# A guy walks into your church ...



## centerpin fan

… and says, “Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior.  He died for my sins.  Because we are in agreement on these key issues, I’d like to join your church.  I must tell you, though, that I support myself by working as a gay prostitute.  I am in a committed relationship with my boyfriend.  We are living together until we can get married.  I struggled with reconciling my homosexuality with Christianity for years.  After reading several gay Christian websites, though, I now realize that God made me gay, and homosexuality is not a sin.”

What would your response be?

a) "Welcome brother!  You sound like 'deacon material' ”!

b) “As a sinner saved by grace, I welcome you.  For the sake of your soul, though, I must quote the Apostle Peter in Acts 3:  ‘Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.’ ” 

c) Something else.

Please elaborate if “c” is your choice.


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## kmckinnie

D) he wants to teach the boys  choir to sing.


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## centerpin fan

kmckinnie said:


> D) he wants to teach the boys  choir to sing.


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## Artfuldodger

E) He was never saved to begin with.


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## Artfuldodger

Reading the account in Acts 3, addressing the Jews who murdered the Author of life, they were being called to repent.
They acted in ignorance and in this way God has fulfilled his plan of salvation through Jesus.
They needed to now realize who Jesus was and change their minds as to who he was.


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## hobbs27

centerpin fan said:


> … and says, “Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior.  He died for my sins.  Because we are in agreement on these key issues, I’d like to join your church.  I must tell you, though, that I support myself by working as a gay prostitute.  I am in a committed relationship with my boyfriend.  We are living together until we can get married.  I struggled with reconciling my homosexuality with Christianity for years.  After reading several gay Christian websites, though, I now realize that God made me gay, and homosexuality is not a sin.”
> 
> What would your response be?
> 
> a) "Welcome brother!  You sound like 'deacon material' ”!
> 
> b) “As a sinner saved by grace, I welcome you.  For the sake of your soul, though, I must quote the Apostle Peter in Acts 3:  ‘Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.’ ”
> 
> c) Something else.
> 
> Please elaborate if “c” is your choice.



c....Sorry you have the wrong building. The Presbyterian church is across the road.


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## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> c....Sorry you have the wrong building. The Presbyterian church is across the road.





Good one!


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## stringmusic

I'm gonna go with B


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## gordon 2

b)...............


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## hummerpoo

c)  You are welcome to worship with us, and we will be pleased to worship with you.  Regrettably, what you have said indicates that you are not currently eligible for membership.  We have several people here who would be pleased to work with you on the scriptural requirements for membership in the Body of Christ.   Please be assured,  we will work and pray for your eligibility; and have great desire that you avail yourself of the available help.


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## red neck richie

C: James 4:12


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## NE GA Pappy

hummerpoo said:


> c)  You are welcome to worship with us, and we will be pleased to worship with you.  Regrettably, what you have said indicates that you are not currently eligible for membership.  We have several people here who would be pleased to work with you on the scriptural requirements for membership in the Body of Christ.   Please be assured,  we will work and pray for your eligibility; and have great desire that you avail yourself of the available help.



Yep... welcome to attend, can't join, and willing to work with them.


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## hobbs27

We had an obvious lesbian couple come into our church one Sunday. Im just going to be honest, they stuck out . Nothing much was said, but when they came back the next sunday the Pastor had a strange sermon about infidelity and bad pictures on the internet...it was strange because it was out of the ordinary.

The third Sunday they came the Pastor preached hard against sexual sins. He said, if your cheating on your spouse, involved in internet pictures or involved in a homosexual relationship you may want to come to this altar and check up, because youre probably not a Christian.
 They both got up and walked out, never saw them again, and to this day I dont hold an opinion as to whether that was right or wrong.


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## mark-7mag

Are you "asking for a friend " ?


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## centerpin fan

mark-7mag said:


> Are you "asking for a friend " ?



Nope.  I'm just asking.


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## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> We had an obvious lesbian couple come into our church one Sunday. Im just going to be honest, they stuck out . Nothing much was said, but when they came back the next sunday the Pastor had a strange sermon about infidelity and bad pictures on the internet...it was strange because it was out of the ordinary.
> 
> The third Sunday they came the Pastor preached hard against sexual sins. He said, if your cheating on your spouse, involved in internet pictures or involved in a homosexual relationship you may want to come to this altar and check up, because youre probably not a Christian.
> They both got up and walked out, never saw them again, and to this day I dont hold an opinion as to whether that was right or wrong.



Maybe they thought they were being targeted.  I don't think people should be targeted (and I'm not saying that's what your pastor did).  At a good church, though, you should hear sermons that challenge you.


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## formula1

*re:*

C, although it's similar to B!

This is a good place for you! You need to get to know God through Jesus Christ because the god you know that made you gay is not God. God doesn't make anyone a sinner.  We have successfully done it to ourselves so we need to repent and turn to Him.  I'm sure that when you realize that God really wants to make you life brand new and you begin walking that path, a new life will be in view and a new career in your future!  Sure, you can come as you are but God never allows you to stay that way.  He wants all of you!!!


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## Artfuldodger

1 Corinthians 10:13

No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.


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## j_seph

C: Romans 6


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## formula1

*re:*

I like Romans 6 too!

James 1
12 Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.


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## SemperFiDawg

> What would your response be?



C.  Sir Can I introduce you to this book we call the Bible?  It's the sole document that Christianity is founded on.  Please read the Gospel of John, Act's and Romans and then come back and we can talk seriously about any questions you have.


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## lagrangedave

Not many glass houses here are they?


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## gemcgrew

"After reading several gay Christian websites, though, I now realize that God made me gay, and homosexuality is not a sin.”

C) Sir, only a moron would change his epistemological worldview because of what he read on a website. Whether God made you gay or not is not relevant. God says that it is wrong. Therefore, it is a sin.


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## Artfuldodger

C) Judging by your inability to change shows me that you have not been given the ability to repent. Thereby you aren't exhibiting or can't exhibit the fruit of the Holy Spirit. This shows me that you aren't one of the Elect or at least haven't been called yet to produce fruit.
Therefore we must ask you to leave. Please take the others with you. The cheaters, the greedy, the angry, the ADULTERERS, the fornicators, the people with lust in their hearts, the jealous, the prideful, the boasters, the over eaters, the drunkards, the bitter, the conceited, the one's who can't forgive others, backstabbers, promise breakers, and the one's that don't help the sick and poor.

It's obvious the washing didn't work on those and they will not see the Kingdom of God. Otherwise they would repent. Some of them do feel bad about what they do but some of them don't. None have repented so take all of the "unwashed" with you, they too are not showing the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

I'm not giving anyone a free pass, especially the homosexuals and adulterers. They are the least repentant of all the so called unwashed. Oh, and people who cheat on their income taxes. They are pretty unrepentant too. And the gluttons. And lustful hearts. And the, well never mind.

Maybe God will call them later if they are part of the Elect. Then and only then can they truly repent and stop sinning. At that time we'll let them back into our, I mean, God's Church.


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> "After reading several gay Christian websites, though, I now realize that God made me gay, and homosexuality is not a sin.”
> 
> C) Sir, only a moron would change his epistemological worldview because of what he read on a website. Whether God made you gay or not is not relevant. God says that it is wrong. Therefore, it is a sin.



When you think about it God made me have lust in my heart so the "God made me gay" doesn't fly or give one a free pass. The Potter can make one person gay and the other with lust in his heart. The Potter can blind and the Potter can make one see.

So if I continue to have lust in my heart would it prove that I haven't been called as one of the Elect? Does it matter if I feel guilty when I have lust in my heart or must I repent and stop having lust in my heart?

Does having lust in my heart prove I'm not providing the fruit of the Holy Spirit? Does it show that I haven't repented?

If I was the guy who walked in off the street and said, I want to join your church but I have lust in my heart? Would it matter if I tried to repent but couldn't?


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## Lukikus2

kmckinnie said:


> D) he wants to teach the boys  choir to sing.



It really amazes me when something happens bad from one of these types and people are dumbfounded of how it ever happened. Most are looking for handouts to begin with. Couldn't care less about your religion or morals.


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## Artfuldodger

Lukikus2 said:


> It really amazes me when something happens bad from one of these types and people are dumbfounded of how it ever happened. Most are looking for handouts to begin with. Couldn't care less about your religion or morals.



Adulterers?


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## welderguy

When I read such texts as 1 Cor.5:9-13, I get a pretty good sense that it would be much better for the  actively sexually immoral person to remain outside the church. I'm told that if they remain outside the church, I can refrain from judging them. But if they come into the church, I must judge them.


9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.


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## centerpin fan

welderguy said:


> When I read such texts as 1 Cor.5:9-13, I get a pretty good sense that it would be much better for the  actively sexually immoral person to remain outside the church. I'm told that if they remain outside the church, I can refrain from judging them. But if they come into the church, I must judge them.
> 
> 
> 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
> 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
> 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
> 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
> 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.



So what would you say to the guy?


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## welderguy

centerpin fan said:


> So what would you say to the guy?



I would show him 1 Cor.5 and tell him I could not support his active sexual immorality as a member of the body. I hope he would understand and not go away mad, ....But most likely he will.


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## M80

“If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.”
CensoredCensoredLeviticus‬ Censored20:13‬ CensoredKJV‬‬
http://bible.com/1/lev.20.13.kjv

Would that be to forward. Seriously though the Bible teaches me to Love, in no way would they be a candidate to join because obviously if one believes they can be saved and be gay they are not saved. I'll teach them what the Bible says about salvation through love and try to win them to the Lord. Then after salvation if they change their ways they could be a candidate to join the church.


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## centerpin fan

welderguy said:


> I would show him 1 Cor.5 and tell him I could not support his active sexual immorality as a member of the body. I hope he would understand and not go away mad, ....But most likely he will.



That sounds dangerously close to telling him he needs to repent in order to be saved.


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## welderguy

centerpin fan said:


> That sounds dangerously close to telling him he needs to repent in order to be saved.



No sir.
Repentance is the result of, not the cause of salvation. Salvation is of the Lord, not man.


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> No sir.
> Repentance is the result of, not the cause of salvation. Salvation is of the Lord, not man.



They got this out of order then.

Acts 3 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.


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## centerpin fan

welderguy said:


> Repentance is the result of, not the cause of salvation.



I disagree, but thanks for clarifying.


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## Artfuldodger

1 Corinthians 6:10-12
nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.  12“Everything is permissible for me,” but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me,” but I will not be mastered by anything.

Could the repentance in Acts 3:19 be a change of mind?
How can one repent of sins before he has been washed?
Isn't it the actual "washing" that cleanses this sins?
One would have to have the washing first. We can't wash away our own sins.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> 1 Corinthians 6:10-12
> nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.  12“Everything is permissible for me,” but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me,” but I will not be mastered by anything.
> 
> Could the repentance in Acts 3:19 be a change of mind?
> How can one repent of sins before he has been washed?
> Isn't it the actual "washing" that cleanses this sins?
> One would have to have the washing first. We can't wash away our own sins.



Start a topic on this and I will respond.


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## SemperFiDawg

welderguy said:


> No sir.
> Repentance is the result of, not the cause of salvation. Salvation is of the Lord, not man.



Huh?


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## SemperFiDawg

hobbs27 said:


> They got this out of order then.
> 
> Acts 3 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.



I gotta agreed with 70 AD on this one.  Man that hurt.  Think it's gonna scar too.


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## welderguy

SemperFiDawg said:


> Huh?



Titus 3:5-7

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.




You were dead in sin until you were made alive by regeneration. Alive to spiritual things that before were foolishness to you. You could not nor would not repent. But you were called out of darkness into His marvelous light. Now you are a new creature with another nature. You are "in Christ".(Rom. 8:1)


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## hobbs27

SemperFiDawg said:


> I gotta agreed with 70 AD on this one.  Man that hurt.  Think it's gonna scar too.



I was just thinking about the order in which one is saved.  Salvation then repentance vs. repentance then Salvation, but thanks for seeing that in the text,  I'll file it away as yet another proof text.


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## centerpin fan

welderguy said:


> Titus 3:5-7
> 
> 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
> 
> 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
> 
> 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You were dead in sin until you were made alive by regeneration. Alive to spiritual things that before were foolishness to you. You could not nor would not repent. But you were called out of darkness into His marvelous light. Now you are a new creature with another nature. You are "in Christ".(Rom. 8:1)



Any comment on the Acts 3 passage mentioned in post 1 and post 34?

In the NT, you have John the Baptist, Jesus and the apostles preaching repentance.


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## hummerpoo

Google "Ordo Salutis"

Carefully read the first 7 articles listed on reliable websights;
at the same time keeping track of the lists encountered.

Finally compare the lists you have found.

If the articles you read are original work (no plagiarism)you are unlikely to have a match;
but you will have gained some understanding of the basis on which the differing lists have been compiled.

edit>>>
For those who prefer short cuts here is a paragraph from theopedia.com, but this alone does not give the understanding I referred to above.


The debate over "ordo salutis" is most keenly evident between the Reformed and Arminian systems. For the Reformed tradition the "ordo salutis" is: election / predestination, followed by evangelism, regeneration, conversion, justification, sanctification, and glorification. For the Arminian view, the "ordo salutis" is: evangelism, followed by faith / election, repentance, regeneration, justification, perseverance, and glorification. These stages may have various distinctions that are not represented here, but serve to show the basic differences between the two systems. It should be noted that these need not be conceived as chronological steps - many of these stages are seen as distinctions within a single process that all (in one way or another) depend upon the work of God.


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## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> Google "Ordo Salutis"
> 
> Carefully read the first 7 articles listed on reliable websights;
> at the same time keeping track of the lists encountered.
> 
> Finally compare the lists you have found.
> 
> If the articles you read are original work (no plagiarism)you are unlikely to have a match;
> but you will have gained some understanding of the basis on which the differing lists have been compiled.
> 
> edit>>>
> For those who prefer short cuts here is a paragraph from theopedia.com, but this alone does not give the understanding I referred to above.
> 
> 
> The debate over "ordo salutis" is most keenly evident between the Reformed and Arminian systems. For the Reformed tradition the "ordo salutis" is: election / predestination, followed by evangelism, regeneration, conversion, justification, sanctification, and glorification. For the Arminian view, the "ordo salutis" is: evangelism, followed by faith / election, repentance, regeneration, justification, perseverance, and glorification. These stages may have various distinctions that are not represented here, but serve to show the basic differences between the two systems. It should be noted that these need not be conceived as chronological steps - many of these stages are seen as distinctions within a single process that all (in one way or another) depend upon the work of God.



OK, I haven't googled but why is there no conversion in the Arminian path? I would agree with the last sentence in that some of these things are overlapping and/or happening simultaneously.


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## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> OK, I haven't googled but why is there no conversion in the Arminian path? I would agree with the last sentence in that some of these things are overlapping and/or happening simultaneously.



Answer #1 — You probably answered your own question.
Answer #2 — IF your read the article you will find definitions that will help you further answer your question.
Answer #3 — Your question shows why I'm not trying to reinvent a worn out wheel.


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## welderguy

centerpin fan said:


> Any comment on the Acts 3 passage mentioned in post 1 and post 34?
> 
> In the NT, you have John the Baptist, Jesus and the apostles preaching repentance.



Acts 3:19
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.


This repentance and conversion is speaking of returning to a former state. Peter is not telling them to become something they have not yet been(saved), but rather to turn back again to the way they already were before. To repent of their backslidings, so to speak. The "refreshing" is another way of saying revival. It's not the freshening(regeneration), it's a RE-freshening(conversion).See the distinction?

important note:
We are only regenerated once, but we are converted multiple times throughout our lives.


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## NE GA Pappy

welderguy said:


> Acts 3:19
> 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
> 
> 
> This repentance and conversion is speaking of returning to a former state. Peter is not telling them to become something they have not yet been(saved), but rather to turn back again to the way they already were before. To repent of their backslidings, so to speak. The "refreshing" is another way of saying revival. It's not the freshening(regeneration), it's a RE-freshening(conversion).See the distinction?
> 
> important note:
> We are only regenerated once, but we are converted multiple times throughout our lives.




converted from what to become what?


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## welderguy

NE GA Pappy said:


> converted from what to become what?



Peter says these men denied the Lord Jesus when they delivered Him up to be crucified. But he also says they did it in ignorance, and he calls them brethren. He's telling them to turn from their iniquities.

Remember what Jesus told Peter?

Luke 22
And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have 31you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
33 And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.
34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.


Peter was in fact converted from his denial of Jesus, and he was told to strengthen his brethren likewise. I believe he was doing just that in Acts 3.


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## centerpin fan

welderguy said:


> Acts 3:19
> 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
> 
> This repentance and conversion is speaking of returning to a former state. Peter is not telling them to become something they have not yet been(saved), but rather to turn back again to the way they already were before. To repent of their backslidings, so to speak. The "refreshing" is another way of saying revival. It's not the freshening(regeneration), it's a RE-freshening(conversion).See the distinction?
> 
> important note:
> We are only regenerated once, but we are converted multiple times throughout our lives.






welderguy said:


> Peter says these men denied the Lord Jesus when they delivered Him up to be crucified. But he also says they did it in ignorance, and he calls them brethren. He's telling them to turn from their iniquities.
> 
> Remember what Jesus told Peter?
> 
> Luke 22
> And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have 31you, that he may sift you as wheat:
> 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
> 33 And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.
> 34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.
> 
> 
> Peter was in fact converted from his denial of Jesus, and he was told to strengthen his brethren likewise. I believe he was doing just that in Acts 3.



I think you're missing the forest for the trees.  If you look at the totality of scripture, repentance is not ambiguous.  Throughout the Bible, God raises up prophets and apostles to call the people to repent of their wickedness and turn to God.  Just a few examples:

_Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations._ Ezek 14:6


_Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin_. Ezek 18:30


_For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.

And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:

But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. _Jonah 3:6-8


_When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance_.   Mk 2:17


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## welderguy

centerpin fan said:


> I think you're missing the forest for the trees.  If you look at the totality of scripture, repentance is not ambiguous.  Throughout the Bible, God raises up prophets and apostles to call the people to repent of their wickedness and turn to God.  Just a few examples:
> 
> _Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations._ Ezek 14:6
> 
> 
> _Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin_. Ezek 18:30
> 
> 
> _For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
> 
> And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:
> 
> But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. _Jonah 3:6-8
> 
> 
> _When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance_.   Mk 2:17



I agree with what you are saying if you are applying it to this life. But it's when you apply it as our means of obtaining eternal life, I strongly disagree. Man cannot do anything to obtain eternal life. If he could, it would no longer be of grace.(unmerited favor)


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> I agree with what you are saying if you are applying it to this life. But it's when you apply it as our means of obtaining eternal life, I strongly disagree. Man cannot do anything to obtain eternal life. If he could, it would no longer be of grace.(unmerited favor)




if Jesus died on the cross to make a way for whosoever will,  how does that redefine grace?


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## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> Peter says these men denied the Lord Jesus when they delivered Him up to be crucified. But he also says they did it in ignorance, and he calls them brethren. He's telling them to turn from their iniquities.
> 
> Remember what Jesus told Peter?
> 
> Luke 22
> And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have 31you, that he may sift you as wheat:
> 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
> 33 And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.
> 34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.
> 
> 
> Peter was in fact converted from his denial of Jesus, and he was told to strengthen his brethren likewise. I believe he was doing just that in Acts 3.



Could I relate this about Peter and Acts to Romans 11 as it pertains to ignorance, grace, election, and not of works?
Acts 3:17-19
And now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18But in this way God has fulfilled what He foretold through all the prophets, saying that His Christ would suffer. 19Repent, then, and turn back, so that your sins may be wiped away,

Romans 11:5-7
In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.7So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened.

Romans 11:25-27
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove godlessness from Jacob. 27And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.”


----------



## Artfuldodger

If the group in Romans 1 is related to Israel then I can also see a relation to election, conversion, backsliding, repentance, conversion such as Peter and Israel experienced;

Romans 1:19-23
They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them.20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.21Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused.22Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools.23And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles.

Acts 3:17-19
And now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18But in this way God has fulfilled what He foretold through all the prophets, saying that His Christ would suffer. 19Repent, then, and turn back, so that your sins may be wiped away,

This group knew God. How does one know God?
John 6:44
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

1 Corinthians 1:21
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

They knew God and were without excuse to not worship him. God is revealing wrath upon them for suppressing the truth. A blind man can't suppress the truth because he doesn't "know" the truth.


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> Acts 3:19
> 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
> 
> This repentance and conversion is speaking of returning to a former state. Peter is not telling them to become something they have not yet been(saved), but rather to turn back again to the way they already were before. To repent of their backslidings, so to speak. The "refreshing" is another way of saying revival. It's not the freshening(regeneration), it's a RE-freshening(conversion).See the distinction?
> 
> important note:
> We are only regenerated once, but we are converted multiple times throughout our lives.



Could this explain why I still have lust in my heart? Even though I'm elected and called? I think most refer to the "calling" as the "conversion" so that might be confusing.

Anyway one can be saved such as Peter and me yet still deny God through direct denial or denial through sin.
Therefore when I have lust in my heart, I go through a process of repent, convert, repent, convert,etc.? 
Even though I have the Holy Spirit? Even though I'm producing fruit? I'm still going through this process of repeatedly repenting & converting. Just like Peter did and Just like Peter and Paul are telling Israel to do.

So getting back to the OP, how do we judge considering that we don't know where one is in the process of this constantly repenting and converting?

Romans 2:1
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

Some time in our own repenting process, we all are at the point of doing the same things we judge others of doing.

Regarding the OP though, one would like to see his fellow Christian getting more righteous as he goes up the regeneration process. One's regeneration process should look like steps or one of those financial charts showing overall process with some backsliding along the way. 
Calling it repenting, converting, repenting, converting. Sure, why not.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> if Jesus died on the cross to make a way for whosoever will,  how does that redefine grace?



The whosoever that will, are the whosoever that are made willing by the regenerating Holy Spirit.


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> Could this explain why I still have lust in my heart? Even though I'm elected and called? I think most refer to the "calling" as the "conversion" so that might be confusing.
> 
> Anyway one can be saved such as Peter and me yet still deny God through direct denial or denial through sin.
> Therefore when I have lust in my heart, I go through a process of repent, convert, repent, convert,etc.?
> Even though I have the Holy Spirit? Even though I'm producing fruit? I'm still going through this process of repeatedly repenting & converting. Just like Peter did and Just like Peter and Paul are telling Israel to do.
> 
> So getting back to the OP, how do we judge considering that we don't know where one is in the process of this constantly repenting and converting?
> 
> Romans 2:1
> You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.
> 
> Some time in our own repenting process, we all are at the point of doing the same things we judge others of doing.



Yes and there is a warfare between our two natures.
Back to the OP, we don't judge the heart, only the fruits, but then it's only those in the church.God judges those outside the church.


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> The whosoever that will, are the whosoever that are made willing by the regenerating Holy Spirit.



So back to the OP, how do we know if the man who walks into a Church has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit? Couldn't he just be in a need or place in time where his heart is in the place Peter's was at?
Mind you the OP used unrepentant homosexuality but it would be the same for any sin to include lust or overeating. None of us have repented in respect to "stop" sinning. 

How could I, who has lust in his heart, judge a man who overeats? Isn't Romans 2:1 telling me I'm doing the same thing by having lust in my heart as the man who is overeating?

Does having lust in my heart prove I'm not providing the fruit of the Holy Spirit? Does it show that I haven't repented?

If I was the guy who walked in off the street and said, I want to join your Church but I have lust in my heart? Would it matter if I tried to repent but couldn't? Does a desire to quit count as quitting?

How much repentance is proof? One sin a day or twenty? How many fruits is proof of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? One fruit a day or twenty?

Since salvation is from grace and God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy, why do we concentrate on judging fruit so much? Unless as suggested, we aren't judging to prove salvation as God judges outside the Church. We are judging within the Church, but for what reason?

Are we judging within the Church to help our brothers repent? But if we don't even let them in, how do they repent from their sin? If man can help someone repent from sin, then that person would have to already be a Christian. Correct?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Acts 20:21
Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 4:5
But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners.

Romans 5:15
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Salvation is receiving, not giving. 

That being said, we still have that "proof of the Holy Spirit through fruits" thing. It's a thin line, this grace vs works thing.

Romans 11:5-7
It is the same today, for a few of the people of Israel have remained faithful because of God's grace--his undeserved kindness in choosing them.6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
7So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened.


----------



## Israel

If you claim to know what you would do in any situation, respond to in any hypothetical, you may have well forgotten...who you are, and already have been is now out of your hands...also.


----------



## Georgia Hard Hunter

lukikus2 said:


> it really amazes me when something happens bad from one of these types and people are dumbfounded of how it ever happened. Most are looking for handouts to begin with. Couldn't care less about your religion or morals.



wow


----------



## Lukikus2

Artfuldodger said:


> Adulterers?



It's easy that way


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> The whosoever that will, are the whosoever that are made willing by the regenerating Holy Spirit.



John 7 : 37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> John 7 : 37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified



Do you believe that it takes faith to come to God?

Hebrews 11:6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


Do you believe faith is given by God?

Eph.2:8
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


Do you believe a man can  seek God, without being drawn by God to do so?

John 6:44
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Do you believe a man is able to believe in God without belief being first given to him?

Philippians 1:29
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Do you believe that it takes faith to come to God?
> 
> Hebrews 11:6
> 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
> 
> 
> Do you believe faith is given by God?
> 
> Eph.2:8
> 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
> 
> 
> Do you believe a man can  seek God, without being drawn by God to do so?
> 
> John 6:44
> 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
> 
> Do you believe a man is able to believe in God without belief being first given to him?
> 
> Philippians 1:29
> 29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;




Yes. 

Yes,  but a measure is given after one has faith that Jesus is Lord.. A measure of faith is given to each of us to sustain us. 

Yes,  I believe most Muslim's and Jew's today seek God,  but as the old song goes,  they are looking for Love in all the wrong places. 

Yes,  I don't think God makes any of us believe  to be saved.  That is our choice. I believe the Spirit calls by drawing and the Church calls  by preaching Jesus is Lord.  But it is not forced on any man.  I have heard the testimony of men that denied the drawing.. One man dying said the door was shut on him after many callings and he was never drawn by the Spirit again... Some that thirst will and do turn away from the waters.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Yes.
> 
> Yes,  but a measure is given after one has faith that Jesus is Lord.. A measure of faith is given to each of us to sustain us.
> 
> Yes,  I believe most Muslim's and Jew's today seek God,  but as the old song goes,  they are looking for Love in all the wrong places.
> 
> Yes,  I don't think God makes any of us believe  to be saved.  That is our choice. I believe the Spirit calls by drawing and the Church calls  by preaching Jesus is Lord.  But it is not forced on any man.  I have heard the testimony of men that denied the drawing.. One man dying said the door was shut on him after many callings and he was never drawn by the Spirit again... Some that thirst will and do turn away from the waters.



Do you believe there are particular ones who are ordained to eternal life and believe?

Acts 13:48
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Do you believe there are particular ones who are ordained to eternal life and believe?
> 
> Acts 13:48
> 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.



No,  I believe some reject the word of God. 

Acts 13:
46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Yes.
> 
> Yes,  but a measure is given after one has faith that Jesus is Lord.. A measure of faith is given to each of us to sustain us.



Do you believe that all men have faith?

2 Thessalonians 3:2
2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> No,  I believe some reject the word of God.



Do you believe those that reject the word of God until death were somehow still ordained by God to eternal life?

If so, how would man prevent something that God ordained?


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Do you believe those that reject the word of God until death were somehow still ordained by God to eternal life?
> 
> If so, how would man prevent something that God ordained?




All men do not have faith.Turning from faithless to faithful requires repentance. 

The only ones ordained by God to eternal life are those that choose to believe Jesus is Lord.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> All men do not have faith.Turning from faithless to faithful requires repentance.



But earlier you agreed that faith must be given to us by God.

Are you now saying we have faith of ourselves? And if we don't possess this faith, we must repent and conjure it up somehow? Sounds contradictory to  me.Explain how one can give himself this saving faith.


----------



## centerpin fan

welderguy said:


> But earlier you agreed that faith must be given to us by God.
> 
> Are you now saying we have faith of ourselves? And if we don't possess this faith, we must repent and conjure it up somehow? Sounds contradictory to  me.Explain how one can give himself this saving faith.



" ... faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." - Rom 10:17


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> But earlier you agreed that faith must be given to us by God.
> 
> Are you now saying we have faith of ourselves? And if we don't possess this faith, we must repent and conjure it up somehow? Sounds contradictory to  me.Explain how one can give himself this saving faith.




 You misunderstood me.  Once we have faith and accept Christ as Lord... Already Christian,  then God gives us a measure of faith to see us through.  He gives a measure of faith to already saved folks.


----------



## kmckinnie

So what happen to the gay couple. 
Front row seats or in the back row. Either way are they in the pews.


----------



## Artfuldodger

kmckinnie said:


> So what happen to the gay couple.
> Front row seats or in the back row. Either way are they in the pews.



They committed adultery and were kicked out.


----------



## Artfuldodger

1 Corinthians 2:14
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

1 Corinthians 1:21
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

" ... faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." - Rom 10:17

I'm picturing a person on a small tiny isolated island who has never heard the word of God. At least not from a man.

Now getting back to the folks who have heard the Word from a man. Why do some folks think it foolish?

1 Corinthians 1:23-24
but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,24But to those called by God to salvation, both Jews and Gentiles, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.


----------



## kmckinnie

What happened to he who is with out sin cast the first stone. 

Ask your self what u have committed. Did you pass judgement or quote bible verses. 

So everyone in your church has not broken a commandment. 
 Forgive me father for I have sinned.


----------



## kmckinnie

Good day to all.


----------



## centerpin fan

kmckinnie said:


> What happened to he who is with out sin cast the first stone.



You're talking about the woman caught in adultery, brought to Jesus by the Pharisees.  That is a completely different scenario than the OP:  



centerpin fan said:


> A guy walks into your church and says, “Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior.  He died for my sins.  Because we are in agreement on these key issues, I’d like to join your church.  I must tell you, though, that I support myself by working as a gay prostitute.  I am in a committed relationship with my boyfriend.  We are living together until we can get married.  I struggled with reconciling my homosexuality with Christianity for years.  After reading several gay Christian websites, though, I now realize that God made me gay, and homosexuality is not a sin.”



What would you say to the guy?


----------



## kmckinnie

So there's different adulteration situations. 
We can stone the gay couple. 
Thanks.


----------



## centerpin fan

kmckinnie said:


> We can stone the gay couple.
> Thanks.



Nobody said anything like that.  We've had some very good responses.

What would you say to the guy?


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> You misunderstood me.  Once we have faith and accept Christ as Lord... Already Christian,  then God gives us a measure of faith to see us through.  He gives a measure of faith to already saved folks.



So.. to make sure I'm understanding you,.. you're saying man must already have his own faith initially to believe, then God will give him His afterwards?
How can a man who is dead to spiritual things have any faith on his own?

Can you show this in scripture?

I'm reading that there is only one faith.

Eph.4:4-6
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> So.. to make sure I'm understanding you,.. you're saying man must already have his own faith initially to believe, then God will give him His afterwards?
> How can a man who is dead to spiritual things have any faith on his own?
> 
> Can you show this in scripture?
> 
> I'm reading that there is only one faith.
> 
> Eph.4:4-6
> 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
> 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
> 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.



Welder... The scripture you quote above is out of context of this conversation... Matter of fact if it were it would be against your position  since it says concerning "you all" in verse 6 and "ye are called" in vs. 4.  I don't think you believe all are called,  do you? 


To clarify my position which is simple. A non believer will hear the good news,  will be drawn by the Spirit and will either believe and take of the water of life.... Or they will reject it,  and continue in disbelief. 
 Those that take it,  and believe are then given a measure of faith to sustain them in their walk.  A homosexual would have their sin exposed and would turn from that evil doing,  just as an adulterer,  or swindler,  liar,  drunkard,  etc.  No one,  homosexual included could possibly say they have been saved by the blood of Christ shed on the cross... And this allows me to continue living in sin.  The person if truly saved will feel shame in their lifestyle.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Welder... The scripture you quote above is out of context of this conversation... Matter of fact if it were it would be against your position  since it says concerning "you all" in verse 6 and "ye are called" in vs. 4.  I don't think you believe all are called,  do you?
> 
> 
> To clarify my position which is simple. A non believer will hear the good news,  will be drawn by the Spirit and will either believe and take of the water of life.... Or they will reject it,  and continue in disbelief.
> Those that take it,  and believe are then given a measure of faith to sustain them in their walk.  A homosexual would have their sin exposed and would turn from that evil doing,  just as an adulterer,  or swindler,  liar,  drunkard,  etc.  No one,  homosexual included could possibly say they have been saved by the blood of Christ shed on the cross... And this allows me to continue living in sin.  The person if truly saved will feel shame in their lifestyle.



I firmly believe that if a person is drawn by the Spirit, they are going to come. It's an effectual call that we are made willing without any reservations whatsoever. Scripture says He knoweth them that are His.
This "knowing" is much more than being aquainted with us. It's an intimate thing. A oneness in Christ. And it's something that was determined before creation.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> I firmly believe that if a person is drawn by the Spirit, they are going to come. It's an effectual call that we are made willing without any reservations whatsoever. Scripture says He knoweth them that are His.
> This "knowing" is much more than being aquainted with us. It's an intimate thing. A oneness in Christ. And it's something that was determined before creation.



I know you believe that, and you put that point of salvation before God made the world,  which takes hope away from those born without it,  and it makes being born with it a luck of the draw.  

 Can you point out the ones in your family that are not elected?  What would you tell a son or daughter that seeks God,  but God never chose them?


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> I know you believe that, and you put that point of salvation before God made the world,  which takes hope away from those born without it,  and it makes being born with it a luck of the draw.
> 
> Can you point out the ones in your family that are not elected?  What would you tell a son or daughter that seeks God,  but God never chose them?



1 Thessalonians 4:13 speaks of these who have no hope. Faith is the substance of things hoped for. And, not all men have faith. It's a scriptural concept. Who can question God and say why have you made me thus?

We all deserve to perish, but God chose to show the exceeding richness of His grace to usward who believe. And it is given to you to believe.

As far as my children's salvation goes, I don't know who is elect. That's God's department. He's sovereign over all His creation.


----------



## Artfuldodger

What about the folks who never heard the Good News?


----------



## NE GA Pappy

I believe you guys get hung in one camp on this elected/called/pre-0rdained stuff.

The truth is that God knows beforehand.  God - has scripture says - foreknows.  He exists in a plane that we can only imagine, and then just the most minor parts of it.  God always foreknows everything.  It is like He is living in the past of our tomorrows.

Scripture says, those he fore knew, he pre-ordained.  Yes, we have freewill, and we get to choose, but God knows those choices before they are ever made.  So God fore knows.  Since He knows beforehand, He can and will preordain that salvation.  Yet, He gives us free choice to choose how we will live and if we will serve Him.

The truth of the matter is Yes, God fore knows.  Yes, God pre-ordains, and Yes, we have free choice.

Without God, I can't, but without me, He won't.    And He knows upfront Who, Why, What,When and How.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

centerpin fan said:


> … and says, “Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior.  He died for my sins.  Because we are in agreement on these key issues, I’d like to join your church.  I must tell you, though, that I support myself by working as a gay prostitute.  I am in a committed relationship with my boyfriend.  We are living together until we can get married.  I struggled with reconciling my homosexuality with Christianity for years.  After reading several gay Christian websites, though, I now realize that God made me gay, and homosexuality is not a sin.”
> 
> What would your response be?
> 
> a) "Welcome brother!  You sound like 'deacon material' ”!
> 
> b) “As a sinner saved by grace, I welcome you.  For the sake of your soul, though, I must quote the Apostle Peter in Acts 3:  ‘Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.’ ”
> 
> c) Something else.
> 
> Please elaborate if “c” is your choice.



After re-reading this, I think I would tell the guy that regardless of his (questionable) salvation the Church is a place where people come, in part, to seek help in  overcoming sin, not to condone it.


----------



## welderguy

NE GA Pappy said:


> I believe you guys get hung in one camp on this elected/called/pre-0rdained stuff.
> 
> The truth is that God knows beforehand.  God - has scripture says - foreknows.  He exists in a plane that we can only imagine, and then just the most minor parts of it.  God always foreknows everything.  It is like He is living in the past of our tomorrows.
> 
> Scripture says, those he fore knew, he pre-ordained.  Yes, we have freewill, and we get to choose, but God knows those choices before they are ever made.  So God fore knows.  Since He knows beforehand, He can and will preordain that salvation.  Yet, He gives us free choice to choose how we will live and if we will serve Him.
> 
> The truth of the matter is Yes, God fore knows.  Yes, God pre-ordains, and Yes, we have free choice.
> 
> Without God, I can't, but without me, He won't.    And He knows upfront Who, Why, What,When and How.



But I see a flaw in this way of thinking. It says that God based His salvation on something we did/had. Then it's no longer unmerited favor(grace). It is based on merit.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

welderguy said:


> But I see a flaw in this way of thinking. It says that God based His salvation on something we did/had. Then it's no longer unmerited favor(grace). It is based on merit.



Absolutely it is grace that saves.  It is offered without us doing anything.  It is offered to each and everyone.  It is up to us to make a decision.  God doesn't force us to serve Him, He lets us decide.

God doesn't sit in heaven on His throne going "eny, meeny, miney, mo.... I pick this one to save, and the rest go to H E double hockey sticks.

He offers to all salvation, as a free gift.  

As in Duet.  -  I place before you life and death.  Choose Life.


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> What about the folks who never heard the Good News?



He.8:11
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.


Holy Spirit regeneration.


----------



## Artfuldodger

The flaw with freewill and God's foreknowledge is, it doesn't allow for "whosoever will" as whosoever will already has. I can't change what God has already seen. 
So it ends up being the same as predestination. The end result is the same.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Romans 11:5-6
In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.

Romans 8:29  
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

2 Timothy 1:9   
Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, 

I don't think it's "eny, meeny, miney, mo" but it's definitely not because of anything we do. It's for God's own purpose and grace.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> 1 Thessalonians 4:13 speaks of these who have no hope. Faith is the substance of things hoped for. And, not all men have faith. It's a scriptural concept. Who can question God and say why have you made me thus?
> 
> We all deserve to perish, but God chose to show the exceeding richness of His grace to usward who believe. And it is given to you to believe.
> 
> As far as my children's salvation goes, I don't know who is elect. That's God's department. He's sovereign over all His creation.



1 Thess.  4:13 is Paul's comforting to those first century Christians that their loved ones would be raised... Do not sorrow like those without hope. 

Faith is in our court.  I could have rejected His calling... Matter of fact I think rejecting it would have been easier than accepting and confessing it. The measure of faith I got after this came in times of weakness.  I can never go back to being an unbeliever,  as I once was.


----------



## M80

welderguy said:


> I firmly believe that if a person is drawn by the Spirit, they are going to come. It's an effectual call that we are made willing without any reservations whatsoever. Scripture says He knoweth them that are His.
> This "knowing" is much more than being aquainted with us. It's an intimate thing. A oneness in Christ. And it's something that was determined before creation.



You can believe what you want but the Bible says
“Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.”
CensoredCensoredActsâ€¬ Censored26:28â€¬ CensoredKJVâ€¬â€¬
http://bible.com/1/act.26.28.kjv

Agrippa said almost. The Spirit was drawing through God yet he still refused and said almost


----------



## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> Sorry if I hurt someone's feelings here but that tears my heart to think he might choose my girl and not my son and my son has no hope.


Whereas I praise God in either case. I do not place my feelings or your standards above my reverence of God.


----------



## gemcgrew

NE GA Pappy said:


> It is offered without us doing anything.





NE GA Pappy said:


> It is up to us to make a decision.


The contradiction should be obvious.


----------



## M80

gemcgrew said:


> Whereas I praise God in either case. I do not place my feelings or your standards above my reverence of God.



You praise God if he sends you child to he11.


----------



## M80

hobbs27 said:


> I know you believe that, and you put that point of salvation before God made the world,  which takes hope away from those born without it,  and it makes being born with it a luck of the draw.
> 
> Can you point out the ones in your family that are not elected?  What would you tell a son or daughter that seeks God,  but God never chose them?




100% amen right here brother. I would hate to believe I had to tell my 2 precious kids. "Well I hope God has elected you and you make it to Heaven". What a crying shame to believe in election. Sorry if I hurt someone's feelings here but that tears my heart to think he might choose my girl and not my son and my son has no hope. Sure am glad the Bible says "not WILLING any should perish but all come to repentance". It is Gods will for all to be saved. Problem is people reject the Lord.


----------



## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> You praise God if he sends you child to he11.


Of course. Are you suggesting that if God sends my son to he11, that God is wrong in doing that?


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> You praise God if he sends you child to he11.



I would hate to see your child not get elected but what about the millions of children already dead in the ground the Gospel didn't reach? You gotta feel a little bit of remorse for them. Maybe even responsible.

Unless God himself reached the ones he wanted to reach, which is a better plan overall than us reaching them. Your plan may save your own children but has already missed saving millions.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I would hate to see your child not get elected but what about the millions of children already dead in the ground the Gospel didn't reach? You gotta feel a little bit of remorse for them. Maybe even responsible.
> 
> Unless God himself reached the ones he wanted to reach, which is a better plan overall than us reaching them. Your plan may save your own children but has already missed saving millions.



The millions of children already dead that didn't hear the Gospel, didn't hear it because God chose them to not hear it. 

The difference is, Calvinist would have Christians believe that God would allow a child to hear the Gospel... Yet that child never had hope.  They would have us believe that the good news... Isn't so good for some.

That's entirely wrong.  God has blessed us with the honor of sharing the Gospel to whosoever will!


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> I would hate to see your child not get elected but what about the millions of children already dead in the ground the Gospel didn't reach? You gotta feel a little bit of remorse for them. Maybe even responsible.
> 
> Unless God himself reached the ones he wanted to reach, which is a better plan overall than us reaching them. Your plan may save your own children but has already missed saving millions.



Brother I've been off here for a while. Tell me you haven't fallen into the Calvinist crowd. 
  I believe there will be many people with blood on their hands that didn't surrender to the call to spread the gospel to uttermost parts of the world when God called them to do that yet they quenched the spirit. Well that brings up another question. If we have no choice how do we quench the spirit if we are made by God. I'll never accept Calvinism. 
  GOD NEVER SENDS ANYONE TO HE11, PEOPLE REJECT HIM AND SEND THERE OWNSELF TO HE11


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> The millions of children already dead that didn't hear the Gospel, didn't hear it because God chose them to not hear it.



And this is different from Election how?

The end result is they didn't receive salvation by God's choice. Whosoever will didn't work for them.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> And this is different from Election how?
> 
> The end result is they didn't receive salvation by God's choice. Whosoever will didn't work for them.



The difference is in the ones that do hear.  Calvinist say people are saved or condemned before they are even born. This means you can preach Jesus death,  burial,  and resurrection all day long every day,  and the condemned have no hope.


----------



## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> Brother I've been off here for a while. Tell me you haven't fallen into the Calvinist crowd.
> I believe there will be many people with blood on their hands that didn't surrender to the call to spread the gospel to uttermost parts of the world when God called them to do that yet they quenched the spirit. Well that brings up another question. If we have no choice how do we quench the spirit if we are made by God. I'll never accept Calvinism.
> GOD NEVER SENDS ANYONE TO HE11, PEOPLE REJECT HIM AND SEND THERE OWNSELF TO HE11


Your theology is so man-centered, the God of the Bible is nowhere to be found in it.

If man has the power, independent of God, to send himself to He11, does man not have the power to leave when he wants to?


----------



## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> Calvinist say people are saved or condemned before they are even born. This means you can preach Jesus death,  burial,  and resurrection all day long every day,  and the condemned have no hope.


Even if this was true, how is it different from what the Arminian says? That God knows before he creates them, who will be saved or condemned.


----------



## welderguy

mwilliams80 said:


> You can believe what you want but the Bible says
> “Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.”
> CensoredCensoredActsâ€¬ Censored26:28â€¬ CensoredKJVâ€¬â€¬
> http://bible.com/1/act.26.28.kjv
> 
> Agrippa said almost. The Spirit was drawing through God yet he still refused and said almost



If the Spirit had been drawing king Agrippa, he would have been persuaded. Not almost persuaded.

"Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power..." (ps.110)


----------



## Artfuldodger

If God uses his foreknowledge to look ahead and knows who will choose his grace, then he also looks ahead at who the missionaries never reached. 
He more or less still determined who was offered his grace whether he personally calls or if he calls through man.


----------



## M80

gemcgrew said:


> Your theology is so man-centered, the God of the Bible is nowhere to be found in it.
> 
> If man has the power, independent of God, to send himself to He11, does man not have the power to leave when he wants to?



Does the Lord not say “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
CensoredCensoredMatthew‬ Censored11:28-30‬ CensoredKJV‬‬
http://bible.com/1/mat.11.28-30.kjv That is our invitation to come. Our choice to come. Also here is another
“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”
CensoredCensoredRevelation‬ Censored3:20‬ CensoredKJV‬‬
http://bible.com/1/rev.3.20.kjv

He don't barge in. He knock and we open the door. He said if any man. Seems pretty clear it's our choice to open the door.


----------



## M80

welderguy said:


> If the Spirit had been drawing king Agrippa, he would have been persuaded. Not almost persuaded.
> 
> "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power..." (ps.110)



Brother this verse has nothing to do with salvation


----------



## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> Does the Lord not say “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
> CensoredCensoredMatthewâ€¬ Censored11:28-30â€¬ CensoredKJVâ€¬â€¬
> http://bible.com/1/mat.11.28-30.kjv That is our invitation to come. Our choice to come. Also here is another
> “Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”
> CensoredCensoredRevelationâ€¬ Censored3:20â€¬ CensoredKJVâ€¬â€¬
> http://bible.com/1/rev.3.20.kjv
> 
> He don't barge in. He knock and we open the door. He said if any man. Seems pretty clear it's our choice to open the door.


Who are you talking to? Your response does not relate to my question.


----------



## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> Brother this verse has nothing to do with salvation


----------



## welderguy

mwilliams80 said:


> Brother this verse has nothing to do with salvation



I disagree.
I believe the entire psalm  has everything to do with salvation.

Do you not believe in the effectual call of the Spirit? The transforming of a person's will at regeneration? The removal of the stoney heart, and replacing with a heart of flesh?


----------



## Israel

What can be taken advantage of...will be taken advantage of.
What can be fooled...will be fooled.


----------



## hobbs27

gemcgrew said:


> Even if this was true, how is it different from what the Arminian says? That God knows before he creates them, who will be saved or condemned.



What does it matter if it lines up with any man made doctrine?  The fact is undeniable that when Christianity enters a community in which it has never been,  and the indigenous people hear the Gospel,  some are saved. The hearing of the Gospel is required.. Hearing being understanding.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> What does it matter if it lines up with any man made doctrine?  The fact is undeniable that when Christianity enters a community in which it has never been,  and the indigenous people hear the Gospel,  some are saved. The hearing of the Gospel is required.. Hearing being understanding.



It may happen that way but comparing which way is fairer, I'm going to have to say Election. It doesn't depend on man to reach the masses. Individual salvation is of the Lord under Election. 

Have you ever read how many people heard Billy Graham preach compared to how many were saved? I think even Billy Graham realized God could call the ones out of the islands and villages without him. Even God could call on the Hindu.


----------



## hummerpoo

hobbs27 said:


> What does it matter if it lines up with any man made doctrine?  The fact is undeniable that when Christianity enters a community in which it has never been,  and the indigenous people hear the Gospel,  some are saved. The hearing of the Gospel is required.. Hearing being understanding.



Which is prerequisite; hearing or the ability to hear?
From where does the ability come?


----------



## hobbs27

hummerpoo said:


> Which is prerequisite; hearing or the ability to hear?
> From where does the ability come?



The ability to understand.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> It may happen that way but comparing which way is fairer, I'm going to have to say Election. It doesn't depend on man to reach the masses. Individual salvation is of the Lord under Election.
> 
> Have you ever read how many people heard Billy Graham preach compared to how many were saved? I think even Billy Graham realized God could call the ones out of the islands and villages without him. Even God could call on the Hindu.



I lean to truth without concern of my idea of fairness


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> I lean to truth without concern of my idea of fairness



I know you do but so many question the fairness of election while disregarding the fairness of the millions of dead souls that never heard the gospel. They never got to "choose" salvation.


----------



## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> The ability to understand.


From where does the ability come?


----------



## hobbs27

gemcgrew said:


> From where does the ability come?



From within ourselves.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> From within ourselves.


----------



## hummerpoo

hobbs27 said:


> From within ourselves.



How did it get there?


----------



## hobbs27

hummerpoo said:


> How did it get there?




By maturing and being healthy.  Not everyone is mature enough or healthy enough to understand.


----------



## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> By maturing and being healthy.  Not everyone is mature enough or healthy enough to understand.


Thanks for clearing that up Hobbs. I always wondered how the light is shined into the mind.


----------



## M80

gemcgrew said:


> Who are you talking to? Your response does not relate to my question.



Was talking to you. Pretty much answering questions the way you do when people ask you questions. You never give explanation but ask questions to counter them. I gave specific scripture to man having a choice by an invitation from God. It's our choice to receive salvation  when the Father draws us to his son.


----------



## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> I gave specific scripture to man having a choice by an invitation from God.


No you didn't. The scriptures you provided do not address choice at all. You injected that.


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> It's our choice to receive salvation  when the Father draws us to his son.



I can truly see that. What about the folks the Father doesn't draw to the Son?


----------



## Artfuldodger

John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

John 1:9
The one who is the true light, who gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.


----------



## hummerpoo

hobbs27 said:


> By maturing and being healthy.  Not everyone is mature enough or healthy enough to understand.



Election conditioned upon maturity and health............ok, thanks.


----------



## hobbs27

hummerpoo said:


> Election conditioned upon maturity and health............ok, thanks.



I was asked about the ability to understand,  not about the doctrine of election.


----------



## hummerpoo

hobbs27 said:


> I was asked about the ability to understand,  not about the doctrine of election.



You were asked about election/choice: #104/#105/#107/#116/#118/#119/#122/#123/#125/#126/#132.

I think you choose to not hear/understand when the next step will be uncomfortable, just as Shimei chose not to hear/understand the anointing of David (2 Sam. 16:5-14).


----------



## hobbs27

hummerpoo said:


> You were asked about election/choice: #104/#105/#107/#116/#118/#119/#122/#123/#125/#126/#132.
> 
> I think you choose to not hear/understand when the next step will be uncomfortable, just as Shimei chose not to hear/understand the anointing of David (2 Sam. 16:5-14).




Election had a time and purpose.  It has no place in the New covenant,  and really wasn't about Salvation,  but establishing God's Salvation in the age without end.


----------



## Israel

So that God's purpose in election might stand...not by works, but by Him who calls...?

What salvation is there...apart from Him who calls?


----------



## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> Election had a time and purpose.  It has no place in the New covenant,  and really wasn't about Salvation,  but establishing God's Salvation in the age without end.


You have no power to extinguish the children of promise.


----------



## hobbs27

gemcgrew said:


> You have no power to extinguish the children of promise.



The promise came.. Luke 21:31


----------



## hummerpoo

hobbs27 said:


> Election had a time and purpose.  It has no place in the New covenant,  and really wasn't about Salvation,  but establishing God's Salvation in the age without end.



Your concocted new covenant serves God's purpose of bringing to light those whose desire is the first pew.


----------



## welderguy

Many will try to come into the sheepfold by some other way. But they are robbers.

Robbers of His Glory.

They have a form of Godliness, but deny the power thereof. (willfully ignorant)


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Many will try to come into the sheepfold by some other way. But they are robbers.
> 
> Robbers of His Glory.
> 
> They have a form of Godliness, but deny the power thereof. (willfully ignorant)



The sheep left the old covenant and followed Jesus into the new... They found rest in His barn,  while the goats stayed behind and were destroyed.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> The sheep left the old covenant and followed Jesus into the new... They found rest in His barn,  while the goats stayed behind and were destroyed.



John 10:27-28

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

I guess where you and I differ is our concept of "hearing His voice".
I believe it's by an effectual call, independent on man in any way.

You seem to think it needs man's help in some form. Am I correct?


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> John 10:27-28
> 
> 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
> 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
> 
> I guess where you and I differ is our concept of "hearing His voice".
> I believe it's by an effectual call, independent on man in any way.
> 
> You seem to think it needs man's help in some form. Am I correct?



No.. Our difference is you think the above is about Salvation today,  when it was about inheriting the Kingdom .


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> The promise came.. Luke 21:31



Can you show us scripture that explains how God stopped being in control after "it was finished?" We've discussed this before. You see God controlling the chain of events leading up to "it is finished" and then turning everything over to chance/choice. That he needed to do this to make sure his plan was accomplished. That since his plan is "finished" he no longer needs to control through hardening and softening.
Would you say that now everyone receives the "Light." Even those who have never heard the gospel?  Do the tiny villagers and Muslims receive an effectual calling?
Now that it is "finished?"


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> No.. Our difference is you think the above is about Salvation today,  when it was about inheriting the Kingdom .



"give unto them eternal life" doesn't equate to salvation ?

I agree, it is also about inheriting the kingdom now, but that is only the tip of this iceberg. There's SO much more in there.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> No.. Our difference is you think the above is about Salvation today,  when it was about inheriting the Kingdom .



What's the difference? Wouldn't one need salvation to enter the kingdom? Even if the kingdom was on the earth? Even salvation from the destruction of Jerusalem?


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> "give unto them eternal life" doesn't equate to salvation ?
> 
> I agree, it is also about inheriting the kingdom now, but that is only the tip of this iceberg. There's SO much more in there.




 Look.  The Kingdom of God belonged to Jerusalem and the old covenant system . Torah was all about Jesus. Everything about the old covenant system pointed to a coming Messiah, that would grant eternal life,  and His kingdom would reign forever.  He would forgive His people of sin that they may have eternal life. 

The old covenant physical  Kingdom was taken away from the scribes and Pharisee and given to King Jesus and His priests and kings.
So the elect were Christians,  but they were elected to be rulers with Jesus and Co heirs of the inheritance with Jesus.  This Kingdom came at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad per Luke 21:31.

 Now that the Kingdom is come and Christ rules , what must one do to be saved?  
Take of the water of life which is freely given... To take is to do... Everything is accomplished and laid out before you,  ready for you to choose.. To take. To live forever. 

Revelation 22!

I ask if you want to continue this conversation we take it to Arts thread on the Co heirs of Christ,  since they were the elect.


----------



## Vectorman

Back to the OP, something very similar to this happened to a pastor friend of mine. The question of whether or not you allow the individual to join your group is their attitude and motive. The individual was the son of a church member who I'm sure heard many many times from his mother that he needs to be in church. But his desire was not to search for and find truth, he wanted to stand before the church and try to convince the congregation that his lifestyle was acceptable because God made him this way. I think his statement was "y'all are just going to have to get use to me". My pastor friend rightly said no, you will not use this platform to promote homosexuality. The pastor offered to privately council the man about the Bible's teaching on homosexuality, that offered was rejected. The man left angry, his mother left angry. I say the pastor was spot on with how he handled this situation. What say you?


----------



## centerpin fan

Vectorman said:


> Back to the OP, something very similar to this happened to a pastor friend of mine. The question of whether or not you allow the individual to join your group is their attitude and motive. The individual was the son of a church member who I'm sure heard many many times from his mother that he needs to be in church. But his desire was not to search for and find truth, he wanted to stand before the church and try to convince the congregation that his lifestyle was acceptable because God made him this way. I think his statement was "y'all are just going to have to get use to me". My pastor friend rightly said no, you will not use this platform to promote homosexuality. The pastor offered to privately council the man about the Bible's teaching on homosexuality, that offered was rejected. The man left angry, his mother left angry. I say the pastor was spot on with how he handled this situation. What say you?



It sounds like your friend told him he needed to repent in order to be saved.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Vectorman, If your pastor man was spot on, how does that work with your quote on the "grace" thread;

"And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace."


----------



## Vectorman

Artfuldodger said:


> Vectorman, If your pastor man was spot on, how does that work with your quote on the "grace" thread;
> 
> "And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace."



My pastor friends situation had nothing to do with salvation but everything to do with his responsibility of protecting the flock from false teaching. It would be no different if someone wanted to stand in front of your church and promote any sinful lifestyle or bad theology. The homosexual would have been welcomed to come and worship, join a bible study etc, but he wanted to promote his agenda. That's why I said it's about his attitude or motive, if he wants to learn, yes please come, if he wants to teach.....no.


----------



## centerpin fan

Vectorman said:


> My pastor friends situation had nothing to do with salvation but everything to do with his responsibility of protecting the flock from false teaching. It would be no different if someone wanted to stand in front of your church and promote any sinful lifestyle or bad theology. The homosexual would have been welcomed to come and worship, join a bible study etc, but he wanted to promote his agenda. That's why I said it's about his attitude or motive, if he wants to learn, yes please come, if he wants to teach.....no.



The OP was not about coming to a service or joining a Bible study.  It was about him (and his boyfriend and soon-to-be husband) becoming members of the church and fully participating in all aspects of the church -- teaching Sunday School, for example.  

What would you tell the guy?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Then if salvation is by grace alone, it comes with the stipulation that if one doesn't repent, then could this be proof that he wasn't saved?
Would the fruit of the Holy Spirit be the proof? If salvation is by grace and not of works, I don't see it any other way.


----------



## Artfuldodger

If salvation is from grace alone, then I don't see any other way than Election. Otherwise we are getting into something man must do such as repentance. Man isn't capable of doing that, only the Holy Spirit working within is capable of doing such a feat.


----------



## centerpin fan

Vectorman said:


> My pastor friends situation had nothing to do with salvation but everything to do with his responsibility of protecting the flock from false teaching. It would be no different if someone wanted to stand in front of your church and promote any sinful lifestyle or bad theology. The homosexual would have been welcomed to come and worship, join a bible study etc, but he wanted to promote his agenda. That's why I said it's about his attitude or motive, if he wants to learn, yes please come, if he wants to teach.....no.



Again, the OP is not about someone coming into the church trying to push an agenda.  Here's a real life example of what I'm talking about:



> John, a 64-year-old theologian and dean of  St. Albans Cathedral, has made no secret of his own homosexuality, and is in a civil partnership with another priest, a relationship he says is celibate. He has also made clear his support for same-sex marriage.
> 
> That has made John the subject of hard-liners’ ire. Supporters say his honesty about his homosexuality, and his views about same-sex marriage, have cost him the bishop’s seat, while some other bishops are known to be “quietly gay.”
> 
> John, who declined to be interviewed, is viewed by many as a “poster boy” for homosexuality in the church.



https://sojo.net/articles/anglican-...-gay-theologian-bishop-7-times-unity-possible

Do you have any questions or concerns about an openly gay bishop?  Is it OK for a bishop to be "quietly gay"?


----------



## Vectorman

centerpin fan said:


> The OP was not about coming to a service or joining a Bible study.  It was about him (and his boyfriend and soon-to-be husband) becoming members of the church and fully participating in all aspects of the church -- teaching Sunday School, for example.
> 
> What would you tell the guy?



I attend a home church of about 20 people. We have an untraditional service in that after the sermon, we take a short break and then we all discuss the sermon and other topics that come up. In my situation, our church doesn't have a "membership roll" and all the baggage that goes along with it. They would be welcomed to come and learn and participate in discussions. They would not be allowed to promote the homosexual lifestyle and would definately hear how destructive it is to them and the country/society as a whole during our discussion. They would probably feel very uncomfortable in our group. If they insisted on promoting their homosexual agenda or became hostile to others at church, then they would be asked to find another place. In the past 5 years, we have ask 2 people not to come back. Neither was for the issue that we are discussing. 

If I was in a traditional setting and I was for my entire life prior to this home church. I would not permit the couple to assume any kind of leadership position in the fellowship where they might possibility influence other immature believers that their lifestyle was acceptable.

But, this has nothing to do with salvation, the first step in desiring a change in behavior for these folks is an indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That only comes after they trust in the finished work of Christ.


----------



## centerpin fan

Vectorman said:


> But, this has nothing to do with salvation, the first step in desiring a change in behavior for these folks is an indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That only comes after they trust in the finished work of Christ.



I tried to make this clear in the OP, but I'll say it again:  the guy in the OP _has_ trusted in the finished work of Christ and believes exactly as you do, except for the part about his lifestyle being "destructive".  He has absolutely no intentions of changing his lifestyle.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Vectorman said:


> But, this has nothing to do with salvation, the first step in desiring a change in behavior for these folks is an indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That only comes after they trust in the finished work of Christ.



I'm interested too, if it has nothing to do with salvation, what does it have to do with?


----------



## Vectorman

centerpin fan said:


> Again, the OP is not about someone coming into the church trying to push an agenda.  Here's a real life example of what I'm talking about:
> 
> John, a 64-year-old theologian and dean of St. Albans Cathedral, has made no secret of his own homosexuality, and is in a civil partnership with another priest, a relationship he says is celibate. He has also made clear his support for same-sex marriage.
> 
> That has made John the subject of hard-liners’ ire. Supporters say his honesty about his homosexuality, and his views about same-sex marriage, have cost him the bishop’s seat, while some other bishops are known to be “quietly gay.”
> 
> John, who declined to be interviewed, is viewed by many as a “poster boy” for homosexuality in the church.
> 
> https://sojo.net/articles/anglican-...-gay-theologian-bishop-7-times-unity-possible
> 
> Do you have any questions or concerns about an openly gay bishop?  Is it OK for a bishop to be "quietly gay"?



There is an old saying about there being a church out there for everybody but not every church is for everybody.

I would never attend a church that was under the authority of a denomination or a bishop. If I decided to attend a denominational church, I would never attend a church which had openly(quietly or not) gay leadership or leadership that promoted/supported/approved of same sex marriage. For me it's very simple that they are not reading from the same book that I am, or they think that the book has errors in it. I have nothing personal against any person regardless of their sexual orientation. I love to sit down with folks and have a conversation about the bible and strive to show God's love to them so there might be a day when I can share the hope that we have.


----------



## centerpin fan

Vectorman said:


> But, this has nothing to do with salvation ...



"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." 

-- 1 Cor. 6:9-10


----------



## centerpin fan

Vectorman said:


> I love to sit down with folks and have a conversation about the bible and strive to show God's love to them so there might be a day when I can share the hope that we have.



During such a conversation, would you tell the person they need to repent?


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> Again, the OP is not about someone coming into the church trying to push an agenda.  Here's a real life example of what I'm talking about:
> 
> https://sojo.net/articles/anglican-...-gay-theologian-bishop-7-times-unity-possible
> 
> Do you have any questions or concerns about an openly gay bishop?  Is it OK for a bishop to be "quietly gay"?



There is a reference in the link to the book of Titus;

Titus 1:6-8
An elder must be blameless, the husband of one wife, having children who are believers and are not open to accusation of indiscretion or insubordination. 7As God’s steward, an overseer must be above reproach — not self-absorbed, not quick tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not greedy for money. 8Instead, he must be hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined.

That's a hard row to hoe. He has to be married. He has to have children. His children have to be believers.
Besides all of that other stuff. But is this about salvation or being a Church elder?

Perhaps we are confusing who can be Church elders or members for what ever reason vs who are saved by grace and not works.

Then again if you believe someone has salvation, they should be Christian enough to join your Church.
It's like saying, you may be saved by grace but your works and/or repentance isn't good enough for "man." You may be good enough for God to grant you salvation by grace but you aren't good enough by works for "man."


----------



## Vectorman

centerpin fan said:


> I tried to make this clear in the OP, but I'll say it again:  the guy in the OP _has_ trusted in the finished work of Christ and believes exactly as you do, except for the part about his lifestyle being "destructive".  He has absolutely no intentions of changing his lifestyle.



Then he would not be allowed to join, lead, teach etc. After a short period of time they probably would not be allowed to participate.


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> Then again if you believe someone has salvation, they should be Christian enough to join your Church.



Agreed.


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
> 
> -- 1 Cor. 6:9-10



You forgot to add verse 11;

11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.


----------



## Vectorman

centerpin fan said:


> During such a conversation, would you tell the person they need to repent?



For salvation? No


----------



## Artfuldodger

Vectorman said:


> Then he would not be allowed to join, lead, teach etc. After a short period of time they probably would not be allowed to participate.



How do you explain to someone they are saved by grace and not works but also explain to them that if they don't produce works they aren't saved?


----------



## Artfuldodger

I guess we could tell them they are saved by grace and not works. That they have salvation. Yet explain to them that although you can't quit sinning(repent), you should at least try. If you don't at least try then you can no longer come to our Church.
That works don't make or take away from salvation, they add to it. Like a person joining a club but not joining any comittees or doing any club work. They are in the club as they have paid their dues,(Jesus did for us) yet they don't do anything above and beyond.

That doesn't take away your salvation, we just feel like it may lead our congregation down the wrong path. You might do better to attend another Church or worship alone. We aren't doubting your salvation by grace, we just don't personally believe in the same doctrine as you.

It would be like a free will believer trying to join a Election believing Church. Perhaps they all have salvation, they just don't agree with how they gained it. Now if the free will believer just sit their and listened, ok, but if he constantly said, "no wa" at every mention of predestination.
Or a Preterist going to a Futurist church and shouting "70 AD" throughout the sermon.


----------



## Vectorman

Artfuldodger said:


> How do you explain to someone they are saved by grace and not works but also explain to them that if they don't produce works they aren't saved?



I'm not saying they are not saved, I'm saying that because of their behavior, we have to exclude them from participating in fellowship with the other believers at this church. Paul describes such an issue in 1 Cor 5. Then in 2 Cor 2 he describes bringing the now repentant believer back into the fellowship.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Vectorman said:


> I'm not saying they are not saved, I'm saying that because of their behavior, we have to exclude them from participating in fellowship with the other believers at this church. Paul describes such an issue in 1 Cor 5. Then in 2 Cor 2 he describes bringing the now repentant believer back into the fellowship.



OK, I think I figured out what you meant after I asked. That's the way I see it too.

That being said though, it makes it sound like we are saying to them "you are good enough for God, but not us."


----------



## Vectorman

Artfuldodger said:


> OK, I think I figured out what you meant after I asked. That's the way I see it too.
> 
> That being said though, it makes it sound like we are saying to them "you are good enough for God, but not us."



It's probably one of the most difficult things you will ever have to do in church leadership. It always causes strained relationships not only with the member with the behavior problem but also with their friends/family etc. Not addressing these behavior problems may seem easier but that will cause worse behavior issues in the future.

The Bible speaks many times about leaven(sin) starting small but eventually working it's way through the whole batch.


----------



## centerpin fan

Vectorman said:


> For salvation? No



So the guy in the OP, the unrepentant gay prostitute, could be a saved.  Correct?


----------



## Vectorman

centerpin fan said:


> So the guy in the OP, the unrepentant gay prostitute, could be a saved.  Correct?



Correct


----------



## Vectorman

It's probably very clear but I'll go ahead and spell out my position for everybody:

Salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone. It is trusting in the finished work of Christ for one's salvation. You can do no works to attain it, you can do no works to maintain it. It is normally followed by changes in one's behavior but this is a process that happens over the remainder of one's lifetime. This behavior change is not an automatic event especially with a new believer that is not discipled by a church or other believers.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ephesians 2:8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.

Maybe the couple in the OP were the result of "bad workmanship."

Nope, the verse says "created in Christ Jesus to do good works."


----------



## Artfuldodger

Zechariah 12:10
"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

It does take grace to make one repent. From the "Things grace can do" thread.


----------



## welderguy

Repentance is a result of salvation, not the cause of it...
No matter which sin you insert into the scenario.

"We love Him because He first loved us."
".. the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance.."


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> Repentance is a result of salvation, not the cause of it...
> No matter which sin you insert into the scenario.
> 
> "We love Him because He first loved us."
> ".. the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance.."



To beat Centerpin Fan to the punch, what about the couple in the OP? They said that God has elected them for salvation yet they are in no way going to repent from sin.

Considering that grace leads to repentance, and we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, what do we conclude about the couple in the OP?

Not to deny that one's repentance from sin comes from God's grace.


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> To beat Centerpin Fan to the punch, what about the couple in the OP? They said that God has elected them for salvation yet they are in no way going to repent from sin.
> 
> Considering that grace leads to repentance, and we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, what do we conclude about the couple in the OP?
> 
> Not to deny that one's repentance from sin comes from God's grace.



If they claim to be elect and claim to have a desire to follow Jesus, why would they want to continue in their sinful rebellion?

Bible says destruction of the flesh happens outside the church. This is why folks are sometimes turned out, for their own good.


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> ..., what do we conclude about the couple in the OP?



Are we instructed/commanded to "conclude"?
Are we instructed relative to the case in question?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> Are we instructed/commanded to "conclude"?
> Are we instructed relative to the case in question?



Romans 2:1-3
You therefore have no excuse, you who pass judgment on another. For on whatever grounds you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2And we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, O man, pass judgment on others, yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment?

Leave the tares in the wheat.

I would say we are not instructed to "conclude."

Relative to the case in question, I would say we are saved by grace and not of works. If it happens any other way, none of us are saved.


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 2:1-3
> You therefore have no excuse, you who pass judgment on another. For on whatever grounds you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2And we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, O man, pass judgment on others, yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment?
> 
> Leave the tares in the wheat.
> 
> I would say we are not instructed to "conclude."
> 
> Relative to the case in question, I would say we are saved by grace and not of works. If it happens any other way, none of us are saved.



Paul made judgement concerning one who was in the church. 

1 Corinthians 5:3
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,


As stewards in the church, we must make proper judgements to preserve the integrity and sanctity of  it, and to lovingly discipline those who need it. (keyword-need)


----------



## Artfuldodger

So now we are back to the OP. "I gay couple walks into a Church."

Do they get discipline or kicked out? Must they repent? Within who's hands lies their salvation?    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Is salvation some type of a "Catch-22?"


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 2:1-3
> You therefore have no excuse, you who pass judgment on another. For on whatever grounds you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2And we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, O man, pass judgment on others, yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment?
> 
> Leave the tares in the wheat.
> 
> I would say we are not instructed to "conclude."




I thought to address a lack of scripture, but you are correct; I had forgotten that Rm. 2:1-16 is telling all believers at Rome, and thereby revealing the precept, that when they observe those who appear not to have gotten the message (Rm. 1) they must not apply to others those instructions found elsewhere for self-evaluation (and in some cases for discerning of prophets).  To do so would assume an awareness of God's eternal plan which has not been revealed, leaving them, or us, with "no excuse". 



Artfuldodger said:


> Relative to the case in question, I would say we are saved by grace and not of works. If it happens any other way, none of us are saved.



Agreed.

Welder has identified the passage I was thinking of in asking the second question.  1 Cor. 5 and the follow up in 2 Cor. 2 Paul addresses judgment of a type that, unlike individual salvation, is required of God's people both in the NT and extensively in the revelation through Moses; which commandments insure that His declared purpose for His People will be fulfilled (that being that His holiness will be known).




welderguy said:


> Paul made judgement concerning one who was in the church.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 5:3
> 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
> 
> 
> As stewards in the church, we must make proper judgements to preserve the integrity and sanctity of  it, and to lovingly discipline those who need it. (keyword-need)


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> So now we are back to the OP. "I gay couple walks into a Church."
> 
> Do they get discipline or kicked out? Must they repent? Within who's hands lies their salvation?
> Is salvation some type of a "Catch-22?"



I don't think your questions address the OP.


----------



## Artfuldodger

It didn't but I don't see anyone with an answer yet.  Other than repentance of sin is a result of salvation, not the cause of salvation.
That answer is good enough for me. If God can't save me by grace then I can't save myself by repentance.


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> It didn't but I don't see anyone with an answer yet.  Other than repentance of sin is a result of salvation, not the cause of salvation.



Basically, all I'm saying is why take them in if you are going to have to turn them right back out because of their refusal to stop their grossly lascivious lifestyle?

Makes no sense.

If the OP had left out the "unrepentance" detail, my answer most likely would have been different.


----------



## hummerpoo

Do I understand correctly, you are concerned that no one has answered a question that has not been asked?  
Or is it that you haven't gotten the answers that you want when you ask a series of questions?
I'm lost.


----------



## centerpin fan

welderguy said:


> Basically, all I'm saying is why take them in ...



Because they believe the exact same thing about Jesus that you do.




welderguy said:


> ... because of their refusal to stop their grossly lascivious lifestyle?



Is it a sinful lifestyle?


----------



## Artfuldodger

b) “As a sinner saved by grace, I welcome you. For the sake of your soul, though, I must quote the Apostle Peter in Acts 3: ‘Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.’ ” 

Maybe this repentance is a change of mind and not a repentance of sin. 

The OP must be a hard question considering the lack of responses. Maybe someone could sum up how they feel about it again as I'm still a bit confused by some of the answers.

If they profess to having salvation, do we accept them in or turn them away? Considering they do not want to repent? Would it make any difference if they expressed a desire to change but a weakness too strong to allow them to change?


----------



## welderguy

centerpin fan said:


> Because they believe the exact same thing about Jesus that you do.



"the devils also believe and tremble"





centerpin fan said:


> Is it a sinful lifestyle?



Definitely


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> The OP must be a hard question considering the lack of responses.



The only part that is questionable in my mind relates to:
1Co 5:9  I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—
1Co 5:10  not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 
1Co 5:11  But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one.

Paul is talking about one who is a recognized member of the congregation; one who the congregation is apparently quite pleased to call a member (1Co 5:2)  "And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you."

The OP deals with one who apparently was unknown before he walked in off the street and introduced himself for membership.

To me that makes a difference.  Not at all on the question of membership, that is made impossible by the prospective members declarations; but as to the question of interaction with the individual: 

1Co 5:12  For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 
1Co 5:13  God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you." 

Interaction with the individual in the OP, beyond the question of membership,  it seems to me should be guided as though they were (1Co 5:10) "...the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.", which would mean that, as I implied in an earlier post, that they should be treated as any other none believer — without making any denial of their profession of faith and brotherhood (1 Pet. 3:15)


----------



## SemperFiDawg

Alright CPF.  You've heard ours.  What's your thoughts?


----------



## centerpin fan

SemperFiDawg said:


> Alright CPF.  You've heard ours.  What's your thoughts?



I would go with "b" or one of the excellent "c's" we've had.


----------



## centerpin fan

welderguy said:


> "the devils also believe and tremble"
> 
> Definitely



I'm trying to find a consistent logic in your position, but I can't.  (Not saying it's not there.  Just saying I can't find it.)

From what I can tell from reading your posts:

1)  Repentance is completely unnecessary for salvation.

2)  Believing exactly as you do about Jesus does not mean you're a Christian.

Feel free to correct me and/or flesh that out.


----------



## welderguy

centerpin fan said:


> I'm trying to find a consistent logic in your position, but I can't.  (Not saying it's not there.  Just saying I can't find it.)
> 
> From what I can tell from reading your posts:
> 
> 1)  Repentance is completely unnecessary for salvation.
> 
> 2)  Believing exactly as you do about Jesus does not mean you're a Christian.
> 
> Feel free to correct me and/or flesh that out.



To me, it seems you are the one not being consistent. 
The OP is regarding repentance to become a member of the church.
Now you are making it about repentance unto salvation.

They are not synonymous, although it seems you are equating them as such.

Many people join churches that are not saved(wolves in sheep clothing).


----------



## centerpin fan

welderguy said:


> The OP is regarding repentance to become a member of the church.
> Now you are making it about repentance unto salvation.
> 
> They are not synonymous, although it seems you are equating them as such.



I've always understood them to be synonymous, and that's what I meant in the OP.  Sorry if that was not clear.


----------



## welderguy

centerpin fan said:


> I've always understood them to be synonymous, and that's what I meant in the OP.  Sorry if that was not clear.



So you believe every person who ever joined a  Christian church is saved?


----------



## Israel

No fault in the OP as being representational...it probably could be.
But one of the matters at hand is obviously:
 "I struggled with reconciling my homosexuality with Christianity for years. After reading several gay Christian websites, though, I now realize that God made me gay, and homosexuality is not a sin.”

Appears a fair admission that this person's convincing (convictions) didn't come from the Spirit. One more or less admits such in that conversation.
That remains a greater issue...not only to that individual...but to what is of all called the "church".


----------



## centerpin fan

welderguy said:


> So you believe every person who ever joined a  Christian church is saved?



Not "a" church -- "the" church.

"And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved."  -- Acts 2:47


----------



## welderguy

centerpin fan said:


> Not "a" church -- "the" church.
> 
> "And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved."  -- Acts 2:47



So all this time we weren't even talking about a local assembly?

Isn't that the way it's used in that text?( ekklhsia)


----------



## centerpin fan

welderguy said:


> So all this time we weren't even talking about a local assembly?



Of course we were talking about a local assembly.  I was just answering your question in post 198.


----------



## welderguy

centerpin fan said:


> Of course we were talking about a local assembly.  I was just answering your question in post 198.



So you take that to mean every person that joins a local assembly Christian Church has eternal salvation​?

And the one's who don't? What about them?


----------



## centerpin fan

welderguy said:


> So you take that to mean every person that joins a local assembly Christian Church has eternal salvation​?



No, not at all.  

I started this thread to see if people thought repentance was necessary for salvation.  The guy in the OP has not repented and has no intention of doing so.  Vectorman has already said that didn't matter, and the guy could still be saved.  Do you agree with that?


----------



## welderguy

centerpin fan said:


> No, not at all.
> 
> I started this thread to see if people thought repentance was necessary for salvation.  The guy in the OP has not repented and has no intention of doing so.  Vectorman has already said that didn't matter, and the guy could still be saved.  Do you agree with that?



God doesn't need us to DO anything in order to save us. Our salvation was determined before creation. 
Having said that, BECAUSE of our salvation, He calls us out of our darkness and deadness unto repentance.
So, like I already said, repentance is the result of, not the cause of salvation. 

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,


----------



## centerpin fan

welderguy said:


> So, like I already said, repentance is the result of, not the cause of salvation.



We'll just have to agree to disagree on that.


----------



## welderguy

centerpin fan said:


> We'll just have to agree to disagree on that.



But do you agree that salvation was determined before creation?


----------



## centerpin fan

welderguy said:


> But do you agree that salvation was determined before creation?



I'm a free will kind of guy, if that's where you're going.


----------



## welderguy

centerpin fan said:


> I'm a free will kind of guy, if that's where you're going.



So, as a free willer, how would you interpret 2 Tim.1:9-10 ?


----------



## centerpin fan

welderguy said:


> So, as a free willer, how would you interpret 2 Tim.1:9-10 ?



Differently than you.


----------



## welderguy

centerpin fan said:


> Differently than you.



Care to elaborate?


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> So, as a free willer, how would you interpret 2 Tim.1:9-10 ?



Ephesians 2:8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.

Does verse 10 tell us we repent as a result of God's workmanship?  Let's say one receives salvation by grace. Does God follow with his workmanship and exactly what is that workmanship if not repentance? 

So instead of saying "you must repent" for salvation, should we say "you will repent" because of God's workmanship?


----------



## Artfuldodger

If salvation is contingent with my self ability to repent from sin, why didn't I just repent from sin without the death of Jesus?

If salvation is contingent with repentance from sin as a result of God's workmanship,why didn't God just make me stop sinning and not send his Son to die for my sins?

Regardless of how one looks at it, if my salvation is contingent on my repentance from sin, why did I need Jesus? 

If salvation is contingent on repentance from sin, why is this any different from the Old Covenant? 
What was the point of the death of Christ, when all that was really needed was for me to quit sinning?


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> Ephesians 2:8-10
> For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.
> 
> Does verse 10 tell us we repent as a result of God's workmanship?  Let's say one get's salvation by grace. Does God follow with his workmanship and exactly what is that workmanship if not repentance?
> 
> So instead of saying "you must repent" for salvation, should we say "you will repent" because of God's workmanship?



That's what I've been saying.
Repentance is the result, not the cause.


----------



## centerpin fan

welderguy said:


> Care to elaborate?



I just think Calvin (and Augustine before him) read too much into that verse.  The gospel of grace is freely given, but God requires a response from us.


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> I just think Calvin (and Augustine before him) read too much into that verse.  The gospel of grace is freely given, but God requires a response from us.



And you believe that response is more than "Yes, I believe Jesus died for my inability to stop sinning. I've tried to live a righteous life of no sin and I can't. I now want to change my mind(repent) from thinking that I can stop sinning and now believe that Jesus died for my inability. I truly believe that Jesus has accepted my sins and has wiped my slate clean. I no longer have that yoke or burden on my shoulders."


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> ... "you will repent" because of God's workmanship?



That's not what the OT prophets, John the Baptist, Jesus, and the apostles said.


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> And you believe that response is more than "Yes, I believe Jesus died for my inability to stop sinning. I've tried to live a righteous life of no sin and I can't. I now want to change my mind(repent) from thinking that I can stop sinning and now believe that Jesus died for my inability. I truly believe that Jesus has accepted my sins and has wiped my slate clean. I no longer have that yoke or burden on my shoulders."



The story of Zacchaeus is a good example of what I'm talking about.


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> The story of Zacchaeus is a good example of what I'm talking about.



Interesting that Jesus called him by name.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Luke 19:8
And Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, “Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor. And if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I restore it fourfold.”

Where is the lesson on repentance? He's already doing what some interpretations use as a future repentance?


----------



## egomaniac247

Here's a legit question to all who have said that you either wouldn't accept the gay guy into your church or would talk to him about his sin...

This is a legit question that I've wondered about...



> Leviticus 11:7-8 reads: And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you. Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you.



Is eating bacon a sin?



> Leviticus 19:28 states: Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.



Do you have tattoos?



> Leviticus 19:27 states: Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.



???



> Exodus 21:17 states: "And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death."



Cussed your mom or dad under your breath as a teenager?



> Exodus 31:14-15 states: "Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.



Worked on Sunday?



> 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 states: Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.



How's your wife feel about this?



> Leviticus 10-11 states: And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you: They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.



Like shrimp?  Crabs?



> Deuteronomy 22:20-21 states: But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredCensored in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you



Had sex before marriage?



And the biggie.....if being gay is immoral and wrong what about the # of people in the land (probably some of you) who've had a DIVORCE?



> Mark 10:11-12 states: Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.






Now to be clear, I am not trying to contradict anyone or serve up a "gotcha" moment.  I'm legitimately confused by this stuff as a Christian.  I fully acknowledge that the Bible says that homosexuality is immoral.  I can read that plain as day.  But do we just ignore these other things that ARE ALSO in the Bible?


----------



## gordon 2

egomaniac247 said:


> Here's a legit question to all who have said that you either wouldn't accept the gay guy into your church or would talk to him about his sin...
> 
> This is a legit question that I've wondered about...
> 
> 
> 
> Is eating bacon a sin?
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have tattoos?
> 
> 
> 
> ???
> 
> 
> 
> Cussed your mom or dad under your breath as a teenager?
> 
> 
> 
> Worked on Sunday?
> 
> 
> 
> How's your wife feel about this?
> 
> 
> 
> Like shrimp?  Crabs?
> 
> 
> 
> Had sex before marriage?
> 
> 
> 
> And the biggie.....if being gay is immoral and wrong what about the # of people in the land (probably some of you) who've had a DIVORCE?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now to be clear, I am not trying to contradict anyone or serve up a "gotcha" moment.  I'm legitimately confused by this stuff as a Christian.  I fully acknowledge that the Bible says that homosexuality is immoral.  I can read that plain as day.  But do we just ignore these other things that ARE ALSO in the Bible?



Romans and 1  Corinthians will help clear up things hopefully. And it is a short read comparatively.

Sins against the body or sexual sins are a biggy for PAUL. They compete for the body against the Spirit of a believer or Jesus in the life of a saint. Therefore sexual sins distort Christianity itself, because the body of a christian has specific purpose after an individual is in Christ. Unnatural sexual activities, that is acts not in conformity to the initial designs of creation, are taboo in classic spiritual terms because they distort the will of God for the body.

Other sins are sins against GOD.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I think we've reached the point to discuss what is repentance of sin?

1 Corinthians 6:9-12
have ye not known that the unrighteous the reign of God shall not inherit? be not led astray; neither *****mongers, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor sodomites,
10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. 12“Everything is permissible for me,” but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me,” but I will not be mastered by anything.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Let's go with "the greedy." Must a greedy person "repent" before receiving salvation or will he stop being greedy by the workmanship of God after being granted salvation?

Does  the "washing" keep him from being greedy or did it cover his greediness sin?


----------



## centerpin fan

egomaniac247 said:


> Here's a legit question to all who have said that you either wouldn't accept the gay guy into your church or would talk to him about his sin...
> 
> This is a legit question that I've wondered about...
> 
> 
> 
> Is eating bacon a sin?
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have tattoos?
> 
> 
> 
> ???
> 
> 
> 
> Cussed your mom or dad under your breath as a teenager?
> 
> 
> 
> Worked on Sunday?
> 
> 
> 
> How's your wife feel about this?
> 
> 
> 
> Like shrimp?  Crabs?
> 
> 
> 
> Had sex before marriage?
> 
> 
> 
> And the biggie.....if being gay is immoral and wrong what about the # of people in the land (probably some of you) who've had a DIVORCE?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now to be clear, I am not trying to contradict anyone or serve up a "gotcha" moment.  I'm legitimately confused by this stuff as a Christian.  I fully acknowledge that the Bible says that homosexuality is immoral.  I can read that plain as day.  But do we just ignore these other things that ARE ALSO in the Bible?



Do a search, and you'll find all these issues discussed ad nauseum.


----------



## centerpin fan

Well, we've already been told the gay prostitute doesn't have to repent.  In another thread, we were told adulterers don't need to repent.  Therefore, I'm guessing the greedy can pass on repentance as well.


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> Well, we've already been told the gay prostitute doesn't have to repent.  In another thread, we were told adulterers don't need to repent.  Therefore, I'm guessing the greedy can pass on repentance as well.



But you, you have repented from sin?


----------



## hummerpoo

egomaniac247 said:


> And the biggie..


IF it is "the biggie", the first question is "who made it "the biggie"?  Scripture doesn't give it that status.


> ...if being gay is immoral and wrong what about the # of people in the land (probably some of you) who've had a DIVORCE?


What about them?



> Now to be clear, I am not trying to contradict anyone or serve up a "gotcha" moment.


If the answers you seek are to be found, it will be in diligent, prayerful study, not by throwing up lists on an internet forum.


----------



## welderguy

centerpin fan said:


> Well, we've already been told the gay prostitute doesn't have to repent.  In another thread, we were told adulterers don't need to repent.  Therefore, I'm guessing the greedy can pass on repentance as well.



Your original question should have been "Is grace required for repentance?"

And your answer(I hope) would have been "YES!".

Rom.5:17
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> But you, you have repented from sin?



I don't know any Christian who hasn't.  And, I might add, I never heard it was even up for discussion until reading the GON spiritual forum.


----------



## centerpin fan

welderguy said:


> Your original question should have been "Is grace required for repentance?"



I think the OP is fine as it is.


----------



## welderguy

centerpin fan said:


> I think the OP is fine as it is.



Ok, then what part of UN-merited favor do you not understand?


----------



## centerpin fan

welderguy said:


> Ok, then what part of UN-merited favor do you not understand?



I think I understand it pretty well.  I just don't think repentance negates it.


----------



## welderguy

centerpin fan said:


> I think I understand it pretty well.  I just don't think repentance negates it.



So, in essence, you're saying "faith without works is dead". I agree wholeheartedly. They go hand in hand.

But here's what one must realize, that you cannot manufacture faith by doing works. Faith is a gift from God.  If you've been given faith, then you are enabled to do good works.


----------



## centerpin fan

welderguy said:


> So, in essence, you're saying "faith without works is dead". I agree wholeheartedly. They go hand in hand.
> 
> But here's what one must realize, that you cannot manufacture faith by doing works. Faith is a gift from God.  If you've been given faith, then you are enabled to do good works.



Is repentance a work?


----------



## welderguy

centerpin fan said:


> Is repentance a work?



yes.
It's what we are created unto, if we are "in Christ".

Ephesians 2:10
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


----------



## centerpin fan

welderguy said:


> yes.



That's where we fundamentally disagree.

Now, I'm going fishing.


----------



## welderguy

centerpin fan said:


> That's where we fundamentally disagree.
> 
> Now, I'm going fishing.



If it's anything that you could boast in that you did, scripture describes it as works.

Hope you catch a big one.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I guess I need an updated definition of repenting of sin? Is it to stop sinning or to try and stop sinning? Must the drunkard repent from drinking to gain salvation or must he gain salvation and then try to stop drinking? How long does he have or how many tries before his salvation is removed? That really makes salvation a rollercoaster dependent on repentance of sin.

Does salvation wax and wane with the drunkards drinking and soberness?

I'm not sure trying to not sin equals repenting of sin.


----------



## hobbs27

So works can't bring salvation but they can prevent you from salvation?


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> So works can't bring salvation but they can prevent you from salvation?



Our works do nothing for nor against eternal salvation.

Christ's finished work at Calvary, on the other hand, accomplished it all for us.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Our works do nothing for nor against eternal salvation.
> 
> Christ's finished work at Calvary, on the other hand, accomplished it all for us.



 Are our works just for others to judge if we are saved or not?


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Are our works just for others to judge if we are saved or not?



Ha. of course not.
Good works are for the glory of God, not man.


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> I don't know any Christian who hasn't.  And, I might add, I never heard it was even up for discussion until reading the GON spiritual forum.



What is your definition of repentance from sin?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Galatians 3:3
How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?

But if it doesn't take human effort?

Ezekiel 18:24
"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.


----------



## Vectorman

The biggest problem today about repentance is that we automatically insert "of sin" anytime we see the word repentance in the Bible. The true definition as I understand it is to change you mind or direction. There are places where the Bible say to repent of a specific sin. ex. Acts 8:22 where Peter tells Simon to repent of wanting to buy the power of the Holy Spirit. But, if you look at Genesis 6:6 or Exodus 32:14 in the KJV you will see that God repented. Obviously He didn't turn from sin, He changed his mind. This is how it should be read in the rest of the bible. So, everytime you see the word repent, or repentance, read it as "change my mind about". It will clear things up.

Let's look at one example. Acts 17:29-31

Acts 17:29-31(NIV)

29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to *repent*. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

This word "repent" should be read as "change their mind about".....about what?...about thinking that God was an image carved out of gold, silver, or stone by human hands.

Dr. Mike Halsey wrote an excellent book called "Truthspeak" it's available on Amazon and addresses this issue and several others. I suggest taking a look at it.

https://www.amazon.com/Truthspeak-C...4093&sr=8-4-fkmr1&keywords=truth+speak+halsey


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> Galatians 3:3
> How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?
> 
> But if it doesn't take human effort?
> 
> Ezekiel 18:24
> "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.



When the righteous man fell into sin, he experienced the death that James tells us about.

James 1:14-15
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.


Paul said "when sin revived, I died..."


----------



## centerpin fan

Vectorman said:


> The biggest problem today about repentance is that we automatically insert "of sin" anytime we see the word repentance in the Bible. The true definition as I understand it is to change you mind or direction. There are places where the Bible say to repent of a specific sin. ex. Acts 8:22 where Peter tells Simon to repent of wanting to buy the power of the Holy Spirit. But, if you look at Genesis 6:6 or Exodus 32:14 in the KJV you will see that God repented. Obviously He didn't turn from sin, He changed his mind. This is how it should be read in the rest of the bible. So, everytime you see the word repent, or repentance, read it as "change my mind about". It will clear things up.
> 
> Let's look at one example. Acts 17:29-31
> 
> Acts 17:29-31(NIV)
> 
> 29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to *repent*. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”
> 
> This word "repent" should be read as "change their mind about".....about what?...about thinking that God was an image carved out of gold, silver, or stone by human hands.
> 
> Dr. Mike Halsey wrote an excellent book called "Truthspeak" it's available on Amazon and addresses this issue and several others. I suggest taking a look at it.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Truthspeak-C...4093&sr=8-4-fkmr1&keywords=truth+speak+halsey



... but you can't compare God (Who is incapable of sin) to man (whose nature is to sin).  Yes, repentance is changing our mind -- about sin!  Look at Zacchaeus.  He didn't change his mind about "who Jesus is".  He changed his mind about his sin.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Ha. of course not.
> Good works are for the glory of God, not man.



Then God glorifies Himself in His works through man? 

 What does that say of the reprobate,  what is God doing through them?


----------



## Israel

What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction? What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory — 

Not unlike watching this, marveling at the patience and humility revealed...that is eventually the villain's undoing. Let a man think he's one thing for as long as he needs to, while thinking completely wrong of you. Let a man have all his inferences and presumptions and assumptions...even if he must, think it was you who gave them.
let him build, as it were..."precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little, there a little" 
He will fall backward...and be snared.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Then God glorifies Himself in His works through man?
> 
> What does that say of the reprobate,  what is God doing through them?



What brother Israel said...

And this...

Psalm 76:10
10 Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain


----------



## Oak-flat Hunter

Christ said love them as I have loved You.


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> ... but you can't compare God (Who is incapable of sin) to man (whose nature is to sin).  Yes, repentance is changing our mind -- about sin!  Look at Zacchaeus.  He didn't change his mind about "who Jesus is".  He changed his mind about his sin.



I'm not sure the story of Zacchaeus is about repentance from sin. First Zacchaeus didn't say he repented from sin. He was already giving half of his possessions to the poor.
Their is no mention of his faith or his belief in Jesus.

Luke 19:8-9
And Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, “Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor. And if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I restore it fourfold.”9And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, since he also is a son of Abraham.

Perhaps it is a story of election as Jesus knew his name. Jesus responds that Zacchaeus is a true son of Abraham.(christian)
It could be a story that salvation was not just for the Jews instead of repentance of sin.

Just another way of looking at the story. Not the way I was taught but I could have been taught wrong.


----------



## Vectorman

Zacchaeus(Zac) probably suffered his entire life because of his being vertically challenged. This may be the reason he decided to become a tax collector, to get back at his own people for the lifetime of abuse. He even progressed to the position of chief tax collector. Zac had obviously heard the stories about this Jesus who some said was the Messiah. He knew that bacause he was a tax collector, he was considered to be beyond forgiveness but he also knew the the Messiah would forgive all sin. He ran like a child and climbed a tree like a child just to get a look at this Jesus character who everyone was talking about and when Jesus called him by name and asked to come to his house without ever have even met him, Zac at that moment believed. Vs. 6 stated that Zac welcomed him(Jesus) gladly. Zac's vow to give half of his wealth to the poor and to pay restitution to those that he defrauded was and example of what John the Baptist commanded to "produce fruit in keeping with repentance". The repentance here was when Zac believed that Jesus was the christ. The offer of restitution was the fruit of that decision.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Luke 19:3
And he was trying to see who Jesus was, and he was unable because of the crowd, for he was small in stature.

Does “short of stature” refer to height, or was Zacchaeus short on social stature, therefore unable to penetrate the crowd?

Perhaps the verb is translated in the progressive present tense. “Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have defrauded any one of anything, I restore it fourfold.”

We should all try and repent from sinning but I don't see this story as pertaining to that message. There are better accounts in the Bible to teach that message.


----------



## Vectorman

Artfuldodger said:


> Luke 19:3
> And he was trying to see who Jesus was, and he was unable because of the crowd, for he was small in stature.
> 
> Does “short of stature” refer to height, or was Zacchaeus short on social stature, therefore unable to penetrate the crowd



I think it was both, reading it almost makes me think that Zac Might have had a form of dwarfism. This would have put him at the bottom of the social structure and then that was compounded by his position as a tax collector.

It's hard not to study Zacchaeus without humming that song we all learned in Sunday school


----------



## Artfuldodger

Vectorman said:


> I think it was both, reading it almost makes me think that Zac Might have had a form of dwarfism. This would have put him at the bottom of the social structure and then that was compounded by his position as a tax collector.
> 
> It's hard not to study Zacchaeus without humming that song we all learned in Sunday school



A wee little man was he!


----------



## welderguy

Jesus "knew" Zacheus, the same way He "knew" Nathaniel.

Remember, Jesus said to Nathaniel,"when thou wast under the fig tree, I knew thee."

2 Timothy 2:19
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.


If you've been called by His Spirit, it's an effectual call. He "knew" you specifically. It's not a general call to all. It's specific and intimate. He calls you by your name. And you are a new creature afterward "in Christ", forever.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> What brother Israel said...
> 
> And this...
> 
> Psalm 76:10
> 10 Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain



I've looked at this psalm a few times and I just can't seem to get the context into our discussion. I think I understand what you're saying, that both the righteous and unrighteous glorify God? 

 I'm just not sure how the unrighteous glorify God since their own demise is to perish. Not worthy of being in the presence of God.



*“God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong, but I can't. If a thing is free to be good it's also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata -of creatures that worked like machines- would hardly be worth creating. The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they've got to be free.
Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently, He thought it worth the risk. (...) If God thinks this state of war in the universe a price worth paying for free will -that is, for making a real world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings- then we may take it it is worth paying.”


â€• C.S. Lewis, The Case for Christianity*


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> I've looked at this psalm a few times and I just can't seem to get the context into our discussion. I think I understand what you're saying, that both the righteous and unrighteous glorify God?
> 
> I'm just not sure how the unrighteous glorify God since their own demise is to perish. Not worthy of being in the presence of God.
> 
> [/B]



Yet you believe everything leading up to 70AD was predestined to even include some election. So you, not being able to see it, is wrong because you've already admitted that it existed at one time.

I don't think the psalm is saying the unrighteous glorify God. What it's saying is "the unrighteous glorify God."
They glorify God by letting the survivors see it and realize they have escaped it.

Isn't there a passage where the reprobates think the teaching is foolish to show the way for the believes?
It's something along those lines.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Yet you believe everything leading up to 70AD was predestined to even include some election.



You keep saying that. I keep denying it,  I've never said  everything leading up to the end. 

 Yes,  God's plan for our eternal covenant was set in place long ago,  and God directed things to bring it into place...but man was no robot.  The Jew's were drawn into the new covenant,  they were preached to,  they saw the Holy Spirit fall on Gentiles... And many still chose not to believe .


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> You keep saying that. I keep denying it,  I've never said  everything leading up to the end.
> 
> Yes,  God's plan for our eternal covenant was set in place long ago,  and God directed things to bring it into place...but man was no robot.  The Jew's were drawn into the new covenant,  they were preached to,  they saw the Holy Spirit fall on Gentiles... And many still chose not to believe .



Then what you are saying is God left the destruction of Jerusalem to chance. I apologize but I thought I remember you saying God used election prior to 70AD.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> I've looked at this psalm a few times and I just can't seem to get the context into our discussion. I think I understand what you're saying, that both the righteous and unrighteous glorify God?
> 
> I'm just not sure how the unrighteous glorify God since their own demise is to perish. Not worthy of being in the presence of God.



I don't think it's saying that the unrighteous glorify God, but rather, His wrath upon them glorifies Him.
(remember, without faith it's impossible to please God)
There are vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction. That is their purpose and He's sovereign over His creation.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> I don't think it's saying that the unrighteous glorify God, but rather, His wrath upon them glorifies Him.
> (remember, without faith it's impossible to please God)
> There are vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction. That is their purpose and He's sovereign over His creation.



God made a reprobate just to take His wrath out on them so it glorified Him... God is glorifying God in this case, since man can do nothing of his self.  Is this how you understand it?


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> God made a reprobate just to take His wrath out on them so it glorified Him... God is glorifying God in this case, since man can do nothing of his self.  Is this how you understand it?



Yes.
Do you think He's unjust in this?


----------



## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> Yes,  God's plan for our eternal covenant was set in place long ago,  and God directed things to bring it into place...but man was no robot.


Of course man is not a robot. God controls man and the robot.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Yes.
> Do you think He's unjust in this?



No,  I don't think He does it. I'm in agreement with C. S.  Lewis statement I posted earlier.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> No,  I don't think He does it. I'm in agreement with C. S.  Lewis statement I posted earlier.



C.S. Lewis says God "took a risk".

You buy into that?

There's no risk with God in my belief.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> C.S. Lewis says God "took a risk".
> 
> You buy into that?
> 
> There's no risk with God in my belief.



 How else can man praise and worship God? 

Is it praise if God makes us do it?  Is it worship if we are just doing what we're forced to do? 
 C. S.  Lewis makes shocking points at times to get his point across.  Risky for God?  Well He is just that sovereign if He so wishes to be regardless of the limits Calvinism places on Him.


----------



## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> How else can man praise and worship God?


God controls the reluctance.


hobbs27 said:


> Is it praise if God makes us do it?  Is it worship if we are just doing what we're forced to do?


Of course it is. God controls the resistance, force is not required.


----------



## hobbs27

gemcgrew said:


> God controls the reluctance.
> 
> Of course it is. God controls the resistance, force is not required.




So it is your position that we worship God on our own freewill,  but if we decide not to worship He stops that?


----------



## Artfuldodger

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I'm pretty sure God didn't take a risk that the Word might die on a cross.


----------



## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> So it is your position that we worship God on our own freewill,  but if we decide not to worship He stops that?


No Hobbs, that would be the position of an egocentric will-worshipper.

My position is that God controls every thing that is a thing.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> God made a reprobate just to take His wrath out on them so it glorified Him... God is glorifying God in this case, since man can do nothing of his self.  Is this how you understand it?



I was just reading the thread on "How to get  power from God to overcome sin." Banjopicker who by the way may be a robot said;

According to the Bible, God has all power, and there is no power that is not ordained of God (1 Chron. 29:11, 12; 2 Chron. 20:6; Ps. 62:11; Zech. 4:6; Rom. 13:1-3). If all power is of God and if Satan's power was given him by God, then it is clear who has all power. 

Can't we compare Satan's power to that of the reprobate as to it's origin?


----------



## SemperFiDawg

I find the notion of salvation before repentance a bit absurd.  Like CPF, I never knew people even considered it.    It's just so non-sensical.  A man who doesn't need repentance doesn't need a savior, and a savior who doesn't require repentance is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist and thus his existence itself is self contradictory.


----------



## hobbs27

gemcgrew said:


> No Hobbs, that would be the position of an egocentric will-worshipper.
> 
> My position is that God controls every thing that is a thing.



Things... 

 If you love something , set it free. If it comes back it is yours; if it doesn't it never was.

 I think this is the chance that Lewis says God has taken. 

 If a wife in an arranged marriage submitted to her husband only because he was the husband... Would the husband feel loved?  I wouldn't.


----------



## Artfuldodger

SemperFiDawg said:


> I find the notion of salvation before repentance a bit absurd.  Like CPF, I never knew people even considered it.    It's just so non-sensical.  A man who doesn't need repentance doesn't need a savior, and a savior who doesn't require repentance is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist and thus his existence itself is self contradictory.



I needed salvation from the sins I couldn't repent from. If I could repent from sin, I wouldn't need a savior.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Things...
> 
> If you love something , set it free. If it comes back it is yours; if it doesn't it never was.
> 
> I think this is the chance that Lewis says God has taken.
> 
> If a wife in an arranged marriage submitted to her husband only because he was the husband... Would the husband feel loved?  I wouldn't.



?? So you're saying God loved some people that were never His ??

?This is man's twisted logic, and is not scriptural.
God foreknew His people, and loved those He foreknew before He created them, and nothing can separate them from His love.


----------



## hummerpoo

The idea of that which God ‘could have’ done involves a too anthropomorphic conception of God’s freedom.   Whatever human freedom means, Divine freedom cannot mean indeterminacy between alternatives and choice of one of them. Perfect goodness can never debate about the end to be attained, and perfect wisdom cannot debate about the means most suited to achieve it.  The freedom of God consists in the fact that no cause other than Himself produced His acts and no external obstacle impedes Him — that His own goodness is the root from which they all grow, and His own omnipotence the air in which they all flower.
CS Lewis; The problem of Pain


----------



## welderguy

SemperFiDawg said:


> I find the notion of salvation before repentance a bit absurd.  Like CPF, I never knew people even considered it.    It's just so non-sensical.  A man who doesn't need repentance doesn't need a savior, and a savior who doesn't require repentance is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist and thus his existence itself is self contradictory.



Do you believe that before a man is regenerated, everything about God is foolishness to him?


----------



## SemperFiDawg

Artfuldodger said:


> I needed salvation from the sins I couldn't repent from. If I could repent from sin, I wouldn't need a savior.



The concept of "sins I couldn't repent from" is foreign to me.  Once the Holy Spirit convicts you that you are guilty of a sin,  WHAT EXACTLY stops you or renders you incapable of asking God for forgiveness of that/those sins and help in turning from them?


----------



## SemperFiDawg

welderguy said:


> Do you believe that before a man is regenerated, everything about God is foolishness to him?



Not sure what you mean by regenerated, but Paul makes it very clear in Romans 1 that EVERY ONE is accountable to God from what they can and do clearly understand about him.  No man can claim ignorance and thus innocence.  If they persist in their rebellion it is THEN that they are turned over to their foolish rebellious ways.


----------



## Israel

But some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Him, “Teacher, rebuke Your disciples!” “I tell you, He answered, “if they remain silent, the very stones will cry out.”

There is something going on of which One man knows, and another does not. It has always been and always will be. One thing has said in itself "I will stop it....so I can add...to it.
I will sum it up, and then insert myself to make it greater."
(Another said "I will allow myself removed that it may be seen")

This thing is being dealt with perfectly by what always has been, and always will be.


----------



## Artfuldodger

SemperFiDawg said:


> The concept of "sins I couldn't repent from" is foreign to me.  Once the Holy Spirit convicts you that you are guilty of a sin,  WHAT EXACTLY stops you or renders you incapable of asking God for forgiveness of that/those sins and help in turning from them?



I do ask for forgiveness but still struggle to repent. At one time in my life, I would have said freewill prevents me from repenting. 

Maybe it still is. Maybe it's something so deeply embedded in my flesh that I can't shake until I give up that flesh.

I don't believe I'm the only Christian that struggles with sin. Is the Holy Spirit suppose to stop me from sinning or just make me aware that I'm sinning?


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> ?? So you're saying God loved some people that were never His ??
> 
> ?This is man's twisted logic, and is not scriptural.
> God foreknew His people, and loved those He foreknew before He created them, and nothing can separate them from His love.



Did God give man the biological needs necessary and a command to  be fruitful and multiply?


----------



## Israel

SemperFiDawg said:


> Not sure what you mean by regenerated, but Paul makes it very clear in Romans 1 that EVERY ONE is accountable to God from what they can and do clearly understand about him.  No man can claim ignorance and thus innocence.  If they persist in their rebellion it is THEN that they are turned over to their foolish rebellious ways.



Indeed. But Paul saw another man. Who knew he could never take his stand upon what he knew. Nor be excused by what he didn't know.

I care very little, however, if I am judged by you or by any human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not vindicate me. It is the Lord who judges me.

I am kinda fond of the way this is put:

I have a clear conscience, but that doesn't mean I have God's approval. It is the Lord who cross-examines me.


----------



## hobbs27

All that Calvinist question — Free-Will and Predestination, is to my mind undiscussable, insoluble. Of course (say us) if a man repents God will accept him. Ah yes, (say they) but the fact of his repenting shows that God has already moved him to do so. This at any rate leaves us with the fact that in any concrete case the question never arrives as a practical one. But I suspect it is really a meaningless question. The difference between Freedom and Necessity is fairly clear on the bodily level: we know the difference between making our teeth chatter on purpose and just finding them chattering with cold. It begins to be less clear when we talk of human love (leaving out the erotic kind). ‘Do I like him because I choose or because I must?’ — there are cases where this has an answer, but others where it seems to me to mean nothing. When we carry it up to relations between God and Man, has the distinction perhaps become nonsensical? After all, when we are most free, it is only with a freedom God has given us: and when our will is most influenced by Grace, it is still our will. And if what our will does is not ‘voluntary’, and if ‘voluntary’ does not mean ‘free’, what are we talking about? I’d leave it all alone.
C. S.  Lewis  Yours,  Jack  (p. 186)


----------



## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> Things...
> 
> If you love something , set it free. If it comes back it is yours; if it doesn't it never was.


Hobb's version of a good shepherd.



hobbs27 said:


> I think this is the chance that Lewis says God has taken.


Only a moron sees chance with the God of the Bible. 



hobbs27 said:


> If a wife in an arranged marriage submitted to her husband only because he was the husband... Would the husband feel loved?  I wouldn't.


Your feelings. Your standards.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Did Saul repent and become Paul or did God call on Saul which lead to Paul repenting?


----------



## hummerpoo

hobbs27 said:


> All that Calvinist question — Free-Will and Predestination, is to my mind undiscussable, insoluble. Of course (say us) if a man repents God will accept him. Ah yes, (say they) but the fact of his repenting shows that God has already moved him to do so. This at any rate leaves us with the fact that in any concrete case the question never arrives as a practical one. But I suspect it is really a meaningless question. The difference between Freedom and Necessity is fairly clear on the bodily level: we know the difference between making our teeth chatter on purpose and just finding them chattering with cold. It begins to be less clear when we talk of human love (leaving out the erotic kind). ‘Do I like him because I choose or because I must?’ — there are cases where this has an answer, but others where it seems to me to mean nothing. When we carry it up to relations between God and Man, has the distinction perhaps become nonsensical? After all, when we are most free, it is only with a freedom God has given us: and when our will is most influenced by Grace, it is still our will [which God has given us]. And if what our will does is not ‘voluntary’, and if ‘voluntary’ does not mean ‘free’, what are we talking about? I’d leave it all alone.
> C. S.  Lewis  Yours,  Jack  (p. 186)



I cannot be sure that Mr. Lewis would accept my addition to his words at that place, but I think he would in this case as he himself did when his writings are read in full context (just as is the case in scripture).

Many of us would "leave it all alone", but our will is compelled otherwise, just as Mr. Lewis's will was compelled otherwise.

If we have been determined to speak of, or think of, man's will and God's will we must admit that both can not be sovereign.  Mr. Lewis elsewhere does a good job of explaining that even God can not create something that contradicts his creation.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

Artfuldodger said:


> I do ask for forgiveness but still struggle to repent.



If you are asking for forgiveness, and it is heartfelt, then that is the definition of repentance.  Your statement above is contradictory if that is what you mean by "repent".   Why must everyone struggle with such a simple concept.  Even a child can understand that repentance is just a long word for heartfelt sorrow for an act that injured/offended another.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

gemcgrew said:


> Hobb's version of a good shepherd.
> 
> 
> Only a moron sees chance with the God of the Bible.
> 
> 
> Your feelings. Your standards.



It's not that God has taken a chance on being Sovern.  He is still sovern over creation start to finish, however each individual has free will to accept or reject him.  That decision does not affect his omnipotence nor the overall outcome.  I honestly don't see how anyone can dispute our free will.  Not only did it lead to The Fall but it's evident in those around us every day who reject God.  It's akin to denying your ability to deny.  By denying it, you are in fact affirming it.


----------



## Artfuldodger

SemperFiDawg said:


> If you are asking for forgiveness, and it is heartfelt, then that is the definition of repentance.  Your statement above is contradictory if that is what you mean by "repent".   Why must everyone struggle with such a simple concept.  Even a child can understand that repentance is just a long word for heartfelt sorrow for an act that injured/offended another.



OK, I had the wrong definition. I thought repentance from sin meant to actually quit sinning.

I don't know if that is something that must come before salvation. Maybe repentance(heartfelt sorrow) and salvation happen simultaneously. I can see that concept.

I thought Centerpin was talking about turning from sin being a part of salvation. Maybe that's why he used someone who had no heartfelt sorrow. It's not that one must actually turn from sin but only wishes he could. Maybe?


----------



## welderguy

SemperFiDawg said:


> Not sure what you mean by regenerated, but Paul makes it very clear in Romans 1 that EVERY ONE is accountable to God from what they can and do clearly understand about him.  No man can claim ignorance and thus innocence.  If they persist in their rebellion it is THEN that they are turned over to their foolish rebellious ways.



I think you actually know more than you think you know about regeneration, because you almost described it to a tee in post 281.

What you described could also be referred to as conversion,but they go hand in hand. Its a liberty to walk in newness of life with a new heart.

You mentioned Romans 1,which describes us in our unregenerated state. Now keep reading through chapter 8 to see us described after we are regenerated. Its good stuff!


----------



## Artfuldodger

So for salvation one must have repentance(heartfelt sorrow), faith in God, and believe Jesus died for the sins we can't stop performing or have performed in the past. I guess one has to admit to being a sinner. Admitting being a part of repentance, perhaps?

Somehow tying all of this in with God's grace and God having mercy on whom he will have mercy and Jesus receiving all the Father gives him.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

Artfuldodger said:


> OK, I had the wrong definition. I thought repentance from sin meant to actually quit sinning.
> 
> I don't know if that is something that must come before salvation. Maybe repentance(heartfelt sorrow) and salvation happen simultaneously. I can see that concept.
> 
> I thought Centerpin was talking about turning from sin being a part of salvation. Maybe that's why he used someone who had no heartfelt sorrow. It's not that one must actually turn from sin but only wishes he could. Maybe?



Again.  Making something simple difficult.  Repentance is a heartfelt sorrow for injuring/offending another.  If it's heartfelt you will WANT to stop.  If you don't, it isn't heartfelt thus it's not repentance, just an empty gesture.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

Artfuldodger said:


> So for salvation one must have repentance(heartfelt sorrow), faith in God, and believe Jesus died for the sins.



Just stop here.  He did.


----------



## hobbs27

hummerpoo said:


> I cannot be sure that Mr. Lewis would accept my addition to his words at that place, but I think he would in this case as he himself did when his writings are read in full context (just as is the case in scripture).
> 
> Many of us would "leave it all alone", but our will is compelled otherwise, just as Mr. Lewis's will was compelled otherwise.
> 
> If we have been determined to speak of, or think of, man's will and God's will we must admit that both can not be sovereign.  Mr. Lewis elsewhere does a good job of explaining that even God can not create something that contradicts his creation.




 I can respect that,  and I hope you will understand my bowing out of this discussion for the same reason.  While I have an opinion on it,  I have no real interest in dividing the brethren on the matter of,  "I love God voluntarily " verses,  " God has made me to love Him". 
 The ongoing debate over the hundreds of years I am sure has covered all scripture and all suppositions and no one can decide a winner,  only choose a side... Of which both are on God's side.


----------



## hummerpoo

hobbs27 said:


> I can respect that,  and I hope you will understand my bowing out of this discussion for the same reason.  While I have an opinion on it,  I have no real interest in dividing the brethren on the matter of,  "I love God voluntarily " verses,  " God has made me to love Him".
> The ongoing debate over the hundreds of years I am sure has covered all scripture and all suppositions and no one can decide a winner,  only choose a side... Of which both are on God's side.



All future events, just as all past events, fall under God's control, so I will not predict what I will do, but if someone claims man's power over God's power, I may well be compelled to react.  From my lowly perspective, I can't see that changing until men accept God's sovereignty over man's will, which he has graciously created.

But I do regularly pray for opportunities that might provide perceptible results; but that's just a selfish man asking for satisfaction.


----------



## Israel

SemperFiDawg said:


> It's not that God has taken a chance on being Sovern.  He is still sovern over creation start to finish, however each individual has free will to accept or reject him.  That decision does not affect his omnipotence nor the overall outcome.  I honestly don't see how anyone can dispute our free will.  Not only did it lead to The Fall but it's evident in those around us every day who reject God.  It's akin to denying your ability to deny.  By denying it, you are in fact affirming it.



What choice does a child have in choosing his father?

And even men who are fathers may acknowledge their children as their own...but be extremely hard pressed to say "I chose you as a particular child" (Out of a million sperm)

Men know happenstance by exception (the exception being ignorance of all being perfectly ordered according to an intent eternal) and live in the world of yes...and no...both toward God...and then in perfect consequence toward one another.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

Israel said:


> What choice does a child have in choosing his father?
> 
> And even men who are fathers may acknowledge their children as their own...but be extremely hard pressed to say "I chose you as a particular child" (Out of a million sperm)
> 
> Men know happenstance by exception (the exception being ignorance of all being perfectly ordered according to an intent eternal) and live in the world of yes...and no...both toward God...and then in perfect consequence toward one another.



As usual I have no idea what you are saying nor how it pertains to ...........well quiet frankly, anything.


----------



## gemcgrew

SemperFiDawg said:


> He is still sovern over creation start to finish, however each individual has free will to accept or reject him.


The second part of your statement renders the first part meaningless.


SemperFiDawg said:


> I honestly don't see how anyone can dispute our free will.


You may never be enabled to see it. You may never be enabled to recognize your own contradictions.

You may be enabled to continually flop around.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

gemcgrew said:


> The second part of your statement renders the first part meaningless.
> 
> You may never be enabled to see it. You may never be enabled to recognize your own contradictions.
> 
> You may be enabled to continually flop around.



I could ask you to attempt to defend your statements, but I get the distinct impression it would be a waste of your effort and my time, so i won't.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Banjo Picker is on a roll;

"God's power gives each one "all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue" (2 Pet. 1:3-10)."


----------



## egomaniac247

hummerpoo said:


> IF it is "the biggie", the first question is "who made it "the biggie"?  Scripture doesn't give it that status.
> 
> What about them?
> 
> 
> If the answers you seek are to be found, it will be in diligent, prayerful study, not by throwing up lists on an internet forum.





So in other words, rather than having an adult discussion with a fellow christian, you choose to not answer any of the questions, defer the person to google, and be snarky in your response.

I'm sure that's exactly what our God had in mind when a Christians asks another for clarity.


----------



## gemcgrew

egomaniac247 said:


> So in other words, rather than having an adult discussion with a fellow christian, you choose to not answer any of the questions, defer the person to google, and be snarky in your response.
> 
> I'm sure that's exactly what our God had in mind when a Christians asks another for clarity.


How can you be sure? Didn't you admit to being "legitimately confused"?


----------



## Israel

SFD, I think for whatever reason we often find ourselves (you and I) at an impasse. The fault may indeed be with me, God knows.

A man may operate in that place where he is "surprised" to discover another one is a believer...perhaps even as Jesus marvelled at the Centurion's faith...if one can receive that.

 But God, the Father? Is there anything unknown to Him, anyone unknown to Him? Jesus deferred to His knowing in all things, about all things, confident the Father, above all knew _His own_ among all, and it is of those Jesus speaks when He says "all that the Father gives me".

Even when speaking to Pilate Jesus asked "do you say this of yourself...or hear it from others?" Jesus well knew, no one could know who He was apart from the Father's work of enlightening by the Spirit. (As with Simon Peter)

That, in some sense is what I was getting at.
The Father always knows "His own". And He has given, without exception, each and every to Jesus..."I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand. My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand."


----------



## hummerpoo

egomaniac247 said:


> So in other words, rather than having an adult discussion with a fellow christian, you choose to not answer any of the questions, defer the person to google, and be snarky in your response.
> 
> I'm sure that's exactly what our God had in mind when a Christians asks another for clarity.



Sorry, I am inexperienced in having adult conversations with those who think that a to suggest "diligent, prayerful study" is to "defer the person to google".

If you have questions that reflect prior personal spiritual effort through prayer and study, those questions sometimes generate a serious discussion here, usually with elements that are difficult to view as serious.

If you are inexperienced in spiritual study of scripture (that means dedicating as much time as God requires), I would suggest that Matthew 5:17 through the end of the chapter as a good place that relates to your previous post.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

Israel said:


> SFD, I think for whatever reason we often find ourselves (you and I) at an impasse. The fault may indeed be with me, God knows.
> 
> A man may operate in that place where he is "surprised" to discover another one is a believer...perhaps even as Jesus marvelled at the Centurion's faith...if one can receive that.
> 
> But God, the Father? Is there anything unknown to Him, anyone unknown to Him? Jesus deferred to His knowing in all things, about all things, confident the Father, above all knew _His own_ among all, and it is of those Jesus speaks when He says "all that the Father gives me".
> 
> Even when speaking to Pilate Jesus asked "do you say this of yourself...or hear it from others?" Jesus well knew, no one could know who He was apart from the Father's work of enlightening by the Spirit. (As with Simon Peter)
> 
> That, in some sense is what I was getting at.
> The Father always knows "His own". And He has given, without exception, each and every to Jesus..."I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand. My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand."



An impass is mostly associated with a disagreement.  It's not that I agree or disagree with you.  It's that I can't comprehend your post, and I won't bother taking the time to attempt to decipher them just to accommodate your eccentricity.   

I tend to agree with C.S. Lewis when he said something to the effect of "If a man can't explain something clearly,  in simple terms, he doesn't understand what he's speaking of very well.  That is how I feel about your post.


----------



## Artfuldodger

SemperFiDawg said:


> An impass is mostly associated with a disagreement.  It's not that I agree or disagree with you.  It's that I can't comprehend your post, and I won't bother taking the time to attempt to decipher them just to accommodate your eccentricity.
> 
> I tend to agree with C.S. Lewis when he said something to the effect of "If a man can't explain something clearly,  in simple terms, he doesn't understand what he's speaking of very well.  That is how I feel about your post.



I think this is what Israel was saying;

When Jesus came to that place, He looked up and said, "Zacchaeus, hurry down, for I must stay at your house today."

I'll admit, I too have a hard time following him sometimes.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

hummerpoo said:


> Sorry, I am inexperienced in having adult conversations with those who think that a to suggest "diligent, prayerful study" is to "defer the person to google".



Ouch!


----------



## Israel

SemperFiDawg said:


> An impass is mostly associated with a disagreement.  It's not that I agree or disagree with you.  It's that I can't comprehend your post, and I won't bother taking the time to attempt to decipher them just to accommodate your eccentricity.
> 
> I tend to agree with C.S. Lewis when he said something to the effect of "If a man can't explain something clearly,  in simple terms, he doesn't understand what he's speaking of very well.  That is how I feel about your post.


----------



## gemcgrew

SemperFiDawg said:


> I could ask you to attempt to defend your statements, but I get the distinct impression it would be a waste of your effort and my time, so i won't.


"He is still sovern over creation start to finish, however each individual has free will to accept or reject him."
This is an unintelligible statement. Just because you can say something, does not make it logical, meaningful. 

Study it and figure it out. Look what you were able to accomplish in one complete sentence.

Absolutely nothing.


----------



## gemcgrew

Israel said:


>


----------



## SemperFiDawg

gemcgrew said:


> "He is still sovern over creation start to finish, however each individual has free will to accept or reject him."
> This is an unintelligible statement. Just because you can say something, does not make it logical, meaningful.
> 
> Study it and figure it out. Look what you were able to accomplish in one complete sentence.
> 
> Absolutely nothing.



Oh brother   Not only an automaton, but one that's stuck repeating himself.  

Well I guess you win.  Congrats.  You just disproved the theory that a being is capable of thought, will and action.  

Gonna leave a lot of theologians and philosophers  wondering just what Image of God we are made in, but that's beside the point.

Again.  Congrats.

P.S.  You may want to start studying up on the whole, "God the author of evil" argument the Athiest among others, are bound to bludgeon you with now that you've disproved free-will.  Oh!  Sorry.   Forgot.   You're an automaton (i.e. incapable of independent thought); they aren't.


----------



## hobbs27

SemperFiDawg said:


> Oh brother   Not only an automaton, but one that's stuck repeating himself.
> 
> Well I guess you win.  Congrats.  You just disproved the theory that a being is capable of thought, will and action.
> 
> Gonna leave a lot of theologians and philosophers  wondering just what Image of God we are made in, but that's beside the point.
> 
> Again.  Congrats.



Some good advice.. Maybe.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

Calvinist?   Don't know it.  None in my Bible, only Christians.


----------



## hobbs27

SemperFiDawg said:


> Calvinist?   Don't know it.  None in my Bible, only Christians.



There's none here either.


----------



## gemcgrew

SemperFiDawg said:


> Oh brother   Not only an automaton, but one that's stuck repeating himself.
> 
> Well I guess you win.  Congrats.  You just disproved the theory that a being is capable of thought, will and action.
> 
> Gonna leave a lot of theologians and philosophers  wondering just what Image of God we are made in, but that's beside the point.
> 
> Again.  Congrats.
> 
> P.S.  You may want to start studying up on the whole, "God the author of evil" argument the Athiest among others, are bound to bludgeon you with now that you've disproved free-will.  Oh!  Sorry.   Forgot.   You're an automaton (i.e. incapable of independent thought); they aren't.


"He is still sovern over creation start to finish, however each individual has free will to accept or reject him."

All that effort and this is still an unintelligible statement.

Perhaps somebody with more patience than me will point it out to you.

Nice attempt at deflection though.


----------



## gemcgrew

SemperFiDawg said:


> Calvinist?   Don't know it.  None in my Bible, only Christians.





hobbs27 said:


> There's none here either.


The majority of Calvinist that I converse with, are just as confused as you two... in regards to this matter.


----------



## hummerpoo

gemcgrew said:


> "He is still sovern over creation start to finish, however each individual has free will to accept or reject him."
> 
> All that effort and this is still an unintelligible statement.
> 
> Perhaps somebody with more patience than me will point it out to you.
> 
> Nice attempt at deflection though.



Not my strong suit today.


----------



## Artfuldodger

If we could bring back time to some point before a decision was made, could the person have decided differently? Considering God has already used his omniscience to see what that decision would be. 
If God looked ahead and knew that I would cut grass today, could I have decided to cut grass yesterday? 
Think of all of the future events that would have to change if we changed the events of today or yesterday. 

Perhaps Jesus would not have been the Word, if Adam had not sinned. Perhaps Jesus would not have died on the cross if the Jews has accepted him as their messiah. Maybe that would have meant Saul would not be needed as Paul, and then no gospel to the Gentiles.


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## hobbs27

gemcgrew said:


> The majority of Calvinist that I converse with, are just as confused as you two... in regards to this matter.



I'm not confused,  I'm just playing out events that were planned for me to way back when. I suggest you take it up with God if you don't like it,  because I have no control over it.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Some good advice.. Maybe.



That meme would also apply to a free will believer. Even a believer of Preterism.

What I'm getting at is we each like to present our beliefs as strongly as the next person. 

I'm reminded of "70AD"


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> I'm not confused,  I'm just playing out events that were planned for me to way back when. I suggest you take it up with God if you don't like it,  because I have no control over it.



Do you see God in control of the events from Adam to Christ's return in 70AD? Maybe just some of the events?
Do you think man came up with a plan to not kill Jesus so God had to counter their plan with his plan "B"?

"A remnant was elected and the rest were hardened."


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## hummerpoo

hobbs27 said:


> I'm not confused,  I'm just playing out events that were planned for me to way back when. I suggest you take it up with God if you don't like it,  because I have no control over it.



The "man after God's own heart" reacted actively as guided by the Spirit of God, and passively as guided by the Spirit of God

2Sa 12:22  He said, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept, for I said, 'Who knows whether the LORD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?'

 2Sa 16:11  ... Leave him alone, and let him curse, for the LORD has told him to. 
2Sa 16:12  It may be that the LORD will look on the wrong done to me, and that the LORD will repay me with good for his cursing today."


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Do you see God in control of the events from Adam to Christ's return in 70AD? Maybe just some of the events?
> Do you think man came up with a plan to not kill Jesus so God had to counter their plan with his plan "B"?
> 
> "A remnant was elected and the rest were hardened."



Hardened till the Gentiles received the HS,  then they were made jealous, as a way to bring them in.  It was their choice. Repent of their belief and accept Jesus as the Messiah, or remain friends with the old covenant Jew's to their demise .


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Hardened till the Gentiles received the HS,  then they were made jealous, as a way to bring them in.  It was their choice. Repent of their belief and accept Jesus as the Messiah, or remain friends with the old covenant Jew's to their demise .



Could it be that God was in control of all of the events leading up to 70AD? Everything from Adam to 70AD except salvation? He did the blinding and the light to make his plan come about. He was in total control of all of the events except salvation?
Everything. Total control of all the events. Except salvation.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Could it be that God was in control of all of the events leading up to 70AD? Everything from Adam to 70AD except salvation? He did the blinding and the light to make his plan come about. He was in total control of all of the events except salvation?
> Everything. Total control of all the events. Except salvation.



 The events were small compared to every action of every man around the world at that time. 
 In your opinion, was God watching an Eskimo kill a seal for his family in which he had ordained to happen at the very moment He watched the Gentiles receive the HS as He had ordained to happen already?  

 Was He so concerned about a people that did not know Him,  and would die without Him?


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> The events were small compared to every action of every man around the world at that time.
> In your opinion, was God watching an Eskimo kill a seal for his family in which he had ordained to happen at the very moment He watched the Gentiles receive the HS as He had ordained to happen already?
> 
> Was He so concerned about a people that did not know Him,  and would die without Him?



God needed to control the events of the Eskimo in order for him to survive in order to have the offspring of one of his elect.

If God knew that you were one of his children from the foundation of the earth, then he would have to make sure your parents and their parents survived long enough for you to be born.

Think about Abraham's lineage. Think about mother Mary's genealogy. It's not like she was chosen from the random stock of the Jewish towns people.
God had to ensure Mary would be born so that Jesus would be born.

I don't think any of the events in time were small. Saul had to become Paul.


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## SemperFiDawg

Artfuldodger said:


> Do you see God in control of the events from Adam to Christ's return in 70AD? Maybe just some of the events?
> Do you think man came up with a plan to not kill Jesus so God had to counter their plan with his plan "B"?
> 
> "A remnant was elected and the rest were hardened."




You had to o do it didn't you?  The 70ad death nail.  Just when it was getting fiesty too.  

Ok.  Someone call 911!  Against my better judgement I'm starting CPR on this thread even though it went off the tracks some miles back.

Would someone please enlighten me as to how exactly if we do NOT have free will then how is God not a Sadist as the Athiest claim. And if it's not too much to ask start with Adam and Eve's CHOICE and maybe tie it in to the PURPOSE  of the temptation of Christ in the wilderness and maybe cap it off with Satan wishing to sift Peter for biscuits and have the A/As downstairs for butter.


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## Artfuldodger

"As an online religious discussion grows longer, the probability of a 70AD will eventually appear."

We need a name for this law.


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## Israel

> "As an online religious discussion grows longer, the probability of a 70AD will eventually appear."
> 
> We need a name for this law.



There already is a name for it.

The law of diminishing returns.

Swords do not choose to become plowshares, they are beaten into them. A hope is revealed but men are loathe to lay down their arms. 

Being, and their "will to be" have become all amix and so it is by their own mind they carry this seeming hybrid thing, or at least try to, into a place that has no room for it. We dress ourselves poorly for heaven in thinking _we_ shall make it our own.

‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’ But the man was speechless.

The tried stone is not afraid. Not afraid of being offense. Not afraid of _losing disciples_..."will you leave also"? 
Not afraid of being misunderstood. As much as being sought is precious to Him, being listened to...heard..."Mary has chosen that good part..." He remains...relentless.

When they found Him on the other side of the sea, they asked Him, “Rabbi, when did You get here?” Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, it is not because you saw these signs that you are looking for Me, but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 

Jesus knows for "what advantage" we take him.

Do we think anything is hidden from the sight of Him with whom we have to do?

"To the Jews who _had_ believed Him..."

"To the Jews who _had_ believed Him..."

Something was said that so riled them...about "their" freedom.

While showing His...






To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.  Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”

 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.  Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever.  So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.  I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word.  I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.”

 “Abraham is our father,” they answered.

“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did.  As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. You are doing the works of your own father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.  You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.  Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!  Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me?  Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”


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