# Makes me sick



## 1gr8bldr (Dec 11, 2015)

Have you seen on the news where all these churches are caling in a pizza delivery person, on stage, in front of cameras, and giving large cash tips, as much as $2000. The money is not the issue, it is the cameras, for one, the fact they they are copying each other as if original #2. Everything is done for men to see, especially the church. Can anything good be done with a proper motive? At least somebody benefited from their attempt to pat themselves on the back. Makes me sick


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 11, 2015)

I knew a guy who made toys for the kids in a local hospital for Christmas. He wanted to remain anonymous. He wasn't doing it for praise from man but out of the goodness of his heart. His recognition was from God but his motive was bringing joy to the kids.


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## Hoot (Dec 11, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> Have you seen on the news where all these churches are caling in a pizza delivery person, on stage, in front of cameras, and giving large cash tips, as much as $2000. The money is not the issue, it is the cameras, for one, the fact they they are copying each other as if original #2. Everything is done for men to see, especially the church. Can anything good be done with a proper motive? At least somebody benefited from their attempt to pat themselves on the back. Makes me sick



That is because many churches exist for the real purpose of being a business to generate a tax-free profit, and they used a clever advertising ploy.  Stunts like that will draw in more people who want to "see and be seen", and bring in yet more money for the collection plates.

Isn't greed one of the "Cardinal sins"?


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## hobbs27 (Dec 12, 2015)

For some its all about making money while making people feel good.


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## JustUs4All (Dec 12, 2015)

There will always be those who act for show.  It is extra sad when it is a church.

I had a friend who spent a significant amount of his time down at Grady Hospital where he volunteered to hold and comfort crack babies.  Most of them were of a different race from this fellow. Very few people knew that he did this.  He could have used the good publicity too, he was an IRS Agent.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 12, 2015)

JustUs4All said:


> There will always be those who act for show.  It is extra sad when it is a church.
> 
> I had a friend who spent a significant amount of his time down at Grady Hospital where he volunteered to hold and comfort crack babies.  Most of them were of a different race from this fellow. Very few people knew that he did this.  He could have used the good publicity too, he was an IRS Agent.



Very inspirational and a tad bit funny, amen!


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## Israel (Dec 13, 2015)

The same issue with cameras in the church are those of having cameras in the bedroom.
If something intimate is "supposed" to be going on, cameras put the lie to that.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 13, 2015)

Sadly, I don't have a good attitude about this. My opinion, based on my observations, knowing that my observations don't define another's experience is that the church's focus is on attendance and the "show". They do nothing if their is no audience to feed a desire for affirmation. This is why so many would rather travel the globe  [missions] than help out a neighbor in need


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 13, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> For some its all about making money while making people feel good.


I don't watch him, but walking through the house today, it happened to be on. Mercy, is this all he knows. Like a one trick pony. He is good at that one trick. Very good. An awesome motivational speaker. But, it's always the same.


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## JB0704 (Dec 14, 2015)

It is good to see a somewhat cynical thread not get derailed by folks attacking the messenger.  I find that refreshing.

I agree with the OP, and Hoot nailed it here:



			
				Hoot said:
			
		

> That is because many churches exist for the real purpose of being a business to generate a tax-free profit, and they used a clever advertising ploy. Stunts like that will draw in more people who want to "see and be seen", and bring in yet more money for the collection plates.



Having a peek behind the curtain was enough to turn me away from it all.  Disgusting.  More than that is this institutional "blind eye" that folks feel better about themselves for turning.


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## hawglips (Dec 14, 2015)

They have their reward....


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## bulldawgborn (Dec 14, 2015)

hawglips said:


> They have their reward....



Exactly what I was thinking.  And when one get's his reward on earth, he aint getting another one for the same thing in Heaven.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 14, 2015)

hawglips said:


> They have their reward....


Your right, I should have this attitude from now on. It just infuriates me that some will try to draw attention to themselves in lieu of what Jesus has done


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 14, 2015)

JB0704 said:


> It is good to see a somewhat cynical thread not get derailed by folks attacking the messenger.  I find that refreshing.


 I do appreciate the folks here who tolerate my rants. I really do hate that I harbor this mindset.


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## JB0704 (Dec 14, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> I do appreciate the folks here who tolerate my rants. I really do hate that I harbor this mindset.



I used to rant a lot more on here than I do these days.  Not sure I hate that I harbor the feelings I have, as they are not the feelings I set out to have, but were developed through experience.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 15, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> I do appreciate the folks here who tolerate my rants. I really do hate that I harbor this mindset.


Or maybe this particular rant is completely justified.
These churches whether justified or not are representatives of Christianity to the outside world/society.
A common observation from the outside looking in, again whether justified or not, is that you guys seem to want to clean everybody's house but your own.
Does it have a negative impact on how Christianity is viewed? Should that matter?
I know it would matter to me.


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## Israel (Dec 15, 2015)

WaltL1 said:


> Or maybe this particular rant is completely justified.
> These churches whether justified or not are representatives of Christianity to the outside world/society.
> A common observation from the outside looking in, again whether justified or not, is that you guys seem to want to clean everybody's house but your own.
> Does it have a negative impact on how Christianity is viewed? Should that matter?
> I know it would matter to me.



No one is responsible for what his neighbor sees or claims to not see. Men are either faithful in what they see or not.

We paint the lines of our lanes as broadly or narrowly as we wish. It will be made plain from whose instruction each line is drawn
God calls no man to represent christianity.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 15, 2015)

Israel said:


> No one is responsible for what his neighbor sees or claims to not see. Men are either faithful in what they see or not.
> 
> We paint the lines of our lanes as broadly or narrowly as we wish. It will be made plain from whose instruction each line is drawn
> God calls no man to represent christianity.



If you love something wouldn't you care how it got represented to others?


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## Israel (Dec 15, 2015)

WaltL1 said:


> If you love something wouldn't you care how it got represented to others?



That is the point, no?


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 15, 2015)

WaltL1 said:


> Or maybe this particular rant is completely justified.
> These churches whether justified or not are representatives of Christianity to the outside world/society.
> A common observation from the outside looking in, again whether justified or not, is that you guys seem to want to clean everybody's house but your own.
> Does it have a negative impact on how Christianity is viewed? Should that matter?
> I know it would matter to me.


Not sure I understand, your point, maybe no point at all, just a friendly response. But it got me to thinking. I think I would feel the same if it were anybody, any religion... or group. But then... publishers clearing house takes cameras everywhere to give out checks and that does not incite me to anger? Pondering...


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## gordon 2 (Dec 15, 2015)

I went to a Sunday service a couple of  weeks ago- that is not my usual place of worship. I was offered coffee by an usher when in my seat just before the service began. During the service people ( adults and children) were drinking carbonated beverages and kids were sharing candies between the rows of chairs.

I suppose that ordering take out is not a great leap. And tipping well would probably have been ok with this not so affluent congragation of saints where people work hard for their bucks. They would have ided with the pizza guy. 

In any case what was called worship service by this church group seemed more of an informal bible study session to me and I suppose coffee and candies are not out of place when studying.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 15, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> I went to a Sunday service a couple of  weeks ago- that is not my usual place of worship. I was offered coffee by an usher when in my seat just before the service began. During the service people ( adults and children) were drinking carbonated beverages and kids were sharing candies between the rows of chairs.
> 
> I suppose that ordering take out is not a great leap. And tipping well would probably have been ok with this not so affluent congragation of saints where people work hard for their bucks. They would have ided with the pizza guy.
> 
> In any case what was called worship service by this church group seemed more of an informal bible study session to me and I suppose coffee and candies are not out of place when studying.


I agree, this day it would not be out of place..... but this was a preplanned, fabricated show using this pizza guy as a means to exalt oneself, essentially settting it up to make themselves look  good. All show. Take away the camera and glory and then see how much they give away.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 15, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> I agree, this day it would not be out of place..... but this was a preplanned, fabricated show using this pizza guy as a means to exalt oneself, essentially settting it up to make themselves look  good. All show. Take away the camera and glory and then see how much they give away.



Got ya. The're like Schrödinger's cat.


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## Israel (Dec 15, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> Got ya. The're like Schrödinger's cat.



Ha!


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 15, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> Got ya. The're like Schrödinger's cat.


Had to google that one.


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## GameMgr270 (Dec 15, 2015)

bulldawgborn said:


> Exactly what I was thinking.  And when one get's his reward on earth, he aint getting another one for the same thing in Heaven.



Matt 6:1-4, 19-21


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## Israel (Dec 16, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> Not sure I understand, your point, maybe no point at all, just a friendly response. But it got me to thinking. I think I would feel the same if it were anybody, any religion... or group. But then... publishers clearing house takes cameras everywhere to give out checks and that does not incite me to anger? Pondering...



Ya gotta love Gordon's mention of Schrodinger's cat. Not that I understand much about the physics it was formulated to address, nor even all the ramifications of simultaneous states...but I have read some of what Jesus has said.
A man is to be in this "simultaneous state"  (if we can agree with what seems to be said) in regards to left hand/right hand and the giving of alms...which I suppose is about as best an example for a "good work"...giving what one has, to the poor. 

One could say (actually...could one?)...perhaps better "one might say" that the doing of a "good" is to be so unminded as to go unnoticed?
But, if a man sets out to "do good"...won't this always be frustrated in his acceptance of that premise...how will he ever know he has "done a good thing"?
What hope can there be for one so disposed? Isn't all the "trying to be good" so undercut there he must...in most practical senses of life...rely on something else as "motive"?

So...can it be this "mindless" act of good is so purely just action...without thought and intent to do good, an ultimate, pure act of the nature of the thing...that like Schrodinger's cat...it is so very dependent upon an observer to determine the nature of it? Is this act "dead"...or "alive". To the actor...it is simply flowing, a matter of its being, born neither of intent to "do good" or avoid the evil of not "doing the act".

So it is also consistent (is it? I am not sure of much of anything anymore, except that Jesus is taking me places my surety, of myself, doesn't "work") that the "sheep" who were totally oblivious in visiting the Lord while sick, clothing the Lord while naked, feeding the Lord while hungry...are told to come in, while to goats, well...goats go elsewhere.
The sheep did not say "yes, I knew it was you cause I read that scripture and "tried" to be obedient...believing you were really that sick guy named Tom...or that naked guy named Mike...etc."

Seems like there may be a bunch who preached, taught, maybe evangelized, worked "miracles"...maybe did all the stuff it looks like we are "being told to do"...and really...are workers of iniquity.

I don't believe I can do anything "mindlessly" unless...and this is where I am kinda glued right now....I really believe...




I was gonna say "in mercy"....but I think I don't need to add anything to "believe".

(This is like a simultaneous state perhaps? The fragrance of life to life, and the fragrance of death to death? Depending upon the estate of the observer.)


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## Fuzzy D Fellers (Dec 16, 2015)

Philippians 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.


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## Israel (Dec 16, 2015)

Migmack said:


> Philippians 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.



yeah...seems at best we get "our" view. I suppose we could ask the pizza fellow who got the big tip..."what do you think of this?'


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## Hoot (Dec 16, 2015)

I wonder if Pavlov's dog chased Schrodinger's cat.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 16, 2015)

Hoot said:


> I wonder if Pavlov's dog chased Schrodinger's cat.



That's a hoot right there. Don't care who u are.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 16, 2015)

Israel said:


> yeah...seems at best we get "our" view. I suppose we could ask the pizza fellow who got the big tip..."what do you think of this?'



In all seriousness... did not Paul suggest that people eat at home before the service?


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## Fuzzy D Fellers (Dec 16, 2015)

Y'all sound like  phaorosee, but to short sighted to see it.  Paul wrote if Jesus is preached rejoice. However, yall want to burn them down with law. Hypocrisy is what I'm reading.


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## Israel (Dec 16, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> In all seriousness... did not Paul suggest that people eat at home before the service?


Yes. 
And I am going to hazard a guess that a 2,000$ tip doesn't come from a 12 or 20 member congregation (but man, I could sure be wrong about that)
So, there they are left trying to "rightly divide" 8 slices (unless they ordered a Sicilian) amongst what I (again am only guessing) is probably about 100? 500? 1000? people.
Yeah, it might be better to eat at home.


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## Fuzzy D Fellers (Dec 16, 2015)

Israel said:


> yeah...seems at best we get "our" view. I suppose we could ask the pizza fellow who got the big tip..."what do you think of this?'



I didn't realize you were above the writings of Paul.  Was it your tithes?  Does this church not speak of Jesus? Who are you to go against the bible which teaches that if in false pretense Jesus name is preach we shall rejoice?


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## gordon 2 (Dec 16, 2015)

Migmack said:


> Y'all sound like  phaorosee, but to short sighted to see it.  Paul wrote if Jesus is preached rejoice. However, yall want to burn them down with law. Hypocrisy is what I'm reading.



Yea, but you'll never meet such kinder and more patient hypocrites, and it is certainly the case with me, knowing that I am the worst of the lot. And being the worst, the law that I'm holding back on for His sake and theirs, is actually making me feel sick, like the original post mentions. I feel sick because I'm not letting both barrels of the law fly...


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## Fuzzy D Fellers (Dec 16, 2015)

The adulterers do you cast the stone or grab their hand and help them pray forgiveness? Jesus holds their hand.


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## Fuzzy D Fellers (Dec 16, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> Yea, but you'll never meet such kinder and more patient hypocrites, and it is certainly the case with me, knowing that I am the worst of the lot. And being the worst, the law that I'm holding back on for His sake and theirs, is actually making me feel sick, like the original post mentions. I feel sick because I'm not letting both barrels of the law fly...



The only law we are given is love.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 16, 2015)

Migmack said:


> Y'all sound like  phaorosee, but to short sighted to see it.  Paul wrote if Jesus is preached rejoice. However, yall want to burn them down with law. Hypocrisy is what I'm reading.


I see your point, Who am I to judge someone else's servant.  But this was designed for their glory, not for Jesus. In lieu of what Jesus has done, how dare they try to divert glory intended for him to themselves through a contemplated show, stolen from another church I might add.


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## Israel (Dec 17, 2015)

Migmack said:


> I didn't realize you were above the writings of Paul.  Was it your tithes?  Does this church not speak of Jesus? Who are you to go against the bible which teaches that if in false pretense Jesus name is preach we shall rejoice?



I believe you may have missed the point in my response you quoted.That being that it could be "too easy" to find fault in a thing without considering all the ramifications. 

To the delivery man receiving the tip, he might have gone home praising God in his heart for a generosity he had never previously experienced. And in this situation I might be found "fighting God" were I to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
But again...if you care to make a "law" found in Paul's writings, of which I am sure you could find enough to easily accuse me, or others...no doubt it's also a simple thing.
Open the box. 
But, yes, I am rightly judged a hypocrite. But, seeing that is just like shooting fish in a barrel. Even so called "unbelievers" have enough discernment to nail me there.

So, speaking of barrels, if you have another to unload, help a brother out, looks like I'm only wounded.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 17, 2015)

Migmack said:


> The only law we are given is love.



Amen. And it (this love) causes much joy, and yet in fraternal sympathy suffering and pain is mine over Paul's dig to the foolish Galatians --which I deem not unlike 1gr8bldr's wholesome complaint.

"I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?" Paul to the Galatians.

Now my question might be, " Is the word preached through the play of a significant tipping  of the pizza delivery boy  who is delivering his goods to the worship service of the Galatians? Who will receive the Spirit for this manner of preaching?"


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## centerpin fan (Dec 17, 2015)

I'm not sure who is trolling whom in this thread.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 17, 2015)

centerpin fan said:


> I'm not sure who is trolling whom in this thread.



Merry Christmas bros. I never once thought of someone trolling in this tread before you brought it up. Maybe you have a point...


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## elfiii (Dec 17, 2015)

WaltL1 said:


> Does it have a negative impact on how Christianity is viewed? Should that matter?
> I know it would matter to me.



No, because God judges me on my sins alone, not the sins of others.


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