# Elect?



## Bob2010 (Nov 19, 2014)

So I have had people here on gon and people at my church suggest I don't get hung up on the elect theory. I am not afraid or upset by the concept anymore.  It would upset me if I believed I was not one of the elect. In trying to read scripture without a bunch of outside influence that may taint the word of God. It appears in Mark 13 verses 20 - 22 - 27 in the red letters Jesus says that is the case. Then beyond that it says in 14:18 Judas will be punished badly for betrayal but in 14:19 Peter is set up to be forgiven for betrayal. Also this is all God's plan. There had to be the role of Judas and Peter. Each seem selected for their job. So why does the elect belief get questioned so much? Is it the non elect that really are troubled by it? Does the scripture not clearly state election is real? Why not be hung up on it and seek answers and understanding? When I accepted salvation I felt chosen.  I believe I was chosen from birth to be his but ran from Christ for a long time. Holy spirit said that will enough running right now! All I could possibly do that day was say yes Lord , thank you, and I'm sorry.  Is that elect?


----------



## Israel (Nov 19, 2014)

It becomes peculiar if a man were to believe his very being is anything less than purposed by, and totally dependent upon God, and then get a little ruminative about anything that pertains, in all, to that.


----------



## Bob2010 (Nov 19, 2014)

I guess so. I mean it's in red letters. Seems your chosen or your not. Just a matter of when we are called to accept or deny it. Some have nothing to deny as they were not selected.  Wow that's harsh!


----------



## rjcruiser (Nov 19, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> I guess so. I mean it's in red letters. Seems your chosen or your not. Just a matter of when we are called to accept or deny it. Some have nothing to deny as they were not selected.  Wow that's harsh!



They deny it every day with their own sin and rejection of Christ. 

The reason so many have difficulty with it is because man is prideful and wants to be in control of all things. ..including his spiritual destiny.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Nov 19, 2014)

I try to believe in Limited Freewill. I realize from Scripture God has caused everything for his purpose. 
Still it's hard for me to believe God made Adam knowing full well he would sin and Jesus in the form of God's mind/word would send a Savior. This was God's plan. The Word was with God from the beginning in the form of his mind/word.
The Old Covenant was to show us that we couldn't live a righteous life of not sinning and would appreciate a Savior. Again God's plan.
Everything in the New Testament was told or presented as a mirror in the Old Testament. The Flood for example.
The whole lineage of Abraham was God's plan and was foretold how it would happen.  The story of Jesus' life and physical death were foretold and did happen as planned.
Saul becoming Paul was the work of God, not Saul.


----------



## rjcruiser (Nov 19, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I try to believe in Limited Freewill. I realize from Scripture God has caused everything for his purpose.
> Still it's hard for me to believe God made Adam knowing full well he would sin and Jesus in the form of God's mind/word would send a Savior. This was God's plan. The Word was with God from the beginning in the form of his mind/word.
> The Old Covenant was to show us that we couldn't live a righteous life of not sinning and would appreciate a Savior. Again God's plan.
> Everything in the New Testament was told or presented as a mirror in the Old Testament. The Flood for example.
> ...



Maybe God created Adam with free will as he was created without sin.

We on the other hand...no debate.  We're tainted by Adam's sin....and can choose nothing but sin if left up to us.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Nov 19, 2014)

Perhaps our destiny is mostly God's will and a little bit our will influenced by our sinful nature, Satan, and later; the Holy Spirit.

If election is from God, what criteria does he use? I've often wondered if he uses his foreknowledge to see what kind of person we will become. I don't believe this is the case as God is no respecter of man. We can't even begin to be good without God. Some say before salvation we are totally depraved. 
So why does God call on some people and not others? Does God call on people in tiny villages in remote rainforests and tiny islands?
Does he need or depend on man to awaken these people? Is that his plan?

How does the power of prayer work if everything is predestined? I guess one could say God predestined me to pray for a cure for an illness and knew this millions of years ago. 
It's hard to develop a balance of Election and Freewill.


----------



## rjcruiser (Nov 19, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> It's hard to develop a balance of Election and Freewill.



This is true.

All I know is the Bible says God is in Control of all things (salvation included).

and....

That man has a responsibility to act upon the Word of God.


It can be a tightrope walk for sure.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Nov 19, 2014)

There are a few concepts that allow a different approach. I can't put it in words but I think I do believe in election. But the argument has legit opposition. One example, We are "elected" as the bride of Christ, the church, on a corporate level, not individual. 2, We are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. Just 2 that come to mind


----------



## Bob2010 (Nov 19, 2014)

Once again I side railed our class tonight.  Our pastor was really trying to remain neutral.  Apparently many churches loose alot of members over this topic.  I kind of walked him into the trap of talking about it with the why was Judas threatened and Peter was not. Fulfilled prophesy and one was elect and it wasn't Judas. He finally went there. Apparently I am steering towards the Calvinism point of view.  Others that believe anyone can make a decision to be saved is arminianism. I guess the extreme calvonist believe we don't need repentance and you are saved because you have been chosen.  The extreme arminianism believe we choose or we don't choose to accept Christ. Everyone has equal opportunity.  The calvonist believe in secure salvation.  If you are elect you are saved period.  The Arminianism believe you can loose your salvation if you stray away from God and live in sin. Which Is What Judas chose. Basically scripture will back up both sides. Much scripture like the soil parable and other scripture that teaches the importance of the condition of our heart or the need for repentance back up arminianism.  The clear scripture about the elect and or the chosen. The scripture that points out God knows our hearts and knows all in advance support the calvonist. The older wiser fellows who know much more than I do reminded me that there is God's business and their is our business as his children. As humans we don't have a right or the capacity to understand.  Let God sort this one out. Still grateful I was elected though.


----------



## Bob2010 (Nov 19, 2014)

http://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html

This is alot better than what I said. More along the lines of what was probably said tonight.


----------



## hobbs27 (Nov 19, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> The older wiser fellows who know much more than I do reminded me that there is God's business and their is our business as his children. As humans we don't have a right or the capacity to understand.  Let God sort this one out. Still grateful I was elected though.



Maybe it is one of my many shortfalls to the Kingdom, but I despise that answer by elders in a church. It makes me feel as though they have become complacent and lazy.

 I don't take much issue on this topic, as it's never been an issue in any church I've ever attended, but it seems to me as though God knows all things, even who will and who will not be saved. I believe that God beckons all, even those not elected. So the nonelect will know they had the option...and God knew they would not accept.

Those that receive the judgement of perishment will not be able to blame God.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Nov 19, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> So the nonelect will know they had the option...and God knew they would not accept.
> 
> Those that receive the judgement of perishment will not be able to blame God.



If God knew they would not accept, did they ever have a chance? Why do we have a choice but Saul didn't? 
If a sinner dies tomorrow without salvation, why did God take his life knowing he might have accepted a week later?
If God foreknew this same person would never accept, why was he even born? Isn't his perishment still of God?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Nov 19, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> Apparently I am steering towards the Calvinism point of view.  Others that believe anyone can make a decision to be saved is arminianism. I guess the extreme calvonist believe we don't need repentance and you are saved because you have been chosen.  The extreme arminianism believe we choose or we don't choose to accept Christ. Everyone has equal opportunity.  The calvonist believe in secure salvation.  If you are elect you are saved period.  The Arminianism believe you can loose your salvation if you stray away from God and live in sin. Which Is What Judas chose. Basically scripture will back up both sides. Much scripture like the soil parable and other scripture that teaches the importance of the condition of our heart or the need for repentance back up arminianism.  The clear scripture about the elect and or the chosen.



It's not as cut and dry between the two groups. To start with what is this repentance you speak of? Repentance of sin or a change of mind? 
Many Armenians believe in once saved always saved. Most Armenians don't believe you can stray once elected. They just differ on whom this election is offered. Many Calvinist believe one must repent or change his mind.  You did say extreme views which are sometimes called "hyper."
I would say the main difference is where does this ability to repent come from? Where does faith come from?
We all mostly agree that salvation is from grace alone which does put salvation in the hands of God.
Salvation is of God's grace and nothing else. We get confused as to what part we play in our own salvation. If we do or don't reply to God's call. We mostly agree salvation is from God's call. The main difference is if we can refuse this calling. If Saul or Jesus had a choice to not accept this calling.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Nov 19, 2014)

If Adam had a choice, Abraham had choice, Jesus had a choice, Judas had a choice, and Saul had a choice, then I have a choice.
If they didn't then neither do I.


----------



## hobbs27 (Nov 20, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> If God knew they would not accept, did they ever have a chance?


Chance? No . Choice? Yes.



Artfuldodger said:


> Why do we have a choice but Saul didn't?


 Did he not?




Artfuldodger said:


> If a sinner dies tomorrow without salvation, why did God take his life knowing he might have accepted a week later?
> If God foreknew this same person would never accept, why was he even born? Isn't his perishment still of God?



 God knows all. He controls the very breathe we take and the next heartbeat cant happen without Gods will. He used that person somehow for His ultimate plan, I'm sure. 

 The persons perishment would be from God but the guilt would lie on the person..... I agree with this guy on this topic for the most part....http://www.faithalone.org/magazine/y1989/89july2.html..............This is what elders of the church should do on these topics. They should come together in one mind and one accord on these issues and determine what direction the church should take and provide scripture for their reasoning. It doesnt matter to me which position they take as long as they provide scripture I will respect their decision.

 I do not like the { I don't know and we will never know on this side answers} Not when we have scriptural lessons on the topics.


----------



## Bob2010 (Nov 20, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Chance? No . Choice? Yes.
> 
> Did he not?
> 
> ...



So apparently my Pastor spoke with 5 people yesterday that were leaving the church he used to work at. The new pastor of that church does not believe in secure salvation.  Paid staff and leaders are leaving because of this. I understand my Pastors point of view in the importance of not making a hard stance for one team. His point is there is great scripture to support both sides. Neither side is wrong in how they view the scripture. Both are right based on scripture.  But you can't have both. Not unless you are ok with some level of I don't know but God does because I am not on a level to completely understand how this works. The 2 teams have tons of scripture to back up their opinions. The issue in the church becomes evangelization.  How are we supposed to have a solid approach to spread the gospel if people believe it's not required because we are chosen.


----------



## rjcruiser (Nov 20, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> Once again I side railed our class tonight.  Our pastor was really trying to remain neutral.  Apparently many churches loose alot of members over this topic.  I kind of walked him into the trap of talking about it with the why was Judas threatened and Peter was not. Fulfilled prophesy and one was elect and it wasn't Judas. He finally went there. Apparently I am steering towards the Calvinism point of view.  Others that believe anyone can make a decision to be saved is arminianism. I guess the extreme calvonist believe we don't need repentance and you are saved because you have been chosen.  The extreme arminianism believe we choose or we don't choose to accept Christ. Everyone has equal opportunity.  The calvonist believe in secure salvation.  If you are elect you are saved period.  The Arminianism believe you can loose your salvation if you stray away from God and live in sin. Which Is What Judas chose. Basically scripture will back up both sides. Much scripture like the soil parable and other scripture that teaches the importance of the condition of our heart or the need for repentance back up arminianism.  The clear scripture about the elect and or the chosen. The scripture that points out God knows our hearts and knows all in advance support the calvonist. The older wiser fellows who know much more than I do reminded me that there is God's business and their is our business as his children. As humans we don't have a right or the capacity to understand.  Let God sort this one out. Still grateful I was elected though.



Extreme Calvinism is not supported by scripture...and note that this is coming from a Calvinist   But...I'll go on and say that Arminianism isn't scriptural either 

I'd also go as far as to say that the parable of the soils backs a doctrine of "election" than "free will."  Who determines what soil their heart is?  The soil is there already....we don't get to choose what soil we're in.

Not sure why, but old Southern Baptists have a problem with the name of Calvin.  Ask them if they believe God is in control of all things, they'll say yes every time.  Ask them if He's in control of Salvation....and they might kinda ho hum...maybe it.  Say that Calvin preached that and they'll say no way, can't be true.  Many a SBC have been split because of "Calvin."



Artfuldodger said:


> If Adam had a choice, Abraham had choice, Jesus had a choice, Judas had a choice, and Saul had a choice, then I have a choice.
> If they didn't then neither do I.



Adam was sinless for a while.  Abraham, wasn't.  Jesus was sinless, Judas and Saul weren't.

You're mixing a lot in that quote that you can't mix.



Bob2010 said:


> The issue in the church becomes evangelization.  How are we supposed to have a solid approach to spread the gospel if people believe it's not required because we are chosen.



We can be chosen, but that doesn't mean we can refuse to evangelize.  What does Jesus command us to do in Matthew 28?  We might not know who is chosen, but we are commanded "to go and make disciples."


----------



## formula1 (Nov 20, 2014)

*Re:*

All I can say to this subject is choose to trust and follow Christ and live for Him and He will never leave you or forsake you.  That is God's promise to you and it is more than enough!!!


----------



## Artfuldodger (Nov 20, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> Adam was sinless for a while.  Abraham, wasn't.  Jesus was sinless, Judas and Saul weren't.
> 
> You're mixing a lot in that quote that you can't mix.



Does being born sinless or not sinless have anything to do with freewill? Does a person have freewill before salvation but not after salvation or is it the other way around?
Did any or all I mentioned ever have freewill? If none of them didn't then neither do I.


----------



## rjcruiser (Nov 20, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Does being born sinless or not sinless have anything to do with freewill? Does a person have freewill before salvation but not after salvation or is it the other way around?
> Did any or all I mentioned ever have freewill? If none of them didn't then neither do I.



I think it does.  Adam's sin danned all of us.  He was not originally struck by the penalty of sin.  Only after he ate of the fruit was he danned.  

I still struggle with whether or not Adam had freewill prior to the fall, but I can at least see the point being made.


----------



## Bob2010 (Nov 20, 2014)

One point my Pastor made was true for sure. We are called to love, surrender,  serve,  etc. Service or love out obligation is not what we are called to. If we had no choice there would be no Christ like love. It would be obligation.  I agree scripture won't support either team to an extreme level.  It will support both teams though.


----------



## Ronnie T (Nov 20, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> So I have had people here on gon and people at my church suggest I don't get hung up on the elect theory. I am not afraid or upset by the concept anymore.  It would upset me if I believed I was not one of the elect. In trying to read scripture without a bunch of outside influence that may taint the word of God. It appears in Mark 13 verses 20 - 22 - 27 in the red letters Jesus says that is the case. Then beyond that it says in 14:18 Judas will be punished badly for betrayal but in 14:19 Peter is set up to be forgiven for betrayal. Also this is all God's plan. There had to be the role of Judas and Peter. Each seem selected for their job. So why does the elect belief get questioned so much? Is it the non elect that really are troubled by it? Does the scripture not clearly state election is real? Why not be hung up on it and seek answers and understanding? When I accepted salvation I felt chosen.  I believe I was chosen from birth to be his but ran from Christ for a long time. Holy spirit said that will enough running right now! All I could possibly do that day was say yes Lord , thank you, and I'm sorry.  Is that elect?



Let's see.  What do I know about belief and about elect?

I know the extent of my belief, and, I don't know anything about someone else's election.

Far too much being taught about "elect".


----------



## gemcgrew (Nov 20, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> Extreme Calvinism is not supported by scripture...


What doctrines of "extreme Calvinism" do you have in mind here?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Nov 20, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> One point my Pastor made was true for sure. We are called to love, surrender,  serve,  etc. Service or love out obligation is not what we are called to. If we had no choice there would be no Christ like love. It would be obligation.  I agree scripture won't support either team to an extreme level.  It will support both teams though.



Love, surrender, serve, be responsible, be held accountable, and try to live like Christ. That sounds like a whole lot of freewill to me even with the Holy Spirit's help.


----------



## Israel (Nov 20, 2014)

something about concluding all in unbelief, that he might have mercy...
I've tried to merit mercy, and it's taken me down some bizarre roads that always end in the revelation of my pride.
I gotta admit, I just don't believe God is as good as he says...till he shows me...better. I'm not proud of what remains of unbelief, and that unbelief born of that pride...but I sure do like the way he conquers it. I'm always being won to liking his conquering...more than my meager attempts to try to find something on which to stand...beside him, himself.
Without a kiss to wake me, I slumber in death.


----------



## M80 (Nov 20, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> If Adam had a choice, Abraham had choice, Jesus had a choice, Judas had a choice, and Saul had a choice, then I have a choice.
> If they didn't then neither do I.



Amen, Hebrews 11 says Moses chosesd to suffer.


----------



## gemcgrew (Nov 21, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> Amen, Hebrews 11 says Moses chosesd to suffer.


If one can consider the "By faith Moses...", only then can one understand the nature or cause of the choosing.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Nov 21, 2014)

By faith Abraham had a choice, what about Jacob & Esau?

Romans 9:11-12
though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls
12not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger."


----------



## Bob2010 (Nov 21, 2014)

True about free will.  But election is stated by Christ several times. So it is real as well.


----------



## gemcgrew (Nov 21, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> By faith Abraham had a choice


Show it. If we are using Hebrews 11, I see this... By faith Abraham obeyed, sojourned and offered. 

You are forcing choice.


----------



## gemcgrew (Nov 21, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> True about free will.  But election is stated by Christ several times. So it is real as well.


Free will and election are mutually exclusive. I deny that man has freedom relative to God. God is sovereign, man is not free.


----------



## Ronnie T (Nov 21, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> By faith Abraham had a choice, what about Jacob & Esau?
> 
> Romans 9:11-12
> though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls
> 12not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger."



In the above scripture Paul is referencing God's election in the nation of Israel (see Eph 1:1-12).
Eph 1:13 then points to we Christians hearing and having faith.(not predetermined election).


----------



## Bob2010 (Nov 21, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Free will and election are mutually exclusive. I deny that man has freedom relative to God. God is sovereign, man is not free.



So you say there is election and we do exactly what God willed us to do before we were born? Love is not true love because it is obligation or we were elected to love someone? Obviously we don't have the freedom God has but do we get to choose between right and wrong?  God and what we want? Or is that all completely laid out for us ahead of time?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Nov 21, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Show it. If we are using Hebrews 11, I see this... By faith Abraham obeyed, sojourned and offered.
> 
> You are forcing choice.



I'm assuming you see this faith Abraham used to obey, etc. as coming from God. Therefore Abraham didn't have a choice but to obey.


----------



## Ronnie T (Nov 21, 2014)

Here's my election:

Eph 1:13 In Him, Ronnie T, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 

I didn't save myself through my faith.  But God mercifully allowed me to become a part of the elect.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Nov 21, 2014)

Ronnie T said:


> In the above scripture Paul is referencing God's election in the nation of Israel (see Eph 1:1-12).
> Eph 1:13 then points to we Christians hearing and having faith.(not predetermined election).



You see God electing a nation but not individuals? Did Israel as a nation have a choice to reject Jesus?
Did God choosing Israel condemn them or save them?


----------



## Ronnie T (Nov 21, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> You see God electing a nation but not individuals? Did Israel as a nation have a choice to reject Jesus?
> Did God choosing Israel condemn them or save them?[/QUOTE]
> 
> God will answer that.  But when Moses returned from the mountain top God considered destroying all of Israel.


----------



## Israel (Nov 21, 2014)

How easily it may seem we "take to ourselves" a something reserved to God alone. I think here of the unprofitable servant.
Jesus describes (if one can receive it) the "perfect" disciple. He has done all of which he has been instructed, and yet what is his attitude?"I am only an unworthy/unprofitable servant, doing only that which I have been told..." And yet, we are also told that there awaits a word I trust we all long to hear..."well done, GOOD and faithful servant..."
It may be that there is a tendency (of us?...of me...surely) to be exposed, to be overcome, (perhaps...better...to be "died" to) in us, that "serving God" is anything but the norm, the simple thing for which man has been given stewardship of "a" life. 
When we seek to take to ourselves, any savoring of what "we" have done in, or for the Lord...there's a reproof, a conviction, a very certain loss...of something. It may well be that, like any self congratulatory spouse...to live for anything but the approval of the other, shortchanges the both...the one whose delight it is to speak in grace of, and for...the other, and the one caught up in such self congratulation.
God knows the inner life we live, the struggles to understand, the forsaking in heart of things once considered quite precious in our own sight...but the which, when abandoned...in hope for a better inheritance, God counts as precious to Himself, that is, in the real practice of the death of his saints. Precious in the sight of the Lord, is the death of his saints.
But the waiting, the refusal, the utter abandonment of all but his word as our life alone, is also a discipline, and I believe a strict one into which our Lord himself entered...for us. And if our faith be true, and motive alone, knowing first, no one "else" need ever know...nor we may learn, especially, no one else could ever understand (for we live not to them) except they be given revelation by the Lord, we may learn the true contentment of Dayenu. It is enough to know God, and because he promises he will not leave us without comfort, in time we may hear, from the lover of our souls, those words of love and reception he reserves to Himself alone, to give.


----------



## hummerpoo (Nov 21, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> By faith Abraham had a choice, ...



12 Now the LORD said to Abram,
“Go forth from your country,
And from your relatives
And from your father’s house,
To the land which I will show you;
2 And I will make you a great nation,
And I will bless you,
And make your name great;
And so you shall be a blessing;
3 And I will bless those who bless you,
And the one who curses you I will curse.
And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.”
4 So Abram went forth as the LORD had spoken to him; ...

Some see a bargain offered;
some see a command

Some see a choice made;
some see obedience

Does that which is seen influence the relationship;
or does the relationship influence that which is seen?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Nov 21, 2014)

Would Gentiles have been saved if the Jews had not rejected Jesus?
By rejecting Jesus, did this make the Gentiles elected and the Jews not chosen for salvation? Were they chosen or blinded for failure?
Did we Gentiles get chosen because of forfeiture? 

How can we look at the whole Old Testament prophesy to continue up until Paul  as Predestined and say everything after Paul isn't predestined until Jesus returns? God has foretold of the return of Jesus. I'm pretty sure he has already decided and knows when Jesus will return. He isn't waiting for a certain chain of events.
So are we to assume everything is predestined/planned up to Paul, then free will is placed into service, to eventually return to Predestination at the return of Jesus?


----------



## hummerpoo (Nov 22, 2014)

Romans 3:
27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from worksof the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Immediately after this Paul explains that no one was ever “elect” by birth.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Nov 22, 2014)

hummerpoo said:


> Romans 3:
> 27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from worksof the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
> 31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
> 
> Immediately after this Paul explains that no one was ever “elect” by birth.



What was  the nation of Israel  elected to do? Do some people see God electing/predestining  nations but yet the individuals in these nations having freewill? 
I hear people say "not all the Jews" turned their backs on Jesus or "God will punish America, but not the whole nation."
So it appears many believe God predestines nations but not individuals. 
Again what were the Jews chosen to do? Have they fulfilled God's plan? Did it happen just like God wanted it to?
Did he control a nation or individuals?


----------



## hummerpoo (Nov 22, 2014)

? Glorify God.
? Probably.
? Glorify God.
? Depends on your meaning of “fulfilled”.
? Immutably.
? Yes.


----------



## Israel (Nov 23, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> Isreal in the spirit of this tread and to the man and all those who made a choice to be a sheep and not a goat, though both know Jesus their king...this is for your choice to be an elect into the kingdom that was" prepared ... since the creation of the world".
> 
> And as you listen to this, know it as an occation when we are praying together two brothers, two sheeps, two disciples, with all others like us who are in him.



Amen, brother.


----------



## gemcgrew (Nov 24, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> So you say there is election and we do exactly what God willed us to do before we were born?


Of course.


Bob2010 said:


> Love is not true love because it is obligation or we were elected to love someone?


How is true love not obligatory?


Bob2010 said:


> Obviously we don't have the freedom God has but do we get to choose between right and wrong? God and what we want?


Choice is not relevant, unless we get to choose what is right and wrong.


Bob2010 said:


> Or is that all completely laid out for us ahead of time?


Completely


----------



## gemcgrew (Nov 24, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm assuming you see this faith Abraham used to obey, etc. as coming from God.


Yes and that is a very persuasive faith.


Artfuldodger said:


> Therefore Abraham didn't have a choice but to obey.


Choice was not relevant, Abraham feared God.


----------



## hobbs27 (Nov 24, 2014)

Who were the elect?


----------



## gemcgrew (Nov 24, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Who were the elect?


Not sure what you mean by "were". The elect are the chosen ones.


----------



## hobbs27 (Nov 24, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Not sure what you mean by "were". The elect are the chosen ones.



"Were". The ones referred to in the scriptures.

What did it mean to be elected or chosen in the scriptures?


----------



## hobbs27 (Nov 24, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> "Were". The ones referred to in the scriptures.
> 
> What did it mean to be elected or chosen in the scriptures?



Would Abraham and Moses been considered the chosen?  What about Cornelius? Is there a difference in the Jew and Gentile elect?

What need of the blood if election before the foundation of the world is the way of salvation?


----------



## hobbs27 (Nov 24, 2014)

Questions just keep coming at me, sorry. But if man has no freewill...why did God ever have to make covenant with man, and why did man break all the previous covenants?


----------



## hummerpoo (Nov 24, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Choice is not relevant, unless we get to choose what is right and wrong.



gem, when you go right to the root like that ... your a real spoilsport.


----------



## Israel (Nov 24, 2014)

Grace includes in its extension a marvelous amount of restraint.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Nov 24, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Questions just keep coming at me, sorry. But if man has no freewill...why did God ever have to make covenant with man, and why did man break all the previous covenants?



While I want to agree, do you see the New Testament Covenant as God's plan "B"?
How do you view the prophesy of the Old foretelling the New? 
Do you see any person in the Bible being controlled by God to perform his plan? If them then why not us?
Why do people say "God is in control?" Does this mean he plays backup to our plans/actions by changing the game as needed to achieve his plan?


----------



## hobbs27 (Nov 25, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> While I want to agree, do you see the New Testament Covenant as God's plan "B"?
> How do you view the prophesy of the Old foretelling the New?
> Do you see any person in the Bible being controlled by God to perform his plan? If them then why not us?
> Why do people say "God is in control?" Does this mean he plays backup to our plans/actions by changing the game as needed to achieve his plan?



I'm asking these questions because I have never really pondered this theology of election to any extent before. It provides a good avenue for those supporting it to prove their point..IMO.

 In your questioning about the plan b and if God plays backup plans. I don't know, but didn't God say it repented Him that He ever made man in Genesis 6.....& that He repented of making Saul king in 1 Samuel15?

 How could God change His mind about man if He hadn't give us freewill? How could He become upset with our behavior if He did not give us freewill to worship Him in obedience, or deny Him in rebellion?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Nov 25, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I'm asking these questions because I have never really pondered this theology of election to any extent before. It provides a good avenue for those supporting it to prove their point..IMO.
> 
> In your questioning about the plan b and if God plays backup plans. I don't know, but didn't God say it repented Him that He ever made man in Genesis 6.....& that He repented of making Saul king in 1 Samuel15?
> 
> How could God change His mind about man if He hadn't give us freewill? How could He become upset with our behavior if He did not give us freewill to worship Him in obedience, or deny Him in rebellion?



Those are very good questions. If salvation is from Grace alone as most of us believe it is, does it really matter if we have free will or if our destiny is in God's hands?
If our very own salvation isn't dependent on anything we do, why should anything else be?

I do believe in some type of Limited Freewill, whatever that means. I don't understand how an omniscient God can repent. Maybe he wears blinders from time to time.
Maybe he gives us some leeway and then changes as we change. Maybe our prayers change his mind. 
Are there any Bible stories of people bargaining with God?


----------



## hobbs27 (Nov 25, 2014)

I always thought of it this way, and I may be wrong, but it seems to me that God gives man freewill to show our love for Him....If we are of Him we will love Him and will be with Him forever, if we are not of Him we choose the world and perish with it

"If you love something, set it free. If it comes back, it was, and always will be yours. If it never returns, it was never yours to begin with.


----------



## Bob2010 (Nov 25, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I always thought of it this way, and I may be wrong, but it seems to me that God gives man freewill to show our love for Him....If we are of Him we will love Him and will be with Him forever, if we are not of Him we choose the world and perish with it
> 
> "If you love something, set it free. If it comes back, it was, and always will be yours. If it never returns, it was never yours to begin with.



I guess that's the difference between those who believe in secure salvation and those who believe salvation can be lost by straying too far from God. I went hunting for a long weekend.  I was hoping you guys would have this all settled and worked out before I returned. I guess not. On some level both election and free will must exist.  I was hoping you guys could help me understand which elements of both were true.  I guess it's like the trinity where we just can't grasp it all. God knows and that will have to be enough.


----------



## hobbs27 (Nov 25, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> I guess that's the difference between those who believe in secure salvation and those who believe salvation can be lost by straying too far from God.



Not really. The churches I have attended from Forsyth, Dawson, Lumpkin, Cherokee, Hall, and White counties are all If saved always saved and freewill. The freewill to reject salvation, and God's calling but once born of the spirit you are a new creature from that moment to eternity.

 I guess this is why it's never been an issue with me.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Nov 25, 2014)

Back before I believed in OSAS, I often asked if one looses his freewill at salvation? I often wondered if one could believe in "Perseverance of the Saints" without the other 4 points.
It was like God chooses us but we can't "not choose God" later down the road. We can choose God when he calls or not. Grace isn't "irresistible" at first but it is once you attain it. To resist God's grace is freewill.


----------



## M80 (Nov 25, 2014)

Question. If hezikahah never prayed to have more years when he was told to get his house in order would God just given him more years. Or do you believe that by his choice he prayed and asked God to give more years. If this elect stuff is for real I guess we should never pray. God will just always do what he wants, but the bible says ask and it shall be given unto you. We must ask, it dosnt say he will force you to ask. It is our option to ask.


----------



## Israel (Nov 26, 2014)

Pray always to the God who has ordained you to salvation.
What else is fitting?


----------



## formula1 (Nov 26, 2014)

*Re:*



Israel said:


> Pray always to the God who has ordained you to salvation.
> What else is fitting?



Amen!

1 Thessalonians 5
16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.


----------



## gemcgrew (Nov 26, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> Question. If hezikahah never prayed to have more years when he was told to get his house in order would God just given him more years. Or do you believe that by his choice he prayed and asked God to give more years.


What prompted Hezekiah's prayer? Was it not a revelation from God? 


mwilliams80 said:


> If this elect stuff is for real I guess we should never pray. God will just always do what he wants, but the bible says ask and it shall be given unto you.


Now we are getting to the heart of the matter. Does God work all things after the counsel of His own will... or does He work some things after the will of man?
"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Ephesians 1:11)


mwilliams80 said:


> We must ask, it dosnt say he will force you to ask. It is our option to ask.


Is it an option if "We must ask"?


----------



## M80 (Nov 27, 2014)

We must ask to receive but it is our choice to ask.


----------



## M80 (Nov 27, 2014)

Gem do you pray and if you do why do you?


----------



## gemcgrew (Nov 27, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> We must ask to receive but it is our choice to ask.


I have no choice in the matter. I am determined to, required to, obliged to, urged to, prompted to, compelled to...

I must!


----------



## gemcgrew (Nov 27, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> Gem do you pray and if you do why do you?


Yes!
I must!

Glory to God!


----------



## Bob2010 (Nov 27, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> Gem do you pray and if you do why do you?



Do you believe you are chosen?  We're you chosen to be God's?


----------



## M80 (Nov 27, 2014)

I was chosen because I chose him


----------



## hobbs27 (Nov 27, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> I was chosen because I chose him





  Im so glad I chose Jesus. This message was predestined for Calvinist.


----------



## gemcgrew (Nov 29, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Would Abraham and Moses been considered the chosen?  What about Cornelius? Is there a difference in the Jew and Gentile elect?


Yes. Yes. No.


hobbs27 said:


> What need of the blood if election before the foundation of the world is the way of salvation?


Election is not salvation. Election is unto salvation. Salvation is of the Lord.


hobbs27 said:


> Questions just keep coming at me, sorry. But if man has no freewill...why did God ever have to make covenant with man, and why did man break all the previous covenants?


If man had freewill, was he free to ignore the covenants? Free from the consequence? If not, is it precisely because God is sovereign and man is not free?


hobbs27 said:


> How could God change His mind about man if He hadn't give us freewill?


If God changed his mind, was it for the better or for the worse? In either case, why trust him?


hobbs27 said:


> How could He become upset with our behavior if He did not give us freewill to worship Him in obedience, or deny Him in rebellion?


Are we free to leave it all alone, and just be? If not, how is freewill relevant?


----------



## gemcgrew (Nov 30, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> I was chosen because I chose him





hobbs27 said:


> Im so glad I chose Jesus. This message was predestined for Calvinist.


Both the writing and reading of it. Some will not read it and they have no choice in the matter... they lack awareness. For those of us that read it, we may question as to why some men proclaim that "what they did for Jesus, he could not do for them". At the same time, we may also question as to why some men proclaim "what Jesus did for them, they could not do for themselves".

They may even consider as to who makes them to differ from another.


----------



## hobbs27 (Nov 30, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> If God changed his mind, was it for the better or for the worse? In either case, why trust him?



 God did change His mind twice we know of because the bible says so.

 But to your question, "  In either case, why trust Him"?

 You mean to tell me you trust God because you choose to?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Nov 30, 2014)

Will we ever know what part of our destiny God controls, Satan controls, we control, and randomness control?
Does any of this change at Salvation? Satan is no longer in control or is he? The Holy Spirit takes control or some control of our lives. If we still sin we blame our old selves. If we're good we praise God for giving us the Holy Spirit. If we don't produce fruits, it's not our fault, just wait on the Holy Spirit. Either that or we weren't really ever saved anyway.


----------



## Bob2010 (Dec 1, 2014)

Seems this topic has stirred people up. I really was blown away by the scripture and I do believe some level of election is true and biblical.  On the flip side If there is no free will there is no true love. A Christians love through Christ is different than a non Christians love. That love is what drew me to Christ.  I didn't know how to love my family until I accepted Christ.  I also am in a constant process of sanctification.  That process is what led me to this question of election. The topic has split one church that I know of. Long time staff, deacons,  and pastors leaving over a difference in belief about election,  salvation,  and how to evangelize. I should of known this could cause friction on the forum. I think a pastor is smart to not take a strong stand for either team but instead support both teams. That is possible because both teams have scripture to support their views. I also have to stand somewhere in the middle.  Some people don't believe that Mary was a virgin.  They think it's too far fetched or fabricated. Even though the Holy Spirit came and confirmed this with her husband.  Scripture is clear about this. That makes Jesus 100% man and 100% God. That is the only sacrifice that will do the job. He is the only man without sin. The rest of us all have sin. He didn't murder or kill his son. He brought himself here as his son. They don't believe because they can't see it with their own eyes. Until the Holy Spirit appears in front of them personally they will not believe Mary was a virgin. A miracle is something we can't understand.  It's something that God has done in Scripture time and time again. To not believe because we can't see it with our own eyes or because it seems to far fetched means we don't believe in miracles either. The truth lies in the middle between election and free will for me. Like a miracle I can't see with my own eyes or understand.  God can and for that I will be grateful. I also will try to be careful with this topic.  I know both teams exist inside my Baptist church.  I would hate to see this difference in belief hurt our unity.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 1, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> God did change His mind twice we know of because the bible says so.


If he changed his mind, he ceased to be the God of the Bible. I recommend a thorough exegesis of the passages you are referring to.


hobbs27 said:


> But to your question, "  In either case, why trust Him"?
> 
> You mean to tell me you trust God because you choose to?


No, I mean to ask you "In either case, why trust Him?"
If God changes his mind, did he change from an inferior position to superior? Or from a superior position to inferior?


----------



## centerpin fan (Dec 1, 2014)




----------



## formula1 (Dec 1, 2014)

*Re:*

Personally, I like this song better!


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 1, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> The topic has split one church that I know of. Long time staff, deacons,  and pastors leaving over a difference in belief about election,  salvation,  and how to evangelize.


So what? Praise God for that! Didn't Christ say, "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."?


Bob2010 said:


> I think a pastor is smart to not take a strong stand for either team but instead support both teams.


And I think he is ignorant of truth.


Bob2010 said:


> A miracle is something we can't understand.


Who has convinced you of this? An ignorant Pastor?


----------



## Bob2010 (Dec 1, 2014)

Can both beliefs not be supported through scripture?  And why would you call a pastor you don't know ignorant?  Even if you do disagree with him? You seem bitter. I brought this topic up to try to get clarity on questions.  I have gotten some clarity.  I didn't know anyone had this topic completely resolved with a solid answer.  I'm glad you have this worked out. My pastor is not ignorant.  In fact he has encouraged me to read the scripture and make my own decision.  That decision is free will and election must both exist.


----------



## hobbs27 (Dec 1, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> If he changed his mind, he ceased to be the God of the Bible. I recommend a thorough exegesis of the passages you are referring to.
> 
> No, I mean to ask you "In either case, why trust Him?"
> If God changes his mind, did he change from an inferior position to superior? Or from a superior position to inferior?



O.K.   does God not change his mind or "repent" of an action He said He would do, because of Moses' pleas?

_Exodus 32: 7 And the Lord said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:

8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

9 And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

11 And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?

12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.

13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.

14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
_


----------



## hummerpoo (Dec 1, 2014)

I see vs. 14, but I also see vs 35:"Then the Lord smote the people, because of what they did with the calf which Aaron had made." (note: "Then" was added in translation)

What I don't see is God changing His mind.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 1, 2014)

hummerpoo said:


> I see vs. 14, but I also see vs 35:"Then the Lord smote the people, because of what they did with the calf which Aaron had made." (note: "Then" was added in translation)
> 
> What I don't see is God changing His mind.



Perhaps God didn't change his mind but why did he smote them if he made Aaron make the Calf? It's almost like they were being punished for something THEY did. Not something GOD made them do.


----------



## hobbs27 (Dec 1, 2014)

hummerpoo said:


> I see vs. 14, but I also see vs 35:"Then the Lord smote the people, because of what they did with the calf which Aaron had made." (note: "Then" was added in translation)
> 
> What I don't see is God changing His mind.



 We see things differently, ( imagine that), most Christians do. I see in verse 10 God says he will consume them. In verse 35 staying with kjv it says He plagued them.

 In that along with the obvious verse 14 that states He repented, I can't help but to believe He changed His mind in a show of love for Moses. And in answering Moses plea.


----------



## hummerpoo (Dec 1, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> And in answering Moses plea.



Moses' plea was to be given the opportunity to participate in God's work.  That plea was granted to show God's gracious power.  After all, it's all about God.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 1, 2014)

Abraham bargains with God to spare Sodom in Genesis 18:16-33.
Abraham's persistence pleases God also.

How does this relate to the power of prayer? Can we bargain with God?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 1, 2014)

Genesis 18:21 – “I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.” 

Why did God need to "go down now and see?" After God goes down, he will know.
Then he sends two angels to warn Lot. Why didn't God warn Lot?

There's a lot about Omnience that I don't understand.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 1, 2014)

Did Satan bargain with God to mess with Job?

Can humans make deals with Satan? How would this be possible without freewill?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 1, 2014)

Satan's Army, demons, & Kingdom whether past or present, whether destroyed at the Cross or still in existence; without freewill, how does it work?

Same scenario, without  God's predestination; how does it work?


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 1, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> We see things differently, ( imagine that), most Christians do. I see in verse 10 God says he will consume them. In verse 35 staying with kjv it says He plagued them.
> 
> In that along with the obvious verse 14 that states He repented, I can't help but to believe He changed His mind in a show of love for Moses. And in answering Moses plea.


Hobbs, if we believe that God changes his mind, how can we know that the futurist are wrong?


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 2, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> Can both beliefs not be supported through scripture?


No. One can.


Bob2010 said:


> And why would you call a pastor you don't know ignorant?  Even if you do disagree with him?


Because I took you at your word, when you described him. You said, "I think a pastor is smart to not take a strong stand for either team but instead support both teams."
When "both teams" hold contradictory understandings, they can not both be right. If the pastor was not ignorant(lacking knowledge), he would not support "both teams". He would preach the truth (2 Timothy 4:2).


Bob2010 said:


> You seem bitter.


If we infer the same meaning of the word, I thank you.


Bob2010 said:


> I brought this topic up to try to get clarity on questions.  I have gotten some clarity.  I didn't know anyone had this topic completely resolved with a solid answer.  I'm glad you have this worked out. My pastor is not ignorant.  In fact he has encouraged me to read the scripture and make my own decision.  That decision is free will and election must both exist.


Fine. You have embraced incompatibility. Enjoy it.


----------



## hobbs27 (Dec 2, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Hobbs, if we believe that God changes his mind, how can we know that the futurist are wrong?



 I just believe what the bible says, and looking into this topic a little deeper than I ever have it seems to me that Calvin tried to simplify an understanding of God but God is greater than that. God can and has changed plans...maybe He knew all along He would, but He has definitely changed course with Covenants, from the elect being descendants of  Abraham in the Old Covenant to whosoever will in the New Covenant.

 Yes God is greater than any systematic rule that man tries to box him into, because He so loved the world, and love doesn't always follow rules.


----------



## hummerpoo (Dec 2, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I just believe what the bible says, and looking into this topic a little deeper than I ever have it seems to me that Calvin tried to simplify an understanding of God but God is greater than that. God can and has changed plans...maybe He knew all along He would, but He has definitely changed course with Covenants, from the elect being descendants of  Abraham in the Old Covenant to whosoever will in the New Covenant.
> 
> Yes God is greater than any systematic rule that man tries to box him into, because He so loved the world, and love doesn't always follow rules.



What is the homocentric view of Romans 4?


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 2, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I just believe what the bible says


That is the issue. Apparently, according to your belief, anything the Bible has to say about anything, is subject to change. 

"God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?"


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 2, 2014)

hummerpoo said:


> What is the homocentric view of Romans 4?


If Romans 4 is subject to change, how could we possibly know?


----------



## Bob2010 (Dec 2, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> No. One can.
> 
> Because I took you at your word, when you described him. You said, "I think a pastor is smart to not take a strong stand for either team but instead support both teams."
> When "both teams" hold contradictory understandings, they can not both be right. If the pastor was not ignorant(lacking knowledge), he would not support "both teams". He would preach the truth (2 Timothy 4:2).
> ...



I find you very annoying.  That being said I bet you know more about the word than I do. Only been a Christian a few years. Now I will have to study more scripture to support my stance.  I ask your patience sir while I do so. I also thank you for this opportunity to explore God's word further.


----------



## hobbs27 (Dec 2, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> That is the issue. Apparently, according to your belief, anything the Bible has to say about anything, is subject to change.
> 
> "God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?"



How could I possibly believe that fulfilled scripture can change? It is recorded, it has happened.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 2, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> How could I possibly believe that fulfilled scripture can change? It is recorded, it has happened.


Exactly!


----------



## hobbs27 (Dec 2, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Exactly!



I think we can say exactly when we recognize that God has repented of some things. He repented in Genesis 6 that He ever made man. He repented later that He made Saul king. He repented about consuming the children of Israel in Deuteronomy.
 The  only difference I see is according to your beliefs  this makes Him a lessor god" or does it?".  To me  He is still the Almighty God even though He has had to do drastic things to  bring us into communion with Him, such as come down in the flesh and be a sacrifice so that whosoever will can be saved.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 2, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> I find you very annoying.


Yea, I get that sometimes.  


Bob2010 said:


> That being said I bet you know more about the word than I do. Only been a Christian a few years. Now I will have to study more scripture to support my stance.  I ask your patience sir while I do so. I also thank you for this opportunity to explore God's word further.


Do not be annoyed, but encouraged. I am encouraged by you and will also continue to study God's word. Don't let me or anybody else tell you that there are some things in the Bible that a Christian can't understand.


----------



## M80 (Dec 2, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I think we can say exactly when we recognize that God has repented of some things. He repented in Genesis 6 that He ever made man. He repented later that He made Saul king. He repented about consuming the children of Israel in Deuteronomy.
> The  only difference I see is according to your beliefs  this makes Him a lessor god" or does it?".  To me  He is still the Almighty God even though He has had to do drastic things to  bring us into communion with Him, such as come down in the flesh and be a sacrifice so that whosoever will can be saved.



Very well said. I believe reconcile comes to mind here. Why was we ever reconciled if God didn't give us free will.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 2, 2014)

Jeremiah 15:6
You have abandoned me and turned your back on me," says the LORD. "Therefore, I will raise my fist to destroy you. I am tired of always giving you another chance.

or;

Thou hast forsaken me, saith the LORD, thou art gone backward: therefore will I stretch out my hand against thee, and destroy thee; I am weary with repenting.

It appears God has freewill. That must really be strange to have omniscience and freewill. 
He also gave others another chance. To give someone another chance would require a choice for the other chance to happen.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 2, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> He repented later that He made Saul king.


Can there be a "later" with God? Is that not our view from within creation? Is it not the same with what might appear to be a "change of mind"?

God is perfect in every way. Any change would be for the worse.


----------



## hobbs27 (Dec 2, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Can there be a "later" with God? Is that not our view from within creation? Is it not the same with what might appear to be a "change of mind"?
> 
> God is perfect in every way. Any change would be for the worse.




Gem... You're taking my statement out of context. When I wrote later I meant later on in the bible.
 I have no problem with anyone's system of belief until that system is exposed lifting up some verses and hiding others. It was because of that I left the Amillenials. It is because of that I can never be a premillenial.

 Now if you really want to explain your position, explain what scripture means when it clearly states that God has repented of certain things. Previously you mentioned a correct exegesis, maybe I have it wrong, please explain the proper exegesis of God repenting, and if your explanation is in line with scripture and in line with predestination, I'll concede this point. My only personal fault with predestination is the hopelessness it places on certain people in this covenant of Grace.


----------



## Bob2010 (Dec 2, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Yea, I get that sometimes.
> 
> Do not be annoyed, but encouraged. I am encouraged by you and will also continue to study God's word. Don't let me or anybody else tell you that there are some things in the Bible that a Christian can't understand.



Thanks.  I will take this as encouragement.  I will study more as well.  So yo can answer all my questions about the trinity?  Seems arrogant or insane to think I am on the same level as God.  That his understanding and knowledge does not exceed mine. That we are capable of understanding all of who he is. Can you perform miracles as he does? Can you tell me how he performed miracles.  Is there no mystery?  To say God can't give us free will and election puts God in a box. Who are any of us to say what God can do? Does God live in a box of limitations set by us? He's God and can do what he wants. I won't disagree that election is real. But so is choice and free will.  Do you serve others from love or obligation?  Do you love others from love or obligation? If you are obligated you might dread sacrifice for family or God. many holes in this we can understand all of God theory.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 2, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Gem... You're taking my statement out of context. When I wrote later I meant later on in the bible.


That is exactly how I took you to mean it.



hobbs27 said:


> I have no problem with anyone's system of belief until that system is exposed lifting up some verses and hiding others. It was because of that I left the Amillenials. It is because of that I can never be a premillenial.
> 
> Now if you really want to explain your position, explain what scripture means when it clearly states that God has repented of certain things. Previously you mentioned a correct exegesis, maybe I have it wrong, please explain the proper exegesis of God repenting, and if your explanation is in line with scripture and in line with predestination, I'll concede this point. My only personal fault with predestination is the hopelessness it places on certain people in this covenant of Grace.


Hobbs, this is not a good venue for that. Shoot an email to me with a verse you have in mind and we will start there. I will pm the address to you.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 2, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> Thanks.  I will take this as encouragement.  I will study more as well.  So yo can answer all my questions about the trinity?


Perhaps



Bob2010 said:


> Seems arrogant or insane to think I am on the same level as God.  That his understanding and knowledge does not exceed mine. That we are capable of understanding all of who he is.


I agree. But we are capable of understanding all of what he reveals about himself in the Bible.


Bob2010 said:


> Can you perform miracles as he does?


If I could, I would be ruling my own creation. As it stands, I rely on his.


Bob2010 said:


> Can you tell me how he performed miracles.


By omnipotent power.


Bob2010 said:


> Is there no mystery?


If by "mystery", you mean something that can not be fully understood, then yes. The existence of God is a mystery to an Atheist. The Atheist has no way to understand, apart from divine revelation to the mind. (2 Corinthians 4)



Bob2010 said:


> To say God can't give us free will and election puts God in a box. Who are any of us to say what God can do?


Christians


Bob2010 said:


> Does God live in a box of limitations set by us?


No


Bob2010 said:


> He's God and can do what he wants.


Of course.


Bob2010 said:


> I won't disagree that election is real. But so is choice and free will.


Fine, but I do disagree.


Bob2010 said:


> Do you serve others from love or obligation?  Do you love others from love or obligation?


Both, in accordance with God's will. I can serve someone out of love and obligation at the same time. 


Bob2010 said:


> If you are obligated you might dread sacrifice for family or God.


Or I might delight in sacrifice for family or God.


Bob2010 said:


> many holes in this we can understand all of God theory.


I agree. Who is espousing this theory?


----------



## Bob2010 (Dec 3, 2014)

[QUOT E=gemcgrew;9135796]Perhaps


I agree. But we are capable of understanding all of what he reveals about himself in the Bible.

I want to believe this but there are many things like the trinity and election that leave me with questions or are conflicting with other scripture.  This doesn't mean that I can't understand the scripture.  It does mean there are conflicting teachings. The choice is trust God understands what I do not or abandon my belief.  Someone on here says constantly that confusion is not where God wants us. I believe that as well.  So why is the admission of not understanding or not knowing which of 2 conflicting scriptures to put your faith in viewed as ignorance? It could be veiwed in trusting God with what I dont comprehend. It's like the guy that says " you know what you otta do! " You never do what that guy says to do. You do the opposite of what he says to do. That's how I feel about the ignorance and we can understand all of scripture remark. If we are capable of understanding all of God's word then why continue study it? Read it once and you got it! More is constantly revealed as we grow through sanctification and studying the word. No free will then you read it once, take the dip underwater,  and sin all you want because your covered and selected for salvation.  Do you have a free pass to sin without repentance?  The what you otta do guy guy seems like he does sometimes. I tend to be more comfortable with the guy that says he doesn't have all the answers. But God does!

If I could, I would be ruling my own creation. As it stands, I rely on his.

By omnipotent power.

If by "mystery", you mean something that can not be fully understood, then yes. The existence of God is a mystery to an Atheist. The Atheist has no way to understand, apart from divine revelation to the mind. (2 Corinthians 4)


Christians
So we have a right or obligation to put God in Box because we are Christian? But we understand that God doesn't live in that box? If he don't live in the box then we as Christians have no business trying to place him there. Talk about a loosing battle! 
No


Of course.

Fine, but I do disagree.

Both, in accordance with God's will. I can serve someone out of love and obligation at the same time. 

 You can do these things of love or obligation.  Even both I agree. But if you have no free will you only do them from obligation.  Meaning there is no love. You can't side step that fact. Obligation is not love. If it's not your choice ( free will ) from love then it's obligation.

Or I might delight in sacrifice for family or God.

I agree. Who is espousing this theory?[/QUOTE]

If you can understand all of God's word perfectly without questions or noticing conflicting scriptures.  It seems you understand God better than everyone else or you need to read more scripture.  Anyone else on this forum understand God's words without questions of conflicting scriptures?  Or questions of things they can't understand?  Chime in now please.  I need some better medication or something!  I can't read and grasp anything completely sometimes.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 3, 2014)

I too see conflicting scriptures. From my quest along the lines of yours, many on this forum say the there are no conflicting scriptures. 
Maybe our free will allows us to re-read and study and God reveals a little more each time. Wait, this would be free will and God's will happening together. I'm with you.


----------



## Bob2010 (Dec 3, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I too see conflicting scriptures. From my quest along the lines of yours, many on this forum say the there are no conflicting scriptures.
> Maybe our free will allows us to re-read and study and God reveals a little more each time. Wait, this would be free will and God's will happening together. I'm with you.




Yup. Both election and free will are real and biblical.


----------



## hummerpoo (Dec 3, 2014)

When we see conflict in Scripture, should we consider that the problem is in the seeing.

That's the first thing I think of.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 3, 2014)

Do we only look for scriptures to back up our already conceived beliefs or look for a balance of scriptures that appear to show both views?


----------



## hummerpoo (Dec 3, 2014)

I think we look for God.


----------



## Bob2010 (Dec 3, 2014)

hummerpoo said:


> I think we look for God.



Faith in God is the only thing you can really rely on to deal with the conflict in Scripture. He understands and we try to understand.  Then we just trust that his understanding is enough.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 3, 2014)

hummerpoo said:


> I think we look for God.



I believe we try but somehow he reveals himself differently to each of us. Even the concept of these various revelations to us all appears to be choice.
I guess it could be all from God and we just don't understand his purpose for doing this.


----------



## hummerpoo (Dec 3, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> Faith in God is the only thing you can really rely on to deal with the conflict in Scripture. He understands and we try to understand.  Then we just trust that his understanding is enough.



Bob,
I think you meant it this way, but I must clarify that those are “seeming conflicts”.
If we have faith in God, then it follows to trust that He will give us understanding when and where it will achieve His purpose.  Because we love God above all else, His purpose and His glory is all that matters to us.  We may yearn to understand His revelation of Himself, but only that we may serve Him more fully.  And the circle is complete as we have faith that He will give understanding of Himself as He, and only He, knows best.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 3, 2014)

hummerpoo said:


> Bob,
> I think you meant it this way, but I must clarify that those are “seeming conflicts”.
> If we have faith in God, then it follows to trust that He will give us understanding when and where it will achieve His purpose.  Because we love God above all else, His purpose and His glory is all that matters to us.  We may yearn to understand His revelation of Himself, but only that we may serve Him more fully.  And the circle is complete as we have faith that He will give understanding of Himself as He, and only He, knows best.



Do you think we yearn for understanding so much that sometimes we try too hard? Perhaps trying to understand before God has completely revealed what he wants us to know?
Maybe we try to close the circle instead of letting God close it.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 3, 2014)

Will God make us become more spiritual so that we can understand these spiritual matters better? Can we do anything to help God do this?


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 3, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> I agree. But we are capable of understanding all of what he reveals about himself in the Bible.





Bob2010 said:


> I want to believe this but there are many things like the trinity and election that leave me with questions or are conflicting with other scripture.  This doesn't mean that I can't understand the scripture.  It does mean there are conflicting teachings. The choice is trust God understands what I do not or abandon my belief.  Someone on here says constantly that confusion is not where God wants us. I believe that as well.  So why is the admission of not understanding or not knowing which of 2 conflicting scriptures to put your faith in viewed as ignorance? It could be veiwed in trusting God with what I dont comprehend. It's like the guy that says " you know what you otta do! " You never do what that guy says to do. You do the opposite of what he says to do. That's how I feel about the ignorance and we can understand all of scripture remark. If we are capable of understanding all of God's word then why continue study it? Read it once and you got it! More is constantly revealed as we grow through sanctification and studying the word. No free will then you read it once, take the dip underwater,  and sin all you want because your covered and selected for salvation.  Do you have a free pass to sin without repentance?  The what you otta do guy guy seems like he does sometimes. I tend to be more comfortable with the guy that says he doesn't have all the answers. But God does!


Brother, I continue to study God's word, not because I choose to but because I HAVE to! I see Christ in every book of the Bible. If I read a chapter and fail to see him, I read it again and again and again. I have to see him! Is this so hard to understand? I have no freedom relative to God. He made me willing in the day of his power. Did you know that he does this? That the scriptures declare it? If not, keep studying if you also HAVE to. You may be made to be just as annoying as me. 



Bob2010 said:


> To say God can't give us free will and election puts God in a box. Who are any of us to say what God can do?





gemcgrew said:


> Christians





Bob2010 said:


> So we have a right or obligation to put God in Box because we are Christian? But we understand that God doesn't live in that box? If he don't live in the box then we as Christians have no business trying to place him there. Talk about a loosing battle!


I was answering the question highlighted in blue. Christians can say what God can do. The scriptures tell us what to say.




Bob2010 said:


> You can do these things of love or obligation.  Even both I agree. But if you have no free will you only do them from obligation.  Meaning there is no love. You can't side step that fact. Obligation is not love. If it's not your choice ( free will ) from love then it's obligation.


Nonsense



Bob2010 said:


> If you can understand all of God's word perfectly without questions or noticing conflicting scriptures.  It seems you understand God better than everyone else or you need to read more scripture.  Anyone else on this forum understand God's words without questions of conflicting scriptures?  Or questions of things they can't understand?  Chime in now please.  I need some better medication or something!  I can't read and grasp anything completely sometimes.


And this may be why you are adding so much more to what I have said.


----------



## Bob2010 (Dec 4, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Brother, I continue to study God's word, not because I choose to but because I HAVE to! I see Christ in every book of the Bible. If I read a chapter and fail to see him, I read it again and again and again. I have to see him! Is this so hard to understand? I have no freedom relative to God. He made me willing in the day of his power. Did you know that he does this? That the scriptures declare it? If not, keep studying if you also HAVE to. You may be made to be just as annoying as me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I really do see both sides backed up in scripture.  How do you choose which to believe.  If I believe one is true than I must believe the other is true. I can choose confusion or faith that God has and will allow me to understand in his time. Pretending only one side is true or ignoring the scripture that does not support what I want to be true defeats the purpose of being elected by God in the first place. No surrender,  no choice, sounds like sin! That's just like it was when I had a good drug habbit. I felt I had no choice and surrender was out of the question. It was choice and surrender is what the holy spirit used to alert me I was elected. Your views seem to be valid and supported in Scripture.  It just appear to me there are blinders on ignoring other scripture.  Yet I am uncertain and you are not. So maybe more will be revealed to me.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 4, 2014)

How is Romans chapter 9 viewed as to promote freewill?

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 4, 2014)

God made Satan knowing full well that he would rebel. God might not have made Satan rebel but with his foreknowledge God knew Satan would. This had to be part of God's plan or either God can't operate out of the boundaries that he created for himself.

I still don't see how free will is possible with God's foreknowledge. How could Satan not have rebelled if God had already foreseen that he would? How could Adam not have sinned if God already knew that he would? In fact God already had a plan for the salvation of Adam's sin in place before Adam sinned. It was in the form of the Word.


----------



## Bob2010 (Dec 4, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> God made Satan knowing full well that he would rebel. God might not have made Satan rebel but with his foreknowledge God knew Satan would. This had to be part of God's plan or either God can't operate out of the boundaries that he created for himself.
> 
> I still don't see how free will is possible with God's foreknowledge. How could Satan not have rebelled if God had already foreseen that he would? How could Adam not have sinned if God already knew that he would? In fact God already had a plan for the salvation of Adam's sin in place before Adam sinned. It was in the form of the Word.



So you agree with Gem? All election and no free will? I need to study.  Trying to study about baptism right now so I can be praying with my kids about it. That's more important than this nagging feeling to study free will in the bible.  But I'm going to have to do both. This really bothers me.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 4, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> So you agree with Gem? All election and no free will? I need to study.  Trying to study about baptism right now so I can be praying with my kids about it. That's more important than this nagging feeling to study free will in the bible.  But I'm going to have to do both. This really bothers me.



No I don't agree with Gem. I just wish someone could convince me not to. His answers are better than the freewill believer's answers.
I haven't been convinced of either so I'll stay in the same boat as you. I'm amazed at the others who have made up their minds to believe in one or the other. The one's who know for sure what the answer is.
Sometimes you just have to walk away and let the Spirit reveal it later if he is so lead.


----------



## centerpin fan (Dec 4, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> Trying to study about baptism right now ...



Please don't start a thread about it.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 4, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> How could Adam not have sinned if God already knew that he would? In fact God already had a plan for the salvation of Adam's sin in place before Adam sinned. It was in the form of the Word.


----------



## M80 (Dec 4, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> No I don't agree with Gem. I just wish someone could convince me not to. His answers are better than the freewill believer's answers.
> I haven't been convinced of either so I'll stay in the same boat as you. I'm amazed at the others who have made up their minds to believe in one or the other. The one's who know for sure what the answer is.
> Sometimes you just have to walk away and let the Spirit reveal it later if he is so lead.




I like this very much. I'm here to help, I'm a miserable failure when I comes to explaining thing. Sometimes I wish I could just rip my heart out so people could see. Through prayer and seeking The Lord he will give you peace. Man makes things complicated.


----------



## Bob2010 (Dec 4, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> Please don't start a thread about it.



Cmon now! If you read everything to this point surely another thread you will read too.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 4, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> [/COLOR]I like this very much. I'm here to help, I'm a miserable failure when I comes to explaining thing. Sometimes I wish I could just rip my heart out so people could see. Through prayer and seeking The Lord he will give you peace. Man makes things complicated.



I think you are doing very well. I don't always agree with you but you hold your own.
Do you believe God has predestined anything? If so, how do you separate what God has predestined to things of free will? When you read the Bible, do you see prophesy as God's foreknowledge of free will or God's control?
Romans chapter 9 as and example.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 4, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


>



How about this? Since God has already seen how everything will happen, It has to happen that way.
Even if someone says God could change something, God would have already seen that change. Therefore he would have already made that change. If he had already made that change then it wasn't really a change because it was already predestined and couldn't happen any other way. 
So the change wasn't really a change because God  already knew he was going to do it. We might think it is a change but to God it really wasn't.
Man that's some deep stuff!


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 4, 2014)

God's foreknowledge prevents us from doing anything different from what God already knows we will do. Regardless of free will or election our life is predestined. 
There really isn't much difference in the outcome of election or free will. Maybe we do have a choice but God knowing what that choice is prevents us from making a different choice without God knowing what that choice is too. It's already happened and wrote in a bunch of books. Free will could be something we all think we have and yet we can't vary from what God already knows. 
God's foreknowledge would prevent God from changing. How can God change what he knows will already happen?  If God can't change then neither can we.


----------



## centerpin fan (Dec 4, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> Cmon now! If you read everything to this point ...



I haven't.  Sometimes I start at the end and read backwards.  This is one of those times.


----------



## centerpin fan (Dec 4, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> Cmon now! If you read everything to this point surely another thread you will read too.



Subject's been beaten to death.  It was then beheaded and burned at the stake.


----------



## hummerpoo (Dec 4, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> ... Sometimes I start at the end and read backwards ...



Does that explain those strange videos? Keep'em comin'.


----------



## hummerpoo (Dec 4, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> [/COLOR]I like this very much. I'm here to help, I'm a miserable failure when I comes to explaining thing. Sometimes I wish I could just rip my heart out so people could see. Through prayer and seeking The Lord he will give you peace. Man makes things complicated.



Amen to that.
How you can know that and still put so much faith in men is beyond me, but that’s OK, because your heart is right out there for me to see.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 4, 2014)

hummerpoo said:


> Does that explain those strange videos? Keep'em comin'.



Perhaps I missed the video referenced?


----------



## M80 (Dec 4, 2014)

I've  been doing some thinking. For the elect, I sure would hate to know that I was elected, my wife, and son, but God didn't elect my little girl and he sent her to he11. Now explain that one.


----------



## hummerpoo (Dec 4, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> I've  been doing some thinking. For the elect, I sure would hate to know that I was elected, my wife, and son, but God didn't elect my little girl and he sent her to he11. Now explain that one.



How would you know?


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 4, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> I've  been doing some thinking. For the elect, I sure would hate to know that I was elected, my wife, and son, but God didn't elect my little girl and he sent her to he11. Now explain that one.


Why are you speaking as if you are not one of the elect?
If I did know that my little girl is going to He11, I know that Christ would provide my peace and comfort. I would also know that it is good for God to send her to He11, along with 100,000 or 100,000,000 other little girls if so be.

As a matter of fact, I do know that my little girl is going to He11... if Christ did not satisfy the wrath and justice of God... in her stead.


----------



## M80 (Dec 5, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Why are you speaking as if you are not one of the elect?
> If I did know that my little girl is going to He11, I know that Christ would provide my peace and comfort. I would also know that it is good for God to send her to He11, along with 100,000 or 100,000,000 other little girls if so be.
> 
> As a matter of fact, I do know that my little girl is going to He11... if Christ did not satisfy the wrath and justice of God... in her stead.


----------



## M80 (Dec 5, 2014)

hummerpoo said:


> How would you know?



What do you mean how would you know.


----------



## Bob2010 (Dec 5, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> What do you mean how would you know.



He chooses through free will to believe he is elected! Lol!


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 5, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> What do you mean how would you know.



How would you know your little girl went to He11 is what I think he is asking?


----------



## M80 (Dec 5, 2014)

hummerpoo said:


> How would you know?



So I can raise my children in church. Read the bible to them and tell them about Jesus, who gave his life for them. Explain he11, see them raised in church, devoting there life to him, and God say um, nay, I'm not going to give them an opportunity to go to heaven. Boy if this was the way it is we might as we teach or children to party, drink, do drugs, sleep around and don't worry because if god had elected you it's ok do what you want. He will make sure you will go to heaven. Hog Wash.


----------



## Big7 (Dec 5, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> They deny it every day with their own sin and rejection of Christ.
> 
> The reason so many have difficulty with it is because man is prideful and wants to be in control of all things. ..including his spiritual destiny.



Hey RJ. Been a while. Hope you and Mrs. RJ are doing well.

Sorry I'm late to the party. You know my position on this one.

For the ones that don't, I'll keep it short.

There are NO "elect" except for Mary, Mother of God,
the vessel chosen to bring Christ into this world
by the Father and Mary's Mother. 
The Immaculate Conception has nothing to do with The Virgin Mary
conceiving Christ in the conventional manner.
In other words, free from the cooperation of man.

Long story.. Look it up.

"Elect" are kinda like "OSAS".

You (I say that as in "all of us") must continually 
strive to be Christ-like, to the best of your ability
and knowledge.

Can't just say "I'm elect" or "I'm saved", then turn right around and sin without fear of repercussion.

God gave you a mind and free will, the rest is up to
YOU. 

God Bless.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 5, 2014)

How you get this...


mwilliams80 said:


> So I can raise my children in church. Read the bible to them and tell them about Jesus, who gave his life for them. Explain he11, see them raised in church, devoting there life to him, and God say um, nay, I'm not going to give them an opportunity to go to heaven. Boy if this was the way it is we might as we teach or children to party, drink, do drugs, sleep around and don't worry because if god had elected you it's ok do what you want. He will make sure you will go to heaven. Hog Wash.


From this...


hummerpoo said:


> How would you know?


Is bizarre to me.


----------



## hummerpoo (Dec 5, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> So I can raise my children in church. Read the bible to them and tell them about Jesus, who gave his life for them. Explain he11, see them raised in church, devoting there life to him, and God say um, nay, I'm not going to give them an opportunity to go to heaven. Boy if this was the way it is we might as we teach or children to party, drink, do drugs, sleep around and don't worry because if god had elected you it's ok do what you want. He will make sure you will go to heaven. Hog Wash.



You sound like you decide whether or not you will obey God based on what you believe He will do for you and yours in return.  That’s not it is it?  That would be putting God to the test.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 5, 2014)

Big7 said:


> There are NO "elect" except for Mary, Mother of God,
> the vessel chosen to bring Christ into this world
> by the Father and Mary's Mother.
> The Immaculate Conception has nothing to do with The Virgin Mary
> ...



If Mary Mother of God was elected then wouldn't it also mean that her earthly parents, grandparents, and on & on were elected?  Unless Mary was immaculately conceived too.

What about Pharaoh, Judas, Peter, or Saul? Does Bible prophesy show God's foreknowledge of men's freewill or God's will?


----------



## hummerpoo (Dec 5, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> He chooses through free will to believe he is elected! Lol!



Actually, I don’t know for sure that I am of the elect; not 100%.  God is God, I can’t do anything but stand in awe of that fact.  My election does not change that.  What I do the next minute, or the next day is based on His will; succeed or fail in discernment, succeed or fail in deed, that is a temporal perception; the next step must be on that same basis.  What else can one do before God.


----------



## M80 (Dec 5, 2014)

hummerpoo said:


> Actually, I don’t know for sure that I am of the elect; not 100%.  God is God, I can’t do anything but stand in awe of that fact.  My election does not change that.  What I do the next minute, or the next day is based on His will; succeed or fail in discernment, succeed or fail in deed, that is a temporal perception; the next step must be on that same basis.  What else can one do before God.



Are you saved, have you truly been washed in the precious blood of Jesus?


----------



## M80 (Dec 5, 2014)

hummerpoo said:


> You sound like you decide whether or not you will obey God based on what you believe He will do for you and yours in return.  That’s not it is it?  That would be putting God to the test.



No that's not why I choose to do his will, but your right, I do choose to obey him or not. I'll admit, I've failed him many of times but he has never failed me Praise The Lord.


----------



## M80 (Dec 5, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Why are you speaking as if you are not one of the elect?
> If I did know that my little girl is going to He11, I know that Christ would provide my peace and comfort. I would also know that it is good for God to send her to He11, along with 100,000 or 100,000,000 other little girls if so be.
> 
> As a matter of fact, I do know that my little girl is going to He11... if Christ did not satisfy the wrath and justice of God... in her stead.



I ask you also, are you saved, have you been washed in the blood of Jesus.


----------



## hummerpoo (Dec 6, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> Are you saved, have you truly been washed in the precious blood of Jesus?



I declare God to be true, and Jesus Christ His Son.  I can not claim myself.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 6, 2014)

That's the way election works. If election is of God not dependent on anything we do, then God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy.
Now the other way, free will, means God will have mercy on those whom he will have mercy, but only after they choose.
This puts man back in the equation of his own salvation. Which most say salvation is totally from God. Nothing we do can save ourselves.

Now if salvation is of God and God used his foreknowledge to look ahead and see who will choose him, how can we change anything now? God has already chosen us or not, based on his foreknowledge. How can we change God?


----------



## Israel (Dec 6, 2014)

It almost appears we have God stuck in time.
I don't believe it's Saturday in heaven.


----------



## barryl (Dec 6, 2014)

Romans 10:1-4 KJV AV  Forsake "your" righteousness and believe on the "Perfect Righteousness of God", The Lord Jesus Christ!


----------



## M80 (Dec 6, 2014)

hummerpoo said:


> I declare God to be true, and Jesus Christ His Son.  I can not claim myself.



So you don't know if your going to heaven or he11


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 6, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> I ask you also, are you saved, have you been washed in the blood of Jesus.


I have a good hope. My hope is in Christ alone. Salvation is of the Lord.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 6, 2014)

Israel said:


> It almost appears we have God stuck in time.
> I don't believe it's Saturday in heaven.


When a man is given to consider that, he may be also given to realize "Hey, this isn't about me at all".


----------



## M80 (Dec 6, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> I have a good hope. My hope is in Christ alone. Salvation is of the Lord.



So you don't know if your going to heaven or he11?  Your just hoping. It would not be out of line for me to say if you don't know your saved, you probably are not.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 6, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> So you don't know if your going to heaven or he11?  Your just hoping. It would not be out of line for me to say if you don't know your saved, you probably are not.


And your saying it does not change the fact that I have not met God yet in judgement. Although the verdict is settled, I have yet to hear it. I hope in Christ alone. I am resting in Christ alone.


----------



## M80 (Dec 6, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> And your saying it does not change the fact that I have not met God yet in judgement. Although the verdict is settled, I have yet to hear it. I hope in Christ alone. I am resting in Christ alone.



The bible says these things are written that you may know. I know I'm going to heaven, not because of what I've said, but according to the word of God. 

With someone not knowing and just hoping why work for The Lord. Y'all don't believe it is of works I know. I know hope is in the bible. I've done very much studying in this word. To hope in The Lord is not a hope but a promise because he can never lie, but to say your hoping God has picked you must be a scary way of living.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 6, 2014)

This is getting interesting. Those who believe in election don't have assurance of salvation yet those who believe in free will have assurance.
It's not really a hard concept when you think about it. The elect believers  don't know for sure because salvation is of the Lord. Free will believers know because of something they have done to gain this assurance. They believe and have faith that Jesus died for their sins.
Then there is that group of believers who say works and fruit must show as proof. Although they aren't sure how long the Holy Spirit waits to produce this fruit. 
I'll just stick to Easy Believism.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 6, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> The bible says these things are written that you may know. I know I'm going to heaven, not because of what I've said, but according to the word of God.
> 
> With someone not knowing and just hoping why work for The Lord. Y'all don't believe it is of works I know. I know hope is in the bible. I've done very much studying in this word. To hope in The Lord is not a hope but a promise because he can never lie, but to say your hoping God has picked you must be a scary way of living.


I had a Pastor tell me this one time, after he locked me in his office and said the sinner's prayer for me. While it is true that God can not lie, this Pastor left out that the Bible says that God causes men to believe a lie. I think that this Pastor was such a man.

If resting in Christ is a scary way to live, I am scared to death.


----------



## hummerpoo (Dec 6, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> So you don't know if your going to heaven or he11



I know that God is good.


----------



## hummerpoo (Dec 6, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> I have a good hope. My hope is in Christ alone. Salvation is of the Lord.



Hope is a good thing.
Scripture speaks very well of it.
(53 times; I checked)


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 6, 2014)

hummerpoo said:


> Hope is a good thing.
> Scripture speaks very well of it.
> (53 times; I checked)


What does Scripture have to do with anything?


----------



## hobbs27 (Dec 6, 2014)

hummerpoo said:


> Hope is a good thing.
> Scripture speaks very well of it.
> (53 times; I checked)



And many times " hope" in scripture doesn't mean maybe but means assurance.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 6, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> And many times " hope" in scripture doesn't mean maybe but means assurance.


Yes, and many times both hope and assurance are a matter of faith.


----------



## hobbs27 (Dec 6, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Yes, and many times both hope and assurance are a matter of faith.



Yep! Faith in Christ gives me assurance I am saved, not to mention the relationship.

 Im very familiar with this part of the relationship in Hebrews 12: to ask mwilliams question in a different way, are you familiar with this? If so you should have assurance.

7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. 11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 6, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Yep! Faith in Christ gives me assurance I am saved, not to mention the relationship.
> 
> Im very familiar with this part of the relationship in Hebrews 12: to ask mwilliams question in a different way, are you familiar with this? If so you should have assurance.


Yes, I am very familiar with it. I have all the assurance God provides me . It is God who stripped me of my own self-assurance. I trust and rest fully in the finished work of Christ. What God established eternally, is being revealed to me in time. I have been sought and found... it is a great time of love.


----------



## M80 (Dec 6, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Yes, I am very familiar with it. I have all the assurance God provides me . It is God who stripped me of my own self-assurance. I trust and rest fully in the finished work of Christ. What God established eternally, is being revealed to me in time. I have been sought and found... it is a great time of love.



You have been sought and found. So you do know for sure. 

I do not own my salvation. I was bought with a price, the precious blood of Jesus who gave himself for me. He owns me cause he bought me. I have assurance in him Because of his word


----------



## Israel (Dec 6, 2014)

But Paul said, "I am not out of my mind, most excellent Festus, but I utter words of sober truth. "For the king knows about these matters, and I speak to him also with confidence, since I am persuaded that none of these things escape his notice; for this has not been done in a corner. "King Agrippa, do you believe the Prophets? I know that you do."


----------



## M80 (Dec 6, 2014)

Israel said:


> But Paul said, "I am not out of my mind, most excellent Festus, but I utter words of sober truth. "For the king knows about these matters, and I speak to him also with confidence, since I am persuaded that none of these things escape his notice; for this has not been done in a corner. "King Agrippa, do you believe the Prophets? I know that you do."



And he said almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian. 

I reckon he choose not to believe.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 6, 2014)

What becomes of my free will when I have been crucified with Christ; and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me." Galatians 2:20?

If one completely surrenders to Christ either by personal choice or the work of the Holy Spirit, does this mean you give up your free will and start letting God live your life? 
Or do you somehow keep your free will and live your life for God?

If your life has already been written in the books, and/or God knows how you have lived your life, how can you change it now?
If you suddenly change something, God already knew you would and it's not really a change.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 6, 2014)

With either belief Grace is free.
With free will wouldn't that make the cost of discipleship or sanctification costly?


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 7, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> You have been sought and found. So you do know for sure.


You have me going from "probably not saved" to "you do know for sure", all in the span of 12 post or 5 hours. 

I believe that I shall continue to trust God in the matter of salvation.


----------



## M80 (Dec 7, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> You have me going from "probably not saved" to "you do know for sure", all in the span of 12 post or 5 hours.
> 
> I believe that I shall continue to trust God in the matter of salvation.



You misunderstood me. I quoted you. I never said I know for sure. You are confusing. You lead on to me sometimes you know for sure you are saved and then not.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 7, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> You misunderstood me. I quoted you. I never said I know for sure. You are confusing. You lead on to me sometimes you know for sure you are saved and then not.


I think that the confusion is in what we infer by the words "saved", "God", "Christ", "me", "know", "hope", etc.


----------



## hummerpoo (Dec 7, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> I think that the confusion is in what we infer by the words "saved", "God", "Christ", "me", "know", "hope", etc.



I had the same experience at #153.

Babel revisited?

Anyone else ever wonder if maybe "confuse their language" might mean more than seen at first glance?


----------



## Bob2010 (Dec 8, 2014)

hummerpoo said:


> Actually, I don’t know for sure that I am of the elect; not 100%.  God is God, I can’t do anything but stand in awe of that fact.  My election does not change that.  What I do the next minute, or the next day is based on His will; succeed or fail in discernment, succeed or fail in deed, that is a temporal perception; the next step must be on that same basis.  What else can one do before God.



is election not the same as being chosen for salvation?  Because I am confident scripture says if you believe Jesus is the Son of God, that he died on the cross for your sins, rose from the dead 3 days later, and now resides in heaven. For you believe and repent you are saved.


----------



## Bob2010 (Dec 8, 2014)

Proverbs 16:9 (NKJV)

9CensoredA man’s heart plans his way,
But theCensoredLordCensoreddirects his steps.

Freewill and election.


----------



## M80 (Dec 8, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> Proverbs 16:9 (NKJV)
> 
> 9CensoredA man’s heart plans his way,
> But theCensoredLordCensoreddirects his steps.
> ...



A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps. (Proverbs‬ 16‬:9‬ KJV)

All free will


----------



## Israel (Dec 8, 2014)

hummerpoo said:


> I had the same experience at #153.
> 
> Babel revisited?
> 
> Anyone else ever wonder if maybe "confuse their language" might mean more than seen at first glance?



I do not think I know what some may mean when they say "free".


----------



## hummerpoo (Dec 8, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> is election not the same as being chosen for salvation?


My stab at it would be: Is Biblical election not the same as being unconditionally chosen for salvation?
Biblical refers to that which has been revealed by God.
Unconditionally refers to God not having revealed any condition that must be met by us or Him prior to the choosing. 




> Because I am confident scripture says if you believe


Believing is conditioned upon being regenerated/born again/born from above/born of the Spirit/given a new heart/etc.



> Jesus


His name in the flesh, where He showed perfect “love of God” through perfect obedience



> is the Son of God,


His name in the Spirit, showing His deity



> that he died on the cross for your sins,


where He showed perfect “love your neighbor …”
(not saying there was nothing else)




> rose from the dead 3 days later,


Proving His power over death.



> and now resides in heaven.


As the perfect High Priest.



> For you believe and repent


What else can one do before God?



> you are saved.


If God chose.
(see: if you believe, above)

It’s all about God.
Hallelujah!


----------



## hummerpoo (Dec 8, 2014)

Israel said:


> I do not think I know what some may mean when they say "free".



Now there's a thought worthy of some thinkin'.


----------



## hobbs27 (Dec 8, 2014)

Israel said:


> I do not think I know what some may mean when they say "free".



Freedom to me from a biblical standpoint is:

Freedom from condemnation by man.

Freedom from death.

Freedom from sin.

Freedom from the letter of the law.

Freedom from a remote physical kingdom.

Freedom into Christ.

Freedom into eternal life.

Freedom into grace.

Freedom into the Holy Spirit.

Freedom into a global spiritual kingdom.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 8, 2014)

hummerpoo said:


> What else can one do before God?


By "before", meaning "prior to" or "in the presence of"? I like it either way!


----------



## Israel (Dec 9, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Freedom to me from a biblical standpoint is:
> 
> Freedom from condemnation by man.
> 
> ...



Thanks, brother.
I appreciate your elucidation of those things.


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 9, 2014)

Israel said:


> Thanks, brother.
> I appreciate your elucidation of those things.




Just in case one ventures to  excessive liberties as to  the meaning of elucidate, currently the "unbabled" ( a new word) definition is as follows:



verb (used with object), elucidated, elucidating.
1.
to make lucid or clear; throw light upon; explain:
an explanation that elucidated his recent strange behavior.
Synonyms: clarify, illuminate.

Can I venture to say that your post Isreal is wry " 1.)Dryly humorous 2. Temporarily twisted in an expression of distaste or displeasure:" or have I over reached  and contributed to the confusion tower? Are you at least partly guilty of impatience and flying off the cuff?

Or am I simply being a prig? A prig, sometimes spelled prigg, is a person who shows an inordinately zealous approach to matters of form and propriety...


----------



## hobbs27 (Dec 9, 2014)

Oh, it is so complicated to tame the sesquipedalianalist.


----------



## EverGreen1231 (Dec 9, 2014)

I feel that to understand the relationship between predestination (elect) and freewill would be to have an understanding of God's perception of time. The Bible is clear that ALL can come to the cross if, once moved by the holy ghost, they so choose; it is also clear that God predestinated them. I do not claim to understand this relationship, and I will not try and mar the subject with expansive amounts of rhetoric. I believe God: I'm relying on his promise: If he says I am both free to come and predestinated, then so be it; it is not necessary I understand it, only believe.


----------



## Bob2010 (Dec 9, 2014)

EverGreen1231 said:


> I feel that to understand the relationship between predestination (elect) and freewill would be to have an understanding of God's perception of time. The Bible is clear that ALL can come to the cross if, once moved by the holy ghost, they so choose; it is also clear that God predestinated them. I do not claim to understand this relationship, and I will not try and mar the subject with expansive amounts of rhetoric. I believe God: I'm relying on his promise: If he says I am both free to come and predestinated, then so be it; it is not necessary I understand it, only believe.



Yes! That's what I believe.  Just had no words to describe it. Unless you have something to dispute this with words I can understand.  I say problem solved.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 9, 2014)

EverGreen1231 said:


> The Bible is clear that ALL can come to the cross if, once moved by the holy ghost, they so choose; it is also clear that God predestinated them. I do not claim to understand this relationship, and I will not try and mar the subject with expansive amounts of rhetoric.


Says the man... who just tried to explain the relationship.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 9, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> Yes! That's what I believe.  Just had no words to describe it. Unless you have something to dispute this with words I can understand.  I say problem solved.


"The Bible is clear that ALL can come to the cross if, once moved by the holy ghost, they so choose; it is also clear that God predestinated them."

Does man choose to be moved by the Holy Ghost? If not, then choice is not relevant. 

God moves things. Things do not move God.


----------



## EverGreen1231 (Dec 9, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Says the man... who just tried to explain the relationship.



Explanation and understanding are two vastly different things.


----------



## EverGreen1231 (Dec 9, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> "The Bible is clear that ALL can come to the cross if, once moved by the holy ghost, they so choose; it is also clear that God predestinated them."
> 
> Does man choose to be moved by the Holy Ghost? If not, then choice is not relevant.



The scriptures are clear that once conviction has set in, we have a choice to make. God convicts us of our sin through the Law; we accept our state; we either ask to receive the gift and walk in light, or not. It's so simple even I can understand it. 



gemcgrew said:


> God moves things. Things do not move God.



Draw nigh to God, and He will draw nigh to you...initiated by man. The Bible is full of instances where, if we would like God to move in our favor, we have to do something to initiate his movement. Call it whatever you like.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 9, 2014)

EverGreen1231 said:


> The scriptures are clear that once conviction has set in, we have a choice to make. God convicts us of our sin through the Law; we accept our state; we either ask to receive the gift and walk in light, or not. It's so simple even I can understand it.


If we did not choose to be convicted, choice is not relevant.


EverGreen1231 said:


> Draw nigh to God, and He will draw nigh to you...initiated by man. The Bible is full of instances where, if we would like God to move in our favor, we have to do something to initiate his movement. Call it whatever you like.


So man is self-existent? God moves the man... to draw nigh to God.


----------



## EverGreen1231 (Dec 9, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> If we did not choose to be convicted, choice is not relevant.



It seems that you believe all that is necessary to know salvation is conviction; that doctrine is dangerous and untrue.



gemcgrew said:


> So man is self-existent? God moves the man... to draw nigh to God.



Never said, or even eluded to, a self-existent man. Simply said, in some cases, God asks man to initiate the process.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 9, 2014)

EverGreen1231 said:


> It seems that you believe all that is necessary to know salvation is conviction; that doctrine is dangerous and untrue.


All that is necessary for salvation is provided by God.


EverGreen1231 said:


> Never said, or even eluded to, a self-existent man. Simply said, in some cases, God asks man to initiate the process.


What you eluded to is that man possesses freedom relative to God. I can only see a self-existent man possessing such freedom.


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 9, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> "The Bible is clear that ALL can come to the cross if, once moved by the holy ghost, they so choose; it is also clear that God predestinated them."
> 
> Does man choose to be moved by the Holy Ghost? If not, then choice is not relevant.
> 
> God moves things. Things do not move God.



I don't expect a reply because I probably misunderstand  that man does not choose to be moved by the Holy Ghost?Hum.  At what point in the request or the motivation for the unknown,  yet a place sensed in the devine,-- in Christ, in the Holy Spirit, in God,--- is a person's choice moved by God?

I'm thinking of Zack who climbed a tree just out of curiosity and that he made the decision to lodge the stranger Jesus from Jesus's request for a place to stay? At what point did their relationship begin? 

Now all are redeemed in God, or all are predestined to be redeemed in God, -- that is  those in relationship with Him. But lets say that before brother Zack met Jesus he was not redeemed as witness from his behaviors pre and post choosing to let Jesus come into his house.

So Zack is predestined to be redeemed by his relationship with God and that relationship is his choice, not God's. So Zack is predestined to be saved  - an elect-  if in relationship with God. I think that scripture is clear that human beings, and angels have free will. Mary the mother of Jesus was free to say yes or no to God-- otherwise why bother sending an angle to ask her ?

 I don't see this as a chicken or egg story. The chicken is there, but if not in your coup, it is just something to look at and the eggs well ---something to just marvel on... I mean the whole reason for the great commission is to let people make a choice regards the Good News. If they were predestined to be elect, why bother with ministry period!

Now that things don't move God. Maybe but what about the cries of the Hebrews when them folk were objects in ancient Egypt? God heard them and was moved I think.  And Blind Bart, was Jesus moved even against his desciples, into paying attention to his pleas? Did Adam and Eve move God to move them?  When we do unto the least as per Jesus's command, do we move   the kingdom as to making a little headway.... to when all will be in all? Don't know?


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 9, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> I don't expect a reply because I probably misunderstand  that man does not choose to be moved by the Holy Ghost?Hum.


If I understand you correctly, I would answer this way. If man chooses to be moved by the Holy Ghost, wouldn't it be by his bad choice, seeing that there is none that doeth good?


gordon 2 said:


> At what point in the request or the motivation for the unknown,  yet a place sensed in the devine,-- in Christ, in the Holy Spirit, in God,--- is a person's choice moved by God?


At all points.


gordon 2 said:


> I'm thinking of Zack who climbed a tree just out of curiosity and that he made the decision to lodge the stranger Jesus from Jesus's request for a place to stay? At what point did their relationship begin?


Eternally.

I believe that there is much more in that "just out of curiosity" than you are supposing.   



gordon 2 said:


> Now all are redeemed in God, or all are predestined to be redeemed in God, -- that is  those in relationship with Him. But lets say that before Zack met Jesus he was not redeemed as witness from his behaviors pre and post choosing to let Jesus come into his house.
> 
> So Zack is predestined to be redeemed by his relationship with God and that relationship is his choice, not God's. So Zack is predestined to be saved  - an elect-  if in relationship with God. I think that scripture is clear that human beings, and angles have free will. Mary the mother of Jesus was free to say yes or no to God-- otherwise why bother sending an angle to ask her ?
> 
> I don't see this as a chicken or egg story. The chicken is there, but if not in your coup, it is just something to look at and the eggs well ---something to just marvel on...


I see quite a bit in the above statement that I believe is wrong. I hope to address it later, as time permits.


gordon 2 said:


> I mean the whole reason for the great commission is to let people make a choice regards the Good News.


I thought it was to teach and baptize.


gordon 2 said:


> If they were predestined to be elect, why bother with ministry period!


The elect will bother.


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 9, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> If I understand you correctly, I would answer this way. If man chooses to be moved by the Holy Ghost, wouldn't it be by his bad choice, seeing that there is none that doeth good?
> 
> At all points.
> 
> ...



I never thought of the total depravity card.... ah I see now... at least I think I do. Total depravity wipes out free will? This is what I get....  Interesting! So hedons are temples with nothing on the stairs up or down. Interesting!

Or am I off base here? The good samaritan was not really a good one, he was a happy accident, depravity on a comedy tour?

 I don't know why and maybe I need to  be exorcised from this image I have of depravity and predestination. It is the image of the great  Lt. Gen. Thomas « Stonewall » Jackson, the flank roller, being bounced along by his horse (he was reputed to be a terrible  rider ) when the boys in gray, his boys, let loose a volley in him. It is an image giving me intense discomfort all around-- but especially that the Gen. was tipped his hat to predestination and this made him fearless in battle... Now this is admirable when facing the enemy-- but gosh what misplaced trust did it provide in his own! I might not be clear, but when ever I see his likeness, I have vertigo and a discomfort like seeing a crippled rider fall off his falling mount, his head and torso wipped back while the horse dives forward by the brisket.... Predestination on Depravity.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 9, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> I never thought of the total depravity card.... ah I see now... at least I think I do. Total depravity wipes out free will? This is what I get....  Interesting! So hedons are temples with nothing on the stairs up or down. Interesting!


Sovereignty. God is and man is not free.


gordon 2 said:


> Or am I off base here? The good samaritan was not really a good one, he was a happy accident, depravity on a comedy tour?


Or was Augustine's interpretation correct in that the Samaritan is Jesus? After all, did not the Jews call him a Samaritan?(John 8:48)


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 9, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Sovereignty. God is and man is not free.
> 
> Or was Augustine's interpretation correct in that the Samaritan is Jesus? After all, did not the Jews call him a Samaritan?(John 8:48)



Yea well I can say God is sovereign and man is not free until I'm blue in the face, but it don't make it real. Believing something is true does not make it necessarily truth. A man who is oppressed is not free, but freed from oppression he is free from oppression. Now because of the fall we are not totally oppressed, as the oppressed man even unaware of the God of the Hebrews and the Christians ( the Good News) can cry for justice more genuine to the justice of the God Yahwey that they are unaware off, than the decendants of Hebrews or Christians today are in some cases willing to admit into their lives. Total depravity is a hard sell where I've put boots on the ground. It might be total in the syllogisms that wall in ideas, but human beings care little for these walls in my experience. When love comes upon the seen, adrenalin kicked in the mix, does more that great ideas.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 9, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> Yea well I can say God is sovereign and man is not free until I'm blue in the face, but it don't make it real. Believing something is true does not make it necessarily truth.


Can you?


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 9, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Can you?



No I can't. I tried it. I get really red in the face. Red faced it is called I think...  LOL So I guess I must take it back....


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 9, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> No I can't. I tried it. I get really red in the face. Red faced it is called I think...  LOL So I guess I must take it back....




Here are a few of the Scriptures that show what I am saying...

"But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive." (Genesis 50:20)

"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." (Proverbs 16:4)

"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple." (Psalm 65:4)

"And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed." (1 Peter 2:8)


----------



## Israel (Dec 9, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> Just in case one ventures to  excessive liberties as to  the meaning of elucidate, currently the "unbabled" ( a new word) definition is as follows:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am always guilty of impatience in part or whole depending upon what view one has. I have no hope of myself. You got me.

And to this I feel "free" to add from another thread:

I think we getting down to it.
The surface I mean...so we can scratch it.
If all we can reach is one another, that'll more than do.


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 9, 2014)

Israel said:


> I am always guilty of impatience in part or whole depending upon what view one has. I have no hope of myself. You got me.



 I've got you in good esteem.  Hopefully you will carry on my friend.


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 9, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Here are a few of the Scriptures that show what I am saying...
> 
> "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive." (Genesis 50:20)
> 
> ...



My goodness why didn't you say this a long time ago... I agree with it and it only needs minimal theology to agree with all of it. I suspect you aim it as a case for God's sovereignty. In this case I agree fully.

 But heavens why make  a hawkish theological movement in a pigeon community out of it? Hope you get my picture here.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 9, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> My goodness why didn't you say this a long time ago... I agree with it and it only needs minimal theology to agree with all of it. I suspect you aim it as a case for God's sovereignty. In this case I agree fully.


I have been saying it for a while now. 


gordon 2 said:


> But heavens why make  a hawkish theological movement in a pigeon community out of it? Hope you get my picture here.


Obviously, I am off from work today... 

But more importantly... "But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased."


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 9, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> I have been saying it for a while now.
> 
> Obviously, I am off from work today...
> 
> But more importantly... "But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased."



Interesting. Interesting.


----------



## Israel (Dec 9, 2014)

In speaking with another brother very recently, I am reminded of the post I made regarding King Agrippa.
We see in the exchange Paul proclaims that Agrippa "believes the prophets" (was he wrong, or how "right" he was...we don't know...we only know what Paul said "I know you do")
And yet, even if this be true, and Paul never hints he doubts Agrippa's belief in the prophets (might we rightly infer from this "a belief" in the scriptures? as it surely suggests...at least in part?)

And yet, we also find Paul unable to, from this "belief in the prophets"...to bring this man to Christ (not conjecturing about what Paul's testimony may have eventually brought to fruit in Agrippa, as we do not know of his ultimate disposition in these things) But seeing, as I believe Paul came to see, and was reminded as often as needful...that it takes nothing less than the sovereign work of God to bring about...even in those who claim to believe the scriptures (and those of whom it might even be said, as Paul boldly declared) the faith of the Son of God.

I am not saying, nor mean to imply, belief in the scriptures is anything but salutary in, and to,  the soul. Paul speaks of those with zeal...but, if you will unenlightened...not able to grasp (at least to me) the magnificence and glory of God's grace beyond apprehension. That zeal "without knowledge"=ignorance.
Time and again Paul was frustrated by those whose belief in the scriptures...seemed to prove the very stumbling block to faith in Christ. Now, here one may say "Perhaps they didn't "truly" believe..." as this is not an indictment believers seem not  unreluctant to levy. 
But, be that as it may...can we at least agree, in even the smallest measure, that to believe "everyone that hangeth upon a tree is accursed" is plainly written? How would this not be a stumbling block? To preach Messiah...nailed to a tree? Of course, the "enlightenment" of it in Christ is the perfect sense of God...but apart from that work of enlightenment...a work of someone else to sovereignly come in and show the truth of it...what would a "plain" reading of scripture yield? A curse is what hangs on a tree, Messiah is blessed, what hangs on a tree cannot be Messiah.

This is where, I believe Jesus was moving when he spoke to those whose thinking was according to finding "life" in the scripture...but failing to come to Him. That "one" thing...upon which all life is, and is revealed...

Jesus, as we know was also very bold...not suffering, I believe (by his very enlightenment) the frustrations of Paul, by knowing "no man can come to me except..."
Sure, believing the scriptures is a "thing", maybe even a thing a man may say "I do", and yet...

Nothing short of God's will to bring a man to Christ, even as the Christ of God, Jesus... knew, is "enough". He knew himself to be a stone of stumbling, a place where all must be undone by another...for him to be seen...that place beyond where a man can "will" himself to believe. 

Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

Sometimes I cannot help but wonder how many times Peter must stand up and declare though everyone else fall away he "will" not.
Peter learned something in that night...about his own will, and the grace of God. I don't think he ever forgot it, nor do I believe he is ashamed to discover, and even be "used" as a worthy example...of what happens when his will is declared...against the proclamation of God.


----------



## M80 (Dec 9, 2014)

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. (CensoredJames‬ 2‬:19‬ KJV)

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. (John‬ 14‬:1KJV)

It's not believing in God that saves, but believing in Jesus, he said " I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes unto the father but by me". He said in read letters believe in him. Sounds like a choose to me!!


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 9, 2014)

Nothing short of God's will to bring a man to Christ, even as the Christ of God, Jesus

 Isreal, your point is this above i believe. You point out, to prove your point, that Paul could not reach Aggripa, because his ministry in this case was minus the sovereign will of God working in Agrappa. Hope I'm correct. 

So if Aggripa had said "Yes" to Paul, the sovereign will of God would of been evident, but his saying "No." it is not? Gee there is something wrong with this picture and I wish I was smart enough to detect what it is.  And I'm too tired for a comparison to something... Hum.

How about if Aggripa did have the sovereign will of God showing him the big picture despite Paul have one of his off days.... and.... he calculates I'm not venturing out of my comfort zone ( for sundry reasons) and old time religion is good enough for me. How about  if Paul had talked to him a 1045 in the morning instead of a quarter to five in the afternoon,  in a different season two yrs apart? It is my experience that there are times in a person's life when they are more able to no longer delay a spiritual choice-- which is their's to make.

It is my experience that for some people who have an image to maintain, their spirituality is calculated and motivated as in voting against as opposed to voting for. Don't know what this means....but their charity like their spirituality is calculated. In this case I guess, nothing less than a sovereign's miracle would suffice. Something like sudden blindness to stop the common scenery long enough to reprogram vision anew.


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 9, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. (CensoredJames‬ 2‬:19‬ KJV)
> 
> Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. (John‬ 14‬:1KJV)
> 
> It's not believing in God that saves, but believing in Jesus, he said " I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes unto the father but by me". He said in read letters believe in him. Sounds like a choose to me!!



Yea, I know... but wait... God has always been a redeemer to those who believe. 


Isaiah 43,
But now, this is what the Lord says—
    he who created you, Jacob,
    he who formed you, Israel:
“Do not fear, for I have redeemed you;
    I have summoned you by name; you are mine.
2 When you pass through the waters,
    I will be with you;
and when you pass through the rivers,
    they will not sweep over you.
When you walk through the fire,
    you will not be burned;
    the flames will not set you ablaze.
3 For I am the Lord your God,
    the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;

There are believers and their are believers. Those who believe that their is one God, do well, but alas, their is more to the relationship  and salvation than  belief in one God as opposed to a couple or more.... But yes it is a choice to believe as Jesus said to.


----------



## mtnwoman (Dec 9, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> If Adam had a choice, Abraham had choice, Jesus had a choice, Judas had a choice, and Saul had a choice, then I have a choice.
> If they didn't then neither do I.



Great point.

Perhaps God did create Adam sinless....God didn't know what would happen? Of course He did.  Adam did have free will and so do we. To what extent I don't know.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 10, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> It's not believing in God that saves, but believing in Jesus, he said " I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes unto the father but by me". He said in read letters believe in him. Sounds like a choose to me!!


I see choice as well. I ascribe it here... "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes unto the father but by me"

For choice to be relevant at all in this matter, it is the choice of Jesus.

If we have freedom of choice, freedom of the will, in any real and meaningful way... relative to God, why would one man choose to ascribe salvation to the Lord, and another man choose to ascribe salvation to himself?

"He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."


----------



## Israel (Dec 10, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> Nothing short of God's will to bring a man to Christ, even as the Christ of God, Jesus
> 
> Isreal, your point is this above i believe. You point out, to prove your point, that Paul could not reach Aggripa, because his ministry in this case was minus the sovereign will of God working in Agrappa. Hope I'm correct.
> 
> ...


I have an image to maintain.

But, if you mean in the case of Agrippa, yes...it could well be that his very reluctance was directly related to some spiritual grasp that he may have not wanted to acknowledge (we call this: suppressing of the truth in unrighteousness) that to surrender to this "call" would indeed mean a "whole new ballgame"...Lord! he might even become like the man standing in front of him! Once of stature and influence, now easily accused by a "worthy colleague" (of Agrippa's) of being mad. How's that for a change


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 10, 2014)

Israel said:


> I have an image to maintain.
> 
> But, if you mean in the case of Agrippa, yes...it could well be that his very reluctance was directly related to some spiritual grasp that he may have not wanted to acknowledge (we call this: suppressing of the truth in unrighteousness) that to surrender to this "call" would indeed mean a "whole new ballgame"...Lord! he might even become like the man standing in front of him! Once of stature and influence, now easily accused by a "worthy colleague" (of Agrippa's) of being mad. How's that for a change



I don't think you have an image to maintain in the milieu of a family setting and knowing you-- I'm betting your public persona is not much different. 

Maybe for Agrippa it was difficult to needle the camel ( himself) in the eye. But that's all supposition... " My kingdom, my sandles, for Christ's?" "Hum... let's see...."


----------



## Israel (Dec 10, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> I don't think you have an image to maintain in the milieu of a family setting and knowing you-- I'm betting your public persona is not much different.
> 
> Maybe for Agrippa it was difficult to needle the camel ( himself) in the eye. But that's all supposition... " My kingdom, my sandles, for Christ's?" "Hum... let's see...."



Grace allows for quite a bit. 
Even Jesus, in grace, said he was withholding certain things in the hearing of the disciples, because they were not ready to hear.
We do not find Jesus saying "in the beginning", so to speak..."you have not chosen me, but I have chosen you..."
For however long the Lord has deemed with each there's a sharing...and a withholding.
When the Lord is silent about something, a disciple learns, he cannot assume or infer the Lord's agreement. Or even his approval. Paul made this clear when he said that although he knew of nothing against himself, this didn't of necessity, make him innocent. This is where the seeing of something by a "one" also, does not of necessity, mean it is always to be shared. This is where we discover the "straining"...or striving of which we are told to avoid...and the fruitlessness of trying to "make another see" what a particular disciple may see in regards to anything. 
The Lord may let us go on thinking many things, even having a view embraced as a foundation of which we may later be disabused.
Here, I am not trying to "make" or prove a point regarding anything in particular...but ask sincerely as I can; 
Who of us has not had the Lord show us something of which we seemed totally convinced...as totally useless now in regards to the thing he is presently showing us...and that "thing" of which we were formerly "allowed" to assume, must then be abandoned?
If no one else has, so be it.
Being convinced, however, that since I cannot bring myself to "see" a thing, or do a thing to change myself or my view, except be me, as far (or as short) as I may see, in Christ; then it is just as foolhardy for me to imagine I can either "prove" a point, or bring anyone else to see...anything.
We are witnesses, if indeed we have seen...anything. The sharing of that we may learn has both a timeliness and instruction when it may be forbidden.
If I appear as one striving with any, indeed, using a will of "my own" to accomplish anything, I am rightly rebuked and reproved.
I don't know that I have, but that does not make me innocent.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 11, 2014)

Israel said:


> Being convinced, however, that since I cannot bring myself to "see" a thing, or do a thing to change myself or my view, except be me, as far (or as short) as I may see, in Christ; then it is just as foolhardy for me to imagine I can either "prove" a point, or bring anyone else to see...anything.


I agree with what you said here, but at the same time, I am also aware that it is not foolhardy to believe that God directs our conversations and/or arguments in accordance with His will.

Or is that what you are saying all along? That the proving... the bringing... is God's?

The only reason I ask is this, I was recently told that "arguing is counter productive to Christianity". What? I can't wrap my mind around that statement. 

It appears to me that the Bible has more answers than some Christians will give it credit for.


----------



## Israel (Dec 12, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> I agree with what you said here, but at the same time, I am also aware that it is not foolhardy to believe that God directs our conversations and/or arguments in accordance with His will.
> 
> Or is that what you are saying all along? That the proving... the bringing... is God's?
> 
> ...


Yes.
That.
And if I may elaborate.
The "how" I argue, is no less important to me now than "what" I argue. I can no longer separate the two.
I may know a thing, have seen a thing, as surely as the Lord already knows that I know, and yet find myself, in certain circumstances forbidden, restricted, and sense I have no business speaking of it.
Having been rightly judged often enough as being the "one" who is just "trying" to impose his experiences/revelations upon others, I have spent enough time before the Lord to see this is true...of me.
Learning of liberty to speak, has also now included learning of the liberty...to not. I cannot begin to describe the greater liberty shown here, especially to a one that has been so motivated by trying to arrange all the chairs and furniture to his own liking, only to find myself in the dark, and someone with both greater strength and honor has decided to move things a bit. Even that particular experience...of "me" being the thing that goes "bump in the night" I cannot force upon others. That may, or may not...be theirs to learn.
The greater understanding here is not for the cause of how things are arranged, but in the knowing the arranger, that so meticulously am I observed, that when I am discovered with hammer and nails to "fix" the table to its spot...I am simply sending an invitation to the arranger to help this poor thing that simply must have things its own way. And then, by this invitation, he comes to help.
Of course, such a man is thoroughly convinced as he again lay bruised face down in the dark there must be a better way.
Such a man may eventually come to learn, laying face down, in the dark, is precisely the safest place for him...and indeed, may be the only help to any other...even if it must be their own stumbling over him...for toes stubbed against flesh are far less grievous than bloodied knees, torn garments and headlong crashes into the china cabinet.


----------

