# Mossyhead turkey?



## ryanwhit (May 30, 2016)

For about as long as I have been aware of the idea of an ol mossyhead - the purest, wildest strain of turkey - I have had my doubts.  The notion that there was, and still is today, albeit in lower numbers, a bird that was smaller in size, darker in color, shriller in sound, and shyer in attitude, and that early explorers and taxonomists, and more recently biologists and researchers have all missed him seemed unlikely.  That he still exists today, only in some few mountainous regions and some river swamps - the places where turkeys lived when there largely were no turkeys - but exists there alongside the "other" wild turkey that is common today is honestly quite difficult for me to accept.

However, I have recently become aware of the collection of turkey that does fit the description of ol mossyhead.  I've got some information about the bird and a picture.  He was killed during the middle part of May in the mountains.  He weighed less than 15 lbs.  His gobble was said to be higher-pitched than other birds in the area.  His snood was very short and his waddles quite small.  His beard was 9+ inches and his spurs were 7/8".  


So, what does the GON brain trust think?  Is this a mossyhead turkey, a pure strain wild turkey??


----------



## herb mcclure (May 31, 2016)

*Mossyheads*

ryanwhite, glad to see your thread and shedding info. about old original gobblers. 
Scene, I have  talked and written some about these type turkeys and have hunted where turkeys of those characteristic have always lived; for 60 years. My first comment is to say. 
There are no pure original genes left in today's mountain turkeys, I don't know about swamps, as I never hunted them. Of the things you pointed out about their characteristic, I can say that the old mountain gobblers had smaller heads, smaller size waddles and were a darker color bird, than the gobblers reintroduce to vacant areas where turkeys no longer where. Today's gobblers can and do throw back to look like the mossyheads you described; as you termed them  
The most significant  difference, I would tell anyone, was the "shyer in attitude" , comment you made, and this was caused from the type hunting the turkeys had been exposed too; year around hunting by living off of the land, for years before game laws.   

I am not  a GON brain trust, just a hunter who became aware of how different turkeys were in Georgia, over 40 years ago.
herb mcclure


----------



## fountain (May 31, 2016)

That there is a good ol 2 yr old eastern wild turkey.  Nothing more, nothing less

I'm of the belief that the turkeys are the same now as they were 50 years ago.  They is no different "strain" of turkey in ga.  You may have some tiny variances between regions, but that's about it.  The only difference in the turkey 50 years ago and the turkey today is that they have had to become more adaptive to humans and a different environment


----------



## 01Foreman400 (May 31, 2016)

*My thoughts...........*

A lot more experienced hunters on this forum than me but I'll give my 2 cents worth.

Some turkeys have big spurs but little bodies and some have big bodies and little spurs.  I've killed turkeys with really long snoods and some with really short ones as well all off the same property.  I've killed birds that just everything about them was bigger than most turkeys.  Huge feet and head and fat spurs with a big body.  The next bird I killed on the same property looks just like a normal turkey.  If you have deer hunted long enough you see the same thing goes for deer as well.  Not every deer will be 200 plus pounds and have 140" of antler.  Some have darker coats or are grey in color or a double patch on their necks.  I'm in the belief it's just the way god made that individual animal.  Not that there is a super sub species.  Each individual animal is different.


----------



## 01Foreman400 (May 31, 2016)

If I hunted a property where every bird I killed on it had all the same characteristics that were unique from any of the other birds I had previously killed I'd see things in a different light.


----------



## antnye (May 31, 2016)

I couldn't say for sure.  On size I know I've killed a couple close to the interior of the cohuttas that were smallish, grown birds that were super spooky. But just over the mountain closer to the valley they are just as spooky. Just a little bigger. I just figured on the pressure making them extra spooky. Would a DNA test settle this debate? There has been arguments with brook trout. Between northern and southern strains. The DNA was tested and found to be different. The southern strain brookies don't grow as big as their northern counterparts and have slightly different coloring.  

One bird from cohuttas a few years back. 15lbs 1 1/4 sharp Spurs and 12" beard. I just figured he's an old skinny grandpa. Had some lead in him. I was using TSS. Probably why he was spooky.


----------



## Nicodemus (May 31, 2016)

fountain said:


> That there is a good ol 2 yr old eastern wild turkey.  Nothing more, nothing less
> 
> I'm of the belief that the turkeys are the same now as they were 50 years ago.  They is no different "strain" of turkey in ga.  You may have some tiny variances between regions, but that's about it.  The only difference in the turkey 50 years ago and the turkey today is that they have had to become more adaptive to humans and a different environment





Actually, up till about 45 years ago, the turkeys in the swamp behind where your Dad lives now and all the way down the river to the forks, and down the Altamaha were different from what is there now. I know, I saw it with my own eyes, and also heard it from the really old turkeys hunters who lived here and had hunted from around the turn of the century. Not just a random bird, all of them. We just didn`t ever see any of those big bronze birds like we have now. Personally, I think they were just Osceola turkeys, and that they had a further range up into south and southeast Georgia than originally thought. When the state started to restock turkeys is when the bigger different colored birds started to show up. 

Just my observations with my own eyes, and stories from the old turkey hunters of the time.


----------



## Bucky T (May 31, 2016)

I've noticed on my property in Screven C that we have big 19-20 gobblers with broad barring on their primaries. And..  We kill grown gobblers that are 15-16lbs and have very narrow, broken barring on their wings. 

The smallest gobbler I've ever seen was shot by my buddy in Greene C. We were hunting together and both sitting on 2 gobblers apiece. We struck the bird at 2pm and spun a hat around to see who would shoot. Lol. Neither one of us had a coin to flip. The bill of the hat was facing my pal, so he won. Well..  The gobbler came right in strutting and he shot him. I bet that gobbler weighed maybe 13lbs. Everything about him was small. He had needle sharp 7/8" hooks or so, 8.5" beard. He wasn't much larger than a big hen. 

I don't know much about what a "pure strain" turkey should look like. I always take note of the differences of birds I kill and what other people shoot though.


----------



## spydermon (May 31, 2016)

the reddish tips of the beard tells me its a 2 yr old too.

I thought snood length would vary with mood?


----------



## MKW (May 31, 2016)

I kill a lot of smallish gobblers here in the swamps of SC. I don't pretend to know why, but lots are in the 14-16lb range even when they have 1.25" spurs. They often have thin, broken wing bars too. They are spooky, but I attribute that to it being a heavily hunted public swamp.


----------



## goblr77 (May 31, 2016)

Turkey genes vary by location, even neighboring counties have different turkey genetics. I've hunted a particular part of Early County for the past 20 years and one out of every five or six gobblers I kill within a five mile radius will have multiple beards. Most of those birds will weigh over 20 lbs. as well. Some will weigh 22-23 lbs. Another area I hunt on the Chattahoochee River in Seminole County holds some birds that look similar to Osceolas. I'll kill one every now and then with really dark wings and broken wing bars. They'll usually weigh in the 16 lb range, with none weighing over 18-20 lbs. I was fortunate enough to kill a north GA mountain bird in the early 2000's that exhibited some of the characteristics of the birds Mr. Herb mentions. His head and waddles were abnormally small looking for a gobbler.


----------



## Roger T (May 31, 2016)

*Kinda like this one?*

Small head,short snood,small waddles, 1 1/8 spurrs, dark & skinny


----------



## ryanwhit (Jun 1, 2016)

Interesting.  It seems most folks here, or at least most that responded, are like me and don't believe in mossyheads, but do believe that there are big turkeys and little turkeys and in between turkeys.

For those that said this is a 2 year old turkey and nothing more, you and I are in agreement.  

While everything that I originally said about the bird in question is true, there is one thing I left out.  He was indeed killed in the mountains, but those mountains are in Vermont.  An interesting fact about Vermont is that the state went some 125 years without a single wild turkey in it.  By the mid 1800s, turkeys had been hunted out and were classified as extinct in the state until their reintroduction beginning in 1969.  So whatever you might think this little turkey is - straight line mossyhead, throwback to the old mossyheads, or just a little bodied turkey - he is what he is in spite of the fact that his ancestors 30 generations back or so were restocked.


----------



## turkeyed (Jun 1, 2016)

ryanwhit said:


> Interesting.  It seems most folks here, or at least most that responded, are like me and don't believe in mossyheads, but do believe that there are big turkeys and little turkeys and in between turkeys.
> 
> For those that said this is a 2 year old turkey and nothing more, you and I are in agreement.
> 
> While everything that I originally said about the bird in question is true, there is one thing I left out.  He was indeed killed in the mountains, but those mountains are in Vermont.  An interesting fact about Vermont is that the state went some 125 years without a single wild turkey in it.  By the mid 1800s, turkeys had been hunted out and were classified as extinct in the state until their reintroduction beginning in 1969.  So whatever you might think this little turkey is - straight line mossyhead, throwback to the old mossyheads, or just a little bodied turkey - he is what he is in spite of the fact that his ancestors 30 generations back or so were restocked.



Them native Vermont birds are beautiful!  Bahahahahaha


----------



## M Sharpe (Jun 1, 2016)

Here is something Lovett Williams had to say on the manner.....


"I have seen nine male-plumaged hens in Florida and examined six of them in hand.  Three of the six I dissected.  None had a discernable ovary but all three had a macroscopic oviduct.   

I have seen one gobbler-plumaged hen with spurs and one with a beard.  If a gobbler-plumaged hen with a beard and spurs were found, the specimen would appear to be a dwarf gobbler.  There is more hair is on the heads hens than the gobblers and that could account for the legendary dwarf race of turkeys called “mossy heads” or “hairy heads” mentioned in some of the older writings including Mosby and Handley’s 1943 book The Wild Turkey in Virginia"


----------



## 01Foreman400 (Jun 1, 2016)

M Sharpe said:


> Here is something Lovett Williams had to say on the manner.....
> 
> 
> "I have seen nine male-plumaged hens in Florida and examined six of them in hand.  Three of the six I dissected.  None had a discernable ovary but all three had a macroscopic oviduct.
> ...



You just went and threw a wrench in it.


----------



## Will-dawg (Jun 1, 2016)

I call them "jelly heads"


----------



## antnye (Jun 1, 2016)

So the mossy heads are cross dressers!


----------



## Timber1 (Jun 1, 2016)

Vermonts turkeys came from 21 live trapped birds from New York. Georgia's birds came from almost 5000 birds live trapped from who knows where. Id say Vermont probably has a purer
 strain of Easterns than does Georgia.


----------



## Timber1 (Jun 1, 2016)

Maybe its the corn and sunlight that are making Georgias bird light phased. I know the corn fed birds over around Johns Mtn. seem to have lighter tipped tails and the white on the head and neck has a yellowish coloration. Gobs and gobs of yellowish fat around their breasts. And they taste really good...like a Purdue chicken.


----------



## 01Foreman400 (Jun 1, 2016)

Timber1 said:


> Maybe its the corn and sunlight that are making Georgias bird light phased. I know the corn fed birds over around Johns Mtn. seem to have lighter tipped tails and the white on the head and neck has a yellowish coloration. Gobs and gobs of yellowish fat around their breasts. And they taste really good...like a Purdue chicken.



Global warming.


----------



## Curtis-UGA (Jun 1, 2016)

Yet naïve turkeys are dying off at an alarming rate every spring and no one seems to be concerned.


----------



## M Sharpe (Jun 1, 2016)

01Foreman400 said:


> You just went and threw a wrench in it.



Nope! Just defining the term "mossyhead" that Ryan used. This should have nothing to due with the strain of turkey. I agree with what MKW and Nicodemus both pointed out. In fact, it would not surprise me if the turkeys Mr. Herb has written about weren't the same turkey as the Osceola.


----------



## Timber1 (Jun 1, 2016)

antnye said:


> So the mossy heads are cross dressers!



Now i know what my dad meant when he told me he tried to make a gobbler out of a hen.


----------



## antnye (Jun 1, 2016)

Curtis-UGA said:


> Yet naïve turkeys are dying off at an alarming rate every spring and no one seems to be concerned.



#turkeylivesmatter


----------



## antnye (Jun 1, 2016)

Timber1 said:


> Now i know what my dad meant when he told me he tried to make a gobbler out of a hen.




Just get him/her past the check station


----------



## Timber1 (Jun 1, 2016)

I see less light coloring on birds i kill on Cohutta. Very rare to kill one with light tipped tail feathers. Dont know if its diet related or what. Killed one a couple years ago that had a pair of matching solid black  wing primary's. But what I notice most about the birds off the mountain is the way their heads glow white when they are strutting. It is almost spooky and mesmerizing. But not so much that I forget to squeeze the trigger on one.


----------



## ryanwhit (Jun 1, 2016)

M Sharpe said:


> Here is something Lovett Williams had to say on the manner.....
> 
> 
> "I have seen nine male-plumaged hens in Florida and examined six of them in hand.  Three of the six I dissected.  None had a discernable ovary but all three had a macroscopic oviduct.
> ...



Sounds like even Lovett was grasping at straws trying to figure out what these folks were talking about in the old books.  There is little doubt that Lovett had in hand more wild turkeys, either alive or dead, than anyone else that  has ever lived.  I don't know that to be fact, but just based on his occupation and career work, and the amount of research done in FL before most other states did any at all, and for the length of time that he did it, I'd be very surprised if that statement is not fact.  Someone please correct me if you know otherwise.  Of all of those turkeys that he examined closely, he had to guess that the mossyhead might have been a male-plumaged hen...one of which he never saw with both beard and spurs.




Timber1 said:


> Vermonts turkeys came from 21 live trapped birds from New York. Georgia's birds came from almost 5000 birds live trapped from who knows where. Id say Vermont probably has a purer
> strain of Easterns than does Georgia.



Vermont's turkeys did come from New York.  There was not a wild turkey alive in New York from 1850 to 1950ish.  New York's reintroduced turkeys came from Pennsylvania.  PA had some remnant populations, but also had the well known, largely unsuccessful game farm program which began prior to 1930 and lasted until after turkeys were moved from there to NY.  

My guess is that one is just as pure as another.


----------



## ryanwhit (Jun 1, 2016)

M Sharpe said:


> Nope! Just defining the term "mossyhead" that Ryan used. This should have nothing to due with the strain of turkey. I agree with what MKW and Nicodemus both pointed out. In fact, it would not surprise me if the turkeys Mr. Herb has written about weren't the same turkey as the Osceola.



I agree with what Mike and Nic said also.  Seems like birds are killed regularly with Osceola characteristics well north of what is considered the line.


----------



## MKW (Jun 1, 2016)

Yep...this is a wing from a turkey killed in SC...about 30 minutes from NC.


----------



## M Sharpe (Jun 1, 2016)

ryanwhit said:


> I agree with what Mike and Nic said also.  Seems like birds are killed regularly with Osceola characteristics well north of what is considered the line.



Yep!! That money line used to be down around Ocala. Look at it now! It's almost up to GA now.


----------



## six (Jun 1, 2016)

As a kid I personally saw several Osceola's in boxes being loaded in the back of a Florida Game and Fresh Water Fish Commision truck in AVPBR in the late 60's.  I even saw their little observation blind/tent they used when they caught the turkeys.   The GW driving the truck told my Dad and I that they were trading the turkeys for deer, and the ones we saw were headed to TN as soon as they got loaded up.  Now whether or not he told us the truth I don't know.   But I know for a fact there were probably a 12-15 turkeys, which I now know were Osceola's headed somewhere.  Back then they were just turkeys, never heard of an Osceola.  The Game Warden told us they had traded turkeys to several states for deer.   And AVPBR is just a few miles North of Fisheating Creek which was also a WMA back then.

Oh, and the boxes didn't have NWTF on them either.


----------



## fountain (Jun 1, 2016)

I see turkeys(gobblers) and try my best to kill them.  Don't matter what they look like to me.


----------



## Toddmann (Jun 1, 2016)

Congrats on your bird Ryan. Great pic.

Most adult birds here in central ga usually are 18+ pounds. The smallest adult birds I have harvested here in central GA both came off of PNWR. One was a 2 year old that had 6 beards. He weighed 15.5# and the other was an older bird that had 1.375" Spurs needle sharp and weighed just over 16#. Small birds around here are rare. Maybe those 2 escaped from the mountains. Also, last year the birds my oldest son harvested at RC WMA looked like Osceolas.


----------



## M Sharpe (Jun 1, 2016)

six said:


> Oh, and the boxes didn't have NWTF on them either.




You should be ..... for posting that!!!


----------



## sman (Jun 1, 2016)

fountain said:


> I see turkeys(gobblers) and try my best to kill them.  Don't matter what they look like to me.



Shameful. 

DNA test should be conducted first. Then a genealogy chart should be constructed. It the genes are diluted, you should not hunt those tame gene birds.


----------



## sman (Jun 1, 2016)

Back when the mountain men bout killed turkeys to the point of extinction, what were the people in the piedmont and costal areas doing with their turkeys? Surely they wouldn't have shot them for food as well?  No way.


----------



## M Sharpe (Jun 1, 2016)

I think a lot of you people miss the whole point of native turkeys. No one has ever said that the mountains were the only place that native turkeys existed. Native turkeys existed in the most remote places, whether it be mountains or swamps. Are there some different turkeys? I think so!! I think there were turkeys that were never killed out and I also think there were turkeys that were mixed with domestic blood. Hunters for the most part are lazy!! Now days if they can't drive a vehicle or a 4 wheeler there, they don't hunt it!! How many of you guys would head straight up the side of a steep inclined mountain to get to a turkey?? Walk to the bottom of Penitentiary Cove and back out to answer that one....How many of you would wade water that is chest deep to get to a turkey??

I don't remember when the last deer was killed either, but that happened as well. Google Author Woody and read about his father killing the last deer in his part of the country. That was the reason Author gave it his all to re-establish the deer in north GA!!  I used to hunt a place where an old man that owned the place, bought deer from Wisconsin and released them on his property on the Ogeechee River in Bulloch Co. Many of you don't remember those days!! I also remember the days when you turned your dogs loose on a deer track, all you had to do was wait within shotgun range of where you turned loose on him at and eventually he'd come right back through there. Headed back to Swamp Stewart!


----------



## MKW (Jun 1, 2016)

M Sharpe said:


> How many of you would wade water that is chest deep to get to a turkey??



I will!!


----------



## DLH_Woodstock (Jun 1, 2016)

...How many of you would wade water that is chest deep to get to a turkey??

Well I guess if I can do it in 18 degree weather and break ice for a little bitty duck! I'll do it for a 20lbs turkey at 70 degrees. Just saying! But I can't do the mountains any more because of age and injuries.


----------



## Toddmann (Jun 1, 2016)

I use to wade across!


----------



## Roger T (Jun 1, 2016)

I think all the native turkeys were killed out by 1900 & the the ole timers were huntin buzzards & didnt know it. Lol!( i kill me sometimes!)   They restocked the birds from all over to all over with little regard or documentation from where to where, its been provin that at least 3 subspecies has been mixed so it be fair to say that all have prolly been mixed. It seems The biggest issue that folks have with this whole real  mtn/swamp/native turkey thingy is that the "new ole timers" are comin across as to sayin that us "new timers" are less skilled/lazy & hunt tamed pen raised birds & couldnt kill the real turkeys that yuin hunted & killed back in the day. I dont know about the old native birds cause i wasnt around back then, im 45yr old &  have been turkey huntin since the early 80's and personally dont care which turkey im huntin. I know i dont hunt a tamed bird cause if I screw up just a little in my set the game is over, he runs or flys off. To much prestige is being put on hunting & whos better at it. Hunt your birds & be happy


----------



## turkeykirk (Jun 2, 2016)

M Sharpe said:


> How many of you guys would head straight up the side of a steep inclined mountain to get to a turkey?? Walk to the bottom of Penitentiary Cove and back out to answer that one....How many of you would wade water that is chest deep to get to a turkey??
> 
> Don't know which is worst: wading(swimming) across a river to get to a gobbler only to have him fly over to the side I came from or climb a mountain to get to him only to have him fly across to the next ridge!
> I have done both. I prefer climbing (getting soaking wet from sweat) vs. swimming (getting wet from the river). At least I can keep my gun dry!


----------



## brittonl (Jun 2, 2016)

For me, I really enjoy the history a lot of you are sharing here. I can only imagine the efforts that folks went through years ago restocking & even finding available birds to plant. I'm thankful for their efforts honestly & do my best to reap what they sowed every spring & remain grateful. I'm a believer of the various strands of birds & would guess that the Eastern is prob amongst the most varied. Don't know that as fact, just a guess.

Some 3-4 years ago I was fortunate to take two mature birds on the same set an hour or so apart. This was in Paulding Co & one I aged a 2yr old & the other maybe 3yr old, very little diff in spur length between the two if I recall correctly. As you can see in the pic, the size difference was very obvious. Again, both killed sitting at the same tree, same afternoon, only an hour or so apart.


----------



## ryanwhit (Jun 2, 2016)

Man that's really cool.  Coloration looks the same, just ones big and ones small.


----------



## Garnto88 (Jun 2, 2016)

ryanwhit said:


> Interesting.  It seems most folks here, or at least most that responded, are like me and don't believe in mossyheads, but do believe that there are big turkeys and little turkeys and in between turkeys.
> 
> For those that said this is a 2 year old turkey and nothing more, you and I are in agreement.
> 
> While everything that I originally said about the bird in question is true, there is one thing I left out.  He was indeed killed in the mountains, but those mountains are in Vermont.  An interesting fact about Vermont is that the state went some 125 years without a single wild turkey in it.  By the mid 1800s, turkeys had been hunted out and were classified as extinct in the state until their reintroduction beginning in 1969.  So whatever you might think this little turkey is - straight line mossyhead, throwback to the old mossyheads, or just a little bodied turkey - he is what he is in spite of the fact that his ancestors 30 generations back or so were restocked.



A turkey killed late season has a tendency to be smaller in weight.. He could have weighed 18 or 20 pds in March..  He has been busy!!!!!!!


----------



## Gut_Pile (Jun 2, 2016)

Garnto88 said:


> A turkey killed late season has a tendency to be smaller in weight.. He could have weighed 18 or 20 pds in March..  He has been busy!!!!!!!



While they do lose weight, their bodies do not shrink.


----------



## jdawg351 (Jun 2, 2016)

Roger T said:


> I think all the native turkeys were killed out by 1900 & the the ole timers were huntin buzzards & didnt know it. Lol!( i kill me sometimes!)   They restocked the birds from all over to all over with little regard or documentation from where to where, its been provin that at least 3 subspecies has been mixed so it be fair to say that all have prolly been mixed. It seems The biggest issue that folks have with this whole real  mtn/swamp/native turkey thingy is that the "new ole timers" are comin across as to sayin that us "new timers" are less skilled/lazy & hunt tamed pen raised birds & couldnt kill the real turkeys that yuin hunted & killed back in the day. I dont know about the old native birds cause i wasnt around back then, im 45yr old &  have been turkey huntin since the early 80's and personally dont care which turkey im huntin. I know i dont hunt a tamed bird cause if I screw up just a little in my set the game is over, he runs or flys off. To much prestige is being put on hunting & whos better at it. Hunt your birds & be happy



AMEN!!!!!       Preach on brother


----------



## herb mcclure (Jun 5, 2016)

*Mossyheads*

I being probably the one, who has spread the term "native turkey" out among today's hunters who hunt wild turkeys; more than anyone else. Therefore, I feel compelled to say a few more words relating to original wild turkeys.
First, the term "native" was what hunters of North Georgia's Mountains called the original  wild turkeys, which had always lived there.Then after wild turkeys were being released to replace vacant mountain habitat, those mountain hunters called those turkeys "stocks". This is the same way they referred to trout. Stream reared trout were called "natives" Trout put in the streams raised in a hatchery were called "stocks". (This is how the term "native" came about.
As most of you forum followers know, my turkey days go back 60 years. I have talked with hunters who were born in the late 1800's and these were men who were known as turkey hunters. Many of these turkey hunters stated that loosing the American Chestnut Trees, was more harmful to the downfall of the mountain turkeys than hunting them caused. 
Why, you may ask, weren't there turkeys in all mountain areas, and not just in high mountain areas. I was told that when the blight killed the chestnuts, the only places where chestnut had escaped the axe and saw was in high mountains and remote areas; the same as were wild turkeys also lived. 
Today's hunters who did not know of, or about original turkeys called "natives" have blown all sorts of comments about the natives; into left field. Two much has been placed on how different a native turkey looked, than today's turkeys. Yes there has been changes in the wild turkeys in the last 50 to 60 years that I have known them. The wild turkeys everywhere today, have become mixed, some turkeys a lot more, than other turkeys.
herb mcclure


----------



## blong (Jun 6, 2016)

herb mcclure said:


> I being probably the one, who has spread the term "native turkey" out among today's hunters who hunt wild turkeys; more than anyone else. Therefore, I feel compelled to say a few more words relating to original wild turkeys.
> First, the term "native" was what hunters of North Georgia's Mountains called the original  wild turkeys, which had always lived there.Then after wild turkeys were being released to replace vacant mountain habitat, those mountain hunters called those turkeys "stocks". This is the same way they referred to trout. Stream reared trout were called "natives" Trout put in the streams raised in a hatchery were called "stocks". (This is how the term "native" came about.
> As most of you forum followers know, my turkey days go back 60 years. I have talked with hunters who were born in the late 1800's and these were men who were known as turkey hunters. Many of these turkey hunters stated that loosing the American Chestnut Trees, was more harmful to the downfall of the mountain turkeys than hunting them caused.
> Why, you may ask, weren't there turkeys in all mountain areas, and not just in high mountain areas. I was told that when the blight killed the chestnuts, the only places where chestnut had escaped the axe and saw was in high mountains and remote areas; the same as were wild turkeys also lived.
> ...


Mixed with other wild turkeys or domesticated?


----------



## herb mcclure (Jun 6, 2016)

*Mossyheads*

Bong, who knows. As you know, there were mountaineers living all over the Appalachian mountains before the gov. brought them out of there homesteads; and yes, they had domestic turkeys. 
A mountain can be made of an ant-hill, about any subject one cares too. That is what is being done about wild turkeys that lived thru the early part of the ninetieth century; and by people who know nothing of what they are talking about. No offense to anyone.
herb mcclure


----------



## Timber1 (Jun 19, 2016)

Here are a couple killed this spring. One off a wma that would have had the native bird. The other off a mountain wma that would not have. Both older than 2. One probably a year older than the other and 2 pounds heavier. Shorter spurs by 1/16th and a longer beard by 1/2. Both killed after breaking strut.


----------



## herb mcclure (Jun 19, 2016)

*Mossyheads*

Timber, I don't know just what your angle is here, showing the two different birds; one that came from  WMA, which could have had the native turkey's background, and the other one, from a wma, which did not have the native bloodlines. Maybe you are just trying to make someone like me, look like a fool. That is, if I pick the wrong way. Of course, this Mossyhead thread was set up from the beginning to deceive someone into saying something to make them look foolish, before the truth was told. 

My respect for your knowledge and experience is way above everyone else, when it comes to mountain turkeys. So here goes, I will take the bait. From the limited view, of just the heads and beards and the limited statements, which don't tell a whole lot; here goes.

I am basing my answer as to which gobbler is which on the following. Last year there were no acorns in the mountains, thus probably a lighter bird. A shorter beard with a curve in it from several years of scratching up hill, and wearying it to a shorter length.  The heads are hard to tell much about.
My thinking is the gobbler laying on the ground beside the gun is the gobbler from the wma of native bloodlines.

Either right or wrong in my picking, would someone tell me, why come, after my last post on this thread, back on 6-5-2016 there were 1,622 hits then, and today 6-19-2016 there are over 2,3 80 + hits. Tha's almost 800 hits, and no one has posted until Timber did today.  What gives?
herb mcclure


----------



## Timber1 (Jun 19, 2016)

Threads run their course. People state their opinions and thoughts and move on. 
Not trying to make anyone look foolish least of all you Mr. McClure. I think your theory of the mountain birds is probably correct. Too bad it can never be proven, the nwtf would have a sub species that was a truely worthy trophy to add to their mix of half domesticated sub species. 
I couldnt zoom on the top bird's head enough to see it well without losing focus. However you can see the less defined caruncles on the neck and more subtle color changes throughout the head and neck. Also the feathers seem to grow higher up the neck on the top bird making it appear to have less neck. The top bird was taken off Cohutta, had a longer beard but shorter spurs. It also weighed in 2 pounds heavier than the other bird. I believe it to be the older bird of the two. The bottom bird was called off private property and while he was a strutter he was not the dominant bird. That bird would not come across the line.
The bottom bird would have eventually been a hoss his craw was full of corn, clover and fescue seed.
The primary tail feather tips of the bottom bird were also much lighter in color than the top bird.


----------



## herb mcclure (Jun 19, 2016)

*Mossyheads*

Thanks Timber, for your perspectives on the neck and feathers,of your two fine gobblers, and please accept my apologies about the foolishness. 
I fail to recognize what you were showing, and I bet last Winter when it was very cold that cohutta  gobbler had those feathers drawn-up to his ears, with no skin or waddles showing. I miss judged his beard's length too.

I would like to second, an earlier statement you made, about how white a remote high-mountain gobbler's head is, when strutting to a hen. It's like a bright white light shinning.

You and I both seem to agree that as a rule, remote high-mountain gobblers have dark tail feathers. 

Turkeys are really being changed fast, now-days; with all of this corn feeding on near-by private land.


----------



## herb mcclure (Sep 16, 2016)

*Mossyheads turkeys ?*

Rayanwhit, after reading and studying all 54 posts to date, and seeing over 4-thousand hits on your Mossyhead Turkey's thread; this Summer, I decided to offer my knowledge, to anyone interested in learning about the where-bouts of some turkeys that are shyer, spookier, and the most intolerable turkeys to man, I have ever hunted and that's from taking gobblers from15 different counties; here in Georgia. I also believe these are the purest genes left from the old original mountain turkeys. This has nothing to do with size or color and all the other things.

Not to throw any slander at turkeys where anyone else hunts. I never hunted the Cohutta Mountains in my 60 seasons of turkey hunting. However, in my opinion the remotest sections of the Cohutta's  have turkeys with these same original genes left in them too that I am telling about.

Before going any further, I do respect the opinions that everyone has about this subject. But since there are very few hunters left in today's world that have hunted pure original turkeys, I would like to make these comments. I personally talked with old hunters, who related to me, back in the 1950's that they had hunted turkeys back into the 1890's and had ever-since; whether a season or not a season. They said that..."They lived off the land, and there have always been wild  turkeys in this part of the North Georgia mountains", where I am going to tell about. They also said that the loss of the chestnut forest caused the turkey population to decline; more-so than the killing. 

Since turkey hunters of today, can not go back into history, when pure Eastern Wild Turkeys were still living, and learn for themselves, how different the old original wild turkeys were from turkeys today. And since I don't hunt to kill anymore; I don't mind sharing this knowledge about where these rare turkeys live. Believe me, these turkeys know how to take care of themselves. I am not advocating they are harder to call, than anyone Ilse's turkey's elsewhere. But if any-of-you ever pursue these turkeys, I believe you will say: that they are a different type turkey, that is very intolerable of man; and worthy of being called a true wild, wild turkey.

N-doubt someone will ask, why these turkeys and not turkeys somewhere else.I did not start studying about different kinds of turkeys resonantly. No, I started learning there were differences in wild turkeys over 40 years ago and have been studying them ever-since.  

My reasoning for why, these turkeys are of purer genes is two-forth. # 1, There have not been any newer WMA's near here; to spread new genes from other turkeys. # 2, It's a fact that there is less human encroachment around this area than elsewhere.  Now the place finally you have waited for.

Starting at the top of Amacola Falls in Dawson county, GA, and continuing North thru-Nimblewill Gap and across Springier Mountain and on into the West side of the Blue Ridge WMA. Then on to Hawk Mountain, where I will end this area there. All the creek drainage's off both sides of these mountain areas named, have these same turkeys; until near  private property. I would estimate the acreage of this area at over 25,000 acres.These turkeys have plenty of places to avoid you and get away from you.

These turkeys are still like the turkeys I first hunted sixty years ago, and are worthy of being called a wild turkey.
herb mcclure


----------



## M Sharpe (Sep 16, 2016)

Good story Mr. Herb!!


----------



## JMB (Sep 16, 2016)

I've killed birds in the mountains late season that were significantly less in weight than birds shot in the same region earlier in the season. A friend and I killed two the last week of the season a few years ago; both had 1 1/4" spurs, 9" beards, and had a combined weight of 27 lbs. I fall under the camp of a wild gobbler will deplete his stores of fat throughout the mating season and become scraggly, almost poor in health specimens then begin attempting to replenish their bodies following the mating ritual. 

Smaller birds with physical traits departing from the norm, to me, appear to be genetic aberrations or a product of their environment and nothing more. I've noticed a lot of the old writings contain more conjecture and lore devoid of scientific substantiation. 

The magic of all of this lies in the lack of the definitive  and the fact we do not have have full command of all that encompasses the sport and the turkey, historical or otherwise, allowing  the hunt to extend in scope far past the bird itself.


----------



## herb mcclure (Feb 22, 2017)

*Mossyheads turkeys ?*

Raynwhit, yep it is I, herb mcclure bringing back to your attention some informative knowledge of old original mountain turkeys, which I posted about here on this original thread of yours. Since that time, there has been a new book written about a man who was responsible for saving existing wildlife and reintroducing whitetail deer to the place where I wrote about. I have been there for the past 60 years; as a student of wildlife. 
May I suggest to you are anyone else to read Duncan Dobbie's book: Arthur Woody And The Barefoot Ranger.
This book reveals how ranger Woody protected the wildlife on 40,000 acres of road gated land. This was during the 1920,s, 30,s and 40,s. The 1950,s were also looked after by other wildlife men. 
All this hogwash of back and forth of how much they weighed and other characteristic is just folklore. The turkeys there today on the Blue Ridge WMA are descendants from original eastern wild turkeys.
herb mcclure


----------



## Gut_Pile (Feb 22, 2017)

Here are two older threads on the subject

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=750920&highlight=
http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=751758&highlight=

Both very interesting reads


----------



## ryanwhit (Feb 22, 2017)

Gut_Pile said:


> Here are two older threads on the subject
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=750920&highlight=
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=751758&highlight=
> ...



Was fun re-reading those.  I replied in both of those threads 4 years ago and my thoughts on the subject have not changed.


----------



## ryanwhit (Feb 22, 2017)

herb mcclure said:


> Raynwhit, yep it is I, herb mcclure bringing back to your attention some informative knowledge of old original mountain turkeys, which I posted about here on this original thread of yours. Since that time, there has been a new book written about a man who was responsible for saving existing wildlife and reintroducing whitetail deer to the place where I wrote about. I have been there for the past 60 years; as a student of wildlife.
> May I suggest to you are anyone else to read Duncan Dobbie's book: Arthur Woody And The Barefoot Ranger.
> This book reveals how ranger Woody protected the wildlife on 40,000 acres of road gated land. This was during the 1920,s, 30,s and 40,s. The 1950,s were also looked after by other wildlife men.
> All this hogwash of back and forth of how much they weighed and other characteristic is just folklore. The turkeys there today on the Blue Ridge WMA are descendants from original eastern wild turkeys.
> herb mcclure



Thanks for the recommendation Mr Herb, and I plan on reading Mr Dobbie's book.  Reading will have to wait though, as this is the time to prepare for turkey season travels.


----------



## blong (Feb 22, 2017)

So if domesticated stock didn't make it in the wild, aren't all wild turkeys descendants of wild turkey?


----------



## herb mcclure (Feb 23, 2017)

*Mossyheads turkeys ?*

Fellow turkey men, I stand corrected on my statement of turkey size as hogwash. However, I stick to my statement of what old turkey hunters told me about what they called native turkeys; having always lived on the Blue Ridge. Thanks, Gut Pile for your connect links on this thread, as I had never saw what you showed about gobbler size. 
herb mcclure


----------



## herb mcclure (Feb 25, 2017)

*Mossyheads turkeys ?*

The thread links provided by Gut Pile, showing the photos of small size gobblers with adult length beards; I was unaware of. Those photos and the thrashing out of this mossy head subject; which had happen long before raynwhit's thread was posted and I sucker myself into.

My comments about smaller gobblers in past times as being hogwash; I do stand corrected for that. I was thinking only of mountain gobblers, which in my earliest hunting years were in the 18 to 19lb. size. No old timers ever mention to me in my earliest days; about mountain gobblers being smaller; except maybe a young of the year being smaller than an adult. I am aware of it being said; swamp gobblers were smaller and longer leged than mountain gobblers by some writers who had hunted both of them. I would think all of the photos of all those small size gobblers shown; were killed somewhere besides the high mountains; were my hunting or telling about are done. 

In my book about Native Turkeys, I stated the original gobblers had small heads and small ball waddles; but did not say they were smaller in body size.

The late Arthur Truelove killed a gobbler back in the early 70's; somewhere in middle Georgia, which weight 14lbs. and supported a 16inch beard; the longest beard I ever saw. The gobbler also had toe nails; two inches long. Why all these abnormalities.This gobbler had a stiff leg that would not bend; thus he could not scratch and ware off the beard or toe nails; like a normal gobbler.


----------



## deerpoacher1970 (Feb 26, 2017)

Mr Herb I have killed one of your small mountain gobblers that you talk about,I ran into an old timer that day and he said it was like the ones he use to kill on jigger creek on Cohutta WMA he said when he first started hunting gobblers that was about the only place around that had any turkeys.


----------



## Timber1 (Feb 26, 2017)

You feed a mountain gobbler some corn he will get big. Probably make his carnucles larger and give him a nice light golden hue. Probably prefer running away than flying to the next ridge.


----------



## GLS (Feb 26, 2017)

Here’s a throwback of a bird killed about 70 miles north of the Florida line in the lowcountry in 2015.  The giveaway as to exactly where is on his right leg.  Note the dark, lightly barred primaries.  I stopped weighing birds 30 years ago.  From the turkey's point of view, it's bad enough to kill him, much less deprive him from gaining weight years later after shooting him.


----------



## Nicodemus (Feb 26, 2017)

GLS said:


> Here’s a throwback of a bird killed about 70 miles north of the Florida line in the lowcountry in 2015.  The giveaway as to exactly where is on his right leg.  Note the dark, lightly barred primaries.  I stopped weighing birds 30 years ago.  From the turkey's point of view, it's bad enough to kill him, much less deprive him from gaining weight years later after shooting him.




Gil, that looks like the turkeys we had between Glenwood and Lumber City in the river swamp over 50 years ago. Congratulations on a fine bird. Like you, what a turkey weighs is no concern to me.


----------



## sman (Feb 26, 2017)

blong said:


> So if domesticated stock didn't make it in the wild, aren't all wild turkeys descendants of wild turkey?



Logic is not welcome here. Please move on.


----------



## Timber1 (Feb 27, 2017)

GLS said:


> Here’s a throwback of a bird killed about 70 miles north of the Florida line in the lowcountry in 2015.  The giveaway as to exactly where is on his right leg.  Note the dark, lightly barred primaries.  I stopped weighing birds 30 years ago.  From the turkey's point of view, it's bad enough to kill him, much less deprive him from gaining weight years later after shooting him.



Oh so you killed him at the old rubber band plantation?


----------



## GLS (Feb 27, 2017)

Timber1 said:


> Oh so you killed him at the old rubber band plantation?


Now that's a stretch.


----------



## Timber1 (Feb 27, 2017)

GLS said:


> Here’s a throwback of a bird killed about 70 miles north of the Florida line in the lowcountry in 2015.  The giveaway as to exactly where is on his right leg.  Note the dark, lightly barred primaries.  I stopped weighing birds 30 years ago.  From the turkey's point of view, it's bad enough to kill him, much less deprive him from gaining weight years later after shooting him.



That is a good gobbler. He has some age on him.


----------

