# Christianity soon to be 2nd



## bullethead (Jun 1, 2017)

Islam on Track to Overtake Christianity as World’s No. 1 ReligionPew Research Center study projects Muslim population in America will double by 2050 
http://www.lifezette.com/polizette/islam-track-overtake-christianity-worlds-no-1-religion/


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## 660griz (Jun 1, 2017)

All we can hope for is that their religion evolves, like Christianity, to ignore the evil parts of their doctrine.


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## bullethead (Jun 1, 2017)

660griz said:


> All we can hope for is that their religion evolves, like Christianity, to ignore the evil parts of their doctrine.



Agreed

I know that religions come in and out of favor. I never thought I'd see Christianity be 2nd in my lifetime.  Can't say that I'm happy about it either.


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## Israel (Jun 1, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Agreed
> 
> I know that religions come in and out of favor. I never thought I'd see Christianity be 2nd in my lifetime.  Can't say that I'm happy about it either.


You ain't the only one.


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## bullethead (Jun 1, 2017)

Israel said:


> You ain't the only one.



Hard to argue against facts.
In my life I am surrounded by Christians. I have not found it to be a negative. 

I do think that the vast majority are just decent people that also happen to be Christian, if that makes sense.


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## red neck richie (Jun 1, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Hard to argue against facts.
> In my life I am surrounded by Christians. I have not found it to be a negative.
> 
> I do think that the vast majority are just decent people that also happen to be Christian, if that makes sense.



Its extremely troubling. Especially for future generations of Christians. As well as those who associate with them. Who knows what my great grandchildren and future generations in the United States will be subject to because of their believes. Traveling outside the US will become more dangerous as well. Grizz I don't think they will evolve. This has been going on for thousands of years. The muslim extremist attacks are happening more frequently and I don't see that trend slowing down. I just pray we can keep our loved ones safe no matter what they believe.


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## stringmusic (Jun 1, 2017)

The numbers are skewed. It's the fastest growing forced religion.


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## bullethead (Jun 2, 2017)

stringmusic said:


> The numbers are skewed. It's the fastest growing forced religion.



They are all forced one way or another.


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## 660griz (Jun 2, 2017)

bullethead said:


> They are all forced one way or another.



Yep. Christianity had the "convert or die" phase.


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## stringmusic (Jun 2, 2017)

bullethead said:


> They are all forced one way or another.


That is incorrect.


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## bullethead (Jun 2, 2017)

stringmusic said:


> That is incorrect.



History shows otherwise.
If you want to back up your statement with facts then by all means now is the time to do it.


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## stringmusic (Jun 2, 2017)

bullethead said:


> History shows otherwise.
> If you want to back up your statement with facts then by all means now is the time to do it.



What do you want me to back up with facts? That people all over the world are or would be killed if they disavowed Islam?

 Christianity is not being forced on anyone currently, it has happened in parts of the world in the past, for many reasons all of which have nothing to do with the Bible.

Your statement that all religions are forced is false.

Islam is currently, and as far as I know always has been, being forced on many people.


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## bullethead (Jun 2, 2017)

stringmusic said:


> What do you want me to back up with facts? That people all over the world are or would be killed if they disavowed Islam?
> 
> Christianity is not being forced on anyone currently, it has happened in parts of the world in the past, for many reasons all of which have nothing to do with the Bible.
> 
> ...



Oh
Your
God
Are you that sheltered or blind?

Just one example to back my claim up.

In 2009, the Assam Times reported that about fifteen armed Hmar militants, members of the Manmasi National Christian Army, tried to force Hindu residents of Bhuvan Pahar,Assam to convert to Christianity.

Now, you show me a religion that isnt somehow in some way forced on another.

String, I have always thought you are a cool guy, but you are delusional at times.


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## bullethead (Jun 2, 2017)

http://www.slate.com/articles/healt...d_on_public_school_students_in_louisiana.html


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## bullethead (Jun 2, 2017)

stringmusic said:


> What do you want me to back up with facts? That people all over the world are or would be killed if they disavowed Islam?
> 
> Christianity is not being forced on anyone currently, it has happened in parts of the world in the past, for many reasons all of which have nothing to do with the Bible.
> 
> ...



What you need to back up is you're claim that all religions are not forced in one way or another.

History is full of examples that say otherwise.


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## bullethead (Jun 2, 2017)

Research "forced conversion" string.


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## drippin' rock (Jun 2, 2017)

bullethead said:


> http://www.slate.com/articles/healt...d_on_public_school_students_in_louisiana.html



I've been around that "hard times are ahead" and  "we are going to have to make a stand" ideology my entire life.  It's just lame.  playing the 'persecuted' card got old and tired.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 3, 2017)

As the the scales tilt, will Islam evolve to fit the American dream or will the American dream evolve to fit Islam?


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## bullethead (Jun 3, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> As the the scales tilt, will Islam evolve to fit the American dream or will the American dream evolve to fit Islam?



Judging by what is going on in London, America is armed so Islam will have to evolve to fit America.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 4, 2017)

Hmmmm.  Islam vs. Secularism.  Wonder how that's gonna work out?  Never mind.  We have Europe as a living modern day model.  I feel better already.


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## across the river (Jun 4, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> As the the scales tilt, will Islam evolve to fit the American dream or will the American dream evolve to fit Islam?



It gets way worse before it gets better, although Europe will likely have it the worst. Eventually the greatest political leader in history with rise up from someone in Europe to bring "peace" until it is discovered that he is ultimately the antichrist.  Everything that is happening is predicted in the bible.  Read some books on Revelation, and it is all spelled out pretty clearly, just as it is occurring.


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## bullethead (Jun 4, 2017)

across the river said:


> It gets way worse before it gets better, although Europe will likely have it the worst. Eventually the greatest political leader in history with rise up from someone in Europe to bring "peace" until it is discovered that he is ultimately the antichrist.  Everything that is happening is predicted in the bible.  Read some books on Revelation, and it is all spelled out pretty clearly, just as it is occurring.


That has only been linked and referenced a thousand times to just about every leader that gets into office. Seems as though it never comes to fruition but it gives the biblical doomsday crowd something to continually hope for.


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## 660griz (Jun 5, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Hmmmm.  Islam vs. Secularism.  Wonder how that's gonna work out?  Never mind.  We have Europe as a living modern day model.  I feel better already.



You should. We did o.k. with tempering Christianity. Forcing the religion to evolve in order to survive in a modern society. No more witch hunts, stoning gays,  slavery, woman's rights, etc. And, in some cases, despite biblical messages, made it seem it was Christianity's idea. 
Still have work to do. We just got Sunday alcohol sales legalized in Georgia.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 5, 2017)

660griz said:


> You should. We did o.k. with tempering Christianity. Forcing the religion to evolve in order to survive in a modern society. No more witch hunts, stoning gays,  slavery, woman's rights, etc. And, in some cases, despite biblical messages, made it seem it was Christianity's idea.
> Still have work to do. We just got Sunday alcohol sales legalized in Georgia.



I honestly have a hard time taking anything so ignorant seriously.  You want to spend your life hating Christians and Christianity, go for it.  I won't stoop to engage you.  In fact I wish you the best.  You are a credit to your religion and you portray it well.


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## 660griz (Jun 5, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I honestly have a hard time taking anything so ignorant seriously.


 Honestly?


> You want to spend your life hating Christians and Christianity, go for it.


I don't hate Christians or Christianity. Most of my closest family and friends are Christians. 


> I won't stoop to engage you.


 You rarely do. Just drive by insults like...  





> You are a credit to your religion and you portray it well.


Ditto.


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## centerpin fan (Jun 5, 2017)

660griz said:


> We did o.k. with tempering Christianity. Forcing the religion to evolve in order to survive in a modern society. No more witch hunts, stoning gays,  slavery, woman's rights, etc.



IMO, Christianity didn't "temper" or "evolve".  It was simply pried loose from the grip of the state.  When church and state are united, expect trouble.


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## bullethead (Jun 5, 2017)

centerpin fan said:


> IMO, Christianity didn't "temper" or "evolve".  It was simply pried loose from the grip of the state.  When church and state are united, expect trouble.



Pried loose/kicked out.....


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## centerpin fan (Jun 5, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Pried loose/kicked out.....



Why would they be kicked out?  The state got a lot out of the relationship.


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## 660griz (Jun 5, 2017)

Without 'state' religion has no power. 

1848 - Elizabeth Cady Stanton rejects a Christianity that relegates women to second-class citizenry. She rewrites the Declaration of Independence in a document she calls the Declaration of Sentiments, changing "all men are created equal" to "all men and women are created equal." For Stanton, progress on women's rights requires revising Christianity, and she assembles an international committee to reinterpret the Bible's message.

The culmination of the temperance movement championed by many evangelical Protestant reformers, the 18th Amendment prohibits the sale, manufacture and transport of alcohol. An exception to the law is made for the sacramental use of wine. Supporters of Prohibition argue that the ills of drunkenness, particularly abusive family situations, require government intervention. Opponents believe that government should have no part in enforcing morality.


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## jmharris23 (Jun 5, 2017)

You can't force a real conversion to Christ, but certainly there have been times when people tried to force Christian ideals on a group at large. 

Heck even "blue laws" are a type of forced conversion. But this is not a true biblical representation of Christianity. 

There are enough representatives of biblical Christianity it seems that those who do not believe would at least be intellectually honest enough to admit that Christianity at large has been a good thing for this world rather than use what are mostly isolated instances as weapons against believers who are trying to live out a biblical lifestyle.


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## jmharris23 (Jun 5, 2017)

Personally, I would be most satisfied if I could simply tell people about my relationship with Christ and let the chips fall where they may. 

If you're not interested say so and leave it at that, rather than getting offended or angry at me attempt to share with you something that I truly believe in.


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## bullethead (Jun 5, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> You can't force a real conversion to Christ, but certainly there have been times when people tried to force Christian ideals on a group at large.
> 
> Heck even "blue laws" are a type of forced conversion. But this is not a true biblical representation of Christianity.
> 
> There are enough representatives of biblical Christianity it seems that those who do not believe would at least be intellectually honest enough to admit that Christianity at large has been a good thing for this world rather than use what are mostly isolated instances as weapons against believers who are trying to live out a biblical lifestyle.


Sure it is a good thing and has made and still makes a very positive impact worldwide.
But whike we are being honest, it has more to do with man-made ideals and rules than any active or involved god.
It is another way of life in with all the other ways of life.


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## bullethead (Jun 5, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> Personally, I would be most satisfied if I could simply tell people about my relationship with Christ and let the chips fall where they may.
> 
> If you're not interested say so and leave it at that, rather than getting offended or angry at me attempt to share with you something that I truly believe in.


I wholeheartedly belive that you believe that you have a relationship with Christ. But is it a one sided relationship? Is it any different than the relationships believers have worldwide with all the other gods?


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## jmharris23 (Jun 5, 2017)

bullethead said:


> I wholeheartedly belive that you believe that you have a relationship with Christ. But is it a one sided relationship? Is it any different than the relationships believers have worldwide with all the other gods?



I don't know? Maybe? From my viewpoint it doesn't appear one-sided, but maybe I've convinced myself of things that aren't true? Is that a possibility? Sure. But I don't believe that's what has happened and is happening.


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## jmharris23 (Jun 5, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Sure it is a good thing and has made and still makes a very positive impact worldwide.
> But whike we are being honest, it has more to do with man-made ideals and rules than any active or involved god.
> It is another way of life in with all the other ways of life.



At least that's what you believe that you know. Just like I believe that I know otherwise. 

The honest truth of the matter is either one religion is right, all religions are right or none of them are right. 

I am sure I'm right, you are sure you're right, the terrorist is sure he is right as well as the peaceful Muslim. 

The honest thing to say is that no one knows for sure if by "for sure" we mean a scientific observation. No one can prove a God or disprove one. We can only theorize based on a host of different issues.


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## bullethead (Jun 5, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> At least that's what you believe that you know. Just like I believe that I know otherwise.
> 
> The honest truth of the matter is either one religion is right, all religions are right or none of them are right.
> 
> ...


A god could PROVE a god.
It doesn't mean everybody would believe,  but goodness, wouldn't it prove a god exists if a an event witnessed worldwide by everyone took place? Something GODLIKE for instance!
Science couldn't discount it. People couldnt say they didnt witness it. A god could appear to everyone. Lets the cards fall where they may after that.

Why would a god want so many people killing other people in his name? Why wouldn't  a god give everyone the evidence needed so that nodody could deny its existence instead of guess and hope it exists??


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## red neck richie (Jun 5, 2017)

bullethead said:


> A god could PROVE a god.
> It doesn't mean everybody would believe,  but goodness, wouldn't it prove a god exists if a an event witnessed worldwide by everyone took place? Something GODLIKE for instance!
> Science couldn't discount it. People couldnt say they didnt witness it. A god could appear to everyone. Lets the cards fall where they may after that.
> 
> Why would a god want so many people killing other people in his name? Why wouldn't  a god give everyone the evidence needed so that nodody could deny its existence instead of guess and hope it exists??



No because it already happened. He did give the evidence. Because it didn't happen in your life time and you didn't witness it you don't believe. Look I get it your looking for an undeniable sign. But be careful what you wish for. It may not turn out how you think it should be done. Remember it will be his will and his plan not yours. It will also probably be subtle and not grandiose, as he wants an intimate relationship with you and doesn't really care about proof to others.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 5, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> No because it already happened. He did give the evidence. Because it didn't happen in your life time and you didn't witness it you don't believe. Look I get it your looking for an undeniable sign. But be careful what you wish for. It may not turn out how you think it should be done. Remember it will be his will and his plan not yours. It will also probably be subtle and not grandiose, as he wants an intimate relationship with you and doesn't really care about proof to others.





> It will also probably be subtle and not grandiose


Subtle and not grandiose?
Have you read the Bible?
Jesus supposedly did things that would be on par in todays world to him showing up at the Daytona 500 with 2 bags of pork rinds and turning them into a rack of ribs for every man, woman and child.


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## red neck richie (Jun 5, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Subtle and not grandiose?
> Have you read the Bible?
> Jesus supposedly did things that would be on par in todays world to him showing up at the Daytona 500 with 2 bags of pork rinds and turning them into a rack of ribs for every man, woman and child.



Yes but not on command. It didn't start of  as gentleman start your engines. My point is he doesn't always happen how you think it should. I use to believe in coincidence. I don't any longer.


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## red neck richie (Jun 5, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Subtle and not grandiose?
> Have you read the Bible?
> Jesus supposedly did things that would be on par in todays world to him showing up at the Daytona 500 with 2 bags of pork rinds and turning them into a rack of ribs for every man, woman and child.



Walt my point is the proof for you, Bullet and Ambush want may all be different. Have an open mind and if you really want a relationship never stop looking for one.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 5, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> Yes but not on command. It didn't start of  as gentleman start your engines. My point is he doesn't always happen how you think it should. I use to believe in coincidence. I don't ant longer.


The point is the Bible is full of very public "miracles".
Jesus apparently had a pretty busy touring schedule. No subtle whispers in anybody's ear, we are talking resurrection here. Public healings, feeding the masses....

Its not an unreasonable question to ask why not any more.
What you have been indoctrinated in is not the only possible answer. Its not even the most probable answer.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 5, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> Walt my point is the proof for you, Bullet and Ambush want may all be different. Have an open mind and if you really want a relationship never stop looking for one.


I guarantee you that a god could provide proof that Bullet, Ambush and I could all agree on.


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## red neck richie (Jun 5, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> The point is the Bible is full of very public "miracles".
> Jesus apparently had a pretty busy touring schedule. No subtle whispers in anybody's ear, we are talking resurrection here. Public healings, feeding the masses....
> 
> Its not an unreasonable question to ask why not any more.
> What you have been indoctrinated in is not the only possible answer. Its not even the most probable answer.



Probable to who? You? Seriously?


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## red neck richie (Jun 5, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> I guarantee you that a god could provide proof that Bullet, Ambush and I could all agree on.



I know he can too. My point is I have seen the proof I needed to witness. If you would like I will pm you some of my experiences. But what it took for me is not what it will take for you.


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## Josey (Jun 6, 2017)

This discussion has become (yet once again) silly and/or goofy.

I side with the ones that use linear logic.

I laugh at ones who use circular logic.

Oh, and try to use linear logic in the forums above, and you will be promptly tarred I feathered.   And run out of town on rails.

But use circlular logic here, and...well...if you have just half a brain, then you will see a little spot on your leg. 

Can you say, "Double standard"  or "hypocrisy"?


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## jmharris23 (Jun 6, 2017)

bullethead said:


> A god could PROVE a god.
> It doesn't mean everybody would believe,  but goodness, wouldn't it prove a god exists if a an event witnessed worldwide by everyone took place? Something GODLIKE for instance!
> Science couldn't discount it. People couldnt say they didnt witness it. A god could appear to everyone. Lets the cards fall where they may after that.
> 
> Why would a god want so many people killing other people in his name? Why wouldn't  a god give everyone the evidence needed so that nodody could deny its existence instead of guess and hope it exists??



I believe that has already happened but people didn't believe it then and they wouldn't believe it now. 

According to the Bible one day God will show up and no one will be able to deny it. Maybe, Maybe not. I believe He will.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 6, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> You can't force a real conversion to Christ, but certainly there have been times when people tried to force Christian ideals on a group at large.
> 
> Heck even "blue laws" are a type of forced conversion. But this is not a true biblical representation of Christianity.
> 
> There are enough representatives of biblical Christianity it seems that those who do not believe would at least be intellectually honest enough to admit that Christianity at large has been a good thing for this world rather than use what are mostly isolated instances as weapons against believers who are trying to live out a biblical lifestyle.





> those who do not believe would at least be intellectually honest enough to admit that Christianity at large has been a good thing for this world


Whether Christianity at large has been "a good thing for this world" kind of depends on where you sit doesn't it?
Lots and lots of people in this world, both historically and currently, who have not had positive interactions with Christianity.
I think a much more intellectually honest statement might be - 
"those who support Christianity believe Christianity at large has been a good thing for this world".


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## centerpin fan (Jun 6, 2017)

Josey said:


> Oh, and try to use linear logic in the forums above, and you will be promptly tarred I feathered.   And run out of town on rails.



How would you know?  You've never posted up above.


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## jmharris23 (Jun 6, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Whether Christianity at large has been "a good thing for this world" kind of depends on where you sit doesn't it?
> Lots and lots of people in this world, both historically and currently, who have not had positive interactions with Christianity.
> I think a much more intellectually honest statement might be -
> "those who support Christianity believe Christianity at large has been a good thing for this world".



You tell me? You don't support it, so has it been a bad thing for the world overall? 

I am aware that there have been historical instances of bad behavior by Christians but that doesnt mean it's been a bad thing overall. 

From where I sit, saying that is like saying every bad thing an atheist/agnostic does also applies to WaltL1 and all of his good natured, law abiding, like minded friends.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 6, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> You tell me? You don't support it, so has it been a bad thing for the world overall?
> 
> I am aware that there have been historical instances of bad behavior by Christians but that doesnt mean it's been a bad thing overall.
> 
> From where I sit, saying that is like saying every bad thing an atheist/agnostic does also applies to Walt1 and all of his good natured, law abiding, like minded friends.


So I'm not trying to pick your words apart but for the sake of understanding where each other is come from -


> You tell me? You don't support it,


I can think of at least as many or more examples of showing my support as I can for not showing my support of it.
Do I believe it? No. Do I support your belief in it? Yes. in a number of ways.


> so has it been a bad thing for the world overall?


I cant answer that. Like I said it depends on where you sit in the world. It depends on WHEN you sat in the world.
Christianity didn't necessarily come to power through good fellowship and fish fries after church. Nor has Christianity kept their beliefs and "rules" to themselves.
And of course it begs the question "so has religion (not just Christianity) been a bad thing for the world over all?".  


> From where I sit, saying that is like saying every bad thing an atheist/agnostic does also applies to Walt1 and all of his good natured, law abiding, like minded friends.


Obviously there are "good" and "bad" people of every belief, non belief, type, culture, race, creed...........
But you aren't asking about individuals. You are asking about Christianity overall. Individuals are just one ingredient of Christianity.


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## bullethead (Jun 6, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> No because it already happened. He did give the evidence. Because it didn't happen in your life time and you didn't witness it you don't believe. Look I get it your looking for an undeniable sign. But be careful what you wish for. It may not turn out how you think it should be done. Remember it will be his will and his plan not yours. It will also probably be subtle and not grandiose, as he wants an intimate relationship with you and doesn't really care about proof to others.


I just do not believe you that it happened already, that it is his will,  that it had a plan (that goes against free will) and I absolutely do not believe that you know what it wants or how it thinks. You just think you do because you are a fan and think that because you are a fan that you are special.

Forgive me for not taking any of your advice above as being accurate or truthful.


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## bullethead (Jun 6, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> So I'm not trying to pick your words apart but for the sake of understanding where each other is come from -
> 
> I can think of at least as many or more examples of showing my support as I can for not showing my support of it.
> Do I believe it? No. Do I support your belief in it? Yes. in a number of ways.
> ...



And...Jesus was a Jew. He didn't set out to start a new religion. He was fine with the Torah.

People turned a man into a new god and worshiped him, made up their own rules., made their own religion.

If ya want to be Christ-like, follow the Torah, he did.

Christianity is as good or as bad as the people in it. Same as any other religion because there are no gods that want to take the time every couple of years to grace us with their presence and let us know if we are on the right track.
For 5000 years God  was everywhere. As technology grew, god and his miracles shrank.


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## jmharris23 (Jun 6, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> So I'm not trying to pick your words apart but for the sake of understanding where each other is come from -
> 
> I can think of at least as many or more examples of showing my support as I can for not showing my support of it.
> Do I believe it? No. Do I support your belief in it? Yes. in a number of ways.
> ...




Picking words apart is a necessary part of these discussions, I have no issue with it. 

We will have to agree to disagree on your "support." 

I would contend that biblical Christianity has been good for anyone who has encountered it. Perversions of biblical Christianity are not, but of course they aren't Christian either, so then that doesn't mean Christianity was bad, just those who perverted it.


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## StriperAddict (Jun 6, 2017)

*My 2 denari*



bullethead said:


> If ya want to be Christ-like, follow the Torah, he did.



Yes, and perfectly. Something you or I can never do. That's the problem. Start there


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## bullethead (Jun 6, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> Picking words apart is a necessary part of these discussions, I have no issue with it.
> 
> We will have to agree to disagree on your "support."
> 
> I would contend that biblical Christianity has been good for anyone who has encountered it. Perversions of biblical Christianity are not, but of course they aren't Christian either, so then that doesn't mean Christianity was bad, just those who perverted it.


When no god is available the people look to clergy, priests, reverends for guidance. They look to those religious leaders because somehow those religious leaders are closer to god or have a hotline to him. Those same leaders instructed some of  the worst perversions to be carried out because God Commands It.
Did he?
If we cant believe the clergy who say god speaks to them, why should we believe abyone else whi claims the same thing??


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## jmharris23 (Jun 6, 2017)

bullethead said:


> And...Jesus was a Jew. He didn't set out to start a new religion. He was fine with the Torah.
> 
> Yes he was and still is, except for the parts he fulfilled and are no longer needed.
> 
> ...




Responded in the quote


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## bullethead (Jun 6, 2017)

StriperAddict said:


> Yes, and perfectly. Something you or I can never do. That's the problem. Start there



Make up a religion that more suits MY needs or jump on the bandwagon of an existing religion and change it to suit MY needs.

Those seem to be popular


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## bullethead (Jun 6, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> Responded in the quote



Is that what he wanted? Did Jesus tell anyone to do that? Did the God of the Torah intend that to happen? 

Or

Did people,  who were and are always looking for an upgrade, take it upon themselves to do it?

I am convinced Christianity is more Paul's version of religion than Jesus'.


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## jmharris23 (Jun 6, 2017)

bullethead said:


> When no god is available the people look to clergy, priests, reverends for guidance. They look to those religious leaders because somehow those religious leaders are closer to god or have a hotline to him. Those same leaders instructed some of  the worst perversions to be carried out because God Commands It.
> Did he?
> If we cant believe the clergy who say god speaks to them, why should we believe abyone else whi claims the same thing??





As a "religious leader" I always encourage people not to think I have a hotline to God in any way. 

I do read my bible and believe it to be true.


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## jmharris23 (Jun 6, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Is that what he wanted? Did Jesus tell anyone to do that? Did the God of the Torah intend that to happen?
> 
> Or
> 
> Did people,  who were and are always looking for an upgrade, take it upon themselves to do it?



Well he certainly said "follow me" and "obey my commandments." Alot.


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## bullethead (Jun 6, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> Well he certainly said "follow me" and "obey my commandments." Alot.



I added to my previous reply after you quoted it


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## bullethead (Jun 6, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> As a "religious leader" I always encourage people not to think I have a hotline to God in any way.
> 
> I do read my bible and believe it to be true.



Ok, so why?

Doesn't god talk to you?


----------



## jmharris23 (Jun 6, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Ok, so why?
> 
> Doesn't god talk to you?



Absolutely... on every page of Scripture.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 6, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> Well he certainly said "follow me" and "obey my commandments." Alot.



He was a leader of a movement within Judiasm, not a leader to reject Judiasm and go away from it.


----------



## jmharris23 (Jun 6, 2017)

bullethead said:


> I added to my previous reply after you quoted it



Your addition doesn't address Jesus's commands to follow him and obey his commandments. But certainly Paul influenced Christianity in a major way, but of course if the bible is true, Christ influenced Paul in a major way. 

If the bible isn't true, then you're dead right and I'm wasting my time


----------



## bullethead (Jun 6, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> Absolutely... on every page of Scripture.



And your interpretation is your guide, correct?


----------



## jmharris23 (Jun 6, 2017)

bullethead said:


> He was a leader of a movement within Judiasm, not a leader to reject Judiasm and go away from it.



He was also very clear that the Jewish religious establishment were missing the big picture and so in some ways yes, he did encourage his followers to go away from it. 

You have read the NT haven't you?


----------



## jmharris23 (Jun 6, 2017)

bullethead said:


> And your interpretation is your guide, correct?



Not really.....I'm more of a the "let Scripture interpret Scripture and I weigh that against 2000 years of Church history and what the majority of early church leaders and theologians believed regarding particular gray areas" kind of guy.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 6, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> Your addition doesn't address Jesus's commands to follow him and obey his commandments. But certainly Paul influenced Christianity in a major way, but of course if the bible is true, Christ influenced Paul in a major way.
> 
> If the bible isn't true, then you're dead right and I'm wasting my time


I do believe that my addition does address it because Jesus's commands seem to originate about the time that non Jews were starting or wanting to become Christians.
His commands got written down long after Jesus was gone by men who were not there with Jesus.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 6, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> He was also very clear that the Jewish religious establishment were missing the big picture and so in some ways yes, he did encourage his followers to go away from it.
> 
> You have read the NT haven't you?



Well yes I have, but I do not think that those are the words of Jesus. Those are the words of people trying to start a new religion that worships Jesus.
Not the religion that Jesus followed.


----------



## jmharris23 (Jun 6, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Well yes I have, but I do not think that those are the words of Jesus. Those are the words of people trying to start a new religion that worships Jesus.
> Not the religion that Jesus followed.



Herein lies the problem ...... if they're not the words of Jesus none of this matters. 

You believe they aren't, I believe they are. 

But it's fun to talk about anyway.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 6, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> He was also very clear that the Jewish religious establishment were missing the big picture and so in some ways yes, he did encourage his followers to go away from it.
> 
> You have read the NT haven't you?



Wasn't there a few denominations within Judiasm already doing the same thing?

I read history too.


----------



## jmharris23 (Jun 6, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Wasn't there a few denominations within Judiasm already doing the same thing?
> 
> I read history too.




Well according to you Jesus either didnt exist or if he did we have no idea what he said, so I'm kind of lost as to where to go next. 

That said, like I wrote above, I always enjoy bantering back and forth with you.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 6, 2017)

This, I think, is accurate.



> Historians now say is that Jesus was likely an apocalyptic teacher. According to Helen K. Bond, author of “The Historical Jesus: A Guide for the Perplexed,” Jesus adopted the teachings of his mentor, John the Baptist, a fiery apocalyptic prophet. When Jesus died, Bond says, some of his followers kept alive his belief in the coming end of the world and need for all Jews to repent. That was the start of the Jewish Jesus movement. But after the movement began assimilating non-Jews, the Jewishness of Jesus faded from memory and the Jesus of faith was born.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 6, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> Well according to you Jesus either didnt exist or if he did we have no idea what he said, so I'm kind of lost as to where to go next.
> 
> That said, like I wrote above, I always enjoy bantering back and forth with you.



I think he did exist and I also think that there is no accurate records of what Jesus actually said.
I believe that more likely than not  his words and works were embellished long after his death along with additional miracles in order to sway new followers.


----------



## jmharris23 (Jun 6, 2017)

This,I think, is accurate 





> “The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! This is he of whom I said, 'After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me.' I myself did not know him, but for this purpose I came baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to Israel." And John bore witness: "I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.' And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God."”
> CensoredCensoredJohn‬ Censored1:29-34‬ CensoredESV


----------



## bullethead (Jun 6, 2017)

And yet history says Jesus and John the Baptist were related. Cousins I think.
And John didn't know him?
Something doesn't add up.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 6, 2017)

And in Luke 7:20, John the Baptist sends the disciples to go and ask Jesus if he is the Messiah.

In one verse he knows, the next verse he doesn't. 

That type of NT writings is why I am so suspect of its accuracy.


----------



## jmharris23 (Jun 6, 2017)

bullethead said:


> And in Luke 7:20, John the Baptist sends the disciples to go and ask Jesus if he is the Messiah.
> 
> In one verse he knows, the next verse he doesn't.
> 
> That type of NT writings is why I am so suspect of its accuracy.



He did not know him as the Messiah yet, why would have? He had not been revealed as the Messiah yet.That lines up with the rest of Scripture



bullethead said:


> And yet history says Jesus and John the Baptist were related. Cousins I think.
> And John didn't know him?
> Something doesn't add up.




He knew who he was as a person. Because of what was taking place in John's own life he doubted that Jesus was who he said he was. This also lines up with Scripture and with our own personal experiences.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 6, 2017)

Didn't JohnTB baptize Jesus before John was in prison?


----------



## StriperAddict (Jun 6, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Make up a religion that more suits MY needs or jump on the bandwagon of an existing religion and change it to suit MY needs.
> 
> Those seem to be popular



My point was to say that a relationship to rules and law has no benefit or comfort for that matter.  The bible points to a free gift, a relationship, not based on our lousy performance but on Christ's passion for any and all who would call on Him and come.  To these He gave all for the relationship door to finally swing wide open.  This is something that law, rules and religion will never do.  

I'll shoot this along and be back later, as you and jmharris have an interesting discussion going on.  Thanks for the input(s), I hope my ramblings here made some sense to this part of the subject.

-Walter


----------



## bullethead (Jun 6, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> He did not know him as the Messiah yet, why would have? He had not been revealed as the Messiah yet.That lines up with the rest of Scripture
> 
> 
> 
> ...



John baptized Jesus and knew from the Spirit that descended from Heaven that Jesus was the Messiah. 

Later, while in prison,  John questioned whether or not Jesus was the Messiah.

Then John was beheaded soon after.


----------



## jmharris23 (Jun 6, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Didn't JohnTB baptize Jesus before John was in prison?



Yes and he was convinced in that moment that Jesus was the Christ....then he went to prison and his life went south and he knew he was about to die and he felt like Jesus had let him down so he sent his disciples to ask Jesus if he really was the Messiah. 

Many believers have experienced the same feelings. I believe, yet I doubt, especially when life gets hard. 

Jesus response to John the Baptists doubt is worth noting as he sends John's disciples back to John with this message. 

"The blind can see, the deaf can hear, the lame can walk, and the dead are being raised and blessed is the man that does not stumble over me." This exchange can be found in Matthew 11.

My answer obviously assumes the Scriptures are true


----------



## bullethead (Jun 6, 2017)

I find it odd that a man like JTB could witness the Spirit from Heaven come down and then later question it regardless of how hard life gets later.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 6, 2017)

It seems like the supernatural was so common back then that the everyday people were unsure of its validity most times.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 6, 2017)

I think that is so because of the writings that the supernatural occurred in much later rather than when these people were actually alive.


----------



## jmharris23 (Jun 6, 2017)

bullethead said:


> I find it odd that a man like JTB could witness the Spirit from Heaven come down and then later question it regardless of how hard life gets later.



Yeah, I don't. Life can be hard. Bad stuff can/will happen. It rattles us. He was rattled. He struggled with his faith. Maybe he wondered if he actually saw and heard what he thought he did? Easy enough for me to see but again I'm looking through a different lens and I'm not skeptical by nature.


----------



## jmharris23 (Jun 6, 2017)

I also don't know that the supernatural was all that common. I think it appears that way in Scripture because Scripture is telling a supernatural story. The Jesus of Scripture performed miracles for sure, but it doesn't appear that they were a  part of his nor any else's daily routine.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 6, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> Yeah, I don't. Life can be hard. Bad stuff can/will happen. It rattles us. He was rattled. He struggled with his faith. Maybe he wondered if he actually saw and heard what he thought he did? Easy enough for me to see but again I'm looking through a different lens and I'm not skeptical by nature.


So he witnessed the Spirit of God come to earth and yet he doubted it within 2 years later but writers that wrote the stories got them all accurate 40-70years later?


----------



## bullethead (Jun 6, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> I also don't know that the supernatural was all that common. I think it appears that way in Scripture because Scripture is telling a supernatural story. The Jesus of Scripture performed miracles for sure, but it doesn't appear that they were a  part of his nor any else's daily routine.


All 66 books contain supernatural events witnessed by thousands at times and supernatural events that affected hundreds of thousands directly, and yet NOBODY outside of scripture wrote about it.

The NT alone is full of events that were supposedly witnessed by hundreds and by thousands. No mention of it anywhere else. And why I would think that if it was so uncommon, it would be recorded by people of all faiths, creeds, religions, cultures and citizens.


----------



## jmharris23 (Jun 6, 2017)

bullethead said:


> So he witnessed the Spirit of God come to earth and yet he doubted it within 2 years later but writers that wrote the stories got them all accurate 40-70years later?



I'm not sure how his momentary feelings of doubt and the writers are connected?


----------



## bullethead (Jun 6, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> I'm not sure how his momentary feelings of doubt and the writers are connected?



In a different way, that is my point exactly.


----------



## jmharris23 (Jun 6, 2017)

bullethead said:


> All 66 books contain supernatural events witnessed by thousands at times and supernatural events that affected hundreds of thousands directly, and yet NOBODY outside of scripture wrote about it.
> 
> The NT alone is full of events that were supposedly witnessed by hundreds and by thousands. No mention of it anywhere else. And why I would think that if it was so uncommon, it would be recorded by people of all faiths, creeds, religions, cultures and citizens.



Rather than copy and paste I'll provide this link...while I am sure it can be picked apart as well anything, I thought it made some valid points 

http://strangenotions.com/an-atheist-historian-examines-the-evidence-for-jesus-part-1-of-2/


----------



## jmharris23 (Jun 6, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> Rather than copy and paste I'll provide this link...while I am sure it can be picked apart as well anything, I thought it made some valid points
> 
> http://strangenotions.com/an-atheist-historian-examines-the-evidence-for-jesus-part-1-of-2/



Here is part 2 

http://strangenotions.com/an-atheist-historian-examines-the-evidence-for-jesus-part-2-of-2/


----------



## bullethead (Jun 6, 2017)

The comment sections after the articles do a good job of refuting the points made in the articles, along with the many discussions in here that have done the same thing.


----------



## jmharris23 (Jun 6, 2017)

bullethead said:


> The comment sections after the articles do a good job of refuting the points made in the articles, along with the many discussions in here that have done the same thing.



See...I told you it was easy to pick apart


The honest answer to your question above is I don't know. But I do know that not having much or any information other than a few sources and that those sources were recorded years after the actual event was not unusual for events that took place in the ancient world.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 6, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> See...I told you it was easy to pick apart
> 
> 
> The honest answer to your question above is I don't know. But I do know that not having much or any information other than a few sources and that those sources were recorded years after the actual event was not unusual for events that took place in the ancient world.


I couldn't agree more about how events were recorded and yet there are many more sources that  include detailed events about many things that took place in the ancient world that are backed up by history than THE LIFE, ACTIONS, MIRACLES and DEATH  of The SON OF GOD!!

Yes all caps to highlight what should be the difference of all the other things that took place and were recorded!
 Think about that for a minute. This wasnt a census, a battle, a fight in a Temple, or anything else that took place and was recorded on Earth, ever.
This is about the Son of God. And there are no mentions of it. Apologists constantly try to blend it in with the usual mundane every day recordings of life 2000 years ago.
Again, it is about THE, SON,OF, GOD!!!
Just think about that.

The bible is FULL of those monumental events that no one else noticed even when it supposedly happened to them!


----------



## WaltL1 (Jun 6, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> Picking words apart is a necessary part of these discussions, I have no issue with it.
> 
> We will have to agree to disagree on your "support."
> 
> I would contend that biblical Christianity has been good for anyone who has encountered it. Perversions of biblical Christianity are not, but of course they aren't Christian either, so then that doesn't mean Christianity was bad, just those who perverted it.





> We will have to agree to disagree on your "support."


Sounds like we would first need to agree on the definition of "support". 

You take a very convenient position. If it was good it was Christianity. If it was bad it was some perversion of Christianity.


> I would contend that biblical Christianity has been good for anyone who has encountered it.


I would contend you are ignoring the less flowery aspects of Christianity's history and teachings..


----------



## StriperAddict (Jun 6, 2017)

bullethead said:


> So he witnessed the Spirit of God come to earth and yet he doubted it within 2 years later but writers that wrote the stories got them all accurate 40-70years later?



I guess I can identify with John the Baptist, I've had my times of doubt, and others close to me have too.  

Years ago my wife owned a Volkswagen beetle that was hit by a larger car - pushing hers right thru a store's plate glass window.  During the crash but before hitting the store she felt hands lifting her up and over the gear shift handle and into the passenger side seat. Time seemed to stand still during that, she later told me.  But in the next moment the drivers side was destroyed, and yet my wife survived.  I get goose bumps and give thanks every time we talk or share the story.

What this has to do with John and our doubts is amusing but it might make a point.  

Even after her miraculous deliverance from death, the first thing on her mind was to have a word or two with the driver of the other car!  Yes, I married a feisty Italian!

So with time, the entire event and the crash scene began to fold out.  It wasn't until a month later that her cousin asked her "about that wreck near her home" and the condition of the car, not knowing it was hers. "The driver could not have survived that crash" he said, and after both of them talked over what happened did my wife really grasp that incredible moment of Providence.

The writers of the JTB story of his doubt did us a service in seeing that part of life may well be with unbelief, question after question, and sometimes just not getting it.  
It was even the apostle Paul who said he was perplexed, "God, what are you doing??!!"

And I am totally convinced in the Light that comes at the ends of those tunnels.  God delights in revealing His love, His very Person.

We might need to halt our anger OR our doubt for a moment and see the bigger picture.  I think John did, although I wasn't 'there'.  

I know my wife did


----------



## jmharris23 (Jun 6, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Sounds like we would first need to agree on the definition of "support".
> 
> You take a very convenient position. If it was good it was Christianity. If it was bad it was some perversion of Christianity.
> 
> I would contend you are ignoring the less flowery aspects of Christianity's history and teachings..



It's not convenient and I'm not ignoring it. There have been awful things done in the name of religion including Christianity and it's shameful.  I still contend that those atrocities were done based on taking something from the Bible out of its intended context and meaning by people who were nominal Christians.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 6, 2017)

StriperAddict said:


> I guess I can identify with John the Baptist, I've had my times of doubt, and others close to me have too.
> 
> Years ago my wife owned a Volkswagen beetle that was hit by a larger car - pushing hers right thru a store's plate glass window.  During the crash but before hitting the store she felt hands lifting her up and over the gear shift handle and into the passenger side seat. Time seemed to stand still during that, she later told me.  But in the next moment the drivers side was destroyed, and yet my wife survived.  I get goose bumps and give thanks every time we talk or share the story.
> 
> ...


I cannot tell you how happy I am to hear that your wife was not only uninjured but able to ream the other driver out.

Who moves drivers in accidents that are of other religions out of harms way?


JTB saw the Spirit of the Lord God come down from the Heavens and less than 2 years later he was doubting it. Think about that. 

Real?
Fake?

Some truth with added embellishments for effect?

He probably baptized Jesus, believed what Jesus was throwing down and then questioned Jesus's diviness later.

That sounds plausible. 

Add in he witnessed the spirit of god come down from Heaven...... and still question the  messiah....sounds embellished.


----------



## jmharris23 (Jun 6, 2017)

bullethead said:


> I couldn't agree more about how events were recorded and yet there are many more sources that  include detailed events about many things that took place in the ancient world that are backed up by history than THE LIFE, ACTIONS, MIRACLES and DEATH  of The SON OF GOD!!
> 
> Yes all caps to highlight what should be the difference of all the other things that took place and were recorded!
> Think about that for a minute. This wasnt a census, a battle, a fight in a Temple, or anything else that took place and was recorded on Earth, ever.
> ...



Maybe this is why? 

“For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.”
CensoredCensored1 Corinthiansâ€¬ Censored1:21-25â€¬ CensoredESV


----------



## bullethead (Jun 6, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> Maybe this is why?
> 
> “For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.”
> CensoredCensored1 Corinthiansâ€¬ Censored1:21-25â€¬ CensoredESV


Sure


----------



## jmharris23 (Jun 6, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Sure



Ha ha! I thought you'd really like that


----------



## bullethead (Jun 6, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> Ha ha! I thought you'd really like that



Like I said earlier,  Paul set the rules and made the excuses.


----------



## jmharris23 (Jun 7, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Like I said earlier,  Paul set the rules and made the excuses.



Do you believe that Paul was imprisoned and ultimately beheaded for his work at spreading this make believe faith?


----------



## 660griz (Jun 7, 2017)

StriperAddict said:


> During the crash but before hitting the store she felt hands lifting her up and over the gear shift handle and into the passenger side seat.


 When the bible was written, it took a lot less demonstration of physics to WOW the population. 


> Time seemed to stand still during that, she later told me.


 Quite common, and explained. "Time warping seems to be a trick played by one's memory. When a person is scared, a brain area called the amygdala becomes more active, laying down an extra set of memories that go along with those normally taken care of by other parts of the brain. 

"In this way, frightening events are associated with richer and denser memories," Eagleman explained. "And the more memory you have of an event, the longer you believe it took."

  I can give you example upon example of God fearing folks that didn't get 'lucky'. I can also show you little babies and children that certainly wish God would ease their suffering.

This is what I truly don't understand about religious folks. The life after death is supposed to be soooo much better than this one yet, no one wants to go there. 

I have asked questions repeatedly trying to figure out this phenomenon. I ask why folks cry at funerals when their love ones are in a better place and you will see them again...forever. 
I asked why if a religious person is saved from certain death is it a miracle instead of punishment. 

Personally, since suicide has been ruled a sin by the church, if I REALLY believed in a better life after death, I would be a king crab fisherman, or trying to convert Muslims in Iran. Worse case scenario, you are in heaven. 
Seems like a no brainer. Something just doesn't add up.


----------



## jmharris23 (Jun 7, 2017)

660griz said:


> This is what I truly don't understand about religious folks. The life after death is supposed to be soooo much better than this one yet, no one wants to go there.
> 
> I have asked questions repeatedly trying to figure out this phenomenon. I ask why folks cry at funerals when their love ones are in a better place and you will see them again...forever.
> I asked why if a religious person is saved from certain death is it a miracle instead of punishment.
> ...





Spot on except except the suicide part, it's never mentioned in the bible as a sin, and although it certainly would be a sin in the vein of "playing God" it is no greater sin than anything else, biblically speaking. 

All that said, you're exactly right, as a believer I've always wondered why other believers are so afraid to die. 

As far as crying at funerals, I guess it depends on why you're crying. I cried at my grandfather's because I would never see him here again, I can't ask him about my garden, or hunting, or fishing, or my kids. 

I wasn't crying for him, I was crying for me.


----------



## centerpin fan (Jun 7, 2017)

660griz said:


> When the bible was written, it took a lot less demonstration of physics to WOW the population.


----------



## centerpin fan (Jun 7, 2017)

660griz said:


> This is what I truly don't understand about religious folks. The life after death is supposed to be soooo much better than this one yet, no one wants to go there.


----------



## 660griz (Jun 7, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> Spot on except except the suicide part, it's never mentioned in the bible as a sin,


 Correct. There was a rash of Christian suicides awhile back. The 'church' declared it a sin to stop them. 


> I cried at my grandfather's because I would never see him here again


Wait, you going to a different place after you die?


----------



## bullethead (Jun 7, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> Do you believe that Paul was imprisoned and ultimately beheaded for his work at spreading this make believe faith?



I think he believed it and added to it. He never met Jesus. He didn't know Jesus. He didn't witness Jesus from afar.
There are lots of people who ultimately die for lies, it's  just they do not know they are lies.
Would you go to prison and die for Jesus?
Or would you renounce him?

Paul died for his beliefs even if he created the religion.


----------



## jmharris23 (Jun 7, 2017)

660griz said:


> Correct. There was a rash of Christian suicides awhile back. The 'church' declared it a sin to stop them.
> 
> Wait, you going to a different place after you die?



I edited it to be clearer


----------



## StriperAddict (Jun 10, 2017)

bullethead said:


> I cannot tell you how happy I am to hear that your wife was not only uninjured but able to ream the other driver out.
> 
> Who moves drivers in accidents that are of other religions out of harms way?
> 
> ...



The point I tried to make is that it is "OK" in the eyes of the Lord to lose faith, belief, etc., and that this can happen at any time by tough circumstances.  There is an incredible verse that says "when we are faithless, He (Christ) remains faithful, because He cannot deny Himself".   What this has meant to me is that in those times I have "felt distant", God makes it clear that He is not.  The gospel itself reinforces this as it puts the life of Christ in Human hearts.  

One more example is in the Old Testament (1 Kings Ch 19) where in one event Elijah the prophet defeats all the Prophets of Baal (one of those false gods) in an incredible miracle of Gods strength ---  and then in the next chapter a single threat from one messenger has Elijah fearing and running for his life.  Yet soon after this low period in his life Elijah would assist the appointing of EliSha as a prophet, who later took EliJah's place in that office.  

Maybe it's not so much that any one believer has trials of doubt and fear in the faith, but that in these experiences God Himself doesn't budge in His love for them.  This, I believe, is a significant part of the picture.  

Anyway, thanks for the kind words about my wife and the crash.  I've no doubt that her 'colorful' exchange with that other driver was one for the record books - LOL!  And yes, her Lord was with her the whole time!


----------



## bullethead (Jun 10, 2017)

StriperAddict said:


> The point I tried to make is that it is "OK" in the eyes of the Lord to lose faith, belief, etc., and that this can happen at any time by tough circumstances.  There is an incredible verse that says "when we are faithless, He (Christ) remains faithful, because He cannot deny Himself".   What this has meant to me is that in those times I have "felt distant", God makes it clear that He is not.  The gospel itself reinforces this as it puts the life of Christ in Human hearts.
> 
> One more example is in the Old Testament (1 Kings Ch 19) where in one event Elijah the prophet defeats all the Prophets of Baal (one of those false gods) in an incredible miracle of Gods strength ---  and then in the next chapter a single threat from one messenger has Elijah fearing and running for his life.  Yet soon after this low period in his life Elijah would assist the appointing of EliSha as a prophet, who later took EliJah's place in that office.
> 
> ...



How does anyone know what is "ok" in the eyes of a god? I'd bet that we use our likes and dislikes as a guide on what some unknowable spirit also likes and dislikes.

If a god actually was capable of writing a bible then the contents might be worth more than thr paper it is printed on.

Was your wife buckled in? Her seat belt on?


----------



## StriperAddict (Jun 11, 2017)

bullethead said:


> How does anyone know what is "ok" in the eyes of a god? I'd bet that we use our likes and dislikes as a guide on what some unknowable spirit also likes and dislikes.
> 
> If a god actually was capable of writing a bible then the contents might be worth more than thr paper it is printed on.
> 
> Was your wife buckled in? Her seat belt on?



I'd have to ask, don't remember about the seat belts.  But the side swipe happened on the drivers side and the law of inertia suggests she couldn't get over to the passenger side in time and in her own strength.  

About what pleases God, this might help...

--------------------------------

We do some silly things to try to impress God

From Steve McVey, subject: Legalism
August 8, 2016


----------



## bullethead (Jun 11, 2017)

StriperAddict said:


> I'd have to ask, don't remember about the seat belts.  But the side swipe happened on the drivers side and the law of inertia suggests she couldn't get over to the passenger side in time and in her own strength.
> 
> About what pleases God, this might help...
> 
> ...



"An object at rest stays at rest and an object in motion stays in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force."

A 4000lb automobile hitting the drivers side would be an unbalanced force that acted upon her inertia.

I had a good friend that was in a horrific car crash.
He was driving a Chevy Beretta and racing other buddies home from a night of skiing. He lost control on ice and hit a large oak tree at a high rate of speed. My friends saw the carnage in their rearview mirror and turned around to go back.
They didnt want to look but knew they had to.
The beretta was literally squashed like an accordian from an angle from the drivers headlight to the drivers seat with the oak tree now 
Smack in the middle of the engine compartment and the engine sat in the passenger compartment.
There was no sign of my buddy. They couldnt find him. Not even a piece of him.
As they are in a frantic search for whatever sections of the car they could get to my buddy asks them what they are doing.
He was sitting 20yards behind the point of impact virtually un touched.

It was a miracle.

In actuality he wasn't wearing his seat belt.  The impact snapped his drivers seat and the force blew him through the glass hatch and out the back of the vehicle. He was rocketed out and laid in the yard behind them. With it being late at night no one saw him there until he sat up and spoke to them.

I can see where a point will be made that he had someone looking out for him or that god placed him out of harms way.  But, in reality, the car acted as if it should have by crumpling. Because his speed and mass was excessive that immovable tree ended up where no engineer could possibly account for.  The seat "worked" as designed and what honestly saved him was not wearing his seat belt as he would have at the very least lost his legs being trapped in the drivers area.
Physics.


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## bullethead (Jun 11, 2017)

StriperAddict said:


> I'd have to ask, don't remember about the seat belts.  But the side swipe happened on the drivers side and the law of inertia suggests she couldn't get over to the passenger side in time and in her own strength.
> 
> About what pleases God, this might help...
> 
> ...


How does Steve KNOW what god wants?
Wouldn't, if it were true and god actually communicated with people,  be universal in that EVERYBODY who thinks they know what god wants would say the same thing??

Meaning: there would be no reason for Steve having to write an article that tells everybody what would obviously already be known.

It sounds as if this is Steve's opinion and what he would want as if he were god. He sounds like a lot of writers in the Bible.


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## welderguy (Jun 11, 2017)

Bullet, if you don't want to believe this stuff, and you think it's nothing but foolishness, why do you constantly ask about it and probe into it as if you do?

I've told you many times before that there is such a broad spectrum of spiritual maturity, that you are going to hear an equally broad spectrum of answers. If you judge the whole of religion by the majority, you will probably make a skewed judgement.


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## bullethead (Jun 11, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Bullet, if you don't want to believe this stuff, and you think it's nothing but foolishness, why do you constantly ask about it and probe into it as if you do?
> 
> I've told you many times before that there is such a broad spectrum of spiritual maturity, that you are going to hear an equally broad spectrum of answers. If you judge the whole of religion by the majority, you will probably make a skewed judgement.


Pay attention, I've mentioned numerous times in the confines of quite a few threads over many years why I discuss these things.


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## StriperAddict (Jun 13, 2017)

bullethead said:


> How does Steve KNOW what god wants?
> Wouldn't, if it were true and god actually communicated with people,  be universal in that EVERYBODY who thinks they know what god wants would say the same thing??
> 
> Meaning: there would be no reason for Steve having to write an article that tells everybody what would obviously already be known.
> ...



How often in your line of work did you try to bring someone up to speed, and got frustrated because they didn't get it?  They were of the same training as you, read the books of your trade, and just didn't see it.  I happen to know HVAC quite well, but there are still things I haven't quite gotten yet.

For what I 'know', I mention here in connection with the spiritual questions on this board.  In his note, Steve did the same.  No more, no less, just as we all with our present knowledge communicate those things that have a very real and present reality for us, and a comforting one at that. 

If perhaps the heart stuff behind the gospel, the free gift of His union with man with no strings attached, and a forever changed heart by His grace ---  were to make a path in your understanding - I'd greatly be glad for you and all who hear the simple message as well.  Keep questioning (I do all the time  ) and help from what you believe an unlikely place might come at the right place and time.


- Walter


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## bullethead (Jun 13, 2017)

StriperAddict said:


> How often in your line of work did you try to bring someone up to speed, and got frustrated because they didn't get it?  They were of the same training as you, read the books of your trade, and just didn't see it.  I happen to know HVAC quite well, but there are still things I haven't quite gotten yet.
> 
> For what I 'know', I mention here in connection with the spiritual questions on this board.  In his note, Steve did the same.  No more, no less, just as we all with our present knowledge communicate those things that have a very real and present reality for us, and a comforting one at that.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your eloquent style of expression but I do not agree with it's accuracy regarding the gospels and a god.


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## 660griz (Jun 14, 2017)

StriperAddict said:


> How often in your line of work did you try to bring someone up to speed, and got frustrated because they didn't get it?  They were of the same training as you, read the books of your trade, and just didn't see it.  I happen to know HVAC quite well, but there are still things I haven't quite gotten yet.
> 
> For what I 'know', I mention here in connection with the spiritual questions on this board.  In his note, Steve did the same.  No more, no less, just as we all with our present knowledge communicate those things that have a very real and present reality for us, and a comforting one at that.
> 
> ...



I think most atheist come from a place of knowing and believing. It is when they/we start asking honest questions from a place without fear that we determine our path.

If I understand your analogy, that would be like someone knowing the line of work and then decide the line of work is just not for them. After they decide, folks keep trying to explain the line of work to them.


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## bullethead (Jun 14, 2017)

660griz said:


> I think most atheist come from a place of knowing and believing. It is when they/we start asking honest questions from a place without fear that we determine our path.
> 
> If I understand your analogy, that would be like someone knowing the line of work and then decide the line of work is just not for them. After they decide, folks keep trying to explain the line of work to them.


Precisely!


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## ky55 (Jun 14, 2017)

660griz said:


> I think most atheist come from a place of knowing and believing. It is when they/we start asking honest questions from a place without fear that we determine our path.
> 
> If I understand your analogy, that would be like someone knowing the line of work and then decide the line of work is just not for them. After they decide, folks keep trying to explain the line of work to them.



Seems like comments of that type are pretty common. 
Sometimes they sound condescending, sometimes they sound like the typical "bless your heart", and sometimes they just carry an air of superiority. 
Doesn't really matter though- 
All of the above show a lack of respect for another person's opinion and choice.


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## Israel (Jun 14, 2017)

660griz said:


> I think most atheist come from a place of knowing and believing. It is when they/we start asking honest questions from a place without fear that we determine our path.
> 
> If I understand your analogy, that would be like someone knowing the line of work and then decide the line of work is just not for them. After they decide, folks keep trying to explain the line of work to them.



I'm kinda past caring about appearing indelicate, so that's some funny sh** right there!

Lemme see the equation.

Now..."atheist"...once "believer/knower"...became fearless...in fearlessness asked _honest _questions...that led to atheism.

So it looks like this?

B/K - fear +  honesty=atheist

woo hoo...and you call the "other folks" rather supercilious... you good looking fearless buncha tried and true hot dogs. Tell me...is it really this you like to think looks back from the mirror?

(And remember, points off for pudginess)


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## bullethead (Jun 14, 2017)

Israel said:


> I'm kinda past caring about appearing indelicate, so that's some funny sh** right there!
> 
> Lemme see the equation.
> 
> ...


Actually,  no, that is not it at all.

Griz described it exactly as it was for me. No extra theatrics from your interpretation fits or is needed.


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## 660griz (Jun 14, 2017)

Israel said:


> I'm kinda past caring about appearing indelicate, so that's some funny sh** right there!
> 
> Lemme see the equation.
> 
> ...



If by fearless you mean, no fear of going to h3!! or fear of questioning the almighty or the 'Book', or being outcast. Then yea. If by fearless you mean the out of context meaning of not fearing anything then, no. That's not it. 
And yes, that is exactly who is looking back from the mirror. 
Aint skeered! (Of most things)  Sharks, box jelly fish...to name a few. 

Appearing indelicate? I am pretty sure we are use to the indelicate. This is a subject that is virtually impossible to discuss without somebody getting offended.
However, I try to attack the religion and belief and not the person. TRY...I said. Not saying I have never gone personal but, usually it is in defense...I hope.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 14, 2017)

ky55 said:


> Seems like comments of that type are pretty common.
> Sometimes they sound condescending, sometimes they sound like the typical "bless your heart", and sometimes they just carry an air of superiority.
> Doesn't really matter though-
> All of the above show a lack of respect for another person's opinion and choice.



I've read through this thread and some of the others and I don't see them as you do. Your description describes just as many believers as non-believers.

The use of "ignorant" in this thread by a believer is about as close to your description that I see.

I would think a person who believes he will live forever might have a slight feeling of superiority over one who will die when he dies.


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## Israel (Jun 15, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Actually,  no, that is not it at all.
> 
> Griz described it exactly as it was for me. No extra theatrics from your interpretation fits or is needed.





> If by fearless you mean, no fear of going to h3!! or fear of questioning the almighty or the 'Book', or being outcast. Then yea. If by fearless you mean the out of context meaning of not fearing anything then, no. That's not it.
> And yes, that is exactly who is looking back from the mirror.
> Aint skeered! (Of most things)  Sharks, box jelly fish...to name a few.
> 
> ...



LOL, I feel you dog.

He!! is the place we make for ourselves, where no one else but ourselves...fits. It's as perfect as salvation is in its provision. 

Any you guys ever spent any time in solitary? Neither have I, but seen it a few times.

Yeah yeah, we all have our own ways of saying "But I'm the unbreakable man..."

Now, that's really funny, too.


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## Israel (Jun 15, 2017)

With no apology to Robert

You walk into a church, or you walk into a bar,
You're tired and lonely and you've travelled way too far,
The door you push says pull but that's just who you are, 
you never really trusted he'd meet you where you are 
but once inside their faces chill you to the bone...
And you know there's something happening here, but you don't know what it is...
Do you, Mr Jones?

You try to feel at home, you're hungry and just want to eat, 
they pass a plate of body parts and say "start with the feet"
but through the waves of nausea the hungers stays complete, 
and you give in now chewing down to the bone
And you know there's something happening here, but you don't know what it is...
Do you, Mr Jones?

Familiar faces now just show a heinous grin,
Once friends and family and you don't know why you let them in 
They got their clipboards out, to enumerate your sin
Their pencils recommend that you get tossed in bin
But you keep eating as the blood runs down your chin
This full plate you got, can't be denied, you know that it's your own...
And you know there's something happening here, but you don't know what it is...
Do you, Mr Jones?

This taste for flesh you got, well where did it come from?
You wonder if from a child when sucking on your thumb, 
or playing king of hill when on your chest you drummed, 
the winner gets the cake the losers get the crumbs
and from where you're sitting now the rest just look like bums
but there's a shaking and you know it from your throne,
And you know there's something happening here, but you don't know what it is...
Do you, Mr Jones?


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## bullethead (Jun 15, 2017)

Israel said:


> LOL, I feel you dog.
> 
> He!! is the place we make for ourselves, where no one else but ourselves...fits. It's as perfect as salvation is in its provision.
> 
> ...


So h3ll is different than described in the bible?


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## Israel (Jun 15, 2017)

Not at all, there's plenty of weeping there and gnashing of teeth, just not much going on in the way of communing, y'know...like...

to take the place in this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas fell away, that he might _go to his own place_.

One either gets what is prepared for him...as gift...or gets the best he can do for himself.

Kinda like...now.


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## bullethead (Jun 15, 2017)

Israel said:


> Not at all, there's plenty of weeping there and gnashing of teeth, just not much going on in the way of communing, y'know...like...
> 
> to take the place in this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas fell away, that he might _go to his own place_.
> 
> ...



Plenty of weeping going on and gnashing of teeth......
I couldn't know those details. How can you? I think you are making it up.


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## swampstalker24 (Jun 15, 2017)

660griz said:


> If by fearless you mean, no fear of going to h3!! or fear of questioning the almighty or the 'Book', or being outcast. Then yea. If by fearless you mean the out of context meaning of not fearing anything then, no. That's not it.
> And yes, that is exactly who is looking back from the mirror.
> Aint skeered! (Of most things)  Sharks, box jelly fish...to name a few.
> 
> ...



Ahhh fear....  the fundamental tenant of both Christianity and Islam.  You would think such a loving, all powerful god would not need to instill fear into his subjects in order for them to embrace his teachings


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## bullethead (Jun 15, 2017)

swampstalker24 said:


> Ahhh fear....  the fundamental tenant of both Christianity and Islam.  You would think such a loving, all powerful god would not need to instill fear into his subjects in order for them to embrace his teachings



I give thee Free Will for you do not have to love me nor believe in me.
But ifins ya don't,  im gonna make sure you burn for all eternity.


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## swampstalker24 (Jun 15, 2017)

bullethead said:


> I give thee Free Will for you do not have to love me nor believe in me.
> But ifins ya don't,  im gonna make sure you burn for all eternity.



The original racket


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## ky55 (Jun 15, 2017)

swampstalker24 said:


> Ahhh fear....  the fundamental tenant of both Christianity and Islam.



Can't speak for Islam, but you can throw in guilt and shame for Christianity. 
I guess that makes it a trinity!!


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## stringmusic (Jun 15, 2017)

bullethead said:


> I give thee Free Will for you do not have to love me nor believe in me.
> But ifins ya don't,  im gonna make sure you burn for all eternity.



God gives us free will not to choose to be with Him in heaven when you die.

It's not going to be a picnic to be apart from the presence of God, which is he11. God doesn't want you there so He made a way that you wouldn't have to spend eternity apart from Him. 

All these years and you're still making posts like this, it makes one think you're not listening.


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## stringmusic (Jun 15, 2017)

ky55 said:


> Can't speak for Islam, but you can throw in guilt and shame for Christianity.
> I guess that makes it a trinity!!


Do you think humanity should do away with guilt and shame? Is there something wrong with it?


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## ky55 (Jun 15, 2017)

stringmusic said:


> Do you think humanity should do away with guilt and shame? Is there something wrong with it?



Only if you allow an "imaginary friend" to be the cause.


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## swampstalker24 (Jun 15, 2017)

stringmusic said:


> God gives us free will not to choose to be with Him in heaven when you die.
> 
> It's not going to be a picnic to be apart from the presence of God, which is he11. God doesn't want you there so He made a way that you wouldn't have to spend eternity apart from Him.
> 
> All these years and you're still making posts like this, it makes one think you're not listening.



So string i take it you dont buy into the fire and brimstine teachings, the eternal suffering, and endless pain concept of h3ll? But rather it simply being "apart from god"? And he doesnt want us there yet created the place and allows us to chose a path the will ultimately lead there?

Thats equitable to a parent not wanting their children to drink alcohol yet they decide to build a liquor store in the back yard with flashing neon lights and a well lit path.  Something only an irrational being would do.


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## bullethead (Jun 15, 2017)

stringmusic said:


> God gives us free will not to choose to be with Him in heaven when you die.
> 
> It's not going to be a picnic to be apart from the presence of God, which is he11. God doesn't want you there so He made a way that you wouldn't have to spend eternity apart from Him.
> 
> All these years and you're still making posts like this, it makes one think you're not listening.


String, I listen. What I hear is no different from the believers in other gods. 
The people telling me these things have not died and come back to tell me all about their time after death. The people telling me these things do not have a clue to what they are talking about based off of experience.  All they can truthfully tell me is based off of their own individual hopes and needs which are fueled by ancient stories designed to take advantage of a person's need to deal with their own mortality. You happen to believe in the one that suits you best, or the one that is most popular in your upbringing. Does anyone study them all and pick based off of factual evidence.?They start with one, swap and switch denominations within until they find the one that best suits their own needs and roll with as if it is the one true version.

I do not need or want to take your word for it. I lived that life already. I was fooling myself by listening to others, I was fooling myself waiting for a god to talk to me, I am now honest with myself. 

All these years and you are still making claims that you are unable to back up.  You still tell me things about an unknowable invisible creature that you have never met. I listen, but WHY would I take that seriously ?


----------



## Israel (Jun 16, 2017)

Why do we talk to each other...at all?
It appears whatever Jesus you had, were "told" by others to believe in, and about whom you are now "honest with yourself", well, perhaps your complaint about him, about that (as widespread in tenor and substance as I hear from the "most of you") experience is its insufficiency. His insufficiency. "Its"...insufficiency.

Of course I can't make you...or anyone, even myself for that matter "make you to see" the Jesus I know...though it be thrown as challenge often. And as you know, to many others. "Produce this 'god' for us...for our judgement, our discerning".

This has everything, from the outset, wrong in its matter of being. Man is the product. if you really want the god who is producible from man...I don't believe you (or any other here, or even in the _upstairs_ as you guys say) have to think long on that foolishness. Who _really_ wants the god a man can "produce" at will? Can force to "show himself"?

Any and all of that is so wrongheaded as to be laughable. Oh...a man can say...can plead...can with the utmost earnestness in word...speak..."no really...really...I would believe if you could just summon him up, or by some means present to me a way he can be summoned...made to "me" sufficiently present in being (as you say he is to you) that I might...believe" This is what I hear, almost without exception...always. "Make known to us...this god you have". Or, at the very least (and equally contrariwise, at the _very most_) you say _you have_.

No he is not a performing monkey. Nor is he "what is had by men", he is the hav_er_. He has the man, not vice versa.

Yet, in that, I hear, despite all the resistance (or what may want to appear so) a plea, a calling out...(Back to the original question...why do we even talk to each other, at all?) for a sufficiency.


"I was once a believer...but I found out it was all hooey" "I am now honest with myself" "I saw all there was to see about this Jesus thing, and then, I peeked behind the curtain".

To that, all I can say is...no wonder. A brother has told me, and yes, I trust him...that he saw the possibility of "another" Jesus being preached. He even accepted to himself he was not exempted from that possibility of "preaching another Jesus, another gospel". He went so far as to say that even seeming "heavenly beings" could endorse a such....that is...coming to preach "another Jesus". A Jesus, from where I sit now, would be something of an _in_sufficiency.

So, I don't know what "Jesus" you had, see/saw or think you know about...even now. But if you _think_ that He is summonable (who will ascend to bring him down, or descend to bring him up?) at the will of man (mine or any other)...then yes "that" Jesus would be, by very nature of concept...insufficient.

So yes...I accept you as being honest, now accept my honest appraisal (if you can)...the very "best" of what you have seen of the Jesus you have seen...is insufficient...to you. You are asking for the "unifying equation" of all things, and haven't seen it, nor been able to find it produced through any man you know, or have ever spoken to. I believe you.

But all that points to only one thing that I have already (and not only myself...but of many others to whom you have spoken, and have spoken to you)  accepted...their own insufficiency to "make God appear" to men.

So yes, to say in whatever manner, in whatever words, in whatever _motive_ (and chemicals would rather be at a loss for explaining their bonds) "your God is insufficient to me" is of no matter. We have already accepted our own insufficiency to "explain Him"...so all we really do hear is "I find you...insufficient" to show this God. Which of course...is perfect.


For we do not preach ourselves (as sufficient to anything)...but Christ.


----------



## drippin' rock (Jun 16, 2017)

Israel said:


> Why do we talk to each other...at all?
> It appears whatever Jesus you had, were "told" by others to believe in, and about whom you are now "honest with yourself", well, perhaps your complaint about him, about that (as widespread in tenor and substance as I hear from the "most of you") experience is its insufficiency. His insufficiency. "Its"...insufficiency.
> 
> Of course I can't make you...or anyone, even myself for that matter "make you to see" the Jesus I know...though it be thrown as challenge often. And as you know, to many others. "Produce this 'god' for us...for our judgement, our discerning".
> ...



And the fact remains, after all your exhaustive expounding, that this loving creator who only wants our devotion and attention(or else), has remained silent and absent, leaving us to fill in the blanks, assume, and suppose.  

In the absence of a god, mankind created one.


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## bullethead (Jun 16, 2017)

Israel said:


> Why do we talk to each other...at all?
> It appears whatever Jesus you had, were "told" by others to believe in, and about whom you are now "honest with yourself", well, perhaps your complaint about him, about that (as widespread in tenor and substance as I hear from the "most of you") experience is its insufficiency. His insufficiency. "Its"...insufficiency.
> 
> Of course I can't make you...or anyone, even myself for that matter "make you to see" the Jesus I know...though it be thrown as challenge often. And as you know, to many others. "Produce this 'god' for us...for our judgement, our discerning".
> ...


"He" just is Not
I do not expect the non existent to show except when the likes of you and others say it not only exists but interacts with you, talks to you and that you know it so well that you take it upon yourselves to speak for it because YOU know what it wants.
All the believers of any and all gods that have ever and will ever believe in any so called gods sound just like you while saying different and conflicting details about the same gods.

As close as I have gotten to a god is the same as close as I have gotten to a comic book superhero. It is through the individuals that have convinced themselves they are someone else they would rather be... in a different realm that they would rather be in...and have to act out those situations as if they were real. They talk the part, dress the part, live the lifestyle, adopt the "speak", gather together, reminice about events that didn't really happen, tell others about it at every chance and try to convince others that what they have is unique and special and that the others should try it. But at the end of the day it is just a fantasy.
They are the product of themselves and not only expect others to join them but think that others are ignoring the "facts " that they have convinced themselves exist.

Sharpen your ears, wear a cape, talk FOR a god... go for it. But stand in front of your magical Clint Eastwood funhouse mirror when you do it. Then you can use terms like wrongheaded and laughable.


----------



## Israel (Jun 16, 2017)

bullethead said:


> "He" just is Not
> I do not expect the non existent to show except when the likes of you and others say it not only exists but interacts with you, talks to you and that you know it so well that you take it upon yourselves to speak for it because YOU know what it wants.
> All the believers of any and all gods that have ever and will ever believe in any so called gods sound just like you while saying different and conflicting details about the same gods.
> 
> ...



You do not see the fallacy? What difference the man who..."is now honest with himself"...and some "other" man accused of being given to "made up things?"

We are all "made up"...by the Producer. He the farmer, we the produce. One fit to one thing, another fit to another...and all just right for the revealing.

_Feedback_ is the only thing man knows of the knowing of himself. And, over that neither your nor I...have any control. Unless, of course, your honesty to yourself is the perfection of truth.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 16, 2017)

Israel said:


> You do not see the fallacy? What difference the man who..."is now honest with himself"...and some "other" man accused of being given to "made up things?"
> 
> We are all "made up"...by the Producer. He the farmer, we the produce. One fit to one thing, another fit to another...and all just right for the revealing.
> 
> _Feedback_ is the only thing man knows of the knowing of himself. And, over that neither your nor I...have any control. Unless, of course, your honesty to yourself is the perfection of truth.


What I know is that we both "are"

The fallacy is pretending to know exactly how we got here.

You certainly need a producer for your show


----------



## Israel (Jun 16, 2017)

> "He" just is Not





> A god could PROVE a god.
> It doesn't mean everybody would believe, but goodness, wouldn't it prove a god exists if a an event witnessed worldwide by everyone took place? ...



The one who related this is true: 

‘Then I beg you, father,’ he said, ‘send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them so they will not also end up in this place of torment.’  But Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let your brothers listen to them.’…‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone is sent to them from the dead, they will repent.’ Then Abraham said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”


----------



## bullethead (Jun 16, 2017)

Israel said:


> The one who related this is true:
> 
> ‘Then I beg you, father,’ he said, ‘send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them so they will not also end up in this place of torment.’  But Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let your brothers listen to them.’…‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone is sent to them from the dead, they will repent.’ Then Abraham said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”


Israel, the one who related that was saying the obvious. It goes for all people and all gods. The way it is stated in your bible is to make an excuse for the inability of a real god to captivate all humans. 

My god can but he won't because if he did you won't believe it anyway.
Translation 
My god doesnt exist so I have to make excuses for what I think should be but isnt.


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## Israel (Jun 17, 2017)

I don't see that in that, at all.
I see Jesus saying that a man that is not convicted of a righteousness greater than his own will not believe.
The gospel, the good news...is really only good news to traitors, to convicts, to those who have had their eyes open to being under a lash that they either cannot, or will not any longer deny is of their own deserving. And it is clearly not something of which one man can make another aware or accept.
After all...we are all...pretty decent folks, right?

Yes...it's an "out". It's _the_ out...the "get out of jail" card for the most hardened of criminals. No, it is not fair in any sense man could perceive, indeed it is probably the most "unfair" thing ever revealed.

You said in another post very recently, "hearing the truth is hard...accepting it...even harder". Everyone, you, me...yes...everyone...wants points for "doing the hard work"...something to show for it...for "putting in the time on this" (whatever "this" may be).

What is more offensive than watching someone get "all the credit" for what appears to be none of their own doing? A thing just "given them" while any other one in particular labors long and hard to have the very thing they see _just_ given another. Yes, it's infuriating...until that fury is faced.

Jesus made it very plain he didn't come for the whole and well. He came for the ill. Then of course, the well and whole, having no need of him, will not find him beckoning with healing. Why would they, how could they?

A man could say "But I don't want to be found a wretch" then obviously, that man doesn't really want to be found...at all.

Me, I got no choice in the matter.

In what seems the kindest way imaginable you tell me I am a snake oil salesman, the Ron Popeil of forums, the indefatigable gas bag of bloggingly tedious posts. But these are really far kinder descriptions than I merit. Ron Popeil is probably much kinder, bloggers probably know their place better than I, and snake oil salesmen may even succumb to a restitution of means when pressed.

Yes, in every way, at every turn, without exception I am the "that guy" that all the memes so warn against being... "don't be that guy".

I just can't feel bad about it anymore as once I did, laboring under a lash to be a someone and something other than what I am. Of course no one in _their_ right mind would want to listen to me or think like I do for fear of becoming in appearance as I appear to them.

But I have a friend. 

And been on this earth long enough, and in this earth long enough to know, things are never as they seem. But before I grab for my own gold ring touting a tenure in which I have had no choice, no, none at all, (I have not had to keep myself awake to remember to merely breathe)...all of it has been given me, friend and all...in a moment...in the twinkling of an eye. Undeserved.

No, I am not a gunslinger, not a man one could fear with lightning in his holster, and surely not as good a friend as this one is portrayed...plainly willing to take a bullet in order to stay close. I am the man with man boobs, who cowers easily, tires quickly, and always exceeds in imagination of myself at the expense of others. But to trade the truth of that could be to exchange the truth of why a silly movie is even able to speak to me, or a silly cat, or a silly cup of coffee, or a silly thing that has been happening every single day...relentlessly...the dawn. To be really awake to any, must include being awake to all. 

Even the odd truth that as creature I am probably host to an equal number of bacteria as I am composed of "my own" living cells. Seems I am "home" to an almost innumerable host of things, my own cells included that, were they all having to wait upon my conscious instructions for their directions...well, I've long since ceded this house of consciousness is to some purpose for consciousness that consciousness can even be fooled by. Like believing it can even direct itself. "I will be conscious of this...but...Oh, no, not that!" I know I can't make anyone see the humor in that. But if they have...we laugh.
No, I am always needing to be told through a feedback over which I have no control of "what's going on". I am well aware of the barter of men in souls to secure what they hope to have, what they believe they need. Selling off a thing not really their own to sell in hope of purchase of deemed necessities. Pleasant feedback. Believing they start with full account, but discovering they have been laboring all of debt...from the outset. Yes, Jesus told me that.

If you haven't been faithful with someone else's property, who will give you your own? Lk 16:12

But yes, I have a friend. He keeps me...to the keeping of him...in my soul. After all, it's his, he purchased it, that debt riddled decrepit thing I only found use for in the selling.


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## bullethead (Jun 17, 2017)

Israel said:


> I don't see that in that, at all.
> I see Jesus saying that a man that is not convicted of a righteousness greater than his own will not believe.
> The gospel, the good news...is really only good news to traitors, to convicts, to those who have had their eyes open to being under a lash that they either cannot, or will not any longer deny is of their own deserving. And it is clearly not something of which one man can make another aware or accept.
> After all...we are all...pretty decent folks, right?
> ...


Nobody that actually heard Jesus say anything wrote any part of those gospels.  They had no idea what Jesus said or didn't say. Neither do you.


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## StriperAddict (Jun 17, 2017)

*A small take on 'proof'*



bullethead said:


> Nobody that actually heard Jesus say anything wrote any part of those gospels.  They had no idea what Jesus said or didn't say. Neither do you.



I came to a breakthrough of sorts in a tangible way some years back when I was having issue with the scriptures as "a whole".  Guess you could call it a doubting Thomas moment for me -- which ended well.  The appeal of this may be relevant.

The bible always had a cohesiveness for me and that  became more apparent with time.  But after a decade in the faith (late 80's) there were some points that didn't seem as if they "spoke" or were understood at "any" level, not even a spiritual one, to me.  In essence, perhaps like you, I saw an over kill of rules and regs that didn't connect the dots with the Lord's words: "Come to me --- I will give you rest".  Yes, I accepted the invitation some years back, and chose to believe and take our Lord at His word. 
But for a time I had a crisis of faith, .... 
"what if this 'book of books' hadn't really 'spoken' the Life I had witnessed once?"  The strange thing was that for whatever gaze I put toward that sacrificial work of Love from a roman cross, I turned the gaze _back on myself_ and began to 'measure' my 'performance' toward this One who delighted in me not for a perfect performance but for His Life freely given within hearts, including mine.

So the futility of weighing my duties against His work became a looking away from that unconditional gift and the grace by which a man is sin rescued, and not out of his own doing. 
There's much more to say about this, but this is not my main thought. I'll include it only to describe my personal struggle, and my frustration from how I was 'seeing' the Life message in the bible. 

Shoot back about 150 years to another man, a brilliant linguist and mathematician... "He had a voracious appetite for knowledge, especially in literature and linguistics. At the age of 22 he emigrated to the United States and entered Harvard University, where he spent four years, picking up Greek and Hebrew, and graduating in 1882 with a Master of Literary Criticism." - Wiki added. 

This man was a staunch doubter of the message of the bible, but while investigating the original old and new testament manuscripts he found something so fascinating that he devoted the rest of his life to it.

He proved the truth of that verse ...
2 Pete 1:21 - No prophecy ever originated from humans. Instead, it was given by the Holy Spirit as humans spoke under God’s direction.

In short, an incalculable amount of patterns and equations had come out of his studies, so much so that to this day no one has been able to refute his findings, nor has the largest computing systems and servers ever matched the intricate and profound "weave" of the pages of scripture, with a blueprint unmatched by any other. These intricacies could not have been from the minds of Moses, the prophets or those ragamuffin disciples including the Apostle Paul himself, with out a Divine working through such men.  

Being convinced the bible had a source Higher than man's imagination, he also began to look at each of the 66 books of 'cannon' and witness to the mark of Providence in it.

Perhaps he considered, "What if He should "be" -- of all time and eternity, Him who has come to bear all our burdens?"

Yes, the grappling of this thing called 'trust' and 'faith', toward Him who is unseen, yet calls, wills (that none miss it), that loves, gives ... and gives _rest_.  This man began that trek also, and no turning back but a redemptive conclusion.  

Now maybe this mathematical work won't resonate with some. I get that, but my own time on this became a refreshment for me in the bible studies from that point forward.  I would hope a look at this, as thoroughly as possible might answer doubts and begin to give clarity and knowledge of its Benevolent Author.  

Indeed, it's been my own experience that this man's linguistic and math pattern findings have 'spoken' to doubt, especially my own. Especially in times of 'dryness' if you will, to the life of faith.  
Yes, since this 'crisis', I have found that One Man was very well and fully given to my spirit and soul and began to show Himself in that "book' as one to whom I may have union. Yes, by this at the right time was to have a refreshing 'look' at Him who dwells in light.

==============

Some links here might add better insight than I have tried to explain ...

This link is to an entire book by Ivan Panin:
The structure of the Bible : a proof of the verbal inspiration of Scripture

Wiki 

Other Books at Amazon

All this to say - consider uncovering the message of the bible itself. As I went back and did just that, many of my objections were answered or just became 'smaller', but the unconditional message of union, acceptance & Mercy & Grace became overwhelming.

My 2 pesos...
There's proof enough of the scriptures' eternal, Providential Origin from this man's work. 
Yes, even he, a hardened atheist, became a believer with time.  
Peace


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## bullethead (Jun 18, 2017)

StriperAddict said:


> I came to a breakthrough of sorts in a tangible way some years back when I was having issue with the scriptures as "a whole".  Guess you could call it a doubting Thomas moment for me -- which ended well.  The appeal of this may be relevant.
> 
> The bible always had a cohesiveness for me and that  became more apparent with time.  But after a decade in the faith (late 80's) there were some points that didn't seem as if they "spoke" or were understood at "any" level, not even a spiritual one, to me.  In essence, perhaps like you, I saw an over kill of rules and regs that didn't connect the dots with the Lord's words: "Come to me --- I will give you rest".  Yes, I accepted the invitation some years back, and chose to believe and take our Lord at His word.
> But for a time I had a crisis of faith, ....
> ...


Who is this guy so I can research him?


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## ambush80 (Jun 18, 2017)

stringmusic said:


> God gives us free will not to choose to be with Him in heaven when you die.
> 
> It's not going to be a picnic to be apart from the presence of God, which is he11. God doesn't want you there so He made a way that you wouldn't have to spend eternity apart from Him.
> 
> All these years and you're still making posts like this, it makes one think you're not listening.



Jump to 20:43.



At 21:40:

"When someone says something too evil to believe, one response is not to doubt their sincerity, but to expand one's capacity to imagine what otherwise decent people can desire."  

I understand you, String.  Given that you judge everything from the starting point that everything God does is just and right and good and loving, I can see why the concept of He11 doesn't bother you.  Luckily, you do what most Western people do with the concept of He11, you mentally compartmentalize it and shelve it in a dark corner where you don't have to deal with it daily.  If you responded to it like the truly horrific idea that it is, and in conjunction with the 'love of your neighbor' that you aspire to, you would be tearing your clothes in the streets and yelling at the top of your lungs for God to show sinners like me some mercy.  You would stand on a street corner with a sign and a bullhorn, pleading out of love for  everyone to repent.  If you told me you were gonna kill yourself I would PM you.  I would call you on the phone.  I would go to your house.  I'm going to burn in He11 for eternity. Don't you love me enough to at least do that?  

It's a rhetorical question.  Don't call me or come to my house unless you just wanna hang out.  You don't believe in He11 anymore than I do.


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## ambush80 (Jun 18, 2017)

ambush80 said:


>




More awesome quotes. at 1:17:18.

Graem Wood: "God has blinded us to lots of things before, why not 'this' too?  Why should we expect that our scientific instruments will be able to do what God may very well not want us to be able to do?"

Sam Harris: "This is how faith functions as the ultimate 'get out of epistemological jail free' card."


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## welderguy (Jun 18, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> Jump to 20:43.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We are not your saviour. We are only reflectors of the light of our saviour.
Don't mistake that.

I believe in a real he11.


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## StriperAddict (Jun 18, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Who is this guy so I can research him?



Ivan Panin, I left a couple of links in the post.  

This one link is a good synopsis ...  Ivan Panin's - Bible Numerics


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## ambush80 (Jun 18, 2017)

welderguy said:


> We are not your saviour. We are only reflectors of the light of our saviour.
> Don't mistake that.
> 
> I believe in a real he11.



Wrong answer.

You should have said "God didn't give me that job.  He moves me to testify only to the degree that He knows I can stand to offer.  He would never give me a cross I couldn't bear".


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## Israel (Jun 19, 2017)

So they said to Jesus, “We do not know.” “Neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things,” He replied. “But what do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today’ in the vineyard. ‘I will not,’ he replied. But later he changed his mind and went.

Then the man went to the second son and told him the same thing. ‘I will, sir,’ he said. But he did not go. Which of the two did the will of his father?” “The first,” they answered. Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God before you."

To me it appears the first son was given time to repent, to rethink...to go. The second son was given time to discover his proclaimed obedience was a vanity.

To be honest, I have no idea into which son I am presently fit. The most recalcitrant I see may indeed be the one made to obedience...while I sit and judge him for saying "no". And I could indeed be the one proclaiming obedience...with no real intention of going....till I find out. Completely mistaken about what "sort of man" I am...and therefore completely mistaken about everything else. (here could be a necessary pause...to consider that)

yes, I am "in the experiment" no less than any other.

God knows.


Addendum...I am trusting at least someone, if only one other one...will see the humor in this, having found it posted to my feed immediately upon leaving this forum. Of course to some it may seem completely irrelevant...to another just a thing at best of "serendipity"...but you ask...why would a man believe he is hearing from the God of all gods? I just believe I can no longer avoid it.


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## bullethead (Jun 19, 2017)

Israel said:


> So they said to Jesus, “We do not know.” “Neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things,” He replied. “But what do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today’ in the vineyard. ‘I will not,’ he replied. But later he changed his mind and went.
> 
> Then the man went to the second son and told him the same thing. ‘I will, sir,’ he said. But he did not go. Which of the two did the will of his father?” “The first,” they answered. Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God before you."
> 
> ...


Quotes from Jesus and his followers recorded by someone else who wasn't there. 
People pretend a god knows


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## bullethead (Jun 19, 2017)

StriperAddict said:


> Ivan Panin, I left a couple of links in the post.
> 
> This one link is a good synopsis ...  Ivan Panin's - Bible Numerics



This is a good link to counter Panins "work"
http://www.rationalskepticism.org/creationism/ivan-panin-t38335.html


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## Israel (Jun 19, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> Jump to 20:43.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Don't forget the part about wiping the dust off one's feet.


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## ambush80 (Jun 19, 2017)

Israel said:


> Don't forget the part about wiping the dust off one's feet.



How do you view that in reference to yourself?


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## StriperAddict (Jun 21, 2017)

bullethead said:


> This is a good link to counter Panins "work"
> http://www.rationalskepticism.org/creationism/ivan-panin-t38335.html



The problem with this and any skeptic of Panin's findings is that none of them devoted their entire lives to this inquiry as Panin did.  His volume of research was huge and constantly affirmed the proofs throughout the entire cannon of scripture of a one of a kind complexity.  As soon as a section uncovered a numerical thread, Panin went further to dissect it, and included the verses around it as well as the book of scripture itself; Psalms, the gospels, Isaiah, etc., etc.  This man Panin was a linguistic and mathematical genius, and what he found were numerical and complex equation structures and patterns so intricate that even the best super computers today could not recreate.  Not a computer or man on earth could write a book and make it include the kinds of countless numerical threads like the bible. 

Incidentally, no other 'religious' book(s) have any complex pattern either.  

Sure, I haven't made sense out of ALL of the bible as far as some history, etc., is concerned.  How long were the 7 days of creation? I don't know. And that part about the sword thrust into the fat guys big belly is one that for now I'll let pass with a chuckle for real .  
But the major message of God and man's union is one I continue to learn much from, and the road to know more ain't over yet.  And Panin had seen and believed -- by a doorway available to us hardened skeptics, the word of God.
Peace


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## bullethead (Jun 21, 2017)

StriperAddict said:


> The problem with this and any skeptic of Panin's findings is that none of them devoted their entire lives to this inquiry as Panin did.  His volume of research was huge and constantly affirmed the proofs throughout the entire cannon of scripture of a one of a kind complexity.  As soon as a section uncovered a numerical thread, Panin went further to dissect it, and included the verses around it as well as the book of scripture itself; Psalms, the gospels, Isaiah, etc., etc.  This man Panin was a linguistic and mathematical genius, and what he found were numerical and complex equation structures and patterns so intricate that even the best super computers today could not recreate.  Not a computer or man on earth could write a book and make it include the kinds of countless numerical threads like the bible.
> 
> Incidentally, no other 'religious' book(s) have any complex pattern either.
> 
> ...


I was unaware that lifetime dedication was the end all factor in something being true.

If you read the comments in the link you would see that mathematical code  used for the song "Ice Ice Baby" predicted the 911 attack. They extracted predictions from MobyDick and the Hong Kong telephone book.

Post #10 in the comments talks about the omission of vowels in the original Hebrew text and how it let the text be manipulated easier to "find" the code. 

Manipulated  being  the key word when dealing with "hidden" codes.


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## bullethead (Jun 21, 2017)

http://users.cecs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html


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## bullethead (Jun 21, 2017)

From the skeptics
"
The best thing about Panin then is that it led to someone quoting Melville.

I do remember running into Panin's arguments in my religious days and the criticism is that he constructed a method so loose that the miracle would be if he did not find some sort of repetitive numerological pattern. The problem is you can take about any book and find the same patterns because his methodology is constructed to create them.

I remember he did things like borrowing from one verse (setting aside that the whole division into verses is a more recent phenomenon) to make sure certain numbers added up in the verse before or after it. Then he would ignore that because of that, the verse he borrowed from no longer added up to the numbers he wanted. Or, if nothing he did got a verse to add up, he would just switch to a different version of the Bible, translate it back into the original language and use that version for that verse.

He had so many caveats, so many exceptions and special rules that he made up whenever things were not turning out to fit his hypothesis, and then ignored those rules when they did not lead to his preferred results, that the whole claim was worthless and, as stated, you got the same mathematical results from any book"


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## ambush80 (Jun 21, 2017)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4034787.stm


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## ambush80 (Jun 21, 2017)

http://incrediblethings.com/web/jesus-spotted-in-a-dogs-bum-bum/


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 21, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> http://incrediblethings.com/web/jesus-spotted-in-a-dogs-bum-bum/



That might be the Zig-Zag Man. I haven't seen him since high school.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 22, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> That might be the Zig-Zag Man. I haven't seen him since high school.


They do look amazingly similar.


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## ambush80 (Jun 22, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> That might be the Zig-Zag Man. I haven't seen him since high school.





WaltL1 said:


> They do look amazingly similar.



You guys have got me beat.

Evidence:

https://www.google.com/search?q=sas...rKt9HUAhVBOD4KHSakDl8Q7AkIOw&biw=1152&bih=529


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