# Who then is my neighbor?



## welderguy (Sep 20, 2019)

Can we all agree, based on Jesus' lesson of the good Samaritan, that we are all neighbors?
If so, can we also agree that we,as neighbors, are members, one of another? (Eph.4:25)


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## Spineyman (Sep 20, 2019)

We are indeed all neighbors, but we are not all of the house of faith!


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## welderguy (Sep 20, 2019)

Spineyman said:


> We are indeed all neighbors, but we are not all of the house of faith!



That's true. But I don't see Eph. 4 making that distinction when it says we are members one of another. Do you?


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## NE GA Pappy (Sep 20, 2019)

welderguy said:


> That's true. But I don't see Eph. 4 making that distinction when it says we are members one of another. Do you?



you don't see Eph 4:25 speaking to believers, and not the unbelievers????


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## StriperAddict (Sep 20, 2019)

welderguy said:


> That's true. But I don't see Eph. 4 making that distinction when it says we are members one of another. Do you?


*Actually yes, he is speaking to those who have put faith in Christ. Check the context of the previous Eph 4 verses (emphasis mine):

20 But you did not learn Christ in this way, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus, 22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, 23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

The last part especially emphasizes believers.  The body of Christ in action, baby!*


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## NE GA Pappy (Sep 20, 2019)

StriperAddict said:


> *Actually yes, he is speaking to those who have put faith in Christ. Check the context of the previous Eph 4 verses (emphasis mine):*
> 
> *20 But you did not learn Christ in this way, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus, 22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, 23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.*
> 
> *The last part especially emphasizes believers.  The body of Christ in action, baby!*



yep.  Context, context, context.   It is very clear that in the previous verses that Paul is speaking to believers, and continues to speak to them in v.25


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 20, 2019)

So we are all one body of Christians who should speak truthfully to our neighbors. But it's not necessarily saying our neighbors are Christian, just that we, as one body, should speak the truth to them.


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## welderguy (Sep 20, 2019)

NE GA Pappy said:


> you don't see Eph 4:25 speaking to believers, and not the unbelievers????



I do. But I see it speaking about your neighbor, which I believe to be believer or non-believer.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 20, 2019)

If you lie to a neighbor, you are lying to yourself.  

“‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”


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## welderguy (Sep 21, 2019)

Spineyman said:


> We are indeed all neighbors, but we are not all of the house of faith!



Did you consider this?

2 Tim. 2:20
But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.


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## rattlesnake1 (Sep 21, 2019)

OP what is your objective with the original post?


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## welderguy (Sep 21, 2019)

rattlesnake1 said:


> OP what is your objective with the original post?



To see if anyone agreed with my take on this particular subject, and to perhaps get some deeper spiritual insight into it.


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## Israel (Sep 22, 2019)

Fear not, thou worm Jacob, _and_ ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.


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## welderguy (Sep 22, 2019)

1 John 2
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 22, 2019)

Welder, yes. Your point is spot on. Here's the biggy on it.


And the second _is_ like, _namely_ this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Now u know...


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## Spineyman (Sep 22, 2019)

welderguy said:


> Did you consider this?
> 
> 2 Tim. 2:20
> But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.


I have considered it well. How about we just go on from there and see what exactly I was referring to.
* 2 Timothy 2:20-26 *

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor.  21 *Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter,* he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.  22 Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.  23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.  24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,  25 *in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, * 26 and _that_ they may come to their senses _and_ _escape_ the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to _do_ his will.

Take 21, now if anyone cleanses himself from the latter. The latter being dishonor. Then it goes on to saying in 25, correcting those in opposition if perhaps God may grant them repentance. The only ones Christ died for are those in the household of faith, just look at John 17 in Jesus priestly prayer. He declares exactly who He came and died for, and it is not the whole world with everyone in it.


Artfuldodger said:


> So we are all one body of Christians who should speak truthfully to our neighbors. But it's not necessarily saying our neighbors are Christian, just that we, as one body, should speak the truth to them.


Jesus tells us to go into the highways and byways and  compel them to come in. Yes we are to speak the truth in love because only God knows who are His. Then God will separate the wheat from the chaff and the sheep from the goats. His job not ours. So everyone is our neighbor but not all will except his blood  sacrifice.  Jesus said I know my sheep and My sheep hear my voice. The Bible also says that he who has the Son has life, he who has not the Son, has not life. There words I have written unto you, that you may know that you have eternal life!


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## Spineyman (Sep 22, 2019)

welderguy said:


> 1 John 2
> 1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
> 
> 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


The whole world referred to there is where He says that He will redeem some from every nation, tribe and tongue, and that covers the entire world, but not all will respond to His call and bow their knee to Him in this life. Because it is appointed once for man to die and after that comes the judgement. But getting back to your original post. Yes we are to love our neighbor and show then Jesus's love. But ultimately it is not of him who plants or of him who waters. But of Him who grants the increase.

*The Final Judgment*

*Matthew 25:31-46*
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,[f] you did it to me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


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## welderguy (Sep 23, 2019)

Spineyman said:


> The whole world referred to there is where He says that He will redeem some from every nation, tribe and tongue, and that covers the entire world, but not all will respond to His call and bow their knee to Him in this life. Because it is appointed once for man to die and after that comes the judgement. But getting back to your original post. Yes we are to love our neighbor and show then Jesus's love. But ultimately it is not of him who plants or of him who waters. But of Him who grants the increase.
> 
> *The Final Judgment*
> 
> ...



But how are we, as neighbors, "members one of another" ,as stated in Eph.4:25 ?


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 23, 2019)

Isn't there a time in the future when God will reconcile "all things" through Jesus Christ?  Maybe it's after the non-believer are gone but some sort of restoration of the earth?
Will there be a time when "all" believe and become Christian neighbors, when every head shall bow?

*Ephesians 1:9-10: * "His purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time," is "to unite ALL things in him, things in heaven and things on earth." 

But not until the fullness of time!


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 23, 2019)

Romans 11:30-32
Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience,
31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. 32For God has consigned all men to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all. 

It seems like at some point all will be in All!


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 23, 2019)

Some people believe that God hardened Israel's heart to make his plan for salvation come about. Therefore "all" of Israel will be saved as per Romans 11 and Jeremiah 31:34;

Jeremiah 31:34
No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

It's almost like everyone has to be turned over to disobedience so that God can have mercy on all. Therefore all of Israel will be saved. Again this is in the future after the full number of Gentiles are grafted in. 

I realize I may be getting off the subject of neighbors but maybe it's related to what the OP is suggesting.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 23, 2019)

*The Arminian *-- _God desires all people to be saved._ 
*The Calvinist *-- _Even though His expressed will is for all people to be saved, He really doesn't want anyone to be saved except for the elect whom He chose before the foundation of the world, and whom He effectually calls to Himself. _ 
*The Universalist *-- _God wants all men to be saved. He sent Jesus to die for all men. God is sovereign. Therefore all will eventually be saved. _ 

I guess the hard part is to understand what words like "all" "everyone" and "world" mean.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 23, 2019)

Matthew 5:43-45
43You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,   45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Is this somehow related? To know who our neighbors are, first we  must know who our enemy is. Then to be a "son," we must love those enemies. Is that what we are doing in today's world?  Is that what God is doing today? Blessing our enemies with the same blessings we receive?


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## welderguy (Sep 23, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> Matthew 5:43-45
> 43You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,   45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
> 
> Is this somehow related? To know who our neighbors are, first we  must know who our enemy is. Then to be a "son," we must love those enemies. Is that what we are doing in today's world?  Is that what God is doing today? Blessing our enemies with the same blessings we receive?



We wrestle not against flesh and blood...

People are not the enemy. Very key to this discussion.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 23, 2019)

welderguy said:


> We wrestle not against flesh and blood...
> 
> People are not the enemy. Very key to this discussion.


Is there any relation to loving our enemies that aren't flesh and blood in relation to our neighbors? Neighbor is also used in this passage. 
Regardless we must love our enemies and pray for the ones that persecute us that we may be sons of the Father in Heaven.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 23, 2019)

welderguy said:


> We wrestle not against flesh and blood...
> 
> People are not the enemy. Very key to this discussion.


It sounds like that besides our neighbor, that we should love as ourselves, we also got enemies and those that persecute us. Regardless of where they may be or whom they may be, we are to love them as well.
There is some sort of difference between neighbors and enemies. Could neighbor be humans and enemies spirits? I guess, but why should we love evil spirits? Then again, why should we love humans that are being guided by evil spirits?
Let's say we think Muslims are our enemy or they are lead by Satan who is our enemy? Either way if they are persecuting us, we are to love them?


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## welderguy (Sep 24, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> It sounds like that besides our neighbor, that we should love as ourselves, we also got enemies and those that persecute us. Regardless of where they may be or whom they may be, we are to love them as well.
> There is some sort of difference between neighbors and enemies. Could neighbor be humans and enemies spirits? I guess, but why should we love evil spirits? Then again, why should we love humans that are being guided by evil spirits?
> Let's say we think Muslims are our enemy or they are lead by Satan who is our enemy? Either way if they are persecuting us, we are to love them?



We are not called to love evil spirits. We are called to love all people, even those that oppose us as enemies, because He tells us who the true enemy is.
Jesus told Peter in the garden to put away his sword, because the one's he was fighting were not his enemy. Jesus said His kingdom was not of this world, else His servants would fight. He could have called down legions of angels to destroy them all. He knew the true enemy had to be defeated on the cross. 
This is how we are members one of another, through the cross. Jesus was the propitiation for the sins "of the whole world" (1 John 2:2)


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 24, 2019)

welderguy said:


> We are not called to love evil spirits. We are called to love all people, even those that oppose us as enemies, because He tells us who the true enemy is.
> Jesus told Peter in the garden to put away his sword, because the one's he was fighting were not his enemy. Jesus said His kingdom was not of this world, else His servants would fight. He could have called down legions of angels to destroy them all. He knew the true enemy had to be defeated on the cross.
> This is how we are members one of another, through the cross. Jesus was the propitiation for the sins "of the whole world" (1 John 2:2)


Then, Matthew 5:43-45, is telling us "those" enemies, the human ones, are really our neighbors. And thus why we should love them. Maybe!


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## gordon 2 (Sep 24, 2019)

I think that where we stand on who the neighbor is, is bases enough to our judgement as to the man of Christ and man the anti-Christ.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 24, 2019)

gordon 2 said:


> I think that where we stand on who the neighbor is, is bases enough to our judgement as to the man of Christ and man the anti-Christ.


What if one physically dies before the anti-Christ appears? This scripture was written for us to live by long before the anti-Christ will appear.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 24, 2019)

I'm thinking that maybe everyone is our neighbor. Maybe since the Cross that is. Ever since the Cross, even our enemies are our neighbor.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 24, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> What if one physically dies before the anti-Christ appears? This scripture was written for us to live by long before the anti-Christ will appear.




Does not scripture say that many anti-Christs had appeared in the days of the apostles? A man of perdition does not have to be a single individual-- every empire has created such men. 

In any case... "Therefore if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there before the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.… "

What a great commandment to the peacekeeper-saint... to him or her that has made even family or neighbor out to be enemy or they themselves are enemy to an other. I think now of the many times Israel was exiled by our Lord-- and in part for misbehaving regards neighbors.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 24, 2019)

welderguy said:


> Can we all agree, based on Jesus' lesson of the good Samaritan, that we are all neighbors?
> If so, can we also agree that we,as neighbors, are members, one of another? (Eph.4:25)




This morning on my way into work God was speaking to my heart about how he loves us all equally, saved as much as the worse sinners, Baptist, Muslims and atheist all equally loved for we are ALL made in his image.  There is no distinction in his love between any of us, the only distinction lies in how we AS INDIVIDUALS respond to him.  He loves me no more now than when I was in rebellion, yet my acquiescence allowed ME to benefit from the blessings that were always there for me and anyone else who will bow and call him MY GOD AND MY LORD.  

Also it came to me that anyone who thinks that his doctrine can define who may and may not be saved is not saved, as he surely doesn’t know God personally, only ‘about’ him.


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## Spineyman (Oct 1, 2019)

welderguy said:


> But how are we, as neighbors, "members one of another" ,as stated in Eph.4:25 ?


Because if we have put on Christ, we are all members of the same body. Therefore we are to love our neighbors as ourselves, laying down our lives for one another!


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## j_seph (Oct 1, 2019)

SemperFiDawg said:


> This morning on my way into work God was speaking to my heart about how he loves us all equally, saved as much as the worse sinners, Baptist, Muslims and atheist all equally loved for we are ALL made in his image.  There is no distinction in his love between any of us, the only distinction lies in how we AS INDIVIDUALS respond to him.  He loves me no more now than when I was in rebellion, yet my acquiescence allowed ME to benefit from the blessings that were always there for me and anyone else who will bow and call him MY GOD AND MY LORD.
> 
> Also it came to me that anyone who thinks that his doctrine can define who may and may not be saved is not saved, as he surely doesn’t know God personally, only ‘about’ him.


Well said, if he did not Love us that way then the drunk would never get saved, the drug addict would never come to know him, the murderer in prison would never be saved. Heck none of us would ever get saved. Only difference between any of us saved and the murderer that is not is that we have accepted Christ. That murderer sin was no greater than my cussing someone out once. The only difference is that I am just a sinner saved by Grace. The only time I could see us not being loved would be once we were given to a reprobate mind.


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## welderguy (Oct 1, 2019)

Spineyman said:


> Because if we have put on Christ, we are all members of the same body. Therefore we are to love our neighbors as ourselves, laying down our lives for one another!



Are you making a distinction that our neighbor is only one who has put on Christ?


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## welderguy (Oct 1, 2019)

j_seph said:


> Well said, if he did not Love us that way then the drunk would never get saved, the drug addict would never come to know him, the murderer in prison would never be saved. Heck none of us would ever get saved. Only difference between any of us saved and the murderer that is not is that we have accepted Christ. That murderer sin was no greater than my cussing someone out once. The only difference is that I am just a sinner saved by Grace. The only time I could see us not being loved would be once we were given to a reprobate mind.



Nothing can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus.


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## Spineyman (Oct 2, 2019)

welderguy said:


> Are you making a distinction that our neighbor is only one who has put on Christ?



No I am not. Our neighbor is anyone whom the Lord puts in our path. The illustration of the good Samaritan is proof of that. It wasn't the religious people who helped the guy beaten badly, but a Samaritan, who by the way was outside the Jewish sphere.


* Luke 14:23  *
23 Then the master said to the servant, ‘Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel _them_ to come in, that my house may be filled. 

It is real hard to bring them in if we don't show love and compassion to those whom the Lord wants to save


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## welderguy (Oct 3, 2019)

Spineyman said:


> No I am not. Our neighbor is anyone whom the Lord puts in our path. The illustration of the good Samaritan is proof of that. It wasn't the religious people who helped the guy beaten badly, but a Samaritan, who by the way was outside the Jewish sphere.
> 
> 
> * Luke 14:23  *
> ...



I couldn't agree more. Now that we've established that everyone is our neighbor, do we also agree that we are ALL members one of another, as stated in Eph.4:25? That's all I've been asking from the start.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Oct 3, 2019)

Spineyman said:


> Our neighbor is anyone whom the Lord puts in our path.





welderguy said:


> Now that we've established that everyone is our neighbor, do we also agree that we are ALL members one of another, as stated in Eph.4:25? That's all I've been asking from the start.



I'm not sure I agree that EVERYONE is our neighbor.  I agree more with the idea Spineyman stated that "Our neighbor is anyone whom the Lord puts in our path."  In carrying our the command to "Love your neighbor as yourself" we are accountable to love those who we come across personally.  For most of us, that does not include most of the 6 billion people on the planet.  But whether or not someone is our neighbor does not depend on whether they are a Christian.

I'm also reluctant to view "neighbor" as a technical term with the exact same meaning in Ephesians 4:25 as in the account of the good Samaritan.  When Paul writes in Ephesians 4:25 that "we are all members of one body" the key question is who is the pronoun "we" referring to?  In this context, it is not including unbelievers, but rather it is only including the explicit audience of the letter - "God's holy people."  Light and darkness have no fellowship.  

“*Come* *out* *from* *them* and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you.” 2 Cor 6:17


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## Spineyman (Oct 3, 2019)

We are not of this world but we are in this world, and the great commission is really not an option but a command. We are  not all called to go into all the world, but we are all called to love our neighbor as ourselves. So in order to be salt and light, we have to be involved trying to reach the lost!


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## Spineyman (Oct 3, 2019)

welderguy said:


> I couldn't agree more. Now that we've established that everyone is our neighbor, do we also agree that we are ALL members one of another, as stated in Eph.4:25? That's all I've been asking from the start.


I do not believe we are "ALL" members of one another. Those who are in Christ are! All one body, and one church. The Church of Jesus Christ! There are countless people who will hear the call of God, and will not respond. The great hymn... Why was I made to hear your voice, and enter while there's room. When thousands make a wretched choice , and rather starve than come!


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## welderguy (Oct 3, 2019)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> I'm not sure I agree that EVERYONE is our neighbor.  I agree more with the idea Spineyman stated that "Our neighbor is anyone whom the Lord puts in our path."  In carrying our the command to "Love your neighbor as yourself" we are accountable to love those who we come across personally.  For most of us, that does not include most of the 6 billion people on the planet.  But whether or not someone is our neighbor does not depend on whether they are a Christian.
> 
> I'm also reluctant to view "neighbor" as a technical term with the exact same meaning in Ephesians 4:25 as in the account of the good Samaritan.  When Paul writes in Ephesians 4:25 that "we are all members of one body" the key question is who is the pronoun "we" referring to?  In this context, it is not including unbelievers, but rather it is only including the explicit audience of the letter - "God's holy people."  Light and darkness have no fellowship.
> 
> “*Come* *out* *from* *them* and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you.” 2 Cor 6:17



I think that's kinda how the priest and the Levite saw it also. But Jesus indicated that they were not neighborly.
The Lawyer who asked Jesus "who then is my neighbor?" thought he could justify himself by distinguishing who was, and who was not his neighbor. He was taught by Jesus that was an error.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Oct 3, 2019)

welderguy said:


> I think that's kinda how the priest and the Levite saw it also. But Jesus indicated that they were not neighborly.
> The Lawyer who asked Jesus "who then is my neighbor?" thought he could justify himself by distinguishing who was, and who was not his neighbor. He was taught by Jesus that was an error.



So YOU have 6 billion neighbors?

Tell us how YOU love them all as yourself.


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## welderguy (Oct 3, 2019)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> So YOU have 6 billion neighbors?
> 
> Tell us how YOU love them all as yourself.



As in one body. 
As the Father is father of all (Eph.4:6), and is in all, and through all.
He calls us to love those of the household of faith AND to love our enemies. That doesn't seem to leave anyone out. Does it?


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## gemcgrew (Oct 4, 2019)

Just for the record, I have never loved my neighbor. When I am told to love my neighbor, it does not indicate that I have the ability to do so.


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## welderguy (Oct 4, 2019)

gemcgrew said:


> Just for the record, I have never loved my neighbor. When I am told to love my neighbor, it does not indicate that I have the ability to do so.



No, not of yourself. But we can do all things through Christ which strengthens us. We are reflectors of his love. The love that lives within us.

Luke 7
47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

There is a provoking unto love and good works.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 4, 2019)

How can we look at it through the eyes of Jesus? Who does Jesus love? Who does he forgive? Whose sins did he die for? Who is his neighbor?

Now if we are reflecting Jesus in loving our neighbor? If we are His image?


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## gemcgrew (Oct 5, 2019)

welderguy said:


> No, not of yourself. But we can do all things through Christ which strengthens us. We are reflectors of his love. The love that lives within us.


Amen!

Whatever is inferred from the word "neighbor", whether it be all of mankind or brothers and sisters in Christ or even all creatures for that matter, I have very little interest in it.

The Believer is only as pure in God's mind, as Christ is pure.

Romans 8 comes to mind.


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## Spineyman (Oct 5, 2019)

gemcgrew said:


> Amen!
> 
> Whatever is inferred from the word "neighbor", whether it be all of mankind or brothers and sisters in Christ or even all creatures for that matter, I have very little interest in it.
> 
> ...


Since Jesus gave it to us in the way of a commandment, then it should move all of us to find out what is meant by it.

* Matthew 22:35-40 *

35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked _Him a question,_ testing Him, and saying,  36 “Teacher, which _is_ the great commandment in the law?”

37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’  38 This is _the_ first and great commandment.  39 And _the_ second _is_ like it: ‘You shall love your *neighbor* as yourself.’  40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”


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## welderguy (Oct 5, 2019)

[/QUOTE]


gemcgrew said:


> Amen!
> 
> Whatever is inferred from the word "neighbor", whether it be all of mankind or brothers and sisters in Christ or even all creatures for that matter, I have very little interest in it.
> 
> ...



Glenn, what's your take on Eph.4:6, which says God is "Father of all"?
Wouldn't this tie into the concept in Eph.4:25, "we are members one of another"?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 5, 2019)

Spineyman said:


> Since Jesus gave it to us in the way of a commandment, then it should move all of us to find out what is meant by it.
> 
> * Matthew 22:35-40 *
> 
> ...


Well since it is given as a "commandment" it does seem to be important. I'm sure Gem is implying that whatever we do or whomever we love, is the work of God in us. Yet it's still given as a commandment.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 5, 2019)

Spineyman said:


> Since Jesus gave it to us in the way of a commandment, then it should move all of us to find out what is meant by it.


Whatever is meant by it does not help me. Even if I was able to convince myself that the word "neighbor" means only my wife, my son or my daughter, I failed miserably.

I fold.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 5, 2019)

welderguy said:


> Glenn, what's your take on Eph.4:6, which says God is "Father of all"?
> Wouldn't this tie into the concept in Eph.4:25, "we are members one of another"?


All of the elect.


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## welderguy (Oct 5, 2019)

gemcgrew said:


> All of the elect.



Yeah I used to think that too.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 6, 2019)

welderguy said:


> Yeah I used to think that too.


You used to be right. Now I see you all over the place.

All is well.


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## welderguy (Oct 6, 2019)

gemcgrew said:


> You used to be right. Now I see you all over the place.
> 
> All is well.



I am seeking truth wherever it may be found. And I will not be bound by traditions of man in doing so. 
...but yes, all is well.


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## welderguy (Oct 6, 2019)

Using the criteria that some have expressed concerning Eph.4., which was that the writer was only talking to believers , and applying that same criteria to 1 John 2. Then in verse 2 it would appear that John is including ALL people. So now which is it? Anyone have any thoughts?

1 John 2:2
“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”


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## gemcgrew (Oct 6, 2019)

welderguy said:


> Using the criteria that some have expressed concerning Eph.4., which was that the writer was only talking to believers , and applying that same criteria to 1 John 2. Then in verse 2 it would appear that John is including ALL people. So now which is it? Anyone have any thoughts?
> 
> 1 John 2:2
> “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”


Not for the Jew only, but also for the Gentile.

The Jew first and also to the Gentile.


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## welderguy (Oct 7, 2019)

gemcgrew said:


> Not for the Jew only, but also for the Gentile.
> 
> The Jew first and also to the Gentile.



That seems to fit, and I also used to embrace it as the simple answer. But not when I examine 2 Pet.2.
It speaks of some, for whom " the mist of darkness is reserved forever". "Cursed children".
But it also states that "the Lord BOUGHT them".

(They are spiritual gentiles)(un-born again)
...they are outside the kingdom, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.


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## Spineyman (Oct 8, 2019)

welderguy said:


> Using the criteria that some have expressed concerning Eph.4., which was that the writer was only talking to believers , and applying that same criteria to 1 John 2. Then in verse 2 it would appear that John is including ALL people. So now which is it? Anyone have any thoughts?
> 
> 1 John 2:2
> “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”


" The whole world "there means not every single person, but those in the whole world who has put their trust in and placed their faith in the only One who saves. Without Faith it is impossible to please God, for first you must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who dilligently seek Him! Jesus will not save those who do not cling to, trust in and rely upon the blood Jesus shed for the sins of His people!


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## welderguy (Oct 8, 2019)

Spineyman said:


> " The whole world "there means not every single person, but those in the whole world who has put their trust in and placed their faith in the only One who saves. Without Faith it is impossible to please God, for first you must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who dilligently seek Him! Jesus will not save those who do not cling to, trust in and rely upon the blood Jesus shed for the sins of His people!



That seems to conflict with this:

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,


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## Spineyman (Oct 9, 2019)

welderguy said:


> That seems to conflict with this:
> 
> 2 Timothy 1:9
> Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,


Here I'm going to let you see it straight from the mouth of Jesus.
John 17 in Jesus' priestly prayer:

* John 17*
*Jesus Prays for Himself*
17 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,  2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He [a]should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.  3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.  4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.  5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
*Jesus Prays for His Disciples*
6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.  7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You.  8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received _them,_ and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.

9 *“I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. * 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.  11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We _are._  12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.  13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves.  14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.  15 I do not pray that You should* take them out of the world,* but that You should keep them from the evil one.  16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.  17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.  18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.  19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
*Jesus Prays for All Believers*
20 *“I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;  21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. * 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:  23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.  25 O righteous Father!* The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. * 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare _it,_ that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

Jesus blood was not shed for everyone, but for all whom the Father gave Jesus.
Matthew 7 
* Matthew 7:13-26 *
*The Narrow Way*
13* “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. * 14 *Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.*
*You Will Know Them by Their Fruits*
15 *“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.  *16* You will know them by their fruits.* Do men gather grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles?  17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.  18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor _can_ a bad tree bear good fruit.  19 *Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.*  20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
*I Never Knew You*
21 *“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.  22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’  23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’*
*B*uild on the Rock
24 “Therefore whoever *hears these sayings of Mine, and does them,* I will liken him to a *wise man who built his house on the rock: * 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and* it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.*

26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 


The Rock spoken of in the end is Jesus Christ, He is our Rock anbd our Redeemer!


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Oct 9, 2019)

It seems like a stretch of hermaneutics to try and answer basic soteriology questions referencing the account of the good Samaritan.  There are many scriptures that speak more directly to the soteriology questions.


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## welderguy (Oct 10, 2019)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> It seems like a stretch of hermaneutics to try and answer basic soteriology questions referencing the account of the good Samaritan.  There are many scriptures that speak more directly to the soteriology questions.



Precept upon precept.


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## welderguy (Oct 10, 2019)

Drummer, what's your take on Eph.4:6?
Is God the Father of all? Is He in all? Is He through all? ...or just some?


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## Spineyman (Oct 10, 2019)

welderguy said:


> What's your take on Eph.4:6?
> Is God the Father of all? Is He in all? Is He through all? ...or just some?



We are to treat everyone as our neighbor, but not all are of the faith!
* Revelation 20:11-15 *
*Judgment Before the Great White Throne*
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

* Revelation 21:8  *
8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 10, 2019)

Spineyman said:


> We are to treat everyone as our neighbor, but not all are of the faith!
> * Revelation 20:11-15 *
> *Judgment Before the Great White Throne*
> 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
> ...



A lot of verses do point to a works based salvation.


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## Spineyman (Oct 10, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> A lot of verses do point to a works based salvation.


No sir, you are not saved by your works, but you are saved unto good works. Faith without works is dead! Show me your faith and I'll show you your works.


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## welderguy (Oct 10, 2019)

Spineyman said:


> We are to treat everyone as our neighbor, but not all are of the faith!
> * Revelation 20:11-15 *
> *Judgment Before the Great White Throne*
> 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
> ...



This is probably off topic, but do you not believe these things are going on right now? (does it not pertain to the kingdom now?)


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 10, 2019)

Spineyman said:


> No sir, you are not saved by your works, but you are saved unto good works. Faith without works is dead! Show me your faith and I'll show you your works.


Yet a lot of verses point to evil vs righteousness as to pertaining to salvation. The sheep and the goats and those Revelation verses. Regardless of salvation by faith, the proof seems to be the fruit in the form of works. This regardless if the fruit is from the free will of the individual or from the Holy Spirit.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 10, 2019)

Maybe a works based "proof" salvation!


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## Spineyman (Oct 11, 2019)

welderguy said:


> This is probably off topic, but do you not believe these things are going on right now? (does it not pertain to the kingdom now?)


It just points to the fact that God does indeed punish some and welcome in some!


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Oct 11, 2019)

welderguy said:


> Drummer, what's your take on Eph.4:6?
> Is God the Father of all? Is He in all? Is He through all? ...or just some?



I think "all" most likely refers to the audience of the letter - "God's holy people."  There is a sense in which God is the "father of all" including the lost as Scripture says Adam was the son of God and we are all descendants of Adam.  This is the same sense Paul used the idea when speaking to the unsaved men of Athens and quoting their poets regarding God, "We are his offspring." (Acts 17)

But Scripture places greater emphasis on the distinction between those who are adopted children of God through Christ, and the "natural" children of God through Adam.  This is because the "natural" children through Adam have been adopted and parented by the devil in their slavery to sin.  Jesus explains:

John 8
34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.”

39 “Abraham is our father,” they answered.

“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the works of your own father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”


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## welderguy (Oct 11, 2019)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> I think "all" most likely refers to the audience of the letter - "God's holy people."  There is a sense in which God is the "father of all" including the lost as Scripture says Adam was the son of God and we are all descendants of Adam.  This is the same sense Paul used the idea when speaking to the unsaved men of Athens and quoting their poets regarding God, "We are his offspring." (Acts 17)
> 
> But Scripture places greater emphasis on the distinction between those who are adopted children of God through Christ, and the "natural" children of God through Adam.  This is because the "natural" children through Adam have been adopted and parented by the devil in their slavery to sin.  Jesus explains:
> 
> ...



Very good reference!
But I would have to say in response, these men had not been born again. They were in their natural, carnal state. That is clear to me. But weren't we all, before we were quickened and "washed" by regeneration, and adopted, and sealed? Romans tells about all of that, and how "such were some of you". Something to consider before you make a hard judgement on someone's eternal destiny.


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## welderguy (Oct 11, 2019)

Spineyman said:


> It just points to the fact that God does indeed punish some and welcome in some!



Election into the kingdom.(outside the gates of which there is weeping and gnashing of teeth)
Remember Jesus said the words of the kingdom were hidden from some. Thus, He spoke about it in parables.


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## welderguy (Oct 11, 2019)

And then there's this:

Luke 2:10-11
10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

..."all people"...


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Oct 11, 2019)

welderguy said:


> Very good reference!
> But I would have to say in response, these men had not been born again. They were in their natural, carnal state. That is clear to me. But weren't we all, before we were quickened and "washed" by regeneration, and adopted, and sealed? Romans tells about all of that, and how "such were some of you". Something to consider before you make a hard judgement on someone's eternal destiny.



One's eternal destiny depends not on my opinion, but on whether they repent and turn to Jesus.


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## welderguy (Oct 11, 2019)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> One's eternal destiny depends not on my opinion, but on whether they repent and turn to Jesus.



So you're saying it's in the individual's hands?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 11, 2019)

43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 

I see a lot of verses that seem to say some individuals can't come or can't seek, or are perhaps hardened such as in Romans 11. It doesn't seem like it can be in the individual's hand.


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## Spineyman (Oct 13, 2019)

welderguy said:


> And then there's this:
> 
> Luke 2:10-11
> 10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
> ...


The all people you reference refers to  every Nation, Tribe and Tongue. Not every single person.

Revelation 7:9                                                                             

                   After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,


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## Spineyman (Oct 13, 2019)

* 1 Corinthians 6:9-11  *
9 *Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God*? Do *not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,  10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. * 11 *And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.*


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 13, 2019)

Spineyman said:


> * 1 Corinthians 6:9-11  *
> 9 *Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God*? Do *not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,  10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. * 11 *And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.*


In following Paul here, he presents a list that would keep someone from the kingdom. Then he says more or less, we do all of those things on the list but the difference is, we were washed!
I think we were unrighteous but the washing imputed righteousness to us.


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## welderguy (Oct 13, 2019)

Spineyman said:


> The all people you reference refers to  every Nation, Tribe and Tongue. Not every single person.
> 
> Revelation 7:9
> 
> After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,



The kingdom.
You keep making references to the kingdom... without realizing it, I think.

You know, "come ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom..."

The kingdom is now. Not just in the future, as you seem to be conveying.
When you finally realize the kingdom is now, these texts about the kingdombegin to take on a whole new meaning.


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## Spineyman (Oct 13, 2019)

That has zero to do with the word "ALL". The fact is not all who are Israel are of Israel. Matthew 7, not all who say to me Lord Lord. The point is only those whom God has elected from the foundation of the world will make it in.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 13, 2019)

welderguy said:


> The kingdom.
> You keep making references to the kingdom... without realizing it, I think.
> 
> You know, "come ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom..."
> ...


I think we've discussed this concept before. The elect just pertains to the kingdom. What is the purpose of the elect into the Kingdom or Church?


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## welderguy (Oct 13, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think we've discussed this concept before. The elect just pertains to the kingdom. What is the purpose of the elect into the Kingdom or Church?



1 Pet.2:9
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;


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## welderguy (Oct 13, 2019)

Spineyman said:


> That has zero to do with the word "ALL". The fact is not all who are Israel are of Israel. Matthew 7, not all who say to me Lord Lord. The point is only those whom God has elected from the foundation of the world will make it in.



You left out an important part:

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, SHALL ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Not all are elected for the kingdom.


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## Spineyman (Oct 14, 2019)

welderguy said:


> You left out an important part:
> 
> Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, SHALL ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
> 
> Not all are elected for the kingdom.


You only have two choices. The Kingdom, or eternal punishment. There is no other choice!


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## welderguy (Oct 14, 2019)

Spineyman said:


> You only have two choices. The Kingdom, or eternal punishment. There is no other choice!



Show me.


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## welderguy (Oct 14, 2019)

I asked gemcgrew about this in post 60, but he declined to respond.
Can someone help me with this text in 2 Pet. 2?

It speaks of some, for whom " the mist of darkness is reserved forever". "Cursed children".
But it also states that "the Lord BOUGHT them".

How can these horrible things be said of these that the Lord BOUGHT?


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## NE GA Pappy (Oct 14, 2019)

welderguy said:


> How can these horrible things be said of these that the Lord BOUGHT?




because the turned from the way, and denied the Lord



> If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.



What I truly wonder is how the OSAS group reconcile this scripture with their beliefs


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## welderguy (Oct 15, 2019)

NE GA Pappy said:


> because the turned from the way, and denied the Lord
> 
> 
> 
> What I truly wonder is how the OSAS group reconcile this scripture with their beliefs



I am from the OSAS group. And I agree with you that these people did turn from the way and denied the Lord. But I still believe they are saved eternally because they were bought. I just do not believe they entered the kingdom. They were cast into outer darkness, which is outside the kingdom.


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## welderguy (Oct 15, 2019)

From John 1

7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that ALL MEN through him might believe.

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth EVERY man that cometh into the world.

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which TAKETH AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD.


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## welderguy (Oct 15, 2019)

Matt.8:11-12
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


"children of the kingdom"--offspring of royalty

Just because a man is in the kingdom does not mean his children will be.


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## welderguy (Oct 15, 2019)

A pretty clear picture of the kingdom.

Luke 13
23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.


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## NE GA Pappy (Oct 15, 2019)

welderguy said:


> I am from the OSAS group. And I agree with you that these people did turn from the way and denied the Lord. But I still believe they are saved eternally because they were bought. I just do not believe they entered the kingdom. They were cast into outer darkness, which is outside the kingdom.



Where is this outer darkness, where there is weeping and nashing of teeth?  Is it known by any other names?  Who else might be there in the outer darkness?


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## welderguy (Oct 15, 2019)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Where is this outer darkness, where there is weeping and nashing of teeth?  Is it known by any other names?  Who else might be there in the outer darkness?



As I said, it's outside of the kingdom. Rev. 21:8 tells of those who will not enter. Even the cowardly. 
But I believe it's now, not just in the future. And this lake of fire and brimstone is now also, for those outside the kingdom. Even those that are not born again yet. They too are in darkness, until God shines His light upon them.  Remember, Jesus told Nicodemus that you can't enter the kingdom unless first you are born again. You can't even see the kingdom until then. You're in a state of darkness. Outside the gates.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 15, 2019)

welderguy said:


> As I said, it's outside of the kingdom. Rev. 21:8 tells of those who will not enter. Even the cowardly.
> But I believe it's now, not just in the future. And this lake of fire and brimstone is now also, for those outside the kingdom. Even those that are not born again yet. They too are in darkness, until God shines His light upon them.  Remember, Jesus told Nicodemus that you can't enter the kingdom unless first you are born again. You can't even see the kingdom until then. You're in a state of darkness. Outside the gates.


When will everyone that is not born again be born again?


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## NE GA Pappy (Oct 15, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> When will everyone that is not born again be born again?



they won't be.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 15, 2019)

I've always thought about Romans 11. Jesus chooses a remnant based on grace alone and hardens the rest  of physical Israel, the nation. This to let salvation go to the gentiles. Makes me wonder if there may be two salvation's, one for the nation or kingdom and one for eternal life. 

Romans 11:29-33
29For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. 32For God has consigned all men to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all. 33O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways! 

If God hardened part of Israel to make his plan happen, then says "all Israel will be saved, some for the promises and covenants, then I guess he could unblind the rest.
If this is for the Kingdom or Nation of Israel, could this not be a mirror for eternal salvation for the whole earth? Could not every person not bow on bent knee? 

Can we compare what will happen to Israel in Romans 11 to that of the world regarding salvation for a kingdom or eternal life. I'm not sure every use of "salvation" is for eternal life.


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## welderguy (Oct 15, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> When will everyone that is not born again be born again?



The wind bloweth where it listeth....
The Spirit moves as it pleases.


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## welderguy (Oct 15, 2019)

NE GA Pappy said:


> they won't be.



What's your basis for saying this. How do you know?


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## NE GA Pappy (Oct 15, 2019)

welderguy said:


> What's your basis for saying this. How do you know?



I guess we are going back to that 2 Peter 2 discussion.


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## welderguy (Oct 15, 2019)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I guess we are going back to that 2 Peter 2 discussion.



I'm not really following you. Sorry


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## NE GA Pappy (Oct 15, 2019)

welderguy said:


> I'm not really following you. Sorry



Do you believe that everyone will end up in heaven or Abrahams bossum (someplace besides Hades, ****-o or the Lake of Fire) eventually?   That regardless of their choices made during this life, we all end up with basically the same outcome?


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## welderguy (Oct 15, 2019)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Do you believe that everyone will end up in heaven or Abrahams bossum (someplace besides Hades, ****-o or the Lake of Fire) eventually?   That regardless of their choices made during this life, we all end up with basically the same outcome?



I do, but there will be a definite distinction between those chosen for the inheritance (Jacob), and those that were not(Esau).
...the elder shall serve the younger.

And, as for the choices, we're told there are rewards in heaven for obedience that is done in faith


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 15, 2019)

welderguy said:


> I do, but there will be a definite distinction between those chosen for the inheritance (Jacob), and those that were not(Esau).
> ...the elder shall serve the younger.
> 
> And, as for the choices, we're told there are rewards in heaven for obedience that is done in faith


What is the inheritance(Jacob)?


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## welderguy (Oct 16, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> What is the inheritance(Jacob)?



Obadiah 1


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## welderguy (Oct 16, 2019)

1Tim. 2
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


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## welderguy (Oct 18, 2019)

2 Cor.5
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

If I'm reading this correctly, if we have been made alive(a new creature) , we should treat every person as our spiritual kinsman. Love them spiritually, not fleshly.
Some have not been made alive, at least not yet. But it does not give a pass on that.
The way I see it, that's the only way that we can effectively love all people, especially our enemies.

remember, "we wrestle not against flesh and blood..."


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## Israel (Oct 21, 2019)

When asked by Pilate:

Art Thou the King of the Jews?" 

Jesus responded with:

Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of Me?

God knows how this speaks to me regardless of what I may think of my understanding. At this point with the light I have I find Jesus interested to know if this is coming of revelation or merely Pilate repeating what he has heard others say of Jesus...and/or Jesus' claims. 

To me, it is much like Jesus's asking "Who do men say that I am?" Followed by "Who do you say that I am?" And we know of Jesus's response to Peter's response, especially about flesh and blood and the only place such knowing can come from.

When Jesus is said to have marveled at the Centurion's faith, is it mere hyperbole? Or was Jesus genuinely marveling how that one (my words) "not really expected to have faith and see things so clearly" had it...in "great measure"...as opposed to those amongst whom in some way Jesus would have expected to find some manifestation of that faith...the _children of Israel._

Is it much different...or _should it be_ for any of us?

God speaks as He wills to whom He will in the revelation of His Son. I am persuaded there is more (if you will) "danger" in letting this slip in even any of the smallest measure than all our _imagined rightness_ about our theology can account for. 

Does this undercut in any way any of the things the Lord has spoken regarding salvation? Of sheep and goats, of narrow and broad, etc? God forbid. But, it does a "work" in me...in any and every place where any assumption/presumption of my "knowing the Lord", made heir of salvation...the "being saved"...would extend in such presumption to a now "ruling in" or "ruling out" how, or to whom, or when, the Lord may appear.

I speak and have of perceiving an untenable place. But, it is only untenable for the flesh, it is the place of all possibility, where _no man_ can rule out any possibility..._especially in light_ of what he _may think he knows._

The great appeal of knowledge...even of understanding, or what might even be termed wisdom by men is (I am persuaded) shown through Christ has a component of which we (I am all subject to being the wrongest in all) cannot deny...that with knowledge comes _an assumed_ power of control. Appealing to that _desire to control. _Even to a desire of control toward what is perceived as _desired ends. (_Of course I don't _want _calamity!...but, need I even say it?) 

"If _I know _where the storm is headed...I can make sure (I vainly imagine) to not be there!" But I find...I am not dealing with the unconscious...I am in all ways at all times in relationship to all consciousness...even of "my will" to not be subject to calamity! I am all..._found out!_

But I have found, am finding, my desires...(of which I most usually seem aware) though not spitefully disregarded by the Lord, mean so little to the accomplishing of anything...when seen in light of His...as they become in all ways practically meaningless. What do I mean? Even in any desire of mine..."to be saved" is so far outstripped by His desire to save...as to become almost shameful if considered to have any strength. 

O!...how the Lord _uses desire_...to show true desire! And how even, should this desire be misaligned as in "I desire the Lord to show up here, in such and such a way through such and such a people or group..." such desire will be strongly rebuked and chastened. But...how can I be "open to all"? How can I...seeing only ultimate of limit in myself enter by will? I cannot. And no amount of "my" imagined understanding or experience or knowledge...allows for any of "my" control here. Unless I am buoyed apart from my will to be, my strongest desire to be, my deepest longing to be...I cannot but sink.


Thanks be to God for Jesus Christ! Where even my deepest thanks and gratitude pale, but are received of such great and appalling weakness...through Jesus Christ.


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## welderguy (Oct 22, 2019)

Israel said:


> When asked by Pilate:
> 
> Art Thou the King of the Jews?"
> 
> ...



I think you and I can agree that Jesus is the King of all "spiritual"Jews. And this term includes both physical Jews and physical Gentiles. Not sure Pilate grasped that concept though.


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## Israel (Oct 23, 2019)

welderguy said:


> I think you and I can agree that Jesus is the King of all "spiritual"Jews. And this term includes both physical Jews and physical Gentiles. Not sure Pilate grasped that concept though.



I don't disagree...but that was not as much the matter I was seeing, as Jesus giving opportunity to expand upon any revelation (if any) Pilate might have had.

I think we would both agree (?) that even Peter had to be made aware (after his vision on the roof) that just as this Kingdom was extended to the Jews in their King, it was now no less being granted to the gentiles.


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## welderguy (Oct 23, 2019)

Israel said:


> I don't disagree...but that was not as much the matter I was seeing, as Jesus giving opportunity to expand upon any revelation (if any) Pilate might have had.
> 
> I think we would both agree (?) that even Peter had to be made aware (after his vision on the roof) that just as this Kingdom was extended to the Jews in their King, it was now no less being granted to the gentiles.



In a physical sense, yes. But as spiritual, the kingdom always was for Jew and Gentile alike. It just wasn't revealed as such until John. We now know this from Hebrews 11(ie. Rahab). It's been unveiled, which was hidden.


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## Israel (Oct 23, 2019)

welderguy said:


> In a physical sense, yes. But as spiritual, the kingdom always was for Jew and Gentile alike. It just wasn't revealed as such until John. We now know this from Hebrews 11(ie. Rahab). It's been unveiled, which was hidden.


Yes. As Paul said

_Is he_ the God of the Jews only? _is he_ not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

and


For there is no difference between Jew and Greek: The same Lord is Lord of all, and gives richly to all who call on Him,


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## Spineyman (Oct 26, 2019)

* Romans 9  *
*Israel’s Rejection of Christ*
9 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit,  2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart.  3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my [a]countrymen according to the flesh,  4 who are Israelites, to whom _pertain_ the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service _of God,_ and the promises;  5 of whom _are_ the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ _came,_ who is over all, _the_ eternally blessed God. Amen.
*Israel’s Rejection and God’s Purpose*
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. *For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, * 7 nor _are they_ all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”  8 That is, those who _are_ *the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God;* but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.  9 For this _is_ the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

10 And not only _this,_ but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, _even_ by our father Isaac  11 (*for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),  *12 *it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”  13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”*
*Israel’s Rejection and God’s Justice*
14 What shall we say then? _Is there_ unrighteousness with God? *Certainly not! * 15 For He says to Moses, *“I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”  *16 So then _it is_ not of *him who wills*, nor of* him who runs*, but of *God who shows mercy. * 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh,* “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”*  18 *Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
*
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?”  20 But indeed, *O man, who are you to reply against God? *Will the thing formed say to him who formed _it_, “Why have you made me like this?”  21 *Does not the potter have power over the clay,* from the *same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?*

*22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,*  23 and *that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,  *24 even us *whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
*
25 As He says also in Hosea:
“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You _are_ not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:
“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.
28 For [b]He will finish the work and cut _it_ short in righteousness,
Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.”

29 And as Isaiah said before:
“Unless the Lord of [c]Sabaoth had left us a seed,
We would have become like Sodom,
And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”
*Present Condition of Israel*
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith;  31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law [d]of righteousness.  32 Why? Because _they did_ not _seek it_ by faith, but as it were, [e]by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.  33 As it is written:
“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 26, 2019)

Spineyman said:


> * Romans 9  *
> *Israel’s Rejection of Christ*
> 9 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit,  2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart.  3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my [a]countrymen according to the flesh,  4 who are Israelites, to whom _pertain_ the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service _of God,_ and the promises;  5 of whom _are_ the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ _came,_ who is over all, _the_ eternally blessed God. Amen.
> *Israel’s Rejection and God’s Purpose*
> ...


 
Does Romans 11 show the "Future Condition of Israel?"


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## welderguy (Oct 26, 2019)

Spineyman said:


> * Romans 9  *
> *Israel’s Rejection of Christ*
> 9 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit,  2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart.  3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my [a]countrymen according to the flesh,  4 who are Israelites, to whom _pertain_ the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service _of God,_ and the promises;  5 of whom _are_ the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ _came,_ who is over all, _the_ eternally blessed God. Amen.
> *Israel’s Rejection and God’s Purpose*
> ...



Just one question.
Do you believe this text is describing only the physical nation of Israel, or something much deeper, much more spiritual?


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## RCCBGG3 (Dec 2, 2019)

Universalism as well as Calvinism seem to persuade the Christian that there is no need for their efforts in this fight. It subtlety says lean on back and rest, yet that directly contradicts scripture. 
Remember, the enemy was the most subtil of all the creatures in the garden.


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## StriperAddict (Dec 2, 2019)

RCCBGG3 said:


> Universalism as well as Calvinism seem to persuade the Christian that there is no need for their efforts in this fight. It subtlety says lean on back and rest, yet that directly contradicts scripture.
> Remember, the enemy was the most subtil of all the creatures in the garden.


I agree that both of those camps have gotten it pretty wrong! But I will have to say that the understanding of New Covenant rest is one of the most pivotal messages in the gospel and from it has brought me incredible joy excitement in the Lord.  I've been on a mission to discover and walk in those wonderful Works he has prepared for me since then. Grace produces rest and works, they both go hand-in-hand relationally in Christ.


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## RCCBGG3 (Dec 2, 2019)

I agree, I love the peace. “Come to me all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest”, so maybe It’s a poor choice of words on my part.
Yes, we fight from victory, yet we are still called to action, and that’s my concern with the aforementioned camps, they promote the idea of “why should I engage if we’re all going to be saved anyhow”, or “why should I engage if God is the one who picks who it is that will be saved”. To me, it’s a tactic of the enemy to render his opponents useless.


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## RCCBGG3 (Dec 3, 2019)

To weight in on the subject matter though...did Jesus answer the lawyers question, or address his issue? 
Jesus describes to him what a neighbor is and then tells him to go be one. The hate for others that the lawyer was harboring does not align with Gods will: “for God so loved the world”. See also Acts chapters 8,9&10 (summed up at the end of 10:28)
“but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.“
 &  Revelations 7:9 “All people”


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 5, 2019)

Luke 6:35
But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them, expecting nothing in return. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.


Perhaps our enemy is our neighbor as well. God's rain falls on the unrighteous.


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