# Back Yard Breeders



## Jerry L. Lyda (Jul 24, 2010)

This one thing that I have to get off my chest.

You byb do it for the money and nothing more. You could care less about your choosen breed. You have a female or two and breed every chance you get. You don't care about the genetics that you are adding back to the gene pool. You are breeding dogs that are not proven and you give no quarantees for your pups. You sell cheap in order to turn the dollar. You don't care what you reproduce, for again it's for the money that you put in your pocket. I see you as a small scale puppy mill. People should know what they are getting from you when they purchase your pups. Yes you will sell your pups but for the responsible breeders out there, they do not thank you for your crap you are producing. Good breeders breed in order to better that breed and in doing so their profit margine is not as good as yours but they do have a much more quality pup.

Sorry guys , just had to vent. Now back to our regular program.


----------



## MesquiteHeat (Jul 24, 2010)

I agree with that.  And the profit margin is really non existent; with what I've spent showing and caring for my dogs, I'd have to breed a litter a week for a few years to recover even some of the money.

But the BYB's are going to do what they do anyway, it's part of living in a free country; not that I like what they do at all but they have a right to do so.  Just take pride in the fact that you do what's right, the way it should be done.


----------



## game dog (Jul 24, 2010)

While i understand where you are coming from i would have to say not every body that breeds their dogs at home are worthless breeders. I have a german shepherd and an apbt and a bloodhound and if i were to start breeding any one of the breeds it would have to be at my house. I would do everything right by the breed and the people who bought them. I would be careful about drawing conclusions about people on here that breed their dogs sometimes. I have seen your post in the for sale forum and would hate to be that man that was trying to sell his dogs after all that has been made of it. Sorry just had to vent also.


----------



## SouthernBeagles (Jul 25, 2010)

I don't have a problem with back yard breeders selling pups. I have seen junk come out of show kennels too. This is a free country and they can breed them and sell them same as anyone. I was just a little concerned that he would offer to sell them pups without shots and deworming for a discount price. I mean by 8 weeks old, they should be on the second shot and dewormed atleast 5 times.....Just seemed like an unhealthy short cut but maybe he didn't know any better??


----------



## AbnormalEKG (Jul 25, 2010)




----------



## BulldogsNBama (Jul 25, 2010)

I can certainly understand and respect where you are coming from, but if it wasn't for backyard breeders, none of us would have any dogs LOL.  Man's best friend has been bred for the good or bad, since domesticated back during the caveman era.

It's only during the past couple of hundred years that most breeds have even evolved.  Sure we have more "modern advances" at our fingertips, but that doesn't make us elite to our forefathers, when it comes to breeding.  We simply have more tools at our disposal.  

Hopefully those money hungry backyard breeders will learn after their first litter, it's not always the cash cow they thought it would be.  When it comes to the financial end of things, doesn't take long to see, a lot more goes into it, than comes out of it (what little comes out of it, just goes right back into the dogs or at least should).

Yes siree, a lot of money, time and hard work is spent and most neither have the patience, nor staying power.  Those that do decide to continue at it, one would hope for them to become a work in progress, learn from their mistakes and go on to contribute something good to their chosen breed.

I sure don't see backyard breeders being worse or no more of a threat, than those crazy, radical animal rights groups or those akin to organized crime dog registries that are out there.  Those political machines have probably done more damage and ruined more dogs, than any backyard breeder could ever do.  Just my two cents worth.

Kudos to you for trying to do the right thing though!


----------



## Jerry L. Lyda (Jul 25, 2010)

game dog said:


> While i understand where you are coming from i would have to say not every body that breeds their dogs at home are worthless breeders. I have a german shepherd and an apbt and a bloodhound and if i were to start breeding any one of the breeds it would have to be at my house. I would do everything right by the breed and the people who bought them. I would be careful about drawing conclusions about people on here that breed their dogs sometimes. I have seen your post in the for sale forum and would hate to be that man that was trying to sell his dogs after all that has been made of it. Sorry just had to vent also.



I am not drawing any conclusions about anyone on here. 

What I am saying is truth about all.

Types of breeders, ( althought there are others )
True breeders: These breed for the betterment of the breed. To produce the best type dog that they breed for. In doing so they make sure that what they breed are of the best stock, genetics and health.

Hobby breeders: Same as above just at a smaller scale. These people normally breed in order to keep a pup so that they can compete and/or to show the lines that they have created. This is me, I know what I want out of my lines and breed in order to better the lines that I have. PS: I have not produced a single pup yet although I have tried. The breeding did not take.

BYB: They breed for the money and to keep pups to breed for money again and again. Small scale puppy mill.

Puppy mill: I don't even want to go there.



There are too many dogs out here that are produced that don't even make good house pets. The shelters are full of them. What have these dogs done to deserve the life that they have. Other dogs with health issues that curtain breeds happen to carry in their particular lines.

There are breed laws that are trying to be passed by our government. Breeders need to do the right thing by the breeds that they breed. I'll stand up for all breeds to help stop these stupid laws from being passed. It's not a breed that is bad it's the deed that some breeders and /or owners allow to happen. 

We need to be smart with our breeds in order to keep "Man's Best Friend". We need to be responsible.


----------



## NGaHunter (Jul 25, 2010)

I totally agree with you 100%

I can point out several liters that one of the two dogs(or both) have traits that are undesirable with AKC.  But they went ahead and bred anyway.  And everyone knows how I feel about certification on the hips, eyes...EIC and CNM.


----------



## JuliaH (Jul 25, 2010)

Good post!  Put me in the Hobby Breeders category too. I sure can't make a living off my dogs...lol. In fact, I still keep a part time job to keep up with expenses. If I didn't have my dogs I could retire, but that would be boring...lol.

Between being sure they have good, comfortable kennels, the best feed I can get them, training, birds for training at home, keeping my vet bill from breaking the bank, and more, there is no way to really make money. 

Julia



Jerry L. Lyda said:


> I am not drawing any conclusions about anyone on here.
> 
> What I am saying is truth about all.
> 
> ...


----------



## SouthernBeagles (Jul 25, 2010)

If you have a superior quality genetic sound dog, the back yard breeders and puppy mills won't be able to compete with you and your dogs will be in demand. Sure they will sell cheaper than you but You can't stop others from breeding fido to lucy and making a quick buck. You CAN breed for superior pups and do your part for bettering your chosen breed. 
As I mentioned earlier, I have seen junk come out of show kennels too. I believe they call these pups "pet quality". If it is ok for show people to pass off their junk as "pet quality", why isn't it ok for Joe Blow to breed his pets? If breeders don't like what Joe Blow does, spay your "pet quality" pups BEFORE you sell or place them. Contracts that hold papers until the dog is fixed don't mean squat when you have registeries out there like the CKC registering anything that looks like a pure bred......Just saying..........


----------



## BulldogsNBama (Jul 25, 2010)

Jerry L. Lyda said:


> I am not drawing any conclusions about anyone on here.
> 
> What I am saying is truth about all.
> 
> ...



One thing I think that might help a lot is if breeders would be willing to take back a dog that was bred by them, in the event an owner could no longer care for it or take back problem dogs (either health or temperament wise). 

It might not even be the breeder's problem, but having the knowledge and understanding of his breed, he could prevent it from just becoming someone else's problem.

I know in my own case, I sure would not want to see any of my pups end up at a pound or shelter somewhere.  This would help cut down on some of the shelter over-crowding etc.

Of course those that are breeding just for the money are not the ones that are going to be willing to do that.


----------



## SouthernBeagles (Jul 25, 2010)

Where to start.....


> AKC should have people in every state that periodically stop in and take a look at the pups and parents to see if there up to standard this would stop a lot of puppy mills and people with accidental breedings selling pups as quality pups.


AKC DOES random kennel inspections. If you own an AKC dog, you could be inspected. I know several people that have had AKC show up and DNA test the dogs and check paperwork. 


> I have beagles and i get tired of people saying they have had the same bloodline for 20 or more years it just not possible to do this without bringing in outside blood


Bloodlines. I have had the same bloodline for nearly 20 years. Every dog in my kennel goes back to the same dogs I started out with. I do line breed and will outcross when needed, but then those offsprings are brought back into the line. So it IS possible to have the same bloodline without inbreeding every litter. 


> Albino traits in hounds are one trait of inbred hounds AKC says they wont recognize


I have judged beagles on comformation for many years with the ARHA and AKC. I have NEVER seen an albino beagle. I have seen some light lemon colors that could pass as albino from a distance, but never seen a true albino. That doesn't mean there isn't some, but if I had one show up in my line, then that fork of the tree would stop.


> AKC says they wont recognize hounds with light colored eyes hounds with any color nose other than black but how do they know what they look like ...they dont ask these type questions on the litter registration...Go to Akc.com and look at what a true AKC beagle is supposed to look like. You will see a Tri Color beagle


Color.......Maybe you need to check out the National Beagle Club's website and look at the color page. http://clubs.akc.org/NBC/beagle_colors.htm
The NBC is the parent club for beagles and is where the AKC gets it's standards from.
Light color eyes. The genetics of a dog coat determines his eye color. Because the AKC beagle standard (AND NKC beagle standard) allows dilutes like the brown blanket, lemons, and blues (any hound color), it is impossible for the color of those hounds eyes to be dark. When judging, I will deduct for light eye color on a tri color, but not a dilute color. I can show you several AKC SHOW CHAMPIONS that are dilutes with light colored eyes. 
The standard is nothing more than a road map for the perfect dog. There is NO SUCH THING as a dog without fault. If you think you have that perfect dog, I would be glad to look at it for you and show you where that dog doesn't fit the standard. I have looked at thousands of dogs and have yet to see the perfect beagle.


> I guarantee there are plenty of beagles akc registered that are over 15 inches and anything over 15 is not eligible.


Size.. A beagle over 15 inches is STILL a beagle. They cannot compete in field or show events because of their size but they are STILL eligible for registration. The problem is there are so many hare hunters that need taller dogs for snow that they actually breed for beagles over 15 inches to be able to do their job.


----------



## Jerry L. Lyda (Jul 25, 2010)

SouthernBeagles said:


> If you have a superior quality genetic sound dog, the back yard breeders and puppy mills won't be able to compete with you and your dogs will be in demand.
> 
> 
> As I mentioned earlier, I have seen junk come out of show kennels too. I believe they call these pups "pet quality". If it is ok for show people to pass off their junk as "pet quality", why isn't it ok for Joe Blow to breed his pets? If breeders don't like what Joe Blow does, spay your "pet quality" pups BEFORE you sell or place them.
> ...



(Them beating my price in order to sell dogs.) This isn't even close to what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is the quality of their dogs. Dogs that are unhealty and these who knows where they end up. True and I hand it to the pet owners that take care and spend tons of money on these pups for the rest of their lives.

You are so right about this. Akc and CKC has standards and if a dog don't meet these standards ( size and etc...) they can not be shown. This doesn't mean the dog is no good or that you shouldn't even breed this dog. This simply means he may be bigger than standard, etc. I have seen over standard male GSD bred to smaller female and they produce standard pups that work well.

Unless good breeders can see into the future they won't know which dogs are pet quality until they are old enough to see if they will work. Good breeders (most ) breed for purpose and not for pets. All breeders know that not 100% of any litter will be working dogs. Although these are litter mates of pups that turn out to be great workers. Some pups just simply don't work, these are pet quality and these should be fixed. Only good breeders breed desirable traits. In the old days and I'm sure some on here remember that the pups that don't make the grade where killed or culled depending on how you want to call it.

My whole thing is that BYB and PUPPY MILLS could care less about a breed, the standard or their health. They breed for the money and that's all.


----------



## game dog (Jul 25, 2010)

I still say if you are a breeder you should be responsible and have all checks and shots and all the rest done. But come on fellas unless you have a place down town where you are breeding you too are breeding in your back yard. As for the cheap prices, i agree there are those out there that are poor breeders and are making a easy buck but on the other hand I would never pay $1500 for a dog. I think you can tell who is a good breeder and who is not. By the way if you are buying an animal you have a heavy responsibility to check all these things out before you buy one.


----------



## Jerry L. Lyda (Jul 25, 2010)

Game dog you are wrong about everyone being a BYB just because they don't breed downtown. I'm sure you don't mean that, do you?

I would pay $1500.00 for a dog and I would also get a guarantee in writing. I would not pay $200 for a dog. I believe you get what you pay for.


----------



## game dog (Jul 25, 2010)

Then where do you breed???????????? I am saying you can be a good breeder in your back yard. That was plain english
You can pay that if you want. I got one much much cheaper with a guarantee and a health check.


----------



## SouthernBeagles (Jul 25, 2010)

Jerry, I understand your frustration but I still have to disagree. There is a place for everyone. If I want a GSD, I am not going to pay $1500.00 for it unless I plan to breed, show, or train for a purpose. If I just want a pet, then I will go for the $350.00 dog if the parents are good temperment and the health is gaurenteed.

I used to get frustrated too. I found a way to look into that crystal ball. I quit selling puppies and raise them and train them myself so I know what each pup turns out to be and will keep it or place it accordingly. 
I think the straw that broke the camels back was when I had a lady that had bought a pup from me years ago call and ask if I had another as a companion. When she told me she had to shock her beagle to keep it from running rabbits, I about died!!! That poor pup had SO MUCH DESIRE that it started its self, then was being punished for doing what it was bred to do! That was it! No more of my pups will leave here as a pet. I will let the what you call "back yard breeders" supply the pet market and I will stick with my hunting dogs.


----------



## Jerry L. Lyda (Jul 25, 2010)

Game  dog, now that you cleared that up, I understand the way you said it.

Now let's get back on track. This thread isn't about how much someone would or would not pay for a pup. It's about poor breeding habits that BYB do. Not Good breeders Not hobby breeders but back yard breeders that breed only for the money. That has one to two litters every year from the same Female and in most cases the same male.


----------



## SouthernBeagles (Jul 25, 2010)

Donivan Creek Ace said:


> Not albino in color akc says pink eyes or pink nose are in no way hound like features. and those traits upon inspection of an akc rep.  will be withdrawn from the akc breeders registry.



I am not doubting you and again I have never seen a "true" albino, but can you show me where this is written on the AKC site? It is NOT in the breed standard. See below: especially under disqualifications. Disqualify does not mean revoking papers.


> © The American Kennel Club, Inc.
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...


----------



## JuliaH (Jul 25, 2010)

Instead of calling them Backyard Breeders, lets call them Puppy Mills then...

Most of us do our breeding at home, if not all of us. 

Poor breeding habits are sad for the animals for sure, and I agree with all that 

Julia



Jerry L. Lyda said:


> Game dog, now that you cleared that up, I understand the way you said it.
> 
> Now let's get back on track. This thread isn't about how much someone would or would not pay for a pup. It's about poor breeding habits that BYB do. Not Good breeders Not hobby breeders but back yard breeders that breed only for the money. That has one to two litters every year from the same Female and in most cases the same male.


----------



## K9SAR (Jul 26, 2010)

game dog said:


> Then where do you breed???????????? I am saying you can be a good breeder in your back yard. That was plain english
> You can pay that if you want. I got one much much cheaper with a guarantee and a health check.





The term "backyard breeder" does not mean someone who breeds dogs in their backyard.  It means an irresponsible dog copulator (downtown, uptown, in the country, on a boat, etc.) that breeds solely to [attempt to] make a profit, doesn't care about the health of their animals, etc.

"What is a responsible breeder?"
http://www.canismajor.com/dog/responbr.html



			
				Finding a responsible breeder said:
			
		

> Responsible breeders answer buyers' questions, keep puppies they cannot place, allow their female dog to recover sufficiently from one breeding before doing another, and take back any puppy that does not work out. They breed dogs because they admire their breed and want to contribute to its betterment. They guarantee their pups free of genetic diseases common in their breed and replace the pup if the disease should crop up. They consider the puppies they produce to be their responsibility for the life of that puppy, so they follow-up frequently to see what's going on.
> 
> They evaluate their puppies as show and breeding quality or pet quality and sell pet puppies with a spay-neuter contract. Pet quality puppies are not deficient - they just may not meet the breed standard for size, color, coat type, bone structure, head type, etc. Many responsible breeders sell pet puppies at a lower price than show puppies.


----------



## Cam (Jul 26, 2010)

In the absence of breeding rules, there is no baseline or cut-off line for 'right and wrong'. In other words, all "definitions" of breeders are subjective, and only an opinion. 
Eg: what some consider 'betterment for the breed' may not be what other breeders think. No offense, but it's pointless to discuss 'byb' if there are no regulations for dog breeders at all in this country. 

There are socalled 'reputable' dog breeders who breed with diseased dogs, but yet have created the image of breeding 'the best dogs in the world' that puppy buyers feel honored to own a dog from them or worse, that puppy owners don't dare coming forward with any problems.   

Thus, it is NOT important what efforts a breeder actually does, but it is what image the breeder creates of him/herself. Image is crucial and who you know, in order to be considered a 'reputable' breeder. 
It's a bit different in the AKC performance dog world, but it still is who you know and how you are being preceived as a breeder.


----------



## plottman25 (Jul 26, 2010)

Jerry L. Lyda said:


> This one thing that I have to get off my chest.
> 
> You byb do it for the money and nothing more. You could care less about your choosen breed. You have a female or two and breed every chance you get. You don't care about the genetics that you are adding back to the gene pool. You are breeding dogs that are not proven and you give no quarantees for your pups. You sell cheap in order to turn the dollar. You don't care what you reproduce, for again it's for the money that you put in your pocket. I see you as a small scale puppy mill. People should know what they are getting from you when they purchase your pups. Yes you will sell your pups but for the responsible breeders out there, they do not thank you for your crap you are producing. Good breeders breed in order to better that breed and in doing so their profit margine is not as good as yours but they do have a much more quality pup.
> 
> Sorry guys , just had to vent. Now back to our regular program.



Thats a load of bull crap.  Their may be a few people out there that just do it for the money, just like there are very few of people like you that breed for genetics and all of that crap.  Most people on here that breed their "back yard dogs" are doing mainly to get a pup for themselves. And if they happen to put a few bucks in their pocket then so be it.  You are talking bad about  people selling puppies for a cheap price, but you are sure not complaining if You, or breeders of YOUR choice are putting 5 or 6 hundred dollars or more a pup in their pockets just because your dog and list of dead dogs on piece of paper. I have never seen a peice of paper tree game, or win any event that you could enter a dog in.


----------



## plottman25 (Jul 26, 2010)

JuliaH said:


> Good post!  Put me in the Hobby Breeders category too. I sure can't make a living off my dogs...lol. In fact, I still keep a part time job to keep up with expenses. If I didn't have my dogs I could retire, but that would be boring...lol.
> 
> Between being sure they have good, comfortable kennels, the best feed I can get them, training, birds for training at home, keeping my vet bill from breaking the bank, and more, there is no way to really make money.
> 
> Julia



amen lol


----------



## TRKbeagles (Jul 26, 2010)

plottman25 said:


> Thats a load of bull crap.  Their may be a few people out there that just do it for the money, just like there are very few of people like you that breed for genetics and all of that crap.  Most people on here that breed their "back yard dogs" are doing mainly to get a pup for themselves. And if they happen to put a few bucks in their pocket then so be it.  You are talking bad about  people selling puppies for a cheap price, but you are sure not complaining if You, or breeders of YOUR choice are putting 5 or 6 hundred dollars or more a pup in their pockets just because your dog and list of dead dogs on piece of paper. I have never seen a peice of paper tree game, or win any event that you could enter a dog in.



couldn't have said that better!


----------



## CFGD (Jul 26, 2010)

game dog said:


> I still say if you are a breeder you should be responsible and have all checks and shots and all the rest done. But come on fellas unless you have a place down town where you are breeding you too are breeding in your back yard. As for the cheap prices, i agree there are those out there that are poor breeders and are making a easy buck but on the other hand I would never pay $1500 for a dog. I think you can tell who is a good breeder and who is not. By the way if you are buying an animal you have a heavy responsibility to check all these things out before you buy one.



well said josh...as for the "byb" term...well who on here gets hotel rooms to breed thier dogs?perhaps a little barry white in the background??we all know what byb is SUPPOSED to define,but a poorly used term in my opinion...i produce very potent hog dogs and have chosen to sell to one person over another at a a lower price just to ensure a better,more responsibe home.i have a disclaimer on my website that reads"We are not a kennel,because we do not mass-produce puppies.We breed for personal use,then place the remaining pups to good homes only."....and yes i have a goal and plans for EVERY breeding that is made.my granddad left me his life's work (bloodline)and i  promised  him that i would never screw it up.so yes people who breed dogs in their back yard can be knowledgable and responsible.i prefer the term "neophyte breeders" instead of "BYB's when referring to irresponsible breeders.(which disgust me by the way)...as for "high price =high quality....no not always...the same guys wanting 1000 and more for these pups are the same ones breeding dogs with genetic abnormalities and health issues,these dogs cant walk a flight of stairs because they are so top heavy and short. paying alot does not always mean quality...Gr.Ch. 35 got his name because he was bought for 35 dollars.he had no papers,his pedigree was unknown,yet he went on to become one of the greatest  sporting APBT's in history.google it...


----------



## SouthernBeagles (Jul 26, 2010)

Donivan Creek Ace said:


> Im not going to have a pizzing contest with you about this show me your field champions and then we can talk....


Which ones? ARHA or AKC? Will send you a pm with photos and names. That was a SERIOUS question about where that is written. I have been in this game a LONG time and if it is THERE I want to see it. If you just heard someone say that, then I can understand that too. It isn't a pizzing contest....it is a show me request.


----------



## Jerry L. Lyda (Jul 26, 2010)

You two AREN'T listening.

Let me type a little slower. LOL

You said:
Their may be a few people out there that just do it for the money, just like there are very few of people like you that breed for genetics and all of that crap.

These are the BYB vs Hobby breeders. People on here that you refered to are hobby breeders , like myself. We breed because we want something better than what we have. We breed for purpose not for the MONEY.

You say I'm talking bad about people selling for a cheap price. I don't care if you give your pups away. At least then you wouldn't be breeding JUST for the money. I'm talking about people that breed over and over again JUST for the money. Now if you can't understand that send me a PM so that we can talk over the phone.

5 or 6 hundred dollars in my pocket for a pup???. That's not even close to the price that I'll sell my pups for, that's too cheap.  Those dead dogs on a piece of paper tells you a lot about genetics. Tells you what you should get from a breeding, not that you always will as I've said in an earlier post. You hound people are like a lot of us GSD people. You may not have the piece of paper(pedigree) but you know which dogs were bred to get what you have and what you have to breed your dog to in order to get what you hope for. Now you knowing all this is great but you WILL forget some of it. When it's on paper you don't forget. Now lets slow down again, I have a piece of paper and you have the knowledge of where our dogs came from.  Your knowledge is what trees game. The knowledge you used (or someone did) is what treed that game. Sure you can hap-hazard breed and may get results. Why waist the time , breed for what you know. That's what people on here breed for because most of us ARE hobby breeds.

If you still think what I'm saying is a bunch of crap then you are barking up the wrong tree (pun intended). I really don't care what you think. You're welcome to your opinion. Deep down you know I'm right.


----------



## Jerry L. Lyda (Jul 26, 2010)

Ram freak, Well said


----------



## brownceluse (Jul 26, 2010)

plottman25 said:


> Thats a load of bull crap.  Their may be a few people out there that just do it for the money, just like there are very few of people like you that breed for genetics and all of that crap.  Most people on here that breed their "back yard dogs" are doing mainly to get a pup for themselves. And if they happen to put a few bucks in their pocket then so be it.  You are talking bad about  people selling puppies for a cheap price, but you are sure not complaining if You, or breeders of YOUR choice are putting 5 or 6 hundred dollars or more a pup in their pockets just because your dog and list of dead dogs on piece of paper. I have never seen a peice of paper tree game, or win any event that you could enter a dog in.


x


----------



## lee hanson (Jul 26, 2010)

i agree. i  i have posted the same thing about byb destroying my choice of  breed. glad to see some one can get some support on the subject


----------



## plottman25 (Jul 26, 2010)

Jerry L. Lyda said:


> You two AREN'T listening.
> 
> Let me type a little slower. LOL
> 
> ...


 
You two AREN'T listening.

Let me type a little slower. LOL

you said: 
Their may be a few people out there that just do it for the money, just like there are very few of people like you that breed for genetics and all of that crap.

These are the BYB vs. Hobby breeders. People on here that you referred to are hobby breeders, like myself. We breed because we want something better than what we have. We breed for purpose not for the MONEY. I agree

you say I'm talking bad about people selling for a cheap price. I don't care if you give your pups away. At least then you wouldn't be breeding JUST for the money. I'm talking about people that breed over and over again JUST for the money. Now if you can't understand that send me a PM so that we can talk over the phone.

5 or 6 hundred dollars in my pocket for a pup? That's not even close to the price that I'll sell my pups for, that's too cheap. Those dead dogs on a piece of paper tell you a lot about genetics. Tells you what you should get from a breeding, not that you always will as I've said in an earlier post. Disagree- the only way you are going to know if each of these animals were the ancestors of your animal is to be DNA certified..All of them. That’s not going to happen. There are a lot of dishonest people out there, and unfortunately I know of one in particular that will register a hound with a DEAD sires papers. You yourself know, all you need to register the litter is Kennel club #. I’m not saying you do so don’t take this part the wrong way. It’s just a point of fact.
You hound people are like a lot of us GSD people. You may not have the piece of paper(pedigree) but you know which dogs were bred to get what you have and what you have to breed your dog to in order to get what you hope for. Now you knowing all this are great but you WILL forget some of it. When it's on paper you don't forget. Now let’s slow down again, I have a piece of paper and you have the knowledge of where our dogs came from. Your knowledge is what trees game. The knowledge you used (or someone did) is what treed that game. Sure you can hap-hazard breed and may get results. Why waist the time , breed for what you know. That's what people on here breed for because most of us ARE hobby breeds. Both agree and disagree. Now I am 100% sure that a lot of coonhunters are going to disagree with me on this point, but when it comes to breeding I don’t care if both the sire and dam are top notch hunters, or if they are just lap dogs. What the mama and daddy do, or don’t do is not going to be the same traits that the puppies have. A hound either has it or it don’t. It’s all on how the person trains the dog. 

If you still think what I'm saying is a bunch of crap then you are barking up the wrong tree (pun intended). I really don't care what you think. You're welcome to your opinion. Deep down you know I'm right. Disagree. Its all a matter of opinion.
So I will agree to disagree.


----------



## game dog (Jul 26, 2010)

K9SAR said:


> The term "backyard breeder" does not mean someone who breeds dogs in their backyard.  It means an irresponsible dog copulator (downtown, uptown, in the country, on a boat, etc.) that breeds solely to [attempt to] make a profit, doesn't care about the health of their animals, etc.
> 
> "What is a responsible breeder?"
> http://www.canismajor.com/dog/responbr.html



Thank you. Now you see folks what happens when you don't take your meds.


----------



## K9SAR (Jul 27, 2010)

game dog said:


> Thank you. Now you see folks what happens when you don't take your meds.



Here's a better definition for the term 

Backyard breeder implies either or both of _careless_ home breeding for non-commercial reasons or a small commercial operation that _does not adhere to good breeding, care and sale practises_. In contrast, larger commercial operations of a similar type are usually termed a puppy mill (especially in North America) or puppy farm.


----------



## Jeff Phillips (Jul 27, 2010)

Now we have folks who want a dog breeding Gestapo


----------



## Jerry L. Lyda (Jul 27, 2010)

I can just see it now. "BSL"

The government taking our dogs like they ARE doing in other countries. Why because of irresponsible owners and BREEDERS. Nerve bag dogs that are fear bites. Then our guns are next. It happened in other countries because the people let it happen. When you don't think it can't happen here to me that is funny. Makes as you called it Gestapo breeding sound like the thing to do. Don't worry though because that type of breeding practices will never happen. We can't get people to stand together. The AKC and the NRA can't do it alone. They need us.


----------



## SouthernBeagles (Jul 27, 2010)

> The AKC and the NRA can't do it alone. They need us.



I agree! This is why I am against the banning of Pit Bulls and other so called dangerous breeds even though I personally would never own one. I think the owners should be held liable for their dogs and it should be harsh! But you can't blame an entire breed on the bad apples. 
You also can't hold all back yard breeders accountable because of a few bad apples. Not all of these people that breed their pets once or twice a year are evil or careless or greedy or bad. Some are just not educated to the health issues or propper health care for their breeds. They know not what they do! All they know is they have nice dogs and they are expensive and they can breed these two together and sell some pups to help pay bills! Money is a good thing when you don't have much! I don't have a problem with that! I would rather educate them on the propper way to go about it and educate them on what to look out for genetically with their breed, than to group them all together and call them irresponsible and greedy. They do have puppy lemon laws to hold them responsible.


----------



## Perfection (Jul 27, 2010)

*Education is the key!*

That is why responsible breeders sell their puppies on LIMITED registration.  Instead of criticizing their breeding practices take a little time to educate them on what a responsible breeder is.  
FYI.......In most cases you can get your dog spayed or neutered for around $100.  Small price to pay to not have to worry about an "accidental breeding".


----------



## SouthernBeagles (Jul 27, 2010)

As long as there are registries out there like the CKC pet registry not the (Canada kennel club)that will register a pure bred looking dog, the limited registration does NO GOOD to prevent people from breeding. A lot of these "purebreds" you see for sale don't even HAVE papers. BTW, a spay nuture contract won't hold up in court if you demand the dog back. All you can do is withhold papers and like I said above, withholding papers won't stop them from breeding. Most people looking for a pet don't care about papers. That is why there is a market for the so called "back yard breeders". And even still, if you sell a breeding quality dog with full registration, you still can't gaurentee that the dog won't be irresponsibly bred. 
Thats why I keep my pups and sort them. I don't sell pups not even to rabbit hunters or field trialers. If the dog isn't breeding quality, get if fixed! If it is, once that dog leaves your home, it isn't yours any more and you have no legal control over what happens to the dog
FYI. 
The Ga dept of Ag has spay/nuter certificates they put out a couple of times a year to vets in your area that will cut the cost in half. You just have to know what time of year they are released and get on the list ASAP.


----------



## lee hanson (Jul 27, 2010)

K9SAR said:


> The term "backyard breeder" does not mean someone who breeds dogs in their backyard.  It means an irresponsible dog copulator (downtown, uptown, in the country, on a boat, etc.) that breeds solely to [attempt to] make a profit, doesn't care about the health of their animals, etc.
> 
> "What is a responsible breeder?"
> http://www.canismajor.com/dog/responbr.html


----------



## lee hanson (Jul 27, 2010)

SouthernBeagles said:


> As long as there are registries out there like the CKC pet registry not the (Canada kennel club)that will register a pure bred looking dog, the limited registration does NO GOOD to prevent people from breeding. A lot of these "purebreds" you see for sale don't even HAVE papers. BTW, a spay nuture contract won't hold up in court if you demand the dog back. All you can do is withhold papers and like I said above, withholding papers won't stop them from breeding. Most people looking for a pet don't care about papers. That is why there is a market for the so called "back yard breeders". And even still, if you sell a breeding quality dog with full registration, you still can't gaurentee that the dog won't be irresponsibly bred.
> Thats why I keep my pups and sort them. I don't sell pups not even to rabbit hunters or field trialers. If the dog isn't breeding quality, get if fixed! If it is, once that dog leaves your home, it isn't yours any more and you have no legal control over what happens to the dog
> FYI.
> The Ga dept of Ag has spay/nuter certificates they put out a couple of times a year to vets in your area that will cut the cost in half. You just have to know what time of year they are released and get on the list ASAP.



........the moble vet where i live will spay/nuter for $60.00 all day every day


----------



## jessicay (Jul 27, 2010)

Perfection said:


> That is why responsible breeders sell their puppies on LIMITED registration.  Instead of criticizing their breeding practices take a little time to educate them on what a responsible breeder is.
> FYI.......In most cases you can get your dog spayed or neutered for around $100.  Small price to pay to not have to worry about an "accidental breeding".


----------



## contender* (Jul 27, 2010)

plottman25 said:


> Thats a load of bull crap.  Their may be a few people out there that just do it for the money, just like there are very few of people like you that breed for genetics and all of that crap.  Most people on here that breed their "back yard dogs" are doing mainly to get a pup for themselves. And if they happen to put a few bucks in their pocket then so be it.  You are talking bad about  people selling puppies for a cheap price, but you are sure not complaining if You, or breeders of YOUR choice are putting 5 or 6 hundred dollars or more a pup in their pockets just because your dog and list of dead dogs on piece of paper. I have never seen a peice of paper tree game, or win any event that you could enter a dog in.




Great post Plottman, it's a shame "some" folks can't understand that. I bread my Beagles to try to get the best dog possible. 
As far as me selling my dogs for a "cheap" price, I seriously doubt I make anything (probably loose money) on them because I'm just looking to better my pack. By the time I take the female from gestation to birth and the puppies from birth to 8 weeks I've got way more time + money in them that I'm selling them for. So to say that everyone out there that is selling a pup for under 500 bux is "just in it for the money" is an outright lie.


----------



## lee hanson (Jul 27, 2010)

contender* said:


> Great post Plottman, it's a shame "some" folks can't understand that. I bread my Beagles to try to get the best dog possible.
> As far as me selling my dogs for a "cheap" price, I seriously doubt I make anything (probably loose money) on them because I'm just looking to better my pack. By the time I take the female from gestation to birth and the puppies from birth to 8 weeks I've got way more time + money in them that I'm selling them for. So to say that everyone out there that is selling a pup for under 500 bux is "just in it for the money" is an outright lie.



but most people with cheap pups.  don't spend the kind of money you do.they probably couldn't tell you where  there nearest vet is . so they make pretty good money.


----------



## contender* (Jul 27, 2010)

lee hanson said:


> but most people with cheap pups.  don't spend the kind of money you do.they probably couldn't tell you where  there nearest vet is . so they make pretty good money.



I have to admit that I've never met anyone like the ones that are being described. I have to wonder how many of the other posters know any of them. Now I DO know folks that have boxes of pups at the walmart and such that are selling them really cheap but their usually some sort of mixed breed Heinz 57 type pups, like a ****zu/ jack russel mix. Those folks have to sell cheap or givem away. 
The guys and gals that I have come into contact with have always been fine folks that care for their dogs and pups. 
To use the term "Back yard breeders" as to refer to everyone that sells a dog for under 500 bux and call us irresponsible (as the OP did) is insulting.
Still waiting for Mr Lyda to answer the question about where he breeds his dogs, maybe he does it in his FRONT yard.......


----------



## K9SAR (Jul 27, 2010)

lee hanson said:


> ........the moble vet where i live will spay/nuter for $60.00 all day every day



And there are many organizations that people don't know about that will spay and neuter for FREE (without any sort of income requirements, etc.)




Perfection said:


> Instead of criticizing their breeding practices take a little time to educate them on what a responsible breeder is.



As for educating people what a responsible breeder is...actually that has been the topic of several threads.


----------



## lee hanson (Jul 27, 2010)

contender* said:


> I have to admit that I've never met anyone like the ones that are being described. I have to wonder how many of the other posters know any of them. Now I DO know folks that have boxes of pups at the walmart and such that are selling them really cheap but their usually some sort of mixed breed Heinz 57 type pups, like a ****zu/ jack russel mix. Those folks have to sell cheap or givem away.
> The guys and gals that I have come into contact with have always been fine folks that care for their dogs and pups.
> To use the term "Back yard breeders" as to refer to everyone that sells a dog for under 500 bux and call us irresponsible (as the OP did) is insulting.
> Still waiting for Mr Lyda to answer the question about where he breeds his dogs, maybe he does it in his FRONT yard.......



i dont remeber ever saying back yard breeders...........i never said  any thing about any of what you are saying so go take your meds and re read what i  said.


----------



## K9SAR (Jul 27, 2010)

contender* said:


> To use the term "Back yard breeders" as to refer to everyone that sells a dog for under 500 bux and call us irresponsible (as the OP did) is insulting.
> Still waiting for Mr Lyda to answer the question about where he breeds his dogs, maybe he does it in his FRONT yard.......




Definition of "Backyard Breeder:"



K9SAR said:


> Here's a better definition for the term
> 
> Backyard breeder implies either or both of _careless_ home breeding for non-commercial reasons or a small commercial operation that _does not adhere to good breeding, care and sale practises_. In contrast, larger commercial operations of a similar type are usually termed a puppy mill (especially in North America) or puppy farm.


----------



## lee hanson (Jul 27, 2010)

lee hanson said:


> but most people with cheap pups.  don't spend the kind of money you do.they probably couldn't tell you where  there nearest vet is . so they make pretty good money.





contender* said:


> Great post Plottman, it's a shame "some" folks can't understand that. I bread my Beagles to try to get the best dog possible.
> As far as me selling my dogs for a "cheap" price, I seriously doubt I make anything (probably loose money) on them because I'm just looking to better my pack. By the time I take the female from gestation to birth and the puppies from birth to 8 weeks I've got way more time + money in them that I'm selling them for. So to say that everyone out there that is selling a pup for under 500 bux is "just in it for the money" is an outright lie.





contender* said:


> I have to admit that I've never met anyone like the ones that are being described. I have to wonder how many of the other posters know any of them. Now I DO know folks that have boxes of pups at the walmart and such that are selling them really cheap but their usually some sort of mixed breed Heinz 57 type pups, like a ****zu/ jack russel mix. Those folks have to sell cheap or givem away.
> The guys and gals that I have come into contact with have always been fine folks that care for their dogs and pups.
> To use the term "Back yard breeders" as to refer to everyone that sells a dog for under 500 bux and call us irresponsible (as the OP did) is insulting.
> Still waiting for Mr Lyda to answer the question about where he breeds his dogs, maybe he does it in his FRONT yard.......



here  read this angin.


----------



## contender* (Jul 27, 2010)

lee hanson said:


> i dont remeber ever saying back yard breeders...........i never said  any thing about any of what you are saying so go take your meds and re read what i  said.



I did not say you refered to back yard breeders, Maybe your the one that needs to work on your reading comprehension.

The OP (as in original poster) as well as several others in this thread referred as such.


----------



## Jerry L. Lyda (Jul 27, 2010)

Lee, Contender wasn't talking about you. He is talking to me the OP.

Contender, The idea of where I breed my dogs have nothing to do with this topic. The topic is BYB. That's only a term for what has been described as someone who breeds not for the betterment of a breed but for money only. NO WHERE have I said all breeders that breed their dogs are BYB. I have not gotten my litter yet but when I do Iwill try to better what I already have. Also I want to keep one for my training. And you know maybe I'll have a couple left over and I can share with others so that they too can have a better dog. This is what most on this forum do. We are considered hobby breeders. We may have a litter once every couple of years. For those that breed everytime the female goes into heat, well you call that one. I'll call them BYB.

You know for those that have been reading all the post I'll just stop now. I'm just repeating myself. Those that don't read all have no clue. They pick and choose. Contender, support the BYB's if you would like, you have that right.


----------



## contender* (Jul 27, 2010)

Jerry L. Lyda said:


> Lee, Contender wasn't talking about you. He is talking to me the OP.
> 
> Contender, The idea of where I breed my dogs have nothing to do with this topic. The topic is BYB. That's only a term for what has been described as someone who breeds not for the betterment of a breed but for money only. NO WHERE have I said all breeders that breed their dogs are BYB. I have not gotten my litter yet but when I do Iwill try to better what I already have. Also I want to keep one for my training. And you know maybe I'll have a couple left over and I can share with others so that they too can have a better dog. This is what most on this forum do. We are considered hobby breeders. We may have a litter once every couple of years. For those that breed everytime the female goes into heat, well you call that one. I'll call them BYB.
> 
> You know for those that have been reading all the post I'll just stop now. I'm just repeating myself. Those that don't read all have no clue. They pick and choose. Contender, support the BYB's if you would like, you have that right.




I assume that by not answering the question that you do your breeding in the back yard. Maybe you should have put a little more thought into your hot headed rant before you posted it. 
I have read every post in this thread and feel the only reason you posted in the first place is to just stir the pot a little. As I posted before, I put more money and time in the pups that I have than I ever make. Feed, shots, wormer, keeping clean areas for the dogs and pups all take time and money. And guess what, it's all in my back yard. I don't do it to make a living as I assume you do.
By using the term "back yard breeder" you actually, whether you wanted to or not, put those of us that sell our dogs at a reasonable price and don't have a business license or run a training service a BYB. Especially to those that don't truly understand the classifications as you use them. 
Maybe next time you decide to post something like that you'll give a little thought to the post before you type it up.

[http://www.tercancollies.com/what_is_a_breeder.html


----------



## Jerry L. Lyda (Jul 27, 2010)

You still don't get it do you? I see that you are from the middle of nowhere and I believe you. You take what I say in my posts anyway you want, I simply don't care. You are just looking for an argument. Sorry not here. Stand behind the true BYB if you like. I don't do my breeding in the back yard. I guess that blows your assumption out the window now doesn't it.

I post under my real name, I wish everyone did.


----------



## lee hanson (Jul 27, 2010)

Jerry L. Lyda said:


> You still don't get it do you? I see that you are from the middle of nowhere and I believe you. You take what I say in my posts anyway you want, I simply don't care. You are just looking for an argument. Sorry not here. Stand behind the true BYB if you like. I don't do my breeding in the back yard. I guess that blows your assumption out the window now doesn't it.
> 
> I post under my real name, I wish everyone did.



if you dont breed at home and/ or your back yard where do you breed.....before you respond .let me say its not where you breed but what you breed that makes the breeder


----------



## lee hanson (Jul 27, 2010)

what does op stand for


----------



## contender* (Jul 27, 2010)

lee hanson said:


> if you dont breed at home and/ or your back yard where do you breed.....before you respond .let me say its not where you breed but what you breed that makes the breeder


----------



## contender* (Jul 27, 2010)

lee hanson said:


> what does op stand for



Original post or poster..


----------



## contender* (Jul 27, 2010)

Jerry L. Lyda said:


> You still don't get it do you? I see that you are from the middle of nowhere and I believe you.



HMM, First you take a shot at those of us that don't "breed for a living" then your gonna take a shot at me because I live in the sticks.. Your true colors showing???



Jerry L. Lyda said:


> You take what I say in my posts anyway you want, I simply don't care. You are just looking for an argument. Sorry not here. Stand behind the true BYB if you like.



Nope, not looking for an argument and I can tell you really do not care. Did you look through the link I posted, Nah didn't figure you did. I'm standing behind all the breeders that you felt it was your calling in life to belittle in your OP.





Jerry L. Lyda said:


> I post under my real name, I wish everyone did.


Not sure exactly what good that would do you. Maybe you think because I don't post under my real name that my posts don't carry any legitimacy. I don't post under my real name for personal reasons, most members on here don't. A lot of folks know me by my real name but I just don't care to have personal info posted on a public forum. You do, that's your preference.


----------



## TRKbeagles (Jul 27, 2010)

lee hanson said:


> if you dont breed at home and/ or your back yard where do you breed.....before you respond .let me say its not where you breed but what you breed that makes the breeder



careful this is a family orriented site.lol!!!


----------



## Jerry L. Lyda (Jul 27, 2010)

I took no shot at anyone that breeds for a living only at the BYB that make a living at taking advantage of others that think they are buying quality. The same people that are ruining the quality dogs as we know them, any breed. I'm not taking any shots at hobby breeders who breed to better the breed. If you are a BYB then I see where you are coming from and I'll excuse you. You don't need to stand behind BYB, you need to stand in front of them. I'm standing in front of the people that believe the way I do about BYB, never would I stand behind them.

I see why you don't post under your real name. You want to send it to me in a PM? LOL


----------



## UGA hunter (Jul 27, 2010)

I'm not going to get in the middle of anything but I'll just post something about Mr. Lyda. I've had the chance to know him for a few years, train dogs with him, and listen to him talk dogs a good bit. This man is the biggest dog advocate you'll find. He's trained dogs his entire life. He means well for any breed and I understand exactly where he is coming from with this post. Several people on here are not getting the point he is trying to make. Mr. Lyda is a great guy, a true dog advocate, and I would put my money on him that he knows as much if not more about any breed of dog and training than about 99% of the people on the GON forum. If you don't believe me, PM him, get his phone number, call him up, and talk dogs.  He's a great guy to talk to and will treat you how he'd want to be treated. That being said, I'm not going to argue with anyone and I'm not calling anyone out on this post.


----------



## lee hanson (Jul 27, 2010)

UGA hunter said:


> I'm not going to get in the middle of anything but I'll just post something about Mr. Lyda. I've had the chance to know him for a few years, train dogs with him, and listen to him talk dogs a good bit. This man is the biggest dog advocate you'll find. He's trained dogs his entire life. He means well for any breed and I understand exactly where he is coming from with this post. Several people on here are not getting the point he is trying to make. Mr. Lyda is a great guy, a true dog advocate, and I would put my money on him that he knows as much if not more about any breed of dog and training than about 99% of the people on the GON forum. If you don't believe me, PM him, get his phone number, call him up, and talk dogs.  He's a great guy to talk to and will treat you how he'd want to be treated. That being said, I'm not going to argue with anyone and I'm not calling anyone out on this post.



x2  i called him and  he breeds at home in his back yard .he told me when he says byb he don't intend to single out people that breed at home in there back   .but rather what is now know as byb which for most people when they hear byb  they think of  people that breed for profit not quality.which i to have  a problem with. don't you remember being told as Kidd to  give a 110%  that goes for breeding dog to if you not going to  do your best. then why do it.bottom line the price tag don't make the dog but  don't lower you breeding standers just  to make a profit cause that not a hobby that's is  puppy mill


----------



## coggins (Jul 27, 2010)

Just to throw my 2cents worth in.  I agree with Mr. Lyda, I don't think when he referenced BYB's he meant location.  I think he was referring to the posts we see where folks are selling pups off of females they know nothing about, dogs that are not trained, or trying to breed/stud dogs that are too young to even consider for this purpose.  I've bred dogs in my backyard however, I bred a GrNiteCh to a female I knew quite a bit about. I knew how they both hunted, how both their pedigree's looked, and felt they would be a nice cross.  We sold all but one dog and at 3yrs old she's a GrNiteCh, UKC World Qualified(with a 1st at Gray, GA) and took a 1st place NiteCH win at the 2010 Winter Classic on Friday night.  I just think Mr. Lyda was referring to the people that don't really give a rip what they're breeding as long as they can get 2$ and a cheese sandwich for a pup.  Those are the one's causing the issues, they're A LOT of very nice dogs out there that were bred in backyards but it wasn't by BYB's.


----------



## DarkKnight (Jul 28, 2010)

contender* said:


> I assume that by not answering the question that you do your breeding in the back yard. Maybe you should have put a little more thought into your hot headed rant before you posted it.
> I have read every post in this thread and feel the only reason you posted in the first place is to just stir the pot a little. As I posted before, I put more money and time in the pups that I have than I ever make. Feed, shots, wormer, keeping clean areas for the dogs and pups all take time and money. And guess what, it's all in my back yard. I don't do it to make a living as I assume you do.
> By using the term "back yard breeder" you actually, whether you wanted to or not, put those of us that sell our dogs at a reasonable price and don't have a business license or run a training service a BYB. Especially to those that don't truly understand the classifications as you use them.
> Maybe next time you decide to post something like that you'll give a little thought to the post before you type it up.
> ...



Looks to me like (according to the link contender* posted above) everyone here agrees what constitutes a good breeder versus a bad breeder. The problem is the op generalized practically all breeders that aren't in the business to breed as Back Yard Breeders. Seems to me the term "puppy mill" would have been sufficient to use to describe the bad breeders, whether they breed several breeds or just one. From the link above;
http://www.tercancollies.com/what_is_a_breeder.html
The "Puppy Mill" Breeder
Volume is one aspect of this type of breeder but living conditions, testing, and motivation also play a part. The typical "miller" runs their operation like a business and profit is the only motivator. Volume is their key to success. There are, however, people with their families that may keep a small breeding colony of four or five females and one male and sell exclusively thru advertising...they seem to always have puppies on the ground or soon to be born.
I can see where the problem with the term BYB can arise as it generalizes all of us that have pups hitting the ground in our back yards. It's just not good for anyone. Maybe the OP should change his wording or delete this thread and make reference to puppy mills instead of BYB's, as everyone around here knows what Puppy mill refers to. JMO


----------



## contender* (Jul 28, 2010)

Jerry L. Lyda said:


> I don't do my breeding in the back yard. I guess that blows your assumption out the window now doesn't it.





lee hanson said:


> x2  i called him and  he breeds at home in his back yard .




HMMM, So which is it???


----------



## Jerry L. Lyda (Jul 28, 2010)

I am truely sorry if some took BYB as a pointing finger to them. As I have said over again in these posts that people that breed for the betterment of any breed is a hobby breeder. He has purpose other than the dollar. He may want to keep something out of that breeding to better his lines as a hobby breeder as Coggins has done and how many of us wants to do. You are not a BYB, you are a hobby breeder. Terminology may be different but I have said and explained what I mean by BYB. If you don't agree it doesn't matter. There's nothing more I can do to explain for your understanding. Now if you support what I call a BYB, you have that right. I don't agree. To retract what I've said, it want happen. I stand by my principles and what I feel is a BYB. Puppy Mill is just a larger scale BYB.


----------



## Jerry L. Lyda (Jul 28, 2010)

Contender, I breed my dogs in a kennel with candle light, a little Barry White. Some wine in a silver bowl and a little cheese.

You think that could be why no pups have been produced LOL

Now that's funny I don't care who you are. LOLOLOLOL


----------



## lee hanson (Jul 28, 2010)

contender* said:


> HMMM, So which is it???



 i believe he has two females.he does his breeding at home not a privet setting. from talking with him he seem to be a good guy . i think you  took what he said the wrong  way .that or you just like   why don't you just give him a call


----------



## lee hanson (Jul 28, 2010)

there are other words that describe certain things when you say that word some fill it wrong.but as soon as you hear it you know what they are talking a bout .right or wrong if you  use a word or say some thing and others can identify what you are talking about then it some how correct.now can we get back on topic?byb  has be come a way to  describe certain breeding standers and or ethics.is it the best? i think they could call it some thing else syb lol but they don't .so if you don't  fit there definition of byb then why be offended


----------



## manning (Jul 28, 2010)

*breeders*

everyone think about this 70 years ago when are grandparents were breeding dogs they were all bred in the back yard,front yard on the roof were ever, i breed and raise around 5 litters of beagle pups a year and yes i sale a few but keep most until they are 7-10 months old and then i cull the ones i dont want, i have seen junk come from some of the top breeders there is and seen fc come from some of these "backyard breeders" yall talk about, it dont matter were the dogs are bred and who breeds the dogs as long as the pups are taken care of, and its up to each person as to were they buy a pup if you dont like the persons set up or breeding dont buy the pup but dont talk down about them, threads like this are the reasons we are starting to have problems with peta and animal rights activist that surely monitor this site its simple " if everyone minded there on business then the world would have nothing to complain about" thanks and hope i didnt affend anyone


----------



## maker4life (Jul 28, 2010)

Why is it so hard for folks to understand that the term "back yard breeders" isn't meant to be taken literaly ?


----------



## lee hanson (Jul 28, 2010)

does any on here not breed  at there home  or  the home of the other dog.


----------



## Jerry L. Lyda (Jul 28, 2010)

Manning you aren't listen either. I'll try to help you understand.

Off subject: If we minded our own business how many illegal aliens would we have over running our country. If we minded our business where would Hitler be? Just asking. If we don't mind our business with these back yard breedings we will loose some of our breeds through BSL. I'm not talking about hobby breeders. I'm talking about profit breeders that put dogs in the public that have bad nerves and will bite because of fear.

70 years ago our grandparents that were breeding dogs were doing it to better the breed. If they were doing it just to make a profit then they too were BYB (or another term) breeders only for profit.

Manning from what you wrote about yourself, you are a hobby breed, like me.

PS: just for the record, I take my females to the back yard of the males. Not my back yard. LOL


----------



## lee hanson (Jul 28, 2010)

Jerry L. Lyda said:


> This one thing that I have to get off my chest.
> 
> You byb do it for the money and nothing more. You could care less about your choosen breed. You have a female or two and breed every chance you get. You don't care about the genetics that you are adding back to the gene pool. You are breeding dogs that are not proven and you give no quarantees for your pups. You sell cheap in order to turn the dollar. You don't care what you reproduce, for again it's for the money that you put in your pocket. I see you as a small scale puppy mill. People should know what they are getting from you when they purchase your pups. Yes you will sell your pups but for the responsible breeders out there, they do not thank you for your crap you are producing. Good breeders breed in order to better that breed and in doing so their profit margine is not as good as yours but they do have a much more quality pup.
> 
> Sorry guys , just had to vent. Now back to our regular program.





Jerry L. Lyda said:


> I can just see it now. "BSL"
> 
> The government taking our dogs like they ARE doing in other countries. Why because of irresponsible owners and BREEDERS. Nerve bag dogs that are fear bites. Then our guns are next. It happened in other countries because the people let it happen. When you don't think it can't happen here to me that is funny. Makes as you called it Gestapo breeding sound like the thing to do. Don't worry though because that type of breeding practices will never happen. We can't get people to stand together. The AKC and the NRA can't do it alone. They need us.





SouthernBeagles said:


> I agree! This is why I am against the banning of Pit Bulls and other so called dangerous breeds even though I personally would never own one. I think the owners should be held liable for their dogs and it should be harsh! But you can't blame an entire breed on the bad apples.
> You also can't hold all back yard breeders accountable because of a few bad apples. Not all of these people that breed their pets once or twice a year are evil or careless or greedy or bad. Some are just not educated to the health issues or propper health care for their breeds. They know not what they do! All they know is they have nice dogs and they are expensive and they can breed these two together and sell some pups to help pay bills! Money is a good thing when you don't have much! I don't have a problem with that! I would rather educate them on the propper way to go about it and educate them on what to look out for genetically with their breed, than to group them all together and call them irresponsible and greedy. They do have puppy lemon laws to hold them responsible.



maybe this will help us get back on topic..........if your not breeding to better the  breed then YOU ARE CRAPY BREEDER AND YOU ARE DESTOYING OTHERS HARD WORK AND THE DOGS


----------



## lee hanson (Jul 28, 2010)

manning said:


> everyone think about this 70 years ago when are grandparents were breeding dogs they were all bred in the back yard,front yard on the roof were ever, i breed and raise around 5 litters of beagle pups a year and yes i sale a few but keep most until they are 7-10 months old and then i cull the ones i dont want, i have seen junk come from some of the top breeders there is and seen fc come from some of these "backyard breeders" yall talk about, it dont matter were the dogs are bred and who breeds the dogs as long as the pups are taken care of, and its up to each person as to were they buy a pup if you dont like the persons set up or breeding dont buy the pup but dont talk down about them, threads like this are the reasons we are starting to have problems with peta and animal rights activist that surely monitor this site its simple " if everyone minded there on business then the world would have nothing to complain about" thanks and hope i didnt affend anyone



 i think if some one is doing  some thing  that  in dangers your breed.wither it health or bsl it is you business i Dael with this every day in my breed  me and my dogs pay  for others mistakes


----------



## contender* (Jul 28, 2010)

The owner of the dog has the right to do as they please.. You guys start this stuff but don't understand where your going to end up. Some folks feel it's wrong to hunt hogs with dogs, deer with dogs, rabbits with dogs. Just because YOU don't agree with what someone else is doing doesn't make it wrong. There are a lot of folks out there pushing for breeding license, banning of certain breeds, banning of hunting, banning of guns, just because THEY think it's wrong. They start running their big trap and end up with a large group of people backing them. Pretty soon what was once the business of the individual becomes the business of the government and then ends up being illegal. This started out as a free country, with individuals being responsible for their own actions. It has BECOME a country where everyone has their noses in everyone else' business. I ain't gonna point fingers but some of you guys need t to start thinkin before you go running off at the mouth.

Be careful what you wish for, it may end up biting you in the butt.


----------



## grouper throat (Jul 28, 2010)

Jerry- I see your point about referring to these people as BYB. Do you think most of these dogs are what I refer to as "pen bred" or the female was accidently bred and they are just trying to make some money off them? I don't really see anyone making much for their efforts IMO wether it's a registered dog or a mutt. 

I'm like a normal hound hunter, I only bred when I need a few good pups and I cull when they aren't progressing to my standards. Some of these hound hunters on here I see as an embarassment to hunters like me by selling culls, accidental bred pups, etc. like you are hinting around at... but I see no need in regulating dog breeding either.


----------



## lee hanson (Jul 28, 2010)

grouper throat said:


> jerry- i see your point about referring to these people as byb. Do you think most of these dogs are what i refer to as "pen bred" or the female was accidently bred and they are just trying to make some money off them? I don't really see anyone making much for their efforts imo wether it's a registered dog or a mutt.
> 
> I'm like a normal hound hunter, i only bred when i need a few good pups and i cull when they aren't progressing to my standards. Some of these hound hunters on here i see as an embarassment to hunters like me by selling culls, accidental bred pups, etc. Like you are hinting around at... But i see no need in regulating dog breeding either.



am not for more goverment at all


----------



## Jerry L. Lyda (Jul 28, 2010)

Education is the key. I think Julia H or K9sar said it. You can laed a horse to water but you can't make him drink.  Educate as many as you can and for those that don't listen you pass them by. By doing nothing we could loose our right to bear arms. It's worst day than yesterday with our government. it's up to us to do things right so that the government won't step in and we must stick together.

In Europe now you can't crop and dock. You will be find and jailed. There's many dogs on the BSL that if we don't stand up we will loose them. Nerve bags is what I call them, dangerous dogs. Proper breeding prevents a % of this and every little bit helps. Responcible owners plays a huge part. Education, education, education. I will voice my opinion every chance I get and in doing so I would hope that the hunters out there would do the same. My dog today your hunter tomorrow.


----------



## JuliaH (Jul 28, 2010)

I am not for regulating dog breeding either, but the twice yearly inspections by the state person DO cull out some of the worse breeders simply because the dogs are not always kept in good clean conditions... although a lot go unnoticed because no one has reported them. Kinda like cleanliness in restaurants, etc. to me... 

To be fair, there are plenty of folks out there who breed, take real good care of their animals and are not state licensed as well... not sure what the best answer would be. I wish I had one though 

I bred my Brittanys again this year, and the pups will help pay for such things as hip x-rays coming up next month for one of my good females, a trip out west with the trainer for my male GSP (it's his futurity year and he needs more work and some more points toward his FC too), vaccinations and my deworming products. Sometimes, to be honest, I need a litter to help with expenses 

So, we do have to be careful not to attempt to lump everyone in the same basket or call them backyard breeders, puppy mills, etc.  There are plenty of those, and I don't deal with them or sell my dogs into those sorts of situations, but there are plenty of people who want a family dog that can be a good weekend hunter, etc. as well   I am a serious hobbyist and everything I do is planned. No dog can get to any of my girls unless I let them get together 

I come from a background of breeding horses, and that has been very helpful. 

Things like good nutrition, a good deworming program, enough exercise, training, a good vet on the list of people we trust, and more, as we think of them, will help all of us. 

I have read, and posted to, this thread with interest. It is always for the benefit of the animal... or should be   I hope we are working toward beneficial conversations and toward helping one another learn more about breeding. There are reasons that many experienced breeders call it an "art" rather than just a manner of income 

Julia


----------



## lee hanson (Jul 28, 2010)

Jerry L. Lyda said:


> Education is the key. I think Julia H or K9sar said it. You can laed a horse to water but you can't make him drink.  Educate as many as you can and for those that don't listen you pass them by. By doing nothing we could loose our right to bear arms. It's worst day than yesterday with our government. it's up to us to do things right so that the government won't step in and we must stick together.
> 
> In Europe now you can't crop and dock. You will be find and jailed. There's many dogs on the BSL that if we don't stand up we will loose them. Nerve bags is what I call them, dangerous dogs. Proper breeding prevents a % of this and every little bit helps. Responcible owners plays a huge part. Education, education, education. I will voice my opinion every chance I get and in doing so I would hope that the hunters out there would do the same. My dog today your hunter tomorrow.


----------



## manning (Jul 29, 2010)

*dogs*

i am totally against puppy mills and they all should be shut down but whats gonna happen is when they start monitoring everyone that breeds or raises pups they are either gonna come up with a way to tax us,make us buy a bunch of unneeded permits or just shut us all down that dont have these things and i know a bunch of real good breeders that breed grade dogs for hunting they are some of the best hunting dogs i have seen but they are grade so if they sale i pup they are lucky to get $100.00 for them and after shots and worming they almost have that much in them i say keep the gov out of it and the best way to stop these breeders is to stop buying from them if they cant sale there product they will stop breeding


----------



## JuliaH (Jul 29, 2010)

Me too manning, against puppy mills, but you will find that most of them raise AKC or CKC (Continental Kennel Club) or Dog Registry of America or other such. There are even registries now for mixed breed (grade) dogs. Ugh.


The gov't is already into licensing and inspection of kennels, etc. 

Check out the link under Animal Protection...

http://agr.georgia.gov/portal/site/...toid=b74e733860a06210VgnVCM100000bf01020aRCRD

or if that link doesn't work go to 

http://agr.georgia.gov/portal/site/AGR/

then look at Divisions, Animal Industry, Animal Protection 

Then there are a lot more links to check out what is already in place...

Julia


----------



## Cam (Jul 29, 2010)

Jerry L. Lyda said:


> In Europe now you can't crop and dock. You will be find and jailed. There's many dogs on the BSL that if we don't stand up we will loose them. Nerve bags is what I call them, dangerous dogs. Proper breeding prevents a % of this and every little bit helps. Responcible owners plays a huge part. Education, education, education. I will voice my opinion every chance I get and in doing so I would hope that the hunters out there would do the same. My dog today your hunter tomorrow.


I don't agree that only education is key! It's a start, but there are tons of informed or educated breeders who don't give a hoot about using knowledge for the right purposes. ETHICS is imo more crucial, but you can't teach ethics. It's part of upbringing by parents, but some people plainly don't care at all about anything else but themselves. This attitude often encroaches on or even steps over the boundaries of ethics toward other people and society, as well as toward animals (in this case: dogs). 

You can implement ethics in dog breeding by rules and regulations with fines, reprimands, penalties, or exclusion from breeding, like with the legal system, sports, clubs, even this discussion forum. 
However..... most socalled 'reputable' breeders claim to breed ethically, but as soon as breeding rules, which is allegedly done already by these breeders, are proposed, the same breeders usually hollar and scream the loudest to be opposed to any restrictions.


----------



## Tim1980 (Jul 29, 2010)

> I don't agree that only education is key! It's a start, but there are tons of informed or educated breeders who don't give a hoot about using knowledge for the right purposes. ETHICS is imo more crucial, but you can't teach ethics. It's part of upbringing by parents, but some people plainly don't care at all about anything else but themselves. This attitude often encroaches on or even steps over the boundaries of ethics toward other people and society, as well as toward animals (in this case: dogs).



I totally agree!!!  Ethics are taught in a person's upbringing by there parents and grandparents.  It seems the older America gets the more selfish idiotic people we have around us.  Don't get me wrong I love America, but they just don't make'em like they used to.  Not as many, anyway!!


----------



## JuliaH (Jul 29, 2010)

Well said!



Tim1980 said:


> I totally agree!!! Ethics are taught in a person's upbringing by there parents and grandparents. It seems the older America gets the more selfish idiotic people we have around us. Don't get me wrong I love America, but they just don't make'em like they used to. Not as many, anyway!!


----------



## grouper throat (Jul 29, 2010)

manning said:


> i am totally against puppy mills and they all should be shut down but whats gonna happen is when they start monitoring everyone that breeds or raises pups they are either gonna come up with a way to tax us,make us buy a bunch of unneeded permits or just shut us all down that dont have these things and i know a bunch of real good breeders that breed grade dogs for hunting they are some of the best hunting dogs i have seen but they are grade so if they sale i pup they are lucky to get $100.00 for them and after shots and worming they almost have that much in them i say keep the gov out of it and the best way to stop these breeders is to stop buying from them if they cant sale there product they will stop breeding



I think most of these grade dogs coming from local hunting bloodlines (like all my deer dogs) will not be stopped, they just won't be advertised for sale. Not many are for sale around here anyway, most litters are split up and given away (i.e. planned pregnancies). The only hunters this will seem to hurt IMO are the irresponsible ones who breed inferior genetics that no one really wants.


----------



## YodelDogs (Jul 29, 2010)

maker4life said:


> Why is it so hard for folks to understand that the term "back yard breeders" isn't meant to be taken literaly ?



I was wondering the same thing?

My own personal definition of a BYB (backyard breeder) is someone whose _*knowledge*_ does not extend past their own backyard. BYBs are not evil people who set out to ruin the world but rather people who are ignorant about responsibilities associated with dog breeding. They may love their family pet and think having puppies might be fun so they breed her. Or maybe they think they can make a few dollars by having a litter. But, they are unaware of breed related health issues so they do not do any health testing like hip x-rays or eye exams. They are unaware of the importance of researching pedigrees and will not know that there may be critical health or temperament issues there. They may provide a clean, healthy, loving home for the pups where they are well socialized and taken to the vet or they may not. They do not always know how to screen homes and often make very poor decisions about where there puppies go. They do not know about, or care about, the use of limited registration or contracts that have the new owners alter their pet. The BYB may not have had any bad intentions but their actions are at the base of the problem with pet overpopulation and the sheer number of homeless dogs across the US.


----------



## Jerry L. Lyda (Jul 29, 2010)

Amen, thanks that's a great post YodelDogs. 

I want to thank many of you for the PM's and  maybe this thread opened some eyes to what the terminology of what BYB really is. It's not you guys. Most of you are doing the right thing and are hobby breeders. I said most but I bet it's all of you guys.

Take a quick look at how many views this thread has had. We all may not agree but we had a good number reading. I believe it's good for debates like this to get others to thinking. We will never get anything done if we don't talk about it.


----------



## lee hanson (Jul 29, 2010)

Cam said:


> I don't agree that only education is key! It's a start, but there are tons of informed or educated breeders who don't give a hoot about using knowledge for the right purposes. ETHICS is imo more crucial, but you can't teach ethics. It's part of upbringing by parents, but some people plainly don't care at all about anything else but themselves. This attitude often encroaches on or even steps over the boundaries of ethics toward other people and society, as well as toward animals (in this case: dogs).
> 
> You can implement ethics in dog breeding by rules and regulations with fines, reprimands, penalties, or exclusion from breeding, like with the legal system, sports, clubs, even this discussion forum.
> However..... most socalled 'reputable' breeders claim to breed ethically, but as soon as breeding rules, which is allegedly done already by these breeders, are proposed, the same breeders usually hollar and scream the loudest to be opposed to any restrictions.



laws want help ever year more and more laws are made .but the crime rate just keeps growing.i think the world should just have one rule don't be stupid or in danger others  and you want be in danger(eye for an eye) the punishment should fit the crime if a person beats his wife or dog ect then they should be kicked around not slapped  on the wrist. like mike  Vick  rather then having him talk to kids they  should have taken him up to the court square.then they should have done every thing to him that he had done to those poor dogs. then other would  say hey i don't want  no part  in that . but  they don't do  that  they just give out fines  so the state can make money and  a little jail time.


----------



## lee hanson (Jul 29, 2010)

YodelDogs said:


> I was wondering the same thing?
> 
> My own personal definition of a BYB (backyard breeder) is someone whose _*knowledge*_ does not extend past their own backyard. BYBs are not evil people who set out to ruin the world but rather people who are ignorant about responsibilities associated with dog breeding. They may love their family pet and think having puppies might be fun so they breed her. Or maybe they think they can make a few dollars by having a litter. But, they are unaware of breed related health issues so they do not do any health testing like hip x-rays or eye exams. They are unaware of the importance of researching pedigrees and will not know that there may be critical health or temperament issues there. They may provide a clean, healthy, loving home for the pups where they are well socialized and taken to the vet or they may not. They do not always know how to screen homes and often make very poor decisions about where there puppies go. They do not know about, or care about, the use of limited registration or contracts that have the new owners alter their pet. The BYB may not have had any bad intentions but their actions are at the base of the problem with pet overpopulation and the sheer number of homeless dogs across the US.


----------



## contender* (Jul 30, 2010)

lee hanson said:


> laws want help ever year more and more laws are made .but the crime rate just keeps growing.i think the world should just have one rule don't be stupid or in danger others  and you want be in danger(eye for an eye) the punishment should fit the crime if a person beats his wife or dog ect then they should be kicked around not slapped  on the wrist. like mike  Vick  rather then having him talk to kids they  should have taken him up to the court square.then they should have done every thing to him that he had done to those poor dogs. then other would  say hey i don't want  no part  in that . but  they don't do  that  they just give out fines  so the state can make money and  a little jail time.



I agree there should be a law against stupidity and I also agree there should be an eye for an eye type of law. If you rape someone, the punishment should be the same X2.
However, I'm not sure I agree with the Vick statement. Animals aren't human..


----------



## quackwacker (Jul 30, 2010)

I've been trying to make this point for years.  Most folks have never seen an older dog with hip problems.  If they had they would think twice before breeding just anything.

Boykins are the up and coming breed.  Anyone with a male and female can make a buck on them and they are trying.  Now that the AKC is registering them its going to get worse.

Great Thread Jerry!


----------



## brownhounds (Aug 27, 2010)

Lets keep it in realty.  Its just a dog.  I cant stand the attitude people are starting to take on dogs.  They treat them better than their child.  Doggy insurance, car seats for dogs, haircuts, clothes.  I even saw a guy the other day riding a bicycle with his speedos while he was running his dog on a leash.  I love the olden days when a dog just layed around outside.  You didnt pen them up, and all they ate was table scraps.  

Its there nature to breed.  Its not their nature to be groomed daily, jump on the furniture, ride in a car seat, and sit behind a bicycler.  Let em go.


----------



## K9SAR (Aug 30, 2010)

brownhounds said:


> I love the olden days when a dog just layed around outside.  You didnt pen them up, and all they ate was table scraps.



We've wisened up since "the olden days."  Now we know that doing some of the things that had been done in the past was killing our dogs.

The Ausdauerprufung (AD which we will be doing this Fall) is a 12-mile bike ride with the dog heeling beside the bicycle and then after which an obedience run through.  No...I won't wear Speedos.  Perhaps the guy was training for the AD? Who knows. I'd rather have someone cycling with their dog and exercising it then letting the dog sit around and tear up a couch due to boredom and lack of exercise. 

For what it's worth, the OFA has been around for a little over 40 years.


----------

