# Pieces



## Al33 (May 16, 2012)

Here are some of the pieces I found the day I found my best find ever, the Brier Creek Allendale. I suspect most of these were preforms that got broken but I will leave that up to you pro's to determine that.

Also thought one in particular was extra interesting because it appears the maker discarded it after he decided it wouldn't be worth the effort. It's the second one from the right (bottom row) in the collective pic and then again by itself.


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## Nicodemus (May 16, 2012)

That is some colorful stone. Are you findin` these in a field?


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## Willjo (May 16, 2012)

*pieces put together*

Al save all the pieces and you might put some together. Here is 6 that was put together. All these were broke when they were making them and they just got another piece of material and started over.


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## Al33 (May 16, 2012)

Nicodemus said:


> That is some colorful stone. Are you findin` these in a field?


In a clear-cut with a lot of ground disturbance.



Willjo said:


> Al save all the pieces and you might put some together. Here is 6 that was put together. All these were broke when they were making them and they just got another piece of material and started over.



Those are super nice!!!  I tried putting some of these together but no fits. 
Not likely I will ever get back to that place, it was by coincidental invitation only and a rare opportunity. I just appreciated the heck out of the one invitation and grateful for the land owners generosity. He certainly did not have to let me have any of the pieces we found and that would have been OK with me too, just tickled to be able to search.


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## Son (May 16, 2012)

I would certainly keep both eyes on that spot. Gotta be some nice points around there. I've been in on sites where halves were found, kept point halves in one box, backs in another. Amazing, couple years later, put several together.


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## NCHillbilly (May 16, 2012)

Willjo said:


> Al save all the pieces and you might put some together. Here is 6 that was put together. All these were broke when they were making them and they just got another piece of material and started over.



I have made thousands of replicas of that particular point style.


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## dpoole (May 16, 2012)

NCHillbilly said:


> I have made thousands of replicas of that particular point style.



 the broke type


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## Al33 (May 16, 2012)

Does anyone else wonder why they would discard the pieces like willjo shows? Seems to me some of them could still be made into points without a lot of work rather than just throwing away work already done. I know that's what I do when I break a long piece.


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## Nicodemus (May 16, 2012)

Al, look at the breaks and see if there is a patina on the surface of the breaks. If it doesn`t match the patina on the rest of the point, it was broken at a later date. Heavy equipment, tractors, plows, all take their toll on artifacts.


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## fish hawk (May 16, 2012)

Theres a chance of an ancient work station at the site.Some of those pieces look like first stage stuff.Do you find a bunch of flakes in the general area?And also do you find any pottery shards in this general area?You have some nice land to hunt,definitely Natives living in that area.


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## fish hawk (May 16, 2012)

Al33 said:


> Does anyone else wonder why they would discard the pieces like willjo shows? Seems to me some of them could still be made into points without a lot of work rather than just throwing away work already done. I know that's what I do when I break a long piece.


You do wonder why and I'm sure some where.......Im my case if I had been the knapper working on those blades willjo posted ,when it broke I'd probably slung it on the ground out of frustration  Those are some killer blades willjo,broke or not.That material is killer and the workmanship was top notch!!!!


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## Bow Only (May 16, 2012)

Looks like some kind of quarry site to me.  Good material.


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## NCHillbilly (May 17, 2012)

Al33 said:


> Does anyone else wonder why they would discard the pieces like willjo shows? Seems to me some of them could still be made into points without a lot of work rather than just throwing away work already done. I know that's what I do when I break a long piece.



IMO, I think the main part of it was the fact that knappers back then weren't like us-they were part of a rigidly traditional  culture and usually only made one style of point, no others. Some cultures made only one type of point with very little variation in size or shape for hundreds or thousands of years. Where we see a broken point as raw material for another point type, they saw it as now too small to make their particular point type, and therefore, discarded it or sometimes made it into a scraper or other tool.


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## longbowdave1 (May 17, 2012)

Nice finds Al. I like to read all the different theories and ideas about how the points were made and why they were found there. I've never been lucky enough to find one.


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## whossbows (May 17, 2012)

real nice al,but sad to that they were all broke


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## Al33 (May 18, 2012)

NCHillbilly said:


> IMO, I think the main part of it was the fact that knappers back then weren't like us-they were part of a rigidly traditional  culture and usually only made one style of point, no others. Some cultures made only one type of point with very little variation in size or shape for hundreds or thousands of years. Where we see a broken point as raw material for another point type, they saw it as now too small to make their particular point type, and therefore, discarded it or sometimes made it into a scraper or other tool.



Never thought of it that way, very interesting! Thanks!


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## Forest Grump (May 18, 2012)

NCHillbilly said:


> IMO, I think the main part of it was the fact that knappers back then weren't like us-they were part of a rigidly traditional  culture and usually only made one style of point, no others. Some cultures made only one type of point with very little variation in size or shape for hundreds or thousands of years. Where we see a broken point as raw material for another point type, they saw it as now too small to make their particular point type, and therefore, discarded it or sometimes made it into a scraper or other tool.



But clearly they were in so many ways exactly like us: you know they had to find "artifacts" (eg: points) that, at the time, were perhaps thousands of years old. There's no way they wouldn't pick one up, maybe they don't realize it's 1000 years old, but it's some style/design they never thought of; that would have to peak their interest. And with certainty, some of them had a sense of artistry, as they seemed to choose stone for points that had wonderful character & inclusions & such. That couldn't have been mere coincidence. You know they had to say (in whatever they spoke): Wow, this'll be the coolest looking knife! We find re-purposed points made into drills, or re-sharpened until they look like drills, I guess... Likely they had some degree of division of labor; maybe everybody _could_ chip a rock into a point, but some surely were better at it, as now, & if that one wasn't the best hunter, maybe he could trade weapons for meat or hides or whatever? The technology of knapping various styles seems to have spread through ancient peoples. I don't know if they had meetings or conventions like we do, but they clearly communicated & shared ideas to some degree.

You know if you were walking along, & saw a screwdriver laying on the ground, you'd pick it up. Even if all the ones you'd ever seen or used were regular, & this was a Phillips, you'd be curious. Now, maybe, in your traditional mind that all screwdrivers should look like regulars, you'd pound the tip flat so you could use it, but you still might be the one who said: hmmm...this is interesting, I wonder why it's like that...

And wouldn't they have had different styles for different tasks? A knife for cutting, a knife for skinning, an atlatl point, an arrowhead, & a spear would all look very different for us, based solely on utility; different shapes do different tasks better. Do you suppose they were so stuck in "this is how the rules say we do X" that they wouldn't always be trying to think of a new way, a better way, an easier way to conduct their daily lives? Artifacts from the Clovis/Solutrean/whoever they were people had to be easier to find 4 or 8000 years ago; do you reckon they never picked one up, & wondered how they got it so thin, or why it's fluted up the middle, & how in the world did they do that? Even if most of them were rigidly practical, or stuck in dogma, you know there had to be that one nerdy guy, or rebel in the group...

I get that, after the demise of the mega-fauna animal species, they don't need to spend the time to craft these wonders of sharpness to spear with, & being lazy, (like us), technology is lost & points become cruder, until bow & arrow tech makes it necessary to make points thinner & sharper again so they'll fly well & penetrate enough to do the job atlatl's have been doing. And maybe they didn't get as excited as I do when they saw a perfect point washed clean on the ground by a big storm, but I can't believe they never picked one up, or maybe even re-sharpened & used it. Could be, in the spot Willjo found those, that that guy was making whatever kind of knives etc... those were gonna be, & if they popped in 1/2, they got dropped or thrown into the scrap pile, he uttered the applicable indian expletive, & someday he might have made something different with them, but never got around to it. I bet I'd find a few unfinished pieces or something that could be made into something else if I poked around your debitage pile? 

Sorry for the novella; but I find I think about stuff like that when I find artifacts: what did they do with this, why is it shaped like that, what were they dealing with in their daily lives, 4 or 6 or 9000 years ago? (Sometimes I just thinks: Man! It's HOT!...or What is it with these gnats?!...stuff like that...depends on the day)


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## Nicodemus (May 18, 2012)

Forest Grump said:


> But clearly they were in so many ways exactly like us: you know they had to find "artifacts" (eg: points) that, at the time, were perhaps thousands of years old. There's no way they wouldn't pick one up, maybe they don't realize it's 1000 years old, but it's some style/design they never thought of; that would have to peak their interest. And with certainty, some of them had a sense of artistry, as they seemed to choose stone for points that had wonderful character & inclusions & such. That couldn't have been mere coincidence. You know they had to say (in whatever they spoke): Wow, this'll be the coolest looking knife! We find re-purposed points made into drills, or re-sharpened until they look like drills, I guess... Likely they had some degree of division of labor; maybe everybody _could_ chip a rock into a point, but some surely were better at it, as now, & if that one wasn't the best hunter, maybe he could trade weapons for meat or hides or whatever? The technology of knapping various styles seems to have spread through ancient peoples. I don't know if they had meetings or conventions like we do, but they clearly communicated & shared ideas to some degree.
> 
> You know if you were walking along, & saw a screwdriver laying on the ground, you'd pick it up. Even if all the ones you'd ever seen or used were regular, & this was a Phillips, you'd be curious. Now, maybe, in your traditional mind that all screwdrivers should look like regulars, you'd pound the tip flat so you could use it, but you still might be the one who said: hmmm...this is interesting, I wonder why it's like that...
> 
> ...





I saw a really nice Chattahoochee Dalton that was found in the Flint River, that some late Archaic or Woodland Indian had found and chipped distinct side notches into it.


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## NCHillbilly (May 18, 2012)

Forest Grump said:


> But clearly they were in so many ways exactly like us: you know they had to find "artifacts" (eg: points) that, at the time, were perhaps thousands of years old. There's no way they wouldn't pick one up, maybe they don't realize it's 1000 years old, but it's some style/design they never thought of; that would have to peak their interest. And with certainty, some of them had a sense of artistry, as they seemed to choose stone for points that had wonderful character & inclusions & such. That couldn't have been mere coincidence. You know they had to say (in whatever they spoke): Wow, this'll be the coolest looking knife! We find re-purposed points made into drills, or re-sharpened until they look like drills, I guess... Likely they had some degree of division of labor; maybe everybody _could_ chip a rock into a point, but some surely were better at it, as now, & if that one wasn't the best hunter, maybe he could trade weapons for meat or hides or whatever? The technology of knapping various styles seems to have spread through ancient peoples. I don't know if they had meetings or conventions like we do, but they clearly communicated & shared ideas to some degree.
> 
> You know if you were walking along, & saw a screwdriver laying on the ground, you'd pick it up. Even if all the ones you'd ever seen or used were regular, & this was a Phillips, you'd be curious. Now, maybe, in your traditional mind that all screwdrivers should look like regulars, you'd pound the tip flat so you could use it, but you still might be the one who said: hmmm...this is interesting, I wonder why it's like that...
> 
> ...



Like Nic, I've seen several examples of older points reworked into newer styles. But-the fact remains, Stanley people only made Stanley points. Clovis people only made Clovis points. Newnan people only made Newnan points. Sure, they made scrapers, flake tools, axes, blade cores, and such, but they simply didn't make diferent styles of projectile points in 99% of cases. Layers in the archeological record don't contain different point styles. That is one of the great mysteries to me-why the rigidity? For example, the Savannah River people here in my neck of the woods made the same type of point and no others for nearly 3,000 years. That's a long time, over 10x as long as the US has been a country. I don't know why, but change was slow, very slow. We can see the Kirk  Complex gradually evolve through several different types, but it took thousands of years to evolve, and you don't find Kirk corner-notched and Kirk Stemmed points in the same archeological layer. The Hardaway Complex gradually evolved from the Hardaway Blade to the Hardaway Dalton to the Hardaway Side-notched into the Palmer/Kirk types. None of them appear simultaneously in the record. Why? I don't know.


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## Nicodemus (May 18, 2012)

NCHillbilly said:


> Like Nic, I've seen several examples of older points reworked into newer styles. But-the fact remains, Stanley people only made Stanley points. Clovis people only made Clovis points. Newnan people only made Newnan points. Sure, they made scrapers, flake tools, axes, blade cores, and such, but they simply didn't make diferent styles of projectile points in 99% of cases. Layers in the archeological record don't contain different point styles. That is one of the great mysteries to me-why the rigidity? For example, the Savannah River people here in my neck of the woods made the same type of point and no others for nearly 3,000 years. That's a long time, over 10x as long as the US has been a country. I don't know why, but change was slow, very slow. We can see the Kirk  Complex gradually evolve through several different types, but it took thousands of years to evolve, and you don't find Kirk corner-notched and Kirk Stemmed points in the same archeological layer. The Hardaway Complex gradually evolved from the Hardaway Blade to the Hardaway Dalton to the Hardaway Side-notched into the Palmer/Kirk types. None of them appear simultaneously in the record. Why? I don't know.





But it is interestin` as all get out to ponder and contemplate the hows and whys of all that.


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## Whiteeagle (May 18, 2012)

If it ain't broke, don't fix it! Lots of people now days don't like change, recon it's a hold-over from the old days? Maybe they figured it was impossible to improve perfection?


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## florida boy (May 18, 2012)

Nicodemus said:


> But it is interestin` as all get out to ponder and contemplate the hows and whys of all that.



Thats what has always given me the drive to keep looking . I think we would all be shocked about the things we are so sure of that are not even close to the truth . We can only assume with any artifact we pick up .


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## fish hawk (May 18, 2012)

Nicodemus said:


> I saw a really nice Chattahoochee Dalton that was found in the Flint River, that some late Archaic or Woodland Indian had found and chipped distinct side notches into it.



I would love to see that....That is cool as all get out!!!


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## Forest Grump (May 18, 2012)

I reckon the other factor we have not considered, concerning Willjo's find, is that the poor feller might just have had him a squaw-woman, & she up & says, one day, kinda out o' the blue: "Why do you keep saving all these broken preforms? You know you're never gonna do anything with them! I'm tired of all this clutter!" and she tosses 'em out the front door of the teepee, where they are trodden into the earth & forgotten. I think we've all been there. Now, you're not gonna tell me they didn't have obstinate females back then, are ya? His stuff is junk, her junk is stuff...


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## Bow Only (May 19, 2012)

I agree more with NCHillbilly.  With that said, I have a Bolen Beveled that was made by a Woodland person.  They obviously found one and copied it.  It was not a common occurrence or I would have more examples.  Most of the time, they would just modify the old point for their use.  I have 3 or 4 examples of that.  Still not common, but it happened.


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