# Guide question



## leroy (Jan 3, 2020)

Son went with some friends to Oklahoma on a guided hunt. He said the guide would take their gun and shoot along with them. IMO it isn't right, now if all the group has their limits yeah but they didnt. Whats everyone else's experience?


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## Duckbuster82 (Jan 3, 2020)

Most guides will carry a gun but not shoot. They will carry it Incase someone in the party has an issue with their own gun. If the guide sees that the party is struggling with shooting he may jump in and knock some birds down. Bigger pile means bigger tip and often helps to get more hunts booked. Now there is also the case of where the client should say they wish for the guide not to shoot, but they should not also expect to kill the guides limit. There is also some rules about wether a guide can shoot in certain states or countries too.


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## leroy (Jan 3, 2020)

The guide was shooting ducks, my son and friends are hunters and were not struggling in their shooting to top it off there weren't that many birds so that makes it that much worse. I can assure you im not going to give a bigger tip because the guide added to the pile lol. His friends have used this guide for several years and did good and say certain guides will  shoot every year. They keep going back so it must not bother them but I wouldnt like it.


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## leroy (Jan 3, 2020)

This was their worst year with this guide, no limits.


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## Duckbuster82 (Jan 3, 2020)

So they have hunted with him before?


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## kmckinnie (Jan 3, 2020)

It would not bother me.


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## BaldofPate (Jan 3, 2020)

When you are part of a larger group, say 4-6 people, you are basically hunting for the groups limit not your own.  When that many people pop up and shoot at a group, and they start falling most people may think they killed what they were shooting at, but don't really know for sure unless it's off one of the ends of the blind/s.  No one is sitting there saying ok, John got 2, Joe got 3, and Sam is really whiffing on them today.  I've had guides shoot along with us, and not even take a gun, or have one and only use it for clean up duty if needed. As long as the guide is busting his tail, and doing all he can do to help my group have a successful hunt I don't care if he shoots or not.  In our modern age of social media, you have to also think that the post hunt pictures that the guide, and hunters will post following the hunt will look better with 22 mallards than 18.


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## leroy (Jan 3, 2020)

Took my oldest on a inshore fishing trip years ago guide pulls his pole out starts catching fish before either of us, and continued, needless to say he didnt get much of a tip.


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## leroy (Jan 3, 2020)

Duckbuster82 said:


> So they have hunted with him before?



Yes as i said for several years and as I said it must not bother them, but I wouldnt like it. To be clear they didnt make any fuss about it


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## Duckbuster82 (Jan 3, 2020)

Seems like a trend, guide thinks y’all need some help.jk

That’s beat up on the fishing guide, but if your boys hunted with the guide before i feel like he didn’t take a gun before or you would of asked this before. He probably new hunting was going to be slow so he brought a gun to help add to the pile. Most people that go with a quide expect great hunts and piles no matter the circumstances. Like it’s been said before the more birds killed the happier most clients are and the pictures help book more trips from social media and what not.


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## leroy (Jan 3, 2020)

Duckbuster82 said:


> Seems like a trend, guide thinks y’all need some help.jk
> 
> That’s beat up on the fishing guide, but if your boys hunted with the guide before i feel like he didn’t take a gun before or you would of asked this before. He probably new hunting was going to be slow so he brought a gun to help add to the pile. Most people that go with a quide expect great hunts and piles no matter the circumstances. Like it’s been said before the more birds killed the happier most clients are and the pictures help book more trips from social media and what not.



In previous years they piled them up, this was my sons first time going with them they didnt have many this year and weather played alot into that and even my son wasnt fussing, as i said its all me.


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## leroy (Jan 3, 2020)

I guess my thing is if im paying you to put me on ducks then you stand up and shoot them its sorta counter productive lol


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## tucker80 (Jan 3, 2020)

I've seen them shoot cleanup (paying group's empty and a bird still in range) and for cripples. But the main volleys they leave their gun sitting. I never minded getting an extra limit when the birds are there. We tip based in service and effort. Not how big the pile is.


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## flatsmaster (Jan 4, 2020)

This ^^^^^^^


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## critterbait (Jan 7, 2020)

I've never had a problem with the guide shooting most of the ones I hunt with in Arkansas do. Never needed a fishing guide but if I did it wouldn't bother me if he fished to. Like tucker80 said my tip is based off service and effort.


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## tayjack1987 (Jan 7, 2020)

heres the deal. A lot of people that hunt with a guide are not big hunters. maybe corporate guys for example that hunt once or twice a year. the guide wants to get in there get the group limit and get out to let his spot rest. he does not want to be in there all day burning his spots up, so he shoots to speed up the process.


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## leroy (Jan 7, 2020)

Ive never hired a duck guide, but guess if there were plenty of ducks might be ok with it but if my group is coming out with no limits and not the result of bad shooting but lack of ducks and part of the kills are the guides then again I wouldnt be a happy camper.


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## Juan De (Jan 7, 2020)

I went to Washington Sea duck hunting, guide and his son both carried a gun, we split up. They only shot as clean up for cripples or we invited them to shoot on the big groups that came in. We were only after taxidermy birds. I’d go back with them in a second, great folks.


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## jdgator (Jan 7, 2020)

If I didn't want a guide shooting I would have spoken up in the hunt. Guides are usually willing to accommodate that kind of request. But they can't read minds. I probably would have asked him to wait until we had each shot three shells before he finished off the flight.


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## Red Dawg (Jan 7, 2020)

My experience with guides has always been, I am paying him to take me where the birds, ducks or fish are at.  I am not paying him to fish or hunt and every guide I have used tole me to keep shooting or fishing until I had both limits.  The guide then cleaned and bagged up the fish birds or ducks.  If your guide is not doing that then you are just paying someone to hunt with them.  Heck I need to start charging all my dead beat buddies. Hahahaha


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## leroy (Jan 7, 2020)

Red Dawg said:


> My experience with guides has always been, I am paying him to take me where the birds, ducks or fish are at.  I am not paying him to fish or hunt and every guide I have used tole me to keep shooting or fishing until I had both limits.  The guide then cleaned and bagged up the fish birds or ducks.  *If your guide is not doing that then you are just paying someone to hunt with them.  *Heck I need to start charging all my dead beat buddies. Hahahaha



^^this, my point exactly*, especially the paying someone to hunt with them part. *

*Hey im gonna let you pay me X amount to watch me shoot your ducks lol, but hey im just helping you get your limit to make me look good on my website pictures so i can get more folks to pay me to hunt with them lol*


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## Duckbuster82 (Jan 8, 2020)

Red Dawg said:


> My experience with guides has always been, I am paying him to take me where the birds, ducks or fish are at.  I am not paying him to fish or hunt and every guide I have used tole me to keep shooting or fishing until I had both limits.  The guide then cleaned and bagged up the fish birds or ducks.  If your guide is not doing that then you are just paying someone to hunt with them.  Heck I need to start charging all my dead beat buddies. Hahahaha



Your guide lets you break that law?


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## Lightnrod (Jan 8, 2020)

I think you're looking at this all wrong. I've been hunting with guides for the last twenty years. And have hunted in Oklahoma the last 10. Our guide always brings a gun and shoots. He's shooting his limit. They like duck hunting just as much as we do. A party of say 6 hunters has a limit of 36 ducks whether you limit out or not. Your guide also has a limit of 6 ducks, I've never run into a guide who wouldn't donate his limit to the party's if they came up short. I also know that if everyone limits out they are sure to divide the birds up among the members including their own. When 7 people are shooting at 200 birds falling into a stock pond at daybreak it's hard to say who killed what. Also, the other guides scout relentlessly when your party is being taken to a spot. You pay for everyone's time in the guide service,not just them taking you to a place to shoot ducks and ride back to the lodge. You pay for the experience not the ducks.


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## MudDucker (Jan 8, 2020)

I prefer a guide to bring his gun and mainly to handle any cripples, but if there are plenty of birds, some take shots as the paying hunters have shot out.  I would not want one to compete with me.  Many states are taking the guides ability to hunt away.


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## mallardsx2 (Jan 8, 2020)

Interesting but it doesn't surprise me. Most people that show up dont know how to shoot and the guide doesn't want 250 shells fired in his private lease to fill a 4 man limit...


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## leroy (Jan 8, 2020)

MudDucker said:


> I prefer a guide to bring his gun and mainly to handle any cripples, but if there are plenty of birds, some take shots as the paying hunters have shot out.  I would not want one to compete with me.  Many states are taking the guides ability to hunt away.



And I would be ok with either of those scenarios, but as you said not competing.


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## leroy (Jan 8, 2020)

Lightnrod said:


> I think you're looking at this all wrong. I've been hunting with guides for the last twenty years. And have hunted in Oklahoma the last 10. Our guide always brings a gun and shoots. He's shooting his limit. They like duck hunting just as much as we do. A party of say 6 hunters has a limit of 36 ducks whether you limit out or not. Your guide also has a limit of 6 ducks, I've never run into a guide who wouldn't donate his limit to the party's if they came up short. I also know that if everyone limits out they are sure to divide the birds up among the members including their own. When 7 people are shooting at 200 birds falling into a stock pond at daybreak it's hard to say who killed what. Also, the other guides scout relentlessly when your party is being taken to a spot. You pay for everyone's time in the guide service,not just them taking you to a place to shoot ducks and ride back to the lodge. You pay for the experience not the ducks.



No not lookin at it wrong IMO, and no I would be paying to shoot ducks thats the main experience I would be interested in, not paying for a hunting buddy.


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## Lightnrod (Jan 8, 2020)

Well i'll say this, seems that your son didn't complain about his hunt. I'll take it that he was satisfied, end of subject. As they say opinions are like noses everyone's got one or at least started with one. And that's what makes this a great place to bounce questions. opinions, and comments off each other to learn or agree or disagree.


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## Duckbuster82 (Jan 8, 2020)

Souhternhunter17 said:


> We have a guide business in Arkansas and we do take our guns, primarily for shooting cripples. If a bigger group comes in we will shoot but not at singles and doubles. Clients that are paying like the opportunity to kill your 6 birds too... lol.



Be ready to have the man come check you out. Just told him you allow others to shoot your limit.


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## rnelson5 (Jan 8, 2020)

Souhternhunter17 said:


> We have a guide business in Arkansas and we do take our guns, primarily for shooting cripples. If a bigger group comes in we will shoot but not at singles and doubles. Clients that are paying like the opportunity to kill your 6 birds too... lol.


Taking money from a person for guiding waterfowl and then letting them break the law is a violation of the Lacey Act. I know it happens, but why in the world would you say that on an open forum?!? Have you seen the penalties for stuff like this?


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## Dbender (Jan 8, 2020)

Wow! Some of you duck hunters must be miserable to share a blind with.


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## mizzippi jb (Jan 8, 2020)

He didn't say anything other than they are paying a bunch of money..... Enough money that it would seem like you ought to be able to shoot more than your limit.


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## Mexican Squealer (Jan 8, 2020)

I worked for Robin Jones and Dennis Campbell when guiding was legal in bayou meto from around 90’ to 95’ or so...we carried big groups in big Jon boats and all the guides shot their  own ducks. Some of the best memories of my life and boatloads of happy clients. I was supposed to be in school at the College of Charleston but instead I was crushing greenheads coming into the timber 500 at a time. No one ever had a problem with it as we killed our birds and they killed theirs. Man what I would do to experience those days again. Hard work and memories I will take to my grave.


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## Duckbuster82 (Jan 9, 2020)

mizzippi jb said:


> He didn't say anything other than they are paying a bunch of money..... Enough money that it would seem like you ought to be able to shoot more than your limit.


You should go back an read it again.


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## dfhooked (Jan 9, 2020)

My take is that when you hire any type of guide you should go over expectations on the front end. This way you can make the determination if you want to hire said guide. If there are any issues on the hunt that are out of line from what was agreed upon then you have a right to complain. You definitely are not allowed to shoot the guides limit or catch the guides limit of fish legally.

 I know that in Oklahoma, Ks and Texas they tend to hunt larger groups when they are on big numbers of geese or ducks and some of those services hunt as well. If I’m paying a guide it’s the expectation that they do their best to make the most of any given situation, they can’t make ducks fly. I have no problem if the guide shoots if it’s one of those days that are amazing. However if it’s a slow day it is not fair to the paying customers for the guide to be shooting. You can stare at empty skies anywhere on any given day. That’s another reason whether it’s an offshore fishing trip, fly fishing trip or a duck hunt you are best to plan for multiple days because some days are better than others.


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## leroy (Jan 9, 2020)

dfhooked said:


> However if it’s a slow day it is not fair to the paying customers for the guide to be shooting.



This is my only gripe as it was slow days, no limits were shot. If they had been covered in ducks that would be different story.


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## delacroix (Jan 9, 2020)

Souhternhunter17 said:


> ...Clients that are paying like the opportunity to kill your 6 birds too... lol.



Thought this was obvious. By firing his gun the guide is adding value to the hunt you paid for. Leaving his gun is giving you less.


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## leroy (Jan 9, 2020)

delacroix said:


> Thought this was obvious. By firing his gun the guide is adding value to the hunt you paid for. Leaving his gun is giving you less.



Lol, i would be paying the guide to put me on ducks to shoot, not watch him shoot them. Wouldnt be any value in that to me unless I already had my limit.


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## delacroix (Jan 9, 2020)

leroy said:


> Lol, i would be paying the guide to put me on ducks to shoot, not watch him shoot them. Wouldnt be any value in that to me unless I already had my limit.



Now you're catching on.


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## MudDucker (Jan 10, 2020)

If the guide has a magnetic stick on sign on his vehicle, you might want to reconsider.  Just saying.


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## CJT (Jan 11, 2020)

Souhternhunter17 said:


> I take my gun, we all shoot until we as a group fill our limits. Its not like I say “okay guys im going to carry my gun so you can shoot my limit as well.” Lol. Im simply saying clients like the opprutunity for the group to kill 6 more birds.


To be clear here, and something that no one has come out and pointed out specifically, “party” hunting is illegal and if proven will get you a ticket. It is also unethical. The limit of 6 total ducks is a daily limit per person. I hunt primarily with my 11 yr old son. There are days I limit out in 15 mins and sit there with him for another hour or two and we walk out with say 10 ducks total because he only killed 4 ducks. He didn’t get out of the bed for me to kill his ducks. If you are shooting 6 limits of ducks as a party and then dividing up the ducks to accommodate limits for all, you are breaking the law, and as rnelson said, the guide is allowing you too, period.


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## Mexican Squealer (Jan 12, 2020)

Souhternhunter17 said:


> I take my gun, we all shoot until we as a group fill our limits. Its not like I say “okay guys im going to carry my gun so you can shoot my limit as well.” Lol. Im simply saying clients like the opprutunity for the group to kill 6 more birds.



You aren’t very familiar with the laws regarding party hunting. Are you new at this or just not the sharpest knife in the drawer? Believe I’d be erasing your posts quickly if I were you....


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## Souhternhunter17 (Jan 12, 2020)

Mexican Squealer said:


> You aren’t very familiar with the laws regarding party hunting. Are you new at this or just not the sharpest knife in the drawer? Believe I’d be erasing your posts quickly if I were you....



Who are you the game warden of the GON forum? I know the regulations? I have been hunting waterfowl from a young age. However regardless when I am hunting I am not concerned with asking after every volley who killed how many birds? I sure don’t know any guide buissness that does? Im sure every time you have hunted you unload your gun when you “think” you have killed your 6. Yeah right... Ive been hunting on private and public land all over and never have been checked by Gw’s and never had any issues.


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## Souhternhunter17 (Jan 12, 2020)

Mexican Squealer said:


> Nope just someone older and more experienced than you letting you know you don’t know what the duck you are talking about. Keep on keepin’ on young fella. Like most whipper snappers, you got it all figured out.



I don’t claim to have it all figured out but I do know if the way I “group hunt” is so egregiously illegal than the vast majority of people who waterfowl hunt break the law just about every hunt.


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## Mexican Squealer (Jan 12, 2020)

Correct....and I don’t give a dang how you do it. I was just making sure you knew you were admitting to breaking the law.


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## rnelson5 (Jan 12, 2020)

You should go listen to Ryan Wardens podcast series on The end of the line. Federal wardens literally book hunts with guides and look for violations like these. No one is trying to cocky just letting you know. It is crazy what waterfowl violations can cost you these days and especially when money is changing hands. Don’t think for a second there aren’t wardens that look at this site and all over social media. It makes their job easy when people make a post about breaking the law. I know a couple guys first hand that this has happened to.


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## jasper181 (Jan 12, 2020)

Southern Hunter - Who are you the game warden of the GON forum? I know the regulations? I have been hunting waterfowl from a young age. However regardless when I am hunting I am not concerned with asking after every volley who killed how many birds? I sure don’t know any guide buissness that does? Im sure every time you have hunted you unload your gun when you “think” you have killed your 6. Yeah right... Ive been hunting on private and public land all over and never have been checked by Gw’s and never had any issues.

I think what Ms was trying to say is he doesn't care what you do or don't, nor about his beliefs. Simply that you admitted to breaking the law on a public forum and was just letting you know in case you didn't realize how party laws worked.

On topic, I've been guiding for over a decade from the Carolinas to Florida, both upland and waterfowl, deer and hogs. Not once have I ever shot a bird, other than a crippled without first making my intentions known, and only then if I'm asked. Most places, the guide, just like a paid captain, he doesn't get to have a limit as well. It's my belief as well, if I take a group hunting and I killed most of the birds for a bigger "pile" as someone mentioned, I don't see how this is doing anything for my pocket. What does help with that is helping struggling shooters with some pointers to have more success, working hard to put them on animals and making it obvious I've done everything in my power to offer them a good, safe trip and put them in the best situation to have a successful hunt.


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## CJT (Jan 12, 2020)

One of the biggest problems we have with the sport of waterfowling now in general is that for most guys it has become so much about the “pile” and the numbers game. A guided experience, if one chooses to go that route, should be about more than just filling limits. The “pile” and the social media post bragging about what you killed should not be the ultimate goal of a day spent hunting waterfowl. Southernhunter, you are correct about one thing though, because of this “pile” and limit mentality, there are many groups who do party hunt. We have lost touch with the purity of what it means to be a waterfowler.


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## delacroix (Jan 13, 2020)

rnelson5 said:


> You should go listen to Ryan Wardens podcast series on The end of the line. Federal wardens literally book hunts with guides and look for violations like these. No one is trying to cocky just letting you know. It is crazy what waterfowl violations can cost you these days and especially when money is changing hands. Don’t think for a second there aren’t wardens that look at this site and all over social media. It makes their job easy when people make a post about breaking the law. I know a couple guys first hand that this has happened to.



I'm more concerned that tax dollars are used to send feds on holiday under the guise of undercover work. Theft and corruption right there.


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## CJT (Jan 13, 2020)

delacroix said:


> I'm more concerned that tax dollars are used to send feds on holiday under the guise of undercover work. Theft and corruption right there.


Theft and corruption? What are you talking about?!! It’s no different than a police officer pretending to hire a prostitute in order to uncover the larger ring of operation. Would you prefer that the guide operations be allowed to just continue violating laws? The only theft going on is the resource being stolen from you and me by these outfits, if they are in fact breaking laws. I can assure you that any of the LE officers who have done this are not enjoying it. They are not on holiday at all. I’m sure it is very stressful.


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## flatsmaster (Jan 13, 2020)

To CJT point ... my buddy has a great place in Ms so we kill birds ... after the hunt the memories discussed and the laughter shared is seldom if ever about the limits ... A individual guide or group should shoot what there allowed by law if possible and hunt again another day ... to the OP .. anyone hiring a guide for ducks or fishing should discuss UPFRONT the expectations of both parties and decide if what he's offering is what ur looking for in a hunting or fishing opportunity ... only duck hunted with 1guide and he made clear he called shots and would shoot cripples bc it's his dog working ... common sense ... not just anyone shooting if mines in the water ... hunt hard and protect the resource bc one day these maybe the good old days


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## rnelson5 (Jan 13, 2020)

delacroix said:


> I'm more concerned that tax dollars are used to send feds on holiday under the guise of undercover work. Theft and corruption right there.


It happens everyday. You should listen to that podcast and see the resources spent on that investigation over the course of several years. If they spend that kind of money you can bet hefty charges are coming.


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## delacroix (Jan 13, 2020)

CJT said:


> Theft and corruption? What are you talking about?!! It’s no different than a police officer pretending to hire a prostitute in order to uncover the larger ring of operation. Would you prefer that the guide operations be allowed to just continue violating laws? The only theft going on is the resource being stolen from you and me by these outfits, if they are in fact breaking laws. I can assure you that any of the LE officers who have done this are not enjoying it. They are not on holiday at all. I’m sure it is very stressful.


Cop on a prostitution sting does enjoy her services. Then again I question why tax dollars are wasted telling some poor woman what to do with her body.

The problem here is you enjoy the theft and waste of taxes to tell people what to do so much you go into raptures imagining what it must be like. Talk about ethics...


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## CJT (Jan 13, 2020)

delacroix said:


> Cop on a prostitution sting does enjoy her services. Then again I question why tax dollars are wasted telling some poor woman what to do with her body.
> 
> The problem here is you enjoy the theft and waste of taxes to tell people what to do so much you go into raptures imagining what it must be like. Talk about ethics...


Somebody please explain to me what he’s talking about here..........? Or better yet, can you clarify?


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## Juan De (Jan 13, 2020)

Bottom line is this in the Atlantic flyway. you get 6 ducks per hunter a day and out of that 6 you can have only a few of various spieces, and the season for Harlequin ducks is closed.

If people didn’t break the law wardens wouldn’t be necessary. I have family in law enforcement and they have to do what they can with in the limits of the law to catch those that abuse and don’t appreciate the laws which are in place to protect our lives and our outdoors.


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## tgw925 (Jan 14, 2020)

NEVER expect "limits" when hunting with a guide. That is one word that in my eyes is well over used in the industry. Yes "making a pile" adds to the fun but there much more to it.


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## leroy (Jan 14, 2020)

tgw925 said:


> NEVER expect "limits" when hunting with a guide. That is one word that in my eyes is well over used in the industry. Yes "making a pile" adds to the fun but there much more to it.



I keep hearing there is more to it than limits, more to it than"the pile". What is the more? I like to fellowship with other hunters, enjoy watching ducks work, hearing the calling, but at the end of the day what I like more is a full stringer of ducks, especially if im paying for it! And thats what im hoping for if i were to hire a guide and after several trips with no full stringers im hunting another guide.


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