# the trinity



## polkhunt (Mar 20, 2010)

I wanted to know what some of you think about the trinity as in how most churches define it. The father, son and holy spirit being one is an area I am unsure about I want to hear some thoughts on it.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 20, 2010)

They are "Of" the same.
Jesus prayed to The Father.
After Jesus ascended, the Comforter came.


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## christianhunter (Mar 20, 2010)

polkhunt said:


> I wanted to know what some of you think about the trinity as in how most churches define it. The father, son and holy spirit being one is an area I am unsure about I want to hear some thoughts on it.



The mans finite mind cannot describe or try to explain THE HOLY TRINITY.GOD THE FATHER,GOD THE SON,and GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT.Each ONE Different,yet THEY are ONE and THE SAME.The best I have ever heard it described is 1X1X1=1.


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## Lowjack (Mar 20, 2010)

The Trinity Is a Concept invented by man , so he can try and understand God, there is no God the Father , God the Son ,God the Holy Spirit as such there is only GOD!
There is only one God who is Father and manifested in the Son, The Holy spirit is the Father as God in his essence is a Spirit so there Isn't a Third Person Called the Spirit, but God is The Spirit, who Fathered Yeshua, Who Created the heavens and the earth and who dwelled in the body Of Yeshua.



Isaiah Chapter 43

10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Verses saying there is only one God:

Mk. 12:32  "You are right in saying God is one and there is no other but him." 
Mk. 12:29  "The Lord our God, the Lord is one." 
1 Tim. 2:5  "For there is one God …" 
1 Cor. 8:4  " … and there is no God but one." 
Gal. 3:20  " … but God is one." 
James 2:19  "You believe there is one God. Good! …" 
Ps. 86:10  " … you alone are God." 
Deut. 6:4,5  "The Lord our God, the Lord is one …" 
Isa. 44:8  "Is there another God besides me?" 
Isa. 45:21  "There is no God apart from me … there is none but me." 
Isa. 45:22 "For I am God and there is no other." 
Isa. 46:9  "I am God, and there is no other" 
Isa. 45:5  "I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God." 
Isaiah 45:18  "I am the Lord, and there is no other." 
Mal. 2:10 "Did not one God create us?"


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## Israel (Mar 20, 2010)

this whole multiplicity thing is a fabrication of the carnal mind.


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## Flatbow (Mar 20, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> The mans finite mind cannot describe or try to explain THE HOLY TRINITY.GOD THE FATHER,GOD THE SON,and GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT.Each ONE Different,yet THEY are ONE and THE SAME.The best I have ever heard it described is 1X1X1=1.



I agree 100%.


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## centerpin fan (Mar 21, 2010)

Christians believe in one God revealed in three Persons.

We do not believe in three gods.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 21, 2010)

It works for me. Regardless of the genesis of how the trinity came about and the adopted formulations of the church fathers, as a Christian when Jesus says that "the Father in my heart", or " You have seen me, you have seen the Father." I don't think he was being carnal or fabricating unwholesome spritual concepts. Likewise, when the prophets and the apostles say they are writing in the spirit I don't think they are being carnal.

Again when Jesus sent down the Holy Spirit as an agent of baptism and teaching was he playing loose and vainly with God? I think not!

Again I am surprised that some the foremost bible scolars here say the whole trinity thing is carnal or a fabrication. But then I think, a tree is not a forest, and a bit here and a bit there out of context makes for carnal vision.

One dance, one rose, one kiss might be carnal however. But then perhaps not.

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## Lowjack (Mar 21, 2010)

gordon 2 said:


> It works for me. Regardless of the genesis of how the trinity came about and the adopted formulations of the church fathers, as a Christian when Jesus says that "the Father in my heart", or " You have seen me, you have seen the Father." I don't think he was being carnal or fabricating unwholesome spritual concepts. Likewise, when the prophets and the apostles say they are writing in the spirit I don't think they are being carnal.
> 
> Again when Jesus sent down the Holy Spirit as an agent of baptism and teaching was he playing loose and vainly with God? I think not!
> 
> ...



It is a fabrication, it is not found in the Word anywhere, Just because God is Father,Son and he is A Spirit doesn't mean he is 3 persons or distinct persons.
God said there was "no God before him and there would never be another after him" so where the trinity concept is wrong is by saying there are 3 distinct persons.

There is no distinction between them as Colossians 2;8;9
Clearly says,
8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. 

9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 21, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> It is a fabrication, it is not found in the Word anywhere, Just because God is Father,Son and he is A Spirit doesn't mean he is 3 persons or distinct persons.
> God said there was "no God before him and there would never be another after him" so where the trinity concept is wrong is by saying there are 3 distinct persons.
> 
> There is no distinction between them as Colossians 2;8;9
> ...



Research the language of the people who decided on three persons ( they were not english, scotish, or Irish) and your point is off the mark. Of course the folks who decided on three persons were not saying there were three gods...and you know this.

"Persons" does not mean three individuals...

For example, in some languages  the verb has several persons. ( You know this.) 



If you limit yourself to what scripture says to cook up the truth you are understanding justice for a recipe and misunderstanding people.


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## Inthegarge (Mar 21, 2010)

Passage 1 John 5:7:

   7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Sounds pretty simple and makes perfect sense......RW


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## revrandyf (Mar 21, 2010)

Try this one....three ways of knowing the same God....Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  I am a son of my parents, a father to my children and a husband to my wife.  Speaks of my roles and ways of being known.....this is not the perfect explanation or illustration because it doesn't exist.  Research back to the early Church councils (Nicea, et.al) and you will find the Church concluded it is a mystery which we accept in faith.  But the quote from 1 John 5:7 is very clear imho.


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## formula1 (Mar 21, 2010)

*Re:*

All I can say is I can say is I see God manifested in three ways in the scriptures. That doesn't make Him three gods nor violate in any way 'The Lord our God the Lord is one'.  Consider the following:

Matthew 3
16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; 17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."

The Father, the Son, and the Spirit are all described here.   It's only hard to understand if you want it to be so.


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## Lowjack (Mar 21, 2010)

Inthegarge said:


> Passage 1 John 5:7:
> 
> 7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
> 
> Sounds pretty simple and makes perfect sense......RW



If that verse were in the textus receptus it would make sense, but it is not, research the quote and "Erasmus"

ERASMUS:  HERETIC OR HUMANISTIC HERO

     Today while reading about Erasmus, the Christian Humanist of the early 16th century, I was surprised to discover that the Catholic Church did not like his translations of the New Testament from the original Greek into Latin.  Many denounced him as a heretic, and the Universities of Oxford & Cambridge forbade their students from reading his books after his New Testament was published in 1516.  (Note 1)
        Even more bizarre, Erasmus had dedicated his translation to the new Pope, Leo X, (son of Lorenzo de' Medici). (2)  Erasmus' philosophy of religion was one of reform, seeking unity in the Church, and he was a pacifist when the issue of war came up.  So what beef did the Oxford dons have against this Prince of Humanists?  Why did the Roman Catholic Church officially excommunicate Erasmus eight years after his death in 1536, during the Council of Trent, and place his writings on the Index of Forbidden Books?  (3)
       Part of the answer is that he "corrected" some passages in his edition of the New Testament that were translated inaccurately in Jerome's Latin text.  Since Jerome's New Testament was the authoritative edition for over 1000 years, Erasmus inadvertently upset the status quo within the Church especially of its teachers.  One of the verses, 1. John 5:7, mentions the Trinity.  This verse was "removed" by Erasmus because it was not included in the Greek manuscripts that he reviewed. (4)  In our English King James Version (based on Jerome's Latin, though published over 100 years after Erasmus' translation, the verse reads:  

            For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost:  and these three are one.  

        The verse states that the Triune God, commonly called the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, bear witness to the Messiahship of Yeshua ben Yosef, that is, Jesus.  The verse is in the KJV but not in the New International Version, the latter noting in its footnote that this verse was "not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century" although late manuscripts of the Vulgate (Jerome's translation) included it.   Where and when did this verse get into the text?  
 P. Smith suggests in his book, Erasmus:  A Study of His Life, Ideals, and Place in History that the verse may have been added later to convince doubters of the Trinity.  Specifically, he cites the case of Priscillian, a Spanish Christian who denied this tenet of the Nicean Creed and was therefore executed as the first heretic in Trier in 385.  (5)        As readers of the Book of Revelation will remember, a curse is pronounced on those who add or take away any part from that book.   In retrospect of the history around this verse in 1. John, the error is on the part of the scribe or Church official who added it to the text, not to Erasmus who edited it out because it did not belong there in the first place.  The Church acted out of zeal for orthodox belief; our Catholic Humanist friend was motivated by textual & historical accuracy.  Both acted for what they believed to be best for the community they served:  the scribe to support Constantine's legacy & to teach the Flock of God, and Erasmus to present a better translation for the intellectual community of Europe who read Latin.  
Erasmus had no intention to divide the Church -- he often wrote about his desire for Christian unity, both before and after Luther came on the scene.  Both he and Luther wanted reformation in the Church -- not to leave the Church -- though both sought change through different means.  Both men were committed to the Scriptures; Luther used Erasmus' Latin translation as one of his sources to translate the Bible into German. (6)  For their commitment to God, both men were ex-communicated by the dominant religious institution.  
        The Church was also motivated to prohibit the reading of Erasmus' books because he wrote against Leo's predecessor, Pope Julius II, after he saw the pontiff besiege the city of Bologna in 1506. (7)  (Churchmen fought at the head of armies in those days, both for territories and against heretics.) This text was published in 1513 as "Julius exclusius," (Julius Excluded from Heaven).  Erasmus also wrote with biting sarcasm against all the customs and institutions of his day in "In Praise of Folly," a parody that became popular throughout Europe after it was published in 1511.  (8)
        By asking and answering the question, why did the Roman Catholic Church and the Oxford dons turn against Erasmus, I have SOUGHT TRUTH in this historical situation.  It is not my intention to write against a particular religious denomination, nor a belief, nor am I arguing against the veracity of the Scriptures.  The 16th century was a time of shifting religious and intellectual thoughts; many people acted heroically and others, foolishly, in the all-too-bloody wars of religion of that period.  But now we understand better why Erasmus -- a Catholic Humanist who was interested in peace -- was opposed by both universities and the Church in the latter part of his life.  

NOTES:  (1)  Stanley R. Friesen, Erasmus:  Paradigm of Renaissance Humanism; His Influence on the Arts and Sciences in the Intellectual Revolution (Padova, Italy:  Piccin Nuova Libraria S.p.A., 2001), 57, in English; citing J.G. Ridley, Statesman and Saint:  Cardinal Wolsey, Sir Thomas More, and the Politics of Henry VIII (New York:  Viking Press, 1983), 83.  

                 (2)  Friesen, 48, 55; citing J.A. Froude, Life and Letters of Erasmus:  Lectures at Oxford, 1893/94 (New York:  Scribner's, 1912), 120, 185.  

                 (3)  Friesen, 59; citing William Manchester, A World Lit Only by Fire; The Medieval Mind and the Renaissance; Portrait of an Age (Boston:  Little, Brown, 1992), 186.  

                 (4)  Friesen, 58.  

                 (5)  Ibid.; citing Preserved Smith, Erasmus:  A Study of His Life, Ideals and Place in History (New York:  Harper & Brothers, 1923), also New York:  Ungar Publishing Co., 1962, 165.  

                 (6)  Harold J. Grimm, The Reformation Era, 1500 - 1650 (New York:  Macmillan Co., 1954, 3rd printing, 1956), 81.  

                 (7)  Friesen, 45, 53.  

              (8)  Ibid., 53, 51.


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## centerpin fan (Mar 21, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> If that verse were in the textus receptus it would make sense, but it is not, research the quote and "Erasmus".



The doctrine of the Trinity did not begin with Erasmus.  The church has been teaching it for 2,000 years.


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## creation's_cause (Mar 21, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> The Trinity Is a Concept invented by man , so he can try and understand God, there is no God the Father , God the Son ,God the Holy Spirit as such there is only GOD!
> There is only one God who is Father and manifested in the Son, The Holy spirit is the Father as God in his essence is a Spirit so there Isn't a Third Person Called the Spirit, but God is The Spirit, who Fathered Yeshua, Who Created the heavens and the earth and who dwelled in the body Of Yeshua.
> 
> 
> ...



Seems like you are arguing symantics mostly....and being arbitrary turns some folks off to the faith.


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## BeenHuntn (Mar 21, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> The doctrine of the Trinity did not begin with Erasmus.  The church has been teaching it for 2,000 years.



there you go again with the "church" and what it teaches.  cf, were you there 2000 years ago? 1000 years ago? you are always the expert on what has been taught the last 2000 years. i pray that you know what God teaches and not the "church"...  because there is a huge difference...  the trinity was not "taught" by Christ, the apostles and the Bible is silent about a trinity...  just another one of mans inventions to take folks eyes off of Christ. and there are plenty of churches that do not waste time discussing a trinity.


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## Dominic (Mar 21, 2010)

Above all guard for me this great deposit of faith for which I live and fight, which I want to take with me as a companion, and which makes me bear all evils and despise all pleasures: I mean the profession of faith in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. I entrust it to you today. By it I am soon going to plunge you into water and raise you up from it. I give it to you as the companion and patron of your whole life. I give you but one divinity and power, existing one in three, and containing the three in a distinct way. Divinity without disparity of substance or nature, without superior degree that raises up or inferior degree that casts down. . . the infinite co-naturality of three infinites. Each person considered in himself is entirely God. . . the three considered together. . . I have not even begun to think of unity when the Trinity bathes me in its splendour. I have not even begun to think of the Trinity when unity grasps me. - St. Gregory of Nazianzus 329-374


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## centerpin fan (Mar 21, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> there you go again with the "church" and what it teaches.  cf, were you there 2000 years ago? 1000 years ago? you are always the expert on what has been taught the last 2000 years. i pray that you know what God teaches and not the "church"...  because there is a huge difference...  the trinity was not "taught" by Christ, the apostles and the Bible is silent about a trinity...  just another one of mans inventions to take folks eyes off of Christ. and there are plenty of churches that do not waste time discussing a trinity.



I almost don't know where to start with this, BH.  Here goes nothing.

The church is God's plan.  Jesus said in Matt. 16:18 that "I will build my church ..."  He did not say, "I will write my book."  Before He ascended into heaven, he did not pass out KJV Bibles to the disciples.  His plan was to train men who would train others who would train others.  I know you hate that plan, but it _*is*_ His plan.  

The Bible is God's word.  It is not God.  That is an important distinction that I believe escapes you.  You come dangerously close to Bibliolatry, IMO.




BeenHuntn said:


> the Bible is silent about a trinity...



You're just wrong about that.  You reading your beliefs into the scripture, and not vice versa.




BeenHuntn said:


> there are plenty of churches that do not waste time discussing a trinity.



So?  That's their problem.

BH, you never answered my question in the other thread.  What would you have done if you had lived in the 2nd or 3rd centuries?  You would have no KJV to read (and no NIV, NAS, NKJ, etc., either.)  At best, your church might have a copy of the Septuagint and maybe one gospel.


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## Lowjack (Mar 21, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> I almost don't know where to start with this, BH.  Here goes nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> The Bible is God's word.  It is not God.  That is an important distinction that I believe escapes you.  You come dangerously close to Bibliolatry, IMO.



John 1;1 , In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
You figure it out !


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## centerpin fan (Mar 21, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> John 1;1 , In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
> You figure it out !



Jesus is the Word.  The Bible is God's written word.

This passage mentions two Persons of the Holy Trinity.


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## post450 (Mar 21, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> there you go again with the "church" and what it teaches.  cf, were you there 2000 years ago? 1000 years ago? you are always the expert on what has been taught the last 2000 years. i pray that you know what God teaches and not the "church"...  because there is a huge difference...  the trinity was not "taught" by Christ, the apostles and the Bible is silent about a trinity...  just another one of mans inventions to take folks eyes off of Christ. and there are plenty of churches that do not waste time discussing a trinity.



Kind of ironic that you spout off this condescending rhetoric about the non-existence of the Triune Godhead when you just said "God teaches". According to John 14:26, the Holy Spirit teaches, so if They are not three personalities in One, that would mean you are wrong or at least not taught by God. 

Matthew 28:19 is the Commission of Christ. Wonder why he bother to name all three? I take it there must be some serious importance or else maybe one of Lowjack's early Catholic heretics or heroes added that too. The compilation of the KJV Bible is either the Infallible Inspired Word of God or a fairy tale. When we pick and choose what we like or think should or should not be in there, then we portray it as the latter. I take the last verses of Revelation quite literally.

There are also plenty of "churches" that do not waste time discussing the Rapture, spiritual gifts, or even sin. A flavor for every belief or lack thereof. What's your point?


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## Lowjack (Mar 21, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> Jesus is the Word.  The Bible is God's written word.
> 
> This passage mentions two Persons of the Holy Trinity.



You missed the point, The Word is God, you cannot separate God from his word , they are one and the same, we humans if we were all faithful to our word we also would be our word as a person, in the old days deals were made by a word, the word is as good as the person speaking it.
So God's Spoken Word is as good as his written Word and that word took Human shape and became a man, who lived among us.


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## BeenHuntn (Mar 21, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> I almost don't know where to start with this, BH.  Here goes nothing.
> 
> The church is God's plan.  Jesus said in Matt. 16:18 that "I will build my church ..."  He did not say, "I will write my book."  Before He ascended into heaven, he did not pass out KJV Bibles to the disciples.  His plan was to train men who would train others who would train others.  I know you hate that plan, but it _*is*_ His plan.
> 
> ...



its a stupid question. i didnt live in the 2nd century but if i did... i would probably find myself running for my life from the religious maniacs (the folks you worship) that ran around killing Bible believers for reading Scripture... and please dont tell me there was no Scripture. Scripture was first mentioned in Daniel in 600BC. Moses wrote the 10 commandments thousands of years before Christ. and the bereans read Scripture daily (Acts) and were called "noble"... men have lied to you to make you think there was no Scripture back then and that we had to rely on "the church" for our truth... its called deception.


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## polkhunt (Mar 21, 2010)

Well, I guess many of you have a different take on this but it is something I will never really understand. I grew up in a church that believes that father,son and holy spirit are one in the same but I guess I have had my doubts because of some scriptures so I will throw them out there and see what you guys think. 
Hebrews 5:8-9 

If Jesus and God were one in the same why would he need to learn obedience and we no Jesus was sinless but not perfect if Jesus and God were one in the same why would he need to be perfected (I know perfection in the Bible means maturity  or completeness but the point is the same)

Why was Jesus in such anguish before his death if he and God are the same he had nothing to anguish over.

I do believe in a Father in a Son and in a Holy Spirit I am just not sure that I believe they are one in the same. I know in the big picture it probably does not matter but it is something I will always wonder about.


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## BeenHuntn (Mar 21, 2010)

post450 said:


> Kind of ironic that you spout off this condescending rhetoric about the non-existence of the Triune Godhead when you just said "God teaches". According to John 14:26, the Holy Spirit teaches, so if They are not three personalities in One, that would mean you are wrong or at least not taught by God.
> 
> Matthew 28:19 is the Commission of Christ. Wonder why he bother to name all three? I take it there must be some serious importance or else maybe one of Lowjack's early Catholic heretics or heroes added that too. The compilation of the KJV Bible is either the Infallible Inspired Word of God or a fairy tale. When we pick and choose what we like or think should or should not be in there, then we portray it as the latter. I take the last verses of Revelation quite literally.
> 
> There are also plenty of "churches" that do not waste time discussing the Rapture, spiritual gifts, or even sin. A flavor for every belief or lack thereof. What's your point?



i did not say that the Godhead is not taught. you added that. if you're gonna quote me... quote correctly. the Godhead is clearly taught. the trinity is not taught at all. yes God is God, Jesus is God and the Spirit is God... no trinity is needed. only the Word.  my point is that this trinity was concocted by men a long time ago because they would not read the Word but invent their own teachings... is a hoax. you can believe men. i'll believe God.


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## formula1 (Mar 21, 2010)

*re:*

Matthew 28
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."


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## centerpin fan (Mar 21, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> His plan? the church is God's plan?



Yes, it is.  Sorry to disappoint you.




BeenHuntn said:


> its a darn shame that anyone thinks their church membership will save them. warming a pew will save nobody. its a shame that churches teach that going to their church is a ticket to heaven. cf, the Bible IS God's Word. you can bash His Holy Book all you want and be deceived that church membership will save you.



1)  I don't believe church membership saves anyone, and I didn't say that it did.

2)  I didn't bash the Bible.




BeenHuntn said:


> its a stupid question. i didnt live in the 2nd century but if i did... i would probably find myself running for my life from the religious maniacs (the folks you worship) that ran around killing Bible believers for reading Scripture...



I worship the Triune God:  Father, Son and Holy Spirit.





BeenHuntn said:


> ... and please dont tell me there was no Scripture. Scripture was first mentioned in Daniel in 600BC. Moses wrote the 10 commandments thousands of years before Christ. and the bereans read Scripture daily (Acts) and were called "noble"...



Again, that's not what I said.  You're just making stuff up.  Sure the Bereans were reading scripture.  It was called the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Old Testament.  The NT hadn't been written yet.


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## centerpin fan (Mar 21, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> the Godhead is clearly taught. the trinity is not taught at all.



In your opinion, what is the difference?


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## BeenHuntn (Mar 21, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> Yes, it is.  Sorry to disappoint you.
> 
> Bible verse please?
> 
> ...



we're gonna be judged by the Word... not the church. plus you have got 1000's of churches claiming to be be the true church... which one is right?? none of them.  God's Church consists of His children whether dead of alive. when a church claims to be the "true church"... they are showing their true colors and that they are liars.

God said we must be born again and obey His commands...  there is ONE verse in the Bible that is about "going to church"...

men have changed the Word of God into traditions and churchianity...


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## post450 (Mar 21, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> i did not say that the Godhead is not taught. you added that. if you're gonna quote me... quote correctly. the Godhead is clearly taught. the trinity is not taught at all. yes God is God, Jesus is God and the Spirit is God... no trinity is needed. only the Word.  my point is that this trinity was concocted by men a long time ago because they would not read the Word but invent their own teachings... is a hoax. you can believe men. i'll believe God.



Ok here is your _exact_ quote:



BeenHuntn said:


> ...  the trinity was not "taught" by Christ, the apostles and the Bible is silent about a trinity...  just another one of mans inventions to take folks eyes off of Christ. and there are plenty of churches that do not waste time discussing a trinity.



The KJV Bible does not contain the word Trinity because the original manuscripts were most likely scribed in Greek, not Latin. I am certainly not English major, but the word Triune is an adjective and you apparently have no problem with that word where Trinity is the noun form of the exact same word coming from the exact same Latin base (tri=three / unus=one). Trinity or Triune Godhead is just a shorter way of saying or describing The Father, the Son, and The Holy Ghost, different words, exact same meaning. Look it up. Your time would be better spent learning rather than attacking CF 

And now to your church comments. Whether you like it or not, Christ clearly instituted, orchestrated, and ordained the church for His purpose and we are told to assemble ourselves together with other believers whether its in a home, a building, a storefront or a chicken house. You simply can't escape that fact and no scripture relieves you from that duty no matter how you twist it. I won't even get into the leadership qualifications, spiritual gifts, and the intended functions. You can not fulfill your calling, whatever that may be and you can not edify the body of Christ without some type of interaction and assembly with other believers. Listening to preachers taped sermons and watching them on TV may get you the preached Word, but certainly can never take the place of an assembly or gathering, if it had, Paul could have just written letters and never went anywhere. That sure would have been much safer. Of course going to church doesn't save you, you go to church because you are saved. Reading and quoting the Bible doesn't save you either or we would not have any atheists on this forum.

You can't love Christ and hate His church and since you do not have the divine ability to see any man's heart, your judgement on the church is hypocritical. I heard a preacher say once that if you find a perfect church, join it and it won't be perfect anymore.

Jesus also said where two or three were gathered together in His name, well you know the rest.


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## BeenHuntn (Mar 21, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> In your opinion, what is the difference?



God created one. men invented the other.  same with a rapture. God creates one and men go and screw it up by not following the Bible...  for ex: the left behind series...  deceives millions and leads people astray...


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## christianhunter (Mar 21, 2010)

No room for the atheists on this one!
May THE LORD have Mercy,this my Brothers is sin,at its most deadly deception.

Debate wood be a very loose word for this one!

Tread lightly wood be my advice to a few of you.


----------



## BeenHuntn (Mar 21, 2010)

post450 said:


> Ok here is your _exact_ quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i was not attacking cf. i like cf a lot. i just hate to see him follow a church instead of the Word of God. if we will follow the Word we will be fine... if we follow men... were taking a big risk. sense you cant see that... go back and read in the NT about false prophets. they lead people to helll...

and i love church. Gods church. the one that Jesus started. i am loyal to that church... but other churches., the one that men have created and run with their own teachings and doctrines and traditions... they are evil. they have committed spiritual fornication on the Lord and will pay dearly. these churches abound today... but not for much longer... the Lord is getting tired of these worthless groups of men...


----------



## Dominic (Mar 21, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> No room for the atheists on this one!


 
There's always room for atheists

They're like Jello, squishy, wiggly, sometimes they have fruit inside, and sometimes carrots.

mmm...Jello







My favorite is ambrosia


----------



## Ronnie T (Mar 21, 2010)

From what I know of all the brothers and sisters on this forum, I believe we all agree and understand how God, Jesus Christ, and Holy Spirit are connected in a Divine way.

But when we refer to God and His Son being the same, we confuse the issue with many many people.  It is not a simple understanding that can be simply stated.
Polkhunt's comments below are valid.  "Trinity" is a homemade word.  Many Christians choose not to use it.

Be careful how you explain this to people.  
"If God and Jesus are one, why did Jesus pray to Himself."




polkhunt said:


> Well, I guess many of you have a different take on this but it is something I will never really understand. I grew up in a church that believes that father,son and holy spirit are one in the same but I guess I have had my doubts because of some scriptures so I will throw them out there and see what you guys think.
> Hebrews 5:8-9
> 
> If Jesus and God were one in the same why would he need to learn obedience and we no Jesus was sinless but not perfect if Jesus and God were one in the same why would he need to be perfected (I know perfection in the Bible means maturity  or completeness but the point is the same)
> ...



God and Jesus are one, but, they aren't the same.
They both exist at the same time.


----------



## Inthegarge (Mar 21, 2010)

Yup, a debate implies that both sides present facts and then BOTH sides consider the facts and give their argument against them. I stand by my post ONLY because I present scripture to support the position. My prayer is that we can compare scripture with scripture and not personal opinion. If you have a scriptural answer to any of my posts PLEASE present them. RW


----------



## post450 (Mar 21, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> No room for the atheists on this one!
> May THE LORD have Mercy,this my Brothers is sin,at its most deadly deception.
> 
> Debate wood be a very loose word for this one!
> ...



I thought it was mild compared to the masonic thread, lol.

Seriously, I like truly like BH and enjoy his debates. I have a friend with almost identical beliefs to his. If I didn't know better I would swear he uses BH as an alter ego.



BeenHuntin, I strongly disagree with some of your interpretations and stance, but if I have offended you I do apologize.   Feel free to pm me if I have.


Last post one this one. Good night!


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## Inthegarge (Mar 21, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> i was not attacking cf. i like cf a lot. i just hate to see him follow a church instead of the Word of God. if we will follow the Word we will be fine... if we follow men... were taking a big risk. sense you cant see that... go back and read in the NT about false prophets. they lead people to helll...
> 
> and i love church. Gods church. the one that Jesus started. i am loyal to that church... but other churches., the one that men have created and run with their own teachings and doctrines and traditions... they are evil. they have committed spiritual fornication on the Lord and will pay dearly. these churches abound today... but not for much longer... the Lord is getting tired of these worthless groups of men...



My prayer for you brother is that you will be slow to anger as encouraged in scripture. It is apparent from your posts that you are easily angered and respond without thinking things through completely first. We can not condem all "other" churches as 1) it is God's place to judge 2) we don't know if what we have been told of them is true (gossip) and 3) God's calling for each Christian is different. I personally feel the biggest threat is claiming to adhere to a 1611 KJV that you cannot easily obtain and if you did you would not be able to read it......JMHCO  RW


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## christianhunter (Mar 21, 2010)

You know I really would not like to be a new Believer coming onto this forum.Think of all of the confusion they would be subjected to.There is a lot of Scripture to prove the Trinity,and Trinity is NOT in the Bible as a word,but it is in its explanation of GOD.Spouting off thoughts on The Church,and The Bible in a demeaning way,well that is dangerous living for a Christian,IMHO.GOD THE FATHER,GOD THE SON,and GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT,Three distinct personalities,ONE GOD.This is taught in Scripture,and there is only ONE GOD.Why The Stumbling Block?


----------



## centerpin fan (Mar 21, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> Bible verse please?



As I already said, Matt. 16:18.  See also 2 Timothy 2:2




BeenHuntn said:


> then why are you always praising the church instead of the Word of God? why not praise God and His Word instead of men?



If you demeaned the Bible like you constantly demean God's church, I would defend it as well.  You focus your contempt on the church, so I defend it.  As post450 said above:

_"... Whether you like it or not, Christ clearly instituted, orchestrated, and ordained the church for His purpose ..."_

BH, you love the Bible but where did it come from?  It didn't just drop out of heaven with "KJV" printed on it.  Godly men of the church, guided by the Holy Spirit, wrote the NT.  Other godly men of the church copied the scriptures, preserved them and defended them against scoffers and heretics.




BeenHuntn said:


> you dont praise Gods Word either?



I love the Bible and am thankful I am able to read it!  What else do you want me to say?




BeenHuntn said:


> plus you have got 1000's of churches claiming to be be the true church...



And why is that?  Because every Tom, Dick, Harry and BeenHuntn picks up his Bible, reads a passage and says, "Everybody's doing this wrong.  I'd better start my own church right away!"


----------



## Dominic (Mar 21, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> And why is that? Because every Tom, Dick, Harry and BeenHuntn picks up his Bible,


 
A correction it's Tom, Dick, and *Bruce* ( he moved got a new IP address but it's Bruce)




centerpin fan said:


> reads a passage and says, "Everybody's doing this wrong. I'd better start my own church right away!"


 
B-I-N-G-O

B-I-N-G-O

B-I-N-G-O

and Bruce was his name'o


----------



## BeenHuntn (Mar 21, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> As I already said, Matt. 16:18.  See also 2 Timothy 2:2
> 
> that says nothing about a plan.
> 
> ...



we were commanded to start churches. not because tom and dick were doing it wrong but because we are to get people saved using what? the Bible. not dead religion. then nourish the flock on the truth of what? the Bible again....  that Word of God sure is amazing...  you dont feed the church, the church. you feed them the Word...

we were not commanded to start one apostate church and then force everyone to be in it or we kill them...  but thats what you think. but you say killing folks is evil, right? well why do you stand behind the church that went out and murdered innocent folks for not joining their church??  when you support these men you become partakers of their evil deeds...

2 John 1:11
For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

all of those church fathers you are always quoting have blood on their hands. maybe not all of them but many do... when you follow their teaching you become a partaker of their teaching and murders... that is scary to me...


----------



## Dominic (Mar 22, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> we were commanded to start churches. not because tom and dick were doing it wrong but because we are to get people saved using what? the Bible. not dead religion.


 
Which Bible did St. Paul carry? 

Which Bible did St. Peter carry?

KJV

AV1611

DR1609

Did St. Peter preach from the Gospels before they were written? Did St. Paul?

Did St. Paul make extra copies of his letters for St. Peter to read and preach on?


----------



## BeenHuntn (Mar 22, 2010)

the Word of God has always existed and will be here after heaven and earth are gone. we can make the case for your "church" that it wasnt here, like you do to the Bible. which catholic, orthodox or lutheran, etc, church did Paul preach for? or Peter? did any of them mention your church, ever? which church did they represent then? did any of the OT prophets preach your church system or church attendance? nah. it wasnt there... nowhere to be found. did adam and eve go to your church? nah. it was nowhere to be found... the Word of God has ALWAYS been with us and always will long after your church is gone. the men that have elevated your church above the Word of God and deceived people into thinking that church attendance and tradition are more important than obedience to the Word of God are paying dearly, right this second...  all of them wish they could come back and preach the Word of God instead of churchianity but its too late... God is looking for people to worship Him, not a church. we worship Him thru obedience to the Word of God which is found in the Bible.  have fun with your churchianity... i hope that works out for you.


----------



## Dominic (Mar 22, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> the Word of God has always existed and will be here after heaven and earth are gone. we can make the case for your "church" that it wasnt here, like you do to the Bible. which catholic, orthodox or lutheran, etc, church did Paul preach for? or Peter? did any of them mention your church, ever? which church did they represent then? did any of the OT prophets preach your church system or church attendance? nah. it wasnt there... nowhere to be found. did adam and eve go to your church? nah. it was nowhere to be found... the Word of God has ALWAYS been with us and always will long after your church is gone. the men that have elevated your church above the Word of God and deceived people into thinking that church attendance and tradition are more important than obedience to the Word of God are paying dearly, right this second... all of them wish they could come back and preach the Word of God instead of churchianity but its too late... God is looking for people to worship Him, not a church. we worship Him thru obedience to the Word of God which is found in the Bible. have fun with your churchianity... i hope that works out for you.


 
The Word equals Christ it is simple to understand even for those with poor reading comprehension. 

Yes St. Paul and St. Peter both speak of the Church, the same one I am a member of, they both speak of traditions, they both speak of scripture, they both speak of a teaching authority, and they also both warn of those who abuse and misuse these.

So instead of answering a question with “oh yeah, well, I can say the same about you” how about trying to answer the questions I put to you.

Which Bible did St. Paul carry? 

Which Bible did St. Peter carry?

KJV

AV1611

DR1609

Did St. Peter preach from the Gospels before they were written? Did St. Paul?

Did St. Paul make extra copies of his letters for St. Peter to read and preach on?


----------



## Dominic (Mar 22, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> long after your church is gone


 

So the whole ""*the gates of he l l shall not prevail* against it" " thing meaningless?


----------



## rjcruiser (Mar 22, 2010)

I'll put one reply......thought LJ would've posted this seeing as his supposed Hebrew and Jewish mastery.


The Shema...


Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.  Duet 6:4.


----------



## gtparts (Mar 22, 2010)

My head is spinning.

Until we have some ground rules, none of this makes for good debate ...or discussion.

How about everyone agreeing on some conventions to facilitate this thread?


1) church = the local body, as represented by a denominational or non-denominational group that meets communally

2) Church = the RCC ( to accommodate Catholic "threaders")

3) CHURCH = the body of all believers who have come into a personal relationship with Christ  unto salvation


And remember, the distinction between 2) & 3) is for discussion purposes of this thread. If you choose to debate that distinction, start another thread *at your own risk*. It's been done and overdone! I will not participate. My Catholic brothers in Christ are as intransigent on the subject as I am. "Going there" is fruitless. To deny their beliefs is to deny one of their "foundational stones" of faith. To accept those "foundational stones" would be inconsistent with what I read in the Bible. We will both probably have to deal with our being incorrect on some points, but I don't believe we will find resolution to our differences on this forum.

The other sticking point is the use of the term _word_ or _Word_.

How about this.

1) word = something spoken but not written

2) Word = written Holy Scripture... the Bible

3) WORD = the incarnate Word, God in flesh, Jesus

Maybe we can better grasp what we read of others by using these guidelines.

I really hate being confused by semantic (not s_y_mantic) misunderstandings.


----------



## Inthegarge (Mar 22, 2010)

gtparts said:


> My head is spinning.
> 
> Until we have some ground rules, none of this makes for good debate ...or discussion.
> 
> ...



Excellent post...........................RW


----------



## BeenHuntn (Mar 22, 2010)

Dominic said:


> A correction it's Tom, Dick, and *Bruce* ( he moved got a new IP address but it's Bruce)



i will cast the pearls of a Holy perfect God to the following.... never again.


----------



## christianhunter (Mar 22, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> i will cast the pearls of a Holy perfect God to the following.... never again.



BH,no offense,but are you casting your pearls,or THE LORDS?

Think about it a moment,reread some of your posts and reflect on how they can be taken.Just a thought.


----------



## rjcruiser (Mar 22, 2010)

Dominic said:


> A correction it's Tom, Dick, and *Bruce* ( he moved got a new IP address but it's Bruce)
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Dom...I will say, if it is Bruce...he wouldn't be the first one to do this.

And no, I'm not calling out the mods here...but it is kinda funny how this happens in the other forums and it appears that the Mods turn a blind eye to it.  I can't blame them though...as long as the person is following the rules again, it would be difficult to prove who is who.

Even without being banned, I know several who change screen names to "start over" and try and leave past conversations and impressions behind.


----------



## Dominic (Mar 22, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> Dom...I will say, if it is Bruce...he wouldn't be the first one to do this.
> 
> And no, I'm not calling out the mods here...but it is kinda funny how this happens in the other forums and it appears that the Mods turn a blind eye to it. I can't blame them though...as long as the person is following the rules again, it would be difficult to prove who is who.
> 
> Even without being banned, I know several who change screen names to "start over" and try and leave past conversations and impressions behind.


 

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Qw9oX-kZ_9k&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Qw9oX-kZ_9k&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>


----------



## centerpin fan (Mar 22, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> i told you that i love Gods church. the one He created.



If you love God's church, you will find a local body of believers and worship with them.  




BeenHuntn said:


> the Bible came from God. it came from Jesus and the Spirit. it has always existed. see your church leaders have lied to you by trying to take credit for giving us the Bible. God gave us the Bible. He gets the glory, not men. but it most certainly did not come from the group of men that you think it did... they chained the Bible and killed someone for reading it... hmmm, i wonder "spirit" that came from.



I think that Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter and Paul wrote the NT (as they were guided by the Holy Spirit.)  Who do you think wrote it?  




BeenHuntn said:


> we were not commanded to start one apostate church and then force everyone to be in it or we kill them...  but thats what you think. but you say killing folks is evil, right? well why do you stand behind the church that went out and murdered innocent folks for not joining their church??  when you support these men you become partakers of their evil deeds...



BH, you understand church history about as well as Tiger Woods understands fidelity.




BeenHuntn said:


> all of those church fathers you are always quoting have blood on their hands. maybe not all of them but many do... when you follow their teaching you become a partaker of their teaching and murders... that is scary to me...



As I said in another thread, nobody reads the Bible in a vacuum.  Everybody is influenced by the opinions of others, and you follow the teachings of men as much as anybody.  You just don’t realize it.


----------



## Jeffriesw (Mar 22, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> Dom...I will say, if it is Bruce...he wouldn't be the first one to do this.
> 
> And no, I'm not calling out the mods here...but it is kinda funny how this happens in the other forums and it appears that the Mods turn a blind eye to it.  I can't blame them though...as long as the person is following the rules again, it would be difficult to prove who is who.
> 
> Even without being banned, I know several who change screen names to "start over" and try and leave past conversations and impressions behind.






Reincarnation, it does a body good !


----------



## Dominic (Mar 22, 2010)

Swamp Runner said:


> Reincarnation, it does a body good !


 
If it can happen to Chris Farley


----------



## thedeacon (Mar 22, 2010)

For GOD so loved the world that he gave his only BEGOTTEN SON that whosoever believeth in HIM should not parish but have everlasting life.

If you have seen ME, you have seen the FATHER.

You can't explain away, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit no matter how had you try. Its there, its just there.

but I have said it once and I will say it one more time for those who try to take on some of the zealots towards blindness.

You can't outpuke a buzzard


----------



## PWalls (Mar 22, 2010)

I believe in the Trinity as one God with three aspects. Maybe even call it responsibilities/divisions. Not individuals/persons.

The Creator/Father God chose to send a part of Himself to Earth in the "form" of Jesus. Jesus is therefore God and God is therefore Jesus. Same concept with the Holy Spirit. Those aspects are referred to as persons for our limited minds to try and grasp the importance or meaning. When the disciples looked at Jesus they were also seeing God the Father and God the Spirit but they couldn't grasp that so Jesus referred to Himself like He did.

I always heard the analogy of the Egg. Shell, White and Yolk. 3 aspects/divisions of one entity.

Anyway, that is my take.


----------



## OlAlabama (Mar 22, 2010)

polkhunt said:


> I wanted to know what some of you think about the trinity as in how most churches define it. The father, son and holy spirit being one is an area I am unsure about I want to hear some thoughts on it.



NiCe Deer Polkhunt!  
I just can't find the word TRINITY or a stateMENT of TRinitArian belief in the BIBLE itself.  BUT I can find pLEANTy of SCriPTure to the effeCT that Jesus is God's SON and SEPERATE from his father, like John 17.1-3 "Father,... this is eternal life, that they know thee _the *ONLY* true God_, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent".  As far as Holy Spirit goes it makes more SENSE to look at it as GOD's active force.  At LEast it make's LOT a Sense IN My HOUSE.


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## BeenHuntn (Mar 22, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> BH, you understand church history about as well as Tiger Woods understands fidelity.



this coming from a person who thinks the catholic church was the only church for 1500 years after Christ...   hmmm.

i tell you what cf. you read david cloud's "history of the church" and "foxe's book of martyrs"...  then lets discuss church history...


----------



## centerpin fan (Mar 22, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> this coming from a person who thinks the catholic church was the only church for 1500 years after Christ...   hmmm.



I don't believe that.  You're forgetting the Orthodox and the Copts.  Besides, I'm not Catholic. 




BeenHuntn said:


> i tell you what cf. you read david cloud's "history of the church" and "foxe's book of martyrs"...  then lets discuss church history...



I am more familiar with David Cloud than you might imagine, but I have not read his history of the church.  I suspect it would be pretty one-sided.

Foxe writes from a Protestant perspective.  When given the opportunity, Protestants have mistreated Catholics, too.  For a look at how Protestants treat one another, you might enjoy _God's Secretaries:  The Making of the King James Bible_ by Adam Nicolson.


----------



## BeenHuntn (Mar 22, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> I don't believe that.  You're forgetting the Orthodox and the Copts.  Besides, I'm not Catholic.
> 
> I am more familiar with David Cloud than you might imagine, but I have not read his history of the church.  I suspect it would be pretty one-sided.
> 
> Foxe writes from a Protestant perspective.  When given the opportunity, Protestants have mistreated Catholics, too.  For a look at how Protestants treat one another, you might enjoy _God's Secretaries:  The Making of the King James Bible_ by Adam Nicolson.




i didnt say you were catholic. but you always refer back to the early church fathers. usually, the only folks who do that are catholic...

if clouds and foxes books are true... there were plenty of other churches out there besides the catholic church. i have also stated many times that there has been persecution all over the religious world... hence why i hate religion.   Jesus is coming back for a church (His body) without spot or blemish... thats why i cant give an ounce of 
credibility to any and all churches that went around murdering folks... whether calvin, prot or catholic or whoever...


----------



## centerpin fan (Mar 22, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> if clouds and foxes books are true... there were plenty of other churches out there besides the catholic church.



Before the 16th century?  No.  After Martin Luther?  Yes.

I wouldn't put much stock in Cloud's view of church history.  As I said, Foxe writes mostly about Catholic persecutions of Protestants.  And yes, once Luther opened the flood gates, there were many Protestant churches.


----------



## Harbuck (Mar 22, 2010)

polkhunt said:


> Well, I guess many of you have a different take on this but it is something I will never really understand. I grew up in a church that believes that father,son and holy spirit are one in the same but I guess I have had my doubts because of some scriptures so I will throw them out there and see what you guys think.
> Hebrews 5:8-9
> 
> If Jesus and God were one in the same why would he need to learn obedience and we no Jesus was sinless but not perfect if Jesus and God were one in the same why would he need to be perfected (I know perfection in the Bible means maturity  or completeness but the point is the same)
> ...



Well think about this then. Jesus commanded his profets to baptise in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit. but after christ went to the cross none did. So how did they baptise???? iN THE NAME OF jESUS CHRIST OR .....THE LORD CHRIST JESUS. So my question to you all is did the decipls directly disobey Jesus's commandment or did they understand that jesus is the Father and the son and the holy spirit. after all Jesus said "when you've seen me you have seen the father.


----------



## Harbuck (Mar 22, 2010)

*The truth*



Lowjack said:


> The Trinity Is a Concept invented by man , so he can try and understand God, there is no God the Father , God the Son ,God the Holy Spirit as such there is only GOD!
> There is only one God who is Father and manifested in the Son, The Holy spirit is the Father as God in his essence is a Spirit so there Isn't a Third Person Called the Spirit, but God is The Spirit, who Fathered Yeshua, Who Created the heavens and the earth and who dwelled in the body Of Yeshua.
> 
> 
> ...



It's a shame that so many of you are so stuck to your TRADITONS to accept this truth. LJ has put it here very plan and simple for you all and you still hold to your false gods. The Trinity is not biblical. It is a lie and has deceived so many good people.


----------



## Harbuck (Mar 22, 2010)

*heaven bound*

and know that you are not "SAVED" till the end. and yes you must be filled with the holy spirit or you will not be saved. the bible says that unless you are born of the water and of the spirit you can not enter into heaven.


----------



## centerpin fan (Mar 22, 2010)

Harbuck said:


> The Trinity is not biblical. It is a lie and has deceived so many good people.... and know that you are not "SAVED" till the end. and yes you must be filled with the holy spirit or you will not be saved. the bible says that unless you are born of the water and of the spirit you can not enter into heaven.



Sounds like you're a member of the United Pentecostal Church, the only Protestant denomination I'm aware of that denies the Trinity.


----------



## Dominic (Mar 22, 2010)

Harbuck said:


> Well think about this then. Jesus commanded his profets to baptise in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit. but after christ went to the cross none did. So how did they baptise???? iN THE NAME OF jESUS CHRIST OR .....THE LORD CHRIST JESUS. So my question to you all is did the decipls directly disobey Jesus's commandment or did they understand that jesus is the Father and the son and the holy spirit. after all Jesus said "when you've seen me you have seen the father.


 
Not to be fussy about the order of things, but Christ gave the commission to baptize in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit after He was crucified not before.


----------



## Dominic (Mar 22, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> i didnt say you were catholic. but you always refer back to the early church fathers. usually, the only folks who do that are catholic...


 

How dare you refer back to the ECFs 

Maybe that is because the Early Church Fathers were Catholic


----------



## Ronnie T (Mar 22, 2010)

Here's a verse worth discussing..

John 5:19Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. 

20"For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel. 

21"For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. 

22"For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 


*What does those say of Jesus' relation with the Father.


----------



## Harbuck (Mar 22, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> Sounds like you're a member of the United Pentecostal Church, the only Protestant denomination I'm aware of that denies the Trinity.



No sir I'm non denominational.


----------



## Harbuck (Mar 22, 2010)

Dominic said:


> Not to be fussy about the order of things, but Christ gave the commission to baptize in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit after He was crucified not before.



Not to be fussy or anything, but the point still holds true that they baptised in the name of jesus.


----------



## Dominic (Mar 22, 2010)

Harbuck said:


> Not to be fussy or anything, but the point still holds true that they baptised in the name of jesus.


 

You mean in Acts? St. Peter was not actually baptizing there, nor was he baptizing anyone later in Acts.

In fact there are no recordings of the formula of baptism except for the one Christ gave us at the end of Matthew, so why not stick to that one?


----------



## Harbuck (Mar 22, 2010)

Dominic said:


> You mean in Acts? St. Peter was not actually baptizing there, nor was he baptizing anyone later in Acts.
> 
> In fact there are no recordings of the formula of baptism except for the one Christ gave us at the end of Matthew, so why not stick to that one?



no, I'm talking about all of the New testiment read it you will see.


----------



## Dominic (Mar 22, 2010)

Harbuck said:


> no, I'm talking about all of the New testiment read it you will see.


 
You know Acts is in the New Testment as well as Matthew.


----------



## Harbuck (Mar 22, 2010)

Dominic said:


> You know Acts is in the New Testment as well as Matthew.



yes i know and mark and luke and john. ect.


----------



## tell sackett (Mar 22, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> Here's a verse worth discussing..
> 
> John 5:19Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
> 
> ...


v.18: Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his  Father, making himself equal with God.

v.23: That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father which hath sent him.


----------



## rjcruiser (Mar 23, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> usually, the only folks who do that are catholic...



I've referenced them and it should be pretty clear that I'm not Catholic.

There is much to learn from the ECFs....as from any godly man.  That being said, their writings are not inspired and are not infallible.  But that doesn't mean we can't learn from them and hold them in high regard.



Harbuck said:


> no, I'm talking about all of the New testiment read it you will see.





That has got to be my favorite spiritual comeback.

"It's in the Bible...you just have to read it."

Harbuck...can you narrow it down a bit and give us more of a reference point?


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## Lowjack (Mar 23, 2010)

tell sackett said:


> v.18: Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his  Father, making himself equal with God.
> 
> v.23: That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father which hath sent him.



Verse 1 , The Halakah Jews thought he had broken the Sabbath or to them He did, what they didn't know was the Letter of the Law , which allowed the Homeless to pick their daily ration of Food in the Sabbath(Midrash)

The Son has to be Honor because the Son in The Flesh was The Temple of The Father who is The Holy Spirit, once he ascended and his body Glorified , They became one entity, Colossians 2;8;9.
Jesus said ;Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
Jesus is revealing not only here but in other verses that he was brought forth from the Father, he was part of the father.
Now understand this very clearly, IF JESUS IS NOT GOD , HE CANNOT SAVE YOU for only the Father can save, Isaiah 43 , "I alone Am the Saviour"

The Father is the Holy Spirit,
"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."John 4
If God is a Spirit does he have a Spirit or is he The Spirit ?
God is Holy therefore he being a Spirit  He is The Holy Spirit.
That Multiple entity thingy is not in the Word.
He has Multiple offices, such as Creator, Redeemer, Guardian of Israel,King, Husband of Israel, all powerful Almighty etc etc etc, but that doesn't mean he is 3 distinct persons or 17.


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## thedeacon (Mar 23, 2010)

In the Garden, Christ prayed to God, If it be thy will let this cup pass from me. He prayed so hard his sweat was like drops of blood.

If there is not God the Father and God the son, please tell me, who was Jesus praying to.

and in Gen. the first God said let us, and he used the word we, who is the word us and we he was referring to? Was God alone before he created the world?


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## tell sackett (Mar 23, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> Verse 1 , The Halakah Jews thought he had broken the Sabbath or to them He did, what they didn't know was the Letter of the Law , which allowed the Homeless to pick their daily ration of Food in the Sabbath(Midrash)
> 
> The Son has to be Honor because the Son in The Flesh was The Temple of The Father who is The Holy Spirit, once he ascended and his body Glorified , They became one entity, Colossians 2;8;9.
> Jesus said ;Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
> ...


Col. 2:8-9 is Paul's answer to the heresy that denied Christ's deity and that he possesed a body that could die for our sins. If the Father and the Son "became one  entity" (I got to say, I never heard that one before), how does the Son sit at the right hand of the Father?


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## Lowjack (Mar 23, 2010)

tell sackett said:


> Col. 2:8-9 is Paul's answer to the heresy that denied Christ's deity and that he possesed a body that could die for our sins. If the Father and the Son "became one  entity" (I got to say, I never heard that one before), how does the Son sit at the right hand of the Father?



AND WHO HAS DENIED HIS DEITY ? I AFFIRM IT BEYOND CURRENT CHURCH TEACHINGS !
 How many Thrones do you see in Revelation ?
You are not realizing the Humanity of the christ and the Eternity of He who lived within Him, Colossian 2;8;9 teaches that God is one and who dwells in a Glorified Human body today in its entirity.

The Throne in Heaven 
 1After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." 2At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. 3 And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian. A rainbow, resembling an emerald, encircled the throne. 4Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads. 5From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. Before the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits[a] of God. 6Also before the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal. 
   In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 7The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. 8Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under his wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come." 9Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, 10the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say: 
 11"You are worthy, our Lord and God, 
   to receive glory and honor and power, 
   for you created all things, 
      and by your will they were created 
      and have their being."


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## centerpin fan (Mar 23, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> The Son has to be Honor because the Son in The Flesh was The Temple of The Father who is The Holy Spirit, once he ascended and his body Glorified , They became one entity, Colossians 2;8;9.
> Jesus said ;Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
> Jesus is revealing not only here but in other verses that he was brought forth from the Father, he was part of the father.
> Now understand this very clearly, IF JESUS IS NOT GOD , HE CANNOT SAVE YOU for only the Father can save, Isaiah 43 , "I alone Am the Saviour"
> ...



I'm having trouble following this.  Let me try something else.  In Matt. 28, Jesus says the following:

_"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"_

Yes or no:

Is the Father God?

Is the Son God?

Is the Holy Spirit God?

These are not trick questions.


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## Lowjack (Mar 23, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> I'm having trouble following this.  Let me try something else.  In Matt. 28, Jesus says the following:
> 
> _"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"_
> 
> ...



He is God.
The Father and the Holy Spirit are one and the same, The son is the Flesh (Man) Conceived in Mariame a Human, but he who dwells in that Human Body is the Same Father who is the Holy Spirit.
The Flesh Prayed to the Father, the flesh was Mortal, the flesh felt as any man, he was hungry, he was thristy, he tired like any man, but yet The Holy Spirit within Him sustained him.The Biological part of that special man was not God, so he was transformed and glorified and ascended to The Heavens where he became what he was before ascending into earth.
He will return and after He puts all his enemies under his feet , once again he will be known by one name.


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## tell sackett (Mar 23, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> AND WHO HAS DENIED HIS DEITY ? I AFFIRM IT BEYOND CURRENT CHURCH TEACHINGS !
> How many Thrones do you see in Revelation ?
> You are not realizing the Humanity of the christ and the Eternity of He who lived within Him, Colossian 2;8;9 teaches that God is one and who dwells in a Glorified Human body today in its entirity.
> 
> ...


Dood, dial it down a notch and go back and read what I typed about Col.2:8-9. I did not in any way imply that you were denying the deity of Christ. I wrote that Paul was refuting a Colossian heresy.

I thought you might go to the scripture about the throne of God in heaven, so I did a little looking. Apparently there will be many thrones in heaven. The disciples will have thrones(Matt.19:28; Lu.22:30); the 24 elders will have thrones(Rev.4:4,11:16); Rev.20:4 speaks of thrones, though it doesn't give a number. The Son sits on His throne at the right hand of the Father. 

Just as a little side note: TYPING AT SOMEONE IN ALL CAPS(THE EQUIVALENT OF YELLING) might not be the best way to get your point across. Have a good one brother.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 23, 2010)

tell sackett said:


> v.18: Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his  Father, making himself equal with God.
> 
> v.23: That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father which hath sent him.



Equal but not the same.  Right?


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## tell sackett (Mar 23, 2010)

Three seperate persons, all fully devine, one God.


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## BeenHuntn (Mar 23, 2010)

tell sackett said:


> Three seperate persons, all fully devine, one God.



please explain how God is a "person"... did you get that from a concordance, Bible, etc? i have heard that before and dont get it...  gracios.


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## Inthegarge (Mar 23, 2010)

Still waiting for some one to explain WHY Jesus said to baptize in the "name" of three personages/roles/names/etc......... I see a lot of semantics but no sensible explaination !!!  I don't think anyone is saying there are 3 seperate "Beings" but God (Jesus) decided to instruct His disciples to baptize in this manner......RW


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## tell sackett (Mar 23, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> please explain how God is a "person"... did you get that from a concordance, Bible, etc? i have heard that before and dont get it...  gracios.


The 50 cents word for it is "anthropomorphisms"(jaw breaker, ain't  it? especially for a country boy). The way I understand it, it's basically a method of helping us to understand some of the attributes of God. For example, there are many scriptures that refer to the hands, eyes, arms, and face of God, but we know He doesn't have these features. God the Father is a spirit.

If you prefer the word "beings" or some other one where I wrote "persons", that's ok by me.


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## Harbuck (Mar 23, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> I've referenced them and it should be pretty clear that I'm not Catholic.
> 
> There is much to learn from the ECFs....as from any godly man.  That being said, their writings are not inspired and are not infallible.  But that doesn't mean we can't learn from them and hold them in high regard.
> 
> ...




ok, the evidence is overwhelming. 

JESUS is the divinely revealed redemptive name of God, equivalent to Yahweh in the Old Testament. 

Jesus literally means: ‘Yahweh is Salvation’, or Jehovah Saviour. In the Old Testament God gave Israel a name prior to delivering them from Egyptian bondage. The name revealed by God was: ‘I AM THAT I AM’ or ‘Yahweh’ (Jehovah). This is known as the redemptive name of God in the Old Testament (Ex. 3:14).

In similar fashion when it came to the spiritual redemption from sin that Christ accomplished in the New Testament God revealed a name by which He should be known. This name was JESUS (Mat. 1:21). In the Gospel of Matthew the name JESUS appears in UPPER CASE, the significance of this is that it is associating the name of JESUS with the UPPER CASE ‘LORD’ of the Old Testament, wherever LORD appeared like this it was reference to the redemptive name i.e. Yahweh (Jehovah).

To call on the Name of JESUS is to call God Himself. 

As Jesus was God in flesh (1 Tim. 3:16, Jhn. 1:14), the Name JESUS is the Name of God. No surprise then that when Paul meets the Lord on the Damascus road and asks ‘who art thou?’ that God replies: “I AM Jesus” (Acts 9:5). Also, when Thomas realises Jesus he risen he proclaims Christ to be both ‘my Lord and my God’ (Jhn. 20:28).

The Name of Jesus is the name which relates to the titles Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Hence, Matthew wrote of ‘the name’ singular and not ‘the names’ plural (Mat. 28:19). Jesus is the name by which the whole family of heaven is named (Eph. 3:14-15). As Sons of God and joint heirs we take on His Name at our baptism, hence to be baptised in Jesus’ name (Acts 2:38).

JESUS is the Name God Answers in Prayer. 

Jesus said that whatever we ask in His Name He will do it that God would be glorified (Jhn. 14:13-14). That alone is a powerful thought and an encouragement to anyone who is suffering or in need. As His children we can ask in Jesus name and God will hear and answer us. It is a promise and God can not lie.

Only those who know Him can use His Name. 

However, the condition of usage is that only those with a relationship with Jesus can exercise the divine power and authority of His Name. When the sons of Scheva illegitimately tried to use Jesus Name to cast out devils, the demons would not move because the men lacked relationship (Acts. 19:13-16). But, when those who are His children use the Name of Jesus we are promised that signs will follow (Mk. 16:17) as they did in the book of Acts e.g. Peter & John healing the crippled man in Jesus’ Name (Acts. 4:10).

The ONLY Name Capable of Saving From Sin. 

The Bible plainly declares that JESUS is the only name capable of saving from sin (Acts. 4:12) and the only name given for us to use in baptism therefore. And not just baptism for we are commanded to do all things in Jesus’ name (Col. 3:17). I don’t understand why one would want to pray in Jesus name, preach in Jesus name, heal the sick in Jesus name, rebuke demons in Jesus name and then baptise ‘In the Name of The Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost’. That is just repeating the titles of God. The wonderful revelation is that the Name of Father, Son and Holy Ghost is Jesus! Peter and the eleven got this which is why they commanded baptism in Jesus’ Name in Acts 2:38, and all through the bible thereafter.

JESUS Name Baptism is the ONLY Biblical Baptism. 

There is not ONE example of a baptism done in ‘Father, Son & Holy Ghost’ in the scripture. It was a later addition, to which all historians agree. It was added to justify the doctrine of the Trinity, adopted in AD 325 at the Council of Nicea. However, biblical baptism was not originally associated with a debate on the Godhead. But, it was linked from the beginning to the atoning work of Jesus Christ. This is why baptism was to be in His Name, for He is the One who was crucified, died and rose for our sins (1 Cor. 1:13).

In JESUS Name Identifies Us With His Atoning Work.

In Romans 6:3 it makes it plain that by being baptised in Jesus’ Name we are identifying with His death, burial and resurrection. Acts 2:38 explains that only by using the Name of Jesus can our sin be removed (remitted). Therefore, to plunge and not use the name is invalid as no identification with Christ’s atoning work has taken place. The express purpose of the Triune formula is to identify one with the Trinity. Being identified with the Trinity is different to being identified with Christ’s atoning work. Christ never intended for baptism to be into the Trinity, it was supposed to be into His death, burial and resurrection – into Christ, and Christ alone. Worse, neither the term Trinity nor a concrete definition of this taken for granted doctrine is found in scripture. Which of the Apostles ever used the words ‘person’, ’substance’, ‘co-equal’ or ‘co-eternal’ to describe The Holy One?

Take on His Name Today! 

Baptism in Jesus name is an essential for all who love the Lord. The answer as to why has been provided above, the question now is ‘why not?’. Why would someone not want to have the name of Jesus called over them in baptism? Why would one shy away from accepting the deity and all sufficiency of Christ?

There are two poignant examples in scripture.

Cornelius’ Household have been filled with the Spirit, speaking in tongues and yet Peter commanded that they should be baptised in Jesus’ name. Also, Paul visited the disciples baptised to John the baptist and they too needed to be re-baptised in Jesus’ name. This is suggesting that any other form of Christian baptism will not do. It needs to be in Jesus name. It needs to be the way that God intended because of the awesome redemptive power associated with JESUS’ name.

Don’t Settle For Less Than JESUS. 

I would exhort anyone reading this post who has not yet taken on the sweet name of Jesus in baptism to search the scriptures for themselves and prayerfully ask the Holy Spirit to guide you into all truth. You will see from exploring the scriptures that baptism is in JESUS name, and yes, it does matter how you are baptised. Jesus is expecting you to take His Name!


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## BeenHuntn (Mar 23, 2010)

tell sackett said:


> The 50 cents word for it is "anthropomorphisms"(jaw breaker, ain't  it? especially for a country boy). The way I understand it, it's basically a method of helping us to understand some of the attributes of God. For example, there are many scriptures that refer to the hands, eyes, arms, and face of God, but we know He doesn't have these features. God the Father is a spirit.
> 
> If you prefer the word "beings" or some other one where I wrote "persons", that's ok by me.



just curious where He got the attribute of "person"... when i hear "person", i think "flesh" which doesnt describe a spirit God. so it has always confused me. but it doesnt take much these days to confuse me...


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## tell sackett (Mar 23, 2010)

I heard that. The phrase"fishing in the dark" pretty much describes me a whole lot of the time.

I do believe that the Son is still in His glorified body of flesh. That's apparently the form He had He ascended back to heaven, and John's descriptions of Him in Revelation certainly sound like a human body.


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## centerpin fan (Mar 23, 2010)

Harbuck said:


> ... the doctrine of the Trinity, adopted in AD 325 at the Council of Nicea.



The Trinity was known long before Nicea.  Here is St. Ignatius in his _Epistle to the Philippians_, Ch. 2, "Unity of the three divine persons":

_There is then one God and Father, and not two or three; One who is; and there is no other besides Him, the only true [God]. For “the Lord thy God,” saith [the Scripture], “is one Lord And again, “Hath not one God created us? Have we not all one Father? And there is also one Son, God the Word. For “the only-begotten Son,” saith [the Scripture], “who is in the bosom of the Father.”. And again, “One Lord Jesus Christ.” And in another place, “What is His name, or what His Son’s name, that we may know?”And there is also one Paraclete. For “there is also,” saith [the Scripture], “one Spirit,” since “we have been called in one hope of our calling.” And again, “We have drunk of one Spirit,” with what follows. And it is manifest that all these gifts [possessed by believers] “worketh one and the self-same Spirit.” There are not then either three Fathers, or three Sons, or three Paracletes, but one Father, and one Son, and one Paraclete. Wherefore also the Lord, when He sent forth the apostles to make disciples of all nations, commanded them to “baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost,” not unto one [person] having three names, nor into three [persons] who became incarnate, but into three possessed of equal honour._

This passage was written as Ignatius was being taken to Rome to by martyred.  It was written right around 100 AD.


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## Lowjack (Mar 23, 2010)

tell sackett said:


> Dood, dial it down a notch and go back and read what I typed about Col.2:8-9. I did not in any way imply that you were denying the deity of Christ. I wrote that Paul was refuting a Colossian heresy.
> 
> I thought you might go to the scripture about the throne of God in heaven, so I did a little looking. Apparently there will be many thrones in heaven. The disciples will have thrones(Matt.19:28; Lu.22:30); the 24 elders will have thrones(Rev.4:4,11:16); Rev.20:4 speaks of thrones, though it doesn't give a number. The Son sits on His throne at the right hand of the Father.
> 
> Just as a little side note: TYPING AT SOMEONE IN ALL CAPS(THE EQUIVALENT OF YELLING) might not be the best way to get your point across. Have a good one brother.



I asked how many Thrones you see for God The Father  the Son and the Holy Spirit ? Smarty Pants 
I apologize for the Caps ,Now calling someone dude is at my age is kinda disrespectful and rude I think


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## Lowjack (Mar 23, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> just curious where He got the attribute of "person"... when i hear "person", i think "flesh" which doesnt describe a spirit God. so it has always confused me. but it doesnt take much these days to confuse me...



What Makes up a person in Theology is not a body.
Three things are needed to be a person.
-Intellect
-Mobility
-Will
The Heavenly father has all 3 and so do we.
Animals don't
The Holy Spirit is a person as he shows those attributes.
He planned Creation , That Took Intellect.
He moved upon the Waters and commanded the light to be, so he moves
He will everything to be and it was.

This can be studied if you just buy a systematic Theology Book and is taught in all seminaries to first year students.


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## Lowjack (Mar 23, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> The Trinity was known long before Nicea.  Here is St. Ignatius in his _Epistle to the Philippians_, Ch. 2, "Unity of the three divine persons":
> 
> _There is then one God and Father, and not two or three; One who is; and there is no other besides Him, the only true [God]. For “the Lord thy God,” saith [the Scripture], “is one Lord And again, “Hath not one God created us? Have we not all one Father? And there is also one Son, God the Word. For “the only-begotten Son,” saith [the Scripture], “who is in the bosom of the Father.”. And again, “One Lord Jesus Christ.” And in another place, “What is His name, or what His Son’s name, that we may know?”And there is also one Paraclete. For “there is also,” saith [the Scripture], “one Spirit,” since “we have been called in one hope of our calling.” And again, “We have drunk of one Spirit,” with what follows. And it is manifest that all these gifts [possessed by believers] “worketh one and the self-same Spirit.” There are not then either three Fathers, or three Sons, or three Paracletes, but one Father, and one Son, and one Paraclete. Wherefore also the Lord, when He sent forth the apostles to make disciples of all nations, commanded them to “baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost,” not unto one [person] having three names, nor into three [persons] who became incarnate, but into three possessed of equal honour._
> 
> This passage was written as Ignatius was being taken to Rome to by martyred.  It was written right around 100 AD.



The Teachings of god as a trinity goes back even further than Jesus;

http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/doctrine/The Origin of the Trinity.htm:O


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## tell sackett (Mar 23, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> I asked how many Thrones you see for God The Father  the Son and the Holy Spirit ? Smarty Pants
> I apologize for the Caps ,Now calling someone dude is at my age is kinda disrespectful and rude I think


To continue being a smartypants, the actual question was "How many thrones do you see in Revelation?" To answer your modified question: I think there are at least two, one for the Father and one for the Son who sits at His right hand.

As for the caps, no problem, I actually like a preacher who doesn't mind hollering a little. 

No disrespect intended, I ain't no spring chicken myself.


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## centerpin fan (Mar 23, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> The Teachings of god as a trinity goes back even further than Jesus;
> 
> http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/doctrine/The Origin of the Trinity.htm:O



The link doesn't work.


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## Lowjack (Mar 23, 2010)

tell sackett said:


> To continue being a smartypants, the actual question was "How many thrones do you see in Revelation?" To answer your modified question: I think there are at least two, one for the Father and one for the Son who sits at His right hand.
> 
> As for the caps, no problem, I actually like a preacher who doesn't mind hollering a little.
> 
> No disrespect intended, I ain't no spring chicken myself.



Find the Two and let me know where in the bible, wise guy !


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## Lowjack (Mar 23, 2010)

Just in case you went blind on me, LOL


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## earl (Mar 23, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> What Makes up a person in Theology is not a body.
> Three things are needed to be a person.
> -Intellect
> -Mobility
> ...





Bad analogy imho.
Intellect -animals have the capacity to learn and reason.
Mobility-I can't think of any animal that does not move.
Will- You ever try to make a goat touch his nose to the ground forcefully ?

I wouldn't put much faith in your theology book. Especially for a first year student at a ''cemetary''.


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## Harbuck (Mar 23, 2010)

*the origins of the trinity concept*

http://www.hindunet.org/god/trinity/index.htm


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## Harbuck (Mar 24, 2010)

*////*

the historical origins of the trinity myth
http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch1.2.5.html


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## Ronnie T (Mar 24, 2010)

I think we could put all these thread comments into booklet form and use it as a teaching guide for those seeking information concerning the Trinity.
I'm sure it would clarify the issue for them.


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## Harbuck (Mar 24, 2010)

*more proof that the trinity myth is false.....*

Tertullian (155-220AD), a lawyer and presbyter of the third-century Church in Carthage, was the first Christian to coin the word "Trinity" when he put forth the theory that the Son and the Spirit participate in the being of God, but all are of one being of substance with the Father (Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, V4, p. 711). 


About this time, two separate events were about to lead up to the official recognition of the church by the Roman empire. On the one hand, Emperor Constantine, the pagan emperor of the Romans, began to notice the increasing number of converts to the new faith among his subjects. They were no longer a petty fringe sect of no great concern to the empire, rather, their presence was becoming increasingly noticeable, and the severe division and animosity between their ranks was beginning to pose a serious threat to the internal stability of the empire as a whole.


On the Christian front, controversy over the matter of the Trinity had in 318C.E. once again just blown up between two church men from Alexandria, Arius, the deacon, and Alexander, his bishop. Now Emperor Constantine stepped into the fray. The emperor sent these men many letters encouraging them to put aside their "trivial" disputes regarding the nature of God and the "number" of God, etc. To one who had become accustomed to being surrounded by countless gods, and goddesses, and demi-gods, and man-gods, and incarnations of gods, and resurrections of gods, and so forth, the issue of whether a given sect worshipped one god or three gods or "three gods in one" was all very trivial and inconsequential.


After several repeated attempts by the emperor to pacify them failed, he finally found himself in 325 CE faced with two serious controversies that divided his Christian subjects: the observance of the Passover on Easter Sunday, and the concept of the Trinity. Emperor Constantine realized that a unified church was necessary for a strong kingdom. When negotiations failed to settle the dispute, the emperor called the "Council of Nicea" in order to resolve these, and other matters. The council met and voted on whether Jesus (pbuh) was God or not. They effectively voted Jesus into the position of God with an amendment condemning all Christians who believed in the unity of God. There is even extensive proof that most of those who signed this decree did not actually believe in it or understand it but thought it politically expedient to do so. Neo-Platonic philosophy was the means by which this newly defined doctrine of "Trinity" was formulated. One of the attendees, Apuleius, wrote "I pass over in silence," explaining that "those sublime and Platonic doctrines understood by very few of the pious, and absolutely unknown to every one of the profane." The vast majority of the others signed under political pressure consoling themselves with such words as "the soul is nothing worse for a little ink." It is narrated that out of the 2030 attendees, only 318 readily accepted this creed ("Al-Seerah Al-Nabawiyya", Abu Al-Hassan Al-Nadwi, p. 306). They then approved the doctrine of homoousious meaning: of &QUOT;CO-EQUALITY, CO-ETERNITY, AND CONSUBSTANTIALITY&QUOT; of the second person of the Trinity with the Father. The doctrine became known as the Creed of Nicea.


Only on returning home did other attendees such as Eusebius of Nicomedia, Maris of Chaledon and Theognis of Nicaea summon the courage to express to Constantine in writing how much they regretted having put their signatures to the Nicene formula: "We committed an impious act, O Prince," wrote Eusebius of Nicomedia, "by subscribing to a blasphemy from fear of you."


However, the damage was already done and there would be no undoing it now. It has been recorded that thirteen conferences were held in the fourth century wherein Arius and his beliefs were condemned. On the other hand, fifteen supported him. While seventeen conferences issued decrees similar to the beliefs of the Arians ("Al-Seerah Al-Nabawiyya", Abu Al-Hassan Al-Nadwi, p. 306).


Of the fruits of this council, Jesus (pbuh) was made "Very God." Shortly thereafter, his mother Mary (pbuh) was given the title of "Ever Virgin." It would not be long until these concepts were later combined in 431AD to give her the title "Theotokos" (God-bearing). This is how she became known to us as "Mother of God."


The persecution of the Jews was just now getting into full swing and with it a severe disdain and intolerance for all Christians who did not convert to the new creeds. The books of Arius and his sympathizers were ordered to be burnt, and a reign of terror proclaimed for all those who did not conform with the new, "official" Christian beliefs. The following is one of the public declarations in this regard:


"Understand now by this present statute, Novatians, Valentinians, Marcionites, Paulinians, you who are called Cataphrygians ... with what a tissue of lies and vanities, with what destructive and venomous errors, your doctrines are inextricably woven! We give you warning... Let none of you presume, from this time forward, to meet in congregations. To prevent this, we command that you be deprived of all the houses in which you have been accustomed to meet .. . and that these should be handed over immediately to the catholic [i.e. official] church." 



Following the Conference of Nicea, the matter of the "Trinity" remained far from settled. Despite high hopes for such on the part of Constantine, Arius and the new bishop of Alexandria, a man named Athanasius, began arguing over the matter even as the Nicene Creed was being signed; "Arianism" became a catch-word from that time onward for anyone who didn't hold to the newly defined doctrine of the Trinity. Athanasius, the bishop who is popularly credited for having formulated this doctrine, confessed that the more he wrote on the matter, the more his thoughts recoiled upon themselves and the less capable he was of clearly expressing his thoughts regarding it. After the Council of Chalcedon in 451, debate on the matter was no longer tolerated; to speak out against the Trinity was now considered blasphemy and earned stiff sentences that ranged from mutilation to death. Christians now turned on Christians, maiming and slaughtering thousand because of this difference of belief.


Some people might object that the words of all of these eminent Christian scholars and highly respected references are all in error. They claim that Jesus (pbuh) did indeed teach the "Trinity" to the disciples, but that he did so in secret to them alone. The disciples then went on and secretly taught others, and then a couple of centuries later it was made public knowledge. However, not only is this theory based upon no evidence from the Bible, but it actually contradicts the words of Jesus himself: 


"Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing." 

This "triune God" theory was not a novel concept but one that was very much in vogue during the early Christian era. There was:


The Egyptian triad of Ramses II, Amon-Ra, and Nut. 
The Egyptian triad of Horus, Osiris, and Isis. 
The Palmyra triad of moon god, Lord of the Heavens, and sun god. 
The Babylonian triad of Ishtar, Sin, and Shamash. 
The Mahayana Buddhist triune of transformation body, enjoyment body, and truth body. 
The Hindu triad (Tri-murti) of Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva.


----------



## thedeacon (Mar 24, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> I think we could put all these thread comments into booklet form and use it as a teaching guide for those seeking information concerning the Trinity.
> I'm sure it would clarify the issue for them.



About as clear as my wife trying to explain to me why she bought someone else's junk at a yard sale


----------



## tell sackett (Mar 24, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> Find the Two and let me know where in the bible, wise guy !


Matt.19:28,25:31; Eph.3:20; Col.3:1; Heb.1:3,8; 10:12; Rev.3:21,20:11


----------



## gtparts (Mar 24, 2010)

Try this one.

http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/doctrine/The Origin of the Trinity.htm

Or just delete the "semicolon and O" on the end.


----------



## centerpin fan (Mar 24, 2010)

Harbuck said:


> the historical origins of the trinity myth
> http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch1.2.5.html



Look at the link.  It's a Muslim site.  Obviously, they don't believe in the Trinity.


----------



## centerpin fan (Mar 24, 2010)

Harbuck said:


> Tertullian (155-220AD), a lawyer and presbyter of the third-century Church in Carthage, was the first Christian to coin the word "Trinity" when he put forth the theory that the Son and the Spirit participate in the being of God, but all are of one being of substance with the Father (Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, V4, p. 711).
> 
> 
> About this time, two separate events were about to lead up to the official recognition of the church by the Roman empire. On the one hand, Emperor Constantine, the pagan emperor of the Romans, began to notice the increasing number of converts to the new faith among his subjects. They were no longer a petty fringe sect of no great concern to the empire, rather, their presence was becoming increasingly noticeable, and the severe division and animosity between their ranks was beginning to pose a serious threat to the internal stability of the empire as a whole.
> ...



Again, this is lifted verbatim from a Muslim site.  I will grant you that Muslims do not believe in "God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit."


----------



## gtparts (Mar 24, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> Look at the link.  It's a Muslim site.  Obviously, they don't believe in the Trinity.



One of the principle reasons Muslims regard Christians as infidels is that they regard Christians as polytheists. They have a hard time understanding the concept of one God expressing Himself as three"personalities" or manifestations or representations, just as some on here do.


----------



## centerpin fan (Mar 24, 2010)

gtparts said:


> Try this one.
> 
> http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/doctrine/The Origin of the Trinity.htm
> 
> Or just delete the "semicolon and O" on the end.




Thanks for the correct link.

As I said to Harbuck above ... in all things, consider the source.  This article was printed in the Herald magazine which is published by the Pastoral Bible Institute.  The PBI grew out of the Bible Student movement which has its roots in the Jehovah's Witnesses.

First, Diogenes quotes a Mormon source and now Lowjack is using JW material.  Miracles never cease!


----------



## rjcruiser (Mar 24, 2010)

Harbuck said:


> [/B]
> 
> ok, the evidence is overwhelming.
> 
> JESUS is the divinely revealed redemptive name of God, equivalent to Yahweh in the Old Testament.......................................................................................



wow...you are a great scholar.

If you cut & paste...you should at least do us all the favor of posting the link

http://www.zimbio.com/Jehovah's+Witnesses/articles/aL-fbaLNvLq/Baptism+In+Jesus+name



But...alas, it does tell us a bunch about you and your belief system.  No wonder you can't believe in the Trinity...you don't even believe that Jesus Christ is God.


----------



## thedeacon (Mar 24, 2010)

One problem I see here in some of these post, people are trying to figure out the mind of God. We can't do that, its impossible on  some accounts, God doesn't even owe us an explaination for why or what he does. 

My question has still not been andwered, WHO WAS JESUS PRAYING TO IN THE GARDEN WHEN HE ASK, IF IT BE THY WILL LET THIS CUP PASS FROM ME??????? Was he praying to himself for himself.


----------



## Lowjack (Mar 24, 2010)

tell sackett said:


> Matt.19:28,25:31; Eph.3:20; Col.3:1; Heb.1:3,8; 10:12; Rev.3:21,20:11



These verses only prove there is only one Throne
21To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Sitting at The Right Hand of The Father is what The Glorified Body of The Messiah is doing until all things are placed under his feet, at the end his name will be One(Aleph) the Same as In Genesis the same as In Isaiah 43(Aleph)


----------



## Lowjack (Mar 24, 2010)

thedeacon said:


> One problem I see here in some of these post, people are trying to figure out the mind of God. We can't do that, its impossible on  some accounts, God doesn't even owe us an explaination for why or what he does.
> 
> My question has still not been andwered, WHO WAS JESUS PRAYING TO IN THE GARDEN WHEN HE ASK, IF IT BE THY WILL LET THIS CUP PASS FROM ME??????? Was he praying to himself for himself.



No, Jesus is the Flesh, The Spirit within Him is God, He was Praying to His Father who was also in Heaven at the same time.
Even Today the Spirit of God within us prays for us, for we really don't know how to pray , in a way that is acceptable to the Majesty, so the Holy Spirit interprets out prayers.

"If we don't know how or what to pray, it doesn't matter. He does our praying in and for us, making prayer out of our sighs, our aching groans." (Ro 8:26 TM)


----------



## christianhunter (Mar 24, 2010)

thedeacon said:


> One problem I see here in some of these post, people are trying to figure out the mind of God. We can't do that, its impossible on  some accounts, God doesn't even owe us an explaination for why or what he does.
> 
> My question has still not been andwered, WHO WAS JESUS PRAYING TO IN THE GARDEN WHEN HE ASK, IF IT BE THY WILL LET THIS CUP PASS FROM ME??????? Was he praying to himself for himself.



What you said above is true,about people trying to figure out the mind of GOD.Then in a lot of situations we can look to HIS WORD,and find answers to questions that have always been there.Back up everything I say in this post,with THE WORD Of GOD.I'm no false teacher,and this is not my opinion,it is the facts from THE LORD HIMSELF.THE BIBLE tells us THE LORD made HIMSELF a little lower than the Angels,when HE walked the earth.Therefore some of HIS Glory stayed in Heaven.When HE Prayed,it was to THE FATHER.THE WORD Of GOD tells us of THE FATHER,THE SON,and THE HOLY SPIRIT.THE LORD HIMSELF was Filled with THE HOLY SPIRIT,and Prayed to THE FATHER on The Mountain,when HE was tempted.When HE was Baptized,THE FATHER spoke from Heaven,and THE HOLY SPIRIT descended as a dove.HE also said,"When you see ME,you have seen THE FATHER."
Thomas called THE LORD JESUS,"My LORD and my GOD".Stephen who The Bible refers to as "a man full of Faith and THE HOLY SPIRIT".As he was being stoned,saw the heavens opened up,and proclaimed he saw THE LORD sitting at The Right Hand of THE FATHER.FATHER and SON in Heaven,and THE HOLY SPIRIT indwelling all believers.Who can explain this?

Man consists of three different parts body,soul,and spirit.He is still just one man.We have GOD THE FATHER,GOD THE SON,and GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT.The Book of Genesis says,"Let US create man in OUR Image."

My take on this, is man,a tiny little speck in all of these vast galaxies in space. Which in all actuality is a small little box to GOD.We try to fit HIM into our realm,and our way of thinking and understanding.This can not and will not be done,until the day HE sets up HIS Kingdom on this world.


----------



## Dominic (Mar 24, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> wow...you are a great scholar.
> 
> If you cut & paste...you should at least do us all the favor of posting the link
> 
> ...


 
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/MIaORknS1Dk&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/MIaORknS1Dk&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>


----------



## christianhunter (Mar 24, 2010)

Dominic said:


> <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/MIaORknS1Dk&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/MIaORknS1Dk&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>



Even with that Dom,The Children of Israel are still HIS Chosen people.The JW's  are a cult,no comparison.


----------



## Dominic (Mar 24, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> Even with that Dom,The Children of Israel are still HIS Chosen people.The JW's are a cult,no comparison.


 
I just like to hear him sing the Jehovah song.


----------



## Harbuck (Mar 24, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> Again, this is lifted verbatim from a Muslim site.  I will grant you that Muslims do not believe in "God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit."



So your saying that you will disregard any info that isn't lifted off a trinitarian site. or fits in your agenda.?????


----------



## Harbuck (Mar 24, 2010)

*////*

did you even read the site and info. no you didn't... you seen muslim and totally shut it out as i'm sure you do wwith anything that isn't pro trinity. right???? no don't answer i already know.  Muslim or not the info is documented fact. Muslim, christian, hindu, or budist dosen't matter the source if it's fact. I could have pulled it off PBSkids and if it is documented FACT then it is DOCUMENTED FACT.


----------



## christianhunter (Mar 24, 2010)

Harbuck said:


> did you even read the site and info. no you didn't... you seen muslim and totally shut it out as i'm sure you do wwith anything that isn't pro trinity. right???? no don't answer i already know.  Muslim or not the info is documented fact. Muslim, christian, hindu, or budist dosen't matter the source if it's fact. I could have pulled it off PBSkids and if it is documented FACT then it is DOCUMENTED FACT.



If you pulled it off of Saturday Night Live or The Simpsons,would it be factual?


----------



## BeenHuntn (Mar 24, 2010)

Harbuck said:


> did you even read the site and info. no you didn't... you seen muslim and totally shut it out as i'm sure you do wwith anything that isn't pro trinity. right???? no don't answer i already know.  Muslim or not the info is documented fact. Muslim, christian, hindu, or budist dosen't matter the source if it's fact. I could have pulled it off PBSkids and if it is documented FACT then it is DOCUMENTED FACT.



harbuck, folks around here dont care about fact. its all about unity and popularity. if you're ecumenical, you can believe that Jesus is the son of satan and you'll still be popular and folks will applaud your posts... state something true from the Bible but is not popular... they'll want to gouge your eyeballs out...  anyway, everybody that believes in Christ goes to heaven... dont matter if they worship statues, idolize men, follow satan.... just unite with everybody... and dont ever disagree with the masses.


----------



## christianhunter (Mar 24, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> harbuck, folks around here dont care about fact. its all about unity and popularity. if you're ecumenical, you can believe that Jesus is the son of satan and you'll still be popular and folks will applaud your posts... state something true from the Bible but is not popular... they'll want to gouge your eyeballs out...  anyway, everybody that believes in Christ goes to heaven... dont matter if they worship statues, idolize men, follow satan.... just unite with everybody... and dont ever disagree with the masses.



BH,let me see if I have this right?
You are defending The views of the muslim faith?
Then you make the other ridiculous remarks,and think it is justified?


----------



## centerpin fan (Mar 24, 2010)

Harbuck said:


> So your saying that you will disregard any info that isn't lifted off a trinitarian site.



No, I'm saying that I consider sources.




Harbuck said:


> or fits in your agenda.?????



Muslims have no agenda?


----------



## BeenHuntn (Mar 24, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> BH,let me see if I have this right?
> You are defending The views of the muslim faith?
> Then you make the other ridiculous remarks,and think it is justified?



i did not even mention his posts or anything about the muslim faith. so how could i have been agreeing? i was simply commenting to him about the ecumenical nature of this forum. which is completely unbiblical... i dont see where anything i said was ridiculous. was my comment justified? yes.


----------



## christianhunter (Mar 24, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> i did not even mention his posts or anything about the muslim faith. so how could i have been agreeing? i was simply commenting to him about the ecumenical nature of this forum. which is completely unbiblical... i dont see where anything i said was ridiculous. was my comment justified? yes.



He called articles from a Muslim site Documented Fact,do you agree?Several things starting with the remarks about satan were ridiculous,IMO.


----------



## centerpin fan (Mar 24, 2010)

Harbuck said:


> Muslim or not the info is documented fact. Muslim, christian, hindu, or budist dosen't matter the source if it's fact. I could have pulled it off PBSkids and if it is documented FACT then it is DOCUMENTED FACT.



This passage you cite contains some facts and some fabrications.  Look at this section, for example:

_The council met and voted on whether Jesus (pbuh) was God or not. They effectively voted Jesus into the position of God with an amendment condemning all Christians who believed in the unity of God. There is even extensive proof that most of those who signed this decree did not actually believe in it or understand it but thought it politically expedient to do so...  It is narrated that out of the 2030 attendees, only 318 readily accepted this creed ("Al-Seerah Al-Nabawiyya", Abu Al-Hassan Al-Nadwi, p. 306). _

First of all, there were not 2,030 attendees.  There were actually about 300 (the exact number is disputed.)  Secondly, one man (Arius) began teaching something new:  that Jesus was (for a time) not God.  This teaching spread rapidly and caused much division; therefore, the Council of Nicea was called to debate the issue.  Arius' chief opponent at Nicea was Athanasius.  Appealing to scripture and the ancient hymns and liturgies of the church, Athanasius thrashed Arius in debate.  The overwhelming number of the attendees agreed with Athanasius on what the church had always taught:  that Jesus is divine.

Athanasius book, _On the Incarnation_, is a classic.  You should read it.


----------



## centerpin fan (Mar 24, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> harbuck, folks around here dont care about fact. its all about unity and popularity. if you're ecumenical, you can believe that Jesus is the son of satan and you'll still be popular and folks will applaud your posts... state something true from the Bible but is not popular... they'll want to gouge your eyeballs out...  anyway, everybody that believes in Christ goes to heaven... dont matter if they worship statues, idolize men, follow satan.... just unite with everybody... and dont ever disagree with the masses.



BH, you really need to find a good church.


----------



## BeenHuntn (Mar 24, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> He called articles from a Muslim site Documented Fact,do you agree?Several things starting with the remarks about satan were ridiculous,IMO.



ch, his posts are too long for me. i didnt read any of them. i read one small part and it was about "fact". i simply made a comment about how unimportant fact is to this forum... i have seen you call articles from christian cults in the past and unite with false brethren, antichrists and pagans... i dont recall me stringing you up over it... i didnt even mention it.


----------



## Dominic (Mar 24, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> bh, you really need to find a good church.


 

statement
   under​


----------



## BeenHuntn (Mar 24, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> BH, you really need to find a good church.



contrary to the lie you have been fed from the churchianity men. church is not God. church is not salvation. church is not heaven.  the church that i belong to is not a building on the corner next to the religious synagog of satan. it is not a building that men's hands has built. its the only church that matters. the church that the gates of hellll would not prevail against.  thank you cf, but i'm in the only perfect church already...


----------



## BeenHuntn (Mar 24, 2010)

Dominic said:


> statement
> under​



swine
pearls


----------



## centerpin fan (Mar 24, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> contrary to the lie you have been fed from the churchianity men. church is not God. church is not salvation. church is not heaven.  the church that i belong to is not a building on the corner next to the religious synagog of satan. it is not a building that men's hands has built. its the only church that matters. the church that the gates of hellll would not prevail against.  thank you cf, but i'm in the only perfect church already...



The NT Christians met together at least weekly.  You should find a good local chuch where you can do the same.  

This "just me and my Bible" concept is foreign to the New Testament.


----------



## Dominic (Mar 24, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> swine
> pearls


 
Swine under pearls?


----------



## BeenHuntn (Mar 24, 2010)

Dominic said:


> Swine under pearls?



statement over under?


----------



## Dominic (Mar 24, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> The NT Christians met together at least weekly. You should find a good local chuch where you can do the same.
> 
> This "just me and my Bible" concept is foreign to the New Testament.


 
I know a "just me and my Bible" guy, hangs around Barrett Parkway all the time and rides a bike.


----------



## Dominic (Mar 24, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> statement over under?


 

Good point this would have made more sense




STATEMENT



centerpin fan said:


> BH, you really need to find a good church.


----------



## BeenHuntn (Mar 24, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> The NT Christians met together at least weekly.  You should find a good local chuch where you can do the same.
> 
> This "just me and my Bible" concept is foreign to the New Testament.



cf, seriously bro... read your Bible and stop reading the ech's... the concept as a whole in the Bible is that the Word of God is the only thing that matters. but when you read augustine, origin and polycarp... you will never find the truth of Christ... ever. when i stand before Christ on judgement day... i will be guilty only of elevating the Word of God above the world and the evil men that rule it... i cant wait...


----------



## centerpin fan (Mar 24, 2010)

Dominic said:


> I know a "just me and my Bible" guy, hangs around Barrett Parkway all the time and rides a bike.



I hope that's not BH!


----------



## BeenHuntn (Mar 24, 2010)

Dominic said:


> Good point this would have made more sense
> 
> 
> 
> ...



you're funny. but the fact that your church teaches their flock become Christ and God... is not.


----------



## BeenHuntn (Mar 24, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> I hope that's not BH!



i dont have a bike. my daughter has a tricycle... that must be me out there...


----------



## centerpin fan (Mar 24, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> cf, seriously bro... read your Bible and stop reading the ech's... the concept as a whole in the Bible is that the Word of God is the only thing that matters. but when you read augustine, origin and polycarp... you will never find the truth of Christ... ever. when i stand before Christ on judgement day... i will be guilty only of elevating the Word of God above the world and the evil men that rule it... i cant wait...



How do you know what I read?  Here's a Bible passage that I just read in Acts 2:


_42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. 

 43And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. 

 44And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 

 45And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. 

 46And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 

 47Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved._


Why is this concept of meeting with other believers so awful?


----------



## Dominic (Mar 24, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> stop reading the ech's...


 
You mean like "My fish have ech " because I think that's spelled with an 'i' not an 'e'


----------



## Dominic (Mar 24, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> I hope that's not BH!


 
Couldn't be him. Not sure he's balanced enough to ride a bike.


----------



## Dominic (Mar 24, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> you're funny. but the fact that your church teaches their flock become Christ and God... is not.


 
My Church has never taught such a thing, good try...


----------



## Dominic (Mar 24, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> How do you know what I read? Here's a Bible passage that I just read in Acts 2:
> 
> 
> _42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. _
> ...


 

You and your impossible lies. Next thing we'll know you'll claim St. Paul wrote letters to Churches...


----------



## centerpin fan (Mar 24, 2010)

Dominic said:


> You and your impossible lies. Next thing we'll know you'll claim St. Paul wrote letters to Churches...



... or churchianity?


----------



## Harbuck (Mar 25, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> This passage you cite contains some facts and some fabrications.  Look at this section, for example:
> 
> _The council met and voted on whether Jesus (pbuh) was God or not. They effectively voted Jesus into the position of God with an amendment condemning all Christians who believed in the unity of God. There is even extensive proof that most of those who signed this decree did not actually believe in it or understand it but thought it politically expedient to do so...  It is narrated that out of the 2030 attendees, only 318 readily accepted this creed ("Al-Seerah Al-Nabawiyya", Abu Al-Hassan Al-Nadwi, p. 306). _
> 
> ...



 from now own i'll stick to quoteing bible you can't refute that. 
I do not wish to argue with anyone I just am trying to get you all to stop being so narrow minded and step outside of your traditional beliefs long enough to see that the trinity is a missguided concept, myth, cult,ect. ect. or at least study on something other then your trinity and pray for god to guide you in the right direction. just because your mom and dad granny or pappa believed it to be truth dosen't make it so. the evidence that the lord our god is one is overwhelming to say the least. but you close yourselves to it because it dosen't fit what you beleave is in fact truth. check and compare with an open mind and heart and let God guide.


----------



## Harbuck (Mar 25, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> No, Jesus is the Flesh, The Spirit within Him is God, He was Praying to His Father who was also in Heaven at the same time.
> Even Today the Spirit of God within us prays for us, for we really don't know how to pray , in a way that is acceptable to the Majesty, so the Holy Spirit interprets out prayers.
> 
> "If we don't know how or what to pray, it doesn't matter. He does our praying in and for us, making prayer out of our sighs, our aching groans." (Ro 8:26 TM)



agree 100%


----------



## centerpin fan (Mar 25, 2010)

Harbuck said:


> from now own i'll stick to quoteing bible you can't refute that.



Speaking of which:

_In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God._




Harbuck said:


> that the lord our god is one is overwhelming to say the least.



Trinitarians believe in one God.  Go back and read what Ignatius wrote (my post #95.)


----------



## Harbuck (Mar 25, 2010)

*////////*



centerpin fan said:


> Speaking of which:
> 
> _In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God._
> 
> ...


----------



## Harbuck (Mar 25, 2010)

*////*

Father, son, and holy spirit are titles but Jesus is the name of the one true god. All of his power dwells in that name alone. so so why call on a title that has no power in it.


----------



## centerpin fan (Mar 25, 2010)

Harbuck said:


> so why do trinitarians choose to have 3 seperate gods



Trinitarians do not believe in three gods.  Look at what Ignatius wrote again (emphasis mine):


_There is then one God and Father, and not two or three; One who is; and there is no other besides Him, the only true [God]. For “the Lord thy God,” saith [the Scripture], “is one Lord And again, “Hath not one God created us? Have we not all one Father? And there is also one Son, God the Word. For “the only-begotten Son,” saith [the Scripture], “who is in the bosom of the Father.”. And again, “One Lord Jesus Christ.” And in another place, “What is His name, or what His Son’s name, that we may know?”And there is also one Paraclete. For “there is also,” saith [the Scripture], “one Spirit,” since “we have been called in one hope of our calling.” And again, “We have drunk of one Spirit,” with what follows. And it is manifest that all these gifts [possessed by believers] “worketh one and the self-same Spirit.” There are not then either three Fathers, or three Sons, or three Paracletes, but one Father, and one Son, and one Paraclete. Wherefore also the Lord, when He sent forth the apostles to make disciples of all nations, commanded them to “baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost,” not unto one [person] having three names, nor into three [persons] who became incarnate, but into three possessed of equal honour._


When he wrote this, the Apostle John might still have been alive.  If not, there were plenty of other disciples of the apostles who were still around.  If Ignatius was speaking heresy, somebody would've called him on it.


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## Harbuck (Mar 25, 2010)

*333333333*

you are clearly seperateing God into 3 so yes you have 3 gods a council if you will. Trinity dosen't mean 1 it means 3 correct. I read it and it seperates God.


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## PWalls (Mar 25, 2010)

Harbuck said:


> you are clearly seperateing God into 3 so yes you have 3 gods a council if you will. Trinity dosen't mean 1 it means 3 correct. I read it and it seperates God.



Trinity means one God with three aspects/responsibilities/duties. That is my take.

God as the Holy Spirit convicts me of my sins. I then pray through God the Saviour for forgiveness of those sins. I am praying through God the Saviour (Jesus) to God the Creator (Father).

God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.


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## E-llyk (Mar 25, 2010)

PWalls said:


> Trinity means one God with three aspects/responsibilities/duties. That is my take.
> 
> God as the Holy Spirit convicts me of my sins. I then pray through God the Saviour for forgiveness of those sins. I am praying through God the Saviour (Jesus) to God the Creator (Father).
> 
> God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.



I don't get it. If the trinity means One God then why do you pray to the 3 different parts of Him. If he is one God then why pray to each of parts of him separately. That would make 3 gods...not ONE. Why separate God?


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## Lowjack (Mar 25, 2010)

PWalls said:


> Trinity means one God with three aspects/responsibilities/duties. That is my take.
> 
> God as the Holy Spirit convicts me of my sins. I then pray through God the Saviour for forgiveness of those sins. I am praying through God the Saviour (Jesus) to God the Creator (Father).
> 
> God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.



Not when you use terminology such as God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, distinct but yet one
Now look up the terminology "Distinct"
Distinct Meaning and Definition
(a.) Distinguished; having the difference marked; separated by a visible sign; marked out; specified.
(a.) Not identical; different; individual.(a.) So separated as not to be confounded with any other thing; not liable to be misunderstood; not confused; well-defined; clear; as, we have a distinct or indistinct view of a prospect.
(a.) Separate in place; not conjunct; not united by growth or otherwise; -- with from.
(a.) Marked; variegated.
(v. t.) To distinguish.


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## PWalls (Mar 25, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> Not when you use terminology such as God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, distinct but yet one
> Now look up the terminology "Distinct"
> Distinct Meaning and Definition
> (a.) Distinguished; having the difference marked; separated by a visible sign; marked out; specified.
> ...



I know what "distinct" means and that is not how I worship. I do not imagine 3 different and distinct beings sitting around in Heaven (I guess He could do that if He wanted to).

He is with me as God the Holy Spirit to convict me of my sins and show me the way. He is with me as God the Son and Word as my saviour and light. He is with me as God the Father and Creator. Still just one entity.


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## PWalls (Mar 25, 2010)

E-llyk said:


> I don't get it. If the trinity means One God then why do you pray to the 3 different parts of Him. If he is one God then why pray to each of parts of him separately. That would make 3 gods...not ONE. Why separate God?



I do not pray to three different parts. I pray to God.


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## E-llyk (Mar 25, 2010)

PWalls said:


> Trinity means one God with three aspects/responsibilities/duties. That is my take.
> 
> God as the Holy Spirit convicts me of my sins. I then pray through God the Saviour for forgiveness of those sins. I am praying through God the Saviour (Jesus) to God the Creator (Father).
> 
> God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.



You do pray to 3 separate parts. It's saying that God himself isn't "big" enough to do the job alone, that you have to separate him. You pray to God the father for one thing, Jesus for another, and the Holy Spirit for another. If God is one why separate him? God is God is God. The trinity sounds like you are giving God alter egos.

BTW if trinity means one God with 3 different responsibilites/aspects/duties...God is really infinite so wouldn't his responsibilites/aspects/duties be endless...more than 3.


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## post450 (Mar 25, 2010)

E-llyk said:


> You do pray to 3 separate parts.



I would hesitate to claim to know how or to whom anyone prayed, but that's just my opinion. 

Speaking of praying, how exactly does the Jesus Only/Oneness group (I assume that is your and Harbuck's doctrine/denomination) explain the following scripture from I John chapter 2, specifically verse1?

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"

or Romans 8:34?

"Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us."

Who exactly, is Jesus advocating and making intercession to?  




Harbuck said:


> Father, son, and holy spirit are titles but Jesus is the name of the one true god. All of his power dwells in that name alone. so so why call on a title that has no power in it.



As to the "titles" of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, why did Jesus say in Mark 3:29 "But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal ****ation:" if the Holy Ghost is merely a title? Wouldn't the name of Jesus be far more important or deserving of such judgement than the "title" of the Holy Ghost if Jesus is the name of the one true God as you say? 

Furthermore, Jesus Himself taught us how to pray in The Lord's Prayer which begins " Our Father which art in heaven", if the "title" Father has no power and is wrong, then why did Christ teach such? 

Do you think a person errs when praying for something in Jesus' name when the prayer began with "Our Father"?

I would really like to see scriptural responses of how either of you interpret these things, not some link to another site or cut and paste.


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## Lowjack (Mar 25, 2010)

PWalls said:


> I know what "distinct" means and that is not how I worship. I do not imagine 3 different and distinct beings sitting around in Heaven (I guess He could do that if He wanted to).
> 
> He is with me as God the Holy Spirit to convict me of my sins and show me the way. He is with me as God the Son and Word as my saviour and light. He is with me as God the Father and Creator. Still just one entity.



I'm Glad to hear that, but the Original doctrine uses the word distinct and that is where I part ways with that terminology,God bless you.
Shalom


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## gtparts (Mar 25, 2010)

We recognize that God reveals Himself in three ways. Each is a 100% accurate representation. Nothing is missing or deficient, so He is not parts or pieces. He is complete in each way that He presents Himself. It is because of our inability to grasp the essence of who God is, the unlimited power and authority of His might , and His marvelous plan of reconciliation that He reveals Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. 

Even so, there are a number of groups and individuals  who reject the concept of a _triune_ God because they either misunderstand that the word, _triune_, does not indicate separate deities but one, whose character is revealed in three ways or they cling to the discourses of uninspired men who are or were too ignorant to see the nature of God as illustrated in the Bible. Whether the Bible uses the word _triune_ is immaterial. God is clearly revealed in Scripture as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.



For clarification, this is the potion of the most recently adopted  SBC _Baptist Faith and Message_ that deals with what Southern Baptists believe as a matter of faith, along with Scripture references for support.

II. God

There is one and only one living and true God. He is an intelligent, spiritual, and personal Being, the Creator, Redeemer, Preserver, and Ruler of the universe. God is infinite in holiness and all other perfections. God is all powerful and all knowing; and His perfect knowledge extends to all things, past, present, and future, including the future decisions of His free creatures. To Him we owe the highest love, reverence, and obedience. The eternal triune God reveals Himself to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence, or being.

A. God the Father

God as Father reigns with providential care over His universe, His creatures, and the flow of the stream of human history according to the purposes of His grace. He is all powerful, all knowing, all loving, and all wise. God is Father in truth to those who become children of God through faith in Jesus Christ. He is fatherly in His attitude toward all men.

Genesis 1:1; 2:7; Exodus 3:14; 6:2-3; 15:11ff.; 20:1ff.; Leviticus 22:2; Deuteronomy 6:4; 32:6; 1 Chronicles 29:10; Psalm 19:1-3; Isaiah 43:3,15; 64:8; Jeremiah 10:10; 17:13; Matthew 6:9ff.; 7:11; 23:9; 28:19; Mark 1:9-11; John 4:24; 5:26; 14:6-13; 17:1-8; Acts 1:7; Romans 8:14-15; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 4:6; Colossians 1:15; 1 Timothy 1:17; Hebrews 11:6; 12:9; 1 Peter 1:17; 1 John 5:7.

B. God the Son

Christ is the eternal Son of God. In His incarnation as Jesus Christ He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. Jesus perfectly revealed and did the will of God, taking upon Himself human nature with its demands and necessities and identifying Himself completely with mankind yet without sin. He honored the divine law by His personal obedience, and in His substitutionary death on the cross He made provision for the redemption of men from sin. He was raised from the dead with a glorified body and appeared to His disciples as the person who was with them before His crucifixion. He ascended into heaven and is now exalted at the right hand of God where He is the One Mediator, fully God, fully man, in whose Person is effected the reconciliation between God and man. He will return in power and glory to judge the world and to consummate His redemptive mission. He now dwells in all believers as the living and ever present Lord.

Genesis 18:1ff.; Psalms 2:7ff.; 110:1ff.; Isaiah 7:14; 53; Matthew 1:18-23; 3:17; 8:29; 11:27; 14:33; 16:16,27; 17:5; 27; 28:1-6,19; Mark 1:1; 3:11; Luke 1:35; 4:41; 22:70; 24:46; John 1:1-18,29; 10:30,38; 11:25-27; 12:44-50; 14:7-11; 16:15-16,28; 17:1-5, 21-22; 20:1-20,28; Acts 1:9; 2:22-24; 7:55-56; 9:4-5,20; Romans 1:3-4; 3:23-26; 5:6-21; 8:1-3,34; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:30; 2:2; 8:6; 15:1-8,24-28; 2 Corinthians 5:19-21; 8:9; Galatians 4:4-5; Ephesians 1:20; 3:11; 4:7-10; Philippians 2:5-11; Colossians 1:13-22; 2:9; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18; 1 Timothy 2:5-6; 3:16; Titus 2:13-14; Hebrews 1:1-3; 4:14-15; 7:14-28; 9:12-15,24-28; 12:2; 13:8; 1 Peter 2:21-25; 3:22; 1 John 1:7-9; 3:2; 4:14-15; 5:9; 2 John 7-9; Revelation 1:13-16; 5:9-14; 12:10-11; 13:8; 19:16.

C. God the Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, fully divine. He inspired holy men of old to write the Scriptures. Through illumination He enables men to understand truth. He exalts Christ. He convicts men of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment. He calls men to the Saviour, and effects regeneration. At the moment of regeneration He baptizes every believer into the Body of Christ. He cultivates Christian character, comforts believers, and bestows the spiritual gifts by which they serve God through His church. He seals the believer unto the day of final redemption. His presence in the Christian is the guarantee that God will bring the believer into the fullness of the stature of Christ. He enlightens and empowers the believer and the church in worship, evangelism, and service.

Genesis 1:2; Judges 14:6; Job 26:13; Psalms 51:11; 139:7ff.; Isaiah 61:1-3; Joel 2:28-32; Matthew 1:18; 3:16; 4:1; 12:28-32; 28:19; Mark 1:10,12; Luke 1:35; 4:1,18-19; 11:13; 12:12; 24:49; John 4:24; 14:16-17,26; 15:26; 16:7-14; Acts 1:8; 2:1-4,38; 4:31; 5:3; 6:3; 7:55; 8:17,39; 10:44; 13:2; 15:28; 16:6; 19:1-6; Romans 8:9-11,14-16,26-27; 1 Corinthians 2:10-14; 3:16; 12:3-11,13; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30; 5:18; 1 Thessalonians 5:19; 1 Timothy 3:16; 4:1; 2 Timothy 1:14; 3:16; Hebrews 9:8,14; 2 Peter 1:21; 1 John 4:13; 5:6-7; Revelation 1:10; 22:17.

If you get this far and still think that we worship 3 Gods, go back and reread the 1st paragraph in blue. It might be helpful to read the passages listed also,....... all, straight from the Bible.


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## Lowjack (Mar 25, 2010)

gtparts said:


> We recognize that God reveals Himself in three ways. Each is a 100% accurate representation. Nothing is missing or deficient, so He is not parts or pieces. He is complete in each way that He presents Himself. It is because of our inability to grasp the essence of who God is, the unlimited power and authority of His might , and His marvelous plan of reconciliation that He reveals Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
> 
> Even so, there are a number of groups and individuals  who reject the concept of a _triune_ God because they either misunderstand that the word, _triune_, does not indicate separate deities but one, whose character is revealed in three ways or they cling to the discourses of uninspired men who are or were too ignorant to see the nature of God as illustrated in the Bible. Whether the Bible uses the word _triune_ is immaterial. God is clearly revealed in Scripture as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
> 
> ...



Take away the Labels such as God The Son And God the Holy Spirit and then it will make more sense, as it will be speaking of one not 3.
Or include the Kingship Of The Father , The Power of Creator and the other things that God does and is and then we can get away of limiting God to a role of 3.


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## thedeacon (Mar 26, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> Take away the Labels such as God The Son And God the Holy Spirit and then it will make more sense, as it will be speaking of one not 3.
> Or include the Kingship Of The Father , The Power of Creator and the other things that God does and is and then we can get away of limiting God to a role of 3.



Maybe to you, and thats fine with me, but respectfull, some in here disagree with you and that doesn't mean we are wrong.


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## christianhunter (Mar 26, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> ch, his posts are too long for me. i didnt read any of them. i read one small part and it was about "fact". i simply made a comment about how unimportant fact is to this forum... i have seen you call articles from christian cults in the past and unite with false brethren, antichrists and pagans... i dont recall me stringing you up over it... i didnt even mention it.



Show me one post,one post where I united with anything antichrist!
Show me one post where I united with anyone unholy in any manner.I already know you can't,but let us see what and who you refer to as an anti christ.I really do not understand you,from some of your earlier posts,from months ago.It looks to me as if you have took a 180 degree turn.


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## christianhunter (Mar 26, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> What you said above is true,about people trying to figure out the mind of GOD.Then in a lot of situations we can look to HIS WORD,and find answers to questions that have always been there.Back up everything I say in this post,with THE WORD Of GOD.I'm no false teacher,and this is not my opinion,it is the facts from THE LORD HIMSELF.THE BIBLE tells us THE LORD made HIMSELF a little lower than the Angels,when HE walked the earth.Therefore some of HIS Glory stayed in Heaven.When HE Prayed,it was to THE FATHER.THE WORD Of GOD tells us of THE FATHER,THE SON,and THE HOLY SPIRIT.THE LORD HIMSELF was Filled with THE HOLY SPIRIT,and Prayed to THE FATHER on The Mountain,when HE was tempted.When HE was Baptized,THE FATHER spoke from Heaven,and THE HOLY SPIRIT descended as a dove.HE also said,"When you see ME,you have seen THE FATHER."
> Thomas called THE LORD JESUS,"My LORD and my GOD".Stephen who The Bible refers to as "a man full of Faith and THE HOLY SPIRIT".As he was being stoned,saw the heavens opened up,and proclaimed he saw THE LORD sitting at The Right Hand of THE FATHER.FATHER and SON in Heaven,and THE HOLY SPIRIT indwelling all believers.Who can explain this?
> 
> Man consists of three different parts body,soul,and spirit.He is still just one man.We have GOD THE FATHER,GOD THE SON,and GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT.The Book of Genesis says,"Let US create man in OUR Image."
> ...



I'm not blowing my own horn,and The Scriptures are paraphrased,but everything posted above is Scriptural.It all deals with THE FATHER,THE SON,and THE HOLY SPIRIT.(except for my own thoughts at the bottom.It speaks Volumes,because it is from THE WORD Of GOD,from whence it was taken.All of the Scripture in reference is pretty well known to most Christians.This is the simplest way I know to put it.THE ONE TRUE GOD,THE GOD of Abraham,Isaac,and Jacob.Presents HIMSELF to us in three ways.1.)Father in Heaven 2.)Savior who came to die and bore our sins(JESUS) 3.)Comforter who came to indwell the Believer,after THE SON ascended.(THE HOLY SPIRIT)
I believe once we admit we cannot fathom Spirit,so much more that we cannot comprehend GOD.We will realize HE cannot be contained in a realm.HE is OMNIPRESENT.ONE GOD in THE FATHER,THE SON,and THE HOLY SPIRIT.I cannot comprehend any better than some of the skeptics,but Praise be to GOD I fully accept it and Believe it with all of my heart,soul,and spirit.


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## thedeacon (Mar 26, 2010)

This is my very last post on the trinity and the end times on this forum. 

First I would like to say; CH I agree with you, we are pretty much in line with this except for one little point and that doesn't even matter and thanks for commenting on my post.

I could write with bigger words and I could be a little more eloquent, and sometimes I could be even be a little more understanding. For for this I do not apoligize its just the way I am. I am however working on the understanding part.

Sometimes I get the feeling that some are on here just to show of their knowledge, education, ability to write with twisted, riddle like compsitions that make me run for the "dickshunary". 

Knowledge and education does not make me flinch, wisdom does, along with love, compassion, HUMILILTY, meekness, thoughtfullness, patience etc, etc, etc, etc,.

I do not understand the mind of God, and I can't explain the three parts of the God Head the way I wish I could. I cannot understand the mind of God, and I feel there are some things that I think God does not even want us to know or understand. The one thing I do understand is the unity of the God Head.

God wants unity, he wants peace, he wants compassion, he wants people to be intimate with him, a closeness that we feel nowhere else on this earth. A spritual intimacy.

I don't agree with some of the post in this thread but I will read them, who knows I might learn something. But don't call me dumb for not agreeing with you because you know I am just thinking, right back at you.

I like the post on here that comes from the heart, not the ones that are copies and paste from the internet. I can go to the internet and prove most anything I want to. Please just give us your heart.

I have learned a lot from this thread, its made me think and I have come to one conclusion and I know you are just thinking, well it has taken you long enought to get to the point. Well here goes.

If we would worry half as much about how we are living in the present times we wouldn't have to worry nearly as much about the end of times. God has already decided on that and we can't change it. 

However with the help of God, AND the Holy Spirit we can change the wrong in our lives and get forgiveness because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior. "God in the flesh" "The perfect sacrifice"

I love God and I know he loves me, my desire is to grow in his grace gets greater every day. I am looking forward to the coming of Christ to take me home.

When I get to heaven I will understand all this, but think about it, what will it matter then? What I need to think about is today, how am I living my life?

Thats all I got to say about that.


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## christianhunter (Mar 26, 2010)

thedeacon said:


> This is my very last post on the trinity and the end times on this forum.
> 
> First I would like to say; CH I agree with you, we are pretty much in line with this except for one little point and that doesn't even matter and thanks for commenting on my post.
> 
> ...



AMEN my Brother,no one should be able to argue with that.


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