# Can a man who is divorced, stand behind the pulpit and preach?



## j_seph (Feb 3, 2020)

*Not *talking about a Pastor, The Pastor of a church?


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## Spineyman (Feb 3, 2020)

What are the qualification of Elder and Deacon and Overseer listed in the Scripture?


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## j_seph (Feb 3, 2020)

Spineyman said:


> What are the qualification of Elder and Deacon and Overseer listed in the Scripture?


However, a preacher is not an elder, nor a Deacon, nor an overseer.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Feb 3, 2020)

j_seph said:


> However, a preacher is not an elder, nor a Deacon, nor an overseer.



In many churches, the pastor also occupies the office of elder.  In this case, he should meet all the qualifications of elders.  In other churches, the senior pastor may have a role in overseeing elders and/or deacons.  In the case of overseeing elders and/or deacons, the pastor should (at a minimum) meet the same Biblical requirements of those he oversees.

If the role of pastor is different from above in a given church, then I would look more generally at the Biblical qualifications for ministry.  Is divorce a disqualifying factor for ministry?  I don't see that in Scripture.  However, remarriage in some cases constitutes adultery.  Someone in unrepentant ongoing adultery is disqualified from Christian ministry.  

The authority that appoints and/or approves the position of pastor has a duty to make sure that there are not unrepentant sins related to divorce, adultery, or remarriage.


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## NE GA Pappy (Feb 3, 2020)

Can a thief be the Pastor?

What about an ex Druggie?

Even a murderer?

Yet a lot of churches hold a divorce against a person, even if they weren't a professing christian at the time of the divorce.  Or even if they had biblical reasons for the divorce.  Yet a murderer who served a 30 years sentence, they would have no problems with because ' he was forgiven by the Lord, so we gotta forgive him too'

No equal treatment for the divorcee though.


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## Turpentine (Feb 3, 2020)

If the Lord calls your name, who are you to deny.


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## NCHillbilly (Feb 3, 2020)

There are many men standing behind the pulpit preaching every day who have molested children, cheated on their wives with hookers, and done any number of nasty things much worse than ending a bad, soul-crushing marriage. I don't hold a divorce against anybody. I've been through one, and I wouldn't have wanted to live without it. And I wasn't put on earth to judge other people.


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## srb (Feb 3, 2020)

I think that would be a tough road in some churches in the 40 50 60 70 80s..
Something started changeing in the 90s.....Now its that easy to say or do anything...Especially behind a pew....


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## SGADawg (Feb 3, 2020)

A pastor I greatly respect had this to say about divorce: 1. Scripture says  " husband of one wife". At the time of the writings of the Bible polygamy was common.  2. Scripture allowed divorce in the case of adultery.  If the wife is unfaithful and the man divorces her for this reason there should be no problem with his remarrying.  He is, by definition the husband of one wife.


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## j_seph (Feb 3, 2020)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> In many churches, the pastor also occupies the office of elder.  In this case, he should meet all the qualifications of elders.  In other churches, the senior pastor may have a role in overseeing elders and/or deacons.  In the case of overseeing elders and/or deacons, the pastor should (at a minimum) meet the same Biblical requirements of those he oversees.
> 
> If the role of pastor is different from above in a given church, then I would look more generally at the Biblical qualifications for ministry.  Is divorce a disqualifying factor for ministry?  I don't see that in Scripture.  However, remarriage in some cases constitutes adultery.  Someone in unrepentant ongoing adultery is disqualified from Christian ministry.
> 
> The authority that appoints and/or approves the position of pastor has a duty to make sure that there are not unrepentant sins related to divorce, adultery, or remarriage.


Not talking about Pastors see original post.


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## j_seph (Feb 3, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Can a thief be the Pastor?
> 
> What about an ex Druggie?
> 
> ...


Well stated, I agree


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Feb 3, 2020)

j_seph said:


> Not talking about Pastors see original post.



The awkward grammar made the OP ambiguous for me, but the main point remains the same - a past divorce is not the problem.  Ongoing, unrepentant sexual immorality would be a problem - for example, remarriage after a divorce that does not permit remarriage.  A man in an ongoing adulterous relationship should not stand behind the pulpit and preach.


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## Spotlite (Feb 4, 2020)

Ive heard the “one wife” explanation but .......Is she still your wife if you had biblical reasons to put her away and no longer “bound”........

If you’re still bound, are you free from it....


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## Madman (Feb 4, 2020)

Tough question.  Was the first marriage sacramental?  If it was and husband put his wife out then the church says no. There was a covenant made that the Christian cannot break.  If it was not sacramental then church may grant an annulment.  In essence the church must decide if the man and woman knew what they were doing spiritually, in the Sacrement of Matrimony.   Way over my pay grade.


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## Israel (Feb 4, 2020)

And unto the married I command, _yet_ not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from _her_ husband: But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to _her_ husband: and let not the husband put away _his_ wife.

But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such _cases_: but God hath called us to peace. For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save _thy_ husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save _thy_ wife?



Does it not seem to fall to the "believing one" to not depart? At least in the second section? But there seems an overlap, no? About departing and "putting away".

But the first section does not address that in particular...that is, who is, or may be believing and who is not. It is, as command, to be believed. So, is this correct....the "believing" woman should not leave her husband, but if she were to...she is to remain unmarried, or be reconciled? Likewise the believing man should not "put out/away" his wife.

In all, does it not appear the believing one is to bear more about this? But, why wouldn't this be so?


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## NE GA Pappy (Feb 4, 2020)

Israel said:


> For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such _cases_: but God hath called us to peace. For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save _thy_ husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save _thy_ wife?



now you are opening up a can of worms for sure.  I have often thought about and studied this scripture, and I have come up with some hard, hard conclusions about it.
I don't particularly like what I have concluded because of the responsibility it places on me.


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## NCHillbilly (Feb 4, 2020)

So,we are still bound to all this ancient Hebrew mumbo jumbo, except we can eat bacon and shrimp now and wear clothes made out of mixed fibers?


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## Israel (Feb 4, 2020)

NCHillbilly said:


> So,we are still bound to all this ancient Hebrew mumbo jumbo, except we can eat bacon and shrimp now and wear clothes made out of mixed fibers?




I am not sure what you mean, but I like your forthrightness.


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## NCHillbilly (Feb 4, 2020)

Israel said:


> I am not sure what you mean, but I like your forthrightness.


I'm talking about having heard all my life that Jesus freed us from being bound to Hebrew law, such as all the dietary restrictions and other weird admonishments that would be inconvenient to us, but people still use parts of it as they see fit, while ignoring the parts that don't fit into their lifestyle. EG, someone holding a pastor to an outmoded old Bible restriction against divorce, while wearing a suit made of mixed fibers to church, then going home and nomming on some unclean pork bbq.


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## BeerThirty (Feb 4, 2020)

Can a murderer be saved? This is the beautiful grace of God.

I prefer the pastors who have been through the struggles of real life, dealt with real sin, and have found salvation and use their testimony to desciple others. Like i've said in other posts...the best pastors I've seen are "real" people, not Bible thumpin, holier-than-thou judgemental individuals..


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 4, 2020)

NCHillbilly said:


> I'm talking about having heard all my life that Jesus freed us from being bound to Hebrew law, such as all the dietary restrictions and other weird admonishments that would be inconvenient to us, but people still use parts of it as they see fit, while ignoring the parts that don't fit into their lifestyle. EG, someone holding a pastor to an outmoded old Bible restriction against divorce, while wearing a suit made of mixed fibers to church, then going home and nomming on some unclean pork bbq.


I like how most Churches cast aside what Paul said about women's roles and place. This scriptural concept changed over time starting with the women's lib movement of the 60's.
Paul's role had God as the head of Christ and man as the head of woman. Equal yet different in roles perhaps but he spelled out those differences between man and woman. Things concerning hairs styles, clothes, and even women wearing gold and pearls.

But because our women got uppity, we let them do as they please. So individuals to pick and choose what to believe in based on societies changing ways.


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## Israel (Feb 4, 2020)

Maybe something to do with abhoring a vaccum?

If a man is reluctant to believe his place is his place for the sake of something else...?

Or refuses it...?

God help me.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 4, 2020)

NCHillbilly said:


> So,we are still bound to all this ancient Hebrew mumbo jumbo, except we can eat bacon and shrimp now and wear clothes made out of mixed fibers?


Some of those rules about marriage are New Testament. When two become one, God has joined them. No one is suppose to separate them. Marriage is a mirror of the whole Christ concept. Marriage was created by God to use as a mirror to show this concept. It's used in scripture to show this concept.

It shows the Trinity order, (the Son and the Spirit gladly submitting to the Father). It shows Christ and His bride. It mirror's Christ's love of his Church.
The things that make a marriage work, make our relationship with Christ work.


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## Spotlite (Feb 4, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> Some of those rules about marriage are New Testament. When two become one, God has joined them. No one is suppose to separate them. Marriage is a mirror of the whole Christ concept. Marriage was created by God to use as a mirror to show this concept. It's used in scripture to show this concept.
> 
> It shows the Trinity order, (the Son and the Spirit gladly submitting to the Father). It shows Christ and His bride. It mirror's Christ's love of his Church.
> The things that make a marriage work, make our relationship with Christ work.


What if it’s adultery in the wife’s part? Is he free to remarry and preach? Or is he still bound to the one wife that he had biblical reasons to put away? If he didn’t, is the church preaching OSAS - all sins, past, present and future are forgiven......what’s he guilty of while being already forgiven?


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 4, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> What if it’s adultery in the wife’s part? Is he free to remarry and preach? Or is he still bound to the one wife that he had biblical reasons to put away? If he didn’t, is the church preaching OSAS - all sins, past, present and future are forgiven......what’s he guilty of while being already forgiven?


The thing I don't understand about Christianity is if it's now spiritual, if the Laws were made to show us we couldn't keep them, if Christ died for that very reason?
Wouldn't it kind of be a slap in Christ's face?

Then add to that, if we are to still keep the laws, Jesus placed them on our heart so we no longer need them spelled out. Yet Paul shows up and loves to spell them all out. To include marriage and women.

Then add to that, if we are to keep the laws now tattooed on our hearts, it's not us doing it but the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

So if God sends one of us to Christ, he is given the Holy Spirit, to help us keep the laws Christ placed in our hearts. How well we keep these laws, which turns out to really be "love" in the form of fruit, is proof of the Holy Spirit's indwelling and thus proof of our salvation.

Salvation from not being able to keep the Laws. Which pointed our need of Christ all along.


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## j_seph (Feb 4, 2020)

My wife, as a Christian struggled with the divorce part. She grew up in church her entire life. She was taught that you do not divorce. Times got hard with abuse, physical and mental then her husband left and was living with another woman. She struggled hard with the DIVORCE word. One day a family friend, a Godly man, in fact a Pastor of a church stopped her one day. He asked her, do you think God intends, wants you to miserable. Do you believe God would want you living in this torment. Then he pointed out in the bible to her, Matthew 19:9 I believe it was "And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, *except [it be] for fornication*, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. "

Sort of funny how God's word provides an escape from such. Since this time, and I honestly believe it is Gods punishment. He has not been to church (said he was called to preach, did a few sermons and said this is not for me). He got remarried to girl he lived with, she divorced him took about everything he had, he has no home now and is staying in some harsh living conditions, has been arrested twice, and had some major term oil since. On a side note pray for him as he can use your prayers cause today he is not the man he was 20 years ago.


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## BeerThirty (Feb 4, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> The thing I don't understand about Christianity is if it's now spiritual, if the Laws were made to show us we couldn't keep them, if Christ died for that very reason?
> Wouldn't it kind of be a slap in Christ's face?
> 
> Then add to that, if we are to still keep the laws, Jesus placed them on our heart so we no longer need them spelled out. Yet Paul shows up and loves to spell them all out. To include marriage and women.
> ...



They key is that we are human are we sin. We cannot perfectly abide by rules.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 4, 2020)

j_seph said:


> My wife, as a Christian struggled with the divorce part. She grew up in church her entire life. She was taught that you do not divorce. Times got hard with abuse, physical and mental then her husband left and was living with another woman. She struggled hard with the DIVORCE word. One day a family friend, a Godly man, in fact a Pastor of a church stopped her one day. He asked her, do you think God intends, wants you to miserable. Do you believe God would want you living in this torment. Then he pointed out in the bible to her, Matthew 19:9 I believe it was "And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, *except [it be] for fornication*, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. "
> 
> Sort of funny how God's word provides an escape from such. Since this time, and I honestly believe it is Gods punishment. He has not been to church (said he was called to preach, did a few sermons and said this is not for me). He got remarried to girl he lived with, she divorced him took about everything he had, he has no home now and is staying in some harsh living conditions, has been arrested twice, and had some major term oil since. On a side note pray for him as he can use your prayers cause today he is not the man he was 20 years ago.


Why is Sexual Immorality the only reason given? Why wouldn't just the mental and physical abuse be enough? 

What if the husband never gave his wife the love she so yearned for?

Also why does this passage present it for the husband's perspective? The man being over his equal wife is as confusing as the marriage and divorce thing. 
The misogyny in the bible concerning divorce and other things? That Matthew's passage said nothing about the wife putting away her husband for sexual immorality.


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## NCHillbilly (Feb 4, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> Some of those rules about marriage are New Testament. When two become one, God has joined them. No one is suppose to separate them. Marriage is a mirror of the whole Christ concept. Marriage was created by God to use as a mirror to show this concept. It's used in scripture to show this concept.
> 
> It shows the Trinity order, (the Son and the Spirit gladly submitting to the Father). It shows Christ and His bride. It mirror's Christ's love of his Church.
> The things that make a marriage work, make our relationship with Christ work.


Any people who believe that and live by it, can live with my ex-wife for the rest of their lives.


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## Spotlite (Feb 4, 2020)

NCHillbilly said:


> Any people who believe that and live by it, can live with my ex-wife for the rest of their lives.


? ?


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Feb 4, 2020)

NCHillbilly said:


> So,we are still bound to all this ancient Hebrew mumbo jumbo, except we can eat bacon and shrimp now and wear clothes made out of mixed fibers?





NCHillbilly said:


> I'm talking about having heard all my life that Jesus freed us from being bound to Hebrew law, such as all the dietary restrictions and other weird admonishments that would be inconvenient to us, but people still use parts of it as they see fit, while ignoring the parts that don't fit into their lifestyle. EG, someone holding a pastor to an outmoded old Bible restriction against divorce, while wearing a suit made of mixed fibers to church, then going home and nomming on some unclean pork bbq.



The restrictions on divorce being discussed here are all in the New Testament.  Pass the bacon.  But pass on the adulterous preachers.


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## NCHillbilly (Feb 4, 2020)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> The restrictions on divorce being discussed here are all in the New Testament.  Pass the bacon.  But pass on the adulterous preachers.


Do you believe that a divorced preacher is adulterous? I don't. My definition of adultery is having sex with someone that you aren't married to, when you're married to someone else. If you are divorced from someone, you are not married to them any more. I reject most two-thousand year old foreign laws and rules that don't apply to our society, just as I don't take our own not-so-long ago laws and beliefs about charging your neighbor with witchcraft when your cow goes dry and such into consideration in my daily life.


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## Nicodemus (Feb 4, 2020)

The Lord forgives. Man, not so much, it seems.


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## j_seph (Feb 4, 2020)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> The restrictions on divorce being discussed here are all in the New Testament.  Pass the bacon.  But pass on the adulterous preachers.


So are you saying that a man who has been divorced, cannot preach?


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## dixiecutter (Feb 4, 2020)

It's a church by-law deal. Can he preach? Sure. Pulpit? Probably not, in most pulpits. Right or wrong? Not for me to say.


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## NCHillbilly (Feb 4, 2020)

Nicodemus said:


> The Lord forgives. Man, not so much, it seems.


Amen.


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## Spotlite (Feb 4, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why is Sexual Immorality the only reason given? Why wouldn't just the mental and physical abuse be enough?
> 
> What if the husband never gave his wife the love she so yearned for?
> 
> ...


I’ve learned a-lot studying this, this year. Dig real deep into the different types of infidelity. It’s more than than just a physical relationship with someone other than your spouse.


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## rattlesnake1 (Feb 4, 2020)

Any man the Lord has called can preach behind the pulpit.


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## Israel (Feb 5, 2020)

dixiecutter said:


> It's a church by-law deal. Can he preach? Sure. Pulpit? Probably not, in most pulpits. Right or wrong? Not for me to say.


I can appreciate that.

But, the by-law thing. Can it exist? Persist? If in what by name as "church", declares itself participating in the Lord's life?

Law is such an odd thing in principle and by nature. In all it implies a thing being made (subject to) by a thing greater in exercise over it.

I am thinking of our basic science lesson of having mass explained to us. "No" the prof says, "mass is constant, even though it 'sounds like' weight. 2 kilograms of iron is 2 kilograms of iron whether on the moon or on earth...even though on earth it actually also weighs...2 kilograms".

And it is not even that "the law" of gravity _changes on the moon, _so that what is measured on earth (as weight) that changes (or appears different on the moon) must be accounted for by a change in that law.

It's surely experienced (perceived?) as difference...so that we might even, if ignorant, think that the law changes...but we are convinced, if the moon were the "size" of the earth, that 2 kilos of iron (in mass) would _also weigh_ 2 kilos.

And I wonder if it is our _deciding to ascribe constancy_, to find it, identify it (or think we do, can, and have) and then describe laws about that constancy...is itself a law in us?

We know that "calling" it 2 kilograms of iron (and all the words I am using) are to us governed by even laws of language we accept...(becauseyoudonotlikemeeventypingthisway)

but_ are also convinced are altogether arbitrary._

When _we make a law_ it seems to have an inherent arbitrariness in its (to its?) expression.

We  could  as  easily  have  two  spaces  between  each  word.

Or     five.



What we want to say is "that much iron (_which is itself that much iron)_ is also itself...everywhere and at any time".

Or:

adsdjklghynfjhkDGJKsg,ndjturhgnkaosnfg

So, then, the by-laws thing.

It's like that thing of law that we (may) try to show "is in us" (is it?) by law, must show its residence by our expressing it. Which is...as we do it....(are we?) also manifesting _only _our arbitrariness in it.

I am _almost_ confused. Probably...by law.

PS: When I typed


> We  could  as  easily  have  two  spaces  between  each  word.


I put two spaces...as I also treated "or five" with 5 spaces. But when I submitted this, it did not "allow", obviously there is a _law_ in the software program...

I am thinking there's an angel with flaming sword "around" the law of the spirit of life in Jesus Christ...so that a thing that is itself...is itself...but if/when sought to be expressed as law...reveals a _self condemning_ arbitrariness/inconstancy.

It is what it is...unsubject....except to Him who is all unsubject.

And what is "of law" is revealed...by law. A thing is itself.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 5, 2020)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> The restrictions on divorce being discussed here are all in the New Testament.  Pass the bacon.  But pass on the adulterous preachers.


In relation to these restrictions being New Testament, should the Church still follow Paul on women's roles in the Church, society, and family? Concerning prayer, teaching, hair styles, dress, and gold & pearls?

I guess if marriage is given by God as an analogy to Christ and His Church, then women are a big part of that as well. It just seems like a part of the "everything" that society has changed.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Feb 5, 2020)

NCHillbilly said:


> Do you believe that a divorced preacher is adulterous? I don't. My definition of adultery is having sex with someone that you aren't married to, when you're married to someone else. If you are divorced from someone, you are not married to them any more. I reject most two-thousand year old foreign laws and rules that don't apply to our society, just as I don't take our own not-so-long ago laws and beliefs about charging your neighbor with witchcraft when your cow goes dry and such into consideration in my daily life.



Those who are followers of Jesus follow his teachings rather than the ideas of others, including ourselves.  Those who reject his teachings as "foreign laws and rules" probably should not call themselves Christians, since it clear they have rejected Jesus.  Jesus explained the circumstances in which divorce and remarriage would constitute adultery:

Matthew 19:8-9 8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.  I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”



j_seph said:


> So are you saying that a man who has been divorced, cannot preach?



As I have explained several times now, divorce does not disqualify a man from preaching.  Unrepentant adultery and sexual immorality do disqualify a man from preaching.



Nicodemus said:


> The Lord forgives. Man, not so much, it seems.



"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."  1 John 1:9

Has anyone said here that a sin that has been confessed and repented of disqualifies one from preaching?  Now, that may be a policy of some churches, but I can't recall anyone supporting that position in this thread.  
Further, it seems you are also confounding refusal to allow one to participate in certain ministries as failure to forgive.  Suppose a man is convicted of child molestation, does his time, repents, and becomes an upstanding member of our community.  Would you blame churches as "unforgiving" for being slow to let that man participate in children's ministry?


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## Rick Alexander (Feb 5, 2020)

From a more practical side - I belonged to a Baptist Church all through my elementary and high school years.  The church got much larger over those years and grew restless to hire a more "dynamic" preacher when the time came for the pastor I had always know to begin to think about retirement.  We got our man - guy out of Texas - absolutely gifted speaker and I believe a great teacher as well.  Well - within about 4 years pastor was caught being unfaithful to his wife with a married member and was fired.  When I left the church we were on about the 5th year of interim pastors and the church was dying a slow death - and with debts incurred after building a new sanctuary.  My point is this - would you want to risk the very life of a church family on anything less than the best possible candidate? A divorce man as a Preacher and a teacher - yes - Church 
pastor in charge of all things in a church family - I'm not too keen on that.


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## j_seph (Feb 5, 2020)

Rick Alexander said:


> From a more practical side - I belonged to a Baptist Church all through my elementary and high school years.  The church got much larger over those years and grew restless to hire a more "dynamic" preacher when the time came for the pastor I had always know to begin to think about retirement.  We got our man - guy out of Texas - absolutely gifted speaker and I believe a great teacher as well.  Well - within about 4 years pastor was caught being unfaithful to his wife with a married member and was fired.  When I left the church we were on about the 5th year of interim pastors and the church was dying a slow death - and with debts incurred after building a new sanctuary.  My point is this - would you want to risk the very life of a church family on anything less than the best possible candidate? A divorce man as a Preacher and a teacher - yes - Church
> pastor in charge of all things in a church family - I'm not too keen on that.


Bible talks about Bishops only having one wife and that is a Pastor and I agree. Here is a difference in our Pastor and how we got ours. Our Pastor at the time said the Lord had let him know that his season their was done. He left, no hard feelings at all from anyone as he was only being obedient. Through about a year we continued on with those called to preach in our congregation bringing the messages. Might be a different one every service, might be the same one 2 or 3 services. Either way we still had 3 services a week. We did not go looking to hire anyone, we as a church began to pray that God would send us who we needed not wanted. Through prayer we ended up with one person on our heart, the Deacons went to his house, they had not spoken to him about this prior. They got there and he already knew why they had come and what he needed to do and without hesitation became our Pastor. He doesn't preach for the money, or for the reputation but for God.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 5, 2020)

Rick Alexander said:


> From a more practical side - I belonged to a Baptist Church all through my elementary and high school years.  The church got much larger over those years and grew restless to hire a more "dynamic" preacher when the time came for the pastor I had always know to begin to think about retirement.  We got our man - guy out of Texas - absolutely gifted speaker and I believe a great teacher as well.  Well - within about 4 years pastor was caught being unfaithful to his wife with a married member and was fired.  When I left the church we were on about the 5th year of interim pastors and the church was dying a slow death - and with debts incurred after building a new sanctuary.  My point is this - would you want to risk the very life of a church family on anything less than the best possible candidate? A divorce man as a Preacher and a teacher - yes - Church
> pastor in charge of all things in a church family - I'm not too keen on that.


Was that new preacher from Texas divorced?


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## Nicodemus (Feb 5, 2020)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Those who are followers of Jesus follow his teachings rather than the ideas of others, including ourselves.  Those who reject his teachings as "foreign laws and rules" probably should not call themselves Christians, since it clear they have rejected Jesus.  Jesus explained the circumstances in which divorce and remarriage would constitute adultery:
> 
> Matthew 19:8-9 8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.  I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
> 
> ...




In my opinion, if a man is convicted of child molestation, he should be made to kneel, and shot in the back of the head. That would solve that problem once and for all. Oh, forgive him first, then kill him.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 5, 2020)

I've known divorced individuals who have had wonderful long marriages after their first one or two ended in divorce. I've known some that committed adultery in those marriages that never committed adultery in their newer marriage. 

Maybe they matured, maybe they learned, maybe they discovered love and commitment or something that may have been missing.

I wouldn't hold a previous sin against the present man. Reminds me of that Supreme Court Judge's past transgressions in his younger days.


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## Madman (Feb 6, 2020)

The church does not see divorce as just a sin, Holy Matrimony s seen as a life long commitment that a man and woman make to each other with God as their witness, it is a covenant.   If a man and woman were joined in the sacramental covenant of Holy Matrimony, each one fully capable of making the commitment then nothing on earth can break it. 

Therefore in a sacramental marriage there can be no dissolving of the union, a man and woman can separate, but if they remarry it is seen as polygamy.


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## Madman (Feb 6, 2020)

In some cases the church will allow an annulment which simply means the couple did not have a sacramental marriage, for instance, neither were baptised or christian and went to the justice of the peace for a civil marriage.  If one later comes to Christ, then an annulment may be granted.

There may have been other extenuating circumstances that the church views as preventing a sacramental marriage.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Feb 6, 2020)

Those who are considering standing behind the pulpit should consider:

James 3:1 "Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly."

Teaching and preaching are word ministries, so even though everyone bringing these word ministries may not be a pastor or elder, there should be some scrutiny regarding how well their lives align with New Testament instructions.  Since serving on a worship team is also a word ministry, I encouraged members of the team I lead to compare their lives carefully with the requirements described in Ephesians 5.






There is also a place for the hearers of teaching and preaching to evaluate the character of the speaker before imitating their faith.

Hebrews 13:7  "Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith."

As it happens, both the pastors at the Cowboy Church had been divorced decades before I met them.  But looking at their lives since they repented and turned to Christ gave evidence of lots of good fruit.  Since Scripture says, "If anyone is in Christ he is a new creation, behold, the old has gone the new has come" it is not my practice to be overly concerned with past sins if there is ample evidence of repentance.  I wouldn't put past divorce or past sins related to divorce in a special category needing greater scrutiny or having some special status as disqualifying from certain ministries.


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## Madman (Feb 6, 2020)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> There is also a place for the hearers of teaching and preaching to evaluate the character of the speaker before imitating their faith.



In 1 Timothy 5 is reminding Timothy what a priest of a congregation should be doing.  It is interesting in verse 22 Paul is admonishing Timothy to not be quick in the "laying on of hands" in other words be very careful about ordaining.


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## NCHillbilly (Feb 6, 2020)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Further, it seems you are also confounding refusal to allow one to participate in certain ministries as failure to forgive.  Suppose a man is convicted of child molestation, does his time, repents, and becomes an upstanding member of our community.  Would you blame churches as "unforgiving" for being slow to let that man participate in children's ministry?


You are actually comparing someone who has been divorced to a child molester? Boy, I 'm glad you ain't the Lord.


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## Milkman (Feb 6, 2020)

Why is a minister/preacher held to a different standard?

If being divorced is a sin just add it to the other 100 million He/she is forgiven for.


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## j_seph (Feb 6, 2020)

Milkman said:


> Why is a minister/preacher held to a different standard?
> 
> If being divorced is a sin just add it to the other 100 million He/she is forgiven for.


What I have seen is there are some churches that will not allow a man to stand and preach if he has been divorced where others do. Seems some have Bishop in bible confused with preacher vs. pastor. According to scripture it is a bishop


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## Rick Alexander (Feb 6, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> Was that new preacher from Texas divorced?


No - my point wasn't that they made a mistake hiring him - it was the damage done when he was unfaithful.  A divorcee in my opinion isn't nearly as worried about a 2nd divorce as he was that first one.  Why risk it.


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 19, 2020)

j_seph said:


> *Not *talking about a Pastor, The Pastor of a church?



A very simple answer..... if God calls him.

Moses was a murderer, before he was called.  Paul was a murderer, before he was called.  Peter was a vile fisherman, before he was called.  Jacob was a liar and a thief.
Everyone was something, before they were called.  When God calls, you answer.  He will do the rest.  

I know of a pastor who was relieved of his duties just recently because his wife became wayward and filed for divorce.  No fault of his own, but the Church felt he couldn't represent them.  Soooo the guy lost his wife and his job (with 2 kids to support), the church lost it's way, if it ever had one, which I question.  The calling stands.  God is not confused by such 'high righteousness' and he doesn't make mistakes.   JMHO.


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 19, 2020)

This subject is a prime example of people placing their UNDERSTANDING/INTERPRETATION of scripture above the will of God.  God's will is God's will, and it's not subservient to our measly interpretation of what we think scripture says.  One would be wise to remember that Christ was crucified using the same presumption.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Feb 19, 2020)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I know of a pastor who was relieved of his duties just recently because his wife became wayward and filed for divorce.  No fault of his own, but the Church felt he couldn't represent them.



The job of every Christian minister is to represent the Lord who has transformed their life.  Their job is not to represent a group of people who may or may not have been transformed.  "No man can serve two masters."

Or as God said to Jeremiah, "Let these people turn to you, but you must not turn to them."


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## glynr329 (Feb 19, 2020)

And people wonder why Church attendance is decreasing.


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## Spotlite (Feb 19, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> I wouldn't hold a previous sin against the present man. Reminds me of that Supreme Court Judge's past transgressions in his younger days.


That’s almost like asking what sin are you guilty of that’s been forgiven.......I mean who can bring it up....


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## king killer delete (Feb 19, 2020)

If I could have had my first wife stoned I would have but that was wrong. My first wife ran around and did everything vile that she could. Now before you judge me for getting divorced I believe it was Gods plan for me. Five years after I got rid of that pagan that I had married the first time I got a good woman. October the 11th we will have been married for 40 years.


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## NE GA Pappy (Feb 19, 2020)

Milkman said:


> Why is a minister/preacher held to a different standard?
> 
> If being divorced is a sin just add it to the other 100 million He/she is forgiven for.



mostly because the Bible lays out a different standard for being a pastor, just as it does for deacons.


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## groundhawg (Feb 19, 2020)

Madman said:


> The church .



Please advise who, what is "the church".
Thanks.


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## JB0704 (Feb 19, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> mostly because the Bible lays out a different standard for being a pastor, just as it does for deacons.



Where are those standards?  I’ve always held that “head pastor” is not a biblical title.


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## j_seph (Feb 19, 2020)

JB0704 said:


> Where are those standards?  I’ve always held that “head pastor” is not a biblical title.


Seek out Bishop in bible


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## JB0704 (Feb 19, 2020)

j_seph said:


> Seek out Bishop in bible



Regional title.  Not over a local church.  Plus, they called it bishop, most denominations don’t recognize this title due to the modern church being isolated to a local congregation.


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## JB0704 (Feb 19, 2020)

There was no “head pastor” of local congregations in the Bible.  Local bodies were led by elders and served by deacons.  The modern church looks nothing like what they had.

And “husband of one wife” is ambiguous at best, but can logically be viewed as “not a polygamist.”  If they didn’t want divorcees why didn’t the Bible make that clear?  Husband of one wife seems pretty dang clear to me.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 19, 2020)

Does a Bishop have to be married? Was Paul a "one woman man?"
I would agree it's about polygamy and not divorce. 
Maybe Paul figured they'd be too tired to oversee all the churches in his district if he had more than one wife.


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## NE GA Pappy (Feb 20, 2020)

JB0704 said:


> There was no “head pastor” of local congregations in the Bible.  Local bodies were led by elders and served by deacons.  The modern church looks nothing like what they had.
> 
> And “husband of one wife” is ambiguous at best, but can logically be viewed as “not a polygamist.”  If they didn’t want divorcees why didn’t the Bible make that clear?  Husband of one wife seems pretty dang clear to me.



yep, lots of people interpret it to mean no polygamy.  I tend to fall on that side of the meaning myself.   There were many who had multiple wifes back in that day, and I am sure that could have been one possible meaning of the words.

I don't have a problem with a person being divorced and preaching, if that divorce wasn't because of the one wanting to preach cheating on their spouse, after they became a christian.  If all that happened pre-salvation,... well, we all sinned.  If it happened post-salvation.... have they repented and show me their good fruits.

I can't hold a non-christian to that teaching.  If I did, I would have to make sure they were drunkards, adulters, and a whole list of other sins before they repented.  It just doesn't make any sense to even go there.


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## JB0704 (Feb 20, 2020)

BEen quite a few years since I spent some time in here.  I guess some thread titles are good at pulling folks in


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## j_seph (Feb 20, 2020)

JB0704 said:


> Regional title.  Not over a local church.  Plus, they called it bishop, most denominations don’t recognize this title due to the modern church being isolated to a local congregation.


Bishop is a leader of a church.


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## Milkman (Feb 20, 2020)

j_seph said:


> Bishop is a leader of a church.



Church being a single congregation?

In most denominations Bishop is a title given someone over a large area of churches isn’t it?


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## JB0704 (Feb 20, 2020)

j_seph said:


> Bishop is a leader of a church.



HE was a regional director coordinating between several local bodies.  I did some googlin' last night........folks try to make this person the "head pastor" but he wasn't.


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## JB0704 (Feb 20, 2020)

Milkman said:


> Church being a single congregation?
> 
> In most denominations Bishop is a title given someone over a large area of churches isn’t it?



As it was in the Bible as well.

And, to that, if the Biblical title for pastor is Bishop, why do we call bishops pastors?

There were elders leading local congregations in the NT.  That church was a lot more than a Sunday morning gathering.  It was a community.  And, the best I can tell is that the "head pastor" was and remains Jesus.


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## JB0704 (Feb 20, 2020)

Lets say Bishop is what we refer to as the head pastor these days, the point remains........"husband of one wife" does not necessarily mean "never divorced and remarried."  If the Bible detailed two situations where a divorce was justified, why would it turn around and punish folks who took such actions?  It's basically like saying "you are forgiven for your ex spouse' actions, but you will still gotta pay for it."


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## Israel (Feb 20, 2020)

Who "wants" to be behind a pulpit, anyway? Or is it just the notion of being possibly denied that provokes the desire? There are plenty of soap boxes to go round.

No, I will be more plain.

The  seeming "allowance of the pulpit" indicates an approval, an acceptance by those "in front of the pulpit's" authority to confer a legitimacy of speaking to the one "behind". In short "the pulpit" is given to the one "allowed" to address the congregation.


Some of this stuff is too good to be made up.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 20, 2020)

JB0704 said:


> Lets say Bishop is what we refer to as the head pastor these days, the point remains........"husband of one wife" does not necessarily mean "never divorced and remarried."  If the Bible detailed two situations where a divorce was justified, why would it turn around and punish folks who took such actions?  It's basically like saying "you are forgiven for your ex spouse' actions, but you will still gotta pay for it."


Also if the wife died, he would no longer be the husband of one wife.


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## JB0704 (Feb 20, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> Also if the wife died, he would no longer be the husband of one wife.



Most folks I’ve ever met seem to think that’s ok, just not divorcees.  Amazing how folks see what they wanna see in all aspects of life


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## JB0704 (Feb 20, 2020)

Israel said:


> Who "wants" to be behind a pulpit, anyway? Or is it just the notion of being possibly denied that provokes the desire? There are plenty of soap boxes to go round.
> 
> No, I will be more plain.
> 
> ...



Not sure what ur getting at, but lots of churches today are “planted” by a guy who claims a calling and heavenly ordination to be a head pastor to a local congregation which doesn’t yet exist.  And when it works out all the rights and authority implied by such title.  I just don’t see that in the New Testament.


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 20, 2020)

JB0704 said:


> "you are forgiven for your ex spouse' actions, but you will still gotta pay for it."



So now you’re saying it’s like child support....?


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## JB0704 (Feb 20, 2020)

SemperFiDawg said:


> So now you’re saying it’s like child support....?



Lol, if I ruled the world cheaters wouldn’t get the kids......child support laws are a bit out of context.......and for about  5 years I was a single dad in my early-mid 20s raising a son by myself having been left by a non believer getting judged by “hard liners” for not being able to make her stay.  She sold me custody for $3600.  That’s how worthless a person she was.  Yet, I got to be marked for it even though I took on the single dad deal n never tried to get out of my vows.  He’s in college now, doing good, 4.0, very involved in campus church ministries, and thanks me regularly for marrying my 2nd wife because that allowed him to have a “real mom.”


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## Madman (Feb 20, 2020)

groundhawg said:


> Please advise who, what is "the church".
> Thanks.


The church is the unified body of believers, together who participate in the sacraments and give themselves to the teaching of the Holy Scriptures and the teaching of the Apostles, just as our Lord prayed,  “that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me” (John 17:21)

We are not there yet.   The ancient creed says "one holy, catholic, and apostolic".

What say you?


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## Israel (Feb 22, 2020)

JB0704 said:


> Not sure what ur getting at, but lots of churches today are “planted” by a guy who claims a calling and heavenly ordination to be a head pastor to a local congregation which doesn’t yet exist.  And when it works out all the rights and authority implied by such title.  I just don’t see that in the New Testament.



I suppose what I'm "getting at" (or hoping to) is the root of the question as I see it:

"Who gets to do...what?" (Or...who can't)

and, whether any man has any ability in establishing his own authority to do so.

_For the Son of man is_ as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

What is _of Christ_ will "occupy till I come"...what is not, cannot.


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