# Going to give it a try!



## tsharp

I picked this up a week ago, and I'm going to try an make a knife. Wish me luck. I pick them up at a machine shop I use all the time.


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## Duff

Good luck sharp. Knife makers have my total respect, especially the ones on here. Artist!!!


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## tsharp

Yes they are the BEST in my book! I hope they don't beat me up to bad.


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## dawgwatch

Good luck...you will never know unless you try...


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## Miguel Cervantes

Take lots of pics and keep us in the loop. This should be an educational project.


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## Anvil Head

Are you just going to grind the blade and bevels out and leave the steel tempered as is? Or do you plan to reheat-treat the steel?

If you plan to just grind the blade out and leave as is, do everything bear handed....to hot to hold dip in water to cool; take your time and use sharp fresh belts on you grinder. Don't waste a file trying to shape the Starrets - they are as hard as your file and will dull it quickly. Side grinder will get you there the quickest but you need to be skilled with "feather" grinding techniques or you will get the thinner sections too hot too fast. 

Note: Never could get a spec sheet from Starret on the alloyed steel they use for those blades, but they are not simple hi-carbon and reheat-treatment would be trial and error at best.

ps - remember the blade you have broke clean like a piece of glass, so it is high hard. It will be difficult to sharpen but will hold an edge. It will also be more brittle than a regular blade so no prying with it. Also you will need to use a carbide bit to drill any additional holes in the tang, regular bits will just burn up.

Good luck with your project and let us know how it turns out.


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## tsharp

Thanks for the information Anvil. I did cut 2 blades out with a cut off wheel. I started to grind them down and like you said I cooled them of with a water when they were getting hot. I did try to drill the handle with no luck. I do have a cutting torch, I may be able to heat the handle part and let it cool on it's own. Removing the Teflon coating is a job in itself. I have a very long way to go. I did start building a 2"x72" belt sander. Just waiting for the machine shop to machine my 6" wheel to fit the electric motor. Mr. Anvil if you take a look at the thread everything motorizes atvs etc. below look up the tread, new build.


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## T-N-T

Lookink good T!


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## Anvil Head

You can possibly soften the tang/handle area for drilling with the torch but a lot depends (again) on the steel alloy composition. Try a piece of the cut off scrap first. Clamp in vice and  heat to cherry red then just let cool to touch and try drilling. It's still going to be hard next to where it is clamped in vice.
If this works and makes it drillable then do the following:
make some safe jaws from sheet aluminum (soda can will do) and clamp the blade end in the vice up to the choil area. The vice will act as a heat sink and the aluminum will protect the blade from scratches. Heat the entire tang to cherry red and let cool same as test piece. Be sure to center punch for drill spots and use fresh sharp drill bits. Recommend at leas an 1/8" pilot hole first if you plan to use larger pins or corby bolts to attach handle scales.
Also recommend you make sure you have the blade sections full finished with primary coarse bevel established before you install handles. Easier to do without scales in the way.


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## tsharp

Mr. Anvil thanks for the info. Week after next I will visit the machine shop if they have more blades laying around I will ship you some if you want a few. They just throw them away.


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## Anvil Head

Thank you. Never turned down steel with potential. Be glad to take a couple of broken ones off your hands. Sending a pm with address.
I think the last Starretts that crossed my bench (many moons ago) wound up as book makers' skives. Very specialized leather skive for taper thinning fine thin leather. Still using them.


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## Anvil Head

Meant to add in the "drilling" post to look at your center punch point before and after you strike. If it looks like it dulled the least little bit you are not going to be able to drill with normal HSS bits and will need carbide bits instead - alloy issue I referred to. The cheap masonary bits will do but they won't last long and small ones will usually only get you one hole each.


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## Razor Blade

Hey tsharp, to add to what Carl was saying, dont forget to finish the fronts of the handles that point towards the blade before gluing them on the knife. Once again, its easier to do before they are glued on the blade.


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## Anvil Head

Good point Scottie, just trying to get him past the holes and didn't think about the scale issue.


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## Hooked On Quack

Tbro, if you can build a boat from the ground up, purty sho you can make a knife !!!


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## tsharp

Ok Guys don't laugh I have total respect for you Guys. It's ALOT HARDER then I expected to make a first class knife. #1 I need the right tools for sure! #2 I need the right stock to make the blade and #3 I need to take my time. This blade is made out some very hard steel. Can't drill it, I used my torch and burned a very small hole for the pins.  This knife is very sharp I think it well hold a edge. Well with all that said here are 2 pictures I took.


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## Razor Blade

Nice job sir. They get better and better.


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## Pointpuller

Thats awesome tsharp.  Great job.  Love to see someone take on a project and see it through. Good looking knife.


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## Anvil Head

Well....see there! Looks like you have all the right ideas on what it takes. Now study up a bit on materials, choose some more "workable" steel, and work a little harder at fit/finish. You're pretty much good in the mechanics and overall shape/design.
That ought to be a good serviceable little knife. Go try to wear her out now and see how she holds up. Take note of any "hot spots" in your hand as you use her. They will tell you more about handle design changes (if you need to make any).
Now make some leather britches for her before she takes a bite.

ps - was kind of figuring you'd have a tough time with the holes. My thinking is that is some kind of "A" series alloy steel. They are a bit tricky to "spot" or "sectional" soften. Might try cleaning up the torched holes with a small masonary bit before assembly.


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## dawgwatch

very good.....your right about needing the right tools and a lot of patience, practice, and time...none the less it is a very satisfying thing to finish the first one....


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## T-N-T

Very nice!  That thing will get the job done for sure. 
Now let's see the next one


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## tsharp

Thanks for all the great information and comments. Now I started building my tools supply to make it easier, if you want to call it that. Someone gave me 2 of the tools, a Craftsman scroll saw and a Ryobi drum sander. I then purchase a Band saw and started making a 2"x 72" belt sander. I picked up my 1 1/2" HP electric motor today the machine shop installed my 2"x 6" wheel. I also build me a new work table.


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## Anvil Head

Fozzy Bear would be proud.......Movin right along, chug a chug....


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## tsharp

I laid out how I wanted my belt sander that I'm building, and I changed a few things this morning. I worked on the belt sander for a couple of hours and completed the welding. Made the tracking wheel, still have to install the spring for the tension. Any advice or more information would help, Thanks Tim.


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## T-N-T

Sweet.


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## Anvil Head

Looking pretty solid so far. 
Long as you are fabricating - go ahead and make up a bar with spindle for 8 - 10 contact wheels and a yoke bar for small radius double bearing contact wheels in 5/8", 1" & 1 1/4", you won't regret this later.
Might also want to weld up a verticle stand for a portaband metal saw similar to one in pic below - easy to do and extremely hand tool.


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## tsharp

Thanks all that's on the lists. I really want a port-a-band for sure.


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## onedude

here is some info I found about the red stripe blade.
Red Stripe is an M2 steel - here are some of its properties...

Carbon 0.78 - 1.05 

Chromium 3.75 - 4.5 

Iron Balance 

Manganese 0.15 - 0.4 

Molybdenum 4.5 - 5.5 

Phosphorus 0.03 max 

Silicon 0.2 - 0.45 

Sulphur 0.03 max 

Tungsten 5.5 - 6.75 

Vanadium 1.75 - 2.2 

Heat Treatment: Preheat at 1450 F before heating for hardening. Then heat rapidly from 1450 F to 2200 F and hold for 3 to 5 minutes followed by quenching in oil, air or salt bath.

Forging: Forge at 2050 F down to 1700 F. Do Not forge below 1700 F. 

Annealing: Anneal at 1625 F and slow furnace cool at 40 F per hour, or less.

Tempering: Temper at 1050 F for a hardness of Rockwell C 60 to 65.

Points to ponder...

i) attempt forging below 1700F and the material crumbles like cottage cheese

ii) to anneal the blade so that one can make chisels, think about that cooling rate < 40F/hr! 

That translates into something like 30 hours of cooling. It's actually less than that as you cool it slowly down to about 500 - 600F and then switch off the furnace and leave it there to cool down further overnight or something. (working from memory - my data sheets are at home)

What it boils down to is that some steels are beyond old blacksmithing techniques. Like David, I have a furnace with a programmable digital controller that allows me to ramp up and down as required. Might take some of the fun out of heat treatment but it's consistent and repeatable.


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## tsharp

Thanks lot of work. Easier to buy blades that takes less time. I see the blades laying around the machine shop so I thought I give it a go. Like I said they throw them away.


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## onedude

I made a couple of knives with them. I could not drill holes in it for the handles. I had to grind a slot for them. I even heated it to red hot and wrapped it in some ceramic wool with a big piece of red hot metal and let it slow cool for hours and still could not drill it. then I read  the specks to anneal and saw why that did not work. I don't have the equip. to anneal this stuff. Then I noticed it was tempered at 1050 degrees, so I figured I could grind it without getting hot enough to lose its hardness and you can but it will take a lot of belts if you grind from the cutting edge up to the spine. Mine ended up just being beveled a little ways up the blade. It wears a belt out really quick. I didn't get to try a ceramic belt. It is a lot easier to make a knife out of 1084 or something like that.


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## tsharp

I also tried heating it with my cutting torch still couldn't drill, I then heated the spot where I decide to put the pin and cut or melted a small hole. I must of went through 2 packs of belts. A bad way to try and start a new hobby. But once I did get the knife sharp it is VERY VERY sharp. I going to buy the right stock next time.


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## onedude

We make a lot of scraps out of them at work. We scrap gasket material and stuff like that  with them.


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## Anvil Head

Thanks for posting that info Dougie. Knew someone had it on hand.
Like I said, makes great leather working blades. I used side grinder to bulk out the primary bevel (lot cheaper than belts) then cleaned and finished with ceramic and micron belts.
They make great scrapers and sens.
Tsharp - now you know why we try to get everyone to start with a known blade steel like 1084. Makes a great blade and so much easier to work with with regular shop tools. Gotta learn to tie on the hook if you want to fish.


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## tsharp

Thanks for the great information. I'm almost finish the last one I cut last week The handle is made from acrylic that most oldest son makes duck calls with. I have a little more sanding with wet sand paper then apply a coat of sealant. I will try to finish my belt sander I'm working on this week.


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## Pointpuller

Looks great tsharp.  Im impressed.  All this time I thought you was just a cook and fisherman.  haha 
Multi skills showing up.


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## tsharp

Thanks Point a long way to go yet. I made the pins out of a brass welding rod. Cheap old me.


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## Anvil Head

Looking good T! Nothing wrong with repurposing materials, and brass rod's not all that cheap. Little hint for the next one: roll the brass pin material on a hard surface under a coarse file to give it a slight knurling texture. It will help the epoxy lock everything up tight. That acrylic looks almost like bone in the first pic, not a bad look.


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## acmech

Nice job, belt sander looks great as well.


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## tsharp

Thanks acmech.


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## BriarPatch99

Tsharp ... Don't know how I missed this thread .... 

Looks like you started out just like I did with a unknown metals ... few tools and lots of ideas !!  I like where you went so far .... 

Lot of great guys on here that don't mind sharing the "learning" they got( I suspect they got most of their learning the same way) ....  

I  am too gathering materials to build a 2" x 72" belt grinder ... have most of what I need ... just haven't put it together yet ....  some thing you may want to look at is a spring loaded idler to keep the belt tight ... I know you have the bar adjustment ... but in my research ...I see lots of spring tension ....  I am sure these guys that have been at this for a while could 'xplain this a whole lot better than a beginner  ... 

I am retired ... so I need a job to pay for the tools I need ... but then I would not have the time to "build" and "tinker" .... so I'm in a circle going no where fast !!  

Good Luck and hope to see you at one of the Knife Makers Guild meetings soon ...

Here is a link to some Corby rivets ... they work well for the handles ... Pop's Knife Supply is where to get'm .... but this shows what they look like .... http://www.knifemaking.com/category-s/363.htm


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## tsharp

BP I have a compressing spring in the adjustment pulley. You have to push down, then adjust the front 2 wheel plate? then release and the spring pushes upward. I place a 30# compressing spring. Most of the steel used was all free, even the electric motor and the machine work to install the wheel. I may have 30$ invested in it so far. I you lived closer I would give you the left over steel.


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## BriarPatch99

Great .... I need to follow your lead ... I ain't got that far yet....

After going back and looking closer ... I see how the spring works.... I should look twice before I open my mouth!

I got everything I need except the idler wheels .... And a spring !


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## Gobbler Down

tsharp said:


> I laid out how I wanted my belt sander that I'm building, and I changed a few things this morning. I worked on the belt sander for a couple of hours and completed the welding. Made the tracking wheel, still have to install the spring for the tension. Any advice or more information would help, Thanks Tim.


Next time you need to drill a hardened steel and your regular bits just don't cut it- use a high quality "masonry" bit!!! Works every time!  I've had steel laugh at my high speed carbide bits and whimper like a kicked coyote when hit with the masonry bit.  Give it a try!!!!


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## Anvil Head

While you are definitely correct Jim, on the masonary bits the key words are "high quality". This is where one has to pay attention for sure. The cheaper blister packed ones apparently use a much lower temp braze process to lock in the carbide bit. If they are the least bit dull they will heat up very fast and often hit the majic release temp and often sling a chip of carbide at a high velocity. Make sure you wear safety glasses and or a good shield when using these for steel (as they are not captive in a concrete hole when doing this).
***Not to say it is not important to wear safety gear/glasses anytime you use a power tool like a drill.***
Be safe out there even when you are having fun.


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## tsharp

I had a chance today to prime and topcoat my sander. I also wanted to show BP how I made the tension wheel. As you can see I place a push spring in the upright bracket then place the adjustment wheel bracket in the upright bracket. I have a little more to do, but I did make a test run with it already. BP if you need a spring I have another I can ship you.


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## BriarPatch99

That is a cool idea .... I've seen many plans with pull springs ... a few with compression springs ....But none that work like yours... thank for the idea ....

I got to get off my rear and get back to work ....


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## tsharp

Well I started working back on my sander and I'm almost finished. I need a few more plastic knobs used to  tighten the arm and work table. 1 wire strap for the electric wire and place the cover for the electric motor. What do you'll think?


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## Pointpuller

You be in business!


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## Moonpie1

Very impressive T! That's really going to be a good addition to your new knife making endeavor.


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## BriarPatch99

That grinder looks great! Good build...


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## rayjay

Tim,,
  How is the sander/grinder working out??  Where did you get the idler wheels and the drive wheel ?  Is the surface of the drive wheel flat or crowned ?

  I have decided to build one. Just this afternoon I hit upon what I want to use for the frame. It's the front half of a riding mower frame. I will post a pic. For a motor I am thinking of using a Craftsmen 9" angle grinder that I never use. I have a lathe and milling machine so I can do just about anything I need but it's smart to use readily available stuff like your idlers and the drive wheel.

Thanks !!


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## tsharp

Sorry for the long delay. I saw that some of the builders were using skate board wheels so I ordered some from ebay. For the drive wheel I used a commercial dolly wheel once install on the electric motor I used a rasp while the motor was running and chaffed the wheel the way It was supposed to be. It's working fine just to busy to use it now.


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