# Born believers: How your brain creates God



## Rage_On (Feb 5, 2009)

I would like to point out that I'm a practicing Catholic and this thread is not meant to debunk anyone's religious beliefs and points of view.  I operate on science not blind faith.  I believe God picks up where sciences leaves off.
    I just found this article extremely interesting in the cognitive avenue and how the human mind possibly uses the concept of God to protect itself from succumbing to the pressure of life.

    If one article can cause you to loose your cool and go all Jesus freak on me then you clearly have a waving religious base/structure.  Please keep the post and comments civil.
    Admins and Mods please use digression in considering deletion or locking of this thread.

Below is the full article length and below that is the body of the article.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20126941.700-born-believers-how-your-brain-creates-god.html?

*BODY:*

_WHILE many institutions collapsed during the Great Depression that began in 1929, one kind did rather well. During this leanest of times, the strictest, most authoritarian churches saw a surge in attendance.

This anomaly was documented in the early 1970s, but only now is science beginning to tell us why. It turns out that human beings have a natural inclination for religious belief, especially during hard times. Our brains effortlessly conjure up an imaginary world of spirits, gods and monsters, and the more insecure we feel, the harder it is to resist the pull of this supernatural world. It seems that our minds are finely tuned to believe in gods.

Religious ideas are common to all cultures: like language and music, they seem to be part of what it is to be human. Until recently, science has largely shied away from asking why. "It's not that religion is not important," says Paul Bloom, a psychologist at Yale University, "it's that the taboo nature of the topic has meant there has been little progress."

The origin of religious belief is something of a mystery, but in recent years scientists have started to make suggestions. One leading idea is that religion is an evolutionary adaptation that makes people more likely to survive and pass their genes onto the next generation. In this view, shared religious belief helped our ancestors form tightly knit groups that cooperated in hunting, foraging and childcare, enabling these groups to outcompete others. In this way, the theory goes, religion was selected for by evolution, and eventually permeated every human society (New Scientist, 28 January 2006, p 30)

The religion-as-an-adaptation theory doesn't wash with everybody, however. As anthropologist Scott Atran of the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor points out, the benefits of holding such unfounded beliefs are questionable, in terms of evolutionary fitness. "I don't think the idea makes much sense, given the kinds of things you find in religion," he says. A belief in life after death, for example, is hardly compatible with surviving in the here-and-now and propagating your genes. Moreover, if there are adaptive advantages of religion, they do not explain its origin, but simply how it spread.

An alternative being put forward by Atran and others is that religion emerges as a natural by-product of the way the human mind works.
That's not to say that the human brain has a "god module" in the same way that it has a language module that evolved specifically for acquiring language. Rather, some of the unique cognitive capacities that have made us so successful as a species also work together to create a tendency for supernatural thinking. "There's now a lot of evidence that some of the foundations for our religious beliefs are hard-wired," says Bloom.

Much of that evidence comes from experiments carried out on children, who are seen as revealing a "default state" of the mind that persists, albeit in modified form, into adulthood. "Children the world over have a strong natural receptivity to believing in gods because of the way their minds work, and this early developing receptivity continues to anchor our intuitive thinking throughout life," says anthropologist Justin Barrett of the University of Oxford.

So how does the brain conjure up gods? One of the key factors, says Bloom, is the fact that our brains have separate cognitive systems for dealing with living things - things with minds, or at least volition - and inanimate objects.
This separation happens very early in life. Bloom and colleagues have shown that babies as young as five months make a distinction between inanimate objects and people. Shown a box moving in a stop-start way, babies show surprise. But a person moving in the same way elicits no surprise. To babies, objects ought to obey the laws of physics and move in a predictable way. People, on the other hand, have their own intentions and goals, and move however they choose.

"Mind and matter"
Bloom says the two systems are autonomous, leaving us with two viewpoints on the world: one that deals with minds, and one that handles physical aspects of the world. He calls this innate assumption that mind and matter are distinct "common-sense dualism". The body is for physical processes, like eating and moving, while the mind carries our consciousness in a separate - and separable - package. "We very naturally accept you can leave your body in a dream, or in astral projection or some sort of magic," Bloom says. "These are universal views."

There is plenty of evidence that thinking about disembodied minds comes naturally. People readily form relationships with non-existent others: roughly half of all 4-year-olds have had an imaginary friend, and adults often form and maintain relationships with dead relatives, fictional characters and fantasy partners. As Barrett points out, this is an evolutionarily useful skill. Without it we would be unable to maintain large social hierarchies and alliances or anticipate what an unseen enemy might be planning. "Requiring a body around to think about its mind would be a great liability," he says.

Useful as it is, common-sense dualism also appears to prime the brain for supernatural concepts such as life after death. In 2004, Jesse Bering of Queen's University Belfast, UK, put on a puppet show for a group of pre-school children. During the show, an alligator ate a mouse. The researchers then asked the children questions about the physical existence of the mouse, such as: "Can the mouse still be sick? Does it need to eat or drink?" The children said no. But when asked more "spiritual" questions, such as "does the mouse think and know things?", the children answered yes.

"Default to god"
Based on these and other experiments, Bering considers a belief in some form of life apart from that experienced in the body to be the default setting of the human brain. Education and experience teach us to override it, but it never truly leaves us, he says. From there it is only a short step to conceptualising spirits, dead ancestors and, of course, gods, says Pascal Boyer, a psychologist at Washington University in St Louis, Missouri. Boyer points out that people expect their gods' minds to work very much like human minds, suggesting they spring from the same brain system that enables us to think about absent or non-existent people.

The ability to conceive of gods, however, is not sufficient to give rise to religion. The mind has another essential attribute: an overdeveloped sense of cause and effect which primes us to see purpose and design everywhere, even where there is none. "You see bushes rustle, you assume there's somebody or something there," Bloom says.

This over-attribution of cause and effect probably evolved for survival. If there are predators around, it is no good spotting them 9 times out of 10. Running away when you don't have to is a small price to pay for avoiding danger when the threat is real.

Again, experiments on young children reveal this default state of the mind. Children as young as three readily attribute design and purpose to inanimate objects. When Deborah Kelemen of the University of Arizona in Tucson asked 7 and 8-year-old children questions about inanimate objects and animals, she found that most believed they were created for a specific purpose. Pointy rocks are there for animals to scratch themselves on. Birds exist "to make nice music", while rivers exist so boats have something to float on. "It was extraordinary to hear children saying that things like mountains and clouds were 'for' a purpose and appearing highly resistant to any counter-suggestion," says Kelemen.
In similar experiments, Olivera Petrovich of the University of Oxford asked pre-school children about the origins of natural things such as plants and animals. She found they were seven times as likely to answer that they were made by god than made by people.

These cognitive biases are so strong, says Petrovich, that children tend to spontaneously invent the concept of god without adult intervention: "They rely on their everyday experience of the physical world and construct the concept of god on the basis of this experience." Because of this, when children hear the claims of religion they seem to make perfect sense.

Our predisposition to believe in a supernatural world stays with us as we get older. Kelemen has found that adults are just as inclined to see design and intention where there is none. Put under pressure to explain natural phenomena, adults often fall back on teleological arguments, such as "trees produce oxygen so that animals can breathe" or "the sun is hot because warmth nurtures life". Though she doesn't yet have evidence that this tendency is linked to belief in god, Kelemen does have results showing that most adults tacitly believe they have souls.

Boyer is keen to point out that religious adults are not childish or weak-minded. Studies reveal that religious adults have very different mindsets from children, concentrating more on the moral dimensions of their faith and less on its supernatural attributes.

Even so, religion is an inescapable artefact of the wiring in our brain, says Bloom. "All humans possess the brain circuitry and that never goes away." Petrovich adds that even adults who describe themselves as atheists and agnostics are prone to supernatural thinking. Bering has seen this too. When one of his students carried out interviews with atheists, it became clear that they often tacitly attribute purpose to significant or traumatic moments in their lives, as if some agency were intervening to make it happen. "They don't completely exorcise the ghost of god - they just muzzle it," Bering says.
The fact that trauma is so often responsible for these slips gives a clue as to why adults find it so difficult to jettison their innate belief in gods, Atran says. The problem is something he calls "the tragedy of cognition". Humans can anticipate future events, remember the past and conceive of how things could go wrong - including their own death, which is hard to deal with. "You've got to figure out a solution, otherwise you're overwhelmed," Atran says. When natural brain processes give us a get-out-of-jail card, we take it.

That view is backed up by an experiment published late last year (Science, vol 322, p 115). Jennifer Whitson of the University of Texas in Austin and Adam Galinsky of Northwestern University in Evanston, Illinois, asked people what patterns they could see in arrangements of dots or stock market information. Before asking, Whitson and Galinsky made half their participants feel a lack of control, either by giving them feedback unrelated to their performance or by having them recall experiences where they had lost control of a situation.
The results were striking. The subjects who sensed a loss of control were much more likely to see patterns where there were none. "We were surprised that the phenomenon is as widespread as it is," Whitson says. What's going on, she suggests, is that when we feel a lack of control we fall back on superstitious ways of thinking. That would explain why religions enjoy a revival during hard times.

So if religion is a natural consequence of how our brains work, where does that leave god? All the researchers involved stress that none of this says anything about the existence or otherwise of gods: as Barratt points out, whether or not a belief is true is independent of why people believe it.
It does, however, suggests that god isn't going away, and that atheism will always be a hard sell. Religious belief is the "path of least resistance", says Boyer, while disbelief requires effort.

These findings also challenge the idea that religion is an adaptation. "Yes, religion helps create large societies - and once you have large societies you can outcompete groups that don't," Atran says. "But it arises as an artefact of the ability to build fictive worlds. I don't think there's an adaptation for religion any more than there's an adaptation to make airplanes."
I don't think there's an adaptation for religion any more than there's an adaptation to make airplanes 
Supporters of the adaptation hypothesis, however, say that the two ideas are not mutually exclusive. As David Sloan Wilson of Binghamton University in New York state points out, elements of religious belief could have arisen as a by-product of brain evolution, but religion per se was selected for because it promotes group survival. "Most adaptations are built from previous structures," he says. "Boyer's basic thesis and my basic thesis could both be correct."
Robin Dunbar of the University of Oxford - the researcher most strongly identified with the religion-as-adaptation argument - also has no problem with the idea that religion co-opts brain circuits that evolved for something else. Richard Dawkins, too, sees the two camps as compatible. "Why shouldn't both be correct?" he says. "I actually think they are."

Ultimately, discovering the true origins of something as complex as religion will be difficult. There is one experiment, however, that could go a long way to proving whether Boyer, Bloom and the rest are onto something profound. Ethical issues mean it won't be done any time soon, but that hasn't stopped people speculating about the outcome.

It goes something like this. Left to their own devices, children create their own "creole" languages using hard-wired linguistic brain circuits. A similar experiment would provide our best test of the innate religious inclinations of humans. Would a group of children raised in isolation spontaneously create their own religious beliefs? "I think the answer is yes," says Bloom.
Read our related editorial: The credit crunch could be a boon for irrational belief

God of the gullibile
In The God Delusion, Richard Dawkins argues that religion is propagated through indoctrination, especially of children. Evolution predisposes children to swallow whatever their parents and tribal elders tell them, he argues, as trusting obedience is valuable for survival. This also leads to what Dawkins calls "slavish gullibility" in the face of religious claims.
If children have an innate belief in god, however, where does that leave the indoctrination hypothesis? "I am thoroughly happy with believing that children are predisposed to believe in invisible gods - I always was," says Dawkins. "But I also find the indoctrination hypothesis plausible. The two influences could, and I suspect do, reinforce one another." He suggests that evolved gullibility converts a child's general predisposition to believe in god into a specific belief in the god (or gods) their parents worship

_


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## Huntinfool (Feb 5, 2009)

I'll read it and let you know what I think.  


But "I operate on science and not blind faith" and "I think God picks up where science leaves off" are two statements that I think you local Catholic Church leader would be very interested to hear.

I think you may find that your church disagrees with your assertion that you are practicing their brand of religion my man.

But I just went all "Jesus Freak" on you just then, didn't I?  My bad.

I love how you just threw out a jab and then ran for your life calling the mods in to protect you.  You'll fit in nicely around here.  Welcome!


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## Rage_On (Feb 5, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> I'll read it and let you know what I think.
> 
> 
> *But "I operate on science and not blind faith" and "I think God picks up where science leaves off" are two statements that I think you local Catholic Church leader would be very interested to hear.*
> ...



Yes, you are correct Huntinfool.  Fr. Fred would not agree with all of my points on science but by questioning the world around I'm only acting out the gift of free thinking God has provided me with and all humans as well.

I struggled with the "Jesus freak" comment and attempted to come up with a better phrase but I an extremely blunt person and at the moment it struck me as being acceptable. Maybe religiously strong willed people would be a more acceptable label.


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## Huntinfool (Feb 5, 2009)

Well there are plenty of religious strong wills around here.  Free thinking IS indeed a gift.  Questioning the truths that are reveal to you as a Christian in the Bible is not simply "acting out" that gift though.

Just trying to help.  Perhaps I reacted too strongly to your comments.  You'll find that I have a lot of questions as well.  But, as I follower of Christ, I have accepted that there are some things that I may not ever be able to understand this side of heaven.  

It's a hard reality...but it's the truth.


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## rjcruiser (Feb 5, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> I would like to point out that I'm a practicing Catholic and this thread is not meant to debunk anyone's religious beliefs and points of view.  I operate on science not blind faith.  I believe God picks up where sciences leaves off.
> 
> I just found this article extremely interesting in the cognitive avenue and how the human mind possibly uses the concept of God to protect itself from succumbing to the pressure of life.
> 
> ...



I totally disagree with the article....and no, my faith isn't waving. 

Maybe the reason that churches did so well in the 30s during the depression is that it caused people to realize that money and possessions weren't what made them happy.  That they didn't matter in the big scheme of things.  That family and God were more important and gave them true happiness.


Funny thing is, I'm kinda glad to see a Catholic post something like this up.  Finally, a link to something other than www.thisistheofficialposition oftheCatholicchurch.com


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## gtparts (Feb 5, 2009)

Most of the observable  and documented thought and behavior is genuine. I can not see anyone being able to effectively refute the known facts. 

I find tremendous latitude in the conclusions one might take away from those facts. Certainly, Dawkins finds support for his beliefs because he presumes that they originate out of particular physiological, pyschological, and sociological paradigms, independent of any deity.

I, on the other hand, attribute these paradigms  to be constructs of God. Our affinity, our need for a benevolent deity is because God integrated that into our very makeup.

As for, "God picking up where sciences leaves off", I find that quite humorous. Science is mere minutia to God. He could, at the drop of a hat, restructure science to have half as many chemical elements, vanadium based life-forms, no concept of temperature what-so-ever, light that is liquid, and energy that can be stored in and retrieved from thoughts. God created science. Apart from Him, it does not exist.

Peace.


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## Rage_On (Feb 5, 2009)

There is nothing in the bible that I believe to be fake or un true.
Perception and interpretation is always varying per person and the bible was written by the hand of man, thus leaving some blanks to be filled in by perception of the moment.


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## rjcruiser (Feb 5, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> There is nothing in the bible that I believe to be fake or un true.
> Perception and interpretation is always varying per person and the bible was written by the hand of man, thus leaving some blanks to be filled in by perception of the moment.




Read up.

II Tim 3:16

All scripture is inspired by God.


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## gtparts (Feb 5, 2009)

Chalk me up as a Jesus Freak!  One could only do worse.

Welcome, Rage.


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## gtparts (Feb 5, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> There is nothing in the bible that I believe to be fake or un true.
> Perception and interpretation is always varying per person and the bible was written by the hand of man, thus leaving some blanks to be filled in by perception of the moment.



Maybe the perceived "blanks" are God's way of saying, "You don't need to know." or "Don't go there; trust that I only have the best in mind for you."

Peace.


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## Rage_On (Feb 5, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> I totally disagree with the article....and no, my faith isn't waving.
> 
> *Maybe the reason that churches did so well in the 30s during the depression is that it caused people to realize that money and possessions weren't what made them happy. * That they didn't matter in the big scheme of things.  That family and God were more important and gave them true happiness.
> 
> ...



I by no means should be considered the cream of the crop in representing the Catholic Church and with that being said I don't want any of my view points to reflect poorly on the general Catholic community.  
I speak only for myself and in return do not fall behind church doctrine to explain my actions.

Also your statement about the depression is a true in its own right and I can see/agree with you on that fact.


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## gtparts (Feb 5, 2009)

> I would like to point out that I'm a practicing Catholic ....



Why do you practice? What is your motivation?


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## Rage_On (Feb 5, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Read up.
> 
> II Tim 3:16
> 
> All scripture is inspired by God.



It sure is and it's written by the hand of man.


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## rjcruiser (Feb 5, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> I by no means should be considered the cream of the crop in representing the Catholic Church and with that being said I don't want any of my view points to reflect poorly on the general Catholic community.
> I speak only for myself and in return do not fall behind church doctrine to explain my actions.



Oh...it doesn't...and I know.  

I'm a  type of person.  I said it not for you, but for Big7, PJason, Dominic, Free Willie and last but not least, Dawg2.


By the way...welcome to the forum.  We  eachother to smitherines, but at the end of the day most of us will agree to disagree.


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## rjcruiser (Feb 5, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> It sure is and it's written by the hand of man.



Okay...but do you realize what Inspired means? 

That means that nothing that man wanted to put in there got in there.  Only what God wanted to be put down got written.  As such, there are no mistakes, no sinful diversions, nothing wrong with it.

You can't believe that it is 100% inspired by God and then say that it has some warped views from the men that penned it.


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## Huntinfool (Feb 5, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> It sure is and it's written by the hand of man.



But that's a different thread....actually it IS a different thread.


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## rjcruiser (Feb 5, 2009)

btw, is that a chic fil a bag on your desk?

Boy...I wish I had some of that for lunch.


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## Rage_On (Feb 5, 2009)

gtparts said:


> Why do you practice? What is your motivation?



Born and raised in the CC.  Also born and raised in Warner Robins.  Of course with my parents being Catholic I was really only exposed to one point of view being I only hand one.  I grew inside the CC and became an active member. etc etc etc

I was only exposed to other types of religious setting through my friends and girls I've dated over the years.  Many being part of the Baptist community I attended their services and churches.  There were a lot on great qualities in each one, but some sides I did not agree with and support.  I found it very un-nerving the negative view towards the Catholic religion.  Most was do to lack of understanding and ignorance.  I by no means fault one church and its view points against another church which is similar but different in its own right.
After several years of frequenting and learning about different religious I came to the conclusion the Catholic views fall in line with many on my personal core view points and beliefs.  I will be the first to admit that as I've grown older and life events have taken their "lashes" at me.  I've grown, some might say away, from the strict Catholic mind set.  I can't help it, I am what I am.  It doesn't make me any less of a Christian; just I have me own views.  

Over the years the CC has relaxed a lot of its old stances and strict doctrine.  The CC continues to grow and accept more science which is another reason I love it so much.  Sacred Heart does not preach judgment based upon anyone's religious views as long as those views do not preach hate or disrespect.  Respect one another as God tells you to do.

And thank you for the warm welcome.

*also forgive any misspellings or grammar errors


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## Rage_On (Feb 5, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Okay...but do you realize what Inspired means?
> 
> That means that nothing that man wanted to put in there got in there.  Only what God wanted to be put down got written.  As such, there are no mistakes, no sinful diversions, nothing wrong with it.
> 
> You can't believe that it is 100% inspired by God and then say that it has some warped views from the men that penned it.



Ooo I totally agree but one can not argue the corruption of man.  The bible has been written several times over and in several version.  Not saying it false just saying that a few bad apples could have twist words around to suit their own needs at the time in the name of God.
An no their is no Chic'fila at my desk lol  U just made me hungry tho


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## Rage_On (Feb 5, 2009)

Dominic said:


> Define Please



I'm about to roll out for the day but I will be more then happy to point a key turning points in the CC belief and stand point(s).  I'm sure you know what I speak of when the topic of evolution is brought up; I think it happened a few years back straight from the Vatican.  If something like evolution can be reevaluated and a difference stance can be taken by the CC anything can to a degree. That its' self is a whole other thread and if you wish to create one I will be more the happy to take part.


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## Rage_On (Feb 5, 2009)

Dominic said:


> Please do
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is it? what has the CC stance been on evolution oooooosince day one and what is it now?  Also what was the Second Vatican Council about....? If you think the CC is the same as it was merely 100 years ago you are not correct. 
I don’t want to argue CC theology because I realize your stance already and fighting a never ending conversation is pointless beyond words.  I will discuss the matter on a thread if you like.  please create a thread and PM.


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## rjcruiser (Feb 5, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> Is it? what has the CC stance been on evolution oooooosince day one and what is it now?  Also what was the Second Vatican Council about....? If you think the CC is the same as it was merely 100 years ago you are not correct.



Hmmm...Rage...you and I agree on something


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## rjcruiser (Feb 5, 2009)

Dominic said:


> http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis_en.html



See Rage...this is what I was talking about in my thread above about the link thingy.


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## fivesolas (Feb 5, 2009)

that was way too long, I'll read it..whenever.


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## Rage_On (Feb 5, 2009)

Dominic said:


> No need the Catholic Church has never either Doctrinally or Dogmatically defined Evolution. Popes have spoken before and have said that some evolutionary theories are incompatible with the teaching of the Church, I would suggest _Humani Generis_ by Pope Pius XII.
> http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis_en.html



http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/vaticanview.html
http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/8-27-2006-106762.asp

i can hyper link also

The CC stance is not the same as it was from day one and you know it's not on the subject of; theories of evolution, intellegent design and creationism.


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## Rage_On (Feb 5, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> See Rage...this is what I was talking about in my thread above about the link thingy.



i knew it was going to happen


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## Rage_On (Feb 5, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> I would agree, there is a difference.



honestly i have no idea what u typed because your avatar is freaking me out.

but your quote is awesome.


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## Huntinfool (Feb 5, 2009)

I thought you were wrapping up for the day?  It's like a this giant sucking sound that Ross Perot talked about isn't it? 

You just can't stop checking to see if someone disagreed with you!


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## Rage_On (Feb 5, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> I thought you were wrapping up for the day?  It's like a this giant sucking sound that Ross Perot talked about isn't it?
> 
> You just can't stop checking to see if someone disagreed with you!



hahahaha I'm like a fat kid to a candy bar.


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## Rage_On (Feb 5, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> Why does everyone make fun of my dawg?



I'm not sure but it was like a car crash....I don't want to look but then i do, then look away again...then look back


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## rjcruiser (Feb 5, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> Why does everyone make fun of my dawg?



You know dawg...I like it.  My wife comments on it whenever she sees it, but from the get go, I've liked it.  Don't change it.  It is much better than your real dog, Danica and whatever else you put up there.


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## gtparts (Feb 5, 2009)

I'm just fascinated that anyone would put two pale green cats-eye marbles up a dog's nose.


 Does the ASPCA know about this?


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## Big7 (Feb 5, 2009)

I see we have another expert aboard.


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## Rage_On (Feb 5, 2009)

My friend stated the following about the article

From article;
*This anomaly was documented in the early 1970s, but only now is science beginning to tell us why. It turns out that human beings have a natural inclination for religious belief, especially during hard times. Our brains effortlessly conjure up an imaginary world of spirits, gods and monsters, and the more insecure we feel, the harder it is to resist the pull of this supernatural world. It seems that our minds are finely tuned to believe in gods.*

His comment:
Perhaps our mind was finely tuned by God to turn to him in times of crisis. I don't believe God allows disasters/trauma to happen in our lives because he hates us or takes pleasure in it. Man's sin (greed, lust, hate, etc.) is the root cause for the situations that we have to face. Just look at today's economy and what it's doing to people's lives. Is that God's fault or man's?


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## crackerdave (Feb 5, 2009)

I'll be as honest and civil as I can be:
All I read was the title of this thread,and I thought "That's one of the most foolish things I've ever "heard" anybody say - that my brain or anything else created God."
 That's all I read,and all I'll say.
Good day and God bless you,rage on.


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## jettman96 (Feb 5, 2009)

Having given the idea for Rage to put this article on the forum (he sits behind me at work) This thread is definitely not headed in the direction I thought it would.  LOL


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## gtparts (Feb 5, 2009)

jettman96 said:


> Having given the idea for Rage to put this article on the forum (he sits behind me at work) This thread is definitely not headed in the direction I thought it would.  LOL



And what direction would that have been?


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## Dixie Dawg (Feb 5, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> If one article can cause you to loose your cool and go all Jesus freak on me then you clearly have a waving religious base/structure.  Please keep the post and comments civil.
> Admins and Mods please use digression in considering deletion or locking of this thread.



I haven't ever seen you post in this part of the forum before, but apparently you've perused it once or twice....      

Great article, by the way... very interesting!!

Welcome to the mosh pit!   

P.S.  I think you meant to ask the mods to use _discretion_... but then again, perhaps _digression_ would be more appropriate?


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## jettman96 (Feb 5, 2009)

gtparts said:


> And what direction would that have been?



Let's just say I was expecting a more harsh response to the overall subject.


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## Dixie Dawg (Feb 5, 2009)

jettman96 said:


> Let's just say I was expecting a more harsh response to the overall subject.



You must've been around here before too!


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## Rage_On (Feb 5, 2009)

rangerdave said:


> I'll be as honest and civil as I can be:
> All I read was the title of this thread,and I thought "That's one of the most foolish things I've ever "heard" anybody say - that my brain or anything else created God."
> That's all I read,and all I'll say.
> Good day and God bless you,rage on.



At least you kept and open mind.....
You didn't read the article so not to be harsh but your post was worthless.  You can't comment on something you didn't take the time to read and if you not going to read it don't post.  That's just common sense, like the common sense God gave you.  
I hope the narrow mind box you live in has windows so you can see the rest of us enjoying life.  Nothing gets me fired up more the ignorant people.

I might not agree with Dominic but I at least take the time to read his links and his post.  With in reason he at least had something to back up his post, even if it was simply a hyper link.
I will do my best to keep an objective mind set on any subject matter in life, take a chance and enlighten yourself.


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 5, 2009)

Dominic said:


> First from day one of what?
> 
> When the theory of evolution was first introduced?
> 
> ...




Dominic after reviewing all your post I see where you are coming from on the church doctrine vs dogma.  You are correct in stating that 95% of the doctrine has not changed on paper.  
The doctrine, being the core beliefs, should have not been tossed in the mix by my self.  I was more so going along the lines of religious acceptance, evolution/creationism, etc etc.  Pope John Paul II was a key role in opening the church up to a more scientific mindset.  Benedict XVI is a more conservative pope and probably elected for that reason....and that I believe he is a stepper pope for the next pope which I believe with of African descent.

In a nutshell I got ahead of myself.


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 5, 2009)

jettman96 said:


> Let's just say I was expecting a more harsh response to the overall subject.



jettman96 and I talked about the article at work and since I'm one to toss anything in the mix that invites people to "think", I figured that make my debut with a religious/scientific thread.
Jettman96 knows that I don't shy away from any subject matter and if you're willing to present your side of the subject with reason and facts that I'll listen to what ever you have to say.  I'm like this because I believe the more experiences and outside view points you receive in life the more round and open you are to the REAL world around you.  



Dixie Dawg thanks for the welcome and to all others that have extended their hands.


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## Big7 (Feb 6, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> I totally disagree with the article....and no, my faith isn't waving.
> 
> Maybe the reason that churches did so well in the 30s during the depression is that it caused people to realize that money and possessions weren't what made them happy.  That they didn't matter in the big scheme of things.  That family and God were more important and gave them true happiness.
> 
> ...



You don't really believe that do you?
Please tell me it ain't so.


----------



## jawja_peach (Feb 6, 2009)

*have'n fun yet?*

Yup, Welcome to the mosh pit. It's awesome to see someone on here that writes more than I do. 

90% of my family are Catholic. I am not. I am Independent Bible Believing Baptist. 

What is science? 
*Science:* 
_1) a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws.
2) knowledge, as of facts or principles; knowledge gained by systematic study._

_What do the scriptures say about Knowledge/Science..?? _ (just a a few verses)

_1 Cor 12:8-11

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
KJV


Eph 4:12-15

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
KJV

Eph 3:19

19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge , that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God
KJV

2 Cor 4:6

6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ
KJV_

This is just a few scriptures I read about 'knowledge' and no where do I find that 'God picks up where science/knowledge leaves off'. Knowledge is a 'gift' from God. Without God there would be NO knowledge. 

I do not know why I was led to include all this scripture. I mean it's 4:01am and I had no intent to write anything, just to read. When led to do, I do. Or try to do. There are things God does, and has us do, that we do not know the why. When we try to understand every thing we take away from an 'all knowing God' that on this side of Eternity, we will never fully understand. Somethings are better left unknowing. I bet you, and every one else that's reading this, have met a someone that you liked, and befriended, just to find out from someone something that changed your whole impression of that person. For instance, I met this woman named Libby. She was really nice, talked about the Lord and how she loved Him and how He had blessed her so much even when she wasn't living for Him. When I later spoke to a member of my family telling them about the 'Good Christian Lady' I met, was bombarded with all the things that this woman had done in her past. Now, God can forgive and forget, but man will never. Now when I think of this woman I don't remember what all she said about the Lord, but instead ALL the things I was told about her past life before Christ.

It's late/early....Again, I don't know why or where this is going, but the Bible says Gods word will not go out void. 

Looks like you're already fit'n in around here...Look forward to reading more of your entries...


Blessings to all,
Peach~


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## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

Thx Jawja

Also to anyone who feels it necessary to PM me with hate mail thank you.  You’ve proven to me that there are morons every where in this world.  YES this is my first thread and real interaction on the GON.  Just because I don’t feel the need to interject on every subject title, topic or discussion doesn’t make my thread any less legitimate then your own.  Basically I’m making a hand gesture at the screen right now and if you feel the need to call me out on something don’t hide behind a PM.  Let everyone see your narrow minded, ignorant, and insecure self. Have a great day.

Now back to the OP:

I just find it fascinating how complex the human body is along with the rest of the world that God has given us.  I'm a religious person but I dissect everything around me.  I look for a scientific reason for anything that happens around me.  
The article brings to light one side of the story that is just as valid as the next.  It's a theory.  It hasn't been 100% confirmed.  It's our duties as humans to learn as much as we can about out world during the brief moments we are fortunate to feel the sand between our toes, wind in our hair, the water upon our skin and the sun against our face.  Not doing so in my two cent opinion is the opposite of what I feel God expects us to do.


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## Dixie Dawg (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> Also to anyone who feels it necessary to PM me with hate mail thank you.  You’ve proven to me that there are morons every where in this world.  YES this is my first thread and real interaction on the GON.  Just because I don’t feel the need to interject on every subject title, topic or discussion doesn’t make my thread any less legitimate then your own.  Basically I’m making a hand gesture at the screen right now and if you feel the need to call me out on something don’t hide behind a PM.  Let everyone see your narrow minded, ignorant, and insecure self. Have a great day.




  
I have a feeling you might as well get used to that  

Like I said... welcome to the mosh pit!!  

Seriously, there are some great people here of all interests that welcome thoughtful discussion.  It isn't all that bad


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## Banjo (Feb 6, 2009)

> Basically I’m making a hand gesture at the screen right now and if you feel the need to call me out on something don’t hide behind a PM. Let everyone see your narrow minded, ignorant, and insecure self. Have a great day.



Uhhh...what kind of a rant is this....A "hand gesture" at the computer......


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## Big10point (Feb 6, 2009)

to reference the question in the post....  how our brain creates God....  well, our brain should not "create" God... God has given us all that we need in Scriptures to know God just the way He is...  without adding to or taking away from it.... when we allow our little p brains to "create" God then thats where we go wrong...  our minds cannot fathom the greatness of God nor "create" Him... we cannot create anything... much less God. thats why there are so many religions today with all of them being false except True Christianity. because people try to create their own God...  we cant do that. we have to allow God tell us who He is and then we accept the real and living God or we dont... when we dont then we end up with a false god... and false religion and a false salvation... what a shame because helll will not be false.... it will be real...


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## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Uhhh...what kind of a rant is this....A "hand gesture" at the computer......




it was a thumbs up....i promise...cough cough


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## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

Big10point said:


> to reference the question in the post....  how our brain creates God....  well, our brain should not "create" God... God has given us all that we need in Scriptures to know God just the way He is...  without adding to or taking away from it.... when we allow our little p brains to "create" God then thats where we go wrong...  our minds cannot fathom the greatness of God nor "create" Him... we cannot create anything... much less God. *thats why there are so many religions today with all of them being false except True Christianity*. because people try to create their own God...  we cant do that. we have to allow God tell us who He is and then we accept the real and living God or we dont... when we dont then we end up with a false god... and false religion and a false salvation... what a shame because helll will not be false.... it will be real...



Bud and this is why religion is considered by some to be the root of all evil along with all that is good.

I will have to respectfully disagree with that point of view.  Christians are no better, equal but not better then Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc.

*I don't support people who worship Satan because they preach evil.


----------



## Banjo (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> it was a thumbs up....i promise...cough cough



I appreciate the clarification....

I skimmed the article...

This may have been brought up, and perhaps I missed it in some of the comments..perhaps we all have some sense of "God" because we were created in His image.  I don't think our brains "create" God.  I think humans are born with an innate sense of God...although many suppress it in unrighteousness....

Did our brains "create" this world and all that exists in it?  Instead of "creating" God, I think our fallen brains have "created"  many options to God, like evolution.

Fallen man is willing to believe anything other than there is a triune God of the universe who created all that we see....including us, which makes us accountable to Him for our lives and actions.  For many, that is  a hard pill to swallow.  For me, it is comfort and a reason to hope.


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## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

Banjo said:


> I appreciate the clarification....
> 
> I skimmed the article...
> 
> ...




I love the statement in bold.  Very well worded. +1

Now the comment in red......fallen minds basically created science?  Of did God allow us to use science to process though out the ages and find a better understanding of the world around us?


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## gtparts (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> At least you kept and open mind.....
> You didn't read the article so not to be harsh but your post was worthless.  You can't comment on something you didn't take the time to read and if you not going to read it don't post.  That's just common sense, like the common sense God gave you.
> I hope the narrow mind box you live in has windows so you can see the rest of us enjoying life.  Nothing gets me fired up more the ignorant people.
> 
> ...



Rage,

I ask you to back off on the thinly veiled attacks above. I found the wording on the original post mildly offensive, but was willing to look into what you had to "say". Others, apparently, decided the wording showed a lack of understanding and/or tact and rejected the title as unworthy of further consideration. Just because your post was rejected out of hand is no reason to get defensive. My advise is to let it go.

Peace.


----------



## PWalls (Feb 6, 2009)

My brain/mind does not "create" God. He created me witht the ability to have a relationship with Him. To advocate that we can "create" God is approaching blasphemy. God also created science (well He created everything). So, to say that God starts off where science left off is a fallacy as well. Trying to use science to explain God is wrong.


----------



## Banjo (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> I love the statement in bold.  Very well worded. +1
> 
> Now the comment in red......fallen minds basically created science?  Of did God allow us to use science to process though out the ages and find a better understanding of the world around us?



We don't have a "better understanding" of the world around us...and God would have never promoted it, IF it leaves Him, as the Creator, out of the equation...as does Evolution.  (I am not speaking of Theistic Evolution which is a horse of a different color that tries to "mesh" the Creation story with Fallen man's theory of Evolution.)

True knowledge ALWAYS begins with God...The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom...and knowledge of the Holy One will give us understanding.


----------



## jettman96 (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> Now the comment in red......fallen minds basically created science?  Of did God allow us to use science to process though out the ages and find a better understanding of the world around us?



+1 on this statement...

If it wasn't the case  of God giving us the ability understand the world around to include physics.  We would all still be living straw huts and riding donkeys.  

We would not have the medicine that enables us to live healthier/longer lives.

The list can go on and on.  

My point being that, I agree that instinctually humans brains cling to the supernatural as way to explain the things that we don't understand.  Ultimately, in our God gives us a purpose for being here and a purpose for life.  

If you look at many of the idol based religions (i.e. Incas, Mayans, and many more that still exist today) they used the various gods to explain why things happen.  And if you examine Christianity it really is no different.

And just so you know... Yes I believe in god but my mind is open to other religions and I accept that other people have their right to believe that God may exist in different form.  Shoot who's to say that other religions don't just worship the same God, just with a different understanding.


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## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

gtparts said:


> Rage,
> 
> I ask you to back off on the thinly veiled attacks above. I found the wording on the *original post mildly offensive*, but was willing to look into what you had to "say". Others, apparently, decided the wording showed a lack of understanding and/or tact and rejected the title as unworthy of further consideration. Just because your post was rejected out of hand is no reason to get defensive. My advise is to let it go.
> 
> Peace.



I'm sure you are referring to the "Jesus freak" statement.
If offense was taken by anyone then I apologize.  I would go back and change if it would make a difference but then again a few posts would seem pointless and confusing.

I don't look at Jesus freak as slander or ill will.  I should have use better tact on such a sensitive subject matter.  But if two words were enough to upset someone into not reading further in to the thread based upon its title and then writing it off all together....that's their loss.  If they feel the need to rant with out furthering their knowledge and read what I'm presenting then when I issue a posting to those individuals I feel no remorse.


And thank you for not PM me on this.  I understand where you are coming from.


----------



## Big10point (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> Bud and this is why religion is considered by some to be the root of all evil along with all that is good.
> 
> I will have to respectfully disagree with that point of view.  Christians are no better, equal but not better then Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc.
> 
> *I don't support people who worship Satan because they preach evil.



are Christians "better than" other people... i would say no but they are "saved" from the eternal torments of helll.  where as the religious unsaved are not saved from helll... so does that make us better??  but God did say:

1 John 4:4 
 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he (the saved) that is in You (Christ), than he (unsaved) that is in the world (babylon)...

so is the saved man "greater" than the unsaved??? there is a difference between saved Christians and Hindus, Buddhas etc.... they are saved... and Children of God.

what good is it to be child of God?

Romans 8:17
And if children, _then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ;_ if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together

so the child of God is a joint heir with Christ... the Hindu and Buddhist is not... so i'd say that is a pretty big deal... it is to me... but no i am no different in the sense of sin as the Hindu or false religious person... we are all dead to sin, its just i have my faith in Christ where the unsaved does not...


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## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

PWalls said:


> My brain/mind does not "create" God. He created me witht the ability to have a relationship with Him. To advocate that we can "create" God is approaching blasphemy. God also created science (well He created everything). So, to say that God starts off where science left off is a fallacy as well. Trying to use science to explain God is wrong.



The article is simply a physiological view point.  

And using science to explain God’s work in the world around you is not blasphemy or wrong.  Some can argue that God created man, he created our minds, and he therefore created our ability to use science.  Like I said before perspective is everything.


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## PWalls (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> Now the comment in red......fallen minds basically created science?  Of did God allow us to use science to process though out the ages and find a better understanding of the world around us?



God created science. We have gained a lot of knowledge and understanding of our world around us through that science. However, people are twisting science into becoming its own god. When science disagrees with Scripture, the science is plain wrong. Science is never meant to be a replacement for faith in God. Between the two, faith is the stronger and more reliable.


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

Big10point said:


> are Christians "better than" other people... i would say no but they are "saved" from the eternal torments of helll.  where as the religious unsaved are not saved from helll... so does that make us better??  but God did say:
> 
> 1 John 4:4
> 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he (the saved) that is in You (Christ), than he (unsaved) that is in the world (babylon)...
> ...



I guess the golden rule does not apply then here?
Because you would surely would want some one telling you that you religion was false and you were doomed.  Doesn’t matter if they walk and lived a loving life.  

So if someone in the middle of the jungle never having the opportunity to read the bible or exposed to it is therefore going to the hot place?  I find it highly unlikely that God will doom this person because if this is true then there is no mercy.
I'm sorry but I can't agree with the philosophy that one has to be saved to enter heaven.


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## gtparts (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> I'm sure you are referring to the "Jesus freak" statement.
> If offense was taken by anyone then I apologize.  I would go back and change if it would make a difference but then again a few posts would seem pointless and confusing.
> 
> I don't look at Jesus freak as slander or ill will.  I should have use better tact on such a sensitive subject matter.  But if two words were enough to upset someone into not reading further in to the thread based upon its title and then writing it off all together....that's their loss.  If they feel the need to rant with out furthering their knowledge and read what I'm presenting then when I issue a posting to those individuals I feel no remorse.
> ...



Actually, I was around during the time when the original Jesus Freak movement was started and no, the term is not offensive to me. Rather, the notion that our "brain creates God" is the questionable part. If this were indeed true, our mental "creation" would NOT be God. As creator, we each would be "god". In as much as no individual meets the generally accepted definition of _god_, the premise is laughably ridiculous. One does not have to do any difficult reasoning to see the impossibility of it being true.

But, it does have merit, if only in that it causes us to think.

Peace.


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## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

PWalls said:


> God created science. We have gained a lot of knowledge and understanding of our world around us through that science. However, people are twisting science into becoming its own god. When science disagrees with Scripture, the science is plain wrong. Science is never meant to be a replacement for faith in God. Between the two, faith is the stronger and more reliable.



according to the bible the earth is roughly 6500 years old.
do you believe this is true?

Also according to the bible the sun orbits the earth.
do you believe this as well?


These all conflict with scripture so they must be false.


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## Banjo (Feb 6, 2009)

So...basically you have set yourself up as your own God.  YOU are making  yourself the determiner of what God should or should not do...establishing you as His equal...or perhaps even superior???

That is a quite a precarious position....


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

gtparts said:


> Actually, I was around during the time when the original Jesus Freak movement was started and no, the term is not offensive to me. Rather, the notion that our "brain creates God" is the questionable part. If this were indeed true, our mental "creation" would NOT be God. As creator, we each would be "god". In as much as no individual meets the generally accepted definition of _god_, the premise is laughably ridiculous. One does not have to do any difficult reasoning to see the impossibility of it being true.
> 
> But, it does have merit, if only in that it causes us to think.
> 
> Peace.



I agree we are not god or god like.  God created us and our minds.  The article is only a view point not a main stay.


----------



## Big10point (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> I guess the golden rule does not apply then here?
> Because you would surely would want some one telling you that you religion was false and you were doomed.  Doesn’t matter if they walk and lived a loving life.
> 
> So if someone in the middle of the jungle never having the opportunity to read the bible or exposed to it is therefore going to the hot place?  I find it highly unlikely that God will doom this person because if this is true then there is no mercy.
> I'm sorry but I can't agree with the philosophy that one has to be saved to enter heaven.



Then you don't agree with God.  God is the one who made the rules... not me. I just try to follow them.  I don't know if the jungle man who never hears the Gospel goes to the pit or not... my job is to try and reach him with the Gospel. if i can do that... great... if not, then its in God's hands, not mine.

actually, not believing that God sends people to helll would be "philosophy"...  believing that He does send people to helll and sends people to heaven would be trusting in His Word...  He wrote a book for us to go by and all i try to do is study that book and believe it. i dont question it or doubt it...  thats my faith. it may not be for you or others but it works for me because it is what God tells me to do... i am gonna die one day and i want to go before God and say that I studied His Word and obeyed His teachings the best that i could while i was here...


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## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

Banjo said:


> So...basically you have set yourself up as your own God.  YOU are making  yourself the determiner of what God should or should not do...establishing you as His equal...or perhaps even superior???
> 
> That is a quite a precarious position....



I don't think I’m setting my self up to be God.  I'm not sure how I've even does this.  I use science to explain the world around me.  In the bible there is no mention of atoms, planes, cars, TV, etc so I have no scripture to go on.  (I'm sure someone is about to find me some though and welcome it.  But I’m 99% sure no where is the word atom mention) 

We used science to great these things.  God gave us that ability.  I'm not really sure I grasp why that is taboo.


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## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

Big10point said:


> Then you don't agree with God.  God is the one who made the rules... not me. I just try to follow them.  I don't know if the jungle man who never hears the Gospel goes to the pit or not... my job is to try and reach him with the Gospel. if i can do that... great... if not, then its in God's hands, not mine.
> 
> actually, not believing that God sends people to helll would be "philosophy"...  believing that He does send people to helll and sends people to heaven would be trusting in His Word...  He wrote a book for us to go by and all i try to do is study that book and believe it. i dont question it or doubt it...  thats my faith. it may not be for you or others but it works for me because it is what God tells me to do... i am gonna die one day and i want to go before God and say that I studied His Word and obeyed His teachings the best that i could while i was here...




never once said Helll nor Heaven didn't exsisted. 

And not knowing God "like the jungle man" is not the same as refuting God.  I never once claimed that either. 

I really did enjoy your statement in the red.  This is a typical response when there is loss of reason.


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## Double Barrel BB (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> I guess the golden rule does not apply then here?
> Because you would surely would want some one telling you that you religion was false and you were doomed. Doesn’t matter if they walk and lived a loving life.
> 
> So if someone in the middle of the jungle never having the opportunity to read the bible or exposed to it is therefore going to the hot place? I find it highly unlikely that God will doom this person because if this is true then there is no mercy.
> I'm sorry but I can't agree with the philosophy that one has to be saved to enter heaven.


 

All Salvation comes from God.... God is the one that allows us to be Saved... If God wants the jungle man to be Saved, He will provide a way for that jungle man to hear The Word....

Jesus said himself, in John 6:44;

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Also it is written in:

Matthew 7:13-14
13. Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Also:

John 14:6
6. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way , the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 

Last time I checked, None of the other religions you have mentioned in your previous posts proclaim that Jesus is the Son of God, and our Salvation...

I hope I am wrong when I assume, that you are saying there are other ways to Heaven, that do not include Jesus?

If so, then why be a Christian? Why not just be a "good person" and let happen what you believe is going to happen when you die?

I find it hard to believe that anyone that proclaims Christianity as their belief could believe there was another way to Heaven... 

Because that thought process does not jive with the Word of God.

DB BB


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## gtparts (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> I guess the golden rule does not apply then here?
> Because you would surely would want some one telling you that you religion was false and you were doomed. ? Doesn’t matter if they walk and lived a loving life.  You mean perfect?
> 
> So if someone in the middle of the jungle never having the opportunity to read the bible or exposed to it is therefore going to the hot place?  I find it highly unlikely that God will doom this person because if this is true then there is no mercy.Faulty reasoning, faulty conclusion.
> I'm sorry but I can't agree with the philosophy that one has to be saved to enter heaven.Don't be sorry. You obviously know better than God. You are contradicting what He has said in His Word.



I believe those Catholics on this forum would have some disagreement with your position. Never the less, Christianity is not a philosophy , though contained within it are definitely elements of philosophy. 

Christianity is all about a relationship with Jesus Christ. Without that, heaven is an impossibility for any individual. It is the criteria for acceptance into the presence of the living God.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father , but through me."
  - Jesus-

If that is not your position, then, you may be a religious person, but you are not a Christian.

You are being seen for the person you are. 

Ultimately, a man is what he believes.

Peace.


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## PWalls (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> I really did enjoy your statement in the red.  This is a typical response when there is loss of reason.



"Reason" can not explain all the things of God. That is what "faith" is called.


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## Double Barrel BB (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> We used science to great these things. God gave us that ability. I'm not really sure I grasp why that is taboo.


 

Science has been also used to do HORRIBLE things...

Like Abortion, the Atom Bomb, Nuclear Weapons, Evolution... The list goes on and on....

DB BB


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## rjcruiser (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> So if someone in the middle of the jungle never having the opportunity to read the bible or exposed to it is therefore going to the hot place?  I find it highly unlikely that God will doom this person because if this is true then there is no mercy.



The problem with this thought is that you are at an impass.

God is Merciful....but God is also Just.

Which is God more of?  Which is first, mercy or justice?

If God sets a standard (which He did, perfection), what does He do to those that don't meet that standard?  Does He punish them with the penalty He stated (Eternal Death)? or is He merciful and remove that penalty and give them eternal life (Heaven)?


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Feb 6, 2009)

pwalls said:


> "reason" can not explain all the things of god. That is what "faith" is called.


 

*amen!!!!!!!!!!!!*


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> All Salvation comes from God.... God is the one that allows us to be Saved... If God wants the jungle man to be Saved, He will provide a way for that jungle man to hear The Word....
> 
> Jesus said himself, in John 6:44;
> 
> ...



lol so basically the jungle man is screwed.

I believe that the door is open to all if you come across the bible or not.  I believe in Christ and I believe in God.  Are those not the qualities of a Christian?  May not be up to your standards but they are none the less.
If you have any concept of the golden rule and act upon it, then you have enacted the word of God.


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

yes faith picks up where understanding leaves off.

i agree with you a hundred 100%


----------



## Big10point (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> never once said Helll nor Heaven didn't exsisted.
> 
> And not knowing God "like the jungle man" is not the same as refuting God.  I never once claimed that either.
> 
> I really did enjoy your statement in the red.  This is a typical response when there is loss of reason.



i said that about "not agreeing with God" because it is apparent your belief system does not line up with God's Word. God never said in the Bible that He would allow people into heaven "who were good"...  good people do not go to heaven... "saved" people go to heaven. the child of God goes to heaven.. nobody gains heaven by their works, by their efforts, by their anything... God said that if a person tries to gain entry to heaven by any other means, other than Jesus... that person is like a thief and a robber... remember that those are God's words... i am just repeating them. Mother Teresa did as many or more good works than just about anyone but if she didn't put all of her faith and trust in Jesus, than she wont be in heaven...  a persons good works and righteousness comes after getting saved or being born again. Jesus told Nicodemus, "you must be born again"... if a person does good works and is not a child of God, those good works are sin...  the unsaved person that "puts his hand to the plow" is guilty of sin if he is not washed in the blood of Christ... those are God's rules... these things are "spiritual"... if we apply our carnal reason to spiritual things we'll likley miss the mark God has set for us... once we go to Him on our knees in true repentance, then God will open our eyes to spiritual matters...


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> lol so basically the jungle man is screwed.
> 
> I believe that the door is open to all if you come across the bible or not. I believe in Christ and I believe in God. Are those not the qualities of a Christian? My not be up to your standards but they are none the less.
> If you have any concept of the golden rule and act upon it, then you have enacted the word of God.


 

Nope, he is not "screwed"... his fate is left to God... If God wants him Saved, God will provide a way... hence Missionaries...

You are adding to the belief of what you think is Christian, not what the Bible says is a Christian...

Which "golden rule" are you talking about?  I have heard many, most of which come from the world...

DB BB


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> The problem with this thought is that you are at an impass.
> 
> God is Merciful....but God is also Just.
> 
> ...



There is a standard set by God which I understand.  We are human and there for imperfect.  So mercy hopefully will be given to those who have a pure heart.  God is merciful then EVERYONE has a shot even at the last second.


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Nope, he is not "screwed"... his fate is left to God... If God wants him Saved, God will provide a way... hence Missionaries...
> 
> You are adding to the belief of what you think is Christian, not what the Bible says is a Christian...
> 
> ...




The golden rule is strung across almost every known religion (including Christianity) and the key concept holds true for all.
“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”

The bible was written from by the hand of man and in some cases corrupted by man.  Some here's where the gift of intelligence comes into play and it being a gift from God I know what I believe is not malice, evil or against Him.  God speaks to us in His own way, correct?


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

Big10point said:


> i said that about "not agreeing with God" because it is apparent your belief system does not line up with God's Word. God never said in the Bible that He would allow people into heaven "who were good"...  good people do not go to heaven... "saved" people go to heaven. the child of God goes to heaven.. nobody gains heaven by their works, by their efforts, by their anything... God said that if a person tries to gain entry to heaven by any other means, other than Jesus... that person is like a thief and a robber... remember that those are God's words... i am just repeating them. Mother Teresa did as many or more good works than just about anyone but if she didn't put all of her faith and trust in Jesus, than she wont be in heaven...  a persons good works and righteousness comes after getting saved or being born again. Jesus told Nicodemus, "you must be born again"... if a person does good works and is not a child of God, those good works are sin...  the unsaved person that "puts his hand to the plow" is guilty of sin if he is not washed in the blood of Christ... those are God's rules... these things are "spiritual"... if we apply our carnal reason to spiritual things we'll likley miss the mark God has set for us... once we go to Him on our knees in true repentance, then God will open our eyes to spiritual matters...



So if a child is aborted, this child goes to where not knowing God?  the child was never saved, never knew Jesus, never nows more then the inside of his/her mother.


----------



## Big10point (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> There is a standard set by God which I understand.  We are human and there for imperfect.  So mercy hopefully will be given to those who have a pure heart.  God is merciful then EVERYONE has a shot even at the last second.



there is a standard set and that standard is the Bible. if you try to understand it using your reason, smarts, intellect, etc you wont get it right. like you said, we are imperfect so that means that we cant understand spiritual matters and God tells us that all thru the Bible.

we have to go to Him first, and repent and accept Jesus as our Savior and understand that it was the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross that crucified all of our sins to the cross with Jesus and thus by accepting Jesus, all of our sins are washed. we then follow the Bible and the teachings in the Bible to live out a life pleasing to God.

a "pure heart" is good but where does that heart come from?  God... God says that all of our hearts are wicked...

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

so you (nor i) can have a "pure heart" until after we become a child of God... a "pure heart" in the eyes of man is a wicked heart to God...

all men are cursed at birth and destined to helll unless we accept the Truth of Jesus and the Gospel. when adam and eve sinned everything was cursed even the ground...
we cannot make our hearts pure enough to please God... its impossible.

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

only Christ can save us from helll. not religion, works, fasting... nothing but His blood.


----------



## Big10point (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> So if a child is aborted, this child goes to where not knowing God?  the child was never saved, never knew Jesus, never nows more then the inside of his/her mother.



most people believe that God automtically sends all babies to heaven... that may be true. we'll find out when we get up there... my personal opinion is that God is SO sovereign that He knows which babies are His and which are not His and He can send them to the appropriate place depending on whether that person would have submitted their life to Christ or not, had they lived a normal life on earth... i may be wrong about that... but God knew who were His a billion years ago and if they get to live a long life or were aborted... He knows His children...  just my opinion.


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> There is a standard set by God which I understand.  We are human and there for imperfect.  So mercy hopefully will be given to those who have a pure heart.  God is merciful then EVERYONE has a shot even at the last second.



But who determines this pure heart?  And where in the Bible does it say we have a second chance? 

Second chances and Justice don't go together.  So, are you saying that God, who is and was and always been, is going to change and not be Just?  

The penalty of sin has to be paid somehow.

Your hope is then on your own merits...a pure heart.  How can someone stained with sin have a pure heart?  If you put all of your hope in your own merits, you'll be greatly disappointed come judgement day.


----------



## PWalls (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> yes faith picks up where understanding leaves off.
> 
> i agree with you a hundred 100%



Yes, but the problem is where we draw that line. Too many people try to keep on with "understanding" instead of applying a little "faith". That is where they get into trouble.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> The golden rule is strung across almost every known religion (including Christianity) and the key concept holds true for all.
> “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”
> 
> The bible was written from by the hand of man and in some cases corrupted by man. Some here's where the gift of intelligence comes into play and it being a gift from God I know what I believe is not malice, evil or against Him. God speaks to us in His own way, correct?


 

Nope I believe that God all speaks to us the same, our feeble, corrupt brains is what messes up the message from God.

If what you speak goes against what God says in His Bible, then you are speaking malice, evil and against Him.

If you don't believe that the bible is the Holy Word of God, then you are allowing your own corrupt thoughts to manipulate the way you see Christianity... I believe if God had chose to make a book of the Bible and you were the one that wrote it by His inspiration that you would make sure to dot every i and cross every t....

I am not saying any of this to be mean, I like many others here have a genuine concern for your soul...

DB BB


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

I do enjoy the multiple points of views you guys are providing.  A lot of them I’ve never considered or seen in that light.
The thread kinda drifted some what from the OP but it's all gravy.


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

Big10point said:


> most people believe that God automtically sends all babies to heaven... that may be true. we'll find out when we get up there... my personal opinion is that God is SO sovereign that He knows which babies are His and which are not His and He can send them to the appropriate place depending on whether that person would have submitted their life to Christ or not, had they lived a normal life on earth... i may be wrong about that... but God knew who were His a billion years ago and if they get to live a long life or were aborted... He knows His children...  just my opinion.



I'm not trying to poke holes in this so please don't take it that way I just never seen anything in the bible or scripture related thats all.  Figured anyone might have seen it you guys would have.


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

PWalls said:


> Yes, but the problem is where we draw that line. Too many people try to keep on with "understanding" instead of applying a little "faith". That is where they get into trouble.



still wondering if you have an answer for me about the earth being 6500 years or sun orbiting the earth which it clearly states in the bible these things are true.


----------



## Big10point (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> still wondering if you have an answer for me about earth being 6500 years or sun orbiting the earth.



can u provide where in the Bible the sun orbits the earth? or where the earth is 6500 years? is found in the Bible...? i think men have tried to put 2 and 2 together and came up with the 6500 years as the age of the earth according to the Bible. 

the Bible does say the earth is round but i dont recall where it says the sun circles the earth...

Isaiah 40:22 (King James Version)

 22It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> The thread kinda drifted some what from the OP but it's all gravy.



Get used to it.  Every thread in this forum drifts away from the original post.  

Maybe instead of calling this the spiritual forum, we should call it the off-topic of the op forum.


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

http://www.albatrus.org/english/theology/creation/biblical_age_earth.htm

Give me a second on the other post.  eating Subway num num


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Get used to it.  Every thread in this forum drifts away from the original post.
> 
> Maybe instead of calling this the spiritual forum, we should call it the off-topic of the op forum.



hahaha word!


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 6, 2009)

Big10point said:


> can u provide where in the Bible the sun orbits the earth?




I think that he is referencing when God held the sun still for the day when Joshua prayed to God to keep the sun and moon still.

Joshua 10:12-13

 12Then Joshua spoke to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the sons of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel,
         "O (K)sun, stand still at Gibeon,
         And O moon in the valley of Aijalon." 
    13(L)So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped,
         Until the nation avenged themselves of their enemies 
         Is it not written in (M)the book of Jashar? And (N)the sun stopped in the middle of the sky and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> http://www.albatrus.org/english/theology/creation/biblical_age_earth.htm
> 
> Give me a second on the other post.  eating Subway num num



Okay..I still say it is a chic fil a bag over your left shoulder in your avatar.

Enjoy your $5 footlong.


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Okay..I still say it is a chic fil a bag over your left shoulder in your avatar.
> 
> Enjoy your $5 footlong.



The oven roasted chicken topped with bacon and pepper jack, i dare at this moment....heavenly.



Also the sun, earth, plus Joshua is what I referring to.  It also up to interpretation.  God can do anything and yes that means stopping the sun.


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> Also the sun, earth, plus Joshua is what I referring to.  It also up to interpretation.  God can do anything and yes that means stopping the sun.




I figured...but it is a reach at best.

Let me ask you this.  To Joshua and his warriors....and everyone else who was there at the time.  Did the Sun stop in the sky?  Did the moon not move down on the horizon?

I think you can answer yes to both those questions.


----------



## jettman96 (Feb 6, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> I think that he is referencing when God held the sun still for the day when Joshua prayed to God to keep the sun and moon still.
> 
> Joshua 10:12-13
> 
> ...



I would definitely have to say that the scripture suggests that sun moves.  

Otherwise it would have said something along the lines of... The Rotation of the earth stopped....


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 6, 2009)

jettman96 said:


> I would definitely have to say that the scripture suggests that sun moves.
> 
> Otherwise it would have said something along the lines of... The Rotation of the earth stopped....





When you are driving down the road...heading west at 5 PM.  You have a hard time seeing the road because the sun is in your eyes.  Do you say, "I can't wait until the Earth rotates a little more and the horizon moves" or do you say "I can't wait for that Sun to go down."


I'm going to take a stab at it and say you say that you can't wait for the sun to go down.  If you're holding yourself to the same standard as the text above....you're a moron as well and you believe that the Sun rotates the Earth.


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> I figured...but it is a reach at best.
> 
> Let me ask you this.  To Joshua and his warriors....and everyone else who was there at the time.  *Did the Sun stop in the sky?*  Did the moon not move down on the horizon?
> 
> I think you can answer yes to both those questions.



I'm not being hard headed but I'm not sure what you are asking.  Did it happen?  The sun stopping in the sky?  I find it hard to believe the sun stopped moving and the moon continued unless a solar eclipse happened at the same time giving the appearance the moon rose and fell but the sun appeared not to move at all.


----------



## PWalls (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> still wondering if you have an answer for me about the earth being 6500 years or sun orbiting the earth which it clearly states in the bible these things are true.



I believe that the Earth is only about 6000 years old or so. I do not believe in evolution.

Where is the passage about the sun/earth please for reference. I have not ever considered or studied it.


----------



## PWalls (Feb 6, 2009)

PWalls said:


> I believe that the Earth is only about 6000 years old or so. I do not believe in evolution.
> 
> Where is the passage about the sun/earth please for reference. I have not ever considered or studied it.



Never mind. RJ answered it.


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> I'm not being hard headed but I'm not sure what you are asking.  Did it happen?  The sun stopping in the sky?  I find it hard to believe the sun stopped moving and the moon continued unless a solar eclipse happened at the same time giving the appearance the moon rose and fell but the sun appeared not to move at all.



I'm asking you this.  If the Earth stops rotation and the moon stops its rotation. (lets just say this happened today for 24 hours)

When you look up in the sky and you see the sun and the moon.  Is it moving or is it standing still?

Also, see my response to your co-worker above and the example I use.


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> When you are driving down the road...heading west at 5 PM.  You have a hard time seeing the road because the sun is in your eyes.  Do you say, "I can't wait until the Earth rotates a little more and the horizon moves" or do you say "I can't wait for that Sun to go down."
> 
> 
> I'm going to take a stab at it and say you say that you can't wait for the sun to go down.  If you're holding yourself to the same standard as the text above....you're a moron as well and you believe that the Sun rotates the Earth.



I think jettman is suggesting the line of scripture leads one to believe the sun "stopped" meaning it is always in motion. 
God stopped the sun for Joshua....
that's my take on the scripture


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Feb 6, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> If so, then why be a Christian? Why not just be a "good person" and let happen what you believe is going to happen when you die?
> 
> DB BB


 

Still waiting for a response to this question, Rage?

DB BB


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> I think jettman is suggesting the line of scripture leads one to believe the sun "stopped" meaning it is always in motion.
> God stopped the sun for Joshua....
> that's my take on the scripture



And I agree with scripture.  The sun did stop....in the sky...don't try and read into more than what is there.

Again, if the Bible was a science book and everything that God did had a scientific explanation behind it, how thick would it be?

In the NT, when it talks about it getting dark when Christ was crucified, does that mean it was clouds? does it mean there was a solar eclipse?  does it mean something else?

Who cares.....it got dark for the people that were there.


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

PWalls said:


> I believe that the Earth is only about 6000 years old or so. I do not believe in evolution.
> 
> Where is the passage about the sun/earth please for reference. I have not ever considered or studied it.



You sir have my speechless.


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> I think jettman is suggesting the line of scripture leads one to believe the sun "stopped" meaning it is always in motion.
> God stopped the sun for Joshua....
> that's my take on the scripture



Oh...and one more thing to add....next time Jettman says, I can't wait for the sun to go down...tell him he's a scientific moron....that everyone knows that the sun doesn't move.


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> And I agree with scripture.  The sun did stop....in the sky...don't try and read into more than what is there.
> 
> Again, if the Bible was a science book and everything that God did had a scientific explanation behind it, how thick would it be?
> 
> ...




I states the sun stopped, hence it was moving.
But! I understand your point of view tho really.  I'm not poking the issue over and over.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> You sir have my speechless.


 

How about this:

Could God have created a "Mature" earth?  One with stuff "fossils" in it to test the faith of those that would call themselves followers of Christ, but really only followers of their own Logic?

DB BB


----------



## gtparts (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> I think jettman is suggesting the line of scripture leads one to believe the sun "stopped" meaning it is always in motion.
> God stopped the sun for Joshua....
> that's my take on the scripture



He also stopped the Earth's rotation until the men of Israel vanquished all of the Amorites who stood against them. 

Or, He could have put the Earth into synchronus rotation so as to allow the sun to shine on that portion of the world for 24 continuous hours and then returning it to the previous rate of spin. 

Whatever the methodology God used, you have to admit that science lacks the power to duplicate that feat.

What a mighty God we serve!


----------



## jettman96 (Feb 6, 2009)

RJ Thanks for setting me straight... I will be sure to correct my grammar in the future so as not to be MORON.  

I read the scripture to say that the Sun STOPPED.  Meaning that the Sun is in motion, which would be false.  Proven by science and very hard to dispute.  But, go ahead take it on faith.  

Really the questions that should have been asked prior to this whole conversation are:

1.  Is the bible meant to be taken literally or interpreted as seen fit?

2.  Is God/Bible fallible?


----------



## PWalls (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> You sir have my speechless.



Really? You have never heard of Creationism? Young-Earth? None of that? Literal translation of the Word. God created it in 6 literal days. Add the geneology up from Adam and you come up with 6000+ years. This is not new and is/was the commonly held belief for most of those 6000+ years until Darwin and others tried to interject their religion called evolution onto mainstream Christianity.


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Still waiting for a response to this question, Rage?
> 
> DB BB





Rage_On said:


> lol so basically the jungle man is screwed.
> 
> I believe that the door is open to all if you come across the bible or not.  I believe in Christ and I believe in God.  Are those not the qualities of a Christian?  May not be up to your standards but they are none the less.
> If you have any concept of the golden rule and act upon it, then you have enacted the word of God.



My answer is yes I’m a Christian.




Double Barrel BB said:


> How about this:
> 
> Could God have created a "Mature" earth?  One with stuff "fossils" in it to test the faith of those that would call themselves followers of Christ, but really only followers of their own Logic?
> 
> DB BB



Who are we to believe are assume seven days to God is 24hrs for us.  I take you believe dinosaurs are a lie?


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 6, 2009)

jettman96 said:


> RJ Thanks for setting me straight... I will be sure to correct my grammar in the future so as not to be MORON.
> 
> I read the scripture to say that the Sun STOPPED.  Meaning that the Sun is in motion, which would be false.  Proven by science and very hard to dispute.  But, go ahead take it on faith.
> 
> ...



Jettman, I'm not calling you a moron...just trying to prove the point.  Using common vernacular, we say many scientific errors throughout the day...if you want to interpret it that way.

I understand what your position is...and I know why you are taking it.  You are trying to prove your point.  You are letting your desired result determine your interpretation.  You believe that the Bible is fallible.  So, you've gotta stretch interpretation to find your so-called errors.

But...to answer your two questions.

1.  Literal...but you must let context be your guide.  There are many passages that use figurative language...like the psalms or even Song of Solomon.

2.  Infallible.


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

basically you all have proven the article.  When you can't explain something, even if there is no record in the bible (no fossil records), then you fall with the "God" come back.
This is perfectly fine.  I said God picks up where science leaves off.
God gave us our brains and feel well.  Free will would be discovery.
And what we don't understand, He is there to provide you answers.


----------



## jettman96 (Feb 6, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Oh...and one more thing to add....next time Jettman says, I can't wait for the sun to go down...tell him he's a scientific moron....that everyone knows that the sun doesn't move.




At least I know where I stand on the subject.  I still can't figure out whether you agree or disagree with the subject at hand...  Are you agruing that the Sun stood still?  Are you arguing that the earth stood still?  Are you arguing that it was a miracle in itself that only God can explain?  

You my friend need to figure out what kind of moron you are.

I personally, am one of those people that try to live a virtuous life and praise God for the gifts in my life, but, I couldn't tell you the last time I went to Church.


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

PWalls said:


> Really? You have never heard of Creationism? Young-Earth? None of that? Literal translation of the Word. God created it in 6 literal days. Add the geneology up from Adam and you come up with 6000+ years. This is not new and is/was the commonly held belief for most of those 6000+ years until Darwin and others tried to interject their religion called evolution onto mainstream Christianity.



No sir you said "Earth" not "young Earth".  

You are right scientist made up carbon dating.  It's all a lie.
Carbon dating is based upon math.  Math is not real.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> My answer is yes I’m a Christian.
> 
> 
> Who are we to believe are assume seven days to God is 24hrs for us. I take you believe dinosaurs are a lie?


 
I didn't ask if you were a Christian... I asked you:


> If so, then why be a Christian? Why not just be a "good person" and let happen what you believe is going to happen when you die?


 
Could be because the hebrew word used for a specific day(24 hour period) is the word that is used in Genesis... yom (hebrew)

No actually I do believe in dinos... I believe they were and could possibly be around today...

It wasn't long ago... we were told by scientist that there was a brontosorus.... no it turns out that brontosorus' never exsisted... Instead it is a Brachiosaurus... Just one example of Science making mistakes and passing them off as facts...

DB BB


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> No sir you said "Earth" not "young Earth".
> 
> You are right scientist made up carbon dating. It's all a lie.
> Carbon dating is based upon math. Math is not real.


 

yes but Carbon dating also doesn't take into account the changes in the earth's Magnetic field... which actually effect Carbon dating...

DB BB


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Feb 6, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Get used to it.  Every thread in this forum drifts away from the original post.
> 
> Maybe instead of calling this the spiritual forum, we should call it the off-topic of the op forum.


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> I didn't ask if you were a Christian... I asked you:
> 
> Could be because the hebrew word used for a specific day(24 hour period) is the word that is used in Genesis... yom (hebrew)
> 
> ...



I'm a good person, I hope.  
I believe in many 95%+ teaching of the Christian belief.  I'm just curious about the world around me.  A desire does not make me un-christian.


----------



## PWalls (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> No sir you said "Earth" not "young Earth".
> 
> You are right scientist made up carbon dating.  It's all a lie.
> Carbon dating is based upon math.  Math is not real.



Young-Earth is the "name" that some have given the Creationism belief. The Earth is 6000+ years old. Not sure what you are getting at.

And, no need to get defensive. There is plenty of "holes" in carbon dating and all of that. We have debated this "theory" of evolution and such many, many times on here. A search would yield many pages of threads.

By the way, I love math. It is awesome.


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> Who are we to believe are assume seven days to God is 24hrs for us.  I take you believe dinosaurs are a lie?



Because it says so in Genesis.  Boy..this thread is digressing big time.  We've had the evolution thread and we've had the dinosaur thread and we've had the infallibility thread.

I believe in a young earth and I also believe in Dinosaurs.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> I'm a good person, I hope.
> I believe in many 95%+ teaching of the Christian belief. I'm just curious about the world around me. A desire does not make me un-christian.


 

Believe me, you can question/be curious of the world around you without giving up your belief in God and in Jesus Christ... But that doesn't mean you or anyone has any right to add to the Word of God... esspecially when it comes to the core belief that Jesus is the only way to Heaven... not budda, not mohommad, etc..

I don't mean this to sound mean, I know it is hard to know how stuff is meant when you are reading it instead of hearing it comes from someones mouth...


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> yes but Carbon dating also doesn't take into account the changes in the earth's Magnetic field... which actually effect Carbon dating...
> 
> DB BB



Measurements are traditionally made by counting the radioactive decay of individual carbon atoms by gas proportional counting or by liquid scintillation counting. For samples of sufficient size (several grams of carbon) this method is still widely used in the 2000s. Among others, all the tree ring samples used for the calibration curves were determined by these counting techniques. Such decay counting, however, is relatively insensitive and subject to large statistical uncertainties for small samples. When there is little carbon-14 to begin with, the long radiocarbon half-life means that very few of the carbon-14 atoms will decay during the time allotted for their detection, resulting in few disintegrations per minute.

I can not find anything that suggest magnetic fields restrict the break down of carbon atoms.

please provide link if you have one for your source.


----------



## jettman96 (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> basically you all have proven the article.  When you can't explain something, even if there is no record in the bible (no fossil records), then you fall with the "God" come back.
> This is perfectly fine.  I said God picks up where science leaves off.
> God gave us our brains and feel well.  Free will would be discovery.
> And what we don't understand, He is there to provide you answers.



X2 

The article is saying that We as humans fall back on Supernatural explanations to explain the unexplained or unexplanable.  That really was the core of the article..

Honest answers:  who has actually read the article?

I did.


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 6, 2009)

jettman96 said:


> At least I know where I stand on the subject.  I still can't figure out whether you agree or disagree with the subject at hand...  Are you agruing that the Sun stood still?  Are you arguing that the earth stood still?  Are you arguing that it was a miracle in itself that only God can explain?
> 
> You my friend need to figure out what kind of moron you are.
> 
> I personally, am one of those people that try to live a virtuous life and praise God for the gifts in my life, but, I couldn't tell you the last time I went to Church.




Okay. Thanks for the compliment

Like I stated above, to those on the earth looking in the sky, the sun stood still in the sky...in relation to them.

So....to make that happen, I believe that God stopped the rotation of the earth...the rotation of the moon.  Somehow, He kept gravity in its place and the whole universe didn't come apart.

Does that make sense?


And about living a virtuous life and going to church....neither of those will get you to Heaven.


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Believe me, you can question/be curious of the world around you without giving up your belief in God and in Jesus Christ... But that doesn't mean you or anyone has any right to add to the Word of God... esspecially when it comes to the core belief that Jesus is the only way to Heaven... not budda, not mohommad, etc..
> 
> I don't mean this to sound mean, I know it is hard to know how stuff is menat when you are reading it instead of hearing it comes from someones mouth...



I promise you I've been exposed to this my whole adult life and this only reaffirms my beliefs.  No ill feelings, promise.


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

jettman96 said:


> X2
> 
> The article is saying that We as humans fall back on Supernatural explanations to explain the unexplained or unexplanable.  That really was the core of the article..
> 
> ...




I didn't I just posted it for giggles.  




I'm joking of course


----------



## jettman96 (Feb 6, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> And about living a virtuous life and going to church....neither of those will get you to Heaven.




I'll take my chances.


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

PWalls said:


> Young-Earth is the "name" that some have given the Creationism belief. The Earth is 6000+ years old. Not sure what you are getting at.
> 
> And, no need to get defensive. There is plenty of "holes" in carbon dating and all of that. We have debated this "theory" of evolution and such many, many times on here. A search would yield many pages of threads.
> 
> By the way, I love math. It is awesome.



Sure...ok man. lol  I asked you straight up how old you thought the earth was and you said 6500 years.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> Measurements are traditionally made by counting the radioactive decay of individual carbon atoms by gas proportional counting or by liquid scintillation counting. For samples of sufficient size (several grams of carbon) this method is still widely used in the 2000s. Among others, all the tree ring samples used for the calibration curves (see below) were determined by these counting techniques. Such decay counting, however, is relatively insensitive and subject to large statistical uncertainties for small samples. When there is little carbon-14 to begin with, the long radiocarbon half-life means that very few of the carbon-14 atoms will decay during the time allotted for their detection, resulting in few disintegrations per minute.
> 
> I can not find anything that suggest magnetic fields restrict the break down of carbon atoms.
> 
> please provide link if you have one for your source.


 
Where did you get your info? Link?

Mine is below, and it has much more information about C14 dating than just what I pasted here.... this particular part of the article is just a little over halfway down the page that I linked it from...

*Magnetic Field of the Earth*
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/does-c14-disprove-the-bible

Other factors can affect the production rate of <SUP>14</SUP>C in the atmosphere. The earth has a magnetic field around it which helps protect us from harmful radiation from outer space. This magnetic field is decaying (getting weaker). The stronger the field is around the earth, the fewer the number of cosmic rays that are able to reach the atmosphere. This would result in a smaller production of <SUP>14</SUP>C in the atmosphere in earth’s past.
The cause for the long term variation of the C-14 level is not known. The variation is certainly partially the result of a change in the cosmic ray production rate of radiocarbon. The cosmic-ray flux, and hence the production rate of C-14, is a function not only of the solar activity but also of the magnetic dipole moment of the Earth.<SUP>4</SUP>​Though complex, this history of the earth’s magnetic field agrees with Barnes’ basic hypothesis, that the field has always freely decayed.... The field has always been losing energy despite its variations, so it cannot be more than 10,000 years old.<SUP>5</SUP>​Earth’s magnetic field is fading. Today it is about 10 percent weaker than it was when German mathematician Carl Friedrich Gauss started keeping tabs on it in 1845, scientists say.<SUP>6</SUP>​If the production rate of <SUP>14</SUP>C in the atmosphere was less in the past, dates given using the carbon-14 method would incorrectly assume that more <SUP>14</SUP>C had decayed out of a specimen than what has actually occurred. This would result in giving older dates than the true age.


----------



## gtparts (Feb 6, 2009)

Actually, the sun is moving, although God may have stopped the entire universe to accomplish the 24 hours of sunlight for Joshua and Company.

Our solar system is but a speck in one arm of one spiral galaxy (similar to M109, pictured) in the entire universe of billions of galaxies. 

It is all moving!

You would not believe how fast we are screaming through space. 

Cosmic accident??? Don't kid yourself. Science doesn't begin to explain all that is.....never will. 

Our appallingly infinitesimal pool of knowledge is nothing as compared to what is knowable. We have no reason to be puffed up about our accumulated "knowledge".

What was it that Harry Callahan used to say?

"A man has got to know his limitations."

Peace.


----------



## PWalls (Feb 6, 2009)

jettman96 said:


> I'll take my chances.



If you haven't given your life to Jesus and trust in Him for your salvation, then your chances are "nil".

"I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but through Me."

"All have fallen short of the glory of God."

"For the wages of sin is death. But, the free gift of God is eternal life through His son Jesus."

"For by grace you have been saved and that not of yourself lest any man should boast."

I think I may have paraphrased from memory on a couple of those. Sorry about that if I didn't get it all the way right.


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 6, 2009)

jettman96 said:


> I'll take my chances.



Well...based on the Word of God, you've got a 0% chance.

I pray you'll reconsider those odds.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Feb 6, 2009)

jettman96 said:


> I'll take my chances.


 

That is one heck of a wager... Your eternal soul...

DB BB


----------



## PWalls (Feb 6, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> Sure...ok man. lol  I asked you straight up how old you thought the earth was and you said 6500 years.



6000+, 6500, 6475, 6237....What does that matter that I can not recite the actual age off the top of my head? Point is I believe in literal 6 day and creation.

Point is that I do not believe in the "millions" or "billions" of years old religion of evolution.


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Where did you get your info? Link?
> 
> Mine is below, and it has much more information about C14 dating than just what I pasted here.... this particular part of the article is just a little over halfway down the page that I linked it from...
> 
> ...



I have the full blown version at home but you can apply for the free trail to get the whole article.

http://student.britannica.com/comptons/article-9276638/radiocarbon-dating

also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O14-radiocarbondating.html

very good link and you used science....even if it's a biasis website.  not saying the facts aren't true.
I love how they said carbon dating is true then say it's not true only after a certain date.  The have no evidence to show they know what the earths atmosphere was like.
_A critical assumption used in carbon-14 dating has to do with this ratio. It is assumed that the ratio of 14C to 12C in the atmosphere has always been the same as it is today (1 to 1 trillion). If this assumption is true, then the AMS 14C dating method is valid up to about 80,000 years. Beyond this number, the instruments scientists use would not be able to detect enough remaining 14C to be useful in age estimates. _


----------



## jettman96 (Feb 6, 2009)

That's funny no one else has answered the question on whether or not they actually read the Article.


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 6, 2009)

jettman96 said:


> That's funny no one else has answered the question on whether or not they actually read the Article.



Maybe because it is expected that if you are going to post on a thread, you'll do the op the courtesy of reading what was posted.

In other words....I read it.


----------



## jettman96 (Feb 6, 2009)

Oh and thank you all for your concern.


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 6, 2009)

jettman96 said:


> Oh and thank you all for your concern.



Your welcome....and please don't take it lightly.  Everyone on this thread cares deeply about your eternal destiny.

If you knew someone was going to die in a car wreck, wouldn't you warn them?


----------



## jettman96 (Feb 6, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Maybe because it is expected that if you are going to post on a thread, you'll do the op the courtesy of reading what was posted.
> 
> In other words....I read it.



Sorry, I don't make a habit of assuming, you know what they say about it, you make a donkey out of u and me (editted for the moderator)...   and based on alot of the posts, some of the people have not read the article.  Which is why I asked the question.


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

with out a don't the information is interesting and I pass it on to friends who enjoy trying to debunk my ways of thinking.  they will appreciate the ammo.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Feb 6, 2009)

jettman96 said:


> That's funny no one else has answered the question on whether or not they actually read the Article.


 

I actually read it...

When it came to the end and was quoting Dawkins... is where it lost a ton of credibility...

DB BB


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Feb 6, 2009)

jettman96 said:


> Sorry, I don't make a habit of assuming, you know what they say about it... and based on alot of the posts, some of the people have not read the article. Which is why I asked the question.


 

Actually the conversion on here... for lack of a better word.. Evolved into multiple conversations... could explain why there was not a lot of posting on the article..

Don't my christian brothers and sisters... I know I used a bad word.... Evolve... 

DB BB


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

PWalls said:


> If you haven't given your life to Jesus and trust in Him for your salvation, then your chances are "nil".
> 
> "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but through Me."
> 
> ...



Jettmann you are going to Helll!
I'm just going to say a few extra Hail Marys, toss in an Our Father and do the double dip (just my finger not whole self) in the holy water Sunday.


guys I'm just messing with you.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Feb 6, 2009)

Well ya'll have fun!!  and a great Weekend!!  I am outta here...

DB BB


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

PWalls said:


> 6000+, 6500, 6475, 6237....What does that matter that I can not recite the actual age off the top of my head? Point is I believe in literal 6 day and creation.
> 
> Point is that I do not believe in the "millions" or "billions" of years old religion of evolution.



Bud I'm not splitting hairs on 2000 years....heck I would have give you and extra 10k.  You still stated the earth was roughly 6500 years.


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Well ya'll have fun!!  and a great Weekend!!  I am outta here...
> 
> DB BB



Peace!  And I hate you basically because you are off at 1:30pm


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 6, 2009)

jettman96 said:


> Sorry, I don't make a habit of assuming, you know what they say about it, you make a donkey out of u and me (editted for the moderator)...   and based on alot of the posts, some of the people have not read the article.  Which is why I asked the question.



you had  (donkey) in there earlier did you not.  hahaha you had the MOD rain down on you BOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAA


----------



## jawja_peach (Feb 6, 2009)

*Hu? Do what??*



Rage_On said:


> I guess the golden rule does not apply then here?
> Because you would surely would want some one telling you that you religion was false and you were doomed.  Doesn’t matter if they walk and lived a loving life.
> 
> So if someone in the middle of the jungle never having the opportunity to read the bible or exposed to it is therefore going to the hot place?  I find it highly unlikely that God will doom this person because if this is true then there is no mercy.
> I'm sorry but I can't agree with the philosophy that one has to be saved to enter heaven.



 
So, you do not believe in Salvation? Then you don't believe the Bible, God's Holy Word, nor do you believe in Christ and His role in our lives making us Christians? I haven't read all the replies and maybe someone has already addressed this. I don't see how in the world you say you are even Catholic if you do not believe in the things above. You sound like a person that is an unbeliever, but doesn't want to go through the 'bashing' some unbelievers go through. 

 Some people aren't as nice as I am...LOL...Oh, I dread to read what my hubby 
has to say...lol... 
He's not liked all that much on here by many...lol...but a few...LOL...

Have you read John 3:3 ?? This is actually my favorite verse in the Bible. 

John 3:3-7

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
KJV

OK, just in case you don't know...Um, in verse 3, Jesus is telling Nicodemus that the only way that he, Nicodemus, could see the kingdom of God (salvation) is to be 'BORN AGAIN...' SALVATION.

Then in 4, Nic asks our Lord how? As he was speaking and seeing literal/carnal, not SPIRITUAL!! So in verse 5 our Lord Jesus tells Nic that he must be born of water and the Spirit, which is the our birth from our mother...the water birth, and the birth of the Spirit which is when you are Saved, Salvation. The second birth. (6)That which is flesh is flesh....talking about the Flesh, the 'Man' that which is not Spiritual but Carnal. Being born by your earthly mother-- Adam sin. Spiritual is your relationship with Christ, once you are Saved and bought by the Blood that He shed on the cross. Which is to be born again, the only way to see the Kingdom of God. We can not do it any other way. If we could do it any other way, Christ wouldn't have told Nic this. Nor can we get in by works. If we could get in by works, we would still be living under the law. But we couldn't and that's when God sent His son to Save that which was lost. Works aren't enough, it takes the blood.

I can't believe that you would say that you are a believer at all....?? Like I said, I hope I haven't repeated what has been said. I honestly couldn't go back and read all that has been wrote. 

Oh, and as far as the jungle and those in there...?? The Bible says before the Lord comes back to receive His own, His word will have reached everyone...from corner to corner...in some way, shape or form. And it is being preached in so many places now...places you don't even know about. Somethings Science can not explain. I have heard tapes of a man that was a devout Atheist and a Scientist. He was so much an Atheist that he took it upon himself to PROVE that what Darwin had said was WORD...lol..but you know what?? The more he studied and tried to prove the more he ended up coming up short. Things just didn't work, and the more he tried to bring it all together, the more it unraveled. He then started to read the Bible and to sought to disprove the Bible, in which he could not. He is actually a SAVED CHRISTIAN that goes around the world with the Darwin belief and shows all the lies and things that don't fit. I can not remember his name, but I will try my best to get it for you and anyone else that wants to know.

I pray that my words are not taken the wrong way. And others will probably not see the scripture the way I do. But this is the way I believe those scripture are meant to be interpreted. Hope it at least made some since.

Peach~


----------



## gordon 2 (Feb 6, 2009)

I have held the submarine to the clam bed, and read  all of post #1. article from the bottom up, as well as all the fleet's posts:

1.) People go to chruch more often in hard times because they are idle. ( Usually unemployed.) In the 30's it meant, freedom from 12 hr days, six days a week at the boss' bobin.

2.) The article is correct for the most part, our brains do fabricate Gods and give events and objects the stamp of the devine. However, these Gods, or this God, is childlike, akin to a doll to a child that will one day be a parent.

3.) Most people do no progress in their spiritual development past the child state. And for this reason the posts in reply to consideration for the article are shooting from turrets with no powder in the gun casings and therefore way off the mark.

4.) Jawja_peach quoted some of  1 Cor, at some point in the mele if I recollect.  The God of this scripture is not the God that y'all are firein you guns from. That God is turned and twisted to make the hull of your own ships, like a kid floats a board and a hankerchef down a ditch.

5.) The God that is explained in 1 Cor. is the God of the that born again, that a lot of self-named "christians" and "saved" will die not knowing. The God of 1 Cor. is the God of those that have moved from childhood things..to the living God and adult spiritual life. The article ( first post) does not address this god, except glancingly.

6.) What was the gravitational force during the days of the giant dynasaurs? Is gravitational force, always constant? The reason I'm asking is that from an anotomical point of view, some of these long necked dynasaurs must of had a heard time with flies, not to mention the up and down tendon movement of the neck-head -shoulder. Now if gravitational force was reduced a bit, they could of pranced like an arabian horse.

7.) To say that Jesus is not known outside of the spiritual tradition I know, because that is not what  my scripture says, indicates to me a limit to my understanding of what God is capable. I mean the God of 1 Cor. Not the god of fable.

8.)Jawja-Peach, this is it as you quoted : "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

My questions to all is, Which Spirit is it? and Can you live by it? My point is that the article does not address  it, nor how we are hardwired to it. Did our brain create this Spirit or does it have a life of its own?


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 9, 2009)

^ Nice Gordon.  Not for the fact you reinforced a few of my few points but that you were not afraid to post them.

I found a few things interesting but didn't realize it till Sunday.  While I was reading peoples post I noticed something that bothered me about them but could put my finger on it at first.  Some people are quoting from the Old Testament and New.  
The Old Testament clearly states that the Jews *were God's chosen people not Christians*, also because the Old Testament is clearly written only for Jews, not Christians.  I’m not saying this takes away any teaching that it provides I just found the irony in it.  
Oh also….I believe the earliest forms of the bible were written by Catholics, being they (we) where the first organized religion to follow Christ.

http://lexicorient.com/e.o/old_test.htm 

I just found it interesting I'm being scripture stoned by Christians using Jews teachings.


----------



## celticfisherman (Feb 9, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> ^ Nice Gordon.  Not for the fact you reinforced a few of my few points but that you were not afraid to post them.
> 
> I find a few things interesting.  I've caught a few quotes of this thread and something bothered me about them.  Some people are quoting from the Old Testament and New.
> The Old Testament also tells that the Jews *were God's chosen people not Christians*, also because the Old Testament is clearly written only for Jews, not Christians.  I’m not saying this takes away any teaching that it provides I just found the irony in it.
> ...



No offense bubba. But that statement couldn't be farther from the Truth. Jesus taught from the "OT" but we shouldn't? Nothing is in the OT that is not revealed in the New and nothing is in the New that is not foretold of in the OT.


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 9, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> No offense bubba. But that statement couldn't be farther from the Truth. Jesus taught from the "OT" but we shouldn't? Nothing is in the OT that is not revealed in the New and nothing is in the New that is not foretold of in the OT.



Nope not saying that.  I said nothing takes away from the OT.  Excellent teaching.  
I just prefer to be hit with NT stones.  

I just kicked the door wide open now for some scripture. hahaha


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 9, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> Nope not saying that.  I said nothing takes away from the OT.  Excellent teaching.
> I just prefer to be hit with NT stones.



Why?

DixieDawg is going to  you if she sees that one

Isn't the OT and the NT what make up the Bible?  Aren't they equally important?  How can you say one is more important than the other?


----------



## celticfisherman (Feb 9, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Why?
> 
> DixieDawg is going to  you if she sees that one
> 
> Isn't the OT and the NT what make up the Bible?  Aren't they equally important?  How can you say one is more important than the other?



Good one RJ


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 9, 2009)

Rage_On said:
			
		

> Oh also….I believe the earliest forms of the bible were written by Catholics, being they (we) where the first organized religion to follow Christ.
> 
> http://lexicorient.com/e.o/old_test.htm
> 
> I just found it interesting I'm being scripture stoned by Christians using Jews teachings.






Not this again.  catholic with a lower case "c" not upper case "C"

I think that the first organized religion to follow Christ would have been the Christians.  Many were burned on poles in Nero's gardens during the late first century.


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 9, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Why?
> 
> DixieDawg is going to  you if she sees that one
> 
> Isn't the OT and the NT what make up the Bible?  Aren't they equally important?  How can you say one is more important than the other?



Wow....ok, so I stated that nothing takes away from either.  The teachings serve their purpose.  We can all learn from them.  I'm just saying that CHRISTIANS are quoting JEWISH scripture which the OT is and that can not be argued. 
OT was by Jews, quoted by Jesus, a Jew, you all are not Jewish (there might be but I'm directing this at the Christians).

DixiDawg's  does not scared me.  cough



rjcruiser said:


> Not this again.  catholic with a lower case "c" not upper case "C"
> 
> I think that the first organized religion to follow Christ would have been the Christians.  Many were burned on poles in Nero's gardens during the late first century.



And Catholic with is an upper case “C” is correct just as people cap Baptist, Jewish, Athesit and Christians for example.  So don't  unless you want a concussion.
You are correct that many of the early Christians where burned at the stake, fed to loins, etc.  I said organized religion.


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 9, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> Wow....ok, so I stated that nothing takes away from either.  The teachings serve their purpose.  We can all learn from them.  I'm just saying that CHRISTIANS are quoting JEWISH scripture which the OT is and that can not be argued.
> OT was by Jews, quoted by Jesus, a Jew, you all are not Jewish (there might be but I'm directing this at the Christians).



I don't understand.  You say that both serve a purpose...but then you say that since I'm not Jewish, I can't use it?  The OT was written first for the Jews...but also for the Gentile Christian as well.  Jesus taught that it was our guide as well.

Without the OT, the NT is worthless.  Why did Jesus Christ come and die on the cross?  Why was his resurrection necessary?  

These questions could not be answered if it wasn't for the OT.  

Maybe I'm not understanding your position, but I think I am.  I think that this is one of the biggest dis-services that the modern church has done.  There are many "Pastors" that are not trained nor schooled in the original texts.  They go to a Bible College, take a semester of greek and then go and preach nothing but the NT.

Why isn't as much stress put on the OT...why isn't as much study put into the Hebrew text?  It is the foundation...the beginning of the story...without it the Salvation message is incomplete.

small disclaimer:  I in no way am meaning that people who don't have a seminary degree or a mdiv or thm or thd can't be pastor's.  You don't have to have a degree to know greek or hebrew--the original texts.



			
				Rage_On said:
			
		

> And Catholic with is an upper case “C” is correct just as people cap Baptist, Jewish, Athesit and Christians for example.  So don't  unless you want a concussion.
> You are correct that many of the early Christians where burned at the stake, fed to loins, etc.  I said organized religion.



I guess I've got a concussion  How were the early churches not considered organized religion?  Was not the Corinthian Church, the Church at Ephasus, Phillipi and other churches that Paul and the apostles started sister churches?  Were they not organized?  And don't tell me that they were Roman Catholic churches.


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 9, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> I don't understand.  You say that both serve a purpose...but then you say that since I'm not Jewish, I can't use it?  The OT was written first for the Jews...but also for the Gentile Christian as well.  Jesus taught that it was our guide as well.
> 
> Without the OT, the NT is worthless.  Why did Jesus Christ come and die on the cross?  Why was his resurrection necessary?
> 
> ...



No, I'm saying that Christians are quoting Jewish text and I just find the irony in that.  Yes I know Jesus used the OT.  Jesus was born to a Jewish mother, hence him being Jews.  Can you have the NT with out the OT?  I’m not a 100% sure if all the stories would make sense but I believe a lot of the same messages and teaching of the NT can cover the OT.  

I stated that the Catholic Church was one of the first organized religions and if I led anyone to believe it was the  #1 and none of the others counted... please let me state that for the record at this time that the CC was one of the first.  Please don't add anything between the lines.  I did imply that that the Catholic Church had a large part in the creation of the NT sections of the bible and getting the word of God out to the world population.  
Also the bible has several different forms all tailored to many different types of Christian sects.  
Would you not agree?


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 9, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> No, I'm saying that Christians are quoting Jewish text and I just find the irony in that.  Yes I know Jesus used the OT.  Jesus was born to a Jewish mother, hence him being Jews.  Can you have the NT with out the OT?  I’m not a 100% sure if all the stories would make sense but I believe a lot of the same messages and teaching of the NT can cover the OT.


If you don't have the OT, why was there a need for a Savior?

Oh...that's right, based on your postings above, you don't think that Jesus Christ was necessary for eternal life.  You believe that as long as your better than most and live a good life, you'll be able to reach eternity.  Ok....I realize that this is a mute debate.



			
				Rage_On said:
			
		

> I stated that the catholic Church was one of the first organized religions and if I led anyone to believe it was the  #1 and none of the others counted... please let me state that for the record at this time that the cC was one of the first.  Please don't add anything between the lines.  I did imply that that the catholic Church had a large part in the creation of the NT sections of the bible and getting the word of God out to the world population.
> Also the bible has several different forms all tailored to many different types of Christian sects.
> Would you not agree?



I fixed your c's for you.  Yup...I agree with the catholic (universal) church going about with the great commission and spreading the gosple like Christ commanded in Matt 28.

Nope...I don't believe that the Bible has several different forms.  Other cults and religious (so-called "Christian) sects all utilize the Bible and then add additional books and writings and traditions to it to fulfill their purpose/agenda (ie the book of mormon, the quran, the watchtower society etc etc)


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## Dixie Dawg (Feb 9, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Why?
> 
> DixieDawg is going to  you if she sees that one



  

Oddly enough, I actually agree with him...


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## Rage_On (Feb 9, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> If you don't have the OT, why was there a need for a Savior?
> 
> Oh...that's right, based on your postings above, you don't think that Jesus Christ was necessary for eternal life.  You believe that as long as your better than most and live a good life, you'll be able to reach eternity.  Ok....I realize that this is a mute debate.
> 
> ...



Seen in doing this you are quickly losing credit with me.  From here on out please refer to "c"hristians with a lower case c.  
Now see how stupid that looks you go that route?  You are simply doing it to pix me off but really I'm realizing that you are acting in a childish manner.    I’ve respected and paid at attention to all your post but if you continue to walk down this path I’ll just simply block you out and assume anything you post as garbage. 

From my understand, I could be mistaken, but I believe the Catholic Church uses the King James Version of the Bible (published in 1611 I believe).
I'm not sure Protestant stand point what bible is the main stay.  I'm guessing the KJV but there are 90 know publications.
http://www.biblestudywiki.com/index.php?n=Answers.How_Many_Translations_Of_Bible

http://www.nationalbible.org/read-the-bible/difference/


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## rjcruiser (Feb 9, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> Seen in doing this you are quickly losing credit with me.  From here on out please refer to "c"hristians with a lower case c.
> Now see how stupid that looks you go that route?  You are simply doing it to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- me off but really I'm realizing that you are acting in a childish manner.  I’ve respect and paid at attention to all your post but if you continue to walk down this path I’ll just simply block you out and assume anything you post as garbage.
> 
> From my understand, I could be mistaken, but I believe the Catholic Church uses the King James Version of the Bible (published in 1611 I believe).
> ...



Go ahead and block me.  I don't know if you'd be the first or not....nobody has told me that they've put me on the ignore list.

Actually, I've always referred to the Roman Catholic Church as the Catholic Church....ask the Catholic's that have been on the board for more than 3 months...they'll vouch for that.  The only  that I do give is the name for the deuterocanonical books....I prefer to call them the apocrypha....mainly because it is easier to spell and faster to type....partly because I do believe them to not be authentic.

Nothing childish on my part....just reminding you that the Catholic church didn't start as soon as you'd like to believe.  catholic church as written by the ecf's was not Roman Catholic Church as you'd like to believe.  We've debated this one before...you can search if you'd like....I won't rehash my reasoning and others that have chimed in on these threads have said it much better than I could. 

Funny, how you lose sight of the original question I ask and focus on the letter "c."

So forgetting the universal church thingy......

If you leave out the entire OT, what is the need for a Savior?  Why was Jesus Christ's death and resurrection necessary?


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 9, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Go ahead and block me.  I don't know if you'd be the first or not....nobody has told me that they've put me on the ignore list.
> 
> Actually, I've always referred to the Roman Catholic Church as the Catholic Church....ask the Catholic's that have been on the board for more than 3 months...they'll vouch for that.  The only  that I do give is the name for the deuterocanonical books....I prefer to call them the apocrypha....mainly because it is easier to spell and faster to type....partly because I do believe them to not be authentic.
> 
> ...




naw site is good.  I asked you/others a straight questions in the past and at times received no reply. T!t for tat I suppose.

I never once said the OT wasn't needed.  If you can find that in one of my prior post I will be more the happy to correct myself.  It's an important part.  I just suggested that since no one on here has any concept of sticking to the OP I figured what was the point in making sense.

I'm a doomed soul bent on life in eternal ****ation for the simple fact I question life around me.  I don’t comprehend the bible as everyone else does and I don’t hide that fact. If God feels the need to cast me down for that then everything I've read and understand is flawed. 


My Atheist friend one said on another forum having to deal with God on a gerenal stance:






Some of it rings true.


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## Double Barrel BB (Feb 9, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> They mis-spelled "ATHEISTS" in the poster


 

Too Funny!!!!

DB BB


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## rjcruiser (Feb 9, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> They mis-spelled "ATHEISTS" in the poster





Double Barrel BB said:


> Too Funny!!!!
> 
> DB BB



And because it is a link to an offsite photo storage address, I can't view it at work.


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## rjcruiser (Feb 9, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> I'm a doomed soul bent on life in eternal ****ation for the simple fact I question life around me.  I don’t comprehend the bible as everyone else does and I don’t hide that fact. If God feels the need to cast me down for that then everything I've read and understand is flawed.



You're not dammned to he!! because of something you did....your dammned to he!! because of what you don't do....Repent and Believe.  May the Holy Spirit open your eyes to God's free gift of salvation.

And in light of your last statement, if you truly feel that way, you haven't read the Bible.


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## Rage_On (Feb 9, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> They mis-spelled "ATHEISTS" in the poster



classic is it not!?! hahahahaha

I told my buddy this is why Atheists will never be have a greater population number then 3% lol

then again I can't spell my way out of a wet paper bag.


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 9, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> You're not dammned to he!! because of something you did....your dammned to he!! because of what you don't do....Repent and Believe.  May the Holy Spirit open your eyes to God's free gift of salvation.
> 
> And in light of your last statement, if you truly feel that way, you haven't read the Bible.



No, it's just the others that preach the bible and feel the need to tell the rest of us we are going to helll that turns me off and I believe many have strayed from the path. 

I rather take my chances believing in 1000 Jews, Muslims, or etc, who are great people that treat me with respect, people that I feel honored have them as friends and knowing that we will all enter heaven together over one christian who believes the opposite.

I'm sorry but I feel God has spoken to me in that fashion and it's worth betting eternal happiness on....with out question. 

But then again I'm just a lonely blasphemer. 



So back to topic if that is at all possible at this point lol


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## Dixie Dawg (Feb 9, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> No, it's just the others that preach the bible and feel the need to tell the rest of us we are going to helll that turns me off and I believe many have strayed from the path.
> 
> I rather take my chances believing in 1000 Jews, Muslims, or etc, who are great people that treat me with respect, people that I feel honored have them as friends and knowing that we will all enter heaven together over one christian who believes the opposite.
> 
> ...




You may be lonely, but you sure as heck ain't alone.


----------



## Rage_On (Feb 10, 2009)

edit.....posted in the wrong thread.  it's early


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Feb 10, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> I have several friends who are Atheists who are all great people. I know for a fact they would help me out with question and always treat their fellow neighbor with respect. I know this thread was directed towards Atheists but from my understanding my friends question the reasons/ways of the world.
> How can a baby burn in a fire? How can God allow an earthquake to kill thousands? Why does God test His followers’ faith? Does He believe the followers are lying? Why take away the ones we love in horrible accidents, cancer and altimerzes? If God is all powerful then why is there evil? Which of the many religious gods is the real God? Who is to say someone else doesn’t have it right?
> I can truly understand all the questions above. I once found myself on the verge of not believing in God anymore do to things that happened to my love ones. God is not an easy thing to accept some times.


 

This is one of the reasons we should all look at our next breath as a gift from God.... My wife and I have lost a child at 11.5 weeks(on Christmas Day), I lost my Mom and then about 9 months later, lost my dad... this all happened within a matter of 2 years... Do I know why God decided it was their time to go? No. I am no one to question God... He created all of them, He can decide when thier time is up, just like He can decide if today is my day, or my wife's day, or your day, or your friends day...  We are not gauranteed the next second... That is why life is so precious. God gave me the chance to see both of my parents the day before they died(both were very unexpected) and I lived 200 miles away from them... I will never forget the Grace that God showed me in that... Or the Grace that God gave my wife and me the ability to get through the misscarriage... Then through the trying times of trying to have another child... God finally graced us in the last year by allowing us the opportunity to adopt 3 kids that are now 11, 8, and now a 16 month old... God's gifts are all around us, we just have to open our eyes and see them... It is so easy to take these gifts for granted, and the most easily one to take for granted, is God's Son, Jesus... Who gave us the Greatest Gift that no one else could... and that is the Gift of Eternal Life... all of these other gifts pale in comparrison to It.

I pray that God will open your eyes and any other unbeliever that you may see all the precious gifts that He has given you...

DB BB


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## Rage_On (Feb 10, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> This is one of the reasons we should all look at our next breath as a gift from God.... My wife and I have lost a child at 11.5 weeks(on Christmas Day), I lost my Mom and then about 9 months later, lost my dad... this all happened within a matter of 2 years... Do I know why God decided it was their time to go? No. I am no one to question God... He created all of them, He can decide when thier time is up, just like He can decide if today is my day, or my wife's day, or your day, or your friends day...  We are not gauranteed the next second... That is why life is so precious. God gave me the chance to see both of my parents the day before they died(both were very unexpected) and I lived 200 miles away from them... I will never forget the Grace that God showed me in that... Or the Grace that God gave my wife and me the ability to get through the misscarriage... Then through the trying times of trying to have another child... God finally graced us in the last year by allowing us the opportunity to adopt 3 kids that are now 11, 8, and now a 16 month old... God's gifts are all around us, we just have to open our eyes and see them... It is so easy to take these gifts for granted, and the most easily one to take for granted, is God's Son, Jesus... Who gave us the Greatest Gift that no one else could... and that is the Gift of Eternal Life... all of these other gifts pale in comparrison to It.
> 
> I pray that God will open your eyes and any other unbeliever that you may see all the precious gifts that He has given you...
> 
> DB BB




Yea the post you qouted I place in the wrong thread (tried to remove it asap but...) but still doesn't remove how I feel.

sorry for you loss and glad you had the chance to see your parents.  Happy for you that you have such a strong faith to see you through. 
I don't which bothers me none.


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## Double Barrel BB (Feb 10, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> sorry for you loss and glad you had the chance to see your parents. Happy for you that you have such a strong faith to see you through.
> 
> I don't which bothers me none.


 

Are you saying you don't have Faith, or that you don't think you have a Strong Faith?

And that doesn't bother you?

You have to have Faith in something... we all have faith in something, whether we admit it or not...

DB BB


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## Rage_On (Feb 10, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Are you saying you don't have Faith, or that you don't think you have a Strong Faith?
> 
> And that doesn't bother you?
> 
> ...



Oooo I have faith.  What degree of faith that might be is subjective.

and no if my current of faith level does not bother me at all.


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## celticfisherman (Feb 10, 2009)

Then you have more faith than I. Because my faith level bothers me all the time.


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## Rage_On (Feb 10, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Then you have more faith than I. Because my faith level bothers me all the time.


I take it you don't feel like you do enough faith wise?...


I just accept bad crap happens, people die, the world blows at times and that's how it will continue just like has since the beginning of town.
I just try to dish out what I would like to receive back, go to mass when I'm suppose to and pay attention, over all try to be a productive member of society.


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## Double Barrel BB (Feb 10, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Then you have more faith than I. Because my faith level bothers me all the time.


 

*Amen!!!!!!!!!*


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## rjcruiser (Feb 10, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> I take it you don't feel like you do enough faith wise?...



Faith isn't doing things....that is the great deception...that works bring about salvation.  If that was the case, no one would have assurance that they'd done enough.

Christianity is like any subject.  The more you know...the more you realize there is to learn.


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## Double Barrel BB (Feb 10, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> christianity is like any subject. The more you know...the more you realize there is to learn.


 

*amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## Rage_On (Feb 10, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Faith isn't doing things....that is the great deception...that works bring about salvation.  If that was the case, no one would have assurance that they'd done enough.
> 
> Christianity is like any subject.  The more you know...the more you realize there is to learn.



I never said faith was doing things.....you insinuate a lot.

I feel that at the moment I've reached my comprehension of God and I'm topped out.  It's not like I've given up learning, I'm just at a limit at the moment.  Maybe do to life experiences, I don't know.  Doesn’t make me have any more or less faith.


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## celticfisherman (Feb 10, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> I never said faith was doing things.....you insinuate a lot.
> 
> I feel that at the moment I've reached my comprehension of God and I'm topped out.  It's not like I've given up learning, I'm just at a limit at the moment.  Maybe do to life experiences, I don't know.  Doesn’t make me have any more or less faith.



No but if you do not worry about your salvation then you are not walking in faith. There should always be something bothering you. Language, abuses (tobacco, alcohol, porn), not studying enough, not praying enough, feeling lost, etc. If God isn't working on you about something be afraid. Be very afraid... You aren't paying attention. Because none of us are perfect yet we are to strive for it. To work towards it. Faith without works is dead... Works without faith are meaningless. It takes both.


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## celticfisherman (Feb 10, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Faith isn't doing things....that is the great deception...that works bring about salvation.  If that was the case, no one would have assurance that they'd done enough.
> 
> Christianity is like any subject.  The more you know...the more you realize there is to learn.



Couldn't agree with you more. Why would you be a Christian and not strive to know all you could about Christ and his followers and his commands...

Seems vacant to me without knowledge.


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## rjcruiser (Feb 10, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Couldn't agree with you more. Why would you be a Christian and not strive to know all you could about Christ and his followers and his commands...
> 
> Seems vacant to me without knowledge.



Yup...What do you love?

If you love hunting/fishing...you'll spend time doing it.  If you love your wife/husband...you'll spend time with her/him.  If you love Christ, you'll spend time getting to know Him.


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## celticfisherman (Feb 10, 2009)

Now you done gone to meddlin...


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## Rage_On (Feb 11, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> No but if you do not worry about your salvation then you are not walking in faith. There should always be something bothering you. Language, abuses (tobacco, alcohol, porn), not studying enough, not praying enough, feeling lost, etc. *If God isn't working on you about something be afraid. Be very afraid... *You aren't paying attention. Because none of us are perfect yet we are to strive for it. To work towards it. Faith without works is dead... Works without faith are meaningless. It takes both.



There are several "abuses" that we all are guilty of and we must all battle those issues so there really is no need to dwell on the point you made, I sure we can all agree on that fact.  There is no definition or set time for reading the bible.  I've never seen one set in stone amount of time I should pray everyday or read the bible.  So that in itself is subject to debate where no one is wrong.  The bible speaks about treating a stranger with kindness because God/Jesus is inside each and every one of us.  So yes doing good deeds, respecting others, being kind to others, being tolerant of others and helping others is like you are doing all of these things to God or Jesus.  You are living His word, you are living His message, and you are acting out faith.  So please consider these things before you accuse anyone who does these things as just a mere "good person" and not a Christian.  Don’t take that from us like you are our jury and judge.  Let God be our judge.

Be very afraid?  Fear?  Really?  Fear.....
See that in itself is the bogus fear monger attitude that puts me and many off from the get go.  To preach fear in order to get people to do good things, this is not the path to salvation.  You are acting out your quote on quote "love and faith in the Lord" out of fear not because you believe it is the correct thing to do.  You fear punishment.  Sorry but bump that concept.  I fear not being punished by God for my faults for He knows I am not perfect.  I fear not the thought of spending eternity in helll for what some may consider a lesser faith because God knows my faith and how I love Him.  I do not fear God nor do I fear the Satan.  Fear equates to have a lack of belief in what you are doing is not enough or you aren't strong enough.  I know the Lord is strong inside of me and with that knowledge I do not fear. 

God works through me in different ways you feel that He works through yourself and this forum/thread(s) have only solidified that frame of mind and the feeling I have on the subject.  The OP did not take anything away from God or try to debunk that, the author said that himself.  God is inside of us from creation inside our mothers.  It was a simple analysis from a cognitive perspective, do you fear this?  My drive to examine the world around me is not out disrespect towards God, but I'm using the gifts God gave me.  He blessed me with curiosity, intelligence, wonderment and a desire to question the world around me.  God gave me free will and I act upon in learning about His creation.  Just because I can examine how the world works down to the atom and electron does NOT take away from the FACT I know GOD has CREATED these things.  God wants me not to fight what I am because He created me the way I am.  I should not be stoned for any of these things.  None of us "darwinites" should be told that we are doomed to helll.  No one, I mean NO ONE, here has that right.  None of us have that right.  Anyone that feels they have that right should really reconsider their stance in God's eyes.


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## celticfisherman (Feb 11, 2009)

You don't get the point and that's fine. 

And yes you do have the right to point out sin. That's a common misconception. We all have the right to warn people. You do not have the right to hate them for it. And this has nothing to do with faith. Your faith statement goes contrary to the bible. 

 Philippians 2:12 (New International Version)

Shining as Stars

 12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

And yes if you believe you are descended from Apes I have an issue with your understanding of "God Created us in his image". And cannot possibly see where you reconcile your "catholicism" and Darwinism.


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## Rage_On (Feb 11, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> You don't get the point and that's fine.
> 
> And yes you do have the right to point out sin. That's a common misconception. We all have the right to warn people. You do not have the right to hate them for it. And this has nothing to do with faith. Your faith statement goes contrary to the bible.
> 
> ...



Thank you for this sir.  You have shown me you are truly not as holy as you tout because you have missed my point on treating every person as if God/Jesus is inside of them.  Last time I checked no one has seen the face of God.  Am I saying He is Ape like, no I am not.  On a DNA level we are more the 95% similar to apes, this is FACT in black and white, but scientist still have not found the missing LINK between humans and apes.  Adam and Eve where created in Gods image and until that link is found I will continue to believe just as the bible states. I will continue to believe this fact stated in the bible even if a link is proven because I'm sure God has His reason for showing us a link between the two. Faith picks up where science leaves off.  

"And yes you do have the right to point out sin." pointing out sin and judging are two totally different things.  You not only point out sin but you judge.  You judge because your words speak as if you are better then the lot of us.  And how dare you question or insinuate my ability to reconcile my religion and how I view the world?  You are a moron to no end if you cannot read what I clearly stated on my in my prior post.  I believe God created everything.  Everything is comprised of atoms (being the core building blocks) therefore I believe in God.  
"Continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling" I know I'm "saved" based upon you definition, so I have nothing to tremble or fear.  Maybe you do but that's your cross, no pun, to carry.  And if I'm going to helll I will save you a spot.


----------



## celticfisherman (Feb 11, 2009)

Thanks. I was wondering if I was really a moron or not. And as for being pious no one on here comes CLOSE to that post.

95% doesn't cut it bubba. And yes I can question how you can be a catholic like you claim and even come close to believing in evolution. One does not meet with the other. You take one far more seriously than the other and that should bother you.

That is not my definition of "saved". I quoted scripture. Sorry if that offends you. Where have I judged??? You seem very defensive for someone that has no worry about his salvation. 

And faith does not pick up where science leaves off. If it does it is not faith.

And BTW- I never accused you of not being good. I said you should worry if you didn't feel God was working on something. BIG difference. Maybe we should actually READ and try to understand what is said. But your two posts here jump to a lot of conclusions about stuff I never said.


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## Rage_On (Feb 11, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Thanks. I was wondering if I was really a moron or not. And as for being pious no one on here comes CLOSE to that post.
> 
> 95% doesn't cut it bubba. And yes I can question how you can be a catholic like you claim and even come close to believing in evolution. One does not meet with the other. You take one far more seriously than the other and that should bother you.
> 
> ...



I was wondering if I was really a moron or not
Apparently it’s been on your mind for a while now.  Sorry to hear that.

I really do enjoy how you pick apart sentences to suit your argument.  Skilled trait amongst zealous religious persons, God asked for religious fruit not religious nuts.  I simply said on a DNA level we are 95% similar, similar by definition does not mean the same or identical.  Once again picking apart a sentence to suit you own means.


If so, then why be a Christian? Why not just be a "good person" and let happen what you believe is going to happen when you die?
You did not say this,DoubleBarrel did, this and I apologize for commenting or claiming you did so.  I retract that comment.
I taste toe jam at the moment.

 And yes I can question how you can be a catholic like you claim and even come close to believing in evolution. One does not meet with the other. You take one far more seriously than the other and that should bother you.  I don't take evolution far more serious the my religion.  But I can't be blind to the facts in front of me.  That would me moronic and pure ignorance.  When was the last time you visited a Catholic church?  When was the last time you where at my church?  PLEASE answer this question in your next post because you DO have a tendency to neglect answering questions when they are asked.
The bible was written by the hand of man.  You claim God guided that hand but it wouldn't be the first time a snake has fed man a lie.  A great deal was but the bible is clearly recanted stories told by fallible humans.  If God wanted to have a hard copy that couldn't be screwed by His "fallen" then He should have stuck with the stone tables and His finger tip.  He left it up to free will of man to write the bible, free will is not always for pure and honest means.

You seem very defensive for someone that has no worry about his salvation. 
  Not defensive, confused on how people can say one thing and acted another.  How they can pick one word out of a sentence a twist it around is very enjoyable for me to read.


----------



## celticfisherman (Feb 11, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> I was wondering if I was really a moron or not
> Apparently it’s been on your mind for a while now.  Sorry to hear that.
> 
> I really do enjoy how you pick apart sentences to suit your argument.  Skilled trait amongst zealous religious persons, God asked for religious fruit not religious nuts.  I simply said on a DNA level we are 95% similar, similar by definition does not mean the same or identical.  Once again picking apart a sentence to suit you own means.
> ...



I was in a Catholic Church 3 months ago in KY. Before that a few weeks with several friends of mine who are nuns and one who is a priest. That's how I can say what I have said about Catholicism. I am not anti catholic. I also have no idea where you go to church. But thinking that we are deceived in the bible is not Catholic. 

"The bible was written by the hand of man.  You claim God guided that had but it would be the first time a snake has feed man a lie.  A great deal was but the bible is clearly recanted stories told by fallible humans.  If God wanted to have a hard copy that couldn't be screwed by His "fallen" then He should have stuck with the stone tables and His finger tip.  He left it up to free will of man to write the bible, free will is not always for pure means."

No way that came from Doctrine.

As for being a zealot or religious nut you really should read what I write. I have not twisted what you say. You may not understand the implications of your ideas and words but I don't have to twist them. And only someone who does not read what I write would ever think I am a religious nut. 

And judging by your posts you do not find people opinions enjoyable. You are offended easily and quite disgusted when someone disagrees with you. As in the case of being Catholic and believing in Darwinism.


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## Rage_On (Feb 11, 2009)

And judging by your posts you do not find people opinions enjoyable. You are offended easily and quite disgusted when someone disagrees with you. As in the case of being Catholic and believing in Darwinism. 

As long as you can read inside of my mind then there is no need to post.  

I just sent you a mind bullet message.  Waiting on a reply.


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## Rage_On (Feb 11, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> I was in a Catholic Church 3 months ago in KY. Before that a few weeks with several friends of mine who are nuns and one who is a priest. That's how I can say what I have said about Catholicism. I am not anti catholic. I also have no idea where you go to church. But thinking that we are deceived in the bible is not Catholic.



I will give credit where credit is do.  I will not take your comments on Catholicism with a grain of salt since you've taken the time to branch out in your religious life.

thats root beer by the way


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## Huntinfool (Feb 11, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> On a DNA level we are more the 95% similar to apes, this is FACT in black and white, but scientist still have not found the missing LINK between humans and apes.



This has been posted before.  


Do you have any idea how HUGE that 5% is?  It's an absolute world of difference.  Humans are 90% genetically similar to LOTS of animals.  

95% and 100% are HUGE.  Why haven't scientists found the missing link between apes and humans?  Most likely because that 5% is so big that the link simply does not exist.

I was actually in disbelief that this thread was still going.  So I'm a little irritated with myself that I just posted.


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## Rage_On (Feb 11, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> This has been posted before.
> 
> 
> Do you have any idea how HUGE that 5% is?  It's an absolute world of difference.  Humans are 90% genetically similar to LOTS of animals.
> ...



it wasn't a long thread till we hit 210 post so thanks for putting us over the top Huntnfool.

100% agree with you on 5% is a massive difference and also believe a link my never be found.  I just find it extremely interesting the ramification if they do.  Like watching a to be continued reality show.


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## Double Barrel BB (Feb 11, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> If so, then why be a Christian? Why not just be a "good person" and let happen what you believe is going to happen when you die?
> You did not say this,DoubleBarrel did, this and I apologize for commenting or claiming you did so. I retract that comment.
> I taste toe jam at the moment.


 
Why am I getting dragged back into this debate... I had already said my piece, and was going to let the Holy Spirit work, if God willed it.

How is the question I posed to you a bad question? I thought it was a logical question... Based on your belief that there are more ways to heaven then by Jesus...

DB BB


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## Rage_On (Feb 11, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Why am I getting dragged back into this debate... I had already said my piece, and was going to let the Holy Spirit work, if God willed it.
> 
> 
> DB BB



Not getting dragged back in, i simply misquoted and set the record straight.  Admitting to fault thats all.
I know you said your piece and wasn't trying to pull u back in.


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## Dixie Dawg (Feb 11, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> And faith does not pick up where science leaves off. If it does it is not faith.



I'm a little confused by this statement.... I thought the whole idea of 'faith' was to pick up where logic left off... to 'explain' the unexplainable.

I would think that you would agree with Rage at least on this.  Faith does pick up where science leaves off.  If it doesn't, then you don't have faith.  You just simply don't know.


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## celticfisherman (Feb 11, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I'm a little confused by this statement.... I thought the whole idea of 'faith' was to pick up where logic left off... to 'explain' the unexplainable.
> 
> I would think that you would agree with Rage at least on this.  Faith does pick up where science leaves off.  If it doesn't, then you don't have faith.  You just simply don't know.




No. You are placing more "faith" in science in this case. Faith is there regardless of science. Science may back it up but it is not to take first place.


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## Rage_On (Feb 11, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> No. You are placing more "faith" in science in this case. Faith is there regardless of science. Science may back it up but it is not to take first place.



I didn't know it was a race.

The sky is blue and for the longest time people just believed is was because God wanted it blue is still correct.
The sky is blue do to fact the wavelength of light that passes through our atmosphere produces visible light to us in the color of blue.  But the reason still is God created it and wanted it that way.


Would you agree or disagree?


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## gtparts (Feb 11, 2009)

Faith is operative in all aspects of the past. That is faith precedes science. Before science was, faith is.

Science does not carry the believer as far as it goes and then faith takes over. Faith parallels science and when science plays out faith keeps on keeping on. In fact, science is more consistent in pointing to faith than its inconsistencies would point away from faith. Science is a creation of God. It operates according to His plan. When what we see as a conflict between science and God is examined, it is always the result of our not understanding His Word or His science.


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## Rage_On (Feb 11, 2009)

gtparts said:


> Faith is operative in all aspects of the past. That is faith precedes science. Before science was, faith is.
> 
> Science does not carry the believer as far as it goes and then faith takes over. Faith parallels science and when science plays out faith keeps on keeping on. In fact, science is more consistent in pointing to faith than its inconsistencies would point away from faith. Science is a creation of God. It operates according to His plan. When what we see as a conflict between science and God is examined, it is always the result of our not understanding His Word or His science.



Not putting words in your mouth but this is my break down from the massive posts

God created man and his mind > science came about by the human mind which was placed there by God > therefore God created science > man uses science because it’s Gods creation > man honors God by using His creation > science up holds faith > faith coincides with science > faith is believing in God


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## Dixie Dawg (Feb 11, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> No. You are placing more "faith" in science in this case. Faith is there regardless of science. Science may back it up but it is not to take first place.



I didn't take what Rage said that way at all.  The way I read it, he simply stated that what he couldn't explain or understand with science, he had faith that God still created it.  I don't see how you think he places more faith in science.  He has clearly stated that he believes God created all, he has faith in that.


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## celticfisherman (Feb 11, 2009)

Rage_On said:


> I didn't know it was a race.
> 
> The sky is blue and for the longest time people just believed is was because God wanted it blue is still correct.
> The sky is blue do to fact the wavelength of light that passes through our atmosphere produces visible light to us in the color of blue.  But the reason still is God created it and wanted it that way.
> ...



It explains why the sky is blue yes. What are you asking?


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## Rage_On (Feb 12, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> It explains why the sky is blue yes. What are you asking?



I got my answer, thank you


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