# Is this what muzzleloading has come to?



## TarponStalker (Aug 28, 2021)

First of all I’m not bashing anyone for the method they use to hunt. Also I’m not trying to start an argument about what’s the best way to do things. 

Maybe it’s just an age thing. When I was in my teens during the 70s , muzzleloading gained a big resurgence in popularity.  Of course many of us back then considered Daniel Boone and Davy Crockett our heroes. Thompson Center and CVA  were very popular as they produced guns that were replicas of original muzzleloaders from the 18-19th century. 
Yes, many of us got into muzzleloading just to lengthen our hunting time but many enjoyed learning to load, shoot, build and clean these guns to add a challenge to the hunt. 

Along came the inline rifle. Now you no longer need to worry as much about moisture as you did with a flintlock or percussion rifle. Plus you can now add a scope, SS barrel, Load with modern bullets, powder and components.  Now it no longer even resembles a muzzleloader. 

It’s seems each year companies come up with more ways to make primitive weapons less primitive and less challenging. 
I also think money is the driving factor for these companies. They’ve now made it where newcomers to the sport only know about inlines and have no idea about using flintlock or percussion guns.  A real shame. 

I don’t think TC and CVA even build muzzleloaders anymore. 

This started bothering me when I met a fellow at a gun store buying an inline rifle. His friend told him that “real muzzleloaders “ only fire 50% of the time.  I politely informed him that his friend was mistaken and didn’t know the proper way to clean and load a muzzleloading rifle. 
I’m sorry for the rant. Again , I don’t care what others shoot but I hate to see what this has become. 
In my opinion if you’re gonna use the gadget advertised here in this pic you may as well use a 30-06 or .270

Rant over. Thanks for reading my long post.


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## BarnesAddict (Aug 28, 2021)

If you don't care what others shoot, then why the rant?

I've said this a million times, let the youngsters get involved, rather they start with a flint, or rather its a $3,500 custom muzzleloader, topped off with a $2,200 Nightforce scope.
Get them started FIRST no matter what rifle they choose.
Once started and they see an old timer like you or I shooting a side hammer, it interests them.  Ask them if they'd like to shoot it.   You'd be totally surprised at the number of modern inline rifle owners, who after the proper introduction to primitive rifles, own and shoot them too.

This same topic was a sore spot in the NMLRA for a number of years.  Arguments, RANTS, "I'll quit muzzleloading", I'll drop my membership" and all kinds of foolishness.

The NMLRA decided to embrace the modern inline and they now have their own aggs and its gaining popularity.   Check out NMLRA on youtube.

Way to many youngsters would rather set on their ask and play a game on their "smart phone", than to shoot or hunt.  We need all the youngsters, regardless what they or anyone else shoots.  To think not, is nothing but foolishness.....


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## NCHillbilly (Aug 28, 2021)

I don't like it at all. Hate me all you want. I don't even see the purpose or appeal of it. It ain't a muzzleloader, no matter what you call it. It's a rifle for people who don't like muzzleloaders, but want to hunt in muzzleloader season.


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## The Original Rooster (Aug 28, 2021)

I have nothing against inlines, but when shooting a muzzleloader starts becoming more like shooting a metallic blackpowder cartridge like that, I find it hard to call it a muzzleloader despite the bullet being loaded from the muzzle. NCHillbilly is right. They're being made for people who want to hunt muzzleloader season.


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## livinoutdoors (Aug 28, 2021)

I'll be honest with you here, i bought a cva wolf bare bones iron sights easy to load and shoot for one reason. They changed the weapons you could use for hunting hogs on public lands in winter. You used to be able to use centerfire after dec 1st, but nope, no more. So i bought an easy to use inline muzzleloader. I would prob never have bought any black powder rifle but for that reason. I like and respect the old ways more than most, but the government makes all these hoops to jump through, so folks jump.


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## Doctor Funkenstein (Aug 28, 2021)

> Might as well use a 30-06



If they could, they would. I don't know anyone who shoots muzzleloaders for the aesthetic reason (as you describe) who even owns an inline, let alone prefers one in muzzleloader season. But most hunters are in the season to fill the freezer - it's not about the gun or the method. Hence -



> The government makes all these hoops to jump through, so folks jump.



... And if the government weren't forcing these folks to do it, they would be quite happy to leave your/our anachronistic pursuits alone.


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## Mattval (Aug 28, 2021)

livinoutdoors said:


> I'll be honest with you here, i bought a cva wolf bare bones iron sights easy to load and shoot for one reason. They changed the weapons you could use for hunting hogs on public lands in winter. You used to be able to use centerfire after dec 1st, but nope, no more. So i bought an easy to use inline muzzleloader. I would prob never have bought any black powder rifle but for that reason. I like and respect the old ways more than most, but the government makes all these hoops to jump through, so folks jump.


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## Darkhorse (Aug 29, 2021)

I've shot thousands of rounds through my muzzleloaders, all round balls, not once have I shot lead bullet or a sabot.
I don't own and I've never shot an inline. Don't figure to ever do so.
And I'm happy with that.
Some peoples purchase of inlines are often influenced by an ignorant salesman selling to an ignorant buyer. Before I retired I worked in an office and in that office was me and another muzzleloader shooter who was also strictly traditional. And there was one in there who wanted a muzzleloader but knew nothing about them so he asked a ton of questions. We thought the only decision was flintlock or caplock.
Then one morning he announced, "I got me a new smokepole just like Daniel Boone and Davy Crockett used. And the salesman said this one doesn't use a piece of flint to fire, it uses a cap. So it goes off all the time not just every now and then."
I'll be the first to admit he got off on me. But he never stopped seeing himself as the reincarnation of a longhunter.

Me personally, I don't like them one bit. Lately there has been a lot threads having to do with inlines and when that happens my participation drops off to nearly nothing. I will admit they have every right to participate, just as I have every right not to.
It's too bad we can't get a traditional forum for us diehards.


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## BarnesAddict (Aug 29, 2021)

Darkhorse said:


> ...........
> It's too bad we can't get a traditional forum for us diehards.



If you google it, there are TONS of traditional muzzleloader sites and forums.  The administrator/owner of this site is certainly capable of adding one here.  Put on your buckskins and coon skin hat when asking


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## 4HAND (Aug 29, 2021)

Might as well include bows in this too.
Huge difference in a long bow, wooden arrows & flint arrowheads vs a compound bow/arrows or better yet, today's cross bows/bolts.
It doesn't bother me. To each his own.


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## NCHillbilly (Aug 29, 2021)

4HAND said:


> Might as well include bows in this too.
> Huge difference in a long bow, wooden arrows & flint arrowheads vs a compound bow/arrows or better yet, today's cross bows/bolts.
> It doesn't bother me. To each his own.


It doesn't bother me either. I just personally have no interest in or desire for an inline muzzleloader or a compound bow.


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## dwhee87 (Aug 29, 2021)

I hunt with an inline. Was able to get into the sport (all in) to try it for right around $200 vs $400+ just for a rifle if I wanted to buy a traditional ML. If I end up liking it long term, I may choose to upgrade to a traditional rifle. I liken it to someone deciding to try golf. Am I gonna go out and buy a $1500 set of clubs to see if I like it?


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## The Original Rooster (Aug 29, 2021)

dwhee87 said:


> I hunt with an inline. Was able to get into the sport (all in) to try it for right around $200 vs $400+ just for a rifle if I wanted to buy a traditional ML. If I end up liking it long term, I may choose to upgrade to a traditional rifle. I liken it to someone deciding to try golf. Am I gonna go out and buy a $1500 set of clubs to see if I like it?


I don't think the issue is a modern inline muzzleloader (which I have no problem with) as much as it is these preloaded plastic cartridges that contain everything but the bullet so that they can still call it a muzzleloader. It's really not a muzzle loader as much as it is a plastic black powder cartridge. That's just my opinion.


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## Nicodemus (Aug 29, 2021)

4HAND said:


> Might as well include bows in this too.
> Huge difference in a long bow, wooden arrows & flint arrowheads vs a compound bow/arrows or better yet, today's cross bows/bolts.
> It doesn't bother me. To each his own.




It wasn`t that long ago that compound bows were not legal to hunt deer with here in Georgia. And when they were made legal, you could only use one during rifle season for a couple of years.


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## The Original Rooster (Aug 29, 2021)

Nicodemus said:


> It wasn`t that long ago that compound bows were not legal to hunt deer with here in Georgia. And when they were made legal, you could only use one during rifle season for a couple of years.


I think I remember a little bit of that time period.


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## 4HAND (Aug 29, 2021)

Nicodemus said:


> It wasn`t that long ago that compound bows were not legal to hunt deer with here in Georgia. And when they were made legal, you could only use one during rifle season for a couple of years.


The same here with crossbows. You used to need a handicap permit.


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## antharper (Aug 29, 2021)

I have all 4 , inline , 40 year old Hawken , bow and a crossbow ! And I enjoy all 4 . But you are correct , my inline with a scope is just a single shot rifle that takes a little longer to load . I bought it to hunt a very large piece of public land that doesn’t allow rifles and have had quite a bit of success with it . And yes this is what muzzle loading has come to for quite a lot of hunters .


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## formula1 (Aug 29, 2021)

I prefer my in-line over my .308.  Used to have a .44 for short range but the muzzleloader is more fun than both. I really don’t care what anyone shoots. Just do what right for you and legal!


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## buckpasser (Aug 29, 2021)

I must admit, I too got a muzzleloader because I like more deer season, not because I liked primitive weapons. I see the pride you guys who are into the true primitive have for it, and I respect that!  Just remember, we all draw our lines in different places.  I’ve hunted with guys that would blast quail on the ground and ducks on the water.  I might look down my nose at them too, but it’s all just rules and ethics we put on ourselves within the law.


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## GeorgiaBob (Aug 29, 2021)

It wouldn't bother me if they changed the law and limited the ML season to flintlocks with a minimum barrel length of 30 inches. I look at the smokestick season as an opportunity to wander around with a loaded flintlock long rifle and enjoy myself.

Some folks are gonna read a law and try to figure out how they can twist the language so they can do what they want instead of what the legislature intended. If they are obeying the law as written, are not endangering anyone, are not ruining hunting for others, and are happy with what they are doing, then I am not going to blow a gasket worrying about their choices.


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## lampern (Aug 29, 2021)

The good thing is these Firesticks are virtually unobtainium right now and this gun will eventually flop if its not already flopping.

Also 30 dollars for 10 shots.


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## BarnesAddict (Aug 29, 2021)

lampern said:


> The good thing is these Firesticks are virtually unobtainium right now and this gun will eventually flop if its not already flopping.
> 
> Also 30 dollars for 10 shots.


Wal-Marts are full of those things.


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## jiminbogart (Aug 29, 2021)

Y'all will really hate this. I've got a semi auto ML. Too lazy to go to the safe so I culled a pic off of DDG.


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## Big7 (Aug 29, 2021)

NCHillbilly said:


> I don't like it at all. Hate me all you want. I don't even see the purpose or appeal of it. It ain't a muzzleloader, no matter what you call it. It's a rifle for people who don't like muzzleloaders, but want to hunt in muzzleloader season.


I figured you would post by the second or third post! ? And... I agree with you totally. Adding: season should start the same day for everyone no matter if you use a 155 Howitzer or a David and Goliath type sling.

What has happened here is as exactly as you describe. That thing in the OP pic is nothing more than a shotgun shell.

Might as well open up a season for shotgun.
To warm for me in "primitive" and "bow" season.

BTW.. Modern compound and compound crossbows are not really "primitive" either. ?

That's another thread tho.. ?


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## kmckinnie (Aug 29, 2021)

I wish I had one them fancy pants MLs!7
?


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## lampern (Aug 29, 2021)

BarnesAddict said:


> Wal-Marts are full of those things.



Hardly find them online.

Folks like that kind of convenience than fighting the crowds at China Mart


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## BarnesAddict (Aug 29, 2021)




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## coolbreezeroho (Aug 30, 2021)

Guilty here of having an inline


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## BarnesAddict (Aug 30, 2021)

coolbreezeroho said:


> Guilty here of having an inline


Guilty of what???

Most, not all traditionalists are guilty of the 'my way itis'.  They're the same people that are using a $1,000 smart phone, or a lap top, high tech electronics, to post all their 'itis' remarks online.  They use everything modern, yet when it comes to  muzzleloaders, they have one method and mind set.  'If'n it ain't traditional, it ain't a muzzleloader'.  Selfishness at its finest ..............

If everyone were required to go only to traditional, if you think hunter numbers are dropping like rocks now across the nation, watch what would happen then.

Say what you will, and some absolutely will but, when the largest muzzleloader organization in the world, the NMLRA, gladly accepts modern inline rifles, and created many shoots for them, at least they realized how to keep the sport going.  Even the NMLRA member numbers were dropping.  Thankfully things turned around.

For me personally.........   It matters not rather someone shoots a flint, percussion, or a $5,000 modern custom inline rifle.  I'm not going to try running what I do down everybody else's throats.  I support ALL methods of loading a bullet down the barrel and I'll help anyone anytime I can, regardless of their style of muzzleloader.


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## jiminbogart (Aug 30, 2021)

I've got an inline that I won at a Wheelin' Sportsman banquet.

I prefer my Thompson Geryhawk(love that thing) or my O/U double barrel Pedersoli.

They are both percussion though. I have a hard enough time using a Bic lighter. Don't want no flint.


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## lampern (Aug 30, 2021)

BarnesAddict said:


> View attachment 1101259



Doesn’t look like they are selling well?

Either way the gun  will flop unless more different manufacturers are brought onboard

It’s a boutique concept and rifle with a lot of lobbying money behind it


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## Deernut3 (Aug 30, 2021)

I own and hunt with a scoped inline simply because the law allows me too. If flintlocks were all that was legal I would be hunting with one. I think the liberal definition of primitive weapons is simply to encourage more hunter participation from rifle hunters as young folks these days are not choosing to hunt as much as they did a couple decades ago.


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## The Original Rooster (Aug 30, 2021)

Deernut3 said:


> I think the liberal definition of primitive weapons is simply to encourage more hunter participation from rifle hunters as young folks these days are not choosing to hunt as much as they did a couple decades ago.


I think you may have hit on it exactly right there.


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## TJay (Aug 30, 2021)

I have an inline and I have a Hawken reproduction and I've killed deer and other stuff with them both.  I was against allowing scopes on ML's but once it was ok'd I bought one.  I figured once you got a scoped inline it was just a matter of time before technology transformed it into the equivalent of a single shot centerfire.  At least with iron sights our range was limited as to how well we could see that front bead and that bead looks about the size of a soccer ball at 90 to 100 yards.  It kind of leveled the playing field between inlines and sidelocks.  Modern optics skewed that playing field. If it went back to to caplocks and flintlocks next year I'd be ok with it.  But is won't.  Just my two cents worth.


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## The Original Rooster (Aug 30, 2021)

Being that the government loves to regulate things, I wonder if the BATF will review muzzleloaders and begin regulating them based on how they're loaded? 
The Firestick mentioned in the OP is essentially a plastic blackpowder cartridge without a bullet that is loaded through the breech and the bullet is the only thing loaded through the muzzle. I'm not super familiar with every modern inline but are there any other that load this way or do most of the others require pellets or powder dropped in from the muzzle? I know that some open at the breech to place the primer or cap but not the powder.


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## Nicodemus (Aug 30, 2021)

.....


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## JustUs4All (Aug 30, 2021)

I have a duplicate of the one @jiminbogart posted a pic of in post #30.  I also have an even shorter version, a Tree Hawk, that was done up in camo.  I love both of them.  I have a scoped Wolf because of aging eyes.  I have enjoyed shooting and hunting with them all.  When "rifle" season comes in I have and use a couple of those too.  I even have some stick slingers because I like to shoot them as well but I ain't good enough to trust myself with one on a deer.

Just hunt and shoot whatever ya brung.  It's all about enjoying the hunt and hopefully getting some really good food.


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## lampern (Aug 30, 2021)

RoosterTodd said:


> Being that the government loves to regulate things, I wonder if the BATF will review muzzleloaders and begin regulating them based on how they're loaded?
> The Firestick mentioned in the OP is essentially a plastic blackpowder cartridge without a bullet that is loaded through the breech and the bullet is the only thing loaded through the muzzle. I'm not super familiar with every modern inline but are there any other that load this way or do most of the others require pellets or powder dropped in from the muzzle? I know that some open at the breech to place the primer or cap but not the powder.



There is a specific definition of 'antique firearm' in federal law and a gun either meets it or it does not.

Because felons can own an antique firearm, it is very hard to get the definition changed by Congress.


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## The Original Rooster (Aug 30, 2021)

lampern said:


> There is a specific definition of 'antique firearm' in federal law and a gun either meets it or it does not.
> 
> Because felons can own an antique firearm, it is very hard to get the definition changed by Congress.


Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking and kinda where I was going with this. I guess the question really is, when does a muzzleloader become a black powder firearm and not just a muzzleloader? Right now for most intents and purposes, as long as the bullet is loaded through the muzzle, it's a muzzleloader.


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## lampern (Aug 30, 2021)

> Right now for most intents and purposes, as long as the bullet is loaded through the muzzle, it's a muzzleloader.



Thats up to each state or territory in their rules and laws.


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## The Original Rooster (Aug 30, 2021)

lampern said:


> Thats up to each state or territory in their rules and laws.


Now that you mention it, I think some states do have some odd muzzleloader laws. Pennsylvania comes to mind for some reason. I'll have to read up on that.


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## Ruger#3 (Aug 30, 2021)

I suppose I'm not a traditionalist. When I had a ML it was a Hawken reproduction. Though I shot it with open sights I used sabots back 25 years ago. That 325 grain Barnes hollow point that rode in that sleeve was the same bullet I used in my 45/70. Even with open sights it was basically a single shot rifle.


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## dwhee87 (Aug 30, 2021)

I guess bringing up the Maxim Suppressed .50 cal ML would be adding fuel to the fire....


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## lampern (Aug 30, 2021)

RoosterTodd said:


> Now that you mention it, I think some states do have some odd muzzleloader laws. Pennsylvania comes to mind for some reason. I'll have to read up on that.



Colorado I believe has odd laws


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## Hillbilly stalker (Aug 30, 2021)

P.A used to say flintlock only…..no optics. Some states allow optics but with no magnification. You can buy 2-3 in lines for the price of a new flintlock.As long as it’s legal, shoot it. Some bush crafters are using single shot shotguns, they cut the hull, put in a new primer, load them down the barrel with powder, wad and shot and another sheep’s wool wad. It boils down to how you load them not the ignition source or load. I have side hammers with caps and a couple in lines. I enjoy both, I hope yall have fun with yours.


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## dwhee87 (Aug 30, 2021)

lampern said:


> Colorado I believe has odd laws


Colorado does not allow scopes on MLs. Iron sights, only.


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## TJay (Aug 30, 2021)

dwhee87 said:


> Colorado does not allow scopes on MLs. Iron sights, only.


Utah too.


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## JB0704 (Aug 30, 2021)

TarponStalker said:


> In my opinion if you’re gonna use the gadget advertised here in this pic you may as well use a 30-06 or .270



The one week muzzle loader season has been used for that purpose as long as it's been around.  It's like a rifle season bonus round for Billy.


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## ThatredneckguyJamie (Aug 30, 2021)

to me it aint really fishing if you use anything but bamboo poles with catgut or silk worm line with your hand carved bone hooks...


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## lampern (Aug 30, 2021)

JB0704 said:


> The one week muzzle loader season has been used for that purpose as long as it's been around.  It's like a rifle season bonus round for Billy.



Youth hunters in Georgia can use any legal gun that week, right?


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## JB0704 (Aug 30, 2021)

lampern said:


> Youth hunters in Georgia can use any legal gun that week, right?



Right.  But I’m not referring to youth hunters.


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## chehawknapper (Aug 31, 2021)

Nicodemus said:


> It wasn`t that long ago that compound bows were not legal to hunt deer with here in Georgia. And when they were made legal, you could only use one during rifle season for a couple of years.


Compounds - are you talking about sinew backed/horn belly double curve or just those beginner bows with training wheels on the ends??


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## Nicodemus (Aug 31, 2021)

chehawknapper said:


> Compounds - are you talking about sinew backed/horn belly double curve or just those beginner bows with training wheels on the ends??




Compound arrow flinging devices.


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## NCHillbilly (Aug 31, 2021)

Nicodemus said:


> Compound arrow flinging devices.


I call them mechanical arrow launching devices.


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## Browning Slayer (Aug 31, 2021)

Why do people limit themselves to just one way to kill a deer? I've got them all and killed deer with them all. Hmmm... Haven't tried to kill one with a sword or spear yet.. 

I love my new CVA Optima.. That thing can drive tacks with 300grain bullets..


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## NCHillbilly (Aug 31, 2021)

Browning Slayer said:


> Why do people limit themselves to just one way to kill a deer? I've got them all and killed deer with them all. Hmmm... Haven't tried to kill one with a sword or spear yet..
> 
> I love my new CVA Optima.. That thing can drive tacks with 300grain bullets..


I  kill deer with all kinds of stuff, up to AR-15s. If I'm gonna hunt with a muzzleloader, I'm gonna hunt with a real muzzleloader, though. It's just me and what I enjoy.


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## Browning Slayer (Aug 31, 2021)

NCHillbilly said:


> I  kill deer with all kinds of stuff, up to AR-15s. If I'm gonna hunt with a muzzleloader, I'm gonna hunt with a real muzzleloader, though. It's just me and what I enjoy.


Running them down with my truck got to expensive.


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## NCHillbilly (Aug 31, 2021)

Browning Slayer said:


> Running them down with my truck got to expensive.


Ranch Hand.


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## trad bow (Aug 31, 2021)

Nicodemus said:


> Compound arrow flinging devices.


I call them lots of things but a bow is not one of them.


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## Jim Boyd (Aug 31, 2021)

Here is what I don’t get - many people choose to hunt with archery all season long but yet I do not see any of them disparaging hunters who use 7mm Mag when it is legal to do so. 

Why in the world would we feel put out or put upon because someone used a legal weapon?

It does not change ANYTHING for YOU but yet people hate it. 

Wanna be traditional?

Do it. If you like it, I love it. 

Has the deer herd been negatively affected by ML hunts?

If not, I honestly do not get it.


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## jiminbogart (Sep 1, 2021)

Found this pic looking for something last night.

I have two inlines. I can't recall when/where I got the second one. Since it has a scope I must have bought it for my daughter. She killed two bucks with it on opening day when she was 11. 



A better shot of the rotating barrel O/U. Sights on both barrels.


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## lampern (Sep 1, 2021)

> Has the deer herd been negatively affected by ML hunts?



Yes, in some states and some areas, including the national forests of Georgia

You go to parts of Kentucky and they restrict what you can kill during muzzleloading deer season

Some deer managers are recognizing muzzleloader season as no different than "gun" season.


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## JustUs4All (Sep 1, 2021)

So, how many deer were killed by muzzleloaders on National Forests in GA during primative weapons season?


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## lampern (Sep 1, 2021)

JustUs4All said:


> So, how many deer were killed by muzzleloaders on National Forests in GA during primative weapons season?



Good question but the DNR shut down all either-sex muzzleloading hunting on the large chunk of the national forest.

Bucks only hunting with the muzzleloader.


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## Nicodemus (Sep 1, 2021)

The only time muzzleloaders have affected the deer herd was during the hide trade.


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## Mark R (Sep 1, 2021)

i got a breech loading centerfire single shot rifle . Might as well make it legal for primitive weapon season . be OK with me . Or just open season at the same time and use whatever ya want too and be happy .


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## Nicodemus (Sep 1, 2021)

Mark R said:


> i got a breech loading centerfire single shot rifle . Might as well make it legal for primitive weapon season . be OK with me . Or just open season at the same time and use whatever ya want too and be happy .




What kind is it?


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## Throwback (Sep 2, 2021)

4HAND said:


> Might as well include bows in this too.
> Huge difference in a long bow, wooden arrows & flint arrowheads vs a compound bow/arrows or better yet, today's cross bows/bolts.
> It doesn't bother me. To each his own.


“That’s different”


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## Throwback (Sep 2, 2021)

Next thing you know folks will be hunting over bait legally


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## trad bow (Sep 2, 2021)

Throwback said:


> Next thing you know folks will be hunting over bait legally


I don’t call that hunting.


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## pacecars (Sep 2, 2021)

What we need is several seasons:
Primitive muzzleloader season
Inline muzzleloader season
Breech loading season (bp or substitute, loose or paper cartridges)
Single shot BPCR season
Single shot modern rifle season
Lever action season
Etc, etc

Won’t even get into archery


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## Throwback (Sep 2, 2021)

pacecars said:


> What we need is several seasons:
> Primitive muzzleloader season
> Inline muzzleloader season
> Breech loading season (bp or substitute, loose or paper cartridges)
> ...


And the ONLY thing you can use that “season” is the legal definition of what constitutes each of those. No archery all season either.


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## Doctor Funkenstein (Sep 2, 2021)

Actually I don't think there's any good reason to separate seasons by weapon type; it seems arbitrary and silly to me. The state should define what is a legal weapon, and the season begins in September and proceeds from there, everyone with a tag can have at it.

I'm not a wildlife manager tho, and if I were, and knew the job, my answer might be different.


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## pacecars (Sep 2, 2021)

Florida has changed the rules this year that rifles that load from the breech may be used in “Muzzleloader” season. I guess they need to change the name


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## Darkhorse (Sep 3, 2021)

I kinda wish they would do away with muzzle loader season altogether. I seldom hunt the ML season, still too hot and buggy. I hunt with a flintlock 95% or more of the regular gun season. I hunt for bucks mostly and the best time is during the rut not the middle of october or whenever the ML season is nowadays.
I'm comfortable hunting with my flintlocks with primitive open sights during the prime hunting days. As in all hunting, you miss some, you hit some. Mostly I hit them because without a scope they must be closer so it's seldom I'll risk a bad shot.
But  I like my centerfires also. So if I want to hunt with a scoped rifle I'll just grab one from the safe.
The situation often dictates which type I'll hunt with. I try to setup so my shots will be under 100 yards preferably 50 and under, prime distance with a flinter. But sometimes the shot will be much longer and with thicker underbrush to slip a bullet through. That's when the centerfires get their chance.
Nowhere in my Georgia deer hunting do I see a use for a scoped ML.


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## NCHillbilly (Sep 3, 2021)

Darkhorse said:


> I kinda wish they would do away with muzzle loader season altogether. I seldom hunt the ML season, still too hot and buggy. I hunt with a flintlock 95% or more of the regular gun season. I hunt for bucks mostly and the best time is during the rut not the middle of october or whenever the ML season is nowadays.
> I'm comfortable hunting with my flintlocks with primitive open sights during the prime hunting days. As in all hunting, you miss some, you hit some. Mostly I hit them because without a scope they must be closer so it's seldom I'll risk a bad shot.
> But  I like my centerfires also. So if I want to hunt with a scoped rifle I'll just grab one from the safe.
> The situation often dictates which type I'll hunt with. I try to setup so my shots will be under 100 yards preferably 50 and under, prime distance with a flinter. But sometimes the shot will be much longer and with thicker underbrush to slip a bullet through. That's when the centerfires get their chance.
> Nowhere in my Georgia deer hunting do I see a use for a scoped ML.


That’s just like your opinion, man.


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## NCHillbilly (Sep 3, 2021)

Doctor Funkenstein said:


> Actually I don't think there's any good reason to separate seasons by weapon type; it seems arbitrary and silly to me. The state should define what is a legal weapon, and the season begins in September and proceeds from there, everyone with a tag can have at it.
> 
> I'm not a wildlife manager tho, and if I were, and knew the job, my answer might be different.


I do. The original idea of primitive weapons seasons was for people who hunted with primitive weapons. Now the man bun fellers have got it so that primitive weapons include modern weapons so they can hunt too. I agree that it doesn’t make much sense any more if you can hunt with modern weapons in the primitive weapons season.


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## Throwback (Sep 3, 2021)




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## Darkhorse (Sep 3, 2021)

NCHillbilly said:


> That’s just like your opinion, man.


I'm not sure how to take your statement, could be taken a couple of ways.
But I know full well what the Muzzleloading season was supposed to be. Around 1979 I signed a petition asking the state to give us a season. I believe that was signed at the winter rondevous of The Cherokee County Barkbusters. I was asked to, and did, take a petition home and gathered many signatures.
That sorta puts me in the game early on I guess.
What we have now is not what was invisioned back then.
Of course there have been technological breakthroughs we couldn't have even dreamed of since then that  have impacted the entire ML hunting process greatly. If we had known what was coming perhaps we'd have taken a different course.
But for those who stand on the other side of the fence, don't worry about anything we say, us old geezers will soon be gone under never to bother you again.


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## NCHillbilly (Sep 3, 2021)

Darkhorse said:


> I'm not sure how to take your statement, could be taken a couple of ways.
> But I know full well what the Muzzleloading season was supposed to be. Around 1979 I signed a petition asking the state to give us a season. I believe that was signed at the winter rondevous of The Cherokee County Barkbusters. I was asked to, and did, take a petition home and gathered many signatures.
> That sorta puts me in the game early on I guess.
> What we have now is not what was invisioned back then.
> ...


Here’s how to take my statement: I like having a muzzleloader season. Here, it’s in early October, which is the perfect time to be in the woods. Frosty mornings, warm days, colorful leaves, deer on an acorn pattern. And most importantly, public land isn’t infested with thousands of punkin- suit rifle hunters. I ml hunt in rifle season too pretty often, but it just isn’t the same at all.


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## livinoutdoors (Sep 4, 2021)

I think we should manage seasons by experience level not weapons. So new folks get the first week or two, then folks with some kills, and then finally the people who know how to kill a deer just by lookin at it.?


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## GeorgiaBob (Sep 4, 2021)

livinoutdoors said:


> I think we should manage seasons by experience level not weapons. So new folks get the first week or two, then folks with some kills, and then finally the people who know how to kill a deer just by lookin at it.?




I never have mastered that last bit - and believe me, I have put the death stare on more than a few bucks who were standing just a step too far. I even but a double death look on a giant buck who walked into the road as I was putting my smoke pole back in the trunk and all he did was whuff and amble across the lane! What might I be doing wrong?


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## livinoutdoors (Sep 4, 2021)

GeorgiaBob said:


> I never have mastered that last bit - and believe me, I have put the death stare on more than a few bucks who were standing just a step too far. I even but a double death look on a giant buck who walked into the road as I was putting my smoke pole back in the trunk and all he did was whuff and amble across the lane! What might I be doing wrong?


Dunno cant say im at that level myself! ??


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## Jim Boyd (Sep 4, 2021)

lampern said:


> Yes, in some states and some areas, including the national forests of Georgia
> 
> You go to parts of Kentucky and they restrict what you can kill during muzzleloading deer season
> 
> Some deer managers are recognizing muzzleloader season as no different than "gun" season.




Here is the problem with that theory -

We might know that the deer herd is down (it is down in SC also and for a great part of the state, our gun season starts on 15 August - so ML have nothing to do with the decline) but absent the data of what % of the deer were killed with ML - it could be that multiple factors are the reason “why”. 

Loss of habitat
Hardwood replaced by pine
Liberal bag limits
Loss of tillable / food
More hunters
Etc

I won’t rule out more effective weapons, though. 

Excellent compound bows
Crossbows
ML’ers
Highly accurate centerfires
Range finders
Excellent glass

None of these genies are going back in the bottle, IMHO - so the best thing to do is simply to get over it. 

Same arguments could be made for bass fishing. Boats, rods and reels, trolling motors that are smart, electronics that are out of this world and so forth.

Just know that things evolve and get over it. 

I hunt most of my season (SC and IL) with a crosssbow - that many would rail against - but I rarely hunt with a centerfire. Some years, I never pick up a gun. So does that mean I feel badly for using a “new fangled” crossbow?

I don’t, in the least, feel badly about it - and am not going to change my viewpoint.


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## JustUs4All (Sep 4, 2021)

GeorgiaBob said:


> I never have mastered that last bit - and believe me, I have put the death stare on more than a few bucks who were standing just a step too far. I even but a double death look on a giant buck who walked into the road as I was putting my smoke pole back in the trunk and all he did was whuff and amble across the lane! What might I be doing wrong?



Not enough practice.  Go at it with yourself in the mirror in the bathroom.  When you can no longer even glance at the mirror when you enter the room for other reasons you are getting close.


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## lampern (Sep 4, 2021)

Most of SC has any legal weapons season.

Which makes sense to me.


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## trial&error (Sep 4, 2021)

I prefer the cap and ball though I bought an inline with stainless barrel because it was priced right and I wasn't really looking for one.  I have an old hawken that i clean religiously as well as revolvers and single shot pistols.  I mainly bought it for when I don't clean them regularly.  I'll still have a nearly new inline that should last me and my son all of our days.  We cast our own balls and could make our own powder if need be.


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## Darkhorse (Sep 5, 2021)

NCHillbilly said:


> Here’s how to take my statement: I like having a muzzleloader season. Here, it’s in early October, which is the perfect time to be in the woods. Frosty mornings, warm days, colorful leaves, deer on an acorn pattern. And most importantly, public land isn’t infested with thousands of punkin- suit rifle hunters. I ml hunt in rifle season too pretty often, but it just isn’t the same at all.



I guess I'm confused but I thought you lived and hunted in North Carolina?


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## fflintlock (Sep 5, 2021)

In my mind, deer hunting has become just like anything else, it's all about the money. The newest this, that and the other just to kill a deer. All lobbied for by corperations that manufacture those goods. Go ahead and think about that. 
Primitive hunts should be just that, primitive.
Primitive is a way of hunting, with specific weapons, primitive weapons. Not an extension of modern day firearms. 
I really don't care what you use when you hunt. I on the other hand know why I hunt and know how to use what I hunt with. I'm not a trophey hunter, I don't own expensive gadgets to use in hunting. I'm a simple man with simple tools for a simple need...


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## NCHillbilly (Sep 6, 2021)

Darkhorse said:


> I guess I'm confused but I thought you lived and hunted in North Carolina?


I do. I also have a place about halfway down the SC/GA line and I hunt down there a lot, too. The same applies there. Early October ML, good hunting, pleasant time to be in the woods.


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## hunter 85 (Sep 6, 2021)

I say they should just open the season as hunting season and people use what ever flipping means they want to hunt with and quit worrying about what the person on the other property are using. I personally have no care to use a cap an ball or flintlock and if they made the law as to that is what is needed to be used I would put my inlines in the closet and hunt with my bow as I have done for many years before I owned an in-line but I definitely would not be bitter about it.


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## 01Foreman400 (Sep 12, 2021)

Great post!  With that being said…….I’m looking forward to 10/9.  My favorite time of the year.  I’ve got the whole week off to hunt.  That Barnes T-EZ bullet traveling 2,151 fps (average of 6 shots I chronographed) out of my inline is devastating on whitetails.  I use it some even after rifle season gets here but I don’t sit there hating everyone who carries a centerfire rifle those days. ?

A few my T/C Omega has killed.  I’ve included a picture of it as well. ?

Good luck to everyone this season no matter what your toting in the woods.


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## earlthegoat2 (Sep 12, 2021)

I think they should extend ML season and get rid of all “special” seasons.


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## pacecars (Sep 12, 2021)

One of the reasons that some game departments have added modern muzzleloaders and even straight wall cartridge guns to the season is because they were not getting the harvest numbers they wanted. There are only so many “buckskin” clad hunters out there


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## lampern (Sep 12, 2021)

earlthegoat2 said:


> I think they should extend ML season and get rid of all “special” seasons.



There is no biological reason for special seasons anymore.

Safety reasons for areas around Atlanta or Macon? Sure.

But not biological anymore.


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## 7 point (Sep 12, 2021)

4HAND said:


> The same here with crossbows. You used to need a handicap permit.


I remember that.


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## earlthegoat2 (Sep 14, 2021)

The thing with MLs is they are not user friendly if you only have ever known about cartridge firearms. The Strikefire takes that learning curve and makes it much easier and faster to use effectively and safely even if it is a pretty far cry from anything traditional.

You don’t need to know about different brands or types of powders or charge weights or pellets vs loose. You just take the fire stick and load it into the breach like a single shot break action and ram the bullet (most likely and easy to load typ bullet). Traditions and Federal tell you all you need to know by buying their prepared powder charges and bullets.

Takes all the need to read up and research out of the picture. It’s a perfect product for the society we are evolving into. Instant gratification with the least amount of effort. My dad has always said, if you want to be rich, invent something that can make people lazier. Then he uses the TV remote control as an example. Ive noticed you can probably get more rich by making already lazy people even lazier.

Not to say anyone buying a Strikefire is lazy as it is an intriguing product. I myself have several modern muzzleloaders and don’t particularly consider myself lazy. Modern MLs can be very user friendly and convenient to effectively take game.

I am not a pellets type of ML shooter though. I use loose powder always and have researched and learned how to use it correctly as many here also have. I buy my sabots and bullets separately so I can have greater control over the bullets I use as opposed to buying the “canned” bullets the ML manufacturers market. Nothing wrong with any of it though. I just get a little more into the process.

So far this year I am shooting my 58 cal Hawken right on and haven’t touched an in-line.  It’s shooting good for me with the open sights and PRB at 60 yds.  It should be a winner this year.


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## ddd-shooter (Sep 14, 2021)

livinoutdoors said:


> I think we should manage seasons by experience level not weapons. So new folks get the first week or two, then folks with some kills, and then finally the people who know how to kill a deer just by lookin at it.?





hunter 85 said:


> I say they should just open the season as hunting season and people use what ever flipping means they want to hunt with and quit worrying about what the person on the other property are using. I personally have no care to use a cap an ball or flintlock and if they made the law as to that is what is needed to be used I would put my inlines in the closet and hunt with my bow as I have done for many years before I owned an in-line but I definitely would not be bitter about it.





lampern said:


> There is no biological reason for special seasons anymore.
> Safety reasons for areas around Atlanta or Macon? Sure.
> But not biological anymore.



Actually, it WAS supposed to be a distinct season for those who wanted to do something MORE difficult. (A strange concept nowadays, I know) It has since became much, much less difficult. 

Except, it went like this "Let's reward those who have a particular set of skills, and/or those who want to develop them and give them "bonus" times to hunt deer. It will encourage more participation, and since these weapons are not as lethal, won't impact the harvest numbers as drastically. So there was/is a small biological reason. It "should" allow more hunters in the woods for longer times, without increasing the harvest as much as rifle seasons, but as you said, not anymore. Too much innovation. 


I don't understand the notion of "let's make everything as easy as possible." "It's for the kids! How will they learn to hunt without it?" 

How's that working out for us? We have the laziest generation of hunters in history and marvel when little Johnny doesn't get thrilled when he puts down his video game in his shooting house to shoot the deer that stepped out to visit the corn feeder...
Why can't these kids fall in love with hunting like I did? 
Because you're not showing them what you had when you grew up. You're showing them this aberration we have nowadays... 
Rant over.


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## livinoutdoors (Sep 14, 2021)

ddd-shooter said:


> Actually, it WAS supposed to be a distinct season for those who wanted to do something MORE difficult. (A strange concept nowadays, I know) It has since became much, much less difficult.
> 
> Except, it went like this "Let's reward those who have a particular set of skills, and/or those who want to develop them and give them "bonus" times to hunt deer. It will encourage more participation, and since these weapons are not as lethal, won't impact the harvest numbers as drastically. So there was/is a small biological reason. It "should" allow more hunters in the woods for longer times, without increasing the harvest as much as rifle seasons, but as you said, not anymore. Too much innovation.
> 
> ...


Uhhhh, my post was meant as a joke! I think ol flintlocks n caplocks are beyond cool. I love pretty much anything that has a bit of history involved. Like i said in my post before that one, i only have an inline to hunt hogs on public land since they changed the rules to ban centerfire. If they banned inlines i guess i would go back to my 22lr.


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## BarnesAddict (Sep 14, 2021)

People and their lives are NOT the same as those of us older folks.  Lazy generation?  To some extent maybe but, when I started hunting as a child, I'd start out in the morning from the farm, and I might end up 5 miles or more from home.  I'd cross farm after farm, maybe even hunt with one of the neighbors.  l'd walk out to a road and start heading home.  Someone would always stop and pick me up, make sure my firearm was unloaded and take me home.   How would that work out today in the majority of the country????
Next the large properties or farms in many areas have been chopped up and sold off.  10 acres here, 20 acres there, 5 acres here, or a darn subdivision now in place.  City folk moved to the country to find THEIR little piece of country and by God its THEIRS!  Don't you dare cross that property line.  You do not have permission to retrieve game if its on my property and a whole list of other "do not disturb me" lines.
Some hunters hunting over large agricultural fields must shoot long range.  Others have to kill an animal DRT because of "that" neighbor.

EVERYONE has to set back and think about how others may hunt and not be so selfish.  That gets no one anywhere and only divides the numbers.  You boys that have hunted in the mountains all your lives, have no clue what its like to hunt over a 200 or 400 acre agricultural field/s.  Try your Davy Crocket sneaking on a buck that came out of a corner 300yds away over a picked bean field.  The does will instantly spot you and they'll all be gone.
Likewise, the guys that have hunted open fields all their lives, know nothing about the guys hunting mountains and certainly anyone that hunts in the swamps.

If you have a problem with Billy Bob hunting with a modern inline rifle, you have the problem not Billy Bob.   That your way or the highway stuff is nothing but selfishness.


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## Nicodemus (Sep 14, 2021)

BarnesAddict said:


> People and their lives are NOT the same as those of us older folks.  Lazy generation?  To some extent maybe but, when I started hunting as a child, I'd start out in the morning from the farm, and I might end up 5 miles or more from home.  I'd cross farm after farm, maybe even hunt with one of the neighbors.  l'd walk out to a road and start heading home.  Someone would always stop and pick me up, make sure my firearm was unloaded and take me home.   How would that work out today in the majority of the country????
> Next the large properties or farms in many areas have been chopped up and sold off.  10 acres here, 20 acres there, 5 acres here, or a darn subdivision now in place.  City folk moved to the country to find THEIR little piece of country and by God its THEIRS!  Don't you dare cross that property line.  You do not have permission to retrieve game if its on my property and a whole list of other "do not disturb me" lines.
> Some hunters hunting over large agricultural fields must shoot long range.  Others have to kill an animal DRT because of "that" neighbor.
> 
> ...




That`s how I was raised, down here in the Southern river swamps. My uncle owned an island in the Oconee River between Wheeler and Montgomery Counties, couple of hundred acres of virgin timber. He wouldn`t post it. Said that when he died he wanted friends and locals to come to his funeral. The big river swamp that surrounded our place was hunted by everybody. When the paper company that finally bought it offered our families first option to lease it, my older cousin leased it and he wouldn`t post it either, for the same reason. He paid for the lease and never said a word to family, friends, or strangers about hunting it. In his words, 'Everybody deserves a place to hunt". 

The hunting world was a better place because of men like them. I`m lucky enough to know a few farmers and plantation owners who are much like them.


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## ddd-shooter (Sep 14, 2021)

BarnesAddict said:


> People and their lives are NOT the same as those of us older folks.  Lazy generation?  To some extent maybe but, when I started hunting as a child, I'd start out in the morning from the farm, and I might end up 5 miles or more from home.  I'd cross farm after farm, maybe even hunt with one of the neighbors.  l'd walk out to a road and start heading home.  Someone would always stop and pick me up, make sure my firearm was unloaded and take me home.   How would that work out today in the majority of the country????
> Next the large properties or farms in many areas have been chopped up and sold off.  10 acres here, 20 acres there, 5 acres here, or a darn subdivision now in place.  City folk moved to the country to find THEIR little piece of country and by God its THEIRS!  Don't you dare cross that property line.  You do not have permission to retrieve game if its on my property and a whole list of other "do not disturb me" lines.
> Some hunters hunting over large agricultural fields must shoot long range.  Others have to kill an animal DRT because of "that" neighbor.
> 
> ...


I agree with the land problem. Its huge, and I hate the attitude nowadays. 

I don't have a problem with Billy Bob shooting anything, really. I can see his side of the fence really well. 
But maybe he does actually have a problem he doesn't know about. I would ask him and others to look across the fence as well. It's not always a benefit to do things the easier way, and no amount of burying our heads in the sand will avoid it. 
Maybe he'd find more enjoyment doing stuff the hard way. Thats all I'm saying, in a real rant kind of fashion. Lol


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## lampern (Sep 14, 2021)

> If you have a problem with Billy Bob hunting with a modern inline rifle, you have the problem not Billy Bob. That your way or the highway stuff is nothing but selfishness.



Then why continue to have special seasons?

Let me hunt with what I want as long as its not a safety hazard

Everyone can support that, right?


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## NCHillbilly (Sep 15, 2021)

lampern said:


> Then why continue to have special seasons?
> 
> Let me hunt with what I want as long as its not a safety hazard
> 
> Everyone can support that, right?


If you changed ML season to rifle season here in the mountains, there would be no deer to hunt in a few years. I don't see that anything needs changed. I like it just like it is. You don't like to hunt with a muzzleloader? Then don't. And quit griping at and trying to steal the joy of those who do. Maybe we should just legalize deer snares, then everybody could just go check them every day.


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## lampern (Sep 15, 2021)

NCHillbilly said:


> If you changed ML season to rifle season here in the mountains, there would be no deer to hunt in a few years. I don't see that anything needs changed. I like it just like it is. You don't like to hunt with a muzzleloader? Then don't. And quit griping at and trying to steal the joy of those who do. Maybe we should just legalize deer snares, then everybody could just go check them every day.



How so? Most NC counties only have a few days to kill does. One week or one day.

Interestingly you go up on the national forest in NC there is just one day to shoot does with a muzzleloader. 

Adding buck only days doesn't change much.

Georgia has one week for muzzleloader and air guns. Adding it to any legal weapons season there would change nothing since the biologists can adjust either-sex days


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## Nicodemus (Sep 15, 2021)

lampern said:


> How so? Most NC counties only have a few days to kill does. One week or one day.
> 
> Adding buck only days doesn't change much.
> 
> Georgia has one week for muzzleloader and air guns. Adding it to gun season there would change nothing.




You can still use muzzleloaders during the regular gun season.


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## LTFDretired (Sep 23, 2021)

TarponStalker said:


> First of all I’m not bashing anyone for the method they use to hunt. Also I’m not trying to start an argument about what’s the best way to do things.
> 
> Maybe it’s just an age thing. When I was in my teens during the 70s , muzzleloading gained a big resurgence in popularity.  Of course many of us back then considered Daniel Boone and Davy Crockett our heroes. Thompson Center and CVA  were very popular as they produced guns that were replicas of original muzzleloaders from the 18-19th century.
> Yes, many of us got into muzzleloading just to lengthen our hunting time but many enjoyed learning to load, shoot, build and clean these guns to add a challenge to the hunt.
> ...


No need to complain. The antis love it when we divide amongst ourselves. Any legal method is fine imho


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