# Hills to die for?



## JB0704 (Mar 11, 2012)

I visited a different denomination's church this morning, and a few things got me to thinking......

I haven't been part of a church in several years. I have vistited here and there for different reasons, but started a few months back passively dipping my toes in the water again.  I determined I need to try several different denominations and approaches, from traditional to contemporary, from Presbyterian to Baptist (and there's a local Orthodox Church I intend to visit one of these days when I am good and prepared to stand for several hours straight).

But, in my travels, I have noticed things that would be "hills to die for" in my old mindset.  I left the church over the general laziness of congregants, which manifested itself in out of control and out of sync leadership practices.  But, what is, or can be "overlooked?"

What are your (any reader who cares enough to respond) "hills to die for?"

We know that non-Biblical leadership structure is typically shrugged off.  So, why are female preachers forbidden?  What is the difference between a woman preaching and a woman leading the congregation in song?  What about gays in service positions?  Do they need communion weekly, daily, or whenever the preacher wants a good crowd on Sunday night?  

Aside from saying "Biblically accurate" (because we can find places where most have differences of opinion on a few gray areas), what must Church have / not have?  What is the foundation for such a belief?

I am totally lost on this.  I saw things today which I never would have seen before, and said "huh?"


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## mtnwoman (Mar 11, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I visited a different denomination's church this morning, and a few things got me to thinking......
> 
> I haven't been part of a church in several years. I have vistited here and there for different reasons, but started a few months back passively dipping my toes in the water again.  I determined I need to try several different denominations and approaches, from traditional to contemporary, from Presbyterian to Baptist (and there's a local Orthodox Church I intend to visit one of these days when I am good and prepared to stand for several hours straight).
> 
> ...



You'll know when it's the right church, keep seeking....'seek and ye shall find'!


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## centerpin fan (Mar 11, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> ... (and there's a local Orthodox Church I intend to visit one of these days when I am good and prepared to stand for several hours straight).



The service is only an hour and a half and you get to sit during the sermon.


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## centerpin fan (Mar 11, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I visited a different denomination's church this morning,



You had a busy morning.  How many different ones and what denoms?


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## JB0704 (Mar 11, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> You'll know when it's the right church, keep seeking....'seek and ye shall find'!



Come on now, let's be more specific.

What would send you running for the door?  A fella handling a snake?  A woman preacher?  A drum set?  A gay choir member?

Every denomination has a "Biblical reason" for their beliefs.  I have my personal beliefs.  How much is too much when the two don't line up?  Some folks will sit and follow a "head pastor's vision," but would leave in a big hurry if a choir member was openly gay.


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## JB0704 (Mar 11, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> You had a busy morning.  How many different ones and what denoms?



I worded it poorly.  Sorry.  Just one today, a few over the last few months.  Traditional, contemporary.  Non-denom. I am trying to figure out where I "fit," if I fit at all.

Cool on the standing thing.  I thought I read that it was four hours straight, that was a bit daunting for a former Baptist like me.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 11, 2012)

My Dad will be 90 in July. He goes to a different church every Sunday, various denominations. I guess it can hit you at any age. He plays the harmonica & sings. I asked him about a certain church and he said he didn't need to go there any more because the preacher plays the harmonica. So for him it would be if the church has a harmonica player or not. For me the common denominator would be whether you think Jesus is the only way or not.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 11, 2012)

Churches where men are dressed up as lawyers and wemin as the mayor's wife kind of distracts me.

I like church with plain and poor folk. I fit right in. Church for people with cloths that don't fit and match is just my style.

Yet, I can suffer "eye"talian suits and pretty girls for God.

And any church that does not know its gifts is a bit of a fanny sore for me.

As with you, there was a time in my life where I "visited" many churches or denoms. In reality I took from them what was good, and tried to understand how God was trying to minister in each..and for Him I would go pray in them anyday, if they welcomed me.

For me I found out that the church I belong to is the one I was ever into. They are not to worried and are quite steady that I am there. They are quite at ease with odd-ball like me, in fact they expect the out of ordinary, as I do.


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## JB0704 (Mar 12, 2012)

gordon 2 said:


> As with you, there was a time in my life where I "visited" many churches or denoms. In reality I took from them what was good, and tried to understand how God was trying to minister in each..and for Him I would go pray in them anyday, if they welcomed me.
> 
> For me I found out that the church I belong to is the one I was ever into. They are not to worried and are quite steady that I am there. They are quite at ease with odd-ball like me, in fact they expect the out of ordinary, as I do.



Thanks for you input, G2.  There are many things which seperate denominations.  I guess each difference represented somebody's "hill" at one point in time.  I am with you on wanting to be around folks like me, everyday people.  That goes in a lot of different directions, the traditional churches often have the most humble and sweet spirits.  The contemporary churches, in all their efforts to be casual and cool, tend to be very very cold in my experience.

But, the question remains, how much "un-biblical" is too much?  We have had threads where folks have told me repeatedly to go anyway, even where there are glaring discrepancies.  Does that mean I go to a charasmatic church even when I do not believe the gift of tongues still exists?  Not sure......


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## JB0704 (Mar 12, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> My Dad will be 90 in July. He goes to a different church every Sunday, various denominations. I guess it can hit you at any age. He plays the harmonica & sings. I asked him about a certain church and he said he didn't need to go there any more because the preacher plays the harmonica. So for him it would be if the church has a harmonica player or not. For me the common denominator would be whether you think Jesus is the only way or not.



Your Dad sounds like a pretty cool fella.  I always wanted to play the harmonica.  I own a couple of them, but never got the hang of it.  All I play is guitar, and not very good.


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## WELLS8230 (Mar 12, 2012)

cHURCH OF GOD, OR ANY BIBLE BASED CHURCH


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## Huntinfool (Mar 12, 2012)

This kind of stuff, I don't worry about...



> As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
> One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.
> 
> (Romans 14:1-6 ESV)




This kind of stuff, I do...and I will take my family and run for the hills.



> I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.
> 
> (Romans 16:17-18 ESV)




What's the difference?  In the first passage, believers are wrongly doing things in an effort to serve the Lord.  Through gentle correction with a right heart, unity can be had.

In the second passage, church members who have been welcomed in are doing things to serve themselves and not the Lord.  In all cases, that is bad and we should avoid welcoming those people as "brother".

It's a matter of "motivation" in my mind.  If I have a peace that those in leadership and those around me are acting in an effort to serve and glorify God, then I don't worry about differences we may have on certain issues.

Absolutely, there are certain doctrinal issues that I believe have to be held to firmly.  But, in the end, is what's going on motivated by service to the Lord or is it motivated by a self-serving attitude?


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## JB0704 (Mar 12, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> What's the difference?  In the first passage, believers are wrongly doing things in an effort to serve the Lord.  Through gentle correction with a right heart, unity can be had.
> 
> In the second passage, church members who have been welcomed in are doing things to serve themselves and not the Lord.  In all cases, that is bad and we should avoid welcoming those people as "brother".
> 
> ...



Great post HF, and thanks for taking the time to reply here.  I was hoping for some of your input.

Motivation.  I said previously that I left because of a "laziness" I saw developing where I viewed the church as becoming more "me oriented," or, "what do I get from it."  This led to seeing some very horrible things done in the name of God.  But, then, if we are trying to see the heart of the act, could we go to a Church where doctrinal issues are different than what we believe, understanding that the differences are acted out in the name of serving God?  Could you attend a charismatic church (assuming you are not charasmatic) that acted so in humility and with a gentle spirit?

Is there a difference in saying "this church has a head pastor calling all shots and casting visions, that is wrong, but I can go because they do so in an effort to serve God.  But, this other Church speaks in tongues and has a woman preacher, so I won't go....even thought they are just trying to serve God."

I am not building towards a "gotcha" here.  I am very curious.  You touched on the concept of unity, which is a very tricky one, and I would like to know at what point we are on the side of unity against belief.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 12, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I determined I need to try several different denominations and approaches, from traditional to contemporary, from Presbyterian to Baptist



Why? What is it you are seeking? It appears to me that you would be better off staying home and studying the warnings in Scripture regarding false prophets, false religion, false teachers, false shepherds etc. 

While Christ walked on the earth, He warned us of the great danger of false prophets and false religion more often than anything else. There is a very real danger here.


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## formula1 (Mar 12, 2012)

*Re:*

JB,

Proud of you that you are at least searching and if you are sincere, you will find it.

For me, since I was not too different from you as I was 8 years out of church because of being disappointed twice with it's result, I hope you will consider my suggestions.   

Things that were most important to me when I returned to a church, in order:

1) A genuine love for Christ and for others.
2) A leadership that is consistant and true and portrays the character of Christ, and does not change with every whim.  This takes some time to see, BTW.
3) Congregants who for the most part, know that they are sinners, saved by a gracious God, and everyone that walks through the doors has eternal worth.  It should be noted though that in a large congregation, this is not prevalent. The best way to understand this, I believe, is in the smaller groups that meet outside of the large assembly.  Just saying.  This takes time also. You'll know by what is important to them, by the fruit of their actions, love, and words. This can take time as well.
4) Grace and Truth abounds.
5) A basic set of essential beliefs, but not hung up on doctrinal things that are non-essential to the message of Christ. Examples of non-essentials :  Bibles, clothing, musical styles are some of the externals, focused on the Truth of Christ rather than things like 2nd comings, calvinism,  revelation, gifts, dispensations, etc.  In short, building each other up in Love and in Christ should be the central theme, with freedom in the non-essentials.  I did not give essentials, but I would say most churches have a pretty good essentials list (statement of faith). The real question is "Is it lived out everyday?".

A word of warning.  Be careful of those wolves in sheeps clothing, those who look good and act good, but inside they are full of 'dead men's bones'.  It takes time to see the really clever ones.  Just saying!


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## Huntinfool (Mar 12, 2012)

> Motivation. I said previously that I left because of a "laziness" I saw developing where I viewed the church as becoming more "me oriented," or, "what do I get from it." This led to seeing some very horrible things done in the name of God. But, then, if we are trying to see the heart of the act, could we go to a Church where doctrinal issues are different than what we believe, understanding that the differences are acted out in the name of serving God? Could you attend a charismatic church (assuming you are not charasmatic) that acted so in humility and with a gentle spirit?



If you're looking for a church where everyone who attends is in perfect lockstep with the will of God and is living their life in service to him only and you never see a self-motivated person...then you should actually stay home and not waste the effort to visit.  That church does not and cannot exist.  We are fallen people in a fallen world and we all will be motivated, from time to time, by self (which, BTW, is one of the reasons you should look for an elder led church and not a church led by a single person).

As I see it, there will always be people who are PRIMARILY self-serving...especially in the south where church attendance is just expected.

The question is whether those who have been given authority as leaders are in that category or not; whether they hold what you know is true doctrinally and whether they bathe decisions in prayer and are unified (as leaders) in their decisions.  If you feel strongly that you can believe that about the leaders, then I believe you are in a safe church.

The other main issue for me, personally, is whether there is a "core" of strong believers who are mature and can be seen as "the church within the church".  Those are the people that I will be drawn to and put my trust in to support me and my family in discipleship and in trials.  

There will always be people who are self-serving and divisive.  The question is, do you and the leadership see them and address it before they do real damage to the body.  

I've seen it go unaddressed many times...and it is devastating.  I believe that is why Paul is so urgent in his "appeal" in ch 16.  He's warning them strongly to be vigilant in the body.


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## JB0704 (Mar 12, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Why? What is it you are seeking? It appears to me that you would be better off staying home and studying the warnings in Scripture regarding false prophets, false religion, false teachers, false shepherds etc.
> 
> While Christ walked on the earth, He warned us of the great danger of false prophets and false religion more often than anything else. There is a very real danger here.



I understand and recognize the danger.  But here is where I get confused:

1. I think anybody who has done an good study of the NT would conclude that a Church should be led by elders, not a single man.  However, most churches have a "head pastor" who calls the shots, casts the "vision" (whatever the heck that is), and has final say in _all_ things.  Most folks don't consider that a hill to die for.

2. We have several different denominations with only minimal differences between them.  Old time Presbyterians look a lot like Baptists.  Baptists and Methodists only differ in a few areas.  Catholics and Presbyterians have many similarities and share a common belief in the diety of Christ....what causes these denominational differences, and which differences "matter" when god is sorting us out?

3. The first example is considered minimal by most, the second is not.  Why?


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## Huntinfool (Mar 12, 2012)

> However, most churches have a "head pastor" who calls the shots, casts the "vision" (whatever the heck that is), and has final say in all things.



Many do, yes.  But, honestly, I don't think that most do.  I would say that most actually have some sort of accountability for the head pastor even if it's not elders.  A board of directors, or committee that he's accountable to.  There are more of those than there are churches that are totally led by one person I think.



> 3. The first example is considered minimal by most, the second is not. Why?



I actually think the second example is a MUCH bigger deal.  The first is addressed in Romans 14.  They are preferences.  Some do believe they are deal breaker type issues.  I think that's silly and don't believe a case can be made biblically.


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## JB0704 (Mar 12, 2012)

formula1 said:


> Things that were most important to me when I returned to a church, in order:
> 
> 1) A genuine love for Christ and for others.
> 2) A leadership that is consistant and true and portrays the character of Christ, and does not change with every whim.  This takes some time to see, BTW.
> ...



Thats a good list F1, and I appreciate you passing it along.  I do not know how "sincere" I am at this point, because motivating myself to visit any Church is very difficult.  I also find myself in awkward situations, such as yesterday, where I did not take communion and everybody saw it (it was given as you left the sanctuary and I was in line in front of a bunch of people).

I am just wrestling with how much is too much, or how little is too little, if that makes sense.  I know what I believe, and that is subject to change of course in the event I see I am wrong.

Ideally, your #5 would be my basis for returning a second time to any church.  I think at this point in time I am a bit too judgemental of other Christians, but I am trying to work my way through those thoughts.  In my efforts to be the "grace centered, love everybody" Christian, I have also become a judgemental individual where other Christians are concerned.  That is very wrong of me.


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## JB0704 (Mar 12, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> If you're looking for a church where everyone who attends is in perfect lockstep with the will of God and is living their life in service to him only and you never see a self-motivated person...then you should actually stay home and not waste the effort to visit.  That church does not and cannot exist.  We are fallen people in a fallen world and we all will be motivated, from time to time, by self (which, BTW, is one of the reasons you should look for an elder led church and not a church led by a single person)..



Understood.  See my last paragraph in response to F1.



Huntinfool said:


> The question is whether those who have been given authority as leaders are in that category or not; whether they hold what you know is true doctrinally and whether they bathe decisions in prayer and are unified (as leaders) in their decisions.  If you feel strongly that you can believe that about the leaders, then I believe you are in a safe church.
> 
> The other main issue for me, personally, is whether there is a "core" of strong believers who are mature and can be seen as "the church within the church".  Those are the people that I will be drawn to and put my trust in to support me and my family in discipleship and in trials..



Good thoughts there, but that is hard to find for a newbie.  Typically, particularly in traditional southern churches, it is more of a social scene and finding your way "in" takes some time. 




Huntinfool said:


> There will always be people who are self-serving and divisive.  The question is, do you and the leadership see them and address it before they do real damage to the body.



Again, I am not sure when I am on the side of the "self-serving" or not.  If I believe I am standing up for what is right, then I see no harm.  I have had experiences where this was labeled "naysaying," and frowned upon by the leadership.

I think you are getting to the root of my problem, I don't really trust any leaders.  It would take a huge leap of faith for me to ever feel "connected" to leadership again.


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## JB0704 (Mar 12, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> Many do, yes.  But, honestly, I don't think that most do.  I would say that most actually have some sort of accountability for the head pastor even if it's not elders.  A board of directors, or committee that he's accountable to.  There are more of those than there are churches that are totally led by one person I think..



What I have seen is a trend in contemporary churches for the elders to exist, but vote to affirm the pastor. So, everything comes down to "do you trust the pastor."  It is not a vote on "should this fella be fired, or this building be financed."  It's kind-of a false accountability.  And, the elders are hand-picked nad not selected by the congregation.  But, I am sure that you are right, and I may have jsut been in some very terrible churches.




Huntinfool said:


> I actually think the second example is a MUCH bigger deal.  The first is addressed in Romans 14.  They are preferences.  Some do believe they are deal breaker type issues.  I think that's silly and don't believe a case can be made biblically.



Confused here.  I think a strong case can be made that a head pastor having ultimate authority is nowhere to be found, and is a total construct of man's efforts to force unity.

But, to go with your line of thinking, a church believes in the gift of tongues, and you do not, is that a "deal breaker?"


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## Huntinfool (Mar 12, 2012)

> Again, I am not sure when I am on the side of the "self-serving" or not. If I believe I am standing up for what is right, then I see no harm. I have had experiences where this was labeled "naysaying," and frowned upon by the leadership.



If you're standing up for what you believe is right AND you have strong biblical foundation for it...then you are not being self-serving.

However, we all have to be willing to admit that there are likely more mature believers in a body than we.  I've learned over many years that things that I feel strongly about that go contrary to the leadership in my particular church are many times just me being stubborned and following "self".  It takes time to see that clearly...at least sometimes it does.

Just generally speaking, the leadership in my church OFTEN does things differently than I would do them.  But they have yet to do something that I believe is un- or anti-bibilical and I have no DOUBT as to whether they bathe decisions in prayer and are spirit-led in their leadership.  So I bend to the authority that they hold.  They will be accountable for it one day and they know that.

You're right.  You cannot just walk into a church one time and know whether that "core" is there.  You have to be willing to put yourself out there based on your existing knowledge of the preachers and the leaders.  If they are leading well and biblically, it is likely that mature believers are there somewhere.....right?


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## Huntinfool (Mar 12, 2012)

> Confused here. I think a strong case can be made that a head pastor having ultimate authority is nowhere to be found, and is a total construct of man's efforts to force unity.



Yep...we agree.  Maybe I wasn't clear.  I think it's a big deal if a head pastor is the only decision maker and is in no way accountable to anyone for what he does.  That's a huge problem and will lead to self taking over IMO.



> But, to go with your line of thinking, a church believes in the gift of tongues, and you do not, is that a "deal breaker?"



No...it's not...if a biblical model is followed.  Let's put it this way.  It's possible, but very unlikely that everyone in a particular church is miraculously "gifted" with tongues.  More likely, many of them are faking it to fit in.  But that's just my opinion on it.  I find it hard to believe that a church building could be the dividing line between who is and isn't gifted with that gift.  For a tongues church to be filled with the gift and a non-tongues church 100 yards away to have none seems odd to me.  Is it too far for the Spirit to travel?

To me, this is likely more an issue of believers doing something in an effort to glorify God.  Even if it's misguided, the heart is right in most cases and so, no, it's not a deal breaker.


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 12, 2012)

Hey JB, I did that for about a year after leaving my home church of 40 years. It was a very interesting time. I learned alot. Church leadership differences, preaching styles, etc. I don't regret it. But I later returned to my home church because they had a very nasty split while I was gone. I helped bring some stability by coming back. I had determined that I could not find a church that believed as I did so I may as well take my family back and try to overlook the doctrinal differences. I kept my beliefs in the closet. I eventually could no longer handle the differences. After a three year commitment was up, I disappeared quietly.


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## JB0704 (Mar 12, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> However, we all have to be willing to admit that there are likely more mature believers in a body than we.  I've learned over many years that things that I feel strongly about that go contrary to the leadership in my particular church are many times just me being stubborned and following "self".  It takes time to see that clearly...at least sometimes it does.
> 
> Just generally speaking, the leadership in my church OFTEN does things differently than I would do them.  But they have yet to do something that I believe is un- or anti-bibilical and I have no DOUBT as to whether they bathe decisions in prayer and are spirit-led in their leadership.  So I bend to the authority that they hold.  They will be accountable for it one day and they know that.



You just made a very strong case for personal humility, which should be demonstrated by all, I agree.  But, at some point, we need to believe something.  When that something does not line up with the prayer bathed decision, what is or should be the reaction of the rational believer?



Huntinfool said:


> You're right.  You cannot just walk into a church one time and know whether that "core" is there.  You have to be willing to put yourself out there based on your existing knowledge of the preachers and the leaders.  If they are leading well and biblically, it is likely that mature believers are there somewhere.....right?



Right, but I think F1 nailed it when he said it takes some time to discover if the leadership is true.  But, I need some correcting myself:

1. I got a humility problem.
2. I am too judgemental of Christians (recent discovery).
3. I don't trust people.
4. I don't know when I am right in saying "this is wrong," and where I should bend in order to "get along."

See #4, that is what bothers me the most about my experience yesterday.  My wife really enjoyed the Church we visited, but there were some things that were "off."  Thus the question, how do we know what hills to die for?


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## gemcgrew (Mar 12, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I don't really trust any leaders.



And you shouldn't. The vast majority of the church buildings you will visit are full of goats who think they are sheep and they are being led by a goat who thinks he or she is a sheep.


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## JB0704 (Mar 12, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> No...it's not...if a biblical model is followed.  Let's put it this way.  It's possible, but very unlikely that everyone in a particular church is miraculously "gifted" with tongues.  More likely, many of them are faking it to fit in.  But that's just my opinion on it.  I find it hard to believe that a church building could be the dividing line between who is and isn't gifted with that gift.  For a tongues church to be filled with the gift and a non-tongues church 100 yards away to have none seems odd to me.  Is it too far for the Spirit to travel?
> 
> To me, this is likely more an issue of believers doing something in an effort to glorify God.  Even if it's misguided, the heart is right in most cases and so, no, it's not a deal breaker.



HA!  You and I think a bit alike sometimes (first paragraph).  But, interesting thougts in your last paragraph.  So, do you "judge" the heart of the action?  I think that is too often my problem.......I judge to harshly when it comes to the actions of Christians.  I tend to be a bit "liberal" (I think you know what I am referring too) in my beliefs, so "hard-liners" raise flags.  I am trying very hard to see the spirit of the "hard-line" as well these days. 

But, it has occurred to me that in taking a "hard-line" against "hard-liners" I am exactly what I try not to be.  See how I am confused by all this?


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## JB0704 (Mar 12, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> I eventually could no longer handle the differences. After a three year commitment was up, I disappeared quietly.



So, are you still wandering the wilderness?  I have been for several years now, and it's funny, but this forum has challenged me a lot this past year.  I opened the door to re-visiting church in an effort to appease my wife, but dang, I still got some snakes crawling around upstairs.......they come out every time I walk into a Church.


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## JB0704 (Mar 12, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> And you shouldn't. The vast majority of the church buildings you will visit are full of goats who think they are sheep and they are being led by a goat who thinks he or she is a sheep.



And my problem is determining which is which, and which am I.


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## Huntinfool (Mar 12, 2012)

> But, it has occurred to me that in taking a "hard-line" against "hard-liners" I am exactly what I try not to be. See how I am confused by all this?



I just think you're making it HARD-er than it needs to be.

There is no perfect church.  But there are lots of imperfect churches that are better than "no church".


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## JB0704 (Mar 12, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> I just think you're making it HARD-er than it needs to be.
> 
> There is no perfect church.  But there are lots of imperfect churches that are better than "no church".



How does one compare?  I have used this forum as a tool for spiritual enlightenment and challenging for about a year now, it has worked in many ways.  I do not know that I would have been better in church during that time period.  That could kind-of drag this off in a different direction though.......


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## Huntinfool (Mar 12, 2012)

You're looking for a check sheet.  None of us can give it to you.  All I know to tell you is use your discernment.  

Just based on your posts, I think you're still working on trust issues that may prevent you from being comfortable anywhere at this point.  I ask this honestly...do you think that is something that maybe you're holding onto, but need to turn over to God to deal with?

There's hurt and anger there from past experiences.  But don't you think that hurt and anger is holding you back?  Do you think that possibly Satan is using that hurt to prevent you from better engaging with the body of Christ?

Just something to think on and intended as "spurring" you on...not jabbing at you.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 12, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> How does one compare?



Scripture! If you are not well armed, you are in for a bruising. I had a couple of very sweet older women knock on my door last week. As I stepped out on the porch, one asked if she could share some Scripture with me. In the 15 to 20 minutes they were there, I was able to witness to them both. They denied the deity of Christ and His redemptive work. They left in their folly, comfortable in their deception. They continued on in their search for easy prey and to add to their membership.


----------



## formula1 (Mar 12, 2012)

*Re:*



JB0704 said:


> Ideally, your #5 would be my basis for returning a second time to any church.  I think at this point in time I am a bit too judgemental of other Christians, but I am trying to work my way through those thoughts.  In my efforts to be the "grace centered, love everybody" Christian, I have also become a judgemental individual where other Christians are concerned.  That is very wrong of me.



I know you are grace centered but the balance of truth is equally important. And it also occurs to me that you are not as grace centered as you think if you take a more harsh view of fellow Christians in particular.  But we all have a 'plank' in our eye from time to time.  Just learn to remove it and see what God wants you to see.  It occurs to me just looking at man will almost always deceive you, even when looking at them in the light of your own motivations.

My humble suggestion to you is to try and lay down your motivations for what God desires, in prayer, in His word, in fasting, whatever it takes. That will take a little more humility(and trust in His leading) but I am confident that you can find the mind of Christ in this matter and find where He wants you.  God bless!


----------



## rjcruiser (Mar 12, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Right, but I think F1 nailed it when he said it takes some time to discover if the leadership is true.  But, I need some correcting myself:
> 
> 1. I got a humility problem.
> 2. I am too judgemental of Christians (recent discovery).
> ...



So...what were the issues?  We'll all help you determine whether or not they're right or wrong.  



In all seriousness, I've been in your shoes...and maybe still am in your shoes when it comes to this.  I went to one church for 23 years of my life...then I moved to far away from that church...so my wife and I had to find another.  Well, lets just say in the last 7 years, I've been a regular attendee of 4 different churches...3 of them have split and now the 4th is still going.  But I still wonder, is the church I'm a part of the one that God wants me to be a part of.  And I struggle with a few of the things that are going on, but I'm unsure of whether or not they are preference issues or principal issues.  Tough tough tough...I know.

For me, there are the core doctrinal issues that I can't bend on.

1.  Sufficiency of Christ
2.  Inerrancy of Scripture etc etc

Then, there are the ones that are maybe a little more pliable, but are important

1. Expository Preaching
2. Elder form of Church Govt

Then ther eare the ones that are really not big issues
1. Contemporary/Traditional worship
2. Pews or chairs in the Sanctuary



I think that the fact that you are moving about this decision slowly is key.  Lots of thought, lots of prayer, lots of searching the scriptures will help.  But all that to say, you never really know a church until problems/issues arise.


----------



## JB0704 (Mar 12, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> Just based on your posts, I think you're still working on trust issues that may prevent you from being comfortable anywhere at this point.


 
Absolutely. 



Huntinfool said:


> I ask this honestly...do you think that is something that maybe you're holding onto, but need to turn over to God to deal with?.



Cynicism is a protective measure for those of us who use it to "keep warm."  But, you are right.  It is my responsibility to control my thoughts / actions (no offense to the Calvinists on here).  Again, and not to drag it on, but I firmly believe we should all have a healthy level of skepticism.  I would be on the extreme, admittedly.



Huntinfool said:


> There's hurt and anger there from past experiences.  But don't you think that hurt and anger is holding you back?  Do you think that possibly Satan is using that hurt to prevent you from better engaging with the body of Christ?



I know, and this might ruffle a few feathers, that the hurt is justified.  It is the reaction which is questionable at this time.  That's why I am figuring out how y'all approach al this stuff.  Whether or not it is being used against me, not sure.  Could be.  But, could my stubborn stance against being part of something I have difficulty with be used for good?  I am asking in honesty here....one believer to another.


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## JB0704 (Mar 12, 2012)

formula1 said:


> And it also occurs to me that you are not as grace centered as you think if you take a more harsh view of fellow Christians in particular.  But we all have a 'plank' in our eye from time to time.


 
Yes sir.  And that was what I am getting at. 



formula1 said:


> My humble suggestion to you is to try and lay down your motivations for what God desires, in prayer, in His word, in fasting, whatever it takes. That will take a little more humility(and trust in His leading) but I am confident that you can find the mind of Christ in this matter and find where He wants you.  God bless!



Thanks, F1.  I do appreciate your thoughts.


----------



## JB0704 (Mar 12, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> So...what were the issues?  We'll all help you determine whether or not they're right or wrong.  .



No chance.  I want to keep this thing focused.  But, since you asked I will shoot you a PM.



rjcruiser said:


> In all seriousness, I've been in your shoes...and maybe still am in your shoes when it comes to this.  I went to one church for 23 years of my life...then I moved to far away from that church...so my wife and I had to find another.  Well, lets just say in the last 7 years, I've been a regular attendee of 4 different churches...3 of them have split and now the 4th is still going.  But I still wonder, is the church I'm a part of the one that God wants me to be a part of.  And I struggle with a few of the things that are going on, but I'm unsure of whether or not they are preference issues or principal issues.  Tough tough tough...I know.
> 
> For me, there are the core doctrinal issues that I can't bend on.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your input.  It is interesting that you articulate a "tiered" approach to this.  Similar to what F1 posted.  If I ever get to where I am dilligent and determined to make this work, I might have to organize in such a way.  I am a pretty analytical fella, so this appeals to me.

It's good to know other folks deal with this.  You and F1 have both suggested a similar story.  The idea of 4 churches in 7 years makes my stomache turn.  Kudos to you for sticking with it.  I took my toys and went home.  For now, I have to really motivate myself to walk in a church.  It is very awkward and strange.


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## BrowningFan (Mar 12, 2012)

JB : I would first find out were you stand of far as Doctorine.

If you believe you can lose you Salvation .... Stay away from Baptist or Presbyterian 

If you believe in speaking in tongue maybe you should visit a Church of God or Pentecostal 

If you don't believe in the Virgin Birth , DBR of Christ , H E L L you could visit the Kingdom Hall 

Etc Etc Etc


I think this would be a starting point.


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## JB0704 (Mar 12, 2012)

BrowningFan said:


> JB : I would first find out were you stand of far as Doctorine..



Good thoughts.  Problem with me is that I know where I stand on the "big" issues, listed below.  But, if we are talking accuracy, are small issues also big issues?



BrowningFan said:


> If you believe you can lose you Salvation .... Stay away from Baptist or Presbyterian ..



My knee-jerk reaction says you can't.  There are some very good arguments which say you can.  Waffling on this one a bit.....



BrowningFan said:


> If you believe in speaking in tongue maybe you should visit a Church of God or Pentecostal ..



I don't.  Apologies to those who do.



BrowningFan said:


> If you don't believe in the Virgin Birth , DBR of Christ , H E L L you could visit the Kingdom Hall ..



I do, and those are the "core" beliefs I hold.  DBR in particular, so, JW are out, and I don't believe Joseph Smith (apologies to the very good folks who are also Mormons who read this), so Mormon is out as well.




BrowningFan said:


> I think this would be a starting point.



Yes sir.  Again, though, how far could your church stray from what you believed was "biblically accurate" before you found another church?


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Mar 12, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> So, are you still wandering the wilderness?  I have been for several years now, and it's funny, but this forum has challenged me a lot this past year.  I opened the door to re-visiting church in an effort to appease my wife, but dang, I still got some snakes crawling around upstairs.......they come out every time I walk into a Church.


Hey JB, I have given up. I wish I could find fellowship. I miss the volleyball games in my back yard when my class would challenge the youth. Good times. But I do not miss the ritualistic aspect. The robotic attendance, doing the same thing over and over. Listening to a James Dobson/Joel Olsteen wanna be. I do hope you can break through the cycle to find where you belong. But I fear you may end up like me. Once you start to question things, it only gets worse.


----------



## rjcruiser (Mar 12, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> No chance.  I want to keep this thing focused.  But, since you asked I will shoot you a PM.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It is awkward and strange trying to find a church.  I find it disheartening.  

Why?  I feel like I'm analyzing everything the pastor says.  For instance, I went to a different church than my own this past Sunday (Nephew was being baptized).  So...I was analyzing, would I want to go to this church in the future?  Little things such as, how much scripture was used in the message, people raising their hands during the songtime, having an alter call at the end of the service, people voicing amens after the preacher said something profound, the sermon series itself etc etc.

I guess I'd have a sheet of paper and after the sermon, write down with your wife the positives you saw in the church visit...and then write down the negatives.  Then, go through each one and determine if they're Biblical/Principle issues or if there preference issues.

Also, I don't know if you can determine a church in one visit.  I know I had a few one church visits where I did because of things my wife and I knew we couldn't overlook, but there were others where we went several times to figure it out.


----------



## gemcgrew (Mar 12, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> My knee-jerk reaction says you can't.  There are some very good arguments which say you can.  Waffling on this one a bit.....



If you are struggling with this, how are you going to discern between truth and non truth while visiting multiple churches? If you think you are confused now, hold on to your hat! Stay at home and study! At this time, it does not appear that you are equipped to make that decision for your family. JMO


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## BrowningFan (Mar 12, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Good thoughts.  Problem with me is that I know where I stand on the "big" issues, listed below.  But, if we are talking accuracy, are small issues also big issues?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





I don't think the small issues are worth leaving a church over. Church for me is for fellowship with believers , I like good preaching also. I go to a church that is not KJV and I'm as strong in the KJV  department as anyone on this planet . That's me showing GRACE. I have close friends that do home church and they love it , but I need a break from the kids , I believe you should be like minded on the big issues , but if it's not about major Doctrine things find a church that is fun and doesn't hit you up for cash all the time.


----------



## gemcgrew (Mar 12, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> It is awkward and strange trying to find a church.  I find it disheartening.



What a daunting task, huh? Lets say one narrows it down to Baptist. Only then to find out that there are many camps in the denomination. Each camp views the other as heretical.


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## JB0704 (Mar 12, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Each camp views the other as heretical.



They absolutely do.


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## centerpin fan (Mar 12, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Stay at home and study!



Many people do, and they still end up at very different churches.  Snake handlers do what they do because of a verse in the Bible.  Mormons baptize for the dead for the same reason.  On a less extreme note, Calvinists and non-Calvinists, KJV-only and NIV lovers, tongue speakers and non all came to their conclusions through study.


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## JB0704 (Mar 12, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Many people do, and they still end up at very different churches.  Snake handlers do what they do because of a verse in the Bible.  Mormons baptize for the dead for the same reason.  On a less extreme note, Calvinists and non-Calvinists, KJV-only and NIV lovers, tongue speakers and non all came to their conclusions through study.





You're not helping


----------



## centerpin fan (Mar 12, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> You're not helping



Three words for you:

Magic Eight Ball


----------



## gemcgrew (Mar 12, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> On a less extreme note, Calvinists and non-Calvinists, KJV-only and NIV lovers, tongue speakers and non all came to their conclusions through study.



I wouldn't say all. I know some Calvinist who do not study much of anything. They just like being called a Calvinist.


----------



## JB0704 (Mar 12, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Three words for you:
> 
> Magic Eight Ball



In depth, and heartfelt.  I appreciate it!


----------



## gemcgrew (Mar 12, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Three words for you:
> 
> Magic Eight Ball



"Outlook not so good" comes to mind.


----------



## BrowningFan (Mar 12, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Many people do, and they still end up at very different churches.  Snake handlers do what they do because of a verse in the Bible.  Mormons baptize for the dead for the same reason.  On a less extreme note, Calvinists and non-Calvinists, KJV-only and NIV lovers, tongue speakers and non all came to their conclusions through study.



Or from forming their Doctrine in the Book of Act ( It's a transitional book from OT to NT and Paul wasn't yet given the Mystery of the Church by God yet) Most false teaches by origin starts in the Book of Acts


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## JB0704 (Mar 12, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> "Outlook not so good" comes to mind.



Seriously, fellas?  A guy asks a a question of other believers, and you think the way to go is to belittle the process?  I don't believe like you, so we can liken my approach to a fella shaking a magic 8 ball?  Then laugh while we assume the answer is not knowable?

I could go back to just being an instigator on here, that would be fine with me.  Just thought I could have a conversation.


----------



## centerpin fan (Mar 12, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Seriously, fellas?  A guy asks a a question of other believers, and you think the way to go is to belittle the process?  I don't believe like you, so we can liken my approach to a fella shaking a magic 8 ball?  Then laugh while we assume the answer is not knowable?
> 
> I could go back to just being an instigator on here, that would be fine with me.  Just thought I could have a conversation.



Just keep doing what you're doing.  You'll be fine.


----------



## formula1 (Mar 12, 2012)

*Re:*



JB0704 said:


> Thanks, F1.  I do appreciate your thoughts.



For the record, the simple fact that you are interested in trying to find a church says something good about you.

And just so you know, I went to the church I am now in for 3 years before I committed to it.  The willingness to listen and time are your friends.  Test every spirit!   God bless!


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## JB0704 (Mar 12, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Just keep doing what you're doing.  You'll be fine.



Being an instigator or searching for a church?  Was your point to let me know that I should not ask y'all questions, but instead just "go with whatever pops up?"

I would not have posted anything if I thought I had all the answers.


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## centerpin fan (Mar 12, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> ... searching for a church?



Bingo!


----------



## BrowningFan (Mar 12, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Just keep doing what you're doing.  You'll be fine.



I agree .... And it can be fun.


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## JB0704 (Mar 12, 2012)

BrowningFan said:


> .... And it can be fun.



I have never heard anybody say church shopping was fun.  Maybe if I timed it so I could take advantage of pot-luck dinners, that could be fun.


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## thedeacon (Mar 12, 2012)

You seem to looking for someone else to tell you what you should do, that is impossible. You have to look for yourself.

I can't answer you questions because I am not now and have never looked for another church to go to. I have been in the same church all my life, so far.

I have however changed congregations to better suit me and my family. When I moved from one town to another I looked in the same belief for the congregation that I liked the best.

When I somewhere new I try to fit in with them and not expect them to fit with me.

Befor I place membership I always pay close attention to see if they are teaching what I believe to be the truth.

So far I have only had trouble one time finding a pleasing transaction.

Good luck, and please get your family involved with a group of saints, there is strength in numbers, strength in  having brothers and sisters surrounging you in prayer, exhortation, study and love.

God bless


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## rjcruiser (Mar 12, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Three words for you:
> 
> Magic Eight Ball





Now...the doctrinal question is...is the message that pops up preordained by God?





JB0704 said:


> I have never heard anybody say church shopping was fun.  Maybe if I timed it so I could take advantage of pot-luck dinners, that could be fun.



Church shopping is never fun imho.  It is the worst thing I've ever experienced.


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## JB0704 (Mar 12, 2012)

thedeacon said:


> You seem to looking for someone else to tell you what you should do, that is impossible. You have to look for yourself.



Not at all.  I am asking what y'all look for, run from, etc.  I can use your thoughts / persective to weigh my own against.  It was just a question.



thedeacon said:


> I can't answer you questions because I am not now and have never looked for another church to go to. I have been in the same church all my life, so far.
> 
> I have however changed congregations to better suit me and my family. When I moved from one town to another I looked in the same belief for the congregation that I liked the best.
> 
> ...



Thanks for you story and input.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 12, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Three words for you:
> 
> Magic Eight Ball



I think this was meant as a joke. Sometimes these things just pop into your head and you post one now and then.


----------



## gemcgrew (Mar 12, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Seriously, fellas?  A guy asks a a question of other believers, and you think the way to go is to belittle the process?  I don't believe like you, so we can liken my approach to a fella shaking a magic 8 ball?  Then laugh while we assume the answer is not knowable?
> 
> I could go back to just being an instigator on here, that would be fine with me.  Just thought I could have a conversation.



JB, I have given it a lot of thought today and have been honest with my comments. Center Pin Fan's 8 ball comment made me laugh at the right time. I sincerely understand your dilemma and it has weighed heavily on me.


----------



## centerpin fan (Mar 12, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think this was meant as a joke.



Oh, absolutely.




Artfuldodger said:


> Sometimes these things just pop into your head and you post one now and then.



You'd be amazed at what pops into my head.


----------



## stringmusic (Mar 12, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> Now...the doctrinal question is...is the message that pops up preordained by God?





We might be able to get away with the thread "the magic 8 ball", the mods wont notice...


----------



## BrowningFan (Mar 12, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> Now...the doctrinal question is...is the message that pops up preordained by God?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Doctrine is a big issue IGO : 2 Timothy 4:3  For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;


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## JB0704 (Mar 12, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> JB, I have given it a lot of thought today and have been honest with my comments. Center Pin Fan's 8 ball comment made me laugh at the right time. I sincerely understand your dilemma and it has weighed heavily on me.



Thanks, and I understand.  I guess I was a bit sensitive about it all.  Much like it gave you a good laugh at the right time, it had the opposite effect for me. 

I know CP tends to toss out some quick responses, just didn't expect it here.  It is the internet.....I need to lighten up.  Your thoughts are appreciated.


----------



## BrowningFan (Mar 12, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Thanks, and I understand.  I guess I was a bit sensitive about it all.  Much like it gave you a good laugh at the right time, it had the opposite effect for me.
> 
> I know CP tends to toss out some quick responses, just didn't expect it here.  It is the internet.....I need to lighten up.  Your thoughts are appreciated.



Just wait you may be able to catch a Monte Python video also.


----------



## JB0704 (Mar 12, 2012)

BrowningFan said:


> Just wait you may be able to caught a Monte Python video also.



I've caught a few of those in the past. Somewhat demeaning of a person's position.  I was initially going to delete the thread, but thought better of it.  There was some good conversation in the first 50 posts or so.


----------



## hummerpoo (Mar 12, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Cynicism is a protective measure for those of us who use it to "keep warm."  But, you are right.  It is my responsibility to control my thoughts / actions (no offense to the Calvinists on here).  Again, and not to drag it on, but I firmly believe we should all have a healthy level of skepticism.  I would be on the extreme, admittedly.



Skepticism..........good.
Cynicism.......not good.
I have to remind myself of this all the time.


JB, I’m afraid this may not be helpful but your thread is related to my experience.
About a mile after leaving the church house yesterday I said.  “It just makes you want to not go to church at all and just stay home doesn’t it?”  My wife’s response was, “Yes, that’s been pressing on me lately too”.  Then we had the events and conversations which brought those statements out of us for lunch.
About an hour ago I asked my Sweetheart.  “I haven’t heard a word from God about leaving this church, have you?”  Her response, “No, darn it”
We are not “members” of this church but have been faithful attendee’s for just over a year.  I even taught there for a couple of months on a substitute basis.  The church has been without a pastor for about half the time we have been there.
In the 14 yrs. we have been married we’ve gone to four different churches (3 yrs, 2 yrs., 8 yrs., 1 yr).  We never left a church mad, we left because we felt God was telling us to leave and we never knew where we were going.  Only on the last move did we “look” at a church that we did not settle into (we went to a church for four weeks and I have a feeling that we may end up back there someday).  We have felt guided in each case.

If God were to put us anywhere that is 40% Kingdom and 60% world, the improvement would put us on our knees begging to stay, but in our case it's nothing to do with what we want.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 12, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I've caught a few of those in the past. Somewhat demeaning of a person's position.  I was initially going to delete the thread, but thought better of it.  There was some good conversation in the first 50 posts or so.


Uh oh, I slipped one of those in. I didn't start the "Blazing Saddles" slip ins although I did respond with one or two.

Like you JB i've been doing a lot of Bible study the last couple of years. You've given me some good encouragement in my quest. Others think I have a beef with the Baptist, my former church, elders, etc. They think if you were born a Baptist, you should die a Baptist.


----------



## JB0704 (Mar 12, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> JB, I’m afraid this may not be helpful but your thread is related to my experience.
> About a mile after leaving the church house yesterday I said.  “It just makes you want to not go to church at all and just stay home doesn’t it?”  My wife’s response was, “Yes, that’s been pressing on me lately too”.  Then we had the events and conversations which brought those statements out of us for lunch.
> About an hour ago I asked my Sweetheart.  “I haven’t heard a word from God about leaving this church, have you?”  Her response, “No, darn it”
> We are not “members” of this church but have been faithful attendee’s for just over a year.  I even taught there for a couple of months on a substitute basis.  The church has been without a pastor for about half the time we have been there.
> ...



Thanks for sharing HP, and it's always good to get insight from you.  It is helpful in that you try to follow to where God was leading.  This is an area I am absolutely miserable at.  I tend to think I know the solution based on precedent.  As in "X happened so this doesn't work," instead of praying it over, and reading up on it. This has played out a lot for me recently.  I usually "know" my answer before I walk in / out the door....and I know that isn't as it should be.


----------



## JB0704 (Mar 12, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Uh oh, I slipped one of those in. I didn't start the "Blazing Saddles" slip ins although I did respond with one or two..



My favorite snarky videos are from SouthPark, but I try to avoid that when somebody is having a serious discussion.  People shut down and close off what otherwise could be a very productive discussion when they are not taken seriously.



Artfuldodger said:


> Like you JB i've been doing a lot of Bible study the last couple of years. You've given me some good encouragement in my quest. Others think I have a beef with the Baptist, my former church, elders, etc. They think if you were born a Baptist, you should die a Baptist.



Yea, all my family is Baptist.  So, visiting other denoms is very different than anything I have done.  I pretty much grew up believing only Baptists were gettin' to heaven.  Visiting a Methodist church would be considered heresy.  Now, some of the most spiritual people I know are from all different denoms.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Mar 13, 2012)

Hey JB, don't beat yourself up over this. It may be that your exactly where your supposed to be. Your learning more than you realize. I can only explain it this way. I learned just how much I love my wife partially from dating girls that I did not like so much. So, if you do find a church that you feel you belong, you will invest yourself in the program. That analogy began to break down about half way through. LOL.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Mar 13, 2012)

In God's economy, there is no Baptist or Methodist. What you have to watch for is where one belief system suppresses true doctrine in fear of giving approval to another. Kind of like one ball team trying to beat the other. For example, I can't recall the specifics at this point, either 40 days, or is it 50 days after the resurection, is the day that the Holy Spirit made his glorious "debut" upon mankind. I remember one year when this fell on a sunday. But the baptist suppressed this knowledge in fear of validating the pentacostals. What a shame. It should have been celebrated but was never even mentioned. You would think that all the pomp of the baptist literature, [lifeway], would at least acknowledge this foundational event in the life of the church. The day the church was birthed


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## hummerpoo (Mar 13, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Thanks for sharing HP, and it's always good to get insight from you.  It is helpful in that you try to follow to where God was leading.  This is an area I am absolutely miserable at.  I tend to think I know the solution based on precedent.  As in "X happened so this doesn't work," instead of praying it over, and reading up on it. This has played out a lot for me recently.  I usually "know" my answer before I walk in / out the door....and I know that isn't as it should be.



It's going to be tough to walk in that door next Sunday morning, but we will be there.

1 gr8bldr said something really important, "Hey JB, don't beat yourself up over this. It may be that your exactly where your supposed to be."  God knows what He is doing.  Just work on seeing what it is so that you are a can be a willing part of it.  The result is called joy.


----------



## Huntinfool (Mar 13, 2012)

> Skepticism..........good.
> Cynicism.......not good.
> I have to remind myself of this all the time.



Excellent thought and I think gets at the heart of the issue.


----------



## gemcgrew (Mar 13, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I am asking what y'all look for, run from, etc.



You can weed out most just by visiting their website. Not having one is not necessarily a bad thing.

Here are some things that would trouble me:

Creeds and/or a confession of faith.

Signs such as "Come Sunday and see Pastor Smith kiss a pig", "Let go and let God", "Hatfield and McCoy days", "Church for people who don't like Church", "Mega church with contemporary service", "Membership dues include access to Indoor swimming pool and bowling lanes" etc.

After I narrowed the list, I would drive by the church. If the parking lot and building remind me of city hall or the convention center, its not for me.

While visiting, if the preacher's sermon leaves me uncertain where he stands on the topic of his message, its not for me.

20 minutes of music followed by 20 minutes of preaching and then 20 minutes of invitation, its not for me.


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## JB0704 (Mar 13, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Signs such as "Come Sunday and see Pastor Smith kiss a pig", "Let go and let God", "Hatfield and McCoy days", "Church for people who don't like Church", "Mega church with contemporary service", "Membership dues include access to Indoor swimming pool and bowling lanes" etc.
> 
> After I narrowed the list, I would drive by the church. If the parking lot and building remind me of city hall or the convention center, its not for me.
> 
> ...



You and I just found an awful lot of common ground.

I understand the things folks put on the Church sign, but man it they can get goofy abou it.

The one I highlighted in red is a new thing, and it is an appeal to a younger generation and folks like me.  The ones I have been to that advertised simlarly were the very cold contemporary ones.  Lots of fluff, little substance.


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## rjcruiser (Mar 13, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Lots of fluff, little substance.



And that is why it is for people who don't like church.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 13, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> The one I highlighted in red is a new thing



Welcome to Modernism. Where preaching is reduced to one man trying to influence another man's will. The means is justified if the preacher can only get the sinner to "decide for Jesus."


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 13, 2012)

1) DBR of Christ


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## JB0704 (Mar 13, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> Excellent thought and I think gets at the heart of the issue.



You judging me?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 13, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> You can weed out most just by visiting their website.
> 
> Signs such as "Come Sunday and see Pastor Smith kiss a pig", "Let go and let God", "Hatfield and McCoy days", "Church for people who don't like Church", "Mega church with contemporary service", "Membership dues include access to Indoor swimming pool and bowling lanes" etc.
> 
> ...



At what point do you draw the line at what a church has? Is a nursery over the limit, a church bulletin? Perhaps church in a tent saving more money for mission work. You could sit there in the summer in long sleeves and sweat as in making a personal sacrifice.


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## centerpin fan (Mar 13, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Here are some things that would trouble me:
> 
> Creeds and/or a confession of faith.



Why does that bother you?


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## mtnwoman (Mar 13, 2012)

JB, I agree with going online and reading mission statements of churches you are interested in. I didn't mean to be short earlier when I said you'll know it when you get there....but really you will. 

We all like and need different things. I need to hear a bible teacher more than I need a preacher preaching heckfire and brimstone....I know all that, that's why I'm there. We need it sometimes but not all the time. Some people need it more and should choose a church accordingly.

I love praise and worship, because I also need that down in my spirit. A church full of people praising God/Jesus in song is awesome to me, and humbles me to my knees. I like a pastor who teaches something and then has an ending that nails what he has said. I can't follow someone who's all over the place.  Start with scripture and teach us what it means or how it relates to the OT or to prophesy or something. Or preach a whole book in sequence or do a bible study for a period of time on the same subject.

I won't always agree with everything and I stay out of church business....I know and trust the people at my church, if I had a doubt or there were always problems, I'd have to run far away.

I don't do snakes, or speaking in tongues....not dissing or denying those things, I don't do them.

We don't do a long invitation, sometimes it just happens if the Holy Spirit takes over and thank God He does in my church.  Most of the time it is a prayer and the pastor will say, see me after the service if you want to talk.

I like missions.
I give and trust God will take care of it and not wonder where the money goes, or justify NOT giving because I'm distrustful. God knows my heart and I'll do what He asks me to do, if at all possible. I give in faith, just like I live in faith.

I sit up front and don't belong to a click and don't need to or want to. I know a lot of people, but I don't need to sit in the back and watch what everyone else is doing. I sit up front so I can pay attention to the word.

I like a seperate childrens church, too...and I mean actual church, not play time. I think children should learn the milk of the word before they sit in on the meat of the word, just like I did. 

I go in with blinders on and come out with blinders on, I'm totally not into soaps, and if we have any at my church, I don't know, I don't look. I'm there to learn more about Jesus.



I attend an Independant Baptist Church and sometimes a Southern Baptist Mega Church...both have good pastors and if I were to say what's the most important thing, it would be the preacher/teacher of the word.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 13, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Why does that bother you?



No creed but Holy Scripture. No confession of faith but the Word. It is the subtle heresies tucked away inside these confessions that troubles me.


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## centerpin fan (Mar 13, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> No creed but Holy Scripture. No confession of faith but the Word. It is the subtle heresies tucked away inside these confessions that troubles me.



So, you don't even like the Westminster Confession?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 13, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> So, you don't even like the Westminster Confession?


What about the Nicene Creed?


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## centerpin fan (Mar 13, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> What about the Nicene Creed?



Are you asking me or gemcgrew?


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## gemcgrew (Mar 13, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> So, you don't even like the Westminster Confession?



I don't like some of the contents tucked inside. Legalism, conditional grace, sacramentalism...


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 13, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Are you asking me or gemcgrew?



Gemcgrew


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