# Banner weight my buddy found



## jigman29 (Oct 25, 2015)

My buddy found this a few years ago. It's in great shape and just thought I would share with you guys. Far as we can tell it was reed drilled as you can see inside how the hollow reed left the center inside. He has turned down several offers for it over the years. One guy offered him 2 grand.


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## Nicodemus (Oct 25, 2015)

That is a FINE bannerstone. A lot of work went into that beauty.


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## dtala (Oct 25, 2015)

as good as I've ever seen.


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## NE GA Pappy (Oct 25, 2015)

Ok.. I'll bite.

What is a banner weight?


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## Nicodemus (Oct 26, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Ok.. I'll bite.
> 
> What is a banner weight?





It`s a specially designed stone made to tie to an atlatl to give it more ooomph to the throw.


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## EAGLE EYE 444 (Oct 26, 2015)

Well this thread was very educational to me as now I have learned what a "banner weight" really is and I have also learned what an atlatl is also.

I had never heard of either one of them before reading this thread.

"Google" was my friend on the atlatl part of this thread.

Thanks to you jigman29 and NIC for your knowledge of such things.


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## kmckinnie (Oct 26, 2015)

Thanks for sharing.


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## runswithbeer (Oct 26, 2015)

They are pretty rare around my area, in many years of searching ive only found 1 and a couple of broke ones...very nice find


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## Forest Grump (Oct 26, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Ok.. I'll bite.
> 
> What is a banner weight?



Banner stones belong to a group of artifacts that are often referred to as "problematics", because it is not known for certain what they were really for, & the more you read the more theories/explanations somebody comes up with. 

As Nic said, the prevailing theory is that they were a counterweight on an atlatl, increasing the speed of the dart (increasing kinetic energy like limb weights on a bow). They have been found in burials in proximity to atlatl remnants, which fostered the hypothesis. Some people think they had ceremonial or spiritual significance, which stands to reason, & is not mutually exclusive (could be both right?). They are always very finely crafted, nearly always symmetrical & have a kind of "butterfly shape". The materials are usually highly decorative (pretty) & usually too soft for tools or utilitarian items. 

Around 1908, if I remember right, 3 were plowed up in a field in NC attached to bone handles, like they were some cermonial staff or scepter (hence they were given the term bannerstone). They are found all across the Eastern US, but are rare. Why? If they were atlatl weights, wouldn't every hunter have one? Seems like we'd find 'um like points, at village sites. It obviously took a lot of work to make one like the OP's; some have some interesting variations, but they all are recognizable as what they are. Maybe they were "lucky", or focused the Indian version of Chi to improve your aim, or warded off the evil eye? 

To me, it seems they had to have some sort of cultural significance beyond just making your atlatl "zing". What do y'all think?

Also: that thing is so pristine, your buddy might want to be a little careful who he shows it to; those are often included on lists of burial objects, & it's hard to prove they were found out of context when the official you're dealing with's artifact knowledge consists of: "It's on this list".


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## Nicodemus (Oct 26, 2015)

Forest Grump said:


> Banner stones belong to a group of artifacts that are often referred to as "problematics", because it is not known for certain what they were really for, & the more you read the more theories/explanations somebody comes up with.
> 
> As Nic said, the prevailing theory is that they were a counterweight on an atlatl, increasing the speed of the dart (increasing kinetic energy like limb weights on a bow). They have been found in burials in proximity to atlatl remnants, which fostered the hypothesis. Some people think they had ceremonial or spiritual significance, which stands to reason, & is not mutually exclusive (could be both right?). They are always very finely crafted, nearly always symmetrical & have a kind of "butterfly shape". The materials are usually highly decorative (pretty) & usually too soft for tools or utilitarian items.
> 
> ...




Good points.  One reason I think they are so rare is the work involved and the time in making one as nice as the one pictured above. I know a replicator here in Southwest Georgia who made one in the old ways, with the tools that the early people used, and drilled it with rivercane. That was a lot of work for something when an ordinary rock of the same weight and tied to an atlatl would serve the same purpose. A tremendous amount of time that could have been served for more useful pursuits. 

I`d love to find just a piece of one.


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## GLS (Oct 26, 2015)

That is a nice artifact.  The one depicted below is a fake.  The axe head isn't.  From Ohio.


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## QSVC (Oct 26, 2015)

I've seen several examples of banner stones that have notches kind of like how prisoners in the old movies kept track of the days in their sentence in the stone on the cell wall. Always just like: lllllll with no strike-through to denote/group them by 5's unlike our modern version. I saw one example of this from Lee Co GA (might have been on this forum-can't remember). I have only seen these online mind you, never in person. Anyway, it seems like some Indians kept a kill count notched in the weapon as man has done forever and still does to this day. Just a thought


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## Nicodemus (Oct 26, 2015)

QSVC said:


> I've seen several examples of banner stones that have notches kind of like how prisoners in the old movies kept track of the days in their sentence in the stone on the cell wall. Always just like: lllllll with no strike-through to denote/group them by 5's unlike our modern version. I saw one example of this from Lee Co GA (might have been on this forum-can't remember). I have only seen these online mind you, never in person. Anyway, it seems like some Indians kept a kill count notched in the weapon as man has done forever and still does to this day. Just a thought





I`ve seen a couple in private collections that had tally marks on them like that.


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## RNC (Oct 26, 2015)

So would this go on the Atlatl or the dart itself ?


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## Clifton Hicks (Oct 26, 2015)

Rock art from California.


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## Nicodemus (Oct 26, 2015)

RNC said:


> So would this go on the Atlatl or the dart itself ?



It ties to the atlatl.


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## chehawknapper (Oct 26, 2015)

In practical experience of making and using them, they are really only useful on flexible shaft atlatls. An atlatl is a simple mechanical lever that increases the length of the arm and the arc of the throw. Early atlatls needed to throw heavy darts/spears to penetrate thick hides of Pleistocene animals probably from short range. Later,when hunting smaller animals, heft was not as important as a greater distance of throw. The only way to provide more power is to increase the length of the lever or somehow load and release energy from the atlatl. The problem with making an atlatl that flexes is fine tuning the flex with the weight of the projectile so that you maximize the energy storage and release. That is where the atlatl weight comes in. By slight adjustment of where the weight is tied to the atlatl shaft, the flex can be fine tuned. Atlatls were developed all around the world but flexible atlatls are only found in n.america. Simply what I have found that works.


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## Jeff C. (Oct 26, 2015)

Very interesting, thanks for posting folks!


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## Pointpuller (Oct 26, 2015)

Thats a beautiful banner stone your friend found.  Atlatls were used worldwide but only in North America did they invent the banner stone to improve on it.  My opinion on their purpose  differs from the experts.  To me their is no way they would have spent the time and energy to make these tools simply to tie in place a weight to optimize the balance point or to get an added thrust.  They could have simply tied wrapped stones to the atlatl to achieve that.  I believe the banner stones were drilled to slide forward providing the extra UMPH just before the shaft was released.  To much time and energy went into the shaping and drilling of these tools for them not to be sliding.


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## Hooty Hoot (Oct 27, 2015)

Many years ago, 50 plus probably, I found a similar stone with a hole in the end. I no longer have it so I can not provide a picture. It was found in Arkansas if that provides any information. I always wondered what it was. This stone was shaped like a bar of Ivory soap with a perfectly round hole centered on one end. I memory serves me, it also had a nipple protruding from the bottom of the hole. Could this stone have been the same thing?


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## chehawknapper (Oct 27, 2015)

Sliding stones come to an abrupt stop making noise and spooking game. Many shapes were used around the country. Most of the western styles were simply tied on. They had notches for the ties to stay in place. Eastern styles were almost always drilled usually with the hole slightly closer to one of the flat sides. Bob Perkins, Atlatl Bob, theorizes that the wide butterfly style stones actually function as a sound suppressor. The wide stone disperses the air from around the atlatl shaft effectively eliminating the "swoosh" sound produced from the throw. I was with him at Rivercane Rendezvous back in the 90's when he actually noticed this happening. He then submitted his paper in the Society of Primitive Technology Bulletin.


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## Nicodemus (Oct 27, 2015)

chehawknapper said:


> Sliding stones come to an abrupt stop making noise and spooking game. Many shapes were used around the country. Most of the western styles were simply tied on. They had notches for the ties to stay in place. Eastern styles were almost always drilled usually with the hole slightly closer to one of the flat sides. Bob Perkins, Atlatl Bob, theorizes that the wide butterfly style stones actually function as a sound suppressor. The wide stone disperses the air from around the atlatl shaft effectively eliminating the "swoosh" sound produced from the throw. I was with him at Rivercane Rendezvous back in the 90's when he actually noticed this happening. He then submitted his paper in the Society of Primitive Technology Bulletin.





Ben, you remember that really finely crafted original we saw a couple of years ago that someone brought to show? The one that looked like it would break if you looked at it hard.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 27, 2015)

I've read Atlatl Bob's paper on the subject, and I've experimented with making all kinds of atlatls, darts, and weights. I have arrived at my personal conclusion that atlatl weights are much more of a hindrance than a help, to me at least. I see absolutely no practical advantage to making and using them, much like foreshafts on arrows..


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## Pointpuller (Oct 27, 2015)

chehawknapper said:


> Sliding stones come to an abrupt stop making noise and spooking game. Many shapes were used around the country. Most of the western styles were simply tied on. They had notches for the ties to stay in place. Eastern styles were almost always drilled usually with the hole slightly closer to one of the flat sides. Bob Perkins, Atlatl Bob, theorizes that the wide butterfly style stones actually function as a sound suppressor. The wide stone disperses the air from around the atlatl shaft effectively eliminating the "swoosh" sound produced from the throw. I was with him at Rivercane Rendezvous back in the 90's when he actually noticed this happening. He then submitted his paper in the Society of Primitive Technology Bulletin.



Good info.  Wouldnt it have been easy to put a soft padded leather pad at the top of the atlatl to quiet the abrupt loud stop when the banner stone hit the top?  It would have also cushioned the stone to keep it from breaking.  I dont know just asking.  Seems like way to much work went into the design if it wasnt meant to slide.


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## chehawknapper (Oct 27, 2015)

Nick, I do remember that one! NCHillbilly, I agree they are a royal pain and with the exception of their use on a flexible shaft, that needs fine tuning, they are not worth the effort. Experienced bow makers, who are used to tillering the much longer limbs of a bow, are quite capable of tillering a flexible atlatl shaft without needing the weight. Then it would only serve as a counter balance. Keep in mind that the first atlatl weights predate the bow and arrow by several thousand years. Maybe they simply had not developed the skill or concept of tillering yet - who knows? I have noticed, that when carefully done, they can make a difference with a flexible shaft to provide more power and distance. Just as a side note, I only make them for museums or for sale as replications. Point puller, to help clarify my comment on the sliding weight, let me comment on a common misconception. Look at and measure the diameter of the hole in the weight. Usually they are about 3/8" in diameter. If the weight was on the main shaft of an atlatl of that diameter, the power of the throw with the weight of the dart/spear against it would snap the shaft in two. I have never had one survive this test with a powerful throw. Instead, the weight is attached to a separate  stick which is tied fore and aft to the bottom of the atlatl. So, if the weight was supposed to slide, it would also be scraping along the bottom of the atlatl shaft. This will happen, whether intended or not, unless you wrap your buckskin thongs tight against the weight on each side.


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## Forest Grump (Oct 27, 2015)

I think you are correct: the sliding thing won't fly; if you think about it, the air pressure would rotate the bannerstone perpendicular to the direction of travel if it could slide. Now it's still just a weight. As Nic pointed out, you can do that with a symmetrical rock, why do you need such a fancy thing, unless it has symbolic value?

If I may, I'd like to offer a paper, written in 1921. Now, I recognize many intellects have added their input to this question since then. But I have never seen a description of a quarry & creation of "bannerstones" like this. I just thought it was interesting.

This link is from a Google search: when I tried to post a direct link to the paper, it said it was unauthorized. Hit the link, then the second option, entitled: "A Preliminary Report On The So-Called Bannerstones". 

http://www.google.com/search?q=bann...eliminary+report+on+the+so-called+bannerstone

I just found it interesting, especially considering the time; he had access to stuff you & I could never even look at...

Plus, they indicate, at least with slate, they can be created easier than we would think. 

Below the Fall Line, where there was no slate, what were these made of? How about the one in the OP, what is it made of?


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## Pointpuller (Oct 27, 2015)

Note sure what the original posters was made from but would like to know.  I found this one a few years ago in S.W. Ga.  Appears to be made of mudstone from those who have held it.


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## Kawaliga (Oct 28, 2015)

I have wondered if what are commonly called Bolen axes were actually "tie-on bannerstones". Most of the ones I have found are small enough so that weight would not be a limiting factor.


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## dalton257 (Nov 1, 2015)

Nice banner pointpuller and that one your buddy found jigman is unreal. I could honestly say I wouldnt sell for 2k either. Been searching a long time and havent found a whole one yet


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