# For whom did Christ die?



## G5BONECRUSHER (Dec 12, 2011)

I'm not trying to hijack the "elect" thread below. Just wanted to start fresh with my thoughts and get others feedback. 

It seems to me that the Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9 (the foundational scriptures for this interpretation) is seeking the answer to a question that the scripture doesn’t address....  Then looks at all other scripture through the lense of this interpretation.

The answer to the question; Why some believe and others do not?  is not being addressed in this scripture.

The word of God is clear about who Christ died For.

*For whom did Christ die?*

John 3:16 "For God so loved the* world*, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the *world* might be saved through him. 18 *Whoever* believes in him is not condemned, but *whoever *does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 

1 John 2:2 He (Christ) is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of *the whole world*. 

 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that *any* should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,4 who desires* all people *to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a *ransom for all*, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

Isaiah 53:6 *All we* like sheep have gone astray; we have turned--*every one-*-to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Romans 3:23 for *all *have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be *received by faith*. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his *divine forbearance* he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the *one who has faith* in Jesus.  

Romans 5:6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for *the ungodly*……..  15 But the *free gift *is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus *Christ abounded for many*. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. 18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to *justification and life for all men*.
 42 They said to the woman, "It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the *Savior of the world.*"

The Bible says, I believe on twenty six separate occasions cited above and below (just the ones I could find), that Jesus Christ’s blood, shed on the cross was the propitiation for the sins of one of the following: the world, the ungodly, all men, all, everyone ,us all, any, whoever,…… I would bet at least one of them is in the correct context to mean anyone who has ever lived and will live, as a free gift to be received by faith in order that the world might be saved through him. The application of that atonement is conditional upon belief. It can be equally true to say that the atonement is only for the “sheep” or believers because it only affects the sheep. 

Why? Because he loved us. To show God’s righteousness, (His Glory) in his divine forbearance, so that he might be just and the justifier (His Glory Again) of the one who has faith in Jesus. 

Other supporting scripture below…

Matthew 11:28-30,Matthew 18:14,John 1:7,John 1:29,John 3:16-17,John 6:33, 51 John 12:32, 47, Romans 1:6, Romans 10:13,2 Corinthians 5:14-15, 1 Timothy 4:10,Titus 2:11,Hebrews 2:9,Hebrews 10:10,2 Peter 3:9,1 John 4:14, John 4:42,Revelation 22:17


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## Crubear (Dec 12, 2011)

Not sure who said it originally, but....

Some don't believe because they've never met a Christian,
Others don't beleive because they have!!!

I believe that we're in the same trouble when Jesus comes back as the Pharisees and Sadduces were when He came the first time.  We teach the bindings of Scripture just like they did in their day. Not the freedom that Jesus came to offer.

If you can't tell someone how Jesus has changed your life in a meaningful way, what can you really offer? Forgiveness of sin to someone who doesn't believe in eternal punishment does what?

Christians spend more time preaching what they're against. And when we tell the world what we believe in, they see our hippocrasy. Example, we say marriage is between a man and woman. So why is the divorce rate among Christians the same as the rest of society? Why is the divorce rate among the clergy the same as well?

For some reason we've stopped offering the Good News and settled on offering the Yoke.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 12, 2011)

G5BONECRUSHER said:


> I'm not trying to hijack the "elect" thread below. Just wanted to start fresh with my thoughts and get others feedback.
> 
> It seems to me that the Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9 (the foundational scriptures for this interpretation) is seeking the answer to a question that the scripture doesn’t address....  Then looks at all other scripture through the lense of this interpretation.
> 
> ...



Hijacking is a good thing 

Great post!


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## mtnwoman (Dec 12, 2011)

Crubear said:


> Not sure who said it originally, but....
> 
> Some don't believe because they've never met a Christian,
> Others don't beleive because they have!!!
> ...



A much heavier yoke than Christ offers us!


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## gtparts (Dec 13, 2011)

While I have commented in many of these threads on Calvinist theology, I have always puzzled about how one can accept Calvin's notion of election and still see God as love. It is not merely a characteristic of our heavenly father. He is love. While His sovereignty is unquestioned, it is clearly not His nature to discriminate among His creation, those that will and won't be saved, those He will love and those He despises. God is not arbitrary. When God does favor one above others, it is for just reasons we may never grasp and is intimately related to His will as it applies to everyone (all people). If there is one that hates sin, yet loves the sinner, it is God. The void that separates the "lambs" from the "goats" is not based on whether God loves one or the other. He loves them both. The separation (indeed, the distinction) is based on the response from the creature. God weeps in joy for those that are reconciled to Him. He weeps for those that will not turn to Him, for though He loves them, He is also just. If He would not spare His own Son, whose suffering was sufficient to redeem all mankind, can He spare those that choose to live in sin, violating His holy law and rejecting God's salvation?


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## Ronnie T (Dec 13, 2011)

G5BONECRUSHER said:


> I'm not trying to hijack the "elect" thread below. Just wanted to start fresh with my thoughts and get others feedback.
> 
> It seems to me that the Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9 (the foundational scriptures for this interpretation) is seeking the answer to a question that the scripture doesn’t address....  Then looks at all other scripture through the lense of this interpretation.
> 
> ...



I like your choice of using Paul's letter to the Roman Christians.
For 5 chapters Paul makes it clear that Christ died for all sinners (including jeffery dalmer), and through trusting and believing, any person can receive Christ.... and give themselves to Christ at the same time (Chap 6).


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## JB0704 (Dec 13, 2011)

Crubear said:


> We teach the bindings of Scripture just like they did in their day. Not the freedom that Jesus came to offer........Christians spend more time preaching what they're against.......For some reason we've stopped offering the Good News and settled on offering the Yoke.



I enjoyed reading this, and absolutely agree.


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## StriperAddict (Dec 13, 2011)

Great thread!

Thanks for sharing this better than I could, Crubear...


Crubear said:


> Not sure who said it originally, but....
> 
> Some don't believe because they've never met a Christian,
> Others don't beleive because they have!!!
> ...


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## formula1 (Dec 13, 2011)

*Re:*

Great thread! Thanks for posting!

If you hold onto a yoke that man presented you, you are still in chains.  If you join into the yoke of Christ, He is the strong ox that will lead you and carry the weight of your burden(sin).  Then, you will know freedom!


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## rjcruiser (Dec 13, 2011)

G5BONECRUSHER said:


> The application of that atonement is conditional upon belief. It can be equally true to say that the atonement is only for the “sheep” or believers because it only affects the sheep.



Maybe I'm stepping in a big pile of doodoo.....but....I don't see how you can say on one hand, Christ died for all...but on the other hand, his death/resurrection only applies to a few.

Either His death/resurrection was for all, or His death/resurrection is for a few.  I don't think those two are compatible.


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## jmharris23 (Dec 13, 2011)

You might consider these words from John Piper



> Belief in Jesus: Its Barriers and Blessings
> 
> December 10, 2011 | by John Piper | Scripture: John 12:37–50 | Topic: Faith
> 
> ...



Full Sermon here: http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/sermons/belief-in-jesus-its-barriers-and-blessings


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## mtnwoman (Dec 13, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Maybe I'm stepping in a big pile of doodoo.....but....I don't see how you can say on one hand, Christ died for all...but on the other hand, his death/resurrection only applies to a few.
> 
> Either His death/resurrection was for all, or His death/resurrection is for a few.  I don't think those two are compatible.



The way I look at that is that Christ died for anyone who will believe. He died for those who do not believe but it doesn't effect them if they reject Him.

It's like someone sending a rescue boat to get you and you won't get in the boat, the ones who do get in the boat are gonna be saved. Doesn't mean that boat wasn't meant for every one though, does it?  The intention of the boat was to save everyone not just a few choice people. Those left behind are the ones that refused the safety of the boat. The one that brought the boat is still the saviour, but only of those that opted to get in the boat. He's not the saviour of the ones who refused.


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## rjcruiser (Dec 13, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> The way I look at that is that Christ died for anyone who will believe.


I agree with you on this.



mtnwoman said:


> He died for those who do not believe but it doesn't effect them if they reject Him.
> 
> It's like someone sending a rescue boat to get you and you won't get in the boat, the ones who do get in the boat are gonna be saved. Doesn't mean that boat wasn't meant for every one though, does it?  The intention of the boat was to save everyone not just a few choice people. Those left behind are the ones that refused the safety of the boat. The one that brought the boat is still the saviour, but only of those that opted to get in the boat. He's not the saviour of the ones who refused.



I think where I disagree with the above is that God is not like a rescue boat.  His intentions actually come to fruition.  If you believe that His intentions sometimes fail to actually come about, then you must believe that He is not in total control of all things.


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## gtparts (Dec 13, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Maybe I'm stepping in a big pile of doodoo.....but....I don't see how you can say on one hand, Christ died for all...but on the other hand, his death/resurrection only applies to a few.
> 
> Either His death/resurrection was for all, or His death/resurrection is for a few.  I don't think those two are compatible.



It is hard to wrap ones head around two facts supported by Scripture.

1) Christ's sacrifice on the cross paid for all sin, for all time. 

2) Having that debt payment applied to our individual accounts is predicated on our individual belief in who Christ is and what He has done for us OR our lack of belief, and consequently, our rejection of the free gift of eternal life. That is a choice, not a work, and is made possible by God giving us the example and the faith, yet leaving that decision to us. Clearly this can be seen in the one who has heard the Gospel, that salvation can be his or hers, yet turns their back to God and His love for them. The real question is, "How long will the love and patience of God cause Him to extend mercy, before He exercises justice?".


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## G5BONECRUSHER (Dec 13, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Maybe I'm stepping in a big pile of doodoo.....but....I don't see how you can say on one hand, Christ died for all...but on the other hand, his death/resurrection only applies to a few.
> 
> Either His death/resurrection was for all, or His death/resurrection is for a few.  I don't think those two are compatible.



I agree with you completely.... Christ was the propitiation for all men.

*"Christ died for the sheep"* Is a term that some Calvanist  friends of mine like to use to say that Christ died for the Elect. 

I was simply saying that I can agree with that statement as the application is only available to those who believe. So it would be in line with my belief to say that Christ died for the *sheep* if that means... 

*"those who do or will acknowledge that we are all sinners in desperate need of a Savior, accept the gift that is has been offered to all men in Christ, and cast our faith upon Jesus".*

God desires for all men to come to know him through Christ.

Did that clarify my view?


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## JB0704 (Dec 13, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> If you believe that His intentions sometimes fail to actually come about, then you must believe that He is not in total control of all things.



RJ, unfortunately, this system would attribute all things, good, evil, etc. to God's will.

I don't think God always gets his way because we have free will to choose otherwise.


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## common man (Dec 13, 2011)

Wow here we go.


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## rjcruiser (Dec 13, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> RJ, unfortunately, this system would attribute all things, good, evil, etc. to God's will.
> 
> I don't think God always gets his way because we have free will to choose otherwise.





I guess that would be where we differ.

All things are under God's will.  Yes, I said all.  

God always gets His way.  He is omnipotent.  Therefore, our will can't trump God's.


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## JB0704 (Dec 13, 2011)

common man said:


> Wow here we go.



Oh, come on.....this stuff is fun.....



rjcruiser said:


> God always gets His way.  He is omnipotent.  Therefore, our will can't trump God's.



....unless he lets it.  Perhaps a condition of creation, a choice between good and evil?

Otherwise, every time this happens:

http://www.ajc.com/news/cherokee/police-find-body-of-1249642.html

...we are left saying that is how God wanted it to be.  Which I find to be in contrast with the God of the Bible.  If sin is God's will, then who is the sin committed against?  Why are the condemned punished for God's choices?


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## stringmusic (Dec 13, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> RJ, unfortunately, this system would attribute all things, good, evil, etc. to God's will.
> 
> I don't think God always gets his way because we have free will to choose otherwise.





rjcruiser said:


> I guess that would be where we differ.
> 
> All things are under God's will.  Yes, I said all.
> 
> God always gets His way.  He is omnipotent.  Therefore, our will can't trump God's.



What if Gods' will is to give us free will? Then Gods' will be done and we are still left with the choice to choose.

Yeaaaaaaah, now everybody sing kumbaya


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## JB0704 (Dec 13, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> What if Gods' will is to give us free will? Then Gods' will be done and we are still left with the choice to choose.



See #19.

I can agree only if the actions of free will cannot be defined as God's will, otherwise we have to say evil is God's will which contradicts absolutely everything Jesus teaches us.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 13, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> I think where I disagree with the above is that God is not like a rescue boat.  His intentions actually come to fruition.  If you believe that His intentions sometimes fail to actually come about, then you must believe that He is not in total control of all things.



x2

All who are loved by Christ are redeemed by Christ. They are his people, his sheep, his church.


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## stringmusic (Dec 13, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> See #19.
> 
> I can agree only if the actions of free will cannot be defined as God's will, otherwise we have to say evil is God's will which contradicts absolutely everything Jesus teaches us.



The actions of free will are not Gods' will IMO, the free will given to us in Gods' will is only that, we can make our own choices.

I _choose_ to make Gods' will my will.(As best I can)


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## stringmusic (Dec 13, 2011)

gemcgrew said:


> x2
> 
> All who are loved by Christ are redeemed by Christ. They are his people, his sheep, his church.



Do you think there are people that are not loved by Christ?


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## JB0704 (Dec 13, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> The actions of free will are not Gods' will IMO.



I agree.

But, this gives me a thought, if a child has Calvinist parents, they could blame everything on God.....

Why would one punish a child if they are just doing God's will?


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## rjcruiser (Dec 13, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Oh, come on.....this stuff is fun.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Really?  What about Job?  What about the trials in James 1?

It is impossible for our human minds to see the complete picture of God's will.  In the case of little girl above, we can only see the current picture.  We can't see the future results of what happened.  Obviously, what happened was a truly evil/heinous crime that no one would wish on anybody.  But I have to say, God could've prevented it had He wished.  It was not in His will to prevent it.




stringmusic said:


> What if Gods' will is to give us free will? Then Gods' will be done and we are still left with the choice to choose.
> 
> Yeaaaaaaah, now everybody sing kumbaya



Umm....no...don't think I can agree with that as I don't think those two things can be compatible....until we are saved by God to choose the way of escape He provides for us.



JB0704 said:


> I agree.
> 
> But, this gives me a thought, if a child has Calvinist parents, they could blame everything on God.....
> 
> Why would one punish a child if they are just doing God's will?



You're leaving out the other side of the coin.  Man's responsibility.  We are responsible to live our live's for Christ and to obey.


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## stringmusic (Dec 13, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Umm....no...don't think I can agree with that as I don't think those two things can be compatible....until we are saved by God to choose the way of escape He provides for us.



You don't think that _possibly_ part of Gods' will is to give us free will to choose His will or not?

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying God could not force His will upon us in this situation, but how would He love us if we are forced?


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## stringmusic (Dec 13, 2011)

Hey RJ, you want to make another avatar bet on who wins this debate?


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## rjcruiser (Dec 13, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Hey RJ, you want to make another avatar bet on who wins this debate?



shut it.  I'm done with avatar bets for the year.


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## rjcruiser (Dec 13, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> You don't think that _possibly_ part of Gods' will is to give us free will to choose His will or not?



No....I don't think that is how it works.



stringmusic said:


> Don't get me wrong, I am not saying God could not force His will upon us in this situation, but how would He love us if we are forced?



How much more is His love shown knowing that He adopted us as sons and daughters of Christ?


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 13, 2011)

The problem lies in the fact that Christians preachers still think that they can teach behavior change. That is not teachable. Goes in one ear and out the other. The beauty of the gospel is that we are changed from the inside and rely on NO one for our teaching. We then have to learn through experience and God's discipline how to deny our fleshly desires. To each one stands or falls before his master, who am I to judge anothers servant. If we would quit worrying about everyone else, the gospel would be supper attractive. But it has become a place of judgement. I like what someone else said, "It's just one beggar showing another where he found bread"


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## common man (Dec 13, 2011)

Ah good ole "free will" those words are so often found in the bible together. JUst go ahead and stick with free will, let's put up how many times this word is used in the bible other than free will offerings. Just ignore all those things about election, the elect, my sheep, predestined, etc etc, those must not have been in the original language.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 13, 2011)

common man said:


> Ah good ole "free will" those words are so often found in the bible together. JUst go ahead and stick with free will, let's put up how many times this word is used in the bible other than free will offerings. Just ignore all those things about election, the elect, my sheep, predestined, etc etc, those must not have been in the original language.



Much more profitable to study the verses where the words "all things" are found together.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 13, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> ....unless he lets it.  Perhaps a condition of creation, a choice between good and evil?
> 
> Otherwise, every time this happens:
> 
> ...



God's purpose includes all the sinful acts of man.

"But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive." (Gen 50:20)

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." (Rom 8:28)


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## gemcgrew (Dec 13, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Do you think there are people that are not loved by Christ?



Yes


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## JB0704 (Dec 13, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Really?  What about Job?  What about the trials in James 1?



First, my thoughts on Job are in here: http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=641643




rjcruiser said:


> Obviously, what happened was a truly evil/heinous crime that no one would wish on anybody.  But I have to say, God could've prevented it had He wished.  It was not in His will to prevent it.



His will was free will.  Otherwise, the evil crime was God's will.  Those are not attributes I typically assign to God.  




rjcruiser said:


> You're leaving out the other side of the coin.  Man's responsibility.  We are responsible to live our live's for Christ and to obey.



Then let's discuss the golden rule, summarized as "treat others the way you want to be treated."  I believe that was Jesus' thoughts.  Now, do you want to be punished for other folk's actions?  I would guess not.  Why then would a person turn around and punish their kids for God's actions?  Come on, now, if we are robots nothing is anybody's fault, it's all God's doing.

You get caught in a big circle that makes no sense.


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## JB0704 (Dec 13, 2011)

common man said:


> Ah good ole "free will" those words are so often found in the bible together. JUst go ahead and stick with free will, let's put up how many times this word is used in the bible other than free will offerings. Just ignore all those things about election, the elect, my sheep, predestined, etc etc, those must not have been in the original language.



Rapture, trinity, etc.  The list goes on.  Do you believe in a trinity?  How 'bout a rapture.

Again, as I told RJ, I don't think Paul meant what it is you think he meant.

But hey man, Calvinism is cool!  I can do whatever I want and blame it on God, because, after all, he preordained everything I do.  I am just a tiny robot.  So, everything I do is his will.  Let's just hope I get elected, but, really, that's not my call either.


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## JB0704 (Dec 13, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> How much more is His love shown knowing that He adopted us as sons and daughters of Christ?



If he is preordaining the rape and murder of little girls, I say not so much.  That's not love.

Hitler, Dahmer, Stalin, all acting out God's will?


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## mtnwoman (Dec 13, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> I agree with you on this.
> 
> 
> 
> I think where I disagree with the above is that God is not like a rescue boat.  His intentions actually come to fruition.  If you believe that His intentions sometimes fail to actually come about, then you must believe that He is not in total control of all things.



It doesn't mean He isn't in full control if someone rejects Him, He knows that's going to happen.  Just like He doesn't force us to obey Him, which is what He wills for us. He gave us free will and let's us make our mistakes or sin if we choose. Could He control everything we do, of course He can, does He? I don't think He does, or I wouldn't have done 30 yrs of what I did after being saved.

So if God is in full control, can I blame everything bad that's ever happened to me on Him, or how about every bad decision I made, even when I prayed. Can I blame Him since He's in total control?

It's not a matter of whether He's in control or not, we know He holds full power over everything, but it's does He always choose to be?  
JMHO


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## mtnwoman (Dec 13, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> What if Gods' will is to give us free will? Then Gods' will be done and we are still left with the choice to choose.
> 
> Yeaaaaaaah, now everybody sing kumbaya



Kumaya


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## mtnwoman (Dec 13, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> The actions of free will are not Gods' will IMO, the free will given to us in Gods' will is only that, we can make our own choices.
> 
> I _choose_ to make Gods' will my will.(As best I can)




Amen!


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## ambush80 (Dec 13, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> If he is preordaining the rape and murder of little girls, I say not so much.  That's not love.
> 
> Hitler, Dahmer, Stalin, all acting out God's will?





mtnwoman said:


> It doesn't mean He isn't in full control if someone rejects Him, He knows that's going to happen.  Just like He doesn't force us to obey Him, which is what He wills for us. He gave us free will and let's us make our mistakes or sin if we choose. Could He control everything we do, of course He can, does He? I don't think He does, or I wouldn't have done 30 yrs of what I did after being saved.
> 
> So if God is in full control, can I blame everything bad that's ever happened to me on Him, or how about every bad decision I made, even when I prayed. Can I blame Him since He's in total control?
> 
> ...



Is it possible that you just might not understand the sublime righteousness of His ultimate plan?


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## mtnwoman (Dec 13, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> You're leaving out the other side of the coin.  Man's responsibility.  We are responsible to live our live's for Christ and to obey.



How do we do that without free will? He's either in full control of my will and I WILL be perfect or I try to do the best I can, with the Christ that is in me, using my will.

I'd rather have Him make me perfect and work fully within His will, but somehow I've never had that happen.


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## JB0704 (Dec 13, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> So if God is in full control, can I blame everything bad that's ever happened to me on Him, or how about every bad decision I made, even when I prayed. Can I blame Him since He's in total control?




That is what they are saying.  And, of course, God may not love you anyway, so it does not matter what evil he prescribes you to do or to be done.  Then, one magical happy day, he may elect you.

Think about this, if man is as evil as the Calvinists claim, then God made them that way.  

Man, this election stuff is a relief!


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## JB0704 (Dec 13, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> Is it possible that you just might not understand the sublime righteousness of His ultimate plan?




Perhaps, but apparently it is God making me not understand


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## ambush80 (Dec 13, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Perhaps, but apparently it is God making me not understand




When He's ready for you to come around you may end up in Gemcgrew's  and RJcruiser's camp.


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## JB0704 (Dec 13, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> When He's ready for you to come around you may end up in Gemcgrew's  and RJcruiser's camp.




I guess so.  And you will have to stay an atheist until he elects you.......I guess you have no choice......


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## mtnwoman (Dec 13, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> If he is preordaining the rape and murder of little girls, I say not so much.  That's not love.
> 
> Hitler, Dahmer, Stalin, all acting out God's will?




I guess using "their free will" is ok to use for something like this. But when you believe God and love Jesus and try to obey His commandments about loving each other etc etc...that's God's choice, not ours....He's in full control of what we do....except the rapists do what they will....where's God's control in that matter?

He either chooses to be in full control all the time or He doesn't. And yes He can if He wants to, I just don't believe He does. 

Do you know how many people are turned against God because He lets people starve around the world, and for all the evil acts committed against children and women, God's in control of that, too, how many people will not be saved based on just that one thing. I've heard it many many times, that we have a mean God.
Of course He's good to us, because we're His 'chosen'.

If God is always in full control, we can thank Him for His blessings and blame all our trials and tribulations on Him, too. Ya know thinking about it, why does God let all those people starve when He can prevent it?  I know why, because He sends us to do it, He doesn't make us do it or those people wouldn't be starving. He asks/wills for us to do it but we don't, obviously because people are still starving. Maybe I should be working on my own will doing what God wants me to do, rather than thinking God's in control, He'll handle it.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 13, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> When He's ready for you to come around you may end up in Gemcgrew's  and RJcruiser's camp.



This debate is not salvation rendering so we'll all end up in the same camp, by we I mean the saved. We who are saved are of the elect.  But that is based on the fact that we believed and repented.

It's not the saved I personally am concerned about it's those people who are not saved waiting on God to dub them an 'elect'.

I was saved based on that Jesus loved us all and wanted all of us children to come to Him.  And it made me feel sad inside for those who could not see that and that they would not be saved....that is what drives me to witness and tell others the gospel.  The Jesus that works within me desires all to come to faith, without prejudice.


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## JB0704 (Dec 13, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> I guess using "their free will" is ok to use for something like this. But when you believe God and love Jesus and try to obey His commandments about loving each other etc etc...that's God's choice, not ours....He's in full control of what we do.



I don't follow.....



mtnwoman said:


> He either chooses to be in full control all the time or He doesn't. And yes He can if He wants to, I just don't believe He does.
> 
> Do you know how many people are turned against God because He lets people starve around the world, and for all the evil acts committed against children and women, God's in control of that, too, how many people will not be saved based on just that one thing. I've heard it many many times, that we have a mean God.
> Of course He's good to us, because we're His 'chosen'.
> ...



But their entire argument is that God is always in full control.  So, folks starving, and Hitler killing 6 million Jews, and Stalin killing 20 million, and everything horrible that has ever happened was "preordained" and an act of God.

I don't think God knows the future like most Christians do.  I think it is the way we see a football season.....we know there will be a superbowl, we just don't know who will be playing.  In that sense God knows the future, but does not know who will choose and who won't.  If we choose, we are elect, if not, then not.

If God knows all of the future, then from his perspective many are already burning in he11 while they are living here.  The great commision is worthless because he knew who you would tell, and who was going to be the lucky elect.


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## JB0704 (Dec 13, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> I was saved based on that Jesus loved us all and wanted all of us children to come to Him.  And it made me feel sad inside for those who could not see that and that they would not be saved....that is what drives me to witness and tell others the gospel.  The Jesus that works within me desires all to come to faith, without prejudice.



I agree with you on this.  I think a person chooses God, just like Adam chose to sin.  If I am wrong, God made original sin occur, and none of this is man's fault.  All of the "total depravity" would be just as God wanted it.

I read the gospel, and I just don't think Jesus sees it that way.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 13, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I don't follow.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I guess that was confusing...so sorry.
Basically I was agreeing with you.

Saying God is in control, except for the bad things that happen, according to the antifreewillers.  God obviously gives evil people free will just like He gives us free will, either that or it's His fault that everything happens if He chooses to be in full control all the time, even concerning Hitler, etc.


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## ambush80 (Dec 13, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I guess so.  And you will have to stay an atheist until he elects you.......I guess you have no choice......



And I could die before I finish typing this sentence. But I didn't.



JB0704 said:


> I don't follow.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You make perfect sense but you realize that you are limiting God's power in order to do so.  I'm down with that and I think you have a Biblical leg to stand on.  God gets surprised and disappointed, and He even loses track of Adam in the garden  "Where art Thou, Adam?"  He gets mad and jealous and he takes his creation and crumples it up like a piece bad poetry, tosses it in the trash and starts over.  This is the kind of guy that's capable of anything.  Perhaps you shouldn't presume too much about what He would or wouldn't do with 6 million Jews. 



JB0704 said:


> I agree with you on this.  I think a person chooses God, just like Adam chose to sin.  If I am wrong, God made original sin occur, and none of this is man's fault.  All of the "total depravity" would be just as God wanted it.
> 
> I read the gospel, and I just don't think Jesus sees it that way.



I forget which page it is where Adam eats the fruit.  Did God know that Adam was going to eat it?  Was Adam going to do anything else?  Again, it doesn't mean that God MADE Adam do it.  Alas, here we are again.......


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## mtnwoman (Dec 13, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I agree with you on this.  I think a person chooses God, just like Adam chose to sin.  If I am wrong, God made original sin occur, and none of this is man's fault.  All of the "total depravity" would be just as God wanted it.
> 
> I read the gospel, and I just don't think Jesus sees it that way.



The Gospel in my opinion is the birth and death of Christ and the reasoning behind it. Any other scripture to attempt to prove who Christ died for is not relative. God did not destroy anyone who loved Him in the old testament and He wanted everyone to love Him and abide by His commandments. He destroyed those who would not come to Him. Just like He was gonna destroy Ninevah, something had to happen to change their minds. Why didn't God just render them to His calling, He chose them, they refused, then they heard the Good News from Jonah (who God did force/choose) and they then believed.

God didn't want them to perish so He gave them the chance/choice to come to Him. Yes, that was saved by mercy and grace, but God did not choose for them, He gave them a choice.

God can give free will to those he chooses and if He wants to control them, He will....ie Abraham, Moses, Noah, Jonah, Judas, Paul, etc etc.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 13, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Saying God is in control, except for the bad things that happen, according to the antifreewillers.



Nothing bad ever happens!

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are THE called according to his purpose." (Rom 8:28)


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## mtnwoman (Dec 13, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> I forget which page it is where Adam eats the fruit.  Did God know that Adam was going to eat it?  Was Adam going to do anything else?  Again, it doesn't mean that God MADE Adam do it.  Alas, here we are again.......



Adam had free will to eat the apple, even though he knew that was against God's will.

God asks us all to do things, like the 10 commandments for example, and we just don't do it. He could make us do it, and we could all be robots under His control, because He has that power if He chooses to use it. 

Why did God let Moses break the tablets and then send Him off into the desert to die alone without seeing the promised land? That was mean, if in fact that was God's will for that to happen that way and Moses had no free will in it.


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## common man (Dec 13, 2011)

Come on guys we are off to a good start mtnwoman, we are going to give that other post somes serious competition. What monsters of posts these two posts will be in a few months?


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## rjcruiser (Dec 13, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Hitler, Dahmer, Stalin, all acting out God's will?



I would say they were acting in a similar way to Pharoah,  Nebuchadnezzar, Ceaser, Pilot, Herod.  All tools of God to complete His plan.



mtnwoman said:


> Adam had free will to eat the apple, even though he knew that was against God's will.



You make a good point about Adam and I'll agree with you that Adam and Eve had free will.  Remember, there's a difference between Adam/Eve and you and me.  They were created perfect/without sin.  You and I...well...not so much.


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## JB0704 (Dec 13, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> I would say they were acting in a similar way to Pharoah,  Nebuchadnezzar, Ceaser, Pilot, Herod.  All tools of God to complete His plan.



Then the objects of evil are pawns in the plan, placed on Earth simply to die a horrible death.  

Man, I can't square that with what I read in the gospel of John.  Jesus telling folks to be good to each other, humble non-condemning, loving, etc.  

Is God, as you see him, a "good God?"  I know you claim he is just, but the evil you describe would have to be his plan, so where is the justice in condemning the robots?  

If you are correct, the original sin was God's plan.  So we are not really at fault, it is God's choice.....do you follow my thoughts here?


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## Crubear (Dec 13, 2011)

So let's boil this whole thing down to the basic question....Does a person have free will?


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## JB0704 (Dec 13, 2011)

Crubear said:


> So let's boil this whole thing down to the basic question....Does a person have free will?



I say yes, because otherwise, God is not what we like to claim he is.  Plus, man was able to change God's mind in the OT about a few things.

What are your thoughts?


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## mtnwoman (Dec 13, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> I would say they were acting in a similar way to Pharoah,  Nebuchadnezzar, Ceaser, Pilot, Herod.  All tools of God to complete His plan.
> *I agree with that. And I also believe others were also, Moses, Jonah, Paul, etc. All of us are not chosen to do those great deeds, good or bad. *
> 
> 
> ...



Well actually we are born sinless, we are born into sin (sinful world), but we don't remain sinless long, even a baby knows when to lie, ya know?

But speaking of control, could God have not controlled the actions of Adam and Eve? surely He knew what they would do and what would happen after that.

It's kind of funny, I post here and on a forum that is predominately NOT Christian...most are pagan or wiccan.
They too believe that if there is a God of Abraham and Him being in total control, (basically debating with me) then why would He let people starve, and so much war and crimes against children and they have an attitude against our God. I tell them well men have a choice to sin or not, to kill or not, to help or not feed the hungry, God gives us that free will. That is my explanation to them because I tell them that God is good and He loves everyone. They just won't believe that a god could let all that happen if he is that powerful and in control.

So I'm always stuck in between a rock and a hard place on my belief. That has nothing to do with anything, just that it's weird I'm in this position, and my witness is the same.


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## Crubear (Dec 13, 2011)

Yes, we have free will.

And our choices do affect others, for good and evil


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## G5BONECRUSHER (Dec 13, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I agree with you on this.  I think a person chooses God, just like Adam chose to sin.  If I am wrong, God made original sin occur, and none of this is man's fault.  All of the "total depravity" would be just as God wanted it.
> 
> I read the gospel, and I just don't think Jesus sees it that way.



Choice is inherent in the very nature of God’s creation. 

Can Good even exist without the opposite "the absence of good"? Can there be a relationship without mutual consent? Is love real if you cant choose who you love?

 Biblical evidence of choice is evident from the beginning. God placed Adam and Eve in the garden and then what did he do? Amongst other things he told them of the tree of the knowledge of good and Evil and God told them not to eat of it but gave them the physical ability to eat of it. This was clearly a choice; don’t do it and be obedient or do it and be disobedient . The same theme continues throughout history. 

It just doesn't  agree with God’s natural order of this world that he would give man the ability to choose to “not do” or “do” something that if done would result in the fall of all mankind into depravity and the inevitable need for a Savior from that depravity and place the only restriction on man's choice to be choosing to accept the gift choosing him.

  Matthew 9: 20 And behold, a woman who had suffered from a discharge of blood for twelve years came up behind him and touched the fringe of his garment, 21 for she said to herself, "If I only touch his garment, I will be made well." 22 Jesus turned, and seeing her he said, "Take heart, daughter; your faith has made you well." And instantly the woman was made well. * Christ made her well, but her faith came first.*

Matthew 19: 16 And behold, a man came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?" 17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments." 18 He said to him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 20 The young man said to him, "All these I have kept. What do I still lack?" 21 Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." Jesus gave the rich ruler a choice.22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions. Why was he sorrowful if he wasn’t convicted? How did he refuse if Grace or the Holy spirit is irresistible? 23 And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God. *It’s hard for them to choose God over their possessions.*

John 7:17 If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.* I think this says man can will to do God’s will.*

Acts-7:51 You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, *you always resist the Holy Spirit.* As your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered, 53 you who received the law as delivered by angels and did not keep it.

If man can resist there is a choice!!! 

Matthew 4:18 While walking by the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea, for they were fishermen. 19 And he said to them,"Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men." 20 Immediately they left their nets and followed him.*-- This was also a choice.*

I believe that in the creation of choice there had to be an alternative to good and obedience. If not what joy would there be for the creator in a relationship with us?  If a man is forced to love then it isn't real Love.God doesn't create evil but, by creating "good " there is also "the absence of good = evil". 

That probably sounds crazy.....


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## G5BONECRUSHER (Dec 13, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I say yes, because otherwise, God is not what we like to claim he is.  Plus, man was able to change God's mind in the OT about a few things.
> 
> What are your thoughts?



Yes, God in his sovereign right chose that we would have free will.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 13, 2011)

Crubear said:


> So let's boil this whole thing down to the basic question....Does a person have free will?



Yes

If not I have a problem with Him letting me go thru all the crapola I've been thru, and for letting me go from being a halfway good Christian to meeting people who took me to the bottom in only one year. Why didn't He protect me from that person? I was young and innocent and spent more than 30 yrs in that lifestyle. I didn't even know where a bar was when I was 23 yrs old. I went from that point to hades in about a year and stayed there. I've ask God many times, why God, why?....why did you let satan entrap me?  But when I really think about it, it was all my choices.
If in fact I am convicted that I never had free will, I have a big bone to pick with God. 

My first husband and high school sweetheart and vietnam veteran, was killed in a hunting accident because he was drunk....I blame it on the alcohol...but if I, in fact find out it was all planned out for my own good, I have another bone to pick with God. Not only did my husband die, he left me in a world with the wolves, and I was clueless, believe me. And to this day, and it has been 34 yrs, I cannot get my first husband off my mind or out of my dreams. Another bone to pick with God. My 2nd husband snatched me up and took me straight to hades.

If I can't blame things on freewill, then that only leaves God to blame these things on.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 13, 2011)

G5BONECRUSHER said:


> Choice is inherent in the very nature of God’s creation.
> 
> Can Good even exist without the opposite "the absence of good"? Can there be a relationship without mutual consent? Is love real if you cant choose who you love?
> 
> ...



No it doesn't sound crazy.

Who would want to force/choose someone to love them. And no we aren't God, but we are suppose to be like Him, right?


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## mtnwoman (Dec 13, 2011)

Crubear said:


> Yes, we have free will.
> 
> And our choices do affect others, for good and evil



Absolutely!


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## Ronnie T (Dec 13, 2011)

*For whom did Christ die?*         Romans 5: 6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

**Christ died for all ungodly.
*The gift of salvation is for believers*.      
John 3: 36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
Romans 3: 21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 

**Does everything happen the way God wishes it would??????  No!*

1 Tim 2:3-4 "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" 

2 Pet 3:9 "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance" (2 Pet. 3:9). 

-And God was angered when He came down from the mountain and found that the slaves he had freed were building a 'homemade' god to worship.

-Dozens and dozens of other scripture bears it out.  Sadly, God often does not get from us what He desires and expects.


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## ambush80 (Dec 13, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Adam had free will to eat the apple, even though he knew that was against God's will.
> 
> God asks us all to do things, like the 10 commandments for example, and we just don't do it. He could make us do it, and we could all be robots under His control, because He has that power if He chooses to use it.
> 
> Why did God let Moses break the tablets and then send Him off into the desert to die alone without seeing the promised land? That was mean, if in fact that was God's will for that to happen that way and Moses had no free will in it.



You're not hearing me.  Was Adam going to do anything other than what is written on page 15 (or wherever Genesis 3 is in your Bible of choice)?  

I'm not asking "could he have done anything differently" I am asking " was he going to"?


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## mtnwoman (Dec 13, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> You're not hearing me.  Was Adam going to do anything other than what is written on page 15 (or wherever Genesis 3 is in your Bible of choice)?
> 
> I'm not asking "could he have done anything differently" I am asking " was he going to"?




You mean was he going to do something else besides what God ordained for him to do?


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## ambush80 (Dec 14, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> You mean was he going to do something else besides what God ordained for him to do?



"Ordained" is an interesting word to use.  Lets set it aside for now.

What I am asking is: Could Genesis 3 have turned out any other way than the way that it did?


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## mtnwoman (Dec 14, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> "Ordained" is an interesting word to use.  Lets set it aside for now.
> 
> What I am asking is: Could Genesis 3 have turned out any other way than the way that it did?



Based on the fact that I believe in free will, yes it could've turned out differently.  And based on the fact that satan is involved in our lives, we have a choice between evil and good. God punished Adam and Eve, so they must've chosen to do something against His will.


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## ambush80 (Dec 14, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Based on the fact that I believe in free will, yes it could've turned out differently.  And based on the fact that satan is involved in our lives, we have a choice between evil and good. God punished Adam and Eve, so they must've chosen to do something against His will.



Did God know if Adam was going to eat the fruit?  Or put it another way.  Did God know what was going to be written in Genesis3 before it happened?


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## gemcgrew (Dec 14, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> Did God know if Adam was going to eat the fruit?  Or put it another way.  Did God know what was going to be written in Genesis3 before it happened?



"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it." (Isaiah 46:10,11)


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## mtnwoman (Dec 15, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> Did God know if Adam was going to eat the fruit?  Or put it another way.  Did God know what was going to be written in Genesis3 before it happened?



Well, I'm beginning to wonder.  It's hard for me to believe that God would allow Adam's sin to change His entire plan for the garden of eden....but obviously it happened according to what moses wrote in the torah.  God set Adam up for failure? to promote God's plan? for what, so He could punish women with childbearing? Then again we wouldn't be here if that hadn't happened.

I've never really worried about all that, I've really only tried to keep the gospel simple, and focus on my deliverance from certain things, and the fruit of the spirit, self control, forgiveness, etc. Singing praises to my Lord, for my salvation, my hope, and my peace and trying to share that with others. But I'm beginning to realize how the unsaved feel about things, that they feel they need answers  before they want to be saved, or want to try to be saved but have to wonder if they were chosen or not. I never believed that, I always believe that God said whosever believeth...but obviously some think that scripture can just be ignored.  Matthew Mark Luke and John was the gospel. The following books were for discipleship....maybe I was wrong.

This doctrine of Calvin, I mean to the extent of accepting the tulip doctrine has become a burden on me.  I went from  preaching the gospel of crusifiction and resurrection as our redemption, wondering why God would only choose certain people to grant this to.  So God gives limited atonement, whereas I thought I had full atonement.  I've prayed to rightly divide the word and there comes nothing but confusion dredging up a scripture here and there in the OT and NT proving that God only is in control of some and even if we have free will, it means nothing, because God can work it His way.  satan is the author of confusion and confusion only comes to me in this doctrine, but still on the rock I stand and believe that we all have that choice to take it or leave it, just like Adam did when it came to Eden...God gave them a perfect place to live but they did not accept it, is that God's fault or Adams?


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## Israel (Dec 15, 2011)

If we believe the testimony of the scripture, (Revelation) that Jesus is the Lamb slain _from the foundation of the world_, then perhaps we see that God had it "covered" before it even started. God's nature and good will toward us never failed nor changed. Nor did his plan. 

To me, it seems there was something of God's nature man had to learn, specifically mercy, that could not be appreciated by simply discovering God had created him. There was something about man learning he had his own will by exercising it, but that his "own will" could be subjugated for the sake of others.
Jesus was manifest in the fullness of times. 
And the just shall live by faith.
Rom 11:29  For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 
Rom 11:30  For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 
Rom 11:31  Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 
Rom 11:32 _ For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 
_


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## gordon 2 (Dec 15, 2011)

For some reason this tread and the posts herein reminds me of  V. van Goth's Sunflowers.  Like van Goth, Calvin, Mary Baker Eddy and others, and ourselves, we all have a brush and a stroke. We are student masters on the masters of the twisting tumb, the flick of the wrist.

Sunflowers, the elect and salvation are such small things to pose on a stool in God's large room. Subjects picked up to free one man, yet in our studies they loom as  landscapes and barriers and mountains to our souls.

From the original post:

 Timothy 2:3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

As a painter and a raconteur, I can sketch you  masterful icons from this scenery:

 1.People,
2.To come to the Knowledge of the truth
3.Mediator

but they are just bits of a whole!


<object width="420" height="315"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/nWN8Bv9bMmc?version=3&hl=en_US&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nWN8Bv9bMmc?version=3&hl=en_US&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="420" height="315" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>


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## formula1 (Dec 15, 2011)

*Re:*

The title of the post is 'For Whom Did Christ Die'!  This scripture keeps repeating in my head when I read this and I am compelled to share it.   

John 1
11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Born of God!  Think about it!  God bless!


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## gordon 2 (Dec 15, 2011)

formula1 said:


> The title of the post is 'For Whom Did Christ Die'!  This scripture keeps repeating in my head when I read this and I am compelled to share it.
> 
> John 1
> 11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
> ...



Yes, done. Which is why the answer to who is the elect is....drum rolllllllll...... The godly.


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## formula1 (Dec 15, 2011)

*Re:*



gordon 2 said:


> Yes, done. Which is why the answer to who is the elect is....drum rolllllllll...... The godly.



And what makes one Godly...except 'New Birth' in Christ Jesus! A gift not of our own doing but by His own tender mercies!


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## JB0704 (Dec 15, 2011)

formula1 said:


> And what makes one Godly...except 'New Birth' in Christ Jesus! A gift not of our own doing but by His own tender mercies!



Given to us because of belief, not being chosen?  That's my take on it, anyway.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 15, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Given to us because of belief, not being chosen?  That's my take on it, anyway.



Question: Belief, chosen, they  are the stuff of philoso-fickle lawyers, perhaps?

1.Life is given to us without belief. To it we are chosen. 

2.We chose to believe or acknowledge this or we don't.

3.If we chose to believe it, life is a free gift.

4. If we ignore it life is a humdrum curse, a rough river to run, a heavy load.

I believe in the ways of God who chose all life and all creation.


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## gtparts (Dec 15, 2011)

formula1 said:


> The title of the post is 'For Whom Did Christ Die'!  This scripture keeps repeating in my head when I read this and I am compelled to share it.
> 
> John 1
> 11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
> ...



Pair this with Romans 5:7-8.

*Romans 5:7-8*

New Living Translation (NLT)

 <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-28015">7</sup> Now, most people would  not be willing to die for an upright person, though someone might  perhaps be willing to die for a person who is especially good. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-28016">8</sup> But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners.


God didn't say, "I'll choose some, clean them up, and then love them. The rest, the ones I have not chosen, well .........." 

It has always been His desire, motivated by His love for sinners, to clean up as many as will yield to Him, so that we can become His sons and daughters. Such brings much joy to our heavenly Father. May He be glorified by the transformation of our lives.


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## formula1 (Dec 15, 2011)

*Re:*

Belief=Trust=Action
The action is 'He must increase, I must decrease!'


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## gordon 2 (Dec 15, 2011)

formula1 said:


> Belief=Trust=Action
> The action is 'He must increase, I must decrease!'



With all due respect and admiration and perhaps my stupidity, but the way I grasp the action is not about decreasing the self, but rather seeing, trusting, knowing that through Christ you were ever in His increase and it is not less of you that is called to action, but more of you my dear brother.

The more of Him, less of me kinda makes me feel that your mom and dad raised a filty child. I doubt that very much. I think sometimes we are stubborn, boneheaded,  and rebelious at the wrong place and at the wrong time.

The offer of more life, somehow does not square with less F1. F1 does not need to take off his shoes when he walks into the Kingdom. In fact if you what to put on rubber boots and work pants, bring extra lunch...there is all kinds of regular work and overtime.

But hey bros. that's just my take...


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## formula1 (Dec 15, 2011)

*Re:*

Gordon:

While I understand what you speak of, as F1, I am unable to function in God's Kingdom at all! I am, as F1, filthy and wretched.

As F1 recognizes 'self' attitudes and lays them at the feet of Jesus, the righteousness of Christ is realized and F1 can function in His righteousness. Then Christ has given me  victory over my wretchedness.  So, in this context, F1 has decreased and Christ has increased.   Christ in you is and always will be our only Hope!  We are all wretched and filthy without Christ!

I think of it this way, my works and my righteousness, however good, will not count for anything when I stand before my Father in heaven.  My only hope is the righteouseness of Christ, my mediator, my intercessor, my Savior!

God Bless my Friend!


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## mtnwoman (Dec 15, 2011)

I pray everyday...'less of me, Lord, and more of thee'.


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## ambush80 (Dec 15, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Well, I'm beginning to wonder.  It's hard for me to believe that God would allow Adam's sin to change His entire plan for the garden of eden....but obviously it happened according to what moses wrote in the torah.  God set Adam up for failure? to promote God's plan? for what, so He could punish women with childbearing? Then again we wouldn't be here if that hadn't happened.
> 
> I've never really worried about all that, I've really only tried to keep the gospel simple, and focus on my deliverance from certain things, and the fruit of the spirit, self control, forgiveness, etc. Singing praises to my Lord, for my salvation, my hope, and my peace and trying to share that with others. But I'm beginning to realize how the unsaved feel about things, that they feel they need answers  before they want to be saved, or want to try to be saved but have to wonder if they were chosen or not. I never believed that, I always believe that God said whosever believeth...but obviously some think that scripture can just be ignored.  Matthew Mark Luke and John was the gospel. The following books were for discipleship....maybe I was wrong.
> 
> This doctrine of Calvin, I mean to the extent of accepting the tulip doctrine has become a burden on me.  I went from  preaching the gospel of crusifiction and resurrection as our redemption, wondering why God would only choose certain people to grant this to.  So God gives limited atonement, whereas I thought I had full atonement.  I've prayed to rightly divide the word and there comes nothing but confusion dredging up a scripture here and there in the OT and NT proving that God only is in control of some and even if we have free will, it means nothing, because God can work it His way.  satan is the author of confusion and confusion only comes to me in this doctrine, but still on the rock I stand and believe that we all have that choice to take it or leave it, just like Adam did when it came to Eden...God gave them a perfect place to live but they did not accept it, is that God's fault or Adams?




All my life I've been told "Don't worry about those kinds of questions.  They will be answered when you get to Heaven."  "You won't be able to comprehend these things while you are here on Earth."  "Just trust and obey.  The most important thing is to submit."  

Who cares, really whose fault it is that Adam ate the fruit.  In regards to the OP I think the more important question is was there an alternate ending to Genesis3 where he didn't?


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## CollinsCraft77 (Dec 15, 2011)

Uhm, he died for the elect.

You are not born sinless.

I'm sure I'm in the minority here but I believe in election according to God's will. Just believed Jesus when he said it was finished. Not when he said, I've done my part. now it's up to you.

Let me ask you this. What happens to a man, woman or child that dies without hearing the gospel?


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## gemcgrew (Dec 15, 2011)

CollinsCraft77 said:


> I'm sure I'm in the minority here but I believe in election according to God's will.



Minority? Yes, but not alone.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 15, 2011)

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Uhm, he died for the elect.*Well we are not of the elect until after we believe and repent and yes He did die for us and anyone else that chooses to believe.*
> 
> You are not born sinless.*Well we should be if we were selected before the foundation of the earth, specifically selected, I mean.*
> 
> ...


  I don't know, do you? 

Someone posted this earlier, I don't know if you read it or not.

It's like me offering you a million dollars, except you'll have to come to my house to pick up the gift. Just because you come to my house to receive the gift, do you take any credit for the gift.....of course not. Same with salvation.
If you don't come or you don't want the gift, doesn't mean someone else doesn't want it....but you won't get it if you don't accept it. 

To me salvation happens in the twinkling of an eye.  He calls and calls and calls us, as soon as we respond either by mouth, in our heart, in my mind, public profession, however we do it, we have received the gift. I could not help but repent, because I was so guilt ridden the moment I believed Christ died for all my sins.

I have the free will to run around down here like a fool, all up in my own business and half of everyone else's just leaving God to His glory and not bothering Him with all my little trivial troubles.  But if He knows the count of hair on my head, He cares about my troubles and everyone else's all at the same time.
I have no doubt of the power of God, I just don't think He chooses special people to love or to love him. Why create a bunch of people just to send them to hades?


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## JB0704 (Dec 15, 2011)

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Let me ask you this. What happens to a man, woman or child that dies without hearing the gospel?


 

We have had some fun debates on that very topic.


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## JB0704 (Dec 15, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> In regards to the OP I think the more important question is was there an alternate ending to Genesis3 where he didn't?



For me personally, I am convinced there is only one reality within which the possibilities are endless because of choice.


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## G5BONECRUSHER (Dec 15, 2011)

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Uhm, he died for the elect.
> 
> You are not born sinless.



How are you not born sinless? I am sure you are familiar with Romans 9:11 "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad" .... Clearly they were not sinning in the womb? 

We are born with the propensity to sin but were sinless at birth. 

Just as Adam and Eve were sinless when placed in the Garden. Sin is a Choice.
_
I'm sure I'm in the minority here but I believe in election according to God's will._

So do I. It is God's will that the atonement be available for all men, everyone, the whole world. It is also Gods will that everyone have a choice to accept or reject.  

 J_ust believed Jesus when he said it was finished. Not when he said, I've done my part. now it's up to you._

I believe you know this has absolutely nothing to do with who God chose or didn't choose.  Jesus was saying his purpose here on this earth was complete. The price was paid. The atonement had been made and would never have to be made again. 

_Let me ask you this. What happens to a man, woman or child that dies without hearing the gospel?_

The answer to that isn't clearly revealed in God's word and  any speculation on that would be just that.

God is sovereign. He is Just. If He chooses to show Mercy on them that is his choice. 

For those who have heard it is clear.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 16, 2011)

G5BONECRUSHER said:


> So do I. It is God's will that the atonement be available for all men, everyone, the whole world. It is also Gods will that everyone have a choice to accept or reject.



Right on!

Why would God offer limited atonement when all men are equally guilty? Once again, God is no respector of persons.
Why would we have to accept or reject anything, if God already put our acceptance in us? 
Why are we asked to believe, if He has already made us believe, and why would we have to repent if we were prechosen to be saved irregardless. If we are chosen, is He gonna unchoose us, if in fact we don't believe and repent?


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## Israel (Dec 16, 2011)

Does any man have a choice to be an "uncreated" thing?
A man may have many seeming choices, and he may even believe he has the choice to "not be"...but does he? It may appear as one of his options...and indeed he may even be deceived into imagining he can will himself to not be what God has created him...to be.
What did Paul come to know?

2Co 13:8  For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 16, 2011)

G5BONECRUSHER said:


> How are you not born sinless?



 "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one."(Job 14:4)

 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."(Psalms 51:5)

 "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."(Psalms 58:3)

  "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"(Romans 5:12)


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## CollinsCraft77 (Dec 16, 2011)

Exactly. There Is but a few. I find it amazing for anyone not to believe you are born a sinner? Given that line of logic, as bad as it might appear, I would think somewhere down the line some serious freewill christian would be caught killing their children as soon as they are born to secure their sinless state and assure their place in eternity. And Im not sure I could blame them.

Nope. Born a sinner. Not what you feel but what the Bible clearly states.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 16, 2011)

In the same way we try to socialize our children not to be bullies, and to deal effectively with bullies, and in the same way we should not forget that in the beginning they were concieved out of love, so it is with salvation and election.

We are elect in that we are to a world that ever was of justice, mercy and grace, with all the responsibilities these entail, and are from a world that is unjust, merciless and disgraceful.

We are not sinners in the womb, but are born to a world that is sinful. And we learn from it, its ways.

Simply we are born to a world where we find out that in the simple occupation of a country in order to give its people justice according to selfish aims, we find out that we spread even the mightiest army the world has ever know too thin--something the world has known and forgotten perhaps thousands of times. This is the world man is born into.

The world of the elect knows that grace does not send armies to fight injustice for selfish aims in the name of justice. The world of the elect knows that Justice and Grace are the way to avoid being bullies and remedy to bullies. Since Moses and before, for justice and grace, all were saved...for these all are elect.

Let my people go is the elect's prayer to all who do and suffer injustice. But to that world the answer, the remedy is still a shovel in the face and that might is right...


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## gemcgrew (Dec 16, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> IWe are not sinners in the womb, but are born to a world that is sinful.



Scriptures please.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 16, 2011)

gemcgrew said:


> Scriptures please.



Ephesians 6 -18:

Pray at all times ( on every occasion, in every season) in the Spirit, with all manner of prayer and entreaty. To that end keep alert and watch with strong purpose and perserverance, interceding in behalf of all the saints ( God's consecrated people).

(Sometimes it is purposeful to leave the tarmac of scripture and get a little altitude.)


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## gemcgrew (Dec 16, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> (Sometimes it is purposeful to leave the tarmac of scripture and get a little altitude.)



Thank you for being honest.


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## G5BONECRUSHER (Dec 16, 2011)

gemcgrew said:


> "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one."(Job 14:4) God Can! do you think Mary was sinless???
> 
> "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."(Psalms 51:5)
> 
> ...



Not one of those verses says that you commit sin before you are born.


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## G5BONECRUSHER (Dec 16, 2011)

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Exactly. There Is but a few. I find it amazing for anyone not to believe you are born a sinner? Given that line of logic, as bad as it might appear, I would think somewhere down the line some serious freewill christian would be caught killing their children as soon as they are born to secure their sinless state and assure their place in eternity. And Im not sure I could blame them.
> 
> Nope. Born a sinner. Not what you feel but what the Bible clearly states.


 
Show me the clear scripture please.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 16, 2011)

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Exactly. There Is but a few. I find it amazing for anyone not to believe you are born a sinner? Given that line of logic, as bad as it might appear, I would think somewhere down the line some serious freewill christian would be caught killing their children as soon as they are born to secure their sinless state and assure their place in eternity. And Im not sure I could blame them.
> 
> Nope. Born a sinner. Not what you feel but what the Bible clearly states.



I thought we were born dead....according to the tulip doctrine.

Don't confuse me, please, I'm already confused in what you believe.

And as far as killing your children, does it not say somewhere  thou shalt not kill?

Good Lord of mercy help us.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 16, 2011)

G5BONECRUSHER said:


> Not one of those verses says that you commit sin before you are born.



Oh my good Lord Jesus Christ...help us...give all of us discernment on this.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 16, 2011)

G5BONECRUSHER said:


> Not one of those verses says that you commit sin before you are born.



No you were just chosen to be saved before you were born.....don't even have a chance/choice, condemned before the foundation of the world.  Oh my precious Saviour, I'm sorry that people doubt your ability to save all


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## gemcgrew (Dec 17, 2011)

G5BONECRUSHER said:


> Not one of those verses says that you commit sin before you are born.



It is an inward condition, not an outward act. Inherited from Adam.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 17, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> I thought we were born dead....according to the tulip doctrine.



According to scripture. Death is a result of sin. That which is born of the flesh. That is why "ye must be born again".


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## gemcgrew (Dec 17, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> No you were just chosen to be saved before you were born.....don't even have a chance/choice, condemned before the foundation of the world.



"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thessalonians 2:13)


"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved". (Ephesians 1:4-6)




mtnwoman said:


> Oh my precious Saviour, I'm sorry that people doubt your ability to save all



All for whom Christ died are saved. Not one will perish.


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## JB0704 (Dec 17, 2011)

gemcgrew said:


> "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thessalonians 2:13)



Who's belief?  

Chosen, being, those who believed and are sanctified through spirit.  




gemcgrew said:


> "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved". (Ephesians 1:4-6)



Is "us" defined as believers, or a group of randomly chosen lucky ones?  

I think Paul is getting at something very different here, and the group "us" is not you and me, but generic "believer."  Because, the believer have always been the ones to accept.  Even if God didn't know if you or me would believe, he knew believers would accept.

There are a lot of ways of looking at it which also line up with the concept of "love, grace, mercy, redemption."  

But, like I said before, Calvinism is cool, nobody is responsible for nothing........and God picks and chooses who has to suffer for it.


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## hummerpoo (Dec 17, 2011)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gemcgrew  
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thessalonians 2:13) 

Who's belief? 

Chosen, being, those who believed and are sanctified through spirit. 
__________________________________________________

Who is speaking: we (Paul and those with him)
Do what:              give thanks always to God
For what:             for you, brethren beloved of the Lord,
Why:                     because God hath from the beginning             chosen you (the beloved of the Lord) to salvation
By what means:  through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

Even an old country carpenter can figure that one out.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 17, 2011)

Of course Paul thought he was chosen, he was chosen before he was Paul. He was of God's chosen people, the Jews, when he was still Saul, and he was according to scripture. We were not chosen, we the gentiles were grafted into the vine by believing and repenting, not before.

Who does the gospel say will be saved?

And guess what... the Jews still have another chance after the rapture to believe and repent, they are God's chosen people and I still don't believe they will be saved if they don't believe and repent, they missed their chance, well some of them did, some are messianic Jews and have believed and repented regarding Christ. I guess they had free will to, to reject Christ, eh?


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## G5BONECRUSHER (Dec 17, 2011)

gemcgrew said:


> It is an inward condition, not an outward act. Inherited from Adam.



The propensity to sin would be an inward condition. One would have to commit a sin to be a sinner by definition.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 18, 2011)

hummerpoo said:


> In using the discription "chosen" Paul was not speaking of himself, he was speaking of the church at Thessalonica.  Who were they? Acts 17:4 tells us:
> "And some of them _(them refers to Jews)_ were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, along with a large number of the God- fearing Greeks and a number of the leading women."
> I don't know of anything telling us exactly who might have been saved in Thessalonica between that first three week period and the time of Paul's second writing but the opening of his first letter indicates that they were a strongly evangelistic church.
> 
> If God is not a respector of persons, has He then established two ordinances of salvation?  One with respect to Jews, another with respect to the Greeks, and perhaps another with respect to the women.  Maybe that's why Paul(My mistake...Luke) identified the three seperately, they were saved differently.



Ya know I can only speak for myself and my conviction.

Who does the gospel say can be saved?

If I am talking on this forum and I know or believe that you're a Christian, I myself say 'we' or 'us' and if we all are saved 'we' usn's are of the elect. Was Paul talking to the unsaved, too, are 'we' usn's talking to the unsaved here, of course we are but they are not part of the we.....we the saved know who 'we' and 'us' are.  

My pastor is not gonna teach, 'we' the saved and the rest of you is 'y'all', is he? Isn't a pastor or a teacher gonna say 'we'? We are at church and seeking Christ,  our pastor/teacher/Paul doesn't seperate the we and the y'all, it's always us, at least in my experience. And we know who the we are, at least I know I'm a we, but not insulting or browbeating the unsaved by leaving them out, which is just about the biggest thing that makes people run from church. I know I felt that way, when I had seperated myself from church and I went for a wedding or something, I just wanted to run out of there before lightening struck me, and yet I had been saved, but still ignorant of much of God's promises for the saved.


There's no way that Paul could know either, of who was and wasn't saved that he was talking to, could he? Did he address them all by name? Only the ones he knew were saved/of the elect.  He'd never meet all the people that congregated to hear that letter, how did he know how to rightly divide who was 'us/we' that were saved and the 'we/us' that wasn't saved, especially if he'd never talked to each one personally or baptized them or heard their repentence. And if Paul thought every one was chosen to be saved like I do, then he would say we, and that's still based on whosoever will believe and repent...we're all chosen to be saved, but we won't all be. Just like all the Jews who are chosen won't be saved....yet they are still chosen...right or wrong?

In the gospel it gives us all, all the sinners in the world a chance to believe and repent. No where does it name names. I don't care what Paul says, or what you think he means, the gospel says 'whosoever'.

You can go to revelation like the JWs and claim to be that elect, the 144,000, and I'm sure they've run from Gen. to Rev. finding scripture just to prove that one point.

You either believe what the gospel says or you don't.

Y'all wanna use Jonah as proof, name another person God put in a whale and sent off somewhere. Jonah WAS CHOSEN to do that and God made Jonah do His will. Doesn't mean that everyone from then on, God forced His will on them. I'm pretty sure at the age 12 I was called to be a missionary and it weighed heavy on my heart for years to do that, I never did, God didn't make me either. He sent someone else that was 'willing' instead, someone 'willing' to answer the calling.

I was saved based on the gospel, not what Paul did/said, or what Noah did with his daughters, or that Pharoah's heart was hardened, Pharoah refused to believe in Moses God, so Pharoah didn't accept God's grace and mercy, or what David did, good and bad.  David didn't will to kill his love rival? Didn't God say, thou shalt not kill? How could that have been God's will?

Y'all wanna take  20 scriptures out of the Bible and build a doctrine on that over 30,000 or so that say differently.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 19, 2011)

Just for a little perspective.

Jesus died a sacrificial death on the cross.  But, on the day Jesus died, or even the day He rose from the dead, no one had been saved thru Him!  Not yet.
The first living people saved by the blood of Jesus came in Acts 2.  And from that day forth until now, God has been adding to the church those who would be saved(also Acts 2).

The question:    "For whom did Christ die?"
He died for the ungodly, while they were still ungodly.
But only those who believe are every added into the kingdom of God.  Choice!


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## mtnwoman (Dec 19, 2011)

I agree Ronnie. Great way to put it.


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## common man (Dec 19, 2011)

Only those who had been appointed to eternal life believe.

Acts 13 verse 48.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 19, 2011)

common man said:


> Only those who had been appointed to eternal life believe.
> 
> Acts 13 verse 48.




I prefer it stated the way it is intended to be understood....    "Only those who believe are appointed to eternal life."

I think the Clarks's commentary best sums it up for me.

"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
Acts 13:48
As many as were ordained to eternal life believed - This text has been most pitifully misunderstood. Many suppose that it simply means that those in that assembly who were fore-ordained; or predestinated by God's decree, to eternal life, believed under the influence of that decree. Now, we should be careful to examine what a word means, before we attempt to fix its meaning. Whatever τεταγμενοι may mean, which is the word we translate ordained, it is neither προτεταγμενοι nor προορισμενοι which the apostle uses, but simply τεταγμενοι, which includes no idea of pre-ordination or pre-destination of any kind. And if it even did, it would be rather hazardous to say that all those who believed at this time were such as actually persevered unto the end, and were saved unto eternal life. But, leaving all these precarious matters, what does the word τεταγμενος mean? The verb ταττω or τασσω signifies to place, set, order, appoint, dispose; hence it has been considered here as implying the disposition or readiness of mind of several persons in the congregation, such as the religious proselytes mentioned Acts 13:43, who possessed the reverse of the disposition of those Jews who spake against those things, contradicting and blaspheming, Acts 13:45. Though the word in this place has been variously translated, yet, of all the meanings ever put on it, none agrees worse with its nature and known signification than that which represents it as intending those who were predestinated to eternal life: this is no meaning of the term, and should never be applied to it.................

From:     http://bible.cc/acts/13-48.htm

.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 19, 2011)

common man said:


> Only those who had been appointed to eternal life believe.
> 
> Acts 13 verse 48.



That is not what is said.

 King James says:" and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." Which means that because the Jews repudiated eternal life via Jesus, then to the gentiles who believed theirs' was that eternal life via Jesus.

According to my Jeruselem bible eternal life here means a new century or new era. The term with this definition was in common use with rabbis of that time.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 19, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Just for a little perspective.
> 
> Jesus died a sacrificial death on the cross.  But, on the day Jesus died, or even the day He rose from the dead, no one had been saved thru Him!  Not yet.
> The first living people saved by the blood of Jesus came in Acts 2.  And from that day forth until now, God has been adding to the church those who would be saved(also Acts 2).
> ...




Can other than the blood save? Luke 10:20 "Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven." This Jesus said to the seventy, sometime before calvary.

And this: Luke 10:28 And He said to him, "You have answered correctly; do this and you shall live."


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## Ronnie T (Dec 19, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Can other than the blood save? Luke 10:20 "Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven." This Jesus said to the seventy, sometime before calvary.
> 
> And this: Luke 10:28 And He said to him, "You have answered correctly; do this and you shall live."



Pages could be written concerning these two (and other) verses that were spoken to individuals or groups by Jesus while He taught and touched lives during His physical presence here.   But those statements of His do not in any way interrupt the necessity of His blood to all of us today.  And today, there's only one thing that seperates a person from that atoneing blood.
You know what it is.


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## hummerpoo (Dec 19, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> I prefer it stated the way it is intended to be understood....    "Only those who believe are appointed to eternal life."
> 
> I think the Clarks's commentary best sums it up for me.
> 
> ...



Just as consulting more than one translation of the Bible is usually beneficial, multiple commentaries usually gives a broader view.  With that in mind, and not recalling having investigated this particular verse, I decided to consult my usual sources.  Next alphabetically after Adam Clark was Barnes.  I was impressed by Barnes' Bible centered approach, as opposed to Clark's shallower sourcing, but I sure hope the rest are a little more compact than those two.
__________________________________________
Acts 13:48â€©When the Gentiles heard this—Heard that the gospel was to be preached to them. The doctrine of the Jews had been that salvation was confined to themselves. The Gentiles rejoiced that from the mouths of Jews themselves they now heard a different doctrine.â€©They glorified the word of the Lord—They honored it as a message from God; they recognized and received it as the Word of God. The expression conveys the idea of praise on account of it, and of reverence for the message as the Word of God.â€©And as many as were ordained—Î¿Ì”Ì�ÏƒÎ¿Î¹ Î·Ì“Í‚ÏƒÎ±Î½ Ï„ÎµÏ„Î±Î³Î¼ÎµÌ�Î½Î¿Î¹  hosoi eÌ„san tetagmenoi. Syriac, “Who were destined,” or constituted. Vulgate, “As many as were foreordained (quotquot erant praeordinati) to eternal life believed.” There has been much difference of opinion in regard to this expression. One class of commentators has supposed that it refers to the doctrine of election—to God’s ordaining people to eternal life, and another class to their being disposed themselves to embrace the gospel—to those among them who did not reject and despise the gospel, but who were disposed and inclined to embrace it. The main inquiry is, what is the meaning of the word rendered “ordained”? The word is used only eight times in the New Testament: Matt. 28:16, “Into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them”; that is, previously appointed—before his death; Luke 7:8, “For I also am a man set under authority”; appointed, or designated as a soldier, to be under the authority of another; Acts 15:2, “They determined that Paul and Barnabas, etc., should go to Jerusalem”; Acts 22:10, “It shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do”; Acts 23:23, “And when they appointed him a day,” etc.: Rom. 13:1, “the powers that be are ordained of God; 1 Cor. 16:15, They have addicted themselves to the ministry of saints.” The word Ï„Î±Ì�ÏƒÏƒÏ‰  tassoÌ„, properly means “to place”—that is, to place in a certain rank or order. Its meaning is derived from arranging or disposing a body of soldiers in regular military order. In the places which have been mentioned above, the word is used to denote the following things:â€©(1) To command, or to designate, Matt. 28:16; Acts 22:10; 28:23.â€©(2) to institute, constitute, or appoint, Rom. 13:1; compare 2 Sam. 8:11; 1 Sam. 22:7.â€©(3) to determine, to take counsel, to resolve, Acts 15:2.â€©(4) to subject to the authority of another, Luke 7:8.â€©(5) to addict to; to devote to, 1 Cor. 16:15. The meaning may be thus expressed:â€©(1) The word is never used to denote an internal disposition or inclination arising from one’s own self. It does not mean that they disposed themselves to embrace eternal life.â€©(2) it has uniformly the notion of an ordering, disposing, or arranging from without; that is, from some other source than the individual himself; as of a soldier, who is arranged or classified according to the will of the proper officer. In relation to these persons it means, therefore, that they were disposed or inclined to this from some other source than themselves.â€©(3) it does not properly refer to an eternal decree, or directly to the doctrine of election—though that may be inferred from it; but it refers to their being then in fact disposed to embrace eternal life. They were then inclined by an influence from without themselves, or so disposed as to embrace eternal life. That this was done by the influence of the Holy Spirit is clear from all parts of the New Testament, :nono::nono::nono:  _(that's Titus)_3:5-6; John 1:13. It was not a disposition or arrangement originating with themselves, but with God.â€©(4) this implies the doctrine of election. It was, in fact, that doctrine expressed in an act. It was nothing but God’s disposing them to embrace eternal life. And that he does this according to a plan in his own mind a plan which is unchangeable as he himself is unchangeable is clear from the Scriptures. Compare Acts 18:10; Rom. 8:28-30; 9:15-16, 21, 23; Eph. 1:4-5, 11. The meaning may be expressed in few words—who were then disposed, and in good earnest determined, to embrace eternal life, by the operation of the grace of God upon their hearts.â€©


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## jmharris23 (Dec 19, 2011)

My question is this: Does a man/woman "choose" God apart from God drawing them to Him?


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## gordon 2 (Dec 19, 2011)

jmharris23 said:


> My question is this: Does a man/woman "choose" God apart from God drawing them to Him?



Your question is interesting. All people are spiritual. So in that sense God draws us yes. But it is one thing to know that there is a God or Gods that call's us, and perhaps plots our destinies, and another to know God. To know God, to know Jesus, we walk up in faith, we seek  after repentance and decipleship. These we chose.

But yes I would say without going into scripture ( which I don't what to do) that all are called by God.


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## hummerpoo (Dec 19, 2011)

jmharris23 said:


> My question is this: Does a man/woman "choose" God apart from God drawing them to Him?



John 6:44, Jer 31:3


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## mtnwoman (Dec 19, 2011)

jmharris23 said:


> My question is this: Does a man/woman "choose" God apart from God drawing them to Him?



No.

I believe God draws everyone, but only some will choose to respond, and believe and repent. .


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## mtnwoman (Dec 19, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Your question is interesting. All people are spiritual. So in that sense God draws us yes. But it is one thing to know that there is a God or Gods that call's us, and perhaps plots our destinies, and another to know God. To know God, to know Jesus, we walk up in faith, we seek  after repentance and decipleship. These we chose.
> 
> But yes I would say without going into scripture ( which I don't what to do) that all are called by God.



I agree!


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## mtnwoman (Dec 19, 2011)

common man said:


> Only those who had been appointed to eternal life believe.



Ok, so why are we still here? Couldn't we just cut the chase and go on to glory? If anyone I preach the gospel to, is already predestined to believe, then what is my point?  They are saved already...correct?
Couldn't I just be 'fishin' for fish.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 19, 2011)

In John 6 Jesus was speaking to Jews who would not accept Him.

John 6:41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?” 
43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”


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## G5BONECRUSHER (Dec 19, 2011)

hummerpoo said:


> John 6:44, Jer 31:3



Romans 2:4 Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that *God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?*

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, *will draw all people to myself.* (Jesus and the Father are One)


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## mtnwoman (Dec 19, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> In John 6 Jesus was speaking to Jews who would not accept Him.
> 
> John 6:41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”
> 43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”



Amen!!

Joy to the world!! Peace on earth!! that applies to all men who will receive it.


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## G5BONECRUSHER (Dec 19, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> If anyone I preach the gospel to, is already predestined to believe, then what is my point?



This is yet another place where this theology of "election" breaks down.

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but *whoever does not believe is condemned already*, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

If the scripture above is true (and it is)... 

You cannot be predestined to believe. Either you believe and are not condemned, or don't believe and are condemned already.  One cannot be predestined and condemned already at the same time.


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## hummerpoo (Dec 19, 2011)

30.  So they said to Him, "What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform?
 31.  "Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, 'HE GAVE THEM BREAD OUT OF HEAVEN TO EAT.' "
 32.  Jesus then said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven.
 33.  "For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world."
 34.  Then they said to Him, "Lord, always give us this bread."
 35.  Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
 36.  "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.
 37.  [COLOR="Navy[COLOR="Red"]"]"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me,[/COLOR] and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
 38.  "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
 39.  "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.[/COLOR] 40.  "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."


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## hummerpoo (Dec 19, 2011)

Once again, nobody has convinced anybody of anything.  God The Father starts it all ... right.  
Should have said "In the beginning God ..."  Surely we can agree on that one.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 20, 2011)

G5BONECRUSHER said:


> This is yet another place where this theology of "election" breaks down.
> 
> John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but *whoever does not believe is condemned already*, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
> 
> ...



Great point!

I believe we are all condemned to start with(already) before we believe and repent. The ones who do believe and repent are saved, the ones who don't are still (already)condemened. The only way out of that condemnation is to believe and repent. God says He doesn't chose for anyone (and that means anyone) to perish, but they will, if they don't believe and repent.


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## texwilliams (Dec 20, 2011)

I noticed their was some earlier discussion about free will and wanting some scripture reference.  This will help with free will....

The sin which Adam committed that brought spiritual death to him, a spiritual death that spread to all men, was not some minor blemish on his character. This sin brought a transformation of Adam’s nature that would cause him to be spiritually unable to respond to God. This same dynamic is also at work in all those who are Adam’s posterity. For all who died in Adam, the sin that brought spiritual death marred and corrupted our natures. But how; how are our natures different now from when Adam was first created? What is it about fallen nature that caused God to tell Adam he was dead and causes God to say that we are dead; totally unable to respond to Him? Let us now explore the manifestations of a spiritually dead man.
a. Our hearts are evil continually
(Gen 6:5; 8:21; Jer 17:9)
Dynamically, this spiritual death affected our hearts; it affects who we are in our nature. In the Hebrew language, the “heart” represents the total man; mind, will and emotions. In Genesis 6:5 and Genesis 8:21, God declares that “every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” God said “every intent of the heart is evil continually”! Or, to say it another way, there is never a time when the heart of man is not evil; it continues on is this wretched state for the duration of his life. Not only is it continually evil, Jeremiah declares that the heart (total being) is desperate for wickedness (Jer 17:9). With broad brush strokes, the Scriptures say that our hearts are now “only” evil. Once, mankind had a good, upright, holy nature but now our very nature is “only evil continually”.
b. Our fallen nature hates spiritual light 
(Is 64:7; Jn 3:19, 20; Rom 3:11, 18)
Because our hearts are set on evil continually, Christ tells Nicodemus in John 3:19, 20 that natural men hate spiritual light (who is Christ) and love spiritual darkness, therefore they run from spiritual light (who is Christ) and seek out spiritual darkness. Christ even gives the reason that natural men run from the light; “lest his deeds should be exposed” (Jn 3:20). The deepest reason that men will not bring themselves into the light of Christ is because they do not want Him to expose their evil deeds. This implies either that natural men are totally ashamed of what they are in their sin compared to Christ in His holiness, or implies that men have a deep seated love and appetite for what is evil.
Because no one desires to be reconciled with God, Isaiah declares that no one “arouses himself to take hold” of God (Is 64:7). Our deep seated love for evil and hatred for what is spiritually good always wins the day in our hearts and prevents us from bringing ourselves close to Christ. 
c. Our fallen nature places us in captivity to Sin and Satan 
(Jn 8:34; Rom 6:16-23; 2 Tim 2:25, 26; Eph 2:1-3)
This absolute hatred of what is spiritually good and deep seated desire for what is evil places us in a precarious situation. Because our hearts are inclined towards what is vile and evil, the Scriptures say that we are slaves to what is evil; “Truly, Truly I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin” (Jn 8:34). We are not slaves by outward compulsion, but slaves who are in voluntary bondage; “for just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness…” (Rom 6:19). As horrendous as it may sound, ultimately the love for what is evil that places us into voluntary bondage to sin also has the terrible consequence of placing us in bondage to Satan as Paul explains to Timothy. Paul is encouraging Timothy on how to deal with opposition to his teachings of the gospel and speaks of the opposition this way; “with gentleness correct[ing] those who are in opposition if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will” (2 Tim 2:25, 26). When someone is held captive against their will, it is understood that they do not like being a prisoner and want freedom from their confinement. However, when someone is a slave to something voluntarily, we understand that this one loves his cell and his confinement is not tortuous, but delightful. Thus, it is through our loves for sin and evil that makes us a slave to it; voluntary bondage!
d. Our fallen nature blinds us to spiritual things 
(1 Cor 2:14; 2 Cor 4:3, 4; Eph 4:18)
Another horrific effect that sin has on our natures is that it corrupts our ability to understand spiritual truth. The mind becomes unable to see the beauty and glory of doctrinal precepts. Paul describes the condition this way; “but the natural man [the one born of Adam] does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised” (1 Cor 2:14). Our nature has become so corrupt that our minds now do not possess the natural ability to understand the truths that are of God. In fact, Paul says that spiritual truth is only “foolishness” to the “natural man”. Although any man can have raw knowledge in his mind, yet the natural man does not possess the ability to see the glory of Christ in what he knows. In his description of the “gentiles”, or the lost world, Paul says that they “walk, in the futility of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God, because of their ignorance that is in them…” (Eph 4:18). Yet then he gives the deepest root of this darkened understanding and ignorance, “because of the hardness of their heart”. Natural man cannot understand the things of God because they are foolish to him, thus he is darkened in his understanding and ignorant; all flowing from his hardness of heart and unwillingness to submit himself to the truths of God. The fallen heart corrupts the mind, keeping it from the understanding of divine beauty.
Taking this to another level, not only are we naturally incapable of understanding spiritual truth, but Satan has an active hand in preventing us from seeing the gospel of Christ so that our souls may be saved. “And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God” (2 Cor 4:3, 4). The enemy of the light has an active hand in keeping the fallen man from truly seeing the light of Christ and being reconciled to God through Him.
e. Our fallen nature affects our ability to obey God’s commands (Rom 8:6, 7)
Our hearts are evil continually thus we hate spiritual light and run from it so that our sinful deeds will not be exposed. Because we always run from spiritual light, we are held captive as voluntary slaves to our sin and to Satan. We have such an inward hatred for the things of God that our hardness of heart keeps us ignorant to spiritual truth and aided by the workings of Satan, we are blind to the gospel of Christ. All of this culminates in a terrible effect on us; we cannot obey what God commands of us. Paul tells us in Romans 8:6-8 that those who are in our natural condition cannot act in obedience to Him; “For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile towards God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God”. Ultimately, Paul tells us that the natural man whose mind is set on the flesh finds himself in a position to where he can never obey the commands of God.
4. How far we have fallen 
This is quite a remarkable change from Adam’s created nature. Prior to the fall, Adam was righteous, holy, had true knowledge and communed with God. Once Adam disobeyed and sin entered the world, it affected him at the core within he very nature; it destroyed him. Because his nature was passed down through his progeny we are now born into a state that hates God and runs from Him, cannot understand spiritual truth because of our hardness of heart and are in hopeless bondage to sin and the Enemy. Consequently, according to Paul, we are now the objects of God’s eternal wrath and deserve nothing less. We have all sinned and disobeyed God, thus the “wages of our sin is death” (Rom 6:23). 
5. The Ramifications of Spiritual Deadness (Matt 19:26; Jn 6:63) 
All of these biblical assessments of who we are bring about a terrible ramification. If the Scriptures paint us as totally corrupt and unable to respond to God, then how can men be saved from the wrath of God “revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men” (Rom 1:18)? We have been given the offer of reconciliation with God through faith in the work of Christ, but how can we believe in such a promise of eternal life if the Scriptures say that we will not come?
a. Free will…really?
It might be a good time to have a small discussion of free will because many will retreat to the idea that we can obey the commands of God to place our faith in Christ due to our free will. The free will advocates would say something to the effect of “God has given us a will and we can will ourselves to place our faith in Christ; because the command to obey implies the ability of our will to obey that very command”. So, let’s examine this argument to see if our wills are as free as some would proclaim that they are.
i. No one believes in a truly “free will”
Although the free will argument may seem logical and solve the dilemma, the problem is that no one has a will that is not bound by something. For example, a prisoner in jail cannot will himself out no matter how hard he tried. No one can simply will to sprout wings and fly no matter how hard they tried. No one can turn themselves into a banana no matter how much they try through their will. Simply on the surface, we see that everyone’s will is bound by at least the physical realm so that there are things that we cannot exert our will to produce. All men realize that their will is limited in what it cann accomplish.

ii. Our will is bound by what we desire
The will that we posses is, in fact, bound by something within us; our desires. Our inward desires are what move us to will something so that one cannot will himself to do what do doesn’t desire. Let me illustrate. If I walked to the refrigerator, opened it and gazed inside and saw a piece of cake and a juicy steak; which one would I eat? You might answer whichever one you wanted, and you would be correct. If I have just eaten a good supper and now wanted something for dessert, then I would not will to eat the steak, but the piece of cake. My inward desire for the sweets would move my will to choose the cake and eat it. However, if I was famished and had not eaten supper yet and was craving something very filling, I would probably pick the steak. Once again, my inward desire for something more filling that cake moved my will to choose the cake. This one principle can answer a myriad of questions as to why people do what they do. Why does a father and husband stay in a job that he hates all of his life? Because his greatest desire is to provide for his family, thus he exerts his will to stay in that hated job. Why do people commit suicide? Because they have concluded in their minds that death is more desirable than life, thus that inward desire for sweet relieve moves their will to take their own lives. Examine yourselves and think on this principle and see if what we truly desire is the motivation for what you empower your will to do. Our so called “free will” is actually in bondage to our very own desires; there is no such thing as a truly “free” will.
iii. Desires bent on evil will produce a will bent on evil
So if our wills are truly controlled by our greatest desire, and the Scriptures say that we hate spiritual light (Jn 3:19, 20) and only desire what is evil (Gen 6:5; 8:21), how can we ever will ourselves to chose what we truly hate? Augustine said “we are free to choose what we like, but we are not free to like what we ought to like”. If the driving force of our fallen will is a desire for what is contrary to God, then we can never will ourselves to accept God’s offer of salvation through faith in Christ. Theodore Beza said that our nature is so wicked that not only would we deny God’s offer of Christ, but will in fact scoff at it with contempt. A will that is controlled by evil desires will only produce a will that chooses evil…“continually” (Gen 6:5).

Our fallen, dead state places us in a position where we do not desire what is spiritually good, and thus will not choose to come to Christ through faith. In light of the Scriptures, no one has the ability to come because mankind does not desire to come. We, as natural men and women are perfectly satisfied in our spiritually dead state and want nothing of the gospel for we live “in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind” (Eph 2:3) So I ask again, how can a man be saved from the wrath of God that abides over them? How can a man meet the condition of salvation (faith)?


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## G5BONECRUSHER (Dec 20, 2011)

texwilliams said:


> So I ask again, how can a man be saved from the wrath of God that abides over them?
> 
> John 6:44 (ESV)
> 44 No one can come to me unless the* Father who sent me draws him*. And I will raise him up on the last day.
> ...




I saw a really good Case for total depravity in your post but no biblical evidence that God doesn't give us the ability to recognize our sin in the Holy Spirit and the power to choose him through His Gosple.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 20, 2011)

G5BONECRUSHER said:


> I saw a really good Case for total depravity in your post but no biblical evidence that God doesn't give us the ability to recognize our sin in the Holy Spirit and the power to choose him through His Gosple.



I was wondering that, too.

If we are so lost and depraved how do any of us come to believe and repent for our sins. God makes us? Why didn't He just make us before all that suffering on the cross.

On our part, first comes belief and then we repent and then we are saved.

We are not chosen/saved first, then God makes us believe and repent? I'm pretty sure the cross could've been avoided if God chose to make us believe. So He let His son die for something that was already accomplished before the foundation of the world...alrighty then.


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## jmharris23 (Dec 21, 2011)

The main caution I'd like to give in this discussion is to be careful in ascribing your own idea of fairness and sensibilities to a Holy God.

To make a human argument of " that doesn't make sense" or " I wouldn't have done it that way" or "that's not fair" doesn't seem to hold much water when placed in front of a Holy God


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## ambush80 (Dec 21, 2011)

jmharris23 said:


> The main caution I'd like to give in this discussion is to be careful in ascribing your own idea of fairness and sensibilities to a Holy God.
> 
> To make a human argument of " that doesn't make sense" or " I wouldn't have done it that way" or "that's not fair" doesn't seem to hold much water when placed in front of a Holy God



That's what I'm sayin'.


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## jmharris23 (Dec 21, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> That's what I'm sayin'.



Ha! When I typed that out I thought to myself, "I bet ambush will really like this statement."


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## gemcgrew (Dec 21, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> If we are so lost and depraved how do any of us come to believe and repent for our sins. God makes us?



"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." (Acts 13:48)

"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." (John 10:26)


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## mtnwoman (Dec 21, 2011)

jmharris23 said:


> The main caution I'd like to give in this discussion is to be careful in ascribing your own idea of fairness and sensibilities to a Holy God.
> 
> To make a human argument of " that doesn't make sense" or " I wouldn't have done it that way" or "that's not fair" doesn't seem to hold much water when placed in front of a Holy God



Thanks!
I'm guilty!
I'll watch it.


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## G5BONECRUSHER (Dec 21, 2011)

jmharris23 said:


> The main caution I'd like to give in this discussion is to be careful in ascribing your own idea of fairness and sensibilities to a Holy God.
> 
> To make a human argument of " that doesn't make sense" or " I wouldn't have done it that way" or "that's not fair" doesn't seem to hold much water when placed in front of a Holy God



I completely agree


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## mtnwoman (Dec 21, 2011)

gemcgrew said:


> "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." (Acts 13:48)
> 
> "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." (John 10:26)




Same book and chapter.
John 10:16
King James Version (KJV)


 16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Who was Jesus talking about here? I believe He's telling the Jews that He is talking to in this chapter, that there is another group, that will also be brought in.... not only they the chosen Jews, but other sheep, that's us, the unchosen until  we believe and repent and are grafted into the fold by adoption.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 21, 2011)

Gordon, I love your new avatar. I always love to see what people look like that I'm in cahoots with...lol.

Merry Christmas my friend!


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## gemcgrew (Dec 21, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> 16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
> 
> Who was Jesus talking about here?



The elect scattered about that have not yet been brought in to the fold. All who were given to him in the everlasting
covenant, redeemed by him at Calvary, called by his Spirit, and all for whom he has made intercession shall be with him. There shall be one fold and one Shepherd. And they shall be one. Not one shall perish.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 22, 2011)

gemcgrew said:


> The elect scattered about that have not yet been brought in to the fold.*This being the Jews, blinded and scattered about the earth.* All who were given to him in the everlasting
> covenant,*God's promise to Abraham* redeemed by him at Calvary, called by his Spirit, and all for whom he has made intercession shall be with him.*Everyone who is not a Jew.* There shall be one fold and one Shepherd. And they shall be one. Not one shall perish.*Yes, once saved, always saved*



Peace


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