# So my daughter in law asked me this...



## christianhunter (Jul 30, 2011)

My daughter in law is a waitress,at a local restaurant.She said she had a regular customer who said he was a pastor.She went on to say that he brought an occasional "friend" with him.It has become apparent to the employees that this man must be gay.

She asked me this question,"How can he be a preacher,if he's gay?"
I thought a minute,and the only thing I could come up with,is I didn't see how that could work.I went on to say,I just couldn't see how he could be a pastor of a Church.This is not the first time I have heard of men calling themselves a Pastor,and openly confess their gay.Am I judging in a way not pleasing before THE LORD?
The account of Sodom,would seem to suffice.


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## centerpin fan (Jul 30, 2011)

There are some gay-friendly churches out there.  The Episcopal Church has a gay bishop (Gene Robinson).  I believe the United Church of Christ ordains gay clergy.  The Metropolitan Community Church is basically a gay denomination.


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## jmar28 (Jul 31, 2011)

I dont see anything wrong with gay churches....or gay pastors....just my opinion...


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## Ronnie T (Jul 31, 2011)

I don't think I would assume he's gay unless he said he was.


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## centerpin fan (Jul 31, 2011)

jmar28 said:


> I dont see anything wrong with gay churches....or gay pastors....just my opinion...



You find yourself in opposition to the Bible and 2,000 years of church history.  Homosexuality has always been considered a sin by the church.  It's only in the last couple of decades that some churches have decided to ignore the Bible and go with society's more permissive attitude towards homosexuality.


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## Tim L (Jul 31, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> I don't think I would assume he's gay unless he said he was.



Good point


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## jmar28 (Jul 31, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> You find yourself in opposition to the Bible and 2,000 years of church history.  Homosexuality has always been considered a sin by the church.  It's only in the last couple of decades that some churches have decided to ignore the Bible and go with society's more permissive attitude towards homosexuality.



boy you always got something to say don't you.....I look at it this way....they could be all in your face flaming hot making you uncomfortable.....but instead they are in church learning about God and Jesus......


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## jmar28 (Jul 31, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> I don't think I would assume he's gay unless he said he was.



excellent post!!!


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## centerpin fan (Jul 31, 2011)

jmar28 said:


> ...but instead they are in church learning about God and Jesus......



Unfortunately, they are not learning that their sin will separate them from God for all eternity.  They are sitting in churches that won't confront them on their sin.


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## jmar28 (Jul 31, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> Unfortunately, they are not learning that their sin will separate them from God for all eternity.  They are sitting in churches that won't confront them on their sin.



I could probably be the only one on woodys who sees nothing wrong with it....but at least they are making an attempt....speaks more than some of us on here......


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## centerpin fan (Jul 31, 2011)

1.  You're not the only one on Woody's who feels that way.

2.  If a gay person goes to a church that condones their sin, they're not making an attempt to repent of it.


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## centerpin fan (Jul 31, 2011)

jmar28 said:


> I could probably be the only one on woodys who sees nothing wrong with it....


 
Are you a Christian?  What does the Bible say about homosexuality?


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## jmar28 (Jul 31, 2011)

1. Thats good to know....

2. Shoot....people got to normal churches all the time and hide their sins from everybody....I'm sure you got a few in your church who are adulterers...spelling....at least at the gay church,everybody is open about their sin....


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## jmar28 (Jul 31, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> Are you a Christian?  What does the Bible say about homosexuality?



yes I am...the bible says....whatever tickles your pickle.... you got to have a sense of humor....


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## centerpin fan (Jul 31, 2011)

jmar28 said:


> ..at least at the gay church,everybody is open about their sin....



Open but unrepentant leads to an eternity apart from God.  There's nothing funny about it.


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## centerpin fan (Jul 31, 2011)

jmar28 said:


> ... the bible says....whatever tickles your pickle....



I must have missed that verse.


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## jmar28 (Jul 31, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> Open but unrepentant leads to an eternity apart from God.  There's nothing funny about it.


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## jmar28 (Jul 31, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> I must have missed that verse.



Yeah its in one of the many many books that didnt get selected....


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## centerpin fan (Jul 31, 2011)

jmar28 said:


> yes I am...the bible says....whatever tickles your pickle.... you got to have a sense of humor....



What church do you attend?  You don't have to give the exact name.  Is it Baptist, Methodist, Catholic ...?


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## centerpin fan (Jul 31, 2011)

jmar28 said:


> Yeah its in one of the many many books that didnt get selected....



You know as little about how we got the Bible as you do about what it says.


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## centerpin fan (Jul 31, 2011)

jmar28 said:


>



Do you think laughter is the appropriate Christian response to people spending an eternity in he11?  Jesus died to save people from that.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 1, 2011)

jmar28 said:


> at least at the gay church,everybody is open about their sin....



So....you're saying being gay is a sin?


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## Ruger#3 (Aug 1, 2011)

FYI, ordination of gays caused major rift in the Anglican Church and foundation of a new diocese. You can read between the lines here.

http://anglicanfederation.net/


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## The Foreigner (Aug 1, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> Do you think laughter is the appropriate Christian response to people spending an eternity in he11?  Jesus died to save people from that.



Centerpin fan - don't waste your time with him. You've asked numerous questions of him, which he has steadfastly refused to answer (probably because he knows he can't justify his position) - so don't ask any more of him. Read these texts and then move on from him Matt 7:6, Prov 26:4.  Don't mean to sound judgmental, but let Scripture and God speak for himself - Rev 21:8.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 1, 2011)

Ruger#3 said:


> FYI, ordination of gays caused major rift in the Anglican Church and foundation of a new diocese. You can read between the lines here.
> 
> http://anglicanfederation.net/



Thank God it did.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 1, 2011)

The Foreigner said:


> Centerpin fan - don't waste your time with him. You've asked numerous questions of him, which he has steadfastly refused to answer (probably because he knows he can't justify his position) - so don't ask any more of him.



I didn't expect him to answer and was not planning on saying anything else to him about it.  He doesn't post in here much and when he does, it's usually something flippant, like the pearl of wisdom in post # 14.  He has shown himself to be completely unserious on the matter.

Thanks for the scriptures -- good ones.


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## jmar28 (Aug 1, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> So....you're saying being gay is a sin?



 not sure


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## jmar28 (Aug 1, 2011)

The Foreigner said:


> Centerpin fan - don't waste your time with him. You've asked numerous questions of him, which he has steadfastly refused to answer (probably because he knows he can't justify his position) - so don't ask any more of him. Read these texts and then move on from him Matt 7:6, Prov 26:4.  Don't mean to sound judgmental, but let Scripture and God speak for himself - Rev 21:8.





centerpin fan said:


> I didn't expect him to answer and was not planning on saying anything else to him about it.  He doesn't post in here much and when he does, it's usually something flippant, like the pearl of wisdom in post # 14.  He has shown himself to be completely unserious on the matter.
> 
> Thanks for the scriptures -- good ones.



I didnt answer cause me and the ole lady had some movies to watch.....blockbuster has got $0.49 movies on Sunday!!!

anyways......I guess I can answer now before I eat supper....

I do attend church its non denominational....

also.....it was real funny to see you get upset this afternoon when I checked back on this.....

but seriously....answer me this if you want.....if a gay person accepts christ...are they not saved?....what happens if a liar accepts christ and continues to lie...are they not saved....(we all know some of these).....

or what about these really really fat pastors.....isn't gluttony a sin....they are sinning everyday when they put that fried chicken to their mouth....is it different cause they bless it first........

all I said is that I have no problem with it...then you posted....so of course I am going to mess with you.....

Seriously....$0.49 movies at blockbuster on sundays!!!


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## centerpin fan (Aug 1, 2011)

jmar28 said:


> I do attend church its non denominational....



Do they share your views on homosexuality?




jmar28 said:


> but seriously....answer me this if you want.....if a gay person accepts christ...are they not saved?....



If, by "accept Christ", you mean he repented of the sin of homosexuality, yes.  No repentance?  No salvation.




jmar28 said:


> all I said is that I have no problem with it...then you posted....so of course I am going to mess with you.....
> 
> Seriously....$0.49 movies at blockbuster on sundays!!!



You seem to treat all matters of faith as a big joke, even matters of eternal punishment, as you demonstrate above.  That's fine if you are a skeptic, but you claim to be a Christian.  Whatever your beliefs, you are a deeply unserious person.


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## jmar28 (Aug 1, 2011)

jmar28 said:


> but seriously....answer me this if you want.....if a gay person accepts christ...are they not saved?....what happens if a liar accepts christ and continues to lie...are they not saved....(we all know some of these).....
> 
> or what about these really really fat pastors.....isn't gluttony a sin....they are sinning everyday when they put that fried chicken to their mouth....is it different cause they bless it first........





centerpin fan said:


> If, by "accept Christ", you mean he repented of the sin of homosexuality, yes.  No repentance?  No salvation.



is the pastor in sin?


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## jmar28 (Aug 1, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> You seem to treat all matters of faith as a big joke, even matters of eternal punishment, as you demonstrate above.  That's fine if you are a skeptic, but you claim to be a Christian.  Whatever your beliefs, you are a deeply unserious person.



not all matters......I can get "deeply serious"....but why.....


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## centerpin fan (Aug 1, 2011)

jmar28 said:


> is the pastor in sin?



Ah, yes ... the "fat pastor" analogy:  a favorite of anybody trying to justify the sin of                         .  (Fill in the blank.)

Gluttony is sin, not being overweight.  You can be a bodybuilding champion and still be gluttonous.  Check the classical definitions of gluttony.  It goes far beyond being overweight.  Therefore, if the pastor is gluttonous, he is in sin.  It doesn't matter if his waist is 32" or 62".


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## centerpin fan (Aug 1, 2011)

jmar28 said:


> not all matters......I can get "deeply serious"....but why.....



Let me know when eternal d**nation is something you can get deeply serious about.


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## jmar28 (Aug 1, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> Ah, yes ... the "fat pastor" analogy:  a favorite of anybody trying to justify the sin of                         .  (Fill in the blank.)
> 
> Gluttony is sin, not being overweight.  You can be a bodybuilding champion and still be gluttonous.  Check the classical definitions of gluttony.  It goes far beyond being overweight.  Therefore, if the pastor is gluttonous, he is in sin.  It doesn't matter if his waist is 32" or 62".



Ah, yes.... the "here you go trying to use this excuse again so I am going to say 'Ah, yes....this excuse again'" routine.....

Well.....you can't be overweight by not eating too much now can you....and bodybuilders do eat alot.....they have to eat something like 3 to more thousands calories a day....you have to eat to build muscle....

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gluttony

glut·tony noun \ËˆglÉ™t-nÄ“, ËˆglÉ™-tÉ™-nÄ“\
plural glut·ton·ies

Definition of GLUTTONY
1: excess in eating or drinking 

see......you have to eat in excess to be fat.....and not workout.....that is to be known too...bounce


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## jmar28 (Aug 1, 2011)

I believe me and centerpin fan would be great buddies.....we don't like the other to have the last word.....that a classic best buds definition in my book........what you say centerpin???.... want to be be besties?!?!?!?!......haha


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## centerpin fan (Aug 1, 2011)

jmar28 said:


> Well.....you can't be overweight by not eating too much ....



Wrong.

I see your nutritional expertise matches your biblical knowledge.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 1, 2011)

jmar28 said:


> I believe me and centerpin fan would be great buddies.....we don't like the other to have the last word.....that a classic best buds definition in my book........what you say centerpin???.... want to be be besties?!?!?!?!......haha



How about if I just say a prayer for you instead?  If that doesn't satisfy you, feel free to PM me a list of your favorite "sinners in Hades for all eternity" jokes.

Having said that, I think I'll take Foreigner's advice.


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## jmar28 (Aug 1, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> How about if I just say a prayer for you instead?  If that doesn't satisfy you, feel free to PM me a list of your favorite "sinners in he11 for all eternity" jokes.
> 
> Having said that, I think I'll take Foreigner's advice.



I'm sure you will...probably right after you pray for the homosexuals.......


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## Lead Poison (Aug 1, 2011)

No church or pastor should ever advocate or support homosexuality.

To do so is to go completely against God, as he considers it an abomination!


No Christian should ever support anything that goes against God's written, living word found in the Bible.

For the record, if you daughter has doubts about the pastor she is well within her right to ask him about about his belief on the subject. The truth will be easily recognizable in his demeanor and response.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 1, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> Ah, yes ... the "fat pastor" analogy:  a favorite of anybody trying to justify the sin of                         .  (Fill in the blank.)
> 
> Gluttony is sin, not being overweight.  You can be a bodybuilding champion and still be gluttonous.  Check the classical definitions of gluttony.  It goes far beyond being overweight.  Therefore, if the pastor is gluttonous, he is in sin.  It doesn't matter if his waist is 32" or 62".



Oh yes, the old gluttony card again.

There isn't a specific sin of gluttony found in the Bible.

Gluttony of food would be one "making their stomach their God"......... Or anything else.

Not about eatten to much fried chicken.
And it won't change what God says about the physical act of homosexuality.
Condemning a pastor won't gain forgiveness for an unrepentant homosexual.


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## woods-n-water (Aug 2, 2011)

jmar......shame on you.........you are just a trouble maker............YOU should repent............


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## centerpin fan (Aug 3, 2011)

christianhunter said:


> My daughter in law is a waitress,at a local restaurant.She said she had a regular customer who said he was a pastor.She went on to say that he brought an occasional "friend" with him.It has become apparent to the employees that this man must be gay.
> 
> She asked me this question,"How can he be a preacher,if he's gay?"
> I thought a minute,and the only thing I could come up with,is I didn't see how that could work.I went on to say,I just couldn't see how he could be a pastor of a Church.This is not the first time I have heard of men calling themselves a Pastor,and openly confess their gay.Am I judging in a way not pleasing before THE LORD?
> The account of Sodom,would seem to suffice.



I wasn't planning on adding to what I had already posted, but I checked on a blog I sometimes frequent, and this topic was the most recent entry.  The passage is lengthy, so I'm just posting a brief section of it here.  The author deals with how the clergy should minister to someone struggling with this sin, and he doesn't mince words.  (Emphasis is mine.)


_"The principle in Scripture and Tradition is that that homosexual sex is inherently sinful. How one pastorally deals with a homosexual who acknowledges his sin, and wishes to repent of it is an entirely different question. Whether the priest will tell him that he needs to repent, or tell him that homosexuality is natural and that he can go on engaging in homosexual sex is a question of the basic moral principles of the Christian Faith. Any priest who suggests that homosexual sex is not inherently sinful, and must be repented of is in fact a heretic... a man who slams the doors of repentance in the face of sinners, and seeks the ****ation of those who wishes to persuade."_


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## Madman (Aug 3, 2011)

Ruger#3 said:


> FYI, ordination of gays caused major rift in the Anglican Church and foundation of a new diocese. You can read between the lines here.
> 
> http://anglicanfederation.net/



Anglican Diocese of the south is another.  We all need to remember that the acceptance of homosexuality by the church is not the problem.  

IT IS A SYMPTOM OF THE PROBLEM!!!


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## gtparts (Aug 3, 2011)

My sin is that I am short for my weight..... should have been at least 7 ft. tall!


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## Lead Poison (Aug 3, 2011)

Madman said:


> Anglican Diocese of the south is another.  We all need to remember that the acceptance of homosexuality by the church is not the problem.
> 
> IT IS A SYMPTOM OF THE PROBLEM!!!



You are right!


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## ChickInATree (Aug 3, 2011)

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Seems pretty strait forward to me


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## JFS (Aug 3, 2011)

So do all you guys tossing the word abomination around really still follow the rules in Leviticus?


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## christianhunter (Aug 3, 2011)

"If" this "pastor" is gay,I believe that most of you agree with what I said.How could he be saved?


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## JB0704 (Aug 3, 2011)

> "If" this "pastor" is gay,I believe that most of you agree with what I said.How could he be saved



Are Christians not capable of sin?  I just heard of a pastor in Cartersville who had carried on a two year affair.  There was another one in Powder Springs who had a twenty year affair.  I think this is a bigger problem, from a human perspective, because there are actually victims.  But, everybody wanted to "restore" them, nobody questioned their credentials as Christians.


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## BT Charlie (Aug 3, 2011)

I recently got sucked into this very discussion, despite every intent of focusing on the plank in my own eye, as it were.  It ended with perhaps the separation of two long time Christian friends, bitterly divided, probably dripping in mutual sins of pride and hypocrisy, over who knows best what God intends.  One small but so painful example of the carnage that this debate is causing in the church.

If you would, I'd appreciate some prayer for healing of that relationship.  I also will join you all in praying for unity of spirit among the Body of Christ.

My discussion unraveled after I was referred to as a small-minded, legalistic right wing nut who had no understanding of how the Bible was written or how to properly interpret it.  When you folks get a zinger like that, I might suggest a humble reply like, "You obviously feel very strongly about the topic or me, so let's make some time later to discuss it." That's not what I did ... And like they say, you squeeze a plastic ketchup bottle and it spews ketchup, you squeeze a sinner and you get sin.

For whatever it's worth, I do believe gays like all sinners should be welcomed in church to hear the Word and hopefully to be loved into the Kingdom of God.  I do not fear a dialogue on sin, repentance, the meaning of communion and reconciliation through Christ.  I guess I come off as small minded and legalistic though because that dialogue includes identification of sin, including homosexuality, and the need for the sinner to confess that sin and to repent of it and to go and sin no more.

The difference between this sin and others is, for example, that thieves, murderers and drug traffickers have not established multi-million dollar secular political movements with high paid lobbyists to make their sins legally acceptable.  Our public schools aren't experimenting with alternate lifestyle courses that explore the benefits of being a murderer or a pornographer.  And I don't know of any pastors who are openly murderers, pedophiles, adulterers, drunkards, drug traffickers or the like.  Yes, pastors sin daily and the enemy particularly prowls around in the hopes of destroying them, their churches, their families and their lives. But an "ordained" homosexual pastor is the enemy's great modern achievement, IMO (being admittedly small minded and legalistic.) It seems no different than an "ordained" adulterer or pedophile, who has convinced his church body that extra marital affairs and other sexual immorality are not sins after all.  I will let you judge for yourself whether the gay church agenda fits hand-in-glove with its secular political movement.  Are not the two simply slices of the whole agenda?

So has Christ come to divide and separate? I seem to remember Him being quoted as saying so.  Is that out of context here?

We can focus on God's love of the sinner and hatred for the sin. We can intercede for individuals caught up in this, and for the gay movement leaders, and for our church elders.  But for me and my family, we can't stand by like Adam and let the enemy cast doubt on the word of God to lure folks into a life of sin.  That get's uncomfortable and down right painful.  It was on my heart and I had no where else to discuss it. Sorry for this long post.

May Your will be done, Father. Not mine.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 4, 2011)

BT Charlie said:


> I recently got sucked into this very discussion, despite every intent of focusing on the plank in my own eye, as it were.  It ended with perhaps the separation of two long time Christian friends, bitterly divided, probably dripping in mutual sins of pride and hypocrisy, over who knows best what God intends.  One small but so painful example of the carnage that this debate is causing in the church.
> 
> If you would, I'd appreciate some prayer for healing of that relationship.  I also will join you all in praying for unity of spirit among the Body of Christ.
> 
> ...



I welcome those thoughts and hope you'll spend a lot of time at this spiritual forum.
You're thoughts convey the love and caring that all Christians need for everyone, but you also acknowledge that God's will and God's truths are paramount.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 4, 2011)

christianhunter said:


> "If" this "pastor" is gay,I believe that most of you agree with what I said.How could he be saved?



Ch, you often bring in a familiar verse, John 3:16.
You've often said that verse is the only important thing.
I don't agree that it is, but just wanted you to think about it with that verse in mind.


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## christianhunter (Aug 4, 2011)

BT Charlie said:


> I recently got sucked into this very discussion, despite every intent of focusing on the plank in my own eye, as it were.  It ended with perhaps the separation of two long time Christian friends, bitterly divided, probably dripping in mutual sins of pride and hypocrisy, over who knows best what God intends.  One small but so painful example of the carnage that this debate is causing in the church.
> 
> If you would, I'd appreciate some prayer for healing of that relationship.  I also will join you all in praying for unity of spirit among the Body of Christ.
> 
> ...



Good and well thought out post.Amen!


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## christianhunter (Aug 4, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Ch, you often bring in a familiar verse, John 3:16.
> You've often said that verse is the only important thing.
> I don't agree that it is, but just wanted you to think about it with that verse in mind.



That was the reason for the thread Brother.When my daughter in law first asked me,I started to tell her that there was "No way" he could be saved,much less a pastor.That was the reason I gave her the two responses I gave her in the OP.It was brought to memory,"with GOD all things are possible." The response THE LORD gave the Apostles,when they asked HIM."How then can anyone be saved?"
Notice too that I included the account of Sodom and Gommorah,in the OP.


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## Crubear (Aug 4, 2011)

1) Can anyone tell me what sin isn't an abomination to God?
2) Can anyone tell me how many people are in chruch without sin?
3) Can you be Gay and be celibate?
4) What did Jesus have to say about homosexuality?
5) What did Jesus say about divorce?
6) Is it OK to be divorced and in church?
7) Can you be divorced and be Christian?
8) Who determines the salvation of every one?

I know what's right, and choose to not do it. 
I know what's wrong, and choose to do it anyway.
I know Jesus, and chose to follow him - but I'm still me, a work in progress.
Think the pastor might be too?


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## The Foreigner (Aug 4, 2011)

JFS said:


> So do all you guys tossing the word abomination around really still follow the rules in Leviticus?



ONLY when it speaks to moral regulations which God has laid forth, and has not and can not change. We've posted elsewhere on this one... if God says something is moral / immoral, it can not change, as that is a reflection of the unchanging mind of God. So yes - what it says in Leviticus about homosexuality being an abomination - still stands.

And we shouldn't get side-tracked by all the "other" sins that pastors get involved in. All sins are an abomination in the sight of God, and all sins (bar apostasy) are forgiveable. But if a man refuses to turn from his sin, whether it's gluttony with the fried chicken, or homosexuality then that is a pretty sure sign that he may well not be a believer (at least Christ thought so - Matt 3:8-10; 7:17-19).

Morality does not change because God does not change (Malachai 3:6)


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## centerpin fan (Aug 4, 2011)

Crubear said:


> 1) Can anyone tell me what sin isn't an abomination to God?



There isn't any but, as BT Charlie said earlier, homosexuality is the only one that is being championed by certain elements of our culture.  It is the "politically correct" sin that is promoted endlessly in the media.  As this thread has shown, it's acceptance has even crept into some of the churches.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 4, 2011)

Key for me is this:  Christ's church would never select a practicing gay person as it's pastor or elder or Sunday school teacher.
Nor a practicing drunk, or adulterer, or someone who's shacking with another person, or someone known to be a gossip, or lier, etc.


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## Crubear (Aug 4, 2011)

Hey Fan, it's championed and accepted divorce since I was a kid (and that was a while ago)


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## centerpin fan (Aug 4, 2011)

Crubear said:


> Hey Fan, it's championed and accepted divorce since I was a kid (and that was a while ago)



But even our culture generally treats divorce as a negative.  Try to get anybody in Hollywood to say a negative word about homosexuality.


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## SneekEE (Aug 4, 2011)

christianhunter said:


> My daughter in law is a waitress,at a local restaurant.She said she had a regular customer who said he was a pastor.She went on to say that he brought an occasional "friend" with him.It has become apparent to the employees that this man must be gay.
> 
> She asked me this question,"How can he be a preacher,if he's gay?"
> I thought a minute,and the only thing I could come up with,is I didn't see how that could work.I went on to say,I just couldn't see how he could be a pastor of a Church.This is not the first time I have heard of men calling themselves a Pastor,and openly confess their gay.Am I judging in a way not pleasing before THE LORD?
> The account of Sodom,would seem to suffice.



If the man is not gay and people say he is, then that is not rightous judgement. The bible clearly says we are to make judgements, but the way we judge is how we shall be judged. I would try to always judge rightously and trust that i will be judged the same. As far as beeing gay goes, it is a sin like all the rest, and unless a sinner repents he wont be saved. If a drunk proclaims to be saved yet proudly boasts he continues to drink and sees no wrong in it then he is unrepented and unregenerated. If a murderer professes to be saved and continues to kill people the bible says he will not inherit the kingdom God nor does he have salvation. If a lier professes to be saved yet continues to habitualy tell lies with no remorse or concern for hurting God he to has yet to repent and the truth is not in him. Carry this thinking through with homosexuality. God has said it is a sin for man to lie with man. If a man professes to be saved yet continues in his sin of homosexuality without remorse or conviction then agin there is no repentance, he has not turned away from his sin if he continues in it, common since. A person confessing or proclaiming to be saved has little to do with them beeing saved. The bible teaches that many who call Him Lord, Lord would in fact perish on judgement day. These people profess to beeing christian, the call Jesus there Lord, yet He says He never knew them. He called them workers of iniquity. That is there are people who claim to be christian and call Jesus there Lord but they have not recieved Christ as there Lord, they have not repented of there sin, they continue in it, they are workers of iniquity or sin. 


Mathew 7:20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 

 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 

 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 

 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 

 24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 

If a man ...aint "dooithin" what the Lord says, and instead is "dooithin" what God hates, and does so without remorse, or is proud of it, you can make a rightous judgement and a biblical one that the truth is not in that man. As far the man in the scenario u gave, i wouldnt not make a judgement based off what other people only suspect, and dont know for sure.There are plenty of christians who onced lived a homosexual lifestyle who today do not. He may just be having dinner with another born again believer who once was just like u or me.


----------



## farmasis (Aug 4, 2011)

jmar28 said:


> I could probably be the only one on woodys who sees nothing wrong with it....but at least they are making an attempt....speaks more than some of us on here......


 
My opinion is that it is more damaging to the Kingdom because they (if confirmed to be true) are in the church.


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## BT Charlie (Aug 4, 2011)

Crubear said:


> 1) Can anyone tell me what sin isn't an abomination to God?
> 2) Can anyone tell me how many people are in chruch without sin?
> 3) Can you be Gay and be celibate?
> 4) What did Jesus have to say about homosexuality?
> ...




Crue, 

These are great points.  Paul wrestled honestly with his human nature. And you've paraphrased some of our modern struggles, which may be no different from those at the time of or since Christ.  I can feel the plank in my own eye.

Here's one for you:

I do not recall scripture quoting Jesus discussing genocide.  Does the absence of such discussion imply that Jesus therefore condoned genocide?  I doubt you buy that kind of logic.

Thanks


----------



## JFS (Aug 4, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> There isn't any but, as BT Charlie said earlier, homosexuality is the only one that is being championed by certain elements of our culture.



Oh I don't know about that.  Last time I was on Cape Cod they were pushing the clambakes pretty hard too.


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## ted_BSR (Aug 4, 2011)

Why are we judging this man? It is not our place to do this. Sometimes you just have to leave it to God and move on. We must teach our children this, and we must teach them to follow their their hearts guided by God's wisdom.


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## christianhunter (Aug 4, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> Why are we judging this man? It is not our place to do this. Sometimes you just have to leave it to God and move on. We must teach our children this, and we must teach them to follow their their hearts guided by God's wisdom.



His name has not been called,I've never met him.I do not know him.This thread is based on the question my daughter in law asked me,and not the spiritual state of this man.Re-read the OP,I did not condemn him,it was a basic-"I'm not sure what to say" remark to her.It is more hypothetical than a judgment of this individual.At most he is a victim of circumstance at best.Ronnie brought it up early in the thread,if he hasn't confessed it,how would they know it?


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## Michael F. Gray (Aug 5, 2011)

Centerpin wisdom, you are using discernment and knowledge of the Word of God. If the Lord calls it abomination, that's what it is. Now let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. The Lord loves the sinner, but finds his/her actions abominable. To state it briefly, there is a sin barrier between that person and the Lord. For the Lord to hear their prayer, first must come conviction of the sin and REPENTANCE. [a turning away from it]. If that repenitent person with a pure heart accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior the sin barrier can be overcome. It's the first steps towards a Christian walk.[but they willl forsake their former wickedness]. Now I expect some left wing, liberal blow hard to respond telling me how gays are Christians also. If you believe the WOrd of God, ...just taint so. It was the Lord himself who declared nothing would enter heaven that defiles it. God's Holiness requres that. If the Lord himself boldly declares a persons choice of deviant activity an ABOMINATION, it is precisely that. There will be no abominations in HIS Heavenly Kingdom.


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## Crubear (Aug 5, 2011)

Thanks JFS

On Genocide I can go
- Old Testament and use Don't commit murder
or New Testament
- Love your neighbor....
- Do unto others....
- Happy (or Blessed) are the merciful....

and finally, and hopefully it's been stated here earlier 

She said he appears gay
- not that she's seen anything inappropriate
-  and not that there are two witnesses to any inappropriate activities.

By the words in the New Testament he's innocent and we're the guilty party.

Put another spin on it, he used to be gay and is now discipling to the gay community? 
Oops, changes things when you look at it that way, doesn't it?


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## centerpin fan (Aug 5, 2011)

christianhunter said:


> It is more hypothetical than a judgment of this individual.



That's the way I took it.  I skimmed the thread again and saw very few comments directed at the man himself and a lot of comments on homosexuality.  Based on the OP alone, I don't see how you can conclude the man is gay.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 5, 2011)

Crubear said:


> Thanks JFS
> 
> On Genocide I can go
> - Old Testament and use Don't commit murder
> ...



You make an excellant point.


----------



## BT Charlie (Aug 6, 2011)

Thanks, Cru.

The questions of what Jesus had to say about homosexuality and genocide are fleshly kissing cousins, IMO.  They imply specifically that the New Testament doesn't quote Jesus as having given express guidance on the topics. (If Jesus did in fact speak directly to either of these, and the NT quotes it, please forgive me and let me know the error of my way.) If the Old Testament is an answer to what Jesus said about genocide, then it must also be an answer to what He has to say about homosexuality.

I am convicted by many comments and scriptural quotes in this thread.  I am glad Christianhunter presented the issue in the OP.  I saw many comments in various degrees criticizing CH, expressing or implying that he was either engaged in or inviting idle gossip, judgment and condemnation regarding this unidentified figure occasionally haunting an unidentified cafe in the company of men.

My perception is that none of the accusations ring true and CH's concern for his
 daughter in law, if not the anonymous person and his flock, were CH's over-arching purpose in posting this.  I am sorry I did not stick to CH's inquiry and instead kind of blurted out what was on my heart in an indirect way related to the subject.  I apologize for interrupting.  I am grateful for the kind words in reply.

On CH's specific point, ie, what should he advise his daughter in law, it seems like advice has ranged from mind your own business and opposing intervention to supporting intervention if not confrontation and unilateral exorcism.  If it were me in CH's shoes, I guess I'd pray and urge my daughter in law to pray. Ask God for clarity, to light the correct path.  Maybe God has put this on CH's heart for a purpose...including the possibility that this obedient waitress could mention scripture - God's transcendent Word that remains true regardless of the speaker's and listener's faults and sins -- to figuratively slap a backsliding son upside the head.  I do not wish to be understood as condoning one action over another, as I agree that insufficient facts exist to guide a principled response beyond CH's own prayer and fear and trembling in working out his own salvation.  May God Bless you folks.


----------



## truthfulhawk (Aug 10, 2011)

*ok*

I did not bother to read all the statements in the thread. I can give you my understanding on this one.

God loves the sinner , but hates the sin. We do know that homosexuality is condemned by God. He calls it an abomination and unnatural. Based on that, I can safetly conclude that a preacher who is an "active" homosexual...one who currently and actively embraces this lifestyle, is outside the will of God in a BIG way.
It is one thing to struggle with temptation and fail tests..it is another to embrace sin as a lifestyle.

Just because more churches are open to gay lifestyles does not make it right. Now the church is for homosexuals and every other kind of sinner...we should show love to our fellow man and welcome them into church in order to hear the truth of God's Word. However, I personally wouldn't want anyone who is enmeshed in a total lifestyle of sin explaining God's Word or leading a church in any way due to teh skewed perception they have (not to mention the fact that if you are one with the "world" then you are apart from the covering God offers)

Would you follow a preacher who killed a few people every now adn then with no regret or one who stole your mom's identity and ruined her credit cause that was how he made his real money? A life style of sin produces fruit, by which we are known..just like a lifestyle of grace.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 10, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> ... homosexuality is the only one that is being championed by certain elements of our culture.  It is the "politically correct" sin that is promoted endlessly in the media.



Not even "Sesame Street" is safe.    (Hat tip to hawglips in the Political forum):

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertai...nie_to_have_gay_wedding_on_sesame_street.html


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## Madman (Aug 10, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> Not even "Sesame Street" is safe.    (Hat tip to hawglips in the Political forum):
> 
> http://www.nydailynews.com/entertai...nie_to_have_gay_wedding_on_sesame_street.html



They refuse morality.

*“Tolerance is the last virtue of a depraved society. When you have an immoral society that has blatantly, proudly, violated all of the commandments of God, there is one last virtue they insist upon: tolerance for their immorality. They will not have you condemning what they have done as being wrong, and they have created a belief system in which it is not, and in which they are no longer the criminal or the villain or the evil person, but you are!”
			D. James Kennedy*


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## ambush80 (Aug 10, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Key for me is this:  Christ's church would never select a practicing gay person as it's pastor or elder or Sunday school teacher.
> Nor a practicing drunk, or adulterer, or someone who's shacking with another person, or someone known to be a gossip, or lier, etc.




My UCC in laws disagree with you.  Would you be so bold as to say that you have a better grasp on what it is to be a good Christian than they do.  I have been to their church and they, the whole congregation, are devout.  They say they are Christians, even their lesbian pastor, and I believe them.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 10, 2011)

But from your perspective, they believe in something that isn't real.

So, anybody who "says they are Christians" is.....no?


BTW...there is not now, nor has there ever been an entire congregation that is devout.  Somebody in that body ain't gettin' it.  Trust me.


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## stringmusic (Aug 10, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> My UCC in laws disagree with you.  Would you be so bold as to say that you have a better grasp on what it is to be a good Christian than they do.  I have been to their church and they, the whole congregation, are devout.  *They say they are Christians, even their lesbian pastor, and I believe them*.



I am a rhinosaurus. Do you believe me?


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 10, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> My UCC in laws disagree with you.  Would you be so bold as to say that you have a better grasp on what it is to be a good Christian than they do.  I have been to their church and they, the whole congregation, are devout.  They say they are Christians, even their lesbian pastor, and I believe them.



As I said way back in post #2, the UCC is one of a handful of small, very liberal churches that ignore the Bible's teaching on homosexuality.


----------



## pjeremy (Aug 10, 2011)

*PJeremy*



jmar28 said:


> I could probably be the only one on woodys who sees nothing wrong with it....but at least they are making an attempt....speaks more than some of us on here......



Are they truly making attempt and if so what kind of attempt or are they just easing their conscious. Just going to church does not save nor change us and all through out scripture God called homosexuality a condemnable sin. I know God loves these people but never accepts their sin nor does He make excuses for it. If the church could get back to the heart of God and again start calling sin for what it is and dealing with it the way God called His church to then we would not be talking about this today. We have dropped the ball.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 10, 2011)

pjeremy said:


> Are they truly making attempt and if so what kind of attempt or are they just easing their conscious. Just going to church does not save nor change us and all through out scripture God called homosexuality a condemnable sin. I know God loves these people but never accepts their sin nor does He make excuses for it. If the church could get back to the heart of God and again start calling sin for what it is and dealing with it the way God called His church to then we would not be talking about this today. We have dropped the ball.



We have dropped the ball.
We've begun comparing ourselves to each other's church rather than abiding in God's truth found in His holy Word.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 10, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> But from your perspective, they believe in something that isn't real.
> 
> So, anybody who "says they are Christians" is.....no?
> 
> ...





stringmusic said:


> I am a rhinosaurus. Do you believe me?




They believe that Jesus is the son of God and the only way to salvation, even the gay ones.  What does that make them?


----------



## BT Charlie (Aug 10, 2011)

Ambush, God bless you man.  This is a painful conflict.  I hope the best for your family, their lesbian church leader and you.

My theology or salvation, which is still a work in progress, basically relates to the conflict along these lines.  In God's eyes, their sins, including their sexual deviances, are no greater than mine or yours, including whatever sexual proclivities we may have (apologies to folks with doctrinal differences on ranking of sin in general or homosexuality in particular).

I don't think blanket judgments on others' salvation is part of my role in Christ. 
Here, such a judgment based only on their sexual preference seems particularly inappropriate.  Again, their sin is no greater sin than ours in God's eyes.  So I am ok not throwing a stone toward individuals deceived by their sin to this extent, which seems to subordinate crystal clear truths regarding scripture and the law,
 if you will, leaving room for Christ's love, mercy and grace to be the primary focus of relationship or outreach.

The wheels come off for me when new rules are established among certain sects to not only eliminate the law, but also to create a new bulwark of law condoning, encouraging and promoting what is obviously sin.  As has been pointed out, alcoholics may repent, backslide and wind up drinking again.  So it may be for a person struggling with homosexuality.  The difference is that as far as I know alcoholics have not started their own sect built on the bottle instead of the Rock.  Nobody I know says debauchery is ok, and no sect has knowingly ordained an openly unrepentant debaucherer.  Recall Jimmy swaggert? He fell.  His face was wet with tears in repentance, and not just on one occasion.

Not so for organized and unrepentant gay sinners.  They apparently seek the same concessions in construction of God's law as they have obtained in the operation of man's law, i.e., favored status.  Is the trajectory of this political movement the criminal prosecution of those who recite scripture offensive to their way of life? Will it be a hate crime to say being gay is an abomination to the Lord?

My fleshly logic and concerns regarding the secular politics taint me, among other shortcomings.

Is the woman at the well any instruction here? Her individual sins of a sexual 
nature were known to Christ, who in truth acknowledged them to her, and still He bestowed His mercy, love and grace, with the admonition that she go and sin no more.  The Lord did not say go and establish a sect where everybody does what you do and then have everybody say it's ok in My name.

In addition, this gets to be a bit of a game of tolerance chicken.  
It is human nature perhaps to experience deep offense and insult when we perceive that an enemy is destroying or corrupting something we hold so dear.  Homosexuals feel attacked by small-minded legalists.  We sinners who see the gay church as false doctrine are deeply wounded by what we see as corruption, deception and frankly heresy. 

We are instructed to die to self, because Christ himself suffered and died for all 
of these insults and corruption.  But are we not also called to stand firm in the truth?  Can someone show me please how to do that lovingly and without condoning false doctrine?

This is a fight not of flesh and blood but among the principalities of heaven.

I do feel completely spent trying to confess my own sin, loving the sinner, hating the sin, and dying to self in defense of hurtled insults.

Your will be done, Lord, not mine.


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## JFS (Aug 10, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> They believe that Jesus is the son of God and the only way to salvation, even the gay ones.  What does that make them?



Wrong, but less wrong then the ones who believe Jesus is the son of God and the only way to salvation, except for the gay ones.


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 10, 2011)

All of God's children must understand and deal with the reality that God set the boundaries and guidelines.
A segment of the church cannot decide that part of what God said and proclaimed no longer applies.

Paul spoke the following words to a 1st century church....  " I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them."

Now, during the past 20 years, some are teaching that what was an abomination should not be approved for the church.
Sounds like someone's speaking perverse things from within the church.

It can be compared to a sitting President wanted to ignore certain things of the Constitution.


----------



## pjeremy (Aug 10, 2011)

*PJeremy*



Ronnie T said:


> We have dropped the ball.
> We've begun comparing ourselves to each others church rather than abiding in God's truth found in His holy Word.



God's truth has not changed and neither has His standards. It is the Church who has lowered her standards and allowed such things as homosexuality. Many churches today allow things within their congregations that is sin and everyone knows it is sin but may will do nothing about it. 

No comparison intended but do we really deal with sin the way Christ has told us to?

Something to think about.....

Pastor Jeremy
Community Church


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## BT Charlie (Aug 10, 2011)

JFS -- So you see gay pastors and their flocks erring on one extreme, and anti-gay pastors and their flocks who profess that homosexuality is a sin beyond salvation through Christ as erring on the other extreme.  Does that correctly sum up your view?

Let's assume for this discussion that all sinners can exercise their free will to accept the gift of eternal salvation from Christ.

That said, is it "of Christ" to remain mute in response to the very public display and growth of the gay church doctrine? If we have a duty to speak, to disciple, 
to witness, to take a stand, is it ok to dare to utter that the gay Christian 
doctrine is a false doctrine masquerading in the light? Is that the truth the way 
you see it, or is it just too legalistic and mean spirited to say it? Thanks.


----------



## BT Charlie (Aug 10, 2011)

Ronnie and Jeremy -- God bless you guys. Excellent points.  I would like to know more about the "appropriate" or scripturally bullet proof manner to love this politically organized minority group of sinners while still being able to hate their sin without being labeled legalistic, hypocritical, etc.  How do you guys think Jesus would publicly deal with this today? Thanks


----------



## pjeremy (Aug 11, 2011)

*PJeremy*



BT Charlie said:


> Ronnie and Jeremy -- God bless you guys. Excellent points.  I would like to know more about the "appropriate" or scripturally bullet proof manner to love this politically organized minority group of sinners while still being able to hate their sin without being labeled legalistic, hypocritical, etc.  How do you guys think Jesus would publicly deal with this today? Thanks



Jesus dealt with hard issues with much compassion. We should be very compassionate with people when dealing with their sin, and we must look at their growth to see if they are producing fruit. If people in any sin are not producing the fruit of progressing out of it then we have to do the hard issues such as church discipline. Paul said that a little bit of sin left unattended has the the potential to affect the entire congregation.

I don't think that we can handle this subject in a way that pleases everyone, but we should handle it in a way that is pleasing to Christ.

We must deal with things quickly and always out of love, but also with a stern hand.

In Christ,
Pastor Jeremy
Community Church


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## JFS (Aug 11, 2011)

BT Charlie said:


> JFS -- So you see gay pastors and their flocks erring on one extreme, and anti-gay pastors and their flocks who profess that homosexuality is a sin beyond salvation through Christ as erring on the other extreme.  Does that correctly sum up your view?



No, I just see the whole underlying theology as flawed, but if there is a coherent theology it will be universal and not tainted by archaic biases.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 11, 2011)

pjeremy said:


> We should be very compassionate with people when dealing with their sin, and we must look at their growth to see if they are producing fruit.



Here's a thought: years ago I had a typical college-know-it-all mindset questioning anything and everything including the existence of God, and certainly his "loving" nature.  I had a friend encourage me to look at things from a different perspective because he saw a different character in Jesus than any I had ever heard about from religion.  He was correct, and is one of the main influences which encouraged me not to completely turn away from God.  The friend I am talking about is gay (not entirely openly, and aware of the Biblical position on the subject).  

Is that producing fruit?  Is it possible a gay man can love Jesus and still struggle with his predispositions?  If the Church had "disciplined" him I might have never re-evaluated my thoughts on God, and the positive "ripples" go on from there.

On the topic of the thread: I used to have breakfast with a preacher friend of mine once every few months.  We both are straight, but I wonder how many folks concluded we must be gay because our wives were never there?


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## Scott G (Aug 11, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> Homosexuality has always been considered a sin by the church.



There are lots of things other than being gay that is viewed as a sin, it doesn't prevent people from being Christians though


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 11, 2011)

Scott G said:


> There are lots of things other than being gay that is viewed as a sin, it doesn't prevent people from being Christians though



... but, as I noted above, homosexuality is the one sin that our society promotes as not being a sin.  Christians are called to deny their sinful desires and live a life pleasing to God.  Look at this passage from Ephesians 4:


_ 22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness. 

 25 Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body. 26 “In your anger do not sin”: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27 and do not give the devil a foothold. 28 Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need._


In contrast to that, our culture (and, unfortunately, some churches) tells us that homosexuality is not a sin and repentance for it is unnecessary.


----------



## pjeremy (Aug 11, 2011)

*PJeremy*



JB0704 said:


> Here's a thought: years ago I had a typical college-know-it-all mindset questioning anything and everything including the existence of God, and certainly his "loving" nature.  I had a friend encourage me to look at things from a different perspective because he saw a different character in Jesus than any I had ever heard about from religion.  He was correct, and is one of the main influences which encouraged me not to completely turn away from God.  The friend I am talking about is gay (not entirely openly, and aware of the Biblical position on the subject).
> 
> Is that producing fruit?  Is it possible a gay man can love Jesus and still struggle with his predispositions?  If the Church had "disciplined" him I might have never re-evaluated my thoughts on God, and the positive "ripples" go on from there.
> 
> On the topic of the thread: I used to have breakfast with a preacher friend of mine once every few months.  We both are straight, but I wonder how many folks concluded we must be gay because our wives were never there?



Although we are to hate the sin and love the sinner, we cannot separate the sin from the sinner. I know that we do not like the word discipline or even the thought of it, but practicing homosexuals are to be disciplined. We cannot ignore what the bible says just because we are not comfortable with it. Read 1 Corinthians 5:1-13.
If this man is a professing brother then according to verses 9-13 action must be taken to remove his sphere of influence from the church, that is if he will not come out of his sin. That is the fruit I was referring to. Making steps of repentance. you cannot have true repentance if you are still walking toward that thing you have repented of. Repent means to turn away from one thing and toward Him.

No it is not possible for a practicing homosexual to love Jesus as you would say, Jesus said if you love me you will keep my commandments. 
This man does not have a predisposition problem but a sin problem and only Christ can deliver him, but he must repent from his sin....

It's never easy dealing with tough issues.
Pastor Jeremy
Community Church


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## ambush80 (Aug 11, 2011)

pjeremy said:


> Jesus dealt with hard issues with much compassion. We should be very compassionate with people when dealing with their sin, and we must look at their growth to see if they are producing fruit. If people in any sin are not producing the fruit of progressing out of it then we have to do the hard issues such as church discipline. Paul said that a little bit of sin left unattended has the the potential to affect the entire congregation.
> 
> I don't think that we can handle this subject in a way that pleases everyone, but we should handle it in a way that is pleasing to Christ.
> 
> ...



The UCC Church seems to be producing much "fruit".  They are really some of my favorite Christians.  They are, in general very peaceful, civic minded and compassionate.  They really seem like they want to please the Lord (at least their version of Him).

I like them (second only to the Amish).


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## JB0704 (Aug 11, 2011)

pjeremy said:


> If this man is a professing brother then according to verses 9-13 action must be taken to remove his sphere of influence from the church, that is if he will not come out of his sin.



I think if a church is going to apply discipline to gay folks, they should make sure they apply it to all sins, or they are like the Pharisees in John 8.



pjeremy said:


> No it is not possible for a practicing homosexual to love Jesus as you would say, Jesus said if you love me you will keep my commandments.



Do any of us keep all of his commandments all the time, or was Jesus referring to a _desire_ to live according to his commandments.  If it is an absolute statement, then nobody loves Jesus.



pjeremy said:


> This man does not have a predisposition problem but a sin problem and only Christ can deliver him, but he must repent from his sin....



I am certain you are aware that whether he is a case of nature or nurture, the human mind "cements" thought patterns at a young age.  There is a biological reason why you can't teach an old dog new tricks.  In the same manner, there is a biological reason why a person who is attracted to the same sex has difficulty changing that preference regardless of how that preference got there.

My favorite Bible story is John 8.  After Jesus puts the "religious" folks in their place for being judgmental, he tells the lady he does not condemn her before he tells her to go and sin no more (repent).


----------



## BT Charlie (Aug 11, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I think if a church is going to apply discipline to gay folks, they should make sure they apply it to all sins, or they are like the Pharisees in John 8.
> 
> My favorite Bible story is John 8.  After Jesus puts the "religious" folks in their place for being judgmental, he tells the lady he does not condemn her before he tells her to go and sin no more (repent).



JB -- I don't disagree with your opinion of church discipline, and also like this passage you referenced.  I, too, thought it had some application here.

This is a very difficult subject, and we've strayed a bit from CH's OP.  But it has been very meaningful and I thank CH for brining this up and each of you for commenting.  

Jeremy, thank you particularly for your responses.  I sense your love of Christ, wisdom and the truth of the Word.

I wish accepting Christ meant we would all lose our capacity for darkness and quit sinning, quit letting our loved ones down, etc., but we know saints continue to sin.  

When this particular "hot button" issue is raised, I get the sense that some are not motivated to help gay persons live free from sin, including their sexual sins -- which we all have, perhaps -- but instead I sense a motivation to advocate that homosexuality is not a sin at all and to attack those who view it as such.  This is where I draw the line.  What I've missed because of this focus, however, is my need to be more empathetic, more grace-filled, more quiet and more thoughtful as to how sinners with these particular issues are reacting to their own perceptions of the world and the church.   Tough thread to get through, but a fruitful new beginning for me perhaps. 

If these discussions end with agreement that sinners -- including those who are gay --  should be encouraged to accept and receive Christ's mercy, and encouraged to go and sin no more, I'm particularly at peace.

God Bless.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 11, 2011)

BT Charlie said:


> When this particular "hot button" issue is raised, I get the sense that some are not motivated to help gay persons live free from sin, including their sexual sins -- which we all have, perhaps -- but instead I sense a motivation to advocate that homosexuality is not a sin at all and to attack those who view it as such.
> 
> If these discussions end with agreement that sinners -- including those who are gay --  should be encouraged to accept and receive Christ's mercy, and encouraged to go and sin no more, I'm particularly at peace.



I appreciate what you are saying BTC.  I am only advocating for compassion.  I have seen so much damage done in the name of "confronting sin" because those who did so did not consider how Jesus interacted with sinners, or recognize the sin in their own lives.  When a person is confronted the first thing they look for is hypocrisy in the accuser.  

I can also understand how a "sinner" would feel rejection from the church.  If they feel that way, rejected, why would they want to buy what the Church is selling, so to speak?  There are other many "sins" which rarely get confronted or disciplined, such as gossip, but are quite harmful.  It just seems that gay people are an easy target, and there is little compassion for how difficult it is to be "wired" that way, and still try to live for Jesus.


----------



## pjeremy (Aug 11, 2011)

*PJeremy*



BT Charlie said:


> JB -- I don't disagree with your opinion of church discipline, and also like this passage you referenced.  I, too, thought it had some application here.
> 
> This is a very difficult subject, and we've strayed a bit from CH's OP.  But it has been very meaningful and I thank CH for brining this up and each of you for commenting.
> 
> ...



I agree with you 100%, the tough thing is trying to present the gospel to anyone who is in sin in a way hopefully they will receive it with out compromising the Truths found within the book.

That's tough, and I'll be the first to admit I need His Grace in figuring this out.

Pastor Jeremy
Community Church


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## christianhunter (Aug 11, 2011)

Okay,I'm not going to quote anyone.I'm not going to point fingers at anyone.First of all,I do not know the man in question,never have met him.I was going on the question my daughter in law asked,and not the man in general.How can I pass judgment on someone I don't even know.I don't know whether he is gay or not,neither does my daughter in law.Her question was,"How can he be a preacher,if he is gay."(IF-mind you)...I don't know why they think he is.

I have read a few posts,where the writers of said post remove themself from the sin factor.I really would like to see,one of these people just blatantly,go ahead and get on here and say,"They have NO sin in their life!"...I mean really,who on here did not commit a sin today,yesterday,or this week?
A couple of you get on here and come across as self righteous.A couple of you seem that you are like "The Pharisee,who is thanking GOD,he is not like everyone else."
I think all of us realize we are the publican,"prostate on the ground,not daring to lift his eyes to Heaven,begging THE LORD for forgiveness."...THE LORD JESUS,asked the question,"Which one of these men,left here forgiven?"


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## Ronnie T (Aug 11, 2011)

BT Charlie said:


> Ronnie and Jeremy -- God bless you guys. Excellent points.  I would like to know more about the "appropriate" or scripturally bullet proof manner to love this politically organized minority group of sinners while still being able to hate their sin without being labeled legalistic, hypocritical, etc.  How do you guys think Jesus would publicly deal with this today? Thanks



From what Jesus has exposed concerning himself, I believe Jesus would be coming down very heavy on church leaders who aren't standing strong.  Jesus didn't have a lot of patience for leaders who didn't deal properly with God's will as it applies to the church and the world.

I also believe that Jesus would demonstrate much patience with homosexuals.  Jesus always wanted the sinner to be able to react and receive God's grace and mercy.

Today, Christians and the church need to stand up to those leaders who would go against God's stance on sins and sinfulness.  Those leaders must be confronted by their own flock and all Christians everywhere.

But, as you've said, Christ's church needs to stop being so hostile towards homosexuals, drunkerds, and prostitutes.  Rather than condemning a prostitute to hel l as she stands on the sidewalk, the church needs to be working to make her familiar with the only begotten Son of God.  She needs to experience the living water of Jesus Christ.

Jesus didn't destroy the Samaritan woman and dump her body in the well!  He presented hope to her.  He allowed her to have a glimpse of His glory.  Then he asked her to go and sin no more.

The church (individually) seem to spend it's time condemning homosexuals rather than presenting Jesus to them.  The church then needs to help them see an end to their struggle with this sin.

The church needs the heart of Jesus.  Then it needs to be able to present the power of God which can overcome anything.

But it's going to be difficult to convert homosexuals when the church is telling them they're okay in God's eyes.

And Charlie, I think you have it all nailed down firm on this subject.


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## BT Charlie (Aug 11, 2011)

Ronnie and Jeremy, thanks again gentlemen.  I appreciate you sharing your insights and knowledge on a tough subject and via a tough format.  I learned much and have much more to learn.  Thanks again also to CH for this opportunity.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 11, 2011)

christianhunter said:


> Okay,I'm not going to quote anyone.I'm not going to point fingers at anyone.First of all,I do not know the man in question,never have met him.I was going on the question my daughter in law asked,and not the man in general.How can I pass judgment on someone I don't even know.I don't know whether he is gay or not,neither does my daughter in law.Her question was,"How can he be a preacher,if he is gay."(IF-mind you)...I don't know why they think he is.
> 
> I have read a few posts,where the writers of said post remove themself from the sin factor.I really would like to see,one of these people just blatantly,go ahead and get on here and say,"They have NO sin in their life!"...I mean really,who on here did not commit a sin today,yesterday,or this week?
> A couple of you get on here and come across as self righteous.A couple of you seem that you are like "The Pharisee,who is thanking GOD,he is not like everyone else."
> I think all of us realize we are the publican,"prostate on the ground,not daring to lift his eyes to Heaven,begging THE LORD for forgiveness."...THE LORD JESUS,asked the question,"Which one of these men,left here forgiven?"



You've begun a discussion that enabled those interested to post their views.  Some good things have been said and we've all been given a chance to think about this, then rethink it.

I'm glad you opened the discussion.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 11, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Some good things have been said and we've all been given a chance to think about this, then rethink it.



A recent, similar thread was also very good.  Unfortunately, it was deleted.


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## JFS (Aug 11, 2011)

pjeremy said:


> No it is not possible for a practicing homosexual to love Jesus as you would say, Jesus said if you love me you will keep my commandments.


Exactly what was Jesus commandment on this?

 Love thy brother?


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## Ronnie T (Aug 11, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> A recent, similar thread was also very good.  Unfortunately, it was deleted.



I remember that.  Not very long ago.


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## JB0704 (Aug 12, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> A recent, similar thread was also very good.  Unfortunately, it was deleted.



I deleted it because folks were saying pretty rude things after the debate was long finished, and I had zero desire to get back into it and re-explain my position.  Besides, that thread went nowhere, none of us really understood what the other was trying to say.


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## pjeremy (Aug 12, 2011)

JFS said:


> Exactly what was Jesus commandment on this?
> 
> Love thy brother?



There are also many commandments for disciplining our brothers, besides Christs words for the practicing homosexual was that no, and I repeat that no homosexual would inherit the kingdom. 

It's easy to accept the love commandments but hard to swallow the other ones. Please show me one instance in scripture Old Testament or New where Christ blessed the act of homosexuality or the homosexual, I cannot find one.  But there are several where He condemned this detestable act.....

Pastor Jeremy
Community Church


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## christianhunter (Aug 12, 2011)

pjeremy said:


> There are also many commandments for disciplining our brothers, besides Christs words for the practicing homosexual was that no, and I repeat that no homosexual would inherit the kingdom.
> 
> It's easy to accept the love commandments but hard to swallow the other ones. Please show me one instance in scripture Old Testament or New where Christ blessed the act of homosexuality or the homosexual, I cannot find one.  But there are several where He condemned this detestable act.....
> 
> ...



I'm in full agreement with you on this.This sin is different to me because it goes against the natural act of man.Sin is sin,but the other sins of the world are common,and do not go against the natural act of man.I have always thought in my opinion that,this sin may be demonic in nature.Someone will bring up murder,remember murder was the second sin after the Garden,disobedience being the first.Child molestation,incest,are all unnatural also.Homosexuality goes against THE LORDS commandment to replenish the earth.It is unnatural and it is now lawful to "marry" in some places?...this is my thought on it.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 12, 2011)

christianhunter said:


> I'm in full agreement with you on this.This sin is different to me because it goes against the natural act of man.Sin is sin,but the other sins of the world are common,and do not go against the natural act of man.I have always thought in my opinion that,this sin may be demonic in nature.Someone will bring up murder,remember murder was the second sin after the Garden,disobedience being the first.Child molestation,incest,are all unnatural also.Homosexuality goes against THE LORDS commandment to replenish the earth.It is unnatural and it is now lawful to "marry" in some places?...this is my thought on it.



I hope in their wedding ceremony no one says:  "what God has joined together let no one....."


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## pjeremy (Aug 13, 2011)

*PJeremy*



Ronnie T said:


> I hope in their wedding ceremony no one says:  "what God has joined together let no one....."



Amen...


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## JFS (Aug 13, 2011)

pjeremy said:


> But there are several where He condemned this detestable act.....



That's what I was asking for- the places in the Bible where Jesus talks about homosexuality.  Can you help me find them?

The Bible as a whole contains scores or references to sexual activity.  We disregard most it when convenient if it would affect us.  Even the words of Jesus himself, who's only comment I know of on these matters is about divorce and remarriage.  Then we strain to find some quote from some other lesser figure to get us off the hook.  But gays - hey now this one's easy, all we have to do is point the finger at others.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 13, 2011)

JFS said:


> That's what I was asking for- the places in the Bible where Jesus talks about homosexuality.  Can you help me find them?



It's in the same chapter where He talks about rape and incest.


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## pjeremy (Aug 13, 2011)

*PJeremy*



JFS said:


> That's what I was asking for- the places in the Bible where Jesus talks about homosexuality.  Can you help me find them?
> 
> The Bible as a whole contains scores or references to sexual activity.  We disregard most it when convenient if it would affect us.  Even the words of Jesus himself, who's only comment I know of on these matters is about divorce and remarriage.  Then we strain to find some quote from some other lesser figure to get us off the hook.  But gays - hey now this one's easy, all we have to do is point the finger at others.



*IT'S LONG, BUT YOU ASKED FOR IT. WE MUST STUDY THE BIBLE IN LIGHT OF THE ENTIRE BIBLE. WE CANNOT JUST PICK THE JESUS PASSAGES AND IGNORE THE REST OF SCRIPTURE, OR RIGHT THE OPPOSITE. **


Question: “Is there any place in the New Testament where Jesus actually condemned homosexuality? If so, I have not been able to find it. ...It seems to me that if the Savior didn’t say it was wrong, then neither should we.”

Answer: While it is true that there is no NT record of where Jesus explicitly stated that homosexuality is wrong, He did in fact condemn the behavior. A careful study of the Bible will bear this out. Please read the following Bible passages and then consider the questions which follow:

1. And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ “and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh?’” (Matt. 19:4.)

Questions: What did Jesus say about God’s creative work? Did He make Adam and Joseph? Did He create male and male, or did He create male and female? According to this passage, what has been God’s plan for sexual union [one flesh] since the beginning of time? Was His plan for a male partner to be joined to another male partner, or was it for a husband to be united to his wife? According to this passage, is a man to cleave to his male partner, or to his spouse?

Consider: Since Jesus approved of His Father’s plan [i.e., one man, one woman, one flesh,] could we correctly say that Jesus condemned homosexuality?

2. “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?” (John 5:46-47.)

Questions: What law was Jesus born under? What law did He live under? Answer: The Law of Moses (cf. Gal. 4:4.) Did Jesus endorse and follow the Law of Moses? What did the Law of Moses say about homosexuality? (Lev. 18:22; 20:13; Deut. 23:17.)

Consider: Since Jesus was born and lived under the Law of Moses, and since He endorsed the Law of Moses, and since the Law of Moses explicitly condemned homosexuality, then could we correctly say that Jesus also condemned it?

3. “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for he will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you” (John 16:12-15.)

Questions: What did Jesus say the Holy Spirit would do for the apostles? Answer: Guide them into all truth (v. 13.) When/as the Holy Spirit guided the apostles into all truth; would He speak on His own authority? Answer: No, He would speak on the authority of Christ (v. 14.) What did Jesus say the Holy Spirit would do in verse 14? Answer: “He (i.e., the Holy Spirit) will take of what is Mine (i.e., Christ’s) and declare it to you” (i.e., the apostles.)

Consider: Since 1) the apostles would be guided into all truth by the Holy Spirit, and since 2) the Holy Spirit would not speak on His own authority but instead would speak on the authority of Christ, and since 3) the Holy Spirit would take of what was Christ’s and declare it to the apostles, then by WHOSE AUTHORITY would the apostle’s speak/write/teach when the Holy Spirit guided them into all truth? Answer: Christ’s.

Question: What did the apostle Paul [by Christ’s authority] say about the practice of homosexuality? (Rom. 1:26-27; 1 Cor. 6:9-10.)

Yes, Jesus did condemn homosexuality in His Word. The good news is, “there is hope for the homosexual; he has reason to believe there is hope for a brighter future. Paul states that some at Corinth had engaged in homosexual acts, but they had been washed, sanctified and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus (1 Cor. 6:9-11.) The same can happen today. As anyone who repents of a sin, the homosexual can be forgiven. He can experience the same freedom and joy that any other sinner knows when he becomes a Christian. The Bible condemns homosexual sex but clearly states that non-practicing homosexuals can be saved*


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## JFS (Aug 13, 2011)

pjeremy said:


> it is true that there is no NT record of where Jesus explicitly stated that homosexuality is wrong



And there you have it.  The rest is all a shameful stretch.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 13, 2011)

JFS said:


> And there you have it.  The rest is all a shameful stretch.



Can you point me to the passage where Jesus says rape and incest is wrong?


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## centerpin fan (Aug 13, 2011)

JFS said:


> That's what I was asking for- the places in the Bible where Jesus talks about homosexuality.  Can you help me find them?



To expand on my previous comment, there is no verse where Jesus specifically condemns homosexuality, just as there is no verse where he specifically condemns rape or incest.

And if there were a verse where Jesus specifically condemns homosexuality, the gay apologists would explain it away just like they expain away crystal clear passages like Romans 1.

The bottom line is they don't care what the Bible says on the subject.  The religious liberals who promote the idea that homosexuality is not sin treat the Bible in the same way that political liberals treat the Constitution:  that it is a living, breathing document whose meaning changes with the whims of society.  On homosexuality, these people substituted the NY Times editorial page for the Bible a long time ago.


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## JFS (Aug 13, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> To expand on my previous comment, there is no verse where Jesus specifically condemns homosexuality, just as there is no verse where he specifically condemns rape or incest.



I think those are instructive examples so I'll play.

For rape, let's go with Luke 6:31.   It surely would preclude rape. But it likely wouldn't address homosexuality (but maybe would look askance at homophobia).  So I think Jesus does have that one covered.

Incest requires a little more thought.  It is not a prototypical sin.  There are also a number of OT big wigs who are guilty, including Father Abraham himself.  So what is at stake here?

Religions typically contain rules that help govern a society.  Frequently these include rules for channeling sexual activity and reproduction in a way that is beneficial for society.  I would say incest is one of those rules.  And to the extent you consider natural law to be synonymous with God's law, then you could say incest violates God's law in that it produces a bad result for society.  

There may have been a time when we needed all hands on deck in the reproductive department, or at least a time when the Jewish people were competing with other civilizations and relative population size affected military power.  I could see why you wouldn't want the boys distracted from their reproductive duty (could also apply to self-xxx).  But in 2011, I don't think we need to keep pushing for a larger population.  In fact, things that reduce overpopulation could be favored, or at least they should not be the social pariahs they once were.   So if the disposition occurs naturally, has no victims, and doesn't hurt society, I think it is hard to say it violates God's law.  So that leaves us with a behavior that doesn't violate Jesus' teachings and doesn't break any of God's natural laws (like incest does).  It only seems to trouble people who's thoughts and lives are governed by medieval rabbis.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 13, 2011)

JFS said:


> For rape, let's go with Luke 6:21.



Here is Luke 6:21

_Blessed are you who hunger now, 
   for you will be satisfied. 
Blessed are you who weep now, 
   for you will laugh. _

Are you sure this is the verse you're talking about?


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## centerpin fan (Aug 13, 2011)

JFS said:


> Incest requires a little more thought.  It is not a prototypical sin.  There are also a number of OT big wigs who are guilty, including Father Abraham himself.  So what is at stake here?
> 
> Religions typically contain rules that help govern a society.  Frequently these include rules for channeling sexual activity and reproduction in a way that is beneficial for society.  I would say incest is one of those rules.  And to the extent you consider natural law to be synonymous with God's law, then you could say incest violates God's law in that it produces a bad result for society.
> 
> There may have been a time when we needed all hands on deck in the reproductive department, or at least a time when the Jewish people were competing with other civilizations and relative population size affected military power.  I could see why you wouldn't want the boys distracted from their reproductive duty (could also apply to self-xxx).  But in 2011, I don't think we need to keep pushing for a larger population.  In fact, things that reduce overpopulation could be favored, or at least they should not be the social pariahs they once were.   So if the disposition occurs naturally, has no victims, and doesn't hurt society, I think it is hard to say it violates God's law.  So that leaves us with a behavior that doesn't violate Jesus' teachings and doesn't break any of God's natural laws (like incest does).  It only seems to trouble people who's thoughts and lives are governed by medieval rabbis.



But does Jesus specifically condemn incest?

No.


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## JFS (Aug 13, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> Here is Luke 6:21
> Are you sure this is the verse you're talking about?



No, I said 6:31.


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## JFS (Aug 13, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> But does Jesus specifically condemn incest?
> 
> No.



I'm not the one contending those rules do or don't keep you from accepting Christ as your savior so you'll have to take that up with someone else.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 13, 2011)

JFS said:


> No, I said 6:31.



My bad.

OK, verse 31 is the "do unto others" passage.  Again, Jesus doesn't specifically mention rape.  You can't just say, "If Jesus didn't mention it, it's not a sin."

I think adultery is the only sexual sin that Jesus mentions by name.  As a good Jew, though, he was well aware of all the others, including homosexuality.  He didn't have to list them all.  It was common knowledge to his audience that homosexuality was a sin.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 13, 2011)

JFS said:


> I'm not the one contending those rules do or don't keep you from accepting Christ as your savior so you'll have to take that up with someone else.



OK, but you did ask for a specific verse showing Jesus' condemnation of homosexuality.  As I said above, you won't find it, just as you won't find Him condemning rape or incest.


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## JFS (Aug 13, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> Jesus doesn't specifically mention rape.  You can't just say, "If Jesus didn't mention it, it's not a sin."



I'm not saying that and I think you have some of this backwards.  My objection is to the position that "gays can't be Christians" and how much attention that one little issue gets from so many people.  You can quibble over what was or wasn't considered a sin at some point in time but that misses the point.  There are a tremendous number of prescriptions and prohibitions in the OT, some of which we no longer see as that bad.  It would have been "common knowledge to his audience" that paying or charging interest was a sin.  But we don't try to exclude everyone with a mortgage or a bank account from Jesus' church.  And our definitions of some sins, like your incest example, have changed over time.   So while I don't think it is a sin, I also don't think people are precluded from accepting Jesus even it was considered a sin by some medieval rabbis.

When I try to determine who Jesus would accept as a follower, I think his message was inclusive if your heart is in the right place.  Rapists are definitely going against his express teaching whether he used that word or not.  If you are intentionally hurting someone like that your heart is not with Jesus.  And for much of the rest of it, I think many are just being a bunch of Pharisees parsing old words without grasping the true meaning of Jesus message of love and redemption.  Acting with love is more important than who you love.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 13, 2011)

JFS said:


> Acting with love is more important than who you love.



Telling someone that their sin is not sin is not loving them.  I used this analogy in the other gay thread, but it's worth repeating:  if an alcoholic walks into a rehab clinic, handing him a six pack of beer is not a loving act.  Likewise, telling a sinner they don't need to repent is not a loving act.

For 2,000 years, the church has been referred to as a "spiritual hospital".  It's where spiritually sick people go to get well, and repentance is part of the healing process.  Denying repentance to the sinner is like denying chemo to the cancer patient.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the rest.


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## JFS (Aug 13, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree on the rest.




Well, I didn't really expect to reach agreement. 



> if an alcoholic walks into a rehab clinic, handing him a six pack of beer is not a loving act



But that is just a goofy analog and insulting to a lot of good people.


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## pjeremy (Aug 13, 2011)

*PJeremy*



JFS said:


> And there you have it.  The rest is all a shameful stretch.



You cannot stretch the bible if you interpret scripture with the rest of scripture, but you can try to ignore the rest of scripture, but guess what, you saying it is not true does not make it not true. We all will stand face to face wit the thrice holy God and I would not want to be in the shoes of any one who tried to discredit his word. 

I am teaching our church how to do proper bible study, I would welcome you to come and learn how..........

Pastor Jeremy
Community Church


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## centerpin fan (Aug 13, 2011)

JFS said:


> But that is just a goofy analog and insulting to a lot of good people.



I disagree on both counts.


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## JFS (Aug 13, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> I disagree on both counts.



Well, duh.  I suppose that's why you said it the first time.


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## christianhunter (Aug 14, 2011)

Leviticus says all you need to know about Adultry,homosexuality,and incest.To those who think Scripture does not mention it.Laying man with man,may not have been called homosexual,in Scripture,but how much common sense does it take?
Effeminate is in Scripture,what would you think that meant?Sugar coating Scripture is one thing that has the world in the shape it's in now.


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## pjeremy (Aug 14, 2011)

*PJeremy*



christianhunter said:


> Leviticus says all you need to know about Adultry,homosexuality,and incest.To those who think Scripture does not mention it.Laying man with man,may not been called homosexual,in Scripture,but how much common sense does it take?
> Effeminate is in Scripture,what would you think that meant.Sugar coating Scripture is one thing that has the world in the shape it's in now.



It is sad to see how many Christians are twisting scripture to please others. I am glad you said what you did. You're right, it does not take much common sense to understand what God said, and meant about homosexuals. Hopefully more true men and women of God will take a stand and defend the Gospel....

Pastor Jeremy
Community Church


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## Lead Poison (Aug 15, 2011)

pjeremy said:


> It is sad to see how many Christians are twisting scripture to please others. I am glad you said what you did. You're right, it does not take much common sense to understand what God said, and meant about homosexuals. Hopefully more true men and women of God will take a stand and defend the Gospel....
> 
> Pastor Jeremy
> Community Church



No matter how they twist it, homosexuality has been, is and will always be considered an abomination to God!

The truth is the truth. There is NO place for homosexuality that is acceptable to God. This means Christians should NEVER accept or rationalize it either. 

It is a sinful CHOICE.


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## pjeremy (Aug 16, 2011)

*PJeremy*



Lead Poison said:


> No matter how they twist it, homosexuality has been, is and will always be considered an abomination to God!
> 
> The truth is the truth. There is NO place for homosexuality that is acceptable to God. This means Christians should NEVER accept or rationalize it either.
> 
> It is a sinful CHOICE.



You are so right my friend.......


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