# Question about turkey shot density



## klemsontigers7 (Jan 18, 2010)

I was thinking about trying some Federal Heavyweight #7's or HEVI-SHOT #6's.  I thought that the Federals would give me a higher pellet count, being smaller, but since they are so dense, it seems like there may actually be less pellets.  Am I correct in thinking this?  The Federals are 15 g/cc and the Hevi is 13.


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## Brad C. (Jan 18, 2010)

You need to try some of the new Hevi-13 #7 loads.  That should be the best thing going since slice bread in my opinion.  I honestly believe in the right choke and gun that a guy should be able to obtain numbers very close to 300 shot in a 10" cirlce at 40yds or maybe even better.


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## klemsontigers7 (Jan 18, 2010)

I'm just making a spreadsheet real quick so I'll know how many pellets are in each load.  I can't find it on the website so I'll just make my own.


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## Sloppy_Snood (Jan 18, 2010)

You have asked questions with respect to shot pellet densities, mass, and quantities.  See if these tables I compiled don't help you. 


The tables at the following link represent _calculated_ shot pellet quantities based on the manufacturer's stated density of the metal and the shot pellets themselves existing as perfect spheres. Actual pellet quantities will vary.


*LINK*:  Calculated Shot Pellet Quantities (Click Here and Scroll Down)


The table at the following link contains the mass (weight) of a single shot pellet of varying shot size and varying shot types (metal composition):


*LINK*:  Shot Pellet Masses by Shot Size and Shot Type (Click Here)


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## klemsontigers7 (Jan 18, 2010)

Brad C. said:


> You need to try some of the new Hevi-13 #7 loads.  That should be the best thing going since slice bread in my opinion.  I honestly believe in the right choke and gun that a guy should be able to obtain numbers very close to 300 shot in a 10" cirlce at 40yds or maybe even better.



I might have to see about those.  In a 1 7/8 oz load, I am figuring about 413 pellets in the Federal #7's and 358 in the HEVI #6's.  For a 2 oz load the Hevi #6's should be about 382 and 2 oz of Hevi #7's should be about 477 pellets.


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## head buster (Jan 18, 2010)

where can I find some Hevi-13 #7?


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## Sloppy_Snood (Jan 18, 2010)

klemsontigers7 said:


> I'm just making a spreadsheet real quick so I'll know how many pellets are in each load.  I can't find it on the website so I'll just make my own.


You don't need to....I have already calculated this for you and everyone else.  

Here is my Excel spreadsheet that anyone can modify to his or her liking (see attached Excel file).


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## wisturkeyhunter (Jan 18, 2010)

Is all this science really needed when it comes to running shot through a turkeys head and/or neck.


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## Gadget (Jan 18, 2010)

Sloppy_Snood said:


> You have asked questions with respect to shot pellet densities, mass, and quantities.  See if these tables I compiled don't help you.
> 
> 
> The tables at the following link represent _calculated_ shot pellet quantities based on the manufacturer's stated density of the metal and the shot pellets themselves existing as perfect spheres. Actual pellet quantities will vary.
> ...






Nice work !!  

Can you post the spread sheet for the mass too?


But....... as you probably already know, what the pellets are supposed to be and what they ARE most often is not the same. Most of the numbers you put up for the TSS and TS are not accurate with the samples I have, the size and density of this shot, and others, can vary by 1g/cc and by .003 thousandths of an inch making the pellet counts off substantially!  This can and does often vary from one lot to the next so you have to re-size and check density every time you buy a new batch.


For example the TS15 #8's that I have come in at 250 per once instead of the 301 you list, that's a big difference.




FYI ....... when I downloaded the attachment and opened it in Excel 2007 I lost a lot of the data


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## Sloppy_Snood (Jan 18, 2010)

Gadget said:


> Nice work !!
> 
> Can you post the spread sheet for the mass too?



Hello and thanks Gadget.  The information on mass is within the same spreadsheet.  Look to columns K, L, and M within my spreadsheet.  I believe I left the columns "unlocked" if you want to see my calculations. 



Gadget said:


> But....... as you probably already know, what the pellets are supposed to be and what they ARE most often is not the same. Most of the numbers you put up for the TSS and TS are not accurate with the samples I have, the size and density of this shot can vary by 1g/cc and by .003 thousandths of an inch making the pellets counts off.



Agreed.  Variations from manufacturer to manufacturer and shot type to shot type will occur.  My general experiences in shotshell dissection and analysis reveal that EnvironMetal's Hevi-Shot and Hevi-13 display the largest variation for density and lack of _true_ spherical shape.  They also have the most "snowman" pellets (two pellets fused together).  I do not see this phenomenon with any other manufacturer of tungsten shot types.


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## Sloppy_Snood (Jan 18, 2010)

wisturkeyhunter said:


> Is all this science really needed when it comes to running shot through a turkeys head and/or neck.



I am not sure it is "science" wisturkeyhunter.....just simple mathematics. 

I know this is not your cup of tea but the original questions to this thread pertain to the physical attributes of shot pellets.  No one is talking about the adequacy of any pellet to cleanly kill a turkey here.

It would seem logical to post "shot pellet 'turkey kill power'" in another thread though.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


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## Sloppy_Snood (Jan 19, 2010)

Gadget said:


> For example the TS15 #8's that I have come in at 250 per once instead of the 301 you list, that's a big difference.



Put a digital caliper to some of those pellets and see what they are actually measuring (on average).

If you have a pound or two of your TSS number 8 shot, you could also see what average density the shot material you received is possessing. Just a thought.


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## Gadget (Jan 19, 2010)

Sloppy_Snood said:


> Hello and thanks Gadget.  The information on mass is within the same spreadsheet.  Look to columns K, L, and M within my spreadsheet.  I believe I left the columns "unlocked" if you want to see my calculations.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed.  Variations from manufacturer to manufacturer and shot type to shot type will occur.  My general experiences in shotshell dissection and analysis reveal that EnvironMetal's Hevi-Shot and Hevi-13 display the largest variation for density and lack of _true_ spherical shape.  They also have the most "snowman" pellets (two pellets fused together).  I do not see this phenomenon with any other manufacturer of tungsten shot types.





I kept editing my post while you replied. I save the file and re-opened it in excel 2007 and lost a lot of data, not compatible I guess..... 


yeah they can vary a lot, the TS more so than the TSS. I'm not sure of Federal's source for TS could be different than mine.

For example the TS15 #8's that I have come in at 250 per once instead of the 301 you list, the manufacturer lists the pellet count at 322, which is off by 72.  They mic at .092/ 2.37mm and after talking with the manufacturer about the pellet count discrepancies and doing some estimations figure this batch to be about 16g/cc instead of 15.


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## Sloppy_Snood (Jan 19, 2010)

Gadget said:


> I kept editing my post while you replied. I save the file and re-opened it in excel 2007 and lost a lot of data, not compatible I guess.....



Let me try to save the data on my desktop and try re-attaching it as an Excel 2007 spreadsheet as well. 



Gadget said:


> yeah they can vary a lot, the TS more so than the TSS. I'm not sure of Federal's source for TS could be different than mine.



All the various manufacturer's tungsten shot materials are different metal alloys.  They all contain tungsten (with varying percentages) but they also contain different alloyed metals in their respective metal matrices.  Some are "easier" to alloy together than others (limited by the manufacturing processes themselves).  As such, variation is inevitable but the level of QC applied to shotshell production will impact what the shooter receives in the cardboard box.


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## Gadget (Jan 19, 2010)

klemsontigers7 said:


> I was thinking about trying some Federal Heavyweight #7's or HEVI-SHOT #6's.  I thought that the Federals would give me a higher pellet count, being smaller, but since they are so dense, it seems like there may actually be less pellets.  Am I correct in thinking this?  The Federals are 15 g/cc and the Hevi is 13.







I have some TS15 #7, it mics at .101, just .001 over true #7. The pellet count listed by the manufacturer is 236 per ounce but the sample I have comes in at only 193. This sample is closer to 16g instead of 15 making the pellet counts come up short. If you were a reloader you could just drop down to the next size pellet to compensate, which is what I did, 2 oz of the #8's comes in at 500 pellets.


The pellet counts with the Federal TS15 can be totally different though.


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## Gadget (Jan 19, 2010)

Sloppy_Snood said:


> Let me try to save the data on my desktop and try re-attaching it as an Excel 2007 spreadsheet as well.




Thanks, I'd like to have that !!!


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## Brad C. (Jan 19, 2010)

head buster said:


> where can I find some Hevi-13 #7?



http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.c...HEVI-SHOT&dept4=HEVI 13 TURKEY&NAV=3&vendors=


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## Turkey Comander (Jan 19, 2010)

Why do we keep hearing Density over and over....We all know it's harder than lead shot....

Lets see some actual pellet weights to go along with you guys claims....


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## Turkey Comander (Jan 19, 2010)

Sloppy_Snood said:


> You have asked questions with respect to shot pellet densities, mass, and quantities.  See if these tables I compiled don't help you.
> 
> 
> The tables at the following link represent _calculated_ shot pellet quantities based on the manufacturer's stated density of the metal and the shot pellets themselves existing as perfect spheres. Actual pellet quantities will vary.
> ...




Just to qualify the witness....How many turkeys you killed Sloppy....8 or 10 ?


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## hawglips (Jan 19, 2010)

Turkey Comander said:


> Just to qualify the witness....How many turkeys you killed Sloppy....8 or 10 ?



Let's qualify the questioner here with a question that actually has something to do with the topic.  TC, how many 15g/cc or 18g/cc pellets have you ever weighed out?


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## hawglips (Jan 19, 2010)

Gadget said:


> I kept editing my post while you replied. I save the file and re-opened it in excel 2007 and lost a lot of data, not compatible I guess.....
> 
> 
> yeah they can vary a lot, the TS more so than the TSS. I'm not sure of Federal's source for TS could be different than mine.
> ...



I cut open some Federal Hwt 7s and counted them out.  I don't have them in front of me, but if I remember correctly, they count 234 per ounce.


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## hawglips (Jan 19, 2010)

wisturkeyhunter said:


> Is all this science really needed when it comes to running shot through a turkeys head and/or neck.



Nope.  

Neither is camo, face masks, decoys, four wheel drive trucks, "turkey" guns, fancy chokes, barrel work, custom calls, vests with butt pads, ATVs, hunting leases, food plots, $100 boots, or internet message boards.

But a bunch of science is necessary in order for us to have any of that stuff.


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## hawglips (Jan 19, 2010)

Turkey Comander said:


> Why do we keep hearing Density over and over....We all know it's harder than lead shot....
> 
> Lets see some actual pellet weights to go along with you guys claims....



It's a simple concept.  Weight per volume.  

If you understand why lead #6 shot is better at killing things than steel #6 shot, then you understand density and how it translates into better performing shotgun shells.


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## silvestris (Jan 19, 2010)

The reason there are fewer pellets of a denser shot in a given weight, i.e. 1 oz. than a less dense shot is because the more dense shot pellet is heavier than the less dense shot. It seems I recall that the number designation of a shot size refers to diameter. Hence, 1 oz. of a denser shot will require less volume in a shotshell than 1 oz. of a less dense shot. You can get more pellets of the same size in a shotgun shell when using the more dense pellet, however one has to be very careful in merely assuming that he can merely fill the shell with pellets due to the danger of increased pressure and the chance of blowing up a shotgun or a brain. The more dense shot will retain energy longer when shot at the same muzzle velocity, all other things remaining equal.

What should concern the turkey hunter is a sufficiently dense pattern at the hunter's self-imposed shooting range. For years I have primarily shot 7 1/2 copper coated lead within 35 yards with excellent results. My patterns are not as impressive to look at as many of the patterns I have seen on this website and others, but it has made no difference to the turkeys.

Each individual has to decide for himself whether it is more important to bring a turkey home whatever the shooting distance or to insist on calling the turkey up close and personal and frequently ride home alone. I choose the latter.


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## hawglips (Jan 19, 2010)

silvestris said:


> Each individual has to decide for himself whether it is more important to bring a turkey home whatever the shooting distance or to insist on calling the turkey up close and personal and frequently ride home alone. I choose the latter.



Those are two choices a hunter could make.    

Other choices include, calling him up close and shooting him with the best performing ammo you have at your disposal; respecting the bird enough to use ammo that provides plenty of cushion to prevent cripples when the inevitable misjudging of distance occurs; doing whatever it takes to throw a bird in the truck, such as bushwacking or using decoys, or setting up over food plots; paying someone to call one in for you; etc.


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## Gadget (Jan 19, 2010)

silvestris said:


> The reason there are fewer pellets of a denser shot in a given weight, i.e. 1 oz. than a less dense shot is because the more dense shot pellet is heavier than the less dense shot. It seems I recall that the number designation of a shot size refers to diameter. Hence, 1 oz. of a denser shot will require less volume in a shotshell than 1 oz. of a less dense shot. You can get more pellets of the same size in a shotgun shell when using the more dense pellet, however one has to be very careful in merely assuming that he can merely fill the shell with pellets due to the danger of increased pressure and the chance of blowing up a shotgun or a brain. The more dense shot will retain energy longer when shot at the same muzzle velocity, all other things remaining equal.
> 
> What should concern the turkey hunter is a sufficiently dense pattern at the hunter's self-imposed shooting range. For years I have primarily shot 7 1/2 copper coated lead within 35 yards with excellent results. My patterns are not as impressive to look at as many of the patterns I have seen on this website and others, but it has made no difference to the turkeys.
> 
> Each individual has to decide for himself whether it is more important to bring a turkey home whatever the shooting distance or to insist on calling the turkey up close and personal and frequently ride home alone. I choose the latter.










hawglips said:


> Those are two choices a hunter could make.
> 
> Other choices include, calling him up close and shooting him with the best performing ammo you have at your disposal; respecting the bird enough to use ammo that provides plenty of cushion to prevent cripples when the inevitable misjudging of distance occurs; doing whatever it takes to throw a bird in the truck, such as bushwacking or using decoys, or setting up over food plots; paying someone to call one in for you; etc.




Both of these are good accurate points.


Silvestris,

 I'd be interested to hear how many birds you've taken with the 7 1/2 and at what distances, and how many you've missed or wounded.  Pm me with the info if you'd like, I don't want to know to try to condemn you in any way, I'm only interested from a statistical stand point in relation to the performance of 7 1/2 lead shot on turkey.


If you have the control and ability to keep all you're shots within the killing range of 7 1/2 lead then you have my respect, the average turkey hunter would not. My fear would be that 35yds is about the maximum range for 7 1/2 ,actually I would think it would be more like 30 instead, and one would be apt to misjudge the distance by 5 or 10yrds and having no buffer to fall back on it would be easy to wound a turkey.


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## silvestris (Jan 19, 2010)

I have missed one gobbler in the last fifteen years and that was last year.  I have wounded none.  I have held off on a number that I thought were killable but I was either unsure of his distance or there was some type of brush between me and the gobbler.

The gobbler I missed last year occurred about two hours after I was nearly shot on public ground.  I attribute the miss to nerves from the earlier close call.  The missed gobbler was with a hen that went south and the gobbler ran north.  I sensed a fall situation and waited thirty minutes before moving.  I then walked the thirty yards to where the gobbler was standing at the shot and found no feathers.  I returned to my sitting spot to wait an additional thirty minutes.  The gobbler only gave me fifteen minutes before he gobbled two hundred yards to my north.  I got up and moved fifty or so yards in his direction, sat up and called.  He was leaving the woods with me an hour later.

I lack a number of characteristics, but in the the turkey woods I am disciplined.  I missed something less than ten when I was young, ignorant and impertinent.  I have been chasing them since 1973.

I obtained my Federal Premium 3" 7 1/2s directly from Federal around 1985 as part of the settlement of a lawsuit and shot them exclusively until I purchased a Beneli SBE around 2000.  I was not pleased with the pattern and began shooting Winchester Supreme 6s.  I purchased a different choke a couple of years ago and was satisfied again with the 7 1/2s.  I have about 20 shells left and dread the day when I will have to go looking for another shell.  I may try the Environ Metal Hevi-13 7s at that time.


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## hawglips (Jan 19, 2010)

Gadget said:


> My fear would be that 35yds is about the maximum range for 7 1/2 ,actually I would think it would be more like 30 instead, and one would be apt to misjudge the distance by 5 or 10yrds and having no buffer to fall back on it would be easy to wound a turkey.



I've never patterned or tested the penetration of lead 7-1/2s.  But based on what I've seen with lead 8s and 6s, the good thing about 7-1/2 lead (compared to larger sizes) would be that the pellet lethality limits would probably just about match the effective pattern limits.  So, in theory, your crippling range would be fairly short compared to some other loads, while you're not giving up all that much in killing range due to the sparser patterns of the larger shot sizes.


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## Gadget (Jan 19, 2010)

silvestris said:


> I have missed one gobbler in the last fifteen years and that was last year.  I have wounded none.  I have held off on a number that I thought were killable but I was either unsure of his distance or there was some type of brush between me and the gobbler.
> 
> The gobbler I missed last year occurred about two hours after I was nearly shot on public ground.  I attribute the miss to nerves from the earlier close call.  The missed gobbler was with a hen that went south and the gobbler ran north.  I sensed a fall situation and waited thirty minutes before moving.  I then walked the thirty yards to where the gobbler was standing at the shot and found no feathers.  I returned to my sitting spot to wait an additional thirty minutes.  The gobbler only gave me fifteen minutes before he gobbled two hundred yards to my north.  I got up and moved fifty or so yards in his direction, sat up and called.  He was leaving the woods with me an hour later.
> 
> ...




Thanks, sounds like a good honest answer. I think the hevi-13 7's will be the right choice when your 7 1/2's run out. Missing only one bird in the last 15yrs is great record to own, and that was a nice play to bag him an hour later!

One thing though, you've been at this about twice as long as me 37 years......  but I couldn't help but notice you say you've missed all the turkey that have gotten away. 

I'm confident in saying I've never missed a turkey in my hunting career, but I have wounded 4 or 5, I think it's hard to completely miss a turkey unless he's under 20 yards, in the "Red Zone". I believe probably in the neighborhood of 90-95% are wounded not missed, the vast majority of birds are shot at 30+ yards. This may not be accurate in your case, but this is what I believe and have witnessed.


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## nhancedsvt (Jan 19, 2010)

Turkey Comander said:


> Just to qualify the witness....How many turkeys you killed Sloppy....8 or 10 ?



Why did you feel that it was relevant to justify his post? Obviously you are a turkey hunting "legend" so instead of cutting everyone down why don't you just offer some insight? Maybe then everyone can see your point of view and learn something from it as well as others. From what I hear you make some very nice calls and you may very well be an awesome turkey hunter, but that doesn't make your point of view any more or less valid than the opinions of everyone else. I would appreciate your point of view on this matter so that I can learn as much as possible from those with more knowledge than me.


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## silvestris (Jan 19, 2010)

It is quite possible that some of what I have called misses were in fact crips.  One never knows for sure unless he is familiar with the "missed" gobbler, either by appearance or the nature of his gobble, and later sees or hears the gobbler after the "miss".  I only recall one "miss" since 1985 when I began using the 7 1/2s and that was one of a trio of two year olds, making it impossible for me to conclusively say whether the turkey was mortally wounded or not as the hunting was fairly heavy across the river from where I shot.  The turkey did fly off, which is usually a good, but not conclusive, sign.


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## Gadget (Jan 19, 2010)

silvestris said:


> It is quite possible that some of what I have called misses were in fact crips.  One never knows for sure unless he is familiar with the "missed" gobbler, either by appearance or the nature of his gobble, and later sees or hears the gobbler after the "miss".  I only recall one "miss" since 1985 when I began using the 7 1/2s and that was one of a trio of two year olds, making it impossible for me to conclusively say whether the turkey was mortally wounded or not as the hunting was fairly heavy across the river from where I shot.  The turkey did fly off, which is usually a good, but not conclusive, sign.





So you've missed two in 25yrs, still a great record. 


Just wanted to see what your take on the Missed vs Wounded theory was, not so much to question your record. 

I have Tivo and record a lot of hunting shows, on every so called "miss", I go back and replay in slow motion, often I can actually see pellets hitting the gobbler, in addition to that I occasionaly see other gobblers and hens who are standing close by that are also hit with pellets.


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## wisturkeyhunter (Jan 19, 2010)

How woulda guessed it?

Gadget watches alot of hunting shows.


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## Turkey Comander (Jan 19, 2010)

nhancedsvt said:


> Why did you feel that it was relevant to justify his post? Obviously you are a turkey hunting "legend" so instead of cutting everyone down why don't you just offer some insight?



I asked that question because it's relevant....not to cut anyone down.

"Qualifying the witness" is something Henry Davis talked about in his book The American Wild Turkey. To be a qualified witness someone has to have more than just key board experience or paper shooting experience.

The bottom line with all this heavier than thou is....a turkey hunter should be concerned with the "weight of one pellet" not that the total load is heavier. 

Of course TSS and Hevi shot poke better holes in tin because they are harder....that doesn't prove that they impart more energy on what they hit than lead.

Show me the actual weight difference between a copper plated lead #5 and a TSS #7 ?


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## Gadget (Jan 19, 2010)

wisturkeyhunter said:


> How woulda guessed it?
> 
> Gadget watches alot of hunting shows.




and you point being ?? ......


Yeah I do, mostly the ones that have turkey hunting involved, used to watch some of the videos and DVD's too, but these days all of them are getting harder and harder for me to watch, usually just one big commercial for product X.......  The Tivo is nice cause you can fast forward through all the commercials and pimping and get right to the chase, usually only about 10min worth of a 30min show.


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## wisturkeyhunter (Jan 19, 2010)

If you enjoy watching turkeys getting wacked on TV than you have no credability when it comes to telling me and others that you have a greater respect for the wild turkey.


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## Turkey Comander (Jan 19, 2010)

Turkey Comander said:


> Show me the actual weight difference between a copper plated lead #5 and a TSS #7 ?



Or a Hevi shot pellet.....I think you "density" boys will be surprised when you actually weigh them.


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## Turkey Comander (Jan 19, 2010)

Will you two stop arguing over TV shows I'm trying to learn something here.


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## Gadget (Jan 19, 2010)

wisturkeyhunter said:


> If you enjoy watching turkeys getting wacked on TV than you have no credability when it comes to telling me and others that you have a greater respect for the wild turkey.




No where did I say I have a greater respect than you for a wild turkey, I did say that I do have a great respect for them and do everything I can to ensure I don't wound or cripple, watching hunting shows has absolutely nothing to do with it.


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## rex upshaw (Jan 19, 2010)

Turkey Comander said:


> Will you two stop arguing over TV shows I'm trying to learn something here.



nOw that's funny, 'cAuse you alreAdy knOw everything.     sorry, darn keyboard keeps acting up.


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## wisturkeyhunter (Jan 19, 2010)

Gadget said:


> No where did I say I have a greater respect than you for a wild turkey, I did say that I do have a great respect for them and do everything I can to ensure I don't wound or cripple, watching hunting shows has absolutely nothing to do with it.


Look around you've made several comments about have a more respect therefore you use htl shells.


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## Gadget (Jan 19, 2010)

wisturkeyhunter said:


> Look around you've made several comments about have a more respect therefore you use htl shells.




This the only comment I've made and used the word respect, where does it say that I have more respect than you, the post wasn't even directed at you......... maybe you should try something else the last two false comments didn't work.....


Looks like the thread starter has decided to try some Hevishot......





Gadget said:


> I respect the birds enough to do everything I can to ensure I make a clean kill every time I pull the trigger.


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## wisturkeyhunter (Jan 19, 2010)

Gadget you ya trying to fool?
You quoted me but it wasn't directed towards me. 
When you say you shoot htl because you respect them enough to do everything possible to ensure a clean kill than you are saying everyone shoot lead isn't at your level of respect. Course you can't buy respect in a 10 round box nor hunting skills in the same box.


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## Gadget (Jan 19, 2010)

wisturkeyhunter said:


> When you say you shoot htl because you respect them enough to do everything possible to ensure a clean kill than you are saying everyone shoot lead isn't at your level of respect.




So now your telling me what I really meant to say,  not what I actually said .......hilarious

You can try to make up whatever you want, it's very obvious that's not what I meant with that comment. No where did I say or mean that I have more respect than someone else just because I choose to shoot a shell that I think is more capable of killing a bird, everyone should do whatever they can to ensure they make a clean kill with whatever gun, shell, pellet they choose to shoot by knowing there gun's limits and staying within them, that's exactly what I've stated here, and in other posts..........keep trying that one didn't work either.




p


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## hawglips (Jan 19, 2010)

Turkey Comander said:


> "Qualifying the witness" is something Henry Davis talked about in his book The American Wild Turkey. To be a qualified witness someone has to have more than just key board experience or paper shooting experience.



So, you admit you have no qualifications whatsoever to talk about TSS?


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## silvestris (Jan 19, 2010)

There is one element of the denser shot that concerns me.  The denser shot  apparently retains more downrange energy and is therefore more dangerous to an unseen man.  This concerns me all the more since I had the close call last year.  

I set up due south of the gobbler and he somehow circled me and came between me and another hunter who came apparently from the south and set up due south of me.  I was calling very softly and I doubt that the other hunter could hear me calling.  I heard a shot and cut my head to the right and saw the gobbler flopping forty yards behind me.  I walked to the hunter and asked where he had been sitting.  Had his gun been pointed fifteen degrees to the left, I likely would have been peppered up the right side and head.  I would rather be peppered with lead at that range than with the denser shot.


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## Gadget (Jan 19, 2010)

silvestris said:


> There is one element of the denser shot that concerns me.  The denser shot  apparently retains more downrange energy and is therefore more dangerous to an unseen man.  This concerns me all the more since I had the close call last year.
> 
> I set up due south of the gobbler and he somehow circled me and came between me and another hunter who came apparently from the south and set up due south of me.  I was calling very softly and I doubt that the other hunter could hear me calling.  I heard a shot and cut my head to the right and saw the gobbler flopping forty yards behind me.  I walked to the hunter and asked where he had been sitting.  Had his gun been pointed fifteen degrees to the left, I likely would have been peppered up the right side and head.  I would rather be peppered with lead at that range than with the denser shot.




I agree is more potent but they all can kill you

Had one close call like that in my career, was setup on a small 1/4 acre loading deck that had a logging road running down one side. I had been working a bird for about an hour, he had walked into the deck and was slowly closing the distance to me, was at about 35 yards, was gonna let him take a few more steps before closing the deal, just then I hear a truck coming down the logging road on the opposite side of the loading deck, just as the truck clears some bushes I see a barrel pointed out the window and the gun goes off killing the gobbler and coming about 15 yards from maybe killing me too.


Funny sig ......but you need to take off the " or spin n strut "  just doesn't go smoothly.....IMHO.


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## silvestris (Jan 19, 2010)

I added the spin n strut after I saw their website.  Might now need to change it to the Killer B or whatever Primos call their latest monstrosity.  Probably gonna just delete the whole thing; it has served its purpose.


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## hawglips (Jan 19, 2010)

Turkey Comander said:


> Show me the actual weight difference between a copper plated lead #5 and a TSS #7 ?



Copper plated lead goes about 170 per ounce.  TSS #7 goes about 183 per ounce.  So, a #5 copper plated lead pellet is slightly heavier than a #7 TSS pellet.  

Kinda like a volleyball is heavier than a golf ball. 

And even though it's lighter, the golf ball crack heads better than the volleyball.  How is that?  Because it's denser and harder.  

And if you can understand that, then you can understand why a TSS #7 pellet will crack heads better than a copper plated lead #5 will.

And what makes using denser shot even better, is that you can have your cake and eat it too.  You can have better head-cracking-ness per pellet, and you can increase the number of those pellets on target.   More and better pellets.


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## Gadget (Jan 19, 2010)

silvestris said:


> I added the spin n strut after I saw their website.  Might now need to change it to the Killer B or whatever Primos call their latest monstrosity.  Probably gonna just delete the whole thing; it has served its purpose.




I'm sure you would enjoy reading the thread about the guys who were gonna mount a B-mobil to a remote control car and drive it around to attract gobblers......


----------



## silvestris (Jan 19, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUG2f3kzojI

is enough for me.


----------



## Turkey Comander (Jan 19, 2010)

hawglips said:


> Copper plated lead goes about 170 per ounce.  TSS #7 goes about 183 per ounce.  So, a #5 copper plated lead pellet is slightly heavier than a #7 TSS pellet.




Give us actual "single pellet weights"....and stop playing golf and vOlleyball.


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## hawglips (Jan 19, 2010)

Turkey Comander said:


> Give us actual "single pellet weights"....and stop playing golf and vOlleyball.



Lead 5s : 2.57 grains
TSS 7s: 2.39 grains

And TSS 7s will crack a turkey's head at 80 yds about like lead 5s will at 40 yds.  It ain't even a halfway fair contest.  It's like a Pop Warner team playing the Crimson Tide.

Number 7s TSS will punch through bones better than Hevishot 5s also.  

And not only will TSS 7s out penetrate lead 5s, TSS 8s will outpenetrate lead 4s.  And not only will TSS 8s outpenetrate lead 4s, but you can back up 20% farther with the TSS 8s and still outpenetrate the lead 4s: 

copper plated lead 4s at 40 yds.






TSS 9x8s at 50 yds





Oh yeah.  Even TSS 9s will outpenetrate lead 4s

TSS 9s at 40 yds





You see, it ain't weight that matters, when you're talking bone breaking penetration of turkey heads.  It's weight per volume combined with hardness.  

Like a volleyball vs. a golf ball.


----------



## Turkey Comander (Jan 19, 2010)

hawglips said:


> Lead 5s : 2.57 grains
> TSS 7s: 2.39 grains
> 
> And TSS 7s will crack a turkey's head at 80 yds about like lead 5s will at 40 yds.




So...it's not really heavier. 


I knew it all along I just wanted you to see it....I just hate you had to whup out the metal targets


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## Brad C. (Jan 19, 2010)

Need he say more.

Maybe he will finally get it.  But I doubt it.


----------



## Turkey Comander (Jan 19, 2010)

Truthfully

I don't like his "80 yard" comment....it could lead some unknowing turkey hunter down the wrong path should he believe that hawgwash.


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## Turkey Comander (Jan 19, 2010)

hawglips said:


> Lead 5s : 2.57 grains
> TSS 7s: 2.39 grains



Let's see if I got this right.

From your own admission a lead 5 shot will impact more energy on a turkey because as you stated it heavier.


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## short stop (Jan 19, 2010)

Frank  ..
    Hal has put up  photo after photo ..

   proof after  proof     proving his point over and over ..


 Im sold  on it ...


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## Newman (Jan 19, 2010)

Actually, the only picture that Hal has put up has been his TSS vs lead against tin.  It really shouldn't come as a suprise that the TSS poked better holes in the tin, since tin is softer that TSS but harder than lead.

Maybe a true test would be to test it against a material that was softer than both lead and TSS.  That way you would get an accurate result.


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## short stop (Jan 19, 2010)

Newman ---

     if it goes thru  Tin   at 40 yrds      ...

   it will  go  thru a turkey  head   at 40 yrds  ..


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## Sloppy_Snood (Jan 19, 2010)

Turkey Comander said:


> Give us actual "single pellet weights"....and stop playing golf and vOlleyball.



Hey fRankEE.  Hope you are well. 

Anyhow, _if you actually read my links and spreadsheet carefully_, you would see that individual pellet weights (mass) are listed for each shot size of EACH shot pellet's metal alloy.  I encourage you to read it before trying to comment on the subject (intelligently).  Thanks! 

BTW Hal....nevermind "God's Gift to Himself."  You have have little more to prove with TSS and fRankEE should consider to taking a basic course in physics.


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## Newman (Jan 19, 2010)

Short Stop- that is my point.  Lead goes through a turkeys head at 40 yards too.  So what exactly makes TSS any better?


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## Dupree (Jan 19, 2010)

Ok, I've sat this one out until now. I was one of those who thought that all these new loads were too pricey. I got a new gun and tried fed HW #7 with 1 7/8oz of shot and fed #6 lead with 2 1/4 oz of shot. The HW's had 207 pellets in a 10" circle at 40 yards. The lead had less than half of that. Would the lead have killed the turkey? Probably, but why not spend a little more and put the smack down on them?


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## Turkey Comander (Jan 19, 2010)

Sloppy_Snood said:


> "God's Gift to Himself."



That's what I thought you were Sloppy....a turkey hunter in your own mind.


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## Sloppy_Snood (Jan 19, 2010)

Turkey Comander said:


> That's what I thought you were Sloppy....a turkey hunter in your own mind.



I am...stick with callmaking frAnkEE because you really don't know sh*o*t (tungsten in this case).


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## Brad C. (Jan 19, 2010)

Turkey Comander said:


> That's what I thought you were Sloppy....a turkey hunter in your own mind.



Is it just me or does somebody else smell a skunk?


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## Turkey Comander (Jan 19, 2010)

Yea I smelled it when Sloppy Snood the non-turkey killing self-pro claimed gun X'pert called me "God's Gift to Himself."


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## rex upshaw (Jan 19, 2010)

Brad C. said:


> Is it just me or does somebody else smell a skunk?



no, it's not just you.  typical cOx.


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## Turkey Comander (Jan 19, 2010)

And here comes ol'Rex singing back up...


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## Turkey Comander (Jan 19, 2010)

You TSS guys just can't take being wrong.


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## rex upshaw (Jan 19, 2010)

Turkey Comander said:


> And here comes ol'Rex singing back up...



back up?  the list is quite long frAnk.


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## Sloppy_Snood (Jan 19, 2010)

Turkey Comander said:


> Yea I smelled it when Sloppy Snood the non-turkey killing self-pro claimed gun X'pert called me "God's Gift to Himself."


Not accurate fRankEE....if you are going to talk poo-poo, try to be accurate or just stick to slandering people that post turkey call threads....you seem to be quite good at that.


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## Turkey Comander (Jan 19, 2010)

Sloppy_Snood said:


> Hey fRankEE.  Hope you are well.
> 
> Anyhow, _if you actually read my links and spreadsheet carefully_, you would see that individual pellet weights (mass) are listed for each shot size of EACH shot pellet's metal alloy.  I encourage you to read it before trying to comment on the subject (intelligently).  Thanks!
> 
> BTW Hal....nevermind "God's Gift to Himself."  You have have little more to prove with TSS and fRankEE should consider to taking a basic course in physics.




I think so Sloppy....


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## short stop (Jan 19, 2010)

Turkey Comander said:


> You TSS guys just can't take being wrong.



 this  coming from the  king of turkey cripplers   ....

 what   was your  shot / recovery  record last yr ?    please tell us  again .


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## Turkey Comander (Jan 19, 2010)

Hal spelled it out...



hawglips said:


> Lead 5s : 2.57 grains
> TSS 7s: 2.39 grains
> 
> And TSS 7s will crack a turkey's head at 80 yds about like lead 5s will at 40 yds.  It ain't even a halfway fair contest.  It's like a Pop Warner team playing the Crimson Tide.


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## Sloppy_Snood (Jan 19, 2010)

Turkey Comander said:


> You TSS guys just can't take being wrong.


Classic fRankEE.....you are much like the current elected Federal politicians:  

you actually think you can change the laws of physics!  LMBO!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


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## klemsontigers7 (Jan 19, 2010)

Wow... I didn't mean to start a fight.  I just got to thinking about shot, and decided to calculate myself how many pellets should be in each load.  Thanks Sloppy_Snood for posting your spreadsheet, that made it easier to compare different shots since I just had one line written in my spreadsheet.


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## short stop (Jan 19, 2010)

klemsontigers7 said:


> Wow... I didn't mean to start a fight.  I just got to thinking about shot, and decided to calculate myself how many pellets should be in each load.  Thanks Sloppy_Snood for posting your spreadsheet, that made it easier to compare different shots since I just had one line written in my spreadsheet.



 lol...       its  an on going saga    against  those who do shoot the stuff  with proven results  -vs-  those  who just   have  it in their ''mind ''  the  stuff doesnt  work  and   havent ever  shot a load of TSS . 

 just a  few loads  of  hOt  air ..


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## Sloppy_Snood (Jan 19, 2010)

klemsontigers7 said:


> Wow... I didn't mean to start a fight.  I just got to thinking about shot, and decided to calculate myself how many pellets should be in each load.  Thanks Sloppy_Snood for posting your spreadsheet, that made it easier to compare different shots since I just had one line written in my spreadsheet.


No problem at all.  Let me know if you have any problems with all of the information being present (compare the spreadsheet to the information in the links).  If you do, PM me an e-mail address and I will e-mail the file to you.


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## Sloppy_Snood (Jan 19, 2010)

short stop said:


> lol...       its  an on going saga    against  those who do shoot the stuff  with proven results  -vs-  those  who just   have  it in their ''mind ''  the  stuff doesnt  work  and   havent ever  shot a load of TSS .
> 
> just a  few loads  of  hOt  air ..



Well stated shortstop!


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## wisturkeyhunter (Jan 19, 2010)

So if tss is not even equal to 2 shot sizes larger lead which Hal's numbers are pretty clear about where does this leave hevi shot which is much closer to lead?


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## Gadget (Jan 19, 2010)

Sloppy_Snood said:


> No problem at all.  Let me know if you have any problems with all of the information being present (compare the spreadsheet to the information in the links).  If you do, PM me an e-mail address and I will e-mail the file to you.





Did you ever try it in 2007 or save it as a 2007 .xlsx doc?


I checked again, the only thing I seem to be missing is all the info of what type shot it is, the rest is there, maybe I can just plug it in manually.


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## mjfortner (Jan 19, 2010)

One of the reasons that it patterns better than lead is that it is harder and does not deform during the shot. Round shot flies straigher. Better patterns is what we are really looking for right? 

 As long as there is enough energy to get the job done at such and such yards that is.


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## Gadget (Jan 19, 2010)

mjfortner said:


> Better patterns is what we are really looking for right?
> 
> As long as there is enough energy to get the job done at such and such yards that is.




One thing I often hear is that lead can kill them just as dead at 40yds and dead is dead so there is no advantage in HTL loads.

This is true in the literal sense, but there's more to consider, the biggest of which is the buffer advantage you get over lead loads, the buffer works in two ways, the width of the "killing" part of the pattern and the distance the load can kill.

For instance.

say 40 yards is the set limit for the hunter, the lead load most often will not afford you a buffer to kill the bird (Reliably) past 40yds, with some HTL loads you can have a 20yd or more buffer. This is a HUGE difference because people make mistakes very often when judging distance and inadvertently take shots longer than 40 yds, this is where shooting HTL can make the difference between a dead bird and a wounded one. Also, as the distance gets further out the width of the killing pattern stays wider AND stays intact better than the lead because it holds the pattern tighter for a longer distance. Say the lead has only a 10" killing area at 40yds, HTL having more pellets and holding better patterns could have a 20" inch killing area at 40, Double! that also gives you a buffer for aiming mistakes as well, would you rather have a shell that allows you a 5" aiming mistake or one that allows 10"?  

I would rather have the shell that affords me a 10 inch aiming mistake and a 20 yard buffer for ranging mistakes than one that doesn't......... I freely admit that I make mistakes every once in a while, I want to do everything I can to help compensate for them, that means shooting the best shells I can find, shooting the best aiming system, for me a red dot, making sure my gun is sighted in......... etc , etc.


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## ryanwhit (Jan 19, 2010)

Gadget said:


> Did you ever try it in 2007 or save it as a 2007 .xlsx doc?
> 
> 
> I checked again, the only thing I seem to be missing is all the info of what type shot it is, the rest is there, maybe I can just plug it in manually.




Here Gadget, try either of these.  My version of excel opened it as an xls, but then I saved it as an xlsx.



Nevermind, the problem may be that the forum doesn't support .xlsx file format...only xls.  PM me your email and I'll send it to you.  I've got it in xlsx.


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## Sloppy_Snood (Jan 19, 2010)

Gadget said:


> Did you ever try it in 2007 or save it as a 2007 .xlsx doc?
> 
> I checked again, the only thing I seem to be missing is all the info of what type shot it is, the rest is there, maybe I can just plug it in manually.



I did but the GON forum file attachment uploading feature does not support MS Excel 2007 file types (.xlsx).    

If you would like the file in the Excel 2007 format, PM me an e-mail address and I will e-mail it to you (and anyone else that might want it).


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## ryanwhit (Jan 19, 2010)

Sloppy_Snood said:


> I did but the GON forum file attachment uploading feature does not support MS Excel 2007 file types .
> 
> If you would like the file in the Excel 2007 format, PM me an e-mail address and I will e-mail it to you (and anyone else that might want it).




We posted that at the same time...


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## Sloppy_Snood (Jan 19, 2010)

ryanwhit said:


> We posted that at the same time...



Sure looks that way.....   Thank you anyway! 

Let me know if you guys have any suggestions to make the spreadsheet "better" (PM if you would prefer not to post your suggestion(s)).

I tried to cover all of the most common payload mass in commercially loaded shotshells up to 2 1/2 oz of shot (for 12 GA shotguns).


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## Gadget (Jan 19, 2010)

Thanks guys........ pm sent


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## poorcountrypreacher (Jan 19, 2010)

>>>>Let's see if I got this right.

From your own admission a lead 5 shot will impact more energy on a turkey because as you stated it heavier.<<<<

Might as well join in the fun. 

Reading the above quote from TC reminded me of something he said in that long thread we had here a couple months back. Here it is: 

>>>>With a arrow killing power is all about penetration....with a projectile it's about energy impacted on the target.

Your claiming a solid porojectile will kill better than a softer projectile that can impact more of it's energy on what ever it hits....instead of just zipping on through. It's just not true.

Soft pointed ammo kills better than a solid...that why solids are out lawed to hunt with....because they don't impact as much energy on what they hit.

You know why all Military ammo has to be solid ?...because of the Geneva Convention (signed I think prior to WW I).

It's a fact that a solid projectile doesn't destroy tissue in a soldiers arm or leg like a softer lead bullet will of the same velosity.

Getting hit with a little 8 or 9 TSS shot and trying to compare it to a #4 lead pellet is like comparing getting stuck with an ice pic to getting hit with a ball pean hammer.

Killing animals with bullets/pellets is about impacting the energy of the bullet/pellet on the animal not poking holes in it...

It just doesn't work out as good with a solid and that's a fact wiether you want to believe it or not. <<<<


All that he has written above is true - provided that you are talking about shooting deer thru the body with a rifle. Or a soldier. Or even a turkey if you are gonna body-shoot him. Imparting shock and energy to a critter by a bullet is definitely one way to kill him, and its the best way for most of them.

But it certainly isn't the only way. Another way to kill something is to penetrate the Central Nervous System (CNS); that is, the brain and spinal cord. I've known people to kill deer in this manner. Years ago I was on the TC list and one of the members lived in TX and deer hunted with a .223. He took nothing but head shots, and claimed to have never lost a deer, or even had one to move after he shot him. I don't doubt him; he was an expert marksman and owned extremely accurate rifles, and that's the way he wanted to hunt. The little .223 bullet is all that's needed if you shoot for the head. I wouldn't try it myself; I deer hunt with a .308 and try to kill them in the manner TC described.

But turkeys are a different creature. While the CNS on a deer makes for a relatively difficult target, its just the opposite on a turkey. When a gobbler stands at attention, there's about 14" of head and neck exposed, and his CNS is quite vulnerable. All you gotta do is penetrate it and the turkey is dead. You don't need large pellets carrying high energy; you need a dense pattern of shot that is capable of penetrating the CNS at the max range you would shoot. 

Hal's pics clearly show that TSS will penetrate better than lead. My one year of hunting experience with it showed that it will penetrate the CNS on a gobbler at any reasonable range. If you are going to try to shoot the turkey in the CNS, the smaller, denser shot will be more effective.

I have wondered if TC is shooting turkeys in the body? The above post sure sounds like it. He's also mentioned several times that TSS would ruin the breast; he's told of digging a handful of Hevishot out of the body of a turkey that he had earlier crippled; he's spoken of using his boot on a gobbler's head. TC, if you read this, where do you aim on a turkey? Are you trying to shoot them in the body or the CNS? The only way your arguments make sense is if you are shooting them in the body. #4 lead might indeed be better if you are going for body shots at close range, but most of us aren't taking that approach. 

Good hunting to all.


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## Newman (Jan 20, 2010)

Things can, and do (including humans) live after being head shot.


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## Turkey Comander (Jan 20, 2010)

It's okay.....the Preachers just trying to save face.


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## Nicodemus (Jan 20, 2010)

Hope ya`ll negative talkers are enjoyin` this.


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## Turkey Comander (Jan 20, 2010)

It'x been tuff.....we've shot tin turkeys....shot lots of paper targets....

The best thing that came from all this was "they finally found out for themselves that Hevi-Shot/TSS is harder than lead and only heavier in equal pellet sizes.

And it a fallacy to claim Hevi'Shot/TSS of smaller size will out perform lead shot of a bigger size.

It's a crying shame people can't debate.


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## nhancedsvt (Jan 20, 2010)

Turkey Comander said:


> And it a fallacy to claim Hevi'Shot/TSS of smaller size will out perform lead shot of a bigger size.



I will bet you one of your fancy calls that it does...


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## Gadget (Jan 20, 2010)

nhancedsvt said:


> I will bet you one of your fancy calls that it does...





He won't take that bet...........


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## Turkey Comander (Jan 20, 2010)

I couldn't because then I'd have to shoot another turkey with that small shot....

I will say Winchester Supreme "Elite" #4 is bone crushing.


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## hawglips (Jan 20, 2010)

Gadget said:


> He won't take that bet...........



Because he doesn't actually believe what he's saying.


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## sterlingworth (Jan 20, 2010)

Gadget said:


> One thing I often hear is that lead can kill them just as dead at 40yds and dead is dead so there is no advantage in HTL loads.
> 
> This is true in the literal sense, but there's more to consider, the biggest of which is the buffer advantage you get over lead loads, the buffer works in two ways, the width of the "killing" part of the pattern and the distance the load can kill.
> 
> ...



I like the bigger buffers, cause sometimes I close both my eyes when I pull the trigger.


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## Gadget (Jan 20, 2010)

sterlingworth said:


> I like the bigger buffers, cause sometimes I close both my eyes when I pull the trigger.


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## wisturkeyhunter (Jan 20, 2010)

Nicodemus said:


> Hope ya`ll negative talkers are enjoyin` this.


Nice dress.


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## Gadget (Jan 20, 2010)

Nicodemus said:


> Hope ya`ll negative talkers are enjoyin` this.





This is the Turkey Forum version of the PSA ......


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## rex upshaw (Jan 20, 2010)

wisturkeyhunter said:


> Nice dress.



funny that you would be making fun of one's appearance.

you think you could loan me your hat?


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## wisturkeyhunter (Jan 20, 2010)

Kinda worries me you have a picture of me saved to your photobucket. Don't need another online stalker.


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## rex upshaw (Jan 20, 2010)

wisturkeyhunter said:


> Kinda worries me you have a picture of me saved to your photobucket. Don't need another online stalker.



i look at it when i want a good laugh.    and i imagine you have bigger things to worry about.


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## sterlingworth (Jan 20, 2010)

rex upshaw said:


> funny that you would be making fun of one's appearance.
> 
> you think you could loan me your hat?
> 
> Aww, he was just fooling around. Nic's a tough old bird, he can take a poke in the ribs. Them northern fellers need them kinda hats. It helps keep their head warm after someone lifts their scalp.


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## wisturkeyhunter (Jan 20, 2010)

Ole' Rex (ya know the guy with pics of other guys on his photobucket account)

You couldn't wear my hat. Just like ya couldn't lace up the boots of a real turkey hunter.


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## rex upshaw (Jan 20, 2010)

wisturkeyhunter said:


> Ole' Rex (ya know the guy with pics of other guys on his photobucket account)
> 
> You couldn't wear my hat. Just like ya couldn't lace up the boots of a real turkey hunter.



look, frAnk's little lap dog continues to speak.  has he trained you to fetch and roll over too?


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## sterlingworth (Jan 20, 2010)

Man, you guys are sure rough on each other around here. I never seen so many people wanting to argue over nothing.


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## Gadget (Jan 20, 2010)

wisturkeyhunter said:


> Ole' Rex (ya know the guy with pics of other guys on his photobucket account)
> 
> You couldn't wear my hat. Just like ya couldn't lace up the boots of a real turkey hunter.




I guess you gave up on me for the time being...



It's ok Rex, according to the "Baby Faced Assassin", I'm not a "real" turkey hunter either......





p


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## rex upshaw (Jan 20, 2010)

Gadget said:


> It's ok Rex, according the "Baby Faced Assassin", I'm not a "real" turkey hunter either......



we can't all be BFA's, or there would be no birds to hunt.


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## hawglips (Jan 20, 2010)

Gadget said:


> It's ok Rex, according the "Baby Faced Assassin", I'm not a "real" turkey hunter either......



He's mighty young looking to be such a bold-speaking expert on what constitutes a "real" turkey hunter.

I wonder if he's killed as many real turkeys in his life as you did last March?


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## Snedley (Jan 20, 2010)

hawglips said:


> Lead 5s : 2.57 grains
> TSS 7s: 2.39 grains
> 
> And TSS 7s will crack a turkey's head at 80 yds about like lead 5s will at 40 yds.  It ain't even a halfway fair contest.  It's like a Pop Warner team playing the Crimson Tide.
> ...



I'll be the first to admit that I know/care very little about all this(except that new or young hunters don't get the wrong ideas), so don't anybody get there drawers in a wad when I point out what I'm seeing with my eyes...and ask the questions that have popped into my head. I'll be as delicate as I can.

In the first pic of the Copper Plated 4's into a piece of tin...It looks like a relatively NEWER piece of tin. 

In the next 2 pics...The tin looks considerably OLDER...with rust and a whole different patina in general.

That made me wonder...Could the pieces be (A)thinner or thicker?...(B) more/less brittle because of age and exposure to the weather or lack thereof? (C)harder or softer because of many reasons...change in manufacturing processes or a different producer? 

Is it possible you need to retest theses loads using pieces of tin cut from the same larger piece?


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## hawglips (Jan 20, 2010)

Snedly, good questions.

They were all cut from the same piece of tin.   Same thickness, same age.


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## wisturkeyhunter (Jan 20, 2010)

Gadget said:


> I guess you gave up on me for the time being...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't you have some turkey videos to watch in slow motion? or maybe some new loads to try out to prove your greater respect.


Good luck with that,
da baby face assassin.


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## hawglips (Jan 20, 2010)

wisturkeyhunter said:


> Don't you have some turkey videos to watch in slow motion? or maybe some new loads to try out to prove your greater respect.



Wis, maybe it's just me, but don't you think you have masqueraded as someone you aren't for long enough already?  

You've been awful condenscending (for a guy your age) about who is and isn't a real turkey hunter.  Take a break and be real.  Come clean and answer the question about whether you've killed as many spring gobblers in your life as Gadget killed last March.


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## sterlingworth (Jan 20, 2010)

Who do you think he is Hawg ?


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## Gut_Pile (Jan 20, 2010)

sterlingworth said:


> Who do you think he is Hawg ?



could it be?

I dont even dare speak the name


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## Nicodemus (Jan 20, 2010)

wisturkeyhunter said:


> Nice dress.





Glad you like it.


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## wisturkeyhunter (Jan 20, 2010)

Hawg
This spring will be my ninth season and I've killed at least 2 turkeys every year since Is started but about half are hens in the fall. Some years I've killed more than 2. Most I've killed is 6 in one year but thats all I did was hunt that year. Stayed up at the cabin all spring season and most the fall. Haven't really kept track of how many I kill cause I don't really care. . I'd guess your not going to believe that but who cares. I know I don't. 

Also how have I masqueraded as someone I ain't.
I've never claimed I was older than I am or hunted longer than I have. Anybody whos been on the turkey boards and pays attention knows how old I am. Sorry you missed it.


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## wisturkeyhunter (Jan 20, 2010)

sterlingworth said:


> Who do you think he is Hawg ?



This is the same name I've used on most every turkey board at one time or another.


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## Turkey Comander (Jan 20, 2010)

That's almost twice the number of turkeys the great gUn Guru Sloppy has kilt.....

Rex for your information.....unlike you Adam speaks for himself.


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## rex upshaw (Jan 20, 2010)

Turkey Comander said:


> Rex for your information.....unlike you Adam speaks for himself.



can't you give the boy some love.  all he's looking for is some affection from you.  

and frAnk, who speaks for me?


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## mjfortner (Jan 20, 2010)

Some of yall seem to be a little off. I could refer you to my shrink if you think that might help. I guess gettin in the woods this march will be the best medicine for ya.  I just hope we can all hang on that long.


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## rex upshaw (Jan 20, 2010)

mjfortner said:


> I guess gettin in the woods this march will be the best medicine for ya.



that will not help some.


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## Turkey Comander (Jan 20, 2010)

I kilt 3 turkeys last week and I'm getting the DT's...:


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## trkyhntr70 (Jan 20, 2010)

Its a shame to see fellow turkey hunters fighting and arguing amongst one another over petty stuff like a bunch of teenage girls!
I remember the good ole days when this forum had some good peaceful conversation about turkey hunting.
Strange to see someone getting their kicks fighting through the internet..


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## Sloppy_Snood (Jan 20, 2010)

Gadget said:


> He won't take that bet...........



Yep...fRaNkEE usually runs from bets he knows he will lose......


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