# In general, do atheists believe that evil exists?



## RegularJoe (Sep 20, 2021)

In general, do atheists believe that evil exists?  Thanks.


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## georgiabound (Sep 20, 2021)

If they don't believe in good, they shouldn't believe in evil.

Can't have one without the other.


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## Newt2 (Sep 20, 2021)

I believe in both because it is a state of mind. What I don't believe is that someone else controls that.


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## gawildlife (Sep 20, 2021)

Only when it's convenient.


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## RegularJoe (Sep 20, 2021)

Newt2 said:


> I believe in both because it is a state of mind. What I don't believe is that someone else controls that.


Thanks Newt ... then 
(in no way am i endeavoring to speak for you with this comment ... 
merely, earnestly trying to learn about atheism) ... 
is that to say _for you_ when you say "... it is a state of mind..." 
that evil is a perception and not a reality?


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## Newt2 (Sep 20, 2021)

RegularJoe said:


> evil is a perception and not a reality?


It is a perception until one acts on that perception to make it reality.


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## WaltL1 (Sep 20, 2021)

I label myself as Agnostic so hope its ok to answer but......
I believe people do things that would be considered evil by most folks.
Im not convinced "evil" is a thing that exists on its own.... if that makes sense.


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## ambush80 (Sep 20, 2021)

What do you mean by 'evil'?  A malevolent force that only works to create suffering and misery?  The word we use to describe motives and actions that create suffering and misery?  Can only humans do evil?  

What do mean by 'good'?  Actions and motives that increase flourishing and pleasure?  The absence of suffering?  Acts of selfless sacrifice?


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## ambush80 (Sep 20, 2021)

I don't see any reason to believe in a malevolent force, if that's what you're asking. I see material acting on other material and we give those actions and effects names to describe the level to which we would like those things minimized or reproduced.


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## ambush80 (Sep 20, 2021)

Life itself seems to be a force or system that creates suffering and misery with interspersed moments of pleasure and joy.


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## CarolinaDawg (Sep 20, 2021)

ambush80 said:


> I don't see any reason to believe in a malevolent force, if that's what you're asking. I see material acting on other material and we give those actions and effects names to describe the level to which we would like those things minimized or reproduced.



Just for clarity, humans are materials that act on other materials.   Are all materials equal? Is a human the same as a horse?


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## CarolinaDawg (Sep 20, 2021)

ambush80 said:


> Life itself seems to be a force or system that creates suffering and misery with interspersed moments of pleasure and joy.


What is this force and where does it come from?


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## ambush80 (Sep 20, 2021)

CarolinaDawg said:


> Just for clarity, humans are materials that act on other materials.   Are all materials equal? Is a human the same as a horse?


 
Yes. Humans are material acting on other material.  An apple falling on your head is material acting on other material.  

Equal to who? Gold is more important to me than a horse, who might find salt more important.  

Same as a horse how?  What it's made of?  What it's capable of?  How combustible it is?  You get where I'm going.....


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## ambush80 (Sep 20, 2021)

CarolinaDawg said:


> What is this force and where does it come from?



As far as I understand it, meaning, as far as I can tell, life seems to be a self perpetuating, self replicating process of chemical and electrical reactions.  I don't know where or how it started.


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## Ruger#3 (Sep 20, 2021)

Respectfully, these are tough but often interesting discussions. I read here more than I post. Two people of different perspectives see exactly the same thing and have opposing views. For me watching a mammal birth and seeing a creature switch from fluid to air breathing in a nanosecond is awe inspiring. I see a force at work beyond the human, others don’t. It‘s “just” nature. As I’ve I read and watched here the dramatic difference in people is what they will accept or will not accept on spiritual faith, whatever that is to the individual. There is no test tube to look at, no electron microscope to peer through for evidence. It’s spiritual for some and not for others. Hence the good or bad forces perceived by some are outcomes for others. Sorry for my gross simplification.


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## ambush80 (Sep 20, 2021)

Ruger#3 said:


> Respectfully, these are tough but often interesting discussions. I read here more than I post. Two people of different perspectives see exactly the same thing and have opposing views. For me watching a mammal birth and seeing a creature switch from fluid to air breathing in a nanosecond is awe inspiring. I see a force at work beyond the human, others don’t. It‘s “just” nature. As I’ve I read and watched here the dramatic difference in people is what they will accept or will not accept on spiritual faith, whatever that is to the individual. There is no test tube to look at, no electron microscope to peer through for evidence. It’s spiritual for some and not for others. Hence the good or bad forces perceived by some are outcomes for others. Sorry for my gross simplification.



Nope.  You nailed it, rock solid.

We all interpret things through our own lens.  There are things that are awe inspiring, despite knowing how they happen on a material level.  I feel that every time I see jumbo jet fly.  There are many, many things, infinitely many, that we still don't understand on a material level.


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## Ruger#3 (Sep 20, 2021)

ambush80 said:


> Nope.  You nailed it, rock solid.
> 
> We all interpret things through our own lens.  There are things that are awe inspiring, despite knowing how they happen on a material level.  I feel that every time I see jumbo jet fly.  There are still many things that we still don't understand on a material level.



Now your speaking my language. I know this guy Bernoulli figured it out long ago and the principle explains flight. However, when I worked 747s I‘d look at numbers, wait, we’re about to make something nearly a million pounds fly. After years still gives one pause.


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## WaltL1 (Sep 20, 2021)

ambush80 said:


> What do you mean by 'evil'?  A malevolent force that only works to create suffering and misery?  The word we use to describe motives and actions that create suffering and misery?  Can only humans do evil?
> 
> What do mean by 'good'?  Actions and motives that increase flourishing and pleasure?  The absence of suffering?  Acts of selfless sacrifice?





> The word we use to describe motives and actions that create suffering and misery?


Thats ^ basically how I see the word "evil". A descriptive word that we as humans have come up with that describes actions/motives. And even that can get complicated. Chop up a child up abuser into small pieces. Good? Or Evil? Good because they deserve it? Evil because you are intentionally creating suffering and pain?
All depends on how the individual looks at it. Also may depend on if you are the one doing the chopping or if you are the one being chopped. Complicated.


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## bullethead (Sep 20, 2021)

georgiabound said:


> If they don't believe in good, they shouldn't believe in evil.
> 
> Can't have one without the other.


Why wouldn't an atheist believe in "good"? It takes a theist to link "good" with a "god".
It takes a person, a human to do good to do bad, to be good to be evil. Both exist and are actions of humans.  No other species blames or gives credit to something else for it's own actions.


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## bullethead (Sep 20, 2021)

Ruger#3 said:


> Respectfully, these are tough but often interesting discussions. I read here more than I post. Two people of different perspectives see exactly the same thing and have opposing views. For me watching a mammal birth and seeing a creature switch from fluid to air breathing in a nanosecond is awe inspiring. I see a force at work beyond the human, others don’t. It‘s “just” nature. As I’ve I read and watched here the dramatic difference in people is what they will accept or will not accept on spiritual faith, whatever that is to the individual. There is no test tube to look at, no electron microscope to peer through for evidence. It’s spiritual for some and not for others. Hence the good or bad forces perceived by some are outcomes for others. Sorry for my gross simplification.


I don't think "just" Nature is any less impressive or awe inspiring or miraculous than others think "just" God.


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## ambush80 (Sep 20, 2021)

WaltL1 said:


> Thats ^ basically how I see the word "evil". A descriptive word that we as humans have come up with that describes actions/motives. And even that can get complicated. Chop up a child up abuser into small pieces. Good? Or Evil? Good because they deserve it? Evil because you are intentionally creating suffering and pain?
> All depends on how the individual looks at it. Also may depend on if you are the one doing the chopping or if you are the one being chopped. Complicated.



Which is why people long ago found it useful to subcontract the punishment to other agencies.  Even if one could, would they themselves torture someone who wronged them for eternity, regardless of what that person did?  Who has the will or the time? That person would be considered as evil as the one being tortured.


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## ambush80 (Sep 20, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Why wouldn't an atheist believe in "good"? It takes a theist to link "good" with a "god".
> It takes a person, a human to do good to do bad, to be good to be evil. Both exist and are actions of humans.  No other species blames or gives credit to something else for it's own actions.




I dunno bout that.  All social animals have ways of correcting each other. A dog that gets out of line gets his eat bit cause he "done bad".  They have their own codes.


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## ambush80 (Sep 20, 2021)

Ruger#3 said:


> Now your speaking my language. I know this guy Bernoulli figured it out long ago and the principle explains flight. However, when I worked 747s I‘d look at numbers, wait, we’re about to make something nearly a million pounds fly. After years still gives one pause.



Someone someday may figure out how to mix some stuff together in just the right way and it will be alive.  It will still be very cool, like growing Seamonkeys.


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## bullethead (Sep 20, 2021)

ambush80 said:


> I dunno bout that.  All social animals have ways of correcting each other. A dog that gets out of line gets his eat bit cause he "done bad".  They have their own codes.


Accepted behavior and correction is one thing. A dog holding up 2 milk bones in the sign of a cross at another dog is something I have yet to hear about let alone see.


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## ambush80 (Sep 20, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Accepted behavior and correction is one thing. A dog holding up 2 milk bones in the sign of a cross at another dog is something I have yet to hear about let alone see.



Chimps do curious things like rock stacking that some speculate are proto-religious. They could just be making art.  We'll never know until we can ask them and they can tell us.

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...ples-tell-us-about-the-evolution-of-religion/


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## ambush80 (Sep 20, 2021)

Koko the gorilla that knew sign language knew the words 'good' and 'bad'.  It seemed to associate them with the same things we do.  I don't think it knew the word 'evil'.  How would you teach it the meaning of 'evil'?  Maybe explain to it that something that 'only does bad' is 'evil'.


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## bullethead (Sep 20, 2021)

ambush80 said:


> Chimps do curious things like rock stacking that some speculate are proto-religious. They could just be making art.  We'll never know until we can ask them and they can tell us.
> 
> https://www.newscientist.com/articl...ples-tell-us-about-the-evolution-of-religion/


I have read about the primates doing such things. I can see those actions being along the lines of remembrance of deceases family members, mates or friends. Much like our early ancestors did. Like you said though, we won't know until they can tell us.


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## bullethead (Sep 20, 2021)

ambush80 said:


> Koko the gorilla that knew sign language knew the words 'good' and 'bad'.  It seemed to associate them with the same things we do.  I don't think it knew the word 'evil'.  How would you teach it the meaning of 'evil'?  Maybe explain to it that something that 'only does bad' is 'evil'.


Koko definitely had the ability to learn, understand and communicate in human ways. I often think we have just honed our primate abilities.


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## Ruger#3 (Sep 20, 2021)

bullethead said:


> I don't think "just" Nature is any less impressive or awe inspiring or miraculous than others think "just" God.



Fair point, I guess it’s how one explain away all those miraculous interactions. The birds rides the critter to eat the insects and the critter doesn’t get ill. The fish that would starve but for hitching a ride on the bigger fish. Natures web is so intricate and complete.


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## ambush80 (Sep 20, 2021)

Ruger#3 said:


> Fair point, I guess it’s how one explain away all those miraculous interactions. The birds rides the critter to eat the insects and the critter doesn’t get ill. The fish that would starve but for hitching a ride on the bigger fish. Natures web is so intricate and complete.



That's debatable.  Many things in nature are poorly designed and could have been easily improved upon, by our (or Toyota's) standards. 

But if you look at those qualities not as flaws but as mysterious, quirky curiosities of a Designer, then you'll have a different opinion of them.


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## Ruger#3 (Sep 20, 2021)

ambush80 said:


> That's debatable.  Many things in nature are poorly designed and could have been easily improved upon, by our (or Toyota's) standards.
> 
> But if you look at those qualities not as flaws but as mysterious, quirky curiosities of a Designer, then you'll have a different opinion of them.



Sometimes they are as designed and some other force, often us, has changed their circumstance to make them look less than they are.


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## ambush80 (Sep 20, 2021)

Ruger#3 said:


> Sometimes they are as designed and some other force, often us, has changed their circumstance to make them look less than they are.



That's right.  Our teeth and joints weren't designed to last more than 60 years or so, but we've gotten so good at keeping ourselves alive that we can overextend our warranty.  Makes them seem poorly designed.


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## RegularJoe (Sep 20, 2021)

Newt2 said:


> It is a perception until one acts on that perception to make it reality.


Got it. Thx.


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## RegularJoe (Sep 20, 2021)

ambush80 said:


> What do you mean by 'evil'?...


Dictionary.com
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/evil
"_noun:
1.  that which is evil; evil quality, intention, or conduct:to choose the lesser of two evils.
2.  the force in nature that governs and gives rise to wickedness and sin.
3.  the wicked or immoral part of someone or something:The evil in his nature has destroyed the good.
4.  harm; mischief; misfortune:to wish one evil.
5.  anything causing injury or harm:Tobacco is considered by some to be an evil.
6.  a harmful aspect, effect, or consequence:the evils of alcohol_."


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 20, 2021)

Just wanted to add, and it's been touched on, is that a lot of what we see as evil, really isn't in nature. 
Cancer, hurricanes, the things animals do to each other, etc. 

I don't think it's really a God believer vs Atheist type argument.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 20, 2021)

Maybe human evil is defined differently than natural evil. Are humans the only thing that can be evil? 
Well I guess their could be evil spirits or evil forces in nature. That would definitely make it a Religious vs Atheist question.


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## ambush80 (Sep 20, 2021)

RegularJoe said:


> Dictionary.com
> https://www.dictionary.com/browse/evil
> "_noun:
> 1.  that which is evil; evil quality, intention, or conduct:to choose the lesser of two evils.
> ...



You weren't referring to the adjective in the OP?

_adjective
morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked:_

Using any of these definitions makes 'evil' completely subjective.  I suppose it is.


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## RegularJoe (Sep 20, 2021)

Ambush - i was thinking the name of something, yeah, like a noun.  
But either way, _for me_, pretty-much works.  
Was just trying to understand ~ 
if i were an 'orthodox' atheist, 
then what i should be thinking about that which 
i should be thinking about 'evil.'
Thx.


ambush80 said:


> You weren't referring to the adjective in the OP?
> 
> _adjective
> morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked:_
> ...


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## ambush80 (Sep 20, 2021)

The Flatted 5th is the most evil of all the chord intervals.


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## ambush80 (Sep 20, 2021)

RegularJoe said:


> Ambush - i was thinking the name of something, yeah, like a noun.
> But either way, _for me_, pretty-much works.
> Was just trying to understand ~
> if i were an 'orthodox' atheist,
> ...



To be an "orthodox atheist" you simply have to not believe there's a God.  In practicality, one could still be agnostic, but have no reason to believe that a god exists.  Like saying "I don't know if there's a teapot on the moon, but I don't see any reason to believe there is one".  I think an atheist would use the idea of evil the same way as a believer in god would except maybe when it came to specific doctrine or laws.


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## ambush80 (Sep 20, 2021)

I didn't mean to be flippant about the "teapot on the moon" analogy.  Of course believing in God has a powerful influence on people's lives, more so than a belief in a lunar teapot, but only because of all the other ideas attached to it.  People who believe in God but don't think they could possibly understand how he/she/it works or what he/she/it wants are still affected by the idea.  It seems to give them a sense of order or transcendent purpose for their lives. That's pretty good. 

So far I haven't felt diminished without any of that.


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## CarolinaDawg (Sep 20, 2021)

ambush80 said:


> Yes. Humans are material acting on other material.  An apple falling on your head is material acting on other material.
> 
> Equal to who? Gold is more important to me than a horse, who might find salt more important.
> 
> Same as a horse how?  What it's made of?  What it's capable of?  How combustible it is?  You get where I'm going.....


Humans are different from every other “material” as you’ve defined it. What other material in the known universe can develop a complex language, invent the rocket and the mathematical calculations necessary to fly to the moon and back, develop schools, truly love another “material” , follow a moral code of conduct? Can we agree that humans are different?


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## Newt2 (Sep 20, 2021)

RegularJoe said:


> orthodox' atheist


What is an "orthodox" Atheist? Atheists simply do not believe in any god, Jesus, or anything associated with the myths.


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## Newt2 (Sep 20, 2021)

Just an observation to someone who said it seems only humans, not animals are evil (paraphrasing) What about a rabid animal? They have a disease in there mind to be evil. Do humans not show those same traits?


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## ambush80 (Sep 20, 2021)

CarolinaDawg said:


> Humans are different from every other “material” as you’ve defined it. What other material in the known universe can develop a complex language, invent the rocket and the mathematical calculations necessary to fly to the moon and back, develop schools, truly love another “material” , follow a moral code of conduct? Can we agree that humans are different?



Yes.  By some metrics, humans are substantially different than other materials. That's what I was asking him to define.  We're physically weaker than many other material arrangements.  Boiling point; we are the same as an elephant and a pond.  As far as "truly love another material", I can't possibly know.  Maybe my dog loves in a way that I couldn't possibly achieve.  I've heard people say that children with Down's Syndrome can love more deeply than the average person.  Is their love more like a dog's.  I dunno.


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## ambush80 (Sep 20, 2021)

Newt2 said:


> What is an "orthodox" Atheist? Atheists simply do not believe in any god, Jesus, or anything associated with the myths.


 
That's not really a term, but I understood the gist of what he was asking, so I went with it.  I'm assuming he meant it like "card carrying atheist".


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## ambush80 (Sep 20, 2021)

Newt2 said:


> Just an observation to someone who said it seems only humans, not animals are evil (paraphrasing) What about a rabid animal? They have a disease in there mind to be evil. Do humans not show those same traits?



If by evil you mean the rabid animal is acting immorally, then, no.  I don't think we can apply our morals to what animals do.


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## bullethead (Sep 20, 2021)

Newt2 said:


> Just an observation to someone who said it seems only humans, not animals are evil (paraphrasing) What about a rabid animal? They have a disease in there mind to be evil. Do humans not show those same traits?


In my opinion "evil" is a willful and purposeful intent to do bad things.
Rabid animals have a disease that makes them crazy. 
They do what they do beyond their own control. 
Now, if you see a fox laying under your vehicle loosening your brake lines....that would be a willful act with intentions to cause harm, chaos and death on purpose.


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## ky55 (Sep 20, 2021)

CarolinaDawg said:


> Humans are different from every other “material” as you’ve defined it. What other material in the known universe can develop a complex language, invent the rocket and the mathematical calculations necessary to fly to the moon and back, develop schools, truly love another “material” , follow a moral code of conduct? Can we agree that humans are different?


Seems like the same material to me. 
Humans have just evolved to a different level maybe?
All of those developments you mentioned have taken place in a tiny fraction of the time that’s passed since our ancestors stood up and walked on two legs.


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## ambush80 (Sep 20, 2021)

bullethead said:


> In my opinion "evil" is a willful and purposeful intent to do bad things.
> Rabid animals have a disease that makes them crazy.
> They do what they do beyond their own control.
> Now, if you see a fox laying under your vehicle loosening your brake lines....that would be a willful act with intentions to cause harm, chaos and death on purpose.



We call psychopaths evil, even though they have pathology out of their control that makes them do bad things.


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## ambush80 (Sep 20, 2021)

ky55 said:


> Seems like the same material to me.
> Humans have just evolved to a different level maybe?
> All of those developments you mentioned have taken place in a tiny fraction of the time that’s passed since our ancestors stood up and walked on two legs.



We are impressed by an arrangement of material (us) that's able to greatly influence other material.  It's interesting how fast that happened.  It would probably not be as impressive to a being that could blink things in and out of existence.


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## bullethead (Sep 20, 2021)

ambush80 said:


> We call psychopaths evil, even though they have pathology out of their control that makes them do bad things.


A rabid animal may bite you. Its condition will get worse until the rabies kills the infected host. A rabid animals progressively worsens.
A psychopath can live a long life. A psychopath can turn the psycho on and off most times. There is no infection slowly killing the host while causing the brain to act differently.  A psychopath has neurological problems, ie: bad wiring. The majority of psychopaths can function and fit in and among the rest of society. The actions of psychopaths may range from mild to Evil. Not every psychopath is evil but every rabid animal is rabid.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 20, 2021)

At what point in time did man stealing food or killing another man for food turn from non-evil to evil?  I say non-evil because it still doesn't seem "good" even for Co-Magnun man or even present day animals to do it. 
Does intent make it evil? A fish stealing or killing for food might not be evil because the fish doesn't have that thought process. I guess at some point man developed it.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 20, 2021)

What about the crimes a drug user performs? They say the aren't wanting to or don't have evil intent. The would rather not steal pain meds from their sick grandma. They do feel the guilt. They have remorse. 
Then again from a Christian aspect, we are born evil. Without intervention we are like the person with a drug addiction. So maybe intent doesn't really matter in defining evil.


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## Newt2 (Sep 20, 2021)

ambush80 said:


> That's not really a term, but I understood the gist of what he was asking, so I went with it.  I'm assuming he meant it like "card carrying atheist".


That's weird.


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## Newt2 (Sep 20, 2021)

ambush80 said:


> If by evil you mean the rabid animal is acting immorally, then, no.  I don't think we can apply our morals to what animals do.


Yet most people do.


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## Newt2 (Sep 20, 2021)

bullethead said:


> In my opinion "evil" is a willful and purposeful intent to do bad things.
> Rabid animals have a disease that makes them crazy.
> They do what they do beyond their own control.
> Now, if you see a fox laying under your vehicle loosening your brake lines....that would be a willful act with intentions to cause harm, chaos and death on purpose.


To me, most believers think that satan is making them evil and god is making them good. It is their own decision to swing either way, No one else can sway their personal goals.


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## bullethead (Sep 20, 2021)

Newt2 said:


> To me, most believers think that satan is making them evil and god is making them good. It is their own decision to swing either way, No one else can sway their personal goals.


I would think that if two such entities like Satan and God existed, the manipulation of humans are petty parlor tricks. 
It seems to me that humans are always looking for an excuse or a cause instead of owning up that this is what humans do.


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## RegularJoe (Sep 21, 2021)

Newt2 said:


> What is an "orthodox" Atheist? Atheists simply do not believe in any god, Jesus, or anything associated with the myths.





ambush80 said:


> That's not really a term, but I understood the gist of what he was asking, so I went with it.  I'm assuming he meant it like "card carrying atheist".





Newt2 said:


> That's weird.


Gentlemen:  i merely used the adjective 'orthodox' to be definitive to whatever the traditionally accepted views for atheists are 
(as previously posted, i am trying to learn what atheism is and is not.).....
As per Dictionary.com for your consideration:
"orthodox" -
1.  of, relating to, or conforming to the approved form of any doctrine, philosophy, ideology, etc.
2.  of, relating to, or conforming to beliefs, attitudes, or modes of conduct that are generally approved.


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## ambush80 (Sep 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> A rabid animal may bite you. Its condition will get worse until the rabies kills the infected host. A rabid animals progressively worsens.
> A psychopath can live a long life. A psychopath can turn the psycho on and off most times. There is no infection slowly killing the host while causing the brain to act differently.  A psychopath has neurological problems, ie: bad wiring. The majority of psychopaths can function and fit in and among the rest of society. The actions of psychopaths may range from mild to Evil. Not every psychopath is evil but every rabid animal is rabid.



The psychopathy might make him steal money from old ladies.

Maybe the Ohio State tower shooter is a better example.  He had a tumor in his head that was gonna keep growing and eventually kill him.


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## ambush80 (Sep 21, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> At what point in time did man stealing food or killing another man for food turn from non-evil to evil?  I say non-evil because it still doesn't seem "good" even for Co-Magnun man or even present day animals to do it.
> Does intent make it evil? A fish stealing or killing for food might not be evil because the fish doesn't have that thought process. I guess at some point man developed it.



These ideas of good and bad become less useful the more dire the situation, I think.  Like in apocalyptic stories, the characters are often put in situations where they have to act in ways that under normal circumstances we would call evil or immoral.  That probably means that we adjust our definitions of evil and immoral based on the situation.


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## bullethead (Sep 21, 2021)

ambush80 said:


> The psychopathy might make him steal money from old ladies.
> 
> Maybe the Ohio State tower shooter is a better example.  He had a tumor in his head that was gonna keep growing and eventually kill him.


Is stealing money from old lady's (or anyone) "evil"?

The tower shooter certainly had a self destruct button growing in his head. I think it is a byproduct of nature to have cells act abnormally,  but with the amount of frequency these cells go haywire I am begging to think it is more normal than we care to believe. If we are a created species, man we have some serious design flaws.
But back to the Tower guy. There wasn't some malevolent force from the dark depths of Hades taking control over the man's actions which caused him to be a life long menace to society. He had a tumor that caused him to snap. His acts were awful, inexcusable, unforgettable unforgivable but I don't know if Evil is the right word.
If he had hostages that he tortured for his own amusement then we are getting into the big E territory.


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## bullethead (Sep 21, 2021)

ambush80 said:


> These ideas of good and bad become less useful the more dire the situation, I think.  Like in apocalyptic stories, the characters are often put in situations where they have to act in ways that under normal circumstances we would call evil or immoral.  That probably means that we adjust our definitions of evil and immoral based on the situation.


It would be shocking and totally against societal limits to find out that your neighbor has been picking up hitchhikers and eating them.
If you are in a Plane wreck in the Andes mtns or part of the Donner party...morals change according to life's needs.


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## ambush80 (Sep 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Is stealing money from old lady's (or anyone) "evil"?
> 
> The tower shooter certainly had a self destruct button growing in his head. I think it is a byproduct of nature to have cells act abnormally,  but with the amount of frequency these cells go haywire I am begging to think it is more normal than we care to believe. If we are a created species, man we have some serious design flaws.
> But back to the Tower guy. There wasn't some malevolent force from the dark depths of Hades taking control over the man's actions which caused him to be a life long menace to society. He had a tumor that caused him to snap. His acts were awful, inexcusable, unforgettable unforgivable but I don't know if Evil is the right word.
> If he had hostages that he tortured for his own amusement then we are getting into the big E territory.



Unless the designer is perfect.  That we interpret things to be flawed is due to to our inability to comprehend the sublime perfection of the design; or so the argument might go.


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## NCHillbilly (Sep 21, 2021)

Without reading the whole discussion and just answering the original question:

Most athiests I have known in my life believe in good and evil just as strongly as most religious people. They just don't believe that all good comes from a benevolent supernatural being, and all evil comes from a malevolent supernatural being.


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## bullethead (Sep 21, 2021)

ambush80 said:


> Unless the designer is perfect.  That we interpret things to be flawed is due to to our inability to comprehend the sublime perfection of the design; or so the argument might go.


That perfect designer argument brings in the option that Evil is part of the design and we only interpret things to be evil even though they are happening as designed.


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## WaltL1 (Sep 21, 2021)

NCHillbilly said:


> Without reading the whole discussion and just answering the original question:
> 
> Most athiests I have known in my life believe in good and evil just as strongly as most religious people. They just don't believe that all good comes from a benevolent supernatural being, and all evil comes from a malevolent supernatural being.


Yep.
It all circles back to the individual. From there it can be broken down to a multitude of different reasons why individuals do what they do.


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## jollyroger (Sep 21, 2021)

ambush80 said:


> Life itself seems to be a force or system that creates suffering and misery with interspersed moments of pleasure and joy.


You would really like Thomas Ligotti's writing.


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## j_seph (Sep 21, 2021)

ambush80 said:


> Nope.  You nailed it, rock solid.
> 
> We all interpret things through our own lens.  There are things that are awe inspiring, despite knowing how they happen on a material level.  I feel that every time I see jumbo jet fly.  There are many, many things, infinitely many, that we still don't understand on a material level.


Sorry that just made me think of this

*1 Corinthians 13:12*
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.


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## ambush80 (Sep 21, 2021)

jollyroger said:


> You would really like Thomas Ligotti's writing.




I'll look into it.


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## ambush80 (Sep 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> That perfect designer argument brings in the option that Evil is part of the design and we only interpret things to be evil even though they are happening as designed.



It's not evil if He does it, like how our leaders ignore their own covid mandates.


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## bullethead (Sep 21, 2021)

ambush80 said:


> It's not evil if He does it, like how our leaders ignore their own covid mandates.


Then why call it Evil?


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## 1gr8buildit (Sep 21, 2021)

RegularJoe said:


> Gentlemen:  i merely used the adjective 'orthodox' to be definitive to whatever the traditionally accepted views for atheists are
> (as previously posted, i am trying to learn what atheism is and is not.).....
> As per Dictionary.com for your consideration:
> "orthodox" -
> ...


You have sparked an interesting discussion. Of which we come here for.... I would not want to derail your thread... however, the word orthodox in regards to belief of something, is very inmteresting. We use it like it's a factural word, however, it only represents the believing group that won the battle over a belief. We might say it was the "majority"... or one side had the most powerful voices supporting it... or one neutral person of power made it happen, like Constantine, intending peace. Or, ??? interested to see other perspectives.

The word "approved" is used in the definition. Approved by who? The side that won the battle....  the side that assumes they are right... Is there a survey we can see, a petition that has documented signatures.... Don't get me wrong, I still use the word "orthodox" even though I'm not in that group in regards to my religious beliefs


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## Israel (Sep 22, 2021)

ambush80 said:


> Unless the designer is perfect.  That we interpret things to be flawed is due to to our inability to comprehend the sublime perfection of the design; or so the argument might go.


yes.


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## WaltL1 (Sep 22, 2021)

ambush80 said:


> Unless the designer is perfect.  That we interpret things to be flawed is due to to our inability to comprehend the sublime perfection of the design; or so the argument might go.


To which one might respond -
If the design was perfect wouldnt we ALL (humanity) be able to comprehend the perfection?
No other religions, no other beliefs, no doubts, no questioning.......


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## RegularJoe (Sep 22, 2021)

ambush80 said:


> ... There are many, many things, infinitely many, that we still don't understand on a material level.


That is for dang sure ... and the older i get the less i know, compounded by the more questions i have .... which a biggie reason why i dig this forum (when the forum is civil).


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## hummerpoo (Sep 22, 2021)

RegularJoe said:


> That is for dang sure ... and the older i get the less i know, compounded by the more questions i have .... which a biggie reason why i dig this forum (when the forum is civil).



Only slightly different — the more I attempt to learn, the more questions I have. I read a little short article and the footnotes lead to multiple books.  There are so many rabbits it is difficult to stay on one scent trail.


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## RegularJoe (Sep 22, 2021)

1gr8buildit said:


> The word "approved" is used in the definition.
> Approved by who?
> The side that won the battle....  the side that assumes they are right...
> Is there a survey we can see, a petition that has documented signatures....
> Don't get me wrong, I still use the word "orthodox" even though I'm not in that group in regards to my religious beliefs


Observations appreciated/comprehended.
History books are just that, no?  : ))))
i spose 'definitions' are the product of us meeples _trying_ to establish just small beach heads of certainty in the massive complexity of everything?.....
What i spose i am_ trying_ to say,
& in support of at least part to all of what you are saying,...
definitions, in many cases, must be carefully regarded for the reasons you stated.
Now, you & i have me wondering ~
should we wonder who approved the definition for the noun "definition?"


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## Ruger#3 (Sep 22, 2021)

I‘ve often thought of the impact of societal norm of our definition of evil. It’s a sliding scale. Our early ancestors thought the natives evil as they bashed a captured child against a tree. I’m sure the native saw the child as something of no value, a burden and a threat to his very existence.

As I’ve aged and watched our societal norm of what is evil evolve it’s unsettling.


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## JB0704 (Sep 22, 2021)

Great thread fellas.  I miss these discussions, but drifted away from this forum a few years back because I felt like I said everything I had to say.  Hope you all are doing well.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 22, 2021)

Ruger#3 said:


> I‘ve often thought of the impact of societal norm of our definition of evil. It’s a sliding scale. Our early ancestors thought the natives evil as they bashed a captured child against a tree. I’m sure the native saw the child as something of no value, a burden and a threat to his very existence.
> 
> As I’ve aged and watched our societal norm of what is evil evolve it’s unsettling.


Yes even within say a mostly Christian nation, the defintions of morality change and what was once seen as evil is now accepted. Women can now wear gold and fancy hairdo's. Slavery is now frowned upon, views on homosexuality are changing, as is Man being the head of the woman like Jesus is the Church.
It sorta goes both ways really, some evil things are abandoned as we learn and some thigs what were once evil no longer are.


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## WaltL1 (Sep 22, 2021)

JB0704 said:


> Great thread fellas.  I miss these discussions, but drifted away from this forum a few years back because I felt like I said everything I had to say.  Hope you all are doing well.


Hey Brent good to hear from you.
I always enjoy your FB posts. Particularly those youngins catching fish!
I really respect the life you are providing for them.


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## WaltL1 (Sep 22, 2021)

hummerpoo said:


> Only slightly different — the more I attempt to learn, the more questions I have. I read a little short article and the footnotes lead to multiple books.  There are so many rabbits it is difficult to stay on one scent trail.


Thats a great way of putting it.


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## WaltL1 (Sep 22, 2021)

Ruger#3 said:


> I‘ve often thought of the impact of societal norm of our definition of evil. It’s a sliding scale. Our early ancestors thought the natives evil as they bashed a captured child against a tree. I’m sure the native saw the child as something of no value, a burden and a threat to his very existence.
> 
> As I’ve aged and watched our societal norm of what is evil evolve it’s unsettling.


Its interesting to me how what is considered "good" or "evil" kind of all depends on where you are standing.


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## bullethead (Sep 22, 2021)

WaltL1 said:


> Its interesting to me how what is considered "good" or "evil" kind of all depends on where you are standing.


The Germans wore Gott Mit Uns on their belt buckles. They also thought God was on their side and they were doing good.


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## JB0704 (Sep 22, 2021)

WaltL1 said:


> Hey Brent good to hear from you.
> I always enjoy your FB posts. Particularly those youngins catching fish!
> I really respect the life you are providing for them.




Thanks Walt, I appreciate you saying that.  We are definitely "livin' the dream!" down here.  I do hope you come visit one day.  If you like shooting doves or catching fish I got the place for both.


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## JB0704 (Sep 22, 2021)

bullethead said:


> The Germans wore Gott Mit Uns on their belt buckles. They also thought God was on their side and they were doing good.



Folks can convince themselves of darn near anything they want, particularly when it comes to God.  I was raised in a pretty dang strict "God wills it" sorta environment, where those in charge generally convinced themselves they were God's spokesman.  Logic wins the day for those who apply it.  Anybody who believes in God should also incorporate a ton of humility into their worldview (and in doing so this eliminates one's ability to speak for God).


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## Ruger#3 (Sep 22, 2021)

WaltL1 said:


> Its interesting to me how what is considered "good" or "evil" kind of all depends on where you are standing.



Walt, that’s the point exactly. What were you conditioned to as the “norm.”

IMHO, as society slips away from its norm the underpinnings rot and future events that would have been extreme are now the norm, desensitization.


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## bullethead (Sep 22, 2021)

JB0704 said:


> Folks can convince themselves of darn near anything they want, particularly when it comes to God.  I was raised in a pretty dang strict "God wills it" sorta environment, where those in charge generally convinced themselves they were God's spokesman.  Logic wins the day for those who apply it.  Anybody who believes in God should also incorporate a ton of humility into their worldview (and in doing so this eliminates one's ability to speak for God).



⅕


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## ambush80 (Sep 22, 2021)

JB0704 said:


> Great thread fellas.  I miss these discussions, but drifted away from this forum a few years back because I felt like I said everything I had to say.  Hope you all are doing well.



Good to see you too JB.


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## ambush80 (Sep 22, 2021)

JB0704 said:


> Folks can convince themselves of darn near anything they want, particularly when it comes to God.  I was raised in a pretty dang strict "God wills it" sorta environment, where those in charge generally convinced themselves they were God's spokesman.  Logic wins the day for those who apply it.  Anybody who believes in God should also incorporate a ton of humility into their worldview (and in doing so this eliminates one's ability to speak for God).



We just watched _Inherit the Wind _last night_.  _That  ^ was William Harrison Brady's downfall.


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## ambush80 (Sep 22, 2021)

JB0704 said:


> Thanks Walt, I appreciate you saying that.  We are definitely "livin' the dream!" down here.  I do hope you come visit one day.  If you like shooting doves or catching fish I got the place for both.




I still have that box of clays that I was gonna give you.....


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## JB0704 (Sep 22, 2021)

ambush80 said:


> I still have that box of clays that I was gonna give you.....



And the invite still stands my friend!  I’ll PM u, but come on in down!


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## RegularJoe (Sep 23, 2021)

JB0704 said:


> Folks can convince themselves of darn near anything they want, particularly when it comes to God.....
> where those in charge generally convinced themselves they were God's spokesman.


Having to listen to those in charge can be a real problem 
for any individual's own objective understanding of whatever god.
For those who have an interest in the objective personal understanding 
of the Christian God 
& not being feed whatever supposed related ideology from others,
such as those in charge, 
consider taking a look at this 1/2 page website that has been around for years .... 
www.TheBible.bz


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## bullgator (Sep 23, 2021)

I don’t believe in atheists.


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## bullethead (Sep 23, 2021)

bullgator said:


> I don’t believe in atheists.


An a-atheist, nice


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## 660griz (Oct 6, 2021)

*Steven Weinberg* once famously said, "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion."


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## 660griz (Oct 7, 2021)

bullgator said:


> I don’t believe in atheists.



What!!!!???? Then ye shall spend eternity with thorns under your nails and wet underwear, and...just kidding. We don't care.


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## gordon 2 (Oct 7, 2021)

JB0704 said:


> Folks can convince themselves of darn near anything they want, particularly when it comes to God.  I was raised in a pretty dang strict "God wills it" sorta environment, where those in charge generally convinced themselves they were God's spokesman.  Logic wins the day for those who apply it.  Anybody who believes in God should also incorporate a ton of humility into their worldview (and in doing so this eliminates one's ability to speak for God).




This little quirk is very evident in bible believing Christian cultures. Where "the bible says" and one is indoctrinated to " rightly discern context" there is no limit to what will come out " in the name of the Lord".

Also, I do believe that Christians believe in Atheists. Atheists are those folk who in good conscious chose to have no extra oil  for their lamps (Mathew 24). ( Some are sickened by the hypocrisy of Christians and much more.) Therefore it is impossible for Christians to deny the Atheist. For Atheists there is nothing after "the end". And if I have the right context in scripture  they are right and I have to believe in Atheists.


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## JB0704 (Oct 7, 2021)

660griz said:


> What!!!!???? Then ye shall spend eternity with thorns under your nails and wet underwear, and...just kidding. We don't care.



This made me lol ^^^


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## JB0704 (Oct 7, 2021)

gordon 2 said:


> This little quirk is very evident in bible believing Christian cultures. Where "the bible says" and one is indoctrinated to " rightly discern context" there is no limit to what will come out " in the name of the Lord".



I've seen it so many times.  Folks take what's there and spin it to what they want it to be.  I've seen churches purge members in the name of "biblical unity" because some folks didn't always agree with the preacher.  How they twisted themselves into that knot is beyond me.  Ignoring the warnings against pride and the recommendations to be humble is also something I got to witness a ton in my life.   Human nature I guess.  We see what we wanna see?  Regardless, I think it takes an awful lot of pride to say one can speak for God.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 7, 2021)

JB0704 said:


> I've seen it so many times.  Folks take what's there and spin it to what they want it to be.  I've seen churches purge members in the name of "biblical unity" because some folks didn't always agree with the preacher.  How they twisted themselves into that knot is beyond me.  Ignoring the warnings against pride and the recommendations to be humble is also something I got to witness a ton in my life.   Human nature I guess.  We see what we wanna see?  Regardless, I think it takes an awful lot of pride to say one can speak for God.


I think that if God exists, it takes a lot of assumption and exaggeration to even think that you could even vaguely begin to understand what it wants, much less speak for it.


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