# Beginning to believe but in what?



## jerseycat9 (Jun 10, 2013)

Hello all,

 I have more or less been atheist for most of my life is how I guess I would describe it. Ive always been fearful of one little detail, what if Im wrong? Ive been looking but just never seemed to find the evidence I was looking for to believe whole heartedly in our lord. 

 Over the past two years Ive had a grouping of strange events happen and I believe these events were pointed directly at me as a wake up. Some of these events were so strange in nature and timing that there has been a feeling growing inside of me that I am wrong.

 I was born a catholic but was baptized later in life under the Baptist church. But why so many different churches and versions of Christianity? I would like to begin more actively searching for answers but Im not sure what church is right for me or even if it is necessary. Ive been to many churches many times with all different people who claimed it was the right place to be but I had never felt it.

 What Im asking I guess is what is your church and why is it that you go, what brings you there?

Id like to know and maybe this will help me move into a place where I can begin.

Thank you,
Terry


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## bullethead (Jun 11, 2013)

jerseycat9 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I have more or less been atheist for most of my life is how I guess I would describe it. Ive always been fearful of one little detail, what if Im wrong? Ive been looking but just never seemed to find the evidence I was looking for to believe whole heartedly in our lord.
> 
> ...



Pro or Con...
Atheist,Deist,Theist...

Go with your Gut feelings. There is just as good a chance that you/me/we/they/us are wrong no matter what we choose.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 11, 2013)

Try to go with some friends to different places is one way. Another way is to get in your vehicle Sunday morning, pick a direction to start driving, ask the Lord to direct you, when you find a place that you feel like getting out of the car and going in..go. It sounds like He is drawing you, and He will draw you in the right direction. Believe it or not!


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## Israel (Jun 11, 2013)

seeking truth and seeking to "be right" are two entirely different pursuits.
the first will have you discover someone that is not you...and you will be very glad.
the latter, well, not a man ever born needs more encouragement in that...


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 11, 2013)

Get you a copy of Mere Christianity by CS Lewis.  It's 99 cents digitally.  It's  an easy read and is considered a classic with regards to what Christianity is about.  Its actually fun to read.  From there you need a good church.  There are a lot of good ones out there and some not so good ones. The first sign it is a good church is that it is growing and thriving.  Then Read the Bible and make sure what is being taught is accurate.


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## formula1 (Jun 11, 2013)

*Re:*

Terry,

I am very glad to know that your are beginning to listen to God's voice inside you.  Thankfully, you are looking for Him now.

I just wanted to take a minute and answer your question about why so many Christian churches and denominations and why in my thinking that is a very good thing. In my own experience, I've gone to a lot of different Christian churches.  This has been an advantage to me in that I came to the understanding of how many different groups and denominations think and view Christ, both in history and as God in human form. I now am in a Baptist church, but the Baptist is irrelavent in my view. The different church experiences I have had have lead me to the understanding of just how important the scriptures are in leading you to God's truth and for me, I welcome the variety.  Also, no one denomination, however valid, has all the truth.  The truth rests completely in knowing Christ as Lord!

What is relavent in my church is do they preach and teach the truth of Christ according to the the scriptures and do they love one another and also those who are considered outsiders who come in (like you would be). My church is far from perfect (we are a beautiful mess that God is using), but these things they do well.  I really believe a church or group of believers in Christ will have those attributes.

Continue seeking Christ and His truth for your life and I promise you will find Him!  God bless and I added a scripture for you!

Isaiah 66
1 Thus says the Lord:“Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool; what is the house that you would build for me, and what is the place of my rest?
2 All these things my hand has made, and so all these things came to be declares the Lord. But this is the one to whom I will look: he who is humble and contrite in spirit and trembles at my word.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 11, 2013)

jerseycat9 said:


> Ive been to many churches many times with all different people who claimed it was the right place to be but I had never felt it.


I would encourage you to study your Bible. Ask the Lord to reveal himself on each and every page. There will be paradigm shifts in your thinking and you will find that the believer has a far superior way of knowing anything at all.


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## gtparts (Jun 11, 2013)

So far you've gotten a range of responses, which doesn't surprise me. Bullethead says that your choice is just a crapshoot in its results (maybe a lottery without a prize?). That view is widely held by many, but it is not very satisfying to the seeker.

The posts by Formula1, Israel, and SemperFiDawg most closely reflect the advice I would give you.

Following Christ is not necessarily the same as being a member of a local church body, That is, denominations and local gatherings are organizations of like-minded (for the most part) individuals and at various times have failed to preach/teach the Gospel, pure and undefiled by agendas of men. Still, the local _ecclesia_ is where we learn to live in unity, are challenged in our spiritual growth, and are prepared for service in the cause of Christ. It is the expectation of Christ for each of us. That makes the choice of which group you choose to affiliate with very important. Whatever things that are taught and supported by that group must be compared to Scripture and committed to the leading of the Holy Spirit. The search may be long and arduous or short and sweet, but it is critical to take whatever time is necessary to be "rooted" in the most Christ-like church you can find. Likewise, when you seek to join a small group or Bible study.

That brings me to another point. I mention prayer and the reading of the Bible together for this reason. Each strengthens the other. God gave them to us because we need both (just as we need the fellowship of other Christ-followers). 

There is much to learn and experience, but these things are a good start on having a right relationship with God. Praying for you as you seek the truth. God wants all to know and live in the truth.


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## barryl (Jun 11, 2013)

Great news JCat, you have gotten some great responses so far. Let me point you to some scriptures, 1 Cor. 15:1-4{The Gospel}, Romans Ch. 10, especially verse 17. I'm prayin for man !!


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## 04ctd (Jun 11, 2013)

gtparts said:


> it is critical to take whatever time is necessary to be "rooted" in the most Christ-like church you can find. Likewise, when you seek to join a small group or Bible study.



I use this parable alot:
church is a lot like pizza ..
-if you go to a pizza place, and the pizza ain't good..do you go back?
-if you go to a pizza place, and it's good, do you go back?
-do you go out to eat every weekend? then you should go to church every weekend.

that works real well in a "5 minute evangelism" scenario at a service station or check out line.


reflecting on what GTP said....you need to find the RIGHT place for you: pizza ain't too hot, ain't too cold, not too big, not too small.

because once you settle in, you become "church family" and you should grow together, have good fellowship, hunt together, shoot together (my wife took the WMU to one of the "womens nights" at the local gun range)


keep going somewhere different, until you  like the 'pizza'
keep reading your Bible & Praying.

the other item i usually teach is a 
"personal praying relationship" with Jesus Christ.
if you meditate on those three words, you will see a WORLD of meaning in that phrase.

pray more!


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## THREEJAYS (Jun 11, 2013)

Earnestly seek and you will find. I couldn't add i don't think to what has already been said.


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## jerseycat9 (Jun 11, 2013)

gtparts said:


> So far you've gotten a range of responses, which doesn't surprise me. Bullethead says that your choice is just a crapshoot in its results (maybe a lottery without a prize?). That view is widely held by many, but it is not very satisfying to the seeker.
> 
> The posts by Formula1, Israel, and SemperFiDawg most closely reflect the advice I would give you.
> 
> ...


Even if it is a lottery with no prize I cannot see a fault with living by the guidelines of an honest, god fearing individual. I guess that's the prize in itself even if wrong. But I do feel I am ready for further searching. I want a church that will be more about teaching than singing and trying to scare the beejezus out of me. I want a better way of life and a more positive outlook on everything in general. Even if its a life long search it would be worth it I believe.


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## Israel (Jun 12, 2013)

THREEJAYS said:


> Earnestly seek and you will find. I couldn't add i don't think to what has already been said.


amen.
and I sure can't add to that.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 12, 2013)

I'll add one little thing. Do you know what kind of spiritual person you are? You probably have noticed we are not all the same. We all learn differently. My worship and prayer is both similar and disimilar to yours.

So, "How do you learn?" Do you learn from books, from doing, from lots of individual praying and contemplation or lots of communal prayer? Are you a person that stops sometimes, or are you an always on the go person?

Consider how you learn? What is you relationship with God now?

It is my opinion, and it is just an opinion, that God has made a pastor, a denomination, a christian community that is taylor made for you.

You know what your upbringing was like. You know the spiritual make ups of the people close to you, that you value, from family to politics. 

So if you are a round peg, don't frequent square hole church, find a round peg community. Otherwise you'll end up all banged up out of shape, worse off then when you started. Find a place that will let you be who you are...some things about you should never change... You have to accept this in yourself and other around you should as well.

---------------------------------

On a lighter note:

I have learned alot about what is thought in churches by how people dress in them. Where folks, dress for Sunday is more down to earth and a bit roughed up, the ministers sermon can't be too low or too high( off the word)---The meal has to feed just right... before, during and after the meal.

Plain dressing folk are usually not in it to impress or collect vanities...usually they are humble and know they are at a sharing table...( "In Christ we are a big family"--kind of folk.)

Or looked at in an other way.... 20% redneck-union clothes, 10% lawyer and life insurance, gobermint, realestate suits, 60 % clothes that were in fashion 15 yrs ago and 10 % tourists and folk that don't know how to dress period... is usually my kind of church.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 12, 2013)

gtparts said:


> The search may be long and arduous or short and sweet, but it is critical to take whatever time is necessary to be "rooted" in the most Christ-like church you can find.



I would echo this to the nth degree.  Do not be ashamed or afraid to walk out of or not go back to a Church if you feel their teachings don't align with scripture.  Unfortunately it's all to common.

P.S.  the book of Romans is considered the Constitution of Christianity.  I would suggest you read the Gospel of John then Romans in that order before anything else in the Bible.


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## Jeffriesw (Jul 15, 2013)

jerseycat9 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I have more or less been atheist for most of my life is how I guess I would describe it. Ive always been fearful of one little detail, what if Im wrong? Ive been looking but just never seemed to find the evidence I was looking for to believe whole heartedly in our lord.
> 
> ...



Terry, do you have a good Bible available? If not I would like to send you one if you will allow. You could read online, but I tend to find it distracting, so I stick with a print Bible.

Have you found a good Church yet? I looked on the map using the location you have listed, Oakwood. There is a really good Church just up the road from you in Cumming.
http://chalcedon.org/

Another good source is http://www.sermonaudio.com/main.asp

Please let me know if I can be  of help to you.

Bill J.


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## Bama4me (Jul 16, 2013)

Terry... will give you some advice that differs greatly from what you've received thus far. When choosing a church, make sure you choose a church that God approves of... not necessarily "the one you like".  Not every religious group that calls itself "the church" is a church that God approves of.  As you noted earlier, there are a lot of religious groups with varying beliefs out there - there's a reason for that.  God bless you as you pursue a relationship with Him - if I can help in any way, feel free to ask.


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## jerseycat9 (Jul 17, 2013)

I have aquired myself a good bible and a couple books to help explain what is meant by some of what I read that I do not understand. Still looking for the right church but I have a feeling that I will know it when I find it now.


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## Madman (Jul 17, 2013)

Jersey,

When you are alone, those quiet, intimate times, talking to God, what does He tell you about Himself, His son Jesus, and about yourself?

Seek truth.  He revealed Himself to me in a very personal way 18 years ago.  If you will come to Him with a "broken and contrite heart" he will reveal Himself to you also.



"What is truth?"
 Pontius Pilate


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## Bob2010 (Jul 17, 2013)

My wife and I went with friends to different churches.  Same deal where it just was not for me. We signed up for a marriage class on Wednesday nights at the church we now call home. Got us talking to people and connected.  Called the pastor and said I really am not all about church but lets sit down and talk. He was happy to take time to meet me. It started clicking because I was not just a visiting guest on Sunday anymore. Wife and I were baptized 2 years ago and life with him is far better than anything I have ever known. We have friends that will visit and try church after church.  Say they don't feel a connection or like they belong. But they never go to a small group or Wednesday class to meet people. If your like me God has been steering you towards Christ for a long time and you know it. Show up and see what happens. Can't hurt! Ill pray for you.


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## Jeffriesw (Jul 19, 2013)

Madman said:


> Jersey,
> 
> When you are alone, those quiet, intimate times, talking to God, what does He tell you about Himself, His son Jesus, and about yourself?
> 
> ...



A truly beautiful Psalm, Madman 

Psalm 51

1 Have mercy on me,a O God,
according to your steadfast love;
according to your abundant mercy
blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
and cleanse me from my sin!

3 For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against you, you only, have I sinned
and done what is evil in your sight,
so that you may be justified in your words
and blameless in your judgment.
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6 Behold, you delight in truth in the inward being,
and you teach me wisdom in the secret heart.

7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Let me hear joy and gladness;
let the bones that you have broken rejoice.
9 Hide your face from my sins,
and blot out all my iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God,
and renew a rightb spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from your presence,
and take not your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of your salvation,
and uphold me with a willing spirit.

13 Then I will teach transgressors your ways,
and sinners will return to you.
14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God,
O God of my salvation,
and my tongue will sing aloud of your righteousness.
15 O Lord, open my lips,
and my mouth will declare your praise.
16 For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it;
you will not be pleased with a burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.

18 Do good to Zion in your good pleasure;
build up the walls of Jerusalem;
19 then will you delight in right sacrifices,
in burnt offerings and whole burnt offerings;
then bulls will be offered on your altar.


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## Israel (Jul 20, 2013)

Madman said:


> Jersey,
> 
> When you are alone, those quiet, intimate times, talking to God, what does He tell you about Himself, His son Jesus, and about yourself?
> 
> ...


I think about Pontius Pilate.
I think about Herod.
I think about how "things" in the world that formerly had no use for one another, find an alliance forged when it comes to facing the Lord Jesus...all of a sudden men find a need for one another they had formerly eschewed. 
I see fear in men when beholding the one who is unimpressed, and unbowed, without reviling, by the authority in which they boast.
A false unity grows when confronted with the One who is One.
I see the Lord draw near.
I watch the world coming together.

And the chief priests and scribes stood and vehemently accused him. And Herod with his men of war set him at nothing, and mocked him, and arrayed him in a gorgeous robe, and sent him again to Pilate. And the same day Pilate and Herod were made friends together: for before they were at enmity between themselves.


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## BAR308 (Jul 21, 2013)

jerseycat9 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I have more or less been atheist for most of my life is how I guess I would describe it. Ive always been fearful of one little detail, what if Im wrong? Ive been looking but just never seemed to find the evidence I was looking for to believe whole heartedly in our lord.
> 
> ...



nowhere in the new testament do we find God telling anyone to ... "go to church". its not there. the closest we can get to that is Heb 10:25 which says not to forsake assembling with other saints. well that can be done anywhere. God has never told you to join a church. He told you to seek Him. please read Prov 2. we have to seek Him. our mission is to find Him in spirit and in truth. if we do... we will find salvation.

keep in mind a few things.... that God told us..

James 1:21
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

God never told us that a "church" can save us. He did tell us that the Word of God CAN....

so why believe the word of God is in the Bible?

http://www.letgodbetrue.com/bible/scripture/why-i-believe-the-bible.php

Acts 17:10-12
10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

God said that people who study the Scriptures are more noble than others who dont. 

going to church is a "death wish" if you pick the wrong one. the world is full of false teachers. you're far better off just studying the Word for yourself and finding His spirit... thats what can make you a child of God...


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## Ronnie T (Jul 22, 2013)

4.Acts 8:1 Saul was in hearty agreement with putting him to death. And on that day a great persecution began against the church in Jerusalem, and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles.

5.Acts 8:3 
But Saul began ravaging the church, entering house after house, and dragging off men and women, he would put them in prison.

6.Acts 9:31 
So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria enjoyed peace, being built up; and going on in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it continued to increase.

8.Acts 11:22 
The news about them reached the ears of the church at Jerusalem, and they sent Barnabas off to Antioch.

9.Acts 11:26 
and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. And for an entire year they met with the church and taught considerable numbers; and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.

10.Acts 12:1 
 Now about that time Herod the king laid hands on some who belonged to the church in order to mistreat them.

11.Acts 12:5 
So Peter was kept in the prison, but prayer for him was being made fervently by the church to God.

12.Acts 13:1 
Now there were at Antioch, in the church that was there, prophets and teachers: Barnabas, and Simeon who was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

13.Acts 14:23 
When they had appointed elders for them in every church, having prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed.

14.Acts 14:27 
When they had arrived and gathered the church together, they began to report all things that God had done with them and how He had opened a door of faith to the Gentiles.

15.Acts 15:3 
Therefore, being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and were bringing great joy to all the brethren.

16.Acts 15:4 
When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them.

17.Acts 15:22 
Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas—Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren,

18.Acts 15:41 
And he was traveling through Syria and Cilicia, strengthening the churches.

19.Acts 16:5 
So the churches were being strengthened in the faith, and were increasing in number daily.

20.Acts 18:22 
When he had landed at Caesarea, he went up and greeted the church, and went down to Antioch.

21.Acts 20:17 
From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called to him the elders of the church.

1 Thessalonians 1:1 
Paul and Silvanus and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

*Please read all of 1Cor 14.

*Most of the Bible was written, not to you, but to a church.  A local congregational church of the Lord's universal church.


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## Bama4me (Jul 22, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> 4.Acts 8:1 Saul was in hearty agreement with putting him to death. And on that day a great persecution began against the church in Jerusalem, and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles.
> 
> 5.Acts 8:3
> But Saul began ravaging the church, entering house after house, and dragging off men and women, he would put them in prison.
> ...



Good quotes... got to love the sentiment which says "one can have Christ but not the church".  True the church itself does not save, but it IS the saved.  And, as you have very clearly demonstrated, the church in the first century came together on a regular basis.  Thus, the idea of "going to an assembly of the church."


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## jerseycat9 (Jul 22, 2013)

I finally began praying and I must say that some of the things I have asked help with became almost instantly better. 

 I've also decided that I probably need to change my choice in music for the foreseeable future as well, I think it helps fuel the fire when the door to anger is already opened.

I also need to find a church outfit soon. What are the standards for church attire?


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## gemcgrew (Jul 22, 2013)

jerseycat9 said:


> What are the standards for church attire?


You are getting the cart before the horse. We must first address your haircut. Hair off the ears and off the collar.


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## jerseycat9 (Jul 22, 2013)

Oh no no hair is always cut and beard is trimmed 80% of the time even more so now. No heavy metal guy appearance here. Never could understand why people feel the need to look homeless because they listen to heavy music lol


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## gemcgrew (Jul 22, 2013)

jerseycat9 said:


> Oh no no hair is always cut and beard is trimmed 80% of the time even more so now.


Only 80%? Just stay home and study your Bible.


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## Ronnie T (Jul 22, 2013)

Two weeks ago a great friend of mine wore a white shirt and overalls to church.  He looked good.
.


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## BAR308 (Jul 22, 2013)

so which church? there are over 30,000 "flavors" of christianity out there... which one? of course Mr. Ron is gonna say his flavor of course is the right one.. and so on and so on with every other person out there. the verses you listed are speak of the local churches in those cities. they met in HOUSES. need i show you those verses? they never met in a large building with choirs, pastors, nuns, church "attire", pews, pulpits etc etc. they met in the homes of the people. now if Jersey wants to be true to the church... he'll find a home church and not one of these giant buildings on all the street corners. yall are about to turn this guy into a pew warmer instead of a disciple. churches make pew warmers... the word of god makes disciples.. Jesus is looking for disciples... not pew warmers. there is millions of those sitting on the pews every sunday morning... while the true saints are out there getting in the trenches to save the lost. God doesnt need another pew warming churchgoer. and also the "Church" is ekklesia or "called out ones"... its the body of Christ... is has nothing to do with churchianity churches on every street corner...


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## Bama4me (Jul 22, 2013)

BAR308 said:


> so which church? there are over 30,000 "flavors" of christianity out there... which one? of course Mr. Ron is gonna say his flavor of course is the right one.. and so on and so on with every other person out there. the verses you listed are speak of the local churches in those cities. they met in HOUSES. need i show you those verses? they never met in a large building with choirs, pastors, nuns, church "attire", pews, pulpits etc etc. they met in the homes of the people. now if Jersey wants to be true to the church... he'll find a home church and not one of these giant buildings on all the street corners. yall are about to turn this guy into a pew warmer instead of a disciple. churches make pew warmers... the word of god makes disciples.. Jesus is looking for disciples... not pew warmers. there is millions of those sitting on the pews every sunday morning... while the true saints are out there getting in the trenches to save the lost. God doesnt need another pew warming churchgoer. and also the "Church" is ekklesia or "called out ones"... its the body of Christ... is has nothing to do with churchianity churches on every street corner...



Don't you think you're painting with a very broad brush here when you claim that just because someone begins attending a church with a building that he/she will be "turned into a pew warmer"?  BTW, the very first church we read of in the NT didn't meet in a home - they met in the temple area.


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## centerpin fan (Jul 22, 2013)

BAR308 said:


> ... you're far better off just studying the Word for yourself and finding His spirit...



This idea is alien to the NT.


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## Jeffriesw (Jul 22, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> This idea is alien to the NT.



X's 2
Completely alien.


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## BAR308 (Jul 22, 2013)

here come the pharisees demanding 'church membership' for salvation (preferably there's, of course). haha. now i remember why i stay out of this forum. silly me...


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## centerpin fan (Jul 22, 2013)

BAR308 said:


> here come the pharisees demanding 'church membership' for salvation (preferably there's, of course)...



In the link you provided, they say to find a church like theirs:

http://www.letgodbetrue.com/welcome/faq/similar-churches.php


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## BAR308 (Jul 22, 2013)

your point?


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## Israel (Jul 22, 2013)

sometimes our zeal outstrips our hearing...


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## Ronnie T (Jul 22, 2013)

BAR308 said:


> so which church? there are over 30,000 "flavors" of christianity out there... which one? of course Mr. Ron is gonna say his flavor of course is the right one.. and so on and so on with every other person out there. the verses you listed are speak of the local churches in those cities. they met in HOUSES. need i show you those verses? they never met in a large building with choirs, pastors, nuns, church "attire", pews, pulpits etc etc. they met in the homes of the people. now if Jersey wants to be true to the church... he'll find a home church and not one of these giant buildings on all the street corners. yall are about to turn this guy into a pew warmer instead of a disciple. churches make pew warmers... the word of god makes disciples.. Jesus is looking for disciples... not pew warmers. there is millions of those sitting on the pews every sunday morning... while the true saints are out there getting in the trenches to save the lost. God doesnt need another pew warming churchgoer. and also the "Church" is ekklesia or "called out ones"... its the body of Christ... is has nothing to do with churchianity churches on every street corner...



And even more who are not sitting on a pew every Sunday morning.  70% of Americans claim to be "faithful" Christians.

They, like you, cannot sit at home, alone, studying their Bible and being good Christians.  I suggest your Christianity is more about you than it is about anything else.  

God has appointed some to be Preachers, teachers, elders, evangelists, deacons.  You could be valuable in one of those roles

Honestly, when's the last time you "came together" to participate in the Lord's supper as the 1st century church did?
.


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## centerpin fan (Jul 22, 2013)

BAR308 said:


> your point?



That you're being hypocritical.   You poke fun of people saying "come to our church":



BAR308 said:


> so which church? there are over 30,000 "flavors" of christianity out there... which one? of course Mr. Ron is gonna say his flavor of course is the right one.. and so on and so on with every other person out there...



... and then link to a site that says "come to our church".


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## BAR308 (Jul 22, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> That you're being hypocritical.   You poke fun of people saying "come to our church":
> 
> 
> 
> ... and then link to a site that says "come to our church".



i wasnt promoting the site. i was promoting the article. maybe you should read it and see the importance of the Word of God... i got news for you.. your church membership wont save you.


----------



## Ronnie T (Jul 22, 2013)

And how do you know no one of the early church came together in large groups?  It's very likely, and probable that they did.  Many met in homes, and I like the idea of that, but they were all organized biblically so that they worked together.  Together, as a body of many member, all working for one united goal.
.


----------



## BAR308 (Jul 22, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> And even more who are not sitting on a pew every Sunday morning.  70% of Americans claim to be "faithful" Christians.
> 
> They, like you, cannot sit at home, alone, studying their Bible and being good Christians.  I suggest your Christianity is more about you than it is about anything else.
> 
> ...




i do attend a church but my church membership doesnt save me like it does the pharisees. and i am an evangelist. i go out all the time witnessing. when was the last time you were in the streets spreading the gospel. and you never answered my question. which 'flavor' are you?


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 22, 2013)

BAR308 said:


> going to church is a "death wish" if you pick the wrong one.



I agree with your perspective on Church in most ways, but, it's only a death wish if you let it be.

Some folks are in church and have great experiences, because they go for what they put into it, not what they get out of it.

FWIW, I am not in church much these days.  I dabble, and have found a "good one," but I am not sure I am strong enough to let it be what it's supposed to be......which, actually, has nothing to do with myself.   I have a real pride issue.




BAR308 said:


> the world is full of false teachers.



Yes.



BAR308 said:


> you're far better off just studying the Word for yourself and finding His spirit... thats what can make you a child of God...



Maybe this doesn't work well for everybody.  I use this forum, and quite a few other personal resources (people, books, etc) to bounce my thoughts around with, and reflect on them.

I've been proven wrong a time or two in here.  It has been very healthy.  Same in church.  It's good to be able to keep one's pride in check.  Often, other people can see angles you yourself can't.  That is a good thing.


----------



## BAR308 (Jul 22, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> And how do you know no one of the early church came together in large groups?  It's very likely, and probable that they did.  Many met in homes, and I like the idea of that, but they were all organized biblically so that they worked together.  Together, as a body of many member, all working for one united goal.
> .



are you working with the catholics, coptics, lutherans, etc? if not than you are being hypocritical...


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 22, 2013)

BAR308 said:


> when was the last time you were in the streets spreading the gospel.



Are you a street preacher?


----------



## centerpin fan (Jul 22, 2013)

BAR308 said:


> i wasnt promoting the site. i was promoting the article. maybe you should read it and see the importance of the Word of God...



I'm already convinced of the importance of the Word of God.




BAR308 said:


> ... your church membership wont save you.



I agree, but "just me and my Bible" is not God's plan.


----------



## BAR308 (Jul 22, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> And how do you know no one of the early church came together in large groups?  It's very likely, and probable that they did.  Many met in homes, and I like the idea of that, but they were all organized biblically so that they worked together.  Together, as a body of many member, all working for one united goal.
> .



1 Corinthians 1:10
Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Mr. Ron are you speaking the same "words" as your catholic brother? what about your presbyterian? the answer is NO you are not... you denominational churches are to be AVOIDED! (Rom 16:17) at the command of Paul cause yall all have different gospels except the FAITH that was ONCE delivered to the saints...


----------



## jerseycat9 (Jul 22, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Only 80%? Just stay home and study your Bible.


What I meant by 80% is a slight stubble. Im clean shaven and of course would be freshly shaven on the day of church


----------



## gemcgrew (Jul 22, 2013)

BAR308, you have valid points. Most are going to be turned off by the "in your face" presentation. I kind of find it refreshing.


----------



## gemcgrew (Jul 22, 2013)

jerseycat9 said:


> What I meant by 80% is a slight stubble. Im clean shaven and of course would be freshly shaven on the day of church


Sounds like a future Baptist to me!


----------



## centerpin fan (Jul 22, 2013)

BAR308 said:


> i go out all the time witnessing. when was the last time you were in the streets spreading the gospel.




"Preach the gospel always.  If necessary use words." 

-- St. Francis of Assisi


----------



## BAR308 (Jul 22, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Are you a street preacher?



i would call it "open air" preacher... but yes, i go wherever the "lost" are at and point them to Jesus and His written word of God. the only church membership needed is the universal Church that is made up of all the saints... having nothing to do with the local churches membership which is just more bondage to mens organization.


----------



## Ronnie T (Jul 22, 2013)

I agree that he makes some valid points, but withdrawing to his back porch isn't an answer.
.


----------



## BAR308 (Jul 22, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> BAR308, you have valid points. Most are going to be turned off by the "in your face" presentation. I kind of find it refreshing.



i never turn anyone off... lol. 

all i am doing is trying to help jersey find Jesus in the word of God... thats where He is found... not buildings made with hands. anyway... just about time to run. i am starting to see folks get in line to throw stones...  lol


----------



## gemcgrew (Jul 22, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> I agree that he makes some valid points, but withdrawing to his back porch isn't an answer.
> .


Back porch? Sounds like he is on the front lines.


----------



## Ronnie T (Jul 22, 2013)

BAR308 said:


> i would call it "open air" preacher... but yes, i go wherever the "lost" are at and point them to Jesus and His written word of God. the only church membership needed is the universal Church that is made up of all the saints... having nothing to do with the local churches membership which is just more bondage to mens organization.



I'm glad the apostle Paul, Timothy, and Barnabas didn't feel that way.
.


----------



## BAR308 (Jul 22, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> I agree that he makes some valid points, but withdrawing to his back porch isn't an answer.
> .



i said i go to church. but it doesnt make me a christian. most modern day christians are thinking they will stand in front of Jesus on judgement day and will stand on their church membership for salvation... which is not possible. Jesus said we have to bare 30 or > fruit or we will be cast away... when was the last time you heard that preached in church? never.


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 22, 2013)

BAR308 said:


> i would call it "open air" preacher... but yes, i go wherever the "lost" are at and point them to Jesus and His written word of God.



I used to think street preachers were a joke.  After a life of seeing difficult things "inside church buildings" I now have a certain appreciation for the purity of the act.  The street preacher ahs nothing to gain from his actions.

I think it is much more noble to spread the gospel that way than to try and use the ballot box ("off-topic" point).  Regarless of the nobility, I still wonder about the effectivenss of the act.

But, if Gem is right, those who are meant to hear, will do so.


----------



## centerpin fan (Jul 22, 2013)

BAR308 said:


> i said i go to church.



So how is that different from this?



BAR308 said:


> ... having nothing to do with the local churches membership which is just more bondage to mens organization.


----------



## BAR308 (Jul 22, 2013)

church membership has nothing to do with salvation, unlike most churches teach. when a church teaches you must be a part of their "church" to be saved... its bondage. Jesus came to set us free from bondage not put under more. men (scholars, priests, "doctors") put the laity (common man) under bondage with their doctrines. if you dont belive this... you dont believe Jesus...

Matthew 23:15
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hades than yourselves.

Titus 1:10-11
10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

1 Timothy 4:1-3
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 22, 2013)

BAR308 said:


> church membership has nothing to do with salvation, unlike most churches teach. when a church teaches you must be a part of their "church" to be saved... its bondage.



How many churches actually do this?


----------



## centerpin fan (Jul 22, 2013)

BAR308 said:


> church membership has nothing to do with salvation ...



Agreed, but regularly worshipping with fellow believers is good for you.


----------



## gemcgrew (Jul 22, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> How many churches actually do this?


Who do you think you are? The "strawman" police?


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 22, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Who do you think you are? The "strawman" police?





Kind-a odd for me to find myself on the "Church" side of the debate in this forum.


----------



## centerpin fan (Jul 22, 2013)

BAR308 said:


> Matthew 23:15
> Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hades than yourselves.



You can't use the gospels.  That's "faith and works" doctrine and does not apply to Christians today.  You need to "rightly divide the word of truth".

Sorry.  Couldn't resist.


----------



## BAR308 (Jul 22, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Agreed, but regularly worshipping with fellow believers is good for you.



i am for it and do it all the time. but if you know anything about Christiainity.. you know that there are false churches... and for someone to tell jersey just to go out there and "pick one" could be leading him to a church that makes people twofold the son of hades. thats all i am saying.  Jesus said feed my sheep. well, feed "what" to 'who'? the apostles (all men of God) are to feed the babes in Christ the word of God. He never told anyone to join the xxx denominational church....


----------



## gemcgrew (Jul 22, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Kind-a odd for me to find myself on the "Church" side of the debate in this forum.


Hey JB, can you be a deacon?


----------



## centerpin fan (Jul 22, 2013)

BAR308 said:


> ... if you know anything about Christiainity.. you know that there are false churches...



Well, just list them so jersey won't make that mistake.


----------



## BAR308 (Jul 22, 2013)

haha... nice try.


----------



## jerseycat9 (Jul 22, 2013)

From what Ive understood of what Ive read in the bible growing up and at various times it makes clear that congregation is necessary.

 I am going to choose my place of congregation wisely and will give each its due course. I don't want to be lead into a situation where the teachings and fellowship are misleading or possibly false. For the time being I will continue to read and keep various "Proverbs" in my head and prayers.

I wasn't looking to make this thread such a competition of ideals and views I was looking for the personal preferences of individuals to maybe grasp something from.


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 22, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Hey JB, can you be a deacon?





Nah......I'm damaged goods....I recon I gotta keep that in mind


----------



## gemcgrew (Jul 22, 2013)

jerseycat9 said:


> From what Ive understood of what Ive read in the bible growing up and at various times it makes clear that congregation is necessary.
> 
> I am going to choose my place of congregation wisely and will give each its due course. I don't want to be lead into a situation where the teachings and fellowship are misleading or possibly false. For the time being I will continue to read and keep various "Proverbs" in my head and prayers.
> 
> I wasn't looking to make this thread such a competition of ideals and views I was looking for the personal preferences of individuals to maybe grasp something from.



If you desire to find a local church to attend, start visiting. Depending on where you live, it can be like crawling through a mile of sewer in search of a good biscuit. 

Just don't check your brains in at the door.


----------



## jerseycat9 (Jul 22, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Sounds like a future Baptist to me!



Not sure if that's a slite or not but at this time I'm on a couple medications that cause a multitude of side effects and exhaustion and fatigue are two of the many and I feel I've been doing a good job of keeping my appearance fresh despite.


----------



## gemcgrew (Jul 22, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Nah......I'm damaged goods....I recon I gotta keep that in mind



You and every man since the garden.


----------



## gemcgrew (Jul 22, 2013)

jerseycat9 said:


> Not sure if that's a slite or not but at this time I'm on a couple medications that cause a multitude of side effects and exhaustion and fatigue are two of the many and I feel I've been doing a good job of keeping my appearance fresh despite.


No slight, I'm Baptist. No endorsement either. If the preacher's wife hurries outside after service, in order to smoke, that is the place for me.


----------



## centerpin fan (Jul 22, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> I'm Baptist.



Are you a fan of James White?


----------



## gemcgrew (Jul 22, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Are you a fan of James White?


Never heard of him but I shall Google.


----------



## Ronnie T (Jul 22, 2013)

BAR308 said:


> i am for it and do it all the time. but if you know anything about Christiainity.. you know that there are false churches... and for someone to tell jersey just to go out there and "pick one" could be leading him to a church that makes people twofold the son of hades. thats all i am saying.  Jesus said feed my sheep. well, feed "what" to 'who'? the apostles (all men of God) are to feed the babes in Christ the word of God. He never told anyone to join the xxx denominational church....



Well, you've won me over!  

There is a problem.  The only real solution is to make it an individual solution.
Allow formal church association to serve the purpose that it can and does, but maintain your own individuality.
Stay away from the Calvinism/latest great teaching crowd.  Stay away from showboating church and churches that don't teach the entire Bible.

I believe I've found that in my local "flavor".  But flavors seem to get confused geographically.

The key is to insure your own discipleship.


----------



## Ronnie T (Jul 22, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> No slight, I'm Baptist. No endorsement either. If the preacher's wife hurries outside after service, in order to smoke, that is the place for me.



Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
.


----------



## gemcgrew (Jul 22, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Stay away from the Calvinism/latest great teaching crowd.


You tell him Ronnie. Arminianism only! If we can't save ourselves, nothing can.


----------



## Ronnie T (Jul 22, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> You tell him Ronnie. Arminianism only! If we can't save ourselves, nothing can.



Or Arminianism.

I don't know if this makes me stupid or something, but I know absolutely nothing about Arminianism.  I don't know if that's a man, a country, a doctrinal belief, or a Rx for gout.  Never studied it, never talked or debated it.

I don't have, and never have had a lot of interest in those things.
I'm occasionally called a "campbellite", but if he had any doctrinal views I'm not familiar with them.

I'm as pure as a young lamb.


----------



## Ronnie T (Jul 22, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> You tell him Ronnie. Arminianism only! If we can't save ourselves, nothing can.



And no one can save themselves.
.


----------



## centerpin fan (Jul 22, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Never heard of him but I shall Google.



He's a Reformed Baptist who does a lot of apologetics work.  Alpha and Omega Ministries is the name.


----------



## Bama4me (Jul 22, 2013)

BAR308 said:


> i do attend a church but my church membership doesnt save me like it does the pharisees. and i am an evangelist. i go out all the time witnessing. when was the last time you were in the streets spreading the gospel. and you never answered my question. which 'flavor' are you?



Part of your post is accurate - church membership cannot save a person.  A name on a church roll doesn't equate to being in the Lamb's book of life. However, there's a point that you seem to overlook - you can't be a faithful child of God and not be a part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

However, what I think you're saying is that you do not have to be identified with a local congregation in order to be right with God. Or, in other words, a child of God can "float" from one congregation to another... never being part of one of those groups.  While you might can make that case for itenerrent preachers, I don't believe you'll be able to make that case biblically for non-preachers.

BTW, regarding the fact that belonging to a local church places you "in bondage", God inspired Paul to tell the church members in Rome that they were "free" from sin. Their only bondage was not to the church - it was to The Lord (Romans 6:15ff).


----------



## gemcgrew (Jul 23, 2013)

jerseycat9 said:


> I am going to choose my place of congregation wisely and will give each its due course.


I think I found it for you. It looks as if they have plenty of room to grow. I don't think JB can be a deacon there either.


----------



## Israel (Jul 23, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> I think I found it for you. It looks as if they have plenty of room to grow. I don't think JB can be a deacon there either.



You may understand my reluctance to fall back upon christianese, but sometimes things cannot be said in any better way, and you sure don't want or need anymore of my explanations.


Can anyone say, "Plurality of elders?"


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 23, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> BAR308, you have valid points. Most are going to be turned off by the "in your face" presentation. I kind of find it refreshing.



I would agree. I've often thought about the division of the Churches.
On the other hand it would be better to associate with like believers. At some point you won't find like believers who believe everything you believe. 
You would do yourself a favor (seeker of the truth)to read the Bible without the influence of a Church denomination.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 23, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> I think I found it for you. It looks as if they have plenty of room to grow. I don't think JB can be a deacon there either.



I hope he had something in his water bottle to calm him down. I'd be afraid to be on a committee in his Church.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 23, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> How many churches actually do this?



Tell them you don't believe in the Trinity and you'll see.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 23, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> That you're being hypocritical.   You poke fun of people saying "come to our church":
> 
> 
> 
> ... and then link to a site that says "come to our church".



I thought it was "Satire."


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 23, 2013)

BAR308 said:


> so which church? there are over 30,000 "flavors" of christianity out there... which one? of course Mr. Ron is gonna say his flavor of course is the right one.. and so on and so on with every other person out there. the verses you listed are speak of the local churches in those cities. they met in HOUSES. need i show you those verses? they never met in a large building with choirs, pastors, nuns, church "attire", pews, pulpits etc etc. they met in the homes of the people. now if Jersey wants to be true to the church... he'll find a home church and not one of these giant buildings on all the street corners. yall are about to turn this guy into a pew warmer instead of a disciple. churches make pew warmers... the word of god makes disciples.. Jesus is looking for disciples... not pew warmers. there is millions of those sitting on the pews every sunday morning... while the true saints are out there getting in the trenches to save the lost. God doesnt need another pew warming churchgoer. and also the "Church" is ekklesia or "called out ones"... its the body of Christ... is has nothing to do with churchianity churches on every street corner...



Very good point on being a disciple first. Join Jesus' Church first, become a disciple and join a local Church if you want to.
This forum could be considered a synagogue. Since most early Christians were Jewish it's possible they met in Synagogues (buildings) until kicked out. I would assume meeting in houses would be ok with God.
Interesting article on Synagogues:

As Gentiles were added to the church, they often followed the Jewish traditions, and met in home synagogues as well. Not being Jewish, and due to persecution, they probably did not call their gathering a “synagogue” (Gk. sunēgogon, meaning “to assemble, gather together”) and went instead with the related term “ekklēsia” (“to assemble, come together”) which gets translated as “church.” Sometimes, when they outgrew homes, they met other gathering places, such as community educational centers (Acts 19:9). The issue was not where or when they met, but how and why. The purpose was always for teaching, encouragement, and the mutual edification of other believers. Buildings were not the goal or focus on the church gatherings.

http://www.tillhecomes.org/synagogue-church-building/


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 23, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> .....It looks as if they have plenty of room to grow.



No kidding. 



gemcgrew said:


> I don't think JB can be a deacon there either.



No, I don't think that fella'd let me in the doors.......


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 23, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Tell them you don't believe in the Trinity and you'll see.



That's a doctrinal difference (fwiw, I believe in the trinity).  The point was that very few churches say "membership required for salvation."

Most will say "membership beneficial to spiritual walk."  There is a difference.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 23, 2013)

I've noticed a lot of the Messianic Jewish Churches meet in homes. They like Proverbs 27:17 
Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend

That proverb could be used for any Christian helping another.

Here is a link to groups that meet in homes and buildings for fellowship:

http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/fello...ATE2=GA&action=search_1&category=1&page=0&pb=


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 23, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> That's a doctrinal difference (fwiw, I believe in the trinity).  The point was that very few churches say "membership required for salvation."
> 
> Most will say "membership beneficial to spiritual walk."  There is a difference.



But it is related to following their doctrine such as one of Election.


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 23, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> But it is related to following their doctrine such as one of Election.



Perhaps, but the point was relevant to membership.  And, you just tossed two hand-grenades in the thread 

Election and trinity should be restricted to their own threads, those two topics derail more good threads than anything else.

Might as well go ahead and say that masons are evil while we're at it


----------



## Madman (Jul 23, 2013)

jerseycat9 said:


> I also need to find a church outfit soon. What are the standards for church attire?



My maternal grandfather was a master carpenter.  When I stayed with him on Saturday night he would scrub the mud off his work boots and polish them.  Usually he would remind me that "God gives us His very best 365 days of the year, the least we can do is put on our best one day a week when we go to worship".  

My grandmother would iron his "Sunday" overalls, and white shirt.  On Sunday morning Pawpaw would put on the overalls, shirt, tie, and jacket.   

_Exodus 19:10  10 And the Lord said to Moses, “Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow. Have them wash their clothes 11 and be ready by the third day, because on that day the Lord will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people._

There is the standard.


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 23, 2013)

Madman said:


> My maternal grandfather was a master carpenter.  When I stayed with him on Saturday night he would scrub the mud off his work boots and polish them.  Usually he would remind me that "God gives us His very best 365 days of the year, the least we can do is put on our best one day a week when we go to worship".
> 
> My grandmother would iron his "Sunday" overalls, and white shirt.  On Sunday morning Pawpaw would put on the overalls, shirt, tie, and jacket.
> 
> ...



9 out of 10 churches I have visited over the last 5+ years have been such that the preacher would wear casual clothes.....I've seen plenty in jeans, shorts, t-shirts.  It's kind-a their "contemporary" badge of honor.


----------



## Madman (Jul 23, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> 9 out of 10 churches I have visited over the last 5+ years have been such that the preacher would wear casual clothes.....I've seen plenty in jeans, shorts, t-shirts.  It's kind-a their "contemporary" badge of honor.



I understand, but my priest doesn't wear jeans.  I wear a suit because it is my "very best" and I wear it for no man, I attend church for no man.

I wear my best, and go to church to corporately worship God.


----------



## gemcgrew (Jul 23, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> No, I don't think that fella'd let me in the doors.......


I think we both need to join that church. 

Bro. Underwood needs a break from his "most sorriest member, not worth 15 cents" position.

We can tell the preacher "you are the sorriest preacher we've ever heard, but you know that we love you".


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 23, 2013)

Madman said:


> I understand, but my priest doesn't.  I wear a suit because it is my "very best" and I wear it for no man, I attend church for no man.
> 
> I wear my best, and go to church to corporately worship God.



I understand.  And, there is nothing wrong with that.  If that's how it works for you, then I think you are doing a good thing.

Some people act symbollically.  Kind-a like the folks who stand up straight, and tall, and recite the "christian pledge of allegiance" in a manner of showing one's devotion.

For me, I think that God requires our best 24/7 (whatever your hands find to do......and, do as unto the Lord, type scriptures).  Since I rarely wear a tie, I would feel kind-a silly wearing one to church, as if, I was putting on a "look how religious I am" show.  But, I don't apply that standard to anyone but me.


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 23, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> I think we both need to join that church.
> 
> Bro. Underwood needs a break from his "most sorriest member, not worth 15 cents" position.



Now there's a title I might be qualified for


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 23, 2013)

My coworker goes to a Church where they wear casual clothes and eat breakfast snacks during the sermon!
That sounds like some of the "coffee houses I attended in the seventies:

From the 1960s through the mid-1980s, churches and individuals in the United States used the coffeehouse concept for outreach. They were often storefronts and had names like The Lost Coin (Greenwich Village), The Gathering Place (Riverside, CA), Catacomb Chapel (New York City), and Jesus For You (Buffalo, NY). Christian music (often guitar-based) was performed, coffee and food was provided, and Bible studies were convened as people of varying backgrounds gathered in a casual setting that was purposefully different than the traditional church. An out-of-print book, published by the ministry of David Wilkerson, titled, A Coffeehouse Manual, served as a guide for Christian coffeehouses, including a list of name suggestions for coffeehouses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee_house


----------



## gemcgrew (Jul 23, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> He's a Reformed Baptist who does a lot of apologetics work.  Alpha and Omega Ministries is the name.


I tend to shy away from the "Reformed" for a few reasons. Last night, I watched one of White's debates with an Arminian. In some aspects, it was like watching one Arminian argue with another.


----------



## Ronnie T (Jul 23, 2013)

Israel said:


> You may understand my reluctance to fall back upon christianese, but sometimes things cannot be said in any better way, and you sure don't want or need anymore of my explanations.
> 
> 
> Can anyone say, "Plurality of elders?"



Exactly what I was thinking.  Plurality of elders.  If that happens at my church, my rear end will be gone before the rest of the folks get through eatin their Sunday fried chicken.
And well I should be.

He might need to check his meds.
.


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 23, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Exactly what I was thinking.  Plurality of elders.



Churches I have been in.....the elders are the one's who get run out when they question the Head Pastor's authority and vision.  This fella would be given a free pass, in fact, the audience would be applauding his every rude word, and anybody who said otherwise would be a "naysayer" worthy of a swift kick in the britches on the way out the door.


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## Ronnie T (Jul 23, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> I tend to shy away from the "Reformed" for a few reasons. Last night, I watched one of White's debates with an Arminian. In some aspects, it was like watching one Arminian argue with another.



Is an Arminian from Arminia?
.


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## gemcgrew (Jul 23, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Is an Arminian from Arminia?
> .


No, an Armenian is from Armenia.


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## centerpin fan (Jul 23, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> I tend to shy away from the "Reformed" for a few reasons.



Interesting.  Care to elaborate (maybe in another thread)?

I used to hear White on the "Bible Answer Man" show with Hank Hannegraf.  I first saw him in a "KJV only" debate on the John Ankerberg show.  He had hair back then.


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## j_seph (Jul 23, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Get you a copy of Mere Christianity by CS Lewis.  It's 99 cents digitally.  It's  an easy read and is considered a classic with regards to what Christianity is about.  Its actually fun to read.  From there you need a good church.  There are a lot of good ones out there and some not so good ones. The first sign it is a good church is that it is growing and thriving.  Then Read the Bible and make sure what is being taught is accurate.


Make sure the church is growing and thriving for the right reasons though


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 23, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Is an Arminian from Arminia?
> .



Followers of the doctrine of Arminian follow the teachings of Jacobus Arminius.
Usually the opposite of Calvin. Most Churches are one or the other. To this day, Methodism and its offshoots (Pentecostals, the Holiness denominations, Charismatics, Seventh-day Adventists and Third Wave Charismatics) along with General Baptists usually subscribe to Arminianism, while Presbyterians, Reformed Churches, Reformed Baptists, and others subscribe to Calvinism.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 23, 2013)

Catholics, i'm not sure:
Before you can truly understand the differences between the Catholic and Arminian understanding of salvation, you must understand the fact that Catholicism teaches predestination. Where we primarily differ from Calvinism is in our understanding of the relationship between the number of those who are justified and the number of those who are predestined. Calvinists believe that all of the justified are numbered among the predestined and hence only the predestined will be justified. And hence all of the justified will persevere, which is the Calvinist doctrine known as perseverance of the saints. 

Catholics believe that all of the predestined will be justified, but not all of the justified are numbered among those who are predestined. That's because not all of the justified persevere to the end, as taught by Scripture (John 15:2, 6, 1 Timothy 1:19-20, Hebrews 6, 10:26-29). Since the Bible teaches that the predestined are assured glorification (Romans 8:29-30, John 10:28-29), then all those who lose lose their justification and die in that state cannot be numbered among the predestined. They were truly justified but were not numbered among the predestined. This is what is taught by the Bible, taught by Saint Augustine, and taught by the Catholic Church for nearly 2000 years


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 23, 2013)

So a new babe could get confused very easily. I believe in predestination and freewill. As usual I can't commit so I'm stuck in the middle.
A new believer will need to sit down and "rightly divide the truth" before choosing a Church. 
Sorry I couldn't resist either. 

As suggested earlier one could go visiting churches and let the Church choose you!


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## Israel (Jul 23, 2013)

uh...


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## Ronnie T (Jul 23, 2013)

My favorite so far.


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## Israel (Jul 23, 2013)

Ha!


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## ambush80 (Jul 24, 2013)

Joe, Carl and 'Mary" can talk to Jesus?


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## gemcgrew (Jul 24, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Joe, Carl and 'Mary" can talk to Jesus?


Within the context of what was provided, yes.


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