# Concerning OT law



## hobbs27 (Jul 3, 2012)

Matthew 5:17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

Did Jesus do what He [came here] to do? We all know that John the Baptist was the last prophet, but what about the law? What happened with it?

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you,Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law,till all be fulfilled.

Till heaven and earth pass.....hmmm. Jesus came here to fulfill this, did he not? Do we still practice the Law to every little jot and tittle? NO, not only do we not, nor do Orthodox Jews of these days, so we must have a new heaven and earth....so how could this be?

Well ole John was in the spirit one day and saw a little something he wrote down in Revelations 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Could it not be the new heaven and new earth is spiritually{since John was in the spirit} The New Covenant of Grace ?The sea he speaks of seperates earth...The Gospel is spread all over the earth,The law was blocked by boundaries.."a sea".The Law is replaced now! Its what Jesus said he came to do, yet until this happened the law was still in place.
I would like to hear from anyone that thinks Jesus has not fulfilled the law, and if the law is fulfilled then we must have a new heaven and new earth.
In the OT on earth one would die in the hope and knowledge that their savior was coming and would free them from paradise or abrahams bosom. Old Earth, Old Heaven

The NT we die saved, believing in our savior that came already and died for our sins....I don't know for sure if we go straight to heaven but I do know we will be in the presence of Jesus and I'm reminded of Stephen and when he looked up he saw Jesus STANDING at the right hand of the Father.....Kind of makes me think Stephen got a standing ovation and welcoming in, since all other scripture has Jesus sitting at the right hand of the Father. New Heaven, New Earth.


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## Israel (Jul 4, 2012)

I don't rightly understand your question.
Are you asking "Do we still practice the Law to every little jot and tittle?
Implying that if we do not...it has passed? Who ever fulfilled the righteous requirements of the law  except Jesus? Its honorableness has never depended upon man's execution, but alone on the hand that gave it.

Before or after Jesus being manifested to us...the law remains "holy, just , and good", does it not?
Another question might be : Since the law is spiritual, but unregenerate man is carnal, does anyone even begin to understand the law apart from the revelation of God through his spirit? Did anyone, ever, even Moses who "mediated" it, understand it rightly?
I know this may generate more questions...but I see them as necessary and most likely, beneficial.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 4, 2012)

Israel, for the Law to be enforced or upheld it required a high priest to cast judgement, and many times the judgement was stoning by the people.
 Jesus asked for us to look inside and the one without sin cast the stone.That leaves none.
 When the economy and the city of Israel was destroyed in 70 AD it was Jesus' judgement day on Israel, and his covenant fully came in the clouds of glory on the whole world that whosoever believeth would have everlasting life. The law was fulfilled, torn away from its own authority as the high priests had no holy city, no valuable belongings, no authority!
 It is in the hands of Jesus now, The King of Kings, and Lord of Lords! My Savior!


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## hummerpoo (Jul 4, 2012)

16.  "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
 17.  "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
 18.  "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
 19.  "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others {to do} the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches {them,} he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20. "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses {that} of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

After Jesus gives us the instruction that we are to glorify God by the life that we live in this world (or alternatively, to teach the world to glorify God by our example) (vs.16), He then explains that He has come to show us how that is to be accomplished.  That being, not by doing away with what has been given before, but by fulfilling it [“Gk pleroo” (fulfill: to develop the potentiality of)] (vs. 17).  That which God has decreed for His creation will not change until that creation has completed its purpose [“Gk ginomai” come to pass; complete] (vs.18).

He who ignores the decree, and especially one who teaches such; well, vs. 19 needs no paraphrase.
You have an example in the scribes and Pharisees of how it is not to be done (vs.20).

In vs. 21 and following we have examples of the Law properly fulfilled (developed to its potential); “Thou shalt not kill”, “Thou shalt not commit adultery”, etc.  It is not difficult to understand the whole of Christs' mission in this context.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 4, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> 16.  "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
> 17.  "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
> 18.  "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law [until all is accomplished.
> 19.  "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others {to do} the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches {them,} he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
> ...



To the underlined, we must understand who Jesus was speaking to...it was not us today, it was to a people of that time, a time in which the law still stood and they were still under the old covenant. Jesus had yet to fulfill and to Judge Israel.

To the words in blue, all was accomplished in 70 AD when God unleashed his wrath on Israel and the parousia of Christ came.

I do not deny Murder and Adultery are sins, but the "Judicial System of the Old Covenant Jew" has been replaced with "Grace" and a New Covenant that is Jesus Christ, Victor of the Grave, and King of Kings, Lord of Lords, and most importantly to me, My Savior!
 The Kingdom of God is with us today.


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## hummerpoo (Jul 4, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> To the underlined, we must understand who Jesus was speaking to...it was not us today, it was to a people of that time, a time in which the law still stood and they were still under the old covenant. Jesus had yet to fulfill and to Judge Israel.
> 
> To the words in blue, all was accomplished in 70 AD when God unleashed his wrath on Israel and the parousia of Christ came.
> 
> ...



I'm afraid that dispensations quickly become more complicated than my limited abilities can grasp.  My simple view is that the law was given to Israel to glorify God in the world and that what Jesus did was a continuation of that same thing.

Many more gifted than I have argued our differing views of Mat. 24.  My view tends to rest on:

 36.  "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
 37.  "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
 38.  "For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
39. and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Surely there will be no difficulty recognizing events comparable to the flood.


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## Michael F. Gray (Jul 4, 2012)

The Law given by God to Moses was for the dispensation that bears it's name, "LAW." When Jesus Christ, God's spotless, sinless lamb, born of a virgin, paid the price for our sin on Calvary's cross the dispensation of LAW ended, and ushered in the dispensation of "GRACE." The next dispensation will be JUDGMENT. The Bible in Revelation refers to two judgments, the Great White Throne jusgment for those that have not been redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb.  A second judgment called the judgment seat of Christ is reserved for those whose name were written in the Book of Life when they were "saved". All whose name are not found in the BOOK are named in the books, which list every sin for which the lost must give account.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 4, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> I'm afraid that dispensations quickly become more complicated than my limited abilities can grasp.  My simple view is that the law was given to Israel to glorify God in the world and that what Jesus did was a continuation of that same thing.
> 
> Many more gifted than I have argued our differing views of Mat. 24.  My view tends to rest on:
> 
> ...



I'm sure for those that were there in those days up to 70 AD there was no difficulty recognizing it.
 Remember Jesus said Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you,This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

What were all those things he had just talked about...there was a tribulation and the coming of the son of man....Are those people He was speaking to still alive? Nope! But in the judgement day that fell on Israel and the parousia {Coming} of Christ happened in 70AD in those peoples generation..Matthew 24 fulfilled by the destruction of Israel by the wrath of God and the coming of Christ that happened in 70 AD, completing all OT prophecy and bringing the kingdom of God to all the world in its completion.


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## hummerpoo (Jul 4, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> I'm sure for those that were there in those days up to 70 AD there was no difficulty recognizing it.
> Remember Jesus said Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you,This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
> 
> What were all those things he had just talked about...there was a tribulation and the coming of the son of man....Are those people He was speaking to still alive? Nope! But in the judgement day that fell on Israel and the parousia {Coming} of Christ happened in 70AD in those peoples generation..Matthew 24 fulfilled by the destruction of Israel by the wrath of God and the coming of Christ that happened in 70 AD, completing all OT prophecy and bringing the kingdom of God to all the world in its completion.



I read all of the passages in which Matthew uses the word generation, and 1 Cor. 15, and Mat. 24-25, and all of the Sermon on the mount (looking at 5:17 as "fulfill" being to completion of OT prophecy) ...  “the parousia (coming) of Christ happened in 70AD”; just can't make it fit with everything else, I guess it's just over my head.


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## gtparts (Jul 4, 2012)

The  only thing accomplished by the Law (other than the fact that we learn we are not capable of keeping it) is to bring condemnation and death to man. 

Is it pointless now that Jesus has fulfilled it?

Absolutely not! It still serves to show us how far we fall short and how much we need a redeemer.

So, what did Christ accomplish (fulfill) by His sacrificial death?

He bore the punishment, the lawful penalty, of all mankind for their sin so that we would not have to do so. That is the very nature of what He fulfilled. He wiped the slate clean for all who believe on Him. We "did the crime", but He "did the time"!

Matt. 5:18 references another, different, fulfillment, that of Jesus' triumphant return for His own and Satan receives his just punishment along with the unbelieving.

The other thing that needs to be considered is that all of the OT law was condensed to just two by Christ when He answered the question, "What is the greatest law?"

Love God!
Love people!

Do these and you will have done all that the law ever really required.

Peace.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 4, 2012)

maybe this will help.I got this from wiki instead of a religous web site to help take away from bias.This event is the entire event Jesus was speaking of when he mentioned the end of the {world}...also the word world here is translated from the greek word "aeon which means age..so when he talks of the end of the world he is saying the end of an age.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(70)


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## Israel (Jul 4, 2012)

To all this I would also appeal for an understanding of these lines beyond your original posting... especially verse 19. 

Mat 5:17  Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 
Mat 5:18  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 
Mat 5:19  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 
Mat 5:20  For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.


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## hummerpoo (Jul 4, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> maybe this will help.......
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(70)



Sorry, no help.  I don't have the background necessary to glean facts from the writtings of a Jewish traitor trying to insure his future with the Romans.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 4, 2012)

Israel said:


> To all this I would also appeal for an understanding of these lines beyond your original posting especially verse 19.
> 
> Mat 5:17  Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
> Mat 5:18  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
> ...


       A Hobbs27 Commentary

Lets go back a bit further to 5:1-2 first.
And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

OK verse 1 and 2 establishes who Jesus is talking to and teaching, it is to his disciples.
Now to the content,
 verse 17. He did not come{to earth} to destroy the law, or the prophets he came to fulfill. We know John the Baptist was the last prophet and the Religous Jews did to him as they did the previous...they killed him.Now to the fulfilling of the Law.

Verse 18 content is- not the least thing in the law will change until heaven and earth have passed, and all is fulfilled...To me this says you either believe the law has not been fulfilled and Jesus failed...or you believe heaven and earth has passed and the law is fulfilled and Jesus did what he said he was going to do.

verse 19 content is- To his disciples The law is yet to be fulfilled, heaven and earth have not passed away as of yet. You are still under the law and you must obey the law, and you must not teach the law has been fulfuilled as yet, for the law teaches man they have a need for a savior.A savior that has come, but not completed his task in building his kingdom.
 Those that keep these laws until heaven and earth passes will reap the blessings of the kingdom of heaven.

Now,
 Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto privately, saying, Tell us when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

He continues on with an answer for a while telling them what they will see...not people some 2000 years later, and goes so far as to say in verse34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

I believe every word Jesus said, and I believe heaven and earth have passed, we are no longer under the law, but grace, and I believe the end of the world he was speaking of here was the destruction of Israel and the completion of the NT. Its the only logical explanation.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 4, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> Sorry, no help.  I don't have the background necessary to glean facts from the writtings of a Jewish traitor trying to insure his future with the Romans.



So you dont believe Israel was destroyed in 70 ad? The temple was toppled all but the western wall, and even the foundations of the temple were plowed up?


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## hummerpoo (Jul 5, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> So you dont believe Israel was destroyed in 70 ad? The temple was toppled all but the western wall, and even the foundations of the temple were plowed up?



No, I do not believe that the "earth" of Mat 5:18 is the temple or Judea.

Nor do I believe that Jesus failed in His assigned tasks.
I do believe that he explained the law to His disciples and to the Holy Nation (1Pet. 2) which is the Kingdom.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 5, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> No, I do not believe that the "earth" of Mat 5:18 is the temple or Judea.
> 
> Nor do I believe that Jesus failed in His assigned tasks.
> I do believe that he explained the law to His disciples and to the Holy Nation (1Pet. 2) which is the Kingdom.



So let us study Gods word and see what the heaven and earth is.

Deuteronomy 32:1, God is talking to Israel when He says: Give ear,O ye heavens,and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.

Verse 22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest he11-, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Above is God talking about burning up the entire earth? No. He is referring to Israel...going back a bit in chapter 28:49 we read the judgement of Israel that they could expect.

Isaiah 51:13 God said He had " stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth. Is this a literal heaven and earth? Nope. 
 Verse 16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

The literal earth had been created thousands of years before, so what could he be talking about here?He is talking about Zion...or "my people", or Israel.

So in Matthew 24:35 Jesus is talking about the passing away of Israel when He says heaven and earth shall pass.

I can show a few more places if need be where God refers to Israel as heaven and earth...the heavens being the government and the earth being the people.

All this has passed but Jesus word stands...Christ fulfilled the law, 70ad fulfilled the judgement on Israel, and His word still stands.


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## Israel (Jul 5, 2012)

Why would the assumption be that God is speaking only to Israel...because it is in the OT?

Funny...cause when I read those words:

Give ear,O ye heavens,and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.

 This is what I hear: 

Everything, everyone, everywhere, for all time...LISTEN UP!

I don't know that it's a matter of right or wrong...but that's what I hear.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 5, 2012)

Israel said:


> Why would the assumption be that God is speaking only to Israel...because it is in the OT?
> 
> Funny...cause when I read those words:
> 
> ...


 Interesting, maybe this verse will clear it up.


Isaiah 1:2-4
 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the Lord hath spoken,I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.
Blue is surely Israel, Gods chosen people of this time, same as ye heavens , and O earth is also Israel.


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## Israel (Jul 5, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> Interesting, maybe this verse will clear it up.
> 
> 
> Isaiah 1:2-4
> ...



I am just too simple...again...when I read in blue: 
I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.

You know what I hear? All my own ignorant pigheaded desire to go my own way revealed. I am undone for being rebellious against such grace.

I know I could sound contentious...but just so you may not have to frustrate yourself with trying to help me see who and what in particular God may be speaking to, I will tell you I have heard this "for myself"...which kinda goes as far back in the record to settle even everything that may come in between...

Gen 3:17  And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 
Gen 3:18  Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 
Gen 3:19  In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. 

I'm the guy who used to think the woman looked better than God. And I inherited, for that, precisely as told.

Thanks be to God for the last Adam...he got me outta that...but first he helped me see "I" was that man.


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## hummerpoo (Jul 5, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> So let us study Gods word and see what the heaven and earth is.
> 
> Deuteronomy 32:1, God is talking to Israel when He says: Give ear,O ye heavens,and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
> 
> ...



Israel, sorry for stepping on your post (#18), for some reason I didn't see yours until after I hit the go button.


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## Israel (Jul 5, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> Israel, sorry for stepping on your post, for some reason I didn't see yours until after I hit the go button.



Ha!...step on me? How funny is that? 

Man, I am far more in need of hearing the spirit in you to comfort me when I could easily be thrashing around in the brambles of crazy.

I got no point to make that could be diminished by anyone's addition...I'm just here playing catch up to what I have been convinced I have glimpsed of what truly is.
To know that I'm not alone is of far more value to my soul than anything I used to think about being right...or wrong...first...or last.

Your grace and humility opens a door for these welcome interludes...and also reminds me if and when I get like a dog on a hunt...the end is fellowship...not treeing some imagined quarry.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 5, 2012)

Israel said:


> I know I could sound contentious...but just so you may not have to frustrate yourself with trying to help me see who and what in particular God may be speaking to, I will tell you I have heard this "for myself"...which kinda goes as far back in the record to settle even everything that may come in between...
> 
> .



The friendliness of brothers speaking about the word of God is somewhat lost in an internet forum.I answer the questions posed as simple as I can.Not too friendly but certainly with respect.
 I'm not trying to help folks understand that don't want to understand but I know there are those that are curious and read these forums without responding, so I put out as much truth as I see it, and invite others with a differing opinion so those that are curious can read the differences and make a decision on their own.
 There have been more than a few times people have prove me wrong on things I had come to believe and I have learned from that...This is not one of those subjects. Eschatology has excited me since I was first saved and started seeing flaws in the dispensationalist ideology. Premillenialism does not hold up to the Bible, but it has become popular.
 Jesus said he come to fulfill the law..but the law would hold till heaven and earth passed...The law is fulfilled and Heaven and Earth have passed. God referred to his chosen people, Israel, as Heaven and Earth...Israel passed in AD70 And God sent down a new heaven and earth...what was in the OT Israel is now the Church...what was the Jew in the OT is now the saved Christian...what was the Gentile in the OT is now the Lost soul.....It is so clear one must blind themselves with their own doctrine to stop from seeing it.
 God Bless.


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## Israel (Jul 5, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> The friendliness of brothers speaking about the word of God is somewhat lost in an internet forum.I answer the questions posed as simple as I can.Not too friendly but certainly with respect.
> I'm not trying to help folks understand that don't want to understand but I know there are those that are curious and read these forums without responding, so I put out as much truth as I see it, and invite others with a differing opinion so those that are curious can read the differences and make a decision on their own.
> There have been more than a few times people have prove me wrong on things I had come to believe and I have learned from that...This is not one of those subjects. Eschatology has excited me since I was first saved and started seeing flaws in the dispensationalist ideology. Premillenialism does not hold up to the Bible, but it has become popular.
> Jesus said he come to fulfill the law..but the law would hold till heaven and earth passed...The law is fulfilled and Heaven and Earth have passed. God referred to his chosen people, Israel, as Heaven and Earth...Israel passed in AD70 And God sent down a new heaven and earth...what was in the OT Israel is now the Church...what was the Jew in the OT is now the saved Christian...what was the Gentile in the OT is now the Lost soul.....It is so clear one must blind themselves with their own doctrine to stop from seeing it.
> God Bless.



You've been very friendly to me...I hope nothing I'd written seems to indicate anything contrary to that.

I am the one that is difficult at times...


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## hobbs27 (Jul 5, 2012)

Israel said:


> You've been very friendly to me...I hope nothing I'd written seems to indicate anything contrary to that.
> 
> I am the one that is difficult at times...



I am glad, I felt as I answer questions without positive emotion it can come off as snarky or disrespectful, and that is not my intent.When I discuss this with people the spirit moves inside and I can't control the excitement, and the awaiting for the next question or comment, and I just go to typing without the realization that there is another child of God I'm speaking with.I love the Lord so much! He's like a friend{only better} that is always helping and you can never do enough to pay him back, so I would certainly hope to never offend a brother that loves the same Lord.
 With that said though,....I am right about this.
Only because I trust in the Lord and what He has shown me about it.


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## gtparts (Jul 8, 2012)

Scripture has many co-themes that run throughout the OT and NT. One that is quite obvious is that of repentance. God continually worked and works today to get each to see themselves as they truly are. If we then agree with God, we often seek His forgiveness and as He does, we are transformed, sanctified. What we see in the OT is reflected in the NT.

As to eschatology, we tend to focus on the macro side of the issue. What will (or will not) happen? In what order will it happen? Who is where (in particular, those who have died, Christian and non-Christian)?

Now, Christ has given us information concerning end times, principally to allay the fears and uncertainties in the minds of His disciples, then and now. I believe it also addresses our curious nature, but I also think it addresses the "lesser" side of eschatology.

I believe that the major issue is our personal eschatology.... where we stand spiritually in that day.

Christ asked "Who do they say I am?"
He follows that up with the most personal question, "Who do you say that I am?" He tells them (and us) what we are called to do. He relates stories (parables) to illustrate the nature of stewardship. He talks about not turning from the plow, persevering with focus. 

It is far more important to trust that God has everything perfectly prepared for us than try to sort out the details when?, where?, how?, and who?. 

I often wonder if doggedly pursuing and hammering others' beliefs concerning the differences in our eschatologies is not a work of the Devil, a distraction from that upon which we should be focusing .


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## hobbs27 (Jul 8, 2012)

The number one thing in all peoples lives is their relationship with Christ.Without that relationship they have no spiritual Father, no Holy Spirit convicting and directing them.

Escatology{ study of end times} is an important study today as we have some Christians worshipping the Jew and not witnessing Christ to them, thinking that they are saved in the Old Covenant Law.The Bible tells us there is no difference in the Jew or the Gentile.It is an awful and hateful thing to sit by and encourage a race of people to not accept Christ and participate in their own demise.
 There's also those that take Revelations in a literal futuristic sense and read it and preach it to young children to scare them into saying they have been saved...Then there's those that claim to have all the sysmbols figured out and give the dates and times of the Rapture...They have always got it wrong, so that makes a mockery of Gods word....All these things compounded and exposed could make a babe in Christ start to doubt their faith..I know this personally as I was taught by futurists as a child, and most churches around me have accepted it as truth.I saw their flaws early on, and just couldn't go along with it.
 I certainly don't want to hammer on others beliefs of end times, but how do you show what you see without denying their belief at the same time? Maybe just not say anything at all..that's hard when it has become your main course of study other than just being obedient to the Spirit.
 Christs disciples asked often when His coming and the end of the world would be.....His coming He told them would be soon...in their Generation...and there would be those that would not taste death till they saw the Son of Man coming in the clouds of Glory...The end of the world meant the end of an age...it was the end of the Jewish age they were asking of...That ended in 70AD with the appearence of Christ...The completion of Christs Kingdom.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 8, 2012)

Matthew 21:33-41 A parable explaining the Kingdom is taken from the Jew and given to another" I believe whosoever will". 

This is a good parable to read before Matthew 24, because it lays the foundation as to what CH. 24 is about.

All born again Christians I know will say we should live our lives so that Christ can be seen through us....and some of these same Christians ask if Jesus made an appearence in 70AD why isn't there any record of anyone seeing Him. They can't see the forest for the tree's I suppose.
 We as born again Christians live and take part of the Kingdom of Heaven...The Kingdom of God in His presence today.
 John saw a new heaven and a new earth. A Holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband..

When the Old Covenant was complete and Israel was judged and faced the wrath of God from 68 to 70 AD the old heaven and old earth passed, and the new heaven and new earth completely came down to earth in the form of salvation through the blood of the lamb...those that accept this salvation are a part of the New Testament church...the new heaven and earth...we as saved and sealed souls are adorned in white as a bride of Christ...we are betrothed to Christ.


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## StriperAddict (Jul 9, 2012)

Well hobbs, IMO: I see some 'streches' in biblical Escatology, 
or rather, additional thoughts outside the box...

but then, 

I oft wax big on Grace ad nausem to the 'religious' folk I suppose.


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## Ronnie T (Jul 9, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> Matthew 21:33-41 A parable explaining the Kingdom is taken from the Jew and given to another" I believe whosoever will".
> 
> This is a good parable to read before Matthew 24, because it lays the foundation as to what CH. 24 is about.
> 
> ...


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## hobbs27 (Jul 9, 2012)

Through this study I'm finding more and more people that have the same realization, here's a man that has put together some good scripture on this subject in even more detail.    http://www.preteristviewpoint.com/id40.html


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## hobbs27 (Jul 9, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> Well hobbs, IMO: I see some 'streches' in biblical Escatology,
> or rather, additional thoughts outside the box...
> 
> but then,
> ...



Ain't it great when you can break the chains of denomination doctrine and just let Gods word speak for itself.
I don't know how He could have been any more plain to His disciples in explaining the passing of the law.


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## Ronnie T (Jul 9, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> Through this study I'm finding more and more people that have the same realization, here's a man that has put together some good scripture on this subject in even more detail.    http://www.preteristviewpoint.com/id40.html





.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 9, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> .



Glad to see you are awake!


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## StriperAddict (Jul 9, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> Ain't it great when you can break the chains of denomination doctrine and just let Gods word speak for itself.
> I don't know how He could have been any more plain to His disciples in explaining the passing of the law.


 
In my post I was being conservative using the word 'streches', and 'outside the box' wasn't implying agreement.   

I have a bit more extreme reaction than Ronnies'   but there isn't a smiley icon for that.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 9, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> In my post I was being conservative using the word 'streches', and 'outside the box' wasn't implying agreement.
> 
> I have a bit more extreme reaction than Ronnies'   but there isn't a smiley icon for that.



I knew that, but I have put forth a lot of scripture and logical reasoning to the meaning of that scripture, and the dispute I get is that I'm stretching the word or thinking outside of the box.What part of  Matthew 5:18 is so hard to understand?
 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass,one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law,till all be fulfilled.

Is this not as plain spoken and clear as it can possibly be that until heaven and earth shall pass...nothing in the law will pass? 
We are no longer under every jot and tittle so heaven and earth must have passed!


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## StriperAddict (Jul 9, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> We are no longer under every jot and tittle so heaven and earth must have passed!


 
What's errf doing under my feets then??  

"But the day of (the) Lord as a thief in (the) night, in which
the heavens with rushing sound will pass away, (the) elements and
burning will be dissolved, and earth and the in it works will be
burned up, these things then all being dissolved .... looking for
and rushing the coming of the day of God, for which (the) heavens
being set on fire will be dissolved, and (the) elements burning
will melt. But new heavens and an earth, new according to the
promise of him we look for, in which righteousness dwells" (2
Peter 3:10 and 12).


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## Ronnie T (Jul 9, 2012)

I think you're over-analyzing the purpose of each scripture, and the subject of each scripture.
We often do that when we ask scripture to give us what we believe to be the correct answer.

The subject of these two verses is the Law.
(1)The destruction of the law; (2)the passing away of the law; and (3)the fulfillment of the law.

Matthew 5:17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you,Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law,till all be fulfilled.

*The law did not pass away until all of it was fulfilled.
The real question now is at what point was all of the law fulfilled?
Was it at Jesus' birth?
Was it at Jesus' baptism?
Was it at Jesus' death?
At Jesus' resurrection?
At Jesus' ascension?
At the establishment of the church in Acts 2?

But those two verses do not specify that heaven and earth must have passed away on the day of the law's fulfillment.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 9, 2012)

Striperaddict said:
			
		

> What's errf doing under my feets then??
> 
> "But the day of (the) Lord as a thief in (the) night, in which
> the heavens with rushing sound will pass away, (the) elements and
> ...



And this above concretes my point.When Peter wrote this , the Judgement of Israel had not happened yet.This letter was not to us in our day but to the establishing church.
The day of the Lord and the burning of Jeruselum was just a few years later than this. He was asking them to be patient, and remember that was spoken of the Holy Prophets was yet to be fulfilled.Read the whole 3rd Chapter keeping in mind of the passing of the old heaven and earth was just right around the corner.











Ronnie T said:


> I think you're over-analyzing the purpose of each scripture, and the subject of each scripture.
> We often do that when we ask scripture to give us what we believe to be the correct answer.
> 
> The subject of these two verses is the Law.
> ...



Not on the day, but it must happen first. One last thing I would add to your great list of the New Kingdom being established would be the old one being destroyed.
The Judgement of Israel in 70AD completed the fulfillment of the law.The 24th Chapter of Matthew explains this.


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## Ronnie T (Jul 9, 2012)

Based upon things written in Luke 17, I do believe that Matt 24 in it's entirety could be referring to events that have already taken place.  Could be.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 9, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> Based upon things written in Luke 17, I do believe that Matt 24 in it's entirety could be referring to events that have already taken place.  Could be.





Ronnie it is good to study.Read the history of what happened to Israel from 68 to 70 AD if you're not already a Jewish history scholar. Go back through all the end times prophecy you know of and compare, I think it will be enlightening to you, because from what I have read of your posts you already accept the present kingdom of Jesus.
 There are those that don't accept Christ as the present King of Kings and Lord of Lords. I sat under a futurist preacher once that said Christ had not been crowned King of Kings yet.....talk about having the spirit knocked out of you.
This is the meat of the word, and you may not find anything at all like God has shown me, but a good study always reveals things you didn't know before.


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## Ronnie T (Jul 9, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> Ronnie it is good to study.Read the history of what happened to Israel from 68 to 70 AD if you're not already a Jewish history scholar. Go back through all the end times prophecy you know of and compare, I think it will be enlightening to you, because from what I have read of your posts you already accept the present kingdom of Jesus.
> There are those that don't accept Christ as the present King of Kings and Lord of Lords. I sat under a futurist preacher once that said Christ had not been crowned King of Kings yet.....talk about having the spirit knocked out of you.
> This is the meat of the word, and you may not find anything at all like God has shown me, but a good study always reveals things you didn't know before.



Yeah I know.


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## StriperAddict (Jul 10, 2012)

*Apostacy, anyone???*

wow 



hobbs27 said:


> The day of the Lord and the burning of Jeruselum was just a few years later than this. He was asking them to be patient, and remember that was spoken of the Holy Prophets was yet to be fulfilled.Read the whole 3rd Chapter keeping in mind of the passing of the old heaven and earth was just right around the corner.


 
The day of the Lord has come already? 
I'm sorry, but I think I/we didn't get the memo 

Try this...

Revelation (and Daniel) also make it clear that a coming apostacy will happen throughout the world, not just in Jerusalem, and the man of sin (satan incarnate) will take his place as a pseudo-christ, performing miracles that decieve mankind. 
Concerning "the day of the Lord"...
2 Peter 3:10
[ A New Heaven and Earth ] But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
This is a world-wise witnessable event.


2 Thessalonians 1:6-7, “God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with powerful angels.” 
.... to the entire world. Sorry for repeating myself, I think the scripture is clear. Christ will come in "that" day, visible to ALL, and rule victorious... regardless if man is ready or not:

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every *eye* *shall* *see* him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth *shall* wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
 


hobbs27 said:


> The Judgement of Israel in 70AD completed the fulfillment of the law.The 24th Chapter of Matthew explains this.


 
Christ is the fulfillment of the law in His person, and we have in our spirit man joined in that fulfillment (Christ in us, the hope of glory) and we will join later in our resurrected new bodies:

1 Corinthians 15:23-28
<SUP class=versenum>*23 *</SUP>But each in his own order: Christ <SUP class=crossreference value='(A)'></SUP>the first fruits, after that <SUP class=crossreference value='(B)'></SUP>those who are Christ’s at <SUP class=crossreference value='(C)'></SUP>His coming, 
<SUP class=versenum>*24 *</SUP>then _comes_ the end, when He hands over <SUP class=crossreference value='(D)'></SUP>the kingdom to the <SUP class=crossreference value='(E)'></SUP>God and Father, when He has abolished <SUP class=crossreference value='(F)'></SUP>all rule and all authority and power. 
<SUP class=versenum>*25 *</SUP>For He must reign <SUP class=crossreference value='(G)'></SUP>until He has put all His enemies under His feet. <SUP class=versenum>*26 *</SUP>The last enemy that will be <SUP class=crossreference value='(H)'></SUP>abolished is death. 
<SUP class=versenum>*27 *</SUP>For <SUP class=crossreference value='(I)'></SUP>He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “ <SUP class=crossreference value='(J)'></SUP>All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 
<SUP class=versenum>*28 *</SUP>When <SUP class=crossreference value='(K)'></SUP>all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that <SUP class=crossreference value='(L)'></SUP>God may be all in all.


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## Ronnie T (Jul 10, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> wow
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Now I agree with you.  I believe the old covenant was fulfilled before the temple was destroyed.

I'm very agreeable lately.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 10, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> Concerning "the day of the Lord"...
> 2 Peter 3:10
> [ A New Heaven and Earth ] But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
> This is a world-wise witnessable event.
> ...


     Hebrews 10:25 speaks of a day that may be seen to be drawing near. The writer further identifies that day by using the definite article "the" with the word "day". He is very confident that his readers know of the day he has in mind. They were to "exhort one another and so much the more as you see the day drawing near." He writes as though he expected his readers to see that day in their lifetime.

     Many interpret this day as the first day of the week. To think of it in this manner would require us to exhort one another on Tuesday more than Monday and increasingly so as the week progresses. It also fails to consider the previous exhortation.

     The verse in its setting shows that it is related to having confidence about entering the holy place by the blood of Christ (vs 19); to drawing near with a sincere heart in a full assurance of faith (vs 22); to holding fast the confession and believing him that has promised (vs 23); and stimulating one another unto to love and good works (vs 24); and not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together (vs 25).

     The chapter continues with a warning of shrinking back from the knowledge of the truth. Those who do so stand in jeopardy of a coming judgment, one that calls forth an Old Testament prophecy from Habakkuk 2:3 whose words "the vision is yet for the appointed time" have been changed to indicate the nearness of the Coming One in a "very little while" (vs 37).

     It is to this day, the day of the Coming One, the Day of the Lord that I am persuaded that they are exhorting each other about and so much the more as the day draws near.

     Most commentaries readily admit that the day in view is most likely looking to the fall of Jerusalem in the first century and not to the Lord's Day. Some commentaries also acknowledge that the early church had an expectation of living to see that day. They believed and taught that "the day of the Lord" was at hand but this day was never realized. This problem is usually answered in one of three ways:

     1. The Lord did not teach nor did the disciples believe in such an expectation.

     2. The Lord expected to return in their lifetime, but had to postpone his coming because of his rejection by the Jews.

     3. The Lord purposefully gave this expectation to the church so that every generation would live so as to expect his coming.

     I believe that these answers show little understanding of the word of God and do not hold to the concept that "the word of God cannot be broken". All of these miss the truth of the matter. The Day of the Lord in view in the New Testament was the day that judgment came upon the Jews in 70 AD.

     Please consider these verses: "You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes." (Mt 10:23 NASB).

     With this verse Jesus concludes his teaching to his apostles concerning events for which he wanted to prepare them. Prior to the giving of the Holy Spirit on the Pentecost after his resurrection, the apostles were forbidden to go "in the way of the Gentiles" (Mt 10:5). Now he prepares them to go even to the Gentiles. But when they go, they are not to concern themselves about what they are to say; the Spirit of their Father will speak in them. They would also be delivered up before governors and kings and scourged in their synagogues. He comforts them with these concluding words that their work would not be completed before the Son of Man comes. The correct understanding of these verses would place these events after the departure of Jesus and the giving of the Holy Spirit, but within the lifetime of the apostles.

     Mt 16:27-28 also parallels this teaching:

     "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." (Mt 16:27-28 NASB).

     Some would live to see the Lord coming in his kingdom and it would be a time of judgment of every man. Those who hold to the agelong expectation theory see this verse fulfilled at Pentecost, 30 AD, or even earlier at the transfiguration. People who hold the postponement theory would see this verse as unfulfilled. Some, even after acknowledging these verses, would say that Jesus did not teach this expectation at all!

     So let us examine these concepts. You may find reasons, pro or con, other than the ones that I list:

     1. Some would declare that Jesus did not teach nor did his disciples believe in an expectation of the near return of Christ.

     a. However, Mt 10:23 and Mt 16:28 indicate that Christ taught his disciples to expect his return in their lifetime.     b. And Heb 10:25 coupled with Heb 10:37 indicate that the disciples taught that "the day" was near and that in "yet a very little while, he who is coming will come."



     2. Some would declare that Jesus expected to return in his disciples' lifetime, but had to postpone his coming because of his rejection by the Jews. This is a basic tenant of Premillennial doctrine.

     a. But this rejection of Jesus was shown beforehand by the Old Testament prophets and clearly rejects the postponement theory. It was planned to be this way before the foundation of the world. Isaiah 53 is most obvious in declaring his rejection, but in no way declares a postponement of the Kingdom by this rejection. God was fully aware of the rejection of Christ by the Jews and had amply spoken of it. Given below are a few of the Old Testament types and shadows which show this prophetic rejection:

     1) The bruising of the heel of the woman's seed and showing Satan's temporary victory over Christ.

     2) The death of Able by his brother showing the Christ being delivered to death by his brethren.

     3) The sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham declaring how the Father would deliver his own son as a sacrifice.

     4) The rejection of Joseph by his brethren telling again that the Christ would be rejected by his brethren.

     5) The Passover, the death of the firstborn speaking about the death of the Father's firstborn, Jesus.

     6) Moses smiting the rock in the wilderness. It was a figure of the Christ who was to be smitten only once. Moses was rebuked for smiting the rock a second time. It was not according to the pattern that God was revealing.

     7) The scapegoat provided insight into the forgiveness of sins.

     8) The ashes of the heifer announces the forgiveness of sins.

     9) Psalm 22 proclaimed the suffering of Christ on the cross.

     10) Jonah in the belly of the fish heralded the resurrection.

     11) They shall look on him whom they have pierced of Zech 12 foretold the suffering of Christ on the cross.

     b. The postponement theory is received in various configurations by the Premillennial community. Prominent among their beliefs are:

     1) That Jesus came teaching the Kingdom of God was at hand, but in the middle of his ministry changed and began teaching concerning his death.

     2) That the church was given as an interim measure until the Kingdom of God could be established.

     3) That the OT prophecies which spoke of the Kingdom were placed on "hold" until Jesus comes to rapture the saints. This is also called the "gap theory".

     4) That the OT prophecies will then be fulfilled beginning with seven years of tribulation and the reign of the Antichrist.

     5) That Jesus will then return with his saints and establish his reign over the earth for 1000 years.

     6) That when the 1000 years are over Satan will be destroyed and the Kingdom restored to the Father.

     7) This doctrine essentially says that the time elements of prophecy may be altered or changed; that prophetic statements really cannot be trusted.

     8) This doctrine acknowledges that Jesus taught his disciples that he would return during their lifetime, but that he had to postpone it.

     3. Some would teach that the Lord gave this agelong expectation to the church so that every generation would live so as to expect his coming.

     a. This teaching acknowledges that Jesus taught that he would return in the lifetime of the disciples.

     b. This return is seen either in the transfiguration or in the giving of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. Neither of these fit easily into the events that Jesus spoke about as happening to the apostles before he returned.

     c. They believe that the time element of the apostles' teaching concerning the "at hand" nature of Jesus' coming is to be taken figuratively.

     d. Since the time elements of prophecy have the same meaning to each generation, the coming of Jesus will be in our own lifetime.

     As noted in the beginning I believe there is a fourth way to view these statements of Jesus:

     4. That the expectation of the return of Jesus was realized in the first century during the lifetime of some of those who stood by and before the apostles finished their ministry to Israel.

     a. This expectation is shown by a few representative verses in the writings of the apostles:

     1) Paul: "The Lord is at hand". (Phil 4:5).

     2) James: "for the coming of the Lord is at hand". (Jas 5:7).

     3) Peter: "The end of all things is at hand". (I Pet 4:7).

     4) John: "It is the last hour". (I Jn 2:18).

     5) John: "for the time is at hand". (Rev 1:3).

     b. This expectation may be seen to have its fulfillment in the judgment of God on Israel in 70 AD.

     1) Jesus: "I will send unto them prophets and apostles; and some of them they shall kill and persecute; that the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; from the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary: yea, I say unto you it shall be required of this generation." (Lk 11:49-51).

     2) Jesus: "For these are days of vengeance, that all things that are written may be fulfilled." (Lk 21:22).

     3) Jesus: "Then shall they see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory." (Lk 21:27).

     4) Jesus: "Even so ye also, when ye see these things coming to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh." (Lk 21:31).

     5) Jesus: "This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished." (Lk 21:32).

     c. The gospel not only had the effect of saving people from their sins, but had the additional benefit of saving them from the calamity that was falling upon Israel.

     1) John the Baptist: "Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? ...And even now the ax also lieth at the root of the trees: every tree therefore that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." (Lk 3:7, 9).

     2) Jesus: "What therefore will the lord of the vineyard do unto them? He will come and destroy these husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others." (Lk 20:15,16).

     3) Jesus: "Then let them that are in Judea flee unto the mountains." (Lk 21:21).

     4) Peter: "Save yourselves from this crooked generation."   (Acts 2:40).

     5) Paul: "That ye may become blameless and harmless, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom ye are seen as lights in the world." (Phil 2:15).

     These verses illustrate that the message of the gospel carried with it an appeal to escape the wrath of God that was to come on Israel. Daniel had also declared that it would be during the time of the division of the fourth kingdom. In the days of those kings the God of Heaven would establish a kingdom that would never be destroyed. It would put an end to all those kingdoms. He shows that this would be after ten kings had reigned. It would be during the time of the little horn that God's judgment would come against the nations. The then that the saints possess the kingdom. These events are best seen during Israel's judgment in 70 AD. Neither the prophets, Jesus nor his apostles speak of a postponement of the Kingdom. There is no truth in the gap theory!

     Some would say that the word "generation" means "race" and conclude that the Jewish race will not pass away until all these things are fulfilled. In this way they try to avoid the immediacy of the text by perverting the words. Another method is to say that the verse refers to the "generation that sees these things." But Jesus defines the word in Mt. 23:29-36 by comparing his generation with that of their fathers and thereby showing that he was speaking of those who were his contemporaries. The judgment required of "this generation" excluded their fathers although they were of the same race. His generation would prove their exceeding wickedness by their persecution of the apostles and prophets. And His generation saw all these things!

     So "the day drawing near" has considerable significance in the prophetic teaching of Jesus and his apostles. They taught that there were events which could be seen and which would precede the judgment on that generation. Why else should they "Watch" unless there is something to be seen. Specifically, they would see antichrists, wars, earthquakes, famines, persecutions, false prophets, apostasy, and the gospel of the kingdom preached in all the world (inhabited earth). The abomination of desolation of Daniel's prophecy would be the sign to flee Judea. It is interpreted by Luke as the surrounding of Jerusalem by armies. The great tribulation that follows is primarily from Dan 12:1 but may be seen in Joel 2:2 and Jer 30:7. Immediately following that is the sign of the Son of Man in the heavens. " Then shall all the tribes (Jewish people) of the earth (land) mourn and they shall see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory". Jesus was returning to judge that generation. His servant would be the Roman armies. Then Rome would be judged and the kingdom given to the saints. 

     Now consider the Old Testament prophets. They also speak of this day. And their prophecies do not stop at the cross. They speak until the last prophecy is accomplished and they speak of this day! Have you noticed how the Day of Jehovah in the Old Testament becomes the Day of the Lord in the New Testament? Joel 2:31 and Acts 2:20 are a case in point. Also the Great and Terrible Day that comes after he sends Elijah (Malachi 4:5), has its fulfillment on this day. Zech 14:5 says that "Jehovah my God shall come, and all his holy ones with thee." When, if not in the judgment on Israel? Is Daniel's prophecy of 70 weeks concluded at the cross or in this judgment? He saw vision and prophecy sealed up but vision and prophecy are accelerated during the time of the apostles. Paul stated that "when that which was perfect comes, that which is in part will be done away." That which was in part was prophecy, tongues and knowledge (vision?). Daniel also saw the abomination of desolation concluding the 70 weeks, which Jesus says takes place at Jerusalem's destruction. Sort of locks that in for us, doesn't it?

     Jesus also tells us that "these are days of vengeance that all things which are written may be fulfilled. " (Lk 21:22). Peter says that Jesus must remain in heaven "until the restitution of all things whereof God spake by the mouth of his holy prophets." (Acts 3:21). James suggests that the prophets agree with the event of God visiting the Gentiles to take from them a people for his name. And he quotes Amos 9:11-12 "After these things I will return, and I will build again the tabernacle of David which is fallen." (Acts 15:16). Paul says that "a hardening in part hath befallen Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in; and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, 'There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer;'" (Rom 11:25,26). In all of these verses there is a reference to an Old Testament prophecy in which I am suggesting that they have their fulfillment in God's judgment on Israel in 70 AD.

     It has been my purpose to show that Christ taught, and the disciples of the first century believed, that there would be some who would live to see Christ coming in his kingdom. I hope to have shown that both the Old and New Testament scriptures teach that this may be seen to be fulfilled during God's judgment on Israel in the first century. Not seen in this paper is the meaning of all of this for our generation, but out of this, one should see that the Mosaic Law, the period of types and shadows, extends through the period of the judgment on Israel and did not pass away at the cross. Out of this typical arrangement we should see that the saints now partake of the spiritual arrangement, the Kingdom of God.

     Because Jesus did keep his promise to return in judgment on his generation, we can with confidence and hope look for his return for us and know with surety that he rules and judges the world now. To place the end of the Jewish age at the cross, rather than at Israel's judgment, leads one into conclusions which tend to make void the prophecies of the Old and New Testaments and promote a false expectation and hope. They were given prophecies and signs by which they could know of coming events. We live in a time of no prophets and no signs. All Old Testament prophecies have been fulfilled (Mt 5:17). Vision and prophecy have been sealed up (Daniel 9:24); the day that a fountain is opened for sin and uncleanness of Jerusalem is the day that the prophet and unclean spirits are cast out of the land (Zech 13:1-4); and Paul foreseeing this day spoke of a time when prophecy would be done away and tongues would cease in the day when that which is perfect comes (I Cor 13:8-10). The time of that event had been given in the Old Testament.







			
				StriperAddict said:
			
		

> Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every *eye* *shall* *see* him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth *shall* wail because of him. Even so, Amen.



 So if I'm crazy because you don't understand what the meaning of "The day of the Lord" is. What does that make you to say those that pierced him are still alive today some 1,980 some odd years?

I agree the Law is fulfilled in Christ, I never differed from that, but the prophecy of the destruction of Israel and the passing of heaven and earth were fulfilled in the destruction of Israel 70 AD...


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## hobbs27 (Jul 10, 2012)

So what did they see at the destruction of the temple?

ORIGINAL CONTEMPORARY TESTIMONIES

Josephus (A.D. 75) - Jewish Historian
"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).

â€œA supernatural apparition was seen, too amazing to be believed. What I am now to relate would, I imagine, be dismissed as imaginary, had this not been vouched for by eyewitnesses, then followed by subsequent disasters that deserved to be thus signalized. For before sunset chariots were seen in the air over the whole country, and armed battalions speeding through the clouds and encircling the cities.â€�  (rendered in Chilton)

Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian
"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. Few people placed a sinister interpretation upon this. The majority were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world." (Histories, Book 5, v. 13).

HISTORICAL TESTIMONIES

Anonymous (1399)
Armed men in the ayere    upon ost-wyse,
Over the cyté were seyn    sundrede tymes.
A calf agen kynde    calved in the Temple
And eued an ewe-lombe    at the offryng-tyme. (lines 1225-1228)

"And then the people thought about them (these omens) and considered it all [God's] vengeance, / And knew their woe was due to the wrong that they did / When they killed in the town the bishop, Saint James; / [Yet] no one would equate it with Christ['s suffering], the misfortunes that they had." (Siege of Jerusalem, Lines 1237-40)

Richard Carew (1769)
"By such tokens, sometimes wonderfull, sometimes ridiculous, doth God at his pleasure, foreshewe future accidents: as in the Planets, before the battell at Thrasimenus, betweene Hannibal and the Romanes, by the fighting together of the Sunne and Moone. In birds, what time Brute brought forth the remnant of his army at Philippi, against Caesar and Anthony, by the furious bickering betweene two Eagles. In men, against the destruction of Hierusalem, by the encountring of Chariots and armies in the ayre. And before Alexanders battel with Darius; first, by a casual skirmish of the camp-straglers, vnder two Captaines, borrowing the names of those Princes; and then by Alexanders voluntary setting those Captaines to a single combat. Yea (to bring these examples neerer home) the like hath hapned both before and sithence, amongst boyes in other places. " (The Survey of Cornwall, p. 100)

Eusebius of Caesarea (A.D. 325)
"For before the setting of the sun chariots and armed troops were seen throughout the whole region in mid-air, wheeling through the clouds and encircling the cities" (Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Ch. 8).

Mark Hopkins  (1844)
"Still further, Jesus Himself prophesied. "Before the time of Christ and during His life, no false Christ arose; there was no war, and no prospect of one; and the Temple, and Jerusalem, were standing in all their strength. But He foretold that false Christs should arise, and should deceive many; that there should be earthquakes and famines, and fearful sights in heaven, and wars and rumors of wars, and great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world, nor ever should be; and that Jerusalem should be compassed with armies; and that a trench should be cast round about it; and that one stone of the temple should not be left upon another; and that the Jews should be carried captive among all nations." Josephus verifies all these predictions to the letter. He was an eyewitness and a Jew, and nothing can be more striking than the comparison of his history with the prophecy. He tells of "fearful sights and great signs from heaven"; that "before sunsetting, chariots, and troops of soldiers in their armor, were seen running about among the clouds." "At the feast of Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner court of the Temple, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and, after that, they heard the sound as of a multitude, saying, 'Let us depart hence.'"'

 Tacitus, a Roman historian, also says, "There were many prodigies presignifying their ruin which was not averted by all the sacrifices and vows of that people. Armies were seen fighting in the air with brandished weapons. A fire fell upon the Temple from the clouds. The doors of the Temple were suddenly opened. At the same time there was a loud voice saying that the gods were removing, which was accompanied with a sound as of a multitude going out. All which things were supposed, by some to portend great calamities."1

 Josephus further says that "no other city ever suffered such miseries; nor was there ever a generation more fruitful in wickedness from the beginning of the world. ... In reality it was God who condemned the whole nation and turned every course that was taken for their preservation to their destruction. . . . The multitudes of those who perished exceeded all the destructions that man or God ever brought upon the world."

 Famine did its slow but dreadful work so that women were known to eat their own children, just as Moses said they would do, fifteen hundred years before. The prophecy of Christ that not one stone of the Temple should be left upon another, was literally fulfilled. The Jews were carried into captivity among all nations, and their condition from that time till now has been an impressive proof of the truth of prophecy. (Hopkins' Evidences, pp. 322-324.)

Thomas Newton (1754)


Thomas Newton
"To these St, Luke addeth, xxi. 11, that 'there shall be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.' Josephus, in the preface to his history of the Jewish war, undertakes to relate " the signs and prodigies, which preceded the taking of the city;" and he relates accordingly, that "a star hung over the city like a sword, and the comet continued for a whole year ;" that "the people being assembled to celebrate the feast of unleavened bread, at the ninth hour of the night there shone so great a light about the altar and the temple, that it seemed to be bright day, and this continued for half an hour;" that " at the same feast a cow, led by the priest to sacrifice, brought forth a lamb in the middle of the temple;" that " the eastern gate of the temple, which was of solid brass and very heavy, and was scarcely shut in an evening by twenty men, and was fastened by strong bars and bolts, was seen, at the sixth hour of the night, opened of its own accord, and could hardly be shut again;" that "before the setting of the sun there were seen over all the country chariots and armies fighting in the clouds, and besieging cities ;" that " at the feast of Pentecost, as the priests were going into the inner temple by night as usual to attend their service, they heard first a motion and noise, and then a voice as of a multitude saying, Let us depart hence;" and what be reckons as the most terrible of all, that one Jesus, an ordinary country fellow, four years before the war began, when the city was in peace and plenty, came to the feast of tabernacles, and ran crying up and down the streets day and night, 'A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the temple, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, a voice against all the people.' The magistrates endeavoured by stripes and tortures, to restrain him; but he still cried with a mournful voice, 'Woe, woe to Jerusalem!,' This he continued to do for seven years and five months together, and especially at the great festivals; and he neither grew hoarse nor was tired; but went about the walls, and cried with a loud voice, 'Woe, woe to the city, and to the people, and to the temple;' and as he added at last, ' Woe, woe also to myself,' it happened that a stone from some sling or engine immediately struck him dead. These were indeed fearful sights and great 'signs from heaven:' and there is not a more creditable historian than the author who relates them, and who appeals to the testimony of those who saw and heard them. But it may add some weight to his relation, that Tacitus, the Roman historian, also gives us a summary account of the same occurrences. He saith that "there happened several prodigies, armies were seen engaging in the heavens, arms were seen glittering, and the temple shone with the sudden fire of the clouds, the doors of the temple opened suddenly, and a voice greater than human was heard, that the gods were departing, and likewise a great motion of their departing." Dr. Jortin's remark is very pertinent. "If Christ had not expressly foretold this, many, who gave little heed to portents, and who know that historians have been too credulous in that point, would have suspected that Josephus exaggerated, and that Tacitus was misinformed ; but as the testimonies of Josephus and Tacitus confirm the predictions of Christ, so the predictions of Christ confirm the wonders recorded by these historians." But even allowing all that incredulity can urge that in the great calamities of war, and famine, and pestilence, the people always grow superstitious, and are struck with religious panics;-- that they see nothing then but prodigies and portents, which in happier seasons are overlooked ;-- that some of these appear to be formed in imitation of the Greek and Roman historians as particularly the cow's bringing forth a lamb ;-- that armies fighting in the clouds, seen in calamitous times in all ages and countries, are nothing more than meteors, such as the aurora borealis ;-- in short allowing that some of these prodigies were feigned, and others were exaggerated, yet the prediction of them is not the less divine on that account. Whether they were supernatural, or the fictions only of a disordered imagination, yet they were believed as realities, and had all the effects of realities, and were equally worthy to be made the objects of prophecy. 'Fearful sights and great signs from heaven' they certainly were, as much as if they had been created on purpose to astonish the earth." (The Prophecy of Matthew 24, Dissertation XVIII)

Rev. William Patton (1877)
"He tells of strange sights of chariots and armies in the heavens: "A few days after the feast, on the twenty-first of the month Artemisius, a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; . . . for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding cities." He tells us also of an unusual voice heard in the temple: "Moreover at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner court of the temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, â€œLet us remove hence!' "  (The Judgment of Jerusalem - Chapter V)

Johann Philip Schabalie (1635)
"Soon after the feast of the passover, in various parts of the country, before the setting sun, chariots and armed men were seen in the air, passing round about Jerusalem, which was very alarming to behold.  At the subsequent feast of Pentecost, while the priests were going, by night, into the inner temple to perform their customary ministrations, they first felt, as they said, a shaking, accompanied by an indistinct murmuring, and afterwards voices of a multitude, saying, in a distinct and earnest manner, "Let us go hence." (The Wandering Soul, p. 412-413)


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## hobbs27 (Jul 10, 2012)

More here...........
http://www.letgodbetrue.com/sermons/prophecy/70ad/sermon.php


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## Ronnie T (Jul 10, 2012)

You've written much more than I can respond to so I'll just say this concerning one thing you said"

"a. However, Mt 10:23 and Mt 16:28 indicate that Christ taught his disciples to expect his return in their lifetime.

That isn't necessarily a true statement.  Jesus said many of them would live to see Himself come into His kingdom.  I think Jesus was speaking of the establishment of the church (His kingdom).

You also said that 'most commentaries agree with your point of view'.  I'm not so sure that's true.
This is a great subject to discuss, but I don't think it's a very good subject to debate to see who's right and who's wrong.

"The day of the Lord" and how it's used in this subject is important in the consideration.
That term is used many times in the old testament, and so would be a term that Jesus was accustomed to considering.  In the old testament, there were many "day of the Lord".


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## hummerpoo (Jul 10, 2012)

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Hyper/0000_hopkins_day-drawing.html

WARNING: THE FOLLOWING MATERIAL HAS BEEN CLASSIFIED AS "HYPER PRETERIST"



hobbs27 said:


> Hebrews 10:25 speaks of a day that may be seen to be drawing near. The writer further identifies that day by using the definite article "the" with the word "day". He is very confident that his readers know of the day he has in mind. They were to "exhort one another and so much the more as you see the day drawing near." He writes as though he expected his readers to see that day in their lifetime....
> 
> BODY OF ARTICLE DELETED TO SAVE SPACE.
> 
> ...


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## hobbs27 (Jul 10, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> This is a great subject to discuss, but I don't think it's a very good subject to debate to see who's right and who's wrong.



I agree, and that's what I want more than anything is a good Christian discussion, so I will no longer respond to criticism but invite questions and peaceful comments or concerns. I've laid out tons of scripture and history and reasoning, so anyone could read this thread and have a beginning of understanding of the fulfilled prophecies, but I would ask anyone to lay down doctrine and study and allow God to verify what is correct.

I will leave with this though.
 Matthew 23:37 “ Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘ Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”


24  Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. 2 And He said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.”

3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

4 And Jesus answered and said to them, “ See to it that no one misleads you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8  But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.

9 “ Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 At that time many will  fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12 Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. 13  But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. 14 This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole  world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23  Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great  signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25 Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. 27  For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28  Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

32 “Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35  Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

The underlined is mostly in reference to who Jesus is speaking to..The disciples.
 The NASB used here is for Ronnie.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 10, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> http://www.preteristarchive.com/Hyper/0000_hopkins_day-drawing.html
> 
> WARNING: THE FOLLOWING MATERIAL HAS BEEN CLASSIFIED AS "HYPER PRETERIST"



Glad you are studying and researching, I would bring up this point so you can see I am not a Hyper preterist, it was a good article to show meaning of The Day of the Lord.
from the site:

SOME DISTINCTIVE DOCTRINES OF SYSTEMATIZED HYPER PRETERISM

It is important to keep in mind that many ideas and doctrines full preterism appeals to - such as the complete end of the Old Covenant world in AD70 - are by no means distinctive to that view.   Many non HyPs believe this as well, so one need not embrace the Hyper Preterist system in order to endorse this view. : 

 I do not believe revelations 20 to be fulfilled, therefore I don't fit into that categorie. There is still an end coming and a resurrection day, and we will all face judgement.


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## hummerpoo (Jul 10, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> Glad you are studying and researching, I would bring up this point so you can see I am not a Hyper preterist, it was a good article to show meaning of The Day of the Lord.
> from the site:
> 
> SOME DISTINCTIVE DOCTRINES OF SYSTEMATIZED HYPER PRETERISM
> ...


I'm sure I couldn't read fast enough to keep up with the seeming explosion of ideas in this area.

My study has been in the Bible.
Rm. 3
 31.  Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

I'll leave it to you to work out the context.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 11, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> My study has been in the Bible.
> Rm. 3
> 31.  Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
> 
> I'll leave it to you to work out the context.



This is good scripture...well it all is good! This past Sunday the pastor at the church I visited touched on this.In his sermon he said, we do not practice the law to be saved, but the law is practiced because we are saved.
I understand that to mean, being sanctified and counseled by the Holy Spirit we live our lives as we should.Lord knows I do not live a perfect life, and this ole flesh"outer man" is tempted, but our sanctified souls"inner man" in which Christ resides keeps us in check and even chastises us when need be.So the law is fulfilled in Christ.

The end of the Old Covenant came in stages with the completion being that of the fulfilled prophecy of the end of the old world(age) ad70 with the destruction of Israel.The old law was torn out by its roots by the taking away of mans authority to enforce it.No longer was there a temple, no longer was there a Jewish land, and no longer was there a high priest with authority.

We are told that heaven and earth must pass before the law could pass.Heaven and earth being the old kingdom of God passed, John saw a new heaven and earth descend down from God...This is the new kingdom in which we live today..the whosoever wills', Christs kingdom of grace.

To touch on the porousia (appearance) of Christ in the last day on the completion of Gods wrath and judgement on Israel...I've stated this before.We are to live our lives so Christ can be seen through us, I'm sure we all know some saint of God that we have seen Christ through..This is one of the glorious parts of living in his present kingdom.


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## StriperAddict (Jul 11, 2012)

30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

These Mt-24 verses, including "this gospel must be preached in ALL the world... then the end shall come" contradict the 70Ad teaching. Not to mention when the temple was destroyed God never said that this was a type of tribulation more terrible than what the world has ever seen, and all sign posts, scripture and several Daniel/Rev verses being fulfilled in our lifetime (Israels rebirth as a nation, etc) seem to show us that we are close to a spiritual/economic catastrophe no one has ever witnessed throughout time, let alone the 70AD temple.



> I understand that to mean, being sanctified and counseled by the Holy Spirit we live our lives as we should.Lord knows I do not live a perfect life, and this ole flesh"outer man" is tempted, but our sanctified souls"inner man" in which Christ resides keeps us in check and even chastises us when need be.So the law is fulfilled in Christ.


On this we agree.


I can be agreeable










sometimes


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## hobbs27 (Jul 12, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
> 
> These Mt-24 verses, including "this gospel must be preached in ALL the world... then the end shall come" contradict the 70Ad teaching. Not to mention when the temple was destroyed God never said that this was a type of tribulation more terrible than what the world has ever seen, and all sign posts, scripture and several Daniel/Rev verses being fulfilled in our lifetime (Israels rebirth as a nation, etc) seem to show us that we are close to a spiritual/economic catastrophe no one has ever witnessed throughout time, let alone the 70AD temple.



Without an indepth study of what the words mean and just taking it literal it would contradict itself, but so would Matthew 5:18 for we no longer practice every jot and tittle of the law.I have found when the word of God seems to be contradicting itself, I'm missing something. I have faith in the Bible and have found it to be virtually flawless.Jesus said till heaven and earth shall pass, everything in the law stands, but after heaven and earth pass the law also would pass.
 No one disagrees that the law has passed through the fulfilling of it in Jesus Christ, so we should come to an understanding of what he meant by heaven and earth passing first. I have found no better evidence than what I put forth in the beginning of this thread that using the description God used as asking Israel to give ear,,,refering to her as Heaven and Earth in Deuteronomy the song of moses and also in Isaiah 1:2, that Jesus knowing the disciples would understand he was talking about the gov't and people of Israel, The OT, and Judiasm as Gods chosen people, as heaven and earth.

There's also an understanding as to what all the earth means as the Gospel going out and I'm pretty sure you can find in Acts where they proclaimed the Gospel had already gone out to all the earth in that time.

The first Christians faced horrible tribulations like the world has never seen, I suggest Foxx book of Martyrs if you have never read it, great stuff, and you will go away from it realizing how blessed we are today because of the faith they had then. John even notes in Revelations to his brothers in tribulation.

I am not saying that the prophecy of the end has come. I'm saying that people err when they use Matthew 24 as prophecy of an end to our time. It was the prophecy of an end to Israel as the Holy Land, and the Jew as Gods chosen.
 When I found myself lost in 1984 and an old preacher man stood between the living and the dead and delivered the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and  Jesus stood at the door of my soul and knocked, I answered and was saved by grace, That night I was his chosen.On the day of pentacost in Acts Peter stood and preached the Gospel to people that were physically born as Gods chosen{Jew} but when their hearts were pricked and they repented and were Baptised in the name of Jesus they were born as Gods chosen {spiritually}.The Old Covenant was just about gone, but there still stood a temple and a land. 70 AD completed that.
Matthew 24 was Jesus prophecy in the completion and warning to the Christian to flee.
 In all the historical accounts of that great war that I have been able to find accounts for zero deaths of Christians inside Israel.Even though hundreds of thousand of Jews were killed and captured.I think the first Christians understood Matthew 24 pretty good and fled when the signs appeared.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 12, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> There's also an understanding as to what all the earth means as the Gospel going out and I'm pretty sure you can find in Acts where they proclaimed the Gospel had already gone out to all the earth in that time.



CORRECTION it is in Romans although Acts tells us there were men of all nations in jeruselum that heard the preaching by peter.

Romans 16:25-27
King James Version (KJV)

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


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## gtparts (Jul 12, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> Without an indepth study of what the words mean and just taking it literal it would contradict itself, but so would Matthew 5:18 for we no longer practice every jot and tittle of the law.I have found when the word of God seems to be contradicting itself, I'm missing something. I have faith in the Bible and have found it to be virtually flawless.Jesus said till heaven and earth shall pass, everything in the law stands, but after heaven and earth pass the law also would pass.
> 
> No one disagrees that the law has passed through the fulfilling of it in Jesus Christ, so we should come to an understanding of what he meant by heaven and earth passing first. I have found no better evidence than what I put forth in the beginning of this thread that using the description God used as asking Israel to give ear,,,refering to her as Heaven and Earth in Deuteronomy the song of moses and also in Isaiah 1:2, that Jesus knowing the disciples would understand he was talking about the gov't and people of Israel, The OT, and Judiasm as Gods chosen people, as heaven and earth.
> 
> ...



Referencing the "blue" above, I am not sure that all here (or anywhere) are confident in your mention of the law passing as Christ fulfilled it or that the mention of heaven and earth is consistently referring to the nation of Israel or the descendents of Israel.  

It would seem important to first distinguish between the useful and necessary application of the law and the power of the law, two separate issues. 

Christ's suffering on the cross rendered the law powerless against those whom He counts as His own. Jesus paid the price for our transgressions. The power and penalty of the law was cancelled for all who believe unto righteousness. It did not, however, render the law useless in showing us (the lost) our need for a redeemer or as a reminder of where we (the saved) stand in Christ. The law never had the power to save (as we could not keep it), only the power to condemn. Jesus took that condemnation and let himself and our sins be nailed to the cross. The role of law as to punishing the unrighteous is still in effect, unchanged. As it pertains to the righteous, it has been voided of any power to condemn. 

On the matter of "heaven and earth", the words can be used to denote the nation of Israel, especially in OT usage. It does not necessarily follow that all usages in Scripture do so. It is also used to communicate the totality of creation, a global meaning.

The part about the "Gospel going out" can be indicative of a process that, once initiated, is ongoing and not yet completed, either at the time of writing or even to this day. Such a reading would make the 70 A.D. position questionable.

I suppose one could pick a side and hammer away at a universal application in the narrow context of ones own choosing.

I prefer to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit..... to let the things that God has made flexible, flexible and the things He has made rigid, rigid. To do otherwise is to frustrate oneself to no good end, rebellious and futile. 
If I stand to be corrected, I know my Father will do so, most lovingly. Praise God, I only need to answer to Him.


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## StriperAddict (Jul 12, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> The first Christians faced horrible tribulations like the world has never seen, I suggest Foxx book of Martyrs if you have never read it, great stuff, and you will go away from it realizing how blessed we are today because of the faith they had then. John even notes in Revelations to his brothers in tribulation.


 
Yes, incredible book. I consider that and those "whom the world is not worthy of" in Heb. ch 11 a foretaste of that which is to come.  Another good source for presnt day martyrs is "Voice of the Martyrs" ministry.  It has been said (I cannot vouch for the authenticity) that in the last few decades the world has seen more martyrs for the faith than ever in the whole world. Either way, heart prep is in order for the time ahead.

I'll check back later. Tks 4 posting, regardless of the 'page' we are on. 

GTparts, great post, too


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## hobbs27 (Jul 12, 2012)

gtparts said:


> The role of law as to punishing the unrighteous is still in effect, unchanged. As it pertains to the righteous, it has been voided of any power to condemn.
> 
> .



Can you expound on this please? Ive read it a few times and I'm really not sure what you're saying here. thanks.

I'm heading to the hunting camp"pictured in my avatar" in KY in the morning to bushhog some fields and clean up, so I'll have plenty of time this weekend to clear my mind, meditate and talk to the Lord about all this. Seems like He connects with me really well while I'm sitting on a tractor.


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## hummerpoo (Jul 12, 2012)

gtparts said:


> Referencing the "blue" above, I am not sure that all here (or anywhere) are confident in your mention of the law passing as Christ fulfilled it or that the mention of heaven and earth is consistently referring to the nation of Israel or the descendents of Israel.
> 
> It would seem important to first distinguish between the useful and necessary application of the law and the power of the law, two separate issues.
> 
> ...



Thank you Brother, for an excellent post.  It's cordiality is an inspiration to me.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 15, 2012)

Something to ponder on.
http://ecclesia.org/truth/revelation.html


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## Israel (Jul 15, 2012)

No law can produce mercy.
No law can produce love.
The working of the law upon the flesh does precisely what it is intended to do...whether one lived 250 years ago, 2500 years ago...or perhaps even, tomorrow.
The thing that thinks the law is there to "do" is precisely the thing it was given for.
The thing that thinks it can show its own righteousness is precisely the thing it gets out of the way of doing anything.


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## hummerpoo (Jul 16, 2012)

Israel said:


> No law can produce mercy.
> No law can produce love.
> The working of the law upon the flesh does precisely what it is intended to do...whether one lived 250 years ago, 2500 years ago...or perhaps even, tomorrow.
> The thing that thinks the law is there to "do" is precisely the thing it was given for.
> The thing that thinks it can show its own righteousness is precisely the thing it gets out of the way of doing anything.



The Law is illistration by the absurd?


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## Israel (Jul 16, 2012)

Rom 7:7  What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 
Rom 7:8  But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 
Rom 7:9  For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 
Rom 7:10  And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 
Rom 7:11  For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 
Rom 7:12  Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 
_Rom 7:13  Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. _
Rom 7:14  For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 
Rom 7:15  For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 
Rom 7:16  If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.


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## gtparts (Jul 16, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> Thank you Brother, for an excellent post.  It's cordiality is an inspiration to me.



I think that what I offered is a poor paraphrase (in part) of a true, excellent post. Romans 14 (I particularly like the readability of the NIV or NLT, but each to his own; KJV will do admirably if the meaning is clear to the reader.) is the source of that post, and much better said. I find it necessary to reread Scripture to keep me from wavering on my commitment to love God, love others, and serve all.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 9, 2012)

Here is a good read and answers many questions people have when they become confused about OT law.
http://voices.yahoo.com/living-under-law-9932111.html?cat=37


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## gtparts (Sep 10, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> Glad you are studying and researching, I would bring up this point so you can see I am not a Hyper preterist, it was a good article to show meaning of The Day of the Lord.
> from the site:
> 
> SOME DISTINCTIVE DOCTRINES OF SYSTEMATIZED HYPER PRETERISM
> ...



The question arises, ' To which judgement are you referring?'


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## gtparts (Sep 10, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> Can you expound on this please? Ive read it a few times and I'm really not sure what you're saying here. thanks.
> 
> I'm heading to the hunting camp"pictured in my avatar" in KY in the morning to bushhog some fields and clean up, so I'll have plenty of time this weekend to clear my mind, meditate and talk to the Lord about all this. Seems like He connects with me really well while I'm sitting on a tractor.



Those who look to the keeping of the law to save them will suffer the condemnation of the law, for all have sinned and come short.

 Those, who have placed their faith and eternal future on Christ's work on the cross and His resurrection, have already been judged to have the righteousness of Christ. Surely He hath borne our griefs and carried our sorrows, taking our guilt and punishment upon Himself.

The law is the measure by which we may see our unworthiness, but it is of no effect (powerless) on the believer. Let the redeemed of the Lord say so.


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## toddboucher (Sep 10, 2012)

Israel said:


> To all this I would also appeal for an understanding of these lines beyond your original posting... especially verse 19.
> 
> Mat 5:17  Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
> Mat 5:18  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
> ...



content is still vs 17 fulfil. Jesus was living in a ot world, AFTER he died and rose, the book of hebrews says he becan our high preist. And only at that point is the law fulfilled. Now Paul say's you who want to be justified by the law are really fallen from grace. 
Same reason scripture show believers coming together on the 1st day of the week and not the 6th, which was required under the law. Romans 15 we see peter saying why would we want to put these new belivers under the bondage of the law were neither us or are fathers are able to keep. 

That all said, if the Lord is impressing you to follow a diet law or anyother thats personal conviction and you need to follow it. But it's for you. Years ago about 10 now God inpressed on my heart to give up french fries and I did, I can't tell others to do the same because its a personal conviction.

lovin one another is the fruit which lasts.

my 2 cents


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## hobbs27 (Sep 10, 2012)

gtparts said:


> The question arises, ' To which judgement are you referring?'



The only one I know of.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 10, 2012)

Since it seems that every discussion of the Law brings out multiple arguments that keeping the Law can not bring salvation, it occurs to me to ask; 
who has argued that keeping the Law is a way to salvation?


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## gtparts (Sep 10, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> Since it seems that every discussion of the Law brings out multiple arguments that keeping the Law can not bring salvation, it occurs to me to ask;
> who has argued that keeping the Law is a way to salvation?



Many Jews in centuries past, all the way up to the present as well as some uninformed "Christians" see works of the individual as a way to salvation. As a side, many Jews of Jesus' day thought having Abraham as an ancestor justified them before God. Such thinking was openly refuted in a few NT books, by God-inspired writers.


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## gtparts (Sep 10, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> The only one I know of.



A thorough reading of Scripture shows a number of judgments, past, present, and future. I rather suspect that you mean one of those yet to take place. Here's a link...  http://bible.org/article/judgments-past-present-and-future   that may help. The judgments yet-to-come are in the latter portion.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 10, 2012)

gtparts said:


> Many Jews in centuries past, all the way up to the present as well as some uninformed "Christians" see works of the individual as a way to salvation. As a side, many Jews of Jesus' day thought having Abraham as an ancestor justified them before God. Such thinking was openly refuted in a few NT books, by God-inspired writers.



Sorry, my intended reference was within our discussion on this forum.


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## gtparts (Sep 10, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> Sorry, my intended reference was within our discussion on this forum.



That being the case, I concede that I find no such declarations in this thread (which is not to say that those who see their own efforts to be essential to salvation have  not read or contributed in other ways to this thread).


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## hobbs27 (Sep 10, 2012)

gtparts said:


> A thorough reading of Scripture shows a number of judgments, past, present, and future. I rather suspect that you mean one of those yet to take place. Here's a link...  http://bible.org/article/judgments-past-present-and-future   that may help. The judgments yet-to-come are in the latter portion.



This is where we part understandings of scripture.I believe all that is fulfilled and most as being a misunderstanding of the judgement that fell on Israel in 70 ad.
 There is only one judgement I know of that is present, and it began at Calvary, and for me ended in 1984 when I accepted Him.I am a once saved always saved person, for what God seals no man can open.
 There is a seperation coming known as the Great White Throne judgement, and this is where I part from the hyper preterist. I believe there is an end to this place we call Earth.So there could be two judgements I suppose,a judgement of the ungodly, but I consider the latter a seperation more than a judgement since my judgement came at Calvary.
 There are many ways of translating the word of God and man has taken all of them, but you and I both agree that without Christ there is no hope? Just this understanding alone folks can still worship in one mind and one accord, IMO.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 10, 2012)

gtparts said:


> That being the case, I concede that I find no such declarations in this thread (which is not to say that those who see their own efforts to be essential to salvation have  not read or contributed in other ways to this thread).



GT, please understand that I am fully aware of the weakness of the media we are using, and my poor abilities, before I start.  I greatly fear that I will appear much more argumentative than I intend.

It appears that you may read too much into the view of scripture taken by some.  If I may be forgiven for using your words as an example. "The law is the measure by which we may see our unworthiness, but it is of no effect (powerless) on the believer."  I do not understand you to say that an understanding of the believer's unworthiness, brought about by the law, does not effect his  humility before a Holy God.

In the middle of his explaining the effect of the law to which you refer, through the personification of sin, Paul stated "So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good" (Rm. 7:12); hardly attributes which would have no effect on the believer.  Furthermore, understanding the Law to be all that Paul stated it to be, does not mean that one looks to the Law for salvation.


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## gtparts (Sep 11, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> GT, please understand that I am fully aware of the weakness of the media we are using, and my poor abilities, before I start.  I greatly fear that I will appear much more argumentative than I intend.
> 
> It appears that you may read too much into the view of scripture taken by some.  If I may be forgiven for using your words as an example. "The law is the measure by which we may see our unworthiness, but it is of no effect (powerless) on the believer."  I do not understand you to say that an understanding of the believer's unworthiness, brought about by the law, does not effect his  humility before a Holy God.
> 
> In the middle of his explaining the effect of the law to which you refer, through the personification of sin, Paul stated "So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good" (Rm. 7:12); hardly attributes which would have no effect on the believer.  Furthermore, understanding the Law to be all that Paul stated it to be, does not mean that one looks to the Law for salvation.



Perhaps it is no more than semantics. Without a doubt, the verse states the proper approach to the Law. 

"So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good" (Rm. 7:12) Even so, God saw fit, for our sake, to provide a way of escaping the condemnation of the Law. That way is through Christ. 

Christ's sacrifice accomplished at least two things: 1) Our expiation (believers were/are made guiltless before God) and 2) God's holy and righteous demand for justice according to His sovereign Lordship was propitiated (lawfully satisfied) in the death of His Son on the cross.

The purpose of the Law may be to show the guilt, that some may be brought to Christ, but the only power it has is to condemn those found guilty. In that sense, the Law is powerless against the believer. Christ has carried our sin to the cross and accepted our punishment for us. The Law can not be used to condemn us. Nevertheless, the Accuser has no problem throwing up the argument that our failures are cause to doubt God's ability to keep us. Are we to return to the Law that condemns or remain in the grace extended towards us at the cross?


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## gordon 2 (Sep 11, 2012)

Permit me to be infantile or to regress. When I was a young child, my mother would harness me and put me on a lead tied to the front steps.( I am told I had a tendency to walk in the middle of the road and wave "Hi there."to the truck drivers!  She mostly told me do this, don't do that. "Don't go near the ditch with your tricycle." 

As I grew up at some point that harness came off...but she still checked me with a mentoring harness... "Respect girls." "Ask before you take things." "Don't put our neighbours down, you never know when you will need them." "Wash yourself, keep yourself clean." "Don't drain your cut facial hair, it clogs the drain wipe them out of the sink with paper towel and discard the towel." "Don't act up and talk loud in church."

And my dad, "Before pulling the trigger make sure it's a deer and not a logger." "Don't chase after loose wimen."

Now when I got to be an adult... I realized what "really" was their lesson to me. And that lesson was from observing them over 20 yrs, from infancy to adulthood. The lesson was not from the Do Do This or Thats. The lesson was ..........how much they loved each other and me, enought to go through 20 yrs of Don't and Dos until their examples of loving behaviours sunk in my thick skull.

My mom and dad forgave, forgot, shared, helped (loved) etc each other and others including myself. It was for their efforts to love that their lives were a success in my eyes. It was not because they checked my every move. ( (Although I needed checking.) It is not that their laws were not good, they were...but there was an even greater purpose, which they had for me and it was learning, knowing how to love. And this had little to do with do's and dont's. I learned how to love from their examples.

In many ways... I think this is why God gave Moses the law... It permitted a stiff-necked people to have enought time with God so they could study, research, live and learn from the examples of His dealings with HIS chosen people. They needed the law...so they could stay put and quiet long enough to see, live and learn from God.

Not all of the chosen people were lost when Jesus was born. Mary and John the Baptist's mom and dad( a rabbi) were not "law" people. The Holy Spirit was lively in their lives according to my view... lively in the sense that Isaiah and the prophets were -- In The Spirit. 

The law is a harness...but the lesson that bring about mature life is in how God showed how love is important via the prophets for example....God that made his chosen sacrafice, but then could say to them, "It is not sacrafice I want." It is this other greater lesson that informs Jesus and the apostles and ultimately us.

The law was/still is a harness...until we realize that we are born again in Jesus, a brother and so his father ours now... we who are or are on our way to become adults in the faith.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 11, 2012)

gtparts said:


> Perhaps it is no more than semantics. Without a doubt, the verse states the proper approach to the Law.
> 
> "So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good" (Rm. 7:12) Even so, God saw fit, for our sake, to provide a way of escaping the condemnation of the Law. That way is through Christ.
> 
> ...




It's going to take a while for me to figure out why we would want to escape the condemnation of the Law, since, as Paul explains (Rm. 7:1-8:8), that which the Law condemns is the flesh (We're not talking about justification, right?  We know that the Law does not justify).


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## hummerpoo (Sep 11, 2012)

gordon 2 said:


> Permit me to be infantile or to regress. When I was a young child, my mother would harness me and put me on a lead tied to the front steps.( I am told I had a tendency to walk in the middle of the road and wave "Hi there."to the truck drivers!  She mostly told me do this, don't do that. "Don't go near the ditch with your tricycle."
> 
> As I grew up at some point that harness came off...but she still checked me with a mentoring harness... "Respect girls." "Ask before you take things." "Don't put our neighbours down, you never know when you will need them." "Wash yourself, keep yourself clean." "Don't drain your cut facial hair, it clogs the drain wipe them out of the sink with paper towel and discard the towel." "Don't act up and talk loud in church."
> 
> ...



I like your analogy (question the highlight a little).  If this leaky brain of mine doesn't lose it I might steal it some day.


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## Israel (Sep 11, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> The Law is illistration by the absurd?


 You seem to have answered your own question, sort of, in your previous post regarding the law's effect upon the flesh.
It does its job perfectly.
Through the law...what needs to die...dies to the law...free to be married to another.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 11, 2012)

Israel said:


> You seem to have answered your own question, sort of, in your previous post regarding the law's effect upon the flesh.
> It does its job perfectly.
> Through the law...what needs to die...dies to the law...free to be married to another.



I'm a "quick study", huh?  less than 2 months.


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## Israel (Sep 11, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> I'm a "quick study", huh?  less than 2 months.



Ha!...I trust you know it wasn't anything but my seeing you already well understood of what you spoke...just the poverty of my communication in perhaps causing it to seem an illustration of the absurd.
I suppose it has something to do with the law being spiritual...which we previously ASSUMED we understood...but only truly come to understand when born of the spirit.
We may say..."why speak to a carnal man of spiritual things you know he will not be able to discern, Lord?"


But perhaps it is precisely to get us to the "last word" God had always intended to speak...so we could then look back and say "ahhh..." after we receive God's last word in all things...and then see Him...even there...from the beginning...before our ears were even formed.
Perfectly framing all...beginning to end. Alpha and Omega.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 11, 2012)

Israel said:


> Ha!...I trust you know it wasn't anything but my seeing you already well understood of what you spoke...just the poverty of my communication in perhaps causing it to seem an illustration of the absurd.
> I suppose it has something to do with the law being spiritual...which we previously ASSUMED we understood...but only truly come to understand when born of the spirit.
> We may say..."why speak to a carnal man of spiritual things you know he will not be able to discern, Lord?"
> 
> ...



The most inexpressable awe comes from the daily realization that He is "with" us.


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## Israel (Sep 12, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> The most inexpressable awe comes from the daily realization that He is "with" us.




AMEN!
Speaking even when I am not listening!
Walking with me as I don't even look his way!
YES! Amen, brother.


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## gtparts (Sep 12, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> It's going to take a while for me to figure out why we would want to escape the condemnation of the Law, since, as Paul explains (Rm. 7:1-8:8), that which the Law condemns is the flesh (We're not talking about justification, right?  We know that the Law does not justify).



It might be easier to ask why anyone would want to experience the condemnation of the Law. 

Here, Paul's teachings are directed in chapter 1, verse 7 to the church at Rome. Apparently, Paul addresses at least a portion of the church who do not fully comprehend the nature of the Law. They seem to still cling to (or are somewhat confused about) the idea that works contrary to the Law have eternal implications. 

For the typical Jew (and even a segment of the gentile population) of that day, such a position was quite common and commonly taught. This is true, even today, for those people in the general population who see adherence to the Law as a means of justification. It is often expressed in relative terms, "I'm not as bad as....".

The Law still has purpose for the saved. It still has purpose for the lost. They are not necessarily the same.

For the saved, it is the Law-Giver that matters, far more than the Law. The Law reveals the path God would have each take. It reveals the character of God what He values by His very nature. 

To the lost, the Law is a yolk to enslave, a restriction of personal freedom, or a hill to be conquered, rather than the grace of a loving God. Gordie touched on the parental nature of God's love.

So, the Law does not have the same impact on everyone. Some are moved to rebellion. Some are moved to mastery of every jot and tittle. And, those who understand it can be made free in Christ.


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## Israel (Sep 12, 2012)

I cannot but stand in awe of the God who is able, with TOTAL  authority to speak to a deaf creation all the things it shall be by his word. And by that very word of power to form, through a faith delivered by One, out of unhearing and unheeding vessels of clay, all he has ever desired to have fellowship with.

Let us make man in our image and our likeness.

How that has been done is wonderful in my sight.
All, from start to glorious finish, by the power of his Word.
Made known to us.
All glory to the Word of God...and to his Name, Jesus.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 13, 2012)

Israel said:


> I cannot but stand in awe of the God who is able, with TOTAL  authority to speak to a deaf creation all the things it shall be by his word. And by that very word of power to form, through a faith delivered by One, out of unhearing and unheeding vessels of clay, all he has ever desired to have fellowship with.
> 
> Let us make man in our image and our likeness.
> 
> ...



Yes.  And it is the law of Christ that I live by now.  Actually, there is no other law.  The law of Love.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 13, 2012)

http://voices.yahoo.com/when-will-god-end-covenant-9016639.html?cat=37


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## Ronnie T (Sep 13, 2012)

If there is a new covenant, then what is to be with the old covenant?

I believe the Bible asks and answers the above question in a clear and concise way.


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## Israel (Sep 13, 2012)

Yes...a new covenant...something is that never was before. 

Something forever and always NEW.

A man in the perfect image and likeness of God...as promised...one NEW man...


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## gordon 2 (Sep 13, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> If there is a new covenant, then what is to be with the old covenant?
> 
> I believe the Bible asks and answers the above question in a clear and concise way.



I am a dunce when it comes to the Bible...but I am seeing in my heart that it says (Paul), "Put it away." And (Jesus), "Pick up your gurney. Follow me."


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## gordon 2 (Sep 13, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> I like your analogy (question the highlight a little).  If this leaky brain of mine doesn't lose it I might steal it some day.



People who have leaky brains are my heros.( I kid you not.) They make Olympic weight lifters  and other hi-achievers look like couch potatoes.  The bit is yours...as you see fit.

Peace bros. ( Dear Lord, Let us make lemonaids out of our  lemons. Amen.)


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## Ronnie T (Sep 14, 2012)

gordon 2 said:


> I am a dunce when it comes to the Bible...but I am seeing in my heart that it says (Paul), "Put it away." And (Jesus), "Pick up your gurney. Follow me."




"Pick up your gurney. Follow Me."  .... may describe the new covenant as well as any other words heard from God.


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