# No need to fear the hot place? Let me preach on it!



## oldfella1962 (Dec 13, 2022)

Here we go - put your thinking caps on, consider my argument, and add your thoughts!
1) Jesus was born a Jew and died as a Jew. Christianity was a new religion based on the life teachings, death, and resurrection
of Jesus decades after his death. 
2) The Jewish religion from which Jesus emerged has a much different take on heaven & hot place (and the afterlife) than does Christianity as we know it. In a nutshell, The Jewish idea is that the "soul" is part of the breath of life that exists in a LIVING body. When you die, your breath of life/soul dies too. There is no heaven or hot place. EVENTUALLY at the end of time as we know it, we will be judged. The obedient Jews (living or dead) will live forever here on a new Earth forever and the disobedient Jews/unbelievers (living or dead) will be DESTROYED - CEASE TO EXIST in the eternal fire that burns eternally but the bad people do not burn eternally. They burn up and are destroyed, but the fire keeps burning (to keep burning up more bad people maybe?) forever. 
3) *Since Jesus was a Jew, why would be not believe in the Jewish laws, traditions, procedures, and general worldview?* Indeed, Jesus even states in
Matthew 5:17, Jesus emphatically declares that he did not come to abolish the Torah or Prophets but to fulfill them. He begins with the command, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or Prophets”. Also he says
“For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished” (Matt. 5:18, ESV). Here, Jesus uses popular traditions within contemporary Jewish teaching of his time to underline his point about the Torah’s validity.[17] According to David Turner, “It would be hard to make a stronger statement of the ongoing authority of the Torah than that made in 5:18.”
I'm no religious expert, but Jesus seems to be saying that he is a Jew and is not trying to reinvent the wheel and go off the plantation. 
4) The concept of the soul going to heaven or the hot place (an eternal soul going to these locations when our physical bodies die) was mainly from the Greek influences influencing the Jews (and believers in the new Jesus cult/religion) who were writing what would be the new testament and the final versions of the old testament. 
5) the new testament as we know it wasn't finalized until about THREE OR FOUR CENTURIES (The Council of Nicea maybe?) after the death of Jesus!
Jesus had NO INPUT into the book pr any writings about him! Many books and writings were rejected in the final editing. Basically, whatever "didn't fit the narrative" of the head honchos. If the council wanted to put the fear of the hot place into the final new testament version to ensure compliance and obedience not just to god, but to "the church" wouldn't it make sense to steer the narrative in that direction? Stories (and whole religious canons) are made through purposeful editing and I think almost everybody would agree with that. DISCUSS!


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## brutally honest (Dec 14, 2022)

Regarding #1 and #3, I think you answer your own questions with this:

“Jesus emphatically declares that he did not come to abolish the Torah or Prophets but to fulfill them.”

The OT ends is a very anticlimactic way.  It ends in a very similar way to how the new Dune movie ended:  with a view to the future.  Jesus is that future.


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## brutally honest (Dec 14, 2022)

As for #2, I’m not certain about Jewish positions on the afterlife, but you may be correct.


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## brutally honest (Dec 14, 2022)

#4 - who are the “Greek influencers”?  The entire NT was written by Jews (although there are questions about Luke.)


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## brutally honest (Dec 14, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> 5) the new testament as we know it wasn't finalized until about THREE OR FOUR CENTURIES (The Council of Nicea maybe?) after the death of Jesus!
> Jesus had NO INPUT into the book pr any writings about him! Many books and writings were rejected in the final editing. Basically, whatever "didn't fit the narrative" of the head honchos.



The head honchos would have been in a position to know the narrative better than anyone else.  Who better to decide on the canon?

Also, when Jesus ascended into heaven, He left a church, not a book.  The church precedes the Bible.  The church wrote it and preserved it.


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## oldfella1962 (Dec 14, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> #4 - who are the “Greek influencers”?  The entire NT was written by Jews (although there are questions about Luke).



I think I said Greek influences, if not it was a typo. Regardless, yes there is Greek influence not just in the NT but in the OT too. Even if the Jews wrote all the NT their culture (thus the writers) was being influenced by Greek ideas. Few countries live in a vacuum, but the area of modern Israel was at a geographic& cultural crossroads back in the day. 





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					rsc.byu.edu
				












						How has Greek philosophy influenced Christianity? | GotQuestions.org
					

How has Greek philosophy influenced Christianity? Did Greek philosophy have a significant impact on early Christianity?



					www.gotquestions.org
				




Also the council of Nicaea was very "heavy handed" and with that in mind (banishing people for opposing viewpoints) and the fact that once a nation (any nation) claims Christianity as a mandatory state religion (thus political power and religion are linked) there is IMHO no doubt that the narrative would be steered - and opposing writings destroyed or banned - thus the original "message" of its founders would be distorted. 





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						Council of Nicaea concludes
					

The Council of Nicaea, the first ecumenical debate held by the early Christian church, concludes with the establishment of the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.




					www.history.com


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## Danuwoa (Dec 14, 2022)

One day you’ll know for sure.


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## brutally honest (Dec 14, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I think I said Greek influences, if not it was a typo. Regardless, yes there is Greek influence not just in the NT but in the OT too. Even if the Jews wrote all the NT their culture (thus the writers) was being influenced by Greek ideas. Few countries live in a vacuum, but the area of modern Israel was at a geographic& cultural crossroads back in the day.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The last paragraph of the BYU article:

“Greek philosophy has deeply, profoundly influenced the way Christianity discusses theology. It has not, however, been the origin of Christian belief nor a source of Christian religious ideas.”

I don’t have a problem with that statement.


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## brutally honest (Dec 14, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Also the council of Nicaea was very "heavy handed" and with that in mind (banishing people for opposing viewpoints) and the fact that once a nation (any nation) claims Christianity as a mandatory state religion (thus political power and religion are linked) there is IMHO no doubt that the narrative would be steered - and opposing writings destroyed or banned - thus the original "message" of its founders would be distorted.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think Nicea has an undeserved bad rap.  I agree that mixing politics and religion is bad, but Arius’ teaching had stirred up the whole empire.  It had to be addressed.


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## oldfella1962 (Dec 14, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> One day you’ll know for sure.


You're right (sort of). An actual real god - not a manmade god -_ could_ reveal itself to every human simultaneously and explain everything so far unexplained.  But the more likely scenario is that I eventually die, and my consciousness dies with me, full stop.  The upside to that is I won't be alive to go crazy pondering scientific mysteries.


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## Danuwoa (Dec 14, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> You're right (sort of). An actual real god - not a manmade god -_ could_ reveal itself to every human simultaneously and explain everything so far unexplained.  But the more likely scenario is that I eventually die, and my consciousness dies with me, full stop.  The upside to that is I won't be alive to go crazy pondering scientific mysteries.


That’s awesome.


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## oldfella1962 (Dec 14, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> I think Nicea has an undeserved bad rap.  I agree that mixing politics and religion is bad, but Arius’ teaching had stirred up the whole empire.  It had to be addressed.


Arius? I will research him, thanks! But good call on Nicaea, many scholars think it was not as influential on Christianity in general as it seems.


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## oldfella1962 (Dec 14, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> The last paragraph of the BYU article:
> 
> “Greek philosophy has deeply, profoundly influenced the way Christianity discusses theology. It has not, however, been the origin of Christian belief nor a source of Christian religious ideas.”
> 
> I don’t have a problem with that statement.


Fair enough, but many scholars disagree. That's the challenge of being a historical scholar - there's nothing to empirically test. Educated guesses and educated interpretations are usually all they have to go on.


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## Ruger#3 (Dec 14, 2022)

Olam Haba’ Hebrew for The world to Come, a key element of the Jewish faith. 

I'm not a studied expert. I did live with a Jewish family a few years as I shared a home working on the road.


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## bullethead (Dec 14, 2022)

Many religions believe that H3el-el is the soul spending eternity without the presence of God.


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## SemperFiDawg (Dec 14, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Here we go - put your thinking caps on, consider my argument, and add your thoughts!
> 1) Jesus was born a Jew and died as a Jew. Christianity was a new religion based on the life teachings, death, and resurrection
> of Jesus decades after his death.
> 2) The Jewish religion from which Jesus emerged has a much different take on heaven & hot place (and the afterlife) than does Christianity as we know it. In a nutshell, The Jewish idea is that the "soul" is part of the breath of life that exists in a LIVING body. When you die, your breath of life/soul dies too. There is no heaven or hot place. EVENTUALLY at the end of time as we know it, we will be judged. The obedient Jews (living or dead) will live forever here on a new Earth forever and the disobedient Jews/unbelievers (living or dead) will be DESTROYED - CEASE TO EXIST in the eternal fire that burns eternally but the bad people do not burn eternally. They burn up and are destroyed, but the fire keeps burning (to keep burning up more bad people maybe?) forever.
> ...



WOW.  That's a lot of material.  Was gonna suggest you break it up into several threads but it looks like the horses are already out of the barn.

After reading and re-reading your first 3 points I think maybe I can best address it like this.  Christ didn't create a "New" religion per se.  I think it is more accurate to state he fulfilled all the framework of an existing one (Judaism) and brought it to life.  In simple terms I conceptualize it as moving the viewer of a charcoal sketch of an underwater reef to literally being immersed and swimming above it.  From conceptualizing this:


To actually experiencing this:


The former(Judaism) is a conceptualization, the later(Christianity) is an experience.  It's not that the conceptualization is wrong, or in err in any way. It's completely accurate in everything it depicts.
But, actually experiencing it, one sees and understands it's depth and breadth with a 3 dimensional clarity that the 2 dimensional sketch simply could not convey.  This is the impact Christ had on Judaism. 

Honestly as to your 4th and 5th points, I don't care to address them.  Typical unsubstantiated and opinionated hacks.   Had I read this prior to addressing the first 3 points I would have seen this thread for what it is and saved myself some time.


> " *Basically, whatever "didn't fit the narrative" of the head honchos*. If the council wanted to put the fear of the hot place into the final new testament version to ensure compliance and obedience not just to god, but to "the church" wouldn't it make sense to steer the narrative in that direction? *Stories (and whole religious canons) are made through purposeful editing and I think almost everybody would agree with that. DISCUSS!"*


Bandwagon Fallacy.  Look it up.

As an aside, I'm a little disappointed.  I had actually garnered some hope that an intelligent discussion had begun only to realize  an ad hominem dressed in a straw man outfit.  Have fun in your echo chamber oldfella.


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## Spotlite (Dec 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Many religions believe that H3el-el is the soul spending eternity without the presence of God.


The Jews idea of heaven is the dwelling place with God so from a Christian persepective - I would not disagree with either group.


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## oldfella1962 (Dec 14, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> Olam Haba’ Hebrew for The world to Come, a key element of the Jewish faith.
> 
> I'm not a studied expert. I did live with a Jewish family a few years as I shared a home working on the road.


yep - "the world to come" which will be right here on earth (but a better version of it) where Jews can focus completely on Jewish religious related study & work and of course praising the god that lets you live there. Not exactly a paradise that's for sure, but the alternative is being destroyed/ceasing to exist, which is pretty fair & reasonable IMHO.


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## oldfella1962 (Dec 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Many religions believe that H3el-el is the soul spending eternity without the presence of God.


That's fair! If you didn't seek or believe in god in the real world while alive, why should you get to experience god in the afterlife?


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## oldfella1962 (Dec 14, 2022)

SemperFiDawg said:


> WOW.  That's a lot of material.  Was gonna suggest you break it up into several threads but it looks like the horses are already out of the barn.
> 
> After reading and re-reading your first 3 points I think maybe I can best address it like this.  Christ didn't create a "New" religion per se.  I think it is more accurate to state he fulfilled all the framework of an existing one (Judaism) and brought it to life.  In simple terms I conceptualize it as moving the viewer of a charcoal sketch of an underwater reef to literally being immersed and swimming above it.  From conceptualizing this:
> View attachment 1196242
> ...


I respect your opinion. Not every thread is everyone's cup-of-tea.


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## Ruger#3 (Dec 15, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> yep - "the world to come" which will be right here on earth (but a better version of it) where Jews can focus completely on Jewish religious related study & work and of course praising the god that lets you live there. Not exactly a paradise that's for sure, but the alternative is being destroyed/ceasing to exist, which is pretty fair & reasonable IMHO.


It’s the current home of God as they celebrate him. That ain’t here.


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## Spotlite (Dec 15, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> yep - "the world to come" which will be right here on earth (but a better version of it) where Jews can focus completely on Jewish religious related study & work and of course praising the god that lets you live there. Not exactly a paradise that's for sure, but the alternative is being destroyed/ceasing to exist, which is pretty fair & reasonable IMHO.


Sumtin tells me this a little deeper than than preaching there is no fear of the hot place........

Seems as if there is a little heart burn about the "fairness" or the deserving part..................just because you did not seek out God. There are many Christians that feel that it is a little extreme if that is all you are guilty of. In my small human mind I can not comprehend the justification of it and trust that being a "Just God" will not send anyone undeserving there. Now, what is deserving and undeserving? Not my cup of tea - all I know is what I believe it takes to get a ticket the opposite direction of the hot place.


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## oldfella1962 (Dec 15, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Sumtin tells me this a little deeper than than preaching there is no fear of the hot place........
> 
> Seems as if there is a little heart burn about the "fairness" or the deserving part..................just because you did not seek out God. There are many Christians that feel that it is a little extreme if that is all you are guilty of. In my small human mind I can not comprehend the justification of it and trust that being a "Just God" will not send anyone undeserving there. Now, what is deserving and undeserving? Not my cup of tea - all I know is what I believe it takes to get a ticket the opposite direction of the hot place.


No heartburn here, just fascination with the human belief in religion. That said, figured out that "fairness" - as any typical human would think of fairness - isn't in the Christian god's job description. And seeking out a god that would torture humans for eternity just because they didn't seek out a god that tortures humans doesn't add up to rational thinking. "Worship me or be tortured" sounds like something in a psychopath's manifesto. 

I guess the biggest unanswered question is this: shouldn't the god worshipped be of higher moral standards than the worshipers?


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## Ruger#3 (Dec 15, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> No heartburn here, just fascination with the human belief in religion. That said, figured out that "fairness" - as any typical human would think of fairness - isn't in the Christian god's job description. And seeking out a god that would torture humans for eternity just because they didn't seek out a god that tortures humans doesn't add up to rational thinking. "Worship me or be tortured" sounds like something in a psychopath's manifesto.
> 
> I guess the biggest unanswered question is this: shouldn't the god worshipped be of higher moral standards than the worshipers?



It’s kinda like your car it starts or it don’t. In between is pretty worthless.  You believe and are rewarded or dont and reap what you sow. One the worst sins is to mock God.

He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.


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## Spotlite (Dec 15, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> No heartburn here, just fascination with the human belief in religion. That said, figured out that "fairness" - as any typical human would think of fairness - isn't in the Christian god's job description. And seeking out a god that would torture humans for eternity just because they didn't seek out a god that tortures humans doesn't add up to rational thinking. "Worship me or be tortured" sounds like something in a psychopath's manifesto.
> 
> I guess the biggest unanswered question is this: shouldn't the god worshipped be of higher moral standards than the worshipers?


You know I’m a believer but I’ll be neutral for a minute, or try to be.

If there is a God, higher power, supreme being, etc,. that created everything I’d have to at a minimum believe that “it” is above anything we humans could measure as right, moral, standard, or ethical. I don’t think “it” is limited or bound to anything a human can comprehend as right or wrong.

That’d be like the baby correcting the Mama.


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## brutally honest (Dec 15, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> You know I’m a believer but I’ll be neutral for a minute, or try to be.
> 
> If there is a God, higher power, supreme being, etc,. that created everything I’d have to at a minimum believe that “it” is above anything we humans could measure as right, moral, standard, or ethical. I don’t think “it” is limited or bound to anything a human can comprehend as right or wrong.
> 
> That’d be like the baby correcting the Mama.



Beat me to it.  Good answer.


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## oldfella1962 (Dec 15, 2022)

so let me see if I'm tracking here: humans can't understand god, so god gets a pass on any horrific, vengeful, violent behavior that he tells humans not to do. MIGHT MAKES RIGHT so you better learn to love god, because he has the power to torture you if you don't.


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## Spotlite (Dec 15, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> so let me see if I'm tracking here: humans can't understand god, so god gets a pass on any horrific, vengeful, violent behavior that he tells humans not to do. MIGHT MAKES RIGHT so you better learn to love god, because he has the power to torture you if you don't.


Read it again. WHO is going to give God a pass?


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## NE GA Pappy (Dec 15, 2022)

God is the ultimate divider of truth and untruth.  He only sees righteousness or sin.  There is no in between.  No gray areas exist with Him.  You are either redeemed and holy, or a condemned sinner.

It is your choice. God is not forcing you to believe or accept Him.  He is only telling you your choices and allowing you to choose for yourself.   Just like some people who have to test every limit to see if what they have been told, there are a lot of folk that will spend eternity in the hot spot because they really don't believe that God will not tolerate any sin to pollute heaven.  

This is the reason that Satan was exiled from heaven when he convinced a 1/3 of the angels that he and they could be like God. Satan rebelled against God's laws, and was offered no chance at repentance.   We have an offer of the gift of everlasting life.  Your choice.

As Joshua said in Chapter 24, Choose you this day who you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve God.


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## bullethead (Dec 15, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> God is the ultimate divider of truth and untruth.  He only sees righteousness or sin.  There is no in between.  No gray areas exist with Him.  You are either redeemed and holy, or a condemned sinner.
> 
> It is your choice. God is not forcing you to believe or accept Him.  He is only telling you your choices and allowing you to choose for yourself.   Just like some people who have to test every limit to see if what they have been told, there are a lot of folk that will spend eternity in the hot spot because they really don't believe that God will not tolerate any sin to pollute heaven.
> 
> ...


The perception of the God of Abraham would make it seem that he would have known Lucifer's intentions before Lucifer was created and/or Lucifer was created for that very purpose. 
Otherwise it sounds like a lot of soap opera drama in Heaven.


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## oldfella1962 (Dec 15, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Read it again. WHO is going to give God a pass?


Everybody who excuses god's violence & cruelty as just god working in mysterious ways.


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## oldfella1962 (Dec 15, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> God is the ultimate divider of truth and untruth.  He only sees righteousness or sin.  There is no in between.  No gray areas exist with Him.  You are either redeemed and holy, or a condemned sinner.
> 
> It is your choice. God is not forcing you to believe or accept Him.  He is only telling you your choices and allowing you to choose for yourself.   Just like some people who have to test every limit to see if what they have been told, there are a lot of folk that will spend eternity in the hot spot because they really don't believe that God will not tolerate any sin to pollute heaven.
> 
> ...


God doesn't want sinners "crashing the party" so they don't get in? They don't get everlasting life? I have no problem with that - it seems perfectly fair & logical.* Eternal torture *because your only sin was not wanting to come to the party, or not even being aware of the party, or maybe there's another party (Hindu, Buddhist, Islam, Judaism, etc) you would rather attend? I can't condone eternal torture under any circumstances, let alone for just having a difference of opinion. Just my personal moral compass, I guess.


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## oldfella1962 (Dec 15, 2022)

"It is your choice. God is not forcing you to believe or accept Him. He is only telling you your choices and allowing you to choose for yourself. "

Pepsi or Coke is a choice. "Love me or I torture you" is an ultimatum. Using fear to win adoration says a lot about a deity is all I'm saying.


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## oldfella1962 (Dec 15, 2022)

bullethead said:


> The perception of the God of Abraham would make it seem that he would have known Lucifer's intentions before Lucifer was created and/or Lucifer was created for that very purpose.
> Otherwise it sounds like a lot of soap opera drama in Heaven.


God does seem to be caught by surprise a lot, especially in the Old Testament.


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## Spotlite (Dec 16, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Everybody who excuses god's violence & cruelty as just god working in mysterious ways.


Good point but are they really excusing Him for His benefit or theirs?


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## Ruger#3 (Dec 16, 2022)

One has to lay the giant ego down that assumes they can comprehend everything about a power that created the universe.  Humbling one’s self is part of the bargain. God is very loving. For all our shortfalls there’s a way to eternal life. If your arrogant enough to mock that God expect no mercy.


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## livinoutdoors (Dec 16, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> One has to lay the giant ego down that assumes they can comprehend everything about a power that created the universe.  Humbling one’s self is part of the bargain. God is very loving. For all our shortfalls there’s a way to eternal life. If your arrogant enough to mock that God expect no mercy.


And yet there are many arrogant men who believe themselves saved because they accept god as their lord, yet follow not a single word or intent of the teachings. What is in a man heart matters more than words i think.


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## Ruger#3 (Dec 16, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> And yet there are many arrogant men who believe themselves saved because they accept god as their lord, yet follow not a single word or intent of the teachings. What is in a man heart matters more than words i think.


Did such a man truly accept God?


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## livinoutdoors (Dec 16, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> Did such a man truly accept God?


Dunno? Letter of the laws says he did.


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## bullethead (Dec 16, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> One has to lay the giant ego down that assumes they can comprehend everything about a power that created the universe.  Humbling one’s self is part of the bargain. God is very loving. For all our shortfalls there’s a way to eternal life. If your arrogant enough to mock that God expect no mercy.


Is that ego anywhere near the size of someone who thinks that they not only know the unknowable but also assumes that they are in an exclusive club because they are somehow more liked and have been chosen by the unknowable ?


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## NE GA Pappy (Dec 16, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> And yet there are many arrogant men who believe themselves saved because they *say that they* accept god as their lord, yet follow not a single word or intent of the teachings. What is in a man heart matters more than words i think.


FIFY

how can anyone say that God is their Lord, and not follow His teachings to the best of their ability?

Jesus said that no one can serve 2 masters.  Truer words were never spoken


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## Ruger#3 (Dec 16, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Is that ego anywhere near the size of someone who thinks that they not only know the unknowable but also assumes that they are in an exclusive club because they are somehow more liked and have been chosen by the unknowable ?


Couldn’t be more wrong. Nothing like a “club” very personal and humility and faith is a large part of it.


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## bullethead (Dec 16, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> Couldn’t be more wrong. Nothing like a “club” very personal and humility and faith is a large part of it.


I respect you if you are answering from a personal level but if you can look around your church pews, step back and listen to what other believers say and do outside of those pews and honestly tell me that everyone who thinks they are chosen follow the same path then you will know why I am not wrong.

Faith certainly plays the largest part but you cannot honestly tell me that the people who do not act Christian all week except an hour on Sunday also do not have the same Faith that they believe just as hard and will be rewarded just as much as someone who tows the line a little more tightly.
Those people will tell you and I that they are just as chosen, just as qualified, just as deserving and know God just as well. Everyone thinks that their sandals don't stink as much as yours do.
The only way I could be more wrong is if these pews are filled with Mother Theresa clones and not people who THINK they are Mother Theresa clones which is what they've convinced themselves of.


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## bullethead (Dec 16, 2022)

Here is the bottom line. We as individuals give ourselves a little more credit and a lot more bias then we deserve.
If getting into Heaven has a cut-off line that is anything above "accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior" then Heaven is sparsely populated.
If Heaven is full of people who do as they want whenever they want and to or with with whoever they want but qualified because they believe then I don't want to be anywhere near those people for eternity and is the reason why I interact as little as possible with them now.
If a God is truly capable of knowing what is in a man's heart and judges a person by their actions but will exclude a better person because that person isn't carrying some sort of loyalty rewards program card that says I  Jesus then again it is a club I don't want to belong to. 

I am not conceited enough to think that I am a 1st Round pick on draft day but I am biased enough to know that I am better than all the wanna be walk-ons.


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## brutally honest (Dec 16, 2022)

bullethead said:


> … because that person isn't carrying some sort of loyalty rewards program card that says I  Jesus …


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## bullethead (Dec 16, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> View attachment 1196441


Even Lucifer was made in God's image


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## NE GA Pappy (Dec 16, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I am not conceited enough to think that I am a 1st Round pick on draft day but I am biased enough to know that I am better than all the wanna be walk-ons.



The problem with that line of thinking is the belief that you can do something, anything to deserve getting into heaven.  You can't.

It really doesn't matter how hard you try to be good, how well meaning you are, or if you were better than the guy who sat on the back pew and cheated on his wife 10 times a month.  None of that is what saves you.  You have to have that personal relationship with Christ.  Period.  It is the only way to make it into heaven


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## bullethead (Dec 16, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> The problem with that line of thinking is the belief that you can do something, anything to deserve getting into heaven.  You can't.
> 
> It really doesn't matter how hard you try to be good, how well meaning you are, or if you were better than the guy who sat on the back pew and cheated on his wife 10 times a month.  None of that is what saves you.  You have to have that personal relationship with Christ.  Period.  It is the only way to make it into heaven


According to whoever wrote the writings that Christianity considers the New Testament,  yes you are correct that is the citeria.

Where you might not be clear is that I am not trying to get into whatever Christians call Heaven. I don't want any parts of it.

What I am saying is that IF such a thing as an all knowing God exists and can discern what a person does, has done and what is in a person's heart and judges them on it then I will be alright if some sort of afterlife also exists and I am judged by my deeds here and now.
If such a God exists I don't know it.
I don't know anything about it.
It has not revealed itself to me in any way, shape or form.
I do not believe that any religion practiced by man is any more accurate or truthful than the next. 
When I speak of "God" I don't specifically mean the God of Abraham or Jesus. 
Too many people assume that I live my life the way I do because I am trying to impress my way into a place that I don't think exists (their version of a Heaven) run by their version of a God that I don't believe in and that I am somehow trying to circumvent rules written thousands of years ago by a culture that borrowed stories from other cultures and religions.
I live as I do because that is the way that I feel is best for me here and now. There are too many bases to cover if I have to consider all of the man made, man written religions. I don't know of any God that has given or shown mankind it's own work.
I am not worried about what I will be doing even one second after I am dead, there is too much to concern myself with while alive.
But I am fascinated by all those who seem to think that they have everything figured out about their next life and cannot provide a shred of evidence that any part of their beliefs exist in this life.


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## livinoutdoors (Dec 16, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> FIFY
> 
> how can anyone say that God is their Lord, and not follow His teachings to the best of their ability?
> 
> Jesus said that no one can serve 2 masters.  Truer words were never spoken


A bunch of folks do just that


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## livinoutdoors (Dec 16, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> The problem with that line of thinking is the belief that you can do something, anything to deserve getting into heaven.  You can't.
> 
> It really doesn't matter how hard you try to be good, how well meaning you are, or if you were better than the guy who sat on the back pew and cheated on his wife 10 times a month.  None of that is what saves you.  You have to have that personal relationship with Christ.  Period.  It is the only way to make it into heaven


Thats what i was tryin to get at in my first post. You can do whatever as long as you accept christ, but the guy who says i dunno what happens after death and does countless good deeds in life is out? I cant for one second believe thats how it all works.


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## NE GA Pappy (Dec 16, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> Thats what i was tryin to get at in my first post. You can do whatever as long as you accept christ, but the guy who says i dunno what happens after death and does countless good deeds in life is out? I cant for one second believe thats how it all works.



If Jesus is your Lord and Christ, then your actions will change.  I am not perfect by any means, but I am not who I was. The reason you can't believe that all those good deeds don't amount to a hill of beans is because you believe you can somehow, someway earn your way into heaven.

You can't.  Salvation is not by works, so that no man can boast.  It is thru faith, and that faith is not even something we did right. It is a gift from God. ( Pappy version)


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## bullethead (Dec 16, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> If Jesus is your Lord and Christ, then your actions will change.  I am not perfect by any means, but I am not who I was. The reason you can't believe that all those good deeds don't amount to a hill of beans is because you believe you can somehow, someway earn your way into heaven.
> 
> You can't.  Salvation is not by works, so that no man can boast.  It is thru faith, and that faith is not even something we did right. It is a gift from God. ( Pappy version)


Statements like "if Jesus is your Lord and Christ your actions will change" is just not even remotely accurate unless you include negative actions also. Christians have absolutely no advantage in the most well behaved category. In fact Christians have no advantage in any category. Clergy, who should be as close to representatives of Jesus as possible, have been shown to not exactly be the examples of good actions.
The God of Abraham and especially Jesus are late comers to revealing themselves to man. Maybe they have their own Heaven but not the only Heaven as there seems to be a lot of Heavens mentioned in many religions......if the writings of man actually mean anything.


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## livinoutdoors (Dec 16, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> If Jesus is your Lord and Christ, then your actions will change.  I am not perfect by any means, but I am not who I was. The reason you can't believe that all those good deeds don't amount to a hill of beans is because you believe you can somehow, someway earn your way into heaven.
> 
> You can't.  Salvation is not by works, so that no man can boast.  It is thru faith, and that faith is not even something we did right. It is a gift from God. ( Pappy version)


But see? The non believer in my example isnt tryin to earn his way into heaven, he is just doing his best to live a good life. Imho the other feller is the one trying to do that.


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## NCHillbilly (Dec 16, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> Thats what i was tryin to get at in my first post. You can do whatever as long as you accept christ, but the guy who says i dunno what happens after death and does countless good deeds in life is out? I cant for one second believe thats how it all works.


Preach it, brother. The roast in He11 forever default position no matter what, while the worst hypocrites and sinners who do horrible things I would never think of doing get a free ride to heaven because they went to church and accepted Jesus was one major thing that ran me away from the loving church.


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## Ruger#3 (Dec 16, 2022)

“Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.”

I’m not trying to change anyone. If we’re around each other you’ll only hear this topic if you ask about it. Likewise, I’ll defend my faith when ridiculed.

If your doing horrible things your likely a sham. God knows one’s heart. Just saying the words won’t cut it.


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## bullethead (Dec 16, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> “Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.”
> 
> I’m not trying to change anyone. If we’re around each other you’ll only hear this topic if you ask about it. Likewise, I’ll defend my faith when ridiculed.
> 
> If your doing horrible things your likely a sham. God knows one’s heart. Just saying the words won’t cut it.


What is the "horrible things" line in the sand?
Does a person get credit for trying?
What can and cannot be forgiven?
I mean honestly enough vague suggestions what are the rules?


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## brutally honest (Dec 16, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> A bunch of folks do just that



A bunch of folks are deceived.  

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." - Matt. 7:21


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## bullethead (Dec 16, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> A bunch of folks are deceived.
> 
> "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." - Matt. 7:21


Do you doeth the will of his Father?
If so, what do you do?
What IS the will of his Father?


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## livinoutdoors (Dec 16, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> A bunch of folks are deceived.
> 
> "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." - Matt. 7:21


I get that but we were just debating the idea of a non christian gettin shut out even while doing the will as it were. Like i said before, whats in your heart matters most.


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## NE GA Pappy (Dec 16, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Preach it, brother. The roast in He11 forever default position no matter what, while the worst hypocrites and sinners who do horrible things I would never think of doing get a free ride to heaven because they went to church and accepted Jesus was one major thing that ran me away from the loving church.



how do you know that they accepted Christ?  Did they say so?  If they are a hypocrite, isn't it possible that they are a liar as well?  Saying they are one thing, when in truth they are the opposite? 

It pains me to hear people say they left the church because of the way people treated them or acted.


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## brutally honest (Dec 16, 2022)

bullethead said:


> What IS the will of his Father?



"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." - John 6:40


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## brutally honest (Dec 16, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Do you doeth the will of his Father?
> If so, what do you do?



I live by faith,  What does that entail?  Church attendance, Bible reading, confession of sins, prayer, taking the Lord's supper -- not to be saved but to grow as a Christian.


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## bullethead (Dec 16, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." - John 6:40


"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." - Matt. 7:21

And yet others are saying that a person saying that they believe is not enough

John needs to talk to Matt


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## brutally honest (Dec 16, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> I get that but we were just debating the idea of a non christian gettin shut out even while doing the will as it were. Like i said before, whats in your heart matters most.



No one is shut out for doing God's will.  They will be shut out for NOT doing God's will.  Even if they've never heard of the Christian God, they have moral principles and will have violated them at various points in their life.

"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."


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## bullethead (Dec 16, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> I live by faith,  What does that entail?  Church attendance, Bible reading, confession of sins, prayer, taking the Lord's supper -- not to be saved but to grow as a Christian.


Murderers and Clergy child molesters have and live by faith  also. Every person that identifies as Christian would tell me and every other Christian that they have faith. 
It seems that belonging to a religion is like all the other things people "identify" as but really aren't.


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## livinoutdoors (Dec 16, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> No one is shut out for doing God's will.  They will be shut out for NOT doing God's will.  Even if they've never heard of the Christian God, they have moral principles and will have violated them at various points in their life.
> 
> "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."


I aint against ya. I wish you success on your journey!


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## brutally honest (Dec 16, 2022)

bullethead said:


> "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." - Matt. 7:21
> 
> And yet others are saying that a person saying that they believe is not enough
> 
> John needs to talk to Matt



Belief is not just mental ascent.  "The demons believe and tremble."

If you _believe_ in the Bill of Rights, you will _act_ accordingly.  You will exercise those rights and not prevent others from doing the same.


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## bullethead (Dec 16, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> No one is shut out for doing God's will.  They will be shut out for NOT doing God's will.  Even if they've never heard of the Christian God, they have moral principles and will have violated them at various points in their life.
> 
> "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."


So the difference is Sin and Fall Short but believers will be forgiven...and only true beleivers will be forgiven because God knows what's in you heart even better than you think you know yourself. 
It sounds like Heaven is sparsly populated.


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## brutally honest (Dec 16, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Murderers and Clergy child molesters have and live by faith  also.



Do you really believe that murderers and clergy child molesters are "living by faith"?  Do you really believe _they_ think they are "living by faith"?


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## brutally honest (Dec 16, 2022)

bullethead said:


> So the difference is Sin and Fall Short but believers will be forgiven...and only true beleivers will be forgiven because God knows what's in you heart even better than you think you know yourself.
> It sounds like Heaven is sparsly populated.



Probably much "sparser" than many would like to believe.


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## bullethead (Dec 16, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Do you really believe that murderers and clergy child molesters are "living by faith"?  Do you really believe _they_ think they are "living by faith"?


I am certain that they believe that they are living by faith as much as others are.


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## NE GA Pappy (Dec 16, 2022)

I have a feeling that a lot of folks we think are gonna be in heaven won't be there, and a lot we think that have an express ticket on the train to high temps may just fool us.   It is not my place to judge anyone.

If I had know the thief on the cross 2 days before he met Jesus, I would have thought for rootin' tootin' sure he would bust hades wide open, yet Jesus said he was going to paradise that day.

Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.


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## bullethead (Dec 16, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Probably much "sparser" than many would like to believe.


And the majority of those will all tell everyone else that they will qualify to get in.


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## livinoutdoors (Dec 16, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I have a feeling that a lot of folks we think are gonna be in heaven won't be there, and a lot we think that have an express ticket on the train to high temps may just fool us.   It is not my place to judge anyone.
> 
> If I had know the thief on the cross 2 days before he met Jesus, I would have thought for rootin' tootin' sure he would bust hades wide open, yet Jesus said he was going to paradise that day.
> 
> Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.


That was well said.


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## oldfella1962 (Dec 16, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Good point but are they really excusing Him for His benefit or theirs?


It depends on the person. But I would say some people excuse god for god's benefit. They know they are "sinners" so it's expected that they will act terribly at times, but since they are "forgiven" they go to heaven.


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## oldfella1962 (Dec 16, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> One has to lay the giant ego down that assumes they can comprehend everything about a power that created the universe.  Humbling one’s self is part of the bargain. God is very loving. For all our shortfalls there’s a way to eternal life. If your arrogant enough to mock that God expect no mercy.


I for one don't assume I know everything about the universe - or what powers exist in the universe - but that has nothing to do with ego. Nobody knows everything about the universe but learning more & more about it through the scientific process is IMHO a very worthy goal. I do not believe that any religion (that I know of) has any insight into any factual knowledge about anything scientific that wasn't known to the humans that started the religion. Believers of various religions might try to interpret religious writings to sound scientifically sound, but it's just wishful thinking. Science and religion are apples & oranges. Religion has its place in every society so there is a psychological need for it (for many people, but not all) but the fact that there are so many different religions with opposing worldviews indicates that they can't all be true at the same time - there is only one true "reality" and it is fact based, not belief based. Just my worldview, one of millions of other worldviews. We could all be totally wrong, but no religion so far has all the answers or even a mechanism for finding the real answers.


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## oldfella1962 (Dec 16, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Here is the bottom line. We as individuals give ourselves a little more credit and a lot more bias then we deserve.
> If getting into Heaven has a cut-off line that is anything above "accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior" then Heaven is sparsely populated.
> If Heaven is full of people who do as they want whenever they want and to or with with whoever they want but qualified because they believe then I don't want to be anywhere near those people for eternity and is the reason why I interact as little as possible with them now.
> If a God is truly capable of knowing what is in a man's heart and judges a person by their actions but will exclude a better person because that person isn't carrying some sort of loyalty rewards program card that says I  Jesus then again it is a club I don't want to belong to.
> ...


I have posited before (but it bears repeating) that getting into heaven should require a polygraph test!  Jesus himself hooks you up and asks "do you really love/serve me or are you afraid of what happens to you if you *don't *love/serve me?" 

Logically the supernatural in general doesn't make sense to my primitive brain, but if it did I_ might _be tempted to be "a believer" if eternal torture for non-believers was off the table. But the moral issue of coercion & intimidation doesn't sit well with me. Everybody (actually every living thing that ever existed) getting one life to live then going six feet under sounds fair to me.


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## oldfella1962 (Dec 16, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Do you doeth the will of his Father?
> If so, what do you do?
> What IS the will of his Father?


whatever you interpret as "the will of the father" mostly from the bible but the bible can be interpreted six ways from Sunday and is a moving target at best.


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## Spotlite (Dec 16, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I respect you if you are answering from a personal level but if you can look around your church pews, step back and listen to what other believers say and do outside of those pews and honestly tell me that everyone who thinks they are chosen follow the same path then you will know why I am not wrong.
> 
> Faith certainly plays the largest part but you cannot honestly tell me that the people who do not act Christian all week except an hour on Sunday also do not have the same Faith that they believe just as hard and will be rewarded just as much as someone who tows the line a little more tightly.
> Those people will tell you and I that they are just as chosen, just as qualified, just as deserving and know God just as well. Everyone thinks that their sandals don't stink as much as yours do.
> The only way I could be more wrong is if these pews are filled with Mother Theresa clones and not people who THINK they are Mother Theresa clones which is what they've convinced themselves of.


There are some that think their boo boo don’t stink. But, they don’t represent us all.


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## bullethead (Dec 16, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> There are some that think their boo boo don’t stink. But, they don’t represent us all.


I absolutely know that. From my experiences the genuine people are far and few between and most people who claim to be part of a religion are the worst offenders of things that they claim to be opposed to.
I understand it is human nature. But those types are what made me leave organized religion.


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## Spotlite (Dec 17, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I absolutely know that. From my experiences the genuine people are far and few between and most people who claim to be part of a religion are the worst offenders of things that they claim to be opposed to.
> I understand it is human nature. But those types are what made me leave organized religion.


Agreed.


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## livinoutdoors (Dec 17, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I for one don't assume I know everything about the universe - or what powers exist in the universe - but that has nothing to do with ego. Nobody knows everything about the universe but learning more & more about it through the scientific process is IMHO a very worthy goal. I do not believe that any religion (that I know of) has any insight into any factual knowledge about anything scientific that wasn't known to the humans that started the religion. Believers of various religions might try to interpret religious writings to sound scientifically sound, but it's just wishful thinking. Science and religion are apples & oranges. Religion has its place in every society so there is a psychological need for it (for many people, but not all) but the fact that there are so many different religions with opposing worldviews indicates that they can't all be true at the same time - there is only one true "reality" and it is fact based, not belief based. Just my worldview, one of millions of other worldviews. We could all be totally wrong, but no religion so far has all the answers or even a mechanism for finding the real answers.


Yes, there really is only one true reality and if you are quiet long enough you may hear it speak its truth. The problem is, many start speaking when they should still be listening, and they get it wrong.


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## brutally honest (Dec 17, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Also the council of Nicaea was very "heavy handed" and with that in mind (banishing people for opposing viewpoints) and the fact that once a nation (any nation) claims Christianity as a mandatory state religion (thus political power and religion are linked) there is IMHO no doubt that the narrative would be steered - and opposing writings destroyed or banned - thus the original "message" of its founders would be distorted.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## NCHillbilly (Dec 17, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> how do you know that they accepted Christ?  Did they say so?  If they are a hypocrite, isn't it possible that they are a liar as well?  Saying they are one thing, when in truth they are the opposite?
> 
> It pains me to hear people say they left the church because of the way people treated them or acted.


Well, if they are long-time preachers leading large congregations of Christians, I would certainly hope and assume that they did. After about the tenth local preacher I saw getting caught diddling the married congregation women, getting caught picking up hookers or being peeping Toms, molesting teenage girls, and suchlike stuff, I figured that if these are the people telling me how to live, I reckon I can do just as good on my own. Sorry, that is not intended to offend anyone, but it is a constant and reliable pattern I've seen my whole life long. It also isn't a condemnation of all preachers, just a sizeable percentage of them.


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## bullethead (Dec 17, 2022)

Religion convincing people that they have to accept someone as their personal savior so that when a person dies THEN they will have it better is the equivalent of the Democrats convincing people that they should vote for Dems because the Dems care about the poor people and the people will have it better once the Dems are in control.
Those better days never arrive for either but i doesn't stop people from chasing the dangling carrot.


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## brutally honest (Dec 17, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Religion convincing people that they have to accept someone as their personal savior so that when a person dies THEN they will have it better is the equivalent of the Democrats convincing people that they should vote for Dems because the Dems care about the poor people and the people will have it better once the Dems are in control.
> Those better days never arrive for either but i doesn't stop people from chasing the dangling carrot.



I resent any comparison of Christianity to the Democrats.


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## NE GA Pappy (Dec 17, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Well, if they are long-time preachers leading large congregations of Christians, I would certainly hope and assume that they did. After about the tenth local preacher I saw getting caught diddling the married congregation women, getting caught picking up hookers or being peeping Toms, molesting teenage girls, and suchlike stuff, I figured that if these are the people telling me how to live, I reckon I can do just as good on my own. Sorry, that is not intended to offend anyone, but it is a constant and reliable pattern I've seen my whole life long. It also isn't a condemnation of all preachers, just a sizeable percentage of them.


alcoholics can hide their issues from some people for long periods.  So can child molesters.  Adulterous relationships tend to stay hidden until one of the participants decides they aren't being treated as they deserve. That can go on for years sometimes.

Maybe those people started out with the best intentions, but somewhere along the line, either their true self showed up, or they made some terrible, terrible mistakes that lead to the issues you saw in their lives.

Just like when you are sorting out your next meal, you throw the bad taters in a bucket to feed the chickens, but cut the good ones up for dinner, we have to sort thru the people we let speak into our lives.  I wouldn't take Trumps advise on how to maintain a marriage because he is on his 3rd marriage.  Neither would I take the advise of Sam Bankman-Fried about how to handle money.


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