# Did Jesus or Peter eat unclean food?



## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 25, 2019)

Do you believe that Jesus ate food that was biblically 'unclean', and taught others that they, too, could eat it?   (Porkchops, Shrimp, BLTs, Frog legs, etc)


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 25, 2019)

Wasn't Jesus born under the Law? Wouldn't he have to wait until he died to change things?

I guess it all boils down to if he died to do away with the Law or the dogma.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 25, 2019)

lol      Not eating porkchops =  God's commands.      Not being able to eat food with dirty hands and in dirty dishes = Pharisee dogma


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 31, 2019)

Ok...since no one wants to discuss this I'll go ahead and give you my 2 cents worth....

Most Christians love to point at Peter's Vision in Acts 10 as proof that God said we could eat unclean food.    I say that Peter's Vision is THE BEST PROOF that God does not want us to eat unclean food!    Here's why...

1)  If Jesus had actually EVER taught people that they could now eat anything, then they would have used it against Him at His trial but, alas, THEY COULD FIND NO FAULT WITH HIM (when it came to the Law)
2)  If Jesus had actually EVER taught people that they could now eat anything, including porkchops and BLT sandwiches, then Jesus' righthand man, Peter, would have heard Him teaching it and saw Him eating it but, YEARS after Jesus had ascended, Peter could still not even imagine eating something unclean!!!  (as evidenced by his reply to the request to Kill and Eat)    Eating unclean food was the furthest thing from his mind.
3)   Peter explains the vision TWICE, and he never once mentions food, because he understood the vision to be only about people, who God had NEVER EVER declared unclean.   No man, made in the image of God, anywhere in the world, no race or nation, had ever been declared unclean by God.   It was only the Pharisees that had taught the Jews that anyone other than Jews (especially anyone from the dispersed Northern tribes who God had divorced) made you unclean to be around them.    That was Pharisee dogma, not God's commandment.   Peter understood that some animals had been declared as unclean food, but not any man!


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 31, 2019)

ekatharisen; to cleanse

Acts 10:15
The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean."

I can see your interpretation as being nations in Peter's vision.

I would assume most Christians see it as food. Which makes me ask, was there ever a time when there was "unclean" food on the earth?
If it was so, how did God suddenly clean all of the unclean food? 

I would assume the Cross cleaned all of the unclean in Peter's vision. If food, did the Cross clean unclean food?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 31, 2019)

Unclean animals have a God-given purpose the earth; to clean it of garbage...like pigs and catfish do.    there has always been unclean animals on the earth from the beginning, and God's people knew it.    Noah was told to bring 7 pairs of clean animals on the Ark, as compared to a pair of unclean, so Noah knew the difference between unclean and clean animals then. 

God does not change.   There has never been a commandment of God that He decided was no longer needed.   The Law was perfect and was eternal (until heaven and earth passed away, per Jesus)   Not one jot or tittle would pass from it, and men were not supposed to add to it or take away from it.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 31, 2019)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Unclean animals have a God-given purpose the earth; to clean it of garbage...like pigs and catfish do.    there has always been unclean animals on the earth from the beginning, and God's people knew it.    Noah was told to bring 7 pairs of clean animals on the Ark, as compared to a pair of unclean, so Noah knew the difference between unclean and clean animals then.
> 
> God does not change.   There has never been a commandment of God that He decided was no longer needed.   The Law was perfect and was eternal (until heaven and earth passed away, per Jesus)   Not one jot or tittle would pass from it, and men were not supposed to add to it or take away from it.



Not even Love? Love didn't change anything?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 31, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> Not even Love? Love didn't change anything?



?????    Are you asking if love changed God's commandments, brother?    God commendeth His love towards us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.         That changed a lot....but His commands were forever.    Since Christ's death, those who accept His sacrifice no longer have to fear the punishment of failing....   but purposeful willful sin is still not ignored.   Hebrews 10:26  I Cor 5  etc etc


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 31, 2019)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Unclean animals have a God-given purpose the earth; to clean it of garbage...like pigs and catfish do.    there has always been unclean animals on the earth from the beginning, and God's people knew it.    Noah was told to bring 7 pairs of clean animals on the Ark, as compared to a pair of unclean, so Noah knew the difference between unclean and clean animals then.
> 
> God does not change.   There has never been a commandment of God that He decided was no longer needed.   The Law was perfect and was eternal (until heaven and earth passed away, per Jesus)   Not one jot or tittle would pass from it, and men were not supposed to add to it or take away from it.



Does that mean we'll have to follow those commands for eternity? If eternity, why would they end when Heaven and Earth pass? 
Eternity is longer than when the earth and it's atmosphere is gone.

Is it possible the earth has already pass? Perhaps it never will. It may be eternal as with the Law.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 31, 2019)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> ?????    Are you asking if love changed God's commandments, brother?    God commendeth His love towards us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.         That changed a lot....but His commands were forever.    Since Christ's death, those who accept His sacrifice no longer have to fear the punishment of failing....   but purposeful willful sin is still not ignored.   Hebrews 10:26  I Cor 5  etc etc



I was offered on another thread that perhaps Love changes how we view God's commands. That love may conquer all. That from a certain perspective, the Love of God in the gift of His Son removed those commandments.

That maybe now, through Love, we no longer need those commands to guide us in loving others and God.

Maybe in some way, God's love of his Son, was imputed to us and through us. That we now have this love within us as a way of no longer needing the commandments.

So if we accept this Love from God, through His Son, we can now live using love instead of commandments. 

I don't see this as what Paul is teaching us but many do. I guess I can see both sides. The Love part and the commandment part.

I'm just not real sure exactly what the Love part replaced or fulfilled.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 31, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> Does that mean we'll have to follow those commands for eternity? If eternity, why would they end when Heaven and Earth pass?
> Eternity is longer than when the earth and it's atmosphere is gone.
> 
> Is it possible the earth has already pass? Perhaps it never will. It may be eternal as with the Law.



You're startin' to scare me      In Deuteronomy,  Heaven and Earth were the witnesses of the eternal covenant.   As long as they exist, the covenant is valid.   Not sure how/if things will change after the millennial reign.    What Revelation does say,  though, is that only those who keeps God's commandments will enter THE BRIDE, the New Jerusalem



Artfuldodger said:


> I was offered on another thread that perhaps Love changes how we view God's commands. That love may conquer all. That from a certain perspective, the Love of God in the gift of His Son removed those commandments.
> 
> That maybe now, through Love, we no longer need those commands to guide us in loving others and God.



Modern Christians need to tell the apostle John that.....and Paul....and our Messiah, who repeatedly asked us to 'keep my commandments".    "Time is the ally of deceit"    You have to admit, what standard churchianity presents today is nothing like what we read of 30 years after Jesus ascended in Acts

Acts 21

*20*  And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

*21*  And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.  (Churches still propagate this lie today)

*22*  What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

*23*  Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

*24*  Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also WALKEST ORDERLY, and KEEPEST THE LAW.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 31, 2019)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> You're startin' to scare me      In Deuteronomy,  Heaven and Earth were the witnesses of the eternal covenant.   As long as they exist, the covenant is valid.   Not sure how/if things will change after the millennial reign.    What Revelation does say,  though, is that only those who keeps God's commandments will enter THE BRIDE, the New Jerusalem
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just presenting perspectives as other brothers have shared with us on this forum. Not necessarily the views of myself but perhaps if we view all the variations, we can learn from it and strengthen our own beliefs.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 31, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> Just presenting perspectives as other brothers have shared with us on this forum. Not necessarily the views of myself but perhaps if we view all the variations, we can learn from it and strengthen our own beliefs.


Always a good thing!


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## StriperAddict (Feb 1, 2019)

The rules and the Law is an impossibility, but that's the whole point.  It doesn't have power to clean us on the inside like the One final sacrifice can, because it cannot "make men perfect, but bringing in a better hope DID" (Heb). Romans says we died to the law by the body of Christ. Why? Because law revives sin, where grace gives us the power to live godly.  

With that, I'll take both my justification in Christ with a pork sloppy Joe.


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## Israel (Feb 1, 2019)

It's odd how any oath taking, any vow making, anything of the sort of "_I will_ to do" _from the now_ to the "then" ends up in frustration.

Now, admittedly, from the vantage of point of "the me" I easily survey many who are far greater in ability, will power, a devotion, clarity. God forbid I despise any from an envy. (and I ask for God's forbidding as a necessity, only because I see how very easily I have and may, fall into that) I admire endurance in those things I cannot deny (to myself) as good things, patience in tribulation, endurance in hope, sacrifice.

But, if I am allowed to be honest in admiration...I cannot but also be honest how for me...such a willing of myself to be more of what I admire, has always ended in failure. I, at best can only agree if seeing something I identify as a "good", that I see it...but to "be it" by will, is all of what has proven...frustrating.

That I may find some sort of scriptural endorsing of this is moot to me, not because I hold the scriptures of no regard, but more because I have learned, and_ perhaps_ am learning I am not, nor can be, justified _by them_. To say this has come with much use of them to a self justification is also kind of moot...for no one can believe this of me, unless they have been there, themselves. And, maybe no one has...or ever...should be! I may be far too peculiar to ever be found in the _company of man. _And of course, that can easily be no less a testimony of the grossest confession of pride.

Am I a man? Singular? Different...or just so unbearably common I truly...cannot bear this admission?

And I may well be (I don't know) whether this is a plain disqualification, that any and all of "what believes" would not and could not, _ever_ do such. (Be so given to self deceit) So, at best I can only present myself as beggar, supplicant, mendicant for light. I recognize an ability (even strong proclivity!) to handle ...anything ...everything ...quite deceitfully in myself. For the purpose of...myself.

Unless there is a somebody to be "for me" what I plainly see is totally, not only inadequate, but dead set against _any adequacy by a perversity, _I am surely lost. The utter necessity of Jesus Christ to me (and _for me_) bears nothing of myth. Nor can be supported by it...even the most precious of all, once so tightly embraced (but O! so suddenly displayed as all of ash) "I am now a (the) better man".

I can no more make any sense of this to anyone, than I can make any sense of myself...to myself. How a thing can recognize good...and yet be totally bereft in all of its own will to the performance of it.

I don't doubt this can convey some ring of hopelessness to it. But it's funny how man is.

He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

Always demanding what they think will be to their increase and betterment, not knowing how they are contradicting their own salvation.


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## NCHillbilly (Feb 1, 2019)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Unclean animals have a God-given purpose the earth; to clean it of garbage...like pigs and catfish do.    there has always been unclean animals on the earth from the beginning, and God's people knew it.    Noah was told to bring 7 pairs of clean animals on the Ark, as compared to a pair of unclean, so Noah knew the difference between unclean and clean animals then.
> 
> God does not change.   There has never been a commandment of God that He decided was no longer needed.   The Law was perfect and was eternal (until heaven and earth passed away, per Jesus)   Not one jot or tittle would pass from it, and men were not supposed to add to it or take away from it.


I will give up my unclean pork, shrimp, catfish, and frog legs when Jesus pries them out of my cold, dead fingers.


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## gemcgrew (Feb 3, 2019)

StriperAddict said:


> The rules and the Law is an impossibility, but that's the whole point.  It doesn't have power to clean us on the inside like the One final sacrifice can, because it cannot "make men perfect, but bringing in a better hope DID" (Heb). Romans says we died to the law by the body of Christ. Why? Because law revives sin, where grace gives us the power to live godly.
> 
> With that, I'll take both my justification in Christ with a pork sloppy Joe.



Yes. God's measuring of our behavior was put away at Calvary.


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## welderguy (Feb 3, 2019)

The kingdom of God is neither meat nor drink.

Romans 14
1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.


If you're in the kingdom, you're free from the law of sin and death.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 3, 2019)

welderguy said:


> The kingdom of God is neither meat nor drink.
> 
> Romans 14
> 1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
> ...



Those people that were "in," back in Paul's day sure did have a lot of problems with being, "weak in the faith." I'm not denying that they weren't "in," just that Paul sure presented them with a lot of guidelines.

I guess I'm trying to understated Paul's purpose beyond being free from the Law of Sin and death. He did preach that. 

Yet I also see he had many rules and guides similar to laws. Maybe not the Law but laws.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 3, 2019)

gemcgrew said:


> Yes. God's measuring of our behavior was put away at Calvary.



But then Paul explains in his epistles how to behave?


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## Spineyman (Feb 3, 2019)

The new covenant was prophesied in Jeremiah 31:

Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant which they broke, though I was their husband, says the LORD. But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people . . . [and] I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.​


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## Spineyman (Feb 3, 2019)

* Hebrews 8 *
*The New Priestly Service*
8 Now _this is_ the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,  2 a Minister of the  sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.

3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore _it is_ necessary that this One also have something to offer.  4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law;  5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See _that_ you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”  6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
*A New Covenant*
7 For if that first _covenant_ had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.  8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—  9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.  10 For this _is_ the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.  11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.  12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 *In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete*. *Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.*


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## Spineyman (Feb 3, 2019)

* Galatians 3:10-29 *
*The Law Brings a Curse*
10 *For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse;* f*or it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” * 11 But that *no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident,* for *“the just shall live by faith.”  12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”*

13 *Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), * 14 *that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.*
*The Changeless Promise*
15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though _it is_ only a man’s covenant, yet _if it is_ confirmed, *no one annuls or adds to it.*  16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, *“And to your Seed,” who is Christ. * 17 And this I say,* that the law, *which was four hundred and thirty years later, *cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, *that it should make the promise of no effect.  18 *For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.*
*Purpose of the Law*
19 *What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; *_and it was_ appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.  20 Now a mediator does not _mediate_ for one _only,_ but God is one.

21 *Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.*  22 *But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.*  23 *But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. * 24 *Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.  25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.*
*Sons and Heirs*
26* For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.  *27 *For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. * 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; *for you are all one in Christ Jesus.*  29 And *if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.*


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 3, 2019)

Spineyman said:


> The new covenant was prophesied in Jeremiah 31:
> 
> Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant which they broke, though I was their husband, says the LORD. But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people . . . [and] I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.​



 A new covenant with the house of Judah and the house of Israel? Just wondering about the separation and how the new covenant may bring them back together. 
The two becoming one again?


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 3, 2019)

Spineyman said:


> * Hebrews 8 *
> *The New Priestly Service*
> 8 Now _this is_ the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,  2 a Minister of the  sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.
> 
> ...



Even though the Law became obsolete, what was Paul's purpose in providing his guidance lists? 

I mean we finally get rid of the law, we finally have love as our guidance?


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## Big7 (Feb 3, 2019)

Think I read something about man having domain over all the animals. Why yes, come to think of it I did read that.

Please feel free to send me any lobster, shrimp, crab, catfish blah blah and pork you may not have a need for.

I promise I won't let it go to waste.


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## Spineyman (Feb 4, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> A new covenant with the house of Judah and the house of Israel? Just wondering about the separation and how the new covenant may bring them back together.
> The two becoming one again?


 Because Jesus is of the line of Israel and He is also called the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, so in Him they are brought back together under one house. Jesus is the fulfillment of the entire Old Testament, and is made mediator of the New Covenant in His blood!


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## Spineyman (Feb 4, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> Even though the Law became obsolete, what was Paul's purpose in providing his guidance lists?
> 
> I mean we finally get rid of the law, we finally have love as our guidance?


We truly don't git rid of God's law, because He writes it on our hearts. You also have to realize that the Apostles were living in the Old Testament age. What age do you suppose Jesus is referring to when He clearly says? All authority has been givin unto Me. Go therefore and make disciples of all Nations, and lo I am with you always, even to the close of end of the age !


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## StriperAddict (Feb 4, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> But then Paul explains in his epistles how to behave?


Hey Art, consider how the epistles were penned, specifically the content of Colossians and Ephesians. Note that Paul talks about the indwelling sufficiency of Christ ... and the holy, righteous nature of the believers FIRST, and then the behavior passages at the END.
This is huge. We gotta know nothing else except the cross and resurrection and our transformation from the old Adam to the new creation in Christ waaay before we start tossing rules and guidelines out to the saints.  Otherwise it's flesh trust in what we DO for God, and not utter dependence on the finished work.  
The Christ sufficiency side brings rest and fulfilling service,
The self sufficient works only bring burn out, discouragement and a return to the religious "try-fail-rededicate" mantra that is so prevalent in Christian gatherings today.
Paul is not abandoning holy, righteous behaviors (by-products of trust and rest), he's just giving them their rightful place ... and order of business in the body of Christ.  
Those end of the epistle admonitions will sink any saint ... if the saints are without understanding their union with the indwelling Lord!


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 4, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> Even though the Law became obsolete, what was Paul's purpose in providing his guidance lists?
> 
> I mean we finally get rid of the law, we finally have love as our guidance?



obsolete?   Got rid of?    Have you guys forgotten the words of our Messiah, "as long as heaven and earth exist, the Law will be in effect".    Are you saying that Jesus was wrong?    His last commandment, before His crucifixion, was to obey everything Moses said!   lol    Matthew 23:2    When you only listen to what comes out of the pulpit, that's all you'll ever know!    TEST THINGS!!!!


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 4, 2019)

Spineyman said:


> We truly don't git rid of God's law, because He writes it on our hearts. You also have to realize that the Apostles were living in the Old Testament age. What age do you suppose Jesus is referring to when He clearly says? All authority has been givin unto Me. Go therefore and make disciples of all Nations, and lo I am with you always, even to the close of end of the age !



The events of Acts 21-24 are 30 years after Jesus' ascended, and the Apostles are STILL keeping the Law!    lol      I love some of these comments!     Paul, before going to prison, was still - as James said - "walking upright, by keeping the Law"


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 4, 2019)

StriperAddict said:


> Hey Art, consider how the epistles were penned, specifically the content of Colossians and Ephesians. Note that Paul talks about the indwelling sufficiency of Christ ... and the holy, righteous nature of the believers FIRST, and then the behavior passages at the END.
> This is huge. We gotta know nothing else except the cross and resurrection and our transformation from the old Adam to the new creation in Christ waaay before we start tossing rules and guidelines out to the saints.  Otherwise it's flesh trust in what we DO for God, and not utter dependence on the finished work.
> The Christ sufficiency side brings rest and fulfilling service,
> The self sufficient works only bring burn out, discouragement and a return to the religious "try-fail-rededicate" mantra that is so prevalent in Christian gatherings today.
> ...


Thanks, that's a pretty good and thoughtful explanation. Still though, even if the Law has vanished, even with love, even if at the end of the letters from Paul, we still have these lists or guides.

I still have to ask why? Why are they needed? Why can't love be enough? Why can't I accept a Christian homosexual couple? Why should I prodigal an alcoholic? Why can't my wife be the head of our marriage?
These are things Paul tossed at us after. After saying what he did about love.

Personally, I don't see a need for them. I feel that Christ's love was enough. I feel that God giving us his only son was enough. I wish Paul would have felt the same.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 4, 2019)

Spineyman said:


> We truly don't git rid of God's law, because He writes it on our hearts. You also have to realize that the Apostles were living in the Old Testament age. What age do you suppose Jesus is referring to when He clearly says? All authority has been givin unto Me. Go therefore and make disciples of all Nations, and lo I am with you always, even to the close of end of the age !



The what age question? I'm not sure. I think I see what you mean. Jesus was also living in the same age as the apostles, right?
So that's why he preached keeping his Father's commandments?
The Old was fading or becoming obsolete? Becoming vanished?

Like a process of fading over a certain time period? Maybe an overlapping of the two covenants?


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## Spineyman (Feb 5, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> The what age question? I'm not sure. I think I see what you mean. Jesus was also living in the same age as the apostles, right?
> So that's why he preached keeping his Father's commandments?
> The Old was fading or becoming obsolete? Becoming vanished?
> 
> Like a process of fading over a certain time period? Maybe an overlapping of the two covenants?


They were witnessing the end of the Old Testament, in which they lived and preached. They ushered in the New Testament in which was fully implemented in AD 70. When Jesus Christ Himself destroyed the temple from top to bottom. Making it impossible to go back and offer up sacrifices, because He is the sufficiency and completion of those sacrifices. He once and for all made the final sacrifice with His own body and implemented the New Testament in His blood! Now no man ever has fully and perfectly kept the law except Jesus and He says that if you break one part of the law then you have broken it all. We are simply unable to keep the law perfectly and completely. But the Spirit of the living God that dwells in you is able to guide you into all truth. We can not dismiss the law but we do no earn our salvation by keeping it or breaking it. We earn our salvation simply by trusting in the once and for all sacrifice that Jesus made for us on the cross. He is the one who saves us, He is the one that sanctifies us, He is the one that redeems us, He is the one that purchased our salvation.

* Hebrews 9 *

9 Then indeed, even the first _covenant_ had ordinances of divine service and the earthly sanctuary.  2 For a tabernacle was prepared: the first _part,_ in which _was_ the lampstand, the table, and the showbread, which is called the sanctuary;  3 and behind the second veil, the part of the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of All,  4 which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which _were_ the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant;  5 and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail.

6 Now when these things had been thus prepared, the priests always went into the first part of the tabernacle, performing the services.  7 But into the second part the high priest _went_ alone once a year, not without blood, which he offered for himself and _for_ the people’s sins _committed_ in ignorance;  8 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing.  9 It _was_ symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience—  10 _concerned_ only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.

11 But Christ came _as_ High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.  12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.  13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh,  14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?  15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

16 For where there _is_ a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.  17 For a testament _is_ in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.  18 Therefore not even the first _covenant_ was dedicated without blood.  19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,  20 saying, “This _is_ the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you.”  21 Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry.  22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.

23 Therefore _it was_ necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.  24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, _which are_ copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;  25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another—  26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.  27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,  28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.


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## Spineyman (Feb 5, 2019)

* Mark 7:17-23 NKJV*

17 When He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him concerning the parable.  18 So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him,  19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, _thus_ purifying all foods?”  20 And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man.  21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,  22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness.  23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”



* Mark 7:17-23  **ESV*

17 And when he had entered the house and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. 18 And he said to them, “Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, 19 since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.) 20 And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. 21 For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”




* Mark 7:17-2 NASB*

17 When he had left the crowd _and_ entered the house, His disciples questioned Him about the parable. 18 And He *said to them, “Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?” (_Thus He_ declared all foods clean.) 20 And He was saying, “That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22 deeds of coveting _and_ wickedness, _as well as_ deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride _and_ foolishness. 23 All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”


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## Spineyman (Feb 5, 2019)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> The events of Acts 21-24 are 30 years after Jesus' ascended, and the Apostles are STILL keeping the Law!    lol      I love some of these comments!     Paul, before going to prison, was still - as James said - "walking upright, by keeping the Law"



Keeping the law does not save you. Jesus does in fact save you. He also said I will write my laws on your heart!


*Ezekiel 11:19* 

*19 *And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,
*Ezekiel 36:26*

*26 *And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
*Jeremiah 31:33*

*33 *For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
*Hebrews 8:10*

*10 * For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.

Now I am in no way telling anyone to break God's law in any way shape form or fashion, because the Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul...

* Psalm 19:7-11 *

7 The law of the Lord _is_ perfect, converting the soul;
The testimony of the Lord _is_ sure, making wise the simple;
8 The statutes of the Lord _are_ right, rejoicing the heart;
The commandment of the Lord _is_ pure, enlightening the eyes;
9 The fear of the Lord _is_ clean, enduring forever;
The judgments of the Lord _are_ true _and_ righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired _are they_ than gold,
Yea, than much fine gold;
Sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11 Moreover by them Your servant is warned,
_And_ in keeping them _there is_ great reward.



 But keeping God's law does not save you, Jesus saves you. Then He will write His Law on your Heart that you should do them. It is only the in dwelling of the Holy Spirit that gives you the ability to keep them, and the Mediator Christ Jesus to cover you when you break them. Because no one is able perfectly in this life to keep God's Commandments, except Jesus Himself!


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 5, 2019)

Absolutely correct, Spiney!   As I said all through this thread!    God asks us to obey Him from our heart....not in trying to earn anything.    He's already 'saving' us.    Jesus healed first, then asked them not to sin any more....from appreciation and a thankful heart.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 5, 2019)

StriperAddict said:


> The rules and the Law is an impossibility, but that's the whole point.  It doesn't have power to clean us on the inside like the One final sacrifice can, because it cannot "make men perfect, but bringing in a better hope DID" (Heb). Romans says we died to the law by the body of Christ. Why? Because law revives sin, where grace gives us the power to live godly.
> 
> With that, I'll take both my justification in Christ with a pork sloppy Joe.




That is great news!   Not only can I eat unclean food, but I can cheat on my wife knowing that God doesn't really care!    I've been eyeballing this hot woman here at work...and she seems to be open to an affair.    As long as I can keep it from my wife, I can rest assured that God doesn't really care and will bless me!


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 5, 2019)

Spineyman said:


> They were witnessing the end of the Old Testament, in which they lived and preached. They ushered in the New Testament in which was fully implemented in AD 70. When Jesus Christ Himself destroyed the temple from top to bottom. Making it impossible to go back and offer up sacrifices, because He is the sufficiency and completion of those sacrifices. He once and for all made the final sacrifice with His own body and implemented the New Testament in His blood! Now no man ever has fully and perfectly kept the law except Jesus and He says that if you break one part of the law then you have broken it all. We are simply unable to keep the law perfectly and completely. But the Spirit of the living God that dwells in you is able to guide you into all truth. We can not dismiss the law but we do no earn our salvation by keeping it or breaking it. We earn our salvation simply by trusting in the once and for all sacrifice that Jesus made for us on the cross. He is the one who saves us, He is the one that sanctifies us, He is the one that redeems us, He is the one that purchased our salvation.
> 
> * Hebrews 9 *
> 
> ...



That's a lot to grasp at one time. Basically, I guess, Jesus was living in a time of two covenants, one overlapping the other. One fading out and the other fading in.

Do we have anything directly from Jesus' teachings while he was on the earth about this? 
So when Jesus was teaching keep my Father's commandments, it was just for that time period of the overlapping covenants? Yet, just until 70AD when the temple was destroyed?

I would also add that I don't think any of us are saying keeping God's commandments is going to save them.  Commandment keepers do it as a way of showing obedience "after" receiving salvation. 

It's more of a fruit of the Spirit thing. I think it's one of Paul's struggles and teachings. I think he was saying their may be two groups, one who keeps the Law and one who doesn't. Yet don't keep the Law as a show to other men.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 5, 2019)

Obedience is the fruit of our salvation, not the root.     

How can we say the old covenant was 'fading out' when it was eternal....as God the Father AND Jesus said....?    The 'new' of the New Covenant would be the SAME LAWS, just written on your heart, not in stone!


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 5, 2019)

Wanted to add....you can compare our salvation to what we see in the exodus.   God saved the Hebrews from Egypt (unless they rejected Moses - Hebrews 10:26-28) and then, AFTER SAVING THEM, gave them his commands, which included blessings and curses.   Saved them first, then gave them a source of blessing and curses.   Christ has redeemed us from the curses of the Law, not the blessings.    

By the way, if you guys have not watched "Patterns of Evidence - The Exodus"  you are really missing a treat!    As you know, modern historians do not believe there was ever an exodus of a million Hebrews from Egypt.    This documentary gives you overwhelming evidence for the Exodus, and can add to your faith in God's word!


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## Spineyman (Feb 6, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> That's a lot to grasp at one time. Basically, I guess, Jesus was living in a time of two covenants, one overlapping the other. One fading out and the other fading in.
> 
> Do we have anything directly from Jesus' teachings while he was on the earth about this?
> So when Jesus was teaching keep my Father's commandments, it was just for that time period of the overlapping covenants? Yet, just until 70AD when the temple was destroyed?
> ...


 
Jesus wasn't living in two covenants, He is the New Covenant.

We as men are not able to keep God's Law, that is why the New Covenant came about. Because now you have the in dwelling of the Holy Spirit to enable you to be able to keep His Law. The scripture says that we have the same Spirit living in us that also raised Christ from the dead. That same Spirit will quicken or make alive our mortal bodies. That is why we needed the New, because the Law weak and was not able to keep us from our sin, it only showed us our sin. Jesus is however able to keep us from sin and to cleanse us when we do fall!


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## Spineyman (Feb 6, 2019)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Absolutely correct, Spiney!   As I said all through this thread!    God asks us to obey Him from our heart....not in trying to earn anything.    He's already 'saving' us.    Jesus healed first, then asked them not to sin any more....from appreciation and a thankful heart.


That is why the Bible says Faith without works is dead! I say show me your faith and I will show you your works. You are not saved by works, but unto good works!


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 6, 2019)

Spineyman said:


> Jesus wasn't living in two covenants, He is the New Covenant.
> 
> We as men are not able to keep God's Law, that is why the New Covenant came about. Because now you have the in dwelling of the Holy Spirit to enable you to be able to keep His Law. The scripture says that we have the same Spirit living in us that also raised Christ from the dead. That same Spirit will quicken or make alive our mortal bodies. That is why we needed the New, because the Law weak and was not able to keep us from our sin, it only showed us our sin. Jesus is however able to keep us from sin and to cleanse us when we do fall!



When did this New Covenant(Christ) begin? Has it always been? Christ's birth? Christ's death/ascension? His return in 70AD to destroy the temple?

Christ while walking the earth was teaching "keep my Father's commandments. Why was he doing this if he himself was the New Covenant?


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 6, 2019)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Obedience is the fruit of our salvation, not the root.
> 
> How can we say the old covenant was 'fading out' when it was eternal....as God the Father AND Jesus said....?    The 'new' of the New Covenant would be the SAME LAWS, just written on your heart, not in stone!



 Hebrews 8:13
In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Placing the Law on our heart was the same as having it on stone is the same? It would be if it was like taking the Law off a thumbdrive and putting it on your internal hard drive.

It seems like the Cross did way more than just transfer the data.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 6, 2019)

Keep in mind that Hebrews is a classic example of how translators screwed up by adding words in an attempt to "help us understand" what is being said.    In your King James bible you will see the word "covenant" italicized in several places, especially Chapters 8 and 9.    These chapters were about the priesthood, not the covenant, as the context clearly shows.    Hebrews 8:8 says that He found fault with THEM, not IT.    The covenants God made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were ETERNAL....and would never change.   

I remember years ago discussing some things with my buddies in the AAA forum.   One of them, an atheist, (i'll leave her unnamed and I don't think she frequents GON anymore) said that if she were to become a believer she would be into Judaism, since those covenants were forever.    That stuck with me, but like a standard Christian at the time, I dismissed these ETERNAL covenants as irrelevant. I no longer dismiss them, and believe Jesus' words about them being eternal, too.   If my Messiah says that God's/His commandments were forever, and that I'll be great in heaven for keeping them, and that He will be closer to me if I keep them, I believe Him.


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## Spineyman (Feb 6, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> When did this New Covenant(Christ) begin? Has it always been? Christ's birth? Christ's death/ascension? His return in 70AD to destroy the temple?
> 
> Christ while walking the earth was teaching "keep my Father's commandments. Why was he doing this if he himself was the New Covenant?



MATTHEW 26:28   28 "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


 Hebrews  makes  it clear that the New Covenant couldn't begin until after the death of Jesus Christ.


HEBREWS 9:14-17  14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, in order that since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. 17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 6, 2019)

Spineyman said:


> MATTHEW 26:28   28 "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
> 
> 
> Hebrews  makes  it clear that the New Covenant couldn't begin until after the death of Jesus Christ.
> ...



So is that the reason Jesus taught Commandment keeping?


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 6, 2019)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Keep in mind that Hebrews is a classic example of how translators screwed up by adding words in an attempt to "help us understand" what is being said.    In your King James bible you will see the word "covenant" italicized in several places, especially Chapters 8 and 9.    These chapters were about the priesthood, not the covenant, as the context clearly shows.    Hebrews 8:8 says that He found fault with THEM, not IT.    The covenants God made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were ETERNAL....and would never change.
> 
> I remember years ago discussing some things with my buddies in the AAA forum.   One of them, an atheist, (i'll leave her unnamed and I don't think she frequents GON anymore) said that if she were to become a believer she would be into Judaism, since those covenants were forever.    That stuck with me, but like a standard Christian at the time, I dismissed these ETERNAL covenants as irrelevant. I no longer dismiss them, and believe Jesus' words about them being eternal, too.   If my Messiah says that God's/His commandments were forever, and that I'll be great in heaven for keeping them, and that He will be closer to me if I keep them, I believe Him.



I thought one of the major themes of the bible was about the Old Covenant becoming old and Christ becoming the New Covenant.

I mean even if we don't use words like fading, vanishing, obsolete, etc., there is just too many other passages about something happening within time.
Something came about within the scriptural timeline that made something pass away and something new that had come.


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## Spineyman (Feb 6, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> So is that the reason Jesus taught Commandment keeping?


Because God's commandments are forever, they do not change! His Word is immutable ( unchangeable)and stands for all times! His Word is so powerful that He spoke into being all of Creation, and it also makes it stand firm.


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## Spineyman (Feb 6, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> I thought one of the major themes of the bible was about the Old Covenant becoming old and Christ becoming the New Covenant.
> 
> I mean even if we don't use words like fading, vanishing, obsolete, etc., there is just too many other passages about something happening within time.
> Something came about within the scriptural timeline that made something pass away and something new that had come.


You are correct the Old Covenant that God made with Israel is obsolete. The New Covenant God made was not with man but with the Son of Man. So it is between God and God who Tabernacled among us, Jesus. That is how God the Father accepts God the Sons finished work on Calvary for a substitute in our place!


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