# nonresident turkey hunting



## Gaswamp

Some of yall might have already listened to this.

‎The Turkey Hunter Podcast with Andy Gagliano | Turkey Hunting Tips, Strategies, and Stories: 352 - The Rise in Nonresident Turkey Hunting License Sales on Apple Podcasts


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## ssramage

Gaswamp said:


> Some of yall might have already listened to this.
> 
> ‎The Turkey Hunter Podcast with Andy Gagliano | Turkey Hunting Tips, Strategies, and Stories: 352 - The Rise in Nonresident Turkey Hunting License Sales on Apple Podcasts





Gaswamp said:


> Some of yall might have already listened to this.
> 
> ‎The Turkey Hunter Podcast with Andy Gagliano | Turkey Hunting Tips, Strategies, and Stories: 352 - The Rise in Nonresident Turkey Hunting License Sales on Apple Podcasts




I just ran across it.

I'm a little torn. I 100% support hunter recruitment and driving awareness of hunting opportunities. If we don't do a good job of this, hunter recruitment will continue to drop and opportunities will diminish for us and future generations. 

BUT... it seems very counter intuitive to pay social media influencers to drive nonresident participation when states across the board are reducing their bag limits and hunting opportunities for residents. The marketing activities don't align with the strategy.


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## Dupree

And Georgia is partnered with THP to promote our public lands (According to this screen shot I was sent, I’m not sure if it’s legit), but yet the public land turkey hunter lost two weeks of hunting compared to private lands. Maybe they should have kept it residents only the first two weeks of season.


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## Hoosier06

Arizona paid influencers to promote their hunts and now there have been cuts to the OTC mule deer as a direct results. 

I used to watch THP and other shows but they are all just pimping out wildlife until it's a depleted resource then they move onto the next thing. Born raised outdoors did the sMe with elk and now it's so popular they went to waterfowl instead. 

Hunter recruitment is the dumbest idea ever when you can't find a parking spot on public land.


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## kmckinnie

It’s about revenue ,not hunter recruitments .


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## Sautee Ridgerunner

Is this really true?  Has GA DNR partnered with these dopes?


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## Dupree

Sautee Ridgerunner said:


> Is this really true?  Has GA DNR partnered with these dopes?


I messaged one of the hosts on that podcast asking for proof and he sent me the screen shot I posted above. I wonder who in the Dnr we should contact to ask? I think GON should get someone to start doing some digging and write an article.


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## Sautee Ridgerunner

Let’s just ask @C.Killmaster


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## C.Killmaster

Sautee Ridgerunner said:


> Let’s just ask @C.Killmaster



I heard someone mention public affairs working with social media influencers, but I don't know which ones or what they are supposed to promote.  Also, what I heard was in reference to fishing.


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## Sautee Ridgerunner

Thanks Charlie. 

It would be very disappointing if any of our dollars were going to resource exploiters like THP.


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## Dupree

@C.Killmaster whom would I need to contact to find out if the Dnr is in fact in a paid partnership with youtubers?


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## C.Killmaster

Dupree said:


> @C.Killmaster whom would I need to contact to find out if the Dnr is in fact in a paid partnership with youtubers?



PM sent


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## Unicoidawg

I love watching their videos and various others as well, but.......... there is absolutely no reason for the State of GA to use our tax dollars to pay them or any others to try and bring more people in. Then turn around and take away time and change limits, Makes absolutely no sense. If DNR wants to do something they need to limit the numbers of NR's coming in and charge more for their licenses. 

Dupree post what you find out.


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## LongBeard50

Unicoidawg said:


> I love watching their videos and various others as well, but.......... there is absolutely no reason for the State of GA to use our tax dollars to pay them or any others to try and bring more people in. Then turn around and take away time and change limits, Makes absolutely no sense. If DNR wants to do something they need to limit the numbers of NR's coming in and charge more for their licenses.
> 
> Dupree post what you find out.



The DNRs team up with THP because they have a big following who watch their videos about traveling for turkey hunting.  The more people that travel to the state, the more money the DNR gets. I used to watch THP and Hollywood Dave Owens until I realized that they are not doing ANYTHING good for turkey hunting. Quite the opposite actually through their pimping out of public lands and the resource we all cherish.

Let’s not confuse any of this. It is all about MONEY for both groups. The quicker you and the rest of social media stop watching their shows, the better we will all be.


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## Sautee Ridgerunner

Im honestly surprised an Alabama lynch mob hasnt shown up at Dave’z doorstep. That man absolutely ruined some real gems over there.


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## Unicoidawg

LongBeard50 said:


> Let’s not confuse any of this. It is all about MONEY for both groups.



Really..... tell us something we don't all know.


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## Dupree

Sautee Ridgerunner said:


> Im honestly surprised an Alabama lynch mob hasnt shown up at Dave’z doorstep. That man absolutely ruined some real gems over there.[/QUOTE


I think THP has done more damage than Owens. They tell and show way too many clues as to where they are.


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## LongBeard50

Dupree said:


> I think THP has done more damage than Owens. They tell and show way too many clues as to where they are.



Of course they have in that regard, and they have a much larger following. Dave has done his fair share though. It’s the hypocrisy that bugs me about him. He used to talk down on people that would hunt south Florida with their buggies and side by sides. After he singlehandedly increased hunting pressure 10 fold down there, now he takes 2 buggies down to get away from the crowds.

I will say this, there is a reason chubbs doesn’t hunt with Dave much anymore, and it goes far beyond their schedules not lining up. Just listen to the podcast chubbs was on and you will get a good understanding about how he feels regarding all this social media bull.


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## Nicodemus

Those folks might be successful, but they were either never taught, or forgot the most important lesson in turkey hunting. And that is 

KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT


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## KentuckyHeadhunter

THP and Owens are definitely damaging turkey hunting on public lands for personal gain and notoriety.  I get tired of people saying how these guys are not only great turkey hunters but great woodsman.  I have yet to see any woodsmanship from any of these jokers.  Sleeping in a walmart parking lot in your truck and having all the latest gear and gadgets is what is being taught instead. 
There are 2 types of hunters and I shouldn't have to explain what that means.


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## Dupree

Well it’s true.


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## Unicoidawg

Dupree said:


> Well it’s true. View attachment 1097488



Now if that doesn't peeve you off I don't know what will. Absolutely uncalled for. There needs to be some push back on this. I mean I could maybe see it if they weren't screaming from the roof tops about a decline in birds and cutting seasons and opportunities.


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## kmckinnie

They looking for out of state license sales. It’s about revenue! Y’all are going to need more gates to park at. ?


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## Dupree




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## kmckinnie

The limit was not reduced to increase the turkey population ? and one bird a day. It was done that way to spread the wealth.?
Have you ever seen a good deed not punished ?


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## Whit90

This is eye opening... This is a bad move by THP and *our state.* I like their videos, but I dont know that I do anymore. 

What is the DNR thinking?!


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## Nicodemus

Dupree said:


> Well it’s true. View attachment 1097488




I don`t agree with this at all. I`m really disappointed in our DNR.


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## KentuckyHeadhunter

And I always get the stupid hard card
This is an absolute outrage!!!
"Spread awareness to Georgia hunting"?!?!?!?!?


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## Whit90

I know there is a lot of public land out west that it is illegal to video on for commercial use. If only there was a way to make it illegal to video for commercial use on ALL public land. That would end the influencers... But by the way the state is acting, that probably wouldn't happen.


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## bear claw

Cut the funds don't buy the hard copy anymore. It's sad that it's came to this.


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## Sixes

But, but ,but,  I am always hearing "if we do not grow the sport and get new hunters involved, we will lose it for everyone"

I've always been on the other side of the fence. Stop promoting it and trying to get non hunters to become hunters and Georgia hunting will be a lot greater for those of us that hunt because that is what we love to do and care nothing about getting out picture on social media.

I take pictures of everything that I kill, but rarely am I in the picture. It's not about me, it's about the game.


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## Whit90

We all need to flood some emails about this. Who do we reach out to? The turkey biologist, DNR Commissioner?

@Dupree , is Lacey anyone of importance, or just a random DNR contact?


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## LongBeard50

bear claw said:


> Cut the funds don't buy the hard copy anymore. It's sad that it's came to this.



Yes, three important things here:

1-quit buying the hard card

2-email the DNR about this garbage

3-STOP watching their videos and all social media content. These bozos will stop filming their hunts once the money dries up. It’s the single most effective way to combat this.


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## C.Killmaster

Whoa folks, don't go off the rails on this one.  I talked with Lacey (our Public Affairs Director) and the purpose was meant to promote public lands to new Georgia hunters who may not have land to hunt.  Also, I don't think it was turkey specific so the issues you all are referring to with non-residents may not apply with hunting other species.

This idea that the purpose is to increase non-resident license sales at the expense of GA public land turkeys is simply not true.


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## Whit90

LongBeard50 said:


> Yes, three important things here:
> 
> 1-quit buying the hard card
> 
> 2-email the DNR about this garbage
> 
> 3-STOP watching their videos and all social media content. These bozos will stop filming their hunts once the money dries up. It’s the single most effective way to combat this.



I hate to say it, but these youtubers are not going anywhere. There are way too many people out there that love watching the videos and are not concerned about the recourse. Just want to be like them.

And its about time everyone stop buying a hard copy card. its 2021 yall lol.


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## Whit90

C.Killmaster said:


> Whoa folks, don't go off the rails on this one.  I talked with Lacey (our Public Affairs Director) and the purpose was meant to promote public lands to new Georgia hunters who may not have land to hunt.  Also, I don't think it was turkey specific so the issues you all are referring to with non-residents may not apply with hunting other species.
> 
> This idea that the purpose is to increase non-resident license sales at the expense of GA public land turkeys is simply not true.




Intentional or not, promoting nonresident hunters to come to our state is what this partnership will do. I've watched the THP videos that say, "If your interested in hunting (whatever state they are in), there's a link in the description below for more info."

Just about everyone who watches their stuff watches because they like the idea of out of state hunting. That's the THP's whole model. 

This wouldn't be as big of a deal if our turkey situation was different.


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## Sautee Ridgerunner

Time to flood DNR with displeasure. This is ridiculous!!!!!!!


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## Sautee Ridgerunner

Our public lands need turkey hunters reduced tenfold. Not raped even more!


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## Dupree

whitney90 said:


> We all need to flood some emails about this. Who do we reach out to? The turkey biologist, DNR Commissioner?
> 
> @Dupree , is Lacey anyone of importance, or just a random DNR contact?


She is director of public affairs.


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## Dustin Pate

Sautee Ridgerunner said:


> Time to flood DNR with displeasure. This is ridiculous!!!!!!!




This needs to be in the deer hunting forum and a number of places. I have a feeling this would be frowned upon by all hunting groups within the state.

I enjoy watching THP, but I had no idea they were being paid by states to come hunt. Just wow....

An open records request to see how much is being spent might be well worth it as well.


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## Dupree

Dustin Pate said:


> This needs to be in the deer hunting forum and a number of places. I have a feeling this would be frowned upon by all hunting groups within the state.
> 
> I enjoy watching THP, but I had no idea they were being paid by states to come hunt. Just wow....
> 
> An open records request to see how much is being spent might be well worth it as well.


 I asked if any other youtubers are being paid and how much they are being paid. No response yet.


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## Dupree

C.Killmaster said:


> Whoa folks, don't go off the rails on this one.  I talked with Lacey (our Public Affairs Director) and the purpose was meant to promote public lands to new Georgia hunters who may not have land to hunt.  Also, I don't think it was turkey specific so the issues you all are referring to with non-residents may not apply with hunting other species.
> 
> This idea that the purpose is to increase non-resident license sales at the expense of GA public land turkeys is simply not true.


 900k+ views on a deer episode from 2020 and 600k+ On a turkey episode from 2021 were the most viewed episodes from the last 12 months. Both episodes were from Georgia. Curious to see how hat that muzzleloader hunt looks like this year.


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## Sautee Ridgerunner

I find them totally unwatchable but they apparently have quite a following.


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## Whit90

Weather it was intentional or not, having THP promote Ga is pretty much promoting the state to nonresidents. That is their whole deal... They travel around to different states and hunt. 

What a slap in the face for the state to pay someone to promote GA turkey hunting when the state already knew the population has been trashed and that they were about to lower the overall turkey hunting opportunities for 2022.


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## cddogfan1

Nicodemus said:


> I don`t agree with this at all. I`m really disappointed in our DNR.


Just like Nic.  I don't like this.  And to think I always buy the hard card thinking the little extra my help.  And to find out they are just wasting it.


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## Dustin Pate

cddogfan1 said:


> Just like Nic.  I don't like this.  And to think I always buy the hard card thinking the little extra my help.  And to find out they are just wasting it.



Especially when the regions are continually asked to cut their budgets. That's less food plots that get planted, etc. 

I'm sure they say the increased revenue offsets that, but it still is a hard pill to swallow.


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## Wolfman9

very disappointing to learn this. seems like the average GA hunter continues to get screwed


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## Buckman18

Unicoidawg said:


> I love watching their videos and various others as well, but.......... there is absolutely no reason for the State of GA to use our tax dollars to pay them or any others to try and bring more people in. Then turn around and take away time and change limits, Makes absolutely no sense. If DNR wants to do something they need to limit the numbers of NR's coming in and charge more for their licenses.
> 
> Dupree post what you find out.



Agree. We now have 10,000,000 residents,  many of them being transplants. We have enough people!


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## Sautee Ridgerunner

Did they really think that this wouldnt cause an enormous backlash?


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## ssramage

Dupree said:


> Well it’s true. View attachment 1097488



Again, the marketing tactics don't align with the strategy. If as stated elsewhere, the goal was to increase awareness of hunting opportunities for new GA hunters, then you wouldn't use a Midwest hunting show based on traveling to promote it. I'd be curious how much of their viewership are GA residents that don't hunt or are just starting. I'd also like to know how much was spent on this.

I'd be in favor of increasing NR license costs. We're pretty cheap compared to other states. I also feel like quota hunts should be limited to residents only, or people who obtained priority points while residents.  

I've seen firsthand how a very nice public resource was destroyed by NR hunters and overall poor management.


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## kmckinnie

ssramage said:


> Again, the marketing tactics don't align with the strategy. If as stated elsewhere, the goal was to increase awareness of hunting opportunities for new GA hunters, then you wouldn't use a Midwest hunting show based on traveling to promote it. I'd be curious how much of their viewership are GA residents that don't hunt or are just starting. I'd also like to know how much was spent on this.
> 
> I'd be in favor of increasing NR license costs. We're pretty cheap compared to other states. I also feel like quota hunts should be limited to residents only, or people who obtained priority points while residents.
> 
> I've seen firsthand how a very nice public resource was destroyed by NR hunters and overall poor management.


Sounds like u want to help with the revenue ??
Well why your Promoting it raise the  NR license cost. ?
What benefit does that do for you. 
I would also want to see this Proof u have that NR hunters destroyed public resources by them selfs. 
I see the revenue to private businesses the deer hunters do in south Ga. they bring money every week.

I don’t like the idea of promoting the hunting public with state funds. Especially after all the turkey declining talk. The north Ga decline was not NR hunters but something else no one understands yet. Habitat mostly.


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## LonePine

This makes me lose a lot of respect for the DNR Leadership that would sign off on this and The Hunting Public.  What a joke. Have to get to the gate at the local WMA 3 hours before sun up already.  Every piece of huntable land is GA is leased solid for top $ and these clowns think we need more hunters and spent funds better used for other things to promote that.


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## Athos

This seems incredibly stupid.


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## Gator89

I only "like" and watch the shows that take me hunting with them.


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## tree cutter 08

Just another example of our gov at work. I'm ticked about a lot of stuff that needs to be maintained that don't and some of that money could go to fix things so our residents could benefit from it!!!!!!  Man things were better back in the day before the internet came along.


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## Sixes

ssramage said:


> Again, the marketing tactics don't align with the strategy. If as stated elsewhere, the goal was to increase awareness of hunting opportunities for new GA hunters, then you wouldn't use a Midwest hunting show based on traveling to promote it. I'd be curious how much of their viewership are GA residents that don't hunt or are just starting. I'd also like to know how much was spent on this.
> 
> I'd be in favor of increasing NR license costs. We're pretty cheap compared to other states. I also feel like quota hunts should be limited to residents only, or people who obtained priority points while residents.
> 
> I've seen firsthand how a very nice public resource was destroyed by NR hunters and overall poor management.


I agree.  Paying a group that's whole intention is to promote and hunt public land is not in any way going to influence move ins that don't hunt or want to hunt. 98+% of the THP's audience are hunters, that is why they are watching their videos, not some move in from Cali thinking he might want to suddenly hunt


It is strictly to promote the out of state hunting and to bring in those dollars at the expense of residents.  Why else would they talk about what a great deal hunters get in Georgia. It's really a great deal when you aren't paying.


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## Sixes

How do you find out if this was also paid out in 2020, during covid?


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## Whit90

tree cutter 08 said:


> Just another example of our gov at work. I'm ticked about a lot of stuff that needs to be maintained that don't and some of that money could go to fix things so our residents could benefit from it!!!!!!  Man things were better back in the day before the internet came along.




No kidding... Technology will one day ruin just about everything.


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## KevChap

whitney90 said:


> No kidding... Technology will one day ruin just about everything.


It's already started.. when I was a kid we enjoyed hunting, deer camp and killing deer. Now this new generation has to have 1000 dollar camo and only shoot 140 inch deer because it's all they see on YouTube. I'm gonna start commenting on hunting public videos until they get tired of me


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## Whit90

Send in your remarks on this issue to: lacey.creech@dnr.ga.gov
She is the DNR's director of public affairs. 

Please note, that I am not sure if she is the correct person to receive emails on issues like this, but I would assume that she should be able to get it to the correct recipient.


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## across the river

Here are the actual resident and non-resident license sales statistics.  From 2018 to 2020 both resident and *non-resident* GA license sales actually decreased. But hey, not let facts get in the way of emotion.

https://www.fws.gov/wsfrprograms/subpages/licenseinfo/hunting.htm


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## Dupree

across the river said:


> Here are the actual resident and non-resident license sales statistics.  From 2018 to 2020 both resident and *non-resident* GA license sales actually decreased. But hey, not let facts get in the way of emotion.
> 
> https://www.fws.gov/wsfrprograms/subpages/licenseinfo/hunting.htm


How much public land in Georgia do you hunt?


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## Whit90

across the river said:


> Here are the actual resident and non-resident license sales statistics.  From 2018 to 2020 both resident and *non-resident* GA license sales actually decreased. But hey, not let facts get in the way of emotion.
> 
> https://www.fws.gov/wsfrprograms/subpages/licenseinfo/hunting.htm



We don’t want our DNR promoting “come hunt our turkeys!” When our turkey populations are not great… what’s wrong with that.


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## bfriendly

I can’t hate the boys for making a living doing a dream job…..I’m sure it wasn’t always like this. And I doubt they have nor had any ill intentions. Most states are trying to get people to come spend their money…..res and non res. I doubt there would be hunting lands if there were no hunters either. I get the overcrowding and lack of game, I’m a public land prowler too. 
 I like y’all voicing opinions but please don’t start sounding like a woke crowd and trying to shut down a good group of guys.  There are Quite a few folks that film their hunts and if they got enough attention and a tv show I doubt anyone would turn it down……just saying


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## bfriendly

I.ain’t buying a hard card for sure now though


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## Nicodemus

bfriendly said:


> I can’t hate the boys for making a living doing a dream job…..I’m sure it wasn’t always like this. And I doubt they have nor had any ill intentions. Most states are trying to get people to come spend their money…..res and non res. I doubt there would be hunting lands if there were no hunters either. I get the overcrowding and lack of game, I’m a public land prowler too.
> I like y’all voicing opinions but please don’t start sounding like a woke crowd and trying to shut down a good group of guys.  There are Quite a few folks that film their hunts and if they got enough attention and a tv show I doubt anyone would turn it down……just saying




Would you care to wager on that? And if so, how much?


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## Throwback

Under state budget rules if money for the card is earmarked for public relations it can’t be used for anything else. Just a little clarification.


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## Whit90

Here is another outlet to send your comments. 

https://gadnr.org/sendemail


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## across the river

Dupree said:


> How much public land in Georgia do you hunt?



Not near as much as I used to, but I still do some. Is it more crowded that it was at one time, absolutely.  Heck, duck hunters went through this whole thing years ago, so it is nothin new.  I'm just saying if you look at the license sales, they increase dramatically from the 90s or 2000 to 2016 or so.  They have dropped over the last two years, which is when THP would have impacted them.   There is no evidence that THP is increasing nonresident hunting overall.  Could it increase traffic on a particular WMA, maybe, but so could COVID or any other number of factors.   I just don't get the attitude that people have that the DNR is supposed to maintain some prime public hunting ground for them.  It doesn't work like that.  I don't expect the DNR to change the rules because the WMA I hunted 20 or 30 years ago has less turkeys and ducks and more people.   It is what it is. The DNR is tasked with growing the sport, no shrinking to keep disgruntled public land hunters happy.


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## GSPEED

across the river said:


> Not near as much as I used to, but I still do some. Is it more crowded that it was at one time, absolutely.  Heck, duck hunters went through this whole thing years ago, so it is nothin new.  I'm just saying if you look at the license sales, they increase dramatically from the 90s or 2000 to 2016 or so.  They have dropped over the last two years, which is when THP would have impacted them.   There is no evidence that THP is increasing nonresident hunting overall.  Could it increase traffic on a particular WMA, maybe, but so could COVID or any other number of factors.   I just don't get the attitude that people have that the DNR is supposed to maintain some prime public hunting ground for them.  It doesn't work like that.  I don't expect the DNR to change the rules because the WMA I hunted 20 or 30 years ago has less turkeys and ducks and more people.   It is what it is. The DNR is tasked with growing the sport, no shrinking to keep disgruntled public land hunters happy.


You’re right again. What makes people think that the DNR should maintain public land or change the rules so there’s more opportunities just because they spend there money and time wanting to hunt. Crazy right. I think its a good thing to spend money to grow the sport on the THP instead of better management,don’t you. I think you’re starting to get through to me.


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## FLGobstopper

If it makes y'all feel any better the number of non-res hunters in FL has about tripled since 2009. We all now most people aren't coming to FL to deer, so good bet it's mostly turkeys and gators.

Yeah I'm a non-res public land GA hunter so I know to some I might be seen as just another out of stater. But I have been spending parts of my spring in GA for about 20 years and just love the opportunities y'all have there and the diversity of terrain. I'm just as concerned as anyone about what's been happening to turkeys in general in GA but especially on public land. Birds just aren't there and the people are there. It's affecting me in GA on some places I love and it cuts deeper and deeper every year and I live close enough I'm willing to do whatever I can to help insure we have them for generations to come.

I'm very concerned for the future in GA and feeling it at home here in FL as well. FL already has tons of problems of it's own and I could go on and on and on about our situations here. But, my point is that we should all be concerned because, resident or non-resident we are all loosing out with the way things are headed. WE need our public lands managed well, enhanced and protected while also aggressively working to open up more and more public lands. WE need more opportunity, but quality opportunity as well. As much as some don't like it WE need more new hunters entering the fold, who will join with seasoned hunters to advocate for all of these and just as important our turkeys and other wildlife.

One of the problems I see is that there's a lot of talk about recruitment and R3. I hear we're seeing a move of numbers rising across states as hunters travel and are more mobile which social media, the hunting industry, YouTube, forums, etc, etc have all impacted in varying degrees. We might not be seeing much actual recruitment and development of the things I mentioned above as we are a redistribution of hunters from place to place as people travel farther, longer and more often to hunt. It's just a lot easier today then it was even 5 years ago.

Another thing and I think this is the biggest and most dangerous issue is that I think we're seeing a change of the why we play the game or a change of the motivators and influencers of why people are turkey hunting or any kind of hunting today.

In short... it's a whole lot easier to do today then it was yesterday, it's a whole lot easier to go farther this year then it was last year, it's a whole lot easier to be the hero hunter to get the glory and show the world. These things adding up don't help add to our turkey and other game populations that's for sure. We're moving more towards take, take, take and not as much given then we have been over the past 40-50 years.


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## across the river

GSPEED said:


> You’re right again. What makes people think that the DNR should maintain public land or change the rules so there’s more opportunities just because they spend there money and time wanting to hunt. Crazy right. I think its a good thing to spend money to grow the sport on the THP instead of better management,don’t you. I think you’re starting to get through to me.




Here is the Georgia budget, which includes the Department of Natural Resources.  A lot of understanding of some of this stuff can be gained by just taking the time to educate yourself a little on what goes on behind the scenes. 

https://opb.georgia.gov/document/go...-and-fy-2022-governors-budget-report/download


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## Whit90

across the river said:


> Not near as much as I used to, but I still do some. Is it more crowded that it was at one time, absolutely.  Heck, duck hunters went through this whole thing years ago, so it is nothin new.  I'm just saying if you look at the license sales, they increase dramatically from the 90s or 2000 to 2016 or so.  They have dropped over the last two years, which is when THP would have impacted them.   There is no evidence that THP is increasing nonresident hunting overall.  Could it increase traffic on a particular WMA, maybe, but so could COVID or any other number of factors.   I just don't get the attitude that people have that the DNR is supposed to maintain some prime public hunting ground for them.  It doesn't work like that.  I don't expect the DNR to change the rules because the WMA I hunted 20 or 30 years ago has less turkeys and ducks and more people.   It is what it is. The DNR is tasked with growing the sport, no shrinking to keep disgruntled public land hunters happy.



Some might dislike THP because they promote public lands in our, and other states, but to me it’s not about THP or any other “influencer”. It’s about our state DNR spending our license dollars to pay an “influencer” to promote a Georgia resource that has been on the decline for quite a while now. 

The license sales may have not rose during the period of the THP promotion, but our state making the choice to pay someone to promote Georgia turkey hunting is the real problem.


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## Big7

So. I hunt turkey on private land so I don't keep up with nothing but season dates and limit.

Having said that: what is this THP and does anyone know where Georgia stands in the bordering states as to rank in NR destinations for turkey?

And... Maybe change NR dates and limits and not resident?

I might rethink this next question later...
So, why not change the limit for a few years period? Wouldn't that discourage NR licenses and give the declining population time to recover?
Heck.. I'd even go for a fall season to split things up so R's would have even more opportunities and the NR's would have to invest in more trips to Georgia.

Just curious as I might hunt public a little because there are some decent spots closer than where I would be interested in a deer or deer/turkey lease.

Thanks.


----------



## Big7

across the river said:


> Here is the Georgia budget, which includes the Department of Natural Resources.  A lot of understanding of some of this stuff can be gained by just taking the time to educate yourself a little on what goes on behind the scenes.
> 
> https://opb.georgia.gov/document/go...-and-fy-2022-governors-budget-report/download


Do you have the short version as it pertains to just turkey hunting?


----------



## twoheartedale

What do you mean it's all about the money? You boys acted surprised.  Easy problem to fix, 500 to 600 dollar non resident hunting license should help.


----------



## elfiii

I completely understand WRD's logic, misplaced as it is. Their goal is new hunter recruitment to replace those of us who are too old or decided to give it up and our numbers are definitely dropping.

New hunter recruitment is rightfully the responsibility of "old" hunters. Part of the solution is us doing our job and taking a kid or a young adult hunting and opening up our world to them so the government doesn't feel compelled to do it for us.

I agree this is a bad allocation of a scarce resource (money) and I also believe there isn't much the government does that the private sector couldn't do better (WRD excepted) but if we're not willing to sacrifice an opportunity or two to kill a deer or a turkey so that a young or new hunter can experience the thrill and hopefully follow in our footsteps then we have nobody to blame for this other than ourselves and our beloved traditions will die.

The same ethic applies to us and how many turkeys we each kill. "Limit your kill, don't kill your limit." In the Deer hunting forum you'll see lots of people saying "I need 3 deer a year to feed my family". No, you don't need any deer a year to feed your family. Same goes for turkeys. None of us are subsistence hunters. We do it because it's fun, plain and simple.

This ain't about us. It's about the future of our tradition and the resource. If we don't put those first then we're goners for sure. Buying a license is the first step in doing your part. Being selective in what you kill is the next step. Our bigger responsibility is passing it on to a newbie. Take one hunting or fishing today so the government doesn't have to do it for us.


----------



## across the river

Big7 said:


> Do you have the short version as it pertains to just turkey hunting?




In short, if your revenue is less than your spend, the excess money has to come from somewhere.  For the Georgia DNR, the revenue they bring in from fees, licenses, etc.... doesn't even make up half of the money the are appropriated by the state, which means that over 50% of their budget comes from taxpayers, many who don't hunt or may even not support hunting.  If you look at the projected revenue for 2022, it is actually projected to decrease.  Now that inflation is running higher than normal, which many think will continue, having your revenue flat or decreasing doesn't put you in a great position, whether you are a business or the DNR.  Considering cost will likely to continue to be a issue, I'm sure the DNR logically understands that they are well below many other departments in terms of priority if and when additional cuts or money juggling occurs.  So while people on here are so highly concerned with THP and the increase in OOS hunters at the WMA they have turkey hunted since 1990, the DNR has a much bigger problem staring them in the face.  Like it or not, agree with it or not, there is a reason they are trying to increase hunter recruitment.   Look at the bright side though, when the budget gets cut  and they have to raise license prices again, cut managed hunts, sell state land off, etc.... it will give all the people one more thing to complain about.


----------



## cowhornedspike

Georgia is a MAJOR destination state for oos hunters, particularly from FL for deer obviously but from all over for turkey, and I think we could lighten the load on the resources AND keep up or increase the inflow of money by limiting the oos opportunities and raising the cost...a bunch.  I'm not anti oos.  I go many places oos to hunt each year BUT I also pay very high costs to do so and compete with other oos hunters for the chances available and believe that keeps the experience better than it would be if it weren't that way.  Time for GA to follow suit and limit the oos both by very limited oos quota odds and much higher oos license costs.  
I'm sure ATR will be along shortly to tell my why I am wrong.


----------



## DAVE

Tribalism, a very dangerous human trait and when on display a very ugly one also.


----------



## Nicodemus

Lot of difference between tribalism and voicing an opinion. But that`s not the subject in this thread.


----------



## across the river

cowhornedspike said:


> Georgia is a MAJOR destination state for oos hunters, particularly from FL for deer obviously but from all over for turkey, and I think we could lighten the load on the resources AND keep up or increase the inflow of money by limiting the oos opportunities and raising the cost...a bunch.  I'm not anti oos.  I go many places oos to hunt each year BUT I also pay very high costs to do so and compete with other oos hunters for the chances available and believe that keeps the experience better than it would be if it weren't that way.  Time for GA to follow suit and limit the oos both by very limited oos quota odds and much higher oos license costs.
> I'm sure ATR will be along shortly to tell my why I am wrong.



Funny, how I actually post real real information and not just spew some emotional rants, and I'm the bad guy. Cracks me up. 

So what state are you following suit on?  Colorado, Utah, Montana, or one of these other states that is 30, 40, or 50 plus percent public to begin with, and have elk, moose, and pronghorn that are limited in numbers across the country.   Georgia is less than 10% and has way more people living here and has only pine goats and turkeys.   Are you limiting just public land opportunities or private land opportunities as well for OOSers.  If it just public OOSers, have you really done anything if you run them all off of public?   In the grand scheme of things there aren't that many of them, and dang sure aren't enough to raise any significant money if you raise fees even 100%.   Most OOSers are hunting private anyway, so are you taking there license fee up. How much , and how much does it generate?  At what point does the increased license fee for a pine goat not justify the cost to pay for a OOS license.  At that point your revenue actually decreases, so you are worse off.  What do you tell the guys leasing land to them or the restaurant the frequent during hunting season when they stop coming up from Florida or down from North Carolina.   Nothing exists in a vacuum. 

In reality, there isn't that much public land in Georgia.  If you truly want to reduce the pressure on public land, and that is the ultimate goal,  you go with the WMA stamp type deal and raise the price on it dramatically or make most everything quota, but that doesn't increase revenue.  That would obviously reduce the demand from residents and OOSers as well, but then you get to the point that the people who need and depend on hunting public land get priced or pushed out.  Then we get to come on here and here the same people fuss about how much it cost to hunt a WMA. 

If you guys think the DNR guys don't consider all this factors, your are delusional.  Everyone wants to look at a situation from their own personal viewpoint and through the lens of that viewpoint only.   If I'm not seeing deer on my place, the DNR needs to reduce the limits, even if there are plenty of deer all around me.  Turkey populations aren't what they once were on my place, the DNR needs to fix it.   I see an out of state tag on a WMA and larger crowds here in general,  the DNR need to fix it and stop partnering with THP, even though it had nothing to do with turkeys.   Problems are always easy to fix when you feel you have no responsibility for the issue and you can just get to sit back and fuss about it from your own viewpoint.


----------



## Nicodemus

across the river said:


> Funny, how I actually post real real information and not just spew some emotional rants, and I'm the bad guy. Cracks me up.
> 
> So what state are you following suit on?  Colorado, Utah, Montana, or one of these other states that is 30, 40, or 50 plus percent public to begin with, and have elk, moose, and pronghorn that are limited in numbers across the country.   Georgia is less than 10% and has way more people living here and has only pine goats and turkeys.   Are you limiting just public land opportunities or private land opportunities as well for OOSers.  If it just public OOSers, have you really done anything if you run them all off of public?   In the grand scheme of things there aren't that many of them, and dang sure aren't enough to raise any significant money if you raise fees even 100%.   Most OOSers are hunting private anyway, so are you taking there license fee up. How much , and how much does it generate?  At what point does the increased license fee for a pine goat not justify the cost to pay for a OOS license.  At that point your revenue actually decreases, so you are worse off.  What do you tell the guys leasing land to them or the restaurant the frequent during hunting season when they stop coming up from Florida or down from North Carolina.   Nothing exists in a vacuum.
> 
> In reality, there isn't that much public land in Georgia.  If you truly want to reduce the pressure on public land, and that is the ultimate goal,  you go with the WMA stamp type deal and raise the price on it dramatically or make most everything quota, but that doesn't increase revenue.  That would obviously reduce the demand from residents and OOSers as well, but then you get to the point that the people who need and depend on hunting public land get priced or pushed out.  Then we get to come on here and here the same people fuss about how much it cost to hunt a WMA.
> 
> If you guys think the DNR guys don't consider all this factors, your are delusional.  Everyone wants to look at a situation from their own personal viewpoint and through the lens of that viewpoint only.   If I'm not seeing deer on my place, the DNR needs to reduce the limits, even if there are plenty of deer all around me.  Turkey populations aren't what they once were on my place, the DNR needs to fix it.   I see an out of state tag on a WMA and larger crowds here in general,  the DNR need to fix it and stop partnering with THP, even though it had nothing to do with turkeys.   Problems are always easy to fix when you feel you have no responsibility for the issue and you can just get to sit back and fuss about it from your own viewpoint.




You might be a real smart man, but your presentations and lectures lack a lot.

Take that for what it`s worth.


----------



## across the river

Nicodemus said:


> You might be a real smart man, but your presentations and lectures lack a lot.
> 
> Take that for what it`s worth.




So, what do you think the solution is?  WMA's are overcrowded, turkey populations have declined, revenues are dropping.  What is the answer?   It is always easy to point out a problem and make blanket general statements, but what is the answer?  My point in all of this is the people act like the DNR is staffed by a bunch of idiots.  Do I agree with everything the DNR does, no not at all.   But if you take five minute to do a little research on something rather than spend it complaining, you can start to understand why things are the way they are and have changed in the last 20+ years. 

I grew up hunting quail as a kid in an area they are now practically extinct, turkeys populations in the area are a small percentage of what they once were, the WMAs that practically no one hunted is now packed, and the lake has way more people fishing on it that it used to.  None of that is the DNRs fault, and I'm no foolish enough to think they are going to "fix it" for me just because I don't like how things have changed.


----------



## Nicodemus

across the river said:


> So, what do you think the solution is?  WMA's are overcrowded, turkey populations have declined, revenues are dropping.  What is the answer?   It is always easy to point out a problem and make blanket general statements, but what is the answer?  My point in all of this is the people act like the DNR is staffed by a bunch of idiots.  Do I agree with everything the DNR does, no not at all.   But if you take five minute to do a little research on something rather than spend it complaining, you can start to understand why things are the way they are and have changed in the last 20+ years.
> 
> I grew up hunting quail as a kid in an area they are now practically extinct, turkeys populations in the area are a small percentage of what they once were, the WMAs that practically no one hunted is now packed, and the lake has way more people fishing on it that it used to.  None of that is the DNRs fault, and I'm no foolish enough to think they are going to "fix it" for me just because I don't like how things have changed.




I don`t know.


----------



## Sautee Ridgerunner

across the river said:


> So, what do you think the solution is?  WMA's are overcrowded, turkey populations have declined, revenues are dropping.  What is the answer?   It is always easy to point out a problem and make blanket general statements, but what is the answer?  My point in all of this is the people act like the DNR is staffed by a bunch of idiots.  Do I agree with everything the DNR does, no not at all.   But if you take five minute to do a little research on something rather than spend it complaining, you can start to understand why things are the way they are and have changed in the last 20+ years.
> 
> I grew up hunting quail as a kid in an area they are now practically extinct, turkeys populations in the area are a small percentage of what they once were, the WMAs that practically no one hunted is now packed, and the lake has way more people fishing on it that it used to.  None of that is the DNRs fault, and I'm no foolish enough to think they are going to "fix it" for me just because I don't like how things have changed.



Nobody asked for the DNR to fix this or work any other miracle. We are asking them not to spend our money making the situation worse. If you cannot grasp the concept, you should abandon the conversation.


----------



## across the river

Sautee Ridgerunner said:


> Nobody asked for the DNR to fix this or work any other miracle. We are asking them not to spend our money making the situation worse. If you cannot grasp the concept, you should abandon the conversation.



Whit situation?  So you want the DNR, facing declining revenue and rising costs, to stop recruiting trying to recruit new hunters because the WMA is already too crowded in* your* opinion.  
Trying to grasp the "concept" of which you speak.


----------



## NCHillbilly

across the river said:


> Whit situation?  So you want the DNR, facing declining revenue and rising costs, to stop recruiting trying to recruit new hunters because the WMA is already too crowded in* your* opinion.
> Trying to grasp the "concept" of which you speak.


I don't see the need to "recruit" new hunters. There isn't hardly an acre of ground in the southeastern US that doesn't have somebody already hunting on it. There is no shortage of hunters, by any measure.


----------



## turkeykirk

The old timers must be rolling in their graves. They wouldn’t hardly show or tell you anything about turkey hunting.


----------



## GSPEED

across the river said:


> Whit situation?  So you want the DNR, facing declining revenue and rising costs, to stop recruiting trying to recruit new hunters because the WMA is already too crowded in* your* opinion.
> Trying to grasp the "concept" of which you speak.


Well on a positive note at least you don’t work for the DNR. Wait a minute, do you? In the deer management plan it says that the DNR WRD is charged by state law with management and conservation of Georgia’s wildlife resources for present and future generations. Concept that! And you don’t have to worry about overcrowding on any of these mountain WMA’s as very few are hunting them anymore, wonder why? Nobody is going to spend there money the same as someone else’s money.


----------



## Nicodemus

turkeykirk said:


> The old timers must be rolling in their graves. They wouldn’t hardly show or tell you anything about turkey hunting.




That`s for sure and for certain. I`m thankful I was taught those Respected Elders.


----------



## The Original Rooster

turkeykirk said:


> The old timers must be rolling in their graves. They wouldn’t hardly show or tell you anything about turkey hunting.





Nicodemus said:


> That`s for sure and for certain. I`m thankful I was taught those Respected Elders.


Ain't that the truth. Ol' Walt wouldn't even bring turkey lunch meat to camp for sandwiches because he was afraid everybody else would figure out that he liked hunting them.


----------



## RedHills

We gotta think different....what we need to do is get PETA organized against all the Youtubers, all of em, slaughtering these innocent animals! Yep, nip it in the bud. Then we can get back to the good old days of rifle huntn em, chasn em with dogs, and lining em up in a corn ditch. Geez, WE collectively have never been able to sustain a natural resource, in todays world can't be many left who thinks we can now....or even prepared to participate in it.


----------



## LTFDretired

I had fun back in the early 90’s hunting turkeys.


----------



## antharper

turkeykirk said:


> The old timers must be rolling in their graves. They wouldn’t hardly show or tell you anything about turkey hunting.


I was taught 40 years ago not to tell anyone where u hear a turkey and for sure not to teach anyone how to kill one ?


----------



## Deerhunter12454

Turkey numbers are on the decline for multiple reasons. Doesn't matter what DNR does, a group of people will gripe. 

DNR used the funds ear marked for public relations, in a way to bring more money to the state. They lost a lot of money with introducing life time licenses. I've noticed over the last few years, turkey numbers are nowhere where they used to be. I'd average a flock of turkeys every other hunt during deer season, now i may see one in a year. It's a National issue, Georgia is trying to take proactive steps to increase the number of Turkeys. Maybe if the State hired trappers to take out nest predators and coyotes, and did more burn rotations y'all would see the bounce back. I didn't see my first covey of quail until my leases were cut. 
People wont save something if they dont love it. 

I don't hunt turkeys, being that i have no clue how, but I trust what DNR does because trust me, you're not in their field of work if you dont love Wildlife.


----------



## LongBeard50

across the river said:


> So, what do you think the solution is?  WMA's are overcrowded, turkey populations have declined, revenues are dropping.  What is the answer?   It is always easy to point out a problem and make blanket general statements, but what is the answer?  My point in all of this is the people act like the DNR is staffed by a bunch of idiots.  Do I agree with everything the DNR does, no not at all.   But if you take five minute to do a little research on something rather than spend it complaining, you can start to understand why things are the way they are and have changed in the last 20+ years.
> 
> I grew up hunting quail as a kid in an area they are now practically extinct, turkeys populations in the area are a small percentage of what they once were, the WMAs that practically no one hunted is now packed, and the lake has way more people fishing on it that it used to.  None of that is the DNRs fault, and I'm no foolish enough to think they are going to "fix it" for me just because I don't like how things have changed.



If all of these “natural resources” such as turkey, quails etc. have drastically declined as you surmise, perhaps the department of “natural resources” is doing a terrible job. You might want to rethink your stance on them not being a bunch of idiots. Sounds like they are inept to me.


----------



## across the river

LongBeard50 said:


> If all of these “natural resources” such as turkey, quails etc. have drastically declined as you surmise, perhaps the department of “natural resources” is doing a terrible job. You might want to rethink your stance on them not being a bunch of idiots. Sounds like they are inept to me.



I don’t know why I even bother,  but here we go. Less than 10% of Georgia is public land, and an even smaller percentage is huntable or suitable for wildlife.  A large portion of that is federally owned, so the DNR can’t even manage it if they wanted to.  The DNR can’t control what people do with there own private land, and they have an extremely small amount of land in the state they even have the ability to manage.   The small farms, fence rows, native grass fields, and mixed habitat that covered the state years ago weren’t a result of the DNR management, and the disappearance of this habitat has nothing to do with the DNR either.  Habitat is the #1 factor that determine wildlife populations.  Good habitat, you typically have a high population.  Poor habitat, it is typically low. They have input(control) over season dates and limits.  That’s it.  When a big tract of land is turned to a neighborhood, cow pasture or a strip mall,  or land is cleared to commercial farm, or a mixed forest is clear cut and replanted all in slash pine, the DNR has zero control of that. Zero. They could have eliminated quail season altogether years ago, and we would be in the exact same place due to habitat changes they can’t control.  Same thing for turkeys. If you have 20 people on a 200 acre timber company lease, you will likely have poorer habitat, and less deer, turkey, etc…. than the guy down the road with 1000acres of heavily managed property. The DNR can’t wave a magic wand and make everyone’s hunting equal.  It really isn’t that hard to understand.  I’m not sure why people have such difficulty with it.


----------



## Son

Eventually, only cameras will be allowed for turkey hunting, and there will be a huge fee for license. Bright flashes from a camera illegal, it's tough on those sharp eyes etc. I enjoy watching turkeys all during the year, especially during deer season. But I do like to take a couple in the spring, sometimes three. But not always. Depends on how many I've been seeing.


----------



## transfixer

C.Killmaster said:


> Whoa folks, don't go off the rails on this one.  I talked with Lacey (our Public Affairs Director) and the purpose was meant to promote public lands to new Georgia hunters who may not have land to hunt.  Also, I don't think it was turkey specific so the issues you all are referring to with non-residents may not apply with hunting other species.
> 
> This idea that the purpose is to increase non-resident license sales at the expense of GA public land turkeys is simply not true.



  Those videos reach many more out of state hunters than they will new Resident hunters,   a ridiculous move in my opinion and other hunters I have talked with since learning this,  

    and if the Hard card money is used for this ?  then I will no longer be purchasing a hard card, and those I hunt with in my club won't either I'm sure,  along with everyone else I can tell about it,    I appreciate the work the DNR guys in the field do,  and with the shortage of available game wardens I feel DNR money definitely could be better allocated than this,  

     I have been really disappointed in most of the decisions the upper management of DNR has made in recent years,,,  I seriously doubt my grandchildren will ever know how great our state was for hunting in years past,  because the direction the DNR has been going seems to be to increase revenue income and not to preserve the quality of hunting.


----------



## bfriendly

Nicodemus said:


> Would you care to wager on that? And if so, how much?


Of course there are are always a select few. I should have said very few would turn it down. Very few


----------



## Throwback

Big7 said:


> Do you have the short version as it pertains to just turkey hunting?



To get that detailed you’d probably have to do a GORA request about the Turkey management program 


across the river said:


> In short, if your revenue is less than your spend, the excess money has to come from somewhere.  For the Georgia DNR, the revenue they bring in from fees, licenses, etc.... doesn't even make up half of the money the are appropriated by the state, which means that over 50% of their budget comes from taxpayers, many who don't hunt or may even not support hunting.  If you look at the projected revenue for 2022, it is actually projected to decrease.  Now that inflation is running higher than normal, which many think will continue, having your revenue flat or decreasing doesn't put you in a great position, whether you are a business or the DNR.  Considering cost will likely to continue to be a issue, I'm sure the DNR logically understands that they are well below many other departments in terms of priority if and when additional cuts or money juggling occurs.  So while people on here are so highly concerned with THP and the increase in OOS hunters at the WMA they have turkey hunted since 1990, the DNR has a much bigger problem staring them in the face.  Like it or not, agree with it or not, there is a reason they are trying to increase hunter recruitment.   Look at the bright side though, when the budget gets cut  and they have to raise license prices again, cut managed hunts, sell state land off, etc.... it will give all the people one more thing to complain about.



you should also add that a very large percentage of licensed hunters in the last 40 years or so have been baby boom generation age. Losing that chunk of people (revenue) is not insignificant.


----------



## Throwback

across the river said:


> I don’t know why I even bother,  but here we go. Less than 10% of Georgia is public land, and an even smaller percentage is huntable or suitable for wildlife.  A large portion of that is federally owned, so the DNR can’t even manage it if they wanted to.  The DNR can’t control what people do with there own private land, and they have an extremely small amount of land in the state they even have the ability to manage.   The small farms, fence rows, native grass fields, and mixed habitat that covered the state years ago weren’t a result of the DNR management, and the disappearance of this habitat has nothing to do with the DNR either.  Habitat is the #1 factor that determine wildlife populations.  Good habitat, you typically have a high population.  Poor habitat, it is typically low. They have input(control) over season dates and limits.  That’s it.  When a big tract of land is turned to a neighborhood, cow pasture or a strip mall,  or land is cleared to commercial farm, or a mixed forest is clear cut and replanted all in slash pine, the DNR has zero control of that. Zero. They could have eliminated quail season altogether years ago, and we would be in the exact same place due to habitat changes they can’t control.  Same thing for turkeys. If you have 20 people on a 200 acre timber company lease, you will likely have poorer habitat, and less deer, turkey, etc…. than the guy down the road with 1000acres of heavily managed property. The DNR can’t wave a magic wand and make everyone’s hunting equal.  It really isn’t that hard to understand.  I’m not sure why people have such difficulty with it.



Yep. Two neighboring properties totaling several thousand acres were mixed pine/hardwood and cut with a small log truck and crews up until about the mid 1990’s. Both properties were absolutely teeming with wildlife. They left the oaks in the bottoms, sweet gum and poplar had no real value so they were left too. About the late 80’s  the local mill found a way to use hardwood for plywood. Then they started cutting from property line to property line and replanting in all lines. We now have a severely reduced wildlife population as a result. 

Heard county as a whole especially the lower end which is mostly owned by timber companies is a good example of the same on a larger scale.


----------



## Big7

Throwback said:


> To get that detailed you’d probably have to do a GORA request about the Turkey management program
> 
> 
> you should also add that a very large percentage of licensed hunters in the last 40 years or so have been baby boom generation age. Losing that chunk of people (revenue) is not insignificant.


I'm a late boomer. Still got a few seasons in me.
Hope they don't mess up the turkey population.

I can remember when there was very, very few turkey, at least north of I-20.


----------



## willie1971

NCHillbilly said:


> I don't see the need to "recruit" new hunters. There isn't hardly an acre of ground in the southeastern US that doesn't have somebody already hunting on it. There is no shortage of hunters, by any measure.



that is so true.


----------



## willie1971

heck i can't keep poachers away.  the LEOs can only do so much.  some help, some don't.


----------



## XIronheadX

630,000 roaming hunters overall, trying to kill 1.27 million deer, and less than half of 300k+ turkeys, and other assorted game. What's there to wonder about? Too many humans and decreasing land and opportunity. Maybe less emphasis on killing, and more on producing. Or better yet, save and spend your money on an environment you have more control over. I wish it was 1980 again, but its 2021.


----------



## Whit90

Deerhunter12454 said:


> Turkey numbers are on the decline for multiple reasons. Doesn't matter what DNR does, a group of people will gripe.
> 
> DNR used the funds ear marked for public relations, in a way to bring more money to the state. They lost a lot of money with introducing life time licenses. I've noticed over the last few years, turkey numbers are nowhere where they used to be. I'd average a flock of turkeys every other hunt during deer season, now i may see one in a year. It's a National issue, Georgia is trying to take proactive steps to increase the number of Turkeys. Maybe if the State hired trappers to take out nest predators and coyotes, and did more burn rotations y'all would see the bounce back. I didn't see my first covey of quail until my leases were cut.
> People wont save something if they dont love it.
> 
> I don't hunt turkeys, being that i have no clue how, but I trust what DNR does because trust me, you're not in their field of work if you dont love Wildlife.




Ive got a buddy that went to ABAC. He had friends that all went the wildlife route, both to the public and private sector. He said the ones that went to the private sector were hands down just better than the ones that went to the public sector. They were true outdoorsmen that had a lot of common sense and soaked up all of their schooling. He told me the ones that went to the public sector were just goobers... 

Im sure most DNR employees are great, but my buddy saw it first hand that the really skilled guys (in his group of friends) did not go public.


----------



## XIronheadX

whitney90 said:


> Ive got a buddy that went to ABAC. He had friends that all went the wildlife route, both to the public and private sector. He said the ones that went to the private sector were hands down just better than the ones that went to the public sector. They were true outdoorsmen that had a lot of common sense and soaked up all of their schooling. He told me the ones that went to the public sector were just goobers...
> 
> Im sure most DNR employees are great, but my buddy saw it first hand that the really skilled guys (in his group of friends) did not go public.


That's about the worst offhanded slap at the DNR I've seen in a while. 

You can't have it all for less than $100 a year. The entitlement on this planet is mind boggling.


----------



## Whit90

XIronheadX said:


> That's about the worst offhanded slap at the DNR I've seen in a while.
> 
> You can't have it all for less than $100 a year. The entitlement on this planet is mind boggling.




Just relaying what my buddy saw in his small class.


----------



## LongBeard50

across the river said:


> I don’t know why I even bother,  but here we go. Less than 10% of Georgia is public land, and an even smaller percentage is huntable or suitable for wildlife.  A large portion of that is federally owned, so the DNR can’t even manage it if they wanted to.  The DNR can’t control what people do with there own private land, and they have an extremely small amount of land in the state they even have the ability to manage.   The small farms, fence rows, native grass fields, and mixed habitat that covered the state years ago weren’t a result of the DNR management, and the disappearance of this habitat has nothing to do with the DNR either.  Habitat is the #1 factor that determine wildlife populations.  Good habitat, you typically have a high population.  Poor habitat, it is typically low. They have input(control) over season dates and limits.  That’s it.  When a big tract of land is turned to a neighborhood, cow pasture or a strip mall,  or land is cleared to commercial farm, or a mixed forest is clear cut and replanted all in slash pine, the DNR has zero control of that. Zero. They could have eliminated quail season altogether years ago, and we would be in the exact same place due to habitat changes they can’t control.  Same thing for turkeys. If you have 20 people on a 200 acre timber company lease, you will likely have poorer habitat, and less deer, turkey, etc…. than the guy down the road with 1000acres of heavily managed property. The DNR can’t wave a magic wand and make everyone’s hunting equal.  It really isn’t that hard to understand.  I’m not sure why people have such difficulty with it.



You sure act like you know a lot, but when an individual like yourself is a self-proclaimed “intellect” while also not knowing the difference between “their” and “there”, I disregard their opinion. Try again, chief.


----------



## across the river

LongBeard50 said:


> You sure act like you know a lot, but when an individual like yourself is a self-proclaimed “intellect” while also not knowing the difference between “their” and “there”, I disregard their opinion. Try again, chief.




Get worked up why don’t you.  I have fat thumbs and typed that on an iPhone that had auto correct.  I have a lot of grammatical errors on here due to that.  It has no basis on the point, and this isn’t a term paper.  So instead of pointing out grammatical errors, debate.  Provide some facts to refute what I said.  I love how people get mad about facts they don’t like.  If I’m wrong show me I’m wrong.


----------



## LongBeard50

across the river said:


> Get worked up why don’t you.  I have fat thumbs and typed that on an iPhone that had auto correct.  I have a lot of grammatical errors on here due to that.  It has no basis on the point, and this isn’t a term paper.  So instead of pointing out grammatical errors, debate.  Provide some facts to refute what I said.  I love how people get mad about facts they don’t like.  If I’m wrong show me I’m wrong.



For starters, I don’t care about grammar on a hunting board as long as it doesn’t come from some clown that claims to be an intellect and thinks he is educating people. Your grammar is sorely lacking and you are clearly not an intellect as you like to claim. Own it, get educated, and don’t blame it on fat fingers. 

Secondly, nothing you stated was factually incorrect but it is common knowledge and you added absolutely nothing to the conversation.  However, you conveniently avoided addressing the DNR and what they actually do have under their control. Since you clearly have a vested interest in protecting the DNR and trying to dissuade negative opinions of them, why don’t you educate us on why nearly all of the lands they do have under their control are poorly managed and are experiencing drastic declines?


----------



## across the river

LongBeard50 said:


> For starters, I don’t care about grammar on a hunting board as long as it doesn’t come from some clown that claims to be an intellect and thinks he is educating people. Your grammar is sorely lacking and you are clearly not an intellect as you like to claim. Own it, get educated, and don’t blame it on fat fingers.
> 
> Secondly, nothing you stated was factually incorrect but it is common knowledge and you added absolutely nothing to the conversation.  However, you conveniently avoided addressing the DNR and what they actually do have under their control. Since you clearly have a vested interest in protecting the DNR and trying to dissuade negative opinions of them, why don’t you educate us on why nearly all of the lands they do have under their control are poorly managed and are experiencing drastic declines?



I took one English class in college, so I’m not claiming to be a English major or taking time to proofread a internet posts if I was.  I typed this on the computer, so I hope it is better for you. 

So let’s take an honest look at it.  Overall, demand is too high.  Do you agree?  That seems to be the consensus. There are two options to lower demand.  The market based one is to raise the cost of hunting a WMA to a point that people aren’t willing to pay that much to hunt public and demand drops.  The other means is to artificially reduce demand, by setting quotas, check in limits, site harvest limits, etc…..  Either way, you then get a ton of blowback from people who have hunted that land for years and now can’t, at least not legally.  There really are no other options for them.   People throw out the habitat thing, but it doesn’t matter how many food plots they plant if someone is sitting on everyone of them each day.  I have a place by a heavily hunted WMA that gets covered up in deer during hunting season.  It isn’t because the habitat is that much better, it’s just no one messes with them 95% of the time there, and someone messes with them everyday on the WMA.   You can hunt in the morning and often see double digits heading in from spending all night on the WMA eating.   

I have no affiliation with DNR at all, I just honestly don’t know what it is people like you want them to do.   Nothing exists in a vacuum, so anything you do that helps one person, ultimately hurts someone else, at least in terms of their expectations.


----------



## Sixes

Quota only on every WMA may be the simple solution


----------



## Whit90

The bottom line is we don't want our DNR paying a folks to promote GA turkey hunting on their YouTube channel, which has 381,xxx subscribers and 93,847,978 total view.

I am pretty sure that we can all agree that the outcome of promoting GA turkey hunting in this fashion, would not be beneficial to the current GA turkey populations.


----------



## antharper

What was we talking about ? Anyone remember  ?


----------



## cowhornedspike

across the river said:


> I took one English class in college, so I’m not claiming to be a English major or taking time to proofread a internet posts if I was.  I typed this on the computer, so I hope it is better for you.
> 
> So let’s take an honest look at it.  Overall, demand is too high.  Do you agree?  That seems to be the consensus. There are two options to lower demand.  The market based one is to raise the cost of hunting a WMA to a point that people aren’t willing to pay that much to hunt public and demand drops.  The other means is to artificially reduce demand, by setting quotas, check in limits, site harvest limits, etc…..  Either way, you then get a ton of blowback from people who have hunted that land for years and now can’t, at least not legally.  There really are no other options for them.   People throw out the habitat thing, but it doesn’t matter how many food plots they plant if someone is sitting on everyone of them each day.  I have a place by a heavily hunted WMA that gets covered up in deer during hunting season.  It isn’t because the habitat is that much better, it’s just no one messes with them 95% of the time there, and someone messes with them everyday on the WMA.   You can hunt in the morning and often see double digits heading in from spending all night on the WMA eating.
> 
> I have no affiliation with DNR at all, I just honestly don’t know what it is people like you want them to do.   Nothing exists in a vacuum, so anything you do that helps one person, ultimately hurts someone else, at least in terms of their expectations.



While I don't disagree with a lot of what you normally say, I almost always disagree with your presentation...except this time...well presented, polite, and didn't act like a know-it-all so much this time.  Thanks.

As far as what can be done; unfortunately the decision was made to go the route that hurt the resident hunters rather than go the route that put more of the loss on the NR hunters.   

Other states don't treat R and NR the same or even close to the same and it's about time we quit treating them equally as well.  I'm not just talking about asking them to pay a MUCH higher price although that is one thing I want.  I'm also saying we should severely limit their access to our public land.  

I understand we may need to limit the R access as well to some degree and I would be in favor of quota on all or nearly all WMA hunts as was mentioned by Sixes above, but NR should NOT be treated equally in quota draws.

And there is NO excuse for paying THP to promote our public land to bring in MORE NR hunters.


----------



## Whit90

Y’all send an email??


----------



## Resica

What's THP?


----------



## Unicoidawg

Resica said:


> What's THP?



Google is your friend......

The Hunting Public – The Woodsguys Inc.


----------



## Fieldglass

This is crazy. What were they being paid? 

Would love to know the amount on the check cut to them so I can translate it into how many acres of unplanted food plots it would cover on my once favorite yet now overrun with out of state turkey hunters wma.

Do you think they get a direct deposit from the state or a paper check?


----------



## TenPtr

KentuckyHeadhunter said:


> THP and Owens are definitely damaging turkey hunting on public lands for personal gain and notoriety.  I get tired of people saying how these guys are not only great turkey hunters but great woodsman.  I have yet to see any woodsmanship from any of these jokers.  Sleeping in a walmart parking lot in your truck and having all the latest gear and gadgets is what is being taught instead.
> There are 2 types of hunters and I shouldn't have to explain what that means.



There is nothing worse for turkeys and turkey hunters than what these guys have done with their Youtube garbage.  THP has some really cool hunts (deer and turkey) but the negative impacts of this stuff is just mind boggling.  They have created a generation of turkey hunters that are very similar to the teeny bopper girls that worshipped NSYNC and Backstreet Boys.  When I see a truck with a THP or Pinhoti sticker on it, I know for a fact that Im either looking at a guy that owns a popup blind, gobbler decoys, a Dave Owens calling competition DVD, a Benelli Super Black Eagle 3 turkey gun,  or has spent at least 10x more $ on turkey gear that month than I have spent in my entire 25 year turkey killing career combined.....  I also feel confident that Im looking at a guy who likely has 1 or 2 jakes under his belt and zero gobblers..... but could probably talk your ear off about what he knows from watching Dave and the boys..   The moment a guy slaps a THP or Pinhoti Project decal on his vehicle, hes basically saying he voted for Hillary


----------



## Resica

Unicoidawg said:


> Google is your friend......
> 
> The Hunting Public – The Woodsguys Inc.


Roger. Thanks.


----------



## XIronheadX

I can't do the overpopulated maggot hunting for less than $100. Hopefully THP and them will tie butterballs to trees this year, instead of leaving signed deer antlers. Or the DNR will start releasing pen raised turkeys and the wild assassins can chase them through the woods.


----------



## C.Killmaster

I've seen a lot of mention of food plots not getting planted, so I wanted to shed a little light on the matter.  The main reasons a food plot may not get planted would be either it was converted to early successional habitat or there was insufficient staff time to plant everything.  WRD is financially in good shape because 3/4ths of the revenue comes from excise taxes on firearms an ammunition and just think about what those sales have looked like the past couple of years.  The problem is we have no more staff even with good revenue because positions have to be granted by the legislature.  There are also a lot of increased demand on the time of technicians.  A couple of years ago we quadrupled our CWD sampling effort, they have to respond to natural disasters like hurricane and tornado damage, they are planting significantly more dove fields due to increased demand, prescribed fire work has increased substantially, and we have increased the amount of state-owned land by over 100,000 acres in the last 10 to 15 years.


----------



## Long Cut

C.Killmaster said:


> I've seen a lot of mention of food plots not getting planted, so I wanted to shed a little light on the matter.  The main reasons a food plot may not get planted would be either it was converted to early successional habitat or there was insufficient staff time to plant everything.  WRD is financially in good shape because 3/4ths of the revenue comes from excise taxes on firearms an ammunition and just think about what those sales have looked like the past couple of years.  The problem is we have no more staff even with good revenue because positions have to be granted by the legislature.  There are also a lot of increased demand on the time of technicians.  A couple of years ago we quadrupled our CWD sampling effort, they have to respond to natural disasters like hurricane and tornado damage, they are planting significantly more dove fields due to increased demand, prescribed fire work has increased substantially, and we have increased the amount of state-owned land by over 100,000 acres in the last 10 to 15 years.



Semi off topic, but I’m surprised some places like Joe Kurz have something like 240 acres of Dove Fields, which realistically only get hunted the first 2-3 Saturday’s in September. Once the sunflowers and sorghum dry up, those fields lie bare dirt until probably March. 

Don’t get me wrong Dove hunting is a blast and a ton of folks go for opening day, but just seems like a ton of man hours/money go into managing fields for 2-3 hunts.


----------



## C.Killmaster

Long Cut said:


> Semi off topic, but I’m surprised some places like Joe Kurz have something like 240 acres of Dove Fields, which realistically only get hunted the first 2-3 Saturday’s in September. Once the sunflowers and sorghum dry up, those fields lie bare dirt until probably March.
> 
> Don’t get me wrong Dove hunting is a blast and a ton of folks go for opening day, but just seems like a ton of man hours/money go into managing fields for 2-3 hunts.



I don't disagree with that myself.


----------



## Dustin Pate

Long Cut said:


> Semi off topic, but I’m surprised some places like Joe Kurz have something like 240 acres of Dove Fields, which realistically only get hunted the first 2-3 Saturday’s in September. Once the sunflowers and sorghum dry up, those fields lie bare dirt until probably March.
> 
> Don’t get me wrong Dove hunting is a blast and a ton of folks go for opening day, but just seems like a ton of man hours/money go into managing fields for 2-3 hunts.



Those are the most popular fields in the state and the reason they continue to expand them. They attract over 500 people a shoot usually.


----------



## Hoosier06

You GA boys buying hard cards bought the THP crews some real nice F150s. I’m sure they cashed the checks with a smile and wrote off the GA NR license fees as a tax deduction as well as the depreciation on those vehicles you paid for.


----------



## Long Cut

Dustin Pate said:


> Those are the most popular fields in the state and the reason they continue to expand them. They attract over 500 people a shoot usually.



I’m not denying that, but the State is turning a decent percentage a Kurz into a Dove only managed WMA. There’s other hunters and animal species to manage for as well. 

The WRD spends so much time managing that place for Dove but the duck ponds are never planted and overgrown with trees. 
They’ve never planted a food plot for deer,turkey... no clover, oats, rye, brassica.... seed that’s generally cheaper than Sunflowers. 

You mean to tell me that a place for Quota turkey and deer hunts requiring 2-4 points to get drawn, they can’t plant a small clover or brassica plot somewhere?


----------



## Dustin Pate

Long Cut said:


> I’m not denying that, but the State is turning a decent percentage a Kurz into a Dove only managed WMA. There’s other hunters and animal species to manage for as well.
> 
> The WRD spends so much time managing that place for Dove but the duck ponds are never planted and overgrown with trees.
> They’ve never planted a food plot for deer,turkey... no clover, oats, rye, brassica.... seed that’s generally cheaper than Sunflowers.
> 
> You mean to tell me that a place for Quota turkey and deer hunts requiring 2-4 points to get drawn, they can’t plant a small clover or brassica plot somewhere?




I don't disagree that other food plots would be nice. I'm very familiar with the WMA and I can't say the deer population is any worse than it has been in the last 15 years. I'd place in the above average category as far as deer hunting. 

The fact is hunters are asking for more dove opportunities and Kurz has the space for them. The return on investment is there for the fields or they wouldn't continue to plant them.


----------



## C.Killmaster

Long Cut said:


> You mean to tell me that a place for Quota turkey and deer hunts requiring 2-4 points to get drawn, they can’t plant a small clover or brassica plot somewhere?



For what purpose, to hunt over?  I can assure you there is more than enough nutrition on Joe Kurz with the amount of early succession.  It takes so many points to get drawn because it's a small WMA and it's close to Atlanta.  Wildlife openings managed for native plant communities provide as much nutrition as most food plots acre for acre, but they have more benefits than food plots by providing cover.


----------



## Long Cut

C.Killmaster said:


> For what purpose, to hunt over?  I can assure you there is more than enough nutrition on Joe Kurz with the amount of early succession.  It takes so many points to get drawn because it's a small WMA and it's close to Atlanta.  Wildlife openings managed for native plant communities provide as much nutrition as most food plots acre for acre, but they have more benefits than food plots by providing cover.



I’m just curious why the amount of plots planted for Dove compared to deer/turkey is so unproportional. At least if WRD could plant a couple strips in some of the Dove fields in clover or rye in October that would be much appreciated. The place hunts well, could only imagine if the forage volume was increased.. particularly during late season when it’s needed most. Or for the Quota rifle hunts. 
I understand the power of successional growth, I follow Dr Craig Harper and Dr Woods closely. I also understand that when it’s January, I see more deer in brassica or winter rye plots than eating twigs when there’s no more successional growth. 

I won’t continue to derail this thread anymore. It was a great conversation Mr Killmaster and Mr Pate.


----------



## C.Killmaster

Long Cut said:


> I’m just curious why the amount of plots planted for Dove compared to deer/turkey is so unproportional. At least if WRD could plant a couple strips in some of the Dove fields in clover or rye in October that would be much appreciated. The place hunts well, could only imagine if the forage volume was increased.. particularly during late season when it’s needed most. Or for the Quota rifle hunts.
> I understand the power of successional growth, I follow Dr Craig Harper and Dr Woods closely. I also understand that when it’s January, I see more deer in brassica or winter rye plots than eating twigs when there’s no more successional growth.
> 
> I won’t continue to derail this thread anymore. It was a great conversation Mr Killmaster and Mr Pate.



If your reasoning was to have late season spots to hunt then that's a valid point.  So many people don't understand the value of native habitat management and believe a given WMA isn't being managed if there aren't tons of food plots everywhere.


----------



## Dupree

C.Killmaster said:


> For what purpose, to hunt over?  I can assure you there is more than enough nutrition on Joe Kurz with the amount of early succession.  It takes so many points to get drawn because it's a small WMA and it's close to Atlanta.  Wildlife openings managed for native plant communities provide as much nutrition as most food plots acre for acre, but they have more benefits than food plots by providing cover.


Typically end up with benefits to many non game species as well (song birds, pollinators)


----------



## ddd-shooter

across the river said:


> Whit situation?  So you want the DNR, facing declining revenue and rising costs, to stop recruiting trying to recruit new hunters because the WMA is already too crowded in* your* opinion.
> Trying to grasp the "concept" of which you speak.


killmaster said the wrd has plenty of revenue... Post 126
So....


----------



## across the river

ddd-shooter said:


> killmaster said the wrd has plenty of revenue... Post 126
> So....



You have never run a business have you?


----------



## ddd-shooter

across the river said:


> You have never run a business have you?


Lol.


----------



## Long Cut

C.Killmaster said:


> If your reasoning was to have late season spots to hunt then that's a valid point.  So many people don't understand the value of native habitat management and believe a given WMA isn't being managed if there aren't tons of food plots everywhere.



Moreso late season/early spring to provide hunting opportunities but more importantly provide high nutrition when the animals need it most. 

I do agree TSI/Fire/Native regen is the best bang for your buck management objective for deer and turkey. Adding in a couple clover, brassica and cereal grains would help sweeten the deal for 365 days of the year and provide food for deer and turkeys. Cereal grains left to grow up 3-5’ tall also provide excellent fawning cover and turkeys eat the seed heads.


----------



## buckpasser

C.Killmaster said:


> I've seen a lot of mention of food plots not getting planted, so I wanted to shed a little light on the matter.  The main reasons a food plot may not get planted would be either it was converted to early successional habitat or there was insufficient staff time to plant everything.  WRD is financially in good shape because 3/4ths of the revenue comes from excise taxes on firearms an ammunition and just think about what those sales have looked like the past couple of years.  The problem is we have no more staff even with good revenue because positions have to be granted by the legislature.  There are also a lot of increased demand on the time of technicians.  A couple of years ago we quadrupled our CWD sampling effort, they have to respond to natural disasters like hurricane and tornado damage, they are planting significantly more dove fields due to
> increased demand, prescribed fire work has increased substantially, and we have increased the amount of state-owned land by over 100,000 acres in the last 10 to 15 years.



Someone needs to either let DNR absorb GFC or at least partner with them on WMA work.  They could be used to do almost all you mentioned there and are currently just holding down office chairs...


----------



## XIronheadX

buckpasser said:


> Someone needs to either let DNR absorb GFC or at least partner with them on WMA work.  They could be used to do almost all you mentioned there and are currently just holding down office chairs...


Some are out west putting out fires. They'll come plow up our plots for less than what I'd tear up pretty soon.


----------



## buckpasser

XIronheadX said:


> Some are out west putting out fires. They'll come plow up our plots for less than what I'd tear up pretty soon.



They aren’t worthless, I’m not saying that, just that they have like 96% free time on average.


----------



## XIronheadX

buckpasser said:


> They aren’t worthless, I’m not saying that, just that they have like 96% free time on average.


Lol. I really have no idea. I saw a couple that worked hard and moved up. Then I've seen it take 3 to operate a dozer.


----------



## turkeykirk

Sure ain’t gonna invite the THP to hunt with me on my “secret” WMA spot.


----------



## buckpasser

XIronheadX said:


> Lol. I really have no idea. I saw a couple that worked hard and moved up. Then I've seen it take 3 to operate a dozer.



Yeah, some county units are great and actually strive to up their revenue through more plow hours and burning. Some turn in twenty year old crawlers with 450 hours.


----------



## bany

Sixes said:


> But, but ,but,  I am always hearing "if we do not grow the sport and get new hunters involved, we will lose it for everyone"
> 
> I've always been on the other side of the fence. Stop promoting it and trying to get non hunters to become hunters and Georgia hunting will be a lot greater for those of us that hunt because that is what we love to do and care nothing about getting out picture on social media.
> 
> I take pictures of everything that I kill, but rarely am I in the picture. It's not about me, it's about the game.


And now the feds are shutting down most of the food plots or wildlife openings that we all could take our children and grandchildren to. Which is what will enforce the future of our lifestyle. 
Social media is much like a disease and has become its own disturbing way of life.


----------



## NCHillbilly

elfiii said:


> I completely understand WRD's logic, misplaced as it is. Their goal is new hunter recruitment to replace those of us who are too old or decided to give it up and our numbers are definitely dropping.
> 
> New hunter recruitment is rightfully the responsibility of "old" hunters. Part of the solution is us doing our job and taking a kid or a young adult hunting and opening up our world to them so the government doesn't feel compelled to do it for us.
> 
> I agree this is a bad allocation of a scarce resource (money) and I also believe there isn't much the government does that the private sector couldn't do better (WRD excepted) but if we're not willing to sacrifice an opportunity or two to kill a deer or a turkey so that a young or new hunter can experience the thrill and hopefully follow in our footsteps then we have nobody to blame for this other than ourselves and our beloved traditions will die.
> 
> The same ethic applies to us and how many turkeys we each kill. "Limit your kill, don't kill your limit." In the Deer hunting forum you'll see lots of people saying "I need 3 deer a year to feed my family". No, you don't need any deer a year to feed your family. Same goes for turkeys. None of us are subsistence hunters. We do it because it's fun, plain and simple.
> 
> This ain't about us. It's about the future of our tradition and the resource. If we don't put those first then we're goners for sure. Buying a license is the first step in doing your part. Being selective in what you kill is the next step. Our bigger responsibility is passing it on to a newbie. Take one hunting or fishing today so the government doesn't have to do it for us.


There aren't many things I disagree with you about, but this is one of them. There is no shortage of hunters, by a long shot. The world is overrun with them. Public lands are covered with hunters, and every piece of huntable private land in the southeast has somebody hunting it. I'd hate to see it if there were more hunters. You can't find a place to hunt, it's all already claimed by somebody.


----------



## XIronheadX

All the problems lie in public overuse and private misuse, and their complaints. That has to change, but it probably won't until its too late.
I imagine the bushhog will drive by a camera here in a few. More time, effort, and money spent on places more organized. I've already watched enough deer, fawns, poults, jakes, and turkeys this morning. Just the same as I have for over 30 years. Mother Nature doesn't owe anyone a darn thing.


----------



## elfiii

NCHillbilly said:


> There aren't many things I disagree with you about, but this is one of them. There is no shortage of hunters, by a long shot. The world is overrun with them. Public lands are covered with hunters, and every piece of huntable private land in the southeast has somebody hunting it. I'd hate to see it if there were more hunters. You can't find a place to hunt, it's all already claimed by somebody.



As was pointed out previously most of us are Boomers. When we give it up due to age and incapacity there will be plenty of room on public lands. Provided the state can afford to hang on to them and keep them up because we won't be buying licenses or ammo anymore.


----------



## NCHillbilly

elfiii said:


> As was pointed out previously most of us are Boomers. When we give it up due to age and incapacity there will be plenty of room on public lands. Provided the state can afford to hang on to them and keep them up because we won't be buying licenses or ammo anymore.


Most of the people I see hunting aren't boomers.


----------



## buckpasser

I’ve heard THP say on their podcasts that they are normally among the youngest of hunters that they witness on public lands. Especially in the Midwest.


----------



## Resica

NCHillbilly said:


> There aren't many things I disagree with you about, but this is one of them. There is no shortage of hunters, by a long shot. The world is overrun with them. Public lands are covered with hunters, and every piece of huntable private land in the southeast has somebody hunting it. I'd hate to see it if there were more hunters. You can't find a place to hunt, it's all already claimed by somebody.


Hunter numbers have been dropping nationwide for many years.


----------



## willie1971

I find it harder than ever to find hunting land in my 30 year of hunting.  Lease prices continue to go up and more and more big box hunting stores are opening.   I realize the small tackle shops and sporting goods stores are about gone, and the internet has helped that happen.  Covid has more people outdoors more than ever and harvests are up seemingly everywhere.  And poaching is at a all time high in my neck of the woods.  I don't see that changing anytime soon.


----------



## Dupree

NCHillbilly said:


> Most of the people I see hunting aren't boomers.


The majority of people I see on public land likely took pictures of there first deer or turkey with a cell phone......


----------



## NCHillbilly

Resica said:


> Hunter numbers have been dropping nationwide for many years.


Where? Every single place you go is absolutely covered with hunters. Private, public, it's ALL being hunted heavily. Maybe PA is different, but the world is crawling thick with hunters down here. I defy you to find a huntable place that doesn't have someone hunting it. Go on public and try to avoid other people. There are millions of folks out there hunting. I do not believe the lower numbers of hunters at all, because I see twice as many hunters now as I ever have in over half a century.


----------



## Resica

NCHillbilly said:


> Where? Every single place you go is absolutely covered with hunters. Private, public, it's ALL being hunted heavily. Maybe PA is different, but the world is crawling thick with hunters down here. I defy you to find a huntable place that doesn't have someone hunting it. Go on public and try to avoid other people. There are millions of folks out there hunting. I do not believe the lower numbers of hunters at all, because I see twice as many hunters now as I ever have in over half a century.


Give me some time, I'll look it up Steve.


----------



## kmckinnie

NCHillbilly said:


> Where? Every single place you go is absolutely covered with hunters. Private, public, it's ALL being hunted heavily. Maybe PA is different, but the world is crawling thick with hunters down here. I defy you to find a huntable place that doesn't have someone hunting it. Go on public and try to avoid other people. There are millions of folks out there hunting. I do not believe the lower numbers of hunters at all, because I see twice as many hunters now as I ever have in over half a century.


There maybe twice the hunters but the population of folks maybe 4 times higher. So the average hunting number is lower to the population maybe ? 
IDK ?‍


----------



## NCHillbilly

kmckinnie said:


> There maybe twice the hunters but the population of folks maybe 4 times higher. So the average hunting number is lower to the population maybe ?
> IDK ?‍


I think that's it. There may be a lower percentage of hunters in the genpop, but the numbers are high or higher than they have ever been. The huntable world is covered knee-deep in hunters, regardless of what some agency says.


----------



## NCHillbilly

Resica said:


> Give me some time, I'll look it up Steve.


Just go out and look. Try to find a place to hunt that isn't being hunted. Hit the national forest. Try to get a lease or private land permission. You don't have to look it up. The world is covered with hunters. You got ten people hunting leases on 200 acres or less down here. And every 200 acres is leased or tied up.


----------



## Resica

In 1970 there were 40 million licensed hunters in the U.S. In 2020 there were 12.6 million. That seems to be quite a decline. Don't know specifics about North Carolina but it's reasonable to assume they are in the same boat as everyone else. I know we've witnessed a big decline here. Used to have over a million deer hunters, now it's less than 700,000.


----------



## kmckinnie

Maybe that’s why corn sales are up around here. Less hunters. Every lease here is full and this is timber country. 30 years ago there was not this kind of hunting going on. 50 ty years ago there was no deer to hunt.


----------



## NCHillbilly

Resica said:


> In 1970 there were 40 million licensed hunters in the U.S. In 2020 there were 12.6 million. That seems to be quite a decline. Don't know specifics about North Carolina but it's reasonable to assume they are in the same boat as everyone else. I know we've witnessed a big decline here. Used to have over a million deer hunters, now it's less than 700,000.


Then why is it that I see many, many more hunters than I did in 1970? In the 70s I could hunt anywhere. For free. And not be overrun by other people. Now, Every single acre of land has a hunter on it. Somebody is cooking the books. 12.6 million hunters in the US? Bull. Crap.


----------



## Resica

I certainly could be incorrect about North Carolina.


----------



## kmckinnie

340 million folks in the us and only 12 million hunt. ?


----------



## kmckinnie

They must be all here in SWGA.


----------



## Unicoidawg

NCHillbilly said:


> Where? Every single place you go is absolutely covered with hunters. Private, public, it's ALL being hunted heavily. Maybe PA is different, but the world is crawling thick with hunters down here. I defy you to find a huntable place that doesn't have someone hunting it. Go on public and try to avoid other people. There are millions of folks out there hunting. I do not believe the lower numbers of hunters at all, because I see twice as many hunters now as I ever have in over half a century.



This^^^^^ I've been hunting now for over 30yrs and now there are more hunters around here than I've ever seen. Not even close. As stated by multiple people there are people all over the place. Any huntable acreage has someone already hunting it or it's leased up. Wanna see a mad scramble? Go over to the Leases section and see a lease anywhere in Northeast Georgia posted and watch how fast the replies fly. It's like a pack of wolves on a T bone. It'll get to a point to where the hassle and expense won't be worth it. I always hear the we need more hunters thing and have always thought, are you crazy??


----------



## antharper

I’ve been in the woods for over 30 years and I can guarantee I see more hunters now than ever before . Especially turkey hunters !


----------



## Duff

Way more hunters now. Not even close. I can’t even believe this is a debate


----------



## XIronheadX

Sounds like a lot of hunters failed at getting a license.


----------



## ddd-shooter

Resica said:


> In 1970 there were 40 million licensed hunters in the U.S. In 2020 there were 12.6 million. That seems to be quite a decline. Don't know specifics about North Carolina but it's reasonable to assume they are in the same boat as everyone else. I know we've witnessed a big decline here. Used to have over a million deer hunters, now it's less than 700,000.


Where did you get those stats? 
Fws shows a much different picture. 15,000,000 in 2021. You have to go back to 1984 to get to 16,000,000. 
LESS than that in 1964. But, peaking in the 80s Almost 17,000,000.

So, pretty much flat across time. Now think about how small Atlanta was 40 years ago. How many subdivisions have been built in just the last 20 years….Same people, less land.
THATS THE BIGGEST PROBLEM!

Fish and wildlife gives out PR money and such, so they have to know licensed hunters and it does no good to report fewer numbers.

https://www.fws.gov/wsfrprograms/subpages/licenseinfo/hunting.htm


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## Dupree

Here are some real numbers from usfws website for Georgia. 1971, 2004, 2020. Tell me again how we have less hunters?!?!?! Non resident license holders have doubled between 2004 and 2020, and over 400k more total licenses  glad I just looked this up. It verified what I have personally seen


----------



## Dupree

@Resica in 2020 there were 2.6 million license holder in PA, 2.4 million in 2000, 2 million in 1980.


----------



## jrmcc

So the non residents get the blame for the turkeys disappearing? What about the 1 million additional resident license's that increased from the 70's till now? I think the issue is far greater than a YouTube channel that's been around for a year or two. 

Increase hunter participation by a million, then develop your farmland or lease everything. More people competing for less land is going to result in more hunter encounters. It may not be as easy as it used to be, but people still manage to kill deer and turkey every year. You get out of it what you put in. It would be interesting to see what percentage was successful in 1970 vs 2020.


----------



## XIronheadX

jrmcc said:


> It may not be as easy as it used to be, but people still manage to kill deer and turkey every year. You get out of it what you put in. It would be interesting to see what percentage was successful in 1970 vs 2020.



Pretty sure thats not going to make turkeys or deer reappear though. Managing the land to its carrying capacity may help.


----------



## Dupree

jrmcc said:


> So the non residents get the blame for the turkeys disappearing? What about the 1 million additional resident license's that increased from the 70's till now? I think the issue is far greater than a YouTube channel that's been around for a year or two.
> 
> Increase hunter participation by a million, then develop your farmland or lease everything. More people competing for less land is going to result in more hunter encounters. It may not be as easy as it used to be, but people still manage to kill deer and turkey every year. You get out of it what you put in. It would be interesting to see what percentage was successful in 1970 vs 2020.


you are correct that issues are greater than a YouTube channel, but at the same time why would our Dnr be paying them to promote our state when there isn’t a shortage of licensed hunters. They say it’s for hunter recruitment, but the numbers show we have been getting more hunters yearly without them showcasing our state with funds provided by hunters. 

I have no problem finding and killing deer and turkeys, but in recent years I have joined private leases to lessen the headache of hunter interference. It doesn’t matter if you walk 2-3 miles in to turkey hunt around here, you are gonna have multiple other people listening to the same birds gobbling that you are. Also, as many access points as there are on most public land now, you can only go so far before you are just as close to another access point coming from the other side.


----------



## Fieldglass

Resica said:


> In 1970 there were 40 million licensed hunters in the U.S. In 2020 there were 12.6 million. That seems to be quite a decline. Don't know specifics about North Carolina but it's reasonable to assume they are in the same boat as everyone else. I know we've witnessed a big decline here. Used to have over a million deer hunters, now it's less than 700,000.



Where did you get these numbers from? Source? I'm shocked if those are valid stats and I'd love to see the source. Not trying to come off brash or challenging to you, its truly a sincere ask as I'm in disbelief at those figures...perhaps the #s are inverted?


----------



## XIronheadX

Fieldglass said:


> Where did you get these numbers from? Source? I'm shocked if those are valid stats and I'd love to see the source. Not trying to come off brash or challenging to you, its truly a sincere ask as I'm in disbelief at those figures...perhaps the #s are inverted?


https://www.fws.gov/wsfrprograms/subpages/licenseinfo/HuntingLicCertHistory.pdf


----------



## bowhunterdavid

I grew up next to Dawson Forrest, Back in the 1980's and 90's i could roam the woods anywhere and might see a few locals here and there. I won't even hunt there anymore, and if a Turkey Gobbles i feel sorry for it because 10 are more people go after it.


----------



## Resica

Fieldglass said:


> Where did you get these numbers from? Source? I'm shocked if those are valid stats and I'd love to see the source. Not trying to come off brash or challenging to you, its truly a sincere ask as I'm in disbelief at those figures...perhaps the #s are inverted?


I googled it. Can't specifically tell you what the site name was.


----------



## Resica

Dupree said:


> @Resica in 2020 there were 2.6 million license holder in PA, 2.4 million in 2000, 2 million in 1980.


Ok. Find it hard to believe, but if you say so. That's alot for sure. We're  a hunting state for schnizzle!!


----------



## Resica

Dupree said:


> @Resica in 2020 there were 2.6 million license holder in PA, 2.4 million in 2000, 2 million in 1980.


Hunting license sales from 2010 -2020 from The Pennsylvania Game Commission.
https://www.pgc.pa.gov/HuntTrap/LicensesandPermits/Pages/HuntingLicenseSalesReport.aspx


----------



## Dupree

Resica said:


> Hunting license sales from 2010 -2020 from The Pennsylvania Game Commission.
> https://www.pgc.pa.gov/HuntTrap/LicensesandPermits/Pages/HuntingLicenseSalesReport.aspx


Those numbers are way off from what the usfws.gov website says. Someone doesn’t have factual information ??‍


----------



## Dupree

Resica said:


> Hunting license sales from 2010 -2020 from The Pennsylvania Game Commission.
> https://www.pgc.pa.gov/HuntTrap/LicensesandPermits/Pages/HuntingLicenseSalesReport.aspx


https://www.fws.gov/wsfrprograms/Subpages/LicenseInfo/Natl Hunting License Report 2020.pdf
2020 license reports. Every state on this chart.


----------



## Resica

Dupree said:


> Those numbers are way off from what the usfws.gov website says. Someone doesn’t have factual information ??‍


I trust the PGC. It's their hunting licenses, not the usfws.


----------



## Resica

I didn't look at the USFWS stuff yet, but I will. In order to hunt anything in Pa., except furbearers, you need a general hunting license. That license allows you to take a buck with a gun, 1 spring and 1 fall turkey also squirrels, rabbits and grouse. Dove hunting, snipe, Rail, woodcock etc. would require a migratory bird stamp, waterfowl hunting would require an additional duck stamp. Archery license required to hunt with a bow unless your using a bow in rifle season. Bear license required to hunt bear. I think if you have a hunting license or furtakers license you can hunt the furbearers that you are allowed to shoot. Trappers are required a furbearers license to trap and they appear to have gone up. Doe licenses are sold separately now adays. A 2nd spring turkey tag needs to be purchased if you want to shoot a 2nd gob. We now have to buy a pheasant stamp to hunt them, more pheasants stocked since the stamp came into play. I'm sure I missed stuff. I think if you add up all licenses, permits, etc. your not getting close to 2 million.


----------



## Resica

https://www.pgc.pa.gov/Wildlife/WildlifeSpecies/White-tailedDeer/Pages/FewerDeerFewerHunters.aspx


----------



## ddd-shooter

Resica said:


> Hunting license sales from 2010 -2020 from The Pennsylvania Game Commission.
> https://www.pgc.pa.gov/HuntTrap/LicensesandPermits/Pages/HuntingLicenseSalesReport.aspx



Even in this link, licenses are mostly flat Across the last ten years


----------



## daviderickson

What an interesting situation. I don’t post much, but my marketing background gives me a unique perspective. I think the function of marketing / advertising is very much in question here. Is everyone mad that the DNR is trying to promote license sales, hunting awareness, etc.? I’ve always found it a positive to shed light on hunting and invite more people to enjoy the great outdoors. Most state funded programs take advantage of marketing. Whether it be seatbelt awareness, anti-drunk driving, etc. Almost all local tourism offices advertise and market. This is all government / taxpayer funded. Heck the DNR performs other marketing related to safe boating, etc. using many forms of media. In this instance, it seems the government (DNR marketing) decided that The Hunting Public offered a strong value proposition to support their efforts. Let’s remember, it’s 2021, social media and influencers in particular provide much more targeted and measurable results than a newspaper ad, roadside billboard or radio ad. Obviously someone at the state level made this decision over other marketing and advertising options. I sense that many are just mad that the DNR selected an influencer marketing program with THP, possibly because of past issues with increased hunting pressure, or because they don’t like the show, or perhaps because they are jealous of their success.

However, as a hunter that sees the decline in turkey population firsthand, I also don’t necessarily want more people (especially out of state hunters) adding pressure to “our” precious resource. But are the funds from the additional hunters valuable enough that they outweigh the pressure? I don’t have that answer. Maybe someone from the DNR does. If the DNR spent $X with THP, but license sales went up by twice that number, does the increase in funds help to positively benefit the turkey population through studies, enhanced habitat, etc.?

I don’t posses any answers but I did want to give some perspective as the DNR might end up choosing a less controversial marketing program in the future as I am sure they are aware of this thread. But I don’t think there should be outrage that in 2021, a marketing team chose a social media platform to engage with a young audience. That is just keeping up with the times. Social media has changed almost every facet of this world; hunting, fishing and conservation included.


----------



## Unicoidawg

daviderickson said:


> What an interesting situation. I don’t post much, but my marketing background gives me a unique perspective. I think the function of marketing / advertising is very much in question here. Is everyone mad that the DNR is trying to promote license sales, hunting awareness, etc.? I’ve always found it a positive to shed light on hunting and invite more people to enjoy the great outdoors. Most state funded programs take advantage of marketing. Whether it be seatbelt awareness, anti-drunk driving, etc. Almost all local tourism offices advertise and market. This is all government / taxpayer funded. Heck the DNR performs other marketing related to safe boating, etc. using many forms of media. In this instance, it seems the government (DNR marketing) decided that The Hunting Public offered a strong value proposition to support their efforts. Let’s remember, it’s 2021, social media and influencers in particular provide much more targeted and measurable results than a newspaper ad, roadside billboard or radio ad. Obviously someone at the state level made this decision over other marketing and advertising options. I sense that many are just mad that the DNR selected an influencer marketing program with THP, possibly because of past issues with increased hunting pressure, or because they don’t like the show, or perhaps because they are jealous of their success.
> 
> However, as a hunter that sees the decline in turkey population firsthand, I also don’t necessarily want more people (especially out of state hunters) adding pressure to “our” precious resource. But are the funds from the additional hunters valuable enough that they outweigh the pressure? I don’t have that answer. Maybe someone from the DNR does. If the DNR spent $X with THP, but license sales went up by twice that number, does the increase in funds help to positively benefit the turkey population through studies, enhanced habitat, etc.?
> 
> I don’t posses any answers but I did want to give some perspective as the DNR might end up choosing a less controversial marketing program in the future as I am sure they are aware of this thread. But I don’t think there should be outrage that in 2021, a marketing team chose a social media platform to engage with a young audience. That is just keeping up with the times. Social media has changed almost every facet of this world; hunting, fishing and conservation included.




There again after all that it boils down to this.......... Our DNR cut the season and cut the limit all the while screaming about the decline in population. Then with the other hand paid influencers to try and put more pressure on that resource. That's why people are upset with the whole deal....


----------



## Dustin Pate

Here is the response Cowhorn got from the WRD on how much was given to THP....


----------



## ddd-shooter

daviderickson said:


> What an interesting situation. I don’t post much, but my marketing background gives me a unique perspective. I think the function of marketing / advertising is very much in question here. Is everyone mad that the DNR is trying to promote license sales, hunting awareness, etc.? I’ve always found it a positive to shed light on hunting and invite more people to enjoy the great outdoors. Most state funded programs take advantage of marketing. Whether it be seatbelt awareness, anti-drunk driving, etc. Almost all local tourism offices advertise and market. This is all government / taxpayer funded. Heck the DNR performs other marketing related to safe boating, etc. using many forms of media. In this instance, it seems the government (DNR marketing) decided that The Hunting Public offered a strong value proposition to support their efforts. Let’s remember, it’s 2021, social media and influencers in particular provide much more targeted and measurable results than a newspaper ad, roadside billboard or radio ad. Obviously someone at the state level made this decision over other marketing and advertising options. I sense that many are just mad that the DNR selected an influencer marketing program with THP, possibly because of past issues with increased hunting pressure, or because they don’t like the show, or perhaps because they are jealous of their success.
> 
> However, as a hunter that sees the decline in turkey population firsthand, I also don’t necessarily want more people (especially out of state hunters) adding pressure to “our” precious resource. But are the funds from the additional hunters valuable enough that they outweigh the pressure? I don’t have that answer. Maybe someone from the DNR does. If the DNR spent $X with THP, but license sales went up by twice that number, does the increase in funds help to positively benefit the turkey population through studies, enhanced habitat, etc.?
> 
> I don’t posses any answers but I did want to give some perspective as the DNR might end up choosing a less controversial marketing program in the future as I am sure they are aware of this thread. But I don’t think there should be outrage that in 2021, a marketing team chose a social media platform to engage with a young audience. That is just keeping up with the times. Social media has changed almost every facet of this world; hunting, fishing and conservation included.


Why market to a resource (hunter licenses) that is largely stable across time?


----------



## Whit90

Insane!


----------



## daviderickson

I am not advocating for the way that the state spent the money. From a quick glance, that $23k earned them well over 1.5M views on the videos that THP filmed in Georgia. I am sure they have other metrics they use to gauge the return on investment of their various marketing programs. I hope my tax dollars are used the most efficient way possible for their designated purpose.

Often times with government budgets, they have to use what they are allocated, or they lose it completely. For this purpose (bring awareness to hunting in Georgia), maybe they choose a different way to spend it in the future. Perhaps they don’t spend it on a program that appears to encourage out of state hunters while across the hall at HQ they are shortening the season. Regardless, here we are talking about it, which is worth something.

I too would love to see more resources spent on habitat creation and other land management techniques that benefit turkeys. But there are other struggles the DNR faces such as people to do the work. Also, as someone stated, the marketing program with THP was probably based around hunting in general, not just turkey. Exposure to the great outdoors and the state of Georgia is good for all conservationists, at least in my belief. The THP guys also did an entire episode focused on increasing the wild turkey population, and I don’t think anyone is doubting their true love for the outdoors. 

Does it seem tone deaf to use a marketing program that encourages more hunting pressure, while at the same time knowing our turkey population is declining? Probably. But I doubt the marketing team at the DNR was consulting the group that determines season length and harvest allotments.


----------



## XIronheadX

Some go to the woods making sure there is a resource to hunt the following seasons at great effort and expense. Some just go to kill. The rules somehow are the same for both.


----------



## Dupree

These sum up the situation.


----------



## spencer12

Wow.


----------



## ChickenCharmer

daviderickson said:


> I am not advocating for the way that the state spent the money. From a quick glance, that $23k earned them well over 1.5M views on the videos that THP filmed in Georgia. I am sure they have other metrics they use to gauge the return on investment of their various marketing programs. I hope my tax dollars are used the most efficient way possible for their designated purpose.
> 
> Often times with government budgets, they have to use what they are allocated, or they lose it completely. For this purpose (bring awareness to hunting in Georgia), maybe they choose a different way to spend it in the future. Perhaps they don’t spend it on a program that appears to encourage out of state hunters while across the hall at HQ they are shortening the season. Regardless, here we are talking about it, which is worth something.
> 
> I too would love to see more resources spent on habitat creation and other land management techniques that benefit turkeys. But there are other struggles the DNR faces such as people to do the work. Also, as someone stated, the marketing program with THP was probably based around hunting in general, not just turkey. Exposure to the great outdoors and the state of Georgia is good for all conservationists, at least in my belief. The THP guys also did an entire episode focused on increasing the wild turkey population, and I don’t think anyone is doubting their true love for the outdoors.
> 
> Does it seem tone deaf to use a marketing program that encourages more hunting pressure, while at the same time knowing our turkey population is declining? Probably. But I doubt the marketing team at the DNR was consulting the group that determines season length and harvest allotments.



Well put David, it’s difficult to sort through and add a voice to such a positive forum turned negative, but you managed to filter through it well.

C.Killmaster, it went way off the rails… I’m not going to call anyone out but, promoting out of state hunting began years ago with the maker of your camouflage and game calls and was most likely supported by state agencies, but you didn’t hear about it through your Commodore 64 computer. Directly or indirectly, those VHS made me want to go to Montana and hunt MilkRiver white tails with a primos grunt call in a tree lounge. Are you gonna quit wearing their camo or use calls or deerstands from manufacturers that support you tubers? Or email them your displeasure? Are y’all more responsive and willing to help out when you are encouraged and your ego is stroked or when you are nagged?

Of all the public properties I visit, it’s rare to see out of state rentals or car tags at gates. I wonder how many of the out of staters pay to hunt private lands and not public land? I love to travel and hunt. If I could only get paid to do it?!

Unfortunately, it is all about money, the one resource needed to elevate other resources. $37,856.07… That’s what the THP helped raise to support Dr. Chamberlain and the research efforts that he, and his VOLUNTEER team of Graduate Students, to help understand ALL things Wild Turkey. One of the best 1:22 minutes of my time was watching that episode and it helped me understand more about the research of my favorite time of year in the woods. You have got to put aside your hatred towards a very successful public hunting YouTube channel and watch this episode multiple times. You may hear him mention and understand why they decided to temporarily delay the hunting season to help research this matter of decline.

Yeah, I hate knowing that my hard earned tax dollars go towards a lot of crap but I can only hope that my dollar is going towards this. Another great hour of my time was spent talking to the WRD Technician at several WMAs. David you said it, the DNR WRD said the real struggle with why you see a decline in the food plots on public land is man power. Heck, every market is struggling to find people who actually want to work…

Bottom line, there’s more here to put our energy toward. Let’s try and get the forum back on the rails of that. We aren’t stopping out of state licensing so we might as well continue to support efforts to make what we have better! And hey, no one is stopping you from jumping in your Bronco and going to hunt and fish someone else’s state. It’s actually fun.


----------



## buckpasser

ChickenCharmer said:


> Well put David, it’s difficult to sort through and add a voice to such a positive forum turned negative, but you managed to filter through it well.
> 
> C.Killmaster, it went way off the rails… I’m not going to call anyone out but, promoting out of state hunting began years ago with the maker of your camouflage and game calls and was most likely supported by state agencies, but you didn’t hear about it through your Commodore 64 computer. Directly or indirectly, those VHS made me want to go to Montana and hunt MilkRiver white tails with a primos grunt call in a tree lounge. Are you gonna quit wearing their camo or use calls or deerstands from manufacturers that support you tubers? Or email them your displeasure? Are y’all more responsive and willing to help out when you are encouraged and your ego is stroked or when you are nagged?
> 
> Of all the public properties I visit, it’s rare to see out of state rentals or car tags at gates. I wonder how many of the out of staters pay to hunt private lands and not public land? I love to travel and hunt. If I could only get paid to do it?!
> 
> Unfortunately, it is all about money, the one resource needed to elevate other resources. $37,856.07… That’s what the THP helped raise to support Dr. Chamberlain and the research efforts that he, and his VOLUNTEER team of Graduate Students, to help understand ALL things Wild Turkey. One of the best 1:22 minutes of my time was watching that episode and it helped me understand more about the research of my favorite time of year in the woods. You have got to put aside your hatred towards a very successful public hunting YouTube channel and watch this episode multiple times. You may hear him mention and understand why they decided to temporarily delay the hunting season to help research this matter of decline.
> 
> Yeah, I hate knowing that my hard earned tax dollars go towards a lot of crap but I can only hope that my dollar is going towards this. Another great hour of my time was spent talking to the WRD Technician at several WMAs. David you said it, the DNR WRD said the real struggle with why you see a decline in the food plots on public land is man power. Heck, every market is struggling to find people who actually want to work…
> 
> Bottom line, there’s more here to put our energy toward. Let’s try and get the forum back on the rails of that. We aren’t stopping out of state licensing so we might as well continue to support efforts to make what we have better! And hey, no one is stopping you from jumping in your Bronco and going to hunt and fish someone else’s state. It’s actually fun.



Maybe I’m alone here, but I say Chamberlain is another way to waste some money.


----------



## Gaswamp

ChickenCharmer said:


> Well put David, it’s difficult to sort through and add a voice to such a positive forum turned negative, but you managed to filter through it well.
> 
> C.Killmaster, it went way off the rails… I’m not going to call anyone out but, promoting out of state hunting began years ago with the maker of your camouflage and game calls and was most likely supported by state agencies, but you didn’t hear about it through your Commodore 64 computer. Directly or indirectly, those VHS made me want to go to Montana and hunt MilkRiver white tails with a primos grunt call in a tree lounge. Are you gonna quit wearing their camo or use calls or deerstands from manufacturers that support you tubers? Or email them your displeasure? Are y’all more responsive and willing to help out when you are encouraged and your ego is stroked or when you are nagged?
> 
> Of all the public properties I visit, it’s rare to see out of state rentals or car tags at gates. I wonder how many of the out of staters pay to hunt private lands and not public land? I love to travel and hunt. If I could only get paid to do it?!
> 
> Unfortunately, it is all about money, the one resource needed to elevate other resources. $37,856.07… That’s what the THP helped raise to support Dr. Chamberlain and the research efforts that he, and his VOLUNTEER team of Graduate Students, to help understand ALL things Wild Turkey. One of the best 1:22 minutes of my time was watching that episode and it helped me understand more about the research of my favorite time of year in the woods. You have got to put aside your hatred towards a very successful public hunting YouTube channel and watch this episode multiple times. You may hear him mention and understand why they decided to temporarily delay the hunting season to help research this matter of decline.
> 
> Yeah, I hate knowing that my hard earned tax dollars go towards a lot of crap but I can only hope that my dollar is going towards this. Another great hour of my time was spent talking to the WRD Technician at several WMAs. David you said it, the DNR WRD said the real struggle with why you see a decline in the food plots on public land is man power. Heck, every market is struggling to find people who actually want to work…
> 
> Bottom line, there’s more here to put our energy toward. Let’s try and get the forum back on the rails of that. We aren’t stopping out of state licensing so we might as well continue to support efforts to make what we have better! And hey, no one is stopping you from jumping in your Bronco and going to hunt and fish someone else’s state. It’s actually fun.


Nice first post.  Yet at the heart of this debate is one main issue for Georgia resident hunters.  DNR pays and promotes hunting to out of staters, yet residents lose turkey hunting time and one bird.


----------



## Long Cut

All around this whole situation was very poor timing on our DNR’s part. 
Between shortening our turkey season and bag limits to current political events. Overall trust in our government organizations is very poor right now. 

Had the turkey season not been reduced the same year THP was paid to promote OOS hunting, there would have been significantly less backlash. 

I confidently feel I speak for the majority of us public land hunters here when I say, we all know of several WMA’s that could use some better roads, gates and a whole lot of tractor work. 

IF the DNR had come out and told us, “This paid promotion with THP is to justify hiring “X Number” of Biologists/WRD Techs/Game Wardens” the outcome would have been different. 

To sum it up, we just ask for Honesty when it comes to our tax and license dollars. Having to find out through Facebook and Forums because a couple guys began asking questions, instead of the DNR coming fourth to provide clarity is shady in my book.


----------



## Gut_Pile

buckpasser said:


> Maybe I’m alone here, but I say Chamberlain is another way to waste some money.



Where/what is the waste with research?


----------



## twoheartedale

If you are upset, don't buy a hunting lic. this year, bet if enough people do it they just might get the picture.


----------



## buckpasser

Gut_Pile said:


> Where/what is the waste with research?



Research is great. Paying the turkey doc is what is the waste. He’s a one trick pony pushing hunting pressure timing being a major cause of population decrease.  I’ve also been amused at his low T theory.  DNR did a study to see if an adjusted season might help. When it failed to show an improvement, “the experimental area was too small”. I guess the state bought in to that because the next experimental area is state wide. As I’ve screamed from the rooftops, turkeys are going to come back anyway, ON THEIR OWN.  Toms neither lay or hatch eggs, nor do they assist in raising poults.  No one has proven that even a single willing hen couldn’t find a mate. Turkey doc lacks common sense, yet somehow he leads the way...


----------



## buckpasser

Long Cut said:


> All around this whole situation was very poor timing on our DNR’s part.
> Between shortening our turkey season and bag limits to current political events. Overall trust in our government organizations is very poor right now.
> 
> Had the turkey season not been reduced the same year THP was paid to promote OOS hunting, there would have been significantly less backlash.
> 
> I confidently feel I speak for the majority of us public land hunters here when I say, we all know of several WMA’s that could use some better roads, gates and a whole lot of tractor work.
> 
> IF the DNR had come out and told us, “This paid promotion with THP is to justify hiring “X Number” of Biologists/WRD Techs/Game Wardens” the outcome would have been different.
> 
> To sum it up, we just ask for Honesty when it comes to our tax and license dollars. Having to find out through Facebook and Forums because a couple guys began asking questions, instead of the DNR coming fourth to provide clarity is shady in my book.



“But, but, but, it’s our hard card money. It’s only allotted to waste on advertising...”

Could the allocation maybe just be adjusted???


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## Gut_Pile

buckpasser said:


> Research is great. Paying the turkey doc is what is the waste. He’s a one trick pony pushing hunting pressure timing being a major cause of population decrease.  I’ve also been amused at his low T theory.  DNR did a study to see if an adjusted season might help. When it failed to show an improvement, “the experimental area was too small”. I guess the state bought in to that because the next experimental area is state wide. As I’ve screamed from the rooftops, turkeys are going to come back anyway, ON THEIR OWN.  Toms neither lay or hatch eggs, nor do they assist in raising poults.  No one has proven that even a single willing hen couldn’t find a mate. Turkey doc lacks common sense, yet somehow he leads the way...



We'll just have to agree to disagree.


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## ddd-shooter

buckpasser said:


> “But, but, but, it’s our hard card money. It’s only allotted to waste on advertising...”
> 
> Could the allocation maybe just be adjusted???


Yep. Good habitat and prime wildlife opportunities are their own advertisement.


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## buckpasser

Gut_Pile said:


> We'll just have to agree to disagree.



No hard feelings on my end.


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## Whit90

Did any of you send an email? If so, did you get a response?


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## Fieldglass

Whit90 said:


> Did any of you send an email? If so, did you get a response?



Yea Whit its buried in the thread, here's the skinny - The State of Georgia paid 23k to THP to "promote out of state hunting" while cutting the Georgia turkey hunting season and bag limits down due to (but not limited to, to be fair) increased "hunting pressure".

Some would say this logic is along the same lines as pulling the military out of Afghanistan before evacuating non-combatants.

All in all most folks (myself included) get it as the state's marketing team was doing what it was tasked to do, market the state's wonderful resources and drive revenue. The logic just looks bad and I hope it gets a reassessment


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## Whit90

Fieldglass said:


> Yea Whit its buried in the thread, here's the skinny - The State of Georgia paid 23k to THP to "promote out of state hunting" while cutting the Georgia turkey hunting season and bag limits down due to (but not limited to, to be fair) increased "hunting pressure".
> 
> Some would say this logic is along the same lines as pulling the military out of Afghanistan before evacuating non-combatants.
> 
> All in all most folks (myself included) get it as the state's marketing team was doing what it was tasked to do, market the state's wonderful resources and drive revenue. The logic just looks bad and I hope it gets a reassessment




I am aware of the situation. I provided multiple emails for those who choose to voice their concern about the state marketing our wonderful declining resources. 

The turkey season and bag limits were cut due to the declining populations, which may somewhat have to do with hunting pressure, but IMO other factors are of greater concern. Same for deer in the Northeast (no does can be taken on the Chattahoochee national forest east of I-75). And that for sure is not because of hunting pressure. 

I am curious who, if anyone, sent and email, or if everyone just complained about it on the forum. And if anyone did send an email, I am also curious as to how the recipient replied.


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## cowhornedspike

I sent an email and got an email response which I posted here on the forum.


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## Fieldglass

Whit90 said:


> I am aware of the situation. I provided multiple emails for those who choose to voice their concern about the state marketing our wonderful declining resources.
> 
> The turkey season and bag limits were cut due to the declining populations, which may somewhat have to do with hunting pressure, but IMO other factors are of greater concern. Same for deer in the Northeast (no does can be taken on the Chattahoochee national forest east of I-75). And that for sure is not because of hunting pressure.
> 
> I am curious who, if anyone, sent and email, or if everyone just complained about it on the forum. And if anyone did send an email, I am also curious as to how the recipient replied.



Yep...the responses (screenshots and all provided by the email recipients) are buried in the thread as noted, cowhornedspike and dupree to name two users in particular that come to mind. Has the email contacts for the state and all included as Charlie Killmaster provided them as well. I also cited it wasn't limited to hunting pressure as I too believe there are greater issues at hand.


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## Timber1

I have no idea who these guys are but if they are hunting public land out of state and being successful enough to put out videos more power to them. They are putting in the time it takes to be successful. If it was easy more people would be doing it. Unless they are using contacts and hunting someones elses spots, which I personally would never divulge to hardly anyone, then they are putting in some serious time and effort. I hunt pretty much public land mountains in Ga Tn and Al every year. Spent years and years finding my areas and expanding them and I do pretty good each year. I take people with me every year to decent spots and they hear birds and get to work them. The birds are out there if you want them bad enough. I would never invite someone with a camera to come in to any of the places I hunt, I like my spots too much for that and that's not why I hunt turkeys. 
As to what the DNR is doing, typical bureaucracy at work, then again I've never had much respect for them and their ability to manage game.


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## Throwback

If this was all private land this wouldn’t be a factor


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## turkeyhunter89

Timber1 said:


> As to what the DNR is doing, typical bureaucracy at work, then again I've never had much respect for them and their ability to manage game.



Can I get an AMEN!!!

I regularly hunt several states and before all you cry babies chime in keep in mind this is MY OPINION but Georgia is by far the worst from a game management standpoint. From the people who you get on the phone with a question to the conservation officers it really makes me question how OUR money is spent…

I heard that their has been “talk” about THP doing a public land GA Turkey “contest” with Pinhoti this year, supposedly backed by the state with weekly prizes for resident & non residents as a way to “boost”hunter numbers.


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## Gadget

turkeyhunter89 said:


> Can I get an AMEN!!!
> 
> I regularly hunt several states and before all you cry babies chime in keep in mind this is MY OPINION but Georgia is by far the worst from a game management standpoint. From the people who you get on the phone with a question to the conservation officers it really makes me question how OUR money is spent…
> 
> I heard that their has been “talk” about THP doing a public land GA Turkey “contest” with Pinhoti this year, supposedly backed by the state with weekly prizes for resident & non residents as a way to “boost”hunter numbers.




So expanding their efforts this year...lol


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## Gadget

ssramage said:


> I just ran across it.
> 
> I'm a little torn. I 100% support hunter recruitment and driving awareness of hunting opportunities. If we don't do a good job of this, hunter recruitment will continue to drop and opportunities will diminish for us and future generations.
> 
> BUT... it seems very counter intuitive to pay social media influencers to drive nonresident participation when states across the board are reducing their bag limits and hunting opportunities for residents. The marketing activities don't align with the strategy.



Exactly, they don't align at all. Just read the article how deer population and hunter numbers are down 2/3 in the mountains and the statewide decrease in the turkey population and then they hire out of state influencers to drive more hunters.

Its very obvious that Ga cares more about money then wildlife or quality of hunting; dollar signs is all that really matters.


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## Gadget

Hoosier06 said:


> Arizona paid influencers to promote their hunts and now there have been cuts to the OTC mule deer as a direct results.
> 
> I used to watch THP and other shows but they are all just pimping out wildlife until it's a depleted resource then they move onto the next thing. Born raised outdoors did the sMe with elk and now it's so popular they went to waterfowl instead.
> 
> Hunter recruitment is the dumbest idea ever when you can't find a parking spot on public land.



Yep


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## Gut_Pile

turkeyhunter89 said:


> MY OPINION but Georgia is by far the worst from a game management standpoint.



From my experience, everyone thinks their home state is the worst at managing game. I thought forever GA was horrible. Moved to SC and have to say it is far worse. Have friends in Bama that love to hunt GA and SC that think Bama is the worst in the country. Same with friends in Mississippi and Louisiana.

Overall, I think GA does a pretty good job.


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## BASS1FUN

I agree with you turkeyhunter89 with our wardens, I got my license (lifetime license) checked while fishing and the warden asked me , Is this a lifetime license? Needless to say I was dumbfounded DUH its printed on the license, some don't know the antler length on this one WMA I hunted, had one try to give me a ticket for not having a throwable PFD in which a Class A boat is not required, they need some training


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## Timber1

BASS1FUN said:


> I agree with you turkeyhunter89 with our wardens, I got my license (lifetime license) checked while fishing and the warden asked me , Is this a lifetime license? Needless to say I was dumbfounded DUH its printed on the license, some don't know the antler length on this one WMA I hunted, had one try to give me a ticket for not having a throwable PFD in which a Class A boat is not required, they need some training


Give them some credit.....they do a really good job keeping the grass cut around the check-in stations.


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