# "If Saved…Always Saved." instead of "Once Saved, Always Saved"



## Double Barrel BB (Aug 31, 2006)

I found this little sermon online today.

DB BB

If it's true, it's probably not new. "It is the old that is true, for truth is as old as God himself"  --Charles Spurgeon

ONCE SAVED…ALWAYS SAVED?

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, 
neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.  (John 10:27-28)

There are two distinct groups in the evangelical Church which are not happy with the above statement. The first group are obviously the Arminians who believe that a man can be saved and lost. We all believe that men can be lost and saved (Luke 19:10) but the Arminians allow for the possibility of a man being truly saved at some point in time and yet spending eternity in pinkiepinkiepinkiepinkie because of real apostasy from God. Suffice to say that I reject such a thought as overthrowing the decree of God, the efficacy of the blood of Christ which was shed specifically to keep the elect of God out of pinkiepinkiepinkiepinkie and all that leads to it, and the power of the Holy Spirit to preserve Christians from apostasy. Such a belief does not negate in any way the responsibility of every Christian to heed the warning verses and Calvinists and others who believe in the eternal security of the saints are no less concerned about Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10 etc., than our Arminian brethren.

Another group, however, is not happy with the "Once saved…always saved" concept are many who do subscribe to the doctrine of the eternal security of the people of God. This may surprise some folk, but there is good reason for the concern. The eternal security doctrine has been abused by some who believe that since they have made a profession of faith, then they will be in Heaven no matter what they do. Did they not receive Christ as their Savior in a meeting some years ago?  Did they not go to the front or sign a card or raise a hand? Did not the "sinner's prayer" seal the issue for all eternity?  Are not their sins, then, forever dealt with? Well, if so…what's the problem?

The problem is this.  While we are saved and kept by Christ alone (1 Peter 1:5) yet part of the evidence that we are indeed saved is by our good works i.e. holy living. We were not saved in our sins or saved for our sins…but saved from our sins (Matthew 1:21).  By grace through faith unto good works (Ephesians 2:8-10) is the order of scriptures. Chosen in Christ to be holy (Ephesians 1:4)…conformed unto the image of His Son (Romans 8:29) is how it is stated elsewhere. If there is no holiness, then no matter what we did some years ago or thought we did will get us into Heaven. We are not saved by holiness (legalism) but salvation is evidenced by it, just as the tree is evidenced by its fruit. A real Christian (Christ-one) is Christ-like.

Therefore instead of "Once saved…always saved" it might be better if we closed up a rather smug loophole which self deceived professors have exploited and believe instead: "If saved…always saved." This maintains the truth of the eternal security of the people of God while leaving room for that vital examination which is urged upon us by the Apostle Paul himself (2 Corinthians 13:5).  Obviously no one is urging an excessive introspection which (having got us to take our eyes of Christ) would plunge us all into despair.  But it is profitable to take time to weigh ourselves in the balances of Scriptures and see if we are really manifesting those evidences of the new birth (1 John).  If we do and we are…we will rejoice all the more in what Christ has accomplished for us. Far better this, than to wake up in pinkiepinkiepinkiepinkie and discover that our hope was that of the hypocrite which will perish (Job 8:13)

http://www.oldtruth.com/calvinism/oncesaved.html


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## StriperAddict (Aug 31, 2006)

A wise way of understanding this truth...

thanks for posting.


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## PWalls (Aug 31, 2006)

Spurgeon truly had a way with words.


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## Vernon Holt (Aug 31, 2006)

BB:  While not a Calvinist, I do agree fully with the concept presented here.


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## blindhog (Aug 31, 2006)

Agreed


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## Double Barrel BB (Jan 7, 2009)

bump for another oldie...

DB BB


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## PWalls (Jan 7, 2009)

And, still a "goodie".


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## Randy (Jan 7, 2009)

Well you know how I feel?

The "If saved" comment is always the fall back for those who believe in "Once Saved, always saved."  They way they see it is if you fall from grace, you must have never been saved to start with.


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## rjcruiser (Jan 7, 2009)

Randy said:


> Well you know how I feel?
> 
> The "If saved" comment is always the fall back for those who believe in "Once Saved, always saved."  They way they see it is if you fall from grace, you must have never been saved to start with.



Alex...we have a winner

I like it DB....makes it easier to explain the OSAS thinking.


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## pigpen1 (Jan 7, 2009)

Sealed unto the DAY of redemption...Eph 4:30

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
KJV


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## creation's_cause (Jan 7, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Alex...we have a winner
> 
> X2


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## Ronnie T (Jan 7, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> I found this little sermon online today.
> 
> 
> ONCE SAVED…ALWAYS SAVED?
> ...





Notice the "condition" placed in these two verses.
1.  My sheep hear my voice.
2.  I know them.
3.  They follow me.
That's eternal life.


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## Big10point (Jan 8, 2009)

*how do you refute these verses?*

even tho i am a Baptist i do not believe osas is Biblical.  there are a couple of verses that make it sound like osas is Biblical... but there are many more that sound the opposite.  i know salvation is a free gift but how do yall explain these verses and teachings in the Bible? if you're a osas believer?

http://www.geocities.com/1christlover/OSAS-.html


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## blindhog (Jan 10, 2009)

Big10point said:


> even tho i am a Baptist i do not believe osas is Biblical.  there are a couple of verses that make it sound like osas is Biblical... but there are many more that sound the opposite.  i know salvation is a free gift but how do yall explain these verses and teachings in the Bible? if you're a osas believer?
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/1christlover/OSAS-.html



What you should do, is ignore writings by men on both sides of the issue.

Get your bible and go to reading and study yourself with fervant prayer.  It may take some time for God to settle you on this, it took almost 2 years for me.
He is faithful.


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## Big10point (Jan 10, 2009)

i think the word "if" is key here... and i think its the key word to notice in the NT when you're discussing the once saved always saved topic... if a person is "always saved", then why does Jesus use all of these "if's"....?

John 8:51
I tell you the truth, *if* anyone keeps my word, he will never see death...

John 14:15
*If* ye love me, keep my commandments

John 14:23
Jesus answered and said unto him, *If *a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him

John 15:10
*If* ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; 

Acts 15:29
That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which *if *ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well.

1 Corinthians 15:2
By which also ye are saved, *if* ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain...

1 John 2:3
And hereby we do know that we know him, *if* we keep his commandments...


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## blindhog (Jan 10, 2009)

"If"  (you show fruit, which any saint will to some degree).

And hereby we do know that we know him,  IF we keep his commandments ( by this we show fruit of salvation, not a work that saves)

You must remember to interpret scriptures with plainer more easily understood scripture.  Jesus said that saints would attain different levels of "fruit bearing".  Some will keep less of his commandments than others.


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## Big10point (Jan 11, 2009)

blindhog said:


> "If"  (you show fruit, which any saint will to some degree).
> 
> And hereby we do know that we know him,  IF we keep his commandments ( by this we show fruit of salvation, not a work that saves)
> 
> You must remember to interpret scriptures with plainer more easily understood scripture.  Jesus said that saints would attain different levels of "fruit bearing".  Some will keep less of his commandments than others.



ok, what about this verse?  if a person is always saved, what about this?

Hebrews 10:26
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins...


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## farmasis (Jan 11, 2009)

Big10point said:


> ok, what about this verse? if a person is always saved, what about this?
> 
> Hebrews 10:26
> For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins...


 
What about it?

Even if we sin no more sacrifice is required for our sins.

Once saved, always saved.

We will expect punishment for willfull disobedient even more so than those in Moses's time who did not have grace, but it will not be seperation from God.


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## thedeacon (Jan 11, 2009)

Man I haven't seem this much if'fn since I had my last discussion with my son when he was a teenager 20 years ago. hehehehe


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## Big10point (Jan 11, 2009)

farmasis said:


> What about it?
> 
> Even if we sin no more sacrifice is required for our sins.
> 
> ...



if there is no more sacrifice, there is no more forgiveness... no more forgiveness, then no more salvation...

if an adulterer gets saved, turns his life over to Jesus and goes to church every week but keeps on being an adulterer... then there is no more forgiveness... no more forgiveness... helllbound...


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## Big10point (Jan 11, 2009)

farmasis said:


> What about it?
> 
> Even if we sin no more sacrifice is required for our sins.
> 
> ...



i work with a guy that is openly gay...  goes to church, says he's a Christian and even sings in his choir...  but still practices being homo...  hellbound... either he was never saved to begin with (most likely) or saved and lost it...  God says over and over fornicators, etc will not enter the kingdom of Heaven...


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## 1BigBuckDown (Jan 11, 2009)

farmasis said:


> What about it?
> 
> Even if we sin no more sacrifice is required for our sins.
> 
> ...



I would like to see where in the Bible thats its ok to keep sinning and just get a slap on the wrist from God... Do you have any verses on that?


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## farmasis (Jan 11, 2009)

Big10point said:


> if there is no more sacrifice, there is no more forgiveness... no more forgiveness, then no more salvation...
> 
> if an adulterer gets saved, turns his life over to Jesus and goes to church every week but keeps on being an adulterer... then there is no more forgiveness... no more forgiveness... helllbound...


 
If someone continues to live in sin, he wasn't saved.

Being saved, is a life changing event, not an emotion and a promise to be good. You are to be a new creature. If you are 'saved', and become the old creature again, it wasn't salvation.
It is impossible to taste salvation and return to the old.


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## farmasis (Jan 11, 2009)

1BigBuckDown said:


> I would like to see where in the Bible thats its ok to keep sinning and just get a slap on the wrist from God... Do you have any verses on that?


 
Have you stopped sinning?

I haven't.

Never said it was OK, but it is human nature.

 7Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. 9Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! 10Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. 11No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. (Hebrews 12)


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## farmasis (Jan 11, 2009)

Big10point said:


> i work with a guy that is openly gay... goes to church, says he's a Christian and even sings in his choir... but still practices being homo... hellbound... either he was never saved to begin with (most likely) or saved and lost it... God says over and over fornicators, etc will not enter the kingdom of Heaven...


 
There are, unfortunatly, many lost people in church. Even in the choir, even deacons, even preachers.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 11, 2009)

For Christians who lived in the 1st century, there was no discussion of whether or not one would always be saved if that person had ever been saved.
In the 1st century, there was no such thing as the "plan of salvation".
For them, based of what they had been taught by Jesus and then the apostles, salvation was a whole life committment to God thru Jesus Christ.
For them, salvation didn't hinge upon their confession of Jesus as the Christ.
It didn't hinge upon their repentance.
It didn't hinge upon their baptism.
For them, salvation was about giving their lives to God.  
Turning their lives over to God.
The 1st century Christian would say:  There is no "once saved" there is only giving your life in committment to God.

Make sense?


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## thedeacon (Jan 12, 2009)

*yep*



Ronnie T said:


> For Christians who lived in the 1st century, there was no discussion of whether or not one would always be saved if that person had ever been saved.
> In the 1st century, there was no such thing as the "plan of salvation".
> For them, based of what they had been taught by Jesus and then the apostles, salvation was a whole life committment to God thru Jesus Christ.
> For them, salvation didn't hinge upon their confession of Jesus as the Christ.
> ...



wish i'd said that


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## 1BigBuckDown (Jan 12, 2009)

farmasis said:


> There are, unfortunatly, many lost people in church. Even in the choir, even deacons, even preachers.



i know that... and no, i have not stopped sinning but i have stopped "willfully" sinning. i will never say that i dont sin, b/c God said if we say that, we are liars.. which is sinning!!!!  i am still looking for that verse from you tho... which states that God will give a slap on the wrist for sinning???  

dont misunderstand me like some others here do.... i am not saying that i have the answers... i am actually confused on this topic and have prayed about it alot... I AM NOT CLAIMING THAT I HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS... 

just an fyi


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## 1BigBuckDown (Jan 12, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> For Christians who lived in the 1st century, there was no discussion of whether or not one would always be saved if that person had ever been saved.
> In the 1st century, there was no such thing as the "plan of salvation".
> 
> _I believe that God's plan of salvation started prior to the formation of the earth...  its the Word of God which was started in the "beginning"....  remember that God knew the end from the beginning..._
> ...



partially... i dont totally agree due to the verses above.


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## Big10point (Jan 12, 2009)

farmasis said:


> If someone continues to live in sin, he wasn't saved.
> 
> Being saved, is a life changing event, not an emotion and a promise to be good. You are to be a new creature. If you are 'saved', and become the old creature again, it wasn't salvation.
> It is impossible to taste salvation and return to the old.



if its impossible to be saved and then lost again then please help me with this verse...

Hebrews 6:4-9

 4 What if some people fall away from the faith? It won't be possible to bring them back. It is true that they have seen the light. They have tasted the heavenly gift. They have shared in the Holy Spirit. 5 They have tasted the good things of God's word. They have tasted the powers of the age to come. 6 But they have fallen away from the faith. So it won't be possible to bring them back. They won't be able to turn away from their sins. They are losing everything. That's because they are nailing the Son of God to the cross all over again. They are bringing shame on him in front of everyone. 

 7 Some land drinks the rain that falls on it. It produces a crop that is useful to those who farm the land. That land receives God's blessing. 8 But other land produces only thorns and weeds. That land isn't worth anything. It is in danger of coming under God's curse. In the end, it will be burned.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 12, 2009)

All these verses we keep posting certainly do connect faith to salvation and confession to salvation and repentance to salvation and baptism to salvation.
Faith, confession, repentance, baptism belong in the life of a person who has responded to the free gift of salvation in Jesus Christ.
But those 4 things need to be placed right back into God's word and allow God's word to change our lives.  That's what salvation is.  
Salvation is found in giving my life to God.

If you haven't given your life to God, you can confess all you want to........... and still not have salvation.
If you haven't given your life to God, your faith soon becomes meaningless.
If you haven't given your life to God, repentance soon disappears.

The Gospels give us a new way to live for God.
Acts give us a new way to live for God.
Paul's letters give us a new way to live for God.

Being a Christian isn't like putting a childs toy together(following the proper steps).
Being a Christian is about absorbing Jesus Christ within you.
That's salvation.


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## Double Barrel BB (Jan 12, 2009)

Big10point said:


> if its impossible to be saved and then lost again then please help me with this verse...
> 
> Hebrews 6:4-9
> 
> ...


 

Just curious...

Which sin(s), in your opinion, is it that terminates our Salvation?

DB BB


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## Big10point (Jan 12, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Just curious...
> 
> Which sin(s), in your opinion, is it that terminates our Salvation?
> 
> DB BB



i am not being 100% dogmatic about this... again i dont have the answer nor claim to... i am just looking at these verses wondering what do we do with them....??  if you're a OSAS person, you have to do something with these verses...

to answer your question, i dont see in the Bible where God differentiates between sin...  sin is sin. and no sin can be in the presence of God... so i am not gonna say that a drunkard can get a "free" pass and the liar has to burn...


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## Double Barrel BB (Jan 12, 2009)

Big10point said:


> i am not being 100% dogmatic about this... again i dont have the answer nor claim to... i am just looking at these verses wondering what do we do with them....?? if you're a OSAS person, you have to do something with these verses...
> 
> to answer your question, i dont see in the Bible where God differentiates between sin... sin is sin. and no sin can be in the presence of God... so i am not gonna say that a drunkard can get a "free" pass and the liar has to burn...


 
*Question*
*Does Hebrews 6:4-6 teach that a true believer can lose his salvation?

Answer*
No. In that passage, the writer of Hebrews is speaking to the unsaved who have heard the truth and acknowledged it, but who have hesitated to embrace Christ. The Holy Spirit warns them, “You had better come to Christ now, for if you fall away it will be impossible for you to come again to the point of repentance.” They were at the best point for repentance–full knowledge. To fall back from that would be fatal.

Because they believe the warning is addressed to Christians, many interpreters hold that the passage teaches that salvation can be lost. If this interpretation were true, however, the passage would also teach that, once lost, salvation could never be regained. There would be no going back and forth, in and out of grace. But Christians are not being addressed, and it is the opportunity for receiving salvation, not salvation itself, that can be lost.

The believer need never fear he will lose his salvation. He cannot. The Bible is absolutely clear about that. Jesus said, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand” (John 10:27-29; see also Rom. 8:35-39; Phil. 1:6; and 1 Pet. 1:4-5).

If you are in Christ, rejoice. Your salvation is secure forever.

(Adapted from Hebrews, MacArthur New Testament Commentary, p. 146.)


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## Big10point (Jan 12, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> *Question*
> *Does Hebrews 6:4-6 teach that a true believer can lose his salvation?
> 
> Answer*
> ...



It is true that they have seen the light. They have tasted the heavenly gift (CAN A NON-BELIEVER TASTE THE GIFT OF SALVATION?). They have shared in the Holy Spirit (DO NON-BELIEVERS SHARE IN THE HS?). 5 They have tasted the good things of God's word. They have tasted the powers of the age to come. 6 But they have fallen away from the faith. (HOW CAN A NON-BELIEVER "FALL AWAY" FROM SOMTHING THAT HE NEVER HAD???)...  how can i "fall away" from being CEO of WalMart if i never held the title? i just dont get this...  i want to believe in OSAS but these verses are just keeping me from it... i will add that if a person is OSAS then why wouldnt they just live like the devil...?  there has to be an incentive... when you're hired as an employee, your boss does not promise you'll be employed there forever... you have to do you part...

1 more thing... why would God say?

Philippians 2:12
...continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling

if a person is OSAS then wouldnt they be    ?

a person that is    is not working out there salvation with "fear and trembling"...


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## fivesolas (Jan 12, 2009)

What do you guys think of this:

Chapter 17: Of The Perseverance of the Saints
1._____ Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, whence he still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality; and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon; notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded and obscured from them, yet he is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.
( John 10:28, 29; Philippians 1:6; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 John 2:19; Psalms 89:31, 32; 1 Corinthians 11:32; Malachi 3:6 ) 


2._____ This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof. 
( Romans 8:30 Romans 9:11, 16; Romans 5:9, 10; John 14:19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 1 John 3:9; Jeremiah 32:40 ) 

3._____ And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end. 
( Matthew 26:70, 72, 74; Isaiah 64:5, 9; Ephesians 4:30; Psalms 51:10, 12; Psalms 32:3, 4; 2 Samuel 12:14; Luke 22:32, 61, 62 )


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## Double Barrel BB (Jan 12, 2009)

Big10point said:


> i will add that if a person is OSAS then why wouldnt they just live like the devil...? there has to be an incentive... when you're hired as an employee, your boss does not promise you'll be employed there forever... you have to do you part...


 


> Beginners in the way of grace, it is a great and solemn truth that every child of God will hold on until the end, but it is an equally solemn truth that many who profess to be the Lord’s are self-deceivers, and will turn out apostates after all. - CH Spurgeon


 
I can profess that I work for Wal-mart, but until I actually show up and work, I didn't.... There is a difference in those that live a Christian life and those that say they live a Christian life... I met many of the latter of those types of people when I was in college... I have met many more since I joined the work force after college... The only way to know if someone is Saved is, by their Fruits... If they do not produce good fruits, then chances are they are not saved...

As far as OSAS and living like the devil... I will suggest if you live like the devil but also claim the OSAS... You were never saved in the first place... I think the people that believe you can loose your Salvation believe all of the OSAS people believe they can live like the devil and it will not matter... Some probably do, but I would say that portion of people are as lost as they ever were...

Bottom line.... If Saved, Always Saved.

DB BB


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## Big10point (Jan 12, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> I can profess that I work for Wal-mart, but until I actually show up and work, I didn't.... There is a difference in those that live a Christian life and those that say they live a Christian life... I met many of the latter of those types of people when I was in college... I have met many more since I joined the work force after college... The only way to know if someone is Saved is, by their Fruits... If they do not produce good fruits, then chances are they are not saved...
> 
> As far as OSAS and living like the devil... I will suggest if you live like the devil but also claim the OSAS... You were never saved in the first place... I think the people that believe you can loose your Salvation believe all of the OSAS people believe they can live like the devil and it will not matter... Some probably do, but I would say that portion of people are as lost as they ever were...
> 
> ...



please prove me wrong...  db bb.

what is the deinition of "covenant"?

cov·e·nant (kv-nnt)
n.
1. A _binding agreement_; a compact. See Synonyms at bargain.
2. Law 
a. A formal sealed _agreement or contract_.



what is the definition of "agreement" or "contract"?

con·tract (kntrkt)
1. 
a. An _agreement_ between _two or more parties,_ especially one that is written and enforceable by law. See Synonyms at bargain.
b. The writing or document containing such an agreement.
2. The branch of law dealing with formal agreements between parties.
3. Marriage as a formal agreement; betrothal

the saved are under "covenant" with Jesus... the NT is a "new covenant"...  from the looks of these definitions... its an agreement between 2 people or in the case of Christianity, between Jesus and the saved person... we all know that binding agreements are broken all the time.

men are sinful, fallible and imperfect. i understand that Jesus wouldnt go and break this "contract" but men??? how can you say that men will never break their contract with Jesus.?

also, i cant think of anywhere in the OT where the great men of God (Abraham, Jacob, etc) ever came across as   

when you read the Psalms, David had fear and trembling all the time... and he was a man after God's own heart...


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## fivesolas (Jan 12, 2009)

Big10point said:


> please prove me wrong...  db bb.
> 
> what is the deinition of "covenant"?
> 
> ...



I thinks its awesome that you are looking at this covenantly. Hebrews 9:15 comes to mind:

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Jesus is the mediator of the new testament (covenant) that is spoken of in Jeremiah 31. 

v. 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 

v. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. 

Question: Where is the obligations and service that is that required of the people God is promising to enter into the new covenant with? 

I believe the answer is...there is none. There is none because the covenant of redemption (as it is called) is between two parties, but the two parties are God the Father and God the Son, of course, with the object being a people. 

John 10:29 says, "My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." 

God the Father gave to the Son a people, which Jesus calls His sheep. His sheep hear His voice. Others don't hear Jesus because they are not His sheep. v.26

This is also contained in the Pslams, ch. 2 verse 7-8

I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 

When did the Son ask for a people? 

John 17:9
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 

What I see in these texts is the Father giving to the Son a people, and the Son accomplishing redemption for them. Therefore the covenant isn't between people and Christ, but between the Father and the Son, completely unbreakable, perfect, unalterable and unable to fail.

"These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:1-3

verse 6 "I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word." 

God the Father gave (elected) a people for the Son, the Son accomplished their redemption, and the Holy Spirit convicts, fills, seals, et. 

When did this covenant take place do you suppose? I believe it took place before the world began. I believe it was God's plan from all eternity. 

This is why I believe those who are truly saved will remain saved. These are they that were chosen by God the Father and given to the Son of God, who bought them with His own blood, sealed us with His the Spirit, until the redemption of the purchased possession. 

-five


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## Double Barrel BB (Jan 12, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> i thinks its awesome that you are looking at this covenantly. Hebrews 9:15 comes to mind:
> 
> And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
> 
> ...


 

well said!!!!


*amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## Big10point (Jan 12, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> I thinks its awesome that you are looking at this covenantly. Hebrews 9:15 comes to mind:
> 
> And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
> 
> ...



i'll have to study this. i want to believe osas...  i have faith in Christ just not myself to not sin and "be perfect as He is perfect"...

to 5solas and db bb... thx for putting up with my lack of understanding on this subject.... and being patient.


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## fivesolas (Jan 12, 2009)

Big10point said:


> i'll have to study this. i want to believe osas...  i have faith in Christ just not myself to not sin and "be perfect as He is perfect"...
> 
> to 5solas and db bb... thx for putting up with my lack of understanding on this subject.... and being patient.



As iron sharpens iron as they say...it may be us who are dull and need your insight.


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## Double Barrel BB (Jan 12, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> As iron sharpens iron as they say...it may be us who are dull and need your insight.


 

Very True!!!

DB BB


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## christianhunter (Jan 12, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Notice the "condition" placed in these two verses.
> 1.  My sheep hear my voice.
> 2.  I know them.
> 3.  They follow me.
> That's eternal life.



You haven't sinned or fell from Grace since salvation?
I hope the answer is yes,if not you have just sinned here.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 12, 2009)

Notice the "condition" placed in these two verses.
1. My sheep hear my voice.
2. I know them.
3. They follow me.
That's eternal life. 





christianhunter said:


> You haven't sinned or fell from Grace since salvation?
> I hope the answer is yes,if not you have just sinned here.




I'm a little shocked at your comment.  With all the other banter in this thread, you comment about this?

My comment simply meant this:  God's sheep aren't made up of people who simply confessed faith in Jesus.  Jesus' sheep are those who follow Him.  Jesus' sheep are those who follow His lead.  They live for Him.  They've given their lives to Jesus.  And when they faulter, Jesus is there for them.  Even when they sin.

But, I do NOT believe in once saved always saved.  It is not taught in the New Testament.
The apostles didn't go round teaching once saved always saved............ They taught conversion.

So yall knock it off now and quit it.
I'm tired of you going on and on and on and on and on.

Let's talk about living for Jesus.


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## Big10point (Jan 12, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> bump for another oldie...
> 
> DB BB



whats a "bump"


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## pigpen1 (Jan 12, 2009)

Big10point said:


> whats a "bump"



 that is a old thread that has been bumped back up to the top again...or a small red, raised spot on your skin...


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## Big10point (Jan 12, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> that is a old thread that has been bumped back up to the top again...or a small red, raised spot on your skin...



you're killing me tonoite pp1 ...
stop it ok....?    
my side is startin to hurt.


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## pigpen1 (Jan 12, 2009)

Big10point said:


> you're killing me tonoite pp1 ...
> stop it ok....?
> my side is startin to hurt.



 OK, I'll try to be serious the rest of the night...


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## christianhunter (Jan 12, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Notice the "condition" placed in these two verses.
> 1. My sheep hear my voice.
> 2. I know them.
> 3. They follow me.
> ...



Brother,
I meant you no harm,and was certainly not being critical of you.I'm not going to argue about the different beliefs we have about eternal security.I'm sorry if I offended you .Please forgive me,for not wording it a little differently.
My wife was calling me to dinner,and I cut it short.
Once again forgive me.

Michael


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## christianhunter (Jan 12, 2009)

Big10point said:


> ok, what about this verse?  if a person is always saved, what about this?
> 
> Hebrews 10:26
> For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins...



Brothers and Sisters,I ask this question.How can we as believers,who know sin,by the conviction of THE HOLY SPIRIT commit a sin without knowing it before hand?
We can't,we don't accidently sin when we fall.When we get angry on this very forum,we know as we are typing that we are sinning all of the way through.The believers who are using this forum must first,witness to those who do not believe,then second lift up and pray for our brothers and sisters when we see them fall.We should do this through a PM.I'm a sinner saved by Grace,I fall and have to ask for forgiveness on a daily basis.I know I'm about to sin everytime though,as THE HOLY SPIRIT convicts me.I fear GOD,I don't want to sin,I certainly don't want to commit "The sin unto death"or "Be turned over to satan for the destruction of the flesh,so that my soul will be saved."I fear GOD our Father as a small child fears their parents,when they know they have done something wrong.Why would I fear GOD so when I sin,and not be one of HIS sheep?
To fear HIM,and be convicted to the point that it causes worry and fear,would seem like enough evidence to me.To have NO fear and conviction,that would make me question my or anyone elses salvation.

Michael


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## Dixie Dawg (Jan 13, 2009)

1BigBuckDown said:


> i know that... and no, i have not stopped sinning but i have stopped "willfully" sinning. i will never say that i dont sin, b/c God said if we say that, we are liars.. which is sinning!!!!  i am still looking for that verse from you tho... which states that God will give a slap on the wrist for sinning???
> 
> dont misunderstand me like some others here do.... i am not saying that i have the answers... i am actually confused on this topic and have prayed about it alot... I AM NOT CLAIMING THAT I HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS...
> 
> just an fyi



I'm just curious as to how you mean that you have stopped 'willfully' sinning?  I'm not picking at you or being argumentative, I'm sincerely curious.

If you know what sin is, and you do it, then it must be willful.  If you know it is a sin to tell a lie, and you tell it anyway, then you do so willfully.  If the bible is the guidebook of life, and you know the bible (what you believe are the commandments), and you go against them, then you do it willfully.  Are you saying that there are sins you might be committing and not know it? 

I'm curious as to your opinion of my story.
Up until seven years ago, you could not have told me that I was not saved.  I was a believer, a follower and one of the 'flock'.  Obviously that has changed.  So of course I would have to agree that it CAN happen.   Some on here have told me that since I was once 'saved', I am always 'saved'.  Others have said I was never saved in the first place, so I am doomed to hades.  I find the differences in their opinions to be interesting.  I suppose in the big picture it doesn't make much difference to me, but it should make a huge difference to Christians... for if someone like me can never be assured of their salvation, who can?   

http://forum.gon.com/showpost.php?p=3040382&postcount=2


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## fivesolas (Jan 13, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I'm just curious as to how you mean that you have stopped 'willfully' sinning?  I'm not picking at you or being argumentative, I'm sincerely curious.
> 
> If you know what sin is, and you do it, then it must be willful.  If you know it is a sin to tell a lie, and you tell it anyway, then you do so willfully.  If the bible is the guidebook of life, and you know the bible (what you believe are the commandments), and you go against them, then you do it willfully.  Are you saying that there are sins you might be committing and not know it?
> 
> ...



Dixie, 

Do you want to just hear opinions, or would you like to see what the Bible says in this very subject? I am asking because you just may be curious what others think and not necessarily what the Bible teaches on the subject. 

-five


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## 1BigBuckDown (Jan 13, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I'm just curious as to how you mean that you have stopped 'willfully' sinning?  I'm not picking at you or being argumentative, I'm sincerely curious.
> 
> If you know what sin is, and you do it, then it must be willful.  If you know it is a sin to tell a lie, and you tell it anyway, then you do so willfully.  If the bible is the guidebook of life, and you know the bible (what you believe are the commandments), and you go against them, then you do it willfully.  Are you saying that there are sins you might be committing and not know it?
> 
> ...



i am talking about pre-meditated sins... going out drinking and carousing.  cursing like a sailor. watching movies i should not watch. being worldy to the point of sin.  greed. coveting (this is a hard one)... etc.

these sins are not as prevalent in my life...  yes, if somebody almost causes me to wreck my car on the roads, i may start to blurt something out but i almost always catch myself and stop.  5 years ago i would have cussed them for a week...  i still sin daily but i have grown to HATE my sins.  all of them. there are sins of omission too that i dont even know about that i do. when you give your life to Christ, one of the "fruits" of that is HATING your sins.  i dont know much but i know i hate my sins.

i want to hate what God hates and i want to love the way God loves.  i want the mind of God, wisdom and understanding. you cant get those things by willfully sinning (again greed, coveting, cussing, etc)...  i am trying to relinquish my peebrain mind over to the mind of God.  so i want to rid myself of every sin that i can... its called sanc-ti-fi-ca-tion...


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## Double Barrel BB (Jan 13, 2009)

Big10point said:


> whats a "bump"


 

just a post that moves a topic back to the top on the list so everyone sees it...

DB BB


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## farmasis (Jan 13, 2009)

1BigBuckDown said:


> i know that... and no, i have not stopped sinning but i have stopped "willfully" sinning. i will never say that i dont sin, b/c God said if we say that, we are liars.. which is sinning!!!! i am still looking for that verse from you tho... which states that God will give a slap on the wrist for sinning???
> 
> dont misunderstand me like some others here do.... i am not saying that i have the answers... i am actually confused on this topic and have prayed about it alot... I AM NOT CLAIMING THAT I HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS...
> 
> just an fyi


 
I thought this answered it pretty well...
7Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. 9Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! 10Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. 11No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. (Hebrews 12) 

Well, I aim to be where you are because I still willfully sin. I still battle the temptations from the devil and sometimes I give into those. So, if you have made it to a level that you can control your fleshly desires, I commend you.


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## christianhunter (Jan 14, 2009)

farmasis said:


> i thought this answered it pretty well...
> 7endure hardship as discipline; god is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8if you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. 9moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the father of our spirits and live! 10our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but god disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. 11no discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. (hebrews 12)
> 
> well, i aim to be where you are because i still willfully sin. I still battle the temptations from the devil and sometimes i give into those. So, if you have made it to a level that you can control your fleshly desires, i commend you.



amen!


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## Big10point (Jan 14, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> OK, I'll try to be serious the rest of the night...



hey pigpen1, in your avatar, whose shoulder are you sitting on???


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## brownceluse (Jan 17, 2009)

OSAS is just a way for a preacher to get up at your funeral and preach you in to heaven.We have all fallen short,every one!! I beleive in OSAS to a certain extent. I beleive you can walk away from God and fall back into sin. I beleive you can sit on church pew and be saved,but have an affair with the lady next door and bust Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- wide open.Sin is Sin plain and simple.I am saved no doubt in my mind,but I can get up tomorrow and lie to my wife,and got Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----!! God sees no 1 sin greater than the other.If you hate your brother your a murderer.If you dont disipline your children then you hate them.Thats sin. I dont beleive that its allways the case that you were never saved in the first place,but I do beleive in false conversion just watch 90% of christian T.V.All you have to do is say this prayer and everything will be O.K. If the Holy Spirit is not calling you you are not saved.Paul said I die daily and thats what I try to do too. Their is no excuse to sin so the way I see it is the OSAS is just an excuse plain and simple.Jesus said that he's coming back for those that are looking for him so I guess the question we should ask our self is,are you looking for him?


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## farmasis (Jan 18, 2009)

brownceluse said:


> OSAS is just a way for a preacher to get up at your funeral and preach you in to heaven.We have all fallen short,every one!! I beleive in OSAS to a certain extent. I beleive you can walk away from God and fall back into sin. I beleive you can sit on church pew and be saved,but have an affair with the lady next door and bust Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- wide open.Sin is Sin plain and simple.I am saved no doubt in my mind,but I can get up tomorrow and lie to my wife,and got Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----!! God sees no 1 sin greater than the other.If you hate your brother your a murderer.If you dont disipline your children then you hate them.Thats sin. I dont beleive that its allways the case that you were never saved in the first place,but I do beleive in false conversion just watch 90% of christian T.V.All you have to do is say this prayer and everything will be O.K. If the Holy Spirit is not calling you you are not saved.Paul said I die daily and thats what I try to do too. Their is no excuse to sin so the way I see it is the OSAS is just an excuse plain and simple.Jesus said that he's coming back for those that are looking for him so I guess the question we should ask our self is,are you looking for him?


 
So, do you feel that you lose your salvation everytime you sin (assuming that you still sin)? Can you get it back, meaning be saved again? Will Christ have to die again or was it truly 'finished'?


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## brownceluse (Jan 18, 2009)

farmasis said:


> So, do you feel that you lose your salvation everytime you sin (assuming that you still sin)? Can you get it back, meaning be saved again? Will Christ have to die again or was it truly 'finished'?



No I do beleive OSAS,but I beleive that you can become lost back in sin [BACKSLIDEN],and miss heaven.I beleive if you dont get your sin cover by the blood you will miss Heaven!! You don't have to be Saved again,but you must have all sin under the blood.


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## HCREB (Jan 22, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> Sealed unto the DAY of redemption...Eph 4:30
> 
> 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
> KJV




thats exactly right!!!  if you grieve not the holy spirit of god.


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## HCREB (Jan 22, 2009)

Matthew 24:13

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 22, 2009)

HCREB said:


> Matthew 24:13
> 
> But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.



Hey, a Bible reader.
Thank you.


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