# Deliverance ministry?



## gordon 2 (Jan 2, 2016)

I know that deliverance(  the casting out of demonic spirits) ministry is practiced by some Christians groups. I know it has been abused by some-- but can some comment hear on the positive aspects of this ministry?

What are the traditional scripture sources for this kind of ministry? Traditionally casting out demonic spirits, or spirits that control people, is a ministry to individuals. But is there a scriptural basis that it might be used by God toward a community or  group of people, to a culture, to a nation etc...

Ideas?

What do you think of this?


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jan 3, 2016)

http://www.amazon.com/Principalities-Powers-Gordon-H-Powlison/dp/B009FMSY2A

Also

He Came to Set the Captives Free

The Beautiful Side of Evil

and Blumhardt's Battle.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 5, 2016)

2Co 10:3  For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:


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## NE GA Pappy (Jan 5, 2016)

People have the wrong idea about all this warfare stuff.   They don't understand line of authority and why Satan tempted Adam and Eve to start with.


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## Israel (Jan 7, 2016)

NE GA Pappy said:


> People have the wrong idea about all this warfare stuff.   They don't understand line of authority and why Satan tempted Adam and Eve to start with.


Do you mean like "If he could engage them, he had already accomplished his purpose?"


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## gemcgrew (Jan 7, 2016)

Israel said:


> Do you mean like "If he could engage them, he had already accomplished his purpose?"


As in "All things serve the purpose for which they were created?"


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## Israel (Jan 8, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> As in "All things serve the purpose for which they were created?"


Yes!
"Stranger danger! Stranger danger!"


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## BT Charlie (Jan 13, 2016)

Thanks for providing the link, Gordon.  Paul unquestionably relates life in Christ to warfare, both internal and external. 

 I hate this body of death, and appreciated the speaker's points on dealing with personal sin. 

 At times, I think I am deserving of spiritual court martial ... cowardice, desertion, maybe treason. Deriliction, unquestionably.  Jesus won the victory and provided me the freedom and spiritual power to be obedient.  So what's so hard about being obedient? It was just a State of the Union address...

Aggghh.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 13, 2016)

BT Charlie said:


> Thanks for providing the link, Gordon.  Paul unquestionably relates life in Christ to warfare, both internal and external.
> 
> I hate this body of death, and appreciated the speaker's points on dealing with personal sin.
> 
> ...



Far from me to teach on anything, except where the church directs me, I can only suggest what works for me and possibly where you and I have "sin" issues. 

Sundry spirits might have a hold of our emotions. That does not mean we should not have emotions, but rather that we are not in control of them. If my assumption is that the Pres.' Union Address got you emotionally in the pickle barrel-- than perhaps I can offer what I have and I wish I had.  I wish I had more control of my emotions.

So here goes: When my emotional life with God comes first all other issues in life that might get me emotionally messed up are subdued. The spirits that hammer at me are put in their places.

Or in other words God knows what is the real pursuit of our happiness or put again another way he knows what messes with us. 

Now I'm gona use me as an example not because it is a shining example of what is smart, but because I'm not.

 I know and God knows that I don't do well with personal debt, it gets me down and drags me down. Yet one of my pursuit of happiness is my gun collection. I have a gun collection of perhaps 50 firearms each marking a period in my life not unlike a notch on firearm indicating how many big game animals were harvested. I really enjoy shooting and hunting and collecting. 

Now left to myself my pursuit of happiness might be to acquire another firearm for my collection-- and THERE ARE MAY OUT THERE THAT WOULD FIT RIGHT IN!

But that is my out look on happiness. Yet God reminds me. Hey Gordo. So your happiness is getting rid of your debt balance or a stainless steel  Ruger GP 100 with 4.2 in barrel.... OH MY MOUTH IS WATERING AS i TYPE THIS!!!!!! Happy! Happy! Happy!

But wait! God says in a very kind way, Gordo?, Gordo?, Gordo? Who do you love more Me or a GP100? You can have me anything, anywhere free! That new, shiny GP 100 ss 4.2in barrel, 357, ( God's mouth waters also, he likes Rugers and He also imagines sliding the cartriges in the cylinder)...OH! OH! will  that firearm further your debt! Gordo? What are you going to do?


My friend I find when I stay in God's grace, asking him for the forgiveness of my sins through the ministry of the church, when I say out loud my sins for which I am guilty, when I name them and identify them out loud  and confess them and repent-- God shows up and quizzes me on the pursuits of happiness and it don't matter what others have  to say about it from the boasting of the strong or the lamentations of the weak...emotionally I have more control than if I left the spirits of the world pepper me with buck shot and more debt.

One's emotional life in Christ is a mighty power... It guards me from most all other relationships where my emotions might be played with. 

"The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed."


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## BT Charlie (Jan 14, 2016)

I like your approach, Gordo. Many thanks.  I agree Jesus is Lord and Savior and should be top of mind, always.  My human nature -- ME ME ME -- wars with the Spirit led focus!  

The speaker also spoke of demonic influences apart from us, in a territorial or geographic or jurisdictional construct.  I found that interesting and am interested in your view and others' views on this aspect of spiritual warfare.

Gem and Brother Israel were talking above my Mensa score so I couldn't ride their thought train.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 15, 2016)

BT Charlie said:


> I like your approach, Gordo. Many thanks.  I agree Jesus is Lord and Savior and should be top of mind, always.  My human nature -- ME ME ME -- wars with the Spirit led focus!
> 
> The speaker also spoke of demonic influences apart from us, in a territorial or geographic or jurisdictional construct.  I found that interesting and am interested in your view and others' views on this aspect of spiritual warfare.
> 
> Gem and Brother Israel were talking above my Mensa score so I couldn't ride their thought train.



Yes. I found the idea of demonic influences in a territorial, geographic construct interesting. And I must admit that it is the main reason I posted this in the first place, but I have been so busy that I have not followed up on this. But I will. 

If I recall correctly, some primitive cultures knew places to be inhabited by demons or unwholesome spirits and this was  accounted as superstition by some ( more modern cultures). I don't know that this is the same thing.  I must follow up.

Gem and Brother Isreal, may the force be with them, are fond of riding trains in airplanes and horses in automobiles. I have an uncle like them and I must admit I can be on a bicycle going the opposite direction of the chair I'm sitting in.


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## BT Charlie (Jan 15, 2016)

LOL.

So looking at Matthew 8:28-34.


Gadarenes, a gentile region south and east of the Sea of Galilee, is the general geographic area where Jesus was met by the two men possessed by demons and fiercely blocking passage. 

The men apparently were coming out of the tombs there.  Is that a further indication of geographic limitation?

The demons recognized Jesus and asked, Son of God, have you come to torment us before the time (demons know Jesus, know what will occur to them, and seem to have a sense of when the appointed time is, or at least that this was happening before the appointed time whenever it may be).

For some reason not stated, the demons begged Jesus that if He cast the demons out of the two men then send them to a herd of pigs, which Mark says numbered about 2,000.  

Jesus said simply, "Go."

And the demons did go into the pigs, which then ran into the sea and drowned.  I guess all the demons in the two men indwelt all the pigs.

But was that the destruction of the demons? It does not say that the death of the porkers also caused the destruction of the evil demon spirits.  Can humans kill evil spirits, or another thought, can an evil spirit even die? Is this asking how does man kill the already dead, or undead?

Nor does the passage indicate that the evil spirits stayed in the sea, stayed in the region, or just what became of them.  Their porcine hosts were killed and the community was very upset with Jesus.

Are those evil demon spirits still around awaiting the time Jesus will cast them ultimately into the lake of fire? And if these particular demons are still around, are they limited to existing at the tombs, or within the Gadarenes region, the sea where the pigs died, or what? 

The speaker in your link in part construes this story as demonstrating the limited territorial authority of certain demons, which in turn he suggests we can use as a spiritual weapon for spiritual warfare.  He provides an example in which he diagnosed a woman being influenced by a geographically limited demon, which had to leave the woman and return to its jurisdiction when confronted on that point.

I don't recall a passage in the Bible that directly says if a demon is AWOL and man determines such that the man can make the demon leave by confronting the demon with this fact.  "Go, because you have no right to be here." So while I find the topic interesting and I am open to learn, I still see dimly.

I tend to read all this as saying it's the name of Jesus, the Blood of the Lamb, the authority that our Lord and Savior conferred upon repentent believers ... all that ... is what seems to be the source and means of the power that casts out demons.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 15, 2016)

BT Charlie said:


> LOL.
> 
> So looking at Matthew 8:28-34.
> 
> ...



I have more, lot more, questions than answers on this topic. And I must go on my Christ given instincts more than anything else right now.

The way I'm assimilating all this now is that for the Christian the old man is dead. The old man that once was kicked around by sin is dead. But the demonic spirits that once kicked him around are perhaps not. Satan, along with his kin spirits is still very active with his powers in many areas (principalities) of in the world. And he can kick around the born again individual, the Christian. 


For example(s) the demonic spirits of coveting, of theft, of deception, murder and greed, are at work in many areas of the world, as is the demonic spirit of racism. These are indeed more noticeable in some areas compared to others.( Or in other words different demonic spirits seem to have locals and areas and these areas don't seem to be determined by people prone to turn to the occult or superstition at first glance. ( I say this because people seem to have a first instinct to id demonic spirits with the occult or where occult practices occur.) The land and the people seem to be possessed by these spirits where the occult is not practiced--but the land and the people are victims of spirits, demonic spirits  of differing talents, they ministering differently in different locals so as to keep people in bondage.

So which came first, sin or demonic oppression? Which the egg, which the reptile? 

So, "what seems to be the source and means of the power that casts out demons."?

Suggestion. A power is fought with power. A principality is opposed by a principality. A spirit stands or stands down to a spirit.

This love from the platform of our Kingdom, although it permits me to see you, I must mostly be blind to, especially when looking close to home, because for all the life in me I can't name who is devouring my people? It is perhaps easy to see the ogres on your estates, but darn I don't seem to be able to see mine. And I know they are there!

I will admit to anyone, on this topic, I really don't know for sure if I know what I'm talking about. So if someone has ideas.... scripture.... I'm all ears and eyes... and heart.


Last point for now... ancient Isreal had to be purged now and then. I might suggest that today our purges are confession and repentance or asking for forgiveness with a correct heart and receiving it. Now we know this works for individuals who have laid to rest the old man. Does it work for locals, cultures, peoples, nations, continents, archipelagos etc?


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## gemcgrew (Jan 16, 2016)

BT Charlie said:


> I tend to read all this as saying it's the name of Jesus, the Blood of the Lamb, the authority that our Lord and Savior conferred upon repentent believers ... all that ... is what seems to be the source and means of the power that casts out demons.


This is why we preach the whole counsel of God. Any demonic influences are in the mind of man. We proclaim Truth and refute fallacies. When the Light shines into the darkness of the mind of man, this is by the power of God.

"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine."


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## Israel (Jan 16, 2016)

A sister posted (on FB) some things in regards to the particular  account related by Charlie. This was a few days ago and has been with me since. 
Truth, and our relationship to it, and in it, has been kinda ringing that gong inside me...and in some measure, leaving me like a gong...trembling. My thoughts have gone to a myriad of things, sometimes so far (to me) in periphery as to appear a bizarre and patchwork quilt...yet I see in them a weaving by a familiar hand.

"and darkness was upon the face of the deep"

Gem, above, describes the work of light to pierce the darkness, and by whom this light originates...and is.

"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."…

The truth comes from a place not susceptible to lies, to a place that can be subject to them, but in order to bring that susceptible...to that place "un-susceptible". What we call, perhaps the _incarnation_.

Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.…


"That through death..."

What men call "Stockholm Syndrome" is probably something we are not unfamiliar with. In it we owe all the fabric of "our own lives".

'If any one doth come unto me, and doth not hate his own father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brothers, and sisters, and yet even his own life, he is not able to be my disciple;

I don't mean to belabor with scripture and striving to support "some point" of _my own._

We all have our appointed battles...and triumphs to know through our Lord.
I am being convinced daily what each part knows in victory supplies all parts in Spirit according to the measure of God for the fullness of the whole of the body.
And Christ alone is our wholeness.

I am also convinced that when Peter was brought to utter "be it far from thee, Lord" and received what seems the harshest rebuke of all, it was because our Lord Jesus had already heard these words before, and having already consigned them the place they were to take in his "dying to them" by his recognition of their origin through the Spirit, and continue therefore in the Spirit of life, of which he has been made to us in his being...that we too, as Peter, may be saved.

There is no making friends with the Dragon. He has none.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 16, 2016)

I don't know? ( An expression for I'm thinking about something...). 

I'd like to think that when Paul said , Foolish, Soandsos, who has bewitched you?" He, Paul, was having an off day. But I don't.

I'd like to think that Zacharias, that little Soandso, was the same man before the day Jesus supped and slept in his house as he was the day following and that something in him was chased away. And I seem to.

 What man by himself can change his whole makeup in one night being the mule of so many spirits during one day,  and being the lamb of but one the other? 

Jesus sat with sinners and their demons complained? I don't know...?


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## Israel (Jan 16, 2016)

When I spoke of that bizarre patchwork, it included this. I saw it fit, at least to what I perceive as this extent. A man, not confessing Christ (that I know of), is moved to write and perform (probably hundreds of times) a whole song about something. If to no one else it speaks...it speaks to me. And because I know I am "not that man" it may only be the peculiar experience of two men...and I would be remiss to try and ascribe it to the experience of all. Yet...it "seems" to speak to some...even if not in the same way it speaks to me...for at least "some" others have seen fit to share it...either by recording or buying it to "popularity". 
I cannot help but wonder...does anyone else, has anyone else, ever had what I believe this man describes as his experience? 
But, before I leave open too broad an "interpretation", and am willing to look pedantic...this is what I hear.
I hear a man...going about his "life"...when suddenly a knowing, a perception comes to him...of a something, a perspective in which the whole of his common life...so familiar, so "his own" suddenly appears in another light, of another knowing...as something now revealed as so totally foreign to him...and that from the whole of this "other perspective", now made real to him...he is even brought to see a course he has followed in that commonness that causes him to cry "my God, what have I done?" An illusion is shattered and he touches a reality of knowing from which he cannot escape. Where previously "real" things are exposed as mere shadows.
Talking Heads – Once In A Lifetime Lyrics
And you may find yourself living in a shotgun shack 
And you may find yourself in another part of the world 
And you may find yourself behind the wheel of a large automobile 
And you may find yourself in a beautiful house, with a beautiful wife 
And you may ask yourself 
Well...How did I get here? 

Letting the days go by
Let the water hold me down 
Letting the days go by
Water flowing underground 
Into the blue again
After the money's gone 
Once in a lifetime
Water flowing underground 

And you may ask yourself 
How do I work this? 
And you may ask yourself 
Where is that large automobile? 
And you may tell yourself 
This is not my beautiful house 
And you may tell yourself 
This is not my beautiful wife 

Letting the days go by
Let the water hold me down 
Letting the days go by
Water flowing underground 
Into the blue again
After the money's gone 
Once in a lifetime
Water flowing underground 

Same as it ever was... 
Same as it ever was... 
Same as it ever was... 
Same as it ever was... 
Same as it ever was... 
Same as it ever was... 
Same as it ever was... 
Same as it ever was... 

Water dissolving...and water removing 
There is water at the bottom of the ocean 
Under the water, carry the water at the bottom of the ocean 
Remove the water at the bottom of the ocean 

Letting the days go by
Let the water hold me down 
Letting the days go by
Water flowing underground 
Into the blue again
Into the silent water 
Under the rocks and stones
There is water underground 

Letting the days go by
Let the water hold me down 
Letting the days go by
Water flowing underground 
Into the blue again
After the money's gone 
Once in a lifetime
Water flowing underground 

And you may ask yourself 
What is that beautiful house? 
And you may ask yourself 
Where does that highway go to? 
And you may ask yourself 
Am I right?...Am I wrong? 
And you may say to yourself yourself 
My God!...What have I done?! 

Letting the days go by
Let the water hold me down 
Letting the days go by
Water flowing underground 
Into the blue again
Into the silent water 
Under the rocks and stones
There is water underground 

Letting the days go by
Let the water hold me down 
Letting the days go by
Water flowing underground 
Into the blue again
After the money's gone 
Once in a lifetime
Water flowing underground 

Same as it ever was... 
Same as it ever was... 
Same as it ever was... 
Look where my hand was 
Time isn't holding us 
Time isn't after us 
Same as it ever was... 
Same as it ever was... 
Same as it ever was... 
Same as it ever was... 
Same as it ever was... 
Same as it ever was... 
Same as it ever was... 
Yeah, the twister comes 
Here comes the twister 
Same as it ever was...

Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. "And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.…

If, in a desire for the true, the real, the waters of all origin from which we take our notion of water...causes a man to look as this man may to some, I'm persuaded it's OK. Who can resist what LIFE does?

But when David returned to bless his household, Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David and said, "How the king of Israel distinguished himself today! He uncovered himself today in the eyes of his servants' maids as one of the foolish ones shamelessly uncovers himself!" So David said to Michal, "It was before the LORD, who chose me above your father and above all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the LORD, over Israel; therefore I will celebrate before the LORD. "I will be more lightly esteemed than this and will be humble in my own eyes, but with the maids of whom you have spoken, with them I will be distinguished."

Once in a lifetime. A man exploded my reality, and there is no going back.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 16, 2016)

Hum.

 What is up is down and what is down is up? If so, then how is this to minister in the great commission? While it is true that we die and live in/with Christ, that which was down is now up and that which was up is down, yet  who's ministry is it to do this ( work) once the right side is up?:


"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Who is the we and what is the wrestle? Are principalities places with borders as is our's the Kingdom of our Prince? Who rules the darkness of this world which the Holy Spirit so easily shows you now? Is there such a thing as spiritual wickedness? What high places? Do these high places still have a hold even if we are to Christ? When I read Paul, I seem to think so?


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## Israel (Jan 16, 2016)

Is not the wrestle within? 

I can only confess my own failings and weaknesses, but I find a particular point at which I so often stick, but it is not until after the victory is revealed that it becomes plain..."Point of Law".
Till then I carry, unawares till revealed, how much of a "this for this" and "that for that" thinking.

I think at this moment of our Lord's word to Peter. "Satan has demanded to sift you as wheat...BUT...I have prayed for you..."

It would be hard for me to say anything more without sounding as though I could judge Peter. 
Boastful, arrogant, willing to advise the Lord, so smart and clever in his own eyes...but I don't speak here of Peter.
But...someone fought through the just desserts, the legal demands...that place where this man, put on the balance...is found so poor in weight.
Thousands of years of stories about our "christian heroes"...but they knew what they were, what dirt they had come from and how all was, and is owed to the One who transplanted them. 
The One who never mentions indebtedness to them. 
And what was done to lift them from their soil of once looking up to gold...to now looking down upon it.

And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Oh, what loss is found when we seek to measure our own strength.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 16, 2016)

Israel said:


> Is not the wrestle within?
> 
> I can only confess my own failings and weaknesses, but I find a particular point at which I so often stick, but it is not until after the victory is revealed that it becomes plain..."Point of Law".
> Till then I carry, unawares till revealed, how much of a "this for this" and "that for that" thinking.
> ...



So it is Christ I agree.  Yet did not Paul cast out demons? 

"Paul, having become greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, "I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her." And it came out that very hour. "


So are you saying that possibly demonic spirits have no regional strongholds. That the slavery due to sin being cast out by Christ, say by man being born again through Christ, that this for the individual  is the remedy to all injuries that would or could infect and inflame a place and making it rich ground for the Lord of the flies?


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## BT Charlie (Jan 16, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> This is why we preach the whole counsel of God. Any demonic influences are in the mind of man. We proclaim Truth and refute fallacies. When the Light shines into the darkness of the mind of man, this is by the power of God.
> 
> "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine."



Gem, thanks.

The demons that came out of the two men ... Do you interpret scripture as saying those were not literal demons independent of human thought?  

I agree our flesh and nature can contrive Sasquatch, aliens and some form of evil spirits.  But I tend to believe as Gordo that there are demons in the spiritual realms, the principalities, the heavenlies.  I can't square that with the statement that all demons derive from human thought. Help me out some more, please.


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## BT Charlie (Jan 16, 2016)

Israel said:


> Is not the wrestle within?
> 
> I can only confess my own failings and weaknesses, but I find a particular point at which I so often stick, but it is not until after the victory is revealed that it becomes plain..."Point of Law".
> Till then I carry, unawares till revealed, how much of a "this for this" and "that for that" thinking.
> ...




Isn't the wrestle both within and without?  

I agree we could all sandbar on honest recognition of what we find when we seek to measure our own strength.  Not as elegantly as you've laid it out but sandbar just the same.

But Paul did not talk of our strength in laying out our 
struggle that is not with flesh and blood.  

Dying to our very selves, gasping and sputtering like weak nozzles maybe, we only then unsteadily point the unwavering and triumphant power, light and truth of Christ and the cross into manifest darkness and the spirits that dwell there?


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## BT Charlie (Jan 16, 2016)

And from a broken, repentant posture ... Face down on our knees ... We invoke the strength of all of heaven?


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## gemcgrew (Jan 17, 2016)

BT Charlie said:


> Gem, thanks.
> 
> The demons that came out of the two men ... Do you interpret scripture as saying those were not literal demons independent of human thought?
> 
> I agree our flesh and nature can contrive Sasquatch, aliens and some form of evil spirits.  But I tend to believe as Gordo that there are demons in the spiritual realms, the principalities, the heavenlies.  I can't square that with the statement that all demons derive from human thought. Help me out some more, please.


I do believe that they are literal demons. I also believe that they are dependent upon God actively causing them to exist... and this for the purpose of Grace, which is clearly seen in the referenced Scripture.


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## Israel (Jan 17, 2016)

BT Charlie said:


> Isn't the wrestle both within and without?
> 
> I agree we could all sandbar on honest recognition of what we find when we seek to measure our own strength.  Not as elegantly as you've laid it out but sandbar just the same.
> 
> ...



Yes. Just as Jesus bequeathed his triumph "Be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."

I sensed being referred to David was a necessary mention (for to tell the truth my recollection was faulty...specifically at this point "And Satan stood up...") for I would have been content otherwise with my recollecting along the lines of "And it entered the mind of David to number the people"

The point, to me, being, in the context of powers and principalities, that one man's acquiescence is, or can be, a calamity extending far beyond his own defeat. (Or, we could look to Adam)

In countermeasure we see Jesus, resisting, and the benefits accruing to many by his conquest.

So, yes, the battle is both "within and without" to the extent of their ramifications, but as Gem had said, it must first be confronted in a mind and by a mind, and though real to the extent they are allowed to hold sway (look at the concretions abounding!) they are fruitless against the mind of truth.
To speak of Paul and his relentless banging the drum of faith and grace, I cannot help but believe the things mentioned in Philipians, all those things upon which it might appear a man could stake a place, take a stand "Hebrew of Hebrews, etc.." were previously confronted as they were presented to him, specifically (I believe) in and as temptations, where to all but the Lord, it would be of utmost reason to take a stand. He had already dealt with them, consigned them their place "to him" as nothing, and from that triumph over them also bequeathed much in the way of hope and comfort to the Church.

How many reasonings must be conquered for reason to be seen.
As to concretions abounding..."ideas"...made manifest, material constructions born of words whispered to a mind susceptible, and shown then, "willing"...we face them daily...even as Gordon has said (if I read the implication rightly) that even "believers" must still deal with them. I pass a building upon which these words are written
"St. Paul's Church" or St. James or Peter, or a declaration of some denominational devotion, and men may nod and say (some perhaps even spiritual to an extent)..."C'mon man, you know what we really mean!"

It sounds so reasonable to want to honor certain, to exalt certain, to show a respect of certain...but if, in the doing, we deny those very things of which those "certain" warned, of which those certain found as dung, building up things of which certain labored in truth to show in their own bodies as nothing at all by consigning their own temples in devotion to the Lord as nothing more fit than for death in Him...

These are, of course, merely the painfully obvious.
The whole of a structure, seemingly immense in size with tentacles and foundations proclaiming "We are from the beginning" this world of papier mache has a mind behind it. And it will meet each of us in ours proclaiming itself the "real" that cannot be ascended above, a cold stone sarcophagal ceiling...but we are raised higher.
The good fight of faith is on. It's the only good fight there is.


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## BT Charlie (Jan 17, 2016)

Gem and Israel, thanks! 

The finding...the being ... self sandbarred on dung, on piles of filthy rags ... as God Himself ordained in love for His purpose... yet so broken that we are free in utter poverty, frailty that light and truth pour from the cavernous fractures ... for others. 

Oh how He loves us, man.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 17, 2016)

Ok. So I have been hunting. 

It is said by some that demonic spirits seem to concentrate in locals in lieu of other. And that in Christ's days on earth they seemed to be concentrated  especially in Galilee regards Palestine. And of course in the pagan lands where Jesus ministered to the possessed.

I have found a definition for demonic the word being (daimonizesthai) or a root definition with states that demonic is simply "to be subject to an appointed fate".

Now this gets me to when Jesus healed a paralytic, the one that his dud friends lowered from the roof of where Jesus was staying.

What was wanted by the sick person and his friends-families- people with compassion etc- was healing, and most likely communion with God perhaps, but Jesus did not heal him at first. Jesus said, "Your sins are forgiven!"


Now are the consequences of sin subject "to an appointed fate?" And if so what does this all mean as far a "soul beings" or people can understand--as opposed to being devine mystery?

And returning to topic...could it happen that some areas are subject to "appointed fate" different from other places? And if so. Why? If not so. Why not?


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## gordon 2 (Jan 17, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> I do believe that they are literal demons. I also believe that they are dependent upon God actively causing them to exist... and this for the purpose of Grace, which is clearly seen in the referenced Scripture.



This is interesting. I have read some of those references... but I have not concentrated prayer on them so far. Thanks.

Yet Jesus says concerning us: " "In my name they shall cast out devils: they shall speak with new tongues. They shall take up serpents; and if they shall drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them: they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover" (Mark 16:17-18).

What gives? Why this prophecy and why purposely causing demons to exist? How can this be?


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## gordon 2 (Jan 17, 2016)

Israel said:


> Yes. Just as Jesus bequeathed his triumph "Be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."
> 
> I sensed being referred to David was a necessary mention (for to tell the truth my recollection was faulty...specifically at this point "And Satan stood up...") for I would have been content otherwise with my recollecting along the lines of "And it entered the mind of David to number the people"
> 
> ...



"The good fight of faith is on. It's the only good fight there is."

I have a biological brother who has a learning disability. He has a hard time to read-- because sentences have textures for him which are out of the ordinary. I am always amazed How his fighting goes. The barb wire of scripture for him is not concentrated on the written page--it comes out of the faces of people directly into his eyes and ears. He does well.

Funny how that works.


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## gemcgrew (Jan 17, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> This is interesting. I have read some of those references... but I have not concentrated prayer on them so far. Thanks.
> 
> Yet Jesus says concerning us: " "In my name they shall cast out devils: they shall speak with new tongues. They shall take up serpents; and if they shall drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them: they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover" (Mark 16:17-18).
> 
> What gives? Why this prophecy and why purposely causing demons to exist? How can this be?


Colossians 1 tells us that it is God that sustains them and that they exist for Christ.

Purpose? Power, Glory, Praise etc.

Why was the man born blind in John 9? ..."but that the works of God should be made manifest in him".

What was the purpose of the possessed man in Mark 5?


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## gordon 2 (Jan 17, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> Colossians 1 tells us that it is God that sustains them and that they exist for Christ.
> 
> Purpose? Power, Glory, Praise etc.
> 
> ...




Thanks. I see yes. This is interesting.

 So when Paul says to let the man, ... " 
I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.…

1 Corinthians 5:5

Is this what we are talking about or something else? Or is Paul simply saying this man is not following Christ, so hopefully God will judge him as a gentile and hopefully his spirit will be saved in the day of the Lord-- which I take to mean Judgement? Or is he meaning that Satan will injure the flesh of this man so that hopefully this very thing will force him to consider God - Christ? If this latter is the case...it would be also the reason why physical death or death of the flesh part of the soul must be so that man considers God? Maybe I'm running away from the topic here. It seems that demonic forces are loose to push us to Christ? They are ministers? Can't be. Must be another explanation.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 17, 2016)

Ok so I have inquired at a very good source. I actually went to someone in my local church-- which means I follow the advise I usually give others... funny how that works.... 

Apparently the answer to the question, do demons have geographic homes is , "NO"! They like the warm bodies of sinners. Man's life is a nice place for them compared to their normal nature.  They are parasites. They operate in gangs. They reason legalistically. They need souls, but souls don't need them. 

If they appear to be geographically located, they can easily be carried off, like any other parasite, if that population-culture moves. They are not fixed to borders, but to the physical nature of people.

Soooo....if this is correct... it would explain why demons would request to go into swine, rather than return to he CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored they are from. It would explain that they would complain that their "time or end is not come." 

Soooo our war is with spiritual high places. Theirs. 

Anyone else what to add... or ... take way from?

I understand also that some people are not very comfortable with this subject---to my surprise.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 17, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> I do believe that they are literal demons. I also believe that they are dependent upon God actively causing them to exist... and this for the purpose of Grace, which is clearly seen in the referenced Scripture.



Is it possible for someone today to have literal demons dwelling within their bodies?
I do understand that God would have to actively cause them to exist.


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## gemcgrew (Jan 18, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Is it possible for someone today to have literal demons dwelling within their bodies?
> I do understand that God would have to actively cause them to exist.


I believe so. Whether they possess the body or the mind is not a hill to die on for me.


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## gemcgrew (Jan 18, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> It seems that demonic forces are loose to push us to Christ?


Where or who else could the man in Mark 5 go to for relief?


gordon 2 said:


> They are ministers?


Ministers of false belief.


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## Israel (Jan 18, 2016)

There are very few places where Paul uses the "what if". Maybe this is the only one, but that doesn't relegate it to mere speculation. But the matter of wrath and the presence of what we perceive as "evil", at least according to this account, understanding, is surely meant to hearten the believer as he faces what appears the "conundrum"...and, it surely does so.

Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,…

If the purpose of a thing is to "bring" us to the recognition of another thing...that is the end purpose, an end...a thing beyond which is "no other purpose"...in other words...a place where "this thing" is with no "reason" to its being except it is.

We are from a place, perhaps (to us) where "such and such is "because"...and then follows the "reason" the such and such thing is. But God? The One that is not "because"...but is, and actually gives the "because" to everything else, if...it is to be.

But we are being delivered from that place where thus is all thinking. The true is not "because"...of something else, owing its being on behalf of service to reveal something else. The true is the end of all the becauses.

So then, everything purposed to be to fulfill "a" purpose is to bring us to purity of purpose...and something of which I dare say I know little...but I believe in Him. The Purposer...of all.


And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,


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## gordon 2 (Jan 18, 2016)

Maybe your right brother Isreal. But somehow I don't get that my relationship with God is one where He knows every hair on my head and much of my Father's life is a mystery--because if Christ is my example,  then my Lord can't be mysterious.

I fall back on scripture perhaps not in the legal sense of reading it, but in the prayerful sense. I read this and wonder about "nothing hidden" and "all in all".


16"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed; but he puts it on a lampstand, so that those who come in may see the light. 17"For nothing is hidden that will not become evident, nor anything secret that will not be known and come to light. 18"So take care how you listen; for whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has shall be taken away from him."

 Also as I am typing this I'm listening to Donald Trump addressing an audience at Liberty University ( subtitled to the Evangelicals).  From a nursing perspective ( assessment) the man is a great orator on the manic side of the bipolar spectrum or has language-(speech) and train of thought "speeded up" in the last few yrs?


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## Israel (Jan 18, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> What gives? Why this prophecy and why purposely causing demons to exist? How can this be?



I guess I saw that...

and responded as to things caused to exist "to a purpose"...and His children whom are to Him, his own.

If we believe Him, what may be an issue to others, no matter what another may care to "make of them"...they are to be where He has assigned them relative to us, beneath. 
Is it anywhere appropriate we be subject to "created things"? There is no reviling necessary (Not that any have implied it) nor anything other than our attention to order. 
They already know their place, what they fear is that we would know ours...and so fear they share, and bluster, and any and all deceits to distract from the person of Jesus Christ.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 18, 2016)

Israel said:


> I guess I saw that...
> 
> and responded as to things caused to exist "to a purpose"...and His children whom are to Him, his own.
> 
> ...



Amen.


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## Israel (Jan 19, 2016)

How unlike we are in form, is the serpent.
Being, given both, is granted.
But nature of being so different.
Is it the clay of both where the cunning is found? If found at all?
More in common there held than in truth of distinction?
Who, or what...makes one to differ from another?


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## gordon 2 (Jan 19, 2016)

Israel said:


> How unlike we are in form, is the serpent.
> Being, given both, is granted.
> But nature of being so different.
> Is it the clay of both where the cunning is found? If found at all?
> ...



There once was the man of Lisbon
Who worried for his children
Because he had not made them in vain.

The children of Lisbon were not all the same.
Some liked the sun, some stayed, some chased the Main.
So some ventured far away.

There once was the man of Lisbon
Who worried for his children
Because he had not made them in vain.

There once was a mom from Chesapeake Virginia 
The mother of a lot, said to her Lord,  some say she prayed," Sit on it Pop."
Because he had not made them in vain.


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