# Pro-abortion Christians



## Pale Blue Dun (Jan 27, 2007)

I would like to know how many of you are Christians and support abortion and how you can justify it through your faith.

I am asking because I read a story that stated 50% of all Christian support abortion and I just can't believe that statistic.

Dan


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## SBG (Jan 28, 2007)

The term "pro-abortion Christian" is an oxymoron.


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## Pale Blue Dun (Jan 28, 2007)

I agree but according to this study, Christians are split 50-50 on the issue. 

Dan


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## SBG (Jan 28, 2007)

Dan, the only thing I can figure is that the 50% that support abortion are those that are Christian in name only.


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## CAL (Jan 28, 2007)

SBG said:


> Dan, the only thing I can figure is that the 50% that support abortion are those that are Christian in name only.



I agree,how can a person be a true Christain and support the killing of unborn babies?I don't believe that boat will ever float.


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## Medicine Man (Jan 28, 2007)

*Crazy*

I really do not think you will be able to get this to boil, so you can "stir the pot with it". Those two words do not fit.


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## brian chambers (Jan 28, 2007)

Hey man,
 Let's leave the little folks alone. Let them live. If you can do the nasty you can rise them.


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## Medicine Man (Jan 28, 2007)

*choice*

There is no choice.. To kill a child or not? I really do not understand.. Pro choice implies someone has a choice. Anyway I wanted to respond to give you my "choice". I'm not trying to be ugly. Glad my mom did not have the choice.  Looking back she may have made a diffenrt choice.


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## hunter_58 (Jan 28, 2007)

CAL said:


> I agree,how can a person be a true Christain and support the killing of unborn babies?I don't believe that boat will ever float.


I agree also, I would love to hear Jimmy Carter explain this one to his Sunday school class.    If we cant defend the life of a baby, what age in life should we not kill people.


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## 60Grit (Jan 28, 2007)

Hot Dog said:


> I really do not think you will be able to get this to boil, so you can "stir the pot with it". Those two words do not fit.


 
I don't think he was trying to stir. He was trying to distinguish the difference between Pro-Abortion and Pro-Choice in your thread, since only one is addressed.

Although a dichotomous term, it was a legitimate question???


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## jneil (Jan 28, 2007)

A lot of Christians are pro-choice because they believe it's not the goverments job to tell people how to live their lives.


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## 60Grit (Jan 28, 2007)

pfharris1965 said:


> Man law violation...that word has too many syllables...


 
Sorry YORD,

Had to use it, Contradictory had more syllables and I didn't know one that used less with the same meaning....... 

Sue me............ 

But I am still waiting on an answer, this is  a more interesting thread than the original post implies.


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## brian chambers (Jan 28, 2007)

I second that!



pfharris1965 said:


> Man law violation...that word has too many syllables...


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## Arrowslinger (Jan 28, 2007)

If you support abortion you are not a Christian. The life of an unborn child is something we don't get choices over. I really wish people would think about this choice if you only watch Rosie O'Donnel and Barbra Striesand you'd think it would like deciding what to wear, or what kind of icecream to get.


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## THREEJAYS (Jan 28, 2007)

I'm not pro choice , but I'm also glad the good Lord never allowed me to be faced w/ a rape situation that involved a pregnency especially w/racial differences.My .02


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## No. GA. Mt. Man (Jan 28, 2007)

Arrowslinger said:


> If you support abortion you are not a Christian. The life of an unborn child is something we don't get choices over. I really wish people would think about this choice if you only watch Rosie O'Donnel and Barbra Striesand you'd think it would like deciding what to wear, or what kind of icecream to get.



Well said my friend.


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## 60Grit (Jan 28, 2007)

THREEJAYS said:


> I'm not pro choice , but I'm also glad the good Lord never allowed me to be faced w/ a rape situation that involved a pregnency especially w/racial differences.My .02


 
I can't fathom the decisions that would go through a womans mind merely trying to get through the physical recovery of such a vicious attack, much less dealing with the psychological trauma of making a decision related to this thread.

Good interjection 3j's, I think more thought needs to be given from the perspective of the other gender. It is easy for men to spout this type of hype and rehtoric, they don't have to face these decisions.


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## Pale Blue Dun (Jan 28, 2007)

Buddy, if it helps you to sleep at night calling it "pro-choice" then God Bless you. I don't give a rip what you want to call abortion and I usually don't slam anyone other than Linwood but if you support abortion in whatever name makes you feel good, then you're gonna have to reconcile that with someone at a later date. No real Christian could ever support abortion. 

Let's just say that a white woman was raped by a black man. Please tell me what part of that scenario the child had anything to do with. Did the child do anything wrong? Why does the child have to pay for the crime with it's life? Justify that to me. Why must the child pay for the rapists crime? Tell me. I want to know. 

Dan


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## 60Grit (Jan 28, 2007)

Pale Blue Dun said:


> Buddy, if it helps you to sleep at night calling it "pro-choice" then God Bless you. I don't give a rip what you want to call abortion and I usually don't slam anyone other than Linwood but if you support abortion in whatever name makes you feel good, then you're gonna have to reconcile that with someone at a later date. No real Christian could ever support abortion.
> 
> Let's just say that a white woman was raped by a black man. Please tell me what part of that scenario the child had anything to do with. Did the child do anything wrong? Why does the child have to pay for the crime with it's life? Justify that to me. Why must the child pay for the rapists crime? Tell me. I want to know.
> 
> Dan


 
All I can tell you is, you need to expand your thinking.
And for what it is worth, it wouldn't matter if it were purple and green people. That is not the point.

This is an endless debate and our views will never land on the same plane, thus I will not lend further comment to rebuke.


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## Medicine Man (Jan 28, 2007)

*I was wrong*

So I was wrong not only did it boil know it's time to stir it a little. I will not commit on this . There are good points made. I Have a problem becuase the men do not have a say on the decision. If you want to talk about "what if" What if a women gets pregant by the greatest men ever and does not want the child but the man does?  That is the problem with getting into the "what if" There's too many of them.
I would guess there is a few of us on here that gave our parents enough trouble that, looking back should have pinched our head off when they had the chance. 
Everyone has to set there own moral standards that's just mine..


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## SBG (Jan 28, 2007)

The saddest thing about this entire thread are those that want to sterilize the issue by insisting that it is a matter of "choice," and for whatever the reason, refuse to see it in the light that it truly is; it is the taking of innocent life by someone else.

For those of you that defer the decision to the mother and rationalize it all away by calling it her choice, what scriptural grounds do you use to support this "belief."

Exactly.


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## Baby Bear (Jan 28, 2007)

The thing I don't like is using the government to push  religious views or agendas. This will work fine till christianity is not the most popular religion in america then when another religion with different views takes over whatch ya gonna do? you used the government for your religious agendas now we will too


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## 60Grit (Jan 28, 2007)

Jeff Squires said:


> The thing I don't like is using the government to push religious views or agendas. This will work fine till christianity is not the most popular religion in america then when another religion with different views takes over whatch ya gonna do? you used the government for your religious agendas now we will too


 
Actually the next religion knocking at our door is one of less tolerance with the penalty of death for much lesser offenses than abortion.


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## hunter_58 (Jan 28, 2007)

Jeff Squires said:


> The thing I don't like is using the government to push  religious views or agendas. This will work fine till christianity is not the most popular religion in america then when another religion with different views takes over whatch ya gonna do? you used the government for your religious agendas now we will too


   you don't have to be religious to respect life.   If you take all religion out of  the abortion debate, there is still the right for this baby to live it's life.  OUR govt makes  laws to protect people and provide guide lines for people to follow .   The govt had the opportunity to protect people that cannot protect them selves, and failed them. have you ever heard of post birth abortion. At what age is killing people acceptable or not ???? when i think about abortion i think about what god said directly to us, wrote it himself . thou shalt not kill


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## Arrowslinger (Jan 29, 2007)

Jeff Squires said:


> The thing I don't like is using the government to push  religious views or agendas. This will work fine till christianity is not the most popular religion in america then when another religion with different views takes over whatch ya gonna do? you used the government for your religious agendas now we will too


 I agree with you 100% I think the goverment should stay out of the religion business completely. I feel that this issue is not about religion but of life. There are laws on the books about killing humans. I felt this way long before I ever set foot in a church just not as strongly. I don't however feel that being Pro-abortion views are compatible with Christianity. It says in the Bible that God knew us before we were born and he loved us then.


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## Pale Blue Dun (Jan 29, 2007)

PF,

I still would like to see you reconcile your "Pro-Choice" stance against your faith. So far I have seen nothing. 

Dan


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## HuntinTom (Jan 29, 2007)

pfharris1965 said:


> I have sat here and watched as some people in the spiritual debate forum have repeatedly been allowed to bash and attack everyone that has a different belief than they do...personal faith and religious denomination have been verbally shredded with no consequence...
> 
> I agree that there have been some passion gone too far and become personal attacks - But - Not without consequence - There have been warnings and three banned in the past month for such -- It's difficult to catch each attack (And an attack isn't simply a difference of opinion and sometimes subject to the reading by different people).  But, if you or anyone else sees what you think is a personal attack, by all means PM me or an administrator and we will look at it as  quickly as we can...)
> 
> ...



...


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## DCHunter (Jan 29, 2007)

hunter_58 said:


> you don't have to be religious to respect life.   If you take all religion out of  the abortion debate, there is still the right for this baby to live it's life.  OUR govt makes  laws to protect people and provide guide lines for people to follow .   The govt had the opportunity to protect people that cannot protect them selves, and failed them. have you ever heard of post birth abortion. At what age is killing people acceptable or not ???? when i think about abortion i think about what god said directly to us, wrote it himself . thou shalt not kill


I agree. The argument that the government shouldn't meddle in peoples personal choices in this case is like saying the government shouldn't be able to stop you from killing your 8 year old kid if he gets too expensive to raise.


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## PWalls (Jan 29, 2007)

What is the definition of Pro-Choice and Anti-Abortion?

Seems like semantics if I am understanding them correctly. Anti-abortionists are against abortion (meaning they wouldn't do it). Pro-choice means they think it is up to the mother. Am I correct?

Don't see how you can be both. If you are truly anti-abortion, then you can't be pro-choice either. You either believe that abortion should not be performed or you do.


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## Swamprat (Jan 29, 2007)

Let your wife be raped and impregnated and then see how pro-life you really are all.


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## SBG (Jan 29, 2007)

Swamprat said:


> Let your wife be raped and impregnated and then see how pro-life you really are all.




Never been in those shoes, but I pray that I would still feel the same way...that the baby is innocent regardless of the situation.

I really respect my wife because of this issue. She said that even if her life was in danger, she would never abort her baby.


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## Medicine Man (Jan 29, 2007)

*Who knows*

Boy that would be a deal breaker wouldn't it. You know PF has a good point that we all have our own opinion and that's a good thing. I would like to be clear that I support you for that. AND IT IS EASY to say what you would or would not do until you are faced with that decision. Please do not think I am against anyone's opinion. 
I go to church, not as often as I should, but PF I also try to stay away from the ones that impose on my faith.


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## addictedtodeer (Jan 29, 2007)

Just some stats to ponder:
Race: Most women seeking abortion are white (59.1%); 2% were black, and 5.7% were of other races.

Age: Abortion rates are highest among 20- to 24-year-old women. Rates are lowest among women younger than 20 or older than 40 years, but these women are far more likely to have an abortion if they become pregnant.
-from emedicine

Black, white, and other races experienced about the same rates of rape/sexual assault.- dept. of Justice

 Interesting to note on the Dept. of Justice website it seems to go Hispanic, black, then white as highest to lowest when it comes to rape (2005 stats)

Can't really find a non-biased stat on abortion due to rape
Pro choice groups put it as high as 10%
pro-life groups put it as 1%
can not find any government stats for it. so maybe somewhere in between.

All say that abortion is on the decrease.


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## Baby Bear (Jan 29, 2007)

DCHunter said:


> I agree. The argument that the government shouldn't meddle in peoples personal choices in this case is like saying the government shouldn't be able to stop you from killing your 8 year old kid if he gets too expensive to raise.



There is a difference when the government is controlling what you do with your own body, instead of someone elses. 

And I know this is gonna open up the can of worms that the baby is someone else, and this is true but it is fully dependant on the mother which puts it back IMO to being the mothers body.

I also realize that a 9 month can not survive independantly, had to throw that one in there before some body made that statement

My whole idea is less government control, I'm not in favor of abortion. But if my wife and I faced a tradegy like mentioned earlier with a forced action against her and she became pregnant. I don't know what we would do (other than Pray alot) but I sure don't think the government should make that decision for us.


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## addictedtodeer (Jan 29, 2007)

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but you should check out just how many people are waiting to adopt children in this country.
I wish many who went for abortion would seriously consider first the adoption route.  Yes, it would require 9 months out of their lives, but they would be giving a couple 18+ years of joy.


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## Flash (Jan 29, 2007)

Jeff Squires said:


> The thing I don't like is using the government to push  religious views or agendas.



 But they (government) do in some form or fashion. 

 As I understand it when our country was founded we (as a government) acknowledged that we had a Creator and needed his guidance.   But at the same time never said "ok boys y'all better be of the _________ faith".


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## SBG (Jan 29, 2007)

Jeff Squires said:


> And I know this is gonna open up the can of worms that the baby is someone else, and this is true but it is fully dependant on the mother which puts it back IMO to being the mothers body.
> 
> I also realize that a 9 month can not survive independantly, had to throw that one in there before some body made that statement
> 
> My whole idea is less government control, I'm not in favor of abortion. But if my wife and I faced a tradegy like mentioned earlier with a forced action against her and she became pregnant. I don't know what we would do (other than Pray alot) but I sure don't think the government should make that decision for us.



Jeff, I realize that you are not in favor of abortion, and some of your reasoning for less government intervention is compelling. But just for discussion, why is the government allowed to make a decision that beating a nine month old is illegal? 

I believe we have to get past the pre/post birth argument. 

Please someone answer this: Why is it a choice to abort a baby one day prior to its natural birth, and murder to kill the baby one day after?


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## Flash (Jan 29, 2007)

SBG said:


> Please someone answer this: Why is it a choice to abort a baby one day prior to its natural birth, and murder to kill the baby one day after?



 Or,  If the mother aborts the baby then that is ok vs if a person shoots the mother and both the baby and mother die then that's a double murder?????


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## brian chambers (Jan 29, 2007)

Let them live, a baby is so cool


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## THREEJAYS (Jan 29, 2007)

addictedtodeer said:


> I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but you should check out just how many people are waiting to adopt children in this country.
> I wish many who went for abortion would seriously consider first the adoption route.  Yes, it would require 9 months out of their lives, but they would be giving a couple 18+ years of joy.



Very true


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## Pale Blue Dun (Jan 30, 2007)

I didn't mean to attack PF and that was wrong. But I am still asking the question that nobody here has answered. How can you reconcile your pro-choice or pro abortion views against your faith?

Now PF, you said you don't have to answer to me but you freely responded to this thread so I would like to have an answer from you or anyone else to the above question. I am asking because I can't reconcile it and maybe I'm missing something.

Dan


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## Baby Bear (Jan 30, 2007)

I don't think it can be reconciled with your faith.

I said before that I do not agree with abortion.

I don't feel that the government should have a say in the matter.

Try this out: Honor thy Father and Mother. It's a sin not to do this, right? But the Government shouldn't have a say in it. There are some things that we must police as individauls. Ultimately we will have to answer for our actions.

Just my opinion


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## SBG (Jan 30, 2007)

Baby Bear said:


> I don't think it can be reconciled with your faith.
> 
> I also said before that I do not agree with abortion.
> 
> I don't feel that the government should have a say in the matter.



Baby Bear, do I understand you correctly...you don't think that the gov should have any say so as in regulating abortion?


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## Branchminnow (Jan 30, 2007)

SBG said:


> The term "pro-abortion Christian" is an oxymoron.


My thoughts as well.


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## Baby Bear (Jan 30, 2007)

SBG said:


> Baby Bear, do I understand you correctly...you don't think that the gov should have any say so as in regulating abortion?



I don't think it is their business to tell a woman that for no reason what so ever can you have an abortion. 

If you are refering to regulations, I can't off hand think of any but I am sure that there some regulations that may need to be in place. Just like hand guns I don't think that the government should be able to tell me I can't have one but there are regulations that need to be in  place for the owner's of guns.

I still do not agree with abortion. 

I just like freedom from government instead of the security in government that so many people are turning to.


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## SBG (Jan 30, 2007)

Baby Bear said:


> I don't think it is their business to tell a woman that for no reason what so ever can you have an abortion.
> 
> If you are refering to regulations, I can't off hand think of any but I am sure that there some regulations that may need to be in place. Just like hand guns I don't think that the government should be able to tell me I can't have one but there are regulations that need to be in  place for the owner's of guns.
> 
> ...



No offense...but I don't understand that logic. It is okay to make laws that protect a 9 month old post birth baby, but not a baby before it is born?


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## Baby Bear (Jan 30, 2007)

SBG said:


> No offense...but I don't understand that logic. It is okay to make laws that protect a 9 month old post birth baby, but not a baby before it is born?



No offense taken, and I never said that it was logical it' s just my opinion.


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## SBG (Jan 31, 2007)

Baby Bear said:


> No offense taken, and I never said that it was logical it' s just my opinion.



What do you base your opinion on, if you don't mind me asking?


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## tail_slider3d (Jan 31, 2007)

pro choice christians

Now thats funny right there I dont care who you are.


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## Baby Bear (Jan 31, 2007)

SBG said:


> What do you base your opinion on, if you don't mind me asking?



SBG,

Please take no offense to this, but at this point I feel if you read my previous posts it is more than clear how I have reached my opinion, and that is exactly what it is an opinion. I am not trying to force it on anyone or trying to convience anyone to jump ship and join me. 

While at times this thread has gotten a little heated, I hope that I have not come across as has being mean spirited or unkind to anyone posting here on Woody's. If so I would like to ask for your forgiveness. I enjoy reading an posting in the religious forum, I like it because it makes you think about your beliefs and put thought into your opinions. I believe that this will help make us stronger Christians and a better witness for God. 

Discussion of this topic beyond this point has little gain to me, so I will kindly let you have the post.


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## SBG (Jan 31, 2007)

Baby Bear said:


> SBG,
> 
> Please take no offense to this, but at this point I feel if you read my previous posts it is more than clear how I have reached my opinion, and that is exactly what it is an opinion. I am not trying to force it on anyone or trying to convience anyone to jump ship and join me.
> 
> ...



Believe me, there is no offense taken. And I didn't mean to single you out for your beliefs; it just so happens that you were the post at that time.

This subject has been discussed dozens of times on this forum and it never changes anyone's mind. Only the Holy Spirit can do that. For all of those on here that profess to be Christians but cannot defend their "belief/opinion" with scripture, I would simply ask that you really pray about this subject. Ultimately, it is God who you will answer to.


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## Wild Turkey (Jan 31, 2007)

In your opinion, when does life start? abortion being murder begin?
I suppose wearing a condom is killing 1000's of potential lives every time one is thrown in the trash. The pill kills potential lives on a montly basis.

On a lighter note dont throw those condoms in the toilet if you have a septic tank. In the future you and your father in law will be standing there when the top is pulled off the tank to pump it out. The look on his face was priceless. his house his daughter, He said, I havent ever used a condom, how did they get in there.


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## leroy (Jan 31, 2007)

At conception. A condom and the pill prevent conception, 99% of the time anyway.


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## toddboucher (Jan 31, 2007)

This is something I don't understand. A christian is not a name of someone in a club, it means Christ live in you and you in him. Since life come from God and he's leading you in your choices (right), then simply his choice would be life. 
Now if someone calls themself a Christian by name only and the Spirit of the living God is not inside them, that person makes his own choices which could make a choice to end life.

Lets face it, a true born again Christian could no more support abortion then own or support a x-rated store. Even if they could made a lot of money on it, the earthly man would say whatever busness one enters in is a choice. Might even say, I would never own one but its legal and its you choice. Same discussion, same point of the pro abortion side.

Lastly there is no such thing as pro-choice because abortion is big busness and they made BIG money off it. You for something or against it, call me anti-abortion and I'll agree with you.


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## HuntinTom (Jan 31, 2007)

Wild Turkey said:


> In your opinion, when does life start? abortion being murder begin?
> *I'd say at CONCEPTION...  God knows us in our mother's womb - Even when mother and father don't even know - At conception life begins - At that point the soul is born - The soul being that part of every human that has the image of God - The DNA of God if you will -- That part of us that is the most intimately connected to God and is designed and destined to dwell forever...*
> I suppose wearing a condom is killing 1000's of potential lives every time one is thrown in the trash. The pill kills potential lives on a monthly basis.
> *Not yet life - Potential - Sure - But not yet a living soul - Those sperm (and the eggs they might "potentially" fertilize) will dissolve on their own if not utilized in the God-Created conception process -- Therefore, no life was taken - But, after conception, a precious soul loved by God, designed by God, created by God, and sacrificed on behalf of through Jesus has been snuffed...
> ...



...


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## Emmersom Biggens (Jan 31, 2007)

I put this in the same category as the gay preacher that has been on the news. His congregation is supporting him. I can't believe this. I am by no means perfect, but a homosexual trying to set an example for Christians and Christians to be, give me a break. I'm not trying to change the subject, but thats how far apart abortion and Christian should be. The commandment says Thou shall not kill, not Thou shall not kill except babies. JMO though.


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## Arrowslinger (Jan 31, 2007)

I'm Anti-abortion (which is an understatement). I'm not against birth control (condoms, vassectomy) but I'm against the Pill and morning after pill. Both of these medications have the potential to kill an embryo. They don't always prevent conception sometimes conception occurs then the embryo dies because of the medication.

Also I agree with HT 100%.


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## Derek (Jan 31, 2007)

Another thing to consider is that "a sin is a sin in God's eyes".....Having an abortion is no worse than any other sin in God's eyes...Look at it that way....

BTW- I am pro-life all the way..


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## StriperAddict (Jan 31, 2007)

The founding rector at Church of the Apostles nearly lost his life from an abortion that was cancelled last minute. At the church he has talked  a few times about how his mother refused to take her doctor's advise and get an abortion.  The night before she was to have the abortion, she was visited by her pastor  who told her the child she is carrying would grow up to serve the Lord and honor His name.

Michael Youseff never speaks of this without tears coming to his eyes.  He is the founding rector of Church of the Apostles.


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## DSGB2000 (Feb 5, 2007)

If you have Jesus Christ in your heart killing an unborn child should never cross your mind.


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## pendy (Feb 11, 2007)

Jmike said:


> Tough conversation....for sure....i am pro-life to the core...and a "Christian", but for those of you that try and judge whether or not another man or woman is a "Christian" by whether or not they are pro-choice or pro-life...I think you are walking on as shaky ground as they are.
> I would be real careful with the, "i have a hard time believing you're a Christian" remarks.



Amen to this.


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## Six million dollar ham (Feb 16, 2007)

hunter_58 said:


> you don't have to be religious to respect life.   If you take all religion out of  the abortion debate, there is still the right for this baby to live it's life.  OUR govt makes  laws to protect people and provide guide lines for people to follow .   The govt had the opportunity to protect people that cannot protect them selves, and failed them. have you ever heard of post birth abortion. At what age is killing people acceptable or not ???? when i think about abortion i think about what god said directly to us, wrote it himself . thou shalt not kill



True indeed.  But do  you believe in killing for self-defense? Capital punishment (even Saddam or bin Laden)?  Euthanasia?  Hospice?  War?  There are some who even argue "thou shalt not kill" is not limited to just humans but animals also.  

Just curious.  Not picking at you, this is open to anybody, I'm just curious as to the distinctions folks make.


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## Arrowslinger (Feb 18, 2007)

Six million dollar ham said:


> True indeed.  But do  you believe in killing for self-defense? Capital punishment (even Saddam or bin Laden)?  Euthanasia?  Hospice?  War?  There are some who even argue "thou shalt not kill" is not limited to just humans but animals also.
> 
> Just curious.  Not picking at you, this is open to anybody, I'm just curious as to the distinctions folks make.



We know that "Thou salt not kill" does not mean animals because Moses the Apostles and Jesus ate the flesh of animals. I struggle with it but in my heart I know any killing of a Human is bad/sinful. With that said if you intend to harm my family or break into my home I'll shoot you dead. I let my emotions and what I "feel" is right get in the way of being more like Christ.


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## Six million dollar ham (Feb 18, 2007)

Arrowslinger said:


> We know that "Thou salt not kill" does not mean animals because Moses the Apostles and Jesus ate the flesh of animals. I struggle with it but in my heart I know any killing of a Human is bad/sinful. With that said if you intend to harm my family or break into my home I'll shoot you dead. I let my emotions and what I "feel" is right get in the way of being more like Christ.



Thanks for the response.  I actually debated with some JW's in the driveway once who maintained that ALL killing is a mortal sin.  I didn't think to ask about antibacterial soap, mosquitoes, and poison ivy.  I did ask the "if somebody's got a gun to your child's head..." and they responded even then killing is a one-way ticket to hades.  That's what made me think of the above.


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## 60Grit (Feb 18, 2007)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Thanks for the response. I actually debated with some JW's in the driveway once who maintained that ALL killing is a mortal sin. I didn't think to ask about antibacterial soap, mosquitoes, and poison ivy. I did ask the "if somebody's got a gun to your child's head..." and they responded even then killing is a one-way ticket to hades. That's what made me think of the above.


 
Just as the casual murderer has to live with the guilt of the crime and sin within his own conscious, if he has one. So to does the woman that has to make the decision to kill a living being in favor of, what ever the reason may be. Should it be a crime related rape, I doubt her concious is too disturbed, but then again, I have never had to make that decision so I could be 100% wrong.

Likewise, it is not my place to force a judgement upon her prior to her making that decision, or not, any more than I can call a man guilty of a murder he has not commited. Just as stated above, once she makes that decision, it is between her and God, not her and me.


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## Deerslayr (Feb 18, 2007)

I believe abortion is wrong, but there are certain reasons for abortion I can agree with. This doesn't make me "Pro Choice".  You have to look at the individual reasons. Rape is one. I wouldn't want my daughter to carry a child if she had been raped, the child would be a constant reminder of the pain and torture she endured being raped. On the other hand our politicians have allowed women who sleep around and get preg. the  "opportunity" to fix the situation. If abortion wasn't so easy to come by maybe there wouldn't be so much to discuss. Maybe this is a little off topic, but I'll add it anyway. I'm a God called preacher. To say someone isn't a Christian isn't my call, or anyone else's for that matter. We have all made Un-Christian like choices. "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God" There is only one thing that makes you and I a Christian that is Saved = Heaven or Un-saved = headed south


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## JWarren (Feb 19, 2007)

Baby Bear said:


> There is a difference when the government is controlling what you do with your own body, instead of someone elses.



The government says that you cannot walk your naked body around in public.....  Are you opposed to that?


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## hunter_58 (Feb 20, 2007)

Six million dollar ham said:


> True indeed.  But do  you believe in killing for self-defense? Capital punishment (even Saddam or bin Laden)?  Euthanasia?  Hospice?  War?  There are some who even argue "thou shalt not kill" is not limited to just humans but animals also.
> 
> Just curious.  Not picking at you, this is open to anybody, I'm just curious as to the distinctions folks make.


 
    yes i do believe in some of the above, where as adult they have consistently made decisions to harm other people but, and here is a big but, innocent children have a special place in gods heart.  they haven't had a chance to make their choices in life. therefore they are completely innocent in god eyes. the absolute most pure human there is. just my opinion


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## Six million dollar ham (Feb 20, 2007)

hunter_58 said:


> *yes i do believe in some of the above, where as adult they have consistently made decisions to harm other people but, and here is a big but, innocent children have a special place in gods heart.*  they haven't had a chance to make their choices in life. therefore they are completely innocent in god eyes. the absolute most pure human there is. just my opinion



So how does one differentiate between an unborn fetus and a soldier at war on the other team?


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## hunter_58 (Feb 20, 2007)

Six million dollar ham said:


> So how does one differentiate between an unborn fetus and a soldier at war on the other team?


   the child is the younger one  . if you cant tell by what i have said earlier, then this can go on and on. cant justify killing a baby with hanging a mass murderer. The bible has had wars and killing through out it's history. I'll try one last time though, if you drive the get away car then you helped rob the bank. this bank was special in gods eyes. It's not my call to make, but I'll go on record as being against killing babies. Good luck


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## ramsey (Feb 20, 2007)

I'm against killing babies.
I'm pro-abortion
What exactly is the federal and state laws concerning this?

or-- is there any exact line or limit that is enforced?


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## hunter_58 (Feb 21, 2007)

ramsey said:


> I'm against killing babies.
> I'm pro-abortion
> What exactly is the federal and state laws concerning this?
> 
> or-- is there any exact line or limit that is enforced?



 if your pro abortion, then your pro baby killing. no ifs ands and buts


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## Six million dollar ham (Feb 21, 2007)

I guess I'm pretty much pro-death.  At least I'm consistent.

I'm all for hospice, euthanasia, war when necessary, hunting, physician-assisted suicide, the death penalty for many many crimes besides murder, and abortion.


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## hunter_58 (Feb 21, 2007)

Six million dollar ham said:


> I guess I'm pretty much pro-death.  At least I'm consistent.
> 
> I'm all for hospice, euthanasia, war when necessary, hunting, physician-assisted suicide, the death penalty for many many crimes besides murder, and abortion.


          NO not really consistent. every one you mentioned is either a punishment, or with the consent of the person leaving this earth, except abortion. The one being aborted committed no crime, or had a horrible disease where they would want ease their pain and leave this earth. I feel pretty much the same as you with the exception of abortion, but there's no need to put babies in this group just to try and  justify abortion. lump like kind together and see if the kids don't stand out  by themselves, within your list. good luck


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## cball917 (Mar 1, 2007)

WWJD??????? I dont think there is any debate with that????


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## SBG (Mar 2, 2007)

cball917 said:


> WWJD??????? I dont think there is any debate with that????



I have no doubt whatsoever that Jesus was and still is pro-choice. 

You just better make the right choice.


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## Randy (Mar 2, 2007)

I am pro-choice.  But for me it would not be a choice.  Abortion is murder, but even that is just another sin.  I would not do it and would hope nobody would make that choice.  But these people that use is as birth control are sinning anyway adn if they had a baby they would not take care of it and it would have a hard life.  They make the choice and they will have to answer to God.  I am not sying it is right adn I certainly would not do it, but I think a person should have a choice.


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## Spotlite (Mar 5, 2007)

Pale Blue Dun said:


> I would like to know how many of you are Christians and support abortion and how you can justify it through your faith.
> 
> I am asking because I read a story that stated 50% of all Christian support abortion and I just can't believe that statistic.
> 
> Dan



"Self Professed" Christians.

I hate it when they take these polls and where they take them. I can take you to some neighbor hoods here where they are falling out the door strung out something and just got through beating their wife or kids, yet when asked, they are a Christian. That word is used to loosely, they were first called Christians at Antioch for a reason, they were Christ like.


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## greene_dawg (Mar 6, 2007)

Just for the sake of argument: Adultery is a sin.  What about keeping up with the Jones? Thou shall not covet your neighbors house... Isn't that a sin? Should it be illegal? What about someone who works on a Sunday because their boss tells them to or because if they don't they'll not have dinner for their family? Would anyone like to make that person into a criminal? These are all in the ten commandments but I'm not for rounding up the likes of our great politicians to haul these folks off to jail. I guess what I'm getting at is that I can personally be against adultery, not work on Sundays, and live my life within my means without thinking that it is the governments job to enforce these personal beliefs on others. What makes abortion different to God?  In God's eyes is abortion worse than working 60 hours a week so that you can have a bigger house or not observing the Sabbath? And since I'm not for committing adultery but against making laws that would make it illegal, does that make me pro-adultery?


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## Arrowslinger (Mar 7, 2007)

greene_dawg said:


> What makes abortion different to God?  In God's eyes is abortion worse than working 60 hours a week so that you can have a bigger house or not observing the Sabbath? And since I'm not for committing adultery but against making laws that would make it illegal, does that make me pro-adultery?



The answer is in the other Sins you mention you are only harming yourself and you decided to do it. With an abortion the baby does not get a choice. It's like your justifing a Horrific Sin by saying the other Horrific Sins we commit are equally bad it's still a sin.


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## Thanatos (Mar 7, 2007)

DSGB2000 said:


> If you have Jesus Christ in your heart killing an unborn child should never cross your mind.



This post is crazy. WWJD??? We are all condemned to living in sin. We are not Jesus...try all you like, but you will never be perfect. All you men with young daughters (around 13 or 14 years old) imagine telling her that she needs to bear a child to birth that was given to her because she was raped. If your wife was about to DIE because of complications of birth...would you pick your wife or child? If you are truthful with your self which one are you going to pick

"If you have Jesus Christ in your heart killing an unborn child should never cross your mind." This is the most closed minded post ever for this topic.


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## SBG (Mar 7, 2007)

Thanatos said:


> This post is crazy. WWJD??? We are all condemned to living in sin. We are not Jesus...try all you like, but you will never be perfect. All you men with young daughters (around 13 or 14 years old) imagine telling her that she needs to bear a child to birth that was given to her because she was raped. If your wife was about to DIE because of complications of birth...would you pick your wife or child? If you are truthful with your self which one are you going to pick
> 
> "If you have Jesus Christ in your heart killing an unborn child should never cross your mind." This is the most closed minded post ever for this topic.



You have got to live by faith. 

The rape allowance is ridiculous. Why kill an innocent baby because of the sin of the father? Especially when there are literally thousands of families that would cherish the child from that situation. 

Although the health of the mother is a rare occurrence for an abortion, less than a tenth of one percent, God is still in control of the circumstance.


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## greene_dawg (Mar 7, 2007)

Arrowslinger - I agree with you totally. Just trying to stir conversation on the subject. I personally think that the government has too much power in our personal lives but I'm afraid that abortion is one of those things that I'm afraid that they will have to keep a finger on. As far as rape or possibly death during birth for the mother, I won't cast stones at the people who have had to make that choice.


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## Thanatos (Mar 7, 2007)

SBG said:


> You have got to live by faith.
> 
> The rape allowance is ridiculous. Why kill an innocent baby because of the sin of the father? Especially when there are literally thousands of families that would cherish the child from that situation.
> 
> Although the health of the mother is a rare occurrence for an abortion, less than a tenth of one percent, God is still in control of the circumstance.



Yes, living by faith is the goal we strive for. So you are telling me that you could sit there and hold your wifes hand while she died, yet you could save her??? I hope one day i could have that much faith, but i dont know if i ever will. 
There is no way in ImadummyImadummyImadummyImadummy I would let my little girl give birth to a child that is no fault of her own at 13 or 14 years old. Your response about letting the child be adopted needs to be thought out with empathy for a young girl who is scared out of her mind...


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## toddboucher (Mar 7, 2007)

Spotlite said:


> "Self Professed" Christians.
> 
> I hate it when they take these polls and where they take them. I can take you to some neighbor hoods here where they are falling out the door strung out something and just got through beating their wife or kids, yet when asked, they are a Christian. That word is used to loosely, they were first called Christians at Antioch for a reason, they were Christ like.



You got it, as part of a witnessing program in Atlanta a few years back. We started out just going out and asking are you a "born-again Christian" about 85-90% said yes. Many feel if your an American your a Christian. Im talking from the druged out to the rich in buckhead. 
Then we used it as a soul winning tool. Asking what makes you a Christian and why would God let you in Heaven. My guess is that it then cut down to 10-20% were Christians as the bible would define. I still would say to stop abortion get more folks saved, because light and darkness can't live together.


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## SBG (Mar 7, 2007)

Thanatos said:


> Yes, living by faith is the goal we strive for. So you are telling me that you could sit there and hold your wifes hand while she died, yet you could save her??? I hope one day i could have that much faith, but i dont know if i ever will.
> There is no way in ImadummyImadummyImadummyImadummy I would let my little girl give birth to a child that is no fault of her own at 13 or 14 years old. Your response about letting the child be adopted needs to be thought out with empathy for a young girl who is scared out of her mind...



Well thank God that my little girl (17 now) was saved when she was 7 years old, and I have no doubt that if that terrible thing had happend to her, she would not have had an abortion. 

And as for the health of my wife...it just so happens that we were faced with that situation with our first child. My wife began bleeding profusely during the first term of the pregnancy, and against the advice of doctors and some family members, she opted not to abort the pregnancy. 

BTW, that pregnancy resulted in a little runt of a baby that is now 6' 1" and 250 lbs. He is in pre-med and is going to be a pediatrician.

Got to live by faith.


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## Thanatos (Mar 7, 2007)

SBG said:


> Well thank God that my little girl (17 now) was saved when she was 7 years old, and I have no doubt that if that terrible thing had happend to her, she would not have had an abortion.
> 
> And as for the health of my wife...it just so happens that we were faced with that situation with our first child. My wife began bleeding profusely during the first term of the pregnancy, and against the advice of doctors and some family members, she opted not to abort the pregnancy.
> 
> ...



Well i would make the same choice you did in that situation. But, if you KNEW that your wife was going to die what would you pick. Your sitting there thinking about all the memories and feelings you all have shared...it's not as cut and dry as you make it. I hope and pray that I could make the right choice in that situation.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 7, 2007)

Thanatos said:


> Well i would make the same choice you did in that situation. But, if you KNEW that your wife was going to die what would you pick. Your sitting there thinking about all the memories and feelings you all have shared...it's not as cut and dry as you make it. I hope and pray that I could make the right choice in that situation.



Thanatos,

There are no certainties in this life. Even if you make the choice to save your wife, it is in God's hands, how do you know that God wouldn't take what you and the physicians tried to save anyway?

There is a time when we all have to come to a realization that we are not in control. God is! That will never change!

Yes, the answer is to just have faith, faith that what will happen will happen, and that there is a reason for everything that happens, because God is in control.

If God wants to take anyones life, is there anything that can stop Him?

DB BB


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## Thanatos (Mar 7, 2007)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Thanatos,
> 
> There are no certainties in this life. Even if you make the choice to save your wife, it is in God's hands, how do you know that God wouldn't take what you and the physicians tried to save anyway?
> 
> ...



Yes but if she dies in a car accident I could accept that. If I was the one telling the doctor to let her die I dont know if I could. Men are given free will and God's foreknowledge of that is what makes him all knowing. So through God's freewill i have killed my wife. I know he would take care of me...yet I dont know if i could take care of myself.


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## greene_dawg (Mar 7, 2007)

I've got a slightly different scenerio for you guys. Let's say your 14 year old daughter was raped by the worst possible crackhead that you can imagine. Two weeks later the doctor tells you that your daughters body is simply not ready for child birth and it is 99% certain that your daughter will die if she carries the baby past mid term but the baby could be saved at her expense. Or they could abort the baby and save your daughters life. It's your choice. I choose my daughter every time.


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## SBG (Mar 7, 2007)

Thanatos said:


> But, if you KNEW that your wife was going to die what would you pick.



The doctor did not come right out and say "your wife is going to die." He said that based on the condition, that as the baby grows, IF a certain thing happens, it is highly likely that she would bleed to death before she reached a hospital. Based on that, he recommended terminating the pregnancy. My wife trusted God and He blessed us with our first child.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 7, 2007)

greene_dawg said:


> I've got a slightly different scenerio for you guys. Let's say your 14 year old daughter was raped by the worst possible crackhead that you can imagine. Two weeks later the doctor tells you that your daughters body is simply not ready for child birth and it is 99% certain that your daughter will die if she carries the baby past mid term but the baby could be saved at her expense. Or they could abort the baby and save your daughters life. It's your choice. I choose my daughter every time.



Atleast half of the Child you have chosen to abort is your grandson/granddaughter. That did nothing, except be concieved.

If I am not mistaken when a girl starts her monthly's then that means that her body is capable of carrying a child. I am no doctor, but I think I remember somthing about that in a Anatomy and Physiology class in college, if there is a DR on here that can shead some light on this that would be great.

You are going to put your faith in the hands of a Doctor? A doctor that is putting your daughter's life at risk by doing an abortion?

DB BB


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## Thanatos (Mar 7, 2007)

"Men are given free will and God's foreknowledge of that is what makes him all knowing. So through God's freewill i have killed my wife." NO ONE RESPONDED TO THIS STATEMENT!

SBG, you just said that your wife and you made the choice. If I had time to sit down and talk this over with my wife then this is a whole other matter. The situation is your wife is dying and not coherent. You must pick your wife or child. What do you do?


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## Spotlite (Mar 7, 2007)

greene_dawg said:


> Just for the sake of argument: Adultery is a sin.  What about keeping up with the Jones? Thou shall not covet your neighbors house... Isn't that a sin? Should it be illegal? What about someone who works on a Sunday because their boss tells them to or because if they don't they'll not have dinner for their family? Would anyone like to make that person into a criminal?



Your right, no sin is bigger or smaller than any other sin. But we cant support the sin, be it abortion or rape, we got to stand against all of it.

As far as working on Sunday, if it is required to do it, you have no choice. Get your ox out of the ditch


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 7, 2007)

Thanatos said:


> "Men are given free will and God's foreknowledge of that is what makes him all knowing. So through God's freewill i have killed my wife." NO ONE RESPONDED TO THIS STATEMENT!



Yes we have free will, but our free will can be good or evil.

So tell me, which is more evil, killing your wife or killing your child?

Which one do you think your wife would want? To die knowing that the child will live, or to kill the child so she can live.

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 7, 2007)

The Philadelphia Confession of Faith 1742 Chapter 9 Of Free Will

4.When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin, and by his grace alone enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so as that by reason of his remaining corruptions, he doth not perfectly, nor only will, that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.

(Col. 1:13; John 8:36; Phil. 2:13; Rom. 7:15, 18, 19, 21, 23)


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## greene_dawg (Mar 7, 2007)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Atleast half of the Child you have chosen to abort is your grandson/granddaughter. That did nothing, except be concieved.
> 
> If I am not mistaken when a girl starts her monthly's then that means that her body is capable of carrying a child. I am no doctor, but I think I remember somthing about that in a Anatomy and Physiology class in college, if there is a DR on here that can shead some light on this that would be great.
> 
> ...



It was a hypothetical question and you didn't answer it but I'll assume from your response that you'd not pay much attention to the doctors God given ability to diagnose your daughter correctly and let God's will run it's course. I agree that in the example that the baby is innocent but so is the daughter.


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## SBG (Mar 7, 2007)

Thanatos said:


> "Men are given free will and God's foreknowledge of that is what makes him all knowing. So through God's freewill i have killed my wife." NO ONE RESPONDED TO THIS STATEMENT!
> 
> SBG, you just said that your wife and you made the choice. If I had time to sit down and talk this over with my wife then this is a whole other matter. The situation is your wife is dying and not coherent. You must pick your wife or child. What do you do?




I pick the baby since I have no doubt that would be my wife's choice.


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## Thanatos (Mar 7, 2007)

Double Barrel BB said:


> So tell me, which is more evil, killing your wife or killing your child?
> 
> 
> 
> DB BB



This sentence that you wrote is my what I am telling you. How CAN you choose? Either way you are picking one life over another. So you are going to kill one or the other. If it is evil to love my wife then so be it. I cant replace her, but we can try to have more kids or adopt.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 7, 2007)

Thanatos said:


> This sentence that you wrote is my what I am telling you. How CAN you choose? Either way you are picking one life over another. So you are going to kill one or the other. If it is evil to love my wife then so be it. I cant replace her, but we can try to have more kids or adopt.



So you would sacrifice your wife's life to kill you and hers Baby?

Maybe you need to talk with your wife and ask her before the situation comes about and see which one she would choose. That way you know you have done what your wife would have wanted....

I can't even imagine what I would go through if this ever happened to me, but I have already asked my wife if this situation ever happened. She and I agreed that the Baby's life is more important than either of ours.

During this entire discussion this verse has been ringing in my head:

John 15:13
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." KJV

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 7, 2007)

greene_dawg said:


> It was a hypothetical question and you didn't answer it but I'll assume from your response that you'd not pay much attention to the doctors God given ability to diagnose your daughter correctly and let God's will run it's course. I agree that in the example that the baby is innocent but so is the daughter.



Hypothetical? You posted it and I answered it.

Doctors are not aways right, they are humans just like you and me. You put your faith in the Doc, I will put my faith in God.

2 wrongs do not make you right.

DB BB


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## No. GA. Mt. Man (Mar 7, 2007)

My son in law's grandfather had Lou Geherig's (sp) disease and had to go on life support. The doctor advised the family to take him off the next morning. Denny prayed with his wife about it and told her that when God was through with him he'd take him home. His wife refused to have him taken off and he came out of it and lived about 3 yrs. after that. One morning his wife was fixing breakfast and God did just as Denny said God took him home. Denny just drifted off and died. God didn't need a bit of help getting ol Denny home.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 7, 2007)

greene_dawg said:


> I agree that in the example that the baby is innocent but so is the daughter.



When is the baby not innocent?


I believe the baby is always innocent.

DB BB


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## hunter_58 (Mar 7, 2007)

you guys could what if about anything.
What if there is no god.
what if there is no sin.
what if killing someone carried the same weight as saying a
swear word.
what if the sun doesn't shine tomorrow.
what if we just kill the babies and don't use birth control.
what if we kill only bad babies.
what if we only kill older non productive people.
what if we accept a sin simply because it might inconvenience us to avoid it.
what if your 16 year old is pregnant, but a mugger hits her and she loses the child. did you lose a grand child or just a piece of tissue.
what if we tried to let as many babies as possible have a chance at life.
what if god said thou shalt no kill except for the ugly fat ones.
what if a child is going to die of cancer at age 7. would you abort them to save yourself on the grocery bill. 
what if life is a test given by god. who do we allow to take this test?
while we are at it , what other sins may i side step with a what if?


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## greene_dawg (Mar 7, 2007)

DB - Enjoyed the conversation but I don't think we'll see each others perspective on this one. For the record, I am pro-life and think that the government has to keep some sort of handle on abortion because it involves a life that has no say so in the matter. But on most other things I'm able to separate what I think God would want ME to do for MY life and what I think the government should legislate upon others who may not share my beliefs. I'll take my church and state separately please.


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## Thanatos (Mar 7, 2007)

hunter_58 said:


> you guys could what if about anything.
> What if there is no god.
> what if there is no sin.
> what if killing someone carried the same weight as saying a
> ...



What if you added some thing constructive to this post?

 What is your stance on aborting children with 0% chance to live and who are mangled and suffering because of chromosome defects?


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## SBG (Mar 7, 2007)

Thanatos said:


> What if you added some thing constructive to this post?
> 
> What is your stance on aborting children with 0% chance to live and who are mangled and suffering because of chromosome defects?



No offense...but it seems that you are trying to throw out any scenario that helps you pigeon-hole this procedure...sorry, but I can't reveal anything to you other than what God has led me to.

Hope that you can come to some peace on the subject.


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## Thanatos (Mar 7, 2007)

SBG said:


> No offense...but it seems that you are trying to throw out any scenario that helps you pigeon-hole this procedure...sorry, but I can't reveal anything to you other than what God has led me to.
> 
> Hope that you can come to some peace on the subject.



I hope he does also! Please pray that gives me insight what he wants his will to be. For you all saying that God wants you to pick your baby over your wife, how do you know God does not want your wife to survive??? What if God destined some baby to be aborted by its mother. If God is in total control of every thing then God destined babies to be aborted! Are you guys getting what I am trying to say?


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## hunter_58 (Mar 7, 2007)

Thanatos said:


> What if you added some thing constructive to this post?
> 
> What is your stance on aborting children with 0% chance to live and who are mangled and suffering because of chromosome defects?



 thats a real mature response.  you can continue to justify any sin you want. Is  there any sin that you cant or wont try to justify, if so why ??? BTW 0% chance of living would be called a miscarriage. now answer my question???


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## greene_dawg (Mar 7, 2007)

Now Now Fellas...


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## Thanatos (Mar 7, 2007)

hunter_58 said:


> thats a real mature response.  you can continue to justify any sin you want. Is  there any sin that you cant or wont try to justify, if so why ??? BTW 0% chance of living would be called a miscarriage. now answer my question???



Your response before about the "what if" was just as mature as my response. These other guys are trying to help me understand their stance. Hunter58 i'm not trying to justify the sin. I know abortion is a sin for any reason. What i am saying is that I would "probably" choose my wife (who I loved for years) over my unborn child. It is a sin, i know this. So is lying, cheating, stealing, etc. I still want a response to how you can say God's will is for your child to live and your wife to die!?!?! You or I don't know his will. To think that you do because we are Christian is a sin in itself.


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## hunter_58 (Mar 7, 2007)

Thanatos said:


> Your response before about the "what if" was just as mature as my response. These other guys are trying to help me understand their stance. Hunter58 i'm not trying to justify the sin. I know abortion is a sin for any reason. What i am saying is that I would "probably" choose my wife (who I loved for years) over my unborn child. It is a sin, i know this. So is lying, cheating, stealing, etc. I still want a response to how you can say God's will is for your child to live and your wife to die!?!?! You or I don't know his will. To think that you do because we are Christian is a sin in itself.



I did not say that. you made that statement trying to make yourself feel better.  I said  the extreme [what ifs] was no justification for abortion, abortion is not one child with extreme circumstances. In the united states its in the hundreds of thousands per year. I'm sure a few have extreme circumstances, but by far most are only for convenience, post birth control

Here is my answer to your extreme abortion question, I believe god has enough common sense, heart, and love to understand that if a mothers life was at stake there would be no problem saving her life. If a gun man held your wife at gun point take him out, but to kill every body with in a half mile radius because a gunman held your wife at gun point would be wrong. 

 As far as your last statement or judgement goes, you don't, or every will answer to me, or any human, only yourself and your maker. mine is only personal opinion.


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## Crimson (Mar 8, 2007)

SBG said:


> The term "pro-abortion Christian" is an oxymoron.[/QUOTE
> 
> i am a christian, but the abortion issue is a non issue to me.  it is more of a question of "family values".
> 
> ...


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## Thanatos (Mar 8, 2007)

hunter_58 said:


> I did not say that. you made that statement trying to make yourself feel better.  I said  the extreme [what ifs] was no justification for abortion, abortion is not one child with extreme circumstances. In the united states its in the hundreds of thousands per year. I'm sure a few have extreme circumstances, but by far most are only for convenience, post birth control
> 
> Here is my answer to your extreme abortion question, I believe god has enough common sense, heart, and love to understand that if a mothers life was at stake there would be no problem saving her life. If a gun man held your wife at gun point take him out, but to kill every body with in a half mile radius because a gunman held your wife at gun point would be wrong.
> 
> As far as your last statement or judgement goes, you don't, or every will answer to me, or any human, only yourself and your maker. mine is only personal opinion.



This is a good post and I wish that you would have posted this first. I totally agree with you. I am pro-life. But government can not step in and tell me that I must loose my wife or make my young daughter have a baby that was forced upon her. My main point in this WHOLE debate is that the abortion is not a "yes" or "no" question. You would have to judge each case in itself. There might be 99% no, and then 1% yes. That 1% has to be taken into account. As we all must think, I pray that God never put me into this situation. If he does I hope that I can make the right decision that would bring the most glory to him!


----------



## SBG (Mar 8, 2007)

Crimson said:


> SBG said:
> 
> 
> > The term "pro-abortion Christian" is an oxymoron.[/QUOTE
> ...


----------



## Crimson (Mar 8, 2007)

SBG said:


> Crimson said:
> 
> 
> > Really? Can you provide the scriptures that you use to come to that conclusion.
> ...


----------



## Crimson (Mar 8, 2007)

look, i am more pro choice than pro life.  that is my stance.  i'll take the heat from you all day.  now i don't think abortion should be a form of birth control, but there are instances where i think it is okay.  if there were an instance where my wife and i had to make that choice, it is none of yours, nor anybody elses business.


----------



## SBG (Mar 8, 2007)

Crimson said:


> look, i am more pro choice than pro life.  that is my stance.  i'll take the heat from you all day.  now i don't think abortion should be a form of birth control, but there are instances where i think it is okay.  if there were an instance where my wife and i had to make that choice, it is none of yours, nor anybody elses business.




Hey...if it makes you feel good, do it. 

BTW, were you going to provide for everyone's edification the scriptures that you use to come to your belief?

Good luck with that family values thing.


----------



## Crimson (Mar 8, 2007)

SBG said:


> Hey...if it makes you feel good, do it.
> 
> BTW, were you going to provide for everyone's edification the scriptures that you use to come to your belief?
> 
> Good luck with that family values thing.



nope!!  this is my belief,  i don't know enough about the bible in the first place.

i don't need any luck with my "family value" thing.


----------



## SBG (Mar 8, 2007)

Crimson said:


> nope!!  this is my belief,  i don't know enough about the bible in the first place.



No time like the present to learn. It is every "christians" duty to study the Word.


----------



## matthewsman (Mar 8, 2007)

*No such thing as a pro-choice Christian*

No doubt about it Thanatos,save the child...You have to have kids to understand.I won't enter the debate with crackhead rapists examples or anything to that effect.None of us are perfect parents,or 100%worthy of parenting.God knows,we don't know..

The baby couldn't help it.No ifs, ands, or buts...

That's good enough for me....


----------



## hunter_58 (Mar 8, 2007)

Thanatos said:


> This is a good post and I wish that you would have posted this first. I totally agree with you. I am pro-life. But government can not step in and tell me that I must loose my wife or make my young daughter have a baby that was forced upon her. My main point in this WHOLE debate is that the abortion is not a "yes" or "no" question. You would have to judge each case in itself. There might be 99% no, and then 1% yes. That 1% has to be taken into account. As we all must think, I pray that God never put me into this situation. If he does I hope that I can make the right decision that would bring the most glory to him!


 how about a compromise where the 1% is taken care of but also the other 99% doesn't pay the price. 
I am pro life. I would not want a judge telling my 16 year old daughter she can have an abortion. leaving her     mother and myself in the dark. I would be very upset with the judge and the doctor. abortion should be outlawed except in cases of rape, incest, or mothers life in danger. but not as birth control, or quality control, this would save the other 99%.  
I hope your wife and/ or any other women never has a problem like you described. I talked to my hunting buddy today, he and his wife are both doctors, he explained that this problem would be extremely rare.


----------



## greene_dawg (Mar 8, 2007)

"abortion should be outlawed except in cases of rape, incest, or mothers life in danger. but not as birth control, or quality control"

I think this is his view on it as well. I think his frustration comes from some stating that if you think that there is ever a good reason for abortion then you are not a Christian.


----------



## hunter_58 (Mar 8, 2007)

Thanatos said:


> What if you added some thing constructive to this post?
> 
> greene dawg, you are probably right .BUT i never said any of those things to him, not even close. My reply #105 was not even addressed  to him. After his above reply , which i thought was very rude,  my other replies were, but only asking and answering questions, with a little spark.
> 
> Discussion with, and respect of other people, is a two way street.   people may learn they have some common ground with others.


----------



## Crimson (Mar 8, 2007)

SBG said:


> No time like the present to learn. It is every "christians" duty to study the Word.



i was wondering why you intalized the word christian?


----------



## Baby Bear (Jun 3, 2007)

Not because of this thread,  but I just wanted to say that my view point has changed from past post that I have made on this thread. 

It is our duty to protect the ones that can not protect themselves. 

Jeff


----------



## hunter_58 (Jun 3, 2007)

Baby Bear said:


> Not because of this thread,  but I just wanted to say that my view point has changed from past post that I have made on this thread.
> 
> It is our duty to protect the ones that can not protect themselves.
> 
> Jeff



This is good to hear!!!!


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Sep 24, 2008)

RJ,

This was the thread I was talking about...

DB BB


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 24, 2008)

It's worded incorrectly.  I am not "pro-abortion".  I think that termination of a pregnancy, (or abortion) is an acceptable, albeit, excruciating, decision if the mother's life is in danger.

No one who wants to keep a child would make that decision unless it were medically necessary.  In that case, who's life is more valuable?  It's an unanswerable question.

Abortions of convenience are an entirely different matter IMO.


----------



## PWalls (Sep 24, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> It's worded incorrectly.  I am not "pro-abortion".  I think that termination of a pregnancy, (or abortion) is an acceptable, albeit, excruciating, decision if the mother's life is in danger.
> 
> No one who wants to keep a child would make that decision unless it were medically necessary.  In that case, who's life is more valuable?  It's an unanswerable question.
> 
> Abortions of convenience are an entirely different matter IMO.



Abortion is killing a child before they are born. That is plain and simple. Regardless of reason, that is the definition.

Therefore, if you have any reason to support killing a baby prior to it being born, then you support abortion. Maybe in your belief or mind there is justification in extreme circumstances. But again, doesn't matter it is still killing a child before birth and is therefore abortion.

So, if you would support an abortion for any reason whatsoever, then you are pro-abortion. You may have personal convictions on to the degree in which you support it, but you support it none-the-less.


----------



## rjcruiser (Sep 24, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> RJ,
> 
> This was the thread I was talking about...
> 
> DB BB





Huntinfool said:


> It's worded incorrectly.  I am not "pro-abortion".  I think that termination of a pregnancy, (or abortion) is an acceptable, albeit, excruciating, decision if the mother's life is in danger.
> 
> No one who wants to keep a child would make that decision unless it were medically necessary.  In that case, who's life is more valuable?  It's an unanswerable question.
> 
> Abortions of convenience are an entirely different matter IMO.



I would agree with HuntinFool.  And I know that it is something that I pray I never have to deal with.  I also wouldn't hold it against anyone who would have a baby be born and the mother die rather than the other way around.  Again, I don't think that that is an area of Principal specificied in the Bible, but one that the Lord will give you and your spouse comfort in whichever way you decide.

I will add that I believe any and all babies, born and unborn that are killed or die for any reason are immediately united with Christ in Heaven.  There are several reason's for this, and I think the most scripturally compelling is the example of David and Bathsheeba's first born son.  This brings comfort to my soul and should to yours as well.


----------



## rjcruiser (Sep 24, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Abortion is killing a child before they are born. That is plain and simple. Regardless of reason, that is the definition.
> 
> Therefore, if you have any reason to support killing a baby prior to it being born, then you support abortion. Maybe in your belief or mind there is justification in extreme circumstances. But again, doesn't matter it is still killing a child before birth and is therefore abortion.
> 
> So, if you would support an abortion for any reason whatsoever, then you are pro-abortion. You may have personal convictions on to the degree in which you support it, but you support it none-the-less.



I don't agree.  That is like saying someone who is in favor of capital punishment is pro-murder.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 24, 2008)

PWalls said:


> So, if you would support an abortion for any reason whatsoever, then you are pro-abortion. You may have personal convictions on to the degree in which you support it, but you support it none-the-less.



Let me add this question.  I asked it in another thread today.  You tell me that we made the wrong decision...Here's what I posted.



and what would you say to the mother who will die if the pregnancy isn't aborted?

How about this one for a problem?  My wife was pregnant with an ectopic pregancy (tubal).  Conception had occurred, the baby was growing with a heartbeat.  However, if the baby had been allowed to continue growing in that tube, it would have ruptured and she would have eventually died.  Obviously, the pregnancy was not viable...the baby could not survive in the tube....the baby and the mother would have eventually died.  But you are telling me you don't support the decision to take a shot to terminate that pregnancy to save the mother's life? 

Like I said, there was a conception.  You can accuse me of whatever you want to.  But my priorities are this and in this order:

God
Wife
Children

I love them all.  But I love my wife more than I love my children.  She is flesh of my flesh.  If I make a decision that means she dies...I die with her.  She is more important than my kids. 

It was an agonizing decision, but not one that I had to think about for very long.  You get in that situation bud...you'll think twice before you jump on the condemnation bandwagon.

If you want to call me pro-abortion, I honestly don't give a flip.  If you're assertion is that I cannot hold the position that I hold and be a Christian, well that's just silly.


----------



## dawg2 (Sep 24, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> I don't agree.  That is like saying someone who is in favor of capital punishment is pro-murder.



No it  isn't.  It is still pro-abortion.  If you speed trying get someone to the hospital, you are a speeder.  If you poach wild game to feed your family you are still a poacher.  If you steal because you are poor and need medicine, you are still a thief.  It is that simple.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 24, 2008)

If you kill someone in self defense, are you a murderer???


Or are you simply a killer.  Having killed someone and being a murderer, although the same act, are two entirely different things.  You get my point?  Murderer implies something that isn't there...as does pro-abortion in this case.


----------



## rjcruiser (Sep 24, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> No it  isn't.  It is still pro-abortion.  If you speed trying get someone to the hospital, you are a speeder.  If you poach wild game to feed your family you are still a poacher.  If you steal because you are poor and need medicine, you are still a thief.  It is that simple.



So then should we convict the person that throws the switch on the electric chair for murder? or the doctor who gives the shot for the lethal injection?

I'm just curious.  Like what HuntinFool posted earlier.  What if both the mother and the baby were going to die?  What would you do in that case?


----------



## dawg2 (Sep 24, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> So then should we convict the person that throws the switch on the electric chair for murder? or the doctor who gives the shot for the lethal injection?
> 
> I'm just curious.  Like what HuntinFool posted earlier.  What if both the mother and the baby were going to die?  What would you do in that case?



Here you go.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01046b.htm


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 24, 2008)

Wow...that's just fantastic.  

_"Even if an ectopic child should live to maturity, it cannot be born by the natural channel -- but, once it has become viable, it may be saved"_

FYI...only in the very rarest of circumstances can an embryo become viable while in a tube.  It is nearly physically possible.  So, if we know that this statement is false, I'm just going to let you follow the logic on the rest.

Ectopic births are rare...one in 60 million kind of rare and I am being generous to your point here.  Nearly ALL physicians will tell you that an ectopic CANNOT survive at all!  I only throw that 1:60,000,000 number out there to concede that, yes, it has actually happened before.

*Do we force 60 million women to die so that one child may live? *

I'm glad that some of you guys allow other people to read the Bible for you.  It's sad to me that, when faced with a tough question, some of you go search for what your particular denomination or faith has to say on the matter as the authority for what is right and wrong.  

As I said before, Dawg....let your wife get in that position and the you go pull up an internet site and post it on her hospital bed for her...

I'm sure that will make her feel much better.  I'm sure the agony of a ruptured tube and severe internal bleeding will just disappear since there is a "decree" on the matter.  I'm sure that will make her feel much better while she and that fetus are dieing.


----------



## PWalls (Sep 24, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> I don't agree.  That is like saying someone who is in favor of capital punishment is pro-murder.



Uhhh. Not even close on comparison. Capital Punishment is exactly that. Punishing a criminal. Murder is killing someone in cold blood.

Even if you have "altruistic" reasons for having an unborn child killed (what else do you call it?), that is still abortion. If you agree with abortion even if for altruistic reasons, then you are pro-abortion. 

Your comparison would be better served to say that if Hitler had been murdered before he got into office, then you would be pro-murder because of what it saved. An altruistic reason to be sure, but still murder.

Same case here.


----------



## PWalls (Sep 24, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> It was an agonizing decision, but not one that I had to think about for very long.  You get in that situation bud...you'll think twice before you jump on the condemnation bandwagon.
> 
> If you want to call me pro-abortion, I honestly don't give a flip.  If you're assertion is that I cannot hold the position that I hold and be a Christian, well that's just silly.



First off, I did not accuse you of anything. Please take your "anger" somewhere else. I also did not "condemn" you. I merely pointed out that if you are in favor of abortion for *whatever* reason, then you are pro-abortion. That is simple definition. Your "giving a flip" also doesn't change that. Also, I never said you were not a Christian or even implied that. Maybe you should take the chip off your shoulder or something and quit biting off my head for something I clearly did not imply or even suggest. I am truly sorry you had to make that decision and as a father of three and married to the same woman for 13 years, I can empathize with the pain you must have felt and still feel. I have not nor will ever condemn an abortion like you went through. That was a test from God. Whether or not you passed it or failed it is entirely between you and him.


----------



## rjcruiser (Sep 24, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Even if you have "altruistic" reasons for having an unborn child killed (what else do you call it?), that is still abortion.



Ummm...I'd call it saving someone's life

Here's another question for you, a man has a gun to your wife's head.  He says he's going to pull the trigger.  You have the opportunity to take him out.  What would you do?


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 24, 2008)

Your underlying pre-supposition is that you MUST be 100% pro-life to be pro-life. 

If you turn that around, then you must be 100% pro-abortion to be pro-abortion.  

Both assertions are ridiculous.  I do not support abortion except in the case that it endangers my wife.  

As I stated before:

God
Wife
Children

If you have it in a different order, then your priorities are out of line....and this time that's not my opinion.  That's a fact.


----------



## dawg2 (Sep 24, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Let me add this question.  I asked it in another thread today.  You tell me that we made the wrong decision...Here's what I posted.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I didn't see this earlier.


----------



## dawg2 (Sep 24, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Ummm...I'd call it saving someone's life
> 
> Here's another question for you, a man has a gun to your wife's head.  He says he's going to pull the trigger.  You have the opportunity to take him out.  What would you do?



Shoot him in the face and not even blink.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 24, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Shoot him in the face and not even blink.



I understand the difference.  The child is not an agressor.  That does not change the fact that I am to save my wife before I save anyone else IMO.


----------



## PWalls (Sep 24, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Ummm...I'd call it saving someone's life
> 
> Here's another question for you, a man has a gun to your wife's head.  He says he's going to pull the trigger.  You have the opportunity to take him out.  What would you do?



Yep. Saving the woman's life. AND killing the baby. So, call it saving someone's life as long as you recognize that you are killing another.

Your second paragraph is ridiculous and not even a comparison on what we are talking about here. The CRIMINAL is committing a crime and endangering my wife's life. If I have the opportunity, trigger would be pulled. How can you compare a CRIMINAL act in this case with an innocent unborn baby?


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 24, 2008)

I'll ask this again....

If one WILL die, who's life takes priority?  Your wife or your child?

Or how about this.  Do nothing and they both die.  Do something and only one dies.  Which is the better option?


----------



## rjcruiser (Sep 24, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Shoot him in the face and not even blink.



Wow...we agree on something...I'd do the same thing.  

But by this argument of all or nothing, you are then in support of murder.  Also, if I understand correctly what I'm reading, the St. Thomas and the Catholic church doesn't like it either.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07441a.htm


----------



## PWalls (Sep 24, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Your underlying pre-supposition is that you MUST be 100% pro-life to be pro-life.
> 
> If you turn that around, then you must be 100% pro-abortion to be pro-abortion.
> 
> ...



Pro - means "for". Anti - means "against".

You are the one with the definition problem. If for any reason you are "for" an abortion, then you can, by definition, be classified as pro-abortion. 

My priorities are in line. Thanks.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 24, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> But by this argument of all or nothing, you are then in support of murder.



or "pro-murder" if you like.  After all, if you support something in one instance, you support it across the board, right?


----------



## dawg2 (Sep 24, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Wow...we agree on something...I'd do the same thing.
> 
> But by this argument of all or nothing, you are then in support of murder.  Also, if I understand correctly what I'm reading, the St. Thomas and the Catholic church doesn't like it either.
> 
> http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07441a.htm



I think you misread....3rd paragraph:

_For the protection of one's own or another's life, limb, chastity, or valuables of some moment, it is agreed on all sides that it is lawful for anyone to repel violence with violence, even to the point of taking away the life of the unjust assailant, provided always that in so doing the limits of a blameless defence be not exceeded._


----------



## PWalls (Sep 24, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> But by this argument of all or nothing, you are then in support of murder.



Uhhh. Nope.

MURDER is a criminal act. Saving your wife's life would fall under self-defense in the action you described.


----------



## dawg2 (Sep 24, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Uhhh. Nope.
> 
> MURDER is a criminal act. Saving your wife's life would fall under self-defense in the action you described.



Maybe we should pitch in and buy him a dictionary....he's having trouble with definitions of certain words.


----------



## PWalls (Sep 24, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> or "pro-murder" if you like.  After all, if you support something in one instance, you support it across the board, right?



Expend a little more energy into finding a better comparison. Anyone should be easily able to see that his original scenario is not "murder" and is a straw house argument at best.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 24, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Expend a little more energy into finding a better comparison. Anyone should be easily able to see that his original scenario is not "murder" and is a straw house argument at best.



How about pro-killing.  Would that suit you better?  Would you be considered pro-killing?

If that's the case, then by definition, you'd also be pro-abortion.

I'm making silly comparisons to combat silly assertions.  Seems a pretty good fit.


----------



## PWalls (Sep 24, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> I'll ask this again....
> 
> If one WILL die, who's life takes priority?  Your wife or your child?
> 
> Or how about this.  Do nothing and they both die.  Do something and only one dies.  Which is the better option?



No one can make that decision until they are presented with it in real life. I can not answer it. Any answer I give would be possibly wrong.

Sitting here in my chair at work, I might say no and leave it in God's hands. Sitting in the emergency room where I have to make a spot decision, I might say yes and to save my wife.

I do not know if I have the faith to leave that decision in God's hand and the possible outcome. But, I will not resolutely say without a shadow of a doubt that I would not do it either.


----------



## PWalls (Sep 24, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> How about pro-killing.  Would that suit you better?  Would you be consideref pro-killing?
> 
> If that's the case, then by definition, you'd also be pro-abortion.



I'll help you out.

Call it pro-self defense and then your analogy is better.

I just answered your question (or actually didn't) in the previous post.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 24, 2008)

"Killing: cause to die; put to death, usually intentionally or knowingly"

By your original logic, supporting killing in any fashion means you are pro-killing.  So since you support killing in this instance, are you pro-abortion?  You supported it in one case.

So we're on the same page!  Supporting something in a single instance does not make you pro- anything.


----------



## dawg2 (Sep 24, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> By your original logic, supporting killing in any fashion means you are pro-killing and because killing means to cause to die or put to death, then you are also pro-abortion.



No, silly analogy.  Vegetarians are killers too, but they don't eat meat.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 24, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> No, silly analogy.  Vegetarians are killers too, but they don't eat meat.



Killing is killing, right????  Or are you saying there are extenuating circumstances?  

No, there couldn't possible circumstances that warrant a re-think of a global position could there?

I'll be done here.  I've made my point and made it pretty well.  You guys know what "pro-abortion" connotates these days.  Whether the technical definition is the same or not is irrelevant.  

The "pro-abortion" label implies what you know it implies.  Ask me the question by the technical definition?  Then, yes, a person can be a Christian and be "pro-abortion" and not contradict the will of God.


----------



## dawg2 (Sep 24, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Killing is killing, right????  Or are you saying there are extenuating circumstances?
> 
> No, killing is not killing.  Driving down th eroad and randomly shooting people is wrong.  Protecting your wife from a home invader is expected.
> 
> ...


see above


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 24, 2008)

Pro-life.  That is what I am.  I am pro-life in every case.  I do not support aborting a pregancy except that the circumstances threaten my WIFE'S LIFE.  

In either case, I support life.  In one case, a hard decision has to be made.  But I Pro-my wife's life in that case.  In every other case (i.e. for convenience reasons), there is not a decision to make for me.  The baby lives if it does not threaten the life of my wife.

Here's the new word for ya.  How's "Pro-Wife" sound?


----------



## PWalls (Sep 24, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Pro-life.  That is what I am.  I am pro-life in every case.  I do not support aborting a pregancy except that the circumstances threaten my WIFE'S LIFE.
> 
> In either case, I support life.  In one case, a hard decision has to be made.  But I Pro-my wife's life in that case.  In every other case (i.e. for convenience reasons), there is not a decision to make for me.  The baby lives if it does not threaten the life of my wife.
> 
> Here's the new word for ya.  How's "Pro-Wife" sound?



What about someone else's wife?


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 24, 2008)

Why would it make a difference who's wife it was?


----------



## PWalls (Sep 24, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Why would it make a difference who's wife it was?



So really "wife" is not the line for you. It would be better to say "if the pregnancy endangers the mother's life" then you would be pro-abortion.


----------



## dawg2 (Sep 24, 2008)

PWalls said:


> So really "wife" is not the line for you. It would be better to say "if the pregnancy endangers the mother's life" then you would be pro-abortion.



That is what I usually refer to it as.


----------



## rjcruiser (Sep 24, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> I think you misread....3rd paragraph:
> 
> _For the protection of one's own or another's life, limb, chastity, or valuables of some moment, it is agreed on all sides that it is lawful for anyone to repel violence with violence, even to the point of taking away the life of the unjust assailant, provided always that in so doing the limits of a blameless defence be not exceeded._



Cmon Dawg...your catholic theology is slipping a little bit...you need to read a little deeper into the 3rd paragraph.



			
				NewAdvent Website said:
			
		

> St. Thomas is careful to say that even in self-defence it is unlawful to kill another directly, that is, to intend immediately the death of that other.



Maybe we need to get you some reading glasses


----------



## rjcruiser (Sep 24, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> I think you misread....3rd paragraph:
> 
> _For the protection of one's own or another's life, limb, chastity, or valuables of some moment, it is agreed on all sides that it is lawful for anyone to repel violence with violence, even to the point of taking away the life of the unjust assailant, provided always that in so doing the limits of a blameless defence be not exceeded._





PWalls said:


> So really "wife" is not the line for you. It would be better to say "if the pregnancy endangers the mother's life" then you would be pro-abortion.



I'd say pro-mother might be the better term, while you'rs isn't pro-life, but pro-baby in this circumstance (since you place the importance of the life on the baby, rather than the mother).

Seems like this is one where neither side is going to give up their arguement.


----------



## Banjo (Sep 24, 2008)

> If one WILL die, who's life takes priority? Your wife or your child?



Huntin...

Your wife's life takes priority.  I don't know if it will mean anything to you, but I think you all did the right thing.

We are to protect life...in this case your wife's.  Ectopic pregnancies kill both the wife and the mother. The baby could not have survived and grown in the fallopian tubes...

I am sorry that you and your wife had to make this decision.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 24, 2008)

Not Pro-Abortion Dawg....as rj said...

Pro-Mother (if her life is in danger of course )

But, in any case, Pro-Wife.  Pro-My Wife...Pro-Your Wife.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 24, 2008)

Banjo said:


> Huntin...
> 
> Your wife's life takes priority.  I don't know if it will mean anything to you, but I think you all did the right thing.
> 
> ...



I sincerely appreciate that Banjo.  You and I have lots of differences.  But I'm grateful that at least you see my point here.

As you said, we are to protect life....and in that case it was the mother's life that was being protected.  I'm not trying to make this about one single instanct.  Not trying to make this about me.  I am simply giving that as an example. 

Sometimes there ARE shades of grey...


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## ambush80 (Sep 24, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Sometimes there ARE shades of grey...




That's the most profound thing I've heard so far.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 24, 2008)

Although I am pro-life, I would have done as you Huntinfool.  I think you made the "only" decision you could have made.


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## dawg2 (Sep 24, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Cmon Dawg...your catholic theology is slipping a little bit...you need to read a little deeper into the 3rd paragraph.



I did.  Did you?  I am clear in my conscience.


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## jmharris23 (Sep 24, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> Although I am pro-life, I would have done as you Huntinfool.  I think you made the "only" decision you could have made.



Its the decision I would have made. My wife is the dearest and best thing thats ever happened to me. If I had to choose between my wife and child I don't know then I am choosing her.

I am all for standing for my convictions, but ya'll can call me what you want on that one.


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## farmasis (Sep 25, 2008)

I know it is trendy to say life begins at conception. But, not in all cases, in my opinion.

Pro-life is being an advocate for life. Killing or muder is the taking of INNOCENT HUMAN life. Capital punishment, self defense, etc. should not factor into this conversation. 

I consider myself pro-life.

In the instance of ectopic pregnancies there are two lives in jeopardy, life is chosen by ending that pregnancy. The only outcome of not ending that pregnancy is death for both. Did life begin at conception in this case, or death?

There is also something called molar pregnancies. Also referred to as an 'empty egg', you have a nonviable embryo proliferate into a cancerous type growth. Conception occured, but a fetus will not result. Most will end on their own naturally with little negative consequences, but sometimes can grow and spread like cancer into a tumor called a choriocarcinoma. Removal of the tissue is recommended. I use the word tissue on purpose. Was life created at this conception? I say not.

So, when does life begin? I say after implantation of a normal zygote in the uterine wall. It doesn't make good sound bytes, but that is my honest assessment. 

Most other pregnancies will not put the mother's life in dire jeopardy. There is a risk with any pregnancy, however.

Now, in the rare cases of rape, incest, etc. I would applaud any woman strong enough to carry that child to full term and give it up for adoption or to keep it and raise it. God would most assuredly honor her. There can be no greater honor given to a woman that strong. For the women who would not be able to handle such an ordeal, could we blame her for ending it? I could not. If something happened like that to my wife, I would be forced to fully support her in her decision whatever that would be.

What if the fertilization or the implantation of that zygote in those rare cases could be prevented? In lue of my stance that life begins after successful implantation of a normal zygote in the utereus would prevention of that implantation be murder? I guess that can be debated and I can be flogged for my beliefs supporting 'Plan B' in these rare cases, but there is not much difference in this and some other contraceptives such as birth control pills (because that is what it is at a higher dose.) Granted, it probably does more as an emergency contraceptive in preventing implantation and not fertilization.

A woman raped who cannot bring herself to carrying the child has two options. Prevention of implantation, or removal afterwards.

So, is it 'less murderous' to prevent implantation in the first 72 hours after contraception when the embryo has no nerve fibers, no heart beat, no brain waves, etc or to remove a growing fetus afterwards when it does in an abortion? In lue of my arguments above, I still consider myself pro-life promoting this technique as the best alternative in these rare circumstances when the mother cannot bring herself to carry the child to full term.

Flog away.


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## LLove (Sep 25, 2008)

i think this.. 



SBG said:


> The term "pro-abortion Christian" is an oxymoron.



is your answer. 


IMO it sounds like you're only thinking of the Christians who go to church every sunday and wednesday and do everything they can to be christian like..
i don't think you're taking into account the people who believe themselves to be christian just because they believe in God even tho they don't attend church/mass. A lot of people who go out drinking and partying and that swear and do other things to make you assume they're not christians, still personally believe that they are.



thinking of it that way, i can easily see 50% of "christians" saying that they're pro-abortion.


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## Swamp Buggy (Sep 25, 2008)

Where in the Bible does it say that if one supports abortion then they are not Christian? If one supports the death penalty, (a law and punishment by man) not a Christian? One that has been divorced, committed adultery, pre-marital sex, used the Lords name in Vane? are all these not Christians? or are we masking our own morality's with a bible cover?


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## ambush80 (Sep 25, 2008)

Swamp Buggy said:


> Where in the Bible does it say that if one supports abortion then they are not Christian? If one supports the death penalty, (a law and punishment by man) not a Christian? One that has been divorced, committed adultery, pre-marital sex, used the Lords name in Vane?_ are all these not Christians? or are we masking our own morality's with a bible cover?_



Yes.


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## farmasis (Sep 25, 2008)

Swamp Buggy said:


> Where in the Bible does it say that if one supports abortion then they are not Christian? If one supports the death penalty, (a law and punishment by man) not a Christian? One that has been divorced, committed adultery, pre-marital sex, used the Lords name in Vane? are all these not Christians? or are we masking our own morality's with a bible cover?


 

Great points. A sin is a sin.

Nonetheless, Christians who do support murder as a choice will be held responsible for those murders.

11 Deliver _those who_ are drawn toward death, 
And hold back _those_ stumbling to the slaughter. 
 12 If you say, “Surely we did not know this,” 
Does not He who weighs the hearts consider _it?_
He who keeps your soul, does He _not_ know _it?_
And will He _not_ render to _each_ man according to his deeds? (Proverbs 24)


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## Swamp Buggy (Sep 26, 2008)

"Nonetheless, Christians who do support murder as a choice will be held responsible for those murders."


Farmasis, That is my point. A sin is a sin! So if as some believe that if one supports Pro-Life they are not Christian because it is a sin, then if any of us sin then we are not Christian?


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