# Quality dog food



## HuntDawg (Feb 15, 2014)

I have a 3 year old yellow female lab. She has developed an allergy. Skin itches and is red. Indoor dog, but hunts with me. I am currently feeding her Purina large breed lamb and rice. I was wondering if a higher quality food might help. I started her on Omega 3 about 8 weeks ago. I have been told that some indoor dogs will developed allergies as they get older and the winter season can make the itching worse due to dry skin from the heat.

Am I thinking too much? Should she be on a higher quality food regardless?


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## mbaker8686 (Feb 15, 2014)

I worked at a feed store for a few years.  I always encouraged my customers to feed their dogs a dog food without corn.  Usually the main allergy that dogs can have is to corn.  The tractor supply brand "4Health" is affordable and offers great additives with no corn.  They also offer a new feed that has no grain at all, only meat and vegetables.  When you think about it, dogs never would have had the opportunity to eat anything other than meat and vegetables if we had not domesticated them.  They would not be eating corn, rice, wheat, ect.  Also if you get away from corn, which is generally a filler, the dog will poop less and eat less which saves time and money.


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## Joe Overby (Feb 15, 2014)

4 health is made by diamond. Diamond killed HUNDREDS of dogs with. Do what tu want but I won't support companies that do business that way.
As far as allergies go. Yes, some older dogs can develop allergies to food as they get older. But, the only way to figure out what it is your dog is allergic to is to put it on a food trial on a soy diet. This can be accomplished by feeding Purina h/a. This needs to be done for 6-10 weeks. Then slowly start adding one thing at a time to their diet until a reaction occurs. Then simply find a food without that ingredient. My old dog developed an allergy to chicken. Some develop allergies to grains. Problem is this....yes you can buy a chicken free or grain free food from a box store in a multitude of brands but there is NO guarantee that the bag you just bought wasn't run on the same line as a food with a contaminent wasn't just run on. So, you wind up at the vet spending $96 for 23 lbs of whatever prescription fits the bill. Good luck. Been there, done that..got the T-shirt. 10 g's at uga in one year for ear infections due to a chicken allergy.


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## brownceluse (Feb 15, 2014)

Joe Overby said:


> 4 health is made by diamond. Diamond killed HUNDREDS of dogs. Do what tu want but I won't support companies that do business that way.
> As far as allergies go. Yes, some older dogs can develop allergies to food as they get older. But, the only way to figure out what it is your dog is allergic to is to put it on a food trial on a soy diet. This can be accomplished by feeding Purina h/a. This needs to be done for 6-10 weeks. Then slowly start adding one thing at a time to their diet until a reaction occurs. Then simply find a food without that ingredient. My old dog developed an allergy to chicken. Some develop allergies to grains. Problem is this....yes you can buy a chicken free or grain free food from a box store in a multitude of brands but there is NO guarantee that the bag you just bought wasn't run on the same line as a food with a contaminent wasn't just run on. So, you wind up at the vet spending $96 for 23 lbs of whatever prescription fits the bill. Good luck. Been there, done that..got the T-shirt. 10 g's at uga in one year for ear infections due to a chicken allergy.



Dang it man!


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## jerry russell (Feb 15, 2014)

I had a situation close to you with a dog (4 year old lab) that always seemed to be itching.  I weaned him off of purina and moved him to Diamond with about 26% protein. I also started him on a single fish oil tablet per day. I really can't say which, if not both did the job but the difference is dramatic. My 12 year old boxer was looking like a mangy cur. Now he has a beautiful coat. No itching whatsoever and they consume a lot less food when the fillers are not there.   Getting grains out of their diet makes a big difference.


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## Joe Overby (Feb 15, 2014)

brownceluse said:


> Dang it man!



Tell me about it...4 ruptured eardrums later he is deaf as a stone....still have to buy dog food down there...good thing he don't eat much!! I wasn't kidding about $90+ a bag for 23 lbs of "special" food.


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## grouper throat (Feb 15, 2014)

I like diamond's puppy food but never tried their adult food.


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## brownceluse (Feb 15, 2014)

Joe Overby said:


> Tell me about it...4 ruptured eardrums later he is deaf as a stone....still have to buy dog food down there...good thing he don't eat much!! I wasn't kidding about $90+ a bag for 23 lbs of "special" food.



Anotherdang it man....


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## mbaker8686 (Feb 17, 2014)

Joe Overby said:


> 4 health is made by diamond. Diamond killed HUNDREDS of dogs. Do what tu want but I won't support companies that do business that way.
> As far as allergies go. Yes, some older dogs can develop allergies to food as they get older. But, the only way to figure out what it is your dog is allergic to is to put it on a food trial on a soy diet. This can be accomplished by feeding Purina h/a. This needs to be done for 6-10 weeks. Then slowly start adding one thing at a time to their diet until a reaction occurs. Then simply find a food without that ingredient. My old dog developed an allergy to chicken. Some develop allergies to grains. Problem is this....yes you can buy a chicken free or grain free food from a box store in a multitude of brands but there is NO guarantee that the bag you just bought wasn't run on the same line as a food with a contaminent wasn't just run on. So, you wind up at the vet spending $96 for 23 lbs of whatever prescription fits the bill. Good luck. Been there, done that..got the T-shirt. 10 g's at uga in one year for ear infections due to a chicken allergy.



Well actually, they did have remorse, paid millions of dollars in retribution, and now their facilities are better and cleaner than ever.  

http://www.recalledpetfoodsettlement.com/


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## Joe Overby (Feb 17, 2014)

I suggest you talk to some of the deceased pets owners. I happen to know a handful of them. One conversation will change your tune.


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## mbaker8686 (Feb 17, 2014)

I generally choose to not argue on forums and I am not going to start here.  Just merely going to say that I feed it, I have fed it for the last 5 years, and I will continue to feed it.  My dog has allergy problems and his allergies were immediately alleviated and his coat quality changed within the first few months.  I recommended "4Health" to many different customers and had no qualms about it even considering the company's past.  

Just my opinion, take of it what you will.


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## HuntDawg (Feb 17, 2014)

Thanks for all the replies.  Does anyone know much about Dr. Tim's Dog Food?  I have done some research, and it seems to be a great product.


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## mschlapa (Feb 17, 2014)

HuntDawg said:


> Thanks for all the replies.  Does anyone know much about Dr. Tim's Dog Food?  I have done some research, and it seems to be a great product.



I know several people that have been feeding it and are extremely pleased with it. We have been feeding Nutri-Source for a few years now and it has been great too.


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## Joe Overby (Feb 17, 2014)

mbaker8686 said:


> I generally choose to not argue on forums and I am not going to start here.  Just merely going to say that I feed it, I have fed it for the last 5 years, and I will continue to feed it.  My dog has allergy problems and his allergies were immediately alleviated and his coat quality changed within the first few months.  I recommended "4Health" to many different customers and had no qualms about it even considering the company's past.
> 
> Just my opinion, take of it what you will.


Its not an argument. You can gladly feed your dog whatever you'd like...I'll do the same. Just remember, you own what you condone.


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## waterdogs (Feb 18, 2014)

If I remember correctly Diamond had a recall last year as well of the other brands they make.  No diamond for me, or any other products they make


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## gunslinger33 (Feb 19, 2014)

Thanks Joe. I had no idea Diamond made 4Health. I am currently feeding my puppy 4Health. I will be switching foods. Risk is not worth it when there are plenty of other options out there.


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## Joe Overby (Feb 19, 2014)

gunslinger33 said:


> Thanks Joe. I had no idea Diamond made 4Health. I am currently feeding my puppy 4Health. I will be switching foods. Risk is not worth it when there are plenty of other options out there.


Check out Victor and Dr Tims. MUCH better food and ZERO recalls...EVER...


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## Doc Olly (Feb 19, 2014)

Hello everyone,
I often see threads like this on different hunting websites all over.  The confusion and myths about diet can be both frustrating and confusing.  I wanted to offer my 0.02 cents from a vets point of view. Fellas this comes from a humble place, so I mean no harm.

First let's start with all of the recalls.  Believe it or not, recalls are a good thing. It means that the pet food industry is now being regulated or closely monitored;therefore, more quality products should be available.  The 3 main pet food regulators are FDA, USDA and AAFCO. AAFCO is the Association of American Feed Control Officials.  To me AAFCO is THE most important of all!

AAFCO does feeding trials on ALL commercial foods.  On the back of each bag/can of dog food there is an AAFCO statement.  The statement that you want is Nutritional Adequacy Statement.  And that must say "complete and balanced" If your food says that , then by golly it is legit!  If that AAFCO label says formulated to meet, then it has either not been through a feeding trial or did not pass an AAFCO feeding trial.  Also, you must look to see if the label says formulated to meet all stages of life. 

Some other things to look for does the maker have a full time nutritionist, it's own R& D department, it's own manufacturing plant and internal quality control standards.  I know, that to many of us we don't look at labels like that for our own food but these are the facts from vet school.

Now, on to the things that "don't matter".  Now some of these things may hurt peoples feelings and I do understand but it's al about the "perception", so just bear with me.

Guaranteed analysis, ingredients, designator are NOT important. All of these vary. Foe example, all ingredients are listed by weight. So just because rabbit is the first ingredient does not mean squat. It just means that there is rabbit in the food with added water weight which makes it appear VERY IMPORTANT, but it's not. Just slick advertising at it's best.

 Also beware of terms like by products, human grade, grain free, holistic, and premium. These are all marketing tools to get your attention. These terms are not regulated by AAFCO or anyone else.

For example, I love when people/clients tell me that their dog should be eating a raw meat diet because that's what they ate in the wild.     Show me in history where there was a pack of fat, wild pugs hunting down a fawn and I will give you my next paycheck!

Also, grains are not bad. In fact, dogs utilize and digest grains very well. Plain and simple they are a carb and are NOT a common cause of allergies or obesity like so many people think.

So there ya have it fellars, I hope this helps. Again, I was not trying to step on anyones toes. The good lord blessed me to follow my dream to become a vet and if I can help, I always try to. I own no dog food company so there is no money in this for me.
Good luck,
Doc Olly


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## Doc Olly (Feb 19, 2014)

For those that want a second opinion

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...hYGwAg&usg=AFQjCNEM0sMI2ZBnEkdUoQ4dXccGmQOGJQ


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## Joe Overby (Feb 20, 2014)

So you say grains are NOT a common cause of allergy and UGA does?? Who should we listen to?? Not being argumentative at all...one vet says one thing, another says the opposite, personal experience disproves both...who are we supposed to listen to?? 
Recalls are NOT a good thing. Means poor QC was there to begin with. 
Ever see a coyote grazing in a wheat field?
Corn is undigestable.UNDIGESTABLE. its merely a filler. When a dog foods second ingredient is corn you are feeding filler. Tell me again how that's healthy for your dog?


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## gunslinger33 (Feb 20, 2014)

Joe found Voctor not far from me and it's about the same price per lb as 4Health


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## Joe Overby (Feb 20, 2014)

I like the 24/20. But, the 26/18 ain't bad either. I'm really just trying to stay away from 30% protein running through their kidneys. So far have been really impressed all the way around with Victors 24/20...been on it almost a year now.


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## JustUs4All (Feb 20, 2014)

Corn in its natural kernel state is nearly impossible for dogs to digest, but it is also nearly impossible for people to digest.  For people and for dogs corn is ground up and cooked.  This makes it digestible for both.  It is used in dog food because it is one of the most inexpensive sources of calories and because it's cooked properties make it great for forming into kibble.  

This is neither good nor bad, it just is.  There are better ingredients that can be used to make dogfood, but there are many dogs that are fed only because their owners can afford the food because the expense of the product is reduced by the use of corn.

My grandmother, rest her soul, fed her dogs table scraps supplemented by what she called dog bread.  It was cornbread cooked in a griddle on the top of her Home Comfort wood cook stove.   Her dogs did well on it and I probably would have too If she had added a little salt to it.

Corn is probably much less the cause of allergies than other ingredients.  A couple of studies have placed the incidence at between 3 and 14% of all food allergies in dogs are caused by corn.  Some of those were undoubtedly caused by the contaminants on the corn.

There is a pretty good source of information on dog food that includes analysis and reviews by brand at dogfoodadvisor.com.  The coverage seems unbiased, see the "about" tab at the top of each page and the "disclosures" control at the bottom.  The fellow who does that site gets a referral fee from a place called chewy.com.  That is a pretty good site for getting good food at reasonable prices, no sales tax in GA and free shipping over certain minimums.

I am not affiliated with either, but we use chewy.com to order food in bulk for our dozen dogs and fosters.


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## gunslinger33 (Feb 20, 2014)

Puppy is 30/20 which is about the same ratio I have beem feeding. I know you haver labs and I have a DK. Should I reduce his protien amount after a year , relative to how much he is hunting?


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## Doc Olly (Feb 20, 2014)

Mr. Overby, again, I come from a humble place.
I think UGA is a great school and I would never disagree with a specialist because I'm just a general practice vet.
With that bring said, if your dog was allergy tested and found to be allergic to grains or corns then I stand corrected. If there was no allergy test God only knows.
No I have never seen a coyote eating on a wheat field. I do know that coyotes eat rabbits which eat corns and grains ;therefore, indirectly they are linked.
I think justis4all addressed the corn issue. I hope all of your questions and concerns were addressed.  
Finally, I meant no harm. I was just passing on some information that I very recently learned. I attended the Western Veterinary Conference and this information was presented in a lecture form. The lecturer was a board certified veterinary nutritionist.
All in all, feed what works best for you. Not everyone can afford an allergy test. My wife and I are both vets and we can't afford an allergy test for a dog right now!
If your dog likes the taste, if his or her poop is regular and solid and the price ain't to bad go for it.
I was just trying to help.


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## Joe Overby (Feb 20, 2014)

Food trial was conducted. My personal dog is allergic to chicken.
My point of the coyote grazing in a wheat field was to indirectly make the point that in the wild a dogs diet is not primarily grains. Yes, the first thing dogs eat out of whatever it is that is dead is the guts. Why?? The vitamins and proteins contained in the organs. NOT the leftover/partially digested grains left inbtje digestive tract.
Gunslinger, I've been feeding the 24/20 to puppies for 8 months now...I LIKE it. No need for the 30/20. The carb/calorie/ general makeup of the 24/20 is different than the 30/20...I feel yje dogs just do better on it.
Justus...dogfoodadvisor is not unbiased. Everybody is getting paid by somebody. You want independent, unbiased research?? Start calling companies..I've got $10 says you get hung up on more than you get answers. Point is...dog food companies dont want you to know whats in their food...because most of the bigger companies are owned by human product companies(proctor and gamble, Johnson and Johnson etc...) and why is this?? So they have somewhere to put their waste.


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## Joe Overby (Feb 20, 2014)

Doc, don't feel singled out. Because of the money I've spent at the university over the last 6 years I've become quite educated in dog food. Couple that with first hand feeding experience of over a dozen different foods at both my personal professional kennel operation and the USMC IDD bomb detection dog program and I've got a lot of background in the food arena. I'm not picking on you I just don't think the nutritionist you listened to is as educated as he/she would like to think.


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## Doc Olly (Feb 20, 2014)

Joe Overby said:


> Doc, don't feel singled out. Because of the money I've spent at the university over the last 6 years I've become quite educated in dog food. Couple that with first hand feeding experience of over a dozen different foods at both my personal professional kennel operation and the USMC IDD bomb detection dog program and I've got a lot of background in the food arena. I'm not picking on you I just don't think the nutritionist you listened to is as educated as he/she would like to think.



You got it bro!


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## SilveradoZ71 (Feb 20, 2014)

I will continue to stay AWAY from ANY dog food that has corn listed as the #1 or #2 ingredient.  

If nothing else, feeding a good meat/meat meal based food keeps the "land mines" from being so big and nasty.

As for me and my chocolate girl, we will stick to Victor.  No reason to fix what isnt broke! 

I use to feed garbage like Purina dog chow or Purina puppy chow.  Never again.


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## GA DAWG (Feb 20, 2014)

I feed diamond now. Course I fed black gold for about 15 yrs. Not much difference to me. I've fed Purina to. The diamond naturals seems ok to me. Mine are pictures of health. I've heard bad tales about victor and 4 health and just about anything made. Feed em one if they start looking bad or can't perform their duty or seem lazy or crap all over the pen.  Change to Somethin else. Almost all dogs are different I guess when it comes to feed. Just because one works for me. That doesn't mean its going to work for you.


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## SilveradoZ71 (Feb 20, 2014)

GA DAWG said:


> I've heard bad tales about victor .



I have yet to find one bad comment on this food.  Id venture a guess that any bad comment about Victor is from those who feed their dogs garbage (Purina etc) and try to justify their cheapness by putting quality dog foods down.

JMHO.


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## Joe Overby (Feb 20, 2014)

SilveradoZ71 said:


> I have yet to find one bad comment on this food.  Id venture a guess that any bad comment about Victor is from those who feed their dogs garbage (Purina etc) and try to justify their cheapness by putting quality dog foods down.
> 
> JMHO.


Wanna be my friend??


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## gunslinger33 (Feb 21, 2014)

Joe I went with your suggestion of 24/20.

 Not to bash Diamond but the sales associate at the feed store did point out that all of Victor's ingredients and packaging are made in the US where Diamond imports packaging and ingredients from Asia.


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## RUTTNBUCK (Feb 22, 2014)

Joe Overby said:


> Food trial was conducted. My personal dog is allergic to chicken.
> My point of the coyote grazing in a wheat field was to indirectly make the point that in the wild a dogs diet is not primarily grains. Yes, the first thing dogs eat out of whatever it is that is dead is the guts. Why?? The vitamins and proteins contained in the organs. NOT the leftover/partially digested grains left inbtje digestive tract.
> Gunslinger, I've been feeding the 24/20 to puppies for 8 months now...I LIKE it. No need for the 30/20. The carb/calorie/ general makeup of the 24/20 is different than the 30/20...I feel yje dogs just do better on it.
> Justus...dogfoodadvisor is not unbiased. Everybody is getting paid by somebody. You want independent, unbiased research?? Start calling companies..I've got $10 says you get hung up on more than you get answers. Point is...dog food companies dont want you to know whats in their food...because most of the bigger companies are owned by human product companies(proctor and gamble, Johnson and Johnson etc...) and why is this?? So they have somewhere to put their waste.


We just ordered a bag of the Victor Yukon River from Amazon........We'll see if the Grain free/Chicken free blend will help with our Golden's itchy skin.

The Pro Plan that we have been feeding made his coat look the best of any we have fed!!...........But the constant scratching!!


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## GA DAWG (Feb 22, 2014)

RUTTNBUCK said:


> We just ordered a bag of the Victor Yukon River from Amazon........We'll see if the Grain free/Chicken free blend will help with our Golden's itchy skin.
> 
> The Pro Plan that we have been feeding made his coat look the best of any we have fed!!...........But the constant scratching!!


I got one doing that same thing on diamond naturals. This one is 12 though. Lived most her life on the devil foods with corn and all in em. Treed hundreds and hundreds of coon for me over those yrs. Never once had a problem. Yesterday she ate her last corn free food. Today she's getting put back on her old food. See if the itching clears up.


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## ga shorthairs (Feb 25, 2014)

Huntdawg, our poodle (14yrs old) has struggled with allergies her entire life until about a month ago. A new prescription drug was released called Apoquel, since the very first dose she is allergy free. We have tried various foods, grain free, non chicken, beef or lamb, even prescription food to no avail. Just wanted to let you know about it, it's a little pricey but worth it to see our pup not suffering anymore.


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## snookdoctor (Mar 1, 2014)

Talk with your vet. They aren't forum doctors.


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## ga shorthairs (Mar 1, 2014)

Just trying to pass along useful information, I don't claim to be a Dr.


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## HuntDawg (Mar 1, 2014)

I took her to the vet a couple of weeks ago.  He said it is definitely an allergy.  Since she is an indoor dog, except for training, and hunting, he suggested we treat the symptoms through the rest of winter.  This happened last year as well, so he believes the dryer climate indoors in the winter is making it worse than the rest of the year.  With that said, I decided to put her on a better food anyway.  I have been feeding her Purina Lamb and rice since she was a pup. 
 I think he is being honest with me.  He said the skin test can only tell us a few things, but the better test is very expensive.  I guess he is not use to owners like me who really are not concerned about the cost in general.  I have put too much time into her for the Money to really matter that much.  We do not have children, so this little yellow girl pretty much rules the nest.

I just got some samples of Victor, and we will see what happens.  I am not expecting much. Regardless, I should have had her on a higher quality diet to begin with. Not being cheap in the past, just not educated.


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## Joe Overby (Mar 3, 2014)

It very well could be an environmental allergy. If so, there's not much you can do but treat the symptoms. A better food will HELP...vitamin E will help...
 FWIW, the skin test is expensive. I spent a ton of money on dogs and I cringe when vets bring it up. Not saying don't do it...but, just be prepared. Good luck and keep us updated on how she's doing and whether or not the food helps.


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## Beagler282 (Mar 3, 2014)

HuntDawg said:


> I have a 3 year old yellow female lab. She has developed an allergy. Skin itches and is red. Indoor dog, but hunts with me. I am currently feeding her Purina large breed lamb and rice. I was wondering if a higher quality food might help. I started her on Omega 3 about 8 weeks ago. I have been told that some indoor dogs will developed allergies as they get older and the winter season can make the itching worse due to dry skin from the heat.
> 
> Am I thinking too much? Should she be on a higher quality food regardless?



Take her to the vet and have a allergy test done to find out everything she is allergic to.Might not even be food related.


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## Johnny44 (Mar 8, 2014)

I have a red nosed red pit. She broke out in hives when we first got her. I had thrown out rye grass and thought she was allergic to that. Our back yard also holds water like none other. We never figured out what the exact cause was but she take cetirizine (generic Zyrtec) and fish oil every day. Benadryl as needed. No major problems since and that's been almost two years. Our vet said fare skinned short haired dogs tend to have skin problems. Never did allergy test. Have always fed her blue buffalo. Yes, we treat our dogs better than some treat their children. We're a little crazy in that way.


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## Doc Olly (Mar 9, 2014)

ga shorthairs said:


> Huntdawg, our poodle (14yrs old) has struggled with allergies her entire life until about a month ago. A new prescription drug was released called Apoquel, since the very first dose she is allergy free. We have tried various foods, grain free, non chicken, beef or lamb, even prescription food to no avail. Just wanted to let you know about it, it's a little pricey but worth it to see our pup not suffering anymore.



I have heard so much about Apoquel and it has all been positive. I attended a lecture a few weeks ago about Apoquel. It's not a steroid but it " modulates" the immune system to help control allergies. I read that it wirks within 4-6 hours and last for 24 hours.

I want to order some for my hospital bit I have ine question:
Did you notice any side negative side effects?
Such as vomiting or diarrhea? Increased thirst or urination? Any weird behaviors?

Thanks, glad you brought this up?
I am a licensed small animal veterinarian.


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## wranglerjoe1968 (Jun 10, 2014)

Joe Overby said:


> I like the 24/20. But, the 26/18 ain't bad either. I'm really just trying to stay away from 30% protein running through their kidneys. So far have been really impressed all the way around with Victors 24/20...been on it almost a year now.



What dog food is this?  Doc Olly with all of the options out there what is a good option?


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## Joe Overby (Jun 10, 2014)

Who is doc olly?


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