# 45-70 government for primative weapons season



## PappyHoel

In Alabama you are allowed to use a 45-70 gov during muzzleloader season.  Does Georgia allow the same?


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## Nicodemus

Nope.


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## Milkman

PappyHoel said:


> In Alabama you are allowed to use a 45-70 gov during muzzleloader season.  Does Georgia allow the same?



Not hardly


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## bilgerat

They also have a Spear season over there, always wanted to kill a deer with a spear


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## ryanh487

PappyHoel said:


> In Alabama you are allowed to use a 45-70 gov during muzzleloader season.  Does Georgia allow the same?



No, the regs specify "muzzleloading" firearm.


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## Nicodemus

"Primitive" is the most misused word in our hunting regulations anyway. We only have 4 members out of the over 100,000 here that regularly use true primitive weapons.


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## stabow

What part of the regs that states 45/70 center fire is ok in Alabama ?


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## shane256

stabow said:


> What part of the regs that states 45/70 center fire is ok in Alabama ?



It's like that in MS and LA, too. It started out with allowing inlines, then allowing red dot scopes on inlines, then allowing regular scopes on inlines, then allowing single-shot, exposed hammer .45-70 and .444M rifles with scopes (on private land) back about 10 or so years ago and has since expanded to include any centerfire .35 caliber or larger, single-shot exposed hammer rifles with scopes on private land. So a lot of folks use .35 Whelens but some folks still use their .45-70 and .444M. Last year was the first time (for a week) they allowed these same rules on a WMA that I hunt. I think it'll be the same this year.

The slow walk helped make sure that various gun (and scope) manufacturers could maximize revenue (since at each one of those steps, a bunch of folks would run out and buy whatever the latest allowed things were).


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## Milkman

Maybe they need to change and call it an "early modern" centerfire season.


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## RockyMountainBasser

I happen to have a copy of the AL regulations at the house.  I will have to check this out.


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## stabow

Let me know what page it's on I couldn't find it......


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## RockyMountainBasser

It says nothing about the use of a .45-70 for muzzleloader season in the Alabama regulations.  I meant to take a photo of it.  I read it from one end to the other, and nothing is said of the use of this weapon for muzzleloader season.


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## Milkman

I saw in another thread where a fellow plans to shoot a skunk with a 45-70.


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## pdsniper

Nicodemus  I could not agree with you more, I refuse to use a modern Muzzle loader, using a traditional muzzle loader takes a lot of knowledge a skill and these modern in lines are like hunting with a single shot modern rifle to me it defeats the purpose of primitive weapon I have been hunting with a hand made Hawken and a Civil war Whitworth for as long as I have been black powder hunting and I even make my own bullets, to me hunting with my 1874 sharps would be more primitive than these modern muzzle loaders using modern scopes and shot gun primes to light the charge but to each his own I guess


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## Darkhorse

Back in the 70's if memory serves me, there was a push by some blackpowder hunters to get a Primitive Weapons season added. Just a quiet time to be in the woods with only archers and traditional weapons. At that time we did not have the long season and generous bag limit we enjoy today.
I was at a rendevouz in North Georgia when I signed a petition.
So today we have a week of primitive weapons. It's a far shot from what was originally envisioned. Who knew about inlines with scopes capable of 300 kills?
But I look at it another way...just think of all the revenue that's been generated by the sales of inlines. And for the first few years we got a week in hot weather with clouds of skeeters and the new bp hunters lined up to buy a license. Those were shinin times for the state.
The only skin off my back is when I try to draw a license out of state with a flintlock and iron sights. And lose out to all the modern bp rifles.
Other than that I might hunt our PW season if I find a lot of acorns dropping with deer actively feeding.
But come the rut, often as not I'll be hunting with a favorite flintlock just as I have before we got a PW season.
No reason to put it down. That's the best time of the year to get a good buck.


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## rockman7

Hmmm... I suppose those hunters with spears should be upset because some use recurve bows, recurve hunters upset at compound hunters ! Truthfully... anything with gunpowder is a "modern" weapon !!!

Suck it up buttercups!!


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## lampern

As I understand it GA was one of the last states to enact a "muzzleloader" season


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## Darkhorse

You are probably right. It was many years between the first pushes that I can remember, to when they actually created the PW season.


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## rosewood

I believe it is called "primitive weapon" season which I believe the intent was archery.

Muzzleloader season is called "muzzleloader" not "primitive" weapons.  If a state chooses to have a season for a non-repeating rifle, so be it.

At what point will a caliber developed in 1873 no longer be "modern"?  I believe muzzle loaders were in use for several hundred years before the cartridge was developed.  Would a smooth bore be considered less "modern" than the rifled muzzle loaders back in the day?

It is all semantics me thinks.  Hunt with what you want as long as it is legal.  I personally prefer using the most effective weapon that is legal at the moment.  I am far more effective and ethical with a modern rifle with a scope than anything else.  If someone wants to hunt with a black powder, flint lock rifle with iron sites to increase the difficulty and nostalgia of it all, that is what our great country is all about.  As for myself, that is something I might like to do once but then I would move back to what increases my odds.

You can be back in the day when trappers and hunters were hunting for a living, they used the most modern, most advanced technology they could afford.  They were not worried about the nostalgia of it all. 

Rosewood


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## one hogman

rockman7 said:


> Hmmm... I suppose those hunters with spears should be upset because some use recurve bows, recurve hunters upset at compound hunters ! Truthfully... anything with gunpowder is a "modern" weapon !!!
> 
> Suck it up buttercups!!



What he said times 2,..


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## lampern

In North Carolina they recently legalized any firearm made in or before 1898 to be legal during the "primitive" season.

It has turned out not to be a big deal.


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## Ruger#3

45/70....primitive?


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## NCHillbilly

rockman7 said:


> Hmmm... I suppose those hunters with spears should be upset because some use recurve bows, recurve hunters upset at compound hunters ! Truthfully... anything with gunpowder is a "modern" weapon !!!
> 
> Suck it up buttercups!!



But, in reality, if you go by the intent of "primitive," there is a big difference between a flintlock rifle shooting patched round balls and a scoped Savage "muzzleloader" shooting smokeless powder and jacketed bonded bullets; or between a longbow with no sights and a scoped crossbow. And the level of challenge and skill involved in killing a deer with said weapons is very different. 

At some point, the primitive season makes no sense if you allow everything that you do in rifle season. It's not that people are upset, it's just that the regs have gotten so far away from the original intent of them that they don't even make sense anymore. If you're going to have a "primitive weapons" season, what is wrong with restricting it to weapons that fit the definition of that? There is over three months of wide-open modern rifle season. A week or two of true primitive season wouldn't kill any crutch-using buttercup of your type who doesn't understand or appreciate or enjoy or want to take the time to learn the challenge of hunting with the old stuff, I wouldn't think.


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## Big7

Nicodemus said:


> "Primitive" is the most misused word in our hunting regulations anyway. We only have 4 members out of the over 100,000 here that regularly use true primitive weapons.



Who dat? 

And, no you can't use one in Ga. during "primitive weapons"

A .45 or .50 in line will do about the same thing.


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## lampern

You can if you are a kid, which is cool


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## SASS249

lampern said:


> In North Carolina they recently legalized any firearm made in or before 1898 to be legal during the "primitive" season.
> 
> It has turned out not to be a big deal.



Can you tell us where you got that info?  The current regulation online do not support that.


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## lampern

> (3) As used in this Paragraph, blackpowder firearms means "*Any firearm* - including any firearm with
> a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system - *manufactured in or
> before 1898*; any replica of this type of firearm if such replica is not designed or redesigned for
> using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition; and any muzzle-loading rifle, muzzleloading
> shotgun, or muzzle-loading handgun that is designed to use blackpowder, blackpowder
> substitute, or any other propellant loaded through the muzzle and that cannot use fixed
> ammunition."



http://reports.oah.state.nc.us/ncac...er safety/subchapter b/15a ncac 10b .0203.pdf


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## SASS249

As I read the post above, I could argue that an *Original* rifle manufactured before or in 1898 could be used, but any replica must not use fixed ammunition.  So possibly a few 45/70 rifles could be used, but none of the reproductions out there.  Seems to me this is a pretty narrow approval and I suspect it was actually not intended.


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## lampern

SASS249 said:


> As I read the post above, I could argue that an *Original* rifle manufactured before or in 1898 could be used, but any replica must not use fixed ammunition.  So possibly a few 45/70 rifles could be used, but none of the reproductions out there.  Seems to me this is a pretty narrow approval and I suspect it was actually not intended.



Correct. Replicas cannot fire fixed ammo.

It has to be a genuine antique and not many people hunt with those.


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## GunnSmokeer

*1890's milsurps*

If antique 1898 and earlier weapons can be used, then I assume it's OK to use old military surplus bolt action rifles that have mean sporterized, even rebarreled and chambered for a more modern caliber.

Such a gun might shoot a 7x57 Mauser round, a .303 Brit, or even a .308.  It could be scoped, wrapped in camo tape, and fitted with a bipod. 

It would have a lot mor in common with a modern deer rifle than an old .45-70 with iron sights.


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## NCHillbilly

SASS249 said:


> As I read the post above, I could argue that an *Original* rifle manufactured before or in 1898 could be used, but any replica must not use fixed ammunition.  So possibly a few 45/70 rifles could be used, but none of the reproductions out there.  Seems to me this is a pretty narrow approval and I suspect it was actually not intended.





GunnSmokeer said:


> If antique 1898 and earlier weapons can be used, then I assume it's OK to use old military surplus bolt action rifles that have mean sporterized, even rebarreled and chambered for a more modern caliber.
> 
> Such a gun might shoot a 7x57 Mauser round, a .303 Brit, or even a .308.  It could be scoped, wrapped in camo tape, and fitted with a bipod.
> 
> It would have a lot mor in common with a modern deer rifle than an old .45-70 with iron sights.



I think the red portion is the limiting factor the way I read it:



> any firearm with
> a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system - manufactured in or
> before 1898


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## GunnSmokeer

Well, the NC legislature didn't do a very good job of drafting this and making their intentions clear, but I don't see the reference to types of ignition systems as a controlling limitation.  By putting that material between dashes as a parenthetical reference and starting with ".... INCLUDING ANY FIREARM..." [capitalization added] , 

I read it as ADDING to the list of guns that can meet the antique qualification.

1.) firearms with matchlock systems are OK
2.) firearms with flintlock systems are OK
3.) firearms with percussion cap systems are OK
4.) firearms with an ignition system "similar to" numbers 1-3 above are also OK.

And

5.) any firearm manufactured in or before 1898 is OK.


1898 is the year of the Spanish-American war, and during that war the Spanish forces used modern bolt action Mauser rifles in 7 x 57mm.  Plenty of modern smokeless rifle cartridges that shot rather skinny (good B.C.) jacketed bullets at over 2600 f.p.s. velocity were developed in the late 1880s' and through the 1890's. The legislature ought to be expected to know this-- modern smokeless rifle rounds with an effective range of several hundred yards were WELL-KNOWN to military and civilian shooters and hunters prior to 1898.

Had the legislature wanted to forbid use of these kinds of smokeless-powder, bottle-necked high pressure rifle rounds for hunting, they should have, and would have, set the cut-off-date at about 1880 rather than 1898.  That way, the metallic cartridges used would have been black powder, and almost all of them featuring a fat heavy bullet at relatively slow velocity.

Some examples of modern-high performance rifle ammo that was developed and standardized (or adopted by some military) prior to 1898:

The  8 x 57mm Mauser-- at least the first version known as Patrone 88-- was adopted by the German Army in 1888.
The 6.5 x 55 mm  Sweedish round was invented in 1891.
The Italian 6.5 Carcano round dates to 1891.
The Russian 7.62 x 54 Rimmed was invented in 1891.
The .303 Brit was converted from black powder to nitro/ smokeless powder in 1891.
The .30-40 Krag round was invented in 1892.
The 7 x 57 Mauser was invented in 1893.
The .30-30 Winchester and .25-35 Winchester were both invented (and loaded with smokeless powder) in 1895.
The 6mm Lee Navy (6×60mm SR) was adopted by the USA in 1895.


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## fishdog

It clearly says no rimfire or center fire ammo.


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## GunnSmokeer

it says that for the REPLICA guns. Not the 118 year old antiques.

I think that in North Carolina, a genuine antique gun that uses a centerfire, brass-cased cartridge is OK to hunt with just like a muzzleloader.  Not for Georgia, but in NC.


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## SASS249

Getting off-topic, but this is one of the reasons lawyers exist.  I agree with GunSmokeer's interpretation above.  By putting the reference to flintlock etc btwenn dashes you have a sentence that reads any firewarm manufactured before 1898 period.  Replicas are restricted to not using fixed ammoe, but originals are good to go.

I really doubt that is what the legislature intended and if I get time I may talk to some of them just to see.  Problem is what they meant is not nearly so important as what the actual law says.  The plain language of the law is what matters and this indicates any original manufactured in 1898 or before is good to go.


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## lampern

The legislature did not write it.

The biologists with the NC wildlife folks wrote it.

Thats a difference between NC and GA. Lots of willdife laws in NC need NO approval from the politicians.


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## lampern

GunnSmokeer said:


> it says that for the REPLICA guns. Not the 118 year old antiques.
> 
> I think that in North Carolina, a genuine antique gun that uses a centerfire, brass-cased cartridge is OK to hunt with just like a muzzleloader.  Not for Georgia, but in NC.




You are correct in your assessment.

Guns made in or before 1898 are classified as antiques under the Gun Control Act of 1968.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firear...arms-ammunition-gun-control-act-definitions-0


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## Darkhorse

rosewood said:


> I believe it is called "primitive weapon" season which I believe the intent was archery.
> 
> Muzzleloader season is called "muzzleloader" not "primitive" weapons.  If a state chooses to have a season for a non-repeating rifle, so be it.
> 
> At what point will a caliber developed in 1873 no longer be "modern"?  I believe muzzle loaders were in use for several hundred years before the cartridge was developed.  Would a smooth bore be considered less "modern" than the rifled muzzle loaders back in the day?
> 
> It is all semantics me thinks.  Hunt with what you want as long as it is legal.  I personally prefer using the most effective weapon that is legal at the moment.  I am far more effective and ethical with a modern rifle with a scope than anything else.  If someone wants to hunt with a black powder, flint lock rifle with iron sites to increase the difficulty and nostalgia of it all, that is what our great country is all about.  As for myself, that is something I might like to do once but then I would move back to what increases my odds.
> 
> You can be back in the day when trappers and hunters were hunting for a living, they used the most modern, most advanced technology they could afford.  They were not worried about the nostalgia of it all.
> 
> Rosewood



It was always intended to be Primitive Weapons season.
We have 3 separate seasons for hunting deer in Georgia.
The first is and has always been "Archery Season." This is limited to bows & arrows. Maybe crossbows too now.

Then Primitive Weapons. The law doesn't read muzzleloaders. This covers your flintlocks, sidelocks, underhammers, and inlines. It also provides for the use of Archery equipment.

Next is firearms season which adds centerfires to the list of previously mentioned weapons.

I was curious as to the definitions and looked it up. And these definitions insure that one can use any weapon he or she chooses during a particular season as long caliber restrictions are observed. And believe it or not, I will also tote a modern scoped rifle occasionally. I like them all.

O.C.G.A. 27-3-4 (2010)
27-3-4. Legal weapons for hunting wildlife generally 


It shall be unlawful to hunt wildlife with any weapon, except that:

(1) Longbows, recurve bows, crossbows, and compound bows may be used for taking small game, feral hogs, or big game. Arrows for hunting deer, bear, and feral hogs must be broadhead type;

(2) During primitive weapon hunts or primitive weapons seasons:

(A) Longbows, recurve bows, crossbows, compound bows, muzzleloading firearms of .44 caliber or larger, and muzzleloading shotguns of 20 gauge or larger loaded with single shot may be used; and

(B) Youth under 16 years of age may hunt deer with any firearm legal for hunting deer;

(3) Firearms for hunting deer, bear, and feral hogs are limited to 20 gauge shotguns or larger shotguns loaded with slugs or buckshot (except that no buckshot is permitted on state wildlife management areas unless otherwise specified), muzzleloading firearms of .44 caliber or larger, and center-fire firearms .22 caliber or larger; provided, however, that firearms for hunting feral hogs, other than those weapons specified in this paragraph, may be authorized by rule or regulation of the board. Bullets used in all center-fire rifles and handguns must be of the expanding type;


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## Nicodemus

If a weapon has any iron or steel in it, it`s not primitive and should not be construed as one. 

Naturally, opinions will vary.


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## tullisfireball

lampern said:


> As I understand it GA was one of the last states to enact a "muzzleloader" season



Some states still don't have one.


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## 660griz

Some states allow muzzleloader rifles or 'black powder' handguns. Therefore, if you were shooting 45-70 with black powder, it doesn't have to be 70 grains , out of a handgun, you would be legal.


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## SASS249

Not to continue beating a dead horse, but I talked to Major Todd Kennedy of the NC Wildlife Resources Commission today.  He is with the law enforcement division and it turns out wrote much of the language in the rule.  

He was very clear, that in North Carolina NO cartridge weapons can be used during blackpowder season regardless of when the weapon was manufactured.  

 They interpret the controlling language to be "with
a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system".  Self contained cartridges are not a "similar type of ignition system" as far as they are concerned.

These are the folks who will be enforcing the law and the ones who wrote it,  I would go with their interpretation.  You might could argue that the language is ambiguous etc, but I would not count on winning that argument.


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## lampern

They are 100% wrong but it doesn't matter to me.

I don't own a cartridge gun made in or before 1898.


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## lampern

Final thought:

Look in the NC hunting regs digest and see what is says about "blackpowder" firearms.

The definition in the law is not printed in the regs book.

You have to search for it in the state code.


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## Buzz

Interesting that Mississippi does in fact allow single shot firearms with metallic cartridges .35 caliber or larger to be used in primitive weapons season.   I suppose it's all semantics as a single shot .45-70 predates a modern compound bow by quite a few years.

https://www.mdwfp.com/law-enforcement/hunting-rules-regs.aspx


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## lampern

Louisiana too



> Legal Gear
> 
> Legal Gear for Primitive Firearms Season includes:
> 
> Rifles or pistols, .44 caliber minimum, or shotguns 10 gauge or smaller, all of which must load exclusively from the muzzle, use black powder or approved substitute only, take ball, shot, or bullet projectile only, including saboted bullets. All of the above may be fitted with magnified scopes.
> Single shot, breech loading rifles or pistols, .35 caliber or larger, having an exposed hammer that use metallic cartridges loaded either with black powder or modern smokeless powder. All of the above may be fitted with magnified scopes.
> Single shot, breech loading shotguns, 10 gauge or smaller, having an exposed hammer, loaded with buckshot or rifled slug.



http://www.wlf.louisiana.gov/hunting/deer/regulations


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## Lilly001

I would think that getting people into the woods as hunters, regardless of the name or regulations of the season, is a good thing.
Each state does it their own way. I am happy with the way Ga. does it.
I had differences with the way Fl. does it, so I hunt in Ga.


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## bronco611

may as well allow shotguns with slugs if you are allowed to use a 45-70. Better yet go golfing and let the woods stay primitive for at least 1 week.


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