# Heaven and Free Will



## dexrusjak (Apr 17, 2012)

Questions for those who believe in Heaven...

Will there be free will in Heaven?  In other words, will people in Heaven be able to choose to sin if they are so inclined?

If so, then what will their punishment for this sin be?  Will they be cast out of Heaven like Satan?

If not, then aren't people in Heaven just robots?  I've heard the argument many times that God gives us the gift of free will here on Earth because having free will is preferable to not having free will.  If this is the case, and Heaven is a better place than Earth, it would make no since for people in Heaven to not have free will.

I've heard the claim that people in Heaven will have free will but will be so busy praising God that they will never choose to sin (although they _could_).  In my opinion, that's not free will at all.  It's an allusion of free will.

What are your thoughts?


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## rjcruiser (Apr 17, 2012)

Heaven will be the ultimate in perfection.  Sin is brought about by imperfection.  Therefore, sin cannot and will not exist in Heaven.


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## centerpin fan (Apr 17, 2012)

dexrusjak said:


> Will there be free will in Heaven?



Enjoy.

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=600403


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 17, 2012)

I can only hope to have free will in Heaven. I would hate to live an eternity with an itinerary; 9:00am enjoy the fountains, 10:00am enjoy the gardens, 11:00am listen to the chour sing, etc. Although I know it's better than the alternative. Maybe we could have free will in Heaven without sin as an option.


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## bullethead (Apr 17, 2012)

To heck with free will, I am hoping heaven has a thousand yard range, an armory, and free ammo.


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## TheBishop (Apr 17, 2012)

bullethead said:


> To heck with free will, I am hoping heaven has a thousand yard range, an armory, and free ammo.



No I have seen heaven in a dream.   It is an endless spring morning, and the top water bite is infinite.


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## bullethead (Apr 17, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> No I have seen heaven in a dream.   It is an endless spring morning, and the top water bite is infinite.



Keep your head down, I have no problem if I have to shoot a thousand yards over a lake!


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 17, 2012)

Randy Alcorn writes some interesting books & articles on Heaven. He thinks we will have free will in our human bodies  while in Heaven.

http://www.epm.org/resources/2010/Feb/1/will-we-have-opportunity-sin-heaven/

In this link he describes Heaven:
http://www.epm.org/resources/2010/Feb/4/light-eternity-59-excerpts/


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## TheBishop (Apr 17, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Keep your head down, I have no problem if I have to shoot a thousand yards over a lake!


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## Ronnie T (Apr 17, 2012)

At the judgment there will be a "new" heaven.  No sin, no unhappiness, nothing negative.
I don't know about the fishing, but I'm hopeful.


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## StriperAddict (Apr 17, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Randy Alcorn writes some interesting books & articles on Heaven. He thinks we will have free will in our human bodies  while in Heaven.
> 
> http://www.epm.org/resources/2010/Feb/1/will-we-have-opportunity-sin-heaven/
> 
> ...



X2 on Randy's books. You may not agree on everything but he gives you reason to consider heaven's greatness.  

Looks like a good 2nd link on his thoughts, too.


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## StriperAddict (Apr 17, 2012)

I thought this was an excellent quote from the link:

To derail us, all Satan needs to do is minimize our passion for two  
things—the person of God and the place of God. 
A. W. Tozer said, Let no one apologize for the powerful  emphasis Christianity lays 

upon the doctrine of the world to come. Right  there lies its 

immense superiority to everything else within the whole  sphere 

of human thought or experience....We do well to think of the 

long  tomorrow.

The greatest weakness of the western church today is arguable our  
failure to think of the long tomorrow—to take seriously the reality 
that  Heaven is our home. Out of this springs our love affair with this 
world  and our failure to live now in light of eternity.


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## Michael F. Gray (Apr 17, 2012)

This corrupt flesh will be replaced with an incorruptable body like as Jesus had, before we get to Heaven. We will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, the Trump of God shall sound, and the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we which are alive shall meet him in the air.


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## dexrusjak (Apr 17, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Enjoy.
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=600403



Good stuff.  Thanks for posting this link.


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## dexrusjak (Apr 17, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> At the judgment there will be a "new" heaven.  No sin, no unhappiness, nothing negative.
> I don't know about the fishing, but I'm hopeful.



This brings another question to mind...if there is no unhappiness in Heaven, will those of you who make it know about the pain and torture those of us in He11 are enduring?  Will a mother in Heaven feel no sympathy for her son who is in He11?  Does she not know of his suffering?  Is his memory forever erased from her mind?  If so, she's not really herself anymore, is she?  In fact, if she knows of his suffering but feels no sadness and sorrow, then she is not her true self.  She can't be.

Based on replies thus far (and those of the Christians in the thread linked above), it seems as if Heaven is a place in which people's minds are programmed for a certain, artificial way of thinking and bodies are not free to act as they wish.  Doesn't sound very "Heavenly" to me.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 17, 2012)

dexrusjak said:


> This brings another question to mind...if there is no unhappiness in Heaven, will those of you who make it know about the pain and torture those of us in He11 are enduring?  Will a mother in Heaven feel no sympathy for her son who is in He11?  Does she not know of his suffering?  Is his memory forever erased from her mind?  If so, she's not really herself anymore, is she?  In fact, if she knows of his suffering but feels no sadness and sorrow, then she is not her true self.  She can't be.
> 
> Based on replies thus far (and those of the Christians in the thread linked above), it seems as if Heaven is a place in which people's minds are programmed for a certain, artificial way of thinking and bodies are not free to act as they wish.  Doesn't sound very "Heavenly" to me.


By the time you get to Heaven the game of life will be over. You will be free to choose your daily activities in Heaven like on a cruise ship. Your mind will be set free of negative thoughts. You will not suffer from PTSD.
Now the question would be, do you have free will in He11?


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## ambush80 (Apr 17, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> At the judgment there will be a "new" heaven.  No sin, no unhappiness, nothing negative.
> I don't know about the fishing, but I'm hopeful.



There is fishing in Heaven except the fish feels no pain nor fear for it's life.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 17, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> There is fishing in Heaven except the fish feels no pain nor fear for it's life.



We will be able to eat in Heaven so where will this food come from? Heaven will be like a grandeur earth.


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## Ronnie T (Apr 18, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> There is fishing in Heaven except the fish feels no pain nor fear for it's life.



30 lb bass on 6 lb test.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 18, 2012)

dexrusjak said:


> This brings another question to mind...if there is no unhappiness in Heaven, will those of you who make it know about the pain and torture those of us in He11 are enduring?  Will a mother in Heaven feel no sympathy for her son who is in He11?  Does she not know of his suffering?  Is his memory forever erased from her mind?  If so, she's not really herself anymore, is she?  In fact, if she knows of his suffering but feels no sadness and sorrow, then she is not her true self.  She can't be.
> 
> Based on replies thus far (and those of the Christians in the thread linked above), it seems as if Heaven is a place in which people's minds are programmed for a certain, artificial way of thinking and bodies are not free to act as they wish.



Salvation is being born into Gods kingdom, hence Born again. Those that have not been born again and cast into - he11 will not be known by us, for they were never born.I have one earthly brother and no sisters...I can't tell you about my sister I never knew her because she was never born.
However those that find their way to he11 will be able to look up and see us all praising and worshipping our God, we will be the only people they will see, as he11 is a lonely place.
You may not think that's a fair deal, but what else could God do, He's already given his son up for sacrifice? It's our choice!


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## dexrusjak (Apr 18, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> Salvation is being born into Gods kingdom, hence Born again. Those that have not been born again and cast into - he11 will not be known by us, for they were never born.I have one earthly brother and no sisters...I can't tell you about my sister I never knew her because she was never born.
> However those that find their way to he11 will be able to look up and see us all praising and worshipping our God, we will be the only people they will see, as he11 is a lonely place.
> You may not think that's a fair deal, but what else could God do, He's already given his son up for sacrifice? It's our choice!



What really makes you _you_?  What makes me _me_?  Isn't it all the life experiences, relationships, thoughts, emotions, etc. that make up a person?  If my mother (who is a devout Christian) makes it to Heaven while I (an atheist) roast in He11, will she not feel sympathy and sorrow for her son, whom she dearly loves.  If it is as you say, and she is unaware of my ever having existed, then I contend her Heavenly self is not her _true_ self.  She will be like one whose brain has been manipulated by God to believe a certain way, namely that she never had a son.  She will be brainwashed to believe in something that isn't true.  In other words, she will not be free.  Mentally, she will be held captive by whatever thoughts and beliefs God sees fit for her to have.  She will be little more than a robot.

As far as your last question is concerned, not to derail the thread too much, but if there is a god, then there is a whole heck of a lot he could do rather than reverting to eternal torture.  He11's not even a very creative concept.  It's almost as if ignorant, bronze-age men came up with it rather than an all-knowing, all-powerful being.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 18, 2012)

dexrusjak said:


> What really makes you _you_?  What makes me _me_?  Isn't it all the life experiences, relationships, thoughts, emotions, etc. that make up a person?  If my mother (who is a devout Christian) makes it to Heaven while I (an atheist) roast in He11, will she not feel sympathy and sorrow for her son, whom she dearly loves.  If it is as you say, and she is unaware of my ever having existed, then I contend her Heavenly self is not her _true_ self.  She will be like one whose brain has been manipulated by God to believe a certain way, namely that she never had a son.  She will be brainwashed to believe in something that isn't true.  In other words, she will not be free.  Mentally, she will be held captive by whatever thoughts and beliefs God sees fit for her to have.  She will be little more than a robot.
> 
> As far as your last question is concerned, not to derail the thread too much, but if there is a god, then there is a whole heck of a lot he could do rather than reverting to eternal torture.  He11's not even a very creative concept.  It's almost as if ignorant, bronze-age men came up with it rather than an all-knowing, all-powerful being.



This is just my take on it...There's many mysteries God chose for us to not know on this side, He gave us all the knowledge we need to get there, and then those mysteries will be answered....and some he will answer directly to us if we humbly ask.Whatever it is, that's caused your unbelief I hope God will reveal himself to you, so you too can enjoy being a child of the King.


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## mtnwoman (May 2, 2012)

Heaven will be like the garden of eden, before sin. There will be no sin, no sickness, no tears. We will know our loved ones. 

We will have a perfect earth. We will have perfect food. We will be able to fish, hunt, lay on the beach, maybe even fly with the eagles. We will have dominion over the animals and over the earth. Everything will be perfect.

We won't be playing harps, that's that the angels that will be doing that....I guess if we want to we can...we will have the desires of our hearts. It will be beyond our wildest imagination. I hope to swim the deepest oceans and climb the highest mountains....eat the biggest trout and the best quail and the fattest turkey. We will all be in fellowship together. Maybe we will be like the amish and live off the fat of the land and help each other build our homes/mansions. No robbers, no evil, no guns, no money, everything is provided for us. Picnics by the lake.......I know I can't wait. Whatever it is, I can't wait to see the face of my Jesus, my saviour, my redeemer, my peacegiver, my heart mender, my healer, my blesser, the lover of my soul, my mind keeper, my husband, my protector......we will sin no more...we will be perfect, body, soul and spirit......and I won't be forever seperated from those I love.


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## mtnwoman (May 2, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> By the time you get to Heaven the game of life will be over. You will be free to choose your daily activities in Heaven like on a cruise ship. Your mind will be set free of negative thoughts. You will not suffer from PTSD.
> Now the question would be, do you have free will in He11?



Nope, you ain't gonna have nuttin' there.....not even a rusty fishin' hook.  ;(


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## atlashunter (May 3, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> Salvation is being born into Gods kingdom, hence Born again. Those that have not been born again and cast into - he11 will not be known by us, for they were never born.I have one earthly brother and no sisters...I can't tell you about my sister I never knew her because she was never born.
> However those that find their way to he11 will be able to look up and see us all praising and worshipping our God, we will be the only people they will see, as he11 is a lonely place.
> You may not think that's a fair deal, but what else could God do, He's already given his son up for sacrifice? It's our choice!



Hmmm... for people who supposedly are dealing with what they claim to be reality and not fantasy they sure have a hard time getting their stories straight. According to Tertullian you'll be able to see and hear the unbelievers agonizing in the flames from heaven. He was looking forward to the experience.

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2010/01/front-row-seats-in-- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH --can-you-picture.html


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## atlashunter (May 3, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Heaven will be like the garden of eden, before sin. There will be no sin, no sickness, no tears. We will know our loved ones.
> 
> We will have a perfect earth. We will have perfect food. We will be able to fish, hunt, lay on the beach, maybe even fly with the eagles. We will have dominion over the animals and over the earth. Everything will be perfect.
> 
> We won't be playing harps, that's that the angels that will be doing that....I guess if we want to we can...we will have the desires of our hearts. It will be beyond our wildest imagination. I hope to swim the deepest oceans and climb the highest mountains....eat the biggest trout and the best quail and the fattest turkey. We will all be in fellowship together. Maybe we will be like the amish and live off the fat of the land and help each other build our homes/mansions. No robbers, no evil, no guns, no money, everything is provided for us. Picnics by the lake.......I know I can't wait. Whatever it is, I can't wait to see the face of my Jesus, my saviour, my redeemer, my peacegiver, my heart mender, my healer, my blesser, the lover of my soul, my mind keeper, my husband, my protector......we will sin no more...we will be perfect, body, soul and spirit......and I won't be forever seperated from those I love.



"Key of G boys"

One evening as the sun went down
And the jungle fires were burning,
Down the track came a hobo hiking,
And he said, "Boys, I'm not turning
I'm headed for a land that's far away
Besides the crystal fountains
So come with me, we'll go and see
The Big Rock Candy Mountains

In the Big Rock Candy Mountains,
There's a land that's fair and bright,
Where the handouts grow on bushes
And you sleep out every night.
Where the boxcars all are empty
And the sun shines every day
And the birds and the bees
And the cigarette trees
The lemonade springs
Where the bluebird sings
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains.

In the Big Rock Candy Mountains
All the cops have wooden legs
And the bulldogs all have rubber teeth
And the hens lay soft-boiled eggs
The farmers' trees are full of fruit
And the barns are full of hay
Oh I'm bound to go
Where there ain't no snow
Where the rain don't fall
The winds don't blow
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains.

In the Big Rock Candy Mountains
You never change your socks
And the little streams of alcohol
Come trickling down the rocks
The brakemen have to tip their hats
And the railway bulls are blind
There's a lake of stew
And of whiskey too
You can paddle all around it
In a big canoe
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains

In the Big Rock Candy Mountains,
The jails are made of tin.
And you can walk right out again,
As soon as you are in.
There ain't no short-handled shovels,
No axes, saws nor picks,
I'm bound to stay
Where you sleep all day,
Where they hung the jerk
That invented work
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains.
....
I'll see you all this coming fall
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains


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## atlashunter (May 3, 2012)

Hey dex, not sure if you've noticed but your original question remains unanswered.


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## mtnwoman (May 3, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Hmmm... for people who supposedly are dealing with what they claim to be reality and not fantasy they sure have a hard time getting their stories straight. According to Tertullian you'll be able to see and hear the unbelievers agonizing in the flames from heaven. He was looking forward to the experience.



Well there's no tears in heaven, so no we won't be able to see or hear anything bad. And we won't even know about or remember our loved ones who did not come to heaven...there is no more tears or sadness....what would be the point of heaven if we still had to suffer the same pain we have on earth? We won't  be on big rock candy mountain either or perhaps we will....I like candy....nor are we on the highway to hedoublehockysticks today.....but I believe we will still 'rock' on!  We are not robots now nor will we ever be....we will just be in a perfect world where we can all enjoy the desires of our hearts without being subjected to the sins and cruelty of others and suffer the consequences of our own sins of the flesh, nor have to fight the temptations of satan and his legion of the antichrist and be subjected to their mockery and critisizm.

We will be filled with the joy of the Lord and every day will be a happy day.....come rain or shine and I like both.


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## mtnwoman (May 3, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> 30 lb bass on 6 lb test.



Launch out into the deep...cast your nets.....yuuuuuuum......you clean 'em...I'll grill 'em.  We'll have a big  ol' continuous camp meetin'/camp out/chewin' the fat/bring a dish/ keep the 'home' fires burnin' forever wedding supper of the Lamb!!!


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## mtnwoman (May 3, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Hey dex, not sure if you've noticed but your original question remains unanswered.



Well I thought I sort of answered it but I guess you'd have to see it from where I'm sittin' to get it. So i'll break it down. 

There is no sin in heaven....because there is no satan.

But yes I believe we have free will. But there is no sin, so sin is not in our hearts...we will have  pure hearts.

We will have the desires of our hearts. The desires of our hearts will be  different than the desires of someone elses.

My free will may be to ( and this is using my imagination ok?) grow the best tomatoes in the county(which I'd like to do now)...I'd like to be able to make and give my jewelry away (which I'd like to do now, but can't afford to), I'd like to make my famous,lol, NY style chili for anyone who wants some and give it away. While someone else's free will might be to go fishing or go hunting or grow a big garden or climb mount everest.

Free will will be sin free because there is no satan....that doesn't seem too hard to me for anyone to figure out or understand.

Course that's just my opinion.......


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## TheBishop (May 3, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Well I thought I sort of answered it but I guess you'd have to see it from where I'm sittin' to get it. So i'll break it down.
> 
> There is no sin in heaven....because there is no satan.
> 
> ...



If I have free will in heaven will I be able to choose to sin?  Or it just won't be considered a sin in heaven?


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## dexrusjak (May 3, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Heaven will be like the garden of eden, before sin. There will be no sin, no sickness, no tears. We will know our loved ones.
> 
> We will have a perfect earth. We will have perfect food. We will be able to fish, hunt, lay on the beach, maybe even fly with the eagles. We will have dominion over the animals and over the earth. Everything will be perfect.
> 
> We won't be playing harps, that's that the angels that will be doing that....I guess if we want to we can...we will have the desires of our hearts. It will be beyond our wildest imagination. I hope to swim the deepest oceans and climb the highest mountains....eat the biggest trout and the best quail and the fattest turkey. We will all be in fellowship together. Maybe we will be like the amish and live off the fat of the land and help each other build our homes/mansions. No robbers, no evil, no guns, no money, everything is provided for us. Picnics by the lake.......I know I can't wait. Whatever it is, I can't wait to see the face of my Jesus, my saviour, my redeemer, my peacegiver, my heart mender, my healer, my blesser, the lover of my soul, my mind keeper, my husband, my protector......we will sin no more...we will be perfect, body, soul and spirit......and I won't be forever seperated from those I love.



So, there will still be death in Heaven?  Hunting isn't hunting unless something dies.  

Where does your idea of Heaven come from?  Scripture?  Or are you just imagining what "your" perfect world would be like?  If another Christian's idea of a perfect world is different, what will their Heaven be like?  Does everyone get to make his/her own Heaven?


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## dexrusjak (May 3, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Hey dex, not sure if you've noticed but your original question remains unanswered.



Indeed it does.  It's difficult to rectify an obvious contradiction.

It seems that a Christian must believe one of the following:

a) My mother will see me burning in He11 and be miserable.
b) My mother will see me burning in He11 and not care.
c) My mother will see me burning in He11 and be glad.
d) My mother will not know that I ever existed.

If a. is true, Heaven isn't perfect bliss.
If b. or c. are true, my mother is NOT her true self.  She loves me too much to take either approach.  
If d. is true, then my mother (and all other citizens of Heaven) will be robots.


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## JB0704 (May 3, 2012)

dexrusjak said:


> a) My mother will see me burning in He11 and be miserable.
> b) My mother will see me burning in He11 and not care.
> c) My mother will see me burning in He11 and be glad.
> d) My mother will not know that I ever existed.



Are those the only options?

e) My mother will not be able to see he11.
f) I will not be in he11.
g) My mother will have an understanding of the grand scheme of things which will allow for additional emotional responses.

.....I'm not saying any of those are correct.  Just that it took me about 10 seconds to see your system is too narrow.


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## dexrusjak (May 3, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Are those the only options?
> 
> e) My mother will not be able to see he11.
> f) I will not be in he11.
> ...



The options I listed are the only ones I can see a Christian (who believes in He11) accepting. 

e) What does my mother being able to see He11 have to do with anything?  If I were being tortured in a POW camp, she wouldn't be able to "see" it happening, but just knowing it was taking place would be terrible for her.

f) Again, the Christians to which I am referring would see no way for me to not be in He11 since I share none of their beliefs about God, Jesus, etc.

g) This is just another way of saying that it won't bother my mother for me to be in He11.  Sorry, but if my being in He11 doesn't bother her, then she isn't her true self.


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## stringmusic (May 3, 2012)

dexrusjak said:


> The options I listed are the only ones I can see a Christian (who believes in He11) accepting.
> 
> e) What does my mother being able to see He11 have to do with anything?  If I were being tortured in a POW camp, she wouldn't be able to "see" it happening, but just knowing it was taking place would be terrible for her.
> 
> ...



This is an assumption you're making, she might not be herself now, only in Heaven will she be herself.


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## Michael F. Gray (May 3, 2012)

DEXRUSJAC, you've jumped off the deep end making statement(s) not based on facts. First, their will be No SIN in HEAVEN, the Bible is clear, God will allow nothing to enter that defiles it. Secondly, their will be no flesh. We will not enter as we are, but rather we will get a "glorfied" body like as Christ's. We will be changed, transformed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. TRUTH is we will have no desire to SIN in Heaven. Those who have that desire will find themselves having a differant destination.


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## Vmarsh (May 3, 2012)

Being in he11 wouldn't bother your mother at all if you didn't go.


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## atlashunter (May 3, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Well there's no tears in heaven, so no we won't be able to see or hear anything bad.



So Tertullian and Thomas Aquinas were wrong? How do you know this? What is your source of this knowledge that was apparently unavailable to them?




mtnwoman said:


> We are not robots now nor will we ever be....



So you'll have the same freedom to choose whether or not to obey God? How can you have that without sin? I thought there was sin in the world because God gives us free will? If there is still free will in heaven but no sin then why can't we have free will and no sin here on earth?





mtnwoman said:


> we will just be in a perfect world where we can all enjoy the desires of our hearts without being subjected to the sins and cruelty of others and suffer the consequences of our own sins of the flesh, nor have to fight the temptations of satan and his legion of the antichrist and be subjected to their mockery and critisizm.
> 
> We will be filled with the joy of the Lord and every day will be a happy day.....come rain or shine and I like both.


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## mtnwoman (May 3, 2012)

dexrusjak said:


> Indeed it does.  It's difficult to rectify an obvious contradiction.
> 
> It seems that a Christian must believe one of the following:
> 
> ...



There will no tears in heaven, no sickness, no pain, we will know each other as brothers and sisters in Christ, so your mother will never know you existed.

The rest of what I wrote is from my imagination of what heaven will be like.  Like the song "I Can Only Imagine". Scripture says we will have the desires of our hearts, which probably will change when I get to heaven, I'm speaking from an earthly mind now. We will never be robots.

That should answer Sir Bishop's question, too.


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## JB0704 (May 3, 2012)

dexrusjak said:


> e) What does my mother being able to see He11 have to do with anything?  If I were being tortured in a POW camp, she wouldn't be able to "see" it happening, but just knowing it was taking place would be terrible for her..



You are the one who used the word "see."  Not me.



dexrusjak said:


> f) Again, the Christians to which I am referring would see no way for me to not be in He11 since I share none of their beliefs about God, Jesus, etc..



Not really.  There are many who believe if you ever believed you got your ticket in.  That would include most posters in the AAA.



dexrusjak said:


> g) This is just another way of saying that it won't bother my mother for me to be in He11.  Sorry, but if my being in He11 doesn't bother her, then she isn't her true self.



Now you are changing things and adding variables.  Her "true self" wasn't part of the initial equation.  Which self would be her "true self?"  I am assuming you are very aware of Christian doctrine which believes everything in heaven is "new."  Which would indicate the emotional responses we have now are part of the environment we exist in.  I am guessing that heaven is a new environment, new body, the theory says it is sin free.  That being the case, one cannot predict what "true self" would be in this context.  Nor, can we define what such a person's reaction to this environment, and the awareness of his or her surroundings, might be.

Either way, I follow your point, but you still left it way too narrow.  I cna think of twenty other variables at the time.

As a Christian, I don't get heaven at all.  Every explanation I have ever heard or read about it sound very "strange" to me.  I am a "redneck," and would love to hunt and fish for all eternity.  How does that line up with what heaven will be, I have no clue.


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## atlashunter (May 3, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Well I thought I sort of answered it but I guess you'd have to see it from where I'm sittin' to get it. So i'll break it down.
> 
> There is no sin in heaven....because there is no satan.
> 
> ...






Michael F. Gray said:


> DEXRUSJAC, you've jumped off the deep end making statement(s) not based on facts. First, their will be No SIN in HEAVEN, the Bible is clear, God will allow nothing to enter that defiles it. Secondly, their will be no flesh. We will not enter as we are, but rather we will get a "glorfied" body like as Christ's. We will be changed, transformed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. TRUTH is we will have no desire to SIN in Heaven. Those who have that desire will find themselves having a differant destination.



If these statements are true then it isn't solely our free will (granted by God) that accounts for sin. It is free will combined with a sinful nature or propensity to sin which apparently God can and will remove when one goes to heaven. That only begs the question why not start at that point and in so doing eliminate the sin and suffering altogether that is supposedly so repulsive to this God? If it is possible for God to create a condition in which we have free will but no possibility of sin and that is the condition God desires why not just start at that point from the very beginning? Before you say it's Satan's fault, who created Satan? Who gave Satan free will and the nature to sin? Why not make Satan incapable of sin just as humans will be in heaven? Who set up creation so that Satan would have access to humans who were given both the capacity and propensity to sin? Who did this with the knowledge that eternal fire and suffering would result? Sounds to me like a pretty diabolical God. It's difficult to be unaccountable when your omnipotent and omniscient.


----------



## TheBishop (May 3, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> There will no tears in heaven, no sickness, no pain, we will know each other as brothers and sisters in Christ, so your mother will never know you existed.
> 
> The rest of what I wrote is from my imagination of what heaven will be like.  Like the song "I Can Only Imagine". Scripture says we will have the desires of our hearts, which probably will change when I get to heaven, I'm speaking from an earthly mind now. We will never be robots.
> 
> That should answer Sir Bishop's question, too.



It doesn't.  It does however suggest you have a healthy imagination.


----------



## JB0704 (May 3, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Like the song "I Can Only Imagine".



I thought that song was ok, until every funeral I attended over the last 5+ years had it played.  Now, it makes me sad.


----------



## dexrusjak (May 3, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> There will no tears in heaven, no sickness, no pain, we will know each other as brothers and sisters in Christ, so your mother will never know you existed.
> 
> The rest of what I wrote is from my imagination of what heaven will be like.  Like the song "I Can Only Imagine". Scripture says we will have the desires of our hearts, which probably will change when I get to heaven, I'm speaking from an earthly mind now. We will never be robots.
> 
> That should answer Sir Bishop's question, too.



If my mother never knows that I existed, then she is not her TRUE self.  Her true self (the person that she is today) is a collection of all her previous and current experiences, thoughts, actions, conditions, circumstances, etc.  I like to think that I am a pretty significant part of who she is (just as she is a very significant part of who I am).  If she loses all knowledge of me when she gets to Heaven, then she will lose a great many of her memories of her life on Earth.  This loss of memories will cause her to lose her TRUE identity.  Have you ever dealt with an Alzheimer's patient?  These people, in their current unfortunate states, are NOT their true selves.  Physically, they are the same people, but mentally and emotionally they are not themselves.  Is that what Heaven will be?  People existing without their memories of experiences on Earth?  If so, then in what way are they the same people?  You Christians claim that they will have different bodies; now it seems you claim that they will have different minds as well.  In what way will my mother be the same person in Heaven as she is on Earth?


----------



## JB0704 (May 3, 2012)

dexrusjak said:


> If my mother never knows that I existed, then she is not her TRUE self.  Her true self (the person that she is today) is a collection of all her previous and current experiences, thoughts, actions, conditions, circumstances, etc. ?



Now you are making the rules.  How do you know that is the universal understanding of a person's self (or soul, in Christian terms)? 



dexrusjak said:


> I like to think that I am a pretty significant part of who she is (just as she is a very significant part of who I am).  If she loses all knowledge of me when she gets to Heaven, then she will lose a great many of her memories of her life on Earth.  This loss of memories will cause her to lose her TRUE identity. ?



You missed it again.  You are defining what the "true" identity is.  My guess would be that if God exists, then your definition is irrelevant, and really when talking about heaven, we have to assume God is in the equation.


----------



## dexrusjak (May 3, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> You are the one who used the word "see."  Not me.
> 
> You're right.  My mistake.  I should have said, "experience" which would assume see, hear, know, etc.
> 
> ...



Remarks in blue.


----------



## JB0704 (May 3, 2012)

dexrusjak said:


> Could be that Heaven is nothing more than the product of wishful thinking for those who refuse to accept the reality of their own mortality.
> Remarks in blue.



We will see........


----------



## centerpin fan (May 3, 2012)

dexrusjak said:


> Could be that Heaven is nothing more than the product of wishful thinking for those who refuse to accept the reality of their own mortality.



Could be.  And the disbelief in heaven (and, more importantly, h-e-1-1) might be nothing more than the rationalization by one who sees no way of achieving the former and who fully deserves the latter.


----------



## atlashunter (May 3, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Could be.  And the disbelief in heaven (and, more importantly, h-e-1-1) might be nothing more than the rationalization by one who sees no way of achieving the former and who fully deserves the latter.



Disgusting and evil to even suggest that.


----------



## stringmusic (May 3, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Disgusting and evil to even suggest that.



Why?


----------



## centerpin fan (May 3, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Disgusting and evil to even suggest that.



Nope, just the truth.  I put myself at the top of the list of those who "fully deserve the latter".


----------



## atlashunter (May 3, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Nope, just the truth.  I put myself at the top of the list of those who "fully deserve the latter".



Nope. I'm quite certain you've done nothing that would make it just for you to be burned forever. Nobody deserves that.


----------



## atlashunter (May 3, 2012)

This idea that people's memories will be wiped so they are not aware that those they once loved are being tortured for eternity is also a pretty morally repugnant idea.


----------



## mtnwoman (May 3, 2012)

dexrusjak said:


> If my mother never knows that I existed, then she is not her TRUE self.  Her true self (the person that she is today) is a collection of all her previous and current experiences, thoughts, actions, conditions, circumstances, etc.  I like to think that I am a pretty significant part of who she is (just as she is a very significant part of who I am).  If she loses all knowledge of me when she gets to Heaven, then she will lose a great many of her memories of her life on Earth.  This loss of memories will cause her to lose her TRUE identity.  Have you ever dealt with an Alzheimer's patient?  These people, in their current unfortunate states, are NOT their true selves.  Physically, they are the same people, but mentally and emotionally they are not themselves.  Is that what Heaven will be?  People existing without their memories of experiences on Earth?  If so, then in what way are they the same people?  You Christians claim that they will have different bodies; now it seems you claim that they will have different minds as well.  In what way will my mother be the same person in Heaven as she is on Earth?



Our minds are renewed. We will no longer have a sinful nature. I never claimed we would have the same mind....how could we?

We have a soul, a spirit and a body. The way I understand scripture, is that we will have the same only new/better/healed body and we will recognize each other.  The spirit that we have on earth that is attached to the Spirit of God is the same spirit of course. Our earthly mind, our personality etc....will be the same minus anything negative, just like our body. Our minds will be perfect and renewed. We will be happy, never sad. We will never sin again because the sinful part of us will be dead.  No where in the Bible does it say our mothers will not remember us, but by deduction if there are no tears or sadness then tears and sadness would come if they did remember their lost loved ones, so the conclusion I come to, is there will be nothing remembered that will make us sad...why should we continue to suffer in heaven and grieve in heaven over our loved ones that we grieved over on earth? what kind of heaven would that be? that would be just another kind of hades, eh?

You'll remember your mother though. You will be eternally seperated from her. You will not be renewed. I'm not trying to judge you personally, I'm just saying....she won't remember you but you'll remember her...you'll have nothing to dry your tears.

This is one of my favorite verses, it nails most of this home for me, as most folks here know I use it a lot...but it cleared up a lot of things for me. 'For the Word of God is sharper than any two edged sword dividing asunder soul and spirit'....our soul is what we struggle with...between sin and goodness, most of have both, all of us have sin. We will die to sin when we go to heaven, that part of us will die. If we are funny, or intelligent or kind we will still have our good parts, just the bad will be gone, our sinful nature....our hatefulness, our stingyness, our unforgiveness, our lying, our thieving, etc, that will die.

And that of course is my opinion and many others that I know of.


----------



## mtnwoman (May 3, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> This idea that people's memories will be wiped so they are not aware that those they once loved are being tortured for eternity is also a pretty morally repugnant idea.



Why? 


Why should mama's or daddy's etc be tortured for eternity in heaven, which is suppose to be a happy joyful place? That is what Christ died for. There is no sadness in heaven. 

We are no longer mothers and daddy's...we are brothers and sisters in heaven. My mother will be my sister.....I don't even know that I will know that she was my mama....but I will recognize her.  God will be our Father and we will be His children.

Would you want your children to suffer and be heart broken throughout eternity if in fact you had the power to change it?


----------



## mtnwoman (May 3, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> This idea that people's memories will be wiped so they are not aware that those they once loved are being tortured for eternity is also a pretty morally repugnant idea.



Well being seperated from my mama, daddy, daughter, grandchildren, brothers, sister, grandmothers and fathers, would be just as bad as being burned forever...never seeing them again, ever.


----------



## mtnwoman (May 3, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Nope, just the truth.  I put myself at the top of the list of those who "fully deserve the latter".



I'm right there widcha.....if not for mercy and grace and the blood of the lamb, I'd be on the highway to hades still.


----------



## mtnwoman (May 3, 2012)

Michael F. Gray said:


> This corrupt flesh will be replaced with an incorruptable body like as Jesus had, before we get to Heaven. We will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, the Trump of God shall sound, and the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we which are alive shall meet him in the air.



Hallelujah!!!! I'm ready!


----------



## ambush80 (May 3, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Well being seperated from my mama, daddy, daughter, grandchildren, brothers, sister, grandmothers and fathers, would be just as bad as being burned forever...never seeing them again, ever.



Would it be just as bad being separated from them forever while they burn?


----------



## dexrusjak (May 3, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Nope, just the truth.  I put myself at the top of the list of those who "fully deserve the latter".



Really?  I mean...really?  Think about what you're saying here.  Do you REALLY think that you have done something so bad that you DESERVE to be tortured F-O-R-E-V-E-R?!  There is not a single finite crime that a finite person could commit that would be worthy of INFINITE torture.  Not one.  Take off your Jesus glasses for two seconds and think rationally.  NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY deserves to be tortured for all of eternity.  NOBODY.

I mean, let's assume your god is real.  He put you here in a total lose/lose situation.  Everyone sins, right?  It's impossible to live a full life and not sin, right (unless of course you're Jesus)?  If that's the case, you didn't have a chance.  God set you up to fail and then deems the punishment for said failure to be ETERNAL TORTURE?!?!  If anyone is responsible for your failure, it isn't you, it's your god.  Let him go to He11 and serve your sentence for you.  It's his fault, not yours.


----------



## atlashunter (May 3, 2012)

dexrusjak said:


> Really?  I mean...really?  Think about what you're saying here.  Do you REALLY think that you have done something so bad that you DESERVE to be tortured F-O-R-E-V-E-R?!  There is not a single finite crime that a finite person could commit that would be worthy of INFINITE torture.  Not one.  Take off your Jesus glasses for two seconds and think rationally.  NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY deserves to be tortured for all of eternity.  NOBODY.
> 
> I mean, let's assume your god is real.  He put you here in a total lose/lose situation.  Everyone sins, right?  It's impossible to live a full life and not sin, right (unless of course you're Jesus)?  If that's the case, you didn't have a chance.  God set you up to fail and then deems the punishment for said failure to be ETERNAL TORTURE?!?!  If anyone is responsible for your failure, it isn't you, it's your god.  Let him go to He11 and serve your sentence for you.  It's his fault, not yours.



You're made sick and commanded to be well. Fail and you get eternal pain and suffering. It's a premise rotten to the core. The absurdity is only further escalated that you may escape from this trap by adopting a certain belief.


----------



## atlashunter (May 3, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Why?
> 
> 
> Why should mama's or daddy's etc be tortured for eternity in heaven, which is suppose to be a happy joyful place? That is what Christ died for. There is no sadness in heaven.
> ...



It would be akin to someone molesting your children and hiding the fact from you only taken to a much greater extreme. Instead of the finite act of molestation we are talking about subjecting someone to extreme pain forever. Instead of hiding it from you we are talking about wiping the very knowledge and awareness that the children you love ever even existed from your mind. Perhaps you would be happier in your ignorance but that is hardly doing you a good deed. It's quite an evil suggestion if you stop and think about it.

By the way, I'm curious to know what your scriptural basis is for this claim.


----------



## centerpin fan (May 3, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> You're made sick and commanded to be well.



No, we _became_ sick and God provided the medicine to get well.


----------



## centerpin fan (May 3, 2012)

dexrusjak said:


> I mean, let's assume your god is real.  He put you here in a total lose/lose situation.  Everyone sins, right?  It's impossible to live a full life and not sin, right (unless of course you're Jesus)?  If that's the case, you didn't have a chance.  God set you up to fail and then deems the punishment for said failure to be ETERNAL TORTURE?!?!  If anyone is responsible for your failure, it isn't you, it's your god.  Let him go to He11 and serve your sentence for you.  It's his fault, not yours.



You do not understand Christianity.  Bishop Fulton Sheen once said, “If Catholics believe what non-Catholics think we believe, I wouldn’t be Catholic either.”  Likewise, if Christians actually believe what atheists think we believe, I wouldn't be a Christian.


----------



## dexrusjak (May 3, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> You do not understand Christianity.  Bishop Fulton Sheen once said, “If Catholics believe what non-Catholics think we believe, I wouldn’t be Catholic either.”  Likewise, if Christians actually believe what atheists think we believe, I wouldn't be a Christian.



Please enlighten me.  I spent over 20 years as a Christian, 5-plus years as a youth minister, 2 years as a missionary.  I have a college degree in religion and philosophy.  Please explain to me exactly what I don't understand about Christianity.  I guarantee you that I've forgotten more about the Bible than most Christians ever know.


----------



## centerpin fan (May 3, 2012)

dexrusjak said:


> Please enlighten me.  I spent over 20 years as a Christian ...



Based on other threads in this forum, so did Hitler.




dexrusjak said:


> I have a college degree in religion and philosophy.




... and you were taught _this_?




dexrusjak said:


> He put you here in a total lose/lose situation.  Everyone sins, right?  It's impossible to live a full life and not sin, right (unless of course you're Jesus)?  If that's the case, you didn't have a chance.  God set you up to fail and then deems the punishment for said failure to be ETERNAL TORTURE?!?!  If anyone is responsible for your failure, it isn't you, it's your god.  Let him go to He11 and serve your sentence for you.  It's his fault, not yours.



You should demand your money back.


----------



## atlashunter (May 3, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> No, we _became_ sick and God provided the medicine to get well.



How did we become sick? At what point in your life did this happen to you?


----------



## centerpin fan (May 3, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> How did we become sick?



That whole "garden of Eden" thing.




atlashunter said:


> At what point in your life did this happen to you?



Along with the rest of mankind, I inherited the results of Adam and Eve's sin.


----------



## atlashunter (May 3, 2012)

If you are sinful by a nature and flesh that was given to you by God and tempted to sin by a tempter fashioned and placed by God and then under those circumstances granted the free will to sin by God then you are indeed created sick and commanded to be well. The claim that God will at some point in the future transform people into a state of being incapable of sin is just another confirmation that you're born into a state of sin because God wills it so.

When you start making up a bunch of nonsense as you go like theists do you're bound to end up with irreconcilable contradictions.


----------



## centerpin fan (May 3, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> If you are sinful by a nature ...



Who said we are?  Not me.


----------



## atlashunter (May 3, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Who said we are?  Not me.



Romans 7

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.


----------



## centerpin fan (May 3, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Romans 7
> 
> 14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
> 
> ...



I love it when you guys quote the Bible.


----------



## centerpin fan (May 3, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Romans 7
> 
> 14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
> 
> ...



You're leaving out a lot.  Romans consists of more than those few verses.


----------



## dexrusjak (May 3, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Based on other threads in this forum, so did Hitler.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Exactly which part do you disagree with?  Everyone sins?  He11 is punishment for sin?  Or that God created the universe?  These all seem like pretty mainline Christian beliefs to me, unless Christianity has changed a great deal since I left it.


----------



## JB0704 (May 3, 2012)

dexrusjak said:


> Please enlighten me.  I spent over 20 years as a Christian, 5-plus years as a youth minister, 2 years as a missionary.  I have a college degree in religion and philosophy.  Please explain to me exactly what I don't understand about Christianity.  I guarantee you that I've forgotten more about the Bible than most Christians ever know.



Would you care to pass along what brought you out of that faith?  No reason other than curiosity.  I started and tried to walk away from faith for several years, but in the end existence without God didn't make any sense to me.

Also, I don't have a religion degree, but I did go to a Christian college and took many Bible classes from some highly respected theologians.  I assure you, I didn't learn near as much as some of the fellas poking around on this forum know.


----------



## centerpin fan (May 3, 2012)

dexrusjak said:


> Exactly which part do you disagree with?



This:



dexrusjak said:


> He put you here in a total lose/lose situation.... you didn't have a chance....  God set you up to fail ...


----------



## dexrusjak (May 3, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Would you care to pass along what brought you out of that faith?  No reason other than curiosity.  I started and tried to walk away from faith for several years, but in the end existence without God didn't make any sense to me.
> 
> Also, I don't have a religion degree, but I did go to a Christian college and took many Bible classes from some highly respected theologians.  I assure you, I didn't learn near as much as some of the fellas poking around on this forum know.



Sure.  

Long story short, I took a course that required me to read, discuss, and examine various Christian doctrines from all different denominations.  This experience led me to critically examine my own fundamentalist dogma.  Over a period of months and years I began to understand that my beliefs were no more plausible than any other religious beliefs.  Over the course of 3-4 years I went from hard-core evangelical fundamentalist Southern Baptist to moderate Christian to liberal Christian to Christian agnostic to theist to deist to agnostic to atheist.  It was a long, difficult (painful at times) process.

Essentially, it boiled down to one thing.  My entire Christian worldview was based on the Bible.  If the Bible was truly the Word of God, my faith was justified.  If the Bible was a man-made book, my faith was nothing.  I diligently studied the Bible.  I read everything I could get my hands on that dealt with church history, the Christian canon, textual criticism, everything.  It became clear over time that the Bible is nothing more than a collection of man-made writings from an age that has long since past.  Aside from a few basic moral principles, there is nothing in the Bible that holds any relevance for life in 2012.  When I realized that the Bible was in no way the Word of God, I simply walked away.  I haven't questioned my decision since.  The only thing I regret is that I didn't examine my faith critically and walk away from it much sooner.


----------



## dexrusjak (May 3, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> This:



Did you have a chance to not sin?


----------



## centerpin fan (May 3, 2012)

dexrusjak said:


> Did you have a chance to not sin?



Adam did.  God did not put him in a "lose/lose" situation, and He did not set him up to fail.


----------



## JB0704 (May 3, 2012)

Thanks for passing that along.  



dexrusjak said:


> Over a period of months and years I began to understand that my beliefs were no more plausible than any other religious beliefs.



That's why Christians have Ravi Zacharias. 



dexrusjak said:


> Over the course of 3-4 years I went from hard-core evangelical fundamentalist Southern Baptist to moderate Christian to liberal Christian to Christian agnostic to theist to deist to agnostic to atheist.



I understand. I went from fundie to moderate to theist and tinkered with agnostic then bounced back to "liberal" Christian, which I guess is where I am currently.  It was about a process.  But I am comfortable and confident in my Christian faith.



dexrusjak said:


> Essentially, it boiled down to one thing.  My entire Christian worldview was based on the Bible.  If the Bible was truly the Word of God, my faith was justified.  If the Bible was a man-made book, my faith was nothing.  I diligently studied the Bible.  I read everything I could get my hands on that dealt with church history, the Christian canon, textual criticism, everything.  It became clear over time that the Bible is nothing more than a collection of man-made writings from an age that has long since past.  Aside from a few basic moral principles, there is nothing in the Bible that holds any relevance for life in 2012.  When I realized that the Bible was in no way the Word of God, I simply walked away.  I haven't questioned my decision since.  The only thing I regret is that I didn't examine my faith critically and walk away from it much sooner.



I disagree with the comments in red, but I guess that is for another thread.  

I view the Bible a little differently than some Christians.  I do not think it has to be what we say it is.  It just is what it is.  We can look for meaning and message without getting bogged down in whether or not it is what the preacher or the atheist say it is and what it must do.


----------



## dexrusjak (May 3, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Adam did.  God did not put him in a "lose/lose" situation, and He did not set him up to fail.



1. I wasn't talking about Adam.  I was talking about you.  Another man's sin shouldn't condemn me or you to eternal punishment.

2. God did set up Adam to fail.  Not putting a tree in the garden would have been setting Adam up not to fail.  It's like putting a beer in front of a recovering alcoholic and telling him not to drink it.  Why not just take the beer away from him in the first place?


----------



## dexrusjak (May 3, 2012)

I hear you, JB.  Are you familiar with John Shelby Spong?  If there were ever a chance for me to become a Christian again, it would be his type of Christianity.

As far as RZ goes.  I've watched his videos, read his books, even went to hear him speak in Atlanta once.  I really don't see what all the fuss is about.  He make a decent case for a deity, but then he makes a hooooooooge leap to that deity being the God of the Bible.  At least that's what I've observed of him.


----------



## atlashunter (May 3, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> I love it when you guys quote the Bible.



I trust you find it authoritative.


----------



## atlashunter (May 3, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> You're leaving out a lot.  Romans consists of more than those few verses.



Details please.


----------



## mtnwoman (May 3, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> Would it be just as bad being separated from them forever while they burn?



Well for them it would be, but I wouldn't know the difference......scripture says there is no tears in heaven....like I said before....if I believe in your mockery of talkin' donkeys then I believe in this....eh?

Revelation 21:4
King James Version (KJV)

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Why do you assume being in hades is the same as being in heaven, just opposite poles????? In my opinion....you should listen to your mama...she grieves for you now....only shortly though. You will grieve her for eternity, when Christ gives her peace. You really think she doesn't deserve better? really?


----------



## mtnwoman (May 3, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> It would be akin to someone molesting your children and hiding the fact from you only taken to a much greater extreme. Instead of the finite act of molestation we are talking about subjecting someone to extreme pain forever. Instead of hiding it from you we are talking about wiping the very knowledge and awareness that the children you love ever even existed from your mind. Perhaps you would be happier in your ignorance but that is hardly doing you a good deed. It's quite an evil suggestion if you stop and think about it.
> 
> By the way, I'm curious to know what your scriptural basis is for this claim.





Huh? You and your children if you teach them to live as you do, will be here with the child molesters and the thieves and all of satans legion...the crack addict..and will sell their bodies and their sisters for crack...well they do that now. Because all the good or semi good but forgiven will be raptured off the face of the earth, along with the holy spirit....satan will take over.....and you and only you will have to defend your children, you will have not one rightous one to help you, because only evil will be left here. Before that happens, I want to be raptured up out of here, with my child and grand children and brothers and sister who are saved. I do not want to be left behind on earth with only evil, imagine....like thunder dome or something....forsaken, forgotten, unremembered,hungry,unloved, lonely, sick, in pain, blind, lame, joyless, guilty, bored...... Lord have mercy Jesus, have mercy  on all of us here, not just me.


----------



## atlashunter (May 3, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Adam did.  God did not put him in a "lose/lose" situation, and He did not set him up to fail.



According to the Christian responses to the original question there are certain components that must be in place to have sin. We are told that explains why there is sin on earth but not heaven. Well who puts those components in place with foreknowledge of what the results will be?


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## mtnwoman (May 3, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> No, we _became_ sick and God provided the medicine to get well.



That's like the doctor prescribing a medication, but when you get home.....you have free will to take it or not.

Sometimes I minds, and sometimes I don't minds so good. That's my free will at work.....unfortunately...lol


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## Artfuldodger (May 3, 2012)

dexrusjak said:


> 1. I wasn't talking about Adam.  I was talking about you.  Another man's sin shouldn't condemn me or you to eternal punishment.
> 
> 2. God did set up Adam to fail.  Not putting a tree in the garden would have been setting Adam up not to fail.  It's like putting a beer in front of a recovering alcoholic and telling him not to drink it.  Why not just take the beer away from him in the first place?


 
I don't have an answer for #1 but for #2, temptations are all around us and a part of life. God realized this and was seeing how Adam could handle it. He failed. Now did God no this would happen, I don't think so. Is every human Christian or non-Christian  responsible for our own actions? Yes.


----------



## atlashunter (May 3, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Huh? You and your children if you teach them to live as you do, will be here with the child molesters and the thieves and all of satans legion...the crack addict..and will sell their bodies and their sisters for crack...well they do that now. Because all the good or semi good but forgiven will be raptured off the face of the earth, along with the holy spirit....satan will take over.....and you and only you will have to defend your children, you will have not one rightous one to help you, because only evil will be left here. Before that happens, I want to be raptured up out of here, with my child and grand children and brothers and sister who are saved. I do not want to be left behind on earth with only evil, imagine....like thunder dome or something....forsaken, forgotten, unremembered,hungry,unloved, lonely, sick, in pain, blind, lame, joyless, guilty, bored...... Lord have mercy Jesus, have mercy  on all of us here, not just me.





Don't know about you but I'm not of the opinion that my loved ones deserve to be roasted regardless of their religious beliefs and I certainly wouldn't be content to have the wool pulled over my eyes by their judge and executioner to hide not only their suffering but their very existence from me. That's vile.


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## mtnwoman (May 3, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Don't know about you but I'm not of the opinion that my loved ones deserve to be roasted regardless of their religious beliefs and I certainly wouldn't be content to have the wool pulled over my eyes by their judge and executioner to hide not only their suffering but their very existence from me. That's vile.



So I suppose you don't believe in the death penalty? A perv can molest or rape or kill a child and he shouldn't roast even if he is your bro....alrighty then. That's your opinion and you have the right to your opinion. I'd probably enjoy his roasting if it was before the rapture, but you could grieve if you like.

You can call me if you want to, but I can call you loco if I deem your bro sinful for choosing his sexual preference as being a 6 yr old boy....maybe he can't help it, he was born that way...perhaps if we keep changing the law, 6 will be the age of consent.....Lord I hope I'm up outta here by then....and that IS vile.


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## atlashunter (May 3, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> So I suppose you don't believe in the death penalty? A perv can molest or rape or kill a child and he shouldn't roast even if he is your bro....alrighty then. That's your opinion and you have the right to your opinion. I'd probably enjoy his roasting if it was before the rapture, but you could grieve if you like.
> 
> You can call me if you want to, but I can call you loco if I deem your bro sinful for choosing his sexual preference as being a 6 yr old boy....maybe he can't help it, he was born that way...perhaps if we keep changing the law, 6 will be the age of consent.....Lord I hope I'm up outta here by then....and that IS vile.



I'm all for justice but there is no justice in roasting someone forever for any crime. And to equate people who commit the crime of not sharing your religious beliefs with rapists and child molesters is absurd. I'm so glad I came to my senses and don't believe christian nonsense any more. I see it now for the evil that it is and I'm saddened to see others so caught up in it.


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## centerpin fan (May 4, 2012)

dexrusjak said:


> Another man's sin shouldn't condemn me or you to eternal punishment.



It doesn't.




dexrusjak said:


> God did set up Adam to fail.  Not putting a tree in the garden would have been setting Adam up not to fail.  It's like putting a beer in front of a recovering alcoholic and telling him not to drink it.



No, it's like putting a kid in a petting zoo and saying, "Pet 'em all, kid -- the lamb, the goat, the pony, and the puppy.  But see that cobra over there in the corner?  Don't pet it because it's poisonous and will kill you."

Adam and Eve had it made in the shade.


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## centerpin fan (May 4, 2012)

dexrusjak said:


> Are you familiar with John Shelby Spong?  If there were ever a chance for me to become a Christian again, it would be his type of Christianity.



Spong's type of Christianity is not Christianity.  He wouldn't be the first to make up his own faith, though.


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## centerpin fan (May 4, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Details please.



Man's problem is death.  Paul talks about it in Romans 6, among other places.  Read _On the Incarnation_ by St. Athanasius for a more thorough explanation.


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## centerpin fan (May 4, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> According to the Christian responses to the original question there are certain components that must be in place to have sin. We are told that explains why there is sin on earth but not heaven. Well who puts those components in place with foreknowledge of what the results will be?



See post #94.


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## centerpin fan (May 4, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> That's like the doctor prescribing a medication ...



Exactly.  Jesus is The Great Healer.


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## gemcgrew (May 4, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> According to the Christian responses to the original question there are certain components that must be in place to have sin. We are told that explains why there is sin on earth but not heaven. Well who puts those components in place with foreknowledge of what the results will be?



There are many different takes on this. I see it from a supralapsarian view.

 1. Elect some, reprobate rest
 2.  Create
 3.  Permit Fall
 4. Provide salvation for elect
 5. Call elect to salvation


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## JB0704 (May 4, 2012)

dexrusjak said:


> I hear you, JB.  Are you familiar with John Shelby Spong?  If there were ever a chance for me to become a Christian again, it would be his type of Christianity..



Never heard of him.  I am in the middle of a crazy long reading list, but will look him up when I get the chance, and get his take on things.



dexrusjak said:


> As far as RZ goes.  I've watched his videos, read his books, even went to hear him speak in Atlanta once.  I really don't see what all the fuss is about.  He make a decent case for a deity, but then he makes a hooooooooge leap to that deity being the God of the Bible.  At least that's what I've observed of him.



I have said it on this board plenty, but, for me at least, the existence of a deity is a logical conclusion.  Believing in Jesus is by faith.


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## atlashunter (May 4, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Man's problem is death.  Paul talks about it in Romans 6, among other places.  Read _On the Incarnation_ by St. Athanasius for a more thorough explanation.



What does that have to do with our sinful natures described in Romans 7?


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## atlashunter (May 4, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> No, it's like putting a kid in a petting zoo and saying, "Pet 'em all, kid -- the lamb, the goat, the pony, and the puppy.  But see that cobra over there in the corner?  Don't pet it because it's poisonous and will kill you."
> 
> Adam and Eve had it made in the shade.



You need to add a few details to make the analogy accurate. You gave the child a curiosity that you knew would lead to a desire to pet the cobra. You made the cobra and put the cobra in the petting zoo knowing with 100% certainty that the child would disobey you and pet the cobra. You allowed another adult in the petting zoo to tempt the child into petting the cobra knowing what the outcome would be. You did all of this knowing from the very start that the end result would be a dead child.

No court of law would declare someone who did this not guilty.


----------



## ambush80 (May 4, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> You need to add a few details to make the analogy accurate. You gave the child a curiosity that you knew would lead to a desire to pet the cobra. You made the cobra and put the cobra in the petting zoo knowing with 100% certainty that the child would disobey you and pet the cobra. You allowed another adult in the petting zoo to tempt the child into petting the cobra knowing what the outcome would be. You did all of this knowing from the very start that the end result would be a dead child.
> 
> No court of law would declare someone who did this not guilty.




For real, yo!  And he was a bad dude.


----------



## dexrusjak (May 4, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't have an answer for #1 but for #2, temptations are all around us and a part of life. God realized this and was seeing how Adam could handle it. He failed. Now did God no this would happen, I don't think so. Is every human Christian or non-Christian  responsible for our own actions? Yes.



But why are temptations a part of life?  Because God wanted them to be.  God chose to tempt humans causing them to sin.  If God had not allowed for Adam to be tempted, Adam would not have sinned.  God is at fault here, not Adam.  If I put a cookie in front of my 2 year old daughter and say don't eat that as I leave the room, am I really justified in being upset with her when I return and she's eaten the cookie?  I'm more at fault than she is for leaving the cookie there.


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## dexrusjak (May 4, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> It doesn't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you for making my point for me.  What kind of loving father would put his kid in such danger?


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## dexrusjak (May 4, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Spong's type of Christianity is not Christianity.  He wouldn't be the first to make up his own faith, though.



Says you.


----------



## dexrusjak (May 4, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> You need to add a few details to make the analogy accurate. You gave the child a curiosity that you knew would lead to a desire to pet the cobra. You made the cobra and put the cobra in the petting zoo knowing with 100% certainty that the child would disobey you and pet the cobra. You allowed another adult in the petting zoo to tempt the child into petting the cobra knowing what the outcome would be. You did all of this knowing from the very start that the end result would be a dead child.
> 
> No court of law would declare someone who did this not guilty.



Well said.


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## mtnwoman (May 4, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> I'm all for justice but there is no justice in roasting someone forever for any crime. And to equate people who commit the crime of not sharing your religious beliefs with rapists and child molesters is absurd. I'm so glad I came to my senses and don't believe christian nonsense any more. I see it now for the evil that it is and I'm saddened to see others so caught up in it.



So if someone rapes your child and your child never recovers and never comes to Christ and is left behind to forever be forsaken and seperated from his/her family and condemned to whatever their hades may be...whether it be forever tortured by lonliness or forever seperated by fire, or seperated by drugs or tormented and raped and tortured by the same rapist over and over for eternity.....you'd deem the original culprit justified and not liable for their actions and don't deserve to be in hades?.....alrighty then. I must be a differnet breed than you....anyone rapes my child deserves to be in hades(whatever their hades might be) least they repent and be saved...but that's just me.
Satan ain't gettin' my young'uns to torture forever along with the original demon that tortured them......don't you see that child molesters are demons and have already lived in hades???? Lord help us sweet Jesus.


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## dexrusjak (May 4, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> So if someone rapes your child and your child never recovers and never comes to Christ and is left behind to forever be forsaken and seperated from his/her family and condemned to whatever their hades may be...whether it be forever tortured by lonliness or forever seperated by fire, or seperated by drugs or tormented and raped and tortured by the same rapist over and over for eternity.....you'd deem the original culprit justified and not liable for their actions and don't deserve to be in hades?.....alrighty then. I must be a differnet breed than you....anyone rapes my child deserves to be in hades(whatever their hades might be) least they repent and be saved...but that's just me.
> Satan ain't gettin' my young'uns to torture forever along with the original demon that tortured them......don't you see that child molesters are demons and have already lived in hades???? Lord help us sweet Jesus.



You do realize that according to your religion, a person can rape and murder 100 children and still go to Heaven, right?


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## mtnwoman (May 4, 2012)

dexrusjak said:


> But why are temptations a part of life?  Because God wanted them to be.  God chose to tempt humans causing them to sin.  If God had not allowed for Adam to be tempted, Adam would not have sinned.  God is at fault here, not Adam.  If I put a cookie in front of my 2 year old daughter and say don't eat that as I leave the room, am I really justified in being upset with her when I return and she's eaten the cookie?  I'm more at fault than she is for leaving the cookie there.



Really, so it's your fault when your child disobeys? alrighty then.

So are you saying that you train your child obedience by hiding everything from them? When you go to the pool and tell them not to go to the deep end, how do you hide that from them? How do you flash that in front of them but yet expect them to obey you if you feel that you are tempting them by exposing them to the deep end in the first place? Why do you take them to walmart and tempt them with on coming traffic, if you expect them to fail? What you're saying makes no sense at all.

When I was raising my child, I didn't hide everything in the house from her. I told her not to touch it and if she did, I would either pop her hand mildly and say no to get her attention or scold her to get her attention....either that or deal with her touching everything in walmart that didn't belong to her.

So you think God tempted Adam/Eve just so He could punish them for failure...if that is your mindset, then probably you set your children up for failure too, either that or you let them do anything they want to without any punishment whatsoever.....that's cool do what you want, just don't bring God to your level...or mine.


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## mtnwoman (May 4, 2012)

dexrusjak said:


> You do realize that according to your religion, a person can rape and murder 100 children and still go to Heaven, right?



Probably a person that is that demonized is not going to surrender to Christ. I believe in demons, which probably you do not. Demons live thru us. Demons of alcohol, demons of perversion, demons of lying, demons of thievery, demons of rage, demons of any kind of addictions, those demons come from satan's legion, likely not to be anything else but a demon spirit. 


But.....Perhaps children of abuse, can be saved, can turn to God, can be saved. I don't know I'm not the judge.  I know I drove drunk at least 100 times, didn't kill anyone, yet I'm redeemed from alcohol....so I can't answer your question for I am not God. But I am delivered....I am damaged....but delivered. And trust me that demon of alcohol nips at my heels almost every day...and I rebuke it in the name of Jesus all day long.


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## mtnwoman (May 4, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> You need to add a few details to make the analogy accurate. You gave the child a curiosity that you knew would lead to a desire to pet the cobra. You made the cobra and put the cobra in the petting zoo knowing with 100% certainty that the child would disobey you and pet the cobra. You allowed another adult in the petting zoo to tempt the child into petting the cobra knowing what the outcome would be. You did all of this knowing from the very start that the end result would be a dead child.
> 
> No court of law would declare someone who did this not guilty.



I have one daughter and 3 granddaughters.....so  I'm speaking about girls and not boys...perhaps a different experience than you. None of them would touch a snake, not a garden snake, not a garter snake, not a green snake, not a rattler, not a cottonmouth, not ever a spider, no kind of a spider...they squeal and run for the hills. I'm the only one out of the 5 of us that will grab a granddaddy long legs and throw him outside. I'm the only one that will kill a bee, too. The rest run and hide....they are not stupid...they learned from a young age, from obedience or lack of, not to get around anything that might 'smite' them. We didn't have to trick them, we didn't have to bribe them, we just taught them to mind us.......that just doesn't seem that hard to me. 

I don't know why it has been so hard for y'all to teach a young'un to stay away from a snake....Lordy, I'll be prayin' for your rightmindedness in doing so.


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## mtnwoman (May 4, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> You need to add a few details to make the analogy accurate. You gave the child a curiosity that you knew would lead to a desire to pet the cobra. You made the cobra and put the cobra in the petting zoo knowing with 100% certainty that the child would disobey you and pet the cobra. You allowed another adult in the petting zoo to tempt the child into petting the cobra knowing what the outcome would be. You did all of this knowing from the very start that the end result would be a dead child.
> 
> No court of law would declare someone who did this not guilty.



Now that I've reread this, perhaps your children were raised as the deliverance movie kids were raised....wow....no common sense at all...that is YOUR fault.  I don't know a single kid that isn't afraid of a snake....and I live in eastbum....


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## dexrusjak (May 4, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Really, so it's your fault when your child disobeys? alrighty then.
> 
> So are you saying that you train your child obedience by hiding everything from them? When you go to the pool and tell them not to go to the deep end, how do you hide that from them? How do you flash that in front of them but yet expect them to obey you if you feel that you are tempting them by exposing them to the deep end in the first place? Why do you take them to walmart and tempt them with on coming traffic, if you expect them to fail? What you're saying makes no sense at all.
> 
> ...



You sure do make a lot of assumptions.  It's very annoying.

1. It's not my fault when my child disobeys, unless it is, as in the example given.  If God is infinitely wiser than us, then yes, he (sic) deserves most of the blame.  He should know better.  

2. I do not hold "everything" from my child.  I try to give her as much freedom as she can handle.  I try to set healthy boundaries.  The example I offered was a hypothetical situation, BTW.  I'm certainly not going to tempt my 2-year-old with the deep end of the swimming pool or oncoming traffic.  When she gets older, and can handle those things, she'll learn to handle them wisely.  I don't really get your analogy here.

3. When you were raising your child, did you leave knives and guns lying around the house, or did you keep those hidden from her?

4. Your final block of text makes absolutely no sense.  God doesn't exist; neither did Adam or Eve.  It's a made up story.  It's not even a good story.  If God created two people, told them not to eat fruit from a certain tree, allowed a talking snake to tempt them into eating from the tree, punished their "fall" along with all of humanity for the rest of time with the threat of eternal torture and then sacrificed himself to himself so that a few people could believe and not suffer forever, then that "God" is a pathetic, disgraceful being.  I'm glad such a god does not exist.


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## dexrusjak (May 4, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Probably a person that is that demonized is not going to surrender to Christ. I believe in demons, which probably you do not. Demons live thru us. Demons of alcohol, demons of perversion, demons of lying, demons of thievery, demons of rage, demons of any kind of addictions, those demons come from satan's legion, likely not to be anything else but a demon spirit.
> 
> 
> But.....Perhaps children of abuse, can be saved, can turn to God, can be saved. I don't know I'm not the judge.  I know I drove drunk at least 100 times, didn't kill anyone, yet I'm redeemed from alcohol....so I can't answer your question for I am not God. But I am delivered....I am damaged....but delivered. And trust me that demon of alcohol nips at my heels almost every day...and I rebuke it in the name of Jesus all day long.



There's no such thing as demons.  Is it POSSIBLE, according to your beliefs that a man could rape a child and upon their deaths years later, the man could spend eternity in Heaven and the child spend eternity in He11?  Is this scenario POSSIBLE?


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## atlashunter (May 4, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> So if someone rapes your child and your child never recovers and never comes to Christ and is left behind to forever be forsaken and seperated from his/her family and condemned to whatever their hades may be...whether it be forever tortured by lonliness or forever seperated by fire, or seperated by drugs or tormented and raped and tortured by the same rapist over and over for eternity.....you'd deem the original culprit justified and not liable for their actions and don't deserve to be in hades?



Would they deserve to be there forever? Nope. Not for any finite life of misdeeds. Punishment? Absolutely. Again I'm all for justice. Infinite punishment for a finite crime isn't justice. Of course in your world a child molester can repent and be saved before they die and heaven everlasting is their reward. Yet if their victim happened to be jewish they would deserve to burn forever no matter how good a person they were in this life. That's a positively immoral set of beliefs.

It seems that you are saying if your loved one doesn't believe the bible no matter how they lived their life they deserve to be burned for eternity and you would be content to have all memory of them wiped from your mind. This is morality? This is justice?


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## atlashunter (May 4, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Probably a person that is that demonized is not going to surrender to Christ. I believe in demons, which probably you do not. Demons live thru us. Demons of alcohol, demons of perversion, demons of lying, demons of thievery, demons of rage, demons of any kind of addictions, those demons come from satan's legion, likely not to be anything else but a demon spirit.



Rudolf Hoss was the commandant of Auschwitz. I'm sure you're familiar with the atrocities he oversaw. Here is what he had to say four days before his execution.



> My conscience compels me to make the following declaration. In the solitude of my prison cell I have come to the bitter recognition that I have sinned gravely against humanity. As Commandant of Auschwitz I was responsible for carrying out part of the cruel plans of the 'Third Reich' for human destruction. In so doing I have inflicted terrible wounds on humanity. I caused unspeakable suffering for the Polish people in particular. I am to pay for this with my life. May the Lord God forgive one day what I have done.



Appears he was repentant. Perhaps he really was. As a Catholic maybe he got down on his knees in those days before his death and asked for God's forgiveness. Not unlikely. If he did, according to your religion he gets eternal bliss in heaven. His jewish victims that rejected the idea that Jesus was the messiah? They're burning to this day and always will and deservedly so right?


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## mtnwoman (May 4, 2012)

dexrusjak said:


> You sure do make a lot of assumptions.  It's very annoying.
> 
> 1. It's not my fault when my child disobeys, unless it is, as in the example given.  If God is infinitely wiser than us, then yes, he (sic) deserves most of the blame.  He should know better.  *He being the father and you being the father make you equal....when a child is squealing and screaming in walmart and disturbing the entire place....you really think it's the childs fault? really? it isn't the parents fault? Lordy have mercy. I blame the parent for not teaching the child obedience to shut up....maybe you don't...well obviously you don't...otay buttwheat.*
> 
> ...


*Well that's your opinion, and if you're right, so be it, but if you're wrong, your children will suffer because they never had a choice in the matter, at least I gave mine a choice. I didn't force them, just was open minded about it and let them choose.*


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## mtnwoman (May 4, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Rudolf Hoss was the commandant of Auschwitz. I'm sure you're familiar with the atrocities he oversaw. Here is what he had to say four days before his execution.
> 
> 
> 
> Appears he was repentant. Perhaps he really was. As a Catholic maybe he got down on his knees in those days before his death and asked for God's forgiveness. Not unlikely. If he did, according to your religion he gets eternal bliss in heaven. His jewish victims that rejected the idea that Jesus was the messiah? They're burning to this day and always will and deservedly so right?



Huh?  The Jews have a second chance......that's why we(gentiles) even have a first chance. I think you're missing something....a lot in fact.

You either believe it all or none. I believe it all and that's why it makes sense to me.

I've been where you are with all the questions and disbeliefs of why this and why that. Until you put the puzzle together you'll never get the full picture. Scramble it up and you only get confusion, but that's where satan comes in.....he's the author of confusion....he's trying to build his army. I ain't skeerd though.


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## mtnwoman (May 4, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> It seems that you are saying if your loved one doesn't believe the bible no matter how they lived their life they deserve to be burned for eternity and you would be content to have all memory of them wiped from your mind. This is morality? This is justice?



Well you see, you keep saying burned, I've never said that. I am like you I don't think everyone should burn throughout eternity. I think being seperated from God and loved ones is bad enough and just as bad. My exhusband says he thinks he's a pretty good guy because he never killed anyone or hurt anyone or in his mind never stole from anyone. Yet I just found out he cheated on me for 10 years and his next wife for 28 years and has abandoned his children 18 and 21 and hasn't been heard from in 4 months because he's a 'rock star'. He sold coke and pot and turned me onto drugs and alcohol at age 23 but considers himself 'not a heathen' and was sprinkled at birth, so he's saved.....really??


----------



## atlashunter (May 4, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Huh?  The Jews have a second chance......that's why we(gentiles) even have a first chance. I think you're missing something....a lot in fact.



What second chance would that be?




mtnwoman said:


> You either believe it all or none. I believe it all and that's why it makes sense to me.



We shall see.




mtnwoman said:


> I've been where you are with all the questions and disbeliefs of why this and why that. Until you put the puzzle together you'll never get the full picture. Scramble it up and you only get confusion, but that's where satan comes in.....he's the author of confusion....he's trying to build his army. I ain't skeerd though.



And I've been where you are, completely convinced that the bible was the gospel truth (pun intended) and dismissive and defensive toward anyone who would question that truth. Eventually I did indeed put the puzzle together and when I did it was like having a set of blinders removed. I can't think of a single book in the history of humanity that has caused more confusion than the bible.




mtnwoman said:


> Well you see, you keep saying burned, I've never said that.



You don't need to. Your holy book says it for you. I can quote the scriptures if you want.




mtnwoman said:


> I am like you I don't think everyone should burn throughout eternity.



Of course not _everyone._ Just everyone who isn't saved right? If that isn't the view you hold then you stand in disagreement with God's idea of justice and you've already told us you believe it all and that is why it all makes sense to you.




mtnwoman said:


> My exhusband says he thinks he's a pretty good guy because he never killed anyone or hurt anyone or in his mind never stole from anyone. Yet I just found out he cheated on me for 10 years and his next wife for 28 years and has abandoned his children 18 and 21 and hasn't been heard from in 4 months because he's a 'rock star'. He sold coke and pot and turned me onto drugs and alcohol at age 23 but considers himself 'not a heathen' and was sprinkled at birth, so he's saved.....really??



Don't know if he's "saved" or not. I take it you think if he is saved that he deserves eternal bliss for being saved and if he isn't he deserves to be roasted for all eternity. I'd disagree with that in either case.


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## mtnwoman (May 5, 2012)

dexrusjak said:


> There's no such thing as demons.  Is it POSSIBLE, according to your beliefs that a man could rape a child and upon their deaths years later, the man could spend eternity in Heaven and the child spend eternity in He11?  Is this scenario POSSIBLE?



Well according to you, there's no such thing as heaven either, a place where your mother won't be going, so of course you don't believe in demons. I thought you were asking us what we believed about it??


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## mtnwoman (May 5, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> What second chance would that be?*They were temporarily blinded for us to be grafted in, surely you know that if you know the Bible as you say.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*Well I don't know what you believe a child rapist/molester/torturer deserves but i'd say he deserves to be in much lower special kind of hades than someone who just refused the offer of deliverance from hades. But like you said we think differently about that. *

I might like to give 'im a couplea these before he goes....but where would that leave me....


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## mtnwoman (May 5, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> It seems that you are saying if your loved one doesn't believe the bible no matter how they lived their life they deserve to be burned for eternity and you would be content to have all memory of them wiped from your mind. This is morality? This is justice?



Wouldn't I have suffered a lifetime on earth be enough? Mama's that have children in prison suffer the life sentence with that child even if that child were guilty and no matter what they were guilty of.....do you think the mama deserves that? Do you think at some point the mama needs mercy or should she forever have to bear that burden along with the child that ends up hades who never repents? Really? The mother that goes to heaven should always suffer along with the child, even though y'all are saying it isn't the mother's fault for the sins of the child.....wow seems as though you like punishing the innocent....that blows my mind. God is merciful why wouldn't He wipe away those tears of the mama, after a lifetime of grieving? that's just not long enough for you, eh? You don't want to punish the quilty so much, but yet you want to punish the innocent to the extreme.....hmmmmmm.....


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## mtnwoman (May 5, 2012)

dexrusjak said:


> You sure do make a lot of assumptions.  It's very annoying.*Oh come on, and you and atlas don't....that's a joke.*
> 
> 1. It's not my fault when my child disobeys, unless it is, as in the example given.  If God is infinitely wiser than us, then yes, he (sic) deserves most of the blame.  He should know better.  *I feel that same way about a squealer in the grocery store, the father should know better than to bring a totally spoiled rotten, undisiplined, out of control, disobedient child into the store to annoy everyone..hello*
> 
> ...


*So as usual it was just a trick thread so you could say all that eh....just fishin'?....I see everyone else got that but me...ok...I'm out, too. I guess taking people at their word is not such a good thing to do all the time...my bad.*


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## mtnwoman (May 5, 2012)

dexrusjak said:


> Questions for those who believe in Heaven...
> 
> Will there be free will in Heaven?  In other words, will people in Heaven be able to choose to sin if they are so inclined?
> 
> ...




*OK OK.....I fell for a troll question, bad on me.*


At least I enjoyed my chatting with Atlas as always!!


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## atlashunter (May 5, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> *They were temporarily blinded for us to be grafted in, surely you know that if you know the Bible as you say.*


*

 We were talking about holocaust victims going to the hot place because they were jews and not christians. What second chance for them are you talking about???




mtnwoman said:



			Well I don't know what you believe a child rapist/molester/torturer deserves but i'd say he deserves to be in much lower special kind of hades than someone who just refused the offer of deliverance from hades. But like you said we think differently about that.
		
Click to expand...


So does your bible. All sinners who aren't saved go to the hot place for eternity right? So that means your average Joe that lived a good life but didn't believe in Jesus gets the same treatment as the worst of humanity. That is your gods take on justice according to the bible. But it gets better because if that child molester gets saved then they go to heaven when they die while the good non-believer burns. This is what your religion considers just and moral. Can you bring yourself to believe it? I can't.*


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## atlashunter (May 5, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Wouldn't I have suffered a lifetime on earth be enough? Mama's that have children in prison suffer the life sentence with that child even if that child were guilty and no matter what they were guilty of.....do you think the mama deserves that? Do you think at some point the mama needs mercy or should she forever have to bear that burden along with the child that ends up hades who never repents? Really? The mother that goes to heaven should always suffer along with the child, even though y'all are saying it isn't the mother's fault for the sins of the child.....wow seems as though you like punishing the innocent....that blows my mind. God is merciful why wouldn't He wipe away those tears of the mama, after a lifetime of grieving? that's just not long enough for you, eh? You don't want to punish the quilty so much, but yet you want to punish the innocent to the extreme.....hmmmmmm.....



I'm not saying the moral thing for God to do is to commit a great injustice by inflicting infinite suffering for a finite life and having you share in the suffering. I'm saying that a God that commits this injustice and hides it from the victims loved ones is only adding insult to injury and deserves neither the love or respect of the victims loved ones. A moral and just God wouldn't commit this injustice at all. It's sad to think there are people out there who accept the idea that their kids would deserve to be burned forever because of the religious views they held or didn't hold in this life.


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## mtnwoman (May 5, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> We were talking about holocaust victims going to the hot place because they were jews and not christians. What second chance for them are you talking about???*I know I have thought about that, too. But God blinded them, and that isn't their fault, so I believe God has a plan for them. Perhaps those ovens were their hades...I don't know. But I understand where you're coming from on that one. But I do believe they will be provided for. Perhaps they will rise in the rapture and be preached the Gospel to with the other Jews at Petra*
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I can bring myself to believe it, I can't bring myself to like it.

According to what I believe.....

When the rapture comes and all those dead and alive in Christ will rise and go to heaven, and the Holy Spirit leaves. Imagine what earth is going to be like for the people that are still alive. Will it matter if Joe is a pretty good guy when he is surrounded by thieves, murderers, and bad people? It will be a free for all. 93% of American believe in God so that leaves the other 7% to fend for themselves against the rest of the world who will not be caught up in the rapture...I mean the unsaved rest of the world. That to me would be a hades.

I don't choose not to believe in God because I dislike some of the things He has done or will do. I chose to believe in Him because of the things He has done for me and the things that He promised us for the future.  I think hades is a place I don't like and don't want to go to.....so I chose heaven.


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## mtnwoman (May 5, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> I'm not saying the moral thing for God to do is to commit a great injustice by inflicting infinite suffering for a finite life and having you share in the suffering. I'm saying that a God that commits this injustice and hides it from the victims loved ones is only adding insult to injury and deserves neither the love or respect of the victims loved ones. A moral and just God wouldn't commit this injustice at all. It's sad to think there are people out there who accept the idea that their kids would deserve to be burned forever because of the religious views they held or didn't hold in this life.



I don't believe any of us think anyone deserves that if you want to get right down to it. But some people just make that choice and there's nothing we can do, even tho we even try to cram it down our children's throat at times...well at least they might think we do.  The thing about it, is that parent deserves freedom from continual suffering knowing their child is lost. They don't even need to know that any more. Why would they? I know if my child was lost I wouldn't want to face eternity knowing that, I'd rather have electroshock therapy once a week to forget, you wouldn't? I won't get that in hades with my child seperated from me in heaven.


If someone makes you a lifesaving offer and you refuse to take it, who's fault is that?  Not that you would just a hypothetical question.


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## atlashunter (May 5, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> I know I have thought about that, too. But God blinded them, and that isn't their fault, so I believe God has a plan for them. Perhaps those ovens were their hades...I don't know. But I understand where you're coming from on that one. But I do believe they will be provided for. Perhaps they will rise in the rapture and be preached the Gospel to with the other Jews at Petra



I can understand and appreciate that hope. But is there any scriptural basis for it?




mtnwoman said:


> When the rapture comes and all those dead and alive in Christ will rise and go to heaven, and the Holy Spirit leaves. Imagine what earth is going to be like for the people that are still alive. Will it matter if Joe is a pretty good guy when he is surrounded by thieves, murderers, and bad people? It will be a free for all. 93% of American believe in God so that leaves the other 7% to fend for themselves against the rest of the world who will not be caught up in the rapture...I mean the unsaved rest of the world. That to me would be a hades.



There are some faulty assumptions here. Do you really expect that 93% of Americans would go in the rapture, leaving only those who don't believe in Jesus behind? Remember this really isn't about who is good and who is bad. It's about who is saved through Jesus and who isn't, right? The percentage of atheists in prison is smaller than the percentage in general population. That means you can expect a lot of christians in prison to be going with you. I'd say most people are generally good no matter what their religious views. So zap up the christians and those of us left would be fine.




mtnwoman said:


> I don't choose not to believe in God because I dislike some of the things He has done or will do.



Please don't misunderstand. I'm not saying there is no God because of some repulsive outcomes of biblical claims. All I am saying is that these things that you believe are not compatible with a moral and just God. Maybe the claims are true and God is an evil God. Maybe there is a good God and the claims aren't true. Maybe the claims aren't true and there is no God (my position). My point is only you could have one or the other be true but not both at the same time.


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## gemcgrew (May 5, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> There are some faulty assumptions here. Do you really expect that 93% of Americans would go in the rapture, leaving only those who don't believe in Jesus behind? Remember this really isn't about who is good and who is bad. It's about who is saved through Jesus and who isn't, right?



I would imagine that if the rapture took place today, it probably would not make the evening news. So few would go missing that you probably would not see an increase in missing person posters tomorrow.


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## mtnwoman (May 5, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> I can understand and appreciate that hope. But is there any scriptural basis for it?*I'm sure a Messianic Jew would know. I should probably research. I know a pretty good prophecy teacher who's studied prophecy since 73, Jimmy Deyoung...perhaps he has something on that. *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Like I said I've been where you are and back, too, so I know where you're coming from. I am a Christian and my salvation is thru Jesus Christ of the New Convenant not of the Old.


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## mtnwoman (May 5, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> I would imagine that if the rapture took place today, it probably would not make the evening news. So few would go missing that you probably would not see an increase in missing person posters tomorrow.



I didn't say 93% were saved, just believed in God....sorry I should've explained it....just trying not to be so wordy with my posts....and it was just an example to think about.

So you don't think the rapture will make an impact on the world? wow. I imagine it to be spectacular, course I believe I have a spectacular Jesus!

God made all these people, but was only capable of saving a few? Lord help our unbelief in Your power!


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## atlashunter (May 5, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> I'm sure a Messianic Jew would know. I should probably research. I know a pretty good prophecy teacher who's studied prophecy since 73, Jimmy Deyoung...perhaps he has something on that.



Just keep in mind that if this were true it would bring up a whole lot of new moral problems too.




mtnwoman said:


> Like I said I've been where you are and back, too, so I know where you're coming from. I am a Christian and my salvation is thru Jesus Christ of the New Convenant not of the Old.



It was Jesus who brought us the lake of fire concept. The jewish rabbis that I have heard speak say that jews do not believe in this christian version of the hot place. I guess the new covenant is a mixed bag.


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## mtnwoman (May 5, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Just keep in mind that if this were true it would bring up a whole lot of new moral problems too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ok, you get me to thinking, I'm gonna have to go study.  Just goes to show you, God can use anyone to do His bidding. lol.... I've been convicted for a long time that it's the devil and his demons who will live in the lake of fire and that the punishment for nonbelievers is seperation from God and their loved ones. I've never really thought nonbelievers would live in the depth of hades that satan does....and that there are levels of hades just like there are levels of heaven. Perhaps with my earthly mind, I can only see clearly to a certain point, from there I'm nearsighted....and I do keep it simple, because my popster had mental problems from ptsd from ww2 and it manifested thru religion and so I try to keep it simple. I can't dig to deep nor delve into why JW's or Mormons or Catholics believe as they do. I just stick to John3:16 and near by.

Where did all the Jews go that died before  Christ? Perhaps that's  where the holocoust Jews are.  I do know they were temporarily blinded so God does have some reponsibility for their salvation or should I say lack of salvation.


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## mtnwoman (May 5, 2012)

I found this.....eeeeeeek

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and *****mongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


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## atlashunter (May 5, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> I found this.....eeeeeeek
> 
> Revelation 21:8
> But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and *****mongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.



Quite familiar with that one. When I was around 11 or 12 I had a problem with lying to my parents when they asked if I had done my homework. Had to sit down and write out that scripture a number of times.


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## gemcgrew (May 5, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Quite familiar with that one. When I was around 11 or 12 I had a problem with lying to my parents when they asked if I had done my homework. Had to sit down and write out that scripture a number of times.



Same here, but I was told not to lie because liars will have their part in the lake of fire. That one bothered me until I caught my mom and dad in a lie. Then I had to question everything they told me.


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## mtnwoman (May 5, 2012)

Unforgiven liars, will be punished. Everyone lies....or has lied....Jesus died for liars, too.


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## gemcgrew (May 5, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> God made all these people, but was only capable of saving a few?


He saves every one of His people!



mtnwoman said:


> Lord help our unbelief


Who causes unbelief?


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## centerpin fan (May 5, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> What does that have to do with our sinful natures described in Romans 7?



A lot.  Paul deals with it in Romans 5 and 6.


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## centerpin fan (May 5, 2012)

dexrusjak said:


> What kind of loving father would put his kid in such danger?



Adam and Eve weren't in the least bit of danger.  They were on a gravy train with biscuit wheels.


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## centerpin fan (May 5, 2012)

dexrusjak said:


> Says you.



Spong is to theology what the Twinkie is to nutrition.


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## centerpin fan (May 5, 2012)

dexrusjak said:


> God chose to tempt humans causing them to sin.



Did you actually teach this to people when you were a missionary?


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## atlashunter (May 5, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> A lot.  Paul deals with it in Romans 5 and 6.



You'll have to do better than that. Romans 7 affirms that we are sinful by nature. If you think that isn't the case based on the preceding 2 chapters then show it.


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## centerpin fan (May 5, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> You'll have to do better than that.



Sorry I disappointed you.




atlashunter said:


> Romans 7 affirms that we are sinful by nature.



Does it?




atlashunter said:


> If you think that isn't the case based on the preceding 2 chapters then show it.



Must I do all the heavy lifting?


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## mtnwoman (May 5, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> He saves every one of His people!
> 
> 
> Who causes unbelief?



Well satan of course, he'd love for us to believe that God can only save a few, and we'd never chose God, God has to twist our arm.  God can not even save  enough that no will notice as you said not even the local news....I believe it will be noticed by all. But we have a different view on that.  

I'm sorry I just believe my God is all powerful and He can do what He wants to, He can choose some of us and can also let us choose, those of us He knows He can trust to do so. Me, I'm like a sheeple....the Holy Spirit, said hey you come here a minute, and I went....He called, I went....He didn't have to overcome me...I just minded Him.

Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

He that overcometh.....meaning God did not have to overcome the man to make him  come, the man overcame on his own by the power of the Word....the Word of God is a living Word...

Edit to add.....do I believe I overcame on my own power, my own ability, my own wisdom, absolutely not. I heard the word, I recognized the knock, I heard the call, after about the 10th time and I opened the door.....thank you God for your Son Jesus and sending Him to save us and for your mercy in giving me the opportunity to hear the word and to believe.


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## gemcgrew (May 5, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Who causes unbelief?





mtnwoman said:


> Well satan of course





mtnwoman said:


> I'm sorry I just believe my God is all powerful and He can do what He wants to



Except when that pesky Satan gets in the way.

There is no alternative between a God who is absolutely sovereign and no God at all. A god whose will can be resisted,  purpose can be frustrated, power can be thwarted, work can be overturned, has no title to Deity. Such a god is not fit to be worshiped.


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## atlashunter (May 6, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Who causes unbelief?





mtnwoman said:


> Well satan of course,



Who caused satan?




mtnwoman said:


> I'm sorry I just believe my God is all powerful and He can do what He wants to,



"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"
- Epicurus


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## mtnwoman (May 6, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Except when that pesky Satan gets in the way.
> 
> There is no alternative between a God who is absolutely sovereign and no God at all. A god whose will can be resisted,  purpose can be frustrated, power can be thwarted, work can be overturned, has no title to Deity. Such a god is not fit to be worshiped.



Really? Well a god that forces you to worship him, not because you love him but because he picked you out of a potluck seems pretty scary to me. And you and you and you and you are gonna love me. Not because I gave you my Son to die for your sins, but because I said so.


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## mtnwoman (May 6, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Who caused satan? *satan chose to turn against God by his own free will...God let him fall.
> 
> *"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
> Then he is not omnipotent.
> ...



God will do that, He's giving everyone free will to chose right now. One day that will all come to an end...and poof, all sin will be gone, all evil, all tears, all sickness will be gone, right now we're all...everyone...is living on free will to choose good or evil.  Evil will someday have no place here. God will destroy that. His mercy and grace is giving everyone time to chose.


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## atlashunter (May 6, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> satan chose to turn against God by his own free will...God let him fall.



Right, in other words God created a being with an evil nature that he knew would rebel against him. It happened according to his will and foreknowledge. That's what it means to be the omnipotent, omniscient, creator of all. The buck stops with you.




mtnwoman said:


> Evil will someday have no place here. God will destroy that. His mercy and grace is giving everyone time to chose.



Well until that time I suppose it is here according to his will right? Either way the Epicurus quote still applies.


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## mtnwoman (May 6, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Right, in other words God created a being with an evil nature that he knew would rebel against him. It happened according to his will and foreknowledge. That's what it means to be the omnipotent, omniscient, creator of all. The buck stops with you.
> *I guess it depends on if you believe we are created with free will, if we aren't, yes sin is God's fault...even my sin. I believe we are created with a choice.*
> 
> 
> ...



That quote means nothing to me....jibjab....lol.  Guess that's how you feel about the Word, eh?


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## gemcgrew (May 6, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Really? Well a god that forces you to worship him, not because you love him but because he picked you out of a potluck seems pretty scary to me.



God does not need you to love him. God is self sustaining, self sufficient, self existent. He needs nothing. He does not need you.

If it is unfair for God to give mercy to some men, but not all men, would it not be equally unfair for God to give mercy to fallen men if he did not also give mercy to the fallen angels?


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## mtnwoman (May 6, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> If it is unfair for God to give mercy to some men, but not all men,



Of course that's why I don't believe in pre selection...that isn't fair, either.


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## gemcgrew (May 6, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Of course that's why I don't believe in pre selection...that isn't fair, either.



Are you saying that God is unfair in that he did not also give mercy to the fallen angels?


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## Asath (May 7, 2012)

Fair?

Really?  A tornado or a flood or an earthquake or a tsunami or a hurricane drops by, and indiscriminately kills everyone in the path, without first asking who has been â€˜Savedâ€™ and should thus be spared.  Fair?  

Among the words that have little or no meaning, that one is near the top of the list. 

Unfortunately, and I apologize for enlightening the naïve and the children here â€“ there is no such thing as â€˜FAIR.â€™

 The concept itself is a personal construct, and differs even from person to person â€“ we still live in a world containing humans who â€˜Believeâ€™ that stoning people to death for the Sin of adultery, and cutting off their hands for the Sin of theft, is FAIR.

Be serious.  The whole â€˜Pollyannaâ€™ thing and the Walt Disney happy ending thing has been done to death, and one wins no extra points by pretending to adhere to utopian fantasies at the expense of what has been clearly demonstrated to be true in the here and now.

Live in the world as it actually is, or make your own.  And if one wishes to make oneâ€™s own, separate from the real one, the rest of us would be gratified if youâ€™d leave us out of it.  Weâ€™ve already been to Disney World, and didnâ€™t buy a bit of it.

(And, by the way, in order for God to be fair, there would have to be one, which is already a stretch of even Pollyannaâ€™s imagination.)


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## gemcgrew (May 7, 2012)

Asath said:


> Fair?
> 
> Really?  A tornado or a flood or an earthquake or a tsunami or a hurricane drops by, and indiscriminately kills everyone in the path, without first asking who has been â€˜Savedâ€™ and should thus be spared.  Fair?



A God who is pleased in crushing and killing his own son will have no problem in sweeping 100,000 people out to sea. Indiscriminate? No. Purposed? Yes.



Asath said:


> Unfortunately, and I apologize for enlightening the naïve and the children here â€“ there is no such thing as â€˜FAIR.â€™



 Agreed. The idea of the created, questioning the Creator in regards to fairness, is absurd.


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## atlashunter (May 7, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> I guess it depends on if you believe we are created with free will, if we aren't, yes sin is God's fault...even my sin. I believe we are created with a choice.



Free will is irrelevant if you really believe God is omnipotent and omniscient.


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## mtnwoman (May 7, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Free will is irrelevant if you really believe God is omnipotent and omniscient.



I don't see how you get that.  God is all powerful enough to give us free will if He wants to, and just because He knows everything that we will chose doesn't mean He doesn't let us make the choice. He knows whether I will chose to sin or not, even though it isn't in His will for me to sin....He knows that I will, when I will, and what the sin will be....that's all knowing. I'm not a robot.

If I choose to walk the breast cancer walk, God knows before hand if I will finish the race or whether I will be injured, He still let's me race the race because I've chosen to race the race. If He wants to intervene He can do that, too. He can let me race or He can stop me. God could stop me from sinning if He wanted to, obviously He doesn't at least not all the time, because I still sin. Otherwise God would be responsible for my sin, if I didn't have free will. Does God know I will sin before I do? Yes He is all knowing, He even knows how many hairs I have on my head, what kind of useless info is that?


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## gemcgrew (May 7, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> If He wants to intervene He can do that, too. He can let me race or He can stop me.



Does he ever stop you?


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## BrettJ (May 7, 2012)

No you can't sin in heaven.  Sin will not be present in heaven therefore a person can't sin.  A person won't want to sin because it does not exists.  As far as a mother feeling bad about her lost son, she will be in the glory of GOD.  That is so far beyond our small minds that we cannot understand it but it will far surpass any memory or thought of a loved one suffering for eternity.  That is just how Holy our God is.


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## atlashunter (May 7, 2012)

BrettJ said:


> No you can't sin in heaven.  Sin will not be present in heaven therefore a person can't sin.  A person won't want to sin because it does not exists.  As far as a mother feeling bad about her lost son, she will be in the glory of GOD.  That is so far beyond our small minds that we cannot understand it but it will far surpass any memory or thought of a loved one suffering for eternity.  That is just how Holy our God is.



I was always taught that sin is disobedience to God. How is it possible to have free will in heaven if it is impossible to disobey God? And if such a place could be created there and that is God's ideal situation, why didn't he create it here from the start?


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## atlashunter (May 7, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> I don't see how you get that.  God is all powerful enough to give us free will if He wants to, and just because He knows everything that we will chose doesn't mean He doesn't let us make the choice. He knows whether I will chose to sin or not, even though it isn't in His will for me to sin....He knows that I will, when I will, and what the sin will be....that's all knowing. I'm not a robot.
> 
> If I choose to walk the breast cancer walk, God knows before hand if I will finish the race or whether I will be injured, He still let's me race the race because I've chosen to race the race. If He wants to intervene He can do that, too. He can let me race or He can stop me. God could stop me from sinning if He wanted to, obviously He doesn't at least not all the time, because I still sin. Otherwise God would be responsible for my sin, if I didn't have free will. Does God know I will sin before I do? Yes He is all knowing, He even knows how many hairs I have on my head, what kind of useless info is that?



There can be no surprises if you are all knowing. There can be no accidents if you are all powerful. And if you're the all knowing all powerful creator of all then everything must necessarily be exactly as you chose it to be since you knew what the results would be and having the power to choose an alternate outcome, didn't.


----------



## mtnwoman (May 7, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Does he ever stop you?



How would I know? 


I've had plenty of near misses in my life....I assume they came from God and thank Him anyway.  Perhaps it was a whim of mother nature, but I still thank Him.


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## gemcgrew (May 7, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Perhaps it was a whim of mother nature, but I still thank Him.


----------



## mtnwoman (May 7, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> There can be no surprises if you are all knowing. There can be no accidents if you are all powerful. And if you're the all knowing all powerful creator of all then everything must necessarily be exactly as you chose it to be since you knew what the results would be and having the power to choose an alternate outcome, didn't.



I didn't say there were any accidents or surprises when it comes to God.  If I'm gonna die in a car wreck, even though it's an accident to me and my family...God knew that before I was born that that was gonna happen, He let it happen, could He have changed it...yes He could've, if He wanted to, and I wouldn't have died.  Did He know I was gonna chose to be saved? yes He did? Could He make me be saved, yes He could, if He wanted to....why would He if knew foreknew I was gonna say yes?

If you know your 21 yr old son is going to fry on the beach without sunscreen and he chooses not to wear sunscreen, is it your fault he got fried? because you foreknew he would fry and he did fry????


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## mtnwoman (May 7, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


>



Well quit asking questions like does God stop me.....of course He can if He wants to....He can do anything He wants to.


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## mtnwoman (May 7, 2012)

BrettJ said:


> No you can't sin in heaven.  Sin will not be present in heaven therefore a person can't sin.  A person won't want to sin because it does not exists.  As far as a mother feeling bad about her lost son, she will be in the glory of GOD.  That is so far beyond our small minds that we cannot understand it but it will far surpass any memory or thought of a loved one suffering for eternity.  That is just how Holy our God is.




Amen!


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## atlashunter (May 7, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> If you know your 21 yr old son is going to fry on the beach without sunscreen and he chooses not to wear sunscreen, is it your fault he got fried? because you foreknew he would fry and he did fry????



If you created the sun and the beach and his skin which is burned by the UV rays that you created and every detail about your son including all the miniscule factors that you knew would ultimately lead to his decision and you did all of this with the foreknowledge of the outcome and the power to choose a different outcome but didn't... yes it's your fault.

I'm sorry but if you're going to be the all knowing all powerful creator of everything then you must ultimately be in control of all things. It's unavoidable and goes with the territory.


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## mtnwoman (May 7, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> If you created the sun and the beach and his skin which is burned by the UV rays that you created and every detail about your son including all the miniscule factors that you knew would ultimately lead to his decision and you did all of this with the foreknowledge of the outcome and the power to choose a different outcome but didn't... yes it's your fault.
> 
> I'm sorry but if you're going to be the all knowing all powerful creator of everything then you must ultimately be in control of all things. It's unavoidable and goes with the territory.




So are you telling me that you didn't know your 21 year old son would burn up alive on his first trip away from dad to the beach and you didn't feel the urge to tell him to wear sunscreen, because you didn't know he'd fry out there?  Ah come on.....you knew before he went, didn't you? So letting him go without telling him to put on sunscreen WOULD be your fault popster....that's just mean.


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## atlashunter (May 7, 2012)

Suppose you were to leave a loaded gun out on a table and you chose to do so with 100% certainty that he would shoot himself. May it be said this was an event outside of your control? If not, then how could it be said that it was not according to your will? And if control was in your hands and it was according to your will (as evidenced by the choice you made)then how can you deny responsibility?


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## mtnwoman (May 7, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Suppose you were to leave a loaded gun out on a table and you chose to do so with 100% certainty that he would shoot himself. May it be said this was an event outside of your control? If not, then how could it be said that it was not according to your will? And if control was in your hands and it was according to your will (as evidenced by the choice you made)then how can you deny responsibility?



Really??? He's 21? If he wanted to shoot himself, is it gonna take you to leave a gun around for him to shoot himself or is he able to find a gun on his own? wouldn't ya think, no matter what you do, he's gonna work on his own free will, if'n he wants to kill himself? regardless of who you are?

Well I wouldn't leave a loaded gun out on a table, but I would let my granddaughter go to the beach. I know what would happen in either case....or at least what could happen. I know for sure she'd fry in the sun, I don't know for sure she wouldn't play with the gun, but I know what would happen if she did, so I'd have to be in control of that circumstance and not leave that to her free will. Course if she was 21, I could probably count on her to mind me and not touch the gun and hopefully use sunscreen too, if I told her to.

We could go round and round with this, my point being that even though sometimes we know what will happen under certain circumstances, doesn't mean others will do exactly as we tell them to do to avoid bad results from doing those things.  If I didn't have free I'm sure I wouldn't be doing the stupid things I do or at least I could blame everything I do on God.


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## gemcgrew (May 7, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> I'm sorry but if you're going to be the all knowing all powerful creator of everything then you must ultimately be in control of all things. It's unavoidable and goes with the territory.



A god that is not in control of everything is no God at all. And God doesn't make his choices by peeking into the future to see how things play out.


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## atlashunter (May 7, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Really??? He's 21? If he wanted to shoot himself, is it gonna take you to leave a gun around for him to shoot himself or is he able to find a gun on his own? wouldn't ya think, no matter what you do, he's gonna work on his own free will, if'n he wants to kill himself? regardless of who you are?



Let's revisit what you said earlier in the thread.



mtnwoman said:


> Well I thought I sort of answered it but I guess you'd have to see it from where I'm sittin' to get it. So i'll break it down.
> 
> There is no sin in heaven....because there is no satan.
> 
> ...



You made clear here that it wasn't only free will that accounted for disobedience (sin) toward God but the combination of free will and Satan. According to you God will eliminate sin in heaven by eliminating Satan and free will can remain. I'm not sure what special quality Satan must have that he can choose to exercise his free will to rebel without anyone else's assistance but humans can't but let us accept your premise.

If there will be no sin in heaven because of Satan's absence who makes that decision and ensures that it is so if not God? Is it not his choice?

Conversely, when the garden of Eden was created whose decision was it to permit Satan into this creation thus creating the conditions for sin when combined with Adam's free will? Was it Adam's decision to have free will or was it God's? Was it Adam's decision that Satan be created or was it God's? Was it Adam's decision to grant Satan access into this new creation or was it God's?

If God didn't want Satan to enter the picture then why did he choose not to stop him as you say he will do in heaven? He chose to allow Satan there to tempt Adam. He chose to grant Adam free will. He chose to put in place the two conditions that you are claiming account for sin and he did so with the full knowledge that these choices would result in sin. You've already indicated that there was another option, free will but no Satan and that would have prevented sin. Yet that isn't what God chose. What other explanation can there be for that choice other than that he chose for man to fall? It couldn't have been a test because he already knew what the outcome would be.




mtnwoman said:


> Well I wouldn't leave a loaded gun out on a table, but I would let my granddaughter go to the beach. I know what would happen in either case....or at least what could happen. I know for sure she'd fry in the sun, I don't know for sure she wouldn't play with the gun, but I know what would happen if she did, so I'd have to be in control of that circumstance and not leave that to her free will. Course if she was 21, I could probably count on her to mind me and not touch the gun and hopefully use sunscreen too, if I told her to.



More than can be said of God.


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## BrettJ (May 8, 2012)

There is Gods will and Gods permissive will.  If God wanted satan in the Garden of Eden he would have put him there.  If God didnt want satan in the Garden of Eden he would have kept him out.  But if God permited satan to go there whether He wanted him there or not is His permissive will.  God knows the the begining and the end.  Why things happen like they do is unknown to me.  I dont run things God does.  He has a plan and Im sure my little brain cant understand it but I know it will work out the be the best because God is in control.  If God lets you get sunburned oh well.  He has a plan.  If God lets childen die in tornados and hurricanes oh well.  It is a bad thing for us to loose our children but God has a plan.  God is not here to make us happy, healthy and weathy.  He wants us to be holy.  It seems that there are a lot of people trying to figure out God in a way he never intended us to.  God is not a person or celebrity.  He is not to be messed with.  He is a Holy God that is just and full of grace and love.  Some of these questions are very intersting and fun to talk about but will we ever fully understand the answers.  I doubt it.  God is God and we are just people with limited minds.  If we are going to pose all these questions, lets do it with intensions of growing closer to God with better understanding rather than putting him in a box and poking at him or blaming him for somthing that didnt go our way.


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## BrettJ (May 8, 2012)

About free will in heaven.  If you want to sin in heaven with your free will you could.  But like I said earlier there is no sin in heaven so you cant.  Use your free will to breath under water.  Just because you will to breath under water you cant.  In heaven it will be much different because how can you will to do something that doesnt exist.


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## stringmusic (May 8, 2012)

BrettJ said:


> About free will in heaven.  If you want to sin in heaven with your free will you could.  But like I said earlier there is no sin in heaven so you cant. * Use your free will to breath under water.*  Just because you will to breath under water you cant.  In heaven it will be much different because how can you will to do something that doesnt exist.



Pretty cool analogy Brett. Thanks for posting.


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## atlashunter (May 8, 2012)

BrettJ said:


> There is Gods will and Gods permissive will.  If God wanted satan in the Garden of Eden he would have put him there.  If God didnt want satan in the Garden of Eden he would have kept him out.  But if God permited satan to go there whether He wanted him there or not is His permissive will.



Whether you place a rattlesnake in your child's crib or whether you stand by and watch it enter on it's own with the full knowledge of the outcome makes little difference. Both constitute a choice on your part.


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## atlashunter (May 8, 2012)

BrettJ said:


> About free will in heaven.  If you want to sin in heaven with your free will you could.  But like I said earlier there is no sin in heaven so you cant.  Use your free will to breath under water.  Just because you will to breath under water you cant.  In heaven it will be much different because how can you will to do something that doesnt exist.



First you say you could then you say you can't. It's a poor analogy you make because there are physical limitations that prevent you from breathing water. Is there a similar limitation with respect to sin? What is sin? Is it not the choice to disobey God? What limitation could be put in place that would permit you to choose whether or not to obey (free will) while also denying you that choice?


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## mtnwoman (May 8, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Whether you place a rattlesnake in your child's crib or whether you stand by and watch it enter on it's own with the full knowledge of the outcome makes little difference. Both constitute a choice on your part.



Who do you know that would do either?....and yes you are right, they are both the same....I wouldn't place a snake in my child's crib nor would I stand by and watch someone else do that......you would...really? Wow. I have more choices than that....????


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## atlashunter (May 8, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Who do you know that would do either?



The God of the bible.


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## mtnwoman (May 8, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> The God of the bible.


  Tell me 'bout it.


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## mtnwoman (May 8, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> A god that is not in control of everything is no God at all. And God doesn't make his choices by peeking into the future to see how things play out.



God Lord why don't you march out of step!!!???? 

'Nobody has said' that God peeks at anything....we know that He knows that He knows that He knows....you are the one that denys that He has power enough to do whatever He wants to do....that He is able to know and able to give free will and still know at the same time....Lordy


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## BrettJ (May 9, 2012)

OK.  One more time.  There is no sin in heaven.  Heaven is a holy place.  There will be no desire to do someting the God will not want you to do.  We will only want to worship God and be in his glory.  When you just ate a 22oz steak, 5 lobster tails, 29 baked potatos, 16 salads and drank 3 gallons of water, do want to eat or drink any thing?  Not likely.  You are full and have your desires to eat and drink met to the fullest.  You probably couldnt eat another bite.  I know you could force yourself to try but you wont want to.  In heaven you wont have your desires to sin met and be full from it but you just will not want to do it because you cant simply because sin does not exist in heaven.  I guess it is hard to put into words because we can sin here on earth and we all do and it is so easy to do.  It is also hard to imagine something that we know so well on earth will just not exist in heaven but it wont and I am so happy that I wont have to deal with it any more in heaven.  If you are saved you will go to heaven.  If you are worried about getting thrown out of heaven for sinning in heaven, stop.  You wont.  I am sorry that I am not smart enough to explain it better.  Please just accept that there is no sin in heaven and when you get there you can ask God.


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## BrettJ (May 9, 2012)

God created man so that man can love and worship God on his own free will.  If God wanted to, He could make man worship and love Him but that is not real love.  Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden and they love and worshiped God.  Who wouldnt? They lived in the greatest place on earth.  God let Satan enter in the garden and tempt Adam and Eve.  They ate the apple and that ended the life of luxary and ease as the knew it.  Why did God allow Satan to ruin this for them?  God wanted them to still love and worship Him.  Now with all the hardships the world had to offer made life a lot harder for them and all of us today.  Now when God is loved and worshiped,  He really gets free will love and worship  because of who He is and not because he provides us with the Garden of Eden.


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## ambush80 (May 9, 2012)

BrettJ said:


> God created man so that man can love and worship God on his own free will.  If God wanted to, He could make man worship and love Him but that is not real love.  Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden and they love and worshiped God.  Who wouldnt? They lived in the greatest place on earth.  God let Satan enter in the garden and tempt Adam and Eve.  They ate the apple and that ended the life of luxary and ease as the knew it.  Why did God allow Satan to ruin this for them?  God wanted them to still love and worship Him.  Now with all the hardships the world had to offer made life a lot harder for them and all of us today.  Now when God is loved and worshiped,  He really gets free will love and worship  because of who He is and not because he provides us with the Garden of Eden.



Like in Heaven?


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## ambush80 (May 9, 2012)

When I read about what believers think Heaven is going to be like I just can't help but think what an injustice is to tell that stuff to a kid.  My little girl trusts me so much.  I can't see trying to get her to believe that an imaginary place is real.  It seems so wrong.


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## gemcgrew (May 9, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> I can't see trying to get her to believe that an imaginary place is real.  It seems so wrong.



I agree. That would be wrong.


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## stringmusic (May 9, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> Like in Heaven?



God doesn't force one to love Him or worship Him, that choice is made before a person gets to Heaven.

There is no sin in Heaven, the choice to go there gets made by accepting Jesus Christ while one is alive on this earth.


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## gemcgrew (May 9, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> God Lord why don't you march out of step!!!????


 I can't.



mtnwoman said:


> you are the one that denys that He has power enough to do whatever He wants to do



You are the only person I know, that can read my comments, and draw that conclusion.


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## bullethead (May 9, 2012)

BrettJ said:


> OK.  One more time.  There is no sin in heaven.  Heaven is a holy place.  There will be no desire to do someting the God will not want you to do.  We will only want to worship God and be in his glory.  When you just ate a 22oz steak, 5 lobster tails, 29 baked potatos, 16 salads and drank 3 gallons of water, do want to eat or drink any thing?  Not likely.  You are full and have your desires to eat and drink met to the fullest.  You probably couldnt eat another bite.  I know you could force yourself to try but you wont want to.  In heaven you wont have your desires to sin met and be full from it but you just will not want to do it because you cant simply because sin does not exist in heaven.  I guess it is hard to put into words because we can sin here on earth and we all do and it is so easy to do.  It is also hard to imagine something that we know so well on earth will just not exist in heaven but it wont and I am so happy that I wont have to deal with it any more in heaven.  If you are saved you will go to heaven.  If you are worried about getting thrown out of heaven for sinning in heaven, stop.  You wont.  I am sorry that I am not smart enough to explain it better.  Please just accept that there is no sin in heaven and when you get there you can ask God.



Impressive for someone who has never been to heaven or has ever talked to God. I bet Heaven is EXACTLY as you want it to be, probably not a coincidence.


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## bullethead (May 9, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> God doesn't force one to love Him or worship Him, that choice is made before a person gets to Heaven.
> 
> There is no sin in Heaven, the choice to go there gets made by accepting Jesus Christ while one is alive on this earth.



And yet so many people on earth are just convinced they are going to a heaven without even knowing who JC is, let alone accepting him. How did all the souls make it into heaven before JC?
Even when I was a solid Christian I never spoke for God or knew what Heaven looked like or how everyone acted and felt in heaven. Some Christians are very special to have all of this knowledge.


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## stringmusic (May 9, 2012)

bullethead said:


> And yet so many people on earth are just convinced they are going to a heaven without even knowing who JC is, let alone accepting him.


Your point?



> How did all the souls make it into heaven before JC?


Faith.



> Even when I was a solid Christian I never spoke for God or knew what Heaven looked like or how everyone acted and felt in heaven. Some Christians are very special to have all of this knowledge.



I didn't give a full explanation of Heaven, because I don't know all there is to know about it.


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## bullethead (May 9, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Your point?


They have just as good of a shot to get into heaven as you do. They have done everything "right" according to their beliefs to ensure their place in heaven.




stringmusic said:


> Faith.


Faith is no longer enough then, faith and acceptance of JC are the new requirements.
See my reply above.




stringmusic said:


> I didn't give a full explanation of Heaven, because I don't know all there is to know about it.


Maybe you want to talk to BrettJ, he can fill you in on what you don't know because just from reading his posts I am convinced that he has an inside scoop on God and Heaven.


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## bullethead (May 9, 2012)

BrettJ said:


> God created man so that man can love and worship God on his own free will.



After eons and eons of time hovering in a place that is beyond human comprehension, God finally decided that he was lonely and NEEDED to create a creature that will love and worship him. God decided that the creature will have free will and does not have to worship him, but secretly at the end of that creatures life if it so chose not to worship God(and now his son too) that creature will burn for all eternity for carrying out God's will??????????????

Awesome line of thought.


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## StriperAddict (May 9, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Impressive for someone who has never been to heaven .....


 
....  but has read _the book_.

It would do many folks a world & eternity of good if they picked it up and saw these things for themselves.  The bible makes heaven stand out in all its glory, but some would rater come here and ramble than to look at the scriptures for truth.   

Heres some verses ...
Rev 21: 1-8


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## stringmusic (May 9, 2012)

bullethead said:


> They have just as good of a shot to get into heaven as you do. They have done everything "right" according to their beliefs to ensure their place in heaven.


Truth is exclusive, everybody can't be right.





> Faith is no longer enough then, faith and acceptance of JC are the new requirements.


Faith and acceptance of Christ are one in the same.


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## bullethead (May 9, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> ....  but has read _the book_.
> 
> It would do many folks a world & eternity of good if they picked it up and saw these things for themselves.  The bible makes heaven stand out in all its glory, but some would rater come here and ramble than to look at the scriptures for truth.
> 
> ...




I know it is inconceivable to think that others HAVE read the book, MANY MANY MANY times over and have come to different conclusions than you, but yes, it happens.


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## bullethead (May 9, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Truth is exclusive, everybody can't be right.


That is true






stringmusic said:


> Faith and acceptance of Christ are one in the same.



So before JC was on the earth, the people that died........never mind.


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## stringmusic (May 9, 2012)

bullethead said:


> After eons and eons of time hovering in a place that is beyond human comprehension, God finally decided that


You seem to know what God is thinking yourself.



> he was lonely and NEEDED to create a creature that will love and worship him.


Where did you get this little tidbit?



> God decided that the creature will have free will and does not have to worship him,


You got that part right.....



> but secretly at the end of that creatures life if it so chose not to worship God(and now his son too) that creature will burn for all eternity for carrying out God's will??????????????


....this part, not so much. It is not a secret that people who choose not to spend eternity with God, don't have too.



> Awesome line of thought.


It is if it's correct.


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## bullethead (May 9, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> You seem to know what God is thinking yourself.


Nope, just coming to my own conclusions from the info given.




stringmusic said:


> Where did you get this little tidbit?


God created man so that man can love and worship God on his own free will.
Tailor made....




stringmusic said:


> You got that part right.....


See I'm following closely so i do understand....




stringmusic said:


> ....this part, not so much. It is not a secret that people who choose not to spend eternity with God, don't have too.


It IS a secret to every person that has never ever heard of God. It is only the people that heard and chose(with their given free will) to go another route that will not only NOT go to Heaven, but be tormented for all of eternity for their choice. It is not like they get to go to a decent vacation spot with a community pool, not a private one....they burn forever. You sugar coat it.




stringmusic said:


> It is if it's correct.


Odds are it is not correct.


----------



## atlashunter (May 9, 2012)

BrettJ said:


> OK.  One more time.  There is no sin in heaven.  Heaven is a holy place.  There will be no desire to do someting the God will not want you to do.  We will only want to worship God and be in his glory.  When you just ate a 22oz steak, 5 lobster tails, 29 baked potatos, 16 salads and drank 3 gallons of water, do want to eat or drink any thing?  Not likely.  You are full and have your desires to eat and drink met to the fullest.  You probably couldnt eat another bite.  I know you could force yourself to try but you wont want to.  In heaven you wont have your desires to sin met and be full from it but you just will not want to do it because you cant simply because sin does not exist in heaven.  I guess it is hard to put into words because we can sin here on earth and we all do and it is so easy to do.  It is also hard to imagine something that we know so well on earth will just not exist in heaven but it wont and I am so happy that I wont have to deal with it any more in heaven.  If you are saved you will go to heaven.  If you are worried about getting thrown out of heaven for sinning in heaven, stop.  You wont.  I am sorry that I am not smart enough to explain it better.  Please just accept that there is no sin in heaven and when you get there you can ask God.



I've already addressed your points here. Instead of simply repeating yourself try responding to what I've said. Let's start with a definition of sin and go from there.


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## BrettJ (May 9, 2012)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrettJ  
God created man so that man can love and worship God on his own free will. If God wanted to, He could make man worship and love Him but that is not real love. Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden and they love and worshiped God. Who wouldnt? They lived in the greatest place on earth. God let Satan enter in the garden and tempt Adam and Eve. They ate the apple and that ended the life of luxary and ease as the knew it. Why did God allow Satan to ruin this for them? God wanted them to still love and worship Him. Now with all the hardships the world had to offer made life a lot harder for them and all of us today. Now when God is loved and worshiped, He really gets free will love and worship because of who He is and not because he provides us with the Garden of Eden. 

Like in Heaven?    
No not like in Heaven.  You wont be forced to love and worship God in Heaven.  One does it with his own free will just like he did on earth.  If you didnt do it on earth, dont worry,  it wont matter any way.   You want be in Heaven.  You will be at the BBQ. So dont be afraid God is going to make you love and worship him.


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## bullethead (May 9, 2012)

BrettJ said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by BrettJ
> God created man so that man can love and worship God on his own free will. If God wanted to, He could make man worship and love Him but that is not real love. Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden and they love and worshiped God. Who wouldnt? They lived in the greatest place on earth. God let Satan enter in the garden and tempt Adam and Eve. They ate the apple and that ended the life of luxary and ease as the knew it. Why did God allow Satan to ruin this for them? God wanted them to still love and worship Him. Now with all the hardships the world had to offer made life a lot harder for them and all of us today. Now when God is loved and worshiped, He really gets free will love and worship because of who He is and not because he provides us with the Garden of Eden.
> 
> ...



Impressive.


----------



## ambush80 (May 9, 2012)

BrettJ said:


> Like in Heaven?
> 
> No not like in Heaven.  You wont be forced to love and worship God in Heaven.  One does it with his own free will just like he did on earth.  If you didnt do it on earth, dont worry,  it wont matter any way.   You want be in Heaven.  You will be at the BBQ. So dont be afraid God is going to make you love and worship him.



Can you just take one freaking day off from loving him, like a personal day?   How about a half day?  One day to just "do you"?  Maybe go to the dog track or have a scotch?


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## Asath (May 9, 2012)

"There is no sin in heaven. Heaven is a holy place. There will be no desire to do someting the God will not want you to do."

BUT -- "You wont be forced to love and worship God in Heaven. One does it with his own free will just like he did on earth."

I take it you've BEEN to Heaven, since this is a pretty exacting description, but if you'll pardon me, it seems a bit oppressive.

If you HAVE free will, when you get there, and the whole time you are there, in fact, but God has removed anything and everything from the place (presumably including impure thoughts) that He will not want you to do (like think, for example), then what exactly is one FREE to do?

Sounds more like a prison than a utopia.  Thank goodness you were paroled, and are back here to tell us about the details of how it works.  We thank you immensely for the heads-up.


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## mtnwoman (May 10, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> I can't.
> 
> 
> 
> You are the only person I know, that can read my comments, and draw that conclusion.



Who else is posting to ya about what you wrote?


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## mtnwoman (May 10, 2012)

BrettJ said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by BrettJ
> God created man so that man can love and worship God on his own free will. If God wanted to, He could make man worship and love Him but that is not real love. Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden and they love and worshiped God. Who wouldnt? They lived in the greatest place on earth. God let Satan enter in the garden and tempt Adam and Eve. They ate the apple and that ended the life of luxary and ease as the knew it. Why did God allow Satan to ruin this for them? God wanted them to still love and worship Him. Now with all the hardships the world had to offer made life a lot harder for them and all of us today. Now when God is loved and worshiped, He really gets free will love and worship because of who He is and not because he provides us with the Garden of Eden.
> 
> ...



Brett, you're wasting your time, just like the original poster, nobody really cares what we think, they just bait us so they can smack us upside the head with how stupid we are. 

We will have free will in heaven. We won't be robots. We will enjoy everything about life. We will spend most of forever on a perfect earth. We will have all the pros in life and none of the cons. We will be able to hunt, and fish and no one gets killed accidentally, nothing will be polluted. I could say more of what I personally think heaven would be like, as the op asked, but that would be a waste of time....someone is here with a stick to


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## mtnwoman (May 10, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> Can you just take one freaking day off from loving him, like a personal day?   How about a half day?  One day to just "do you"?  Maybe go to the dog track or have a scotch?



I'll have every day off


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## mtnwoman (May 10, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> God does not need you to love him.*Who said he did? I didn't. Does He want you to love Him and His Son?* God is self sustaining, self sufficient, self existent. He needs nothing. He does not need you.*You're kiddin'??? really??? i thought He needed me to exist........who said He did? Why would anyone think that God needs them, I never ever thought God needed me, did you? Not even when I was 4 yrs old, my first recall of God, I didn't think He needed me, I've never heard of anyone who thinks God needs them....what's your point??? Just something to crush someones importance to God? God loves us, we are important to Him, He created us, He loves us, He gave His son for us, He loves us, why put someone down by saying God doesn't need you....is that really necessary. Do you go around telling all the little children in church that 'guess what??? God doesn't need you'....just to belittle them? I think that's pretty much a given, but do you have to make a big issue out of it? God is love, ya know. Let's concentrate on that instead of telling everyone how useless they are to God.  Why don't you go around preaching the gospel, the GOOD NEWS, instead of depressing everyone to death about the negatitive stuff that you aren't even willing to testify or witness to???*
> 
> If it is unfair for God to give mercy to some men, but not all men, would it not be equally unfair for God to give mercy to fallen men if he did not also give mercy to the fallen angels?*Well I don't know, I don't think like God, do you? You seem to know exactly what God does and why, why don't you tell me. *


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## gemcgrew (May 10, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Who said he did? I didn't.


And I will take you at your word. Perhaps I read more into your comment than was there. 


mtnwoman said:


> Why don't you go around preaching the gospel, the GOOD NEWS, instead of depressing everyone to death about the negatitive stuff that you aren't even willing to testify or witness to???


The very fact that we are having this conversation nullifies your premise.


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## mtnwoman (May 10, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> The very fact that we are having this conversation nullifies your premise.



I thought you said in the freewill thread that you wanted to keep your testimony about your salvation private. If I missed it somewhere I'd love to hear it or you could guide me there.


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## StriperAddict (May 10, 2012)

bullethead said:


> I know it is inconceivable to think that others HAVE read the book, MANY MANY MANY times over and have come to different conclusions than you, but yes, it happens.


 
Then why did the BrentJ 'heaven' post get ridiculed? His quotes came from bible


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## bullethead (May 10, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> Then why did the BrentJ 'heaven' post get ridiculed? His quotes came from bible



Because not everyone that reads the bible or those quotes believes they are worth any more than the ink it took to put them in the book.


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## gemcgrew (May 10, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> I thought you said in the freewill thread that you wanted to keep your testimony about your salvation private. If I missed it somewhere I'd love to hear it or you could guide me there.



I believe it was in your "who are the elect" thread. The thread where I was accused of heresy by a Mod. I touched on it in 2 or 3 separate post. I did not have liberty in discussing the intimate details.


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## ambush80 (May 10, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> I believe it was in your "who are the elect" thread. The thread where I was accused of heresy by a Mod. I touched on it in 2 or 3 separate post. I did not have liberty in discussing the intimate details.



Ain't that sumthin?


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## mtnwoman (May 10, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> I believe it was in your "who are the elect" thread. The thread where I was accused of heresy by a Mod. I touched on it in 2 or 3 separate post. I did not have liberty in discussing the intimate details.



Well then we just have to guess at what you're getting at, right? That was my point when you said 'The very fact that we are having this conversation nullifies your premise'....we've discussed over and over in the elect thread, you haven't...you just throw these things out like God doesn't need you, therefore that = that He chose you even though He didn't need you....He chose you anyway...makes no sense to me at all.  Just ways to make little importance of us.....Lord help Me Jesus, You died for Me, yet I am not important to you. That sort of belittles God's gift to us doesn't it?

I think you have it backards.....I seek God because I need God, and you're right He doesn't need me, why would He seek me? It cannot be both ways ya know.  He chose you, because He needs you, personally? or what? or did He offer everyone a gift or just a special few that He needed. You could make my head spin right off in confusion of where you're coming from.


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## mtnwoman (May 10, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Because not everyone that reads the bible or those quotes believes they are worth any more than the ink it took to put them in the book.



Well then who the heck is the original poster asking if not those who believe?


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## bullethead (May 10, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Well then who the heck is the original poster asking if not those who believe?



Every once in a while try to think outside of the box.
Many religions or beliefs have a heaven. Not all follow the Bible. There can be and is separation. Christianity does not have exclusive rights to a heaven.


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## JB0704 (May 10, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> I believe it was in your "who are the elect" thread. The thread where I was accused of heresy by a Mod. I touched on it in 2 or 3 separate post. I did not have liberty in discussing the intimate details.



Oh, we all think the rest are heretics. It kind-of goes with what we are discussing. You should see the whipping I am taking up in the hunting forum over deer limits  I think I have made 2 mods, an admin, and a game biologist quite upset with me....unintentionally, for sure 

That being said, I appreciate your honesty and convictions of your beliefs: extremely consistent even when uncomfortable, though I disagree with some of them.


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## StriperAddict (May 11, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Christianity does not have exclusive rights to a heaven.


 
No, Just how to arrive. "Religion" looks the other way when a true "death to self" by the power of Another is concerned. Which is why the cross trips up many a "religion" and most nay-sayers.


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## gemcgrew (May 11, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Well then we just have to guess at what you're getting at, right?


I hope not. I try to discuss these things in a way as to leave no guessing as to where I stand.


mtnwoman said:


> we've discussed over and over in the elect thread, you haven't


That is not my recollection of the thread. I was quite engaged.


mtnwoman said:


> Lord help Me Jesus, You died for Me, yet I am not important to you. That sort of belittles God's gift to us doesn't it?


No. If Christ died for you it is of utmost importance. It belittles Christ to claim that He accomplished salvation for all of mankind, but did not secure it.


mtnwoman said:


> I seek God because I need God


Does one continually seek God when one has God?


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## mtnwoman (May 11, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Does one continually seek God when one has God?



I don't know if  I want to use the word seek, maybe I should say 'panteth'.....but yes I continually seek God. I don't say 'ok I'm saved, that's it'. I continue in the Word, I desire to know everything I can about His Word. I desire to be closer to Him to abide constantly in Him. I seek wisdom in His will for my life, I want to work from His will not mine...mine doesn't work out so well.

Anyway yes you were quite verbal in the elect thread, but quite secretive about exactly where you were coming from, that's my point. You'd throw short sentences out there, as you do now, but didn't or wouldn't feel comfortable or able to tell your thought process behind what you said or why.  

Saying 'God saves all His people', or 'God doesn't need you', even though I know what those quotes are intended for, other readers may get confused by that. And that may not matter to you, but it does to me....we don't need anymore stumbling blocks than we already have and to put any doubt in a believers mind about something they believe without being willing to explain the entire doctrine from where you are throwing these snipits just doesn't sit right with me. But then I'm not the judge...I'm just saying we are here to help people understand the gospel, not to feel comfortable enough to stir a pinch of confusion here and there into the pot but not comfortable enough to explain the root of that belief.


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## mtnwoman (May 11, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Every once in a while try to think outside of the box.
> Many religions or beliefs have a heaven. Not all follow the Bible. There can be and is separation. Christianity does not have exclusive rights to a heaven.



No kiddin'

Would you then explain to me what the op was asking?


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## bullethead (May 11, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> No kiddin'
> 
> Would you then explain to me what the op was asking?


It is easier for me to end our conversation.


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## gemcgrew (May 11, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> I don't say 'ok I'm saved, that's it'. I continue in the Word, I desire to know everything I can about His Word. I desire to be closer to Him to abide constantly in Him. I seek wisdom in His will for my life, I want to work from His will not mine...mine doesn't work out so well.


Well said.


mtnwoman said:


> Anyway yes you were quite verbal in the elect thread, but quite secretive about exactly where you were coming from, that's my point. You'd throw short sentences out there, as you do now, but didn't or wouldn't feel comfortable or able to tell your thought process behind what you said or why.


Sometimes when we are engaging in a point/counterpoint discussion, I am sure to be guilty.


mtnwoman said:


> we don't need anymore stumbling blocks than we already have and to put any doubt in a believers mind about something they believe without being willing to explain the entire doctrine from where you are throwing these snipits just doesn't sit right with me.


And I appreciate your admonishment. I try to be short and pointed with my comments. Sometimes when we ramble on, it becomes for others, a mile long trek through the sewer, for one good biscuit.


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## mtnwoman (May 11, 2012)

bullethead said:


> It is easier for me to end our conversation.



figures.


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## Asath (May 11, 2012)

All well and good, reading the last several dozen posts, but all of this fulminating nonsense gets us no closer to the point.  Loud and insistent is  usually the opposite of well thought out and empirically true.

In order to put forward the idea of a 'Heaven,' it would be incumbent upon the person proposing such an idea to prove, at least by anecdotal evidence, that such a thing exists.  That can't be done.

Just 'How' one achieves this fictitious fantasy is of no value if there is no such thing -- and there is not. There is not a single bit of anything at all that points us towards a 'Heaven,' aside some ancient stories that are contradictory at best and thoroughly conflicting under the most optimistic interpretations of them.

One's 'free-will,' on the other hand, is just that -- the ability to evaluate the actual world around them; to freely question the motives of those who would direct ones thoughts and deeds; the ability and willingness to ask that the truth be demonstrated PRIOR to asking one to bow down before it; the freedom to investigate other lines of thought; and the ability to reject clear nonsense that does not align with genuine observation.

Any 'free-will' argument that begins with the contention that, "God gave me the ability to reject Him, and thus live in Sin, and thus condemn myself," is so internally self-contradicting as to be absurd.  Either you believe in your God or you do not -- there can be no 'But, only IF' involved.  This is not a question involving hundreds of thousands of subtle shades of meanings and interpretations -- it is a Yes or No question.  

If the God of myth and legend is as described, then there is not, and by definition cannot be such a thing as free-will.  If it is put forward that one HAS the ability to choose, but that ability was one that was GIVEN, then it ceases immediately to be an ability, and is yet another precondition, granted not as a true 'freedom,' but more as a 'rat in a maze' sort of test.

At that point the question circles back on itself, and has only the meaning one wishes to lend.  Here is where 'Belief' parts company with 'Truth.'

You can't have a 'Heaven' unless it can be shown that there is such a thing -- and that can't be shown.  And you can't have 'free-will' if it was never your own to begin with, and was granted as a 'gift' from above.

You can only pick one -- not both. Freedom?  Or God?


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## mtnwoman (May 12, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Sometimes when we ramble on, it becomes for others, a mile long trek through the sewer, for one good biscuit.



Well I'm sure that's me....I'm the infamous, Ramblin Rose...lol. I just don't want to leave people hanging with that ?huh? look on their face. Not any one that posts here, but those who just lurk and read and never say a word or ask a question.  Lurking is not a bad thing, either. If perhaps they are curious and know nothing about the bible, then they haven't a clue as to what you're talking about, even though most of us around here, do.  Then as soon as they ask an honest question and get jumped by the wolves then they run away and never come back.

See just like this, it's long and drawn out....when I coulda just said something short and sweet...and had a whole other effect on them....like I see every day on here....not you personally.....goes something like this.........

'well if they/you (lurkers) don't get it, they/you should go read your bible'......Jesus will say "good work my good a faithful servent, thanks for your time"....eh?

That's just my conviction, not that everyone else's is the same as mine. Maybe I'm out of line here.


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## gemcgrew (May 12, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> See just like this, it's long and drawn out....when I coulda just said something short and sweet


See Asath's post above. I appreciate the time and effort he put in it. Very well thought out and articulate. He could just have said "If heaven exist, prove it. If God exist, free-will does not." But in doing so, one does not have room to ridicule or demean. I do not think it is intentional, just inherent in the rambling.



mtnwoman said:


> That's just my conviction, not that everyone else's is the same as mine. Maybe I'm out of line here.


Sometimes the best place to be is out of line.


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## BrettJ (May 14, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Brett, you're wasting your time, just like the original poster, nobody really cares what we think, they just bait us so they can smack us upside the head with how stupid we are.
> 
> We will have free will in heaven. We won't be robots. We will enjoy everything about life. We will spend most of forever on a perfect earth. We will have all the pros in life and none of the cons. We will be able to hunt, and fish and no one gets killed accidentally, nothing will be polluted. I could say more of what I personally think heaven would be like, as the op asked, but that would be a waste of time....someone is here with a stick to



You are probably right.  These people really dont understand and dont want to understand.  They think that heaven is like the world.  They dont realize that when we get to heaven, we will be made PERFECT and WILL NOT sin.  In our perfection we will only want to worship God.  They are so lost that they dont understand that is the greatest thing a person could do.  He made us and the world with everything in it and gave His son to die for our sins, and yet they would rather have the world rather than eternal life.  Maybe its time to knock the dust from our shoes.  Being that they were asking questions, I was hoping there was a chance to lead them to Christ.  If they are using their questions like to you said to bait us so they can have fun bashing us,  well its probably too late and they have the strong delusion mentioned in 2 Thesalonians and will never have a chance for salvation.  I hope they like it HOT.


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## bullethead (May 14, 2012)

BrettJ said:


> You are probably right.  These people really dont understand and dont want to understand.  They think that heaven is like the world.  They dont realize that when we get to heaven, we will be made PERFECT and WILL NOT sin.  In our perfection we will only want to worship God.  They are so lost that they dont understand that is the greatest thing a person could do.  He made us and the world with everything in it and gave His son to die for our sins, and yet they would rather have the world rather than eternal life.  Maybe its time to knock the dust from our shoes.  Being that they were asking questions, I was hoping there was a chance to lead them to Christ.  If they are using their questions like to you said to bait us so they can have fun bashing us,  well its probably too late and they have the strong delusion mentioned in 2 Thesalonians and will never have a chance for salvation.  I hope they like it HOT.



I am fascinated that YOU understand. YOU "get it". You know how it all goes and yet if you were to have a conversation on here with ten other Christians none of you would agree on everything even though they "understand,get it, and know".
I'd love to know how many times God has actually told you how it really is and how many times you have visited heaven.
I suspect that only in your own personal mind do these things exist.


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## BrettJ (May 14, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Impressive for someone who has never been to heaven or has ever talked to God. I bet Heaven is EXACTLY as you want it to be, probably not a coincidence.



No I havent been to heaven, but I have read about it in the bible.  I have talked to God.  I do it every day several times a day and yes he talks to me.  He talks to me through His word the bible.


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## BrettJ (May 14, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> I've already addressed your points here. Instead of simply repeating yourself try responding to what I've said. Let's start with a definition of sin and go from there.



Sin is rebellion agaisnt God.


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## bullethead (May 14, 2012)

BrettJ said:


> No I havent been to heaven, but I have read about it in the bible.  I have talked to God.  I do it every day several times a day and yes he talks to me.  He talks to me through His word the bible.



Maybe I will stay at a Holiday Inn, read the Bible again and REALLY "get it". I am just not easily influenced by mans words.


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## centerpin fan (May 14, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Maybe I will stay at a Holiday Inn, read the Bible again and REALLY "get it".


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## bullethead (May 14, 2012)

Yeah,I'll stay with my wife......Morgan Fairchild.....


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## centerpin fan (May 14, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Yeah,I'll stay with my wife......Morgan Fairchild.....



What are you talking about?  She's my wife!  

I miss Lovitz.


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## bullethead (May 14, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> What are you talking about?  She's my wife!
> 
> I miss Lovitz.


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## StriperAddict (May 14, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Maybe I will stay at a Holiday Inn, read the Bible again and REALLY "get it".


 
LOL!, but... _Go for it_. I could bet that with an "ok, here I am 'Lord'" prayer and just 5 min/day with the scriptures... in less than a year's time you'd have 'treasure' beyond your wildest dreams, and I and others'd be gleaning much from your words


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## bullethead (May 14, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> LOL!, but... _Go for it_. I could bet that with an "ok, here I am 'Lord'" prayer and just 5 min/day with the scriptures... in less than a year's time you'd have 'treasure' beyond your wildest dreams, and I and others'd be gleaning much from your words



striper, I appreciate you 'rootin for me but why would 5mins a day for about a year do it when hours weekly for 20 years did not?


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## BrettJ (May 14, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Maybe I will stay at a Holiday Inn, read the Bible again and REALLY "get it". I am just not easily influenced by mans words.



Maybe if you understood that it is not mans words but the inspired word of God you might get it.


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## BrettJ (May 14, 2012)

bullethead said:


> striper, I appreciate you 'rootin for me but why would 5mins a day for about a year do it when hours weekly for 20 years did not?




Im pulling for you too.  What did you not get in 20 years that caused you to walk away from God?


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## bullethead (May 14, 2012)

BrettJ said:


> Maybe if you understood that it is not mans words but the inspired word of God you might get it.



Been there, done that.
The more I read, the more I experienced, the more it became clear to me that God, any God, had nothing to do with the Bible.


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## bullethead (May 14, 2012)

BrettJ said:


> Im pulling for you too.  What did you not get in 20 years that caused you to walk away from God?



What do you mean by "what did I not get"??

For 20 years I thought I "got" it. I had a few bad experiences with the inner workings of churches, parishioners and clergy. I started to read the Bible intensely. The more I read I found myself questioning the validity of it. The more I found it fallible. The more I saw man's influence and motives.
The hardest part was not feeling guilty for doubting and asking the first question. The more questions I asked, the more I sat down with clergy, the worse I felt. I do not have a problem with God. I have a problem with organized religion portraying God to be exactly as that particular religion needs him to be to suit their needs.


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## gemcgrew (May 14, 2012)

bullethead said:


> The more questions I asked, the more I sat down with clergy, the worse I felt. I do not have a problem with God. I have a problem with organized religion portraying God to be exactly as that particular religion needs him to be to suit their needs.



Makes perfect sense to me. Did you know that for about the first two hundred years after Christ, the church never had special buildings of their own? And when at last they did,  exhortation was reduced into the issuing of commands. Organized religion and local churches, gotta love it.


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## centerpin fan (May 14, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Organized religion and local churches, gotta love it.



What would you replace them with?


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## Asath (May 14, 2012)

“Maybe if you understood that it is not mans words but the inspired word of God you might get it. “

Sorry to interrupt again, but this is one of my favorites – this is the one that made Oprah a hugely wealthy woman, and is still used as the last fallback position of everyone under the sun who cannot explain, prove, or articulate – I speak here of the ‘You just don’t GET IT,’ argument.

The implied and explicit argument here is that unless I actually BECOME the person making the contention, it will forever be impossible for me to know what is in THEIR mind.  Teenagers use this one as a weapon – “YOU don’t know ME!”  (Anyone heard that one before?)  Sorry.  Didn’t work then, won’t work now.

The fundamental problem with this argument is that it relies on an assumption of ignorance on the part of the person to whom it is delivered – and in this Forum that assumption is far from the case.  You ask us to stoop down, and forget that we understand far, far more than the accuser.

Because of that understanding, and that education, we ask quite simply – IF you propose that the ‘inspired words of God,’ were somehow put into the writing of only a terribly few people in a terribly remote part of the world at a time when hardly anyone at all was acquainted with this new-fangled invention of ‘writing,’ let alone ‘reading’ – And IF the God who gave this dictation to his very few human stenographers actually spoke those words, aloud, to those few recording secretaries – THEN HOW COME NONE OF THEM AGREE?

You see, there is a huge chasm of difference between what is often held to be “THE WORD OF GOD,” and the immediate fallback position that, “Well, Um, God INSPIRED the Word, but didn’t actually say it, so MERE MEN may have gotten it wrong.”  

Ya think?  Which is it?  GOD’S WORD, or the ‘inspired’ words of men?  Think about that one for as moment.

Did GOD write the stuff?  Or did ‘inspired’ men (without getting into just what their particular ‘Inspirations’ might have been) write it, and spread it well before most folks even learned to read?


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## bullethead (May 14, 2012)

Asath said:


> “Maybe if you understood that it is not mans words but the inspired word of God you might get it. “
> 
> Sorry to interrupt again, but this is one of my favorites – this is the one that made Oprah a hugely wealthy woman, and is still used as the last fallback position of everyone under the sun who cannot explain, prove, or articulate – I speak here of the ‘You just don’t GET IT,’ argument.
> 
> ...



bullet&head give 2 thumbs up


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## bullethead (May 14, 2012)

Asath said:


> Did GOD write the stuff?  Or did ‘inspired’ men (without getting into just what their particular ‘Inspirations’ might have been) write it, and spread it well before most folks even learned to read?



It was/is no different then compared to what modern missionaries do now. They teach people to believe. They condition people to believe. NONE of the converted have experienced Jesus before they were believers and somehow once converted they can relate everything to him. Uneducated and illiterate due to seclusion from the modern world, social status in ancient times or due to being and infant has everyone on the same playing field when it comes to being "taught" how to believe.

I cannot ever remember NOT hearing about God and Jesus when I was young and unable to read or write. I did not have to read the Bible in order to get my first taste of either of them. The Bible was there long after I had already been made a believer and it was the logical next step once I could read. Sunday school was a great start to reading the Bible and having the scripture "explained". Odd observance here... We never learned anything but the "good" verses. In fact no where in any sort of organized religion scenario did we spend any time on ALL the verses in the Bible. It was only as I grew into a young adult that I noticed all the verses and then felt guilty for going against my teachings and conditioning.


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## bullethead (May 14, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> What would you replace them with?



Individuals that can think for themselves with no obligation to fork over money to be closer to a God.


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## gemcgrew (May 14, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> What would you replace them with?


I think there are more drawbacks than advantages with local church buildings. Why not consider church homes?
 "Likewise greet the church that is in their house." (Rom 16:5) 
"The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house." (1 Cor 16:19) 
"Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house." (Col. 4:15) 
"And to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in thy house:" (Phil. verse 2)

Is there a single instance in the New Testament where the early Christians ever built what we call a house of worship?


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## gemcgrew (May 14, 2012)

bullethead said:


> It was/is no different then compared to what modern missionaries do now. They teach people to believe. They condition people to believe.


Very true for the most part. There are missionaries that proclaim the Gospel. They do not coax professions of faith. They are not in the soul winning business. That is the work of the Holy Spirit.


bullethead said:


> I cannot ever remember NOT hearing about God and Jesus when I was young and unable to read or write. I did not have to read the Bible in order to get my first taste of either of them. The Bible was there long after I had already been made a believer and it was the logical next step once I could read. Sunday school was a great start to reading the Bible and having the scripture "explained". Odd observance here... We never learned anything but the "good" verses. In fact no where in any sort of organized religion scenario did we spend any time on ALL the verses in the Bible. It was only as I grew into a young adult that I noticed all the verses and then felt guilty for going against my teachings and conditioning.


And it was for me as well.


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## centerpin fan (May 14, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Why not consider church homes?



Fine by me.




gemcgrew said:


> Is there a single instance in the New Testament where the early Christians ever built what we call a house of worship?



They didn't have to.  They took advantage of the houses of worship that were already built:

"Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts." -- Acts 2:46

"The apostles performed many signs and wonders among the people. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon’s Colonnade." -- Acts 5:12


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## centerpin fan (May 14, 2012)

This:



bullethead said:


> Individuals that can think for themselves with no obligation to fork over money to be closer to a God.



... and this:



gemcgrew said:


> Organized religion and local churches



... are not mutually exclusive.


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## gemcgrew (May 14, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> They didn't have to.  They took advantage of the houses of worship that were already built:
> 
> "Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts." -- Acts 2:46
> 
> "The apostles performed many signs and wonders among the people. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon’s Colonnade." -- Acts 5:12



I agree. When I read Acts 2:46 and then read Acts 5:42, it appears to have been very temporary. Before the Jews came to understand the issue, Jewish believers were welcome in the temple and were asked to speak. When the temple was denied them, only the house remained.


----------



## Asath (May 14, 2012)

“I cannot ever remember NOT hearing about God and Jesus when I was young and unable to read or write.”

Reason Number Three why Sex is better than Religion:  It is illegal to force sex on children.

Ever dwell on the thought, for even a moment, of WHY the hyper-religious are so keen on having their message presented, undiluted, to school-children?

In most contexts, forcing odd adult fantasies onto children – and this includes everything from parents who believe in faith-healing, to parental dreams of being supported by a future sports All-Star, to folks who force children into ‘Beauty Pageants’ at age six, and back again across all spectrums – is considered, now, to be worse than unfair on the face of it, and has been criminalized as abusive parenting in nearly every civilized nation.  

Times change.  Huh?  Except with a few self-elected and very vocal minorities.

Funny thing is, we don’t even need to argue anymore.  The early-indoctrination-based Believers in whatever it is they ‘believe’ have accidentally sabotaged THEMSELVES by slicing their ‘beliefs’ into ever smaller segments, pitting righteous sect against equally righteous sect, and they are actually serving their own means to what will ultimately be the ‘End.’  All by themselves.

For them --  Divided they Fall.

For humanity, progress, rationality, intellect, science, and practicality – Good riddance.


----------



## BrettJ (May 15, 2012)

Asath said:


> “Maybe if you understood that it is not mans words but the inspired word of God you might get it. “
> 
> Because of that understanding, and that education, we ask quite simply – IF you propose that the ‘inspired words of God,’ were somehow put into the writing of only a terribly few people in a terribly remote part of the world at a time when hardly anyone at all was acquainted with this new-fangled invention of ‘writing,’ let alone ‘reading’ – And IF the God who gave this dictation to his very few human stenographers actually spoke those words, aloud, to those few recording secretaries – THEN HOW COME NONE OF THEM AGREE?
> 
> ...




What do you mean NONE of them agree?  Why would God have to actually say His words for "mere men" to get it right.  Satan didnt say a spoken word to you, but you still got it wrong just like he wanted you to. The men that wrote the bible wrote exactly what God wanted them to write.  I guess you would think that it is a fairy tale written over that long period of time with prophecy that just happened to come true hundreds of years after being told.


----------



## bullethead (May 15, 2012)

BrettJ said:


> What do you mean NONE of them agree?  Why would God have to actually say His words for "mere men" to get it right.  Satan didnt say a spoken word to you, but you still got it wrong just like he wanted you to. The men that wrote the bible wrote exactly what God wanted them to write.  I guess you would think that it is a fairy tale written over that long period of time with prophecy that just happened to come true hundreds of years after being told.



And people wonder why others run away in droves from religion.

Brettj, please explain what prophecy just happened to come true.
There is a reason the Jews believe and worship like they do and it is because the prophecy was never fulfilled. I am SURE Satan has clouded their practices for thousands of years but enlighten us with the OT prophecy that has come true.


----------



## BrettJ (May 15, 2012)

Brettj, please explain what prophecy just happened to come true.


The phophecy of Jesus Christ.  It came true and he died on the cross and was pierced  in the side and lots were cast for his clothes.  It all happend as phophesied.


----------



## bullethead (May 15, 2012)

BrettJ said:


> Brettj, please explain what prophecy just happened to come true.
> 
> 
> The phophecy of Jesus Christ.  It came true and he died on the cross and was pierced  in the side and lots were cast for his clothes.  It all happend as phophesied.



You have a lot to learn.


----------



## BrettJ (May 15, 2012)

Dont tell me thats all you have to say.  Alot to learn about what?  The Truth?  Jesus said He is the Truth.  Or maybe I need to learn that you think you are smarter than God.  You seem to disagree with everything He says.  Maybe thats because you are running from Him and your convictions.  Im not trying to be harsh towards you.  I just seem to have answers to some of your questions and when you here them, you come back with some smart comment.  Do you believe that there is a God and He has a son named Jesus?


----------



## bullethead (May 15, 2012)

BrettJ said:


> Dont tell me thats all you have to say.  Alot to learn about what?  The Truth?  Jesus said He is the Truth.  Or maybe I need to learn that you think you are smarter than God.  You seem to disagree with everything He says.  Maybe thats because you are running from Him and your convictions.  Im not trying to be harsh towards you.  I just seem to have answers to some of your questions and when you here them, you come back with some smart comment.  Do you believe that there is a God and He has a son named Jesus?



Have you taken the time to research why the Jews say the prophecy has not been fulfilled? There are good examples of why Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies.

You can be as harsh as you'd like. You have answers, but unfortunately those answers have not been proven to be correct.

I do not believe in the God of the Bible or that God had a son named Jesus.


----------



## bullethead (May 15, 2012)

Here are just a few sites to check out. 

http://www.hanefesh.com/Jewish-Christian_Talk.htm

http://www.religionfacts.com/jesus/messiah.htm

http://judaism.about.com/od/judaismbasics/a/Jewish-View-Of-Jesus.htm


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## bullethead (May 15, 2012)

Another:
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/DebunkingChristians/Page26.htm


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## bullethead (May 15, 2012)

One more:
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/mashiach.htm


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## mtnwoman (May 16, 2012)

bullethead said:


> striper, I appreciate you 'rootin for me but why would 5mins a day for about a year do it when hours weekly for 20 years did not?



hours? that's like slavery. The real Jesus will set you free.....I don't think you've met Him, yet.  We are not saved by works, but by faith....alone.  None of us will ever  earn enough stars/points/hailmarys/merits/brownie points/fullorpartialdunksorsprinkles/ to deserve what Jesus did on the cross.


----------



## mtnwoman (May 16, 2012)

bullethead said:


> You have a lot to learn.



Yes he does!! But he understands a lot more than others I've met.
He's mounted up on wings of eagles!!


----------



## mtnwoman (May 16, 2012)

bullethead said:


> And people wonder why others run away in droves from religion.*Really......remember the 93% that believe in a god?*
> 
> Brettj, please explain what prophecy just happened to come true.
> There is a reason the Jews believe and worship like they do and it is because the prophecy was never fulfilled. I am SURE Satan has clouded their practices for thousands of years but enlighten us with the OT prophecy that has come true.



Really??.....you know the bible from front to back?...come on..?  


Isaiah 53 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

53 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


----------



## mtnwoman (May 16, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Have you taken the time to research why the Jews say the prophecy has not been fulfilled? There are good examples of why Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies.*Name a few.....*



Well did you ever 'think' that the Jews maybe thought differently than the almighty.....obviously they did.

If you know the bible like you say then you would know that the Jews are temporarily blinded, to graft in the gentiles. That gives us all free will/free choice/ or whatever you wanna name it. 

If you know that...why are you acting like you think it's something else?  There are good examples eh? ......give me one.


----------



## bullethead (May 16, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Well did you ever 'think' that the Jews maybe thought differently than the almighty.....obviously they did.
> 
> If you know the bible like you say then you would know that the Jews are temporarily blinded, to graft in the gentiles. That gives us all free will/free choice/ or whatever you wanna name it.
> 
> If you know that...why are you acting like you think it's something else?  There are good examples eh? ......give me one.



As in the case with MOST of the conversations on here, you jump in late and ask for things that have already been provided.( and actually you asked for THE SAME proof, and got it, months ago in a thread) If you so choose not to check out the  five links that I provided in three posts already then you are out of luck. I can see a pattern in that you read and get out of that reading what you want to get out of it, then skip over the rest as if it did not exist. You do it here and definitely do it within the Bible.


----------



## BrettJ (May 16, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> The real Jesus will set you free.....I don't think you've met Him, yet.  We are not saved by works, but by faith....alone.
> 
> That is exactly right.  I dont think he has met him yet either and I dont think he grasps the concept of faith.


----------



## bullethead (May 16, 2012)

Originally Posted by bullethead View Post
And people wonder why others run away in droves from religion. 

Then added to by mtnwomanReally......remember the 93% that believe in a god?

Did I post "no wonder why others run away in droves from God"?

You HAVE GOT to start actually comprehending what is written. Go with the facts instead of what you make up.

Here is another link, you won't know what it says unless you actually click on it and read it.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2009-03-09-american-religion-ARIS_N.htm


----------



## bullethead (May 16, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> hours? that's like slavery. The real Jesus will set you free.....I don't think you've met Him, yet.  We are not saved by works, but by faith....alone.  None of us will ever  earn enough stars/points/hailmarys/merits/brownie points/fullorpartialdunksorsprinkles/ to deserve what Jesus did on the cross.



Yes, yes, yes......
I did it all wrong.
I should have been more like you.
YOU have the I'm the Real Jesus #1 Fan market cornered.

2-3 hours weekly of reading the bible and worship is like slavery? Who knew???? 
I spend more time in my "office" on the porcelain "office chair" reading hunting magazines.


----------



## bullethead (May 16, 2012)

BrettJ said:


> mtnwoman said:
> 
> 
> > The real Jesus will set you free.....I don't think you've met Him, yet.  We are not saved by works, but by faith....alone.
> ...


----------



## atlashunter (May 16, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> If you know the bible like you say then you would know that the Jews are temporarily blinded, to graft in the gentiles. That gives us all free will/free choice/ or whatever you wanna name it.



How does being blinded by God fit in with free will?


----------



## bullethead (May 16, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> How does being blinded by God fit in with free will?



atlas, stop using facts to make sense.


----------



## mtnwoman (May 17, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> How does being blinded by God fit in with free will?



What I was trying to say, is that the Jews are God's chosen people. They were temporarily blinded to graft in the gentiles....those gentiles who wanted to be grafted by their own free will, those who chose not to were not grafted/forced in....ie I'm adopted...I was not part of God's chosen people. I hope that makes sense.


----------



## mtnwoman (May 17, 2012)

bullethead said:


> As in the case with MOST of the conversations on here, you jump in late and ask for things that have already been provided.( and actually you asked for THE SAME proof, and got it, months ago in a thread) If you so choose not to check out the  five links that I provided in three posts already then you are out of luck. I can see a pattern in that you read and get out of that reading what you want to get out of it, then skip over the rest as if it did not exist. You do it here and definitely do it within the Bible.



Really?

When you post the same thing over and over why would you  expect to get different responses over and over? You say the same thing every time I post something, that you've given me links links links.....

You can do that but I can't....alrighty then.....it's always been your playground...


----------



## gemcgrew (May 17, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> What I was trying to say, is that the Jews are God's chosen people. They were temporarily blinded to graft in the gentiles....


And what of the gentiles prior to this?


mtnwoman said:


> those gentiles who wanted to be grafted by their own free will, those who chose not to were not grafted/forced in....ie I'm adopted...I was not part of God's chosen people. I hope that makes sense.


Apparently with your adoption process, the adopted gets to choose the adopter.


----------



## bullethead (May 17, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Really?
> 
> When you post the same thing over and over why would you  expect to get different responses over and over? You say the same thing every time I post something, that you've given me links links links.....
> 
> You can do that but I can't....alrighty then.....it's always been your playground...



Yes, REALLY
You are making my point for me.
I gave three posts with the answers you are looking for and in the post right under mine, you ask for those answers again. The ones I originally posted could not be more clear.


----------



## bullethead (May 17, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> What I was trying to say, is that the Jews are God's chosen people. They were temporarily blinded to graft in the gentiles....those gentiles who wanted to be grafted by their own free will, those who chose not to were not grafted/forced in....ie I'm adopted...I was not part of God's chosen people. I hope that makes sense.



If God blinded the Jews, even temporarily, he took away their free will. The Jews did not have a choice.


----------



## atlashunter (May 17, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> What I was trying to say, is that the Jews are God's chosen people. They were temporarily blinded to graft in the gentiles....those gentiles who wanted to be grafted by their own free will, those who chose not to were not grafted/forced in....ie I'm adopted...I was not part of God's chosen people. I hope that makes sense.



Do you mean they were blinded just long enough to crucify Jesus or are they still blinded? In a previous conversation about the holocaust victims you said that they were blinded. That amounts to 2000 years worth of generation after generation of blinded jews rejecting christ and going to the hot place. What of their free will? And what does their blinding have to do with your ability to accept christ?


----------



## StriperAddict (May 17, 2012)

bullethead said:


> striper, I appreciate you 'rootin for me but why would 5mins a day for about a year do it when hours weekly for 20 years did not?


 
Note the suggested prayer in my post.

Anyone can get lost in scripture for 'head knowledge', but I am convinced the One who inspiried it wants to speak through it in a way that will do more than assuage our scientific curiousity.  I cannot open the book without asking for help.  And God has been faithful every time.  Approaching the Lord with all doubts at hand is far better than coming 'alone' to the scriptures "fully convinced" in one's own self before reading.


----------



## bullethead (May 17, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> Note the suggested prayer in my post.
> 
> Anyone can get lost in scripture for 'head knowledge', but I am convinced the One who inspiried it wants to speak through it in a way that will do more than assuage our scientific curiousity.  I cannot open the book without asking for help.  And God has been faithful every time.  Approaching the Lord with all doubts at hand is far better than coming 'alone' to the scriptures "fully convinced" in one's own self before reading.



In a way I am glad not everyone can come to the same conclusions. Striper, I have said it before but here it goes again...there was a time that I was as open to the Lord as could be. I gave all I had to give spiritually. I went into it with no blinders on. It just did not work out for me. I know it is hard for someone to believe that. I know at one time I could not believe hearing something like that myself, but it is true. I experienced it and lived it. Where I am now is the result. Everyone is different and one of the reasons why I do not think any one religion has the market cornered for being the more right religion. If it was a one size fits all there would be only one religion.


----------



## StriperAddict (May 18, 2012)

Thanks for your honest answer. You raise an interesting thought with the 'one size' idea though, bullet. You suggest that because of our differences we would have ourselves a different god, or that our differences cancel a 'one path' idea to the One true.  
What some fail to see is the invitation is open to all. Shouldn't it make sense that a single path could be found to the true, rather than many paths which would lead to confusion?  
But in Christ the offer is open to all: the dirtiest of sinner to the destitute drunkard, to the rich and to the poor, 
to the lonely lost lot of mankind of which I qualify in spades. 

I guess the only bunch Jesus had trouble with were the religious, those that thought they had great favor for their knowledge of Gods law.  

But law and religion will never tap into the deep need of the human heart... the need that is resident in us all...

Relationship with our Creator.  The kind that lasts forever because it turns out He does all the work to "get" us there.

Christ came to bring life abundant, and destroy the sin within each of us by offering Himself to do the entire work.  All our good stuff to earn rights to Gods side is tainted, having selfish intentions throughout. But when Christ comes, He opens His arms to the whole lot of self-righteous-struggling sinful humanity and by His own sinless life takes on our junk and begins this new path within us.  He becomes our life. The book of Romans says we are saved by His life. That is the great news of this One man ..  anyone and everyone is welcome to start again, and have the best friend lead us, in this life and into the incredible life to come.

So for me, the one size fits all works. I've seen His love break the heart of a militant muslim to tears, and the same man went on to share that love of Christ to others.  
And to countless others, of all shapes and sizes, and from different convictions, ideologies, beliefs and perspectives... Christ became to them "that" One.

Bullet, I wish you the best in hashing out the things that are most important to you, and I hope one day you won't throw out "the baby with the bathwater".  In the end, you won't see it as where _you _are reaching to God, but you'll find that it is Heaven reaching to you.  God's Son suffered the complete absence of His Father in what I believe was the equivalent of eternity, all for our sakes, so it is we who get the better part of the deal, never having to suffer the same... all by His one offering of Himself for all time.  One cross really does fit all.


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## mtnwoman (May 18, 2012)

bullethead said:


> If God blinded the Jews, even temporarily, he took away their free will. The Jews did not have a choice.



Yes, I know that, I've posted that before....perhaps you should be more careful to take notice of what I say in MY posts, too...


----------



## mtnwoman (May 18, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Do you mean they were blinded just long enough to crucify Jesus or are they still blinded? In a previous conversation about the holocaust victims you said that they were blinded. That amounts to 2000 years worth of generation after generation of blinded jews rejecting christ and going to the hot place. What of their free will? And what does their blinding have to do with your ability to accept christ?



I would answer that, but since I already have in past posts, I'm gonna take after bulletguy and let you go hunt it down....

Like I've said, God made that choice for them, I'm sure He has a pervision for them, and I don't believe they went to the hot place. 

They are still temporarily blinded, except for the messianic Jews....if they have not converted to Christianity, they are still blinded.


----------



## mtnwoman (May 18, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> And what of the gentiles prior to this?*Anyone that isn't a Jew. What do you think of the gentiles before this?*
> 
> Apparently with your adoption process, the adopted gets to choose the adopter.


*Huh?*

God offered to take me into the fold and graft me into the vine and I said yes. I am not a Jew yet I am 'adopted/accepted' into the family of the God of Abraham by God's grace and mercy.


----------



## mtnwoman (May 18, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Yes, yes, yes......
> I did it all wrong.
> I should have been more like you.
> YOU have the I'm the Real Jesus #1 Fan market cornered.
> ...




OH SNAP! My bad....this is what I was responding to

bullethead to striper, I appreciate you 'rootin for me but why would 5mins a day for about a year do it when hours weekly for 20 years did not?>>>

You said hours a week, I didn't know you only meant 2 or 3 hours a week like it was skullduggery or torture or something.....I should learn to read minds.....2 or 3 hours a week isn't very long...and for 20 yrs....wow. I bet you really got a lot of good out of that. I thought you really studied for hours and hours, that's why I thought it resembled slavery, since you talk about being freed from all that........ I thought maybe your mama said...hey bulletboy, git in there and read your bible 5 hours a day.

I'm sorry I always post later than you'd like. I'm not sittin' here every minute waiting for you to post so I can respond promptly. I come here when I can.....like most everyone else does.


----------



## mtnwoman (May 18, 2012)

bullethead said:


> As in the case with MOST of the conversations on here, you jump in late and ask for things that have already been provided.( and actually you asked for THE SAME proof, and got it, months ago in a thread) If you so choose not to check out the  five links that I provided in three posts already then you are out of luck. I can see a pattern in that you read and get out of that reading what you want to get out of it, then skip over the rest as if it did not exist. You do it here and definitely do it within the Bible.



I know I know I've heard this all before. 

Why do you ask Brett the same questions you've already ask us, if you don't want to hear the same answers or responses that you heard the last time you ask or last time you posted a link. If it was covered months ago why do you bring it up to every new person that starts posting on here? If you can ask the same questions or post the same responses, so can the rest of us. None of us are gonna go back and search thru threads, like you think we should carefully store every word, every link you post in a special folder in our brain, so you won't have to go over it again. Quit bringing up the same stuff over and over in every thread and maybe you won't get that.

You remind me of archie bunker


----------



## bullethead (May 18, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> I know I know I've heard this all before.
> 
> Why do you ask Brett the same questions you've already ask us, if you don't want to hear the same answers or responses that you heard the last time you ask or last time you posted a link. If it was covered months ago why do you bring it up to every new person that starts posting on here? If you can ask the same questions or post the same responses, so can the rest of us. None of us are gonna go back and search thru threads, like you think we should carefully store every word, every link you post in a special folder in our brain, so you won't have to go over it again. Quit bringing up the same stuff over and over in every thread and maybe you won't get that.
> 
> You remind me of archie bunker



I keep a list of individuals answers so that I can see if the majority of believers believe alike or if they each have something uniquely different to add......something that maybe I have not thought of before and that could get me thinking on another level.

mtnwoman, you get spitefully hung up on an answer I give and turn it into something it is not. This week your whining about me saying that "You ask for answers that have already been given in previous posts". And it is true, BUT what you fail to acknowledge is that was posted IN ADDITION to me actually posting the links so everyone knows what I am talking about and can reference with ONE click! I did not ask the *people that I was in conversation with* to search through past links....I provided them that info already and THEN you jump in (on the very next post under the answers you seek) and ask for the answers that are already posted!!!!
I did not tell you to go look for them in past posts I just mentioned I had posted them once directly above you in that thread and had done so previously in conversations that you and I had already..
I provided all the information necessary to back up my statements to the people I was currently in conversation with. I did not ask them to search through past posts.
Don't twist things to suit yourself.

You remind me of Chrissy Snow

 Do me a favor, in the future ignore my posts. I'm gonna take my own advice and ignore yours.


----------



## Artfuldodger (May 18, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> I would answer that, but since I already have in past posts, I'm gonna take after bulletguy and let you go hunt it down....
> 
> Like I've said, God made that choice for them, I'm sure He has a pervision for them, and I don't believe they went to the hot place.
> 
> They are still temporarily blinded, except for the messianic Jews....if they have not converted to Christianity, they are still blinded.



God temporarily blinding or partial hardening the Jews does seem like he wouldn't send them to He!! to me either. Now if they are still blinded, I don't know.


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## bullethead (May 18, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> God temporarily blinding or partial hardening the Jews does seem like he wouldn't send them to He!! to me either. Now if they are still blinded, I don't know.



Wouldn't partially blinding them take away their free will?

Also, the Jews that follow Judaism( chosen people) do not follow Jesus(still blinded) so are they going to h3ll or do they get a special exception?


----------



## centerpin fan (May 18, 2012)

bullethead said:


> You remind me of Chrissy Snow.



There's a blast from the past.


----------



## bullethead (May 18, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> There's a blast from the past.


----------



## atlashunter (May 18, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> I would answer that, but since I already have in past posts, I'm gonna take after bulletguy and let you go hunt it down....
> 
> Like I've said, God made that choice for them, I'm sure He has a pervision for them, and I don't believe they went to the hot place.
> 
> They are still temporarily blinded, except for the messianic Jews....if they have not converted to Christianity, they are still blinded.



Why do Christians not think through the implications of their claims before making them? I realize that in all of these discussions more often than not Christians are just coming up with answers that they think sound good but please stop and think about what you are making up would actually mean if it were true. Try some critical thinking for a change.


----------



## bullethead (May 18, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Why do Christians not think through the implications of their claims before making them? I realize that in all of these discussions more often than not Christians are just coming up with answers that they think sound good but please stop and think about what you are making up would actually mean if it were true. Try some critical thinking for a change.



As long as one can highlight the good and not think too deeply it all works out.


----------



## ambush80 (May 18, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> God temporarily blinding or partial hardening the Jews does seem like he wouldn't send them to He!! to me either. Now if they are still blinded, I don't know.



Don't let this thought rest.  Recognize the things you have to ignore and the hoops you have to go through for it to make sense.  Then ask yourself "What EXACTLY am I worshiping?"


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## atlashunter (May 18, 2012)

bullethead said:


> As long as one can highlight the good and not think too deeply it all works out.



No matter what topic we discuss it always comes back to this. They don't think things through. It's just intellectual laziness.


----------



## TheBishop (May 18, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> No matter what topic we discuss it always comes back to this. They don't think things through. It's just intellectual laziness.



Sometimes I shouldn't drink coffee and read these post.  Now I got it on my shirt, my keyboard, and coming out my nose!  Thanks!


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## atlashunter (May 18, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> Sometimes I shouldn't drink coffee and read these post.  Now I got it on my shirt, my keyboard, and coming out my nose!  Thanks!



I know you feel my pain!


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## TheBishop (May 18, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> I know you feel my pain!



I wouldn't have laughed if it wasn't so true!


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## gemcgrew (May 18, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> They don't think things through. It's just intellectual laziness.



I understand that the atheist consider theirs to be the more intellectual position. "_They don't think things through_". I could just as easily come back with "God's reality and precepts are so evident that you cannot consistently deny Him. But you are too stupid and wicked to admit it. You are dishonest, so you try to suppress what you know". 

But how does that further the discussion?


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## TheBishop (May 18, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> I understand that the atheist consider theirs to be the more intellectual position. "_They don't think things through_". I could just as easily come back with "God's reality and precepts are so evident that you cannot consistently deny Him. But you are too stupid and wicked to admit it. You are dishonest, so you try to suppress what you know".
> 
> But how does that further the discussion?



Except that it is more evident, that reality, and the bible clash so consistently, that anything derived from such cannot be construed as truth. Interpretations are not truth.  Belief is not truth.  Two non-truths do not make truth.


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## mtnwoman (May 20, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> I understand that the atheist consider theirs to be the more intellectual position. "_They don't think things through_". I could just as easily come back with "God's reality and precepts are so evident that you cannot consistently deny Him. But you are too stupid and wicked to admit it. You are dishonest, so you try to suppress what you know".
> 
> But how does that further the discussion?



Well all they really need is a hammer(and some links)  and us to knock in the head, they got notta thang. Nothin' they can prove, only things they can mock and make fun of.....like us.  Don't stop me though...obviously. 
I've got the fruit of longsuffering down pat...lol.

Even our questions are too stupid for them to answer..........or maybe they don't have an answer, I just thought about that...yeah that's it!!!!


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## mtnwoman (May 20, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> Except that it is more evident, that reality, and the bible clash so consistently, that anything derived from such cannot be construed as truth. Interpretations are not truth.  Belief is not truth.  Two non-truths do not make truth.



That's a mighty big fish you got there bishop, is it reality or photoshopped?


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## mtnwoman (May 20, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> No matter what topic we discuss it always comes back to this. They don't think things through. It's just intellectual laziness.



I thought it was always my ignorance and links that it always comes back to.....dang we just can't do nothin' right can we?


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## mtnwoman (May 20, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> Don't let this thought rest.  Recognize the things you have to ignore and the hoops you have to go through for it to make sense.  Then ask yourself "What EXACTLY am I worshiping?"



No, we don't have to ask what we are worshipping....it's you that's wondering what we're worshipping.....we know.
There are no hoops. The only hoops I feel like I ever jump through on a daily basis is coming in here to discuss things with y'all.....cause I've gotta watch my ps and qs and rarely get an answer that makes any sense whatsoever.
Nothin' lazy about dealing with y'all....I can tell you that....running in circles and trying to figure out which mulberry bush you're running around today, can't keep your stories straight from one post to the next, you change up......that's called hoop jumping. The bible remains consistant. I can read it today and it will be the same thing I read tomorrow, at least I get that much out of it....the same story, consistantly. I don't get that from y'all or y'alls beliefs, which I don't even know what those are really.


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## atlashunter (May 20, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> Except that it is more evident, that reality, and the bible clash so consistently, that anything derived from such cannot be construed as truth. Interpretations are not truth.  Belief is not truth.  Two non-truths do not make truth.



^This. And the making stuff up as you go only makes matters worse, especially when you throw something out there without considering what it would mean if it were actually true.

I'm more and more coming to the conclusion that there are those who put what is true above their feelings and what they would like to be true and there are those who don't. That seems to be a core difference.


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## atlashunter (May 20, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Well all they really need is a hammer(and some links)  and us to knock in the head, they got notta thang. Nothin' they can prove, only things they can mock and make fun of.....like us.  Don't stop me though...obviously.
> I've got the fruit of longsuffering down pat...lol.
> 
> Even our questions are too stupid for them to answer..........or maybe they don't have an answer, I just thought about that...yeah that's it!!!!



I don't know about proofs but that's quite a theory you've got with the jews being blinded and all. So much for their free will. Either they get to burn or they get a free pass that nobody else gets.

Here is what this thread boils down to.

Why is there evil and sin in the world if God is able and willing to stop it?

Theist Answer: Free will! God wants you to choose to love and be with him!

What about all the evil in the world that has nothing to do with human decisions?

Theist Answer:


Will there be any sin in heaven?

Theist Answer: No. Sin is repulsive to God and he does not allow it in his presence.

If there is no sin in heaven does that mean there will be no free will in heaven?

Theist Answer: No there will be free will in heaven but no sin.

What!? How can that be if free will here on earth is the reason we have evil?

Theist Answer: Well here on earth there is free will AND a devil to tempt us to sin. God won't allow the devil into heaven so there will be no temptation to sin even though we will still have free will.

Well if that is the end result God wants and he already knows who is going to exercise their free will and choose him why not create only those people and avoid the suffering of all those he already knows will burn for eternity? And if sin is so anathema to God and the devil is a necessary component of sin why not get rid of the devil altogether so that his Genesis creation doesn't get corrupted? Then he wouldn't get so upset with mankind for doing what he knew they would do. He could avoid the flood and even the torturous murder of his own son to satisfy the debt owed to him.

Theist Answer:


Or alternative theist answer: You got nothing and you can't prove anything!


Now... while we are on this topic of free will consider that the soul is said to be imparted at conception and consider all the billions through history that were never even born which presumably go to heaven. I would venture to say that these people who never even had a life here on earth would represent a majority of the population in heaven. From conception straight to heaven with no free will involved at all. Yet all the suffering and evil on this earth is here by God's choice because he wants only those with him who choose it of their own free will.

And it's the non-believers whose story keeps changing?


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## mtnwoman (May 20, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> ^This. And the making stuff up as you go only makes matters worse, especially when you throw something out there without considering what it would mean if it were actually true.*You know that works both ways. I'd rather live with hope than to be hopeless. (not saying you are)I used to live like there was no heaven or hades....I find peace in what I believe and if I'm  wrong well so be it, I will at least had peace in believintg and striving to do the best to others as I go down that long dark dusty road.  Not that y'all don't. I'm just saying the WWJD works for me.*
> 
> I'm more and more coming to the conclusion that there are those who put what is true above their feelings and what they would like to be true and there are those who don't. That seems to be a core difference.


*And that also works both ways and I know that you know it. You put your feelings above what you can and cannot prove either. If you can't prove it either way, then why not allow us the freedom to be wrong if we are? We at least deserve that much like anyone else. Tell me the difference in making fun or mocking christians than making fun of a gay person? 


Or making fun of people who used to believe we couldn't get to the moon, when the opposite occurred at the time. No one knew/thought for sure we could do it, but we did and it was a great victory.....it was unreality becoming reality, just like flying, or dna, or anything else that has seemed impossible in the past gazillion years that have proven could be accomplished. You have your yaysayers on one side and your naysayers on the other. Neither can prove to the other the 'truth', so why is it so much fun to make fun of folks who believe differently than you do?*

And I believe in Christ as much as I believe in dna, flying ojects, automobiles, cellphones.....just like people didn't believe or even dream it, those things did, it will all come to pass. Man has never ever created/discovered/built anything from nothing...everything has always been available. Everything was already created to brew and mix by scientists and inventors into something else. We had everything we needed to make things fly 10,000 yrs ago it just wasn't developed it, but the parts were here.


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## mtnwoman (May 20, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> I don't know about proofs but that's quite a theory you've got with the jews being blinded and all. So much for their free will. Either they get to burn or they get a free pass that nobody else gets.*After the rapture, the Jews will flee to petra and will hear the gospel. They will still have free will to choose, hopefully by that time, the proof (poof) will be in the pudding. Many churches including mine, have taken NT books to hide in petra for the Jews to read. We are planning on preaching the gospel already. Everything is set aside and ready to build the new temple in Israel, too. So we are mounting up and gettin' ready*
> 
> Here is what this thread boils down to.
> 
> ...


*What do you mean for an example? You are saying things in this post that I have said and then you are also saying or implying things I have never said to make the post work in your favor, or to make someone think that you got me on this one, because they assume what you're saying here is really all the things I have said or believe, which isn't true......so I'm not the only one confused, obviously...or mixing things up.*


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## atlashunter (May 20, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> I'm more and more coming to the conclusion that there are those who put what is true above their feelings and what they would like to be true and there are those who don't. That seems to be a core difference.





mtnwoman said:


> I'd rather live with hope than to be hopeless. (not saying you are)I used to live like there was no heaven or hades....I find peace in what I believe and if I'm wrong well so be it, I will at least had peace in believintg and striving to do the best to others as I go down that long dark dusty road. Not that y'all don't. I'm just saying the WWJD works for me.



I rest my case. And mtnwoman I know you will disagree but I don't buy for a moment that you need that crutch as badly as you think you do.




mtnwoman said:


> And that also works both ways and I know that you know it. You put your feelings above what you can and cannot prove either. If you can't prove it either way, then why not allow us the freedom to be wrong if we are? We at least deserve that much like anyone else. Tell me the difference in making fun or mocking christians than making fun of a gay person?



I don't deny anyone their freedom. Believe whatever you want. Just don't expect those beliefs to go unchallenged or given respect simply because they help you get through life.

Also, it's not a 50/50 proposition that you've got it right.




mtnwoman said:


> Or making fun of people who used to believe we couldn't get to the moon, when the opposite occurred at the time. No one knew/thought for sure we could do it, but we did and it was a great victory.....it was unreality becoming reality, just like flying, or dna, or anything else that has seemed impossible in the past gazillion years that have proven could be accomplished. You have your yaysayers on one side and your naysayers on the other. Neither can prove to the other the 'truth', so why is it so much fun to make fun of folks who believe differently than you do?
> 
> And I believe in Christ as much as I believe in dna, flying ojects, automobiles, cellphones.....just like people didn't believe or even dream it, those things did, it will all come to pass. Man has never ever created/discovered/built anything from nothing...everything has always been available. Everything was already created to brew and mix by scientists and inventors into something else. We had everything we needed to make things fly 10,000 yrs ago it just wasn't developed it, but the parts were here.



Except for the DNA bit you are talking about human achievements. Achievements reached not by way of belief but by exercising physical evidence and reasoned logic to pursue an end. The God claim is a belief of a different nature. It is either already true or it isn't and we can't change whatever that truth turns out to be. Since the true answer is already out there we must either verify or falsify the claim to be able to render a judgment. Because the claim is by its very nature unfalsifiable (you couldn't prove there was no God even if there really wasn't one) the burden of proof lies with those claiming a God. Theists of all stripes consistently and resoundingly fail in that regard.

I'll leave you with a couple quotes both from great minds.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" -Carl Sagan

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." -Christopher Hitchens


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## mtnwoman (May 21, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> I rest my case. And mtnwoman I know you will disagree but I don't buy for a moment that you need that crutch as badly as you think you do.*No I don't need a crutch any more. I used to use lots of crutches to deal with reality, by escaping reality....I was gonna die handling my own, heartbreak, losses, hardships.  All I ever needed was to be loved and Christ is my only true love, every other one, let me down or died on me, and I'm sure I let them down.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If I post here you expect evidence, and when you post I expect evidence, what's the difference?  You have no more proof than I do. I just want to answer what I think is not a "trick' question, to find out in the end it's just bait to belittle what I believe.....do you think that is just?


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## atlashunter (May 21, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> After the rapture, the Jews will flee to petra and will hear the gospel. They will still have free will to choose, hopefully by that time, the proof (poof) will be in the pudding. Many churches including mine, have taken NT books to hide in petra for the Jews to read. We are planning on preaching the gospel already. Everything is set aside and ready to build the new temple in Israel, too. So we are mounting up and gettin' ready



That doesn't address all the blinded jews who have already died over the last 2,000 years. Does the Jordanian government know about these plans to pollute one of their historic sites with all these books?




mtnwoman said:


> I never said that. I don't believe that. Do you agree you have a choice/free will to chose what you will do, right or wrong?



You don't believe that sin and the subsequent suffering is due to free will? Other Christians sure do because that is what they claim all the time.




mtnwoman said:


> Perhaps our free will be limited to a certain extent. We won't be able to nor will we want to go anything against God. When I say free will I'm saying I'll have free will to swim in the perfect water or eat perfect food, or I can sing all day or I can do all the desires of my heart...or maybe ride on a cloud....I dunno, but when I'm speaking of free will, I'm speaking of the same free will that you have when you decide whether to fishing or bow hunt a deer.



That isn't the intended use of the term when free will is used to explain the problem of evil and you know it.

Once again, you need to _think things through_ before you go trying to change definitions to get out of an obvious problem. If this is the definition of free will then that means you will be denied the freedom to disobey God in heaven. Either through some authoritarian means of denying you the exercise of your will or by altering your will, a frontal lobotomy perhaps? Well if that is what God wants why not just start with those conditions to begin with?




mtnwoman said:


> He's going to. Our heaven will be right here on a perfect earth.



Why not start at that point and avoid the evil and suffering altogether?




mtnwoman said:


> Well my debt has been paid, I don't have those 'deferred' payments to worry about at judgement.



Not an answer to the question.




mtnwoman said:


> So you can blame all your sins on God if you want to? but I have a scapegoat for my sins, Jesus. If a crack mom has a crack baby that's God's fault? Even though the bible has warned us from those things. You say God is too strict and have all these rules to abide by, we don't abide by the rules and we suffer for it, ain't like God didn't try to get us to mind Him....and that's God's fault? Man is responsible for crack, not God. So you too speaky with forked tongue....first you say God has too many hoops for us to jump thru, then turn around and say it's God fault because He allows temptation in the world.



You completely missed the point. Try again.




mtnwoman said:


> *What do you mean for an example? You are saying things in this post that I have said and then you are also saying or implying things I have never said to make the post work in your favor, or to make someone think that you got me on this one, because they assume what you're saying here is really all the things I have said or believe, which isn't true......so I'm not the only one confused, obviously...or mixing things up.*



Did you notice I wrote "theist answer" and not "mtnwoman answer"? Think there might be a reason for that?


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## mtnwoman (May 21, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> That doesn't address all the blinded jews who have already died over the last 2,000 years. Does the Jordanian government know about these plans to pollute one of their historic sites with all these books?*Yes they seize the books when they find them. Yes it does address all the jews....all the jews that were blinded at/since the time the gospel was offered to the gentiles.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 *Well yeah, I noticed that, maybe the reason is you're a nice considerate guy and try not to act like I'm so stupid, or you're wanting to be left out of the crowd that does do that?*

Plus I don't know. I don't exactly know where you are coming from.


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## atlashunter (May 21, 2012)

Thread topics about the problem of evil in the world and questions about why an all powerful and loving God stands by and allows such great suffering often bring answers like the example below.



atlashunter said:


> JB what does free will have to do with a child killed by disease or famine or natural disaster?






JB0704 said:


> Not much.  But it's existence indicates God is not as interventionist as some would like us to believe.  If God directs every action, then we are not free.  We are either free, or we are robots, I see very little middle ground available.  If we are free, then we have consequences of actions (disease and famine are often spread as a result of poor management of resources).  If we are robots, then God is killing folks with those things you mentioned.



I don't mean to be singling JB out here. This is just one of many citations of free will as being the reason God doesn't intervene on behalf of the suffering.

How does this get reconciled with the following?

1. Two thousand years of jews living and dying with the interference of the exercise of their free will by way of being blinded by God from seeing Christ as the messiah. Mtnwoman thinks they will all (including the dead) get an opportunity to see the error of their ways.

2. A heaven predominantly populated with the souls of the unborn who never had an opportunity to exercise free will.

3. A heaven populated by people who have been altered in some way as to be made so that they won't want to sin or alternatively want to sin but are unable to. Either way, no free will in this regard.


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## JB0704 (May 21, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> I don't mean to be singling JB out here. This is just one of many citations of free will as being the reason God doesn't intervene on behalf of the suffering.



It's all good.



atlashunter said:


> How does this get reconciled with the following?
> 
> 1. Two thousand years of jews living and dying with the interference of the exercise of their free will by way of being blinded by God from seeing Christ as the messiah. Mtnwoman thinks they will all (including the dead) get an opportunity to see the error of their ways.



A couple of things, first, if they were blinded by God, then they have no free will to choose.  Second, there are many, many different thoughts as to what the actual treatment of folks is or will be.  



atlashunter said:


> 2. A heaven predominantly populated with the souls of the unborn who never had an opportunity to exercise free will..



I see no conflict here.  The opposite thought would be these souls may not be elected, and are burning in he11 without ever having a chance to be elected.  



atlashunter said:


> 3. A heaven populated by people who have been altered in some way as to be made so that they won't want to sin or alternatively want to sin but are unable to. Either way, no free will in this regard.



But, aside from the unborn souls mentioned previously, all parties would be there by choice, the rest wouldn't know any different.  Let's face it, if you don't believe in God, any idea of an afterlife will seem ridiculous.   I get that.


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## Artfuldodger (May 21, 2012)

If God already knows who is going to Heaven & He11, why didn't he just create the people going to Heaven? 
This question was asked earlier. It got me thinking but I don't have an answer.


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## gemcgrew (May 21, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> If God already knows who is going to Heaven & He11, why didn't he just create the people going to Heaven?
> This question was asked earlier. It got me thinking but I don't have an answer.



Romans 9:19-24 addresses your complaint.


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## ambush80 (May 21, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> If God already knows who is going to Heaven & He11, why didn't he just create the people going to Heaven?
> This question was asked earlier. It got me thinking but I don't have an answer.



From my observations you won't find an answer that makes sense and if you ask a fellow believer about it they will probably tell you to "lay such questions at the foot of the cross" or something to that effect. That "thinking" business will get you all confused.


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## gemcgrew (May 21, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> From my observations you won't find an answer that makes sense and if you ask a fellow believer about it they will probably tell you to "lay such questions at the foot of the cross" or something to that effect. That "thinking" business will get you all confused.



It appears that a lot of folks want to believe in God, just not the God of the Bible. The one that kills people and rules his creation as he pleases.


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## ambush80 (May 21, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> It appears that a lot of folks want to believe in God, just not the God of the Bible. The one that kills people and rules his creation as he pleases.



I think you're absolutely right.


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## Artfuldodger (May 21, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Romans 9:19-24 addresses your complaint.



It isn't a complaint.


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## gemcgrew (May 21, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> It isn't a complaint.



I should have used "question" instead of "complaint".


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## Artfuldodger (May 21, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Romans 9:19-24 addresses your complaint.



Hath not the potter power over the clay?
As a believer of free will those verses are troubling.
Who are we to question God? 
Does that put an end to Bible study?


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## gemcgrew (May 21, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> From my observations you won't find an answer that makes sense and if you ask a fellow believer about it they will probably tell you to "lay such questions at the foot of the cross" or something to that effect. That "thinking" business will get you all confused.



Reminded me of my youth. My earliest memories are those of singing "Jesus loves me this I know". I was told that "God loves everybody". This all changed about the time I reached an "age of accountability" (WHAT?). Now, all of a sudden, I find out that there is much more to this than I was previously lead to believe.

Here are just some of the questions I raised at that time:

What is the age of accountability?
Why does Jesus expect more from me now?
Why did you even have me if you knew He11 was a possible end?
If I say that prayer and ask forgiveness, everything will be ok?
Are you sure everything was ok before?
What if I had died on my birthday?
If God owns the cattle on a thousand hills, why does he need my 10%? I'm trying to save for a motorcycle.

And believe me, I had a bunch of questions nobody could answer confidently.

What a bunch of religious nonsense.


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## gemcgrew (May 21, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Does that put an end to Bible study?



It didn't for me.


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## atlashunter (May 21, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> A couple of things, first, if they were blinded by God, then they have no free will to choose.  Second, there are many, many different thoughts as to what the actual treatment of folks is or will be.



There are so many problems with this. Here are just a few.

1. If free will is so important to God that he refuses to intervene on behalf of a starving child in Sudan why would he then interfere with the free will of a select group of people?

2. Does he blind all jews? How jewish do you have to be to qualify? What if your half jewish?

3. How do some jews convert to christianity if they are blinded?

4. If you're going to interfere with free will of some people why do it in such a way that separates them from you if you want them to be close to you? Aren't the jews supposed to be God's chosen people? Or is it just part of a manipulative plot to turn them back toward him at some point in the future?




JB0704 said:


> I see no conflict here.  The opposite thought would be these souls may not be elected, and are burning in he11 without ever having a chance to be elected.



You don't see a conflict between the idea of a god who presides over a heaven full of people that had absolutely nothing to do with being there and the same god caring so much about the free will of others that he can't be bothered to lift a finger for a child that is being molested or starving to death?




JB0704 said:


> But, aside from the unborn souls mentioned previously, all parties would be there by choice, the rest wouldn't know any different.  Let's face it, if you don't believe in God, any idea of an afterlife will seem ridiculous.   I get that.



The point is. If he is going to alter those who chose to be there so that they can't change their mind why not cut to the chase and just start creation with those people in an already altered state? He doesn't need to wait and see what choices they would make because he already knows, right? No need then for all the death and evil and suffering. Also no need for a human sacrifice to make right what you knew from the outset would go wrong. What would the good and moral choice be faced with those two options?


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## mtnwoman (May 21, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> There are so many problems with this. Here are just a few.
> 
> 1. If free will is so important to God that he refuses to intervene on behalf of a starving child in Sudan why would he then interfere with the free will of a select group of people? *God does intervene in behalf of a starving child in Sudan, Hecalls us to feed them and clothe them. Some of us do, some of us don't.  I can't go but I can support missionaries who do go.
> 
> ...


*We all have those questions and those things will stick in my craw, but I do have to admit that I get way more out of Christianity than just worrying about the questions.....like trying to figure out how to get food and clothes from here to there...that's what we should really be worrying about is helping others....God or no God.*

I know my goal and probably most other Christians goal, is to find the calling of God on their lives. Like teaching, preaching,feeding the hungry, going to visit and take care of the sick and elderly, my goal is not to figure out how God is going to 'change up' the Jews at the precise time. That's not what He calls us to do, is to figure Him out.  We are here to help and give service to each other and to love each other.

I've got a gazillion questions I could write out that need answers, while children are starving across the pond or even down the street.  I'll do what God wants me to do, and He's got the rest.


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## atlashunter (May 21, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> God does intervene in behalf of a starving child in Sudan, Hecalls us to feed them and clothe them. Some of us do, some of us don't. I can't go but I can support missionaries who do go.



Right and Allah is intervening when Hamas does charitable work in the Gaza strip.

I think Mark Twain nailed it.



> We hear much about His mercy and kindness and goodness - in words - the words of His Book and of His pulpit - and the meek multitude is content with this evidence, such as it is, seeking no further; but whoso searcheth after a concreted sample of it will in time acquire fatigue. There being no instances of it. For what are gilded as mercies are not in any recorded case more than mere common justices, and due - due without thanks or compliment. To rescue without personal risk a cripple from a burning house is not a mercy, it is a mere commonplace duty; anybody would do it that could. And not by proxy, either - delegating the work but confiscating the credit for it. If men neglected “God’s poor” and “God’s stricken and helpless ones” as He does, what would become of them? The answer is to be found in those dark lands where man follows His example and turns his indifferent back upon them: they get no help at all; they cry, and plead and pray in vain, they linger and suffer, and miserably die. If you will look at the matter rationally and without prejudice, the proper place to hunt for the facts of His mercy, is not where man does the mercies and He collects the praise, but in those regions where He has the field to Himself.






mtnwoman said:


> Perhaps if some of the old laws in OT were in force today, we might not have to worry about child molesters....but oh no....they aren't scared of getting 'it' cut off nor spending very much time in jail. And as far as a starving child, that is up to you and me. Do you feed them? God provides for me to provide for them.



You haven't answered the question. You believe in an all powerful God that stands by watching children be molested and chooses to do nothing to stop it. That's an evil being.




mtnwoman said:


> We all have those questions and those things will stick in my craw, but I do have to admit that I get way more out of Christianity than just worrying about the questions.....like trying to figure out how to get food and clothes from here to there...that's what we should really be worrying about is helping others....God or no God.



What would the good and moral choice be faced with those two options?


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## mtnwoman (May 22, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> You haven't answered the question. You believe in an all powerful God that stands by watching children be molested and chooses to do nothing to stop it. That's an evil being.




He also stands by and watches abortions.....have you ever watched one? I bet that feels really good with all your limbs being pulled apart.  Who's fault is it abortions are legal? How bought partial birth abortions, when the baby is full term and as soon as it pokes it's little head out, before it can take a breath, in go the sutures.  How in the heck can that be ok with people who voted for abortions to be legal? Most people don't even know what partial birth abortion is. 

He stands by and watches drunk drivers kill innocent children die in car crashes......who voted in alchohol?

He watches people die of cancer everyday from smoking cigartettes that started smoking as kids.......who votes for cigs to be legal?

He also watches people watch xxxxxxxxxxxx rated movies that are not illegal, and the pervs can't find ANY woman to do those things for free, so he finds a child he can force to? Please let's give them some ideas, why won't we?

Guns are legal and I'm for that, but kids get guns and kill other kids in school, is that God's fault, or could a parent of two step up to the plate? Who voted for the right to bear arms.

We want to blame a God who has told us not to do all these things and we vote them in as legal and then wonder what the heck happened.

Dahmer had to be blasted out of his goard to kill and mutilate people....he could buy alcohol right on the corner....who made that legal?

Some people think it's ok for people to do anything they please and some take it too far, there are no boundaries for many many people.

And as far as child molesters go, they were born that way....that should justify it sometime in the future when the age of consent drops when same sex marriage sets in. So then if a molester is careful and takes a 12 yo and 12 is the age of consent, then he's scot free.....alright then.

It's nothing we do is it? It's all God's fault.

So who do you blame it all on atlas since you don't believe in God, you, your family, your friends? who? people who vote? Who?


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## mtnwoman (May 22, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> What would the good and moral choice be faced with those two options?



And what difference would that make to ya? You don't believe in God, have you stopped child molestation? 

So what do you think my moral choice should be, and why? And what would it change in the world, and what would it do for the world? How would that help anyone? How would that benefit me and how would that benefit you and for how long?

Perhaps instead of talking morals to me you should run on down to the local prison and have a chat about morals with a child molester before the rest of the men get to him....whatcha think? Course I'm easier to


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## atlashunter (May 22, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> He also stands by and watches abortions.....have you ever watched one? I bet that feels really good with all your limbs being pulled apart.  Who's fault is it abortions are legal? How bought partial birth abortions, when the baby is full term and as soon as it pokes it's little head out, before it can take a breath, in go the sutures.  How in the heck can that be ok with people who voted for abortions to be legal? Most people don't even know what partial birth abortion is.
> 
> He stands by and watches drunk drivers kill innocent children die in car crashes......who voted in alchohol?
> 
> ...



The issue isn't who commits the crime. Yes the perpetrator is responsible for their actions. You completely miss the point, intentionally I'm starting to think.

Suppose a child was being molested by their teacher and the principal walked in on it. Suppose they had the power to stop this from happening at absolutely no risk to themselves. Suppose they knew this was going to happen before it did and could have intervened so as to protect the child but opted not to. Suppose further that upon walking in and seeing what the child is going through they stand there and watch while the entire event takes place. They do nothing even though they could. Are you _really_ going to tell me that no judgments about the morality of this individual can be made because it was the teacher and not them that did the act? Seriously?


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## atlashunter (May 22, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> And what difference would that make to ya? You don't believe in God, have you stopped child molestation?
> 
> So what do you think my moral choice should be, and why? And what would it change in the world, and what would it do for the world? How would that help anyone? How would that benefit me and how would that benefit you and for how long?



What difference would it make for God to skip all the evil in the world and get straight to the end result he wants? How would that help anyone?  




mtnwoman said:


> Perhaps instead of talking morals to me you should run on down to the local prison and have a chat about morals with a child molester before the rest of the men get to him....whatcha think? Course I'm easier to



I think you're right on all counts. It's pretty much a lost cause positing moral questions with someone that can't figure out what good it would do to anyone to eliminate evil from the world.


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## mtnwoman (May 22, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> What difference would it make for God to skip all the evil in the world and get straight to the end result he wants? How would that help anyone?*Where did I say skip all that?*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



WOW! That's it?

I wrote all that just for you to 

That really hurts my feelings but that's ok, I know I shouldn't be in here anyways. I thought we were going along pretty well....I don't know what made me think that you wouldn't make fun of everything I said and still not answer my question. oh well....I'm just surprised....I shouldn't be.....

Me not believing in God is not gonna get rid of all the evil in the world....how's it workin' for you?


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## mtnwoman (May 22, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> The issue isn't who commits the crime. Yes the perpetrator is responsible for their actions. You completely miss the point, intentionally I'm starting to think.  *Well obviously I do miss your point, but I don't appreciate you saying intentionally. Obviously by answering your questions and you come back and make fun of my answers do you really think i'd do it on purpose.*
> 
> Suppose a child was being molested by their teacher and the principal walked in on it. Suppose they had the power to stop this from happening at absolutely no risk to themselves. Suppose they knew this was going to happen before it did and could have intervened so as to protect the child but opted not to. Suppose further that upon walking in and seeing what the child is going through they stand there and watch while the entire event takes place. They do nothing even though they could. Are you _really_ going to tell me that no judgments about the morality of this individual can be made because it was the teacher and not them that did the act? Seriously?


*Where in the world did you get I'd say that. You're the one blaming it on God instead of the teacher. Didn't a man just do that to a coach in Pa or somewhere like that? God sent someone to help the boys and the man disobeyed and did nothing....God'
s fault again.....was porn involved....you betcha.*

You want God to intervene on that but not on abortions? or unwanted pregnancies? or how about drinking and driving and killing innocent children? Wasn't it us that made alcohol available or abortions that kill children everyday.

You want God to stop child molesters while you vote FOR abortions or FOR alcohol  etc etc. I'm not saying you personally. But what do you expect?

You want God to intevene on things that you don't like but the things that you do like you want Him and His people to stay out of it.

If it was left up to me, every single child molester would be singing soprano, I bet that would stop a few, but the same people that are ok with abortions are against the death penalty.  Perhaps some of God's harsh laws might fit in here....but oh heaven forbid that.

You figure it out.

I gave you my answer to the best of my ability. 

You don't believe in God, so once again I ask you who's fault do you think it is for child molestation?


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## atlashunter (May 22, 2012)

I say this:

"The issue isn't who commits the crime. Yes the perpetrator is responsible for their actions."

And you respond with this.



mtnwoman said:


> *You're the one blaming it on God instead of the teacher.*



Yet you wonder why I say intentionally.

Once again you fail to address what should now have been made crystal clear with the analogy. Of course you would pass judgment on someone who refused to rescue a child in that situation. Yet you worship a being that does that very thing all around the world, every day.

You've been led to logic but nobody can make you think. That's up to you.


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## mtnwoman (May 22, 2012)

Ok so you're not blaming it on God.....is that the right answer?

I too believe it is the teachers fault. I also believe that the principal is at fault(morally) that saw the teacher and didn't stop the teacher, since the principal is like the head cop at the school. 

Didn't that just happen with the sandusky's actions....several people saw him doing it and did nothing? And yet I don't see any kind of an uprising about him, it will just go away, he's a man, a sports man to boot and so that will be that. The war in this country is not man against man, it is man against women and children, the defenseless. Who should take care of that?

All I'm saying is whether there is a God that sent the head coach and the other coach to intervene, or there isn't a God and by circumstance they happened upon the situation, they didn't do anything about it.  So whether I believe in God or not doesn't have anything to do with what people with free will are going to do. All WE can do, God or no God, is vote in laws to stop the child preditors instead of letting them out of jail. Us, me and you, everyone on here, the entire USA the entire world as a group have to do something to stop it.  If you think it's evil then we should vote in punishment accordingly.  

I don't know why God let's that happen, I don't like it, but if He was gonna control that then He'd have to control war and everything else, not just that one thing. I take as much blame for voting incorrectly as anyone else.

You think God should intervene on the behalf of the child(at least I think you meant that)...Lord only knows I wish He would. I wish He would intervene on many things, like abortions, but He was outvoted on that, too.
But me wishing He would and Him doing it or not, and me  believing in Him or not as my spiritual saviour, is not going to change moral decay.


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