# Constantine And The Sabbath



## Lowjack

Constantine and the Sabbath

Constantine, one of the men that brought the church of Jesus Christ into pagan worship and forbade them from keeping the Sabbath (God's commandments & holy seasons).

Article; By Rick Aharon Chaimberlin
http://www.ngabo.org/prophetic/constantine.htm


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## centerpin fan

Lowjack said:


> Constantine corrupts the church of Christ and draws it away from keeping the Sabbath.



The Apostle Paul beat him to it:

"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day." - Col 2:16


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## hobbs27

centerpin fan said:


> The Apostle Paul beat him to it:
> 
> "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day." - Col 2:16



Right again centerpin.

Acts 20:7
 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.


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## Lowjack

hobbs27 said:


> Right again centerpin.
> 
> Acts 20:7
> And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.



That's so that people could keep the Sabbath , Paul is not Christ.
"Anyone who breaks the Torah and teaches others not to keep the Torah will be very small in the Kingdom of G-d"christ.


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## Artfuldodger

It all sounds way to political and a good reason to keep government separate from religion. I follow no man's creed nor do I put much faith in Councils. 
I'm upset that we don't celebrate Rosh Ḥodesh anymore. I love celebrations.


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## hobbs27

Lowjack said:


> , Paul is not Christ.
> .



I forgot about your problem with Paul, so lets look at Christs' example.

Mark 2:23-28

23 And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.

24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?

25 And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?

26 How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?

27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.


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## gemcgrew

Lowjack said:


> That's so that people could keep the Sabbath , Paul is not Christ.
> "Anyone who breaks the Torah and teaches others not to keep the Torah will be very small in the Kingdom of G-d"christ.


Paul told the Galatians that your teaching is no better than witchcraft. He affirmed the believer's total freedom from the law. I fear no curse from the law. 

"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:" (Galatians 3:13)
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:1)


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## gordon 2

Lowjack said:


> That's so that people could keep the Sabbath , Paul is not Christ.
> "Anyone who breaks the Torah and teaches others not to keep the Torah will be very small in the Kingdom of G-d"christ.



Why does everyone think he/she will get a mansion in the Kingdom. Do servants live in the Lord's castle or the outhouse? Upstaires or downstairs.?

The least in the kingdom of heaven are the cooks... With what little they have they try to season our foods. Which is  alot more than the rest of us do with much and... by reading scripture as a cannon.


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## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Paul told the Galatians that your teaching is no better than witchcraft. He affirmed the believer's total freedom from the law. I fear no curse from the law.
> 
> "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:" (Galatians 3:13)
> "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:1)



Amen!!


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## mtnwoman

gordon 2 said:


> Why does everyone think he/she will get a mansion in the Kingdom. Do servants live in the Lord's castle or the outhouse? Upstaires or downstairs.?
> 
> The least in the kingdom of heaven are the cooks... With what little they have they try to season our foods. Which is  alot more than the rest of us do with much and... by reading scripture as a cannon.



I'll gladly cook for the sheeples!!


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## Lowjack

gemcgrew said:


> Paul told the Galatians that your teaching is no better than witchcraft. He affirmed the believer's total freedom from the law. I fear no curse from the law.
> 
> "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:" (Galatians 3:13)
> "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:1)



Might be a great error to believe Paul over Christ,


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## barryl

Lowjack said:


> Might be a great error to believe Paul over Christ,


Where did Paul get his orders from ?


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## Ronnie T

None of the apostles ever taught a church to observe a sabbath.
They all quiet did the opposite.

John 4:21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” 25 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us.” 26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”


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## gemcgrew

Lowjack said:


> Might be a great error to believe Paul over Christ,


Lowjack, God has an elect remnant among the Jews that he will save, who will be grafted into Christ by faith.  Salvation is promised only to those who look to Christ in faith. No one was ever saved by keeping the law. When you put the law in the place of grace, I must reject it.

"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." (Romans 11:5)
"And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again." (Romans 11:23)
"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:" (Romans 11:25,26)


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## 1gr8bldr

The history of Christianity is ugly. We should know the truth, yet it is so bad that on the other hand, it is hard to deal with the knowledge of it.


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## gemcgrew

1gr8bldr said:


> The history of Christianity is ugly. We should know the truth, yet it is so bad that on the other hand, it is hard to deal with the knowledge of it.


The history of Christianity is beautiful. God works all things after the counsel of his will. 

“He increaseth the nations, and destroyeth them: he enlargeth the nations, and straiteneth them again.”(Job 12:23) 

“When he giveth quietness, who then can make trouble? and when he hideth his face, who then can behold him? whether it be done against a nation, or against a man only.”(Job 34:29) 

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”(Isaiah 45:7)

“Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: ”(Isaiah 46:9,10)

Perspective!


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## Artfuldodger

"And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again." (Romans 11:23)

That must really be confusing for someone who believes in eternal salvation. Here is a Jewish man who follows God and the Law. Jesus comes and he doesn't believe he is the Messiah thus losing his salvation. Later he sees the error of his ways and starts believing. He had salvation, lost it, and gained it back.
Maybe we should just say we are saved by God's grace before or after Jesus came to the Earth.


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## mtnwoman

1gr8bldr said:


> The history of Christianity is ugly. We should know the truth, yet it is so bad that on the other hand, it is hard to deal with the knowledge of it.



I think the entire history of man is ugly. You don't see women marching across the world trying to conquer nations do ya, killing people to take over their bit of turf?


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## mtnwoman

Artfuldodger said:


> "And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again." (Romans 11:23)
> 
> That must really be confusing for someone who believes in eternal salvation. Here is a Jewish man who follows God and the Law. Jesus comes and he doesn't believe he is the Messiah thus losing his salvation. Later he sees the error of his ways and starts believing. He had salvation, lost it, and gained it back.
> Maybe we should just say we are saved by God's grace before or after Jesus came to the Earth.



I know what you're sayin'.

Don't forget MrDodger, the Jews were 'temporarily' blinded, like Paul, just for a longer period of time. Don't worry, God will take care of them, just like He did Paul.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> "And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again." (Romans 11:23)
> 
> That must really be confusing for someone who believes in eternal salvation. Here is a Jewish man who follows God and the Law. Jesus comes and he doesn't believe he is the Messiah thus losing his salvation. Later he sees the error of his ways and starts believing. He had salvation, lost it, and gained it back.
> Maybe we should just say we are saved by God's grace before or after Jesus came to the Earth.



Oh my...


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> That must really be confusing for someone who believes in eternal salvation. Here is a Jewish man who follows God and the Law. Jesus comes and he doesn't believe he is the Messiah thus losing his salvation. Later he sees the error of his ways and starts believing. He had salvation, lost it, and gained it back.
> Maybe we should just say we are saved by God's grace before or after Jesus came to the Earth.


Not confusing at all. He never had salvation. Moses was a precursor to Christ. The Jews did not believe Moses. If they had , they would have believed Jesus. Moses told them about Jesus and they were commanded to receive him.


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Not confusing at all. He never had salvation. Moses was a precursor to Christ. The Jews did not believe Moses. If they had , they would have believed Jesus. Moses told them about Jesus and they were commanded to receive him.



Well at least they had a choice. God would not command someone to do something if they weren't capable to follow the commandment.

What about "grafted in again?" sounds like they were "in" at some point but were "out" when they refused to believe Jesus was the Messiah?


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## 1gr8bldr

gemcgrew said:


> The history of Christianity is beautiful. God works all things after the counsel of his will.
> 
> “He increaseth the nations, and destroyeth them: he enlargeth the nations, and straiteneth them again.”(Job 12:23)
> 
> “When he giveth quietness, who then can make trouble? and when he hideth his face, who then can behold him? whether it be done against a nation, or against a man only.”(Job 34:29)
> 
> “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”(Isaiah 45:7)
> 
> “Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: ”(Isaiah 46:9,10)
> 
> Perspective!


Do you not know about all the killings  4th and 5th century. Hitler said  refering to persucuting the jews "I am only doing what the Christians have been doing all along"


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## Artfuldodger

John 5:47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?"

So this verse is saying that every Jew born from the time of Moses to the time of Jesus never received salvation? That is way more than a temporary blindness.


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## hobbs27

t





1gr8bldr said:


> Do you not know about all the killings  4th and 5th century. Hitler said  refering to persucuting the jews "I am only doing what the Christians have been doing all along"



Wasnt those killings from the Catholic church, not so much from the Anabaptist or waldenes?


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> John 5:47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?"
> 
> So this verse is saying that every Jew born from the time of Moses to the time of Jesus never received salvation? That is way more than a temporary blindness.



Salvation is only of Christ! And whats up with this temporary blindness?


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## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> Don't forget MrDodger, the Jews were 'temporarily' blinded, like Paul, just for a longer period of time. Don't worry, God will take care of them, just like He did Paul.


Don't forget, "But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."
Whether a person is Jew or Gentile, if he is not in Christ, he is not one of God's people. Does not matter if he observes all the Jewish rituals and ceremonies.


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## gemcgrew

1gr8bldr said:


> Do you not know about all the killings  4th and 5th century. Hitler said  refering to persucuting the jews "I am only doing what the Christians have been doing all along"


Do you not know that the greatest act of injustice in human history was determined and performed by God? "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

Do you see a good and perfect purpose?


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Salvation is only of Christ! And whats up with this temporary blindness?



But weren't there some saints whose souls were secure but not saved in the Old Testament? Salvation is of God's grace. He can forgive whomever. Didn't Jesus forgive a woman in Luke? He wasn't on the cross yet. Luke 7:48-50


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> But weren't there some saints whose souls were secure but not saved in the Old Testament? Salvation is of God's grace. He can forgive whomever. Didn't Jesus forgive a woman in Luke? He wasn't on the cross yet. Luke 7:48-50



Yes, Job knew his redeamer lived.Remember the witch of endor raised Samuel from a sleep in paradise, the same place Christ and the thief on the cross went the day they died.
 That was the old earth, before the Gospel, and people died in the hope that the Savior would come soon.We live in the knowledge that he has already come.
 Jesus is the way! The only way!


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## Artfuldodger

If Old Testament believers didn’t know the Name of Jesus, what was required of them to be saved? What Abraham did was to cast himself totally on the Lord and trust him. He did not know how God was going to save him, but he trusted that God would find a way. We know now that the way that God found to save Abraham was through Jesus Christ and His death and resurrection. However, Abraham did not know that, he just trusted blindly that God would find a way. The important thing is that the faith he had is the same faith as ours. We may have more knowledge now about how faith works, but still the core of our faith today is coming to God as our only hope and looking to him for shelter.

http://loveintruth.com/amf-docs/otsaints.htm


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## Artfuldodger

I said grace earlier, now I want to add faith.


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## Lowjack

Artfuldodger said:


> If Old Testament believers didn’t know the Name of Jesus, what was required of them to be saved? What Abraham did was to cast himself totally on the Lord and trust him. He did not know how God was going to save him, but he trusted that God would find a way. We know now that the way that God found to save Abraham was through Jesus Christ and His death and resurrection. However, Abraham did not know that, he just trusted blindly that God would find a way. The important thing is that the faith he had is the same faith as ours. We may have more knowledge now about how faith works, but still the core of our faith today is coming to God as our only hope and looking to him for shelter.
> 
> http://loveintruth.com/amf-docs/otsaints.htm



Very Good !
Most people think God's grace began at the cross and are still confuse as to the purpose of The Law.again I'll repeat the Law was not given for salvation , it was given as "sanctification".


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## 1gr8bldr

gemcgrew said:


> Do you not know that the greatest act of injustice in human history was determined and performed by God? "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."
> 
> Do you see a good and perfect purpose?


You evidently don't know what happened back then. No way God ordained that Christians kill Christians . That people be tied up, forced to take the Wine/bread of the Lord's supper by stuffing down their throats


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## gemcgrew

1gr8bldr said:


> You evidently don't know what happened back then. No way God ordained that Christians kill Christians . That people be tied up, forced to take the Wine/bread of the Lord's supper by stuffing down their throats


Why not, for a good purpose? I would say that it is clearly taught in the Bible that God's will determines everything. Nothing exists and nothing happens without God actively willing it and causing it to happen or exist. We are talking about almighty God, creator of all things. There is not one thing that exists or happens that he has not decreed and caused.

"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:" (Isaiah 46:10)

"Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father." (Matthew 10:29)

"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." (Proverbs 16:4)

"And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" (Daniel 4:35)


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## gemcgrew

Lowjack said:


> Most people think God's grace began at the cross and are still confuse as to the purpose of The Law.again I'll repeat the Law was not given for salvation , it was given as "sanctification".



"Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 5:20,21)

"Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." (Galatians 3:19-25)


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## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> Why not, for a good purpose? I would say that it is clearly taught in the Bible that God's will determines everything. Nothing exists and nothing happens without God actively willing it and causing it to happen or exist. We are talking about almighty God, creator of all things. There is not one thing that exists or happens that he has not decreed and caused.
> "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:" (Isaiah 46:10)
> 
> "Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father." (Matthew 10:29)
> 
> "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." (Proverbs 16:4)
> 
> "And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" (Daniel 4:35)



And I will continue to say that you are incorrect in how you believe God uses His almighty power.
It isn't a matter of how much power the God of all things has.  It's a matter of whether God "allows" things to happen outside his constraint.


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## Lowjack

Ronnie T said:


> None of the apostles ever taught a church to observe a sabbath.
> They all quite did the opposite.
> 
> John 4:21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” 25 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us.” 26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”



85 Times the Apostles are mentioned keeping the Sabbath and teaching;
http://www.eliyah.com/85times.html


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Do you not know that the greatest act of injustice in human history was determined and performed by God? "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."
> 
> Do you see a good and perfect purpose?



It's kinda creepy to think about it that way. How would you explain that to someone who has never heard about God & Jesus?


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## Artfuldodger

So there is nothing in the New Covenant about following and keeping God's commandments? “If you love me, you will keep my commandments" is one verse I remember. Keeping commandments was never about salvation but the commandments are still here. 
Mt 19:16-19 "And behold, one came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?" And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." He *said to Him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Now we could also look at keeping Jesus' commandments:
    Jn 15:10-12 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love. "These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.
    1 Cor 14:37 "If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord's commandment." 
    Mt 28:20 "teaching them to observe all that I commanded you". 
    John 13:34 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.                                                                                                     2 John 5 says, "And now I ask you, lady, not as writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another."           
 Matthew 22:36-40 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" And He said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' "This is the great and foremost commandment. "The second is like it, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."


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## Artfuldodger

Maybe we need to discuss the purpose of "commandments" and if there is a difference between God's commandments and Jesus' commandments.

I'll start to say it has something to do with a "relationship." Why don't I cheat on my wife? Answer, I'm having a relationship with her that involves love. I'm not doing it because we live  under the vows/commandments. If i break a marriage vow it might not break our marriage but it would hurt our relationship.


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> It's kinda creepy to think about it that way. How would you explain that to someone who has never heard about God & Jesus?


I wouldn't.


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> I wouldn't.



Yeah the cross story bothers some of them too. You can sneak that in later.

Or did you mean you don't witness?


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## 1gr8bldr

gemcgrew said:


> Why not, for a good purpose? I would say that it is clearly taught in the Bible that God's will determines everything. Nothing exists and nothing happens without God actively willing it and causing it to happen or exist. We are talking about almighty God, creator of all things. There is not one thing that exists or happens that he has not decreed and caused.
> 
> "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:" (Isaiah 46:10)
> 
> "Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father." (Matthew 10:29)
> 
> "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." (Proverbs 16:4)
> 
> "And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" (Daniel 4:35)


 I'm out, no card to play


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe we need to discuss the purpose of "commandments" and if there is a difference between God's commandments and Jesus' commandments.
> .



They are one in the same.


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> Yeah the cross story bothers some of them too. You can sneak that in later.
> 
> Or did you mean you don't witness?


I just don't see that as part of our conversation, when talking to someone who has never heard of God or Jesus.


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## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> It isn't a matter of how much power the God of all things has.  It's a matter of whether God "allows" things to happen outside his constraint.


Do you believe God is active in what he "allows" or "constrains"? How are you differing from what I said?


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Do you not know that the greatest act of injustice in human history was determined and performed by God? "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."
> 
> Do you see a good and perfect purpose?



Maybe it was more like suicide by cop than God killing Jesus.

I do see your point. God knew Jesus would die on the cross beforehand. That was the plan from the beginning. Jesus knew he would die on the cross too.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> They are one in the same.



Jn 15:10-12 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love. "These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.

My commandments - My Father's commandments

New covenant commandments-Old covenant commandments


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## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> None of the apostles ever taught a church to observe a sabbath.
> They all quiet did the opposite.
> 
> John 4:21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” 25 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us.” 26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”





Lowjack said:


> 85 Times the Apostles are mentioned keeping the Sabbath and teaching;
> http://www.eliyah.com/85times.html



As I said, "The apostles never taught the early church to observe the sabbath".  
And just because they went to a synagogue doesn't mean they observed those sabbath rites.
The sysagogue was the perfect place to teach about Jesus.  The scriptures so much as states that.

Again, I say, "An apostle never instructed a gentile believer in Christ to observe the rites of the Sabbath as part of their discipleship to Jesus".
Actually, they never instructed a Jewish Christian to continue observing those rites.
.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Jn 15:10-12 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love. "These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.
> 
> My commandments - My Father's commandments
> 
> New covenant commandments-Old covenant commandments



As I said, they are one in the same.

The only difference I see is the OT commandments was with man, contained in the ark covenant.
Research Obed-Edom and how he was blessed by the presence of the ark, and he would not leave it.

Where is the ark covenant today?--------- Where is the law?

 The Holy Spirit  ----------------                                      Within man

 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> As I said, they are one in the same.
> 
> The only difference I see is the OT commandments was with man, contained in the ark covenant.
> Research Obed-Edom and how he was blessed by the presence of the ark, and he would not leave it.
> 
> Where is the ark covenant today?--------- Where is the law?
> 
> The Holy Spirit  ----------------                                      Within man
> 
> But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.



The law is written in our hearts and the Holy Spirit helps us keep it.
What does it mean "Writing my laws in their hearts?"
What laws are to be written in our hearts?

From an article I agree with about the Law:
   Some church members have been confused about God's laws and ask "What are the laws, or commandments, that are to be written in our hearts?" Jesus Christ made it clear that the 10 commandments, which God gave to Moses as the basis, the foundation, and framework of the old covenant and all of His law,  must be kept and obeyed, in order to enter into eternal life, Mat. 19:17-21. It is made clear that the 10 commandments are summed up as God's two great commandments, that teaches His elect  how to love God, and to love one's neighbor, and one's  brother, as himself. Christ gave this as the answer for what is God's great commandments. God's commandment is to love God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and to love one's neighbor as himself, and Christ said on these two commandments hang all the law and prophets, Mat. 22:37-40. Christ tells us, that all of God's law give by His prophets, that magnifies, details, expounds, defines, and directs one, how   to love God and to love one's neighbor as himself, is to be kept, obeyed, and written  in one's heart. "Love works no ill to his neighbor, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law," Rom.13:10. 

     God says "if you love me, keep my commandments," John 14:15, 21. "By this we know that we love the children (brethren) of God, when we love God and keep His commandments," I John 5:2. "For this is the love of God that we keep His commandments, and His commandments are not grievous," I John 5:3. "And this is love, that we walk  after His commandments," II John 6. "If we love one another, God dwells in us, and His love is perfected in us," I  John 4:12. "God is love, and he that dwells in love dwells in God, and God in him. Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He is, so are we in this world, " I John 4:16-17. "He that keeps His commandments dwells in Him and He in him."  "And hereby we know that He abides in us by the Spirit which He has given us," I John 3:24.

This is all because there is a very erroneous and corrupt concept and mis-understanding in teaching that has been  accepted, taught, and passed down, about the Pharisees of  the Scriptures. The false teaching is believing, and accepting the teaching, that the Pharisees were strict commandment keepers, which is a lie, and because of  all Christ's condemnation, He leveled against the Pharisees, pastors believe it is justified, to call any strict, complete righteous commandment keeper of the body of Jesus Christ, a Pharisee, and a legalist and unloving. Many pastors continually  preach that the Pharisees were strict commandment keepers of God's law. This is another plain lie. This is an erroneous belief and false understanding and accepting as truth that the Pharisees were very precise, exact, complete and strict keepers of God's commandments. This is a false teaching and cannot be found anywhere in the Bible! 

     The Plain Truth is, the Pharisees were not strict keepers of God's law and commandments, but were gross transgressors and violators of God's laws! 
http://donimon.org/writingmylaws.html

The couple who wrote this are from Kentucky and don't belong to a Church Denomination and keep the Sabbath.
http://donimon.org/aboutus.html


----------



## mtnwoman

Artfuldodger said:


> What does it mean "Writing my laws in their hearts?"
> What laws are to be written in our hearts?



I think those old laws are strictly for the Jews....and perhaps their traditions.

The laws that are written in my heart are the ones you posted....as a gentile.

I believe converted Jews carry both laws in their hearts. But I believe they are released from the old law, even though it remains in them. Hope that makes sense.

ie perhaps they keep the sabbath, etc. If they are convicted to do so, who's to say they are wrong?


----------



## gemcgrew

All are under condemnation and Jews are no better off than Gentiles. The Jews do not obey the law, they break it. They break it so often that Paul said "For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written."(Romans 2:24)

"They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."(Romans 3:12)

"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."(Romans 3:19,20)


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> All are under condemnation and Jews are no better off than Gentiles. The Jews do not obey the law, they break it. They break it so often that Paul said "For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written."(Romans 2:24)
> 
> "They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."(Romans 3:12)
> 
> "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."(Romans 3:19,20)



That's why we have Jesus.


----------



## StriperAddict

mtnwoman said:


> I believe converted Jews carry both laws in their hearts. But I believe they are released from the old law, even though it remains in them. Hope that makes sense.


 
Well said. 
The old schoolmaster is out (dead),
and the Living One is in.  

Relating to God by way of law will bring one's identity to works and frustration;
whereas relating to God by faith/grace (His work alone) will redeem one's identity to a New Creation; holy, blameless and justified.


----------



## StriperAddict

1gr8bldr said:


> I'm out, no card to play


 
I'll try,

While I may not agree w John MaCarthur on some points, his take on "Is God Responsible for Evil?" is pretty well said.


----------



## Artfuldodger

StriperAddict said:


> I'll try,
> 
> While I may not agree w John MaCarthur on some points, his take on "Is God Responsible for Evil?" is pretty well said.



That was a very good article and how I feel about evil and events happening randomly. I don't believe God is a micro-manager and we have free will to do good and bad.
I wished MacAuthur would have brought up Acts 4:28 that we were discussing.
Acts4:28 "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."
Maybe the greatest act of injustice in human history wasn't determined and performed by God? Maybe this was a blessing for sinners, this fulfillment that God performed.


----------



## gemcgrew

StriperAddict said:


> While I may not agree w John MaCarthur on some points, his take on "Is God Responsible for Evil?" is pretty well said.



I have enjoyed some of MacArthur's messages and writings but I find his theology to be inconsistent from one week to the next.

In this article he says that God is not responsible for evil. He then says, "God is certainly sovereign over evil. There's a sense in which it is proper even to say that evil is part of His eternal decree. He planned for it. It did not take Him by surprise. It is not an interruption of His eternal plan. He declared the end from the beginning, and He is still working all things for His good pleasure (Isaiah 46:9-10).

But God's role with regard to evil is never as its author. He simply permits evil agents to work, then overrules evil for His own wise and holy ends. Ultimately He is able to make all things-including all the fruits of all the evil of all time-work together for a greater good (Romans 8:28).



MacArthur appears to think that he is in some way defending God from his very creation.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> I have enjoyed some of MacArthur's messages and writings but I find his theology to be inconsistent from one week to the next.
> 
> In this article he says that God is not responsible for evil. He then says, "God is certainly sovereign over evil. There's a sense in which it is proper even to say that evil is part of His eternal decree. He planned for it. It did not take Him by surprise. It is not an interruption of His eternal plan. He declared the end from the beginning, and He is still working all things for His good pleasure (Isaiah 46:9-10).
> 
> But God's role with regard to evil is never as its author. He simply permits evil agents to work, then overrules evil for His own wise and holy ends. Ultimately He is able to make all things-including all the fruits of all the evil of all time-work together for a greater good (Romans 8:28).
> 
> 
> 
> MacArthur appears to think that he is in some way defending God from his very creation.



I picked up on that too but I also pick up on that in the Bible. It appears that sometimes we have free will and some times we don't. It would be easier to believe one or the other.
This is the same way a read commandments and grace in the New Testament. One verse will say grace then another will say follow my commandments.
The way I reconcile is a balance of free will, predestination, grace, faith, hope, love, and obedience to follow the new testament commandments.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> I have enjoyed some of MacArthur's messages and writings but I find his theology to be inconsistent from one week to the next.
> 
> In this article he says that God is not responsible for evil. He then says, "God is certainly sovereign over evil. There's a sense in which it is proper even to say that evil is part of His eternal decree. He planned for it. It did not take Him by surprise. It is not an interruption of His eternal plan. He declared the end from the beginning, and He is still working all things for His good pleasure (Isaiah 46:9-10).
> 
> But God's role with regard to evil is never as its author. He simply permits evil agents to work, then overrules evil for His own wise and holy ends. Ultimately He is able to make all things-including all the fruits of all the evil of all time-work together for a greater good (Romans 8:28).
> 
> 
> 
> MacArthur appears to think that he is in some way defending God from his very creation.



I don't know where or why the above scripture were included in that discussion cause those scripture don't have anything to do with the text.
.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> I don't know where or why the above scripture were included in that discussion cause those scripture don't have anything to do with the text.
> .


Of course they do. He is discussing God's sovereignty.


----------



## Ronnie T

My understanding of the Lord God is like my understanding of the ocean.
I know a lot about the ocean.  I love the beach.  I love to wade out into it and enjoy it.  Ask me questions about the ocean.... I can answer a lot of them.

But the ocean is far to great and immense for me to understand all the things I think I understand.

In the same way, I accept God.  I trust God and believe Him and can explain some things to you about the Creator God.  But you better remember this one thing, I am His creation, not His manager.  God does what He wants, and then He commands me to do what He wants.  
And as they say on Duck Dynasty, "Bingo" "That's it".


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> As I said, they are one in the same.
> 
> The only difference I see is the OT commandments was with man, contained in the ark covenant.
> Research Obed-Edom and how he was blessed by the presence of the ark, and he would not leave it.
> 
> Where is the ark covenant today?--------- Where is the law?
> 
> The Holy Spirit  ----------------                                      Within man
> 
> But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.



Jeremiah said "after those days" meaning after Jesus. the Ark of the Covenant disappeared way before Jesus came so did the Temple of Solomon. At that time the Commandments and temple worship was surely still needed. It's not like the Ark disappeared when the law was put on our inward parts.

Gill's commentary on that verse:
I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; not the ceremonial law, which was abolished when this covenant was made; but rather the moral law still in force, 
The Septuagint version reads it in the plural number, "laws"; and so does the apostle, Hebrews 8:10; and may design the ordinances of the Gospel,


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> Of course they do. He is discussing God's sovereignty.



That's my point.
God doesn't say he's the ruler of evil!


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> My understanding of the Lord God is like my understanding of the ocean.
> I know a lot about the ocean.  I love the beach.  I love to wade out into it and enjoy it.  Ask me questions about the ocean.... I can answer a lot of them.
> 
> But the ocean is far to great and immense for me to understand all the things I think I understand.
> 
> In the same way, I accept God.  I trust God and believe Him and can explain some things to you about the Creator God.  But you better remember this one thing, I am His creation, not His manager.  God does what He wants, and then He commands me to do what He wants.
> And as they say on Duck Dynasty, "Bingo" "That's it".



I agree at some point we just have to "let the mystery be."
But it is interesting to study the ins and outs of the Bible and how we all read it differently. 
I still wonder what amount of study is needed for our salvation beyond John 3:16?
Election, Trinity, Baptism, Communion, Repentance, Speaking in tongues? It's all interesting, and  how much or what is  in "rightly dividing the truth?"


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> That's my point.
> God doesn't say he's the ruler of evil!


If God does not rule, he is not sovereign.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> If God does not rule, he is not sovereign.



Of coarse he does!

Matt 12:22 Then a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute was brought to Jesus, and He healed him, so that the mute man spoke and saw. 23 All the crowds were amazed, and were saying, “This man cannot be the Son of David, can he?” 24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.”

25 And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand? 27 If I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? For this reason they will be your judges. 28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29 Or how can anyone enter the strong man’s house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.

The Unpardonable Sin

30 He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.
31 “Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit. 34 You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. 35 The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil. 36 But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”


----------



## Ronnie T

1John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;


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## gemcgrew

I am not following you here, unless you are arguing with yourself. God rules over evil. That is how we know that Romans 8:28 is true.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> That's my point.
> God doesn't say he's the ruler of evil!


Let me back up a bit. God doesn't say he's the ruler of evil?

"Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun."(2 Samuel 12:11,12)

Why did David pray this? "Incline not my heart to any evil thing, to practise wicked works with men that work iniquity: and let me not eat of their dainties."(Psalm 141:4)


----------



## Ronnie T

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. 16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. 18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.


----------



## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> 1John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;





gemcgrew said:


> Let me back up a bit. God doesn't say he's the ruler of evil?
> 
> "Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun."(2 Samuel 12:11,12)  **Now include what James said: *"Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
> 
> Why did David pray this? "Incline not my heart to any evil thing, to practise wicked works with men that work iniquity: and let me not eat of their dainties."(Psalm 141:4)





Ronnie T said:


> James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. 16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. 18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.



You come to terms with all the verses in blue and you'll come to terms with the sovereignty of God that He wishes us to understand.  And maybe rather than a one-eyed view of God's rule, you'll be able to discuss the fullness of what's before us and how God "allows" it, but doesn't produce it.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> You come to terms with all the verses in blue and you'll come to terms with the sovereignty of God that He wishes us to understand.  And maybe rather than a one-eyed view of God's rule, you'll be able to discuss the fullness of what's before us and how God "allows" it, but doesn't produce it.


"Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun."

"O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance."

"Behold, the name of the LORD cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire:
And his breath, as an overflowing stream, shall reach to the midst of the neck, to sift the nations with the sieve of vanity: and there shall be a bridle in the jaws of the people, causing them to err."


----------



## Ronnie T

So, we have found a conflict in the Bible!
.


----------



## Ronnie T

I've known 8 or 9 people that held you narrow view of God's use of His control in the world.
And I'll tell you, all of them left that narrow view before their deaths.
And I suspect you will also.  You'll come to terms with it.
.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> So, we have found a conflict in the Bible!
> .


I do not see a conflict, I see the sovereign God of the Bible that does whatsoever he pleases in accordance with his will. He does it in such a way that he is Right, Good and Holy.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> I've known 8 or 9 people that held you narrow view of God's use of His control in the world.
> And I'll tell you, all of them left that narrow view before their deaths.
> And I suspect you will also.  You'll come to terms with it.
> .


I have been brought to terms with it! Perhaps a narrow view is required for a narrow gate.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> I do not see a conflict, I see the sovereign God of the Bible that does whatsoever he pleases in accordance with his will. He does it in such a way that he is Right, Good and Holy.



How do you come to terms with the "power of Satan?"
Is he an adversary of God or Man or a tool God uses?


----------



## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> I've known 8 or 9 people that held you narrow view of God's use of His control in the world.
> And I'll tell you, all of them left that narrow view before their deaths.
> And I suspect you will also.  You'll come to terms with it.
> .



Wow.  Not sure if you meant it the way it comes across or not Ronnie...but I'd say that that is one of the most condescending prideful posts I've read in here in a while.


----------



## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> Wow.  Not sure if you meant it the way it comes across or not Ronnie...but I'd say that that is one of the most condescending prideful posts I've read in here in a while.



Believe me it isn't prideful.  Just something that I've observed in my personal life.
It's my impression that Gem is a great Christian.  Sure seems to be.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> How do you come to terms with the "power of Satan?"


I believe the Bible, that is how. Only God is self existing and everything else owes and relies upon God for existence. God actively sustains all. Knowing that God is all powerful and all knowing, we know that God is immensely more powerful than a created Satan. Knowing that God is Holy, Righteous and Good, we know that God has a holy, righteous and good purpose for Satan.

In regards to created beings(Satan,demons,reprobates), Paul gives us at least one example of that purpose in Romans 9:22,23 "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,"



Artfuldodger said:


> Is he an adversary of God or Man or a tool God uses?


In any of those roles, God has a good purpose for Satan. Consider Luke 22:31,32 "And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." Do you see a good purpose here?


----------



## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> Believe me it isn't prideful.



I gotcha...just came across the wrong way to me...specifically this sentence.



Ronnie T said:


> And I suspect you will also.  You'll come to terms with it.





Okay...back to the topic de jour.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew;7705932

In any of those roles said:


> Satan hath desired to have you[/COLOR], that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." Do you see a good purpose here?



But was it God who tempted, or was it Satan?  
Did God allow the temptation, or did God create the temptation?


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> But was it God who tempted, or was it Satan?
> Did God allow the temptation, or did God create the temptation?


Why would it be offensive to you, if for a holy, righteous and good purpose?


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Believe me it isn't prideful.  Just something that I've observed in my personal life.
> It's my impression that Gem is a great Christian.  Sure seems to be.


Ronnie, I truly was not offended by your comment. I deal with this on an almost daily basis.


----------



## gemcgrew

rjcruiser said:


> Wow.  Not sure if you meant it the way it comes across or not Ronnie...but I'd say that that is one of the most condescending prideful posts I've read in here in a while.


I was glad he found 8 or 9 people that viewed God in his sovereignty. I was saddened that they apparently died with a lesser view of God.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Does Satan ask God for permission to do evil or does he get daily orders from God for what evil God wants him to perform?

Whe God does or allows evil, is it always through Satan or can he just make man do it himself?


----------



## StriperAddict

gemcgrew said:


> Why would it be offensive to you, if for a holy, righteous and good purpose?


 
I doubt a believer has any issue with _allowing_ for a purpose... any action,
but it is an entirely different matter to accuse God of initiating the evil.  In that scripture, God didn't tempt (consistent with James 1:13), but Satan did.  Even Paul said it was wise not to be "ignorant of his (satan's) schemes.  
Why would Paul care, if every device of Satan has a God kind of outcome?


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> Ronnie, I truly was not offended by your comment. I deal with this on an almost daily basis.



Thank you for saying that. I'm really glad to hear that.


----------



## StriperAddict

Artfuldodger said:


> Does Satan ask God for permission to do evil or does he get daily orders from God for what evil God wants him to perform?
> 
> Whe God does or allows evil, is it always through Satan or can he just make man do it himself?


 
Art, let the scripture speak for itself... God doesn't "MAKE man" sin... "But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by _his own lust_." James 1:14
The power of sin is resident in our bodies, our flesh... as an agent of him (satan) who is NOT omnipresent.  We will battle the desires of our flesh, by way of the Holy Spirit and God's power, daily until we are home.
Make no mistake on this...  
If God makes us sin, then He would be unjust, and the salvation given freely from the cross is null and void!


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> Does Satan ask God for permission to do evil or does he get daily orders from God for what evil God wants him to perform?
> 
> Whe God does or allows evil, is it always through Satan or can he just make man do it himself?



It's my understanding that Satan doesn't have the power to "make" man do anything.

Satan didn't have the power to "make" Job do or think anything.  God "allowed" Satan to temp Job and Job, through faith in God, stood up to Satan.  Job's life was all but destroyed, but God blessed Job through it.
Now, I'm thinking that Gem will disagree with what I've said......


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## gemcgrew

StriperAddict said:


> I doubt a believer has any issue with _allowing_ for a purpose... any action,
> but it is an entirely different matter to accuse God of initiating the evil.  In that scripture, God didn't tempt (consistent with James 1:13), but Satan did.


Satan did, and God created Satan for a purpose, and God's purpose is holy, righteous and good. Again, Satan is not self existent. 


StriperAddict said:


> Even Paul said it was wise not to be "ignorant of his (satan's) schemes.
> Why would Paul care, if every device of Satan has a God kind of outcome?


That is how Paul knew that "all things work together for good". "All things" would include Satan's actions.


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## StriperAddict

gemcgrew said:


> Satan did, and God created Satan for a purpose, and God's purpose is holy, righteous and good. Again, Satan is not self existent.
> 
> That is how Paul knew that "all things work together for good". "All things" would include Satan's actions.


 
I agree, because your answer does NOT make God as the AUTHOR or INITIATOR of temptation & evil.
And the Rom 8:28 verse is the balance... of the equation of evil, not declaring God to be it's source, but certainly allowing God to use all things for the good to them that love Him.


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## Artfuldodger

What can Satan accomplish going after a Christian?


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## StriperAddict

Artfuldodger said:


> What can Satan accomplish going after a Christian?


Keeping men from the truth of God's love, something he no longer has a "right" to any longer...

He's a liar and the father of lies...  he "goes after" Christians because they were created in the image of the Almighty.
As one who once had great favor in the very throne room of the Almighty ... satan was kicked out because of his pride & iniquity, 
thus he hates THAT image of God in man, and seeks to keep it from being redeemed. He rages against the cross and the love of God.

A jealously thing perhaps!


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> What can Satan accomplish going after a Christian?


Nothing but good! It is God's purpose for the perfection of a believer. James said "My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing." Satan serves God's perfect purpose.


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## gemcgrew

StriperAddict said:


> I agree, because your answer does NOT make God as the AUTHOR or INITIATOR of temptation & evil.


I do not have an issue with God being the "Author" or "Initiator". Only God is self existent. "All things are of God" and so we know that God has a holy, righteous and good purpose in all things. I do not see why there is an issue here.


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