# Jesus, Holy Spirit, and God?



## Bob2010 (Aug 22, 2013)

So I have read God and Jesus are the same. But that means God sacrificed himself.  But then Jesus sits at the right hand of God. Then you throw in the Holy Spirit as a 3rd entity or being. How does this all work? Are they all the same or are they 3 different beings? Whats your best answer?


----------



## JFS (Aug 22, 2013)

Polytheism lives!  People will try to say it's just 3 facets of the same entity but that doesn't hold up when you look at how the concepts are actually used (as you point out).


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 22, 2013)

Bob2010 said:


> So I have read God and Jesus are the same.



They are the same _nature_ (Divine.)  Here is a good summary of the Trinity:

http://carm.org/trinity


----------



## JFS (Aug 22, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Here is a good summary of the Trinity



Which says



> They are three distinct persons; yet, they are all the one God.



Can you explain that?


----------



## Bob2010 (Aug 22, 2013)

I guess I will stick with the concept of my human brain is not capable of understanding.  Gods always is like 2000 moves or thoughts ahead of me. Maybe I am just not capable.


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 22, 2013)

Bob2010 said:


> I guess I will stick with the concept of my human brain is not capable of understanding.  Gods always is like 2000 moves or thoughts ahead of me. Maybe I am just not capable.



Water

Ice/Steam/Liquid    3 states of one substance.

God

Father/Son/Holy Ghost  3 personalities of one devine being.


----------



## Bob2010 (Aug 22, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Water
> 
> Ice/Steam/Liquid    3 states of one substance.
> 
> ...



That sure is easier than the link on trinity.  Got it. Thanks


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 22, 2013)

Bob2010 said:


> I guess I will stick with the concept of my human brain is not capable of understanding.  Gods always is like 2000 moves or thoughts ahead of me. Maybe I am just not capable.



You are capable if you believe Jesus died for your sins. You don't have to believe Jesus is God. Most Christians do believe he is but not all Christians. All Christians do believe Jesus died for our sins. 
God is always 2,000 moves ahead of me, just ask some of the guys on this forum.


----------



## JFS (Aug 22, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Water
> 
> Ice/Steam/Liquid    3 states of one substance.
> 
> ...



How does that help?  If I have an ice cube in one room and a glass of water in another room, are they the same body of water or separate bodies of water?  

If the trinity is polytheistic each can be god, the same as separate cubes or a cube and steam can each be water.  The problem is when you claim there is a cube in one room and a puddle in the other room but that there is only one body of water.


----------



## JFS (Aug 22, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> 3 personalities of one devine being.



And the trinity doesn't mean one devine being, each is recognized as a separate distinct being.  Or did Jesus pray to himself?  Can you sit next to yourself?  How would Jesus die but god not die if there is one being?


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 22, 2013)

JFS said:


> And the trinity doesn't mean one devine being, each is recognized as a separate distinct being.  Or did Jesus pray to himself?



Jesus as He was on earth was God in the flesh. He lived His fleshly life here as an example. He was 100% man and 100% God, therefore the 100% man prayed to the 100% God, not for His sake but for ours that we may learn.



JFS said:


> Can you sit next to yourself?


 Is there two Adams?...Also there is two Hobbs27, One will be left in the field and the other taken. Luke 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.







JFS said:


> How would Jesus die but god not die if there is one being?



That flesh died only after he took on all our sin..in case you havent heard our Lord Jesus is alive!


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 22, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Jesus as He was on earth was God in the flesh. He lived His fleshly life here as an example. He was 100% man and 100% God, therefore the 100% man prayed to the 100% God, not for His sake but for ours that we may learn.
> 
> Is there two Adams?...Also there is two Hobbs27, One will be left in the field and the other taken. Luke 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
> 
> That flesh died only after he took on all our sin..in case you haven't heard our Lord Jesus is alive!




Now I'm confused, in explaining two can be one, are you saying Luke 17:36 explains this as the physical Hobbs27 will be left behind and the spiritual Hobb27 will be taken?

I'm not doubting this possibility, I've just never heard that verse explained this way.

I believe Jesus is still in a body of Flesh & Bones and will return in a body of Flesh & Bones. I believe we will go to heaven in a body of Flesh & Bones or in a glorified body just as Jesus did.
As you can see Christians don't all believe the same thing.
We do all believe Jesus died for our sins. As Christians we all know the only way to see the Father(God) is thru the son(Jesus.) Jesus is our mediator.
It's not as confusing as some try to make it.


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 22, 2013)

JFS said:


> How would Jesus die but god not die if there is one being?



How does Adam Sandler keep getting movie roles?

Some things are beyond human comprehension.


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 22, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Water
> 
> Ice/Steam/Liquid    3 states of one substance.



Actually, that is modalism (a/k/a Sabellianism) which is non-Trinitarian.


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 23, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Now I'm confused, in explaining two can be one, are you saying Luke 17:36 explains this as the physical Hobbs27 will be left behind and the spiritual Hobb27 will be taken?
> 
> I'm not doubting this possibility, I've just never heard that verse explained this way.



It could be. I have heard it taught that way, its just what came to mind at the time.


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 23, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Actually, that is modalism (a/k/a Sabellianism) which is non-Trinitarian.



Im not so sure that qualifies for sabellianism, as long as the three states of water are seperate..yet all are water. There is One God, He is The Father/ The Son/ The Holy Ghost. Take away one and we are talking about a non existant god. I like the water example because it simplifys something that we try to complicate. I can see where describing it as dihydrogenmonoxide may be more accurate, needing the 1 part oxygen to 2 parts hydrogen to make 1 substance.


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 23, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> How does Adam Sandler keep getting movie roles?
> 
> Some things are beyond human comprehension.




 This...


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Aug 23, 2013)

Hey Bob. This is a controversal subject. The trinity "evolved". During the fight for the claim of "orthodox", the winning group would write out exactly what it was they believed in order that it would serve as a standard for declaring who fit within that creed or circle. All else were deemed heritics. First  creed on record is called "the apostles creed". Looks straight from the bible with no language or terms not used by our NT writers. But later we have the "nicene creed". It came about in 325AD. It's writing/words/terms are foreign to biblical language. This particular time period had the world devided over many doctrinal issues. One of them being whether Jesus  was God, was equal to God and was a created being. The Nicene creed was established and new bibles translations all the same were commisioned for each church. No unaurthorized bibles or literature of any kind after this point or it was a capital offense. The Nicene creed stated the belief of many factors within the creed but interestingly enough, nothing resembling the trinity we have today. It was a "Bi" instead of a "tri" creed. By the 400's we see the arguments of early church fathers writings revealing another change coming on. I don't recall the players or the creed but I think the date was 451 AD. The Holy Spirit had officially evolved from being God's Spirit to being a coequal third person of the newly named trinity. So my point is that history records this evolution. Most don't know it and the others deny it. But it is factual. Some will go through years worth of reading from the vast volumes of writings from our early church fathers and pull a word from here or a word from there and they usually find a couple from the internet. But upon further inspection, they have to be culled due to context. Corruption also exists where writings have been inserted back into time in attempt to falsely validate a doctrine. The most common of these are the 7 leters from...... darn, I can't remember his name. I will find it and edit back in. But even with the few one liners that can be found in attempt to justify that the doctrine of the trinty, notice that they do not even support the trinity. They will not support the 3rd person of the HS. And also notice the dating, nothing from within a 100 years. I say this because some will look for proof, some may find a couple sentences from a 200 year timespan, but ask yourself if they actually support the trinity. If people believe the trinity after close inspection, I respect that. But I hate to think of all those who claim to be trinitarian, yet have no idea about the history of the doctrine they fight for. I wish you well in finding clarification to your original question.


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 23, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Im not so sure that qualifies for sabellianism, as long as the three states of water are seperate..yet all are water. There is One God, He is The Father/ The Son/ The Holy Ghost. Take away one and we are talking about a non existant god. I like the water example because it simplifys something that we try to complicate. I can see where describing it as dihydrogenmonoxide may be more accurate, needing the 1 part oxygen to 2 parts hydrogen to make 1 substance.



The problem with the water analogy is that H2O is either solid or gas or liquid.

God is not the Father or the Son or the Holy Spirit.


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 23, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> The problem with the water analogy is that H2O is either solid or gas or liquid.
> 
> God is not the Father or the Son or the Holy Spirit.



I understand your point, but in scripture God is divided by His purpose in the story...keeping it simple here, because no matter what state the h2o is in it is still h2o.


----------



## gemcgrew (Aug 23, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> I understand your point, but in scripture God is divided by His purpose in the story...keeping it simple here, because no matter what state the h2o is in it is still h2o.


What is your meaning with this statement? You can private message me if you will, so we do not derail.


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 23, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> What is your meaning with this statement? You can private message me if you will, so we do not derail.



In scripture God is divided by name according to His state..as we refer to our Savior as Jesus, also known as The Son, our comforter as the Holy Ghost, and The Father as the one who art in Heaven.


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 23, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> In scripture God is divided by name according to His state..as we refer to our Savior as Jesus, also known as The Son, our comforter as the Holy Ghost, and The Father as the one who art in Heaven.



 I like this.

 And I like this: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1john 5:7

And this: And there are three witnesses on the earth: The Spirit, the water and the blood: and these three agree...their testimony coincides. 1 john 5;8


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Aug 23, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> I like this.
> 
> And I like this: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1john 5:7
> 
> And this: And there are three witnesses on the earth: The Spirit, the water and the blood: and these three agree...their testimony coincides.


You really need a good translation. That is a corrupted KJ verse. Factual, not my opinion


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Aug 23, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> You really need a good translation. That is a corrupted KJ verse. Factual, not my opinion


This is a good example of translators forcing a doctrine into a text. Our modern translations are full of them.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Aug 23, 2013)

For those grabbing onto the water being solid, liquid, OR gas:

Are you all familiar with what is called the "triple point" of water?

Google it and have your mind blown...


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 23, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> This is a good example of translators forcing a doctrine into a text. Our modern translations are full of them.



May my poverty not devalue the realestate in the neigbourhood. I purposely mixed up two verses...from different bibles... even leaving some words out myself... thinking ya'll could fill in the blanks or dots... I submit...however.

Here this is what agents might better appreciate as handsome to potential investor-buyers:


1 John 5:7-8

King James Version (KJV)


7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.


I must agree the lawns here are cut much greener, in fact the properties probably come with a grounds care contract.... and when looking back at my old post it looks like a wornout trailerhome or widowless shed was tacked to a regular home. I should have gone with all trailer park or all upper middle class.... gee... what was I thinking... I made a wort out of worth!
 Peace bros.


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 23, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Are you all familiar with what is called the "triple point" of water?
> 
> Google it ...



I did, and it is an excellent analogy for the Trinity.  I don't think that's what hobbs27 had in mind, though.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 23, 2013)

And I like this: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1john 5:7

If I were to defend the Trinity, I would have to pick a better verse. It appears "and these three are one" was added. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost isn't even in all versions:

Parallel Verses
New International Version
For there are three that testify:

New Living Translation
So we have these three witnesses--

English Standard Version
For there are three that testify:

New American Standard Bible
For there are three that testify:

…6This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 23, 2013)

The text says there are three that testify, indicating the subject matter of the verse concerns a united witness between these three and there is no reason one should suppose it would imply anything else. 1 John 5:7 literally says, "and these three are one." The very next verse, concerning the Spirit and the water and the blood, literally says, "the three are unto the one" meaning these too have a common and united testimony. To be consistent, the Trinitarian advocate of 1 John 5:7 should also then conclude these three, the water, the Spirit, and the blood, are also a Trinity of one being. It is quite reckless to interpret this text as declaring the Father, Word and Holy Spirit are one God when all the verse says is the three are a united witness, one testimony. The oneness in question is a oneness of purpose and function, not a oneness of identity or ontology and substance of being. In other words, the three, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit are in one united agreement concerning their witness/testimony.

In a similar sense, Jesus prayed for this same unity of oneness between himself the Father and the church. We would not therefore assume these three are "God."

    I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one just as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one. (John 17:20-23).

http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/verses/1Jn5_7.html


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 23, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I did, and it is an excellent analogy for the Trinity.  I don't think that's what hobbs27 had in mind, though.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 23, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> For those grabbing onto the water being solid, liquid, OR gas:
> 
> Are you all familiar with what is called the "triple point" of water?
> 
> Google it and have your mind blown...



I'm an A/C Mechanic and that went over my head. Maybe God is superheated and Jesus is saturated. That's the condensed version.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Aug 23, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> And I like this: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1john 5:7
> 
> If I were to defend the Trinity, I would have to pick a better verse. It appears "and these three are one" was added. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost isn't even in all versions:
> 
> ...


What was changed was "water" to "word". What is going on here is that the proof for Moses if they did not believe the other signs that he was sent from God, EX 4:5, 8,9 the the water from the nile poured out on the ground will  become blood. 1 John 5:6, Jesus is the one who came by water and blood. He did not come by water only but water and blood. The Spirit is testifying and the spirit is truth, for there are three that testify of God's testimony, the Spirit, the water and the blood, and these three are in agreement. We accept man's testimony but God's testimony is greater. [He has testified that he sent Jesus by the fact that Jesus came by water and blood refering to when the soldier pierced Jesus and water and blood flowed on the ground.]


----------



## M80 (Aug 23, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm an A/C Mechanic and that went over my head. Maybe God is superheated and Jesus is saturated. That's the condensed version.



Didn't know you worked you stay on here so much      I'm a mechanic also. 

How about this example on the three. Take three separate candles, three separate flames. Put them together and wow, they just turned into one flame. I like keeping things simple and believing


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 23, 2013)

mwilliams80 said:


> Didn't know you worked you stay on here so much      I'm a mechanic also.
> 
> How about this example on the three. Take three separate candles, three separate flames. Put them together and wow, they just turned into one flame. I like keeping things simple and believing



I like that better than the water analogy.

Hey it's too hot to do AC work outside. It makes me sweat. Especially those rooftop units. I wish I could fix those with a computer.


----------



## gemcgrew (Aug 23, 2013)

The Christian God is a Trinity(the Father, the Son, the Spirit). In the Christian worldview, when we refer to God, we are referring to a Trinity. Any other worldview is non-Christian.


----------



## Bob2010 (Aug 23, 2013)

Man! I got it all figured out now. Lol! Lots of input for sure. I believe in all 3 either way. Question came up in our Bible study this week. Ill pass the link on to those guys as well.


----------



## hummerpoo (Aug 23, 2013)

The triple point may be as good a model as any for us to use when thinking of the Trinity.  My untrained and uneducated impression is that it is hypothetical, which does not mean wrong or bad.  It is derived by projecting the freeze temperature and boil temperature of water at different pressures to the point that all three (ice, water, and steam) exist.  Because there is no deviation from that point that allows the condition to exist, it can not be observed.  We can create conditions on two sides of the point, with one constant, and assume that it existed as the conditions passed from one to the other, but it can not be observed because the point itself is infinitely small. Think of plane geometry; a point is defined as having no height, no width, and no depth.  If we move into theoretical physics my point gets lost and so do I, so let’s not.

We know that neither the point nor the triple point has physical reality, but we develop a great deal of understanding by imagining them.  And that’s where the parallel with the Trinity lies.  God has not revealed to us the relationship, or relationships, within deity, so men have projected from that which has been revealed.  There is good and bad in that method.  The good is that we can learn the limits of our capability in spiritual maters.  The bad is that it is the nature of man to think he is greater than he is.

The positive is evidenced by what we call “the fear of God”.  The negative is evidenced by men’s projections having been used as a proof test within the church since the doctrine was codified.

I must remind all that those are the impressions of the untrained and uneducated.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 23, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> The Christian God is a Trinity(the Father, the Son, the Spirit). In the Christian worldview, when we refer to God, we are referring to a Trinity. Any other worldview is non-Christian.



Well the world is mostly Catholic so it would be a world view.
Free will is a worldview, any other worldview is non-Christian.

It may not be a world view but Apostolic Pentecostal Oneness believers don't believe in the Trinity. 
Oneness Pentecostalism rejects all concepts of a subordination, duality, trinity, pantheon, co-equality, co-eternity, or other versions of the Godhead that assert plural gods, plural beings, divine "persons", individuals, or multiple centers of consciousness within that Godhead.

With all of the Pentecostals in Georgia, I wish we had some on this forum. Maybe they aren't allowed to debate their beliefs.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 23, 2013)

I believe the Holy Spirit is God's spirit and Jesus is God's son who died for our sins and arose to ascend into Heaven in a glorified body to sit next to his Father in Heaven. He will one day return to the Earth in the same body he left in.
If that's not a worldwide view of Christianity, I don't really care. That is my belief and it is between me and God.
I don't believe when Jesus returns to Earth, he will ask me anything about the Trinity or Election.


----------



## gemcgrew (Aug 23, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Free will is a worldview, any other worldview is non-Christian.


No. Any other worldview would be non-Free will.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 23, 2013)

I developed my Non-Trinitarian beliefs after my salvation so I get grandfathered in. Salvation is by grace alone. Believing in the Trinity is a work. Before my salvation, I was too depraved to even think about the Trinity. 
We didn't believe in order to be born again, we were born again in order to believe. Most new Christians don't really know what they believe other than Jesus died for their sins. 
It's either all that or "Non-Trinitarians were never saved to begin with." Go tell that to the "Oneness" non-world view believers.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 23, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> No. Any other worldview would be non-Free will.



And any other worldview would be non-Trinitarian.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 23, 2013)

This might be a world view but I don't agree with it do any of you on this forum?
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 23, 2013)

What's essential for salvation is to belief that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ, the  Son of God.
It doesn't even matter if you believe from freewill or election, just that you believe. John 3:16. 
Hopefully some of the Grace only believers will be on here to defend me.
What happens after your once in a moment salvation  doesn't matter to some but at the very least it is repentance and a born again new life.
You are saved/born again, and repent. That is what salvation is.
It isn't whether your Christian beliefs are worldwide or not.


----------



## gemcgrew (Aug 23, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> And any other worldview would be non-Trinitarian.


Yes. In regards to a Trinitarian worldview. I am not sure you have grasped this yet, so I am slowly backing away.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 23, 2013)

The Oneness believers believe so strongly against the Trinity that just to be Baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is wrong. A new Christian should be Baptized in the name of Jesus only. 
Jesus' Name Doctrine is a nontrinitarian theology, characterised by a belief that baptism must be performed only "in the name of Jesus Christ", rather than the more common Trinitarian formula "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit".


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 23, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Yes. In regards to a Trinitarian worldview. I am not sure you have grasped this yet, so I am slowly backing away.



I understand the difference between a Christian wold view and a Biblical view.
I understand that I don't really care about world views. I'm more interested in the Biblical  view.

I care not what the world believes. I can only follow where God leads me with his spirit, the Holy Spirit. The world puts too much faith in Man and his worldly views.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 23, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> The Christian God is a Trinity(the Father, the Son, the Spirit). In the Christian worldview, when we refer to God, we are referring to a Trinity. Any other worldview is non-Christian.



I don't believe that to be true even among Trinity believers.
Most Christians refer to God as God and Jesus as Jesus.
People pray to God in Jesus' name as an example. Most people don't just automatically think of the Trinity when they refer to God.


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 24, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't believe that to be true even among Trinity believers.
> Most Christians refer to God as God and Jesus as Jesus.
> People pray to God in Jesus' name as an example. Most people don't just automatically think of the Trinity when they refer to God.



I do brother, I do think of the trinity more than not. My life has been as this regards my mind and the devine perhaps: As a child I knew in my mind and in my heart of God and then as a young person God and Jesus, and later came to know the last person of the trinity.

Now at all times I was covered by the trinity because where I was attended to by one, one was all three attending although not always to my conciousness. Today one is not without the others, my senses attuned to my Father, the church as the body of Christ and my teacher the Holy Spirit.

When I am attended to by Jesus, I know him as commissioned by the authority of the  Father and therefore I see Him. Also simutaniously I see the Holy Spirit, the helper sent to all the redeemed, that provides that I see all three and as they see,  seen their examples and the examples and the acts of all being to  the will of One.

I have often noticed that ministers and priests often preside at worship by praising God by His name Father and asking their pilgrims to hold Jesus in their hearts His son as the example of His will for them. The Holy Spirit has always asked me to meditate on this as if saying, "There is alot in the heart of God to know as we stare into his heavens...and by love to see and all this takes time to see and to see that the clouds of His and our heavens are always on the move... and that it is I who is fixed, stopped momentarily at observation stages. "


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 24, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> God has not revealed to us the relationship, or relationships, within deity, so men have projected from that which has been revealed.  There is good and bad in that method.  The good is that we can learn the limits of our capability in spiritual maters.  The bad is that it is the nature of man to think he is greater than he is.
> 
> I must remind all that those are the impressions of the untrained and uneducated.



Maybe the untrained and uneducated can see as a small child.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 24, 2013)

I've never heard a Christian pray to the Holy Spirit or the Trinity. I pray to God and when I do, I picture Jesus' father. I also picture or have an image of my mediator at his father's side so therefore add "in Jesus name we pray."


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 24, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I've never heard a Christian pray to the Holy Spirit or the Trinity. I pray to God and when I do, I picture Jesus' father. I also picture or have an image of my mediator at his father's side so therefore add "in Jesus name we pray."



And our Holy Father to whom we pray, He is without Spirit? Him that saw to achor us to Jesus so long ago, and Jesus in us, now has no longer a Holy Will?

Who do we praise in worship as a corporate body? And who comes to answer our prayers? Who comes tangible to the lives of the living? Who does the Father send?


----------



## hummerpoo (Aug 25, 2013)

John 16: 
23.  "In that day you will not question Me about anything. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you.
 24.  "Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full.
 25.  "These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; an hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but will tell you plainly of the Father.
 26.  "In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf;
 27.  for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came forth from the Father.
 28.  "I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father."
 29.  His disciples *said, "Lo, now You are speaking plainly and are not using a figure of speech.
 30.  "Now we know that You know all things, and have no need for anyone to question You; by this we believe that You came from God."


----------



## GunnSmokeer (Aug 25, 2013)

*Jehovah's Witnesses*

I'm not a Witness, but I know of some, and I visited their religion's main website.

It has a F.A.Q. section where they explain how they are Christians, and they believe in the New Testament as well as the Old Testament books, but it clarifies that they don't believe in "the Trinity" the way other Christian denominations do.

I can't explain it.  Go visit their website and see for yourself.  The bottom line is that Jesus is the Son of God, but not the one and only God himself. Jesus is subordinate to God. Like an agent who serves the principal. And they cite several bible quotes that support this understanding of Jesus and God.


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 25, 2013)

GunnSmokeer said:


> I can't explain it.  Go visit their website and see for yourself.  The bottom line is that Jesus is the Son of God, but not the one and only God himself. Jesus is subordinate to God. Like an agent who serves the principal. And they cite several bible quotes that support this understanding of Jesus and God.



 They are very good at decieving people! Ive been hoping they would come by my house while Im at home so we can have a sit down conversation..somehow they never make it past my neighbor two houses up, as he's a Mormon and has quiet a collection of pamplets to discuss with them as well.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Aug 25, 2013)

GunnSmokeer said:


> I'm not a Witness, but I know of some, and I visited their religion's main website.
> 
> It has a F.A.Q. section where they explain how they are Christians, and they believe in the New Testament as well as the Old Testament books, but it clarifies that they don't believe in "the Trinity" the way other Christian denominations do.
> 
> I can't explain it.  Go visit their website and see for yourself.  The bottom line is that Jesus is the Son of God, but not the one and only God himself. Jesus is subordinate to God. Like an agent who serves the principal. And they cite several bible quotes that support this understanding of Jesus and God.


What I find ironic about them is that they are careful not to "read into" scripture what is not stated about Jesus in regards to him being God. Yet they do that very thing "reading into" the scriptures about blood, and have a "no blood products" rule that they fight for.


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 25, 2013)

Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, was tried by a court of Jews for blasphemy. They asked, "are you the Son of God"? 

 His exact answer depends on which Gospel you are reading from but from His answer they found Him guilty. In one account He answered I AM. I AM is the name of God.

 He was turned over to the Romans with more than one charge but the one being He calls himself Christ or King. 

 You can beat the Bible up all you want for not having a clear enough explanation to satisfy yourself that Christ is The Son of God, and without Christ Christians would not have a God..Your answer is in the story, not a CH. or VS. kind of answer.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Aug 25, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, was tried by a court of Jews for blasphemy. They asked, "are you the Son of God"?
> 
> His exact answer depends on which Gospel you are reading from but from His answer they found Him guilty. In one account He answered I AM. I AM is the name of God.
> 
> ...


I guess it comes down to each one's interpretatation of what "son of god' means


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 25, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> I guess it comes down to each one's interpretatation of what "son of god' means



or blasphemy.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 25, 2013)

Jesus was killed by the Romans because they were the only ones who could make executions at that time and place. The Jews could accuse Jesus and condemn him, but the execution of the verdict was subject to Roman approval.
Pontius Pilate could not care less about what Jesus was accused of- being a prophet, messiah or son of God was nothing in the eyes of Roman law, so Pontius wanted to release Jesus. He could not do so- because Jesus preached of a "better Kingdom"- and that was a crime under Roman law, simply because the Emperor was (officially) a god and therefore nothing better could possibly exist.

Essentially it means that if Pontius released Jesus and word of it got to the ears of the Emperor, then Pontius would be toast.

Either that or Jesus died for our sins so he was going to die one way or the other in a predestined kind of way.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 25, 2013)

1 Timothy 2:5 
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."  

•	Jesus said, "The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him." (John 13:16) Jesus said on numerous occasions that, "the Father… hath sent me." (John 5:37,6:37) The Holy Ghost was also sent by the Father (John 14:26) and Jesus (John 16:7), thus making Jesus inferior to the Father and the Holy Ghost inferior to both the Father and Jesus.
•	"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another comforter, that he may abide with you forever; even the spirit of truth." (John 14:16)
•	Jesus prays to God. (John 17:1-3)
•	Jesus has faith in God. (Hebrews 2:17,18, Hebrews 3:2)
•	Jesus is a servant of God. (Acts 3:13)
•	Jesus does not know things God knows. (Mark 13:32, Revelation 1:1)
•	Jesus worships God. (John 4:22
•	Jesus has one who is God to him. (Revelation 3:12)
•	Jesus is in subjection to God. (1 Corinthians 15:28)
•	Jesus' head is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)
•	Jesus has reverent submission, fear, of God. (Hebrews 5:7)
•	Jesus is given lordship by God. (Acts 2:36)
•	Jesus is exalted by God.(Acts 5:31)
•	Jesus is made high priest by God. (Hebrews 5:10)
•	Jesus is given authority by God. (Philippians 2:9)
•	Jesus is given kingship by God. (Luke 1:32,33)
•	Jesus is given judgment by God. (Acts 10:42)
•	"God raised [Jesus] from the dead". (Acts 2:24, Romans 10:9, 1 Corinthians 15:15)
•	Jesus is at the right hand of God. (Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69, Acts 2:33, Romans 8:34)
•	Jesus is the one human mediator between the one God and man. (1 Timothy 2:5)
•	God put everything, except Himself, under Jesus. (1 Corinthians 15:24-28)
•	Jesus did not think being "equal with God" was graspable. (Philippians 2:6)
•	"Around the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, saying "Eli Eli lama sabachthani?" which is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"" (Matthew 27:46)


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 25, 2013)

One scripture sometimes used by people who accept the trinity is John 14:7:
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.” Some Christians feel this proves God and Jesus were the same person. However, reading the verse in context demonstrates this is not at all what the Savior was saying.
In verse 10, Jesus says, “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” Here, Jesus Christ clearly says he isn’t speaking for Himself, but for God, and it’s God doing the works, not Him. This makes it very clear they are separate beings. Jesus promises to pray to God to ask God to send a comforter to His apostles when He’s gone, something that would not be necessary if they were the same person. But in verse 20, we learn exactly what Jesus means when He talks about being in the Father:
“At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.” If the previous verses had the meaning that “I am in my Father” meant they were the same person, then the next phrase, “And ye in me, and I in you” would mean the apostles were also the same person as Jesus, making it far larger than a trinity. Jesus uses similar phrasing often, instructing the apostles to be one with each other as He is one with His Father. What He meant, obviously, was to be completely unified in love, doctrine, and purpose.
The testimony of Stephen is even more clear about the separateness of Jesus and God: “But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.” (Acts 7:55-56)


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 25, 2013)

Believing in the Trinity is one of those things like Election & OSAS. It has to do with our indoctrination and reading the Bible in that frame of mind. It's only after putting aside our indoctrination can we read it with a better understanding.
We could all be wrong on our interpretations  including me and King James.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 25, 2013)

Jesus prayed to his Father to send another Comforter and he did. We can't deny some connection to God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.

We our very selves have a trinity that makes us who we are: mind, body, & spirit. Inner man, Outer man, & Soul. Even so I think of myself as one being.


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 25, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> 1 Timothy 2:5
> For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
> 
> “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."
> ...



None of this denies that Jesus was God in the flesh as He walked this earth. 100% Man 100% God.

 None of this answers why Jesus declared to the Sanhedrin court the He is, I AM.  None of it answers why Jesus was found guilty of declaring himself the Son of God which was charged as blasphemy. These scriptures put together as so is an example of man beating up the bible because it doesnt meet their expectations of a clear explanation. The story is the answer, not chapter__ verse__.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Aug 25, 2013)

At what point did the disciples start believing that he was the so called I Am? Maybe they were not present when he made these claims. Maybe selling tickets at the gate? where is that smiley icon? They surely did not believe it early on, otherwise Peter would not have rebuked Jesus if he were believed to be God. When Jesus calmed the storm, they said, "what kind of man must this be". If they thought he were God then calming the storm would be no surprise. When thety said "now we know that you know all things" would also be assumed if he were believed to be God. In Hebrews we have a verse declaring that Jesus is greater than the angels.... would that not be assumed if he were God? In rev we see John bow down twice to an angel. If Jesus were God, why were they not constantly on their knees? I could go on but you get the point. I will say that I see where trins get their ideas. I just hope that the trins can see where I get mine, that I am not some sort of looney


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 25, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> At what point did the disciples start believing that he was the so called I Am?



Matthew:16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 

16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.






1gr8bldr said:


> I just hope that the trins can see where I get mine, that I am not some sort of looney


 
Not a looney. Peters answer did not come from scripture or from being an eye witness account but was revealed by the Father. Not all the answers are in the scriptures.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Aug 25, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Matthew:16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
> 
> 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
> 
> ...


You seem to assume that "the Christ, son of the living God" equals God????


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 25, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> You seem to assume that "the Christ, son of the living God" equals God????



So did the Sanhedrin Jews.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 25, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Matthew:16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
> 
> 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
> 
> 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.



Those verses only reveal that Jesus is the Son of God.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Matthew 24:36 "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

John 7:33 Jesus said, "I am with you for only a short time, and then I am going to the one who sent me.

Again I can't deny the connection between God & Jesus but I can't make that connection something it isn't by using the Bible.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 25, 2013)

While on this earth Jesus taught the Kingdom of his father. That was the  main topic of his teaching.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 25, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> So did the Sanhedrin Jews.



Maybe Jesus was killed because he said he was the Son of God? Maybe Jesus was killed because he said he was the Messiah?


----------



## Big7 (Aug 26, 2013)

*Answer Right Here*



Bob2010 said:


> So I have read God and Jesus are the same. But that means God sacrificed himself.  But then Jesus sits at the right hand of God. Then you throw in the Holy Spirit as a 3rd entity or being. How does this all work? Are they all the same or are they 3 different beings? Whats your best answer?



GO HERE: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07409a.htm

The blue key words may be clicked on for further information.

It's a long read. ALL of it is there though.


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 26, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe Jesus was killed because he said he was the Son of God? Maybe Jesus was killed because he said he was the Messiah?



 Blasphemy being the charge. Based on what? Maybe this link will help some to understand, either way Im done with it. I'm not getting in the mud and wrestling on this. My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is no and was no mere man!

http://www.studylight.org/dic/hbd/view.cgi?number=T971


----------



## headbust (Aug 26, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Water
> 
> Ice/Steam/Liquid    3 states of one substance.
> 
> ...


perfect example of the truth


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 26, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Blasphemy being the charge. Based on what? Maybe this link will help some to understand, either way Im done with it. I'm not getting in the mud and wrestling on this. My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is no and was no mere man!
> 
> http://www.studylight.org/dic/hbd/view.cgi?number=T971



I think Jesus calling himself the Messiah and Son of God was the reason the Jews said he  was blapheming.

From the link above:
New Testament The New Testament broadens the concept of blasphemy to include actions against Christ and the church as the body of Christ. Jesus was regarded by the Jewish leaders as a blasphemer Himself (Mark 2:7 ). When tried by the Sanhedrin, Jesus not only claimed messianic dignity, but further claimed the supreme exalted status (Luke 22:69 ). Such a claim, according to the Sanhedrin, fit the charge of blasphemy and, therefore, deserved death (Matthew 26:65 ; Mark 14:64 ). However, according to the New Testament perspective, the real blasphemers were those who denied the messianic claims of Jesus and rejected His unity with the Father (Mark 15:29 ; Luke 22:65 ; Luke 23:39 ).

Mark 2:7 "What is he saying? This is blasphemy! Only God can forgive sins!"
An argument that Christians often use to demonstrate that Jesus is God according to the Bible is that he had the authority to forgive sins. However, according to the Gospel of John (cf. John 20:23) the disciples also had the authority to forgive sins. In light of this fact, why don’t Christians also accept the Divinity of the disciples seeing that they too forgave sins like Jesus?

Luke 22:69 But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God.
Yes Jesus does claim supreme exalted status and is no mere mortal man but the Son of God. He is still sitting next to God even today. 

Notice who the real blasphemers are? 
Those who deny the messianic claims of Jesus and reject His unity with the Father. If you've seen Jesus, You've seen his Father, now that's unity.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Aug 26, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think Jesus calling himself the Messiah and Son of God was the reason the Jews said he  was blapheming.
> 
> From the link above:
> New Testament The New Testament broadens the concept of blasphemy to include actions against Christ and the church as the body of Christ. Jesus was regarded by the Jewish leaders as a blasphemer Himself (Mark 2:7 ). When tried by the Sanhedrin, Jesus not only claimed messianic dignity, but further claimed the supreme exalted status (Luke 22:69 ). Such a claim, according to the Sanhedrin, fit the charge of blasphemy and, therefore, deserved death (Matthew 26:65 ; Mark 14:64 ). However, according to the New Testament perspective, the real blasphemers were those who denied the messianic claims of Jesus and rejected His unity with the Father (Mark 15:29 ; Luke 22:65 ; Luke 23:39 ).
> ...


I think, my opinion, is they were refering to blasphemy of Caesar. He was considered a god. What are the verses..... If you let this man go you are no friend of Caesar. .. oh better get my bible.... yea.. "anyone who claims to be a king opposes Caesar" [also notice that they did not say "anyone who claims to be God] "Pilat answered, shall I crucify your king,  we have no king but Caesar' This is John chap 19. They were looking for a way to kill him but found none. Then when he said the words riding on a cloud, they thought of Daniel 9 and saw this claim of rulership as blasphemy against Caesar. They handed him over as one starting a revolt against Rome.


----------



## Bama4me (Aug 27, 2013)

Scripture is very clear that "God" consists of three persons.  I prefer to call them "Beings" because "person" doesn't really adequately describe them.

Probably the very best place in all the bible to see it clearly is in Matthew 3:13-17.  After Jesus (the Son) was baptized by John, the Holy Spirit descended like a dove and rested on Him... and a voice from heaven (the Father) said "This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."

In this passage, we clearly see the three Beings.  As was mentioned earlier in the thread, one thing we learn about them is the "roles" they assume.  Jesus repeatedly said in regards to His life, "I came to do the Father's will"... and He indicated He would send "the Comforter" (Spirit) to guide the apostles after He would ascend to the Father.  It's a fascinating study to go from Genesis to Revelation and see these different "roles".

Likely the most difficult understanding is Deuteronomy 6:4 when examining this topic (God is one).  However, when a person looks at usage of this term other places, it doesn't confuse us at all.  In Matthew 19:5, Jesus said a husband and wife should be "one flesh".  Certainly, that doesn't imply that two people magically "merge" into one person when they marry... it's talking about unity - in purpose and in goals.  In John 17:21, Jesus prayed for all believers that "they may be one".  When a person obeys the gospel and God adds him/her to the church, that person doesn't magically "merge" together with other believers... again, it's talking about unity.

In addition to these observations, one might also consider what is learned in the creation account.  The Hebrew word rendered "God" in Genesis 1:1 is plural and later God said, "Let us make man in OUR image" (1:26).  Often, when we read the bible and see the word "God", we always think it's referring solely to the Father... which is not always correct.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all "God"... they all possess the Divine Essence which makes them "God" and it's proper to refer to all three as "God".  They are united in purpose and desire... though they all three maintain a distinctiveness when it comes to their individual roles.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Aug 27, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> Scripture is very clear that "God" consists of three persons.  I prefer to call them "Beings" because "person" doesn't really adequately describe them.
> 
> Probably the very best place in all the bible to see it clearly is in Matthew 3:13-17.  After Jesus (the Son) was baptized by John, the Holy Spirit descended like a dove and rested on Him... and a voice from heaven (the Father) said "This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."
> 
> ...


I see how you come to this conclusion, really I do, but you miss the context. Why would God need receive the Holy Spirit? Acts 2:33 "he has received from the Father the promised HS. How come?


----------



## Bama4me (Aug 27, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> I see how you come to this conclusion, really I do, but you miss the context. Why would God need receive the Holy Spirit? Acts 2:33 "he has received from the Father the promised HS. How come?



I believe you're going to be talking about different ideas when looking at Matthew 3 and Acts 2.

When you ask a reason for Jesus receiving the Holy Spirit, it would seem the very next chapter (4:1) provides one reason... as might Matthew 12:28 and John 1:33.  

If you asked me my opinion as to "why" Jesus needed this being that He was "God", my answer would be based on His incarnation - something He refrained from using while here on earth.  A good example where we find this idea is Matthew 24:36... "but concerning that day, no one knows but the Father only".  Do I believe that Jesus TODAY knows the time He'll return?  Absolutely.  However, did He know at the time He made that statement?  He did not... otherwise, He would have been lying.  Evidently, part of His incarnation was a limitation of knowing that specific piece of information.  However, that's just my opinion... Matthew 4:1, Matthew 12:28, and John 1:33 indicates there was a very real reason - whether we can explain it or not.

The Acts 2:33 idea, IMO, pertains to what was mentioned over in John 1:33.  It was the promise regarding the Lord "baptizing others with the Holy Spirit."  It's related, but I think it's two different ideas here.

BTW, how would you explain the plural usage of "God" in the creation account if you believe otherwise?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 27, 2013)

My study of the Trinity of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit has brought me to the attention of other important trinities. Although not as important as the Holy Trinity, we have the trinity of God, Jesus, and the mother of Jesus (Mary).
Mary was the natural mother of Jesus. Adam was born pure and sinned. Jesus(second Adam) had to be a man and was born pure and remained pure or free from sin. He would have to of been capable of sin to be the Messiah and sacrifice. He would have to be a man to be Jew. He was 100% man and 100% diety. Mary wasn't just a surrogote. This was an important trinity or unity.
Next is the trinity of the inner man, outer man, & the Holy Spirit.
This would be close to the trinity of God, Jesus, and the disciples. Jesus wanted them to have the same thing he had with his Father.
Another trinity I can think of is the trinity of marriage: Man, Woman, and God. Marriage is not only a commitment to one another, but it is also a covenant relationship with God.
I know all of these are different from the Holy Trinity but might somehow be related in how we look at UNITY.


----------

