# Discipleship



## Bob2010 (Feb 19, 2017)

Ok folks. Want to hear what you guys think. My church and many of it's ministries have accountability policies.  I know accountability is important.  What does the bible really say about it though? Discipleship must be more than submission to authority (church leadership) It seems going back and picking apart ministries after the Holy Spirit has moved and his people have been obedient is counter productive.  Leads to a lack of unity and division.  Yet it still happens with every ministry.  Even sometimes before people have time to thank or worship the the Lord for his presence in a ministry. Is accountability really discipleship??? Just seems like a passion killer to me! Joy in the harvest? If Gods will was done than why go back and try to figure out where we went wrong? Why be concerned about having a number of people saved to report to our pastor? Were seeds not planted? Been many meetings with my Pastors and really looking at new ministry opportunities.  Not wanting to rebel or be disconnected. I am not looking to hear from people who stay away from church or organized religion here. I love my church. If one has to choose between obedience to the Lord over obedience to church leadership. Where does that leave us? Does a disciple have the right to judge a person's heart? The Pharisees kept judging Christ heart. They kept making more and more rules. Jesus would point to the intentions behind Gods laws. The living God stood in front of these guys and they couldn't even see it was God! Thats how it feels with my church leadership these days. Accountability, when helping hurts themes, and everyone wanting to look good. If God gets all the glory and his will was done. His people were obedient in the work they did for a ministry? Is the appropriate action not to just praise and worship the Lord? I don't want to be a mindless drone burried in the stress of obligations that come from submission to church leadership.  Is that the definition of accountability? I can reach more for Christ with passion, excitement,  and a desire to be obedient to the Lord. Do you reel a guy like me in before I cause problems? Or do you encourage me to remain passionate and obedient about our awesome God?


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## newnature (Feb 19, 2017)

When we say God’s knows are heart, we are normally thinking of sincerity, but sincerity doesn’t cut it. The reconciliation Paul’s talking about was accomplished by God. He designed it. He provided the means by which it could be accomplished. So by the very words of God, Paul was telling people their reconciliation with God came not by their abstention from wicked deeds or evil deeds or by their commitment to the performance of good deeds or by a new measure of forgiveness that they might be able to procure for themselves...given they’re suitable sorry of course and sufficiently sincere when they ask for it and staunchly committed to do the dos and stop doing the don’ts in the future. Not by any of those things. That’s what Paul is talking about when he told people that their reconciliation is of God. How did God accomplish that reconciliation...and all things are of God...not you at all, but of God who has already reconciled us to himself.  How...by Jesus and has given to us not the issue of finding a way to accomplish it or to keep ourselves reconciled to God. But what did he give to us...2 Corinthians 5:19.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 19, 2017)

Bob2010 said:


> Ok folks. Want to hear what you guys think. My church and many of it's ministries have accountability policies.  I know accountability is important.  What does the bible really say about it though? Discipleship must be more than submission to authority (church leadership) It seems going back and picking apart ministries after the Holy Spirit has moved and his people have been obedient is counter productive.  Leads to a lack of unity and division.  Yet it still happens with every ministry.  Even sometimes before people have time to thank or worship the the Lord for his presence in a ministry. Is accountability really discipleship??? Just seems like a passion killer to me! Joy in the harvest? If Gods will was done than why go back and try to figure out where we went wrong? Why be concerned about having a number of people saved to report to our pastor? Were seeds not planted? Been many meetings with my Pastors and really looking at new ministry opportunities.  Not wanting to rebel or be disconnected. I am not looking to hear from people who stay away from church or organized religion here. I love my church. If one has to choose between obedience to the Lord over obedience to church leadership. Where does that leave us? Does a disciple have the right to judge a person's heart? The Pharisees kept judging Christ heart. They kept making more and more rules. Jesus would point to the intentions behind Gods laws. The living God stood in front of these guys and they couldn't even see it was God! Thats how it feels with my church leadership these days. Accountability, when helping hurts themes, and everyone wanting to look good. If God gets all the glory and his will was done. His people were obedient in the work they did for a ministry? Is the appropriate action not to just praise and worship the Lord? I don't want to be a mindless drone burried in the stress of obligations that come from submission to church leadership.  Is that the definition of accountability? I can reach more for Christ with passion, excitement,  and a desire to be obedient to the Lord. Do you reel a guy like me in before I cause problems? Or do you encourage me to remain passionate and obedient about our awesome God?



Ya'll have a "Lost Soul" quota system?


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## Bob2010 (Feb 19, 2017)

Maybe so? Lol! Starts with how money is spent and leads to a salvation count. Kingdom  ROI. Even had a leader say that. The struggle is real! Love my church but they may get tired of dealing with me.


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## newnature (Feb 19, 2017)

Was God only partially satisfied with the payment Jesus made for sins? Or was God fully satisfied where the payment made by his son for the sins of the world are concerned? When you think of Propitiation, think of payment satisfaction, because propitiation means just that, full satisfaction. Not only did Jesus cry out: “It is finished” from the tree of crucifixion, meaning his death for sins, his payment for sins was being brought to a conclusion, he could make that statement because he had fully accomplished what he had set out to do. Of course, that doesn’t mean that the world Jesus redeemed will accept the Redeemer, or the truth of their redemption for that matter so they can be placed into the Savior, Heaven worthy, at that point. The key word expression in connection with Paul’s teaching on Redemption: It would be delivered through ransom; deliverance through a ransom price, 1 Timothy 2:6.


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## j_seph (May 23, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Ya'll have a "Lost Soul" quota system?


Let's hope not as one can not be saved until he becomes lost, and not until the Lord has dealt with them, when he is dealing with you then you have the choice to make, accept him or not. One cannot just say, well I think I will go get saved Wednesday nor a preacher tell someone to come on over to the church Wednesday and we will get you saved.

Before someone, anyone takes up position/job in the church they should pray on it, ask for the choice to be made as per Gods will. If the Lord doesn't tell you that you need to be in that position in the church then I would highly suggest one not to take it out of Gods will.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 11, 2017)

Most churches belong to an "association", such as the "Southern baptist association, each usually having branches per county. Before I go farther.... My pastor years ago, would do the strangest things. I would be leading a men's group which was going great. We really enjoyed the fellowship, accountability and bible study.  All at once, he would tell us to stop. What, why, then out of the blue, want us to pick up where we let off. Our wifes decided that during our time, they would meet at  my house, very informal, yet my pastor refused to allow it unless he placed his hand picked female teacher over the time. The wifes did not know this woman, nor wanted an intense study, just somewhere to go while the husbands were out. Time after time, I scratched my head over the things he did, which i blindly trusted. One day, I picked up a handbook, or yearly update published by the Southern baptist association. Then it became clear. Every time he stopped and started us, he got to count us as another short term bible 
 study. This man did absolutely nothing if it were not a line item on the stats chart. Each church had a list of short term ministry, long term, mens, womens, etc. 50+ items that became a score book of churches.  Another example, not one penny went to any good cause if it were not listed on the line item list of what other churches were doing. This socalled leader had one purpose in mind, and it was to look good and  build his resume. As time passed, my eyes became open to many things. Man of God was a nothing more than a politician. He now holds a high position in the largest church in our state, equipped with limos for the important people. It worked, he looked good on paper. I have total disgust for the man. So, your church could simply use this as a means not to overlook anything, or they could be trying to keep up with the surrounding churches in the area, or someone's building a resume. I could go on for days about this man, but I'll spare you.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 12, 2017)

Bob2010 said:


> Ok folks. Want to hear what you guys think. My church and many of it's ministries have accountability policies.  I know accountability is important.  What does the bible really say about it though? Discipleship must be more than submission to authority (church leadership) It seems going back and picking apart ministries after the Holy Spirit has moved and his people have been obedient is counter productive.  Leads to a lack of unity and division.  Yet it still happens with every ministry.  Even sometimes before people have time to thank or worship the the Lord for his presence in a ministry. Is accountability really discipleship??? Just seems like a passion killer to me! Joy in the harvest? If Gods will was done than why go back and try to figure out where we went wrong? Why be concerned about having a number of people saved to report to our pastor? Were seeds not planted? Been many meetings with my Pastors and really looking at new ministry opportunities.  Not wanting to rebel or be disconnected. I am not looking to hear from people who stay away from church or organized religion here. I love my church. If one has to choose between obedience to the Lord over obedience to church leadership. Where does that leave us? Does a disciple have the right to judge a person's heart? The Pharisees kept judging Christ heart. They kept making more and more rules. Jesus would point to the intentions behind Gods laws. The living God stood in front of these guys and they couldn't even see it was God! Thats how it feels with my church leadership these days. Accountability, when helping hurts themes, and everyone wanting to look good. If God gets all the glory and his will was done. His people were obedient in the work they did for a ministry? Is the appropriate action not to just praise and worship the Lord? I don't want to be a mindless drone burried in the stress of obligations that come from submission to church leadership.  Is that the definition of accountability? I can reach more for Christ with passion, excitement,  and a desire to be obedient to the Lord. Do you reel a guy like me in before I cause problems? Or do you encourage me to remain passionate and obedient about our awesome God?





> If one has to choose between obedience to the Lord over obedience to church leadership. Where does that leave us?



There is a problem.  First, make sure it's not with YOU.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 13, 2017)

Bob2010 said:


> Ok folks. Want to hear what you guys think. My church and many of it's ministries have accountability policies.  I know accountability is important.  What does the bible really say about it though? Discipleship must be more than submission to authority (church leadership) It seems going back and picking apart ministries after the Holy Spirit has moved and his people have been obedient is counter productive.  Leads to a lack of unity and division.  Yet it still happens with every ministry.  Even sometimes before people have time to thank or worship the the Lord for his presence in a ministry. Is accountability really discipleship??? Just seems like a passion killer to me! Joy in the harvest? If Gods will was done than why go back and try to figure out where we went wrong? Why be concerned about having a number of people saved to report to our pastor? Were seeds not planted? Been many meetings with my Pastors and really looking at new ministry opportunities.  Not wanting to rebel or be disconnected. I am not looking to hear from people who stay away from church or organized religion here. I love my church. If one has to choose between obedience to the Lord over obedience to church leadership. Where does that leave us? Does a disciple have the right to judge a person's heart? The Pharisees kept judging Christ heart. They kept making more and more rules. Jesus would point to the intentions behind Gods laws. The living God stood in front of these guys and they couldn't even see it was God! Thats how it feels with my church leadership these days. Accountability, when helping hurts themes, and everyone wanting to look good. If God gets all the glory and his will was done. His people were obedient in the work they did for a ministry? Is the appropriate action not to just praise and worship the Lord? I don't want to be a mindless drone burried in the stress of obligations that come from submission to church leadership.  Is that the definition of accountability? I can reach more for Christ with passion, excitement,  and a desire to be obedient to the Lord. Do you reel a guy like me in before I cause problems? Or do you encourage me to remain passionate and obedient about our awesome God?



Your's are all good questions. I would like to hear the ideas of church leaders( pastors and elders) on this.

I once was a visitor into a church where prophets spoke into the lives of its members as to ministries at the invitation of the pastor, yet the pastor was oblivious or wholly unwilling or unable to help his sheep in this regard following the fact. I'm not sure what it was or why in every case. I suspect part of it was finances and the other was the "purity" of the sheep and an assessment that simply some of the sheep although willing were not able. This latter point was somehow tied into accountability... and where the HS seemed to direct a sheep to press on the gas pedal, the HS was supposedly telling the pastor that the gas pedal pushing sheep was to push on the brake. 

In my case I have been after the church for close to 20 yrs as to organizing a specific ministry which according to my faith walk would be very beneficial in increasing the faith in " seekers"... or those people willing to take some time to systematically and formally study scripture for example.  My idea has been denied by the church leaders for 20 yrs. 

The reasons given ran from lack of resources to " this is not the way we do things". 

What I got running against me also is that according to our brother Paul, I should not be an elder and it is just as easy to dig up Paul for sermon as it is to deny a saint's HS driven thirst for a ministry. I make no judgement on this.

What I suspect also in my case ( I use this word suspect cautiously) is that some pastors are not out of the box people. They would not be accountable to bishops or conventions above them if those above them were out of the box and they are not going to entertain much out of the box HS razzmatazz from roan sheep and especially young lambs in their care. 

In my case I continue to wait on the Lord and His time. I suspect my Lord knows about in the box and out of the box saints. It does not discount the will of God for you that you should defer to church authority. Be patient with your leaders, pray for them.


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## j_seph (Jun 13, 2017)

1 John 4:1  Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.


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