# Question for the non-believers



## donjon25 (May 26, 2009)

Will the rapture convince you that there really is a God?  I know you don't believe in this event, but hypothetically speaking if you will, when ALL children and millions of Christians "suddenly disappear", will you believe then?

If you've never heard of the rapture, it is when God takes his people out of earth (dead in Christ, followed by those alive) and makes way for the great tribulation to begin.


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## GAX (May 26, 2009)

I don't know what exact events will take place, when the rapture does happen.... I know it will happen, just not sure how.

I think for the non believers, it will look like a "hostile" alien abduction, furthering their disbelief in God, cause he wasn't there to stop it..

Just a Theory.......


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## WTM45 (May 26, 2009)

Revelations was written by a man banished to an island (Patmos) where mental cases were sent.
Dreams.  Illusions.  Fantasies.  Visions.

Wanna stir up a real discussion?  Show your biblical evidence supporting the pre-trib rapture.  I'm sure someone will come along to refute the interpretation!


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## christianhunter (May 26, 2009)

They will believe a lie.They will also think anti-christ is god,simply because they can see him.He will perform miracles,and only those who do not accept the mark will be saved.


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## christianhunter (May 26, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Revelations was written by a man banished to an island (Patmos) where mental cases were sent.
> Dreams.  Illusions.  Fantasies.  Visions.
> 
> Wanna stir up a real discussion?  Show your biblical evidence supporting the pre-trib rapture.  I'm sure someone will come along to refute the interpretation!



WTM,no offense and no attack.You are under an illusion of satan now as we type.


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## WTM45 (May 26, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> WTM,no offense and no attack.You are under an illusion of satan now as we type.






No offense taken!

What are you under the influence of, my friend?


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## ToLog (May 26, 2009)

it's not my interest to open a can of worms here, whatsoever.  my concern is that the ancient writers, being dedicated, and honest in their desire to "write-down" their understandings, visions, truths revealed, and general history were under the influence of rye, oaks, wheat or corn,  or other grains that had been affected by fungus of various types?

fungus, when injested with grain, as a part of bread, liquid, etc. could have had a physiologic effect upon the Writer?? i don't really know, but was it possible?  i think it was. those fungus, a member of the Earth, wanted to be a part of the total/Final Solution.

so, did the food source of the cave-dwellers influence their words, and writings?  i'm not sure. Neither is anyone else, in so far as i know.


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## heavymetalhunter (May 26, 2009)

as ive always said....

as an atheist, if god were 100% scientifically proven to exist, i would begin to believe immediately.

however, if god were 100% proven to not exist, christians would still believe god did exist.


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## Miguel Cervantes (May 26, 2009)

ToLog said:


> it's not my interest to open a can of worms here, whatsoever. my concern is that the ancient writers, being dedicated, and honest in their desire to "write-down" their understandings, visions, truths revealed, and general history were under the influence of rye, oaks, wheat or corn, or other grains that had been affected by fungus of various types?
> 
> fungus, when injested with grain, as a part of bread, liquid, etc. could have had a physiologic effect upon the Writer?? i don't really know, but was it possible? i think it was. those fungus, a member of the Earth, wanted to be a part of the total/Final Solution.
> 
> so, did the food source of the cave-dwellers influence their words, and writings? i'm not sure. Neither is anyone else, in so far as i know.


 
Sorry for the copy and paste, but there is plenty of evidence to suggest this wasn't the case. Even the pre-flood inhabitants of the earth had fire, as they forged bronze into weapons, thus they had the ability to use fire to cook their food as well.

Here's some more, this is merely an excerpt from a long article. There are millions like this out there. Google is your friend;

http://www.ou.org/shabbat/recipes/tent.htm

At first, the primary uses of grains were roasted and boiled to make gruels ("dysah" in Hebrew).  When people accidentally dropped some of the porridges into campfires, they discovered that the baked mishaps were tastier than the mush, creating the first rudimentary breads.  Between 2,000 and 3,000 BCE, cooks discovered how to make leavened wheat breads from wild yeast, prompting the desire for high-gluten flour, such as durum.  Meanwhile, common wheat (T. vulgare or T. aestivum), a high-gluten cross between cultivated emmer and a wild grass (Aegilops speltoides), gradually spread from its home in the Caspian plains and superseded the other grains, becoming the source of most modern flour. 

The Misnah (Challah 1:1) listed five varieties of grain that are subject to taking challah and the other agricultural laws of Israel, "chittim, se'orim, kusmin, shibbolet shi'al, and shippon."  Chittim is wheat, which by Talmudic times consisted of two primary species, durum and common wheat.  Se'orim refers to 6- and 4-rowed barley, two of the three forms grown in ancient Israel.  Kusmin, called kusemet in the Torah and associated with food for the poor (Ezekiel 4:9), is probably emmer.  Shibbolet shi'al may be 2-rowed barley and, indeed, it and se'orim were considered as one species in regards to kilayim (prohibition of mixing heterogeneous plants in one field) (Mishnah Kilayim 1:1).  Shippon refers to either spelt, a species of wheat, or einkorn, the granddaddy of all modern wheat.  Since shippon and kusmin were considered as one species in regards to kilayim (1:1), spelt is the more likelier choice as it is a closer relative to emmer.  Oats and rye, which shibbolet shi'al and shippon are commonly mistranslated, neither grew in Israel at that time nor are closely related to the various species of wheat.


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## Miguel Cervantes (May 26, 2009)

heavymetalhunter said:


> as ive always said....
> 
> as an atheist, if god were 100% scientifically proven to exist, i would begin to believe immediately.
> 
> however, if god were 100% proven to not exist, christians would still believe god did exist.


 
To first prove a theory, you must disprove it's possibility, that has yet to be done. This in and of itself must tell you something?


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## ToLog (May 26, 2009)

scooter1 said:


> Sorry for the copy and paste, but there is plenty of evidence to suggest this wasn't the case. Even the pre-flood inhabitants of the earth had fire, as they forged bronze into weapons, thus they had the ability to use fire to cook their food as well.
> 
> Here's some more, this is merely an excerpt from a long article. There are millions like this out there. Google is your friend;
> 
> ...



heh, Man, i can't, in good faith, disagree with a single, solitary thing you just posted.  it is good info.  Thanks for the post.

i was just thinking that the shift in the cultural world, between the hunters/fishermen and the fixed settle-ment agriculturists took some effort towards adaptation?

beyond that, if spoiled grain is fed to prisoners, who subsist in caves, what would be the effect of the spoilage on their Writings?  i don't know. but the point is, it couldn't be Healthy, could it??


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## pnome (May 26, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> Will the rapture convince you that there really is a God?



Yes.

That would certainly constitute "extraordinary evidence"


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## WTM45 (May 26, 2009)

pnome said:


> Yes.
> 
> That would certainly constitute "extraordinary evidence"



Let's say something like a mass dissappearance occurs.
But, many big named ministers, deacons, missionaries and various positions of the Vatican are still here.
What then?
How can it be proven who was/is a Christian?


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## pnome (May 26, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Let's say something like a mass dissappearance occurs.
> But, many big named ministers, deacons, missionaries and various positions of the Vatican are still here.
> What then?
> How can it be proven who was/is a Christian?



Apparently they were not "real" Christians.  I think it would be proven at that point. That whoever was missing was a "real" Christian and everyone else not.  

It's important to have a set of conditions where your theory is falsifiable. 

A popular example of something that will falsify Evolution is "*fossil rabbits in the Precambrian*"  If that discovery was made, evolution would be simply wrong.


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## GAX (May 26, 2009)

Let's just say, for the sake of argument, (since usually, from what I've seen, everything in this forum is answered with a question), but,that the "rapture" has already happened, and we were all left behind... 
What now? Are we just to "fight it out"?


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## earl (May 26, 2009)

''a God'' yes
your God   no


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## WTM45 (May 26, 2009)

pnome said:


> Apparently they were not "real" Christians.  I think it would be proven at that point. That whoever was missing was a "real" Christian and everyone else not.



Not necessarily true.  There would be NO proof that it was the God of Abraham that took those who are gone.
Will he leave a note?  Will there be an announcement?

What if most of the world's missing were from China, the former Soviet Union or Asia?

I could not see it would be definitive of the cause or origin in the least.


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## Six million dollar ham (May 26, 2009)

The rapture will convince me indeed.  The crapper though is that I don't see one in the forecast.  Ever.


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## footjunior (May 26, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> Will the rapture convince you that there really is a God?  I know you don't believe in this event, but hypothetically speaking if you will, when ALL children and millions of Christians "suddenly disappear", will you believe then?



Yes. I would believe.


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## pnome (May 26, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Not necessarily true.  There would be NO proof that it was the God of Abraham that took those who are gone.
> Will he leave a note?  Will there be an announcement?
> 
> What if most of the world's missing were from China, the former Soviet Union or Asia?
> ...




But we're not talking about just a simple mass disappearance of random people.   Were talking about a mass disappearance of Christians.


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## WTM45 (May 26, 2009)

pnome said:


> But we're not talking about just a simple mass disappearance of random people.   Were talking about a mass disappearance of Christians.




But, that is precisely what I am getting at.  How would anybody know exactly who was Christian, and who was not?  The same folks who try to do that today by "fruits."

The assumption would be made those who were still here were not, but there is no proof either way.
Many will be adamant they are Christians, and were not taken so it can not be the real thing.
There would be enough folks remaining for services the following Sunday morning, I'd bet.

I still wait for the argument between those who believe pre-trib vs. post-trib.


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## pnome (May 26, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> But, that is precisely what I am getting at.  How would anybody know exactly who was Christian, and who was not?  The same folks who try to do that today by "fruits."
> 
> The assumption would be made those who were still here were not, but there is no proof either way.
> Many will be adamant they are Christians, and were not taken so it can not be the real thing.
> ...



Well, it'll all be a moot point anyway.  I don't think there is any escape for those "left behind" at least, AFAIK


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## Dixie Dawg (May 26, 2009)

Yeah, the rapture would convince me.

But I quit looking at the sky for Jesus a long time ago......


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## PWalls (May 26, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Revelations was written by a man banished to an island (Patmos) where mental cases were sent.
> Dreams.  Illusions.  Fantasies.  Visions.



Technically, it is the Book of Revelation. There was only one. There were not a bunch of "revelations".

Also, the book was written by a man, but inspired by God.

That makes all the difference. Helps to understand the Book even better when you grasp that and have faith in it.


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## PWalls (May 26, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> But, that is precisely what I am getting at.  How would anybody know exactly who was Christian, and who was not?  The same folks who try to do that today by "fruits."
> 
> The assumption would be made those who were still here were not, but there is no proof either way.
> Many will be adamant they are Christians, and were not taken so it can not be the real thing.
> ...




The very nature and definition of the Rapture means that if you were left behind, then you were not Christian. There is no "opinion" in the process or chance of error.


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## WTM45 (May 26, 2009)

PWalls said:


> Technically, it is the Book of Revelation. There was only one. There were not a bunch of "revelations".
> 
> Also, the book was written by a man, but inspired by God.
> 
> That makes all the difference. Helps to understand the Book even better when you grasp that and have faith in it.




I was following in the tone of one of my former Baptist ministers, as I can still hear his voice....."Folks, turn in your Bibles to Revelations chapter one!"


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## WTM45 (May 26, 2009)

PWalls said:


> The very nature and definition of the Rapture means that if you were left behind, then you were not Christian. There is no "opinion" in the process or chance of error.



"Opinion" is at the very heart of the whole book.  Too many theologians have varied opinions on it, and some have even denied acceptance of it altogether.
It was not always a part of the canon, and so many have argued the interpretations it would be purely speculation as to the validity of its original intent or meanings.

Yes, I'd freely admit it would take faith to believe and even attempt to make sense of it.  But that is what most believers do.  Just take it as being real.


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## Dixie Dawg (May 27, 2009)

PWalls said:


> Also, the book was written by a man, but inspired by God.



According to man......


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## jojo3587 (May 27, 2009)

*rapture*



donjon25 said:


> Will the rapture convince you that there really is a God?  I know you don't believe in this event, but hypothetically speaking if you will, when ALL children and millions of Christians "suddenly disappear", will you believe then?
> 
> If you've never heard of the rapture, it is when God takes his people out of earth (dead in Christ, followed by those alive) and makes way for the great tribulation to begin.



The bible does not teach the rapture, on the contrary, read Exekiez 13-18 thru 20. He,s against those who teach his people to fly. Jesus is comming here, why do you want to leave???????


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## jojo3587 (May 27, 2009)

The Rapture started in 1830, when a mentally disturbed woman named Margret Montomery had a vision. There were a couple of Jimmy Swaggarts standing around and spread the word. Its been the doctrine of many christians since. Like the any moment doctrine in 1st thess: 4-15 thru the meet the Lord in the air. But the subjest is in verse 13. Where the dead are, in which coencides with 1st cor 15-52. The 7th trump. We will all be changed in a moment, in the twinking of an eye. According to the oppostle Paul in the 2nd letter, he said do not be confused about the Gathering???? for this shall not happen until the man of sin be revealed. He also said there will be no sign given to you, HUH, what about this womans vision?? except the prophet Jona. Signs are for the Jews. When you die, you will be on one side of the gulf or the other, after all, judgement day hasent happened yet, has it?? Or when you rapture out, are you already judged?? Oh my goodness. Look up the word air. It means to breath or blow. In othere words, for ever. You spiritual body is no longer mortal. The devil comes at the sixth trump, and the whole world will follow him. He will perfor miricles in the sight of men, christians. Those who know the difference will overcome. Read Matthew 24. After the tribulation. Who is he talking to?? YOU. Have a great day in the Lord. Phil


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## donjon25 (May 27, 2009)

Thank you all for responding, but a special thanks to pnome, earl, 6mdh, footjunior, and dixie dawg for actually answering the question.

Personally, if I didn't believe, I think the rapture would be a clincher for me.  However, even this event won't shake some.

No one knows when the rapture will happen but the Bible does say we will know the seasons and see the signs and know that it is near.  Dixie Dawg, I'm sorry you quit watching for now it is closer than ever.  Here are but a few signs telling us it us near:

1.  Peace in Israel (all over the news).
2.  Rebuilding of "the temple" (blue prints already laid out).
3.  One world government = one world currency = one world Leader (anti-christ).  (The New world order).
4.  Extraordinary wealth comes to Israel, they will find oil = will be hated even more by the world.
5.  Syria will try to drive Israel into the Sea, Israel will retaliate and literally destroy Damascus (Syria).  Israel will be hated even more!
6.  Russia, (as the former USSR), along with Iran, Germany, Ethiopia, Libya and a host of nations (probably UN coalition) will come to take a spoil of the restored wealth of Israel.  God will supernatrually destroy 5/6 of the armies of these nations (WWIII (this is not armageddon)).  This will be at today's West Bank.  This is what will lead Israel back to national worship of Jehovah God and they will restore the levitical priesthood and animal sacrifice.  Which will lead to rebuilding the temple.

**These things, not necessarily in this order, will happen.  **

Every human on earth will be required to take a "mark".  You will not be able to buy or sell without it.  If you refuse, you will be beheaded (this is "THE" last chance/hope of making heaven).  If you take the mark, you will have sealed your fate = that hot place opposite of heaven.  FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!

Please my friends...accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior today and avoid this mess.  The days after the rapture will be the worst of times humankind has ever and will ever experience.


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## SkeeterEater (May 27, 2009)

I'll be sure to keep a Red Bull handy!


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## GAX (May 27, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> Every human on earth will be required to take a "mark".  You will not be able to buy or sell without it.  If you refuse, you will be beheaded (this is "THE" last chance/hope of making heaven).  If you take the mark, you will have sealed your fate = that hot place opposite of heaven.  FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!



Isn't suicide a sin? This kinda puts you between a rock and a hard place.... You are not giving up your life, for noone other than yourself, right?


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## donjon25 (May 27, 2009)

gaxtreme said:


> Isn't suicide a sin? This kinda puts you between a rock and a hard place.... You are not giving up your life, for noone other than yourself, right?



This will not be suicide.  It will be take the mark and live, or refuse it and die (physically).  Spiritually it will be the opposite.

According to the Bible, a "huge" number, a number no man can number, will refuse the mark and make it to heaven.


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## ambush80 (May 27, 2009)

I wouldn't make the jump straight to "The Christian God is responsible",  in my mind, that's just short  of cowering at lightning.  I would look for a more reasonable explanation first.


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## grizzlyblake (May 27, 2009)

I also would not immediately think that a Christian god was responsible. There are thousands upon thousands of religions that are much older than Christianity that may be "the right one." Maybe it was some Aztec god, some Greek god, who knows. 

Perhaps this should be a new thread entirely, but for the Christians here: Why did you choose Christianity over any myriad of other religions in the world? Is it because you were raised to "know" you are right and the rest of the world is wrong in their beliefs? Did you research the subject and make the choice based on historical writings and such?

The reason I ask is I have never though of the possibility of a "rapture" happening that may be the real god that is of another religion entirely. Other than this blind faith that Christians are indoctrinated with from birth, how would one know which religion is the right one?


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## mtnwoman (May 27, 2009)

heavymetalhunter said:


> as ive always said....
> 
> as an atheist, if god were 100% scientifically proven to exist, i would begin to believe immediately.
> 
> however, if god were 100% proven to not exist, christians would still believe god did exist.



The difference is, being a believer, if I'm wrong and I die, I won't know the difference. If an atheist is wrong and dies, he will know the difference.


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## SkeeterEater (May 27, 2009)

But if the atheist is right than you have wasted 10 years of your life in church on Sundays.


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## WTM45 (May 27, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> The difference is, being a believer, if I'm wrong and I die, I won't know the difference. If an atheist is wrong and dies, he will know the difference.



That's Pascal's Wager.  Believe just for the sake of the risk.


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## mtnwoman (May 27, 2009)

Six million dollar ham said:


> The rapture will convince me indeed.  The crapper though is that I don't see one in the forecast.  Ever.



What if you're wrong? If you are right, you'll die and that'll be it...but if you're wrong...well, better have your asbestos suit ready, just in case....


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## donjon25 (May 27, 2009)

grizzlyblake said:


> I also would not immediately think that a Christian god was responsible. There are thousands upon thousands of religions that are much older than Christianity that may be "the right one." Maybe it was some Aztec god, some Greek god, who knows.
> 
> Perhaps this should be a new thread entirely, but for the Christians here: Why did you choose Christianity over any myriad of other religions in the world? Is it because you were raised to "know" you are right and the rest of the world is wrong in their beliefs? Did you research the subject and make the choice based on historical writings and such?
> The reason I ask is I have never though of the possibility of a "rapture" happening that may be the real god that is of another religion entirely. Other than this blind faith that Christians are indoctrinated with from birth, how would one know which religion is the right one?



That's a fair question... I did not choose Christianity, God chose me.  It's hard to explain but you ever feel a tugging at your heart, a sense of guilt, condemnation, etc?... When I wasn't living for God and was just "living" it up in the lust of the world, I felt these things.  I knew there was more to life than what I was doing.  What was my purpose?  God brought me to my knees and I cried out to him.  He revealed himself to me in many ways, including an out of body experience.  No I've never done drugs!  He placed people in my path to guide me and help me find answers.  

I've personally never met anyone who went from Christianity to something else...it's always from something else to Christianity...I said "I've "PERSONALLY"...

What other religion offers hope and eternal love and company with their God?  Islam offers 72 virgins in paradise...what does this paradise look like?  Why 72  virgins?  Why not just one?  72 women??? that's paradise???  My "one" keeps me plenty busy and happy , I couldn't deal with 71 more 

BTW... this virgin thing, it was a "forced" misreading of their own book. It was derived from the word "hur" which literally translates to "white raisin".  Sorry...only 72 white raisins for you...


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## mtnwoman (May 27, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> That's Pascal's Wager.  Believe just for the sake of the risk.



Well no, not for me. What's wrong with it though? God knows if we believe in our hearts, not like we can fake it or anything.
I don't think I'd be truly saved if I said I was, just in case.
I just think people should really think it thru and not be so hard against that it's possible.


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## donjon25 (May 27, 2009)

SkeeterEater said:


> But if the atheist is right than you have wasted 10 years of your life in church on Sundays.



Why is that a waste?  

But if the Christian is right then he will spend eternity in heaven and the atheist will...(well, you know).  ETERNITY is a LONGGGGGGGGGG time.


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## SkeeterEater (May 27, 2009)

I had a gut feeling I was a little Islamic!


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## WTM45 (May 27, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> BTW... this virgin thing, it was a "forced" misreading of their own book. It was derived from the word "hur" which literally translates to "white raisin".  Sorry...only 72 white raisins for you...




Documentation, please.
Careful.  Some here are a little studied in various belief systems!


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## donjon25 (May 27, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> That's Pascal's Wager.  Believe just for the sake of the risk.



I don't serve God for the sake of the risk.  I serve God because I love him...and because he's God.


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## mtnwoman (May 27, 2009)

SkeeterEater said:


> But if the atheist is right than you have wasted 10 years of your life in church on Sundays.



Wasted 10 years of my life, being kind and loving like I believe Jesus was?? I don't consider that wasted.

And you don't think 10 yrs of life wasted watching sports  instead of your children is a waste? or 10 yrs in a bar, done that, too.
Wasted 10 yrs of your life on your job just to croke before you get your pension..
I think that could apply to a lot of things.
Church isn't exactly like going to a torture session or anything...LOL


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## grizzlyblake (May 27, 2009)

A question about this "rapture" - does this include all "Christians" as defined by a census? The reason I ask is that looking at this statistically, a "Christian" rapture would take 33% of the world's population, if it included all of these groups that call themselves "Christian":

African Independent Churches (AICs), the Aglipayan Church, Amish, Anglicans, Armenian Apostolic, Assemblies of God; Baptists, Calvary Chapel, Catholics, Christadelphians, Christian Science, the Community of Christ, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ("Mormons"), Coptic Christians, Eastern Orthodox churches, Ethiopian Orthodox, Evangelicals, Iglesia ni Cristo, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Local Church, Lutherans, Methodists, Monophysites, Nestorians, the New Apostolic Church, Pentecostals, Plymouth Brethren, Presbyterians, the Salvation Army, Seventh-Day Adventists, Shakers, Stone-Campbell churches (Disciples of Christ; Churches of Christ; the "Christian Church and Churches of Christ"; the International Church of Christ); Uniate churches, United Church of Christ/Congregationalists, the Unity Church, Universal Church of the Kingdom of God, Vineyard churches and many others. 

There are reported to be over 38,000 Christian denominations.

Now is that going to be the case or do you believe that it will be your specific group? If so, than that is a MUCH smaller group of people. Who is going to be right? 

I know I am mixing threads together here, but several have very similar topics. Sorry.


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## donjon25 (May 27, 2009)

SkeeterEater said:


> I had a gut feeling I was a little Islamic!



skeeter,  you kill me!!


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## mtnwoman (May 27, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> I don't serve God for the sake of the risk.  I serve God because I love him...and because he's God.



I agree and I love all of His creation...even the weak, the hungry, the poor, the abused, the addicts.....I don't consider helping in that arena is a waste of time.
Not that atheists don't do that, I suppose they do...still not a waste of time.

Waste of time is watching wrestling, football, baseball, miss america, american idol, jerry springer....
course that's my opinion and we all have one. That's the beauty of free will.


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## donjon25 (May 27, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Documentation, please.
> Careful.  Some here are a little studied in various belief systems!



You probably won't like my documentation but for what its worth...bibleprobe.com under Islamic danger.  

WTM45 and earl, I know the two of you are very well learned...I can tell by your posts, and that is commendable.  Unfortunately, your wisdom and knowledge will be your own demise.  Pls don't take that as an insult or a low blow or whatever... the Bible talks about this.  You are basically too smart to understand a "simple" gospel message.  

back to original scheduled program...


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## mtnwoman (May 27, 2009)

grizzlyblake said:


> A question about this "rapture" - does this include all "Christians" as defined by a census? The reason I ask is that looking at this statistically, a "Christian" rapture would take 33% of the world's population, if it included all of these groups that call themselves "Christian":
> 
> African Independent Churches (AICs), the Aglipayan Church, Amish, Anglicans, Armenian Apostolic, Assemblies of God; Baptists, Calvary Chapel, Catholics, Christadelphians, Christian Science, the Community of Christ, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ("Mormons"), Coptic Christians, Eastern Orthodox churches, Ethiopian Orthodox, Evangelicals, Iglesia ni Cristo, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Local Church, Lutherans, Methodists, Monophysites, Nestorians, the New Apostolic Church, Pentecostals, Plymouth Brethren, Presbyterians, the Salvation Army, Seventh-Day Adventists, Shakers, Stone-Campbell churches (Disciples of Christ; Churches of Christ; the "Christian Church and Churches of Christ"; the International Church of Christ); Uniate churches, United Church of Christ/Congregationalists, the Unity Church, Universal Church of the Kingdom of God, Vineyard churches and many others.
> 
> ...



If we are Christians, we will know....He will shout....
He says my sheep know my voice and they will follow.


I personally believe in pretrib rapture...some don't. I could be wrong....but when I hear His voice I will go, along with all the others that are HIS sheep....they all will know when it's time.


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## mtnwoman (May 27, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> You probably won't like my documentation but for what its worth...bibleprobe.com under Islamic danger.
> 
> WTM45 and earl, I know the two of you are very well learned...I can tell by your posts, and that is commendable.  Unfortunately, your wisdom and knowledge will be your own demise.  Pls don't take that as an insult or a low blow or whatever... the Bible talks about this.  You are basically too smart to understand a "simple" gospel message.
> 
> back to original scheduled program...



You should come as little children....how could that be learned enough to figure it out? No need to be learned...when the shout comes we will know to go. Simple as that.

All we are ask to believe is that Jesus is the Son of God and that He died for our sins and was resurrected, as we are  'resurrected'  out of death in sin.

If unpardoned sin sends you to hedoubehokeysticks, then pardoned sins sends you to heaven...of course if you believe that.

Jesus is our passover....the Jews were spared the wrath of God in the 10th plague in Egypt by painting the blood of their sacrificial lamb over the door posts....they were covered and spared under the blood...so are we...the blood of the Lamb of God.  I sin daily, I try not to...just like the Jews, even though not perfect they were spared from God's wrath by being under the blood.


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## donjon25 (May 27, 2009)

grizzlyblake said:


> A question about this "rapture" - does this include all "Christians" as defined by a census? The reason I ask is that looking at this statistically, a "Christian" rapture would take 33% of the world's population, if it included all of these groups that call themselves "Christian":
> 
> African Independent Churches (AICs), the Aglipayan Church, Amish, Anglicans, Armenian Apostolic, Assemblies of God; Baptists, Calvary Chapel, Catholics, Christadelphians, Christian Science, the Community of Christ, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ("Mormons"), Coptic Christians, Eastern Orthodox churches, Ethiopian Orthodox, Evangelicals, Iglesia ni Cristo, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Local Church, Lutherans, Methodists, Monophysites, Nestorians, the New Apostolic Church, Pentecostals, Plymouth Brethren, Presbyterians, the Salvation Army, Seventh-Day Adventists, Shakers, Stone-Campbell churches (Disciples of Christ; Churches of Christ; the "Christian Church and Churches of Christ"; the International Church of Christ); Uniate churches, United Church of Christ/Congregationalists, the Unity Church, Universal Church of the Kingdom of God, Vineyard churches and many others.
> 
> ...



Unfortunately not everyone that calls themselves Christians are Christians.  Obama calls himself Christian, however, his actions say otherwise.  

Matthew 7:20-23 - Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 

 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 

 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 

 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

One sure sign of the rapture - Children will be gone, for they are innocent.


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## donjon25 (May 27, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> You should come as little children....how could that be learned enough to figure it out? No need to be learned...when the shout comes we will know to go. Simple as that.
> 
> All we are ask to believe is that Jesus is the Son of God and that He died for our sins and was resurrected, as we are  'resurrected'  out of death in sin.
> 
> ...



Amen...preach it sister!!!  

Pre-trib too.


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## WTM45 (May 27, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> You probably won't like my documentation but for what its worth...bibleprobe.com under Islamic danger.
> 
> WTM45 and earl, I know the two of you are very well learned...I can tell by your posts, and that is commendable.  Unfortunately, your wisdom and knowledge will be your own demise.  Pls don't take that as an insult or a low blow or whatever... the Bible talks about this.  You are basically too smart to understand a "simple" gospel message.
> 
> back to original scheduled program...



No offense taken.
I can proudly state this horse wears no blinders.

The "simple gospel message" you refer to has been a major study of mine.


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## donjon25 (May 27, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> No offense taken.
> I can proudly state this horse wears no blinders.
> 
> The "simple gospel message" you refer to has been a major study of mine.



So...what's the problem?  I would love to sit down with you and earl...not to fight or argue but just to pick your brains.  

I've had many great discussions with atheists about their beliefs or lack of.  I like to hear/see all angles.


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## WTM45 (May 27, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> So...what's the problem?  I would love to sit down with you and earl...not to fight or argue but just to pick your brains.
> 
> I've had many great discussions with atheists about their beliefs or lack of.  I like to hear/see all angles.



No problem here!  I enjoy the discussion as well!


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## donjon25 (May 27, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> No offense taken.
> I can proudly state this horse wears no blinders.
> 
> The "simple gospel message" you refer to has been a major study of mine.



Where are you in your studies??


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## ToLog (May 27, 2009)

in this thread the rapture has been mentioned. in other threads, i believe, that the statement was made that once the True Christians leave the Earth, only those who aren't saved will remain?

not sure if i understood it correctly. but, if so, then there'll be no evangelists, preachers, teachers, etc. to bring in the "unsaved?"  is that right?

then, if some married couples are pregnant at the time, and later the babies are born, then they have no hope, right?  just trying to establish time-lines here. 

i think i'll fall back on the perception/understanding, that with the Coming of the Messiah/The Return of the Christos, the "society of humans" will be made right, with balance on the Earth for "at least" a thousand years.

of course, i could be wrong in my understanding and perceptions.


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## WTM45 (May 27, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> Where are you in your studies??



Don't know.  Cain't say.  Who really knows?
I can say I have found contentment and relief from unnecessarily imposed stress and worry!


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## Spacelord (May 27, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> Will the rapture convince you that there really is a God?  I know you don't believe in this event, but hypothetically speaking if you will, when ALL children and millions of Christians "suddenly disappear", will you believe then?
> 
> If you've never heard of the rapture, it is when God takes his people out of earth (dead in Christ, followed by those alive) and makes way for the great tribulation to begin.



What if this question was turned around ?  When it does'nt happen will you be convinced there really is'nt a god ? 

I'm interested in you answer....


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## donjon25 (May 27, 2009)

ToLog said:


> in this thread the rapture has been mentioned. in other threads, i believe, that the statement was made that once the True Christians leave the Earth, only those who aren't saved will remain?  TRUE.
> 
> not sure if i understood it correctly. but, if so, then there'll be no evangelists, preachers, teachers, etc. to bring in the "unsaved?"  is that right?  False.  There will be those that "knew" the truth but still had sin in their lives.  They will know exactly what happened and will evangelize throughout the world.  They will know not to take the mark of the beast - being their last chance to be saved.  However they will go through the tribulation.   Also, and this is cool, Elijah and either Moses or Enoch (that's right the real life prophets of old) will come to earth as real as they were in their day, and preach the gospel of Jesus Christ and proclaim Jesus as the Messiah.  144,000 Jews will evangelize in Israel.   These that are saved during this time are known as the tribulation saints - a number no man can number.
> 
> ...



Hope this helps.


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## donjon25 (May 27, 2009)

Spacelord said:


> What if this question was turned around ?  When it does'nt happen will you be convinced there really is'nt a god ?
> 
> I'm interested in you answer....



Yes.  That would mean that the Bible was a lie.  However, I'm betting my life that it WILL happen.


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## Spacelord (May 27, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> Yes.  That would mean that the Bible was a lie.  However, I'm betting my life that it WILL happen.



Good answer...  enjoy you faith.


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## GAX (May 27, 2009)

Spacelord said:


> What if this question was turned around ?  When it does'nt happen will you be convinced there really is'nt a god ?
> 
> I'm interested in you answer....





donjon25 said:


> Yes.  That would mean that the Bible was a lie.  However, I'm betting my life that it WILL happen.



It would not necessarily mean, the bible was/is a lie, It could simply mean the Churches interpretation of the bible was wrong..


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## donjon25 (May 27, 2009)

gaxtreme said:


> It would not necessarily mean, the bible was/is a lie, It could simply mean the Churches interpretation of the bible was wrong..



I suppose.  However, I do read for myself and it's pretty clear that the rapture "will" happen.  I know the word "rapture" is not in the Bible, but you get the idea.


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## WTM45 (May 27, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> Yes.  That would mean that the Bible was a lie.  However, I'm betting my life that it WILL happen.



You do know the historical struggle within Christianity regarding the acceptance of the Book of Revelation, don't you?  Martin Luther, Calvin, even Thomas Jefferson.

Lots of differences in opinion as well as interpretation within the belief system.

Believe as you wish.  But some see it as a really non-productive study and an unnecessary life stressor.


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## GAX (May 27, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> I suppose.  However, I do read for myself and it's pretty clear that the rapture "will" happen.  I know the word "rapture" is not in the Bible, but you get the idea.



Gotcha. Not saying it won't....

I'm not picking here, just curious... What is your "base", for your own interpretation? If you were raised to believe something different, do you think you would get a different interpretation from Rev?

Like I said, just curious...


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## Spacelord (May 27, 2009)

gaxtreme said:


> It would not necessarily mean, the bible was/is a lie, It could simply mean the Churches interpretation of the bible was wrong..



There's the answer I was expecting.


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## ToLog (May 27, 2009)

Spacelord said:


> There's the answer I was expecting.



alright, for the fun of it, let's go further, ok? 

say, everything in Rev is correct, or nearly so, given our ability to translate, understand, and project.

what if, the Writer was eating contaminated grain? i don't know, do you?  what are we speaking of here?  why, fungus on spoilt grain, used to feed the prisoners, of course. anyways, something was preserved, and here we are discussing the agreements/disagreements. 

how can One possibly know what was in the mind of the Writer, and what he was sayin' or attempting to say?

and if one wants to get really deep, think about a parasite, eating a victim, and then swarming out, and moving to the next victim, like a swarm of locusts, leaving an eat-out wheat or grain-field.

don't worry about the locusts, but, can the grain field repair itself and continue to function, after the assault of locusts??


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## gtparts (May 27, 2009)

ToLog said:


> alright, for the fun of it, let's go further, ok?
> 
> say, everything in Rev is correct, or nearly so, given our ability to translate, understand, and project.
> 
> ...



Might help if anyone besides you had some idea of where you are going with this.


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## pnome (May 28, 2009)

Spacelord said:


> What if this question was turned around ?  When it does'nt happen will you be convinced there really is'nt a god ?



When it "doesn't" happen?  That isn't exactly measurable.   It's not a finite thing right?  It could very well not happen for the rest of time.


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## donjon25 (May 28, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> You do know the historical struggle within Christianity regarding the acceptance of the Book of Revelation, don't you?  Martin Luther, Calvin, even Thomas Jefferson.
> 
> Lots of differences in opinion as well as interpretation within the belief system.
> 
> Believe as you wish.  But some see it as a really non-productive study and an unnecessary life stressor.



I don't know why they struggled...maybe they weren't being led by the Holy Spirit.  I've read it, along with books of Ezekiel and Daniel, and they make perfect sense to me.  

Is there a foretold prophecy that has not come to pass?  NO.  The Bible has a perfect track record.  Why would anyone think that these "last day" events won't happen?  I'm guessing FEAR.

I see it as a really productive study and a very necessary life saver.


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## pnome (May 28, 2009)

I think a better question is:

What set of conditions, what evidence, will convince you that God does not exist and that Jesus was a mortal man?  


Is the believers theory falsifiable?


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## christianhunter (May 28, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Let's say something like a mass dissappearance occurs.
> But, many big named ministers, deacons, missionaries and various positions of the Vatican are still here.
> What then?
> How can it be proven who was/is a Christian?



You just don't realize how close you really are.Unfortunately that may be the case,but if they are smart they will have an edge.They would know what happened.Everyone is not going to believe the lies of the anti-christ.


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## donjon25 (May 28, 2009)

gaxtreme said:


> Gotcha. Not saying it won't....
> 
> I'm not picking here, just curious... What is your "base", for your own interpretation? If you were raised to believe something different, do you think you would get a different interpretation from Rev?
> 
> Like I said, just curious...



It's not my "OWN" interpretation.  I just read it and understood it - that's all.  I guess my base would be the Holy Spirit.

As far as being raised different... I don't know.  I can only speak to "my" situation.  I thank GOD almighty I was raised the way I was.

Here's the deal.  I don't read the Bible "looking" for contradictions or fallacies or a way to disprove it...that's just a bad way to read anything and it is fruitless.  I read it for guidance, strength, reproof and to just feed my spirit and soul with God's word.


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## donjon25 (May 28, 2009)

ToLog said:


> alright, for the fun of it, let's go further, ok?
> 
> say, everything in Rev is correct, or nearly so, given our ability to translate, understand, and project.
> 
> ...



...All scripture is given by inspiration of God...


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## WTM45 (May 28, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> ...All scripture is given by inspiration of God...



KJV only, I presume............

Taking a hiatus for a while.  Everyone have fun!


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