# True vs pseudo-christians in U.S.?



## Artfuldodger (Feb 1, 2012)

Is the U.S. a true Christian nation today? I'm not talking about our forefathers beliefs. Do you think most people in the U.S. that say they are Christians really are? I think Muslim countries view of us is based on what they view us as compared to what we really are. They view us as Institutionalized Christians. We view them as true Muslims when in fact they are mostly Institutionalized Muslims. I often hear conversations like" I'm Jewish or Catholic but i don't practice the religion. I've also heard "I'm a Christian(true Christian). I thought Jesus said "You are either with me or against me" leading me to believe if you are not a true Christian then you're not one.

http://thetruechristian.net/


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## mossyback8874 (Feb 2, 2012)

Good question.  There are LOT of people who identify themselves as Christians that have no relationship with the Lord.  I've heard it called the Americanization of Christianity.  On Sundays, many, many people play church, and the other 6 days there is no evidence of their faith.  One problem is that children over the last few decades have seen there parents have a shallow relationship with the Lord and the children adopt the same attitude.  I don't feel comfortable questioning anyone's salvation, but the plain truth is that we, as a whole in America that identify ourselves as Christians, don't fear the Lord and refuse to submit our will and be obedient.


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## gtparts (Feb 2, 2012)

mossyback8874 said:


> Good question.  There are LOT of people who identify themselves as Christians that have no relationship with the Lord.  I've heard it called the Americanization of Christianity.  On Sundays, many, many people play church, and the other 6 days there is no evidence of their faith.  One problem is that children over the last few decades have seen there parents have a shallow relationship with the Lord and the children adopt the same attitude.  I don't feel comfortable questioning anyone's salvation, but the plain truth is that we, as a whole in America that identify ourselves as Christians, don't fear the Lord and refuse to submit our will and be obedient.



I'll take liberties with the original quote from "The Wizard of Oz".

"Ain't t the truth... ain't it the (sad) truth!"

      ----- Cowardly Lion ----


Observation tells me that there are many who have gone to the All-You-Care-To-Take Christian Buffet and left the Bread of Life right where they found it, then wonder why they are still hungry when the only thing on their plate is a temporal morsel or two.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 2, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> http://thetruechristian.net/



Interesting website.

From their "Philosophy" page come these words of wisdom:


_The "Christian Right" is neither. 

Religion should open your mind, not close your heart. 

True Christians lead simple and nonmaterialistic lives. 

True Christians care for God's Earth.

True Christians are environmentalists.

Jesus would have supported the Sierra Club. 

Corporate America is the worst ecoterrorist. 

Charlton Heston should have stayed where he belonged--
The Planet of the Apes.

Overpopulation is killing us.

One man's cult is another man's religion.

School shootings -- the NRA's school class size reduction plan?

Beware another Bush war for oil._


I guess I'm not a true Christian.


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## Huntinfool (Feb 2, 2012)

and....the Unitarian Universalist Church is listed under "helpful links".

I'm with you CF...apparently you and I are going to be awefully hot for an awefully long time brotha.

To answer the question, no, most people in the U.S. who claim to be Christians are not followers of Christ.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 2, 2012)

Since the link was to a Universalist site does that make all the info. there useless? Do you not agree with the true Christian page after reading the philosophy page?


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## gtparts (Feb 2, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Since the link was to a Universalist site does that make all the info. there useless? Do you not agree with the true Christian page after reading the philosophy page?



There is enough wrong that I would not rely on any of it or recommend it to others.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 2, 2012)

It's not the "UU thing" that bothers me.  It's the philosophy itself I disagree with.


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## Huntinfool (Feb 2, 2012)

It is the UU thing that bothers me and yes, the philosophy they put up there has absolutely nothing to do with whether a person is a true follower of Christ.

From that link:



> In addition to holding different beliefs on spiritual topics, individual Unitarian Universalists may also identify with and draw inspiration from Atheism and Agnosticism, Buddhism, Christianity, Humanism, Judaism, Paganism, and other religious or philosophical traditions.






> Today Unitarian Universalism is a non-creedal faith which allows individual Unitarian Universalists the freedom to search for truth on many paths





> Unitarian Universalism has become widely known for affirming and working toward recognition and rights for gay and lesbian relationships.




Yes.......YES.....the UU thing bothers me.  What's ironic and sad at the same time is that someone who is obviously associated with the UU "church" put that website up and THINKS that he/she is a "true Christian".


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 2, 2012)

I don't follow the beliefs of Unitarian Universalism. I didn't even notice it was there site. I just read the true Christian page and thought it sounded like a pretty good list. I think i can read almost anything and find good and bad parts even the Koran.


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## Huntinfool (Feb 2, 2012)

That's the point.  You have to be on guard for where you draw your source of truth from.  You quoted that website as a good definition of "true Christian" and that website is entirely based on the beliefs of the UU church...which is entirely un-"true Christian" is almost everything it believes.

There is only one source of truth.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 2, 2012)

I'll agree, i'm new at this religious debating even though someone thinks i've been on here a long time. I'll find a better link or just make my on list.


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## Sterlo58 (Feb 2, 2012)

So who amongst us makes the judgement as to wether someone is a true or a psuedo-Christian ?    

Just sayin'


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## stringmusic (Feb 2, 2012)

Sterlo58 said:


> So who amongst us makes the judgement as to wether someone is a true or a psuedo-Christian ?
> 
> Just sayin'



The word of God.

Just sayin'


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## Sterlo58 (Feb 2, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> The word of God.
> 
> Just sayin'



Actually...God makes the judgement. Some on here seem to be making that judgement themselves.
Just sayin


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## Jeff Phillips (Feb 2, 2012)

Sterlo58 said:


> Just sayin



Yep


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## mossyback8874 (Feb 2, 2012)

Sterlo58 said:


> Actually...God makes the judgement. Some on here seem to be making that judgement themselves.
> Just sayin



I think it's more of an observation for most than judgment.    Scripture says you will know us by the fruit we bear.  It's not hard to differentiate between an apple tree and a pine tree.  In this example, you can call a tree an apple tree all you want, but if it continues to produce pine cones, at some point you have to call it a pine tree.  Same with a Christian, if someone says they are one but there is no evidence in their daily lives, an observation would be that the person really isn't.  The problem is people don't either read the bible, or they don't believe it.  No one is perfect, I fall far short of where I need to be, but it doesn't stop me from trying.  Just because God gives us grace doesn't mean grace should abound.  I've got plenty of co-workers, acquaintances, and friends that say grace over every meal, show up to Church on Sunday mornings, and pray only when things go wrong, but these are the same guys that are unfaithful in their marriage, get drunk on a regular basis, spew one cuss word after another in every conversation, and the list goes on.  I'm not trying to come across as self-righteous, but for people to not even TRY, it's not judgment, it's just an observation that leads you to a logical conclusion, apple trees produce apples, pine trees produce pine cones. Pretty simple really.


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## Jeff Phillips (Feb 2, 2012)

mossyback8874 said:


> Pretty simple really.



Pretty judgemental really...

No man knows the heart of another. God knows our hearts.


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## JB0704 (Feb 2, 2012)

mossyback8874 said:


> I think it's more of an observation for most than judgment.    Scripture says you will know us by the fruit we bear.  It's not hard to differentiate between an apple tree and a pine tree.  In this example, you can call a tree an apple tree all you want, but if it continues to produce pine cones, at some point you have to call it a pine tree.  Same with a Christian, if someone says they are one but there is no evidence in their daily lives, an observation would be that the person really isn't.  The problem is people don't either read the bible, or they don't believe it.  No one is perfect, I fall far short of where I need to be, but it doesn't stop me from trying.  Just because God gives us grace doesn't mean grace should abound.  I've got plenty of co-workers, acquaintances, and friends that say grace over every meal, show up to Church on Sunday mornings, and pray only when things go wrong, but these are the same guys that are unfaithful in their marriage, get drunk on a regular basis, spew one cuss word after another in every conversation, and the list goes on.  I'm not trying to come across as self-righteous, but for people to not even TRY, it's not judgment, it's just an observation that leads you to a logical conclusion, apple trees produce apples, pine trees produce pine cones. Pretty simple really.



Galatians 5:22-26
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. 


We talk about the "fruit," but how many of us exhibit what the Bible calls "fruit?"  I am guilty as the next, the Lord knows I am nowhere near perfect.  But I do know that "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control" are not the virtues I often see exhibited within the faith.

Now, how many of us, myself included, can say we exhibit these fruits on a regular basis?


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## mossyback8874 (Feb 2, 2012)

Jeff Phillips said:


> Pretty judgemental really...
> 
> No man knows the heart of another. God knows our hearts.



Jeff, maybe I came across wrong, and you are correct that we don't know men's hearts.  As I said, I fall short many times and in many ways.  I don't back off how I feel about this issue, mainly because we have the next generation watching everything we do and we (me included) seem to be falling short in how serious we take our walk with the Lord.  I've read a lot of your posts and even if I don't know you, I respect what you say because of the way you come across on the various boards in this forum.  I guess I don't mean to come off as judgmental (even though I may), I just get frustrated because I see what the Lord has done in my life after I decided to TRY to submit my will to his, and I want that for everyone else.  Sometimes I come across a little zealous, but I've been on the other side of the fence doing all the things I mentioned in my earlier post, and if I'm being honest, even though I considered myself a Christian, I wasn't (just going off of my experience).  My life stunk, my marriage was in shambles, I was an awful dad because of my selfish desires, alcohol almost costs me my career, I could go on and on, but once I took my relationship with the Lord serious, everything in my life turned around, mainly because I chose to use scripture as a road map for my life.  Things are definitely not perfect now, far from it, but there is a peace in walking with the Lord.  Like I said, I just get frustrated with the people around me because I want that for them in their everyday life.  When you realize your only reason for existence is to honor and glorify God, clarity starts to set in.  Not insinuating that you don't honor and glorify him, just making a statement about myself.


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## mossyback8874 (Feb 2, 2012)

JB, as far as the scripture you quoted (Galations), you are right about those that are mentioned.  To go a step further, reference Matthew 7:16-23, and also Colossians 1:6.  In Matthew 7, it addresses exactly what this thread is about and is pretty clear.  That's the great thing about scripture, it helps us keep our opinions out of things like this, the answer is in the book.  I admit, I don't do a good job keeping my opinion out sometimes though.  To answer your specific question at the end of your post, I don't always exhibit those traits mentioned in Galations, I think we are all a work in progress, indeterminately.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 2, 2012)

The Christian.

Romans 8:
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 

9 ......you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. ..............

 12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.


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## Jeff Phillips (Feb 3, 2012)

mossyback8874 said:


> Jeff, maybe I came across wrong, and you are correct that we don't know men's hearts.



I shouldn't have quoted you on my post when I wanted address this whole thread, sorry. 

The whole idea that we can decide who is a  "true Christian" is judgemental. We are clearly instructed not to judge.

Saved is saved! True vs pseudo is not for man to decide...


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## hummerpoo (Feb 3, 2012)

Jeff Phillips said:


> I shouldn't have quoted you on my post when I wanted address this whole thread, sorry.
> 
> The whole idea that we can decide who is a  "true Christian" is judgemental. We are clearly instructed not to judge.
> 
> Saved is saved! True vs pseudo is not for man to decide...



I'm not sure that we disagree, but I would suggest that the point of Mat. 7 is to tell us how to judge within the context of discipleship.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 3, 2012)

The main question was: Is the United States a Christian nation just because most people in it say they are. 
As for as judging people, the link below is interesting and before anyone calls me on it, the church believes in pre-election, i don't. But i still believe in Jesus.
http://www.letgodbetrue.com/introduction/faq/judge.htm


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## Huntinfool (Feb 3, 2012)

> We are clearly instructed not to judge.



I'm sorry....that is, wholesale, not true.  It's a common claim among Christians.  But it is un-true.

We are called to judge other brothers in sisters.  Not sit in judgement of their soul.  But we are called to judge their life and keep them accountable to the faith the claim.  It's very clear.

No, absolutely, we are not the judge of someone's soul.  But, if they claim to be a follower of Christ, there is no way around the fact that we are called to make judgement on their actions and behaviors in order to encourage them further in santification.

We need to make sure of where we stand before and when we do so....without a doubt.


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## JB0704 (Feb 3, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> But, if they claim to be a follower of Christ, there is no way around the fact that we are called to make judgement on their actions and behaviors in order to encourage them further in santification.



One day, I would love for one of you guys to start a thread on sanctification for "dummies" like me.  It is a concept / process I had never heard of until I started posting on here.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 3, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> One day, I would love for one of you guys to start a thread on sanctification for "dummies" like me.  It is a concept / process I had never heard of until I started posting on here.



Really?  You got through Liberty U without hearing that term?


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## JB0704 (Feb 3, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Really?  You got through Liberty U without hearing that term?



Yep, but I only took OT and NT survey, and theology 104.  I didn't take any in depth courses on Christianity.  I was in a business program.  Also, in those classes, I was just there for the grade, so I may have missed a point or two


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## Huntinfool (Feb 3, 2012)

If I had it figured out, I'd tell you.  

What I do know is that "The Bible says don't judge" is wrong and is typically a cop-out that Christians use so that other Christians don't point out the things in their life that they know are wrong but want to continue doing without guilt or shame.

Trust me...I've been there....many times.


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## JB0704 (Feb 3, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Really?  You got through Liberty U without hearing that term?



And, I have heard the term, just not in the context used here, as if it is a process we are all going through.  All I knew was get saved, live for Jesus.

But y'all talk about it as if it is a tour we all take with something at the end.  And yes, I got through LU without ever hearing the word sanctification used in that context.


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## Huntinfool (Feb 3, 2012)

Hopefully it was spoken and 19-21 year old ears just weren't listening.  I know mine probably wouldn't have been!


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## Sterlo58 (Feb 3, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> I'm sorry....that is, wholesale, not true.  It's a common claim among Christians.  But it is un-true.
> 
> We are called to judge other brothers in sisters.  Not sit in judgement of their soul.  But we are called to judge their life and keep them accountable to the faith the claim.  It's very clear.
> 
> ...



We will have to agree to disagree on this one my friend.


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## thedeacon (Feb 3, 2012)

Is the U.S. a true Christian nation today?

The soup of the day. 

Sometimes I think we are too critical of
our fellow man and we need to center more on ourselves.

And then sometimes I think that we are not critical enough.
I know we should stand for the truth and never waver.

I have found in my past years of judgement of others that
sometimes people are doing the best that they can and
we just have to love them and have patience with them,
but you ask about our country. 

I guess our country starts with one person at a time. To
use the word true Christians to describe that many 
millians of people is difficult. The intent of our laws have
a Christian intention as a whole but.

I don't think we can concern ourselves with that large a 
group. We have to live a True Christian life and try to
make it a contagious life that others want to follow.

Read in your bible and see what it says True Religion or 
what does it mean to truly follow God. Its easy to find and
It is really more simple than we make it seem.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 3, 2012)

Thanks Deacon for you answer. I like the "contagious life" comment.


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## JB0704 (Feb 3, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> Hopefully it was spoken and 19-21 year old ears just weren't listening.  I know mine probably wouldn't have been!



It was a while back.  I'm sure it was spoken.  You never know, I may have written a few papers on it and forgotten by now. Any information relevant to that was probably replaced with IFRS, US GAAP, and SOX. New information in....old information out.


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## Huntinfool (Feb 3, 2012)

> We will have to agree to disagree on this one my friend.



Feel free to convince me otherwise from a biblical perspective.


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## rjcruiser (Feb 3, 2012)

Jeff Phillips said:


> We are clearly instructed not to judge.



Judge not lest ye be judged.

The most (mis)quoted scripture of all psuedo-christians.


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## JB0704 (Feb 3, 2012)

....or you also will be judged in the same manner?  How 'bout the splinter in the eye?

I think there is a Biblical concept of taking care of your own business first.  Am I wrong?


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## rjcruiser (Feb 3, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I think there is a Biblical concept of taking care of your own business first.  Am I wrong?



Nope...not wrong.  That is the the Biblical concept.

But the two are not opposing truths.


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## JB0704 (Feb 3, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> Nope...not wrong.  That is the the Biblical concept.
> 
> But the two are not opposing truths.



I can go with that.  But think if we feel we are qualified to judge, we better be ready for what comes back around....there might be some mess hanging around us that we are too blind to see.

It feels "safer" to take care of my own house.  Does that make sense?


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## rjcruiser (Feb 3, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I can go with that.  But think if we feel we are qualified to judge, we better be ready for what comes back around....there might be some mess hanging around us that we are too blind to see.
> 
> It feels "safer" to take care of my own house.  Does that make sense?



Of course....and often times, the motive behind judging is not correct...which also adds fuel to the fire.


Yup...it is always "safer" to take care of our business.  But as Christians, that is not what we are told to do.  We are to keep our own business in line....and help others as well.  That is probably the greatest thing (and maybe the worst ) about marriage.  You automatically gain an accountability partner.


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## jmharris23 (Feb 3, 2012)

I hate to agree with huntinfool  ...but he's right on on this one. We are to judge those who call themselves believers and we are to judge a tree by it's fruit. If you don't believe me....ask Jesus.....He's already said it one time and I would go to quoting scripture and prove it to you. 

But due to the high disregard for the authority of scripture found in this forum I'd be wasting my time.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 3, 2012)

jmharris23 said:


> ... due to the high disregard for the authority of scripture found in this forum I'd be wasting my time.



A sad commentary.


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## hummerpoo (Feb 3, 2012)

HF and RJ, From what I see above you guys have got this judging thing zeroed in.  It may be the subject that first convinced me that studying the Bible for myself would be necessary if I was to achieve discipleship.  Still striving for that one.


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## rjcruiser (Feb 3, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> HF and RJ, From what I see above you guys have got this judging thing zeroed in.  It may be the subject that first convinced me that studying the Bible for myself would be necessary if I was to achieve discipleship.  Still striving for that one.



Nope...don't have it zeroed in.  I'd venture to say that I don't have anything zeroed in on when it comes to the Bible.  The sanctification train is never done....the race we run...is never finished...until we reach Heaven.

Here's an interesting article on Judgement and confrontation of sin.

http://thecripplegate.com/how-to-stone-people-without-the-inconvenience-of-picking-up-rocks/


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## thedeacon (Feb 3, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> Judge not lest ye be judged.
> 
> The most (mis)quoted scripture of all psuedo-christians.



I agree with you on that.


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## hummerpoo (Feb 4, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> Nope...don't have it zeroed in.  I'd venture to say that I don't have anything zeroed in on when it comes to the Bible.  The sanctification train is never done....the race we run...is never finished...until we reach Heaven.
> 
> Here's an interesting article on Judgement and confrontation of sin.
> 
> http://thecripplegate.com/how-to-stone-people-without-the-inconvenience-of-picking-up-rocks/



Even when zeroed in, we're not done.  The target, game, or territory may demand a change in ammo, then we have to adjust.  After a bump we always have to check our zero.

Nice article ... might be a good starter for those who misundertand.

I always think of two things reguarding the issue:
God's requirement to maintain the body.
The relationship between love within the body and evangelism.
At their core, they are the same.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 4, 2012)

Amen.

.


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## hummerpoo (Feb 4, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> Of course....and often times, the motive behind judging is not correct...which also adds fuel to the fire.
> 
> 
> Yup...it is always "safer" to take care of our business.  But as Christians, that is not what we are told to do.  We are to keep our own business in line....and help others as well.  That is probably the greatest thing (and maybe the worst ) about marriage.  You automatically gain an accountability partner.



Does this work?  I'm concerned that it doesn't communicate well.

   Vs 1)  Judge not lest ye be judged
        2)  by the same
    3-5)  uninformed,
        6)  incorrectly targeted,
    7-8)  not spiritually guided,
  9-12)  unloving,
13-14)  careless or sloppy,
15-23)  self promoting
      manor in which you have judged another.


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## hummerpoo (Feb 4, 2012)

With the input of the wonderful "woman that God gave me" the above became:

Vs 1) 	 Judge not lest ye be judged
 2)   by the same
    3-5)   hypocritical,
       6)   misapplied,
   7-8)   unspiritual,
 9-12)   unloving,
13-14)  thoughtless,
15-23)  self promoting,
24-27)   foundationless
      manor in which you have judged another.


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## rjcruiser (Feb 5, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> I always think of two things reguarding the issue:
> God's requirement to maintain the body.
> The relationship between love within the body and evangelism.
> At their core, they are the same.



I think I can agree with that statement.



hummerpoo said:


> Does this work?  I'm concerned that it doesn't communicate well.
> 
> Vs 1)  Judge not lest ye be judged
> 2)  by the same
> ...



lol....I like that.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 5, 2012)

Who am I to judge anothers servant, to his own master, he stands or falls


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## hummerpoo (Feb 5, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> Who am I to judge anothers servant, to his own master, he stands or falls



Romans 14
 4.  Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

I find Paul’s confidence, “and he will stand”, interesting.  He may be indicating a certainty of, or an assumption of certainty of, the salvation of the weaker brother…don’t know … Anyway.

In the context of unity within the body of Christ [(Rm.14:1-15:12) 13:8 is probably a better starting place] Paul is cautioning those “who are strong” in faith among the church at Rome not to condemn those who are “weak in faith”, or to flaunt their liberty and thereby become a stumbling block to the weaker brother. (The weaker is also cautioned in vs. 3.)  Jesus in Mat. 7 is referencing sin in the fellow believer, while Paul is addressing mistaken beliefs, do to immaturity, that are not in themselves sin, but the general principle is the same.  Judging your brother who is sinning must be done with spiritual love with an eye to repentance; leading your brother who is weak must be done with spiritual love with an eye to maturity.  The mature Christian who lord’s over the babe in Christ is no different than the false prophet (Mat. 7:15-23).  They both have their reward.  (I guess a truly mature Christian wouldn’t lord over a babe would he?; should have said religious leader.)

In short:
Mat. 7 – We must judge sin within the body.
Rm. 14 – We must not judge that which is not sin.

Note that in Rm. 14:4 it is “the Lord _who_ is able to make him stand”.  I would suggest that this is yet another indication that in any attempt to do God’s work, lead our weaker brothers and sisters in Christ to the maturity that is required of all believers elsewhere in scripture, it will be the Lord working though us (notwithstanding Scripture and Spirit) that brings success; not a scheme or lesson plan dreamed up in the mind of men.


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## Israel (Feb 5, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> Romans 14
> 4.  Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
> 
> I find Paul’s confidence, “and he will stand”, interesting.  He may be indicating a certainty of, or an assumption of certainty of, the salvation of the weaker brother…don’t know … Anyway.
> ...



So well said. And said, obviously, in the fear of the Lord.

We are in a peculiar place.

Almost all the scripture we read are from brother Paul, the man who planted (or helped), bled, wept with many tears before the Lord for those children he had begotten in Christ to be established rightly in the Lord. 

Sometimes, it becomes apparent our investment may be by fact, nature, and simple circumstance, something different. We cannot change circumstance nor fact, but perhaps there remains a variable we can entertain. (I do not speak here of the "outside Judaisers" with which he often dealt who tore at the fabric of this quilt...for those he seemed to spare no indulgence of his Godly jealousy, and rightly so)

But as to the others amongst whom he was as a nurse (not an RN, but one who feeds from his own breasts), whom he loved as dear children...he stood in the awesome place of Godly fear as one purposed to see Christ reproduced, not in mere appearance, but in substance. Who is equal to such a task...? he rightly cried.

Paul had beheld many of these saints in the innocence of their new birth. He would not casually cut off any...but he also knew the terrible price of a little leaven entering in through any.

He knew well the pitfalls that lay ahead, and that the preservation of that innocence came not without diligence and care. How easily the devil would jade us and seek to trick us with wrong attitudes. 
1Co 4:7  For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

Is there any among us who has not taken this lesson? That either the revelation "makes us something"...or worse...that it has come to us because we must be,_ of ourselves,_ someone special?
But, perhaps I alone am the most easily self exaltable, self indulgent, and self deceived, for I cannot lay this upon anyone else, but I easily confess it of myself. 
Not because of some deep piety, but how ridiculously it has been made obvious in my sight. To deny it would be like arguing (as I have) my hand has not been in the cookie jar while my mother saw chocolate chip remnants smeared all over my face...(but a three year old has little use for carrying a simple hand mirror.)

Yes, in thinking I am following the perfectly humble One, I have somehow managed to completely pervert, reverse, despoil his very image in my heart so that I by word and deed imagined it conferred upon me a reason to be proud! How wrong can a man be...and live?

Before I become even more long winded it is simple enough to say this...especially if and when we run to the "letters" to his own children we may justify our attempts to deal with others we now, as children, discover on the playground.
Bad behavior has consequences. Not playing well with others is noted. Telling lies is not good. Not sharing speaks more to fear of lack than faith in the abundant God of all grace.
But the one of which we must always be mortally afraid, never tolerate first in ourselves, and then, if given grace to help deal with rightly in others, is bullying. How easily a flock may turn to into a pack when it chooses (out of fear and intimidation) an alpha to follow, and neglects the true alpha and omega. 

We don't see the omega of following the wrong alpha, for the liar will never show us the end of presumption and self. 

My beam. Your mote.


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## hummerpoo (Feb 5, 2012)

Israel said:


> Is there any among us who has not taken this lesson? That either the revelation "makes us something"...or worse...that it has come to us because we must be,_ of ourselves,_ someone special?
> But, perhaps I alone am the most easily self exaltable, self indulgent, and self deceived, for I cannot lay this upon anyone else, but I easily confess it of myself.
> Not because of some deep piety, but how ridiculously it has been made obvious in my sight. To deny it would be like arguing (as I have) my hand has not been in the cookie jar while my mother saw chocolate chip remnants smeared all over my face...(but a three year old has little use for carrying a simple hand mirror.)
> 
> Yes, in thinking I am following the perfectly humble One, I have somehow managed to completely pervert, reverse, despoil his very image in my heart so that I by word and deed imagined it conferred upon me a reason to be proud! How wrong can a man be...and live?



No my friend, you are not alone.  I have begged "must I do as assigned, I foul it every time with my filth?"  But the desire to obey is greater than the regret of failure.

Jesus is Lord, and His grace is abundant.


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## Israel (Feb 5, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> No my friend, you are not alone.  I have begged "must I do as assigned, I foul it every time with my filth?"  But the desire to obey is greater than the regret of failure.
> 
> Jesus is Lord, and His grace is abundant.



Thank you brother. 
Having company is far more precious than I used to think.
I used to think it was "being right"...but, how many years it has taken to discover that is not one of "my own" options.

Never was.


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## gtparts (Feb 6, 2012)

The world offers us the Bicycle Principle. At some point the training wheels come off and Dad runs beside and slightly behind, to guide with one hand on the back of the seat. As doubt diminishes and confidence swells, we yell, "Let go.... let go! I can do this myself!", usually right before taking a spill. 

How universally applicable that is to how we approach spiritual things. It would seem almost counter-intuitive to seek the hand of God the more we become sure of our own ability to maintain our balance, control our speed and direction, and stop safely. Oh, that we could see that God would have us ride a bicycle built for two and, at times, we do. But we often want the front seat, giving God the hind-most. The problem becomes obvious, when we realize that we do not know the destination or how to get there. God often quits pedaling and we wonder where He is. Did He jump off? Is He back there?

Much like the answer to "How do you get out of a hole?", the answer is to first quit digging...... or pedaling. Get off, confess, and switch places. Let Him determine your destination and route. And when He says "Pedal!", you pedal; when He decides to coast, quit pedaling. You may be surprised to find that sometimes He continues to propel and steer the bicycle while you rest. There is something sublime in that relationship, giving Him the front seat and accepting the rear one..... so joined that we find ourselves joyously and inextricably united as one. 

How often do we get up and almost immediately make application of the Bicycle Principle to our spiritual lives, foolishly saying, "Let go, I can do this myself."?


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## Israel (Feb 6, 2012)

gtparts said:


> The world offers us the Bicycle Principle. At some point the training wheels come off and Dad runs beside and slightly behind, to guide with one hand on the back of the seat. As doubt diminishes and confidence swells, we yell, "Let go.... let go! I can do this myself!", usually right before taking a spill.
> 
> How universally applicable that is to how we approach spiritual things. It would seem almost counter-intuitive to seek the hand of God the more we become sure of our own ability to maintain our balance, control our speed and direction, and stop safely. Oh, that we could see that God would have us ride a bicycle built for two and, at times, we do. But we often want the front seat, giving God the hind-most. The problem becomes obvious, when we realize that we do not know the destination or how to get there. God often quits pedaling and we wonder where He is. Did He jump off? Is He back there?
> 
> ...



well said...


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## mtnwoman (Feb 7, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> We are called to judge other brothers in sisters.  Not sit in judgement of their soul.  But we are called to judge their life and keep them accountable to the faith the claim.  It's very clear.



Amen! that is called undergirding! I expect y'all to tell me when I'm missing the target/mark.  I'd feel neglected, not judged if you didn't.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 7, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> No my friend, you are not alone.  I have begged "must I do as assigned, I foul it every time with my filth?"  But the desire to obey is greater than the regret of failure.
> 
> Jesus is Lord, and His grace is abundant.



Right on!

I know before I start I'm a failure.....Give me the tools, Lord, to accomplish your mission, because I have none of my own.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 9, 2012)

I never got around to my  list of Christian traits. These are Bible verses from church elders of various sites on the web.
1 Tim. 6:18 "Let them do good, that they be rich, in good works, ready to give, willing to share."
"I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.” - John 13:34, 35.
Jas 2:17  “So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.v.18  But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
Matthew 25 
36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37“Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40“The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
Matthew 18:3-4 
And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Romans 12:16
Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited.
Ephesians 4:2
Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.
Proverbs 11:2 
When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom.
Galatians 5:22-25
 "22 The Fruit of the Spirit is Love, Joy, Peace, Longsuffering, Gentleness, Goodness, Faith,
23 Meekness, Temperance: against such there is no Law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit"


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## gtparts (Feb 10, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I never got around to my  list of Christian traits. These are Bible verses from church elders of various sites on the web.
> 1 Tim. 6:18 "Let them do good, that they be rich, in good works, ready to give, willing to share."
> "I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.” - John 13:34, 35.
> Jas 2:17  “So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.v.18  But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
> ...



Since we are fully capable of making declarations, both true and false, God took the time to innumerate certain traits or characteristics of Christian thought and behavior. There are observable differences between the one who only claims Christ as savior and the one who is "working out His salvation" by his actions. 

Why did Jesus call His devoted followers "light" and "salt"? Was it just to be labeled or identified, or was it to bring attention to the way light and salt  are useful. Both light and salt have characteristics that literally change the surrounding environment. We, as Christians, are called to make a difference, to allow God to advance His kingdom by using us in our relationships to accomplish His will. 

I rather suspect that God does not have a category called "pseudo-Christians", in the U.S. or elsewhere.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 10, 2012)

I don't think God has that category either but man does. I was reading about a man form Laos who moved to the U.S. who now considers himself a Christian. He uses the assumption that Laos was a Buddhist nation and the U.S. is a Christian nation so therefore he is now a Christian. I agree there are only Christians and non-Christians. A plastic-Christian would be an oxymoron. I was reading an article that said because of "right-wing" Christians, Christian is fast becoming a dirty word. Judeo-Christian is another supposed oxymoron. Others include "former Christian, homosexual Christian, rock musician Christian, feminist Christian, pro-choice Christians, Christian Yoga, & Christian evolutionist (i'm one of these). These are other peoples labels and not God's or mine. Humans like labels everything must be in a catagory.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 10, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't think God has that category either but man does. I was reading about a man form Laos who moved to the U.S. who now considers himself a Christian. He uses the assumption that Laos was a Buddhist nation and the U.S. is a Christian nation so therefore he is now a Christian. I agree there are only Christians and non-Christians. A plastic-Christian would be an oxymoron. I was reading an article that said because of "right-wing" Christians, Christian is fast becoming a dirty word. Judeo-Christian is another supposed oxymoron. Others include "former Christian, homosexual Christian, rock musician Christian, feminist Christian, pro-choice Christians, Christian Yoga, & Christian evolutionist (i'm one of these). These are other peoples labels and not God's or mine. Humans like labels everything must be in a catagory.



I don't think the word "Christian" was always used in a positive way by people of the 1st century either.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 12, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> The main question was: Is the United States a Christian nation just because most people in it say they are. As for as judging people, the link below is interesting and before anyone calls me on it, the church believes in pre-election, i don't. But i still believe in Jesus.
> http://www.letgodbetrue.com/introduction/faq/judge.htm



Your question is interesting and a long standing question in some respects.

In western societies at least we hold to definite codes or measurements and beliefs on how to behave as the marks of individual christianity. 

BUT! In western societies we do not have the same codes and measurements for states, nations and countries.

I believe George Bush was asked in an interview if he based his dicisions as President on his christian values and his answer was, if I understand correctly, that his dicisions were based on the responsibilities of the job which included the safety of the american people.

Do you see the shift changing here. Now George Bush is no different than any other head of state in this regard.  The nations and states have moral codes outside of Christianity and possibly Islam, Shinto etc....

While the heads of state as individual christians might not agree with torture as a remedy to security, as a statesmens/women responsible to their people, some will have a different set of values.

Germany as an example, with protestants in the north and catholics in the south, in the late 1800 and eary 1900 could muster a national will that sanctioned murder, mass murder, rape, genocide, deportations, ethnic cleansing, robbery,  and get away with it. Why? Because it was not the individual christian that did these things, they all were. It was the state and states have "laws" all to their own regardless of national prayers.

So is the United States a christian nation, is a good question. It is in that perhaps a majority of its people claim they are christian and can claim an affliliation to a christian church.  However, the the United States as a state serves itself and its citizens anyway it can--christianity is what soldiers do before they put on their armor for Her.

Perhaps a good question would be "Do our political institutions in their day to day affairs reflect the codes of individual moral conduct?" My answser would be no. And my next question would be if not, then how can my church and myself as a individual work to change this.

I once was the treasurer of a Boy Scout troop. I controled the money, it was my responsibiliy. I did this job so well that no one got to spend any of it, and a the end of the yrs we even made interest. The only problem, a minor one really, was that the boys never got to scout very much, having no resources to work with. Oh, and the parents who were really keen about scouting at the beginning of the yr, were not there to hear my excellent finantial report of how we started with $200.00 and finished $205.00. I have never been so proud of our scouts, but everyone quit on me. It is really hard to keep the interest purked up in these organizations!

This is what we do with the Good News, we bank it and pat ourselves on the back. Perhaps?


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 12, 2012)

Speaking of presidents and Christian values, do you think Jimmy Carter was a bad president because he was a good Christian? I've heard this question asked before. Was he too meek and mild to be a good president? For some reason conservative comes to mind as labeling Christians but Carter was a Liberal Democrat.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 12, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Speaking of presidents and Christian values, do you think Jimmy Carter was a bad president because he was a good Christian? I've heard this question asked before. Was he too meek and mild to be a good president? For some reason conservative comes to mind as labeling Christians but Carter was a Liberal Democrat.



You getting all squirrelly or sumtin?

Gee it was an example of state morality vs individual morality, not meant as  a beauty queen contest! The devide is not between true-christians or pseudo-christians in the US.  My view is that the divide is between the individual christian and the state, when you id it as christian, as per saying Norway is a christian nation for example.


Any man can built his house and claim it great and a reward and there for the grace of God-- even having bought his precious bricks on the wrong side of Jordan. But the men that live even in tents with uncut stones begged from the other side in order to hold down their pegs, they are the fathers of a great nation.


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## leemckinney (Feb 14, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> I'm sorry....that is, wholesale, not true.  It's a common claim among Christians.  But it is un-true.
> 
> We are called to judge other brothers in sisters.  Not sit in judgement of their soul.  But we are called to judge their life and keep them accountable to the faith the claim.  It's very clear.
> 
> ...



I agree with you and am glad you read your Bible and figured that one out.  Not to judge is probably one of the most misdivided scriptures spouted today.  If you look at the Greek word translated "judge" there are two different words used.  You are correct in your interpretation.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 14, 2012)

On this Church's website that i linked to earlier is their page with some Biblical examples of when it is okay to judge others.

http://www.letgodbetrue.com/introduction/faq/judge.htm


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 14, 2012)

Who am I to gudge anothers servant, to his own master he stands or falls


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## hummerpoo (Feb 15, 2012)

Wisdom from another thread.



Ronnie T said:


> Yeah, I think most of us would rather "talk" about Bible things than "study".


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## Huntinfool (Feb 15, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> Who am I to gudge anothers servant, to his own master he stands or falls



Put that in it's proper context, and you've got something my man.

We are not the judge of a man's soul.  To do so (IMO) would be blasphemy against God.  It is his right and his alone to make final judgement on a man's soul.

Put in the context of the remainder of scripture that deals with interaction among believers and you've got something.


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## JB0704 (Feb 15, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> Put in the context of the remainder of scripture that deals with interaction among believers and you've got something.



I think we need a thread on judging.


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## rjcruiser (Feb 15, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I think we need a thread on judging.





Just ask HF how his judging skills are in the Turkey Challenge and he'll fold like a cheap deck of cards


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## Huntinfool (Feb 15, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I think we need a thread on judging.



JB, I think you must be going to the hot place based on this post.  Why would you put a stumbling block in front of me?


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## Huntinfool (Feb 15, 2012)

> Just ask HF how his judging skills are in the Turkey Challenge and he'll fold like a cheap deck of cards.



If you ask me, I did an awesome job.  Ask a few guys from a certain team last year....you might get a diff answer!!!!

I think that's where I need to pull out the "Judge not!" card.


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## JB0704 (Feb 15, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> Why would you put a stumbling block in front of me?



I'm bored.


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## hummerpoo (Feb 15, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> Who am I to gudge anothers servant, to his own master he stands or falls



Have you addressed post #54?


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 15, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> Romans 14
> 4.  Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
> 
> I find Paul’s confidence, “and he will stand”, interesting.  He may be indicating a certainty of, or an assumption of certainty of, the salvation of the weaker brother…don’t know … Anyway.
> ...


Hey Hummer, Where all, I know of one that I think is a misunderstanding [1Cor 5], do you find that we are to judge sin within the body? I try to focus on my own log in the eye. Nor do I wish to swallow a camel. You see, my viewpoint is that in the context of 1 John, I shall not blaspheme the Holy Spirit by attempting to do his work of covicting of sin, for I am confident that he is capable of this without my help. The problem is that we see sin abound in churches. So we think we must do something about it. Sin in the church is not the problem. The problem in the church is that they teach how to clean up the flesh. Paul said he put no confidence in the flesh. The kingdom of man puts confidence in the flesh but the Kingdom of God says [Gal 5:5] "By faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope"


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## Huntinfool (Feb 15, 2012)

Matthew 18 is a good example of recognizing and addressing sin within the body.


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## JB0704 (Feb 15, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> Matthew 18 is a good example of recognizing and addressing sin within the body.



The lost sheep?  I believe he was treated with kindness, right?

Also, around v 21 it talks about forgiveness.  I believe the implication is that we are to forgive regardless of the offense.


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## DCHunter (Feb 15, 2012)

mossyback8874 said:


> I think it's more of an observation for most than judgment.    Scripture says you will know us by the fruit we bear.  It's not hard to differentiate between an apple tree and a pine tree.  In this example, you can call a tree an apple tree all you want, but if it continues to produce pine cones, at some point you have to call it a pine tree.  Same with a Christian, if someone says they are one but there is no evidence in their daily lives, an observation would be that the person really isn't.  The problem is people don't either read the bible, or they don't believe it.  No one is perfect, I fall far short of where I need to be, but it doesn't stop me from trying.  Just because God gives us grace doesn't mean grace should abound.  I've got plenty of co-workers, acquaintances, and friends that say grace over every meal, show up to Church on Sunday mornings, and pray only when things go wrong, but these are the same guys that are unfaithful in their marriage, get drunk on a regular basis, spew one cuss word after another in every conversation, and the list goes on.  I'm not trying to come across as self-righteous, but for people to not even TRY, it's not judgment, it's just an observation that leads you to a logical conclusion, apple trees produce apples, pine trees produce pine cones. Pretty simple really.



How do you know that you're really holding an apple. It could be a pine cone that someone told you was an apple.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 15, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hey Hummer, Where all, I know of one that I think is a misunderstanding [1Cor 5], do you find that we are to judge sin within the body? I try to focus on my own log in the eye. Nor do I wish to swallow a camel. You see, my viewpoint is that in the context of 1 John, I shall not blaspheme the Holy Spirit by attempting to do his work of covicting of sin, for I am confident that he is capable of this without my help. The problem is that we see sin abound in churches. So we think we must do something about it. Sin in the church is not the problem. The problem in the church is that they teach how to clean up the flesh. Paul said he put no confidence in the flesh. The kingdom of man puts confidence in the flesh but the Kingdom of God says [Gal 5:5] "By faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope"



And Romans 6,7, and 8 speak of those who claim to be living in the Spirit yet live in the flesh.  A person touched by the spirit of God will not be seeking the things of the flesh (not be living in the flesh).

But it's also nice to have Christian friends who love you enough to show you the things you need to be careful of.
I trust in my Christian brothers to love me and warn me of "things" I need to be more aware of in my life.


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## hummerpoo (Feb 15, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hey Hummer, Where all, I know of one that I think is a misunderstanding [1Cor 5], do you find that we are to judge sin within the body? I try to focus on my own log in the eye. Nor do I wish to swallow a camel. You see, my viewpoint is that in the context of 1 John, I shall not blaspheme the Holy Spirit by attempting to do his work of covicting of sin, for I am confident that he is capable of this without my help. The problem is that we see sin abound in churches. So we think we must do something about it. Sin in the church is not the problem. The problem in the church is that they teach how to clean up the flesh. Paul said he put no confidence in the flesh. The kingdom of man puts confidence in the flesh but the Kingdom of God says [Gal 5:5] "By faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope"



I see at least 6 issues that you have identified, and it looks like all are relevant to your view.  That’s fine, I’d be quite happy to address each, no matter how long it takes, but let’s make sure there is a possibility of benefit by addressing the first.

My “job site” paraphrase of 1 Cor. 5:9-13 is: 
HEY, YOU BUNCH OF KNUCKLEHEADS, I didn’t tell you not to hang around sinners at all, if you did that you’d have to go home and hide in the closet.  I told you not to put up with in-your-face sinners who claim to be Christians, don’t even have lunch with them.  You take care of the so-called believers like it says in Deuteronomy, God will handle the rest. 

What is the misunderstanding you refer to?


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 15, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> I see at least 6 issues that you have identified, and it looks like all are relevant to your view.  That’s fine, I’d be quite happy to address each, no matter how long it takes, but let’s make sure there is a possibility of benefit by addressing the first.
> 
> My “job site” paraphrase of 1 Cor. 5:9-13 is:
> HEY, YOU BUNCH OF KNUCKLEHEADS, I didn’t tell you not to hang around sinners at all, if you did that you’d have to go home and hide in the closet.  I told you not to put up with in-your-face sinners who claim to be Christians, don’t even have lunch with them.  You take care of the so-called believers like it says in Deuteronomy, God will handle the rest.
> ...


So is he saying to remove the one/ones in verse 11 or the one having his fathers wife of verse 1? I consider he is refering to verse 1. Verse 9 tells us that he did make such a claim in another epistle of which we don't have record of so we can't see the surrounding context. So what is verse 1 refering to. Sin in the church. Yes, but not as most think. Not the sheep but the shepherd. A little yeast works through the whole batch. How by his teaching. What was his teaching? If you don't agree to this then no sense in proceeding


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## hummerpoo (Feb 15, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> So is he saying to remove the one/ones in verse 11 or the one having his fathers wife of verse 1? I consider he is refering to verse 1. Verse 9 tells us that he did make such a claim in another epistle of which we don't have record of so we can't see the surrounding context. So what is verse 1 refering to. Sin in the church. Yes, but not as most think. Not the sheep but the shepherd. A little yeast works through the whole batch. How by his teaching. What was his teaching? If you don't agree to this then no sense in proceeding



Not sure I follow.  Are you saying that the removal prescribed does not refer to all ... lets say members of the congregation, but refers to the one individual and that he is the pastor or an elder?  If so I'm not seeing it.  From where do you draw the inference?  I must be missing it.

In 3:1-4:13 Paul is definitely talking about the judgement of leadership (in terms of preference for content or style of leadership), and many times 4:5 is pulled out of context to comdemn all judgement of believers, however, 4:16 indicates the shift that he makes to judgment of overt sin in the church.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 15, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> Not sure I follow.  Are you saying that the removal prescribed does not refer to all ... lets say members of the congregation, but refers to the one individual and that he is the pastor or an elder?  If so I'm not seeing it.  From where do you draw the inference?  I must be missing it.
> 
> In 3:1-4:13 Paul is definitely talking about the judgement of leadership (in terms of preference for content or style of leadership), and many times 4:5 is pulled out of context to comdemn all judgement of believers, however, 4:16 indicates the shift that he makes to judgment of overt sin in the church.


It is a hard case to make of which most will not agree with. I will have time to explain it tomorrow. I explained it awhile back but I could not find it in the history. Yes, I'm saying that it is a pastor or elder. Notice 1 Tim 5:19+20, speaking of elders, those who sin is to be rebuked publicly. I do however agree that in an indirect way, Paul mentions in verse 9, [greek rendering] "I wrote to you in the epistle" now vs 11 "But now I am writing to you", Here I think he steps out of context and refers to another writing of his which we do not have. Not having this document, I can't assume to much. It seemingly looks like judging, but in this case you don't associate or eat, but I don't think he is refering to expeling from the church. I think the expel context comes from the elder who "has his fathers wife". This phrase being a LOADED phrase, with intentions of drawing a picture from the familiar OT. More Later


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 15, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> Not sure I follow.  Are you saying that the removal prescribed does not refer to all ... lets say members of the congregation, but refers to the one individual and that he is the pastor or an elder?  If so I'm not seeing it.  From where do you draw the inference?  I must be missing it.
> 
> In 3:1-4:13 Paul is definitely talking about the judgement of leadership (in terms of preference for content or style of leadership), and many times 4:5 is pulled out of context to comdemn all judgement of believers, however, 4:16 indicates the shift that he makes to judgment of overt sin in the church.


Go through and see from chp 1 through 5 and see how many times they say, And you are so proud, or boasting about men. Now ponder whether they are all in the same context. Paul sums up chp 1-5 in chp 5 verse1 "a man has his fathers wife". Now look at 2 Samuel chp 15. This is the story that Paul uses to describe what is going on with this socalled wise preacher that they are so proud of


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## hummerpoo (Feb 15, 2012)

Glad you have to break, I have to get ready for an early start to a 50 mile distant early start tomorrow.


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## hummerpoo (Feb 16, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> It is a hard case to make of which most will not agree with. I will have time to explain it tomorrow. I explained it awhile back but I could not find it in the history. Yes, I'm saying that it is a pastor or elder. Notice 1 Tim 5:19+20, speaking of elders, those who sin is to be rebuked publicly. I do however agree that in an indirect way, Paul mentions in verse 9, [greek rendering] "I wrote to you in the epistle" now vs 11 "But now I am writing to you", Here I think he steps out of context and refers to another writing of his which we do not have. Not having this document, I can't assume to much. It seemingly looks like judging, but in this case you don't associate or eat, but I don't think he is refering to expeling from the church. I think the expel context comes from the elder who "has his fathers wife". This phrase being a LOADED phrase, with intentions of drawing a picture from the familiar OT. More Later



Also notice Mat. 18:15-17 (not elders) and the same hope for repentance as in 1 Cor. 5:5

Translation vary on vs. 11 “But now I write…” or something like “What I actually wrote was …”.  I don’t really see a significant difference; it is either clarifying or emphasizing, either way the result is the same.  Are you saying a second writing that we don’t have?  If so, I have to say that’s too much of a stretch for me.

Looking at the compound word translated “to associate with” and the source element which in compound indicates “repetition, intensity, reversal” (from Strong’s) I think the idea of complete disassociation (at least formally) is justified.  “Eat” could be ritually or casually; either only adds more emphasis.


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## hummerpoo (Feb 16, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> Go through and see from chp 1 through 5 and see how many times they say, And you are so proud, or boasting about men. Now ponder whether they are all in the same context. Paul sums up chp 1-5 in chp 5 verse1 "a man has his fathers wife". Now look at 2 Samuel chp 15. This is the story that Paul uses to describe what is going on with this socalled wise preacher that they are so proud of



Sure, Paul starts the theme at 1:12.  Wandering as he does, he never leaves the idea that the Corinthians are focused on men and men’s doctrine when they should be focused on Christ and God’s Law.  And chapter 5 is what a fellow once called his “zinger”.  (He told me that, when I was carrying on about a list of relatively minor violations, he would grit his teeth because he knew I was laying a foundation for my “zinger”.)  Paul’s zinger is that they had gone so far from their proper focus that they were willing to overlook a basic tenet of God’s Law (sexual sin), or from your prospective they had gone so far in there pride in their leader that they would overlook anything he did (even sexual sin).

As far as OT background, the obvious would be the one quoted at the end of vs. 13
I’ve located at least a half-dozen possible sources for this quote, the majority favor Deut. 17:7 (only one reference is to leadership).  I think they all involved the death of the offender.  That is consistent with other NT vs. OT situations where the OT calls for death and the NT calls for excommunication.  In the closed community of the nation of Israel death kept the community pure.  In the NT church, which crosses nation, racial, and social lines, excommunication keeps the church pure.

You said you had more, so I hope I’m not jumping the gun on you.

Where are we?  I’ll let you state our agreements and differences.

Gone to work.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 16, 2012)

Hey Hummer, Ask yourself would you even want "your fathers wife".Notice that in the opening statementsof 1:4-9 as compared to other churches, received a grade A stamp. Are we to think what the commentators say is true, that sexual immorality abounded in the church of Corinth. Are we to think that they boasted of this. That we had a Hugh Macall as a preacher in a church that looked more like the playboy mansion. This kind of thinking has done much harm. The athiest assume it's true, why because the church does the same. What a mess. Preachers these days are so wise. They teach, like James Dobson how to do everything. How to clean up the flesh. They sound so wise. And people are so proud of them. Joel Osteen has been elevated to rock star stardom, signing autographs, etc. But this kind of clean the flesh teaching is in opposition to the Kingdom of God teaching. The flesh was never meant to be cleaned up, but destroyed. This yeast ruins the whole batch of dough. If the old covenant was good enough then we would have no need for the newcovenant. You see, man has forever tried to overcome his nature by discipline. But 1000's of years proved it could not be done, yet preachers are still trying to teach the same crap. Only by the new covenant can our behavior be changed. Behavior change is not taught, it can only be changed, thus the need of the New cov. These preacherssound so smart, but what are they doing if not for God. They have taken to a soap box for their own honor. Working hard to impress the flock so that men might honor them. What have they done, they are stealing the bride of Christ. What did John say, the bride belongs to the bridegroom. But this church is boasting over this one man, they are so proud of him. Paul sums up what is going on by taking them to a familiar passage from 2 Samuel. "a man has his father's wife". Absalom would go outside the city gate and intercept those on the way to his father David and would woe them. [15:6] "So he stole their hearts.." Then see 16:15-23 so he pitched a tent [in public view] and lay with his father's [David] concubines in the sight of all of Israel. Now considerone of the many, Jude 1:4, "they are godless men who change the grace of God into a liscense for immorality" [think cops have a liscense to speed] and another 2Peter 2:13 drawing to the picture of Absalom laying with his fathers wifes for all to see, "there idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight"


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## hummerpoo (Feb 16, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hey Hummer, Ask yourself would you even want "your fathers wife".Notice that in the opening statementsof 1:4-9 as compared to other churches, received a grade A stamp. Are we to think what the commentators say is true, that sexual immorality abounded in the church of Corinth. Are we to think that they boasted of this. That we had a Hugh Macall as a preacher in a church that looked more like the playboy mansion. This kind of thinking has done much harm. The athiest assume it's true, why because the church does the same. What a mess. Preachers these days are so wise. They teach, like James Dobson how to do everything. How to clean up the flesh. They sound so wise. And people are so proud of them. Joel Osteen has been elevated to rock star stardom, signing autographs, etc. But this kind of clean the flesh teaching is in opposition to the Kingdom of God teaching. The flesh was never meant to be cleaned up, but destroyed. This yeast ruins the whole batch of dough. If the old covenant was good enough then we would have no need for the newcovenant. You see, man has forever tried to overcome his nature by discipline. But 1000's of years proved it could not be done, yet preachers are still trying to teach the same crap. Only by the new covenant can our behavior be changed. Behavior change is not taught, it can only be changed, thus the need of the New cov. These preacherssound so smart, but what are they doing if not for God. They have taken to a soap box for their own honor. Working hard to impress the flock so that men might honor them. What have they done, they are stealing the bride of Christ. What did John say, the bride belongs to the bridegroom. But this church is boasting over this one man, they are so proud of him. Paul sums up what is going on by taking them to a familiar passage from 2 Samuel. "a man has his father's wife". Absalom would go outside the city gate and intercept those on the way to his father David and would woe them. [15:6] "So he stole their hearts.." Then see 16:15-23 so he pitched a tent [in public view] and lay with his father's [David] concubines in the sight of all of Israel. Now considerone of the many, Jude 1:4, "they are godless men who change the grace of God into a liscense for immorality" [think cops have a liscense to speed] and another 2Peter 2:13 drawing to the picture of Absalom laying with his fathers wifes for all to see, "there idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight"



I think we are really close on our views of the Church’s teaching of “clean up the flesh” by man’s power.  Although, “through the power of the Spirit”, is usually alluded to, no foundation is laid.

Although I find your construct somewhat interesting, there are a couple of points on which I have been unable to follow the connections you intend.  I’m sorry to say that on the majority, which I can follow, they appear to me to be varying degree of stretch; not yielding anything that I would conclude could override the plain meaning. The result is that, as I think we both suspected from the outset, there is little chance of real benefit for either of us from an additional 50 to 100 hours invested (and there is enough related scripture to easily take up that amount of time, at least for the slow mind with which I have been blessed.)

Having made an effort (and I believe we both have) I would beg a moment to express my concern about teaching that there is to be no judging among the believers.  One is the danger of missing the blessing of guidance from loving brothers and sisters, which Ronnie expressed so well above.  Next is denying God’s commandment to maintain a pure people to represent Him before the lost world as expressed from Sinai to Patmos.  And last, the development of a lazy Christianity which does not see sanctification as a Spirit-guided maturing to discipleship that is most usable and useful to our Lord Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit.  To none of these do I ascribe intent on your part.

Although I can not deny that I view this effort as a failure, I can sincerely say that I do not see it as closing the door on future exploration of issues between us.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 16, 2012)

I just enjoyed reading your comments from the last couple of days and I really enjoyed the read.
Great insight and search.

I just want to remind you to include Romans 8 in your discussion.
I would love to quote some words from it, but I'd have to post the entire chapter.

I don't remember which, but one of you mentioned how we Christians often stress-out trying to get Christians to straighten up their lives.  You stated that what that Christian actually needed was the Spirit.  And I want you to know that I so agree with you.

Romans 8 says:  "Get the Spirit, and clean up your life".  "You cannot do it along."  "You'll never do it along".  "You gotta have the Spirit of God within you".
"If you don't have that Spirit connection with God, you gonna struggle all your life, but never get it".  "Receive and accept God's Spirit".

But,

James 5:
16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much. 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months. 18 Then he prayed again, and the sky poured rain and the earth produced its fruit. 

 19 My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.


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## Huntinfool (Feb 17, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> The lost sheep?  I believe he was treated with kindness, right?
> 
> Also, around v 21 it talks about forgiveness.  I believe the implication is that we are to forgive regardless of the offense.



No, the next section.  If your brother sins against you...

In order to determine whether he's sinned against you, you MUST make judgement on his behavior (not pronounce judgement on his soul).  Then is shows you how to deal with that within the body.


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## JB0704 (Feb 17, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> In order to determine whether he's sinned against you, you MUST make judgement on his behavior (not pronounce judgement on his soul).  Then is shows you how to deal with that within the body.



I get that part. I believe the need for witnesses and the body is to verify an offense was committed, I guess.

But, and I would like to have a conversation on this (not an argument), where does that imply that we are to judge the behavior which does not affect us? I think later on in the letters Paul lays out a case for kicking a fella out of the local body for living in sin, but the precendent Jesus sets for such judgment, in my view, is almost unatainable (remove the log from your eye before pointing out a splinter).

Seriously, I think we can discuss this in a civil manner, want me to start a thread on it?  I am open to the possibility of me being wrong......


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## rjcruiser (Feb 17, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I get that part. I believe the need for witnesses and the body is to verify an offense was committed, I guess.
> 
> But, and I would like to have a conversation on this (not an argument), where does that imply that we are to judge the behavior which does not affect us? I think later on in the letters Paul lays out a case for kicking a fella out of the local body for living in sin, but the precendent Jesus sets for such judgment, in my view, is almost unatainable (remove the log from your eye before pointing out a splinter).
> 
> Seriously, I think we can discuss this in a civil manner, want me to start a thread on it?  I am open to the possibility of me being wrong......



The whole thought of Church Discipline comes from Matt 18.  Not sure where else it is discussed, but it is pretty clear.

And yes, the purpose is not to point out sin, but to restore fellowship.  You must have this as your motive or it is going to go poorly.


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## JB0704 (Feb 17, 2012)

1 Corinthians 5 is where Paul discusses church discipline in depth.

Here is how I see it:

1. Before discipline (1 Cor. 5) is exercised, an offense must be committed.
2. When an offense is committed, it must be addressed correctlly (Mathew 18).
3. Addressing it correctly requires multiple steps / witnesses (Mathew 18).
4. Judgement of such an offense requires two things of the one judging:
    a. Be willing to also be judged in the same manner (Mathew 7:1-2).
    b. Be free of "logs in their eye" (Mathew 7:3-5)

That being the case, it seems very few are qualified to judge, and a certain level of self confidence (avoiding more appropriate, yet inflamatory, adjectives) is required to claim such qualifications.  Once qualifications are established, there is a series of events which must occur......if any of these are not met, then the person doing the judging is against protocol and as such, is not qualified to judge.

Then again, the whole process is only applicable to intra-fellowship judgement, not those outside the fellowship (1 Cor. 5:12).


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 17, 2012)

While your collecting your thoughts, there is another not mentioned yet. I think it's at the end of Galtians, 'if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently but watch yourselves...."


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## JB0704 (Feb 17, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> While your collecting your thoughts, there is another not mentioned yet. I think it's at the end of Galtians, 'if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently but watch yourselves...."



To me, though the precedence exists, I think the trend is towards restoration in a "gentle" manner.  But, the person who deems himself worthy to judge puts himself on particularly tricky ground.


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## mossyback8874 (Feb 17, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> To me, though the precedence exists, I think the trend is towards restoration in a "gentle" manner.  But, the person who deems himself worthy to judge puts himself on particularly tricky ground.



I've stayed away from this talk on judgment, but now I have a question.  If you see a fellow brother in Christ stumbling should we not approach him about it?  In his eyes it may be judgment, but in our eyes it may be encouragement.


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## JB0704 (Feb 17, 2012)

mossyback8874 said:


> I've stayed away from this talk on judgment, but now I have a question.  If you see a fellow brother in Christ stumbling should we not approach him about it?  In his eyes it may be judgment, but in our eyes it may be encouragement.



I think just like anything else, it's all in how you appraoch it.  If I have an actual "friendship" with the individual in question, sure, it will come up.

But it won't be like "SINNER REPENT!!"  In the past, I have had to deal with a few things where folks were exercising irresponsible behavior.  As their friend, because I had invested in them as an individual, and taken the time to show that I was friend, my opinion was wanted and recieved.  This is pretty much common sense.

Would you listen to somebody who has only shown an interest in your life to the extent they were judging you?  I wouldn't.  But if I saw a friend putting themselves at risk, I would be a bad friend to not try and help.


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## hummerpoo (Feb 17, 2012)

You folks always seem to cover a lot of ground while I’m at work and my slow thinker has a real hard time catching up.

Without addressing one I’ll do as I did once before and say what comes to mind after having read over the previous posts.

In Mat. 18:15 “against you” is not in the early manuscripts which explains why some translations include these two words and some do not (that’s from memory, I didn’t verify it, so someone please correct me if I’m wrong).  That is not of great significance because the basis of judgment within the Church is not a mater of an individual receiving recompense for an offense against his person.  The offence is against God.  It’s the effect on His Holy Name that maters.  The purity of God’s people is as old as Mt. Sinai.  I think it’s Ezekiel where I once counted 49 times that God said “that they (usually the pagans, sometimes Israel) will know that I am God”, or something very close to that.  Apparently God wants to be known, and many times His method is through His people.

Way back in this thread I put forth the idea that all of Mat. 7 relates to judging of our brothers and sisters (post #51).  That’s a lot of direction on what must be done before our action will be pleasing to God.  I think it was JB who referred to a lot of “self confidence” to satisfy the beam versus speck requirement; take that times seven.  What you get is a realization that it can not be done in the flesh.  Just as all other works which are acceptable to God, it must be in the Spirit.  Not man’s feeble attempt to satisfy the requirements of God, but God by His Spirit working through man.  Death of the old man, born again, take up your cross, walk by faith, etc.

I think I said earlier that in both in Mat. 18 and 1Cor. 5 purity of the Body is paramount, but the goal is also restoring to repentance of the offender.

Back to an earlier point: none of this judging has any malice in it.  It is all accomplished with gentleness and love.  Can we do that in the flesh?  No.  It must be in the Spirit.  Is the weak believer of no value in the works of God?  Certainly not.  Is the mature believer of more value in the works of God?  Ask yourself if that is the point of the milk drinker/meat eater analogy.  Can anyone “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind” and not be all about pleasing Him to the exclusion of all else.  Simple isn’t it.  Just concentrate on the Greatest Commandment.  Everything else falls into place.


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## hummerpoo (Feb 18, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> To me, though the precedence exists, I think the trend is towards restoration in a "gentle" manner.  But, the person who deems himself worthy to judge puts himself on particularly tricky ground.
> "But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil."





mossyback8874 said:


> I've stayed away from this talk on judgment, but now I have a question.  If you see a fellow brother in Christ stumbling should we not approach him about it?  In his eyes it may be judgment, but in our eyes it may be encouragement.
> ""A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.


  I believe these are two very good thoughts.


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## leemckinney (Feb 19, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I think just like anything else, it's all in how you appraoch it.  If I have an actual "friendship" with the individual in question, sure, it will come up.
> 
> But it won't be like "SINNER REPENT!!"  In the past, I have had to deal with a few things where folks were exercising irresponsible behavior.  As their friend, because I had invested in them as an individual, and taken the time to show that I was friend, my opinion was wanted and recieved.  This is pretty much common sense.
> 
> Would you listen to somebody who has only shown an interest in your life to the extent they were judging you?  I wouldn't.  But if I saw a friend putting themselves at risk, I would be a bad friend to not try and help.



Amen.  Great point.


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## Israel (Feb 19, 2012)

Love is always a key, isn't it?
Love will not take offense if it is rebuffed, especially by the one whose restoration one may be seeking.
Some things are truly not fitting in the Kingdom, but the heart that judges with mercy is always received.
Offenses are always a test, both for the viewer, and the seeming "doer" of such.
Paul said he had his children in the faith in his heart to both live and die with them.
If the perception of an "error" does not produce the clear demonstration of Christ crucified in our own sight...perhaps we are not yet prepared to approach another about what we perceive as error, or misadventure.


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## hummerpoo (Feb 19, 2012)

Israel said:


> Love is always a key, isn't it?
> Love will not take offense if it is rebuffed, especially by the one whose restoration one may be seeking.
> Some things are truly not fitting in the Kingdom, but the heart that judges with mercy is always received.
> Offenses are always a test, both for the viewer, and the seeming "doer" of such.
> ...



Spirit guided clarity if ever saw it.


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## copecowboy84 (Mar 4, 2012)

Very interesting question. But after reading on the link posted there was one thing on there i question. I know violence is against Gods will, and in the link it said even in government sanctioned war. So what it was saying is, since im in the military, im not a true christian. I do not agree with this.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 4, 2012)

copecowboy84 said:


> Very interesting question. But after reading on the link posted there was one thing on there i question. I know violence is against Gods will, and in the link it said even in government sanctioned war. So what it was saying is, since im in the military, im not a true christian. I do not agree with this.


I found out later that was from a Unitarian Church link so disregard the link.
Matthew 24: 6
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

You're just helping live out the prophecy and thanks for you service in our defense dept.


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