dont like about this sight is that you have to dial in the yardage before every shot. I cant wait to get it and try it out. Hope this helps.
Eric


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## Kris87 (Aug 19, 2015)

I wear glasses when I shoot just to clear up my long range vision in my dominant eye.  My dominant eye is a little weaker than the the other, so the glasses help. I don't wear them any other time than when I'm hunting or shooting.

As far as seeing the pins, I don't have much to offer there, as my pins are blurry because I focus on the target.  Its physically impossible to focus on your target and your pins at the same time.  You should be focusing on the target, while watching the pin float around where you're aiming.  If you're trying to go back and forth and focus on each, that could be part of the problem.  I don't know if you guys are shooting with both eyes open, but that would definitely help, as your non dominant eye really allows you to focus on the target much better than just trying to use one eye for looking at the target and the pins at the same time.

Bottom line, its better to shoot with two eyes.


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## edsebring (Aug 19, 2015)

Kris87, I have tried this, but my problem is that my dominate eye is my left eye and i shoot right handed. ( I know, I am messed up, should be left handed but was forced as a kid to do everything right handed) I can shoot with both hands but because I grew up in a right handed world, It was just easier to learn to do it right handed. When I open both eyes to shoot my right eye doesn't focus on anything so I have to close my left eye.


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## DYI hunting (Aug 19, 2015)

Thanks edsebring and Kris87. That sight is nice but out of my budget. I am focusing on the target but the pins all blur together after my eyes get tired which is usually about a dozen shots. I think I'll try my reading glasses for target practice even though they might make the target a little fuzzy. I should be fine for hunting but I think one of those sight pin lights would help too.

Now if I could just figure out what broadhead to try. I'm shooting a BlackOut Intrigue bow at 70 lb, 29" draw with 355 grain 400 spine arrows (assuming 100 grain broadhead) close to 290 FPS. I broke the bank buying this bow and a dozen arrows so I would like to stay with the arrows I have. Can I slap on a 125 or 150 grain broadhead  to increase the arrow weight or would I need a higher spine arrow for that?


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## Ole3Toe (Aug 19, 2015)

I was wondering same thing about pin being blurry. Seems to get worse when i practice right at dark.


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## Ole3Toe (Aug 19, 2015)

Maybe someone can enlighten me! Due to erratic tail flight ( i can see my arrows wobbling) i have been messing around with my anchor point. I moved AP up higher on my face, and now i am shooting bullets. I have re sighted my bow but seem to be getting impacts to the left alot more. Any thoughts on this?


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## Kris87 (Aug 19, 2015)

@DYI hunting, you don't want to go to a heavier point, as you're probably already weak on spine.


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## Pneumothorax (Aug 19, 2015)

DYI hunting said:


> How do you deal with poorer eyesight? I can see my pins well enough to make several shots then then my eyes start getting tired.  After a dozen shots my pins are blurry enough that my groups open up.



Here's an option that helped me:

http://www.specialtyarch.com/faq-new/verifiers/

It's a small lens that fits inside the peep sight.  I hate peep sights and have always hunted without one.  That is, until I started to need reading glasses.  Then my pins became blurry.  I decided to give the verifier lens a try and it helped tremendously.  It makes the pins look clear but doesn't blur out the target in the distance.  So as much as I hate peep sights for hunting, I use one now.


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## edsebring (Aug 20, 2015)

I asked this earlier and I think it got skipped over. What is the best spray for cover scent. I have tried Dead down wind, Wildlife research, and Scent killer. I personally have had more deer in shooting range while using  the Wildlife Research spray, but not sure if that is just chance. Any suggestion?


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## j53 (Aug 20, 2015)

*blurry pin*



edsebring said:


> I have a similar issue. As I have gotten older my near vision is slowly getting worse. My far distance I have no issues with, so seeing the target is easy for me. Seeing the pins can be tricky at times, and I have to refocus my eyes to see the pins then refocus to see the target. I thought changing to smaller pins would help, but it did not. I saw a post on here on Monday for someone asking about the Apex Covert green dot sight. After looking at it and doing some research on it, I ordered one yesterday with a 2x lens on the front of it. It has a set of regular cross hairs on it, or you can turn the green dot on if you want it. I think this would help me as i dont have to stare at a pin, just center the cross hairs on my target and let it fly. The only thing I dont like about this sight is that you have to dial in the yardage before every shot. I cant wait to get it and try it out. Hope this helps.
> Eric



I dont know if anyone suggested it yet but they do have clarifier and varifier hooded peeps with a lens... I think its the clarifier you would need... I had customer the other day we ordered one for. It cleared the problem right up (can see long distances fine but pin is blurry) they come in different strengths... One you use with a lens on the sight (varifier) and one you use without a lens on the sight itself (clarifier).. Many customers shoot these now and swear by them


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## Whit90 (Aug 20, 2015)

edsebring said:


> Here is a question that I would love an answer to. In the past I have experimented with different cover scents. Wildlife research, Dead down wind, Scent Killer, and a few other off the wall things. I have always seen more deer in range while using the wildlife research scent killer. Not sure if it is just a fluke, but would love to know what the best scent killer that is out there and what everyone else is using with great results.
> Thanks in advance.
> Eric




I like to break off a pine tree branch and ruff up the pine needles in my hand, then rub it all over my clothes. Its not a sent eliminator, but it is most definitely a natural cover sent, and has a strong smell as well. I believe it covers my sent. AND its free!


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## Kris87 (Aug 20, 2015)

edsebring said:


> I asked this earlier and I think it got skipped over. What is the best spray for cover scent. I have tried Dead down wind, Wildlife research, and Scent killer. I personally have had more deer in shooting range while using  the Wildlife Research spray, but not sure if that is just chance. Any suggestion?



I don't have anything to add for you.  I don't really place much stock in spraying down before I hunt anymore.  I typically only use it to spray my stuff down and let it air out on the porch.  No scent spray is going to save you if a deer is downwind of you.  I know they can lessen your scent, but its not going to eliminate it.  I just shower before every hunt, keep my clothes as clean as possible, and do my best to have a favorable wind.  The wind changes too often in GA to always say you're only gonna hunt ONE wind.  That is rare.


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## Kris87 (Aug 20, 2015)

some of the tests done recently with german shepherd police dogs really opened my eyes to scent control, whether it was with rubber boots, scent eliminators, or cover scents.  the dogs found their target very quickly.  some were delayed, but the dog still found the person.  Just not going to trick a deer's nose, IMO.


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## Ihunt (Aug 20, 2015)

edsebring said:


> I asked this earlier and I think it got skipped over. What is the best spray for cover scent. I have tried Dead down wind, Wildlife research, and Scent killer. I personally have had more deer in shooting range while using  the Wildlife Research spray, but not sure if that is just chance. Any suggestion?



I don't think there is a best. You can do it all and have multiple Ozonics running and they can still smell you. I am sure the sprays help but all I use them for is spraying down my boots and pants legs trying to minimize my ground scent. I did not say eleminate. Just don't think you can.


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## edsebring (Aug 20, 2015)

Thanks guys. I do wash everything down and shower regularly. Was just wondering if someone had found something better for covering their scent. I also keep my hunting clothes in a sealed bin with a fresh pine branch in it. I never thought of taking pine needles and rubbing them over my hands and clothes as I enter the woods, but will try that this year. 3 weeks seems like a life time right now. cant wait to get back out in the woods in a stand. Good luck to all of you, and may the Ga. wind be always in your favor.


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## Ihunt (Aug 20, 2015)

edsebring said:


> Thanks guys. I do wash everything down and shower regularly. Was just wondering if someone had found something better for covering their scent. I also keep my hunting clothes in a sealed bin with a fresh pine branch in it. I never thought of taking pine needles and rubbing them over my hands and clothes as I enter the woods, but will try that this year. 3 weeks seems like a life time right now. cant wait to get back out in the woods in a stand. Good luck to all of you, and may the Ga. wind be always in your favor.



 And I would keep doing all of this. While I dont think you can ever eleminate your scent I do feel as though you can reduce it.In the right situation, a reduction could help you but the saying forget the wind just hunt is hogwash.


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## edsebring (Aug 21, 2015)

Ihunt said:


> And I would keep doing all of this. While I dont think you can ever eleminate your scent I do feel as though you can reduce it.In the right situation, a reduction could help you but the saying forget the wind just hunt is hogwash.



I do know that wind plays a big part in the hunt. In a few of my spots I have hung two different stands in the same area so if I go in and the wind is blowing the wrong way, I can use the other stand instead. I also have a summit climber that I use a lot. Makes it nice when fighting a changing wind.


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## tbrown913 (Aug 22, 2015)

Kris87 said:


> You got me.  How'd you do it?



PSE X Force HF set at 64 pounds with Easton FMJ arrows and 100 gr rage head.  

Shot through one doe that i flinched on the shot, and she quartered more than I thought.  Arrow went in the back left ham, and exited out the front right shoulder at 18 to 20 yards.  

Had another one that I shot her broadside, but she had her head down eating at the shot.  When I shot, she picked her head up.  The entrance was on the left side, exit on the right.  Then I got a second entrance where the arrow struck her at the base of the skull under the ear while the back of the arrow was still in her chest.  She flopped 4 yards and died.


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## DYI hunting (Aug 23, 2015)

Did I waste my money changing arrows? I went from 366 grain to 442 grain arrows but KE stayed almost exactly the same. Speed dropped from 282 FPS down to 257 FPS.


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## alligood729 (Aug 23, 2015)

tbrown913 said:


> What is FOC?
> 
> What I know is that Alligood279 set up my arrows, and had to order the Easton FMJ's for me.  we did the chrono for it, and he figured out my KE.  Dont remember the exact number, but he said it should blow through an elk at 30 yards.  I shot a doe at about 20 yards that was quartered away from me.  On the shot, I flinched, and pushed the shot.  The arrow hit the back left ham, right about where the brown hair meets the white hair of the rear end.  The exit wound was out of the front right shoulder.  The arrow still stuck in the ground.  I dont think i will ever change!



Man, I don't even remember that, but I'm certainly glad it works so well. I've definitely become a "heavier arrow is better" guy since a season ago. Good luck this season!


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## The Arrow Guru (Aug 23, 2015)

DYI hunting said:


> Did I waste my money changing arrows? I went from 366 grain to 442 grain arrows but KE stayed almost exactly the same. Speed dropped from 282 FPS down to 257 FPS.



I have posted this several times. You absolutely did not waste you money. Kinetic energy is a poor way to evaluate and arrows potential for penetration and lethality. At best it can tell you about the efficiency of your bow. Both arrows have the same kinetic energy because it is absorbing the energy from the same bow which produces the same every time. The difference will be in the momentum which has more to do with the mass of your arrow. More mass will not lose energy as quickly and the heavier arrow might actually be traveling faster down range than the lighter one which loses energy quickly. The higher mass gives you much more potential for penetration and lethality.

I wish bow companies had never started using kinetic energy as a marketing point. Like speed, it is not as important as it is made to be.

If you had a way to test it, you would find the the arrow drop out to effective whitetail ranges would be very minimal.


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## The Arrow Guru (Aug 23, 2015)

stumpman35 said:


> Is it obvious there is something wrong with an arrow when you flex it?  I have 4 arrows I practice with, 3 will be in a 2 inch group and the 4th will be a couple inches left or low everytime.  I've flexed it and don't see or hear anything.  I can't figure out why the 1 arrow isn't right.  Any suggestions as to what the problem might be?  These arrows are all the same.



Just to add to what Kris said, you can also turn the nock and got to the next vane as your cock vane. Often this will bring a stray arrow into the group


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## alligood729 (Aug 23, 2015)

DYI hunting said:


> Did I waste my money changing arrows? I went from 366 grain to 442 grain arrows but KE stayed almost exactly the same. Speed dropped from 282 FPS down to 257 FPS.


I would say not. My speed loss was close to that, went from a 340gr to 440gr arrow. I was shooting faster than your original speed, but still ended up at 285fps. My KE figure was almost the same, to the number. But remember, KE starts diminishing the moment the arrow leaves the bow. It's how much pop you got when the arrow gets to where it's going that counts. It's been said a whole lot lately, but the heavier arrow will carry it's momentum further than a lighter arrow, and that really matters to me more so than a KE number. I know that the 2nd hog I shot a few weeks ago with Tim Knight, was a 150lb boar, shot was behind the shoulder, heart high, quarter away, hit the offside leg bone, no pass through, but that hog literally took 2 steps and dropped. I posted a picture of the damage to the shoulder, the entry hole and the hole on the inside of the same shoulder, after the head opened up. Heavy arrow, 165gr bipolar head, and it did some major damage. I'll never shoot an arrow under 400grs to hunt with again.


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## Ihunt (Aug 24, 2015)

Put a field tip on two different arrows. A heavy one and a light one. Drop them from a few feet into the palm of your hand. See which one hurts more.

This is the dumb redneck test to understand momentum.


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## edsebring (Aug 24, 2015)

with heavier weights you are going to loose a bit of speed. Here is a good analogy. If a BB is traveling 50 feet per second and it hits you it is going to sting. If a bowling ball is traveling 25 feet per second and hits you, when you wake up your going still be in pain. The same works for arrows up to a certain point. You can get too heavy, but most bows today can easily push a 600 grain arrow without loosing to much speed or trajectory versus a 350 grain arrow. The best thing is to find an arrow that gives you the best speed with the most kinetic energy at impact. This is going to depend on your bow weight, draw length, and speed. I figured mine to be at 465 grains. I shoot a PSE X-Force,29 " draw set at 76 pounds. PSE says that the IBO is 357 (maybe on a good day down hill) so using all of this, I was able to figure out that at 465 grains I still should be shooting at 319fps at 104KE. this may all be a bunch of bull, but I do know that 2 years ago I was using a Carbon Express Pile Driver at 11.3 grains per inch to Carbon Express Blue streaks at 8.6 grains per inch. The heavier arrow did a lot more damage to hogs than the lighter arrow does. So in my opinion, go with the heaviest arrow that you can shoot that doesn't effect your arrow flight too much. Another thing the heavier arrow will tend to make your bow quieter when you shoot.


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