# Is anyone besides God in Heaven?



## rjcruiser (Aug 9, 2012)

Huntinfool said:
			
		

> How's this for ya....I don't believe that ANYBODY (i.e. people who have died) is in Heaven right now....nor He||.
> 
> The lone exception is Jesus, who was bodily resurrected and ascended bodily to take a place at the right hand of the Father.
> 
> Been wanting to start a thread in that regard for discussion. Just haven't gotten around to it. I think it fits here though.


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## JB0704 (Aug 9, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


>



x2.....


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## Huntinfool (Aug 9, 2012)

X's 3


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## Huntinfool (Aug 9, 2012)

Oh wait....my bad.  That was a quote of me wasn't it!


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## JB0704 (Aug 9, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> X's 3



Come on now.....it's your can of worms.......


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## Huntinfool (Aug 9, 2012)

Short answer (and to add more confusion), my answer is yes...there are others in Heaven besides the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. 

I'm not talking angels.  There are some who were humanly born.  But there are none who have died.

Sufficiently further confused?


(p.s.  There are no homosexual chickens there.  That, I'm 100% sure of.)


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## JB0704 (Aug 9, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> Short answer (and to add more confusion), my answer is yes...there are others in Heaven besides the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
> 
> I'm not talking angels.  There are some who were humanly born.  But there are none who have died.
> 
> ...



Elijah and enoch.

Now, to the rest of it?????


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## Huntinfool (Aug 9, 2012)

Shorter answer...

I believer that all those who have died are in Hades or Sheol....the Bossom of Abraham or Paradise.  The place where both the righteous and unrighteous dead reside.

Starting to get a little clearer?  Or were you asking specifically about those homosexual chickens?  I don't know where they are exactly.  I assume in some very poorly and tastelessly decorated chicken he||.


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## JB0704 (Aug 9, 2012)

Just hoping for a straight answer, really.  Was honestly curious.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 9, 2012)

I can see trying to make a case for those in the OT, but those in the NT...I don't see how you can try and stretch the scriptures to show that.

Another example, the thief on the cross.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 9, 2012)

This is NT....correct?



> Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
> (Revelation 20:11-15 ESV)



As to the thief on the cross.  What did Jesus say to him?  "Today you will be with me in...."

Where did Jesus go that day?  To Heaven?  Nope...he ascended to Heaven three days later.  So where did the thief go "with him" that particular day?

To "Paradise".  Jesus descended to the 'dead' that day.  He did not go to Heaven...correct?


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## JB0704 (Aug 9, 2012)

So, there are 3+ alternate residences for the departed?


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## Huntinfool (Aug 9, 2012)

Hades/Sheol are one place as far as I know.  Just two different 'names' for the same place.

It is the place where the dead go.  There is a place for the righteous dead and a place for the unrighteous dead.

In the OT, the called the place for the righteous the "bossom of Abraham".  I believe that Jesus referred to it as "paradise".


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## Huntinfool (Aug 9, 2012)

JB,

I would think that you and I might not agree on this based on past conversations about how many sections of scripture are more figurative than literal.

A lot of the basis for this belief comes out of Revelation (though there is scripture throughout both OT and NT that seem to back it up).  So, if you believe that Rev is simply a dream and not a vision of the future then it might not fit with your thought process.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 9, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> This is NT....correct?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Where do you get that Jesus descended to the 'dead' that day?

Just curious...as I believe Paradise was another word for Heaven.


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## JB0704 (Aug 9, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> Hades/Sheol are one place as far as I know.  Just two different 'names' for the same place.
> 
> It is the place where the dead go.  There is a place for the righteous dead and a place for the unrighteous dead.
> 
> In the OT, the called the place for the righteous the "bossom of Abraham".  I believe that Jesus referred to it as "paradise".



Trying to follow......

So, there is hades, heaven, and he11.

Hades is for everybody until judgement.
Heaven is for those in the book of life.
he11 is for everybody else.

Where you are losing me is where you say the righteous go to the bosom of Abraham, paradise.....is that also hades?


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## JB0704 (Aug 9, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> JB,
> 
> I would think that you and I might not agree on this based on past conversations about how many sections of scripture are more figurative than literal.
> 
> A lot of the basis for this belief comes out of Revelation (though there is scripture throughout both OT and NT that seem to back it up).  So, if you believe that Rev is simply a dream and not a vision of the future then it might not fit with your thought process.



I'm not here to agree or disagree with you HF.  I am trying to hear your thoughts.

I don't know what I think about REvelation, and I have said that many times.  The parts I am relatively certain are figurative are typically in the OT.  I generally do not view the NT as figurative.  REvelation is the one book that I have pause about.


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## JB0704 (Aug 9, 2012)

HF,

I have no set belief on this subject.  Just to clarify my curiosity.  That being the case, I cannot agree or disagree with you.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 9, 2012)

Well....let's ask this.  When did he go to Heaven?


Where was he (his spirit) during those three days?


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## JB0704 (Aug 9, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> Where was he (his spirit) during those three days?



I have always been taught that he was preaching in paradise.

Which, if true, pretty much opens heaven up to everybody who died before the NT.....if Jesus delivers the gospel, one might think thos ewho heard it would accept it given they would be convinced of the after life at that point.

Very confusing stuff.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 9, 2012)

> Where you are losing me is where you say the righteous go to the bosom of Abraham, paradise.....is that also hades?



Correct.  The "bosom of Abraham" or "paradise" is the 'area' (for lack of a better term) where the righteous dead reside in Hades/Sheol.

A further thought is the question of where all those who died before Christ went.  The OT and NT are not seperate...they are tied together.  Do we believe that all gentiles went straight to He|| at death and only perfectly righteous Jews went to Heaven?  Or is it possible that all who have died went somewhere to await bodily resurrection and judgement?

I wasn't accusing you of disagreeing or anything.  Just saying that we probably will approach this from two different viewpoints.


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## JB0704 (Aug 9, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> Correct.  The "bosom of Abraham" or "paradise" is the 'area' (for lack of a better term) where the righteous dead reside in Hades/Sheol.



So, Hades is segreagated (for lack of a better term)?



Huntinfool said:


> A further thought is the question of where all those who died before Christ went.  The OT and NT are not seperate...they are tied together.



But, seperate covenants, correct?  One treatment pre-crucifiction, one post????



Huntinfool said:


> Do we believe that all gentiles went straight to He|| at death and only perfectly righteous Jews went to Heaven?  Or is it possible that all who have died went somewhere to await bodily resurrection and judgement?



Would love to hear some thoughts on that.....my question is what would they be judged against?  The law?  That leaves the gentiles completely out of the equation.

I believe some of the Calvinists/predes folks on here might agree with such conclusions.



Huntinfool said:


> I wasn't accusing you of disagreeing or anything.  Just saying that we probably will approach this from two different viewpoints.



But there's always room for learning....


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## hobbs27 (Aug 9, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> Short answer (and to add more confusion), my answer is yes...there are others in Heaven besides the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
> 
> I'm not talking angels.  There are some who were humanly born.  But there are none who have died.
> 
> ...



Guess you are speaking of Enoch and Elijah...and/or those resurrected after Christs resurrection.
I see no reason others haven't made the crossing, will be interested to see where this goes by the time I get home tonight.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 9, 2012)

I will admit that this is a relatively new 'revelation' for me so I won't pretend that I have a perfect defense ready from every angle.  I'm more curious as to whether anyone else believes this.  It's not an outrageous belief.  If fact, it's pretty mainstream denominational...just not sure how many people know that.

I recently sat under 10 days of teaching that included this subject.  Prior to that, I'll be honest, I had not really given it much thought.  I just went along with the idea of "well, when you die, your spirit goes to wherever it deserves to go" idea that probably most Christians have.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 9, 2012)

> So, Hades is segregated (for lack of a better term)?



Yes.


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## JB0704 (Aug 9, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> Yes.



Is there a direct reference of this Biblically?  Or is the assumption because the same place is referred to in different ways.......


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## Huntinfool (Aug 9, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Is there a direct reference of this Biblically?  Or is the assumption because the same place is referred to in different ways.......



Luke 16 is one of the primary references.  Though, admittedly, it is read and interpreted in a couple of different ways.



> “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house—for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”
> 
> (Luke 16:19-31 ESV)



Very clearly you can read this as "Heaven and He||".

Also, it can be read as Hades/Sheol in which there is a great chasm that seperates the righteous dead from the unrighteous.

Both the righteous and unrighteous are clearly aware of the other in the parable and they are clearly seperated.  A lot of people will argue that part of the torment of "He||" is being aware of the bliss of Heaven.  I don't think there is anything in this passage that would dismiss that idea out of hand.

In my mind, it comes down to how you read this passage in the context of what I posted from Revelation.  If you believe, as I do, that Revelation is a foretelling of what is to come and that there will, indeed, be a bodily resurrection for ALL (whether righteous or unrighteous). And, if you believe that the purpose of the resurrection is the final and ultimate defeat of death (afterall, if only the righteous are risen then death is not dead...is it?).  And, if you believe that we will all be judged at the White Throne of judgement, then there must be a place where we await judgement....right?

If all that follows, then Luke 16 should be read in that context and should be interpreted to indicate that there is a place called Hades where there is a chasm between the righteous and unrighteous dead and that the righteous go to "Abraham's side (or bosom or paradise)" and the unrighteous are tormented until judgement when they recieve the "second death" from Rev Ch 20.


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## JB0704 (Aug 9, 2012)

I follow.   There are many, many ways to look at that.  I had always thought the parable was referring to heaven he11, and never really understood the "chasm" aspect.  But, because it was a parable, I don't really know if the story is ficticious, the setting, or none of it.  The most confusing aspect to me is Abraham's role in determining, or declaring, things.

Interesting thoughts.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 9, 2012)

How long do you think before I get pounced on!


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## JB0704 (Aug 9, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> How long do you think before I get pounced on!



We will see......doesn't seem to be a lot of traffic today.  I think I follow your points, though....pretty straight forward, but I do have a question relevant to the parable....

Because it is a parable, could the information also be fiction, or just the story, or neither.....curious about your position and how it applies here.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 9, 2012)

Is it possible that the resurrection of Jesus brought any changes into the death and resurrection process of believers?

When was the Kingdom of heaven established?
At one point Jesus spoke of the kingdom being 'near' and 'at hand'.  Later, Acts 2, God as adding souls to the kingdom.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 9, 2012)

Elijah and Enoch are in what kind of body in Heaven? I don't think people go directly to Heaven or He!! when they die either. I believe in soul sleep but the Hades/Sheol could be possible for me to believe if they came back to Earth for their bodies before going to Heaven. If  Elijah and Enoch are in Heaven in a body and Jesus is in Heaven in a renewed resurrected body, then we'll go to Heaven in a renewed resurrected body.
One other thing Jesus did said he hadn't ascended to his Father yet. Wouldn't that show he didn't go to Heaven when he died?


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## Huntinfool (Aug 9, 2012)

> Because it is a parable, could the information also be fiction, or just the story, or neither.....curious about your position and how it applies here.



Fictitious, possibly. Inconsistent with what he knows to be the truth?  Definitely not. It would be counter to his character to tell a story that is inconsistent with the truth I think.


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## JB0704 (Aug 9, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> Fictitious, possibly. Inconsistent with what he knows to be the truth?  Definitely not. It would be counter to his character to tell a story that is inconsistent with the truth I think.



Agreed.  Jsut curious about the setting.....and Abraham's role.


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## hawglips (Aug 9, 2012)

I agree with Huntinfool that the thief did not go to heaven that day, but paradise.  And I also agree that when folks die, they do not immediately go to heaven or he77, but to a place where spirits reside awaiting the resurrection -- "paradise" or "prison."


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## hawglips (Aug 9, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> If  Elijah and Enoch are in Heaven in a body and Jesus is in Heaven in a renewed resurrected body, then we'll go to Heaven in a renewed resurrected body.
> One other thing Jesus did said he hadn't ascended to his Father yet. Wouldn't that show he didn't go to Heaven when he died?



I think Elijah and Enoch are in a different state than the final resurrected body that Jesus ascended in, and the perfected resurrected body we will one day have. 

Peter explains where Jesus was during the time between his death and resurrection, in I Peter 3:18-19.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 9, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> Where do you get that Jesus descended to the 'dead' that day?
> 
> Just curious...as I believe Paradise was another word for Heaven.




HF...I think you missed this...or maybe I did.

Just curious as to this.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 9, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> HF...I think you missed this...or maybe I did.
> 
> Just curious as to this.



I'll see if I can track down the scripture when I get back to the office. But it goes along with the question I asked in answer to your question. 

Did he go to Heaven immediately when he died?  If he did, then what happened after he rose from the dead?  Did he re-go?

He died and he took the thief with him wherever he went that day. What was the penalty for sin?  Death, right?  So the logic goes that he died and then overcame death at resurrection. 

I guess the discussion centers around whether you believe he went immediately to heaven at death. If that's the case, what was the point of all the fanfare three days later?  He did not ascend until the third day IMO. 

Obviously most of the passages I am looking at are the same ones a lot of folks use to make the opposite argument. It comes down to how you read them in the context of Rev 20 and 21.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 9, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> I'll see if I can track down the scripture when I get back to the office. But it goes along with the question I asked in answer to your question.
> 
> Did he go to Heaven immediately when he died?  If he did, then what happened after he rose from the dead?  Did he re-go?
> 
> ...



I believe He went to Heaven the day He died.  I don't think there is a reason to think otherwise.  

I think when we try and read too much into scripture, we can get ourselves into trouble.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 9, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> I'll see if I can track down the scripture when I get back to the office. But it goes along with the question I asked in answer to your question.
> 
> Did he go to Heaven immediately when he died?  If he did, then what happened after he rose from the dead?  Did he re-go?
> 
> ...



part of it is matthew 12:40
also 1 peter 3:18-19 and Isaiah 61:1


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## Huntinfool (Aug 9, 2012)

> I believe He went to Heaven the day He died. I don't think there is a reason to think otherwise.



So then he went to Heaven, waited three days, rose again and then went back?

Honestly, that's probably the position of the majority (actually I don't think most people have given it a thought).  So, I don't think that's out of the question.  

I just think the position I'm putting forward seems more consistent with scripture and, especially with the passages in Rev that I'm referring to.

Let me ask this, do you believe that Rev 20 indicates a bodily resurrection for all?

If that's the case, then do all believers go to Heaven at death and then, at judgment are resurrected and judged?


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## JB0704 (Aug 9, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> I believe He went to Heaven the day He died.  I don't think there is a reason to think otherwise.
> 
> I think when we try and read too much into scripture, we can get ourselves into trouble.



If that is the case....how many names for heaven are in the Bible?

How many names for he11 are in the Bible?

It would seem simpler if there are only two destinations, segregated, rather than three with various levels of segregation.....but who knows if simplicity is the point.....


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## JB0704 (Aug 9, 2012)

I think this might be easier using flow charts.......


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## rjcruiser (Aug 9, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> part of it is matthew 12:40
> also 1 peter 3:18-19 and Isaiah 61:1



Matthew 12:40
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

40 for just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

1 Peter 3:18-19
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the [a]spirit; 19 in *which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,


Isaiah 61:1
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Exaltation of the Afflicted
61 The Spirit of the Lord [a]God is upon me,

Because the Lord has anointed me

To bring good news to the  afflicted;

He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,

To proclaim liberty to captives

And [c]freedom to prisoners;





I just put those verses out there for all to see.  I don't think that says anything about Christ going to he!! for 3 days.  The first says that he will be in the ground for 3 days, but says nothing about hel!.  I take it literally, His body was in the earth or grave for 3 days.





Huntinfool said:



			So then he went to Heaven, waited three days, rose again and then went back?

Honestly, that's probably the position of the majority (actually I don't think most people have given it a thought).  So, I don't think that's out of the question.  

I just think the position I'm putting forward seems more consistent with scripture and, especially with the passages in Rev that I'm referring to.

Let me ask this, do you believe that Rev 20 indicates a bodily resurrection for all?

If that's the case, then do all believers go to Heaven at death and then, at judgment are resurrected and judged?
		
Click to expand...


Yes to the first question.  I think He is omnipotent...so I don't think He just went to Heaven...but yes, I think that is what you mean.

I need to look at Rev 20 a bit more.  I think the OT Saints were a little different up until the time of Christ.



JB0704 said:



			If that is the case....how many names for heaven are in the Bible?

How many names for he11 are in the Bible?

It would seem simpler if there are only two destinations, segregated, rather than three with various levels of segregation.....but who knows if simplicity is the point.....
		
Click to expand...


Not sure on the number of names, but Sheol is not hel!.  Ask most OT experts/Hebrew experts and say that that term is different form hel!.  It is a place of rest.  More like the grave.

But for our souls...I think there are just 2 places.  Heaven and Hel!  No third place....no purgatory.



JB0704 said:



			I think this might be easier using flow charts.......
		
Click to expand...


Anyone got a MS Visio license?

*


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## JB0704 (Aug 9, 2012)

View attachment 681326


rjcruiser said:


> Anyone got a MS Visio license?



Nah, man.....I just whipped this thing up using MS paint (not professional at all , but it get's the point across )

Anyway, HF, is this what you are describing?


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## hawglips (Aug 9, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> I believe He went to Heaven the day He died.  I don't think there is a reason to think otherwise.



I think the scriptural record indicates he didn't go to heaven the day he died, but after he was resurrected.

Luke 23: 43-46

John 20: 14-21

1 Peter 3: 18-19


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## JB0704 (Aug 9, 2012)

PRobably should have changed the "good guys / bad guys" terminology....too lazy to go back and fix it now......


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## Huntinfool (Aug 9, 2012)

> For David says concerning him,
> “‘I saw the Lord always before me,
> for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken;
> therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced;
> ...



This is a quote from Ps 16 that is used in Acts.  The only diff is that, in Psalm, "Sheol" is used in place of "Hades".

"Concerning him...", meaning Jesus, is the first part of this passage.  Concerning him, "will not abandon my soul to Hades (Sheol)" and will not let the Holy One see corruption.  An alternative and equally legit transaltion of "corruption" there is "the pit".  The "pit" from the Hebrew understanding was.....Hades.

This is one of the primary places that we can gather that Jesus' soul went somewhere called Sheol or Hades (or the pit), but was not abandoned there.

A whole other thread would be to study the various uses of Sheol, Hades, He||, Gehena and other words that mean different things and why.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 9, 2012)

hawglips said:


> I think the scriptural record indicates he didn't go to heaven the day he died, but after he was resurrected.
> 
> Luke 23: 43-46
> 
> ...



Do y'all mind including the scripture along with the reference?  Just helps I think.


Luke 23:43-46
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

44  It was now about [a] the sixth hour, and darkness *fell over the whole land until [c]the ninth hour, 45 [d]because the sun was obscured; and the veil of the temple was torn [e]in two. 46 And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit.” Having said this, He breathed His last.


Not sure how that is applicable to going to Heaven or not.

John 20:14-21
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

14 When she had said this, she turned around and * saw Jesus standing there, and did not know that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus *said to her, “ Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?” Supposing Him to be the gardener, she *said to Him, “Sir, if you have carried Him away, tell me where you have laid Him, and I will take Him away.” 16 Jesus *said to her, “Mary!” She turned and *said to Him in [a]Hebrew, “ Rabboni!” (which means, Teacher). 17 Jesus *said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’” 18  Mary Magdalene *came, announcing to the disciples, “I have seen the Lord,” and that He had said these things to her.

Jesus among His Disciples
19 So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and *said to them, “ Peace be with you.” 20 And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord. 21 So Jesus said to them again, “ Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.”



Again...same here with this passage. 




1 Peter 3:18-19
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the [a]spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,



????  Still trying to see how this interpreted that He spent 3 days outside of Heaven/Paradise.*


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## Huntinfool (Aug 9, 2012)

Well...in the second passage he had not yet ascended to his Father....who resides in....


Redneck translation..."He ain't been there yet".


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## hobbs27 (Aug 9, 2012)

Rj
John 20:17 Jesus said unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:

You like it literal so you cannot deny this Scripture is proof Jesus did not ascend until after His resurrection. Correct?


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## rjcruiser (Aug 9, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> Well...in the second passage he had not yet ascended to his Father....who resides in....
> 
> 
> Redneck translation..."He ain't been there yet".



No...He hadn't ascended yet as in what happened in Acts 1:9


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## Huntinfool (Aug 9, 2012)

I'm not following.


His spirit went to Heaven at death.  Then he rose physically and went back to Heaven, right?


Is there evidence that his spirit went to Heaven (outside of the 'you'll be with me in paradise' quote)?


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## rjcruiser (Aug 9, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> I'm not following.
> 
> 
> His spirit went to Heaven at death.  Then he rose physically and went back to Heaven, right?
> ...



Umm...not sure what all his spirit did while his body was in the earth.

But...yes, the you'll be in paradise today with me is a key verse.


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## JB0704 (Aug 9, 2012)

So, RJ, you believe paradise and heaven are the same place......?

And, HF, you believe Hades and Paradise are the same place, which is not heaven....?


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## rjcruiser (Aug 9, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> So, RJ, you believe paradise and heaven are the same place......?



Yes.

You'll see I quote that passage often when the "must be baptized to be saved" threads get going.


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## hawglips (Aug 9, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> So, RJ, you believe paradise and heaven are the same place......?
> 
> And, HF, you believe Hades and Paradise are the same place, which is not heaven....?



I don't want to put words in HF's mouth, but I think he believes Hades and paradise are two different places, per your nice drawing and flow chart.   And I believe the same. 

We know that Christ said he'll be in paradise that day, with the thief.  We also know per Peter that he taught spirits in "prison" (Hades, I believe is what HF is calling it) while in spirit form, after he was crucified and before he was resurrected.   "Prison" as I see it is not he77, but a place where those who had not heard or accepted the gospel of Christ go between death and the resurrection.

We also know that Christ had not yet ascended to his Father (heaven) shortly after he was resurrected, because he told Mary that was the reason she was not to touch him.  But then, some time not too long after that, he appeared to the disciples, and let them touch him.  It could be reasonably deducted that sometime between the time he told Mary not to touch him, because he hadn't yet ascended to the Father, and the time he appeared to the disciples and let them handle his flesh and bone resurrected body, he ascended to the Father.

We also know that he appeared many times to others in his resurrected body over the course of time from then till he ascended to Heaven and the angels testified he will come down in like manner sometime in the future.  We also know that other dead did rise from their graves (resurrected) during that time.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 9, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> Is it possible that the resurrection of Jesus brought any changes into the death and resurrection process of believers?



More than possibly but most likely.
Matthew 27:51 And,behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom;and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the gravesafter his resurrection, 



Ronnie T said:


> When was the Kingdom of heaven established?
> At one point Jesus spoke of the kingdom being 'near' and 'at hand'.  Later, Acts 2, God as adding souls to the kingdom.





Just a little study Ive been doing on the Kingdom and trying to let the scripture do the talking, this is not a finished study so please feel free to add or correct anything you notice.

The Kingdom of God is within you:
 Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21Neither shall they say, lo here! or, lo there! For, behold, the kingdom of God is within you

Are we in the kingdom?

Rev.1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation,and in the kingdom.

Col.1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translatedus into the kingdom of his dear son


Matt.13:41 The son of man shall send fourth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity. _this is not to establish a kingdom but to cleanse it_

Matt.16:28 Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom

Mark 9:1 And he said unto them,Verily I say unto you, that there be some that stand here, which shall not taste of death,till they have seen the kingdom of God come in power.

Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

The greek for taste is to experience. IMO you cannot be saved until you are lost
  Ephesians 2:1 And you hath quickened , who were dead in trespasses and sins.
 Until one is saved by grace, spiritually speaking they are dead, and given eternal life upon salvation.
 knowing that I have an experience of grace that brought me from death to life, I know the kingdom has come.

Luke 22:16For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. 

_Jesus is clear he will not eat until the kingdom has come and is fulfilled_

Luke 24:40 And when he hath thus spoken, he showed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto themHave ye here any meat?42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb,
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

Acts 10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

Can't we eat with him?

Rev.3:20 Behold I stand at the door, and knock, if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me

John the Baptist saw it coming

Matthew 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judea,
2 and saying, repent ye: for the kingdom of God is at hand.

The Holy Ghost came at pentacost.The kingdom was before that or Paul wouldn't have said this

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but rightousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

The Kingdom is not in word but power

1 Cor 4:20 For the Kingdom of God is not in word , but in power
1 Cor 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of mans wisdom, but in demonstration of the spirit and of power

John had preached The Kingdom is at Hand...Paul was preaching in the Kingdom

John3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily,verily I say unto thee, except a man be born again,he cannot see the kingdom of God

(see) in greek means (know) the word know means to be aquainted or familiar with

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren

IMO salvation comes as we are spiritually born into a spiritual kingdom, and then we KNOW we are saved.

The facts are obvious, the kingdom came here at the victory on calvary, we are not awaiting a future kingdom, we are in it now.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 9, 2012)

I agree Hobbs.

Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach and say, “ Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Matthew 7:21
 “ Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Matthew 13:11
Jesus answered them, “ To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.

Matthew 21:31
“Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you.

Mark 1:15
 “ The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

John 18:36
Jesus answered, “ My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”

Acts 2:47  And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.(NASB)
Acts 2:47  And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. (KJV)


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 9, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> More than possibly but most likely.
> Matthew 27:51 And,behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom;and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
> 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection.



Did those saints ascend into Heaven after they arose?


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## hobbs27 (Aug 9, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Did those saints ascend into Heaven after they arose?



They went into the Holy City and were seen by many...and as far as I know thats the last we are told of them.

I believe they ascended also.I can't imagine our God raising them from sleep just to let them taste death once again.


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## JB0704 (Aug 9, 2012)

hawglips said:


> I don't want to put words in HF's mouth, but I think he believes Hades and paradise are two different places, per your nice drawing and flow chart.   And I believe the same.



I was wondering if anybody saw it....hf never clarifief if I had it right.  I am a visual learner.

But, if I am correct, HF is saying paradise and torment are two different sides of hades.



hawglips said:


> We know that Christ said he'll be in paradise that day, with the thief.  We also know per Peter that he taught spirits in "prison" (Hades, I believe is what HF is calling it) while in spirit form, after he was crucified and before he was resurrected.  "Prison" as I see it is not he77, but a place where those who had not heard or accepted the gospel of Christ go between death and the resurrection.



Then, would my previous comment relative to everybdoy pre-crucifixion having a chance be accurate if the above is correct?  Everybody would have heard the message....I guess....



hawglips said:


> We also know that Christ had not yet ascended to his Father (heaven) shortly after he was resurrected, because he told Mary that was the reason she was not to touch him.  But then, some time not too long after that, he appeared to the disciples, and let them touch him.  It could be reasonably deducted that sometime between the time he told Mary not to touch him, because he hadn't yet ascended to the Father, and the time he appeared to the disciples and let them handle his flesh and bone resurrected body, he ascended to the Father.



But, then he would have had to come back....then ascend again.  This would make five seperate trips post crucifixion.....Earth to paradise.  Paradise to Earth.  Earth to the father.  Father to the earth.  Earth to the father.



hawglips said:


> We also know that he appeared many times to others in his resurrected body over the course of time from then till he ascended to Heaven and the angels testified he will come down in like manner sometime in the future.  We also know that other dead did rise from their graves (resurrected) during that time.



I understand where you are coming from with this.  I have just never really studied it.  Perhaps it is laziness on my part, but my head hurts when I think of heaven and he11....so I have never really dug into, I guess in an effort to avoid confusion.  It seems that there are many believers on here who have drawn different conclusions from the same evidence.  And this stuff seems fundamental.

This is a good thread.  I am learning a bunch.  Not sure which side I land on.....but I am enjoying reading along.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 9, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Then, would my previous comment relative to everybody pre-crucifixion having a chance be accurate if the above is correct?  Everybody would have heard the message....I guess...



So they all get a chance to accept Jesus after death but we must do it before death.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 9, 2012)

When Jesus died, his spirit went to Paradise to preach. To me this sounds like a different spirit than the Holy Spirit which is God's spirit. Albeit the Holy Spirit can enter me but still be different from my spirit.

Once Jesus resurrected he was no longer a spirit. Don't all Christians agree on this?


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## JB0704 (Aug 9, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> So they all get a chance to accept Jesus after death but we must do it before death.



I dont know.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 10, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Once Jesus resurrected he was no longer a spirit. Don't all Christians agree on this?



Hardly. Most Christians believe Jesus is God, as do I.God is a spirit.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 10, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> So they all get a chance to accept Jesus after death but we must do it before death.



Remember Job said,"I know my redeemer liveth.". They died in the faith that Christ was coming one day to free us of sin eternally, or they died denying it, in which they were Judged to he11, as the rich man was.
 One interesting note about the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.The rich man had no name that Jesus could give him...and the Judgement of those condemned to he11, Jesus says, "And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity"...Not a name is given or known of those that don't know Christ.
 There's alot of this stuff in The Books of Enoch by Joseph B Lumpkin, you can buy this book online, it's good information and ties in to alot of what we accept as inspired scripture.Enoch is swept away and shown mysteries of Heaven and Earth by the Angels.There's evidence now that the early Christians carried these books and considered them scripture.In this book it explains alot of what happened to the souls of those that died in the faith during the old testament.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 10, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> Hardly. Most Christians believe Jesus is God, as do I.God is a spirit.



But didn't Jesus show the deciples that he arose in a physical body of flesh & bones? What was it Jesus did and asked the deciples, could a spirit do this?


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## rjcruiser (Aug 10, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> But didn't Jesus show the deciples that he arose in a physical body of flesh & bones? What was it Jesus did and asked the deciples, could a spirit do this?



Could a physical body go through doors and walls to visit the disciples?

Lots of questions can be asked...lots of answers can be given.  The key is to make sure that one's interpretation of scripture does not contradict other scripture.


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## StriperAddict (Aug 10, 2012)

Randy Alcorn's take on eternity is excellent, IMO.  I don't think there's major deviation from scripture in his books... they are filled with wonderful encouragement and excitement. 
Art's post below sheds some light on the considerations of our bodies, by the same author, as well as considerations about the "place" of heaven being "touchable, physical, etc" (sorry if that's out of the topic). Sorry for 'stealing', but I thought it belonged here, too    (and over in the "body" thread as well):



Artfuldodger said:


> I haven't read his book but I did read an article where he was describing Heaven. It sounds more realistic the way he describes it.
> I don't remember the exact article but found these things he describes about Heaven:
> 8. Jesus said, “I go to prepare a place for you” (John 14:2, KFV). He didn’t say, “I go to an indescribable realm devoid of physical properties, where your disembodied spirit will float around, and which is nothing at all like what you’ve ever thought of as home.”
> 
> ...


 
Randy's other book "Heaven" is also an excellent book for this subject.


Even in our most fantastic "vision" of heaven and going to be with the Lord in all the wonder we can possibly fathom, the Lord still had Paul to pen this:

*1 Corinthians 2:9*
But as it is written: "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have *entered* *into* *the* *heart* of man *the* things which God hath prepared for them that love Him."


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## JB0704 (Aug 10, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> Lots of questions can be asked...lots of answers can be given.  The key is to make sure that one's interpretation of scripture does not contradict other scripture.



Now this is gettin' somewhere.  I believe you think we die, go to heaven and wait for judgement?   Does that contradict the counter position that we die, go to hades and wait for judgement?   Or, is there any Biblical case against the other?

Or, does it all fall back on what we think "paradise" and "hades" are?


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## StriperAddict (Aug 10, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> ... we die, go to heaven and wait for judgement? Does that contradict the counter position that we die, go to hades and wait for judgement? Or, is there any Biblical case against the other?


 
Scripture makes it clear that the judgement seat of Christ for believers has nothing to do with sin and its penalty... since the cross paid it ALL.  Our acts of sin(s) will get in the way of 'rewards', so while we live on terra firma NOW we would do well to abide in His presence so the power of sin doesn't take hold and hurt our testimony/witness and rewards.  
The great White Throne judgement is for the unredeemed, they are judged out of the "books" (the law), since they did NOT die to the law and to sin in the person of Christ and His sacrifice for it.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 10, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> Randy Alcorn's take on eternity is excellent, IMO.  I don't think there's major deviation from scripture in his books... they are filled with wonderful encouragement and excitement.



One word of caution when it comes to Alcorn's books.  While he doesn't deviate from scripture, he doesn't follow it either.  There is a lot of personal interpretation in his books.  Not saying it is wrong...nor am I saying it goes against scripture...but he does add a bunch of color where color isn't given in scripture.

Just to clarify...since I don't want to be misunderstood...I'm not saying his books are wrong.



JB0704 said:


> Now this is gettin' somewhere.  I believe you think we die, go to heaven and wait for judgement?   Does that contradict the counter position that we die, go to hades and wait for judgement?   Or, is there any Biblical case against the other?
> 
> Or, does it all fall back on what we think "paradise" and "hades" are?





StriperAddict said:


> Scripture makes it clear that the judgement seat of Christ for believers has nothing to do with sin and its penalty... since the cross paid it ALL.  Our acts of sin(s) will get in the way of 'rewards', so while we live on terra firma NOW we would do well to abide in His presence so the power of sin doesn't take hold and hurt our testimony/witness and rewards.
> The great White Throne judgement is for the unredeemed, they are judged out of the "books" (the law), since they did NOT die to the law and to sin in the person of Christ and His sacrifice for it.



I agree with Striper.

I believe when I die, I will be Heaven right away...no holding cell.


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## JB0704 (Aug 10, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> I believe when I die, I will be Heaven right away...no holding cell.



Ok.  Now, why do you believe that as opposed to the other "holding cell" theories explained in this thread (not trying to be difficult, just looking for clarity).  What are your biblical references, and is there anything biblically that makes you believe the "hades" position is wrong?


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## hobbs27 (Aug 10, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Now this is gettin' somewhere.  I believe you think we die, go to heaven and wait for judgement?   Does that contradict the counter position that we die, go to hades and wait for judgement?   Or, is there any Biblical case against the other?
> 
> Or, does it all fall back on what we think "paradise" and "hades" are?



Let me throw in a little more to ponder on, as I see it.

We die spiritually (age of accountability) brought back to life spiritually (salvation) never to die again.Sure we shed this carnal body, but our judgement came when we were born into his kingdom(salvation) The final judgement being a separation of those that Jesus knows and those He don't.
That's just what the scriptures have led me to believe...there's tons of opinions on this though.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 10, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Ok.  Now, why do you believe that as opposed to the other "holding cell" theories explained in this thread (not trying to be difficult, just looking for clarity).  What are your biblical references, and is there anything biblically that makes you believe the "hades" position is wrong?



The main one is the thief on the cross.  

I'm trying to think of others...have to go back and review my Dan/Rev notes from college 

I will say, I think the bodies of the OT saints....and maybe even NT saints are in the ground and will be raised up when the rapture happens.  Their bodies will rise first and then those still alive will be raptured up into Heaven.

I think that pushes the belief that the spirits/souls of believers are immediately in heaven, while their physical bodies are still here in this earth or sheol (place of resting).


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 10, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> Could a physical body go through doors and walls to visit the disciples?
> 
> Lots of questions can be asked...lots of answers can be given.  The key is to make sure that one's interpretation of scripture does not contradict other scripture.



Are you refering to John 20:19?
Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

When the doors were shut - This does not mean that the doors were fastened, though that might have been the case, but only that they were closed. 
Came Jesus ... - There is no evidence that he came into their assembly in any miraculous manner. For anything that appears to the contrary, Jesus entered in the usual way and manner, though his sudden appearance alarmed them.

Another view is Jesus had and could use divine powers:
This means that, ordinarily, even after the resurrection, Christ could not walk through walls. Still, on certain occasions (like when he exited the tomb and when he entered the locked room where the apostles were), through his divine power working in his glorified body, Christ walked through walls.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 10, 2012)

Who said anything about a 'holding cell'?

Jesus, himself, may very well have referred to it as 'paradise'.


I need to ask this again because I'm not sure I got an answer yet and it's crucial to the discussion of whether you go straight to Heaven in my mind.  What do you guys believe about bodily resurrection?

Will there be a bodily resurrection of those who have been saved?  It's seems pretty clear in scripture that some group(s) of people will be raised, isn't it?  Just the un-saved maybe?

The other issue that I haven't heard a real good explanation is where was Jesus' soul friday night, all day sat and part of sun?  Did it ascend to Heaven only to be "sent back" three days later so that it could re-ascend?


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## JB0704 (Aug 10, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> Who said anything about a 'holding cell'?



Hades....where folks go until judgement.


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## JB0704 (Aug 10, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> The main one is the thief on the cross.



Isn't the word there "paradise," which could also reinforce HF's position?


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## rjcruiser (Aug 10, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Are you refering to John 20:19?
> Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
> 
> When the doors were shut - This does not mean that the doors were fastened, though that might have been the case, but only that they were closed.
> ...



Really?  You think that when Jesus showed himself to the disciples after his resurrection he came in through the door?  I've never known anyone to hold this position.  To me, it seems pretty point blank that he just appeared...as the disciples were pretty much in hiding.

Not saying you're wrong...just saying I've never heard your position before.



Huntinfool said:


> Who said anything about a 'holding cell'?
> 
> Jesus, himself, may very well have referred to it as 'paradise'.



Anything compared to Heaven is a holding cell 





Huntinfool said:


> I need to ask this again because I'm not sure I got an answer yet and it's crucial to the discussion of whether you go straight to Heaven in my mind.  What do you guys believe about bodily resurrection?
> 
> Will there be a bodily resurrection of those who have been saved?  It's seems pretty clear in scripture that some group(s) of people will be raised, isn't it?  Just the un-saved maybe?



Souls go to Heaven...bodies go into the ground.  I've seen it with my own eyes....bodies...in the grave...and their is no soul..no life in the bodies I've seen burried.



Huntinfool said:


> The other issue that I haven't heard a real good explanation is where was Jesus' soul friday night, all day sat and part of sun?  Did it ascend to Heaven only to be "sent back" three days later so that it could re-ascend?



I don't think scripture is real clear on where Jesus went.  We know it was in heaven based on his discussion with the thief on the cross ........



JB0704 said:


> Isn't the word there "paradise," which could also reinforce HF's position?



Yes...or it could reinforce my position.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 10, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> Really?  You think that when Jesus showed himself to the disciples after his resurrection he came in through the door?  I've never known anyone to hold this position.  To me, it seems pretty point blank that he just appeared...as the disciples were pretty much in hiding.
> 
> Not saying you're wrong...just saying I've never heard your position before.



Not really my position as I gave two different views but it was under commentaries from this site:
http://bible.cc/john/20-19.htm

My position would be that Jesus was given special powers from his Father. God's power through Jesus could certainly make him appear in a room or exit a tomb with a big stone blocking his way. That was the second position I gave.
My position is that Jesus' resurrected body was a physical body and not just a spirit.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 10, 2012)

Then there is the opinion of the comma being in the wrong place.
As Jesus Christ hung dying, He told a convicted criminal being crucified with Him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
The placement of the comma after "you" and before "today" would certainly seem to indicate this. However, notice how an entirely different meaning is conveyed if the comma is placed after "today" rather than before: "Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise."
http://www.ucg.org/booklet/heaven-and--


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## Huntinfool (Aug 10, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> Could a physical body go through doors and walls to visit the disciples?



I'd say that, if the Spirit of the Lord can snatch up a non-divine person and take them instantly from one place to another, he could certainly do it to a divine-human who has a physical body....couldn't he?

_	And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he passed through he preached the gospel to all the towns until he came to Caesarea.
(Acts 8:38-40 ESV)_

If he died as a human, in order to truly conquer the power of death, it seems to me that he had to rise again as a human.

You say you've never heard anybody suggest that he rose with a physical body?  I've never heard anybody sugggest otherwise....except Jehovas Witness.  You aren't gonna show up at my front door this Saturday are ya RJ?


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## JB0704 (Aug 10, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> If he died as a human, in order to truly conquer the power of death, it seems to me that he had to rise again as a human.



But isn't that speculation?


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## Huntinfool (Aug 10, 2012)

More like theology or even possibly doctrine.  But no, I wouldn't say it's speculation.


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## JB0704 (Aug 10, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> More like theology or even possibly doctrine.  But no, I wouldn't say it's speculation.



I'm talking about what had to be done to conquer death.  What is the reference for the body being necessary?

Again, and I have said this a bunch in here.....I am not trying to be difficult, I am trying to understand where you are coming from with this.

I tend to lean towards RJ's position, but the only reason for that is that it is the way I was raised.....I can't give a "defense" for it....so I don't "claim it" if that makes any sense.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 10, 2012)

Not to be flippant....but what, exactly, is death?

At the base of it all, death is the physical cessation of all of the processes that are required for life, right (or some better definition)?

The punishement for sin is not He||, it's death.  There has never been any question as to whether a soul (whether saved or unsaved) will exist forever.  

So, for death to occur, the body has to cease to function.  What has to happen for one to be resurrected from the dead?


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## JB0704 (Aug 10, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> Not to be flippant....but what, exactly, is death?
> 
> At the base of it all, death is the physical cessation of all of the processes that are required for life, right (or some better definition)?
> 
> ...



I have heard death defined as "seperation from God."

Now, death to you and me is the cessation of the life process.  Spiritual death is another story.  

But, where I am going with this is that the mechanism used to conquer death, whether he used his old body, or a new one, or another person's body, is irrelevant to whether or not he is still living....because I believe it is our soul which defines "us" as individuals, not our physical attributes.  Which is to say you are you long after your body is dust.

And this brings up another point....the one about not being able to touch him because he had not yet ascended....does that make any sense to anybody?  Why would God make such a rule?  It seems to exist for no reason.  Just curious if you (or anybody really) had thoughts on that.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 10, 2012)

> ....because I believe it is our soul which defines "us" as individuals, not our physical attributes.



But isn't that speculation?


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## JB0704 (Aug 10, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> But isn't that speculation?



Not really.  The Bible seems to indicate we are known to him well before we are born.  At least Jeremiah was.  And you might agree that wherever we go after we die, heaven or hades or he11, we don't take the body with us.

Lazarus was still lazarus in hades even though he didn't have his body with him.

So, I would claim I have relatively solid biblical grounding on that position.


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## barryl (Aug 10, 2012)

*Amen!!!!!*



rjcruiser said:


> Could a physical body go through doors and walls to visit the disciples?
> 
> Lots of questions can be asked...lots of answers can be given.  The key is to make sure that one's interpretation of scripture does not contradict other scripture.


Thats a BIG AMEN!!!!!!!!!!


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## rjcruiser (Aug 10, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> I'd say that, if the Spirit of the Lord can snatch up a non-divine person and take them instantly from one place to another, he could certainly do it to a divine-human who has a physical body....couldn't he?
> 
> _	And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he passed through he preached the gospel to all the towns until he came to Caesarea.
> (Acts 8:38-40 ESV)_
> ...



No...I was saying that I've never heard someone saying that Jesus showed up in the upper room with the disciples by coming through the front door.

They were freaked out and in hiding.  Had the windows shut and the door locked...then Christ showed up.  His body was physical as he asked Thomas to feel the hole in his side and the holes in the hands.

I think Jesus went out of his way to show his resurrected body was physical...not just a spirit.

But....while his physical body was in the grave, the spirit was moving around imho.


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## StriperAddict (Aug 10, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Not really. The Bible seems to indicate we are known to him well before we are born. [Yes we are! ] At least Jeremiah was. And you might agree that wherever we go after we die, heaven or hades or he11, we don't take the body with us.


 
Agreed.
Along the point you made above, here is one to consider:
John 3:16 says we have eternal life (As does other places in scripture), so that means as a saved individual we have God's kind of life, correct? 
How long is eternity... forever, correct?
But how does God _really view_ eternity? It has no beginning, nor no end!

So if we are given the gift of eternal life... that makes us God kind of eternal beings in Christ, no??  

Sorry if  ... just something to consider.  

(And yes, I view all believers as eternal beings in Christ!)


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 10, 2012)

OK, here is one more view i've been studying. As a believer in "soul sleep" I can perceive it to be possible but this will require help from the Holy Spirit for me to believe this. The concept i'm referring to is that when Jesus died he was also in a state of "soul sleep". Again going through all the stages that man must go through. 
Jesus was made alive by the Spirit. This he was at his resurrection. The Holy Spirit awakened him. After all he was dead, he couldn't resurrect himself. 
Jesus had already been resurrected when he preached to the "spirits in prison."
There are verses that say Jesus was in the ground for three days.
This concept might be easier to follow if you believe Jesus had a different spirit from the Holy Spirit which is God's spirit.
Links:
http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseac...oss-Go-Heaven-with-Jesus-Christ-Luke-2343.htm
http://www.ukapologetics.net/08/lightning/1a.htm


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 10, 2012)

Another take on "Jesus was made alive by the spirit" This time it was not the Holy Spirit but Jesus' spirit. (aha, he did have his own spirit):
In other words, the distinction between the flesh and the spirit is not a distinction between material and immaterial.  Rather, the distinction is between two different types of physical existence.

Life in the flesh refers life under the curse of sin and death.  Our flesh is subject to decay.  It’s subject to all the limitations of this fallen world.   Life in the flesh is temporary.

Life in the Spirit refers resurrection life.  It is characterized by God’s glory and power.  It refers to a life energized by the Spirit of God.   This life is eternal.  Life in the Spirit is new creation life.  The Spirit is the agent who brings about God’s new creation (Gen 1:2; 2:7).

So when Peter says that Jesus was “put to death in the flesh but made alive in the Spirit,” he means that the resurrection involved the transformation of Jesus’ physical body.   When God raised Jesus from the dead, God brought new life and renewal to Jesus’ body.  His resurrection body was no longer subject to the limitations of this fallen world.  His resurrection body was not subject to decay.  It was not subject to death or disease.

Prior to the resurrection, Jesus’ body was perishable.  After the resurrection, his body was imperishable.
http://anchorforthesoul.org/2011/12/15/jesus-was-made-alive-in-the-spirit-1-peter-318/

The contrast is between flesh and spirit, as in Matthew 27:46 and Romans 1:3-4, and not between Christ's flesh and the Holy Spirit. When Christ's atonement for sin was completed, His spirit restored the fellowship which had been broken.
http://www.gotquestions.org/where-was-Jesus.html

Jesus was put to death in the flesh, but was made alive by the Spirit. The word “made alive” is passive, meaning that someone other than Jesus made Him alive. Either Jesus was made alive by the Spirit, or in His spirit. Either way the Spirit must have been involved.
http://www.epm.org/resources/2010/Feb/5/what-happened-after-jesus-died/


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 10, 2012)

To begin with, Peter referred to people as "souls" and not "spirits" (3:20). In the New Testament, the word "spirits" is used to describe angels or demons, not human beings, and verse 22 seems to bear out this meaning.

This is confusing to me because 1 Peter 4:6 says that Jesus preached the Gospel to the dead. I'm not sure who these dead are. I would assume they are sinners of the Old Testament. 
This goes against my teaching that after you are dead, it's too late.
But I can't argue with the scripture. I know Catholics believe dead people can still get into Heaven.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 11, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> To begin with, Peter referred to people as "souls" and not "spirits" (3:20). In the New Testament, the word "spirits" is used to describe angels or demons, not human beings, and verse 22 seems to bear out this meaning.
> 
> This is confusing to me because 1 Peter 4:6 says that Jesus preached the Gospel to the dead. I'm not sure who these dead are. I would assume they are sinners of the Old Testament.
> This goes against my teaching that after you are dead, it's too late.
> But I can't argue with the scripture. I know Catholics believe dead people can still get into Heaven.



Something happened at Calvary and it was BIG. Some, myself included believe through the preaching of the Gospel by Jesus to the OT saints held captive in paradise, freed those saints and bound satan.To this day satan is bound by the gospel, he or {most likely a she}  has no power over the gospel of Jesus Christ.


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## StriperAddict (Aug 11, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> Something happened at Calvary and it was BIG. Some, myself included believe through the preaching of the Gospel by Jesus to the OT saints held captive in paradise, freed those saints and bound satan.To this day satan is bound by the gospel, he or {most likely a she}  has no power over the gospel of Jesus Christ.



Indeed. The power of the gospel of Jesus Christ also freed those OT saints, because before the cross they had atonement, or covering of their sins... but not the _taking away of their sins_, which was finalized by the offering of Christ. 

*Hebrews 10:1*
[ _One Sacrifice of Christ Is Sufficient_ ]   For the Law, since it  has only  a shadow of  the good things to come and not the very  form  of things,  _can  never, by the same sacrifices which they offer  continually year by year,  make *perfect* those who draw near_.

*Hebrews 10:14*
For by _one offering_ He has  _*perfect*ed  for all time_ those who are  sanctified.
Hebrews 10:13-15 (in Context) 

Also...
*Hebrews 7:19*
For the law made nothing *perfect*, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+7:18-20&version=KJV
Those 3 days are something of a mystery as to how the complete work of Christ was come to bless the OT folks, and us, but I'll trust that the permanent work of it for them, and us, _stands sure_. Praise the Lord!


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 14, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> Agreed.
> Along the point you made above, here is one to consider:
> John 3:16 says we have eternal life (As does other places in scripture), so that means as a saved individual we have God's kind of life, correct?
> How long is eternity... forever, correct?
> ...


 We do have eternal life. Do you recall the part of your life before you were born? So a period of sleeping isn't considered death. We sleep every night.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 14, 2012)

Here is an article about Sheol. In Sheol our souls will sleep. So it's not to far off from "soul sleep". I call it "Sheol sleep".
a lack of cognitive awareness in that state.

Sheol is Sleep

David prayed to the LORD, “Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; light up my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death.”33  He anticipated that his death would find him in Sheol and doing what all others in Sheol are doing: not praising, not singing, not playing golden harps. He defined existence in Sheol as sleeping the sleep of death.  The exact phrase “slept with his fathers” is found 36 times in the Old Testament.34  It was a common expression used to describe the fact that someone had died.

Daniel described existence in Sheol as sleeping in the dust of the earth. 35  It was a condition which required an awakening – a resurrection. This sleep was never the hope of Old Testament saints. The resurrection and restoration to life was the hope. Sleep was simply a way of describing the state of death itself. Jesus used the same terminology to describe the death-state of Jairus’ daughter.36  He said of Lazarus (in Sheol) that he had “fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him”.37
http://www.afterlife.co.nz/free-resources/articles-reviews/sheol-the-old-testament-consensus/

This article is from a site that believes this too:
Annihilationism (from Latin annihilō) is a Christian belief that apart from salvation the death of human beings results in their total destruction (annihilation) rather than their everlasting torment.


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## StriperAddict (Aug 15, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Do you recall the part of your life before you were born?


I don't have to. I was addressing God's perspective (which is reality) in mentioning eternity.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 15, 2012)

> Annihilationism (from Latin annihilō) is a Christian belief that apart from salvation the death of human beings results in their total destruction (annihilation) rather than their everlasting torment.



...which is not biblical and cannot, in any way, be supported biblically.  So, take what they put on their site with that knowledge.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 15, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> ...which is not biblical and cannot, in any way, be supported biblically.  So, take what they put on their site with that knowledge.



I do that with any site or individual but I can agree with someone's view without believing everything they believe in. I'm mostly looking at Bible verses than someone's views on Biblical topics. I don't have a problem reading Bible verses from any source if indeed they are from the Holy Bible.

I believe in a literal eternal He!!.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 15, 2012)

I wood agree with this Church's Statement of Faith:
We believe that all true believers have the truth of the essential doctrines of the Christian faith and in these there must be unity. However, no one man or denomination is without some measure of error. Therefore, we believe it is a mistake to follow after any one man's teaching or denomination at the exclusion of the teachings of the universal Christian Church. God has gifted men and women throughout His Church, and it is to our own spiritual detriment to exclude them from our pursuit of truth that we might grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord. We can learn from all men and we can be deceived by all men. Therefore we are called to, Test all things; hold fast what is good (1 Thess. 5:21) to "test the spirits, whether they are of God" (1 John 4:1) and to search the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things are so (Acts 17:11). The final authority in regard to Christian Doctrine, in faith and practice, is to be found in the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments. "Let God be true and every man a liar" (Rom. 3:4)
http://www.truthaccordingtoscripture.com/about-us.php


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## farmasis (Aug 15, 2012)

Hey folks...haven't been here in a long time, just passing through and leaving my $0.02.

Yes, I believe there are many in heaven.

I believe souls were placed in Sheol at death prior to Jesus. I believe there were two realms in Sheol for those who were wicked and those who were righteous by the way of the law. I think paradise and the bossom of Abraham are synonyms for the holding area of the righteous in Sheol. Hades or Gehenna was the holding place for the wicked. I believe Jesus desended to the realm of the dead souls and judged those who died prior to his death and he led those found righteous to heaven (Eph 4:8-10, 1 Peter 3:18-20). The Bible is clear that he led a 'host of captives' with him when he ascended. I believe that now when we believers die, we are immediately present with God. (2 Cor 5:6-8). These will return as the army of the Lord at the second coming.


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