# Y dna



## big lazer (Dec 30, 2015)

It would be very interesting to have the remains of Jesus and test his DNA.  I have been dabbling in genealogy for years and recently studying DNA.  If we only had a sample of hid, this whole religion thing would go down the drain quick.  We would most likely find millions of men walking today with his exact same Y-DNA.


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## welderguy (Dec 30, 2015)

big lazer said:


> It would be very interesting to have the remains of Jesus and test his DNA.  I have been dabbling in genealogy for years and recently studying DNA.  If we only had a sample of hid, this whole religion thing would go down the drain quick.  We would most likely find millions of men walking today with his exact same Y-DNA.



Ahh. But there's no trace of His body on this earth.

He is risen and ascended into heaven and is sat down at the Father's right hand ; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.


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## bullethead (Dec 30, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Ahh. But there's no trace of His body on this earth.
> 
> He is risen and ascended into heaven and is sat down at the Father's right hand ; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.


I am 46yrs old, how old are you Welder?


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## welderguy (Dec 31, 2015)

bullethead said:


> I am 46yrs old, how old are you Welder?



Just turned 48...Why is this relevant?


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## bullethead (Dec 31, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Just turned 48...Why is this relevant?


Curiosity got the best of me.


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## Israel (Dec 31, 2015)

big lazer said:


> It would be very interesting to have the remains of Jesus and test his DNA.  I have been dabbling in genealogy for years and recently studying DNA.  If we only had a sample of hid, this whole religion thing would go down the drain quick.  We would most likely find millions of men walking today with his exact same Y-DNA.


Dig at Golgotha, the place of the skull. Dig till you find the blood there.


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## welderguy (Dec 31, 2015)

bullethead said:


> Curiosity got the best of me.



What do you do for a living? I'm a welder,obviously.


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## bullethead (Dec 31, 2015)

welderguy said:


> What do you do for a living? I'm a welder,obviously.


Barber


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## welderguy (Dec 31, 2015)

My brother in law is a barber. I guess you meet a lot of different types of folks in your line of work,huh? And have some interesting conversations I bet.


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## bullethead (Dec 31, 2015)

welderguy said:


> My brother in law is a barber. I guess you meet a lot of different types of folks in your line of work,huh? And have some interesting conversations I bet.


Every day all the worlds problems are solved in barber shops, problem is that nobody outside of the shops hears it! 
Lololol


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## welderguy (Dec 31, 2015)

bullethead said:


> Every day all the worlds problems are solved in barber shops, problem is that nobody outside of the shops hears it!
> Lololol



Yeah.When I was a boy,I loved to go down to the barber shop with daddy and listen to the old timers talk...good times.


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## Asath (Jan 2, 2016)

Hang on a second – unless I got the story wrong, if this Jesus fella actually existed, and actually was the product of this God fella cuckolding Joseph and impregnating his virgin wife, Mary, behind his back, which just seems wrong on so very many levels . . .  but anyway, if we pretend to buy into all of that, and allow as how this resulting Jesus is the spawn of God himself, wouldn’t it be the ultimate heresy to dare look into the DNA of GOD?  Y’know, these stinking empiricists just can’t leave anything alone, can they?   Do you dare to suggest that GOD has DNA?  That HE, Himself, contained the basic building block of replication?  Do you suggest that the Creator had a need to avail himself of the means of Creation?  And do you have the simple hubris to seek the DNA of GOD HIMSELF?  Surely you will burn, just for having the thought!  (If you find it, let us know – the CIA has been looking for that since the day they were chartered, and our President seems pretty sure that he already has it, so you’d best hurry up – if there actually is a God gene we really need to know.  Please tell us that this DNA trait, like all else that is right and pure and irrefutably true isn’t actually contained only by Democrats . . .  Time is short – Hillary looms . . . )


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## welderguy (Jan 2, 2016)

Have yall seen this? 

http://www.photoofjesus.com/

If it's truly the linen cloth that Jesus was buried in, couldn't they get DNA samples from it?


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 2, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Have yall seen this?
> 
> http://www.photoofjesus.com/
> 
> If it's truly the linen cloth that Jesus was buried in, couldn't they get DNA samples from it?



I hope that's not real because that looks like Hulk Hogan!

God was also the Father/Creator  of Adam. Wouldn't Adam and Jesus have Y-DNA? Wouldn't Eve have paternal DNA? Why would God venture from science in any of his creation? His plan was that Jesus would be a man.

Jesus was 100% man with God being his Father. Of course he has Y-DNA. It was just created by God. It was his spirit that was from God or his Father's spirit was upon him.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 2, 2016)

Interesting article stating Jesus had the same DNA as Adam. Jesus was the second Adam.

"just as Adam embodied all the genetic variations of humanity, Jesus had to do the same. He had to represent all of the genetic variation so that all of us would be represented in the “Body of Christ” and so that His death and resurrection would apply to all of humanity."

http://www.genesisandgenetics.org/2011/11/05/jesus-dna/


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## welderguy (Jan 2, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> I hope that's not real because that looks like Hulk Hogan!



I'm with you Art. That image looks too much like a man that had never had his beard pulled out by the roots or beaten into a pulp.
Isaiah 52:14 tells me His visage was marred more than any man.It was so bad Isaiah 53 says we hid as it were our faces from Him.He had no comeliness that we should desire Him.


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## big lazer (Jan 3, 2016)

The most dominant y DNA from that part of the world is J or some variation of it.  I would bet my hat if, if, we had Mr. Jesus bones, we would find he too carried J DNA and he is either a hoax or there is a lot of descendants of  God walking around today.


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## big lazer (Jan 3, 2016)

By the way, Y DNA passes intact from father to son forever, there will be slight modifications over 10's of thousands of years. So over just 2000, it should be exactly intact, proving earthly origin and a common male parent with many men today.


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## bullethead (Jan 11, 2016)

A little off topic but this link is interesting pertaining to how singular cells developed into multi celled. http://www.businessinsider.com/animals-evolving-now-2015-2


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## jmharris23 (Jan 19, 2016)

Asath said:


> Hang on a second – unless I got the story wrong, *if this Jesus fella actually existed*, and actually was the product of this God fella cuckolding Joseph and impregnating his virgin wife, Mary, behind his back, which just seems wrong on so very many levels . . .  but anyway, if we pretend to buy into all of that, and allow as how this resulting Jesus is the spawn of God himself, wouldn’t it be the ultimate heresy to dare look into the DNA of GOD?  Y’know, these stinking empiricists just can’t leave anything alone, can they?   Do you dare to suggest that GOD has DNA?  That HE, Himself, contained the basic building block of replication?  Do you suggest that the Creator had a need to avail himself of the means of Creation?  And do you have the simple hubris to seek the DNA of GOD HIMSELF?  Surely you will burn, just for having the thought!  (If you find it, let us know – the CIA has been looking for that since the day they were chartered, and our President seems pretty sure that he already has it, so you’d best hurry up – if there actually is a God gene we really need to know.  Please tell us that this DNA trait, like all else that is right and pure and irrefutably true isn’t actually contained only by Democrats . . .  Time is short – Hillary looms . . . )




So do you not even believe in a historical Jesus?


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## EverGreen1231 (Jan 19, 2016)

jmharris23 said:


> So do you not even believe in a historical Jesus?



My guess would be no. So much for being well read.


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## bullethead (Jan 19, 2016)

EverGreen1231 said:


> My guess would be no. So much for being well read.


Outside of the Bible,  where would one read about Yeshua, I mean Joshua, no wait, Jesus?


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## dawg2 (Jan 19, 2016)

big lazer said:


> It would be very interesting to have the remains of Jesus and test his DNA.  I have been dabbling in genealogy for years and recently studying DNA.  If we only had a sample of hid, this whole religion thing would go down the drain quick.  We would most likely find millions of men walking today with his exact same Y-DNA.



Why would it go down the drain?  Overly simplistic, sophomoric comment.

Think about it.  If Adam was created by God, then Adam would have a "God gene."  Therefore, so would Jesus...and so would all of man, including Eve who came "from" Adam.


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## pnome (Jan 19, 2016)

Pretty sure it will look just like this....


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## dawg2 (Jan 19, 2016)

pnome said:


> Pretty sure it will look just like this....



There's a blinding flash of the obvious


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## Israel (Jan 19, 2016)

dawg2 said:


> Why would it go down the drain?  Overly simplistic, sophomoric comment.
> 
> Think about it.  If Adam was created by God, then Adam would have a "God gene."  Therefore, so would Jesus...and so would all of man, including Eve who came "from" Adam.



Yes. Wonderful!
There is a familiarity that breeds contempt.
There is a knowing that sees in awe.


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## 660griz (Jan 22, 2016)

dawg2 said:


> Why would it go down the drain?  Overly simplistic, sophomoric comment.
> 
> Think about it.  If Adam was created by God, then Adam would have a "God gene."  Therefore, so would Jesus...and so would all of man, including Eve who came "from" Adam.



You think about it.
And the Lord God formed man of the *dust* of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

God's "genes" are in the soil too?


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## Israel (Jan 22, 2016)

yes. He formed man out of the elements found in earth.


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## 660griz (Jan 25, 2016)

Israel said:


> yes. He formed man out of the elements found in earth.



So, just to be clear, we are discussing God DNA? Seriously? A metaphysical being with DNA?


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 29, 2016)

660griz said:


> So, just to be clear, we are discussing God DNA? Seriously? A metaphysical being with DNA?



God liked to dabble in science. He liked to tinker. His first Adam wasn't too successful. Now his second Adam was a 100% success.


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## bullethead (Jan 29, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> God liked to dabble in science. He liked to tinker. His first Adam wasn't too successful. Now his second Adam was a 100% success.


So your God is fallible?  He is all knowing yet didn't know his first attempt was going to fail? He knew it would fail yet continued to watch his experiment play out at the cost of millions of lives?
And you worship this thing?


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 29, 2016)

bullethead said:


> So your God is fallible?  He is all knowing yet didn't know his first attempt was going to fail? He knew it would fail yet continued to watch his experiment play out at the cost of millions of lives?
> And you worship this thing?



Fallible is such a strong word. I think he got the DNA right but might not have considered the implications of what this man might become.
It's kinda like taking on a wife. We want her to be a free thinker as long as she thinks like us.

After much thought it would appear God did know Adam would fail. It had to be part of his plan. To make a man doomed for failure and a plan to make a second Adam to replace the first Adam.
Both Adam's had the same DNA. We won't know exactly how it all plays out until we see the second Adam and become like him. 
Eventually we will see the second Adam. Then we will know.


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## Israel (Jan 30, 2016)

660griz said:


> So, just to be clear, we are discussing God DNA? Seriously? A metaphysical being with DNA?



The Being in whom all life is, and through whom all forms of life are given being. To the inclusion of those with material existence.


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## Israel (Jan 30, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Fallible is such a strong word. I think he got the DNA right but might not have considered the implications of what this man might become.
> It's kinda like taking on a wife. We want her to be a free thinker as long as she thinks like us.
> 
> After much thought it would appear God did know Adam would fail. It had to be part of his plan. To make a man doomed for failure and a plan to make a second Adam to replace the first Adam.
> ...


What if in the growth of being, in the being "the likeness (and image) of God" that time before fullness of growth takes place is not a "failure" but an inseparable component of the growth?
If in the necessity of creation of a thing there can be a time when "it is not" (yet) to a time when "it is", the time of its not being all...yet...is just as necessary to its being in its fullness?
A clockmaker would understand, a painter, a poet, a woodworker, a sculptor. Is it "there" to be? Yes, but is it all till the case is polished, the portrait signed, etc?
A good and perfect start will lead to a good and perfect finish. But only the maker knows when his work is done.

(an aside) I have observed some of the work of painters over the years, and there comes a point (in my estimation) when the likeness is achieved, a very excellent work is prepared...only for me to find out the artist is not quite done...there are more subtle shadows to be added, or a faint highlight or two...where I would have marveled at a less than finished work (for to me to get close to that rendition would be exquisitely satisfactory)...and yet to the skilled master...there is more to be finished. I think you get what I am saying.
Material...canvas, pallette, assortments of brushes, and all the progress along the way are good, indeed, very good...but it is only the finished work that is decided by the artist to either be perfect...or still needing addition (or subtraction).


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## bullethead (Jan 30, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Fallible is such a strong word. I think he got the DNA right but might not have considered the implications of what this man might become.
> It's kinda like taking on a wife. We want her to be a free thinker as long as she thinks like us.
> 
> After much thought it would appear God did know Adam would fail. It had to be part of his plan. To make a man doomed for failure and a plan to make a second Adam to replace the first Adam.
> ...


Excuses are a much stronger word.
You are made to think and speak for an imaginary character that exists nowhere but in religious stories.
It's actions absolutely do not mesh with the claims.
All powerful, yet cannot defeat "evil".
All knowing,  yet by your own version of an excuse has him tinkering because he messed up.
He is all loving, time after time he kills his own children because of his "tinkering".

And we can go on and on and like we have pointed out hundreds of times in posts about the direct  contradictions WITH piles of evidence to back it up, and still all the defense has is individual guesses and excuses because the claims do not match the facts.


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## Israel (Jan 30, 2016)

bullethead said:


> Excuses are a much stronger word.
> You are made to think and speak for an imaginary character that exists nowhere but in religious stories.
> It's actions absolutely do not mesh with the claims.
> All powerful, yet cannot defeat "evil".
> ...


That the exposure and defeat of evil may not be satisfactory to your accounting is nothing to be considered.
You appear to speak as one who would either be a "better god" or recommend one that would include the denial of the God and Father of the Lord, Jesus Christ.
Do you speak of your own notion of evil...or simply hope to use a synthesis of terms discovered in what you deride in service to its derision?
What would you do...about the "evil"? Or would you, are you, one who would say it does not exist in your lexicon?
Nor understanding.


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## bullethead (Jan 30, 2016)

Israel said:


> That the exposure and defeat of evil may not be satisfactory to your accounting is nothing to be considered.
> You appear to speak as one who would either be a "better god" or recommend one that would include the denial of the God and Father of the Lord, Jesus Christ.
> Do you speak of your own notion of evil...or simply hope to use a synthesis of terms discovered in what you deride in service to its derision?
> What would you do...about the "evil"? Or would you, are you, one who would say it does not exist in your lexicon?
> Nor understanding.


I am basing (for this conversation) my version of evil exactly as the same as the good vs evil as portrayed in the bible.
God vs Satan , the whole rebellion in heaven, the tugging at the souls, none of it foreseen and if it was the carnage is considered collateral damage.
Basically for every claim about YOUR version of a God there is a direct example that refutes that claim.
You only seem to refute it when you introduce the "thougts" or "greater plans" of being that you have never seen, never talked to, have never known, and then proceed to speak for it.
Anything is possible in the world of illusion.
Reality is where we live.


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## Israel (Jan 30, 2016)

bullethead said:


> I am basing (for this conversation) my version of evil exactly as the same as the good vs evil as portrayed in the bible.
> God vs Satan , the whole rebellion in heaven, the tugging at the souls, none of it foreseen and if it was the carnage is considered collateral damage.
> Basically for every claim about YOUR version of a God there is a direct example that refutes that claim.
> You only seem to refute it when you introduce the "thougts" or "greater plans" of being that you have never seen, never talked to, have never known, and then proceed to speak for it.
> ...



What informs your mind as to what is "real" may not be all there is; I can certainly concede that is the case with mine. (And this concession is not a matter of my piety, nor anything other than what it is...you may find "majority rules" as to reality is a very poor metric, as also I have found)


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## bullethead (Jan 30, 2016)

Israel said:


> What informs your mind as to what is "real" may not be all there is; I can certainly concede that is the case with mine. (And this concession is not a matter of my piety, nor anything other than what it is...you may find "majority rules" as to reality is a very poor metric, as also I have found)


All I have ever asked of you is proof of what you claim, or what you suggest. When you intriduce "may"  "could"  or insert unknown and unlimited  possibilities it does not make your argument more solid. It just clouds the waters even more because you dismiss the what is for what could be if the facts change. The queen would be king "if"...... but the facts are she is still queen.
We have the text in the bible and the claims of believers. The facts do not match either.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 30, 2016)

bullethead said:


> Excuses are a much stronger word.
> You are made to think and speak for an imaginary character that exists nowhere but in religious stories.
> It's actions absolutely do not mesh with the claims.
> All powerful, yet cannot defeat "evil".
> ...



Would you say nature is a better god than God? Why in nature are children born with defective(by our standards) DNA? Why does the earth's powerful storms and earthquakes kill? Why is our fellow man evil?
Why are some men good? 
Why does the rain fall on the good and the bad?

Without evil there is no good. Could you imagine what that would do to the movie industry? Imagine a cowboy movie where they all wear white hats.


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## bullethead (Jan 30, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Would you say nature is a better god than God? Why in nature are children born with defective(by our standards) DNA? Why does the earth's powerful storms and earthquakes kill? Why is our fellow man evil?
> Why are some men good?
> Why does the rain fall on the good and the bad?
> 
> Without evil there is no good. Could you imagine what that would do to the movie industry? Imagine a cowboy movie where they all wear white hats.


All those things are reality.
Nothing is perfect and you just gave examples to back it up.
Trying to insert a perfect God there and then making excuses why he is a no show or why even he screwed up IS the problem.


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## Israel (Jan 31, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Would you say nature is a better god than God? Why in nature are children born with defective(by our standards) DNA? Why does the earth's powerful storms and earthquakes kill? Why is our fellow man evil?
> Why are some men good?
> Why does the rain fall on the good and the bad?
> 
> Without evil there is no good. Could you imagine what that would do to the movie industry? Imagine a cowboy movie where they all wear white hats.



Is that true? Good is dependent upon evil for its being?


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## bullethead (Jan 31, 2016)

Israel said:


> Is that true? Good is dependent upon evil for its being?


Are you now talking about your perceived version of good? Your version dependent of whatever twist of reality you choose? Or should Art use whatever twist that really has nothing to do with the conversation at hand and insert a scenario that is so remote that it can only be considered absurd?


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 31, 2016)

bullethead said:


> Are you now talking about your perceived version of good? Your version dependent of whatever twist of reality you choose? Or should Art use whatever twist that really has nothing to do with the conversation at hand and insert a scenario that is so remote that it can only be considered absurd?



It's not that much of a twist if you believe God was the Great Architect of the universe and used science in his creation.
God gave Adam his DNA, therefore the 2nd Adam had to have DNA from God also. It would seen absurd to a non-believer.


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## bullethead (Jan 31, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> It's not that much of a twist if you believe God was the Great Architect of the universe and used science in his creation.
> God gave Adam his DNA, therefore the 2nd Adam had to have DNA from God also. It would seen absurd to a non-believer.


I was replying to Israel questioning your good/evil post.
I was making the point that if you answer like he does by changing the specifics within the conversation to outlandish possibilities that you can make anything possible and avoid answering the question at hand.


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## bullethead (Jan 31, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> It's not that much of a twist if you believe God was the Great Architect of the universe and used science in his creation.
> God gave Adam his DNA, therefore the 2nd Adam had to have DNA from God also. It would seen absurd to a non-believer.


And you answered like Israel would by replying that "its not that much of a twist IF.."
We then would like you, and Izzy, and everyone else to expound upon that scenario and make the jump from "if" to "is". 
Why doesn't every living person, plant, animal, fish....literally EVERYTHING that lives have your gods DNA in it? There should be common DNA in all that traces back to the same one singular spirit source and especially one period of 6 days where everything was created at the same time.
Why do you think that is not the case?
Or why do you think that is the case despite the facts that show dna traces back much much much farther than the time line in the bible allows?


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## Israel (Feb 1, 2016)

bullethead said:


> Are you now talking about your perceived version of good? Your version dependent of whatever twist of reality you choose? Or should Art use whatever twist that really has nothing to do with the conversation at hand and insert a scenario that is so remote that it can only be considered absurd?



I am persuaded goodness is, and that goodness is found in God through the revelation of Jesus Christ.
You are also right in seeming to imply my being subject to change, relative to that goodness. 
What you might call a twisting, with obvious implications of either a lack of integrity in choosing to adapt my notion somehow to my advantage (of which I know I have been guilty) or just some herculean effort to stuff all of reality into a box I am making up as I go along...well, you'd have to tell me if I am understanding you correctly. 
It could, I guess, to you, be one, or the other, both, or more I haven't mentioned.
That I am guilty of as many inconsistencies you could ever care to mention (and still, I believe fall so far short of being able to fully enumerate) does not change, in any way, this persuasion of good.
There was a day, perhaps not unlike today, when my great granddaughter lay on a ventilator unconscious, and a time, no doubt when envisioning that prior to that day would have seemed very less than good. I probably, if considering that, being shown that, would have said "Oh no what a bad day is coming".
But having lived through the day prior, in which she was transported without breathing, her bleeding of such magnitude that the best man could tell me was (by a surgeon with downcast eyes) "we just don't know..."...well to come to that next day where she persisted "here"...yes, what once I may have thought an evil day was quite welcome. She lived, and it was quite sufficient to that day. 
Do you understand the nature of change? How one thing, even appearing as itself is, in the moment it is chosen to be observed not even the same in perception as when the decision to observe is made?
Rightly you might ask then "how can you believe there is something then, or someone, unchanging?" if all else, at every instant, is subject to it?
Yes, precisely.


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## bullethead (Feb 1, 2016)

Israel said:


> I am persuaded goodness is, and that goodness is found in God through the revelation of Jesus Christ.
> You are also right in seeming to imply my being subject to change, relative to that goodness.
> What you might call a twisting, with obvious implications of either a lack of integrity in choosing to adapt my notion somehow to my advantage (of which I know I have been guilty) or just some herculean effort to stuff all of reality into a box I am making up as I go along...well, you'd have to tell me if I am understanding you correctly.
> It could, I guess, to you, be one, or the other, both, or more I haven't mentioned.
> ...


First foremost and above all else, I am glad your great granddaughter took a turn for the better and I sincerely hope she is doing well today.

As far as how the story ties in to what we previously talked about is not at all the same. What you described is reality. Life constantly teetering on the verge of death. Every day is a struggle on numerous levels. 
What you tried to present before all this was an alternate set of scenarios that goes on with different outcomes and I/we are stuck in one that seems to be true yet MAY not be true. You switch the possibilities of what could be instead of dealing with what is.
Getting back to the topic at hand: bottom line is the claims within the book and the excuses made by the believers just do not add up with the facts. Sure they would or could "IF" something "MAY" change or "IF" something was "DIFFERENT" but for 6000 years the only things that change are the way the believers have to come up with new and widely varying excuses on how to try to come up with reasons on how and why the stories in the bible do not add up to the God they portray.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 1, 2016)

bullethead said:


> And you answered like Israel would by replying that "its not that much of a twist IF.."
> We then would like you, and Izzy, and everyone else to expound upon that scenario and make the jump from "if" to "is".
> Why doesn't every living person, plant, animal, fish....literally EVERYTHING that lives have your gods DNA in it? There should be common DNA in all that traces back to the same one singular spirit source and especially one period of 6 days where everything was created at the same time.
> Why do you think that is not the case?
> Or why do you think that is the case despite the facts that show dna traces back much much much farther than the time line in the bible allows?



Why would my God, the Great Scientist use fish DNA to make humans?
I believe in evolution instead of a 6 day creation.


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## bullethead (Feb 2, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why would my God, the Great Scientist use fish DNA to make humans?
> I believe in evolution instead of a 6 day creation.


I would suggest doing a very quick search on just how far human dna can be traced back, and to what else besides human beings it traces back to, and you will see why your God had nothing to do with it.

If you believe in evolution instead of 6 day creation where does Adam and his DNA trace back to?


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 2, 2016)

bullethead said:


> I would suggest doing a very quick search on just how far human dna can be traced back, and to what else besides human beings it traces back to, and you will see why your God had nothing to do with it.
> 
> If you believe in evolution instead of 6 day creation where does Adam and his DNA trace back to?



I'm not sure how the origin of life and/or DNA discredits the Great Scientist even if it does originate way back. 
The Great Scientist just got the ball rolling "way back." He put some DNA in a puddle of mud.(wet dust)
The rest is history. Adam came later, way later.


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## bullethead (Feb 3, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm not sure how the origin of life and/or DNA discredits the Great Scientist even if it does originate way back.
> The Great Scientist just got the ball rolling "way back." He put some DNA in a puddle of mud.(wet dust)
> The rest is history. Adam came later, way later.


It differs because you claim your gods DNA is in Adam. Your book claims Adam was created by your God out of dust. You use your book as the most accurate guide to worldly understanding until it just doesn't make sense(and I am glad that you see much of what doesn't make sense),  but then you just insert the information that makes sense without holding the rest of the untruths accountable. 
Example being: you know Adam wasn't the first human because evolution evidence blows that argument out of the water, but you still carry on the Adam/God dna conversation according to biblical story despite even you not believing it. You will argue that the Bible is the unfallible word of God and then change what you need to so it makes sense to you.
The good thing is that I did the same thing for a few years until I was out of excuses.


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## Gobbler Down (Feb 4, 2016)

Wore my "Jesus is coming..quick!!!....look busy!" T-shirt to a VA appointment in Birmingham today.  If thoughts were daggers, you'd be able to see through me this evening.  Seems as though freedom of non-religion isn't as welcome when exposed for all to see. I spent a year in Egypt and Israel as a military pilot and after all of my travels using the bible as a tour book- I came away quite convinced that Christopher Hitchens is my jesus.


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## ambush80 (Feb 4, 2016)

Gobbler Down said:


> Wore my "Jesus is coming..quick!!!....look busy!" T-shirt to a VA appointment in Birmingham today.  If thoughts were daggers, you'd be able to see through me this evening.  Seems as though freedom of non-religion isn't as welcome when exposed for all to see. I spent a year in Egypt and Israel as a military pilot and after all of my travels using the bible as a tour book- I came away quite convinced that Christopher Hitchens is my jesus.



It will take courageous people like yourself to keep getting the message out "You are not alone".  Maybe there are no atheists in foxholes (yes there are) but it looks like there are some in cockpits.

Thanks for your service.  Over there, too.


----------



## welderguy (Feb 5, 2016)

Gobbler Down said:


> Wore my "Jesus is coming..quick!!!....look busy!" T-shirt to a VA appointment in Birmingham today.  If thoughts were daggers, you'd be able to see through me this evening.  Seems as though freedom of non-religion isn't as welcome when exposed for all to see. I spent a year in Egypt and Israel as a military pilot and after all of my travels using the bible as a tour book- I came away quite convinced that Christopher Hitchens is my jesus.



I also would like to thank you for your service to protect our country.I hope God will reward you greatly in ways you cannot imagine.


----------



## 660griz (Feb 5, 2016)

Gobbler Down said:


> - I came away quite convinced that Christopher Hitchens is my jesus.



Amen!


----------



## Gobbler Down (Feb 5, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I also would like to thank you for your service to protect our country.I hope God will reward you greatly in ways you cannot imagine.



Thank you...spent a wonderful 28 years on active duty.  
As for the rewards, ask him to forego any undo attention on me and pay it forward- by curing cancer in the three year old boy down the road, or take into his ever watchful kingdom the priests and ministers that see children as objects of desire.  If the omnipotent can watch us 24/7 and hold us acountable for even our thought...doing the previous should be a piece of holy cake. That would be a miracle that could easily change my mind and heart!  Visualize Whirled Peas


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 5, 2016)

Gobbler Down said:


> I came away quite convinced that Christopher Hitchens is my jesus.



Your Jesus is dead.





Wait for it ...


----------



## 660griz (Feb 5, 2016)

centerpin fan said:


> Your Jesus is dead.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Aren't they all. There.


----------



## welderguy (Feb 5, 2016)

Gobbler Down said:


> Thank you...spent a wonderful 28 years on active duty.
> As for the rewards, ask him to forego any undo attention on me and pay it forward- by curing cancer in the three year old boy down the road, or take into his ever watchful kingdom the priests and ministers that see children as objects of desire.  If the omnipotent can watch us 24/7 and hold us acountable for even our thought...doing the previous should be a piece of holy cake. That would be a miracle that could easily change my mind and heart!  Visualize Whirled Peas



Those things you are requesting are temporal. I mostly had in mind rewards more eternal in nature. But I like the way you think,as far as the little boy's wellbeing and the religious corruption erradication and all.


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## bullethead (Feb 7, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Those things you are requesting are temporal. I mostly had in mind rewards more eternal in nature. But I like the way you think,as far as the little boy's wellbeing and the religious corruption erradication and all.


Let me understand you correctly, you are OK with children suffering from horrible diseases now on Earth because you are able to convince yourself that they will not suffer later?


----------



## welderguy (Feb 7, 2016)

bullethead said:


> Let me understand you correctly, you are OK with children suffering from horrible diseases now on Earth because you are able to convince yourself that they will not suffer later?



It depends on your definition of "OK". If you mean I like it,then no. But if you mean I'm looking past the sufferings of this life to the joys and glory of the next,then yes.


----------



## bullethead (Feb 7, 2016)

welderguy said:


> It depends on your definition of "OK". If you mean I like it,then no. But if you mean I'm looking past the sufferings of this life to the joys and glory of the next,then yes.


I mean OK as in you have convinced yourself that their suffering now is a small price to pay for their eternal joys later even though you cannot be positive those eternal joys will surely happen. 
In your coping method, have you put any thought into whether or not all the children will qualify for heaven? Will it be just the Christian children? Just the chosen/elect Christian children? Can you explain in more detail which kids make the cut and which ones won't and why you are "ok" with the kids that just suffer and die without going to the romper room in the sky?


----------



## welderguy (Feb 7, 2016)

bullethead said:


> I mean OK as in you have convinced yourself that their suffering now is a small price to pay for their eternal joys later even though you cannot be positive those eternal joys will surely happen.
> In your coping method, have you put any thought into whether or not all the children will qualify for heaven? Will it be just the Christian children? Just the chosen/elect Christian children? Can you explain in more detail which kids make the cut and which ones won't and why you are "ok" with the kids that just suffer and die without going to the romper room in the sky?



I don't know which children are the chosen ones.I'm just a lump of clay on the Potter's wheel like all the others.

His word says "all that will live Godly  in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution."

But it also says " the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us."

We all suffer,some more than others but my question to you is this: 
Do you think those that hate God even care that they will be separated from Him for eternity?


----------



## bullethead (Feb 7, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I don't know which children are the chosen ones.I'm just a lump of clay on the Potter's wheel like all the others.
> 
> His word says "all that will live Godly  in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution."
> 
> ...



You would serve the world better by caring for those children now.

To answer your question if you are directing it to me:
It is impossible for me to hate something that is phony.

If you are asking me the question regarding the children:
I suggest you do one thing in THIS life, go visit the cancer ward in a children's hospital. I don't think those innocent children hate anything real or imaginary and if you want to see some honest to goodness praying to your God you will not find any other place that is more sincere, more in need, or more deserving because of their innocence. Please tell us what you think after your visit there, save the indoctrination excuses beforehand.


----------



## welderguy (Feb 7, 2016)

bullethead said:


> You would serve the world better by caring for those children now.
> 
> To answer your question if you are directing it to me:
> It is impossible for me to hate something that is phony.
> ...



What makes you think I haven't done something already very similar to that?

So,is it because they are children that you say they are innocent,or because they are children with cancer that they are innocent?

I'm trying to get a handle on your criteria for innocency.
What determines if a person is innocent? Age,health,good deeds,how well they pray?,...you got me a little confused here.

And then there's the question of what determines whom you label as guilty.


----------



## bullethead (Feb 7, 2016)

welderguy said:


> What makes you think I haven't done something already very similar to that?
> 
> So,is it because they are children that you say they are innocent,or because they are children with cancer that they are innocent?
> 
> ...



If you have ever spent any time in a children's cancer ward you wouldn't be questioning what innocent is.

You don't need me to blame your confusion on.


----------



## welderguy (Feb 7, 2016)

bullethead said:


> I'm betting you have never spent any time in a children's cancer ward or you wouldn't be questioning what innocent is.
> 
> You don't need me to blame your confusion on.



The very best friend I had in this world died a terrible agonizing death with colon cancer at 19 years old.They gave him the maximum amount of morphine they could give,and they still had to strap him down to keep him in the bed because he was in so much pain.I know what cancer does,believe me.

So,what's your answer to my previous questions? Or you gonna keep evading?


----------



## bullethead (Feb 7, 2016)

welderguy said:


> The very best friend I had in this world died a terrible agonizing death with colon cancer at 19 years old.They gave him the maximum amount of morphine they could give,and they still had to strap him down to keep him in the bed because he was in so much pain.I know what cancer does,believe me.
> 
> So,what's your answer to my previous questions? Or you gonna keep evading?



Go to the children's ward now and you will see my answers.
My answer is there is no God that cares about those kids. They are too young to be anything but innocent.
If you go to a children's cancer ward see if you can find it in your heart to tell them and their families the nonsense you tell us in here. Tell them they are chosen to suffer. Tell that some of them will suffer for a greater reward but some will suffer for nothing because they are not chosen.

Another answer is I'll have to use your own conflicting beliefs.
Since you believe Jesus died for "our" sins those children certainly are innocent. Why did he die if he has not wiped the slate clean for ALL of mankind let alone children?
What is the term for people who have not heard of Jesus/God?  Innocents
Then you throw more excuses and confusion in there because even the stories vs reality don't make sense to you so then you say those kids must not be chosen, or elect,or innocent. 
We are born sinners but Jesus died for ALL sins but not everyone's sins, but those kids will be rewarded later, but not all of those kids, just some, but Jesus died for all.....

Cmon man.


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## welderguy (Feb 7, 2016)

bullethead said:


> Go to the children's ward now and you will see my answers.
> My answer is there is no God that cares about those kids. They are too young to be anything but innocent.
> If you go to a children's cancer ward see if you can find it in your heart to tell them and their families the nonsense you tell us in here. Tell them they are chosen to suffer. Tell that some of them will suffer for a greater reward but some will suffer for nothing because they are not chosen.



So,school me here.What would you say to a child who is looking death in the face? "Hey kid,I'm not going to tell you the truth,but it will be OK because there is no God anyway".



bullethead said:


> Another answer is I'll have to use your own conflicting beliefs.
> Since you believe Jesus died for "our" sins those children certainly are innocent. Why did he die if he has not wiped the slate clean for ALL of mankind let alone children?
> What is the term for people who have not heard of Jesus/God?  Innocents
> Then you throw more excuses and confusion in there because even the stories vs reality don't make sense to you so then you say those kids must not be chosen, or elect,or innocent.
> ...



Jesus did not die for all.If He did,there would be none in he11.And I assure you there will be some in he11.
Did it ever occur to you the reason we have sickness and death is because of man?And you say we are innocent and God is to blame.That's totally backwards.You should wonder why He doesn't destroy everyone,not question why He only saves some.


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## bullethead (Feb 7, 2016)

welderguy said:


> So,school me here.What would you say to a child who is looking death in the face? "Hey kid,I'm not going to tell you the truth,but it will be OK because there is no God anyway".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would tell them their family loves them and do not give up.
You make a great case on why gods were invented though.

Make all the excuses you want, you are in so deep you cannot stop anyway.

It did not occur to me we have that because of man mainly because the facts do not match your claims. What does occur to me is man wrote your bible and created your god.


----------



## welderguy (Feb 7, 2016)

bullethead said:


> I would tell them their family loves them and do not give up.
> You make a great case on why gods were invented though.
> 
> Make all the excuses you want, you are in so deep you cannot stop anyway.
> ...




Many times when people came to Jesus to be healed of their dreadful diseases,He would say "thy sins are forgiven".
I like that.That says to me,even though Jesus can and does heal physical sickness,He's far more concerned with our spiritual sickness.

Its like,instead of putting a bandaid on the symptom,He goes in and does surgery and completely removes the problem altogether.


----------



## bullethead (Feb 8, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Many times when people came to Jesus to be healed of their dreadful diseases,He would say "thy sins are forgiven".
> I like that.That says to me,even though Jesus can and does heal physical sickness,He's far more concerned with our spiritual sickness.
> 
> Its like,instead of putting a bandaid on the symptom,He goes in and does surgery and completely removes the problem altogether.



No times has Jesus ever showed up in a children's hospital and healed anyone. That says to me he exists nowhere outside of the writings in the bible.
It's like, instead of letting facts back your claims, you make this nonsense up in your head and actually believe it has happened.


----------



## welderguy (Feb 8, 2016)

bullethead said:


> No times has Jesus ever showed up in a children's hospital and healed anyone. That says to me he exists nowhere outside of the writings in the bible.
> It's like, instead of letting facts back your claims, you make this nonsense up in your head and actually believe it has happened.



I know of 3 different people who had "incurable" diseases,as told by multiple doctors,that suddenly were disease free.The doctors could not explain it.
But,I also know of many many others,including myself,who had the more fatal disease of sin,that were healed. Which do you think is the greater miracle?
Jesus is alive,and Im fully assured He moves in the halls of those cancer wards,if His children are there.I sincerely hope someday you can understand that.


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## 660griz (Feb 8, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I know of 3 different people who had "incurable" diseases,as told by multiple doctors,that suddenly were disease free.The doctors could not explain it.


 I can explain it. They were wrong. 


> But,I also know of many many others,including myself,who had the more fatal disease of sin,that were healed. Which do you think is the greater miracle?


 Absolutely no God created suffering for children. Hands down. That would be the greater miracle.


> Jesus is alive,and Im fully assured He moves in the halls of those cancer wards,if His children are there.I sincerely hope someday you can understand that.


 If he is in the halls, he has a cold heart.


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## drippin' rock (Feb 8, 2016)

660griz said:


> I can explain it. They were wrong.
> Absolutely no God created suffering for children. Hands down. That would be the greater miracle.
> If he is in the halls, he has a cold heart.



It's all part of the master plan, so suffering cancer babies are ok.  We just can't understand with our human minds.


----------



## bullethead (Feb 8, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I know of 3 different people who had "incurable" diseases,as told by multiple doctors,that suddenly were disease free.The doctors could not explain it.
> But,I also know of many many others,including myself,who had the more fatal disease of sin,that were healed. Which do you think is the greater miracle?
> Jesus is alive,and Im fully assured He moves in the halls of those cancer wards,if His children are there.I sincerely hope someday you can understand that.


I know of dozens of "healty" people who have dropped over dead without doctors being able to explain it.
Does that then prove Jesus kills for fun?

The greater miracle is you not only believing in nonsense but continuing to use absurd claims without a shred of factual evidence to back them up.


----------



## Gobbler Down (Feb 8, 2016)

welderguy said:


> What makes you think I haven't done something already very similar to that?
> 
> So,is it because they are children that you say they are innocent,or because they are children with cancer that they are innocent?
> 
> ...



In the words of my jesus, Christopher Hitchens, I offer up a few of his quotes for you to digest:

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” 

“Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it.” 

“What do you most value in your friends?
Their continued existence.” 

“To terrify children with the image of going to H***, to consider women an inferior creation—is that good for the world?”


And in closing I offer you this-

“About once or twice every month I engage in public debates with those whose pressing need it is to woo and to win the approval of supernatural beings. Very often, when I give my view that there is no supernatural dimension, and certainly not one that is only or especially available to the faithful, and that the natural world is wonderful enough—and even miraculous enough if you insist—I attract pitying looks and anxious questions. How, in that case, I am asked, do I find meaning and purpose in life? How does a mere and gross materialist, with no expectation of a life to come, decide what, if anything, is worth caring about?

Depending on my mood, I sometimes but not always refrain from pointing out what a breathtakingly insulting and patronizing question this is. (It is on a par with the equally subtle inquiry: Since you don't believe in our god, what stops you from stealing and lying and raping and killing to your heart's content?) Just as the answer to the latter question is: self-respect and the desire for the respect of others—while in the meantime it is precisely those who think they have divine permission who are truly capable of any atrocity—so the answer to the first question falls into two parts. A life that partakes even a little of friendship, love, irony, humor, parenthood, literature, and music, and the chance to take part in battles for the liberation of others cannot be called 'meaningless' except if the person living it is also an existentialist and elects to call it so. It could be that all existence is a pointless joke, but it is not in fact possible to live one's everyday life as if this were so. Whereas if one sought to define meaninglessness and futility, the idea that a human life should be expended in the guilty, fearful, self-obsessed propitiation of supernatural nonentities… but there, there. Enough.” 

Christopher Hitchens


----------



## Israel (Feb 8, 2016)

Gobbler Down said:


> In the words of my jesus, Christopher Hitchens, I offer up a few of his quotes for you to digest:
> 
> “That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
> 
> ...




There's no need to insist. To one it either is or isn't.


----------



## bullethead (Feb 8, 2016)

Israel said:


> There's no need to insist. To one it either is or isn't.



I am almost convinced  there is a god solely based off of your two sentence answer. Miraculous. Mysterious.


----------



## big lazer (Feb 8, 2016)

The invisible and the non existent are pretty much the same,  Mark Twain nailed it with that.


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## welderguy (Feb 9, 2016)

big lazer said:


> The invisible and the non existent are pretty much the same,  Mark Twain nailed it with that.



So..you're saying since you can't see the wind,it's nonexistent?

..profound.


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## ambush80 (Feb 9, 2016)

welderguy said:


> So..you're saying since you can't see the wind,it's nonexistent?
> 
> ..profound.



Put the word see in quotation marks and think of it more as "measure" or "test for".  Then, like with ultraviolet light, Twain's saying makes sense.

What is your test and measure for the invisible things that you believe in?


----------



## welderguy (Feb 9, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Put the word see in quotation marks and think of it more as "measure" or "test for".  Then, like with ultraviolet light, Twain's saying makes sense.
> 
> What is your test and measure for the invisible things that you believe in?



There is no measure because He fills me up to overflowing.
The test is whether He ever leaves me or not as He promised not to.He's never failed that test yet.There have been times when I've tried to hide from Him because of shame,but I couldn't shake Him.I'm glad I couldn't.The One I was trying to hide from was the One I needed most but didn't realize it at the time.


----------



## bullethead (Feb 9, 2016)

welderguy said:


> There is no measure because He fills me up to overflowing.
> The test is whether He ever leaves me or not as He promised not to.He's never failed that test yet.There have been times when I've tried to hide from Him because of shame,but I couldn't shake Him.I'm glad I couldn't.The One I was trying to hide from was the One I needed most but didn't realize it at the time.


Guilt will make a man do strange things.


----------



## 660griz (Feb 9, 2016)

welderguy said:


> There is no measure because He fills me up to overflowing.


 Hmmm


> There have been times when I've tried to hide from Him because of shame,but I couldn't shake Him.I'm glad I couldn't.The One I was trying to hide from was the One I needed most but didn't realize it at the time.



Do you have a history of a problem with 'moderation'?


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 9, 2016)

welderguy said:


> There is no measure because He fills me up to overflowing.
> The test is whether He ever leaves me or not as He promised not to.He's never failed that test yet.There have been times when I've tried to hide from Him because of shame,but I couldn't shake Him.I'm glad I couldn't.The One I was trying to hide from was the One I needed most but didn't realize it at the time.



When you say he never leaves you is it a feeling that you get that there's a person in the room with you?  Is it voices?  Can you describe how you know that he found you when you were hiding?


----------



## welderguy (Feb 9, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> When you say he never leaves you is it a feeling that you get that there's a person in the room with you?  Is it voices?  Can you describe how you know that he found you when you were hiding?



I guess the best way I can describe it is that it is a deep abiding attraction that is constantly there.Sometimes it is stronger than at other times,but it never goes away.
Think of it in terms of a big magnet attracting a small magnet.The big magnet never moves,but the small one sometimes moves away but comes right back.That's a crude physical illustration,but think of it more on a spiritual level.

Or maybe compare it to the time you fell in love with your wife.You had so much love inside for her that you couldn't get enough of her.Now multiply that feeling of love and attraction by a very very large number.

And when you realize that you are not the one causing all of those things, you appreciate and are in wonder of it all and it compels you to want to learn more about it and talk to others about it.It's an unquenchable thirst.


----------



## welderguy (Feb 9, 2016)

bullethead said:


> Guilt will make a man do strange things.



Yessir it will.


----------



## welderguy (Feb 9, 2016)

660griz said:


> Hmmm
> 
> 
> Do you have a history of a problem with 'moderation'?



Let's just put our past behind us,shall we?


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 9, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I guess the best way I can describe it is that it is a deep abiding attraction that is constantly there.Sometimes it is stronger than at other times,but it never goes away.
> Think of it in terms of a big magnet attracting a small magnet.The big magnet never moves,but the small one sometimes moves away but comes right back.That's a crude physical illustration,but think of it more on a spiritual level.
> 
> Or maybe compare it to the time you fell in love with your wife.You had so much love inside for her that you couldn't get enough of her.Now multiply that feeling of love and attraction by a very very large number.
> ...



I believe that you feel what you think you are feeling.  I really do.


----------



## bullethead (Feb 9, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> I believe that you feel what you think you are feeling.  I really do.



Tap Tap Tap


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 9, 2016)

bullethead said:


> Tap Tap Tap



Powerful stuff.


----------



## welderguy (Feb 9, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> I believe that you feel what you think you are feeling.  I really do.



I realize you just think that Ive convinced myself that I "feel" these things and they're just emotions playing tricks on my mind.But I know how emotions are.They are unstable.They wax and wane.But this is different than that.It's constant.


----------



## welderguy (Feb 10, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> I believe that you feel what you think you are feeling.  I really do.



When you were a believer, did you not experience what I'm trying to describe?

Can you relate what it was that you did experience?
(I'm not asking this so I can judge you,that's not my job.I'm just very interested.)


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 10, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I realize you just think that Ive convinced myself that I "feel" these things and they're just emotions playing tricks on my mind.But I know how emotions are.They are unstable.They wax and wane.But this is different than that.It's constant.



You are in complete control of what you feel.  You just have to believe it.


----------



## welderguy (Feb 10, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> You are in complete control of what you feel.  You just have to believe it.



The feeling part is pretty easy,I agree.You can work that up on command...there's not much worse than seeing someone who has worked themselves up religious-wise.

But the believing part cannot be worked up.It must be given.Agree?


----------



## 660griz (Feb 10, 2016)

welderguy said:


> The feeling part is pretty easy,I agree.You can work that up on command...there's not much worse than seeing someone who has worked themselves up religious-wise.
> 
> But the believing part cannot be worked up.It must be given.Agree?



Do you believe because you feel? 

Tap tap tap


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 10, 2016)

welderguy said:


> The feeling part is pretty easy,I agree.You can work that up on command...there's not much worse than seeing someone who has worked themselves up religious-wise.
> 
> But the believing part cannot be worked up.It must be given.Agree?



Like this?:


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 10, 2016)

welderguy said:


> The feeling part is pretty easy,I agree.You can work that up on command...there's not much worse than seeing someone who has worked themselves up religious-wise.
> 
> But the believing part cannot be worked up.It must be given.Agree?



Watch the video in my thread _How to Convert an Atheist_.  It will answer your question.

Watch it.  See how foolish unbelievers are.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 10, 2016)

660griz said:


> Do you believe because you feel?
> 
> Tap tap tap



He uses those taps like a preacher uses words like "amen" and "hallelujah".

Like "Blah blah blaha blah AMEN! blah blah bla blah HALLELUJAH!"  They're re-enforcers to the behavior or the sensation.  Like when car salesmen prime you by getting you to say yes in casual conversation before they make their pitch.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 10, 2016)

welderguy said:


> When you were a believer, did you not experience what I'm trying to describe?
> 
> Can you relate what it was that you did experience?
> (I'm not asking this so I can judge you,that's not my job.I'm just very interested.)



Yes.  I did.  I felt that God loved me and protected me and talked to me.  When I was afraid I prayed and it made me feel safe.  I could hear Him in my thoughts and His voice filled my heart with comfort and peace.

He always spoke English and had a deep voice.  Sometimes it had a little reverb.  Sometimes it was a whisper or a soft, gentle voice.  I always pictured that this was God's Jesus form talking to me.


----------



## Gobbler Down (Feb 10, 2016)

I see people do that all the time, near drug dens, MARTA in Atlanta at 2:00 AM, Jonestown, man...I've even done it once in Central America in '84 when I ate something near San Miguel Volcano that turned out to be a hallucinogen.  

Parroting, if I recall correctly.  If a cockatoo is rocking the hymn, is it feeling the spirit too?

Man fabricates religion…, period.  About every 2000 years, there is a cleansing and re-shuffling.  Ergo- the Vatican's stance on things that in the 50's and 60's would have a member burned at the proverbial altar for heresy.  

If a percentage of the population is, or does now- what then was forbidden, and their families love them in spite of their flaws, and if the church condemns that person for life…that flawed person takes their family AND THEIR MONEY and finds a more accommodating religion.  Let us face it; the Vatican likes the billion dollars a MONTH they receive from their satellite offices!

Have you ever thought why that particular part of this planet was selected by whomever wrote the book- as the stage for the bible?  The most uneducated people on the face of the earth (back then) inhabited the most inhospitable mountains and deserts and that is where they decided to layout the master plan.  To me it screams of the educated wanting to control the uneducated.  Kind of like politics, only with smoky things on chains and men with highly adorned hats and robes.


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## welderguy (Feb 10, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Yes.  I did.  I felt that God loved me and protected me and talked to me.  When I was afraid I prayed and it made me feel safe.  I could hear Him in my thoughts and His voice filled my heart with comfort and peace.
> 
> He always spoke English and had a deep voice.  Sometimes it had a little reverb.  Sometimes it was a whisper or a soft, gentle voice.  I always pictured that this was God's Jesus form talking to me.



OK, if all of this is true,(not insinuating it's false), what caused you to stop believing?


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 10, 2016)

welderguy said:


> OK, if all of this is true,(not insinuating it's false), what caused you to stop believing?



Reading the Bible.

The more I read it the more I saw the hand of man.   I tried to find God in other religions and studied most of the popular ones.   I remained a deist for a few years and then eventually I dropped the whole notion.

Mine is a common experience.


----------



## bullethead (Feb 10, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Reading the Bible.
> 
> The more I read it the more I saw the hand of man.   I tried to find God in other religions and studied most of the popular ones.   I remained a deist for a few years and then eventually I dropped the whole notion.
> 
> Mine is a common experience.


X2!
I was so fascinated with the biblical stories and because I was sure that they came from God I figured checking into them historically would be a piece of cake. The more I tried to back those stories up the more I found was incorrect, inaccurate, or just plain lies.


----------



## welderguy (Feb 10, 2016)

I hope I don't offend you when I say this but I don't believe either of you(Ambush and Bullet) have been given faith. Or ,if you have, you are in a state of rebellion,from which you need to repent.

If you don't repent,it's evidence you never had faith. But God is not on anyone's schedule.He can give faith whenever He chooses.


----------



## bullethead (Feb 10, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I hope I don't offend you when I say this but I don't believe either of you(Ambush and Bullet) have been given faith. Or ,if you have, you are in a state of rebellion,from which you need to repent.
> 
> If you don't repent,it's evidence you never had faith. But God is not on anyone's schedule.He can give faith whenever He chooses.


No offense taken and I hope you are not offended when I tell you that as a believer saying we have never been given  faith is the only way you can wrap your mind around the path to God not working.
There is no path because there is no God just cannot be an option for you so even when you are presented with testimony that "we" (in our minds too)were all JUST as chosen, elect, etc... as you think you are now, you somehow are more special. You get it like nobody else can while the next believer thinks you are not chosen for the same reasons you think we were not.

Watch the videos Ambush posted. You might just learn something without changing your beliefs.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 10, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I hope I don't offend you when I say this but I don't believe either of you(Ambush and Bullet) have been given faith. Or ,if you have, you are in a state of rebellion,from which you need to repent.
> 
> If you don't repent,it's evidence you never had faith. But God is not on anyone's schedule.He can give faith whenever He chooses.


 
You will believe whatever you want.  I could show you my NIV covered with notes, dog eared pages, Post It bookmarks, my library of theology books, my correspondence to a friend in need where I tell him to trust in the Lord and you might STILL say I never had faith.

What I can give you is evidence but at the end of the day you might decide that I'm not a real person on the other side of the screen but Satan himself tapping on the keyboard trying to draw you away from Jesus.

You will decide what you believe in despite the evidence.

I choose to follow the evidence.  Did you watch the video?


----------



## welderguy (Feb 10, 2016)

bullethead said:


> No offense taken and I hope you are not offended when I tell you that as a believer saying we have never been given  faith is the only way you can wrap your mind around the path to God not working.
> There is no path because there is no God just cannot be an option for you so even when you are presented with testimony that "we" (in our minds too)were all JUST as chosen, elect, etc... as you think you are now, you somehow are more special. You get it like nobody else can while the next believer thinks you are not chosen for the same reasons you think we were not.
> 
> Watch the videos Ambush posted. You might just learn something without changing your beliefs.



I never said you weren't chosen. In a nutshell, I said you were not showing evidence of it. But my main point is that faith is required for true belief.


----------



## welderguy (Feb 10, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> You will believe whatever you want.  I could show you my NIV covered with notes, dog eared pages, Post It bookmarks, my library of theology books, my correspondence to a friend in need where I tell him to trust in the Lord and you might STILL say I never had faith.
> 
> What I can give you is evidence but at the end of the day you might decide that I'm not a real person on the other side of the screen but Satan himself tapping on the keyboard trying to draw you away from Jesus.
> 
> ...



You are not understanding me.

If you are showing me proof of the faith you had, then I have to question why you abandoned your belief. Because from what I know about faith, once God gives faith,it is PERMANENT.He doesn't take it back.

And yes, I did watch most of the video.not all.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 10, 2016)

welderguy said:


> You are not understanding me.
> 
> If you are showing me proof of the faith you had, then I have to question why you abandoned your belief. Because from what I know about faith, once God gives faith,it is PERMANENT.He doesn't take it back.
> 
> And yes, I did watch most of the video.not all.



I would say that your understanding of faith and how it works is incomplete.  Those videos should have shown you that.

Watch this:


----------



## Gobbler Down (Feb 10, 2016)

I spent a year in Egypt/Sinai/Israel, swam in the Dead Sea and Sea of Galilee, feasted at Masada and visited both Golgotha's, the one by the Palestinian bus station and the one they take the tourists to.  Climbed Mt. Sinai no less than 10 times.  You get the picture.  As a military pilot had the opportunity to see areas that they reserve only for heads of state and celebrities.  It's a moneymaker for the tourism groups and a place where everyone lays claim to the other's territory.  While I loved Israel and its people, it wasn't for the holy aspect.  It was for their tenacity, their warrior sentinel spirit and their ability to protect a country 250 miles long and 70 miles wide at its widest from a billion people trying to exterminate them.
The land is sacred because it belongs to them.  They aren't fighting to protect the tomb of the holy sepulchre or garden of gethsemane....they are protecting their way of life and heritage.  
The reason I mention this is-  if ever a people needed a miracle, it would be the children of your god.  Seems to me that would be a priority.  Jesus, take the wheel.


----------



## bullethead (Feb 11, 2016)

welderguy said:


> You are not understanding me.
> 
> If you are showing me proof of the faith you had, then I have to question why you abandoned your belief. Because from what I know about faith, once God gives faith,it is PERMANENT.He doesn't take it back.
> 
> And yes, I did watch most of the video.not all.


All you know about faith is whatever definition you make up in your mind based off of no one's experience but your own. Every believer has their own definition and if you have ever visited the forums above you will see that nothing is universal when it comes to religion.


----------



## welderguy (Feb 11, 2016)

bullethead said:


> All you know about faith is whatever definition you make up in your mind based off of no one's experience but your own. Every believer has their own definition and if you have ever visited the forums above you will see that nothing is universal when it comes to religion.



Most all the disagreements in the forums above stem from believers who are seeking after God's truth(evidence of faith).

Most of the debates down here stem from those trying to deny God's truth(evidence of lack of faith.)

Huge difference.


----------



## 660griz (Feb 11, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Most of the debates down here stem from those trying to deny God's truth(evidence of lack of faith.)



There is no 'God's Truth'. That is the point. Everything you know about God comes from a book written by men. Why would a God need a book to get his word out? A GOD!


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 11, 2016)

660griz said:


> There is no 'God's Truth'. That is the point. Everything you know about God comes from a book written by men. Why would a God need a book to get his word out? A GOD!




I think non-believers should stop using the argument "Why would God do it that way?".  If there is a God, He might have used men to write his thoughts down in the Bible or caused a donkey to talk or walked on water.  He might have drowned men, women and children.  He might have killed the first born son's of Egypt (though the historical record makes that unlikely).  He may indeed send Ghandi to He11 and send Jim and Tammy Faye Baker to Heaven.  He may indeed send Jeffrey Dahmer to Heaven after a jail house conversion.

The issue isn't is it possible that God is a homicidal maniac that behaves like a Iron Age Middle Eastern male or not.  Of _course_ He could be just like that.  If He is the the God of the Bible then He most certainly is.  The question is "Is such a God worthy of worship?"


----------



## welderguy (Feb 11, 2016)

660griz said:


> There is no 'God's Truth'. That is the point. Everything you know about God comes from a book written by men. Why would a God need a book to get his word out? A GOD!



Without realizing it, you just affirmed what I said.
Evidence of lack of faith.

Thanks Griz.


----------



## 660griz (Feb 11, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Without realizing it, you just affirmed what I said.
> Evidence of lack of faith.
> 
> Thanks Griz.



I am pretty sure most everyone is aware of my lack of faith. Really not an ah ha moment. Glad you finally got it though.

Faith definition:
strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 11, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Without realizing it, you just affirmed what I said.
> Evidence of lack of faith.
> 
> Thanks Griz.



If you have evidence then you don't need faith.  Faith in and of itself isn't a thing to be admired.  Faith in something foolish or dangerous should be reviled.


----------



## bullethead (Feb 11, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Most all the disagreements in the forums above stem from believers who are seeking after God's truth(evidence of faith).
> 
> Most of the debates down here stem from those trying to deny God's truth(evidence of lack of faith.)
> 
> Huge difference.


If there was any truth to it there would be no debate.


----------



## bullethead (Feb 11, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> I think non-believers should stop using the argument "Why would God do it that way?".  If there is a God, He might have used men to write his thoughts down in the Bible or caused a donkey to talk or walked on water.  He might have drowned men, women and children.  He might have killed the first born son's of Egypt (though the historical record makes that unlikely).  He may indeed send Ghandi to He11 and send Jim and Tammy Faye Baker to Heaven.  He may indeed send Jeffrey Dahmer to Heaven after a jail house conversion.
> 
> The issue isn't is it possible that God is a homicidal maniac that behaves like a Iron Age Middle Eastern male or not.  Of _course_ He could be just like that.  If He is the the God of the Bible then He most certainly is.  The question is "Is such a God worthy of worship?"


I'd like to first find out "is god", and then work all the other stuff out after that is established.


----------



## welderguy (Feb 11, 2016)

bullethead said:


> If there was any truth to it there would be no debate.



The fact that God's word is the truth is the very reason that there is so much debate.Satan hates truth.He's a liar.Wherever truth is found,Satan is doing all he can to change it into a lie.

This forum is no exception.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 11, 2016)

bullethead said:


> I'd like to first find out "is god", and then work all the other stuff out after that is established.




That's a dead end.  No way to definitively prove it either way.  But as we've gone through a million times the last best argument for God is "Everything has a cause so there must have been a cause........wait for it..... wait........except for the first cause which needs no cause."

I don't get how people can hear themselves say that and think it makes sense.  The default position should be "no first cause until further review."  

The God of the Bible (or of any of the known religions) is a dog with way worse fleas than simply not making sense.


----------



## bullethead (Feb 11, 2016)

welderguy said:


> The fact that God's word is the truth is the very reason that there is so much debate.Satan hates truth.He's a liar.Wherever truth is found,Satan is doing all he can to change it into a lie.
> 
> This forum is no exception.



Again, where is fact? You cannot even show me a God. Something so true as you claim your God to be should be easy to prove. Well ......


----------



## bullethead (Feb 11, 2016)

welderguy said:


> The fact that God's word is the truth is the very reason that there is so much debate.Satan hates truth.He's a liar.Wherever truth is found,Satan is doing all he can to change it into a lie.
> 
> This forum is no exception.


If you are using the bible as the example of your God's word you should then recognize all the incredible errors, untruths, inaccuracies, and flat out lies in there to provide evidence to yourself that your God isn't a God at all.
And now you want to introduce a rogue angel that somehow surprised an all knowing God with a rebellion....sheesh. I guess your God didn't see that coming. Well I guess you have to conjure up another excuse to hang your beliefs on when the perfect god just doesn't cut it.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 11, 2016)

welderguy said:


> The fact that God's word is the truth is the very reason that there is so much debate.Satan hates truth.He's a liar.Wherever truth is found,Satan is doing all he can to change it into a lie.
> 
> This forum is no exception.



Look for them.  Look for God and Satan.  Really, really search.  You'll find that they only exist in your mind.


----------



## 660griz (Feb 11, 2016)

welderguy said:


> The fact that God's word is the truth


 Not such thing. 





> Satan hates truth.He's a liar.


 No such thing. 





> Whenever truth is mentioned in this forum, _welderguy_ is doing all he can to change it into a lie.


Fixed it for you.


----------



## drippin' rock (Feb 11, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I guess the best way I can describe it is that it is a deep abiding attraction that is constantly there.Sometimes it is stronger than at other times,but it never goes away.
> Think of it in terms of a big magnet attracting a small magnet.The big magnet never moves,but the small one sometimes moves away but comes right back.That's a crude physical illustration,but think of it more on a spiritual level.
> 
> Or maybe compare it to the time you fell in love with your wife.You had so much love inside for her that you couldn't get enough of her.Now multiply that feeling of love and attraction by a very very large number.
> ...



Or a tumor...


----------



## welderguy (Feb 12, 2016)

bullethead said:


> You would serve the world better by caring for those children now.



What about the thousands upon thousands of babies that are aborted.What's your solution for helping them?


----------



## bullethead (Feb 12, 2016)

welderguy said:


> What about the thousands upon thousands of babies that are aborted.What's your solution for helping them?



Wait, huh


----------



## bullethead (Feb 12, 2016)

welderguy said:


> What about the thousands upon thousands of babies that are aborted.What's your solution for helping them?



Oh you are jumping back eleventeen pages...

I do not have, nor claim to have had a solution for aborted babies. Why would you bring up something so off topic?


----------



## welderguy (Feb 12, 2016)

bullethead said:


> Oh you are jumping back eleventeen pages...
> 
> I do not have, nor claim to have had a solution for aborted babies. Why would you bring up something so off topic?



Cause Ive had those cancer children on my mind ever since you mentioned them and it makes me sad every time I think of them.But then I got to thinking about all the little babies that don't even get to see the light of day and that really makes me sad.

I was hoping you knew of a way we could help their cause somehow.Guess not.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 12, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Cause Ive had those cancer children on my mind ever since you mentioned them and it makes me sad every time I think of them.But then I got to thinking about all the little babies that don't even get to see the light of day and that really makes me sad.
> 
> I was hoping you knew of a way we could help their cause somehow.Guess not.



Do you think God knew which babies were gonna get cancer or be aborted or was He surprised?

Is it sadder to abort babies or kill them in a world wide flood?  It shouldn't be any surprise to you that we, who inherited the wickedness of Adam, would kill babies.  What's God's excuse?


----------



## welderguy (Feb 12, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Do you think God knew which babies were gonna get cancer or be aborted or was He surprised?
> 
> Is it sadder to abort babies or kill them in a world wide flood?  It shouldn't be any surprise to you that we, who inherited the wickedness of Adam, would kill babies.  What's God's excuse?



Isaiah 49:15King James Version (KJV)

15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.


----------



## bullethead (Feb 12, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Cause Ive had those cancer children on my mind ever since you mentioned them and it makes me sad every time I think of them.But then I got to thinking about all the little babies that don't even get to see the light of day and that really makes me sad.
> 
> I was hoping you knew of a way we could help their cause somehow.Guess not.


We are in the same boat with our thoughts about the children with cancer.
You touched on a good point though. Children with cancer, aborted fetuses, and 100s of other scenarios that have children not only in harms way but helpless to their situation through no fault of their own. Are these Planned by a higher power? Are these children used as pawns in an advertisement for god/ heaven?
I am glad that you are thinking about those kids because no matter if you think they are going to be better off later, it is the extreme suffering that they endure now that really upsets me.
The fact that you, i, we want to do something for all the children is awesome but it is beyond our control. What would you do for them if you could do anything  for them, what would you do if you had special powers, what would you do if you were god?


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 12, 2016)

Welder,

You're a predesination guy, right?  Isn't Adam's sin part of God's plan?  Isn't the Devil's sin also part of God's plan?  Is it possible that God's plan for me all along that I be destined for He11?


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 12, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Isaiah 49:15King James Version (KJV)
> 
> 15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.




This doesn't have anything to do with what I posted.  If you think it does please explain it to me.


----------



## welderguy (Feb 12, 2016)

bullethead said:


> Welder are in the same boat with our thoughts about the children with cancer.
> You touched on a good point though. Children with cancer, aborted fetuses, and 100s of other scenarios that have children not only in harms way but helpless to their situation through no fault of their own. Are these Planned by a higher power? Are these children used as pawns in an advertisement for god/ heaven?
> I am glad that you are thinking about those kids because no matter if you think they are going to be better off later, it is the extreme suffering that they endure now that really upsets me.
> The fact that you, i, we want to do something for all the children is awesome but it is beyond our control. What would you do for them if you could do anything  for them, what would you do if you had special powers, what would you do if you were god?



Do you believe as I do that there should be laws against the killing of unborn babies ?This would be a huge step.


----------



## welderguy (Feb 12, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> This doesn't have anything to do with what I posted.  If you think it does please explain it to me.



Yeah but it has everything to do with what's on my mind right now,abortion.Are you a supporter of or an opposer of abortion?


----------



## bullethead (Feb 12, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Isaiah 49:15King James Version (KJV)
> 
> 15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.


You cite a scripture quote but how do YOU feel?


----------



## bullethead (Feb 12, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Do you believe as I do that there should be laws against the killing of unborn babies ?This would be a huge step.



What would YOU if you had the power to do anything you wanted to do?

I think there are certain unusual circumstances that cause me to be both pro and anti.
Rape, incest, severe health issues, deformities that effect growth to full term etc being examples where I would leave it to the woman/ victim to choose.


----------



## bullethead (Feb 12, 2016)

Ultimately humans have to step in at some point and make those decisions because despite our best hopes  no higher power has, will, or ever does.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 12, 2016)

Welder,

Can you answer this:



ambush80 said:


> Do you think God knew which babies were gonna get cancer or be aborted or was He surprised?
> 
> Is it sadder to abort babies or kill them in a world wide flood?  It shouldn't be any surprise to you that we, who inherited the wickedness of Adam, would kill babies.  What's God's excuse?



Just straight up. No Bible verses.   Just your own words, unless you tell me what the Bible verse means to you.  After all, there's no way I could understand the meaning of a Bible verse because I have no discernment.  You have to help me.


----------



## bullethead (Feb 12, 2016)

In the entire course of this conversation Welder has avoided most answers that have required his own personal thoughts.
I suspect because his own personal thoughts conflict with his beliefs and is too afraid to admit the truth where he thinks his God could read it, hear it, or read his mind.
I was there once.
I have never felt so liberated as when I took the first step to saying what I thought instead of what a God would want me to say. It consistently got better from there on out.


----------



## welderguy (Feb 12, 2016)

bullethead said:


> What would YOU if you had the power to do anything you wanted to do?
> 
> I think there are certain unusual circumstances that cause me to be both pro and anti.
> Rape, incest, severe health issues, deformities that effect growth to full term etc being examples where I would leave it to the woman/ victim to choose.



I think that's very hypocritical.Why wouldn't the unborn babies deserve the same compassion that the cancer children get.They are human beings just the same as you are.It does not matter how they were conceived or if theres something wrong with them,they deserve a fighting chance.


----------



## bullethead (Feb 12, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I think that's very hypocritical.Why wouldn't the unborn babies deserve the same compassion that the cancer children get.They are human beings just the same as you are.It does not matter how they were conceived or if theres something wrong with them,they deserve a fighting chance.


I see you have avoided answering yet another question. 

I gave you an answer and an honest answer based off of my true feelings on the subject.

And few of us would appreciate if you would step up and give us the same courtesy.


----------



## welderguy (Feb 12, 2016)

bullethead said:


> You cite a scripture quote but how do YOU feel?



Just so you know for future reference,if I post a scripture theres a really good chance I feel the way the verse is expressing.Otherwise I wouldn't post it.


----------



## welderguy (Feb 12, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Welder,
> 
> You're a predesination guy, right?  Isn't Adam's sin part of God's plan?  Isn't the Devil's sin also part of God's plan?  Is it possible that God's plan for me all along that I be destined for He11?



Yes
Yes
Yes
and Yes


----------



## bullethead (Feb 12, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Just so you know for future reference,if I post a scripture theres a really good chance I feel the way the verse is expressing.Otherwise I wouldn't post it.


Then for our sake, please explain it in layman's terms because MY interpretaion of the scripture you post is way different than what you must mean.
Suckling kids and wombs didn't seem to fit what Ambush asked.


----------



## bullethead (Feb 12, 2016)

Welder, I again pose the question: what would you do to change the situations of children with cancer or the unborn fetuses about to be aborted?
What would you do right now with your current capabilities?
What would you do if you had unlimited power?
What would you do if you were God?


----------



## bullethead (Feb 12, 2016)

I guess there are not many bible verses for having your own opinion?


----------



## welderguy (Feb 12, 2016)

bullethead said:


> Welder, I again pose the question: 1.what would you do to change the situations of children with cancer 2.or the unborn fetuses about to be aborted?
> 3.What would you do right now with your current capabilities?
> 4.What would you do if you had unlimited power?
> 5.What would you do if you were God?



1.I don't know.
2.make laws against it.
3.I don't know.
4.find a cure for cancer and make laws against abortion.
5.you should not ask blasphemous questions such as this.


----------



## bullethead (Feb 12, 2016)

welderguy said:


> 1.I don't know.
> 2.make laws against it.
> 3.I don't know.
> 4.find a cure for cancer and make laws against abortion.
> 5.you should not ask blasphemous questions such as this.


First and foremost what is blasphemous to you means absolutely nothing to someone else who does not share your beliefs.i cannot blaspheme something I do not believe in.

I appreciate your other answers so I hope this next thought let's you ponder those things a little more...
In your world you believe in a being that supposedly can correct those situations but either cannot or will not.
In either case that is something that even if it does exist is not worthy of being called God by me.


----------



## welderguy (Feb 12, 2016)

bullethead said:


> In your world you believe in a being that supposedly can correct those situations but either cannot or will not.
> In either case that is something that even if it does exist is not worthy of being called God by me.



First and foremost,the reason its blasphemous is because you were deliberately trying to tempt me to do the exact same thing Satan did before he was cast out of heaven.He wanted to be God himself.

Second, if you knew the sovereignty of God,you would understand that God is Lord over all things.He does what He pleases.He doesn't owe you an explanation to any of it.Who do you think you are anyway?All you are is dressed up dust.


----------



## bullethead (Feb 13, 2016)

welderguy said:


> First and foremost,the reason its blasphemous is because you were deliberately trying to tempt me to do the exact same thing Satan did before he was cast out of heaven.He wanted to be God himself.
> 
> Second, if you knew the sovereignty of God,you would understand that God is Lord over all things.He does what He pleases.He doesn't owe you an explanation to any of it.Who do you think you are anyway?All you are is dressed up dust.



Dressed up dust was intelligent enough to create your God and since I share the same dust pan I think I rank right up there with them.

So fellow particle, if you are able to back up any of these outlandish claims I'll spare you the Swiffer. If not , my name is Inigo Montoya..you called me satan.. prepare to be dusted.....


----------



## welderguy (Feb 13, 2016)

bullethead said:


> Dressed up dust was intelligent enough to create your God and since I share the same dust pan I think I rank right up there with them.
> 
> So fellow particle, if you are able to back up any of these outlandish claims I'll spare you the Swiffer. If not , my name is Inigo Montoya..you called me satan.. prepare to be dusted.....



Dust away my fellow dirtbag.

And I did not call you satan.I said you were doing what he did.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 13, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Yes
> Yes
> Yes
> and Yes



Thanks for answering my question about predestination.  So, how do you answer this?:



ambush80 said:


> Do you think God knew which babies were gonna get cancer or be aborted or was He surprised?
> 
> Is it sadder to abort babies or kill them in a world wide flood?  It shouldn't be any surprise to you that we, who inherited the wickedness of Adam, would kill babies.  What's God's excuse?



For the first part, your answer is obviously "yes".  God knew which ones would get cancer and which ones would get aborted.  There are no surprises for Him.  What is your answer for the second part?  Is it sadder to you that some babies get aborted or that all of them are drowned in a world wide flood?   Just your opinion.  I'm not asking you to try to think like God or anything.

Lets think this through together.  Lets do an if A=B and B=C then A=C kind of thing.  

If God knew which babies were gonna be aborted and he didn't stop them from being aborted then it is some part of his plan that they get aborted.  Are you with me?  God's plan was that those babies got aborted.  God is good and love and never sins.  

God's plan is that some babies get aborted.  God is good and love.  Aborted babies is good and loving, so stop complaining about them.  

All to His glory, my friend.  Hallelujah.


----------



## welderguy (Feb 13, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Thanks for answering my question about predestination.  So, how do you answer this?:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Before I give my complete answer,I need to ask you this:
Do you understand that God's justice demands that ALL sins must be paid for? That they must come under His vengeance and wrath?


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 13, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Before I give my complete answer,I need to ask you this:
> Do you understand that God's justice demands that ALL sins must be paid for? That they must come under His vengeance and wrath?



From what I understand of Christian theology, sins were paid for by Jesus' crucifixion.   What else should I know about it and what does it have to do with my question?


----------



## welderguy (Feb 13, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> From what I understand of Christian theology, sins were paid for by Jesus' crucifixion.   What else should I know about it and what does it have to do with my question?



When Adam transgressed God's commandment,all of humanity was cursed.This curse not only meant that every person must die,and that there would be disease and every imaginable horrible thing you can think of, but it also meant that God's justice must be satisfied.Why? Not because God is mean or evil(like we are),but to the contrary He is SO righteous that evil cannot be excused.It must be paid for.He chose to pour out His goodness and grace on His chosen vessels by pouring out His wrath on His perfect Son.
But,the sins of those He did not choose still must be paid for.
He was not obligated to save anyone,so don't give me that bit about "He's unfair".
Man is the reason for ALL the disease and murder and evil.Not God.Sure,He knew it would happen.He knows everything.But He's not to blame for it.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 13, 2016)

welderguy said:


> When Adam transgressed God's commandment,all of humanity was cursed.This curse not only meant that every person must die,and that there would be disease and every imaginable horrible thing you can think of, but it also meant that God's justice must be satisfied.Why? Not because God is mean or evil(like we are),but to the contrary He is SO righteous that evil cannot be excused.It must be paid for.He chose to pour out His goodness and grace on His chosen vessels by pouring out His wrath on His perfect Son.
> But,the sins of those He did not choose still must be paid for.
> He was not obligated to save anyone,so don't give me that bit about "He's unfair".
> Man is the reason for ALL the disease and murder and evil.Not God.Sure,He knew it would happen.He knows everything.But He's not to blame for it.



"Man is the reason"

Is man capable of doing anything that God has not allowed?  Can Satan do things without God's allowance?

If you see a child about to stick his/her hand in a running lawn mower and you stood there and watched them do it when you could have easily prevented them what would you consider your level of culpability in their getting maimed or killed?

If I were predestined to write this next sentence to you, meaning there was no other sentence that I could have written but this one, how could you say that it was I was responsible for it?  Where does responsibility lie if I have no choice?


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## welderguy (Feb 13, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> "Man is the reason"
> 
> Is man capable of doing anything that God has not allowed?  Can Satan do things without God's allowance?
> 
> ...



Ahh, see but you do have a choice in what you do.You just do not have a choice in whether you are His or not.

People all over this planet have these two concepts backward.Do you think satan might have a hand in promoting those lies?I sure do.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 13, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Ahh, see but you do have a choice in what you do.You just do not have a choice in whether you are His or not.
> 
> People all over this planet have these two concepts backward.Do you think satan might have a hand in promoting those lies?I sure do.



Do you believe that God doesn't know what I will type next?  Do you think I do things sometimes that surprise Him?  

And will you please answer my questions:

_"Is man capable of doing anything that God has not allowed? Can Satan do things without God's allowance?

If you see a child about to stick his/her hand in a running lawn mower and you stood there and watched them do it when you could have easily prevented them what would you consider your level of culpability in their getting maimed or killed?"_


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## welderguy (Feb 13, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> 1.Do you believe that God doesn't know what I will type next?
> 2.Do you think I do things sometimes that surprise Him?
> 3.Is man capable of doing anything that God has not allowed?
> 4. Can Satan do things without God's allowance?
> 5.If you see a child about to stick his/her hand in a running lawn mower and you stood there and watched them do it when you could have easily prevented them what would you consider your level of culpability in their getting maimed or killed?"[/I]



1.God is Omniscient.
2.No
3.No
4.No
5.In this particular situation,as a fellow human being,I should try to prevent the child's harm.(unless there is a greater good or purpose in letting the child get maimed,of course)


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## ambush80 (Feb 13, 2016)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ambush80 View Post
_1.Do you believe that God doesn't know what I will type next?
2.Do you think I do things sometimes that surprise Him?
3.Is man capable of doing anything that God has not allowed?
4. Can Satan do things without God's allowance?
5.If you see a child about to stick his/her hand in a running lawn mower and you stood there and watched them do it when you could have easily prevented them what would you consider your level of culpability in their getting maimed or killed?"
_




welderguy said:


> 1.God is Omniscient.
> 2.No
> 3.No
> 4.No
> 5.In this particular situation,as a fellow human being,I should try to prevent the child's harm.(unless there is a greater good or purpose in letting the child get maimed,of course)



Thanks for formatting my questions this way.

Can you explain how if what I do is predetermined that it can be considered a choice?  

Also, in the same way that you might let a child get maimed by the lawnmower for a greater good, would you say that God lets Satan run amok for a good reason as well?   Would that not make Satan an agent of God; a tool, if you will?

And if Satan is a tool of God who is acting as an agent of God's merciful, just and righteous plan, doesn't that mean that what Satan does is good?


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## welderguy (Feb 13, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by ambush80 View Post
> _1.Do you believe that God doesn't know what I will type next?
> 2.Do you think I do things sometimes that surprise Him?
> ...



See post 163. 
And Josh.24:15
And Isaiah 46:10
And Job chapter 1.(satan can only do what God allows him to do.)

God has determined the end from the beginning.And He has worked His will through our choices,not according to them.We are accountable for those choices.

Example: When Joseph told his brothers "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good."

Also look at this:
Jer.29:11
 "For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end."


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## ambush80 (Feb 14, 2016)

welderguy said:


> See post 163.
> And Josh.24:15
> And Isaiah 46:10
> And Job chapter 1.(satan can only do what God allows him to do.)
> ...




Again, if you respond with a verse you will have to explain it to me.  You have to tell me what it means like a preacher does because I am unrepentant and unable to correctly discern.

Hey, you never know.  If you are good enough at discerning the word, if God has bestowed upon you the ability to interpret the Bible, maybe you can be a preacher.  You can tell lots of people what the Bible means.  But not to get ahead of ourselves, why don't you tell me what those verses mean.


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## ambush80 (Feb 14, 2016)

welderguy said:


> God has determined the end from the beginning.And He has worked His will through our choices,not according to them.We are accountable for those choices.



Can you explain how these two things can exist at the same time?  Explain it to me like I'm a seven year old if you can.


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## welderguy (Feb 14, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Can you explain how these two things can exist at the same time?  Explain it to me like I'm a seven year old if you can.



Ok.I'm rushing out the door,but I will try later kid.


----------



## welderguy (Feb 14, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by welderguy View Post
> 
> God has determined the end from the beginning.And He has worked His will through our choices,not according to them.We are accountable for those choices.
> ...




God is eternal,meaning He doesn't exist "in time",as we do.
Our future is His present,and our past is His present.That's why He is the "I AM".
I hear a lot of people say "God looked into the future to see who would seek after Him" and so on.This is not according to scripture.God predestined His elect to be conformed to His image(be made perfect) before the foundation of the world(before time).That's what predestination is.
He allows us to make choices(in time),and has told us in His word that there are consequences for wrong choices and rewards for right choices(in time).
These choices do not alter the end He's already predestined,in fact,those choices work together to bring about the expected end.

Rom.8:28
"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God,to them who are the called according to His purpose."


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## ambush80 (Feb 14, 2016)

welderguy said:


> God is eternal,meaning He doesn't exist "in time",as we do.
> Our future is His present,and our past is His present.That's why He is the "I AM".
> I hear a lot of people say "God looked into the future to see who would seek after Him" and so on.This is not according to scripture.God predestined His elect to be conformed to His image(be made perfect) before the foundation of the world(before time).That's what predestination is.
> He allows us to make choices(in time),and has told us in His word that there are consequences for wrong choices and rewards for right choices(in time).
> ...




Thank you for your explanation.

Lets try an experiment .  Put a red pen in front of you and a blue pen.  Pick one up. Which was it, the blue one or the red one?  God has always known which one you were gonna pick up, right?  Was there a possibility that you would pick one that God had not already foreseen?  How about your socks?  How about what to have for breakfast?  How about when you sin?   Where was the choice?  I know it _seemed_ like a choice from your end but how could it be?

Lets look at the definition of choice:

_Choice 

    : the act of choosing : the act of picking or deciding between two or more possibilities

    : the opportunity or power to choose between two or more possibilities : the opportunity or power to make a decision

    : a range of things that can be chosen_

No, my friend.  If you believe in predestination you will have to use a different word than choice or re-define the word for your purpose.

"ALL THINGS WORK TOGETHER FOR GOOD TO THEM THAT LOVE GOD"

The atrocities of Jeffrey Dahmer and Hilter were GOOD.  The misery that Satan inflicts on the World is GOOD.  Amen?


----------



## welderguy (Feb 14, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Thank you for your explanation.
> 
> Lets try an experiment .  Put a red pen in front of you and a blue pen.  Pick one up. Which was it, the blue one or the red one?  God has always known which one you were gonna pick up, right?  Was there a possibility that you would pick one that God had not already foreseen?  How about your socks?  How about what to have for breakfast?  How about when you sin?   Where was the choice?  I know it _seemed_ like a choice from your end but how could it be?
> 
> ...



Here's the way I see it.
I could have picked the red one and God certainly knew it.I could have picked the blue one just as freely...and God also certainly knew it.The fact that God knew my choices is irrelevant to this discussion because it's an established given that He knows everything regardless.
But(in time), we have the freedom to choose our actions.If and when we make a bad choice,He promised that He would correct us(His people.) By the same token, if and when we make a good choice,by faith,He promised to reward us.
Why all this? To bring us to an expected end.An end that was predetermined before He created us.


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## ambush80 (Feb 14, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Here's the way I see it.
> I could have picked the red one and God certainly knew it.I could have picked the blue one just as freely...and God also certainly knew it.The fact that God knew my choices is irrelevant to this discussion because it's an established given that He knows everything regardless.
> But(in time), we have the freedom to choose our actions.If and when we make a bad choice,He promised that He would correct us(His people.) By the same token, if and when we make a good choice,by faith,He promised to reward us.
> Why all this? To bring us to an expected end.An end that was predetermined before He created us.




Type RED or BLUE in your next reply.


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## bullethead (Feb 14, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Here's the way I see it.
> I could have picked the red one and God certainly knew it.I could have picked the blue one just as freely...and God also certainly knew it.The fact that God knew my choices is irrelevant to this discussion because it's an established given that He knows everything regardless.
> But(in time), we have the freedom to choose our actions.If and when we make a bad choice,He promised that He would correct us(His people.) By the same token, if and when we make a good choice,by faith,He promised to reward us.
> Why all this? To bring us to an expected end.An end that was predetermined before He created us.



What rewards do Hitler,Dahmer and the good old prince of darkness get? How are the rest of us rewarded because of their actions?


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## welderguy (Feb 14, 2016)

bullethead said:


> What rewards do Hitler,Dahmer and the good old prince of darkness get? How are the rest of us rewarded because of their actions?



1.not sure
2.we're not


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## ambush80 (Feb 14, 2016)

Welder,

Type RED or BLUE please.  Just that simple.


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## welderguy (Feb 14, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Welder,
> 
> Type RED or BLUE please.  Just that simple.



Blue


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## ambush80 (Feb 14, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Blue



Was there any chance that you might have chosen red instead?


----------



## welderguy (Feb 14, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Was there any chance that you might have chosen red instead?



Yes.a very good chance.


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## ambush80 (Feb 14, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Yes.a very good chance.



Did God know that you were gonna choose blue?

With that in mind, what are the chances you could have chosen red?  If you chose red then God would have been surprised.  But that doesn't make sense, does it?


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## ambush80 (Feb 14, 2016)

Pray, Welder.  Pray very hard.  Your mind is about to betray you.


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## welderguy (Feb 14, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Did God know that you were gonna choose blue?
> 
> With that in mind, what are the chances you could have chosen red?  If you chose red then God would have been surprised.  But that doesn't make sense, does it?



Yes,He knows everything.I could have chosen red just as easily.If I had,He would have known that just as easily.No surprises.Makes perfect sense to me.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 14, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Yes,He knows everything.I could have chosen red just as easily.If I had,He would have known that just as easily.No surprises.Makes perfect sense to me.




Your blocking it.  

If you were gonna choose red He would have known it.  Then what was the chance that you would have chosen blue?  Absolutely none.

You will do what has been written.  You are without choice.


----------



## welderguy (Feb 14, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Your blocking it.
> 
> If you were gonna choose red He would have known it.  Then what was the chance that you would have chosen blue?  Absolutely none.
> 
> You will do what has been written.  You are without choice.



No sir, I'm not messing with you.I'm being straight up. God allows choices in temporal matters.He gives us guidelines for living for a purpose.We are accountable for our actions.The whole bible is full of "if thens" showing us what to do and what not to do.And it also shows us the results.


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## welderguy (Feb 15, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> You will do what has been written.  You are without choice.



So, I guess you had no choice but to bail out of the conversation all of a sudden,huh?


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## ambush80 (Feb 15, 2016)

welderguy said:


> No sir, I'm not messing with you.I'm being straight up. God allows choices in temporal matters.He gives us guidelines for living for a purpose.We are accountable for our actions.The whole bible is full of "if thens" showing us what to do and what not to do.And it also shows us the results.



So He didn't know which color you would choose?


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## welderguy (Feb 15, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> So He didn't know which color you would choose?



Yes,He did,in both possible instances.Because He knows the end from the beginning.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 15, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Yes,He did,in both possible instances.Because He knows the end from the beginning.



Where was your choice?  If you were only going to do one thing that He knew you were going to do and one thing only, where was the choice?

There are no "both possible instances".  There is only the ONE THING that He knew you were going to do.


----------



## welderguy (Feb 15, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Where was your choice?  If you were only going to do one thing that He knew you were going to do and one thing only, where was the choice?
> 
> There are no "both possible instances".  There is only the ONE THING that He knew you were going to do.



You are putting the cart before the horse.The CHOICE that is made is the choice He knew you would make.simple.

If you made the other choice,then that's the one He knew you would make.

God's able to know all things,period.No limitations.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 15, 2016)

welderguy said:


> You are putting the cart before the horse.The CHOICE that is made is the choice He knew you would make.simple.
> 
> If you made the other choice,then that's the one He knew you would make.
> 
> God's able to know all things,period.No limitations.



You should take a breath, maybe a couple of hours, and think about what you're saying here.  I think you will realize that it doesn't make sense.

If He knew you would write Red, then there isn't any reality where you write Blue.  It doesn't exist as a possibility.

Don't respond right away.  Come back later after you've thought it through.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 15, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Ok.let's use a crude analogy.
> Let's say you have an old style typewriter(the kind with ink ribbon).
> You put a blank white paper in it.Now,you have a choice to press any key on the keyboard.At this very moment,there's a choice.Once you choose,it's a done deal.The letter or whatever that you chose is on the paper in ink,permanently.
> Ok, now imagine God ,who is not bound by time restraints as we are,takes out the sheet of paper,goes to the xerox machine and makes a copy,then faxes it back to Himself to the moment in time which was say 15 minutes earlier.Now he has an exact duplicate of the CHOICE you made,in His hand and He knows the choice you will make before you make it.simple huh?
> ...



This is absolute nonsense.

Don't over complicate it.  Stay with what we started with.  Blue or Red?  Show me the reality where you pick the one that God didn't know which one you would pick .

There is no reality where God didn't know which one you would pick.  You could only pick the one that He knew you would pick.


----------



## welderguy (Feb 15, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> This is absolute nonsense.
> 
> Don't over complicate it.  Stay with what we started with.  Blue or Red?  Show me the reality where you pick the one that God didn't know which one you would pick .
> 
> There is no reality where God didn't know which one you would pick.  You could only pick the one that He knew you would pick.



Wow.you weren't joking about the 7year old level were you?

I never said God wouldn't know anything.Hes OMNISCIENT.

I don't know how much more I can dumb it down for you.Its simple.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 15, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Wow.you weren't joking about the 7year old level were you?
> 
> I never said God wouldn't know anything.Hes OMNISCIENT.
> 
> I don't know how much more I can dumb it down for you.Its simple.



I'll answer for you because you won't.

Did God know which one you were gonna pick?  Welder: "Yes".

Could you have picked one that God didn't foresee? Welder:  "No."

Was there a possibility that you could have picked any other one than the one you were destined to pick?  Welder: "No."

If there is only one possible outcome, is there any choice?  Welder "No."

With a simple yes or no, change the ones where I'm wrong.


----------



## welderguy (Feb 15, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> I'll answer for you because you won't.
> 
> 1.Did God know which one you were gonna pick?
> 
> ...




1.yes
2.no
3.It's a false premise.God did not predestine the choice.
4.another false premise.There were two possible outcomes and two possible choices.Only the ultmate final outcome(eternity) never changed.This is the detail that keeps stumping you.This is what is predestined.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 15, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> I'll answer for you because you won't.
> 
> 1. Did God know which one you were gonna pick?  Welder: "Yes".
> 
> ...





welderguy said:


> 1.yes
> 
> 2.no
> 
> ...



It's stumping you my friend.  Say this and mean it if you can. 

"There were two possible outcomes but only one of them could happen". 

 Let that sink in.  Let it stew around in your head.  Say it slowly and repeatedly out loud and really think about the words and what they mean.  Focus real hard on the word "possible".


----------



## welderguy (Feb 15, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> "There were two possible outcomes but only one of them could happen".



^^This makes no sense.It contradicts itself. It's exactly like you are saying "There are two possible outcomes but only one is possible."

Explain to me why God would not allow either to be chosen?

You've already stated that it's because He knew beforehand which one would be chosen.I agree ,but that statement applies no matter which choice was made.

I'm suspecting that you don't want to be held accountable for your bad choices.That you want to be able to say "Even though I did not obey,it was predetermined to happen so I had to do it."
That's balogni...and you know it.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 15, 2016)

welderguy said:


> ^^This makes no sense.It contradicts itself. It's exactly like you are saying "There are two possible outcomes but only one is possible."
> 
> Explain to me why God would not allow either to be chosen?
> 
> ...



You said this:

"There were two possible outcomes and two possible choices.Only the ultmate final outcome(eternity) never changed.This is what is predestined."

Which is the same thing as this:

"There are two possible outcomes but only one is possible." or in other words "There were two possible outcomes but only one of them could happen". 

And I agree with you that it makes no sense.  It's called a contradiction.  You have to remember,  I don't believe in any of this.  But if it were true, if there were an omniscient God,  then there are no choices.  That's YOUR problem to try to resolve.  Not mine.  I'm just trying to help you.  I want you to see how to apply logic to your beliefs.  

If what I've said true, what you have agreed with me on, you could not have typed Red.  This has implications about guilt and innocence that you will have to come to grips with.

This omniscient God nonsense is the bed you have made and now you will have to lie in it.


----------



## welderguy (Feb 15, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> You said this:
> 
> "There were two possible outcomes and two possible choices.Only the ultmate final outcome(eternity) never changed.This is what is predestined."
> 
> ...



Going back to the blue pen red pen choice scenario:

I said I choose the blue one,and if in fact I really did choose the blue one then yes God knew it.

BUT, the red one could have been chosen, because if in fact the red one was chosen,then God would NOT have known the blue one was chosen.He would have known the red one was chosen.

The fact that He knows, did not dictate the choice that was made.It simply means He knows whatever you ended up choosing.That's all.
You are trying to force God into a corner and take accountability away from us.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 15, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Going back to the blue pen red pen choice scenario:
> 
> I said I choose the blue one,and if in fact I really did choose the blue one then yes God knew it.
> 
> ...



Is it this:

_"I said I choose the blue one,and if in fact I really did choose the blue one then yes God knew it."_

Or this:

_"the red one could have been chosen, because if in fact the red one was chosen.  He would have known the red one was chosen."_

It can't be both.

And this:
_
"God would NOT have known the blue one was chosen"_

is an impossibility.

And this:

_"He knows whatever you ended up choosing."_

Means that you couldn't choose the other one.

You have put God in this box with your silly belief in His omniscience.


----------



## welderguy (Feb 15, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Is it this:
> 
> _"I said I choose the blue one,and if in fact I really did choose the blue one then yes God knew it."_
> 
> ...



It can't be both,but it can be either.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 15, 2016)

welderguy said:


> It can't be both,but it can be either.




Do the experiment five times.  Say you pick the pens in this order:  Blue, Blue , Red, Blue, Red.  The next time you go Red, Blue, Red, Blue, Blue.  Were you going to do it any other way than the way He knew you would?

Do it a thousand times.  Do it a million times.  He will know the EXACT order you will do it.  Every time.  It might take you a week to do it a thousand times. A week in which He knew every pen you would choose, every time.  Each time you pick up a pen, where was the choice?  

You can apply this new revelation to anything.

Enjoy.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 15, 2016)

welderguy said:


> It can't be both,but it can be either.




It WILL be one or the other.  He knows which one it is.  That means that it was not going to be the other one, not ever.  It never will be the one that He knew it wasn't gonna be.  There was no choice.

Surely you see that by now.


----------



## welderguy (Feb 15, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> It WILL be one or the other.  He knows which one it is.  That means that it was not going to be the other one, not ever.  It never will be the one that He knew it wasn't gonna be.  There was no choice.
> 
> Surely you see that by now.



INSANITY  

Let's move on shall we? I think we just need to agree to disagree.

Now, since you insist that we have no choices, do you also believe that every child molester should be set free because he/she had no choice whether or not to commit the atrocity?

Or what about when the cop pulls you over for speeding. Do you tell him you had no choice but to speed because it was predetermined that you would speed?

It's ridiculous,isn't it?


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 15, 2016)

welderguy said:


> INSANITY
> 
> Let's move on shall we? I think we just need to agree to disagree.
> 
> ...



I don't believe in an omniscient being so I don't have the same problems as you do.


----------



## welderguy (Feb 15, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> I don't believe in an omniscient being so I don't have the same problems as you do.



your unbelief in God is not relevant to the questions I asked,because you already said we have no choice in the things we do.

Simple yes or no question:
Did the child molester have a choice or not?


----------



## gemcgrew (Feb 16, 2016)

welderguy said:


> The fact that He knows, did not dictate the choice that was made.It simply means He knows whatever you ended up choosing.That's all.


God determined your choice. You have no freedom, relative to God, to choose different. God completely controls your choices.



welderguy said:


> You are trying to force God into a corner and take accountability away from us.


We are not accountable because we have freedom in any meaningful way. Rather, we are accountable because we are not free. God determined a judgement.


----------



## gemcgrew (Feb 16, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Simple yes or no question:
> Did the child molester have a choice or not?


Yes. A choice that is caused by God and according to His divine purpose.

Welder, you are holding to a contradiction. God's sovereignty and man's freedom of choice are incompatible.

It appears that you believe, that in order for man to be held accountable, man must have freedom of choice.


----------



## Israel (Feb 16, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> God determined your choice. You have no freedom, relative to God, to choose different. God completely controls your choices.
> 
> 
> We are not accountable because we have freedom in any meaningful way. Rather, we are accountable because we are not free. God determined a judgement.



^^^^^amen^^^^^
A man may be awoken to the righteousness of God. In that he may agree with God in all His righteous judgment.
God has judged the world for one thing...and Jesus for another. One, for condemnation, One for glory.
A witness is either found credible or impeachable, but if he seeks to escape the wrath of impeachment, of being found a liar, he will, to the extent he has seen this judgment, make every appeal to God through Jesus Christ to be found as true as the True and Faithful witness.
The remnants of religion will exert every pressure to have this man think of himself as good that he might offer this goodness to God as his expiation. But the judgment is already levied against all of a man's own goodness. If this is not yet seen in Christ...it shall be.
A man brings only his yes and no, and all his agreements, to what...and whom, shall be made plain.


----------



## welderguy (Feb 16, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> God's sovereignty and man's freedom of choice are incompatible.



This is where you and I disagree.
He's sovereign even through our choices. He has the expected end set,which is immovable.


----------



## Israel (Feb 16, 2016)

Grace becomes more precious in my sight with each day. I live in and enjoy all the blessings of God through Christ. But, I would be a liar to not say some I hold in such little regard as to they're being practicably ignored. 
I know this because in my flesh is branded a very thing only grace and faith could reveal, I do not know all things pertaining to me.
Those practicable ignored, yet real, persist however...and this is grace. It does not excuse me, but it has, and does, provide me the one thing at which I have been at odds as a man, time. It speeds up in my pleasures, attenuates in my pains.
The grace that would allow me slip its surly bonds is also the same grace that supplies it to its ultimate purpose, that I might repent.
Make good use of your enemy till it be found friend.
Be zealous, therefore.


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## gemcgrew (Feb 16, 2016)

welderguy said:


> This is where you and I disagree.
> He's sovereign even through our choices. He has the expected end set,which is immovable.


If you really believe this, then we are in agreement.


----------



## welderguy (Feb 16, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> If you really believe this, then we are in agreement.



I believe it with all my being.
We cannot separate the two(sovereignty and man's choices).They must go hand in hand according to His purpose.

At face value they seem to contradict,and this is a stumbling block to many,but they do not contradict,but rather work together in perfect harmony.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 16, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> God determined your choice. You have no freedom, relative to God, to choose different. God completely controls your choices.
> 
> 
> We are not accountable because we have freedom in any meaningful way. Rather, we are accountable because we are not free. God determined a judgement.



Can you explain to me how "your choice" fits in with predestination?  Choice seems like a word that you ought to abandon.


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## bullethead (Feb 16, 2016)

It seems that the worse a person is or has been, the more they think they not only know a god but also seem to elevate themselves to being elect and chosen above all others and all the while convincing them self that they had no choice in the life they led. The psychology is fascinating.


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## Israel (Feb 16, 2016)

bullethead said:


> It seems that the worse a person is or has been, the more they think they not only know a god but also seem to elevate themselves to being elect and chosen above all others and all the while convincing them self that they had no choice in the life they led. The psychology is fascinating.



The elevation is not above others. But out from one's self to where others may be seen and known as real as one's self.


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## bullethead (Feb 16, 2016)

Israel said:


> The elevation is not above others. But out from one's self to where others may be seen and known as real as one's self.



Maybe that is the case in your case, but a god is not needed to elevate one's self.

Posts from others who claim to be elect certainly indicate the elevation above others.


----------



## 660griz (Feb 16, 2016)

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. 
Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. 
Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? 
Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?

Epicurus (c. 341 - c. 270 BC)


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## ambush80 (Feb 16, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I believe it with all my being.
> We cannot separate the two(sovereignty and man's choices).They must go hand in hand according to His purpose.
> 
> At face value they seem to contradict,and this is a stumbling block to many,but they do not contradict,but rather work together in perfect harmony.



Can you explain this?

If you throw out Bible verses then you have to discern them for me because I'm unrepentant.  You have to explain what they mean.


----------



## welderguy (Feb 16, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Can you explain this?
> 
> If you throw out Bible verses then you have to discern them for me because I'm unrepentant.  You have to explain what they mean.



Maybe you should just focus on the repenting part first, then all the other.

Besides, Ive gone full circle with it already to no avail.Ive exhausted my mental and verbal capacities for now.I enjoyed it though.You asked some great questions.


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## ambush80 (Feb 16, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Maybe you should just focus on the repenting part first, then all the other.
> 
> Besides, Ive gone full circle with it already to no avail.Ive exhausted my mental and verbal capacities for now.I enjoyed it though.You asked some great questions.




This issue was one of the hammer strikes that shattered my repentance.  If this can't be answered (it's so simple) then the rest is useless.

I remember "Laying things at the foot of the Cross".  The pile got too high to ignore.


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## gemcgrew (Feb 16, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Can you explain to me how "your choice" fits in with predestination?  Choice seems like a word that you ought to abandon.


Every choice that you make is predestined.


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## welderguy (Feb 16, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> This issue was one of the hammer strikes that shattered my repentance.  If this can't be answered (it's so simple) then the rest is useless.
> 
> I remember "Laying things at the foot of the Cross".  The pile got too high to ignore.



If I honestly thought you really had a sincere interest in it for your soul,I would stay up all night trying to explain it.But I get a feeling you only want to ridicule and suppress it.So, I will decline.


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## ambush80 (Feb 16, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> Every choice that you make is predestined.



Are you using the definition of "choice" from Webster or somewhere else?


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 16, 2016)

welderguy said:


> If I honestly thought you really had a sincere interest in it for your soul,I would stay up all night trying to explain it.But I get a feeling you only want to ridicule and suppress it.So, I will decline.



I really want to understand how you square it.  I honestly do.  Look at the questions I ask Gemcgrew.   I'm truly curious about what you do in your mind.


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## ambush80 (Feb 16, 2016)

This is what Webster says:

_
CHOICE

    : the act of choosing : the act of picking or deciding between two or more possibilities

    : the opportunity or power to choose between two or more possibilities : the opportunity or power to make a decision

    : a range of things that can be chosen


Full Definition of choice

    1
    :  the act of choosing :  selection <finding it hard to make a choice>

    2
    :  power of choosing :  option <you have no choice>

    3
    a :  the best part :  cream b :  a person or thing chosen <she was their first choice>

    4
    :  a number and variety to choose among <a plan with a wide choice of options>

    5
    :  care in selecting

    6
    :  a grade of meat between prime and good

of choice

    :  to be preferred_

The definition speaks to Options and Possibilities.  How can either of those be squared with predestination?



Here is the definition of Choose:

_CHOOSE

    transitive verb

    1
    a :  to select freely and after consideration <choose a career> b :  to decide on especially by vote :  elect <chose her as captain>

    2
    a :  to have a preference for <choose one car over another> b :  decide <chose to go by train>
    intransitive verb

    1
    :  to make a selection <finding it hard to choose>

    2
    :  to take an alternative —used after cannot and usually followed by but <when earth is so kind, men cannot choose but be happy — J. A. Froude>_

How does one "Select Freely" in a predestined situation?


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## gemcgrew (Feb 16, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Are you using the definition of "choice" from Webster or somewhere else?


We can go with Webster. I am about to go hit golf balls with the family. You pick the definition and I will address it when I get back home.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 16, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> We can go with Webster. I am about to go hit golf balls with the family. You pick the definition and I will address it when I get back home.




Nice.  I posted the definition from Webster above.  I would love to discuss it.  Have fun!!


----------



## gemcgrew (Feb 16, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> The definition speaks to Options and Possibilities.  How can either of those be squared with predestination?


As far as choice is concerned, what does it matter if there are 2 or 2000 options? Are you not going to choose according to that which bears the strongest influence upon your mind? The strongest influence is also predestined.



ambush80 said:


> How does one "Select Freely" in a predestined situation?


One doesn't. There may be an appearance of "selecting freely" within the relationship that exist between created objects. God controls everything about anything.


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## Israel (Feb 17, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> As far as choice is concerned, what does it matter if there are 2 or 2000 options? Are you not going to choose according to that which bears the strongest influence upon your mind? The strongest influence is also predestined.
> 
> 
> One doesn't. There may be an appearance of "selecting freely" within the relationship that exist between created objects. God controls everything about anything.



Liberty tasted.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 17, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> As far as choice is concerned, what does it matter if there are 2 or 2000 options? Are you not going to choose according to that which bears the strongest influence upon your mind? The strongest influence is also predestined.



It seems like the word choice or even the concept of choice is moot.  For all practical purposes there is only one "option", option in quotes because that word is now meaningless.  Instead of asking someone "Which flavor of ice cream do you want?  You should state "Speak the flavor of ice cream has God planned for you?"  You just shouldn't use words like choice or option or select anymore.  They're useless to you.




gemcgrew said:


> One doesn't. There may be an appearance of "selecting freely" within the relationship that exist between created objects. God controls everything about anything.



Again, the word is meaningless and should be removed from your vocabulary.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 17, 2016)

Israel said:


> Liberty tasted.



Yes, Isreal.  You are free from responsibility.  All the sucky things you have done were part of God's plan.  Same with all  the sucky things you might do in the future.  Taste the freedom.

Forgive yourself or not.  It's not really up to you.


----------



## gemcgrew (Feb 17, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> It seems like the word choice or even the concept of choice is moot.  For all practical purposes there is only one "option", option in quotes because that word is now meaningless.  Instead of asking someone "Which flavor of ice cream do you want?  You should state "Speak the flavor of ice cream has God planned for you?"  You just shouldn't use words like choice or option or select anymore.  They're useless to you.





ambush80 said:


> Again, the word is meaningless and should be removed from your vocabulary.


Do you actually believe that a choice can be made freely? Free from the influence of desire, convenience, preference, coercion, etc.? Is a choice that is influenced, free? Of course not.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 17, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> Do you actually believe that a choice can be made freely? Free from the influence of desire, convenience, preference, coercion, etc.? Is a choice that is influenced, free? Of course not.



I would say if it's influenced it's still free.  Even people who are being tortured unto death for information can still refuse to talk.  

You know that sort I of believe in the absence of freewill but for different reasons that you do.  It has nothing to do with an omniscient, sovereign being.   I'm not completely sold on the philosophical argument yet.


----------



## gemcgrew (Feb 17, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> I would say if it's influenced it's still free.


Free is a relative term. Choice would have to be free from "something". That "something" is influence, in this context.


ambush80 said:


> You know that sort I of believe in the absence of freewill but for different reasons that you do.  It has nothing to do with an omniscient, sovereign being.   I'm not completely sold on the philosophical argument yet.


I understand.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 17, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> Free is a relative term. Choice would have to be free from "something". That "something" is influence, in this context.
> 
> I understand.



That's right.  Freedom can be put on a continuum.


----------



## gemcgrew (Feb 18, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> That's right.  Freedom can be put on a continuum.


"I would say if it's influenced it's still free."

You can run, but you can not hide.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 18, 2016)

Why doesn't predestination relieve us from responsibility?
I've heard it said that man’s inability does not remove his moral responsibility. That we are without excuse.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 18, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> "I would say if it's influenced it's still free."
> 
> You can run, but you can not hide.



Fair enough.  I couldn't think of an instance where the measure of influence is zero, but I can't think of one where it is 100% either.  An action, proprietary to a particular assemblage of brain matter, a neurological tick or a reflex like breathing is fairly close to 0% influence.  I recognize that examining "influence" is an infinite regression problem, but if I insert randomness, even at the smallest level, it seems to nullify predestination.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 18, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why doesn't predestination relieve us from responsibility?
> I've heard it said that man’s inability does not remove his moral responsibility. That we are without excuse.



....and that, my friend, is a contradiction.  I'm disappointed (not that you should care) at how you've resolved the issue with your theory of Limited Free Will.  It's neither Biblical nor rational.  I think you should go back to the drawing board.


----------



## Israel (Feb 18, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Yes, Isreal.  You are free from responsibility.  All the sucky things you have done were part of God's plan.  Same with all  the sucky things you might do in the future.  Taste the freedom.
> 
> Forgive yourself or not.  It's not really up to you.


You recently asked a question regarding what appears to you as my scant use of scripture in our discussions, preferring instead (as it appears to you) an oft reference to the "work of Christ". You then wondered whether I might have the "same problems" with scripture as you seem to. (As I believe you also mentioned elsewhere...it was precisely their investigation, by you, that "led" you away from the faith) You may, again, as you said, (in another place) prefer one word answers, the sufficient "yes or no", so feel free to stop at the end of this concession (yes, a paragraph..."indulge me/forgive me")
No.

But, I am what I am (to you perhaps sucky, in past present and future) and the liberty in my continuance may appear as further proof of this (to you). But, I do, and have a continuance...to not only be unconcerned with whether you are reading this far, but to be equally unconcerned with appearing a fool to you in doing so. This liberty is not constrained in any measure by your opinion of me, as it is no more constrained than that of my own, of myself. A fool I am. I am not ashamed of the freedom that has made me so. Nor the One who gives it.

The proclamation of "Jesus is Lord" the apostle Paul says, coming from a heart of faith in the resurrection, is to a man's salvation. The "how" of my heart's knowing is what fills these many pages with their exchanges, but not _my_ particular heart, but any man's. 

"If you know a something (one says) how come I/we don't?" 

"If you really "know" that something...show us the knowing...it should be easily demonstrable" 

"Ahhh (another may say) your knowing must be deficient, you haven't demonstrated to me the simple..."

Regardless. If a man believes in his heart God raised Christ from the dead and confesses with his mouth..."Jesus is Lord" he shall be saved.  You probably know the rest "for with the heart..." Forgive any transposition of mine, unless you see it noteworthy of correction or further enlightenment.

No, I have no "problems" with the scripture...but that does not exclude my own need of examination of what I affirm, for the little I  may see...or the greater I yet may not, is not judged of me. I am only "called" to be faithful to what I know. 

"Jesus is Lord"...

Of the many things said in this regard, and that may come of this, and indeed do..."Jesus is wonderful", "Jesus is great"..."Jesus is this or that..." according to the speaker...the writings of the precise words of entrance remain the same...simple, short, and quite definitive.
In their precision, much is excluded..."Jesus is MY Lord"...which, if true, does not deny their benefit...but the scripture remains remarkably short. All the things that may be found in "Lord" are not explored precisely there...though they certainly are elsewhere in the scripture. No, the simple proclamation appears no more a confession of fact...from the speaker...a fact no more than what appears any other "fact" in proclamation, "The sun is bright!"   "this day is cold", "that stove is hot" "that man is the man I saw shoot another"...

A witness may have his proclamation explored, (and indeed, he may even explore it himself). "what do you mean the stove is hot?...was it flesh searing hot...or just too hot to hold ones hand upon for more than a few seconds?" Or, "are you sure that man was the only man you saw with a gun? Did you look at all other men present? Isn't it possible that someone else shot?"

To the Floridian a cold day is one thing, perhaps, to the Vermonter, quite another.

What then could possibly accrue to a mere statement of fact, even "Jesus is Lord"...if it can be left to so many perspectives questioned...so many relative degrees able to be introduced in refutation...to the very limits of a man's knowing...of anything...and everything...at all?
And what then...could possibly be of any merit in character accrued to such a statement? Is there any?


(This appears, for now, your "cue", Ambush)

The "cross" examination. 
"When you say "Jesus is Lord"...(in this case) "Israel" ...."is it not merely to find some psychological escape or excuse for your being, and the record does plainly show...having been... such a "sucky" person? To merely use this "Jesus" being in control of everything...(and remember you are under oath here) for do you not also agree with the words "all authority in heaven and earth is mine?"...or don't you?"

Do you also believe, as the record could indicate, (you have surely born all the markings of a sanctimonious self righteous puke of a man) you think this confession...therefore in some way makes you better than others? That you have some sort of exclusive enlightenment, privy only to you and those with whom you consort, yet denied many others, over whom your only reason for this confession is to cause you to appear superior?

Let's go further, for the record, do you not inwardly delight (be honest now, you are before the "court") that this "Jesus device" is merely to gratify your own twisted sense of justice that causes such said delight to rise inside you when in considering the ultimate destruction of any, and all, that would oppose your remarkably solipsistic and vain view of being (as though a "god" would take any interest in you...specifically)...even to embrace a sudden appearing of this said "god" to your salvation...and their utter destruction? Again, remember, you are before the "court".

Now, Mr. Israel, to put the final nail in the coffin, (so to speak) in the exploration of this twisted psychological state in which we find you, we have this final bit of disclosure. Isn't this all simply a device, used by you, and so many others... for control of what you know you have no control over, and thus, by seeking to enter into this "control"...even to its manifest exertion toward the others...seeming "outside" by what you may excuse as some sort of perverse evangelism, to whit, the use of your mouth and words in such exertion as to attempt to control them...make of you the very "god" of which you, in so many fey statements proclaim you are not? Don't you the see the utter contemptibility of yourself...trying to be what you say you worship as above all others...but really, and only precisely...that you use to assume the mantle of that very one...in the sight of all others? Are you not then, Mr Israel, guilty of the very thing of which you accuse others...of "trying" to be god?

Yes.

I am in all ways like every other man, (especially those I have accused) and surely no better, and guilty as charged.

And my only appeal must remain to the Supreme Court.
Jesus is Lord.
And, it's obvious I need a lawyer, a _good_ one, one to advocate on my behalf.

The cross is indeed the mechanism.
The cross examination finds me out...every time.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 18, 2016)

Israel said:


> You recently asked a question regarding what appears to you as my scant use of scripture in our discussions, preferring instead (as it appears to you) an oft reference to the "work of Christ". You then wondered whether I might have the "same problems" with scripture as you seem to. (As I believe you also mentioned elsewhere...it was precisely their investigation, by you, that "led" you away from the faith) You may, again, as you said, (in another place) prefer one word answers, the sufficient "yes or no", so feel free to stop at the end of this concession (yes, a paragraph..."indulge me/forgive me")
> No.



A long explanation might is often necessary to convey a particularly difficult or complicated set of ideas.  I personally find it distracting and tedious when in exchange for a succinct dialogue someone chooses to be unnecessarily artistic, like a preacher does.



Israel said:


> But, I am what I am (to you perhaps sucky, in past present and future) and the liberty in my continuance may appear as further proof of this (to you). But, I do, and have a continuance...to not only be unconcerned with whether you are reading this far, but to be equally unconcerned with appearing a fool to you in doing so. This liberty is not constrained in any measure by your opinion of me, as it is no more constrained than that of my own, of myself. A fool I am. I am not ashamed of the freedom that has made me so. Nor the One who gives it.



I think you like the self deprecating image of yourself that you often put forth.  I suppose it's part and parcel if your model for perfection is a martyr.  I get it.  I get it already.  I've stated that I think viewing oneself as filthy rags is probably not psychologically healthy and that it skews one's ability to converse with people in a meaningful way, and by that I mean in a way that's reflective of reality, especially when in one's mind the person on the other side of the table is filthy rags as well, but that's not really my business.



Israel said:


> The proclamation of "Jesus is Lord" the apostle Paul says, coming from a heart of faith in the resurrection, is to a man's salvation. The "how" of my heart's knowing is what fills these many pages with their exchanges, but not _my_ particular heart, but any man's.
> 
> "If you know a something (one says) how come I/we don't?"
> 
> ...



"With the Heart" over and over again.  Do you think that it's impossible to be fooled "In your heart"?  Is the "Heart" somehow immune to concluding anything but the truth? Do you really think that "In my heart" is a good metric for anything other than a completely subjective experience.  Don't you have enough examples of how someone's "heart" can lead them to commit great errors in judgement?  Please come up with better evidence.



Israel said:


> No, I have no "problems" with the scripture...but that does not exclude my own need of examination of what I affirm, for the little I  may see...or the greater I yet may not, is not judged of me. I am only "called" to be faithful to what I know.
> 
> "Jesus is Lord"...
> 
> ...



"It's hot".  "It's bright".  "It's cold".  "He did it".  Come on, Man.  You're a smart cat.  Surely you see the difference between these statements.  If you say "He did it (shot a guy, stole an apple, rose from the dead.....)" you better have pretty good proof, even more so if your claim is extraordinary.  You can proclaim anyone is Lord and that would make it true for you but that doesn't make it true for everybody.  If you wanna say "He's Lord over you, too. You just won't admit it." well,  I really don't know what to do with that.  It makes me think of you in a particular way and that's just the way it is.




Israel said:


> (This appears, for now, your "cue", Ambush)
> 
> The "cross" examination.
> "When you say "Jesus is Lord"...(in this case) "Israel" ...."is it not merely to find some psychological escape or excuse for your being, and the record does plainly show...having been... such a "sucky" person? To merely use this "Jesus" being in control of everything...(and remember you are under oath here) for do you not also agree with the words "all authority in heaven and earth is mine?"...or don't you?"
> ...



I'm not at all as accusatory of you as you are of yourself.  This drama that you put forth doesn't really depict what I think of believers.  I simply think that you've been fooled.  Happens to the best of us.  To that you might say "I'd rather be a fool" to which I would reply "Have fun with that."



Israel said:


> Yes.
> 
> I am in all ways like every other man, (especially those I have accused) and surely no better, and guilty as charged.
> 
> ...



Again,  the cross is the mechanism for what exactly? Because for me it represents a mechanism by which people will believe the most fantastic and irrational claims about reality.  It's really quite interesting.


----------



## Israel (Feb 18, 2016)

But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children, and say, 'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.' "For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon!'…The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds."


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 18, 2016)

Israel said:


> But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children, and say, 'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.' "For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon!'…The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds."



Sorry, I'm unrepentant and therefore unable to discern scripture.  It's foolishness to me, as has been prophesied.  You'll have to tell me what that means in your own carnal words.


----------



## Israel (Feb 18, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> A long explanation might is often necessary to convey a particularly difficult or complicated set of ideas.  I personally find it distracting and tedious when in exchange for a succinct dialogue someone chooses to be unnecessarily artistic, like a preacher does.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yet...you seem remarkably unamazed at how quickly a man forgets himself?


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 18, 2016)

Israel said:


> Yet...you seem remarkably unamazed at how quickly a man forgets himself?



You should watch the Derren Brown videos I posted, maybe even more of his good works.  He made a guy believe that his hand was stuck to his own head.  Of course he explains that he can only get people to do things that they already want to do.  

But, yes.  I am amazed (and flummoxed) by what people will believe.


----------



## Israel (Feb 18, 2016)

Why would you believe his explanation of the "how"? As in "he can only get people to do things that they already want to do"?
What allows him to see the people wanting their hand stuck to their head?


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 18, 2016)

Israel said:


> Why would you believe his explanation of the "how"? As in "he can only get people to do things that they already want to do"?
> What allows him to see the people wanting their hand stuck to their head?



I don't believe it because he says it.  It's well documented.  If you ask people to do something that makes them uncomfortable they snap out of hypnosis.  It's well documented that some people are more suggestible than others.  Some people are impossible to hypnotize.  Apparently, if someone isn't into the gag then they won't participate.  All hypnotists and those that study hypnotism (self or otherwise) will tell you that a willing participant is crucial to the success of the experience.

Please watch the videos and tell me what you think.


----------



## Israel (Feb 18, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> You should watch the Derren Brown videos I posted, maybe even more of his good works.  He made a guy believe that his hand was stuck to his own head.  Of course he explains that he can only get people to do things that they already want to do.
> 
> But, yes.  I am amazed (and flummoxed) by what people will believe.



I, not so much anymore.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 18, 2016)

Israel said:


> I, not so much anymore.




Of course not.  But I find it ironic that once you opened the door to the veracity of supernatural notions for yourself you closed the door to the veracity of the supernatural notions of other people.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 18, 2016)

I think most people both Atheist, Christian, and possibly even the Pagans believe in limited freewill. We just don't now how much we are in charge vs. God or other forces.


----------



## Israel (Feb 18, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Of course not.  But I find it ironic that once you opened the door to the veracity of supernatural notions for yourself you closed the door to the veracity of the supernatural notions of other people.



Ahhh, my _irony_ is in not receiving the "supernatural notions" of...whom? Quite to the contrary, I am well convinced of supernatural notions of _all_.


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## ambush80 (Feb 18, 2016)

Israel said:


> Ahhh, my _irony_ is in not receiving the "supernatural notions" of...whom? Quite to the contrary, I am well convinced of supernatural notions of _all_.



You believe in the miracles of Jesus, which fall under the category of supernatural phenomena.  Do you also believe in The power of Thor's hammer or Poseidon's trident or eight armed, blue skinned, elephant headed gods?


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## ambush80 (Feb 18, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think most people both Atheist, Christian, and possibly even the Pagans believe in limited freewill. We just don't now how much we are in charge vs. God or other forces.



Possibly, but as a philosophical argument.  It most certainly isn't scriptural.


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## ambush80 (Feb 18, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think most people both Atheist, Christian, and possibly even the Pagans believe in limited freewill. We just don't now how much we are in charge vs. God or other forces.



_God is Omniscient
QUESTION: What Bible verses say God is omniscient?

ANSWER:

God is Omniscient - Old Testament Evidence
“Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please” (Isaiah 46:9-10).

“Who can fathom the Spirit of the LORD, or instruct the LORD as his counselor? Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge, or showed him the path of understanding?” (Isaiah 40:13-14).

“Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD” (Psalm 139:4).

“O LORD, you have searched me and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways” (Psalm 139:1-3).

“My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. How precious to me are your thoughts, God! How vast is the sum of them! Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand—when I awake, I am still with you” (Psalm 139:15-16).

“Can anyone teach knowledge to God, since he judges even the highest?” (Job 21:22).

“He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name. Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit” (Psalm 147:4-5).

“And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever” (1 Chronicles 28:9).

“Do you know how the clouds hang poised, those wonders of him who has perfect knowledge?” (Job 37:16).

“From heaven the LORD looks down and sees all mankind; from his dwelling place he watches all who live on earth—he who forms the hearts of all, who considers everything they do” (Psalm 33:13-15).

God is Omniscient – The New Testament Evidence
“Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!” (Romans 11:33).

“Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account” (Hebrews 4:13).

“Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows” (Luke 12:7).

“Whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything” (1 John 3:20).

“Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered” (Matthew 10:29-30)._


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## Israel (Feb 18, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> _God is Omniscient
> QUESTION: What Bible verses say God is omniscient?
> 
> ANSWER:
> ...


yep


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## Israel (Feb 18, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> You believe in the miracles of Jesus, which fall under the category of supernatural phenomena.  Do you also believe in The power of Thor's hammer or Poseidon's trident or eight armed, blue skinned, elephant headed gods?



I believe this:
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get you behind me, Satan: you are an offense unto me: for you consider not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

And this:
For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God...

and also:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Whatever name may be taken of others, or given, according to the will of God, matters not to me.


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## ambush80 (Feb 18, 2016)

Israel said:


> yep



And yet you two disagree and I disagree with you both.  What to do, what to do?


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## ambush80 (Feb 18, 2016)

Israel said:


> I believe this:
> But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get you behind me, Satan: you are an offense unto me: for you consider not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
> 
> And this:
> ...



Again, you say "My supernatural is real and yours (to everybody else) is not)".  Is asking you "How dare you?" too strong?


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## Israel (Feb 18, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> And yet you two disagree and I disagree with you both.  What to do, what to do?


I am not sure the ones you hold as disagreeing, do.

As to this:



> Again, you say "My supernatural is real and yours (to everybody else) is not)". Is asking you "How dare you?" too strong?



Again...I would say "they" are indeed being informed by the "supernatural".
You seem quick in your assumptions of what is being said. Relatively quick to assume tasting liberty is nothing more than a "pass" for evil, when it is everything that is not.

Seriously...have you had a very religious indoctrination?
When you surmised a bit of absurdity as the key to sleeping like a baby (which I am not saying that to you, such a swallowing may really appear absurd)...what really were you saying?
Were you saying (as it sounded to me)"it's far too simple this grasp of a good night's sleep" One must work harder, endeavor (in whatever you consider of merit)...to earn such a thing? Is a good night's sleep, along with a good day's awakening...just out of reach...for all the folly and contradiction with which you must contend? What else is all and only for the "earning"? Who could ever sleep well

When will you "earn" the right...to sleep like a baby?

You have no doubt, earned much. Those who look at you from the other side, know how much you have invested in the principle of law. Indeed, it feels such a "shame" to a man to be presented with chucking it all. We know this, too.
There does stand a great impasse between us. If your contentment is full in your earning, who would I be to tell you it isn't? Nothing...nothing at all.
I like free. Like a loafer.

Someone has told you, taught you, informed you.

Me, likewise.

How dare you think yours is "more true"? If dares be the order of the day.
Numbers?
Then you have never known, or seen the One.
You're simply one who has stumbled at the cross, and is offended by it.
It's not unusual.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 18, 2016)

Limited Free Will verses;

Proverbs16:9                                                                                               The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps. 

1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it. 

James 1:13-16 
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers.

Psalm 37:23  
The steps of a man are established by the Lord, when he delights in his way; 

Deuteronomy 11:26-28 
“See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse: the blessing, if you obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you today, and the curse, if you do not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside from the way that I am commanding you today, to go after other gods that you have not known. 

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Romans 1:24  
Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 

Romans 14:12  
So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

Jeremiah13:23                                                                                             Can an Ethiopian change his skin or a leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

Proverbs 19:21  
Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.

Proverbs 16:4  
The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble. 

Well maybe it's more limited than I originally thought. Even the depraved are without excuse. Yet they can't choose Jesus. They can choose God but not Jesus.


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## Israel (Feb 19, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Limited Free Will verses;
> 
> Proverbs16:9                                                                                               The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.
> 
> ...



Can anyone?
Can you "have" the Father apart from the Son?


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## bullethead (Feb 19, 2016)

Israel said:


> Can anyone?
> Can you "have" the Father apart from the Son?


Have you heard of Judiasm?


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## ambush80 (Feb 19, 2016)

Israel said:


> I am not sure the ones you hold as disagreeing, do.



He's a limited freewill guy and I thought you were a predestination guy.



Israel said:


> As to this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Tell me what you mean when you say liberty.  




Israel said:


> Seriously...have you had a very religious indoctrination?
> When you surmised a bit of absurdity as the key to sleeping like a baby (which I am not saying that to you, such a swallowing may really appear absurd)...what really were you saying?
> Were you saying (as it sounded to me)"it's far too simple this grasp of a good night's sleep" One must work harder, endeavor (in whatever you consider of merit)...to earn such a thing? Is a good night's sleep, along with a good day's awakening...just out of reach...for all the folly and contradiction with which you must contend? What else is all and only for the "earning"? Who could ever sleep well
> 
> When will you "earn" the right...to sleep like a baby?



My indoctrination was pretty light but effective.  I was as afraid of He11 and the Devil as much as a 7 year old could be.  I wanted to go to Heaven as much as a 7 year old could.  I believed that two of each of all the animals on Earth were put on a boat and the Earth was covered by a great flood.  I didn't think about all the people, men, women and children that were killed in that flood until later but that's how that works, isn't it?  You plant the seeds in a young impressionable child's mind, a child that trusts you and the other adults that reinforce those ideas and they get fixed hard.  Real hard. 

I believed that Jesus Christ was God in the form of man and I believed in his Resurrection.

I can't believe I'm actually getting a little angry right now thinking of the crime that was inflicted upon me.  All those years wasted.  I'm angry that it is still being perpetrated.

With all that damage done it was hard to sleep soundly.  When I began to question those things that I simply believed without question, I did lose a lot of sleep.  Many, many nights were spent tossing and turning wondering how it could possibly be so wrong.  It took a long time before my self un-indoctrination was mostly complete, enough to the point where I could sleep peacefully.  But I still had to confront my parents. I won't go into the details but in the end I had to forgive them.  They did the best they knew how.  I couldn't blame them entirely for not thinking critically for themselves and passing on that curse to their children.  At some point I had to grow up and take charge of my own thoughts.  



Israel said:


> You have no doubt, earned much. Those who look at you from the other side, know how much you have invested in the principle of law. Indeed, it feels such a "shame" to a man to be presented with chucking it all. We know this, too.
> There does stand a great impasse between us. If your contentment is full in your earning, who would I be to tell you it isn't? Nothing...nothing at all.
> I like free. Like a loafer.
> 
> ...



I was presented with some information.  I was instructed on how to analyze information. Much information I had to find on my own.

So tell me.  I've only been asking the same question of you for seven years.  The lessons you've gotten from the enigmatic "Cross"  you so often refer to, how were they relayed to you?  What methodology did you use to decipher them? 




Israel said:


> How dare you think yours is "more true"? If dares be the order of the day.
> Numbers?
> Then you have never known, or seen the One.
> You're simply one who has stumbled at the cross, and is offended by it.
> It's not unusual.



Tell me how you've seen the One.  Tell me about the cross.


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## Israel (Feb 21, 2016)

Liberty to love.
To know God as I am known, to know love...as He is. The "prime" Mover is love, and never less.
In all and every instance of my having banged my head, those places of the sucky as you described, that have worked my woe, and through me to the woe of others, it has always and only been in my blindness to what is the most obvious that I have sought to resist. My being testifies of love, and the grace that flows from it. That grace allows me to be, even in occasion, particularly seen painfully after those said occasions, of my resistance.

Dismiss as some have, as perhaps you have, the rebuttal to Dawkin's surmising that "In the universe searched we find no evidence of benevolence"...(not verbatim)
He would have to totally ignore the faces open to him in audience as he speaks, eagerly awaiting, like cisterns to be filled, and those who have spent both money (the substance of exchange for their life, in this economy), and thereafter time (more substance of their lives) in the searching out of his words, in books written and purchased, that have led more than a few it would appear, to affirm this man's being. He would have to ignore cameras trained upon him, of interviewers who believe he has something worthy to say, and endeavor, in their lives to give him both platform and time for "his" expression...of his being. Much is being made way for this man to be "as he is". He may assume it is rightful to him, I know I once did. This presumption of self expression seen so "rightful"...as to miss all the grace necessary for it.

Yes, a man can be led many places to "have to" disprove what he himself enjoys. The gift of being. 

From searching for Higgs Boson to the outer stretches of the perceptible space around him. But he may never, perhaps, come to the simple acknowledgement of what is taking place inside as he metaphorically rubs his hands together  "O God, but how I love what I do, what I have been made for to do". 

God allows for pleasure even in what may take its strongest stand against him. Grace.

Your friends may be diligently seeking for the unifying equation of all, or an understanding quantifiable, containable, explicable, for all. They may look to their maths, others may look to brain chemistry and subtle electrical changes for a key to consciousness. They simply, must. Each stands as the center of his own "universe"...all stretching out from the point that is ...him. And inquiry must follow. What am I, what is "man" in this midst of the all things?

One like myself is neither opposed to the searching, nor dismayed when told "we find no benevolence 'out there'." Or, in another place informed..."that thing you think you are as solid, is mostly vast empty space between molecules"..."you are mostly...just...space" Yet, despite all evidence that may be presented to undercut in some way my notion of self...I am. And if I am, you are, too. I cannot accept my being...apart from yours.

To you, this may seem folly, gibberish...who is this "other" man to "accept" my being? But I could tell you of a man who accepted naught but himself in his being. All else, to put it crudely, were just stage props at best in the outplaying of his starring role of life. Wives and lovers, children even, existed solely in "that" universe to this man's allowance. We might both agree to his wretched estate. 

In truth the whole of creation appeared to him solely as his playground. He could pay attention, as he willed, if he willed, to molecules or planets and black holes, to nebulae or beach pebbles...or other "people" as he willed. For the time allowed him he continued in this folly, seeking to work his will in it...in all of it.

The matter of pain can never be lightly dismissed. Things have a "way" of getting real. When things once appearing as "under control" by attentions rendered or denied...suddenly impose. And of such depths of imposition that the all once considered merely "out there" now comes to exact payment. When "my" universe of vanity suddenly appears...inside...the thing in sin I extended out from me..."I" am lost in it...fractured, fragmented, uncentered, swirling in storm unbidden, and surely unanticipated.

Yet, a voice. Is it my own? Am I making this up? Where hope has no place to stand, no place allowed in all of my former now that has "come home" quite justifiedly,  tossing me like rag doll...a voice. Singular in the midst of all words being flung at me of just desserts in assaults and taunt. In the midst of all hoplessness, hope appears. In that singular voice. It bids me cry out...in what, at that moment seems the most useless of all endeavors. But cry...is all I have...into the unknown, unseen, for all that I know to my bones I don't deserve...but must have.

If you do, you would not be the first to question..."didn't your desperation manufacture it?" You could even ask "was it not merely for your wretchedness, that your wretchedness might continue?" Believe me, if you can, I have these asked of me...by a self. Is it simply the survival "mode" of worm?

But, you ask about the cross. It is the provision, to me...where worms may live, and by paying attention to the voice heard there, become men.
All of hope, because of love.


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## 660griz (Feb 22, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think most people both Atheist, Christian, and possibly even the Pagans believe in limited freewill. We just don't now how much we are in charge vs. God or other forces.



Scholarly theologians agree on limited free will. Another contradiction that makes no sense to me. "limited" and "free" do not belong together. Of course our choices are bound by physics but, you shouldn't count that as being 'limited'. 

If that were the case then, I am a limited free man. I want to live on the sun but, I can't. Darn it.


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## Israel (Feb 23, 2016)

660griz said:


> Scholarly theologians agree on limited free will. Another contradiction that makes no sense to me. "limited" and "free" do not belong together. Of course our choices are bound by physics but, you shouldn't count that as being 'limited'.
> 
> If that were the case then, I am a limited free man. I want to live on the sun but, I can't. Darn it.



Is that because you _accept_ the laws of physics as being final arbiter of all things pertaining to you?
So, if, or when, a man like you and I might say "Look, I can't be in two places at once" for the myriad reasons in its myriad expression...(often at frustration?) we are depending upon the law that limits us as our justification for any expectation of otherwise?


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## 660griz (Feb 23, 2016)

Israel said:


> Is that because you _accept_ the laws of physics as being final arbiter of all things pertaining to you?
> So, if, or when, a man like you and I might say "Look, I can't be in two places at once" for the myriad reasons in its myriad expression...(often at frustration?) we are depending upon the law that limits us as our justification for any expectation of otherwise?



I don't consider physics to be a person so, no, it is not the final arbiter. 
I really shouldn't have put the 'laws of physics' restraint in there. Sometimes I feel the need to put more words than are necessary for fear of a response like, " you can't choose to walk on the ceiling...etc. 
Free will, by definition, is the choice between 'possible' courses of action. That pretty much covers the physics.

What helps one decide the course of action is another topic on morality, taste, etc.


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