# What should I do if my wife says she doesn't love me?



## Double Barrel BB (May 15, 2009)

*What should I do if my wife says she doesn't love me?*


*May 11, 2009*

*By John Piper*

<!-- /smaller -->_The following is an edited transcript of the audio._ 

*What should I do if my wife is telling me she doesn't love me, and never did? We are still together, but she doesn't even want to spend time with me. I didn't yell at her. I didn't do anything. She is just saying she doesn't want me. What should I do?* 

Cry a lot. And don't leave her. And pray for the grace not to be angry in a brutal way. 

Don't dishearten or put down or make your wife feel endangered or unloved (Colossians 3:19). Pray that God would help you to continue in that. 

There are times when the church or individual Christians act like this toward their husband, Jesus Christ. I mean, like, every day maybe? They get up in the morning and there's the Lord waiting to talk with them and to have some fellowship with them. And they go to the newspaper. And then they go to the television. And then they go to the car and they turn the radio on. And they go all day long, and he's saying, "Excuse me?" 

How does he deal with us when we treat him as though we really don't want to be with him? The answer is that he is merciful and he keeps coming back, and he keeps awakening and helping. 

So I would say: Stay there. Pray for grace. Keep loving her. Keep loving the children. Be strong for the children. 

And say to her, "I made a promise to you, and you made one to me, and I believe that God can awaken again what you've lost. And if you say you never had it, I think you did. And I think God could restore it, and I would like us to just keep working on it. I'll do whatever I can. I'm willing to go to counseling with you, if that would help. But I'm here to stay and I'm for you and not against you." 

And then he prays and joins with a band of guys to pray that the miracle of awakened love would happen in his wife.


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## jmharris23 (May 15, 2009)

Great advice, it would be hard to do, but I believe the right thing


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## Madman (May 15, 2009)

After 12+ years of dealing with marriages there is a reason she is claiming not to love him and that she never has.  

She is the one "not feeling loved" now but I would be willing to bet she did at one time, there was something he was doing in the beginning that made her want to marry him and he has to get back to that.

God will change her if he allows God to change him.


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## WTM45 (May 15, 2009)

I like the idea of talking, seeking counseling and even working towards compromise.  Discussing options.  Discussing differences.  Discussing financial and physical survival.  That is life.

But if it is not gonna work, make the change posthaste.  Dragging out some broken relationship is a bad thing for both the couple and all involved children.


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## christianhunter (May 15, 2009)

Madman said:


> After 12+ years of dealing with marriages there is a reason she is claiming not to love him and that she never has.
> 
> She is the one "not feeling loved" now but I would be willing to bet she did at one time, there was something he was doing in the beginning that made her want to marry him and he has to get back to that.
> 
> God will change her if he allows God to change him.



I agree with The Madman.


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## WTM45 (May 15, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> I agree with The Madman.



It might not be the husband's fault.  It might not be the wife's fault either.
People can grow apart.


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## Dixie Dawg (May 15, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> It might not be the husband's fault.  It might not be the wife's fault either.
> People can grow apart.



Absolutely.


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## Double Barrel BB (May 15, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> It might not be the husband's fault. It might not be the wife's fault either.
> People can grow apart.


 
If a marriage grows apart, it is because they have allowed it to...

I find it very hard to believe that a Christ centered marriage would ever be broken apart...

Now worldly marriages... yeah... but their problem is they are not focused on Christ... That is why they fail as badly as they do...

DB BB


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## SkeeterEater (May 15, 2009)

So what........just get a new one.


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## Banjo (May 15, 2009)

> But if it is not gonna work, make the change posthaste. Dragging out some broken relationship is a bad thing for both the couple and all involved children.



So is divorce and stepparents.


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## gtparts (May 15, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> It might not be the husband's fault.  It might not be the wife's fault either.
> People can grow apart.





Dixie Dawg said:


> Absolutely.





Absolutely wrong. All married people make choices that either support the marriage or detract from it.....small but significant choices based on "me", not "us". Neglect is just as deadly to marriage as outright abuse. It is always a matter of both parties making bad choices. The dissolution of a marriage is always the result of both parties actions or lack thereof to some degree.


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## rjcruiser (May 15, 2009)

gtparts said:


> Absolutely wrong. All married people make choices that either support the marriage or detract from it.....small but significant choices based on "me", not "us". Neglect is just as deadly to marriage as outright abuse. It is always a matter of both parties making bad choices. The dissolution of a marriage is always the result of both parties actions or lack thereof to some degree.



Bingo.

I think the proper phrase for this one is "it takes two to tango"


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## gtparts (May 15, 2009)

> What should I do if my wife is telling me she doesn't love me, and never did? We are still together, but she doesn't even want to spend time with me. I didn't yell at her. I didn't do anything. She is just saying she doesn't want me. What should I do?



Together?  Close proximity , maybe.

How much time to you spend with her? Forget about her commitment to spending time with you doing "your things". 

Yelling might indicate something is worth getting loud about. Perhaps "doing nothing" is the problem.  You need individual and couple counseling. The important thing is that if there is anything to revive, you (and she) must understand and take responsibility for the relationship from a servant's perspective....not a doormat... a servant. A gardener is a servant to the garden. When you both become "gardeners", you become partners in the outcome.


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## Madman (May 15, 2009)

People grow apart is a cop out.  I am asking ya'll not to give the "exception" because here is the rule.

If the husband is doing what he is suppose to in a marriage, if he is loving, honoring, caring, etc. for his wife as he should she has no reason to leave him. 

That entails a LOT of what if's.  What if he...... What if she......
I will give an example.  The husband says, she is fat and lazy. I work all the time all she does is eat ice cream and watch TV.

My first question is; was she that way when you married her?  If she was what did you like then that you do not like now?

If she wasn't why did she change?  I bet it is because she does not feel like you love her.  So she satisfies herself with ice cream and TV.

Back and forth on and on, he gets no respect so he gives no love, she gives no respect because she gets no love.

I've lived that life.


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## Dixie Dawg (May 15, 2009)

gtparts said:


> Absolutely wrong. All married people make choices that either support the marriage or detract from it.....small but significant choices based on "me", not "us". Neglect is just as deadly to marriage as outright abuse. It is always a matter of both parties making bad choices. The dissolution of a marriage is always the result of both parties actions or lack thereof to some degree.





rjcruiser said:


> Bingo.
> 
> I think the proper phrase for this one is "it takes two to tango"




Sorry, gotta disagree.
Are you the same person you were when you were 17?  How about when you were 25?  Think you're going to be the same when you're 70?

I'm not.  My goals and what I want out of life are different now than when they were when I was 25.  People grow, people change, sometimes they grow in different directions and want different things out of life.  I'm sure you think it would be great if everyone remained the same, but that's just not the way life is.


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## Madman (May 15, 2009)

Dixie,

My wife and I have grown together.  Not as in "grafted" but at the same pace in the same general direction.  That only happened after several years of a bad marriage where we we not growing apart we just didn't like each other any longer.  The problem was comunication, it has taken and extra 14 or 15 years and we are still working on that.

Marriage is a lot of work, takes time and effort, it takes sacrifice. Divorce is devistating to children and the persons involved in the relationship.

No fault divorce has allowed couples to simply split without the effort of fixing it.


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## rjcruiser (May 15, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Sorry, gotta disagree.
> Are you the same person you were when you were 17?  How about when you were 25?  Think you're going to be the same when you're 70?
> 
> I'm not.  My goals and what I want out of life are different now than when they were when I was 25.  People grow, people change, sometimes they grow in different directions and want different things out of life.  I'm sure you think it would be great if everyone remained the same, but that's just not the way life is.



I'm not the same either.  I've changed quite a bit...hopefully for the better.  

I will say, I pray that my desire to have my wife by my side will never change....she's a hotty and I know I'd never be able to do any better.


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## Banjo (May 15, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> I'm not the same either.  I've changed quite a bit...hopefully for the better.
> 
> I will say, I pray that my desire to have my wife by my side will never change....she's a hotty and I know I'd never be able to do any better.




I am thinking you definitely "married up."


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## Branchminnow (May 15, 2009)

If God is taken out of something then it has little chance for survival..............


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## Madman (May 15, 2009)

Michael Reagan uses the analogy of going into your childs room with a baseball bat and destroying everything he has, and as you leave saying "you fix it" as the best description of how a child feels when his parents divorce.

Studies show that as long as there is no violence it is better for couples to stay together and "fight it out" for the sake of the children than to get divorced.  At least the children see their parents stuggeling on their behalf.  They also show that children of divorced couples are more likely to abuse drugs and alcohol, do poorly in school, get into trouble with the law, marry at an older age and get divorced at a higher rate than children of a two parent family.

Banjo hit the nail on the head.  You haven't seen trouble until you get divorced and remarried.  You drag the same junk from the first marriage into the second plus you have to deal with someone elses kids and your ex's new spouse.

Two sets of parents, four sets of grandparents, when do I do what with whom? 

What a nightmare.

FIX YOUR MARRIAGE AT ALL COST!!!!


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## rjcruiser (May 15, 2009)

Banjo said:


> I am thinking you definitely "married up."



I'd have to say I agree with that more than anything you've ever posted


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## WTM45 (May 15, 2009)

Madman said:


> Dixie,
> 
> My wife and I have grown together.  Not as in "grafted" but at the same pace in the same general direction.  That only happened after several years of a bad marriage where we we not growing apart we just didn't like each other any longer.  The problem was comunication, it has taken and extra 14 or 15 years and we are still working on that.
> 
> ...





Glad that work has paid off for you and your wife!

That is not always the result.  I'd have to guess that your result is the exception, not the norm.
And the repercussions of staying together when improvement is not happening can be as bad or worse than just getting a divorce and moving on.

I do agree many give up too quickly without making a genuine effort of getting it to work and growing together.


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## Lorri (May 15, 2009)

Madman said:


> Michael Reagan uses the analogy of going into your childs room with a baseball bat and destroying everything he has, and as you leave saying "you fix it" as the best description of how a child feels when his parents divorce.
> 
> Studies show that as long as there is no violence it is better for couples to stay together and "fight it out" for the sake of the children than to get divorced.  At least the children see their parents stuggeling on their behalf.  They also show that children of divorced couples are more likely to abuse drugs and alcohol, do poorly in school, get into trouble with the law, marry at an older age and get divorced at a higher rate than children of a two parent family.
> 
> ...



The only problem with fixing a marriage - it takes two to fix a marriage- one party can want the marriage the other party doesn't want to fix the marriage.


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## Ronnie T (May 15, 2009)

It takes the cooperation of the husband and the wife to make a successful marriage.  But either one of them can destroy it.
I knew a liar once who told me that in 15 years of marriage there had never been an argument.
I use to believe that marriage required 100 percent from each person.  That isn't correct.  Marriage requires 200 percent from each person.
At times my wife has to more or less "put up with me".  She has to drag me along, forgive my rudeness and overlook my bad attitude.  At times, I have to do the same for her.
I'm often horrified at how terrible a 50 year old man can treat the wife he was in love with years earlier.
And women can do the same.
My wife would have to run really fast if she wanted to leave me.


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## Ronnie T (May 15, 2009)

Madman said:


> Michael Reagan uses the analogy of going into your childs room with a baseball bat and destroying everything he has, and as you leave saying "you fix it" as the best description of how a child feels when his parents divorce.
> 
> Studies show that as long as there is no violence it is better for couples to stay together and "fight it out" for the sake of the children than to get divorced.  At least the children see their parents stuggeling on their behalf.  They also show that children of divorced couples are more likely to abuse drugs and alcohol, do poorly in school, get into trouble with the law, marry at an older age and get divorced at a higher rate than children of a two parent family.
> 
> ...




Fix Your Marriage at all Cost!!!!!     I agree.


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## Ronnie T (May 15, 2009)

Question:

If you learned that your husband/wife has recently cheated and had sex with someone else, would that mean an automatic divorce by you??


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## JOHNNY GREYWOLF (May 15, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> If a marriage grows apart, it is because they have allowed it to...
> 
> I find it very hard to believe that a Christ centered marriage would ever be broken apart...
> 
> ...



What of Dr. Charles Stanley's divorce. You'd think that was
a Christ centered marriage if ever there was one.


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## WTM45 (May 15, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Question:
> 
> If you learned that your husband/wife has recently cheated and had sex with someone else, would that mean an automatic divorce by you??



Yep.
It could mean much worse.


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## rjcruiser (May 15, 2009)

JOHNNY GREYWOLF said:


> What of Dr. Charles Stanley's divorce. You'd think that was
> a Christ centered marriage if ever there was one.



It wasn't a good thing...and because of it, I don't believe he should be preaching in the pulpit (for those who want to have a scripture reference, read I Tim 3).


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## JOHNNY GREYWOLF (May 15, 2009)

Madman said:


> Michael Reagan uses the analogy of going into your childs room with a baseball bat and destroying everything he has, and as you leave saying "you fix it" as the best description of how a child feels when his parents divorce.
> 
> Studies show that as long as there is no violence it is better for couples to stay together and "fight it out" for the sake of the children than to get divorced.  At least the children see their parents stuggeling on their behalf.  They also show that children of divorced couples are more likely to abuse drugs and alcohol, do poorly in school, get into trouble with the law, marry at an older age and get divorced at a higher rate than children of a two parent family.
> 
> ...



Gotta diagree, my parents struggleed for years before they got divorced, truthfully I was relieved when they split up.


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## Madman (May 15, 2009)

> =luckylady;3571596]The only problem with fixing a marriage - it takes two to fix a marriage- one party can want the marriage the other party doesn't want to fix the marriage.



That is true but you would be amazed at the couples that started with only one wanting to fix it.  After the proper instruction they both wanted to fix it.  I am not talking about counseling; I am talking about marriage instruction from the very beginning.  The first thing they have to overcome is the "hatred."



> That is not always the result. I'd have to guess that your result is the exception, not the norm.



This is true only because society has no problem with divorce it has become the norm.  If we would help couples stay together and give the incentive to do so we would be much better off.



> And the repercussions of staying together when improvement is not happening can be as bad or worse than just getting a divorce and moving on.



Studies show this not to be true.  in the absence of violence it is ALWAYS better for the couple to stay together and fight it out.


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## JOHNNY GREYWOLF (May 15, 2009)

ronnie t said:


> question:
> 
> If you learned that your husband/wife has recently cheated and had sex with someone else, would that mean an automatic divorce by you??



yes.


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## Madman (May 15, 2009)

JOHNNY GREYWOLF said:


> Gotta diagree, my parents struggleed for years before they got divorced, truthfully I was relieved when they split up.



You are the exception investigate the studies. I am sorry they split it is emotionally and spiritually devistating.


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## JOHNNY GREYWOLF (May 15, 2009)

Madman said:


> You are the exception investigate the studies. I am sorry they split it is emotionally and spiritually devistating.



You're probably right about the studies, but I was'nt sorry they split up, they were mismatched from the start.


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## Jeffriesw (May 15, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> I'm not the same either.  I've changed quite a bit...hopefully for the better.
> 
> I will say, I pray that my desire to have my wife by my side will never change....she's a hotty and I know I'd never be able to do any better.






Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Madman (May 15, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> It wasn't a good thing...and because of it, I don't believe he should be preaching in the pulpit (for those who want to have a scripture reference, read I Tim 3).



Maybe the Roman Catholics figured out how to keep that one from happening.

Is that one at a time or one forever?  What if he never remarries? What if his first wife dies can he remarry? 

There is a lot in that chapter that would throw many out from behind the alter.  Is the validity of the sacrament dependant upon the worthiness of the priest?


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## Banjo (May 15, 2009)

> And the repercussions of staying together when improvement is not happening can be as bad or worse than just getting a divorce and moving on.



Child of divorce here....and let me tell you the ramifications are HUGE and still present in my life as an adult.  It has also affected my children.  Anybody who says it doesn't have an effect on their children is either lying to themselves to make themselves feel better, or totally dishonest.

Ever watch the show "Intervention?"  One of the common threads found amongst almost all of the drug users is a parent's divorce.


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## rjcruiser (May 15, 2009)

Madman said:


> Maybe the Roman Catholics figured out how to keep that one from happening.
> 
> Is that one at a time or one forever?  What if he never remarries? What if his first wife dies can he remarry?
> 
> There is a lot in that chapter that would throw many out from behind the alter.  Is the validity of the sacrament dependant upon the worthiness of the priest?



I agree...many different thoughts on that one.  I'd say in his instance, he is disqualified.

The question of managing one's household well comes into play as well....and I'd suggest that Stanley didn't do a very good job of that if his wife was wanting to leave him.


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## JOHNNY GREYWOLF (May 15, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Child of divorce here....and let me tell you the ramifications are HUGE and still present in my life as an adult.  It has also affected my children.  Anybody who says it doesn't have an effect on their children is either lying to themselves to make themselves feel better, or totally dishonest.
> 
> Ever watch the show "Intervention?"  One of the common threads found amongst almost all of the drug users is a parent's divorce.



I'm a child of divorce also, I don't think it's a valid excuse for anything, drug use or otherwise


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## Banjo (May 15, 2009)

JOHNNY GREYWOLF said:


> I'm a child of divorce also, I don't think it's a valid excuse for anything, drug use or otherwise



Oh....don't get me wrong, we are all accountable for our own actions.  However, I have always thought it interesting how the addicts on that show are still embittered concerning their parents' divorce....and then usually remarriage.  

I am with the Madman on this one.


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## WTM45 (May 15, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Ever watch the show "Intervention?"  One of the common threads found amongst almost all of the drug users is a parent's divorce.



As divorce rates are well over 50%, that basis of deduction regarding commonality can be found in many various subjects other than drug/alcohol abusers.

Bad marriages negatively affect everyone, whether they stay together or divorce.  One thing is certain.  Where there is physical violence occuring, divorce and physical seperation can put an end to the duration.  That has to be considered a positive when it applies.

No doubt it affects children in a big way.


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## Banjo (May 15, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> As divorce rates are well over 50%, that basis of deduction regarding commonality can be found in many various subjects other than drug/alcohol abusers.
> 
> Bad marriages negatively affect everyone, whether they stay together or divorce.  One thing is certain.  Where there is physical violence occuring, divorce and physical seperation can put an end to the duration.  That has to be considered a positive when it applies.
> 
> No doubt it affects children in a big way.



I am no mathematician...I think that is RJ's field....but I would say that 95% or more of the addicts come from broken homes.  If I am remembering correctly....there has only been a couple of shows where the original families were in tact.  Care to comment on those percentages?


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## WTM45 (May 15, 2009)

Banjo said:


> I am no mathematician...I think that is RJ's field....but I would say that 95% or more of the addicts come from broken homes.  If I am remembering correctly....there has only been a couple of shows where the original families were in tact.  Care to comment on those percentages?



I do not have access right now to any verified statistics on that.
I do know that 100% of those with drug/alcohol dependency issues exhibit traits of an addictive personality.
That is a physical chemical make-up issue that overpowers the mental controls.

Maybe the show has that as a base requirement for the storyline, so all actors/players must meet that?  I don't know.

I think the children of divorce have about as much a chance of being sober adults as they do becoming chemically dependent.
I don't think a parent's divorce is the true primary cause.  But I'm sure in select cases it is the presented excuse for the behavior.

It would be an interesting study.


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## JOHNNY GREYWOLF (May 15, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> I do not have access right now to any verified statistics on that.
> I do know that 100% of those with drug/alcohol dependency issues exhibit traits of an addictive personality.
> That is a physical chemical make-up issue that overpowers the mental controls.
> 
> ...



Absolutely right


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## Huntinfool (May 15, 2009)

Madman said:


> People grow apart is a cop out.  I am asking ya'll not to give the "exception" because here is the rule.
> 
> If the husband is doing what he is suppose to in a marriage, if he is loving, honoring, caring, etc. for his wife as he should she has no reason to leave him.
> 
> ...



That's absolutely correct.  Put in different terms, we all have needs.  They are not to be apologized for and if they are neglected by our spouse, we will go somewhere else to have them met.  It's a fact.

It's called medicating.  Some people need affirmation.  Some need respect.  Some need physical affection.  Some need attention, and on and on.

Most of us have two or three that are at the top of the list for us at any given time.  A husband or a wife CANNOT meet all of their spouse's needs.  That's why God calls us to partner with him to meet our spouse's needs.

He can meet them all.  But he chooses to use us to meet our spouse's needs.  "It is not good for man to be alone"...it's the FIRST human crisis.

When those needs don't get met, we feel alone and we go elsewhere to have them met.  That's what people call "growing apart"....but that's not what is happening.

That husband is not meeting the needs of his wife.  Probably because he doesn't know what they are.  Probably because they are caught up in marital games.  Probably because his needs are not being met either and he doesn't "feel" like giving what he's not getting.

It's a decision.  God asks us to partner with him.  We have to begin to look at our spouse's pain the way God looks at it.  His heart is broken when our spouse hurts.......Is ours?


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## JOHNNY GREYWOLF (May 15, 2009)

Banjo said:


> I am no mathematician...I think that is RJ's field....but I would say that 95% or more of the addicts come from broken homes.  If I am remembering correctly....there has only been a couple of shows where the original families were in tact.  Care to comment on those percentages?



Do you favor divorce when adultrey is involved?


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## Huntinfool (May 15, 2009)

Nobody should EVER "favor" divorce....regardless of the situation.

For the Christian, divorce is "allowed" in that situation....but it is not favored EVER.


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## Madman (May 15, 2009)

This is what saved my marriage.

The closer my wife and I got to God the closer we got to each other.


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## WTM45 (May 15, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Nobody should EVER "favor" divorce....regardless of the situation.
> 
> For the Christian, divorce is "allowed" in that situation....but it is not favored EVER.



Well, it should be favored over death.  That's one of the options in breaking the vow or covenent.
Correct?


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## JOHNNY GREYWOLF (May 15, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Well, it should be favored over death.  That's one of the options in breaking the vow or covenent.
> Correct?



I think the discussion here presupposes that physical abuse is not a part of the equasion


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## Madman (May 15, 2009)

I know couples that have been able to overcome the adultry of their spouse and remain married.  Much grace, much mercy and much counseling was required.  Not to mention disease testing for several years. 

I also know that God allows divorce in the event of adultry.  I never favor divorce, I do favor separation in certain situations but unfortunately sometimes divorce is inevitable.


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## JOHNNY GREYWOLF (May 15, 2009)

Madman said:


> I know couples that have been able to overcome the adultry of their spouse and remain married.  Much grace, much mercy and much counseling was required.  Not to mention disease testing for several years.
> 
> I also know that God allows divorce in the event of adultry.  I never favor divorce, I do favor separation in certain situations but unfortunately sometimes divorce is inevitable.



Agreed.


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## Huntinfool (May 15, 2009)

Me too buddy....several of them.  


And without exception, those marriages are stronger and better and more loving than they ever were before and usually moreso than most other marriages around them.

It requires YEARS of rebuilding trust.  But it's done often and only with mercy and grace from the offended spouse and God.  

It requires a total breaking and restorationg on the part of the "infidel".  But it is done more than people care to admit.


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## Madman (May 15, 2009)

JOHNNY GREYWOLF said:


> I think the discussion here presupposes that physical abuse is not a part of the equasion



Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe WTM45 is referring to the "blood covenant" of the Old Testament.


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## WTM45 (May 15, 2009)

Madman said:


> I know couples that have been able to overcome the adultry of their spouse and remain married.  Much grace, much mercy and much counseling was required.  Not to mention disease testing for several years.



I have no doubt it is possible.
I have serious doubts that the relationship will ever be the same as it was before.
And I greatly doubt things will really improve or the relationship will grow stronger in the future.

I'd laugh at anyone who said their marriage got better AFTER one of the two broke the vow.  That's just keeping it real.


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## Banjo (May 15, 2009)

JOHNNY GREYWOLF said:


> Do you favor divorce when adultrey is involved?



I guess that would depend on the individual and whether or not they could get over it.  Biblically, it is allowed.


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## WTM45 (May 15, 2009)

Madman said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe WTM45 is referring to the "blood covenant" of the Old Testament.



Not in this thread, Madman.

I'm just talking about one of the results that breaks the vow.  Death.
I believe divorce is miles above death, especially if it involves murder or other un-natural causes.


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## Madman (May 15, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> I'd laugh at anyone who said their marriage got better AFTER one of the two broke the vow.  That's just keeping it real.



I would agree with you until the last line where you used the word "anyone."  I met a lady a few years ago that is was true for and would not laugh at her.

Her husband is the one that still carries the largest scars and he was the adulterer but they are stronger.
Never discount God's grace and mercy.


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## Huntinfool (May 15, 2009)

> I'd laugh at anyone who said their marriage got better AFTER one of the two broke the vow. That's just keeping it real.



How many references do you need?  I've got lots of them who would be willing to talk to you.


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## Dixie Dawg (May 15, 2009)

JOHNNY GREYWOLF said:


> You're probably right about the studies, but I was'nt sorry they split up, they were mismatched from the start.



I can relate.
Mine stayed together, and I wished they would have split up.

And yes, that has definitely influenced my thoughts on relationships.  I for sure will never waste my life staying in a relationship that is unhappy.  And I feel sorry for those who do, and shame on those who would advocate it in the name of your religion.


----------



## Dixie Dawg (May 15, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Nobody should EVER "favor" divorce....regardless of the situation.



Hope you don't counsel women in abuse shelters.....


----------



## Madman (May 15, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Not in this thread, Madman.
> 
> I'm just talking about one of the results that breaks the vow.  Death.
> I believe divorce is miles above death, especially if it involves murder or other un-natural causes.



Understood.

There was a time when men would rather die than break a covenant.

Does everyone remember the "walking of the bloody trail" that the Lord walked when He made a covenant with Abram.  That is how important vows and covenants use to be.


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## gtparts (May 15, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Child of divorce here....and let me tell you the ramifications are HUGE and still present in my life as an adult.  It has also affected my children.  Anybody who says it doesn't have an effect on their children is either lying to themselves to make themselves feel better, or totally dishonest.
> 
> Ever watch the show "Intervention?"  One of the common threads found amongst almost all of the drug users is a parent's divorce.



Betty Ford grad?


----------



## WTM45 (May 15, 2009)

Madman and HF, I did not say it is impossible.  I'm sure anything is possible and acceptible to some.  People will let snakes bite them, and some will even fly after a plane crash.  
I just said I would laugh at them.  Sorry, that's just what I feel.
I know it is heartless.  But it is ironic and strikes me as funny.


----------



## Banjo (May 15, 2009)

> I for sure will never waste my life staying in a relationship that is unhappy. And I feel sorry for those who do, and shame on those who would advocate it in the name of your religion.



I feel sorry for the children who didn't ask for any of it....Too bad those in the unhappy relationship don't strive to make it a happy one....maybe they are too focused on how their "own" needs aren't being met with little regard for the needs of their children.


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## Huntinfool (May 15, 2009)

Not in the name of religion...

But, DD, my point is that it's unhappy for a reason.  People don't "just grow apart".  You're right, everybody changes.  But that does not mean that people change in opposite directions.  That only happens when needs are not being met.

If you are in a relationship where all (or most) of your needs are being met, you will not "grow apart".

There are always reasons people grow apart and those reasons can be fixed.


----------



## Banjo (May 15, 2009)

gtparts said:


> Betty Ford grad?



Nope....the Lord spared me from that.  However, apart from God's grace, I could have been headed in that direction.


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## Huntinfool (May 15, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Hope you don't counsel women in abuse shelters.....



You're right....let me amend that.  Abuse is different.  I still believe that even an abusive relationship CAN be fixed.  It's unlikely unless the abuser is "fixed".  But it can happen.

What I meant by "favor" is that it should never be preferred over staying together if it can be worked out.  Follow me?  I'm not saying that you should not get divorced if your husband is a serial abuser.  I'm saying that divorce is not prefereable to staying together.  Certain situations dictate whether staying together is even possible.

I would never tell an abused person to stay in that situation.  Though, I would not say that it requires divorce in every instance.  

Staying in the house and getting a divorce are two different things.


----------



## Huntinfool (May 15, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Madman and HF, I did not say it is impossible.  I'm sure anything is possible and acceptible to some.  People will let snakes bite them, and some will even fly after a plane crash.
> I just said I would laugh at them.  Sorry, that's just what I feel.
> I know it is heartless.  But it is ironic and strikes me as funny.



What I'm telling you is that I have people (multiple couples) that I am VERY close with who have lived through infidelity and come through the other side in a stronger, more vibrant, more loving marriage.

Think about it logically.  If it stayed "the same", why in the WORLD would you stay?  The betrayed spouse always assumes that the old = the affair.  If things go back to the way they were, they would never stay.

BTW....I know this is going to get moans.  But both spouses have blame in an infidelity situation.  Not for the act of infidelity, but for the breakdown in the marriage that lead up to and caused it.

Infidelity is very rarely about the S-E-X.


----------



## gtparts (May 15, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> What I'm telling you is that I have people (multiple couples) that I am VERY close with who have lived through infidelity and come through the other side in a stronger, more vibrant, more loving marriage.
> 
> Think about it logically.  If it stayed "the same", why in the WORLD would you stay?  The betrayed spouse always assumes that the old = the affair.  If things go back to the way they were, they would never stay.
> 
> BTW....I know this is going to get moans.  But both spouses have blame in an infidelity situation.  Not for the act of infidelity, but for the breakdown in the marriage that lead up to and caused it.


----------



## Dixie Dawg (May 15, 2009)

Banjo said:


> I feel sorry for the children who didn't ask for any of it....Too bad those in the unhappy relationship don't strive to make it a happy one....maybe they are too focused on how their "own" needs aren't being met with little regard for the needs of their children.



How can one nurture a child's emotions if their own emotions aren't being nurtured?  And who said they didn't strive to make it a happy relationship?  How many years should one waste trying to 'make it work' before enough is enough?

Sorry, but when it comes to teaching my child something, I prefer to teach her to live in reality.  Not to sacrifice happiness in order to perpetuate a lie.  Pretending to be Ward and June Cleaver in front of your kids yet having no intimacy, love, passion, etc. behind closed doors is a pitiful and sad existance, and NOT what I believe God intended for us to live just because we made a wrong choice when it comes to choosing someone to procreate with.  

And notice I said WE chose that person... what if that isn't who God wanted you to be with at all? Should you be stuck in misery for a bad call? I thought that was what heII is for?  Actually, you say can even get out of heII if you believe in Jesus.... I guess that means marriage is worse than heII.  For some, I know that's the God's honest truth.  



Huntinfool said:


> Not in the name of religion...
> 
> But, DD, my point is that it's unhappy for a reason.  People don't "just grow apart".  You're right, everybody changes.  But that does not mean that people change in opposite directions.  That only happens when needs are not being met.
> 
> ...



Not always.
Someday I'd like to borrow those rose colored glasses you see life through.  Just for a few minutes, though. I prefer to live in reality.


----------



## Madman (May 15, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I can relate.
> Mine stayed together, and I wished they would have split up.



What if they could have fixed it?


----------



## Dixie Dawg (May 15, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> You're right....let me amend that.  Abuse is different.  I still believe that even an abusive relationship CAN be fixed.  It's unlikely unless the abuser is "fixed".  But it can happen.
> 
> What I meant by "favor" is that it should never be preferred over staying together if it can be worked out.  Follow me?  I'm not saying that you should not get divorced if your husband is a serial abuser.  I'm saying that divorce is not prefereable to staying together.  Certain situations dictate whether staying together is even possible.
> 
> ...



So move out, but stay legally married.  Yeah, that makes sense.....   


And for the record, NOT speaking of abuse... staying in the house and having a happy marriage are also two different things....   people can choose to stay in an unfulfilling and unhappy marriage "for the kids" and that's all they're doing.... existing on a day to day basis.  If that's all God wants for us, we'd be better off if he'd never given free will.


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## Huntinfool (May 15, 2009)

> Not always.



Yes, always.  Trust me.....I've lived through things worse than you can imagine and I've walked with others through even worse.  There is always a way to fix "IT".  I know you didn't see it with your parents because they never got to the real issues and were never able to work on them.  I can totally understand why you feel like they just couldn't work it out...like they grew apart and that is that.  The sad thing is that they stayed together and made things worse rather than better.  It's heartbreaking.

I'm not saying that trying to fix it will work always.  It takes a lot of effort and commitment and some folks just get to the point where they don't have it in them.  They get to the point where it's not worth it.




> Someday I'd like to borrow those rose colored glasses you see life through. Just for a few minutes, though. I prefer to live in reality.



Now Dixie....it's beneath you to say something like that.  I'll just tell you that I've seen some people do some horrific things to each other in my life.  And I've seen the results of what a truly broken person can do with themselves with the help of their spouse and God.  

It's one of the most amazing things you'll ever witness in your lifetime if you get to see it.


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## Huntinfool (May 15, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> So move out, but stay legally married.  Yeah, that makes sense.....
> 
> 
> And for the record, NOT speaking of abuse... staying in the house and having a happy marriage are also two different things....   people can choose to stay in an unfulfilling and unhappy marriage "for the kids" and that's all they're doing.... existing on a day to day basis.  If that's all God wants for us, we'd be better off if he'd never given free will.



You're not getting me.  What I'm saying is that marriage is preferable over divorce if it can be saved....that's all.  It can be saved more often than people think.  Most of the time, it's a lack of willingness.  Abuse is horrible and I would never tell someone to stay in a marriage where the abuser is not repentent (REAL repentence) and has not gotten the help he or she needs and has PROVEN themselves trustworthy over a LONG period of time.

Staying "for the kids" is the worst possible thing a person could do "for the kids" IMO.


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## Madman (May 15, 2009)

> If that's all God wants for us, we'd be better off if he'd never given free will.



No one except you has even implied that is all God wants for us.

I know He wants more, But God does not call me to be happy, He calls me to be holy.


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## Dixie Dawg (May 15, 2009)

Madman said:


> What if they could have fixed it?



To live your life in 'what if's' is a waste of time, you can't change the past, all you can do is learn from it.

My parents were mismatched from the start.
My mother stayed with him because of us kids.  He cheated on her and he was an alcoholic.  She said she was getting a divorce but then stayed with him, while he moved us from place to place pursuing and furthering his career while she gave up hers for it.  Then, when we were all grown and moved out of the house, he left her for another woman and his alcohol, leaving her with no retirement, no house, dependent on him for any money, and then sick with cancer. Five months later she was dead... with the added bonus that he didn't even believe her when she told him she had cancer, he had the audacity to think she was just trying to get him to come back to her.  So she wasn't even 'graced' with his presence on her death bed, after giving up her life in order for him to have his.

No thanks.  I wish she would have left him when  she said she was going to, when I was 9 years old. At least she would have been able to live a life for herself, making her happy, which in turn would have made me and my sisters happy.

Life isn't a dress rehearsal and you don't get any do-overs.  If you're not happy and you can't make things better, then cut your losses and move on.  Is that selfish? I suppose if you think so, then that's your perrogative.  I don't think so.  Personally, I think it is selfish for someone to want someone else to stay in a bad relationship just because they're married or have kids.   If you aren't happy, how can you make anyone else happy???

And for the record, I did love my dad.  And he ended up marrying the woman he left my mother for and was married to her until he died.  Of course, she was an alcoholic too.... much better match, I suppose....


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## Madman (May 15, 2009)

Wasn't worth the effort.

Sorry to hear it.


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## Dixie Dawg (May 15, 2009)

Madman said:


> But God does not call me to be happy, He calls me to be holy.



Funny how those two seem to not be able to co-exist.


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## Madman (May 15, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Funny how those two seem to not be able to co-exist.



Maybe not for you but they do for me.


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## Madman (May 15, 2009)

You cannto really have one without the other.


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## JOHNNY GREYWOLF (May 15, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> To live your life in 'what if's' is a waste of time, you can't change the past, all you can do is learn from it.
> 
> My parents were mismatched from the start.
> My mother stayed with him because of us kids.  He cheated on her and he was an alcoholic.  She said she was getting a divorce but then stayed with him, while he moved us from place to place pursuing and furthering his career while she gave up hers for it.  Then, when we were all grown and moved out of the house, he left her for another woman and his alcohol, leaving her with no retirement, no house, dependent on him for any money, and then sick with cancer. Five months later she was dead... with the added bonus that he didn't even believe her when she told him she had cancer, he had the audacity to think she was just trying to get him to come back to her.  So she wasn't even 'graced' with his presence on her death bed, after giving up her life in order for him to have his.
> ...



Good Post.


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## Ronnie T (May 15, 2009)

Some great discussion in this thread.
Very good reading, for a change.

I would not necessarily divorce my wife if she cheated.  Although, at our age it isn't likely to happen.

I also agree that some couples should never have married.  Some need to divorce.

And I see no reason that Charles Stanley should leave the pulpit because of his wife's actions.  He can preach God's word without being a Pastor.  He continues to be God's tool.  I'll bet the Devil would like for him to leave.


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## Speakeasy (May 15, 2009)

Gonna break my pledge not to talk too much; this one hits close to home, and there may be someone (man or woman) who might identify with what the Lord brought me through.

We need to watch out about this discussion, being careful not to paint it with too broad a brush...

I agree, good discussion in this thread. The reference to alcholism (or any other addiction) needs to be examined a bit (or highlighted) IMHO.



Ronnie T said:


> And I see no reason that Charles Stanley should leave the pulpit because of his wife's actions.



And it's alway heartbreaking when an icon (Charles Stanley, Jimmy Swaggart, the Bakkers, and many others) go through a life crisis while being in the spotlight of a nationally-known ministry.

I was serving in the ministry 13 years (didn't capitalize it on purpose), nursing a wife who was hooked on prescription meds. Going to Promise Keepers' meetings in large stadiums, hearing "If the man is just the servant of the household, then everything will be all right."

Problem with that is, it feeds the codependency involved in living with an addict.  The addiction (to anything) has already affected the children more than the spouse knows, if they are an enabler of the addiction, and most are.

Faultless? No one's faultless when a relationship fails. I'd have probably worked myself to death, raising our two daughters, taking care of my "invalid" wife, if she didn't decide to leave us all, and I couldn't stop her.  Counseling, prayer, self-searching didn't help and couldn't stop it.  Hear me, I couldn't FIX it.  And, I found out, that a "fixer" is what I am.

BUT, one of the best pieces of advice I got was from a man of God who said, "If I was you and had to go through what you're going through, I'd climb out of the fish bowl" (meaning the ministry).  When I did (get a "real" job  , it allowed me to walk through what I had to walk through, concentrating on being a pastor to my two daughters (as a single dad), and their natural mother eventually dropped almost totally out of their lives.

.. Talking about my situation, _*NOT*_ anyone else's, hear me?

BUT, God is faithful. My kids are grown and reasonably balanced (not unaffected by their mother's leaving), about three years later I met a woman who has enough mothering to take on the Western Hemisphere, and she saved my daughters (and maybe me).

She says she doesn't love you?  Then fight for the relationship, *admit you're wrong*, pray, seek counsel (_from people who'll call you on your own Stinking Thinkin -not from people who'll tell you what you want to hear_). COURT her (if she'll let you), maybe you can save the relationship.  

BUT if you can't, then God it still faithful.

It's a dangerous thing to judge another person's actions.

As the country song says, "No one knows what goes on behind closed doors".

After all, we're all just working this stuff out, with fear and trembling.  -s


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## gtparts (May 15, 2009)

Thanks, Speakeasy. 


As for Charles, he has publicly confessed his part in the divorce, his kids are grown, God has continued to bless the ministry while Charles still reaps the consequences of leading an unbalanced life that failed to honor God appropriately in his marriage. Sometimes those that fall are repentant and God does not take away everything. One of the things left to Charles is his service to God. Why? I am not certain, but I trust God to always do what is right.


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## Lorri (May 15, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Question:
> 
> If you learned that your husband/wife has recently cheated and had sex with someone else, would that mean an automatic divorce by you??




I would not say it would be an automatic divorce but my fear would be how do you know the spouse wouldn't do it again and how do you get over the hurt that it has caused you in the first place.


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## Lorri (May 15, 2009)

Madman said:


> I know couples that have been able to overcome the adultry of their spouse and remain married.  Much grace, much mercy and much counseling was required.  Not to mention disease testing for several years.
> 
> I also know that God allows divorce in the event of adultry.  I never favor divorce, I do favor separation in certain situations but unfortunately sometimes divorce is inevitable.





I think you have to want it badly on both parties for the marriage to  work after adultery happens.  Also depends on the individual on if they can work it out and be ok with it.  

What about emotional affairs what is your take on that is that the same thing as adultery?


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## Madman (May 16, 2009)

luckylady said:


> I think you have to want it badly on both parties for the marriage to  work after adultery happens.  Also depends on the individual on if they can work it out and be ok with it.
> 
> What about emotional affairs what is your take on that is that the same thing as adultery?



An affair is a relationship that takes those "resources" from the wife/family.  If i am spending my time at the office flirting and discussing matters other than business with a member of the opposite sex then I am taking those "communication" opportunities away from my wife.

She is the one that deserves that time, discussions and flirting.

Didn't answer very well.


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## Lorri (May 16, 2009)

Madman said:


> An affair is a relationship that takes those "resources" from the wife/family.  If i am spending my time at the office flirting and discussing matters other than business with a member of the opposite sex then I am taking those "communication" opportunities away from my wife.
> 
> She is the one that deserves that time, discussions and flirting.
> 
> Didn't answer very well.



Excellent answer.  I couldn't agree more so much of
emotional affairs are happening these days but they 
are being justified as JUST FRIENDSHIPS but when
it takes things away from the spouse then it is 
not A FRIENDSHIP.  In my opinion this is as bad
as someone cheating on someone because usually
the spouse does not know about it.


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## gordon 2 (May 17, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> *What should I do if my wife says she doesn't love me?*
> 
> 
> *May 11, 2009*
> ...




Concerning a women's turning from love for her mate, that is not uncommon in that women do see intimate relationship different then men. Women tend to "evaluate" relationship every five yrs or so. (Till death do us apart, don't mean physical death, but death of the relationship.)

Men on the other hand are happy as long as there is food on the plate and things don't get too muti-tasking for a male... ( Till death do us apart means death after incontinence, senility and beyond.)

My faith is not my wife's faith... What He says to me, He don't nessarily need to say t0 her. The reasons I stay with my wife are not the reasons she stays with me. What I see in her is not what she sees in me. So He ain't saying to her what He tells me...

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## MudDucker (May 17, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I can relate.
> Mine stayed together, and I wished they would have split up.
> 
> And yes, that has definitely influenced my thoughts on relationships.  I for sure will never waste my life staying in a relationship that is unhappy.  And I feel sorry for those who do, and shame on those who would advocate it in the name of your religion.



No, shame on you that you are so narcissistic that you consider a period of unhappiness in a marriage enough to break the bonds of marriage.  Marriage go up and down.  Too many folks such as you don't have what it takes to make a marriage work through thick and thin.


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## MudDucker (May 17, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Funny how those two seem to not be able to co-exist.



They co-exist rather well in fact.  I am my happiest when I work at getting out of "me" and into "Him" and seeking to help others rather than myself.

I read your post about your parents and I see where pain has warped you.  Well, we are all warped unfortunately, some more than others.  I will pray for your healing and for you to find a way to forgive your father.  If he sought after it, he has found forgiveness from our Father.  Resentments against those you love are heavy burdens for our spirits to carry.  I know this from my own experiences.


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## gtparts (May 17, 2009)

MudDucker said:


> No, shame on you that you are so narcissistic that you consider a period of unhappiness in a marriage enough to break the bonds of marriage.  Marriage go up and down.  Too many folks such as you don't have what it takes to make a marriage work through thick and thin.



Just some things brought to mind:

At one time, honor dictated the threshold of what was "sacred" and what was not. Situational ethics, then, allowed for moving the boundaries. Honor became flexible, mutable, nebulous, undefined. With honor having been dispatched and discarded, man turned back to the issue of the "sacred" and having little support without honor, proceeded to undermine what remained. 

Marriage was at one time a noble and shining institution. Still is in some individual examples. Perfect? Never quite, but the pinnacle of male/female relationships, giving structure to and support for family units, communities, municipalities, states, and nations. As a religious and social structure, it gave rise to all the human advancement we should hold dear in this life: people, not things; relationships, not possessions.

And what has marriage become for many? 

A self-serving convenience? Another rung on the ladder of personal achievement? A temporary social arrangement to avoid loneliness or to facilitate networking with aspirants to power and wealth? A tool to leverage ones status?

The gays and lesbians make no more a mockery of marriage than straight couples who co-habitate or who chuck marriage like a spent tissue. Try to convince yourself that more than half of all marriages are so flawed as to merit dissolution because resolution and reconciliation is impossible. Or , is it just too much effort to ask that partners commit and submit to each other?

If marriage was ever capable of supplying constant and increasing happiness to both parties, it was only in Eden, and then for just a brief time till sin was made manifest. 

If happiness is the goal of marriage, it will only be found in the context of adversity overcome. There are NO peaks without valleys, NO heights of joy and fulfillment without pain and disappointment. The lows of marriage define the highs. It has ever been so. 

The secret is to press for the highs and hold them precious, while enduring the lows with optimism and remembering that they too shall pass.
Marriage is not a sprint, but a marathon of unknown distance. Only those who run the entire distance "get a t-shirt".
The "t-shirt" is made significant by your two running partners.

As to the thick and thin, some never add to the thickness, expecting whatever they had in the beginning to not wear out. Kinda like writing checks on an account without making sufficient and substantial deposits on a regular basis.


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## Jeffriesw (May 17, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Child of divorce here....and let me tell you the ramifications are HUGE and still present in my life as an adult.  It has also affected my children.  Anybody who says it doesn't have an effect on their children is either lying to themselves to make themselves feel better, or totally dishonest.



X's 2

Now that I am in my 40's I can look back at my parents divorce, I realize just how bad it affected my brother and I in every aspect of our lives even into adulthood.

We were told at the time it was because; just grown apart,
life is hard, yada yada yada

I can look back now and see how just one sided it really was, it was driven by one persons extreme ego and self centeredness.

Most of my life I only really ever trusted one person, and that was my Brother, He had never let me down,nor I him. We made a pact  about that the week they told us they were gettin divorced (10 & 11). I was married for over 20 years before I ever really even fully trusted my own wife.
I was one cold hard hearted person, I can gaurantee you that!

It wasn't until God began to do a work in my life the last few years that I fully learned to trust anyone.
Heck, When I look back, He was already doing a work in my life even before I started following Him, I was just to closed away to see it at the time.

He is just that Faithful..


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## Artmom (May 17, 2009)

*Dixie you've got down pat...*



Dixie Dawg said:


> Sorry, gotta disagree.
> Are you the same person you were when you were 17?  How about when you were 25?  Think you're going to be the same when you're 70?
> 
> I'm not.  My goals and what I want out of life are different now than when they were when I was 25.  People grow, people change, sometimes they grow in different directions and want different things out of life.  I'm sure you think it would be great if everyone remained the same, but that's just not the way life is.



I'm with you kid.


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## WTM45 (May 17, 2009)

MudDucker said:


> No, shame on you that you are so narcissistic that you consider a period of unhappiness in a marriage enough to break the bonds of marriage.  Marriage go up and down.  Too many folks such as you don't have what it takes to make a marriage work through thick and thin.




I feel all warm and fuzzy.  Do you, DD?

I can keep a '72 Ford Pinto running.  But there might come a time when it will no longer do the speed limit, not pass inspection, not stop rusting and becomes totally non-dependable.  I might still love that Pinto!
At that point I won't go looking for another '72 Ford Pinto.


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## Artmom (May 17, 2009)

Look: All of this is fine and good. But when you are married to someone who crushes your children's spirits' by constantly expecting wayyyy tooo much of them and being critical at every opportunity: is iat good for the couple to stay married? 

You can have a spouse who means well, but goes about things totally wrong. And he/she is convinced they are doing things the "right" way and won't consider counseling. Then, should the other parent remain in that marriage because it's the right thing to do? 

There are people out there who are good, hard working, responsible people who treat their spouses well, but haven't a clue how to handle children. When the children come along...do you just stay together forever, regardless, and allow emotional abuse to warp your children? Especially when the spouse doesn't even realize  (after many discussions) how much damage is being done? Some people have great intentions but have one heck of a way of showing it.


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## gtparts (May 17, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> I feel all warm and fuzzy.  Do you, DD?
> 
> I can keep a '72 Ford Pinto running.  But there might come a time when it will no longer do the speed limit, not pass inspection, not stop rusting and becomes totally non-dependable.  I might still love that Pinto!
> At that point I won't go looking for another '72 Ford Pinto.



With all due respect, the analogy is terrible. Neither marriages nor spouses should be held in the same regard as a Pinto. I  myself at the thought of any Pinto owner being so enamored, much more at the thought of someone searching out another as replacement. 

People repeating choices of personal preference is understandable and sometimes humorous a la Pinto.

 But patterns of poor choices as exemplified by many stories here, should be sobering and should prompt us to make more prudent choices for ourselves and our children (given that there are any) in the future. Nothing funny here...always serious and sometimes quite sad.

One last point. A Pinto is just that.... a Pinto. It can not change or even seek to change. People tend to be a little more flexible and aspiring...particularly if sufficiently motivated.


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## earl (May 17, 2009)

One last point. A Pinto is just that.... a Pinto. It can not change or even seek to change.





> WRONG !!!!!!!!! When I first bought my Pinto Wagon it was a beautiful ,gas saving ,grocery getting family car. You couldn't ask for more.In the end is was the most cussed ,no running.Rusted out,smoking, P.O,S. I had ever had the misfortune of spending hard earned cash on. Of course it was partly my fault . All I did was add gas and oil and drive her hard. No washing ,no waxing. Glad it only lasted for 6 months.


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## Madman (May 17, 2009)

earl said:


> One last point. A Pinto is just that.... a Pinto. It can not change or even seek to change.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## gtparts (May 17, 2009)

earl said:


> One last point. A Pinto is just that.... a Pinto. It can not change or even seek to change.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## gtparts (May 17, 2009)

Madman said:


> earl said:
> 
> 
> > One last point. A Pinto is just that.... a Pinto. It can not change or even seek to change.
> ...


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## Bulldawger (May 17, 2009)

a must read for all couples  The Five Love Languages  by Gary Chapman.  Opened our eyes.


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## Dixie Dawg (May 17, 2009)

MudDucker said:


> No, shame on you that you are so narcissistic that you consider a period of unhappiness in a marriage enough to break the bonds of marriage.  Marriage go up and down.  Too many folks such as you don't have what it takes to make a marriage work through thick and thin.



Yeah.... how many YEARS should one consider it a 'period of unhappiness'?     

I wanna know where y'all buy those rose colored glasses... they sound way better than any drug I ever heard of.....


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## earl (May 17, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Yeah.... how many YEARS should one consider it a 'period of unhappiness'?
> 
> I wanna know where y'all buy those rose colored glasses... they sound way better than any drug I ever heard of.....





If I remember right they  were issued when you bought your PInto.


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## Dixie Dawg (May 17, 2009)

earl said:


> If I remember right they  were issued when you bought your PInto.



That's what I get for buying a Vega....


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## MudDucker (May 18, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> I feel all warm and fuzzy.  Do you, DD?
> 
> I can keep a '72 Ford Pinto running.  But there might come a time when it will no longer do the speed limit, not pass inspection, not stop rusting and becomes totally non-dependable.  I might still love that Pinto!
> At that point I won't go looking for another '72 Ford Pinto.



Are you proud of this response.  If so, it takes very little to entertain you.

If a relationship between a man and woman is nothing but a car to you, I can only imagine why the best you ever got was a Pinto.


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## MudDucker (May 18, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Yeah.... how many YEARS should one consider it a 'period of unhappiness'?
> 
> I wanna know where y'all buy those rose colored glasses... they sound way better than any drug I ever heard of.....



I have known people who endured ten years of unhappiness only to rediscover their love and have many years of great joy thereafter.  

No, it is you who are wearing the glasses, because it is you who is the problem in the relationship and no matter how many times you start over with a new model spouse, you will still be a part of that relationship.  I am not surprised that you pick up quickly on the analogy of drugs to remove yourself from reality.  Again, I hope some day you find peace in your heart.


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## Madman (May 18, 2009)

> Originally Posted by Dixie Dawg
> Yeah.... how many YEARS should one consider it a 'period of unhappiness'?
> 
> I wanna know where y'all buy those rose colored glasses... they sound way better than any drug I ever heard of....




They are not "rose colored", they are "truth filtered" and you cannot purchase them they are freely given, all you have to do is accept them.  Unfortunately they do not come in all the latest styles and colors.  One size fits all, when you use 1-800-PRAYER just ask for Jesus, he knows what you need.

You are correct, "the truth" is better than any drug, if you have it you don't need the drugs.


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## jimbo4116 (May 18, 2009)

MudDucker said:


> Are you proud of this response.  If so, it takes very little to entertain you.
> 
> If a relationship between a man and woman is nothing but a car to you, I can only imagine why the best you ever got was a Pinto.



Well said, but might I add that once that '72 pinto is rusty, slow in getting started and not quite a shiny, he want be a '69 Mustang Boss Hoss anymore either.

The scenario laid out suggests the Pinto may well have jump the fence first leaving him to lust for the newer model but also to face the reality that women are not like cars. You can buy or lease a car but unlike a car you never own a woman.


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## Double Barrel BB (May 18, 2009)

JOHNNY GREYWOLF said:


> What of Dr. Charles Stanley's divorce. You'd think that was
> a Christ centered marriage if ever there was one.


 

Didn't know he was divorced... don't listen to him much...

Thinking and Being are 2 different things... people can think that a marriage is Christ centered, and it really not be... do I know if his was Christ centered... no... I find it very hard to believe that it was... but that is just my opinion... based on the fruits of the relationship...

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (May 18, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> it wasn't a good thing...and because of it, i don't believe he should be preaching in the pulpit (for those who want to have a scripture reference, read i tim 3).


 

*amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## WTM45 (May 18, 2009)

MudDucker said:


> Are you proud of this response.  If so, it takes very little to entertain you.
> 
> If a relationship between a man and woman is nothing but a car to you, I can only imagine why the best you ever got was a Pinto.




It was a joke.

Sling your mud.  
I out-kicked my coverage for sure with my spouse!


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## Madman (May 18, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Well, it should be favored over death.  That's one of the options in breaking the vow or covenent.
> Correct?



Death shouldn't scare the Christian and here's the proof  --text.  

1Co 15:55  O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?


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## Dixie Dawg (May 18, 2009)

MudDucker said:


> I have known people who endured ten years of unhappiness




screw that.


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## Dixie Dawg (May 18, 2009)

MudDucker said:


> No, it is you who are wearing the glasses, because it is you who is the problem in the relationship and no matter how many times you start over with a new model spouse, you will still be a part of that relationship.  I am not surprised that you pick up quickly on the analogy of drugs to remove yourself from reality.  Again, I hope some day you find peace in your heart.




I have no glasses on.
And I don't do drugs, never have... so you can stuff that where the sun don't shine.

I'm always humored by men such as yourself who think they know it all, even when they don't know a person or a situation.  You make yourself out to look like an idiot.  Don't tell me about myself or my relationships when you don't know crap about either one.  Tend to your own garden, I'll tend to mine.


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## Huntinfool (May 18, 2009)

I love "bullhorn Christians".

Scream your guts out about what's wrong with the sinners walking by.  They'll just keep thinking you're a wacko and keep walking by.

Relationships, empathy, compassion....they're much quieter, but also much more effective.


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## WTM45 (May 18, 2009)

Madman said:


> Death shouldn't scare the Christian and here's the proof  --text.
> 
> 1Co 15:55  O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?



I am not saying anyone should be "scared" of it.  
I was referring to the ways out of a marriage.  Death being a big one.
Un-natural causes would not be an acceptable option over divorce.


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## gordon 2 (May 18, 2009)

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## Madman (May 19, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> I believe divorce is miles above death, especially if it involves murder or other un-natural causes.



As this thread appears to be winding down I wish to throw out the following.

In the west we have come to see a marriage as a contract and not as a covenant; however as Christians we should look to the Bible to define this sacrament.

Mt. 19:5  And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6  Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
7  They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8  He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9  And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.


Unfortunately we choose to the easy road, the path that is best for me not that which is best for my family nor society and least of all the path that God commands.  

The “laying eight” or the “bloody path” was walked by men of old to signify that they would rather die than to break their vow.

How sad that we as Christians no longer think Biblically but worldly, may the God of our salvation forgive us.


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## gordon 2 (May 19, 2009)

The smart elect wound it down a long time ago.


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## Madman (May 19, 2009)

gordon 2 said:


> The smart elect wound it down a long time ago.


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