# "A Theological Debate" by Eduard Frankfort, 1864-1920



## Artfuldodger (Jul 31, 2022)

There is an old tale where the rabbi was asked by one of his students “Why did God create atheists?”
After a long pause, the rabbi finally responded with a soft but sincere voice. “God created atheists” he said, “to teach us the most important lesson of them all – the lesson of true compassion. You see, when an atheist performs an act of charity, visits someone who is sick, helps someone in need, and cares for the world, he is not doing so because of some religious teaching. He does not believe that God commanded him to perform this act. In fact, he does not believe in God at all, so his actions are based on his sense of morality. Look at the kindness he bestows on others simply because he feels it to be right.
When someone reaches out to you for help. You should never say ‘I’ll pray that God will help you.’ Instead, for that moment, you should become an atheist – imagine there is no God who could help, and say ‘I will help you’.”
("A Theological Debate" by Eduard Frankfort, 1864-1920)


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 31, 2022)

There is no need to "become an atheist" to help someone in need. Do you help someone because of God's call for us to do so, or like the atheist, just because they are a fellow in need?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 31, 2022)

I think a lot of times it depends on the sincerity of helping in regards to Christianity. One isn't suppose to help someone for their own purpose or pride.
Well I guess even from an Atheist perspective that would be wrong as well. True the other person does get help regardless of why you help. I mean if one donates for an income tax write-off just for that purpose, the others still get to benefit from it.
But it would still be wrong for someone to do it for show. I think a lot fo people love to do things for show. They want the credit, they want the attention. They seek that pride.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 31, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think a lot of times it depends on the sincerity of helping in regards to Christianity. One isn't suppose to help someone for their own purpose or pride.
> Well I guess even from an Atheist perspective that would be wrong as well. True the other person does get help regardless of why you help. I mean if one donates for an income tax write-off just for that purpose, the others still get to benefit from it.
> But it would still be wrong for someone to do it for show. I think a lot fo people love to do things for show. They want the credit, they want the attention. They seek that pride.



In some cases, people want recognition/praise for the good things they do. That said, which is more self-serving: seeking recognition and praise from God, or from other humans?


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## gordon 2 (Aug 1, 2022)

I think everyone in general walks in life where what is good for one's self and what is good for others in society is ever tested and has to be reconciled. One is happy with a God and the other is happy without.  One reasons from a spiritual outlook, another not so much. But both must reconcile their relationship of self vs the other (s).


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## bullethead (Aug 1, 2022)

gordon 2 said:


> I think everyone in general walks in life where what is good for one's self and what is good for others in society is ever tested and has to be reconciled. One is happy with a God and the other is happy without.  One reasons from a spiritual outlook, another not so much. But both must reconcile their relationship of self vs the other (s).


I find that to be a very accurate assessment.


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## oldfella1962 (Aug 1, 2022)

gordon 2 said:


> I think everyone in general walks in life where what is good for one's self and what is good for others in society is ever tested and has to be reconciled. One is happy with a God and the other is happy without.  One reasons from a spiritual outlook, another not so much. But both must reconcile their relationship of self vs the other (s).



No doubt, it's a struggle (and should be!) for everyone to find that balance between "looking out for #1" and helping your fellow man. If you don't take care of your own needs (and nobody knows you as well as you know yourself) you won't be in any condition to take care of your fellow man. You will be a burden rather than an asset. 
If you flip that around and only car about your own needs, your fellow man can end up being a burden on you. Also, feedback from your fellow man can improve your own life if you use feedback as such a tool. Isn't there something in the Bible that says "iron sharpens iron" or something like that? Also "one hand washes the other" applies here too.


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## ambush80 (Aug 3, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> No doubt, it's a struggle (and should be!) for everyone to find that balance between "looking out for #1" and helping your fellow man. If you don't take care of your own needs (and nobody knows you as well as you know yourself) you won't be in any condition to take care of your fellow man. You will be a burden rather than an asset.
> If you flip that around and only car about your own needs, your fellow man can end up being a burden on you. Also, feedback from your fellow man can improve your own life if you use feedback as such a tool. Isn't there something in the Bible that says "iron sharpens iron" or something like that? Also "one hand washes the other" applies here too.



Good assessment. 

It takes a bit of effort and some nuanced critical thinking skills to be able to recognize that helping others is also helping yourself and your offspring, through the improvement of the larger society.  The "lever" of God does allot of work in place of the ability to arrive at a rational reason for altruism.  Some level of altruism seems to be innate because it's adaptive.  The instinct seems not to engage when the groups get too big.  If it turns out to be advantageous, we will probably develop an instinct for altruism that applies to larger groups.


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## 660griz (Aug 3, 2022)

We could really go down a rabbit hole with this 'helping others' theme. Devil's advocate and all. What if God tells someone to spread the word to some indigenous people of the rainforest or maybe the person just wants to help them dig a well? They go down, the indigenous folks get a disease from the pale face and are wiped out. How is this scenario sorted among the religious folks that made the trek? Since God created all virus and bacteria, did God send them down to kill them folks? Was God misunderstood? Should folks look for someone to help or wait till they ask?


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## oldfella1962 (Aug 3, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Good assessment.
> 
> It takes a bit of effort and some nuanced critical thinking skills to be able to recognize that helping others is also helping yourself and your offspring, through the improvement of the larger society.  The "lever" of God does allot of work in place of the ability to arrive at a rational reason for altruism.  Some level of altruism seems to be innate because it's adaptive. * The instinct seems not to engage when the groups get too big.*  If it turns out to be advantageous, we will probably develop an instinct for altruism that applies to larger groups.



addressing the highlighted section: scientific studies seem to indicate that the number of members where a group gets too big for any one member to feel connected to all the other members is 400. I'm no expert but IMHO 400 sounds about right.


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## oldfella1962 (Aug 4, 2022)

Israel said:


> You know there's an interesting separation between the sheep and goats.
> 
> 
> Jesus talks about it.



Here is the passage:

"All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And *He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left*” (Matthew 25:31-33)."

Not to nitpick, but details that other people may not notice pop right out at me.
Jesus says "all the* NATIONS*" he doesn't say all the people. So, will Jesus judge entire nations (thus entire populations of these nations) as heaven bound or hades bound?
If so, that's entirely unfair since the citizens of a nation are under the control of that nation's government. IMHO if Jesus meant "people" he would have said people, but of course some Bible scholar or apologetic will explain how silly that sounds, because the Greek word for "soap" has similarities with the Aramaic word for "thunder" or something like that. 

Wait, I forgot. God flooded the entire world to include unborn children, so I wouldn't put it past him to send the entire population of a nation to their eternal torment. 
Never mind!


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## 660griz (Aug 4, 2022)

[QUOTE="oldfella1962, post: 13499929, member: 30478"And *He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left*” (Matthew 25:31-33)."
[/QUOTE]
Are sheep on the right hand, meaning preferred, for their tendency to follow and flock?


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## oldfella1962 (Aug 4, 2022)

Israel said:


> I was speaking more fundamentally than an overview in more or less keeping in tone with some of the conversation.



I have no idea what you just said. I don't see a connection with the goats/sheep thing and the tone of the conversation. Perhaps I am not a creature of nuance & subtlety.


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## oldfella1962 (Aug 4, 2022)

Okay I sampled the part I did understand - I think - and will comment on that part.

If you read the whole of the account (and I trust you probably have at one time or another)...you'll see that the sheep were not even aware of what they were doing...as "unto" the Lord. They just fed the hungry, clothed the naked, visited the sick and imprisoned.

They don't/didn't say "well Lord...we remembered reading Matt 25 and knew we just had to do something. You know that part where you separate the sheep from goats and all"

All they did was in no thought of reward nor "doing what the Bible says." In fact all they did kinda say was "hey, we didn't even know that was you." 

I'm probably wrong, but doesn't the Bible say something about your "good works" not being worth anything UNLESS you credit God/Jesus with it? I'm not saying you are doing good works and bragging about it. I mean even if you're not getting any credit (just helping because you like to help people) but you don't give the credit to God it means nothing. In other words, if you are not cognizant that what you do is actually God's work, and thus you are just the vessel God uses, it doesn't count. The New Testament God = the Old Testament God and the OT God admits he is a "jealous God" so I'm sure he wants to be the center of attention. 

Another aspect is once the Genie is out of the bottle, and you are well aware of Jesus
and are a practicing Christian, in your subconscious you might always have the thoughts of "what I'm doing makes Jesus happy - this will help save my behind!" 
Granted not every Christian will think this or dwell on this, but it could be in their subconscious, and IMHO it wouldn't really be their fault. 

This sort of ties into the "you can be the nicest, kindest, most giving person on the planet, but you still go to hades if you don't accept Jesus" mindset. And to be honest that kind of mindset is a big factor in driving people away from Christianity.


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## oldfella1962 (Aug 5, 2022)

One man gives, and might even say "I like to...it just makes me feel good"

One man may say or do according to "I do it because the Lord commands it, and I do what the Lord says!" but if he has an inward bent to "and I do what the Lord says" (to avoid hades) where is his gratification of self, and done in self interest, show any difference?

One man does it to "feel" good. Another does it to avoid "feeling bad" 

You offer two choices/two motivations, but what about a third?
What if somebody wants to give not because it "feels good" or to find favor in the eyes of a god, but because it's the logical and rational thing to do?


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## oldfella1962 (Aug 5, 2022)

Israel said:


> does thinking himself logical...feel good?
> 
> I'll gladly look with you for the man who is free of such...and is pure logic.



Maybe thinking himself logical feels "right" or correct but doesn't exactly fire up his endorphins or anything. True, no man is pure logic, and it's very much a matter of degree for every individual. 

That said IMHO _in most situations _taking the supernatural completely out of the equation is the most direct link to "people helping people" just for the no baggage/no ulterior motive sake of the act itself. No carrot, no stick, just accomplishing the mission of serving your fellow humans.


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## oldfella1962 (Aug 6, 2022)

Israel said:


> This question does not imply any conflict with the statement, but do you take it as the prime directive?



I'm not quite sure of what you are asking, but "mission accomplishment" is what it's all about. Once you have a task/goal/obsession/idea you just try to stay focused and disciplined and see things through the filter of that mission. In my case taking care of my immediate family is my mission and priority #1. This is what I signed up for.
My ego, my desires, my feelings are on the back burner.


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