# HOA / Covenants Legal Question



## huntnnut (Jul 15, 2009)

I live in Lawrenceville which is in Gwinnett County and store my boat in my driveway, of which is fine according to Gwinnett County Code.  However, my HOA has been giving me some grief over it for several years now in terms of sending me letters informing me that I'm in violation of Gwinnett County Code and the subdivsion covenants and now all of a sudden they are attempting to fine me.  

I have convinced them of late that I'm not in violation of the Gwinnett County Codes.  However they still say I'm in violation of the covenants although the way I interpret the covenants I'm not in violation.  It appears they are interpreting the covenants in the way they would like for them to read verses the true intent of the covenant.  Since I deal with high level contracts, I can usually understand any legal verbage used, however I'm not quite sure I fully understand the intent of the 2nd paragraph.  If anyone can help me clear up this issue it would be much appreciated.

The provision is as follows.

The term "*vehicles*," *as used in this provision*, *shall include without limitation*, motor homes, *boats*, trailers, motorcycles, minibikes, scooters, go-carts, trucks, campers, buses, vans, and automobiles.  *All vehicles shall be parked* within garages, *driveways* or other paved parking areas located on a lot.  Parking in yards is prohibited.  If the lot includes a garage with exterior doors, such doors shall be kept closed at all times, except during times of ingress and egress from the garage.

No vehicles may be left upon any portion of the Community, except in a garage or other area designated by the Board, for a period longer than five (5) days if it is unlicensed or if it is in condition so that it cannot operate on public streets.  After the five (5) day period, the inoperable vehicle shall be considered a nuisance and may be removed from the Community.  *No boat, recreational vehicle, motor home, mobile home, or towed vehicle shall be temporarily kept or stored in the Community for any period in excess of twelve (12) hours unless kept in a garage or other area designated by the Board*: vehicles parked in violation of this provision shall be considered a nuisance and may be removed from the Community.  Trucks with mounted campers which are an Owner's or occupant's primary means of transportation shall not be considered recreational vehicles, provided they are used on a regular basis for transportation and the camper is stored out of public view upon removal.  No eighteen wheel trucks or the cabs of such trucks shall be parked, kept or stored within the Community, and if so parked, kept, or stored shall be considered a nuisance and may be removed from the Community.


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## rjcruiser (Jul 15, 2009)

I'd say based on the second paragraph, you can store your boat for up to 12 hours in your drive/in view from the street.  After that, it can be removed from the community.

If you don't like it, park it in your garage or behind a privacy fence.



			
				HOA Covenants said:
			
		

> No boat, recreational vehicle, motor home, mobile home, or towed vehicle shall be temporarily kept or stored in the Community for any period in excess of twelve (12) hours unless kept in a garage or other area designated by the Board: vehicles parked in violation of this provision shall be considered a nuisance and may be removed from the Community.


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## ogre (Jul 15, 2009)

This is what i think i read;you can park a boat in the driveway according to paragragh one,paragragh two says you can't park anything longer than 12 hours unless"it's in a garage or other designated area by the board"hence para 1 -driveways,garages or other paved areas.they already approved the area on the lot
now this is why i bought four acres and moved out of my sub:>i'm the "hoa"
i read that i think you are within your rights,others may not,secure a lawyer and be legal either way it falls


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## Huntinfool (Jul 15, 2009)

The two paragraphs are conflicting with one another IMO.

In para one, they define vehicle to include your boat and say you can park it in your garage OR in your driveway.  

Then, in para 2, they specifically say that your boat has to be in your garage if it's there for more than 12 hours.

As I read it, your both right???

But, since they are the board, I would also imagine that there is a section in there that pretty much says "if there are conflicts or unclear passages, the decision of the board shall stand as clarification of the rules".

My guess?  You're gonna have to move that boat.


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## huntnnut (Jul 15, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> I'd say based on the second paragraph, you can store your boat for up to 12 hours in your drive/in view from the street.  After that, it can be removed from the community.
> 
> If you don't like it, park it in your garage or behind a privacy fence.




The supposedly 2-car garage is way to small for the boat,  I can't even park my crew cab p/u in the garage and there is no vehicular access to the back yard.    

I use my boat for striper fishing regularly so a boat storage facility is a huge inconvenience.  I prefer to keep my boat in my driveway and I appear to be within my rights according to my interpretation of the covenants.


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## huntnnut (Jul 15, 2009)

ogre said:


> This is what i think i read;you can park a boat in the driveway according to paragragh one,paragragh two says you can't park anything longer than 12 hours unless"it's in a garage or other designated area by the board"hence para 1 -driveways,garages or other paved areas.they already approved the area on the lot
> now this is why i bought four acres and moved out of my sub:>i'm the "hoa"
> i read that i think you are within your rights,others may not,secure a lawyer and be legal either way it falls




I agree in you accessment and I will hire a lawyer if I'm forced into it and if I think I can win the case in court....


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## huntnnut (Jul 15, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> The two paragraphs are conflicting with one another IMO.
> 
> In para one, they define vehicle to include your boat and say you can park it in your garage OR in your driveway.
> 
> ...




We'll see, but I really don't think so.....


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## Sargent (Jul 15, 2009)

Covenants and Restrictions are not law.

However, when you closed on your home, you signed a form saying you agree with the "state" of the property (covenants and restrictions are actually deed restrictions).  

So, by accepting the deed, you accepted the covenants.  

Therefore, you are in a civil agreement with the rest of the neighborhood and the neighborhood association that you will abide by the covenants.  Because of that, they do have the right (because you gave them permission) to fine you.

Covenants and restrictions have to be renewed every 20 years.  Most of them have automatic renewal clauses nowadays.  

If you want it changed, appeal to the board... or join the board and lead a campaign to get the covenants amended.


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## Wild Turkey (Jul 15, 2009)

Here's a good one to look into.
By Georgia law a HOA is only good for 20 years from date of inception. To continue a HOA every single member of the community must ratify a new one. If you dont want to be in the HOA when the new one starts then you cant use pool etc. anymore but dont have to go by the HOA rules.
How old is the HOA

On the other point, you are in violation after 12 hrs because the vehicle as defined in pp1 is not a licensed vehicle that can drive on the road.


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## huntnnut (Jul 15, 2009)

Sargent said:


> Covenants and Restrictions are not law.
> 
> However, when you closed on your home, you signed a form saying you agree with the "state" of the property (covenants and restrictions are actually deed restrictions).
> 
> ...




I agree with issue on the fine, but only if I'm found to be in violation of the covenants.  It appears to me that the board is misinterpreting the covenants.

I don't have time to be a board member but I may lead a campaign to get the covenants amended to allow boats in driveways and written in a way that is more clearly defined, if it's determined that it is needed.


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## huntnnut (Jul 15, 2009)

Wild Turkey said:


> Here's a good one to look into.
> By Georgia law a HOA is only good for 20 years from date of inception. To continue a HOA every single member of the community must ratify a new one. If you dont want to be in the HOA when the new one starts then you cant use pool etc. anymore but dont have to go by the HOA rules.
> How old is the HOA
> 
> On the other point, you are in violation after 12 hrs because the vehicle as defined in pp1 is not a licensed vehicle that can drive on the road.



The HOA is active and only 16 years old.

The boat is registered, sits on a licensed trailer and can be legally towed on any public road.


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## sinclair1 (Jul 15, 2009)

would it be ok with you if everybody just decided to do what they want?  If you win it will be a free for all in your subdivision. We had a home owner take the HOA to court and she won. Well now is do what you want because they are scared to get sued again. We have a few boats in the driveways and some RVs.  I mentioned this because now people want it back the way if was and wished it was tougher.


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## reylamb (Jul 15, 2009)

Whoever wrote these covenants really put themself in a bind in this one. 

In the first paragraph they define a boat as a vehicle.

In the first paragraph they also define parking areas as paved areas on the lot.

In the second paragraph they then state storing and then go on to say garage or other areas defined by the board.........which are of course defined in paragraph one as vehicles and paved areas on a lot.  Personally, I would go to the board meeting and talk to them about it.  I think they will have a very hard time enforcing this one since paragraph one allows what paragraph 2 attempts to prohibit.


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## ChiefOsceola (Jul 15, 2009)

Since "Community" is capitalized, is there any definition of the word in the contract?

The reason I ask is that perhaps an explanation of what is considered "Community" would help us understand paragraph #2 better.


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## FishingAddict (Jul 15, 2009)

I'm on an HOA board.  It's a great way to make enemies of people you don't even know! 

Sorry to hear about the inconvienace.

A couple things I can share.

1: If you are getting letters, someone in the hood does not like your boat there, and the ACC is getting complaints, which is causing the action of the letters and the fines.  Typically the ACC is the one that asks for your actions to change, but if it gets to the point of fines because you don't follow the requests, the Board has to enforce it.  The Board and the ACC are separate with no overlapping members, and the Board only gets their information of the situation from the ACC unless they take the time to do some research.


2: Make an appointment with the board to discuss the issue. Be as nice as possible, and try to find a solution for all rather than just saying "I want it my way all the way".  We have had folks that want the rules bent and try hard to please everyone, and it works well. We have others who have been defient and tried to bully us to do it exactly their way with no regard to the covenents and their niehboors, and because we are very careful about what we do and how it relates to the law, they don't get their way since there was no inbetween for them.  In other words, go into the meeting asking for all to find a suitable solution.

Keep in mind that when the are working with you on a solution, they have to find a solution that can be duplicated for the same problem later on. In other words, they can't just say "It's ok for you to have your boat there"- because then it will have to be ok for everyone to have their boat in the driveway.  Perhaps a privacy fence for you to park your boat in would be in order- that's what I do. And it's much cheaper and easier than legal action!

3: The covents you posted state that you are allowed to park your boat in the driveway BUT not the grass (that's what the first section states), but only for a time period of 12 hours (that's what the second section states).    

In other words, the first section defines where you can park your boat, and the second section defines how long you can park it there. It's as clear as day. You have no chance in court around them.  You need to go the Board and see if they can work with you.

4. I would be very careful about trying to fight it in court. 

If you sue a HOA that is very buttoned up and careful in their actions, you are going to just lose $1000s of dollars in legal fees-because the bottom line is that you signed a covenat agreement that looks says boats can't be in the driveway for more than 12 hours.  

For the covenets to be amended, it requires a 2/3s majority vote (at least in our bylaws, some are 1/2) by ALL members of the hood- not just the ones that turn in the votes- and you will have a VERY hard time getting boats in the driveway being approved unless everyone owns a boat in the hood.


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## huntnnut (Jul 15, 2009)

ChiefOsceola said:


> Since "Community" is capitalized, is there any definition of the word in the contract?
> 
> The reason I ask is that perhaps an explanation of what is considered "Community" would help us understand paragraph #2 better.




Yes, according to Exhibit "A"  The following words, when used in this declaration or in any supplementary Declaration (unless the context shall prohibit), shall have the following meanings:

"Community"  shall mean and refer to that certain real property and interests therein described in Exhibit "B", attached hereto, and (i) such additions thereto as may be made by Declarant by Supplementary Declaration of all or any portion of the real property described in Exhibit "C" and (ii) such additions thereto as may be made by the association by Supplementary Declaration of other real property.

Note: Exhibit "B" is a legal description of All that tract or parcel of land lying and being in Land Lots 27 and 52 of the 7th District of Gwinnett County, GA and being more particularly described as follows.  Note: The following decription appears to be the legal description of the entire property that the subdivision encompaasses.

Exhibit "C" is noted as -NONE- and is a blank page otherwise.


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## JustUs4All (Jul 15, 2009)

They got you after 12 hours, my man.  Make nice and see if you can work something out.  Your only chance to force the issue would be if the by-laws or the covenants are poorly written or if the board is not properly elected.  

My wife owns a home in a sub division with covenants.  They are so poorly written that they plainly state that a homeowner may not cut his own grass.  The intent of the section seemed to be that landscaping be professionally installed.  The covenants make all sorts of other rules also, but provide for no means of enforcement.  There is not a provision for fines for violations.  The Board would be required to bring legal action to enforce any rule.  
The neighborhood is also about 8 years old.  The covenants and by-laws provide that a board member must be elected to office by the votes of over half the members of the HOA, not by a majority of those voting.  Just over half the members voted in the very first election.  Since then there have not been over 25% participation in the voting except for one year the board wanted me to be treasurer.  I oversaw one years election and got one vote over the minimum by mailing out the ballots with one nominee for each office and providing a stamped self addressed return envelope.  That was the last legally constituted board in the neighborhood.    No directive that the current board gives is in any way enforceable.   We continue to pay dues so that the street lights will stay on.

The best way is to make nice and try to reach an agreement that will work for all.

Good Luck.


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## ChiefOsceola (Jul 15, 2009)

Yeah...it looks pretty cut and dry.  I was wondering if maybe "Community" pertained to public property with exceptions to private.  

I'm with FishingAddict.  Paragraph 1 details where it can be parked...but P.2 sets the time limit.

For the record...HOAs stink.  Proud of my country home.


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## Boudreaux (Jul 15, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> The two paragraphs are conflicting with one another IMO.
> 
> In para one, they define vehicle to include your boat and say you can park it in your garage OR in your driveway.
> 
> ...


 
I agree with the first statement.  However, the second paragraph says "a garage" on the "Community", like maybe there is an allowance for the HOA to build a boat storage facility on commonly owned property in the future, in which the boats must be garaged or in the designated area.  Doesn't say that a boat parked on a private driveway has to be moved in 12 hours.  Futher definition of the "Community" seems to only apply to common property, not private property.

 I served on my HOA's Board for about 8 years.  I'm no legal expert, but I can tell you that when we talked "Community", it was the real estate owned by the CIRA - the HOA.  

The HOA/Board had ZERO rights to any vehicles parked legally on a public street.  However, the Board never let that be known and often sent violation letters to boat owners who parked their boats on the street.  The streets were public, and not owned by the HOA, so we had ZERO authority for follow up. 

However, if a boat (or other unauthorized vehicle) were parked at the clubhouse, which is private property owned by the HOA, it would be towed.  If it were parked in the grass, HOA issued a warning and then a fine.

I think you have a good leg to stand on in that the covenants clearly state that you can park the boat in your driveway.  And I would take the position that the "Community" is the commonly owned property of the HOA, on which your boat is not parked.

I think you're golden as long as it's on YOUR driveway and not on commonly owned "Community" property which is clearly defined.

I know an excellent HOA lawyer if you need one.


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## huntnnut (Jul 15, 2009)

sinclair1 said:


> would it be ok with you if everybody just decided to do what they want?  If you win it will be a free for all in your subdivision. We had a home owner take the HOA to court and she won. Well now is do what you want because they are scared to get sued again. We have a few boats in the driveways and some RVs.  I mentioned this because now people want it back the way if was and wished it was tougher.



No, but I'm not going to let the HOA prevent me from doing what I have a legal right to do if it's something I want to do.  The problem with many of the HOA's is that they are not ran properly and often are out of touch with the rules and regulations of the County and the very covenants that they are attempting to uphold.  

I understand what the covenants are for but when you have a small community of moderately priced homes with no amenities it's difficult at best to uphold restrictive covenants especially when you have over half of the community delinquent on their annual dues.  As I understand it I'm one of about thirty families who pay their dues annually.  the other 50 families have liens on their homes for non-payment.  My home and my yard are well maintained but this is not the case throughout most of the subdivision.  You would think that the HOA board members would have more to worry about than my boat.  Also one of the new board members is in violation of the Gwinnett County Fence Code with a newly installed fence and is in violation of the covenants as well.


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## huntnnut (Jul 15, 2009)

Boudreaux said:


> I agree with this.  I served on my HOA's Board for about 8 years.  I'm no legal expert, but I can tell you that when we talked "Community", it was the real estate owned by the CIRA - the HOA.
> 
> The HOA/Board had ZERO rights to any vehicles parked legally on a public street.  However, the Board never let that be known and often sent violation letters to boat owners who parked their boats on the street.  The streets were public, and not owned by the HOA, so we had ZERO authority for follow up.
> 
> ...




Thanks!

 I may need a good one before it's over.....


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## Boudreaux (Jul 15, 2009)

huntnnut said:


> Also one of the new board members is in violation of the Gwinnett County Fence Code with a newly installed fence and is in violation of the covenants as well.


 
Well written covenants allow an individual member of the association to provide enforcement of the covenants if the board does not do so.

Of course, you'd probably have to sue to get the fence corrected.  I'd start with notifying the County of the violation.


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## huntnnut (Jul 15, 2009)

Boudreaux said:


> Well written covenants allow an individual member of the association to provide enforcement of the covenants if the board does not do so.
> 
> Of course, you'd probably have to sue to get the fence corrected.  I'd start with notifying the County of the violation.



I've notified the county....


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## sinclair1 (Jul 15, 2009)

huntnnut said:


> No, but I'm not going to let the HOA prevent me from doing what I have a legal right to do if it's something I want to do.  The problem with many of the HOA's is that they are not ran properly and often are out of touch with the rules and regulations of the County and the very covenants that they are attempting to uphold.
> 
> I understand what the covenants are for but when you have a small community of moderately priced homes with no amenities it's difficult at best to uphold restrictive covenants especially when you have over half of the community delinquent on their annual dues.  As I understand it I'm one of about thirty families who pay their dues annually.  the other 50 families have liens on their homes for non-payment.  My home and my yard are well maintained but this is not the case throughout most of the subdivision.  You would think that the HOA board members would have more to worry about than my boat.  Also one of the new board members is in violation of the Gwinnett County Fence Code with a newly installed fence and is in violation of the covenants as well.


I hear you loud and clear,I have a similar situation,I just was pointing out how people reacted in my subdivision after they found out the HOA would buckle to pressure.
I am sure your boat is probably not bad looking and clean but the next guy will argue that his 1963 cabin crusier should be able to park in the driveway along with his 1970 minnie winnie. Then your paying dues to live in the same situation as people who pay nothing.


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## FishingAddict (Jul 15, 2009)

Over half the homes have not paid up? Yipes.  Sounds like they have some work to do. Out of 400 homes in ours, only 8 or so are not paid up, and over half of the unpaid are houses that are in forclosure. 

Again, it may save you a whole lotta time and money to just build a fence and store it in back if you can.  Court can drain you of your time even if you win, and money if you lose.  And if half the homes are not paying, they may not have the money to pay your legal fees even if you do win- esp if only 30 homes are paying.

If the new board member has built a fence against the covenents, I would notify the ACC and demand action when/if you move your boat.


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## sinclair1 (Jul 15, 2009)

FishingAddict said:


> Over half the homes have not paid up? Yipes.  Sounds like they have some work to do. Out of 400 homes in ours, only 8 or so are not paid up, and over half of the unpaid are houses that are in forclosure.
> 
> Again, it may save you a whole lotta time and money to just build a fence and store it in back if you can.  Court can drain you of your time even if you win, and money if you lose.  And if half the homes are not paying, they may not have the money to pay your legal fees even if you do win- esp if only 30 homes are paying.
> 
> If the new board member has built a fence against the covenents, I would notify the ACC and demand action when/if you move your boat.


I am a ACC member and I turn my head when I see a new bassboat and wait on the homeowners to come to us.
Jet skis and ski boats get the boom lowered


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## huntnnut (Jul 15, 2009)

sinclair1 said:


> I hear you loud and clear,I have a similar situation,I just was pointing out how people reacted in my subdivision after they found out the HOA would buckle to pressure.
> I am sure your boat is probably not bad looking and clean but the next guy will argue that his 1963 cabin crusier should be able to park in the driveway along with his 1970 minnie winnie. Then your paying dues to live in the same situation as people who pay nothing.



Yea, my boat looks better than many of the vehicles parked in the driveways and along the roads in the subdivision.  Many of the vehicles parked in the roads are  parked there illegally and in violation of Gwinnett County Codes, but to my knowledge they haven't fined or attempted to fine any of them.

I don't generally concern myself over other folks property or actions on it unless it or they become unsightly and/or unruly.  When the grass gets to be 1 to 2 feet high and the place starts looking like a drug house, then I get concerned.

A boat in the driveway or even a mini winnie doesn't bother me.....


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## huntnnut (Jul 15, 2009)

FishingAddict said:


> Over half the homes have not paid up? Yipes.  Sounds like they have some work to do. Out of 400 homes in ours, only 8 or so are not paid up, and over half of the unpaid are houses that are in forclosure.
> 
> Again, it may save you a whole lotta time and money to just build a fence and store it in back if you can.  Court can drain you of your time even if you win, and money if you lose.  And if half the homes are not paying, they may not have the money to pay your legal fees even if you do win- esp if only 30 homes are paying.
> 
> If the new board member has built a fence against the covenents, I would notify the ACC and demand action when/if you move your boat.





The board members act as the ACC because they can't get hardly anyone to sit on the board or the ACC and by the boards actions, they obviously don't know what their doing.


It's a conspiracy....


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## huntnnut (Jul 15, 2009)

sinclair1 said:


> I am a ACC member and I turn my head when I see a new bassboat and wait on the homeowners to come to us.
> Jet skis and ski boats get the boom lowered


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## gtparts (Jul 15, 2009)

No shylock here, but it would seem that Para. 1 defines vehicles and where they may be parked. 

Para. 2 is more specific to the types of "vehicles" and the restrictions placed on the individual types,..... in particular to your situation, the time limitations for parking a boat in the community that is not shielded from view within a garage or behind a legally erected fence.

You might want to bounce this off a lawyer familiar with HOA practices in Gwin. 

The HOA has the right, granted by you, to access fines from you. The HOA can have the unpaid fines recorded as debts and have a lien placed against your property. You will pay the fine if you ever decide to sell your house.
I suspect that the expense of storing the boat is a factor in parking it at home. And security is a legitimate issue, along with convenience, as well.

It is my understanding that in Gwinnett, HOAs have the upper hand  IF their covenants are well constructed. My suggestion is to comply while you seek to have the rules changed. It looks better than taking an advesarial stand. Solicit the opinions of other boat owners, neighbors with utility trailers or campers, visible satellite dishes, yard statuary, owners of fences of the wrong color or material..... anyone who might take exception to existing covenants.  The original covenants were mostly used as a sales tool by the developer, but there is a tendency for the same components to be unpopular with a large segment of the community. People and things change in 16 years. You might be surprised to find that only one or two people really have a problem with your boat. 

If the HOA or covenants that pertain to boats are weak, you can always test them by ignoring the letters. They might just roll over.

In any event, good luck.


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## huntnnut (Jul 16, 2009)

gtparts said:


> No shylock here, but it would seem that Para. 1 defines vehicles and where they may be parked.
> 
> Para. 2 is more specific to the types of "vehicles" and the restrictions placed on the individual types,..... in particular to your situation, the time limitations for parking a boat in the community that is not shielded from view within a garage or behind a legally erected fence.
> 
> ...




Yea, I had a space rented in a boat storage facility for a year or two and it was just a royal pain in the you know what.  My boat has to much equipment on it to have to unload it each trip out and there is no way I'd leave all the equipment on it and leave it in a boat storage facility.  Plus I had to drive 15 to 30 minutes out of my way each trip just to pick it up or drop it off, many times when I was really just to tired or it was to late to fool with it.  Even with the rental storage I'd end up keeping it at home much of the time.

I've been having issues with the HOA now for probably 5 years or more with this boat and with the one I owned earlier and have generally just ignored them.  They just recently started an attempt to fine me which is when I decided it was time to get serious with them.

I contacted a lawyer yesterday and he is to read over my covenants and get back with me with his thoughts on the matter.

I honestly don't believe the HOA has a leg to stand on the way the covenants are written and I'm definitely not in violation of Gwinnett County Code.

I'll move if need be and hopefully a deadbeat homeowner will move in.

We'll see soon.


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## Roger T (Jul 16, 2009)

to my understanding hoa covenants are easy to disregard in the court system,and that only the people that has property touching yours has the ability to cause you grief. para 2 says   No boat, recreational vehicle, motor home, mobile home, or towed vehicle shall be temporarily kept or stored in the Community for any period in excess of twelve (12) hours unless kept in a garage or other area designated by the Board: vehicles parked in violation of this provision shall be considered a nuisance and may be removed from the Community.  based on this you are not in violation if you boat is parked in a garage, or on the drive way.  good luck


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## huntnnut (Jul 16, 2009)

Roger T said:


> to my understanding hoa covenants are easy to disregard in the court system,and that only the people that has property touching yours has the ability to cause you grief. para 2 says   No boat, recreational vehicle, motor home, mobile home, or towed vehicle shall be temporarily kept or stored in the Community for any period in excess of twelve (12) hours unless kept in a garage or other area designated by the Board: vehicles parked in violation of this provision shall be considered a nuisance and may be removed from the Community.  based on this you are not in violation if you boat is parked in a garage, or on the drive way.  good luck




I agree.......Thanks!


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## sinclair1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Goodluck, I will tell you with the amount of people we have that have not payed this year due to the economy, we would not incur the expense to pursue you if you lived in my sub.  I need to give myself a ticket for a pallet of stone I had delivered 3 weeks ago and its still in the driveway  I am trying to look at it as if we are lucky they are paying the mortgage vs getting picky about the details.


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## Wahoo Creek (Jul 16, 2009)

May have already been said, but this is how I read it:


_No boat, recreational vehicle, motor home, mobile home, or towed vehicle shall be temporarily kept or stored in the Community for any period in excess of twelve (12) hours unless kept in a garage or other area designated by the Board_

And that "other area" so designated is:

_driveways or other paved parking areas located on a lot. Parking in yards is prohibited_


As somebody already noted, you have conflicting provisions.  Generally speaking, such conflicts are construed against the drafter.  In this case, the drafter is arguably the HOA.  Consequenlty,  you ought to be okay, but that does not stop some fellow or the HOA from filing a lawsuit against you or keep the HOA from amending the rules to resolve the issue against you. 

Good luck.


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## jimbo4116 (Jul 16, 2009)

huntnnut said:


> I live in Lawrenceville which is in Gwinnett County and store my boat in my driveway, of which is fine according to Gwinnett County Code.  However, my HOA has been giving me some grief over it for several years now in terms of sending me letters informing me that I'm in violation of Gwinnett County Code and the subdivsion covenants and now all of a sudden they are attempting to fine me.
> 
> I have convinced them of late that I'm not in violation of the Gwinnett County Codes.  However they still say I'm in violation of the covenants although the way I interpret the covenants I'm not in violation.  It appears they are interpreting the covenants in the way they would like for them to read verses the true intent of the covenant.  Since I deal with high level contracts, I can usually understand any legal verbage used, however I'm not quite sure I fully understand the intent of the 2nd paragraph.  If anyone can help me clear up this issue it would be much appreciated.
> 
> ...



Seems to me the HOA designates the areas you can park in paragraph 1 and defines vehicles in paragraph 2.

If you will notice 18 wheelers are not allow even in designated areas.  

You driveway appears to be a designated area.

Get an attorney.


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## Hunt Em Up (Jul 17, 2009)

Look at para 2 again.. I think your in the RIGHT here.. It states

No boat, recreational vehicle, motor home, mobile home, or towed vehicle shall be temporarily kept or stored in the Community for any period in excess of twelve (12) hours unless kept in a garage or other area designated by the Board: vehicles parked in violation of this provision shall be considered a nuisance and may be removed from the Community. 

You are not storing it TEMPORARILY. You are storing it there permently until you use it.. Like your car its a means of transportation on state and federal roads as is your boat a means of transportation on state and federal waters. 

I say get a Lawyer to look at it.


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## jonkayak (Jul 17, 2009)

Not a lawyer here but have had a few dealings with our HOA. The HOA even has an attorney on retainer and he gets it wrong at least 51% of the time (money well spent  ). Look and see it the covenants are recorded with the county. I think they have to be on the official plate or attached in some legal manner and if they are not then they are not enforceable and your HOA has no leg to stand on. Also there has to be enforcement provisions spelled out clearly as to what action they can take against you in the covenants.


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## Dead Eye Eddy (Jul 17, 2009)

FishingAddict said:


> 3: The covents you posted state that you are allowed to park your boat in the driveway BUT not the grass (that's what the first section states), but only for a time period of 12 hours (that's what the second section states).
> 
> In other words, the first section defines where you can park your boat, and the second section defines how long you can park it there. It's as clear as day. You have no chance in court around them.  You need to go the Board and see if they can work with you.
> 
> ...



These are my thoughts on the situation as well.  This is exactly why I will never live in a subdivision with an HOA.  I have enough problems with the City of Buford trying to tell me what I can and can't put in my yard.

It may come down to what is cheaper, boat storage fees or HOA fines?  Either way, it's gonna cost you some dough to keep your boat.


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## huntnnut (Jul 17, 2009)

I've sent a copy of the covenants to an attorney for review.  Once I get his comments I'll fill you all in.

I realized this evening that we are suppose to have a pres, vp, secretary and treasurer plus 5 board members and at present we have a pres, treasurer and two new so called board members.  The pres and treasurer have exceeded their two year stint by several years and I'm not sure how the board members got elected.  The last meeting only had about 4 people in attendance and they were the pres, treasurer and the two new board members.  Hardly a quoram IMO.  Our HOA is a joke for the most part.


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## FishingAddict (Jul 18, 2009)

Roger T said:


> to my understanding hoa covenants are easy to disregard in the court system,and that only the people that has property touching yours has the ability to cause you grief. para 2 says   No boat, recreational vehicle, motor home, mobile home, or towed vehicle shall be temporarily kept or stored in the Community for any period in excess of twelve (12) hours unless kept in a garage or other area designated by the Board: vehicles parked in violation of this provision shall be considered a nuisance and may be removed from the Community.  based on this you are not in violation if you boat is parked in a garage, or on the drive way.  good luck




Don't bet on the part about covenets being easy to disregard.  I knew of a guy who lived in a hood where there was a covenet that said all houses must be apprasied over $500k.  Well, someone built one that was under. And the guy who lived next was a total...er can't say here...and him did not like him or his "cheap" $400,000 house.

So the guy takes it to the point where they actually tore the $400,000 house down to the ground because the owner could not find anyone to appraise it for over $500k.  

All from 'hood covenets...


The way I read the "other areas designated by the board" is that they have the right to make a designated parking area for boats if they so deem.  If it was "driveways" that they designated, it would specifically say next to "garages" that "driveways" are ok to park in for extended periods of time.

Good luck....be careful....hate to see you take a stick up the rear on this one!  The thing you have working for you is that the people who are on the board sound like unorginzed morons.  Make sure if you take it to court that you want to work with an attorney that will only collect if he wins, and collect from the loser. And then make sure he won't come back to you if they don't have the money to pay for it...because I serously doubt they do.


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## jonkayak (Jul 18, 2009)

FishingAddict said:


> And then make sure he won't come back to you if they don't have the money to pay for it...because I serously doubt they do.



This seems to be a popular way to win. Keep them tied up in court or at least the threat of a long drawn out costly legal battle.

Most covenants (not all) allow for you to go over the HOA board members and ask for a meeting so you can present your case to the whole subdivision (HOA) were it can be put to a vote by everyone.  

One more thing I vaguely remember from my R.E. Law class (like I said earlier I'm not a lawyer) is that when an HOA fails to enforce all the rules in the covenants they set a precedent that can be used against them.  Basically they need to enforce all the rules at all times and failure on there part to do so could be seen as future enforcement as bulling someone around.


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## sinclair1 (Jul 18, 2009)

FishingAddict said:


> Don't bet on the part about covenets being easy to disregard.  I knew of a guy who lived in a hood where there was a covenet that said all houses must be apprasied over $500k.  Well, someone built one that was under. And the guy who lived next was a total...er can't say here...and him did not like him or his "cheap" $400,000 house.
> 
> So the guy takes it to the point where they actually tore the $400,000 house down to the ground because the owner could not find anyone to appraise it for over $500k.
> 
> ...


I hope they have a bulldozier on retainer because there might be a few under 500k today. Hunt,If your HOA is like ours the biggest violators are the board members, You might be able to turn the tables while your paying your attorney fee, Thats how ours was sued and lost for failure to do their job on prior situations related to their personal violations.


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## Rays123 (Jul 18, 2009)

good luck with the homeowners association, im in a court case with them right now bc there trying to sue me(the builder) for not paying HOA fees when it specifically says the builder doesnt have to and none have to be payed for the house until it changes ownership which may be a while....... i think there up to 6000 in fines against me so far and the sad thing is they cant win


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jul 18, 2009)

huntnnut said:


> I agree in you accessment and I will hire a lawyer if I'm forced into it and if I think I can win the case in court....


 No, you can't. Covenants are binding and must be filed by the developer with the county and state prior to devepolpement for approval. If it were a covenant that was in violation of a constitutional right you might have a case, but this one is not it.

You will be fined and the fines will be turned into Liens upon your property once they acrue to a point that is substantial, if you do not pay them. Then the Lien will be renewed on your property annually, subject to the new amount of the acrued fines until you try to sell your house.

They have you by the short and curlies, might as well find a new home for the boat.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jul 18, 2009)

Rays123 said:


> good luck with the homeowners association, im in a court case with them right now bc there trying to sue me(the builder) for not paying HOA fees when it specifically says the builder doesnt have to and none have to be payed for the house until it changes ownership which may be a while....... i think there up to 6000 in fines against me so far and the sad thing is they cant win


 
Perhaps when the developer turned over the HOA to the homeowners he failed to turn over the Articles of Incorporation and bylaws of the incorporation. That is where the info that would release you from this obligation would be found. Thus rendering them in the dark about this info, and them operating in ignorance of the corporate documents.

Ask to see their Corporate Letter and latest Tax Filings. If they have failed to register with the state, then they are not legally a Homeowners association.


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## huntnnut (Jul 19, 2009)

scooter1 said:


> No, you can't. Covenants are binding and must be filed by the developer with the county and state prior to devepolpement for approval. If it were a covenant that was in violation of a constitutional right you might have a case, but this one is not it.
> 
> You will be fined and the fines will be turned into Liens upon your property once they acrue to a point that is substantial, if you do not pay them. Then the Lien will be renewed on your property annually, subject to the new amount of the acrued fines until you try to sell your house.
> 
> They have you by the short and curlies, might as well find a new home for the boat.




You seem to be pretty sure of yourself, are you a lawyer?


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## Roger T (Jul 19, 2009)

The term "vehicles," as used in this provision, shall include without limitation, motor homes, boats, trailers, motorcycles, minibikes, scooters, go-carts, trucks, campers, buses, vans, and automobiles. All vehicles shall be parked within garages, driveways or other paved parking areas located on a lot.

No boat, recreational vehicle, motor home, mobile home, or towed vehicle shall be temporarily kept or stored in the Community for any period in excess of twelve (12) hours unless kept in a garage or other area designated by the Board.
 it seems to me that they designated driveways in the the first paragraph. i would follow others advice & talk to a lawyer,good luck.


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## Backlasher82 (Jul 19, 2009)

sinclair1 said:


> I am a ACC member and I turn my head when I see a new bassboat and wait on the homeowners to come to us.
> Jet skis and ski boats get the boom lowered



And maybe in Huntnnut's case some self-important ACC member feels just the opposite and lowered the boom on his fishing boat. Things like this happen when some people get  drunk on power.

FWIW Huntnnut, the way I read it you're within your rights to park your boat in your driveway but not on the Community common property. I hope your lawyer comes to the same conclusion.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jul 19, 2009)

huntnnut said:


> You seem to be pretty sure of yourself, are you a lawyer?


 
HOA President, our Treasurer is an Attorney..


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## FishingAddict (Jul 20, 2009)

sinclair1 said:


> I hope they have a bulldozier on retainer because there might be a few under 500k today. Hunt,If your HOA is like ours the biggest violators are the board members, You might be able to turn the tables while your paying your attorney fee, Thats how ours was sued and lost for failure to do their job on prior situations related to their personal violations.




This was a long time ago, I'm sure by now they are worth around $1m even with depressed housing prices.


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## FishingAddict (Jul 20, 2009)

scooter1 said:


> HOA President, our Treasurer is an Attorney..



The only hope that I see that Huntnut has is if the board is unorginzed and they take them to court in a way that does not follow the rules set forth in the bylaws/covenents, which is quite possible given the reports.

That being said...not a risk I would take. I've never had to go to court over stuff but it sounds like a tremendous hassle and use of money.


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## quackertackr (Jul 23, 2009)

Quit trying to whine your way out of it. YOU signed the covenant agreement when you bought the house. YOU gave up your rights to anything in there when you signed it. That is part of the problem with the USA now, people like you want it one way but when something happens to them, it's not fair. Move your boat and abide by the agreement YOU signed. Anyone who moves into a subdivision with covenant gives up any right the HOA has in its covenants. First your boat in the driveway, next where you can fish then its going to be your guns.
SC


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