# Death Penalty.



## gordon 2 (Sep 23, 2011)

There is a pole on the Death Penalty in the political forum. I wonder if there was one in Spiritual Discussions and Study, that if the results would be similar?  Or, what does the bible say about capital punishment or the death penalty?


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## JB0704 (Sep 23, 2011)

Depends on the denomination of the person you are asking?

I believe you are Catholic, as such you know typical thoughts are that most Catholics oppose it.

Here in the Bible belt, the Baptists are ardent supporters of it.

I am against it on very many fronts, for very many reasons, but religion does not really play into my views on the subject.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 23, 2011)

It's kind of funny.  I honestly don't know how I feel about it.  I found myself praying for Mr. Davis on the way home Wed.  I just was burdened for him for some reason.

I've also been studying forgiveness and the Bible very clearly tells us to forgive.  Not just for the sake of forgiving, but so that the Father will also forgive us.  We will not be forgiven if we don't forgive.  

It also says that our prayers are hindered by unforgiveness.

As Christians, I don't know how we can call for the death penalty even though I'm probably the guy who gets a Boortz-like thrill when some thug gets killed by his would-be victim.

Death was clearly a first-line penalty in OT times.  But the call to forgive in the NT has me re-thinking my support.....soley on religious grounds.  My flesh says "fry 'em".  The Bible tells me to forgive.

As an individual, I might say that Christians should not call for death when they or someone close to them is wronged...maybe?  

I haven't done a deep scriptural study on the issue.  Just relating what I'm studying on forgiveness to the issue.


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## centerpin fan (Sep 23, 2011)

I don't have a problem with it.

I've always thought it was interesting that many people who hate the death penalty have absolutely no problem with abortion.  That is certainly not true in all cases, but I'd guess that many of the protesters in this case fit into that category.  Sharpton is one very vocal example.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 23, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> I don't have a problem with it.
> 
> I've always thought it was interesting that many people who hate the death penalty have absolutely no problem with abortion.  That is certainly not true in all cases, but I'd guess that many of the protesters in this case fit into that category.  Sharpton is one very vocal example.



Sharpton!   What a joke.   What does he actually get paid to do? 

Anyway, I'm for the death penalty.   

Count that as one Pentecostal vote 'For'.


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## JB0704 (Sep 23, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> I've always thought it was interesting that many people who hate the death penalty have absolutely no problem with abortion.



That is true, and then they say the reverse is also true.

I am against the death penalty because it costs too much, the risk of incorrectly killing an innocent person far outweighs any good done by killing a guilty person, and I believe life without parole is a worse sentence than death considering what happens in prison.  I would not want to live out my days in a cage.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 23, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I am against the death penalty because it costs too much...



Amen!    The endless appeals process and legal finagling make a joke of the death penalty.   Case in point....yesterday's Georgia execution.   20 years?   unbelievable cost involved for this one crime.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 23, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> It's kind of funny.  I honestly don't know how I feel about it.  I found myself praying for Mr. Davis on the way home Wed.  I just was burdened for him for some reason.
> 
> I've also been studying forgiveness and the Bible very clearly tells us to forgive.  Not just for the sake of forgiving, but so that the Father will also forgive us.  We will not be forgiven if we don't forgive.
> 
> ...



I now know that you are an honest man. 
All your words are full of integrety. 

So I'm going to pick a few and I find interesting.


Here: 

"I just was burdened for him for some reason."

I am assuming that your burden was one of the heart from a spiritual perspective and not one of the mind or logic from an emotionaly perspective?

Could it be that when it comes to the death penalty as a remedy for justice, in the way God means it, that it is not?


"I haven't done a deep scriptural study on the issue.  Just relating what I'm studying on forgiveness to the issue".

Ok so you studied forgiveness to an extent, what about the greater issue which encompasses forgiveness--namely Justice.

Scriptural let's see. Can we start with what Peter says here?

Show respect to all men treat them honorably. 1Peter 2, 17

When He was reviled and insulted, He did not revile or ofer insult in return; When He was abused and suffered, He made no threats of vengence; but he trusted Himself and everything: to Him Who judges fairly.  1Peter 2, 23

How about Chapter 3,9 Never return evil for evil or insult for insult....



How about 4:15&16

 15Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, of evildoer, or a troulesome meddler; 

16But if anyone suffers a s Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but it is to glorify God in this name.


I am all questions...???? Can some add or take away what I have quoted?


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## Randy (Sep 23, 2011)

It is pretty clear in the Bible that God believed in capital punishment.  In fact He commanded the death penalty for way more things that man does.

Kidnapping (Exodus 21:16)
Adultery (Leviticus 20:10)
Homosexuality, another subject being discussed elsewhere on this forum. (Leviticus 20:13)

There are many others.  And there ate times when God showed mercy when the death penalty was due (when David committed adultry, 2 Samuel 11:1-5)

No we should not rejoice over someone being put to death though that is sometimes hard when some crimes are so hanious.  But as Christians we know God has approved of the use of capital punishment.


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## j_seph (Sep 23, 2011)

Can they not be forgiven yet still be punished to death for their crime.
I mean I could forgive you for stealing my car but you still have to pay for the crime. Only in this crime he has to pay with his life.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 23, 2011)

Randy said:


> It is pretty clear in the Bible that God believed in capital punishment.  In fact He commanded the death penalty for way more things that man does.
> 
> Kidnapping (Exodus 21:16)
> Adultery (Leviticus 20:10)
> ...



Perhaps, but slavery is part of the social fabric  in the Old Testament, but are we in that dispensation or still in that code of the "old people" as opposed to the new people in Christ? People were put to death for offences, but does it  still hold for the people of the Good News, the Kingdom....???

Scripture?


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## Huntinfool (Sep 23, 2011)

> I am assuming that your burden was one of the heart from a spiritual perspective and not one of the mind or logic from an emotionaly perspective?
> 
> Could it be that when it comes to the death penalty as a remedy for justice, in the way God means it, that it is not?



I simply prayed for salvation and for comfort.  The emotional turmoil of watching the clock counting your remaining minutes on earth must have been excrutiating.  I simply prayed for comfort.


I'm with you on what you quoted from scripture.  The model Jesus left us was not one of revenge.  I don't know of any instance in the NT that leads me to "kill for a killing".  

I don't know that it's my place to lobby for a change though.  I do not think that you can legislate morality or religion effectively.


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## JB0704 (Sep 23, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> I do not think that you can legislate morality or religion effectively.



I agree.  Let's use reason, not religion, and lobby against it.  We can use all the money we save to build new schools, and give folks a better education so a life of crime becomes less of an option.

I have no evidence, but I have a feeling that education deters crime as effectively, if not more so, than the death penalty.

Let's base our laws on reason.  Would you rather be killed, or spend the rest of your life in prison? I know what the answer is for me.  It costs so much more to execute a person than it does to sustain them behind bars.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 23, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> I simply prayed for salvation and for comfort.  The emotional turmoil of watching the clock counting your remaining minutes on earth must have been excrutiating.  I simply prayed for comfort.
> 
> 
> I'm with you on what you quoted from scripture.  The model Jesus left us was not one of revenge.  I don't know of any instance in the NT that leads me to "kill for a killing".
> ...



Perhaps, regards lobby...but isn't it our place in the Kingdom to lobby for Justice and not revenge? Begs the question what is justice? And that is a big question. But we should be able to come to an understanding from the body of Christ alone. What is there to know?

Take the reparation  for murder that is deemed justice in Pakistan as an example. Is it just? Their's is an eye for an eye OR reparations ( usually in money or capitals ie. resources) the latter deemed merciful. 

What do the apostles and Jesus say? We know what ancient people said. 

To my view it seems like  a controled intitutionalized revenge which protects against the legal or spontanious lynch mob and puts an end to fudes such as the Hatfields and the Coys. It ( capital punishment, the death penalty) is an evil to avoid a greater evil in society. But is that really where Christians stop regards justice for crimimals? Yet, I might be incorrect in my view...granted.

Nearly everyone says if someone murders a family member they deserve what they are going to get. But you never here, My brother or sister the murderer deserves death if there is a loving relationship of any kind? So what is justice here? What is our justice as christians?


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## Huntinfool (Sep 23, 2011)

> To my view it seems like controled intitutionalized revenge.



That's exactly what it is.  Yes, it's also a consequence.  But, at it's core, it's revenge.  A proverbial eye for an eye.

I suppose I fall in the "justice is God's alone" camp.  Jesus tells a parable in Luke that indicates that God will, indeed, give us justice over our adversaries.  But he tells it in the context of a judge metting out justice.  i.e. God will provide justice when he returns.  

I suppose, let's take this out of the institutional context and just put it on vigilanty justice.  

If there was no government to do it and the law didn't prevent it...if someone murdered Billy Graham's wife...would we expect him to track that man down and "kill him back" (in the words of Ron White) in the name of "justice" or "consequence"?

Would a follower of Christ be justified in "killing you back" if you killed someone close to them?  I just can't see it.


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## JB0704 (Sep 23, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Would a follower of Christ be justified in "killing you back" if you killed someone close to them?  I just can't see it.



Yea, now you're on the "liberal" Christian team.  Welcome!


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## Huntinfool (Sep 23, 2011)

I've already demanded that management trade me for a player to be named later...


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## Randy (Sep 23, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Perhaps, but slavery is part of the social fabric  in the Old Testament, but are we in that dispensation or still in that code of the "old people" as opposed to the new people in Christ? People were put to death for offences, but does it  still hold for the people of the Good News, the Kingdom....???
> 
> Scripture?



Yes.   I heard all my life that "we" are no longer under the Law.  But that is not true.  We are not judged by the Law but the Law still defines sin.  We are still expected to obey the Law. Romans 7:7.


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## JB0704 (Sep 23, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> I've already demanded that management trade me for a player to be named later...


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 23, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Would a follower of Christ be justified in "killing you back" if you killed someone close to them?  I just can't see it.



I believe Jesus gave us the right to defend ourselves, but not retaliate for wrongs.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 23, 2011)

As a matter of man's law I favor the death penalty and I find no conflict in faith in that the intended purpose of the law is to protect the law abiding citizen.  Roman's 13 tells us to submit to authority because all authority is established by God and authority does not bear the sword for nothing.

However, I have grave concerns about the ability of man's institutions to apply that law justly.  The same passage (Rm. 13) tells us that if we do good we will have no fear of authority, but praise it.  For a long time I have wondered what we are to do if we do good and still fear authority.

My observations, both personal and by way of the media, makes me conclude that the justice system is not to be trusted.  Whether civil or criminal, it seems to be a tool of the power hungry from top to bottom.  But, it is the best system that money can buy.  If you don't have the money...justice is mostly out of reach within the system.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 23, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Yea, now you're on the "liberal" Christian team.  Welcome!


 

Funny..... But this is not a liberal or conservative thing, it is about justice that achieves peace....

Now does the death penalty acheave peace?

For example my wife would torture every child molester, in a very unkind  and vicious way, but I would lock them up and limit their contact with the greater community. I would never do what my wife feels is just. I can't see it would contribute to peace.


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## JB0704 (Sep 23, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Funny..... But this is not a liberal or conservative thing, it is about justice that achieves peace....
> 
> Now does the death penalty acheave peace?
> 
> For example my wife would torture every child molester, in a very unkind  and vicious way, but I would lock them up and limit their contact with the greater community. I would never do what my wife feels is just. I can't see it would contribute to peace.




As far as the liberl thing goes, well, around here being against the death penalty, for any reason, is a very liberal position.  I hesitate to tell folks I am against it.

I think I would side with your wife on that one, but locking them up also achieves that goal, I hear they get a very harsh treatment from other prisoners.  I think there is nothing more discpicable than a child molester.  

But, you are correct, that is soley based on vengance. 

When we deal law, I try to remove my religious prejudices from things, because I would not want other's religious prejudices forced on me (do unto others, right?). So I go to reason. Reason would tell me that it is just as punishing, and maybe more so, to lock a person up for the rest of their life.  Additionally, it is cheaper.  As I mentioned in a previous thread, that money could be used to address the root of the crime problem, and often that is poverty and education.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 23, 2011)

hummerpoo said:


> As a matter of man's law I favor the death penalty and I find no conflict in faith in that the intended purpose of the law is to protect the law abiding citizen.  Roman's 13 tells us to submit to authority because all authority is established by God and authority does not bear the sword for nothing.
> 
> However, I have grave concerns about the ability of man's institutions to apply that law justly.  The same passage (Rm. 13) tells us that if we do good we will have no fear of authority, but praise it.  For a long time I have wondered what we are to do if we do good and still fear authority.
> 
> My observations, both personal and by way of the media, makes me conclude that the justice system is not to be trusted.  Whether civil or criminal, it seems to be a tool of the power hungry from top to bottom.  But, it is the best system that money can buy.  If you don't have the money...justice is mostly out of reach within the system.



 Very good observations and I agree. I have a brother who is a risk taking business man. He does business like a card player....only when he sits at the table he does not bet all.

Anyway he's been to court for business reasons many times. He says that in a court of law what his greatest lesson was, was not what or who was right or correct, or what was just, but rather it was all about winning. And since winning was the game, what was right or just in a case was a smokescreen to avoid--no matter how right you thought you were. Winning was everything to the client and the lawyer he paid. And that is what the court was all about. Winning.

So since you and I agree that our legal system will fail even ordinary justice and show right from wrong, let alone one inspired from the Gospels, why do we let our justice give out the death penalty?

And if the death penalty is a remedy to calm the lynch mobs, fudes and revenge killings are we not telling the lynch mobs, the fuders and those who seek revenge that killing is a remedy. A remedy, but like moon shining, taken from the citizen and liscenced by the state. And those adverse to the state for many reasons, reason that killing is a remedy for injury.

But surely there are scripture in the New Testament that could apply to clear things up. 

If christians, those that hold to a new life in Christ, could petition their elected representatives as to the role of the Death Penalty as an intrument of justice with the goal of social peace for all; what New Testatment scriptures would you use for being against or for?


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## gemcgrew (Sep 23, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I have no evidence, but I have a feeling that education deters crime as effectively, if not more so, than the death penalty.



The death penalty would be the most effective deterrent if used swiftly and more often. 



JB0704 said:


> It costs so much more to execute a person than it does to sustain them behind bars.



Take away the appeals and it gets pretty cheap in a hurry.


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## mtnwoman (Sep 23, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> I don't have a problem with it.
> 
> I've always thought it was interesting that many people who hate the death penalty have absolutely no problem with abortion.  That is certainly not true in all cases, but I'd guess that many of the protesters in this case fit into that category.  Sharpton is one very vocal example.



Right on!

I'm on another forum that is only about 20% Christian, it isn't a religious forum, it's an artist forum. And the majority there are definately pro choice and anti death penalty and vegans....and mostly leftys or far leftys.


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## gemcgrew (Sep 23, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> what New Testatment scriptures would you use for being against or for?



*For

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves ****ation.

For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Romans 13: 1-4


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## mtnwoman (Sep 23, 2011)

j_seph said:


> Can they not be forgiven yet still be punished to death for their crime.
> I mean I could forgive you for stealing my car but you still have to pay for the crime. Only in this crime he has to pay with his life.



Agree!


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## mtnwoman (Sep 23, 2011)

I am for the death penalty....well let's say I'm not against it...I don't really want anyone to be killed.
I think it depends on how horrible the crime. Like the guy on trial now for killing three women, first by raping and then torching the house with the women tied up and of course dying in the fire. Mother and 2 daughters, one was only 11.

It started out as a robbery.
And the woman complied by getting money from the bank, then the 2 men tortured and killed them.

People that torture and kill children....whew, I don't know what to do with them.....death penalty almost seems too good for them.

If you don't want the death penalty then don't commit the crime....it's not like death row people didn't make the choice to chance it, ya know?

Render unto Caesar what is Caesars and unto God what is Gods.
Other words we are subject to abide by the laws of the land and of course abide by what God says, too. Which is usually all close to the 10 commandments anyway.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 23, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> It's kind of funny.  I honestly don't know how I feel about it.  I found myself praying for Mr. Davis on the way home Wed.  I just was burdened for him for some reason.
> 
> I've also been studying forgiveness and the Bible very clearly tells us to forgive.  Not just for the sake of forgiving, but so that the Father will also forgive us.  We will not be forgiven if we don't forgive.
> 
> ...



Exactly.
I see it's purpose in life and society (I think), but as a mature Christian I can't see any place for me to be able to place my approval on it.

Stats say that at least 15 percent didn't even commit the crime.


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## Michael F. Gray (Sep 23, 2011)

As a fundamental Conservative Christian from the Bible Belt who believes in the death penalty for those who have intentionally taken a life, and there being no resonable doubt as to guilt, a finding rendered by a jury of the accused peers based on the evidence, appeals exhausted, then please allow me to make one observation. I've never seen an executed murderer repeat his crime. I have seen many released to re-offend. My own grandfather was murdered by a robber as he closed his country store in 1959. The inmate who murdered him and one of his customers spent twenty some years in prison before escaping from a work release assignment and fleeing to a neighboring State where he murdered a State Trooper who attempted to stop the stolen car he was driving. The point I'd like to make is simple. Nothing can give us back the Grandfather taken so cruelly, shot six times, or his friend whose only crime was to stop at the store as the crime spree occured. However, the family of that Trooper need not have suffered their loss if JUSTICE had been certain and SURE.
Please don't think this vindictive. I spent seven years transporting inmates, and never loaded one without offering a Gospel Tract. There is a reason why in the Old Testament as the Hebrews entered Canaan, "cities of refuge" were set up, three before they crossed the river into Cannan, and three inside Canaan. These cities were for one who accidently took a life to flee. In Hebrew culture a slain man's  nearest kinsman served as an "Avenger of Blood", and it was his responsibility to slay the manslayer. If it wasn't murder, the taker of a life was to flee to the city of refuge where the Avenger of blood could not touch him. He was guaranteed a fair hearing based on the evidence. There is a recorded case of an axe head coming off the handle and causing a death. In such cases the death penalty is not warranted. If it is pre meditated, cold blooded murder the taker of life should be prepared to pay with his own life.


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## Six million dollar ham (Sep 23, 2011)

gemcgrew said:


> Take away the appeals and it gets pretty cheap in a hurry.



Taking away rights is not all that cheap though.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 23, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Very good observations and I agree. I have a brother who is a risk taking business man. He does business like a card player....only when he sits at the table he does not bet all.
> 
> Anyway he's been to court for business reasons many times. He says that in a court of law what his greatest lesson was, was not what or who was right or correct, or what was just, but rather it was all about winning. And since winning was the game, what was right or just in a case was a smokescreen to avoid--no matter how right you thought you were. Winning was everything to the client and the lawyer he paid. And that is what the court was all about. Winning.
> 
> ...



Sorry, if it's there I'm not seeing it.  All your question brought to my mind was what a terrible position the Christian community is in to take a stand based on the efficacy of NT teachings.

I guess I'll stand with Habakkuk after He complained about the evil around him and God told him what He was doing: WOW! You are awesome,  I'll just watch You work and cheer.


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## JB0704 (Sep 23, 2011)

gemcgrew said:


> The death penalty would be the most effective deterrent if used swiftly and more often.



But honestly, society would be better if we deterred the crime before it happened, and preventing murder is always better than punishing it. 




gemcgrew said:


> Take away the appeals and it gets pretty cheap in a hurry.



You and I would love the appeals process if we were wrongly accused.  It happens.  When we are talking about taking a person's life, it better to be safe than sorry.


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## formula1 (Sep 24, 2011)

*Re:*

I'm for the death penalty:

I'm absolutely for all to die to self and to be reborn in the Power of Jesus Christ.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 24, 2011)

formula1 said:


> I'm for the death penalty:
> 
> I'm absolutely for all to die to self and to be reborn in the Power of Jesus Christ.



So that is what the death penalty is about in the case of murderers and criminals?

What does scripture ( New Testament) say about the death penalty or justice that would cover it? Anything? Nothing?

We know that the Old Testament dispensation sanctions it. Nothing was changed in this regard in the New Testament dispensation, in Christ? 

I find it strange that many things were changed in that Christ came to fullfill the law, but in this case, the case of the death penalty as an istrument of justice, is not one of them. 

Seriously, where am I to get my direction in this area in Christ? in Paul?--- in Peter, in Jude, in Luke, in Revelations, in the Acts, John? From christian doctrine?  From what part of the body of Christ do I get my direction. 

I do not live in the old covenant, and my ancestors never did as they were gentiles, I'm not going to start now for one question of the death penalty. I live because Christ gave me life and rebirth.  It is the only life I have ever known. In that life, in Him that is just and justice, and Judge, where do I get my direction on the death penalty? Serious.

I know that if "old gordo" looks into himself for an answer that like it is with my wife, torture would be added before the actual injection to stop the heart, and that  the administration of letal injection would have indifferent to errors--because as sinners we err. Right? We all make errors. We'll just have to accept that like it is with Christ some of the just will be killed and that's how life is... Collateral damage, feuds, and consequential injustice is just because that's ever been a part of man's life. Sleep well, all who sleep, those who do and those who will.

Many times I am asked Gordo your opinions are just that, they are not scriptural. So I ask you not your own opinions or you own interpretations, I ask you what is the good of the Gospels and  the Christ in giving me direction about the practice of the death penalty as an instrument of God's justice-- God  Him who says in the old and  the new, it is not sacrafice I want it is mercy? At least by scripture what is your case against this?--it is not sacrafice it is mercy.  Or all this does not apply in this case...this case unique, exceptional???

Is the death penalty in any shape or form mercy or is it sacrafice?

It seems to me that if God was to judge a people who claimed to be of His, He would match his justice to their own. Does ours match to what we are in Christ?


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## hummerpoo (Sep 24, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Very good observations and I agree. I have a brother who is a risk taking business man. He does business like a card player....only when he sits at the table he does not bet all.
> 
> Anyway he's been to court for business reasons many times. He says that in a court of law what his greatest lesson was, was not what or who was right or correct, or what was just, but rather it was all about winning. And since winning was the game, what was right or just in a case was a smokescreen to avoid--no matter how right you thought you were. Winning was everything to the client and the lawyer he paid. And that is what the court was all about. Winning.
> 
> ...



Mat. 22
 37.  And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
 38.  "This is the great and foremost commandment.
 39.  "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
 40.  "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."


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## hummerpoo (Sep 24, 2011)

Gordon
In the NASB the subtitle "Personal Relationships" is inserted over Mat. 5:21-48 in which Christ reinterprets the then common understanding of seven parts of the law.  It would not be inaccurate to say he applies grace to the law.

If the secular governments application of the death penalty had that same grace applied to it, would that not then yield a society that would be extremely reluctant to kill someone to protect itself, but would do so if no other alternative could be found in love.

I believe that many of the grievous cases that we see now have the result they do because those with the responsibility of enforcing the law fear that if they do not follow the letter of the law a precident will be set that allows future cases to set the guilty free.  Would that not change if grace was applied to every case.

So, how is it that we make every capital case (or every case of law) "personal".  How do we as Christians set in motion the sactification of the justice system.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 24, 2011)

hummerpoo said:


> Gordon
> In the NASB the subtitle "Personal Relationships" is inserted over Mat. 5:21-48 in which Christ reinterprets the then common understanding of seven parts of the law.  It would not be inaccurate to say he applies grace to the law.
> 
> If the secular governments application of the death penalty had that same grace applied to it, would that not then yield a society that would be extremely reluctant to kill someone to protect itself, but would do so if no other alternative could be found in love.
> ...



If the secular governments application of the death penalty had that same grace applied to it, would that not then yield a society that would be extremely reluctant to kill someone to protect itself, but would do so if no other alternative could be found in love.

Is killing someone an instrument of justice for christians? Is it killing or justice that protects? Killing because love has a limit? I don't know.

I'd like to stay within scripture or The Body of Christ and not venture into how different forms of justice  "yield a society". Before long we will be saying that some societies define themselves as a unit made of individuals and others will say it is a unit made up of groups. And on, and on, and on, ....


So is killing someone an instrument of justice for Christians? Yes. No. And where is it in scripture, ie. the Good News?

Most of us are decendents of Europeans. Not all but most. Before Christianity we were pagans if we were on this side of the Alps. Our codes of law were pagan codes. 

As christians we study the jewish law. So we have three laws to deal with. Did christianity take us out of the codes of the jews and the pagans? Yes. No. And does the death penatly apply here and now? Yes. No. What does scripture say--The Good News??


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## hummerpoo (Sep 24, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> If the secular governments application of the death penalty had that same grace applied to it, would that not then yield a society that would be extremely reluctant to kill someone to protect itself, but would do so if no other alternative could be found in love.
> Killing because love has a limit?  I’m with you on that one.  I had in mind a situation that was something like killing one would save the lives of many.  The love of the many overcomes the love of the one.  I can’t bring myself to ignore that those things do face us in this world.Is killing someone an instrument of justice for christians? Is it killing or justice that protects? Killing because love has a limit? I don't know.
> 
> I'd like to stay within scripture or The Body of Christ and not venture into how different forms of justice  "yield a society". Before long we will be saying that some societies define themselves as a unit made of individuals and others will say it is a unit made up of groups. And on, and on, and on, ....
> ...



You set the bar very high.  I don’t believe that the death penalty is directly addressed in NT Scripture.  So what precepts are there that can guide us?  Love has to be first.  Love of God and Love of neighbor.  Neighbor is both our brothers and sisters in Christ and those who are outside the Body of Christ.  The instructions we are given for dealing with sin within the Body have to do with the purity of the Body (the same is true of Israel).  In the OT they were usually put to death.  In the NT they are separated from the Body with an eye to redemption (1Cor. 5:5).  By extension incarceration would replace capital punishment.

BUT, what about those outside the Body?  Paul said those were for God to judge (1Cor. 5:13).  Or does “render unto Caesar” apply?  Either way we have two different standards for the Church and the world.  How does that work?  Maybe it works just exactly like it is intended to work.  We are to be a light to the world (Mat. 5:14).  We are in the world but not of the world.  How much real good has Christianity ever done when it tried to build the world in the image of the Church?  We got the crusades and the USA today.

Sound like a cop out?  Consider this.  Justice and mercy are opposed to each other.  Justice negates mercy and mercy negates justice.  God’s solution to the requirement for both is the Cross.  I don’t think we are going to match that.

I think we need to follow Habakkuk.


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## JB0704 (Sep 24, 2011)

Just read Habakkuk for the first time.  I am having difficulty understanding the application here, unless we are saying let justice be God's.

As far as NT application to the death penalty, it would seem that Jesus might be opposed to such a method of punishment.  The only time he is presented with such a case, he basically "passes."  Yes, for the 1,000th time, I am talking about the adulteress woman (John 8).

First and foremost, Jesus asked the woman to repent (just for you, Centerpin Fan).

But, the law stated (Mosaic, its in the OT) she should be executed.  Jesus did not execute her, nor did he endorse her execution (example of Jesus breaking Mosaic law?).  

That does not mean she was innocent.  I guess that is the closest thing we have.


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## formula1 (Sep 25, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> So that is what the death penalty is about in the case of murderers and criminals?



Gordon, my friend, I apologize. I was thinking about it in a spiritual sense and that's just what popped out.

James 2:13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

When I think of it (the DP), this scripture comes to mind. I think I would prefer to be merciful as opposed to passing judgment. Judgment, in the other hand, is said to be harsh (that's what I get when I read the 2 words 'Without mercy') to one who shows no mercy.

There is a case in this scripture for the DP (judgment) and for mercy (Perhaps a lesser sentence). The one who has shown no mercy and it can be clearly understood from overwhelming evidence, perhaps the sentence does fit!

In reality, however, this scripture is exhorting us as believers to be merciful with the Body of Christ, and challenging us to live this life continually. I know it's not really about the DP, but there is a principle therein!

For me, I think if we want all (like Jesus does) to come to Christ, we must be willing to give the worst among us a chance.  Swift DP's I am not for, rather, let's be longsuffering. Perhaps, like David Berkowitz (Son of Sam), that longsuffering will lead one to trust Christ as Savior and Lord!

God Bless!


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## hummerpoo (Sep 25, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Just read Habakkuk for the first time.  I am having difficulty understanding the application here, unless we are saying let justice be God's.



The focus is God, not man.  Habakkuk’s question is “why do I have to put up with all of this evil around me, when are you going to do something”.  God’s answer is “I am in control, My people will be saved, It’s all for My glory.”  Habakkuk’s response is “Wow, You are awesome, I’ll just watch You work, and cheer”. 

Some view the death penalty as evil, many would say a necessary evil, all would favor no evil.  God’s in control, it’s all for His glory, I’ll just watch Him work, and cheer as He takes care of all evil for all time.  If His plan has a part for me I have to trust that it will be made clear.

Should we participate in evil for the glory of God?  No, (Rm 6:1,2 parallel),  we have our instructions and they seem to be within the brotherhood of believers.

Two other points on Habakkuk: he thought God’s results would be great, but he disapproved of His method; and he was given a task.


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## JB0704 (Sep 25, 2011)

hummerpoo said:


> Should we participate in evil for the glory of God?  No, (Rm 6:1,2 parallel),  we have our instructions and they seem to be within the brotherhood of believers.



Ok.  So the implication is that the death penalty is not justified?  Or are you saying it is God's work?  I am sorry if I have missed something.....



hummerpoo said:


> Two other points on Habakkuk: he thought God’s results would be great, but he disapproved of His method; and he was given a task.



I will have to re-read it.  I went through very quickly while trying to figure out where you were going with the reference.


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## gemcgrew (Sep 25, 2011)

formula1 said:


> Perhaps, like David Berkowitz (Son of Sam), that longsuffering will lead one to trust Christ as Savior and Lord!
> 
> God Bless!



There is no danger in being swift with the death penalty as far as salvation is concerned. The malefactor on the cross is a prime example. He railed on Christ along with others, but something miraculous took place. His eyes were opened in an instant and he saw the Gospel for the first time. The Gospel was hanging on a tree close by "And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:42,43

The malefactor could not have been saved at a better time. God's timing is perfect as it is with all His children.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 25, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Ok.  So the implication is that the death penalty is not justified?  Or are you saying it is God's work?  I am sorry if I have missed something.....
> 
> I have been told that the study of scripture requires three questions, "What does it say?", "What does it mean?", and "What are you going to do about it?"  My application of that idea is that I concentrate on the first two.  Then when the need arises I am prepared to apply the last question.  As a general rule I try not to answer the third question for others.  In this case generalized conclusions are difficult because the only case I have identified is an extension of the 1Cor. 5 passage
> 
> I will have to re-read it.  I went through very quickly while trying to figure out where you were going with the reference.



I should make a correction, he initially disagreed with His method.  Upon gaining a better understanding he accepted it.


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## mtnwoman (Sep 26, 2011)

gemcgrew said:


> There is no danger in being swift with the death penalty as far as salvation is concerned. The malefactor on the cross is a prime example. He railed on Christ along with others, but something miraculous took place. His eyes were opened in an instant and he saw the Gospel for the first time. The Gospel was hanging on a tree close by "And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:42,43
> 
> The malefactor could not have been saved at a better time. God's timing is perfect as it is with all His children.



Amen!!
Just in the nick of time!! When you are on your last leg... in other words, just when you drop to your knees in desperation, the Saviour is there.  Hallelujah to the Lamb of God, who took away the sin of the WORLD!!


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## formula1 (Sep 26, 2011)

*Re:*



gemcgrew said:


> There is no danger in being swift with the death penalty as far as salvation is concerned. The malefactor on the cross is a prime example. He railed on Christ along with others, but something miraculous took place. His eyes were opened in an instant and he saw the Gospel for the first time. The Gospel was hanging on a tree close by "And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:42,43
> 
> The malefactor could not have been saved at a better time. God's timing is perfect as it is with all His children.



I agree with you! It's is about God's timing and not my own.

The key in the paragraph you quoted from which I wrote is the first 2 words, "For me".  I would not choose a swift approach. Thanks!


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## stringmusic (Sep 26, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I agree.  Let's use reason, not religion, and lobby against it.  We can use all the money we save to build new schools, and give folks a better education so a life of crime becomes less of an option.
> 
> I have no evidence, but I have a feeling that education deters crime as effectively, if not more so, than the death penalty.
> 
> Let's base our laws on reason.  Would you rather be killed, or spend the rest of your life in prison? I know what the answer is for me.  It costs so much more to execute a person than it does to sustain them behind bars.



An unintelligent man works for the train station and steals nuts and bolts from the track. Send him to college and he comes back to work and steals the whole track.


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## JB0704 (Sep 26, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> An unintelligent man works for the train station and steals nuts and bolts from the track. Send him to college and he comes back to work and steals the whole track.



String, I am having difficulty understanding what your point is.  Also, intelligence and education are two different things.

There is a direct link to crime and poverty.  There is a direct link to education and poverty.  One would assume then that there is a link between education and crime.  That does not mean that this will stop murder. It might reduce the amount of murders happening.  That was my point.


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## Inthegarge (Sep 26, 2011)

I want to know why you think it is different to execute a convicted murderer than to allow him to live in a cell for the rest of his life. The end result is the same ....he dies. God has made it clear that the punishment of Death is on all men......Aren't you just delaying the inevitable ????...........


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## Bama4me (Sep 26, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Perhaps, but slavery is part of the social fabric  in the Old Testament, but are we in that dispensation or still in that code of the "old people" as opposed to the new people in Christ? People were put to death for offences, but does it  still hold for the people of the Good News, the Kingdom....???
> 
> Scripture?



Ephesians 6:5-9, Colossians 3:22-25, and 1 Peter 2:18 all sanction (not outlaw) the practice of slavery.  Thus, it was part of the New Testament social fabric also.

One of the biggest things that many times we forget in a discussion like this is the fact the Law of Moses was a code for BOTH religion and government whereas the law of Christ is a code for religion.  I'm NOT saying that the law of Christ should not affect government... it should.  However, the Law of Moses provided the COI information needed to establish both religion and governement in their community... and Christ's law does not.  

I say that to say this... forgiveness isn't just a "New Testament idea".  God has always commanded His people to "love one's neighbor as himself" (Leviticus 19:18; Romans 13:8-10).  Yet, even under a law where love (_and by implication forgiveness_) was the rule of the day, God allowed due punishment to be given when His law was broken.  Today, we still live under a law where love for neighbor is our mandate... and it seems places like Romans 13:ff and Matthew 22:15-22 allows us to understand God gives government to punish evildoers as they deem appropriate.


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## JB0704 (Sep 26, 2011)

Inthegarge said:


> I want to know why you think it is different to execute a convicted murderer than to allow him to live in a cell for the rest of his life. The end result is the same ....he dies. God has made it clear that the punishment of Death is on all men......Aren't you just delaying the inevitable ????...........



Well, for one, the state (you and me) is not doing the killing, natural causes (God?) is.  Two, it is a lot more expensive to execute a criminal than to imprison them for life.  And to be honest, I think any reasonable human would see the difference between a life sentence and an execution.

According to your logic, we should just all go ahead and die, otherwise, aren't we just delaying the inevitable????

Have you considered what Jesus did when he was confronted with a capital case?  He delayed the inevitable too.


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## centerpin fan (Sep 26, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Two, it is a lot more expensive to execute a criminal than to imprison them for life.



I think you've got that backward.  Feeding, clothing, and providing health care for a prisoner for 30-40 years is very expensive.


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## JB0704 (Sep 26, 2011)

Bama4me said:


> and it seems places like Romans 13:ff and Matthew 22:15-22 allows us to understand God gives government to punish evildoers as they deem appropriate.



I pointed this out previously, and nobody has addressed it.  The question was whether the NT, or Jesus, endorsed capital punishment.

The adulteress woman committed a crime that the law of Moses, God's law, said should be punished with death.  Jesus did not execute her himself, nor did he endorse her execution by the Pharisees.  Instead, it was a simple "I do not condemn you, go and sin no more."

Everyone has overlooked that when clinging to the law.


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## JB0704 (Sep 26, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> I think you've got that backward.  Feeding, clothing, and providing health care for a prisoner for 30-40 years is very expensive.



There have been studies on this, I will begin to research it if I must, but it is cheaper to imprison them for life.

Google: capital punishment more expensive than life imprisonment.  There has been much research on the topic.


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## centerpin fan (Sep 26, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Google: capital punishment more expensive than life imprisonment.  There has been much research on the topic.



I did and the first hit was an anti-death penalty site.  They cite the cost of appeals as the main culprit.  I don't doubt the need to appeal a murder case, but does the process really need to take 2-25 years? 

President McKinley was shot on September 6, 1901.  Check out the "justice timeline" below:

_Czolgosz went on trial on September 23, 1901, only nine days after the President died. Prosecution testimony took two days and consisted of the doctors who treated McKinley and various eyewitnesses to the shooting. Defense counsel Loran Lewis did not call any witnesses. In his statement to the jury, Lewis noted Czolgosz's refusal to talk to his lawyers or cooperate with them, admitted his client's act, and said that "the only question that can be discussed or considered in this case is... whether that act was that of a sane person. If it was, then the defendant is guilty of the murder... If it was the act of an insane man, then he is not guilty of murder but should be acquitted of that charge and would then be confined in a lunatic asylum."

The jury took only half an hour to convict Czolgosz. On September 26, Czolgosz was sentenced to death. He was immediately taken to Auburn State Prison to await execution. According to one account, Czolgosz expressed remorse on his way to Auburn, saying, "I wish the people to know I am sorry for what I did. It was a mistake and it was wrong. If I had it to do over again I never would do it. But it is too late now to talk of that. I am sorry I killed the President."Czolgosz was executed by means of electrocution on October 29, 1901._


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## JB0704 (Sep 26, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> I did and the first hit was an anti-death penalty site.  They cite the cost of appeals as the main culprit.  I don't doubt the need to appeal a murder case, but does the process really need to take 2-25 years?



That is a different discussion I would say. We are not debating the legal process timeline.

And the fact remains, in our current reality, it is more expensive to execute somebody.

And you would appreciate those delays and appeals if you were wrongly sentenced to death.


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## centerpin fan (Sep 26, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> That is a different discussion I would say. We are not debating the legal process timeline.
> 
> And the fact remains, in our current reality, it is more expensive to execute somebody.
> 
> And you would appreciate those delays and appeals if you were wrongly sentenced to death.



Our current reality is based on a 20-25 year appeal process, which I will never understand.


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## Randy (Sep 26, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> There have been studies on this, I will begin to research it if I must, but it is cheaper to imprison them for life.
> 
> Google: capital punishment more expensive than life imprisonment.  There has been much research on the topic.



It is not just the expense.  Our prisons are over crowded.  Speeding up the executions will lessen the over crowding.


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## JB0704 (Sep 26, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> Our current reality is based on a 20-25 year appeal process, which I will never understand.



Ok.  I will agree with that.  But it does not change the position that capital punishment currently does not make sense fiscally.


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## JB0704 (Sep 26, 2011)

Randy said:


> It is not just the expense.  Our prisons are over crowded.  Speeding up the executions will lessen the over crowding.





Not many folks would sacrifice themselves or their loved ones to ease the prison population problems.  But, I addressed this earlier, take the money you saved on the drawn out legal process and earmark it for results oriented education initiatives in high poverty areas, thus eliminating _some _crime before it occurs.  This would also ease prison poulation problems without killing anybody.


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## Bama4me (Sep 26, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I pointed this out previously, and nobody has addressed it.  The question was whether the NT, or Jesus, endorsed capital punishment.
> 
> The adulteress woman committed a crime that the law of Moses, God's law, said should be punished with death.  Jesus did not execute her himself, nor did he endorse her execution by the Pharisees.  Instead, it was a simple "I do not condemn you, go and sin no more."
> 
> Everyone has overlooked that when clinging to the law.



As long as government doesn't legislate something that goes against New Testament principles, it's not sinful.  For instance, Jesus didn't speak to the subject of having a seat belt law, but the fact he didn't "endorse it" does not mean it's sinful.  He DID, however, say to submit to the laws of government.

We've gone around the sinful woman thing in a few other threads.  First, Jesus did not have the power to execute her... the Sanhedrin would have had to gone through the legal process Rome laid out.  Notice John 8:5... "what do you SAY" (not what are you going to do).  Second, you are overlooking the reason why she was brought to the Lord in the first place... they were "testing him" (8:6).  In your observations about Jesus/the woman, you are leaving out this important factor... one that seems to have played a major role in why Jesus did what he did. 

More than that, though, is this fact.  It's very dangerous (biblically speaking) to try to use only one example as a basis for being dogmatic about any belief.  Why... due to the context of what was going on.  If we did the same thing with John 13:1ff, we'd all have to wash the feet of each other... if we did the same thing with Mark 10:17-22, we'd have to sell everything we have and give it to the poor.

On top of that with this particular passage is that it's not in many of the original texts... like some believe Mark 16:9ff to be.  IF you're trying to build a "case model" for us to follow on John 8:1ff, it's extremely poor footing.


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## JB0704 (Sep 26, 2011)

The question was for NT context.  I found one.  I don't think you could deny that no matter which angle you looked at John 8.  The law said she should be executed.  Jesus did not endorse the execution.  Regardless of why they asked, how they asked, who was asking, and what their purpose for asking was.  She was guilty of a capital crime, and Jesus did not endorse the punishment.  

How is it poor footing?  I think claiming that we should follow gov't because Romans tells us to be subjective to the authorities is poor footing.  In the US, we are the govt.  So in theory when a person is executed, it is you and me doing the killing.

Whatever the point of the story is, and that varies according to what people want to see, the fact remains that Jesus did not endorse the execution, regardless of the circumstances required for actually carrying it out.


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## JB0704 (Sep 26, 2011)

Bama4me said:


> More than that, though, is this fact.  It's very dangerous (biblically speaking) to try to use only one example as a basis for being dogmatic about any belief.  Why... due to the context of what was going on.  If we did the same thing with John 13:1ff, we'd all have to wash the feet of each other... if we did the same thing with Mark 10:17-22, we'd have to sell everything we have and give it to the poor.



I completely agree with this paragraph.  If you read all of my posts, I state that my religious beliefs are irrelevant on this topic.  I am opposed to CP for many logical reasons.  I do not impose my religious positions because I do not want others positions imposed on me (do unto others).

I only brought up John 8 because G2 was asking for biblical context.


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## whome (Sep 26, 2011)

It's a shame that I could walk up to someone and shoot them point-blank with witnesses and get off on a technicality or some legal loophole. I would imagine that if executions were carried out in a swiftly fashion it would be more of a deterrent for heinous crimes. What do you think the crime rate was 120-years ago when it only took a 10 foot piece of rope? You think all of the people back then were educated??? I would argue no, they we're scared or concerned about having to roll up their sleeves and go to work, finding whatever job they could.
   My idea on the matter is if you're opposed to the death penalty that's fine, I'm not. You pay for it then. Everyone should register, if they are for or against. If you against, you pick up the tab and sponsor your inmate. So, if the cost associated with your inmate, $15,000 or $25,000 it's on you.
  Perhaps our prisons have become too nice and are not serving as a deterrent for criminals... I'd say high fence some of the nastiest swamps you can find or put them in the middle of the desert, and make them live in tents on the bare necessities. It's a shame we spend so much money on criminals, I think taking care of the elderly in our country should be more important.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 26, 2011)

I have to wonder if Christ is proud of the stand most of His church seems to take on this subject?


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## whome (Sep 26, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> I have to wonder if Christ is proud of the stand most of His church seems to take on this subject?



I would wonder if Christ is proud of the direction of our country?


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## Bama4me (Sep 26, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> The question was for NT context.  I found one.  I don't think you could deny that no matter which angle you looked at John 8.  The law said she should be executed.  Jesus did not endorse the execution.  Regardless of why they asked, how they asked, who was asking, and what their purpose for asking was.  She was guilty of a capital crime, and Jesus did not endorse the punishment.
> 
> How is it poor footing?  I think claiming that we should follow gov't because Romans tells us to be subjective to the authorities is poor footing.  In the US, we are the govt.  So in theory when a person is executed, it is you and me doing the killing.
> 
> Whatever the point of the story is, and that varies according to what people want to see, the fact remains that Jesus did not endorse the execution, regardless of the circumstances required for actually carrying it out.



Again, you're building your case on a passage that (1) you don't know all the factors involved in Jesus' decision and (2) may not belong in the Scriptures.  IF Jesus made this a "regular practice" or if we even saw this type of case one more time in the NT, I'd wholeheartedly agree.

I get what you're saying... but Romans 13:1 is clear that we are to be subject to government... as does 1 Peter 2:13-14.  That is, unless that submission causes us to commit sin (as was the case in Acts 4:11ff).  And, BTW, in the 1st Century world, there were governments who allowed input from its citizens... some even under the umbrella of Roman rule.  I totally disagree that being part of a democracy means "we" are the ones who are doing what is done.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 26, 2011)

whome said:


> I would wonder if Christ is proud of the direction of our country?



Our country is probably about what He expected.
He's still working with us hoping it will turn to Him.

I wonder if Christ is prould of the direction of His church?


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## whome (Sep 26, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Our country is probably about what He expected.
> He's still working with us hoping it will turn to Him.
> 
> I wonder if Christ is prould of the direction of His church?



I would have to say no...


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## Ronnie T (Sep 26, 2011)

I see the usefulness of just killing someone who has taken the life of another.  I'm sure I've even said, "I'll pull the switch if they'll let me".  But that just isn't true for me anymore.
I know that I couldn't, and I wouldn't.

On the surface, it's fine with me if America has a death penalty.  But I'm no longer able to campaign for it's use.


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## Randy (Sep 26, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> I wonder if Christ is prould of the direction of His church?



Of course I am not God, but I know I am not proud of the direction of the church.


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## Greaserbilly (Sep 26, 2011)

Matthew 18

   23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold[h] was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

   26 “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

   28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins._ He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.

   29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’

   30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.

   32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.


If we pray to God to forgive us, we should forgive also.
"And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil."

I can see caging the wild animals amongst us so they can't hurt others, and I can see trying to fix people and give them opportunity. 

The longer I live, the more tired I am of violence and vengeance._


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## Randy (Sep 26, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Not many folks would sacrifice themselves or their loved ones to ease the prison population problems.  But, I addressed this earlier, take the money you saved on the drawn out legal process and earmark it for results oriented education initiatives in high poverty areas, thus eliminating _some _crime before it occurs.  This would also ease prison poulation problems without killing anybody.



Earmark for education in high poverty areas.  There are no high poverty areas without schools.  I design schools for a living.  From Cherokee Co. To Valdosta and all points in between.  From high end areas to "poverty areas" (I use that term loosely because I do not believe poverty exists in the US).  Everybody has the same shot at an education at least in Georgia.  I will say there are areas where they destroy their schools as soon as we get them built but that is their decision.  It is not like they don't get a chance.


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## JB0704 (Sep 26, 2011)

Randy said:


> Earmark for education in high poverty areas.  There are no high poverty areas without schools.  I design schools for a living.  From Cherokee Co. To Valdosta and all points in between.  From high end areas to "poverty areas" (I use that term loosely because I do not believe poverty exists in the US).  Everybody has the same shot at an education at least in Georgia.  I will say there are areas where they destroy their schools as soon as we get them built but that is their decision.  It is not like they don't get a chance.



That's why I put the "results oriented" qualifier in my statement.

There is a link between poverty and crime.  There is a link between education and poverty.  I know everybody gets a chance in America.  Are all chances equal?

There are also social problems which could be addressed, such as single parenthood in high poverty areas.  I just tossed education out there because it was the easiest target.

It is what it is.  I'm against the death penalty, and you are for it.  That's where it will stay.


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## JB0704 (Sep 26, 2011)

Bama4me said:


> Again, you're building your case on a passage that (1) you don't know all the factors involved in Jesus' decision and (2) may not belong in the Scriptures.  IF Jesus made this a "regular practice" or if we even saw this type of case one more time in the NT, I'd wholeheartedly agree.



I am going on the factors given.  And, I mean this sincerely, are you implying the passage may not be scriptural, perhaps added later?  I am not following your comment on it may not belong in the scripture.

From my limited knowledge, this is the only time sanctioned cp was brought up to Jesus.  So it is the one I used.  

Again, I am not being sarcastic, but is the bar set to where everything have to be said twice for it to be relevant theologically?  

I think every story in the Bible may have multiple layers of meaning and one can draw much wisdom from different angles.  I understand traditional conservative Christians support the death penalty.  I personally do not think Jesus would endorse it based on vengeance being God's and the death penalty being state sanctioned vengeance.

If I were a victim, or a loved one was a victim, I guarantee you I would be in line to watch the criminal hang.  But, when I look at everything involved I believe it is a net negative for society.  That is in no way based on my religious beliefs, as stated previously.


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## mtnwoman (Sep 26, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> I see the usefulness of just killing someone who has taken the life of another.  I'm sure I've even said, "I'll pull the switch if they'll let me".  But that just isn't true for me anymore.
> I know that I couldn't, and I wouldn't.
> 
> On the surface, it's fine with me if America has a death penalty.  But I'm no longer able to campaign for it's use.



I agree.
The death penalty is not something I would consider high in my priorities when it comes to voting. Now if you've got someone who is prochoice but against the death penalty, then I wouldn't vote for that person....I believe they might be slightly confused or kissing behind for votes. At least be consistant when it comes to life.


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## JB0704 (Sep 26, 2011)

I had another thought on this, and I know I am going to get hammered over context, and folks telling me what the "real point" of the story is.....but wasn't Jesus an innocent victim of Capital punishment?


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## formula1 (Sep 27, 2011)

*Re:*



JB0704 said:


> I had another thought on this, and I know I am going to get hammered over context, and folks telling me what the "real point" of the story is.....but wasn't Jesus an innocent victim of Capital punishment?





Of course He was, but absolutely in the plan and purpose of God, far different from the 'death penalty' that is utilized in our society today. Even Pilate, who condemned Him knew He was innocent, yet condemned Him at the request of the Jews, and one might argue for political gain. But God had a more excellent plan a higher purpose to the event, and He used others, albeit unknowingly to carry out His will! And Jesus was very much aware of the plan. Now I know you know that, so  I'll just put a few scriptures here that came to mind when you mentioned this!  God Bless!

Matthew 27
22 Pilate said to them, "Then what shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?" They all said, "Let him be crucified!" 23 And he said, "Why, what evil has he done?" But they shouted all the more, "Let him be crucified!" Pilate Delivers Jesus to Be Crucified 24 So when Pilate saw that he was gaining nothing, but rather that a riot was beginning, he took water and washed his hands before the crowd, saying, "I am innocent of this man’s blood; see to it yourselves." 25 And all the people answered, "His blood be on us and on our children!" 

Isaiah 53:5
But He was wounded for our transgressions; He was crushed for our iniquities;upon Him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with His stripes we are healed.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For our sake He made Him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.


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## JB0704 (Sep 27, 2011)

formula1 said:


> Of course He was, but absolutely in the plan and purpose of God, far different from the 'death penalty' that is utilized in our society today. Even Pilate, who condemned Him knew He was innocent, yet condemned Him at the request of the Jews, and one might argue for political gain.



I know the purpose behind Jesus' role, but it was the actions of Pilot and the mob that had me thinking if there was any contemporary application.  "Little picture" type stuff.

Very early in this thread the concept of sanctioned vengeance was covered.  In the case of Jesus, we have an angry mob demanding an injustice in the name of justice, and a weak leader failing to stop them, and becoming complicit in the act.  Could we learn from their mistakes? 

I don't think we let the mob and Pilot "off the hook" just becuase Jesus knew what was happening.  Should we use this as an example of not letting our emotions rule our justice system?


Again, it was just a thought, I know the big picture behind the crucifixion.


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## formula1 (Sep 27, 2011)

*Re:*

Interesting thought!  Form a believer's perspective, emotion in our society should be easily tempered in our courts in a such a case and perhaps if we are committed to our Lord, we hopefully would not have the angry mob mentality over a life. Yet I do not expect that type of response from an unbeliever, though many would be equally reasonable.

The point in this story is God is on trial in the public square! Would our emotional response be any different today in reality if that were the case?  A few reads here and you will find that man's view of God is often on trial right here, and emotions run high! Yours and mine and others.  I try to temper my emotions with the truth of God's Word and put my trust in Him!  But I'm not sure I can expect others to do the same! Love is the key to understanding that a soul important to God rests on the words on the other side of this keyboard!  But now I am drifting from the subject, sorry!


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## Bama4me (Sep 27, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Again, I am not being sarcastic, but is the bar set to where everything have to be said twice for it to be relevant theologically?



A rule of biblical interpretation is that we should be very careful with an idea that only appears once in the New Testament.  Primarily, it has to do with the fact that an action COULD have been taken which was specific due to the case at hand.

Take this as an example.  Suppose the Bible didn't speak of anything related to money/wealth and a person read the account of Jesus and the rich young ruler.  If you look at Jesus' statement (sell all you have and give it to the poor), you could conceivably conclude that money is inherently evil.  Yet, the reason Jesus told him that was because money was standing in between him and a right relationship with God... not because money was "evil."  If we didn't have other passages to comment on it... we might easily get the wrong conclusion.

That's all I'm saying about John 8:1ff.  IF we saw other cases (even one more) where the same thing occured, I'd agree wholeheartedly with you.  However, I'm not going to take this one passage and conclude that Jesus was opposed to capital punishment... there's possibly more factors in play.

Regarding the idea of John 8:1ff being a legitimate part of Scripture... yes, one of the primary manuscript groups do not have it included.  That's why some versions of the Bible mark this passage as "the earliest manuscripts do not include John 7:53-8:11."  I'm not saying it should or shouldn't be included... but I am saying that it adds yet another reason why I'm skeptical in believing that Jesus was opposed to capital punishment.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 27, 2011)

Greaserbilly said:


> Matthew 18
> 
> 23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold[h] was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
> 
> ...


_

This post is perhaps more in keeping close to my heart. In my case, it is not one single verse or account that makes me decide my stance on the death penalty. It is all the verses and all the accounts. 

The gospels are about giving life, about God intervening in the history of the world to give life, not to take it away. 

As long as taking another persons life is a just remedy for injury, other than exceptional circumstances involving an individual and not the state, .... killing will never be a deterent to killing. For me to be 'saved' is the remedy to killing. 

There is no security in killing because the act itself points directly to insecurity. There is no peace in killing, killing points to insecurity and strife.

And about swift executions, they are the glee of tyrants and their maniacs. There is nothing like a swift improvised execution in a High School gymnasium in a libyan town to impress deterance to senior high students and staff... ( for real).

.................

Thou shalt not kill.

Why? It seems to me because spiritually we fall from grace if we sin as per the Ten Commandments... and the tempest of God's wrath follows._


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## thedeacon (Sep 27, 2011)

I could name on one hand the amount of people who are members of the church I attend that agree with me on this subject.

On this subject I am torn between my worldly thinking and my Christian thinking.

It is true there are a lot of people in this world that do not deserve to live.
It is true there are a lot of people in this world that would leave this world better off dead.
I have heard of people that have done things so terrible that some would rejoice at their leaving this world.

On the other hand I do realize that to wish them dead would be contrarery to everything that Christ teaches in his word.

On the mount where Jesus preached his great sermon he said, "blessed is he that mourns" we should be mourning for the sinners in this world to the extent that we pray continuously for their sins. There is something that holds us back from praying for the souls of those that commit murder, rape, mistreatment of people such as battery to spouses and children, "that brothers and sisters should not be".

The whole essence of Christianity is love and wheather you believe it or not we do not get to choose who we love and who we don't love.

How far does love and forgiveness go? It goes so far that I can't even understand it, its beyond me.

What do I think of the taking the life of another person? Well I will have to say it is not left up to me in any way, shape, form or fashion to take the life of another person unless it is self defense of myself or someone else and for me the jury is out on myself.

Just my opinion.  God bless


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## hummerpoo (Sep 28, 2011)

thedeacon said:


> I could name on one hand the amount of people who are members of the church I attend that agree with me on this subject.
> 
> On this subject I am torn between my worldly thinking and my Christian thinking.
> 
> ...



Well said.  I believe there is much of the Spirit in these thoughts.


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## Big7 (Oct 17, 2011)

*What Does The Bible Say About it?*

The Bible is often mentioned in debates about the death penalty. Supporters quote the Exodus passage, eye for eye, while opponents appeal to Ezekiel (33:11): "As I live, says the Lord God, I swear I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked man, but rather in the wicked man's conversion, that he may live." In fact, such use of the Bible (finding a "proof text" to affirm one's point of view) is inappropriate.

Scripture scholars teach us to understand the Bible (and its individual books) in historical context: when it was written and why. Thus considered, there is an ambivalence about capital punishment in the Scriptures. 

More HERE:
http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0195.asp

Politics HERE:
http://ncronline.org/news/justice/capital-punishment-conundrum-catholic-politicians

I'm Catholic, most of you know.
_I AM FOR _the death penalty in certain cases.

No problem with it.


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