# Fellowship with Atheist?



## Artfuldodger (Feb 27, 2013)

Does our belief as Christians allow us in this forum? I know there are verses about not having fellowship with unbelievers. Maybe that was mostly Paul's teachings as Jesus associated with unbelievers. How else do we witness?


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## centerpin fan (Feb 27, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Does our belief as Christians allow us in this forum?



It takes two to tango.  Without us, this place would get pretty boring.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 27, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> It takes two to tango.  Without us, this place would get pretty boring.



Dat's right!


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## mtnwoman (Feb 27, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Does our belief as Christians allow us in this forum? I know there are verses about not having fellowship with unbelievers. Maybe that was mostly Paul's teachings as Jesus associated with unbelievers. How else do we witness?



I'm pretty sure MrDodger that we are not suppose to associate or hang out with sinners and go where they go and do what they do. Like if I went to the bar on friday and saturday night with some of my friends and do what they do, ie get drunk, do drugs, go home with someone and spend the night for sex, etc. Anyway that's my take on the verse.  So MrDodger you are right where Christ called you to be and you are an awesome witness and teacher.

We are called to witness and preach the gospel to the unsaved and of course this forum would be a place to do that. And to our friends who are living in sin and/or are not saved. Because all of us sin, it's just some of us are saved and forgiven by God thru the blood shed of Christ. 

I am and have been a good witness to many of my runnin' buddies, because they know what a wild woman I used to be and they can see the change in me. So if they wanna get out of the hole they are in, I can tell them how to do that.  And I'm not saying everyone here or anywhere else is in a hole they want out of or even consider they are in a hole. I'm just giving my experience and thought on this.
So don't jump my bones....


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 27, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> I'm pretty sure MrDodger that we are not suppose to associate or hang out with sinners and go where they go and do what they do. Like if I went to the bar on friday and saturday night with some of my friends and do what they do, ie get drunk, do drugs, go home with someone and spend the night for sex, etc. Anyway that's my take on the verse.  So MrDodger you are right where Christ called you to be and you are an awesome witness and teacher.
> 
> We are called to witness and preach the gospel to the unsaved and of course this forum would be a place to do that. And to our friends who are living in sin and/or are not saved. Because all of us sin, it's just some of us are saved and forgiven by God thru the blood shed of Christ.
> 
> ...



That's my take on those verses too. And as you said ,witnessing by example, as your old buddies can see how you are living now. And thanks for the good word.

Now how would those verses be applied to associating with unbelievers in a school, learning or social event? An example could be the Boy Scouts or Masonry gatherings where unbelievers are members, unbelievers in Jesus that is. Personally I wouldn't have a problem with it. I would also like to feel that I could go to a Muslim Mosque without getting zapped by God for visiting.


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## WTM45 (Feb 27, 2013)

Bad assumption to think all those who reject religious belief systems are evil, bad, lawless, "actively sinning" people.

I placed my life on the line trusting other soldiers from many different walks of life, many different religious beliefs and more than a few who did not believe anything religious.  Makes golf, softball, talking politics, drinking beer, fishing or hunting with others seem like a cakewalk.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 27, 2013)

Personally, lately, I'd rather hang out anywhere other than the religious crowd. I got friends who can't speak a normal sentence without bringing God into it. Those don't realize how they sound. They make Christians look like weird nuts. They interject religion into every sentence. Interject is the proper word from my assessment of it. Misplaced attempt to show themselves "Christian".


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 27, 2013)

Don't forget that this is an apologetics specific, as well as atheist subforum.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 27, 2013)

Apologetics is when one digs into both sides of the argument. Without knowing, having studied the argument, there is no apologetics. Simply saying, your wrong does not cut it. You have to study the opposing sides foundation, look for cracks, dig them up and expose them. Often times, you walk away with a better understanding of what they believe, and why, and find a new found respect for what it is that they believe as well as respect for theirs and your own right to chose what to believe.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 27, 2013)

The bible has conflicting info when it comes to fellowship with non believers. Consider the verse refering to food sacrificed to idols, "If an unbeliever invites you to a meal..." It goes on to talk about eating. It does not say to reject the invitation


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## ambush80 (Feb 27, 2013)

At some point aren't believers "casting pearls before swine?


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## mtnwoman (Feb 27, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> At some point aren't believers "casting pearls before swine?



At some point, yes they are...of course depending on the circumstance. Believers and unbelievers alike come to a point that they know their words to someone is fruitless. For example, an alcoholic or a drug addict, etc, etc that is not only destroying themselves, but also destroying you and perhaps your family.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 27, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> The bible has conflicting info when it comes to fellowship with non believers. Consider the verse refering to food sacrificed to idols, "If an unbeliever invites you to a meal..." It goes on to talk about eating. It does not say to reject the invitation



Right on. I'm all for a free meal....lol.  All kidding aside though, as long as one of my friends don't dog me out for what I believe, I don't dog them out.  Christ calls first for love and believing something different than I do, doesn't cause me not to love them anyway and it appears most of the time, they love me, too. I do know my boundaries with most of my friends and don't push them. Wanna go to ruby tuesday's?....y yes I sure do...lol.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 27, 2013)

WTM45 said:


> Bad assumption to think all those who reject religious belief systems are evil, bad, lawless, "actively sinning" people.
> 
> I placed my life on the line trusting other soldiers from many different walks of life, many different religious beliefs and more than a few who did not believe anything religious.  Makes golf, softball, talking politics, drinking beer, fishing or hunting with others seem like a cakewalk.



I don't think religious rejecters are all evil, bad, lawless. And thank you for being a soldier!

I think all of us are 'actively sinning'....I don't do some of the crapola that I used to do, but I still am doing something I shouldn't be doing every day.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 27, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> Personally, lately, I'd rather hang out anywhere other than the religious crowd. I got friends who can't speak a normal sentence without bringing God into it. Those don't realize how they sound. They make Christians look like weird nuts. They interject religion into every sentence. Interject is the proper word from my assessment of it. Misplaced attempt to show themselves "Christian".



I totally agree. But there's always a few bad apples in every crowd....take guntoters for example, look how a few make a lot look bad....ya know?


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 27, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> Personally, lately, I'd rather hang out anywhere other than the religious crowd. I got friends who can't speak a normal sentence without bringing God into it. Those don't realize how they sound. They make Christians look like weird nuts. They interject religion into every sentence. Interject is the proper word from my assessment of it. Misplaced attempt to show themselves "Christian".



Yeah I hear Christians who  make it sound like they are trying to impress with there Chrisianity with words instead of actions. Especially if they are doing something like cheating, while bringing up Jesus.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 27, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> Don't forget that this is an apologetics specific, as well as atheist subforum.



I understand but we are still talking about having fellowship with the Atheist on here. The OP was kinda in regards to how I see fellow Christians judging who I get my knowledge from and who Christians associate with. Most say that I can't learn from Gandhi or Bart. Most don't want there children or Christian brothers to associate with atheist yet they are fine with them associating with Muslims & Hindus as in Scouting and Masonry. Why is the Atheist more a threat than a perceived follower of another religion? The Bible verses say un-believers or non-believers. I reckon to some that means just Atheist.


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## WTM45 (Feb 27, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> I don't think religious rejecters are all evil, bad, lawless. And thank you for being a soldier!
> 
> I think all of us are 'actively sinning'....I don't do some of the crapola that I used to do, but I still am doing something I shouldn't be doing every day.



It was my pleasure to serve.

One thing I learned... people are different.  Different cultures, different backgrounds, different opinions, different dreams.  It has been to my benefit to get to know a lot of folks who would have never crossed my path if I stayed in my quiet little hometown in GA!

It is a BIG world out there.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 27, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> I totally agree. But there's always a few bad apples in every crowd....take guntoters for example, look how a few make a lot look bad....ya know?


My post probably made it sound as though all Christians do this. I did not mean it that way. I should clarify that those I call "religious" do this. My use of "religious" being in a negative sense similar to how "pharasees" is used. LOL, I know that an "i" belongs in that word somewhere. But my wife is to busy to ask how to spell it


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## panfried0419 (Feb 27, 2013)

I quit attending denominational churches and cut ties with my Bible thumper friends. I now attend a non-denominational church, attend small groups, and have friendly arguments with non-believers instead of shunning them and telling them they are going to Hades. I have began reading into the history of the Bible and studying its message instead of trying interpret it the way someone told me to. I am also a theistic evolutionist. So no I don't see it as a sin to associate with atheists. I know that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, I accept him as my savior, and pray for forgiveness everyday.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 27, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> My post probably made it sound as though all Christians do this. I did not mean it that way. I should clarify that those I call "religious" do this. My use of "religious" being in a negative sense similar to how "pharasees" is used. LOL, I know that an "i" belongs in that word somewhere. But my wife is to busy to ask how to spell it



You didn't come off sounding that way and I hope I didn't either. It's hard to explain this behavior without sounding condescending. If God knows what's in your heart, there is no use boasting to other men. This is totally different from witnessing and even that takes skill to do without sounding condescending. Maybe churches should  give more classes on witnessing and maybe some do.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 27, 2013)

panfried0419 said:


> I quit attending denominational churches and cut ties with my Bible thumper friends. I now attend a non-denominational church, attend small groups, and have friendly arguments with non-believers instead of shunning them and telling them they are going to Hades. I have began reading into the history of the Bible and studying its message instead of trying interpret it the way someone told me to. I am also a theistic evolutionist. So no I don't see it as a sin to associate with atheists. I know that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, I accept him as my savior, and pray for forgiveness everyday.



Good luck on finding the truth. I've done the same a few years back. I've decided to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling. It's hard to discard a certain upbringing to do what you are doing. There is a big difference from what the Bible says and what various people say the bible says. 
I'm reminded of "rightly dividing the truth."


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## bullethead (Feb 27, 2013)

I would think with as confusing as the Bible is(conflicting commands) plus each individuals interpretation of what they THINK it says, it would be hard to figure out what and who a "true" believer can do and or who they can hang out with. In fact I doubt there is a sole on the planet that can and does follow every single verse as it is written in the Bible. Most people just go with what they like or what fits the moment and that choice usually benefits the individual.
When was the last stoning????


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## panfried0419 (Feb 28, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Good luck on finding the truth. I've done the same a few years back. I've decided to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling. It's hard to discard a certain upbringing to do what you are doing. There is a big difference from what the Bible says and what various people say the bible says.
> I'm reminded of "rightly dividing the truth."



I totally agree.


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## JB0704 (Feb 28, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> At some point aren't believers "casting pearls before swine?



I guess it depends on the motivator for the conversation.  If I was running around trying to convert folks, then, I guess?  But, if I like talking with folks from all different political, religious, and cultural backgrounds, then the conversation is beneficial.

I know that in most circles represented on this forum, the word "diversity" is viewed as a negative.  However, I find that diversity within my social circle adds depth to my understanding, and, I enjoy learning.


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## JB0704 (Feb 28, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I would think with as confusing as the Bible is(conflicting commands) plus each individuals interpretation of what they THINK it says, it would be hard to figure out what and who a "true" believer can do and or who they can hang out with.



Eh, for a Christian, it's pretty easy.  Jesus wasn't real picky about his company.


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## JB0704 (Feb 28, 2013)

panfried0419 said:


> I now attend a non-denominational church, attend small groups, and have friendly arguments with non-believers instead of shunning them and telling them they are going to Hades. I have began reading into the history of the Bible and studying its message instead of trying interpret it the way someone told me to.



I tried a lot of that.....eventually, the non-denom churches I attended started showing certain characteristics I found somewhat unpleasant as well.



panfried0419 said:


> I am also a theistic evolutionist.



Me too, but that's a hard position to defend in a room full of Christians.  Usually, it ends up with something like "so....you don't believe the Bible....." and the conversation goes nowhere.  I can discuss these things with atheists because there is no faith challenging involved.


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## BobKat (Feb 28, 2013)

i dont believe everything in the bible is accurate. I also dont believe that most "christians" perception of God is correct.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 28, 2013)

BobKat said:


> i dont believe everything in the bible is accurate. I also dont believe that most "christians" perception of God is correct.



Neither do the Muslims.


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## WTM45 (Feb 28, 2013)

Or Buddhists...


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 28, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I guess it depends on the motivator for the conversation.  If I was running around trying to convert folks, then, I guess?  But, if I like talking with folks from all different political, religious, and cultural backgrounds, then the conversation is beneficial.
> 
> I know that in most circles represented on this forum, the word "diversity" is viewed as a negative.  However, I find that diversity within my social circle adds depth to my understanding, and, I enjoy learning.



That is my take on hanging out with un believers. If you work in a hospital, you work with a lot of non Christians.
And as I mentioned all sorts of organizations allow memebers who only have to believe in a god to join, no Atheist though. They aren't worshipping with these guys, just socializing. Maybe their actions & attitudes will show others their faith. I see no problem with that.


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## stringmusic (Feb 28, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I guess it depends on the motivator for the conversation.  If I was running around trying to convert folks, then, I guess?  But, if I like talking with folks from all different political, religious, and cultural backgrounds, then the conversation is beneficial.
> 
> I know that in most circles represented on this forum, the word "diversity" is viewed as a negative.  However, I find that diversity within my social circle adds depth to my understanding, and, I enjoy learning.



E Pluribus Unum


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## bullethead (Feb 28, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Eh, for a Christian, it's pretty easy.  Jesus wasn't real picky about his company.



Thank You. Your answer was a perfect example of what I am talking about. You took a snippet from my entire post and gave an answer that fit your views and totally disregarded the rest of my post because (guessing here) you don't have an answer that covers the entire post.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 28, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I would think with as confusing as the Bible is(conflicting commands) plus each individuals interpretation of what they THINK it says, it would be hard to figure out what and who a "true" believer can do and or who they can hang out with. In fact I doubt there is a sole on the planet that can and does follow every single verse as it is written in the Bible. Most people just go with what they like or what fits the moment and that choice usually benefits the individual.
> When was the last stoning????


I.m glad they don't go around "greeting one another with a holy kiss"


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## BobKat (Feb 28, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Neither do the Muslims.



how can a book thats been translated in so many languages and over so many years be accurate?   thats my point....


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## StriperAddict (Feb 28, 2013)

BobKat said:


> how can a book thats been translated in so many languages and over so many years be accurate? thats my point....


 
The fact that the primary message, plus prophecies and fulfillment, historical records and eyewitnessess... span all so many ages says much to its Divine Authorship.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 28, 2013)

BobKat said:


> how can a book thats been translated in so many languages and over so many years be accurate?   thats my point....



The early Christians quoted scripture in their writings.  The differences between what they quoted and what we have today in our modern Bibles are negligible, usually spelling or punctuation.


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## bullethead (Feb 28, 2013)

We know what was written but no clue on who actually wrote it. It is a great piece of work that has stood the test of time. That is about all I am sure of though.


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## BobKat (Feb 28, 2013)

and that people interpret it completly differently is what really gets me i have found that "christian" people are always willing to tell some one they are going to he11 for what they do such hypocrites.


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## bullethead (Feb 28, 2013)

BobKat said:


> and that people interpret it completly differently is what really gets me i have found that "christian" people are always willing to tell some one they are going to he11 for what they do such hypocrites.



Agreed. I could never understand how one person can completely understand it while telling another person that completely understands it that they are wrong.


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## JB0704 (Feb 28, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Thank You. Your answer was a perfect example of what I am talking about. You took a snippet from my entire post and gave an answer that fit your views and totally disregarded the rest of my post because (guessing here) you don't have an answer that covers the entire post.



Nah, Bullet, I failed to realize our discourse had not led us to a point where I had to be a touch more obvious in my respons.  My bad.



			
				bullethead said:
			
		

> I would think with as confusing as the Bible is(conflicting commands)



"Confusing" is subjective.  A person as well versed on the habits of religious folks as you are should know that one trademark of Christians is that most of us tend to think we got it all figured out 



			
				bullethead said:
			
		

> plus each individuals interpretation of what they THINK it says,



It's not "think" to a Christian.....we "believe" we "understand" it....thus the personal faith label.



			
				bullethead said:
			
		

> it would be hard to figure out what and who a "true" believer can do and or who they can hang out with.



Now we are getting back to the "meat and potatoes" of my post.....a Christian has a pattern to follow, set by Jesus.  Each determines what they believe the example is saying, then, they mimic it.  Now, that leads some of us to be militant, and some of us to be hippies, but......that is to be expected of people.  NExt time the President gives a state of the union speech, flip between Foxnews and MSNBC and witness how two people can view the same information and get two completely different takes.



			
				bullethead said:
			
		

> In fact I doubt there is a sole on the planet that can and does follow every single verse as it is written in the Bible.



A scholar like yourself should know that the Bible itself says that there is not a soul on the planet that can and does follow every single verse as it is written  "There is non righteous, no not one......."



			
				bullethead said:
			
		

> Most people just go with what they like or what fits the moment and that choice usually benefits the individual.



No.  I disaree with that.  You are a primary example of why.  You, from what I can tell, were raised in the faith, and rejected it.  At some point I would assume that was a difficult path to take.



			
				bullethead said:
			
		

> When was the last stoning????



My best guess is that it happened about the last time a person got stoned.

Now, I have responded to your entire comment, completely.  I hope I have clarified my deliberately summariazed post (I have a new job where I can't really surf much, so I am a little more brief).


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 28, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> The early Christians quoted scripture in their writings.  The differences between what they quoted and what we have today in our modern Bibles are negligible, usually spelling or punctuation.


Most of the "early Christian writings" were just like we see here everyday. Trying to prove one's own belief over anothers. Most of the quotes are the so called "proof texts". It is interesting that not much has changed except that many beliefs have been labeled


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## pnome (Feb 28, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Jesus wasn't real picky about his company.




Thread over.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 28, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Yeah I hear Christians who  make it sound like they are trying to impress with there Chrisianity with words instead of actions. Especially if they are doing something like cheating, while bringing up Jesus.



We are known by our fruit. 

All of my fruit isn't ripe, but I'm working at it.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 28, 2013)

WTM45 said:


> It was my pleasure to serve.
> 
> One thing I learned... people are different.  Different cultures, different backgrounds, different opinions, different dreams.  It has been to my benefit to get to know a lot of folks who would have never crossed my path if I stayed in my quiet little hometown in GA!
> 
> It is a BIG world out there.



Well I haven't been out of the USA but I've lived in every state in the south including FLA (in case you don't consider Fla a southern state.......big deal. I've moved over 50 times since I got married at 19....I love moving. I'm a fixer upper, buy and resell. I was also married to a travelling music maker and travelled quite a bit there. It really was exciting going to new places and meeting new people...just wished it would've been on a wider scope.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 28, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> My post probably made it sound as though all Christians do this. I did not mean it that way. I should clarify that those I call "religious" do this. My use of "religious" being in a negative sense similar to how "pharasees" is used. LOL, I know that an "i" belongs in that word somewhere. But my wife is to busy to ask how to spell it



Keeping that little woman a workin' eh? Just kiddin'.

I know what you mean. Sometimes I sound like I imply that everyone who isn't a Christian is just a plain ol' sinner just because they aren't Christians and they are evil and mean and that isn't what I mean, either.

To me it's kinda hard to get your point across on a forum without someone taking it in a way you didn't mean it and then when they call you on it, you can see why they thought you meant something other than what you meant....sometimes on purpose and sometimes because it really sounded that way.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 28, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Neither do the Muslims.



or atheists.


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## GunnSmokeer (Feb 28, 2013)

If shooting guns is fun, and talking about guns is fun, and because I do these things for my pleasure (and not really to bring Glory to God), am I sinning?  Am I guilty of loving this world and things of this world?  Because I should not be loving the world. To love the world is to not love the Lord.  Right????  (John 2:15)


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## mtnwoman (Feb 28, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Agreed. I could never understand how one person can completely understand it while telling another person that completely understands it that they are wrong.



I understand very little of the Bible and I admit it. But I do believe John 3:16 and most Christians can agree on that and that is one if not the only one we 'need' to agree on. The rest of it we'll know later. Believing what we each believe, nor understanding the entire Bible isn't what gives us salvation.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 28, 2013)

GunnSmokeer said:


> If shooting guns is fun, and talking about guns is fun, and because I do these things for my pleasure (and not really to bring Glory to God), am I sinning?  Am I guilty of loving this world and things of this world?  Because I should not be loving the world. To love the world is to hate the Lord.  Right????



I don't believe so. God's Word tells us He wants us to have the desires of our hearts, He just doesn't want us to love or worship anything above Him. Where I live, many, many, many men who are Christians hunt, fish, love cars, work on trucks, ride harley's, play football, or softball, go camping, skating etc etc. Our souls live in this world but our spirit, the part of us that connects with God isn't of this world. And I'm pretty sure that scripture means doing evil things of the world.


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## bullethead (Feb 28, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Nah, Bullet, I failed to realize our discourse had not led us to a point where I had to be a touch more obvious in my respons.  My bad.



No problem, it was just a fine example of how many reach their conclusions in the Bible or Dear Abby or the Horoscope. They might read it all and pick out what suits them or they may just read enough to satisfy them or they read it all but only what they want to hear stands out.





JB0704 said:


> "Confusing" is subjective.  A person as well versed on the habits of religious folks as you are should know that one trademark of Christians is that most of us tend to think we got it all figured out


True and IF it was done by a being capable of such high capabilities there would be no need for anyone not to get it exactly right.





JB0704 said:


> It's not "think" to a Christian.....we "believe" we "understand" it....thus the personal faith label.


And still so many contradicting interpretations.





JB0704 said:


> Now we are getting back to the "meat and potatoes" of my post.....a Christian has a pattern to follow, set by Jesus.  Each determines what they believe the example is saying, then, they mimic it.  Now, that leads some of us to be militant, and some of us to be hippies, but......that is to be expected of people.  NExt time the President gives a state of the union speech, flip between Foxnews and MSNBC and witness how two people can view the same information and get two completely different takes.


But there is so much to the Bible before Jesus





JB0704 said:


> A scholar like yourself should know that the Bible itself says that there is not a soul on the planet that can and does follow every single verse as it is written  "There is non righteous, no not one......."


A scholar like myself knows that the Bible is more than the New Testament.





JB0704 said:


> No.  I disaree with that.  You are a primary example of why.  You, from what I can tell, were raised in the faith, and rejected it.  At some point I would assume that was a difficult path to take.


Almost painful when I realized what it really is.





JB0704 said:


> My best guess is that it happened about the last time a person got stoned.


Hit with rocks or "medicinal perscription" stuff?



JB0704 said:


> Now, I have responded to your entire comment, completely.  I hope I have clarified my deliberately summariazed post (I have a new job where I can't really surf much, so I am a little more brief).


Hey what do you know...and me to your entire post! Congrats on the new job.


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## bullethead (Feb 28, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> I understand very little of the Bible and I admit it. But I do believe John 3:16 and most Christians can agree on that and that is one if not the only one we 'need' to agree on. The rest of it we'll know later. Believing what we each believe, nor understanding the entire Bible isn't what gives us salvation.



Salvation lasts as long as your alive.


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## JB0704 (Mar 1, 2013)

bullethead said:


> True and IF it was done by a being capable of such high capabilities there would be no need for anyone not to get it exactly right.



Them's your rules.



bullethead said:


> And still so many contradicting interpretations.



Two intelligent people sit and listen to a Ron Paul speech.  One hears the rantings of a madman, the other hears the savior of our nation.....I dunno man.  People are funny.



bullethead said:


> But there is so much to the Bible before Jesus



Yes.  But, I am a Christian.  That's why Jesus sets the bar for me (and I tend to have a "hippie" take on it).




bullethead said:


> Almost painful when I realized what it really is.



I'm sure it was.  And, I do admire the search for truth, even if I regret where it lead you.



bullethead said:


> Hit with rocks or "medicinal perscription" stuff?.



Either or, I think both answered the question. 




bullethead said:


> Congrats on the new job.



Thank you, sir.  It was a long time in the works, a lot of school, a lot of applications, and quite a few interviews.  I am now one of the lucky few who actually have a job where I honestly enjoy what I do.


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## mtnwoman (Mar 1, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Salvation lasts as long as your alive.



Proven by who?


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## mtnwoman (Mar 1, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> It was a long time in the works, a lot of school, a lot of applications, and quite a few interviews.  I am now one of the lucky few who actually have a job where I honestly enjoy what I do.



That's awesome!!!


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 1, 2013)

Been pondering the good news of a child now believing. Strange question. Was he an atheist before this? What I mean is that if your not a believer, then what are you? It just don't seem right to call an unbelieving child an atheist. Yet, what I'm pondering is does age matter? Is it because we just dislike the word? I don't know? I'm just pondering


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## bullethead (Mar 1, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> Proven by who?



You


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 1, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> Been pondering the good news of a child now believing. Strange question. Was he an atheist before this? What I mean is that if your not a believer, then what are you? It just don't seem right to call an unbelieving child an atheist. Yet, what I'm pondering is does age matter? Is it because we just dislike the word? I don't know? I'm just pondering



Yes it seems harsh but in reality you are either with Jesus or against Jesus. So people who have a problem associating with Atheist and are OK  associating with believers of other Gods or even the God of Abraham who don't believe in Jesus are living a double standard.(hint:Boy Scouts & Masons)
Why is a Hindu a better person than an Atheist? Do Hindus have better morals? Does there God grant them similar traits to our God?
Some Atheist, Hindus, & Pagans will someday become Christians. Some Christians will someday become Atheist, Hindus, & Pagans.
I would say children under the age of accountability aren't Atheist unless they claim to be. Children have the knowledge to at least believe in God. They know God and possibly worship God, they just aren't old enough to ask Jesus to save them. Or the other way where you don't ask and the Holy Spirit enters whoever he wants to.


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## mtnwoman (Mar 1, 2013)

bullethead said:


> You



Ok MrSnippet....


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## mtnwoman (Mar 1, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Yes it seems harsh but in reality you are either with Jesus or against Jesus. So people who have a problem associating with Atheist and are OK  associating with believers of other Gods or even the God of Abraham who don't believe in Jesus are living a double standard.(hint:Boy Scouts & Masons)
> Why is a Hindu a better person than an Atheist? Do Hindus have better morals? Does there God grant them similar traits to our God?
> Some Atheist, Hindus, & Pagans will someday become Christians. Some Christians will someday become Atheist, Hindus, & Pagans.
> I would say children under the age of accountability aren't Atheist unless they claim to be. Children have the knowledge to at least believe in God. They know God and possibly worship God, they just aren't old enough to ask Jesus to save them. Or the other way where you don't ask and the Holy Spirit enters whoever he want to.



There are some kids down the street that my grandchildren hang out with...swimteam, tumbling, etc etc...who believe what their parents believe...they do not believe in God. My grandchildren have caught their interest in Jesus, but their major influence is still there. And I believe that children with Christian parents are taught the gospel and they have a choice or not to believe. That's why we are called to preach the gospel, to give our children at least the choice and hope they make that choice like MrGem.

Without hearing the gospel. unless you are predestined, can you even know to come to Christ. All we have to do is plant the seed by preaching the gospel and the Holy Spirit takes over from there. Otherwise we wouldn't be called to preach the gospel. Let him who has ears, hear....


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## mtnwoman (Mar 1, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> but in reality you are either with Jesus or against Jesus.



Well you are with-Christ or you're part of the anti-christ.
satan is alive and well on planet earth....but only for a time.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 2, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> Without hearing the gospel. unless you are predestined, can you even know to come to Christ. All we have to do is plant the seed by preaching the gospel and the Holy Spirit takes over from there. Otherwise we wouldn't be called to preach the gospel. Let him who has ears, hear....



It's amazing how we keep coming up with verses that lean towards free will. I personally can't fathom the "Great Commission" as just a command of obedience. I would hate to know I was witnessing to someone who didn't even have a chance at salvation. The "witness to everyone" just in case that person might be one of the elect doesn't fly in my book.  Witnessing might be for the people God doesn't have a special purpose for, like Saul. He's going to intervene in those special occasions anyway. All others might need the persuasion of a personal witness. After a little witnessing, they might seek, using their free will, and they will find.
I don't believe God gives us "busy work." His requests of our faith has a purpose. Prayer is a good example.


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## bullethead (Mar 2, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> There are some kids down the street that my grandchildren hang out with...swimteam, tumbling, etc etc...who believe what their parents believe...they do not believe in God. My grandchildren have caught their interest in Jesus, but their major influence is still there. And I believe that children with Christian parents are taught the gospel and they have a choice or not to believe. That's why we are called to preach the gospel, to give our children at least the choice and hope they make that choice like MrGem.
> 
> Without hearing the gospel. unless you are predestined, can you even know to come to Christ. All we have to do is plant the seed by preaching the gospel and the Holy Spirit takes over from there. Otherwise we wouldn't be called to preach the gospel. Let him who has ears, hear....



Without ever hearing about Jesus or the God of the Bible no one would ever come to those conclusions on their own. The same can be said for any other of the world's many other Gods. The vast majority of the time early indoctrination plants the seed and like Santa and the Easter bunny a kid has no choice but to believe. The more intense the parents and family believes the more the children are subjected to the thoughts and beliefs of the parents.There are no kids that break down into tears and find Jesus without ever have hearing of him first. The more intense the family indoctrination the more dramatic the scene. No need to take my word for it though, studies have proven it.
Lots of adults find Jesus too usually after some sort of tragic event or a stint behind bars. But oddly the same adults that are in the same situations in non Christian countries find their Gods too but for some reason not Jesus.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 2, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Without ever hearing about Jesus or the God of the Bible no one would ever come to those conclusions on their own. The same can be said for any other of the world's many other Gods. The vast majority of the time early indoctrination plants the seed and like Santa and the Easter bunny a kid has no choice but to believe. The more intense the parents and family believes the more the children are subjected to the thoughts and beliefs of the parents.There are no kids that break down into tears and find Jesus without ever have hearing of him first. The more intense the family indoctrination the more dramatic the scene. No need to take my word for it though, studies have proven it.
> Lots of adults find Jesus too usually after some sort of tragic event or a stint behind bars. But oddly the same adults that are in the same situations in non Christian countries find their Gods too but for some reason not Jesus.



That is a bit of a mystery. Some say God has shown the whole world who he is by his creation, the trees, mountains, miracle of life, etc. I'm not too sure of that because why did he issue the "Great Commission?" There may be only a small handful of people that God lead to find Jesus who weren't seeking. Now our mission, if we decide to accept it, is to lead the others to Jesus. 
I agree with the "mind struggle" that people all over the world are dying and have never heard the "Word." I'll just have to let that mystery be.


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## bullethead (Mar 2, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> That is a bit of a mystery. Some say God has shown the whole world who he is by his creation, the trees, mountains, miracle of life, etc. I'm not too sure of that because why did he issue the "Great Commission?" There may be only a small handful of people that God lead to find Jesus who weren't seeking. Now our mission, if we decide to accept it, is to lead the others to Jesus.
> I agree with the "mind struggle" that people all over the world are dying and have never heard the "Word." I'll just have to let that mystery be.



Well it really isn't much of a mystery.

Either the first 2 people on the planet were "created" by God or they were not. If they were created by this god and the god were real then how in the heck did all the other people get all these other crazy notions that there were other gods? If there is one god known to the first generation and passed on to the next generation and so on, how did people pop up on the complete other side of the earth(not to mention within a few miles of where a so called God created mankind) and not believe in the same god? If they are descendants of Adam and Eve they should know all about God. If they are not descendants of Adam and Eve then God should have created them too, yet they don't know a single thing about him. OR, and most likely realistic, NO God involved anywhere. Stories and Fables created by localized people that tell the story they made up. It is done in every culture in every part of the world and each tell a totally different story.


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## bullethead (Mar 2, 2013)

No Masai Warrior has ever been stalking a lion and has burst into tears because Jesus had overtaken him. No Masai Warrior has ever heard of Jesus UNLESS some outsider that claims to "know" Jesus has told them about Jesus. This can be said of any belief system going from religion, to magical holiday entities, to mythological creatures. The more a person is indoctrinated the more the thoughts of others magically become their own. Grow up having your Father dress you in Seattle Seahawks gear from the time you were in your first Onezie until your 15 and you can't help but watch every game when they play for those years because Pop watches every game...Odds are your gonna be a Seahawks fan, cause odds are your father went through the same thing from his father. If you live in the Seattle area the odds increase even more. Not much of a mystery.


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## bullethead (Mar 2, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> That is a bit of a mystery. Some say God has shown the whole world who he is by his creation, the trees, mountains, miracle of life, etc. I'm not too sure of that because why did he issue the "Great Commission?" There may be only a small handful of people that God lead to find Jesus who weren't seeking. Now our mission, if we decide to accept it, is to lead the others to Jesus.
> I agree with the "mind struggle" that people all over the world are dying and have never heard the "Word." I'll just have to let that mystery be.



I missed the Great Commission memo. When did God order this? Being that the Bible has been written by many unknown authors over a span of 1500 years, there is no doubt somebody ordered the great commission....but I am betting it wasn't or isn't a God.


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## mtnwoman (Mar 2, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Without ever hearing about Jesus or the God of the Bible no one would ever come to those conclusions on their own. The same can be said for any other of the world's many other Gods. The vast majority of the time early indoctrination plants the seed and like Santa and the Easter bunny a kid has no choice but to believe. The more intense the parents and family believes the more the children are subjected to the thoughts and beliefs of the parents.There are no kids that break down into tears and find Jesus without ever have hearing of him first. The more intense the family indoctrination the more dramatic the scene. No need to take my word for it though, studies have proven it.
> Lots of adults find Jesus too usually after some sort of tragic event or a stint behind bars. But oddly the same adults that are in the same situations in non Christian countries find their Gods too but for some reason not Jesus.



No I take your word for it and of course I, too, realize that the god of your upbringing is the god that you choose.  I believe there were/are other gods because most people tend to seek something higher than themselves. Whether the gods (and of course I believe under-gods) are real or manmade, I believe they are real to the people who worship them. And that comes from my belief in where God says to have no other gods before Him. Whether it be a named higher being, or whether it's something like drugs, alcohol, and other addictions.

To me there is then the difference in converting, most other religions do not try to convert you to what they believe. Either they don't care whether you go to a heaven or not, or they haven't been instructed to do so, as if their god is just their god and they own it. 

And you know the other stuff I believe


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## mtnwoman (Mar 2, 2013)

bullethead said:


> No Masai Warrior has ever been stalking a lion and has burst into tears because Jesus had overtaken him. No Masai Warrior has ever heard of Jesus UNLESS some outsider that claims to "know" Jesus has told them about Jesus. This can be said of any belief system going from religion, to magical holiday entities, to mythological creatures. The more a person is indoctrinated the more the thoughts of others magically become their own. Grow up having your Father dress you in Seattle Seahawks gear from the time you were in your first Onezie until your 15 and you can't help but watch every game when they play for those years because Pop watches every game...Odds are your gonna be a Seahawks fan, cause odds are your father went through the same thing from his father. If you live in the Seattle area the odds increase even more. Not much of a mystery.



Again I agree.

My granddaughters are NC State fans...or should I say fanatics...lol. My son in law even bought them Wolfpack cheerleader outfits to wear to the games. I don't even like to watch sports but if I see an NC State sticker on a car I give them the wolf sign....lol. How easily influenced we can be, eh?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 2, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I missed the Great Commission memo. When did God order this? Being that the Bible has been written by many unknown authors over a span of 1500 years, there is no doubt somebody ordered the great commission....but I am betting it wasn't or isn't a God.



Some believe the Great Commission was added to the Bible later.


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## mtnwoman (Mar 2, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> It's amazing how we keep coming up with verses that lean towards free will.



Because of this forum, we have been seeking and that's what makes me come here again and again. Not only here but you know what I mean.

Seek and ye shall find.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 2, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Well it really isn't much of a mystery.
> 
> Either the first 2 people on the planet were "created" by God or they were not. If they were created by this god and the god were real then how in the heck did all the other people get all these other crazy notions that there were other gods? If there is one god known to the first generation and passed on to the next generation and so on, how did people pop up on the complete other side of the earth(not to mention within a few miles of where a so called God created mankind) and not believe in the same god? If they are descendants of Adam and Eve they should know all about God. If they are not descendants of Adam and Eve then God should have created them too, yet they don't know a single thing about him. OR, and most likely realistic, NO God involved anywhere. Stories and Fables created by localized people that tell the story they made up. It is done in every culture in every part of the world and each tell a totally different story.



Even in Genesis the Amorites were already worshipping other Gods. Even if you don't believe in God, we probably all come from the same lineage from the beginning yet we still ended up differently. why don't we act like Europeans here in the USA?


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## bullethead (Mar 2, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Even in Genesis the Amorites were already worshipping other Gods. Even if you don't believe in God, we probably all come from the same lineage from the beginning yet we still ended up differently. why don't we act like Europeans here in the USA?



Lots of holes in the holy stories.

It is why we do end up differently that leads me to believe there was and is no creator that micro manages so much of certain things and totally overlooks others.


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## bullethead (Mar 2, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Some believe the Great Commission was added to the Bible later.



Yep.


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## JB0704 (Mar 2, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Lots of holes in the holy stories.
> 
> It is why we do end up differently that leads me to believe there was and is no creator that micro manages so much of certain things and totally overlooks others.



Is it the "micro-managing" aspect you dont believe, or the creator part of it all?


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## bullethead (Mar 2, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Is it the "micro-managing" aspect you dont believe, or the creator part of it all?



Both
I have gone from firm believer in the God of the Bible and his Son, to man may have embellished the stories and out right fibbed the rest but there could be a creator of some sorts though not like we may think, to now having zero confidence that any sort of intelligent super being exists let alone having a hand or care in any aspect of life on this planet or anywhere else.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 2, 2013)

Who were the other Gods in the Bible? We even have a commandment not to worship them.


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## bullethead (Mar 3, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Who were the other Gods in the Bible? We even have a commandment not to worship them.



Are you not supposed to worship them at all or just put the God of the Bible first on your worship list and rate him as #1??


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## bullethead (Mar 3, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Even in Genesis the Amorites were already worshipping other Gods. Even if you don't believe in God, we probably all come from the same lineage from the beginning yet we still ended up differently. why don't we act like Europeans here in the USA?



Going by the Bible timelines apparently God was extremely active in the every day life of people on earth for @6000 years. With such an incredible force present some people did not only NOT believe in it, they never even heard of it. Being there is no other writings of these interactions with God outside of a a very small localized area in the middle east, and being these writings always include a people that are being persecuted AND may I add that since the last period was placed on the last page of the last story there has not been a single credible interaction between this God and ANY creature on the planet anywhere near the magnitude that has been portrayed by ancient fables in writings that span 1500years. It took 1500 years of various authors to concoct such tales. A 400 year break in the action was need to think up a new twist to a God that wasn't holding the attention of the people so a New God...same god, just reincarnated as his son, but really isn't his son, but isn't the same guy only he kinda is the same guy but anyway in order to save "us" god kills himself, or his own son or whatever tangled story you want to get out of it.  And in most cases the stories told do not match up with the stories of their foes. And In many instances it has been proven that the incidents and struggles and triumphant victories NEVER HAPPENED.
Having some sort of thought process I would think that a story told that includes a God that had a hand in a decisive victory, great escape, or incredible miracle would hold up to the scrutiny of facts. They just don't.
So I cannot hold the Bible as whole as any sort of truth, let alone the individual stories that make up the whole.

Answer to second part of your question. Evolution. During our stint and Since we all left the plains of Africa we have had to adapt to different environments both physically and mentally. Nature and our survival demands it or we die. Each one of us on this planet is Unique and through parental, sibling, clan, society, and many other outside influences we are who we are today. Like minded band together and societies and regions split and gather accordingly.


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## mtnwoman (Mar 3, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Answer to second part of your question. Evolution. During our stint and Since we all left the plains of Africa we have had to adapt to different environments both physically and mentally. Nature and our survival demands it or we die. Each one of us on this planet is Unique and through parental, sibling, clan, society, and many other outside influences we are who we are today. Like minded band together and societies and regions split and gather accordingly.



Does this include all the different race/color of people?


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## mtnwoman (Mar 3, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Are you not supposed to worship them at all or just put the God of the Bible first on your worship list and rate him as #1??



Not worship them at all.


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## bullethead (Mar 3, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> Does this include all the different race/color of people?



Absolutely. That is included in the physical part.
How do you believe people got to be different colors and races?


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## bullethead (Mar 3, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> Not worship them at all.



Specifics to back that up please......


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 3, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Answer to second part of your question. Evolution. During our stint and Since we all left the plains of Africa we have had to adapt to different environments both physically and mentally. Nature and our survival demands it or we die. Each one of us on this planet is Unique and through parental, sibling, clan, society, and many other outside influences we are who we are today. Like minded band together and societies and regions split and gather accordingly.



Could this separation of people also explain why people worship other gods & idols? This would also explain all the different beliefs within Christianity.
You were trying to use this logic earlier as to why the whole world doesn't follow the God of Adam, now you are using it to show why they don't.


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## bullethead (Mar 3, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Could this separation of people also explain why people worship other gods & idols? This would also explain all the different beliefs within Christianity.
> You were trying to use this logic earlier as to why the whole world doesn't follow the God of Adam, now you are using it to show why they don't.



If there is One True God, creator of creation and all that other jazz, the people would know about it.
There is either one, many or none.
What I showed was how people expanded and branched out. No actual God involved, just everyone's version of what they NEED life to be like now and when they are dead.


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## mtnwoman (Mar 3, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Absolutely. That is included in the physical part.
> How do you believe people got to be different colors and races?



Really? Why don't all the people born and raised in America look european?
I understand because of the sun in Africa that you'll be dark skinned, yet black babies born in America and raised in America are black....or did that all cease too, when the apes quit evolving?


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## mtnwoman (Mar 3, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Specifics to back that up please......



I don't worship a sun god. I love a beautiful sunny day, to lay in the sun or swim in the sun, or grow plants yet I don't worship the sun. I worship the creator of all things. 

I love the stars and moon and the tides that are caused by the gravity of the moon, yet I don't worship them. People have in the past and perhaps still do. Many worship creation and not the creator. I guess it depends on where you're coming from. If I didn't know differently, I could worship what benefited me more in my life. If I lived in Africa perhaps I would worship the rain. But since I know the Creator, I worship Him for providing what we need on this earth to survive.

Don't you wanna know about the devil? as you ask earlier, and then switched to this.


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## bullethead (Mar 3, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> I don't worship a sun god. I love a beautiful sunny day, to lay in the sun or swim in the sun, or grow plants yet I don't worship the sun. I worship the creator of all things.
> 
> I love the stars and moon and the tides that are caused by the gravity of the moon, yet I don't worship them. People have in the past and perhaps still do. Many worship creation and not the creator. I guess it depends on where you're coming from. If I didn't know differently, I could worship what benefited me more in my life. If I lived in Africa perhaps I would worship the rain. But since I know the Creator, I worship Him for providing what we need on this earth to survive.
> 
> Don't you wanna know about the devil? as you ask earlier, and then switched to this.



I specifically want to know how YOU know that the Devil is involved in making people worship the sun,moon and stars.


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## mtnwoman (Mar 3, 2013)

bullethead said:


> What I showed was how people expanded and branched out. No actual God involved, just everyone's version of what they NEED life to be like now and when they are dead.



It's funny how we all need gravity, and the sun, and water, and an axis, and the moon, etc etc etc....and it just happened to 'slam' together...what of those things that make up planet earth could we live without....other than asbestos or poison ivy.


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## mtnwoman (Mar 3, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I specifically want to know how YOU know that the Devil is involved in making people worship the sun,moon and stars.



If you know the Bible as well as you say you do then you know the answer to that....satan 101...worship anything other than the God of Abraham.

I guess you're gettin' around to my questions?

It's like a quiz around here...


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## mtnwoman (Mar 3, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Who were the other Gods in the Bible? We even have a commandment not to worship them.



Anything/anybody that is worshipped above Him. Even our vices, addictions, whatever. I reckon at that time, there were people worshipping plenty of idols...well just like today.  Golden calf, sun god, zeus, pharoah, etc etc.


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## bullethead (Mar 3, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> Really? Why don't all the people born and raised in America look european?
> I understand because of the sun in Africa that you'll be dark skinned, yet black babies born in America and raised in America are black....or did that all cease too, when the apes quit evolving?



Honestly, and no offense, if you don't already know the answers to those questions then I don't have enough time or patience to tell you something that you will not believe or understand anyway.

I will say this ONE last time. WE did not evolve FROM apes.
Humans and apes evolved from a common ancestor. Humans and apes each took a different path along the evolutionary trail to get to where we are at today. Each of us are still evolving to fill the needs of what each of the two species need. Like humans the apes have not quit evolving.
I feel that you believe that one day apes should turn into something that looks like us and can speak like us. Well IF that is what was needed for them to survive, it might take about 500 million years for a small branch of them to get there. But they are doing just fine right now and are not going to eventually turn into a human. It just does not work that way.
The whole "If apes are evolving why are there still apes" argument/question is for people that do not and possibly cannot understand how evolution works. Despite all the information available some people refuse to use the available resources to educate themselves.
When in a discussion it is best to gather as much information about the other side of your argument as you have gathered about your own argument.


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## bullethead (Mar 3, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> If you know the Bible as well as you say you do then you know the answer to that....satan 101...worship anything other than the God of Abraham.
> 
> I guess you're gettin' around to my questions?
> 
> It's like a quiz around here...



I was "on" your questions right from the start. You just have not caught on until after I had to be very very very specific.
See I do know the Bible and I am STILL waiting for you to provide the specific verses that deal with the claims you are making. Post the verses that say the Devil(or Satan) is responsible for people that worship the sun,moon or stars.
I'm not asking for according to mtnwoman, I want to know where God commands it.


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## mtnwoman (Mar 3, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Honestly, and no offense, if you don't already know the answers to those questions then I don't have enough time or patience to tell you something that you will not believe or understand anyway.
> 
> I will say this ONE last time. WE did not evolve FROM apes.
> Humans and apes evolved from a common ancestor. Humans and apes each took a different path along the evolutionary trail to get to where we are at today. Each of us are still evolving to fill the needs of what each of the two species need. Like humans the apes have not quit evolving.
> ...



You don't have to tell me again about apes...and others don't need to tell me again about how we evolved from fish. That wasn't my question, and you know it. I don't believe it, so I don't need or want to hear about it again, so PLEASE don't tell me again.

Just answer my question.  If people look like they look, races/color etc....because of their surroundings  then why doesn't that change when they are born in another part of the world. If God didn't create the races, then why do they remain the same living in another environment? When did adapting to their environment stop?

This is becoming a oneway quiz.


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## mtnwoman (Mar 3, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I was "on" your questions right from the start. You just have not caught on until after I had to be very very very specific.
> See I do know the Bible and I am STILL waiting for you to provide the specific verses that deal with the claims you are making. Post the verses that say the Devil(or Satan) is responsible for people that worship the sun,moon or stars.
> I'm not asking for according to mtnwoman, I want to know where God commands it.



Finally....ok then I will.

Oh wait, I just had a thought that popped outta 'nowhere'.  If you are wanting scriptures that specifically name the sun, moon and star worshippers only....there is one that I know of about the solstice....the rest is covered under 'no gods'. Before I go into a search and then you say you only wanted ones that mentioned those. Let me say this.

Some wiccans and pagans alike 'worship' the winter solstice as the coming of light.

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 

Since this all began about the solstice, that's where I got the thought of what is celebrated at the winter solstice and how it relates to satan.

If you want scripture on how satan perverts/counterfiets many things on this earth to be the cause of worship, I can give you that. But none that are specifically named....except no other gods, and we all know there are/were sun gods, etc etc.

I'm not gonna provide a bunch of info for you and then you wanna pull a mr snippit episode


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## bullethead (Mar 3, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> You don't have to tell me again about apes...and others don't need to tell me again about how we evolved from fish. That wasn't my question, and you know it. I don't believe it, so I don't need or want to hear about it again, so PLEASE don't tell me again.
> 
> Just answer my question.  If people look like they look, races/color etc....because of their surroundings  then why doesn't that change when they are born in another part of the world. If God didn't create the races, then why do they remain the same living in another environment? When did adapting to their environment stop?
> 
> This is becoming a oneway quiz.



This is absolute nonsense not any sort of quiz. To give a quiz you must first know the answer. If you don't know the answer you cannot give a quiz.
Just because you don't believe something does not make it incorrect. Refusing to educate yourself about it is a disservice to yourself and you handicap yourself when trying to hold a conversation about it.

The answer is evolution. Not enough time has gone by to even put a dent in skin color from the breeding only within the same race just by switching continents 400 years ago.
Although with the racial interbreeding it is not to many years in the future that the majority of the American population will "look" like Brazilians.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 3, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> You don't have to tell me again about apes...and others don't need to tell me again about how we evolved from fish. That wasn't my question, and you know it. I don't believe it, so I don't need or want to hear about it again, so PLEASE don't tell me again.
> 
> Just answer my question.  If people look like they look, races/color etc....because of their surroundings  then why doesn't that change when they are born in another part of the world. If God didn't create the races, then why do they remain the same living in another environment? When did adapting to their environment stop?
> 
> This is becoming a oneway quiz.



And for future knowledge all of "us" were ALL dark skinned and spread out across the continents from somewhere in Africa. God didn't create different races. Those races evolved over such a long period of time that you just cannot wrap your mind around it for no other reason than 'you don't want to'.


----------



## mtnwoman (Mar 3, 2013)

bullethead said:


> The answer is evolution. Not enough time has gone by to even put a dent in skin color from the breeding only within the same race just by switching continents 400 years ago.
> Although with the racial interbreeding it is not to many years in the future that the majority of the American population will "look" like Brazilians.



I'd say mexicans....hola..lol

All I said to start all of this was satan causes people to believe in false gods, and that he's a counterfieter and I'm sure that even if I didn't use these exact words you're wanting to know how I know the devil caused people to worship the sun, moon, etc. I guess I shoulda named everything/everybody that God meant when He said 'have no other Gods' before me.  You're either of Christ or the antiChrist, so anything that goes against Christ is part of the antichrist's doing....
I think as you claim to understand many things, that you'd understand my 'simple' writings and I think you do you just wanna have a snippit party. You aren't really interested in satan, because he doesn't exist to you.

You just like to torment me.....


----------



## mtnwoman (Mar 3, 2013)

bullethead said:


> And for future knowledge all of "us" were ALL dark skinned and spread out across the continents from somewhere in Africa. God didn't create different races. Those races evolved over such a long period of time that you just cannot wrap your mind around it for no other reason than 'you don't want to'.



WOW you read my mind....lol. I said I didn't wanna know about apes not races.  I know how the races adapted to the earth...and I believe God created all men.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 3, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> I'd say mexicans....hola..lol
> 
> All I said to start all of this was satan causes people to believe in false gods, and that he's a counterfieter and I'm sure that even if I didn't use these exact words you're wanting to know how I know the devil caused people to worship the sun, moon, etc. I guess I shoulda named everything/everybody that God meant when He said 'have no other Gods' before me.  You're either of Christ or the antiChrist, so anything that goes against Christ is part of the antichrist's doing....
> I think as you claim to understand many things, that you'd understand my 'simple' writings and I think you do you just wanna have a snippit party. You aren't really interested in satan, because he doesn't exist to you.
> ...



What interests me is people that claim to know what a God and a Devil know. I am fascinated by people who claim to understand the being that they tell everyone else cannot be understood. I am fascinated that you know know everything that the Devil is responsible for now too.

Yours from another thread:


mtnwoman said:


> But there is a summer and winter solstice that God created for a reason and I celebrate that creation in a different way than pagans and wiccans. Remember satan's work is like a bootleg tape...satan didn't create the solstices he just copies it and skews it. I don't worship the sun but I thank God for it, the moon, the stars, etc. None of that was created by satan, he just turned them into idols for those who do not believe in God.



I am just curious how you know what Satan has done, what is his work and what is not.

The last thing I want to do is have a snippet party. All I ask is for you to explain yourself when you make a claim. 

It is just no longer worth the conversation. I think your a nice person and have a great heart. I'm just not going to get involved in any more of your posts or replies. Nothing personal, it just takes up a lot of time and gets me nowhere.
adios


----------



## JB0704 (Mar 3, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Both
> I have gone from firm believer in the God of the Bible and his Son, to man may have embellished the stories and out right fibbed the rest but there could be a creator of some sorts though not like we may think, to now having zero confidence that any sort of intelligent super being exists let alone having a hand or care in any aspect of life on this planet or anywhere else.



Ok.  For some reason our previous conversations had me believing you were agnostic and sometimes borderline deist.....not sure why......


----------



## mtnwoman (Mar 3, 2013)

bullethead said:


> It is just no longer worth the conversation. I'm just not going to get involved in any more of your posts or replies. Nothing personal, it just takes up a lot of time and gets me nowhere.
> adios



Same here.

I try to join in because I'm interested, but you are too degrading of me and my responses...even though I may be responding to someone else.


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## mtnwoman (Mar 3, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Ok.  For some reason our previous conversations had me believing you were agnostic and sometimes borderline deist.....not sure why......



I'm pretty sure he's made it clear....at least from my perspective, a long time ago.


----------



## JB0704 (Mar 4, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> I'm pretty sure he's made it clear....at least from my perspective, a long time ago.



I think I thought that because I interpretted comments to sound more like "something may have created us, but it wasn't your god...." type thing.  But, I was unsure.

Anyway, I enjoy reading y'alls back-and-forth commentary....I hope nobody made anybody else's iggy list


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## bullethead (Mar 4, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Ok.  For some reason our previous conversations had me believing you were agnostic and sometimes borderline deist.....not sure why......



Until about a month ago you were spot on with that assessment.


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## BobKat (Mar 4, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> Well you are with-Christ or you're part of the anti-christ.
> satan is alive and well on planet earth....but only for a time.




Iv heard others say satan is on earth but in church we were always told that he was in the pit .... can you explain what i missed?


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## mtnwoman (Mar 4, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I think I thought that because I interpretted comments to sound more like "something may have created us, but it wasn't your god...." type thing.  But, I was unsure.
> 
> Anyway, I enjoy reading y'alls back-and-forth commentary....I hope nobody made anybody else's iggy list



I don't have an iggy list.

Hope you have a happy blessed day.


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## mtnwoman (Mar 4, 2013)

BobKat said:


> Iv heard others say satan is on earth but in church we were always told that he was in the pit .... can you explain what i missed?



He won't be in the pit until after Christ comes back. If you consider that it was satan that caused Adam and Eve to fall, he's the one that causes kaos and is the author of confusion and he's also called the tempter and the fowler in scripture...he's the one that causes us to fall and tempts us to do evil or sin, same as he did with adam,eve and Christ.


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## BobKat (Mar 4, 2013)

i thought that already happened tho? .... this is why i dont go to church they confuse things more than anything. and wahts with the story in revelation about the woman whos running from the beast and shes pregnant. who is she


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## bullethead (Mar 4, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I think I thought that because I interpretted comments to sound more like "something may have created us, but it wasn't your god...." type thing.  But, I was unsure.
> 
> Anyway, I enjoy reading y'alls back-and-forth commentary....I hope nobody made anybody else's iggy list



Your Batting .500 on this one.


----------



## centerpin fan (Mar 4, 2013)

BobKat said:


> i thought that already happened tho? .... this is why i dont go to church they confuse things more than anything. and wahts with the story in revelation about the woman whos running from the beast and shes pregnant. who is she



I see the confusion you're talking about, but it's not with the church.


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## BobKat (Mar 4, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I see the confusion you're talking about, but it's not with the church.



i dont like church because of all the hypocrites also. I feel like if i really want to be closer to God then i go to the woods and talk to him


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## stringmusic (Mar 4, 2013)

BobKat said:


> i dont like church because of all the hypocrites also. I feel like if i really want to be closer to God then i go to the woods and talk to him



Which god exactly? Didn't you say that there might be more than one god?

BTW, hypocrites can't save you. Start going to church for the One who does save and the hypocrites won't seem so bad.


----------



## centerpin fan (Mar 4, 2013)

BobKat said:


> i dont like church because of all the hypocrites also.



Even if you never set foot inside a church again, can't you come up with a better excuse than this?




BobKat said:


> I feel like if i really want to be closer to God then i go to the woods and talk to him



Okey dokey.


----------



## BobKat (Mar 4, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Which god exactly? Didn't you say that there might be more than one god?
> 
> BTW, hypocrites can't save you. Start going to church for the One who does save and the hypocrites won't seem so bad.



i do think there could be more than one.... i dont doubt others religions because i dont know everything.  i guess what i mean about hypocrites is the particular church that i went to, i havent tried going somewhere else.   but you are right i shouldnt stop going because of people.


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## BobKat (Mar 4, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Even if you never set foot inside a church again, can't you come up with a better excuse than this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



you dont feel like your closer to god outside around everything that he created?    maybe its just me...    i dont really feel like i have to go to church to believe in god


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## centerpin fan (Mar 4, 2013)

BobKat said:


> i dont really feel like i have to go to church to believe in god



You don't, but every major religion has organized services with like-minded believers.  I am always grateful to be outside in God's creation, but it is not a substitute for church ( for a Christian.)


----------



## BobKat (Mar 4, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> You don't, but every major religion has organized services with like-minded believers.  I am always grateful to be outside in God's creation, but it is not a substitute for church ( for a Christian.)



but i dont really have the same beliefs as the church anymore.   i believe in god yes and in heaven and - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - but thats about as far as it goes. I guess im unsure of my religion


----------



## centerpin fan (Mar 4, 2013)

BobKat said:


> but i dont really have the same beliefs as the church anymore.   i believe in god yes and in heaven and - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - but thats about as far as it goes. I guess im unsure of my religion



I know.  That's why I qualified my comment:



centerpin fan said:


> You don't, but every major religion has organized services with like-minded believers.  I am always grateful to be outside in God's creation, but it is not a substitute for church ( for a Christian.)


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 4, 2013)

BobKat said:


> but i dont really have the same beliefs as the church anymore.   i believe in god yes and in heaven and - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - but thats about as far as it goes. I guess im unsure of my religion



Don't give up on God by the people that tell you "you have to go to a Church building." That isn't a requirement for salvation. If you believe Jesus is your saviour, you are saved.
I can't find a Church building that I feel comfortable attending on a regular basis but I am still in "The Church."

I can't find that many "like minded believers." I understand it's my choice so I'll live with it and accept it as the way it is.


----------



## BobKat (Mar 4, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Don't give up on God by the people that tell you "you have to go to a Church building." That isn't a requirement for salvation. If you believe Jesus is your saviour, you are saved.
> I can't find a Church building that I feel comfortable attending on a regular basis but I am still in "The Church."
> 
> I can't find that many "like minded believers." I understand it's my choice so I'll live with it and accept it as the way it is.



thank you. I believe i just dont beileve in the same things that the church goers do i relate to Diesm  in some ways


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## mtnwoman (Mar 4, 2013)

BobKat said:


> i dont like church because of all the hypocrites also. I feel like if i really want to be closer to God then i go to the woods and talk to him



We can all be hypocrites at one time or another. I would be a little embarrassed if someone from church sees me buying beer or wine coolers along with my cookout supplies.  I use to feel 'obligated' to go to church 'to be seen' doing what I should be doing....I don't now, I go because I want to learn about the Bible...so I go to a bible teaching church. Not only do I yearn for it, I need it. 

I go to a huge bible teaching church and I usually sit in service alone up front, that way I can pay attention to what is going on. I see a few people that I know sometimes but  my focus is on the Word.  I yearn for Christ and the Word. 

The church I grew up in, most of the men were sleeping, as if they didn't need to hear anything more or if they already knew it all. I don't go for them, I go for myself. I like praise and worship and usually have everything else blocked out of my mind, thinking only of Christ and what He has done for me.

Don't worry about hypocrytes, worry about what you need or about what you get out of it. We are all sinful, hypocrytical, like dirty rags. Go to church to worship God and learn His word and let Him worry about everyone else.

As you can see by some of my posts here, I get caught up in things I shouldn't, say things I shouldn't and get an attitude that I shouldn't. And I'm always convicted of it...of what "I" should do and not what everyone else should and should not do.

It's okay to worship God outside, that is His creation, when you look at all the beautiful things and realize He created them for us to enjoy it brings us the joy He intends for us to have.  He wants us to be happy, and He wants us to appreciate the gift of Christ He gave us for redemption of sin....that is why we need that personal relationship with God. And by Christ's stripes we are not only forgiven but we are healed for our iniquities, the things on the inside of us that causes us to think, do, say, the things we do. Going to a bible teaching  church, rather than a fire and brimstone type church will help you understand more about what Christ has done for you.

I'll pray for your confusion on these things and hope that you find a place to hear the Word that will make you wanna seek Christ more.

Sorry this is so long. I hope it make sense to you.


----------



## mtnwoman (Mar 4, 2013)

BobKat said:


> thank you. I believe i just dont beileve in the same things that the church goers do i relate to Diesm  in some ways



I know what you mean. I don't always agree with everything that is going on or the preacher says. I remember distinctly a preacher that said be submissive to your husband, whether he's saved or not....I wanted to stand up and say....what if he's a drug dealer and wants me to help him. I didn't but I came close.

Seek and you will find, and that appears to me what you are doing...


----------



## mtnwoman (Mar 4, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Don't give up on God by the people that tell you "you have to go to a Church building." That isn't a requirement for salvation. If you believe Jesus is your saviour, you are saved.
> I can't find a Church building that I feel comfortable attending on a regular basis but I am still in "The Church."
> 
> I can't find that many "like minded believers." I understand it's my choice so I'll live with it and accept it as the way it is.



MrDodger, God will lead you to a church that will 'suit' your needs. I'll be in prayer for that.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 4, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> The church I grew up in, most of the men were sleeping, as if they didn't need to hear anything more or if they already knew it all.



My dad said when he was a boy and went to Church in the country that a lot of men would not even go inside for the service. They would wait outside for their wives and children. His granddaddy was the preacher and would always go outside and round them up for the service.


----------



## mtnwoman (Mar 4, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> My dad said when he was a boy and went to Church in the country that a lot of men would not even go inside for the service. They would wait outside for their wives and children. His granddaddy was the preacher and would always go outside and round them up for the service.



Good for granddaddy!

My papaw would drop me and my mamaw off and then pick us up. He'd always fix breakfast for us on sunday mornin' before we went, but he never went to church with us. Sadly I don't know if he was saved. Mamaw said he accepted Christ on his deathbed at the VA hosp...but that mighta been for my daddy's benefit and for ours.

He was in siberia in the first world war at age 13, because he ran away from a mean stepmother. My size 5 daughter couldn't even get into his uniform. That's sad, to me. But has nothing to do with this, just thinking about him.


----------



## JB0704 (Mar 4, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Until about a month ago you were spot on with that assessment.



Suffering is a tough thing to comprehend.  Even harder if you believe a creator is involved.  Because "why" will never be answered.  If there is no creator, "why" is answered by science, even though it is often cold and tough to accept, but random genetic mutations happenning where they will makes a lot more sense than a disinterested God allowing good people to suffer.

There has been a lot of suffering around me lately.  A lot of good people going through some very tough things.  Some folks dieing too young.  Some folks dealing with things that don't make any sense.  Because I believe in God.....it confuses me. I don't understand it.  But that's not the point for me.  The end of my search does not result in an enlightening.  I am looking for peace.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 4, 2013)

I don't understand it either but believing in God & science makes it easier. How can a Christian say they don't believe in science anyway?
Why does a person getting attacked by a mutated gene have to be the work of God? Why does the smaller deer in the Florida Keys have to be the work of God? Couldn't he have got the ball rolling and let nature take over on it's own? If I wake up in the morning and my heater quits, why blame it on God instead of a mechanical breakdown? I guess being in a mechanical trade I realize anything mechanical doesn't run smoothly forever including the human body.


----------



## mtnwoman (Mar 4, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Suffering is a tough thing to comprehend.  Even harder if you believe a creator is involved.  Because "why" will never be answered.  If there is no creator, "why" is answered by science, even though it is often cold and tough to accept, but random genetic mutations happenning where they will makes a lot more sense than a disinterested God allowing good people to suffer.
> 
> There has been a lot of suffering around me lately.  A lot of good people going through some very tough things.  Some folks dieing too young.  Some folks dealing with things that don't make any sense.  Because I believe in God.....it confuses me. I don't understand it.  But that's not the point for me.  The end of my search does not result in an enlightening.  I am looking for peace.



Adam chose the world over the garden of eden. That action caused all of us to 'fall'. We went from a perfect world into an imperfect world.  For me without Christ, who is our deliverer, I would not be able to survive the things of this world.

He's my healer, my redeemer, my deliverer, my husband, my salvation, my teacher, my 'i will die for you' guy. He's my all and all.  Even though it may not all be in the flesh, but it's in my spirit, and HE is my peace, that allows me to walk this earth as long as I have to....until my work here is done, and He will give me rest. Of all the things I've done in my life, I am only alive because I have not fullfilled my mission here....not because I should've been dead long ago...and that in itself is a miracle. Nobody here knows.


----------



## mtnwoman (Mar 4, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't understand it either but believing in God & science makes it easier. How can a Christian say they don't believe in science anyway?
> Why does a person getting attacked by a mutated gene have to be the work of God? Why does the smaller deer in the Florida Keys have to be the work of God? Couldn't he have got the ball rolling and let nature take over on it's own? If I wake up in the morning and my heater quits, why blame it on God instead of a mechanical breakdown? I guess being in a mechanical trade I realize anything mechanical doesn't run smoothly forever including the human body.



MrDodger, I have no problem with science...I think God is the ultimate scientist. Things were created that even scientists didn't discover for many years, even though they existed. A scientist didn't cause gravity or the moon to effect the tides, they just 'realized' it.  No scientist has ever created something out of nothing, they needed something from the earth to discover or 'create' a cure for illnesses, or whatever.  Nothing new under the sun, so says the Bible.

I'm trying to keep it short...


----------



## bullethead (Mar 4, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Suffering is a tough thing to comprehend.  Even harder if you believe a creator is involved.  Because "why" will never be answered.  If there is no creator, "why" is answered by science, even though it is often cold and tough to accept, but random genetic mutations happenning where they will makes a lot more sense than a disinterested God allowing good people to suffer.
> 
> There has been a lot of suffering around me lately.  A lot of good people going through some very tough things.  Some folks dieing too young.  Some folks dealing with things that don't make any sense.  Because I believe in God.....it confuses me. I don't understand it.  But that's not the point for me.  The end of my search does not result in an enlightening.  I am looking for peace.



That was not totally the reason JB. It was one of the straws that finally broke the camels back. Over the years all the straws really add up and I could no longer find the excuses that once led me to remove them. I realized that they were never gone and faith only hid the real problems without ever actually fixing one. I have seen the light but not as a believer would think. The light bulb came on and the realization was overwhelming. I think I am at more ease now than I have ever been now that I have given up any possibility of any sort of intelligent, caring, omniscient, omnipotent,hands on being in that capacity as religion would have us believe could ever exist. It is very easy, almost calming, to not deal with a so called God, any sort of God. I am relieved to finally admit that the last glimmer of a thought that something could be has vanished. Reality has over taken hope. I no longer am fooled or fool myself. This was a long process. Thorough really. I am satisfied with the result.


----------



## mtnwoman (Mar 4, 2013)

bullethead said:


> That was not totally the reason JB. It was one of the straws that finally broke the camels back. Over the years all the straws really add up and I could no longer find the excuses that once led me to remove them. I realized that they were never gone and faith only hid the real problems without ever actually fixing one. I have seen the light but not as a believer would think. The light bulb came on and the realization was overwhelming. I think I am at more ease now than I have ever been now that I have given up any possibility of any sort of intelligent, caring, omniscient, omnipotent,hands on being in that capacity as religion would have us believe could ever exist. It is very easy, almost calming, to not deal with a so called God, any sort of God. I am relieved to finally admit that the last glimmer of a thought that something could be has vanished. Reality has over taken hope. I no longer am fooled or fool myself. This was a long process. Thorough really. I am satisfied with the result.



I'm sorry MrBullet for all the things that caused you to come to that conclusion. And I certainly don't know what all those reasons are.  I don't understand why I've gone thru what I've gone thru and have, for many years, blamed God for letting me go thru those things as well as others. But the only way I can deal with it, now, after 30 years, is that the peace of Christ can give me peace with it.  And that's the only way I can justify going thru the fire the potter needs to mold me. Since I work with a kiln and glass at 1400 degrees that I can comprehend creating something beautiful out of something that has to go thru the fire.

Hope you don't have me blocked. I sure do like 'boxing' round for round with you. You do cause me to 'think'. Even though I may seem less educated or ignorant or not 'wanting to'....I know where you're come from, because I've been there.


----------



## BobKat (Mar 5, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> We can all be hypocrites at one time or another. I would be a little embarrassed if someone from church sees me buying beer or wine coolers along with my cookout supplies.  I use to feel 'obligated' to go to church 'to be seen' doing what I should be doing....I don't now, I go because I want to learn about the Bible...so I go to a bible teaching church. Not only do I yearn for it, I need it.
> 
> I go to a huge bible teaching church and I usually sit in service alone up front, that way I can pay attention to what is going on. I see a few people that I know sometimes but  my focus is on the Word.  I yearn for Christ and the Word.
> 
> ...



thank you so much


----------



## BobKat (Mar 5, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't understand it either but believing in God & science makes it easier. How can a Christian say they don't believe in science anyway?
> Why does a person getting attacked by a mutated gene have to be the work of God? Why does the smaller deer in the Florida Keys have to be the work of God? Couldn't he have got the ball rolling and let nature take over on it's own? If I wake up in the morning and my heater quits, why blame it on God instead of a mechanical breakdown? I guess being in a mechanical trade I realize anything mechanical doesn't run smoothly forever including the human body.



this is how i think also... i kinda think that God created everything and then took a step back and let it all keep evolving, i do believe in evolution not neccessarily that we came from monkeys. i think that God doesnt really care what happens now and doesnt control it


----------



## JB0704 (Mar 5, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Over the years all the straws really add up and I could no longer find the excuses that once led me to remove them.



I hear ya man.  But, you're here.  You got here from somewhere.  It was either an accident or a design, and everything around you is either chance or not.  I have posted pics of my young'uns before, as a reason why I have hope that they are more than a galactic circumstance.  

I can't change your mind, and I don't want too.  Your place in life is your choosing, and so is mine.  If you have peace, then I can't fault you for finding it, even if I disagree with your premise.



			
				bullethead said:
			
		

> I think I am at more ease now than I have ever been now that I have given up any possibility of any sort of intelligent, caring, omniscient, omnipotent,hands on being in that capacity as religion would have us believe could ever exist. It is very easy, almost calming, to not deal with a so called God, any sort of God. I am relieved to finally admit that the last glimmer of a thought that something could be has vanished. Reality has over taken hope. I no longer am fooled or fool myself. This was a long process. Thorough really. I am satisfied with the result.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 5, 2013)

BobKat said:


> this is how i think also... i kinda think that God created everything and then took a step back and let it all keep evolving, i do believe in evolution not neccessarily that we came from monkeys. i think that God doesnt really care what happens now and doesnt control it



I believe in evolution too. I would rather call it natural selection. I believe rainbows are a sign the world will never flood again and at the same time I believe a rainbow is caused by light refraction. I have no problem believing both at the same time. 

I don't believe God made that man in Florida get sucked into that chasm. When I have a chasm spasm, I don't believe God caused it. I don't believe he is a micro-manager and he gives us choices of our own.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 5, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I hear ya man.  But, you're here.  You got here from somewhere.  It was either an accident or a design, and everything around you is either chance or not.  I have posted pics of my young'uns before, as a reason why I have hope that they are more than a galactic circumstance.


I think there are more possibilities than accident or design.
Everything in our lives revolves around chance.



JB0704 said:


> I can't change your mind, and I don't want too.  Your place in life is your choosing, and so is mine.  If you have peace, then I can't fault you for finding it, even if I disagree with your premise.


Good enough





JB0704 said:


>


Same to you JB


----------



## BobKat (Mar 6, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I believe in evolution too. I would rather call it natural selection. I believe rainbows are a sign the world will never flood again and at the same time I believe a rainbow is caused by light refraction. I have no problem believing both at the same time.
> 
> I don't believe God made that man in Florida get sucked into that chasm. When I have a chasm spasm, I don't believe God caused it. I don't believe he is a micro-manager and he gives us choices of our own.



i dont think its the devil or god i think its just life


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## bullethead (Mar 6, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I hear ya man.  But, you're here.  You got here from somewhere.  It was either an accident or a design, and everything around you is either chance or not.



... rarity by itself shouldn't necessarily be evidence of anything. When one is dealt a bridge hand of thirteen cards, the probability of being dealt that particular hand is less than one in 600 billion. Still, it would be absurd for someone to be dealt a hand, examine it carefully, calculate that the probability of getting it is less than one in 600 billion, and then conclude that he must not have been dealt that very hand because it is so very improbable. --John Allen Paulos, Innumeracy: Mathematical Illiteracy and its Consequences


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