# Please Share Your Holy Ghost Experience



## SemperFiDawg (Nov 21, 2013)

I was asked recently by a non- believer "What is your rock solid proof of Gods existence."  I told him I had been filled with the Holy Ghost when I was 14 and that experience had stamped on my soul that Jesus was Lord and Savior.

There is not a day that goes by these days that I don't think back on that experience and try to recall it more vividly, but it's hard for me to put into words.  Words seem to fail to do justice to the experience.  

I thought I would try to recount the story here in as much detail as possible in hopes that others would do the same.  I'm hoping that by hearing others accounts that they may do a better job of describing it than me and maybe I can recall it better.  If I could offer an analogy.  It's as if I once tasted something so delicious that I knew immediately it was pure ecstasy, but just as with taste,the flavor quickly dissipated and I only am left with the indelible memory.

My story

I was 14 and was attending a LDS church because my new stepfather was Mormon and wanted us all to join.  After months of teaching by the missionaries I guess I was deemed ready and I was willing.  I recall very little of their teaching, but I do recall the sermon that took place just prior to my baptism.  It was on how by Christ's death are reconciled to God.   After the sermon I was to go into the bathroom and change into the clothes I was to be Baptized in.  As I was in my underwear changing in that bathroom it happened.  I was filled/overcome with this powerful, overwhelming presence and it was like I received an immediate understanding that Christ is Lord and Savior.  It was a testimony, but of immense power.  I hesitate to say it was like a vision because it was soooooo real.  It was if I had been blind my entire life and had instantly received my sight or like having the curtain go up on heaven and for the first time I could see and understand the enormity and grandeur of it all.  It was blinding and vivid at the same time.  

I'm not sure how long it lasted.  Only a few moments I suppose.   I don't recall if I realized I needed to return to consciousness/my body to finish getting dressed or that the vision just faded, but it did end and I went on and was baptized.  Some things happened in my life and it was 20 years or more until I actually understood that I had been filled with the Holy Spirit that day.  

Looking back there are a few things I do know about the experience.  First and foremost, my soul was sealed that day.  It was stamped with the blood Christ as my Lord and Savior forever as I received a testimony directly from the Holy Ghost.  It's something I can never deny.  Secondly, just as the scales fell off my eyes and I could see Heaven, I was there.  At least my spirit was there.  It wasn't in my body, but when I came back the scales went back on.  I'm left with the knowledge that I saw something I can't remember.  The curtain came back down for the most part.  I say for the most part, because many times when I'm reading the Bible something may trigger a memory and it seems whereas before when I read the Bible it was jibberish, now much just seems intuitive.  

It wasn't until years later that I even began to understand what happened to me that day.  We left the Mormon Church shortly after, and as ashamed as I am to say it, I spent over 20 years living exactly as I wanted to.   I eventually  quit rebelling and rededicated my life to Christ.
It was only after this and trying out many different churches, reading, re reading, and re re reading the Bible, reading and listening to others who have written on the subject and many others that I even began to grasp the significance of that day.  I'm sure I still don't grasp it fully.

There's still a lot I don't understand like why was my experience like that and others aren't.  What is the significance of that and will I ever know while I'm still here on earth?  Do others have similar experiences or is each individual to the person with God providing each with exactly what he needs.  If so, why did I need " that" experience.  

All I'm left with is:  IT'S A WONDERFUL WONDER!!!!!

I would love to hear any of your experiences.


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## clayservant (Nov 21, 2013)

Well I got saved at 15 and at the age of 16 God started to tell me to witness to people and be an evangelist but I was TIMID  and could not do it, I saw Acts 1:8

King James Version (KJV)

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

so I started seeking the Holy Ghost, one night I had hands layed on me to be filled with the Spirit, nothing happend , when I went home and started to pray The Holy Ghost came on me and I prayed in tongues for what seemed to be hours. and the next day I had a boldness and started to witness to people on the street.


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## 1222DANO (Nov 21, 2013)

i was saved as a little boy, and he soon showed me the reason of existence is to think you can have a better life if you want it. to believe in something better.. not to just get by and live the same way and not ever get better but continue to get worse. 

wanted to add to it,,

then he offers true healing from within and the experience of a lighter burden and a view of the bigger picture.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 21, 2013)

I am so at home with you guys testimonies. Man, I can identify with you like you were and you are, all a part of my extra real family in Christ.

I somehow have the idea that all your testimonies are God calling to you, somehow preparing you eventually to Christ in you, but also to some kind of ministry in the body.

My "Hello Jesus how are things around here?" came when I attended a adult bible study. I was 33 or so. I attended a seminar which was once a week for aprox half a yr or six months.

 I could study two subjects. I chose Moses and the Gospel of Matthew. To make a long story short, those two studies tag teamed on me and with the help of my teachers and classmates--I was able to enjoy Jesus coming into my life  not only  as my Lord, but also as Lord of our Kingdom.... AND that made all the difference for me. 

You see I was looking and knocking for a "place". I say "place" because I did not know what I was looking for, but knew it only as a "place", but knew it was real and there whatever it was. I knew it because I knew others knew of "it"... because they lived and acted from there. Their motivations were of it. They acted, walked in it and talked, and wrote from it. They ministered from it--and with all kinds of ministries. They fed the poor and nursed the sick from it. They shared wisdom from it. That place was the Kingdom! And WOW when I found it, I found life itself. ( Having lived my life and not having known it would have been not living at all, it was that important to me and still is today!)

 Now I can recall when I was a teen and how once I had felt an "out of this world experience" as if I was walking two inches off the ground. I was  behind the church where we often did the lawns, cemetary and yard work. And now perhaps 24 or so yrs later a real in this world feeling of my feet landing on solid ground and a holy ground at that!!!!!!!! WoW! 

I can't explain the feeling I had exactly. I was perhaps like a horse released to a large pasture after a long time in a pen. Or, I was at the place that the song calls to " come home" and I knew what the person who wrote the song was writing about. I was to it. I was there!  Or perhaps  said in a carnal way, "My lion was sleeping with His lambs and His lambs were not afraid ."


I too got bold , after all  this was were the saints of all times layed their heads, and now I had my pillow! I was IN!!!!!!!!!!!!    Later others ( strangers) confirmed that my experience was real, but not only real in itself but that also I was called to some sort of ministry!... which was puzzling initially...and in some ways still is.

When I found the Kingdom, when Jesus let me in, my whole world changed and the worlds changed. All my senses were challenged to act on a handsome new and fresh reality, a new life in every way. And my new found home is still as lively and fresh today.Today my boldness is tempered with some experiences-- all good-- Like the oppertunity to share with brothers and friend here and now!  Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!


---------------

 Matt. 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 21, 2013)

I don't really have anything that amazing although I have felt the presence of the Holy Spirit at various times filling me, another person, or the room.
Ya'lls  experiences are interesting in how they relate to Baptism being , before, after, or during.


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## formula1 (Nov 21, 2013)

*Re:*

My first experience with the Holy Spirit was as a young boy of 7 before Christ found me.  My Mom hired a caretaker so she could work.  Of course, she happened to be a dear Holiness woman.  And she would sing those spiritual songs and really she would just lose herself in the Spirit (tongues and all).  I did not know what it was but it most definately in hindsight deeply influenced my life.

My second experience in 1973 was in and Billy Graham crusade where I gave my life to Jesus and went forward to the alter call.  I remember the moment I made it to the field in Atlanta Fulton County stadium.  That same Spirit that my caretaker introduced me to was heavy, very heavy on that field.  I will never forget it.

Not much happened after that for awhile.  I continued in my Mother's church (Southern Baptist) and followed God in baptism, then joined the choir and youth group.  I began to see some (not all) leaders began to model a very legalistic viewpoint and make every effort to force it on the youth.  This caused me to rebel and eventually lead me away from the church. I became a heavy drinker as a result, following my Dad and brother at the ripe old age of 16. And I withdrew from normal life, associating with only the bottle.  Did not do the things that normal kids, few friends, no girls (wasn't interested), and I drank alone for the most part. My love was a bottle, truly.

One day in college after visiting a church with a friend, I came home to my dorm room and began my usual night of more drinking.  But this time it was very different as something (the Holy Spirit) began calling to me from the inside.  It was a moment of decision for me.  I sensed that same Spirit I experienced earlier telling me this: 'This is your time of decision, you can let this alcohol destroy you like your Dad, or you can turn it over to Me!'  I suppose I had a choice, but I didn't really feel like I had! It was like a lighted path that showed me my way out of my loneliness, emptyness, and addiction. I prayed and spoke to God and told Him I wanted to give my life back to Him.

To my shock and surprise, He not only healed me on that night, but He sealed me with the Holy Spirit as this Southern Baptist young man began to speak in tongues as the Spirit moved him.  I was so shocked that I went to my pastor who confirmed my experience as he had quietly had the same experience some years before, but few people knew it. This experience totally transformed my life at the ripe old age of 22.  Beginning that day June 9, 1982, I was delivered from alcoholism by the Holy Spirit.  Praise God!

I love these experiences I've been reading and I hope we will all hear even more from everyone.  God Bless!


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## gordon 2 (Nov 21, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't really have anything that amazing although I have felt the presence of the Holy Spirit at various times filling me, another person, or the room.
> Ya'lls  experiences are interesting in how they relate to Baptism being , before, after, or during.



Yea! it is.


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## 1222DANO (Nov 21, 2013)

i'll tell ya'll like gordon 2 i feel at home, but we don't know how close to the devil we walk... i got a bad tongue that lets out evil, i'm working on it...any sin is like alcohol it can and will consume you... ever noticed the attitude we use comes right back to you?... its time us christian's really step up and put the devil back where it belongs.. the bible says in the book of James Faith without good works is dead.. pray to jesus cause he offers Love and Forgiveness something gordon 2 should be familiar with in the book of matthew jesus tells us he knows what we need pray the lords prayer.. if you go before God do it correctly like the bible says olive oil stands for the days spent in the olive grove don't let mans on point of religion take it away we know mans evil... man is sin..if you ask of God for worldly things he's gonna give it to you,or take it away just depending on his feelings towards you and what he sees fit. guarantee you might not like where it ends up.. please lets fix this world with love and kindness.. just walk away one day and go do all the good in your heart, whatever he ask and i promise you'll not be sorry.. i did yesterday my son was full of hate and bad towards us really bad attitude.. i walked away and done what he asked and my son was singing in the shower how, i love momma, i love daddy, i love nanna, i love papa... the love of jesus touched my soul.. love you and everyone, pray for my ignorance and pray to keep the devil from my home..


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## BT Charlie (Nov 21, 2013)

I was older, married, and began a relationship with God marked not by doubt as much at misplaced rage over illness afflicting our first born son.  Within my own affliction, I seethed in much the same way doubters and atheists question and gnaw on pages around here.  I can feel their hurt even as they obviously don't.

In retrospect, my rage led to a kind of descent into complete misery.  Finally, unable to get any relief or resolution, I purposed and took steps to end my life.  At the end of my self, out on a lonely road where I'd walked, face down in the dirt ... a light flickered on in me and intervened.  In my flawed weakness, Christ's perfect mercy found me and began to engulf me.

It took me off that road back to my wife, who decades later frowns at me as I type this stuff on an iPad. It took me into church, where I met a young pastor who loved me and rassled me into the kingdom.  I confessed Christ with my tongue and later publicly confessed Christ as my Lord and Savior.  It was at a Promise Keeper event where I testify this evening to my belief that I was in the awesome presence of the Holy Ghost.

I was with the pastor and a cowboy friend of mine.  The speakers were wives praying for men to stand strong in spiritual warfare.  One speaker was explaining how keenly she experienced and interceded in husband's spiritual battles, when I was locked up.  (I enjoyed reading everyone's excellent efforts at describing their experiences.) All of a sudden, I was impressed with a brief personal message, or knowledge or awareness, wahtever.  I can't to this day figure out how to describe how this was received...heard by sound, read by sight,  thoughts imparted 
directly to my consciousness or what. But it happened very rapidly and completely filled me and my senses with the holy loving embrace and mercy of Christ.  So being the big stoic Montana dude I perceived myself to be, I tipped right over into the real cowboy buddy of mine.  Pow.  I was awake but unable to say much or to regain my balance.

Mercifully, it was if the Holy Spirit had showed me a distinct vision or movie clip almost where dozens of seemingly unrelated events in my rebellious descent were known to and managed by the Lord to bring me to this very point face to face with at least the holiness of our One True God.  "You see, I have always loved you." Overwhelming joy and whooshing elimination of guilt and condemnation.

It was so brief, yet remains with me still.  Others who've given their lives to Christ can excite the Spirit in me and I can again relive this holy and joyous -- hilarious -- experience.  I also believe that this same Holy Spirit leads me today.  My helper, my encouraged....

Imagine my horror when I learned here that men teach that this stuff stopped happening in 70 AD or so. Don't know what to make of it all but that is my testimony.  Blessings.


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## SemperFiDawg (Nov 22, 2013)

Grateful for those who posted.  I'm a bit taken aback that there are not more posts.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 22, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Grateful for those who posted.  I'm a bit taken aback that there are not more posts.



Don't be.  Some people need alot of personal space. Don't mean they are not good folk. We are all from somewhere.

 For example, the people who keep the church roof from leaking all have their stories and gifts. Many are not about even a hit of what might be considered boasting. Many could come up here and say on their seeing but instead they "do" in the humility and hide their prayers in lines of debit/credit accounting--- sometimes with a little extra...can I say, "arm twisting"...


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## gordon 2 (Nov 22, 2013)

*What does this mean?*

Can I point out that reading and absorbing this is in a real way a Holy Ghost experience right now.

------------------------------------------------------
James 3:18

New American Standard Bible (NASB)


18 And the [a]seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace *by those who make peace.

-----------------------------------*


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## formula1 (Nov 22, 2013)

*re:*

You may sir!

The word of God is so full of Holy Ghost experiences.  You will never run out of them.


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## BT Charlie (Nov 22, 2013)

Gordo, F1 -- blessings.  Had a long day today, yet fruit of this thread blessed me tonight.

In addition, our son is home from school. We spoke of this thread.  It is cool to say his Holy Ghost experience is similar in description as testimony here.  

I am pondering whether doctrines of man impede the fullness of the Lord? 

Gifts and the Spirit abide where the cessation memo did not 
circulate.... And thus they must also abide where the memo did circulate ...

But among those who read the memo....gifts and the Spirit 
are neither seen nor evidenced, or what?


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## hummerpoo (Nov 22, 2013)

SFD...every sentence of your "evidence" would have to be changed to make it mine, but I could still be accused of plagiarism.


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## swampstalker24 (Nov 23, 2013)

I was about 12.  It happened during a pretty normal sunday night service at a southern baptist church.  Preacher went on and on about how all the unsaved and non believers were bound for the lake of fire, destined to burn for the rest of eternity.  Although I had heard this many times before, this time was different and   I just knew he was preaching to me.   I began to shake and sweat rolled off my head. I couldn't breath and felt like I had a ton of bricks laying on my chest.  So, I did what I knew I had to do and stood up and walked down the isle and put my hand in the preachers hand and began to cry.  He said "no need to cry son, you're in god's hand now".   I was baptized the next sunday.   Looking back upon that experience now that the veil has been lifted from my eyes, I know what occurred was not some miraculous event, or the holy spirit "filling" me, but simply a scared little boy having a panic attack.  If you tell a child enough times that he will burn for eternity if he doesn't conform to certain standards, set forth by an ancient book of fiction, then at some point he will start to believe it and do what ever it takes to avoid that fate.  It's just scare tactics, nothing more.


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## gemcgrew (Nov 23, 2013)

swampstalker24 said:


> I was about 12.  It happened during a pretty normal sunday night service at a southern baptist church.  Preacher went on and on about how all the unsaved and non believers were bound for the lake of fire, destined to burn for the rest of eternity.  Although I had heard this many times before, this time was different and   I just knew he was preaching to me.   I began to shake and sweat rolled off my head. I couldn't breath and felt like I had a ton of bricks laying on my chest.  So, I did what I knew I had to do and stood up and walked down the isle and put my hand in the preachers hand and began to cry.  He said "no need to cry son, you're in god's hand now".   I was baptized the next sunday.   Looking back upon that experience now that the veil has been lifted from my eyes, I know what occurred was not some miraculous event, or the holy spirit "filling" me, but simply a scared little boy having a panic attack.  If you tell a child enough times that he will burn for eternity if he doesn't conform to certain standards, set forth by an ancient book of fiction, then at some point he will start to believe it and do what ever it takes to avoid that fate.  It's just scare tactics, nothing more.


While I appreciate your affirmation of Scripture, I am curious as to what motivated you to contribute. Is it curiosity, a cry for attention, or perhaps just an overwhelming feeling of emptiness?


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## swampstalker24 (Nov 23, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> While I appreciate your affirmation of Scripture, I am curious as to what motivated you to contribute. Is it curiosity, a cry for attention, or perhaps just an overwhelming feeling of emptiness?



The OP asked for our holy ghost experiences, did he not?  That was mine.


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## gemcgrew (Nov 23, 2013)

swampstalker24 said:


> The OP asked for our holy ghost experiences, did he not?  That was mine.


No, that was your admitted lack of one. Do you now require a group hug, in order to feel relevant?


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## swampstalker24 (Nov 23, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> No, that was your admitted lack of one. Do you now require a group hug, in order to feel relevant?



You're funny


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## gemcgrew (Nov 23, 2013)

swampstalker24 said:


> You're funny


Am I? Do all free thinkers embarrass themselves in this way, or only the superior ones?


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## BT Charlie (Nov 23, 2013)

I am crushed as apostacy accelerates. The enemy's boast. Will our prayers be heard and this lost tide turn?


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## SemperFiDawg (Nov 23, 2013)

swampstalker24 said:


> I was about 12.  It happened during a pretty normal sunday night service at a southern baptist church.  Preacher went on and on about how all the unsaved and non believers were bound for the lake of fire, destined to burn for the rest of eternity.  Although I had heard this many times before, this time was different and   I just knew he was preaching to me.   I began to shake and sweat rolled off my head. I couldn't breath and felt like I had a ton of bricks laying on my chest.  So, I did what I knew I had to do and stood up and walked down the isle and put my hand in the preachers hand and began to cry.  He said "no need to cry son, you're in god's hand now".   I was baptized the next sunday.   Looking back upon that experience now that the veil has been lifted from my eyes, I know what occurred was not some miraculous event, or the holy spirit "filling" me, but simply a scared little boy having a panic attack.  If you tell a child enough times that he will burn for eternity if he doesn't conform to certain standards, set forth by an ancient book of fiction, then at some point he will start to believe it and do what ever it takes to avoid that fate.  It's just scare tactics, nothing more.



By your own admission what you experienced was not a Holy Ghost experience, but a panic attack.  I suppose you are attempting to imply everyone else's are also, however if you read the others I think the differences will become obvious.


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## Israel (Nov 23, 2013)

yeah, no panic attack here. Could be the - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - of my own making was sufficient experience to be grateful for a reprieve. Maybe I've never had the proper fear of - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -, then again maybe Jesus himself was found speaking a better word.

It's all fun and games till someone puts their eye out. 
I don't feel bad for those who don't know how utterly hopeless a sensation can choke a man down to his core, till his guts rattle like dried pits in a hollow drum, for I am not at all sure one is the better for knowing it. But, having been there, I can't deny it, nor do anything except heartily recommend against it.

If the fear of - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - is all that's ever gotten a hold of one it may be sufficient, God knows, but if the withdrawal of every iota of reason, sense, and goodness suddenly vanishes...so that it cannot even be recalled, contemplated, or even dimly brought to mind...be sure of one who will answer in the land of the living.
Fear losing him. Fear him.
Goodness absent is a hard taste to get past, don't be surprised to not know in pushing him away,  you are saying "I can drink his cup, without his help...I can be a man who stands before God."


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## BT Charlie (Nov 23, 2013)

Israel said:


> I am thinking that for three days brothers who truly loved the Lord (as best they knew) walked with him, ate with him...watched him daily...circulated a memo back and forth between themselves behind locked doors in fear. It was a "great run"...but...
> 
> I will not presume to know the fullness of what was accomplished in these men to make them brothers, know they were brothers, or that even their shared woe was working in them toward something...as they abode together, that would cause them to see together, what
> .each heart sincerely longed for, but could not even express for its unphrase-able ineffability.
> ...



I will think of you in communion tomorrow.  Blessings.


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## clayservant (Nov 23, 2013)

I knew it would not take long for the FOOLS to get on this thread.

Psalm 53:1
King James Version (KJV)

53 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.


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## Israel (Nov 24, 2013)

To be sensate, is to be sensate toward someone. Were anger toward God anything but a basis for mercy to be shown, I surely would not be here, and I might hazard few of us would be.

Even when the tree falls upon me alone in the woods, and fear, anger and frustrations abound, my consciousness tells me, it's ridiculous to be angry at the tree, it's folly to regret having taken a trek through the arbor, its silly to think I could be anywhere else but pinned at the moment. These are vanities. And I lie when I say "I am just angry at the situation."

In every circumstance of denial or resistance, it is always ultimately directed at a person. When I say "I don't like the way things are"...really, am I not just saying "I don't like the arranger of all circumstance?"

In this walk we are already told...before hand...of the many circumstances we will not like...but to beware, lest we take offense?

Why does a fools say anything "in his heart"...except to the one with whom he is so angry, the one who knows all, revealed in our very need to say anything to ourselves...that the hearer of all, might respond...in due time? 
There's no disruption in what can no longer be interrupted.
We have one another...to keep.


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## swampstalker24 (Nov 24, 2013)

clayservant said:


> I knew it would not take long for the FOOLS to get on this thread.
> 
> Psalm 53:1
> King James Version (KJV)
> ...



Wouldn't a true christian take this opportunity to maybe save a lost soul, rather than resort to name calling?



> Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every opportunity. 6Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone


-Col. 4:5-6(NIV)


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## gemcgrew (Nov 24, 2013)

swampstalker24 said:


> Wouldn't a true christian take this opportunity to maybe save a lost soul, rather than resort to name calling?


A true Christian would recognize you for what you are.

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do." (John 8:44)

"But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption" (2 Peter 2:12)

Now, prove me wrong. Repent and be baptized.


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## clayservant (Nov 24, 2013)

swampstalker24 said:


> Wouldn't a true christian take this opportunity to maybe save a lost soul, rather than resort to name calling?
> 
> 
> It is the truth, and also............
> ...


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## hobbs27 (Nov 27, 2013)

swampstalker24 said:


> Wouldn't a true christian take this opportunity to maybe save a lost soul, rather than resort to name calling?
> 
> 
> -Col. 4:5-6(NIV)



Salvation is of the Lord, we cant save you. The experience you had as a young man sounds more like a missed opportunity than a panic attack. It also sounds like the preacher was at fault in misleading you and telling you, you were saved. He had no part in it, his job was to deliver a message that God had placed on his heart, not tell people that they were saved.
 God has called on you before. I believe you will someday give in to this calling.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 27, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Salvation is of the Lord, we cant save you. The experience you had as a young man sounds more like a missed opportunity than a panic attack. It also sounds like the preacher was at fault in misleading you and telling you, you were saved. He had no part in it, his job was to deliver a message that God had placed on his heart, not tell people that they were saved.
> God has called on you before. I believe you will someday give in to this calling.



How does the new Christian develop his assurance if his own preacher can't suggest he might be saved? What do most preacheers tell people after they baptised them. I do realize the preacher isn't a part of someone's salvation.
It would be reassuring to hear someone else tell new Christians they could possibly be saved.


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## hobbs27 (Nov 27, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> How does the new Christian develop his assurance if his own preacher can't suggest he might be saved? What do most preacheers tell people after they baptised them. I do realize the preacher isn't a part of someone's salvation.
> It would be reassuring to hear someone else tell new Christians they could possibly be saved.



 How can a preacher be so sure of someone elses salvation, that they can suggest that that person has been saved, without taking a chance of comforting a lost soul all the way to he11?

 I dont know what most preachers say after they have baptised someone. My personal experience is after I was baptised the last time I was charged with what the church expected of me as a member.

 The reassurrance can only come from God, usually in the form of the Holy Spirit.... My personal relationship with my Lord is one of me and Him, and I dont need anyone to tell me I have or do not have salvation. I know!


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 27, 2013)

He Convinces men that Jesus is the Son of God and can be their saviour. (John 4:13-14..... by this alone, every born again believer has had a Holy Ghost/Spirit experience)
 He Shows men that the power of satan is broken by Jesus in His death on the cross. ( John 16:11)
 He Regenerates the sinner (John 3:5)
 He Teaches and leads into all truth. (1 John 2:27, John 16:13 )
 He Empowers to witness. (Acts 1:8)
 He Fills our mouths with His words in our time of need. (Luke 12:12)
 He Gives us Direction. (Romans 8:14)
 He Helps us choose not to sin or to give in to the flesh and all its lusts. ( Gal 5:16)
 He Seals us and gives us assurance of God's ownership of our lives. (Eph 1:13-14)
 He Remains in us forever. (1 John 3:9)
 He Administers Gifts to the church. ( 1 Cor 12:7)
 He Draws unbelievers to Jesus's saving grace.

That's my Holy Ghost experience. I've felt his presence.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 27, 2013)

I liked this little tidbit:

Moody - Need Filled by the Spirit Because I Leak

D L Moody was once asked why he urged Christians to be filled constantly with the Holy Spirit. “Well,” he said, “I need a continual infilling because I leak!” He pointed to a water tank which had sprung a leak. “I’m like that!” he said. It’s a fact that living in this sinful world we do need to be replenished by the Spirit. A friend of mine, an evangelist, was asked if he believed in the “second blessing”. “Of course I do,” he replied, “and in the 3rd, 4th, 5th blessing, and so on.”


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## hawglips (Nov 27, 2013)

I have been blessed to have many experiences.


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## Israel (Nov 28, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> How can a preacher be so sure of someone elses salvation, that they can suggest that that person has been saved, without taking a chance of comforting a lost soul all the way to he11?
> 
> I dont know what most preachers say after they have baptised someone. My personal experience is after I was baptised the last time I was charged with what the church expected of me as a member.
> 
> The reassurrance can only come from God, usually in the form of the Holy Spirit.... My personal relationship with my Lord is one of me and Him, and I dont need anyone to tell me I have or do not have salvation. I know!



Yes.

How easily we may be inclined in our efforts to "help" to instead, turn a soul from Christ.
It is a hard word.
The conflicts of soul that follow in the Lord's life must be given free place to be worked out so that the Lord himself may be shown to be the comforter and encouragement to each that would be his disciple.
Only the Lord confirms his work.
It's a strange progression in this world, totally opposed to all other experiences.


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## BT Charlie (Nov 28, 2013)

Israel said:


> Yes.
> 
> How easily we may be inclined in our efforts to "help" to instead, turn a soul from Christ.
> It is a hard word.
> ...







I agree with this, but immediately struggle in application.  

Post 31 above, for example.  A writer who calls the Bible fiction plays a common card in response to criticism, saying "true" believers would refrain from criticism to try to win his lost soul.  I found it tough to take that seriously, from an apparently hostile denier of the Word as fiction.  Out of one side of his mouth he says the Bible is fiction; out of the other he quotes scripture to push back against believers.  

Soul trouble and struggle befall hostile deniers, too.  How do we make room for the sinner's heart to ricochet to the sinner's hoped benefit, contend for our faith,
 and avoid the third rail of extinguishing or turning a soul from Christ?  Are we frozen in fear of the third rail? Should it be the most important thing to worry 
about? Or contending for the faith against deniers; is that most important? Or is it the soul of the denier that is of utmost importance? Or none of these at all?

Gem startles me frequently, with his discernment, intellect, clarity and brevity. 
Post 31 was one such and I thought it was appropriate. A bit like a karate chop to the wind pipe of one who denies the Bible as fiction, but nevertheless 
grounded in the Word.  Gem says prove me wrong and instructs: repent and get baptized.  A complete, sound package...at least until Israel's excellent post.

Many folks here write as they earnestly believe the Spirit leads them.  Yet is it 
ever worth a clever quip or two if such may douse a soul forever? Again, that 
potential seems to exist when atheists attack the Word as fiction, or when doctrines collide among believers.

Spirit led discussion may result in soul extinguishment.  Should that be a 
warning label atop each thread, like cancer warnings on tobacco products?


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 28, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> I agree with this, but immediately struggle in application.  Post 31 above, for example.  A writer who calls the Bible fiction plays a common card in response to criticism, saying "true" believers would refrain from criticism to try to win his lost soul.  I found it tough to take that seriously, and received it as another attack from this hostile denier.
> 
> Soul trouble and struggle befall hostile deniers, too.  How do we make room for the sinner's heart to ricochet to the sinner's hoped benefit, contend for our faith, and avoid the third rail of extinguishing or turning a soul from Christ.
> 
> ...



It's called "tact" and something we must work at. It's a fine line and we've talked about it before. Like witnessing to someone who just lost a daughter by telling them it would have been easier if God was in their life.

Also:
We sometimes give up on Atheist as if they are somehow more evil than non believers. I don't see a difference. Shouldn't we continue to witness to them too?


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## Israel (Nov 28, 2013)

The maker of men does not need my help.
But needing all of his I have discovered some of the ways in which he tells me I may avail myself of it.
Even if, and when, I feel pressed by what I may sense as the need of others, he patiently reminds me, that that pressing, of itself, is a reminder to me of all I need of him.
Therefore, at best, all I share is desperate need.
Some, it seems, abide in this same place...where we sit, and wait, in hope, and hope, we have learned, makes not ashamed.

When un-sensed, need creates many things through the mediator of un-sense, non sense, who is always incensed. He is terrified we will discover our naked need, and in that, come to know the God of all sufficiency.
It suffices him to have us believe we can help, and as such, like him, mistake ourselves as the helper.

How much of "our" common need can we be convinced to not shirk, not despise, not scorn?
And they had all things in common...


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## gemcgrew (Nov 29, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> Gem startles me frequently, with his discernment, intellect, clarity and brevity. Post 31 was one such and I thought it was appropriate. A bit like a karate chop to the wind pipe of one who denies the Bible as fiction, but based on the Word followed by an open invitation for the denier to win the argument by repenting and getting baptized.


Please do not mistake my words as an invitation.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 29, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Please do not mistake my words as an invitation.



He had a memory lapse and forgot who he was talking about.


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## M80 (Nov 29, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Salvation is of the Lord, we cant save you. The experience you had as a young man sounds more like a missed opportunity than a panic attack. It also sounds like the preacher was at fault in misleading you and telling you, you were saved. He had no part in it, his job was to deliver a message that God had placed on his heart, not tell people that they were saved.
> God has called on you before. I believe you will someday give in to this calling.



Amen mister Hobbs. I know what you where meaning by what you wrote. I was thinking the same thing while I read what he wrote about the preacher. I can give scripture, pray and do whatever I can to help someone with salvation but I can't tell someone they are. Salvation is a personal relationship between us and The Lord.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 29, 2013)

Matt 13:18 “Hear then the parable of the sower. 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road. 20 The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away. 22 And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 23 And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”


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## barryl (Nov 29, 2013)

Oh What a Savior!!!!!!!! Talk about a promise, God gave it to us in writing!!!!!!!!! Can't beat a guarantee like that!!!!!!!


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 29, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Matt 13:18 “Hear then the parable of the sower. 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road. 20 The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away. 22 And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 23 And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”



Why doesn't everyone understand the word? Jesus said:
And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

This parable sounds like we don't have a choice. The different soils represent the hearts of men. Only the "good soil" hears and understands. There is no choosing in the parable, the quality of the soil is what determines the outcome. 
Where does Jesus get his "good soil" from to sow his seeds? I think from his Father.
Very confusing for me as a free will believer. Not saying much for me if I don't understand the parable correctly either.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 29, 2013)

mwilliams80 said:


> Amen mister Hobbs. I know what you where meaning by what you wrote. I was thinking the same thing while I read what he wrote about the preacher. I can give scripture, pray and do whatever I can to help someone with salvation but I can't tell someone they are. Salvation is a personal relationship between us and The Lord.



You can't tell someone else they are saved, but you can tell yourself you are saved? What is in your heart that gives you "blessed assurance" that you don't know if the rest of your family is saved or not? What about their fruit?


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## Ronnie T (Nov 29, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Matt 13:18 “Hear then the parable of the sower. 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road. 20 The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away. 22 And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 23 And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”





Artfuldodger said:


> Why doesn't everyone understand the word? Jesus said:
> And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
> 
> This parable sounds like we don't have a choice. The different soils represent the hearts of men. Only the "good soil" hears and understands. There is no choosing in the parable, the quality of the soil is what determines the outcome.
> ...



It isn't about the soils.  The soil is representative.  Each person receives the same seed, but each person might receive the seed in differing ways.
Read the entire chapter Art.
Jesus' point is that a person needs to receive the seed(Gospel) with the proper mind and spirit.  It isn't the Gospel(seed) that's insufficient, it's the continued earnestness of the one brought into contact with God's gift.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 29, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> It isn't about the soils.  The soil is representative.  Each person receives the same seed, but each person might receive the seed in differing ways.
> Read the entire chapter Art.
> Jesus' point is that a person needs to receive the seed(Gospel) with the proper mind and spirit.  It isn't the Gospel(seed) that's insufficient, it's the continued earnestness of the one brought into contact with God's gift.



Reading about the flood and Moses has cast a tiny little bit of doubt in my mind about my freewill. Then I read that non-believers can't fully understand the Bible. 
"But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty."
(Can a non believer understand the seed. Is he on good ground?)
I would think that God is knowledgeable enough to know that spreading seeds all over various kinds of soil would be futile except only on good soil. We don't personally know who is good soil but God does.
To start with Jesus' parables were not for the lost. Now getting back to the sower parable. Let's use the version where some fell by the wayside and some was distributed by birds.
A good farmer would only sow his seed on good soil. Who prepared this soil?


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## Ronnie T (Nov 29, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Reading about the flood and Moses has cast a tiny little bit of doubt in my mind about my freewill. Then I read that non-believers can't fully understand the Bible.
> "But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty."
> (Can a non believer understand the seed. Is he on good ground?)
> I would think that God is knowledgeable enough to know that spreading seeds all over various kinds of soil would be futile except only on good soil. We don't personally know who is good soil but God does.
> ...



In the days that Jesus was living farming and planting of seeds wasn't as advanced as it is today.  Seeds were sown, not dropped neatly off the backside of a farm tractor.  
Don't try to make these verses match your beliefs, or anyone else's.  The Gospel is sown to all.........
.


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## M80 (Nov 29, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> In the days that Jesus was living farming and planting of seeds wasn't as advanced as it is today.  Seeds were sown, not dropped neatly off the backside of a farm tractor.
> Don't try to make these verses match your beliefs, or anyone else's.  The Gospel is sown to all.........
> .



Amen


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 30, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> In the days that Jesus was living farming and planting of seeds wasn't as advanced as it is today.  Seeds were sown, not dropped neatly off the backside of a farm tractor.
> Don't try to make these verses match your beliefs, or anyone else's.  The Gospel is sown to all.........
> .



That is so true. Farmers "broadcasted' their seeds. Some did go to places they didn't won't them to go. Is this what this parable is about? The Sower accidentally sowing seeds he had no intention of sowing? I don't think so. 
I'm not trying to make these verses match anything other than the truth. I don't even know what that truth is. I don't even know why you used this parable in this thread. I don't even know why i'm so concerned with it. It does scare me a little when I read that if I don't understand this parable, I can't understand the others.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 30, 2013)

I'm a freewill believer, I don't believe people are totally depraved. I don't believe non believers can't understand the Bible. I don't believe non believers are evil and don't have a good heart.
Non believers can have a good heart. They can take the seed from the Sower and make it grow. 
Luke 8:15 says they can:
But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.

(This verse doesn't say you must be a Christian to have a good heart.)


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 30, 2013)

Luke 8:14
The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature.

(OK, I'm back) (It was a close call) (I was headed to the Election side)
(Still, depending on how you look at it, that parable compares to the Potter & clay story.)


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 30, 2013)

Now to make all of this tie into the OP, how can we show the Holy Spirit's relation to the Non Believer?
Jesus said this about the Holy Spirit: "When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment."

The Holy Spirit is actually responsible for the regeneration of the unbeliever to one that trusts in Christ. 
Maybe the Holy Spirit makes us "good soil."
That truly is a Holy Ghost experience. A poor lost soul called to Jesus by the guidance of the Holy Spirit to see the light and become good soil ready to receive the seed from the Sower. And a tiny little bit of freewill of the individual too.
The Holy Spirit is way more today than just the Holy Bible.


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## gemcgrew (Nov 30, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't believe non believers are evil and don't have a good heart.


Well now, isn't that precious. If unbelievers are not evil, they are good. If they are good, the judgement is a piece of cake. But good relative to man, or to God? Jesus says that only God is good.

Uh-oh...


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## Ronnie T (Nov 30, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Now to make all of this tie into the OP, how can we show the Holy Spirit's relation to the Non Believer?
> Jesus said this about the Holy Spirit: "When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment."
> 
> The Holy Spirit is actually responsible for the regeneration of the unbeliever to one that trusts in Christ.
> ...



I think you've read more into the above verse than the verse actually says.  What did the verse say?


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 30, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Well now, isn't that precious. If unbelievers are not evil, they are good. If they are good, the judgement is a piece of cake. But good relative to man, or to God? Jesus says that only God is good.
> 
> Uh-oh...



I would assume you believe the good soil is from God. Glad you picked up on this.  Why would a farmer purposely waste his seeds on anything but good soil? Sure some of it gets scattered on the pathway and some is carried by birds and dropped on rocks. That seed never even has a chance to mature, only the seed sown on the good soil. Does good soil equal good hearts?


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## Israel (Nov 30, 2013)

Cause this farmer ain't like any farmer we've met. 
His generosity of seed should never be mistaken for its lack of preciousness.
Some do.
Even to the considering that God is common.
Normal, yes.
Common, no.
We sow of finitude.
Fear of lack.
Not so God.
All our opinions catch up with us.
May faith, instead.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 30, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> I think you've read more into the above verse than the verse actually says.  What did the verse say?



Does the Holy Spirit not  guide someone to Jesus?
John 16:8 
King James Bible
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary: 

he will reprove—This is too weak a word to express what is meant. Reproof is indeed implied in the term employed, and doubtless the word begins with it. But convict or convince is the thing intended; and as the one expresses the work of the Spirit on the unbelieving portion of mankind, and the other on the believing, it is better not to restrict it to either.

Matthew Henry's commentary:

See here the office of the Spirit, first to reprove, or to convince. Convincing work is the Spirit's work; he can do it effectually, and none but he. It is the method the Holy Spirit takes, first to convince, and then to comfort. The Spirit shall convince the world, of sin; not merely tell them of it. 
The Holy Spirit is our Guide, not only to show us the way, but to go with us by continued aids and influences.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 30, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Does the Holy Spirit not  guide someone to Jesus?
> John 16:8
> King James Bible
> And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
> ...



Does the Holy Spirit deceive, trick and lead some away from Christ?
.


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## M80 (Nov 30, 2013)

It is Christians responsibility to sow the seeds. God gives the increase.


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## gemcgrew (Nov 30, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Does the Holy Spirit not  guide someone to Jesus?


"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."


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## Ronnie T (Nov 30, 2013)

God draws by the gospel. It is the power of God unto salvation (Ro 1:16). If our will consents, so that we yield to the drawing, we will come to Christ.

Go ye into all the world preaching the Gospel(go sow seed throughout all the world), those who believe and are baptized will be saved, those who do not believe what is sown will be condemned.


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## gemcgrew (Nov 30, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> God draws by the gospel.


May I use your reply to Art? "I think you've read more into the above verse than the verse actually says. What did the verse say?" 


Ronnie T said:


> It is the power of God unto salvation (Ro 1:16).


Yes


Ronnie T said:


> If our will consents, so that we yield to the drawing, we will come to Christ.


Now it is powerless without our consent, our yielding? Who has convinced you that we are more powerful than the Gospel?


Ronnie T said:


> Go ye into all the world preaching the Gospel(go sow seed throughout all the world), those who believe and are baptized will be saved, those who do not believe what is sown will be condemned.


"Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake."(1 Thessalonians 1:4,5)

Ronnie, when the Gospel comes in power, the deaf hear and the blind see (Isaiah 29:18).


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 30, 2013)

1 Thessalonians 1:5 for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction; just as you know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.

Thanks for sharing the Holy Spirit experience of that verse. It appears "good" does come from God.  Did anyone ever show this verse when we were discussing the "written word" and the "Holy Spirit" being two different things?
I don't fully understand our struggle or, my struggle, with free will and election. Perhaps I never will. I do understand the Gospel comes in written word, the power of preachers, and the Holy Ghost. 
I'm still studying the parable of the Sower.
Jesus said, "Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear."


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## Ronnie T (Nov 30, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> May I use your reply to Art? "I think you've read more into the above verse than the verse actually says. What did the verse say?"
> 
> Yes
> 
> ...



Well, you certainly do a good job of making me say things that I did not say, and making God's scriptures say what they do not say........... including Isaiah 29:18. (During the days that Jesus Himself preached the Gospel, the deaf were made to hear, and the blind were made to see.)

Go ye into all the world preaching the Gospel(go sow seed throughout all the world), those who believe and are baptized will be saved, those who do not believe what is sown will be condemned. 

Mark 1:14 Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Luke 4:17 And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor.
He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives,
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set free those who are oppressed,
19 To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.”

Romans 1:16 
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Gal 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.


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## gemcgrew (Nov 30, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Well, you certainly do a good job of making me say things that I did not say, and making God's scriptures say what they do not say


They were your words and I may have misunderstood your meaning. Let's revisit them...


Ronnie T said:


> God draws by the gospel. It is the power of God unto salvation (Ro 1:16). If our will consents, so that we yield to the drawing, we will come to Christ.


Does the power of God cause our will to consent and our yielding?


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## Ronnie T (Dec 1, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> They were your words and I may have misunderstood your meaning. Let's revisit them...
> 
> Does the power of God cause our will to consent and our yielding?



The power of God does not force one to consent to salvation.  If God did that, it would not be through faith.
But it is the power of God that affords us the blessed opportunity.

Ephesians 1:His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,


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## Israel (Dec 1, 2013)

1Co_9:16  For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel! 

Ha! ha!

What a relief from "trying" to be good. What a relief from trying to show others they "should" be good...by believing God!
By speaking the truth.

The undercutting of our seeking to use the goodness of God to exalt the self. 
Now is the axe laid to the root of the tree. 

Not because God is jealously guarding something from us (the original lie swallowed Gen_3:5  For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.)

But because God's plan is so much more than ever we could accomplish for ourselves.

The lie was not as much "ye shall not die"...as it was inclusive of the subtle accusation against God...as a with-holder.
Is God good?
Is there anything anyone can add to that? Impossible.
Do there remain the many temptations to "see" if that can detracted from? For in darkness we believe, if it can be detracted from, then there must be something we can add!

Yes, he works all things after the counsel of his will! His will!
The King with 10,000, going out to meet the King with 20,000...regardless of how much "damage" the first King imagines he can inflict, despite the stand he believes he may take, for his own glory...always remains the same in outcome...and it is NOT a glorious defeat.

Our will is completely ineffectual...except to our own souls.
And the power of the gospel resides not in soulish appeals, nor soulish acceptance...but in the truth of Spirit.

Through the spirit of truth.
All flesh is already judged. All efforts to make oneself acceptable, done. All efforts to make oneself anything...futile.

Jesus is Lord.

Any delusions that we have anything to make him so...either in our own self, or even may abet others in doing so...over.

Because we have learned we cannot "help"...we are not "the helper" we are gloriously also, relieved of rebellion.


2Co_13:8  For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.


Believe and see...Jesus is Lord.
Rebel and see...Jesus is Lord.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 1, 2013)

Great verse.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 

For this reason we also constantly thank God that...............................
 when you received the word of God which you heard from us, 
you accepted it not as the word of men, 
but for what it really is, 
the word of God, 

which also performs its work in you who believe.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 1, 2013)

Ronnie..
 When you speak of " The Gospel " do you mean the writings found in Matthew, Mark, Luke , and John? 

 Do you mean the "Good News" , and if the " Good News" how do you define this? 

 I ask this only because it was asked of me once as a Sunday School teacher by a teenager...how would you respond? This discussion reminds me of having to answer this.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 1, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> The power of God does not force one to consent to salvation.


Ronnie, the power of God is effective, it saves. God does not have to "force", that which he completely controls.


Ronnie T said:


> If God did that, it would not be through faith.


It is not my faith that saves me. It is the faith of Christ that my salvation was accomplished. By grace...through faith...not of me...a gift of God...not of works. "Salvation is of the Lord!"


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## Ronnie T (Dec 1, 2013)

Okay.  I'll leave you to your belief.
.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 1, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Ronnie, the power of God is effective, it saves. God does not have to "force", that which he completely controls.
> 
> It is not my faith that saves me. It is the faith of Christ that my salvation was accomplished. By grace...through faith...not of me...a gift of God...not of works. "Salvation is of the Lord!"



Are you saying that personal faith isn't a part of salvation?  That the "faith" that scripture speaks of is speaking of the faith that Jesus had?

That I am saved by grace, through the faith that Jesus has?


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## BT Charlie (Dec 2, 2013)

11 minutes elapsed between Ronnie's ok I will leave you to your belief and his double-take.  I am glad you asked your follow up questions and I look forward to the answers!   Blessings all.


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## hummerpoo (Dec 2, 2013)

This is not my story (Ms. Powers and I have nothing in common save one thing) but I think this thread would be incomplete without her story.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct...nt-jesus-follower-kirsten-powers.html?start=1


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## gemcgrew (Dec 2, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Are you saying that personal faith isn't a part of salvation?  That the "faith" that scripture speaks of is speaking of the faith that Jesus had?
> 
> That I am saved by grace, through the faith that Jesus has?


I am not sure how I can be any more clear with my wording. I have no acceptance before God, but Christ. My faith contributes nothing to my salvation. My faith is the result of the faith of Christ. Christ saves alone.

Does that help at all?


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## Ronnie T (Dec 2, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> I am not sure how I can be any more clear with my wording. I have no acceptance before God, but Christ. My faith contributes nothing to my salvation. My faith is the result of the faith of Christ. Christ saves alone.
> 
> Does that help at all?



Actually, no it doesn't.  It doesn't help me, and it doesn't help you.

Truly, it isn't you and what you see in yourself that I'm asking about........ I wondering what it is that you teach and provide to those who might ask.

I'm hoping that your words in this only reflect your awareness as a child who has come full circle in your walk with Christ..... that you lay it all at the feet of your Savior.  I am able to do that also, in whatever capacity that I have to do that.

But you do understand the teachings and need for faith as taught by Christ, His apostles, and His record?  Don't you?  If not, I'm saddened to say that your teachings are perverted.  And I'm sorry to say that.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 2, 2013)

But I think he means that in the most positive way possible.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 2, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Actually, no it doesn't.  It doesn't help me, and it doesn't help you.
> 
> Truly, it isn't you and what you see in yourself that I'm asking about........


I understood you to be asking about my personal faith and salvation. Were we discussing another?


Ronnie T said:


> I wondering what it is that you teach and provide to those who might ask.


Wondering or attacking? Makes little difference to me.


Ronnie T said:


> But you do understand the teachings and need for faith as taught by Christ, His apostles, and His record?  Don't you?  If not, I'm saddened to say that your teachings are perverted.  And I'm sorry to say that.


I take it then that you would have me to trust in my faith? No thank you. I was saved from that. What I could not do, Christ did for me. Christ alone is my savior. Not Christ plus my faith.
As far as my teachings of "Christ alone" being perverted? Hmmm

What does Paul say about the faith of Christ?

“I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.” (Galatians 2:20) 

“But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference.” (Romans 3:21-22)

“But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,  And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.” (Philippians 3:7-9)

"But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed." (Galatians 3:22,23)

But before faith came? Is Paul talking about my faith? No. He just said it is "the faith of Jesus Christ".

Ronnie, no hard feelings here and I thank you for your kindness.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 2, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> But I think he means that in the most positive way possible.




No harm done here.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 3, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> I understood you to be asking about my personal faith and salvation. Were we discussing another?
> 
> Wondering or attacking? Makes little difference to me.
> (I promise that I'm not attacking.  But I'm saying what I feel must be said.)
> ...



I would rather there be hard feeling from you concerning my comments so that you would come to realize that you simply cannot set aside what the Gospel teaches concerning the necessity of a person having faith.  The person's faith is central to that person receiving salvation by God's wonderful grace.
You must know there are literally dozens and dozens of scripture that uphold the importance of a person having faith.

It cannot be denied.  It cannot be ignored.  To do so is to teach contrary to what was taught to the 1st century church, and now left to us.

I urge you to check out a lexicon for the above verses.  Those verses, as posted by you, have been proven to be inaccurate..... or at least better written since KJV.

(á¼�Î½ Ï€á½·ÏƒÏ„ÎµÎ¹ Î¶á¿¶ Ï„á¿‡ Ï„Î¿á¿¦ Ï…á¼±Î¿á¿¦ Ï„Î¿á¿¦ Î˜ÎµÎ¿á¿¦


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## SemperFiDawg (Dec 3, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> I am not sure how I can be any more clear with my wording. I have no acceptance before God, but Christ. My faith contributes nothing to my salvation. My faith is the result of the faith of Christ. Christ saves alone.
> 
> Does that help at all?



Well that's a bit of a different way of looking at it.  I don't think I agree with it.  It certainly took Christ's faith to carry out the redemption, but in Romans  4 Paul clearly teaches that a personal faith is necessary also, not to mention Jesus's many statements to individuals that in essence their faith had healed them.

The obvious ramifications of this line of thought are bewildering to put it mildly.  If no personal faith is necessary then;  1) Why was mankind ever even given the privilege of free will: It's not necessary in that scenario.   And 2) If no personal faith is necessary, everyone is saved, even Atheist.  Why then the Great Commission?  3) If no personal faith is necessary, only the faith of Christ to see through the Crucifixion, why even bother with the resurrection?  The redemption was completed upon his death.  He himself said so.  

John 19:30
When Jesus had received the wine, he said, “It is finished.” Then he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. 

At this point his faith had served its purpose, it had persevered and the price of our sins had been paid.  Christ had completed all HE had to do for redemption to take place.  

If that was all that was needed, the resurrection would not have been necessary, but yet it is the resurrection upon which all of Christianity stands or falls.  Why?  Because mankind had to be shown that the price he paid was acceptable to God.  Why?  So that they could and would believe/have faith.  Don't you see?  Your position renders THEIR faith inconsequential, and hence renders the Resurrection a pointless and unnecessary, afterthought.  


I'm sure I could come up with more, but how many more does one need to see the contradictions that spring up from this?  Gem please give this careful consideration.

As to the verses you posted, I admire you for being so well versed in the scriptures, but as has been alluded to by Ronnie, the newer, more accurate translations, and I checked several different and accepted ones,  offer a different contextual rendering  supporting a personal faith.   You may want to try the NIV, NRSV, NASB, HCSB, or even the New King James Bible.


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## Israel (Dec 3, 2013)

Who of us had anything to do with the resurrection? Was it between us, and God, and Jesus to accomplish? What was our contribution to the raising of Christ from the dead?
Did he come forth from the tomb because we believed...was it our fervency that broke...and breaks the bonds of death?
What makes Jesus Lord? Do we "make" him Lord?
And if...no...rather...because he IS the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, where were we when God concluded this salvation...to be made manifest to us, in the fulness of time?


One might say this, "I am crucified with Christ...nevertheless, I live, yet not I, but Christ that liveth within me, and the life I now live I live by the faith of the son of God...


Might one come to see "I pray not for these alone, but for those who shall believe upon me, through their word..."

Who _kept_...by his faith, those present, then? Who spoke the "others" who would come, as reality...long before any of us opened our eyes in this place?

We may come to see, perhaps, (for God has already appointed our times and experiences), as Peter, a signal wonderful truth. "But I have prayed for you...that your faith faileth not...", and in the awakening to that, never again confuse what we bring to the table in the face of the faith of the Son of God.

Self glory hides in many many places.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 3, 2013)

Gems' argument would be better served by asking, where does our faith originate instead of showing verses that might have the wrong interpretation. But doesn't saying verses were interpreted wrong open up a whole other can of worms, where does it stop?
God gives us a measure of faith. Is faith a gift of the Holy Spirit? 
Maybe that measure of faith can help the person who believes in total depravity to get over the fact that we don't have enough faith of our own to seek salvation. 
Either way as already stated, there are to many verses about us having faith for us to not have a faith requirement or fruit.

1 Corinthians 12:9 The same Spirit gives great faith to another, and to someone else the one Spirit gives the gift of healing.

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. (KJV) or "a measure of faith." (NKJV)

Matthew 14:31 And immediately Jesus stretched out [His] hand and caught him, and said to him, "O you of little faith, why did you doubt?"

Luke 17:6 So the Lord said, "If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, `Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,' and it would obey you."

Mark 4:40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? How is it that ye have no faith? (KJV)


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## hummerpoo (Dec 3, 2013)

Israel said:


> Who of us had anything to do with the resurrection? Was it between us, and God, and Jesus to accomplish? What was our contribution to the raising of Christ from the dead?
> Did he come forth from the tomb because we believed...was it our fervency that broke...and breaks the bonds of death?
> What makes Jesus Lord? Do we "make" him Lord?
> And if...no...rather...because he IS the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, where were we when God concluded this salvation...to be made manifest to us, in the fulness of time?
> ...



1 Cor. 13:
 12.  For now we see in a mirror dimly (or glass, darkly), but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

The mirror, although dim, is a great tool for the faithful...glass, not so much.

_________________________________________________

Another thought from this verse; a defective glass, clear or dim, will always produce a defective mirror.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 3, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> I would rather there be hard feeling from you concerning my comments so that you would come to realize that you simply cannot set aside what the Gospel teaches concerning the necessity of a person having faith.  The person's faith is central to that person receiving salvation by God's wonderful grace.
> You must know there are literally dozens and dozens of scripture that uphold the importance of a person having faith.
> 
> It cannot be denied.  It cannot be ignored.  To do so is to teach contrary to what was taught to the 1st century church, and now left to us.


Faith is absolutely necessary for salvation.


Ronnie T said:


> I urge you to check out a lexicon for the above verses.  Those verses, as posted by you, have been proven to be inaccurate..... or at least better written since KJV.
> 
> (ἐν πίστει ζῶ τῇ τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ Θεοῦ


I have studied it Ronnie. The distinction is clear in Paul's usage. I have said this before and I say it again, "if given enough time and God allows it, man will translate the Word, out of the words".


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## gemcgrew (Dec 3, 2013)

Israel said:


> Who of us had anything to do with the resurrection? Was it between us, and God, and Jesus to accomplish? What was our contribution to the raising of Christ from the dead?
> Did he come forth from the tomb because we believed...was it our fervency that broke...and breaks the bonds of death?
> What makes Jesus Lord? Do we "make" him Lord?
> And if...no...rather...because he IS the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, where were we when God concluded this salvation...to be made manifest to us, in the fulness of time?
> ...


Amen.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 3, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Ronnie, the power of God is effective, it saves. God does not have to "force", that which he completely controls.
> 
> It is not my faith that saves me. It is the faith of Christ that my salvation was accomplished. By grace...through faith...not of me...a gift of God...not of works. "Salvation is of the Lord!"





gemcgrew said:


> I am not sure how I can be any more clear with my wording. I have no acceptance before God, but Christ. My faith contributes nothing to my salvation. My faith is the result of the faith of Christ. Christ saves alone.
> 
> Does that help at all?



Okay.  Lets try to find a biblical truth to nail down.
You do in fact believe a person must have faith in Christ Jesus in order to receive salvation, and without that faith, salvation will not be freely given?

And if that's so, why didn't you just say that in the beginning?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 3, 2013)

I would like to see some verses where your belief in Jesus comes from God. If your faith comes from God, so would your belief.
Is this what being led to Jesus by God is?
I must say in relation to the OP, that is the ultimate Holy Ghost experience. I don't think any others can equal that. Not that they were trying to out do each other with their personal experiences.
That's "Salvation is of the Lord!" 125%. Complete control is force.


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## Israel (Dec 3, 2013)

Of all we quote regarding justification by faith, the exceeding benefit of faith, the necessity of faith...besides Jesus...really, to whose testimony do we resort more often than Paul's?
Understand, please, I am not seeking to diminish any or exalt any above another...but if we be honest, (and here is liberty to reprove me)...whose words are most frequently referenced?

If so, (or even, if not) can we imagine him renegotiating his Damascus road experience? 
I have no desire to promote a particular opinion, but how could one imagine that his experience there did not, in a most fundamental way, inform all his later testimony?

Had not this brother ample opportunity to say something like:
"I kept trying to stamp out those of "the Way"...but their persistence, their devotion, their unwavering cleaving to the name of Jesus, in some way affected me and caused me to consider my error"?
Or perhaps he might have said a million other things that could give testimony to something other than that of which the scripture speaks..."and Paul breathing out threatenings...", and which also, I seem to apprehend he never denied...but affirmed.

Plainly speaking, I see no evidence given by Paul, or about Paul by others, that would indicate he had any inclination toward faith in Christ. In fact, I only find the opposite.

Some may rightly say, "well, this was Paul's unique experience...", and of that, there is no denying.
But, as to the others...did not our Lord also say "you have not chosen me, but I have chosen you..."?

If "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" and that simply means a devotion to scripture...can we not see that Paul's testimony might be different? And that also of many others?

I suppose one could say it was within Paul's power to dismiss the light, the voice, the words that so convicted him to cry out..."who are you Lord?" But, thankfully...we will never know, if even possible, where that might have led.

The word of God pierced his hearing, and (I see) faith came.
I can only say the same, for me.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 3, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> You do in fact believe a person must have faith in Christ Jesus in order to receive salvation, and without that faith, salvation will not be freely given?


Of course I don't believe that. How could I? How can you? How is it freely given, if something prior is required from me? This is nothing but poorly cloaked legalism. Christ saved me by himself, or not at all.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 3, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Okay.  Lets try to find a biblical truth to nail down.
> You do in fact believe a person must have faith in Christ Jesus in order to receive salvation, and without that faith, salvation will not be freely given?
> 
> And if that's so, why didn't you just say that in the beginning?





gemcgrew said:


> Of course I don't believe that. How could I? How can you? How is it freely given, if something prior is required from me? This is nothing but poorly cloaked legalism. Christ saved me by himself, or not at all.





Ronnie T said:


> Okay.  I'll leave you to your belief.
> .



I think I really mean it this time.


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## SemperFiDawg (Dec 4, 2013)

Oh my!


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## M80 (Dec 4, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Of course I don't believe that. How could I? How can you? How is it freely given, if something prior is required from me? This is nothing but poorly cloaked legalism. Christ saved me by himself, or not at all.



This breaks my heart. It takes repentence to receive it. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness. For whosever calleth upon the name of The Lord shall be saved. Are you saying that the Holy Ghost makes us get saved whether we want to or not. It takes our faith in him. I believe we are saved wholly by Jesus. But he isn't going to force us. He wants us to chose him


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## centerpin fan (Dec 4, 2013)

mwilliams80 said:


> This breaks my heart.



I thought that a lot while the baptism threads were going on.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 4, 2013)

mwilliams80 said:


> This breaks my heart. It takes repentence to receive it.


Well, isn't that lovely. God commands men to repent. This would require obedience. So now we are up to 4 things that you guys are requiring of me, of my flesh, in order to receive this "free" gift of grace. If I was in possession of faith, obedience, belief and repentance, why in the world would I need to be born again?

Throw my testimony out, reject it and forget it. But if you can, shine the light of Paul's testimony on what you are proposing.


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## formula1 (Dec 4, 2013)

*Re:*



mwilliams80 said:


> This breaks my heart.



Mine too!  Our faith is needed, albeit only a mustard seed, but it is still needed.  We must muster just barely enough faith to repent (turn) and receive forgiveness. Yet Jesus made it possible and perfects it, that is for sure!  Without Him, we have nothing!

Hebrews 11:6 
And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who seek Him.

Ephesians 3
11 This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through our faith in Him.

1 Timothy 1:5 
The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

1 John 5:4 
For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

Hebrews 12 
1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

Luke 24
45 Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, 47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in His name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

Acts 2:38 
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


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## SemperFiDawg (Dec 4, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Of course I don't believe that. How could I? How can you? How is it freely given, if something prior is required from me? This is nothing but poorly cloaked legalism. Christ saved me by himself, or not at all.



Gem.  Just curious, but what denomination are you?


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## gemcgrew (Dec 4, 2013)

formula1 said:


> Mine too!  Our faith is needed, albeit only a mustard seed, but it is still needed.  We must muster just barely enough faith to repent (turn) and receive forgiveness. Yet Jesus made it possible and perfects it, that is for sure!  Without Him, we have nothing!
> 
> Hebrews 11:6
> And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who seek Him.
> ...


F1, Which of those verses supports your statement. Is Christ not the author and finisher of our faith?(Heb. 12:2)


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## gemcgrew (Dec 4, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Gem.  Just curious, but what denomination are you?


Baptist


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## 04ctd (Dec 4, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> I think I really mean it this time.



will you talk to me?
you have to be watching this derailment of this thread, to at least see where it ends...



Ronnie T said:


> I urge you to check out a lexicon for the above verses.  Those verses, as posted by you, have been proven to be inaccurate..... or at least better written since KJV.



you have posted some very wise stuff, and some stuff that has made me wonder ("no music in your church")

what version Bible do you preach out of, and what denomination are you?

tks
john


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## BT Charlie (Dec 4, 2013)

Apologies to all.  Google search: Faith of Christ v. Faith in Christ.  Here is one article, with no warranty expressed or implied regarding credibility or authority.  It perhaps begins a basis for some context for the least of us.  Work it out in your own fear and trembling.  Also read what Paul has to say about love and unity within the Body of Christ. May our decorum live up to his words. 



"BY FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST"

"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:"

- Romans 3.21,22

In many modern versions "by faith of Jesus Christ" is changed to "through faith in Jesus Christ", and the question arises whether the earlier translators were mistaken, or whether both renderings are admissible. The Greek reads DIA PISTEOS IESOU CHRISTOU, literally - through (by means of, by) faith of Jesus Christ - the names having the genitive ending. For more than two hundred years it has been debated among Biblical scholars whether the genitive in English rightly conveys the meaning of the Greek. 

The Rev. John Owen, who translated and edited Calvin's Commentary on Romans for the Calvin Translation Society in 1849, wrote: "The words 'by or through the faith of Jesus Christ' mean not the faith which is His, but the faith of which He is the object. They ought to be rendered 'through faith in Jesus Christ'. The genitive case often has this meaning: 'Have faith in (of) God', Mk. 11.22; ‘I live by the faith of the Son of God', should be in our language, 'I live by faith in the Son of God'. This genitive case of the object is an Hebraism, and is of frequent occurrence".

Dr. James MacKnight, who published his new translation and commentary on the Epistles in 1795 after thirty years of labour, thought otherwise: "I therefore think the original clause does not signify through faith in Jesus Christ', which is sometimes the meaning of the expression, but 'through faith of Jesus Christ', as it is rightly rendered in our English Bible; understanding thereby, 'the faith which Jesus Christ hath enjoined', agreeably to the use of the genitive of the agent. For that this is the true meaning of the expression is plain from Philippians 3. 9, where 'the righteousness which is through the faith of Christ' is termed 'the righteousness which is of God by faith'. In like manner Romans 4.16 'That which is of the faith of Abraham' does not mean faith in Abraham, but faith like that which Abraham exercised. In Matthew 6.33, Romans 1.17 The righteousness of God is not the righteousness which God possesses, but which He requires....See Gal. 2.16, where PISTEOS IESOU, as in this verse, signifies 'the faith enjoined by Jesus'."

Dr. F. Godet's Commentary on Romans mentions and dismisses another alternative advanced by some scholars, that the passage refers to the faith that Jesus Christ Himself had, His faith in God, His fidelity to God, or His fidelity to us. Godet then confidently asserts -"The only possible sense is this: 'faith in Jesus Christ; ‘compare Mark 11.22; Gal. 2.16; James 2.1 etc." 

Dr. E. H. Gifford in the "Speaker's Commentary" wrote: "Justifying faith is here presented, not as a faith in God of which Christ is the author, but as faith in Christ Himself ... ."

Dr. A. T. Robertson in "Word Pictures in the New Testament" (1930-33) insists that the Apostle used the "objective genitive", meaning 'faith in Jesus Christ', and not the "subjective genitive", meaning "faith of Jesus Christ". 

Dr. Nigel Turner's volume on Syntax, (Volume III of "A Grammar of New Testament Greek by James Hope Moulton") was published in 1963; His study of the genitive shows that it is often difficult to
determine the relationship expressed by it: "The relationship expressed by the genitive is so vague that it is only by means of the context and wider considerations that it can be made definite. For practical purposes perhaps the only real division among the genitives is that between subjective and objective ... .The sole question which the translator and exegete need to ask is whether the relationship is directed outwards from the noun in the genitive to some other person or from some other person to the noun in the genitive; or, to put it differently, whether or not the action implied by the independent noun is carried out by the noun in the genitive. Obviously 'the fall of it' (Mt. 7.27) is subjective - the house falls; so is 'a murmuring of the Hellenists (Grecians) - the Hellenists murmur; so also in 2 Cor. 6. 7 'the armour of righteousness' is probably that which the divine righteousness provides. Clearly 'blessed of my Father' in Matt. 25.34, and 'my beloved' (TON AGAPETON MOU) in Romans 16.5 are objective. But Philippians 1.3 is quite ambiguous: EPI PASE TE MNEIA HUMON may be (a) subjective - whenever you remember me, or (b) objective - whenever I think of you."

Dr. Turner continues: "A noun in the genitive may be the objective of the action implied in the noun on which it depends. There is much ambiguity here in New Testament interpretation. Often a genitive
might equally well be subjective or objective: it is moreover important not to sacrifice fullness of interpretation to an over precise analysis of syntax. There is no reason why a genitive in the author's mind may not have been both subjective and objective. "The love of Christ constrains us" is not to be so strictly analysed, if the author thought of Christ's love to us and our love to Him as a compelling force... .Also indirectly objective are the following expressions: Romans 3.22; James 2.1 etc.

But in the following paragraph Dr. Turner wrote: "Either subjective or objective or both may be phrases like PISTIS IESOU CHRISTOU in Romans 3.22, and AGAPE TOU THEOU (love of God) in Romans 8. 35 ... But DIKAIOSUNE TOU THEOU (righteousness of God) in Romans I. I 7;3. 22, indicates the source, and is therefore subjective, as shown by Philippians 3. 9 and Romans 9.30... .It is not easy to decide in 2 Cor. 13.13 between subjective and objective (HE KOINONIA TOU HAGIOU PNEUMATOS - the fellowship of the Holy Spirit). 

Dr. Turner acknowledges the difficulty of determining the meaning of the genitive in many passages: "Indeed, so rich is Paul's compression of language with genitives that the attempt to define too narrowly the various types of genitive is vain; they all denote a relationship which is amplified by the context. We might even be tempted to borrow Paul's own comprehensive way of speech and render DIKAIOSUNE THEOU simply - divine grace. Perhaps some genitives which we have taken as subjective or objective may come under this "mystical genitive", e.g. 2 Thess. 3.5: Romans 3.22,26, in which case these verses would speak of faith exercised within the Body of Christ.

The different renderings offered in these paragraphs are all possible, and a thorough exposition of the passage should include them all. As the verse stands in the Authorised Version it may be understood in any of these ways, but if the expression is changed, as in the modern versions, the richness of the passage is impaired by eliminating an ambiguity, which may have been designed by the Divine Author, well understood by the inspired writer, and fully expounded in every possible way for nearly two thousand years. In this passage the modern translators would have been wise to follow Dr. Turner's excellent advice - "It is important not to sacrifice fullness of interpretation to an over-precise analysis of syntax".



For more information write to:

Trinitarian Bible Society
Tyndale House, Dorset Road
London, SW19 3NN, England
Telephone: 0 181 543 7857
Fax: 0 181 543 6370
e-mail: trinitarian.bible.society@ukonline.co.uk
Website: http://biz.ukonline.co.uk/trinitarian.bible.society/contents.htm


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## BT Charlie (Dec 4, 2013)

Also FYI: thegospelcoalition.org/.../faith-in-christ-or-faithfulness-of-christ/‎Cached Similar

Somebody with advanced tech skills can get a proper hyperlink to this cite through the Google search I mentioned.  The writer is leaning toward "faith in Christ" and explains why.

SemperFiDawg has participated in this and thus I construe it as within his original OP and intent. (Trying to avoid another whack for derailment by O4ctd).


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## SemperFiDawg (Dec 4, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Baptist



Gem.  I'm Baptist also, but I honestly have never heard this line of thinking prior to this thread...as off topic as it has went.  Is this a personal belief based on your own study or does your pastor teach it.


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## formula1 (Dec 4, 2013)

*re:*



gemcgrew said:


> F1, Which of those verses supports your statement. Is Christ not the author and finisher of our faith?(Heb. 12:2)



All of them. And I know of many more. Of course, Christ is author and finisher, yet we must have enough faith, however small to choose him, to rake that small step to him. Simple as that, but we'll just agree to disagree. God bless!


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## SemperFiDawg (Dec 4, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> Also FYI: thegospelcoalition.org/.../faith-in-christ-or-faithfulness-of-christ/‎Cached Similar
> 
> Somebody with advanced tech skills can get a proper hyperlink to this cite through the Google search I mentioned.  The writer is leaning toward "faith in Christ" and explains why.
> 
> ...



Actually it isn't, but I'm a bit fascinated by it as it's  a totally new concept/interpretation to me.  My curiosity has gotten the best of me and overcome my intent to return to the context of the OP.....at least for now.


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## Israel (Dec 4, 2013)

Warning:
Long Post.
Brief for me, long, for you.

This is an experience. You will decide whether it's a Holy Ghost experience or not. But I am not posting it because I "wonder"...and hope by sharing it someone or ones will either affirm or deny it.
But, of course you are free...to do with it as you please.


In 1992 I had a dream. Whether the dream is the truth, and the waking circumstances that were so pressing at the time were the illusion, I really don't know. 
Life, I am learning, is not divided into waking and sleeping life...as though one were more "real" than the other. All that matters is truth...waking or sleeping.

I stood in a room, Adolf Hitler was at a desk, proclaiming to some others assembled how he had done so much for his people, suffered so much for his people, how all he had done...had been for them. He was going on and on about his selflessness for his people.

"Liar!" I shouted..."Liar! All you've ever done has been for yourself..."

He shouted to the others in the room, faithful listeners..."Get him! GET HIM!" (meaning me).
I ran from the room, knowing they meant to kill me...I ran into another room, against a wall of which was a huge stack of dead bodies. Quickly I hunkered down amidst them and "played dead".
The guards came into the room and surveyed the scene, looking for me.
An order was given them..."Go through the stack, and run a razor across the eyeballs of each" I understood instantly what they were doing...and had, in the dream, a vision of what running a razor blade across my eyeball "looked like" and how it would betray my being very much alive. (LOL, I knew I could never play "that dead" effectively)
Almost instantly, then, I chose to rise up, and waving my arms at my sides and almost doing a jig I was dancing on top of all the bodies, and their instant response was to unleash automatic weapons fire through me...as I continued dancing and laughing, and I was surprised that not one bullet was felt as it passed through my body, and caused me to dance even more vigorously in joy and wonder. (I see "myself" still...so clearly goofily high stepping and seemingly being shot to ribbons...but...not!)

I awoke. The circumstances then present in "my life" seemed to be addressed at that time, to some extent in my understanding.

And since then, I had shared this with very few others...but, included my wife.

About two years ago, my wife and I watched a movie "Downfall"...the last days of Hitler in his bunker...as chronicled by his faithful secretary, and this movie was basically based upon her recollections and writing. (I do recommend it for those who are not offended by parables in film)

Much is shown, many conversations, dreadful deeds, and a horrible expose of demented souls grafted to this one man in such ferocity as to commit most heinous and heartbreaking betrayals of life.
But what became for me, the single, stunning, piercing scene...was Hitler, recalling all he had done in selflessness for the German people...recounting his struggles, his sufferings, his efforts, for a people he was now willing to abandon the ferocity of the onslaught of vengeful enemies...rather than give an order for capitulation. He deemed them unworthy of his efforts, unworthy in their "failure" to rise successfully to his vision, and therefore merited what abuse they were now enduring in his rabid devotion to fight to the last man.

This is not a "Hitler History" lesson. At least to me. It was an almost 20 year in the making "confirmation"...of things I have seen through a glass darkly, things I have pondered for may years, things I have seen (to me) hinted at in scripture...things plain...but dim. (to one who is dim witted)

They no longer remain as dim. They remain now in a purse, when and where they are sowed is not much of my desire.
But to him who can receive it:

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 
2Th 2:4 _ Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped_; so that he as God _sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 
_


I am not unaware of a usurper. One who would tell me, if I but do "good" things, I show myself...good. And so there's a temptation to be preoccupied with what this usurper would convince me are the good things to do, that when explained...I can easily show "my" goodness.

Liar!


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 4, 2013)

I guess it's OK to use the "Modern Bible interpretations are wrong" with other debates?


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## BT Charlie (Dec 4, 2013)

formula1 said:


> All of them. And I know of many more. Of course, Christ is author and finisher, yet we must have enough faith, however small to choose him, to rake that small step to him. Simple as that, but we'll just agree to disagree. God bless!



Love never fails, brothers.  May we honor our Lord in meditating on this.

Here is our Lord marvelling at a man's saving faith:

Matthew 8:5-13
King James Version (KJV)

5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,

6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.

7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.

8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.

9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.

10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.


Yet Gem has set forth an awesome and potentially intentionally complex thought inspired by God and written by Paul, for our personal benefit, here and now ... the faith of Jesus Christ in us.  Hmmm.  Solid On The Rock, that is, though I acknowledge and am concerned about the obvious pain reaction being expressed.

We frequently say Christ is alive in us. He indwells us. His righteousness in us, not our own, is the only thing worthy of us.  So should it be fatal to our salvation ... and/or heretical ... for the KJV (!) (and many others) to retain this Greek construction?  Much has been written on this subject over the centuries.

Gem obviously is not alone in finding peace and joy in the KJV verses he cited.  (I am not trying to put words in his mouth; however he construes the verses and whatever he senses in so doing are his alone to define.  Lest I say something wrong like "invitation" again and get the fire hose.) And this debate is obviously an old one. 

So can we chat lovingly about it, or is this a call to arms?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 4, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Actually it isn't, but I'm a bit fascinated by it as it's  a totally new concept/interpretation to me.  My curiosity has gotten the best of me and overcome my intent to return to the context of the OP.....at least for now.



Y'all must be living under a rock if you have never heard of Primitive Baptist and the concept of "total depravity."
Under this concept a non believer is evil. sin has corrupted his body. He can't do anything good. He doesn't possess a desire for Christ. He can't believe, repent, ask, seek, much less have any faith to come to Jesus.
It's really not a new concept even for Baptist.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 4, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Y'all must be living under a rock if you have never heard of Primitive Baptist and the concept of "total depravity."
> Under this concept a non believer is evil. sin has corrupted his body. He can't do anything good. He doesn't possess a desire for Christ. He can't believe, repent, ask, seek, much less have any faith to come to Jesus.
> It's really not a new concept even for Baptist.



Art,  I never heard of a primitive baptist until I met and started to date my wife---in 2005. I was 34. Her south ga. grandparents were primitive baptist. Not very many in north ga.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 4, 2013)

Israel said:


> Warning:
> Long Post.
> Brief for me, long, for you.
> 
> ...



So...   you go for the KJV at Galatians 2:20; Romans 3:21-22; Philippians 3:7-9; and Galatians 3:22,23, eh?

I have spent much time praying and studying because of your "God doesn't need me" stuff.  While I trick myself into believing I "get" that I am saved by grace, through faith, and not by works, so none may boast, there's a lot of me swinging off the tree still.  This series of statements has been very beneficial to me, yet I must say I am vexed.  Where you point to Christ's supremacy, you mention not His design, His purpose nor our duties, particularly if led by the Holy Spirit to intercede. Your conclusion suggests inaction is the only course to avoid the sin of self-glorification.  I can't square that with what I sense as Spirit-inspired duty, leaving no choice but to try to offer the Word to a hurting world.

Friendly fire is now called for.  I would like the Holy Spirit to tell us whether the Groom needs His bride?  Does Christ need His Body of Christ? Can any member of the Body, even one deserving of modest covering, decline to act, when called? I mean, what does it mean for Christ to have reconciled us to the Glory of God? Does not the Glory of God refer precisely to man, His crowning creation, prior to the fall? Made in His image, to have dominion over all creation, even judge angels in heavenly realms? Is that not precisely Paul's message as to the purpose of unity within the Body of Christ now? To signal to the heavenlies His will and design is now manifest?  If this is the Glory of God, if man is not to be murdered as casually as some have, or cursed even, how is it the sum total of man's works can be so easily cast into a pig pen as filthy self-glorification? Who can criticize another's servant? Perhaps some day I will need to thank you for your fear and loathing of self-glory, but that day has not passed.

Or is this just a rant by a self-glorified self-glorifier covered in pig dung, stinging from conviction by the Holy Spirit?  It is Wednesday and I still do not know.  

I am grateful to Gem for this little diversion...although I obviously remain somewhat skeptical that self-glorification was the sum total of the Lord's inspired words to Paul.  Blessings.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 4, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Art,  I never heard of a primitive baptist until I met and started to date my wife---in 2005. I was 34. Her south ga. grandparents were primitive baptist. Not very many in north ga.



My South Georgia great grandmother was Primitive Baptist. She married my Holiness Preacher Great Grandpa. Then somehow my aunt & uncles became Baptists.
They go by different names and have offshoots such as Hard Shell Baptists, Anti-Mission Baptists, or Old School Baptists. There are many Churches with similar beliefs that don't call themselves anything other than Baptist.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 4, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Gem.  I'm Baptist also, but I honestly have never heard this line of thinking prior to this thread...as off topic as it has went.  Is this a personal belief based on your own study or does your pastor teach it.


Yes, I believe it. The more I study and the more I grow in grace and the knowledge of Christ, the more I rest in it. Christ is my refuge, my resting place.

Many Pastors teach this. SFD, being Baptist, you will find it in most of the Baptist Confessions. At least the ones I have studied and that are available online.


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## hummerpoo (Dec 4, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> I am grateful to Gem for this little diversion...although I obviously remain somewhat skeptical that self-glorification was the sum total of the Lord's inspired words to Paul.  Blessings.



With my sincerest apologies for cutting up your post, I have only one question; how are the last 50+ posts a diversion from the subject of self-glorification?  I thought that was precisely the subject being discussed.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 4, 2013)

formula1 said:


> Of course, Christ is author and finisher, yet we must have enough faith, however small to choose him, to rake that small step to him. Simple as that, but we'll just agree to disagree. God bless!


This is either an obvious contradiction, or you are agreeing with me. If Christ is the author, then that "enough faith" must originate from Christ.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 4, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> Lest I say something wrong like "invitation" again and get the fire hose.


No fire hose. 

I do not proclaim God's command as an invitation. That was all.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 4, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> With my sincerest apologies for cutting up your post, I have only one question; how are the last 50+ posts a diversion from the subject of self-glorification?  I thought that was precisely the subject being discussed.



HP...no apologies needed, ever. Perhaps you are correct and self glorification really was precisely the sole subject being discussed.  

Or perhaps it included modern hayseed thoughts on the subjective genetive 
reading of the Greek pistis christou.  Or the richness and complexity of Pauline 
scripture?

Or Spirit-led intercession and mercy.  Did I see Ronnie's overt love in and of Christ for others here, including those whose Bibles do not say what Gem's says? Or did I witness Ronnie build himself a tower to God? I surely did not think I observed the latter.

Do hearts break in self glorification for Gem? Is the gift of mercy a mere masquerade ball for Satan? The sincere desire to reconcile dear brothers in the Word, of the Word, to and with Christ, to love one another, as one 
love's self, is all that just vanity and conceit?

Perhaps there was more here.  Much more.

I am an unprofitable servant, however, open to admonishment in truth.  I seek 
only unity within the Body of Christ, as I fervently believe we serve one God, and Christ is Lord.  The Bread of Life of and in whom we all partake.

Maybe I just like to hear myself talk?  Perhaps there is nothing at all here, except to say, Guilty.


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## SemperFiDawg (Dec 4, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Y'all must be living under a rock if you have never heard of Primitive Baptist and the concept of "total depravity."
> Under this concept a non believer is evil. sin has corrupted his body. He can't do anything good. He doesn't possess a desire for Christ. He can't believe, repent, ask, seek, much less have any faith to come to Jesus.
> It's really not a new concept even for Baptist.



Art I'm familiar with the term "Total Depravity" , but I don't take it to the extreme of negating consciousness, cognition and free will.  In other words , I think a person could hear the Gospel, understand its message and make a conscious decision to accept it.  From what I understand of what is being discussed here, understanding (consciousness and cognition) and accepting (free will) are emphatically denied by the extreme interpretation.  I take "total depravity" to mean simply that man is inherently evil (dead in his sin) and therefore can do nothing to justify himself worthy before a Holy God.


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## SemperFiDawg (Dec 4, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Yes, I believe it. The more I study and the more I grow in grace and the knowledge of Christ, the more I rest in it. Christ is my refuge, my resting place.
> 
> Many Pastors teach this. SFD, being Baptist, you will find it in most of the Baptist Confessions. At least the ones I have studied and that are available online.



Thanks Gem.  I will look further into it.


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## hummerpoo (Dec 4, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> HP...no apologies needed, ever. Perhaps you are correct and self glorification really was precisely the sole subject being discussed.
> 
> Or perhaps it included modern hayseed thoughts on the subjective genetive
> reading of the Greek pistis christou.  Or the richness and complexity of Pauline
> ...



If there is a significant difference in the effect of the subjective genitive or objective genitive reading (as I barely understand, if at all), I fail to perceive it.  The question at hand is the source of good, faith being good.  Faith of Christ in the believer or the believer’s faith in Christ from Christ alone is not the distinction being put forth above.

Does not scripture indicate the unity of the Body of Christ is in love.  What is the source of the love that unites?  Surely the source of that love is the same as the source of that faith which is good.

When the Corinthians squabbled over the source of their beliefs, Paul ask them “7.  For who regards you as superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?” (1 Cor. 4:7).  I understand Gem to clearly declare what and from whom he received.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 4, 2013)

Romans 10:17
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


John 20:30–31 
30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. 

*I'm reminded of God's response to Cornelius' prayer, and how Peter came and taught Cornelius and those at his house.

*I'm also reminded of Philip being rushed out into the desert to carry what the man in the chariot needed.

*I'm also reminded of Nick, in John 3, who came at night.  I wonder if he ever believed?


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## M80 (Dec 4, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Romans 10:17
> 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
> 
> 
> ...



That's good Bro. Ronnie, I like it a lot.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 4, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Art I'm familiar with the term "Total Depravity" , but I don't take it to the extreme of negating consciousness, cognition and free will.  In other words , I think a person could hear the Gospel, understand its message and make a conscious decision to accept it.  From what I understand of what is being discussed here, understanding (consciousness and cognition) and accepting (free will) are emphatically denied by the extreme interpretation.  I take "total depravity" to mean simply that man is inherently evil (dead in his sin) and therefore can do nothing to justify himself worthy before a Holy God.



So as you believe it, a man is capable of becoming "good soil" by himself in the parable of the Sower? Does he at least need a little shove, possibly being 90% depraved?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 4, 2013)

I do believe in free will as there are so many verses to show it. I'm always going back and forth in my head and I can see Gem's point too even as related to depravity. Many verses for predestination, election, and depravity too.
We keep saying it's all God or it's all Grace but then we add other requirements such as if we as humans must do something. It's almost like we say it both ways. It's all from God but we must do something. Well how can a poor lost soul do something? If this poor lost soul can do something, anything whatsoever towards his salvation, why in the world does he need God or Jesus? If I can do part of it on my own, why can't I do all of it? What part of it is mine and what part of it is Jesus'? I can see this logic, I don't follow it but I can see it. I can't discount it as hogwash.
Then if we look at all of the Bible stories where God has orchestrated what appears to be everything from Adam, Noah, Moses, The Old Testament, The hardening of the Jew's hearts, etc.
Why did God do all of that but suddenly stop being in TOTAL control? If Pharaoh didn't have a choice to let Moses' people go, why do I have a choice to let my family go to Church? When was this free will granted to us? Who was the first man to have free will?
If God is the author & finisher, then I would have to assume he gets to write everything in between.
But then I read God is no respecter of Man. 
I guess that's why I believe in "limited free will." I just don't understand what choices are God's, mine, Satan's, or just plain old randomness.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 4, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Romans 10:17
> 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.



So the Word of God being the Holy Spirit, where does faith come?

Now the argument would be if this lost person who heard or read the Word of God(Holy Spirit), now has the choice to act on this faith. Lost person, 90% depraved, has just heard the word. He has just been given his faith or measure of faith. 10% in my scenario. 
Somehow he is in somewhat of a special transition between being a lost totally depraved person and a saved person. He is in salvation limbo. He could go either way.
The decision is totally or partially up to this person? He gets to decide? I believe he does. But then I believe he gets to decide when he dies. I believe he gets to input how he lives. If he doesn't then he doesn't get to decide if he wants Salvation. You can't give him some control over his life if you can't give him some control over his death & salvation. Deep stuff, huh?


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## BT Charlie (Dec 4, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> If there is a significant difference in the effect of the subjective genitive or objective genitive reading (as I barely understand, if at all), I fail to perceive it.  The question at hand is the source of good, faith being good.  Faith of Christ in the believer or the believer’s faith in Christ from Christ alone is not the distinction being put forth above.
> 
> Does not scripture indicate the unity of the Body of Christ is in love.  What is the source of the love that unites?  Surely the source of that love is the same as the source of that faith which is good.
> 
> ...



I hear and receive Gem doing the same.

I also hear and receive hearts breaking, among brothers, united in love, as they too clearly declare what and from whom they received.  The faith they proclaim also comes from Christ.

They all eat from the single Bread of Life.  Thus the richness and complexity of 
Pauline scripture on this point.  I believe this is a discussion purposed for 
us before the foundation of the earth... Dim reflections from polished bronze....

But must this be a zero sum contest, of man, not Christ, because the notions are mutually exclusive, this Faith of Christ vs. Faith in Christ? What if God reveals more to us now? Is that possible for old dogs to learn new nuances in the original Word, or must rigid doctrine made by man control, divide, for man's fear (pride) of perishing?

The Body of Christ, each part, has a divine role to play.

As I was face down on a dirt road one night, I heard myself say something close to "The Maker of Men does not need you." That very message nearly sent a bullet through my brain.  It is a voice I won't forget, and it emanated straight 
from the pit of he77.  "You see, I've always loved you," replaced that narrative
 of death in God's perfect timing.  It was in and of Christ, that narrative.

I didn't know on my own road, face down, blind in my own tears and vomit, what Paul let said let alone the different views of what people think he meant in writing the verses relied upon by Gem and now you.  

Through only the grace of God and mercy and intercession of Christ and the Holy Spirit, my testimony now is Christ is Lord.  I had nothing to do with my salvation and do not purpose to boast on myself with these unflattering details.  

It is indeed vexing to hear others say personal belief and faith in Jesus Christ is evil, particularly when one's heart overflows with love and gratitude to Christ for salvation.  Evil does not love, declare Christ lord and savior, or testify it was once blind but now sees.

Moreover, Gem's declaration does not answer why Jesus marveled at the 
centurian's faith, or why Jesus said the centurian's faith, not Jesus's faith, saved
the centurion.  I beseech you therefore in the bowels of Christ, as Ronnie and Oliver Cromwell have pleaded, consider it possible you are mistaken.  Battle is at hand. Unity in the Body is at stake.

Nor does Gem's clear view explain, to me, my own role in holstering my sidearm, picking myself up off the road and returning to my young wife and 
child.  Died in Christ, just enough to maintain a pulse and blood pressure, a new creation in and of Christ, dying to sin today in grace.  Yet I stood up then a bipedal primate on this planet with miles to walk, purposed in flaw to walk as 
Christ did, with a cross of my own.

Doctrine bullies proceed at their own peril to remove Christ from the victory of this testimony and suggest it is satanic evil, based upon an English preposition.  Self glory? Ha.


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## SemperFiDawg (Dec 5, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> So as you believe it, a man is capable of becoming "good soil" by himself in the parable of the Sower? Does he at least need a little shove, possibly being 90% depraved?



No.  That's not what was said nor implied.


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## Israel (Dec 5, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> So...   you go for the KJV at Galatians 2:20; Romans 3:21-22; Philippians 3:7-9; and Galatians 3:22,23, eh?
> 
> I have spent much time praying and studying because of your "God doesn't need me" stuff.  While I trick myself into believing I "get" that I am saved by grace, through faith, and not by works, so none may boast, there's a lot of me swinging off the tree still.  This series of statements has been very beneficial to me, yet I must say I am vexed.  Where you point to Christ's supremacy, you mention not His design, His purpose nor our duties, particularly if led by the Holy Spirit to intercede. Your conclusion suggests inaction is the only course to avoid the sin of self-glorification.  I can't square that with what I sense as Spirit-inspired duty, leaving no choice but to try to offer the Word to a hurting world.
> 
> ...




Probably the stinging from conviction paragraph.

I'm convinced that one sums it up, best.

I never know whether to smite the prophet or "Touch not God's anointed and do him no harm"...

One sounds good, but earns me an encounter with a Lion that leaves me torn. 
I never know when to pray for longer life, and live to see a Manasseh born in those granted years.
As for answering a fool in his folly, I even get that wrong, too...when trying to be "biblical".

Were I left with having to rely upon anything I have read, considered, done, thought, heard, seen, prayed, exercised, sought in my deepest devotions...well...it all just leaves me singing "My Way" at the door of all that is real.

Just a little knock, against myself...is all.

Is that a crack of light I see?
Oh, my...what have I opened to?


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## hummerpoo (Dec 5, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> I hear and receive Gem doing the same.
> 
> I also hear and receive hearts breaking, among brothers, united in love, as they too clearly declare what and from whom they received.  The faith they proclaim also comes from Christ.
> 
> ...



Got to get to work, just a quick point or two.

As to the highlighted; every part of creation has a divine role to play.  I once said that if I have a choice in this life it is whether God will be glorified by my righteousness or my unrighteousness.  That was a long time ago, and I would no longer say that, I would now say that everything in creation will glorify God.  There is a quote “If there is one errant atom in the universe, then God is not sovereign.”

You have correctly spoken of unity, and the lack thereof.  With a small correction: I do not rely, nor do I believe that Gem “relies” upon the verses that you refer to, but I understand what Gem says about them and do not disagree with his conclusion.  The result is that when I read “If our will consents, so that we yield to the drawing, we will come to Christ” it stirs unwanted emotions bordering on pain.  It comes across as an insult to the One I worship, even with full knowledge that is not the intent.  It is a challenge to subdue the flesh.  I pray that is not because I must accept that God’s drawing is not effectual.

In an effort toward further understanding let me say that when I encounter the thought that “The Maker of Men does not need you” it rings of truth and brings great joy.  He does not need me…but here I stand…before Him in awe of the fact that He allows me to stand here.

I’m late.


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## formula1 (Dec 5, 2013)

*Re:*



gemcgrew said:


> This is either an obvious contradiction, or you are agreeing with me. If Christ is the author, then that "enough faith" must originate from Christ.



Not at all! Enough faith is a response from the clay that says yes to the potter! 

Hebrews 12:1-2 is the conclusion of the whole of Hebrews 11.  You can't understand this one without the rest of the story.

And BTW, how does one "Run the race" or "Look to Jesus"? 

And isn't faith without works a dead faith?

James 2
4 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

And Jesus said...
John 9:4 
We must work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day; night is coming, when no one can work.

And he defined the work...
John 6
28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

And how does one believe without faith?

Romans 10
9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

And again,

How can you confess, believe, or call without faith in the One your are confessing to, believing in, or calling upon?

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

If faith is assurance, how can you be assured without faith? And can you be convicted of things not seen if your faith is not your own?

You can say 'God does it all' but you can't even say that without faith in the one who does it all.  And it's personal, intimate and requires something from you! 

Do you suppose Abraham would have left his homeland by the call of God without faith in the one who called?

Romans 4
What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness

God will keep His promises, indeed! But not if you don't believe them! And that takes faith, your faith that He will complete it! And your faith leads to righteousness!

I appreciate the opportunity to share with you my thoughts and what I believe to be the thoughts of the Holy Spirit on the matter.  I also appreciate your devotion to scripture and your consistancy of your own viewpoint. Your viewpoint is yours and I do accept you as a brother, but I cannot accept your viewpoint as truth. But God has a way of advancing the Gospel in spite of us or what we believe, doesn't HE.  God bless you in Christ!


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## gemcgrew (Dec 5, 2013)

formula1 said:


> God will keep His promises, indeed! But not if you don't believe them!


F1, thank you for your thoughts but I see where the embracing of contradiction leads, as in the above statement.

All is well.


----------



## formula1 (Dec 5, 2013)

*Re:*



gemcgrew said:


> F1, thank you for your thoughts but I see where the embracing of contradiction leads, as in the above statement.
> 
> All is well.



Very well then!  May God bless you and your family richly during this Christmas season and everyday!


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## SemperFiDawg (Dec 5, 2013)

Gem I'm still trying to gain some traction in fully understanding your stance.  May I ask you a few questions?  If so, 

1) Do you believe personal, individual faith plays any role in ones salvation?

2). Why?


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 5, 2013)

If a person dies and does not go to heaven, whatever you want to call it, separation from God, H E double hockey sticks, is this a punishment for some action or inaction of the person?

If so, what action or inaction?

If not, why an eternal punishment?


----------



## formula1 (Dec 5, 2013)

*Re:*



HawgJawl said:


> If a person dies and does not go to heaven, whatever you want to call it, separation from God, H E double hockey sticks, is this a punishment for some action or inaction of the person?
> 
> If so, what action or inaction?
> 
> If not, why an eternal punishment?



John 3
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through Him. 18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 5, 2013)

formula1 said:


> John 3
> 16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through Him. 18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.



Do you interpret that scripture to say that the person has a choice and that the reward or punishment is a direct consequence of the person's action or inaction?

If so, then the "believes" part must come from the person.


----------



## formula1 (Dec 5, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Do you interpret that scripture to say that the person has a choice and that the reward or punishment is a direct consequence of the person's action or inaction?
> 
> If so, then the "believes" part must come from the person.



Gotta leave for a Christmas luncheon but one quick answer:

All men are already condemned, it is only through belief (trust) in Christ that eternal life is granted. The person must believe.  God takes take of the rest!  God bless!


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## HawgJawl (Dec 5, 2013)

gem,

How does that fit with your position?

The belief in Christ is a good thing, but it must come from the lost person.


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## 1222DANO (Dec 5, 2013)

simply put,,

why does the bird fly?
does it fly because it has wings? wings are no good without faith..
so don't this bird have to have faith in itself to fly... 

the only reason a man doesn't fly in his own right is because lack of faith.. if he chooses not to have faith then he can lie on the ground and be eatin up by a beast ''or himself whichever...


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## gemcgrew (Dec 5, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Gem I'm still trying to gain some traction in fully understanding your stance.  May I ask you a few questions?  If so,
> 
> 1) Do you believe personal, individual faith plays any role in ones salvation?
> 
> 2). Why?


I am going to PM you so that we can determine the best way of furthering the discussion. I do not want us to be talking past each other.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 5, 2013)

28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

Whose  work are we talking about here? See how confusing it becomes. Earlier when I read it I thought it was talking about my work to believe. I just read it again and it said God's work or the work of God.

This is God’s work (Greek genitive “work of God”), in order that (this is the Greek hina clause), “you” believe. The term “believe” in this passage is present, active, subjunctive, second person, plural. God Himself is Sovereignly working. But, what does God’s work have as its purpose? 

John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God;


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 5, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> gem,
> 
> How does that fit with your position?
> 
> The belief in Christ is a good thing, but it must come from the lost person.


Hawg, I do not want to go down that road at the moment. If one is an unbeliever, is not conversion required in order to believe? Seeing conversion as a necessary prior, is this the work of man or of God?

"For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Dec 5, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> I am going to PM you so that we can determine the best way of furthering the discussion. I do not want us to be talking past each other.



Sounds good


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Dec 5, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> If a person dies and does not go to heaven, whatever you want to call it, separation from God, H E double hockey sticks, is this a punishment for some action or inaction of the person?
> 
> If so, what action or inaction?
> 
> If not, why an eternal punishment?



To see it as punishment is a red herring.   It's not a punishment at all.  The person in he11 will have gotten exactly what they wanted, eternal separation from the wellspring as well as the outflow of all that is good.

To quote C.S. Lewis:

 “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in he11, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no he11.  No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened. ”


----------



## barryl (Dec 5, 2013)

Hyper Calvinist "TULIP" There are threads earlier this year.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 5, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> To see it as punishment is a red herring.   It's not a punishment at all.  The person in he11 will have gotten exactly what they wanted, eternal separation from the wellspring as well as the outflow of all that is good.
> 
> To quote C.S. Lewis:
> 
> “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in he11, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no he11.  No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened. ”



That doesn't explain the people in he11 who never heard the word.


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 5, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> All that are in he11, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no he11.  No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened. ”



The question is:
How is it possible for a person to be able to "choose" he11 but not be able to "choose" heaven?  If heaven is predestined and does not depend upon any action from the lost person, there is no choice made either way.

Whether you want to view he11 as a punishment or you want to view heaven as a reward, it should be a result of some decision made by the person.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Dec 5, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> The question is:
> How is it possible for a person to be able to "choose" he11 but not be able to "choose" heaven?  If heaven is predestined and does not depend upon any action from the lost person, there is no choice made either way.
> 
> Whether you want to view he11 as a punishment or you want to view heaven as a reward, it should be a result of some decision made by the person.



Sorry Hawg.  I can't answer that.  I don't believe in predestination for a number of reasons.  In my opinion it's not scriptural and contradicts common sense not to mention free will.  Free will negates your supposition regarding punishment/reward and supports your last point.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 5, 2013)

Jesus said "Behold! I stand at the door and knock; if any one hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him, and will dine with him, and he with me" (Revelation 3:20). 

Can everyone hear Jesus' voice? Can everyone hear his knock?
Non believers aren't completely deaf and blind I don't believe.

When are we "born again"? Before Jesus knocks or when we hear and answer the knock, when we invite Jesus in.
I believe it's when we invite Jesus in. Maybe he does give us something to help us see and hear, to make the transition.
If it's not anything from us then I can't or don't understand rewards and punishment either. If I don't have any choice then I can't understand love, faith, or hope.

The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price. (Revelation 22:17)

Jesus was constantly saying come, see, hear, listen, ask, seek, follow, & obey. I don't think he was talking only to believers.


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## SemperFiDawg (Dec 5, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> That doesn't explain the people in he11 who never heard the word.



Art from my understanding general revelation as spoken of in Romans 1:18-23 addresses those you speak of.  As Paul notes, none are without sin.  Again CS Lewis makes a very poignant point when he says that 'we know that all are saved through Christ, we don't know all are saved by knowing Christ'.  Moses and Elijah were both at the transfiguration yet they never heard "the word".   They were held accountable for how they responded to what they DID know and understand.  Almost all children and most adults know very little doctrine at the point they are saved, yet they are saved based on their responding to what they DO understand.  It's my opinion that God saves us based on our accepting what we do know.  In other words he saves us in spite of our ignorance.  Salvation is and always has been based on our hearts response and not our intellect and that holds true for everyone.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 5, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I don't believe in predestination for a number of reasons.


There is no salvation without predestination.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 5, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Art from my understanding general revelation as spoken of in Romans 1:18-23 addresses those you speak of.  As Paul notes, none are without sin.  Again CS Lewis makes a very poignant point when he says that 'we know that all are saved through Christ, we don't know all are saved by knowing Christ'.  Moses and Elijah were both at the transfiguration yet they never heard "the word".   They were held accountable for how they responded to what they DID know and understand.  Almost all children and most adults know very little doctrine at the point they are saved, yet they are saved based on their responding to what they DO understand.  It's my opinion that God saves us based on our accepting what we do know.  In other words he saves us in spite of our ignorance.  Salvation is and always has been based on our hearts response and not our intellect and that holds true for everyone.



Maybe everyone will get a chance to hear & see. I know there are Hindus and Muslims that are blinded by being raised in the wrong religion. Maybe God can give them a little sight and remove their deafness before assigning them to He!!. Generations & Nations all going to He!! because they are deaf & blind don't look too good.
I don't understand how that all goes down. Maybe they will get a chance during the the premillennial second coming of Jesus.

I was trying to recall a verse where Jesus said it was better to have never heard the Word than to have heard it and not _______.  Anyone know what verse I'm looking for?


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## gemcgrew (Dec 5, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Jesus was constantly saying come, see, hear, listen, ask, seek, follow, & obey. I don't think he was talking only to believers.


"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." (John 10:27-28)

Sheep. Not goats. (Matthew 25:31-46)


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 5, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." (John 10:27-28)
> 
> Sheep. Not goats. (Matthew 25:31-46)



Can goats become Sheep or tares Wheat?

(sounds like a thread starter)


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## gemcgrew (Dec 5, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Can goats become Sheep or tares Wheat?
> 
> (sounds like a thread starter)


What do you think?


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Dec 5, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> There is no salvation without predestination.



I should have specified that it is unconditional predestination that I can't accept.  The good news is that our salvation doesn't depend on who's correct.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Dec 5, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe everyone will get a chance to hear & see. I know there are Hindus and Muslims that are blinded by being raised in the wrong religion. Maybe God can give them a little sight and remove their deafness before assigning them to He!!. Generations & Nations all going to He!! because they are deaf & blind don't look too good.



Again I think Romans 1 covers that.




Artfuldodger said:


> I don't understand how that all goes down. Maybe they will get a chance during the the premillennial second coming of Jesus.



How?


----------



## M80 (Dec 5, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Again I think Romans 1 covers that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



By not receiving the mark of the beast


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 5, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I should have specified that it is unconditional predestination that I can't accept.  The good news is that our salvation doesn't depend on who's correct.



There was recently a Cessationist poster on this forum that said you must believe in free will otherwise you didn't except Jesus as your Savior. He believed it was something "you" must do. 
I didn't and don't care to make that call.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 5, 2013)

mwilliams80 said:


> By not receiving the mark of the beast



After Jesus Christ has ruled on this earth for 1,000 years, there will be a resurrection to physical life of the vast majority of all people who have ever lived. After these people have had an opportunity to live a physical life, if they become converted, they too will receive eternal life. Those who reject God's offer of salvation will reap eternal death.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 5, 2013)

Israel said:


> Probably the stinging from conviction paragraph.
> 
> I'm convinced that one sums it up, best.
> 
> ...




Lazarus, come out. 

 The  dead respond to the Word of Life, not to other dead.

"No. You don't need me, for I dare know and declare what You need.  In addition, I know my responding in any way would really just be about me.  I know what you're really 
getting at, because I ... ." 

Sorry, I see no intelligent life on that intellectual planet.

"Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, ton offer your bodies (action needed) as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God-- this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.  Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is -- his good, pleasing and perfect will.

"For by grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment in accordance with 
the measure of faith God has given you.  Just as each of us  has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.  We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in 
proportion to his faith.  IF IT IS SERVING, LET HIM SERVE; if it is teaching, let him teach; IF IT IS ENCOURAGING, LET HIM ENCOURAGE; if it is contributing to the needs of others, LET HIM GIVE GENEROUSLY; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it 
cheerfully.  Romans 12:1-8 (NIV).

Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior.  The only righteousness in men is His.  I am saved, by grace, not for who I am but because of what He did.  Christ may need nothing as He ministers at then right hand of God in Heaven, but He has instructed me to pick up my cross, daily, and follow Him.

Sit in the tomb if you will.  He'll talk to you there, or wherever, no doubt.

I don't see my coordinates on any map here. The enemy appears inside this temporary perimeter, in and among you and me.  Willie Pete marks the target at me feet, which will be plain enough to see from above.  I am standing naked, looking up, asking for the final run.  

If I do not see you after the fire comes, perhaps I will see you later. Such is hope in and of Christ.


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## hummerpoo (Dec 5, 2013)

It’s been a tough one, wore me out, and it didn’t get done.  Funny, the effect seemed different forty years ago; and I’m sure the recovery time was shorter.  While Sweety is working on supper I reread your post and I’m going to try to address what are possibly misunderstandings …and maybe not.  Obviously, I will speak only for myself.



BT Charlie said:


> I hear and receive Gem doing the same.
> 
> I also hear and receive hearts breaking, among brothers, united in love, as they too clearly declare what and from whom they received.  The faith they proclaim also comes from Christ.
> 
> ...



We agree on this.  The earliest record of the root, of which I am aware, is Augustine and Pelagious…but when we are face to Face.



BT Charlie said:


> But must this be a zero sum contest, of man, not Christ, because the notions are mutually exclusive, this Faith of Christ vs. Faith in Christ? What if God reveals more to us now?.



I don’t have a direct answer to the “zero sum” question.  I know that some of what is revealed in this and similar discussions frightens me more than I can express (no details will follow).  I can remember the first time I was studying scripture and what I learned brought the response “I wish it didn’t say that”.  I have since decided that if that isn’t our response, at least occasionally, we probably aren’t open to scripture and Spirit.  That said, it is my fervent hope that 1700 odd years of passionate striving, by men of good will, will have a positive outcome in the view of men.  I have no doubt about the outcome from God’s perspective.

Unlike many, I see no reason to believe that God’s revelation is complete.  It’s a maybe yes, maybe no, as far as I can tell.




BT Charlie said:


> Is that possible for old dogs to learn new nuances in the original Word, or must rigid doctrine made by man control, divide, for man's fear (pride) of perishing?
> 
> The Body of Christ, each part, has a divine role to play.
> 
> ...



If I was not clear before, the fact that God does not need us, and yet so clearly reaches out to, and cares for, us is proof of His love.  The experience you describe, is a great example.



BT Charlie said:


> I didn't know on my own road, face down, blind in my own tears and vomit, what Paul let said let alone the different views of what people think he meant in writing the verses relied upon by Gem and now you.
> 
> Through only the grace of God and mercy and intercession of Christ and the Holy Spirit, my testimony now is Christ is Lord.  I had nothing to do with my salvation and do not purpose to boast on myself with these unflattering details.
> 
> It is indeed vexing to hear others say personal belief and faith in Jesus Christ is evil, particularly when one's heart overflows with love and gratitude to Christ for salvation. .



I assumed this morning that when you say “verses relied upon” you are referring to Gal. 2:20 etc.; I will continue that assumption.  Those scriptures are a very small, and in my view not a significant part of the picture.  What is at the base of the disagreement which has boiled over here, again in my opinion, is the question of monergistic vs. synergistic regeneration: does God alone produce the “new man”, the changed heart, or is that achieved by God with some kind of input from the man who is changed.  The word salvation is problematic when really digging into this question, at least for me, because I never know what to think someone means when they say “salvation”, even in scripture it is sometimes difficult to be sure, and I do not propose that this is the venue for that discussion.

I did not get the idea that anyone had said (I said I … not knowing what is or was in anyone’s heart as they sit punching keys) “faith in Jesus Christ is evil”.  I did think (again the I) that I heard it said that if one does not profess faith “in” Christ, within the bounds of a specific formula, that they had no favor with God.  Now that breaks my heart.

I am very hesitant, and yet compelled to attempt to speak of faith “of” Jesus Christ.  But here goes.  To profess faith of Christ is to say that I am incapable of the high standard necessary to please God.  However, Jesus Christ is capable and it is from him that I have received that which is necessary to please God.  It is not mine, it is His.  To claim otherwise is to usurp the glory which is not ours.  I assume that I have no disagreement to this point.  The question comes when it is said that we must consent, or accept, or anything else when God has chosen to regenerate an un-regenerate heart.  For one who reads scripture and listens to the Spirit and sees and hears that God alone, from before creation, determined that choice the input from non-regenerate man is an impossibility.

I understand that you may not agree with what I and others believe.  I would ask that you not deny that the overwhelming majority of the Reformers believed this way, that the great and revered confessions of the 16th and 17th centuries state this view, and that many of the most quoted pastors and evangelist of the 18th and 19th centuries believed this view, and that many of the respected evangelical theologians of the 20th century and the present day are declared monergists.



BT Charlie said:


> Evil does not love, declare Christ lord and savior, or testify it was once blind but now sees.
> 
> Moreover, Gem's declaration does not answer why Jesus marveled at the
> centurian's faith, or why Jesus said the centurian's faith, not Jesus's faith, saved
> ...


With you forbearance, and believing that we are long way from discussion of specific incidents of salvation in scripture I will forgo a discussion of your last paragraph.  And candidly, I ain’t got it in me.

Peace, Love, and bunches of Joy


----------



## Ronnie T (Dec 5, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." (John 10:27-28)
> 
> Sheep. Not goats. (Matthew 25:31-46)



That verse doesn't speak to the subject of predestination at all.  That speaks to the relationship between teacher/savior and disciple.


----------



## BT Charlie (Dec 5, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> Got to get to work, just a quick point or two.
> 
> As to the highlighted; every part of creation has a divine role to play.  I once said that if I have a choice in this life it is whether God will be glorified by my righteousness or my unrighteousness.  That was a long time ago, and I would no longer say that, I would now say that everything in creation will glorify God.  There is a quote “If there is one errant atom in the universe, then God is not sovereign.”
> 
> ...



HP, thank you for the time to write this.  I perceive Gem and you and others as saved in and of Christ.  I have not thought at all, and thus regret your pain, at the human logical conclusions that relate to the concept of ineffectual drawing.  

I share joy in resting in the Lord as well.  I appreciated the chapters of Job, cited by you elsewhere.  I too am comforted by the truth that God's ways are above our ways.  

I humbly testify I seek no self glory, whether anyone thinks it true or not. I attest that Christ is Lord, that my salvation is in/of Christ, and rebuke any man who says such testimony is evil and from Satan.

My faith and hope rests in our Lord, who indeed knows the hearts of men.  If His glory and righteousness require Him to send me straight to the pit of he77 for deception and self glorification, then must I go. For all truth, all glory, all righteousness are His alone, whether I get it or not. The same for each of us.


----------



## Israel (Dec 5, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> Lazarus, come out.
> 
> The  dead respond to the Word of Life, not to other dead.
> 
> ...



yup.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 5, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> That verse doesn't speak to the subject of predestination at all.  That speaks to the relationship between teacher/savior and disciple.


I wasn't addressing predestination. Don't be so jumpy.


----------



## BT Charlie (Dec 6, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> It’s been a tough one, wore me out, and it didn’t get done.  Funny, the effect seemed different forty years ago; and I’m sure the recovery time was shorter.  While Sweety is working on supper I reread your post and I’m going to try to address what are possibly misunderstandings …and maybe not.  Obviously, I will speak only for myself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Many thanks for this, HP.  Today was a tough day all around.  I am quite encouraged by your views and instruction.

Truth = man' salvation is in, from, and of Jesus Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection.

Truth = from the fall, man -- the glory of God -- has been in enmity in and to the Maker of Men.  Evil cannot save evil.  Man, the enemy of God, fell short of the glory of God and could of and in or from himself do nothing to reconcile himself to God.

God Himself only could save man.  He humbled Himself to become man, The Lamb of God, the Living Word, Jesus Christ, purposed before the foundations of earth to save us from eternal he77, through his crucifixion and resurrection.

So I think we're pretty much lined up on original sin, man's helplessness to save himself, and our need of Jesus Christ genuinely in our life for salvation.  In fact, if forumites drilled down no further, a lot of us might hold hands in unity here?

What seemed to divide us was the import assigned by folks over Paul's references to the "faith of Christ."  One writer, whom I esteem highly and believe is obviously saved in Christ, said basically that the faith that saves is not man's faith in Christ, but Christ's faith in man's salvation.  That was what was "new" to many.  Others seemed to agree generally with the view of salvation = Christ's faith in a God.

So, yes, the English preposition used in the various translations of Paul's cited verses fueled the debate/discussion.   

In addition to the views of faith "of Christ" we then saw at least three contra views based on faith"in Christ":  

Faith in Christ = a necessary human response to or results somehow from salvation by, in, of, through Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit.  Man is saved by grace, through faith in Christ (not works) so none may boast.

I do get man's undeserving position here, God's immense first love of us, and the incredible mercy and grace freely gifted to us in Christ.  So I can begin to readily understand doctrine opposing elevation of man's role in salvation to = having been a partner, a co-God, saving himself through some work.

But when you start to pull all the levers, the prepositions cause our disunity.  Some see "faith of Christ" as conflicting with better interpretations; others who've studied Paul's original texts remain unconvinced, preferring the KJV.  My concern is a faith of Christ = salvation eliminates man's accountability for unbelief.  It's a head concept, not a heart concept.  

This is perhaps the mischief:  I do not require personal faith for salvation because I am depraved and evil, with a heart of stone.  If I testified my heart was changed by the Holy Spirit, that = self glorification.  I don't have to say the Holy Spirit softened my heart so I could receive the Word 
of Life, but I instead claim the faith of Christ because I repented and was baptized as instructed.

I do understand your pain in man claiming a role in his salvation. But faith in Christ is an active human condition on man's side of the equation, so the mischief arises from such.

I am comforted by the Word, sometimes startled and terrified as well.  But whether I get it or not, one thing about it, the Word is the eternal truth.  God's ways are above mine, and I never claimed to know entirely what He does or does not need of us.  I agree with you His love of, for and in us is undeserved, overpowering and incomprehensible.  Praise God!

My last paragraphs I regret.  Those were me for sure in anger. Sin is never helpful.  The zero sum contest arises for me between the borrow pits of the two doctrines out on the dirt road.  The contest requires a winner and loser as framed: Gem is either right, or Formula, Ronnie, etc. are right. Both sides cannot be right, unless we talk that through.

Like Lazarus, I feel like I was dead and Christ spoke life into me.  I wonder if it is really blasphemy, evil, for me to say once Christ through the Holy Spirit interceded, I literally put down my weapon and began walking the best way I knew how.  I don't see how once Christ spoke "come out" to Lazarus he remained depraved, an enemy of God.  Likewise, I believe walking out in Christ on that night for me was welcome evidence of a new creature alive and reconciled to a God.

Peace to you, HP.


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## Israel (Dec 6, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> Many thanks for this, HP.  Today was a tough day all around.  I am quite encouraged by your views and instruction.
> 
> Truth = man' salvation is in, from, and of Jesus Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection.
> 
> ...



Has anyone said that?


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## hummerpoo (Dec 6, 2013)

Thanks for you kind consideration of my thoughts.
Like Brother Israel, I have some "who said that" questions on first reading.  Perhaps later, I may figure it out on my own.


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## SemperFiDawg (Dec 6, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> After Jesus Christ has ruled on this earth for 1,000 years, there will be a resurrection to physical life of the vast majority of all people who have ever lived. After these people have had an opportunity to live a physical life, if they become converted, they too will receive eternal life. Those who reject God's offer of salvation will reap eternal death.



Art where did you get that from? 

Matthew 25:31-46
English Standard Version (ESV)
The Final Judgment

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,[a] you did it to me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


I find no evidence that at the Final Judgement anyone will get a chance of a 're-do'.


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## formula1 (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re:*



BT Charlie said:


> The contest requires a winner and loser as framed: Gem is either right, or Formula, Ronnie, etc. are right. Both sides cannot be right, unless we talk that through.



For the record, I personally don't believe there is necessarily a winner or a loser on this point from the human perspective.  I believe those who do not believe as I do on this point of human doctrine still belong to Christ insofar as what I have read from each one of you. Unfortunately, on this forum I cannot see your life or the fruits of each one's relationship with Christ through words and positions written any more than you can see mine. If I could, I am sure that most, if not all, bear true fruit for Christ in their daily walk.

Also, for the record, I receive no personal glory for believing and trusting God.  It simply means I quit my way and turned to God's way and now my life is 'in Him'. Can a man receive glory for trusting an unseen Savior with his life? I testify of my conversion, my experiences, my encounter with a Holy God, His Only Son and His Holy Spirit only for His glory and to spread His Gospel and His Hope to others.   I simply could not be silent!! Why would anyone?

All of us need to understand that love for our brothers matters far more to God than the doctrine of men.  So, brothers, let us love one another as is our command.  This passage given is for us all to stand in the front of a mirror and reflect upon.  I have and I hope my brothers will also perform a self-examination.  If my own position offends you, please forgive me.  What ever you think of me is useless. What you view of Christ will last! Love you all in Christ!!!

1 John 4
15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. 19 We love because he first loved us. 20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 6, 2013)

Israel said:


> Has anyone said that?



I receive you as saying it, repeatedly. 

Of course you did not say it exactly...plainly...clearly. But have you ever done that?

What else can you possibly mean when you assert that it is faith "of God" that saves, and one's faith "in God" is rotten to the core, self glorification, hiding in the very Word we hold dear.

Why else do you think I write? Why else would hearts break here, man? Am I vexed because I esteem you yet burn in sin response because the Falcons just suck?

It boils down to this.  Gem quoted various Pauline verses in support of his earnestly held belief that the salvation faith referenced comes from Christ, not man.   Ronnie did a double-take, which I noted took only 11 minutes, asking Gem to clarify if Gem truly meant that.  Gem confirmed it is Jesus's faith in our salvation that is conveyed. This is the foundational assertion that launched the discussion on what is the nature of faith in the notion that man's salvation is by grace, through faith, so that none may boast.

I'm going to continue answering your "who said this" question but want to say as I have before:  I respect Gem. As I thought of his construct, I could see much beauty in it. I was not riled up or emotional, but a bit awed at the idea we could claim Christ's own faith in us? The lawyer in me shouted, "This could be the very loophole I've searched for to relieve me!" Looking down the road of logical extension, if one sought relief from self death on the cross, daily, he could really sin it up around here. God doesn't need me...I can't help...so I can't hurt anything. Nothing I think or believe is relevant to save me, so how can these thoughts that torture me kill me? More on that later. Nevertheless, Gem is completely focused on Christ, which I think is beautiful and is fruit of salvation manifest.  I, and my perception is, others, hear him as saying man's faith was not at all what Paul is referring to in the passages cited.  I also receive Gem as saving salvation in Christ is not possible if the faith referenced by Paul is required by Gem or the rest of us.

I also want to say I esteem Ronnie and fully expected Ronnie to loving correct, admonish, discuss -- whatever appropriate term for love in Christ in this confrontation -- Gem's notion.   Ronnie went straight to the heart of the matter-- which in other words was basically inquiring if Gem actually believed what he said about faith.  Ronnie noted the other Bible translations that quote this Pauline scripture as more commonly understood, at least for a couple centuries, that salvation comes from grace, through man's necessary faith in Christ.

Hearts broke because Gem denied that, though I still was and remain open to the beauty of Christ as seen by Gem. Indeed, I am not convinced yet that the notions are truly mutually exclusive, that one must be right and the other wrong, with one side saved, the other back to deserving he77.  Christ is after all the center of both schools of thought.

Now enter you at the discussion table thus set.  You wrote a classic Israel piece, the gist of which is self glory hides everywhere, everywhere -- and Gem's view of the Pauline verses is correct.  One could know salvation as faith of Christ Himself.  Now that was my take away from all that was long and laid out.

Gem merely said Amen to your post, without further comment from you.  And many posts about all the other verses regarding grace by man's faith in Christ followed.  I have perceived you as co-joined with Gem by his "amen." Which is to say I receive you precisely, steadfastly opposed to person's belief in scripture that obliges man to have faith in Christ, and as supporting Gem's view that instead those who can seen less dimly now see the evil of self and realize it is Christ's faith in our salvation, not our faith in Christ, that is the key to salvation by grace, through this faith thing.  Not our faith, His.

I am not trying to speak for anyone else in saying that's how you were received.  But in context dear friend this debate quickly got Western. It went us v. them, in a very personal way, and it looked like you picked sides, again in a very personal way.

If Job said the Maker of Men does not need me, I didn't see it. He pretty we'll sums up the relative positions of man and God.  In fact, I don't see any scripture anywhere that ever suggests God does not love us, which is another term for need.  You ignored my questions: does the Groom need his bride? Does Christ need the Body of Christ?

I've been transparent that I profess salvation in Christ by grace, through faith.  When I said I had a problem with you seeing self glorification in a core belief that man must have faith in Christ to show fruit of salvation, you communicated to me you were convinced I was stinging in conviction, covered in the pig dung of self glorification.

You are a capable communicator and easily could have avoided such perceptions if those were not what you intended me to receive.  A slip of the lip? Others maybe. Not you.

Naturally, you can attest now that man can be saved by grace, through his faith in Christ, so that none may boast, just as Ronnie, Forumla, SFD,  McWilliams, and others here, and elsewhere, for centuries, have said as scripture first said it.

If you can't do that , I receive you as saying my testimony of my salvation experience is not valid fruit of and from Christ's saving intervention in my life.  Not being such, my testimony must evil, of Satan, mere words steeped in self-glorification.  I also receive Hummerpoo's comment that self glorification was the heart of the last 50 posts, with those who believe in salvation by grace, through man's own faith, as those of the root to which you assert the ax was laid.

This is a personal illustration of why hearts broke here, brother.

Juxtaposition, context, all matter.  You didn't say the precise words, but what you communicated was such, to me.


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## Israel (Dec 6, 2013)

Doc said, just before he died, "this is funny".

"Or is this just a rant by a self-glorified self-glorifier covered in pig dung, stinging from conviction by the Holy Spirit? It is Wednesday and I still do not know." 

I thought you were referencing me...and my post which you quoted. I mistakenly believed you were trying to get "a handle on" something I have not had liberty to share for many, many years. I understood in it were some very provocational things. I interpreted that to be the "rant" referenced. 

Had I thought you were given to rant, I surely did not know it...until now. And not by any inference...but by admission. I still don't receive you as a ranter.

That's why I had such ease in identifying as a pig...among you all, I remain, the least. 
Gee, I just never thought I'd really believe that.
Thanks brother.
I know you love me.
And yes...even "classic Israel"...is pretty funny, too.
And as to the Falcons...


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## BT Charlie (Dec 6, 2013)

Israel said:


> Doc said, just before he died, "this is funny".
> 
> "Or is this just a rant by a self-glorified self-glorifier covered in pig dung, stinging from conviction by the Holy Spirit? It is Wednesday and I still do not know."
> 
> ...




The pig dung thing was my reference to myself.  Your being convinced it was correct was received as such.  

What a waste of time.

If you are saying salvation is by grace, through human faith, so none may boast, let me hear it plain.

Same: if you say salvation is by grace, no human reaction/participation/response possible or required, I am good with that, as long as fruit is recognized in what a follower thus knows and develops as faith in his Lord and Savior.  I do puzzle at the tautology of what to call repentance, baptism and other human acts, like seeking Christ, asking Him into our hearts, and other overt answers to His knock.

But we will collide if you see self glory, always, if one professes to have faith in Christ.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 6, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Art where did you get that from?
> 
> I find no evidence that at the Final Judgement anyone will get a chance of a 're-do'.



It was from a Chruch of God site. I've got a chart of the different "end times" judgements:


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## M80 (Dec 6, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Art where did you get that from?
> 
> Matthew 25:31-46
> English Standard Version (ESV)
> ...



Amen


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## BT Charlie (Dec 6, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> Thanks for you kind consideration of my thoughts.
> Like Brother Israel, I have some "who said that" questions on first reading.  Perhaps later, I may figure it out on my own.



HP, thanks for focusing on the nub of what is killing me.

Israel and I have a hilarious miscommunication going.  I've wasted much time entirely focused on this topic.

Of all I know, that Christ intervened in my life is utterly, completely true.  Not because I know it, or say it, or believe it. Because it happened. "See, I have always loved you." Not for my self glory do I attest...but solely to His. It would be sin to fail to testify to what occurred.

Much was at stake in this thread, to me, on the very events of my new life in Christ decades ago.

In my own enmity toward God, in the natural conclusion of such a condition, the enemy had me at the brink of human weakness.  Christ proved eternally superior, and from that moment I've counted His victory as my own, beginning with whatever you want to call His intercession that had me lower the weapon from within my own mouth, and walk home.

You saw 50 some posts prior to my personal illustration as all dealing with self glory.  I see and intend no self glory in my faith in Christ.

I say the dead respond to Christ per God's design.  Lazarus come out.  One errs if he assigns or imputes self glory to Lazarus because he did so, IMO.  As I walked out, my own heart was changed.  More precisely, because my heart was changed, I lived and walked out that night, into day.

If all that was at stake in the 50 prior posts was self glory, then how was not Lazarus evil by humanly playing a role in living?

Nobody is saying -- uh, at least I am not saying -- that Lazarus did a thing to bring himself back to life.  To Christ all the Glory forever.

Fear and trembling. I smell like pig dung. Acrid sweat.

I believe you and Israel love Christ, and have much insight to offer.  I respect you and have benefited greatly from what you've said here.

I do believe one is obligated to assist, to admonish, to avoid participation in corporal sin, and that while satan prowls like a lion to devour, and self-glorification is one means of the father of lies' deceit, we cannot content ourselves in not acting based on the idea that we have no 
such obligation since God is big, we are small, and He doesn't need us.   Heed His call, despite the risk of a multitude of foreseeable human sin inevitably to occur.

I think we're getting some where.  I think I have to go back and revisit Adolph Hitler.  It's a call...


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## BT Charlie (Dec 6, 2013)

formula1 said:


> For the record, I personally don't believe there is necessarily a winner or a loser on this point from the human perspective.  I believe those who do not believe as I do on this point of human doctrine still belong to Christ insofar as what I have read from each one of you. Unfortunately, on this forum I cannot see your life or the fruits of each one's relationship with Christ through words and positions written any more than you can see mine. If I could, I am sure that most, if not all, bear true fruit for Christ in their daily walk.
> 
> Also, for the record, I receive no personal glory for believing and trusting God.  It simply means I quit my way and turned to God's way and now my life is 'in Him'. Can a man receive glory for trusting an unseen Savior with his life? I testify of my conversion, my experiences, my encounter with a Holy God, His Only Son and His Holy Spirit only for His glory and to spread His Gospel and His Hope to others.   I simply could not be silent!! Why would anyone?
> 
> ...



Thanks for talking this through.  My desire was consensus on salvation. I apologize for mischaracterizing what I perceive as a result of what you've said.  I am revealed as quite flawed and weak in understanding ... Which gives Christ more opportunity to be immensely powerful here.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 6, 2013)

Israel said:


> Warning:
> Long Post.
> Brief for me, long, for you.
> 
> ...



So this is stunningly cool. Break it down for us, teacher. Speak plain. Just what is here, in you, in us, that this thread of threads brings out?


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## BT Charlie (Dec 6, 2013)

Israel said:


> Doc said, just before he died, "this is funny".
> 
> "Or is this just a rant by a self-glorified self-glorifier covered in pig dung, stinging from conviction by the Holy Spirit? It is Wednesday and I still do not know."
> 
> ...



I do love you, though you deserve better.  I apologize for my miscommunication and sin.  May Christ still be glorified in it all, however, as Christ is Lord and Savior.


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## Israel (Dec 6, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> The pig dung thing was my reference to myself.  Your being convinced it was correct was received as such.
> 
> What a waste of time.
> 
> ...



Do you really imagine I would call you a pig? You? Who have loved me, have shared your heart with me, shared your concern for me, shared your time with me, even often being the "only" one to address the very difficult thing I wrote? And write? (Especially here?)
 I am very poor then, in my communication, very inadequate in all things were you to think that to me a bible verse, an interpretation, an understanding of something written would ever suffice for such despite?

I won't tell you I love you. I will recognize however, your great love for me in Christ, your patience and forbearance. Your many kindnesses and queries, your encouragements and comforts of the Spirit. If you take me as one who abuses such...who holds these in such little regard, as to turn on a dime from friend to slopper of hogs, then to you, I must be.

And this brother, alone, is what gives me the greatest pause. Not that anyone could think this of me, for I know I can be all of that and more...but, unless someone does save me...apart from all my best efforts...to be either understood, a light, or alight...how clear it is...of myself, I can do nothing.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 6, 2013)

See Post 185, always.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 6, 2013)

Ok. Ok.  I am now convicted ... Scorched.  You are plainly expressing the same thoughts I possessed when the shoe was on the other foot.  

I am a tad unsure of the last paragraph...which forgive me again, if it underscores your meaning.  I know it glorifies Christ, who clearly shines through you, quite visibly to me.  And no pause is warranted, for my ignorance and sin is not worthy of such, though you again model the dependence that leads to life and an awaiting perfection.

But it wouldn't kill ya at times to say "here is my starting point," and "while I see this and so,  I do not mean to be understood as saying such and such" given that potential in context.


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## hummerpoo (Dec 6, 2013)

BT,

My reference to 50+ posts of self glorification referred to synergism: the claim or belief that man must participate in his “salvation” (remember what I think of that word).  That is what was opposing Gem’s statement.  To make that claim, is in my view to put oneself in a similar position as Job when he stood before the whirlwind.  To say that God can’t change my heart until after I give him approval to do so.  The unavoidable question is the order of regeneration, repentance, justification, etc. to which we monergist say there can be no question; the un-regenerate man (spiritually dead man) can not move toward God, he must be changed, quickened, brought to spiritual life, regenerated.

Quickly, I don’t know where you got the idea that anyone was saying that Lazarus was self glorifying when he came to life.  He had no part in that.  Had he claimed that he had accepted Jesus act of bring him to life, and his acceptance was required, he could have chosen not to come to life, now that’s self glorification.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 6, 2013)

mwilliams80 said:


> Amen



40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,[a] you did it to me.’

Amen, that one verse will really separate a lot of goats from the Sheep flock.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 6, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> BT,
> 
> My reference to 50+ posts of self glorification referred to synergism: the claim or belief that man must participate in his “salvation” (remember what I think of that word).  That is what was opposing Gem’s statement.  To make that claim, is in my view to put oneself in a similar position as Job when he stood before the whirlwind.  To say that God can’t change my heart until after I give him approval to do so.  The unavoidable question is the order of regeneration, repentance, justification, etc. to which we monergist say there can be no question; the un-regenerate man (spiritually dead man) can not move toward God, he must be changed, quickened, brought to spiritual life, regenerated.
> 
> Quickly, I don’t know where you got the idea that anyone was saying that Lazarus was self glorifying when he came to life.  He had no part in that.  Had he claimed that he had accepted Jesus act of bring him to life, and his acceptance was required, he could have chosen not to come to life, now that’s self glorification.



Thanks HP.  This again helps and explains much.  I will go back and re-read to determine what you think of the term salvation, as you say, and will study on these concepts. I have clearly waded into something above my pay grade.

I used the idea of Lazarus myself... to basically say what you are, I fear.  Jesus raised him from the dead. 

I perceived you and Israel basically saying it is evil for man to say he plays any role -- after Christ alone -- raises us from spiritual death. 

No one bad mouthed Lazarus for coming out, to answer your question.  I tried to convey the idea that doing so would be a rough equivalent to criticizing brothers who say they have faith in Christ's finished work on the cross, as opposed to believing as Gem that what is "right" is Jesus' faith in our salvation.  The criticism caused me to fret over my own testimony.

My grotesque limitations and ignorance fueled this. My apologies.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 6, 2013)

Wait a second.  Are we now attempting to use Lazarus' being brought back to life as a way to justify the belief that a person receives salvation prior to that person believing in Christ?

Interesting how far backwards one will often bend in order to work for some semblance of unity of faith.

It's Ephesians 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, 

*Brothers, this is important stuff here.  We should not seek to move towards the center on this issue simply for literary excellence.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 6, 2013)

:





Ronnie T said:


> Wait a second.  Are we now attempting to use Lazarus' being brought back to life as a way to justify the belief that a person receives salvation prior to that person believing in Christ?
> 
> Interesting how far backwards one will often bend in order to work for some semblance of unity of faith.
> 
> ...




My bad, Ronnie. Thanks for the admonishment.  This is my mess.  I waded into this with no knowledge or appreciation of monergism versus synergism.  

No literary excellence was sought, or obtained, on my part.

I did use Lazarus' experience being dead and receiving life from Christ, physically, as metaphor to advance my thoughts that pertain to spiritual matters.  

Please delete my posts if they are offensive.  And you don't want to know where I'm leaning now on the chicken and egg thing.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 6, 2013)

No.  The posts don't offend me.  It just seemed out of sorts to me.
.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 6, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> I perceived you and Israel basically saying it is evil for man to say he plays any role -- after Christ alone -- raises us from spiritual death.


With regard to salvation, I can't imagine anything more evil.

By Himself ...... or not at all.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 6, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> With regard to salvation, I can't imagine anything more evil.
> 
> By Himself ...... or not at all.



Do you use this same reasoning for you daily living? When you are in a restaurant and look at the menu, is it God who decides what you choose? Where is the glory to God in this?

Isaiah 1:17-19
…17Learn to do good; Seek justice, Reprove the ruthless, Defend the orphan, Plead for the widow. 18"Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD, "Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool. 19"If you consent and obey, You will eat the best of the land;

How do you explain, learn, seek, reprove, defend, plead, come, consent, & obey? If I have no choice to do these actions, how does it glorify God?
We are here for God's glory. 
why does verse 19 use the word If? If you consent & obey. Can you truly feel consenting & obeying God will glorify him without it being your choice?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 6, 2013)

Romans 10:13-14
13for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." 14How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 

Forget verse 13 and whoever, what about verse 14? How can someone convert without YOU as a witness?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 6, 2013)

Acts 2:37
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

This one I gotta give ya. I even used the KJV because it used the word "pricked."


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 6, 2013)

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Maybe this has nothing to do with salvation but it does have something to do with a choice: Back to the previous verse, what shall we do? What shall we do? What shall WE do?

I can't deny the persuasion of the Holy Spirit but, what shall we do if only for a gift from the Holy Spirit? I'm not even sure what this gift is but it's appears I have a choice. What shall I do to receive it?


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## BT Charlie (Dec 6, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> With regard to salvation, I can't imagine anything more evil.
> 
> By Himself ...... or not at all.



Thanks Gem. 

Had I heard the term monergist and read some thought on it, prior to saying what I said, which I had not ... 

I humbly agree that salvation, regeneration, is solely of God.  So to your point, limited to salvation, I can begin to see your views better.

Synergists, too, see salvation as completely by God,  I am given to understand.  Yet based on scripture, synergists apparently see a role for man to play across a continuum of requirements.  We have seen it expressed as a requirement to have an atom or mustard seed of faith, or belief, in Christ, as a co-part or even a condition precedent to God extending His grace.  


I did not know of this nor did I intend the language you quote to imply that I did or that I was presenting the idea that I had a say in my own salvation.

I've had a bad week, played out here in my flesh,  having made the case, again, that salvation is indeed unmerited and by God's grace alone. I apologize for stirring a pot that I am ill-equipped to stir.

I didn't intend to get into that.  Christ's glory and a beauty in your view are evident to me.  Yet at a point 
in my trajectory, I was invited to ask Jesus into my heart, which I see now could cause you to throw up a little in your mouth.  I like Billy Graham, and Ronnie too. So I am working through this active recipient = evil position.  Please bear with me.  At the end of the day, I need to know if examine doctrines will change a single thing in my testimony, which is Christ is Lord and Savior.

What I was stinging about and what you quoted was intended by me to pertain to post-regeneration or post-salvation circumstances -- after God opts to do that which only He can do.  Then...on the backside of God's saving work, completed before the foundation of earth, after man is sants, he talks of having faith in Jesus.

Some see this faith -- again, arising on the backside after salvation of the Lord occurred -- as a gift from God, as fruit of God's grace, as evidence of a regenerated man...a softened heart replacing the evil heart of stone of the depraved through the Spirit.  Or something like that.

I don't see any scripture that says that kind of human faith in Christ, arising from one's salvation, is evil.

I don't hear you saying that is the case either, unless I remain hopelessly perplexed by what you believe, in which 
case I again apologize.  I did understand you to say, however, that such faith (post-salvation) is not yours but Christ's faith in your salvation.

Peace and blessings, young man.  Good work here.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 6, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> With regard to salvation, I can't imagine anything more evil.
> 
> By Himself ...... or not at all.



You see no glory in a spiritually dead man making an intellectual decision to follow Jesus?
You see glory to God from a man with no choice? 
I see an emotional God full of love & forgiveness. I see a God full of wrath. I see a God giving punishment & rewards.
I  read about a God who ask us to repent, obey, love, & forgive.
I read about a God pleading for us to have the same emotions as he possesses. He is constantly asking and uses "if" a lot. This doesn't sound like a God who is controlling my every emotion. This doesn't sound like a God who is playing a game with my heart. 
I do not picture a God who I was made in his image, giving me emotions i'm not allowed to use.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 6, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> You see no glory in a spiritually dead man making an intellectual decision to follow Jesus?
> You see glory to God from a man with no choice?
> I see an emotional God full of love & forgiveness. I see a God full of wrath. I see a God giving punishment & rewards.
> I  read about a God who ask us to repent, obey, love, & forgive.
> ...




I see one true God, and a single loaf of the Bread of Life, at the center of it all.  May we love one another, as He loves us ... First ... And despite ourselves.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 6, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> With regard to salvation, I can't imagine anything more evil.
> 
> By Himself ...... or not at all.



In regards to salvation, is it possible that a man must make this decision using his own emotions of love and glory to God to really call it salvation? Otherwise how would it glorify God?
Would this man need to seek, ask, come, and admit that he is in need of salvation? Like the alcoholic, wouldn't he need to admit he is lost before God could administer help? 
What emotions are we created with that makes us created in the image of God? What emotions does God require of us to show that we are glorifying him? How can I love someone or forgive someone or help someone without it being my choice and glorifying God by showing the same emotions he processes? 
This is my testimony:
Matthew 25:35-40
35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,[a] you did it to me.’

It doesn't get any more emotional than this . Jesus is asking even pleading for us to love. If you see this as evil, all I ask of anyone is this: Are these verses relate to your salvation?
How can anyone say they don't treat their fellow man as they would personally treat Jesus and somehow figure it's not their choice is gonna have a rude awakening. 
This isn't my words but the words of Jesus, look at verse 40.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 6, 2013)

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Jesus is explaining to humans that they indeed do have a choice. Every time you, your choice, turn away or don't help or love a fellow human, you are indeed turning away from Jesus.
Again, if you don't believe this is a choice and/or a part of your salvation, then please join the Election crowd as they might see this way as evil.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 6, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> I see one true God, and a single loaf of the Bread of Life, at the center of it all.  May we love one another, as He loves us ... First ... And despite ourselves.



May we indeed do that and I can't imagine anything more evil than not. 
May we love, an emotion granted to us by our creator. Actually commanded of us by our creator. Actually possessed by our creator. It's part of our salvation.
I'm glad I was made in God's image. I like the idea that God has free will.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 6, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> I see one true God, and a single loaf of the Bread of Life, at the center of it all.  May we love one another, as He loves us ... First ... And despite ourselves.



We can't even begin to come close to God's love and forgiveness but as we are made in his image we do have it in us, as a choice, to try. We can overcome plenty of our negative emotions using God and his Son as examples to strive for. 
Can we do it alone? Possibly but why not take the easy way out? Why not use the gift of the Holy Spirit? Whens it's all said and done and down to the judgement mentioned in Matthew 25:35-40, I can only hope I have treated my fellow man as I would treat Jesus in the flesh as there is no difference.

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(use that gift)


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## gemcgrew (Dec 7, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> I don't hear you saying that is the case either, unless I remain hopelessly perplexed by what you believe, in which case I again apologize.  I did understand you to say, however, that such faith (post-salvation) is not yours but Christ's faith in your salvation.
> 
> Peace and blessings, young man.  Good work here.



BT, it is my faith and it is my salvation. 

“I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.”

Thank you for the kind words. I have thoroughly enjoyed the discussion.


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## Israel (Dec 7, 2013)

What a load off, I see "up" this morning. I was gonna say heaven, but that would be well, presumptuous...it's enough I can lift my head.
BT's observation of an enemy scampering through the camp, and his willingness to call down the fire has done "me"...this feverish part of the body needing a good artillery blast...a huge benefit. The smoke is clearing, the sun coming up on the camp, I await the cries of any wounded...and hear none. We live! Hallelujah! We live! But, I am listening.

Is it any wonder why Jesus chose 12? Well, maybe not all clear on the particular number...but the several we frequently reference in testimony?

I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.
Is this true in our own eyes?
I hear not one response that does not praise Jesus as Lord from any here. Thanks be to God for that. 
All bear witness that Jesus is our salvation, author and finisher, and despite the few places we tread in our comments as to the how and mechanism of our knowing that, no footsteps have led off into the abyss. All present and accounted for.

I am instructed to be more plain in my speech, and this is always necessary for me. It is a good reminder. I don't know if I can testify I speak in tongues more than any other, for I am convinced we each have a language with God, for God, from God, and towards God that is exquisitely beneficial to us individually, but may have to be put aside at times, as we settle for English, this made up gobbledygook invented post Babel that men have handed down to us to restart a tower that earned confusion the first time around. God knows we didn't choose it, we just can't help it. 
Maybe we can, at best, acknowledge its inherent weaknesses...and starting there, mindful of its origins and purpose in devices "pass me a hammer...no I said hammer, see, that's a screwdriver you've got, we have decided hammer means that other heavier thing...yeah..., no, wait...that's an anvil..."

Our own language...such a burden, but till nothing more need be said in our gathering...even the sharing of visions, revelations, understandings, toward a perfect man, we are left using this tool.

No, I have heard not one testimony of "I chose to believe in Jesus" as if the resurrection is eminently reasonable to a lost man, if anything I hear "Jesus came to me..." "I saw" "I have learned" "I was at the end and I cried out"...and for some "I wasn't even looking that I knew of...and wham!"

May we start with what was/is the finish...and beginning?
Can we speak of the Alpha and Omega, at once?
Do we brothers have "history"?
It seems so. But, reprove me as needed.

Joh 17:20  Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 
Joh 17:21  That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 

Man, that's either a tall order the Lord has laid upon them...or not.
These guys are put in a very responsible place, it seems. They are going to be entrusted with the spread of truth, that brings faith in the Son of God, Jesus the Messiah.

But, that's what Jesus did...does. He entrusts an "us" with the Truth, to tell the truth about the truth.

Wow, hearing this can really make "us" think we are something...look what the Lord has said! About "us"...!
Look what he's saying and asking of Daddy...about "us"!
This is way cool! Mom, thanks for asking that I get a good seat!
Mom, thanks for trying to put in a good word for us.
Yep, it's a lock, a done deal, Daddy never refuses Jesus  (and he doesn't)...we have seen the dead raised, the sick healed, the blind eyes opened!
We got a wonderful position in this thing! (and we do...it is indeed...a "lock")

I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.

Oh. 
Wait.
Wait.
Did "we" miss something?
WAIT! This ain't it!
WAIT!
Scattered, but all together. 
Scattered...in common.
Joh_20:19  Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 

These men, it seems, did tell the truth about the truth. Some, it seems, have believed their testimony...even as Jesus said would happen, those for whom he also prayed. But...he started with these men. 
And they told the truth on themselves.


Sometimes I wonder, if in our zeal, our less than perfect recollections of "the moment" we are inclined to add by subtraction the coming of Jesus into our midst.

That place where something of reason inserts itself into what was disbelief...for joy, for all of us...from which faith blossomed.

Like men leaving a stadium where our team "pulled one out", reversed a sure defeat, while we all sweated in the bleachers, one is heard to utter, later..."I knew all along we could do it".

Yeah...sure. We all saw how much faith "we had", wasn't it you who went to make sure the dead bolt was in place so the door wouldn't swing open and the Pharisees find us, too? OK, yeah...you got me...you were only doing that when I was making sure the curtains were drawn tightly, too...and telling Peter to keep his voice down.

These are the men.
Jesus chose according to Daddy's will.
And chooses.

The appearance of Jesus in their midst...even when one who would NOT receive their testimony, was bidden to stick his hand inside Jesus, without a flinch from the Lord.

Such men are trusted. Because all of their trust in themselves, has been plainly manifest to them.


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## hummerpoo (Dec 7, 2013)

Amen, and Amen my Brother.

You have again brought tears to my eyes.  Tears from mirth and tears of Spiritual joy from the events described, and your eminently eloquent expression of my ecstatic feelings emanating from having witnessed the providence of our Lord.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 7, 2013)

Israel said:


> What a load off, I see "up" this morning. I was gonna say heaven, but that would be well, presumptuous...it's enough I can lift my head.
> BT's observation of an enemy scampering through the camp, and his willingness to call down the fire has done "me"...this feverish part of the body needing a good artillery blast...a huge benefit. The smoke is clearing, the sun coming up on the camp, I await the cries of any wounded...and hear none. We live! Hallelujah! We live! But, I am listening.
> 
> Is it any wonder why Jesus chose 12? Well, maybe not all clear on the particular number...but the several we frequently reference in testimony?
> ...


Are you serious? I mean really serious? 

Did you say all of that? 

To say this? 

"He hath done all things well".


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## Israel (Dec 7, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Are you serious? I mean really serious?
> 
> Did you say all of that?
> 
> ...



I need a good editor. Whatcha gotta get to make ends meet?


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## formula1 (Apr 28, 2022)

I'm glad you revisited.  It is a good thing to remind ourselves of the goodness of the Lord!


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