# When Christians are losing the argument



## atlashunter (Jun 7, 2018)

Name something a christian says when they're losing an argument to an atheist.


----------



## ky55 (Jun 7, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Name something a christian says when they're losing an argument to an atheist.



Everything they say, because they always lose the argument.


----------



## atlashunter (Jun 7, 2018)

Prove that god _doesn't_ exist!


----------



## atlashunter (Jun 7, 2018)

It's not a religion, it's a relationship.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Jun 7, 2018)

"I guess it's just a matter of faith." But in actuality they aren't wrong because the whole concept of the religion is believing (having faith in) what they think happened before they were even born, and cannot be proven false.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 7, 2018)

You have to be a Christian to understand.....
Oh, those Christians are not REAL Christians.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 7, 2018)

Make a comment about an Atheists point (followed by laughing emoji) without ever offering a comment to refute.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 7, 2018)

It takes more faith to believe that Something came from NOTHING than it takes to believe in a god.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 7, 2018)

If I am wrong I lose nothing, but if you are wrong....


----------



## bullethead (Jun 7, 2018)

NOTHING is eternal!!!


.......Except.....


----------



## bullethead (Jun 7, 2018)

EVERYTHING has a cause!

....Except....


----------



## atlashunter (Jun 7, 2018)

You're taking it out of context.


----------



## ky55 (Jun 7, 2018)

Something terrible has happened to you that has caused you to be angry at God.


----------



## ky55 (Jun 7, 2018)

I’ll pray for you, or....
You’ll get yours in the end.


----------



## ky55 (Jun 7, 2018)

You think you are smarter than God.


----------



## MiGGeLLo (Jun 7, 2018)

I prayed that my great aunt's sister's eye would be healed once, and after her surgery it worked perfectly! See! Prayer works and God exists!


----------



## hummerpoo (Jun 7, 2018)

The shame in losing a point in a stupid argument comes from participating in a stupid argument.


----------



## ambush80 (Jun 7, 2018)

Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro claim that Sam Harris uses the "Logic" that came from God to try to disprove God.  

No logic without God.


----------



## ambush80 (Jun 7, 2018)

No morals without God.

Atheists can't talk about morality without a supernatural originator of morals.


----------



## ambush80 (Jun 7, 2018)

"You were never _REALLY_ saved."


----------



## ambush80 (Jun 7, 2018)

"He will open your eyes if He wants to."  Contrary to the 
"You can have the gift of faith if you ask for it."


----------



## Spotlite (Jun 7, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Prove that god _doesn't_ exist!


Well........it is valid because you can’t. And that’s what’s keeping you up at night 

BTW, go look up the definition of claim. If you’re going to stake the claim that God doesn’t exist, back it up with evidence if you want to prove it. Play by your rules  you said I had to have evidence to back up my claim that he does exist 

I’f you’re not 100% positive then you don’t know.


----------



## ambush80 (Jun 7, 2018)

ky55 said:


> I’ll pray for you, or....
> You’ll get yours in the end.



This one is particularly amusing because it really exposes what's going on in their minds.  They want to feel superior though they will say "It's not my will.  It's God's.  I'm just telling you what it says".  They're saying "Then you'll know I was right".

When I discuss in here I only want the believers to admit that their belief isn't logical.  To those that say "I understand my belief isn't logical but I just believe it" I really have no more argument.  I can't make people be rational especially if they know that they're not already.

But if I were a believer and I knew these people who I know and love are going to suffer for eternity I would claw my eyes out and pull out my hair.  I would beg them every day to repent.  I would never say "Just wait. You'll see."  Imagine saying that to someone you loved if they said they were going to light themselves on fire.  I would tackle them to the ground and I would scream in their faces until I was hoarse, begging them not to do it.  Naw.  No one REALLY believes in this He11 nonsense.  The reality would be unimaginable.


----------



## ambush80 (Jun 7, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Well........it is valid because you can’t. And that’s what’s keeping you up at night
> 
> BTW, go look up the definition of claim. If you’re going to stake the claim that God doesn’t exist, back it up with evidence if you want to prove it. Play by your rules  you said I had to have evidence to back up my claim that he does exist
> 
> I’f you’re not 100% positive then you don’t know.



Do you believe that Astrology is real?  Prove it's not.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 7, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Well........it is valid because you can’t. And that’s what’s keeping you up at night
> 
> BTW, go look up the definition of claim. If you’re going to stake the claim that God doesn’t exist, back it up with evidence if you want to prove it. Play by your rules  you said I had to have evidence to back up my claim that he does exist
> 
> I’f you’re not 100% positive then you don’t know.


What can be asserted without Evidence can be dismissed without Evidence.


Spotlite said:


> Well........it is valid because you can’t. And that’s what’s keeping you up at night
> 
> BTW, go look up the definition of claim. If you’re going to stake the claim that God doesn’t exist, back it up with evidence if you want to prove it. Play by your rules  you said I had to have evidence to back up my claim that he does exist
> 
> I’f you’re not 100% positive then you don’t know.



You cannot Prove nothing.
Nothing can only be disproved.


----------



## atlashunter (Jun 7, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Well........it is valid because you can’t. And that’s what’s keeping you up at night
> 
> BTW, go look up the definition of claim. If you’re going to stake the claim that God doesn’t exist, back it up with evidence if you want to prove it. Play by your rules  you said I had to have evidence to back up my claim that he does exist
> 
> I’f you’re not 100% positive then you don’t know.



It doesn't keep me up at night any more than it keeps you up at night that you can't prove Zeus and leprechauns don't exist. I don't waste my time trying to prove negatives. If these mythical figures don't exist then we should expect to not find a shred of evidence indicating they do. That expectation is met and that's enough to say they don't exist. If the evidence changes then of course the conclusion can change as well.


----------



## ky55 (Jun 7, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> No morals without God.



Hitler was an atheist.
And Stalin, Pol Pot, and various and sundry other mass murderers.


*


----------



## Israel (Jun 7, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> This one is particularly amusing because it really exposes what's going on in their minds.  They want to feel superior though they will say "It's not my will.  It's God's.  I'm just telling you what it says".  They're saying "Then you'll know I was right".
> 
> When I discuss in here I only want the believers to admit that their belief isn't logical.  To those that say "I understand my belief isn't logical but I just believe it" I really have no more argument.  I can't make people be rational especially if they know that they're not already.
> 
> But if I were a believer and I knew these people who I know and love are going to suffer for eternity I would claw my eyes out and pull out my hair.  I would beg them every day to repent.  I would never say "Just wait. You'll see."  Imagine saying that to someone you loved if they said they were going to light themselves on fire.  I would tackle them to the ground and I would scream in their faces until I was hoarse, begging them not to do it.  Naw.  No one REALLY believes in this He11 nonsense.  The reality would be unimaginable.



That "then you'll know I was right" thing runs deep. So deep as I have been barely able to apprehend in glimpses. On the one hand...it is almost too obvious...and endemic to man...the desire to show one's self right over what contradicts ones "rightness". But seeking its origins...its end (so to speak) in a man (if you can concede I am one ,no less nor more than any other) is something of myself, I have come to see I am not equipped to. I simply cannot, of myself, get past that place of desiring to be, and prove myself...right.
Either something _must appear_ in relief to it, and for it (for I cannot lie here, it is a very demanding taskmaster) or I am simply lost to it. It's ready to appear whenever _any contradiction_ is presented. And it is unrelenting in its demand. And again, unless something (in my experience _someone_) is shown its conqueror, I am left to suffer under its tenacious grasp.

Why Jesus? What interest? Fascination?  If one can even endure it...captivation? Really. What...and why? Because He conquered it. And presents a far greater, lovelier, and exceedingly more powerful state of being than laboring under the mere desire to prove one's self right. When examined...this thing of compulsion to prove rightness over another...has both diablolical roots...and if one watches studiously, has borne in every instance, the most hideous of fruit.

Do I fail and fall? Why lie about that? It's ridiculously obvious to anyone who has either met or known me for more than 2 minutes. The playing to, and for an audience that is also altogether laboring under its horrid ministration of stripes.

To think soberly...even here...among us all...men (for the most part, I believe)...what deeper and more grievous wounds have we (either witting or unwittingly) laid to those...we even say we love "the most"? Wives? Children? Friends? Efforts to show ourselves "right" that have led to a trampling of one another in seeking our own ascent to show and prove our own "rightness"? But, God knows, I don't accuse anyone without finding myself as the chiefest occupier of that. And despite what may appear to some as a handy "get out of he11 free card", I also find Jesus not willing here to grant me, of all, any _indulgence. _No. To the contrary His rightness has no place in it for winking.
It is, as lovely as it is, no less a severe discipline. To be brought unsparingly to eat the words one has served up to others in that he11acious of striving...and get a true taste of substance of self, is no less _His work_ in salvation, as He is all..._of salvation. _Repentance there, is found as it is...as fine and refined a gift...where once it may have seemed to be a command to expose...shamefulness. We are naked, all. And God has made that...perfect through Jesus Christ. The conscious One of all consciousness, and consciousness of all, and everyone before the word is formed in their mind or heart...forgives us...being once moved by only he11 itself.
By its conquer in one man.
To even begin to see how very wrong...the all right One was made willing to appear...is...captivating.


----------



## 660griz (Jun 7, 2018)

"Show me where the Bible condones that."
(Shown)
"You are just cherry picking the bad stuff."
Or,
"You aren't interpreting that correctly."


----------



## atlashunter (Jun 7, 2018)

660griz said:


> "Show me where the Bible condones that."
> (Shown)
> "You are just cherry picking the bad stuff."
> Or,
> "You aren't interpreting that correctly."



All the time with this one.


----------



## Spotlite (Jun 7, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> If the evidence changes then of course the conclusion can change as well.


That’s not the question though. Are you saying that you’re 100% positive that God doesn’t exist?

Yea I know the “we don’t believe in any god”......not believing is not an issue. But you pointed out many times that “if God exist, then this would happen”

My goal is not to convince you that he does. I want to know if you’re hanging your hat on stating the he doesn’t, or you just don’t believe that he does


----------



## red neck richie (Jun 7, 2018)

Who decides who is winning or losing? Who is the judge? Is there a score card? You will find out in the end. Peace to you all.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 7, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> That’s not the question though. Are you saying that you’re 100% positive that God doesn’t exist?
> 
> Yea I know the “we don’t believe in any god”......not believing is not an issue. But you pointed out many times that “if God exist, then this would happen”
> 
> My goal is not to convince you that he does. I want to know if you’re hanging your hat on stating the he doesn’t, or you just don’t not believe that he does


With all the available evidence, or in this case Literally the lack of evidence, I am 100% certain that the god of the bible as written in the bible and described a hundred million different ways by it's fans...does not exist.
I say it like that because I have honestly spent many years trying to convince myself of any gods existence and more importantly the existence of the god of the bible. The more I search the more I am convinced(which is totally now) that the god of the bible does not exist.

I am open to evidence to the contrary and urge any god that wants to set the record straight to contact me.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 7, 2018)

red neck richie said:


> Who decides who is winning or losing? Who is the judge? Is there a score card? You will find out in the end. Peace to you all.


When it's over it is over Richie. You won't be capable of knowledge.


----------



## red neck richie (Jun 7, 2018)

bullethead said:


> With all the available evidence, or in this case Literally the lack of evidence, I am 100% certain that the god of the bible as written in the bible and described a hundred million different ways by it's fans...does not exist.
> I say it like that because I have honestly spent many years trying to convince myself of any gods existence and more importantly the existence of the god of the bible. The more I search the more I am convinced(which is totally now) that the god of the bible does not exist.
> 
> I am open to evidence to the contrary and urge any god that wants to set the record straight to contact me.


Who is the Judge?


----------



## red neck richie (Jun 7, 2018)

bullethead said:


> When it's over it is over Richie. You won't be capable of knowledge.


Answer the question who is the judge?


----------



## red neck richie (Jun 7, 2018)

bullethead said:


> When it's over it is over Richie. You won't be capable of knowledge.


And you know this to be factual how? Perhaps you have interviewed people with near death experiences?


----------



## bullethead (Jun 7, 2018)

red neck richie said:


> Who is the Judge?


We are.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 7, 2018)

red neck richie said:


> And you know this to be factual how? Perhaps you have interviewed people with near death experiences?


Well Richie, nobody that is fully dead gives any interviews.


----------



## Spotlite (Jun 7, 2018)

bullethead said:


> What can be asserted without Evidence can be dismissed without evidence .





bullethead said:


> What can be asserted without Evidence can be dismissed without Evidence.
> 
> 
> You cannot Prove nothing.
> Nothing can only be disproved.



Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. 

Proving a negative - A negative claim is a colloquialism for an affirmative claim that asserts the non-existence or exclusion of something. Claiming that it is impossible to prove a negative is a pseudologic, because there are many proofs that substantiate negative claims in mathematics, science, and economics, including Arrow's impossibility theorem. There can be multiple claims within a debate. Nevertheless, whoever makes a claim carries the burden of proof regardless of positive or negative content in the claim.


----------



## red neck richie (Jun 7, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Well Richie, nobody that is fully dead gives any interviews.


I'm not talking about fully dead. Im talking about people that have been close to death  and lived? Have you heard what they have said?


----------



## bullethead (Jun 7, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
> 
> Proving a negative - A negative claim is a colloquialism for an affirmative claim that asserts the non-existence or exclusion of something. Claiming that it is impossible to prove a negative is a pseudologic, because there are many proofs that substantiate negative claims in mathematics, science, and economics, including Arrow's impossibility theorem. There can be multiple claims within a debate. Nevertheless, whoever makes a claim carries the burden of proof regardless of positive or negative content in the claim.


If you cannot prove the existence of what is claimed to be the ultimate truth. There is no use even trying to try to prove things that are only found in the imagination to not exist.


----------



## red neck richie (Jun 7, 2018)

bullethead said:


> If you cannot prove the existence of what is claimed to be the ultimate truth. There is no use even trying to try to prove things that are only found in the imagination to not exist.


Likewise?


----------



## bullethead (Jun 7, 2018)

red neck richie said:


> I'm not talking about fully dead. Im talking about people that have been close to death  and lived? Have you heard what they have said?


I've talked to one. I've read the research of others. Any that have claimed to see heaven or god was always whatever their religions  version was. People on their deathbed have described many many many things both religious and non. Both pro god and anti.

If you insist on only using the interviews that talk about the god you worship to confirm your needs and wishes....then we cannot go any further with this as you dismiss all the others as being not as real or just as good.

Remember near death is not dead. The brain is powerful beyond our understanding. We have gone over this many times. If you understood any of the conversations even a little bit you would not keep bringing it up as if it were the first time instead of the fifty-first.


----------



## Spotlite (Jun 7, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Do you believe that Astrology is real?  Prove it's not.


Astrology - do I believe it is real? No I do not believe it is real. Since I am not stating that astrology is not real, or that it does not exist, I am not making a claim so there is nothing to prove. I am simply saying I don't believe it is. 

If I were trying to convince or prove to myself or you that it was not real, I might say things like "if astrology was real, then astrology would have given me my hope"


----------



## bullethead (Jun 7, 2018)

red neck richie said:


> Likewise?


Listen,  if you want to compare your god to and lump in the same "can NOT disprove" categories as fairies, unicorns, monsters under the bed, flying spaghetti monsters, leprechauns, wookilars, etc etc etc....I am FINE with that.
I've had your god in there for a long time too.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 7, 2018)

When Christians are losing the argument #1054:

Have you ever talked to someone (read Christian) that had a near death experience?


----------



## Spotlite (Jun 7, 2018)

bullethead said:


> If you cannot prove the existence of what is claimed to be the ultimate truth. There is no use even trying to try to prove things that are only found in the imagination to not exist.


I agree........its not use to try. Fair enough.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 7, 2018)

Richie, this is as honest as I can be and as truthful as I can be over the internet.
I dream every night. Last night I had a dream where I was back in my old restaurant working the grill. I was knocking out orders as fast as I could. I was concocting food from ingredients that I never used. I was conversing with waitresses, literally calling them by first name and reading their order slips as if I knew them for 20 years...and I have never actually seen these people let alone worked with them before. Facial features, hair, body types, voices, handwriting etc ALL distinct and unique yet I have never seen them anywhere but inside that dream. My brain made it up. My brain filled in the intricate details. That dream, like many others was vivid and realistic and I was just in snooze mode.

I can't imagine the signals, chemical releases, and sensory overload that occurs when a body and mind is in stress from dying.


----------



## Spotlite (Jun 7, 2018)

An elderly rabbi was once on an airplane to Israel sitting next to a self-professed atheist. They were amicably chatting the whole trip.​Every now and then, the rabbi’s grandchild, sitting in another row, would come over to him, bringing him a drink, or asking if he could get anything to make him more comfortable. After this happened several times, the atheist sighed, “I wish my grandchildren would treat me with such respect. They hardly even say hello to me. What’s your secret?”​The rabbi replied: “Think about it. To my grandchildren, I am two generations closer to Adam and Eve, the two individuals made by the hand of God. So they look up to me. But according to the philosophy which you teach your grandchildren, you are two generations closer to being an ape.​So why should they look up to you?”​


----------



## bullethead (Jun 7, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> An elderly rabbi was once on an airplane to Israel sitting next to a self-professed atheist. They were amicably chatting the whole trip.​Every now and then, the rabbi’s grandchild, sitting in another row, would come over to him, bringing him a drink, or asking if he could get anything to make him more comfortable. After this happened several times, the atheist sighed, “I wish my grandchildren would treat me with such respect. They hardly even say hello to me. What’s your secret?”​The rabbi replied: “Think about it. To my grandchildren, I am two generations closer to Adam and Eve, the two individuals made by the hand of God. So they look up to me. But according to the philosophy which you teach your grandchildren, you are two generations closer to being an ape.​So why should they look up to you?”​


The moral of that story is if the Rabbi cannot understand that humans did not come from Apes he cannot be trusted to know anything else.


----------



## atlashunter (Jun 7, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> That’s not the question though. Are you saying that you’re 100% positive that God doesn’t exist?
> 
> Yea I know the “we don’t believe in any god”......not believing is not an issue. But you pointed out many times that “if God exist, then this would happen”
> 
> My goal is not to convince you that he does. I want to know if you’re hanging your hat on stating the he doesn’t, or you just don’t not believe that he does



I've never claimed 100% certainty. I don't know why you're so hung up on that.


----------



## atlashunter (Jun 7, 2018)

red neck richie said:


> Who decides who is winning or losing? Who is the judge? Is there a score card? You will find out in the end. Peace to you all.



The responses themselves show who has lost the argument and both sides know it.


----------



## atlashunter (Jun 7, 2018)

bullethead said:


> The moral of that story is if the Rabbi cannot understand that humans did not come from Apes he cannot be trusted to know anything else.



Humans didn't just come from apes. Humans _are_ apes.


----------



## Spotlite (Jun 8, 2018)

bullethead said:


> The moral of that story is if the Rabbi cannot understand that humans did not come from Apes he cannot be trusted to know anything else.



You know how it is when you`re killing time and letting atheist think they are winning........he was probably just reading another one of those scientific things off of the internet............

https://australianmuseum.net.au/humans-are-apes-great-apes


----------



## bullethead (Jun 8, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> You know how it is when you`re killing time and letting atheist think they are winning........he was probably just reading another one of those scientific things off of the internet............
> 
> https://australianmuseum.net.au/humans-are-apes-great-apes


You just proved the rabbi wrong.
Was Adam and Eve human?


----------



## Spotlite (Jun 8, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> I've never claimed 100% certainty. I don't know why you're so hung up on that.


Not hung up.............I am aware that you have claimed that you are not 100% certain / positive. But you sound certain in your comment below. 



> If these mythical figures don't exist then we should expect to not find a shred of evidence indicating they do. That expectation is met and that's enough to say they don't exist.



If you cant be certain that something is not there, you can only assume it isn't.


----------



## Spotlite (Jun 8, 2018)

bullethead said:


> You just proved the rabbi wrong.
> Was Adam and Eve human?


Evolution is the theory that you believe, not me


----------



## Israel (Jun 8, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Richie, this is as honest as I can be and as truthful as I can be over the internet.
> I dream every night. Last night I had a dream where I was back in my old restaurant working the grill. I was knocking out orders as fast as I could. I was concocting food from ingredients that I never used. I was conversing with waitresses, literally calling them by first name and reading their order slips as if I knew them for 20 years...and I have never actually seen these people let alone worked with them before. Facial features, hair, body types, voices, handwriting etc ALL distinct and unique yet I have never seen them anywhere but inside that dream. My brain made it up. My brain filled in the intricate details. That dream, like many others was vivid and realistic and I was just in snooze mode.
> 
> I can't imagine the signals, chemical releases, and sensory overload that occurs when a body and mind is in stress from dying.




And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom _his_ lord shall make ruler over his household, to give _them their_ portion of meat in due season?


Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe who is instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is a householder, who brings forth out of his treasure things new and old.


----------



## Israel (Jun 8, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> The responses themselves show who has lost the argument and both sides know it.



Men love contests. Have you ever seen this one?

http://www.cc.com/video-clips/xk7dyk/important-things-with-demetri-martin-passive-aggressive-race


----------



## WaltL1 (Jun 8, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> That’s not the question though. Are you saying that you’re 100% positive that God doesn’t exist?
> 
> Yea I know the “we don’t believe in any god”......not believing is not an issue. But you pointed out many times that “if God exist, then this would happen”
> 
> My goal is not to convince you that he does. I want to know if you’re hanging your hat on stating the he doesn’t, or you just don’t believe that he does



If the Atheist says "I don't believe God exists because it hasn't been proven that God exists"......  where does that fall in your 2 choices?
If the Atheist says "A god(God) doesn't exist because God hasn't been proven to exist"..... where does that fall in in your 2 choices?
And whats the difference between the 2 ?


----------



## WaltL1 (Jun 8, 2018)

red neck richie said:


> And you know this to be factual how? Perhaps you have interviewed people with near death experiences?


"Near death" and "when its over its over" are not the same.
The near death person is able to respond to your interview questions. The when its over its over person is probably going to be pretty tight lipped.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 8, 2018)

Israel said:


> And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom _his_ lord shall make ruler over his household, to give _them their_ portion of meat in due season?
> 
> 
> Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe who is instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is a householder, who brings forth out of his treasure things new and old.


And FogHorn LegHorn sayeth,
Stop, I say stop it boy, you’re doin’ alot of choppin’ but no chips are flyin’

Then The Leghorn said unto them,
Now that..I say that’s no way for a kid to be wastin’ his time, readin’ that long-haired gobbledegook


----------



## bullethead (Jun 8, 2018)

Christian losing an argument reply tactic #1.

Recite scripture.


----------



## atlashunter (Jun 8, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Not hung up.............I am aware that you have claimed that you are not 100% certain / positive. But you sound certain in your comment below.
> 
> 
> 
> If you cant be certain that something is not there, you can only assume it isn't.



I'm certain to a very high degree. There are many mythological creatures that I am certain don't exist. None of them with 100% certainty but pretty darn close to it.


----------



## ambush80 (Jun 8, 2018)

Israel said:


> That "then you'll know I was right" thing runs deep. So deep as I have been barely able to apprehend in glimpses. On the one hand...it is almost too obvious...and endemic to man...the desire to show one's self right over what contradicts ones "rightness". But seeking its origins...its end (so to speak) in a man (if you can concede I am one ,no less nor more than any other) is something of myself, I have come to see I am not equipped to. I simply cannot, of myself, get past that place of desiring to be, and prove myself...right.
> Either something _must appear_ in relief to it, and for it (for I cannot lie here, it is a very demanding taskmaster) or I am simply lost to it. It's ready to appear whenever _any contradiction_ is presented. And it is unrelenting in its demand. And again, unless something (in my experience _someone_) is shown its conqueror, I am left to suffer under its tenacious grasp.
> 
> Why Jesus? What interest? Fascination?  If one can even endure it...captivation? Really. What...and why? Because He conquered it. And presents a far greater, lovelier, and exceedingly more powerful state of being than laboring under the mere desire to prove one's self right. When examined...this thing of compulsion to prove rightness over another...has both diablolical roots...and if one watches studiously, has borne in every instance, the most hideous of fruit.
> ...



I don't believe Jesus rose from the dead.  I don't believe it's possible.


----------



## WaltL1 (Jun 8, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> I'm certain to a very high degree. There are many mythological creatures that I am certain don't exist. None of them with 100% certainty but pretty darn close to it.


I think when we say "not 100% certain", Christians view it as "doubt" while we are viewing it strictly from a mathematical point of view.


----------



## ambush80 (Jun 8, 2018)

red neck richie said:


> Who decides who is winning or losing? Who is the judge? Is there a score card? You will find out in the end. Peace to you all.



Will I be sorry?


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 8, 2018)

red neck richie said:


> Who decides who is winning or losing? Who is the judge? Is there a score card? You will find out in the end. Peace to you all.


We could ask Anthony Bourdain......oh wait.


----------



## ambush80 (Jun 8, 2018)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> We could ask Anthony Bourdain......oh wait.



Let that be a lesson to you non-believers.

If someone close to you said they were going to kill themselves would you intervene?  How hard? Do you try at least that hard to try to stop loved ones from going to He11?  If not, why not?


----------



## ky55 (Jun 8, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Will I be sorry?



Of course you will. 
Please refer back to post #14. 


*


----------



## bullethead (Jun 8, 2018)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> We could ask Anthony Bourdain......oh wait.


Yowwwwwww!


----------



## Tmpr111 (Jun 8, 2018)

bullethead said:


> With all the available evidence, or in this case Literally the lack of evidence, I am 100% certain that the god of the bible as written in the bible and described a hundred million different ways by it's fans...does not exist.
> I say it like that because I have honestly spent many years trying to convince myself of any gods existence and more importantly the existence of the god of the bible. The more I search the more I am convinced(which is totally now) that the god of the bible does not exist.
> 
> I am open to evidence to the contrary and urge any god that wants to set the record straight to contact me.




I always recommend reading Case for Christ (the author "was" a non-believer).  It's a very interesting read, and they recently did a movie on it too.


----------



## ambush80 (Jun 8, 2018)

Tmpr111 said:


> I always recommend reading Case for Christ (the author "was" a non-believer).  It's a very interesting read, and they recently did a movie on it too.



It wasn't the evidence that brought Strobel to Christ.  He had a personal revelation.  Christ pricked his heart.  Imagine presenting that kind of testimony to a Muslim.  Do you think they would believe Strobel and renounce Islam?  If a Muslim said they heard Muhammad speak to them would that convince you to renounce your Christian faith and follow Islam?  You see how ridiculous that sounds.  That's how BOTH of you sound to an atheist.  You get that, don't you?


----------



## bullethead (Jun 8, 2018)

Tmpr111 said:


> I always recommend reading Case for Christ (the author "was" a non-believer).  It's a very interesting read, and they recently did a movie on it too.


Not compelling enough for me. He bases his facts of off NT writings which are in themselves suspect.


----------



## ambush80 (Jun 8, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> It wasn't the evidence that brought Strobel to Christ.  He had a personal revelation.  Christ *****ed his heart.  Imagine presenting that kind of testimony to a Muslim.  Do you think they would believe Strobel and renounce Islam?  If a Muslim said they heard Muhammad speak to them would that convince you to renounce your Christian faith and follow Islam?  You see how ridiculous that sounds.  That's how BOTH of you sound to an atheist.  You get that, don't you?




Ha ha.  The censor needs a bit of tweaking.


----------



## Spotlite (Jun 8, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> 1. If the Atheist says "I don't believe God exists because it hasn't been proven that God exists" 2. If the Atheist says "A god(God) doesn't exist because God hasn't been proven to exist"





> whats the difference between the 2 ?



They are both the same if they are used in the context of stating or the reasoning of their dis-belief, even with confidence. Which is what defines Atheism - the absence of belief in the existence of deities. 

If either are used as "proof" to substantiate as their evidence, it conflicts with the following: 


> Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
> 
> Proving a negative - A negative claim is a colloquialism for an affirmative claim that asserts the non-existence or exclusion of something. Claiming that it is impossible to prove a negative is a pseudologic, because there are many proofs that substantiate negative claims in mathematics, science, and economics, including Arrow's impossibility theorem. There can be multiple claims within a debate. Nevertheless, whoever makes a claim carries the burden of proof regardless of positive or negative content in the claim.


----------



## atlashunter (Jun 8, 2018)

"His ways are not our ways."


----------



## bullethead (Jun 8, 2018)

> Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
> 
> Proving a negative - A negative claim is a colloquialism for an affirmative claim that asserts the non-existence or exclusion of something. Claiming that it is impossible to prove a negative is a pseudologic, because there are many proofs that substantiate negative claims in mathematics, science, and economics, including Arrow's impossibility theorem. There can be multiple claims within a debate. Nevertheless, whoever makes a claim carries the burden of proof regardless of positive or negative content in the claim.



This is a Logically Fallacious Argument from Ignorance.

Arguing from Ignorance

Explanation

Arguments from ignorance infer that a proposition is true from the fact that it is not known to be false. Not all arguments of this form are fallacious; if it is known that if the proposition were not true then it would have been disproven, then a valid argument from ignorance may be constructed. In other cases, though, arguments from ignorance are fallacious.

Example

(1) No one has been able to disprove the existence of God.
Therefore:
(2) God exists.

This argument is fallacious because the non-existence of God is perfectly consistent with no one having been able to prove God’s non-existence.


----------



## Israel (Jun 8, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> I don't believe Jesus rose from the dead.  I don't believe it's possible.



I don't think the apostles were very convinced either...until they were.

What a _seemingly_ odd foundation the Lord has chosen. And I know He is not done doing things that appear very strange.


----------



## ambush80 (Jun 8, 2018)

Israel said:


> I don't think the apostles were very convinced either...until they were.
> 
> What a _seemingly_ odd foundation the Lord has chosen. And I know He is not done doing things that appear very strange.



One of my favorites.

"I've seen it.  I just can't show it to you".


----------



## atlashunter (Jun 8, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> They are both the same if they are used in the context of stating or the reasoning of their dis-belief, even with confidence. Which is what defines Atheism - the absence of belief in the existence of deities.
> 
> If either are used as "proof" to substantiate as their evidence, it conflicts with the following:



If you can find a single instance of me claiming proof or knowledge with absolute certainty that there are no gods then I'll donate $100 to the church or charity of your choice. What I have said is that the evidence or the lack thereof is exactly what we would expect to see in a world absent deities. The bible says prayer in Jesus name works. If there is a god and if the bible is true then that claim should be demonstrably true. If there is no god or if the bible is false that claim should be demonstrably false and it is demonstrably false. We should expect that preachers who go baptizing people in waters with crocs might get eaten. That's what we see. It doesn't prove that there is no god but it's what we would expect if there wasn't one and not what we would expect if the bible were true. Many similar instances of this.

Now to bring home the point, just how confident are you that Poseidon doesn't exist? 100%? Less? Where is your proof? I'm equally confident that neither Poseidon nor Yahweh exist based on equally lacking evidence for both. Not 100% but the probability in their favor is so miniscule as to be just shy of zero. Now if you have good verifiable evidence that actually makes a convincing case against the existence of Poseidon that wouldn't apply equally to Yahweh, I'd love to see it.


----------



## Spotlite (Jun 8, 2018)

bullethead said:


> This is a Logically Fallacious Argument from Ignorance.
> 
> Arguing from Ignorance
> 
> ...


 _Arguing from Ignorance - is a fallacy in formal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or a proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true. _


----------



## atlashunter (Jun 8, 2018)

"How could something come from nothing?"


----------



## atlashunter (Jun 8, 2018)

"You need the guidance of the holy spirit to understand."


----------



## Israel (Jun 8, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> One of my favorites.
> 
> "I've seen it.  I just can't show it to you".



Don't worry...I'll believe you.


----------



## WaltL1 (Jun 8, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> They are both the same if they are used in the context of stating or the reasoning of their dis-belief, even with confidence. Which is what defines Atheism - the absence of belief in the existence of deities.
> 
> If either are used as "proof" to substantiate as their evidence, it conflicts with the following:





> because there are many proofs that substantiate negative claims in mathematics, science, and economics, including Arrow's impossibility theorem.


And whats the big difference between math, science, economics and God that allows one to "prove a negative" with them that cant be done with a god(God)?


----------



## WaltL1 (Jun 8, 2018)

Israel said:


> Don't worry...I'll believe you.


I wouldn't. He seems pretty shady to me.


----------



## Spotlite (Jun 8, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> And whats the big difference between math, science, economics and God that allows one to "prove a negative" with them that cant be done with a god(God)?


Faith.

With math, science and economics........ measurable. You can flip a quarter 500 times and it land on heads 500 times and have confidence that there is no tales.

God is immeasurable. Something immeasurable cannot be proven or disproven. I cant prove to you that there is a God, but I can have faith to believe it. You cant prove to me that there is not a God, but you can be confident that there is not one.


----------



## Spotlite (Jun 8, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> If you can find a single instance of me claiming proof or knowledge..


I don't recall saying that you have.......you don't have a case of the guilty dog barking do you



atlashunter said:


> Now to bring home the point, just how confident are you that Poseidon doesn't exist? 100%? Less? Where is your proof? Now if you have good verifiable evidence that actually makes a convincing case against the existence of Poseidon that wouldn't apply equally to Yahweh, I'd love to see it.



Wow.........I actually had to look up Poseidon........I hadn't forgotten what that was................There is a point there.

The only thing I can offer you is simply........... I don't believe it. I don`t believe in Bigfoot, pink purple flying ponies, or the tooth fairy. I don't try to rule them out, don't search for articles of sinking ships to blame on Poseidon, don`t look for articles to blame missing goats on Bigfoot, hadn't looked for any articles about some unidentified flying pony looking objects, and didn't second guess the reason I had to place $2 under my sons pillow if the tooth fairy existed.

I just don`t believe in them and could care less if they did or didn't exist and don't care if you believe me or not.......................that case does equally apply to God................but for some reason, God simply must be proven to not exist in order to complete that "confidence" that resulted from most likely.


----------



## atlashunter (Jun 8, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I don't recall saying that you have.......you don't have a case of the guilty dog barking do you
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And the ancient Greeks didn't concern themselves with Yahweh as much as the more prominent gods in their culture for the same reason. When the believers in Yahweh dwindle the way the believers in Poseidon did then Yahweh will be just as relegated to the dust bin of history. It is we who give gods their relevance, not the other way around.

If anyone is insisting that god must be proven not to exist to be confident he doesn't that would be you. Like I said before, I'm no more out to prove god doesn't exist than any other figure from mythology. The absence of evidence which we are promised by the same book that proclaims his existence in the first place speaks for itself. What I find more interesting is why some make a special exemption for certain figures even while acknowledging the case for them is no better than the case for any of the others.


----------



## ambush80 (Jun 8, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> One of my favorites.
> 
> "I've seen it.  I just can't show it to you".





Spotlite said:


> Faith.
> 
> With math, science and economics........ measurable. You can flip a quarter 500 times and it land on heads 500 times and have confidence that there is no tales.
> 
> God is immeasurable. Something immeasurable cannot be proven or disproven. I cant prove to you that there is a God, but I can have faith to believe it. You cant prove to me that there is not a God, but you can be confident that there is not one.



Boom goes the dynamite.

What's YOUR proof?


----------



## ambush80 (Jun 8, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> And the ancient Greeks didn't concern themselves with Yahweh as much as the more prominent gods in their culture for the same reason. When the believers in Yahweh dwindle the way the believers in Poseidon did then Yahweh will be just as relegated to the dust bin of history. It is we who give gods their relevance, not the other way around.
> 
> If anyone is insisting that god must be proven not to exist to be confident he doesn't that would be you. Like I said before, I'm no more out to prove god doesn't exist than any other figure from mythology. The absence of evidence which we are promised by the same book that proclaims his existence in the first place speaks for itself. What I find more interesting is why some make a special exemption for certain figures even while acknowledging the case for them is no better than the case for any of the others.



Then we will classify the Bible properly as Mythology.


----------



## Spotlite (Jun 8, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Boom goes the dynamite.
> 
> What's YOUR proof?


Lol that one went over you like whoosh!!!

Keep flipping those quarters and eventually it will land on tails!!! Even the weather man gets burned on most likely Lol.


----------



## Spotlite (Jun 8, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> What I find more interesting is why some make a special exemption for certain figures even while acknowledging the case for them is no better than the case for any of the others.



You are for freedom of choice on most any topic brought up. Lately I’ve shifted to agreeing with you on a lot of topics that allow people such freedom to decide for themselves how they want to live and or end their lives.

Yet somehow when it comes to allowing people the freedom of choice to believe in whatever “figure” they choose, that choice is challenged with something such as you bringing home the point.


atlashunter said:


> Now to bring home the point, just how confident are you that Poseidon doesn't exist? 100%? Less? Where is your proof? I'm equally confident that neither Poseidon nor Yahweh exist based on equally lacking evidence for both. Not 100% but the probability in their favor is so miniscule as to be just shy of zero. Now if you have good verifiable evidence that actually makes a convincing case against the existence of Poseidon that wouldn't apply equally





Not exactly sure who asked the question recently along the lines of  “why can’t I believe that there’s something bigger than me and not believe in God”

Turn that around,  why I can’t I believe in God without making a case against Poseidon?


----------



## ambush80 (Jun 8, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Lol that one went over you like whoosh!!!
> 
> Keep flipping those quarters and eventually it will land on tails!!! Even the weather man gets burned on most likely Lol.



So what do you do, assume that he's always wrong?  If the weather man says thunderstorms do you act as if he's 100% wrong?  If the weather man says "The dead will rise from their graves." do you assume that he's right?  It seems we're drilling down on why we should believe something or not.  Why should I believe that Jesus rose from the dead like you do?


----------



## bullethead (Jun 8, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> You are for freedom of choice on most any topic brought up. Lately I’ve shifted to agreeing with you on a lot of topics that allow people such freedom to decide for themselves how they want to live and or end their lives.
> 
> Yet somehow when it comes to allowing people the freedom of choice to believe in whatever “figure” they choose, that choice is challenged with something such as you bringing home the point.
> 
> ...


Ponder this for a minute or two.
Think about all the reasons why the ancient Greeks KNEW and believed wholeheartedly that not only Poseidon existed but all the other gods they worshiped existed too. And, all the stories(testaments) of how those gods were involved in their every day lives literally interacting with the people and also both for and against the "good" gods vs the "bad" gods.
Now think about all the reasons that you can think of as to why those stories make for pretty cool reading but also the reasons that you can come up with to dismiss those stories and gods.

The people who do not believe in your god use all those same reasons but take it one god further than you do.


----------



## Spotlite (Jun 8, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Ponder this for a minute or two.
> Think about all the reasons why the ancient Greeks KNEW and believed wholeheartedly that not only Poseidon existed but all the other gods they worshiped existed too. And, all the stories(testaments) of how those gods were involved in their every day lives literally interacting with the people and also both for and against the "good" gods vs the "bad" gods.
> Now think about all the reasons that you can think of as to why those stories make for pretty cool reading but also the reasons that you can come up with to dismiss those stories and gods.
> 
> The people who do not believe in your god use all those same reasons but take it one god further than you do.



 I have no issues with that. 

The reason that I dismiss the rest is I don’t believe in them. I didn’t need anything else to determine that.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 8, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I have no issues with that.
> 
> The reason that I dismiss the rest is I don’t believe in them. I didn’t need anything else to determine that.


How would you handle a person that tells you that the ONLY way for your happy eternal life after death was for you to acceptl their god(s) as lord and savior and you must believe in those gods in order to do so? What if they counter any different point of view conversation that you converse with them with a verse from their religious book and the threats of an eternal punishment if you do not convert?


----------



## bullethead (Jun 8, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I have no issues with that.
> 
> The reason that I dismiss the rest is I don’t believe in them. I didn’t need anything else to determine that.


And, you were not brought up to believe in them.
In my case, like many others, I was raised in a strong Christian family in a strong Christian town in a strong Christian county in a strong Christian state in a strong Christian nation.
It was easy to not believe in gods that I knew nothing about.
It was not so easy to question everything that I have been told and taught about the god that I was raised upon.


----------



## Spotlite (Jun 8, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> So what do you do, assume that he's always wrong?  If the weather man says thunderstorms do you act as if he's 100% wrong?  If the weather man says "The dead will rise from their graves." do you assume that he's right?  It seems we're drilling down on why we should believe something or not.  Why should I believe that Jesus rose from the dead like you do?


No I don’t assume anything. I have sunglasses and a rain jacket in the truck.


----------



## Spotlite (Jun 8, 2018)

bullethead said:


> How would you handle a person that tells you that the ONLY way for your happy eternal life after death was for you to acceptl their god(s) as lord and savior and you must believe in those gods in order to do so? What if they counter any different point of view conversation that you converse with them with a verse from their religious book and the threats of an eternal punishment if you do not convert?


The same way I do all of the time with a specific group that knocks on the door from time to time. Sit on the porch and shoot the bull a little. They go into scripture a little but they soon realize that I’m not biting. As they’re leaving I shake their hand, take their pamphlets and let them go on about their business. I don’t ever ask them to prove anything. It goes in one ear and out the other. 



bullethead said:


> And, you were not brought up to believe in them.
> In my case, like many others, I was raised in a strong Christian family in a strong Christian town in a strong Christian county in a strong Christian state in a strong Christian nation.
> It was easy to not believe in gods that I knew nothing about.
> It was not so easy to question everything that I have been told and taught about the god that I was raised upon.


That’s me. Was taken to church when I was 2 and been there since. So it’s easy for me also to not believe in the other gods. I have had no reason to question my faith though. So I don’t quite connect with that part.


----------



## atlashunter (Jun 8, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> You are for freedom of choice on most any topic brought up. Lately I’ve shifted to agreeing with you on a lot of topics that allow people such freedom to decide for themselves how they want to live and or end their lives.
> 
> Yet somehow when it comes to allowing people the freedom of choice to believe in whatever “figure” they choose, that choice is challenged with something such as you bringing home the point.
> 
> ...



It’s not the freedom to believe that is at issue but the rationality of the belief.


----------



## Spotlite (Jun 8, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> the rationality of the belief.


Specifically,  how is that the issue?


----------



## red neck richie (Jun 8, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I've talked to one. I've read the research of others. Any that have claimed to see heaven or god was always whatever their religions  version was. People on their deathbed have described many many many things both religious and non. Both pro god and anti.
> 
> If you insist on only using the interviews that talk about the god you worship to confirm your needs and wishes....then we cannot go any further with this as you dismiss all the others as being not as real or just as good.
> 
> Remember near death is not dead. The brain is powerful beyond our understanding. We have gone over this many times. If you understood any of the conversations even a little bit you would not keep bringing it up as if it were the first time instead of the fifty-first.


<iframe width="640" height="360" src="



" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>


----------



## atlashunter (Jun 8, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Specifically,  how is that the issue?



It’s a belief in a mythical figure. A fantasy that people claim with certainty as true.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Jun 8, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> It’s a belief in a mythical figure. A fantasy that people claim with certainty as true.




even if everything you said was truth, how does it affect you, and why do you feel the need to make sure that everyone else believes as you do?


----------



## Spotlite (Jun 8, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> It’s a belief in a mythical figure. A fantasy that people claim with certainty as true.



For someone that supports total freedom................that is a problem for you.........how?


----------



## bullethead (Jun 8, 2018)

NE GA Pappy said:


> even it everything you said was truth, how does it affect you, and why do you feel the need to make sure that everyone else believes as you do?


Many times it starts as a discussion between like minded individuals who do not believe in gods with believers jumping in to defend their god against the contents within the conversations.
It snowballs from there.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Jun 9, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Many times it starts as a discussion between like minded individuals who do not believe in gods with believers jumping in to defend their god against the contents within the conversations.
> It snowballs from there.



many times it devolves into a conversation belittling the believer and demeaning them for believing.  If you and XXXX want to have a discussion about your beliefs, fine.  When it comes to attacking others and their beliefs because the atheist wants to educate them on the fallacy of their belief system, it doesn't help matters at all.


----------



## WaltL1 (Jun 9, 2018)

NE GA Pappy said:


> many times it devolves into a conversation belittling the believer and demeaning them for believing.  If you and XXXX want to have a discussion about your beliefs, fine.  When it comes to attacking others and their beliefs because the atheist wants to educate them on the fallacy of their belief system, it doesn't help matters at all.


This is a AAA forum. Its purposely designed for people with opposing views about religion. While I agree that can happen without belittling and demeaning the assumption is that if you are going to voluntarily participate its up to you to have a thick skin.
And as far as your blanket statement about Atheists being belittling and demeaning ask a moderator how many Atheists vs. how many Christians get banned from the religious forums for personal attacks.
The numbers arent going back up your claim. In fact its going to show the opposite.


----------



## Israel (Jun 9, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I wouldn't. He seems pretty shady to me.



Really...who isn't...at least a bit?

And I don't mean that at all in a facetious nor condemning way. I don't know of any believer who has not confessed to contending with shadows...even within himself.

Does that sound like a haughty statement? As though I am saying "Even believers (who are perfect!) still have to deal with things"? Sort of condescending? Sort of like "well, _we who are better_ understand... tut tut?"

God forbid!

Look...if you can...at the scriptures. Even look specifically to the areas around the resurrection! Nobody believed anybody...for the most part. For _almost_ each and every disciple it took the seeing of Jesus alive to convince them. One we know believed when he saw the empty tomb coupled with a report...but one even stated, despite his brother's testimony, "I will not believe unless I put my hand into his wounds"! (And was later invited to do so...)

How are we so different? In fact it is precisely a resistance...and a very staunch resistance...that even itself bears a testimony. We don't trust one another with this thing. It's like we can't at all...it's just too big a thing for every man, for any man...to trust to merely another...man like himself. Men who are "shadowy".

My brother Bullet bangs this drum relentlessly, and I don't think I can fault his reasoning if it be:

"Men will say and do just about anything, and everything,  to win you to their side"

How right that is...but also how very cynical a thing it feeds if left to itself.
Who can end up being trusted...without looking for the hook behind the bait? Wives? (What's she "getting out of this?") Children? ("Of course they love me...look what I've done for them!) Friends? (We just exchange in areas of common interest...but...what happens when I disagree?) Yeah...cynicism can come from what at first appears even a "healthy skepticism". And if it is followed to it's most logical end must lead to "why do I even trust myself and my own knowing...when I finally see how much I do lie to myself" (if one is ever granted to see that)

We are all to some greater, or lesser extent...shadowy. And the cynic who says "all men lie...except I" Well, one may see just how very shadowy that is.

No, this resurrection matter is very big. It's bigness is attested to by how much it resistance there is to it. There's a spiritual current moving when one speaks of it, when one hears of it. The one speaking knows (or will soon learn) I am no less than speaking of a thing that tells every man "his reality is all of upside down" and the hearer also, no less senses (even if the consciousness may not find these precise words) "I am being told my reality is all of upside down".

But here's the thing likewise often overlooked and misunderstood. Until it is not. The speaker, by speaking...the preacher, by preaching...has placed himself into the assent of being "all turned upside down"...and we often resist it just as much as the most staunch reviler! We are so very much alike in this thing...we discover "no man likes having his cheese moved!"

And the so called believer, unless he re-finds the grace that the resurrection attests to...can end up becoming just as bitter in soul...just as very cynical and sour...as the one he accuses of being so...for not "being a believer".

Oh! The believer may want to "own the gift"...and see himself as a beneficent carrier, like a Santa Clause...doling from his own bag...gifts to the poor and blind...by which he comforts himself "I am not like these!"

"hey look everybody...I am a_ giver_!"

Do you doubt? I don't. How don't I doubt? Because I have seen it worked out in my laboratory relentlessly. Too many times. "Why won't they take my gift...what's wrong..._with them_"? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
"then, I won't like them! (for _making me_ feel this way!)" ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha (I don't blame anyone for not hearing the laughter)

My own cheese...is getting moved...and I don't like it...no, not one bit!
This gospel thing is supposed to make me "something", and I am dealing with no less frustration than I have ever known! What gives? Where's the peace? Where's the joy? Where's the....?

Where's JESUS! It all and always has come down to this (and O! so thankfully so!) "They call me liar, Lord! They call me trickster, Lord! They call me fool, Lord! Sic 'em Lord!" ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha (the laughter here is almost ongoing, but for your sake I will limit it to but a very few ha ha's)

Yes. I am the one most in need of being upended. And the gospel of Jesus Christ is both a gift, and the means to it...especially for me. How can I not continue to speak of it...of Him...when I see how perfectly it works (He works!)...and gets a man who is so _very very serious_ about having his own life touched, at all, can be made to join in such uproarious laughter?

I'm all for the guy who needs to poke his hand into the wounds...how can a man like me...not be?


----------



## atlashunter (Jun 9, 2018)

NE GA Pappy said:


> even if everything you said was truth, how does it affect you, and why do you feel the need to make sure that everyone else believes as you do?



Add this to the list. “Why do you need everyone else to believe as you do?” This is rich coming from a christian. I’m less concerned with what people believe than with how they got there. Irrationality and widespread superstition impacts us all to one extent or another. The historical record shows that it is costly for people to hold beliefs that don’t comport with reality.


----------



## atlashunter (Jun 9, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> For someone that supports total freedom................that is a problem for you.........how?



For someone that supports the freedom to disagree how is it a problem for you that others disagree? I’m not putting a gun to anybody’s head and telling them what they must believe. I’m discussing their ideas and the basis of those ideas in a forum dedicated to that purpose.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 9, 2018)

NE GA Pappy said:


> many times it devolves into a conversation belittling the believer and demeaning them for believing.  If you and XXXX want to have a discussion about your beliefs, fine.  When it comes to attacking others and their beliefs because the atheist wants to educate them on the fallacy of their belief system, it doesn't help matters at all.


When you throw fuel on a fire it gets hotter.


----------



## Spotlite (Jun 9, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> For someone that supports the freedom to disagree how is it a problem for you that others disagree?


Disagreeing is perfectly fine and acceptable.



> What I find more interesting is why some make a special exemption for certain.





> It’s not the freedom to...........that is at issue but the rationality of



For the things that we choose or choose not to..............don't we all


----------



## atlashunter (Jun 9, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Disagreeing is perfectly fine and acceptable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I hope not. All gods are on a level playing field for me.


----------



## WaltL1 (Jun 9, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Add this to the list. “Why do you need everyone else to believe as you do?” This is rich coming from a christian. I’m less concerned with what people believe than with how they got there. Irrationality and widespread superstition impacts us all to one extent or another. The historical record shows that it is costly for people to hold beliefs that don’t comport with reality.





> “Why do you need everyone else to believe as you do?” This is rich coming from a christian.


I cant figure out how anybody with an understanding of the true, actual history and doctrine of Christianity doesn't see the blatant hypocrisy it requires to make that judgement on somebody else.
And its got nothing to do with believing or not believing.


----------



## ky55 (Jun 9, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I cant figure out how anybody with an understanding of the true, actual history and doctrine of Christianity doesn't see the blatant hypocrisy it requires to make that judgement on somebody else.
> And its got nothing to do with believing or not believing.




It’s a secret conspiracy. 
The Ancient Order Of Evangelical Atheists is behind it.


----------



## hummerpoo (Jun 9, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Add this to the list. “Why do you need everyone else to believe as you do?” This is rich coming from a christian. I’m less concerned with what people believe than with how they got there. Irrationality and widespread superstition impacts us all to one extent or another. The historical record shows that it is costly for people to hold beliefs that don’t comport with reality.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 9, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


>


 as seen above


----------

