# Deconversion



## atlashunter (Jan 4, 2011)

If you've never seen these videos, they are very good. I went through much the same process in terms of gradually seeing various christian concepts fall upon close investigation. Many of the same emotions too.

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## mtnwoman (Jan 4, 2011)

Pretty pictures, but I couldn't bring myself to open the video.  Lordy temptation never dies, we have to die to temptation.

I was converted and deconverted and barely made it back by the skin of my teeth before I was doa. Depression from being a young marine's widow, to living with and getting into drugs and alcohol(self medication ya know) with a rock n roll drummer that played all over the southeast. I've moved 56 times in my 60years(on my own since I was 33 with a child to raise)...running from the pain and demons. But I can't say it wasn't fun, it was a nice ride. But I was baptized and saved when I was 12 and God said nothing can snatch you out of the palm of my hand, and ya know 35 yrs later, God brought this little lost lamb to her knees and brought her back to the fold. He knew where she was all the time, even though she didn't even know she was lost..duh. God has proven himself so many times to me, no matter what I do,  I believe now, I just believe.

Just thought I'd check the place out.


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## fish hawk (Jan 4, 2011)

There you go again, up late trying to figure out the origins of the universe Check this out Atlas hunter its me with my coon dog,before I evolved into a man


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## atlashunter (Jan 4, 2011)

Mtnwoman I will never understand people who refuse to ask "could I be wrong?". If you are certain of your beliefs then why do you dare not watch the videos? As the man in the video asked himself and as I did, if you had to choose between truth or god what would you choose? If god really is true then you can have both with nothing to fear from questioning belief. But if god isn't true then you really are faced with that choice.


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## ambush80 (Jan 4, 2011)

fish hawk said:


> There you go again, up late trying to figure out the origins of the universe Check this out Atlas hunter its me with my coon dog,before I evolved into a man



Does that orangutan prefer the NIV or the KJV?


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## mtnwoman (Jan 4, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Mtnwoman I will never understand people who refuse to ask "could I be wrong?". If you are certain of your beliefs then why do you dare not watch the videos? As the man in the video asked himself and as I did, if you had to choose between truth or god what would you choose? If god really is true then you can have both with nothing to fear from questioning belief. But if god isn't true then you really are faced with that choice.



I've already been down plenty of those roads, I was searching them for over 30 years, but it all comes back to God....I guess basically I'm not interested in spending the energy searching for answers I already have. I'm not afraid for myself I'm afraid for others and arguing the  point that if you were once really saved that you will come full circle. I seek only Him, and rather spend my time and energy doing that.  And besides spirits that I do not want around me can enter thru many doorways.


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## mtnwoman (Jan 4, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> Does that orangutan prefer the NIV or the KJV?



NIV according to his siggy.


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## atlashunter (Jan 4, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> I guess basically I'm not interested in spending the energy searching for answers I already have.



Then this thread is not the place for you.


Were you a nonbeliever or were you a backsliding believer?


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## mtnwoman (Jan 4, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Then this thread is not the place for you.
> 
> 
> Were you a nonbeliever or were you a backsliding believer?



You're right, I was just visiting.

I thought I was a nonbeliever but then the Saviour came and got His lamb who didn't even know she was lost...so really I had backsliden, living deep in darkness. I had hidden from God and wanted no part of it.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jan 4, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Pretty pictures, but I couldn't bring myself to open the video.  Lordy temptation never dies, we have to die to temptation.
> 
> I was converted and deconverted and barely made it back by the skin of my teeth before I was doa. Depression from being a young marine's widow, to living with and getting into drugs and alcohol(self medication ya know) with a rock n roll drummer that played all over the southeast. I've moved 56 times in my 60years(on my own since I was 33 with a child to raise)...running from the pain and demons. But I can't say it wasn't fun, it was a nice ride. But I was baptized and saved when I was 12 and God said nothing can snatch you out of the palm of my hand, and ya know 35 yrs later, God brought this little lost lamb to her knees and brought her back to the fold. He knew where she was all the time, even though she didn't even know she was lost..duh. God has proven himself so many times to me, no matter what I do,  I believe now, I just believe.
> 
> Just thought I'd check the place out.


 Thanks for sharing your testimony


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## 1gr8bldr (Jan 4, 2011)

Hello Atlashunter, I have watched or should I say listened to 3/4 of what you posted. I may have time to finish tomorrow.  I wonder how many more have similar stories. I would love to see a poll. I have made an observation over time,  that atheist that spend time on sites like this, were once devout christians. I wonder what % would it would be.   Gotta get some rest now.


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## atlashunter (Jan 5, 2011)

I don't have numbers but I'm sure many atheists were believers at one time. His story really resonated with me. I'm also sure that there are plenty of believers who wrestle the same issues but many dare not go where it leads them. Fear is a very powerful thing.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jan 5, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> I don't have numbers but I'm sure many atheists were believers at one time. His story really resonated with me. I'm also sure that there are plenty of believers who wrestle the same issues but many dare not go where it leads them. Fear is a very powerful thing.


Me again, hope to get back to viewing but that will be later, after the family goes to bed. I don't like to get more than 7hrs so I stay up later. Your point that people are afraid, actually comes from an insecure position to start with. If one is confident in what he believes then there is no fear. If one is not confident, then he is afraid to have his beliefs challenged. The problem about doubt, if your a believer is that when someone doubts, you are essentially asking Jesus to do it all over again. He has already came once. He is coming back but He's not coming back to do it over again for those who doubt, he's coming back for those who believe. Context comes from the verse that says "you are crucifying him all over again". But, I do agree, lots of people question things. The point is that they should not stradle the fence but get off on one side or the other. Context from Rev "how I wish you were hot or cold"


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## 1gr8bldr (Jan 5, 2011)

Just finished, I was strugling to keep my attention there towards the end but If you would like to discuss anything, just point it out.Feel free to ask my thoughts about anything in particular. I would like to get that book about the seagul. Sounds interesting. At the conclusion of your journey away from faith, would you say that you were disapointed or let down actually wishing you had arrived on the other end?


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## atlashunter (Jan 6, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Just finished, I was strugling to keep my attention there towards the end but If you would like to discuss anything, just point it out.Feel free to ask my thoughts about anything in particular. I would like to get that book about the seagul. Sounds interesting. At the conclusion of your journey away from faith, would you say that you were disapointed or let down actually wishing you had arrived on the other end?



I experienced a wide range of emotions. It's really hard to describe. I think for me it was a more gradual process than for the guy in the video so it wasn't as extreme for me. By the time I reached the point where I realized I no longer believed I was past the point of putting up too much of a fight.

I've compared it to one of those 3d pictures made of dots that you stare at and stare at and you don't see anything but dots, then something clicks in your head and you can see the embedded image plain as day. It's like having your eyes opened and seeing something that was right in front of you all along but never could see. But once you do see it it seems so obvious and you wonder why it took so long to figure out. There was anger that I was fed what now seems like nonsense from early childhood. There is a sense of joy in the feeling that you finally had the courage to face questions and accept answers that you had previously rejected out of fear. The world makes more sense to me now than it did before. I know this probably sounds arrogant like I've got it all figured out but I don't feel that way at all. I know there is so much that I don't know. It's a sign of strength to say "I don't know" when that is the case. It may not make you feel as good as plugging that gap with something you wish but at least it is more honest.

There was a good deal of fear along the way but it gave way to acceptance. There was also fear of how family and friends would respond. I've lost a couple friends as a result and that is definitely a disappointment. Not sure if everyone in my family knows. Most of my family is pretty religious but it isn't something we talk about much so I think they must know.

There are definitely some disappointments. But I wouldn't change things because of that. I'd rather face and deal with a few disappointments than believe something that isn't true.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jan 6, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> I experienced a wide range of emotions. It's really hard to describe. I think for me it was a more gradual process than for the guy in the video so it wasn't as extreme for me. By the time I reached the point where I realized I no longer believed I was past the point of putting up too much of a fight.
> 
> I've compared it to one of those 3d pictures made of dots that you stare at and stare at and you don't see anything but dots, then something clicks in your head and you can see the embedded image plain as day. It's like having your eyes opened and seeing something that was right in front of you all along but never could see. But once you do see it it seems so obvious and you wonder why it took so long to figure out. There was anger that I was fed what now seems like nonsense from early childhood. There is a sense of joy in the feeling that you finally had the courage to face questions and accept answers that you had previously rejected out of fear. The world makes more sense to me now than it did before. I know this probably sounds arrogant like I've got it all figured out but I don't feel that way at all. I know there is so much that I don't know. It's a sign of strength to say "I don't know" when that is the case. It may not make you feel as good as plugging that gap with something you wish but at least it is more honest.
> 
> ...


 Have you read any of the books mentioned in the clips? --And was your process on your own or did you have influence, such as the professor? In this guys case, I think with or without the professor, he was heading there, might have taken a little longer. If my questions get to focused on you and not the clips then just say so. I'm an inquisitive person, I ponder over stuff, so don't be offended


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## atlashunter (Jan 6, 2011)

Haven't read any of those books and there was no professor figure for me. But many of the questions were the same. Is the bible the product of a divine being or man? Does it make good logical sense? Do the stories it tells square with what we know about our world and universe? Does prayer really work? What would a world with no (or a deistic)God be like? What would a world with a God as described in the bible be like?


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## Crubear (Jan 6, 2011)

I've asked the "Could I be wrong?" question - many times over my life while I looked and wandered here and there. And the answer came down to this.

1) People, on their own, are basically selfish and self oriented. 
2) People will, generally, do anything they think they can get away with.
3) Jesus was a real man, and even if you don't believe the miracles, taught a way of life that gives a way to overcome these short comings.
  - He taught self control
  - He taught to love and serve others
  - He taught that God is real
If I'm going to follow the example of any "Man", what could be a better example?

Since then I've asked the following question - "What if I'm still wrong?" The answer to that was even easier - So what if I am? 

I lead a life that is better because I try to live to a higher standard than I would otherwise. I try to make a positive difference in the lives of others by giving time, money, and help. I "try" not to be judgemental of others and accept them as they are. So if I'm wrong, and there is no God, then I'll die having done some good for others.

On the otherhand, if I'm not wrong and there is a God? I've got that answered too.


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## ambush80 (Jan 6, 2011)

Crubear said:


> I've asked the "Could I be wrong?" question - many times over my life while I looked and wandered here and there. And the answer came down to this.
> 
> 1) People, on their own, are basically selfish and self oriented.
> 2) People will, generally, do anything they think they can get away with.
> ...



Would you say that you are more moral or act more morally than an atheist or a Buddhist or a Wiccan ever could?  Did you watch the video about Morality?  It's compelling and short.


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## atlashunter (Jan 6, 2011)

Crubear said:


> I've asked the "Could I be wrong?" question - many times over my life while I looked and wandered here and there. And the answer came down to this.
> 
> 1) People, on their own, are basically selfish and self oriented.
> 2) People will, generally, do anything they think they can get away with.
> ...



It seems to me you're mixing things that have nothing to do with each other. Even if we assume the Jesus we think we know about really is an accurate depiction of the real Jesus, how does being a good person validate the claim that any particular God is real? It isn't necessary to believe in a supernatural big brother in order to want to live the best life you can, at least it isn't for me. I want to strive for the ideals you are striving for regardless of the answer to the question "Is there a God?". For me the truth claim that there is a God must stand or fall on it's own regardless of the morality of the person making the claim. I guess if believing in a God provides you with the motivation you need to be a good person and make this life count, to that extent your belief is a good thing for you. But it has no bearing on whether God is real or myth.

I'm also not the kind of person that would say "so what" if I'm wrong. For me, spending one's life believing something that isn't true matters, not just for the potential consequences that might result but for it's own sake. I readily acknowledge that I'm going to get some things wrong and there are many things I will never know, that no human can know. But using the tools I have at my disposal, as inadequate as they may be, to seek out the truth is for me a big part of striving to be the best person you can be and living the best life you can live.


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## Crubear (Jan 7, 2011)

I'm not mixing anything up. I was responding to your post on do "Believers" ever ask if they're wrong. Yes, I did.

The answers I've found don't validate anything for anyone else, beyond the impact they have in my life and how I live it. 

I have no answer for your quest to find absolute proof that God is real. What has given me that proof won't work for you. It appears your expectations are extremely high and limited in the level you want and what I have to offer won't work.

Being wrong is a condition of being human. I make mistakes, most of them I can fix, but they still happened and I learned from them. In the case of life decisions it really is a "So what?" for me. If I'm wrong in my beliefs I'll never know. Only two men ever came back from death and neither wrote or told what it was like or what they saw. And I don't have my belief system in order to avoid consequences, I have it because I do believe it's true. That living a true Christian life (in spite of my getting it wrong) doesn't make me a better person, but allows a loving God to show through my own weaknesses.

There's a problem with your comment " For me, spending one's life believing something that isn't true matters". If I'm right, you're spending your life believing something that's not true.


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## atlashunter (Jan 7, 2011)

You see the bar I set as extremely high, I see the bar you set as extremely low. If the standard you set to validate your belief also works to validate other gods or would still work even if there really was no god then you've set the bar too low IMO. What is fascinating is that you only set it that low for your god and not all of them. When it comes to other gods you set the bar at the same point I set it. Yes if you are right, I'm spending my life believing something that isn't true. Based on the answers to the earlier questions I don't believe you are right.


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## Crubear (Jan 10, 2011)

So, just to summarize... what I believe isn't right because you can't prove it - and what you believe is right because I can't disprove it?

Why don't I find that hard to believe?


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## atlashunter (Jan 10, 2011)

What you believe could be right but based on the evidence it isn't any more likely to be right than any other man made myth. Absent any evidence I'll take the same position on your myth that you take on all other myths.


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## ambush80 (Jan 10, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> What you believe could be right but based on the evidence it isn't any more likely to be right than any other man made myth. Absent any evidence I'll take the same position on your myth that you take on all other myths.



Why is this such a hard concept to understand?


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## atlashunter (Jan 11, 2011)

Here is the most recent addition to the video series.

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## atlashunter (Apr 6, 2011)

New addition to the series added in the first post.


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## BCPerry (Apr 7, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> What you believe could be right but based on the evidence it isn't any more likely to be right than any other man made myth. Absent any evidence I'll take the same position on your myth that you take on all other myths.



Hey Atlas, I have alot of respect for you. I truly do. I once was where you are right now. I truly thought the Bible was a bunch of made up stories and that this God character was a hoax. What proof is there that he really exists right? I wanted absolute proof. I didn't want anyone elses words, I wanted physical proof.

Then after a few things started happening in my life, I called my baby brother to talk. To make a log story short, he asked me if I knew what "faith " was. He explained that "faith" is having the belief in something without absolute physical proof of it. He told me that to believe in God, all I needed to do was believe, or have faith, in Genesis 1:1. If you can believe that one simple verse, the rest of the bible isn't that hard to believe. 

I can't imagine a world without God now. He has made my life so much better than what it was. I pray for you Atlas. I hope that someday you discover what we christians call the truth before it's to late.


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## atlashunter (Apr 7, 2011)

BC,

Two questions for you.

First if you accept a lie on faith how do you find and correct the mistake? And secondly why should anything much less a book that changed and evolved over time like the bible be accepted on faith? We don't have the original manuscripts of the bible but we do know from the copies that we do have that verses were added deleted and modified through the centuries. Does that strike you as a means a supreme being would rely on to deliver an important message to humanity? Or does it strike you as something men created?


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## stringmusic (Apr 7, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> BC,
> 
> Two questions for you.
> 
> First if you accept a lie on faith how do you find and correct the mistake? And secondly why should anything much less a book that changed and evolved over time like the bible be accepted on faith? *We don't have the original manuscripts of the bible *but we do know from the copies that we do have that verses were added deleted and modified through the centuries. Does that strike you as a means a supreme being would rely on to deliver an important message to humanity? Or does it strike you as something men created?



Have you _really_ researched this?


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## BCPerry (Apr 7, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> BC,
> 
> Two questions for you.
> 
> First if you accept a lie on faith how do you find and correct the mistake? And secondly why should anything much less a book that changed and evolved over time like the bible be accepted on faith? We don't have the original manuscripts of the bible but we do know from the copies that we do have that verses were added deleted and modified through the centuries. Does that strike you as a means a supreme being would rely on to deliver an important message to humanity? Or does it strike you as something men created?



How do you know it's a lie I'm accepting on faith? I think you are missing the point here, but faith is how I can accept it.

And I accept the bible on the same principle. Where the bible is concerned though, there are some changes and differences in the different versions, but for the most part, they all tell the same stories.


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## atlashunter (Apr 7, 2011)

BCPerry said:


> How do you know it's a lie I'm accepting on faith? I think you are missing the point here, but faith is how I can accept it.



I don't know but I have very good reasons to think it is a lie. But leaving that aside lets say I have no idea if it is true or not. The question remains, how do YOU determine it's not true by faith? Do you accept all claims you hear on faith until they are proven otherwise false? Suppose a muslim tells you that you should accept the koran as true based on faith, what would your response be? Would you do it? If not, why not? How could the muslim figure out that what he is believing based on faith isn't true? It seems to me that you and the muslim hold no stronger position than the other. You've decided to believe a text not by reason or evidence but by faith.




BCPerry said:


> And I accept the bible on the same principle. Where the bible is concerned though, there are some changes and differences in the different versions, but for the most part, they all tell the same stories.



That simply isn't true. There are fundamental questions about who Jesus was, how salvation is obtained, etc that were hotly debated in the early church and even among the canonized gospels there are significant differences in early manuscripts. If a story was not in the original gospel but added centuries later by a scribe which are you going to hold as the word of God? The older version or the new? Again, do you really believe that this is the best an all powerful all knowing being could do to transmit a message to us? Really?


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## atlashunter (Apr 7, 2011)

The point is BC, if you really care about whether what you believe is true then you need to have some means to determine whether or not your beliefs are true. Faith doesn't provide that.


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## stringmusic (Apr 7, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> I don't know but I have very good reasons to think it is a lie. But leaving that aside lets say I have no idea if it is true or not. The question remains, how do YOU determine it's not true by faith? Do you accept all claims you hear on faith until they are proven otherwise false?* Suppose a muslim tells you that you should accept the koran as true based on faith, *what would your response be? Would you do it? If not, why not? How could the muslim figure out that what he is believing based on faith isn't true? It seems to me that you and the muslim hold no stronger position than the other. You've decided to believe a text not by reason or evidence but by faith.



I would tell the Muslim that I could not speak his language, and he would tell me that I cannot understand the Koran. Then I would ask him, how can the supposed prophet of the world be restricted to one language? I would also ask him has he critiqued the Koran himself, and he would tell me no, because if he did, he would not be alive right now.

Did you catch post #30?


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## atlashunter (Apr 7, 2011)

What languages do you think the prophets of the bible including Jesus spoke? Am I understanding correctly that you would reject the koran because it wasn't handed down in your native language?

To post 30, yes I have and continue to.


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## stringmusic (Apr 7, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I would tell the Muslim that I could not speak his language, and he would tell me that I cannot understand the Koran. Then I would ask him, how can the supposed prophet of the world be restricted to one language? I would also ask him has he critiqued the Koran himself, and he would tell me no, because if he did, he would not be alive right now.
> 
> Did you catch post #30?


That what I or you would be told.



atlashunter said:


> What languages do you think the prophets of the bible including Jesus spoke? Am I understanding correctly that you would reject the koran because it wasn't handed down in your native language?
> 
> To post 30, yes I have and continue to.


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## atlashunter (Apr 7, 2011)

That would depend on who you ask. I'm sure you're aware of english translations. But assuming a message from the creator of the universe could only be understood in the original language which it was given in, it would be the same for any religious text including the bible. You either learn the original language or you risk rejecting a message from your creator.

As for doing a critical analysis of the text if you begin with the faith based assumption that the text is the inerrant word of God (not that any Christian would ever do that right?) then what room is there for criticism? Any errors you might find it would be said are not errors with the text but the result of your own human imperfection. See the comments made by gtparts on the purpose of this forum thread.


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## stringmusic (Apr 7, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> That would depend on who you ask. I'm sure you're aware of english translations. But assuming a message from the creator of the universe could only be understood in the original language which it was given in, it would be the same for any religious text including the bible. You either learn the original language or you risk rejecting a message from your creator.


Unlike the Koran, the essential doctrines of the Bible can be found in any language and allows itself to be critiqued in every language. The Koran is only perfect in the original language according to people of the Islamic faith, If you or I do not understand the Koran or have a problem with something that it says, a Muslim will tell us, it because we cannot speak the language. My faith and understanding is not in a book alone, it is also with a personal God.



> As for doing a critical analysis of the text if you begin with the faith based assumption that the text is the inerrant word of God (not that any Christian would ever do that right?) then what room is there for criticism? Any errors you might find it would be said are not errors with the text but the result of your own human imperfection. See the comments made by gtparts on the purpose of this forum thread.


There are unanswered questions about the Bible, it is what it is. I obviously have faith, and I let things that I dont know the answers to be just that... I dont know, I do this because of other things that I believe to be the truth about the Bible,Jesus, and God.


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## atlashunter (Apr 7, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Unlike the Koran, the essential doctrines of the Bible can be found in any language and allows itself to be critiqued in every language.



You can get the essential doctrines of islam from a translated koran just as with the bible. There are many translations of the koran and many muslims who don't speak arabic. The translational issues you run into exist for both texts. If anything the situation is worse for the bible because of the greater diversity of doctrines in the early church and because unlike translating from the original arabic to the second language many bibles including the KJV were based on translations from greek to latin to english from copies that had been changed for centuries. I'll ask you again, do you really believe this is how an all powerful all knowing being would send such an important message to humanity? In a way that left so much room for error and confusion and took so long to spread that there are still people 2,000 years later that have never heard about it? Either your God is incredibly lazy and incompetent, or doesn't really care much about getting the message out, or all of this grew out of myths and stories just like every other religion.

So yes you can get the essential doctrines of the koran and take it on faith just as easily as you can with the bible. Had you been born in the middle east that is likely what you would be doing.





stringmusic said:


> The Koran is only perfect in the original language according to people of the Islamic faith, If you or I do not understand the Koran or have a problem with something that it says, a Muslim will tell us, it because we cannot speak the language.



Any time you point out things that don't make sense or contradictions in someone's religion they are going to try to make it your fault. It happens on this forum all the time.


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## BCPerry (Apr 12, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> The point is BC, if you really care about whether what you believe is true then you need to have some means to determine whether or not your beliefs are true. Faith doesn't provide that.



Hey Atlas. Sorry for taking so long to respond. Been real busy. Anyway, I think you were missing my point, not to infer that you were inept or something. My point about faith is that by having faith in the bible and it's teachings, that's how I can believe the way I do. In any religion, you have to have some sort of Faith to believe it. I know you don't. I know you believe that you have to have physical, put your hands on it, proof. But because of my Faith, I don't need the physical proof you do.


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## Bobby Vanderburg (Apr 25, 2011)

All dead atheist believe in God.


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## bullethead (Apr 25, 2011)

How would anyone know?


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## atlashunter (Apr 25, 2011)

Bobby Vanderburg said:


> All dead atheist believe in God.



Yep, and his name is FSM...


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## respro (Apr 25, 2011)

I'm going to pray for all those that choose to reject Jesus. Come up with all the cute videos, books and literature that you can. You work so hard to do something that is impossible. You can't prove that Jesus is not the Savior. The Bible can. Try to refute all the fulfilled prophecies. No day is promised to us. Any  of us can be gone tomorrow. I shudder to think of how much comfort a person is going to get from YouTube videos and other so   called information in Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----. Truth is that we are all sinners and need a Savior and forgiveness. God wants us to come to Him. He wants to forgive is.  He wants us to have a fulfilled life.  Stop this foolishness and repent. You cannot afford to do otherwise. Please, read the Bible and ask God to reveal His will to you.


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## atlashunter (Apr 26, 2011)

respro, pray for yourself that your mind not continue being governed by fear. Until you can manage to reach that point you're not going to understand how others can live free of that fear.  It's a shame that you have been brought to believe people will burn forever for not believing what you believe.


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## JFS (Apr 26, 2011)

respro said:


> God wants us to come to Him. He wants to forgive is.  He wants us to have a fulfilled life...... Please, read the Bible and ask God to reveal His will to you.



Can only speak for myself but I'm pretty sure many here have done the same-  I have read the Bible, been to church, even been on mission trips, and there is much to commend the community and fellowship of many congregations.  But having reviewed the evidence, there is no way I can conclude that there is an omnipotent god who cares about me and it has chosen the Bible as the medium through which my eternal well being is to be moderated.   

I'm sitting here having breakfast by myself.  God has an open invitation to stop by if he/she/it really does care.  But the proposition that a loving god endowed us with intelligence and then would condemn us to he11 for using it seems less likely than at least a dozen other possibilities (and no I'm not persuaded by Pascal's wager).


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## Six million dollar ham (Apr 26, 2011)

respro said:


> I'm going to pray for all those that choose to reject Jesus. Come up with all the cute videos, books and literature that you can. You work so hard to do something that is impossible. You can't prove that Jesus is not the Savior. The Bible can. Try to refute all the fulfilled prophecies. No day is promised to us. Any  of us can be gone tomorrow. I shudder to think of how much comfort a person is going to get from YouTube videos and other so   called information in Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----. Truth is that we are all sinners and need a Savior and forgiveness. God wants us to come to Him. He wants to forgive is.  He wants us to have a fulfilled life.  Stop this foolishness and repent. You cannot afford to do otherwise. Please, read the Bible and ask God to reveal His will to you.



Save it.


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## bullethead (Apr 26, 2011)

respro said:


> You can't prove that Jesus is not the Savior. The Bible can.



Guys I have to say that on this one he is right. I agree 100% that The Bible can prove that Jesus is not the Savior.


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## respro (Apr 26, 2011)

Good one bullethead! My bad, I meant to say that the Bible can prove that Jesus is the Savior.


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## atlashunter (Apr 26, 2011)

respro said:


> Good one bullethead! My bad, I meant to say that the Bible can prove that Jesus is the Savior.



Don't ya hate when you're caught accidentally telling the truth?


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## bullethead (Apr 26, 2011)

respro said:


> Good one bullethead! My bad, I meant to say that the Bible can prove that Jesus is the Savior.



For those that believe in the Bible, you might be right. For those that have read the Bible and do not think it is any source for enlightenment or spiritual truth, then you will have to come up with some other source.


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## respro (Apr 26, 2011)

you guys seem like you have this all nailed down.  Let me ask a question. Do.you think you are a good person?


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## bullethead (Apr 26, 2011)

When I die all I can hope for is for my family and friends to pass on stories of good memories with me. I hope that I made a positive impact in their lives. If I live on, it will be through them.

Good? What are the guidelines for good?


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## dexrusjak (Apr 29, 2011)

respro said:


> you guys seem like you have this all nailed down.  Let me ask a question. Do you think you are a good person?



Yes.


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## atlashunter (Jul 20, 2017)

Bump for j_seph who wanted my deconversion story.

I didn't really go into detail in the original post but that video series always comes to mind because there were many similarities for me. I was raised in Assembly of God and later Pentecostal and evangelical churches. My father, grandfather, and great grandfather were all pastors in the Assembly of God. My great grandfather helped get the Assembly of God established in New Mexico many years ago. Like the guy in that video series I can also remember participating in Royal Rangers from a very young age although it was more sporadic for me. The first time I gave my life to Jesus I was about 5 and it was an alter call in my grandfathers church. I remember him leading me in the sinners prayer and asking Jesus into my heart. I was very young but sincere and took it seriously. As I got older and learned more I did have doubts about some things like the story of Noah's ark but I still believed. Going into my teen years more questions came up. Like what happened to all the people who lived and died in the last 2,000 years that never heard the gospel? Without Jesus they are doomed and Jesus told us to go out and make disciples and spread the gospel so people could be saved. Didn't seem like those people got a fair shake. I remember asking that question when I was about 14 in a bible study while visiting my grandfather. Wasn't trying to be a facetious teenager. Just seemed like a good question to me. Around 14 or 15 I visited my dad one summer. My parents had long since divorced. My dad was attending Christ for the Nations in Dallas. I went through the same thing as the guy in this video of rededicating myself as a christian at a service there. There was a lot going on there throughout that summer and I really got into it heavy. My faith was probably at it's strongest point ever and I did have some experiences there that even further convinced me. That stuck with me for many years even after doubts from other sources became stronger.

The video that shows the belief in god as having many different components held true for me and they were pretty much the same for me. Prayer, morality, other testimonies, creation, the bible, etc. As an adult I never really was into church very heavy. I didn't live a christian life so I didn't consider myself a christian but I did still believe the bible was god's word. 

How does one's mind change on matters of this nature? I think it's usually a gradual process. At least it was for me. Over time as I learned more and thought more about those different pillars supporting my belief in god they one by one broke down. The effectiveness of prayer, the historicity of the bible, the morality of the assertions made by christianity, and so on. They just didn't hold up under scrutiny. And as I talked about earlier in this thread even from childhood I wanted to know what was true. I was open to the possibility that I was wrong. That the things I was taught were wrong. I understand why people want to believe. I understand how it can be comforting at times. But for me what has always mattered most was whether or not it was true. I'd rather face an uncomfortable reality head on and conform my mind to it than cling to a delusion because it makes me feel better. That's just a healthier way to go through life in my opinion.

I also remember going from believer to doubter to agnostic and finally to atheist. Actually we are all agnostics. Some just don't have the honesty to admit it. Once I realized that and once I got over the fear of burning forever I was able to accept it and take that next step to acknowledging I no longer believed.


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## bullethead (Jul 21, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> Bump for j_seph who wanted my deconversion story.
> 
> I didn't really go into detail in the original post but that video series always comes to mind because there were many similarities for me. I was raised in Assembly of God and later Pentecostal and evangelical churches. My father, grandfather, and great grandfather were all pastors in the Assembly of God. My great grandfather helped get the Assembly of God established in New Mexico many years ago. Like the guy in that video series I can also remember participating in Royal Rangers from a very young age although it was more sporadic for me. The first time I gave my life to Jesus I was about 5 and it was an alter call in my grandfathers church. I remember him leading me in the sinners prayer and asking Jesus into my heart. I was very young but sincere and took it seriously. As I got older and learned more I did have doubts about some things like the story of Noah's ark but I still believed. Going into my teen years more questions came up. Like what happened to all the people who lived and died in the last 2,000 years that never heard the gospel? Without Jesus they are doomed and Jesus told us to go out and make disciples and spread the gospel so people could be saved. Didn't seem like those people got a fair shake. I remember asking that question when I was about 14 in a bible study while visiting my grandfather. Wasn't trying to be a facetious teenager. Just seemed like a good question to me. Around 14 or 15 I visited my dad one summer. My parents had long since divorced. My dad was attending Christ for the Nations in Dallas. I went through the same thing as the guy in this video of rededicating myself as a christian at a service there. There was a lot going on there throughout that summer and I really got into it heavy. My faith was probably at it's strongest point ever and I did have some experiences there that even further convinced me. That stuck with me for many years even after doubts from other sources became stronger.
> 
> ...


Many very similar thoughts as I had along the way.
Gradual deconversion is accurate. The more I wanted to know about "my" religion the less I found it to be as advertised on the surface.  I wanted to know all that I could about my saviour.  I know too much now.


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## atlashunter (Jul 21, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Many very similar thoughts as I had along the way.
> Gradual deconversion is accurate. The more I wanted to know about "my" religion the less I found it to be as advertised on the surface.  I wanted to know all that I could about my saviour.  I know too much now.



I watched that video series again last night. I remember asking many of the same questions. If truth and god are at odds which do you choose? Not even saying they were at that time but just asking the question "if". For me the answer was a no brainer. God is subject to truth and not the other way around. That allowed me to really be open to questioning. The part where he ended up with a long list of problems with his faith that he had to do mental gymnastics to explain but that were easily explained if you allowed for the possibility god didn't exist was also similar for me. Once you seriously allow for that possibility it's like a shock to the mind. Things fall into place and make sense that didn't before. It can also evoke an emotional response although I didn't go through what he did in that regard.

The other part that made a lot of sense to me that I had forgot about was where he talks about simulacrum.


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## WaltL1 (Jul 21, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Many very similar thoughts as I had along the way.
> Gradual deconversion is accurate. The more I wanted to know about "my" religion the less I found it to be as advertised on the surface.  I wanted to know all that I could about my saviour.  I know too much now.





> Many very similar thoughts as I had along the way.


Same here.
Maybe a bit different for me though as it was sort of a 2 stage deconversion. Short version -
First stage was the rejection of Christianity/organized religion. That was the easier part. A study of history took care of that. 
But still believed in "God".
Second stage was the realization, or maybe acceptance is a better word, that everything I thought I knew about God came from organized religion.
That started the quest to learn about or confirm this god's existence outside the parameters of organized religion. I figured surely "God" could be found outside organized religion.
Nuthin, nada, zilch, zero.
So here I sit. I label myself as Agnostic as I'm open to the possibility of a god but I'm not sure if there is a whole lot of difference between Agnostic or Atheist other than a "technicality".


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## ambush80 (Jul 21, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Same here.
> Maybe a bit different for me though as it was sort of a 2 stage deconversion. Short version -
> First stage was the rejection of Christianity/organized religion. That was the easier part. A study of history took care of that.
> But still believed in "God".
> ...




You don't believe in unicorns because there's no proof of them.  You might maintain that they could exist in some far away galaxy, but if someone asks you if you believe in unicorns and you answer "no" then you are an A-unicornist.


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## WaltL1 (Jul 21, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> You don't believe in unicorns because there's no proof of them.  You might maintain that they could exist in some far away galaxy, but if someone asks you if you believe in unicorns and you answer "no" then you are an A-unicornist.


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## WaltL1 (Jul 22, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> You don't believe in unicorns because there's no proof of them.  You might maintain that they could exist in some far away galaxy, but if someone asks you if you believe in unicorns and you answer "no" then you are an A-unicornist.


But yes I get your point and have no honest rebuttal. 
Sometimes I think choosing Agnostic over Atheist is really just some sort of a psychological insurance policy.
Haven't decided yet.


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## Israel (Jul 24, 2017)

But the Pharisees and their scribes complained to Jesus’ disciples, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?” Jesus answered, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”…

For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

What is obviously not said is "I have come to make decent men better" or "good men the best they can be" or even "that men might profess a belief in God". Lost, sick...even to death.

Of course this would make no sense to those thinking themselves..._well and whole._ Or in any way _better men._

The weak, the stumbling, the blind, the decrepit; only to such does Jesus offer hope and forgiveness. To those "who know not what they do".


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## atlashunter (Jul 24, 2017)

Reminds me of Hitchens closing remarks in his debate with William Dembski. Some see the offer as a gift. Others see it as a poisoned chalice.


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## Israel (Jul 24, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> Reminds me of Hitchens closing remarks in his debate with William Dembski. Some see the offer as a gift. Others see it as a poisoned chalice.



I would have to agree in that assessment of men's seeing. And so the nature of what is given is found often in dispute between those two men. One finds it all to health. One despises it.


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## atlashunter (Jul 24, 2017)

Israel said:


> I would have to agree in that assessment of men's seeing. And so the nature of what is given is found often in dispute between those two men. One finds it all to health. One despises it.



Of course the same can be said of all religions. The followers think it gives them a healthier life but to others not so much.


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## gordon 2 (Jul 24, 2017)

Israel said:


> But the Pharisees and their scribes complained to Jesus’ disciples, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?” Jesus answered, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”…
> 
> For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
> 
> ...




What is lost and what is gained seems to be determined by comforts with a law giver be it man or of a Spirit above.

The moral assertions of each distasteful to the other.


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## Israel (Jul 24, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> Of course the same can be said of all religions. The followers think it gives them a healthier life but to others not so much.



If one were recommending christianity, this would be so.

Look into Jesus Christ.


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## atlashunter (Jul 24, 2017)

Israel said:


> If one were recommending christianity, this would be so.
> 
> Look into Jesus Christ.



Been there and done that. Apparently you haven't read this thread. And you can fill in that blank with any other religion. Everybody thinks their religion is something special but it's not.


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## WaltL1 (Jul 24, 2017)

Israel said:


> But the Pharisees and their scribes complained to Jesus’ disciples, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?” Jesus answered, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”…
> 
> For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
> 
> ...





> But the Pharisees and their scribes complained to Jesus’ disciples, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?” Jesus answered, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”…


Hey!  Maybe that explains why A/As don't get that 
"***** of the heart" 
Funny right? Maybe not.......


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 24, 2017)

I find myself bored, so I will comment to spur conversation. I observed over time, that every religion and every denomination believed themselves to be right and everyone else wrong. One then realizes that only 1 group could be right, and everyone else wrong. So I concluded that it was highly likely that I was wrong. So i set forth to try to deprogram myself of all my preconceived notions, and all the traditions that I harbored. It was a 15 year journey. My basic line of thought was beliefs within Christianity and what does the bible actually say since it was believed to be the written basis of the belief. I did not spend much thought as to whether I believed in the basic unembellished story of Jesus, I assume this as true. This study led me in stages through many issues. I found it very hard to deprogram. Conversing with the resident Atheist here was a good source to help me as many times I was blindsided as to my remaining preconceived ideas that I thought I had eliminated. I have observed how these guys don't harbor these unsupported ideas and often point them out only to argue with someone who can't see it as so. Those who point out their beliefs as fact, although it is a belief. I admit, a slippery slope of picking and choosing what I believe from the bible. However, we all decide what we believe, based on our own intellect, study or experiences. How can we not respect someone's right to believe as they have determined. We all tend to "find" that which we are looking for. I believe it is by faith, and proof will never exist, so I find it futile to try to convince anyone to believe as I do.


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## atlashunter (Jul 24, 2017)

1gr8bldr said:


> I find myself bored, so I will comment to spur conversation. I observed over time, that every religion and every denomination believed themselves to be right and everyone else wrong. One then realizes that only 1 group could be right, and everyone else wrong. So I concluded that it was highly likely that I was wrong. So i set forth to try to deprogram myself of all my preconceived notions, and all the traditions that I harbored. It was a 15 year journey. My basic line of thought was beliefs within Christianity and what does the bible actually say since it was believed to be the written basis of the belief. I did not spend much thought as to whether I believed in the basic unembellished story of Jesus, I assume this as true. This study led me in stages through many issues. I found it very hard to deprogram. Conversing with the resident Atheist here was a good source to help me as many times I was blindsided as to my remaining preconceived ideas that I thought I had eliminated. I have observed how these guys don't harbor these unsupported ideas and often point them out only to argue with someone who can't see it as so. Those who point out their beliefs as fact, although it is a belief. I admit, a slippery slope of picking and choosing what I believe from the bible. However, we all decide what we believe, based on our own intellect, study or experiences. How can we not respect someone's right to believe as they have determined. We all tend to "find" that which we are looking for. I believe it is by faith, and proof will never exist, so I find it futile to try to convince anyone to believe as I do.



How have your views evolved in the last few years?


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## WaltL1 (Jul 24, 2017)

1gr8bldr said:


> I find myself bored, so I will comment to spur conversation. I observed over time, that every religion and every denomination believed themselves to be right and everyone else wrong. One then realizes that only 1 group could be right, and everyone else wrong. So I concluded that it was highly likely that I was wrong. So i set forth to try to deprogram myself of all my preconceived notions, and all the traditions that I harbored. It was a 15 year journey. My basic line of thought was beliefs within Christianity and what does the bible actually say since it was believed to be the written basis of the belief. I did not spend much thought as to whether I believed in the basic unembellished story of Jesus, I assume this as true. This study led me in stages through many issues. I found it very hard to deprogram. Conversing with the resident Atheist here was a good source to help me as many times I was blindsided as to my remaining preconceived ideas that I thought I had eliminated. I have observed how these guys don't harbor these unsupported ideas and often point them out only to argue with someone who can't see it as so. Those who point out their beliefs as fact, although it is a belief. I admit, a slippery slope of picking and choosing what I believe from the bible. However, we all decide what we believe, based on our own intellect, study or experiences. How can we not respect someone's right to believe as they have determined. We all tend to "find" that which we are looking for. I believe it is by faith, and proof will never exist, so I find it futile to try to convince anyone to believe as I do.





> One then realizes that only 1 group could be right, and everyone else wrong.


Or they are all wrong.


> I was blindsided as to my remaining preconceived ideas that I thought I had eliminated


You used the word "eliminate" and I just wanted to comment that in my opinion I'm not sure that's even possible. Religious indoctrination is like Super Glue.
Sure you might be able to "put it in its place," but its there.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 24, 2017)

all my life, most every time the doors opened. At about 29, I somehow decided I was interested in reading the bible. It wouldd seem that since I claim to be Christian, that I would know what was in there. All of it. I remember the first explanation from the preacher of the Holy Spirit being a coequal 3rd person of the Trinity. I then realized that "doctrines" exist. up until about that time, I was naive of religion. I began to read it over and over, once through with a particular interest of a topic, again with another topic in mind, over and over until I knew it like the back of my hand, able to finish any sentence, and tell you what portion or side of the page it came from. LOL, I would only read one particular copyright because it content stayed in the exact location on a page. It helped me find stuff. I would say I read the OT 300+ with the exceptions of Pslams which I read less and the NT over a 1000 times. I never watched TV, the bible was my evening wind down. I did not read it as a devotional. I would even read at night as I fished for trophy catfish. Funny thing, I am not at all a book worm, yet read all the time. I hate reading, but I was intrigued, by the content, by the misrepresentation of verses, by the hardcore baptist teachings that were not there. After awhile what becomes learned is not only what's in there but more important, what is not. Those who have read it as a devotional have no idea what is in there. And can be lead to believe most anything. Eventually, I began to see that the Trinity was a foreign concept to the bible. Funny how Paul would spend so much time trying to clarify something simple as food sacrificed to idols yet never give an explanation as to how there extremely monotheistic heritage was actually in three parts.  About this time, I was struggling, thinking surely I was wrong. How could all the circles I have ever known be wrong. I was a deacon in the church and privately gave up my church teaching because I could no longer teach what I did not believe, I could not steer around it and the Trinity type songs bothered me. There were no likeminded believers in my area. Also through this time period, I began to get a dislike for "religion". Everything was done for men to see. Every good deed was exploited. Total disgust that I could not overcome. So I had to leave the church and did it quietly without rocking the boat. LOL, i'm still in the closet about the Trinity. I exhausted this study, spent 2 years on CARM as Dr. Context, debating within the Trinity sub forum. Just as the concept of he11 was translated into the text, so was the concept of the trinity. I got pretty good with the greek language looking to see how they changed it. Example, the word they use as master is the same word they use as LORD. They just apply it as they wish to control the narrative. I also found extreme interest in  the errors of the bible. How they got there, the "doublets", major contradictions, the players, etc. Of all this, my faith has not waivered. Sometimes i wonder where it comes from, not having doubt. It's almost as if it's ingrained in me, as if I don't have a choice. No proof, just something. Weird. I know. Weirder to me than is is to you probably. I believe in a simple version of a bible that I think is embellished. That God did not write it, more like men wanted to record what they believed before it got anymore screwed up. Sorry this may seem preachy. I don't mean it to be. Just trying to show what I believe. I believe Jesus had faith that he would be raised from the dead, based on the teachings handed down. Throughout history, those God called to serve the people actually used their position to have the people serve themselves, as gods on earth. Jesus, however, served the people by being obedient to the cross instead of skipping town. Having faith that God would raise him from the dead. Reborn, into the position that Adam fell from.  So as you can expect, much is left out of this journey, much internal conflict, fellowship lost, etc. I have learned to keep my religion to myself except on this religious forum. I figure anyone coming here approaches it with an apologetic mindset so I don't feel as though I can't post. However, I have refrained from the upper Christian forums because it is not wholly apologetic in nature, and they should have a place to share. I have noticed you guys stay away as well of which I much respect.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 24, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Or they are all wrong.
> 
> You used the word "eliminate" and I just wanted to comment that in my opinion I'm not sure that's even possible. Religious indoctrination is like Super Glue.
> Sure you might be able to "put it in its place," but its there.


Your right, I was careful with my wording , I think I recall "only one could be right" which implies they all may be


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## atlashunter (Jul 24, 2017)

1gr8bldr I'm amazed you still have faith through all of that.


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## bullethead (Jul 24, 2017)

1gr8bldr said:


> all my life, most every time the doors opened. At about 29, I somehow decided I was interested in reading the bible. It wouldd seem that since I claim to be Christian, that I would know what was in there. All of it. I remember the first explanation from the preacher of the Holy Spirit being a coequal 3rd person of the Trinity. I then realized that "doctrines" exist. up until about that time, I was naive of religion. I began to read it over and over, once through with a particular interest of a topic, again with another topic in mind, over and over until I knew it like the back of my hand, able to finish any sentence, and tell you what portion or side of the page it came from. LOL, I would only read one particular copyright because it content stayed in the exact location on a page. It helped me find stuff. I would say I read the OT 300+ with the exceptions of Pslams which I read less and the NT over a 1000 times. I never watched TV, the bible was my evening wind down. I did not read it as a devotional. I would even read at night as I fished for trophy catfish. Funny thing, I am not at all a book worm, yet read all the time. I hate reading, but I was intrigued, by the content, by the misrepresentation of verses, by the hardcore baptist teachings that were not there. After awhile what becomes learned is not only what's in there but more important, what is not. Those who have read it as a devotional have no idea what is in there. And can be lead to believe most anything. Eventually, I began to see that the Trinity was a foreign concept to the bible. Funny how Paul would spend so much time trying to clarify something simple as food sacrificed to idols yet never give an explanation as to how there extremely monotheistic heritage was actually in three parts.  About this time, I was struggling, thinking surely I was wrong. How could all the circles I have ever known be wrong. I was a deacon in the church and privately gave up my church teaching because I could no longer teach what I did not believe, I could not steer around it and the Trinity type songs bothered me. There were no likeminded believers in my area. Also through this time period, I began to get a dislike for "religion". Everything was done for men to see. Every good deed was exploited. Total disgust that I could not overcome. So I had to leave the church and did it quietly without rocking the boat. LOL, i'm still in the closet about the Trinity. I exhausted this study, spent 2 years on CARM as Dr. Context, debating within the Trinity sub forum. Just as the concept of he11 was translated into the text, so was the concept of the trinity. I got pretty good with the greek language looking to see how they changed it. Example, the word they use as master is the same word they use as LORD. They just apply it as they wish to control the narrative. I also found extreme interest in  the errors of the bible. How they got there, the "doublets", major contradictions, the players, etc. Of all this, my faith has not waivered. Sometimes i wonder where it comes from, not having doubt. It's almost as if it's ingrained in me, as if I don't have a choice. No proof, just something. Weird. I know. Weirder to me than is is to you probably. I believe in a simple version of a bible that I think is embellished. That God did not write it, more like men wanted to record what they believed before it got anymore screwed up. Sorry this may seem preachy. I don't mean it to be. Just trying to show what I believe. I believe Jesus had faith that he would be raised from the dead, based on the teachings handed down. Throughout history, those God called to serve the people actually used their position to have the people serve themselves, as gods on earth. Jesus, however, served the people by being obedient to the cross instead of skipping town. Having faith that God would raise him from the dead. Reborn, into the position that Adam fell from.  So as you can expect, much is left out of this journey, much internal conflict, fellowship lost, etc. I have learned to keep my religion to myself except on this religious forum. I figure anyone coming here approaches it with an apologetic mindset so I don't feel as though I can't post. However, I have refrained from the upper Christian forums because it is not wholly apologetic in nature, and they should have a place to share. I have noticed you guys stay away as well of which I much respect.



Always honest.
Aleays genuine.
Always appreciated.


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## WaltL1 (Jul 24, 2017)

1gr8bldr said:


> all my life, most every time the doors opened. At about 29, I somehow decided I was interested in reading the bible. It wouldd seem that since I claim to be Christian, that I would know what was in there. All of it. I remember the first explanation from the preacher of the Holy Spirit being a coequal 3rd person of the Trinity. I then realized that "doctrines" exist. up until about that time, I was naive of religion. I began to read it over and over, once through with a particular interest of a topic, again with another topic in mind, over and over until I knew it like the back of my hand, able to finish any sentence, and tell you what portion or side of the page it came from. LOL, I would only read one particular copyright because it content stayed in the exact location on a page. It helped me find stuff. I would say I read the OT 300+ with the exceptions of Pslams which I read less and the NT over a 1000 times. I never watched TV, the bible was my evening wind down. I did not read it as a devotional. I would even read at night as I fished for trophy catfish. Funny thing, I am not at all a book worm, yet read all the time. I hate reading, but I was intrigued, by the content, by the misrepresentation of verses, by the hardcore baptist teachings that were not there. After awhile what becomes learned is not only what's in there but more important, what is not. Those who have read it as a devotional have no idea what is in there. And can be lead to believe most anything. Eventually, I began to see that the Trinity was a foreign concept to the bible. Funny how Paul would spend so much time trying to clarify something simple as food sacrificed to idols yet never give an explanation as to how there extremely monotheistic heritage was actually in three parts.  About this time, I was struggling, thinking surely I was wrong. How could all the circles I have ever known be wrong. I was a deacon in the church and privately gave up my church teaching because I could no longer teach what I did not believe, I could not steer around it and the Trinity type songs bothered me. There were no likeminded believers in my area. Also through this time period, I began to get a dislike for "religion". Everything was done for men to see. Every good deed was exploited. Total disgust that I could not overcome. So I had to leave the church and did it quietly without rocking the boat. LOL, i'm still in the closet about the Trinity. I exhausted this study, spent 2 years on CARM as Dr. Context, debating within the Trinity sub forum. Just as the concept of he11 was translated into the text, so was the concept of the trinity. I got pretty good with the greek language looking to see how they changed it. Example, the word they use as master is the same word they use as LORD. They just apply it as they wish to control the narrative. I also found extreme interest in  the errors of the bible. How they got there, the "doublets", major contradictions, the players, etc. Of all this, my faith has not waivered. Sometimes i wonder where it comes from, not having doubt. It's almost as if it's ingrained in me, as if I don't have a choice. No proof, just something. Weird. I know. Weirder to me than is is to you probably. I believe in a simple version of a bible that I think is embellished. That God did not write it, more like men wanted to record what they believed before it got anymore screwed up. Sorry this may seem preachy. I don't mean it to be. Just trying to show what I believe. I believe Jesus had faith that he would be raised from the dead, based on the teachings handed down. Throughout history, those God called to serve the people actually used their position to have the people serve themselves, as gods on earth. Jesus, however, served the people by being obedient to the cross instead of skipping town. Having faith that God would raise him from the dead. Reborn, into the position that Adam fell from.  So as you can expect, much is left out of this journey, much internal conflict, fellowship lost, etc. I have learned to keep my religion to myself except on this religious forum. I figure anyone coming here approaches it with an apologetic mindset so I don't feel as though I can't post. However, I have refrained from the upper Christian forums because it is not wholly apologetic in nature, and they should have a place to share. I have noticed you guys stay away as well of which I much respect.


VERY interesting.
I do have some questions though and no I'm not going to debate your answer. I'm just wondering -


> I believe in a simple version of a bible


Considering your mentioned issues with the Bible coupled with your view of man's involvement in the Bible/religion....
what purpose is the Bible, in any form, serving you?
Did you ever consider you were a theist as opposed to a Christian? Or it was the Christian God specifically that was "always there".


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## Mexican Squealer (Jul 24, 2017)

that fire is gonna be hot....good thing you were "smart" enough not to believe.


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## WaltL1 (Jul 24, 2017)

Mexican Squealer said:


> that fire is gonna be hot....good thing you were "smart" enough not to believe.


If this is directed at 1gr8bldr -
He does believe.
Who's the "smart" one now?


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 24, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> VERY interesting.
> I do have some questions though and no I'm not going to debate your answer. I'm just wondering -
> 
> Considering your mentioned issues with the Bible coupled with your view of man's involvement in the Bible/religion....
> ...


Questions welcome. LOL, I'm on vacation, and I don't know how to "do nothing" so i'm on the computer early today. Usually it's late evenings in an effort to get my mind of work/building. However, tonight I hope to gig some flounder, and bowshoot some stingrays. I still value the bible. Without it, the stories would have been embellished farther. I believe the truth is found within the bible. I know, it begs the question as "why". I still maintain that I am Christian, although they would argue against . I believe as the first Christian did. Not sure if I answered your question


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## atlashunter (Jul 24, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> If this is directed at 1gr8bldr -
> He does believe.
> Who's the "smart" one now?


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## Mexican Squealer (Jul 24, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> If this is directed at 1gr8bldr -
> He does believe.
> Who's the "smart" one now?



Nope, directed at all who are too "smart" to believe. Good stuff here. Enjoy.


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## WaltL1 (Jul 24, 2017)

Mexican Squealer said:


> Nope, directed at all who are too "smart" to believe. Good stuff here. Enjoy.


Thanks for the contribution. Was certainly thought provoking.


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## WaltL1 (Jul 24, 2017)

1gr8bldr said:


> Questions welcome. LOL, I'm on vacation, and I don't know how to "do nothing" so i'm on the computer early today. Usually it's late evenings in an effort to get my mind of work/building. However, tonight I hope to gig some flounder, and bowshoot some stingrays. I still value the bible. Without it, the stories would have been embellished farther. I believe the truth is found within the bible. I know, it begs the question as "why". I still maintain that I am Christian, although they would argue against . I believe as the first Christian did. Not sure if I answered your question





> bowshoot some stingrays


Now that's something Ive never tried. Do you eat them? I understand they can be quite tasty.


> Not sure if I answered your question


Yup you did.


> I still maintain that I am Christian, although they would argue against


If you believe in Jesus Christ and his teachings you are a Christian.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 27, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> The part where he ended up with a long list of problems with his faith that he had to do mental gymnastics to explain but that were easily explained if you allowed for the possibility god didn't exist was also similar for me.



Is this not similar to god of the gaps? You have gaps in explaining evolution, let's say, insert an all powerful god and bingo you've got it. 

You have gaps in explaining your faith, remove the god, and bingo, you've got it?


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 27, 2017)

Mexican Squealer said:


> Nope, directed at all who are too "smart" to believe. Good stuff here. Enjoy.



I though you didn't want to associate at all with these dirty atheists???


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## atlashunter (Jul 27, 2017)

TripleXBullies said:


> Is this not similar to god of the gaps? You have gaps in explaining evolution, let's say, insert an all powerful god and bingo you've got it.
> 
> You have gaps in explaining your faith, remove the god, and bingo, you've got it?



I don't think so. It's not explaining phenomena that needs an explanation even if God doesn't exist such as "what is thunder and earthquakes?".It's following Occam's razor to deal with problems that only exist as a result of faith such as "why doesn't prayer work like the bible says it should?".


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## WaltL1 (Jul 27, 2017)

TripleXBullies said:


> I though you didn't want to associate at all with these dirty atheists???


Hey don't be chasing the fresh meat away 
We gots to eat.


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